# Asian women, Asia, etc.



## shy_guy

I think at some point we're going to have to discuss this. Can we discuss it here?

Folks, I've made it no secret that my wife is Korean. Even though I was 20 the first time I arrived in Korea, I have now lived a double digit percentage of my life there. I speak Korea as my second langauge and speak it probably more than half the time when I'm home. My wife speaks to me in Korean probably 75% of the time when I'm home and most of our sentences to each other have some element of Korean in it. We're currently living in China, and I made a return to TAM because I just wanted a little more interaction in English - my days don't include much English right now.

That sets it from my side, now why do I want to talk about this? ... 

In the threads I've seen where someone brings up the subject of Asian women, there seems to be a reaction from a number of men who want to ascribe everything from personality to aging characteristics to Asian women. When I've jumped in on these discussions, I've spent most of my time swatting at these guys.

From the women's side, there seems to be the same amount of stereotyping, and most of it is negative. Just like from the men's side, it seems that most of it is based in stereotypes and what the person has heard, but almost none of it seems to be based in any knowledge. Let me put it another way, if you were me, or my wife, reading the way the women on here post about Asian women, can you tell me you wouldn't be PISSED THE **** OFF????? (I think it goes without saying, you'd be equally PISSEED about some of the posts some of the men make.)

I think several people have come here with legitimate questions and have been run off because of the insults that have been dealt by both men and women in this area. I'll be clear, I don't like people ascribing personality traits based on race or stereotypes. However; I have no problem with genuine questions even if they're not politically correct or not perfectly worded to not raise someone's hackles, nor do I have a problem with people expressing a preference in things (we all have preferences). 

So let's set the emotion aside a bit. Let's put all this behind us, and let's have a mature discussion. Can we do that? I said I like questions, and I mean it. If you have real, legitimate questions (Not rhetoric, and not attempts to ridicule into submission with skillful, lawyerly questions, please), then let's ask them. If it is on one of the Asian cultures I actually know about, then I'll give as good of an answer as I can, and I'll stay engaged to be sure it's clarified if you need to ask a clarifying question. I won't be mad here - I'm inviting it. When I came here before, there were several other ladies, and probably men, too, from other Asian cultures. If they haven't been run off in the BS I've been reading on threads in the forums here, I invite them to join in as well and give their explanations.

I'd like to bring a little clarity so that when the word "Asian" or any country from Asia gets used in a thread, it stops sounding like something you'd expect to read on a porn site, or in a 1920's Black and White movie. It'd be super great if we can actually move to a point where people stop the political statements to actually answer legitimate questions that someone may have, even when it has the word "Asian" in it.

Can we have this discussion in this spirit?

(NTamph, please, if you want to post on this thread, please elevate it from what you've been posting elsewhere. If you post like i've read elsewhere, you won't add anything constructive here.)


----------



## Holland

Honestly I don't see why you are getting so worked up. Try being a woman and enduring the stereotyping here that most women with hold sex, don't like sex, are LD yadda yadda. 

People stereotype for all sorts of reasons and you aren't going to change a narrow minded persons POV.


----------



## Deejo

I thought men just liked to say dumb stuff and women just plain like to disagree and argue.

Is that stereotyping?


----------



## shy_guy

Holland said:


> Honestly I don't see why you are getting so worked up. Try being a woman and enduring the stereotyping here that most women with hold sex, don't like sex, are LD yadda yadda.
> 
> People stereotype for all sorts of reasons and you aren't going to change a narrow minded persons POV.


Do you like the stereotyping of women? I'd say our reasons are very similar, just from a different perspective.

There is also stereotyping of men. Men have their defenses set against that, and women have their defenses set against stereotyping of women. Those get addressed all the time on here, but I don't see this one being addressed at all. Do you mind if I go ahead and try to address the stereotyping?


----------



## Holland

Knock yourself out. Just saying that there are some things that aren't worth the energy. Fighting stereotypes on forums full of randoms is one of them. Mini essays on the subject might be cathartic but you really aren't going to change anyone's mind.


----------



## Deejo

I think the problem once again, is our old friend 'bias'.

I really don't think so much that the disagreement is with individuals, Asian or otherwise, as it is one poster simply doesn't agree with, or just wants to push the buttons of others.

Dated an Asian woman briefly. Stunningly beautiful at 44, very independent, very smart, very sharp. She no doubt would have been a disappointment to any man counting on a demure, submissive stereotype.


----------



## shy_guy

Holland said:


> Knock yourself out. Just saying that there are some things that aren't worth the energy. Fighting stereotypes on forums full of randoms is one of them. Mini essays on the subject might be cathartic but you really aren't going to change anyone's mind.


Feel free to pass on by, then, and leave it to those of us who are willing to spend the energy on it. You'll have to be the one who decides how much of your energy is spent on it and when it is time to move on, and I'll have to be the one who decides how much of my energy will be spent here, and when it is time to move on elsewhere.


----------



## Deejo

Let's not forget all of the poor alpha males who cry themselves to sleep for all of the slings and arrows they suffer on these forums.

Oh wait, crying is beta ...


----------



## betulanana

I have got a question, hope it is not inappropriate.

Actually it has nothing to do with love.

I have known quite a few Koreans and all of them have been very smart and studious and top of their class. Am I right to assume that getting an education plays a far greater role in thier society than it does in western societies?

So what would a Korean parent do if he realises that his kid lacks the smarts to be top of the class... or what would a Korean person do if he or she does not do well in school?


----------



## mablenc

Shyguy, this is a great idea, it seems like many men here think that an Asian wife is the prefect wife. They the are all submissive and they key to happiness. If that goes wrong they blame the western culture for changing them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## mablenc

Holland said:


> Knock yourself out. Just saying that there are some things that aren't worth the energy. Fighting stereotypes on forums full of randoms is one of them. Mini essays on the subject might be cathartic but you really aren't going to change anyone's mind.


Why not? Not everyone is closed minded, how to you think we have made progress in society?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## shy_guy

betulanana said:


> I have got a question, hope it is not inappropriate.
> 
> Actually it has nothing to do with love.
> 
> I have known quite a few Koreans and all of them have been very smart and studious and top of their class. Am I right to assume that getting an education plays a far greater role in thier society than it does in western societies?
> 
> So what would a Korean parent do if he realises that his kid lacks the smarts to be top of the class... or what would a Korean person do if he or she does not do well in school?


 
Those are actually REALLY good questions. There are several parts to it.

First, if you're living outside of Korea, then the ones you know are probably from families who were well enough off to move to the US, or they have made huge sacrifices to move to the US. They have dreams (like we all do) and in the Korean culture, most people see a good education as a way of bettering themselves. Parents often make huge sacrifices to put their kids into schools with well known names. 

In Korea, not everybody can go to college, and it is very competitive to get into any college, and exponentially more competitive to get into the "top" colleges. Unlike in the US, where you go to college has a big effect on what job you may get after you graduate.

The combination of these things puts a lot of pressure on younger Korean kids. This is a topic that is often debated pretty hotly in Korea as Korea and Japan, as I understand, have two of the higher suicide rates among teens. The pressure to excel is sometimes cited by some as a reason for the higher suicide rate.

Among the youth I worked with in the US, there were the exceptional students, the overachievers, and the ones who did not achieve. There were even some who were autistic. The parents of the youth I worked with always pushed their kids to excel, but I never knew of a case of rejection because the kid didn't excel. I think when the kid graduated HS, they knew they had achieved at about as high a level as they could, but they are still their parents' kids, and their parents still love them.

We actually had problems with a nephew, and his parents sent him to live with us in the US for a while thinking that would help him get his head straight and focus on completing his college. Long story short: it didn't. He went back to Korea after a couple of years. He's since settled down, and actually works a good job in Suwon.

Summing it up, there is a huge emphasis on education in the culture. Parents sacrifice a great deal hoping their kids have a better future than they did. For many, it works out. They still have their rebels, and they have quite a few who will never make it to college, but will always be part of their families.


----------



## Caribbean Man

I only have positive stereotypes of Asian women.

But I'm biased because I married one!


----------



## mablenc

Caribbean Man said:


> I only have positive stereotypes of Asian women.
> 
> But I'm biased because I married one!


And she is beautiful!


----------



## greenpearl

Every culture has its problems. 

Western men come to Taiwan and marry Taiwanese women, but their divorce rate is the highest among all the races. Something is not right here. 

I won't defend Asian culture. If someone is asking opinion about Chinese culture, I can tell you a lot of bad things. The whole country is ****ed up now. 

But there is one problem about people, they get defensive right away when someone says something unpleasant about them, sometimes it's just an objective observation. When you get defensive and offensive, there is no need to continue the discussion.


----------



## mablenc

I will also add that when people leave a culture that has a lot of repression, they cannot help to change for the better and find their identity and their voice. If the spouse liked that repression, well he or she is not going to be happy with the changes. But it's not that the person changed, is that they found themselves.


----------



## Caribbean Man

greenpearl said:


> Every culture has its problems.
> 
> Western men come to Taiwan and marry Taiwanese women, but their divorce rate is the highest among all the races. Something is not right here.
> 
> I won't defend Asian culture. If someone is asking opinion about Chinese culture, I can tell you a lot of bad things. The whole country is ****ed up now.
> 
> But there is one problem about people, they get defensive right away when someone says something unpleasant about them, sometimes it's just an objective observation. When you get defensive and offensive, there is no need to continue the discussion.


_" We All Know That People Are The Same Where Ever We Go 
There Is Good And Bad In Ev'ryone, 
We Learn To Live, We Learn To Give 
Each Other What We Need To Survive Together Alive.."
_
Ebony & Ivory, Paul Mc.Cartney




There are hardly any " pure cultures " around, en masse anymore.
The internet and electronic media has infiltrated some of the most remote cultures, even in the jungles of the Amazon.
People are integrated globally in a way that we could have only dreamed of 20 years ago.

Highlighting the negatives of any particular culture makes absolutely no sense to me, because a lot of times what we may consider as a 
* negative * in a different culture ,may actually be our own cultural bias preventing us from understanding.
People tend to fear things they don't understand.
It takes a certain level of open mindedness and maturity to understand.


----------



## Cosmos

Belonging to groups, social or cultural, help define who we are and 
they are what give people a sense of identity, acceptance, support, cooperation, status and self esteem. At the same time, it can also lead to competitiveness, stereotyping, discrimination and prejudice. Like it or not, this is human nature...

When cultures merge (particularly people from collectivist cultures, such as Asia, and people from more individualistic cultures, such as the West), there are bound to be differences... However, when we add competition to the mix (eg - "men/women from X culture make better husbands/wives than those from Y culture), those comparisons are bound to lead to ill-feeling within the group who feel that they are being compared...


----------



## shy_guy

Caribbean Man said:


> _" We All Know That People Are The Same Where Ever We Go _
> _There Is Good And Bad In Ev'ryone, _
> _We Learn To Live, We Learn To Give _
> _Each Other What We Need To Survive Together Alive.."_
> 
> Ebony & Ivory, Paul Mc.Cartney
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are hardly any " pure cultures " around, en masse anymore.
> The internet and electronic media has infiltrated some of the most remote cultures, even in the jungles of the Amazon.
> People are integrated globally in a way that we could have only dreamed of 20 years ago.
> 
> Highlighting the negatives of any particular culture makes absolutely no sense to me, because a lot of times what we may consider as a
> * negative * in a different culture ,may actually be our own cultural bias preventing us from understanding.
> People tend to fear things they don't understand.
> It takes a certain level of open mindedness and maturity to understand.


That is an excellent summary.

And GreenPearl, I'm very glad to see you here, posting. 

My wife and I are on our 18th address in the 28 years we've been married. There is good and bad to that many moves, BTW, and I've posted about both good and bad, before. One of the observations I have is that every culture (and subculture) that I've been a part of has its beauty and it's warts. My nature is to focus on the beauty I see. I see the warts, too, but it's just my nature to focus on the beauty. That doesn't mean that I don't try to effect positive impact. I've tried to remember my obligation to do that in working with one particular orphanage, working with Youth in the US, and participating with a group that works to end human trafficking. That's not to brag - it's just to remind me of an obligation that I think I have.


----------



## Cosmos

Caribbean Man said:


> _
> Highlighting the negatives of any particular culture makes absolutely no sense to me, because a lot of times what we may consider as a
> * negative * in a different culture ,may actually be our own cultural bias preventing us from understanding.
> People tend to fear things they don't understand.
> It takes a certain level of open mindedness and maturity to understand._


_

:iagree:_


----------



## shy_guy

Cosmos said:


> Belonging to groups, social or cultural, help define who we are and
> they are what give people a sense of identity, acceptance, support, cooperation, status and self esteem. At the same time, it can also lead to competitiveness, stereotyping, discrimination and prejudice. Like it or not, this is human nature...
> 
> When cultures merge (particularly people from collectivist cultures, such as Asia, and people people from more individualistic cultures, such as the West), there are bound to be differences... However, when we add competition to the mix (eg - "men/women from X culture make better husbands/wives than those from Y culture), those comparisons are bound to lead to ill-feeling within the group who feel that they are being compared...


It sounds like you're summarizing a hypothesis I heard some time ago that our grouping is a survival instict. We don't always have time to evaluate, so our nature is to group and categorize as this tends to help us identify a perceived threat more quickly. I won't necessarily disagree about that being our nature, but here is where I think, in these days, we have to move a bit beyond that nature, if indeed that is our nature. 

I think questions are a good thing when someone is genuinely curious, and sometimes I don't understand the reaction against a genuine question. If someone wants to ask if "Asian women" are really X, Y, and Z, the first thing I think is that the person probably hasn't had enough contact with "Asian women" to begin to see individual differences, and then I want to find more about that. I don't think it's time to jump the person's attitudes at that point. Someone who approaches and says "Asian women" really are X, Y, and Z is showing me a little different attitude, and honestly, that DOES get me a bit riled whether X, Y, and Z are positive or not.

I think one thing I see (because I've experienced it) is people in different stages of culture shock/adjustment. When I see someone who has contact with a culture outside his/her own, and he/she is talking about culture A being X, Y and Z (whether positive or negative), the first thing I start thinking about is that person adjusting in some way to that culture. From my own experience, I've categorized those stages as honeymoon, disillusionment, frustration, and for those who can adjust, there is a gradual adjustment. I experienced this my first time in Korea, and then again when I moved back to the US from Korea that first time. I haven't had it since, but part of that is that I've lost my anchor and no longer really see one place as my home - I look at myself as a family person and when my wife is with me, I'm happy. Now, on my moves, I tend to go from honeymoon directly into a much more rapid gradual adjustment phase than I used to experience. I no longer have that disillusionment and frustration. I expect to see warts with the beauty in every culture, so it doesn't surprise me when I see it. I say all of this because often, when I read someone's questions about a culture that they are in contact with, or where they've met someone from that culture, I quickly start trying to see if they're in one of the phases of culture shock or adjustment. I think that's where some of the questions come from on here, and I try to adress them from that perspective.


