# Dont know what to do...suggestions, please!



## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

Anyone that knows my story knows that Ive been in supposed R for almost 3 years now after dealing with 2-3 years of my WH PA, with one woman.

Everytime I think things are getting better there is a trigger and it brings me right back to the pit again. Recently H and I were talking about powerball and buying tickets. I told him that would be his way out if he was just staying here for financial reasons. I havent felt like he really loves me the way I love him. He does little things but doesnt so the heavy lifting you guys talk about. He seemed to be offended and said that he wasnt going anywhere and that it sounded like I was looking for a way out. I just laughed and said "whatever"

This morning when he was getting ready to leave for work I saw a piece of paper on the floor near where he was sitting (he puts his shoes by the door when he comes in and in the morning he puts them on near the door where he left them). I bent to pick it up and it was a piece of paper towel the size of my open hand and it had two sets of numbers on it (6 numbers so I figure Powerball numbers). I showed it to him since he saw me pick it up and look at it and he said he didnt know what it was but looked like powerball numbers. End of story I thought.

He left and I looked at the numbers better. The writing was neat, I would assume a woman wrote it and I knew it wasnt my daughters writing (I asked her anyway and she said no). I thought it might have been dropped by someone coming in my house but I asked them and they said no. When I looked at the numbers more closely it made me sick.

Here were the numbers 
37 45 8 13 16 27
37 45 8 15 18 34

37 is my H age, 45 is the OW age, 8, 13 and 16 are our children's ages and Im not sure about the 27

The 8 could also be the difference in their age (8 years)

On the second line the 15 and 18 I believe are her two younger children's ages, not sure about the 34.

I dont know that this is the OW's writing or that there is any signifigance to the numbers at all. I thought that he might have picked it up on his shoe somewhere and brought it in but he carried his shoes in (he works in boots all day and takes them off and changes at the end of the day. Sometimes he doesnt put his shoes on and just drives barefoot). 

I am just lost on what to do. If there is no relation at all and I bring it up its just going to cause an argument and he's going to say "its never going to get better" or "here we go again" like he always does. I have been in tears all morning just so frustrated about this. I dont want him here if doesnt want to be here. Ive told him a million times I'd rather be alone then with someone that doesnt love me. I guess Im just afraid of making things worse by saying something if there is a possibility he knows nothing about the paper/numbers.

My thinking was maybe he met up with her, they talked about buying tickets and came up with numbers and she left her paper in the truck and it got brought in accidently. I dont think he bought any tickets, he never has cash on him.

I dont know whether to confront or keep my mouth shut. I just want the truth thats all and if he's still cheating I just want him to leave so I can start to heal. He wont admit to anything, he never does.


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## underwater2010 (Jun 27, 2012)

I vote for keep it quit, but start keeping your eyes and ears open. It could be nothing or it could be something. But remember that we are not as niave as we were before. 

To many people (inluding myself) confront we they find the small stuff. If we had been just a little more patient we could have found the whole picture before we confronted them.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

so heres a few questions then since you dont want to confront and you wont get the truth anyway.

1. Does he have a cell and do you have spyware on it?
2. Do you know OW number?
3. why are you tolerating it if he's not doing the heavy lifting AND you dont feel loved?


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

I agree it doesn't sound like enough to confront, and if you did he would totally shift the focus on to you and your "insecurity". It doesn't sound as if he appreciates the pain he's caused, and for that I'm truly sorry.
Is there anyway you can track his cell phone and go into evidence gathering mode.
And let me add, this is a horrible way to feel at the start of the holidays, keep strong gir.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

I think you should wait to confront and try to gather more data. Like others have mentioned, do you have any spyware on his phone or on the PC or anything?


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> so heres a few questions then since you dont want to confront and you wont get the truth anyway.
> 
> 1. Does he have a cell and do you have spyware on it?
> 2. Do you know OW number?
> 3. why are you tolerating it if he's not doing the heavy lifting AND you dont feel loved?


He does have a cell but its provided by his work. I have no access to the records because of that. Its been a huge enabler in his PA.

I do have the OW's number. 

I tolerate it because I love him and because Im an idiot, I guess. He never has been overly affectionate or loving so I wonder if I just expect it more now since the A because I need the reassurance. Not everyone is the same and some people arent capable of doing it by the books. He hasnt been the same person since his father died unexpectedly several years ago and then a year ago his mother was diagnosed with Stage IV small cell lung cancer and died 5 mos later so it hasnt helped him. You can read my past posts and see he has issues!

We have been together since we were 16 and 18, he is all I have at this point, besides me kids and I guess I just hold on to hope that things will get better!


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> I think you should wait to confront and try to gather more data. Like others have mentioned, do you have any spyware on his phone or on the PC or anything?


He is never on the computer and if he is I always know where he has been, he doesnt cover his tracks well.

His phone is a work phone so I dont have access to it at all. I would pay someone that could pull the records if I just knew who.


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## travellover (Aug 6, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> I showed it to him since he saw me pick it up and look at it and he said he didnt know what it was but looked like powerball numbers. End of story I thought.
> 
> When I looked at the numbers more closely it made me sick.
> 
> ...


*I'm not sure why it is so difficult to get the truth. I still have very little of the story from my H. You are much further along in this process than I am and I don't know if I'll ever even get close to where you are. From your posts, I can tell that you really do care about this man and I feel your pain so deeply. The level of deceptiveness is what continues to drive me crazy. If he hadn't made the choices that he did, you would not be questioning everything. You have every right to be suspicious until his you are comfortable with the way he treats you or shows that he loves you in the way you need to be loved to continue the relationship.*

*I understand why you don't want to confront. I get the same way. Because you are supposed to be in R, he should not be getting offended if you ask him a question. He probably won't tell you anything even though you know that he's lying. My H has stunned me with the ridiculous lies that he tells me in a manner that is definitely convincing. If it will make YOU feel better, ask. If you already know that he'll lie and you'll still feel bad, it may not be worth it. It sounds like you already know that you will probably never trust him. You deserve to be with someone who you can.* Just my thoughts.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

LetDN,
I was with my STBXH since I was 16, although we didn't marry until our mid-20's. Now 27 years of marriage are over. If I had been willing to see how he really was and how he was treating his family, I would have ended it sooner. We are not a priority in his life. In his mind-he is the only one that matters. He is selfish and nonremorseful and neglectful. (Does any of this sound familiar?). I had hope he would see some of this, but now I know that will not happen.
Why do you think he is all you have? I sure don't. You are a great person who deserves to be really loved by someone. If you are sure he is the one, than you have your work cut out for you. Go into surveillance mode until you get the answers you need.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

travellover said:


> *I'm not sure why it is so difficult to get the truth. I still have very little of the story from my H. You are much further along in this process than I am and I don't know if I'll ever even get close to where you are. From your posts, I can tell that you really do care about this man and I feel your pain so deeply. The level of deceptiveness is what continues to drive me crazy. If he hadn't made the choices that he did, you would not be questioning everything. You have every right to be suspicious until his you are comfortable with the way he treats you or shows that he loves you in the way you need to be loved to continue the relationship.*
> 
> *I understand why you don't want to confront. I get the same way. Because you are supposed to be in R, he should not be getting offended if you ask him a question. He probably won't tell you anything even though you know that he's lying. My H has stunned me with the ridiculous lies that he tells me in a manner that is definitely convincing. If it will make YOU feel better, ask. If you already know that he'll lie and you'll still feel bad, it may not be worth it. It sounds like you already know that you will probably never trust him. You deserve to be with someone who you can.* Just my thoughts.


Thank you travel, I know that I deserve better. I really am a mess!

I dont know if Im coming or going sometimes. He has such a way or messing with my mind. Saying something that makes you think he cares and then saying or doing something that says he doesnt. Then when you say something about it he makes you feel like you're being ridiculous and making stuff up. Its a total mind f*ck!


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> LetDN,
> I was with my STBXH since I was 16, although we didn't marry until our mid-20's. Now 27 years of marriage are over. If I had been willing to see how he really was and how he was treating his family, I would have ended it sooner. We are not a priority in his life. In his mind-he is the only one that matters. He is selfish and nonremorseful and neglectful. (Does any of this sound familiar?). I had hope he would see some of this, but now I know that will not happen.
> Why do you think he is all you have? I sure don't. You are a great person who deserves to be really loved by someone. If you are sure he is the one, than you have your work cut out for you. Go into surveillance mode until you get the answers you need.


It sounds very familiar. I just cant wrap my brain around how someone that has been with you that long and is supposed to love you can be so cruel. Im sorry for what you have been through, its horrible!!


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

It doesn't seem coincidental and I can completely understand why it triggered you. BH would go nuclear on me if something like that popped up after my EA.

As for the work phone, does he get weird if you look at it? I work in fraud/financial investigations (yes, ironic) and had my IT folks remove the sensitive application access from my phone so BH could look at it without breaching any security protocols. Would he be willing to do that for you?

I'm really sorry this is going on. He really should be bending over backwards to make you feel more comfortable and secure in the relationship.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Here's the thing that troubles me about this whole thing. He says "I don't know what it is" when asked about the numbers even though he suggested that they are Powerball numbers.

So, the other day, Regret's car needed to be taken in to the shop cuz the check engine light came on. As I drove it there I saw a small piece of paper...sticky note paper folded up tightly. At a stop light I unfolded it. The note said "Call me" and had a phone number. I was furious. I wanted to get on my phone and call her so quick, but I didn't. I sat on it and stewed for about a half an hour til I got home.

I handed her the piece of paper and asked who and what it was about. She nodded slowly because she understood the pain it had caused me and she called our 10 year old son into the room and asked him what it was. He said it was from one of his friends in class and that he forgot where he put it.

See...she knew what the paper was but instead of trying to get me to believe her, she decided that it was best that I hear it from our son so I wouldn't have to wonder if she was lying about it. A few minutes later she looked at me and apologized for making me think such things all the time...always looking for that little slip up (which hasn't come). She hates that I am constantly on vigil. I do too. But she at least knows to explain everything as it comes up.

Point being...your husband is an a-hole, IMO. If after 3 f'ng years of "reconciliation" he doesn't get it...then I think you're way overdue to take care of yourself. Yeah...I know, I know...he's all you know and blah, blah, blah. Guess what? My ex wife (who cheated on me!) and I knew each other since I was 17. When she cheated I was 27, I gave her a 2nd chance. She screwed that up, literally, and I left when I was 29. SHE was the only family I had in Virginia. All the rest of my family lived back north. Every friend I had was because they were her friend first.

Was I scared to leave everything I knew? Yep. Damn straight I was. But I did because it's what I had to do for myself.

HE needs to get off his a$$ and start doing some work. I don't even believe he doesn't know what those Powerball numbers are from. He absolutely does. And they're exactly as you interpreted. She wanted him to see that she's still rolling the dice for him. And it makes him happy. That's why YOU don't get the affection you deserve.


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## Hope Springs Eternal (Oct 6, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> I tolerate it because I love him and because Im an idiot, I guess.


You are not an idiot. You are a concerned wife who is trying to reconcile your marriage. Don't be so hard on yourself!


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> Thank you travel, I know that I deserve better. I really am a mess!
> 
> I dont know if Im coming or going sometimes. He has such a way or messing with my mind. Saying something that makes you think he cares and then saying or doing something that says he doesnt. Then when you say something about it he makes you feel like you're being ridiculous and making stuff up. Its a total mind f*ck!


Its those mind fvcking games that drove me crazy for years. It totally drove my self esteem and confidence into the ground. I didn't trust my decisions, I couldn't make a decision. Everything I wanted or things I liked were shot down by his backhanded remarks. I just beat myself up all the time b/c he was beating me up all the time emotionally.

This is no way to live. Can you ever remember a time of when he DIDN'T treat you this way? And I mean really think about it and try to remember the very first conversations and interactions you have had with him. 

I know when I look back, I do see the man who pushed his opinions on me and didn't value my views. Conversations I remember thinking "hang on a second, buddy, I don't feel that way" but never able to stand up to him as when I did the backhanded compliments came...so I just would back down in defeat. 

They don't call it "crazy making" behavior for nothing....you are NOT crazy...you have every right to feel the way you do. 

Are you in IC?


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

TCSRedhead said:


> It doesn't seem coincidental and I can completely understand why it triggered you. BH would go nuclear on me if something like that popped up after my EA.
> 
> As for the work phone, does he get weird if you look at it? I work in fraud/financial investigations (yes, ironic) and had my IT folks remove the sensitive application access from my phone so BH could look at it without breaching any security protocols. Would he be willing to do that for you?
> 
> I'm really sorry this is going on. He really should be bending over backwards to make you feel more comfortable and secure in the relationship.


I dont touch his phone, dont even try. There is nothing on there that is sensitve so it shouldnt be a big deal if I do but I just dont want to. He knows Im always looking for something, he wouldnt be dumb enough to leave anything on his phone. The few times I have thought about picking it up and looking I got so sick to my stomach I talked myself out of it. Maybe Im scared of what I might find?!


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> Its those mind fvcking games that drove me crazy for years. It totally drove my self esteem and confidence into the ground. I didn't trust my decisions, I couldn't make a decision. Everything I wanted or things I liked were shot down by his backhanded remarks. I just beat myself up all the time b/c he was beating me up all the time emotionally.
> 
> This is no way to live. Can you ever remember a time of when he DIDN'T treat you this way? And I mean really think about it and try to remember the very first conversations and interactions you have had with him.
> 
> ...



Looking back, as you suggested, he hasnt changed much over the years, its just gotten worse as we have gotten older or maybe its just amplified because of the PA he had and the way I always analyze everything.

I am not in IC although I know I should be. In the last 6 mos my income has been cut in half so we are not financially able to put back for IC. I know I need it desperately and wish more then anything I had a way to pay for it before I lose my mind!

Thank you for your input, it means alot.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

I understand the "walking on eggshells" So is it fear of a confrontation with him, or fear of finding out something you don't want to know?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

27 and 34

February 7th and March 4th mean anything?


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

I feel for you - this is a rough situation. One that I could not live with nor would I want my BH to live with.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> Here's the thing that troubles me about this whole thing. He says "I don't know what it is" when asked about the numbers even though he suggested that they are Powerball numbers.
> 
> So, the other day, Regret's car needed to be taken in to the shop cuz the check engine light came on. As I drove it there I saw a small piece of paper...sticky note paper folded up tightly. At a stop light I unfolded it. The note said "Call me" and had a phone number. I was furious. I wanted to get on my phone and call her so quick, but I didn't. I sat on it and stewed for about a half an hour til I got home.
> 
> ...


