# Why don't dads complain about parenthood..



## BostonBruins32

Interesting read looking into why don't dads complain about parenthood like moms do. Not a blanket assumption for all, but could resonate with some of you. 

Those men that the author talked to in her practice certainly remind me of myself.

Why don’t dads complain about parenthood like moms do? - The Washington Post


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## BetrayedDad

Good question...

I don't think it's gender specific. However, my Ex used to complain nonstop about how hard it was to take care of the kids and I had no idea and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

I do everything now she used to do and more often than she does. Is it a lot of work? Sure. Was it nearly as challenging as she made it out to be? Absolutely not. 

Some people (even self proclaimed, super moms) are just lazy whiners. Funny how being so "busy" with the kids she found plenty of time to cheat on me though.


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## toonaive

BetrayedDad said:


> Good question...
> 
> I don't think it's gender specific. However, my Ex used to complain nonstop about how hard it was to take care of the kids and I had no idea and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
> 
> I do everything now she used to do and more often than she does. Is it a lot of work? Sure. Was it nearly as challenging as she made it out to be? Absolutely not.
> 
> Some people (even self proclaimed, super moms) are just lazy whiners. Funny how being so "busy" with the kids she found plenty of time to cheat on me though.



Aint that the truth! I think some people work to overcome obstacles and some just complain until somebody else does it for them.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano

I agree with Lila. I think it's a gendered way of dealing with stress. Like in all those Women are from Venus Men are from Mars book that talk about gendered communication.

Men have to learn that women will complain to them and not want advice. They just want to ***** and that helps them feel heard and get past the problem.

Women have to learn that constant talk about an issue with a man can make it seem like she isn't listening and doesn't respect him. Once she stops nagging him to do something, he'll do it.

Broad gender stereotypes of course, and we are all going to fit into these two boxes differently or not at all! but in general I think its pretty accurate. 

Or as BetrayedDad said, it could be a lazy whiner.

Or it could be someone who truly regrets having a child


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## Zouz

because women call it chore , while we call it responsibility.


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## BostonBruins32

These type of articles are always a generalized view, not specific for each person. So its not every woman and its not every man. 

The article was sent to me from a friend and really sunk in for me. I can't even recall the last time I sent a text or call or voiced frustration with how my child was behaving(and yes she gives me 45 min tantrums etc). Yet it is now 9am, and i have 3 texts on how bad my daughter is behaving from my wife. She has probably been up about 1.5 hours and is now in preschool until 3pm. But that 1.5 hours was too much. 

I wouldnt dream of complaining about my daughter to my wife, as it would give the appearance that I can't handle it and that could be costly.


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## Fozzy

Lila said:


> I know this is the men's forum, but I read that article and the comments posted. I think the guy that posted this comment hit the nail on the head.
> 
> ​


I agree with this, but I think what the article is pointing out is that while a dad might just go have that drink, he's now subject to more judgment about it than he was in past generations.

So while women will commisserate with each other to blow off steam, a typical guy will not--leaving instead the choice of being judged as less than the optimal parent by doing his own thing, or sucking it up. Basically the same choice women of previous generations were left with.

Women have found more freedom to admit that they aren't perfect parents. Men have found the opposite.


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## *LittleDeer*

I disagree with the article, in that I believe from articles, studies and just from the parents I know that mums still do more of the parenting and housework. That's not to say the opposite doesn't occur, nor to say there aren't some very balanced households out there, but overall I know a lot of burnt out women. 


That said I don't complain much about the behaviour of my children, more that I'm tired from trying to juggle everything- work- study and child rearing. It's not one thing it's all of it.


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## Wolf1974

Guess I never thought about it much before I read this article. My x spent a good deal of time complaining about being a parent to her mom and sister and friends... All female..

I hear the same stuff occasionally at work...a group of women talking about the trials of being a parent to each other while the men are complaining about not getting sex to other men.

I guess my question would be is this complaining or just social interaction with other women on a topic all mothers can understand. Women communicate about thier feelings way more then men which is why they always have a better emotional support system. I mean be honest if you knew a guy at work who *****ed every day about the same thing no matter what it is wouldnt you avoid him?


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## Fozzy

Also take into account how competitive men tend to be with each other. 

Alpha-Dawg talks all week about how he's taking the kids sky-diving right after he finishes his karate tournament and gets out of chef school. Meanwhile Joe Average is exhausted and looking forward to relaxing in front of the TV for a few hours. But now it's in his head. Monday morning--Alpha Dawg will be like "SKY DIVING WAS AWESOME, BRAH! WHAT MOST EXCELLENT THING DID YOU DO FOR YOUR FAMS THIS WEEKEND, BRAH?" Next thing you know, Joe Average is taking the kids rapelling in a rain forest.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Dads are getting more judgement than before but in some ways it is good. 
Before people thought Dad's couldn't do it right so if they managed to get their kids out the door with unmatched clothes, hair a mess and a crappy bagged lunch it was fine because it was soooo cute that he was trying. Seeing a Dad at the park was uncommon so when he did go, he was praised for it. 

Moms were supposed to do it all and do it well so we got more judgement and things we did was expected, not praised. 

Now it's getting more equal, which is good for the big picture. People are realizing that both genders should be and are equally able to parent kids. 
So now more Dads are getting the same pressure us Moms have, they should be able to find ways to cope and vent. That's where judgement would be bad. Let them vent. 

*I also agree with littledeer that the majority of the household and raising of kids is still often falling more on women even when they also work. Hopefully that will keep progressing but it does come with more pressure and judgement*


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## BostonBruins32

*LittleDeer* said:


> I disagree with the article, in that I believe from articles, studies and just from the parents I know that mums still do more of the parenting and housework. That's not to say the opposite doesn't occur, nor to say there aren't some very balanced households out there, but overall I know a lot of burnt out women.
> 
> 
> That said I don't complain much about the behaviour of my children, more that I'm tired from trying to juggle everything- work- study and child rearing. It's not one thing it's all of it.


Good perspective.

I leave my house at 430am and get home around 6pm from work. Daughter in Preschool full days 3 days per week, wife not working. When I get home from work at 6pm, I make dinner about half the time, and I do about 95% of the parenting until bedtime at 830 for the little one. On the weekends, I do about 85% of the parenting and cook most of the meals and fill in with misc household chores. I mention this routine for perspective. 

What I think your reflection misses, Littledeer, is that there are stresses from other sources than just the trials of a sahm or part time working mom etc. My job carries heavy stresses. I am also the sole income earner, so I need to be really good at my job and keeep moving forward AND when there is a co$tly crisis at home, I need to worry about resolving it. I also do my own laundry, cook about 65% of the meals, take care of everything outside the house, and some small chores inside the house. I also have to be the best dad I can be for every minute that my daughter is awake. 

Moms feel tired and stressed? I feel ya, I have a busy schedule too. But look at it this way: my daughter will only be little for so long and I KNEW having a child would not be a cake walk with perfect behavior. Complaining wont get anything done.


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## Anonymous07

BostonBruins32 said:


> Moms feel tired and stressed? I feel ya, I have a busy schedule too. But look at it this way: my daughter will only be little for so long and I KNEW having a child would not be a cake walk with perfect behavior. *Complaining wont get anything done*.


Complaining helps some people blow off steam. People deal with stress differently and many women love to talk it out. They are releasing that frustration instead of keeping it inside. While it might be annoying to others, it does help that person. 

Obviously having a child is not easy. There are days I want to pull my hair out and other days I just can't get enough and don't want it to end. I know for myself, the times where I have complained more often to my husband were the times when I didn't feel heard/understood/appreciated. He works full time and I'm mostly a SAHM. He mentioned my job being "easy", which did not go over well.


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## Healer

*LittleDeer* said:


> I disagree with the article, in that I believe from articles, studies and just from the parents I know that mums still do more of the parenting and housework. That's not to say the opposite doesn't occur, nor to say there aren't some very balanced households out there, but overall I know a lot of burnt out women.
> 
> 
> That said I don't complain much about the behaviour of my children, more that I'm tired from trying to juggle everything- work- study and child rearing. It's not one thing it's all of it.


