# Former Christian but wife still believes



## Misfits

I'm not looking for a theological debate. I'm interested in hearing thoughts on how to make things work in the marriage and with raising children. I grew up in a religious setting. 10 years ago I met my wife with the premise that I was a christian albeit in need of work, and with aspirations of becoming a better christian. After the birth of our son 7 years ago I started having doubts. I started reading sources, listening to podcasts, and thinking outside the comforts of pro christian views. I've always had some doubts but was nervous of venturing away from pro christian sources to find my answers.

So here I am today. A solid atheist. I've never felt better nor more liberated in my spiritual views - well lack there of. However my wife is very much a christian and wants to increase our christian activities - like go to church more etc.

Here's the rub: our kids. At this point I'm ok with them going to church and believing in things like Noah and the bible. In fact I think it paints a better picture for questions on death - oh grandma is in heaven and we'll see her again someday. I think theres nothing wrong with these views...for now. But i've made it crystal clear to my wife that when the time comes when they are in early teens (or sooner) and they develop deeper cognitive abilities and question things, I'll not hold back my knowledge or what current history, archeology, science etc... has to say about things.

This is very challenging for my wife. Our marriage is rocky as it is. This puts more stress on it. Has anyone out there overcome such a difference in views. I feel like I betrayed her in a sense because when we met and during the first part of marriage I was very much pro christian and wanted to become a "stronger" christian. She married me under those conditions. I can no longer fulfill that. This isn't some mid-life crises either- You could sooner convince me that the Mormon, muslim, hindu religion is real. I'll never again believe in the bible. so it's not a phase. I think she hopes (and prays) that i'll return to faith. That will not happen. Id rather not divorce over this since I'm in this for the kids. But I dont want a hostile environment either.

I was sort of hoping that civilized discussions could ensue and she'd maybe listen to my side. She's never been one to explore the real history or reasons behind her beliefs. She's in the camp that the bible is real because it says so and God made it. The few little talks we have were disastrous resulting in her being offended. I think she's threatened by my views and is perhaps worried that it could impact her fragile faith. Secretly I was hoping to deconvert her to avoid this whole mess but instead it becomes an argument with her getting pissed.


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## Married but Happy

IMO, let her go her way with her belief, and you go yours. It's up to you if you go to church "for the kids", but I wouldn't - and when they're old enough, I would explain my position and let them choose for themselves to believe or not, and in what. Focus on your marriage aside from the religious aspect, and see how it goes. She may begin to think or talk to you about it, or else shut you out - be prepared for either, I suppose.


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## Misfits

Married but Happy said:


> IMO, let her go her way with her belief, and you go yours. It's up to you if you go to church "for the kids", but I wouldn't - and when they're old enough, I would explain my position and let them choose for themselves to believe or not, and in what. Focus on your marriage aside from the religious aspect, and see how it goes. She may begin to think or talk to you about it, or else shut you out - be prepared for either, I suppose.


Yes absolutely - I agree that they can chose their own belief system. I'll not harp on them. I'll simply answer questions. But here's the thing. Staying for the kids makes financial and logistical sense. We are not at each other's throats on a daily basis. With combined income and one household, we can provide a fantastic life and opportunities for the kids - opportunities that would not be possible with split households. I'm talking sports, education, etc... Things that will equip them with a much better shot at the rat race they'll deal with when they get older.


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## Married but Happy

Staying together makes sense if you still have a marriage that works. Staying only for the kids is usually a mistake, IMO - they will learn how to have a loveless and dysfunctional relationship if the marriage isn't decent.


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## gouge_away

Yes billions of couples over centuries have overcome this.

I hope you continue to stand for the vows you made to your wife. Likewise her vows she has made to you.


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## Steve1000

With kids involved, allow your wife to teach them whatever she wants and if the kids ask you what you think, do not lie to them. You shouldn't undermine you wife and tell them that their mother is wrong, but instead this is a good exercise to show them that belief in religious teachings requires faith; some have it (their mother) while some do not (you).


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## norajane

My SO's parents were/are religious, and he ended up an atheist when he started questioning what he was being taught. Decades later, he feels his parents wasted years of his life teaching him that religious mythology was real history. 

Point being, kids have minds of their own and they will use them, if they are so inclined, regardless of what religious teachings they receive, or don't receive. Teach your kids to think, and they will.

So, explain to your wife that you are teaching the kids to think, to learn about history, archaeology, physics, astronomy, etc. Religion is her department and you are content for her to teach her beliefs. Ask her to trust that your kids will hear all the lessons and will develop their faith and beliefs for themselves. If she trusts in God, then she should trust that he's looking out for her kids.


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## Aspydad

Sorry OP, but your story does not seem to hold water. When I read what you say, it makes me doubt that you were ever a Christian. So what I see here is a story line more like: I lied to my wife that I was a Christian - then, tried to become one, but just never really understood it. So here I am - I am an atheist and my wife is a Christian and wow- what about my kids?

Maybe I am wrong??

Can you explain to me OP what you think a Christian is? or, to put it another way- what is required for someone to be a Christian?


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## happy as a clam

Misfits said:


> She's never been one to explore the real history or reasons behind her beliefs. She's in the camp that the bible is real because it says so and God made it. The few little talks we have were disastrous resulting in her being offended.


Herein lies your real problem.

Forget your wife's "beliefs"...

The fact that she questions nothing, and YOU do, is the real issue. It's hard to reconcile naiveté.... (and I happen to be a Christian)


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## Aspydad

norajane said:


> My SO's parents were/are religious, and he ended up an atheist when he started questioning what he was being taught. Decades later, he feels his parents wasted years of his life teaching him that religious mythology was real history.
> 
> Point being, kids have minds of their own and they will use them, if they are so inclined, regardless of what religious teachings they receive, or don't receive. Teach your kids to think, and they will.
> 
> So, explain to your wife that you are teaching the kids to think, to learn about history, archaeology, physics, astronomy, etc. Religion is her department and you are content for her to teach her beliefs. Ask her to trust that your kids will hear all the lessons and will develop their faith and beliefs for themselves. If she trusts in God, then she should trust that he's looking out for her kids.


Well,l if the wife had no concern if her children would spend eternity apart from her when the family has all passed, then your idea would be ok. Problem is if his wife is a Christian, she believes there is a Heaven and a Hell (which is a place separate from where she is heading as a Christian). So what you are talking about is eternal life and death - you really think a true christian would let an Atheist lead her children astray?

Also - you believe that his wife should just let God worry about what happens to her children?? Really - should his wife simply stop feeding her kids as well - because if God really cared he would just have angels send down food?


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## Misfits

Aspy- that's a good question since being a Christian means many different things depending on the time and place you were born and the particular denomination or church you attend. I was of the flavor that Christianity isn't a religion but a relationship with Jesus. I read the bible and prayed somewhat regulary and attended one of the non-denomination mega-church but raised a Presbyterian. I know it's not uncommon for Christians to accuse the deconverted of having never been a Christian in the first place. I assume that has something to do with once the Holy Spirit enters you it never leaves therefor you never had it to begin with. I assure you I was perusing a stronger faith and wanted to be a stronger Christian when I got married. I only wanted to marry a Christian woman so I could raise our kids with the same beliefs. 

That was before. Today I don't believe in what the bible has to say and certainly don't follow it. I can't reconcile that the God of the bible is real - logically or historically. There might be a god - I can't disprove that. But I know now that what I was taught and believed my entire life was false and based on a cultural tradition - with good intentions to be sure.

The problem now is there are countless damaging things religion can so to a person. It can riddle them with guilt - especially if they are gay. I'd like my kids to have the Christian view but more importantly I want them to have a skeptics view - something that if was available to me long ago I certainly wouldn't have "tricked" my wife into marriage. I would've been an athiest and looked for an atheist partner. My kids will have a perspective that may or may not cause them to doubt biblical beliefs. This is a good thing. But I worry that my wife will see my views as a threat to the children because of eternal damnation and all that. Not something that is real, can be seen, nor tested. Something purely made up and with different meanings based again on the interpretation of the same book. This concerns me because she will be protecting the children in her mind. That could be a problem down the road. Right now it's not because I think the heaven idea and story is great for young minds - I don't want them worried about the idea of death at their age.


