# Serious, faithful married couple considering intimacy with a younger, close friend



## Neutral (Jun 29, 2011)

*Summary*

My wife and I, both monogamous, are considering being more intimate with a very good friend of ours. If anyone has been in this (rather confusing!) situation, I'd really like to hear about it.

*Full Version*

My wife and I (mid-30s) have been married for about a decade now, and are still very much in love. We care deeply about each other and are good at showing it -- and the sex, while having slipped to only about twice per week, is still great because we try to keep it exciting. I don't feel that we're missing anything, have a hole in our lives, etc., and we've never been unfaithful or even seriously entertained the idea of a threesome. (As husband and wife, that is -- we've both had our share of threesomes and other crazy sex stuff before meeting each other. We are _anything_ but prudes.)

About six months ago, our friend Dawn (19-y/o) lost her home, and we took her in without hesitation so she could get back on her feet. It wasn't a huge burden, as we have a guest room -- but more important, we love her very much. It'd be fair to say that she's my _and_ my wife's best friend, and the three of us have gotten along great. We were worried that going from "weekly interaction" to "constant interaction" would strain our friendship, but it's only grown; we have a ton of fun together, talk about everything, and really understand each other.

My wife and I have always been comfortable flirting (_just_ flirting!) with our friends, and when you live with someone, boundaries tend to blur a bit. We went from the occasional hug, to frequent group hugs, to outright snuggling together. It was obviously heading somewhere, so the three of us sat down to discuss the situation like adults. And that brings me to right now....

I'm hesitant to bring a third person into our relationship. I've seen marriages destroyed by jealousy from a single threesome. While I think our relationship is _much_ stronger than any of the "destroyed" examples I can name, that's still a serious concern; my wife is the most important thing in my world, hands down. But when I look at my wife and Dawn snuggling, I don't feel jealous -- I feel like my wife is just expressing love for a close friend. And she's said the same about me and Dawn. And perhaps most important, we don't want to make her "part of our marriage." Dawn has said that not only would she not want that, but she wouldn't even want a true commitment with us (beyond our commitment of "best friends forever," of course), because she doesn't want to ruin her chances of finding a real boy- or girlfriend. (She may be young, but she's not stupid.)

We agreed that we're all interested and that we should see where it goes, but take it slow. As of now, we haven't done anything overtly sexual -- we're just open to the idea of it happening and letting nature take its course.

Has anyone reading this been in this situation or a similar one? If so, I'd really appreciate you sharing, as I'm a bit conflicted. On the one hand, I believe in monogamy and I'm scared from seeing other relationships get screwed up when a wild card like this is introduced. But on the other hand, our marriage is _very_ strong, the extra love so far has brightened up an already-happy home, and I feel like we're setting realistic expectations and being fairly smart about it. Thoughts?


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## lyngreen504 (Jun 7, 2011)

My husband and I have brought up threesomes, but with people we will never see again. I see a friend being a problem. The relationship you have with your wife and your friend sounds great, but sex ALWAYS complicates things. In my eyes, it's a risk far too great to take. If I were you, or your wife I would not choose her and if your feelings keep growing for your friend (either your wife and you), things could get ugly. Things might sound exciting to your wife, but she is also younger and could pose a threat to her. It's like have a threesome with a man with a penis three inches bigger than yours, at some point that could be a threat that you wouldn't feel comfortable with. 

keep it clean and look for someone that you will never see again, or have that option with. unless you are willing to loose this friend forever in case things get complicated then go for it, i'm sure your wife and you will choose each other before her.


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## Neutral (Jun 29, 2011)

lyngreen504 said:


> sex ALWAYS complicates things.


I know what you mean. And thanks for the advice; I appreciate you taking the time. 



> keep it clean and look for someone that you will never see again,


Thing is, you're missing an important bit here -- my wife and I _don't_ just want to have a threesome for the sake of having a threesome. The _only_ reason we're considering this is because of who it is, and how we feel about her. If we end up not doing this with Dawn, there's zero chance that we're going to go out and find someone to hook up with.

I do appreciate your advice, though if I didn't make the above point clearly enough, I'm not sure how applicable it is to me.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Neutral said:


> *Summary*
> 
> My wife and I, both monogamous, are considering being more intimate with a very good friend of ours. If anyone has been in this (rather confusing!) situation, I'd really like to hear about it.
> 
> ...


This could be the biggest sh!te test of your life from your wife. Go ahead with it, you’ve failed and she’ll get you out of her life. Turn it down and things will be different.


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## Neutral (Jun 29, 2011)

AFEH said:


> This could be the biggest sh!te test of your life from your wife.


Thanks for the reply, and the concern, but that's _definitely_ not the case. My wife and I don't play games with each other or lie to each other -- if there's something one of us has to say, we say it. I wouldn't marry a woman who felt the need to "test" me; that speaks to a lack of trust, and we trust each other completely.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

For starters you took a young homeless vulnerable girl into your home, and obviously you both are taking advantage of that. Charming!

No matter how mature you think she is, she is only 19 yrs old, and really she doesn't seem to have a lot of options, and the people she trusts are showing her that this is normal and what married people do. She probably looks up to and admires you both.

I wonder if you have any daughters and you would be OK with them doing something like this?