I know a lot of burnt out men. They just don't announce it to everyone.


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## Forest

Lila said:


> I know this is the men's forum, but I read that article and the comments posted. I think the guy that posted this comment hit the nail on the head.
> 
> ​


Pretty good point to have just come from the comments. I agree that dads can be better at directly fixing some issues. When my daughter was little, it there was something she was doing wrong, my wife tended to worry about it, would try and ask her questions, etc.

I would just tell her to stop. Never seemed to hurt her feelings.


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## John Lee

Women complain more about their jobs too though. I think they just get more out of being vocal about their discontents because of how we're socialized.

For what it's worth, I and other dads at work sometimes commiserate about parenting so it's not like dads are always the stoic plodders they seem to see themselves as.


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## Forest

Healer said:


> I know a lot of burnt out men. They just don't announce it to everyone.


I know there are women out there trapped with bums, and have to really break their backs. I don't hang out with bums, though.

Of the couples we've known, the husbands generally work significantly harder around the home the home/property than the wives. Indoors and out.

Dealing with kids? I'm sure many of the wives spent more time there, but not in my household.


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## john117

BB, maybe you'll find my approach helpful:

Kids 6 and under are pets. They can be trained a bit.

Kids 6-12 are semi-sentient pets. They can be trained.

Kids 12-18 are fun.

Kids 19+ are the most fun.

Your worries at age 3 are nothing like your worries will be at 20. 

I raised two pets, er, children, largely singlehanded. The drama of college applications, college admissions, and the like is far worse than a decade of potty training. The logistics of dealing with two out of state students, soon to be three time zones away students, are far worse than tantrums and last longer too. 

I'm not complaining. I'm bragging . No skydiving tho.


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## alphaomega

Lol.

I complain all the time, but it's with humor.

Dad, how come you don't have an iPad? Because when you were three, you decided to take my last one into the bath to play games on it, and also wash its hair.. Now I can't justify spending money again to use it in as a bath toy.

Dad? How come we don't have a nice stereo like uncle does? Because when you were three, you decided to crank up my good amplifier all the way, and you blew the electronics in it. And besides...uncle doesn't have kids to wreck all his nice stuff....yet.

And ith work mates...

Look at this new video camera I bought to record our kid with.
Me: yup. That will last about three months, until she decides to use the charging cord as a skipping rope, loses it, and it will never be found again...


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## Forest

A little off topic, but I have to mention a woman I know. She is battling ovarian cancer, taking chemo, the whole bit. Doing pretty well, I think. Her current husband is a dozer operator; I learned that her first husband died in some type heavy equipment accident. Think she has 1-2 grown kids.

While her husband was out here working I talking to her awhile about her treatments, drugs, etc. Basically she's not taking any of the nausea or pain meds. Still helping her husband when she can.

She was out there helping me with dragging chains thru mud for that dozer to pull out trees, dragging tree limbs, you name it. I couldn't believe how tough this woman was.

No point to the story, just one tough, and nice woman.


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## Hopelessus

Being a working parent then coming home to the job you really love is still difficult. We are separated now. He has the kids 2 nights a week. I decided it was time for me to get out with friends and have fun. I never did that before basically bc I was so tired at the end of the day..except of course for "recreational activities". Even though I miss my kids terribly, its like a mini vacation.


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## kokonatsu

from my perspective, it definitely depends on the temperament of the child! I've been a nanny for a couple different families, and there was one boy in one family who always drove me batty. his sister was great, but he could tear down the house. I constantly talked with my husband about it, sometimes even during the tantrum, or my sister, just to get out of the situation.. "complaining" could clear my head, give me new ideas, know that someone else was on my side and was there for me. 

i'm also highly sensitive, so in another family i nannied for, i noticed that just the crying baby made me upset! 

this has made me wonder lately about personalities in families. kids can be very different from their parents.. but can also be very similar, and no one knows what kind of kid they've got until that kid shows their personality, so there's no guarantee i'm going to have a quiet, gentle kid. I guess my wonder is a nature vs. nurture kind of wonder. 

anyway, some people are born to be parents and don't find it such a problem, others perhaps never loved it as much or had such a strong desire, or it turned out different from what they thought it would have been like, and that parent's personality needs someone to talk to, even in the middle of the tantrum, so they don't get sucked into the child's crazy. 

(note: NOT saying that parents who don't complain love their kids more! that's ridiculous.)


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## NextTimeAround

Ours was / is the generation where we thought everything was possible.

So in addition to women being able "have it all" ie children plus high powered career, it was also the generation in which every child no matter how severe the condition is would be saved as well.

speaking to my niece who graduates in from university in a couple of months says that she will never have, and her sister has said that as well (my sister had a very bitter divorce and their father has proven himself to be unreliable with them).

My niece was also telling me of a classmate / friend who has two brothers who are autistic. One high functioning, the other severe, he lived in the hospital as she was growing up and the other high functioning. Another classmate who is one of 12 children. She got pregnanat while at university, kept the baby and the father wants nothing to do with her.

A friend of mine and I were talking about the latest economic / capitalist tome which emphaisezed how only the strong will be able to survive.

Oh really, now, and who is going to take care of those who cannot take of themselves. 

These days, money has become just as key to survival as oxygen has.

I am curious as to how it's all going to end up.


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## NextTimeAround

kokonatsu said:


> from my perspective, it definitely depends on the temperament of the child! I've been a nanny for a couple different families, and there was one boy in one family who always drove me batty. his sister was great, but he could tear down the house. I constantly talked with my husband about it, sometimes even during the tantrum, or my sister, just to get out of the situation..* "complaining" could clear my head, give me new ideas, know that someone else was on my side and was there for me. *
> 
> i'm also highly sensitive, so in another family i nannied for, i noticed that just the crying baby made me upset!
> 
> this has made me wonder lately about personalities in families. kids can be very different from their parents.. but can also be very similar, and no one knows what kind of kid they've got until that kid shows their personality, so there's no guarantee i'm going to have a quiet, gentle kid. I guess my wonder is a nature vs. nurture kind of wonder.
> 
> anyway, some people are born to be parents and don't find it such a problem, others perhaps never loved it as much or had such a strong desire, or it turned out different from what they thought it would have been like, and that parent's personality needs someone to talk to, even in the middle of the tantrum, so they don't get sucked into the child's crazy.
> 
> (note: NOT saying that parents who don't complain love their kids more! that's ridiculous.)


I'm glad you said that. Most men don't agree and even if they complain from time to time, they put down others who do as well.

At the moment, I am in the midst of dealing with a meetup organiser. OK, she and I had a disagreement and she put me out of her meetup group. but now she has sent me a very offensive message through meetup's messaging system.

I showed it to my husband, to have someone to talk with and to decide how to sort it out.

Oh dear, the puffed chest and "no one has removed me from a meetup group" routine. Oh really now, we did a search through his e-mail account, only to find that he has been removed from 3 meetup groups as well (one for non attendance, so that's pretty benign). But he has been doing meetup for less time than I have, and with fewer meetup groups.

And the puffed chest deflated pretty quickly after that.


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## JasonKaven

In this aspect, the man has the different feeling and ways with the woman. They often choose to be silent, and tend to more rational and calm.


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## *LittleDeer*

JasonKaven said:


> In this aspect, the man has the different feeling and ways with the woman. They often choose to be silent, and tend to more rational and calm.


What made you come to the conclusion that men are more rational and calm?


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## Wolf1974

*LittleDeer* said:


> What made you come to the conclusion that men are more rational and calm?


Lifelong experience to indicate same is what lead me to that conclusion 

Course some women are very much logical and rational thinkers and some men are emotional messes. I have known exceptions to both.

But as a generalized sphere of both genders I would say that women are more emotional and men less


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## Shoto1984

Some random thoughts. It does seem that women are more into sharing their problems. If they are sharing those problems with negative people it just makes for a stew of negativity. If they are sharing those problems with positive people it makes for support and encouragement. (This seems to be where you find husbands and wives who praise each other and realize how valuable an intact and love filled home is.) If they don't have female friends to share with then the problems get aimed at the husband who is staring bug eyed at the phone thinking "I have my own stuff to deal with.....you deal with yours and I'll deal with mine...I can't not be working so you can vent"


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## Marduk

I've never even seen this dichotomy before.

