# Not sure what is going on



## confused wtf (Mar 7, 2013)

So basically I got sick laid in bed all day for a couple days, didn't miss work cause it was over the weekend. I went back to work and noticed my wife wouldn't kiss me good bye or hello anymore and stopped saying she loved me when she hung up the phone. I asked her the next weekend after work was over, what was going on? She said she is going to leave me and isn't in love with me anymore... but she said she still loves me. Confused and stunned, I realized this was serious. We talked calmly about it for a good couple hours. I had no idea why she still wanted to... considering 3 weeks earlier she wrote me a letter how we should have another child and what the benefits were. For the past couple months we were having great sex, it wasn't stale at all as it has been at times in our 8 year marriage. We have a daughter who is 6. Prior to Christmas, we got in an argument in which she physically attacked me, as I tried to leave. I defended myself and punched her in the stomach back, not hard, but just to back her off. She still came at me. The argument was over a picture of a model from a movie that I saw and was looking up on the internet 6 months previously. She never let me live it down. I looked at about 3-4 pictures of her, with her modeling bikinis and wearing regular clothes. I looked at all the actors and actressses of that movie, but that one stood out for her. I was just curious as to who they were.. never meaning to drool over anybody or anyone in the pictures. I never thought about it again until she saw my history and brought it up to me. She argued with me about it to the point of yelling at each other. I promised I wouldn't look at any photos like that again and haven't. She brought it up again and was relentless about it, prior to Christmas, and hit me twice, hard, before I struck back. I left immediately as I was trying to leave previously but she got in my way and physically pushed me. After I hit her back, I left and came back at midnight, after 5 jack n cokes. We basically got it back together for Christmas and our daughter... things seemed normal and were going good, then my mom passed. We were still being loving to each other and she wrote how we should have another child. We play wrestled together... everything seemed good, even though I was going through tough times with my Mom passing. We carried on having great sex and times out, dinner, movies, etc. A month after my mom passes, she lays this on me. 

SHe left for her mom's, mutually, after talking about it for a weekend. She couldn't stay there, she said she won't let our daughter live there. She came back, we end up having sex and I am trying to work it out sincerely and openly. I am not ignoring her but she is more less ignoring me regardless, except for sex at night and being rather pleasant but nothing too loving during any other times. Often she brings up how she is leaving. I once thought she was doing it because she loved the make up sex so much, but I don't think that at all anymore. She is serious. But she's confused. I don't know much else to do about what I can do for her. She has been very strict on my marriage and I did change alot for her. I let her watch whatever she wants on tv, I let her go where she wants , which she doesn't go much, but when its mutual if she wants to do something I have no problem with it. I am very easy going and also capable of planning my own fun times, so there's a good mix. I am loving and often play with her... Currently she is having a good relationship with me at home except for this looming over head, which she throws at me every once in awhile. She has yet to give me kisses good bye or hello, but is nice and pleasant regardless when coming home. We still do things as a family. But this doesn't seem enough for her, and really I don't know what is anymore. I am confused that she would still say she is going to leave, but she can't, financially at least. I don't know why she would intend to do it, we can have a good life together and we can constantly try to repair the marriage, but she doesn't seem like she wants to try. Even though things aren't bad, she refrains from making them great... What the hell is going on here??? Please help. She's 29 I'm 33.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

She probably has a guy on the side.

You guys have a very dysfunctional relationship - slapping each other around all the time??? Why do either of you put up with that? I think the two of you DO need to separate. And get anger management while you're at it. Your daughter is going to grow up thinking this is normal. Do you really want that??


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## confused wtf (Mar 7, 2013)

I checked on it, I told her openly tell me if she had somebody else and I wouldn't be upset, which I wouldn't, but she said no. I don't see where she would have time to either. I check her phone and facebook and computer, nothing suspicious. She said she just needs to leave and wants to fall in love with me agian. I don't know how that is possible if she is not there and scars our daughter by having a broken home for some time.

We don't slap each other around all the time. There have been 3 incidents in 8 years where she hit me and I defended myself, she was always the agressor. 99% of the time I thought we were very happy. She has a temper issue and self image issues, that I haven't been able to get her over with. I am very mild mannered and talk out disagreements until she begins raising her voice, which in turn causes me to. That happened every few months the past 6 months. I thought it could be overlooked considering all the good, and workk on not arguing or yelling at each other at all... While I forgive and forget for her transgressions she hasn't on mine, even though I have fixed them. Is this normal? Is she good for me? Or am I bad for her? I am very intelligent and willing to do what she wants of me and have been with all arguments/disagreements she has had with me, and vice versa. I don't think there is much more to argue about as long as someone doesn't do something stupid that we already agreed not to do, or she brings up something done in the past that really, I don't think are grounds for separation. I honestly think the worst arguments are a result of her anger, which is unjustified... because she takes things such as a picture of a girl on the internet that I looked at to yell at me terribly, even after apologizing, and even 6 months later. We don't drink. One difference is that she believes in God but I have stopped, but I thought we worked around that. That we never argue about. I think we could still make it if she wants to.


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## confused wtf (Mar 7, 2013)

All this happened when we moved to a better neighborhood last year. She used to be the prettiest girl around, but now there is competition in the new neighborhood. I don't care but I suspect she does. She started losing weight... but I never faulted her for her looks and she is still very attractive and getting more attractive, but nonethless I suspect her insecurity causes alot of her grief and yelling to me. I don't know how to fix that though.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Slapping anyone around even once is too much.

You are lying down and just taking whatever she decides to dish out to you. My guess is, if on the off chance she isn't cheating, that she's tired of you rolling over and exposing your belly every time she goes off on you.

Splitting up a dysfunctional relationship isn't 'breaking' your home. It's already broken.