----------



## thatbpguy

Holland said:


> Honestly I don't see why you are getting so worked up. Try being a woman and enduring the stereotyping here that most women with hold sex, don't like sex, are LD yadda yadda.
> 
> People stereotype for all sorts of reasons and you aren't going to change a narrow minded persons POV.


When it comes to Asian women, I _like_ being narrow minded.  It's part of the mystique and fantasy we narrow minded guys get to enjoy most of the day (ie, when not sleeping).


----------



## committed4ever

Caribbean Man said:


> I only have positive stereotypes of Asian women.
> 
> But I'm biased because I married one!


You're quite a handsome couple.


----------



## MambaZee

My mom is Korean so I'm very familiar with the culture. She has a ton of sisters, but only one seemed to marry a guy who expected a "demure Asian flower" or some such nonsense. None of my aunts are like that, nor is my mom (thank goodness). They're all very outspoken and independent. I feel like if someone is only attracted to a stereotype, then they get whatever they deserve.


----------



## shy_guy

MambaZee, I'm glad to see you in this thread, too.

It looks like it is in capable hands (of course it is  ). As I said, I'm living in China right now, so it's my bedtime. Thanks for jumping in. Please continue. I'll catch up on it tomorrow


----------



## ocotillo

Most of the stereotypes I've run across (In my admittedly limited experience here) are positive. 

If it's not too offensive a question, what are the negative ones?


----------



## norajane

ocotillo said:


> Most of the stereotypes I've run across (In my admittedly limited experience here) are positive.
> 
> If it's not too offensive a question, what are the negative ones?


I lived in San Francisco for a long time, and all I can say about Asian women, is that little old Chinese ladies are the fiercest competitors for a spot on the MUNI. They will mow anyone down to get on that train, lol. Nothing submissive about them! :rofl:


----------



## Coffee Amore

MambaZee said:


> My mom is Korean so I'm very familiar with the culture. She has a ton of sisters, but only one seemed to marry a guy who expected a "demure Asian flower" or some such nonsense. None of my aunts are like that, nor is my mom (thank goodness). They're all very outspoken and independent. I feel like if someone is only attracted to a stereotype, then they get whatever they deserve.


I'm going to out myself. I'm Asian American. I have to laugh at some of the stereotypes I've read on TAM about Asian women. I've lived in Asia and in San Francisco which has a large Asian American population.. The Asian women I know aren't the submissive type at all. They may appear quiet and soft spoken if you don't know them, but in private they are outspoken, opinionated and independent. I'm sure my husband would agree I'm not submissive to him. 

As others have pointed out, Asia is a very large area of the world. It's not a monolith. Koreans are different from Filipinos as much as Nepalese are different from Taiwanese. You just can't lump Asians into one group and attribute all sorts of qualities to them.


----------



## Catherine602

Its not east Vs west. Its the relentless hatred that men in certain segments of our society heap upon women. I am frankly weary of hearing it.

It has now become a sport among some men to blame women for all of their ills. They are unhappy because Western women want too much and give them nothing in return. 

Why are the men who say they have found happiness with a mate in other cultures find it necessary to continue to knock down women in their own culture? They have mothers and other female relatives that loved them. 

Why dishonor themselves by keeping up the negative barrage? If they are so happy, why do they need to snipe at the woman they left behind? 

I made the choice to be with a man of another race. It was a positive selection. I have never run down the men of my own race. These men are part of my heritage, my identity, 1/2 of my children's identity. They are my father, uncles, grands, cousins, and brothers. They are me. 

When I see problems in my own people, invariably, it is a problem that I failed to see in myself. I use my pointed finger to look at me, painful as it may be. 

However, it has become a sport among Western men to blame the women in their society for the collapse of values, and all of the ills that have befallen us. 

I don't hear men of other cultures running down their woman like men in the English speaking world. To me, it makes them seem weak, impotent and small minded. 

I am most familiar with Italian culture outside of my own. My husband and I spent many summers in Italy. I love Mediterranean cultures. 

The men are strong, loyal, independent minded and effective. they love their families, their culture, they love their mothers, wives, sisters and aunts too. 

They value the things that make life worth living , food wine cheese and people. 

You would never here a sane Italian man talking about the Italian women the way men in English speaking societies do about their women. 

Family and country, that's foundational - you don't chip at your own foundation. How will your children acquire a positive sense of themselves as a cultural/ racial blend? 

They will have extra challenges to adjustment, they don't need extra stress of the loose lips of an insensitive, angry parent. 

They need both parents to anchor them and teach them to enjoy their unique blend. Hopefully, their parents love for each other brought them together not hatred of men or women of either culture/race. 

Besides, they have relatives who are women, your mother - their grandmothers, your sisters - their aunts.


----------



## Catherine602

I may have mentioned this in another thread. From my first reading of "The Pearl" one summer when I was a kid, I fell in love with China. I could not do enough reading about that vast country. 

The fact the the written history reaches back thousands of years is astonishing. I talk a good talk about my country which I love. 

However, speaking as a citizen of the world, China is one of the greatest civilizations on the planet. It is going through growing pains right now but the dragon will roar. 

We have not visited yet. When my kids are older and can appreciate the visits we will visit many times. 

It hurts all the more that a part of the would that I love so much is presented as a bastion of everything that laking in me as a woman.


----------



## Starstarfish

My best friend in college was the child of a (former) American serviceman and a Japanese woman. She was an awesome friend, and I can honestly say - I'm sad we drifted apart after college ended. She was an amazing friend - witty and loyal, independent, and smart. 

I didn't interact with her parents much, but - I can say theirs was apparently a steadfast marriage that led to the production of a very centered young woman who gleaned from both of their cultures. 

The only "stereotypical" behavior I noticed was indeed, the high expectation of academic success placed on her, which - I think caused her a rather high amount of stress. She was in the Pre-Med program, but - it wasn't where her heart was set - she wanted to pursue Art or Writing, or something more along those lines. Ultimately, she dropped out, as she couldn't figure out the middle ground between her desires and the expectations, and I think that was kind of a shame. 

But - my husband has a similiar issue with deep-seated feelings about disappointing his parents and he's Pomeranian-German, so - I think that's a widespread problem which can be cultural, religious, or just innate to a particular family regardless of any other factors.


----------



## Catherine602

I think the strive to excel is partially cultural but also the make up of the immigrant mentality. My husband and I are children of immigrants. School was priority number one. It was pounded into our heads that the opportunities in the US far outstrip anything that was available in our countries. 

And many people sacrificed to get us to this place. So we had to knuckle down. My household was not child-centered at all. But every evening after school and on sat evening, the house was quiet so we could do our homework and read. My mother was distant but she drilled us on math and reading.


----------



## norajane

Catherine602 said:


> I think the strive to excel is partially cultural but also the make up of the immigrant mentality. My husband and I are children of immigrants. School was priority number one. It was pounded into our heads that the opportunities in the US far outstrip anything that was available in our countries.
> 
> And many people sacrificed to get us to this place. So we had to knuckle down. My household was not child-centered at all. But every evening after school and on sat evening, the house was quiet so we could do our homework and read. My mother was distant but she drilled us on math and reading.


As an immigrant child, this was my experience as well. Huge focus on education so I could live a "better" life than my parents, and lots of sacrifices on their part. Better, meaning no grueling or difficult factory work, and less fear of what might happen.

I'm Eastern European, so that immigrant focus on education is not limited to Asians as is the stereotype.


----------



## norajane

shy_guy said:


> I think questions are a good thing when someone is genuinely curious, and sometimes I don't understand the reaction against a genuine question. If someone wants to ask if "Asian women" are really X, Y, and Z, the first thing I think is that the person probably hasn't had enough contact with "Asian women" to begin to see individual differences, and then I want to find more about that. I don't think it's time to jump the person's attitudes at that point. Someone who approaches and says "Asian women" really are X, Y, and Z is showing me a little different attitude, and honestly, that DOES get me a bit riled whether X, Y, and Z are positive or not.


The thing is, there aren't a lot of genuinely curious posters asking genuine questions about Asian women as wives. Most of the "Asian wives" threads and posts are there to rile people up and to bash Western women as though Western women are the root of all evil. Like the thread you (and a lot of people) took a lot of care and time in replying to yesterday - that guy was clearly trolling to rile people up and entertain himself. 

So we respond to the crap spewed about Western and Asian women with a jaundiced eye. If the questions were genuine, we'd have a different response.


----------



## LoveAtDaisys

I was stationed in Japan for a few years. Enjoyed my time there being one of the tallest women around 

I did notice that there seemed to be a greatly heightened importance placed on a woman's physical appearance, though. It wasn't uncommon for me to say "the men here are better dressed than me!" when out. High heels, hair extensions, makeup done impeccably...even the "grungy" girls were very obviously well-groomed. I never saw a woman in workout gear or pajamas out and about, that's for sure!

Is this just an anecdotal observation, or would you say that it's a cultural difference across the board?


----------



## Enginerd

To the OP:

I have been told by Australians, Thai's, Chinese and Mexican's that American men spoil their women. Apparently women around the world think we make good husbands because we've been taught to treat women equally. So my questions are as follows:

Do Korean men treat their women as equals?

Are you accepted by Korean men as their equal?

Do middle aged married Korean men often have girlfriends if they can afford them?

Thanks


----------



## always_alone

LoveAtDaisys said:


> I was stationed in Japan for a few years. Enjoyed my time there being one of the tallest women around
> 
> I did notice that there seemed to be a greatly heightened importance placed on a woman's physical appearance, though. It wasn't uncommon for me to say "the men here are better dressed than me!" when out. High heels, hair extensions, makeup done impeccably...even the "grungy" girls were very obviously well-groomed. I never saw a woman in workout gear or pajamas out and about, that's for sure!
> 
> Is this just an anecdotal observation, or would you say that it's a cultural difference across the board?


Cleanliness and grooming are hugely important in Japan. For both men and women.

A major downside to being the tallest woman around, I found, was that it was almost impossible to find any clothes that fit. Bras were especially hard. I had to import.


----------



## always_alone

FrenchFry said:


> Which is why even "positive" stereotypes suck: they put you in a group and take away your humanity.
> 
> So, I like that this thread is bringing back humanity.



When I lived in Japan, one thing that I found very intriguing is that everyone would describe themselves as "typical Japanese". There was some truth to this self-styled stereotype, yet at the same time, there were an awful lot of eccentrics, oddballs, and idiosyncratic characters. In many ways, they seemed much more accepting of individual diversity than we pretend to be in the West.


----------



## shy_guy

Catherine, thank you for your comment. I think this morning, I only have time to respond to one, so I'll make it this one.



Catherine602 said:


> Its not east Vs west. Its the relentless hatred that men in certain segments of our society heap upon women. I am frankly weary of hearing it.


I think you are I are expressing a similar feeling from a different viewpoint. Each of us is going to be sensitive to areas that involve us personally. Sometimes, I think we tend to take things in a spirit that was not intended, and see things as attacks that were not intended as attacks. I am sometimes guilty of this as well. Your perceptions are going to be tuned to see men attacking women. I have a tendency to see women attacking men and doing many of the things you say here. Since I'm not as sensitized to things as being attacks against women, I probably don't perceive some of the attacks in that direction that you do. I think it probably goes the other direction, too. I see many negatives that women put forward about men, but usually, I'm trying to understand a problem when I'm on here, and I'm not taking a political viewpoint. However; on this issue i started this thread on, I am very sensitive. I think we can agree that our viewpoint makes us more sensitive or defensive in certain positions we inherently hold.




Catherine602 said:


> It has now become a sport among some men to blame women for all of their ills. They are unhappy because Western women want too much and give them nothing in return.
> 
> Why are the men who say they have found happiness with a mate in other cultures find it necessary to continue to knock down women in their own culture? They have mothers and other female relatives that loved them.


I agree, and they're good points. They did have women in that culture who loved them (or still love them). My viewpoint from inside the skin of a man is that men generally love women. We have all had women in our lives who mean a lot to us. We all have a mother, and in most cases, we have very high opinions of our mothers. 

This is where my post about the stages of culture adjusment start to come in. When someone is in contact with another culture on a daily basis, I really think they go through the honeymoon stage, the disillusionment, the frustration, and if they stay with it, they get to adjustment. When someone is in the honeymoon stage, if they're like I was in the times I hit it, there is a natural tendency to compare the positive, new, and exciting things they see in the new culture with the things they didn't like about the culture they are coming from. I think it takes someone very skillful in their verbal expression to be able to express those comparisons in a way that doesn't upset some. When they hit disillusionment, that begins to change as they begin to focus on the things they see that aren't what they originally appeared to be. By the time they hit frustration, the focus has turned almost entirely negative since the person realizes just how powerless he/she is to change the culture, or to carve out a piece in that culture that is comfortable in the context of what he/she has known.

When I moved from Korea to the US after my first time of living in Korea, I went through all of those stages again in adjustment back to the culture in the US. 

On here, when I read someone asking questions, or someone with contact with another culture, my thought is that it isn't about making a political statement or a social change at that point, and that person isn't someone who suddenly appeared out of thin air to express what he/she is expression or asking. There is a context there, and when the person is in contact with another culture constantly, they are likely in one of those stages of adjustment. If we catch them here in frustration, they are likely needing to vent that and don't have a good forum to vent it. If they're in honeymoon, they're likely not able to fully express the comparisons they are trying to make without it being taken as negative.

It's much like when someone comes on with a marriage problem right after they've had a fight with their spouse. They're likely having feelings that when expressed honestly, are not politically correct in anybody's book. They likely don't even think that after they've had a chance to cool down and think it over, but if it is an ongoing fight, then they're likely in a level of frustration they can't get past, and need to vent it somewhere. this being something of a group therapy site, I think some of that has to be expected, so sometimes, we have to be skilled enough to coax that out of them so they can think a little more clearly ... however; I've found that to be impossible on this board in the times I've tried just because those kinds of expressions are upsetting enough to too many that it can't get past that to rational thinking.



Catherine602 said:


> Why dishonor themselves by keeping up the negative barrage? If they are so happy, why do they need to snipe at the woman they left behind?
> 
> I made the choice to be with a man of another race. It was a positive selection. I have never run down the men of my own race. These men are part of my heritage, my identity, 1/2 of my children's identity. They are my father, uncles, grands, cousins, and brothers. They are me.
> 
> When I see problems in my own people, invariably, it is a problem that I failed to see in myself. I use my pointed finger to look at me, painful as it may be.


I think we all have preferences if we're honest enough to admit that. You are honest enough, and your thinking about your family sounds very much like my philosophy about my family - they are me. 



Catherine602 said:


> However, it has become a sport among Western men to blame the women in their society for the collapse of values, and all of the ills that have befallen us.


Here's one of those things where you've approached what irritates you in the other direction, and I don't think you realize it. I'm a western man, and I do no such thing. 

However; in the spirit of what I wrote above, I recognize the frustration you have, and that you are sensitized to this. I understand where this is coming from in you, and I know you didn't just pop out of thin air to express this perception. I won't take that point any further.



