# Isn't outside attention to a spouse a kind of insult?



## GoodForNothing (Feb 25, 2013)

I posted here earlier this week and have gotten more familiar with the site since. A lot of good info here and I appreciate all the knowledge.

My situation is that my wife apparently had an EA going on a few years back, and has had lesser attachments to other other men since then. None are still around but I still worry about the next time this happens and she still has men approach her regularly. Lots of work to be done on my part as others have made clear.

My question now is about how my wife sees the attentions of other men. She views it as validation and an ego boost for herself, which is why I think she slowly gets wrapped up in this nonsense, at least in part.

But in reality, since men aren't like women in that way and we often chase lots of women, isn't such attention not really the validation she thinks it is? I don't mean I chase other women, or that anyone here does by the way. 

What I mean is in general men will sleep with a woman given the chance if he is without other attachment, and so this pursuit by other men isn't really the compliment my wife thinks it is? If a man at work or out and about will approach her that way, isn't he showing how little he thinks of her? How little he or others respect our marriage? And also that those who encourage her in this kind of behavior are not really her friends or admirers?

Just some thoughts but I was curious what people might think. Also, should I ask her about any of this or not?


----------



## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

I think if she feels flattered by the attention there probably isn't much you're going to say to change that... I kind of got the impression that if you said to her what you've said here, she might feel like she's being told she isn't worthy of genuine attention.

The EAs are a whole other ballpark. Seems like she may have some difficulty understanding, or defining appropriate boundaries. I haven't read your other posts... Is she in counseling of any sort? If you both attended Marriage Counseling together it could help give her some perspective on things...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

GoodForNothing said:


> I posted here earlier this week and have gotten more familiar with the site since. A lot of good info here and I appreciate all the knowledge.
> 
> My situation is that my wife apparently had an EA going on a few years back, and has had lesser attachments to other other men since then. None are still around but I still worry about the next time this happens and she still has men approach her regularly. Lots of work to be done on my part as others have made clear.
> 
> ...


It is validation that she is reasonably attractive and not personally repulsive. 

Men might be less discriminating in general than women about potential partners, but we're not blind, dumb, or deaf. 

I was in college working fast food as a franchise manager when I started studying the "busy bee" effect every time a new girl was hired. Buzz, buzz, buzz, all the boy worker bees would flirt and dance up a storm to show the way to their honeypot until the New Girl Smell wore off or an even newer girl entered the hive.

But it didn't happen to every girl. Fat ones, ugly ones, irritating ones didn't get the same level of attention, if any at all. 

That's the long answer for yes, it's validation.


----------



## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

Yes it's validation. That's why so many affairs happen. Yes, it validates that she is attractive. But that is all it validates. The husband is in the unique position to validate her on all levels not just one. The type of validation you get outside your marriage is very superficial. You can be at your best and no need see your dark shadows. You can be the perfect person that you want to be to the om/ow but it can not, can never be the real you because the real you has a home, a family, baggage. We look for superficial validation because it is easy to come by. An instant confidence booster.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

GFN....Personally, I agree with you. Attention from other men means nothing to me, nor about me. When another man shows me "that" kind of attention, it does not make me think "oh my, I must be lookin' good". Nope. Instead, it just makes me think "yep, men are men, they notice women", and that's it.


----------



## GoodForNothing (Feb 25, 2013)

These are good answers everyone thanks. I guess I just was wondering how much of it all is miscommunication. Like she thinks that each man is "in love" or whatever and really he's just thinking of her until the next woman happens along as one answer discussed. 

I don't think that's the case with her EA, or maybe it was, but the other OMs for sure I think it was just men wanting sex. But I guess if she was open to that type of attention then this is all grasping at straws anyway.

None of it can be good whatever the motivation, but I was just thinking if she could see that she isn't something special in another man's eyes, but is just being used, maybe she would see it differently. 

But I could be wrong and maybe I'm assuming ignorance on her part when it really isn't there. She's said some things to me that make me think she's really more aware than I thought at first. Disillusionment over a wife is tough.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Some people are just hard core flirts and somehow feel entitled to do whatever they please as long as it doesn't cross some imaginary line. An unapologetic flirt is probably going to be hard to change.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I feel as parents....we need to teach our girls from a young age just how men ARE...they are hardwired to eyeball, talk and flirt with pretty women, they hope to get them into







many times...and other times....just for a RISE.....it is even validation to the men when the pretty girl responds.....this raises his temperature....yet still....it means virtually NOTHING of true worth -other than she is not a "dog" and "doable" by his hormonal state.

Then such men move on to the next beauty and say all the same lines to her as well...it's all for a "hook", but with what intentions? How many are seeking something REAL...and if she is married.... why?? 

When I was younger, I always felt the most "special" , those compliments holding more Weight/ worth ~ when it was spoken of my intelligence, or something I accomplished over my Looks... 

When I met my husband I told him he was different than other guys..... because he didn't spew all those "flirting lines"...I think I sealed my fate when I told him I didn't like flirting... which was kinda dumb... we should have enjoyed a little more of that in our youth..


----------



## brightlight (Feb 18, 2013)

In general men are not as choosy about who they mate with. That's their biology. 