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## MrsPotter (Mar 7, 2013)

Sorry to hear about your situation. It seems as though you may need to put your foot down and not allow her to treat you so vainly. I know you love her, but working it is fine, just do not stand for bad treatment. It's sad but sometimes doing the opposite makes people understand your position. Have you began to plan your position when it comes to the split? As far as seeking custody of your child, etc?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Red flags for cheating:
- lost weight
- sex suddenly got better
- gave you the ILYBNILWY speech
- is overly jealous, accuses you of cheating or cheating-like behaviour (looking at women online)
- does not show physical affection such as kissing


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## confused wtf (Mar 7, 2013)

MrsPotter said:


> Sorry to hear about your situation. It seems as though you may need to put your foot down and not allow her to treat you so vainly. I know you love her, but working it is fine, just do not stand for bad treatment. It's sad but sometimes doing the opposite makes people understand your position. Have you began to plan your position when it comes to the split? As far as seeking custody of your child, etc?



I really do put my foot down on a lot of things. Don't get me wrong I am not a pushover and she does not take advantage of me. She has strong beliefs of marriage that have to do with her insecurities and I have done alot to respect those beliefs. She doesn't want cable tv because she would freak out if a victorias secret commercial came on. I understand. She is bulemic. As her husband I would fight for her on that, she does have a point about things like that. Nonetheless though, I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong aside from a few instances like that? Maybe I am blind to her wronging me, but why would she be threatening to leave me then and not vice versa? She is taking our daughter, there's no way around it. That's the norm. SHe told me just a few days ago that she wants to work at it though. I talk to her today and she is still leaving, after we had great sex yesterday. Not sure how working at it couples with leaving. Any idea?


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Hope is on the mark. Keep looking. There's someone else.


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## confused wtf (Mar 7, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> Red flags for cheating:
> - lost weight
> - sex suddenly got better
> - gave you the ILYBNILWY speech
> ...


I suspect she is looking. The better sex is due to our odd position of he seeking to be leaving, it adds spice to it. She was always overly jealous, its her nature... because of her insecurity. Can't chalk that up to cheating. She could be looking... but denies that.


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## confused wtf (Mar 7, 2013)

anchorwatch said:


> Keep looking. There's someone else.


For me or her? This is true.. but nonetheless I have a daughter. It's terrible... really. She loves us both and needs us both.


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## confused wtf (Mar 7, 2013)

Should I track her gps to verify she is cheating?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

You could do that. Have a look at the newbie link in my signature. There's also an evidence gathering thread in the CWI forum. Ways of gathering evidence include keylogger on the computer, looking at cell phone/cell phone records, spyware on cell phone, looking at internet history, VAR in the house or car, looking at bank account and credit card statements. You want to do this surreptitiously, though, so she doesn't know and go farther underground.

Just DO NOT confront her if you find something until you know EVERYTHING. Check back here first.


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## confused wtf (Mar 7, 2013)

Can we assume for now that she is not cheating on me? I have looked into this extensively. There is no window, with her work schedule and when she comes home. BUt nonetheless I'll grant possibility and will continue to pursue that she may be. If she isn't though, is there any other explanation?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

confused wtf said:


> Can we assume for now that she is not cheating on me? I have looked into this extensively. There is no window, with her work schedule and when she comes home. BUt nonetheless I'll grant possibility and will continue to pursue that she may be. If she isn't though, is there any other explanation?


What all have you already investigated?

One problem with investigating is that you CAN find out she IS cheating, but you CANNOT find out she ISN'T.

However, I'd be exhausting every avenue before I assumed she wasn't. otherwise it's called 'rugsweeping'


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## confused wtf (Mar 7, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> What all have you already investigated?
> 
> One problem with investigating is that you CAN find out she IS cheating, but you CANNOT find out she ISN'T.
> 
> However, I'd be exhausting every avenue before I assumed she wasn't. otherwise it's called 'rugsweeping'


I agree with you, however I am also seeking other possible reasons to what is going on here.


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## SaltInWound (Jan 2, 2013)

confused wtf said:


> I agree with you, however I am also seeking other possible reasons to what is going on here.


Please try not to be in denial. Follow the advice here and start looking for the OM. If a person wants to cheat, they will find time.


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## confused wtf (Mar 7, 2013)

Thanks for your guys help. My only concern is if its not cheating. I mean, that's an easy answer in your position. Is it the answer? Maybe. Is there another answer? ??


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

You sounds like a smart guy - there's probably a whole list we could come up with of what it *MIGHT* be, and so could you. The only reason you're asking is because you don't want it to be cheating. Which is fine, but don't let that 'want' blind you. BS's who are looking for other reasons are actually looking for a way to rugsweep it.


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## confused wtf (Mar 7, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> You sounds like a smart guy - there's probably a whole list we could come up with of what it *MIGHT* be, and so could you. The only reason you're asking is because you don't want it to be cheating. Which is fine, but don't let that 'want' blind you. BS's who are looking for other reasons are actually looking for a way to rugsweep it.


Actually I have no other reason aside from that. I mean, I want to know if it is cheating, really. She said she has to work late so I'm going to spy on her tonight. This occurs semi regularly so I am going to check up on it. I will let you know what I find. She will be completely stunned because I have to watch our daughter and have never gotten a babysitter on my own. Regardless. What are the other reasons it could be? I think its completely baffling. I think she may be having a mid life crisis that she may not even understand though. If that is the case, nobody will understand?


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

If it's something else then....

Has she always been erratic like this is the relationship or is this something new?

Did physical violence exist in her past? What type of childhood did she have?

Has something changed in her life or your's that has stressed the situation recently? 

What about you? Have you been supportive and involved in the marriage as a husband should?

How old are you both? How long are you married? First marriage?


