# Fourth Child or Divorce?!



## Les Clue (Apr 8, 2008)

My 7 year marriage could read like a (bad) novel, so I'll try to highlight the main points and ask for advice:

- My wife and I would both categorize our entire marriage as generally poor

- Recently (1-2 months) we've been doing better, with the help of our third counselor

- We have three very young children, I have a full-time job, she is a grad student in a very vigorous program. Each child was a "surprise," at least to me...

- We have resentment issues. She has had a major spending problem (still has trouble with sticking to a budget, though she is trying), recently cheated on me with a woman and lied to me about it, has anger issues, etc. She would say that I am controlling, unsupportive (particularly during all three pregnancies), and emotionally withdrawn.

- Years ago she asked me if I would be willing to consider having a third, to which I reluctantly agreed.

- Now she tells me she wants a fourth....

We cannot afford the three we have and she feels guilty for being in an intense four year (or more) program. Our household is extreme chaos. Despite having a full-time job, quite a bit of the parenting falls directly upon me. I simply do not think we (or at least I) can handle another baby. But today she tells me it's her "lifelong dream" of having another.

I'm fairly certain if I don't agree to it we'll divorce (she's said so). She says she cannot be with a man who does not put her first and is too selfish to make his wife's wishes a reality. She said if I don't consent she'll resent me for the rest of her life. On the other hand, if I do agree I don't see how we'll possibly make it. I would perhaps have some resentment for being pressured into a fourth. I don't trust her (we're working on it) on a few different levels. I just don't see how we could possibly survive; but then again, I thought this way before the third and we're "ok."

I do love my wife, but at times like this I'm incredibly upset. I've essentially been given an ultimatum, but I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't. This seems like complete madness to me and I'm very confused. She doesn't seem to want to allow me to be confused - apparently the answer is quite clear and it is a fourth baby.

Can anyone please offer advice? I'm particularly interested in hearing from the woman's point of view. Thank you very much.


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## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

I'm male, much older (61) and will yell DON'T. Your message gives all the reasons.

My first, ex wife (she was, is BPD) wanted a third kid when our marriage was already having problems because of her ailment, I got a vasectomy when she was on the pill, she knew, went to the urologist with me, didn't object at the time, several years later she raised the vasectomy and her never spoken objections as one of the many reasons she was always exceedingly angry. 

I wish you luck, with three kids under seven I can't imagine how hard a perfect marriage would be.

Mark


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Can I ask a question here? Why does she want another child? Your financial situation is not that good! 
Don't understand them!

And people are funny. they always say if you don't do this for me, I will resent you. How about if they do something for themselves and make themselves happy. 

Some people think that other people should provide them with happiness, they don't know that they themselves have to find happiness. Blaming others doesn't help the situation, only makes the other person feel bad and become more distant!!!!!!


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## Les Clue (Apr 8, 2008)

Well she used to suffer fairly severely from OCD, and she claims that the "hell of the OCD fog" during pregnancies kept her from "enjoying any of it." I'm not trying to disrespect the horrible symptoms of OCD or any other disorder, but to me that doesn't seem like a "good" reason to bring another human into this world. She also says that I was never there for her during the other three pregnancies and didn't get to experience a positive pregnancy; so that puts a lot of pressure on me to do it "right" the next time.

I agree with your assessment about making yourself happy, however if she really wants a fourth baby (and she does!), she obviously can't do it alone. Her argument about the lack of money is that in a handful of years we'll be a dual income family, therefore able to afford another mouth to feed.

I want to "prove" to her that I can give her what she wants, but I just don't feel like this is a good way to do it. But to her it's the only way!


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Still different people have different ways of thinking. I gave birth to my son alone. My ex wasn't there with me. It was not a good feeling. That is the most fragile moment of a woman's life. I never want to have it again. I don't blame him for not being there, but I never want to do something like this just because I want to do it right this time. Past has past, why do people live in the past? 

Why doesn't she do anything now to make your life positive, like being careful with money and look after the kids and satisfy your needs? 

A woman who doesn't know how to manage money can cause disaster for her family. 

Sounds like she has to learn a lot!!!


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Three kids are enough. In Taiwan, parents only want one child now since the pressure of raising a child is so heavy!


