# Just cannot seem to get along with my wife



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

I am posting this here really just to get my thoughts out there. I hesitate to say 'I need to vent' because I am not angry with her; I am more confused and sad than anything.

It seems my wife and I cannot go more than 5 days without getting into major arguments. In between the major arguments, we have the typical small things that come up, but the frequency of the big arguments is what really gets to me. She says it is normal for couples and she expects them. I feel like we have these big arguments too often. What do you think is 'typical'.

Last Tuesday we had pretty big argument, and could not come to a resolution, so we kinda let it go and moved on. After that, we had a good Thanksgiving and have even been talking about how nice things have been between us the last few days.

Then today happened. She and I work together and things can get stressful there. Today she ended up snapping at me at work, which took me a bit by surprise. In the past, she has asked that when she does something to upset me, I should talk to her about it then instead of letting it linger and build up resentment over time.

So, tonight, thinking about her advice and what happened today, as we were making dinner she asked me what was on my mind (she could see it on my face). Instead of keeping it in, I told her how I was feeling, which in turn, started yet another argument where she was calling me names, saying she just cannot deal with me any more, and that sometimes I just need to know when to keep my mouth shut about things.

I told her that I was simply doing what she asked, that when something was on my mind to bring it up. She said my timing was bad and I need to learn when some things are a big deal and others are not.

I told her that in the past, I kept the way I was feeling quiet because this is exactly what happens, and that her blowing up like this only makes me want to keep my feelings quiet again. I told her that it is difficult for me to know what her rules are about bringing up whats on my mind. She said that she cannot give me a script and that I just need to listen to her and learn when it is appropriate to bring up things and when it is not.

I am very frustrated. In our argument last Tuesday, she wanted me to stop 'stockpiling' things that she's done to upset me, and to talk about them as they happen. Yet I did that today and it turns into a huge argument.

On the plus side, she finally agrees that we need counseling due to our lack of communication (among other issues), and has agreed to go with me. She says that it makes her very sad that we need to see a counselor not even 3 months after being married.

Almost three years walking on eggshells with her... it is exhausting sometimes.

OK - let me know what I can do to make this better. As always, I am open to my shortcomings in the relationship, so I look forward to your constructive criticism.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Have you read up on BPD? "Walking on eggshells" is a typical description of how people behave when their significant others have high BPD behaviors...


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

technovelist said:


> Have you read up on BPD? "Walking on eggshells" is a typical description of how people behave when their significant others have high BPD behaviors...


You've mentioned it before in another thread of mine. She really fits the description pretty well, but obviously I am not qualified to make the diagnosis.

She tells me she is not the problem, that I am... you hear this enough times and you begin to believe it.

I try to explain that she and I both have our part in this. She is less-inclined to believe that.


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

How's the sex? When was the last time you spanked her?

Sure, this may seem odd, but I'm going to think out side the box here and maybe you just need to give her some of the good stuff, something that will leave her satisfied, something that will get some of that respect back.

You know the respect she had for you when you 1st met!


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

the guy said:


> How's the sex? When was the last time you spanked her?
> 
> Sure, this may seem odd, but I'm going to think out side the box here and maybe you just need to give her some of the good stuff, something that will leave her satisfied, something that will get some of that respect back.
> 
> You know the respect she had for you when you 1st met!


Typically the sex is good, but I am finding out recently that she wants me to be more dominating and rough, so I think you are on the right track.

See this thread if you are interested in reading more about that:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/302594-beginnings-resentment-3.html


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

breathedeep said:


> You've mentioned it before in another thread of mine. She really fits the description pretty well, but obviously I am not qualified to make the diagnosis.
> 
> She tells me she is not the problem, that I am... you hear this enough times and you begin to believe it.
> 
> I try to explain that she and I both have our part in this. She is less-inclined to believe that.


Oops, sorry. I am active on a lot of threads and sometimes don't remember what I've posted already for a given poster's issues...


----------



## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

I would stay detach for now until you see a counselor and perhaps she needs to see a therapist, which sounds likely at the moment.

Nope, what you are describing is actually unhealthy .

Adults can communicate while children lose control and act out.


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

The arguments, it's called the crazy cycle.

Listen to this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK8lvLY4yn4


----------



## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

technovelist said:


> Oops, sorry. I am active on a lot of threads and sometimes don't remember what I've posted already for a given poster's issues...


There are a few cluster B personality disorders and sometimes they overlap. Problem is, we all have those characteristics, but for those with PD they are out of average proportions. 

There's a lot of material out there, most of these can't be medicated, and some don't respond well to therapy. But if can figure out what you are dealing with, you can gain some perspective and some coping mechanisms. Worth looking into. If you know what to look for, it's easier to not let her get to you when she's like that.

I agree with technovelist that she seems to have some BPD traits. or maybe some NPD :lack of remorse or empathy. Eg: Wanting OP to just drop it instead of a sincere apology. Not "getting" that OP deserved to be upset, entitlement.


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

At least she has agreed to counseling. That's a beginning. Don't let her roll over you when you are discussing something. She is expecting you to be a mind reader with all that crap about 'knowing when to bring things up'.

Three years of walking on eggshells and you still marry her. Three months married and you're not even questioning the wisdom of that action. Why are you so determined to make this work? You made a bad choice - admit it and get on with your life.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

technovelist said:


> Oops, sorry. I am active on a lot of threads and sometimes don't remember what I've posted already for a given poster's issues...


No worries, tech. Your help is greatly appreciated.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Mr.Fisty said:


> I would stay detach for now until you see a counselor and perhaps she needs to see a therapist, which sounds likely at the moment.
> 
> Nope, what you are describing is actually unhealthy .
> 
> Adults can communicate while children lose control and act out.


I have tried detaching in the past and she tells me I am being mentally abusive and manipulative by being cold and acting like our issues don't bother me. I've had to do it in the past with her as a self-preservation tactic, as well as to just keep the peace and not cause any additional fighting. Maybe I am not 'detaching' properly.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

aine said:


> The arguments, it's called the crazy cycle.
> 
> Listen to this
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK8lvLY4yn4


It definitely causes me to question my own sanity.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

sixty-eight said:


> There are a few cluster B personality disorders and sometimes they overlap. Problem is, we all have those characteristics, but for those with PD they are out of average proportions.
> 
> There's a lot of material out there, most of these can't be medicated, and some don't respond well to therapy. But if can figure out what you are dealing with, you can gain some perspective and some coping mechanisms. Worth looking into. If you know what to look for, it's easier to not let her get to you when she's like that.
> 
> I agree with technovelist that she seems to have some BPD traits. or maybe some NPD :lack of remorse or empathy. Eg: Wanting OP to just drop it instead of a sincere apology. Not "getting" that OP deserved to be upset, entitlement.


She has been seeing a therapist for years. Actually for about 25 years now.

As mentioned in my post above, when I try to 'grey rock' her, this infuriates her and she says that I am giving her the silent treatment and abusing and manipulating her. I tell her that I am not giving her the silent treatment; that if she wants to talk, I am more than happy to talk, I am just not going to get worked up over her insults towards me.

I tried apologizing to her last night and she said she didn't want or need my apology.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> At least she has agreed to counseling. That's a beginning. Don't let her roll over you when you are discussing something. She is expecting you to be a mind reader with all that crap about 'knowing when to bring things up'.
> 
> Three years of walking on eggshells and you still marry her. Three months married and you're not even questioning the wisdom of that action. Why are you so determined to make this work? You made a bad choice - admit it and get on with your life.


I still married her because she convinced me it was my own issues that was causing me to walk on eggshells with her and that I would have these issues with anyone else. When I have tried to break up with her in the past, she would guilt me into staying, calling me a quitter, saying everyone she knows and loves leaves her and I am just like them, etc...

And yes, I do question the wisdom of marrying her every day. I am here now though and I am not so quick to give up. I made a choice and want to try to work through it. I may be successful and I may not, but I have to at least try.

We are now going on 12 hours with this argument and no resolution in sight, all from a relatively innocuous (or so I thought) comment I made about something I had been thinking about that day. And here I was thinking we were doing great and had managed to turn things around ...


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Wow, I can relate, All I have to say is good luck! FTR I am sure she feels as though she is the one walking on eggshells. My ex did that to me. I always felt that if you didn't want to walk on eggshells perhaps you shouldn't be throwing eggs in the first place.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Ynot said:


> Wow, I can relate, All I have to say is good luck! FTR I am sure she feels as though she is the one walking on eggshells. My ex did that to me. I always felt that if you didn't want to walk on eggshells perhaps you shouldn't be throwing eggs in the first place.


To which side can you relate? From your post, it sounds like you can more relate to my wife's side. If so, would you mind going into a bit more detail on your thoughts? I'd love to hear your perspective.

And it is possible she feels like she is walking on eggshells, although she has not said this to me, and she isn't one to hold back what's on her mind.


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Straight out ask her why she expects you to read her mind. Maybe she wants you to ask if this is an ok time to talk about what's bothering you. 

IIRC she blows up and gets over it and expects you to do the same. Forgetting about her possible personality disorder, it's evident that she thinks everyone needs to be like her in getting over things. Some people take the bs and set it aside to ponder on then come back when they've calmed down. This is rather normal so as not to escalate an argument. She doesn't want you coming back to her because she enjoys spewing her vomit with immunity.

She says everyone she loves leaves? You don't need to be cruel but you could ask her why she thinks that is. When an argument commences, stand your ground! You do not have to acquiesce and believe everything she says. If she says you have issues, ask her to point them out because you're not believing it. Take back your dignity and power in this relationship.


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

breathedeep said:


> To which side can you relate? From your post, it sounds like you can more relate to my wife's side. If so, would you mind going into a bit more detail on your thoughts? I'd love to hear your perspective.
> 
> And it is possible she feels like she is walking on eggshells, although she has not said this to me, and she isn't one to hold back what's on her mind.


I can relate to your side of this discussion. I always felt as though I were the one walking in eggshells in my marriage. On her way out the door, she told me that she was tired of walking on eggshells.

As I said, I had the opinion that perhaps she shouldn't have been throwing eggs in the first place. My ex also never held back. In fact she was often the one, like your wife, to badger me as to "what is wrong with you?". I typically held back opening up because I always was made to feel it was just my fault, so it was something that I just needed to deal with.
I don't think my ex ever considered how being told over and over that you are the problem could work on one's mind.
Some eggs that she threw - "I don't even think about having sex with you, I am just to busy" in response to me trying to tell her that I felt like a low priority
Or "You do what you have to do, I don't want to know about it!" in response to me sitting her down and explaining to her that I was going to have to file bankruptcy due to the collapse of the mortgage industry, which I was employed in.
Or "I am doing the best I can, if you don't like it I am leaving!" in response to me telling her I felt alone without a companion on our marriage.
The eggshells she walked on were a result of the eggs she threw. She chose to focus on my reaction, as if there was something wrong with me. 
As to your situation, I think getting counseling may really help. I hope it does. I don't think people set forth in a marriage expecting failure, but the baggage and expectations each of us brings often leads to no other conclusion. A good counselor may really help both of you learn to communicate better.
Lack of effective communication led to the failure of my marriage, hopefully you can learn from my experience.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> Straight out ask her why she expects you to read her mind. Maybe she wants you to ask if this is an ok time to talk about what's bothering you.


I have asked her this before and she says that almost every other human can figure out how to act and what is appropriate in certain social situations, so I just need to figure it out. We ended up last night with me saying that I would ask her if it is a good time to talk about something, a good time to do something, etc... that approach doesn't feel very good, but if that's what I gotta do then that's what I will do.



> IIRC she blows up and gets over it and expects you to do the same. Forgetting about her possible personality disorder, it's evident that she thinks everyone needs to be like her in getting over things. Some people take the bs and set it aside to ponder on then come back when they've calmed down. This is rather normal so as not to escalate an argument. She doesn't want you coming back to her because she enjoys spewing her vomit with immunity.


You are correct. On the other hand, the longer this goes on, the more I shift towards her mindset and the quicker I get over being angry.

Last night as I was getting in the bed, she had already been there reading a book for an hour. She immediately put her book away, and laid down looking at the ceiling in silence. I laid in silence for a minute or so, then I said, "Would you like to continue talking about things?" She responded, "I don't have anything to say. Do you have anything you'd like to say?" I said that I really didn't have anything more to say at that point, and we then proceeded to lay there in silence for another 10 minutes or so. Finally, I began dozing off, so I told her I was just going to go to sleep. This upset her and she reached over, turned off the light and turned over. I put my hand on her arm, told her I loved her, and went to kiss her. She pulled away and said, "What are you doing?" I said, "I am trying to give you a kiss." She asked why I was doing that and I said that that's typically what we do before bed. She gave me a peck and turned over.

The reason I wrote all of that is to illustrate that I am trying to move on like she has asked in the past, and also show a bit of good will and make things better. She has chosen to drag this one out.



> She says everyone she loves leaves? You don't need to be cruel but you could ask her why she thinks that is. When an argument commences, stand your ground! You do not have to acquiesce and believe everything she says. If she says you have issues, ask her to point them out because you're not believing it. Take back your dignity and power in this relationship.


Her father left her mother when my wife was 7 years old. Also, she has had difficulty in relationships all of her life.

I do not deny I have issues. If I didn't acknowledge my own internal issues, I would be in denial. My problem is that she doesn't acknowledge her part in our relationship troubles.


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"On the other hand, the longer this goes on, the more I shift towards her mindset and the quicker I get over being angry."

It's called detaching. Please don't adopt her strategies as she seems rather mentally disturbed. Do you really want to treat people the way she does?


----------



## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

breathedeep said:


> *I still married her because she convinced me it was my own issues that was causing me to walk on eggshells with her and that I would have these issues with anyone else. When I have tried to break up with her in the past, she would guilt me into staying, calling me a quitter, saying everyone she knows and loves leaves her and I am just like them, etc...
> *
> And yes, I do question the wisdom of marrying her every day. I am here now though and I am not so quick to give up. I made a choice and want to try to work through it. I may be successful and I may not, but I have to at least try.
> 
> We are now going on 12 hours with this argument and no resolution in sight, all from a relatively innocuous (or so I thought) comment I made about something I had been thinking about that day. And here I was thinking we were doing great and had managed to turn things around ...


the bolded is a key to the truth.

she says "everyone she knows loves her and leaves her". there is a reason for that. if she is BPD (and we don't know for sure, then there is no reasoning with her. is there push/pull patterns in her behavior.

another question to ponder: how was your past relationships with other women? were they also tempestuous? when i was with my ex (highly suspected BPD), i pondered my past relationships. this was the only one where there was constant struggle. i had to remind myself, that though far from perfect, i got along with people well, and women too. why was this one different? again the bolded part is key. 

be honest. assess your own faults. think about how you are contributing to the conflicts. at the end of the day, if you are being reasonable, then you know why people have constantly left her.

oh, and don't fall for that guilt trip (you are a quitter, blah, blah, blah!)


