# Is Something Wrong With Me?



## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

Hi! My name is Tom. I turned 50 this year. I have been married for 15 years to the most wonderful woman I have ever met. She is a goddess in my eyes and no other can get my "attention" like she can. We have 4 children ages 11, 9, 5 & 3. My wife is the bread winner because she has the advanced degrees (2 Masters and a Doctorate) She works really hard sometimes late into the wee hours of the morning. Sometimes, she falls asleep on the floor in her office. She is always exhausted and rarely has time to relax and just do things for herself. 

I was gainfully employed as a banker but decided to return to college to get a degree while she held the fort down. Well, needless to say, due to some unforeseen circumstances I did not graduate and my wife continues to shoulder the entire burden of keeping our house running, being an excellent mother and exceptional in her career. She is amazing. 

My question is, is it unreasonabe or even irrational for me to want to have sexual intimacy with her once a week? She feels like I am being extremely needy and obsessed with her. I understand that she is under and EXTREME amount of stress with our finances, but it does not stop my desire to be with her. I think about it all of the time. 

What can I do? She does not initiate intimacy with me. There was a time where I felt there was someone else (another man) but she has assured me it is our busy circumstances not another person. Our arguments are becoming epic! They all stem from my belief that she is no longer "in to" me. She says that's not true. She says she just does not have time and doesn't feel motivated and our arguments are driving a wedge between us. I have an anger problem and it's getting worse because I cannot seem to make her understand what I'm going through. 

I feel that we should work together to achieve balance and that out sexual needs and our physical intimacy needs are just as important as our finances and safety. Is there something wrong with me for demanding sexual intimacy from my busy wife? Help Me!!

TomCat


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Why is your wife keeping the house running and financially supporting everyone? What are you contributing besides anger and demands for sex? 

If you're not picking up your share and you're walking around mad that's not going to turn anyone on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Its no more unreasonable than for her to expect you to go to the mall with her.

The real answer is that she feels she needs more butt-kissing than you are providing. She wants attention, compliments, romance and such just like a 19 year old. That's what makes her want sex.

On the other hand, you should do whatever she wants. Anything less, and you're an A-hole. 

On the third hand: You are supposed to be the primary one to support and provide. Don't quit your job and lay off the income burden on her unless you are going to come roaring back like Rambo, no question about it. Its tough to look like that top dog if you aren't. You've got to up your Rambo score.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Forest said:


> Its no more unreasonable than for her to expect you to go to the mall with her.
> 
> The real answer is that she feels she needs more butt-kissing than you are providing. She wants attention, compliments, romance and such just like a 19 year old. That's what makes her want sex.
> 
> On the other hand, you should do whatever she wants. Anything less, and you're an A-hole. Funny, eh? You can do things you hate to please her till the cows come how, and its expected of you.


Of course, if only he butt kissed more she'd be fine with supporting everyone financially and running the house. Ok then.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Once a week is what the Catholic Church considers a reasonable expectation of marital duties. So it is not too much to ask. You do not want to associate requests with guilt nor should she feel like you are going to throw a temper tantrum if you do not get any. You'll probably have to go out of your way to make her feel BOTH relaxed and that you are not trying to manipulate her just for sex. For example, you may want to find a way to embark on a home improvement project that is simple but makes life easier like installing some book shelves or optimizing household storage. Then help go through the kids stuff and donate some of the clutter that comes along with so many kids. These type of projects can relieve a great deal of stress, because an organized home is a stress free home. Once you get to this point, she may become more receptive for sex. If she comes home and the kitchen is a disaster and there are crumbled up pop tarts on the floor next to the couch underneath last night's pizza box, then that is NOT the time to pressure her for sex. 

As for your children ages, obviously someone has to be home while the other is the breadwinner. Just because you are obviously the one home does not mean that you can not work and contribute. If you were a banker, you should be able to subcontract accounting work and tax preparation for other small businesses in your area. 

Now if you say your wife is sleeping on the floor in her office and coming home early in the morning.... those seem like red flags to me. Either she is having an affair, or you are allowing her to work too hard without any remorse. 

Best wishes, 
Badsanta


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

LifeIsTooShort: I am fully capable of working and earning a living. However, in her chosen profession, she makes 4 times as much as me. I spend a lot of time with our 4 kids. Camp, track practice, projects, homework and everything. I even took a position as a substitute teacher at my kids elementary school to be close. I cook, clean and fix things as well. I just don't and probably will NEVER earn as much money as her. My anger, typically comes from frustration because I feel neglected. She says she feels neglected as well. I totally understand where your coming from. However, we have been on 1 date without kids in the last 10 years. 

Forest: Good tip. She has indicated that I am not romantic. I believe that my anger causes her to forget the compliments, attention and romance. But I love her and I will try harder.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

You say you were in banking and then went back to school. Were you the major breadwinner in your previous work? How long has it been since you went back to school?

Is it possible that she resents having to shoulder the load of work and minding the children?


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Of course, if only he butt kissed more she'd be fine with supporting everyone financially and running the house. Ok then.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, impose that double standard. Nice the way you cut off my advice to get more involved financially because it didn't fit your little snit. The guy is asking for advice and opinions. Let people talk without judging and fussing.

I buy into the same thing. A man should be bringing home the bacon, or the woman ain't interested.

