# I Feel Like My Sixteen-Month-Old is King of the House



## momtwo4

I need advice. I'm at my wit's end with my sixteen-month-old son. As a mother of four children, I really thought I'd been through it all with my three older kids (3, 4.5 and 7). But this little one has really thrown a fast ball on me. What has worked with my other kids has not worked with him. 

He thinks it is funny to hit, pull hair, and even bite. An example: I was working in the basement for a few hours last night (I work part-time from home) while my husband watched the kids. When I came upstairs, my son ran up to me with his little chubby arms reached out. Of course I picked him up. Then he promptly hit me in the face and tried to pull my hair while laughing. _I do not tolerate this behavior. _ I promptly firmly grasped his little hand, said "no" and put him in his room. Of course he screamed and pounded on the door. After a few minutes, I went and picked him up again. He tried to hit me again and we repeated the process. I go through this with him all the time. He hits the other kids, pulls their hair, etc... 

I have tried to avoid spanking my kids throughout my parenting years. There have been a few instances where we've spanked our kids, but we've never used a belt (I will never do that), and it has always been with our hand. I have tried firmly "bopping" my little one's diapered bottom, but he just thinks that's funny. Should I resort to a stinging swat? I'm trying to teach him to be gentle, so I'm not sure if that is the best approach either.

At any rate, I am exhausted. He is everywhere. He learned to climb out of his crib, he climbs on the table (I of course don't tolerate this) and if someone forgets to close the bathroom door it's a disaster. It's not like he has no attention span. He will sit on my lap and listen to a story. But what I'm doing does not seem to be getting through to him.

Does anyone have advice/ideas?


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## that_girl

He sounds like my nephew. ALLL BOY!  

My older daughter was a biter. Omg. She broke skin on me TWICE (ages 1-2 years), bit a kid at school (almost got kicked out of her daycare!), bit my mom...we tried time outs, etc, but she wasn't getting it...until I bit her back one day (she bit my shoulder and drew blood). Not my proudest moment, but it worked. I didn't bite hard, but enough to where she was shocked and said, "OUCH!" and after that, she didn't bite another person.

I don't know about the other stuff...other than he's just a rough little guy. Maybe some other posters have suggestions.


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## Almostrecovered

don't use the spanking route, "Violence is okay if you are bigger" is the message you will convey. He's only 16 months and has no comprehension of future consequences.

Just remain consistent, when he hits you tell him no hitting and place him in the playpen or other safe zone he can't escape from. 


more info

http://www.parenting.com/article/ask-dr-sears-toddler-hitting

How can I stop my toddler from hitting us? | BabyCenter


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## GTdad

that_girl said:


> My older daughter was a biter. Omg. She broke skin on me TWICE (ages 1-2 years), bit a kid at school (almost got kicked out of her daycare!), bit my mom...we tried time outs, etc, but she wasn't getting it...until I bit her back one day (she bit my shoulder and drew blood). Not my proudest moment, but it worked. I didn't bite hard, but enough to where she was shocked and said, "OUCH!" and after that, she didn't bite another person.
> QUOTE]
> 
> LOL, this was the first thing that occurred to me, but I thought I'd probably be accused of savagery. I was apparently a biter, too. I'm told I bit my grandfather (who I probably loved more than any other person growing up; I mean, I worshipped this man). My grandfather promptly bit me back, and that was that. Never bit anybody again.
> 
> Anther thing is to figure out what he considers a punishment. Every kid is different. You've already established that spanking is a non-starter, and that sending him to his room is effective, so continue to explore that. Take away (for a week or so, not forever) a toy that he values. No treats, maybe. In other words, determine what pushes his buttons.
> 
> But seriously, biting back (not too hard) may do the trick. It apparently did for me.


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## golfergirl

Reading with interest - my 20 month is a thrower. TV remotes - cups - you name it! Great - my 4 year old is just getting out of the terrible twos and my young one is starting early.
I do notice the misbehavior starts up when I'm distracted and he wants attention.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## momtwo4

that_girl said:


> I didn't bite hard, but enough to where she was shocked and said, "OUCH!" and after that, she didn't bite another person.


I'd try this. I think the problem is that very small children don't understand that something they think is funny hurts someone else.


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## momtwo4

Almostrecovered said:


> don't use the spanking route, "Violence is okay if you are bigger" is the message you will convey. He's only 16 months and has no comprehension of future consequences.
> 
> Just remain consistent, when he hits you tell him no hitting and place him in the playpen or other safe zone he can't escape from.
> 
> 
> more info
> 
> http://www.parenting.com/article/ask-dr-sears-toddler-hitting
> 
> How can I stop my toddler from hitting us? | BabyCenter


That's pretty much attitude toward spanking, but I'm just feeling at a loss with him at this point. And he crawls/climbs out of the playpen.  Little stinker. Thanks for the links. I will definitely check them out.


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## momtwo4

GTdad said:


> [QUOTE
> Anther thing is to figure out what he considers a punishment. Every kid is different. You've already established that spanking is a non-starter, and that sending him to his room is effective, so continue to explore that. Take away (for a week or so, not forever) a toy that he values. No treats, maybe. In other words, determine what pushes his buttons.


Yeah. That's what I've been trying to do. He does hate being in his room by himself, but then he resorts to the same behavior when he gets out. I think the punishment needs to be pretty instant. He's too young to remember why he doesn't get a treat.


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## Almostrecovered

yeah at 16 months if you take away a toy for a week and give it back he will think it's a new toy


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## costa200

He doesn't know what hurting is, for him it's all one big joke where he gets the other one all upset (that's so much fun). Swat him in the hand the second he pulls that crap and he'll get the message.



> don't use the spanking route, "Violence is okay if you are bigger" is the message you will convey. He's only 16 months and has no comprehension of future consequences.


That's false. He has no comprehension of future consequences if they are not immediate and clear enough. 




> Just remain consistent, when he hits you tell him no hitting and place him in the playpen or other safe zone he can't escape from.


One swat is 10x more efficient than that for a 16 month old child that won't even comprehend the link between what he has done and the punishment. 

I come from a big family. Lots of cousins. Nobody would beat on each other because we all knew how that would be handled by our parents. When our parents stopped having control over us we were old enough to understand how to behave. 

I know that the new age says corporal punishment this and that. Thing is, i never saw a single scientific article explaining why a responsible parent can't dish out a swat on an misbehaving kid. The articles that do exist are philosophical and use unsubstantiated sentences like the one you used here:



> "Violence is okay if you are bigger" is the message you will convey.