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## Misfits

Oh and if a wife made it to heaven but her children went to hell. Is the wife really in a place of peace and happiness everlasting knowing she would never see her children again and knowing they are suffering eternally? Seems to me that would be hell for both the mother and the child


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## Aspydad

Misfits said:


> Oh and if a wife made it to heaven but her children went to hell. Is the wife really in a place of peace and happiness everlasting knowing she would never see her children again and knowing they are suffering eternally? Seems to me that would be hell for both the mother and the child


You know, you make a very good point. But, for me I see the pain being here on earth knowing that my child has rejected Jesus, who I view as my creator, the Grace that a loving God has given them as a free gift. And further more, knowing that here on earth, my child will one day be absolutely alone - with NO HOPE- except for the Hope of a death that results in separation from God forever. I will admit, Heaven is a mystery for me and all that I know about it is what Jesus stated. Also, all I know about Hell is that it is a place NOT in heaven - and that it is not a place one should desire to be - for all I know it is something like Africa - where people are starving or something - but, I do not Know. So I focus on Heaven. As a matter of fact, I tend to HOPE that people that go to HELL will actually get another chance - but, that sure has not been promised - so I am one to just focus on my final destination. Kind of like when one plays golf - if you have a long narrow fairway - if you worry about the rough and trees - or out of bounds - your brain is going to hit it to one of those bad locations - but, if you can focus on a point down the middle - chances are you will hit it down the middle.

I see that you attended Church, studied the bible, and have intellectual knowledge about religion. But, you have missed the point as many others do. It is like wall or silencer is placed in some peoples brain - and they just cannot receive the free gift of Grace that God gives - and the result of this Grace is Faith in Jesus. I am not saying that that wall will never be broken down for you - but it seems to me that the older one gets, the more knowledge that one acquires, the harder it is to become a believer through faith.

I know that I cannot change your mind. You and I could debate all year long about science. I will tell you that Scientists do not have all the answers - and you will say these scientists are brilliant - and yes they do. And on and on we go. I know you have no desire here to engage in a discussion like this. So all I can do is pray for you - that you will keep searching, keep learning, and even keep praying for God to lift the wall.

One more thing - there is only one Christian Church and the members of that Church are members of the Kingdom of God. That Kingdom is in Heaven but extends down to earth and the residents here on earth are just visitors here. And the only thing required to be a citizen of that Kingdom is to bow down before Jesus and proclaim that he is the Only Begotten Son of God - that he was born of a virgin, he lived a sinless life here on earth, he fulfilled what was written in the Old Testament, He was unjustly convicted in a court of law, he was crucified, buried for three days, and most importantly (and this is what separates Jesus from the prophets) Jesus defeated death and came back to life - he appeared to his followers - and they give witness to this fact - and that Jesus is now seated at the right hand of God - and he will judge ALL and holds the keys to the KINGDOM. 

You may say there are thousands of religeons - but if any one of these varies one bit from what I have stated - they are not part of the ONE CHURCH ESTABLISHED BY CHRIST.


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## norajane

Aspydad said:


> Well,l if the wife had no concern if her children would spend eternity apart from her when the family has all passed, then your idea would be ok. Problem is if his wife is a Christian, she believes there is a Heaven and a Hell (which is a place separate from where she is heading as a Christian). So what you are talking about is eternal life and death - you really think a true christian would let an Atheist lead her children astray?
> 
> Also - you believe that his wife should just let God worry about what happens to her children?? Really - should his wife simply stop feeding her kids as well - because if God really cared he would just have angels send down food?


All I'm saying is both parents could be devout Christians and their kids still might choose not to be Christians when they are adults. That's something any Christian family faces because kids do have minds of their own and will use them to think and make their own choices, not always the way their parents want. So if his wife teaches her faith, that's the best she can do and the rest is up to God.


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## Aspydad

norajane said:


> All I'm saying is both parents could be devout Christians and their kids still might choose not to be Christians when they are adults. That's something any Christian family faces because kids do have minds of their own and will use them to think and make their own choices, not always the way their parents want. So if his wife teaches her faith, that's the best she can do and the rest is up to God.


You are correct that we all have a choice that no one else can make. as a matter of fact - no one on earth knows if any one else is really a believer as we do not have the power to look down into someone soul - there is only one judge.

I do know this - my job is to share the truth with my children (which I have done) and to protect them from EVIL. As Jesus' Word states - woe unto those who cause my children to stumble.

You are incorrect in the conclusion that your husband will never accept Jesus as his lord and savior and thus enter into the kingdom. It is never too late!!!

Now wouldn't that be bad for him if he came to believe and you never did?? I mean him in heaven and you not. And please, do not try to tell me that that could never happen.

I actually think this happens more than any one knows - one spouse dies, the other is down on his knees - and BAM - he sees the light. Oh how God will rejoice - but, how bitter sweet for the husband as he would have gained eternal life in the Kingdom - but, the wife is not there.

It is a falsehood to believe that there is not sadness in Heaven as I know that Jesus weeps for all lost souls, but at the same time rejoices for all Who WHERE LOST but chose to turn back to HIM.


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## jb02157

You met and married her with her having the impression that you would continue to be a Christian. You betrayed this, posing to be a Chistian. She has the right to expect you to be a Christian and to divorce you if you believe differently now.


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## phillybeffandswiss

If he actively and purposely hid his atheism, it would be a betrayal IMO. Changing your belief system, over time, is not a betrayal.


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## Married but Happy

jb02157 said:


> You met and married her with her having the impression that you would continue to be a Christian. You betrayed this, posing to be a Chistian. She has the right to expect you to be a Christian and to divorce you if you believe differently now.


What nonsense. Yes, she can choose to divorce him if she wishes, but he did not "pose" as anything but what he believed at the time.


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## jb02157

Married but Happy said:


> What nonsense. Yes, she can choose to divorce him if she wishes, but he did not "pose" as anything but what he believed at the time.


You're only proving that you can't read. He clearly met her with her believing he was a Christian.


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## Misfits

True. If she wanted a divorce over it then I can't stop her. I doubt she would over this though - other things about me perhaps. People change. I can't just be a Christian again no more than you could switch faiths. You can't make yourself believe in something that you don't believe. I'd love to have all the knowledge and experience I have today back when I was 20. I already said we wouldn't have married. Neither of us would've wanted to. But here we are. Regardless of divorce, the kids will always here a theist and an antitheist view. I was just looking for someone in the same situation and how it worked out. I'm particularly more interested in when the kids are pre-teen or close to it and have questions. I'm worried that she will tell them something like the world flooded and God had Noah build the boat. Then I'll have to explain that there is no evidence of this other than some ancient writings that were influenced/borrowed from other culture's writings. And so on. I'll just cross that bridge when we get there I guess


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## Tasorundo

You could always just say "I don't know if there was a Noah or an Ark, here is what we know about it.........". The way you phrased it was directly confrontational and antagonistic to what your wife 'may' say.


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## Married but Happy

jb02157 said:


> You're only proving that you can't read. He clearly met her with her believing he was a Christian.


Who's illiterate, my friend? 



> I met my wife with the premise that *I was a christian *albeit in need of work, and with aspirations of becoming a better christian. After the birth of our son 7 years ago I started having doubts.


Now if the OP cares to say otherwise, I'll grant your point.


