# Is it ok to lie if you feel the truth will result in inconvenience for you?



## dkong (Mar 12, 2010)

My wife told me a bold-face lie last night. It was something inane, to the extent that I don't even understand why she bothered to lie. I only found out about the lie when my daughter told me something contradictory the next day. I actually believed my 12yr old daughter, because she is generally pretty honest.

Anyway, when I spoke about it with my wife, she denied the lie, and then even called my daughter over and chastised her, telling her to get her story straight and not lie to her father. I still knew something wasn't right. Eventually my wife told the truth about the situation. Even then, she refused to be called a "liar", and instead said that sometimes she doesn't tell me the truth because she thinks I might get upset, or carry on about it. That in itself is a bit offensive, because I'm not a raving madman, I don't have a huge temper. I think I'm fairly placid most of the time.

Honesty is very important to me. We've had some trust issues in the past, so it's a sensitive topic for me. It wasn't infidelity, rather it was hidden credit cards, gossiping with her Mom about our marriage etc. As a human I can admit I've told white lies on occasion, but will always confess them, so I don't understand why it should be so difficult for her to do the same.

I'm at the point where I am genuinely considering separating from her. The main reason is that she said she feels her justification for the lie was fine, which makes me feel that she will continue to lie if she thinks that telling the truth will result in an inconvenience for her, and I will never know when she is being honest, and when she is lying. I really don't know where to go from here as I get stone-walled if I try bring it up. She refuses to accept responsibility and immediately starts deflecting, and somehow tries to make this about me. We have 3 beautiful kids, but this saga has played out in front of them, and she has even brought them into the conversation (well my older daughter anyway). I think it's horrible modelling for the children.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

dkong said:


> My wife told me a bold-face lie last night. It was something inane, to the extent that I don't even understand why she bothered to lie. I only found out about the lie when my daughter told me something contradictory the next day. I actually believed my 12yr old daughter, because she is generally pretty honest.
> 
> Anyway, when I spoke about it with my wife, she denied the lie, and then even called my daughter over and chastised her, telling her to get her story straight and not lie to her father. I still knew something wasn't right. Eventually my wife told the truth about the situation. Even then, she refused to be called a "liar", and instead said that sometimes she doesn't tell me the truth because she thinks I might get upset, or carry on about it. That in itself is a bit offensive, because I'm not a raving madman, I don't have a huge temper. I think I'm fairly placid most of the time.
> 
> ...


Look up "people pleaser personality". I had EXACTLY this problem with my now ex, and over a period of years, realized it was not solvable. It is a pathological psychological condition, and unless the person doing it gets serious about dealing with it, you will feel her pull further and further away as her fearful avoidance of any form of conflict gets worse and worse. This is not a person you will get closer to -her lack of trust in you will spread to a lack of trust in others. Do look up that phrase and read the articles.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Leaving your family isn't better model behavior. You set just as bad an example for them while claiming them being of some level of importance, but they obviously are not. Instead of leaving, consider marriage counseling. And your wife needs individual counseling.


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## dkong (Mar 12, 2010)

@DustyDog I can definitely see elements of the "People pleaser" in her, but that mainly seems to be with others, like co-workers, friends, and people that she engages with on a more superficial level. At home, she's the opposite (well, with me at least). She does spoil the kids a bit much, and I feel she likes the attention, but to me, she's very different.


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## dkong (Mar 12, 2010)

@StarFires - I agree, but I am human. I live for my family, work hard at my job, help around the house, look after the kids, and it feels like all I have now is a wife who trashes me to our oldest daughter and sets a bad example for her. This is one of those situations where I feel like we are staying together for the kids, but nobody will admit it. I don't even know how I would broach a conversation about counselling with someone so obstinate that they wont admit any wrong doing.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

dkong said:


> @DustyDog I can definitely see elements of the "People pleaser" in her, but that mainly seems to be with others, like co-workers, friends, and people that she engages with on a more superficial level. At home, she's the opposite (well, with me at least). She does spoil the kids a bit much, and I feel she likes the attention, but to me, she's very different.


I don't understand this. What you described - the lying for convenience and the stonewalling - are the #1 trademarks of the people-pleasing pathology. There are no other stronger elements. What do you think is missing? Yes, most people-pleasers are selective in their targets of who to behave this way toward. Usually, it's people who they think have some power over them - bosses and spouses and other people who really need them to be honest tend to be the most common victims.

It is, in fact, a further evidence that she's this way with people she engages with superficially - there's even LESS reason to want to please them, and their conversations should never be about topics so delicate that she'd be uncomfortable telling them anything. "Who has to sign this document next?" If the right answer is Amy, but nobody likes Amy, does she lie and say "Susan"? If so, then she's a pretty bad case of it.

As I read your initial posting, I saw my ex-wife's face doing all that you said. You must come to terms with this. We went to a marital counselor, and it took over six months before my then-wife even admitted she had been behaving this way. We were 14 years into the marriage by then, and there had been so many cases of me not knowing the truth that I had completely lost track of who I was married to. Many things that she presented strongly with in the first few years were finally uncovered when she said things like "I always hated dancing, why did you insist we go every last Friday of the month?". "Uh, well, because in our first year of dating you said you loved dancing more than anything?" "I never meant that, I only said it to give you something to do with me." Seriously. That is where this is headed if you can't grapple with it soon.

Maybe I'm mis-inerpreting, but unless you provide, more or less word-for-word, the specific conversation, it's going to be hard to tell.

Look up Stonewalling, too, particularly articles by John Gottman. Tied directly to people-pleasing, and considered one of the "Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse" that guarantees a relationship is headed toward divorce (98% probability, per Gottman's study of 100,000 couples).

One article I read said the people-pleaser is the most difficult personality issue to overcome. It's highly tied with irrational fears, which are very difficult to resolve.

DD


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## Cooper (Apr 18, 2008)

dkong said:


> My wife told me a bold-face lie last night. It was something inane, to the extent that I don't even understand why she bothered to lie. I only found out about the lie when my daughter told me something contradictory the next day. I actually believed my 12yr old daughter, because she is generally pretty honest.
> 
> Anyway, when I spoke about it with my wife, she denied the lie, and then even called my daughter over and chastised her, telling her to get her story straight and not lie to her father. I still knew something wasn't right. Eventually my wife told the truth about the situation. Even then, she refused to be called a "liar", and instead said that sometimes she doesn't tell me the truth because she thinks I might get upset, or carry on about it. That in itself is a bit offensive, because I'm not a raving madman, I don't have a huge temper. I think I'm fairly placid most of the time.
> 
> ...


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Ex-wife had a habit of omitting the truth, evading the question, but never outright lying to my face. In the end today I still trust her, and hell even learnt how to "lie" from her through omission as to be much more diplomatic - by nature I'm too brutally honest to the point of being an insensitive sociopath.

But a bold-faced lie... there goes the trust.

So no, it's not ok for me either.

Everyone lies, but it's important to be honest when it counts. You confronted your wife and in that situation you depended on her to be honest, she wasn't. You can't work with that.


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## [email protected] (Mar 1, 2018)

Bringing the daughter in on the lie was beyond the pale. Unbelievable. Teaching the daughter to team up on lies to Dad?!!

She lies when she figures it pays. That's always the reason. Blaming you is called "blaming the victim". (You'll get mad if I tell you the truth). So of course you are offended. You get lied to, then told it is your own fault. 

To answer your question, no - she has no business lying. It is catastrophic to marriages. The trust that is broken is just so far out of proportion to any gain that can be had from lying it proves what kind of character disorder you are dealing with.


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## msrv23 (Jul 14, 2017)

Being someone who values honesty a lot, I can relate to how you feel. It’s really unsettling that our spouses would lie or ommit the truth then justifies it by saying that we might not handle the truth. It takes away our right to handle the truth, and even if we might not react well, it could be an opportunity to learn to handle things together. By not being honest we would not grow as a couple. It’s also a justification for cowardy and thry need to be responsible of their own feelings too.

With that said I agree with @StarFires. Leaving a marriage over this issue instead of lerning how to fix it first is not a model behavior as well. It teaches the kids that at any more difficult issue they should just leave a relationship, and it also shows that your marriage is just it. Is there no value in your marriage that is worth trying?
Is your marriage fine otherwise? Or are there other issues?


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## Just another (Feb 21, 2018)

It is a topic I had planned on discussing with my wife soon. I do not think its ok to lie to your spouse. It breaks trust period.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

It depends. If it's a response to "Do I look fat in these jeans?" type of question, or perhaps to plan a nice surprise for your spouse, then lying for my convenience is fine. Pretty much everything else _could_ do more harm (or jeopardize trust) than would justify any convenience to me. As for strangers ... well, it depends, but the criteria are far looser.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

What she did to your daughter was mean and cowardly. I would call her parenting skills into question and insist she get some counseling before she ruins those kids for life.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Whatever the "lie" was is pretty much never discussed so I really couldn't comment on that. But several other things stood out which in any case would make me more upset. First off, it was chastising a kid and then undercutting them by coming clean. What a horrible example she has just set for that child. I an imagine the child is extremely confused about the message/ It seems to be cover my backside no matter what. If so it is sort of understandable why so many people defend their choices despite everything saying it is wrong, as in our current politics. The other thing is hidden credit cards. To me the act of having them would be worse than the lie of covering them up.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

You have a much bigger problem than a lying wife.

You have a woman whose willing to accuse her own kid of LYING just to cover her OWN lying ass.

That's Mother of the Year material, right there. :surprise:


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Let me add my voice to the chorus of posters who have honed on in your wife getting on your daughter.

This is your biggest problem. It's one thing to try to shade the truth (bad enough), but it's something else entirely to reprimand a child for being a child or, worse, just telling the truth. That's the worst possible example right there. 

I agree, wife needs some counseling here.


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## Cromer (Nov 25, 2016)

Years ago, my ex and I got into an argument because I found out that she would routinely tell the kids "don't tell dad", but it was all for stupid stuff. For example, she might buy a little something for one of them, then say "don't tell dad". One day, DS3 mentioned something to me and said that mom didn't want him to tell, I asked her about it, then all of the kids started singing like canaries about how their mom had done this. My ex did this because she was afraid that I'd get mad if I knew that she spent money on some trinket, or whatever, but I had never done so, wouldn't do so, and never did. For the life of me, I don't understand why she thought that or why she would tell the kids to hide something from me. It was not a good example to set and that made me mad. Of course, I later found that she had much deeper secrets and lies. In for a penny, in for a pound, I guess.


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## NickyT (Aug 14, 2017)

My husband does this type of thing. I hate it I think it is demeaning to those who are lied to, but I have learned, as others have said, that it is a a strange conflict-avoidance behavior that others here have labeled "people pleasing". The irony is that in trying to avoid trivial conflicts, they ultimately causes deep conflict.