Dig, you know sometimes I find myself getting jealous of the WH/WW's who help their BS's through this because they know they caused it. My H has never really helped me. He doesnt want to talk about it. I think sometimes its because he feels guilty but others I think are just because he doesnt care. Back in MC he was called a "conflict avoider" and he will do just about anything he can to avoid dealing with anything that involves feelings or emotions.

I made a mistake... when he took the paper he said "I dont know where it came from, it looks like powerball numbers" I was so upset typing my original post that I couldnt remember what he said exactly until I calmed down.

I know everything you are saying is true, thats what makes it so hard to hear! Thank you!


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> 27 and 34
> 
> February 7th and March 4th mean anything?


Not to me, but I see where it could be something between them.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

2/7 first day they met or starting texting, 3/4 day they consumated?


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> I understand the "walking on eggshells" So is it fear of a confrontation with him, or fear of finding out something you don't want to know?


I told myself a long time ago that if I ever found solid proof that it was happening again I would be gone. Hard as it might be! The problem is that I have had little suspicions the last three years but it was not solid proof and it could have just been me being parnoid at times. 

My issue with confrontation is that he always has such a way of explaining stuff away that I feel like Im paraoid and he is innocent (in the current situation) and I feel like it just takes away any progress we have made. Every time I confront him on something or get pissed about something and he drags it out of me he always says something like "here we go again", or "its never going to end" so it makes me feel like Im making things worse when I only want them to get better. Thats why I avoid confrontation but I wouldnt say that I do it to the extent that he just walks over me. Most of the time I cant keep my mouth shut and have to say something or it eats me up.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> 2/7 first day they met or starting texting, 3/4 day they consumated?


It could be. I dont know when it actually started for them. They started working together in May of 05 or 06 and I didnt find out about them until Jan of 07 and he said he it had been going on for about 6 mos at that time.


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## thesunwillcomeout (Jun 25, 2012)

LetDown, 

I remember (when was it?) reading your first thread and feeling so bad for what your husband was putting you through. Cake eating for sure, and intimidation whenever you needed reassurance. And you carrying the lion's share of the load at home, with the kids, with everything. The way you felt about yourself in light of his treatment of you was just so wrong. It's sad to me to see his attitude and the way he's behaving hasn't changed. I don't believe there are a lot of "accidents" that happen in life. Your finding that piece of paper, as distressing as it is, may just be a clue that you need to start thinking about moving the ball forward to protect yourself and your children. I couldn't agree more with those who've said his saying "idk what those numbers are." and then mentioning powerball. Of course they are, and you are with it and figured out the significance of most of them. It seems obvious, no? You're not crazy. It is so incredibly hurtful that those we love have the ability and use that ability to lie and betray us. But who you are as a person, who you are on the inside is NOT DEFINED by him. Don't let him rob you of doing what you need to build up yourself. So you have his number. You're not going to change him and make him love you the way you would like. He is blameshifting and being shifty in tandem. I agree, don't confront with it -- what good will it do? But put that right there in your fuel tank to start thinking about your next steps. Please, please go out and do something nice for yourself, even if it's a walk in the sunshine.

hugs.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

LD - I always admire your posts for their insight and compassion & am hoping that you can turn some of that on yourself.

This doesn't look like a trigger, i.e., something that reminds you of a painful event. It actually looks very much like it could be a sign that your H is in contact with the OW.

It takes tremendous strength to break free of the influence of someone you love, but who doesn't quite give it back and abuses your trust. You know that he will talk you around on this & will probably get angry or exasperated. Put your thinking cap on & figure out a way to see if he is still seeing her. You deserve to know the truth.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

thesunwillcomeout said:


> LetDown,
> 
> I remember (when was it?) reading your first thread and feeling so bad for what your husband was putting you through. Cake eating for sure, and intimidation whenever you needed reassurance. And you carrying the lion's share of the load at home, with the kids, with everything. The way you felt about yourself in light of his treatment of you was just so wrong. It's sad to me to see his attitude and the way he's behaving hasn't changed. I don't believe there are a lot of "accidents" that happen in life. Your finding that piece of paper, as distressing as it is, may just be a clue that you need to start thinking about moving the ball forward to protect yourself and your children. I couldn't agree more with those who've said his saying "idk what those numbers are." and then mentioning powerball. Of course they are, and you are with it and figured out the significance of most of them. It seems obvious, no? You're not crazy. It is so incredibly hurtful that those we love have the ability and use that ability to lie and betray us. But who you are as a person, who you are on the inside is NOT DEFINED by him. Don't let him rob you of doing what you need to build up yourself. So you have his number. You're not going to change him and make him love you the way you would like. He is blameshifting and being shifty in tandem. I agree, don't confront with it -- what good will it do? But put that right there in your fuel tank to start thinking about your next steps. Please, please go out and do something nice for yourself, even if it's a walk in the sunshine.
> 
> hugs.


Sun, thank you so much for your words. You made me bawl but I appreciate them! I dont know how people put on a happy face and pretend to not be upset or hurt. Thats why its always so hard for me to not say anything. It affects my whole demeanor and he knows when something is wrong with me and will keep asking me til I spill the beans. 

Part of me wants to call him and tell him too effing bad he and the skank didnt come up with the winning numbers so that he leave this miserable place and go be with her in her happy world.

Thing is...he lived with her twice. Once for 4 mos then came home and then again for 3 mos. He obviously knows the grass isnt greener on the other side. He told me that I kicked him out and he had no place to go at the time.....HA!! WHATEVER!


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> LD - I always admire your posts for their insight and compassion & am hoping that you can turn some of that on yourself.
> 
> This doesn't look like a trigger, i.e., something that reminds you of a painful event. It actually looks very much like it could be a sign that your H is in contact with the OW.
> 
> It takes tremendous strength to break free of the influence of someone you love, but who doesn't quite give it back and abuses your trust. You know that he will talk you around on this & will probably get angry or exasperated. Put your thinking cap on & figure out a way to see if he is still seeing her. You deserve to know the truth.


Alte Dame, thank you, ironically I feel the same way about your posts! 

Its always black and white when you're not in it, isnt it? 50 shades of gray (no pun inteneded) when you're in the middle of it. Sometimes I read what I write to others and wonder why I cant do it for myself.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> Sometimes I read what I write to others and wonder why I cant do it for myself.


Aye...there's the rub.


Yes, I am saddened when I read how some WS's do absolutely nothing to help out the BS in their struggles. I'm not saying Regret was perfect during the last 8 months. She messed up a bit, too - however she always knew what needed to be done to help me deal. She's come a long way.

I hope you can find some peace. Remember, it's not about "staying for the kids"...it's about what's best for you AND them. Sometimes, what you know...all that you know...isn't the best thing for you.


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## thesunwillcomeout (Jun 25, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> Sun, thank you so much for your words. You made me bawl but I appreciate them! I dont know how people put on a happy face and pretend to not be upset or hurt. Thats why its always so hard for me to not say anything. It affects my whole demeanor and he knows when something is wrong with me and will keep asking me til I spill the beans.
> 
> Part of me wants to call him and tell him too effing bad he and the skank didnt come up with the winning numbers so that he leave this miserable place and go be with her in her happy world.
> 
> Thing is...he lived with her twice. Once for 4 mos then came home and then again for 3 mos. He obviously knows the grass isnt greener on the other side. He told me that I kicked him out and he had no place to go at the time.....HA!! WHATEVER!


He is one confused and conflicted individual. I'm so sorry.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> Its always black and white when you're not in it, isnt it? 50 shades of gray (no pun inteneded) when you're in the middle of it. Sometimes I read what I write to others and wonder why I cant do it for myself.


This is so true. People always laugh when I start to talk about things because I often preface what I say with, "This is not a simple question," or "There aren't just two sides to this," etc. (My children call me 'complicated Mom'.)

I think this is why it takes so long for us to get where we need to be when our hearts are on the line. I have no doubt that you'll decide where that place is, even if your H isn't helping at all with the journey. It will just take longer.


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## Hope Springs Eternal (Oct 6, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> Dig, you know sometimes I find myself getting jealous of the WH/WW's who help their BS's through this because they know they caused it. My H has never really helped me. He doesnt want to talk about it. I think sometimes its because he feels guilty but others I think are just because he doesnt care. Back in MC he was called a "conflict avoider" and he will do just about anything he can to avoid dealing with anything that involves feelings or emotions.


Well, I guess I have turned a corner of sorts (from always being the guy who fully supports R). 

I am going to say to you that he just does not sound committed at all to R. Does he say that he is? What is he doing to help? Are you just treading water?

I feel so badly that you are in this situation. I know what it feels like to say "my marriage is all I've ever known, ever needed, and I need it badly enough to fight to the death for it." But it just seems like he's not in this with you.


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## travellover (Aug 6, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> Thank you travel, I know that I deserve better. I really am a mess!
> 
> I dont know if Im coming or going sometimes. He has such a way or messing with my mind. Saying something that makes you think he cares and then saying or doing something that says he doesnt. Then when you say something about it he makes you feel like you're being ridiculous and making stuff up. Its a total mind f*ck!


I swear that your H and my H could be twins! He has the b*lls to act like I'm crazy when I question his "stories" like how dare I. Seriously?? Sometimes I think about recording him and then playing what he says back to me. He would NEVER believe half of the crap that he expects me to buy without question. I've been kind of journaling the stuff he tells me since the end of July. Hang in there! You're already stronger than you realize. You just have to tap into that part of you.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> This is so true. People always laugh when I start to talk about things because I often preface what I say with, "This is not a simple question," or "There aren't just two sides to this," etc. (My children call me 'complicated Mom'.)
> 
> I think this is why it takes so long for us to get where we need to be when our hearts are on the line. I have no doubt that you'll decide where that place is, even if your H isn't helping at all with the journey. It will just take longer.


Alte, sometimes I get so angry and sad all at the same time thinking about the time I am wasting that I could be using to heal myself from all of this. I love my husband and dont feel like Im wasting time until I find something else that sets me back (like this). I was willing to do everything I could to make it work but its been all on me. He will say he has had to do things for me but in reality he hasnt had to do much. 

I couldnt walk away in the beginning because my heart wouldnt let me, I had to make sure that no stone was left unturned. At this point I feel like I have done everything I can do to make things better on my end, except just all together forgetting everything that happened and pretending my life is perfect. Which seems to be what my H wants...is that because he loves me and wants to move on or because he is still deep in his PA and I just dont have the proof yet? Thats the part that haunts me everyday!!


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## travellover (Aug 6, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> He does have a cell but its provided by his work. *I have no access to the records because of that. Its been a huge enabler in his PA.*
> QUOTE]
> 
> I'm dealing with this too. I have no ability to see his work phone records. When I first confronted, he just started using his work phone to contact OW. H told me he wasn't bringing his work phone home at night anymore, but I found it in his car. There were some lovely messages and numerous calls to the OW on it. I pointed out to him that if the OW decided she was unhappy, she could make a pretty good case of sexual harassment due to the fact that they don't work together, but are together at his place of employment. Either way, his use of his work phone to contact OW would definitely violate company rules. He didn't appreciate this helpful advice when I gave it to him.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

bobka said:


> Well, I guess I have turned a corner of sorts (from always being the guy who fully supports R).
> 
> I am going to say to you that he just does not sound committed at all to R. Does he say that he is? What is he doing to help? Are you just treading water?
> 
> I feel so badly that you are in this situation. I know what it feels like to say "my marriage is all I've ever known, ever needed, and I need it badly enough to fight to the death for it." But it just seems like he's not in this with you.


I dont think he fits the story book idea of showing commitment after an A. Sometimes little things he does makes me think he is but other times I think he just wants to sweep it and move on. We do things together, enjoy each others company most of the time. We take baths together, go to the gym together, we almost always eat together (even if he comes in later, the kids will eat and I will wait to eat with him), he will fix my plate if Im busy. He does little things, he just shuts down when it comes to the heavy lifting or anytime I get emotional. Sidenote, the baths are not a romantic thing. It isnt a prelude to something more.

I am an very emotional person, always have been but this has made me worse, I think. Sometimes I cant even find my anger and I want to!


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> My issue with confrontation is that he always has such a way of explaining stuff away that I feel like Im paraoid and he is innocent (in the current situation) and I feel like it just takes away any progress we have made. Every time I confront him on something or get pissed about something and he drags it out of me he always says something like "here we go again", or "its never going to end" so it makes me feel like Im making things worse when I only want them to get better. Thats why I avoid confrontation but I wouldnt say that I do it to the extent that he just walks over me. Most of the time I cant keep my mouth shut and have to say something or it eats me up.


This is not a man who wants to R. Not truly. And yes, he is definitely a conflict avoider...though I wouldn't say in the same way as your counsellor said it. He is a coward basically. Affairs are cowardly acts, as is the not facing up to it once found out. And he definitely is not. He is either continuing the affair (I think this is the case), or he has lied totally about the affair, circumstances, feelings, length of time, the whole thing. He is using classic manipulation tactics to get you to stop bringing it up with the accusations he throws when you do, and classic manipulation of turning it back to you so you are paranoid and crazy and he is innocent.

This is not by accident! He knows what he is doing. And he does it for a purpose. So he can continue in whatever he does.

Do not make excuses for him. Do not believe for one minute that he wants to R, that he wants and wishes nothing more than for you and him to grow old together. He would not be saying the things he does if he wanted to R. He would not be avoiding, using avoidance tactics if he had given all the truth. He would be taking the pain away if he wanted R seriously.

Don't kid yourself. His actions and inactions are not about his personality. Everyone knows how to make right any wrongs. His behaviour is a clear signal that he does not want R.

Your feelings are present about what he is not verbalising because he is giving off tons of other signals in his behaviour and actions. Listen to your gut feeling.

Oh, and take his work phone and put on spyware. Do not be scared of the confrontation. You deserve to look because that is what he used. He should be offering that to you...if he cared. Put a VAR in his van. Ask his company if it is possible to obtain records. Also, she may have changed her number.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

travellover said:


> LetDownNTX said:
> 
> 
> > He does have a cell but its provided by his work. *I have no access to the records because of that. Its been a huge enabler in his PA.*
> ...