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## Aspydad

Misfits said:


> The problem now is there are countless damaging things religion can so to a person. It can riddle them with guilt - especially if they are gay.
> 
> *Dude, Do you not understand that Jesus died on the cross as a sacrifice for ALL SINS. If a person is GAY and has accepted Jesus as his Lord - then he is as white as SNOW!! Or another words FORGIVEN.*
> 
> I'd like my kids to have the Christian view but more importantly I want them to have a skeptics view - something that if was available to me long ago* I certainly wouldn't have "tricked" my wife into marriage*.
> 
> *Sorry buddy - but this tells the story.*
> 
> I would've been an athiest and looked for an atheist partner. My kids will have a perspective that may or may not cause them to doubt biblical beliefs. This is a good thing. But I worry that my wife will see my views as a threat to the children because of eternal damnation and all that. Not something that is real, can be seen, nor tested. Something purely made up and with different meanings based again on the interpretation of the same book. This concerns me because she will be protecting the children in her mind. That could be a problem down the road. Right now it's not because I think the heaven idea and story is great for young minds - I don't want them worried about the idea of death at their age.
> 
> *YUP - this is going to be a problem - I have seen it!!*
> 
> *******************
> Sorry Married but HAPPY, but see above - he tells it like it is - "tricked his wife" which is what I suspected.
> 
> He also really does not understand what a Christian is - totally blind to it.
> 
> Any Christian knows that one believes by Faith Only (as you cannot see God and certainly were not there to see the writing of the Gospels - or, The Old Testament for that matter.) As a matter of fact - one must have Faith to be an Atheist - as an Atheist was not there in the beginning either and certainly was not there when the History that it is said contradicts the Bible was written - All Faith I tell you.
> 
> Out of the OP's own mouth - "I was trying to pursue a stronger Faith" - I say stronger Faith than what?
> 
> Sorry, but I can read right through the OP here. He knows what he did.


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## Married but Happy

Aspydad said:


> Misfits said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry Married but HAPPY, but see above - he tells it like it is - "tricked his wife" which is what I suspected.
> 
> He also really does not understand what a Christian is - totally blind to it.
> 
> 
> 
> We need OP to clarify, but I don't read it the way you do. I read it as saying he didn't and would not have tricked his wife into marrying - and couldn't have - because back then he didn't know what his beliefs would become.
> 
> I won't argue the theology with you, because we simply wouldn't be able to agree on anything. I doubt anything you're espousing will change his mind about his beliefs, anyway.
Click to expand...


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## mupostori

Also, all I know about Hell is that it is a place NOT in heaven - and that it is not a place one should desire to be - for all I know it is something like Africa

Ouch that hurt .If you want to go to hell just go to Africa. IN future please refrain from making such irresponsible statements.


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## Misfits

Look aspy- I'm not sure what the advantage to me or anyone would be to pretend that I was a Christian so I could marry a Christian? I know it takes faith to believe this stuff. It has to because without faith, you can't get around the issues of the bible and religion in general. To me none of it makes sense. You won't change my mind on that - I've had about 25 years in the faith so I'm well aware of your points. I've heard it all before by many different sources. 

And if you think it takes faith to be an atheist then you're ignorant of what atheism is. I simply don't believe any of the religious sources. I'm not making a claim of knowledge that God doesn't exist. I'm simply not buying into any of the bible Or apologetic arguments for it - at least none of the ones I've heard. If there was a god, he could produce much better evidencd and communicate to us in a far more efficient and clear means than the bible. Heck I think anyone could come up with a better system to get the message out - even without Devine powers. Think of it this way - you likely have an atheistic view on Hinduism, Greek gods, etc... You simply don't believe them or their sources and don't acknowledge that those gods are real. Well that's me about all religions and gods. Not that I looked into them all - I think it'd be a waste of time but I can paint them all with the same broad brush of disbelieve. I can't say they are all wrong with 100% certainty. I just highly doubt them.

Well look there - theological debate. Not surprising. 

So nobody here in my situation then Huh?


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## Sandie

jb02157 said:


> You're only proving that you can't read. He clearly met her with her believing he was a Christian.


That's mean and wrong.


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## gouge_away

Misfits said:


> Oh and if a wife made it to heaven but her children went to hell. Is the wife really in a place of peace and happiness everlasting knowing she would never see her children again and knowing they are suffering eternally? Seems to me that would be hell for both the mother and the child


God is much bigger than mom and dad, if He plans for you to spend eternity with Him, He is going to see that happen.


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## gouge_away

If he leaves her, she is obliged to let him go, but she would be sinning by leaving him over this.

Most likely she's going to make her family her mission field.

That seems to be what she intends to do, and she is following that call.

At least your wife stands for something OP, don't assume she's the naïve one that falls for anything.


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## Aspydad

mupostori said:


> Also, all I know about Hell is that it is a place NOT in heaven - and that it is not a place one should desire to be - for all I know it is something like Africa
> 
> Ouch that hurt .If you want to go to hell just go to Africa. IN future please refrain from making such irresponsible statements.


You are correct. I should not have wrote it that way. When I think of Africa, I think of drought and starvation - I see flies everywhere - and I am sure the entire country is not like that - it is just what I have seen on TV. That was my point by the way. Maybe I should have referred to the death camps that Hitler set up instead.


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## mupostori

"If there was a god, he could produce much better evidencd and communicate to us in a far more efficient and clear means than the bible".

He is sovereign he communicates to his creation in a way he pleases .


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## Aspydad

Misfits said:


> Look aspy- I'm not sure what the advantage to me or anyone would be to pretend that I was a Christian so I could marry a Christian? I know it takes faith to believe this stuff. It has to because without faith, you can't get around the issues of the bible and religion in general. To me none of it makes sense. You won't change my mind on that - I've had about 25 years in the faith so I'm well aware of your points. I've heard it all before by many different sources.
> 
> And if you think it takes faith to be an atheist then you're ignorant of what atheism is. I simply don't believe any of the religious sources. I'm not making a claim of knowledge that God doesn't exist. I'm simply not buying into any of the bible Or apologetic arguments for it - at least none of the ones I've heard. If there was a god, he could produce much better evidencd and communicate to us in a far more efficient and clear means than the bible. Heck I think anyone could come up with a better system to get the message out - even without Devine powers. Think of it this way - you likely have an atheistic view on Hinduism, Greek gods, etc... You simply don't believe them or their sources and don't acknowledge that those gods are real. Well that's me about all religions and gods. Not that I looked into them all - I think it'd be a waste of time but I can paint them all with the same broad brush of disbelieve. I can't say they are all wrong with 100% certainty. I just highly doubt them.
> 
> Well look there - theological debate. Not surprising.
> 
> So nobody here in my situation then Huh?


No, it does take FAITH to be an atheist = especially if your not quite sure if God exists or not - lets see:

If you don't believe God exists - you have FAITH that somehow, against all odds ( I mean huge) that life would just magically appear from NOTHING. Take whatever Theory you like (non of them ever proven by the way) and its all the same - Atheist has FAITH that we are just here by LUCK.

Say you do believe a God created us - you have FAITH that this GOD - that created a UNIVERSE LARGER THAN YOU CAN FATHOM - cannot have willed the Bible to be written by man in such a way that HE is considered the author. Because I tell you - the only way you can make that claim is if you KNOW - and I can promise you - UNLESS YOU ARE A GOD - you DO NOT KNOW.


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## Married but Happy

mupostori said:


> "If there was a god, he could produce much better evidencd and communicate to us in a far more efficient and clear means than the bible".
> 
> He is sovereign he communicates to his creation in a way he pleases .


A convenient excuse for all kinds of nonsensical and illogical behaviors. A God probably wouldn't be so inconsistent and irrational - else he'd be human and a human construction.


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## mupostori

how is God inconsistent ?


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## gouge_away

mupostori said:


> how is God inconsistent ?


HE keeps making things new, and pretends to forget stuff from the past.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano

I think all the discussion about if him stepping away from Christianity is wrong needs to stop. He purposefully asked those who viewed his thread to not make a judgement on his path but to give him advice as to how to make his marriage work with differing views as well as to raise his children.

Discussing Jesus dying on the cross, whether atheism is better or not, or talking about the personality of God is not what this thread is for. 

We should seek to uplift the OP in his post and to help him with his problem, regardless of our religious orientation, instead of trying to make the point that my viewpoint is most correct and brow-beating him and other posters into agreeing with us.