Catherine602 said:


> I don't hear men of other cultures running down their woman like men in the English speaking world. To me, it makes them seem weak, impotent and small minded.


It happens. Women in other cultures complain about their husbands, and men in other cultures complain about their wives, and my experience with these things are that the essence of the complaints are very much the same. It's interesting that you bring this up because I had a conversation with a colleague a few years ago (he's from Pakistan) where he was talking about his wife's complaints about him, and he expressed to me that he had friends who were Indian, Pakistani, Arab, and American, and regardless of where they came from, women had the same complaints about men, and men had the same complaints about women. It was his observation, but it made me start listening a little more. In the cultures I'm aware of, I find that to be true.



Catherine602 said:


> I am most familiar with Italian culture outside of my own. My husband and I spent many summers in Italy. I love the Mediterranean culture.
> 
> The men are strong, loyal, independent minded and effective. they love their families, their culture, they love their mothers, wives, sisters and aunts too. They value the things that make life worth living, food wine cheese and people.
> 
> You would never here a sane Italian man talking about the Italian women the way men in English speaking societies do about their women.


I would challenge that. I think there is a great deal pride in most Italians as there is in most Americans, and most people of any culture. Culture is going to affect how much they may express it publicly, but if there was an equivalent site to this in Italian, I'm sure you'd find the ones either with problems, or with contact with other cultures who were going through some sort of cultural adjustment to express very similar things. With this site, the fallacy of collectivism really comes apart, and it becomes obvious that you can't apply one perception of a whole to individuals, nor can you extrapolate what you see in an individual to a whole people group or culture. 



Catherine602 said:


> Family and country, that the foundation - you don't chip at your own foundation. Where will you have to put you kids and grand kids??


 
In this context, I agree. I'll take it further and say with adopted children, you have to be careful to not be critical of birthparents for similar reasons. I'm not as loyal to country anymore as I used to be which isn't saying I think the US is evil, but I'm not sure I can explain what I mean here in just a few minutes. In this one, you'll just have to take my word for it that I didn't just pop out of thin air to express that little nugget - there is a context behind it and if you knew that, you might share my opinion. Whether you did or not, you'd at least understand where I'm coming from.

But my first responsibility is to my family. My family spans countries. I LOVE my family, and there is no question about that in my mind, ever. Sometimes, I get aggravated with them, but there is no question I love them, and after the aggravation is over, I know I'll still miss them, love them, and want to hug and hold them just as much as I ever did, and I know I'll still do anything for them even if I'm aggravated. 










And for the record, Catherine, I didn't see anything in your post here for anyone to be upset about. I think your perception and my perception of discussions and things said are very often very different, and hopefully we can discuss that peacefully.


----------



## greenpearl

Catherine602 said:


> I may have mentioned this in another thread. From my first reading of "The Pearl" one summer when I was a kid, I fell in love with China. I could not do enough reading about that vast country.
> 
> The fact the the written history reaches back thousands of years is astonishing. I talk a good talk about my country which I love.
> 
> However, speaking as a citizen of the world, China is one of the greatest civilizations on the planet. It is going through growing pain right now but the dragon will roar.
> 
> We have not visited yet. When my kids are older and can appreciate the visits we will visit many times.
> 
> It hurts all the more that a part of the would that I love so much is presented as a bastion of everything that laking in me as a woman.


If you go to China now, you will be disappointed. China has changed, the culture has changed, people there have changed. 
Now I go back to visit China, I feel sad. Yes, it has become a somewhat rich country financially, but the rich has brought down all the other good morals Chinese used to have. 

Now people there are greedy. All they can think is money. They do all kinds of immoral things just so they can make more money quickly. People there have no trust. There are con artists everywhere and there are all kinds of schemes, people don't dare to be good people anymore, because their kindness would be taken advantage of. It's a super crowded place, the beauty of the nature has been destroyed by the heads of the people. You see more black than green. 

A lot of traditional values are disappearing. I am Chinese. I used to be proud of being Chinese. Now it makes me sad.


----------



## greenpearl

Catherine602 said:


> Its not east Vs west. Its the relentless hatred that men in certain segments of our society heap upon women. I am frankly weary of hearing it.
> 
> It has now become a sport among some men to blame women for all of their ills. They are unhappy because Western women want too much and give them nothing in return.
> 
> Why are the men who say they have found happiness with a mate in other cultures find it necessary to continue to knock down women in their own culture? They have mothers and other female relatives that loved them.
> 
> Why dishonor themselves by keeping up the negative barrage? If they are so happy, why do they need to snipe at the woman they left behind?
> 
> I made the choice to be with a man of another race. It was a positive selection. I have never run down the men of my own race. These men are part of my heritage, my identity, 1/2 of my children's identity. They are my father, uncles, grands, cousins, and brothers. They are me.
> 
> When I see problems in my own people, invariably, it is a problem that I failed to see in myself. I use my pointed finger to look at me, painful as it may be.
> 
> However, it has become a sport among Western men to blame the women in their society for the collapse of values, and all of the ills that have befallen us.
> 
> I don't hear men of other cultures running down their woman like men in the English speaking world. To me, it makes them seem weak, impotent and small minded.
> 
> I am most familiar with Italian culture outside of my own. My husband and I spent many summers in Italy. I love the Mediterranean culture.
> 
> The men are strong, loyal, independent minded and effective. they love their families, their culture, they love their mothers, wives, sisters and aunts too. They value the things that make life worth living, food wine cheese and people.
> 
> You would never here a sane Italian man talking about the Italian women the way men in English speaking societies do about their women.
> 
> Family and country, that the foundation - you don't chip at your own foundation. Where will you have to put you kids and grand kids??


Catherine, if a man complains about eastern women, I won't take it personally. I try to understand why. People usually complain about things they know about. If you go to a Chinese forum, you will see a lot of Chinese men complain about Chinese women. 

People are influenced by culture, they are also influenced by their family upbringing, and the religion they have (if they have one). 

We are all individuals. Some people might complain about this, other people might love this. Well, western men are flocking to eastern countries to look for their happiness, eastern people are still flocking to the west to look for their happiness. Opposite attracts. 

Right now I am at a place I am content with, I am not thinking about moving. The reason I don't want to move to Canada is not about the people or culture, it's the cold weather I can't take.


----------



## greenpearl

Coffee Amore said:


> I'm going to out myself. I'm Asian American. I have to laugh at some of the stereotypes I've read on TAM about Asian women. I've lived in Asia and in San Francisco which has a large Asian American population.. The Asian women I know aren't the submissive type at all. They may appear quiet and soft spoken if you don't know them, but in private they are outspoken, opinionated and independent. I'm sure my husband would agree I'm not submissive to him.
> 
> As others have pointed out, Asia is a very large area of the world. It's not a monolith. Koreans are different from Filipinos as much as Nepalese are different from Taiwanese. You just can't lump Asians into one group and attribute all sorts of qualities to them.


Chinese are submissive or not really depends. The school system teaches women to be independent thinkers. Men and women are equal. China has the most richest women in the world. OK, they also have the most people in the world. The ratio is big or not, I don't know. Chinese women are not easy to deal with. Chinese women have a lot of power at home. Their husbands listen to them and cater to them. Actually I think the men are submissive to their wives. 

But people are different. Some women can be submissive to their husbands, it depends on who they marry. You marry a man who is stronger, you take the submissive role; you marry a man who is weak, you take the leading role. 

For a healthy marriage, I think it's about respect. You have mutual respect for each other. You ask your spouse about his or her opinion because you respect him or her.


----------



## greenpearl

LoveAtDaisys said:


> I was stationed in Japan for a few years. Enjoyed my time there being one of the tallest women around
> 
> I did notice that there seemed to be a greatly heightened importance placed on a woman's physical appearance, though. It wasn't uncommon for me to say "the men here are better dressed than me!" when out. High heels, hair extensions, makeup done impeccably...even the "grungy" girls were very obviously well-groomed. I never saw a woman in workout gear or pajamas out and about, that's for sure!
> 
> Is this just an anecdotal observation, or would you say that it's a cultural difference across the board?


This has been influenced by the eastern culture. China, Korea, Japan, Hong kong, Taiwan, and Macao all have the same thing. Women here are very careful with their appearance. Because they know it's their beauty catches men's attention. They try very hard to stay slim and they look after their skin very well. You don't need to tell them to lose weight. When they see that they are getting a little bit overweight, they themselves will do something about it right away. Beauty salons here are everywhere. Women will go for facial treatment if they can afford it. Not just rich women, middle class women are regular customers. 

I am one of these women too. Try hard to be slim and try hard to take care of my skin.


----------



## RandomDude

You have to be proud to be who you are Greenpearl even if you have disagreements with your own people. I have disagreements with my own race as well, some things they do really shame me, made me want to disown them even. And for a time, I did... shamefully.

But in the end I learnt that they are still my people and I should never forget my heritage. I have to remember what good is left in our culture and keep it alive, and continue to challenge the evil and shame that has corrupted us.

Anyways...

@Shy Guy

People stereotype Australians as riding kangaroos and wrestling crocodiles when we are anything but that, but one man with his fame set the precedent for our stereotype. Amongst people of my traditional background everyone also believe we are barbarians who still live in tents and ride horses all day while storming castles.

That's just how it works. You can never rid the world of stereotypes or the ignorant. And sometimes the stereotypes do come from some truth, Steve Irwin was a true blue Aussie, yet people shouldn't stereotype all Australians based on one Australia who happened to love our wildlife. Our people were indeed "barbarians" conquering people left and right 800 years ago, but it only takes one meeting with a normal Mongol family to learn we are anything but the "uncultured" "violent" "savages" history teaches about us.

Asian women have alot of stereotypes, some are just plain stupid even though everyone believed it at one time; like that their parts run sideways like their eyes. Others do come from truth; such as materialism, as there are alot of gold diggers in Asia seeking a green card / PR into western countries especially here in Australia. Russia has the same problem though some argue that its because the gender ratio is unbalanced.

There are also positive stereotypes though some may argue are stereotypes regardless; such as that Asian women are better long-term partners then Western women. That they are loyal, submissive, and dedicated to their families. Having known women of all races, and the patterns of Asian women I laugh at that stereotype, yet most people believe it, hell they believe it to the point they travel all the way to Asia to marry (not saying you did that btw).

In the end people are individuals, but our human minds tend to be unable to comprehend each 8 billion human beings as individuals so we try to simplify things, classify things, stereotype things. This is human nature. Like dogs chasing their own tail, or cats licking their own ass; enjoy the amusement of human nature!

The world would be very dull if everyone suddenly decided to be smart. Personally I'd rather the ignorance continue!



> As others have pointed out, Asia is a very large area of the world. It's not a monolith. Koreans are different from Filipinos as much as Nepalese are different from Taiwanese. You just can't lump Asians into one group and attribute all sorts of qualities to them.


Yes, reminds me of some folk here in Australia who told me "You're not Asian, you're Mongol", and "but you Mongols aren't Asian" because we don't apparently fit certain stereotypes of theirs, erm... OF COURSE WE ARE FKING ASIAN -.-

 Funny though


----------



## Catherine602

greenpearl said:


> If you go to China now, you will be disappointed. China has changed, the culture has changed, people there have changed.
> Now I go back to visit China, I feel sad. Yes, it has become a somewhat rich country financially, but the rich has brought down all the other good morals Chinese used to have.
> 
> Now people there are greedy. All they can think is money. They do all kinds of immoral things just so they can make more money quickly. People there have no trust. There are con artists everywhere and there are all kinds of schemes, people don't dare to be good people anymore, because their kindness would be taken advantage of. It's a super crowded place, the beauty of the nature has been destroyed by the heads of the people. You see more black than green.
> 
> A lot of traditional values are disappearing. I am Chinese. I used to be proud of being Chinese. Now it makes me sad.


Sadly, that is happening all over the world. We humans are an avaricious bunch of creatures. I have followed the changes in China from afar. I don't understand them though. 

Would you say that the changes, though disturbing, are superficial in nature? They don't really touch the deeper layer's of so ancient a culture. 

From what I know of Chinese history, the evil imported by the arrival of the first Westerners on it's shores, to the time the gates were closed, was absorbed, altered and made Chinese. 

Can you see that as a possibility with what is happening with what we see today? I think China is tasting the newness of this phase in it's history. 

However, once tasted, will be made uniquely Chinese by ingenuity to the benefit of it's people. Its the tasting stage now. You will see, I am sure of it. 

I think the same will happen with the USA but we cannot rely on the strength of an ancient culture to absorb the toxins. It will be pure ingenuity. You will see, I am sure of it.


----------



## greenpearl

Catherine602 said:


> Sadly, that is happening all over the world. We humans are an avaricious bunch of creatures. I have followed the changes in China from afar. I don't understand them though.
> 
> Would you say that the changes, though disturbing, are superficial in nature? They don't really touch the deeper layer's of so ancient a culture.
> 
> From what I know of Chinese history, the evil imported by the arrival of the first Westerners on it's shores, to the time the gates were closed, was absorbed, altered and made Chinese.
> 
> Can you see that as a possibility with what is happening with what we see today? I think China is tasting the newness of this phase in it's history.
> 
> However, once tasted, will be made uniquely Chinese by ingenuity to the benefit of it's people. Its the tasting stage now. You will see, I am sure of it.
> 
> I think the same will happen with the USA but we cannot rely on the strength of an ancient culture to absorb the toxins. It will be pure ingenuity. You will see, I am sure of it.


When we were young, we were mainly influenced by school education and family upbringing, but now people are also being influenced by the media. I don't know if the schools still teach the good morals like we had before, and media is doing a great job to undo it if they do. 

I wish that one day the society will realize it and correct its path. 

Money is the root of all sins. This sentence is really showing what China is having now. People can kill so they get rich. When people are rich, they become arrogant, they want to show off. Chinese people really have the need to show off, and they are very good at it. This family is having a wedding, they put money on the ground as a carpet. Another family made a gold path. By the way they are showing off their wealth, it also tells you how uncivilized they are. People are not happier even though they have more money because your neighbors or friends have more than you do. The gap between the rich and poor is huge. In a society like this, it is difficult to be content. You are successful or not depends on how many houses you have and what kind of cars you are driving. My husband and I are both away from our own countries, so it is a good thing that we don't have relatives and friends nearby to compare. We can choose the kind of lifestyle we are happy with. But if I go back to China, I might feel the need to catch up with their wealth. 

I value peace more than wealth. We live a simple life so we are not bothered by financial problems or desire. So I am really an individual, I don't represent our culture.


----------



## Catherine602

Thank you Shy Guy I am honored that you singled out my post to comment. 

I have been thinking about this subject. East and west - it is too complex and nuanced a subject to cover in less than a few years. One thing I perceive is that Westerner's seem to fear Asian's. Fear brings unreasonable prejudices and attempts to control and limit. 

The most difficult thing for me to do is to look at my automatic culturally based biases. You don't see them unless you stand outside of yourself. It is discussions like these they help us to do what acrimony would never do. 

