# seperated 4 months



## stuart

My wife left me 4 months ago saying she needed a deeper emotional life and to always be treated with respect, not only when I was on my good behavior.we are together 26 years, married 17 and have a 12 yr old daughter.She wants to work on a seperation agreement because she doesn't trust me, she hasn't even given me her address. I know I drank too much, was controlling, critical, negative, etc. Since she left me I stopped drinking, am in therapy and am treating her respectfully. Shs has said she is open to some sort of relationship in the future but cannot promise anything, she doesnt know how she will heal. She sends me funny emails sometimes and we are getting along, we are in contact a lot because of transfering my daughter. I love my wife and will do anything to be with her in a new healthy way. Any suggestions, I am still depressed and having a hard time.


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## cdbaker

A few questions:

I've gotta ask, do you believe your wife is being completely honest with you? Is it possible that she's involved in some way with another man (Emotionally, physically, "bestie" friends, etc.)? Has she ever cheated on you before, via EA or PA? Was there any odd behavior prior to her moving out?

By "Separation agreement" I assume you mean a genuine "Legal Separation" and not just a marriage counseling style conduct agreement, right? (Those are always important if a separation of any kind is inevitable) If so, what is her reasoning for wanting the legal separation now? Why now vs. four months ago when she first left? A legal separation, just so you understand, is basically a divorce except in name, so that's a pretty big escalation. Also, has she said why she doesn't want you to know where she lives? (Is it possible she's living with someone else?)

You allude to a few of your failings/problems personally, but can you expand that a bit? Were you a daily alcoholic? Were you ever physically abusive? Were you prone to yelling/cursing at her a lot, or just losing your temper? In what ways did your "controlling" behavior manifest? Have you ever cheated on her, via EA or PA? How was the sex life?

Regarding your comment about her being "open to some sort of relationship in the future but can't promise anything" has it ever been determined that one possible future is the both of you reconciling in full in a rebuilt, loving and committed marriage? Sometimes a wayward wife might say something like that, but its often just another way of saying, "I'm open to us just being friends in the future."

"I love my wife and will do anything to be with her in a new healthy way." While you may genuinely mean this, it is usually best to not let your separated partner know this unless you are the one primarily responsible for the separation, like if you cheated on her, lost your temper and became physical with her, etc. Eventually, even if no one did anything dramatically wrong (like adultery, physical violence, long term emotional abuse, etc.), you eventually have to make a decision that you can't wait forever and be willing to show him/her that you can move on without.


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## stuart

I am sure there is no man at this time, she never cheated, she just gave up hope that i would change. She wanted a legal seperation 4 months ago but it has taken time to get together because she is not settled, this is hurting her a lot too. She said she wants it so something is concrete, it would still give me a year before it could be divorce so i have that time to somehow reconcile even though she is not willing at this time. She hasnt told me where she lives because it is close by and wants her space to heal and doesnt trust that i wont just drop and i believe this is true. I think by relationship in the future it means being together as she has already said she needs to be just friends right now. I do believe my behavior is the main reason as i have promised to change many times but always went back to my old behaviors. I was too critical,negative,judgemental, financially controlling and drank too much, not every day but too much. She has said that i am doing good work now and that it is great but she still doesnt trust me yet. I do believe i have finally woken up after losing my family and that i will never go back to what i was weather or not we get back together. So what do I do to get her to reconsider and work with me, as i said i have a year. I will keep changing for the better and she will see that but how do i reconect with her. I have been too needy, apologetic and have promised to change during the seperation but i now know this is hurting my chances and have stopped. We are getting along when we communicate and she has initiated contace by sending me funny emails. How do i reconect with her, I know i need to be patient and so I am not ready to move on, I truly love my wife and want to do whatever it takes to be together while there still might be a chance.


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## stuart

Also i was never physically abusive, but i was angry a lot. I never cheated on her but i dont think she fully believes this. I was closed off a lot of the times emotionally as well. I was financially controlling. The sex life was ok, it could have been better. A lot of my problem stem from never resolving issues from my childhood, and she is to blame for our interactions too but not as much as me.


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## Chaparral

Look up day one's thread. It starts out just like yours and he's doing great.


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## Chaparral

Here's a link, he is also in the reconciliation section having moved from separation and divorce.
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/reconciliation/221290-day-one.html


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## stuart

Thank you, some of it is similar. Im afraid I posted in wrong section as it should be separation, as only I want to reconcile at this time. How would a 180 work for me, I think being respectful to my wife, and communicating more would be a 180. How would it be possible to have no contact anyway with a 12 year old that goes back and forth. My wife and kid also take a tkd class on nights she is with me and so we can see each other 4 times a week. We also email, sometimes for logistics but she has emailed me with funny links she thinks I will like and we have talked about movies and such, the way we did when we first met. Isnt the contact a good thing, a way to reconnect and start over. We were together for a long time so it could take a long time if we do reconcile. I know my wife is hurting, she has told me she is down. hasn't slept well, she truly wants to heal and I do believe her when she says she is open to something in the future. She really doesn't trust that I can change becaused of all the promises in the past, so it will take time for her to believe.


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## stuart

Thank you, some of it is similar. Im afraid I posted in wrong section as it should be separation, as only I want to reconcile at this time. How would a 180 work for me, I think being respectful to my wife, and communicating more would be a 180. How would it be possible to have no contact anyway with a 12 year old that goes back and forth. My wife and kid also take a tkd class on nights she is with me and so we can see each other 4 times a week. We also email, sometimes for logistics but she has emailed me with funny links she thinks I will like and we have talked about movies and such, the way we did when we first met. Isnt the contact a good thing, a way to reconnect and start over. We were together for a long time so it could take a long time if we do reconcile. I know my wife is hurting, she has told me she is down. hasn't slept well, she truly wants to heal and I do believe her when she says she is open to something in the future. She really doesn't trust that I can change because of all the promises in the past, so it will take time for her to believe.


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## Chaparral

The biggest thing is day one found a good counselor. It sounds like your wife isn't as far gone as day ones wife was.

You need to find a counselor for what causes your anger and depression with help for your drinking. Also joining a gym and sticking with it shows you can change. You have to be confident in your therapist too. If your not clicking with him find another.

Are you allowed to date your wife?


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## Chaparral

Is your wife in therapy too?

Are you spending anytime together?


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## stuart

I think she is pretty far gone. I am happy with my therapist and do know what most of the problems stem from, the drinking thing is funny, it feels as if something turned off inside of me and I don't think I will go back, im not being naïve as I know it will be a process for the rest of my life but im confident. My wife is not currently in therapy, I believe she is at the point where she thinks shes doing the right thing, but my behavior changes might be making it difficult for her and now maybe she feels guilty and conflicted. She thought I would react like I used to, being angry, maybe worse than usual. I think being loving to her is making it harder for her. For me to be loving and respectful during the hardest part of my marriage is a 180 and I think she sees this but is still not trusting it. She knows im not drinking, she knows im now seeing a therapist after never wanting to and she sees how im treating her better, all these things are big changes, I just think it needs more time. We have hung out as a family with my daughter on a few occasions, but I have become to pushy and needy as far as wanting her to work with me and so she now is probably reluctant to spend time with me, I think it needs more time and so I wont ask her, I think it has to come from her next. Her wanting to do something together or asking me to her place is a victory I am shooting for at this time. Thank you so much for your responses, it really does help.


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## Chaparral

I don't have a link on this tablet but google "the healing heart 180". Read it carefully. It will help you detach and can have rpthe effect of drawing a wife back in. She sees you being independent and starts wanting what she can't have.

It is totally going to backfire if you chase her. Get the mmslp book linked to below and it will explain the whole thing.

Are you working out?

Have you checked to see if there is someone else?


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## Chaparral

The Sixteen Commandments Of Poon
I. Never say ‘I Love You’ first

Women want to feel like they have to overcome obstacles to win a man’s heart. They crave the challenge of capturing the interest of a man who has other women competing for his attention, and eventually prevailing over his grudging reluctance to award his committed exclusivity. The man who gives his emotional world away too easily robs women of the satisfaction of earning his love. Though you may be in love with her, don’t say it before she has said it. Show compassionate restraint for her need to struggle toward yin fulfillment. Inspire her to take the leap for you, and she’ll return the favor a thousandfold.

II. Make her jealous

Flirt with other women in front of her. Do not dissuade other women from flirting with you. Women will never admit this but jealousy excites them. The thought of you turning on another woman will arouse her sexually. No girl wants a man that no other woman wants. The partner who harnesses the gale storm of jealousy controls the direction of the relationship.

III. You shall make your mission, not your woman, your priority

Forget all those romantic cliches of the leading man proclaiming his undying love for the woman who completes him. Despite whatever protestations to the contrary, women do not want to be “The One” or the center of a man’s existence. They in fact want to subordinate themselves to a worthy man’s life purpose, to help him achieve that purpose with their feminine support, and to follow the path he lays out. You must respect a woman’s integrity and not lie to her that she is “your everything”. She is not your everything, and if she is, she will soon not be anymore.

IV. Don’t play by her rules

If you allow a woman to make the rules she will resent you with a seething contempt even a rapist cannot inspire. The strongest woman and the most strident feminist wants to be led by, and to submit to, a more powerful man. Polarity is the core of a healthy loving relationship. She does not want the prerogative to walk all over you with her capricious demands and mercurial moods. Her emotions are a hurricane, her soul a saboteur. Think of yourself as a bulwark against her tempest. When she grasps for a pillar to steady herself against the whipping winds or yearns for an authority figure to foil her worst instincts, it is you who has to be there… strong, solid, unshakeable and immovable.

V. Adhere to the golden ratio

Give your woman 2/3 of everything she gives you. For every three calls or texts, give her two back. Three declarations of love earn two in return. Three gifts; two nights out. Give her two displays of affection and stop until she has answered with three more. When she speaks, you reply with fewer words. When she emotes, you emote less. The idea behind the golden ratio is twofold — it establishes your greater value by making her chase you, and it demonstrates that you have the self-restraint to avoid getting swept up in her personal dramas. Refraining from reciprocating everything she does for you in equal measure instills in her the proper attitude of belief in your higher status. In her deepest loins it is what she truly wants.

VI. Keep her guessing

True to their inscrutable natures, women ask questions they don’t really want direct answers to. Woe be the man who plays it straight — his fate is the suffering of the beta. Evade, tease, obfuscate. She thrives when she has to imagine what you’re thinking about her, and withers when she knows exactly how you feel. A woman may want financial and family security, but she does not want passion security. In the same manner, when she has displeased you, punish swiftly, but when she has done you right, reward slowly. Reward her good behavior intermittently and unpredictably and she will never tire of working hard to please you.

VII. Always keep two in the kitty

Never allow yourself to be a “kept man”. A man with options is a man without need. It builds confidence and encourages boldness with women if there is another woman, a safety net, to catch you in case you slip and risk a breakup, divorce, or a lost prospect, leading to loneliness and a grinding dry spell. A woman knows once she has slept with a man she has abdicated a measure of her power; when she has fallen in love with him she has surrendered nearly all of it. But love is ephemeral and with time she may rediscover her power and threaten to leave you. It is her final trump card. Withdrawing all her love and all her body in an instant will rend your soul if you are faced with contemplating the empty abyss alone. Knowing there is another you can turn to for affection will fortify your will and satisfy your manhood.

VIII. Say you’re sorry only when absolutely necessary

Do not say you’re sorry for every wrong thing you do. It is a posture of submission that no man should reflexively adopt, no matter how alpha he is. Apologizing increases the demand for more apologies. She will come to expect your contrition, like a cat expects its meal at a set time each day. And then your value will lower in her eyes. Instead, if you have done something wrong, you should acknowledge your guilt in a glancing way without resorting to the actual words “I’m sorry.” Pull the Bill Clinton maneuver and say “Mistakes were made” or tell her you “feel bad” about what you did. You are granted two freebie “I’m sorry”s for the life of your relationship; use them wisely.

IX. Connect with her emotions

Set yourself apart from other men and connect with a woman’s emotional landscape. Her mind is an alien world that requires deft navigation to reach your rendevous. Frolic in the surf of emotions rather than the arid desert of logic. Be playful. Employ all your senses. Describe in lush detail scenarios to set her heart afire. Give your feelings freedom to roam. ROAM. Yes, that is a good word. You’re not on a linear path with her. You are ROAMING all over, taking her on an adventure. In this world, there is no need to finish thoughts or draw conclusions. There is only need to EXPERIENCE. You’re grabbing her hand and running with her down an infinite, labyrinthine alleyway with no end, laughing and letting your fingers glide on the cobblestone walls along the way.

X. Ignore her beauty

The man who trains his mind to subdue the reward centers of his brain when reflecting upon a beautiful female face will magically transform his interactions with women. His apprehension and self-consciousness will melt away, paving the path for more honest and self-possessed interactions with the objects of his desire. This is one reason why the greatest lotharios drown in more love than they can handle — through positive experiences with so many beautiful women they lose their awe of beauty and, in turn, their powerlessness under its spell. It will help you acquire the right frame of mind to stop using the words hot, cute, gorgeous, or beautiful to describe girls who turn you on. Instead, say to yourself “she’s interesting” or “she might be worth getting to know”. Never compliment a girl on her looks, especially not a girl you aren’t ****ing. Turn off that part of your brain that wants to put them on pedestals. Further advanced training to reach this state of unawed Zen transcendence is to sleep with many MANY attractive women (try to avoid sleeping with a lot of ugly women if you don’t want to regress). Soon, a Jedi lover you will be.

XI. Be irrationally self-confident

No matter what your station in life, stride through the world without apology or excuse. It does not matter if objectively you are not the best man a woman can get; what matters is that you think and act like you are. Women have a dog’s instinct for uncovering weakness in men; don’t make it easy for them. Self-confidence, warranted or not, triggers submissive emotional responses in women. Irrational self-confidence will get you more ***** than rational defeatism.

XII. Maximize your strengths, minimize your weaknesses

In the betterment of ourselves as men we attract women into our orbit. To accomplish this gravitational pull as painlessly and efficiently as possible, you must identify your natural talents and shortcomings and parcel your efforts accordingly. If you are a gifted jokester, don’t waste time and energy trying to raise your status in philosophical debate. If you write well but dance poorly, don’t kill yourself trying to expand your manly influence on the dancefloor. Your goal should be to attract women effortlessly, so play to your strengths no matter what they are; there is a groupie for every male endeavor. Except World of Warcraft.

XIII. Err on the side of too much boldness, rather than too little

Touching a woman inappropriately on the first date will get you further with her than not touching her at all. Don’t let a woman’s faux indignation at your boldness sway you; they secretly love it when a man aggressively pursues what he wants and makes his sexual intentions known. You don’t have to be an *******, but if you have no choice, being an inconsiderate ******* beats being a polite beta, every time.

XIV. **** her good

**** her like it’s your last ****. And hers. **** her so good, so hard, so wantonly, so profligately that she is left a quivering, sparking mass of shaking flesh and sex fluids. Drain her of everything, then drain her some more. Kiss her all over, make love to her all night, and hold her close in the morning. Own her body, own her gratitude, own her love. If you don’t know how, learn to give her squirting orgasms.

XV. Maintain your state control

You are an oak tree. You will not be manipulated by crying, yelling, lying, head games, sexual withdrawal, jealousy ploys, pity plays, **** tests, hot/cold/hot/cold, disappearing acts, or guilt trips. She will rain and thunder all around you and you will shelter her until her storm passes. She will not drag you into her chaos or uproot you. When you have mastery over yourself, you will have mastery over her.

XVI. Never be afraid to lose her

You must not fear. Fear is the love-killer. Fear is the ego-triumph that brings abject loneliness. You will face your fear. You will permit it to pass over and through you. And when your ego-fear is gone you will turn and face your lover, and only your heart will remain. You will walk away from her when she has violated your integrity, and you will let her walk when her heart is closed to you. She who can destroy you, controls you. Don’t give her that power over yourself. Love yourself before you love her.

***

The closer you follow the letter of these commandments, the easier you will find and keep real, true unconditional love and happiness in your life.

Best,

Your Lord and King


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## Chaparral

Did you read day one's whole thread?

You need to encourage your wife to get therapy too. Tell her how well its working for you and you believe it would help her to no matter what happens to the two of you in the future. If she felt she had to leave she no doubt has issues that needs worked out.


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## stuart

So this morning when wife came to pick up the kid we were friendly, she borrowed a mouse trap and when she left my car wouldnt start, had to call her and ask her to come back to drive me to therapy appt. I walked to work where i am now but she is going to the house to feed the dog because i dont have a car now. She still has house key, should I ask for it back, I dont even know her address, and i am 100% sure she is not with anyone. Also she has the new car we bought last year, what should I do about this. As per her request we will be doing a legal seperation soon, and can deal with car issues then. I get a lot of the 180, but i dont get how to reconect with her if the contact is only about finances and the child. Should i let her do favors for me like taking care of the dog and drive me or should i suck it up and figure something else out.


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## Chaparral

Look how day one did it.

The first thing you have to realize is that a big majority of separations lead to divorce. If you can win her back you have to avoid being needy and work on yourself.

Working on yourself is a win win. If you get back with your wife you will be a better partner. If you end up with someone else you will be a better partner.

Are you saying she refuses to go out on a date with you up to this point. Or is she just saying someday you can be friends?

Has she given you the .........I love you but I'm not in love with you speech?


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## stuart

when she first left she said i love you, i will always love you, and i will miss you, but i now believe you cant give me what i need which is a deeper emotional life, etc what i said in my first post. When i was needy earlier on she said i need to take it back several notches and what she needs now is to be just friends. So no she doesnt want to date, not even hang out, should i ask her or will this push her away.


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## stuart

right now I feel like im walking on eggshells, I don't want to push her away, but I want to reconnect so how to I communicate with her when we don't have a lot of communication.


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## FormerVictim

stuart said:


> right now I feel like im walking on eggshells, I don't want to push her away, but I want to reconnect so how to I communicate with her when we don't have a lot of communication.