A part from the fact that you would be using this young girl, you would also be adding another person to your marriage. A marriage is between 2 people. How do two people become closer by adding a third?

Eventually someone will get shafted or feel neglected, it could be you, your wife or her but someones going to be hurt, probably all three of you.

Have you thought about pregnancies, which are a risk no matter what form of birth control you use?

By opening up your marriage like this you could be opening a can of worms, as your wife may require more later to feel satisfied, maybe want to add a man? Could you reasonably say no to that after doing this.

You are at the heart of this saying, "You don't satisfy me, you aren't enough for me, you aren't young enough" etc etc. Even if you swear you don't feel that way, that is the message you will be sending.

Your wife may react by eventually feeling that she has to prove her self worth through her sexuality, and that probably won't be as fun for you as it sounds. You are showing your wife how little value she holds for you if you do this, and you are allowing the marriage to go down a dangerous path.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Quite a few people will disagree, but did you two ever consider not taking advantage of this young woman who is in a very vulnerable place in her life?

Excuse me, but don't even try to pass it off as caring for this girl. You want to mount a young babe, and you are convincing yourself that you can feel like the Pope for doing so.

I have a daughter who is 19. She is incredibly smart, but she and every one of her friends would be completly unprepared to handle leeches who pose as a caretaker. 

Three times, my wife and I have taken in young people who lost their homes, and we never once thought of exchanging rent for your version of love. In fact, if the people who consult our lawmakers determine that 21 is the legal drinking age, imagine what they'll think of a 19 year old's ability to address this complicated decision. You have her in a very vulnerable place, and she is grateful. If you use this to take advantage of her, eventually your wife will figure out that she is married to a sociopath.

Of course, this is just my opinion.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Having been a 19 year old who lost her home and lived with a couple, where the man was interested in something, I have to say I'd give this a thumbs-down. If you want to have a relationship with her, get her counseling for her broken/lost home, establish her independently in her own independent living situation and when she is financially and emotionally on her own feet and can soundly consent to such an agreement without (1) fear of losing her home or (2) knowledge that if she refuses and continues to accept your kindness and generosity of a home that when she takes a shower or gets her coffee in the morning, etc. you will be possibly having sexual thoughts about her. 

It's just unbalanced in terms of free choice.
Personally I think you're nuts.

By the way, I severed ties with these people who 'helped me'.
I am pretty sure the woman was having an affair behind her H's back and that was why the intimacy went out of their relationship. On the surface they were 'good Christians'. The guy was a perve. He went through my underwear. At least out of the three of us, I had a good head on my shoulders and realized I needed to get out before their marriage blew. And it did.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

This reeks of taking advantage of someone in a difficult position. She may be expressing interest in the "relationship", but how do you know she isn't feeling pressured to do so? 

You and your wife should be mature enough to realize that she isn't mature enough or in a position to make a rational decision regarding a sexual relationship with you.


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## JTL (Dec 14, 2009)

Wow, i am a little surprised at the hostility in some of the reply's. If the situation is exactly as you have described i see no reason to condemn you. However, i must agree with some of the posters. I do not think this is a wise decision. Many happily married couples engage in alternative lifestyles. Many can swing with different partners and maintain their close relationship and enhance it. From what i've seen and read, they are not doing this with a live in friend or friends. You already had a relationship with this person, that according to you, has grown since she moved in. Add sex to this and you've got a full blown relationship! With 3 people! Men tend to be able to seperate sex and love while women (mostly, not all) tend to find them deeply tied. I would guess that 90% of the time, in the situation you're describing, sex with this girl will lead to disaster. Even if you avoid all the jealosy, hurt feeling issues between you and your wife, what about the 19 yr old? While she certainly is a legal adult, she is far from a true adult. She may not have the life experience necessary to carry off a live in threesome with a married couple and come out unscathed. If she was just an aquaintance and everyone was on board i'd say go for it, but not this way. I have just 1 last question (and please don't take this the wrong way): How is it, that a happily married, mid 30's couple has a 19 year old female friend? My wife and i are the same age and have many close friends but they're all our age (+,- 5 yrs)


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

JTL said:


> Wow, i am a little surprised at the hostility in some of the reply's. If the situation is exactly as you have described i see no reason to condemn you.


There is simply a lack of concern for this girl's situation. Simple as that. If you want to have a threesome, you don't first put the person in a position where they feel that they owe you. At 19, has she even had the opportunity to learn her sexual boundaries? Given a secure relationship with one man or woman, and been able to compare this to a life of sharing without being manipulated by a middle-aged guy?

When I was 20, I was leaving a friend's room in the middle of the night in a coed dorm and heard a 19-20 year old girl being raped a few doors down. I burst into the room and removed her from the two guys that were forcing their way on her. She was scared, vulnerable, so I waited for her at the police station (no penetration, so hospital was not needed). On the way home, she let me know that she was willing to sleep with me. Like any person with a shred of decency, I didn't. Weeks later, I ran into her and she thanked me for not taking advantage of her. This girl, 'Dawn', has found herself homeless. If anything, she needs someone to show her that there are people in the world who will help her without wanting anything in return. If the OP understood how to care for someone, he would maintain a friendship until she was responsible and independent, and then ask her again. 99.9999% of semi-attractive young adult women would say, "Over my dead body" if the guy was already married and twice her age.