We have equal roles in the biases. There are no victims here although my previous post would bely that. I endured weeks and many post of the demonization of Western women and was feeling sorry for us women. We don't need that though. 

I actually see the choice to pursue partners of other races as a positive force. We can even consider it a necessary evolutionary force. Of course I would, given my choice. 

Our marriage was not universally greeted with joy. My family gave the most problems. It has gotten better but I will never forget the things that were said about me and the man I love.

I feel the same about being part of two races and cultures as you about two cultures. I am neither one race or the other. 

My husband and I have known each other since we were kids in the neighborhood. His parents took me under their wing and offered me a stability that I did not have in my home. 

I was acculturated early, bicultural. He hung out with my family too. I contrived vigorously to make that happen as little as possible. Too crazy making.

Social and geographic isolation leads to stagnation. That is a reason that mixed partnership may be sought. It's healthy for genetic diversity and cultural cross pollination. Its it a force of nature.


----------



## lifeistooshort

The only stereotype I really see regarding Asians is western men that actively stereotype western women and look for Asian ladies because they are under the impression that Asian ladies will kiss their a$$. All people have their own stereotypes to deal with, as a Jew I can tell you their is plenty of stereotyping of us, and most if not all of it is stupid. Heck, I'm married to an older man and you don't think people stereotype me as a gold digger? Which is laughable because I have quite a lucrative career, but I digress.....there will always be stereotyping so why worry about it? We laugh at it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## greenpearl

Tell you guys another secret about the interracial marriages here in Taiwan. 

You seldom see a western man here walk with a hot looking Taiwanese woman. These women are just average looking, very plain. They are not hot at all by any standards. 

I don't understand why these western men don't marry hot looking Taiwanese women. My husband's theory is that hot looking Taiwanese women don't want to marry western men. They want to marry rich Taiwanese men. We have stereotypes against western men here too. People here think that western men are irresponsible and they **** around. Parents are usually worried if their daughter wants to date a western man. They do whatever they can to stop their relationship.

There is another forum for western men in Taiwan. Men here say that Taiwanese women are psychos. This man said that his ex girlfriend almost destroyed his apartment after he broke up with her. These women can be terrible when they don't get what they want. There is no submissiveness. And most of the women in Taiwan don't cook. Now you only see the old generation cook. They are like above 60 years old. Women who are under 40 years old don't cook. They eat out.


----------



## RandomDude

> The only stereotype I really see regarding Asians is western men that actively stereotype western women and look for Asian ladies because they are under the impression that Asian ladies will kiss their a$$.


Ironic really too that my FIL is the ass-kisser and MIL the boss in their family. Shame really, cause I actually prefer dealing with the FIL if only he grew some balls to deal with his wife!


----------



## that_girl

I don't even know what is happening here. lol.

I was born and raised in California. White parents who divorced. 

I am an amazing wife (when I was one), an honorable mother, a caregiver, I work, I keep this house awesomely kept, I cook, bake, BBQ and have learned to do all the yard work.

Western--- Eastern--- who gives a crap.

Although, ironically, I'm not attracted to white men


----------



## lifeistooshort

RandomDude said:


> Ironic really too that my FIL is the ass-kisser and MIL the boss in their family. Shame really, cause I actually prefer dealing with the FIL if only he grew some balls to deal with his wife!


I'm not surprised, they are under that impression but I've not seen it actually work out like that. In my army time I saw many men go to Korea and get married, then when they bring her back to the US she starts bossing him around. I work closely every day with an awesome lady from China and she's always telling me how stupid that stereotype is and how they don't kiss anyone's arse. My family is from Russia and they'll kiss your arse until they get their green card, then they take over the house.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tulsy

Catherine602 said:


> ....
> 
> However, it has become a sport among Western men to blame the women in their society for the collapse of values, and all of the ills that have befallen us.
> 
> I don't hear men of other cultures running down their woman like men in the English speaking world. To me, it makes them seem weak, impotent and small minded. ...


I am a western, English speaking man, and this is also a stereotype.


----------



## Wiserforit

The most obvious distinction is the lack of women who self-identify as feminists in Asian cultures.

Already in this thread they have been labelled as "submissive", a shaming/guilt-tripping tactic of feminists.

If you aren't actively hating on men, that's being "submissive".


----------



## RandomDude

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm not surprised, they are under that impression but I've not seen it actually work out like that. In my army time I saw many men go to Korea and get married, then when they bring her back to the US she starts bossing him around. I work closely every day with an awesome lady from China and she's always telling me how stupid that stereotype is and how they don't kiss anyone's arse. My family is from Russia and they'll kiss your arse until they get their green card, then they take over the house.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Aye, they play the stereotype like a pro lol



that_girl said:


> Although, ironically, I'm not attracted to white men


Eh, and why not?


----------



## treyvion

Wiserforit said:


> The most obvious distinction is the lack of women who self-identify as feminists in Asian cultures.
> 
> Already in this thread they have been labelled as "submissive", a shaming/guilt-tripping tactic of feminists.
> 
> If you aren't actively hating on men, that's being "submissive".


Obviously, they should be converted.


----------



## EleGirl

Wiserforit said:


> The most obvious distinction is the lack of women who self-identify as feminists in Asian cultures.
> 
> Already in this thread they have been labelled as "submissive", a shaming/guilt-tripping tactic of feminists.
> 
> If you aren't actively hating on men, that's being "submissive".


No one on this thread has said that Asian women are submissive.

Some posters have said that there exists a stereo type that some men believe ... that Asian woman are submissive and thus make better wives. 

But keep up with your stereo type of western women and feminism. Obviously that stereo type is just find to toss around.


----------



## that_girl

RandomDude said:


> Eh, and why not?


I dunno, RD! I have tried...lol.

Imo, There is nothing wrong with being "submissive" when that means taking good care of your family and mate.

Doing things out of love is an amazing gift.

I'm sure the men give back as well. 

I like to give...but I also speak up when I smell BS.


----------



## RandomDude

treyvion said:


> Obviously, they should be converted.


By the sword? 



EleGirl said:


> No one on this thread has said that Asian women are submissive.
> 
> Some posters have said that there exists a stereo type that some men believe ... that Asian woman are submissive and thus make better wives.
> 
> But keep up with your stereo type of western women and feminism. Obviously that stereo type is just find to toss around.


Hehe this thread is too fun!


----------



## that_girl

I don't hate on men  But I wouldn't consider myself a submissive. I just like to take care of my family.


----------



## RandomDude

I can't deny the strength of the stereotype of Asian women that exists though, and it exists among both Asian and Australian men, that western women f--k around and can't maintain a family home etc. In fact, years ago before marriage my family was a little wary of me and my STBXW, because of her head heh. Yet I told them of her half-Asian side and suddenly their fear that their DIL can't build a home was gone :rofl:

STBXW may have been many things, but she did build a home and remained faithful unlike the stereotypes. Though, being mixed, some say she's just a whole other race by herself lol. Meh, she was just an individual like the rest of us.

But yeah, stereotypes. It's just fun!



> I don't hate on men  But I wouldn't consider myself a submissive. I just like to take care of my family.


Then you are not a western woman lol


----------



## greenpearl

that_girl said:


> I don't hate on men  But I wouldn't consider myself a submissive. I just like to take care of my family.


If people think it is not a good idea for women to be submissive, I do think it is important for a woman to be respectful towards her husband. Men value respect a lot. His wife's respect for him makes him feel dignified. But on the other hand, the man has to be respectful towards his wife too. You get respect when you respect others.


----------



## greenpearl

RandomDude said:


> I can't deny the strength of the stereotype of Asian women that exists though, and it exists among both Asian and Australian men, that western women f--k around and can't maintain a family home etc. In fact, years ago before marriage my family was a little wary of me and my STBXW, because of her head heh. Yet I told them of her half-Asian side and suddenly their fear that their DIL can't build a home was gone :rofl:
> 
> STBXW may have been many things, but she did build a home and remained faithful unlike the stereotypes. Though, being mixed, some say she's just a whole other race by herself lol. Meh, she was just an individual like the rest of us.
> 
> But yeah, stereotypes. It's just fun!
> 
> 
> 
> Then you are not a western woman lol


I do agree that we are all individuals, but there is some core value for a certain group of people who have the same background.

For example, we feel that we can trust the people we meet in our religious meetings, because we are being taught the same value. But still it depends on individuals, some people learn well and apply what they learn into their lives; some people just can't learn. Here arrogance is the evil beast that prevent us from learning and applying. And we know arrogance is a common problem people have.


----------



## EleGirl

shy_guy said:


> I think at some point we're going to have to discuss this. Can we discuss it here?


I don’t think that anyone here has a bone to pick with people from any Asian culture. I also don’t think anyone has a bone to pick with men/women who chose a partner form another culture. Many of us are from multi-cultural, multi-racial families. That’s not the issue at all.

I am a bit saddened that you put this thread in the Ladies’ Lounge as though it’s only women who need to be taught something on this topic. I know that your heart is in the right place so it took me a long while to think through a response.

Speaking for myself, the issue is with the vitriol that has been spewed at “American” and “Western” women over the last few months. It’s not just the occasional person who posts here who is doing it. A fairly large number of the regular male posters here join in on these threads and make some pretty awful comments.

Here are a few examples from the most recent thread. It’s not all of the quotes on that thread putting down western women, just a few. Was any of this necessary? Someone comes here asking for help and then sets about insulting half of the people on this forum who he’s asking advice from? 



> I've probably dated around 30 or so women and yet I've never met anyone who even comes close to her in terms of values and attributes. Whereas when I was in south east Asia during the last few years it was like night and day by comparison. Cultural values and upbringing really do make all the difference.





> Trust me, his chances of a successful marriage with a Filipina are much better than with a Western woman.





> Now, it could be that those guys don't have much to offer and therefore they are rejected by western women, or it could be that western women are far more likely to be way too ambitious in terms of what they feel they deserve. That's a matter for debate of course, but you only have to take a look at western media to get a clue as to which is the most plausible of the two explanations.





> You're suggesting that I talk to her about how bad western culture is and how bad the women are, and I suppose I could do that. Although I'm not sure if there's much need for that as she already feels that way. She's very critical about western women already and she has no wish to change in that direction.





> But what I myself am saying is that the values which non western women are brought up with make them far more likely to turn out to be desireable, whereas the values in which western women are brought up with greatly increase the chances of them turning out to be trash.





> There's nothing wrong with western women as such but their culture brings out the worst in them and makes them undesireable to a lot of men, and that's why western men have been seeking an alternative for quite some time now.





> he is disappointed with western culture and and most of the western women.


This is not the “western women” on this forum writing stereo types about Asian women. These are stereo types about “western women” that we are just supposed to accept quietly?


----------



## EleGirl

RandomDude said:


> By the sword?
> 
> 
> 
> Hehe this thread is too fun!


You better be careful or I'm gona get a feminist to set you straight ... :rofl:


----------



## Wiserforit

treyvion said:


> Obviously, they should be converted.


They are. Into american wives. This is how you improve the average american wife. Remove feminism, make her younger and more beautiful - how can you lose? 

Korea, in the OP has a 3% obesity rate. The USA is over 30% obese, and 67% are both overweight or obese.

Same rate in Japan. A number of other Asian countries are slim as well. So this is another reason Asia has attractive women in general.


----------



## that_girl

greenpearl said:


> If people think it is not a good idea for women to be submissive, I do think it is important for a woman to be respectful towards her husband. Men value respect a lot. His wife's respect for him makes him feel dignified. But on the other hand, the man has to be respectful towards his wife too. You get respect when you respect others.


Where did I say I wasn't respectful or wasn't respected?

When respect dies, resentment builds. That is no matter what culture you come from.

I belonged to an Eastern religion for a long time. I saw many family dynamics. Some based on the religion, some based on culture.

I don't follow my mate around doing everything for him, fetching things for him, that sort of thing, while he barks at me (which I saw LOT in this religion/people of this culture). 

I do, however, like to prepare a hot meal when he gets home, keep the house together and the kids organized (as much as possible haha).

There's submissive and then there's just doing things from love. Whatever that means, and whatever agreement one has, in their own relationships.

ETA: My uncle (white boy) married an Indonesian woman at age 23 (she was 19). They were married 30 years before she left him for someone else. Not a culture thing, as we know.

But I did see her change as the years went by. More "Americanized", if you will...and the more she asserted herself and *gasp* went to college, the more dissatisfied he became with her and they fought more because of it. I don't know if he married her because she was very doting on him at first...but it was just something I saw happen.

My step-father (RIP) married a Salvadoran woman and his reasons were "She does what I say and looks great in a sundress."  Must have worked for them though, because they were married until he died (almost 20 years).


----------



## that_girl

Wiserforit said:


> They are. Into american wives. This is how you improve the average american wife. Remove feminism, make her younger and more beautiful - how can you lose?
> 
> Korea, in the OP has a 3% obesity rate. The USA is over 30% obese, and 67% are both overweight or obese.
> 
> Same rate in Japan. A number of other Asian countries are slim as well. So this is another reason Asia has attractive women in general.


Thankfully, my latino husband liked big boobies and big butts. He also liked a soft belly and considered slim and thin women as "too skinny". He's an American man (born here) but just has a different preference...as people do.  I wouldn't be a good match for someone who likes slim/thin women. I'm curvy and rock it in the sack. :smthumbup:


----------



## greenpearl

that_girl said:


> *Where did I say I wasn't respectful or wasn't respected?
> *
> When respect dies, resentment builds. That is no matter what culture you come from.
> 
> I belonged to an Eastern religion for a long time. I saw many family dynamics. Some based on the religion, some based on culture.
> 
> I don't follow my mate around doing everything for him, fetching things for him, that sort of thing, while he barks at me (which I saw LOT in this religion).
> 
> I do, however, like to prepare a hot meal when he gets home, keep the house together and the kids organized (as much as possible haha).
> 
> There's submissive and then there's just doing things from love. Whatever that means, and whatever agreement one has, in their own relationships.


Internet misunderstanding. I didn't imply that. I was just expressing my opinion.


----------



## that_girl

Ah. Yes. Respect is for any relationship. I don't give a crap if the woman is completely at the mercy of the man (If that's what they choose as a couple). If there is no respect, it's a sh1tty relationship.


----------



## greenpearl

Wiserforit said:


> They are. Into american wives. This is how you improve the average american wife. Remove feminism, make her younger and more beautiful - how can you lose?
> 
> Korea, in the OP has a 3% obesity rate. The USA is over 30% obese, and 67% are both overweight or obese.
> 
> Same rate in Japan. A number of other Asian countries are slim as well. So this is another reason Asia has attractive women in general.


My best friend is from Canada. One day we were discussing about weight problem. She is overweight, but she doesn't get offended when we talk about it. She said when she was in Canada, she just felt that it was normal for people to be big, a lot of the people were big. She didn't feel anything different. But after she came to Taiwan and saw so many forty and fifty- year-old women are still slim, she realized it was the lifestyle choice. You can choose a healthy lifestyle and stay slim, or you can ignore it and become big, it's your choice. She is trying hard to lose weight now.


