# Infidelity and verbal abuse



## totalfive21 (Jun 25, 2014)

I am now four years out from D-Day of my husband's EA. According to him it was just an EA, and that's all I have evidence of, but who knows. We "reconciled" -- or he rugswept and I didn't push it. We have a young son, which is the primary reason I didn't want to divorce.

I have mentioned this in some of my past posts -- my husband has a history of being verbally abusive toward me. It happens when he gets angry about something, not like every day put downs or anything, but when it does occur he can be downright vicious. His episodes occurred much more frequently when our son was a baby and a toddler. He often perceived that I was not vigilant enough or not caring for the child correctly, which set him off. Now that our son is a bit older, it happens less. But it still does occur, for example if we travel or go on a vacation he's in prime mode to attack me verbally over anything.

I think during those difficult years with his more frequent outbursts, I started to emotionally detach from him. This may have led to his EA. 

Even though I have been resentful over the rugsweeping of the EA, part of me has felt that it's still worth it to stay in the marriage because of my son, who knows nothing about that infidelity. When it comes to the verbal abuse, however, my son is aware because he sees it. My son would still be devastated if I broke up the family over this, but perhaps more understanding in the long run. I don't want to bring up the infidelity to him.

I guess I am posting to see if others out there have experience with this link between infidelity and abusive personalities. Infidelity is certainly a form of abuse itself. Do others have experience with the WS also being abusive in other ways?

Thank you for reading.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

totalfive21 said:


> I think during those difficult years with his more frequent outbursts, I started to emotionally detach from him. This may have led to his EA.


Scuse me???? WTF is this - something YOU did led to HIS EA?!?!?! That's bu11sh1t. 

Get your head out of the sand here woman - get rid of this guy. He's an a$$ and a jerk. Staying together for your son is an EXCUSE because you don't want to do the hard thing, the thing you KNOW would be better for everyone involved. You may think your son knows nothing about the infidelity but usually they know WAY WAY more than we think. By staying, you're teaching your son that it's OK to be a doormat and rugsweep an affair!!


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I have to agree with Hope. Your son is an excuse because divorce would be hard, so you convince yourself it's best. 

I mean, what if your son was devastated that he couldn't stay at his friends house with no parents around?

Are other decisions made based on what would "devastate" your son?

You're the parent, and you've demonstrated that this is marriage. Maybe he'll treat his wife the same way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## totalfive21 (Jun 25, 2014)

Of course you all are correct. My husband sure has known when to back off and be sweet for months on end, making the incident of abuse seem distant. I also think he has a selective memory about the incidents -- if I bring up something he said to me and how he said it, he doesn't seem to recall.


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## FoghornLeghorn (Nov 15, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> Scuse me???? WTF is this - something YOU did led to HIS EA?!?!?! That's bu11sh1t.
> 
> Get your head out of the sand here woman - get rid of this guy. He's an a$$ and a jerk. Staying together for your son is an EXCUSE because you don't want to do the hard thing, the thing you KNOW would be better for everyone involved. You may think your son knows nothing about the infidelity but usually they know WAY WAY more than we think. By staying, you're teaching your son that it's OK to be a doormat and rugsweep an affair!!


I can understand why an EA would be the result of her pulling back. That's not head in sand, that's called mature reflection. I don't hear her blaming herself, but trying to account for whether or not to try to heal the marriage or continue on. It's a reasonable approach.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

FoghornLeghorn said:


> I can understand why an EA would be the result of her pulling back.


BULL. HE had the EA. Problems in a marriage are NOT an excuse to cheat. EVER. And a BS allowing themselves to take ANY of the blame is totally destructive to any hope of a true R.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

When a marriage is in trouble, each spouse has 4 choices.
- do nothing
- work on it
- cheat
- divorce

The choice they make is 100% on them, NOT on their spouse. If someone chooses to cheat rather than do one of the oth er 3 choices, it's THEIR choice.

The state of the marriage is attributable to both spouses, and they both have a responsibility to work on the marriage and make it better. That DOES NOT include cheating. And it doesn't include drawing back emotionally, or anything else that people tend to do when things aren't going the way they want them to. But for one partner to use the others human failings as a reason to cheat is REPREHENSIBLE.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

FoghornLeghorn said:


> I can understand why an EA would be the result of her pulling back. That's not head in sand, that's called mature reflection. I don't hear her blaming herself, but trying to account for whether or not to try to heal the marriage or continue on. It's a reasonable approach.


Watch it *Fog!* TAMS [mostly united] foot soldiers will blow their *horn* and you will end up with not a foot in your mouth but the whole * leg.*


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Hope1964 said:


> When a marriage is in trouble, each spouse has 4 choices.
> 
> - do nothing
> 
> ...