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Ynot said:


> I can relate to your side of this discussion. I always felt as though I were the one walking in eggshells in my marriage. On her way out the door, she told me that she was tired of walking on eggshells.
> 
> As I said, I had the opinion that perhaps she shouldn't have been throwing eggs in the first place. My ex also never held back. In fact she was often the one, like your wife, to badger me as to "what is wrong with you?". I typically held back opening up because I always was made to feel it was just my fault, so it was something that I just needed to deal with.
> I don't think my ex ever considered how being told over and over that you are the problem could work on one's mind.
> ...


It definitely sounds like we were/are in similar situations. Do you mind me asking, how long were you two dating? How long were you married? Was there a final straw for you? Did you begin to feel like maybe you WERE the problem, but in the back of your mind, you knew it takes two to tango?

I learned early on in my relationship with my wife that it wasn't safe to say what was really on my mind, how I was really feeling, or what I really thought. The only safe course of action was to ignore the feelings, and when she asked what was wrong, for me to just smile and say, 'Nothing honey.'


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

My wife has been ignoring me all morning, but once she got to work, we began having the discussion below. Posting this for more context:

wife: i am feeling very demoralized
i am angry

me: About us? About work? About Kids? About all of it?

wife: yes all of it but work and us are the big ones right now
the thoughts that go through my head when this stuff happens isnt good

me: Thoughts like what?

wife: Just not good thoughts

me: OK.
If you don't care to go into more detail, I won't push.

wife: i feel like there are fundamental problems with me, i am too damaged
i feel like there is no hope for me no matter how hard I try

me: too damaged for what?
and no hope for what?

wife: to be good at a relationship
no hope for me changing

me: I am sorry you feel that way. About yourself and about our relationship.

wife: ive been in counseling most of my life
i dont know how i can come to any other conclusion'
i clearly screwed up my old marriage and im doing the same thing with this one
i was damaged from 3 years old and many many times after that. i just dont know how to rewire what is wrong with me
i guess [her ex husband] was right about me. you are saying some of the same things he did.

me: Why do you think you screwed up your marriage with [her ex husband]

wife: i was the problem

me: He was the abusive partner
He was the narc
And what am I saying that he said?

wife: maybe he wasnt. Maybe it was just me
and Im not seeing it, lilke you said last night


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> "On the other hand, the longer this goes on, the more I shift towards her mindset and the quicker I get over being angry."
> 
> It's called detaching. Please don't adopt her strategies as she seems rather mentally disturbed. Do you really want to treat people the way she does?


No I don't want to treat people like she does, but when you are with someone that you trust, and they tell you that your way of doing things is wrong, and they say this enough, you begin to believe this.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

jorgegene said:


> the bolded is a key to the truth.
> 
> she says "everyone she knows loves her and leaves her". there is a reason for that. if she is BPD (and we don't know for sure, then there is no reasoning with her. is there push/pull patterns in her behavior.
> 
> ...


I try to be open to my own faults. One that I've realized with the help of this board is that I have classic Nice Guy syndrome. I am working on that, but it is a struggle since it goes against my nature of 37 years.

For the most part, I have good relationships with people. In my past relationships, I have NEVER been so stressed over the constant arguing and the feeling of walking on eggshells. Even when married to my ex wife, she and I didn't argue very often. Of course, when I bring this up to my current wife, she tells me this is because neither of us (me and my ex wife) really cared about each other like she (my wife) cares about me (meaning, issues are worth fighting for).


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

breathedeep said:


> My wife has been ignoring me all morning, but once she got to work, we began having the discussion below. Posting this for more context:
> 
> wife: i am feeling very demoralized
> i am angry
> ...


It sounds like she is at least willing to admit that she might be the problem, which is good.

Now the question is whether she maintains that willingness or discards it the next time she gets mad. I suspect the latter, but the former would be wonderful if it happened.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

technovelist said:


> It sounds like she is at least willing to admit that she might be the problem, which is good.
> 
> Now the question is whether she maintains that willingness or discards it the next time she gets mad. I suspect the latter, but the former would be wonderful if it happened.


I hope you are right. She has said this before, and things go well for a while (this past week is a great example), and then things go right back to where they were before.

Maybe I need to find some way of being more supportive so that she can stick to it.

We will be going to counseling (I hope), but aside from that, can anyone offer advice on what I can do on my end to help the situation?


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

breathedeep said:


> It definitely sounds like we were/are in similar situations. Do you mind me asking, how long were you two dating? How long were you married? Was there a final straw for you? Did you begin to feel like maybe you WERE the problem, but in the back of your mind, you knew it takes two to tango?
> 
> I learned early on in my relationship with my wife that it wasn't safe to say what was really on my mind, how I was really feeling, or what I really thought. The only safe course of action was to ignore the feelings, and when she asked what was wrong, for me to just smile and say, 'Nothing honey.'


We dated for two years and were married for 24 years. 
I don't know if there was a final straw for me. Like you I learned early on to play it safe rather than push the issue. She had been married before, I had not. I was committed to not make the same mistakes as her first ex. 
Over time I definitely came to feel as though I was the issue. After all how could this perfect woman, who I loved with all my heart be wrong?
Not only was I constantly told I was wrong, I was told that "everyone" thinks her way. All of her girl friends hated having sex with their husbands, it was too messy and they were all too busy taking care of w,y,z.
So I internalized my hurt over being sexually rejected - something had to be wrong with me since "everybody" else felt the same way she did.
Looking back I realize now that she had some serious hangups when it came to sex, amongst other things.
I was also self employed. I had a generally successful business that funded our lives, vacations, the kids activities, etc. She would often talk about how so and so did this or so and so did that, implying that I didn't make enough money (again I was the problem). 
So being immersed in that environment I came to feel there really must be something wrong with me. 
It has taken me over a year to sort thru my feelings. I had gotten to the point of hopelessness. I was depressed. I was just waiting to die. In the end she decided to leave due to "long standing, unresolved issues"
After she left we went to counseling one time. She proceeded to tell me how I was to blame for everything since I "wouldn't get a job or go after more business" despite making nearly $100,000/yr and working 50 to 60 hours a week. Again - I was to blame.
I am just now recovering my shattered self esteem. Don't let this happen to you. Go get counseling. As I said I hope it works. But sometimes the issues are just too deep to be resolved.


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Another aspect of my life where I was always to blame was in regards to religion. I was raised a catholic and over the years had come to reject any organized religion as being nothing more than a con. She tried to drag me to church, but I just could not accept the story. I was told that I wasn't faithful enough and just needed to have more faith. I swear I tried, I just couldn't accept it. But again, it was all my problem.


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

technovelist said:


> *It sounds like she is at least willing to admit that she might be the problem, which is good.*
> 
> Now the question is whether she maintains that willingness or discards it the next time she gets mad. I suspect the latter, but the former would be wonderful if it happened.


It's just part of the cycle. Break him down and then lure him back in with something that suggests she is capable of owning her stuff. It could be a game she enjoys playing for control or just plain ol' psychopath stuff. The OP could twist himself into a pretzel to please her and it still wouldn't be enough.

I'm sorry, but I don't hold out much hope of this marriage surviving and the OP not going nuts.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> It's just part of the cycle. Break him down and then lure him back in with something that suggests she is capable of owning her stuff. It could be a game she enjoys playing for control or just plain ol' psychopath stuff. The OP could twist himself into a pretzel to please her and it still wouldn't be enough.
> 
> I'm sorry, but I don't hold out much hope of this marriage surviving and the OP not going nuts.


I really do try to be positive and hate saying things like this due to self-fulfilling prophesies, but yes, this isn't the first or even fifth time I've heard this from her. Who knows though, maybe it will stick this time.

There was an incident that happened over the summer that actually did send me over the edge. Once recovered, I was hardened somewhat and kept guard so not to get so close to the edge again. The roller coaster she and I have been on since getting married is pushing me closer yet again.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> It's just part of the cycle. Break him down and then lure him back in with something that suggests she is capable of owning her stuff. It could be a game she enjoys playing for control or just plain ol' psychopath stuff. The OP could twist himself into a pretzel to please her and it still wouldn't be enough.
> 
> I'm sorry, but I don't hold out much hope of this marriage surviving and the OP not going nuts.


Yes, if she is BPD that is what will happen.

I think that is more likely than not, unfortunately, as I said in my previous comment...


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"I have asked her this before and she says that almost every other human can figure out how to act and what is appropriate in certain social situations, so I just need to figure it out."

Honestly, I was trying to let this one go, but...

has she been hiding under a rock her entire life? If people could figure out how to act and what is appropriate you wouldn't see mass migrations from family holiday parties. People take their cues from others in unfamiliar circumstances and quite often misread the cues. There is no telling what will set off someone. Besides, you are not in a 'social situation' - you are in a family situation in your own home and you can very well holler "a little help here, please". Not to mention that what you figure out may not be to her liking.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

More discussion and more context. I've bolded the part that started this entire argument last night. She got highly offended that I said she was snappy (short-tempered, biting, etc...) with me. That wasn't really my point in the comment to her though. I was actually hoping to discuss how we can each not allow work to effect the way we treat each other. The discussion didn't get that far because she got pissed, slammed dinner down and stormed upstairs.

I post these conversations so that there is context, and as much as I can, her side of the story is posted. If it is too much, or inappropriate, let me know.

wife: i am miserable

me: I'm sorry you are miserable

wife: its hard for me going from how things were last week to now

me: Yes, it is me too
I really hate it

wife: you seem fine

me: When we are not good I am anything but fine.

wife: what can we do to fix this?
I am hurting both mentally and physically

me: If you would like to talk more about the situation, I am happy to. If that will make things better. If you don't feel like we need to talk any more about it, we can just make the effort to move on like we usually do.

wife: I dont know what else to say. I dont want to dismiss what you were saying about work and us yesterday though either

me: ok. No problem. If you do have anything to talk about, just let me know.

wife: well I was hoping to start the conversation over.
at some point
if you even want to now

me: Of course I do
I am always willing to talk to you as long as you want to discuss things.

wife: the reason I said that is because it was something that was upsetting you so you would be the one who would be talking about your feelings

me: I don't know what you mean

wife: well, you were the one who was upset and had something to discuss last night. so it would be up to you to talk about what was upsetting you yesterday.
so I was asking if you wanted to still talk about it

me: There was nothing for me to discuss last night. I simply made a comment.
I was not upset.
not up to that point anyway.

wife: ok

*me: I said that I think I have finally realized something. That after the great week we had, work was a big part of our stress because it makes you snappy at me and makes me irritable.
The week off of work made me realize that work plays a big part in how we treat each other.
It was just an observation*

wife: i see


----------



## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

breathedeep said:


> I really do try to be positive and hate saying things like this due to self-fulfilling prophesies, but yes, this isn't the first or even fifth time I've heard this from her. Who knows though, maybe it will stick this time.
> 
> There was an incident that happened over the summer that actually did send me over the edge. Once recovered, I was hardened somewhat and kept guard so not to get so close to the edge again. The roller coaster she and I have been on since getting married is pushing me closer yet again.



Detach and let her prove it. When you are nearly indifferent towards her, move on. Words are just words, and she has to show a pattern of change before you should even trust it.

It will take about six months to a year to see some change. In the meantime, work towards your own independence from her and do not engage and get sucked into her drama.

It only hurts you in the end, making you more dysfunctional as well.

If you are ready to leave, you want to be mentally and emotionally healthy as possible.

Remember, it is your choice to stay in that environment, and you can choose yourself and leave.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Mr. Fisty - your advice is noted. I have already decided to begin putting money aside, just in case. She has been doing this for some time; I guess it is time I start.

It seems like she has forgiven me for my transgressions. She is back to texting me that she misses me and calling me sweetheart again.

Thank you all for your advice, as always. I have no one to talk to about these things, so your help means more to me than you know.

If (when?) things get out of hand again, I'll be back to vent, I'm sure.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

In the mean time, you go back to your "normal"?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

It must be like living in a funhouse.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> In the mean time, you go back to your "normal"?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Care to elaborate?

Hopefully she and I will be attending counseling, so if that is the takeaway from this, that is a step in the right direction.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> It must be like living in a funhouse.


Except with far less fun.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Well that didn't last long. She is upset at me again, but this time she will not tell me what she is upset about. I suspect it is about me detaching, as I am taking the advice I received here and not allowing her mood swings and outbursts to get to me. She now says I am acting cold and distant, which is apparently emotionally abusive to her.

Anyway, thanks for allowing me to vent, as always.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Ask her a simple question:

"What is it that you need me to do that I am not doing?"

She will likely give you an answer more similar to a platitude than something specific, eg. "I need you to care more."

If she does, ask, "What exactly does that look like? Help me to help you."

If she can't give you an example, shrug your shoulders, tell her you love her, and go back to focusing on you.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> Ask her a simple question:
> 
> "What is it that you need me to do that I am not doing?"
> 
> ...


Thanks. I'll try this today.


----------



## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

breathedeep said:


> Well that didn't last long. She is upset at me again, but this time she will not tell me what she is upset about. I suspect it is about me detaching, as I am taking the advice I received here and not allowing her mood swings and outbursts to get to me. She now says I am acting cold and distant, which is apparently emotionally abusive to her.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for allowing me to vent, as always.


Keep acting this way. Your wife sounds like she likes attention and drama. It takes two to fight so when she starts arguing I would walk out of the room. It sounds like you two spend maybe too much time together with work and home life. Maybe one of you needs to find another job or at the very least do some activities on your own.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Happilymarried25 said:


> Keep acting this way. Your wife sounds like she likes attention and drama. It takes two to fight so when she starts arguing I would walk out of the room. It sounds like you two spend maybe too much time together with work and home life. Maybe one of you needs to find another job or at the very least do some activities on your own.


She definitely likes the attention, and has been known to love drama, even though she won't admit it.