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## travellover (Aug 6, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> My H has never really helped me. He doesnt want to talk about it. I think sometimes its because he feels guilty but others I think are just because he doesnt care. Back in MC he was called a "*conflict avoider" and he will do just about anything he can to avoid dealing with anything that involves feelings or emotions.*
> 
> 
> > I swear this could be me speaking. My H has always refused any type of MC, but long before this current situation he was never willing to discuss much of anything. As soon as I would try to initiate a discussion about something that was bothering me, he would get angry, immediately bring up something that I had "done" to him that he never mentioned but suddenly needed to. He would get me so twisted around and defensive that we would never actually talk about my concern. It was absolutely exhausting!


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I've read your story & your H has put you through the mill. It's almost as if he couldn't just break your whole heart at once - he had to break it a chunk at a time.

I absolutely believe in reconciliation, in mending the heart, so to speak, but again, only you can decide whether it's really working for you. It sounds like you've been very, very hurt & your H has not had the compassion, understanding, and (dare I say it?) the selfless love necessary to allow you to heal.

In the final analysis, though, these decisions really are yours to make. If you think the R is generally working, then you can choose to give him the benefit of the doubt in this case. Your choice. You've chosen to love a very imperfect man. Your other choices follow from this.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

travellover said:


> LetDownNTX said:
> 
> 
> > My H has never really helped me. He doesnt want to talk about it. I think sometimes its because he feels guilty but others I think are just because he doesnt care. Back in MC he was called a "*conflict avoider" and he will do just about anything he can to avoid dealing with anything that involves feelings or emotions.*
> ...


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I've read your story & your H has put you through the mill. It's almost as if he couldn't just break your whole heart at once - he had to break it a chunk at a time.
> 
> I absolutely believe in reconciliation, in mending the heart, so to speak, but again, only you can decide whether it's really working for you. It sounds like you've been very, very hurt & your H has not had the compassion, understanding, and (dare I say it?) the selfless love necessary to allow you to heal.
> 
> In the final analysis, though, these decisions really are yours to make. If you think the R is generally working, then you can choose to give him the benefit of the doubt in this case. Your choice. You've chosen to love a very imperfect man. Your other choices follow from this.


Alte, thats where I get stuck. I keep trudging along and things will seem better for a little while and then something is said or done and I feel like its all been a waste of time. I get so mad thinking that he would just stay with me and put me through this when he could just leave and let me fine some kind of happiness. If he cant be faithful and love me then why does he bother staying? I dont understand it at all?! I love him and and want to be with him but I havent kept him from leaving if thats what he wants to do and he just doesnt do it. He never made an attempt to file for divorce. I had the papers filled out sitting on the counter while he was gone and still have them if I need them. He would get mad and say it was done and then the next day he would be calling me acting like nothing was wrong.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

Remains said:


> This is not a man who wants to R. Not truly. And yes, he is definitely a conflict avoider...though I wouldn't say in the same way as your counsellor said it. He is a coward basically. Affairs are cowardly acts, as is the not facing up to it once found out. And he definitely is not. He is either continuing the affair (I think this is the case), or he has lied totally about the affair, circumstances, feelings, length of time, the whole thing. He is using classic manipulation tactics to get you to stop bringing it up with the accusations he throws when you do, and classic manipulation of turning it back to you so you are paranoid and crazy and he is innocent.
> 
> This is not by accident! He knows what he is doing. And he does it for a purpose. So he can continue in whatever he does.
> 
> ...


Remains, Im going to print this out and read it......over and over!  Thank you!!


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

LetDown, all I can say is your story breaks my heart. My H has been overall good in R but has stumbled along the way. I cant imagine how I'd feel if he were doing these things. 

Do try and find out if he is in contact. You deserve to know and make an informed decision about R. It doesnt at all sound like he's at all into R. Not doing the work to help you survive this. Please look deeper and decide if he is in fact worth all of this heartache.

Best of luck

CTU


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> travellover said:
> 
> 
> > LetDownNTX said:
> ...


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## travellover (Aug 6, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> If he does something thats not in his normal behavior and I mention it to him or say "you dont normally do that", his first reaction is "ooohhhh thats weird, I must be cheating" or " I did something different, I must be up to something" in a *condescending manner *and this is even if I dont mean anything by what Im saying.
> 
> Does your H do that kind of crap too?


Yeah, unfortunately he does. Lately, he's become very condescending and sarcastic. On top of that he's always saying that I talk down to him or treat him like an employee. Well my employees nominated me for an award because of how I treated them with respect. 

It's ironic because this man has answered just about every question that I've asked him about the A with "I don't know" or "I don't remember". Convenient right? He will literally bring up crap from 10 years ago, but says he doesn't remember what happened last week? Sure he doesn't.

It's such a game with him and you are right, it is all about control. He's always trying to "catch" me in some kind of what he calls a lie. He's all about knowing where I am all the time, but he just doesn't feel that he should have to tell me where he was. If I took 10 minutes longer at the store than I guessed it would take me, I must have been doing something inappropriate and it meant he caught me in a lie. How stupid does that sound?? Yet I've put up with it for how long??

What he is very good at is putting a shred of truth into the story he tells me. Perhaps it makes it easier for him to lie? But since I've seen 0 remorse, I don't think he feels guilty about lying. 

Unfortunately, I think we are both married to A$$es. You and I will both get it figured out and ultimately do what is best for us!


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

travellover said:


> Yeah, unfortunately he does. Lately, he's become very condescending and sarcastic. On top of that he's always saying that I talk down to him or treat him like an employee. Well my employees nominated me for an award because of how I treated them with respect.
> 
> It's ironic because this man has answered just about every question that I've asked him about the A with "I don't know" or "I don't remember". Convenient right? He will literally bring up crap from 10 years ago, but says he doesn't remember what happened last week? Sure he doesn't.
> 
> ...


I think you might be right. My husband has said he was sorry for what he did to me and our marriage but only after I had a meltdown and told him that he's never said he's sorry. But everytime there is a trigger or a chance for him to confort me because of all of this he doesnt. That to me shows there is no remorse!


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> If he does something thats not in his normal behavior and I mention it to him or say "you dont normally do that", his first reaction is "ooohhhh thats weird, I must be cheating" or " I did something different, I must be up to something" in a condescending manner and this is even if I dont mean anything by what Im saying.
> 
> Does your H do that kind of crap too?


Yes. Very condescending. No love, no sensitivity. Not right. Wrong way round.

He gaslighted me, defensive, stomped out if I tried to talk, name called me, all problems we had were mine! 

Mine and yours are very similar.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> I think you might be right. My husband has said he was sorry for what he did to me and our marriage but only after I had a meltdown and told him that he's never said he's sorry. But everytime there is a trigger or a chance for him to confort me because of all of this he doesnt. That to me shows there is no remorse!


There's a difference, LD, between remorse and empathy. He may well recognize that what he did was bad & may well feel sorry about it, but it doesn't sound like he can genuinely care about your pain. Some people are too selfish in general to do that; some don't care enough about the other person to do it; some people simply are socially clueless and will try to do it if they understand that they should.

I think you desperately want your H to empathize & he simply can't/won't give that to you. He may never do it. It may be one of those cases where you can't get blood out of a turnip.

Again, it's your choice in the end how you handle how he makes you feel.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

travellover said:


> Yeah, unfortunately he does. Lately, he's become very condescending and sarcastic. On top of that he's always saying that I talk down to him or treat him like an employee. Well my employees nominated me for an award because of how I treated them with respect.
> 
> It's ironic because this man has answered just about every question that I've asked him about the A with "I don't know" or "I don't remember". Convenient right? He will literally bring up crap from 10 years ago, but says he doesn't remember what happened last week? Sure he doesn't.
> 
> ...


Condescending and sarcastic because he has lost all respect for you.

He says you talk down to him, manipulation. It's purpose is to shut you up and stop you bringing it up. He is also taking the spotlight off him and onto you. Another manipulation tactic. As you have pointed out, it has no basis. Therefore, it is a lie and said for effect only.

Don't accept 'I don't know' or 'I can't remember' as an answer. It is not an answer. As soon as he says this, know it is a lie.

This is how I know my man still lies. He remembers a conversation, all of it, but his last reply to her...'I can't remember'. Laughable. Sooo full of sh*t and he knows it.

He is trying to catch you in a lie to bring you down to his level. Something he can bash you with, something he can excuse his actions with and not answer what you put to him. 'Well you're not perfect, you lied about...' therfore avoided!

He worries about what you are up to because he does ALL that! If he is later than planned, he is up to something, without a doubt. He knows you know stuff but probably doesn't know how much you know and so he is continually worried that you will carry on like he has and does.

Finally, it needs a shred of truth in order to turn it from a joke to a 'serious' attack/defence. And the way they all defend their actions is to attack you. Easy. What is so stupid is that we fall for it and can't see it for what it is. It is so obvious when you see it. Yet so mentally abusive when you don't.

Anyway, LDT, I had to answer travellover. I think this is all pertinent to your situation too as her arse of a hubby seems to have some of the same afflictions as yours. And mine.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I think you desperately want your H to empathize & he simply can't/won't give that to you. He may never do it. It may be one of those cases where you can't get blood out of a turnip.


YES, you are right!

I feel like Im a very compassionate person and I just dont understand how you can be with someone for 21 years and not feel some sort of sadness in your heart when you see them hurting. It has always killed me to see him unhappy!


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

I seriously hope I can keep my mouth shut today. Im so irritated right now just thinking about that piece of paper towel I wanna stuff it down his throat . Its so blatantly obvious that those numbers were not just innocently written on a paper towel by an unknown individual and innocently picked up and brought into my house.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

I'm not sure why but in your situation it really, really bugs me that he's so nonchalant about your pain. You didn't do anything wrong but it just seems like you're the one doing all the work in reconciling.

It just boggles my mind - I cannot imagine talking to my husband that way especially with respect to the trust issues that I created.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

TCSRedhead said:


> I'm not sure why but in your situation it really, really bugs me that he's so nonchalant about your pain. You didn't do anything wrong but it just seems like you're the one doing all the work in reconciling.
> 
> It just boggles my mind - I cannot imagine talking to my husband that way especially with respect to the trust issues that I created.


I dont get it either, I would be stricken with guilty and doing everything I could to make things better.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> I dont get it either, I would be stricken with guilty and doing everything I could to make things better.


It's the Law of Conservation of Compassion


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## Betrayedwife (Nov 9, 2012)

Now I get to reply on your thread. You have been so supportive and helpful to me. I totally get it when they don't try to help the healing. I get it when they don't understand how triggers affect you. I was told once that I needed to get over it or it was going to ruin our relationship. I am all for trying to work things out. Lord knows I tried...three times. Ultimately, you have to do what is best for you. You have to determine what you are capable of living with and make decisions based on that. You ARE a compassionate person and you deserve compassion and peace of mind in return.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

LDT
I am so sorry to hear of this latest development. It sure looks like he got the numbers from you know who. Was he late coming home from work yesterday? It's doubly suspicious - he proved he the powerball numbers were on his mind b/c of his conversation with you about the numbers at the gym. 

You've done ALL the work so far. Now it's time for him to put up or move out. See a lawyer and find out what your options are. You should let him know that the time for you to do all work has come to an end.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

^^^^Absolutely! Time to kick back and watch the hard work come from the person who supposedly wants you and wants the marriage. From the person it was supposed to come from from day 1.

Tell him. 

'I have done the hard work that was supposed to be yours. The ball is now in your court if you want to save this marriage. I give up! And if nothing comes from you to fix, to give truth, to true R, within the next 2 weeks-1 month I am putting the divorce papers back on the table.'

I'll tell you what, you do that and I will too!

Though my situation is slightly different. My man wants R, and obviously so. The thing that is missing from our R is that he wants it without giving me the full truth. That doesn't work in my book. That is like getting wet without any water. It just does not fit. An impossibility. So, I would be asking for 100% truth so we can move to true R. I know I won't get it. I have just been working out when to say it and how. As I know that the moment I say it, that will be us over.

You may not be ready for it yet, maybe get Xmas out the way 1st? Maybe you dont want to do it at all and find another way? Though i think when they dig their selfish lying heels in to this degree, the only solution is force and deadly serious ultimatums. 

I am wondering about leaving til after Christmas....we have made plans and so thinking might be best to get that period of time out the way 1st. Though Christmas is a big trigger for me. I am already dreading it in some ways. I would like his company at Christmas so i will be waiting I think!!


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

underwater2010 said:


> I vote for keep it quit, but start keeping your eyes and ears open. It could be nothing or it could be something. But remember that we are not as niave as we were before.
> 
> To many people (inluding myself) confront we they find the small stuff. If we had been just a little more patient we could have found the whole picture before we confronted them.


:iagree:

and the whole "here we go again"....?
really?
when my wife has been foolish enough to utter something like that, the conversation is over and i turn around and walk out and let HER wonder if im coming back.
that is an extremely heartless and selfish thing for a WS to say.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

Well last night sucked. I tried to be normal and not say anything but he sensed something was wrong with me. I said I was fine (sick of lying) and then he seemed to act strange. I asked why he didnt buy a powerball and he said "why are you asking me that" I said "beacuse we talked about it and then you never bought one" and he said "why would I buy one we never buy them" I said "well its worth alot of money, it would have been worth a chance". The whole conversation his face was perplexed as to why I was bringing this up but he said nothing and the rest of the night we hardly spoke.

I couldnt sleep much last night because I was thinking about looking in his truck and finding the roll of paper towels that matched the piece I found and what I was going to do if I found it. This morning while he showered I searched the truck....NOTHING! Part of me is glad I found nothing the other part is frustrated because I know that he could still easily talk his way out of the coincidence of the numbers on the paper towel.

My problem is that I need solid proof...I have a tendency of going off on the smallest little suspicion and its never anything thats 100% proof of his wrong doings. The paper towel is so obvious to me but what does it prove? If God is sending me messages he needs to just knock it off and drop a big boulder in my lap, maybe then I'll have the proof that I need, solid proof that he cant talk his way out of !


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> I think you might be right. My husband has said he was sorry for what he did to me and our marriage but only after I had a meltdown and told him that he's never said he's sorry. But everytime there is a trigger or a chance for him to confort me because of all of this he doesnt. That to me shows there is no remorse!


this is also not right.
i have told my wife A LOT, unsolicited, that i am extremely regretful for not being the husband she deserved way back when. and letting my problems and selfishness override my marriage, commitment and more importantly, my RESPECT for her.
she has done the same.
you shouldnt have to ask for it.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

naga75 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> and the whole "here we go again"....?
> really?
> ...