Given that the older generations basically all had been beaten by their parents why did society just not crumble in a spiral of violence?

I'll tell you why, because the message you pass is not that unless you act like an idiot and hit the kid over nothing. The message you pass is that behaving like a wild animal has very clear consequences. 

Want a clear view of this? Compare the way kids behaved in school back then and how they do now. Were they more violent in the past when they were being belted everyday? Did they do more crimes? Were there more teenage murderers? 

Of course not, so, where does that leave that idea that dishing a swat is going to turn a kid into a violent person?

Lets face it. That idea that a swat is that much of a trauma for a kid was made up by certain psychologists who spend their lives in offices thinking about how to raise a child and not nearly enough time actually doing it. 

I would take an old father or mother advice on how to do things over some guy/girl who spent years to have a diploma on the wall while avoiding actually doing the stuff that are supposedly experts at.


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## Almostrecovered

costa200 said:


> Lets face it. That idea that a swat is that much of a trauma for a kid was made up by certain psychologists who spend their lives in offices thinking about how to raise a child and not nearly enough time actually doing it.


somewhat ignorant take on child psychologists and scientific studies

you're essentially stating that you know better because of your prejudiced notion of what a child psychologist is


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## costa200

Almostrecovered said:


> somewhat ignorant take on child psychologists and scientific studies
> 
> you're essentially stating that you know better because of your prejudiced notion of what a child psychologist is


I'm a teacher. I deal with child psychologists on a daily basis. I happen to know for a fact that most of them can't even raise their own children without stumbling all over themselves. Yet they have no problems advising others. 

And about scientific studies, i'll be glad to read every study that demonstrates that a kid that gets a swat get psychologically damaged for life. 

It will be interesting to compare those findings with the fact that generations of belted and roded people didn't seem to suffer any side effect and were exemplary humans.

Do not confuse child abuse with a well controlled disciplinary measure. I'm portuguese, in my generation we all got the occasional smack from our parents. Yet the average portuguese family is very tight. Family is the center of everything. We joke at the table of the time when mom or dad smacked us due to our mischiefs. I personally love my old geezers. Everytime they hit me it hurt them more than me.


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## that_girl

Children (in my 12 classes over the years) have been MUCH MORE disrespecting and mouthy and rude to adults. This was the FIRST year that I, as a teacher, was cussed out by a 10 year old kid. I wasn't just called a b1tch, I was also told to shut the f8ck up.  Other teachers got it from other kids too. The district doesn't do CRAP because they dn't want the suspension numbers to look bad at my OLD school (woot! Done from there!)

But what was mom's response? "Oh I just don't know what to do with him...he doesn't listen to me either. Oh well...."

Kick his ass, lady! honestly. The children RUN the homes and it shows in the classroom.


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## costa200

that_girl said:


> Children (in my 12 classes over the years) have been MUCH MORE disrespecting and mouthy and rude to adults. This was the FIRST year that I, as a teacher, was cussed out by a 10 year old kid. I wasn't just called a b1tch, I was also told to shut the f8ck up.  Other teachers got it from other kids too. The district doesn't do CRAP because they dn't want the suspension numbers to look bad at my OLD school (woot! Done from there!)
> 
> But what was mom's response? "Oh I just don't know what to do with him...he doesn't listen to me either. Oh well...."
> 
> Kick his ass, lady! honestly. The children RUN the homes and it shows in the classroom.



Get the child psychologist to sit down with him and explain over the course of an hour why he should not do it... I'm pretty sure that will solve it...


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## that_girl

costa200 said:


> Get the child psychologist to sit down with him and explain over the course of an hour why he should not do it... I'm pretty sure that will solve it...


:lol::lol: That was my work's idea of "help". Yea. Didn't do crap and we had an upper grade hallway that was like a mental ward. Kids were OUT OF CONTROL and we couldn't do anything, and parents just waved their hands. Some parents started hanging up on us and complaining to the admin that we call too much :rofl: Unreal.


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## Lon

I used to judge parents based on their kids - I thought the way the kid is has to do with how he is being raised. Until I had a infant son of my own. Now I know they all have their own personalities, including behavior and the way the act in whatever situation. You can learn to cope but they will learn faster how to workaround your solution (that's what their spongy little brains are designed to do).

I have no advice. lol. Cope, I guess. and try not to take it personally, consistency helps the most in my own parenting experience, there have been spankings, but my son would laugh it off too unless you hit him hard enough to the point where I felt like a massive goon - in which case he certainly did behave better, and usually for a good two or three days after (which indicated to me it was probably quite traumatic). He also spanks back now, lol, and has so much more persistence than I can ever conquer, he is too wiry and strong to hold (and as soon as you do watch out because he turns into the hulk, a little ball of pure rage).

Atleast now he is old enough to talk and reason with, so I can atleast be the dominant male of my own house using my wits, and can use rewards and punishment other than physical.


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## costa200

that_girl said:


> :lol::lol: That was my work's idea of "help". Yea. Didn't do crap and we had an upper grade hallway that was like a mental ward. Kids were OUT OF CONTROL and we couldn't do anything, and parents just waved their hands. Some parents started hanging up on us and complaining to the admin that we call too much :rofl: Unreal.


Yeah, i know all about that. Although not really reaching that point the parents of the worse kids are consistently ones who say things like "what can i do?", "he doesn't listen to me", "he is past the age of obeying me"... And, my favourite, "what do you propose i do about it?"

Some parents these days are totally subservient to their kids. Somehow they got into their heads that they should be "friends" to their kids instead of parents. 

Then i have to spend the first two classes of the year finding the class leader (their puny version of alpha male/female) and making him/her my pet. 

Humans are such apes sometimes.


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## kag123

How much individual attention is he getting from you and dad? 

He has three older siblings...are they teaching him that things like this are funny? My kids are 2.5 & 3.5 and the older kids at daycare think it's hilarious when they act out, which gives them motivation to do it more.

My opinion - at 16 months old he is just starting to test boundaries and likely doesn't have a lot of empathy about how his actions affect others.