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

A lot of men get turned on by two women together. But you are an adult an a 19 year old is barely able to handle life. She needs parents who love her, not sickos who take advantage. That you would even consider this makes me sick. 

Tell your wife to either act like a true friend and leave tbst girl alone or the girl has to leave.

You may be committed and monogamous, but your wife isn't. But I question your portrayal of yourself. I think you are no different than any selfish guy who wants a threesome and a young girl.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JLynnMann (Apr 6, 2011)

Also quite sickened and disheartened here.... I know there are those whom will take advantage of a person but this is royally screwed up.
You both, under the guise of caring and loving this girl, have set her up for a very awkward and painful experience early on in her life. This sort of situation could scar her for life and all you are considering is whether or not it will hurt your marraige. 
This does not sound like love or caring for this child you have soooo graciously taken in. As adult as you may see her as being I do believe you have put on blinders so that you will not feel guilt over taking advantage of a very young lady in a tight spot.
I would be ashamed to even find myself having these feelings for a teenager let alone one whom has come to rely on me for some needs. It would make me sick to have such thoughts let alone entertain the idea. Disgusting. 
If, god forbid, my daughter ever ran into someone whom would so blatantly use her.... Let me say my wrath and my husband's would be a force to be reckoned with.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Halien said:


> Quite a few people will disagree, but did you two ever consider not taking advantage of this young woman who is in a very vulnerable place in her life?
> 
> Excuse me, but don't even try to pass it off as caring for this girl. You want to mount a young babe, and you are convincing yourself that you can feel like the Pope for doing so.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

This is not a plan spawned between equals. It is a manipulative scenario.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Sick. I know a 19 year old is considered a legal adult but when you're a couple who is in their 30's there is NO EXCUSE to get involved with a 19 year old sexually that you took in to help her on her way in life.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

This makes me sad. All I see is a scared young woman pushed to the ragged edge.


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## Kricket (May 10, 2011)

Syrum said:


> For starters you took a young homeless vulnerable girl into your home, and obviously you both are taking advantage of that. Charming!
> 
> No matter how mature you think she is, she is only 19 yrs old, and really she doesn't seem to have a lot of options, and the people she trusts are showing her that this is normal and what married people do. She probably looks up to and admires you both.
> 
> ...


My thoughts exactly. This girl is too young and vulnerable despite how mature you think she may be. She also may think she owes you something for taking her in. If you engage her in something like this, you could ruin her future relationships. 

It will not end well for any of you.


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## Kricket (May 10, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> This makes me sad. All I see is a scared young woman pushed to the ragged edge.


Me too.


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## lonelyman (Jun 28, 2011)

Neutral said:


> the sex, while having slipped to only about twice per week, is still great because we try to keep it exciting. I don't feel that we're missing anything


if you are not missing anything then there is no need to change anything, this situation is a nightmare waiting to happen, if you both really want somebody else in the bedroom find a stranger, not somebody you both know personally,

stop trying to take advantage of the situation and a YOUNG GIRL that is nearly HALF your age with obviously nowhere left to turn, you both sound like preying pedophiles to me,


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## Riverside MFT (Oct 5, 2009)

Neutral, you have come to a forum where people value marriage, and understand the importance of marriage in our society. I imagine that you care about marriage as well. When you made your marriage vows, they were between you and your wife (and maybe even God). You did not make any vows with this other woman. I get worried when people say, I am _strong enough_ or my marriage is _strong enough_ to handle something like this. Truth is, no marriage is ever _strong enough_. Marriage is something that you have to work on every day. If you invited this woman into the sexual aspect of your marriage and then you have a disagreement with your wife, do you turn to this other woman for help? Would your wife turn to this other woman instead of you when things weren't going well? What if your wife found out that this woman was able to please her better than you? What then? What if this younger woman decided that she wanted to continue the relationship, but you did not? Neutral, there are too many variables here that would cause severe problems down the road. Don't play around with this fire.


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## lonelyman (Jun 28, 2011)

Riverside MFT said:


> Neutral, you have come to a forum where people value marriage, and understand the importance of marriage in our society. I imagine that you cae about marriage as well. When you made your marriage vows, they were between you and your wife (and maybe even God). You did not make any vows with this other woman. I get worried when people say, I am _strong enough_ or my marriage is_strong enough_ to handle something like this. Truth is, no marriage is ever _strong enough_. Marriage is something that you have to work on every day. If you invited this woman into the sexual aspect of your marriage and then you have a disagreement with your wife, do you turn to this other woman for help? Would your wife turn to this other woman instead of you when things weren't going well? What if your wife found out that this woman was able to please her better than you? What then? What if this younger woman decided that she wanted to continue the relationship, but you did not? Neutral, there are too many variables here that would cause severe problems down the road. Don't play around with this fire.


exactly what i was trying to say, you just said it better, lol, very well put


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## shaung (Mar 18, 2011)

A 'serious, faithful' married couple would never consider what you are talking about. What if your wife gets jealous? What happens then? What if this girl falls 'in love' with you? What would your wife say about that? What if this girl starts talking about bringing other men into the circle? Are you fully prepared for your wife having sex with other men, and the aftermath? What if this girl starts demanding sex from you when your wife is not around? What do you do then? What if she 'secretly' wants your wife to join her with some other man behind your back 'just once'? How would that make you feel?