The marriage in trouble is 95% of the problem. Those 4 choices are just the last 5%.


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## totalfive21 (Jun 25, 2014)

I should clarify that I do not believe that my pulling back emotionally was an excuse for his EA. Totally agree with Hope and others that his EA is his own doing, his own choice, and he cannot blame it on me or my behavior.

He is someone who is deeply flawed regardless. His abusive behavior demonstrated that well before the EA. Then he starts getting some attention "kibbles" (Chumplady term) from another woman, and his flawed character responds and acts on it.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

So what do you want from us on TAM, you have already made your decision to stay?


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## Lostme (Nov 14, 2014)

You are teaching your son, this is how to treat women. He will grow up thinking how his father treated you is how he should treat his wife.

Sorry but your son is already being hurt by it.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

I suspect he doesn't actually remember the details of his outbursts if they're infrequent. They're likely emotional in nature and we're not rationally thinking when we behave emotionally and aren't as likely to file the details the same way.

I know my W HATES to upset me in any way - codependency, rather than my issues - and I don't mind honestly responding in an upset fashion if I'm upset. When you have a codependent / avoidant person and a straight forward person in a situation in which they disagree, then you have situations where both parties recall the situation differently and respond differently.

I'm not saying H isn't a jerk. I honestly don't know. And he may be abusive emotionally at times, but some of it might be your reluctance to have disagreements.

Anyway, my point - that I somehow lost on the train here  - is that men and women often think differently. I am usually NEVER an emotional thinker. So I simply don't "store" the emotional content in my memories. I think that's VERY different from how many women remember emotion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Counselling might be an option, including anger management for your husband.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

totalfive21 said:


> I am now four years out from D-Day of my husband's EA. According to him it was just an EA, and that's all I have evidence of, but who knows. We "reconciled" -- or he rugswept and I didn't push it. We have a young son, which is the primary reason I didn't want to divorce.
> 
> I have mentioned this in some of my past posts -- my husband has a history of being verbally abusive toward me. It happens when he gets angry about something, not like every day put downs or anything, but when it does occur he can be downright vicious. His episodes occurred much more frequently when our son was a baby and a toddler. He often perceived that I was not vigilant enough or not caring for the child correctly, which set him off. Now that our son is a bit older, it happens less. But it still does occur, for example if we travel or go on a vacation he's in prime mode to attack me verbally over anything.


This does sound like emotional abuse. Can you give specifics of his attacks?



> I think during those difficult years with his more frequent outbursts, I started to emotionally detach from him. This may have led to his EA.


He carries the responsibility of his actions. That said, we can predict that with disconnection will come affair,divorce or both. Your responsibility is to maintain your end, and if you can't, then it could be grounds for separation.

I've been abused before and it was my responsibility to leave. Otherwise, the pattern persists. Abusèrs Can change, but that requires work from him and you. Absent of his effort to change, expect no change. Then it is up to you whether to accept this behavior.



> Even though I have been resentful over the rugsweeping of the EA, part of me has felt that it's still worth it to stay in the marriage because of my son, who knows nothing about that infidelity. When it comes to the verbal abuse, however, my son is aware because he sees it. My son would still be devastated if I broke up the family over this, but perhaps more understanding in the long run. I don't want to bring up the infidelity to him.
> 
> I guess I am posting to see if others out there have experience with this link between infidelity and abusive personalities. Infidelity is certainly a form of abuse itself. Do others have experience with the WS also being abusive in other ways?
> 
> Thank you for reading.


What about you?

What about your feelings?

Your family will probably be a lot more understAnding than you expect. If they are not, do you accept abuse? I promise you that your family wont verbally attack you.

Choose to no longer be a victim and see where that leads you. There arw a lot of skills you can use to disarm him, assuming he is not physical. That assumes he is able to be changed
Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## totalfive21 (Jun 25, 2014)

Relationship Teacher said:


> This does sound like emotional abuse. Can you give specifics of his attacks?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for this, and to all who have responded. As for specifics of the attacks, the worst were ones when my son was very young, when he indirectly threatened to hit me ("shut your mouth or I'll shut it for you!") after I dared to defend myself by arguing back. Months later, when I reminded him of those words, he did not recall at all. 

I do not feel physically threatened in any way now, but that doesn't mean the verbal attacks don't hurt. More recently, the situations have involved getting lost while trying to follow directions somewhere, him not liking hotels I have chosen, etc. His behavior has included the dagger-eyed looks intended just for me, muttering under his breath that I don't "heed him" and calling me a "b%&#ch" through gritted teeth and a snarl in his voice. Dragging out the anger over at least two days, not apologizing, and him being the one who gets to decide when the episode is over (i.e. when he starts acting normal again).