If your wife gets a lot of attention then I am sure she is attractive (on a universal scale.) But if she thinks that every man that shows her interest is in love with her then she is deluded. I am guessing she is not 17 years old and thus has a teenager's sentiments.

Isn't this how men used to get laid in the old days. Tell a girl they loved her and would marry her etc. then disappeared leaving a ruined reputation and may be an unwanted baby.

Probably still happens a lot now thinking about it.


----------



## GoBlue (Feb 21, 2013)

For me there is a thrill in an outsider showing interest. That said, if I were happy in my current situation I probably would not feel the same way. It the current situation is dim or if I am feeling ignored, anyone who is excited to talk to me can brighten my day. I never act on it but it's nice to know that people who want me exist. I hope that makes sense and doesn't sound too horrible.


----------



## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> The husband is in the unique position to validate her on all levels not just one. The type of validation you get outside your marriage is very superficial.


I agree with this and so are wives to their husbands.Most men desire at least over long term more validation than they are attractive enough to their wife for her to want to have sex with him.Thats why words of admiration /affirmation are usually a very important ingredient to feeling desired as a whole person.And not just "your hot".O.K ..now that you have told me what you admire about me that sorry ..I can find a rank stranger to tell me ,what else about me do you find attractive?(NOT excluding I'm hot..LOL).

Honestly?If I had an EA? It wouldn't be to be validated I'm attractive enough for a man to want to or be willing to have sex with me.Its flattering on some level depending on the man at a "base" level but its nothing that validates me as an individual that has anything to really do with "me" .Its not a "talent" /character /personality trait or accomplishment.


----------



## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Oh and yes.To me?Once a man knows I'm married heavy flirtation /suggestions / is 1) an insult to me but 2) I lose respect for the man.And I'm not talking about goofing around a little or a mild compliment..and not at all about non "physical';sexual related compliments or admiration.

Oh and its disrespectful and insulting to my husband.As well as if some woman (knowing he is married) is pouring on the flirts and suggestions I'm being disrespected and insulted as well.


----------



## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

Its amazing to me how low some people will go. They know a person is married, the might know that there are children and yet they pour it on and take things as far as they can. Scum.


----------



## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Shoto1984 said:


> Its amazing to me how low some people will go. They know a person is married, the might know that there are children and yet they pour it on and take things as far as they can. Scum.


Yeah I had a man strike up a conversation with me in the ailse of a vitamin store.Like he was asking me if I knew about "insert supplement" next thing he was going on about he was retired and all he had left to do was travel the world and and spend his money exotic places.He named the supplements he takes that keep him "virile" like a 20 year old (wink)..I had on a wedding ring but he still mentioned "so you are married right'? I'm like yes..but he did not stop.Including he was divorced and available (wink).How much he enjoyed our conversation ya know hard to find people (BS ) that are into all the health foods and supplements and like talking about it.DAMN I just wish we could talk some more sometime (of course looking me up and down) ...too bad there is just no way we couldnt just "talk" sometime..lingering as he said that..I just said yeah that would be "nice" but I really don't feel like it would be "appropriate"(yeah like get picked up in a vitamin store to have an affair really gonna happen(roll eyes)I said maybe in another life.He finally said "what a shame but I understand.

I dont fault him for just asking.But when he kept going on after I confirmed I was married thats when he started to disgust me.


----------



## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I feel as parents....we need to teach our girls from a young age just how men ARE...they are hardwired to eyeball, talk and flirt with pretty women, they hope to get them into
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think that men who flirt _all __the __time _with women married or unmarried are doing a disservice to _themselves_. Yes we need educate our daughters but we also need to educate or sons. Of course we need to teach them to respect women, but it goes beyond that. Some men enjoy being a "player" but being a "player" isn't something to _aspire _to. It creates all sorts of problems from unwanted pregnancies, risk of STD, financial ruin etc etc We also need to teach them to respect other men. Truly. Men are left out there to fight it out amongst themselves. Many men here can attest to the fact that they hate the OM when they find out their wives are having some sort of affair. Some men evn have confrontations with the OM. Really we need to get rid of gender boundaries and just teach all our children respect. Respect for others and respect for themselves.


----------



## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Yes we need educate our daughters but we also need to educate or sons. Of course we need to teach them to respect women, but it goes beyond that.


YES SIR! Women should not be charged with just trying to "deal with how men are"..Our sons can learn proper respect and etiquette. Not just be given the free pass you cant "help it' your guy that's beyond your control.You son (I have 3) are not "entitled" to women.They weren't put here on earth for you to sexually harrass and that's what it is after a certain point.Not your God given right because of some sort of "hard wiring".


----------



## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

dallasapple said:


> YES SIR! Women should not be charged with just trying to "deal with how men are"..Our sons can learn proper respect and etiquette. Not just be given the free pass you cant "help it' your guy that's beyond your control.You son (I have 3) are not "entitled" to women.They weren't put here on earth for you to sexually harrass and that's what it is after a certain point.Not your God given right because of some sort of "hard wiring".


I agree. I have to say though that women often set themeselves up. My neice is just starting to get into boys. She is FB friends with a certain boy who is her "best friend" but she intensely dislikes his new "girlfriend". Mostly because this girl wants the boy to make her his priority and have less to do with my neice. But you know what? That girl is well within her rights to want that. And the angrier my neice becomes about it the more I see that she has more than just friendly feelings for this boy. IMHO, my neice is setting herself up for some serious heartbreak before she can even drive! But more than that she is starting a pattern of being disrespectful of other girls/women and encouraging behaviour in boys/men that should not be tolerated.