Unless this pattern is new or she is hiding adultery, you can pretty much let it go and deal with it as it arises to show her you know she is lying and that you don't like it. BUT....in your case she pulled your daughter in and chastised her for something she apparently did not do to cover up her own lie. To me, this is sick behavior and I would not want my kids around it.


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## Cromer (Nov 25, 2016)

Just a little more on lying. Think of the lying process as a loop. You have the liar, the lie, the receiver, and the reaction. Liars:

- Lie for a reason, and that is to protect themselves or others from consequences.

- Make judgments about which lies are harmless (white lies), but almost only from their own perspective. They usually don't take the "receiver's" perspective into account. Therefore, people who tell a white lie that gets exposed are often surprised by the reaction of the receiver.

- Judge the weight of a lie on a spectrum, which ranges from "least harm" to "most harm", which is based on the moral perspective of the liar. Think of it this way. Many people would agree that it is ok to tell their grandmother that her cookies tasted great, even if they weren't. Why? To protect their grandmother's feelings. Getting caught may mean she doesn't make cookies for you again, but she will always love you. However, what about lying to their boss? The consequence bar for the fact, or action, being concealed would have to outweigh the consequences of getting caught in that lie. So, make a mistake at work? Most people will own it if they know it doesn't mean getting fired. However, make a mistake that is a sure firing? Lie to the boss.

- Don't think much about the consequences of the action of lying, but only of the fact, or action, being exposed. Many times, the consequence of the act of telling the lie turns out to be worse than what was being lied about to the receiver. For example, lost of trust.

When a liar is caught, lots of things can happen. But the liar's reaction is going to be proportional to the gravity of the lie. Think about the post lie situation as a reconciliation or divorce period. One can either remove the liar from their lives or stay with the liar but work to rebuild the trust that was lost. The key to dealing with lies is to get to and understand the real "why lie?" behind the lie. Having a rational discussion after understanding how the lying loop works can be helpful, but only if the liar is honest. Once liars get comfortable with lying, get away with lying, and avoids the consequences of the actions they are lying about, they get bold and are more likely to lie about bigger issues. 

Not sure if any of this helps.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

She should be asked to apologize to your daughter and admit her wrongdoing if she hasn't done so yet. This must have left the child so confused and conflicted.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

dkong said:


> @StarFires - I agree, but I am human. I live for my family, work hard at my job, help around the house, look after the kids, and it feels like all I have now is a wife who trashes me to our oldest daughter and sets a bad example for her. This is one of those situations where I feel like we are staying together for the kids, but nobody will admit it. I don't even know how I would broach a conversation about counselling with someone so obstinate that they wont admit any wrong doing.


You broach it by making an appointment and then telling her "I made an appointment with a marriage counselor. We have to be there Thursday at 7." And then walk away not giving her a choice in the matter. You have her over a barrel right now, so take advantage of that. If she refuses to go, then no one can say you didn't try to save your marriage. But as of right now, you have not tried. You just want to walk away.

I know divorce is common. And there's no stigma to serve as deterrent, so people consider it too soon and give up too easily. But as long as there is anything, such as counseling, that can be utilized to help save the marriage, then I think it is incumbent of both parties to try it, even as a last resort.

I feel that way because, despite how well we think we adjust to divorce when we were children, we really don't adjust well at all. Usually, success in life is used as the standard barometer for adjustment, but it's not. It's the resentment, the pitting parents against each other, the subsequent relationships, and the rejection of their parents' new love interests (especially dad's new love interests) that tell the real story. Children of divorce have all those feelings and do all those sabotaging behaviors even into adulthood but then we call ourselves well adjusted, and the parents who divorce say their children adjust well. I guess people expect if their kids don't immediately fall off the deep end, then they adjust well to the divorce, but that's not the barometer either because the resentment and insecurity are underlying and manifest themselves in ways that are almost never attributed to being the resulting effects of the divorce. It is an innate, a primal, need for the two people we came from to be together because those two define us and represent our connection to the outside world. That is proven by the children whose parents never were together still have a need for them to be together, and it's proven by the adult children whose parents divorce. A person of 30 or 40 years of age take the news very deeply and are much more emotionally and mentally affected than when their friends divorce. There are reasons for that.

So if "for the kids" is the only reason you are together, then let that be the single thread that keeps you there while you make every honest effort to save your marriage. If counseling fails, then by all means divorce and set yourself free. But nothing beats a failure but a try, and right now you're just thinking about leaving. You are not even open to entertaining the possibility of trying. I know you're fed up and want out but since you say "for the kids" means something to you, then make it mean something for real.


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## dkong (Mar 12, 2010)

Cromer said:


> Years ago, my ex and I got into an argument because I found out that she would routinely tell the kids "don't tell dad", but it was all for stupid stuff. For example, she might buy a little something for one of them, then say "don't tell dad". One day, DS3 mentioned something to me and said that mom didn't want him to tell, I asked her about it, then all of the kids started singing like canaries about how their mom had done this. My ex did this because she was afraid that I'd get mad if I knew that she spent money on some trinket, or whatever, but I had never done so, wouldn't do so, and never did. For the life of me, I don't understand why she thought that or why she would tell the kids to hide something from me. It was not a good example to set and that made me mad. Of course, I later found that she had much deeper secrets and lies. In for a penny, in for a pound, I guess.


Thanks for the input/feedback.

I'd like to shed some more light on the actual lie. I've quoted Cromer because Cromer's post is pretty close to the mark in terms of the situation.

My 12yr and 8yr old daughters asked if they could take a walk to the store the other day to buy a few groceries for their school lunches. The store is about 1 mile from home, but we agreed to let them go to show that we trust them, and gave them one of our cell phones and a credit card. A couple of days later I noticed an item show up on our credit card statement that said McDonald's. None of us went to McDonald's that day, and I thought it may have been an erroneous charge. I asked my wife what she thought, and she said "I think the girls must have gone to McDonalds after they bought some groceries". I chuckled and said it was a bit cheeky, and asked my wife if the kids knew that she was aware. She said NO, and I said it might be a good opportunity to have some fun with them and drop some hints until they realise that we knew.

In reality, she actually knew on the day, because she picked them up and they said "don't tell Dad". One of my daughters is overweight for her age and the pediatrician said she needs to reduce sugars and junk food, so we have been trying to keep her on a healthy eating plan. When I discussed it further with my wife she said she promised the kids that she would not tell me because they were afraid that I would "carry on about it". As I mentioned she then perpetuated the charade further when she called my daughter (who told the truth) and told her off for "lying" to her father. Later that day (since my first post on this topic) my daughter was using my work laptop and I saw a gmail chat window open with the words saying "sorry Mom, I had to tell him the truth, don't be mad at me".

My wife still refuses to see that she has done anything wrong, an in fact claims that she was "protecting the kids" from how she thought I would react. I told her that it's not justifiable, and that in other words she is telling me that she can lie with impunity and use such a disclaimer whenever she feels uncomfortable about telling the truth.

The things I dislike mostly about this situation are (not in any particular order):

- the lie
- not owning the lie
- forcing my daughter to perpetuate the lie when the truth had been discovered
- talking behind my back with my daughter (this isn't the first time, and in the past when I've asked my daughter about shady situations she often looks to her Mom, almost as if seeking approval, and that's if her Mom doesn't step in first and speak on behalf of her kids, who are old enough to speak for themselves).

I will add, her own Mother has Narcissistic Personality Disorder. She is aware of this, and she said she loathes her Mother's behaviour, but in my opinion I think she is mirroring a lot of that behaviour herself.


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## VermiciousKnid (Nov 14, 2017)

There are only a few occasions when it's ok to lie. When your child is learning a new thing and they really suck at it. When your wife asks you if an outfit makes her look fat. When friends or coworkers invite you to something that you really don't want to go to. :wink2:


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

dkong said:


> Thanks for the input/feedback.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think knowing the lie changes the situation for me somewhat.
I think your wife may have handled the situation clumsily while trying to go out of her way to protect the kids. However: why do you think were the kids afraid to tell you that they had McDonalds food on the way? Were they justified in your opinion to have been afraid to tell you this? 
Is it perhaps the lack of respect that bothers you about this whole situation?

Technically, all your wife did was trying to keep a promise to your daughter. 
All your wife had to do was simply tell you the truth and ask you to let it go and the kids would never have known.
I guess she must have felt that you wouldn’t have let it go. Perhaps there is some lack of trust between both of you?

Are there any other reasons you feel you might want to be leaving her?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

dkong, I'd encourage you to tread VERY lightly here. Based on the story you have now explained, this is not as simple as your wife lying...it's easier in some ways, it's more honorable, but I think actually more approachable than my earlier observation of "People Pleaser".

You and your wife are apparently not in agreement about how to handle the kids. You have different views on how to handle it. If your wife does something you would not approve of, her lie may be to protect the kids from what she thinks might be an over-reaction from you. Or, she's trying to hide the fact from them that the two of you do not agree on child-rearing. Maybe the disagreement is about how strictly to follow doctor's orders versus allowing the kids to have an occasional treat, but the point is, the disagreement is bad enough that your wife feels the need to cover it up.

I think this is an easier problem to address, and the apparent lying from your wife will self-resolve.

IMO, this should be easier, because now it is US, and not HER. It is VERY difficult to deal with issues if you're blaming the other person. It's easier (but still hard) if it's a jointly-owned issue. I would actually recommend seeing a marital counselor. Not that you're in huge trouble, but you now have an easy approach. "Darling, I'm wanting to get a third party perspective on how we are raising the children, particularly how stringently we need to keep our daughter on diet. Neither of us had kids before, so we're new at this. Would you be OK to chat with a counselor with me?" Don't blame her, just show a genuine interest in helping both of you become better parents.

I kind of went off on the people-pleasing aspect before, but I was at that time, not aware that the way you handled the children was actually the central issue.

Best,

DD


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Cromer said:


> Of course, I later found that she had much deeper secrets and lies. In for a penny, in for a pound, I guess.


Bingo!

The plethora of small lies is proof she doesn't think lying is wrong. My xw was of the mentality that what I didn't know about wouldn't hurt me, so it was best to lie so I didn't know about it!

Over time the lies and deceptions became more serious. I would never advocate staying with someone who lies easily about so many things and has no guilt over it.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Secret credit cards is a form of infidelity called Financial Infidelity. It involves intentional deceit and lies. It involves stealing from you unless she the money is from an inheritance you have no access to. It involves hiding the truth from you so that she can get what she wants despite knowing you would not agree to the spending.