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## Tasorundo

The problem in this thread is that he is only responding to the religious debate. I made a point about how the way he worded what he would say to his kids was a problem, nothing to say about faith or religion, and it went un-noticed.

The OP's situation can work just fine, if he isn't condescending and antagonistic about it. However, from all appearances here, he is, so no, it wont work.


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## rich84

OP, there are some passionate folks on here that feel the need to defend their beliefs as if the absence of your belief is an outright attack. You and I both know the power of religious conviction and faith. I believe that you are correct in assuming that this divide in your beliefs with your wife is a serious problem that could be a deal breaker. Only you and your wife can determine that. I think you need to sit down with her and have a discussion about whether she can accept your lack of belief in Christianity. You also would need to accept her beliefs without judgement. It sounds like you think less of her for not discrediting her belief system. If you BOTH can accept that it is ok for two people to have a solid marriage without agreement on this issue then you might be able each instill in your children different viewpoints so that they can make their own decisions. However, if her belief is that you are coming between your children and their salvation, you have a major problem. 

I grew up in a strict Christian household. Somewhere along the way I questioned things and came to the conclusion that I don't believe any of it. Going into my marriage I still had mixed feelings and I had not made that conclusion yet. My wife believes in Christianity, but does not practice it. Therefore, she believes we're both going to hell. It doesn't seem to trouble her all that much. We don't really talk about it either. One time it came up and she mentioned that if I no longer believed it would be a problem for her. However, I'm not evangelizing my non-belief and trying to convert her. Why would we proclaim a non-conviction? I am not passionate about my belief that there is no God. I just admit it to myself and move on. You are creating tension by trying to get her on board. Can you accept her beliefs as something that brings her life meaning and stability? You're asking her to do that with acceptance of your non-belief.


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## Sandie

Aspydad said:


> If you don't believe God exists - you have FAITH that somehow, against all odds ( I mean huge) that life would just magically appear from NOTHING.


So if you bielive in GOD then you think GOD appeared from nothing!


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## Fozzy

There's a forum for debating the merits of other people's faiths. This isn't it. It's over in the politics/religion section.

This forum is for people to get relationship advice from a spiritual point of view.


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## Affaircare

Misfits, 

I'm sorry this thread degraded into one that's arguing FOR and AGAINST Christianity, as that is not what this thread is about. As I understand it, what you want to know is if there is any hope of the two of you staying together and, at the same time, you staying true to yourself and your actual beliefs. 

Here's my thought, and I offer these as someone who considers herself a Christian, meaning a believer in Jesus Christ and what He taught. Okay, first, I don't see sufficient grounds for your wife to divorce you solely based on this issue (You may have other issues that I'm not aware of, but we're not addressing those here). Even though YOU don't ascribe to it, your wife does, and in the Bible in I Corinthians 7, the apostle Paul describes married life between a believer and non-believer. In verse 12 of that chapter he gets specific, and I'll paraphrase here, but essentially he says that if a Christian is married to a non-believer, and the non-believer is willing to stay married, then the believer must not divorce because the household can be blessed by the believer and the way they ACT. In verse 15 he says if they non-believer wants to go--wants to divorce--that it's okay to let them go and live a life of peace. So from just a moral point of view on this one topic, there is not a moral basis for divorce. 

To you, I would say that most Christians are not trained in thinking, in logic, or in truly facing and defending their beliefs. Being very general, many "believe because that's what they've been told or taught" and have never really faced their beliefs head on and thought it through. So for many Christians this is scary because "What if.....?" Now, not all are this way so don't get me wrong! I think, just in general, people are afraid to look at their core beliefs and think "What if what I've been believing all along is wrong?" because it might require them to change who they are at their core. Right? That is scary! 

Sooo...I would suggest, when talking to your wife, that a) you encourage her to learn a thing called apologetics--which is a fancy term for "defending the faith." There are books about it and everything, and she would basically be learning how to defend what she believes and why. I think this would give her a little more courage in talking to you, and I believe it would lead to some excellent discussions between the two of you as long as they didn't degrade into ad hominem attacks, etc. 

b) I'd suggest that with the kids, maybe rather than facing it like "Dad is attacking what Mom believes...Mom is attacking what Dad believes" that the two of you JOIN FORCES to teach the child how to think and make decisions using logic and reason. For example, rather than making a dynamic of "Dad vs. Mom" have the dynamic be: "As a team we want to teach you logic so you can learn the ability to think!" and then both with your wife and with the children demonstrate them how to respectfully disagree. So what I'm saying is teach your children formal logic.

See, if the children are taught HOW TO THINK and are taught how to not be afraid to challenge "what they're told" to find out why do we do that and why do we believe that...they will have a valuable tool! And your wife can be a living model in her own home of defending Christianity...and you can be a living model of your own beliefs. 

Make sense? Oh and btw, I do hear and recognize that you think you'll never believe again, but I do pray that maybe one day, God will send someone with strong apologetic skills to defend the ration and logic of the Christian worldview into your life.


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## BlueWoman

I really like AffairCare's post.

My thoughts on this are it's really up to your wife. Changing of faith can be a gamechanger, depending on the Other Spouses view points. I don't actually think you betrayed her, but I do think she could feel that way, and it wouldn't be unreasonable. 

She's going to have to decide what she wants to do. That sucks for both of you. Sorry.


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## Misfits

Thanks for all the replies. We had a talk about this issue And are leaving it at we will not talk religion. It's kind of sad but way better than arguing. I'm fairly new to atheism but it's become a fascination for me. I would love for her to think about what she believes. I've tried a few times to start discussions but she gets highly offended. So I'm now respecting her and staying away from discussing it. This sucks because it's my new topic of books, podcast, etc and it's hard to not talk about something you are passionate about with your spouse. But I am and i will. I hope she joins me in the "dark" side (reality) someday but I'll avoid brining it up. Some of you had great input and thanks for that. We'll be fine. Christian/religious conversation has Ben absent from our conversations for a very long time - even when I still believed. Thanks for all the input.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Not, if you respect and love your wife it is not hard at all. It is easy to talk about a million other things in your life. Well, unless you are trying to make her believe what you believe. If so, which is kind of the tone of your post, I'd be highly offended as well. 

Why did I say tone? You KNOW she is religious and hurt at your switch. The fact you think it is okay, since you are new to atheism, to discuss something that fundamentally discounts her belief sounds somewhat arrogant to me.

Yes, I am speaking from similar experience. I do not miss nor feel like I lost something by not discussing *one* little thing with my wife.


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## eheigl

Aspydad said:


> You are correct. I should not have wrote it that way. When I think of Africa, I think of drought and starvation - I see flies everywhere - and I am sure the entire country is not like that - it is just what I have seen on TV. That was my point by the way. Maybe I should have referred to the death camps that Hitler set up instead.


Africa is not a country, sigh! Maybe it's time to pick up another book apart from the bible and read it. Your comments are irresponsible and hurtful.


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## Yeswecan

Misfits said:


> I'm not looking for a theological debate. I'm interested in hearing thoughts on how to make things work in the marriage and with raising children. I grew up in a religious setting. 10 years ago I met my wife with the premise that I was a christian albeit in need of work, and with aspirations of becoming a better christian. After the birth of our son 7 years ago I started having doubts. I started reading sources, listening to podcasts, and thinking outside the comforts of pro christian views. I've always had some doubts but was nervous of venturing away from pro christian sources to find my answers.
> 
> So here I am today. A solid atheist. I've never felt better nor more liberated in my spiritual views - well lack there of. However my wife is very much a christian and wants to increase our christian activities - like go to church more etc.
> 
> Here's the rub: our kids. At this point I'm ok with them going to church and believing in things like Noah and the bible. In fact I think it paints a better picture for questions on death - oh grandma is in heaven and we'll see her again someday. I think theres nothing wrong with these views...for now. But i've made it crystal clear to my wife that when the time comes when they are in early teens (or sooner) and they develop deeper cognitive abilities and question things, I'll not hold back my knowledge or what current history, archeology, science etc... has to say about things.
> 
> This is very challenging for my wife. Our marriage is rocky as it is. This puts more stress on it. Has anyone out there overcome such a difference in views. I feel like I betrayed her in a sense because when we met and during the first part of marriage I was very much pro christian and wanted to become a "stronger" christian. She married me under those conditions. I can no longer fulfill that. This isn't some mid-life crises either- You could sooner convince me that the Mormon, muslim, hindu religion is real. I'll never again believe in the bible. so it's not a phase. I think she hopes (and prays) that i'll return to faith. That will not happen. Id rather not divorce over this since I'm in this for the kids. But I dont want a hostile environment either.
> 
> I was sort of hoping that civilized discussions could ensue and she'd maybe listen to my side. She's never been one to explore the real history or reasons behind her beliefs. She's in the camp that the bible is real because it says so and God made it. The few little talks we have were disastrous resulting in her being offended. I think she's threatened by my views and is perhaps worried that it could impact her fragile faith. Secretly I was hoping to deconvert her to avoid this whole mess but instead it becomes an argument with her getting pissed.