I am in the process of looking for another job, although I hesitate to walk away from the one I have because of my position with the company (2nd in charge and on track for partial ownership). She and I discussed this last night and I told her my job wasn't worth sacrificing our emotional health and well-being, so I am meeting with a friend today who has very good connections and is well-known for his executive placement.

You are right though, we spend too much time together.

I was active in sports until she and I got married. She felt like it interfered too much with our family time, so I put them on the back burner. I am reconsidering this decision and have decided that once March rolls around again (when the season starts), I'll get back into it.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

breathedeep said:


> Thanks. I'll try this today.


Good. But...if she does give you something specific, and it is reasonable...you damn well better do it.



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

breathedeep said:


> She definitely likes the attention, and has been known to love drama, even though she won't admit it.
> 
> I am in the process of looking for another job, although I hesitate to walk away from the one I have because of my position with the company (2nd in charge and on track for partial ownership). She and I discussed this last night and I told her my job wasn't worth sacrificing our emotional health and well-being, so I am meeting with a friend today who has very good connections and is well-known for his executive placement.
> 
> ...


Brother, you need to read a book.

Hold On To Your N.U.T.'s by Wayne Levine. Contrary to how it aounds, it is not a "Rah, Rah, you go guy" type of book. 

It does teach you how to identify the principles in life that matter to you, and how to stick to them. You giving up sports for your wife is a prime example. That is incredibly unhealthy.

Get the book. If you follow it's principles, it will help you tremendously.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> Brother, you need to read a book.
> 
> Hold On To Your N.U.T.'s by Wayne Levine. Contrary to how it aounds, it is not a "Rah, Rah, you go guy" type of book.
> 
> ...


I am working through No More Mr. Nice Guy at the moment. I am about 65% through, so it should only be a few more days. Once I finish it, I'll read the book you recommended. In fact, I'll just purchase it now so that I don't forget.


----------



## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

if she really is BPD or within the range of like spectrum, then all the logic, reasoning and appealing to
civility will not go anywhere. BDP persons have the emotional maturity of a 6-7 year old.
they may be very intelligent and clever and capable of being sweet and tender, but when they are threatened, then their
tantrums rule the day.

in learning of this behavior in the BPD forum, they taught that you cannot change their patterns of behavior, you must change yours.
you must learn to 'roll with the punches' and in certain instances leave the situation. there are a few good demonstration videos on you tube for this.

bottom line is you learn to (1) live with an emotional child/adult who never developed emotional maturity, (2) live in misery, or (3) leave.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

jorgegene said:


> bottom line is you learn to (1) live with an emotional child/adult who never developed emotional maturity, (2) live in misery, or (3) leave.


It helps to boil it down like this. Thank you.

And farside, here is where we are with what you recommended (I bolded the part where I got into what you recommended):

wife: is this ever going to get better? it feels like an eternity and its not improving

me: What? Us?

wife: yes

me: Yes, it CAN get better if we want it to. You have made similar statements before and we were able to turn things around. We even had a great week, which shows we are capable.
We just need to learn how.
The counselor will help us with that, I am sure.
Have you heard anything from [wife's individual counselor who is sending us MC referrals]?

wife: no not yet

me: ok
Have I done something to upset you?

wife: no you havent. I just keep feeling a distance between us, like you dont want to be close to me or whatever affection youre showing me is forced so I am feeling hesitant

me: We were very close and affectionate last week. After our argument Monday night that spilled into yesterday, I am hesitant too, but I am trying.
*What is it that you need me to do that I am not doing?*

wife: I dont know. I want things they way they were so much. I feel like its not possible

me: It is possible, but it will take work and self-awareness on both of our parts.
Can you define what you mean by 'the way they were'?
This might help me understand better what you need.

wife: the way they were last week. I know it cant always be at that level and I am realistic about that but that is what I want our relationship to generally be like
Affectionate, loving, connected, safe,

me: I want that too. That's all that I want. But when we have an argument like we did the other night and we have no real resolution and you feel that things are still stressed between us, what do you want? What do you need?

wife: I dont know exactly how to fix it. I was hoping that you could make some suggestions, I want you to get what you need from this as well.
I need us to be close to each other. It seems to be the only thing that melts the ice.

---------------------------------

Some things to note: the distance she feels is because I am detached as recommended here. She doesn't like it at all. Also, the last message from her states that she needs us to be close to each other. That is code from her, meaning she needs us to be intimate. She equates sex with things being ok, and then she is able to move past these feelings of disaster and anguish that she is demonstrating now.

So, all of that said, am I really to continue being detached? If I increase my show of love and affection to her, this will ease her insecurities. Isn't this what I am supposed to do? This is where I am confused because I want to be a good, loving, affectionate husband.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jorgegene said:


> if she really is BPD or within the range of like spectrum, then all the logic, reasoning and appealing to
> civility will not go anywhere. BDP persons have the emotional maturity of a 6-7 year old.
> they may be very intelligent and clever and capable of being sweet and tender, but when they are threatened, then their
> tantrums rule the day.
> ...


This is his opportunity to figure it out.

My wife had BPD-like symptoms when we were not healthy. Black/white thinking, push/pull, screaming and hateful towards me while begging me not to leave her... But that was because of how I dealt (or more aptly dealt poorly) with her.

Let the OP try some things before we simply write her off or say it is pointless.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

breathedeep said:


> So, all of that said, am I really to continue being detached? If I increase my show of love and affection to her, this will ease her insecurities. Isn't this what I am supposed to do? This is where I am confused because I want to be a good, loving, affectionate husband.


Before anything else you have to determine whether she is exhibiting serious BPD symptoms, which it certainly sounds like to me (although I am not diagnosing her, as I don't have the expertise to do that).

If that is what is going on, *nothing *you do will get her to stop the drama, as it is inherent in her, not caused by your actions. Yes, you can keep walking on eggshells, but that will not prevent the outbursts because she *needs *that drama and will get it one way or another.

If this is BPD, the only way to be free of the drama is to be free of the person.

Again, I'm not a psychologist, nor do I play one on TV. You have to figure this out for yourself.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

OP, if ever there was a relationship needing a Power Exchange dynamic, yours is it. 

your wife is practically already begging for one...


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> OP, if ever there was a relationship needing a Power Exchange dynamic, yours is it.
> 
> your wife is practically already begging for one...


This. Good call, brother. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## GA HEART (Oct 18, 2011)

Honestly, and don't bash me here.....I don't think she sounds BPD. I think she just sounds like a drama queen. Which can be worse in some cases.

My ex was (undiagnosed but TEXTBOOK) BPD. If she is true BPD, she will likely leave you eventually anyway. Mine did. I suffered for years and he left me and the kids (good riddance, best thing EVER.)

My fiancée is a drama king. We have had discussions about this. I am laid back and mostly chill.....and words are important in my world. They have meaning and I take most everything I hear at face value. He was raised differently than I was. Words are for entertainment in his life. I have had the wonderful opportunity to get to know his parents very well and in the past 3 years have seen this play out in their relationship. It makes more sense to me now. 

The "getting over stuff" quickly is all part of a Drama King(Queen) personality. Words (shouting matches) really are their norm. They actually thrive off that crap. (Crap to me, entertainment to them.) It is promising to me that she actually cares when she can tell you are upset. A BPD wouldn't. They wouldn't likely notice.

Ask her about her upbringing sometime. You said her dad left? What is (was) her mom like? What was her dad like before he left? I have a feeling that words are not as big of a deal to her because of the way she was raised. Versus people like us (perhaps, I'm just speculating) where words were very important.

I suggest you read Boundaries, by Cloud and Townsend. Not everything in that book will pertain to you, but it is a wonderful resource to teach you how to "detach" without guilt (without guilt is key.) I also recommend the 5 love languages. 10-1 her love language is NOT words. It's likely quality time. Yours will be words of affirmation (speculation, but your story is definitely lining up with a lot of issues me and the fiancée have had.)

Definitely take sports back up. Involve her if you can, but don't let it stop you if you can't. And if 25 years of counseling isn't helping her, time to find a better counselor.


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

OP this has been a very informative thread for me. I have not been exposed to adult discussion between husband and wife since forever. Conversations like the ones you've posted didn't take place in my marriage instead they were something like this

her: what is wrong with you?

me: I feel like nothing I say or do matters. 

her: are you kidding me? I am doing everything I can. I am sick of bending over backwards and walking on eggshells to please you. I am doing the best that I can and if you don't like it I am leaving!

This would typically be followed by her walking away and me going off to "consider" what she said. 99 times out of a 100, I would eventually accept that she was just to busy and go back to apologize

Or:

her: what is your problem?

me: I feel like there is no companionship between us, we don't do anything together any more, I feel like I am the low man on the totem pole and everything else take priority over me

her: what does that mean

me: well we haven't made love in a month

her: So you are keeping track? It hasn't been that long, this weekend I have this going on an dlast week end we had that going on and before that we were doing something else!

me: yes, I keep track, it is hard not to when it has been so long

her: well, I am just too busy to even think about it

Here she would go away and I would go off to accept her reasoning and follow that up with another apology

It is interesting to see how adults converse

me:


----------



## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

GA HEART said:


> Honestly, and don't bash me here.....I don't think she sounds BPD. I think she just sounds like a drama queen. Which can be worse in some cases.
> 
> My ex was (undiagnosed but TEXTBOOK) BPD. If she is true BPD, she will likely leave you eventually anyway. Mine did. I suffered for years and he left me and the kids (good riddance, best thing EVER.)
> 
> ...


why should we bash you? your opinion is as valid as anyone's

she very well might not be BPD or any disorder, just a drama queen like you say.

here is a short list of BPD traits:

_According to the DSM, Fourth Edition, Text Revision (DSM-IV-TR), to be diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, a person must show an enduring pattern of behavior that includes at least five of the following symptoms:

Extreme reactions—including panic, depression, rage, or frantic actions—to abandonment, whether real or perceived
A pattern of intense and stormy relationships with family, friends, and loved ones, often veering from extreme closeness and love (idealization) to extreme dislike or anger (devaluation)
Distorted and unstable self-image or sense of self, which can result in sudden changes in feelings, opinions, values, or plans and goals for the future (such as school or career choices)
Impulsive and often dangerous behaviors, such as spending sprees, unsafe sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, and binge eating
Recurring suicidal behaviors or threats or self-harming behavior, such as cutting
Intense and highly changeable moods, with each episode lasting from a few hours to a few days
Chronic feelings of emptiness and/or boredom
Inappropriate, intense anger or problems controlling anger
Having stress-related paranoid thoughts or severe dissociative symptoms, such as feeling cut off from oneself, observing oneself from outside the body, or losing touch with reality._

there are more extensive detailed lists available.

he needs to carefully, honestly, with stone cold objectivity consider and evaluate her against these traits and if he objectively suspects she might be BPD then of course the ideal is to get her to a qualified therapist. however she will probably resist.

he would need to educate himself thoroughly on the subject and join a support forum specifically for BPD.

on the other hand, if after giving long consideration to the above and there is no strong reason to suspect BPD then go the 'drama queen' route and go from there.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

As'laDain said:


> OP, if ever there was a relationship needing a Power Exchange dynamic, yours is it.
> 
> your wife is practically already begging for one...


I'll have to google this. Thank you for the headsup.


----------



## FaithinVisionsRealized (Nov 17, 2015)

The positive development in your situation is that both of you are open to counseling together. It is frustrating for men when they are attempting to please their mate and meet her expectations. Men and women have different communication styles and needs that can create tension in the relationship. An example of indirect communication is of a husband asking his wife if he can watch the football game with his friends. His wife has the expectation that he will read her "Non verbal" cues and understand that she is upset. Women pick up on non verbal cues better as opposed to men. The wife responds "If that is what you want" or "That is fine". The husband comes home to a wife that is upset and irritable and he asks "I thought everything was fine, you told me I could go." Men are more direct in communication and tend to want to resolve the issue. Women have a tendency to want emotional support and someone to listen to them instead of wanting men to solve their issue. I noticed that she said that she wanted someone to "Listen to her." Without knowing the intimate details of the situation, it appears that she may have not felt listened to. On her end she is being indirect in what she is needing and not providing you with specifics of how to meet her needs. A different way to communicate with her is to use "Reflective listening" using words such as "It sounds like you are (Feeling such as Angry) when ______ happens and after feelings are reflected then offer a solution. A recommendation I would offer is to ask her specifically what are the best times for her to discuss these challenges both of you have. You can even schedule a certain time per week to discuss challenges or perhaps use counseling time for that purpose until better communication is established. Whenever there is spontaneous talk of challenges, people tend to be more defensive. If it is scheduled there is an expectation and less defensiveness as a result. I am attaching a video you can watch to show you the different ways men and women communicate. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

GA HEART said:


> Ask her about her upbringing sometime. You said her dad left? What is (was) her mom like? What was her dad like before he left? I have a feeling that words are not as big of a deal to her because of the way she was raised. Versus people like us (perhaps, I'm just speculating) where words were very important.


Her father cheated on her mother many times before he finally left and never came back. Her mother divorced him at that point. She has a good relationship with her father now, but it took some time to get to where they are now. She was abused several times throughout her childhood. This is what she was referencing in the discussion I posted when she said she was 'broken at the age of 3...' She lived with her mother until she was 17 and then moved out. Before moving out, her mother worked two jobs and was rarely home. My wife was left to raise herself for the most part. She had a good relationship with her mother, but her mother died earlier this year.



> I suggest you read Boundaries, by Cloud and Townsend. Not everything in that book will pertain to you, but it is a wonderful resource to teach you how to "detach" without guilt (without guilt is key.) I also recommend the 5 love languages. 10-1 her love language is NOT words. It's likely quality time. Yours will be words of affirmation (speculation, but your story is definitely lining up with a lot of issues me and the fiancée have had.)


I'll add Boundaries to my ever-growing reading list. Thank you for the recommendation.

Early on in our relationship, my wife had me read an article on our love languages. She is big on articles and those silly 'tests' you see on Facebook. Anyway, I cannot remember our results, but I do know that I tend to show my love through acts of service. I like to receive love through words of affirmation and physical touch (but only by my significant other). I would have to agree that hers is quality time and physical touch, although early on in our relationship she was NOT big on physical touch.



> Definitely take sports back up. Involve her if you can, but don't let it stop you if you can't. And if 25 years of counseling isn't helping her, time to find a better counselor.