By being awesome.


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## Love4Mywife

stuart said:


> I want to reconnect so how to I communicate with her when we don't have a lot of communication.


Simple.. Don't.. I noticed you have a child so you can't go full NC, but go as LC as you possibly can.. DO NOT talk about anything that isn't related to offspring or ongoing financial matters.. Don't get involved in an idle chit chat.. I'm not saying be a cold, angry a'hole but rather only give out the info you need.. No more, no less.. 

NC works in a couple of ways.. None of which are punishing your spouse.. Firstly, it gives you a chance to sort yourself out and get stronger.. Secondly, your W might start to miss what she and come back full steam.. Who knows..

Do as the others such as Chap have said.. Get out there and work on yourself.. Detach from her.. I'm not saying stop loving her, I'm saying don't get yourself dragged in to her sh1t.. Make your own path..

Another tip, fake it until it becomes real.. Especially around your W.. Don't cling, be needy or bring up the R until your W does.. Make sure there is true remorse IF she decides to come back, and even then make HER seduce YOU.. Don't go soft and let her run back with your arms wide and your c*ck hard without major effort from her part..

Lastly, prep yourself for OM.. I'm not saying she has cheated etc but steel yourself for WHEN it does happen..


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## Love4Mywife

stuart said:


> She said she wants it so something is concrete, it would still give me a year before it could be divorce so i have that time to somehow reconcile even though she is not willing at this time.
> 
> I am not ready to move on, I truly love my wife and want to do whatever it takes to be together while there still might be a chance.


I've cut your comment down to these points, and I know where you are with these thoughts..

I'm in a similar situation with timeframe and the best thing you can do is let TIME do what it is going to do.. You can't do anything at the moment anyway.. Basically, your M is dead.. Trust me, I had to get my head around this as well but when you do, you will be in a better place..


Second point.. You want to even have a 1% shot at getting her back??.. MOVE ON.. I get it, you truly love your wife.. I love my WAW too but where has your love got you so far in your S??.. Nowhere, same as me..

A LOT of vets on here told me to date.. I'll pass that advice on to you.. No one is saying forget your wife, stop loving her or jump in to your next marriage.. Go for a walk in the park, talk to that cute jogger you see and then ask her for a coffee.. Got a positive answer??.. Then go to the coffee shop across the road and have one.. Say thanks and I'll see you around after it is done.. See, date without "date"..


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## stuart

I realize it takes two, but the seperation is mostly due to my behavior, so dont I have to show my wife I am changing, Dont interactions where im respectful show this. The m is dead, so isnt getting along with her now the start of something new maybe. I know she misses me as she initiates contace with me. There is no om now, there could be one day, but I know my wife and she wants to be by herself right now. I was selfish for a long time and she needs to be now.


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## DayOne

Stuart, welcome and also sorry that you're here. The advice i have to give you is to NOT think about reconciliation. 

But don't panic. I'm not saying there isn't a chance of "R", but for right now, you have to focus on you. Not her, not "us". You.

By your own admission you have made a mess of it. Not judging, god knows i'm in the same place. But now is the time for you to work on the why and the what. Give her her space, she needs it. 

Get into counselling, work through your issues. If you're serious about it, and you are prepared to work your a$$ off, you'll change. For the better. No matter if you end up with her or alone, you'll be a better man for the work you put in. 

But, if and when you change, improve, don't make the mistake of telling her you've changed. At this point she won't believe your words, only your actions. Let her see it, believe in it, trust in it. 

Right now her shields are up, protecting herself. You won't force your way back through them. You have to wait, until she feels safe enough to slowly let them down. And expect them to go up and down for a long time after that. 

Spend that time wisely. Get the self help books for men, "No More Mr Nice Guy" and "Hold on to your N.U.T.s". Get to the gym (if you don't already), it's a great stress reliever and distraction as well as improving you physically and emotionally. See a counsellor. Write down how you are feeling, what you're going through. And spend time here. 

A word of warning though. There are a lot of good, honest, helpful people on TAM. Seek them out. But there also a lot of "burn victims", of both genders, who may give you less than helpful 'advice'. Learn which is which. 

I wish you the best of luck. D1


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## stuart

I am in counseljng now for my issues and my wife knows it I have also stopped drinking which was a problem. My wife said she knows i am doing good work, but she still needs the legal seperation to feel safe, as she doesnt yet trust these changes as I have promised many times I would change in the past. I will only show changes by my actions now and this is what is confusing me. In the past I have been too selfish and so doesnt contact with her allow her to see I am changing, to show I care about her needs. I am giving her space and she said I have been good regarding this, but because of the child and finances we still are in contact a lot. She also works full time, I worked around her schedule and so we are helping each other with the logistics. Why though is showing an interest in her day, work, hobbies bad if it is something I didnt do before then it is a 180 to be interested and caring. I am letting her make the initial contact eve though on my own I am not really moving on as well as I should. She expected me to react differently to act differently to her leaving, be very angry and controlling, but I have been loving, I was needy but have stopped, and I think she is conflicted.


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## DayOne

stuart said:


> I am in counselling now for my issues and my wife knows it I have also stopped drinking which was a problem. My wife said she knows i am doing good work, but she still needs the legal separation to feel safe, as she doesn't yet trust these changes as I have promised many times I would change in the past. I will only show changes by my actions now and this is what is confusing me. In the past I have been too selfish and so doesn't contact with her allow her to see I am changing, to show I care about her needs. I am giving her space and she said I have been good regarding this, but because of the child and finances we still are in contact a lot. She also works full time, I worked around her schedule and so we are helping each other with the logistics. Why though is showing an interest in her day, work, hobbies bad if it is something I didn't do before then it is a 180 to be interested and caring. I am letting her make the initial contact eve though on my own I am not really moving on as well as I should. She expected me to react differently to act differently to her leaving, be very angry and controlling, but I have been loving, I was needy but have stopped, and I think she is conflicted.


Have a think about that. It's exactly what I and others have mentioned. She won't trust your words, only your actions. And if you've "promised many times to change" in the past, and then let her down over and over again, the chances of her believing that "this time it'll be different" are greatly reduced. 

Again, not judging. I've been there. I've made the same mistakes. As have many others here. Men and Women. 

And it's not promise you should make. Not to her, and not to yourself. Commit to DOING it, yes, but don't make promises you may not be able to meet. 

I don't know your situation, or how you interact with your Wife, but my suggestion is this: Sit her down, explain to her that you "are not willing to give up on us", but that you need some time to focus on working on yourself. That you're not pulling away from her, but that you're pulling towards yourself. That you both need time to heal and work on your issues. 

NC, as mentioned previously, isn't appropriate when there are kids involved. So find a modified LC that works for you, and her. To be honest, NC was almost the final nail in our coffin at the beginning. 

Accept that, right now, you're not a Husband, to her. Be there for the kids. Love the kids. And love yourself. Give her the space she needs to get her head straight. Don't crowd, don't beg, don't be needy (even if you say you have stopped). 

You won't "win her back". She has to decide that you're worth being with again. Focus solely on yourself (and the kids). Be better. Grow. 

And, although this may not be the best way of thinking about it, if she doesn't see you, talk to you so often, the times that she does between intervals will (hopefully) see you improve a bit further each time. She will see it, as long as you stay the course.


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## DayOne

stuart said:


> Should i let her do favors for me like taking care of the dog and drive me or should i suck it up and figure something else out.


How were you about asking for, or accepting, help before "D-Day"? Speaking for myself, one of her issues was that I would almost always refuse her help. It made her feel shut out, excluded, kept at a distance.


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## stuart

I am definitely committed to change, and to do it for myself, it is a long time coming. The interactions with my wife now are friendly, calm weather its about the child, money or just chit-chat. In some ways it feels like we are building something new, but it could be just wishful thinking on my part. We have said we would be there to support each other when needed, I watched the kid on a day she was supposed to but couldn't because of work for example. As for favors I let her do things for me, she liked to, but I probably relied on her too much.


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## stuart

Has anyone tried any of the marriage progrmas or coaching, like Jack Ito and did it help. A commom theme is to try to reattract or spouse so she desires to want to work with you.


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## DayOne

Stop it. Seriously. Stop trying to "re-attract" her, to win her back. Stop thinking about her, and what she needs. It really doesn't work that way. 

Sort yourself out. Fix your own issues. Own what you have done, resolve to better yourself. She WILL see it. Then see what happens. 

We (Mrs and I) made the same mistakes. We kept going to MC, trying to fix the marriage. The marriage wasn't the issue, it was our own selves. Now we've figured that out, and are doing working on our own individual issues, the marriage is healing itself.


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## Chaparral

From here it looks like you're diving a stake through the heart of your marriage.

You're running on fear and trying to fix things quickly. There is no magic bullet.

Have you bought the mmslp book yet?


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## stuart

At this point i am just trying to figure out how to intreact with her since we do have contact because of the child, the house and finances. I am letting her initiate the contact and am no longer trying to convince her of anything. I am not promising, apologizing, or talking about myself, I am just listening. She had said at one point that it would have to be a new beginning, and so why can't that start now.


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## stuart

Day one- tomorrow my kid has a school concert and my wife and I are both going, she asked if she could park by the house and walk to the school together since it is by the house and parking would be easier that way. We would sit together at the concert and thus be talking. I still cant wrap my head around interacting with my wife to show her I am changing while I am working on myself. I am starting to get that there is no working on the marriage now, and that if there was it would be some time before that could happen, but why cant starting over happen slowly from here on.


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## Chaparral

Reconcile yourself to the fact this is going to take months if it happens at all. It can't start now because it takes time for her to regain trust. If you push you will fail.


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## stuart

That i have done, I know it will take many months if at all, trust is big, she has to see me change and belive it and it has to be consistent and over a long time. By new beginning I mean that the interactions are showing the changes I am making so she does begin to trust a little at a time. I don't want a quick fix, I know she isn't coming back now and resuming where we left off. Being friends with her like someone might be in the beginning is not pushing, its a new start maybe.


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## cdbaker

DayOne and Chapperal have it right. Re-read what they wrote again and again. 

Then re-read your posts. Almost every single line is about her. Trying to figure out how to interact with HER, letting HER initiate this or that, not sure how to show HER that you are changing, etc. etc. etc., just in your last few posts!

What you should be talking about is how you are purely concerned with yourself and your son. You shouldn't be concerned with what she is feeling, what she is doing, what she thinks about this or that or how she'll respond or how you'll get through to her or what she'll do about it. No we aren't saying that you literally shouldn't say a single word to her, or run away as soon as you see her or answer her phone calls. You keep mentioning how you have to "interact" with her because of your child, like drop-offs and pick-up's, school events, etc. Of course you do, but you don't have to converse with her, or plan how to show off to her, etc. 

It basically means you treat her as if she just isn't at all important in your life anymore. That doesn't mean you treat her negatively, it just means you're short and cordial, that's it. If she asks if she can park at your house to walk with you and your child to the school, then if you think it's something your child would appreciate then simply say yes, and just talk with your child on the way there. If you feel you need to sit next to her for your child's sake, then do so, but there's no need to converse or chit-chat. Just take in the sight of the school or play a game on your phone. When she leaves, either say nothing at all or just a simple goodbye, that's it. If she calls you, answer the phone (not too quickly if possible) and simply answer her questions as simply and directly as possible. Yes, no, I'll let you know, etc. That's it.

Other than that, just focus on yourself and your child. Work out, clean the house, fix up the things that need fixing, take care of the yard, go to church, make plans with friends to go out and have fun when your child is with your wife, etc.. Find enjoyment and fulfillment elsewhere in life. All of these steps will be good for you, help you recover, and make you far more desirable to any woman, INCLUDING your wife. The difference is, you aren't doing it FOR your wife, but for yourself. Believe me, she will know if you are just trying to impress her or convince her that you've changed. She's seen it/heard it before, and as soon as she thinks it's all for her, she won't be able to respect any of your efforts for even a moment.

Also, read the books that have been suggested to you, especially the MMSLP. And again, seriously, stop fretting over everything about her unless you just want to torpedo any remaining possible chance your marriage has to survive.


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## DayOne

I don't think that MMSLP is the right book for OP. Too much emphasis on the wrong principles in his case. I'd suggest "No More Mr Nice Guy", and "Hold On to your N.U.Ts". More focussed on addressing his own issues, not on 'appearing' to be something to his waw.


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## jld

DayOne said:


> I don't think that MMSLP is the right book for OP. Too much emphasis on the wrong principles in his case. I'd suggest "No More Mr Nice Guy", and "Hold On to your N.U.Ts". *More focussed on addressing his own issues, not on 'appearing' to be something to his waw*.


Amen.


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## cdbaker

DayOne said:


> I don't think that MMSLP is the right book for OP. Too much emphasis on the wrong principles in his case. I'd suggest "No More Mr Nice Guy", and "Hold On to your N.U.Ts". More focussed on addressing his own issues, not on 'appearing' to be something to his waw.


Yep, that's a good point. I think there is a lot of cross-over there with MMSLP with NMMNG, but I haven't read Hold on to your NUTs yet. Since the OP is so tremendously focused on his wife and is likely mostly ignoring posts that urge him to not focus on his wife, I was thinking that it might help the OP to understand how incredibly unattractive his behavior is right now, and how he can turn that around, which I mostly remember the MMSLP being very good at.


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## turnera

stuart said:


> At this point i am just trying to figure out how to interact with her since we do have contact because of the child, the house and finances.


As a similar wife who would like to separate because of my H's negativity, if I did leave, I would want to see you being respectful, NEVER blaming me for anything (unless I was out and out wrong), telling me what you're learning in therapy, showing me what you're learning by doing things differently in all aspects of your life (you can tell me of examples), asking occasionally for the chance to have lunch (once a month or so) so you could show me the new you, asking me to fill out a Love Buster questionnaire so I can be specific about what it was that you did that drove me away and so you can start working on removing ALL those bad habits, and finally, talking to me like a FRIEND. Not someone you want to screw or get back, but a real, live person who you treat with as much respect as you do your guy friends. What I mean by that is that I can guarantee that you didn't chew out your friends, you didn't call them names, you didn't criticize them or blame things on them - you showed them respect in order to keep their friendship; I'd want to see the same thing from you.


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## cdbaker

turnera said:


> As a similar wife who would like to separate because of my H's negativity, if I did leave, I would want to see you being respectful, NEVER blaming me for anything (unless I was out and out wrong), telling me what you're learning in therapy, showing me what you're learning by doing things differently in all aspects of your life (you can tell me of examples), asking occasionally for the chance to have lunch (once a month or so) so you could show me the new you, asking me to fill out a Love Buster questionnaire so I can be specific about what it was that you did that drove me away and so you can start working on removing ALL those bad habits, and finally, talking to me like a FRIEND. Not someone you want to screw or get back, but a real, live person who you treat with as much respect as you do your guy friends. What I mean by that is that I can guarantee that you didn't chew out your friends, you didn't call them names, you didn't criticize them or blame things on them - you showed them respect in order to keep their friendship; I'd want to see the same thing from you.


I very rarely disagree with you Turnera, and your advice is probably solid for a couple who is separated but still mutually holding hope for the marriage alone. (Meaning there is no one else in the picture) When facing a wife in the affair fog however, even the friendly stuff you mention will all be viewed as a weakness, pathetic, desperate, etc. Like telling her what he's learning in therapy, asking her out for an occasional date, asking her to fill out a love buster quiz, etc. I think all of this could be perfectly decent advice for another thread, for a different couple, but would actually make things worse here.


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## turnera

What affair fog? Did I miss an affair?


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## stuart

First I want to thank everyone for helping, my mind is definetely mush right now. I know for sure my wife is not with anyone else, she respects herself too much, and really wants to heal and move on to something better, I want that something better to be us in a healthy, loving relationship, she needs to heal and thus is thinking about herself now as she was never selfish. I read the first chapter of nmmng and it seems in our relationship she was the nice guy. I was the drunk, selfish bad guy and although some of my problems are similar I think they come from somewhere else. The points that tunera is raising is what I am thinking, to be her friend, to be there for her, to be respectful is a 180 for me. To keep working on myself honestly is what I want to do for myself, but I dont see how if this is true change it would turn turn my wife off. She might not believe it for some time, but if it is true it will be consistent, come off real, and maybe will help our situation. One thing she said when she left was that she needs to be with someone that always respects her, not just when hes on good behavior. Too not be her friend now, when that is what she says she really needs is disrespecful. My changes are a long time coming and they are for me, 4 months sober, learning what I have in this time I am disgusted with the way I treated her for so long, it was mostly me. My 180 is to become a nicer guy in a healthy way. And yes I do need to spend less time obsessing over losing her, and yes I am fearful. I cry more in each week since she left then I have in our marriage. You must understand that if the advice has to do with her having an affir of any kind, it is counterproductive, she is 100% on her own as I will be. I believe she wont know where she is at with us until she has time to heal, and during that time I want to regain her trust.


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## turnera

fwiw, I would have been his wife, and I would have never cheated. It's not always an affair.

Stuart, FYI, though, women are typically very slow to run out of love and thus are also very slow to trust again. I'm not talking a few months here. It may take her seeing a new you for a year, maybe two, before she'd trust that you really 'got it.'


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## stuart

turnera said:


> What affair fog? Did I miss an affair?


No, there is no affair of any kind. My wife works hard at her job, loves our kid, has friends & interests, and for the first time in her life being selfish. Now I drove her away, so calling her selfish isnt entirely fair. It was very hard for her to leave and she is hurting very much, i have been closed off for too long, if I was as open with her as I now am here we would be together, working together. Showing her this new me, if I keep at it , is what she wanted for a long time


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## stuart

turnera said:


> fwiw, I would have been his wife, and I would have never cheated. It's not always an affair.
> 
> Stuart, FYI, though, women are typically very slow to run out of love and thus are also very slow to trust again. I'm not talking a few months here. It may take her seeing a new you for a year, maybe two, before she'd trust that you really 'got it.'