These are just a few things off the top of my head, in reality there are hundreds of ways this could go sour for your marriage. Is it really worth it?

If it were a one time thing with a stranger, perhaps I would be open to it, but with someone who lives with you....you will be opening a huge can of worms with many unintended consequences.


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## lonelyman (Jun 28, 2011)

shaung said:


> in reality there are hundreds of ways this could go sour for your marriage.


i agree, that is why i summed it up by saying "this is a nightmare waiting to happen", i couldnt be bothered listing all of the possibilities, lol


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

@Neutral

I think some of the comments made in this thread actually speaks a lot of truth; as 19 is a very young age - you have to make sure she doesn't feel pressured about this, and the fact that she is homeless does make it rather suspicious as well.

But we don't know your situation, maybe she's mature for her age, but we don't know. You let your heart decide what's best for her as well as your marriage. You also need to set boundaries if you wish to go through with this.

In my opinion, it sounds like this is something that has been in your friend's mind, perhaps a fantasy. One problem; your wife and you have a strong marriage sure, but your friend -> she may get emotionally attached through this.


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## FieryHairedLady (Mar 24, 2011)

Halien said:


> There is simply a lack of concern for this girl's situation. Simple as that. If you want to have a threesome, you don't first put the person in a position where they feel that they owe you. At 19, has she even had the opportunity to learn her sexual boundaries? Given a secure relationship with one man or woman, and been able to compare this to a life of sharing without being manipulated by a middle-aged guy?
> 
> When I was 20, I was leaving a friend's room in the middle of the night in a coed dorm and heard a 19-20 year old girl being raped a few doors down. I burst into the room and removed her from the two guys that were forcing their way on her. She was scared, vulnerable, so I waited for her at the police station (no penetration, so hospital was not needed). On the way home, she let me know that she was willing to sleep with me. Like any person with a shred of decency, I didn't. Weeks later, I ran into her and she thanked me for not taking advantage of her. This girl, 'Dawn', has found herself homeless. If anything, she needs someone to show her that there are people in the world who will help her without wanting anything in return. If the OP understood how to care for someone, he would maintain a friendship until she was responsible and independent, and then ask her again. 99.9999% of semi-attractive young adult women would say, "Over my dead body" if the guy was already married and twice her age.


That is really awesome that you would rescue that girl. WTG!!! :smthumbup:


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Halien makes me swoon.


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## FieryHairedLady (Mar 24, 2011)

I don't think this is a good idea. I think you need to help this girl find a good home elsewhere. 

It could only lead to alot of trouble for all of you.

honor your vows and commitment to your wife.


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## annagarret (Jun 12, 2011)

Don't,Don't, Don't do it. My husband and I have talked about this scenario many times but to do it with close married friends that we trust, love and are attracted to. It is a huge fantasy of ours. We have learned that that is exactly what it is, a fantasy. So we will never do it!

This threesome would not end well. In our brains our fantasies escalate and escalate to make it feel like it's the right thing to do and nothing bad would happen. Your marriage would never be the same, for example, what if the young lady leaves or ends the threesome and you two aren't ready and are crushed to see her go? It will then change the dynamics of your sexual relationship. Or what if your wife, thinking she wants it now, changes her mind later, but you and this young lady don't want to. Your wife may leave you, and dont say she won't cause situations like these change people. Or what if your wife turns to this young lady more often and prefers her over you? Its a lose, lose situation

I will even say this much, you need to get that young women out of your house. She needs to contact agencies to get her subsidized housing, a job and an education. If you and your wife REALLY love her like you say, do this for her. That is TRUE love of a friend.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Inloveforeverwithhubby said:


> That is really awesome that you would rescue that girl. WTG!!! :smthumbup:


Thank you, but the plan was simple: barge in a make a lot of noise, hoping that some bigger guys would show up. But the guys knew that they were doing something wrong, and tried to imply that I heard her wrong. What part of, "No, no, don't.." was I misunderstanding?


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## Neutral (Jun 29, 2011)

JTL said:


> Wow, i am a little surprised at the hostility in some of the reply's.


Yeah, me too! I don't mind people questioning my judgment -- I mean, if I wasn't questioning it myself, I wouldn't be here asking for opinions and advice, right? But when people respond by bringing in comments about coercion, pedophilia, and such, it's a clear indicator that I'm hitting some sort of personal hot button and getting an irrational, "gut" response instead of an intelligent one. I'm not looking for knee-jerk reactions -- I'm hoping to get the opinions of people who seem like they've actually thought about my situation for a few minutes before replying.

Or, to put it another way, if someone is going out of their way to tell me what horrible people my wife and I are and how sick and depraved they find us, why would I assume that their advice for us is intended to be helpful? It's hard to feel that someone genuinely has our best interests at heart when they're throwing a mix of anger and insults our way. Being a jerk when replying doesn't help _anyone._



> If the situation is exactly as you have described i see no reason to condemn you.


Thank you. If we are making a mistake, it's just that: a mistake. There's no grand plan here to manipulate or prey on anyone.