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## Crypsys (Apr 22, 2010)

Don't do it, adding a 4th is just going to cause more problems. It's not that you will have 4 kids (I have 4 kids) but that your marriage is on the rocks. If your marriage isn't on a solid foundation, one more child will just add that one more push to send everything crashing down.


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## Les Clue (Apr 8, 2008)

My head says "No!" and my heart says "Do it for her - and keeping the family together!" If I don't consent she will leave me as I will be showing her I can't give her "the most important thing in her lifetime." I don't want a divorce from her. I want to show her that what's important to her can be important to me. But by not having another baby, I will be "showing" her the exact opposite. Hence the complete confusion...


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

How can she think like this? Having a fourth child is the most important thing in her life? You are the most important thing in her life!!!! 
She'll leave you if you don't let her have another child? Didn't she get enough seeds from you?????

Just don't understand why some women are this funny. 

Please say no to her, so what? Don't let her manipulate you. She can't do anything. They like to threaten!!! If she is smart, will she be able to do anything right by leaving you??? Will she be able to have another child without you??????????


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Tell her you want to make her happy and care about what she's feeling and that you're willing to but under one condition, that the both of you wait until she's out of grad school (or some other time holder...six months, 1 year). Let her know that if she still feels the same then that you'll be excited to try then. This way she feels as if you're listening to her and she'll also have some time to re-evaluate the situation and work on each other as well.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

This is very similar to my situation to be honest, without the divorce thoughts though. I have always said to my DH, from the first date even, that I wanted 3 children. He said 2. We figured we could live with this difference and got married anyway.

So years down the track we have 2 young children. He's full time working, I'm a SAHM who also studies. We have to watch our budget very carefully.

Recently, I have started to get the urge to have another child, I don't know why, it has just hit me. I discussed it with DH, and he really feels that financially we would be much better off if we didn't have any more children, taking into consideration schooling etc in the future as well. Another big reason not to was that he feels we are good parents to 2 children, but that we'd only be adequate parents to 3. We wouldn't be able to devote the time to each child that they deserved. 

I agree with his points. There's no getting around the facts. More children is more financial strain, and less one on one time for each individual child. I love my children very much. They come first for me. Therefore, despite still feeling a pang everytime I see a newborn, I have decided to let the matter drop, and we won't have any more children.

I think your wife needs to stop focusing on herself, and start thinking realistically about the children she has right now. Their welfare should come first and foremost. If you can't afford another child, all your children will suffer for it. When you put the welfare of the children you have first, I call that love, not selfishness.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

I'm with everyone else on this one. I see all the reasons not to have another child and not even ONE reason in favor of her argument. Let's say you did have another child. What are you going to do when she demands a fifth? And a sixth? it sounds as though she is trying to fill a void in her life by adding more children. It's time to stop.


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## BlueEyedBeauty (Sep 27, 2010)

(Women here)

Okay,first I will have to say "What a _*******_​Sorry, I had to get that out before I let you, know where I stand on this... For one, my husband sure in the hell would not stand for being demand on what is going to be. Another thing your wife, she is very rude for only thinking of herself and herself only... You, as the working would know if you, are able to make it- you, know how she spends the money all the time on things she does not need. She, is only thinking of herself and that is it. She, is not even thinking of the baby she wants to have, after that it would be something else and thing again something else. That is how she is playing you. She knows she can say "If you, do not do this I am going to divorce you." she knows you will give in. I also know it is not her first time playing that line with you. So, you know that I am right on that..​


But really now days,​​it really would not be all that much more to have one more baby- if you are not making all that much money you can always get food stamps or go on WIC for the children. But, if I were you, I would tell her to think of the baby she wants to have and not of herself. You, are yourself though and you love her- you want to please her. Why, though would you allow her to walk all over you though and throw a divorce in your face if not doing something


Love is something very precious and she is​not really showing she has true love for you. She acts like she wants to rule you. Also what the hell is up with her cheating. That also is not something you would do if you are in love with someone. Loving your husband or whatever it may be you do not cheat- you give your whole self to that person and you do not go off with anyone else. When you are with that person you are giving your whole self not just half. That also goes for love- you either love them or you don't no way you can really be in love with two people. You would be drawly towards the other one and it may feel like love but nope it isn't. Your heart is either in one place or nowhere... That is a fact my friend. So, you remember what I said and now ask yourself "Is my wife really in love with me and does she really love me for who and what I am..."​

*

If she did she would not tell you what to do​*​


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

First things first.