Also - my son (3.5) was a hell raiser and still is. He could dismantle any kind of childproofing at your sons age and climbed everything, took apart the whole house, bit people, etc. He is a gifted child (seriously) and we have trouble with keeping up enough stimulation for him to stay out of trouble. When he's bored his bad behaviors increase. He does well with adult activities...at your sons age we were giving him chores (dusting, putting toys away, sweeping, etc.) And he loved it. We also bought him a whole bunch of old electronics at yard sales...old vcrs, remotes, etc and let him have a screwdriver. He took it all apart and put it back together.

Test to see if he's just bored. Try to spend a good bit of alone time with him too. Remember that to little kids, any attention is good attention. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## costa200

> We also bought him a whole bunch of old electronics at yard sales...old vcrs, remotes, etc and let him have a screwdriver. He took it all apart and put it back together.


I would advise caution in doing that. Some electronic appliances have toxic materials in them.


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## kag123

costa200 said:


> I would advise caution in doing that. Some electronic appliances have toxic materials in them.


I didn't really provide full details as I post from my phone and its a PITA to get lengthy. As a disclaimer my husband took everything apart fully and removed sketchy contents from inside, put back together and then gave to the kid. And obviously there are pieces that could be choking hazards...our kid was good about not putting things in his mouth and he was monitored while doing it. My point was just to illustrate thinking outside the box for things that a toddler would find entertaining. My son the trouble maker was never interested in baby toys, they were somehow beneath him (that is how he seemed to act).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## costa200

kag123 said:


> I didn't really provide full details as I post from my phone and its a PITA to get lengthy. As a disclaimer my husband took everything apart fully and removed sketchy contents from inside, put back together and then gave to the kid. And obviously there are pieces that could be choking hazards...our kid was good about not putting things in his mouth and he was monitored while doing it. My point was just to illustrate thinking outside the box for things that a toddler would find entertaining. My son the trouble maker was never interested in baby toys, they were somehow beneath him (that is how he seemed to act).
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Alright then, i had a mind movie of the little todler swallowing some weird component. Guess having a 3 year old is getting to me!


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## that_girl

That's how my husband learned about machines/cars. His dad would give him old car crap for xmas (when he was about 3 on) and he'd take it apart and put it back together.


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## golfergirl

Lon said:


> I used to judge parents based on their kids - I thought the way the kid is has to do with how he is being raised. Until I had a infant son of my own. Now I know they all have their own personalities, including behavior and the way the act in whatever situation. You can learn to cope but they will learn faster how to workaround your solution (that's what their spongy little brains are designed to do).
> 
> I have no advice. lol. Cope, I guess. and try not to take it personally, consistency helps the most in my own parenting experience, there have been spankings, but my son would laugh it off too unless you hit him hard enough to the point where I felt like a massive goon - in which case he certainly did behave better, and usually for a good two or three days after (which indicated to me it was probably quite traumatic). He also spanks back now, lol, and has so much more persistence than I can ever conquer, he is too wiry and strong to hold (and as soon as you do watch out because he turns into the hulk, a little ball of pure rage).
> 
> Atleast now he is old enough to talk and reason with, so I can atleast be the dominant male of my own house using my wits, and can use rewards and punishment other than physical.


Our kids should play together - sounds like they would get along!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon

golfergirl said:


> Our kids should play together - sounds like they would get along!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


any time you are in toontown, get the kids together at fun factory or something... and bring one of your hot single girlfriends with you


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## Gaia

My son, at two, is a pretty roudy boy himself. He is pretty stocky and strong. He doesn't bite but he has slapped, punched, shoved, and pulled hair... (mainly does this to his older sister) What works for him is a time out in his room, toy being confinscated, and a firm swat on the butt or hand if those fail. Of course when he gets a swat he still gets sent to time out for about 15 to 30 mins until he cools down. At that point either his father or I go in and sit him down, explain that he is in time out for his actions and his actions have consiquences. We let him know that what he did was wrong and we tell him to go apoligize to his sister and give her a hug. He always nods his head at this point then he goes and gives her a hug and kiss. If he shakes his head no then we tell him he can stay in time out a little longer until he is ready to go apoligize. 

You should give keeping him in time out a bit longer then a few mins OP. You don't have to try a swat on the butt or hand if it makes you uncomfortable but you can try what we do if you would like. You just have to remain firm and consistant.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## momtwo4

kag123 said:


> How much individual attention is he getting from you and dad?
> 
> He has three older siblings...are they teaching him that things like this are funny? My kids are 2.5 & 3.5 and the older kids at daycare think it's hilarious when they act out, which gives them motivation to do it more.
> 
> My opinion - at 16 months old he is just starting to test boundaries and likely doesn't have a lot of empathy about how his actions affect others.
> 
> Also - my son (3.5) was a hell raiser and still is. He could dismantle any kind of childproofing at your sons age and climbed everything, took apart the whole house, bit people, etc. He is a gifted child (seriously) and we have trouble with keeping up enough stimulation for him to stay out of trouble. When he's bored his bad behaviors increase. He does well with adult activities...at your sons age we were giving him chores (dusting, putting toys away, sweeping, etc.) And he loved it. We also bought him a whole bunch of old electronics at yard sales...old vcrs, remotes, etc and let him have a screwdriver. He took it all apart and put it back together.
> 
> Test to see if he's just bored. Try to spend a good bit of alone time with him too. Remember that to little kids, any attention is good attention.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for the ideas. The interesting thing is that when he finds something he likes, he will become intrigued and do it for quite a while. He LOVES books, and will sat on my lap quietly while we look at them together. But he turns into a terror when I'm busy and working with the other kids.


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## SprucHub

Mom-
Our 4th (now 2.5) is a terror too, and always has been. She is bright and always wanted to be like the older kids. Now that she is more able to interact, she is less of a terror. She does hit, scratch, pull hair on her 4 y-o sister (who is too much of an angel to know how to respond, so she just sits there). And, sometimes, she'll hit us when she is having a tantrum. But, more or less, she is growing out of it.

Spanking or really punishing a 16 month old is at best pavlovian conditioning, and probably not what you want to be doing.

Of course she is waking up in the middle of the night . . .


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## NextTimeAround

> "Violence is okay if you are bigger" is the message you will convey.


does that mean it's ok to let the child know that violence is ok if you're smaller.

My SIL who is a special needs teacher has told me that it's difficult to get rid of students even when they have attacked other children in the class.


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## FirstYearDown

I am not a parent, so I will not give advice.

As someone who has survived severe child abuse (biting, kicking, strangling) it may surprise some members that I agree with smacking a child. No child deserves what I grew up with, but I agree that kids today are out of control because they do not fear consequences. 

