# Finally at that point....



## ZDog377 (May 31, 2015)

So my wife and I will be married 10 years coming up in September. We have three kids and things have not been good since last year about this time. We were going to separate then but decided that we wanted to give it one more chance. 

She came up to me Sunday morning and told me that she's no longer wanting to try and that she wanted to separate. The past few days have been tense to say the least. At first she didn't want to talk about it at all because she said she wasn't going to change her mind but I told her I needed to because I had so many unanswered questions. 

I'm totally lost at this point for where to go. I know I need to talk to a lawyer, but do I want to just consider separation right now and divorce after a few months? I'm currently unemployed due to a company downsizing and she had to pick up more hours because of that. I've mentioned multiple times that I'm staying in the house and if she is the one that wants to end things, she can go out and get a place. I also mentioned that if she does that, there is no chance of working things out. 

How do I find a good lawyer? Do they already know general questions people are going to ask and then go from there?? :|


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

1. search fathers rights attorneys on line,
2. ask people you know who are divorced who is the shark lawyer in town
3. google could be your friend here, spend some time looking.

You really need to get a job, though if you D right now, you may get more alimony.

Are you sure she doesn't have a boyfriend? 

Talking to her is not going to help you at this point, if she is dead set on D, she is now your enemy. You need to start to see it that way.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

Sorry to hear things have not worked out. 

I would get a lawyer and file for divorce. How about child care? How are the kids being taken care of now?


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Zdog, I am sorry your there....i would not give her the separation, i would just tell her that we are moving to divorce...but what gets me is that she does not want to talk about why not? is there someone else ?


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## ZDog377 (May 31, 2015)

brooklynAnn said:


> Sorry to hear things have not worked out.
> 
> I would get a lawyer and file for divorce. How about child care? How are the kids being taken care of now?


I'm watching the kids when she is at work, if I have an interview or something to take care of we have a babysitter we have been using. Just to keep things kosher, I've been paying this person for the time I use them. 

I do have money, I received a severance from my job plus I am getting unemployment. 

Things did seem to take the large nose dive right after I was let go. The first couple weeks weren't bad since I had not really been home before. Then it started to get irritating I think to her. She felt more things should be getting done, that the same amount was getting done as before when I wasn't home. I've never really had to look for a job since I graduated college and I didn't realize how it becomes a full time job in itself. 

She didn't want to talk about it in the beginning, I'm not sure why. I don't know if it was so I couldn't voice my opinions and make her see why it was not the best option?? I did get out of her the reasons why she wants a divorce: she wants space, she wants to be more independent, and she wants to find herself. If you read back through my other thread, I think there are things that have lead to these "opinions". However, we are not really in a financial position to move into different households right now. 

We have started to talk more and I think at least for now we are working on things little by little. I did tell her I am willing to work on things if we stay in the same household but I understand not sleeping in the same bed and things like that for now. However, I told her if she moves out of the house I am done, I consider that the end. 

She has also had a medical issue that has come to a head and is a major decision for her whether we are together or not.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Zdog, this is going to seem harsh...but your wife doesn't love you. She hasn't for some time. 

Now that you are home more, it has gone beyond her level of tolerance for you.

I'm sorry, brother. 

Are you going to be on the hook for her student debt in any way?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

^^^^

I agree. 

I think you would have never pulled the plug but she has. And, yes, having you home all the time when you used to be gone during the week has made a difference to her -- and not in a good way.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Sorry -- I posted before I read today's update. Sounds like she's backing away from divorce?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

ZDog377 said:


> She didn't want to talk about it in the beginning, I'm not sure why. I don't know if it was so I couldn't voice my opinions and make her see why it was not the best option?? I did get out of her the reasons why she wants a divorce: she wants space, she wants to be more independent, and she wants to find herself. If you read back through my other thread, I think there are things that have lead to these "opinions". However, we are not really in a financial position to move into different households right now.