Regarding suggestions of counseling, he ruled it out completely after I suggested it after the EA. I went by myself a few times, but didn't connect with the therapist. I am thinking of going again to someone else, just me, to help sort out my feelings.

Agree with you that my family would not hold anything against me, but I don't have much family to speak of. Parents are deceased, one sister who lives out of state and has her own immediate family. Really I am speaking of my son not wanting to be from a broken home. Of course I agree that being divorced is better than him being around this kind of treatment. But as I mentioned, it happens infrequently. Another angle to my feelings is the lingering resentment about the EA four years ago. On top of dealing with emotional outbursts.

You asked about my feelings. I am truly "torn" about what to do. On the one hand I love my husband. I want to help him get help. I want to forgive him for the EA. On the other, I know I deserve better. I am not even thinking about or referring to another relationship in the future. By "better" I mean living in peace and freedom and ending the hurt/resentment over the EA. I came to TAM to vent my feelings and bounce ideas off of members. Thank you for reading.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

blueinbr said:


> The marriage in trouble is 95% of the problem. Those 4 choices are just the last 5%.


You totally don't get it do you?


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Hope1964 said:


> You totally don't get it do you?




We differ on this issue.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

totalfive21 said:


> Of course you all are correct. My husband sure has known when to back off and be sweet for months on end, making the incident of abuse seem distant. I also think he has a selective memory about the incidents -- if I bring up something he said to me and how he said it, he doesn't seem to recall.


There are two things you can do; one more effective than the other. The first is to buy a recorder, keep it charged, and keep it in your pocket, always. Any time he is in 'that mood' (you know what I'm talking about), turn it on. If you use it often enough, start downloading the tapes onto a permanent recording. Keep it somewhere not at home.

The second is to buy a little pocket notebook and keep it in your pocket and write down what he says and date it. Everything. Keep a good record so that anyone else looking at it could tell you are being very thorough. If he ever says 'I never said that,' just pull out the notebook, find the conversation, and read it back to him. 

Now, that's not going to fix your abuse. But it can address that one issue in it.

As for the verbal abuse. Here's what my IC told me to do, and it REALLY works. The next time he becomes angry, rude, or loud, calmly say "I don't deserve to be talked to like this" and turn around and leave the room; take your kids with you. Go do something else for 15 minutes, then return. If he tries to bring it up again while being decent, stay; if he tries to ramp it up again, don't even say a word, just LEAVE. Stay gone 30 minutes. Come back. Rinse and repeat. 

You may have to escalate it. I've suggested the following next steps, if they just don't get it and have to keep having the last word or just wait for you to get back so they can berate you or put you in your place:

Leave the house for 30 minutes
Leave the house for 2 hours (drive somewhere)
Pack an overnight back and leave for the night
Pack for a few days and leave for 2 nights
Leave for a week
Leave for a month

Now, remember, he's likely never seen you like this, so he may panic and up the ante to get you back under control. Only do what you feel safe doing, and wait for the next opportunity.

But if you make it clear you will no longer be allowing him to disrespect you, especially in front of your child, he'll have a choice to make: LEARN to respect you, or observe as you slowly file out of his life.

btw, it really does work. I've had to do it a few times, and now I no longer even have to say anything: he treats me poorly, I give him 'that look,' I turn away without a word, and he's stuck by himself. His rate of raging at me has gone from once or twice a month to maybe once every few months.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

totalfive21 said:


> By "better" I mean living in peace and freedom and ending the hurt/resentment over the EA. I came to TAM to vent my feelings and bounce ideas off of members.


I suspect the reason you still have lingering hurt/resentment is in large part, because you allowed him to rug sweep the A; and because you're unsure if it went physical. You should assume it did if he can't prove otherwise. Cheaters generally only admit to what they know you know. In other words - they lie; just about every time. 

In reading between the lines, I wonder if you rug swept because you fear his verbal abuse if you try to discuss it. Add in his refusal to go to MC and it's obvious that he is not genuinely remorseful.

Bad enough that he's verbally abusive at times - particularly when he should be bending over backwards to be a better husband; worse that he doesn't give a rat's @ss about helping you heal.

You don't have to accept that and you shouldn't. That's exactly what I'd tell him. If he doesn't turn around, you can opt for divorce. And if you do, he can't say you didn't give him the chance to save his marriage - and even more important; you will know you gave him that chance.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

totalfive21 said:


> I agree that being divorced is better than him being around this kind of treatment. But as I mentioned, it happens infrequently.


I, too, stayed to keep DD from being from a broken home (but more because I was afraid of the confrontation if I told him I was leaving). Today, she's 26, lived away for school for 4 years, and has been living with her boyfriend for almost a year now. And even today, when making major decisions, her VERY FIRST thought is 'will this make dad mad?'. 