:iagree:

To hear it over and over when I didnt create this mess hurts like hell!! I dont want to feel this way, I didnt ask to feel this way. I feel this way because of the things you have done to me and our marriage!


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

Have you thought of hiring a P.I.? If money is tight, do you have a friend who would tail him and maybe snap a few photos if he's meeting up with her?


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> :iagree:
> 
> To hear it over and over when I didnt create this mess hurts like hell!! I dont want to feel this way, I didnt ask to feel this way. I feel this way because of the things you have done to me and our marriage!


yes, i imagine that it does.
our situations are a little different, because i was also a WS.
so our conversations about her affair usually try to devolve into "well, i could say such and such about what YOU did", but i put a stop to that by telling her that we need to have two seperate conversations...one about her, one about me, but lets dont muddy the waters. i have also been EXTREMELY forthcoming with details, as in "ANY question you have i will answer", but i dont get that in return.
im serious though...the eye roll and "oh god not again here we go" sh!t...i aint havin any of that.
youre right, you didnt ask for it and you are in a MUCH better position morally than i am. which i regret (for me). i wouldnt stand for that kind of attitude for one minute.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

He's not "all in" he's 'in' just enough to have a place to eat, sleep, and have occasional moments of levity and peace. Is that enough?


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

maincourse99 said:


> Have you thought of hiring a P.I.? If money is tight, do you have a friend who would tail him and maybe snap a few photos if he's meeting up with her?


Oh how I would love to hire a PI, even thought about asking my brother to help me on that because I dont have the funds for it at this time. 

Most of the friends I have, he knows and Im afraid he would notice them. He's pretty observant of his surroundings most of the time. The place he works is in the middle of nowhere so in order to follow him when he left (which he could go two opposite directions) would be hard. Believe me I have thought about all of this. I have a BFF in VA that would do it in a heartbeat but she's in VA and Im here, doesnt help much!


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

walkonmars said:


> He's not "all in" he's 'in' just enough to have a place to eat, sleep, and have occasional moments of levity and peace. Is that enough?


No, thats why Im so miserable!!


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

At this point in the relationship you must try to understand something. You are miserable because he is not giving you what you need, and nothing, nothing you do or say is going to change him. It would be great if your words could convince him otherwise, but is is unlikely to happen. He will change when he wants to, and when his family means something more to him. So in the meantime, you need to take of you and the children. And prepare emotionally, and financially for the possibility that the change you hope will materialize, just doesn't. Its scary, but you will survive.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You sound very trapped by your circumstances as well as by your emotions. You say that your circumstances make it hard to create physical distance from your H. What about creating some emotional distance? Is there any way to force yourself to do that?


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> You sound very trapped by your circumstances as well as by your emotions. You say that your circumstances make it hard to create physical distance from your H. What about creating some emotional distance? Is there any way to force yourself to do that?


I have tried that, still willing to keep trying, just dont know how to do it and be successful with it. Just stop caring? Stop showing it?

Ive already stopped asking questions about what he's doing, when he's coming home, etc. Ive already stopped expecting to hear from him at some point during the day. (I used to want him to call me daily even if it were for a minute). I feel like Ive changed alot of the things I once did, hoping it would change everything overall but maybe I need to do more...but what?


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

LetDownNTX said:


> I have tried that, still willing to keep trying, just dont know how to do it and be successful with it. Just stop caring? Stop showing it?
> 
> Ive already stopped asking questions about what he's doing, when he's coming home, etc. Ive already stopped expecting to hear from him at some point during the day. (I used to want him to call me daily even if it were for a minute). I feel like Ive changed alot of the things I once did, hoping it would change everything overall but maybe I need to do more...but what?


I really think you should do a 180 and detach, rather than invest more of yourself into an emotionally abusive relationship. Sending hugs


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## travellover (Aug 6, 2012)

Remains said:


> Condescending and sarcastic because he has lost all respect for you.
> 
> He says you talk down to him, manipulation. It's purpose is to shut you up and stop you bringing it up. He is also taking the spotlight off him and onto you. Another manipulation tactic. As you have pointed out, it has no basis. Therefore, it is a lie and said for effect only.
> 
> ...


Remains, I'm sorry to hear that your in this "club" too. I did take me a long time to realize that he was simply getting me off topic by picking a fight or trying to bring up supposed wrongs that I had done. Thank you for making me smile by calling my hubby an arse! I'm going to read your posts. I hope this response finds you enjoying some part of your day


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## Hope Springs Eternal (Oct 6, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> I have tried that, still willing to keep trying, just dont know how to do it and be successful with it. Just stop caring? Stop showing it?
> 
> Ive already stopped asking questions about what he's doing, when he's coming home, etc. Ive already stopped expecting to hear from him at some point during the day. (I used to want him to call me daily even if it were for a minute). I feel like Ive changed alot of the things I once did, hoping it would change everything overall but maybe I need to do more...but what?


So, do you ever hear from him throughout the day at this point? Is he trying at all?


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

bobka said:


> So, do you ever hear from him throughout the day at this point? Is he trying at all?


Not really unless he wants or needs something. I can text him and he will reply most of the time but I dont even do that anymore unless I have to. When he leaves work he will sometimes text me he is on the way but that is not always a given.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Wow, LD. I know it might not seem like a big deal to some, but Regret has texted me every single day when she is leaving work or if she has to stay after for something or even, like today, when she wanted to stop by the store to get our daughter a birthday present. THESE are the kinds of things the WS must and should be doing without any kind of asking on the BS's part. I don't know if I'm just lucky that Regret "gets it" or that there just seems to be a rash of WS's that just aren't working the way they should be.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> Wow, LD. I know it might not seem like a big deal to some, but Regret has texted me every single day when she is leaving work or if she has to stay after for something or even, like today, when she wanted to stop by the store to get our daughter a birthday present. THESE are the kinds of things the WS must and should be doing without any kind of asking on the BS's part. I don't know if I'm just lucky that Regret "gets it" or that there just seems to be a rash of WS's that just aren't working the way they should be.


Probably a little of both! I wish my WH could understand how much it could help us if he would just do the little things. When I have to complain to get him to do something it just isnt the same when he does it.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> I have tried that, still willing to keep trying, just dont know how to do it and be successful with it. Just stop caring? Stop showing it?
> 
> Ive already stopped asking questions about what he's doing, when he's coming home, etc. Ive already stopped expecting to hear from him at some point during the day. (I used to want him to call me daily even if it were for a minute). I feel like Ive changed alot of the things I once did, hoping it would change everything overall but maybe I need to do more...but what?


How about just start doing things just for you, and you alone? Some kind of light 180, force yourself too go out, go for walk, run, go to the gym, a cafe or whatever, do it when he is at home.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

cpacan said:


> How about just start doing things just for you, and you alone? Some kind of light 180, force yourself too go out, go for walk, run, go to the gym, a cafe or whatever, do it when he is at home.


You must have been reading my mind, I was already planning a pedicure for tonight


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> Wow, LD. I know it might not seem like a big deal to some, but Regret has texted me every single day when she is leaving work or if she has to stay after for something or even, like today, when she wanted to stop by the store to get our daughter a birthday present. THESE are the kinds of things the WS must and should be doing without any kind of asking on the BS's part. I don't know if I'm just lucky that Regret "gets it" or that there just seems to be a rash of WS's that just aren't working the way they should be.


This is what I do too. I also email my calendar and keep him up to date with changes. Anything I can do to help him through this is priority #1 for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Yes, doing some things just for you, especially when he is home. Tell him you're going out for coffee. Take your keys and go. Make a lunch date. Go sit in B&N and read. Go to the gym or take a walk. Just declare a small bit of independence. Don't do it to get him to notice. Do it to rebuild your own self-esteem.

I agree that a 'light' 180 is a good idea.

You can take small steps with this. Just pick one thing a week to do every day, just for yourself - again, not to get him to notice, just for you.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Though him noticing can only be a good thing!


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

travellover said:


> Remains, I'm sorry to hear that your in this "club" too. I did take me a long time to realize that he was simply getting me off topic by picking a fight or trying to bring up supposed wrongs that I had done. Thank you for making me smile by calling my hubby an arse! I'm going to read your posts. I hope this response finds you enjoying some part of your day


 thank you....yes I am enjoying my day. At least now I am! 

I cdn't wait til Christmas LDT and called him out today. 

Been trying to talk for 3 days. The red flags of bullsh*t manipulation flew high. With the amazingly transparent answer of 'I don't know' following some heartfelt words and pleads from me for basic honesty and having a true solid relationship. 

His anger once we got to the question in question, defense, and my not buying into it, created a man who stomped off in anger, was rude, very rude, typical classic responses, and then my not buying into it meant he came back, loving, he tried to kiss me, he tried to be nice to me, I ignored, asked me what I am up to for the evening, would I like to go over to his for tea! 

I said 'I don't know'.

LDT and travellover, are u able to call out your men on their manipulative and crap wayward behaviour? I do hope so. Can you turn back on them what they turn on you? See what happens if you can, if you do? Will they return from their righteous crap down to a place that exists on earth? And show their hand in their ridiculous responses?


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## travellover (Aug 6, 2012)

Remains said:


> thank you....yes I am enjoying my day. At least now I am!
> 
> I cdn't wait til Christmas LDT and called him out today.
> 
> ...


I do call my H out but he ALWAYS brings it back to something that he says I've done. For example, I questioned him on Friday night because I saw that once again the OW had texted him on our phone. He was indignant and rude when I asked why and what they were about. When I asked what the picture was that he received, he said, "I don't know. I didn't get a picture text". When I told him to let me see the texts, he said why would I keep those on my phone? I wish there was a DUH smiley.

He did seem to realize that he crossed a line about something else entirely yesterday. He was being a complete jerk about something extremely important to me. Like bucket list, once in a lifetime important. Last night, he did say he was sorry for acting how he did. My first thought was, well that must have been painful to say because he very rarely apologizes.

LD and Remains do you have the same trouble getting a sincere apology? If I do something and know that I'm in the wrong, I own up and apologize. My H will hold continue to hold a grudge. If I do get a random semi-sincere apology, I'm expected to believe it and get over whatever my issue was.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Since he can erase his phone anyway, get a VAR from Walmart or bestbuy. They start around $40. Areally good one that lasts a while and has worked for people here many times, is an Olympus model that costs about $99.

Cheaters talk on the phone in their car. Velcro it under the drivers seat.

Since he would be so hard to follow, could your brother/friend follow his girlfriend or check her house?


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

Well.... H and I had a rough day on Sunday because he was sitting next to me with phone in hand and I texted him a joke (picture) and I never heard it buzz. I asked if he got it, he said yes then I asked why it doesnt buzz or anything. The notifications are turned off. Well dont you understand that makes you look sneaky. Of course his come back was that he would turn off emails too if he could because he doesnt want to be bothered at home and that myself and BFF are the only ones that text him...WHATEVER!! That argument led to a million other things and spilled over into today.

Here are the "highlights" of the argument..

- I always bring OW into the picture (its not always me, sometimes I can not say it and he assumes thats what Im talking about) BUT YES, when you kicked me to the gutter she came into the picture, its natural

- Its never going to end, its never going to get better (heard this one a million times)

- He has changed, he feels differently about life then he used to. He cares about me but he's sick of going through this all the time. (ME TOO but I feel like I feed off of him)

- The counselor supposedly told him he could make a clean break or a staggered break from OW (this was after I told him I knew why he wouldnt go back because the counselor would make him accountable). What ever he wanted to do. He also told me that the counselor asked who he wanted to be with and who was better in bed in order to base his decision. Which is funny because the counselor told ME that my H said I was better. Who knows if thats what H said or if he was just blowing smoke up my arse.

- I told him I thought if he left here again he would be right back with her, this makes him angry, doesnt understand why I think that. Maybe its because you left me multiple times for her?

- He thinks I need to get out of the house and get a real job around real people so that Im not inside all the time and thinking about this situation all the time. I believe this too but it was the way he belittled me by saying "making real money" . There were months in the past year that I made more money then he did, not now because Ive lost some income but I was making what he was marking for a good while in the last 3-4 years.

- I told him that every time he gets the opportunity to make things better for us or has a chance to reassure me me basically throws his finger in the air at me and says he doesn't care. 

We were on the phone for an hour today bickering about the same stuff as always and guess what....its still not resolved.

I told him I think we need marriage counseling. He laughed and said "fine make an appt" By the end of the conversation he was telling me to make an appt and let him know when it was. All this was very condescending because I know that he doesnt want to go and said that 'if it would shut me up to make a damn appt'. Sweet that he cares and wants to fix our marriage isnt it? 

Thats all for now....I have to go and make that appt he requested...LOL


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

travellover said:


> LD and Remains do you have the same trouble getting a sincere apology? If I do something and know that I'm in the wrong, I own up and apologize. My H will hold continue to hold a grudge. If I do get a random semi-sincere apology, I'm expected to believe it and get over whatever my issue was.


I brought up this exact thing today telling him that I always tell him Im sorry for things and he is never sorry for things he does or says to me that hurt me. He said he is sorry and he's told me that before. Yeah, theres a difference between being sorry and being remorseful. I want remorse....probably wont ever get it.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You do feed off of him. You've given him a lot of power over not just your daily doings, but your mind.

180. Get some relief from the constant mind games.


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## Hope Springs Eternal (Oct 6, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> We were on the phone for an hour today bickering about the same stuff as always and guess what....its still not resolved.


I'm so sorry he's being such a jerk. Why can't he come to the table?

BTW, the notifications thing is a double-edged sword in my world. I wish she'd turn hers off, 'cause everytime it goes off, I'm concerned that it's gonna be him (OM, who she has to stay in touch with for work), and I just don't want to know.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> You do feed off of him. You've given him a lot of power over not just your daily doings, but your mind.
> 
> 180. Get some relief from the constant mind games.


:iagree:

Just seems like he is playing mind games with you. He gets under your skin, you get emotional and he blameshifts and continues to make you feel like crap. If you do not give him a reaction, he cannot keep up the cycle.

It is hard, VERY HARD to not give in when your buttons are being pushed. It takes alot of practice of the 180 to get that part down - not engaging when things get emotional. 

I'm sorry but your WH has no remorse and doesn't respect you. Period. 

And MC won't work with OW still in the picture. Nothing will work as long as she is still around.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> :
> 
> And MC won't work with OW still in the picture. Nothing will work as long as she is still around.


I totally agree. Of course he says that she isnt around and he hasnt talked to her but we dont know the truth!