The guys I know -- and me -- complain just as much as the women about the stresses of parenting and marriage.

It's just that the guys do it in guy ways.

Example: "man, I need a beer. Kids gave me a headache." Buddy shrugs, pops open a beer, hands it to him. "Can you believe that game yesterday?"

Situation over.

Just because things happen shorter, or resolve quicker, doesn't mean that they don't happen, or that dudes don't support each other when it does.


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## Marduk

*LittleDeer* said:


> What made you come to the conclusion that men are more rational and calm?


Personally I don't think it's a more or less difference, it's more of a difference in what 'rational' and 'calm' means.

And it doesn't even have to be divided neccessarily on gender lines, either.

I find my wife quite irrational. Mostly because I don't understand her internal state of conditions that would lead her to (what she feels is) a rational conclusion.


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## Pooh Bear

Wolf1974 said:


> Lifelong experience to indicate same is what lead me to that conclusion
> 
> Course some women are very much logical and rational thinkers and some men are emotional messes. I have known exceptions to both.
> 
> But as a generalized sphere of both genders I would say that women are more emotional and men less


I think men have been trained well not to have emotions besides anger.


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## Doorman

Dad's don't complain, because there's always a harder and more difficult chore on the list....


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## vellocet

Pooh Bear said:


> I think men have been trained well not to have emotions besides anger.


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## Anonymous07

kokonatsu said:


> from my perspective, it definitely *depends on the temperament of the child*!
> 
> This has made me wonder lately about personalities in families. kids can be very different from their parents.. but can also be very similar, and no one knows what kind of kid they've got until that kid shows their personality, so there's no guarantee i'm going to have a quiet, gentle kid. I guess my wonder is a nature vs. nurture kind of wonder.


I've been a nanny for a few different kids before and I have never struggled with any of them like I have struggled with my son. My son's personality is nothing like mine or my husband's, as we are very easy going/laid back/quiet and our son is very high energy/head strong/loud. He is almost always testing me by pushing boundaries and wants to be so independent at not even 2 years of age. I absolutely adore my son, but he's really pushed me to think of better ways of parenting him. Many times I have to talk it through with someone so I can #1 vent and #2 bounce ideas off of them to see if they think that will work better. 

I know other parents who have really easy going kids and life is just different for them. There were 2 girls I nannied that were so easy, even at the same age my son is now, and I never once complained to anyone about them. They are just different kids. 

I also find that my son acts differently with me vs my husband vs others. He gives me the hardest time because I am with him the most, he sometimes gives my husband a hard time, and is typically well behaved with others(grandparents, relatives, etc.). My husband doesn't really complain because he doesn't deal with the same behaviors and he also handles that 'stress' differently(would go running instead of talking it out). There is nothing wrong with either way of handling stress.


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## *LittleDeer*

Wolf1974 said:


> Lifelong experience to indicate same is what lead me to that conclusion
> 
> Course some women are very much logical and rational thinkers and some men are emotional messes. I have known exceptions to both.
> 
> But as a generalized sphere of both genders I would say that women are more emotional and men less


Who says emotions aren't rational, and that having less emotions is more rational? 

Having empathy and understanding through emotion can give a very clear picture and allow for greater clarification. That to me is pretty logical. 

Saying women aren't logical and rational because they may not think the same way as you, is just a way to put women down and feel like you are superior.


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## *LittleDeer*

Besides many times I have been told by men that they have been taught to hide their feelings and emotions. Surely this would hinder rational thinking? 

Personally though I don't see men or women as more rational or even emotional. Emotions can be things like anger or cause avoidance etc. I have read plenty of studies that avoidance leads to destructive behaviours. 


We all gave a myriad of emotions and ways of thinking and dealing with things. Some are healthier then others.


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## Cletus

*LittleDeer* said:


> Besides many times I have been told by men that they have been taught to hide their feelings and emotions. Surely this would hinder rational thinking?


Depends on whether or not emotions aid or hinder rational thinking. I don't know the answer to that, it's not self-evident, so "surely" is not the word I would use. 

Being emotional and having the ability to interpret the emotions of others is not the same thing.


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## Runs like Dog

This sounds like the punchline to a Chris Rock joke.

"I take care of my kids...."


"***** that's job you're supposed to take care of your kids !"


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## Wolf1974

*LittleDeer* said:


> Who says emotions aren't rational, and that having less emotions is more rational?
> 
> Having empathy and understanding through emotion can give a very clear picture and allow for greater clarification. That to me is pretty logical.
> 
> Saying women aren't logical and rational because they may not think the same way as you, is just a way to put women down and feel like you are superior.


If you say so. Wasn't what I was saying but your going go spin it however you want. Have at it


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## Wolf1974

Pooh Bear said:


> I think men have been trained well not to have emotions besides anger.


Really to silly for words. Men have and do show emotions. The point just being ignored for the most part.


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## Cletus

Pooh Bear said:


> I think men have been trained well not to have emotions besides anger.


It makes me sad to hear you think that.


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## Wolf1974

intheory said:


> "Why don't dads complain about parenthood.."
> 
> My biological father bailed. Never heard from him.
> 
> My stepfather drank, used drugs and worked more than one job as often as possible.
> 
> So *my experience* is that instead of complaining; they physically remove themselves from their children, or self-medicate with alcohol and/or illegal substances.
> 
> And I know my situation was not typical (I'm guessing). Just explaining that it does exist.



My x chose this route too and left me and our two girls. Unfortunate that she quickly came back. I almost had her on abandonment. Non gender issue .......some people can't be good parents. I would never leave my kids


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## Bobby5000

Maria wrote, 

"Men have to learn that women will complain to them and not want advice. They just want to ***** and that helps them feel heard and get past the problem. Women have to learn that constant talk about an issue with a man can make it seem like she isn't listening and doesn't respect him." 

My wife had a problem and I wanted to listen. So I let her talk, I was non-judgmental, I was patient, and it took a lot of self--discipline but I didn't say anything just let her patiently vent. After a while though, I wanted to check the clock and realized- nly 40 seconds had gone by. Listening to a woman complain and not wanting you to provide constructive suggestions is like being in the dentist's chair without novocaine, even a short time sure seems really, really long.


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## LongWalk

BostonBruins32 said:


> Good perspective.
> 
> I leave my house at 430am and get home around 6pm from work. Daughter in Preschool full days 3 days per week, wife not working. When I get home from work at 6pm, I make dinner about half the time, and I do about 95% of the parenting until bedtime at 830 for the little one. On the weekends, I do about 85% of the parenting and cook most of the meals and fill in with misc household chores. I mention this routine for perspective.
> 
> What I think your reflection misses, Littledeer, is that there are stresses from other sources than just the trials of a sahm or part time working mom etc. My job carries heavy stresses. I am also the sole income earner, so I need to be really good at my job and keeep moving forward AND when there is a co$tly crisis at home, I need to worry about resolving it. I also do my own laundry, cook about 65% of the meals, take care of everything outside the house, and some small chores inside the house. I also have to be the best dad I can be for every minute that my daughter is awake.
> 
> Moms feel tired and stressed? I feel ya, I have a busy schedule too. But look at it this way: my daughter will only be little for so long and I KNEW having a child would not be a cake walk with perfect behavior. Complaining wont get anything done.


Why do you stay married to this exploitative woman?


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## RandomDude

BostonBruins32 said:


> Interesting read looking into why don't dads complain about parenthood like moms do. Not a blanket assumption for all, but could resonate with some of you.
> 
> Those men that the author talked to in her practice certainly remind me of myself.
> 
> Why don’t dads complain about parenthood like moms do? - The Washington Post


In my case, when I was married, I had two ladies in the house, one was demanding, the other was sweet. The demanding one gave me headaches, the other one made me laugh, made me feel young, made me feel loved, important, appreciated, valued...

Obviously I can't complain about the latter when the former was in the same house!



Zouz said:


> because women call it chore , while we call it responsibility.


Lol, nice!


