# HELP! When both sides have cheated...



## JeepWrangler (Aug 19, 2012)

Hello! First time posting about anything like this but I am lost in what I should do and looking to get some outside opinions…

First my wife and I have been together for 8 years and married for 3. We have lived together for 5 years. I am 31 and she is 33. I found out a few months ago that she had cheated soon after we were married with someone that she works with. She states that it was only one time and there was no emotional attachment between the two when I confronted her about it. There were e-mail’s exchanged between the two for a while. In the past it has been brought to my attention that she has cheated before, including hooking up with a good friend of mine despite her telling me “that’s all it was.” She denies any of the other people I confronted her about. 

On the flip side, I am no angel as well as I have had a few slip ups while we were together, including one person while we were married. 

She is constantly telling me that people make mistakes and trying to stay together but I think that we have shown so much infidelity that it is time for both of us to move on and figure this out. Once I laid out the divorce card she is trying everything in her power to keep me around. We have essentially separated in a sense but living under the same roof because neither of us can make a decision on what to do?

Any thoughts? :scratchhead:


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

Get the book Surviving An Affair by Dr Harley.

Read it together. Learn how to have boundaries such as no opposite sex friends, no girls nights out, etc. Learn how to meet each other's needs.

Learn how to repair the broken trust.

You both don't know how to be good spouses. Just moving to the both of your's next victims.

Yes next victims. Both don't know how to have a healthy relationship. Only thing that a D will do is allow the both of you to "F" up your next marriage because you don't know how to have and protect a healthy relationship.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Does she know of your affairs?


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## frozen (Mar 5, 2012)

You both will need to do so much to build/rebuild trust in the marriage. Did she ever have your trust & vice versa? Did you both come into the marriage with many past relationships and sexual experiences? If so, how did those end?


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

TheRoad is right!

The two of you need to grow up, figure out if you love each other and if you do finally commit yourselves to your marriage and each other.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Agree with Warlock, you need to confess your past infidelity first.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

IMHO, you are actually well suited for each other and I don't mean that in a bad or judgemental way.

You both have experience as a BS and a WS; this gives each of you an uncommon understanding of what each of you are going through, something that 99% of the people on this site have no insight into. What you haven't done is figured out *why* each of you cheats.

As for confessing your A; I'm not so sure about this. Many experts say that disclosing an A can be the worst thing for a marriage.

However, if she does know about your A, then that is awesome because it means that you two can be honest with each other.

How about you stop making this an exercise of, "Should we stay together or separate?" and make it a game of "why do we cheat?"

Both of you think about that and then come together and talk about it. You start off by telling her one reason why you cheat. Discuss it; can it be fixed? Then she tells you one. Discuss it; can it be fixed? Then you tell her one, etc, etc.

Create rules for the game, like having bull**** clauses. And the following responses are not allowed:

I was drunk - okay, that was your excuse, why did you get drunk in the first place to use as an excuse to do it?
I was lonely - bull**** - why were you lonely?

Seriously, until you two figure this out, you are both going to keep doing this in your next relationships. You've already made mistakes in this one and are on equal footing. Why not learn from this one while you can? Hell, you might even find that by talking together and working together you remove those reasons to cheat.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Been there, done that. Still together, 15+ years later.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Oh yeah... and get marriage counseling.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

... and have sex.


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## Jonesey (Jul 11, 2011)

Im thinking your story you just wrote. What has been transpiring between you two, sense pretty much from 
day one .Perhaps something might be 
trying to tell you both the solution.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

TCx said:


> ... and have sex.


But not at the same time as the MC, of course!


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## JeepWrangler (Aug 19, 2012)

@theroad – I don’t agree with no opposite sex friends? How is that beneficial when you limit who your friends are? Everyone I know has members of the opposite sex as friends. And every guy/girl needs a guy/girl night out mainly just as a break from the other half. Yes a marriage is a large part of someone’s life but not necessarily ALL of their life. 

@warlock – Yes she knows of the ones pre-marriage, not the one during the marriage. 

I think the trust has been broken for a long time. When I proposed I think I did it for the wrong reason because I thought it would fix our issues together. The wedding was almost cancelled because of an A I had. There has been long periods of time where there was no physical intimacy (>6 months) and there would be times where I saw condoms missing from the “stash” I had. Everyone is saying that this is workable and that I should make this work bit when is this enough? If two people are cheating over and over isin’t that a bad sign?

@TCx – tried marriage counseling. All of the suggestions that were made quickly failed weeks out of the sessions.


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## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

You both must figure out why you have cheated on each other in order to have any reconciliation. Or this will keep happening.

Who told you that your W cheated with your friend? Is it someone you trust?


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> But not at the same time as the MC, of course!