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## dkong (Mar 12, 2010)

DustyDog said:


> dkong, I'd encourage you to tread VERY lightly here. Based on the story you have now explained, this is not as simple as your wife lying...it's easier in some ways, it's more honorable, but I think actually more approachable than my earlier observation of "People Pleaser".
> 
> You and your wife are apparently not in agreement about how to handle the kids. You have different views on how to handle it. If your wife does something you would not approve of, her lie may be to protect the kids from what she thinks might be an over-reaction from you. Or, she's trying to hide the fact from them that the two of you do not agree on child-rearing. Maybe the disagreement is about how strictly to follow doctor's orders versus allowing the kids to have an occasional treat, but the point is, the disagreement is bad enough that your wife feels the need to cover it up.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input Dusty. I agree with your comments. I think I'm ultra sensitive to the lying because it's been attached to negative things in the the past, like the "financial infidelity" as another poster put it, but those issues have been resolved, so I have to try to make sure I don't lump them in the same basket. I am definitely the more strict parent in our relationship, largely mirroring the way I was raised by stern but fair parents.

I really don't want a separation, but in despair it seems easier sometimes, but I know it doesn't solve issues because we'd still have to communicate about the kids, money, and what not, but with the additional tension of being separated, so I think separation would be worse, but it's still a fantasy that crosses my mind sometimes to escape what it feels like is a complicated relationship at times. You are also right in your comments about how divorce impacts children. My neighbour is 60 years old with two adult sons. He has been divorced for most of his life, but he said he regrets the negative impact it had on his children.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

I was adamant that you shouldn't be talking about leaving because there were some clues in your statement that came from your wife, specifically that she was concerned you "might get upset, or "carry on about it." I didn't mention that specifically because I am not in your household to see what takes place and only have your version, and your version was that she has no reason to feel that way. I felt very differently but certainly couldn't argue with you about it.

And then, you told us "When I discussed it further with my wife she said she promised the kids that she would not tell me because they were afraid that I would "carry on about it." In this instance, it's your children who said the same thing and expressed the same sentiment and concern that your wife does.

You, on the other hand, categorically deny ever doing such a thing and claim you never would, but I assure you that you do because these members of your household DID NOT imagine their concerns. It all came from your past common behaviors. This is the way your family interprets your reactions even if you don't define them as such. So, you have the way you feel about this particularly incident and proclaim you would not have gotten upset and would not have carried on about it. But, my point is that you have gotten upset and carried on about other things, possibly many things, and possibly a great many things. And while you wouldn't have gotten upset about THIS thing, the members of your household have no way of knowing when dad will get upset or when hubby will carry on about something. The cherry picking is not theirs to do since past behaviors are predictors of future behaviors. So all they want to do is try to avoid your reactions altogether.

Your wife's divisive tactics are not acceptable. What she's doing is triangulating your children against you. I get that. I get how really upset you must be about it. And you should be upset about it. But you are not innocent in this scenario and if you would step out of your own head for just a minute, I hope you will realize that your view is not the only view there is, and yours is not the only one that matters. Your family members have theirs too, and theirs also matter.

So, you have identified with everyone in this thread who agreed with you and who went through the same as you, while doing your best to ignore me or brush off what I say. That's normal. People come here for validation of their own feelings and viewpoints, and boy do they get a lot of that because people have their own miseries they do or have dealt with, so they also want to vent, and project, and tell you how they know what you are going through. But even your main proponent in this thread dealt with his situation better, and more honorably, than you are dealing with yours. He planned his escape and waited many years until his youngest graduated high school, was out of the house and in college. You shouldn't let him drive you out of your own door and away from your own family. All this validation and commiserating on these boards can be a dangerous thing, especially since the cases are usually that people have only their own side of the story they are conveying, and most people deliberately don't for one second confess their own contributions to their problems. They come here wanting to be told how right they are and want permission to leave by way of absolution, or they want coping skills to stay in a messed up marriage they should have left years ago. And there are those like you, whom I really don't think actually realize they, themselves, contributed to the way their marriage/relationship turned out.

You need to go to marriage counseling, sir. I suggested before that your wife needs individual counseling, and I'm saying now that you do too. After you both have undergone counseling and understand the error of your ways, sit your children down together and explain what "family" means. Confess to them you have both made some mistakes and from now on, there will be no more triangulating some against the others, no more lying to each other, and no more secrets, and no more concerns that you will fly off the handle about things that occur. I mean seriously, if you leave your family, how are they supposed to learn these things they need to know? How will your children avoid these same types of behaviors in their own relationships and marriages? How will they know how to handle these types of problems except to run off? Who is there to teach them about marriage and family if their own mother and father don't teach them? What are they supposed to derive from dad running off just because there were some marital problems that could have been resolved? Do you see what I mean about the importance of parents staying together?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

“Is it ok to lie if you feel the truth will result in inconvenience for you?“

No.

****ing DUH.

I mean... _come on_. Pathological liars notwithstanding, that’s the only reason people ever lie.

And she did more than tell the one lie — she also chastised your daughter for contradicting her lie (by telling the truth) in an effort to reinforce her lie.

**** that.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

No 


Liers suck!


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## dkong (Mar 12, 2010)

StarFires said:


> I was adamant that you shouldn't be talking about leaving because there were some clues in your statement that came from your wife, specifically that she was concerned you "might get upset, or "carry on about it." I didn't mention that specifically because I am not in your household to see what takes place and only have your version, and your version was that she has no reason to feel that way. I felt very differently but certainly couldn't argue with you about it.
> 
> And then, you told us "When I discussed it further with my wife she said she promised the kids that she would not tell me because they were afraid that I would "carry on about it." In this instance, it's your children who said the same thing and expressed the same sentiment and concern that your wife does.
> 
> ...


StarFires, thanks for your feedback. I'm not ignoring you (or anyone), but I'm just working with managing my time to respond to what I can, so yes I'm responding to what grabs my attention. I take your point about people (like myself) replying to things that may validate or re-enforce their own views but I am not entirely approaching these forums with that mind-set, as it would be pointless and this place would turn into an echo-chamber. I'm here to consider all perspectives, and I consider myself fairly open minded. For what it's worth, I agree with many of your points. I'm not afraid to take a look at myself and try to understand my wife's perspective. It takes two to tango, and I am not out of touch with trying to understand how she may perceive me.

At the risk of sounding self-righteous though, I'm pretty patient, but I draw the line at some point, and I'm not going to talk myself into believe that lying is ok, no matter what the reason is (aside from the white lies that people have brought up). Lying is a slippery slope, and when someone feels they have a license to lie with impunity, then they will continue to do it and I will never know if they are being honest with me or not. As I said, there is more history to this than I've provided, and the trust issue has been there for a long time (it ebbs and flows). My wife has a lot of baggage, about the way she was raised - poor communication, blame games, and lack of accountability runs rife in her family, and sadly not something I noticed until later on, that they are a dysfunctional bunch, and that was her "normal" world. I recognize that, and I treat most situations with kid gloves due to her sensitivities. It's actually very difficult to have an adult conversation with her. She was treated like a child by her parents, even into her adulthood, and her mother plays all those games, like triangulation (to this day). I believe my wife loves me but she is a product of her upbringing (as am I), yet in my childhood, accountability, responsibility, communication, and knowing how to say sorry were all things we learned from our parents. My wife's family is the polar opposite of that, and it's hard to reconcile our views at times largely because of this.

I agree with your comments about setting an example for our kids. Leaving may not be the best outcome for them, but an unhealthy home environment is not be good either. Given that she triangulates against me now, under our own roof, living in separate houses would more likely escalate such behavior, so there is more chance I can shape and influence it if I'm under the same roof.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

dkong said:


> StarFires, thanks for your feedback. I'm not ignoring you (or anyone), but I'm just working with managing my time to respond to what I can, so yes I'm responding to what grabs my attention. I take your point about people (like myself) replying to things that may validate or re-enforce their own views but I am not entirely approaching these forums with that mind-set, as it would be pointless and this place would turn into an echo-chamber. I'm here to consider all perspectives, and I consider myself fairly open minded. For what it's worth, I agree with many of your points. I'm not afraid to take a look at myself and try to understand my wife's perspective. It takes two to tango, and I am not out of touch with trying to understand how she may perceive me.
> 
> At the risk of sounding self-righteous though, I'm pretty patient, but I draw the line at some point, and I'm not going to talk myself into believe that lying is ok, no matter what the reason is (aside from the white lies that people have brought up). Lying is a slippery slope, and when someone feels they have a license to lie with impunity, then they will continue to do it and I will never know if they are being honest with me or not. As I said, there is more history to this than I've provided, and the trust issue has been there for a long time (it ebbs and flows). My wife has a lot of baggage, about the way she was raised - poor communication, blame games, and lack of accountability runs rife in her family, and sadly not something I noticed until later on, that they are a dysfunctional bunch, and that was her "normal" world. I recognize that, and I treat most situations with kid gloves due to her sensitivities. It's actually very difficult to have an adult conversation with her. She was treated like a child by her parents, even into her adulthood, and her mother plays all those games, like triangulation (to this day). I believe my wife loves me but she is a product of her upbringing (as am I), yet in my childhood, accountability, responsibility, communication, and knowing how to say sorry were all things we learned from our parents. My wife's family is the polar opposite of that, and it's hard to reconcile our views at times largely because of this.
> 
> I agree with your comments about setting an example for our kids. Leaving may not be the best outcome for them, but an unhealthy home environment is not be good either. Given that she triangulates against me now, under our own roof, living in separate houses would more likely escalate such behavior, so there is more chance I can shape and influence it if I'm under the same roof.



"Quote:
Originally Posted by StarFires View Post
I was adamant that you shouldn't be talking about leaving because there were some clues in your statement that came from your wife, specifically that she was concerned you "might get upset, or "carry on about it." I didn't mention that specifically because I am not in your household to see what takes place and only have your version, and your version was that she has no reason to feel that way. I felt very differently but certainly couldn't argue with you about it.

And then, you told us "When I discussed it further with my wife she said she promised the kids that she would not tell me because they were afraid that I would "carry on about it." In this instance, it's your children who said the same thing and expressed the same sentiment and concern that your wife does.

You, on the other hand, categorically deny ever doing such a thing and claim you never would, but I assure you that you do because these members of your household DID NOT imagine their concerns. It all came from your past common behaviors. This is the way your family interprets your reactions even if you don't define them as such. So, you have the way you feel about this particularly incident and proclaim you would not have gotten upset and would not have carried on about it. But, my point is that you have gotten upset and carried on about other things, possibly many things, and possibly a great many things. And while you wouldn't have gotten upset about THIS thing, the members of your household have no way of knowing when dad will get upset or when hubby will carry on about something. The cherry picking is not theirs to do since past behaviors are predictors of future behaviors. So all they want to do is try to avoid your reactions altogether."


OP, all you have to do is go and read this person's posts to see a very clear and distinct bias in their posting. That's all I'm going to say on that.

As for your situation, liars suck, Period!
You have to figure out if it's a deal breaker for you.
For me myself, the older I get, the less time I have for liars. As in none!