----------



## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> That girl is well within her rights to want that. And the angrier my neice becomes about it the more I see that she has more than just friendly feelings for this boy. IMHO, my neice is setting herself up for some serious heartbreak before she can even drive! But more than that she is starting a pattern of being disrespectful of other girls/women and encouraging behaviour in boys/men that should not be tolerated.


Oh yes...teenage drama ! She needs readily available and ongoing guidance.Including someone could tell her place your self in his GF's shoes? What if he was YOUR BF and she was "just a friend" ?

But in general in my experience with the girls? OH my gosh.Yes a little "righeous" jealousy is one thing..but some of them can be SOOOOOOOOO possesive it makes my head spin.And demanding!My at the time 16 yo had a GF..she would get "pissed off" if my son did not respond to her text in minutes..10 minutes?He had to explain what he was doing and why he took so long.She also had a set of double standards that was so obvious.My son innocently said one time to me ..."I have to be on a short leash she gets to be on a long one"..:rofl:


----------



## Hortensia (Feb 1, 2013)

GoodForNothing said:


> I posted here earlier this week and have gotten more familiar with the site since. A lot of good info here and I appreciate all the knowledge.
> 
> My situation is that my wife apparently had an EA going on a few years back, and has had lesser attachments to other other men since then. None are still around but I still worry about the next time this happens and she still has men approach her regularly. Lots of work to be done on my part as others have made clear.
> 
> ...


I know where you're coming from. I get hit on by men all the time, in spite of them knowing that I'm married. It used to flatter me but not anymore. It's rather kind of tiresome and annoying, as I just want to make some friends. Some understand and back off when I say I'm happily married. Others come up with all sort of lines. My "fav" is : " He doesn't have to know..." Really...what the hell is in people's mind?? 

How does your wife respond? If she just enjoys a little attention, but always say she is married and turns down the going out offers, you have nothing to worry. You should be proud to have a pretty wife. But if she enjoys it too much, to the point of flirting and encouraging, there is a problem. 

I wouldn't want everybody to stop noticing me and paying me compliments though. It's a validation of confidence. Not that my H doesn't provide validation, but you know what I mean.

A small joke : " When a woman marries, she trades the attention of all men for the lack of attention of a single one "


----------



## I got this (Feb 25, 2013)

No but thats not the issue

Needing validation from outside sources to the point appropriate boundaries are crossed is pathetic but its no more pathetic tanlosuy husbands that fail to meet the needs of their wives by dropping the romance and pursuit efforts toward their wives at a about 18 months to three years into a marriage and expect her to still love the relationship instead of just find it somewaht satisfying whille staying put for the financial incentives and for the kids and make teh best of it. 

It is an indicator of a lack of self esteem that is either caused by their spouses neglect of their needs in this area, or emotional abuse or some missing ingedient in another area of their lives.

Just because woman tolerate a marriage doesnt mean husbands are doing their best to romance their wives. By best I mean educating themselves on the ways of their woman and keeping up the effort she may deserve for an eternity


----------



## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Mr Used To Know said:


> No but thats not the issue
> 
> Needing validation from outside sources to the point appropriate boundaries are crossed is pathetic but its no more pathetic tanlosuy husbands that fail to meet the needs of their wives by dropping the romance and pursuit efforts toward their wives at a about 18 months to three years into a marriage and expect her to still love the relationship instead of just find it somewaht satisfying whille staying put for the financial incentives and for the kids and make teh best of it.
> 
> ...


I think I will flirt with you some.


----------



## Hortensia (Feb 1, 2013)

Just because woman tolerate a marriage doesnt mean husbands are doing their best to romance their wives. By best I mean educating themselves on the ways of their woman and keeping up the effort she may deserve for an eternity[/QUOTE]

:iagree:
So many people think that once they're married, their efforts can stop. So many husbands rarely compliment their wives anymore, stop bringing her flowers and small atentions, forget her bday, don't put anymore effort in maintaining romance, etc.
Getting married should not be the end of "wooing". 

Here's a great thread about validating spouse's needs and things we should ask ourselves:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/39565-validating-your-spouse.html


----------



## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Hortensia said:


> Just because woman tolerate a marriage doesnt mean husbands are doing their best to romance their wives. By best I mean educating themselves on the ways of their woman and keeping up the effort she may deserve for an eternity


:iagree:
So many people think that once they're married, their efforts can stop. So many husbands rarely compliment their wives anymore, stop bringing her flowers and small atentions, forget her bday, don't put anymore effort in maintaining romance, etc.
Getting married should not be the end of "wooing". 

Here's a great thread about validating spouse's needs and things we should ask ourselves:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/39565-validating-your-spouse.html[/QUOTE]

Whats really funny "my friend"  is my husband NEVER stopped the "romance"..the "your so sexy comments" flowers ..wanting to "be with me" ..of course he is a poon hound..O.K fine.What happened with him was thats it as far as "validation " just like how a "new man" would try and "hook me"..but after marriage he began INVALIDATING me and critising me or just "blank" in all other areas..Oddly it felt just as "superficial" his attraction to me as some guy I didn't know who just wanted as piece of ***.