> You already had a relationship with this person, that according to you, has grown since she moved in. Add sex to this and you've got a full blown relationship!


That makes sense. See, both my wife and I have always been very open, sexually. We've always talked about our sex lives with our close friends (sharing tips, advice, etc.), skinny-dipped with them, and so on. So it may be our natural lack of firm boundaries making this seem like not a big deal . . . but when you put it the way you do, I have to agree that, while there may be a very fuzzy line between "friend" and "more than a friend," outright sex is definitely on the latter side of said line.



> She may not have the life experience necessary to carry off a live in threesome with a married couple and come out unscathed. If she was just an aquaintance and everyone was on board i'd say go for it, but not this way.


I see what you mean . . . and I know we would both be devastated if we really hurt her in any way.



> I have just 1 last question (and please don't take this the wrong way): How is it, that a happily married, mid 30's couple has a 19 year old female friend? My wife and i are the same age and have many close friends but they're all our age (+,- 5 yrs)


(Don't worry, I didn't take it the wrong way!) Neither of us has ever particularly cared about age when it comes to being friends. At our last house party, the difference between the youngest person and the oldest was over 50 years! I attend a lot of video game events, for example, and often meet people younger or older than me who are really cool and interesting folks. If I've been playing an online game with someone and I think he's cool and we should hang out, that's not going to change if I find out he's 62, you know? As my grandpa used to say, "Good folks is good folks, and that's all that you should let matter."



Riverside MFT said:


> If you invited this woman into the sexual aspect of your marriage and then you have a disagreement with your wife, do you turn to this other woman for help? Would your wife turn to this other woman instead of you when things weren't going well?


That's worth thinking about, I agree. It's sometimes hard to take these possibilities into account because my wife and I pretty much never fight; we always just talk things out and fix them. (No, seriously; we've had only two real fights in the 10+ years we've been together, and resolved both by the next day.) I've been thinking of this as a balanced triangle, with our relationship as the wide base, and our connection to Dawn as uniform (but smaller) lines... but if it went lopsided, that could cause problems.



RandomDude said:


> I think some of the comments made in this thread actually speaks a lot of truth; as 19 is a very young age - you have to make sure she doesn't feel pressured about this, and the fact that she is homeless does make it rather suspicious as well.


I may not have put enough thought into her situation, true. I truly don't believe she considers herself pressured -- believe me, she is _not_ the type to hide her feelings! -- but she may feel so subconsciously, since she's living in our home. (Do note that she's no longer homeless and destitute, though! That was six months ago. I just didn't go into greater detail on her much improved financial situation because I didn't want to write a book. At this point, she's a roommate, not a burden.)



> In my opinion, it sounds like this is something that has been in your friend's mind, perhaps a fantasy. One problem; your wife and you have a strong marriage sure, but your friend -> she may get emotionally attached through this.


True. We don't tend to think of her as being all that young, just because she doesn't act it _at all_ -- the reason we started hanging out with her is because her level of intelligence and maturity was greater than that of most 30-somethings I know. So it feels kind of haughty and condescending of me to say that Dawn may not be ready to make a decision like this... but the truth is that she _may_ not be.

So...

My wife and I have been talking about this, obviously, and I've brought up some of the points from this thread (from the rational responses, that is). If nothing else, it seems clear that once we cross a line, we can't _uncross_ it. So we agreed that, while we still enjoy the intimacy of snuggling, hugging, etc., we would not do anything sexual with Dawn. No sex and no making out. Since we crossed the "cuddling" line some time ago, and it doesn't seem to have caused any issues, I don't think it's necessary to force things into reverse back to the other side of that line. I'm going to talk to Dawn about it today.

Thanks for the advice above, and thanks to the others who took the time to raise valid issues without adding vitriol, sarcasm, and hate. (I didn't quote every useful reply, because some posts I didn't have anything to say to -- I just read it, accepted the advice, and thought about it for a while.) This situation is obviously still in flux, so please feel free to keep commenting; more feedback is always good.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Neutral said:


> Yeah, me too! I don't mind people questioning my judgment -- I mean, if I wasn't questioning it myself, I wouldn't be here asking for opinions and advice, right? But when people respond by bringing in comments about coercion, pedophilia, and such, it's a clear indicator that I'm hitting some sort of personal hot button and getting an irrational, "gut" response instead of an intelligent one. I'm not looking for knee-jerk reactions -- I'm hoping to get the opinions of people who seem like they've actually thought about my situation for a few minutes before replying.
> 
> Or, to put it another way, if someone is going out of their way to tell me what horrible people my wife and I are and how sick and depraved they find us, why would I assume that their advice for us is intended to be helpful? It's hard to feel that someone genuinely has our best interests at heart when they're throwing a mix of anger and insults our way. Being a jerk when replying doesn't help _anyone._
> 
> ...


Sorry, I'm sarcastic and hateful by nature


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## Neutral (Jun 29, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Sorry, I'm sarcastic and hateful by nature


And also an over-quoter. Still, I accept your apology.