Take what is useful and discard the rest of the advice.
YMMV.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Here is my thing with telling the truth. I certainly cannot condone lying; however, I understand why people do it; therefore, I think if we want people to always tell the truth, we need to create an environment that is always acceptable of the truth. That is what I did with my kids, and it worked really well. For example, suppose a kid does something wrong in secret. The parent asks them about it and they tell the truth and admit it. The parent then has a fit and punishes them. If that happens a couple of times, it's not long before the kid believes he needs a new strategy. After all, telling the truth isn't bringing anything good, it just brings a punishment. I apply that to everyone. I always try to make people feel comfortable in telling the truth. I'm not saying you don't, but just my idea.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

dkong said:


> StarFires, thanks for your feedback. I'm not ignoring you (or anyone), but I'm just working with managing my time to respond to what I can, so yes I'm responding to what grabs my attention. I take your point about people (like myself) replying to things that may validate or re-enforce their own views but I am not entirely approaching these forums with that mind-set, as it would be pointless and this place would turn into an echo-chamber. I'm here to consider all perspectives, and I consider myself fairly open minded. For what it's worth, I agree with many of your points. I'm not afraid to take a look at myself and try to understand my wife's perspective. It takes two to tango, and I am not out of touch with trying to understand how she may perceive me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It’s difficult to comment on the whole of your relationship, not knowing the whole picture and the history with regards to lies and the trust issues etc. I can only go by the story you provided here and on the basis of the story alone, it does feel like an overreaction from you. It feels like a slightly controlling behaviour: point out a mistake (it’s debatable whether it was her mistake, since it wasn’t HER idea to lie: your daughter asked her to, if I understood it correctly) and the need for her to admit guilt or being held accountable.

Maybe I misunderstood the story but didn’t your wife make a promise to your daughter not to tell you about the treat on your daughter’s request? She was ASKED to do this and she agreed. Why aren’t you upset with your daughter going behind your back and then asking her mum to lie for her? 
Your wife was in an awkward spot: telling you the truth would mean betraying daughter’s confidence. Lying to you would make her a victim in case you found out; she chose the latter because maybe she felt she could deal with your anger towards her whereas perhaps she couldn’t face dealing with her daughter’s resentment if she found out she betrayed her confidence. Perhaps you are hurt about the loyalty distribution in your family rather than the lies?

There’s obviously something wrong due to the fact that she felt scared or uncomfortable diffusing the situation with you. Maybe that’s the bit and the possible reasons you should be examining rather than your wife’s reluctance to accept the ‘charges’ that you are bringing against her. I’m not saying it’s your fault but the fact that YOUR depiction of the story in the initial post and the story itself later on differ quite a bit, at least to my eyes, is worth examining.

I hate to guess but there might be many reasons why you feel your wife’s loyalty does not lie with you but with the children and that she feels she needs to ‘manage’ your reactions in these awkward ways. You need to talk openly to each other about this. And before you insist on her admitting to the lies, perhaps you can first start by admitting to her how hurt you feel by this whole situation and dynamics in your family. I don’t know. 
On the other hand sometimes it can be difficult to show vulnerability because it can get thrown back in your face. But someone should be the bigger person and try and break that cycle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

You also mentioned in the initial post that it was your wife who tried to convince your daughter to lie to you whereas it was originally the other way around, it turns out.
Your wife seemed to want to prove her loyalty to your daughter by sticking to the story (that the daughter asked her to perpetrate) until it became embarrassing for the daughter and she then asked her to stop. It seems a bit odd to me that your wife is getting all the blame but as I said, I don’t know the history. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

I'm scratching my head over this one.




dkong said:


> A couple of days later I noticed an item show up on our credit card statement that said McDonald's. None of us went to McDonald's that day, and I thought it may have been an erroneous charge. I asked my wife what she thought, and *she said "I think the girls must have gone to McDonalds after they bought some groceries".* I chuckled and said it was a bit cheeky, and asked my wife if the kids knew that she was aware. She said NO, and I said it might be a good opportunity to have some fun with them and drop some hints until they realise that we knew."


It sounds like your wife told you the truth that the girls went to McDs.



> In reality, she actually knew on the day, because she picked them up and *they said "don't tell Dad".*


So the girls are the one who asked your Wife not to tell you. Maybe? Or maybe your W offered not tell you because you are more strict? In either case, you told the critical info which is that the charge on the credit card, was legit and yes, the girls had gone to McD.

It sounds more to me like you are upset that they were playing with you. My H and I play like this often- we gently tease and poke fun at each other and ourselves. Most certainly there are times when my H and son are in on the joke together, and sometimes my son and I are able to pull something fun over on H.

I am 100% certain my H has done something with our son and "Don't tell your mom!" Exactly like you and your W were going to play with the girls, dropping hints until they realize that you knew. 

I mean, she was playing with you AND them! She was playing with your girls, working them up to realizing that they knew that YOU knew, and playing with you, working you up to knowing that she knew! If my H had done this to me, I would have thought it was clever and been like, "I see what you did there! Well played!"

This just seems so small to me- are talking about McDs, not a lot of money, not boys, not sex, not drinking/drugs, not parties. I just can't see anything nefarious here, or filled with ill-intent.



> wife still refuses to see that she has done anything wrong, an in fact claims that she was "protecting the kids" from how she thought I would react. I told her that it's not justifiable, and that in other words she is telling me that she can lie with impunity and use such a disclaimer whenever she feels uncomfortable about telling the truth.


You said you were "placid" and yet here you are, ready to separate over a joke. Are you sure you are low key as you say you are? You're taking her inside joke with the girls awfully seriously.


Unless there are a myriad other issues going on, this looks like a molehill blow way up into a mountain.


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## dkong (Mar 12, 2010)

RoseAglow said:


> I'm scratching my head over this one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



>> You said you were "placid" and yet here you are, ready to separate over a joke. Are you sure you are low key as you say you are? You're taking her inside joke with the girls awfully seriously.

It's wasn't a joke. It sounds like you're projecting your own personal experiences here about how your husband and sun make banter. This was not the case.

>>It sounds more to me like you are upset that they were playing with you.

They weren't playing with.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> You also mentioned in the initial post that it was your wife who tried to convince your daughter to lie to you whereas it was originally the other way around, it turns out.
> Your wife seemed to want to prove her loyalty to your daughter by sticking to the story (that the daughter asked her to perpetrate) until it became embarrassing for the daughter and she then asked her to stop. It seems a bit odd to me that your wife is getting all the blame but as I said, I don’t know the history.


Boy oh boy I wanted to point that out so badly, that he totally made it all about his wife's doing. I just didn't want to bring up yet another point. Thank you for doing that. Didn't do any good though. He just wants to leave no matter what and not have to take any responsibility for his own actions. His kids' loss, and he doesn't know how bad a price he's going to have to pay.


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## dkong (Mar 12, 2010)

inmyprime said:


> You also mentioned in the initial post that it was your wife who tried to convince your daughter to lie to you whereas it was originally the other way around, it turns out.
> Your wife seemed to want to prove her loyalty to your daughter by sticking to the story (that the daughter asked her to perpetrate) until it became embarrassing for the daughter and she then asked her to stop. It seems a bit odd to me that your wife is getting all the blame but as I said, I don’t know the history.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The way I feel is that my wife is the adult and should have more maturity on how to handle the situation. My daughter was just being a kid, and I can't expect as much from a 12 year old compared to an adult. The fact that she felt comfortable to ask is because I'm pretty sure that my wife has enabled my daughter to feel she can talk behind her parents back. I see this because my daughter tries to talk to me about my wife. I never entertain it, and if I do I always try to placate her and defend my wife. I hear it often enough "why is Mom always angry?" etc.

As I've mentioned I have a different upbringing to my wife. My parents never fell prey to divide and conquer tactics from their kids. My wife on the other hand has told me how her Mother used to tell her and her brother (as kids) that she wanted to leave their Dad but only stayed because she needed money". I think this was "normalized" to her as a child, so doesn't seem unusual now either. Me on the other hand would have never tried to talk crap about one parent to another. It just wouldn't fly.


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## dkong (Mar 12, 2010)

StarFires said:


> Boy oh boy I wanted to point that out so badly, that he totally made it all about his wife's doing. I just didn't want to bring up yet another point. Thank you for doing that. Didn't do any good though. He just wants to leave no matter what and not have to take any responsibility for his own actions. His kids' loss, and he doesn't know how bad a price he's going to have to pay.


I'm still here, but nice of you to talk about me as if I wasn't. StarFries, you seem a bit insecure and needy, and I don't understand your disdain for me but I'm gonna guess that I remind you of someone in your life (past or present).

Secondly, you're both not comprehending something from my first post. There is no contradiction in what I've said.

>> your wife who tried to convince your daughter to lie to you whereas it was originally the other way around, it turns out.

They both lied, but my daughter didn't lie at first. She asked my wife not to tell me. That's not a lie. When I asked if my daughter knew that my wife knew about their outing, my wife said NO. So, she lied first, and then my daughter lied later to conceal my wife's lie. Get it?


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## dkong (Mar 12, 2010)

StarFires said:


> He just wants to leave no matter what and not have to take any responsibility for his own actions. His kids' loss, and he doesn't know how bad a price he's going to have to pay.


What a load of [email protected] You clearly don't read or choose to willfully promulgate misinterpretation of my posts.

I'm hear to take on people's opinions, and open to possibilities, not to validate my own views, because why would I even come to a forum if I'd already made a decision.

No offence but it sounds like your husband left you and now you are projecting.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

dkong said:


> I agree with your comments about setting an example for our kids. Leaving may not be the best outcome for them, but an unhealthy home environment is not be good either. Given that she triangulates against me now, under our own roof, living in separate houses would more likely escalate such behavior, so there is more chance I can shape and influence it if I'm under the same roof.


Wow, that sounds great, and I hope you will do that with the help of a professional. Left to your own devices, you will be back here telling us what a useless effort it is because you are not equipped to do it. Plus, spouses don't listen to their spouse in that regard. It's easier to make you the enemy. Everybody does that or are inclined to. Leave it to a pro and she will be more receptive. 

And just to note that you're absolutely right about the two different residences. After you separate is when she's most likely to exercise parental alienation tactics. Right now, she's being ridiculous but it isn't intentionally to marginalize you to the kids. Divorce makes it an aggressive campaign among people, and I have to say that it appears most practiced by women. My own father tried to do it to us after he and my mom separated when I was 12, but I refused to see him anymore (had only seen him 2 times) because I didn't care to hear him denegrate my mother to me. But most kids are severely affected by it, and, unfortunately, it seems women are the biggest perpetrators, so dads catch an awful hard time. You're wise to avoid that because there's no overcoming it while your kids are still minors. I have no doubt it is extremely hurtful to the alienated parent and even worse for the kids in the long run.