When I was going to school, I could always tell which kids were spanked at home and which were not. The kids were were not spanked were very disrespectful and poorly behaved.

My two year old niece hits her mother and screams at her grandmother. She does not DARE try that sh!t with Auntie FYD, because I am very firm with my niece. I will shout "Stop it right now!" and glare at the toddler. She cuts her crap immediately.

I cannot hit her because my BIL and his wife don't believe in corporal punishment. If that child is already hitting her mother at this age, she will be beating up her parents by the time she is sixteen. Her mother tries to have rational discussions with my niece when she is throwing a tantrum; she even _apologizes _for putting the child in time out! :rofl:

I know I will get some snarky post to the effect of "You don't know what you're talking about because you don't have kids." Whatever. I know bullsh!t when I smell it.


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## Lyris

FirstYearDown said:


> I am not a parent, so I will not give advice.
> 
> As someone who has survived severe child abuse (biting, kicking, strangling) it may surprise some members that I agree with smacking a child. No child deserves what I grew up with, but I agree that kids today are out of control because they do not fear consequences.
> 
> When I was going to school, I could always tell which kids were spanked at home and which were not. The kids were were not spanked were very disrespectful and poorly behaved.
> 
> My two year old niece hits her mother and screams at her grandmother. She does not DARE try that sh!t with Auntie FYD, because I am very firm with my niece. I will shout "Stop it right now!" and glare at the toddler. She cuts her crap immediately.
> 
> I cannot hit her because my BIL and his wife don't believe in corporal punishment. If that child is already hitting her mother at this age, she will be beating up her parents by the time she is sixteen. Her mother tries to have rational discussions with my niece when she is throwing a tantrum; she even _apologizes _for putting the child in time out! :rofl:
> 
> I know I will get some snarky post to the effect of "You don't know what you're talking about because you don't have kids." Whatever. I know bullsh!t when I smell it.


Well, I was never smacked as a kid, neither were my brother or sister and we were all well-behaved at school and generally high achievers. So there's an anecdote that cancels yours out.

I have two children, 5 and 2. I have never smacked them. I have never put either of them in time out. I don't use star charts or take their stuff away.

They are both polite, considerate and co-operative. Neither of them have ever hit me. And if my sister ever yelled at either of them, she wouldnt be welcome in my house.

OP, your son is 16 months. He's too young for time out or removal of privileges. He sounds like a high-energy kid who needs lots of attention. Give him lots to do, distract him, give him lots of sensory play experiences with water, sand, mud and fingerpaint. Take him out and let him run, jump and move even more. If he hits you put him down immediately, say "no" very firmly and walk away.

He's still a baby, give him some time.


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## Sbrown

Almostrecovered said:


> don't use the spanking route, "Violence is okay if you are bigger" is the message you will convey. He's only 16 months and has no comprehension of future consequences.
> 
> Just remain consistent, when he hits you tell him no hitting and place him in the playpen or other safe zone he can't escape from.
> 
> 
> more info
> 
> Toddler Hitting - Stop Kids from Hitting - Parenting.com
> 
> How can I stop my toddler from hitting us? | BabyCenter


LOL, how did we ever survive...I'd bet MILLIONS of people where spanked as children and most come through just fine. Most kids learn the difference between violence and punishment really quick. I have a 17 month old and he definitely knows of future consequence. Rarely does he get swats, but he knows when he is up to no good, because he tries to hide it. 

To the OP, you say you put him in his room and then get him a few minutes later. Do you wait until he is done with his tantrum? My son knows that he doesn't come out of his crib or off of the time out chair until he is done crying.


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## Sbrown

Lyris said:


> Well, I was never smacked as a kid, neither were my brother or sister and we were all well-behaved at school and generally high achievers. So there's an anecdote that cancels yours out.
> 
> I have two children, 5 and 2. I have never smacked them. I have never put either of them in time out. I don't use star charts or take their stuff away.
> 
> They are both polite, considerate and co-operative. Neither of them have ever hit me. And if my sister ever yelled at either of them, she wouldnt be welcome in my house.
> 
> OP, your son is 16 months. He's too young for time out or removal of privileges. He sounds like a high-energy kid who needs lots of attention. Give him lots to do, distract him, give him lots of sensory play experiences with water, sand, mud and fingerpaint. Take him out and let him run, jump and move even more. If he hits you put him down immediately, say "no" very firmly and walk away.
> 
> He's still a baby, give him some time.


You mean there is more than one way to raise a child??? 

The key is to find something that works, swats don't work for every child, nor does all the other countless other means of discipline. I think that is where we are failing our children, we assume that there is only one way and that is just not the case.


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## Lyris

Sbrown said:


> LOL, how did we ever survive...I'd bet MILLIONS of people where spanked as children and most come through just fine. Most kids learn the difference between violence and punishment really quick. I have a 17 month old and he definitely knows of future consequence. Rarely does he get swats, but * he knows when he is up to no good, because he tries to hide it.*
> 
> To the OP, you say you put him in his room and then get him a few minutes later. Do you wait until he is done with his tantrum? My son knows that he doesn't come out of his crib or off of the time out chair until he is done crying.


You might want to consider if that's a good thing. Do you want him trying to hide stuff he's done wrong or mistakes he's made? Or do you want him to feel comfortable coming to you for help?


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## FirstYearDown

Why is it so wrong to raise your voice at a child who is not listening? 

This is a serious question, not a sarcastic one. 

I think that North American parents are much more lenient and permissive than parents in Asia, the Caribbean or Europe.


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## Lyris

Depends where in Asia. I can tell you in Japan at least, young children are far more indulged than they are where I live (Australia). They routinely sleep with their mothers, for one thing. And yelling at a two year old is not the norm there either.

An adult shouting at a two year old is intimidating and threatening. All it does is treat the symptom, which is what bad behaviour is. It does nothing to stop the same behaviour occurring again. It shows a loss of control on the part of the adult too. It probably will end up with the child complying out of fear, but that's certainly not what I would consider a good parenting outcome. 

And what do you mean by not listening? Not paying attention? Not obeying? Not hearing? Is it okay to yell at your spouse if they aren't listening? 

Children are not considered to be people by most adults. They are the only people it's okay to hit. They have no power, they are basically at the mercy of their parents. The USA hasn't even signed the United Nation's convention on the rights of the child.

As an aunt, I don't accept that it's okay for you to yell at your niece unless its a question of safety. You shouldnt be disciplining her at all, unless you are her guardian or something. But that's up to your sister I guess.