With her debt, she will never be in a financial position to get her own household. And since you are jobless, hey she may even potentially pay you spousal support. 

How do you think she feels about that? Hmmm?

I think that is why she has "backed off a little".

Like FSJ stated, she doesn't love you and she doesn't much respect you...but she has the sense to milk the situation for as long as she can and then leave at the right time that is most beneficial to her. 



ZDog377 said:


> We have started to talk more and I think at least for now we are working on things little by little. I did tell her I am willing to work on things if we stay in the same household but I understand not sleeping in the same bed and things like that for now. However, I told her if she moves out of the house I am done, I consider that the end.


Zdog, what exactly makes you think you are both working on things? 2 years on TAM and if we are to believe what you tell us, I haven't seen her work on much at all. So I don't understand where this is coming from.



ZDog377 said:


> She has also had a medical issue that has come to a head and is a major decision for her whether we are together or not.


Would you care to elaborate?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Are you going to be on the hook for her student debt in any way?


That would really suck!

In most instances, a spouse will not be held responsible for student loan debts unless they cosigned for the loan. I hope you didn't do that Z.

If you live in a community property state then the lines get blurred a bit and may depend on when the debt was incurred, how and when the loan proceeds were used.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

ZDog377 said:


> I'm watching the kids when she is at work, if I have an interview or something to take care of we have a babysitter we have been using. Just to keep things kosher, I've been paying this person for the time I use them.
> 
> I do have money, I received a severance from my job plus I am getting unemployment.
> 
> ...


She was just using you as a checkbook now that's gone there's no reason to keep you around.

Amazing at what some will put up with. You can't help yourself. No one else is going to either


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## ZDog377 (May 31, 2015)

Tron said:


> With her debt, she will never be in a financial position to get her own household. And since you are jobless, hey she may even potentially pay you spousal support.
> 
> How do you think she feels about that? Hmmm?
> 
> ...


She finally went this week and is starting to diganose why she has pain during sex and no desire. She has also picked up more hours with me being off work. Finally, we have started to work on finding things that we can do together even when the kids are home. 

I'm still working on getting my mental health issues figured out right now. I've also started to find hobbies that I can do myself and I've been making time for them. I've bought a bunch of lawn mowers to fix up and sell along with doing basic woodworking. 

I'm planning on seeing a lawyer this week so I can have all my facts in front of me.


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## ZDog377 (May 31, 2015)

As another side note, I have been working on myself other than the hobbies. I've lost a little over 20 pounds in the past couple months and have also started going to the gym every now and then with a friend. I'm feeling in a slightly better mood too since the weather has started to break at least for this week!


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

Marc878 said:


> *She was just using you as a checkbook now that's gone there's no reason to keep you around.*
> 
> Amazing at what some will put up with. You can't help yourself. No one else is going to either


I drives me crazy when I see the stuff in bold on TAM.

His wife was a SAHM for 3 kids, including a newborn and a 3 year old, while the OP had a very intensive travel job. The OP was gone Mon-Fri, week after week. She was in charge, non-stop, 24-7, for three kids. There was a long thread about it: 
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/283818-wife-feels-touched-out.html

She was working her ass off 5 days a week totally on her own. Not everyone loves being the only person in charge of several little people non-stop, with no partner at home to help out. That is not "using him for his money". That is working to support the family while the husband gets his traveling life.

It looks like she got her job- and IIRC it's a good job- once the 2nd youngest was ready to go to school, which would put the youngest around ages 2 or 3, where most parents feel more comfortable sending their kids to daycare. It's still expensive to send a child to daycare at 2 and 3 years old, but it's way less expensive then sending a newborn and a 2 year, which is when the OP first came onto the scene at TAM.

I'm not saying in any way that the wife's actions were good. But I am saying that she has pulled her weight with childcare and running the house. She ran it basically all on her own for as long as she had to. Women get devalued constantly on TAM and this is one example. 