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> I totally agree. Of course he says that she isnt around and he hasnt talked to her but we dont know the truth!


That is the kicker right there. Your gut is telling you he is lying or at least something isn't "right". You are being convinced you are crazy b/c of course he isn't talking to her (so he says, yet knows you have no way to verify this)

He really needs to step up his game on transparency pretty soon. I am sure *if* he was truely remorseful, he would do anything to get you those phone records. My stbxh works in IT and handled all the cell phone bills. I also work in IT and dealt with cell phone bills. The detailed reports are available and users could request them at any time. I am not sure what his company policy is but I don't know why he would not be able to get the call logs for the phone he is assigned to...other than he doesn't want to b/c OW number is on there. 

So what is going to be the last straw that breaks the camels back before you decide to leave?


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

bobka said:


> I'm so sorry he's being such a jerk. Why can't he come to the table?
> 
> BTW, the notifications thing is a double-edged sword in my world. I wish she'd turn hers off, 'cause everytime it goes off, I'm concerned that it's gonna be him (OM, who she has to stay in touch with for work), and I just don't want to know.


Because he's wrong and he knows it and he doesnt want anyone to point it out to him. I am not the type that beats him up over it. I know that we cant move forward if I do that but I always wonder if she's still in the picture when he isnt giving 100% to me and our marriage. How can you not?!


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> That is the kicker right there. Your gut is telling you he is lying or at least something isn't "right". You are being convinced you are crazy b/c of course he isn't talking to her (so he says, yet knows you have no way to verify this)
> 
> He really needs to step up his game on transparency pretty soon. I am sure *if* he was truely remorseful, he would do anything to get you those phone records. My stbxh works in IT and handled all the cell phone bills. I also work in IT and dealt with cell phone bills. The detailed reports are available and users could request them at any time. I am not sure what his company policy is but I don't know why he would not be able to get the call logs for the phone he is assigned to...other than he doesn't want to b/c OW number is on there.
> 
> So what is going to be the last straw that breaks the camels back before you decide to leave?


That is exactly why he wont make any attempt to get the records, plus he is a private person and would say that its embarrassing to him because its noone elses business. He would absolutely tear me to shreds if he knew I was on this forum talking about our life together.

I have asked myself what its going to take. I dont know. I just dont feel like I can walk away from my marriage on suspicions...Ive hung in this long and feel like I need solid proof (for the 4th time...God that sounds ridiculous) For the last 3 years Ive been suspicious but no solid proof. Im a suspicious person so I analyze everything which makes me crazier then I already am. I honestly dont know how much more I can handle of feeling like this though. One day I think Im going to wake up and not have the same feelings for him.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> That is exactly why he wont make any attempt to get the records, plus he is a private person and would say that its embarrassing to him because its noone elses business. He would absolutely tear me to shreds if he knew I was on this forum talking about our life together.
> 
> I have asked myself what its going to take. I dont know. I just dont feel like I can walk away from my marriage on suspicions...Ive hung in this long and feel like I need solid proof (for the 4th time...God that sounds ridiculous) For the last 3 years Ive been suspicious but no solid proof. Im a suspicious person so I analyze everything which makes me crazier then I already am. I honestly dont know how much more I can handle of feeling like this though. One day I think Im going to wake up and not have the same feelings for him.


I think your next step is trying to get proof. No matter what. If that's what you need to leave. Your mental and emotional state is not going to get ANY better with him gas lighting, blame shifting and making you doubt yourself. I do understand the wanting definite proof before leaving. Just don't compromise yourself too much "waiting" for that proof. 

Your gut and intuition are there for a reason. Don't ignore them. You are suspicious for a reason - YOUR HUSBAND IS NOT DEDICATED TO YOU OR THE MARRIAGE. 

You seem very scared of him and his reactions. I understand that, I was there before. Still am slightly - knowing what will p!ss of stbxh and not wanting to p!ss him off at all. 

It is hard to break those chains of fear. But once you do it is so liberating. If you can just start implementing the 180 to get some strength for yourself, it would help you greatly.

Also, I think the 180 would be good since whenever you guys do talk it just keeps going around and around in circles, nothing getting resolved. THat is extremely draining and will just leave you feeling even more depleted.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

What would you do if you had the proof in your hands this very minute?


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_What would you do if you had the proof in your hands this very minute?_


This is the most important question. You have been through his past cheating and are still with him. If I had to bet, if you had proof of his cheating you would stay with him. 

I don't think you should bother investigating to see if he's 
cheating unless you're ready to divorce him. 

If you aren't prepared to do that, I think you should just go about your life, enjoy your kids and put it all out of your mind before you drive yourself crazy. 

At some point you really should decide how you want to live your life, I don't think the way you are currently operating is what you want you life to be. You're in Limbo, the worst place, like a slow death.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> What would you do if you had the proof in your hands this very minute?


I would probably fall apart but then I would get the extra locks I have under the counter stashed away and I would change them. I would throw all of his necessary items out the front door in a garbage bag and then call him and tell him Im done and that I hate him for dragging me through this hell for the last 3 years (5 almost 6 total).

He would deny any wrong doing unless I had solid proof in my hand!


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_I would probably fall apart but then I would get the extra locks I have under the counter stashed away and I would change them. I would throw all of his necessary items out the front door in a garbage bag and then call him and tell him Im done and that I hate him for dragging me through this hell for the last 3 years (5 almost 6 total).

He would deny any wrong doing unless I had solid proof in my hand!_



I'm so glad to hear you say that! Got to get tough!


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

.....he will deny even when you do have solid proof in your hands! I had the chat logs that showed they went to lunch and he was going to delete the chats and change his password. IN MY HANDS!!!

He refused to read them to me and still denied denied denied and shifted blame. 

Don't think proof will get him to tell the truth either.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

maincourse99 said:


> _What would you do if you had the proof in your hands this very minute?_
> 
> 
> This is the most important question. You have been through his past cheating and are still with him. If I had to bet, if you had proof of his cheating you would stay with him.
> ...


Well obviously I dont want to live like this. I am living like this right now because I dont have solid proof. I have suspicions but that is it.

I have lived by myself for approximately 2 years when we were separated, off and on. I know that I can survive. I do depend on him alot but your statement makes me feel like Im some pathetic fool that would just sit back and let my husband cheat on me and be ok with it and thats not the case. 

Three times I have kicked him out, he has come back but each time it was because things were going to change and they didnt. The only thing Im guilty of is loving him and giving him chances to make things right. If that makes me a bad person then Im a bad person.

Do I love him, YES, do I love him too much...YES probably so! I dont want to feel this way, its not ok with me. Im tired of feeling this way but I also have a past that haunts me and it makes it hard for me to walk away from my family. Think of me what you will but Im not hurting anyone but myself!


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

So you would leave if you had proof, but you live in a constant state of agitation and trepidation because you don't really want to find that final proof. If you do, it will be the last nail in the coffin & that's not what you want.

Living on the edge like that not only makes you miserable but gives your H the upper hand. Your real concerns allow him to paint you as the nag that will eventually drive him away. He can say that you drove him to whatever bad decision he winds up making.

Is it possible to tell him that you're done playing sheriff? That the truth will eventually find you & if he is still messing around with the OW, you will be gone & it's on him? 
And then just try to recover some strength and self-esteem and live your life? It may seem like it now, but the world won't fall apart if you let down some of your guard. He sounds like he's going to do what he's going to do no matter what. You deserve at least a little peace of mind.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> So you would leave if you had proof, but you live in a constant state of agitation and trepidation because you don't really want to find that final proof. If you do, it will be the last nail in the coffin & that's not what you want. Does anyone want to find the proof that their spouse is cheating on them? I dont want to find anything but if there is something there then yes I want to know
> 
> Living on the edge like that not only makes you miserable but gives your H the upper hand. Your real concerns allow him to paint you as the nag that will eventually drive him away. He can say that you drove him to whatever bad decision he winds up making. This is exactly what I feel like is happening. I cant make him understand that in order for me to let my guard down I need to feel like he's committed. I need to hear him say he loves me, I need him to hug me for God's sake, I need him to comfort me when Im hurting...he's the one that hurt me why cant he comfort me? The things I am asking for and wanting from him are not unrealistic. Maybe he isnt capable of giving them to me because of whatever messed up thing is going on is his head, I dont know. He said something about us being in love on Saturday, in a goof/kidding way and I said "its too late for that" and he said "what do you mean, do you mean that, I cant believe you said that, are you serious" and he genuinely looked hurt by my statement. What kind of person acts hurt when you say that but then walks away when you are hurting and need him? He has issues, I dont think he does things to me just out of meanness.
> 
> ...


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Wait. Wait, wait, wait wait...WAIT.

I'm still trying to get past the counselor asking him who was better in bed in order to help him make his decision.

WTF Over?!!


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> Wait. Wait, wait, wait wait...WAIT.
> 
> I'm still trying to get past the counselor asking him who was better in bed in order to help him make his decision.
> 
> WTF Over?!!


:iagree:


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> Wait. Wait, wait, wait wait...WAIT.
> 
> I'm still trying to get past the counselor asking him who was better in bed in order to help him make his decision.
> 
> WTF Over?!!


Pretty F'ed up huh??

Its funny cause I think that the counselor was trying to get on his good side because he knew that my H was going to be difficult. He was trying to build his trust is what Im thinking? I remember the counselor specifically telling me that he had asked my H if he loved her and he said NO and he had asked him who was better in bed and he had said me. I dont know how true that was but Im thinking he was trying to make me feel hopeful, I dont know. It all seems messed up, no matter how much you trying to figure it out.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

Even without the affair, it does not sound like you get what you want/need in the marriage with respect to respect, affection and commitment. He speaks down to you, belittles your fears and concerns and offers little to no view of his life outside your home.

If your daughter came to you for advice with this very situation, what would be your heartfelt advice?


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## totallyunexpected (Nov 21, 2012)

LetDown,

About two weeks ago, I found myself in the Coping with Infidelity forum - a place I never imagined I would be (only two years into my marriage). Since then, every time I see your profile picture, I feel like I just know you are a wonderful person. Reading your heartaches and kind advice to others only confirms this. I wish you were near where I was and that you could be my friend in this time of need (mine and yours).

I don't have any new advice. You already know what you are looking for: proof. I just wish I could facilitate your search. Seriously, if I lived nearby I would totally be your PI for free. Haha, this is sick but why does such a job sound so rewarding right now. 

I don't think my husband is continuing contact with any females. I caught him early and it wasn't emotional or physical. It was about to be physical. But my faith in him and our marriage has gone through the shredder. I don't like the angry and suspicious person I've become. I feel for you. 

Could you get a GPS device to put on his car? Then check where he goes? See what patterns you find? 

Sending you some sincere human love, even though I'm just a stranger.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

totallyunexpected said:


> LetDown,
> 
> About two weeks ago, I found myself in the Coping with Infidelity forum - a place I never imagined I would be (only two years into my marriage). Since then, every time I see your profile picture, I feel like I just know you are a wonderful person. Reading your heartaches and kind advice to others only confirms this. I wish you were near where I was and that you could be my friend in this time of need (mine and yours).
> 
> ...


Thank you, that means a lot.

Im not a strong person, though some would say it takes more strength to stay then it does to go. Some probably think Im a glutton for punishment that deserves what I get because I dont stand up for myself. I dont know?! Maybe all of my problems are within myself and Im looking at H to fix them, I dont know. After 20+ years with someone its hard to follow your brain and not your heart. I know what the right thing to do is, I know what I would advise others to do but sometimes its hard to follow my own advice.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

"Does anyone want to find the proof that their spouse is cheating on them? I dont want to find anything but if there is something there then yes I want to know"

No, no one ever wants to find this. Of course not.

Because your H can't or won't give you the emotional security on this issue that you need, you stay on constant edge, which I understand.

So, I suggest again: 180 - at least in part - just to give you a mental break from the stress.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

It's very hard to follow our own advice. We either don't realize that we deserve the very happiness and freedom that we prescribe to others or feel that we DO deserve to be miserable. 

I think you're a very warm, compassionate person who genuinely wants her husband to show her the love, respect and transparency she deserves but I have doubts that he'll ever BE that person when he hasn't done that during the time he should be more than ever.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

TCSRedhead said:


> It's very hard to follow our own advice. We either don't realize that we deserve the very happiness and freedom that we prescribe to others or feel that we DO deserve to be miserable.
> 
> I think you're a very warm, compassionate person who genuinely wants her husband to show her the love, respect and transparency she deserves but I have doubts that he'll ever BE that person when he hasn't done that during the time he should be more than ever.


This is where things get crazy with him. He doesnt see where he doesnt give me enough. We do things together, have fun together, laugh together, etc. He just doesnt meet my emotional needs. Is it because Im asking for too much? Is it because he has something messed up in his brain that he cant? Is it because he doesnt care, even though he says he doesnt? What exactly is keeping him from being what I need him to be.

Honestly he has never been the overly affectionate/emotional type, so am I expecting too much from him now, more then he's capable of? I can only speak for myself but if I hurt him in any way I would do everything I had to do to make it right, if I ever saw him hurting I would do everything to make him feel good. Am i wrong to have the same expectations from him?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> I can only speak for myself but if I hurt him in any way I would do everything I had to do to make it right, if I ever saw him hurting I would do everything to make him feel good. Am i wrong to have the same expectations from him?


You're not wrong, just unrealistic, I think. You can have the same hopes, but not expectations. It's taken me three decades to accept this (even just a little bit) about my H, so I guess we're all a little slow on the uptake.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> This is where things get crazy with him. He doesnt see where he doesnt give me enough. We do things together, have fun together, laugh together, etc. He just doesnt meet my emotional needs. Is it because Im asking for too much? Is it because he has something messed up in his brain that he cant? Is it because he doesnt care, even though he says he doesnt? What exactly is keeping him from being what I need him to be.
> 
> Honestly he has never been the overly affectionate/emotional type, so am I expecting too much from him now, more then he's capable of? I can only speak for myself but if I hurt him in any way I would do everything I had to do to make it right, if I ever saw him hurting I would do everything to make him feel good. Am i wrong to have the same expectations from him?



The only thing I can think of is that HIS emotional needs are being met so he could really give a rats butthole about meeting the needs of others. As long as HE is ok and satisfied, that's all that matters.