I will definitely get back into it. It is baseball, so she cannot be involved and really doesn't have any interest in it. That's ok though. She has been seeing a counselor for 25 years, but her current counselor for maybe 5 or 6 years. I do agree though; the summaries she gives me after she comes back from her sessions sounds like her therapist gives her too much leeway or doesn't really get too much into the hard subjects. My gut also tells me my wife gives her counselor information that is biased in a way to make my wife look more favorably.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Ynot said:


> OP this has been a very informative thread for me. I have not been exposed to adult discussion between husband and wife since forever. Conversations like the ones you've posted didn't take place in my marriage instead they were something like this
> 
> her: what is wrong with you?
> 
> ...


I am extremely happy to know that putting my situation out there is helpful to you, and possibly to others. Honestly, I was worried that posting verbatim conversations was going a bit too far, but it seems like it was helpful to you. During the day, we tend to communicate via messenger, so its easy to post the transcripts of the conversation. I know some people feel it is not good practice to discuss these types of topics via any text-based medium, and I tend to agree, but my wife absolutely cannot wait to get home to have these discussions as she doesn't have the self-control or patience for it, so this is how its done for now.


----------



## GA HEART (Oct 18, 2011)

Sounds like a rough childhood for sure, which can trigger BPD. But it could also play into a victim mentality. Some of the most victimized people I've ever met constantly go on and on and ON about how strong they are and how they aren't victims......but play the victim card perfectly. When I said ask about her childhood, I guess I meant ask to see how people in her life dealt with conflict. My ability to get to know my fiancées parents as well as I have is definitely a plus for me because I get to see and understand first hand how he was raised. His personality (Drama King) makes sense. He is a good person and his parents are great people. But they LOVE their drama. Luckily they can turn it off almost as quickly as they can turn it on, and are very loving and caring people (all three of them.) Your W sounds to me like she's still struggling with being a victim, even if she swears shes not. Especially if she isn't being honest with the counselor. Childhood sexual abuse can hang with people for a looooooong time, but it doesn't have to define anyone. Definitely encourage her to find a new counselor and hopefully you guys can get a GOOD MC. I've been to great counselors and I've been to awful ones.

Perhaps see if any of your baseball buddies wives do anything while the hubbys are out playing and encourage her to get involved in that?


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

There was a post by someone that said something like, "just looks like two needy people to me" but it looks like it has been deleted for some reason. I am ok with posts like this, so no need to delete. I am interested in all opinions and open to looking at my own shortcomings.

I cannot argue that I tend to be needy. It is something that I have acknowledged long ago, and hope that I can deal with by reading the material that has been suggested here as well as going to counseling. I want to take responsibility for my part in this, and the advice I have received in my threads here have helped me in doing this. It is early on for me, so admittedly, I am still trying to understand the best way to accomplish this.


----------



## GA HEART (Oct 18, 2011)

breathedeep said:


> I am extremely happy to know that putting my situation out there is helpful to you, and possibly to others. Honestly, I was worried that posting verbatim conversations was going a bit too far, but it seems like it was helpful to you. During the day, we tend to communicate via messenger, so its easy to post the transcripts of the conversation. I know some people feel it is not good practice to discuss these types of topics via any text-based medium, and I tend to agree, but my wife absolutely cannot wait to get home to have these discussions as she doesn't have the self-control or patience for it, so this is how its done for now.


Since my fiancée can be dramatic, I text him a lot too. It's better than trying to talk to him when he's in one of his moods. Part of keeping myself from getting wrapped up in his BS. At first he took exception to it, saying he preferred to talk outright. But I refused and explained why. Eventually he realized that what I was saying made sense. We do talk things out a lot better now, and with significantly less drama. He still has his moments. But I don't play into them now. It gets exhausting, but it is also becoming less frequent. It is getting easier.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

GA HEART said:


> Since my fiancée can be dramatic, I text him a lot too. It's better than trying to talk to him when he's in one of his moods. Part of keeping myself from getting wrapped up in his BS. At first he took exception to it, saying he preferred to talk outright. But I refused and explained why. Eventually he realized that what I was saying made sense. We do talk things out a lot better now, and with significantly less drama. He still has his moments. But I don't play into them now. It gets exhausting, but it is also becoming less frequent. It is getting easier.


I do have to admit that I like having a record of what was said, just as a CYA.

I have series of text messages between she and I from few months ago that anyone (attorney, counselor, etc...) might find hard to believe happened unless they actually saw the texts.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I made the post about neediness, OP. But I read through the thread again, and I was not sure that was accurate. So I deleted it.

There is a good site for dealing with BPD called reignitethefire.org. The guy basically says to just say No when you need to, and hold firm. That seems to work well.

I do not have BPD, but I am a lot more emotional than my husband. He just remains calm when I get upset. He would never recommend the detaching like some here have. And forget telling me to just deal with my emotions on my own. 

What works here is active listening (google it), staying present (no abandonment, like leaving the room), and not taking anything I say personally. He just lets my words roll off his back. He does take note of my message, though. 

You have to be strong in yourself to do this. You have to have inner security. She is leaning on you, so you need to be sturdy.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

OP, here is a passage from that site:


_One of the core beliefs you must have if you want to succeed in both relationships and life is to be comfortable in your own skin.

This also means that you must have 10 inches of thick, steel skin. Words and insults should bounce right off you and over your shoulder. You can’t be affected by the opinions and words of others.

When you begin to understand this mindset, you’ll see how powerful it really is. All of the most powerful people who have ever lived have had thick skin.

The opinions of others, even their romantic partners, just doesn’t change who they are. It doesn’t throw them off course._


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Let me speak to neediness, brother. I suffer(ed?) from it for a while in trying to reignite my marriage. And why? Because I was unable to manage my own anxiety and insecurity towards the marriage, and wanted to feel better, so it manifested itself into trying to get my wife to soothe it for me.

Which is funny, because it appears that is exactly what both of you are trying to do to each other.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## GA HEART (Oct 18, 2011)

I often joke that I am the man in our relationship and he is the female, because I think typically drama queens are more common than drama kings. What JLD said probably works better for a female (as I have leaned more toward DQ in my younger years and can attest that is how I probably needed to be handled.) Detaching works VERY well in my situation though, since men are different in how they process emotions. In my observations and experiences, anyway.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

GA HEART said:


> I often joke that I am the man in our relationship and he is the female, because I think typically drama queens are more common than drama kings. What JLD said probably works better for a female (as I have leaned more toward DQ in my younger years and can attest that is how I probably needed to be handled.) Detaching works VERY well in my situation though, since men are different in how they process emotions. In my observations and experiences, anyway.


I would agree with you, GA. 

But I can tell you any perceived abandonment, or even worse, aggression, would not go over well here. Anything other than an ability to be calm and understanding and secure would be perceived as untrustworthy and uncaring.

Again, totally agree it could be different when dealing with an emotional man.


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

JLD, have you informed the OP that you and your husband are in a power exchange dynamic and you are the submissive? What works in your marriage may not (probably not) work in the standard man/wife equal team marriage. Dug is commendable in playing his part as the dominant and it certainly would cause major problems for you if he veered from the script. The OP would be wise to separate the dynamics involved in your type of marriage from the ordinary dynamics in most marriages.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> JLD, have you informed the OP that you and your husband are in a power exchange dynamic and you are the submissive? What works in your marriage may not (probably not) work in the standard man/wife equal team marriage. Dug is commendable in playing his part as the dominant and it certainly would cause major problems for you if he veered from the script. The OP would be wise to separate the dynamics involved in your type of marriage from the ordinary dynamics in most marriages.


I did not, Blondilocks. 

Now you know, OP. If it makes a difference.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Tonight didn't go quite as planned. I went home early from work to get an early start on what I hoped to be a nice evening with my wife. Things proceeded fine up until about halfway through us 'being close' (sex) like she talk about earlier in the day. I could tell something was wrong with her, so I asked her if everything was ok. She said it was 'fine', but of course I know what 'fine' means. I asked if she wanted to switch up positions and she said she liked how things were going... except it seemed she wasn't liking how things were going so I asked her if she would like to be on top. She said she would do whatever I wanted, so we switched things up a bit. She became even more visibly agitated, so I asked her if she wanted me to do something specific to please her. I told her that I like it when she instructs me because it helps me know what she likes. She said, "I'm not looking for an inquisition here. I don't want to have to tell you what to do." I said that that was the only way I knew if I was doing something right for her and she said that if I wanted to know, she wasn't looking for acrobatics tonight, that she just wanted it to be sweet and special between us. I told her I cannot read her mind and if that is what she needed tonight she should have told me the first time I asked, but I was trying to do what she asked me to do the other night (we had an argument after sex the other night because she said she wanted to switch up things because they were becoming routine and she didn't want us to become a 'one-trick' pony, but that is another story for another time). She said, "We have always been able to reconnect in the past like this without me having to tell you what to do. I do not want to have to tell you what to do. That makes it awkward." Then it only went downhill from there. The argument was quite lengthy and I'll post more if anyone requests it.

I swear I will never be able to get this right.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Sure, go ahead.

She seems frustrated, but it sounds like average frustration.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> JLD, have you informed the OP that you and your husband are in a power exchange dynamic and you are the submissive? What works in your marriage may not (probably not) work in the standard man/wife equal team marriage. Dug is commendable in playing his part as the dominant and it certainly would cause major problems for you if he veered from the script. The OP would be wise to separate the dynamics involved in your type of marriage from the ordinary dynamics in most marriages.


 @jld, I think you should put that in your signature. It makes your advice much easier to evaluate.


----------



## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

technovelist said:


> @jld, I think you should put that in your signature. It makes your advice much easier to evaluate.


Have you read her signature? It is already in there.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Duguesclin said:


> Have you read her signature? It is already in there.


I'm sorry, but I don't see it in there. All I see is this:

"One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man"

That says nothing about power exchange, dom/sub, or anything of the sort. Not to me, anyway, and I doubt I am alone in that "lack of vision".


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

technovelist said:


> I'm sorry, but I don't see it in there. All I see is this:
> 
> "One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man"
> 
> That says nothing about power exchange, dom/sub, or anything of the sort. Not to me, anyway, and I doubt I am alone in that "lack of vision".


I think it is a very good description, tech.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

I don't agree that it is equivalent, and I doubt very many other people think it is equivalent either.

But I'll start a new thread about it to avoid further thread-jacking.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I think in this instance JLD could provide very relevant advice. 

Asladain nailed it about the power exchange. Notice his wife got more agitated the more he asked her for direction. 

I think she is looking for a dom.

JLD and Dug are uniquely suited to help in that department.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hi, OP. I looked through your other thread, and I think the quickest way for you to improve your marriage would be to learn active listening. It is basically three things:

1) Repeating your wife's words back to her, or

2) Paraphrasing what she said, in your own words, or

3) Asking an open-ended question 

Doing one or more of these will make her feel you have heard her. You must listen sincerely, though. Really try to understand her, even if she is being emotional or illogical. Just taking the time to treat her with care and respect, through using one of these methods, should calm her down, and get at the root of the issue.

Active listening is all about getting to the root of the issue. You want to find out what is upsetting her, and get it out on the table. Walking out of the room, or going for a drive, is not going to do this. It is just going to trigger her abandonment fears. 

So stay present, and start using active listening, instead.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

To be a Dom, you have to get control of your emotions. You have to become secure in yourself. Your wife will detect any insecurity, and she will not be able to trust you. And being a Dom requires that you earn her trust.

By Dom, I do not mean bedroom games, btw. That can be part of it, but I do not consider that true dominance. To me, true dominance is taking responsibility for the relationship. And you start by earning her trust.

Think of the things that have made you trust others, such as your boss, or a coach, or a favorite teacher. They were likely dependable, honest, skilled people. You felt safe with them. You knew that if you listened to what they said, and modeled your behavior after theirs, you would benefit. This is what you want to offer to your wife.

Think, too, of their demeanor. Were they angry, impatient, prideful people? Or were they calm, patient, humble people? Which kind of person do you think your wife is more likely to accept instruction from? 

Cultivate the qualities that will help you become a more trustworthy person if you want to earn her trust (and I hope you do ).


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I saw in your other thread that you were open and honest with your wife about her son's behavior, even when it was painful for her to hear. That is very good. 

Honesty, even when it is painful to hear, teaches us a lot. It probably teaches us the most when it pains us. It strikes our conscience. It certainly struck your wife's.

Vow to be honest and open with your wife, her children, and yours. Honesty should be the policy in your home.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

OP, try the active listening as jld describes it. 

usually, for most people, it works wonders. if, however, she reacts with irritation and disgust, she falls into another camp. the same my wife is in. they see it as patronizing, and it ticks them off.

from what I can tell, from what you have already provided, your wife has a few issues:

one, fear of abandonment. it seem every man in her life has abandoned her at some point.
two, a fear that she will cause this abandonment. she knows her behavior is wrong, but she doesn't know how to stop getting emotionally wound up, and believes that she will eventually do something bad enough to push you away. another word for it is toxic shame.


she may benefit from small rituals where you find something symbolic to do that allows her to believe that you have truly forgiven her for her transgressions, and therefore have gone back to loving her again. in her mind, you MUST be merely acting if nothing was done to resolve it. its part of what carries the anxiety. such rituals would have to be something that would genuinely allow you to feel better, and get back to wanting to smile when you see her.

the paradox of toxic shame is that in order to truly be forgiven a transgression, you have to admit you are wrong, but to admit you are wrong is to acknowledge the scary part of yourself that will end up getting you abandoned. acknowledging it makes it real...

in power exchange dynamics, those symbolic rituals vary greatly. the variety comes not from the type of Dom the dominant party wants to be, but from the type of Dom the sub needs. for instance, my wife cannot let go of her anxiety if I simply tell her that I forgive her and try to hold her. to her, it feels fake, and its scary. she grew up with people telling her that everything was fine when they didn't mean it, only to find them abandoning her later. for her, she needed a gesture that she could latch onto in order to make "forgiveness" feel real. 

don't forget something... the frustration you are seeing isn't just frustration. its also anxiety. she wants you to display the emotions on your face and through your actions that tell her that you forgive her, that you still love her, and that you are strong enough to live with someone with her flaws. its the only way she will really be able to feel safe, knowing that she cannot ruin the relationship. you asking her to direct you in bed was intended to give her a pleasurable experience. what she wanted was to know that you take pleasure in her. she wants to know that you just want her. in order to give her that sense of security, you need to be directing her and telling her what you want, and then displaying your pleasure with gusto! if you derive so much pleasure from her and want her so much, despite her flaws, then you are more likely to forgive her of her flaws, thus making her less likely to have to face another soul crushing abandonment. it makes you safer, because your less likely to leave.  

see the paradox here?