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## SaltInWound (Jan 2, 2013)

confused wtf said:


> Actually I have no other reason aside from that. I mean, I want to know if it is cheating, really. She said she has to work late so I'm going to spy on her tonight. This occurs semi regularly so I am going to check up on it. I will let you know what I find. She will be completely stunned because I have to watch our daughter and have never gotten a babysitter on my own. Regardless. What are the other reasons it could be? I think its completely baffling. I think she may be having a mid life crisis that she may not even understand though. If that is the case, nobody will understand?


Having to work late is a pretty standard excuse to find time to cheat without making the BS overly suspicious, but when it starts happening more often, it is a red flag.  

A midlife crisis = affair.

You don't need a babysitter to check up on her. Put the kid in the car and go where you need to go.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

If your going to follow her be discrete. 

Then do the following to eliminate the existence of an OM.

Put a keylogger on any computer that she uses

Put a spy wear with gps on her cell phone

Put a VAR in her car and the house

Check her email, chat and FB histories

Get your carrier's phone logs for calls and text to numbers and verify who she is in contact with.


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## confused wtf (Mar 7, 2013)

anchorwatch said:


> If it's something else then....
> 
> Has she always been erratic like this is the relationship or is this something new?
> 
> ...


It's been erratic at times, mostly stable.. She has bad periodds. She says she was raped at 13, but I think she was partly willing at that age... but that's rape nonetheless in her mind and my mind. 

She did get a new job and a new place to live, we are moving up in life and she has acted differently since we moved. She got a job a little while after.

Her childhood has been good thanks to her grandmother, who became her mom after her birth mom was deemed unfit to care for her. Her grandmother did the right thing and raised her. No known physical violence in the past. I believe I am involved as I should be not sure where that would be lacking. She says I lack emotion and passion, which I do because I'm rather introverted and a thinker which is my demeanor that I can't change, but I am passionate in bed... she is somewhat the opposite, more passionate outside of bed less passionate in bed, but not to a degree of concern. She gets the job done well enough with moments of greatness periodically and consistently.

I have been supportive but of course after 8 years I am not the best husband in the world but am not the worst. Work takes its toll and I have always had fun with her on the weekends worst case.. and mostly they are good weekends or just typical. 



I am 33 she is 29, married 8 years. I was 25 and she was 21 when we married. Yes young. She did bring up how she missed her early 20's, and partying. At that time I told her the concern of her getting married young and she said she didn't want to do that. She doesn't seem like she still wants to do that but did have a night out with the girls a week ago, which I think she should, no matter what our marriage condition is.


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## confused wtf (Mar 7, 2013)

anchorwatch said:


> If your going to follow her be discrete.
> 
> Then do the following to eliminate the existence of an OM.
> 
> ...


What if I get caught tonight? I'm worried about that. But I'd be worried only if she's innocent.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

confused wtf said:


> What if I get caught tonight? I'm worried about that. But I'd be worried only if she's innocent.


Find out what you can tonight or it will drive you nuts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

You don't have a MLC at 29.

Why would you get caught? If you see her car in the parking lot you'll know she's where she said she would be. Again, though, that still doesn't confirm she ISN'T cheating.


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## SaltInWound (Jan 2, 2013)

confused wtf said:


> I was 25 and she was 21 when we married. Yes young. *She did bring up how she missed her early 20's, and partying.* At that time I told her the concern of her getting married young and she said she didn't want to do that. She doesn't seem like she still wants to do that but did have *a night out with the girls a week ago*, which I think she should, no matter what our marriage condition is.


YIKES! 

You would never want an unhappy woman or woman in a troubled marriage participating in GNO. She has already stated how she missed being young and experiencing the party scene.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Then she didn't have a normal upbringing. Her parents were deemed unfit and absent from her life. She was brought up by extended family. She had been exposed to sexual abuse at a young age. She feels she married young and missed her youth. She's dissatisfied with her life as it is. All RED FLAGS!!! But not excuses for bad behavior. 

Have you suggested a individual or marital counseling yet? It's needed.


If she did have contact with someone where would it be? 

At work? With her friends? GNO?

What kind of job?


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## confused wtf (Mar 7, 2013)

Ok she was where she was supposed to be at work. She saw me and I told her flat out what I was doing. Came home and had great sex. She alluded to wanting me to try to win her over again. I don't understand this is all very hard for me to attempt to do when I feel I have bended over backwards for a lot of things, although I too have wronged her as well. She brought up counseling last night. The last time we went to counseling was over this internet picture and when my boss took me to tilted kilt for lunch.. She was upset that I didn't refuse. I mean really upset, like our world was ending upset. The counselor had us reconcile and he downplayed the extremity of the problem, which I thought he should have because I saw it as her making a mountain out of a mole hill. But we agreed to move on and that nothing like that would happen again, which it hasn't.. her terms were she would not hold me to fault against it. However she did, multiple times, leading to the pre christmas argument. I told her counseling is BS.. I was resistant to it to begin with and why go if she's not going to do what they advise. Anyways she wants to go again it seems but wants me to set it up. I guess I can but really don't want to because it was absolutely useless to me the one time we went. Maybe she can benefit from it because perhaps she needs someone to repeat my thoughts for me from another mouth. Whatever. This is ridiculous. The whole thing is ridiculous. 