For me, growing up, my folks were similar. My mother more to going to church. My father not so much. My father leaning towards agnostic. Even agnostic a few days before he passed. At any rate, both parents helped provided a balance of simply accepting and asking the hard questions. Our mother took us to church every Sunday. At the age of 15 our mother said it was up to us to continue going to church. Make your own mind up concerning church and the faith. My father still on the fence. 

****my parents raised 5 children and stayed married for 56 years until death really made them part. This difference in faith the marriage survived.*****


People are permitted to change their views. In your case, both of you need to grasp that some things you are just not going to see eye to eye on. Respect each other for that. Understand you kids will have the best of both perspectives. Dad, "Hey, I can explain this through science." Mom, dad does not know about this. Mom, "Hey, I have no explanation for this, must have been God." Sometimes we simply have to accept occurrences that we have no good explanation for. This is hardly worth getting a D over. It appears you are making it harder than it has to be. 

This concerns me:


> * I think she's threatened by my views and is perhaps worried that it could impact her fragile faith.*


This is a belittling statement. You make it appear she is childish and you the worldly one. Do not ever put your wife down nor her belief no matter how skewed you think they are. I'm betting she has more common sense in her little finger than you in your entire body. 


This is simply wrong:


> *Secretly I was hoping to deconvert her to avoid this whole mess but instead it becomes an argument with her getting pissed.*


You want to smooth this over? Act like an adult and stop the belittlement. I sense the conversation one is looking down his nose. Acting superior is not the answer. Understand and accepting that something are just as they are is the best avenue. 

And let's face it, some things in this world we simply cannot explain. I think Big Foot is real. My W laughs at me when I watch "Big Foot. New Evidence." but she does not make me change the channel. I do not attempt to make her believe. It is part of life, acceptance and understanding that make marriage work.


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## Ynot

I haven't read every post on this thread, but my two cents:

Your children have free will just as you and your wife do. At this point you shouldn't have any problems exposing them to religion. In time they will either accept the fairy tales of religion or reject them. Their journey to enlightenment may in fact be what leads your wife to the truth.

I was raised as a Catholic and later attempted to practice various forms of Christianity. I myself have come to know that it is the man-made revealed religion that I have the real problem with. Unlike many Christians, Muslims, or Jews, I do not need to believe anything. I KNOW that God exists there is no faith or belief required.


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## tech-novelist

You might want to consider a Unitarian church; many mixed-faith couples select that faith because Unitarianism is welcoming to both Christians and non-Christians.


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## changedbeliefs

Yeswecan said:


> This is a belittling statement....I'm betting she has more common sense in her little finger than you in your entire body.


Pot.....kettle.....?



Yeswecan said:


> And let's face it, some things in this world we simply cannot explain. I think Big Foot is real.


The correct answer when we don't know something is, "I don't know," not "let me offer this unfounded, half-****ed explanation." Personally, I think it is LUDICROUS to state "Big Foot is real." I understand some people believe it, but whether it's true or not is a very real consideration as to whether it is reasonable to believe it, right? It's like saying Elvis is still alive. There are things that, if they are not true, are ridiculous to believe. Yes, there are grey areas, but in the end, IMO, atheists treat ALL such areas as, "unless there is a good reason to do so, I do not believe." In that way, there is no such thing as "belief," there is knowledge, and lack of knowledge. To believe, by definition, is to hold something as true without sufficient evidence (essentially, belief and faith are equivalent).

A believer and an atheist have a VERY hard time co-existing. It goes far beyond simply "religion" or "is there a god." It has to do with HOW someone thinks and sees the world, sees every question. When one person operates on evidence and knowledge, and another person is willing to operate on faith, belief, construed "evidence," etc..., and those two people are trying to run a household, their economics, raise children, it can be a significant source of friction.

One last note on "belief" - as a critical thinker (IMO, the real "cause" of why I am an atheist), I am still willing to "believe" certain things, but the question becomes, what are the implications of that belief? One may believe there is a Big Foot. Ok, what are the consequences? Maybe none, maybe I simply have the belief, nothing more, ok, so who care if it's actually true? What if it leads me to quit my job, neglect my family, spend all my time in the woods with a video camera? Clearly, holding the belief now has implications and, IMO, now the truth of that belief is vital, and we must pursue that truth in the same way we would anything else, which is to say, the generally accepted scientific method. Evidence, scrutiny, peer review, etc...

This is why I am an atheist: because there is no greater implication than that brought on by belief in a god, so whether or not it is true is of utmost importance. The FACT is, belief in a god completely falls apart under the type of scrutiny, under the levels of proof, that we require for ANY other topic. Moreover, religion frequently specificaly calls us to abandon our demands for proof (Joel Osteen tweeted, "The facts may tell you one thing. But, God is not limited by the facts. Choose faith in spite of the facts."). We purport that a religous belief should be immune to criticism, to questioning, when we don't afford any other type of belief such a luxury. I don't understand that, I can't understand it anymore. If someone is going to attempt to direct my life and sanction my afterlife based on some belief, they better be able to support it with facts, they need to prove its true, and let's face it, no religion will ever be proven "true," not the way we talk about any other truth, and there's no reason religion shouldn't have to use the same definition of "true" as anything else.

I'll wrap up with a simple, wise notion I recently heard: It can't be that every religion is "right," there are too many conflicts for that to be true. Religious doctrine requires you to pick the onr right one, no "bonus points" for believing in A god, but the wrong god. So what's more reasonable, and more likely: that just ONE of them is right and it's the one you picked, or that the reality is, they're all wrong? The old adage is, everyone is an atheist as regards thousands of other religions and gods; atheists just go one farther.


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## changedbeliefs

intheory - thank you for the feedback. I know I can come off as abrasive on this topic, I try to be simply "informative" (maybe, albeit, with a passion, lol), so in that spirit, I'm glad you found it enjoyable in some respect. No, I don't follow Joel Osteen, haha, I believe I came across that tweet because it was highlighted by an atheist-type page for its flying straight in the face of critical thinking. If I actually saw all his tweets, I'd probably have an aneurysm by about 9am every day!


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## Tasorundo

"I know I can come off as abrasive on this topic"

There is the point of this thread. You talk of friction in your previous post, well, friction can only be heightened by abrasion, right? It is all in how things are presented and how they are received.

Two people with different world views can coexist just fine, as long as they are willing to coexist.


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## changedbeliefs

Sure, they can, but marriage is quite a large step beyond "coexist just fine," even with willingness. Extreme example: one person believes in "faith healing" and wants to pray over a sick child, while the other wants to go to a doctor. Those opposing views can't coexist, not in my opinion. Yes, extreme, but every day life could be littered with smaller, yet numerous other examples. Would you want to have those ideological back and forths all the time?


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## Tasorundo

I think that is what people do everyday, while not as extreme as your example. What if I feel that debt is ok and she doesn't? What if I want a new car, what if she wants to go on vacation, what if she wants to spend more time with her family, and on and on and on and on it goes.

Marriage is about working together, no one ever sees eye to eye on everything.