For the rest regarding your wife, I kinda have to say she is who you chose and who you are stuck with now, for a while longer at least if you are sincere in your efforts. But reading up on her dysfunctional upbringing as it relates to her mentality may be helpful. This site can get you started and can be helpful to you too:

Instincts and Habits
Policy of Radical Honesty

You and she should both read these articles, not necessarily together, but both read them and then schedule time to discuss them together. In fact, you both should read all of the articles on the left side ribbon bar and do the worksheets too. I have no doubt these articles are more helpful than most marriage counselors (there are some really terrible ones out there but you don't know about the counselor you choose until they reveal their ineptitude), but counseling and this site in concert should prove extremely valuable.

I really wish you and your family well.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

dkong said:


> What a load of [email protected] You clearly don't read or choose to willfully promulgate misinterpretation of my posts.
> 
> I'm hear to take on people's opinions, and open to possibilities, not to validate my own views, because why would I even come to a forum if I'd already made a decision.
> 
> No offence but it sounds like your husband left you and now you are projecting.


I posted that before I had read your last response, and I apologize. But no, my husband didn't leave me so I've nothing to project. My efforts were sincere to try to convince you to work on your marriage. It previously seemed you were determined to end it, but again that was before I read your more recent comments.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

dkong said:


> They both lied, but my daughter didn't lie at first. *She asked my wife not to tell me*. That's not a lie. When I asked if my daughter knew that my wife knew about their outing, my wife said NO. So, she lied first, and then my daughter lied later to conceal my wife's lie. Get it?


I am not sure I quite see the distinction. Perhaps it's a semantic distinction but if your daughter asked your wife not to tell her dad about the outing and your wife complied and then you ask your wife about the outing: your wife ends up in an impossible situation: how can she honour your daughter's request while at the same time tell the truth?


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

dkong said:


> >> You said you were "placid" and yet here you are, ready to separate over a joke. Are you sure you are low key as you say you are? You're taking her inside joke with the girls awfully seriously.
> 
> It's wasn't a joke. It sounds like you're projecting your own personal experiences here about how your husband and sun make banter. This was not the case.
> 
> ...


I am definitely coming from a different place than you re my family. We laugh and have fun together. 

Is your family life full of conflict normally? 

It is just hard for me to wrap my head around why you are so upset. Your wife didn't lie to you about whether or not your daughters went to McDonalds.

She did lie about whether or not she knew, at your daughters' request (assuming that is true), because they (or she) was concerned about how you would react. 

And now, you feel so strongly about it, you are considering separating over this?

If this is not a joke, if you and your wife and your daughters are in a situation that is so tense that this is the straw that backs the camel's back....I think your wife and daughters might have been on point. I mean, clearly they were. You found out (not that they tried very hard to keep it from you) and you are considering blowing up your family over it.

Again, I question whether you are as placid as you think you are. Or there is a whole lot more to this story? I have to think there is more somewhere.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

dkong said:


> The way I feel is that my wife is the adult and should have more maturity on how to handle the situation. My daughter was just being a kid, and I can't expect as much from a 12 year old compared to an adult. The fact that she felt comfortable to ask is because* I'm pretty sure that my wife has enabled my daughter to feel she can talk behind her parents back.* I see this because my daughter tries to talk to me about my wife. I never entertain it, and if I do I always try to placate her and defend my wife. I hear it often enough "why is Mom always angry?" etc.


I am not sure it is fair to blame your wife for (what you feel) might be shortcomings in your kids' behaviour. It reads a little (and I apologise if I am wrong) like your kids cannot do wrong and if they do, it's your wife's fault because she let it happen.

Try to avoid blaming in general: it is IMO the ultimate killer of any relationship, aside from resentment (though the two go together usually). Marriage accumulates a ton of 'baggage' over time; you have to learn to navigate through it somehow if you want it to survive. There is a balance somewhere between putting your wife on a pedestal (which a lot of men do) and blaming/using her as a scapegoat.
Why not take them all out for a happy family meal to McDonalds to make up and order everyone a salad 



dkong said:


> As I've mentioned I have a different upbringing to my wife. My parents never fell prey to divide and conquer tactics from their kids. My wife on the other hand has told me how her Mother used to tell her and her brother (as kids) that she wanted to leave their Dad but only stayed because she needed money". I think this was "normalized" to her as a child, so doesn't seem unusual now either. Me on the other hand would have never tried to talk crap about one parent to another. It just wouldn't fly.


Yes it's normal to have some differences in moral values and upbringing between two adults. You should try and discuss these and be empathetic (ideally) to begin with. Don't dismiss the notion that your mind might be 'biased' towards your wife ('don't really love her any more therefore everything that goes wrong is her fault') as well as towards your children ('love my children more than the world therefore they cannot do anything wrong').

I could be completely wrong so feel free to ignore it! You are right about projections: but it's impossible not to since written medium in an anonymous setting is probably the least efficient way to give accurate advice.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

dkong said:


> Thanks for the input/feedback.
> 
> I'd like to shed some more light on the actual lie. I've quoted Cromer because Cromer's post is pretty close to the mark in terms of the situation.
> 
> ...


Whoa- from a little girls trip to MickeyD's that they feel fearful enough to lie about- or not tell you or arrange a giant coverup- to wife having NPD and divorce.

Maybe you should concern yourself with why your daughter feels the need to be afraid to buy a happy meal, your reaction to the happy meal and why your wife has to play pick up sticks.


Maybe you can all go for a 5 Mile hike tomorrow and get a quarter Pounder with cheese , chicken fingers or salad afterwords.

Don't start making food an issue for your kids and have everyone in an uproar cause you don't like it.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*There is never an acceptable excuse for the promotion of a lie!

It's strictly done out of the human elements of fear and/or outright carelessness!*


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## dkong (Mar 12, 2010)

sandcastle said:


> Whoa- from a little girls trip to MickeyD's that they feel fearful enough to lie about- or not tell you or arrange a giant coverup- to wife having NPD and divorce.
> 
> Maybe you should concern yourself with why your daughter feels the need to be afraid to buy a happy meal, your reaction to the happy meal and why your wife has to play pick up sticks.
> 
> ...


It seems like you are trying to put words in my mouth. Maybe try reading all my posts before commenting. I have 3 children and ultimately as parents (as you may or may not have experience with) we are responsible for their physical and emotional well-being. It is not a perfect science. Child-hood obesity results in fatty livers and atherosclerosis even at that age. My daughter has been told by several physicians that she needs to lose weight, and she also gets poked fun at school. I believe in moderation, and they have "bad food" from time to time, but they have enough of that without side-trips to McDonalds. To be flippant about your children's health is irresponsible parenting, because the impact of not keeping an eye on what your children put in their mouths is a bigger global problem than passive smoking. Our kids are taught (at school) and in general about healthy eating and we steer far from issues that could trigger body image problems. In fact, neglecting to care for their eating habits results in more problems as I mentioned above because she is getting taunted at school.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

arbitrator said:


> *There is never an acceptable excuse for the promotion of a lie!
> 
> It's strictly done out of the human elements of fear and/or outright carelessness!*


Going off your proclaimed-

If a child is going to get the piss beat out of them because they went to Burger King-

Because they like the fries...


And FEAR kicks in
I dunno- you'd probably lie or ask your Mom to not tell Dad.

Obviously that is extreme but like you said-
Fear is a human element that some children unfortunately deal with more than others.


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## Maxwedge 413 (Apr 16, 2014)

Divorce the wife, disown the children, and burn down the restaurant. It's the only sensible way.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

dkong said:


> It seems like you are trying to put words in my mouth. Maybe try reading all my posts before commenting. I have 3 children and ultimately as parents (as you may or may not have experience with) we are responsible for their physical and emotional well-being. It is not a perfect science. Child-hood obesity results in fatty livers and atherosclerosis even at that age. My daughter has been told by several physicians that she needs to lose weight, and she also gets poked fun at school. I believe in moderation, and they have "bad food" from time to time, but they have enough of that without side-trips to McDonalds. To be flippant about your children's health is irresponsible parenting, because the impact of not keeping an eye on what your children put in their mouths is a bigger global problem than passive smoking. Our kids are taught (at school) and in general about healthy eating and we steer far from issues that could trigger body image problems. In fact, neglecting to care for their eating habits results in more problems as I mentioned above because she is getting taunted at school.


Yes- I understand that children have many different reasons WHY THEY ARE FAT.

You got this.


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## dkong (Mar 12, 2010)

sandcastle said:


> Going off your proclaimed-
> 
> If a child is going to get the piss beat out of them because they went to Burger King-
> 
> ...


>> Obviously that is extreme but like you said-
>> Fear is a human element that some children unfortunately deal with more than others.

are you reading from another thread? I never said any of those things.


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## dkong (Mar 12, 2010)

arbitrator said:


> *There is never an acceptable excuse for the promotion of a lie!
> 
> It's strictly done out of the human elements of fear and/or outright carelessness!*


I would add it is also done out of selflishness, that some people are not willing to relinquish their ego and understand that lies more often than not create more complexity than truth.


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## dkong (Mar 12, 2010)

StarFires said:


> Wow, that sounds great, and I hope you will do that with the help of a professional. Left to your own devices, you will be back here telling us what a useless effort it is because you are not equipped to do it. Plus, spouses don't listen to their spouse in that regard. It's easier to make you the enemy. Everybody does that or are inclined to. Leave it to a pro and she will be more receptive.
> 
> And just to note that you're absolutely right about the two different residences. After you separate is when she's most likely to exercise parental alienation tactics. Right now, she's being ridiculous but it isn't intentionally to marginalize you to the kids. Divorce makes it an aggressive campaign among people, and I have to say that it appears most practiced by women. My own father tried to do it to us after he and my mom separated when I was 12, but I refused to see him anymore (had only seen him 2 times) because I didn't care to hear him denegrate my mother to me. But most kids are severely affected by it, and, unfortunately, it seems women are the biggest perpetrators, so dads catch an awful hard time. You're wise to avoid that because there's no overcoming it while your kids are still minors. I have no doubt it is extremely hurtful to the alienated parent and even worse for the kids in the long run.
> 
> ...


Thanks StarFries. I appreciate your well wishes and feedback. I genuinely take onboard some of this stuff and I like hearing different perspectives, which is why I am hear.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

dkong said:


> >> Obviously that is extreme but like you said-
> >> Fear is a human element that some children unfortunately deal with more than others.
> 
> are you reading from another thread? I never said any of those things.


Try reading all the posts from anyone but yourself on the thread you started.

Have a nice day.


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## Maxwedge 413 (Apr 16, 2014)

Clearly (to me) all of this angst and resentment stems from the simple fact that you are worried about you're daughter's health. She's overweight and the Dr says she needs to get healthier. So when she goes to McDonald's and you're wife helps her hide the fact - it all boils over on your wife. Your wife shouldn't have skewed the truth, but she certainly doesn't deserve all of this nonsense. Get over yourself, you raving maniac. Continue to help your girls make healthy choices and try to keep them active (soccer, field hockey, whatever). Many people stress eat - so stop stressing your family out.