I had a very similar discussion with my stbxh. I told him MY emotional needs were not being met and I needed more from him. He said that when I am in the room with him and physically around him (even just sitting watching tv) he was very content and felt "complete". I told him that wasn't enough and I needed interaction, talking, communication, quality time together and watching tv or a movie was not "quality time". He just didn't get it. He could not comprehend it b/c HIS NEEDS were satisfied. We had probably a 2 hour discussion on the matter and he STILL DID NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT I NEEDED and he was unwilling to put in anymore work b/c his needs were met.


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## totallyunexpected (Nov 21, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> This is where things get crazy with him. He doesnt see where he doesnt give me enough. We do things together, have fun together, laugh together, etc. He just doesnt meet my emotional needs. Is it because Im asking for too much? Is it because he has something messed up in his brain that he cant? Is it because he doesnt care, even though he says he doesnt? What exactly is keeping him from being what I need him to be.
> 
> Honestly he has never been the overly affectionate/emotional type, so am I expecting too much from him now, more then he's capable of? I can only speak for myself but if I hurt him in any way I would do everything I had to do to make it right, if I ever saw him hurting I would do everything to make him feel good. Am i wrong to have the same expectations from him?


I'm asking the same questions about my husband. He's trying to do everything but what's most important to me. I want to to talk about and talk about and talk about what he has done to our marriage. I want him to apologize apologize apologize. I just want him to express remorse. Show me you hurt seeing me hurt. That's all I really need.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

_"Am i wrong to have the same expectations from him?"_

Unfortunately - yes - to an extent. A man's mind does not process this as woman's mind does.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I definitely think that some of what goes on is just the detritus of the disconnect between manspeak and womanspeak, rather than anything nefarious on the part of the men. Not to say that it's all harmless, of course, but...

Anyway, studies show that from the male perspective, they are always trying to translate what we mean when we express ourselves. We tell them we want 'reassurance' and not problem-solving, so they then apply that across the board, which means that the next time we need a problem solved, they reassure us. Men will always say that they are not 'mind readers,' which is a good indicator of the issue. (Just this past weekend, I talked to my H about a problem I felt was important & he sat there compassionately and told me he loved me and that everything was fine. I couldn't seem to convince him that I really wanted something concrete done about the issue.)

No doubt there's some of this going on with you and your H, LDN - we all have some of that - but it also sounds like he's in the driver's seat emotionally and this keeps you very much on edge.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> The only thing I can think of is that HIS emotional needs are being met so he could really give a rats butthole about meeting the needs of others. As long as HE is ok and satisfied, that's all that matters.
> 
> I had a very similar discussion with my stbxh. I told him MY emotional needs were not being met and I needed more from him. He said that when I am in the room with him and physically around him (even just sitting watching tv) he was very content and felt "complete". I told him that wasn't enough and I needed interaction, talking, communication, quality time together and watching tv or a movie was not "quality time". He just didn't get it. He could not comprehend it b/c HIS NEEDS were satisfied. We had probably a 2 hour discussion on the matter and he STILL DID NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT I NEEDED and he was unwilling to put in anymore work b/c his needs were met.



I never really thought about it like that but I can assure you that my H's needs are being met because I make sure to it, most of the time. If he is content he thinks everyone should be, I guess.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

old timer said:


> _"Am i wrong to have the same expectations from him?"_
> 
> Unfortunately - yes - to an extent. A man's mind does not process this as woman's mind does.


So then what should I expect? Im not a man, I dont know what is overkill and what isnt. Coming here you see some men that care like women and women that think like men, so its kinda hard to pinpoint what the norm for me is.


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## travellover (Aug 6, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> Well.... H and I had a rough day on Sunday because he was sitting next to me with phone in hand and I texted him a joke (picture) and I never heard it buzz. I asked if he got it, he said yes then I asked why it doesnt buzz or anything. *The notifications are turned off. Well dont you understand that makes you look sneaky. *
> 
> Boy am I familiar with this one. Like I've said before, it's always about having a comeback or anything to throw you off the real issue. My H is an excellent user of this techinique.
> 
> ...


I sure hope today is a better day.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

My husband talks about the future too, which confuses me more since his actions dont match his words. How are you going to talk about the future when the present sucks so much?


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Mine talked about the future too. Before i left we were seriously considering staring to look for retirement property.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I missed the part where you explained why you haven't put a VAR in his truck.

I think he thinks he's just spinning his wheels taliking to you about it.

What emotional needs do you have that he is not providing? What is your emotional needs list?


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

chapparal said:


> I missed the part where you explained why you haven't put a VAR in his truck.
> 
> I think he thinks he's just spinning his wheels taliking to you about it.
> 
> What emotional needs do you have that he is not providing? What is your emotional needs list?


I cant say that Ive listed them but I think they are obvious needs that anyone would want.

My biggest problem is the fact that when something is bothering me (ex: the notifications being off for his texts) and I bring it up he gets pissed and defensive about it. He could so easily say something different and I wouldn't think he was hiding stuff. 

No reassurance when things are bad. I don't ask for constant reassurance but I get NONE. He says he is here, I should accept that to mean he loves me and wants to be there. BUT in an argument he will bring up the finances and say we cant live separately so that just contradicts what he said before.

He used to tell me he loved me at the end of every phone conversation, every time he walked out the door, etc. I never hear it anymore. Only when its in response to me saying it. 

Every time I have been hurt or upset in the last several years he has failed to comfort me. I cant remember the last time he put his arms around me and told me its going to be ok.

Overall I guess it boils down to his lack of remorse for the situation. He has never really acknowledged how much he has hurt me.

I havent put a VAR in his car because its a company truck and I dont have much access to it. I'm terrified that I'd put it in there and it would be discovered. I think Im also terrified that it would be the final nail in the coffin. Not that I dont want to know, its just gonna suck to know!!


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## travellover (Aug 6, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> My husband talks about the future too, which confuses me more since his actions dont match his words. How are you going to talk about the future when the present sucks so much?


Yeah his present sucks, but it sucks a lot more for you. He's still in control and unwilling to do anything but meet his own needs. He might need to deal with you bugging him about something suspicious, but oh well. He's still in a way better place because he knows how much you love him. You, however are way left twisting and turning and questioning because of your undying devotion. I wish he feel your feelings for just ONE day!

I think mine is in serious denial. Because he's basically talking out of his arse he thinks that my issues with his actions will just go away. He thinks that because he was able to get me off topic so many other times before, that this will stop being a problem. Unfortunately, he's mistaken this time. The clock is ticking and I can only hope that when I'm actually gone, he truly realizes how good he had. By that time, I won't care anymore. Wow, I guess I sound angry tonight. Interesting?


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

LD, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings with my post. It's just that we all empathize with you and want to help and see you happy. My wife cheated 5 years ago. I told her if it happened again, I Will definitely divorce you.

When I found the incriminating email and confronted her, she admitted it, but did I follow through right away and file for divorce? No. I begged, cried and pleaded with her to stop and stay. See, most all of us are weak. No shame in that, it's a horrible nightmare to go through.

She left, got her own place and I played the please pick me game for over 2 months. Finally, she said she was moving in with her POSOM. Ok, that finally did it, everyone on here said FILE, and I finally saw the light.

I have a child, and the last thing I ever wanted was to put her through this. But she's doing well. I thought I would be very lonely, but I'm not, I'm at peace and looking forward to the future with optimism. 

The biggest thing PEACE! No more worrying about what she's up to. I'm in control of my life. I'm 12 years older than you with an 11 yo child, I wasted the last 5 years of my life with my STBXW. Think long and hard as to whether you want to look back with the same regret. Because IMHO, your husband, like my wife, isn't going to change.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

maincourse99 said:


> LD, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings with my post. It's just that we all empathize with you and want to help and see you happy. My wife cheated 5 years ago. I told her if it happened again, I Will definitely divorce you.
> 
> When I found the incriminating email and confronted her, she admitted it, but did I follow through right away and file for divorce? No. I begged, cried and pleaded with her to stop and stay. See, most all of us are weak. No shame in that, it's a horrible nightmare to go through.
> 
> ...


You dont have to apologize for calling it how you see it. I wasnt upset with you or anyone else here. Im more upset with myself for allowing myself to be treated like this. I totally get where everyone is coming from. I know what I need to do and I know that he probably wont ever be what I need him to be at this point. I have a screwed up family and dont really have anyone in my life...its just hard to have to walk away from the only family you know. I guess as long as I breath I will have hope.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

You will always have your children, and you're very attractive with a good heart. Really, there are some wonderful, caring men out there. You can do better, and have a great life.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> the notifications being off for his texts


This says it all!

And the anger and defensiveness when you bring it up confirm. Wholely.

You need no more proof. He continues to cheat. That is why he behaves like he has no remorse...because he has no remorse. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, by god, IT IS A DUCK! 

Miss Let Down, please...please...your eyes are open, start using what you see to your advantage and stop using it as your blindfold and your beating yourself stick.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

LetDown; I hate to see you like this. Why do I feel like that? You are obviously a wonderfull person, and I see so much of you in myself  And your husband must be a male clone of my wife. So there is so much in this thread that mirrors what I think from time to time.

I'll start with a small point; I usually have my phone on silence, notifications on silence or notifications off. I don't do it because I cheat, I do it because I find it somewhere between annoying and disturbing.
His defencesiveness about it could worry me, but it also could be him not being able to handle a conflict properly. Or maybe he just thinks "Oh boy, here we go again. Weekend spoiled"

Unlike some very strong beliefs in this forum, I actually believe that people are able to change. IF THEY WANT IT ENOUGH. But the fact is, you can't make him change, he has to want it or see the need for it for himself. You can't make him. That's why I suggested a light 180/detachment earlier on, I will "re-suggest" it to lead you in a direction towards some peace in your mind.

I was going to ask you WHY you love him so much, when he obviously doesn't meet your emotional needs, think about it. 

Here are some random thoughts of mine. Maybe your emotional needs has changed, you were not always aware of this strong need for reassurance and validation. His affair made this need appear or grow stronger. Maybe he hasn't adapted to this new reality. Maybe this is just who he is, would that be enough for you? Maybe you just need to accept him for who he is, look at yourself and decide if you can be happy with him as is, or if your emotional needs are important enough to look for alternate solutions.

And just to ad... if you think it's possible that he still cheats, you need to either let it go or switch to nuclear-evidence-finder mode to get some relief.

Remember... light 180 absolutely recommended for you. Take care of yourself, grow even stronger than you already are. Do it for you, you can do this, and things will be better.


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## DavidWYoung (Feb 3, 2012)

As pretty as you are, you deserve a lot better. Life is very short, enjoy each moment.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

cpacan said:


> LetDown; I hate to see you like this. Why do I feel like that? You are obviously a wonderfull person, and I see so much of you in myself  And your husband must be a male clone of my wife. So there is so much in this thread that mirrors what I think from time to time.
> 
> I'll start with a small point; I usually have my phone on silence, notifications on silence or notifications off. I don't do it because I cheat, I do it because I find it somewhere between annoying and disturbing.
> His defencesiveness about it could worry me, but it also could be him not being able to handle a conflict properly. Or maybe he just thinks "Oh boy, here we go again. Weekend spoiled"
> ...


Well I swore I wasnt going to shed another tear after I got off the phone with my H this morning but reading your post made me cry.

I think that maybe my emotional needs have changed, before all of this I knew that my husband loved me. I never doubted it at all and now I doubt it all the time. Probably because of the A's. And because he doesnt seem to really care about my concerns when they arise.

We had another argument on the phone this morning after he left for work. Basically he tells me he is exhausted from going through this and that its making him not care anymore. I told him that Im exhausted I feel like Im dying a slow death in my heart and he said that I need to decide what I want. I told him that obviously I wanted the marriage or I wouldnt be putting myself through all of this for the last several years.

He said he is changed, that I have changed and that if Im going to decide in 6 mos or a year that I cant do it anymore that we might as well end things now. I got upset at his suggestion and he said that there are only two options, end it or keeping going, which is right but I think something is wrong with me because it upsets me when he suggests ending it but its usually after I have mentioned it. 

He also told me that he had made mistakes and so had I and that he felt like we were making the most of it. At one point I told him that a woman knows, then got choked up and stopped. He said "a woman knows, a woman knows what?" He thought I was going to say that he was cheating but I told him that a woman knows when her husband isnt 100% invested in the relationship. He said he didnt see where he wasnt but that he's sick of the crap all the time.

I brought up his lack of desire for sex with me and he said this is why he has no desire because he's tired of doing this all the time. Why would he want to have sex with me. I get that, it makes total sense but I think there is more to it then that where the sex is concerned.

The day after Christmas n 2009 he called me and said he wanted to come home, that he wanted to start fresh and a have a better marriage. I told him I needed to think about it because I couldnt stand to beleive him and then go through this all over again. He got upset that I needed to think about it and instead of sticking to my guns I told him he could come home.

This morning I told him that I didnt understand why he came home because he came home with the idea that he was here and that should say enough about his love for me and that he wants to be here. I should just accept that for what it is. I told him had he told me that he was going to come home and never tell me he loves me, and never put his arms around me when I need him to comfort me that it would have been a deal breaker.

I have let so much go unsaid in our relationship and I dont feel like Im one of those women that is constantly nagging about things. I usually take care of things around the house myself and dont ask for much from him. If he is cleaning the garage I feel bad that he's doing it himself so I go help. I just dont think of myself as an overall ***** or a bad wife but Im starting to wonder if maybe I am pushing him away because Im always on guard? Or is that just a way for him to make me feel bad and take control again?

He told me something he has never told me before this morning. He has mentioned it in arguments but never really elaborated on it. He said that he will never forgive me for his kids knowing about what happened between us. During Hurricane Ike we were without power for 2 weeks. When it hit we didnt have power at all or a generator. The cell towers were messed up, we couldnt get a signal at our house. On Monday morning when he went back to work I drove up the road to get a signal and standing on the side of the road I checked his VM and there were two messages on his phone from the OW telling him she was worried about him, loved him, please let her know he was ok. I called him at work told him to go F himself and I was done with him. That afternoon he came to the house got some of his clothes and left us without power. (My neighbor let us run an extension cord from their generator to power a couple of things). That night I drove by her house with my kids to see if he was there and he was. He came out of the house, said we were done and he wanted a divorce, in front of the kids. The next morning he called me begging for forgiveness, he was getting a generator and wanted to come home he was sorry, blah blah blah. NOW he is telling me that he will never forgive me for bringing the kids past her house. I told him that he has to understand that during that time my world was falling apart and that I did things I wasnt proud of but that I was doing the best I could. It still hurts that he resents me for that. He's not the best father in the world, he loves the kids but he is hard on them.