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## Sbrown

Lyris said:


> You might want to consider if that's a good thing. Do you want him trying to hide stuff he's done wrong or mistakes he's made? Or do you want him to feel comfortable coming to you for help?


LOL, it proves that he knows of future consequence, it proves that he knows that he is not supposed to be doing what it is he is doing.


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## rj700

FirstYearDown said:


> Why is it so wrong to raise your voice at a child who is not listening?
> 
> This is a serious question, not a sarcastic one.
> 
> I think that North American parents are much more lenient and permissive than parents in Asia, the Caribbean or Europe.


I don't think it is wrong. But there is a difference to shouting with anger vs. raising your voice with assertiveness. One thing I didn't see in this whole thread is the notion that children, even very young ones, are very in tune with your emotions. So whether it is a swat on the butt, a time out or any other form of discipline, I believe one (not the sole) critical components is that you are not reacting with anger or frustration. But with firm, but calm disapproval.

Now that's a very *TALL *order. One I have yet to master with any of my 4 boys.


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## FirstYearDown

Lyris, when I am babysitting my niece, I am in charge of her well being and her behavior. This was what my SIL told me.  My SIL marvels at how well behaved my niece is around me. She cannot get her own child to respect her authority. How sad.

I am not sure why you assumed that _your _approval or acceptance is important when it comes to a family which you are not a part of. :scratchhead: We believe that it takes a village to raise a child and the children in our families need to respect and obey their elders, especially the ones who are related to them.

Auntie don't take no mess! I am a very indulgent and playful aunt but I will NOT tolerate disrespect or hitting.


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## Lyris

As I said, it's up to your sister what is and isn't okay.

You used the word respect three times in that post. Only in terms of what the adults were due though. Children deserve the same level of respect as adults do, and shouting at them for 'not listening', isn't respectful. 

It doesn't take a village to raise a child. That's a slogan that people use because it sounds inclusive and embracing, but it really doesn't mean anything. Or it means different things depending on who is talking. 

In my family, there are two children. So, do I need to find two villages? How many people does that involve? Do I send them wandering out into the streets to find people to help raise them? 

In reality, it takes parents to raise children. Parents are the ones legally and morally responsible for their children in almost all societies. Occasional babysitting doesn't mean you are helping to raise a child. It means you have relationship with that child that I'm sure will be a source of love and support, but the actual formation of that child's character will occur where she spends the majority of her time and with the people she is the most strongly attached to.

And it's not surprising she's better behaved with you. I'm a teacher, kids are better with me than their parents. My kids are better with their teachers. It's because they feel safest and most secure with their parents. They know, or ideally they know, their parents will love them no matter what.


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## richie33

Going through this now. We have two boys. One is turning two at the end of September the other turns one on the 8th. My poor wife is dealing with this now. The oldest tests your patience. Turns the lights on and off all day, plus the TV. Into everything. The baby watches this and will be at it at any moment. Raising your voice doesn't work and the pat on the hand or butt gets him laughing. I am the lucky one....I get to go to work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sbrown

richie33 said:


> Going through this now. We have two boys. One is turning two at the end of September the other turns one on the 8th. My poor wife is dealing with this now. The oldest tests your patience. Turns the lights on and off all day, plus the TV. Into everything. The baby watches this and will be at it at any moment. Raising your voice doesn't work and the *pat on the hand or butt gets him laughing.* I am the lucky one....I get to go to work.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And this doesn't tell you something????? Like I dunno smack him harder??? 

I guess my wife and I are lucky. Our 17 month old son knows what "not for your hands" means, because WE TAUGHT HIM! 

Is it really that hard for an adult to correct a child's behavior?

For the love of all things holy YOU ARE THE ADULT!!!!!!!!!


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## Sbrown

Lyris said:


> As I said, it's up to your sister what is and isn't okay.
> 
> You used the word respect three times in that post. Only in terms of what the adults were due though. Children deserve the same level of respect as adults do, and shouting at them for 'not listening', isn't respectful. So if your child wants to color on the walls, do you "respect" that decision or do you correct it?
> 
> It doesn't take a village to raise a child. That's a slogan that people use because it sounds inclusive and embracing, but it really doesn't mean anything. Or it means different things depending on who is talking.
> 
> In my family, there are two children. So, do I need to find two villages? How many people does that involve? Do I send them wandering out into the streets to find people to help raise them?
> 
> In reality, it takes parents to raise children. Parents are the ones legally and morally responsible for their children in almost all societies. Occasional babysitting doesn't mean you are helping to raise a child. It means you have relationship with that child that I'm sure will be a source of love and support, but the actual formation of that child's character will occur where she spends the majority of her time and with the people she is the most strongly attached to.
> Not necessarily true, some of the people that have influenced me the most where people that came into my life for just a moment.
> And it's not surprising she's better behaved with you. I'm a teacher, kids are better with me than their parents. My kids are better with their teachers. It's because they feel safest and most secure with their parents. They know, or ideally they know, their parents will love them no matter what.


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## richie33

Not sure I want to smack my kid around for turning the TV or lights on and off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sbrown

richie33 said:


> Not sure I want to smack my kid around for turning the TV or lights on and off.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If it was about the TV or the light switch I would agree. But it is not. It is about who runs the household. Your 2YO is teaching your 1 yo that it is OK to ignore what mom and dad say. 

And NO ONE said smack him around, smack his hand/butt until he no longer thinks it is funny! Are you really telling me that you an ADULT can not make a CHILD do as you say? Really?


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## richie33

I will take your advice. You are right. I don't want him passing this behavior onto his brother.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FirstYearDown

Lyris, do you think that only your parenting style has any merit?


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## that_girl

It does take a village to raise children. That village is the family. When children know expectations, and they don't meet them, well, some disciplinary words are given...be it from me, my husband, my sister, my mom, my BIL, whomever. In my family, we raise our children. My sister and I are not so far removed from the same discipline branch that her reprimanding my children bothers me. It's never screaming (who does that? That's just out of control.) but it's stern and it let's my children know my sister's expectations of behavior ESPECIALLY when in my sister's home.

I am a teacher too, but where i taught for 12 years (just transferred-- WOOT!) the kids didn't care who they were around, they were rotten everywhere...5th grade and cussing out teachers, flipping off the principal, getting in fights, hitting their moms...yuck..