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## [email protected] (Mar 1, 2018)

Wow, it's amazing the vitriol directed at the OP.

The mother, were she to have any scruples at all, should have reacted to the daughter's suggestion about not telling Dad by saying a lie is inappropriate on many grounds.

Children learn by observation and it is pretty clear the mother has a history of lying to cover bad behavior. The business of having secret conversations where Daddy is the enemy - wow, that's horrible. 

Liars like to minimize lies they see others perpetrate, so you can go right down this thread and see who are the liars by who minimizes it or blames the victim.


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## Lostsoul78 (Mar 20, 2018)

It's never okay to lie. Ever!


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

dkong said:


> I would add it is also done out of selflishness, that some people are not willing to relinquish their ego and understand that lies more often than not create more complexity than truth.


*Excellent point, @dkong ~ with regard to the deplorable human characteristic of selfishness! But deep down, I'd have to say that selfishness itself is borne from that same human trait of fear!

And with extremely rare exception, the fabrication and usage of the original lie itself almost always predicates the telling of many, many more, with which to basically coverup the original one, as well as any of the other "substantiating" ones!*


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Lostsoul78 said:


> It's never okay to lie. Ever!


What if she asks you if she looks fat?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> *What if she asks you if she looks fat?*


*Then simply tell her that she only looks "pleasingly plump!"

Or that "there's more of her to love!"*


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

And @dkong do not forget that she was willing to throw your honest daughter under the bus to protect herself from discovery. That is teaching your children all sorts of bad ideas.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

arbitrator said:


> *Then simply tell her that she only looks "pleasingly plump!"
> 
> Or that "there's more of her to love!"*


Hahaha

When ex put on weight and asked me, I replied that she's chubby, and she gave me a mad look. 

So to recover I said "hey! Chubby is cute! Chubby is sexy... _just not to me!_" 

I, of course, omitted the part at the end lol


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## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

dkong said:


> Anyway, when I spoke about it with my wife, she denied the lie, and then even called my daughter over and chastised her, telling her to get her story straight and not lie to her father.



This is terrible behavior on your wife's part and borders on child abuse. Involving your children in your marital difference is not only wrong but damaging to your child not to mention this incident and your wife inability to tell the truth is a really bad role model for your children. The fact that she was do this to her daughter just to keep her lie going would to me make me question why I would want to be with someone like that, but unfortunately unhealthy people look for unhealthy people so maybe a look at yourself might be in order. Why do you feel you deserve to stay with a person who lies and has no qualms about hurting her own daughter to protect herself?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> Hahaha
> 
> When ex put on weight and asked me, I replied that she's chubby, and she gave me a mad look.
> 
> ...


*Or said it way inaudibly under your breath!*


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

arbitrator said:


> *Or said it way inaudibly under your breath!*


And it was at that moment that I knew... I'd fked up!  haha


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> And @dkong do not forget that she was willing to throw your honest daughter under the bus to protect herself from discovery. That is teaching your children all sorts of bad ideas.


That's not what actually happened though. it first seemed like it form the first post.

It's very simple: just ask yourself who would the lie benefit, the wife or the daughters? In what way would the wife have benefited if she told the truth which is that her daughter asked her to make sure not to tell dad that they had a burger on the way to the store. In my interpretation, it seems completely unreasonable to me to get mad at the wife. (Even though I also think that she went too far calling her daughter in to confirm the lie *that the daughter herself came up with in the first place*).
My question is why does the husband not believe the wife when she says that she tried to protect the daughter when it's the most plausible explanation for her actions.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

southbound said:


> Here is my thing with telling the truth. I certainly cannot condone lying; however, I understand why people do it; therefore, I think if we want people to always tell the truth, we need to create an environment that is always acceptable of the truth. That is what I did with my kids, and it worked really well. For example, suppose a kid does something wrong in secret. The parent asks them about it and they tell the truth and admit it. The parent then has a fit and punishes them. If that happens a couple of times, it's not long before the kid believes he needs a new strategy. After all, telling the truth isn't bringing anything good, it just brings a punishment. I apply that to everyone. I always try to make people feel comfortable in telling the truth. I'm not saying you don't, but just my idea.


I agree with this. 

The way I handled my kids was that if they told the truth, their punishment was a lot less sever than if it found out about what they did and that they lied about it. Because of this, my kids would tell me the truth when I asked. Shoot, they would come to me and tell me that they did something wrong and needed to confess it asap. And when they did, they accepted the their punishment knowing that they it fit the crime and them being truthful about it.

If you make it 'safe' to tell the truth, most people will tell the truth.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

dkong said:


> I'm still here, but nice of you to talk about me as if I wasn't. StarFries, you seem a bit insecure and needy, and I don't understand your disdain for me but I'm gonna guess that I remind you of someone in your life (past or present).
> 
> Secondly, you're both not comprehending something from my first post. There is no contradiction in what I've said.
> 
> ...


Your daughter asking her mother not to tell is the first lie. Even if your daughter did not tell you the lie first, her statement of intent is the lie.

I can see why your wife and children are concerned about telling you the truth about simple things. You do over react.

It's often hard for us to see the truth about ourselves that others see. You really need to step back and reflect on how others (your family) react to you.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> Hahaha
> 
> When ex put on weight and asked me, I replied that she's chubby, and she gave me a mad look.
> 
> ...


*In that case? I'd say that you're rather fortunate that you weren't instantly converted into a eunuch by her!*


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Compulsive lying often is a product of an unsafe household where child behaviors become Dangerous for the child IF THEY TELL THE TRUTH.

Did you use all the toilet paper? Who ate my cookie? Did you go to Taco Bell? You are fat enough with the junk food you eat at home. Shut up and play Super Mario.That kind of really important stuff.

That child often times grows up to be diagnosed with all kinds of nasty disorders/ mental illness.

Like compulsive lying, serial cheating, eating disorders, binge shopping, porn and not registering a check in the check register.


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## dkong (Mar 12, 2010)

sandcastle said:


> Compulsive lying often is a product of an unsafe household where child behaviors become Dangerous for the child IF THEY TELL THE TRUTH.
> 
> Did you use all the toilet paper? Who ate my cookie? Did you go to Taco Bell? You are fat enough with the junk food you eat at home. Shut up and play Super Mario.That kind of really important stuff.
> 
> ...


That seems like a pretty broad sweeping statement. I would say that innately that most children lie at some point because it's part of a discovery process in their developmental years. I'd expect that from all children at some point. It's the responsibility of adults to let them know in a healthy way that lying is not correct behavior. I can certainly say in our household that telling the truth is not dangerous, in fact it's encouraged and lauded.


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## dkong (Mar 12, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> Your daughter asking her mother not to tell is the first lie. Even if your daughter did not tell you the lie first, her statement of intent is the lie.
> 
> I can see why your wife and children are concerned about telling you the truth about simple things. You do over react.
> 
> It's often hard for us to see the truth about ourselves that others see. You really need to step back and reflect on how others (your family) react to you.


She didn't lie but yes, technically you could say was lying by omission of truth. On the same token, I wouldn't expect her or my wife to come home and talk about McDonald's, but that if the subject did come up there should be no reason to lie about it.

>> You do over react.

How well do you know me to make a statement like that?

>> It's often hard for us to see the truth about ourselves that others see. You really need to step back and reflect on how others (your family) react to you.

That's a fair comment, and I genuinely try to look at any given situation from perspectives other than my own, which is why I am on this forum. On the same token, I believe my wife also has an unhealthy habit of triangulating, something I think she learned in her child-hood from her mother, so kids perceptions can be warped by important figures in their life like their parents. I may have mentioned, when my daughter argues with her Mom, sometimes she tries to vent to me and say negative things. I refuse to talk trash on my wife even if I agree with my daughter, and opt to water the situation down, talk-up the positives about my wife, or at the very least encourage her to talk to her Mom about her concerns. My wife on the other hand given the same situation will often enough compare notes, agree with her, and chip in a few comments of her own. It creates head-aches from a parenting situation, because as parents we often straddle the friend/parent zone with our children, and understandably we try to be both, but are ultimately more in the parent role than friend. When it comes to discipline my daughter gets upset because when my wife tells her off she feels like she is being told off by her friend, not her Mom. In moments of openness when my wife can be quite reflective she has even said to me that she doesn't like disciplining our kids because she doesn't want them to hate her, and that she feels guilty when she tells them off. It's largely an unhealthy piece of baggage she is carrying because of her dysfunctional relationship with her own mother who she doesn't speak to because of all of the triangulation and unhealthy stuff her Mother did to her and her brother growing up (and into adulthood), and she has said that she doesn't want our kids to end up despising her like she does her mother, and hence I feel as though she takes a super lenient approach to parenting (which makes her more popular with our kids), and skews perceptions of me relative to her, because I come off as stern, when in reality compared to other parents I'd say I'm somewhere in the middle of strictness. It ultimately impacts her decision making when it comes to our kids. I never realized the significance of the impact of her upbringing until we were well into being married and having our children.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

dkong said:


> Anyway, when I spoke about it with my wife, she denied the lie, and then even called my daughter over and chastised her, telling her to get her story straight and not lie to her father. I still knew something wasn't right. Eventually my wife told the truth about the situation. Even then, she refused to be called a "liar", and instead said that sometimes she doesn't tell me the truth because she thinks I might get upset, or carry on about it. That in itself is a bit offensive, because I'm not a raving madman, I don't have a huge temper. I think I'm fairly placid most of the time.


Of course she doesn't want to be called a liar or admit to being a liar. That makes her feel bad. Sometimes the truth hurts. She is in denial and when you call her on her bad behavior, she blame shifts to you to avoid pain and make you feel bad instead. Furthermore, she blame shifted to her daughter and lied about your daughter, which is child abuse.


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## dkong (Mar 12, 2010)

Daisy12 said:


> make me question why I would want to be with someone like that


Because I love her, and I love our children. We've been together for 20 years, and have 3 children. It might not be a valid reason to perpetuate the situation but I'm attached and it would hurt me to not be an active part of their lives.



Daisy12 said:


> unfortunately unhealthy people look for unhealthy people so maybe a look at yourself might be in order. Why do you feel you deserve to stay with a person who lies and has no qualms about hurting her own daughter to protect herself?