That's no way to live. I try hard to push her out of that thinking. But it became ingrained in her from growing up with a negative person who only 'infrequently' became angry. And from watching ME tiptoe around him so as to not piss him off.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

You are doing your son ZERO FAVORS by staying with this man! What a horrible example he is being subjected to! The man ( and I use that term loosely) is not worth your effort, and your son deserves better.


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## totalfive21 (Jun 25, 2014)

turnera said:


> There are two things you can do; one more effective than the other. The first is to buy a recorder, keep it charged, and keep it in your pocket, always. Any time he is in 'that mood' (you know what I'm talking about), turn it on. If you use it often enough, start downloading the tapes onto a permanent recording. Keep it somewhere not at home.
> 
> The second is to buy a little pocket notebook and keep it in your pocket and write down what he says and date it. Everything. Keep a good record so that anyone else looking at it could tell you are being very thorough. If he ever says 'I never said that,' just pull out the notebook, find the conversation, and read it back to him.
> 
> ...


Again, thank you to everyone for replying. Turnera, regarding your specific suggestions... I do have a recorder. I bought a VAR a couple of years ago to try to catch him in any subsequent infidelity. It turned up nothing, but maybe I didn't keep it in the car long enough. I have since purchased a pen recorder (at the suggestion of a TAM member) because it would be easier to fit into the tight space underneath the seat in the car. I haven't actually placed it yet (although the velcro is there waiting). Good point about how I could also use it just to keep on me to record incidents of verbal abuse.

Regarding the little notebook of incidents, I have one. I keep it at my work so he can't ever find it in the house. I keep it mostly to remind me of what he has done in the past. It's about 7 years old now. As for your suggested response, about not tolerating being spoken to like that, essentially that's what I do, without actually packing a bag because I'd want to bring my son with me and he's in school, etc. You mentioned that your response has decreased the incidents to only once every few months. That's about the level we are at anyway. That's the question -- is that frequency okay? I know that it is not -- what is your opinion? You mentioned that your daughter still says/thinks "how will dad react?". 

I realize that I am certainly answering my own question here. I knew that folks would give me a hard time, like "what are you doing with this jerk -- leave now". And that's part of why I am here, to get that sanity check.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

totalfive21 said:


> You mentioned that your response has decreased the incidents to only once every few months. That's about the level we are at anyway. That's the question -- is that frequency okay?


No.

It has to get to the point where you have zero tolerance.


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## totalfive21 (Jun 25, 2014)

badmemory said:


> I suspect the reason you still have lingering hurt/resentment is in large part, because you allowed him to rug sweep the A; and because you're unsure if it went physical. You should assume it did if he can't prove otherwise. Cheaters generally only admit to what they know you know. In other words - they lie; just about every time.
> 
> In reading between the lines, I wonder if you rug swept because you fear his verbal abuse if you try to discuss it. Add in his refusal to go to MC and it's obvious that he is not genuinely remorseful.
> 
> ...


Badmemory, you are right in reading between the lines. I have not continued to bring up the EA because I fear verbal abuse if I do.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

totalfive21 said:


> Badmemory, you are right in reading between the lines. I have not continued to bring up the EA because I fear verbal abuse if I do.


Dear, if you want to have a genuine R and not to have to tip toe around him the rest of your life; you have to be willing to end your marriage to have the best chance of saving it. We say that a lot here because it's so true for many BS's.

Let him know that you can't control him, but that you can control what you accept from him. And that you're not going to accept his verbal abuse, unwillingness to go to MC and his general lack of remorse - Any..Damn..More.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Just one thought. 

Your son is learning it is ok for a guy to treat girl the way your husband is treating you. As long as it continues with no consequences you are doing more harm to your son staying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

totalfive21 said:


> Thanks for this, and to all who have responded. As for specifics of the attacks, the worst were ones when my son was very young, when he indirectly threatened to hit me ("shut your mouth or I'll shut it for you!") after I dared to defend myself by arguing back. Months later, when I reminded him of those words, he did not recall at all.


The basis for "abuse" or various threats is the implication. We are animals, in the sense that much of our heredity is still based on survival. A threat of a physical action is a pretty reasonable one to take seriously, which means an appropriate emotional reaction (not a good feeling).



> I do not feel physically threatened in any way now, but that doesn't mean the verbal attacks don't hurt. More recently, the situations have involved getting lost while trying to follow directions somewhere, him not liking hotels I have chosen, etc. His behavior has included the dagger-eyed looks intended just for me, muttering under his breath that I don't "heed him" and calling me a "b%&#ch" through gritted teeth and a snarl in his voice. Dragging out the anger over at least two days, not apologizing, and him being the one who gets to decide when the episode is over (i.e. when he starts acting normal again).