I agree. My wife is very open, very forgiving, very loving, and was very patient with me. I tried, but I was too selfish, I have awoken and if given another chance, it will be about her, that is what I want now, its really the true me. I want to give, and I want to give to her. When she left she said I will always love you, but I dont think you can give me what I need which is a deeper emotional life, etc and that I dont think I am giving you what you need either. Even at the end she was thinking about me, what she was giving me was what I needed, I know that now more than ever. My problem was that I didnt think I deserved it. I will keep improving myself, and if it took two yrs. that is not long considering how long were together, but if we dont reconcile there will always be a hole inside as I know we were soulmates. Tunera are you still married.


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## turnera

Yes, I am. With a lot of therapy, I learned to speak up and start expecting better treatment before being driven to move out. Things are improving. But it will be a long time before I'm going to be 'into' him again.


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## stuart

Looking back my wife tried to speak up, but not enough, I don't think she got the help you are getting. Keep at it, from my perspective your husband loves you very much and you should know that he has problems, is he getting help as well.


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## turnera

He looks to me to tell him what to change, because he wants to be married so badly. Honestly, the biggest problem has always been my inability to speak up and to demand respect (I was taught not to do so in childhood).

Stuart, just to make sure, because I usually do tell people TO make sure when one spouse leaves - DO check up on her to make sure there's not another man. Check the phone records for a number she's called a LOT. Check emails if you can. Just to make sure. I really doubt it given how you describe her, but given what you've been like, it's possible she got caught up in an exit affair.


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## stuart

She would have been able to hide the tech stuff from me, I am not a tech person, its amazing I figured out how to this, if she were here she would have shown me. I am certain, she would have told me you know, one thing she said when she left was how much energy she exerted just to be able to leave. She said this after one of my apologetic mistakes, she also said it seems like surface level change, not deep profound change, and she is right such change will take time. She is having a hard time herself, not sleeping well, depressed, she never wanted to do this. I think if I acted like she expected, angry, blaming her, etc. it would be easier for her, to think I will never change. I am there for her now because I know I am changing, I just hope in the long run it still matters to her.


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## cdbaker

stuart said:


> turnera said:
> 
> 
> 
> What affair fog? Did I miss an affair?
> 
> 
> 
> No, there is no affair of any kind.
Click to expand...

Whoops! For starters, I have to apologize to you both here, I think when I responded to Turnera's post about how he can slowly rebuild trust with his separated wife, I mixed up this thread with another thread elsewhere regarding a man suspecting his wife of an affair while she is also pushing for a separation. So I completely goofed, please disregard my response to her message. (As I said, I rarely disagree with Turnera so fundamentally, so I really should have double-checked this. I knew there had to be a reason! Lol)



stuart said:


> turnera said:
> 
> 
> 
> fwiw, I would have been his wife, and I would have never cheated. It's not always an affair.
> Stuart, FYI, though, women are typically very slow to run out of love and thus are also very slow to trust again. I'm not talking a few months here. It may take her seeing a new you for a year, maybe two, before she'd trust that you really 'got it.'
> 
> 
> 
> I will keep improving myself, and if it took two yrs. that is not long considering how long were together, but if we dont reconcile there will always be a hole inside as I know we were soulmates.
Click to expand...




stuart said:


> She said this after one of my apologetic mistakes, she also said it seems like surface level change, not deep profound change, and she is right such change will take time. She is having a hard time herself, not sleeping well, depressed, she never wanted to do this. I think if I acted like she expected, angry, blaming her, etc. it would be easier for her, to think I will never change. I am there for her now because I know I am changing, I just hope in the long run it still matters to her.


This is a definitely a good point to consider. I'm not a woman of course, but I have first hand experience regarding how much time and effort it can take to soften the heart of a woman who has been burned so badly by the person she was most vulnerable to. For me, I definitely had other factors involved that made our separation and reconciliation period far longer than it needed to be (namely a long-term affair and depression issues) at nearly 5 years long. But if I were to guess, even if those elements weren't present, I'm guessing the reconciliation period still would have been 2-3 years. You mentioned how, 4 months into the separation, your wife still isn't quite able or willing to accept that the changes you are trying to make are genuine or long term, and that completely makes sense.

Why? Two reasons. First, you've essentially trained her over the years to understand that positive change with you is usually temporary. It's usually a quick fix, she gets a little bit of hope, and then you let her down. So right off the bat, as a defensive mechanism to protect her heart from being broken again, she is inclined to disbelieve anything positive from you. You've betrayed her trust, so promises and short term demonstrations won't cut it this time. Second, the reality is that most people don't change very much because real long term change is genuinely extremely difficult to accomplish. By the time you get to our age, our habits, behaviors, attitudes, views, proclivities, etc. are VERY strongly established. In an incredibly emotionally charged time like losing your spouse and facing the possible end of your marriage, you can certainly feel incredibly fired up and willing to do anything to save it, but even that determination can't produce genuine long term behavioral changes by itself. 



stuart said:


> Looking back my wife tried to speak up, but not enough...


Yeah... we see this all the time on TAM. We all know women communicate very differently than men do, and I think that's the root of what you're saying, and that poor communication can create massive problems. In short, women like to talk more, avoid confrontation, and essentially verbally "dance around" a subject in order to try to make their point via a lot of verbal illustration, dropping hints, alluding to similarities, etc. Like instead of saying, "It has been months since we went out together somewhere, I want us to go out dancing this Friday" they might say, "I've been so bored lately... I thought about doing something with [Friend's name] this Friday but her husband is taking her out on a surprise date of some kind... I bet they're going dancing..." She'll think she's communicating clearly what she wants, or at the very least that she is giving you enough clues that you should certainly be able to figure it out on your own. They *love* clue dropping like that too, in a very small way it allows them to feel "chased" again like they felt before they got married.

So the trouble is, we men don't "get" this indirect communication. In that last example, the husband probably just identified what she said as her presenting a problem, without a solution. (This is something that women tend to do a lot it seems, according to men) To him, the problem is that she wanted was to go out with her friend, but is disappointed because she won't be able to because her friend will be busy. The part about her friend being taken on a date by her husband, likely dancing, just comes across as "filler", the unnecessary details that women sometimes like to rattle off. His natural instinct to any problem is try put on his "Mr. Fix-it Hat" and might respond with something like, "Oh that's too bad. Maybe you two can arrange to go out next week instead?" Bingo, problem solved, happy wife/happy life!

Women don't change easily, just as men don't either, so over a long period of time wives will more or less repeatedly try to communicate the concerns and problems they are seeing, and we men will often not realize it at all. Then, seemingly all of a sudden with no warning, the wife gives up, hardens her heart against him as a defensive mechanism, and leaves him or kicks him out. It's understandable, but also a shame, since it's often not until that moment that he finally realizes that there was a serious problem and is willing to do what it takes to make it right, but she's too far gone to reconsider at that point.

Sorry for the long story/explanation, take it for a grain of salt of course, but this is just my perception of what I see here and elsewhere all the time. I get the impression that this was the case in your story as well.



stuart said:


> First I want to thank everyone for helping, my mind is definetely mush right now. I know for sure my wife is not with anyone else, she respects herself too much, and really wants to heal and move on to something better,


Hopefully you are right, but as others have said, definitely try your best to keep your eyes and ears open for any changes that indicate otherwise. For a woman is has suffered this long, gained the strength to take the step of separating and is only a few steps away from divorce, even if they aren't seeking out an extramarital connection with someone else, they can be *extremely* susceptible to the comforting words/attention of another man, especially if he is aware of her circumstances and seeking to take advantage. So I do hope you are right, but know that this can change. (Though being pushing, hovering around her, being needy or suffocating her with attention will make things worse, so don't worry/stress TOO much)



stuart said:


> The points that tunera is raising is what I am thinking, to be her friend, to be there for her, to be respectful is a 180 for me.


Sorry again for my misunderstanding earlier. You probably don't necessarily need a typical 180 here. I think the your strategy should differ in that it's ok to be very friendly, offering to help if she presents a problem, engaging conversationally if she initiates, even occasionally sharing things with her she might find funny or interesting, etc. You just want to be careful, given your current state where you seem consumed with thinking of her all the time, to not become suffocating, or let her think that you are "putting on an act" in an effort to win her back.


stuart said:


> To keep working on myself honestly is what I want to do for myself, but I dont see how if this is true change it would turn turn my wife off.


Focusing primarily on yourself, improving yourself, and all of those similar elements will still work best for you either way. It's good for her to see you making improvements, but she needs to know that you're making those efforts for YOU, not for her, or else she'll suspect it's an act that will go away if she ever gives the marriage another chance. 


stuart said:


> My changes are a long time coming and they are for me, 4 months sober, learning what I have in this time I am disgusted with the way I treated her for so long, it was mostly me. My 180 is to become a nicer guy in a healthy way. And yes I do need to spend less time obsessing over losing her, and yes I am fearful. I cry more in each week since she left then I have in our marriage.


Hearing this I recall the days and months following the crumbling of my own marriage. There were many tears, bouts of frustration, crying out to God via prayer, etc. It's great that you're taking the time to figure out your own failings and how you can solve those issues. One word of advice here, is that you should never ever be at a point where you believe you are "all better" and have figured it all out. If you ever feel that way, you'll want to question your motives, and whether you're just reaching that conclusion because you want your wife to believe that and come home to you. Even if you have figured out most of what you're problems were, it will still take years to really make the changes you need in many cases. For me, there are still times when I still struggle to not accidentally repeat a negative behavior/trait that was very common in my past. Early on in the process however, simply being able to recognize it shortly after the fact was a huge positive step. So just don't ever allow yourself to be convinced that you've "succeeded" in beating your demons, that you're all done.

Gosh, sorry for the length, but one more thought. I don't know if you've ever had an issue with getting a "big head" or allowing yourself to feel like you're better than others, that it's important to you that friends/family/strangers think that you're great, a good person, husband, father, etc. I know that during this time of working on your issues, making progress, trying to show your wife love from afar, other friends/family/co-workers _will_ notice your efforts and applaud your commitment, maybe offer you praise, give compliments like "Wow I wish my husband could wake up and change like you have" or "I don't think your wife realizes what she has in you" or "Your wife is a lucky woman, why can't she see that?", etc. Don't let any of that go to your head! You can't let yourself believe any of that, because 1. they don't really know what they're talking about, and 2. what they think/feel is irrelevant, it doesn't mean much unless your wife comes to feel the same way. In fact, for me whenever I had that kind of praise thrown my way, in order to keep my big head grounded (and defending my wife, if the comment alludes to not being able to understand why isn't yet willing to recommit to the marriage) I usually would respond by telling them that while yes I've made a lot of positive effort and I think it is slowly paying off, that I was still a pretty crappy husband for a number of reasons and I can't blame my wife a bit for being skeptical. Plus, the last thing I wanted if my wife and I did reconcile was for her to come home and then discover that all of our friends/family think I am a saint and that she was heartless/crazy for not having come home sooner.


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## stuart

Thanks. Does anyone have any suggestions for me for tonight, my wife and I will be attending my childs school concert and will be sitting together. It will be the longest we are face to face in a month, any ideas on how to interact, what to talk about, what not to talk about, do I dress nicer than usual, I never really dressed up. Right now all she wants is to be friends & coparents so I dont want to push it any more than that, so as a friend how do I act.


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## turnera

Dress nice. Smell nice. Clean hair. Look at her like a good friend and treat her that way.


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## stuart

So I think the concert went well, the kids were great. I walked there with my wife and we sat together, we shared some tea and a chocolate bar that I brought. I asked her about work, and her tae kwon do class, I listened and was interested. We made each other smile, laugh at a couple of funny moments, she always liked my sense of humor. We walked back to the house, and we hugged good night, and I told her to get home safely. Its so hard to maintain composure when I want to be with her so bad and she is not interested in working on us, but I didn't push in any way. I know if we have any chance it will be a long time, I will keep working on myself, work on obsessing less, & keep being there for her how ever I can. Last month we hung out together as a family and I made dinner and we watched tv, but I broke down a bit and tried to convince her to work with me, & so I set myself back that night. Tonight we were together because of my child, any advice on how to approach hanging out again just to have fun, should I wait for her to ask, I don't want to push & keep getting rejected.


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## the guy

Don't push it.

Your old lady doesn't want to see your old self.

Show her a new guy that has a little mystery.

I'm guessing the less she knows about your day to day the more curious she will be and will contact you soon enough....even though she will come off with another excuse to contact you ....let her make the 1st move.


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## turnera

Don't be in a hurry. This will take months, not weeks.


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## DayOne

turnera said:


> Don't be in a hurry. This will take months, not weeks.


:iagree:


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## stuart

the guy said:


> Don't push it.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm guessing the less she knows about your day to day the more curious she will be and will contact you soon enough....even though she will come off with another excuse to contact you ....let her make the 1st move.


she does contact me usually by email to send me a funny you tube link she thinks i will like, today she emailed me info about a summer camp my kid might like asking me if i think she will like it, this way I would respond. Is this what you mean, What is this an indication of, that she misses me? I started trying to learn guitar again and loooking for other things to keep my mind off her, I know I am obssessing, its hard, but patience is something I was never good with, and I miss her, not just physically, but how we used to connect even though its been a while, long before she left.


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## Chaparral

stuart said:


> she does contact me usually by email to send me a funny you tube link she thinks i will like, today she emailed me info about a summer camp my kid might like asking me if i think she will like it, this way I would respond. Is this what you mean, What is this an indication of, that she misses me? I started trying to learn guitar again and loooking for other things to keep my mind off her, I know I am obssessing, its hard, but patience is something I was never good with, and I miss her, not just physically, but how we used to connect even though its been a while, long before she left.


It means she wants to know what you think about the summer camp. Nothing more. Itsca good chance to show her she can contact you and you won't go off the deep end.

The other option is you can be needy and whine and beg her to come back. That will let her know she made the right decision.

If you don't learn to respect yourself she will never respect you. Have you read mmslp yet?


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## cdbaker

stuart said:


> she does contact me usually by email to send me a funny you tube link she thinks i will like, today she emailed me info about a summer camp my kid might like asking me if i think she will like it, this way I would respond. Is this what you mean, What is this an indication of, that she misses me? I started trying to learn guitar again and loooking for other things to keep my mind off her, I know I am obssessing, its hard, but patience is something I was never good with, and I miss her, not just physically, but how we used to connect even though its been a while, long before she left.


Chapperal is right, it means she wants your opinion on this summer camp. You should be pleased that she's willing to ask your opinion, but nothing more.

You've really got to try harder to keep your mind off her, because you're not doing yourself any good otherwise. Try to enjoy yourself with fun activities and friends. Whenever you find yourself starting to think about her, if you really want to do something that will help your chances of "winning her back", just go to the gym or for a jog or make yourself a healthy meal. Maybe that's a way to satisfy your need to think about her/put effort into restoring the marriage. Convert that wasted effort into a positive effort that is also baby steps for you and your relationship.


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## stuart

Thanks guys, I am stubborn so it helps to keep pounding me so I finally get that I need to stop obssessing about her, and think about working on myself, having fun for myself. When I do interact with her I am calmer and stick to the subject or keep it light, I dont go off the deep end anymore, but the sooner I get her out of my head the better off I will be.


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## LongWalk

Getting a WAW back is tough. She didn't pull herself together to leave you so that she could reverse the decision. In her mind your marriage is largely over. She is trying to formalize the separation.

Are you working out? Improving your physical appearance will catch her eye. Talking about your improvements detracts from the impression they make.

Do you smoke? If you, do quit. Never mention the subject. She will discover.

Did your wife explicitly say she does not want to date? 

She wants to heal so that she can go on with her life. That rest of her life may include thoughts of other men. 

You have to raise your sex ranking.


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## stuart

LongWalk said:


> Getting a WAW back is tough. She didn't pull herself together to leave you so that she could reverse the decision. In her mind your marriage is largely over. She is trying to formalize the separation.
> 
> Are you working out? Improving your physical appearance will catch her eye. Talking about your improvements detracts from the impression they make.
> 
> Do you smoke? If you, do quit. Never mention the subject. She will discover.
> 
> Did your wife explicitly say she does not want to date?
> 
> She wants to heal so that she can go on with her life. That rest of her life may include thoughts of other men.
> 
> You have to raise your sex ranking.


Yes, in her mind when she left she was thinking its over, its been four months and she does want to do a seperation agreement now, i am waiting for her to show me a draft. I am in good shape, good weight, improvements I have to make are behavioral. She knows I'm seeing a therapist, she knows I quit drinking, and I am treating her with respect, and I am now finally starting to get my head together. She doesn't want to date, we hung out as a family a few times and the last time i was pushing her to work on the marriage and so we havn't hung out since. I am giving it time and we will see, I dont want to ask her and be rejected. She wants to heal and move on, yes one day she might be with someone else, but maybe we will start over. In what ways do you suggest I raise my sex ranking.


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## FormerVictim

stuart said:


> Yes, in her mind when she left she was thinking its over, its been four months and she does want to do a seperation agreement now, i am waiting for her to show me a draft. I am in good shape, good weight, improvements I have to make are behavioral. She knows I'm seeing a therapist, she knows I quit drinking, and I am treating her with respect, and I am now finally starting to get my head together. She doesn't want to date, we hung out as a family a few times and the last time i was pushing her to work on the marriage and so we havn't hung out since. I am giving it time and we will see, I dont want to ask her and be rejected. She wants to heal and move on, yes one day she might be with someone else, but maybe we will start over. In what ways do you suggest I raise my sex ranking.


Reaching out to her, pushing her to consider reconciling... all that is working against yourself.


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## stuart

FormerVictim said:


> Reaching out to her, pushing her to consider reconciling... all that is working against yourself.


I know it now, I am not pushing anymore,I am letting her initiate contact, when she does I treat her respectfully. Any thoughts about hanging out, reconciling need to come from her. Right now I am going to focus on myself & do some things I always wanted to, so I can stop thinking about her.


----------



## the guy

stuart said:


> In what ways do you suggest I raise my sex ranking.