It is entirely predictable that spouses lose their connection when one spouse travels a lot for work. It happens often, it is a well-known phenomenon.Per the OP, he has been traveling for the entire time of their relationship, apparently until his lost his job. 
@ZDog377, I'm sorry to hear that you and your wife are still struggling. IMO losing one's job is a horrible experience to go through; this could not have helped your stress and anxiety levels. I hope though that it turns out to be a true blessing in disguise, if you get a local job that keeps you home. 

In your old thread, many people recommended that you read His Needs, Her Needs- I'm not sure if you got a chance to do that, but if not, I highly recommend it now. Check out the section on the three states of mind in marriage: intimacy, conflict, withdrawal. Back in your old thread, I thought your wife was in Withdrawal, which is the worst place to be. Conflict is better- going through Conflict is necessary to get back to Intimacy. You can check it hear as well: https://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3600_state.html

You were away for years, basically, and your wife had a system that worked for her. Having you home was likely disruptive to that system, probably similar to when a husband retires and his long-term SAHM has a hard time dealing with it. In this case, conflict might be good. I think it's great that you were able to loop back and get the conversation about divorced started again. I hope the two of you can keep talking. 

Both you and your wife are on your last legs for this marriage, but you're still there. Are you looking for traveling jobs? or are you keeping your job search local?


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

RoseAglow said:


> I drives me crazy when I see the stuff in bold on TAM.
> 
> His wife was a SAHM for 3 kids, including a newborn and a 3 year old, while the OP had a very intensive travel job. The OP was gone Mon-Fri, week after week. She was in charge, non-stop, 24-7, for three kids. There was a long thread about it:
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/283818-wife-feels-touched-out.html
> ...


Making a lot of bull**** excuses doesn't change a thing.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

Marc878 said:


> Making a lot of bull**** excuses doesn't change a thing.


I'm not sure what would change? My argument is that she worked her a$$ off and her willingness to do this allowed the OP to have his traveling job. Do you disagree?


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

I was a stay at home dad for awhile so I'm well versed on how much work is involved in taking care of young kids and running a household (laundry, meals, childcare) but that's no excuse for going into total mommy mode, living at the PTA and totally neglecting everything else in the marriage.

Sounds to me like she wasn't working her ass off as much as avoiding her husband for one excuse or another.

This saga had been going on now for what a couple years or so.

Your analogy is about as full of **** as a Christmas turkey.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

Marc878 said:


> I was a stay at home dad for awhile so I'm well versed on how much work is involved in taking care of young kids and running a household (laundry, meals, childcare) but that's no excuse for going into total mommy mode, living at the PTA and totally neglecting everything else in the marriage.
> 
> Sounds to me like she wasn't working her ass off as much as avoiding her husband for one excuse or another.
> 
> ...


So you were a SAHD, your wife was gone from Monday-Thurs and you took care of a newborn, a toddler and an elementary school kid? You did this all on your own? Did you use your wife as a paycheck at that time?

I never said she was in the right for the marriage stuff. I disagree with your statement - and even bolded it to show exactly what I was referring to- that she was using him for a paycheck and that was it.


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## ZDog377 (May 31, 2015)

RoseAglow said:


> I drives me crazy when I see the stuff in bold on TAM.
> 
> His wife was a SAHM for 3 kids, including a newborn and a 3 year old, while the OP had a very intensive travel job. The OP was gone Mon-Fri, week after week. She was in charge, non-stop, 24-7, for three kids. There was a long thread about it:
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/283818-wife-feels-touched-out.html
> ...


Definitely looking for an at home job. I've considered something that has me overnight for day or two a month but none of this 75-80% travel stuff. I would really like somewhat of a field position where I'm not behind a desk all day. Our problem right now is finding a combination of pay and benefits since she cannot get benefits at her job. 