His not physically threatening you now is the only reason I can give any advice. To be the one that instigates change, you have to be very durable, as others don't like to follow along. Others use emotional manipulation to get you to back down. When you no longer respond the same way to his emotional abuse, it can (usually at first) enrage them further. Any hint of physical harm (in my opinion) means one leaves immediately. We are in this thing called "love" for some semblance of respect and romance.

H is a textbook manipulator. The good thing is that I understand where he comes from. All of his externalized negativity comes from inner weakness. Things will stay the same as long as he gets angry and you get angry/sad in response. His words are meant to get a rise out of you. If you stop playing that game, things can change. That said, it is not easy to begin to disassociate meaning and emotion from words that have hurt you for so long.





> Regarding suggestions of counseling, he ruled it out completely after I suggested it after the EA. I went by myself a few times, but didn't connect with the therapist. I am thinking of going again to someone else, just me, to help sort out my feelings.


He got upset and you didn't push for it.



> Agree with you that my family would not hold anything against me, but I don't have much family to speak of. Parents are deceased, one sister who lives out of state and has her own immediate family. Really I am speaking of my son not wanting to be from a broken home. Of course I agree that being divorced is better than him being around this kind of treatment. But as I mentioned, it happens infrequently. Another angle to my feelings is the lingering resentment about the EA four years ago. On top of dealing with emotional outbursts.



1. You deserve to get over the EA. He has to come clean and fully apologize. Then it is all you.
2. Infrequency doesn't matter, when you have the anxiety between outbursts.
3. There is no easy solution. Divorce changes lives. Staying means continuing in this treatment or hopefully working to get some improvement.


> You asked about my feelings. I am truly "torn" about what to do. On the one hand I love my husband. I want to help him get help. I want to forgive him for the EA. On the other, I know I deserve better. I am not even thinking about or referring to another relationship in the future. By "better" I mean living in peace and freedom and ending the hurt/resentment over the EA. I came to TAM to vent my feelings and bounce ideas off of members. Thank you for reading.


Your feelings always matter. Emotion is incredibly important. That said, we wish to have appropriate emotions for the situation. That is where Emotional Intelligence and Mindfulness come in. The goal is to be happy and be in an environment that makes emotional regulation easy. You are in an environment that lacks empathy>sympathy. He empathizes, but I see that it is used for negative reasons. This relationship is about him. It is that universe revolving around the Earth model (analogously). Others' feelings do matter and your feelings shouldn't be a cost to him.

Ultimately, it comes down to how much you love him and how strong you can be. You matter very much. Don't lose any belief in that, no matter what you are told from H.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

totalfive21 said:


> Again, thank you to everyone for replying. Turnera, regarding your specific suggestions... I do have a recorder. I bought a VAR a couple of years ago to try to catch him in any subsequent infidelity. It turned up nothing, but maybe I didn't keep it in the car long enough. I have since purchased a pen recorder (at the suggestion of a TAM member) because it would be easier to fit into the tight space underneath the seat in the car. I haven't actually placed it yet (although the velcro is there waiting). Good point about how I could also use it just to keep on me to record incidents of verbal abuse.
> 
> Regarding the little notebook of incidents, I have one. I keep it at my work so he can't ever find it in the house. I keep it mostly to remind me of what he has done in the past. It's about 7 years old now. As for your suggested response, about not tolerating being spoken to like that, essentially that's what I do, without actually packing a bag because I'd want to bring my son with me and he's in school, etc. You mentioned that your response has decreased the incidents to only once every few months. That's about the level we are at anyway. That's the question -- is that frequency okay? I know that it is not -- what is your opinion? You mentioned that your daughter still says/thinks "how will dad react?".
> 
> I realize that I am certainly answering my own question here. I knew that folks would give me a hard time, like "what are you doing with this jerk -- leave now". And that's part of why I am here, to get that sanity check.


The point of the recorder or book is to let him SEE you recording his words and actions. Put him on notice that you're not taking it anymore. 

And no, there IS no frequency that is ok. Your kids watch you like a hawk; you are their world. Everything they learn, until they hit about 12, comes from their home. 

DD26's dad wasn't mean and horrible; he was passive aggressive, and a major guilt-tripper, which seems less detrimental. But it taught her to judge everything she wanted against what kind of reaction she'd get. She'll probably never get over that. The worst thing, though, was her watching me NOT standing up to him. How would she know how to stand up to him if she never saw ME doing it?