Start dating a younger hot girl.

Or....

Have the ego that tells your old lady you can get someone else!

Chicks dig confident guys.


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## the guy

stuart said:


> I know it now, I am not pushing anymore,I am letting her initiate contact, when she does I treat her respectfully. Any thoughts about hanging out, reconciling need to come from her. Right now I am going to focus on myself & do some things I always wanted to, so I can stop thinking about her.


:smthumbup:

Your old lady needs to have a mystery man....be that guy!

If she wants to hang out...well turn her down a few times. If she really wants to hang out she'll keep trying.

You can think about her all you want, just don;t let her know that.


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## turnera

Keep doing what you're doing, but absolutely let her see YOU going out and having a fun new life without her. Not in a thumb your nose at her kind of way, but in a 'I'll respect your wishes so I won't sit by the phone and hey! my friends are all out doing fun stuff so I will go with them' way. We want what we can't have.


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## Chaparral

stuart said:


> Yes, in her mind when she left she was thinking its over, its been four months and she does want to do a seperation agreement now, i am waiting for her to show me a draft. I am in good shape, good weight, improvements I have to make are behavioral. She knows I'm seeing a therapist, she knows I quit drinking, and I am treating her with respect, and I am now finally starting to get my head together. She doesn't want to date,* we hung out as a family a few times and the last time i was pushing her to work on the marriage and so we havn't hung out since.* I am giving it time and we will see, I dont want to ask her and be rejected. She wants to heal and move on, yes one day she might be with someone else, but maybe we will start over. * In what ways do you suggest I raise my sex ranking.*


You haven't read mmslp linked to below have you?


----------



## Chaparral

You're trying to find a magic bullet and that's sinking your ship.

Get the MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER. Youre in such a hurry download it at amazon.com. Also get the book HOLD ON TO YOUR NUTS.

Go read this, its free. https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf

What you are trying to do isn't going to happen over night. If you follow these books advice you will win your wife back or be a decent partner in your next, better relationship.


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## stuart

So I read nice guys, and it did help me figure some things out. My wife dropped off our kid this morning, and I was wearing my glasses which I recently got, before that I didnt wear glasses, so my wife has only seen me in glasses twice in my life. Today on her way out she said you know you really do look cute in those glasses, and I said thank you. I should probably always wear them around her maybe.


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## stuart

so had a problem withthe furnace in the house today, i am working today, so I asked the wife if she could help. Should I not be doing this, she still owns the house with me, and i did need help as where I live we need the heat this time of year, I dont want pipes to freeze, and our child is there half the week. But basically is asking for this type of help hurting me in anyway.


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## LongWalk

This is not a big deal. But the more independent and less needy you are the better. Your child's welfare is your responsibility when you are the custodian.

Concentrate on yourself. When you are happy and secure in yourself, you will be more attractive to your wife. But you need to get to the point that you don't need her.


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## stuart

LongWalk said:


> This is not a big deal. But the more independent and less needy you are the better. Your child's welfare is your responsibility when you are the custodian.
> 
> Concentrate on yourself. When you are happy and secure in yourself, you will be more attractive to your wife. But you need to get to the point that you don't need her.


The one good thing I think is that in the past when things like this came up, something broke, I would get frustrated, angry and would not be nice. When I spoke with her I was calm, listened to what she said and didn't make it seem like it was the end of the world. I think however, unless it is urgent and I think the heat is, I will not ask her for any help, I will take care of things on my own, and give her space and let her see that I can take care of myself.


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## stuart

Today was tough, didn't want to bother my wife, I know she wants space and to rest, she has been doing a lot of errands I used to, as well as working, and taking care of the kid more than half the week. I almost wish she were having an affair so I could go no contact, but she is not, and I do worry about her not having time to rest, reflect, heal. I think I am at a point where I am going to say screw it, and let her be. I need to heal, let it be her turn to need me.


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## cdbaker

stuart said:


> So I read nice guys, and it did help me figure some things out. My wife dropped off our kid this morning, and I was wearing my glasses which I recently got, before that I didnt wear glasses, so my wife has only seen me in glasses twice in my life. Today on her way out she said you know you really do look cute in those glasses, and I said thank you. I should probably always wear them around her maybe.


Don't always wear them. If you pretty much never wore them before, then right after she compliments you she starts seeing you wear them all the time, I bet she'll connect the dots and think you are wearing them for her sake. It's ok to wear them more now if you need them, but I would avoid wearing them all the time. Don't let her think it's being done for her.



stuart said:


> so had a problem withthe furnace in the house today, i am working today, so I asked the wife if she could help. Should I not be doing this, she still owns the house with me, and i did need help as where I live we need the heat this time of year, I dont want pipes to freeze, and our child is there half the week. But basically is asking for this type of help hurting me in anyway.


Depends on the problem, and it depends on the help you asked her for. I mean, if the house is flooding and you're more than an hour away from home, it makes sense to ask her to rush to the house to turn off the water if she is the only other person with a key, because that is a very time sensitive emergency. If you don't actually *need* her help, then I certainly wouldn't have asked her for it. That will come off as needy. Especially if it's something you genuinely could have done yourself, given that furnace issues are typically a "Man's problem", so you could be shooting yourself in the foot if you're giving her the impression that you need her help. In general, if it's something you can take care of yourself, or ask a male friend for help with instead, you shouldn't ask your wife to get involved at all. I get that heat is important, but honestly I think you had a far stronger opportunity here to address the issue yourself, on your own, and let her find out about it later. I think that would have been far more impactful upon her.



stuart said:


> Today was tough, didn't want to bother my wife, I know she wants space and to rest, she has been doing a lot of errands I used to, as well as working, and taking care of the kid more than half the week. I almost wish she were having an affair so I could go no contact, but she is not, and I do worry about her not having time to rest, reflect, heal. I think I am at a point where I am going to say screw it, and let her be. I need to heal, let it be her turn to need me.


Good plan, but you have to stick to it. It sounds like you wake up most mornings wondering how you can communicate with her today. Like what scenario you can imagine up and what excuse you will use to explain it and how she'll view it or whatever, etc. etc. etc. 

As far as dating, which another commenter suggested, I'm assuming that you've both agreed already to not date other people, right? Like have you both made that promise to each other yet?


----------



## turnera

cdbaker said:


> It sounds like you wake up most mornings wondering how you can communicate with her today.


It sounds to me like you wake up most mornings wondering how to IMPRESS her and TRICK her into wanting you. Straight out of No More Mr Nice Guy - covert contracts.


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## stuart

cdbaker said:


> Don't always wear them. If you pretty much never wore them before, then right after she compliments you she starts seeing you wear them all the time, I bet she'll connect the dots and think you are wearing them for her sake. It's ok to wear them more now if you need them, but I would avoid wearing them all the time. Don't let her think it's being done for her.
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on the problem, and it depends on the help you asked her for. I mean, if the house is flooding and you're more than an hour away from home, it makes sense to ask her to rush to the house to turn off the water if she is the only other person with a key, because that is a very time sensitive emergency. If you don't actually *need* her help, then I certainly wouldn't have asked her for it. That will come off as needy. Especially if it's something you genuinely could have done yourself, given that furnace issues are typically a "Man's problem", so you could be shooting yourself in the foot if you're giving her the impression that you need her help. In general, if it's something you can take care of yourself, or ask a male friend for help with instead, you shouldn't ask your wife to get involved at all. I get that heat is important, but honestly I think you had a far stronger opportunity here to address the issue yourself, on your own, and let her find out about it later. I think that would have been far more impactful upon her.
> 
> 
> 
> Good plan, but you have to stick to it. It sounds like you wake up most mornings wondering how you can communicate with her today. Like what scenario you can imagine up and what excuse you will use to explain it and how she'll view it or whatever, etc. etc. etc.
> 
> As far as da ting, which another commenter suggested, I'm assuming that you've both agreed already to not date other people, right? Like have you both made that promise to each other yet?


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## stuart

As far as dating goes, she had said at one point a couple months ago, she thought I should date, she thought it was one of the problems we had that we got together young and I regretted not dating more. I told her I didnt want to because it would feel like cheating. I am waiting for her draft of the seperation agreement and would bring it up at that point.


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## cdbaker

Her suggesting that you date other people is usually another way of saying, "I intend to date other people (or am already secretly seeing someone) so I am giving you permission to see other people because doing so will make me feel less guilty."

Her suggesting that you date other people, and suggesting that getting married young and not exploring other people may be a contributing factor to your poor marital health, is extremely noteworthy. If she said that a few months ago, very shortly after the separation began, I would absolutely assume that this means she feels she is free to see other people and may have been or is presently seeing someone else, whether you declined her suggestion for you to date others as well or not.

This again leads me to question whether she was involved with someone else before the separation started. It's difficult for either spouse to leave their home/marriage, but I think emotionally it's even harder for women. It seems to me that more often than not, when a woman moves out (and maybe to a slightly lesser degree when she kicks out her husband instead), she seems to already be involved with another man in an EA/PA, or has someone in particular in mind waiting in the wings whom she is confident she could snag. It's often a security thing for them, in that they might feel that the marriage is hopeless, but are afraid of being truly on their own again with no source of support, financial or otherwise. Getting involved with another man, or having a close male friend with relationship potential giving her confidence in herself, is often the fuel she needs to move past that fear. You know your wife better than we do of course, I just wanted to give you some food for thought. I think you've mentioned that your wife is very smart, and very tech savvy, so it certainly seems possible that she could be hiding something like this.


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## cdbaker

I know when my separation first began, my wife was adamant that she be free to see other people. This crushed me at first, absolutely crushed me. The counselor explained how destructive that would be for the marriage, how the separation wouldn't really serve any purpose if either of us were seeing other people on the side, and she finally agreed to include a line in the separation that said that neither of us would be permitted to see other people before we signed it. It turned out that the agreement wasn't worth the paper it was written on, she hooked up with the old AP that very afternoon after leaving the counselor's office.

In all seriousness, the worst day of my life wasn't the day I discovered any of her cheating, or the day I had to file for divorce, or even the day I saw her and her AP together in person with my own eyes, it was the day we met with our marriage counselor to iron out a "separation agreement" and she aggressively tried to push for the agreement to allow her to see other people. I had never been more crushed/heartbroken.

My point is that if she really just wants time apart to process through her feelings/emotions and give you time to process through yours and possible re-think your needs/priorities, then there is absolutely no need for seeing other people. It's a question of what is the goal of the separation? Is it to find that healing and understanding you need, without the potential distraction of an equally hurt/damaged spouse generating ongoing conflict that prevents that healing/understanding, for the sake of getting to a point where the marriage can be salvaged successfully? Or is purely to take a "free pass" from the marriage in order to decide whether or not you still want to be married to your spouse at all, even if all the problems could be worked out. My understanding is that the latter scenario very rarely results in a restored, happy marriage.


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## stuart

cdbaker said:


> I know when my separation first began, my wife was adamant that she be free to see other people. This crushed me at first, absolutely crushed me. The counselor explained how destructive that would be for the marriage, how the separation wouldn't really serve any purpose if either of us were seeing other people on the side, and she finally agreed to include a line in the separation that said that neither of us would be permitted to see other people before we signed it. It turned out that the agreement wasn't worth the paper it was written on, she hooked up with the old AP that very afternoon after leaving the counselor's office.
> 
> In all seriousness, the worst day of my life wasn't the day I discovered any of her cheating, or the day I had to file for divorce, or even the day I saw her and her AP together in person with my own eyes, it was the day we met with our marriage counselor to iron out a "separation agreement" and she aggressively tried to push for the agreement to allow her to see other people. I had never been more crushed/heartbroken.
> 
> My point is that if she really just wants time apart to process through her feelings/emotions and give you time to process through yours and possible re-think your needs/priorities, then there is absolutely no need for seeing other people. It's a question of what is the goal of the separation? Is it to find that healing and understanding you need, without the potential distraction of an equally hurt/damaged spouse generating ongoing conflict that prevents that healing/understanding, for the sake of getting to a point where the marriage can be salvaged successfully? Or is purely to take a "free pass" from the marriage in order to decide whether or not you still want to be married to your spouse at all, even if all the problems could be worked out. My understanding is that the latter scenario very rarely results in a restored, happy marriage.


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## stuart

She got a promotion last year and now makes considerably more than me, I think this is what gave her the confidence to leave now. She said she wants to do the agreement and wait a year before anything else, why would't she just file for divorce right away, we live in a no fault state. Should I ask her about dating now or wait until the agreement which she is ready to do, I am waiting on her.


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## stuart

Also, my wife has never lied to me, and I dont think she could be with someone and not tell me. She has said a lot of things to me in the 4 months that I dont think she would say if she was with someone else. When we first seperated she said I love you, and I will always love you. She never said, but I'm not in love with you. Then when I promised to change, not knowing I should't, she said that she is open for the future, but I have to do the deep work long term, and then she will see, but she wasn't promising. I think she wasn't promising because she doesn't know how she will feel in the future, plus she doesn't trust me. She sent me a link to a website explaining why you couldn't just have one drink, I quit drinking when she left for good, but she cant trust that yet. Why would she care about my drinking at this point if she was with someone else. She also said it would have to be a new beginning, she would have to have financial freedom, I was controlling with the finances. I really believe her new promotion and raise ggave her the confidence to think this was finally possible. When we do the seperation agreement dating will have to be addressed, and so I will go with my gut that she is single right now, and stick with the plan of treating her nice, respecting her, supporting her, and working on myself mostly.


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## turnera

Women put up with a LOT of crap from their husbands for years, decades, before deciding to move on. Each piece of crap is a hole in her Love Bucket and if it goes on long enough, the bucket becomes SO full of holes that the woman simply can't see the bucket ever getting full again. No matter how good you try to be, no matter how many Love Busters you remove, that memory of all the years she put up with crap won't go away. And women are VERY slow to trust again, once the tipping point's been reached and she's decided she just wants to be away from you. 

From everything I've read, it will take a woman usually a couple of YEARS before they believe you've really changed, at least one year. They ever ever vigilant about you just making an effort but _not really changing_ and, once they agree to come back, you just give up on it and go back to how you used to be. 

But if you stay in contact and continue to show her the new improved you, the feelings can come back. As long as she hasn't moved on to some other person.


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## stuart

turnera said:


> Women put up with a LOT of crap from their husbands for years, decades, before deciding to move on. Each piece of crap is a hole in her Love Bucket and if it goes on long enough, the bucket becomes SO full of holes that the woman simply can't see the bucket ever getting full again. No matter how good you try to be, no matter how many Love Busters you remove, that memory of all the years she put up with crap won't go away. And women are VERY slow to trust again, once the tipping point's been reached and she's decided she just wants to be away from you.
> 
> From everything I've read, it will take a woman usually a couple of YEARS before they believe you've really changed, at least one year. They ever ever vigilant about you just making an effort but _not really changing_ and, once they agree to come back, you just give up on it and go back to how you used to be.
> 
> But if you stay in contact and continue to show her the new improved you, the feelings can come back. As long as she hasn't moved on to some other person.


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## stuart

I now realize all the crap I gave her. We will be in contact plenty as she wants to wait a year after the seperation agreement before anything, she is thinking divorce, and our daughter is only 12. I also realIze how immature, and dependent I have been for so long. So I can only go up from here with all I now know there is no going back to my old self. I will focus now on being independent, better myself in everyway, and love my wife unconitionally. its been 4 months now, the agreement will take a little time to hammer out and then 1 year more. Maybe in that time she will learn again to trust me, I think she will like her timeto herself, I dont think she will be seriouswith anyon too soon because she will not trust to open up at ths point even with someone else.


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## turnera

Don't love her unconditionally. That's for kids. Your spouse has to deserve you.


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## stuart

Your right, I will love and respest her, and I too deserve love and respect.


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## cdbaker

stuart said:


> She got a promotion last year and now makes considerably more than me, I think this is what gave her the confidence to leave now. She said she wants to do the agreement and wait a year before anything else, why would't she just file for divorce right away, we live in a no fault state. Should I ask her about dating now or wait until the agreement which she is ready to do, I am waiting on her.





stuart said:


> Also, my wife has never lied to me, and I dont think she could be with someone and not tell me. She has said a lot of things to me in the 4 months that I dont think she would say if she was with someone else. When we first seperated she said I love you, and I will always love you. She never said, but I'm not in love with you. Then when I promised to change, not knowing I should't, she said that she is open for the future, but I have to do the deep work long term, and then she will see, but she wasn't promising. I think she wasn't promising because she doesn't know how she will feel in the future, plus she doesn't trust me. She sent me a link to a website explaining why you couldn't just have one drink, I quit drinking when she left for good, but she cant trust that yet. Why would she care about my drinking at this point if she was with someone else. She also said it would have to be a new beginning, she would have to have financial freedom, I was controlling with the finances. I really believe her new promotion and raise ggave her the confidence to think this was finally possible. When we do the seperation agreement dating will have to be addressed, and so I will go with my gut that she is single right now, and stick with the plan of treating her nice, respecting her, supporting her, and working on myself mostly.


I'm certainly not suggesting that I/we know what she is or isn't doing, or why she is or isn't doing anything here, but there isn't anything you've cited from her that means she isn't seeing someone else.

Why wouldn't she just file for divorce right away? Could be a number of reasons. Maybe she just wants to be completely certain, maybe she wants to "let you down" easy, or she just wants to protect herself.

Your wife has never lied to you? Not that I'm saying you're wrong, but the reality is that you aren't aware of any other time where she has lied to you. You can't know that she hasn't lied with certainty, no one can.

She says she loves you and always will? Well yeah, this is pretty normal for divorces that don't end dramatically or in a swirl of rage. I filed for divorce from my wife knowing full well that I loved her and would always love her, but I did so because I was also unwilling to live with the decisions and behaviors she was engaging in. Sounds to me like she's feeling the same way about you.