Maybe that is why in part I'm so "non impressed' with other men that would like to tell me I'm so "hot and sexy" and yeah "want some fries with that shake" and "that's what I'm talking about" ! Its like "stick a fork (not a penis) in me I'm DONE..Tell me SOMETHING ELSE!! ...and besides beauty fades then what are you left with?Including BESIDES trying to take care of what you were given ..ya know keep in shape "upkeep" ..what is on my outside I didn't have anything to do with.Thats not "who I am".

Hope that makes sense.


----------



## I got this (Feb 25, 2013)

dallasapple said:


> of course he is a poon hound..O.K fine.
> 
> What happened a "new man" would try and "hook me"..
> 
> ...


Here is some validation for you that is not about appearance. 

There is nothing sexier than a woman that can clearly see bull**** and has the total comfort and courage to call bull**** when she sees it. I love your no bull**** direct post. Very ehem...stimulating. 

Yes it makes sense. I joke with my wife that there is nothing sexier than me taking out the garbage, changing her oil (in the car :rofl or mowing the lawn (meaning grass :rofl or help her carrying in the groceries without being asked. That has nothing to do with my physical appearance. 

The key is without being asked for some head scratching reason I am working to understand that is hidden in "because you were thinking of or thought of me" land :scratchhead:


----------



## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Mr Used To Know said:


> Here is some validation for you that is not about appearance.
> 
> There is nothing sexier than a woman that can clearly see bull**** and has the total comfort and courage to call bull**** when she sees it. I love your no bull**** direct post. Very ehem...stimulating.
> 
> ...



Thank you..that means a lot to me.You have validated me in a positive way and I appreciate that.You know I'm like every human..I wonder..If I offfer anything positive..and for me "hot ass" isn't "it"..Not to go on but your kind words made me weep.

But anyway telling your wife nice things is good..Your wife knows you are there ..and you love her..but she probably wants to hear it.Out of your mouth to her..If she is funny..??If she has a knack for compassion..if she has a green thumb..etc..Say those things you think..YOu will win her over..And I dont mean "kiss ass"and make **** up..Like really what do you admire about her...and tell her..(INCLUDING she is hot not EXCLUDING)..


----------



## I got this (Feb 25, 2013)

Hortensia said:


> Getting married should not be the end of "wooing"


^This

I saved my marriage by restarting the woo woo. I back slid for six months every six months about four times and then wonder where my wife I know. loved and married vanished to.

When I note my workoholic neglectful ways, drop that idiocy abd I reignite the woo woo to get us back on trrack. 

In fear of losing that ability and to avoid any more less than satisfying down time, I read books and articles and chilling TAM stories to scare me into make my efforts permanant and consistent.

It works (for now)


----------



## Hortensia (Feb 1, 2013)

Mr Used To Know said:


> ^This
> 
> I saved my marriage by restarting the woo woo. I back slid for six months every six months about four times and then wonder where my wife I know. loved and married vanished to.
> 
> ...


For us too. Keep up the good job !


----------



## Hortensia (Feb 1, 2013)

dallasapple said:


> :iagree:
> So many people think that once they're married, their efforts can stop. So many husbands rarely compliment their wives anymore, stop bringing her flowers and small atentions, forget her bday, don't put anymore effort in maintaining romance, etc.
> Getting married should not be the end of "wooing".
> 
> ...


Whats really funny "my friend"  is my husband NEVER stopped the "romance"..the "your so sexy comments" flowers ..wanting to "be with me" ..of course he is a poon hound..O.K fine.What happened with him was thats it as far as "validation " just like how a "new man" would try and "hook me"..but after marriage he began INVALIDATING me and critising me or just "blank" in all other areas..Oddly it felt just as "superficial" his attraction to me as some guy I didn't know who just wanted as piece of ***.

Maybe that is why in part I'm so "non impressed' with other men that would like to tell me I'm so "hot and sexy" and yeah "want some fries with that shake" and "that's what I'm talking about" ! Its like "stick a fork (not a penis) in me I'm DONE..Tell me SOMETHING ELSE!! ...and besides beauty fades then what are you left with?Including BESIDES trying to take care of what you were given ..ya know keep in shape "upkeep" ..what is on my outside I didn't have anything to do with.Thats not "who I am".

Hope that makes sense.[/QUOTE]

Awww, Dallas, sorry to hear that. Have you talked to him about the "invalidations" and the criticism and the way they nullify his positive gestures ? sounds also like your love language is not about flattering and looks but about more practical things like household help, listening to you when you're speaking, so on. 
Those too are forms of validations, I find them just as important as a little compliment and a sudden kiss just because. Yes looks fade. When we grow old we won't care anymore...but while still having them, it's nice to enjoy them and hear a compliment


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Fledgling said:


> I think that men who flirt _all __the __time _with women married or unmarried are doing a disservice to _themselves_. Yes we need educate our daughters *but we also need to educate or sons.* Of course we need to teach them to respect women, but it goes beyond that. Some men enjoy being a "player" but being a "player" isn't something to _aspire _to.