Kids need structure and clear expectations...whatever that may be to you as a parent and family. My children know their expectations and the rewards or consequences. It's not screaming or yelling (although with my 13 year old I do have to get quite loud as she doesn't take me seriously until i do...she's been like that since she was a kid), but there's always another chance to redeem if they eff up. They're kids. 

Consistency is key. Without it, any discipline will not work. Choose what matters to you as a family/parent and go with it. Be consistent and fair. My kids know I'm fair. Best thing my 13 year old ever said to me while we were in a discussion was, "I know you're just being a good mom and trying to be fair, but...I don't feel it's fair!!" HA! She sees that I am hard on her because I'm trying to be a good mom. Great. 

FYD has every right to reprimand her niece if that was the arrangement in her family. Who is anyone to say what goes on in anyone else's family? Wow. If I left my children with my sister, or if I had my nephew and niece, my sister and I would be responsible for keeping things consistent. I did have my nephew one day, and had to call my sister to make sure I was being consistent with her way of discipline ..."What should I do because he's throwing a big tantrum. How do you handle this?" She told me, I did it, he calmed down (Just had to take him to his room and close the door).

In my family, we're just very close. If I see the children in my family doing something completely out of line, I will reprimand, same as my sister does mine. Big deal. They have to learn to listen to all adults in this family.

Hell, we all still get reprimanded by my gramma. lol.


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## FirstYearDown

Sbrown said:


> And this doesn't tell you something????? Like I dunno smack him harder???
> 
> I guess my wife and I are lucky. Our 17 month old son knows what "not for your hands" means, because WE TAUGHT HIM!
> 
> Is it really that hard for an adult to correct a child's behavior?
> 
> For the love of all things holy YOU ARE THE ADULT!!!!!!!!!


:iagree::iagree:


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## Lyris

This is vile. Hurt a child for normal exploration? Why not turn the tv off at the wall, if you don't want him turning it on? Give him stuff he can turn on and off? Put up with the lights until he's had enough? 

And no, I don't let my kids draw on the wall. If they do, they help me clean it off and I give them things they can draw on. 

Hitting children to hurt them is wrong. If you hit an adult, it would be assault. If you hit someone else's child, it would be assault. But it's fine to hurt your own child, the only person you are actually legally responsible for?


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## richie33

Lyris said:


> This is vile. Hurt a child for normal exploration? Why not turn the tv off at the wall, if you don't want him turning it on? Give him stuff he can turn on and off? Put up with the lights until he's had enough?
> 
> And no, I don't let my kids draw on the wall. If they do, they help me clean it off and I give them things they can draw on.
> 
> Hitting children to hurt them is wrong. If you hit an adult, it would be assault. If you hit someone else's child, it would be assault. But it's fine to hurt your own child, the only person you are actually legally responsible for?


I think I used the word " pat" in my description, on the hand or butt. Can't say it bothers him one bit cause he is laughing at me. Its not in my nature to hurt my child or anyone's child. Sorry but you seem to be reaching.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl

I do agree with making kids clean up their messes. When my 3 year old was 1, she helped me scrub crayons off the windows...and walls...and floor. She didn't color on those things again.

I don't think anyone here beats their children. You seem very ready to prosecute people based on their discipline techniques. It's not a battle worth fighting. Unless there's serious abuse, who is anyone to say how a parent should parent?

I got slapped for calling my mom a b!tch. I deserved it. I'd slap my child too if she called me a b!tch. (I called my mom that becuse I was not getting my way...I was a teenager though). Oh well. I was not abused.


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## Lyris

FirstYearDown said:


> Lyris, do you think that only your parenting style has any merit?


I think that it is never okay to hit a child. I think it is perfectly possible to raise polite, kind, empathic children without hitting them or yelling. My parents did it, I'm dong it. 

That_Girl, FYD didn't say she reprimanded her niece. She said she shouted at her. She made it clear she would hit her if her sister and BIL weren't against corporal punishment. She inferred that she thought they were foolish and wrong for not hitting their child and believes that a two year old who hits and bites will necessarily become a teenager who violently abuses her parents. 

I speak sternly to my kids and other people's kids if they are behaving unsafely or inconsiderately. I don't accept rude, bad or dangerous behaviour but I also know what is normal and should be managed by distraction, changing the environment and offering appropriate outlets for whatever the child wants to do. 

And Sbrown, what if you hit your child and they continue to do whatever it was you hit them for? Do you hit them harder? And what if that doesn't work? Harder again? With a stick? 

Your child is 17 months old. And he's already trying to hide things from you. That is really a sad situation.


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## Lyris

richie33 said:


> I think I used the word " pat" in my description, on the hand or butt. Can't say it bothers him one bit cause he is laughing at me. Its not in my nature to hurt my child or anyone's child. Sorry but you seem to be reaching.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, you were agreeing that maybe you should hit him harder. Or that's how I read your response to Sbrown, apologies if I misinterpreted. 

I think that arguing against acceptance of hitting children as being normal and deisirable is a battle worth fighting. I don't see it any differently to a man slapping his wife, or pushing her against a wall. Or hitting an elderly person with Alzheimer's for throwing food or refusing to get dressed. All rely on physical intimidation of someone weaker.


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## Sbrown

Lyris said:


> This is vile. Hurt a child for normal exploration? Why not turn the tv off at the wall, if you don't want him turning it on? Give him stuff he can turn on and off? Put up with the lights until he's had enough?
> 
> And no, I don't let my kids draw on the wall. If they do, they help me clean it off and I give them things they can draw on.
> 
> Hitting children to hurt them is wrong. If you hit an adult, it would be assault. If you hit someone else's child, it would be assault. But it's fine to hurt your own child, the only person you are actually legally responsible for?


What if your child refuses to help clean the walls? By not disciplining your child you are doing more damage than by spanking them. Lol Ive known so many parents that think they're lil hellions are angels. You have yet to describe how you discipline your children?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sbrown

Lyris said:


> Well, you were agreeing that maybe you should hit him harder. Or that's how I read your response to Sbrown, apologies if I misinterpreted.
> 
> I think that arguing against acceptance of hitting children as being normal and deisirable is a battle worth fighting. I don't see it any differently to a man slapping his wife, or pushing her against a wall. Or hitting an elderly person with Alzheimer's for throwing food or refusing to get dressed. All rely on physical intimidation of someone weaker.