Saying that she is "open to the future" as far as not being 100% committed to divorce? Well yes, you never want to say that you are 100% closed off to the possibility of changing your mind on something. Whether she was seeing someone else, planning to see others, or not planning to see others, of course she can recognize that even if she feels 99% certain that the marriage is doomed, that there is still that chance that she could be persuaded otherwise. Plus if that hope is the key to you finally making some major positive changes in your life, then it is a good thing for everyone involved and may even give the marriage a chance.

Why would she care about your drinking or other negative behaviors if she is with someone else? Again, she can still love you and care for you, and even harbor some hope that you'll genuinely change and the marriage can be saved, while still seeing someone else, knowing how unlikely that hope is to coming true. During my entire three year separation I went out on dozens of dates, had several sexual partners and two girlfriends, all while knowing that I loved my wife, wanting the best for her, still having hope that she might change course and recommit to the marriage, but accepting that it was unlikely and not wanting to sit around wasting my life alone in the meantime.

Why might she point out major changes that would have to be made if the marriage were salvageable if she has no intention of the marriage being saved? Well, she probably doesn't believe that the marriage is unsalvagable, she only doubts that it can be saved. Plus, by being clear with what kind of major changes would be expected, you can understand completely what would be involved and make a genuine decision regarding what you want. It's always best to be honest. She wouldn't want to surprise you with her new expectations later down the road after all.


I'm sorry I am really not trying to discourage you, it just seems to me like you are viewing everything through these rose colored glasses and maybe aren't seeing any other possibilities here. I certainly don't think you should give up hope if you still love your wife and are willing to put in the work, and just as importantly, be patient enough to give it a chance. I just think you should ensure that you are seeing the situation/challenges clearly.


As for whether the dating question should be addressed sooner than later... I don't know. It might not matter right now. My my perspective, based on what you shared that she has said, I think she probably feels that she can see someone else any way she wants to without guilt, because she already informed you that you should feel free to do the same. The obvious implication there being that she will feel free to do so as well. Thus she wouldn't feel that she is cheating on you, or lying if she doesn't choose to share these details with you. Whether you know if she is seeing someone or not however, or feels she is free to see other people or not, really won't change anything on her end at all. If it's important to you that you have that clarification of how she feels about seeing other people, or if she is seeing other people or not, then yeah I would say you should ask her for clarification. If it isn't really going to change your position either way however, then I wouldn't say a word about it because asking her that now could really make you appear meak and pathetic. Like if she is seeing someone or feels she is free too, she might wonder how you could have possibly not known this after she suggested you see other people? If she doesn't feel that she should be free to see other people, then still could interpret your asking as more invasion of her personal space and a continued sign of your obsession over her.


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## stuart

cdbaker said:


> I'm certainly not suggesting that I/we know what she is or isn't doing, or why she is or isn't doing anything here, but there isn't anything you've cited from her that means she isn't seeing someone else.
> 
> Why wouldn't she just file for divorce right away? Could be a number of reasons. Maybe she just wants to be completely certain, maybe she wants to "let you down" easy, or she just wants to protect herself.
> 
> Your wife has never lied to you? Not that I'm saying you're wrong, but the reality is that you aren't aware of any other time where she has lied to you. You can't know that she hasn't lied with certainty, no one can.
> 
> She says she loves you and always will? Well yeah, this is pretty normal for divorces that don't end dramatically or in a swirl of rage. I filed for divorce from my wife knowing full well that I loved her and would always love her, but I did so because I was also unwilling to live with the decisions and behaviors she was engaging in. Sounds to me like she's feeling the same way about you.
> 
> Saying that she is "open to the future" as far as not being 100% committed to divorce? Well yes, you never want to say that you are 100% closed off to the possibility of changing your mind on something. Whether she was seeing someone else, planning to see others, or not planning to see others, of course she can recognize that even if she feels 99% certain that the marriage is doomed, that there is still that chance that she could be persuaded otherwise. Plus if that hope is the key to you finally making some major positive changes in your life, then it is a good thing for everyone involved and may even give the marriage a chance.
> 
> Why would she care about your drinking or other negative behaviors if she is with someone else? Again, she can still love you and care for you, and even harbor some hope that you'll genuinely change and the marriage can be saved, while still seeing someone else, knowing how unlikely that hope is to coming true. During my entire three year separation I went out on dozens of dates, had several sexual partners and two girlfriends, all while knowing that I loved my wife, wanting the best for her, still having hope that she might change course and recommit to the marriage, but accepting that it was unlikely and not wanting to sit around wasting my life alone in the meantime.
> 
> Why might she point out major changes that would have to be made if the marriage were salvageable if she has no intention of the marriage being saved? Well, she probably doesn't believe that the marriage is unsalvagable, she only doubts that it can be saved. Plus, by being clear with what kind of major changes would be expected, you can understand completely what would be involved and make a genuine decision regarding what you want. It's always best to be honest. She wouldn't want to surprise you with her new expectations later down the road after all.
> 
> 
> I'm sorry I am really not trying to discourage you, it just seems to me like you are viewing everything through these rose colored glasses and maybe aren't seeing any other possibilities here. I certainly don't think you should give up hope if you still love your wife and are willing to put in the work, and just as importantly, be patient enough to give it a chance. I just think you should ensure that you are seeing the situation/challenges clearly.
> 
> 
> As for whether the dating question should be addressed sooner than later... I don't know. It might not matter right now. My my perspective, based on what you shared that she has said, I think she probably feels that she can see someone else any way she wants to without guilt, because she already informed you that you should feel free to do the same. The obvious implication there being that she will feel free to do so as well. Thus she wouldn't feel that she is cheating on you, or lying if she doesn't choose to share these details with you. Whether you know if she is seeing someone or not however, or feels she is free to see other people or not, really won't change anything on her end at all. If it's important to you that you have that clarification of how she feels about seeing other people, or if she is seeing other people or not, then yeah I would say you should ask her for clarification. If it isn't really going to change your position either way however, then I wouldn't say a word about it because asking her that now could really make you appear meak and pathetic. Like if she is seeing someone or feels she is free too, she might wonder how you could have possibly not known this after she suggested you see other people? If she doesn't feel that she should be free to see other people, then still could interpret your asking as more invasion of her personal space and a continued sign of your obsession over her.


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## stuart

Thanks for the post. I guess I am still in some denial. I have started the work and knowing what I now know I can never go back and this is for my own sanity. I do love my wife and I am hopeful that she wants to try again, and I am going to be patient, I realize it would take a long time. I will wait until the agreement to address the dating issue since it would have to be done anyway at that point, and right now I am in no mind to go on a date myself anyway. My focus now has to be to detach, gain some confidence and figure what I want with the rest of my life, as well as being the best father I can be. Something I have not addressed and let me know if anything how this might affect my wife is that her mother died about 6 weeks ago. They have not talked in ovr 20 years, her mother was one of the worst peolple I ever met, my wifes fam ily is pretty bad, she was very diffferent than them. Her mother actually took her own life, and I think my wife is unsure as to how she really feels about the whole thing. I do believe what gave my wife the confidence to leave was the raise she got at work, thinking its now possible financially. At this point with leaving, my daughter and how its affecting her, her mother suicide, moving, work, and the day to day errands which I did a lot of, her health, her asthma has bothered her, she has had some migraines, has said she has been down, with all of this I thinks she wants to be alone to figure things out and not make it more difficult by seeing anyone. I will find out soon enough.


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## Chaparral

Your wife may want to date.

She may have a boyfriend, tons of separations are so the spouse can feel free to date or have an affair.

It may be a test to see what you do.

I don't think she would wait if someone caught her eye.

If she left because of someone else, she will lie about it. There have been thousands of people here who started out saying their spouse wouldn't lie or cheat. They turned out to be wrong.

Have you asked her lately if she has dated anyone? If she asks you why, tell her friends have suggested to you that's why she told you to date.

The fact is its either a test or she doesn't care if you date. If she doesn't care, you can assume she would date if she gets the chance.


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## stuart

What if her telling me to date was a test, what would that mean?


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## LongWalk

It would mean that she would need to feel no guilt if she dated.

The death of her mother is of course a major event. She is likely to associate this period of time with big changes in her life.

Your best bet is to keep your mouth shut. Listen to her carefully. Give thoughtful short answers that do not expose your desire for reconciliation. Do not supply her with information about your life. Give her nothing. If she is really curious, maybe she will discover that she still loves you. You cannot hasten this outcome by being needy.

Turnera's suggestion on raising the issue of dating is fine if you can discuss it without giving the wrong impression, i.e., that you are desperate that it doesn't happen. The correct impression would be that you are simply seeking information in your own best interest and that you will move on without her if she intends to date.

The problem is that she may say something like: "I am not interested in starting relationships; I just need to be by myself to figure myself out."

With that answer you, you are really nowhere because her "interest" is a matter of personal choice over which you have no power. She certainly does not consider herself bound by wedding vows, unless she states this. Would you dare to ask her if she considers promises to each other still to be a valid contract?

What did you think of Chaparral's advice?

Read Bagdon's thread.


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## turnera

Look. The truth is is that you are weak, for whatever reason, and are not living up to your full potential. Go back and read NMMNG and MMSLP again and talk it over with your IC and figure out how to live a happy, healthy, manly life where you can WANT your wife but don't NEED her. Once you reach that place, you will be able to approach her as an equal and then nothing she does will be able to manipulate you into anything, because you'll believe in your own worth and will be able to just walk away if she doesn't respect you.

You spend weeks and weeks down in the weeds obsessing about this phrase she said or that thing you can do to get her to want you. It's all a sham. It's not real. The only thing that's real is that you're a man, you deserve respect (as does she), and if she isn't the one to GIVE you respect, you need to move on.


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## Suspecting2014

stuart said:


> What if her telling me to date was a test, what would that mean?


It could be, also could be her way to justify her going on dates.

IMO you should not date anyone but her. Make it clear to her.

She dating is a dealbreaker for you? 
If yes, make this clear to her.

If she want to date or just have fun, tell her that this will be the point of no return. So if she is testing you, you test her as wellwell. And if she is trying to justify something this will make clear to her that it is on her and on her alone.


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## stuart

turnera said:


> Look. The truth is is that you are weak, for whatever reason, and are not living up to your full potential. Go back and read NMMNG and MMSLP again and talk it over with your IC and figure out how to live a happy, healthy, manly life where you can WANT your wife but don't NEED her. Once you reach that place, you will be able to approach her as an equal and then nothing she does will be able to manipulate you into anything, because you'll believe in your own worth and will be able to just walk away if she doesn't respect you.
> 
> You spend weeks and weeks down in the weeds obsessing about this phrase she said or that thing you can do to get her to want you. It's all a sham. It's not real. The only thing that's real is that you're a man, you deserve respect (as does she), and if she isn't the one to GIVE you respect, you need to move on.


Your right about this. I am 47 and spent my life quitting. I had big problems with self esteem my whole life and am finally dealing with it, my wife leaving might turn out to be what gets me to live my life. I drank too much, watched to much tv, quit college and never had a job I loved. My wife has done the opposite, but she has self esteem issues and others or she would have left me sooner. I need to evolve, and find a purpose for my life, but this doesnt mean I dont want my wife, I do however have to not need her. I believe she is doing the work she needs to now well. When my wife asked me about quitting drinking a couple of months ago, I told her I am finally doing it because I want to for myself, she said that is big, I hope you can now achieve some of the things you always wanted to. I always talked, but never did things. So I guess I made another promise, and maybe if I can live up to this one she might believe I can change, so now what is it I want tk achieve, anything would be an improvement.


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## turnera

The best thing you can do right now is find a male mentor of some sort. Who will keep you accountable and also give you inspiration.


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## stuart

turnera said:


> The best thing you can do right now is find a male mentor of some sort. Who will keep you accountable and also give you inspiration.


My therapist is that right now, he went back to school in his forties to do this work after is wife left him.

My wife left a message earlier to ask with childcare help on monday, she just called again and seemed a little annoyed maybd cause I havnt called back. Should i callback and help or let her deal with it. Lets assume she is not with om , should I help.


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## LongWalk

Too bad Conrad is not here.

Stuart,

You have insight but like many of us have lacked will power.

Perhaps you are on the cusp of changing your life.


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## turnera

Personally, I would not be giving her ANY of my time or attention until she meets me halfway. When she texts you for the fifth time, just reply with "I heard you the first four times. If you want to be my partner in all senses of the word, I'll be more than happy to help you out with that or anything else; as it stands, you don't, so I'm not."

And then add "This is what being single looks like."


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## stuart

turnera said:


> Personally, I would not be giving her ANY of my time or attention until she meets me halfway. When she texts you for the fifth time, just reply with "I heard you the first four times. If you want to be my partner in all senses of the word, I'll be more than happy to help you out with that or anything else; as it stands, you don't, so I'm not."
> 
> And then add "This is what being single looks like."


This is how I would have reacted in the past, but being there for her is a way to show I am changing, I was really selfish and understand why she left. Plus I will need help regarding child care in the future and will ask her. I know she will help when I ask. I am assuming she is on her own right now or I would behave differently.


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## Chaparral

I don't think its right to ignore texts about your children. Its certainly all right to ask her why she needs help IMHO.

The reason I suggested she may be testing you by telling you to date other people would be to see if you would do it. If she hasn't brought it up since, maybe that's a good sign. That is showing her you're only interested in her. Did you ask her then if she was going to date other people? Does she know what you will do if you find she is dating?

Many people think they can date during separation and they're spouse will linger and be plan B and at least remain good friends. If it were me, I would make it clear there would be nothing between forever if she started dating. But that's just the way I feel. I don't keep up with people that betray me.


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## cdbaker

Regarding the dating issue, you just need to decide what you are comfortable with or not. Imagine you were to ask her if her comment to you about dating other women meant that she now feels that she is entitled to see other men as well. Her answers will be:
1. Yes is/was/will be seeing other men or another guy in particular.
2. No, she has held to her vows and believes that it would still be fundamentally wrong/cheating if she were to get involved with anyone else.
3. Provides a non-answer, like, "Well I've been wanting to talk about that, but I'd prefer to discuss it when we work out the legal separation."
4. She might also say that no she has not been seeing anyone because she might feel she needs this time by herself to process and figure things out. Note the reason is for her own purposes, not because of the marriage, which basically means she's not seeing someone now, but does feel entitled to do so in the future whenever she feels ready.

Think about those scenarios and how you would respond to each. If she says she is/was/will be free to see other people and that's a deal breaker for you, then you might want to bring up the issue sooner than later according to the wonderful advice that Longwalk provided yesterday, especially since you really don't know when the legal separation discussion will come up, if ever. If it's not a dealbreaker, then I probably just wouldn't concern yourself about it and risk making things worse. 


As for your wife asking about child care, I agree that you shouldn't ignore your wife when she is asking about things that relate to your children. You need to be a great dad here no matter what, so you can't let this stuff with your wife risk impeding that. Plus being a great dad will of course help you look better in your wife's eyes as well. With that said, I think it's ok to occasionally miss a call from her intentionally, let it ring a few extra times, etc. just to show both of you that you aren't obsessed/needy. If a message/text relates to your kids though, I'd get on it right away. 

If it's just her asking for a favor of some kind though, I wouldn't suggest that you always say no, but I wouldn't always say yes either, and certainly don't cancel plans, rearrange your life for her, etc. now. Also, I REALLY wouldn't say what Turnera suggested above as far as "if you want to be my partner in every sense of the word..." or "This is what single life is like". I think the former statement would come off as inconsiderate of the pain she's gone through and the healing she needs to accomplish, and the latter would come off as cruel and cold.


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## stuart

Her dating is not a deal breaker for me, I want her back and I could deal with that if eventually we got back and worked together. As far as the seperation agreement she said she would send me a draft and I could see what I agree with and what I want to work on, she brought it up last on January 7th, I think she is overwhelmed and so it is taking time. I will bring it up when I get the draft. It's funny how life works, now that I am doing all this work I am dying inside not being able to do it with her together, so much that I read will say stuff like try this with your partner tonight. She will notice the work even being seperated, I hope it matters to her.


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## stuart

cdbaker said:


> Regarding the dating issue, you just need to decide what you are comfortable with or not. Imagine you were to ask her if her comment to you about dating other women meant that she now feels that she is entitled to see other men as well. Her answers will be:
> 1. Yes is/was/will be seeing other men or another guy in particular.
> 2. No, she has held to her vows and believes that it would still be fundamentally wrong/cheating if she were to get involved with anyone else.
> 3. Provides a non-answer, like, "Well I've been wanting to talk about that, but I'd prefer to discuss it when we work out the legal separation."
> 4. She might also say that no she has not been seeing anyone because she might feel she needs this time by herself to process and figure things out. Note the reason is for her own purposes, not because of the marriage, which basically means she's not seeing someone now, but does feel entitled to do so in the future whenever she feels ready.
> 
> Think about those scenarios and how you would respond to each. If she says she is/was/will be free to see other people and that's a deal breaker for you, then you might want to bring up the issue sooner than later according to the wonderful advice that Longwalk provided yesterday, especially since you really don't know when the legal separation discussion will come up, if ever. If it's not a dealbreaker, then I probably just wouldn't concern yourself about it and risk making things worse.
> 
> 
> As for your wife asking about child care, I agree that you shouldn't ignore your wife when she is asking about things that relate to your children. You need to be a great dad here no matter what, so you can't let this stuff with your wife risk impeding that. Plus being a great dad will of course help you look better in your wife's eyes as well. With that said, I think it's ok to occasionally miss a call from her intentionally, let it ring a few extra times, etc. just to show both of you that you aren't obsessed/needy. If a message/text relates to your kids though, I'd get on it right away.
> 
> If it's just her asking for a favor of some kind though, I wouldn't suggest that you always say no, but I wouldn't always say yes either, and certainly don't cancel plans, rearrange your life for her, etc. now. Also, I REALLY wouldn't say what Turnera suggested above as far as "if you want to be my partner in every sense of the word..." or "This is what single life is like". I think the former statement would come off as inconsiderate of the pain she's gone through and the healing she needs to accomplish, and the latter would come off as cruel and cold.