WHat is this grad program that your woman is engaged in, leaving your home life in chaos, her uncontrollable spending, and some affair with a woman, on the third marriage councelor, and three young children and her demanding you give her a fourth? 

An this is not clear that your next step is to her to drop this grad program excuse and either get a job to pay for her share of the bills or to devote herself to her family full time and bring order to the chaos and stop the nonsense, or you will make sure her next contact is from your lawyer and seperation papers.

Do not let yourself be abused this way.

Do not let your woman's emotional whims run your family into the ground. 

For the sake of your children and for the sake of your own sanity, pull yourself together, stand for your own happiness, and from YOUR LEADERSHIP decide for yourself your vision of what your family will be and start being the good man to make your vision the reality.

This other business, to let your woman lead you to and fro from whim to emotoinal whim, this is only going to continue to bring misery and pain for your family. 

Do not for a minute to think to continue to do these same things you are doing will produce any better results.

INstead see what happens when you decide to take a stand for yourself, to take the steps to begin to make your own life as the good as you imagine it from your own leadership.

For the good man these things are always this one thing, to have the courage and mettle to make his vision the reality. Do not settle for anything less in this life!

I wish you well.


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## greeneyeddolphin (May 31, 2010)

Ok, here's the question: if circumstances were different, if your marriage were more stable, you had more money and could afford another child, and so on and so forth, would you want another child? If the answer is yes, then you tell her that when those circumstances exist, then and only then can you two have another child. If that is not enough for her, if compromise isn't good enough, then she's trying to be controlling and there's a major problem there. 

If your answer is no, that even under ideal conditions, you wouldn't want another child, then you have to tell her no. It's not fair to a new baby, or the ones you already have, or you, or even your wife, for you to have a child you don't want. If it means the end of your marriage...that would be truly sad and horrible, but it would be on her, not you.


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## Les Clue (Apr 8, 2008)

Thank you, everyone, and you all have very valid points. I don't believe I would want another child if circumstances were different, but I don't actually know because they're not - if that makes any sense. I do believe she has this absolute NEED to have another baby, and I do not understand why. But I know that many women (and some men as well) hit a certain age or moment in their lives where it just feels right. Perhaps that's where my wife is. But this moment does not feel right at all, considering the lack of marriage stability, money, time, etc. 

I was floored to read "breeze's" comment about wanting another child, considering her husband's points that seemed to make sense, and then drop the idea. This is something my wife would never do. She is a firm believer in if you want something, go and get it. She's incredibly driven and a very strong individual. And her argument would be that she will have an income in four or so years and that is our financial plan for the future. But that's planning on something right now that's non-existent.

And to "atruckersgirl's" point, I don't think (or I should say believe) that it would be on her if we split. If I say no to a fourth, she will leave me because I continue to show her that she (and her dreams) are not important to me; that I've always been, and always will be, selfish. Maybe there's some truth to that?? For years she has bombarded me with what's "right and wrong," and I've come to believe what she tells me, not what I'm feeling. So I'm truly confused as to whether or not I am really being a selfish jerk right now, or if I'm trying to be responsible or whatever.

I am really scared of making the wrong decision, and neither of them seems right. I guess I feel "my way" is right, but I know she feels the same way about hers.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

So what exactly do you manage or have a say in, in terms of your marriage? Sounds like she leads and you follow ... no matter what.

One might argue that she has proven an extremely ineffective leader.


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## ktilash (May 27, 2010)

Why not wait? Tell her when she is through with Grad School. That way you can enjoy the child more. Your not saying no to number 4, just waiting a few more years.


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## greeneyeddolphin (May 31, 2010)

Les Clue, let me clarify what I meant by it's on her. She keeps telling you that you don't support her and her dreams, that you continuously show her that they are not important to you. A woman who wants her marriage to work and feels that way would not simply keep telling you this and saying she will leave you if you don't have another child with her. That's like the old "if you love me, you'd have sex with me" ploy. 

If she truly felt that way, truly felt unimportant to you, she either would have already left you, or she would be getting you both into counseling to get you to hear her and understand her. 