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## Lone Shadow

It seems that most women/mothers I know tend to think that the children are the number 1 priority. No exceptions. I don't know if that's most women, but it's most that I know. Speaking just for myself, this isn't the healthiest way to handle things. 

I am my number 1 priority. My children and my relationship (if/when I have a relationship) are second on my list. By taking care of myself and my own physical/mental health first, I feel that I am able to be a better father to my children. If I don't get the time to just go out once in a while, I never have a chance to recharge. How long before I'm at the ragged edge? How well can a person parent when they're at that edge? And how present can they be for the children?

Sometimes all that's needed is stopping by Friday's on my way home from work once or twice a month for a drink or 2. Honestly though, a day or (dare I dream?) even a weekend away would be a blessing. My ex's situation doesn't lend itself to co-parenting. I'm so tired most days that even though I want to go out, I just don't have the energy.

Last Wednesday, I forgot to send my son off to school with his lunch. Lunch was packed and ready, but his lunchbox never made it from the counter to his backpack. 

Tonight is day 4 of a 7 day work week. Wednesday night through Tuesday night, with Friday and Saturday nights being 12hr shifts. So far this week, I have been averaging something between 2 and 3 hours of sleep per day. 

My mom is coming to visit on the 20th, staying until the evening of the 22nd. I have a class that weekend, Sat/Sun are both going to be 10 hours of class time. My mom told me tonight that as long as I let her know when dinner and bedtimes are, she's ok with me disappearing for the weekend. I might have to take her up on that, and crash at a buddy's place for Friday/Saturday nights. Time to recharge my batteries.


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## tom67

Lone Shadow said:


> It seems that most women/mothers I know tend to think that the children are the number 1 priority. No exceptions. I don't know if that's most women, but it's most that I know. Speaking just for myself, this isn't the healthiest way to handle things.
> 
> I am my number 1 priority. My children and my relationship (if/when I have a relationship) are second on my list. By taking care of myself and my own physical/mental health first, I feel that I am able to be a better father to my children. If I don't get the time to just go out once in a while, I never have a chance to recharge. How long before I'm at the ragged edge? How well can a person parent when they're at that edge? And how present can they be for the children?
> 
> Sometimes all that's needed is stopping by Friday's on my way home from work once or twice a month for a drink or 2. Honestly though, a day or (dare I dream?) even a weekend away would be a blessing. My ex's situation doesn't lend itself to co-parenting. I'm so tired most days that even though I want to go out, I just don't have the energy.
> 
> Last Wednesday, I forgot to send my son off to school with his lunch. Lunch was packed and ready, but his lunchbox never made it from the counter to his backpack.
> 
> Tonight is day 4 of a 7 day work week. Wednesday night through Tuesday night, with Friday and Saturday nights being 12hr shifts. So far this week, I have been averaging something between 2 and 3 hours of sleep per day.
> 
> My mom is coming to visit on the 20th, staying until the evening of the 22nd. I have a class that weekend, Sat/Sun are both going to be 10 hours of class time. My mom told me tonight that as long as I let her know when dinner and bedtimes are, she's ok with me disappearing for the weekend. I might have to take her up on that, and crash at a buddy's place for Friday/Saturday nights. Time to recharge my batteries.


:iagree:
Recharge your batteries.
Hoping you will find that someone.
Do not marry again.


----------



## Lone Shadow

Not without a solid prenup anyway.


----------



## tom67

Lone Shadow said:


> Not without a solid prenup anyway.


Eh I may get banned...
Accidentally on purpose run over your father allegedly of course.
Anyway.


----------



## Lone Shadow

Wrong thread. If you keep things like that to my thread, I'm sure nothing will happen.


----------



## Lone Shadow

intheory said:


> I don't know your situation, Lone. But why must you work 7 days a week; some of those 12hr shifts?
> 
> You will damage your health at some point.
> 
> Sleeping 2-3 hours a night will do the same thing. You may also end up falling asleep at the wheel of your car.
> 
> If you are trying to better yourself through education, I commend you. But those 2 - 10 hr. marathons are time that you could rest and regenerate.
> 
> Working your hours isn't compatible with going to school.
> 
> Why not be a little "poorer" and have a better quality of life?
> 
> I realize I don't know all the particulars. But you are burning the candle at both ends.
> 
> Take care.


The class next weekend is a 1 time thing. The 7 day week is part of my normal work rotation. My normal work rotation is: 5 on, 2 off // 7 on, 2 off // 7 on, 5 off. The weekend shifts on my 7 day weeks are 12hr shifts.

I don't deliberately get so little sleep. I love my sleep. Sleep is just a very elusive mistress. 

All this to say - I don't complain about being a single dad. I just try to make time out of nothing, so that I can have a couple hours just to myself every so often.


----------



## moco82

Runs like Dog said:


> This sounds like the punchline to a Chris Rock joke.
> 
> "I take care of my kids...."
> 
> 
> "***** that's job you're supposed to take care of your kids !"


It was: "If a kid can't read, that's momma's fault. Now, if a kid can't read 'cause there is no lights in the house, that's daddy's fault". For the most recent generation of parents, both the lights and the reading are daddy's fault.

I think the same monologue compares men's and women's complaining.


----------



## moco82

Bobby5000 said:


> My wife had a problem and I wanted to listen. So I let her talk, I was non-judgmental, I was patient, and it took a lot of self--discipline but I didn't say anything just let her patiently vent. After a while though, I wanted to check the clock and realized- nly 40 seconds had gone by.


Amen. Complaining to me about something I can't improve is torture. After 45 seconds I start to wonder whether I'm being implicitly blamed for the problem. Perhaps someone needs to patent a complaint timer.


----------



## ChargingCharlie

BostonBruins32 said:


> These type of articles are always a generalized view, not specific for each person. So its not every woman and its not every man.
> 
> The article was sent to me from a friend and really sunk in for me. I can't even recall the last time I sent a text or call or voiced frustration with how my child was behaving(and yes she gives me 45 min tantrums etc). Yet it is now 9am, and i have 3 texts on how bad my daughter is behaving from my wife. She has probably been up about 1.5 hours and is now in preschool until 3pm. But that 1.5 hours was too much.
> 
> I wouldnt dream of complaining about my daughter to my wife, as it would give the appearance that I can't handle it and that could be costly.


:iagree:Exactly. My wife has gotten better, but she will still let the kids get to her, while I never complain about them to her. A couple of years ago, I could have them all weekend and say all was well (even if it wasn't), while she'd have them for an hour and I'd be in trouble when I got home because they were acting up and I'm not there to help. 

And your last paragraph is spot on as well - my thinking exactly.


----------



## Forest

Could it be the general trend to allow kids to become more the center of the household is the real culprit? When I was a kid, making a bunch of noise, complaining, whining, disobeying, or doing anything bad in front of an adult was an express ticket to a belt across the butt.

Today, any form or corporal punishment is widely frowned upon. Heck, punishment in general is.

Absent the threat of a whipping, I can see why kids would push mom's harder than dads. Its natural, dads are larger, and usually more harsh.

So, mom's get pushed, yet feel they shouldn't respond with the good ole belt. It builds on itself. Obviously, some kids are worse than others. My older brother needing a whipping every day to stay in line, but I really didn't. We didn't push my mom around much, she had the belt, and would use it.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Why? Because I went mini golfing with two of my kids last night in the rain and it was awesome. That's why.


----------



## RandomDude

Meh, I whacked my old man with the pole when he tried to hit me with it lol

Ex just slaps our daughter's hand when she really misbehaves, and hell its enough, it shames her but doesn't hurt her. It's rare even, we're blessed to have a very good kid. For me, I just give my daughter the look or change my tone and she behaves.


----------



## Forest

Ever had one of your own kids talk back to you? My daughter never once did this to either of us, but she's just not the type.

As a kid, my next older brother and I would infrequently make this mistake with my mom. It always ended badly.

I cannot fathom it these days when I see kids talk back to parents, and publicly. That mistake I would have never made.