Our 1st 3 sons ...all appear honorable Hopeless Romantics... must have got a double dose from ME & DAD....helps to have a Father to look up too...even genes play a role I believe. 

Just as Boys with HIGHER Test...they would be more WIRED for "playing" ...unless they actively tame it/ restrain it/ discipline it - get into sports or something. 

Never forget a conversation with son # 3 .. off the heels of breaking up with his 1st GF (back with her now).... I asked if he regretted having those 7 months with her.... he looked at me..told me he'd rather not have been with her... I asked "Why"? (telling him breakups are a part of life, he should get to know many girls).......he looked at me & said ..."Because I wasted my 1st kiss".....then adds ..."I'm not a Player MOM". 
I was touched by that. 

Adore my boys... 2nd son's been with the same girl for 16 months now (he's only 15!).... Oldest son is waiting for the Love of his life... 



> It creates all sorts of problems from unwanted pregnancies, risk of STD, financial ruin etc etc We also need to teach them to respect other men. Truly. Men are left out there to fight it out amongst themselves. Many men here can attest to the fact that they hate the OM when they find out their wives are having some sort of affair. Some men even have confrontations with the OM. Really we need to get rid of gender boundaries and just teach all our children respect. Respect for others and respect for themselves.


 Yes... Integrity in all things...and Respecting others boundaries...most especially marital boundaries... I don't feel this means men & women can't talk and compliment each other though... I think we all know where that LINE is... when we feel a RISE and need to catch ourselves...not allow something to snowball. 

I really feel strongly though....that the Romance needs to be kept alive at home....not to allow apathy to seep in our marriages...determine to keep FLIRTING.... Teasing...the sex life humming, Validating / appreciating each other - to keep us feeling young, desired & ALIVE....this should never die.. if/when it starts to go, some people become weak... most especially if "Words of affirmation" is near the top of their Love Languages, Or Touch & they are faced with a sexless affectionless marriage... this is just NOT OK. 

What we have at home....we don't seek out & about, but when you are starving, the temptation grows. This is just human...and it could lead to a lot of trouble.


----------



## GoodForNothing (Feb 25, 2013)

Hortensia said:


> I know where you're coming from. I get hit on by men all the time, in spite of them knowing that I'm married. It used to flatter me but not anymore. It's rather kind of tiresome and annoying, as I just want to make some friends. Some understand and back off when I say I'm happily married. Others come up with all sort of lines. My "fav" is : " He doesn't have to know..." Really...what the hell is in people's mind??
> 
> How does your wife respond? If she just enjoys a little attention, but always say she is married and turns down the going out offers, you have nothing to worry. You should be proud to have a pretty wife. But if she enjoys it too much, to the point of flirting and encouraging, there is a problem.
> 
> ...


Absolutely, but unfortunately my wife is one who enjoys it all too much. Basically my other thread was about finding she'd had what was an EA and maybe a PA years back. Ever since then, I've come to find, she's always had one or more men at work or socially who are pursuing her. 

The big thing to me is when I found out, I found out from others and this after she lied to me when I inquired. I'm one of those apparently rare husbands who pays attention to what his wife says (joking) and it didn't add up, I asked her, and she lied. Others told me the truth, and it's been an ongoing issue ever since with her really almost living for this attention in some ways. 

On top of that, everything about us as a married couple must be vague, vague, vague. What I mean is when I finally get exasperated and ask my wife, flat out, what do you want? She won't tell. She hems and haws and I have to figure out what's going on and why. 

To those who have mentioned a husband being responsible if the marriage is starved of romance, I agree. The problem is I have done a great job of keeping romance alive and kicking even after 16 or 17 years together. My wife says so and so does everyone I've spoken with. 

We're that couple that still does the early on sort of cheesy baby talk, lovey dovey junk even all these years later. But no effect really, she has needs that include having men talk to her like she's cheap and letting men cross boundaries on a regular basis, nothing physical but visual and in their words. So of course I'm biased toward myself but I think I've been a good husband, and her needs have some inner source for her that I can't get at or help with.

But my wife is one of those who feels like a great compliment from a husband who loves her is fine (she says this), but being wooed in the corner by a drunk in a bar is exhilarating to her. So I started this thread hoping maybe I could get some insight into whether or not pointing out all of this to her would matter or help (and everyone's answers have been great by the way).


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

Preselection is a great tool for married guys to use to increase their attractiveness in the eyes of their wife. So, no. Outside attention is always welcome.


----------



## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

GoodForNothing said:


> I posted here earlier this week and have gotten more familiar with the site since. A lot of good info here and I appreciate all the knowledge.
> 
> My situation is that my wife apparently had an EA going on a few years back, and has had lesser attachments to other other men since then. None are still around but I still worry about the next time this happens and she still has men approach her regularly. Lots of work to be done on my part as others have made clear.
> 
> ...


Disclaimer - haven't read the replies.

I mean no disrespect but I think your wife may suffer from low self-esteem. Being gorgeous is not an automatic self-esteem builder. Healthy self-esteem comes from accomplishments.

Now you may come back & list all of her accomplishments, but you don't know if said accomplishments give her self-esteem so having men, married and/or single falling all over her is giving her a boost.

Remember there are millions of gorgeous people walking around. Most of them don't "need" or "crave" the kind of attention your wife does. They have good self-esteem. They may enjoy some attention & compliments & that is very normal.