Lol I can't believe you would compare your children to a mentally sick person. Wow! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl

Unless you are there when someone hits their kid, you cannot say it's the same thing as an abused woman.

Swatting a child on the butt, not in the moment of anger, but because it's the consequence for an action is a lot different than punching a woman in the mouth just because you're pissed at her.

Geebus. No one here is saying they slap their kids around  They say they pat, or swat their kids butts or hands. They don't throw them into the wall and smash up their faces or bodies. At least that is not how I'm reading this. I read some sarcasm here, but nothing about serious abuse. 

Good grief.

I am in the mindframe of letting kids learn. My youngest one touched the stove while it was on and burned a finger. Not badly, but enough to where she doesn't come near the stove now. I told her it was hot, and that it would hurt, and she didn't listen. better the stove 'swat' her than me. 

But keep fightin it. I mean, start a whole thing in the public eye to stop people from hitting their kids.


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## richie33

I was agreeing with SBrown about not wanting my youngest to see what his brother is doing and mimic it. I take everyone advice and then decide what's best for me and my family. I learn a lot from this site.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lyris

Sbrown said:


> What if your child refuses to help clean the walls? By not disciplining your child you are doing more damage than by spanking them. Lol Ive known so many parents that think they're lil hellions are angels. You have yet to describe how you discipline your children?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Just in case that was a genuine question, and by the repeated lols, I'm thinking probably not, this is what I do;

I understand what's normal, how kids' brains develop and what is reasonable to expect in the way of impulse control. Ie in a 17 month old, not much. 

I also look at what need a child is trying to meet by engaging in a behaviour. If its exploration, I provide safe things to explore. If it's attention or connection, I find ways to give more of that. if it's movement or fun, we jump in the trampoline, go to the park, dance or ride bikes. 

I pick my battles. Light switches? No big deal. Hitting someone? Big deal. Clothes choice? Negotiable. Having a bath after you've been playing in mud? Not negotiable. 

Last night my five year old was tired and whiny. She didn't want to have a bath, or maybe she was just feeling negative about everything. She's too big and strong for me to manhandle into the bath, so I told her firmly that until she got into the bath there would be no stories, no tv, no playing, end of story. And I would have stuck to it, following her around for as long as necessary. Because she knows this, because I've been reliable and consistent since she was born, I didn't have to wait long, and she got in the bath. 

If my kids refused to clean up, same thing. Nothing else would happen until they did. Nothing. Very occasionally, when they were very young I would tell them, "You can clean this up, or I can help your hand do it" and I would take their hand in mine and basically make them clean whatever it was. But that's a last resort.

It takes energy to parent like this. Energy, patience, thought and creativity. I don't always succeed, I've never smacked, but I've yelled. But I don't kid myself that it helps, beyond stopping the immediate behaviour. It doesn't do anything to build trust, or self-discipline or understanding of the world.


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## that_girl

I don't know if it takes energy. That's mostly how I parent...and it doesn't seem like it takes effort.

But I'm good at ignoring whiny and butthole attitudes. I don't get upset if my kids cry or throw a fit. I wait until they talk to me to figure out the problem.

The only thing I really don't care about is my kids' rooms. As long as they are picked up once a week, I'm good. My mom was crazy stupid about me cleaning my room. It was MY ROOM and it had to be spotless...all the time. Screw that.


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## CantePe

I'm not fully "crunchy" but I am crispy.

However. A Berkeley study has shown that in moderation spanking does not cause long term harm to children.

Moderate Spanking Causes No Harm

08.24.2001 - UC Berkeley study finds no lasting harm among adolescents from moderate spanking earlier in childhood (this one is directly from Berkeley themselves)

I use it in moderation, not in anger and only when needed.


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## Lyris

Yeah, my mum was the same about my room. But I think she gave up eventually. My messiness wore her down.

It *does* take energy and patience. I homeschool my kids which means I'm around them nearly all the time. There are lots of times it would be easier to smack them to get them to do what I want, or what is convenient for me. 

It also takes thought and understanding about what is normal and age-appropriate expectations. Something that lots of adults don't have.


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## Sbrown

Lyris said:


> Just in case that was a genuine question, and by the repeated lols, I'm thinking probably not, this is what I do;
> 
> I understand what's normal, how kids' brains develop and what is reasonable to expect in the way of impulse control. Ie in a 17 month old, not much.
> 
> I also look at what need a child is trying to meet by engaging in a behaviour. If its exploration, I provide safe things to explore. If it's attention or connection, I find ways to give more of that. if it's movement or fun, we jump in the trampoline, go to the park, dance or ride bikes.
> 
> I pick my battles. Light switches? No big deal. Hitting someone? Big deal. Clothes choice? Negotiable. Having a bath after you've been playing in mud? Not negotiable.
> 
> Last night my five year old was tired and whiny. She didn't want to have a bath, or maybe she was just feeling negative about everything. She's too big and strong for me to manhandle into the bath, so I told her firmly that until she got into the bath there would be no stories, no tv, no playing, end of story. And I would have stuck to it, following her around for as long as necessary. Because she knows this, because I've been reliable and consistent since she was born, I didn't have to wait long, and she got in the bath.
> 
> If my kids refused to clean up, same thing. Nothing else would happen until they did. Nothing. Very occasionally, when they were very young I would tell them, "You can clean this up, or I can help your hand do it" and I would take their hand in mine and basically make them clean whatever it was. But that's a last resort.
> 
> It takes energy to parent like this. Energy, patience, thought and creativity. I don't always succeed, I've never smacked, but I've yelled. But I don't kid myself that it helps, beyond stopping the immediate behaviour. It doesn't do anything to build trust, or self-discipline or understanding of the world.


So the kids get to determine what they want to do you just make it safe for them? 

I can't believe you would assualt your child like that, forcing their hand? Why if you did that to an adult or an Alzheimer's patient you would be arrested for assualt! Come on now! These kids should be respected! 

Lol I can't believe you think it's about a light switch, the light switch is just a symptom of a bigger problem.


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## Lyris

Run the show? Did you read my post? I seriously don't know how you get 'run the show' from that.


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## Sbrown

I edited my post
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FirstYearDown

As I mentioned before, I am a woman who has survived REAL physical abuse.

When I read swatting a child compared to punching a woman, I feel very disgusted and offended.

People who have had easy lives tend to exaggerate normal discipline practices. They have had that luxury.


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## Lyris

I actually do think that forcing a child's hand is disrespectful and not ideal. It was a technique I learned when working with children with autism, but I'm uncomfortable with it and haven't used it for a long time. Haven't needed to either.