----------



## ChargingCharlie

BostonBruins32 said:


> These type of articles are always a generalized view, not specific for each person. So its not every woman and its not every man.
> 
> The article was sent to me from a friend and really sunk in for me. I can't even recall the last time I sent a text or call or voiced frustration with how my child was behaving(and yes she gives me 45 min tantrums etc). Yet it is now 9am, and i have 3 texts on how bad my daughter is behaving from my wife. She has probably been up about 1.5 hours and is now in preschool until 3pm. But that 1.5 hours was too much.
> 
> I wouldnt dream of complaining about my daughter to my wife, as it would give the appearance that I can't handle it and that could be costly.


BB, is your wife also the type that will critique and nitpick everything you do with your daughter (i.e., not picking the correct clothes, not preparing her food correctly, etc) and tell you you're not doing it right? But, you can have her for a week and all is well, while she has her for an hour and is stressed out beyond belief and mad at you because you're not home to help? Yet, you're the idiot and she's the only one that knows what they're doing. I can feed the kids and have the dishes cleaned up right after they eat, while Mommy will leave the dirty dishes and cups laying around while she's sitting on the couch playing on her phone, but it's because she's tired and the kids are playing. I can take the kids out to eat and all is well, while if she goes, she's on Defcon 1 with the stress level and *****ing at me because I didn't cut up the kids' food correctly.


----------



## Anonymous07

intheory said:


> God, how many times have you been at the grocery store, or some other public place and just wished and wished that the parents of some wailing, screaming brat would just apply a swift, firm spank to the behind. The rest of us have to listen to that racket too.
> 
> Hand slapping, or getting your behind spanked (with clothes on) can sometimes be the only way to discipline children who are not old enough to employ logic or reason; and whose behavior has to be modified.
> 
> It's a loaded topic.


Sorry, that's been my kid lately. :rofl: His new thing is to throw tantrums at the store because he's frustrated. 

It really depends heavily on the child. I could spank my son for having a temper tantrum at the store, but it honestly does nothing. He needs a cool down moment to collect himself, then stops and moves on. It takes him some time. No spanking, hand slapping, etc would do any good.He doesn't respond well to that, so we've had to find other ways to handle him. He'll be 2 this summer, so he doesn't understand reason/logic as to why he can't do this or that. 

I think as with many other things, there is more awareness today of people struggling with this or that. Before/back in the day, no one said anything about the struggles of being a parent. Now, we do talk about it. Instead of feeling alone, women can commiserate instead of being silent. Many may look at it as a bad thing, to openly complain, but I see it as a good thing. I'd rather hear it than have more people suffer in silence.


----------



## Anonymous07

intheory said:


> Anon07
> 
> I'm not talking about a minor squall. I'm talking like 15 MINUTES or *more* of a toddler child just screaming and crying like someone cut his/her leg off. You can hear it aisles away in the store.
> 
> Wow, if your kiddo is putting you (and the people around you) through that kind of drill; that is rough.
> 
> I always wonder, "maybe they need to take the kid outside, or just go home; the kid might have something _wrong_ with him/her."
> 
> Just wondering, are you ever afraid to wrist-slap your kids or paddle their butt, because you think someone will "turn you in"  to CPS for doing so? I think a lot of parents are afraid to use mild physical discipline in case they get branded as a "child-beater".
> 
> Awareness and openness about the difficulties of raising kids is *great*. Not everyone is a good parent. There's probably a decent percentage of people that don't like parenthood or _don't even like their kids_. Major social taboo; we are all supposed to be pretending that that isn't the case.
> 
> But if we did admit that parenting can drive some folks "off a cliff", emotionally speaking, we could probably avoid a lot of misery; extreme examples like Andrea Yates come to mind.


Am I afraid to spank my son, no, but I also know it doesn't work for him. It would only make him more upset, which doesn't help the situation. I let him cool down and then redirect him/distract him to something else. His tantrums are about 2 to 3 minutes long as he wants to do something I won't allow him to(run away from me free in the store - not happening). Of course that doesn't stop the stares from people, but not much I can do for his age. It's normal for him to act that way. If he throws a major fit, we always just leave because I won't allow him to act that way. There are some strong willed/high needs toddlers and children who will really test their parents. My cousin's daughter comes to mind where she will scream as if she's dying because she wants something, just to see what she can get away with. I know my cousin has had a really rough time with her. 

The bratty ones are tough to watch, but I don't know that they're the majority. My neice and nephew can be absolute brats because my SIL lets them do basically anything they want. They rarely get told no, so they take advantage big time. Any time they go to the store, they get something they want. Ugh. It doesn't fly with me and they know it, so they never bug me, but boy do they go crazy with their mom and other relatives. 

Parenting in general is tough. My husband and I went to switch phone carriers the other day and our son was so exhausting to have their with us. He has so much energy and hates to stay still, so being there for over half an hour was tough. When we got in the car after it was done, we both let out a sigh of relief that it was over with and we could go home to let him run around freely. I've noticed when I start to complain more, it's because I haven't had a break from my son in a while. I'm the main care taker and it's tiring. I need some time to myself to recharge and don't get it very often at all. The days when sometimes I just wish I could go to the bathroom alone. :rofl:


----------



## Jadiel

Didn't read the article, but I believe fathers dont complain as much because we're not allowed to. At least in my social circle. All I see on facebook is women whining and whining about how awful being pregnant is or having kids is. Everyone comes to form a knitting circle and they hold hands and sing about how it will get better and what a brave mom you are!

In the odd case I ever see a dad whine, he's immediately jumped upon for being irresponsible, ungrateful, and needs to grow up. And you should've worn a condom if you didn't think you can handle kids, Mister!!1!!11111!!11111!11

I never, ever see this conversation happen:

Female: Ugh....pregnancy problems are so awful!

Others: Well you should've made him wear a condom missy!


----------



## NobodySpecial

OH NO! Not a spanking thread. Must Step Away Now. 

I do think that Mr or Mrs Center of the Universe trend is not good. You see it with my kids' classmates though they don't tend to hang out with those kids.

That said, spanking is not a terribly effective form of true learning IMO. I could so go there. But to spare you darling people, I won't. Anyone who still has littles who are looking for techniques or resources to help you kids become allies rather than obstacles can PM me. Be forewarned, it involves learning new things. And (people hate this) reading some books to see what you think about the topics therein.

To the topic at hand, I am on a team of nearly exclusively men. The men out complain the 2 women by a lot!


----------



## lifeistooshort

Moms often feel a lot of pressure, usually courtesy of other moms, to be perfect in every little way. That ups the pressure. I'm not sure dads feel this need for everything to be perfect.....moms should adopt this attitude.


----------



## Wolf1974

lifeistooshort said:


> Moms often feel a lot of pressure, usually courtesy of other moms, to be perfect in every little way. That ups the pressure. I'm not sure dads feel this need for everything to be perfect.....moms should adopt this attitude.


Ironically the only person I ever felt pressure from in parenting was my x wife. So sometimes the wives and mothers become the pressure point for dad's. Thankfully not all women are like this


----------



## Anon1111

intheory said:


> And that's just it, isn't it. Now it seems like *all* corporal discipline is seen as "whipping". So no-one [or next to no-one] applies it anymore.
> 
> God, how many times have you been at the grocery store, or some other public place and just wished and wished that the parents of some wailing, screaming brat would just apply a swift, firm spank to the behind. The rest of us have to listen to that racket too.
> 
> I have been clouted on the side of the head, picked up and thrown and yanked about by my hair. All by my mother when I was about 4 years old. That is wrong. That is not what I am talking about.
> 
> Hand slapping, or getting your behind spanked (with clothes on) can sometimes be the only way to discipline children who are not old enough to employ logic or reason; and whose behavior has to be modified.
> 
> It's a loaded topic.


I get where you are coming from and used to think exactly the same way before I had kids who will throw fits and would not stop even if you beat them into the ground.

Since having this experience, I err on the side of assuming there is some legitimate reason for the outburts rather than a failure of parenting. You can't always tell from looking at people from afar who is disabled, etc.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Anon1111 said:


> I get where you are coming from and used to think exactly the same way before I had kids who will throw fits and would not stop even if you beat them into the ground.
> 
> Since having this experience, I err on the side of assuming there is some legitimate reason for the outburts rather than a failure of parenting. You can't always tell from looking at people from afar who is disabled, etc.