----------



## that_girl

Hm. I wonder though.

I had a friend in college who moved here from Finland for school. She ate what she ate at home --- yogurts, fruits, nuts, breads and cheeses. And she gained 20 pounds in under 2 months in the States! 

I eat healthy...almost microbiotic....and can't lose weight for shet. (but i do have stupid health issues). I'm not fat...but overweight by 20. I think our food has shet in it that other places' food does not.

But yea, lifestyle is a choice. Can't drink 4 sodas a day and wonder why you can't lose weight. My doctor just says it's estrogen overload  I'm working on it.


----------



## greenpearl

that_girl said:


> Hm. I wonder though.
> 
> I had a friend in college who moved here from Finland for school. She ate what she ate at home --- yogurts, fruits, nuts, breads and cheeses. And she gained 20 pounds in under 2 months in the States!
> 
> I eat healthy...almost microbiotic....and can't lose weight for shet. (but i do have stupid health issues). I'm not fat...but overweight by 20. I think our food has shet in it that other places' food does not.
> 
> But yea, lifestyle is a choice. Can't drink 4 sodas a day and wonder why you can't lose weight. My doctor just says it's estrogen overload  I'm working on it.


As we grow older, it's easier for us to gain weight even though we eat the same thing and the same amount. I think our body just can't digest so much now. Maybe when we are young, we are more active. 

I noticed I gain weight easily if I eat bread, so now I stay away from bread. I also avoid sweets. It's more and more difficult for me to stay slim as I get older. Now I have also skipped night meals even though sometimes I am hungry at night. I eat fruit and vegetables to satisfy my hunger. I think diet really matters here. Our main diet is fruit, vegetables, and some meat. No sweets, no cheese, no cream....................

It's not easy. But when you see that the clothes look good on you, it's a great feeling. Challenge it!!!


----------



## that_girl

Yea. Can't really challenge my health issues  haha...If I could, I wouldn't have the issues. I don't eat wheat, dairy, soy, meat (just fish) and limit my sweets (no artificial shet). No soda, not much alcohol, low sodium. lolol....

I just think American food is diseased before it hits our mouth. Hormones, GMOs, artificial EVERYTHING, preservative, chemicals. It's not real food. Diet food is the worst, yet everyone eats it because it's "Low fat/calories". I dunno.

I eat every 4 hours, small meals..i don't gain weight. I just can't lose. Maybe after my next surgery it will get better.

All I'm saying is that the body type isn't all that it's about. All men don't like thin/slim women. Healthy, yes. Thin? not necessarily.

But genetics play a part too. I'm of German and Irish decent. I'll never have thin arms or tiny/petite stature. I can get thinner and looks amazing, but I look good now too. I'm 37 and feel sexier than I ever did. 

I don't know many Asian women who are traditional. So I guess I don't get it. They eat crap and stay skinny lol!! They can't cook and they love to party. I dunno.


----------



## greenpearl

that_girl said:


> Yea. Can't really challenge my health issues  haha...If I could, I wouldn't have the issues. I don't eat wheat, dairy, soy, meat (just fish) and limit my sweets (no artificial shet). No soda, not much alcohol, low sodium. lolol....
> 
> I just think American food is diseased before it hits our mouth. Hormones, GMOs, artificial EVERYTHING, preservative, chemicals. It's not real food. Diet food is the worst, yet everyone eats it because it's "Low fat/calories". I dunno.
> 
> I eat every 4 hours, small meals..i don't gain weight. I just can't lose. Maybe after my next surgery it will get better.
> 
> All I'm saying is that the body type isn't all that it's about. All men don't like thin/slim women. Healthy, yes. Thin? not necessarily.
> 
> But genetics play a part too. I'm of German and Irish decent. I'll never have thin arms or tiny/petite stature. I can get thinner and looks amazing, but I look good now too. I'm 37 and feel sexier than I ever did.
> 
> I don't know many Asian women who are traditional. So I guess I don't get it. They eat crap and stay skinny lol!! They can't cook and they love to party. I dunno.


When we have health issues, let's get our health back first.  I was sick for a year, I had stomach illness, there was no way I would be think about staying slim, my health was my only concern at that time. I had to eat every two hours, it was really disturbing. I have gained a few pounds because of it, now I am trying to lose it. I have quite a few expensive jeans and dresses, I don't want to desert them and buy new ones. Sometimes expensive clothes are incentive for me to lose weight. 

I agree with you. Not all men like slim women. Some men like plump women. Actually I read an article, it says that plump women know how to enjoy life and that is attractive to men. It also said that plump women enjoy sex more, I don't know about that.


----------



## that_girl

I don't know about that either. lol. I just know what the people I've dated have liked. And they've liked me, at all sizes.

But with Asian women...I have nothing against them nor do I have an attraction  If a white man likes Asian women, so what? I like dark men, but not black men (attraction wise). India, Latino, even dated some Asians. It's preference. If a man knows what he wants in a mate and can't find it within his peers, then he'll look for it elsewhere. Right?


----------



## greenpearl

that_girl said:


> I don't know about that either. lol. I just know what the people I've dated have liked. And they've liked me, at all sizes.
> 
> But with Asian women...I have nothing against them nor do I have an attraction  If a white man likes Asian women, so what? I like dark men, but not black men (attraction wise). India, Latino, even dated some Asians. It's preference. *If a man knows what he wants in a mate and can't find it within his peers, then he'll look for it elsewhere. Right?*


Yes! 

I am attracted to Caucasian. I dated a few Chinese men, and I found them to be boring. Now I don't even glance them, they don't excite me. I don't know about black men, but I definitely find middle eastern men sexy! I mean the ones with good figures!  

My husband was always fascinated by Asian culture. His sister said that she wouldn't be surprised if he got married to a Japanese girl. Well, I am not Japanese, but not much different. He was brought up by a devout Christian mother, and he went to all the meetings when he was young. He likes women who have Christian qualities, but he doesn't like the prude side Christian women have. He likes a woman who is liberal about sex, but respectful towards a man. Fortunately, I fit in his criteria.


----------



## norajane

Wiserforit said:


> They are. Into american wives. *This is how you improve the average american wife. Remove feminism, make her younger and more beautiful - how can you lose? *
> 
> Korea, in the OP has a 3% obesity rate. The USA is over 30% obese, and 67% are both overweight or obese.
> 
> Same rate in Japan. A number of other Asian countries are slim as well. So this is another reason Asia has attractive women in general.


shy_guy, this is the kind of put-down we're talking about when we say there are people on this board who feel the need to go around denigrating American and Western women. This is what we have become sensitive to because it has become so prevalent on TAM lately.


----------



## that_girl

Yea. My husband would hate for me to be a "yes sir" type of girl.

I'm a fiery Irish. A fiery Irish woman who takes pride in her home and family.


----------



## greenpearl

norajane said:


> shy_guy, this is the kind of put-down we're talking about when we say there are people on this board who feel the need to go around denigrating American and Western women. This is what we have become sensitive to because it has become so prevalent on TAM lately.


If men think appearance is so important, they'd better be careful with themselves. If they are not studs, then don't expect that from women.


----------



## RandomDude

that_girl said:


> I do, however, like to prepare a hot meal when he gets home, keep the house together and the kids organized (as much as possible haha).
> 
> There's submissive and then there's just doing things from love. Whatever that means, and whatever agreement one has, in their own relationships.


Eh? Well I agree with you, I wouldn't call all that submissive. My STBX did ensure a hot meal consistently (even if it was horrid everytime), kept the house together and did take care of our daughter. And she was anything but submissive - at least not without a fight! But hey, she was a duty girl, she does her duty then expected me to stand at attention for duty consistently. Not very romantic I'm afraid



> This is what we have become sensitive to because it has become so prevalent on TAM lately.


But what if it's just sharing personal honest experience? Like hey, I never dated Aussie, I personally found them lacking in class - and if I shared that in public all of them will wanna rip me balls off sure! Even half of STBX was from a European background rather than Anglo Saxon, even if she was born here like me. And even she was an exception as I'm normally not attracted to Western women - its the skin/hair =/

And if Anglo-American women are indeed like Anglo-Aussie women, then well, I can share his preference for other races. Though I know there are Anglo women with class, hell many are probably the classest (and perhaps hairless and smooth-skinned) women one may meet, but not the ones I've met. And I have way too many other women to keep me busy to even bother looking for exceptions! 

I can agree that the stereotype that "Western women are feminist/poor home makers/f--k around and Asian women are submissive and loyal" is utter BS, but I can't say to one to change their preferences in the dating cycle.



greenpearl said:


> If men think appearance is so important, they'd better be careful with themselves. If they are not studs, then don't expect that from women.


Lucky for me then for I can still be picky 

At least for the next 10 or so years before I age


----------



## greenpearl

that_girl said:


> Yea. My husband would hate for me to be a "yes sir" type of girl.
> 
> I'm a fiery Irish. A fiery Irish woman who takes pride in her home and family.


I am not "Yes sir" type either. I find that to be weak and not challenging for a man. Men do want their wives to be respectful, but they also want their wives to be able to have smart conversation with. That requires an intelligent brain. 

After so many years of religion studies, I have become more peaceful, less feisty.


----------



## RandomDude

The only "yes sir" type girls I've met all ended up being passive-aggressive ones! Besides, when STBX was "yes sir" what it really meant was "OH JUST YOU WAIT! I'M GOING TO GET PAYBACK!"

So in the end, I don't think "yes sir" type girls exist at all. And if they do, I would actually pity them.


----------



## that_girl

Duty is a lot of life though. Taking care of a home, kids, dogs, yard, working full time on top of it, is duty.

Romance is romance. Gotta infuse it in the duties.


----------



## EleGirl

RandomDude said:


> But what if it's just sharing personal honest experience? Like hey, I never dated Aussie, I personally found them lacking in class –


Are you saying that all Aussie women are lacking in class? Or is it the ones that you know and see around where you live? Do you even know all Aussie women to be able to make such a judgment of all Aussie women?

See, making blanket judgment of all women living in a country based on a subgroup that you might know is just, well very flawed.

I can take any racial and or ethnic group and find a subset of them that are classes, trampy, etc etc. Then, I could justify making bigoted statements about that entire culture. After all that’s how this seems to work with what people are doing in their remarks about western women.


----------



## greenpearl

RandomDude said:


> The only "yes sir" type girls I've met all ended up being passive-aggressive ones! Besides, when STBX was "yes sir" what it really meant was "OH JUST YOU WAIT! I'M GOING TO GET PAYBACK!"
> 
> So in the end, I don't think "yes sir" type girls exist at all. And if they do, I would actually pity them.


They might exist. In BDSM relationships. From some books I read, the submissive women are very happy because the men look after them very well. I don't know if it's true or not. As long as they are happy in their relationships and they get what they want, I don't judge.


----------



## RandomDude

@Elegirl

It's personal experience, like I mentioned 
And I did mention it! Look back lol

Argh! I tried really hard to not come across as blanketing everyone but guess I failed miserably heh

What I'm trying to illustrate is that even though people will believe in exceptions, they won't exactly expect it and would most probably assume the worst. And I do, but there's good things about Aussie women too; they are very down to earth, and most of the time have both feet on the ground. And I've also met a few women who possessed elegance and class but had a big stick up their ass! 

But alas... they are my type 
Just Aussie women I've met arent =/ Hey it's my loss in the end anyways 

@Greenpearl


> They might exist. In BDSM relationships. From some books I read, the submissive women are very happy because the men look after them very well. I don't know if it's true or not. As long as they are happy in their relationships and they get what they want, I don't judge.


Eh? maybe it's just roleplay!


----------



## shy_guy

norajane said:


> The thing is, there aren't a lot of genuinely curious posters asking genuine questions about Asian women as wives. Most of the "Asian wives" threads and posts are there to rile people up and to bash Western women as though Western women are the root of all evil. Like the thread you (and a lot of people) took a lot of care and time in replying to yesterday - that guy was clearly trolling to rile people up and entertain himself.
> 
> So we respond to the crap spewed about Western and Asian women with a jaundiced eye. If the questions were genuine, we'd have a different response.


I have to say, I can't tell by reading the thread whether someone is a troll or not ... well, maybe if he came on bragging that his penis was so large he couldn't have sex and his last three girlfriends had died trying to please him, I could probably spot that as a troll. On the thread I responded to, I couldn't really tell the guy was a troll. It actually sounded like something else to me, so I thought it deserved a decent response ... of course, it gave plenty of opportunity for the other things ... 

I wonder sometimes if we run legitimate questions off because we're very quick to think of someone as a troll.


----------



## shy_guy

Enginerd said:


> To the OP:
> 
> I have been told by Australians, Thai's, Chinese and Mexican's that American men spoil their women. Apparently women around the world think we make good husbands because we've been taught to treat women equally. So my questions are as follows:
> 
> Do Korean men treat their women as equals?
> 
> Are you accepted by Korean men as their equal?
> 
> Do middle aged married Korean men often have girlfriends if they can afford them?
> 
> Thanks


From what I see, I think most men see the women as equals, but there is the same kind of power struggles you may see in other households. There is sometimes the discussion of the occasional "study" that may show women in Japan have a greater influence on the household than the men, and men in Korea have more influence on the household, but I don't know how seriously people think about that. I think the concept of what is necessary for the two to be equal is a little different between the households of my Korean family and friends, and the households of non-Korean friends, but the essence of cooperation was very similar.

So far as I know, I'm treated as an equal by Korean men and women alike. I've been through the turbulent 80's in Korea and seen cultural attitudes about mixed families shift a great deal. As an example, when my wife and I were first married, mixed kids in Korea were often looked down upon, but a part of that is because a number of American servicemen left behind mixed kids that they never returned for. Much of that has been fixed. These days, the predominant cultural attitude toward mixed kids is that they are beautiful.

Since my wife is the stronger cultural influence in our household, most of my friends are Korean. I have some I like, and some that get on my nerves, but whether I like them or not, I don't think I've felt like they treated me as beneath them. There were some tense incidents when I was there in the turbulent 80's, but that was not someone treating me as beneath them ... and It would take one of my long posts to explain them. 

On the question of whether most middle aged Korean men have girlfriends: Not if they want to keep their testicles.  Actually, there are rumors about that kind of thing, and it is a topic of movies, but I don't know of any actual cases of it happening. I'm sure you can find cases where it happens, but it's not something that seems to be common.

*EDIT:* To clarify, lest someone take it wrong, when I say my wife is the stronger cultural influence, I'm not saying I'm a wimp here. I'm simply stating that I'm self aware, and I realize how much I've changed culturally since marrying my wife. I work very hard outside the home (as has she), and when I look objectively at how our household is run, I realize she is the manager of the internals of our household, and a very capable one. I love everything from her very artistic style in decoration to the way she wants us to take our shoes off at the door to keep the house clean, and I respect her wishes there. I let her manage the household because she is so capable, and it frees me up to do other things that are beneficial to both of us. Her management of the household means that our household is much more influenced by her style than by mine, whereas other areas of our life are more influenced by me.