I just made another post which might help answer this question, but we've been together since both being 21 yrs old. It was a fun time back then, times were carefree, we were young and fit, would have sex every day, only had to care about working enough to pay the bills and rent, and had a lot more disposable time and income, so it was like one big honeymoon. It doesn't mean there weren't speed bumps along the way, but negative things were easily dismissed because we had so much positivity in our lives that everything else got squashed or ignored. Fast forward 20 years and 3 kids, and time becomes more scares, our priorities change, and the dynamics change because of children. That is why I never noticed a lot of the subtle "issues" or warning signs, that she is largely mirroring her own dysfunctional upbringing, and stuck in a holding-pattern. It feels like I could be one of two people to her, either someone exactly like her, that would basically turn our situation into a pair of kids raising kids, or that I be me (which I mentioned in my previous post), which is a fairly middle-of-the-pack person in terms of parenting, and that I reflect the basic elements of how I was raised, and learned how to say please, thank you, show gratitude, don't lie, work hard, treat others as you'd want to be treated etc. On principal I don't feel like I want to be with her, because it challenges my inner moral compass, and her actions do bother me. That is my logical brain. My emotional brain however is influenced by the love I have for her and our children. I don't think I have the same passionate love for her as I did, but I still love her, and I am still with her because it's a battle between the conscious brain and my heart.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

dkong said:


> Because I love her, and I love our children. We've been together for 20 years, and have 3 children. It might not be a valid reason to perpetuate the situation but I'm attached and it would hurt me to not be an active part of their lives.
> 
> 
> 
> I just made another post which might help answer this question, but we've been together since both being 21 yrs old. It was a fun time back then, times were carefree, we were young and fit, would have sex every day, only had to care about working enough to pay the bills and rent, and had a lot more disposable time and income, so it was like one big honeymoon. It doesn't mean there weren't speed bumps along the way, but negative things were easily dismissed because we had so much positivity in our lives that everything else got squashed or ignored. Fast forward 20 years and 3 kids, and time becomes more scares, our priorities change, and the dynamics change because of children. That is why I never noticed a lot of the subtle "issues" or warning signs, that she is largely mirroring her own dysfunctional upbringing, and stuck in a holding-pattern. It feels like I could be one of two people to her, either someone exactly like her, that would basically turn our situation into a pair of kids raising kids, or that I be me (which I mentioned in my previous post), which is a fairly middle-of-the-pack person in terms of parenting, and that I reflect the basic elements of how I was raised, and learned how to say please, thank you, show gratitude, don't lie, work hard, treat others as you'd want to be treated etc. On principal I don't feel like I want to be with her, because it challenges my inner moral compass, and her actions do bother me. That is my logical brain. My emotional brain however is influenced by the love I have for her and our children. I don't think I have the same passionate love for her as I did, but I still love her, and I am still with her because it's a battle between the conscious brain and my heart.




Just make sure (somehow) not to have heart and brain in the reversed order. It’s also possible that you don’t actually love her anymore and your brain is finding excuses to explain why you feel the way you feel. Rather than the other way around.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dkong (Mar 12, 2010)

CynthiaDe said:


> Of course she doesn't want to be called a liar or admit to being a liar. That makes her feel bad. Sometimes the truth hurts. She is in denial and when you call her on her bad behavior, she blame shifts to you to avoid pain and make you feel bad instead. Furthermore, she blame shifted to her daughter and lied about your daughter, which is child abuse.


Spot on. But how to deal with that? I told her it wasn't cool to drag our daughter into it, and she went off on a tangent, denying that in fact she was even doing that. 

She is super sensitive and very defensive. She works as a director of a daycare centre and would occasionally send out newsletters. On a couple of occasions I would let her know that I noticed a couple of errors (grammar/spelling), not from a critical grammar Nazi pov, mainly from a professional angle as I would think she wants to know (as I would), but even then she'd get a bit upset about it and say that a staff member wrote the newsletter (even though I see the same grammar/spelling issues in other things she writes). It leaves me in a position where I often don't say anything (about many things), from fear of her reaction, and even when I do, I put the cotton gloves on and think well in advance on how to approach something that seems like a really simple subject, instead of being able to have a fairly simple 5 minute adult discussion.


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## [email protected] (Mar 1, 2018)

dkong said:


> . It leaves me in a position where I often don't say anything (about many things), from fear of her reaction, and even when I do, I put the cotton gloves on and think well in advance on how to approach something that seems like a really simple subject, instead of being able to have a fairly simple 5 minute adult discussion.


Classic sign of a manipulative person. With a normal person, you don't have to think like this. You just make the statement. 

Insofar as lying, for the illumination of the gallery - the ethically correct lie is to your enemies. It is okay to tell the rapist at the door your husband is on his way home from the police department with his .44 magnum. 

My wife and I never ask each other whether we are fat. We tell them we are fat. I tell her I am fat and she tells me she is fat. What I do tell her in response is that it has no affect on my love for her, which is VERY true. The real problem is with her own self-esteem. I support her in exercise and diet actions because it makes her feel better about herself. 

So I am a big fatso and tell my kids, and they have fun calling me fatso. Because I am. That sets a tone for the whole family to readily acknowledge all manner of imperfection, whether it was a mis-pronunciation of a word, or a math problem they did wrong, or an MMA technique they screwed up, etc.

There are a lot of questions you do not have to answer. A lot of people choose to lie when the answer "none of your business" or "I don't know" or "we should discuss this privately", or any of a number of other options that are suitable.

There are three forms of lying. The direct lie. The lie by omission. The lie by inclusion of extraneous misleading information. The first two are self-explanatory. The third is if you ask, for example "did you work on your term paper" and the answer is "the teachers had an in-service day today so there were no classes" - then the answer is "no", but they tried to evade the question with this diversionary tactic.

None of them are acceptable. The latter two are merely more cunning ways to lie. Being more cunning with your lying doesn't make it right.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Brutal honesty is a nice simple way to live but it's not applicable when it comes to wider social interactions. And do you know why?

Because for many people:


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## [email protected] (Mar 1, 2018)

RandomDude said:


> Brutal honesty is a nice simple way to live but it's not applicable when it comes to wider social interactions. And do you know why?
> 
> Because for many people:


And you realize of course, that in the movie that was just rationalization? It was not true. 

So actually, no - it is almost never applicable. 

When a person cannot "handle" the truth, meaning they are going to do great harm to you,(like murder you for example), then self-preservation dictates lying.

But that is just a special case of the general rule that self-preservation against the enemy is the permissible circumstance of lying.

You don't lie to people simply because they can't "handle" the truth. That isn't even a clear principle. If the children cry because the tide is going out and the ship must leave, we don't keep the ship ashore for that reason. 

That movie shows us that the people who use this rationalization are the people who lie for purely selfish reasons. It isn't to rescue anyone.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> And you realize of course, that in the movie that was just rationalization? It was not true.
> 
> So actually, no - it is almost never applicable.
> 
> ...


Haha I wish the world was so simple!

I've already tried brutal honesty, and as respected as I was for it, it didn't work. I learnt my lesson well, and when you represent others as well - you need to be diplomatic.

You don't have to outright lie, and when people depend on your honesty it's a one way ticket to losing trust if you lie, but in many other cases, especially in casual situations, it's best not to tell the whole truth.


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## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

@dkong

After reading more on your situation and understanding better I don’t think this has anything to do with your wife or even your daughters it has to do with you and how your family views the way you react to situations. You daughter went out for MacDonald for a treat, she didn’t smash up the family car, get arrested or even expelled from school yet her desire to not have you find out was so great that she asked her mom to lie for her and not tell you. 

That is very telling and it’s not telling of your daughters behavior or of your wife’s honesty but it is telling of the way you interact with your family. You may not see it, and of course it’s easy to blame your wife and daughter for the apparent dishonesty in this situation but you are in the middle of it all. It’s apparent your children are scared of you or of how you will react and that is a problem as you are suppose to be the person they come to for advice and comfort when things go wrong yet they don’t feel even comfortable to tell you they went out to eat at a fast food restaurant. 

This is behavior you get from people when you are controlling and a micromanager, trust me i know as I was once one myself before I realized the damage I was doing to my husband and my children. 

Now there may very well be a chance that this is all learnt behavior and your wife may be a pathological liar who is training your children to be the same way. Either way as the patriarch of this family you need to lead the way and take control of this situation but remember change always starts from within. Your family won’t change until you do and changing is the hardest this to do, trust me I know. I wish you all the best.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Daisy12 said:


> @dkong
> 
> After reading more on your situation and understanding better I don’t think this has anything to do with your wife or even your daughters it has to do with you and how your family views the way you react to situations. You daughter went out for MacDonald for a treat, she didn’t smash up the family car, get arrested or even expelled from school yet her desire to not have you find out was so great that she asked her mom to lie for her and not tell you.
> 
> ...


I am putting another possibility out there. Maybe the daughter started down the road to secrecy not because of the typical reactions of her Dad, but because the mom has created a frequent environment and dynamic of secrets and lies and "don't tell him" so that was the normal mode.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

dkong said:


> My wife told me a bold-face lie last night. It was something inane, to the extent that I don't even understand why she bothered to lie. I only found out about the lie when my daughter told me something contradictory the next day. I actually believed my 12yr old daughter, because she is generally pretty honest.
> 
> Anyway, when I spoke about it with my wife, she denied the lie, and then even called my daughter over and chastised her, telling her to get her story straight and not lie to her father. I still knew something wasn't right. Eventually my wife told the truth about the situation. Even then, she refused to be called a "liar", and instead said that sometimes she doesn't tell me the truth because she thinks I might get upset, or carry on about it. That in itself is a bit offensive, because I'm not a raving madman, I don't have a huge temper. I think I'm fairly placid most of the time.
> 
> ...


Willingness to lie on small things there will never be a reason to be honest on the larger issues. 

How do you know she has been faithful? Her nature shows she is capable of it as well as being able to hide it completely with no remorse. 

Look at her actions, she gets caught in a lie and ripped into your daughter for not being honest. What type of person does this? I hope you talked with your daughter afterwards and told her she did right. My mom was bad enough but she never pulled a stunt like your wife did.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Daisy12 said:


> @dkong
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bingo. At least that’s exactly how it appeared to me.

I actually think your wife’s attitude towards bringing up children (being their friend (in an authoritative way) rather than their ‘dictator’) is a MUCH better tactic. Being director of a daycare centre, you should cut her some slack that sue knows a thing or two about upbringing.

I have this disagreement with my wife: she is the opposite and felt like needing to control every aspect of the kids’ life. I always felt this would eventually lead to them resenting her later on - I have seen this happening too much and this feeling stays the whole life when the kids grow up too. It’s very sad. She is now much more relaxed with them (while also being strict when needed) and the kids also as a result.

The fact that your daughter stepped in and admitted that she felt bad for going behind your back and asking her mum to cover for her means that she has a healthy conscious and a good moral compass so you and your wife must have done something right...