What you describe here sounds to me like a woman who is simply determined to have her own way, or be done with it all, no matter what. The term "control freak" comes to mind, but I'm not entirely sure that fits either. My point is...marriage is about compromise and understanding. "Get me pregnant or I'm divorcing you" is neither of those, and if you stand up for yourself and your children and say "no, we can't afford another child right now" and she leaves you over it...that's her doing, and you can't feel guilty about that. You'd be doing what is best for your family.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Les Clue said:


> Thank you, everyone, and you all have very valid points. I don't believe I would want another child if circumstances were different, but I don't actually know because they're not - if that makes any sense. I do believe she has this absolute NEED to have another baby, and I do not understand why. But I know that many women (and some men as well) hit a certain age or moment in their lives where it just feels right. Perhaps that's where my wife is. But this moment does not feel right at all, considering the lack of marriage stability, money, time, etc.
> 
> I was floored to read "breeze's" comment about wanting another child, considering her husband's points that seemed to make sense, and then drop the idea. This is something my wife would never do. She is a firm believer in if you want something, go and get it. She's incredibly driven and a very strong individual. And her argument would be that she will have an income in four or so years and that is our financial plan for the future. But that's planning on something right now that's non-existent.
> 
> ...


Do you mind if I tell you that your wife lives in the past and in the future, but she doesn't live in the present. How come she is so sure that she'll be working FOUR years later. Many things can happen. And four years is so long. Why can't she let go of the past, and just focus on PRESENT. 

You have to let go of your past! And don't live in the future. You have to live for PRESENT. Manage to have a good life NOW.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Les Clue said:


> Thank you, everyone, and you all have very valid points. I don't believe I would want another child if circumstances were different, but I don't actually know because they're not - if that makes any sense. I do believe she has this absolute NEED to have another baby, and I do not understand why. But I know that many women (and some men as well) hit a certain age or moment in their lives where it just feels right. Perhaps that's where my wife is. But this moment does not feel right at all, considering the lack of marriage stability, money, time, etc.
> 
> I was floored to read "breeze's" comment about wanting another child, considering her husband's points that seemed to make sense, and then drop the idea. This is something my wife would never do. She is a firm believer in if you want something, go and get it. She's incredibly driven and a very strong individual. And her argument would be that she will have an income in four or so years and that is our financial plan for the future. But that's planning on something right now that's non-existent.
> 
> ...


I don't see her actions as those of a 'strong' person. I see them as truly selfish. She's determined to have what she wants, and to hell with everyone else, including you and your children. She sounds like a spoilt brat. The spoilt little girl in 'Charlie and the Chocolate Factory' comes to mind. The reasons being:

1) She doesn't feel you have a right to have any opinion on this, she's completely disregarding the fact that you have an equal say. 

2) She's irresponsible with money. Also, she can't guarantee that she'll have a job in 4 years.

3) She doesn't seem to care about the financial impact that having another child will have on your 3 children. When do their needs come into her thinking?

4) I bet her time is already extemely streched as it is in parenting 3 children and studying, but she wants to bring a newborn into it the mix as well. I bet something will have to give, and I would bet it's the care of your first three children.

5) To get what she wants she would trample all over your family, and if she doesn't get what she wants, she would destroy the family unit. That's selfish in the exteme. Does she even care how that would effect your 3 children?

6) With her completely self centered outlook, I have to wonder at her reasons for having another child. I think she's trying to avoid facing a marriage that is in trouble by having another child, in effect, USING children to avoid the extremely hard work of becoming a better person, a better wife, a better mother.


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## AWife (Sep 25, 2010)

I agree with everyone who says no. I think a compromise would be a good thing. When she's done with school or when the marriage is more stable or whatever. Who knows, she may just want another baby to fill a different need and not realize it. When your marriage is stronger or when she's working and more satisified with herself she may change her mind. I kind of agree with not giving her a firm no but only you can really answer that. I have five. I didn't need and couldn't afford them. I do love them dearly and couldn't imagine my life without them. We've always managed just fine.


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## Jorcky (Oct 2, 2010)

It would be really unfair on your current children, and the fourth child, to let your wife have her way. She needs to grow the **** up and learn to deal with the children she has, which is not done by spending constantly, and threatening their father.
She needs to be grateful for what she has and work on your marriage and her issues, and then WHEN you become a dual income family, if your marriage has stabilized, discuss having another child.
Sorry for the language, but some people don't have husbands as loving as you, and can't have children at all, and it really annoys me to hear about someone so selfish and childish that they don't even know how lucky they already are.


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