I do hate though how people refer to it as the "traveling life". Maybe you're different, but everyone feels that it is this cushy job where I go out and get to party after work and stuff. That is the problem she had with it. We argued about how my concerns were less while I was on the road. I won't say that her job was a cakewalk, but there were many times I didn't get credit for what I was out doing. My issues were when I would come home early Saturday morning (1 or 2 AM) and find a sink full of dishes. I would get frustrated and end up doing them.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Rose, I think your point has some merit, but it is taking a very narrow view of ZDog's wife...the same woman who amassed six figures in student loans and has yet to begin paying for them...and was reluctant to pursue anything in the field for which she indebted herself...and instead wanted to use her time to volunteer...while Z was traveling 80% of the time to sustain their lifestyle. 

This situation is messy...and I think there is an element of truth to what Marc has said as well. 

ZDog, her level of effort sounds like it has improved. Why do you suppose that is, just a short time after she suggested divorce?



Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## ZDog377 (May 31, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> Rose, I think your point has some merit, but it is taking a very narrow view of ZDog's wife...the same woman who amassed six figures in student loans and has yet to begin paying for them...and was reluctant to pursue anything in the field for which she indebted herself...and instead wanted to use her time to volunteer...while Z was traveling 80% of the time to sustain their lifestyle.
> 
> This situation is messy...and I think there is an element of truth to what Marc has said as well.
> 
> ...


Honestly, I have no idea but I wish I knew. She has definitely picked up more hours as of late, she even offered to take on a few bills tonight as well. I do have to find a way to budget with her though, my pay is looking like it will take at least a $10K a year pay cut. 

She's been sort of more affectionate the past few days (hugs and stuff), I'm not too keen on sex knowing the pain it causes her. Hopefully the GYN/Surgeon can figure out the best option for her to have less, even possibly eliminate the discomfort.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

RoseAglow said:


> I drives me crazy when I see the stuff in bold on TAM.
> 
> His wife was a SAHM for 3 kids, including a newborn and a 3 year old, while the OP had a very intensive travel job. The OP was gone Mon-Fri, week after week. She was in charge, non-stop, 24-7, for three kids. There was a long thread about it:
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/283818-wife-feels-touched-out.html
> ...


A really good post!


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

I would look at Endometriosis as a possible source of her pain during intercourse.

During your travels, she got used to you 'not being around'. 
Now that you are around, she realizes she does not really like you. 
You are not compatible with her, or her needs. 

The asking for space indicates this. She knows she has to make a move.
She is biding her time. 

She is putting the needs of her children over her own needs.
Still......


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

The thing is.....

When you are depressed and conflicted, there is a tendency to be benumbed.
To be paralyzed; unable to move forward.

Acting as if you were tied to a post, unable to move.
Feeling mental anguish, her stomach tying itself in knots.

Her vagina listening to this upstairs neighbor; it then locking it's portal, it's door.
Locking tight. Locking itself from probing intruders.

She may be 'that' way.



The Typist II-


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

ZDog377 said:


> I do hate though how people refer to it as the "traveling life". Maybe you're different, but everyone feels that it is this cushy job where I go out and get to party after work and stuff. That is the problem she had with it. We argued about how my concerns were less while I was on the road. I won't say that her job was a cakewalk, but there were many times I didn't get credit for what I was out doing. My issues were when I would come home early Saturday morning (1 or 2 AM) and find a sink full of dishes. I would get frustrated and end up doing them.



Please believe me, I sympathize with the "traveling life". I started off my current career traveling at 80-90% all over the US, and the people who report who report to me now sometimes travel at that level (although I try to get it down to a more reasonable 50-60% and to keep travel as local as possible.) I still travel at around 40-50% but thankfully almost all of it is local and I am home most nights, only away between 2-5 nights per quarter, or up to 20 nights/year. Even this is hard on my H, and I will be looking for a new job sometime in the next 6-9 months.

So when I talk about the "traveling life" I know it first-hand and I see its effects on people first hand. I manage it with my people. I have watched marriages fall apart over it and that is why I know that it happens Some families thrive on it, but it is a real challenge for many people. 