I have never understood hitting and meltdowns. Seems like a dumb idea to me. You're pissed? Well now you are REALLY pissed! That does not alleviate the need for good discipline techniques and understanding. But most people equate discipline with escalating response to perceived misbehavior.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Anon1111 said:


> I get where you are coming from and used to think exactly the same way before I had kids who will throw fits and would not stop even if you beat them into the ground.
> 
> Since having this experience, I err on the side of assuming there is some legitimate reason for the outburts rather than a failure of parenting. You can't always tell from looking at people from afar who is disabled, etc.



I have seen periods of 2 of nieces (different families) that made it difficult for their parents. one 14 and the other 24 right now. Interestingly enough, they now have very good manners and are doing very well for their age. The 24 year old will be starting a very coveted training programme.

So the question I ask, how do you raise children to be successful in whatever chosen field?


----------



## sh987

lifeistooshort said:


> Moms often feel a lot of pressure, usually courtesy of other moms, to be perfect in every little way. That ups the pressure.


My wife has talked about this. Last year, there was a class party for our daughter, and at the last minute, she told us that they're all supposed to bring some sort of treat. My wife was pretty put out, because it didn't give her time to prepare something homemade. I thought "Okaaaaaaay. What's the big deal?" 

Her: Oh, you don't know what those Miss-Thing Super-Moms are like there, having made the picture perfect treat they found on pinterest, judging any lady that brings something from the grocery store.



> I'm not sure dads feel this need for everything to be perfect.....moms should adopt this attitude.


For some folks, if a father even slightly does his job as a parent, some people are ready to pin a medal on him, as though he did the impossible. I always felt a certain level of condescension that can come from some people, if a man gets the kids out with their hair done right and in clean clothes. 

---

But, to answer the original question put by the title of the thread? I've not complained about being a parent. For my part, it doesn't seem dignified, as if we're the only people that have dealt with kids losing their brain cells and acting like fools.

When women do it, I don't usually get very worked up about it, though. Maybe I'm playing into stereotypes, but women seem to get a lot of relief from sharing experiences with each other, and it seems like a way to vent.


----------



## SamuraiJack

Because men are taught from birth not to complain.
"Nobody likes a whiner."
"Suck it up, buttercup!"
"Less talk, more action."
"Big Boys dont Cry."


These are all phrases that we hear as a mantra growing up and we have obviously internalized it.
I was lucky in that my culture references stated that men and woman were equals and men were expected to be as involved with the kids as women.

Another thing that give sme reason not to ***** is that I am PROUD to be a Dad. 
Im damn good at it. 
Im fearless. My first kid I took shopping all the time to give my wife a break. Same with the second one. 
I suffered through Teletubbies, Barney and and Spongebob.

I was consistent and I let my gals take risks which has paid off tremendously for them.

I dont ***** about parenting and kids because I dont feel the need to. I love my kids and I will do whatever I can to allow them a better life.
Being the best parent I can be is the way to do just that.

and to be honest...I knew I was going to be a dad...and EVERYTHING that comes with it...why complain about something you willingly signed up for?


----------



## NobodySpecial

IMO there are some people who are in the Kids Are SO HAAAARD camp. There are 2 people I can think of at work like this, one male one female. Yah it is hard because you treat your kids like little princesses and princes, little dictators. Then there are people who figure it out.


----------



## NextTimeAround

NobodySpecial said:


> IMO there are some people who are in the Kids Are SO HAAAARD camp. There are 2 people I can think of at work like this, one male one female. Yah it is hard because you treat your kids like little princesses and princes, little dictators. Then there are people who figure it out.


I'm sure for them it's a badge of honor to be able to complain.


----------



## batsociety

IMO if you don't think you have anything to complain about, you ain't paying enough attention. 

But I really think it boils down to your personality and how you were raised. Women are allowed to vent, whereas men have always been taught that any emotional expression is a sign of weakness, and it's kind of hard to shake a behavior that's been like, ingrained in your gender for hundreds of years. Personally, I need to complain (it's more of an expression of anxiety than genuine frustration, always been terrified of messing my kids up beyond repair). I'd go insane if I couldn't talk sh*t out and get validation from other parents that everything is normal.


----------



## john117

NextTimeAround said:


> So the question I ask, how do you raise children to be successful in whatever chosen field?



Like anything else. You teach them to stay focused, help them, keep an eye on them... But above all you make sure they are cut out for what they want to do.


----------



## PieceOfSky

NobodySpecial said:


> OH NO! Not a spanking thread. Must Step Away Now.


I've heard the spanking threads in the SIM section are a lot more interesting. Just sayin'.


----------



## ChargingCharlie

BetrayedDad said:


> Good question...
> 
> I don't think it's gender specific. However, my Ex used to complain nonstop about how hard it was to take care of the kids and I had no idea and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
> 
> I do everything now she used to do and more often than she does. Is it a lot of work? Sure. Was it nearly as challenging as she made it out to be? Absolutely not.
> 
> Some people (even self proclaimed, super moms) are just lazy whiners. Funny how being so "busy" with the kids she found plenty of time to cheat on me though.


Mine always talks about how hard it is, etc to the nth degree. However, every time I come home, she's on her phone playing games while the kids are watching TV - if they've eaten, the dishes are strewn about everywhere. Then I hear about how she can't get anything done, she can't get to the dishes because of the kids etc. God forbid I'm not home and she has to give a bath. 

Meanwhile, when I have the kids, we play together, and when we're finished eating, I get the dishes cleaned up and we play some more, then we take a bath and go to bed - meanwhile Daddy gets all of the dirty clothes downstairs and all is well. 

Even though I'm the idiot who can't cut the kids food correctly or dress them correctly, I still have fun and you never hear me complain about parenting. She, on the other hand, is SuperMom who knows all and has an idiot husband, but all you hear about is how tired she is and how hard she has it. 

And the point in the article about the sex going away is spot on - our sex life is zero and she's driven away any desire that I had for her with her actions, complaining, etc.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

I don't think men self impose the same level of responsibility as women when it comes to parenting.

For example, when our daughter was 3 and potty trained, she still had accidents daily. I read books and talked to friends and took her to see specialists. My H just wanted to punish her, which every expert said NOT to do. He didn't do any research; just went with his gut instinct which was wrong.

It's the same with any issue our kids have, and they each have some. If I had died in childbirth, I think my kids would be getting little help because my H fought so hard the diagnoses of each of our kids. 

In short, we carry a heavier burden in making those decisions and often in executing them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PieceOfSky

SurpriseMyself said:


> I don't think men self impose the same level of responsibility as women when it comes to parenting.
> 
> For example, when our daughter was 3 and potty trained, she still had accidents daily. I read books and talked to friends and took her to see specialists. My H just wanted to punish her, which every expert said NOT to do. He didn't do any research; just went with his gut instinct which was wrong.
> 
> It's the same with any issue our kids have, and they each have some. If I had died in childbirth, I think my kids would be getting little help because my H fought so hard the diagnoses of each of our kids.
> 
> In short, we carry a heavier burden in making those decisions and often in executing them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Your husband is different from many many men. Of the men I know enough to make a guess about, not a one would have handled the potty training issue the same way as yours did. Not even close.


ETA and responding to the thread in general and not the post quoted above:

I have known dad's that have complained. I have also seen dad's shirk responsibility, and so don't really have much motivation to complain -- they simply haven't been bothered enough and that was by their own choice. (Maybe that's the phenomenon you refer too, SurpriseMyself?) 

Likewise, I have known mothers that I have never seemed to show any sort of dissatisfaction with being a mom. (One in particular I used to know generally had a positive and self-sufficient attitude, way before having kids.)

I'm sure many women and men have seen their spouses complain too much and bring too little to their relationship and family. It's a hard thing to experience, no matter what the sexes. We seldom see even a glimpse of what other spouses are like. I wouldn't be surprised if husbands tend to share more with their male peers about problematic relationships, and over time our view of the better sex gets unjustifiably warped. I wouldn't be surprised wives do the same -- sharing complaints, but not the good.

I cannot remember the last time I heard a husband IRL share "You know, my wife did something wonderful and without complaint last night, and I just wanted to share that with you, PieceOfSky." Folks tend to just discuss the negatives, and maybe that colors our perspective.