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Jld and As'laDain (as well as tech, to some degree) - I believe you have come very close to understanding and describing what is going on in my relationship. I've read what you have written here and there is quite a bit to absorb and respond to. I am unclear about some of it, but other parts are coming into focus much better. Thank you for taking the time as you have done.

I do have lots of questions, comments and thoughts in response to what you have written, but today will be a very busy day at work, so it may be a few hours before I can do so in any great detail. I just wanted to post quickly to say thank you for your help. I'll be back when I get some down time at work.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Asla and I can work together to give you ideas and encourage you, OP. We may have a bit different approaches, but that can be helpful, too.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> I think in this instance JLD could provide very relevant advice.
> 
> Asladain nailed it about the power exchange. Notice his wife got more agitated the more he asked her for direction.
> 
> ...


In the past, she has said she wants me to be more assertive in bed; I have tried it a few times and the results are hit or miss. Last night it was a big swing and a miss. I came home early with the express intention of being intimate with my wife and making things better. I told her I was coming home for this reason. When I got home, I led hear upstairs and initiated things immediately. The problem was, my brain was thinking, "take charge, dominate her, be assertive" and she was thinking, "closeness, loving caresses, and soft kisses". When I noticed she wasn't into what I was doing, I thought of advice I had seen on here, and what she and I had discussed the week before.

I began asking for direction because last week, we had just finished having sex and she was laying on her back, not really saying much. I could tell she was not happy, so I asked what was wrong. She began to cry (this is not a rare occurrence with her), so I'm thinking, oh crap, what did I do wrong? She said that she feels 'left out' in sex because she cannot have an orgasm easily through standard penetration (I am paraphrasing here to make it PG) and that she needs me to do other things to help her out. This isn't new to me because she hasn't been able to orgasm with me since she and I started dating and afterwards she would always masterbate while I 'helped' her reach climax. However, she has always says the sex between us is great and for her it is not about the orgasm, but the intimacy. She says if I try to make it about the orgasm, it puts too much pressure on her and it is surely not to come. Ok, fair enough, so I do not put any pressure on her orgasm and try to focus on just making the experience pleasurable for her.

She then tells me she doesn't want to do it this way anymore (masterbating afterwards), and that she wants to grow more intimate with me and is ready to try to orgasm while we are having sex. I said great! Tell me what I need to do. She told me what she would like me to do in the future and I told her that I like when she instructs me like that because it helps me know what is working and what isn't. She agreed that she would help guide me next time.

Flash forward a week or so later and the time has come (last night), so I begin asking for instruction, and well that didn't go over well as you saw in my previous post.

I thought it would work better because I saw on here some posters getting great results from their partner instructing them on what they want, what feels good, etc... I even saw one guy post something like, "I tell my wife I am just a dumb guy, I don't know how those things work (vagina, clitoris, etc...) and that she needs to tell me what feels good". I read that and thought to myself, "Yeah, that just might work with us."

So, sometimes my wife wants a dom, and other times she doesn't. My problem is that I can never seem to know which is right in the moment, and invariably I chose the wrong one.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

jld said:


> Hi, OP. I looked through your other thread, and I think the quickest way for you to improve your marriage would be to learn active listening. It is basically three things:
> 
> 1) Repeating your wife's words back to her, or
> 
> ...


This is where things start to break down for me. My wife gets VERY emotional (read: angry, hurtful, etc...) during arguments. She will say things to me that are difficult for me to believe anyone would say to someone they love. I have taken her verbal attacks for more than two years and at some point, it is difficult to keep listening. Also, I do not want to degrade into name calling and retaliating, so I either have to shut up completely or I will say something I later regret, or I need to remove myself from the situation until she can calm down.

So when she is saying things to me like:

"Maybe I made a mistake marrying you"

"I would be perfectly fine by myself; you should go F&ck [waitress from the night before]. I'm sure you'll be happy with her"

"The man I really want doesn't exist"

I should sit and let that roll off of my back? or as you stated above, say to her: So you want me to go F&CK other women? Is that really what you want?

Not trying to be critical of your advice, I am trying to understand.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

As'laDain said:


> OP, try the active listening as jld describes it.
> 
> usually, for most people, it works wonders. if, however, she reacts with irritation and disgust, she falls into another camp. the same my wife is in. they see it as patronizing, and it ticks them off.
> 
> ...


You are correct. She has a fear of abandonment. She has anxiety. She has difficulty controlling her emotions. She is very impulsive and often reacts without thinking of the consequences. When she and I were first together, of course we were on our best behavior, but slowly her behavior has worn me down. Am I really just supposed to let it roll off of my back and take it when she lashes out at me?


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

jld said:


> Asla and I can work together to give you ideas and encourage you, OP. We may have a bit different approaches, but that can be helpful, too.


Thank you, jld. I will definitely need all the encouragement and ideas I can get. We have been arguing and bickering since last night. Conversation from today:

wife: im trying to not be frustrated but its hard.
I came over to see you and talk about lunch and was hoping youd want to eat together but apparently not.
Thats fine. I give up

me: What? How was I supposed to know. You didn't say anything about it.
If you had said you wanted to eat together, I would have been happy to.
But I had no idea.

wife: no I didnt. because it would be nice if you actually wanted to spend time with me.
I was hoping youd want to.
but you arent motivated to spend time with me
thats fine.

me: Because of [Our Company CEO] saying we spend too much time together at work, and how we haven't been seeing each other at work anymore, I didn't know that lunch today was an option.
I thought our day for lunch was tomorrow.
So it isn't a matter of me not wanting to spend time with you, it is that yo uand I have talked about the current situation and I thought was were in agreement that we were not going to be spending as much time together.
If you had wanted to have lunch together, you could have mentioned it and I would have said sure though.

wife: right and [Our Company CEO] isnt even here

me: Yes but people tell on us all the time
and [CEO's Husband] may be here

wife: I think we both know that the problem is during work hours and not really about lunch
I just would like to see some interest
and you are SO distant and cold to me
I feel like I keep asking for things and its not recieved
I asked you to hurry last night when you said you were coming up
but you didnt. I even asked please and you were busy.

me: I said I was coming up after I exercised

wife: I know how it went

me: And I needed to clean the kitchen

wife: I have sought you out several times today and just...nothing

me: We are going to have to find a counselor soon because I cannot figure things out with us and I am becoming emotionally exhausted

wife: Im sorry our relationship is doing that to you
Do you want things to be fixed? Do you want to be close to me? IE affectionate, physically or otherwise? please be honest

me: Yes, I want to fix us
I want us to be ok
That's all I want
I love you and want us to be ok
But I don't feel like you listen to my side of the story, and I know you don't feel like I hear you
So we have to talk to someone who can ehlp us with that, so we can be fixed.
Right now, I am to a point where I need some time away from you, time to myself so that I know we won't be arguing
After last night when we *TRIED* to be close and that blew up in my face, I just needed some time to my self
I am exhausted
I am trying to figure things out for me and for us, but nothing I do works

wife: ok. i will stay in [wife's daughter] room until you want me back with you. I will log off of messenger and will not text or contact you so you have some time away from me. If you want me, you know where I am.
If not, then I would appreciate you communicating that to me

me: See. when you do that, it doesn't help. That is only making things worse.

wife: You said you needed time away from me

me: I try to tell you how I feel and you throw a tantrum every time.

wife: Im only trying to give you what you want.
this is a tantrum to you?
trying to accommodate what you just asked for?

me: Yes, taking your toys and going home, that's a tantrum

wife: that isnt confusing

me: You confuse me every day

wife: as do you

me: Our relationship is confusing
And I was talking about last night.
Reread what I said
I was explaining last night.

wife: I dont know what you want. You want time away from me, so I accommodate that and that is throwing a tantrum.

me: Not saying I wanted sepearation from you

wife: If you wanted time away from me last night you should have communicated that to me.

me: Taking an hour to exercise is not me wanting to be completely separate from you from now until I deem otherwise.

wife: I cant read your mind anymore than you can read mine
I only wanted to try to fix things last night by asking you to hurry up
I wanted us to snuggle
thats it
I dont know what to do about the counselor. All of the ones that are on our insurance are crap
they get bad ratings

me: Then we need to find one that isn't on our insurance

wife: I have been researching, Ive spent several hours
I am trying

me: And so have I, but you didn't like the ones I found either.
Or they got bad reviews as well

wife: you sent me one that EAP suggested. She gets horrible ratings. I dont want us to go into a situation where they wont be helpful to us
this is hard enough without having a crappy counselor

me: That's fine.

wife: Im not trying to be difficult

me: That's why I said we would keep looking

wife: I know.
im sorry
if we could just find some time to just be together.

------------------------------------------

I know I made mistakes in that exchange, so I hope maybe you can help me see where I went wrong. I would also like to point out how she reacts when I bring up my feelings. This is how she reacts every time. She will says things like, "Fine, if that's how you feel, we should probably just divorce."

Also, she mentions in the last line that she just wishes we could find some time to just be together. We are CONSTANTLY together. She and I were together alone last night until the incident. She and I go on regular dates, about 5 or 6 per month. We spend all night together after she gets her daughter in the bed. And most of this is 'quality' time, not just us sitting in front of a TV or computer.

Thoughts?


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

She is riddled with toxic shame.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Go back and read my active listening post. Then reread your dialogue. Where you are responding to her with explanations or defending yourself, try one of the three active listening techniques instead. 

They should calm her and make her feel understood. When she is in that state, that is when you can explain to her why you did what you did.

And don't forget: what she most wants is to feel loved and safe with you. Anything that threatens that you will leave her is going to tense her up and probably stop effective communication.

You do seem needy in the dialogue. That must be what I was picking up on yesterday.

OP, until you can get your wife settled and calm and feeling like she can trust you to listen to her, you need to focus on meeting her needs, and not on her meeting yours.
@MEM11363. Could you please join the thread, if you have time? Your contributions would be valuable.

You can learn to work with your wife, OP. For right now, I want you to focus on learning those active listening techniques and practice using them. When used in a sincere effort to understand your wife, they are powerful and promote connection.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

jld said:


> Go back and read my active listening post. Then reread your dialogue. Where you are responding to her with explanations or defending yourself, try one of the three active listening techniques instead.
> 
> They should calm her and make her feel understood. When she is in that state, that is when you can explain to her why you did what you did.
> 
> ...


Why is it only important for me to listen to her? Should she not try to listen to me and hear my side?

Thanks for the response; looks like I am on a mission to understand Active Listening, and how to use it.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

OP, when I was first with my husband, back in the spring and summer of 1993, he listened to me for hours on end. I mean from the time he got off work until we went to bed. Six hours a day, plus most of the weekend he heard it all, all my thoughts and feelings from the past and present, especially the sadness and pain from my past. I just poured out my whole heart, laid everything in front of him. He learned my heart, and his compassion and empathy made me safe and comfortable with him. 

After about five months of this, I turned to him and said something like, "Do I wear you out with talking to you all the time?"

He responded. "J, you are a 100 watt bulb. And I am a nuclear power plant."

OP, be that nuclear power plant for your wife. At least as well as you can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

breathedeep said:


> Why is it only important for me to listen to her? Should she not try to listen to me and hear my side?
> 
> Thanks for the response; looks like I am on a mission to understand Active Listening, and how to use it.


You need to be the leader, because you have more capability right now. As she feels safer and calmer, you will be able to share more of your feelings, and have her really hear you, and not just shut down or get defensive.

Trying before she is ready will not work. It will just result in the frustration and dialogues you are currently having.

Patience, OP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Breathe,

What do you think you did during this exchange which caused her to escalate?

And lets start with a simple exercise. For each statement you made I'd like you to tag it, as one of the following based on how she would interpret it. 
1. You are the cause of this issue
2. We are the cause of this issue
3. I am the cause of this issue

And I also want you to identify statements that she might consider to see as somewhat threatening.  It's a particularly threatening statement when it takes the structure of: You make me feel bad, therefore I want to get away from you. 

By the way - people sometimes choose a screen name describing what they WANT. You often feel anxious yes? So breathe deep is a phrase that refers to an action which helps you feel 'less anxious' yes? And these exchanges with your wife, I want you to replay how you felt - when you read her responses - and for each of her responses, tag it as making you: more anxious, less anxious or having no effect. 

What did you mean when you said last night something blew up in your face?




breathedeep said:


> Thank you, jld. I will definitely need all the encouragement and ideas I can get. We have been arguing and bickering since last night. Conversation from today:
> 
> wife: im trying to not be frustrated but its hard.
> I came over to see you and talk about lunch and was hoping youd want to eat together but apparently not.
> ...


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

breathedeep said:


> Why is it only important for me to listen to her? Should she not try to listen to me and hear my side?
> 
> Thanks for the response; looks like I am on a mission to understand Active Listening, and how to use it.


Yes it is but you both are having trouble listening to the others point of view. Think you both could benefit from actively listening to one another but she has to be willing to participate in that as well. If she isn't then a counselor may be able to get you both on the same page


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Breathedeep, I'm not going to give you a whole lot of advice on techniques just yet. Until you are willing to do just about anything to bring your wife peace and let her know that she is loved, despite her flaws, you won't be ready for my own way of doing things in extreme situations. Besides, I'm not even sure that you even need to do any of the things I have had to do. You haven't worked the basics yet... Crawl, walk, run. 

First, look up active listening and follow jld's advice. Don't defend yourself. Even if things come across as an accusation, do not agree nor disagree with it, just repeat what she is saying so that SHE knows that you are listening to her. Paraphrase it, repeat it back, and ask her if you understood it the way she meant it. And post your response to MEMs suggestion. It's an exercise in awareness. 

If you can, find a way to tell your wife that you love her despite her flaws. Not that you think she is amazing, she makes you happy, etc. That you choose to love her regardless, and you are going to not only find a way to show her that, but you will also be learning to become the exact kind of man that she needs. As in, you choose to love her, and there is nothing she can do to change that. In my wife's case, when she is overwhelmed, I grab her face gently but firmly, look her right in the eyes, and I tell her that very thing. And I mean every word i say. 


Of course, make no such promise unless you are willing to mean it.

And, don't grab her face if it would scare her...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GA HEART (Oct 18, 2011)

Yes, she needs to listen to you too.


----------



## SaffronPower (Mar 6, 2011)

Has you wife had a physical lately? I think you need professional help with her.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

SaffronPower said:


> Has you wife had a physical lately? I think you need professional help with her.