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## Riverside MFT (Oct 5, 2009)

Neutral said:


> So...
> 
> My wife and I have been talking about this, obviously, and I've brought up some of the points from this thread (from the rational responses, that is). If nothing else, it seems clear that once we cross a line, we can't _uncross_ it. So we agreed that, while we still enjoy the intimacy of snuggling, hugging, etc., we would not do anything sexual with Dawn. No sex and no making out. Since we crossed the "cuddling" line some time ago, and it doesn't seem to have caused any issues, I don't think it's necessary to force things into reverse back to the other side of that line. I'm going to talk to Dawn about it today.


WTG in thinking about this before actually crossing the line. When people are dealing with sexual issues and emotions it is easy to get caught up in emotions and passions and not be able to think logically.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Neutral said:


> And also an over-quoter. Still, I accept your apology.


That's a new one! I've never heard that before. he he he


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Neutral said:


> I may not have put enough thought into her situation, true. I truly don't believe she considers herself pressured -- believe me, she is _not_ the type to hide her feelings! -- but she may feel so subconsciously, since she's living in our home. (Do note that she's no longer homeless and destitute, though! That was six months ago. I just didn't go into greater detail on her much improved financial situation because I didn't want to write a book. At this point, she's a roommate, not a burden.)
> 
> ... True. We don't tend to think of her as being all that young, just because she doesn't act it _at all_ -- the reason we started hanging out with her is because her level of intelligence and maturity was greater than that of most 30-somethings I know. So it feels kind of haughty and condescending of me to say that Dawn may not be ready to make a decision like this... but the truth is that she _may_ not be.


I understand that, age and maturity can sometimes be two different things. I was the same way as well despite (or because of) a difficult childhood. It's good that you're starting to take to account the possibilities of her readiness in terms of this too.

However, it doesn't mean that things can't happen positively. I still remember a friendship I had in the past with this girl who I also grew up with. We were quite close but were still just friends. There wasn't really a spark emotionally but the physical attraction and social connection was still there. Sure we cared for each other but not in 'that way'. Regardless we had quite a lot of 'fun' together. We both moved on eventually but on a very good note, and we also learnt quite a lot from our experiences with each other.

The thing is - we both knew *where we stood and where we will always stand* with each other, it was very clear; hence boundaries weren't crossed, expectations weren't raised, and we remained casual. If your friend is the same way as my old friend then I can't see why not, but it's a heavy risk if she isn't; for if boundaries do get crossed, if expectations are raised, the cost is not just your friendship, but hurting someone you care about.

My friend and I grew up together so we knew what we were ready for or not. I don't know how long you know your friend, and as she's young her desire for 'fun' MAY cloud her own judgement too - do take that into consideration. Besides, there's always other alternatives to sex. The snuggling and cuddling is a good safeguard, but you can also have fun with strip poker or other adult-orientated party games. It doesn't always have to lead to sex.

Regardless, I hope you all make the right decisions in the end.


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

If you and your wife continue physical contact with her, you will find yourself back here in time. All it takes is one weak moment. Don't you value your relationship with your wife? Why are you so willing to risk it.

So many affairs begin innocently. So many lives ruined.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Musikman212 (Jun 29, 2011)

My wife and I have been there and done that. Our threesome partner was a man, but we had a great, fun relationship with him for several years. There was never any jealousy or any problems until he met a female friend of ours at our house and they became a couple at which point we stopped having the threesomes. We are now all fiends and the two of them are married.
We all have been very open between the four of us about the relationship we shared and she has recently expressed an interest in starting a new sexual relationship with all four of us participating.
The moral of this story is that you should do what makes all three of you happy and be open and forthright about your feeling with each other from the start. It could be the beginning of a beautiful relationship. It all depends on the three of you.


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## paramore (Jan 11, 2011)

please dont do it, maybe this girl is mature enough or not, dont bring a third person in, if there is emotional connections, this will end in disaster, true story
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Neutral said:


> Yeah, me too! I don't mind people questioning my judgment -- I mean, if I wasn't questioning it myself, I wouldn't be here asking for opinions and advice, right? But when people respond by bringing in comments about coercion, pedophilia, and such, it's a clear indicator that I'm hitting some sort of personal hot button and getting an irrational, "gut" response instead of an intelligent one. I'm not looking for knee-jerk reactions -- I'm hoping to get the opinions of people who seem like they've actually thought about my situation for a few minutes before replying..


Some of us have put real thought into this, and still feel that you are convincing yourself that this is okay, when this girl will very likely finish growing up and see it very differently.

It sounds like you've never been victimized, so you can't understand the real ramifications of passive intimidation. You've invited a homeless girl into your home, opened your arms, and of course she cares for your. She trusts you. If you say that this progression is natural, it is entirely possible that this is the closest thing to agape love that she has ever experienced.

Because you describe her as mature, its easy to think of your relationship as fair, and uncoerced in a passive way. Yet, just call her a 19 year old illegal immigrant from Mexico, who is mature, and welcomed into a comparatively wealthy home full of love ... but with an implied condition ... then I would challenge you that even you might react completely different. Now, you've added the cultural 'victim' label, and most of our society will say that this person should be treated to a completely non-physical love relationship.