There are different types of MC.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

JeepWrangler said:


> @theroad – I don’t agree with no opposite sex friends? How is that beneficial when you limit who your friends are? Everyone I know has members of the opposite sex as friends. And every guy/girl needs a guy/girl night out mainly just as a break from the other half. Yes a marriage is a large part of someone’s life but not necessarily ALL of their life.


I agree.



JeepWrangler said:


> When I proposed I think I did it for the wrong reason because I thought it would fix our issues together.


You think you proposed for the wrong reason? Come on. Own it. Did you or didn't you?



JeepWrangler said:


> There has been long periods of time where there was no physical intimacy (>6 months)


Why?



JeepWrangler said:


> If two people are cheating over and over isin’t that a bad sign?


It's a sign of immaturity.



JeepWrangler said:


> @TCx – tried marriage counseling. All of the suggestions that were made quickly failed weeks out of the sessions.


Why? Because neither of you put enough effort into it? If not, why not?


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

JeepWrangler said:


> Everyone is saying that this is workable and that I should make this work bit when is this enough?


I'm going to single this one out. Who gives a flying **** what everyone is saying? This is your life, not theirs.

What do you want? What is holding you in this marriage? What everyone says? Love? Guilt? 

What does she want? Why can't she make a decision either?

Are the two of you just scared of hurting each other? Do you love each other? Can you not imagine yourselves being with anyone else? Have you imagined yourselves as old folks together, sitting on the porch?


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Have you considered a real separation, where you aren't seeing each other every day. That close proximity is probably driving you nuts. You will be a source of pain for each other if you're both struggling like this.

Perhaps if you remove each other as a source of pain it will help you sort through your emotions without the other constantly being around.

My separation from my W has done me wonders in terms of giving me clarity and it's only been a month. Perhaps this would work for you two?


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## JeepWrangler (Aug 19, 2012)

@TCx – I tried that – she keeps telling me that she does not feel that this would work. It is truly awkward in the household right now. A lot of awkward hi/byes and the such. That was my first suggestion


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Why not just formally agree to continue the marriage as you have? Namely, it's an *Open Marriage*. Just lay out your terms and conditions and have at it.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Why doesn't she think it would work? Did she give a reason? 

Could it be that she wants out but does't want to be the one to decide that you have 'failed' at marriage. Or is she sensing that you want out? Or do you think she's having an A now?

And the awkwardness is happening because you aren't talking. The only result of not talking is D. Start talking now or you will be divorced by default. And while I don't know you, I wonder if a D under those circumstances might get messy.

Divorces that end with people empathizing with each other usually go more smoothly than if they are at odds with each other.


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## JeepWrangler (Aug 19, 2012)

Her reasoning is that it simply would not solve anything. She wants to sit down and talk and every talk we have keeps going back to the same place – previous infidelities between us. So I end up shutting down because all we do is get frustrated with each other. Because of what we both did prior to getting married is why I think I think I proposed for the wrong reason. I felt bad for what I did and because we were together so long I thought that was the next appropriate step to make her happy. I just wanted space to make a decision without any emption involved but I seem to get “cornered” to talk every few days because she said she does not like being in limbo.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

JeepWrangler said:


> and every talk we have keeps going back to the same place – previous infidelities between us. So I end up shutting down because all we do is get frustrated with each other.


You sound like my W.



JeepWrangler said:


> I just wanted space to make a decision without any emption involved but I seem to get “cornered” to talk every few days because she said she does not like being in limbo.


I can sympathize. Limbo sucks.

Here's the rub. If you think that you married her for the wrong reason then you did. And until you change that perception, you will view your M as a mistake and no amount of agonizing over it will change that.

You have to take care of yourself in this process. You have to do what you need to in order to think.

What is motivating you right now? 

Love? Do you love her? Do you find her attractive? 

Fear? Of being alone? Of failure? Of admitting to her that you married her for the wrong reason?

Guilt: Of not wanting to live up to your promise to have and to hold?


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## Jonesey (Jul 11, 2011)

TCx said:


> There are different types of MC.


:lol::rofl::rofl: So i have heard


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

JeepWrangler said:


> Her reasoning is that it simply would not solve anything.


If you guys getting away from each other for a while wont solve anything, what does she propose that you do? What you two are doing right now isn't working.

If you've been through MC and you're both stuck where you are, can I please ask if you have any faith in the marriage? If so, what is that hope that you have? So what is keeping you there?

If she has no alternative suggestion for a separation, then, IMHO, she might be trying to tell you something without actually trying to tell you something.