Given the fact that she has had an EA & somehow (does she point it out to you?) you know that she thinks all these random men are into her, I think this is a real problem in your marriage or any other marriage for that matter.

I will give you an example. My husband is much better looking than me. He is 6'2" & looks like Richard Gere. Everyone tells him that upon meeting him; he's a very handsome man. But unlike your wife, he doesn't feel like other women are "in to him"...not because he is married but because he's rather humble & his self-esteem comes from being a kind person, a good Father & can shoot in the 70's on the golf course


----------



## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

You can do everything right. You can be the romantic, warm, attentive, hard working, supportive, loving, caring etc etc spouse and still get dumped on. If you need outside attention for whatever reason do everyone a favor and get divorced first. Short of that at least give your spouse notice that you're going to start cheating so they have to opportunity to make an informed choice.


----------



## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

I think we'd have to discuss what we mean by "attention". If what we're talking about is being told you look nice today or you did well on some work task etc then I agree. However, if we're talking about anything going on that you wouldn't be 100% comfortable with your spouse watching / listening in on then, in my book, you are cheating.


----------



## stuck in los angeles (Feb 15, 2013)

I think we should define what we mean by attention. There's good reason for the workplace sexual harassment rules in place, in my opinion. Some people have hard time knowing the difference between compliments and flirting or pickup lines. The problem in my marriage, is that the attention my wife gets goes further than the "You look good today" sort of compliment and are more along the lines of hitting on my wife. Similar to the OP here, my wife seems to thrive on the attention. My wife likes to throw improper innuendos out there too, in effect inviting the attention and then plays along to keep it going. Or at least she doesn't shut it down when it goes too far, so I have to assume she's playing along. Some of the men my wife works with are pigs and seem to ignore the rules anyway. One man my wife knows at work keeps inviting my wife along on a yearly male coworker, no spouses allowed excursion to Vegas. I'm about to call him up and ask him if I can invite his wife to Vegas with me and some buddies, just to see if he gets the point. We're going to MC for this and other reasons.

I think it's a far better idea to show some dignity for yourself, show some respect for your marriage and your spouse and grow up.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"But no effect really, she has needs that include having men talk to her like she's cheap and letting men cross boundaries on a regular basis, nothing physical but visual and in their words."

I simply don't believe that a PA has not occured at some point. Maybe several.


----------



## GoodForNothing (Feb 25, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> "But no effect really, she has needs that include having men talk to her like she's cheap and letting men cross boundaries on a regular basis, nothing physical but visual and in their words."
> 
> I simply don't believe that a PA has not occured at some point. Maybe several.


I've been trying to come to terms with the possibility for most of this past week. My original thread got me thinking about the whole issue. I have a feeling a PA might have happened with the original EA guy from years back, and of course if that happened she'll never tell me. 

But her way of talking about that is entirely different from these other situations, and I was nothing short of a lousy husband in those days. We both were pretty bad. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if things went beyond an EA then. 

If a PA happened at any other time I have no idea about it, but I suppose if one happened then another could have very easily of course. But how can I ever find out the truth? Maybe I can't. It was pure gut instinct that had me thinking there was a problem both in that EA situation and in the other situation a couple of years back. But she lied to my face about both so there's no way for me to find out anything more now. 

I mean I guess she came clean about the EA finally, but only because I knew about the rest, and her whole thing is not admitting to having cheated because she never slept with anyone, so I assume she's never going to admit anything like a PA.


----------



## stuck in los angeles (Feb 15, 2013)

You could ask her to take a poly and volunteer to do one too. My situation is so much like yours, it isn't funny. I was not attentive and neglected the marriage for a while too. That's when it started to go downhill. It took a bit of that intuitive in the gut feeling that there was possibly something going on for me to start realizing I'd better watch what's going on and also look at my part in creating the environment for it as well. Get into marriage counseling if you're not already. Marriages need nurturing and attention to survive but also you need to be strong and not be a door mat. I was a bit of a door mat and I think it lost some respect from her.


----------



## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

EAs and seeking attention are not the same thing but they do share poor boundaries.

There is a big difference between getting attention like at work, at starbucks and so on and purposely looking for attention from other men. 

I am big on meeting needs but some women seek out validation explicitly from other men. They do want attention from their husband but it is not the same thing as getting it from a stranger. For one thing they may feel that their husband has as someone put it "wife goggles". But I think it transcends this.

To just say you cannot deal with this is disengenuous. I get the personality part. But this type of behavior can be unduly enabled. We humans are much more adaptable than some would suggest. We very much can alter our behavior. You have to understand how to do it and most importantly ... want to it. Just saying I can't help myself does not fly. "The devil made me do it".

To say women are not capable of this is insulting to ... women.

GFN,

After my EA my wife and I did His Needs Her Needs together. I learned from this. It did scared me as I thought I was immune. I got better boundaries. And I learned my wife loved me more than I could have imagined or hoped for. 

I am not saying you did but it sounds like the EA was not really dealt with.