She has not, but we have discussed it and I have encouraged her to do so. She has just turned 40 and I think she is procrastinating because she is worried about receiving any bad news.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Was able to turn things around yesterday and ended up having a great evening with my wife. I'll post updates and responses to questions after lunch. Now, off to a lunch date with my wife.


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"He responded. "J, you are a 100 watt bulb. And I am a nuclear power plant."

Did you laugh? Were you even tempted to laugh? Did you at least giggle?

Have to admit I laughed. The puffery of the statement conjures images of super heroes.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> "He responded. "J, you are a 100 watt bulb. And I am a nuclear power plant."
> 
> Did you laugh? Were you even tempted to laugh? Did you at least giggle?
> 
> Have to admit I laughed. The puffery of the statement conjures images of super heroes.


Not at all. I was in awe of him.


----------



## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

That sounds exhausting.


----------



## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

WHO TOLD YOU TO WORK WITH YOUR WIFE. I have been married for over 25 years but we worked a little and called it a day. My dad fired my mom. You too spend so much time together neither of you or on good behavior and you will get sick of one another. In an orderly fashion, without undue financial sacrifice, I'd consider changing this.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Sorry for the hiatus; work and home life have been kicking my butt. I have some free time so I thought I'd jump back in.

Quick update: things have been ok, not great. We have had little disagreements here and there but instead of an all-out fight, it seems we have both chosen to let disagreements go and move on. This has caused an undertone of tension between us, but no big blow ups until this morning. I'll get to that in a bit. So, for the past few days its been stressed, awkward feelings, with not alot of communication. Yesterday I tried to make things better, so while we were at work, I messaged her saying how I have been thinking about her all day and couldn't wait to get home and take advantage of her. She loves when I say things like that, and it helped for the remainder of the day. Then when it came time for business, she began crying again afterwards and was reluctant to tell me why. She finally told me she hates when we are not close, and just wants us to be ok. I agreed, said a few reassuring things to her, then we held each other and went to sleep.

This morning, I woke up in a good mood and was joking around with everyone while we were getting ready for work. I was helping her son get his tie on for school and noticed he had on my belt which happens to be way too big on him. I went to ask my wife about it, and she said he lost his somewhere in his room. Again, being in a good mood and joking, I said, "Yeah, I'm not surprised with his black hole of a room" (as most teenagers, his room is pretty messy and he tends to lose things quite often). She took GREAT offense to this and said, "His room is nowhere near as messy as your kid's rooms." This was an immediate mood killer and she could see my surprise on my face. She asked me if her comment made me upset and I said yes, that every time I make any kind of comment that she feels is against her or her kids, she has to turn it around and say something negative about me or my kids. This made her even more upset and she stormed out the door and got in her car to take her daughter to work.

A few minutes later, she began sending me the following text messages:

wife: Not to mention when you've complained about his room when not joking many times so I guess I shouldn't think that was a subtle jab?

Your "jokes" are frequently put downs. Or they're things that you don't like or upset you.

You say I am guilty of dishing it out but not taking it, you're probably correct about that, but so are you.

I'm sorry I flipped it on your kids that wasn't right. It's just hard to hear all the complaints about [her son]. I realize he is very difficult to deal with right now but I'm trying to fix it.

me: I just don't understand why you are allowed to 'give me and my kids $hit' as you always put it, but as soon as I do it, you get all pissed at me and say I am putting you down. Yet when I express that you have hurt my feelings with your 'jokes' you tell me I should get a thick skin and stop being a pu$%y, and you say "What? I am not allowed to give you $hit?"

The double standards in this house are causing a lot of problems that we need to address.

wife: You called me out on saying those things to you a long time ago and I don't recall saying those things recently to you. I told you then I shouldn't have said those things to you and apologized but you keep using them against me as if I said them last week.

me: You said that quote to me last week.

wife: You're right that there shouldn't be double standards, on either side because I feel there are plenty from you as well.

me: And quite frequently when you 'joke' with me and it bothers me a little.

wife: I said last week that you are a pu$%y?

me: no, the quote

wife: Then I will stop. It was never my intention to hurt you. I Was playing around. I won't do it anymore. I'm sorry.

me: OK. Thank you.

-------------------------

Then a few hours goes by with chit chat in between until she sends me this text:

wife: I want to ask you something if I can

me: of course

wife: You know yourself best and I know the answer to this if you were to ask me. Is it possible that you could get so down or upset with how things are between us that you would just walk and call it quits?

me: No. Not if we are both trying to make the situation better. Making an effort. Seeing a counselor.

wife: OK

--------------------------

And that's where we've left it for an hour or so. The problem is, I am becoming so emotionally exhausted, I am finding myself detaching more and more and not really caring much about my relationship with my wife. It is making me depressed and is effecting my job and my other relationships. I am withdrawing more and more, and finding that I really just want to sleep and be alone. Every time I think things are getting better and we are making progress, something happens and I find it increasingly to get motivated again.

Now on to MEM...



MEM11363 said:


> Breathe,
> 
> What do you think you did during this exchange which caused her to escalate?


I'm sure it had something to do with me saying I was becoming emotionally exhausted and needed an hour or two to myself. My thoughts in saying that was to be honest about how I was feeling. I have been reading No More Mr. Nice Guy and it says to be honest about your feelings so that you can have your needs met.



> And lets start with a simple exercise. For each statement you made I'd like you to tag it, as one of the following based on how she would interpret it.
> 1. You are the cause of this issue
> 2. We are the cause of this issue
> 3. I am the cause of this issue
> ...


See below



> By the way - people sometimes choose a screen name describing what they WANT. You often feel anxious yes? So breathe deep is a phrase that refers to an action which helps you feel 'less anxious' yes? And these exchanges with your wife, I want you to replay how you felt - when you read her responses - and for each of her responses, tag it as making you: more anxious, less anxious or having no effect.


I often feel anxious when I am with her, yes. And yes, that is what I tell myself in my head to calm me down and quiet the anxiety at the time.

What did you mean when you said last night something blew up in your face?[/QUOTE]

Long story short, a few days prior we had an argument during sex in which she stated she was wanting to 'grow more intimate with me', meaning, she was ready to try to have an orgasm with me *WHILE* we were having sex. This has always been an issue for her since her sexual abuse. She said she didn't want us to become 'one-trick ponies' and our sex life become dull. During the conversation, we agreed that she would instruct me on what I could do to help her have an orgasm during intercourse.

The next time we were having sex, I noticed she did not seem into it, so I began asking her for instructions. This upset her and she said that she didn't want an inquisition during sex, and things got so awkward that we just shut it down in the middle.

----------------------------------

wife: im trying to not be frustrated but its hard. [more anxious]
I came over to see you and talk about lunch and was hoping youd want to eat together but apparently not.[more anxious]
Thats fine. I give up[more anxious]

me: What? How was I supposed to know. You didn't say anything about it. [Wife is the cause]
If you had said you wanted to eat together, I would have been happy to. [Wife is the cause]
But I had no idea.

wife: no I didnt. because it would be nice if you actually wanted to spend time with me.[more anxious]
I was hoping youd want to.[more anxious]
but you arent motivated to spend time with me[more anxious]
thats fine.[more anxious]

me: Because of [Our Company CEO] saying we spend too much time together at work, and how we haven't been seeing each other at work anymore, I didn't know that lunch today was an option.
I thought our day for lunch was tomorrow.
So it isn't a matter of me not wanting to spend time with you, it is that you and I have talked about the current situation and I thought was were in agreement that we were not going to be spending as much time together. [We are the cause]
If you had wanted to have lunch together, you could have mentioned it and I would have said sure though. [wife is the cause]

wife: right and [Our Company CEO] isnt even here[more anxious]

me: Yes but people tell on us all the time
and [CEO's Husband] may be here

wife: I think we both know that the problem is during work hours and not really about lunch [no effect]
I just would like to see some interest[more anxious]
and you are SO distant and cold to me[more anxious]
I feel like I keep asking for things and its not recieved[more anxious]
I asked you to hurry last night when you said you were coming up[more anxious]
but you didnt. I even asked please and you were busy.[more anxious]

me: I said I was coming up after I exercised

wife: I know how it went[more anxious]

me: And I needed to clean the kitchen

wife: I have sought you out several times today and just...nothing[more anxious]

me: We are going to have to find a counselor soon because I cannot figure things out with us and I am becoming emotionally exhausted [wife is the cuase]

wife: Im sorry our relationship is doing that to you[more anxious]
Do you want things to be fixed? Do you want to be close to me? IE affectionate, physically or otherwise? please be honest [less anxious]

me: Yes, I want to fix us
I want us to be ok
That's all I want
I love you and want us to be ok
But I don't feel like you listen to my side of the story, and I know you don't feel like I hear you [we are the cause]
So we have to talk to someone who can ehlp us with that, so we can be fixed. [we are the cause]
Right now, I am to a point where I need some time away from you, time to myself so that I know we won't be arguing [wife is the cause]
After last night when we *TRIED* to be close and that blew up in my face, I just needed some time to my self [wife is the cause]
I am exhausted [wife is the cause]
I am trying to figure things out for me and for us, but nothing I do works [husband is the cause]

wife: ok. i will stay in [wife's daughter] room until you want me back with you. I will log off of messenger and will not text or contact you so you have some time away from me. If you want me, you know where I am.[more anxious]
If not, then I would appreciate you communicating that to me[more anxious]

me: See. when you do that, it doesn't help. That is only making things worse. [wife is the cause]

wife: You said you needed time away from me[no effect]

me: I try to tell you how I feel and you throw a tantrum every time. [wife is the cause]

wife: Im only trying to give you what you want. [more anxious]
this is a tantrum to you?[more anxious]
trying to accommodate what you just asked for?[more anxious]

me: Yes, taking your toys and going home, that's a tantrum [wife is the cause]

wife: that isnt confusing [no effect]

me: You confuse me every day [wife is the cause]

wife: as do you[more anxious]

me: Our relationship is confusing [wife is the cause]
And I was talking about last night.
Reread what I said
I was explaining last night.

wife: I dont know what you want. You want time away from me, so I accommodate that and that is throwing a tantrum. [no effect]

me: Not saying I wanted sepearation from you

wife: If you wanted time away from me last night you should have communicated that to me. [less anxious]

me: Taking an hour to exercise is not me wanting to be completely separate from you from now until I deem otherwise.

wife: I cant read your mind anymore than you can read mine [no effect]
I only wanted to try to fix things last night by asking you to hurry up [less anxious]
I wanted us to snuggle [less anxious]
thats it
I dont know what to do about the counselor. All of the ones that are on our insurance are crap [no effect]
they get bad ratings [no effect]

me: Then we need to find one that isn't on our insurance

wife: I have been researching, Ive spent several hours [no effect]
I am trying [less anxious]

me: And so have I, but you didn't like the ones I found either. [wife is the cause]
Or they got bad reviews as well

wife: you sent me one that EAP suggested. She gets horrible ratings. I dont want us to go into a situation where they wont be helpful to us
this is hard enough without having a crappy counselor [more anxious]

me: That's fine.

wife: Im not trying to be difficult [less anxious]

me: That's why I said we would keep looking

wife: I know. [less anxious]
im sorry [less anxious]
if we could just find some time to just be together [less anxious]

----------------------------

I think that is what you were looking for.

Thanks again for all of your help.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Just logged into Facebook and she sent me this link earlier in the day:

?I?m Not In Love With You Anymore? -


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Very helpful.

I was just trying to maybe help you see that the two of you ratchet up each other's anxiety. 

This is actually a common phenomenon. 

It is fixable, but you would need to lead that effort. 

By the way - joking with an anxious person - must be done carefully. 

Joking about their children, about sensitive subjects like rooms - is risky business. 

You both escalate quickly to some version of: I don't love you very much / want to get away from you.

A LOT of those type comments: you exhaust me emotionally, etc. are interpreted as - I WANT to leave you. 








breathedeep said:


> Sorry for the hiatus; work and home life have been kicking my butt. I have some free time so I thought I'd jump back in.
> 
> Quick update: things have been ok, not great. We have had little disagreements here and there but instead of an all-out fight, it seems we have both chosen to let disagreements go and move on. This has caused an undertone of tension between us, but no big blow ups until this morning. I'll get to that in a bit. So, for the past few days its been stressed, awkward feelings, with not alot of communication. Yesterday I tried to make things better, so while we were at work, I messaged her saying how I have been thinking about her all day and couldn't wait to get home and take advantage of her. She loves when I say things like that, and it helped for the remainder of the day. Then when it came time for business, she began crying again afterwards and was reluctant to tell me why. She finally told me she hates when we are not close, and just wants us to be ok. I agreed, said a few reassuring things to her, then we held each other and went to sleep.
> 
> ...


Long story short, a few days prior we had an argument during sex in which she stated she was wanting to 'grow more intimate with me', meaning, she was ready to try to have an orgasm with me *WHILE* we were having sex. This has always been an issue for her since her sexual abuse. She said she didn't want us to become 'one-trick ponies' and our sex life become dull. During the conversation, we agreed that she would instruct me on what I could do to help her have an orgasm during intercourse.

The next time we were having sex, I noticed she did not seem into it, so I began asking her for instructions. This upset her and she said that she didn't want an inquisition during sex, and things got so awkward that we just shut it down in the middle.