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

totalfive21 said:


> Thanks for this, and to all who have responded. As for specifics of the attacks, the worst were ones when my son was very young, when he indirectly threatened to hit me ("shut your mouth or I'll shut it for you!") after I dared to defend myself by arguing back. Months later, when I reminded him of those words, he did not recall at all.
> 
> I do not feel physically threatened in any way now, but that doesn't mean the verbal attacks don't hurt. More recently, the situations have involved getting lost while trying to follow directions somewhere, him not liking hotels I have chosen, etc. His behavior has included the dagger-eyed looks intended just for me, muttering under his breath that I don't "heed him" and calling me a "b%&#ch" through gritted teeth and a snarl in his voice. Dragging out the anger over at least two days, not apologizing, and him being the one who gets to decide when the episode is over (i.e. when he starts acting normal again).
> 
> ...


Record his outbursts and play them back to him the next time it happens, easy to do if you have a smart phone. (I've done this when my drunken H was verbally abusive, he would conveniently forget what he said the next day, hard to do that when there is hard evidence of behaviour).

Go and get yourself some IC so that you can become stronger and build up your self esteem so as to not allow your H or anyone else to do this to you. YOu also need healing for the EA.
Leave him be for the time being and build yourself up, become a great mom and friend, if he wants to go on the journey with you then let him but if he doesn't leave him behind. 
Also consider getting new skills and qualifications so that you are independent. Your kid will eventually grow bigger and you can go work and be less dependent on your H
If he doesn't improve you are paving the way to get out.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

turnera said:


> I, too, stayed to keep DD from being from a broken home (but more because I was afraid of the confrontation if I told him I was leaving). Today, she's 26, lived away for school for 4 years, and has been living with her boyfriend for almost a year now. And even today, when making major decisions, her VERY FIRST thought is 'will this make dad mad?'.
> 
> That's no way to live. I try hard to push her out of that thinking. But it became ingrained in her from growing up with a negative person who only 'infrequently' became angry. And from watching ME tiptoe around him so as to not piss him off.


Tunera, you are still with him? How is it going?


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

aine said:


> if he wants to go on the journey with you then let him but if he doesn't leave him behind.
> Also consider getting new skills and qualifications so that you are independent. Your kid will eventually grow bigger and you can go work and be less dependent on your H
> If he doesn't improve you are paving the way to get out.


Some good points


I lay out a 3-stage plan to fix a relationship. The more emotionally resilient we are, the more we can do to save a marriage with lower but progressing amounts of friction. The average relationship completely skips my first stage, tending to Operate in a late stage 2 or stage 3. We exist in a world where everything isn’t perfect and I never advise reciprocity. We can still be firm and not have to resort to our own externalized negativity. It isn’t the norm because of the victim culture we know so well. The most powerful weapon in our arsenal is not taking other people’s insults or actions personally. Even if we do (to a degree) we can employ self-regulation to still restrict any externalized negativity.

The final point to ending a relationship shouldn’t be bitter arguments, but the beginning of emotional and physical distance.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

aine said:


> Tunera, you are still with him? How is it going?


It's tolerable. Hardly a day goes by that he doesn't say something negative and I don't cringe. All I want most days is to wake up and not hear the negativity. 

But other than that, he's a good husband. He's earnest and he really loves us and wants us to be happy; he's just incapable of understanding how to stop being negative. I used to think it was all his fault, but I've since learned it's my fault more than his because I never learned to put myself equal to anyone. Even my own kid; if she wanted something, I'd give it up so she could have it. With him, it was worse because he was so willing to be in charge and make all the decisions, all the while thinking he was doing right by me. 

It's taken me years of therapy to not only hear that I mattered, but to start to walk through my life FEELING like and BELIEVING that I mattered. Still working on it. 

We're horribly in debt and I don't believe in bankruptcy, and I'm getting us out of debt; once I do that, I'll have to make a decision on whether to stay or not.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

turnera said:


> It's tolerable. Hardly a day goes by that he doesn't say something negative and I don't cringe. All I want most days is to wake up and not hear the negativity.
> 
> But other than that, he's a good husband. He's earnest and he really loves us and wants us to be happy; he's just incapable of understanding how to stop being negative. I used to think it was all his fault, but I've since learned it's my fault more than his because I never learned to put myself equal to anyone. Even my own kid; if she wanted something, I'd give it up so she could have it. With him, it was worse because he was so willing to be in charge and make all the decisions, all the while thinking he was doing right by me.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you had a difficult childhood, childhood emotional neglect maybe? Putting everyone and everything before yourself even when you resent them.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It's all I knew.


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## totalfive21 (Jun 25, 2014)

Update -- now we're in one of those periods that H either consciously or unconsciously times to a T. He is no longer angry as he was two weekends ago...overcame that episode but without apologizing for the vicious lashing-out at me. He is attentive, listening, sweet, etc. I swear it's bipolar on his part. He has family-of-origin (FOO) issues for sure, including a family history of mental illness, yet is a functioning working member of society and, in my opinion, cannot use his background as an excuse for his sometimes explosive behavior.