I have to say, I shake my head at your compliant at coming home at the end of the week and being upset that there are dishes in the sink. That is minor, minor stuff and if you got huffy over little things like that while your kids were clean, safe, fed, etc. then IMO you really didn't appreciate what she had to do.

At the same time, I have no doubt that she also didn't appreciate all that you were doing. Traveling that much is grueling in it's own way. It's not 24-7 care-taking of very needy little kids, but it is late nights, flight delays and missed connections, long work hours, and being the only paycheck in a family with four dependents so the pressure is always on. Neither of you were in cakewalk. Unless people are independently wealthy, there is no such thing as a cakewalk when you are a parent with three kids!

This is just what happens when spouses lose their connection and no longer feel like partners. It becomes "I do sooo much!" vs "how can we handle this together." Each partner feels that they are taken for granted and underappreciated. 

Another TAM pet peeve of mine is when people come here, describing their marriages in a really bad state, and posters take the perspective that the other spouse is terrible and that it will always be this way, rather than realizing that the behaviors are just the norm when marriages are in a down state. People behave better when they are happy in their marriages, broadly speaking.

IMO people in your situation, in which is there no known infidelity (and you checked, which you have in the recent-ish past IIRC) and really obvious stresses in the marriage, take the "TAM Choir" at a risk to their marriage.

IOW threatening divorce will just lead to divorce in this, as your wife is already there and is basically hanging on by a thread. Also, she already knows she can handle the family on her own, so there is no fear for her on that end.

Also taking to heart statements like "She just used you for a paycheck" is both flat-out wrong and also going to do nothing but fuel an adversarial attitude, when right now you have the opportunity to finally heal your marriage and come together.

So I hope you and your W are able to get used to being around each other. I really hope you do read His Needs, Her Needs. You will see that things like dads spending time with their kids build massive "deposits" in most wives' "love banks". Try to spend some 1:1 time with your wife when she will allow it. Don't be afraid of conflict but don't fight, just stay calm and try to work it out. I am not surprised that she is being nicer. It is encouraging to see that she is going to the doctor to find out what is causing pain during sex. That book is really good at helping spouses fall back in love with each other.

Instead of berating you for being here two years later, I am going to say that after two years, the one condition that would make fixing your marriage possible has now happened- you no longer traveling. You finally have the chance to build up "love deposits" for each other.. 

It's my hope that you two, being so close to the edge of divorce, will realize that you both want to stay married. I hope you can decide together that the past set up no longer works for you and that together, you can find a way forward.


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## ZDog377 (May 31, 2015)

SunCMars said:


> The thing is.....
> 
> When you are depressed and conflicted, there is a tendency to be benumbed.
> To be paralyzed; unable to move forward.
> ...


I have thought for a while that her mind was part of the reason that she was having pain. For her pain during sex, they are recommending a hysterectomy. She has a meeting with the surgeon to discuss if it would be full or partial. I know this is a major decision for her.


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## ZDog377 (May 31, 2015)

RoseAglow said:


> Please believe me, I sympathize with the "traveling life". I started off my current career traveling at 80-90% all over the US, and the people who report who report to me now sometimes travel at that level (although I try to get it down to a more reasonable 50-60% and to keep travel as local as possible.) I still travel at around 40-50% but thankfully almost all of it is local and I am home most nights, only away between 2-5 nights per quarter, or up to 20 nights/year. Even this is hard on my H, and I will be looking for a new job sometime in the next 6-9 months.
> 
> So when I talk about the "traveling life" I know it first-hand and I see its effects on people first hand. I manage it with my people. I have watched marriages fall apart over it and that is why I know that it happens Some families thrive on it, but it is a real challenge for many people.
> 
> ...


Believe me, I want to stay married. I know most people won't agree with this. I had her come with me to my personal counselor once and she told us "if what you're doing now isn't working, try something different". We will do something for a few weeks, she will admit she sees a difference then it stops. All I've ever asked her for is to feel appreciated and desired. 