----------



## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

GoodForNothing said:


> I've been trying to come to terms with the possibility for most of this past week. My original thread got me thinking about the whole issue. I have a feeling a PA might have happened with the original EA guy from years back, and of course if that happened she'll never tell me.
> 
> But her way of talking about that is entirely different from these other situations, and I was nothing short of a lousy husband in those days. We both were pretty bad. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if things went beyond an EA then.
> 
> ...


An EA is unfaithful. One can argue cheating or not. It depends.

Inappropriate Behavior --> Unfaithfulness -- Cheating.

Inappropriate behavior by my definition is making poor choices but not purposely to be unfaithful.

Unfaithfulness is when someone consciously does anything that is not faithful. Like lying. If you have to hide what you are doing you are unfaithful.

I have no idea why some people put their boundary at PIV sex. Like other things are not cheating. But in reality cheating is not the killer. Unfaithful behavior is.

I'll be honest with you and I am not trying to make this about me. But I do not consider my EA cheating. Why? Because like most people in EAs you do not realize in the early stages you are in an EA. My wife clued me in that I was. I doubted her but I did the faithful thing because I loved her. I changed jobs. Only after I went through withdrawal did I see she was right. Call this what you want but I was not banging another woman at the motel. I got too close to someone and it became an emotional bond. Most people call this having a very close OSF friend. I now see this as an EA. No excuse but indeed there is absolutely no question that if it happened again I was being unfaithful because I know better now. if this had gone on it would have ended my marriage.

So maybe this is the disconnect. Odds are it is. What was the consequences of her affair?


----------



## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

Reading some more of the responses I have to say I am more convinced than ever that men and women can't be "just friends". It doesn't matter if one or both of the parties involved is married. Even in couples friends it would be wierd if I was as close to my best friends husband as I am to her or if my husband was as close to my best friend as he is to her husband.

When you actively seek attention of a friendly sort outside of the home from a member of the opposite sex you are, in effect, "keeping your options open" and making it nearly impossible for your spouse to fully meet your needs. It sabatoges your relationship.

Entropy, I agree with you that people don't intentionally fall into EA. I think that's why EAs are usually easier to deal with on the part of the spouse. I also agree though that once you are emotionally involved...that's what makes a PA look not so bad..


----------



## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

GoodForNothing said:


> Pursuit by other men isn't really the compliment my wife thinks it is? If a man at work or out and about will approach her that way, isn't he showing how little he thinks of her? How little he or others respect our marriage? And also that those who encourage her in this kind of behavior are not really her friends or admirers?
> 
> Just some thoughts but I was curious what people might think. Also, should I ask her about any of this or not?


I haven't read replies (yet) but I think that this is a form of validation still. It's on par with getting a compliment about a new haircut... when a man approaches me, I feel like I'm attractive to him in some way. In general, a compliment or validation makes us feel more receptive and interested in another person.

As you've said, that doesn't necessarily mean the other person thinks highly of me. A person can compliment my haircut even if they hate my guts, just as a guy can be testing the waters to see if he can get laid. 

On the other hand, it's also possible for a man to genuinely find someone appealing. Your post gives me a hint why your wife is receptive to this, though:

You sound like you are somewhat critical and subtly insulting to your wife and others. It oozes through your post that you don't think others could possibly find her truly worthwhile and appealing. They're ALL just after one thing and couldn't be more complex than that. 

It would benefit you to start seeing the many, many traits that make her who she is - even in the eyes of outsiders. She may have a great sense of humor, keen intelligence, or great empathy that draws people to her. Some of those people may not respect boundaries, but it doesn't mean their interest in her is purely sexual, either. Both she, and they, are more than just the sum of their organs.


----------



## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> It would benefit you to start seeing the many, many traits that make her who she is - even in the eyes of outsiders. She may have a great sense of humor, keen intelligence, or great empathy that draws people to her. Some of those people may not respect boundaries, but it doesn't mean their interest in her is purely sexual, either. Both she, and they, are more than just the sum of their organs.



BRAVO!!!!!

:smthumbup:


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Given my life experience, i think outside / third party opinion is a good thing.

My parents for most of my life have told me that
1. I am unattractive
2. my hair looks funny (my maternal grandmother was a veritable laughing machine on the subject)
3. I dress funny......
4. I am not that smart / am stupid/ don't know what I am talking about...

any time that there was outside validation to the contrary they found some way to play it down

When I look back on my childhood, I think that there was an element of making it difficult for me to make and maintain friendships.

I remember a couple of exchanges with my mother that went
Me: Two friends from high school have invited me to X
Mother: That's great that you have gotten an invitation. But I don't how you will get there.
Me: My friends have offered that they will come here to pick me up and bring me home.
Mother: I think I need to ask your father if it is ok......

I've noticed that my parents liked passing on gossip about me and giving me that look that it must necessarily be meant as negative. If anyone is nice to me, it must be because they feel sorry for me.

I have also noticed this in other situations. anyone who is *****y and wants to justify their poor treatment of some in particular, then you hear, oh, nobody likes her. She has no friends and so on.

i remember with my exH, when I expressed concern about his overtly deferential behavior with his friend's wife, he tried to reassure with "nobody likes her," "she has no friends,". When I pointed out to him that in the last month we had to parties that were of her friends, he said "Well, she has no old friends. these friends are her new friends." Hookay.........