The favor she asked was if I she could drop our daughter off Monday morning because she had to go to work early for a meeting. I told it was fine because it was an important meeting for her. Well today I got an email asking me if I could pick up some basil for her while I am at work, I work at a food co-op, and she would get it tomorrow when she drops off our daughter. This is a favor i will not do, i wont even open the email. If she wants basil she will have to get up, leave the house, and get it for herself. If she wants to be seperated she must understand that i will not do her errands for her anymore.


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## turnera

Sounds good. Accommodate for your child, but nothing else. Don't let her eat cake.


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## Chaparral

You're hoping this is a trial separation. This basil thing is just acting petty to me.

Have you or have you not read mmslp yet?


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## Chaparral

Didn't you drive your wife off by being an a$$hole? How is being a jerk showing improvement?

She is not a cheater that we know of. I as far as I'm concerned, she was right to separate. She gave you years to grow up. You refused until she left. The ball is in your court and you're way behind.


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## stuart

Chaparral said:


> Didn't you drive your wife off by being an a$$hole? How is being a jerk showing improvement?
> 
> She is not a cheater that we know of. I as far as I'm concerned, she was right to separate. She gave you years to grow up. You refused until she left. The ball is in your court and you're way behind.[/Q
> 
> 
> Since she left I have spent too much time looking at stupid websites to win her back, analyze every email she sends, I am acting scared and I need to stop. I need to have a game plan, so to speak, that is simple and stick to it. I know what I did to run her off, and I want to change those behaviors. I need not to be a jerk or a$$hole. I need to respect her and give her want she is asking for now instead of being selfish. She wants space, she wants to heal, she wants me to be her friend, she wants me to treat her with respect and this is what I will do. I will be her friend, a true one, I will be respectful of her space as well as her feelings, thoughts, and actions. I will stop playing the game I am playing. I will show her I am changing, make no promises, and be patient. I will not talk of reconciling in any way and just keep building my relationship with her, a healthy, fun, exciting one. She is not cheating, I believe it 100% and will not question that anymore. I will find my happiness, work on a real, honest goal I want to achieve and keep myself busy, but be there when she needs and not be petty. Thank you for the post, I think I am focused now more than I have been these 4 months, no more games.


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## LongWalk

Basil?
Do you eat meals together?


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## stuart

LongWalk said:


> Basil?
> Do you eat meals together?


We hung out a few times as a family since she left, the last time my wife and daughter came to the house I made dinner and we watched a movie, this was 5 weeks ago and I made the mistake of asking her to work on the marriage with me, it was bad and I stopped soon after. So I think she is wary about it and so I am giving it time, I don't know for sure how to approach it at this point, weather I should ask or give it more time. The interactions since even though they are brief weather in person or phone or email are going good, I have no plans to push her on the marriage in any way, and so I set myself back to square one that night and am just proceeding slowly. Any opinions.


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## LongWalk

My point is basil is for some meal, perhaps a special treat? You are not invited. So why provide this helpful service?


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## stuart

LongWalk said:


> My point is basil is for some meal, perhaps a special treat? You are not invited. So why provide this helpful service?


I originally assumed basil, I hadn't opened the email and saw ba, it turned out to be barley flour and she wanted to make cookies with my daughter. She asked if I would do the favor and said that she would give me some of the cookies. I am 100% sure she is not seeing anyone. As far as us doing something together, should I ask, or should I give it some more time.


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## Suspecting2014

stuart said:


> LongWalk said:
> 
> 
> 
> My point is basil is for some meal, perhaps a special treat? You are not invited. So why provide this helpful service?
> 
> 
> 
> I originally assumed basil, I hadn't opened the email and saw ba, it turned out to be barley flour and she wanted to make cookies with my daughter. She asked if I would do the favor and said that she would give me some of the cookies. I am 100% sure she is not seeing anyone. As far as us doing something together, should I ask, or should I give it some more time.
Click to expand...

Tell her that you are more than willing to do something together but you wont ask, that is on her.


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## stuart

So my wife is home alone after dropping my daughter at a friends house at 2. At six she sends me an email with a link to funny dog pictures. So she is home alone, looking at you tube or facebook and she sends it to me. I am not mad, I am happy she is thinking of me, I just wonder why.


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## FormerVictim

stuart said:


> So my wife is home alone after dropping my daughter at a friends house at 2. At six she sends me an email with a link to funny dog pictures. So she is home alone, looking at you tube or facebook and she sends it to me. I am not mad, I am happy she is thinking of me, I just wonder why.


Find something awesome to do and start doing it.


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## cdbaker

stuart said:


> So my wife is home alone after dropping my daughter at a friends house at 2. At six she sends me an email with a link to funny dog pictures. So she is home alone, looking at you tube or facebook and she sends it to me. I am not mad, I am happy she is thinking of me, I just wonder why.


Eh, that's fine that you are happy. That is nice that she saw something that she thought you might enjoy and decided to forward it to you. That could be a positive thing, it could also just as easily mean nothing at all. Even spouses who feel fairly convinced that the marriage is doomed, or fully intending to divorce, often times will want to maintain cordiality with their future ex, so that could just as easily be the case here. She thought of you because she has many many years of habit operating within her that, when she see's something that is funny or funny in a particular way that you happen to enjoy, makes her think of you and sharing it. That's really all, its neither good or bad.

But as we've been saying, it would be best for you to not pause and dwell on such things at all. I can't blame you for doing so, because I know how tempting that is from personal experience, but it's really in your best interest that you make every effort to stop thinking that way. If you get a message like that, feel free to have a laugh, respond with, "Thanks, that IS funny." and then forget about it and move on with your day as quickly as possible


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## stuart

cdbaker said:


> Eh, that's fine that you are happy. That is nice that she saw something that she thought you might enjoy and decided to forward it to you. That could be a positive thing, it could also just as easily mean nothing at all. Even spouses who feel fairly convinced that the marriage is doomed, or fully intending to divorce, often times will want to maintain cordiality with their future ex, so that could just as easily be the case here. She thought of you because she has many many years of habit operating within her that, when she see's something that is funny or funny in a particular way that you happen to enjoy, makes her think of you and sharing it. That's really all, its neither good or bad.
> 
> But as we've been saying, it would be best for you to not pause and dwell on such things at all. I can't blame you for doing so, because I know how tempting that is from personal experience, but it's really in your best interest that you make every effort to stop thinking that way. If you get a message like that, feel free to have a laugh, respond with, "Thanks, that IS funny." and then forget about it and move on with your day as quickly as possible


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## stuart

Not dwelling on all the things my wife does is something I have to do, so is there any things that I should look out for that might be significant coming from her. Anything as far as what she says or does that might not seem obvious.


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## turnera

In regard to what?


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## stuart

turnera said:


> In regard to what?


not saying she wants to work on the marriage, but something that shows she is not sure about divorce. Anything that might say she is softening, or opening up.


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## turnera

IMO, you need to stop waiting and watching. Let her see you guys living a great life without her, let her MISS that life. The more you 'watch' the less real progress you're making.


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## cdbaker

turnera said:


> IMO, you need to stop waiting and watching. Let her see you guys living a great life without her, let her MISS that life. The more you 'watch' the less real progress you're making.


:iagree:

At this point, I am sure she tries EXTRA hard to make sure that she is not giving you any false messages, because she is probably incredibly turned off by how clingy you became when she has made the mistake of accidentally giving you false hope somehow. So instead, just make a decision that until she directly tells you that she is ready to work on reconciliation, or wants to move back home or go to marriage counseling, etc., that you will not accept any other possible "signs" that you might feel like you are seeing. Why? Because subconsciously you are DESPERATELY looking for any tiny minuscule sign from her that things might be improving, that she might be leaning towards reconciliation, and this will only cause you to make things worse. Just ignore them. As Turnera said above, focus on yourself and becoming a man whom she will wish she had in her life.

To clarify, that doesn't mean go out and try to SHOW her that you are a man she would want in her life, but actually BECOME that man without concerning yourself at all with whether she see's it or realizes it. Even though she probably doesn't want you to know this, there is little doubt that she does pay attention to you and is curious as to how you are handling the separation and living your life. If you are making genuine changes and becoming a more desirable male, she WILL notice without you trying to go out of your way to ensure that, because she will notice that effort as well and be turned off by it, believing it to be just a false front that you are putting on to impress/trick her.


So I say again, STOP OBSESSING over her, it will only make things worse for you and your marriage.


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## stuart

cdbaker said:


> :iagree:
> 
> At this point, I am sure she tries EXTRA hard to make sure that she is not giving you any false messages, because she is probably incredibly turned off by how clingy you became when she has made the mistake of accidentally giving you false hope somehow. So instead, just make a decision that until she directly tells you that she is ready to work on reconciliation, or wants to move back home or go to marriage counseling, etc., that you will not accept any other possible "signs" that you might feel like you are seeing. Why? Because subconsciously you are DESPERATELY looking for any tiny minuscule sign from her that things might be improving, that she might be leaning towards reconciliation, and this will only cause you to make things worse. Just ignore them. As Turnera said above, focus on yourself and becoming a man whom she will wish she had in her life.
> 
> To clarify, that doesn't mean go out and try to SHOW her that you are a man she would want in her life, but actually BECOME that man without concerning yourself at all with whether she see's it or realizes it. Even though she probably doesn't want you to know this, there is little doubt that she does pay attention to you and is curious as to how you are handling the separation and living your life. If you are making genuine changes and becoming a more desirable male, she WILL notice without you trying to go out of your way to ensure that, because she will notice that effort as well and be turned off by it, believing it to be just a false front that you are putting on to impress/trick her.
> 
> 
> So I say again, STOP OBSESSING over her, it will only make things worse for you and your marriage.


I know what you are saying makes sense and is the way to be, it is just very hard. It's been a cold, snowy winter where I am, and it's hard being in the house so much. I have a lot of time, money is tight and on a daily basis my wife was there, now I am alone a lot. Even when I am at work, I feel alone. I do play basketball a couple times a week, and I used to love it, now I seem to go because I know I need the exercise, and company. I havn't had a drink since she left and I am excited about that. I am excited about my therapy sessions, my behavior has changed dramatically since she left, but I have a long way to go. I just need to get busy with something that is important to me, so I don't have as much time and I stop obsessing. Being alone and doing the work on myself is ok, I realize it needed to be like this as I wasn't doing it otherwise; my wife leaving for this reason is good, but the thought of not being able to bring this new me, the real me that she knew, back into an intimate relationship with her is tearing me apart. 

I am doing my best to fake it until I make it as far as my wife goes. I do not talk about anything regarding us, and always smile, and listen to her. I will stop looking for signs, I guess things happen when you least expect it anyway, so I know I cant wait. 

My daughter is amazing, I have to be there for her, so I will get there soon. The emotions from grieving are sometimes overwhelming, the rollercoaster of a lifetime. My daughter has so many interests , I need to be more involved with her. I see her and I see what she is missing, I need to stop that. I will get there soon, I know who I am, and I know deep down I am a loving , caring , fun person and that person will emerge soon. 

Thanks for your post, it helped a lot.


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## LongWalk

Play more basketball. 

Do other workouts. 

Get involved in sports for your daughter.


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## turnera

Is it a two-story house? Walking up and down stairs is great exercise...


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## cdbaker

Believe me, I've been there, I know how hard it is. You've just got to fight through it and know that life will get better one way or the other, for both you and your daughter. Keep trying to focus on activities, socializing, etc. to keep yourself distracted if need be. For me, I'm a bit of a video game nerd. Go buy and Xbox/Grand Theft Auto V and go nuts! Sometimes fake video game violence can be a nice stress reliever! Haha.


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## stuart

I went to a college basketball game with a friend last night. for most of the two hours I was able to watch the game, enjoy it, and not think about my W.

It's been five months now since she left, it's also five months since I had a drink. I am excited about that because for that time I haven't wanted a drink, and am actually turned off by it. 

Had therapy session today. I am also excited about how that's going, it's been four months since I started; I had never done it before.

Between not drinking, and what I am working on in therapy, my behavior is very different than five months ago. I am also trying to be more positive, my negativity is something my wife couldn't take anymore.

I see my daughter tomorrow, going to be positive, and happy even if I don't feel it. Still haven't gotten any draft of the separation agreement from my wife, seven weeks ago she said she was anxious because it wasn't getting done and she would send me a draft. I guess the longer it takes the better.


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## Chaparral

Have you been reading any other threads?


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## stuart

Chaparral said:


> Have you been reading any other threads?


Yes. Why do you ask, is there one particuler one I should read.


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## LongWalk

Bagdon


----------



## stuart

LongWalk said:


> Bagdon


It was good to read bagdon's thread to see how he handled it. I think I am in a tougher sitch since we are separated. Neither one of us made a lot of money, but my wife got a promotion and raise last year and this made it easier for her to leave. My wife is very open to the universe, a little hippie in attitude and what matters most to her is not money. We moved ten years ago to a better place to raise our daughter and my wife got a decent job that she liked and when we got there I got a job around her schedule, it is just a job. I did a lot of childcare, cooking, house stuff. I think my wife appreciated all I did, being a housewife is not what my wife wanted my any means, she loves working.

So now I am in a situation where I don't have any experience that is useful, I didn't finish college, and my job is just that, and I don't make much, my wife will have to pay me support if, when we make things official. Taking this into account, if I treated my wife how I now know I should of, she would have been very happy in the marriage. 

So the changes I have made so far are to quit drinking, and work on those behavioral problems I had. I am in good shape, have never been overweight, and look younger than I am. I am starting the process of going back to school for an RN degree because it is something I want to do, maybe it'll turn her on too.

Today she dropped my daughter off at 10am; before she got there I cleaned the snow off the car so she would think I was out, maybe coming home from spending the night somewhere; Sunday morning before 10am I would not normally have gone out yet. My wife asked me if I had been out yet because the roads are slippery. I told her no, which was true, but I think she noticed the clean car, when I did go out I noticed the roads weren't slippery. When she picked up our daughter, I was leaving for work; I had on my new glasses (I never wore glasses before, got them after she left) and my hair was looking good, a little long, curly, just how it was when we met, she loved it then. Anyway she asked me twice how I was doing, I said good, and I noticed her checking me out and smiling. I said have a good day and left for work. It finally didn't hurt to see her.

Anyway, it seems like I am detaching some, I don't initiate contact, I respond to hers. When she drops off the kid, I don't go out to the car to see her, if she wants to see me she can come into the house. I am going to treat her with respect, and be supportive. I am going to hang in there because I love her and want to be a family again. I am going to be patient and give her space and anything else she wants, but I am going to start to move on. If being with me is what she wants, when it happens she will have an amazing husband who knows everything she desires, and I will rock her world. If not, I am starting to understand that it will be her loss.


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## stuart

My wife and I are vegan, we have been for 25 yrs.; it is something we did together as we had both wanted to before we met, but didn't. Only 2% of the population is vegan (for us it is akin to a religion), and I know I couldn't be with someone who wasn't, maybe that helps to keep us single for now. Anyway, someone I know went to a vegan bakery while on vacation and brought me back a couple of things. Do I share it with my wife, I would like to, we don't often get to try new vegan treats. My hesitation is that the one time I gave her a small present dring the seperation was in December and she immediately brought up the seperation agreement (I got the hint) , but early on in the seperation she said she would appreciate me being her friend and not doing anything that has an agenda, like giving her leftovers. So, the question is is this a present or a leftover; should I not give her any and thus avoid a problem if she takes it the wrong way. 

Also the person who got it for me is a pretty, young girl (there is nothing between us, she got for other vegans as well) and I am not sure where that might go.


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## Sammy64

stuart said:


> My wife and I are vegan, we have been for 25 yrs.; it is something we did together as we had both wanted to before we met, but didn't. Only 2% of the population is vegan (for us it is akin to a religion), and I know I couldn't be with someone who wasn't, maybe that helps to keep us single for now. Anyway, someone I know went to a vegan bakery while on vacation and brought me back a couple of things. Do I share it with my wife, I would like to, we don't often get to try new vegan treats. My hesitation is that the one time I gave her a small present dring the seperation was in December and she immediately brought up the seperation agreement (I got the hint) , but early on in the seperation she said she would appreciate me being her friend and not doing anything that has an agenda, like giving her leftovers. So, the question is is this a present or a leftover; should I not give her any and thus avoid a problem if she takes it the wrong way.
> 
> Also the person who got it for me is a pretty, young girl (there is nothing between us, she got for other vegans as well) and I am not sure where that might go.



I would say YES, as long as there are no strings attached to that treat.


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## Chaparral

And do not lie about where you got it.


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## stuart

My W was excited to get the baked goods, I told her where I got it. We were both in good moods tonight, maybe we were both faking it. Anyway, she said sometime in the spring she wants to order something from this bakery for the three us, they ship, although it is expensive. She thanked me, she was excited, I told her to enjoy them. She told me about her tkd class, and then we said good night. Very simple, we were both smiling, I wanted so badly to grab her and kiss her, obviously I didn't, but I wanted to.


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## turnera

Sometimes that's what women want, too.


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## stuart

Thursday sucks, off from work. I used to clean, do laundry, cook, run errands, and be here when my kid got home from school. Don't have much to do, and my kid goes to my W after school and I don't see her until Sunday. I miss my daughter so much when she's not here. My W must miss her when I have her, what does she tell herself to make it seem right. 

My W just emailed me that she wants to meet in a couple of weeks to work on the seperation agreement, and my heart just broke again. I guess I will have to do the agreement and see what happens a year after its done. Any advice on how to proceed, I was hoping it might not happen like this, that she was having second thoughts. Do I keep on working on myself, be patient, and maybe something changes her mind over the course of the next year. 

I finally, really get what matters. She put up with me hoping I would change, and now that I am she is done. I am not giving up on myself, might she finally see that and trust it at some point. I miss my family, and I don't want to cry anymore. At some point do I talk to her about what I am feeling, and what my family means to me .