But I better step back from the thread. It feels like you are determined to find faults and a reason to resent and possibly leave her, before you even posted and possibly looking here for confirmation. I hope you don’t.
Best of luck.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Livvie said:


> I am putting another possibility out there. Maybe the daughter started down the road to secrecy not because of the typical reactions of her Dad, but because the mom has created a frequent environment and dynamic of secrets and lies and "don't tell him" so that was the normal mode.


 I think this is the more logical reason and that dynamic of secrets and lies has a purpose. 
Mom plays the "don't tell him" game to curry favor with the kids, that she has already admitted to being too much buddies with to reprimand properly when needed. It shows she is "one of them" and not the parent and cooler than Dad.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

sandcastle said:


> Truth- are you dating a 19 year old girl?
> 
> And you are how old?
> Let's not get into your open marriage with 50 girliies a year that you and your wife enjoy.
> ...


 In what context does any of this have to [email protected] 's opinion on honesty and lies?
From his posts it sounds like he has been honest with his wife and his "girlies" so what's your point?


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Everyone lies sometimes. My wife’s shrinks assured me of that.

People are tossing around terminology like hot cakes. No one should mention personally disorders without a qualified psychiatrist or psychologist diagnosis.

There are different types of liars. Different reasons for lying. A well qualified psychologist could help you, OP, come to understand how lies are used by people in life.

How many people would really say that child who can’t manage the task is a failure? You find something positive to say instead.

Or the proverbial how does her butt look in those jeans, or how does dinner taste?

My wife lies often. Understanding why matters.

This whole thread seems to have gone to seed, though.


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## dkong (Mar 12, 2010)

Daisy12 said:


> @dkong
> 
> After reading more on your situation and understanding better I don’t think this has anything to do with your wife or even your daughters it has to do with you and how your family views the way you react to situations. You daughter went out for MacDonald for a treat, she didn’t smash up the family car, get arrested or even expelled from school yet her desire to not have you find out was so great that she asked her mom to lie for her and not tell you.


That may well be the case, but as I mentioned, going to McDonald's was never an issue, I actually laughed at it. The issue was the even in light of this my wife still chose to be dishonest about the situation. As I said, everyone lies, as have I, but I think I am sensitive to dishonesty from my wife, not because she told a lie, but because she has some history of lying. For example, several years ago I found an unknown credit card in between the sofa cushions. It was a card I hadn't seen before, but it had my wife's name on it. It took some discussion and time before she admitted that the card was hers (despite obviously having her name on it, and the card being valid), and I went through a series of lies to eventually get the truth. For example:

1. "The card isn't mine"
2. "Ok then, it's mine but it's expired" (but it wasn't expired)
3. "I only got the card the other day"
4. "Ok, I've had the card for 1 year, but there are no payments owed"

in the end it turned out it was her 2nd secret card, and it in fact was being used to pay the $7k owed on the other mystery card which I never knew about either. This was the first time I ever noticed her lying to me (but in hindsight I'm sure it wasn't the first, just the first time I found out about something). I was surprised and a bit hurt, but back then I was resilient, and I calmly spoke about it with her, and told her that she should have let me know and we could have paid it off as we had enough money to cover it, rather than paying 30% interest on two separate cards. I overlooked the situation as a matter of her not having basic financial skills, once again, a trait I believe she picked up from her mother, so I wasn't hard on her. A couple of years later she did it again, another card! The second time around I think it broke me mentally. I'd lost 95% of trust with her when it came to money. I was working two jobs, and always exhausted, and it honestly scared the sh!t out of me to think that I'm working my butt off to provide for the family, yet there was a mountain of unresolved debt underneath us that I didn't know about, so it felt like 2 steps forward, and 3 steps back. It took a lot of work but several years later she is much better with money and there is a level of transparency that makes it feel better, but I still harbour some general trust issues (also in part to some discussions she's had with her mother about our marriage, which I found out second hand, that also impacted my perception of her). So yeah, the way I react to things is different now to how I used to when I was a lot more care free, rather than worrying about what the next surprise will be.



Daisy12 said:


> @dkong
> This is behavior you get from people when you are controlling and a micromanager, trust me i know as I was once one myself before I realized the damage I was doing to my husband and my children.


That's a fair point. I am a fairly type-A person, and I like to be in control, and even when I was a kid I felt that way, but I feel like that is more amplified now, because as per the events I described above, I feel control is also an equal and opposite reaction to a situation that is out of control, and I feel like my wife is the extreme opposite.



Daisy12 said:


> @dkong
> Now there may very well be a chance that this is all learnt behavior and your wife may be a pathological liar who is training your children to be the same way. Either way as the patriarch of this family you need to lead the way and take control of this situation but remember change always starts from within. Your family won’t change until you do and changing is the hardest this to do, trust me I know. I wish you all the best.


Yes, I think there is an element of learned behavior with her as one of the other posters pointed out too. I've found my wife to lie on impulse, and quiet easily, but of course, my personality type may even bring out the worst in her, but by default, I've been surprised many-a-time about the lies she'd tell , even if she's not being backed into a corner so to speak. For example, a couple of weeks ago she had a flat tire. It is pretty cold in our garage in winter (Canada). I was changing the punctured tire for her. I asked if she could turn the accessories on the car to see what the tire pressure gauge reading was (as the sensor on the electric pump wasn't working) when I tested the new tire. She reluctantly did this, and after 1 minute of sitting in the car she said "how long is this going to take?". Another minute went by and she said "I have to go inside and check on the steak as I think it's burning", so she went off. I went inside to wash my hands a moment later, and as it turns out there was no steak in the pan. I didn't care as the steak was actually for the kids, but I was befuddled that she would concoct this lie so easily, when it wasn't even called for, rather than just go inside.


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## dkong (Mar 12, 2010)

ABHale said:


> Look at her actions, she gets caught in a lie and ripped into your daughter for not being honest. What type of person does this? I hope you talked with your daughter afterwards and told her she did right. My mom was bad enough but she never pulled a stunt like your wife did.


Yes, I spoke with my daughter afterwards. I told her that I believed her.


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## dkong (Mar 12, 2010)

inmyprime said:


> Bingo. At least that’s exactly how it appeared to me.
> I actually think your wife’s attitude towards bringing up children (being their friend (in an authoritative way) rather than their ‘dictator’) is a MUCH better tactic.


I don't agree. I may not sound objective but I feel that the behaviour is manipulative, more in the sense that I feel I'm always portrayed as the bad cop. For example, if we are both in the same room and if any of the kids need to be disciplined she usually waits until I pipe up while she tries to stay in the good-cop zone with the kids. On the odd occasion that she does tell the kids off I try to respect her parenting and support her decision, even though in my opinion she's a bit aggressive with them in her tone; which is why this is so ironic. On the other hand when I tell them off she tries to intervene and stick-up for them. It definitely creates a perception of you are safe with Mommy, and Daddy is the bad guy. My 4 year old son can literally dive head-first off the couch in front of my wife and she'd say nothing, yet if I tell him off for his own safety, he may get upset because I'm ruining his fun, and then she's console him, "there, there, no need to be upset". No back-up, no support, just placation. 



inmyprime said:


> Being director of a daycare centre, you should cut her some slack that sue knows a thing or two about upbringing.


You would think that right? I did. But no, not the case. All the theory and child psychology that she studied goes out the window. Slapping my daughter on the face when she was only 5 years old (because she was having a crying fit). Hitting the same 12 year old daughter on the leg just the other day because she was "frustrated" with her. Yelling at my daughter until she re-canted her "lie" (which was actually the truth).

I'm not trying to demonize my wife, or to imply that I'm perfect somehow, but I'm trying to provide some context. Despite all these things, we are still together, but yes, I do often enough think "who the hell are you?"


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## dkong (Mar 12, 2010)

Rubix Cubed said:


> I think this is the more logical reason and that dynamic of secrets and lies has a purpose.
> Mom plays the "don't tell him" game to curry favor with the kids, that she has already admitted to being too much buddies with to reprimand properly when needed. It shows she is "one of them" and not the parent and cooler than Dad.


Yes, that's exactly how I feel. It does make me feel like I'm on the outside, and it hurts even more because I try to show unwavering support to my wife when my eldest daughter tries to talk trash about her. Initially that perplexed me, that my daughter would even consider trying to talk smack about her Mom to me, but now I think that this only happens because my wife may have created an environment where my 12 year old feels comfortable to talk trash to her about me, and that this behavior is now deemed as acceptable because my wife condones it and likely participates in it, and my daughter thinks she can talk to me about her Mom in the same way, which I never would have considered when I was a child, as my parents showed a unified front (even if they didn't agree on something).


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

In MY experience, the little lies are always a red flag. Something more sinister is lurking... Either she is a compulsive liar or the thing she is lying about is a small piece of a bigger picture she doesn't want you to see.

One of the first things the liar throws at you is "I didn't want to tell you because it would just upset you. It was no big deal. You always make a big deal out of things so I didn't share with you." This usually comes from the wife that has zero problems pointing out your faults 24/7, belittles you in front of others, etc. Your feelings had to impact on her behavior then... but NOW all of a sudden she's concerned you may blow up at her. Interesting.

I did a post on this very topic and my experience:

Lying | Dad Starting Over


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

dkong said:


> I don't agree. I may not sound objective but I feel that the behaviour is manipulative, more in the sense that I feel I'm always portrayed as the bad cop. For example, if we are both in the same room and if any of the kids need to be disciplined she usually waits until I pipe up while she tries to stay in the good-cop zone with the kids. On the odd occasion that she does tell the kids off I try to respect her parenting and support her decision, even though in my opinion she's a bit aggressive with them in her tone; which is why this is so ironic. On the other hand when I tell them off she tries to intervene and stick-up for them. It definitely creates a perception of you are safe with Mommy, and Daddy is the bad guy. My 4 year old son can literally dive head-first off the couch in front of my wife and she'd say nothing, yet if I tell him off for his own safety, he may get upset because I'm ruining his fun, and then she's console him, "there, there, no need to be upset". No back-up, no support, just placation.


Yes, thta's not good. You have to make sure she knows that you both have to be on the same page when it comes to disciplining kids. OTOH, perhaps she feels you are too strict with them? (In which case she still shouldn't be making you into the 'bad cop'. That's not a good strategy.




dkong said:


> You would think that right? I did. But no, not the case. All the theory and child psychology that she studied goes out the window. Slapping my daughter on the face when she was only 5 years old (because she was having a crying fit). Hitting the same 12 year old daughter on the leg just the other day because she was "frustrated" with her. Yelling at my daughter until she re-canted her "lie" (which was actually the truth).
> 
> I'm not trying to demonize my wife, or to imply that I'm perfect somehow, but I'm trying to provide some context. Despite all these things, we are still together, but yes, I do often enough think "who the hell are you?"


Hitting them is also not ok. You need to establish a dialogue with her. Perhaps this incident with fast food (while not major in any way, viewed on its own) is a good starting point to have a serious conversation with her and agree on some rules & boundaries.


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