I was 'mature' by your definition at 12. I mean, I lived on the street alone for eight weeks just a few months later, and took care of myself. Just before that, when I was temporarily placed with a foster couple ... god I loved that couple!! Of course I wanted whatever they wanted. They took me in when my mother left me on a curb. So she wanted to give me a blowjob? Who cared? Does this seem more 'right' at 13? According to you, this same feeling of thankfulness becomes right at 19, just as long as I told you it was right, and I felt that it was right.

I'm not a person with a kneejerk reaction. Try living with no options in life other than one couple who opens their arms to you before trying to justify yourself. Yes, I agree that this girl might want this. She's pretty vocal, as you said, just like I was at 12. Just picture yourself having a face to face discussion with her future husband ... you know, the one that she chooses when she becomes independent of passive coercion. I don't think he'll buy in to your brand of love.

Incidentally, if she were 19, mature, independent and living in her own apartment, then I would've never answered this post. With consenting, unpressured adults, to each his own.


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

Musikman212 said:


> My wife and I have been there and done that. Our threesome partner was a man, but we had a great, fun relationship with him for several years. There was never any jealousy or any problems until he met a female friend of ours at our house and they became a couple at which point we stopped having the threesomes. We are now all fiends and the two of them are married.
> We all have been very open between the four of us about the relationship we shared and she has recently expressed an interest in starting a new sexual relationship with all four of us participating.
> The moral of this story is that you should do what makes all three of you happy and be open and forthright about your feeling with each other from the start. It could be the beginning of a beautiful relationship. It all depends on the three of you.


how old was this other man?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Neutral (Jun 29, 2011)

Halien said:


> You've invited a homeless girl into your home, opened your arms, and of course she cares for your. She trusts you. If you say that this progression is natural, it is entirely possible that this is the closest thing to agape love that she has ever experienced.
> 
> Because you describe her as mature, its easy to think of your relationship as fair, and uncoerced in a passive way.


The above are all good points, and as they're not sandwiched between personal attacks, I will definitely take them into consideration. (Really.)



> I'm not a person with a kneejerk reaction.


Well then, understand that when your reply is full of sarcasm/rudeness ("you want to mount a young babe and [...] feel like the Pope for doing so"), accusations of lying about my intentions and feelings ("don't even try to pass it off as caring for this girl"), and outright insults and flames ("leeches," "sociopath"), then that's how it's going to come across -- as an emotional, angry, kneejerk reaction.

If I didn't care at all about this friend, I wouldn't have come on here to talk about it -- I would have just "mounted" her, as you so delicately put it.

And if you truly felt that she's being "victimized" and that you should say something, you can do so in a reasonable and rational manner. Because if you're going to make personal attacks and flame me, I have a hard time believing that your opinion comes from a place of caring -- instead, it seems more likely that you were just looking for someone to vent your personal anger on.

(And obviously, this goes for all of the flamers in this thread, not just Halien.)


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

Ignoring an honest response because you don't like the delivery isn't very open minded either.

You don't have children. If you did you would certainly see this differently.

If this were your daughter, would you honestly tell her that the arrangement these older people are considering is loving and in her best interests?

Think too if she meets a nice man who would leave her because of her moral issues or the damage something like this could do to her ability to trust or to even believe she can be loved for anything but sex.

She is a girl in a woman's body. Worldly she may be, but that doesn't mean that you should take advantage of the damage she has already suffered.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Neutral (Jun 29, 2011)

I think something I said in my OP is being taken the wrong way. When I say that when Dawn lost her home and we took her in "without hesitation," I'm not saying so because I think we're saints for doing so, or that we're entitled to something for it, or anything like that! My choice of words was intended to emphasize that she's one of the few friends we have who we trust and love enough to do something like that for. There are _many_ people for whom we'd "hesitate" if they were to show up on our front door, bag in hand -- I just wanted to make it clear that Dawn isn't one of them.

Anyway, I'm still reading this thread, and it hasn't gone unnoticed that the non-rude responses have ranged from "don't do it" to "be really careful"; that's why (as I posted earlier), we've agreed that sex (or anything sexual) with her would be a mistake. So thanks for the advice on that.


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

Nurture her. Show her true love by never putting her in a position of doing something she will later regret and possiblely hate you for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Neutral (Jun 29, 2011)

ClipClop said:


> Ignoring an honest response because you don't like the delivery isn't very open minded either.


Anyone who feels the need to insult and attack the people they're talking to is someone who has already shown poor judgment and weak communication skills. Therefore, I'm extremely unlikely to take such a person's advice. The method of delivery may not affect the actual message, but it _definitely_ tells me something about the person doing the delivering -- which tells me whether I should bother listening to them. Basically, I don't respect flamers, so I'm not going to take advice from them, because there's no point in taking advice from people you don't respect.

I came to this site by choice to look for advice. I didn't agree to stand for being insulted. If that's what people want to do, that's their right, but I can't imagine why anyone would expect me to sit here and take it -- instead I'll just shrug, delete my bookmark for this site, and leave. I need help working through this situation, not added stress.

(Note: I really do appreciate the help I've gotten so far from _many_ of you. I think you've helped us avoid crossing a line that didn't need to be crossed. I'm not giving up on this site yet, as so far there's been far more "advice" than "flames." And some people who started off with flames have even calmed down and offered genuinely useful comments. I'm very glad that some people are willing to help their fellow man through a confusing and complex issue.)