If you make a mountain out of every thing, you will waste your days climbing mountains.


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## Misfits

Yeswecan said:


> This concerns me:
> 
> 
> This is a belittling statement. You make it appear she is childish and you the worldly one. Do not ever put your wife down nor her belief no matter how skewed you think they are. I'm betting she has more common sense in her little finger than you in your entire body.
> 
> 
> This is simply wrong:
> 
> You want to smooth this over? Act like an adult and stop the belittlement. I sense the conversation one is looking down his nose. Acting superior is not the answer. Understand and accepting that something are just as they are is the best avenue.
> 
> And let's face it, some things in this world we simply cannot explain. I think Big Foot is real. My W laughs at me when I watch "Big Foot. New Evidence." but she does not make me change the channel. I do not attempt to make her believe. It is part of life, acceptance and understanding that make marriage work.



Its not acting superior. I'm more knowledgable about the source of her beliefs than she is. I want her to understand the why/when/how of her christain faith. Because as it is - it's only faith that she has. I want her to have knowledge and truth. She only knows what she has been told in church - cherry picked happy feeling bible verses and surrounded by a bunch of "Amens" in the crowed. She has never ventured past that. I have and that's why I know longer believe. Standing where I am it's as absurd as beliving in santa clause. I want her to at least explore something outside of what she was told is real. She's not a hard lined Christian. we dont and never have even prayed before meals. Our children are puzzled when we go somewhere where the tradition of prayer before meal is done. They are confused. This is awesome. I want them thinking this is strange and not normal. So my prediction is that in 10 years we'll have 2 atheists. Hell even the church knows that statistically if you cant convince them before the age of 12 or so (I think that's the stat), then they are likely never going to be a paying - errr donating member of the congregation. So I have a few more years to hold out.

When I made this post it was after a blow up about religion. Now things have calmed since the topic isnt brought up anymore. I think it's going to be fine. We pretend its not an issue. The kids dont attend church and only hear about God from my Mom and when we (mostly wife) mentions it in some topic of conversation. So, I think I stressed over nothing.


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## Tasorundo

That is great!

I am not acting superior, I AM SUPERIOR!


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## Misfits

Tasorundo said:


> That is great!
> 
> I am not acting superior, I AM SUPERIOR!


I guess it's hard to put into words. She's ignorant. I guess that's it in a nutshell. She is ignorant about Christianity's history. I was also ignorant. I know more about it now than I ever have - the more i've learned the more I was appalled by what I once believed. So yeah, I guess I'm superior to her in knowledge and history of her believe system.


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## norajane

It seems like your biggest challenge with this might be to make sure that your perspective doesn't erode your respect for your wife. Even if you don't respect her beliefs, you will need to retain respect for your wife or your relationship will start to fall apart.

Focus on everything else about her that makes her your dream girl instead of on where you think she falls short.


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## Faithful Wife

What it sounds like is that you are going to fall out of love with her if she remains ignorant (your word). I don't know if you know you are coming across that way, but there is really nothing that sounds like love in your words about her. Also, you are trying to police her mind and you have decided for her what she "should" think, and you are angry at the thoughts she does have since they don't live up to your standards of what thoughts should be for an adult. Because of your detrimental disrespect to her as a person, I'm gonna say, no, there's most likely no way to work this out.

Just admit you no longer respect her and are quickly falling out of love with her...it will save you a lot of time.


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## happy as a clam

Misfits said:


> I guess it's hard to put into words. She's ignorant. I guess that's it in a nutshell.


Which goes back to my original post in your thread. Your bigger problem, beyond issues of faith, is that you question things and she questions nothing:



happy as a clam said:


> Herein lies your real problem.
> 
> Forget your wife's "beliefs"...
> 
> The fact that she questions nothing, and YOU do, is the real issue. It's hard to reconcile naiveté.... (and I happen to be a Christian)


*IMHO, that's what is really bugging you.*


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## hawkeye

Misfits said:


> So nobody here in my situation then Huh?


I was for a while. Christian for 25 years, decoverted slowly after a few years of marriage. Coming out to my then Christian wife about it was kind of rough, but she took it ok and over the course of a couple years she also lost her faith. yay! We do have a 9 year old daughter and we don't really teach her anything one way or the other. She has some vague beliefs in god thanks to her grandparents hauling her to church occasionally and we don't encourage or discourage those. We just want to teach her how to think and be rational and the rest should take care of itself. I want her to make her own decisions, not be spoonfed what I believe (or don't). 



Aspydad said:


> No, it does take FAITH to be an atheist = especially if your not quite sure if God exists or not - lets see:
> 
> If you don't believe God exists - you have FAITH that somehow, against all odds ( I mean huge) that life would just magically appear from NOTHING. Take whatever Theory you like (non of them ever proven by the way) and its all the same - Atheist has FAITH that we are just here by LUCK.
> 
> Say you do believe a God created us - you have FAITH that this GOD - that created a UNIVERSE LARGER THAN YOU CAN FATHOM - cannot have willed the Bible to be written by man in such a way that HE is considered the author. Because I tell you - the only way you can make that claim is if you KNOW - and I can promise you - UNLESS YOU ARE A GOD - you DO NOT KNOW.


You know nothing about anything. Of that much I am certain. No faith required.


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## Yeswecan

norajane said:


> Focus on everything else about her that makes her your dream girl instead of on where you think she falls short.


For the love of God and Einstein, see your W for what she does well. Not what mold of yours she does not fit.


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## Yeswecan

Faithful Wife said:


> Just admit you no longer respect her and are quickly falling out of love with her...it will save you a lot of time.


In a nutshell, she ain't falling into line.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Sure, I was in your situation. I also had the superior arrogance that oozes from your posts. 

Your marriage will fail if you continue down this road. No, I am not talking about choosing not to believe. Every time you say she is ignorant, because she doesn't follow your path, diminishes her in your eyes.

You'll say "no, I love her" but all of this:


> I guess it's hard to put into words. She's ignorant. I guess that's it in a nutshell.





> I'm more knowledgable about the source of her beliefs than she is.


 Coupled with this contradiction


> I'm fairly new to atheism but it's become a fascination for me.


Says something completely different to me.


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## Misfits

FW - love left a while ago. That's a whole different thread. We are a great partnership and raise our children well together (except the religion thing which I think is becoming less of an issue). We splitup for a time due to other issues. Neither of us want to leave and neither of us want to be single parents. What we have now is working. Its cordial and business like I guess. There is no deep love like things I've read here but nor is there anything causing distress and arguments. So you are not far off with your statement but it's not something we want to leave for.

Hawkeye - I think this is where we are heading. My 6yo asked a question to her last night "how do we know god is the right god - what about those in Egypt and vikings. what about those gods?" I smiled. My wife avoided it and changed the subject. And yeah - aspydad knows nothing.

Yeswecan - I do respect her tremendously for what she does well. she tops me in so many aspects. I dont want her to fit in a mold. Rather I dont want her to blindly follow religious teachings without question. Religion often causes real harm to people and their psyche. She's not in danger of that - at least right now she's not.

Philly - saying she's ignorant is not a slam. It's the truth. I'm ignorant of many things. I see more potential in her than blindly following christian teachings. And yes, when she gets offended when I tell her some historical fact about her own religion or worse yet something written in the bible that goes against her beliefs of the classic all loving god - it sucks. If I were ignorant on a topic and she was privy to knowledge about it, i'd hope she'd share it with me / teach me. But like I mentioned the topic wont be coming up again. I'm avoiding it and will only talk to her if she has genuine questions about how I got to where I am today or questions in general. I'll not try to get the conversation going like I was. When I read something crazy, I'll not share it with her.

I predict she'll be agnostic in about 10 years. Especially if our children dont believe - which I think will be the case. That's up to them though.

Some of you have had great thoughts on this - thanks. To the rest - well thanks for reading and the conversation.


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## bandit.45

Mutha...teach your children not to walk my way.........