So I, like so many others, are left with lingering resentment. Over both the past infidelity AND the repeated incidents of verbal abuse. Like "Bad Memory" diagnosed, my fear that he will lash out at me has kept me from pushing the idea of counseling for him, either for the past EA or for his own issues.

I am financially independent (at least to get by okay) because of my job, which I would never give up. Thank goodness I have that. I would not enjoy the same lifestyle I do now if I got divorced, which is fine with me. I'm thinking of all the disruption for my son though. A messy divorce, a potential move to a different house/neighborhood, a potential restraining order, etc. I actually calculate if I should stay until my son is in college. 

Even with all these considerations, part of me still loves my husband.

Thank you again for reading.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

This is a pattern. One that will continue into eternity. I've been there...the explosion, followed by silent treatment, followed by no apology once they start talking again, sweet, then explosion again. Lather, rinse, repeat. FOREVER. 

You are doing your son a total disservice by staying with this man. He is being shown a sick relationship dynamic, as well as how to be abusive to their spouse. Not to mention him having to deal with the blowups. NO child deserves to live this way. If you wont end it for you, end it for HIM.


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## totalfive21 (Jun 25, 2014)

3Xnocharm said:


> This is a pattern. One that will continue into eternity. I've been there...the explosion, followed by silent treatment, followed by no apology once they start talking again, sweet, then explosion again. Lather, rinse, repeat. FOREVER.
> 
> You are doing your son a total disservice by staying with this man. He is being shown a sick relationship dynamic, as well as how to be abusive to their spouse. Not to mention him having to deal with the blowups. NO child deserves to live this way. If you wont end it for you, end it for HIM.


Hearing your experience is very helpful. Thank you. This is why I am here. To get these stories.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

totalfive21 said:


> I'm thinking of all the disruption for my son though. A messy divorce, a potential move to a different house/neighborhood, a potential restraining order, etc. I actually calculate if I should stay until my son is in college.


Instead, why not calculate the likelihood that your son will grow up to be as abusive as his dad? Every day this is the only home he knows, he becomes more likely to do so. 

Your son needs to grow up in a home without abuse, control, anger, manipulation; we become what we see. 

I, too, stayed out of fear of 'dealing with' the issues of leaving. Now my DD26 will have to deal with the issues of staying that have become part of her now, for the rest of her life. 

If nothing else, you separating will give him a reason to finally look at himself in the mirror and ask himself if he wants to change to earn you two back. 

But if you stay, the only certainty you have is that things will only get worse.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

totalfive21 said:


> Hearing your experience is very helpful. Thank you. This is why I am here. To get these stories.


So what are you going to DO with these stories? And guess what? They aren't stories. They're sad, painful, LIVES people have lived because they (we), too, were too afraid to leave.

Have you read Why Does He Do That? yet?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Many on here want the horrible husband, the one who had an affair to fade and let the Good Man in him take charge. Where is this guy?

I hear that he had an emotional affair. This type of affair requires love, compassion, listening skills. It requires a face capable of smiling. Who are we talking about here?

There is no alter ego with this WH. He has one head. He is not a Janus entity. Does he have a split personality? Yea, yea, that's it. 

The head that he wears directly centered on his shoulders is the only one that shows up for Role Call, the only one that shows up for dinner.

Wishing and hoping he will get the message and change into the better SMURF is "mere" WISHFUL THINKING.

Some people can change. Some people can change because "it is in them" to do so.

This guy is no Chameleon, He is a lizard of a different genre. I see him now, he is a Gila Monster.

Let him go and latch onto some other poor women. 

YOU, Dear OP.......get a man who loves you and your son.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=49770&thumb=1


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

turnera said:


> *I used to think it was all his fault, but I've since learned it's my fault more than his because I never learned to put myself equal to anyone. *


Dear, dear, turnera,

Pardon me, but I think you are being too hard on yourself, and in such a way that tends to keep people stuck.

Sure, own what you can change about yourself, because it is the only thing you can change and because you deserve to reap the rewards.

But, please, don't own his part. It's not necessary, and it's not truthful.

Yes, you were vulnerable and made mistakes in how you handled his abuse, but you weren't exactly prepared for it, and that's not your fault.

I understand there is immense value in seeing what one can do differently now and moving forward. I understand getting a little pissed off at one's own recent choices can give one a little motivation boost to choose differently next time. But, please, please, please be kind when you look back at your younger self, struggling to comprehend and cope with what you didn't ask for. Please have some compassion for who you were at the time.

Do you suppose you hold it against yourself, now, that you didn't handle him differently then? If so, do you suppose that sort of self-blame/contempt insidiously leaves you feeling less worthy, leaves you feeling as if maybe you really don't deserve peace and contentment? If so, can you imagine what it would feel like to lovingly and compassionately forgive your younger selves?