I really don't think she is cheating on me. There is no time for her to do this. I go through her facebook and nothing, her phone logs, nothing. I think she wants me to bend over backwards for her. I think she understands in some part of her that all the arguments are her fault... Not what led to the argument but her taking it to extremes, including this threat to leave. I kissed her goodbye tonight, she liked it. But I really don't know what I should do. I am angry with her as well but hold it inside, because it's not going to help now if I go out and see other girls and do whatever I want. I don't know what to do or what her problem is, but I think she's rather neurotic. She wants to go out Saturday, she says she misses her 20's life. She's hanging out with 22 year old girls who she used to work at a restuarant with. Again, she's 29. This would be the 2nd or 3rd time that she did this in the past 6 months. What should I tell her? I dont' mind if she goes if she's happy with me but this just means I think she's looking around for guys and so far I think she is trying half heartedly, if that, or not really trying at all. She doesn't have time to cheat on me like I said... But still that possibility is there, although she said she didn't in the most truthful manner I ever saw her say the truth to me. In any case, I want to review the not yet cheating on me aspect and what is going on. She wants to be free, but I never held her back until she held me back. I used to want to go out every so often with the guys but she didn't like that, because she didn't trust my friends. I changed that for her.. but I did I told her she could go out, but she didn't have anyone to go out with. Now she doesn't care if I go out and has people to go out with. The thing is, we're getting too old for that stuff and we have a daughter now. I think I'm going to write an email to her. What should I say?


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## SaltInWound (Jan 2, 2013)

There are red flags all over the place and you see them. Place your boundaries. Tell her what you won't accept in this relationship. 

You told her why you were there last night and that was a mistake. If she is up to no good, she will be more careful from now on. 

She has time to cheat. She had time last night. She will have all night at GNO to do whatever she desires with as many guys as she wants. You know this. I think you are just in denial that she will go through with it. 

Aside from last night, when was the last time you had sex and could describe it as "great sex"? Perhaps last night was a way to distract your suspicions. You already said you think she is neurotic. 

Cheaters lie. You can't go by sincerity and the look on her face to assume she is telling the truth. Some of us on this board have been married decades and have been fooled. 

I wish you the best of luck, but you need to follow the advice already given. If you finish your investigation and find she has done nothing wrong, then you have your answer, but sitting around trying to convince yourself she has done nothing wrong is only giving her more time to dabble in the lifestyle she is telling you she prefers.


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## confused wtf (Mar 7, 2013)

Well she says she doesn't want to see other guys. I told her flat out I know you are. But I don't. The last time we had great sex before last night was two nights earlier. Really. Sex has always been regular aside from a drought of a week or 2 at most during rough times previously.

But if I finish my investigation and find she has done nothing wrong, then I have no answer. Seriously if she cheated at least I have some type of closure... I almost want to find her cheating at this point so I can understand, because not understanding is wrecking my brain. 

What advice was given if she isn't cheating? I can put my foot down, but she wants me to fight for her. Its an odd position. After a couple of weeks of going well, I asked if she wanted to go on a Disney Cruise, she said now is not the right time, she's still planning on leaving. Here we are having a semi normal relationship and its not working. I have to go the extra mile... but I again don't know why I should other than to please her. If I do will this stop? Maybe, but it may get worse?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

As you describe things, your wife has issues. Jealous over a Victoria Secret ad on TV? Hitting you and stopping you from leaving? Bulimia? Has she gone through any individual counseling? 

I don't know if your wife is cheating or not, but there's significant problems in your relationship. They're not going to simply vanish with a separation. They may fade a bit, but when you get back together, they'll just come back. The two of you need to get some new tools to address them, because your current tools and skills aren't working. Counseling, books, something...

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## confused wtf (Mar 7, 2013)

PBear said:


> As you describe things, your wife has issues. Jealous over a Victoria Secret ad on TV? Hitting you and stopping you from leaving? Bulimia? Has she gone through any individual counseling?
> 
> I don't know if your wife is cheating or not, but there's significant problems in your relationship. They're not going to simply vanish with a separation. They may fade a bit, but when you get back together, they'll just come back. The two of you need to get some new tools to address them, because your current tools and skills aren't working. Counseling, books, something...
> 
> ...


No, she hasn't. You're right, I guess I can't overcome them. I don't know what to do. I have a marriage counselor appt now for Tuesday with her. My wife doesn't take any criticism, even if she is wrong. SHe will get angry with me. I guess I was a fool somewhat, but I am easy going. I am wondering myself why should I go on with this. She has to fix this I guess and maybe she can't.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

You need to draw a line in the sand and take a stand here. Her behaviour is NOT acceptable. If you go into that MC appt with anything less, you'll get bowled over.

The great sex you had was her way of shutting you up and making you forget that you think she's cheating.

When she gets angry, you need to disengage. Walk away. Calmly tell her that you are leaving the room because she is angry, and you will continue the conversation when she is calm.

I really think anger management should be one of your non negotiable things here. She either gets it, or she leaves.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Married women and mothers don't go out drinking with 22 year olds on Saturday nights, leaving their husbands and kids home. And married men don't either. 

Are you her husband or her baby sitter?

Read this post.......http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/27426-what-ive-learned-past-year-good-news-story.html


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Sorry if I missed it but did you find out who her boyfriend was?


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## confused wtf (Mar 7, 2013)

I got a good idea what is going on here. Talking it with you guys have helped greatly. I understand she is abusive to me. Her grudges, even though at first were my fault, where i have overcome them, she holds me to them severely. This is the problem and it is not going away. THis is a control issue, with her lack of criticism and temper, I cannot win any arguments even if I am peacefully talking. Then I am labeled passive agressive. She tends to lose her temper 90 percent of the time first, maybe more. 

I do not see her cheating. I see her too insecure to even do so. This is the crux of the matter. I was blind to it because she has the ability to cry so often, that it messes with a guys ability to see things clearly, giving me the guilt trip. It is odd to say that I am the one beign abused, by an insecure person. Abusers are insecure, and that is why they do it. They aren't necessarily cheaters. I think I am in a rather unique situation, or at least in a unique situation of identifying what is going on here. Plus I am willing to talk about it which most guys who would come up with this conclusion woudl probably dismiss it or so. But I ahve also abused her myself, in my way. It was because I am not that much of a pushover as well. Unfortunately though I can say that I am able to overcome these things but she isn't. 