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Neutral said:


> The above are all good points, and as they're not sandwiched between personal attacks, I will definitely take them into consideration. (Really.)
> 
> 
> Well then, understand that when your reply is full of sarcasm/rudeness ("you want to mount a young babe and [...] feel like the Pope for doing so"), accusations of lying about my intentions and feelings ("don't even try to pass it off as caring for this girl"), and outright insults and flames ("leeches," "sociopath"), then that's how it's going to come across -- as an emotional, angry, kneejerk reaction.
> ...


Yes, it is full of sarcasm and rudeness because in most cases like this, the person will go through full lengths of self-justification before doing this anyway. Look at my history here - I welcome you to. I don't respond in knee jerk reactions except when a poster is thinking with his other head and trying to pass it off as logic. Some are trying to suggest that this is about the pros and cons of threesomes, but it is not. 

From your tone of linking this to a nurturing type of love, it seems pretty obvious that you really believe that she is not in any sort of vulnerable position. If you really cared for her in a real way, you would help her get into a place of complete independence, and then ask her the same question. Simple as that. When we are in a position that may be perceived later as unwelcome, most will naturally default to a safe place, and remove the negative connotations, instead of coming to a relationship forum. But if you skip that normal step, then the women on that forum almost unanimously tell you that it is a bad idea, then they will retreat to this safe place (removing the possiblility of unhealthy pressure). 

See, people who ultimately find contentment with sharing others usually go through a mental process to make sure that their actions are not hurting or taking advantage of another, who may be in a vulnerable position.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Neutral said:


> Anyone who feels the need to insult and attack the people they're talking to is someone who has already shown poor judgment and weak communication skills.


As a certified corporate 6 Sigma Black Belt who has led projects yeilding a net savings of $25 million in green dollars through cross cultural collaboration, and a former member of MENSA, I think I would argue that you are just more subtle in masking your own brand of condescension. Some of us don't bother masking it. In simple logic terms, which someone of your self-proclaimed caliber would have covered in 2nd year boolean algebra, the message offends you, so you consider it logical to ignore it? This must've been on the extra credit part of the course.


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## Neutral (Jun 29, 2011)

Halien said:


> Yes, it is full of sarcasm and rudeness because in most cases like this, the person will go through full lengths of self-justification before doing this anyway.


Okay, but I don't see how that justifies the need to be sarcastic and rude -- I can see why you'd want to be especially _direct,_ but that's a completely different thing. And at any rate, I assure you, I'm not here to justify anything -- to myself or to you all. I wouldn't come on here to waste time with that; I wanted actual advice.



> From your tone of linking this to a nurturing type of love, it seems pretty obvious that you really believe that she is not in any sort of vulnerable position. If you really cared for her in a real way, you would help her get into a place of complete independence, and then ask her the same question.


So, you're saying that the fact that she's living in our home is the real issue here? That it puts her in a vulnerable position, which makes it impossible for this to be a decision made without any strings attached? I want to make sure I'm understanding you right -- frankly, I hadn't really thought about it that way before this thread, and I'm interested in what you're saying.


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## Neutral (Jun 29, 2011)

Halien said:


> As a certified corporate 6 Sigma Black Belt who has led projects yeilding a net savings of $25 million in green dollars through cross cultural collaboration, and a former member of MENSA,


Dude, please don't start pulling out qualifications and awards as an attempt to justify _flaming someone on the Internet._ C'mon.

My post above wasn't an attack against you. It was simply an explanation of why I don't take posts with flames seriously. And yes, the shoe certainly fit your first post in this thread, but I'd like to think we've moved past that. I'm not asking for apologies, I'd just like to get back to discussing my situation in a polite and civil manner. You've made some intriguing points above and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts.


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## uhaul4mybaggage (Jul 20, 2010)

Some more random thoughts to consider: 

She may have an STD

And, if she was a childhood victim of sexual abuse, her ability to recognize that this is a boundary violation would be severely compromised. Though, one could argue that in this arrangement of power, with you controlling the roof over her head and her only being 19, perhaps this could become child sexual abuse in its own right. 

Step back and help her gain a sense of independence, responsibility, self respect. And keep your own self respect at the same time.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Neutral...why do you keep calling the 19 year old by name? Send Dawn over to my house. My husband and I wouldn't consider snuggling with her or talking to her about fulfilling all of our inappropriate sexual desires. We'd provide a safe home until she got the energy, experience and finances she needs to grow up successfully. The fact that she's dependent on you for a home tells you something about her maturity. The fact that you and your wife are considering having sex with her tells you something about yours.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Ah, the word 'friend'.... from your thread title and elsewhere. I will put this to you in layman's terms: you can't f-ck your 'friends.' Once you and your wife have sex with someone...that person is no longer a 'friend,' your marriage will never be monogamous again, and the dynamic of all of your relationships will change forever. 'Dawn' may seem mature but at the end of the day she's still 19. If you do this, you will open Pandora's box. And the thing about opening Pandora's box is that once you open it--you can never shut it again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## uhaul4mybaggage (Jul 20, 2010)

Ever seen the bumper sticker:
"Gas, grass, or a$$, no one rides for free."

Here's the thing: what is it REALLY costing her to stay in your guest room?


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

Enough already.....


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