I feel like Im rambling, ok I know I am.

One thing he said to me is "what do you want me to do", when I told him he doesnt do enough. I couldnt even tell him what I wanted except that I need more love from him so that I dont doubt it, hugs when I need comforting and for him not to get pissy when I ask him simple questions. You would think at this point I would have a list a mile long but I dont. I think they are pretty simple needs.

I keep hoping that there is going to be that one magic phrase I can say thats going to open his eyes and understand what I need. I know its not happening though! 

Thanks for letting me vent....sorry its so long!


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

DavidWYoung said:


> As pretty as you are, you deserve a lot better. Life is very short, enjoy each moment.


Thank you David!


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Your first post today...well, that pretty much settles it for me.

The man you're married to is a pay-checker. It's what I used to refer to people when I was in management a lifetime ago. It's the person who hates their job, hates their life and merely shows up at work with apathy and cares about nothing except getting their paycheck on Friday. They're the worst kind of employee you can ever have.

Unfortunately, you're married to a paychecker husband.

I'm sorry. I'm so sorry for the place that you are in. I don't say this lightly and please don't take it so: You...need to leave him. For yourself. For your children. You have sacrificed so much time already, why would you allow this to go on any longer?

Please. Take care of YOU. Now.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

He's mad that the kids know. Too damn bad.
I also used to think that the children should be protected from their parent's infidelity. And I still believe that young children should not be told. But guess what, he was unfaithful to the entire family, not just you.
He's ashamed his dirty little secret was exposed to the children. Perhaps rather than be upset with you, he should be upset with himself for ever doing that to his family. Your defensiveness is not what is pushing him away. If he were remoreseful, and out of the A, he would totally get it. Your defensiveness is reminding him that you know his secret and that is what is making him uncomfortable. 
Based on what you've said, I'm sorry to say it sounds like he is planning his departure. My advice is to go talk to an attorney very soon. Don't tell him. Find out exactly where you and the children stand financially because once he's out the door it will be too late.
And by the way, before I learned of my STBXH A, he used to say I had no reason to complain about anything and I should be satisfied that he comes home at night, because he knows a lot of men who don't. I wasn't.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> Your first post today...well, that pretty much settles it for me.
> 
> The man you're married to is a pay-checker. It's what I used to refer to people when I was in management a lifetime ago. It's the person who hates their job, hates their life and merely shows up at work with apathy and cares about nothing except getting their paycheck on Friday. They're the worst kind of employee you can ever have.
> 
> ...


Ive never heard the term paychecker but you are absolutely right. He hates everything in life. He hates his job although he is great at it. He complains that he deals with so much BS at work and then has to deal with BS at home too. The cup is always half empty, never half full.

I have thought all this time that he needs counseling. He wasnt like this til his dad died, he lost weight, cheated, put the weight back on, etc. Now his mom has passed (this year) and he and his brother hate each other. He has noone but us and his bff who lately he has started to dislike things about.

Maybe this is a rainbows and butterfly way to look at things but I try to stay positive about things. When things are bad I remember that as long as I have my family and they are healthy thats all that matters, the rest will work itsself out. Him.....well he hates the world and its never going to get better.

Can anyone suggest a good book that I can read to get my mind back? I need to get myself to a better place so I can be a better mother and be happy again!


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## cantdecide (Apr 9, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> Well I swore I wasnt going to shed another tear after I got off the phone with my H this morning but reading your post made me cry.
> 
> I think that maybe my emotional needs have changed, before all of this I knew that my husband loved me. I never doubted it at all and now I doubt it all the time. Probably because of the A's. And because he doesnt seem to really care about my concerns when they arise.
> 
> ...


I had a similar problem with my ex. I was fine talking about divorce if I brought it up. But, it infuriated me if she brought it up or talked about it. She cheated and I felt she had no right to tell me what she wanted anymore. To this day when she texts or emails me about something she is looking for (maybe at my house), I hardly ever respond. I don't care what she wants anymore and go out of my way not to give it to her. This is probably the same for you.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Tony Robbins - Awaken the Giant Within

I read it in 1996 when my ex-wife cheated on me and I had been trying for almost 2 years to reconcile. Yeah, just me trying. I found her in a bar with her arm around the OM.

I woke up.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> Your first post today...well, that pretty much settles it for me.
> 
> The man you're married to is a pay-checker. It's what I used to refer to people when I was in management a lifetime ago. It's the person who hates their job, hates their life and merely shows up at work with apathy and cares about nothing except getting their paycheck on Friday. They're the worst kind of employee you can ever have.
> 
> ...


I like the term & description. It seems to fit mr. Letdown to a tee.

The crapp about not forgiving you s/b the last straw. The very last one.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

walkonmars said:


> I like the term & description. It seems to fit mr. Letdown to a tee.
> 
> The crapp about not forgiving you s/b the last straw. The very last one.


He said "you will never forgive me for what I did and I'll never forgive you for that". WELL if he hadnt done what HE did then I wouldnt have been where I was.

I tried to protect my kids during that time but they did see me crying and sad a lot. I hate thinking that their lives are forever changed by this!


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> Can anyone suggest a good book that I can read to get my mind back? I need to get myself to a better place so I can be a better mother and be happy again!


Don't know which style or topic you like, but my favorites at the moment are:
The Mastery of Love, A Practical Guide to the Art of Relationship (A Toltec Wisdom Book) - the one with the quote: "If you own a dog, and you suddenly would like it to say meow, then maybe it's not a dog you should own"

The Power Of Now by Eckhard Tolle, the one about accepting lifesituation as it is, living in the present and making the best of it. About taking your power back.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Ah, yes...The Power of Now. I have it in book and CD.

Also, and this might be a bit out there for some, but if you have Netflix go watch "The Promise". Don't google it. Don't read reviews about it and don't ask what it's about. Just watch it and be forever changed.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> Ah, yes...The Power of Now. I have it in book and CD.
> 
> Also, and this might be a bit out there for some, but if you have Netflix go watch "The Promise". Don't google it. Don't read reviews about it and don't ask what it's about. Just watch it and be forever changed.


Is that a 70's movie or newer movie?

Sounds familiar but since I was warned not to google it...lol


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Newer movie. Within the last couple years. It is a documentary.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

What kind of books do you like?


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> What kind of books do you like?


I have a stack of books sitting next to me that I have read, or partly read. Nothing particular just something that will help me get my head out of my ass and put me in a better place.

Preferably something with little words so that I dont have to think too much. You know my brain is fried
, right?
:rofl:


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

OK. For a fried brain, just some romance that 'whisks you away' perhaps.

How about 'Outlander'? A big dose of Jamie Fraser, 6'4", auburn hair, sapphire blue eyes, sexy Scottish lilt, great intellect & very honorable.

A couple of hours with Jamie & your H will look like a real piker. Just what you need.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> OK. For a fried brain, just some romance that 'whisks you away' perhaps.
> 
> How about 'Outlander'? A big dose of Jamie Fraser, 6'4", auburn hair, sapphire blue eyes, sexy Scottish lilt, great intellect & very honorable.
> 
> A couple of hours with Jamie & your H will look like a real piker. Just what you need.


Oh is he the Cristian Grey type? LOL

I was thinking more on the lines of self help books but I"ll put that one on my list


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

There's a notorious spanking scene . But, seriously, no, Jamie is the real deal, not at all the current rage for dominance, etc. - just a real, grown-up man. He's regularly rated as the #1 romance hero that women would leave their husbands for. I didn't read romances at all until I hit my 50's & someone recommended this book. So, fwiw.

Other favorites:

- For the sheer beauty of language - anything by F. Scott Fitzgerald.

- For a good laugh - 'Catch 22' and 'A Confederacy of Dunces.'

- For history - 'Battle Cry of Freedom'; if you like WWII history, any accounting of a Pacific battle like Midway will keep you occupied because it's so hard to keep all the strategy straight.

- For complete idiocy with humor - Janet Evanovich

- For getting engrossed when you had no intention of getting engrossed - get online with The New Yorker; you'll wind up reading pretty much every piece.

- For creepy mystery - Ruth Rendell


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

And for self-help, something that everyone on TAM should read:

You Just Don't Understand: Women and Men in Conversation: Deborah Tannen: 9780060959623: Amazon.com: Books


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> And for self-help, something that everyone on TAM should read:
> 
> You Just Don't Understand: Women and Men in Conversation: Deborah Tannen: 9780060959623: Amazon.com: Books


Thanks Alte, for the suggestions!


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

Anyone that knows my situation can you tell me if His Needs, Her Needs or Not Just Friends would be a beneficial book to read? I read After the Affair a long time ago, maybe I should re-read it.

Im having a hard time with getting the bare minimum from WH. Just hard to act like I dont care and try to detach when my heart it hurting!


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> Anyone that knows my situation can you tell me if His Needs, Her Needs or Not Just Friends would be a beneficial book to read? I read After the Affair a long time ago, maybe I should re-read it.
> 
> Im having a hard time with getting the bare minimum from WH. Just hard to act like I dont care and try to detach when my heart it hurting!


Those are both very good books. I would get Surviving an Affair from Dr. Harley as well.


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## Hope Springs Eternal (Oct 6, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> Anyone that knows my situation can you tell me if His Needs, Her Needs or Not Just Friends would be a beneficial book to read? I read After the Affair a long time ago, maybe I should re-read it.
> 
> Im having a hard time with getting the bare minimum from WH. Just hard to act like I dont care and try to detach when my heart it hurting!


My wife and I are both currently reading NOT "Just Friends". It's a very good and revealing book. Amazingly, I brought it home from the library and my wife snapped it up and started reading. I think she didn't really "get" exactly what some of the terms were, didn't really understand that an emotional affair is an affair. I know, but she gets it now.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> Anyone that knows my situation can you tell me if His Needs, Her Needs or Not Just Friends would be a beneficial book to read? I read After the Affair a long time ago, maybe I should re-read it.
> 
> Im having a hard time with getting the bare minimum from WH. Just hard to act like I dont care and try to detach when my heart it hurting!


Based on my previous suggestions about light detachment for you, I would say that Harleys books put too much emphasis on the faults of the BS and how to work together as a couple assuming both parties want to reconsile.

If I were you, and I have been (maybe still am) at a similar place, remember, I would focus on books about improving yourself and finding alternative views at life in general to gain perspective.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

cpacan said:


> If I were you, and I have been (maybe still am) at a similar place, remember, I would focus on books about improving yourself and finding alternative views at life in general to gain perspective.


Any particular books you'd recommend?


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

cpacan said:


> Based on my previous suggestions about light detachment for you, I would say that Harleys books put too much emphasis on the faults of the BS and how to work together as a couple assuming both parties want to reconsile.


I gotta say, I literally read the first 2 chapters of one of the Harley books and put it down. Too much for me as the BS to read so soon after discovering her affair. Sorry folks...I don't recommend any of their books.

Regret bought a book a week after Dday called "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair". It put the blame and the heavy lifting work right where it needs to be. This book...9 months after Dday sits within reach of our couch. It is a short and "easy" read if and only IF your wayward is truly willing to work on the marriage.


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## thesunwillcomeout (Jun 25, 2012)

NJF will never hurt or do damage. It'll help you understand how these things happen and what healthy communication looks like. It may be frustrating to read about activities and exercises to do with your husband especially given he has a granite wall up. BUT, when and if you move on it'll help you see what a healthy relationship looks like and how to maintain a good foundation. There is a chapter in there for those who are moving on from the marriage and how to heal alone. 

The worst that can happen is your husband sneaks a read when you're not around!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

Will he read and genuinely participate in any of them? From what you've described, he mocks these requests pretty heavily. 

Not Just Friends was really good. I credit it a lot for what really snapped me back in to my marriage and realizing how much of this rested on my shoulders.


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## thesunwillcomeout (Jun 25, 2012)

TCSRedhead said:


> Not Just Friends was really good. I credit it a lot for what really snapped me back in to my marriage and realizing how much of this rested on my shoulders.


Same for my H
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

old timer said:


> Any particular books you'd recommend?


Link to previous post with my favorites 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...what-do-suggestions-please-4.html#post1259410


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> I gotta say, I literally read the first 2 chapters of one of the Harley books and put it down. Too much for me as the BS to read so soon after discovering her affair. Sorry folks...I don't recommend any of their books.
> 
> Regret bought a book a week after Dday called "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair". It put the blame and the heavy lifting work right where it needs to be. This book...9 months after Dday sits within reach of our couch. It is a short and "easy" read if and only IF your wayward is truly willing to work on the marrriage.


Agree. With some books sometimes it's a matter of timing but I don' like Harley's aproach to infidelity at all. More interesting is his "marriage building" concepts and books, His/her needs, Love busters and more... the rest of the books. Still, timing is key. You can't even consider your spuse "love language" when you are in a hell of pain.

NJF is great.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Yeah...HNHN was not at all what I needed 2 or 3 weeks post Dday. I could have cared less about her love language than cleaning up the kitty litter.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

old timer said:


> Any particular books you'd recommend?


That was going to be my question.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> Yeah...HNHN was not at all what I needed 2 or 3 weeks post Dday. I could have cared less about her love language than cleaning up the kitty litter.


HA!! Thats pretty bad, I hate kitty litter.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

cpacan said:


> Link to previous post with my favorites
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...what-do-suggestions-please-4.html#post1259410


Wrong link


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> Wrong link


Nope, but lets not fight about it 
My favorites were The Power Of Now and The Mastery Of Love.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

cpacan said:


> Nope, but lets not fight about it
> My favorites were The Power Of Now and The Mastery Of Love.


My bad, see Im not afraid to admit when Im wrong. Thats an admiring quality in a good wife, right? LOL I thought you were trying to link to another thread.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> My bad, see Im not afraid to admit when Im wrong. Thats an admiring quality in a good wife, right? LOL I thought you were trying to link to another thread.


You're absolutely right  - no hard feelings, just read the books


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

This week has been a rough one. I cant even look at my husband without "you're such a disgusting cheater" playing over and over in my head. Its been really hard to even try to enjoy any moment at all this week. Its almost like this has hit me harder then it has in a long time.