This makes sense as to why she wouldn't be cheating on me... that she is too insecure, why I can't even watch cnn with their being an attractive blonde girl in an article without me being reamed. I think I will just go for the divorce and nobody will understand me. But perhaps I should leave... and never let anyone find me, where I can be free. Its almost as if her whole argument against me is a projection of herself on me, except that her projection is a step ahead of where i actually am.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Then you may be the problem with your boundaries. She may have lost respect because your letting her walk allover you. You need to take the leadership role and guide this marriage. It's apparent she can't. 

Take the quiz on this site, tell us where you stand?

No More Mr. Nice Guy


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## confused wtf (Mar 7, 2013)

I scored a 49. I told her my terms last night. I said I know you may not like this, may cry, or may get angry, but i think this is the only way to fix the problem. I paused for awhile and said I will no longer accept you holding against me wrongs from the past that I have reconciled, such as going to the tilted kilt with my boss one time or lookin at a few pictures of a model from a movie. Your anger towards me over this and lack of forgiveness is abusive. Its what lead up to our last argument in which you hit me. I told her I would do everything not to raise my voice to her again and I hope she could do the same for me.

That's the gist of it. She said it takes time for her to get over that. I told her its been almost a year and it ultimately lead to this. I see if she wouldn't accept those terms it would mean divorce. She chose divorce last night and called her mother immediately. She didn't even give it a consideration.

30 minutes prior she was talking to me because I don't know what she wanted. She mentioned three things that I already do. I compliment her and she doesn't accept them or doesn't remember. She said I started kissing her neck more and she likes it. I started that awhile ago, but she claims its only because she threatened to leave me. I told her I already did this and she says its different now. I told her I didn't do it any differently. I told her she doesn't recognize when I compliment her. I forget the third thing. I left with no understanding of what she wanted or why she wanted to separate. 30 minutes later I told her this. I am resentful for her lack of trying and I think it is all her fault and told her. I think she knows this but not sure. I have no idea what she wants, except to be free. Its best to divorce. I suspect she is losing weight to find other men, rather boys. I suspect she will regret this, but I don't know if I'll be there to take her back. I cried over my daughter this morning. She doesn't know whats happening yet. Alot of thoughts have ran through my mind on how to proceed, be single, disappear from earth, move to Mexico, or stay here and find a woman. I don't know yet but... we'll see.


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## SaltInWound (Jan 2, 2013)

Sorry to hear of her decision, but it really was no surprise. Even in the end, she was trying to blame the breakup of the marriage on YOU and what you did or did not do, and even when she admits that you tried to fix some things, she found fault in those positive changes. 

She knows why she wants to separate. The writing is on the wall. You set boundaries about acting like a married woman with a child and she wants to live the lifestyle of a younger, single party girl. She won't admit that, because it would mean she would have to take the blame for the breakup of the marriage.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Confused, I agree with Anchor that you are seeing lots of red flags. Specifically, the behaviors you describe -- the physical abuse, temper tantrums, irrational extreme jealousy, and rapid flips between Jekyll and Hyde (e.g., frequent breakups followed by passionate makeup sex) -- are some of the classic traits of a personality disorder (PD). 

Moreover, studies indicate that 25% of women suffering from bulimia also suffer from that PD. Yet, if your W has strong traits of that particular PD, those traits would not disappear for years at a time and them surface at the end of your 8 year marriage. 

I therefore ask whether these dysfunctional traits have been present (e.g., every two or three weeks) throughout your marriage? I also ask whether you've seen strong occurrences of most of the following behaviors:

1. Black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" and will recategorize someone -- in just a few seconds -- from one polar extreme to the other based on a minor infraction;
2. Frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions like "you always" and "you never;"
3. Irrational jealousy and controlling behavior that tries to isolate you away from close friends or family members;
4. A strong sense of entitlement that prevents her from appreciating your sacrifices, resulting in a "what have you done for me lately?" attitude and a double standard;
5. Flipping, on a dime, between adoring you and devaluing you,;
6. Frequently creating drama over issues so minor that neither of you can recall what the fight was about two days later;
7. Low self esteem;
8. Verbal abuse and anger that is easily triggered, in seconds, by a minor thing you say or do (real or imagined), resulting in temper tantrums that typically last several hours;
9. Fear of abandonment or being alone -- evident in her expecting you to “be there” for her on demand, making unrealistic demands for the amount of time spent together, or responding with intense anger to even brief separations or slight changes in plans;
10. Always being "The Victim," a false self image she validates by blaming you for every misfortune;
11. Lack of impulse control, wherein she does reckless things without considering the consequences (e.g., binge eating or spending);
12. Complaining that all her previous BFs were abusive and claiming (during your courtship) that you are the only one who has treated her well;
13. Mirroring your personality and preferences so perfectly during the courtship period (e.g., enjoying everything and everyone you like) that you were convinced you had met your "soul mate;"
14. Relying on you to center and ground her, giving her a sense of direction because her goals otherwise keep changing every few months;
15. Relying on you to sooth her and calm her down, when she is stressed, because she has so little ability to do self soothing;
16. Having many casual friends but not any close long-term friends (unless they live a long distance away);
17. Taking on the personality of whatever person she is talking to, thereby acting quite differently around different types of people; and
18. Always convinced that her intense feelings accurately reflect reality -- to the point that she regards her own feelings as self-evident facts, despite her inability to support them with any hard evidence.


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## confused wtf (Mar 7, 2013)

Uptown said:


> Confused, I agree with Anchor that you are seeing lots of red flags. Specifically, the behaviors you describe -- the physical abuse, temper tantrums, irrational extreme jealousy, and rapid flips between Jekyll and Hyde (e.g., frequent breakups followed by passionate makeup sex) -- are some of the classic traits of a personality disorder (PD).
> 
> Moreover, studies indicate that 25% of women suffering from bulimia also suffer from that PD. Yet, if your W has strong traits of that particular PD, those traits would not disappear for years at a time and them surface at the end of your 8 year marriage.
> 
> ...