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## phillybeffandswiss

Misfits said:


> Philly - saying she's ignorant is not a slam. It's the truth. I'm ignorant of many things. I see more potential in her than blindly following christian teachings. And yes, when she gets offended when I tell her some historical fact about her own religion or worse yet something written in the bible that goes against her beliefs of the classic all loving god - it sucks. If I were ignorant on a topic and she was privy to knowledge about it, i'd hope she'd share it with me / teach me. But like I mentioned the topic wont be coming up again. I'm avoiding it and will only talk to her if she has genuine questions about how I got to where I am today or questions in general. I'll not try to get the conversation going like I was. When I read something crazy, I'll not share it with her.


 Ignorant can be an accurate description and not a slam or insult. Still, it is all about context. So, when you say she is ignorant and then constantly follow it up with things like:


> I see more potential in her than *blindly following* christian teachings.





> I tell her some historical fact about her own religion or worse yet something written in the bible that goes against her beliefs of the classic all loving god - *it sucks.*





> *I'm more knowledgable about the source of her beliefs than she is*.





> *I want her to at least explore something outside of what she was told is real.*


 It is an insult because everything you type is about her not following your belief. 


> love left a while ago.


It is more telling when you say love left, but you are trying to make her follow your belief system.


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## gouge_away

Misfits said:


> I guess it's hard to put into words. She's ignorant. I guess that's it in a nutshell. She is ignorant about Christianity's history. I was also ignorant. I know more about it now than I ever have - the more i've learned the more I was appalled by what I once believed. So yeah, I guess I'm superior to her in knowledge and history of her believe system.


Christian history, or the history of the Catholic Church?


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## Misfits

Philly - No longer accepting christian teachings and doctrines or the bible isn't really a belief system. I have no belief or faith in that material. The only change I have experienced is I now view all religions with the same disbelief and skepticism. They all seem silly to me. Ten years ago all but my version of Christianity seemed silly. So you once had my view then changed? Did your marriage fail because of it? I think we are fine now. Like I said before - we dont talk religion and she isnt practicing Christain - at least not as much as she once was. 

Gouge - both.


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## gouge_away

It was the big bang... you know, the foundation of all physics, violates the laws of physics. That's foolishness at its core.

When I see an out of order sign, I think twice about plugging the machine with quarters. Just saying...


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## gouge_away

I like that. The reality transcends cause/effect.

I also like to think cause/effect transcends reality. In terms of physics. The primal cause must transcend reality. The laws of thermodynamics, matter/energy.

If the law (reality) states: "matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed." Then the primal cause *must* transcend reality and physical law. = God.

Or simply, "nothing moves without being moved." We're moving at 67k/mph on a ball of clay... maybe its time we check in with God?


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## Coffee Amore

*This is the wrong forum for someone to debate what is atheism. We have another forum, the Politics and Religion Forum, for such discussions. This forum is to offer support and advice for someone grappling with spiritual issues in their marriage. If you are unable to offer that, please don't post. We have many other threads on TAM. 

Please keep this in mind as you post.*


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## ScrambledEggs

hawkeye said:


> I was for a while. Christian for 25 years, decoverted slowly after a few years of marriage. Coming out to my then Christian wife about it was kind of rough, but she took it ok and over the course of a couple years she also lost her faith. yay! We do have a 9 year old daughter and we don't really teach her anything one way or the other. She has some vague beliefs in god thanks to her grandparents hauling her to church occasionally and we don't encourage or discourage those. We just want to teach her how to think and be rational and the rest should take care of itself. I want her to make her own decisions, not be spoonfed what I believe (or don't).
> 
> 
> 
> You know nothing about anything. Of that much I am certain. No faith required.


This is pretty much exactly how I was raised I think I turned out all right. There is secular progression underway in the US. All it takes is one generation to break with dogma as my parents did in the 60's.


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## Yeswecan

Misfits said:


> Yeswecan - I do respect her tremendously for what she does well. she tops me in so many aspects. I dont want her to fit in a mold. Rather I dont want her to blindly follow religious teachings without question. Religion often causes real harm to people and their psyche. She's not in danger of that - at least right now she's not. *I'm not sure of your ages but I have noticed over 21 years of marriage my "holy roller" W has come to realize one needs to question and ask. She depends on many resources to find the correct answer. People's life experiences will mold them into more well rounded people. Well, most. Some go off the deep end. I suspect your W will learn to depend on all her available resources to find the appropriate answer to the question at hand. *
> 
> 
> 
> I predict she'll be agnostic in about 10 years. Especially if our children dont believe - which I think will be the case. That's up to them though. *You can not predict what path your children will take. As a parent you can only introduce several paths and allow them to make the final decision. As I stated in a past post, you have the best of both worlds in you and your W. My W and I are very similar to both of you. Marriage takes work like anything else. *


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## pana1089

There isn't such thing as a "former" Christian. One is saved through the transforming operation of the Holy Spirit. After one is saved, the Holy Spirit resides in them and continues their transformation through sanctification. You may have heard the word of God and were moved in the direction of becoming a Christian and it just didn't happen. That is akin to the Word falling among rocks and not taking root (parable). But don't be mistaken, if you are not a Christian now, you never were.

1 Cor Ch 7: If you and your wife are willing to live together you can do so with the blessing of scripture. It does make things difficult, as you are experiencing. Two rational people can figure out how to make it work under the circumstances. As for the kids, we each get to the point where we make our own decision regarding Christ/God. Let them go to church with your wife; the moral teachings is not a bad alternative. It won't make them Christians, it will just give them another point of view. At some point in their life they will arrive at a decision point regarding their faith or lack thereof.


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## Chriscross

Tough position my story is very similar I'm still trying to figure out the same. I have days were it doesn't bother me and I have days that it eats at me . A lot of my frustration comes from the fact she won't even look at other alternatives.


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## Mr The Other

Misfits said:


> I'm not looking for a theological debate. I'm interested in hearing thoughts on how to make things work in the marriage and with raising children. I grew up in a religious setting. 10 years ago I met my wife with the premise that I was a christian albeit in need of work, and with aspirations of becoming a better christian. After the birth of our son 7 years ago I started having doubts. I started reading sources, listening to podcasts, and thinking outside the comforts of pro christian views. I've always had some doubts but was nervous of venturing away from pro christian sources to find my answers.
> 
> So here I am today. A solid atheist. I've never felt better nor more liberated in my spiritual views - well lack there of. However my wife is very much a christian and wants to increase our christian activities - like go to church more etc.
> 
> Here's the rub: our kids. At this point I'm ok with them going to church and believing in things like Noah and the bible. In fact I think it paints a better picture for questions on death - oh grandma is in heaven and we'll see her again someday. I think theres nothing wrong with these views...for now. But i've made it crystal clear to my wife that when the time comes when they are in early teens (or sooner) and they develop deeper cognitive abilities and question things, I'll not hold back my knowledge or what current history, archeology, science etc... has to say about things.
> 
> This is very challenging for my wife. Our marriage is rocky as it is. This puts more stress on it. Has anyone out there overcome such a difference in views. I feel like I betrayed her in a sense because when we met and during the first part of marriage I was very much pro christian and wanted to become a "stronger" christian. She married me under those conditions. I can no longer fulfill that. This isn't some mid-life crises either- You could sooner convince me that the Mormon, muslim, hindu religion is real. I'll never again believe in the bible. so it's not a phase. I think she hopes (and prays) that i'll return to faith. That will not happen. Id rather not divorce over this since I'm in this for the kids. But I dont want a hostile environment either.
> 
> I was sort of hoping that civilized discussions could ensue and she'd maybe listen to my side. She's never been one to explore the real history or reasons behind her beliefs. She's in the camp that the bible is real because it says so and God made it. The few little talks we have were disastrous resulting in her being offended. I think she's threatened by my views and is perhaps worried that it could impact her fragile faith. Secretly I was hoping to deconvert her to avoid this whole mess but instead it becomes an argument with her getting pissed.