----------------------------------

wife: im trying to not be frustrated but its hard. [more anxious]
I came over to see you and talk about lunch and was hoping youd want to eat together but apparently not.[more anxious]
Thats fine. I give up[more anxious]

me: What? How was I supposed to know. You didn't say anything about it. [Wife is the cause]
If you had said you wanted to eat together, I would have been happy to. [Wife is the cause]
But I had no idea.

wife: no I didnt. because it would be nice if you actually wanted to spend time with me.[more anxious]
I was hoping youd want to.[more anxious]
but you arent motivated to spend time with me[more anxious]
thats fine.[more anxious]

me: Because of [Our Company CEO] saying we spend too much time together at work, and how we haven't been seeing each other at work anymore, I didn't know that lunch today was an option.
I thought our day for lunch was tomorrow.
So it isn't a matter of me not wanting to spend time with you, it is that you and I have talked about the current situation and I thought was were in agreement that we were not going to be spending as much time together. [We are the cause]
If you had wanted to have lunch together, you could have mentioned it and I would have said sure though. [wife is the cause]

wife: right and [Our Company CEO] isnt even here[more anxious]

me: Yes but people tell on us all the time
and [CEO's Husband] may be here

wife: I think we both know that the problem is during work hours and not really about lunch [no effect]
I just would like to see some interest[more anxious]
and you are SO distant and cold to me[more anxious]
I feel like I keep asking for things and its not recieved[more anxious]
I asked you to hurry last night when you said you were coming up[more anxious]
but you didnt. I even asked please and you were busy.[more anxious]

me: I said I was coming up after I exercised

wife: I know how it went[more anxious]

me: And I needed to clean the kitchen

wife: I have sought you out several times today and just...nothing[more anxious]

me: We are going to have to find a counselor soon because I cannot figure things out with us and I am becoming emotionally exhausted [wife is the cuase]

wife: Im sorry our relationship is doing that to you[more anxious]
Do you want things to be fixed? Do you want to be close to me? IE affectionate, physically or otherwise? please be honest [less anxious]

me: Yes, I want to fix us
I want us to be ok
That's all I want
I love you and want us to be ok
But I don't feel like you listen to my side of the story, and I know you don't feel like I hear you [we are the cause]
So we have to talk to someone who can ehlp us with that, so we can be fixed. [we are the cause]
Right now, I am to a point where I need some time away from you, time to myself so that I know we won't be arguing [wife is the cause]
After last night when we *TRIED* to be close and that blew up in my face, I just needed some time to my self [wife is the cause]
I am exhausted [wife is the cause]
I am trying to figure things out for me and for us, but nothing I do works [husband is the cause]

wife: ok. i will stay in [wife's daughter] room until you want me back with you. I will log off of messenger and will not text or contact you so you have some time away from me. If you want me, you know where I am.[more anxious]
If not, then I would appreciate you communicating that to me[more anxious]

me: See. when you do that, it doesn't help. That is only making things worse. [wife is the cause]

wife: You said you needed time away from me[no effect]

me: I try to tell you how I feel and you throw a tantrum every time. [wife is the cause]

wife: Im only trying to give you what you want. [more anxious]
this is a tantrum to you?[more anxious]
trying to accommodate what you just asked for?[more anxious]

me: Yes, taking your toys and going home, that's a tantrum [wife is the cause]

wife: that isnt confusing [no effect]

me: You confuse me every day [wife is the cause]

wife: as do you[more anxious]

me: Our relationship is confusing [wife is the cause]
And I was talking about last night.
Reread what I said
I was explaining last night.

wife: I dont know what you want. You want time away from me, so I accommodate that and that is throwing a tantrum. [no effect]

me: Not saying I wanted sepearation from you

wife: If you wanted time away from me last night you should have communicated that to me. [less anxious]

me: Taking an hour to exercise is not me wanting to be completely separate from you from now until I deem otherwise.

wife: I cant read your mind anymore than you can read mine [no effect]
I only wanted to try to fix things last night by asking you to hurry up [less anxious]
I wanted us to snuggle [less anxious]
thats it
I dont know what to do about the counselor. All of the ones that are on our insurance are crap [no effect]
they get bad ratings [no effect]

me: Then we need to find one that isn't on our insurance

wife: I have been researching, Ive spent several hours [no effect]
I am trying [less anxious]

me: And so have I, but you didn't like the ones I found either. [wife is the cause]
Or they got bad reviews as well

wife: you sent me one that EAP suggested. She gets horrible ratings. I dont want us to go into a situation where they wont be helpful to us
this is hard enough without having a crappy counselor [more anxious]

me: That's fine.

wife: Im not trying to be difficult [less anxious]

me: That's why I said we would keep looking

wife: I know. [less anxious]
im sorry [less anxious]
if we could just find some time to just be together [less anxious]

----------------------------

I think that is what you were looking for.

Thanks again for all of your help.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Blondie.TN (Dec 12, 2015)

Your relationship sounds just like mine, only we have a lot of other issues as well. I also walk on eggshells because I know if he is drinking he will blow up and if he's not drinking (which is only when he's working) then I can't bring things up either. I hate arguing. I'd be happy if I never argued with another human being ever. I live in a constant state of anxiety because of this.

I wish I could give you advice to help, but I can't. I will have to read this thread in full to see if anyone else has the answer. I wish you the best of luck.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Blondie.TN said:


> Your relationship sounds just like mine, only we have a lot of other issues as well. I also walk on eggshells because I know if he is drinking he will blow up and if he's not drinking (which is only when he's working) then I can't bring things up either. I hate arguing. I'd be happy if I never argued with another human being ever. I live in a constant state of anxiety because of this.
> 
> I wish I could give you advice to help, but I can't. I will have to read this thread in full to see if anyone else has the answer. I wish you the best of luck.


Have you started your own thread about your marriage? It sounds like you could use some help too.


----------



## Haiku (Apr 9, 2014)

Op - I just read a bit of the thread, so far. I saw you are open to marriage counseling. Have you gone together yet? If not are you in therapy yourself with a therapist?


----------



## Blondie.TN (Dec 12, 2015)

He won't go. He is afraid that people will see his alcoholism and point it out.


----------



## Blondie.TN (Dec 12, 2015)

technovelist said:


> Have you started your own thread about your marriage? It sounds like you could use some help too.


Yes, I started my own.


----------



## Troubled_Times (Dec 13, 2015)

breathedeep said:


> I try to be open to my own faults. One that I've realized with the help of this board is that I have classic Nice Guy syndrome. I am working on that, but it is a struggle since it goes against my nature of 37 years.
> 
> For the most part, I have good relationships with people. In my past relationships, I have NEVER been so stressed over the constant arguing and the feeling of walking on eggshells. Even when married to my ex wife, she and I didn't argue very often. Of course, when I bring this up to my current wife, she tells me this is because neither of us (me and my ex wife) really cared about each other like she (my wife) cares about me (meaning, issues are worth fighting for).


I am where you are after 10 years, and it made me seriously ill with depression and anxiety. I've come to the conclusion I am getting out, as a life lived in misery is no life at all. Your wife is EXACTLY the same as mine. Huge anger issues, problems keeping relationships, never taking the blame for anything, saying she is trying to change but not changing behaviour. Not meeting any of my needs regardless.


----------



## Lilac23 (Jul 9, 2015)

You're in disillusionment and she may be trying to tell you if you stick it out, you'll discover real love. I dont know about the whole dom/sub relationship but I think she wants you to take more of a leadership role in the family and relationship. Look how she acted when you defended your kids after her comment, she apologized and said she would work on it. Take charge and stop walking on eggshells, instead of questioning her to figure out what answer she wants, tell her what you want and feel but avoid the victim card and saying things like "you always" or "you never" it's a big turnoff. If you feel she is being unreasonable during an argument, tell her you will not discuss right now and walk away. But don't walk away indefinitely, perhaps give a "cool off" period of half an hour or so and tell her. I think with the whole "feminist" explosion, men have moved away from being the leaders of the family and into letting the wives decide or dictate the dynamics. This doesn't mean to disrespect or devalue her opinions and feelings but someone needs to guide the family out of this mess and she is a confused bundle of nerves and apprehension. Detachment and maintaining your cool are two different things.


----------



## Ayietim (Dec 14, 2015)

Some days are like that,
you wonder, 'Do I know this stranger?'
yes, you do, that is your better half,
in marriage, you learn something new about one another,
some pleasant and some, could make you angry and sad,
but hang in there,
the sum total could end well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Blondie.TN said:


> Your relationship sounds just like mine, only we have a lot of other issues as well. I also walk on eggshells because I know if he is drinking he will blow up and if he's not drinking (which is only when he's working) then I can't bring things up either. I hate arguing. I'd be happy if I never argued with another human being ever. I live in a constant state of anxiety because of this.
> 
> I wish I could give you advice to help, but I can't. I will have to read this thread in full to see if anyone else has the answer. I wish you the best of luck.


I don't like arguing either. This is the first time I have been in a relationship where arguing is the 'norm' and it is exhausting me emotionally. I try to talk to my wife about it, and she says that I am too sensitive and that every couple argues. I agree, but I just don't think it is normal to argue as often as she and I do.

Thank you for the well-wishes. I wish the same for you.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Haiku said:


> Op - I just read a bit of the thread, so far. I saw you are open to marriage counseling. Have you gone together yet? If not are you in therapy yourself with a therapist?


I have been trying to get her to go to marriage counseling with me for about a year now. Her attitude in the beginning was that she was too embarrassed to go because we weren't even married, and now that we are married, she says she is embarrassed that we need it at only 3 months into our marriage.

I was seeing a therapist by myself late last year and early this year, but his solution was for me stand up to her or leave her. I didn't want to do that, so I tried standing up to her and that only makes her angry. I have since stopped doing that because it's just easier to not say anything anymore.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Troubled_Times said:


> I am where you are after 10 years, and it made me seriously ill with depression and anxiety. I've come to the conclusion I am getting out, as a life lived in misery is no life at all. Your wife is EXACTLY the same as mine. Huge anger issues, problems keeping relationships, never taking the blame for anything, saying she is trying to change but not changing behaviour. Not meeting any of my needs regardless.


I have never been a depressed person until now. I actually used to pride myself in never having been depressed. Now I don't know any other way to be.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Lilac23 said:


> You're in disillusionment and she may be trying to tell you if you stick it out, you'll discover real love. I dont know about the whole dom/sub relationship but I think she wants you to take more of a leadership role in the family and relationship. Look how she acted when you defended your kids after her comment, she apologized and said she would work on it. Take charge and stop walking on eggshells, instead of questioning her to figure out what answer she wants, tell her what you want and feel but avoid the victim card and saying things like "you always" or "you never" it's a big turnoff. If you feel she is being unreasonable during an argument, tell her you will not discuss right now and walk away. But don't walk away indefinitely, perhaps give a "cool off" period of half an hour or so and tell her. I think with the whole "feminist" explosion, men have moved away from being the leaders of the family and into letting the wives decide or dictate the dynamics. This doesn't mean to disrespect or devalue her opinions and feelings but someone needs to guide the family out of this mess and she is a confused bundle of nerves and apprehension. Detachment and maintaining your cool are two different things.


I am trying to stick it out, but it is very difficult when my emotional needs aren't being met and I am on the end of her criticism and negativity.

We are back to our old ways now, so yes she apologized in the moment, but now things are back to being tense and stressed between us.

At the recommendation of the people here, I have now read, _No More Mr. Nice Guy_, _The Five Love Languages_, and read about several ideas such as sub/dom, active listening, etc... so I am trying and hopeful. I do not want to give up on our marriage; I want to come out on the other side and find 'real love.'


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

You paid a professional to advise you. You won't take his advice because it would require you to solve your own problem. No one can do this for you. You don't like being depressed? Do what the therapist told you to do. There are no magic solutions for you to latch onto. You married this woman knowing how she is and now you're a remorseful buyer. Either suck it up and divorce or suck it up and continue to be miserable but stop whining about it.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Quick update:

Finding a counselor has proven very difficult. I contacted our insurance company and got a few recommendations from them and presented them to my wife. She reviewed each of them and said they were all no good. I am still trying.

Her personal therapist recommended one, but they do not take our insurance. I told my wife that we may have to go outside of our insurance network to find a good one, but she refused and said we couldn't afford that. She has since stopped looking, but I am still trying to find one that meets her/our needs.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> You paid a professional to advise you. You won't take his advice because it would require you to solve your own problem. No one can do this for you. You don't like being depressed? Do what the therapist told you to do. There are no magic solutions for you to latch onto. You married this woman knowing how she is and now you're a remorseful buyer. Either suck it up and divorce or suck it up and continue to be miserable but stop whining about it.


My apologies. I didn't realize posting my situation here was whining. I thought that was what this message board was for.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Keep working on becoming stronger in yourself. 

Tell her if you cannot meet her needs and inspire her to meet yours, without coercion (threats and force), you will have to let her go. Tell her she deserves a man who can do that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

have you tried active listening yet?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

At first I thought to ask him that, too, Asla. But I don't think active listening will work if there is not inner strength and genuine caring behind it. 

Without that to back it up, it may just sound like a technique he is trying on her. He has to be able to hear whatever she says without becoming reactive. 

I don't think he is there yet. That is why I advise working on developing inner strength first.


----------



## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

breathedeep said:


> At the recommendation of the people here, I have now read, _No More Mr. Nice Guy_, _The Five Love Languages_, and read about several ideas such as sub/dom, active listening, etc... so I am trying and hopeful. I do not want to give up on our marriage; I want to come out on the other side and find 'real love.'



I commend you for your efforts to work on yourself. However...I hate to say it, but nothing that you improve or change about yourself is going to matter. You could be the perfect man, and she is STILL going to treat you like sh!t. Not only does she seem to be a straight up b!tch, but she has very serious, very deep rooted issues. Those issues are going to prevent her from having a successful relationship with ANYONE, EVER. THIS is your life for the next 50 years...how does that look to you? I know you don't want to give up, but this is who she is and this is how it will be...you would be wise to start making a plan to get yourself out.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

breathedeep said:


> I was active in sports until she and I got married. She felt like it interfered too much with our family time, so I put them on the back burner. I am reconsidering this decision and have decided that once March rolls around again (when the season starts), I'll get back into it.


 I haven't caught up yet, but wanted to point out that this is specifically addressed in a book that goes along with the book No More Mr Nice Guy (which I'm sure you've been advised to read by now. The other book is called Hold On To Your N.U.T.S. and it talks about how you have an obligation to your wife and family but, just like in the airplane, you also have an obligation to yourself, so that you ARE the best possible partner. Specifically talks about not giving up your sports.

ETA: I see it's already been recommended. 



> Tonight didn't go quite as planned. I went home early from work to get an early start on what I hoped to be a nice evening with my wife. Things proceeded fine up until about halfway through us 'being close' (sex) like she talk about earlier in the day. I could tell something was wrong with her, so I asked her if everything was ok. She said it was 'fine', but of course I know what 'fine' means. I asked if she wanted to switch up positions and she said she liked how things were going... except it seemed she wasn't liking how things were going so I asked her if she would like to be on top. She said she would do whatever I wanted, so we switched things up a bit. She became even more visibly agitated, so I asked her if she wanted me to do something specific to please her. I told her that I like it when she instructs me because it helps me know what she likes. She said, "I'm not looking for an inquisition here. I don't want to have to tell you what to do." I said that that was the only way I knew if I was doing something right for her and she said that if I wanted to know, she wasn't looking for acrobatics tonight, that she just wanted it to be sweet and special between us. I told her I cannot read her mind and if that is what she needed tonight she should have told me the first time I asked, but I was trying to do what she asked me to do the other night (we had an argument after sex the other night because she said she wanted to switch up things because they were becoming routine and she didn't want us to become a 'one-trick' pony, but that is another story for another time). She said, "We have always been able to reconnect in the past like this without me having to tell you what to do. I do not want to have to tell you what to do. That makes it awkward." Then it only went downhill from there. The argument was quite lengthy and I'll post more if anyone requests it.
> 
> I swear I will never be able to get this right.