----------



## shy_guy

Elegirl, I can't quote your post, and I don't know why. In that thread, I said I didn't read all of that thread in my post in that thread, but I knew that what I was going to read would raise my blood pressure. I have already been arguing with some of the men in the threads, and I didn't say anything to the women in them so far as I know. But were the women blameless in it? Do you perceive me as picking on the women? or is there possibly a real need to discuss it here? 

I thought the latter.


----------



## shy_guy

Wiserforit said:


> They are. Into american wives. This is how you improve the average american wife. Remove feminism, make her younger and more beautiful - how can you lose?
> 
> Korea, in the OP has a 3% obesity rate. The USA is over 30% obese, and 67% are both overweight or obese.
> 
> Same rate in Japan. A number of other Asian countries are slim as well. So this is another reason Asia has attractive women in general.


Ironically, Korea has a very high rate of Type II Diabetes, despite the obesity rate (And I don't know if the rate you quoted is accurate or not. I don't know where the numbers came from). I think we're going to have a lot more to learn about diabetes because there are entirely too many slim diabetics in places like Korea. I actually think the "diabetic = obese" has become a political tool to coerce behavior in the US, and that's why we don't hear enough about other factors in the US.


----------



## shy_guy

norajane said:


> shy_guy, this is the kind of put-down we're talking about when we say there are people on this board who feel the need to go around denigrating American and Western women. This is what we have become sensitive to because it has become so prevalent on TAM lately.


I agree. However; I don't even know when its serious anymore. I like to joke, but honestly, I'm not comfortable with this type of humor in a place where people can't see faces, hear voices, and don't know whether the person is serious. Even then, I'm not usually comfortable with humor that puts people down.

There have been a couple of times when I thought someone was serious, and tried to get into the discussion, only to be told it was all in jest and all it showed was the some women had a sense of humor. I couldn't catch it from the thread ... and I didn't really think it was funny, anyway.

I don't think the comment you responded to was funny, either. I love to laugh, and love to laugh at myself, but I just don't find those things funny, and on here, I can't tell if someone is trying to be serious or not. I honestly think that's done on purpose sometimes - someone makes a comment on purpose, then when he/she is called on it, it becomes "I was just kidding." Whatever it is, I'm not comfortable with that kind of humor, and I don't like taking a controversial position, then using "where's your sense of humor" as a safety valve. If someone wants to say it, then say it, and at least I know whether we have something to discuss.

I agree with you on the comment not being funny, Norajane. I can see why you didn't think of it as funny. I have been on the other side a few times, too.


----------



## shy_guy

RandomDude said:


> But what if it's just sharing personal honest experience? Like hey, I never dated Aussie, I personally found them lacking in class - and if I shared that in public all of them will wanna rip me balls off sure! Even half of STBX was from a European background rather than Anglo Saxon, even if she was born here like me. And even she was an exception as I'm normally not attracted to Western women - its the skin/hair =/
> 
> And if Anglo-American women are indeed like Anglo-Aussie women, then well, I can share his preference for other races. Though I know there are Anglo women with class, hell many are probably the classest (and perhaps hairless and smooth-skinned) women one may meet, but not the ones I've met. And I have way too many other women to keep me busy to even bother looking for exceptions!
> 
> I can agree that the stereotype that "Western women are feminist/poor home makers/f--k around and Asian women are submissive and loyal" is utter BS, but I can't say to one to change their preferences in the dating cycle.


I think it's in communication skills. I don't know too many people who get upset with someone expressing their preferences. However; when someone lumps them all into a big group and heaps negativity on them, then I think most people will get upset. I think it's also important to realize, and note when you are communicating, that it is an experience with a certain sampling, and not all people of a race/group.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Cosmos said:


> Belonging to groups, social or cultural, help define who we are and
> they are what give people a sense of identity, acceptance, support, cooperation, status and self esteem. At the same time, it can also lead to competitiveness, stereotyping, discrimination and prejudice. Like it or not, this is human nature...
> 
> When cultures merge (particularly people from collectivist cultures, such as Asia, and people from more individualistic cultures, such as the West), there are bound to be differences... However, when we add competition to the mix (eg - "men/women from X culture make better husbands/wives than those from Y culture), those comparisons are bound to lead to ill-feeling within the group who feel that they are being compared...



Interesting hypothesis.
A friend of mine lent me a book recently on human behaviours in organizational structures.
The author said the same thing.


----------



## shy_guy

Catherine, my experience in China has been different from Greenpearl's description, but of course, I doubt I have as much time here as she has. I've really enjoyed it. My experience has been limited to the Shanhai area, Nanjing, and Beijing. I was last in Beijing in the winter, and the air was thick with the smoke of their heating systems ... until one morning the wind was just right to blow it all away and I saw there were mountains not too far from me . However; there is a lot of great culture there if you are a culture lover.

I love the gardens in Shanghai, and Hongzhou, too. The Shanghai museum is a place you must visit if you are awed by ancient culture. There is a pottery history there that goes back to about 2200 BC, and follows the development into the Ming and Qing dynasties. There are many incredible bronze pieces that date to the first century AD ... it was AWESOME IMO. 

I'm living in Shanghai right now - a city of 24 million people where the summer heat is sweltering ... but I'm always out on weekends and in the evenings just because there is so much I enjoy. Of course, you have to be ready to be a novelty item in the outlying areas. 

People I've worked with have been great. I've met many who just wanted to greet and try out their English. I try to always be mindful to be courteous, and the courtesy has always been returned. I've met a few of the lower elements of their society that I won't talk about here, but it's not enough to spoil the experience for me. I've really enjoyed it.

I'm going back to Beijing the week after next. We're taking the express train this time so we can see the countryside between Shanghai and Beijing. I enjoyed the express train trips to Nanjing and to Hongzhou. If you love the history of the countries like China or Korea who claim 5000 years of recorded history, then I think you would enjoy a trip here.

Now that I think I've answered all the questions, I'm hoping to go find someplace still open for dinner. I can eat dinner with a beer here for an average of $5.00 - $6.00, so who wants to cook and heat up the house?


----------



## Starstarfish

I think part of the difficulty is that when the shoe is on the other foot, so to speak (IE its non-Western women people are making comments about) people are quick to call people out as "racist" and "using shame techniques" and everything else. But somehow, because "Western" isn't a racial designation, it's a cultural one, it's magically meant to be a less offensive. Or it isn't because we are "Western" it's because we are all fat feminists. 

I think you can reasonably guess if something is probably going to come across as offensive if you substitute "Western" with say a more specific racial or national designation, and think "Is this something I'd really post, or do I know it sounds bigoted?" If the answer is yes, then - it's time to rethink your phrasing.


----------



## greenpearl

shy_guy said:


> Catherine, my experience in China has been different from Greenpearl's description, but of course, I doubt I have as much time here as she has. I've really enjoyed it. My experience has been limited to the Shanhai area, Nanjing, and Beijing. I was last in Beijing in the winter, and the air was thick with the smoke of their heating systems ... until one morning the wind was just right to blow it all away and I saw there were mountains not too far from me . However; there is a lot of great culture there if you are a culture lover.
> 
> I love the gardens in Shanghai, and Hongzhou, too. The Shanghai museum is a place you must visit if you are awed by ancient culture. There is a pottery history there that goes back to about 2200 BC, and follows the development into the Ming and Qing dynasties. There are many incredible bronze pieces that date to the first century AD ... it was AWESOME IMO.
> 
> I'm living in Shanghai right now - a city of 24 million people where the summer heat is sweltering ... but I'm always out on weekends and in the evenings just because there is so much I enjoy. Of course, you have to be ready to be a novelty item in the outlying areas.
> 
> People I've worked with have been great. I've met many who just wanted to greet and try out their English. I try to always be mindful to be courteous, and the courtesy has always been returned. I've met a few of the lower elements of their society that I won't talk about here, but it's not enough to spoil the experience for me. I've really enjoyed it.
> 
> I'm going back to Beijing the week after next. We're taking the express train this time so we can see the countryside between Shanghai and Beijing. I enjoyed the express train trips to Nanjing and to Hongzhou. If you love the history of the countries like China or Korea who claim 5000 years of recorded history, then I think you would enjoy a trip here.
> 
> Now that I think I've answered all the questions, I'm hoping to go find someplace still open for dinner. I can eat dinner with a beer here for an average of $5.00 - $6.00, so who wants to cook and heat up the house?


I agree with you. 

China had a fascinating history. If you want to visit museums and gardens, there are a lot. There are also lots of beautiful mountains too. I want to take my husband to some of the beautiful places. So far we are still limited to visit families. 

It's great that your experiences there in China are the good ones. When you have good experience there, you like that place. 

I like Taiwan a lot because Taiwan still keeps a lot of Chinese traditional culture. Taiwanese are not friendly to Chinese, but I still like Taiwan. People here are more friendly and trustworthy.

It's cheap to eat out in Taiwan too. But I still like to cook!  My home cooked meals don't give me stomachaches. 

I read that houses in Shanghai and Beijing are horribly expensive. Average people can't afford it.


----------



## always_alone

Wiserforit said:


> They are. Into american wives. This is how you improve the average american wife. Remove feminism, make her younger and more beautiful - how can you lose?


One sister-in-law is from the Phillipines, and she is the head of that household. My brother happily follows.

Second sister-in-law is from China and she is an MD and main breadwinner in that household.

Both are feminists.

When I lived in Japan, young women were frequently refusing to get married because they wanted careers and to be independent.

Feminism is rising in India, as women stand up and fight against rape. It is also rising in the Middle East, as women risk their lives to educate their girls and gain some autonomy over their lives.

Sorry, bud. Feminism is not going away any time soon. It is growing. Exponentially.


----------



## shy_guy

Greenpearl, can you help me out with something. I really want to get some stinky tofu while I'm here. I'm thinking surely I can find it - maybe not quite like you have in Taiwan, but I'd still like to try ... 

Can you give me the Hanzi for that? I can never get pronunciation right based on Pinyin ... my language teacher is trying, but it is hard for me because none of the sounds are what a westerner expects. It's much easier for me to learn the Hanzi, listen to someone pronounce it, and learn how they pronounce it - I'm actually understood when I do that. .

Can you help me out?


----------



## greenpearl

I have left China for over 17 years, so I really can't say much about Chinese women. 

I have lived in Taiwan for over 17 years, I may be able to say something about Taiwanese woman. 

Taiwanese women are not submissive. Some of Taiwanese men are looking for wives in other south east Asian countries because these men don't know how to deal with their Taiwanese women. 

Family values are still strong. After you get married, you might have to live with your in-laws. Taiwanese women don't like it. Taiwanese mother-in-laws are not very nice towards their daughter-in-laws. There is a lot of frustration going on. Some people divorce because of the mother-in-law issues. 

A lot of women stay at home after they give birth to children. Some of them go back to work after their children are in school. A lot of women work, but their salary is theirs. The husbands pay for everything, mortgage, utilities, kid's tuition, etc. Women keep their salaries. 

The grandparents generation still cook. Women who are below forty years old seldom cook. It's cheap to eat out in Taiwan, so people eat out. It's actually becoming a problem in Taiwan because kids who eat out are becoming overweight. 

Do women here love sex or not? I really don't know much about other people's business. I know infidelity is common in Taiwan. Married or not, they cheat. 

Women here do try hard to stay in shape and they spend a lot of money on their skin. When you see a woman, you think she is 30, her real age is 40. I know this woman, she is 37 years old, her British husband is 30 years old, but she looks younger than he is. She doesn't have any wrinkles, and his forehead has a lot of lines. But there are overweight women, just like everywhere else.


----------



## greenpearl

shy_guy said:


> Greenpearl, can you help me out with something. I really want to get some stinky tofu while I'm here. I'm thinking surely I can find it - maybe not quite like you have in Taiwan, but I'd still like to try ...
> 
> Can you give me the Hanzi for that? I can never get pronunciation right based on Pinyin ... my language teacher is trying, but it is hard for me because none of the sounds are what a westerner expects. It's much easier for me to get the Hanzi, listen to someone pronounce it, and learn how they pronounce it - I'm actually understood when I do that. .
> 
> Can you help me out?


:rofl: :rofl:

You are a brave man! 

臭豆腐 cho doe foo

cho (the fourth tone) doe (the fourth tone) foo ( the third tone)


----------



## Catherine602

Shy Guy you make me quite envious. What a life you have and are having. I wish I could be emerged in Chinese culture as you are. 

My kids are 4 and 6, too young to make the type of trip we want to take. We want to wait until the youngest is 6 and stay a month. They are resilient kids used to roughing it at times. 

There are excellent travel groups that offer educational trips for that length. We have former students who live in china who we will visit. My husband may be able to give a talk or two while he is there. now. Before we go, we want to lean at lest a little Chinese. 

Enough to greet people courteously and understand some of what is said. I leaned a lot about cultural practices long ago so I am sure it is outdated. We'll take refresher in that. I teach adults from all around the world including Asia. I think they are different at home. 

How difficult was it for you to learn Korean and Chinese? Can you read and write? Chinese seems especially difficult because intonation is so important. 

It has been a dream to see China from the time I was a child. Spent many hours in libraries and book store and dreaming. Your talk about you life there brought back those long ago dreams. I hope it comes to be that I can make many trips. 

We have friends who travel to China frequently for business. The wife is tall and blond. People stop her on the street to take pictures with her and to chat. At first she was self-conscious but not anymore. 

She likes it now, they have made friends in China because of her unusual, for them, appearence. It is not the color but the height and looks that get attention. She is almost 6 ft tall and beautiful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## shy_guy

Catherine602 said:


> Shy Guy you make me quite envious. What a life you have and are having. I wish I could be emerged in Chinese culture as you are.
> 
> My kids are 4 and 6, too young to make the type of trip we want to take. We want to wait until the youngest is 6 and stay a month. They are resilient kids used to roughing it at times.
> 
> There are excellent travel groups that offer educational trips for that length. We have former students who live in china who we will visit. My husband may be able to give a talk or two while he is there. now. Before we go, we want to lean at lest a little Chinese.
> 
> Enough to greet people courteously and understand some of what is said. I leaned a lot about cultural practices long ago so I am sure it is outdated. We'll take refresher in that. I teach adults from all around the world including Asia. I think they are different at home.
> 
> How difficult was it for you to learn Korean and Chinese? Can you read and write? Chinese seems especially difficult because intonation is so important.
> 
> It has been a dream to see China from the time I was a child. Spent many hours in libraries and book store and dreaming. Your talk about you life there brought back those long ago dreams. I hope it comes to be that I can make many trips.
> 
> We have friends who travel to China frequently for business. The wife is tall and blond. People stop her on the street to take pictures with her and to chat. At first she was self-conscious but not anymore.
> 
> She likes it now, they have made friends in China because of her unusual, for them, appearence. It is not the color but the height and looks that get attention. She is almost 6 ft tall and beautiful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
I LOVE the study of languages with a capital L O V E!!!  and my experiences with learning Korean and Mandarin are very different. I'm still very new to Mandarin - only been studying since January. 