And one more example........

the relationship with my fiancé got off to a rocky start as he had unfinished business with another woman who is (still) 21 years younger than I am....... I realise now that the "jokes" about my age were influenced by her and also the questions like "how long have you been divorced?....."

It seems to me that his "jokes" didn't stop until the same time that he started to admit that he could see men checking me out "all time" and even when we went to planned activities he knows that when men introduce themselves to me, it's not to be just friends.......

As you can imagine, all of this life experience makes me very sensitive to third party / independent opinion.

I am not one who wants to have a bevy of men at my beck and call to keep my SO in check, but I do notice that once we have left a party or other social activity where I have gotten attention (both from men and women), he seems to be very happy. I think that his EA having provided a ready made social life for him was one of the attractions......

anyway, for better or for worse, you can see why third party validation is useful to an individual. In fact, as I type this, I think of how often my mother was constantly trying to put me in positions where she could say how I was....... I studied French in high school, for example, she would ask me from time how to pronounce a French word /phrase and would have her own opinion how already as to how to pronounce...... (French is very unphonetic..... so).


----------



## GoodForNothing (Feb 25, 2013)

KathyBatesel said:


> I haven't read replies (yet) but I think that this is a form of validation still. It's on par with getting a compliment about a new haircut... when a man approaches me, I feel like I'm attractive to him in some way. In general, a compliment or validation makes us feel more receptive and interested in another person.
> 
> As you've said, that doesn't necessarily mean the other person thinks highly of me. A person can compliment my haircut even if they hate my guts, just as a guy can be testing the waters to see if he can get laid.
> 
> ...


As I make clear in my original post, I'm asking from the point of view of someone whose wife was engaged in at least one EA, possibly a PA I've come to learn, and that behavior has continued through our marriage for many years. I'm trying to find a way to convey to my wife that when men pursue her in a way that both she and they understand as sexual, for a long time (EAs are not quick compliments about someone's haircut), they aren't being genuinely interested in her as a person but instead are making assumptions about her and her marriage. Obviously if I've stuck by my wife for many years despite this constant uncertainty in what she wants and how to deal with it, doing my best to be a good husband which she agrees with (she says regularly she has no complaints but sees a husband's validation as being not the same as external validation), I'm not simply showing contempt for her or seeing her as a mere sum of her sex organs. I'm trying to protect my marriage, nothing more or less. I'm not sure what I wrote that gave you enough insight into my marriage or my personality to automatically condemn me as a misanthrope or diagnose me as unable to appreciate my wife. I'm working awfully hard for far too long to keep this marriage going if I have no respect or appreciation for her.


----------



## GoodForNothing (Feb 25, 2013)

Entropy3000 said:


> An EA is unfaithful. One can argue cheating or not. It depends.
> 
> Inappropriate Behavior --> Unfaithfulness -- Cheating.
> 
> ...


I guess I see the distinction you're making between unfaithful and cheating. It seems like a fine line though. It's probable that my wife's EA was never dealt with properly, though the main reason is simply that I didn't know the full extent of what went on until last year or so, meaning that almost a decade had past in the meantime. 

I realize that a person sinking into an EA doesn't always know what's happening until things have become a problem. That might be one of the main reasons they happen so easily in the workplace. One time is one thing, but I guess I worry that my wife seeks this behavior, always setting herself up for a repeat problem. Or who knows, maybe something else happened and I just don't know about it yet.

I agree also that the boundary has to be a lot sooner than just the PIV situation, because by then things have gone way beyond an easy fix. I don't think that is our boundary, but I'll have to talk with her about it and make that clear rather than just assuming again. She seems to fall back on that point so often when claiming it was all okay that I think she knows that's not the real boundary, but she can benefit by claiming it is.


----------



## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

GoodForNothing said:


> I guess I see the distinction you're making between unfaithful and cheating. It seems like a fine line though. It's probable that my wife's EA was never dealt with properly, though the main reason is simply that I didn't know the full extent of what went on until last year or so, meaning that almost a decade had past in the meantime.
> 
> I realize that a person sinking into an EA doesn't always know what's happening until things have become a problem. That might be one of the main reasons they happen so easily in the workplace. One time is one thing, but I guess I worry that my wife seeks this behavior, always setting herself up for a repeat problem. Or who knows, maybe something else happened and I just don't know about it yet.
> 
> I agree also that the boundary has to be a lot sooner than just the PIV situation, because by then things have gone way beyond an easy fix. I don't think that is our boundary, but I'll have to talk with her about it and make that clear rather than just assuming again. She seems to fall back on that point so often when claiming it was all okay that I think she knows that's not the real boundary, but she can benefit by claiming it is.


I was using the extreme to make a point. What exactly IS cheating. Some folks often look for cheating when unfaithfulness is right in front of them.

So when someone says I never cheated ... what are they really saying. To me willful unfaithfulness is the dealbreaker. If my wife is lying to me and meeting up with another man behind my back, that is cheating to me. Whatever they do. 

BUT, I think one real key to this is having well defined boundaries that the couple agrees upon. Because if one purposely crosses a boundary that is unfaithful. But if the boundaries are not defined then it is too gray.

And your point about a fine line is very valid. While I can argue that there is a long way between being way too close and ging to a motel I can tell you that EAs can explode overnight. They can ignite very quickly into something more.


----------