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## lenzi

stuart said:


> Thursday sucks, off from work. I used to clean, do laundry, cook, run errands, and be here when my kid got home from school. Don't have much to do


It's an adjustment, going from being a full time parent/husband, to being a single father with visitation. It gets better.



stuart said:


> I miss my daughter so much when she's not here.


You get used to the new routine. After a while, it doesn't sting so much. You have less time together, but the time you do have, is quality time. At least, that's how it's supposed to work. When my daughter was younger, and she would visit, she'd get 100% of my attention during the relatively short time we spent together. As compared to maybe 20% of my attention when we all lived together. It averages out.. somehow.



stuart said:


> My W must miss her when I have her, what does she tell herself to make it seem right.


You need to steer your thoughts away from what your ex is thinking, saying, etc. 



stuart said:


> Any advice on how to proceed, I was hoping it might not happen like this, that she was having second thoughts. Do I keep on working on myself, be patient, and maybe something changes her mind over the course of the next year.


Pretty much, yeah but don't put too much thought into hoping things will change. That can be on the back burner but don't fool yourself into thinking it's a good possibility. Act like it's over. Be pleasantly surprised if things change but do not in any way expect or hope for it. 



stuart said:


> At some point do I talk to her about what I am feeling, and what my family means to me .


No. She doesn't give a rat's ass about what you're feeling and about what your family means to you. Don't even think about going there with her. If and when the opportunity arises, and it's gotta come from HER, then let it be about her, not about you.


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## stuart

I get that it would have to be about her, what I am feeling has a lot to do with her. I finally get what she has been feeling, and what hurts me a lot is how I treated her and made her feel. A lot of my pain is knowing the pain she has had. I wouldn't initiate this conversation anytime soon, but later in the year if it doesn' t come from her, and nothing changes, then theres nothing else to lose anyway.


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## lenzi

stuart said:


> I get that it would have to be about her, what I am feeling has a lot to do with her.


You still don't get it. If you make it about what you are feeling, you will LOSE. It doesn't matter that what you're feeling has a lot to do with her. It's about what SHE is feeling.

Hopefully you'll figure this out before you get the opportunity to speak with her, if it happens at all.

If the conversation isn't initiated by her, then you will gain nothing by starting it yourself. 

Best thing you can do is back off completely and stay there until and unless she comes to you.


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## stuart

lenzi said:


> You still don't get it. If you make it about what you are feeling, you will LOSE. It doesn't matter that what you're feeling has a lot to do with her. It's about what SHE is feeling.
> 
> Hopefully you'll figure this out before you get the opportunity to speak with her, if it happens at all.
> 
> If the conversation isn't initiated by her, then you will gain nothing by starting it yourself.
> 
> Best thing you can do is back off completely and stay there until and unless she comes to you.


Your right, I am just being desperate. I just need to be patient, and not expect anything. I have backed off for some time now, I don't talk about me or us. I like to post here what I am feeling like, but I do get it, what people are saying, and I don't bring those feelings back to her. I would be surprised if she didn't initiate any serious conversation if I continue to back off or is that not such a surprise.


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## lenzi

stuart said:


> I would be surprised if she didn't initiate any serious conversation if I continue to back off or is that not such a surprise.


Exactly.

:scratchhead:


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## stuart

I don't even know where to begin with doing a legal seperation agreement. Our schedules worked great for childcare. The way we did it these last five months my wife had to ask me a bunch of times to watch the kid on her day and it will be harder in the summer.

My wife will have to pay me support and still money will be tight. Why do an agreement and wait a year, why not just file for divorce if thats what she wants? What if I didn't agree to do the agreement? I will do it, because there really isn't any choice, it's what she wants. 

I am going to take my time as I can't think straight, and she has been planning this for who knows how long. I havn't even spoken to a lawyer, she has one. I want to see what we come up with first, and then I will talk to one. 

It still doesn't feel real, 27 yrs. together, all I want to do is love my W, but instead I have to get to a place where I am ok that it's over. I have to let her go and it feels wrong. It's funny when we interact, we get along, we smile, joke, but in the end it's all sad.


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## LongWalk

Physically change the way you appear to her. To yourself. To everyone. You have quit drinking. That is going to show in your appearance.

Are you working out? Getting in really good shape will make you feel better about yourself.


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## stuart

Help, W sent me email tonight saying;

So I have to say this, although I may be way off base, but I've always followed my instincts, and it's usually served me well, so I'm going to go for it even if I look kinda stupid;

1- I launched into the separation agreement email without any preface and that may have been somewhat shocking, especially since I hadn't broached the topic in so long. I don't know where your head is at these days, because you aren't sharing (which is fine), but I hope I didn't hurt you. I didn't mean to, I know I was in a lot of pain for a very long time when we were together, but I still don't want to hurt you now. I just want to get all the financials set up so we both have what we need.

Having said that, 

2-Please don't decide to " buy more time" by putting this meeting off. I'm sure that's not your intention, but I have to say it so I feel better. We've been separated over 5 months and will have a year until the agreement turns into a divorce, and if we finish this document by the end of March, it'll be the 6 months you asked for initially. It doesn't have to be that long, either one of us can file for divorce at any time. However, this way will be less expensive and less traumatic for the 3 of us. I don't see the need to rush once the separation is set, but if you have a plan to wait to do the legal separation in the hopes that my mind will change before we get there, I'll notice and that will tell me nothing has changed because you're trying to assert control despite knowing the impact to my well-being. Consider how that will impact our relationship. Consider how it impacted things when you did that in the past. Again, my apologies if that's not your intention.


I don't know how to respond, this is the most important communication we've had in a couple of months. I want to do the agreement because it is important to her, I still love her very much, and care very much about her well-being; more so now that I realize how I have been in the past. She said a year before the agreement becomes a divorce, but then said I don't see the need to rush once the separation is set. Does she want the agreement in place for safety, but is still open depending on how the year goes. She said she doesn't know where my head is at because I am not sharing, do I let her know I was giving her space, but I want to share, and I want her to share if that is what she wants. She said if I put off the agreement it will show I haven't changed, and am still controlling, and think how that will impact our relationship. Is she wanting me to change so we do have a relationship.

I know I need not to obsess about every word, but this email is different than the others.


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## LongWalk

She wants a divorce but does not want to just demand that you reach the finish line straight away after the starter gun fires. But make no mistake the separation agreement is the start of the race to the end.

Read a thread like Awakening2012's. She a has more than one thread. She is a very nice lady but drank and her ex did not give a second chance, though she got sober.

A12 is into CrossFit and stays in really good shape. She posted pictures of herself hiking in South America. She hasn't found anyone new, I don't think.

I would bet that your marriage cannot be saved. However, there is hope if you somehow manage to become the man who makes your wife feel secure. You also have rekindle passion. Tough.

Why not agree to the separation agreement. Indeed, even the divorce if that is what she would prefer. You will co-parent so meeting up will still happen. If are happy, you may attract her. But the needy, hurting guy has no chance really. If you are sober, you will not be exactly the person your wife is trying to escape.

Why not ask her if she wants to move straight to divorce? Painful to take such a step but it may actually make you stronger.


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## stuart

LongWalk said:


> She wants a divorce but does not want to just demand that you reach the finish line straight away after the starter gun fires. But make no mistake the separation agreement is the start of the race to the end.
> 
> Read a thread like Awakening2012's. She a has more than one thread. She is a very nice lady but drank and her ex did not give a second chance, though she got sober.
> 
> A12 is into CrossFit and stays in really good shape. She posted pictures of herself hiking in South America. She hasn't found anyone new, I don't think.
> 
> I would bet that your marriage cannot be saved. However, there is hope if you somehow manage to become the man who makes your wife feel secure. You also have rekindle passion. Tough.
> 
> Why not agree to the separation agreement. Indeed, even the divorce if that is what she would prefer. You will co-parent so meeting up will still happen. If are happy, you may attract her. But the needy, hurting guy has no chance really. If you are sober, you will not be exactly the person your wife is trying to escape.
> 
> Why not ask her if she wants to move straight to divorce? Painful to take such a step but it may actually make you stronger.


Make her feel secure and rekindle passion, sounds good to me. Sober is who I will be for now on, I think the secure part will be harder than the passion part.

I will work with her to get the agreement done, and the D if she wants. I just want to be with her, not need her. I think getting the agreement done will help me to move forward and become happier, not needy, and hurting. 

I don't mind not going right for D because she is giving me the year for some reason, like she said she could have filed right away herself, and she did say I don't see the need to rush once the separation is set, so lets see how the year goes. I am starting to actually feel a little relieved knowing the agreement will be in place, I think I will interact with her better. Today I applied to a local community college in hopes of getting an RN degree, many older people have gone through the program, and the school has a 100% job placement. It will take a few years, but I am excited about my future. I have been studying for some classes for 3 months now to get ready.


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## LongWalk

Of course if you are earning more money, that will improve your chances of R.


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## stuart

LongWalk said:


> Of course if you are earning more money, that will improve your chances of R.


Money is not the most important thing to my W, now I was controlling with the money and so that would be important to her. I thought I was doing a good thing trying to save for our future, but I can see now it was very wrong how I went about it. My W said early on during the separation that if we got back it would have to be a new beginning and she would have to have financial freedom, and I agree. I think more important than making more money would be her seeing me accomplish an important goal and being happy and excited about my future, that would be more important to me as well.


----------



## stuart

Does anyone think this is a time to talk about whats in my head since my W mentioned it, or just stick to the business of doing the agreement. How do I word it so she understands that I want the agreement because its what she needs for her well-being, so she knows its about her and not about me.


----------



## turnera

Of course it's not the time. She needs to observe you being ok being by yourself so she thinks you aren't as desperate as you really are.


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## Chaparral

turnera said:


> Of course it's not the time. She needs to observe you being ok being by yourself so she thinks you aren't as desperate as you really are.


If she's accusing him of not sharing, its a sign she is unhappy with this. I think he should simply be honest and tell her he is not sharing because she did not want him to. The whole message from her makes it look like they are both misreading the other. 

Aamf, not talking may be why she is now pushing the separation i,.e. the divorce paperwork.

I think he should tell her she left and he was just trying not to push her. That he's available to talk any time. It sounds to me like she thinks he's losing interest in the marriage.


----------



## Suspecting2014

Make clear to her how you feel and ask all you want to know? If there is a xhance? If D will happen no matter what? Etc.


----------



## stuart

Chaparral said:


> If she's accusing him of not sharing, its a sign she is unhappy with this. I think he should simply be honest and tell her he is not sharing because she did not want him to. The whole message from her makes it look like they are both misreading the other.
> 
> Aamf, not talking may be why she is now pushing the separation i,.e. the divorce paperwork.
> 
> I think he should tell her she left and he was just trying not to push her. That he's available to talk any time. It sounds to me like she thinks he's losing interest in the marriage.


I agree, I think she said it for a reason.

I was honest and told her I was not sharing because I didn't think she wanted to now. She had asked for space, and I didn't want to push her further away. That i was available to share, talk anytime, I wanted to, and I was here for her to share.

One problem in our marriage is that I assumed that she knew how I felt, not sharing now is similar. I wont share how needy, desperate I am. If it happens I will let her lead the talk, listen, and be a man.


----------



## stuart

Suspecting2014 said:


> Make clear to her how you feel and ask all you want to know? If there is a xhance? If D will happen no matter what? Etc.


I hope this is the start of us really communicating. She knows I want us to be together, so I wont push. I will take it slowly, see how in unfolds, but I dont need to push her into giving me any answers regarding D or if theres a chance. I am not as needy as I have been, I am taking control of my life, it will show if we do indeed start to communicate.


----------



## LongWalk

Did you read Awakening2012's thread?


----------



## stuart

LongWalk said:


> Did you read Awakening2012's thread?


Not yet, why.


----------



## sammy3

Stuart, 

You sound so much like my husband and I can relate so well with your wife in a lot of ways. 

So much I dont even know where to begin, but Ill try with a bit.

Don't nice her back. My h has been doing this to me for over 3 years now... It hasn't worked, wont work, and has driven me farther away... 

Being separated my husband has worked on himself in many ways that he thought needed to, thou he wasn't a bad guy. ((he just did a bad thing that cost him his 28 yr marriage)), but some of the new things I don't like, because I don't know who he is anymore. 

He doesn't "share his personal life" and neither do mine with him any longer, so now we really don't know each other, and this is a man I've known and live with longer than I lived with myself!

We haven't grown closer as a couple, even though we do have serious conversation about love life and the pursuits of happiness, as he comes into the house every few days a month. We don't let it become personal, as neither want to hurt each other more than we already do. Weird yes I know. It is very hard uncoupling after so many years. 

My hub hoped after time being on my own it too help the relationship to heal toward R. But it did the opposite. 

The legal separation is a very smart way of going, if that the route. We just winged it... I am so in the dark as far as his paycheck, bonuses, owed debt, credit card, passwords... not a good way to live. This is the big difference thou, is your wife. She has the balls to speak the truth to you, she not living in limbo... but it sounds like you are setting yourself up to doing exactly that, and let me tell you, limbo becomes hell. 

My advise would be, give your wife what she wants, go no contact with her except with your daughter. Don't txt, ask her about her day, don't call to chat...it wont work, just let her be, and if in time her heart soften she'll come back to you, thou it may then be to late for life keeps moving for both of you. 



~sammy


----------



## jin

I would be honest with her and tell her what you want which is to reconcile and stay together. 

If she doesn't want that then consider offering her a divorce so you can both have a clean break and start rebuilding your lives. A one year separation would not help if she has made up her mind. Dragging things on over time may delay your recovery. 

And who knows you guys could possibly get back together even age divorce but from the sounds of things that won't happen while you are in the process of separation.


----------



## stuart

jin said:


> I would be honest with her and tell her what you want which is to reconcile and stay together.
> 
> If she doesn't want that then consider offering her a divorce so you can both have a clean break and start rebuilding your lives. A one year separation would not help if she has made up her mind. Dragging things on over time may delay your recovery.
> 
> And who knows you guys could possibly get back together even age divorce but from the sounds of things that won't happen while you are in the process of separation.


She knows I want to stay together, I think the agreement in place will help her to figure out what she wants, and make it easier for us to communicate. She does not trust any changes I made yet , and another year of seeing it might help, especially if we are gettinng closer over that time. We were together so long, a year is not that long, and I am moving on in terms of my life, I dont want to be with anyone else now anyway.


----------



## LongWalk

Awaken2012 is very nice lady who sobered up but her ex was done and wouldn't let her back in. She didn't want anyone else either.


----------



## jin

A couple comments. Focus on what you want not what she wants (or what you think she wants). 

You are assuming what will help her. She has walked away and sounds like she is well on her way to rebuilding her new life. In fact she sounds to be in a better place than you from her email to you and is concerned about how you will cope. Which is thoughtful of her but you are a grown man and don't need her sympathy or concern. 

I'm sorry for you. But I think you need to let go. Let her know you accept its over, apologise for the past, for her benefit (and yours) offer a divorce now and let her know you would welcome her back if it's what she wants.


----------



## turnera

Chaparral said:


> If she's accusing him of not sharing, its a sign she is unhappy with this. * I think he should simply be honest and tell her he is not sharing because she did not want him to*.


IF he uses the bolded sentence, I'm ok with it. But if he instead does what he usually seems to do, which is whine and pout and say 'why won't you pick me?', nothing will change. She will be turned off.


----------



## stuart

My W latest email,

I'm not angry or upset you weren't sharing, I figured you were doing it because that is what you needed to do; I was just making the point that I wasn't assuming anything.I did say that I needed space, and I do, as it is hard for me to frequently hear that you want to get back together. I honestly don't know what the future holds...how can anyone know that? But it's not where my head is right now. So when I said that when I want you to be my friend, i means that making a case for reconciliation stresses me out really badly because it feels like previous attempts, "Look I'm sad right now and have decided not to do bad stuff anymore; why can't you just forgive me already?" I know you really mean it now and you're doing good things, and I hope you stick with it and are doing it for you (genuinely) and not in an attempt to prove to me that you've changed. Because it's not really about that now. We've shared so much of our lives, and have this history together, and we care about each other, and that's important. We both need to feel safe, and be amazing parents, and that's important. We're family and always will be. I don't want to think about the future right now, the present is challenging enough! I want to enjoy the present, which I didn't for so long.I want to revel in little pleasures. I want to feel safe. I want to take care of our daughter. And I want you to be happy, to find yourself. And I'd like it if you'd share some things....interesting things going on in your life, etc.I would like it if wecould do things like that, if your comfortable.


So, this is where I am at. I realize that what we had is over, but as my wife said no one knows what the future holds, and I still want that future to hold a new beginning for us. My wife said twice she wants to feel safe, and I think the seperation agreement and me not trying to convince her of anything will help that. I will continue to work on myself because that is for me and my future. So I need advice on how to proceed for the next year. Do I just coparent with my W or if I can , should I be friends with her. I think it would be good for my daughter if the 3 of us can spend time together. If I can be friends with my W while not trying to convince her of a future together, is that better than just coparenting. I am letting her go because that is what we both need right now, but I want to make her feel safe, and I want there to be a future for us.


----------



## Chaparral

Seems pretty obvious what she said. Are you doing anything worth sharing?


----------



## stuart

Chaparral said:


> Seems pretty obvious what she said. Are you doing anything worth sharing?


I believe she is being honest, and so when you say obvious, I take it to mean that she doesn't really know what the future holds for us, and she is just living her life as it is now. Does her wanting me to share, is that something good, is it something to build upon.

As far as sharing goes, what would be appropriate, I dont want to tell her how I am changing, I dont want to do anything that doesnt somehow bring us closer or makes her feel safer with me.