And FYD, I said that a man slapping or pushing his wife with the intent to intimidate or punish is no different from an adult hitting a child. You can use euphemisms like swat or pat all you want. It's a hit, and it's intended to hurt. 

I've been lucky in my life. I've never been personally abused by anyone. I've seen it though. I've worked with children who are victims of serious abuse, to the extent they were removed from their parents' care. The ability to cause that kind of harm to your own child stems from exactly the attitude I'm seeing in this thread. That children are worth less than adults. That children are the property of their parents. 

I'm very sorry you lived through serious abuse. I wish that violence against women and children at the hands of the people who are supposed to care for them was unacceptable. But it's not, and a big part of why it's not is that the physical punishment of children is accepted and applauded. 

Obviously the degree of seriousness is very different. But the underlying attitude is the same. Children (and women, and elderly people) are weaker and can be physically hurt with impunity. 

I am lucky enough to have been brought up without violence. I can see how it can be avoided, because I've lived it. It's harder for people who grew up with no other example to discipline their children in a gentle way. I do know lots of people who were smacked as children who are choosing other methods, but I haven't meet anyone who was not smacked as a child who is actively choosing to do so. They might be out there though.


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## FirstYearDown

Working with children who were abused is NOT the same as actually experiencing it. My ordeal taught me to distinguish between a swat and a punch. A light swat is intended to correct behavior, whereas a punch is about punishment and instilling unhealthy fear. 

The abuse that I survived gave me a certain strength. I also learned to be mindful of making poor choices from a wounded place. I learned forgiveness for my parents who were too ignorant and uneducated to know that what they were doing was wrong; they were blindly following how they had been raised. The road to hell is surely paved with good intentions; my parents did not want to end up with some ghetto trash daughter on welfare for life. They desperately wanted me to become a productive member of society and learn how harsh the world is at an early age.


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## Sbrown

Lyris said:


> I actually do think that forcing a child's hand is disrespectful and not ideal. It was a technique I learned when working with children with autism, but I'm uncomfortable with it and haven't used it for a long time. Haven't needed to either.
> 
> And FYD, I said that a man slapping or pushing his wife with the intent to intimidate or punish is no different from an adult hitting a child. You can use euphemisms like swat or pat all you want. It's a hit, and it's intended to hurt.
> 
> I've been lucky in my life. I've never been personally abused by anyone. I've seen it though. I've worked with children who are victims of serious abuse, to the extent they were removed from their parents' care. The ability to cause that kind of harm to your own child stems from exactly the attitude I'm seeing in this thread. That children are worth less than adults. That children are the property of their parents.
> 
> I'm very sorry you lived through serious abuse. I wish that violence against women and children at the hands of the people who are supposed to care for them was unacceptable. But it's not, and a big part of why it's not is that the physical punishment of children is accepted and applauded.
> 
> Obviously the degree of seriousness is very different. But the underlying attitude is the same. Children (and women, and elderly people) are weaker and can be physically hurt with impunity.
> 
> I am lucky enough to have been brought up without violence. I can see how it can be avoided, because I've lived it. It's harder for people who grew up with no other example to discipline their children in a gentle way. I do know lots of people who were smacked as children who are choosing other methods, but I haven't meet anyone who was not smacked as a child who is actively choosing to do so. They might be out there though.


So are you admitting to "assaulting" your children, but since you did it such a long time ago it's OK? 

Does impunity mean something different where you live? Because where I live it means, im·pu·ni·ty
[ im pynətee ] 

1. freedom from unpleasant consequences: exemption from punishment, harm, or recrimination

So do you think that it would be OK to use your method on women and the elderly? 

My son earns every hit he gets! It is a punishment of last resort, but it is very effective at getting results!

Good luck with your kids.


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## that_girl

Just raise your kids the way you raise your kids and let others raise their kids the way they want to raise them (that's the general you).

Our kids will still be getting into trouble together and having a grand time together as teens 

I don't get into the "mommy wars". It is sooo ridiculous. I was once told my child would have a low IQ because I couldn't breastfeed past 3 months :rofl: Oooookay. I should be a knuckle dragger because I was never breastfed.  :lol: Dude. My kids are happy and well adjusted little people who will someday be productive adults if my parenting has anything to say about it.


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## Lyris

Sbrown said:


> So are you admitting to "assaulting" your children, but since you did it such a long time ago it's OK?
> 
> Does impunity mean something different where you live? Because where I live it means, im·pu·ni·ty
> [ im pynətee ]
> 
> 1. freedom from unpleasant consequences: exemption from punishment, harm, or recrimination
> 
> So do you think that it would be OK to use your method on women and the elderly?
> 
> My son earns every hit he gets! It is a punishment of last resort, but it is very effective at getting results!
> 
> Good luck with your kids.


No, I'm not admitting to assaulting my kids, because moving someone's hand is not assault. I don't think it would be okay to forcibly move an adults hand, especially if you were in a caring role because it's disrespectful and could be used with too much force.

I don't use it with my kids anymore either, because I felt uncomfortable about it, as it is, as I said, disrespectful,and relies on the disparity in physical strength and power between us. I don't have any problem with analyzing my parenting and realizing I did something less than ideal and so changing. 

Adults hit children every day and suffer no recriminations or any other ill effects. Men hit women and aren't prosecuted or punished. So yeah, impunity fits perfectly.

The thought of an adult hitting a baby and then claiming he earns every hit he gets is distressing me more than is good for me. I won't be returning to this thread.


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## Sbrown

Lyris said:


> No, I'm not admitting to assaulting my kids, because moving someone's hand is not assault. *If you forcibly moved an adults hand you could very well be charged with assault! * I don't think it would be okay to forcibly move an adults hand, especially if you were in a caring role because it's disrespectful and could be used with too much force.
> 
> I don't use it with my kids anymore either, because I felt uncomfortable about it, as it is, as I said, disrespectful,and relies on the disparity in physical strength and power between us. I don't have any problem with analyzing my parenting and realizing I did something less than ideal and so changing.
> 
> Adults hit children every day and suffer no recriminations or any other ill effects. Men hit women and aren't prosecuted or punished. So yeah, impunity fits perfectly.
> 
> The thought of an adult hitting a baby and then claiming he earns every hit he gets is distressing me more than is good for me. I won't be returning to this thread.*Good luck!*


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