First, the two are vastly different. For Korean, the grammar is VERY complex, and everything you say is rooted in the amount of respect you are paying to the person you are speaking to. In my early days of learning, there were a number of times when I said in frustration, "I understand every word in that sentence, but I have no idea what that sentence means!" Now, though, I understand it quite naturally. When I've been in the US for a long time, I get lazy and don't speak it, so I get to where I can understand it when my wife speaks to me, and I don't have to translate it to understand it, but it is very difficult for me to speak it back to her. However; this last trip back to Korea, I found that in just a couple of weeks, I started thinking in Korean again. I thought if I had about 6 months back in Korea, I could be fluent again.

Korean uses an alphabet with an occasional "hanja" or traditional Chinese character. The alphabet is easy to learn, so if you forget your English pronunciation, and focus on Korean pronunciation of the letters, you can learn to pronounce words pretty quickly ... but you can find that knowing how to pronounce them doesn't help you assign meaning to them . Here, having someone who can help you with the grammar really helps you to learn. My biggest problem to this day, though, is with getting degree of respect right.

Mandarin grammar is an order of magnitude simpler than Korean grammar. For Mandarin, the most difficult thing for me is pronunciation. On a recommendation from a (Beijing) colleague, I started learning Mandarin by working through Pimsleur Mandarin. This does not teach you to read, but it teaches you to speak by listening and speaking. The funny thing is, it works so well for that that people have ALWAYS overestimated my ability in Mandarin as soon as I speak, and I don't always understand what they say back. It's made me easily understood, but it hasn't taken me to that level in my understanding. 

I think Pimsleur is great so long as you don't buy the hype. You won't be fluent in 10 days like they lead you to believe, but still, I practiced twice a day, and went through most lessons 3 times with the occasional lesson taking me 4, and an occasional one taking only 2, and I think I learned more of the language in a shorter length of time than I did with any other language and any other method. 

But as you get close to the end of Mandarin III, you realize you have a lot of holes in what you can communicate, and you begin to realize that to take it from there, you have to take formal classes, learn to read, and fill in some of your gaps. It is GREAT to get you started, and your pronunciation is GREAT if you follow it, but you just have to be realistic about what level it will take you to. It will take you to a level where you can be easily understood in getting around town ... just be ready to be overestimated in what you understand  .

I think now that I've been here a while, the pace at which I'm learning is really accelerating - especially with reading and understanding. I still can't read anywhere nearly well enough to read a newspaper, but I find I can get around town very comfortably, and when I run into difficulty, I can stop and ask for directions.


----------



## that_girl

This thread got me thinking....I have never thought of myself as a "western woman". I am just a woman, born in the United States and I try to be the best person I can be...


----------



## Catherine602

Thank you so much for the info on language. I am going to do a google search. We hear a lot about Rosetta language program here. I actually have the opportunity to practice Mandarin, two of my Fellows are from China. I'll have to ask them about dialect and if they don't mind being annoyed by my attempts to learn. 

We plan to make the language aquisition a family project. I expect that the kids will probably learn faster and better than we will. They can translate.  

I forgot about Chinese dialect. Is Mandarin the most common dialect throughout China or just the northern part? I am surprised that reading is easy to acquire. The pictograms look so intricate. One stroke changes the meaning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## shy_guy

Catherine, you definitely found the thing that can distract me on this thread .

Mandarin is the official language of China. There are hundreds of dialects that are spoken in different parts of China, but in order to unify the country commercially, Mandarin has been made “Standard Chinese.” Everyone has to study that in school, and when people are dealing with each other, unless they know the person they are speaking with speaks their native dialect, they will Mandarin. It’s based on the dialect of Beijing. It was on advice from my colleagues from China that I decided to learn Mandarin, and I think I’ve only had a couple of cases where I spoke to someone in Mandarin and they did not understand the dialect.

Learning to read both languages is really fun, I think, but I actually think learning languages is a lot of fun. I don’t fully buy what people tell me about it being more difficult to learn a language as you get older. I’ll be turning 50 soon, and I can still learn a new language quite comfortably . 

Korean has two ways of writing. Hanja is based on traditional Chinese characters, but isn’t used much anymore. Hangul is an alphabet and is what you see almost exclusively when you see Korean written. When you see Hangul written, you are seeing 2, 3, or 4 letters grouped together in syllables. Let me give a brief example. 

The Korean word for “Korean” is 한국. The initial consonant is top left. If the syllable begins with a vowel sound, then there is a silent consonant in this position. Next is the vowel or vowels. Some vowels are on the right side and some are below. Some dipthongs contain a vowel on the bottom and one on the right. If there is a terminating consonant or consonants, they are on the bottom on the syllable. So breaking down what I wrote above:

ㅎis an “H” sound
ㅏis an “ah” sound
ㄴ is an “n” sound, so the first syllable is “han” where the “a” makes an “ah” sound.

Second syllable, first letter is ㄱ which makes a sound about halfway between a G and a K when it is at the beginning of the syllable.
The vowel is ㅜ which is a long U sound. 
It terminates with ㄱ which makes a K sound at the end of a syllable. So it will be “Guk” with a long U sound. (This syllable is also Romanized as “kuk”, “kook” or “****.”

So the next time you see the sign for “Hankook” tires, you know what the Hangul is behind that, and you know it really means “Korean tires.” 

With Chinese, there is Traditional, and Simplified Hanzi. Simplified is mostly what is used in mainland China. Taiwan and Hong Kong still use mostly traditional Hanzi. When Japanese or Korean uses a Sino character in Japanese Kanje or Korean Hanja, it is the Traditional Chinese character. I learned in a lunch conversation with some colleagues recently that not everybody thinks Simplified is easier to learn, and not everybody believes that the government created simplified to help the literacy rate. Almost everybody believes the traditional is more “beautiful” and more fun to write if you like artistic writing, though. 

My teacher tells me that more complex characters often have one part that gives you a clue about pronunciation, but I can’t yet tell when that’s the case – I just recognize the similar pronunciation after someone teaches me how to pronounce it. This leads me to have many characters I can recognize and know the meaning of because I learned them in context, but I still don’t know how to pronounce them. Likewise, learning via Pimsleur, I have a lot of words I can pronounce that I learned the character much later. I do find it easy to put them together once I know one – I can learn the other very quickly, and usually realize I hear it, or see it often. The context learning is something that only happens when you’re immersed, though. 

I love making up the little stories or mnemonics to help me remember. I only need the mnemonic at first, but sometimes, I just like the stories I can see in the characters. A few examples:

女 means “Woman” or female. 子 is child. If you put woman and child together in one character: 好 you have the character for “Good” or “well.” Is there anything in the world that symbolizes goodness more than a woman with her child?

Now the child must learn. So we take the child, and put on his/her thinking cap. For the thinking cap, it should really show brilliance – show new ideas being formed. We tell the child to put on his thinking cap when he/she studies. With that (my) story in mind, would it not make sense that 学 means study? (Please tell me you can see the child and the thinking cap  )

Another part that makes it fun is when it begins to open up other things that you may have used for a long time, but didn’t realize the meaning behind it. Two examples here in Chinese.

From street signs, you quickly learn that 北 means “North.” At some point, you’ll learn that it is pronounced “Bei” with a falling-rising tone (third tone). You may also quickly learn that 京 means “Capital.” It is pronounced “Jing” with a high level tone (first tone). So you won’t be surprised to see 北京 on the map, and to learn that “Beijing” means “North capital.”

And you probably learn from seeing on so many street signs that 南 means “South.” When you learn that it is pronounced “Nan” with a rising tone (second tone), and see 南京 on the map, you suddenly know what “Nanjing” means. .

The study of the languages never ceases to be interesting to me. You’ll do fine with it. Us older people really can learn. For Mandarin, I would recommend something that teaches you pronunciation first (like Pimsleur) because it really is the hardest part of the language IMO.


----------



## greenpearl

shy_guy, 

I don't know if my information is wrong or not. 

女 also means "daughter". 好 means you have a daughter and a son. Chinese people like children. If you only have daughters, it's not good. If you only have sons, not that great either. But if you have daughters and sons, you are satisfied.


----------



## shy_guy

greenpearl said:


> shy_guy,
> 
> I don't know if my information is wrong or not.
> 
> 女 also means "daughter". 好 means you have a daughter and a son. Chinese people like children. If you only have daughters, it's not good. If you only have sons, not that great either. But if you have daughters and sons, you are satisfied.


My language teacher also gave me that exact same mnemonic. I've heard that, yes  It's neat. I had just thought of the "Woman with her child" before I heard that one, so it was my mnemonic.


----------



## greenpearl

shy_guy said:


> My language teacher also gave me that exact same mnemonic. I've heard that, yes  It's neat. I had just thought of the "Woman with her child" before I heard that one, so it was my mnemonic.


In China, it's important for a woman to give birth to a son. Your expression makes a lot of sense too. Actually it is the first time I heard about it. 

You are great for learning another language at 50 years old. I have thought about learning another language, just don't know which language I should study. I am very practical about things I learn. If it doesn't benefit me much, I am not motivated. Right now I speak the most two popular languages in the world, and that's enough if I want to travel.


----------



## GoBlue

I feel that stereotypes get confused with cultural history sometimes, and that modern times move so fast and things change every year, so it's very hard to generalize. 

I think Asian women are absolutely GORGEOUS. I would love to be one in my next life 

On culture and family, I adore certain regions/ cultures for their family values, and sometimes I wish Americans were stronger in that regard.

Some cultures are very sexual. In some South American countries, it is not uncommon to see couples touching or french kissing in the middle of dinner. You get used to it after a while, and I kind of love that actually! 

Some cultures are very blunt, honest, and I can sometimes feel insulted by what they say, but then after being around them and their families for some time them I realize it's just what they are used to.

On a more primal level, I adore Italian and Eastern European men. I have no idea why  but they are so interesting to me. And an accent of any kind is amusing 

I am thankful for all of our differences! Because life would be boring otherwise!


----------



## Catherine602

Shy Guy I asked my husband to read your posts. He usually skims if I ask him or he asks me to tell him what it says. He read your post twice. He wants me to invite you to dinner. 

This rekindled our talk about what we want to do with our lives. We had plans to travel though China and India when we first got married. School, then jobs then kids crowded in and those dreams fell away. 

We brought them back to life. Remembering those intense feelings of adventure and endless possibilities. Its too bad that dreams must be deferred when you are a grown up. 

The Chinese letter lesson was facinating. Thank you as well Greenpearl. We want to invite your and your husband to dinner too. 

What did you eat for dinner the other night? Can you take pictures of the food or places you go from day to day? 

Can I ask if you can post in the social section -A day in the life of Shy Guy. a narrative of what you do, where you go, who you speak with and some pictures of the places you go. Especially food. i love to see what there is to eat. A little background on your expat status. 

Without compromising you privacy that is. 

You can give tidbits about language, culture and people.


----------



## Catherine602

Found your other thread, Speak to Me in English. I rarely go to the Social section.


----------



## shy_guy

Catherine, I think a dinner with your husband and you would be a very interesting and enjoyable evening. 

I have a few things I will direct you to, but it's getting late for me tonight. I'll send them to you when I can get back online. 

Cheers.


----------



## that_girl

Is the rumor true about China having so many men but not enough women because they put more value on sons than daughters?

If it is, that makes no sense. You need women to make sons...


----------



## shy_guy

TG, I actually posted on facebook about that a while back.  From where I'm sitting, I sure can't notice a shortage of women. They seem to have about the same proportion that I see elsewhere.


----------



## that_girl

I read a while back that China had to get women from other countries because there weren't enough Chinese women.

All speculation, of course. I just was like, "eh??"


----------



## life101

And what is all this crap about Indian food giving you diarrhea? Either you are eating at bad restaurants, or you don't know how to cook it properly. Like, every time I go to a Subway, my stomach gets upset. So stop this ^#&%^#$. 

Just kidding. I love you peeps. :angel3:


----------



## greenpearl

that_girl said:


> Is the rumor true about China having so many men but not enough women because they put more value on sons than daughters?
> 
> If it is, that makes no sense. You need women to make sons...


I think it's true. Depends on where you go. shy-guy goes to big cities in China, so he can't notice the difference. But if you go to rural areas in China, you will be shocked. 

Chinese women are being pampered by men now since there are fewer women than men. Men have to fight to get women's attention. But some rich men can have hundreds of beautiful women, the poor men have none.


----------



## greenpearl

Catherine602 said:


> Shy Guy I asked my husband to read your posts. He usually skims if I ask him or he asks me to tell him what it says. He read your post twice. He wants me to invite you to dinner.
> 
> This rekindled our talk about what we want to do with our lives. We had plans to travel though China and India when we first got married. School, then jobs then kids crowded in and those dreams fell away.
> 
> We brought them back to life. Remembering those intense feelings of adventure and endless possibilities. Its too bad that dreams must be deferred when you are a grown up.
> 
> The Chinese letter lesson was facinating. Thank you as well Greenpearl. We want to invite your and your husband to dinner too.
> 
> What did you eat for dinner the other night? Can you take pictures of the food or places you go from day to day?
> 
> Can I ask if you can post in the social section -A day in the life of Shy Guy. a narrative of what you do, where you go, who you speak with and some pictures of the places you go. Especially food. i love to see what there is to eat. A little background on your expat status.
> 
> Without compromising you privacy that is.
> 
> You can give tidbits about language, culture and people.


If you come to Taiwan, come and be my guests.  I cook good Chinese food. My husband likes to eat my simple home cooked meals. Chinese cooking can be very complicated and it can take hours if you want to cook gourmet dishes, it can also be very simple if you want it quick and easy.


----------



## bubbly girl

Shy_guy I love how you want to set the record straight. Stereotypes can be so frustrating. One of my closest friends (we've been friends since 12 yrs old & she was one of my bridesmaids) is full chinese. Her parents both came from China and she even lived there a few years. I have to laugh when people say how demure and subservient asian women are because that is the FURTHEST thing from my friend's personality.

She was always outspoken. As a matter of fact when we first met in 7th grade I initially found her annoying because I thought she was loud and obnoxious. lol

I deal with different stereotypes myself. I'm 1/2 Cuban. My father was born and raised there and came to the US as an adult. I am a blonde haired, blue eyed cuban...Do you know how many times people tell me "well you must look like your mother." No I look just like my father's side of the family. He has dark hair light skin & blue eyes. I'm the spitting image of his blonde haired blue eyed sister.

First response from people is always "you don't look Cuban." They don't have a clue that Cubans come in all colors. When I speak to other Cubans they don't act shocked. They know. But because I don't fit the stereotype of what they think someone with a latin heritage should look like they always make stupid comments.

I've even had a couple of people tell me my booty wasn't big enough to be part Cuban.