[*]1. Black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" and will recategorize someone -- in just a few seconds -- from one polar extreme to the other based on a minor infraction; 

Yes that has ocurred, particularly with judgements on my family, sisters, etc.

[*]2. Frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions like "you always" and "you never;"


I don't know about frequent, but yes, thats a problem. Such as when she says I never compliment her.

[*]3. Irrational jealousy and controlling behavior that tries to isolate you away from close friends or family members;

Yes, I already had to get rid of my friends when we were younger. They were bad influences, I'll give her that much. My family not so much, somewhat though.

[*]4. A strong sense of entitlement that prevents her from appreciating your sacrifices, resulting in a "what have you done for me lately?" attitude and a double standard;

Nothing like that except i do see a double standard. She can watch whatever she wants but I can't watch anything with women in it. I found pictures of her looking at the sexiest guys of 2012. If I was caught doing that i'd be in severe trouble.
I did use this against her but didn't really matter.

[*]5. Flipping, on a dime, between adoring you and devaluing you,;

Not really. She did say she was obsessed with me before. I wouldn't say it was flipping on a dime.

[*]6. Frequently creating drama over issues so minor that neither of you can recall what the fight was about two days later;

Yes. Constantly.

[*]7. Low self esteem;

Yes.

[*]8. Verbal abuse and anger that is easily triggered, in seconds, by a minor thing you say or do (real or imagined), resulting in temper tantrums that typically last several hours;

Yes

[*]9. Fear of abandonment or being alone -- evident in her expecting you to “be there” for her on demand, making unrealistic demands for the amount of time spent together, or responding with intense anger to even brief separations or slight changes in plans;

Intense anger to brief separations. She called me 50 times when I left when we fought in Christmas. Previously she would be angry when I left.

[*]10. Always being "The Victim," a false self image she validates by blaming you for every misfortune;

Yes, in turn I almost am always the victim also. I think I claim to be the victim more so. She gets uncontrollably upset when I say its all your fault this happened. I am blaming her. 


[*]11. Lack of impulse control, wherein she does reckless things without considering the consequences (e.g., binge eating or spending);

She was doing binge eating. She has gotten that under control. She did buy a car with minimal knowledge by me of what she was buying a month ago. This was right before she told me she was leaving. I did allude to her getting a car, she said she was looking at one I said that's nice, then she signed for it. I was upset and she was confused that I was upset.

[*]12. Complaining that all her previous BFs were abusive and claiming (during your courtship) that you are the only one who has treated her well;

No, not at all.

[*]13. Mirroring your personality and preferences so perfectly during the courtship period (e.g., enjoying everything and everyone you like) that you were convinced you had met your "soul mate;"

Yes, she claimed to like things that she didn't really like just to be with me.

[*]14. Relying on you to center and ground her, giving her a sense of direction because her goals otherwise keep changing every few months;

I'm not sure if she does rely on me. Don't think so. I consider myself to be nurturing on this matter and let her do what she wants. She did recently get into chiropractic stuff and was upset that I didn't believe in it. She was insisting that we take her to the chiropractor for an ear infection, which I thought was ridiculous. She was upset when I said we should go to the doctor for antibiotics, she suddenly changed and does not like them anymore because her boss told her how they're bad for you. She's upset that I don't understand this. 

She also became very religious a year ago, but that seems to have dwindeled.

[*]15. Relying on you to sooth her and calm her down, when she is stressed, because she has so little ability to do self soothing;

I don't really know.

[*]16. Having many casual friends but not any close long-term friends (unless they live a long distance away);

Kind of. 

[*]17. Taking on the personality of whatever person she is talking to, thereby acting quite differently around different types of people; and

Mm, somewhat yes. 

[*]18. Always convinced that her intense feelings accurately reflect reality -- to the point that she regards her own feelings as self-evident facts, despite her inability to support them with any hard evidence.

I imagine so.


What is the PD called? What can I do to help? Should I?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

confused wtf said:


> What is the PD called?


It's called BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW has. I suspect that BPD is where Anchor was headed with his questions about her history of instability, violence, and childhood abuse. I suspect he stopped short of mentioning BPD because, until you responsed to my list of 18 traits, you gave no strong indication of instability. Simply stated, if your W is emotionally stable, she cannot have a strong pattern of BPD traits -- because instability is key.


> What can I do to help?


Absolutely nothing if she has strong BPD traits. It is something she must learn to control herself. There are many excellent treatment programs available for that purpose. Yet, if she has strong BPD traits, it is extremely unlikely she will be willing to do so. It is rare for a BPDer to have the self awareness and ego strength necessary for staying in therapy long enough to make a difference.


> Should I?


I suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with. Only a professional is capable of determining whether your W's BPD traits are severe enough to satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having full-blown BPD.

Although you are not capable of diagnosing her, you nonetheless are capable of spotting the red flags for BPD (and other PDs) if you take time to read about them. There is nothing subtle about traits such as verbal abuse, physical abuse, temper tantrums, and black-white thinking.

I therefore suggest that, while you're waiting for an appointment, you read about BPD traits to see if most sound very familiar. An easy place to start is my brief description of them in my post in Maybe's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If that description rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you and point you to good online resources. Anchor, Salt, and several other TAM members also are very experienced with BPD and NPD issues. Take care, Confused.


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## confused wtf (Mar 7, 2013)

Uptown. Thank you so much. I am not sure how strong her BPD traits are, I need to learn more about this. I am going to read up on this. NOt sure what to do still. THis makes sense though.