I was brought up Christian, but have learnt a few things since coming to the USA. The style of speech in the USA is very literal. On a UK board, I could write "He is very busy at work at tells me about it all afternoon without break", there is a clear suggestion that the person is not really busy at all. In the USA, I would have to spell it out as "He says he is busy. But, in the afternoon he does not work hard but just talks all the time". People in the USA who really wanted to get my true meaning would insist from the first sentence that he was very busy.

I had someone make an anti-Catholic point quoting Jesus in Matthew saying to call no man your Father. However, that is presumably what Jesus called Joseph. He also said to call no other man teacher, but then referred to men as teachers. Jesus was talking as people spoke and that is not as English-speaking USA people speak. 

There is truth in the Bible, just as there is truth when a grandchild speaks at its Grandmum's funeral, but the coroner's report is more likely to be technically correct. More truth is found in the Grandchild. Where I am going, is if someone is very attached to their interpretation of the words, give up with reason.

If they understand the spirit, then accept it and all will be well.


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## JohnA

I have read the first three pages of this thread and decided to jump and make a few posts. If they have been discussed I apologize. 

OP exactly what is your problem? You are an atheist, fine so what is your problem with commandments 2 though 10? You don't need to believe in a god to know they are true and she does? Then so what? Are you really going to get into a pissing contest about how many angeis can fit on the head of a needle. 

As to your kids, again if you believe in 2 though 9 because she is christian and you are X then again the point is the values being taught are valid. 

Are you fimilar with secular humanism? Yet another example of reinventing the wheel. Would you rather be married to an atheists who believes adultery is fine and life affirming or a muslin who is both a pacifist who believes in fidelity? It is that simple. Do you find your wife to be preachy, well she finds you that why to. 

If you read the bible and substitute "life experience" for god it is the longest written case study of western history. As posts on TAM so is the bible. 

The bible will tell you careful what you ask for, you might get it. Will you be happy if your wife says your right, I've wasted my life and I am a fool. Becomes an atheist, walks out the door, joins a commune, and embraces it us all good, do your own thing? 

Here is truth for every fault, and there are thousands, of organized religion I can point to a similar fault in atheism and human secularism. 

Have you ever really engaged in a dialogue, not conversion? Yes you want your wife to convert so your children will too. Dialogue is an attempt to better understand your faith though the eyes of those who either believe as you do but from a different faith or even those who disagree with your basic values of though shalt not steal.


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## JohnA

(sigh) OP is there something going on in faith community that is causing a rift in your marriage because you are an atheist? Is someone telling her to divorce and remarry within her faith community? If she is listening, she is a fool. If she is doubting your marriage on this point alone, she is a fool.


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## Personal

JohnA said:


> I have read the first three pages of this thread and decided to jump and make a few posts. If they have been discussed I apologize.


The last time @Misfits logged on here was back in April 2015, so you may be barking up an empty tree.



JohnA said:


> OP exactly what is your problem? You are an atheist, fine so what is your problem with commandments 2 though 10? You don't need to believe in a god to know they are true and she does? Then so what? Are you really going to get into a pissing contest about how many angeis can fit on the head of a needle.


Maybe @Misfits has no respect for biblical hypocrisy?

*The Second Commandment:*

*Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Exodus 20:4*

Except for the times when it is okay to make likenesses of things that are in heaven above...

And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, ... Thou shalt make two cherubims of gold ... And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look to one another. Exodus 25:1, 18-20

*The Third Commandment:*

*Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. Exodus 20:7*

Utter Nonsense! Perhaps @Misfits doesn't believe he ought to be stoned to death by his wife's congregation?

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying ... he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:13-16

*The Fourth Commandment:*

*Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Exodus 20:8*

Except for the times when the sabbath is considered an iniquity...

Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity. Isaiah 1:13

*The Fifth Commandment:*

*Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. Exodus 20:12*

Except for the times when thou hates and disrespects their parents...

And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead. Luke 9:59-60

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26

And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? Luke 2:48-49

*The Sixth Commandment:*

*Thou shalt not kill. Exodus 20:13*

Except for the times when thou shalt kill...

For everything there is a season ... a time to kill. Ecclesiastes 3:1-3

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Exodus 22:18

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:13

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; and they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21

Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side ... and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor. Exodus 32:27

Thus saith the Lord of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare him not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 1 Samuel 15:2-3

*The Seventh Commandment:*

*Thou shalt not commit adultery. Exodus 20:14*

Except for the times when thou shalt commit adultery...

And the Lord said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of wh0redoms.... Hosea 1:2

Then said the Lord unto me, God yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress. Hosea 3:1

*The Eighth Commandment:*

*Thou shalt not steal. Exodus 20:15*

Except for the times when thou shalt steal...

And the children of Israel did according to the word of Moses; and they borrowed of the Egyptians ... and they spoiled the Egyptians. Exodus 12:35-36

Israel shall go forth, and ... spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robben them, saith the Lord God. Ezekiel 39:9-10

Nineveh is of old like a pool of wate ... Take ye the spoil of silver, take the spoil of gold: for there is none end of the store and glory out of all the pleasant furniture. Nahum 2:9

The just took the spoils of the wicked. Wisdom 10:19

*The Ninth Commandment:*

*Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Exodus 20:16*

Except for the times when it is okay to bear false witness against thy neighbours...

And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men-children alive? And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them. Therefore God dealt well with the midwives. Exodus 1:18-20

And the woman [Rahab] took the two men and hid them and said thus: There came men unto me, but I wist not whence they were; and it came to pass about the time of shutting of the gate, when it was dark that the men went out; whither the men went I wot not; pursue after them quickly, for ye shall overtake them. But she had brought them up to the roof of the house and hid them with the stalks of flax. Joshua 2:4-6
Was not Rahab, the harlot, justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?. James 2:25

Tobias said to him: I pray thee, tell me, of what family, or what tribe art thou? And Raphael the angel answered ... I am Azarias. Tobit 5:16-18

Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast. ... But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret. John 7:8-10

And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him ... I will go forth and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him and prevail also; go forth and do so. 1 Kings 22:21-22

*The Tenth Commandment:*

*Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. Exodus 20:17*

Aside from the fact that wives are considered to be property, that whole slavery thing being okay as it is written in the bible is rather repugnant...

And the LORD hath blessed my master [Abraham] greatly; and he is become great: and he hath given him flocks, and herds, and silver, and gold, and menservants, and maidservants, and camels, and asses. Genesis 24:35

Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy maid is in thine hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face. ... And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her. hands. Genesis 16:8-9

Then Isaac sowed in that land, and received in the same year an hundredfold: and the LORD blessed him. And the man waxed great, and went forward, and grew until he became very great: For he had possession of flocks, and possession of herds, and great store of servants. Genesis 26:12-14

Now therefore ye are cursed, and there shall none of you be freed from being bondmen, and hewers of wood and drawers of water for the house of my God. ... And Joshua made them that day hewers of wood and drawers of water for the congregation, and for the altar of the LORD, even unto this day. Joshua 9:23-27

And if thy brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman be sold unto thee.... Deuteronomy 15:12

If the priest buy any soul with his money.... Leviticus 22:11

And if thy brother that dwelleth by thee be waxen poor, and be sold unto thee.... Leviticus 25:39

And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant.... Exodus 21:7

Thy bond-men and thy bond-maids which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you: of them shall ye buy bond-men and bond-maids. Moreover, of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land. And they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession, they shall be your bond-man forever. Leviticus 25:44-46

If a man smite his servant or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand, he shall be surely punished; notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished, for he is his money. Exodus 21:20-21
And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake. And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake. Exodus 21:26-27

And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free. Leviticus 19:20

When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it. And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee. Deuteronomy 20:10-11
But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself. Deuteronomy 20:14

The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. Luke 12:46-47
But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. Luke 17:7-9

Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather. For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant. 1 Corinthians 7:21-22
Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God. Ephesians 6:5

Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ. Colossians 3:22

Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven. Colossians 4:1

Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise ... he is proud, knowing nothing.... From such withdraw thyself. 1 Timothy 6:1-5

Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God. Titus 2:9-10

Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. 1 Peter 2:18

Charming! (sarc)


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