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## JeepWrangler (Aug 19, 2012)

I have never been alone. I have always had a girlfriend so yes there is a fear of being alone. The fear of the “unknown.” I love her but this roller coaster ride is difficult to handle emotionally. I do not know why we have gone months without any physical intimacy. All I know is whatever MC offers that please let me know! LOL 

I do find her attractive but right now the only thing motivating me is being out of the house. I just don’t want to be there anymore because I just want to be alone with my thoughts. I am just trying to take care of my emotional well being because the stress level is through the roof because I don’t know what my future holds and I don’t like that.


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## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

You can't let fear of D control you. It seems to me at this point, fear is the only reason you two are not going anywhere. You are scared that if you continue R, that you will both cheat again. Well...all I know is, you control yourself, you cannot control your W. You can try with all your might, but it will end up bad. 

You are also scared of being alone...aren't we all? It's lonely, it's hard work, it's painful. But when you think about it, aren't you already alone? You and your W are not intimate with each other, you don't have meaningful conversations, you both question whether you will ever cheat or not again. So isn't that already loneliness?

You have to have a plan of action before you can move forward. Otherwise, you are at a standstill, and a bad standstill at that. It's do or die time.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

She doesn't want you to leave. She gets to have no-consequence affairs & an H.

I think she loves you more than you love her & you were not really sure about marriage...& still not sure......but that is why you are here right?

Do you have children?


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## JeepWrangler (Aug 19, 2012)

Emerald said:


> She doesn't want you to leave. She gets to have no-consequence affairs & an H.
> 
> I think she loves you more than you love her & you were not really sure about marriage...& still not sure......but that is why you are here right?
> 
> Do you have children?


No children...


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## rigcol (Jul 24, 2012)

somethingelse said:


> You have to have a plan of action before you can move forward. Otherwise, you are at a standstill, and a bad standstill at that. It's do or die time.


I think counseling is an essential first step ... Good luck, brother.

OlllllO


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

JeepWrangler said:


> I just don’t want to be there anymore because I just want to be alone with my thoughts. I am just trying to take care of my emotional well being because the stress level is through the roof because I don’t know what my future holds and I don’t like that.


Is she threatening action against you if you take time away?


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## JeepWrangler (Aug 19, 2012)

No but I cannot leave home because of employment.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Employment or finances? You have any friends that you can stay with for a couple of weeks? Any hotel loyalty points you can cash in? Some holidays that you can cash in so you can take a week away? Some ground rules that you can instigate in your house?

Can you not just say to her, "Hon, this is really stupid, we're so bloody uncomfortable around each other right now and it's childish. I want nothing more than to talk to you but I'm really sorry; I need the time to think. Please don't think that I'm trying to get away from *you*; I just need time to think on my own. I'm sorry but I just need this for me."


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

JeepWrangler said:


> Yes a marriage is a large part of someone’s life but not necessarily ALL of their life.


This kind of think might be the issue at hand here. I have a sense that the both of you feel the same way..sad very sad!


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

the guy said:


> This kind of think might be the issue at hand here. I have a sense that the both of you feel the same way..sad very sad!


Do you really think that your marriage is 100% of what life is about? I suspect that anyone that truly tries to live up to this ideal is a candidate for divorce and/or suicide.

edit - although I guess that depends on what your views are on the purpose of marriage.


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## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

JeepWrangler said:


> Her reasoning is that it simply would not solve anything. She wants to sit down and talk and every talk we have keeps going back to the same place – previous infidelities between us. So I end up shutting down because all we do is get frustrated with each other. Because of what we both did prior to getting married is why I think I think I proposed for the wrong reason. I felt bad for what I did and because we were together so long I thought that was the next appropriate step to make her happy. I just wanted space to make a decision without any emption involved but I seem to get “cornered” to talk every few days because she said she does not like being in limbo.


If you are not willing to talk about the infidelities, then you are not willing to get past them. You both have to come to an agreement, either, to stop cheating on each other, and start building a foundation of trust. 

Or, if you both cannot make that commitment, then you have to leave (whether she wants you to or not). You can't stay in a R where there's is unhealthy communication or cheating. You both will be completely miserable the rest of your lives. You will sleep in separate beds, barely talk..you'll be room mates basically.


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## frozen (Mar 5, 2012)

I mostly stay off TAM now because reading posts can trigger too much pain. I am almosone year in recovery and my marriage is at a place I would have bet $1mill against before DDay. 

I subscribed to this thread a few months ago, and looking at my subscribed topics I am troubled how this thread just died. It seems like the author's wife was trapped in the belief that past infidelities were a firm impediment to future happiness. If JeepWrangler is still around and still wants to process his pain, develop healthier notions of men and women, and learn to have a truly intimate relationship, I hope he comes back and gives an update. 

Don't surround yourself with people that will tell you what you want to hear! Challenge yourself by choosing to hear the people that have survived infidelity; we don't have to repeat the errors of our past but it is inevitable unless we truly understand and acknowledge what in the past we avoided.


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