----------



## Wiserforit

always_alone said:


> One sister-in-law is from the Phillipines, and she is the head of that household. My brother happily follows.
> 
> Second sister-in-law is from China and she is an MD and main breadwinner in that household.
> 
> Both are feminists.


Heh. Oh yea - anecdotes. I had a two-headed snake when I was a boy. Therefore snakes have two heads. 


Survey data is clear that the majority of American women self-identify as feminists, whereas it is a rare thing, especially in a place like the Philippines. 

I'll be in the Philippines again for five months starting in November. I built a house there (literally - I build houses) and have been traveling there for ten years. My wife is a Filipina and before that I had Filipina girlfriends. 

How much time have you spent there? Zero, right? So much for your little anecdote. Women throw themselves at an American man over there, just like a dozen other countries I have been traveling to since the 1980's. 




> Sorry, bud. Feminism is not going away any time soon. It is growing. Exponentially.


It isn't a problem for me. I have never dated, lived with, or married one. There isn't a need to.


----------



## that_girl

You haven't dated, lived with, or married a woman who likes to be treated like an equally valued citizen and mate?

Interesting.


----------



## Wiserforit

greenpearl said:


> Taiwanese women are not submissive.


It is very important to point out that it is the critics, like feminists, who are putting Asian women down by calling them "submissive". 

Because they aren't feminists. That's how you define submissive in the new age of politically correct misandry. 

There isn't any misunderstanding. This is a shaming/guilt-tripping tactic. You need to paint the Asian woman as some kind of pathetic half-human and the men who like them as a vicious exploiter of the mentally retarded.

Look at *that_girl* for example proving the point. Every woman I have ever been with has been by her own accounting an equal.

But since none of them were feminists, she instantly pulls the shaming/guilt-tripping meme out like western women are inclulcated to do.

Even when they dont' identify as feminists themselves, growing up in a culture of politically correct misandry means they have a whole menu of memes they feel entitled to use, like calling my wife a less than equal member of society. Why? Because none of them were feminists.

See how it is HER who makes this accusation, not me. Of course, it is concealed as a question, as if she wasn't really just making a snide remark. I am supposed to start blubbering defensively out of shame and guilt. 

But it doesn't work on me.


----------



## Wiserforit

that_girl said:


> I don't know about that either. lol. I just know what the people I've dated have liked. And they've liked me, at all sizes.
> 
> But with Asian women...I have nothing against them nor do I have an attraction  If a white man likes Asian women, so what? I like dark men, but not black men (attraction wise). India, Latino, even dated some Asians. It's preference. If a man knows what he wants in a mate and can't find it within his peers, then he'll look for it elsewhere. Right?


Before your last post, I had actually started a response to this, complimenting you on how refreshing it was.

But look how quick you were to pull out the put-downs on the women I had as partners. Because they weren't feminists.

This is exactly why it is so wonderful to experience cultures that aren't taken in by the politically correct misandry. Even when you claim not to be bothered by it, you still pull out the memes to shame and guilt-trip people.


----------



## RandomDude

greenpearl said:


> I think it's true. Depends on where you go. shy-guy goes to big cities in China, so he can't notice the difference. But if you go to rural areas in China, you will be shocked.
> 
> Chinese women are being pampered by men now since there are fewer women than men. Men have to fight to get women's attention.*But some rich men can have hundreds of beautiful women, the poor men have none.*


Lol! Yeah that's normally how it goes haha

Explains why these Chinese men are importing wives from Russia, the Phillipines, Vietnam and other countries. Funny really, because Chinese women are being exported as well!


----------



## Catherine602

Wiserforit said:


> It is very important to point out that it is the critics, like feminists, who are putting Asian women down by calling them "submissive".
> 
> Because they aren't feminists. That's how you define submissive in the new age of politically correct misandry.
> 
> There isn't any misunderstanding. This is a shaming/guilt-tripping tactic. You need to paint the Asian woman as some kind of pathetic half-human and the men who like them as a vicious exploiter of the mentally retarded.
> 
> Look at *that_girl* for example proving the point. Every woman I have ever been with has been by her own accounting an equal.
> 
> But since none of them were feminists, she instantly pulls the shaming/guilt-tripping meme out like western women are inclulcated to do.
> 
> Even when they dont' identify as feminists themselves, growing up in a culture of politically correct misandry means they have a whole menu of memes they feel entitled to use, like calling my wife a less than equal member of society. Why? Because none of them were feminists.
> 
> See how it is HER who makes this accusation, not me. Of course, it is concealed as a question, as if she wasn't really just making a snide remark. I am supposed to start blubbering defensively out of shame and guilt.
> 
> But it doesn't work on me.


When i see your posts, I have to wonder what you hope to accomplish posting these angry tirades. You are venting but I don't see why you need to be provocative. 

You have everything that anyone can desire in relationships. You found a place with an abundance of women who are compatible with you and who you find admirable and very attractive. 

You are one of the lucky ones. Not many men get the opportunity to experience other cultures and find a perfect fit. They are stuck where they are with what is available. 

Forget the past. You are fortunate. Why let rage cloud your vision and poison a happy existence? If American women and feminist are so horrible then they will feel the error of their ways. Your revenge is to live your victory. 

You seem to care very much about men being mistreated in relationships. Why not start a blog or advice newsletter for men who are unhappy with the pickings in the US and who are looking for alternatives?

That would be far more effective than being angry. And I think it will make you happy to help. Besides, i think that If you help other men you would get a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment and the anger will die a natural death. 

I hope you take what i wrote in the spirit it is meant. I posted because i was impressed by the incongruity of your anger towards some women and what sounds like a happy, satisfying and even idilic love life. 

If I am incorrect please forgive me.


----------



## greenpearl

RandomDude said:


> Lol! Yeah that's normally how it goes haha
> 
> Explains why these Chinese men are importing wives from Russia, the Phillipines, Vietnam and other countries. Funny really, because Chinese women are being exported as well!


You will always see people marry someone who is not from their own country. That will never change. But as the economy gets better and better in China, fewer and fewer Chinese women will want to leave their home country and settle down in a foreign place.


----------



## larry.gray

greenpearl said:


> I think it's true. Depends on where you go. shy-guy goes to big cities in China, so he can't notice the difference. But if you go to rural areas in China, you will be shocked.
> 
> Chinese women are being pampered by men now since there are fewer women than men. Men have to fight to get women's attention. But some rich men can have hundreds of beautiful women, the poor men have none.


I've only been to the cities. I notice there are far more women than men, and mostly young ones at that. The factories desire women workers over men for the hi-tech assembly factories. So the recruiters bring in busload after busload of young women.

I would imagine that only results in even fewer women in the rural areas.


----------



## larry.gray

greenpearl said:


> You will always see people marry someone who is not from their own country. That will never change. But as the economy gets better and better in China, fewer and fewer Chinese women will want to leave their home country and settle down in a foreign place.


The same thing happened in India. We don't get college students from there anymore. When I was in school, there were dozens of them going to school in my engineering class of 90. 

Engineers there earn 1/3 to 1/2 of what they do here. But their standard of living is pretty much the same, without having to deal with moving half way around the world and adjusting to a new culture.


----------



## greenpearl

larry.gray said:


> I've only been to the cities. I notice there are far more women than men, and mostly young ones at that. The factories desire women workers over men for the hi-tech assembly factories. So the recruiters bring in busload after busload of young women.
> 
> I would imagine that only results in even fewer women in the rural areas.


People flock to the cities. A lot of men have left their farmland and gone to the cities to look for work. In the villages, you might see more women than men because women have to stay at home and look after the babies. Actually very often you see only old people. 

If you see more women on the shopping street, that doesn't count. Because more women like to go shopping than men.


----------



## greenpearl

larry.gray said:


> The same thing happened in India. We don't get college students from there anymore. When I was in school, there were dozens of them going to school in my engineering class of 90.
> 
> Engineers there earn 1/3 to 1/2 of what they do here. But their standard of living is pretty much the same, without having to deal with moving half way around the world and adjusting to a new culture.


The standard of living might be the same. But the quality of life might be different. In China, people are worried about the food they eat and the air they breathe.


----------



## shy_guy

Let me take a stab at the "feminism" rub between men, women, and the east. This is my hypothesis, and I'm just putting it out for you to think about it. 

Separate the word feminism from its idea, and separate both of them from its implementation. So (the word "feminism") <> (The ideals of feminism) <> (how feminism is put in practice). Consider the three as three separate things all together.

It seems to me that when many women (not all) say "feminism," what they think they are saying is "Equality between women and men." How they think that is to be demonstrated is if a woman demonstrates certain activities and attitudes that they believe embodies feminism. However; these demonstrated attitudes and activites are implementation. Many will also believe that certain laws must be in place that give advantages in certain areas. However, once again, this is implementation.

When men hear the ideals of feminism, I think there is very broad agreement with those ideals. However; when a man encounters what he thinks is an "us vs. them" attitude, or an attitude that thinks a certain law must be in place that he feels puts him at a disadvantage, or doesn't consider that women in his family depend on him and what he does, then he begins to see feminism by its implementation details, and begins to have negative feelings against it.

Feminism is an English word. It has meaning in English that it has developed over the years in that culture and context. The men and women of that culture begin to disagree on the meaning of the word based on whether they see it by its ideals, or by its implementation, and based on whether they see it as fair in that light or not. People really do see things as fair or not based on their membership, and whether they can gain an advantage with it. These things I'm putting forward as even-handedly as I can, while realizing whose skin I speak from within. Hopefully, you can follow me on this.

Now take feminisim out of the cultural and language context where it developed, and present it to someone of another culture. Let's make this person a woman for the sake of this discussion. If you tell her that being a feminist means you believe in equality between men and women, you're almost certain to get agreement. If you present it to men in that culture, I think you're very likely to find broad agreement as well. But when that person, from an entirely different cultural perspective, looks at the implementations, and the direction the fight between men and women has taken in the culture she is looking from, the implementation may seem entirely silly or foreign. It has become a battle in the US, and a lot of that battle is over implementation, not ideals, but in the pursuit of a position that is being defined as "feminist," ground has been fought over and taken, and held, and from either side, when they go past the original lines of battle for equality, there is not a recognition and correction in the eyes of this observer from completely outside this battle, it is very possible for that person to not want to be identified with the battle at all - not want to take either side.

That can lead someone to believe in the ideals of equality, but not want to be identified by the name "Feminist." From outside the battle, the person can look at goals and tactics of people inside the battle and decide the people fighting may have gone overboard in one direction or another, and they may look at their own situation, see their equality in a different light which is partly borne from their culture, their family, their children, and the divisions of labor they have worked out in their families completely outside of this raging battle elsewhere, and they may decide the implementation of that ideal of equality is something completely different from what is considered "essential doctrine" by those fighting for the ideals elsewhere. In other words, they very much believe they are treated well (or well enough) and don't have any part of the battle.

Now when those within the battle see those outside, and see they are not fighting for a certain implementation detail, it's easy to confuse the wording again, and say that if that person does not agree on a certain point, or hold a certain attitude, or think she must have certain things, then think that person isn't really equal, but I think that is also missing the other person's perspective from within her culture.

I think what can happen is that we can begin to play word games here by forgetting that the ideals do not equal the implementation and neither equals the word "feminism." But when one person says "They don't identify as feminist," he/she is telling the truth, but may have missed why the person doesn't identify as feminist, and may himself/herself be missing the disconnect between the ideals and the implementation, and they're using the word to try to define two entirely different things. From the other side, when that person says "They're not feminists," another person can react and say, "You mean they don't want to be treated equal or <insert ideals and omit implementation here>" and again, try to use the word "feminism" to define two separate things (ideals and implementation." Neither use of the word is correct, though, IMO. 

We can talk about the implementation, and how it affects men and women very differently, and we can identify weaknesses or problems, but that is implementation. Meanwhile, there are people outside of this entire battle who believe in equality, have found that in the teamwork they have with their families, and really don't want any part of the fight elsewhere. Trying to define them in the words of the fight, or trying to gin up their support with the rallying cries probably doesn't get the kind of response that was hoped. This can then become the disagreement we're seeing here - people wanting to make them a battle ground when they want no part of the battle, even. 

But keep in mind, the implementation is very much cultural, so when people move from one culture to another, there is a cultural shift. What I've observed is that there is a big cultural difference in the US between first generation immigrants and their children who get caught in a culture half-way between their parents and their friends. Then the grandchildren of immigrants are different culturally again as they tend to be fully American in culture. Mixed children seem to make the cultural shift toward the culture where they live a little more quickly. 

That's how I see it, and I'm not attempting to comment on any of the implementation details of Feminism in the US or Europe - I'm just trying to lay out what I see as the essence of the rub. Feel free to agree or disagree with me.


----------



## shy_guy

I will agree with Greenpearl. My experience in China is limited to big cities and a few tourist spots (Tourist spots mostly for Chinese tourists). I don't have the experience in the rural areas, and as I pointed out, I only have contact with 3 major metro areas even. It's very fair to say my experience in China is limited.

I have much broader contact with Korea for obvious reasons.


----------



## Starstarfish

I agree with Shy Guy - feminism is a word that can mean any number of things to any number of people. Just like when someone identifies as Christian, Democrat, Republican, or any other group identification - they may still have any of a number of personal beliefs about things. 

Ultimately, you can't really know for certain what an individual believes unless you ask them, no matter what group label they use.


----------



## RandomDude

Korean women are hot, only problem is that many of them here in AUS can't rob two english sentences together and mostly hang around themselves. Although I learnt a bit of Korean (mostly swear words, flirts and funny jokes) to break the ice half the time hehe.


----------



## always_alone

Wiserforit said:


> Heh. Oh yea - anecdotes. I had a two-headed snake when I was a boy. Therefore snakes have two heads.


Classic manipulative argument tactic: ignoring the substance of the post to challenge only the straw man and heap shame on the opponent.

Yes, I listed a couple of anecdotes. I also pointed to a trend showing itself in many different countries. You chose to ignore this to roll your eyes at me. Why?

I have travelled extensively -- for years! --through Asia and South-East Asia, and have seen/learned many things during this time. Yes, this is still my experience and hence anecdotal, but my anecdotes are just as worthwhile as the ones you are offering.

Just because you only notice the women throwing themselves at American men doesn't mean that's all that is going on.


----------



## always_alone

shy_guy said:


> Let me take a stab at the "feminism" rub between men, women, and the east. This is my hypothesis, and I'm just putting it out for you to think about it.


I also think that part of what is going on here is that there is a certain brand of '70s - 80s North American feminism that severely traumatized a lot of men of a certain age.

During this period, there were a lot of women full of rage accusing men of being overly-privileged rapists who do nothing but oppress women and are basically not worth the space they occupy on this planet. It was a common meme, especially on college campuses. To give an example of how bad it could get, I was once completely ostracized from a women's centre for suggesting that not all men were the enemy.

Anyway, I believe that there are a number of men (and women, for that matter) who will forever associate the word feminism with this particular extreme attitude, and will forever hate it because of that.


----------