In THIS situation, I would recommend that you learn more about being dominant in the bedroom. Stop asking what she wants. Just DO. Learn how to be seductive. Learn how to be macho. Women respond to strong men, not weak men, and certainly not uncertain men. She'll tell you if she doesn't like what you're doing.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

jld said:


> At first I thought to ask him that, too, Asla. But I don't think active listening will work if there is not inner strength and genuine caring behind it.
> 
> Without that to back it up, it may just sound like a technique he is trying on her. He has to be able to hear whatever she says without becoming reactive.
> 
> I don't think he is there yet. That is why I advise working on developing inner strength first.


well, there was inner strength and genuine caring when i used active listening with my wife, but it just ticked her off because she thought i was patronizing her. 

active listening will never work with her, regardless of who does it. sounds too much like the patronizing way her mother talks to her. 

doesn't mean it shouldn't be at least tried though.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> well, there was inner strength and genuine caring when i used active listening with my wife, but it just ticked her off because she thought i was patronizing her.
> 
> active listening will never work with her, regardless of who does it. sounds too much like the patronizing way her mother talks to her.
> 
> doesn't mean it shouldn't be at least tried though.


I do want him to use it. But I want him to be successful when he uses it. Otherwise I am afraid she may become suspicious, and he may feel discouraged.

But breathedeep, those are just *my* fears for you. It could be that you can start using it now just fine. The main thing is that you are able to hear whatever she says, however she says it, without getting defensive. You simply must be able to hear her without taking what she says personally. 

_It also really helps when you can straight out admit when you are wrong about something._

Are you Christian, breathedeep? 

Imagine how Jesus would listen to your wife, the depth of love, patience, and caring he would show for her. The wisdom. The calming presence. 

*That* is the kind of understanding and caring I am talking about here.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ok, caught up. First an observation and then a question.

Your wife's toxic shame is preventing her from accepting that she could be worth living, even. She KNOWS she doesn't deserve to be on this planet and she's just faking it til she dies, hoping that nobody recognizes her for the impostor that she is and shames her publicly to the world. We think about it every single day. Multiple times a day. How worthless we are. Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to fix. That said, maybe if you 'accidentally' run across the following book, and ask her to read it, she might recognize herself in it. If so, she could then take that information to her therapist and ask said therapist to give her concrete steps to combat it. Mine would do it by having me come up with actual examples where the 'TS Script' would run through my head, pretend someone else was doing it (whatever the thing was that I was doing), and then have me assess whether THAT person did something wrong or deserved to be punished. Of course, I couldn't say that they did. So the next step would be to correlate that to MY actions. How can MY 'thing' be wrong if it's not wrong when someone else does it? It takes long-term concrete rewiring of the brain to get past this, but it's possible. Depends on how much she really wants to get better. Also depends on whether you're going to continue to be her 'soother.' You know, she says 'I'm unworthy' and you say 'of course you're not.' As long as you keep feeding her that stuff, she'll continue to let you. And not look for a solution. This IS a case where a person might need a little tough love.

That's where the utter inability to be wrong comes from. The instant you say a single thing that shines a light on her, her toxic shame steel wall comes thundering down and she has to scramble to either point that light back on you or else just prove you wrong. Her fear of being found out compounds everything. Being wrong is one step away from 'look at how unworthy I am' - unacceptable to someone with toxic shame.

Next book for you: Healing The Shame That Binds You. Best book out there about toxic shame.

That said, she is EXTREMELY terrified of abandonment. So anything you say that even remotely looks like you won't stay sends her into panic and need for validation that she is, indeed, unworthy. Her brain floods and she can't do anything other than SOOTHE SOOTHE SOOTHE.

That's what all your books of texts are: her asking you to 'soothe' her. Prove to me prove to me prove to me prove to me.

The thing is, that's not healthy for either of you. Not for her because you're like a drug or a glass of wine: you dull the pain so she gets to skip another day of self-analysis. Not for you because, well, as you say, you're dying a death of a 1,000 needles. The NMMNG book SHOULD be helping you learn to stop enabling her. 

So, tell me what you learned from the book NMMNG and what changes you have made in your day-to-day interactions. You don't just read a book and stop being a Nice Guy. You have to come up with concrete steps for YOU to take to stop those bad habits and replace them with good ones. So, what steps?

Oh, and btw, skip the Eternal Search For The Perfect MC. She will NEVER agree to one because then she'd have to show all her pitifulness to a therapist. I know, you're thinking, but she GOES to a therapist. Ah yes, but THAT therapist is her compatriot on her journey and it's a fair bet that 90% of what she tells the therapist is stuff she makes up about the REST of you, as in, you're all the problem. Think the psychiatrist on Monk. I held back A LOT OF STUFF from my IC out of shame and self-flagellation.

If she were to go to a therapist with YOU, then YOU would be able to shame her, show all her unworthiness to the new MC and she would NEVER be able to live that down; she'd rather die. Trust me, she'd rather die. BTDT. 

So skip the MC, find your own IC, and start attending every single week, if you can. It needs to be often enough that you are practicing new steps to replace bad habits and so that your IC can monitor the progress and hold you accountable when you slip. You're going to tell this IC all about your wife, about NMMNG, about this thread, and you're going to print out this thread and hand it to him. Then you're going to ask him to help you fix you and MANAGE your marriage. 

It's possible that you can help her improve. But not without a ton of IC on YOUR part, and movement away from a Nice Guy. It's your dysfunction, after all, that attracted you to her and all her glorious dysfunction. YOU can be the person who pulls her out of the tar pit, if you educate yourself enough and change your behavior.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

if all she really wants is to feel like she is being heard, then active listening will work wonders. if there is something else going on, active listening wont. 

admitting when you are wrong is fine, so long as you dont admit to something you didn't do. 
nobody should ever admit to something that they did not do. 


but really, im starting to think that breathedeep needs to just start manning up.


----------



## Jeffyboy (Apr 7, 2015)

She might be Menopausal my wife was, and Boy some hormone treatments can save her!


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I can't LIKE this enough. 

Active listening, has two components to it: the mechanics and the spirit. It works like MAGIC when you have BOTH. 

It is a TOTAL FAIL when used as a mechanical set of steps that the listener is performing in the hope that their partner will stop drenching them in anxiety. 

The true spirit of active listening is that - in the moment - I am completely focused on YOU and your issues and emotions. This 'all about you' mindset is both clearly visible and very powerful. 

If instead you are tense, anxious and worried about yourself, your true focus will be INWARD FACING and the simple mechanical steps of active listening DO NOT WORK. 

If however you are able to recognize that your partners emotions are THEIR emotions, and refrain from making them yours, that is a huge step. Because that is what allows you to remain truly calm, which enables you to be fully OUTWARD FACING. 

Only reason I can describe this in such a fine grained manner is that I used to be so terribly bad at it. 

It took me a long, long, long time to get good at it. Totally worth the effort. 





jld said:


> At first I thought to ask him that, too, Asla. But I don't think active listening will work if there is not inner strength and genuine caring behind it.
> 
> Without that to back it up, it may just sound like a technique he is trying on her. He has to be able to hear whatever she says without becoming reactive.
> 
> I don't think he is there yet. That is why I advise working on developing inner strength first.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> I can't LIKE this enough.
> 
> Active listening, has two components to it: the mechanics and the spirit. It works like MAGIC when you have BOTH.
> 
> ...


i remember the first time i tried active listening. my wife's response baffled me at the time. the more calm i was, the more angry she got. the more i showed that i really wanted to understand how she felt, the more angry she got. 

some people just don't perceive things the way everyone else does.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Asla,
You are in good company. Many, many folks have told me that the transition to active listening was painful. 

And that like you, their partners initially had a highly allergic response to that technique. 

Perhaps the transition is difficult because it is such a different response then they are used to. 

The hard part for me was learning to be OUTWARD FACING. To not make it about me. 




As'laDain said:


> i remember the first time i tried active listening. my wife's response baffled me at the time. the more calm i was, the more angry she got. the more i showed that i really wanted to understand how she felt, the more angry she got.
> 
> some people just don't perceive things the way everyone else does.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Asla,
> You are in good company. Many, many folks have told me that the transition to active listening was painful.
> 
> And that like you, their partners initially had a highly allergic response to that technique.
> ...


im talking about a time before i had ever heard of the term active listening. back when my wife lied to me about a lot of things every day. 

it wasn't a sudden change. it was usually me trying to figure out what was going on, why was she angry, had i hurt her, etc. for the first year, i actually thought i could figure out how to be the man she needed by reassuring her and trying to understand her.

she would usually mask an accusation in an "i feel this" statement. like, "i feel you just want to get rid of me". she wasn't really telling me how she felt, she was telling me what she thought about my own feelings or intentions. she was telling me how she thought i viewed her. as useful as that information was, 
active listening was not an effective strategy. i could try and find the emotion she was feeling and say something to the effect of "you feel unloved?" but she would have none of it unless i included the accusation part. such a response would be met with "no, i feel like you are trying to shut me out and get rid of me". usually with a whole bunch of four letter words, and in response to simple things like asking her if she wants to go to the store with me.

if i said something to the effect of "you think i just want to drop you by the wayside, to be rid of you?" she would get even more angry, and reply with something along the lines of "yes!, you G** D*** MOTHER F****** D*** piece of S***!". if i continued to try and calm her down or understand what she was feeling that caused her anger, she would eventually escalate to full blown physical violence, sometimes hurling a plate at me, sometimes a butcher knife, or maybe the vacuum cleaner, etc.

her desire during those arguments was not to be heard. she had a very skewed view of reality, especially when something triggered an old deep seated fear of hers. 



i sometimes can practice active listening with her, but if my wife is already angry, her pattern has been to do anything and everything to escalate, unless she is being recorded or watched by a third party, during which times she does her best to remain calm(even thought she is not always able).

fortunately, nowadays if she gets angry, she has gotten very good at admitting it and asking for time to cool off, then will come back and apologize. then i can usually get her to just tell me what actual emotion she felt, what triggered her, and we can resolve it pretty quickly. 



now, all that said, i do not think this is what is going on in breathedeep's marriage. judging by that text exchange, if anyone is doing the majority of the projecting, its him.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Lots of good info here. Thank you all for that. I'll respond to most of what everyone posted as I can today and tomorrow.

In the meantime, a quick update:

She and I got into a pretty big argument last night after sex because I didn't do it correctly again. This led into us discussing the state of our relationship and she said she just doesn't feel like we are fixable anymore. At that point, I thought it would be a good time to try active listening. I thought about what I've read here and what I've read elsewhere, and I began asking her questions and repeating her answers the way I understood them. At first, she became extremely angry and started screaming at me, but I was able to keep calm and continue actively listening to her, and she eventually calmed down and we had a productive conversation after that. I was quite surprised how well it worked once she was able to calm down. The conversation focused on how I am not meeting her emotional needs, and what I can do to change that.

Once that part of the conversation wound down, she asked me some of the same questions I asked her: 'How am I failing to meet your needs?', 'What can I do to better meet your needs?' etc... I hesitated, because I know she gets extremely defensive anytime I bring up where I think she could be a better spouse to me, but I told told her my thoughts and feelings anyway. She reacted how she typically does, getting angry, defensive, and then she said, "Are you listening to this conversation? Do you hear how stupid what you are saying sounds?" That hurt my feelings a bit, but I tried to remain as calm as I could and explain to her that we each have our emotional needs met in different ways, and just as how her emotional needs are met by me doing the things she and I discussed only a few minutes earlier, my emotional needs are met by her doing (or not doing in some cases) what I had just expressed to her. She was unable to understand how the things I was explaining would help meet my emotional needs were the same as the things she was explaining to me would meet her emotional needs. She said she was asking for love and affection and I was asking for petty things like for her to not be so critical and negative of me. Unfortunately, I was unable to make any progress with this and it was after midnight, so we agreed to talk about it more this weekend.

On my way in to work this morning, she sent me a text:

"I am sorry for the way I was behaving last night."

I think active listening was definitely useful. I was worried she would take it as me being condescending or patronizing, but she was much more receptive to it than I thought she would be. I am going to keep practicing, hoping to get better at it. It is much more difficult than one might imagine.


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

As'laDain said:


> now, all that said, i do not think this is what is going on in breathedeep's marriage. *judging by that text exchange, if anyone is doing the majority of the projecting, its him.*


I would really like more insight into this. If I am projecting, I need to be aware so that I can change this. Can you illustrate what I am doing that is projecting so that I can better understand?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hey, that is really good! 

Just remember not to take what she says personally. Just listen humbly, trying to hear what her heart is trying to tell you.

And she clearly does love you, with sending that apology this morning.

Speaking our truth, calmly and clearly, really affects other people's consciences. Even if they get upset, if we are honest and sincere, they will likely reflect on what we have shared with them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

jld said:


> Hey, that is really good!
> 
> Just remember not to take what she says personally. Just listen humbly, trying to hear what her heart is trying to tell you.
> 
> ...


She does love me, I don't doubt this. I love her too. That is the reason I do not want to just give up so easily as others have suggested.

Right now, our baggage is getting in the way of things. I am trying to find a way to unload some of mine and work with hers until she decides to do the same.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

breathedeep said:


> She does love me, I don't doubt this. I love her too. That is the reason I do not want to just give up so easily as others have suggested.
> 
> Right now, our baggage is getting in the way of things. I am trying to find a way to unload some of mine and work with hers until she decides to do the same.


Keep up the active listening. Keep up the heartfelt communication. 

Be willing to be the leader. Inspire her with your own good example. I think she will come along. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

jld said:


> Keep up the active listening. Keep up the heartfelt communication.
> 
> Be willing to be the leader. Inspire her with your own good example. *I think she will come along. *
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, she wont. She isn't a normal person, she is not going to respond in the way that normal people would. She may play along for a bit, but she will always come back around to who she is. You cannot nice someone out of a mental issue.


----------