Monday and Tuesday we found both days with little contact in the evening , which is hard because I am home all day and I look forward to the companionship at night. In one of the arguements on Tuesday that I feel he is not committed to this relationship and it makes it really hard for me to move on especially when I have suspicions like the Power Ball numbers in my house that were found. He said that he asked the next day at work and that they were one of the guys he works with. He said it was the one that is a very metrosexual and I have heard alot about him. Guess it could have been his writing BUT why the numbers that are significant to WH and OW? I dont buy it but there is that little bit of possibility that he isnt lying. We talked about ending things because I told him I couldnt do this anymore, I feel like Im dying a slow painful death. He said if we are going to end it we need to start now because he doesnt want me in 6 mos or a year telling him Im done, why not do it now?! (still trying to figure out why it matters when?)

Wednesday morning I woke up from a partial nights sleep because I couldnt stop thinking and decided I was going to lay it out. I told him that I couldnt keep investing in this relationship without knowing 100% where he stands. He is wishy washy and leaves me to fill in the blanks ALOT of the time and Im tired of it. I told him that I would work hard at letting the cheating go and not stress myself everyday over, that I know I cant stop him but if I find out again our marriage will be over in a second!! AND I MEAN THAT!! (I would be here everyday making ya'll miserable but I couldnt do it alone, I couldnt do it before).

His response was "lets do it, lets turn over a new leaf" That was it...nothing else!!

Thursday was long, didnt know how it was going to be when he got home or if we would even be talking to be honest. He texted me before he left working asking if I would return a shirt for him for a different size so I did that and got home right before he did, we talked about a few things. I, according to him, was being ****y. Thats key for not being sweet and lathering him with affection and attention and acting like I dont have much to say to him.

Today he drove his motorcycle to work so I went to check his truck. I found a roll of paper towels with the same print that the numbers were written on. It was a newer roll (no torn piece). So that just proves NOTHING! It could have been from someone at work (as they most likely use the same paper towels in the breakroom that he had in his truck) OR it was her but the day after I found the numbers I checked his truck and there were no papertowels in there.

I also found $70 cash rolled up in the ash tray where he keeps his receipts for purchases on the company CC. He found out a long time ago that I was checking his wallet so he doesnt keep cash in there anymore. He never has cash anyway unless he does a side job for someone and they slip him money. I have asked why he's so sneaky with money before and he says its not sneaky. Most of the time he has money and I dont know I usually end up finding out about it becauase he will want to buy something and then say he has money for it.

Its making me sick thinking about that cash being in there and wondering what he's going to do with it, especially since its so close to Xmas. Chances are that he'll spend it on himself because he IS that selfish but he could also spend it on OW. I started to take it out of the truck and leave it unlocked so he would think he forgot to lock it and someone stole it but I didnt. 

So....here is it the weekend and Im not even excited about it because I feel so sure that he's cheating AGAIN/STILL. Those numbers have really messed me up!!


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I'm sorry to hear it's been so cr*ppy this week. You deserve some peace of mind after all you've been through. It just doesn't seem like your H can give that to you.

It sounds to me like you're mentally gearing yourself up for a decision. It may take a while to get there, but I feel that you're preparing the way for yourself. You sound like a wonderful person who deserves to have a happy, peaceful life. I think you will get there.

You are allowed to give yourself a break from the mental torture. Find a closet to go in and scream. Blast some music and dance. Call your very best friend in the world and laugh until you wheeze.

Just take a break.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I'm sorry to hear it's been so cr*ppy this week. You deserve some peace of mind after all you've been through. It just doesn't seem like your H can give that to you.
> 
> It sounds to me like you're mentally gearing yourself up for a decision. It may take a while to get there, but I feel that you're preparing the way for yourself. You sound like a wonderful person who deserves to have a happy, peaceful life. I think you will get there.
> 
> ...


Financially I know we cant split. I could never provide for my children on the income I am making now. He makes decent money but its not great money and he wouldnt be able to provide for himself AND us. I know that I shouldnt even care about what he has to do but Im saying that because I know he WONT leave willingly if it comes to that and there is probably no way for us to get rid of our house. I just hate him sometimes that I have to think about all of this, that he has put us in this situation. Of course he would blame me because I dont bring home a bigger paycheck then him, its always my fault, right?!


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> ... its always my fault, right?!


No, most likely it's never your fault.


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## Hope Springs Eternal (Oct 6, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> ...its always my fault, right?!


I don't know if I should be saying this, but I'm beginning to really dislike your husband.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> No, most likely it's never your fault.


The only thing I am guilty of is loving a person that doesnt care that he hurt me and isnt doing all he can to make it better.

I know its not my fault.....but it is in husbands eyes!


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You wear your heart on your sleeve & your H takes advantage of that. He can rely on your affection and love and he knows it. He's secure in it. He sounds like he's just selfish enough, just unempathetic enough to not really care if you have the same emotional security in your life. You are very unlucky in love in this regard, I think.

If you can try to guard your heart by implementing a soft 180, that might help. Put on some headphones with some good music when your H is home. Create some better noise in your head.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

LetDownNTX

All I can say is that this is no way for anyone to live and I am so sorry you are going through this.


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## totallyunexpected (Nov 21, 2012)

LetDown, where are you? I'm concerned. Please give us an update.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

Im still around, always spreading great advice around the board that i cant take myself..LOL

I dont know what the hell is wrong with me. Why cant I be mad instead of feeling so down and hurt?

Last week was good, we got along really well and I was feeling better about things. Since Saturday its been the pits. Saturday and Sunday we did nothing together except sit around the house. Im home all day everyday so on the weekends I like to get out. His excuse is that money is tight so he'd rather stay home then leave the house. But then he stays home and is mopey and miserable and it makes me feel bad. Monday and Tuesday he came home relatively early from work which I enjoy but he was distant. Things have just been rough this week.

Last night he misread my mood when he got home and assumed I was pissed at him for not responding to my texts earlier in the day but it wasnt about that. I wasnt really pissed, just a little ill that he ignored me. Just makes me feel like Im not on his priority list.

This morning all hell broke loose. I made a stupid comment that if he was still seeing her I'd kill both of them for putting me through all of this. I knew it was stupid as soon as it came out of my mouth but I was upset. Later I asked him why he's so negative and hateful and he told me that there were guns in the closet and showed me how to use it since Im going to "kill" him. I told him that I wasnt and that I dont want anything to happen to him I was just mad thinking that the reason he treats me like garbage at times is because he is still messing with her. He said it almost makes him want to go mess with her so I will kill him. WTF!?!? I told him if he hated his life that much maybe he should just pull the trigger.

All those are terrible things to say and I hate myself for saying them but he is so hateful and negative that I dont even know how to deal with him anymore. He told me he is unhappy, duh! He hates being broke, hates that he didnt get to spend his bonus check on himself and gave it to me for the kids Christmas (wont let that one go at all and it was a month ago), he hates himself cause he says hes fat but he eats making himself fatter, its a vicious cycle.

I know that what we have been through the last 3 years has been hard for him too because its always up and down but I think he is blaming all of his unhappiness on ME and not on what it really is. I tried to tell him that if he had handled things differently when he came home and showed compassion for what Im dealing with I would be different and maybe he wouldnt hate me so much.

He says he's unhappy but yet he says he loves me. I told him to just tell me if he wants to end things because I cant keep going like this. Its like dying a slow death wondering if you even matter this man that you've loved all your life. He wont tell me he wants to end things, but I think he blames me for everything and its not my fault!

I think he's depressed for a number of reasons and he wont seek help, its easier to blame me for everything. I cant understand why he would say he loves me yet act like Im the reason he isnt happy. One minute he acts like he loves me the next he looks at me like he hates my guts. He said at this point that he doesnt care if he has to live under a bridge (this is him being as negative as possible because he feels broke and miserable). 

I just feel so crappy right now, Christmas has always been my favorite time of year and here I am again feeling like my life is falling apart. Just want it all to stop!!


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

so sorry for you feeling this way, especially this time of year. its a hard time for me as well.
the one thing that really strikes me in your post above is that your husband "hates" that he didnt get to spend his bonus on himself. instead of using it for yalls kids?
really?
id love to take my bonus money and spend it woo hoo... (i get maybe 2-3 sizeable bonuses per year, like 3-4K), and the money i make working side jobs on weekends, another 4-8k per year...but i dont. my kids. thats ALL i use it for. that and house repair/improvements. and it makes me feel like a good daddy, like a dad that puts his kids ahead of himself. like a dad that puts his family ahead of himself. isnt that what a dad is supposed to do?
how can someone HATE anything that benefits their children or makes them happy?
i dont really know how you can tolerate such selfishness. especially after what has happened between you and your husband (i know a bit from your posts).
but i really hope you can get to feeling better.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

It sounds like he feels the way you do - that he loves you but is unhappy. You both sound like you feel like you're stuck because of your emotions.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

naga75 said:


> so sorry for you feeling this way, especially this time of year. its a hard time for me as well.
> the one thing that really strikes me in your post above is that your husband "hates" that he didnt get to spend his bonus on himself. instead of using it for yalls kids?
> really?
> id love to take my bonus money and spend it woo hoo... (i get maybe 2-3 sizeable bonuses per year, like 3-4K), and the money i make working side jobs on weekends, another 4-8k per year...but i dont. my kids. thats ALL i use it for. that and house repair/improvements. and it makes me feel like a good daddy, like a dad that puts his kids ahead of himself. like a dad that puts his family ahead of himself. isnt that what a dad is supposed to do?
> ...


Naga, he is a very selfish person. I dont understand it at all. He's always been that way. He tells me to buy what I want and when I want but I usually dont buy for myself I buy for the kids or save it for family stuff. Part of that selfishness over the bonus is that if I was making better money then we wouldnt need his bonus. He made a comment that he works hard and puts up with alot of crap and doesnt always get it because its based on others performance as well so when he gets it he feels like he earned it. Im not justifying it at all, just telling you what he says. I think its selfish myself and dont understand it! Im not a materialistic person at all. I dont have a collection of shoes, or purses or anything that women typically have. Im happy with the things I have and only get what I need, with an occassional want.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> It sounds like he feels the way you do - that he loves you but is unhappy. You both sound like you feel like you're stuck because of your emotions.


I dont want to be stuck with anyone that doesnt want to be with me. If he feels stuck then he needs to go to counseling to make things better for us (IC or MC) or leave. I cant take much more of the hurt! He wants me to be a person he wants to be with all the time, happy, not emotional, etc yet he does nothing to help make me be that type of person. Who can be happy all the time when they have a spouse that puts them at the bottom of their priority list. And honestly, I dont ask for that much!


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

he did earn it, im sure. 
but its like...your responsibility as the father/leader/papa bear is to "earn it" for your family.
i will usually take a LITTLE of the money (like a hundred bucks or so), and buy myself a new hat or piece of horse tack, something just for me. but im not all like I EARNED THIS MONEY AND POOF LOOK AT MY NEW $2000.00 WATCH.
maybe you could discuss with him something like that.
hey you did work hard for this, so why not find something that you really want that you dont have or normally wouldnt buy, and buy it for yourself. within reason.
his responsibility is to his family and his children, and if that means he doesnt get a fancy expensive new toy, then so be it.
i would starve myself to feed my kids if thats what i had to do. there is no room for selfishness WHATSOEVER as a parent.
so i really cant explain to you why he would be that way...its completely foreign to my concept.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

naga75 said:


> he did earn it, im sure.
> but its like...your responsibility as the father/leader/papa bear is to "earn it" for your family.
> i will usually take a LITTLE of the money (like a hundred bucks or so), and buy myself a new hat or piece of horse tack, something just for me. but im not all like I EARNED THIS MONEY AND POOF LOOK AT MY NEW $2000.00 WATCH.
> maybe you could discuss with him something like that.
> ...


Thats the way I thought it was supposed to be too!


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> I dont want to be stuck with anyone that doesnt want to be with me. If he feels stuck then he needs to go to counseling to make things better for us (IC or MC) or leave. I cant take much more of the hurt! He wants me to be a person he wants to be with all the time, happy, not emotional, etc yet he does nothing to help make me be that type of person. Who can be happy all the time when they have a spouse that puts them at the bottom of their priority list. And honestly, I dont ask for that much!


I know you don't want to be stuck - I guess I'm saying that I think he actually does want to be with you, but he's a selfish person in terms of actually caring about someone else's happiness.

Whenever my H started to lecture me in an argument, he would say, "It's not my job to make you happy. Only you can make you happy." And this would shut me up, which was his goal, I think, until I figured out exactly what bothered me about this little gem, - which was that yes, indeed, he couldn't assume the job of ensuring my happiness as a human being, but as my H, he could damn well have the decency to not actively do things that he knew would make me unhappy.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I think, until I figured out exactly what bothered me about this little gem, - which was that yes, indeed, he couldn't assume the job of ensuring my happiness as a human being, but as my H, he could damn well have the decency to not actively do things that he knew would make me unhappy.


Truer words have not been spoken. 

I dont intentionally do things that I know are going to upset him. Why cant he not do things that he knows will upset me. 
Matter of fact I deal with most everything so he doesnt have to. All he has to do is go to work and drop off our youngest at school in the mornings.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> he told me that there were guns in the closet and showed me how to use it since Im going to "kill" him.


My wife already handles a gun pretty well.

I ain't pushing it.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

old timer said:


> My wife already handles a gun pretty well.
> 
> I ain't pushing it.


He knows that I know how to use a gun too, that was his way of being a smarta$$, daring me and letting me know that he doesnt care if I do. (so he says)


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> He knows that I know how to use a gun too, that was his way of being a smarta$$, daring me and letting me know that he doesnt care if I do. (so he says)


Being a very selfish person myself, I can assure you he didn't want you to shoot him. An attempt to garner sympathy on his part, imo


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

The word of the day (week, month, decade....) seems to be 'selfish.'

When my H was younger and always doing things that at best made my life hard, he would make the declaration about happiness above & then proceed to do what he wanted, telling me that he had simply resigned himself to the 'fact' that I was a naturally unhappy person. The fact was that whenever he wanted to do something & life, family, spouse, etc. intervened in any way to force him to compromise, he would insist that he had the right to go ahead anyway. It was his right as an individual, he would say, to make whatever decisions he wanted. (I pleaded, got angry etc., in vain, trying to find compromises that wouldn't leave me in a puddle on the floor). It was my right as an individual, I would hear, to be unhappy about these things. Until I realized it was my right to leave, things didn't really improve. Of course, we both had our issues, but the unbridled, aggressive pursuit of self-interest can't work in a marriage, imo, especially in a marriage where there are children.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> The word of the day (week, month, decade....) seems to be 'selfish.'


We are all selfish to some extent. It's human nature - w/o some selfishness, we couldn't survive.

The ability to put aside our own selfishness for the benefit of others is the key.


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