----------



## turnera

stuart said:


> My W latest email,
> 
> I'm not angry or upset you weren't sharing, I figured you were doing it because that is what you needed to do; I was just making the point that I wasn't assuming anything.I did say that I needed space, and I do, as it is hard for me to frequently hear that you want to get back together. I honestly don't know what the future holds...how can anyone know that? But it's not where my head is right now. So when I said that when I want you to be my friend, i means that making a case for reconciliation stresses me out really badly because it feels like previous attempts, "Look I'm sad right now and have decided not to do bad stuff anymore; why can't you just forgive me already?" I know you really mean it now and you're doing good things, and I hope you stick with it and are doing it for you (genuinely) and not in an attempt to prove to me that you've changed. Because it's not really about that now. We've shared so much of our lives, and have this history together, and we care about each other, and that's important. We both need to feel safe, and be amazing parents, and that's important. We're family and always will be. I don't want to think about the future right now, the present is challenging enough! I want to enjoy the present, which I didn't for so long.I want to revel in little pleasures. I want to feel safe. I want to take care of our daughter. And I want you to be happy, to find yourself. And I'd like it if you'd share some things....interesting things going on in your life, etc.I would like it if wecould do things like that, if your comfortable.
> 
> 
> So, this is where I am at. I realize that what we had is over, but as my wife said no one knows what the future holds, and I still want that future to hold a new beginning for us. My wife said twice she wants to feel safe, and I think the seperation agreement and me not trying to convince her of anything will help that. I will continue to work on myself because that is for me and my future. So I need advice on how to proceed for the next year. Do I just coparent with my W or if I can , should I be friends with her. I think it would be good for my daughter if the 3 of us can spend time together. If I can be friends with my W while not trying to convince her of a future together, is that better than just coparenting. I am letting her go because that is what we both need right now, but I want to make her feel safe, and I want there to be a future for us.


Pretty much exactly what we have been telling you: back off.

You make her feel safe by no longer asking her about getting together. Period. Do whatever else you want, but drop the R talk.


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## stuart

turnera said:


> Pretty much exactly what we have been telling you: back off.
> 
> You make her feel safe by no longer asking her about getting together. Period. Do whatever else you want, but drop the R talk.


I have not talked about the R in two months, there were a few times before that when i tried to convince her, but in the last 2 months i have not talked at all which is why she said i had not been sharing anything. 

I believe my W email and so she doesn't know about our future together, and I am fine with that. I want us to start a new beginning and so I need to figure out a long term plan. My W says she knows i am doing good work, she sees the changes, but I know she doesn't trust them yet. She also said twice she wants to feel safe.

So I want to make my W feel safe. I will continue to not talk about R, and do the seperation agreement, both will make her feel safe. I will continue to work on myself, that is for my future. I think we should be friends and spend some time together as a family. I think it would be good for my daughter, and I think it will bring us closer because I will not pressure her in any way. My W wants me to share, and I think it will help us, more so than if I go no contact or if I say lets divorce right now. I realize what we had is over, and it should be, but I believe we can start something new, and it can start as friends now. I am ok with that, I dont feel the need to be needy or desperate anymore, just her friend.


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## turnera

You think, you think, and you think.

You are still trying to put what YOU think and want to the forefront. 

Look at how you are still trying to control your wife:


stuart said:


> I have not talked about the R in two months, there were *a few times before that when i tried to convince her*, but in the last 2 months i have not talked at all which is why she said i had not been sharing anything.
> 
> I believe my W email and so she doesn't know about our future together, and *I am fine with that. I want us to start a new beginning* and so *I need to figure out a long term plan*. My W says she knows i am doing good work, she sees the changes, but I know she doesn't trust them yet. She also said twice she wants to feel safe.
> 
> * So I want to make my W feel safe*. I will continue to not talk about R, and do the seperation agreement, *both will make her feel safe*. I will continue to work on myself, that is for my future. *I think we should be friends and spend some time together* as a family. *I think it would be good for my daughter*, and *I think it will bring us closer* because I will not pressure her in any way. My W wants me to share, and *I think it will help us*, more so than if I go no contact or if I say let's divorce right now. I realize what we had is over, and it should be, but *I believe we can start something new*, and it can *start as friends now. I am ok with that*, I dont feel the need to be needy or desperate anymore, just her friend.


You're 'ok' with it because you STILL plan to get her back. Everything you post reeks of 'how do I get her back' or 'this will get her back' or 'that will make her want me' or 'I'll take this NOW but I'll get more in the end.' 

Trust me, if WE see it, SHE sees it.

You're not detached, not even close, and her letter PROVES it. She is watching you like a hawk for these signs that we see, that she sees. No matter how much you pretend - to us, to her, to yourself - that you're ok walking away, it's patently obvious that you have only one goal - to make her want you.

And that is the most unattractive trait you could possibly have.

I really am trying to help you. I really am trying to get you to see that as long as your only goal is to get her back, YOU WILL FAIL. She's already told you as much. You just won't hear it.


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## stuart

turnera said:


> You think, you think, and you think.
> 
> You are still trying to put what YOU think and want to the forefront.
> 
> Look at how you are still trying to control your wife:
> 
> You're 'ok' with it because you STILL plan to get her back. Everything you post reeks of 'how do I get her back' or 'this will get her back' or 'that will make her want me' or 'I'll take this NOW but I'll get more in the end.'
> 
> Trust me, if WE see it, SHE sees it.
> 
> You're not detached, not even close, and her letter PROVES it. She is watching you like a hawk for these signs that we see, that she sees. No matter how much you pretend - to us, to her, to yourself - that you're ok walking away, it's patently obvious that you have only one goal - to make her want you.
> 
> And that is the most unattractive trait you could possibly have.
> 
> I really am trying to help you. I really am trying to get you to see that as long as your only goal is to get her back, YOU WILL FAIL. She's already told you as much. You just won't hear it.



I really am still not detached, have the agenda of trying to get her back, I still love her very much, and it's been very hard for me. I do want us to be together in a loving R, so it's hard to let go. I know you are trying to help me, I really do appreciate and need it right now and that last post jolted me pretty good. 

How do I truly let her go, and still be friends and share with her, I lost my W, but she was also my best friend and I don't want to lose that too. What do I have to do to truly walk away. The separation agreement will help me too, so something is concrete as far as my daughter, and finances. It will make it easier for me to start focusing on myself. What else do I have to do, this separation I guess is similar to going into shock for me, and so it's hard to process, and know whats right and do whats right.

Its also hard to step back and understand what my W is saying. She is being honest, she always has been, but I am obsessing on every word. As an onlooker what is she saying, maybe if I could process it , I can move forward. Is she saying she wants to be friends, the old R is over, and anything is possible in the future.


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## turnera

What she's saying is that when you were dating, you were fun, she was attracted to you, but as time went on, you've become obsessed with keeping her and that creeps her out. A woman's number one goal is almost always safety; it has to be, being the weaker sex. So women are always on high alert for stalkers. And you're turning into one.

She feels like she's no longer just the person you love; she's the OBJECT you're intent on keeping. And the more you show that, the more she wants nothing to do with you.

For her to want you again, you have to go back to that person she once dated, who could have walked away from her.

And to do that, you simply MUST get your own life. Old friends, new friends, take classes, become a volunteer, get new hobbies...become your own whole person. She simply MUST see you doing that, becoming a person who loves his OWN life, not just the life that SHE completes. 

It will take time. And I'm talking at LEAST another full year apart, most likely. Women are very slow to trust. Women always want to see that you have changed the core being, the 'inner' you. We know how easy it is for men to go on the hunt, to say the right things, to 'look' right. We also know it's likely an act, part of the hunt.

Until she can see you HAPPILY living the new life you have formed that doesn't include her except as the mother of your kids, she won't consider you again.

And the good thing is that in the meantime, YOU will have discovered a great life that doesn't depend on her. Win/win for both of you.


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## stuart

turnera said:


> you simply MUST get your own life, ...become your own whole person. She simply MUST see you doing that, becoming a person who loves his OWN life, not just the life that SHE completes.
> 
> It will take time. And I'm talking at LEAST another full year apart, most likely. Women are very slow to trust. Women always want to see that you have changed the core being, the 'inner' you.
> 
> Until she can see you HAPPILY living the new life you have formed that doesn't include her except as the mother of your kids, she won't consider you again.
> 
> I finally get it. Your last two posts have made it clear to me that I am focused on the wrong things. Looking at my W emails and what she has said to me these 5 months, she has told me the truth, the same thing you have been telling me, but it is now clear.
> 
> I need to focus on my life, on becoming a whole, happy person who does not need my W to make me happy. It will take time for me to get there, but I will, and it will take time for her to trust it is real, but without this, there is no chance of any R in the future. So now, I will be her friend with no agenda, I will share new, interesting things with her, and we will do the best we can for our amazing daughter.


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## DayOne

Dropped back in to see how you're doing, unfortunately it seems to be that nothing has changed. We've (TAM) have said from the beginning to back off and work on you, but you're still focused on her. Despite our advice. 

You're pushing her, whether you see it or not (unfortunately the latter is the case). 

And this means you're not moving forward. And that's a great pity. You seem like a decent fella, who's obsessed with making your wife WANT you again. It just doesn't work that way. You change you, and perhaps maybe she decides you're worth another shot. That's how it's works, pure and simple. 

I hope that, eventually, you can come to understand this. But from your continued posts, you still have to "get it". Until then, you're on the path to destruction.


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## stuart

So, I responded to my W email, the part at the end where she said I would like it if you'd share interesting things going on in your life ,I would like it if we could do things like that, and i said that I would like for us to be able to do that. She responded back saying "So it's settled. Cool!"  "See you tomorrow, have a good night." 
We exchange our daughter tomorrow. So now it's time to focus on me, and find my happiness, and do interesting things.


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## turnera

"Hey, stbx, guess what? I signed up for a racquetball class at the local junior college. I'm so excited!"


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## stuart

My W and I will be working on the seperation agreement next week, any advice on how to approach it, it's probably the hardest thing I've ever had to do in my life.


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## turnera

How would you approach getting a will finalized?


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## cdbaker

I'm still extremely split on the separation agreement thing. I really don't understand it's purpose in this context at all.

Aside from Stuart's difficulty with grasping the core concepts we've been trying to explain, which Turnera has described so well, why is a legal separation agreement needed in this case? (I assume it's a legal separation, not just a private agreement between both spouses?) I can't see how the separation agreement will foster a better environment for eventual reconciliation, and I can't see why it's necessary if there are no major problems standing in the way. (Like abuse, true stalking, financial mismanagement, extreme parenting failure, etc.)

Further, I can't see how Stuart will be able to negotiate a legal separation agreement without clearly coming off as needy, desperate, head over heals in love, etc.. There is no way that kind of conversation/debate can take place without her ultimately viewing him in a less than favorable light.

Think about it. He loves her, desperately wants her to give him and the family another chance asap. He doesn't want to see their finances split, their home sold, her seeing other men, a custody schedule set, etc.. He desires none of those things, so will naturally try to question/discourage all of them while his wife pushes for some/many of those things. Unless he just decides to take a big risk and give her everything she wants in order to show that he is not desperate, that he doesn't need her, etc., then he is going to come off appearing very weak no matter what.

So I am really hesitant about the Separation Agreement...


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## turnera

Isn't it his wife who wants it? If so, sounds like she wants it to keep him from stalking her or trying to wear her down.


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## stuart

cdbaker said:


> I'm still extremely split on the separation agreement thing. I really don't understand it's purpose in this context at all.
> 
> Aside from Stuart's difficulty with grasping the core concepts we've been trying to explain, which Turnera has described so well, why is a legal separation agreement needed in this case? (I assume it's a legal separation, not just a private agreement between both spouses?) I can't see how the separation agreement will foster a better environment for eventual reconciliation, and I can't see why it's necessary if there are no major problems standing in the way. (Like abuse, true stalking, financial mismanagement, extreme parenting failure, etc.)
> 
> Further, I can't see how Stuart will be able to negotiate a legal separation agreement without clearly coming off as needy, desperate, head over heals in love, etc.. There is no way that kind of conversation/debate can take place without her ultimately viewing him in a less than favorable light.
> 
> Think about it. He loves her, desperately wants her to give him and the family another chance asap. He doesn't want to see their finances split, their home sold, her seeing other men, a custody schedule set, etc.. He desires none of those things, so will naturally try to question/discourage all of them while his wife pushes for some/many of those things. Unless he just decides to take a big risk and give her everything she wants in order to show that he is not desperate, that he doesn't need her, etc., then he is going to come off appearing very weak no matter what.
> 
> So I am really hesitant about the Separation Agreement...


 It will be a legal seperation , and your right, I don't want it to happen. However, this is how my W wants to proceed, she said this from the beginning, and so I must give this to her. In her last email, which I posted, she said if I didn't, it would show her nothing has changed. She needs this to feel safe, she doesn't trust me yet, it will take more time. She is not thinking about reconciling, she said she doesn't know what the future holds, anc that is how I will treat this, and see it myself.
I'll get through it, I won't be needy, I have not talked about the R in 2 months nor have I tried to convince her of anything,she was the one who said I have not been sharing anything in my head with her. When the agreement is done, I think it will be easier for me to move on to focusing more on myself. My W said once the agreement is done, she doesn't see the need to rush, so maybe in a year if things are going well between us, it won't become a D.
Last night, I changed the password on my email acct., because my W still knew it, I wasn't hiding anything and so I didn't care, I'm still not hiding anything, but I felt she shouldn't know it. She got an email on her other acct. saying it was changed, and asked me if I did it or if it was hacked, she asked by email. I called her because there was something else to I wanted to ask, and I told her I changed it. She was overly nice to me, she was talking fast, and her voice was very shaky. I don't need her anymore, I am going to focus on me, and she will sense that, she did last night.
I am not saying I don't want her back, I very much do; as you said i am still very much in love with her ,but I don't need her, I will be fine. When all is said and done, over the course of the next year, and after that, I will have found myself, I will be happy, and I will treat my W in a way that she will see I am better than the man she fell in love with.


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## stuart

turnera said:


> Isn't it his wife who wants it? If so, sounds like she wants it to keep him from stalking her or trying to wear her down.


Yes, she wants it because it will make her feel safe, she doesn't trust that I won't go back to my old behaviors again, I know I won't, but she doesn't. She asked for it from day one, she can't not do it now.


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## turnera

eh, you can always get back together later.


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## stuart

turnera said:


> eh, you can always get back together later.


By later, do you mean after a year. The agreement has to be in place for a year, legaly, before it can become a D. If things are going well, it could just remain as an agreement, if we were to reconcile, the agreement can be tossed out and we would still be married. At this point, I am going to focus on me and my daughter and not worry about a timeframe. I want my W as a person, I don't care if we have a piece of paper that says we're married.


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## tom67

Stuart more times than not separation usually goes straight to d.
If she sees you comfortable with yourself and moving on you may see her coming around.
Are you two going to date other people?
Personally I would give it six months or in your state do you have to wait a year anyway.
Just random thoughts.


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## stuart

tom67 said:


> Stuart more times than not separation usually goes straight to d.
> If she sees you comfortable with yourself and moving on you may see her coming around.
> Are you two going to date other people?
> Personally I would give it six months or in your state do you have to wait a year anyway.
> Just random thoughts.


You have to wait a year before it can beoome a D, but it doesn't have to, it can stay a seperation for as long as you want. So , yes, by the end of the year if things are going well, maybe D will not happen. I am not thinking about dating, when it happens, it happens, as for my W, I think she wants to be on her own for now to heal, proccess. Maybe at some point we can date each other, it should be an interesting year.


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## turnera

Many women who reach her age decide they want to be alone because they grew up wanting to be married, then got married and surrendered themselves to the marriage and husband and kids, and never really put any effort into figuring out who THEY were as individuals. Pretty common. Might even be good for her.


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## karole

Have you discussed with her that you would like no dating rule as part of the separation agreement? I would want that matter made clear at the beginning.


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## Dedicated2Her

> and I will treat my W in a way that she will see I am better than the man she fell in love with.


Get here...."I will treat my exW or W in a way that I will know that I am better than the man I was when I first got married." That is your mindset. You need to not hinge your efforts on what she might or might not think. Trust me on that. It's a big deal.


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## turnera

Listen to Dedicated. He's been where you are.


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## cdbaker

Agreed. It's already been explained that Legal Separations lead to divorce the vast majority of the time, just as regular non-official separations usually lead to divorce as well. But if seeing other people is permitted on top of the legal separation, then truly honestly, I would just divorce now. The odds of success would be so minuscule at that point... I just can't imagine it working out.

Think about what separations are supposed to be for. They are meant for situations where the couple living together is creating such a high level of friction that they can not effectively process through their issues because they are too busy/bogged down with the low-level problems daily co-habitation issues to deal with the larger relationship problems. Alternatively, if there is abuse, drug/alcohol abuse, financial mismanagement, etc. When separated, the GOAL of each partner is supposed to be taking the time alone to process through their individual issues, needs and expectations for the sake of the marriage.

If you agree to allow seeing other people, then you (or your spouse, or both) are actually actively putting effort into the breaking up of your marriage, actively damaging your relationship and seeking to form new relationships with other people. If you're going to do that, why even be in a separation at all? (Especially when it destroys your odds of a successful reconciliation) Plus, you further stack the odds against you, because you can't possibly compete with the happy butterfly inducing feelings and clean slate that another man could offer your wife. It won't be a remotely "fair" competition, and your wife certainly couldn't claim that she is focused on her own healing while spending time with another man.

If you're going to do the legal separation, and I'm not trying to say that you shouldn't, at the very least I would suggest that you absolutely not allow any language about either of you having permission to see other people, and you might consider specifying that there is an expectation that both of you will remain faithful until such time that a divorce petition is filed.


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## turnera

What would you all have stuart do? Set a hitman on her lawyer?


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## Chaparral

turnera said:


> Isn't it his wife who wants it? If so, sounds like she wants it to keep him from stalking her or trying to wear her down.


Does this mean they can have no date nights?

Op does your wife allow date nights or any social activites together?


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## TakingSteps

For what it's worth, I'm finding myself in a similar situation, so this entire thread has been very insightful. Thank you to all of you people who are regularly posting and to stuart, I hope whatever happens that everyone in your family finds happiness. Stay strong for yourself, stay strong for your daughter, and when that happens you will by default be staying strong for everyone else in the world (wife included) as a result.

God damn I wish I took my own advice


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