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## confused wtf (Mar 7, 2013)

My main concern is that when she takes custody of our daughter and leaves, she will act out her BPD traits on my daughter, creating a wreck. I consider myself a strong minded person, I expect/suspect that I am damaged from this realtionship wise for the future. I feel that I may have corralled her BPD traits in ways that made it minimal or perhaps I am too damaged to understand this myself. I don't know what is the best way to proceed. I don't know how to present this to her, but I believe I will. Any advice on how to get her to see a psych would be great.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

confused wtf said:


> I feel that I may have corralled her BPD traits in ways that made it minimal.


No, you cannot "corral" or suppress a person's BPD traits. If you are seeing only "minimal" BPD traits, then she does not have a BPD problem. Keep in mind that BPD is considered to be a "spectrum disorder."

This means that every adult on the planet has all nine of the BPD traits to some degree. At a low level, these traits are beneficial and have survival value, particularly during childhood. They become a problem only when they become strong enough to distort one's perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations. When that happens, they undermine one's ability to sustain LTRs because the BPDer will push close friends and lovers away.

At issue, then, is NOT whether she has BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. Rather, the issue is whether she has moderate to strong BPD traits that are undermining your marriage.


> I am not sure how strong her BPD traits are,


Please don't try to see something that isn't there. If she has strong BPD traits, they will be obvious to you once you've learned which nine traits to look for. As I said earlier, there is nothing subtle or nuanced about behavior like temper tantrums, verbal abuse, physical abuse, irrational jealousy, and fear of abandonment. After living with her for 8 years, you would have to be deaf, dumb and blind not to see such dysfunctional behaviors if they are occurring strongly.


> My main concern is that when she takes custody of our daughter and leaves, she will act out her BPD traits on my daughter, creating a wreck.


Please do not worry about that until you've first established that she has a strong and persistent pattern of BPD traits. At this point, you are very uncertain about that. And I certainly don't know because I've never met the lady.


> I expect/suspect that I am damaged from this relationship wise for the future.


If you've been living with a BPDer for 8 years, then you likely are affected in some respects. At this point, however, you aren't even sure you are seeing strong BPD traits.


> I don't know how to present this to her, but I believe I will.


If you ever suspect that your W has strong BPD traits, I strongly recommend that you NOT tell her of your suspicions. If she is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you. Because that projection will occur at the subconscious level in her mind, she likely will be absolutely convinced that YOU are the BPDer. Projection works in that way to protect a BPDer's fragile ego from seeing too much of reality.


> Any advice on how to get her to see a psych would be great.


If you suspect she does have strong BPD traits, I strongly recommend that YOU be the one to see a psychologist -- and that you do so all by yourself. Ironically, when BPD (or NPD or AsPD) are strong possibilities, your best chance of obtaining a candid professional opinion is to see the psych by yourself. 

For many reasons, relying on your W's therapist to tell you the unvarnished truth about these disorders is as foolish as relying on your W's attorney for advice during the divorce. I discuss those reasons in my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-official-im-getting-divorced.html#post811909.

For purposes of this discussion, Confused, it would be helpful to know which of the traits I described in Maybe's thread are the strongest and which are the weakest. As I mentioned, some of the traits (e.g., instability) are more important than others.


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## Marriagecounselor101 (Mar 9, 2013)

*Re: Not sure what is going on (Read)*

First off you have been married for 8 years which for marriages today is quite an accomplishment. First step you must make an oath to yourself to never put your hands on your wife again!! The fact that you even mention that you find the make-up sex rewarding is not normal. Respect is first and foremost. Your wife must love you if she has been with you all of these years plus you have a child together and she just recently began to declare she is over you. Keep in mind that if you want your marriage to work it takes 2, but you can surely guide this ship from sinking. With the death in the family and I'm sure other stresses in your lives. Think when was the last night you had a one on one date to a new place you wouldn't regularly visit. KEEP IN MIND IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A LAVISH PLACE. START SMALL! You can take a walk in a park, beach, go for a sundae movie, etc. OUT OF THE HOUSE!!! Only the two of you. Once that is done set boundaries! Know both of your breaking points every human has a trigger (Example: Calling her a ***** and as a result she punches you) You must identify those triggers and never set them off again if you want this marriage to work. Also, no more routine date at least once a month for the next five months, if you are not looking as handsome as the beginning change that (workout, run, shave, smell nice, etc.), no smothering get your space and let her have hers, last talk about the future you see 10 years from now ENVISION IT TOGETHER WITH YOUR CHILDREN!! Make it happen! Saving this marriage is not a job its more like saving your happiness and your children's. Let me know if this helped :scratchhead::smthumbup:


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## confused wtf (Mar 7, 2013)

Uptown said:


> No, you cannot "corral" or suppress a person's BPD traits. If you are seeing only "minimal" BPD traits, then she does not have a BPD problem. Keep in mind that BPD is considered to be a "spectrum disorder."
> 
> This means that every adult on the planet has all nine of the BPD traits to some degree. At a low level, these traits are beneficial and have survival value, particularly during childhood. They become a problem only when they become strong enough to distort one's perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations. When that happens, they undermine one's ability to sustain LTRs because the BPDer will push close friends and lovers away.
> 
> ...


Uptown, I am convinced she has BPD. I'm just not sure how servere it is. I'm not sure if counseling will help. She did use to cut herself in high school. She threatened suicide previously during our marriage. For what I don't remember, but I'm sure it was finding fault in her for something she was arguing about. 

Mainly she is very much instable with our relationship and has had a strong fear of abandoment up until the past year or so when things have changed. Although I didn't notice it at the time. Looking at the three cycles of a relationship of BPD, I have no doubt in my mind completed the first two cycles and have recently entered the third. 