If so, that's regrettable for many reasons, including it would tend to keep folks trapped in bad situations, or lead to being less selective when searching for a mate. If one doesn't believe there are good ones out there, then one might settle for the less than good. 

When the time comes, I plan to tell my kids: "There are billions of potential partners on this planet. There may be some "like that", but millions and millions of more who are not. Find someone that you can be happy with. Don't settle for less that that. Don't even consider it."


----------



## john117

SurpriseMyself said:


> I don't think men self impose the same level of responsibility as women when it comes to parenting.



Some of us beg to differ 

I am very busy planning my older girl's launch into self sustainment. This includes helping DD23 select furniture from IKEA, a cat, a new laptop, finding an apartment, and the subtle points of picking up U-verse versus Comcast. I'm not doing all of the above, which is easy - I'm simply distilling 55 years of knowledge to help DD make her own choices. 

Her mom's contribution? A Kitchenaid mixer 

The cat is the toughest choice so far.


----------



## NobodySpecial

SurpriseMyself said:


> I don't think men self impose the same level of responsibility as women when it comes to parenting.


This is not a gender thing IMO. I know a lot of flaky, wing it sort of Moms and responsible thoughtful Dads.


----------



## Anonymous07

lifeistooshort said:


> Moms often feel a lot of pressure, usually courtesy of other moms, to be perfect in every little way. That ups the pressure. I'm not sure dads feel this need for everything to be perfect.....moms should adopt this attitude.


I try to adopt that attitude that not everything needs to be perfect, but I also get judged a whole lot more than my husband in regards to parenting, which is frustrating. 



sh987 said:


> My wife has talked about this. Last year, there was a class party for our daughter, and at the last minute, she told us that they're all supposed to bring some sort of treat. My wife was pretty put out, because it didn't give her time to prepare something homemade. I thought "Okaaaaaaay. What's the big deal?"
> 
> Her: Oh, you don't know what those Miss-Thing Super-Moms are like there, having made the picture perfect treat they found on pinterest, judging any lady that brings something from the grocery store.


Women can be extremely harsh on each other. I've gotten so many dirty looks and been talked about for certain decisions I've made. It's really sad. 



sh987 said:


> For some folks, if a father even slightly does his job as a parent, some people are ready to pin a medal on him, as though he did the impossible. I always felt a certain level of condescension that can come from some people, if a man gets the kids out with their hair done right and in clean clothes.


My husband is a great dad and takes care of our son often, but the reactions he get vs what I get are definitely different. For example: My husband took our son outside during church because he was having a meltdown(over tired) and you could see people smiling. A woman behind us a few rows said to the lady next to her how sweet it was that he was such a great dad and taking care of his little boy. When I did the same thing weeks before, taking our son outside to give him a breather to calm down, I got dirty looks as if I should better be able to control him, why did I have him there if he was tired/upset, etc. He hadn't napped well that day and there wasn't much I could do. I was much more judged on my parenting than anything my husband does. He gets smiles, I get dirty looks. My husband has noticed it, too. 



sh987 said:


> When women do it, I don't usually get very worked up about it, though. Maybe I'm playing into stereotypes, but women seem to get a lot of relief from sharing experiences with each other, and it seems like a way to vent.


:iagree: It is a way to vent. I joined a 'support group' for high needs toddlers because my son was running me crazy. When I read an article by dr sears on high needs kids, it just described my son. It's been so tiring and being able to find others who can relate and vent with, has made things easier.


----------



## BrutalHonesty

Men don't complain about stuff as much as women in most things. In fact, other than sex, i'm left scratching my head about something that men complain more than women other than that one topic. 

That is, of course, statistically. With the due exceptions women complain about almost everything (including other women) more than men. 

I think the early boyhood socialization takes care of that.


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## SurpriseMyself

My H handles a lot when it comes to logistics. He will schedule when the kids wake, when they need to be upstairs getting dressed, when they need to be asleep. He just doesn't know how to handle them as people. He is a task person. Parenting is both scheduling our days and handling our little people. He's strong in the first and lacking in the other. And I dare say the tougher part in parenting is how to handle the humans, not how to create schedules.

And I have to agree that women are the ones judged if their child misbehaves. Men are great dad's just by participating. Maybe that will change over time, but that is how it is today. Especially in the south, where I am. Traditional gender roles are strong here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NobodySpecial

Women are judged because they allow themselves to be judged. Stop caring. The judgement goes away.


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## ChargingCharlie

My wife sometimes makes me feel guilty if I have to work late or on weekends (I'm a partner in a small business, so that can involve a lot of work). In her mind, as a quasi-public employee that works a set schedule and gets GroundHog day off, the fact that I don't just go in at 10 and leave at 3 is a foreign concept at times. She'll get upset that I'm not home with her when she has the kids. Me, on the other hand, loves it when it's just the kids and me, as it's much easier and less stressful.


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## SurpriseMyself

NobodySpecial said:


> Women are judged because they allow themselves to be judged. Stop caring. The judgement goes away.


No it doesn't. You just have to learn to avoid the judgmental moms, and boy are there plenty of them. It starts with whether you are going to give birth naturally versus epidural. Breast feed or bottle. Baby wise or no? Gymboree or target clothes for the kids? Coach bag at the plays are or knock off from TJ max. 

It never ends! No husband ever cared about these things, but women decide who is a worthy mom based on this and hundreds of other little things. When I let my kid dress himself, it says what kind of mom I am. If a dad does and the kid goes on a play date wearing mismatched rainbow bright shorts that are 2 sizes too small, well isn't that cute! He's a dad and he tried.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wolf1974

SurpriseMyself said:


> No it doesn't. You just have to learn to avoid the judgmental moms, and boy are there plenty of them. It starts with whether you are going to give birth naturally versus epidural. Breast feed or bottle. Baby wise or no? Gymboree or target clothes for the kids? Coach bag at the plays are or knock off from TJ max.
> 
> It never ends! No husband ever cared about these things, but women decide who is a worthy mom based on this and hundreds of other little things. When I let my kid dress himself, it says what kind of mom I am. If a dad does and the kid goes on a play date wearing mismatched rainbow bright shorts that are 2 sizes too small, well isn't that cute! He's a dad and he tried.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe where you live. Not the experience I have had with dressing my kids


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## SurpriseMyself

Wolf1974 said:


> Maybe where you live. Not the experience I have had with dressing my kids


Who purchased the clothes for your kids? You or your wife?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117

SurpriseMyself said:


> Who purchased the clothes for your kids? You or your wife?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



My family rarely buys clothes without consulting me - but then I'm a design professional (consumer gadgets) who actually follows fashion, styles, and the like.


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## SurpriseMyself

john117 said:


> My family rarely buys clothes without consulting me - but then I'm a design professional (consumer gadgets) who actually follows fashion, styles, and the like.


I think I can count on one hand the total articles of clothing, shoes, coats, underwear, socks, etc., that my H has bought for the kids over their collective 16 years of life.


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## john117

SurpriseMyself said:


> I think I can count on one hand the total articles of clothing, shoes, coats, underwear, socks, etc., that my H has bought for the kids over their collective 16 years of life.



As I said, the benefit of color theory 

Left to her own devices my kids will do fine but not spectacular. You'd be surprised what you can find at the Nordstrom Rack. Then I can help them put together a balanced outfit and it's all good. With my feedback they go from good enough to wow. 

Took us a while to get them to wear more European stuff, mostly H&M and United Colors of Benetton.


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## SurpriseMyself

Not me. Hand me downs, t-shirts from target, etc. I won't spend money on kids clothes unless it's for a special occasion, and even then I'm thrifty. 

But back to the real issue, which is dad's not complaining about parenting. I think dad's do complain, just not as much as women. My H complains about the kids not putting away their shoes, not putting away toys, etc. He says these things because he is looking to me to come up with a plan to fix what he doesn't like.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wolf1974

SurpriseMyself said:


> Who purchased the clothes for your kids? You or your wife?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When married we both did

Now single I do

At each house they have thier own wardrobe. Why?