As far as the dishes in the sink, it might seem trivial until you realize that I have a 12 year old at home and some of the dishes/pans were in there since Monday when I left. I really don't think she appreciated it, her response was "that it was expected". Hell, she promised to bake a 300 cookies for the school musical and was on vacation. She baked about 75 before she left but when her flight home got delayed I ended up baking the rest of them. Probably 100 sugar cookies and another 75 gingerbread. Everybody made comments about how I would get "paid" back for helping out, but in the end I got a post on Facebook. 

The reason that losing my job was the tipping point is that she feels more should be getting done around the house. It seems like a constant competition....kind of like "I could do this amount when you weren't home, we should be getting double done now that you're home" I'm surprised but glad that she offered to take over some of the bills. My concern is just that she is not great financially and I'm hoping they would get paid on time.


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## ZDog377 (May 31, 2015)

So I went and saw the lawyer yesterday and was told pretty much that she will get half of my retirement. That amounts to around $40K. He said he sees no reason why I would not get 50/50 custody. 

I don't think she knows what she wants right now. There are times she talks about the future but says other things that make me question the future.


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## VermiciousKnid (Nov 14, 2017)

So who's the other dude? Because there is one. I'd bet a paycheck on it.


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## ZDog377 (May 31, 2015)

VermiciousKnid said:


> So who's the other dude? Because there is one. I'd bet a paycheck on it.


As of right now, I can't find any proof.


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## VermiciousKnid (Nov 14, 2017)

ZDog377 said:


> As of right now, I can't find any proof.


You should look deeper. Take it very logically. When are there periods of time her whereabouts are unaccounted or at least situations where she has a chance not to be where she says? Do you have unrestricted access to her phone, computer, tablets, etc.? Unrestricted access to email accounts? They can still hide even with that. A popular thing that non-tech savvy cheaters do is delete cheating apps between uses. What they don't think about is there is still a trail left behind. I don't feel like listing all the popular cheating apps because there are many and I don't know them all but I do know this. If they've ever been downloaded onto that phone not only do they leave data behind in the phone's app data folder (different places for iOS and android but you can easily find how to check it with a simple google search) but if you go into the Apple app store or Google play and search for these apps on her phone, it'll show you if it's been downloaded/installed before. Again, the less tech savvy cheaters don't know that. Is that irrefutable proof? No. Does it tell you that shady activity is going on and needs investigated? Yes.

Hiring a PI is the absolute best way to find out but that can be very pricey. There are many ways you can do these things yourself.


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## ZDog377 (May 31, 2015)

I want to say it doesn't matter at this point, but it would be nice to have something to point to as the definite cause instead of a "just because" issue. I'll have access to her phone this weekend to work on the memory card but I doubt I'll find anything.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Zdog, I question why you would want to look for evidence.

I'm sorry to put it this way, but I have read all of your threads (as you probably are well aware of) and I do not see your wife as a quality person. 

Don't you feel you are better than that?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

People who want out of their marriage very often find someone to help them jump because they're too scared to do it on their own. That may or may not be the case with your wife but I have followed your story from the beginning and the one thing that's been obvious from the start is that she's not interested in you. You are trying very hard to hold on to something that's just not there. 

Lots of people stay in bad marriages until the bitter end. Is that your plan?


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## ZDog377 (May 31, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> Zdog, I question why you would want to look for evidence.
> 
> I'm sorry to put it this way, but I have read all of your threads (as you probably are well aware of) and I do not see your wife as a quality person.
> 
> ...


I think part of my problem has been low self esteem. I've started working on myself and definitely feel better about myself. 

I've always said she was a quality mother and when I was traveling out of town, I never had to worry about something happening to the kids because she went nuts. She's a awesome cook too, although it's kind of weird finding out that the meat wasn't meat sometimes. 

It almost "seems" like there is less stress now again because there are no expectations.....might not be the right explanation, but that's what it seems like.


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