My concern is how to treat or, or just leave it alone and get a divorce. I don't know how to begin, I don't want to see a therapist myself about it, I don't think I need to. I do want to see a therapist with both of us involved. I think she is not severe, she no longer expressed suicidal thoughts to me and has no drug alcohol issue, so I am sure she is better than many with BPD.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

confused wtf said:


> Uptown, I am convinced she has BPD. I'm just not sure how servere it is.


In that case, it would be far more accurate to say you are convinced she *"has strong BPD traits."* You are capable of spotting them, i.e., the symptoms. You are not capable of determining that she *"has BPD,"* which implies she has been diagnosed as having BPD. Only a professional can do that.

Significantly, even when BPD traits fall well short of meeting the diagnostic criteria, they can still be strong enough to make your life miserable and undermine your marriage. That is, a person satisfying only 70% or 80% of those criteria is said to "not have BPD" but nonetheless can be almost as difficult to live with as a person satisfying 100%. Hence, for purposes of deciding whether to remain married to her, what is important is whether her dysfunctional behavior is so strong that you are unhappy. For that purpose, it does not matter whether they are so severe as to meet 100% of the diagnostic criteria.


> I'm not sure if counseling will help.


It likely will not if she is a BPDer (i.e., a person having strong BPD traits). MC, in my experience, is totally useless until a BPDer has had several years of weekly therapy. Learning better communication skills will not help until a BPDer has first learned how to address the more serious issues. Such therapy likely will be useless unless she has a strong desire to take advantage of it.


> She did use to cut herself in high school.


Cutting is STRONGLY associated with BPD. A 2004 study, for example, concludes that _"the majority of those who self-mutilate are women with borderline personality disorder."_ See Understanding those who se... [J Psychosoc Nurs Ment Health Serv. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI. Cutting typically is done by low functioning BPDers -- or by high functioning BPDers who temporarily have slipped into a low functioning state.


> I think she is not severe, she no longer expressed suicidal thoughts to me and has no drug alcohol issue, so I am sure she is better than many with BPD.


Most people having full-blown BPD are high functioning, which means they typically interact very well with business associates, casual friends, and total strangers. None of those people are able to pose a threat to her two great fears. Namely, there is no close relationship that can be abandoned and no intimacy to cause engulfment.


> She threatened suicide previously during our marriage.


When life becomes very stressful, however, a HF BPDer can slip into a low functioning state temporarily. Generally, while a BPDer is in the HF state, her threats of suicide are simply intended to control you. But, then, you never know for sure. 

My exW, for example, would sometimes walk to a nearby tall bridge, knowing I was following protectively behind. When I stopped following her, she stopped going to the bridge. Instead, she would go to a nearby subway platform, where she would call and tell me she was going to jump in front of the next train. When I stopped running down to the subway, she stopped doing that too.


> My concern is how to treat or, or just leave it alone and get a divorce.


If you had no children, I would suggest you get a D unless you have reason to believe your W is willing to work hard to address her issues in therapy. Yet, because you have a 6 year old daughter, I suggest you do whatever you decide is in the best interests of your daughter. You are in the best position to make that judgment call. I also suggest, again, that you seek a professional's opinion on what it is that you and your daughter are having to deal with. Seeing a professional also will give you an opportunity -- if he says it is BPD -- of asking what the chances are that she will pass it on to your daughter.



> I don't know how to begin, I don't want to see a therapist myself about it, I don't think I need to. I do want to see a therapist with both of us involved.


*As an initial matter,* I again suggest that you NOT tell your W about your suspicions. Instead, simply encourage her to see a good psychologist (not a MC) and let the psych decide what to tell her.

*Second,* if you think you may stay with her a while, I suggest you get _Stop Walking on Eggshells_, the best-selling BPD book targeted to spouses like you. Or, if you are decided to get a divorce instead, get _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder._ Both books are written by the same author.

*Third,* I suggest you start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com -- the largest and most active BPD forum I've found that is devoted fully to the spouses and family members of BPDers. This issue is such an enormous problem that that website is growing by 20 new members every day. The result is that it offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. The ones that likely will be most helpful to you are the "Staying" board, "Leaving" board, and "Parenting after the Split" board.

*Fourth,* while you are at BPDfamily.com, I suggest you read the excellent articles in their resources section. My favorite is article #9 at T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York. I also recommend Kathy Batesel's article at Borderline Personality Disorder and Relationships.

*Fifth,* I again suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with -- and how likely it is she may pass it on to your daughter. As I mentioned earlier, your best chance of getting a candid opinion regarding a possible BPD diagnosis is to NOT have the BPDer along. Therapists are loath to tell high functioning BPDers the name of the disorder.

*Finally*, please don't forget those of us on this TAM forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences here, you likely are helping many other members and lurkers.


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## confused wtf (Mar 7, 2013)

I think I am in a lose lose situation. I am not concerned with passing it on to my daughter so much yet, as inflicting it upon our daughter, when she is older. I suspect it will occur. I have seen slight signs of odd behavior in her towards our daughter. Although she has an intense love of our daughter, much how she did with me early on. Its unfortunate, it is clear as day now.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

confused wtf said:


> I am not concerned with passing it on to my daughter so much yet, as inflicting it upon our daughter, when she is older.


My experience with high functioning BPDers is that they can be good mothers while the children are young -- because the kids are so fully dependent on them that they don't trigger the fears of abandonment or engulfment. When the kids approach puberty, however, they will become rebellious and problems with an untreated BPDer mother can be very pronounced at that time.

That said, the courts tend to place a teen in whatever home she wants to live in. Even if the court neglects to do that, a teen can make life such a living hell for the parent that, for all practical purposes, a teen likely is going to end up living with the parent she wants to live with. Hence, by the time things really get bad, your DD may be able to choose to live with you on a nearly full-time basis.


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