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## SurpriseMyself

I guess I am just continually surprised that there are dad's out there who will do things like buy their kids clothes even if they are married. I haven't asked but I would be bet that none of my friend's husbands buy their kids clothes. Thinking it's a southern thing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wolf1974

SurpriseMyself said:


> I guess I am just continually surprised that there are dad's out there who will do things like buy their kids clothes even if they are married. I haven't asked but I would be bet that none of my friend's husbands buy their kids clothes. Thinking it's a southern thing?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Likely. That's why I said it might be common where you live. It isn't where I live at all

Since the birth of both my daughters thier isn't a single thing thier mother has done for them that I haven't done and done as often as her. The only exception that I can think of is my x wife can't cook and takes them to McDonald's way more often than I ever would. As a matter of fact because she takes them about once a week I never have to step foot in that place which is just fine with me lol


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## john117

I am not exaggerating if i say that in the rare occasion my wife took my kids to a dentist or piano class they always were floored to find out I am married. By my calculations maybe once a year for piano Kumon etc activities thru HS. No involvement whatsoever picking colleges and majors etc (or grad school ).

Single parent with limited room service....


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## NobodySpecial

My husband takes DD shopping when she needs occasion clothes. He ferries the kids to activities. Pretty much the only thing I go to is the meets, shows, events of that sort. But I work outside of the home and he doesn't for the moment. He has always been a very interactive Dad.

That said, I am the disciplinarian.


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## Anonymous07

NobodySpecial said:


> Women are judged because they allow themselves to be judged. Stop caring. The judgement goes away.





SurpriseMyself said:


> No it doesn't. You just have to learn to avoid the judgmental moms, and boy are there plenty of them. It starts with whether you are going to give birth naturally versus epidural. Breast feed or bottle. Baby wise or no? Gymboree or target clothes for the kids? Coach bag at the plays are or knock off from TJ max.
> 
> It never ends! No husband ever cared about these things, but women decide who is a worthy mom based on this and hundreds of other little things. When I let my kid dress himself, it says what kind of mom I am. If a dad does and the kid goes on a play date wearing mismatched rainbow bright shorts that are 2 sizes too small, well isn't that cute! He's a dad and he tried.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:

The judgement doesn't go away just because you stop caring. I don't really care if others don't like my parenting choices, but I'm not blind to what happens around me. I can still see the dirty looks and hear people say things. I don't hang out with those moms, but they are all over and it can be hard to miss if you are aware of your surroundings. 

I live in Southern California and have the same experience as SurpriseMyself. If the dad tries, he's looked at as an awesome dad, no matter how the child acts, is dressed, etc. Just like my previous example, my husband was praised and I got nasty looks. My husband would dress our son in a striped shirt and plaid pants, but would get comments about how cute our son is. If I dressed him that way, people would look at me weird. I did it before, letting our son dress himself and had a number of strange looks from people. Many people expect a lot more from the mom.


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## NobodySpecial

Anonymous07 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> The judgement doesn't go away just because you stop caring.


Maybe stop noticing? Then it is for all intents and purposes not there.



> I don't really care if others don't like my parenting choices, but I'm not blind to what happens around me.


I actually think I am! Which I am pretty happy about. 

My point had more to do with allowing other people's judgement affect your behavior or confidence in your choices which is way more of a female trait.


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## PieceOfSky

SurpriseMyself said:


> I guess I am just continually surprised that there are dad's out there who will do things like buy their kids clothes even if they are married. I haven't asked but I would be bet that none of my friend's husbands buy their kids clothes. Thinking it's a southern thing?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, then, another data point fwiw. 

<vent>
Took my youngest to Target a few days ago to buy her some new school clothes. This is the second such trip in the last couple of months. There have been a couple of trips elsewhere during that time, too. The earlier trips were fraught with some body image anxiety brought on by some bullying towards my daughter at school and on the bus. 

Regarding the bullying, my wife and I both talked to my youngest over the last few months, but I am the one who was tasked with contacting the teacher to discuss, and ultimately found a counselor for my youngest to see (been wanting both our kids to see someone anyways). I'm the one that made the appointments, took time off work to take them to four different appointments so far, was the only one to show up for the two different "intake appointments" with the parents (my wife and I); my wife was invited; did not expect her to show up. I suppose, relevant to this thread, I never once complained about any of it to my wife. Honestly, I was a bit p!ssed when my wife started dumping her anxiety on me ("So, what did you tell the therapist the reason was for the kids being seen?" -- I'm guessing she was fearing I had said some negative things about her. "I just don't want them to grow up thinking there is something wrong with them." -- I'm guessing fearing SHE might think there is something wrong with them, and it is partly her fault.)

..... Not saying it to give myself a pat on the back, I don't think. It's just what I do -- If my kids need something, I want to take care of it. I don't always do a good job of it, and I don't always have the energy to put into it and sometimes procrastinate or worse. But, the desire and awareness is always there, and I often rise to the occasion.
</vent>

I would never suspect this is a "man thing" or a "woman thing". I never ever heard my mother complain about raising us kids, and she did whatever had to be done. My father is extremely helpful to all kinds of folks, seemingly eager to be helpful and expecting nothing in return. My father-in-law, on the other hand, twenty years ago seemed to live the life of a stereo-typical (?) 1950's father who didn't do much but relax and get catered to after his 9-to-5 --- although, his wife worked full-time too. He seems to have gotten more helpful and softer generally since retiring a few years ago.

My sample size is too small to come to any statistics-based conclusions. But, I'm not really interested in the question. I live with specific people, and whether or not their behavior and my behavior is appropriate given the specific circumstances we have is what matters.

Btw, if I can make it official, the section labeled "vent" above is a bit of a complaint. So, the question in the title of the thread is no longer valid


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## PieceOfSky

NobodySpecial said:


> Maybe stop noticing? Then it is for all intents and purposes not there.
> 
> 
> 
> I actually think I am! Which I am pretty happy about.
> 
> My point had more to do with allowing other people's judgement affect your behavior or confidence in your choices which is way more of a female trait.



Not being concerned about what others think is great way to live. I used to be horribly concerned with what other people thought. I probably could have met the DSM-xx criteria for Social Anxiety Disorder. In the past two decades, and especially in recent years, I've shed that greatly -- exactly how or why, I'm not sure. Two years of IC has helped, both with respect to what folks think of me at work as well as what my wife thinks of me. 

Reminds me of a title of a book by Richard Feynman, What do *you* care what other people think?


He was a Nobel Prize-winning physicist, and seemed to walk to the beat of his own drum more than most people I suppose. The quote which gave rise to the title wasn't from him -- but, rather, from his wife.


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## Anonymous07

NobodySpecial said:


> Maybe stop noticing? Then it is for all intents and purposes not there.
> 
> 
> 
> I actually think I am! Which I am pretty happy about.
> 
> My point had more to do with allowing other people's judgement affect your behavior or confidence in your choices which is way more of a female trait.


I think you should care what some people think. Not saying it should change your actions, but that it's good to be aware of the thoughts of others/how they view the world. 

We recently moved to a new area and I've been trying to make new mom friends. If I just didn't give a bleep about what anyone else thought, I don't know if I'd make a whole lot of friends that way. Noticing how people reacted help me weed through who I wanted to be around and who I wanted to avoid. There were many more that I wanted to avoid than those few I wanted to be friends with. I didn't want to be "friends" with someone who was only a "friend" to my face, but judged me other times. It took a while to find those women and was isolating for a while until that happened.


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## PieceOfSky

Anonymous07,



That makes sense. I choose my friends and the degree of involvement with them and others based upon many things, including how compatible their attitudes and beliefs are. Some folks, like family, I would never turn my back on, but I think naturally some of my extended family relationships are at times more distant than if we saw certain things similarly.



Someone that judges others in ways I don't respect is kept figuratively/emotionally at a distance, whenever possible.



At the end of the day, though, to the extent I am able, I rest better if I can let the people who disapprove of me or look down on me be far from my thoughts.


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## PieceOfSky

One of my favorite things is this anecdote from the late Harry Chapin about his grandfather, where he discusses the peace that comes from limiting the impact other people's thoughts and agendas have on our own.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbpoUWO3kA8


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