(Apologies if I've misread you. But considering I happen to like and respect you, I felt the need to say I didn't like you owning something that is not yours.)


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

totalfive21 said:


> You asked about my feelings. I am truly "torn" about what to do. On the one hand I love my husband. I want to help him get help. I want to forgive him for the EA. On the other, I know I deserve better. I am not even thinking about or referring to another relationship in the future. By "better" I mean living in peace and freedom and ending the hurt/resentment over the EA.


The risk is the longer this goes on, the notion of "better" fades, and eventually you stop remembering what you had hoped for, what you thought you deserved. You start to feel the occasional scraps you've gotten are all that you deserved. You'll worry that when your son contemplates his future, he'll not even see the possibility of finding joy in this life with another; you'll worry he equates relationships with loss, with atrophy of the soul, of possibilities surrendered rather than multiplied.

Soul-crushing years take a toll on the body, too. Energy wasted chronically vacillating on leaving vs. staying, or accepting him as-is vs. hoping for change, is energy not spent on self-care, and the effects over a long period of time are difficult to imagine in the beginning.

In the end, what's the sacrifice for? So the other didn't have to bear the consequences of his behavior, who he is, how he treats people, the blatant disinterest in even seeing if there's something he could and should change about himself to make it possible for those servicing his life to sneak a bit of joy into their existence before this lifetime is gone?

If you're going to make a sacrifice of your life, so he is not inconvenienced by the need to treat you decently, let alone with love, then see it for what it is: the sacrifice of a good, decent, loving being's lifetime -- for someone that couldn't be bothered to show up and play honestly and play nice.

I think you should allow yourself to imagine "better" -- even, no, especially, a "better" that includes someone that lets you have peace, helps you have peace and contentment. Imagine yourself waking up next to someone that cherishes your existence, and rather than rigidly being unable or unwilling to look inward and reflect on whether he is living up to his potential as a man and as a loving partner in life, he naturally does that, as you do similarly, and so days and nights together aren't drudgery, but something treasured. And, your son watches you over the years, and he sees what goodness life can be, and his natural aversion to sacrificing his chance for the same takes hold and is his guide.

It's easy for me to say, and yet often not easy to do. But don't forget what is possible. Don't give it up, even if that means you walk away.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Piece of Sky, thanks for the kind words, you're probably right. I just wish I'd had this kind of help 20 years ago when I could have changed so much more.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

turnera said:


> Piece of Sky, thanks for the kind words, you're probably right. I just wish I'd had this kind of help 20 years ago when I could have changed so much more.




It's never too late T.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Working on it, blue. I've been implementing some boundaries and things are improving. I'm luckier than most women here in that my H really does want to be married to me and will put up with pretty much everything. It's just me who has to learn to stand up for myself. You know, the 'it's all in my head' thing. Every time I've braved myself and stood my ground, he just says 'ok.'


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## totalfive21 (Jun 25, 2014)

PieceOfSky said:


> The risk is the longer this goes on, the notion of "better" fades, and eventually you stop remembering what you had hoped for, what you thought you deserved. You start to feel the occasional scraps you've gotten are all that you deserved. You'll worry that when your son contemplates his future, he'll not even see the possibility of finding joy in this life with another; you'll worry he equates relationships with loss, with atrophy of the soul, of possibilities surrendered rather than multiplied.
> 
> Soul-crushing years take a toll on the body, too. Energy wasted chronically vacillating on leaving vs. staying, or accepting him as-is vs. hoping for change, is energy not spent on self-care, and the effects over a long period of time are difficult to imagine in the beginning.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this. It's so true what you mentioned about years of wasting energy on vacillating taking a toll on oneself. Also true about what my son may think about relationships. The problem with my H is that I think he is bi-polar. We are in a period right now, which is typical and maybe constitutes about 85% of our time, in which he makes it clear that he cherishes me and is so lucky to be married to me. Every day he compliments how I look, says how lucky he is, says I'm the "best wife and mommy", etc. Goes on and on about it. When we're in the midst of an argument (which in my opinion is never a "fair" argument, he always turns abusive), he will bring up that "you'll never find someone who treats with you with as much kindness as me and loves you like I do". I know, it's classic manipulation and a bizarre abuser tactic. I see right through that (and, btw, never mentioned that I would be looking for anyone else!).

After 15 years of marriage, with occasional incidents of verbal abuse, plus the EA 4 years ago, which was rugswept, followed by more occasional incidents of verbal abuse, I simply see him differently. A large part of me has detached, plain and simple. Would I be sad if we divorced though? Yes. 

Thanks again for letting me express my feelings and reading!


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