If he were a woman, you wouldn't give a tinker's darn what the circumstances were, or who brought home the pay. You'd support unconditionally, and say the man should be more understanding, sympathetic, empathetic, etc. Money, burden, etc would never enter the picture.

Good news men! If you have a good paycheck, your woman should kow-tow to you like a geisha under this scenario. What a narrow, one-side viewpoint.


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

sapientia said:


> You say you were in banking and then went back to school. Were you the major breadwinner in your previous work? How long has it been since you went back to school?
> 
> Is it possible that she resents having to shoulder the load of work and minding the children?


We both share the load with the kids. I was a bank branch manager and I walked away in 2008. I'm back in school now. I'm 18 hours away from my undergrad degree.


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

badsanta: Her office is at home! She works from home. (Whew) I should have specified. If she's having an affair in my house while I'm sleeping, that would be a deal breaker, no? I think, I should go back to work to put my mind on other things.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Ok, thanks for clearing that up. You indicated that she was running the house as well but it looks like you are doing your part. I make more than my hb and I don't think less of him for it but he picks up a lot at home. 

Your wife is working too much. Period. Those big bucks often come with that price so something needs to change. In my profession one can rise to that level but it's not something I've ever wanted. 

Can she cut back and make less? Can you supplement her income? Better balance needs to be found here..... money isn't everything. I don't think your marriage can be a priority while she puts so much into work. I see this all the time at my job, the ones who work all the time like that are single or get divorced.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

Side note...we once went 3 years without sex. THREE YEARS!!! When I see the words "THREE YEARS". I get angry. However, I understand. My anger and things have caused her to disconnect from me. I take full responsibility. To me, neglect is tantamount to abuse. Especially when someone knows that their spouse is totally faithful and waiting for intimacy. I just love my wife. I always have.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

TomCat11 said:


> We both share the load with the kids. I was a bank branch manager and I walked away in 2008. I'm back in school now. I'm 18 hours away from my undergrad degree.


Can't you finish your degree? Seems like a no-brainer solution.

Anyway, you didn't answer my question: is she resentful of you not working?

The 3 year thing is bullsh!t btw. Noone should have to tolerate that. Have you changed in some significant way that has affected her desire for you?

Why does my spidey sense say you are a troll?


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

Sounds like you need to reconnect emotionally. Weekly date night?


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

SunnyT said:


> Sounds like you need to reconnect emotionally. Weekly date night?


She never has time. However, we went out last weekend and it was awesome. Still, afterwards.....no sex. She said she was too tired.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

Yes something is wrong with you. Your wife is not attracted to you. Google how to reattract your wife. One thing it will tell you is complaining is unattractive. Handling rejection in an attractive manner is tricky but it can be done with insight and a commitment to what works. You have to reignite the passion. It is real work but well worth it. Manning up is vital. Finish degree, get happy with yourself without needing her and kick ass at something and add something exciting and new to the mix that is your life. She needs to admire you to find you attractive. Ask yourself why or how would she admire you and then go accomplish something and be worthy of her interest in you always. Be interesting. Be attractive. Stop complaining and motivate her to be sexual with attraction, interest, excitement and passion


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

sapientia said:


> Can't you finish your degree? Seems like a no-brainer solution.
> 
> Anyway, you didn't answer my question: is she resentful of you not working?
> 
> ...


I believe she is resentful because of my relationship with the boys, not being as educated as her and her colleagues, my anger issues and not working. Keep in mind, I am a musician so there is some money coming in as well as substitute teaching in the fall. I'm back in school. I will be done in the spring of 2016.

Troll? No freaking way. I want my wife to desire me. She says my anger makes her not want to be close to me. I need her to want me like I want her.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Yeah, this seems like a respect issue. Get your degree and a job asap. Then head for some counselling. Most women and men want partners who match them in drive and achievement.

Its a double standard. There are men who are okay with a less accomplished woman. But most high-achieving women want their equal in marriage (even though this often causes other problems they don't anticipate).


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

Dump the anger now. It's not attractive. 

Take responsibility for becoming unattractive to your wife. That is the minute you will begin to move forward getting a life and reenergizing yourself to be the best man you can be for yourself whether she approves or not. 

Being self-respective confident and proud of who you are and are becoming is attractive. At the moment, you don't seem to have that. Be a man with a plan an work the chit out of that plan.

Being the best you you can be on your terms unapologetically is attractive. It appears you need a kick in the ass to deal with your current list of shortcomings. You have gotten lazy in your pursuit of an happiness

Knock your chit off an get busy. Be remarkable according to your values. THAT is attractive to everyone.


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

Thanks everyone. This was a huge help.


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## dash74 (Jan 3, 2015)

TomCat11 said:


> I believe she is resentful because of my relationship with the boys, not being as educated as her and her colleagues, my anger issues and not working. Keep in mind, I am a musician so there is some money coming in as well as substitute teaching in the fall. I'm back in school. I will be done in the spring of 2016.
> 
> Troll? No freaking way. I want my wife to desire me. She says my anger makes her not want to be close to me. I need her to want me like I want her.


This will become the norm with more women in college than men I dont know what to tell you 

Check you anger work out finish school get a full time job with your degree she has to see you as a man again only you can change the way she sees you that is something you cant fake to make

And it still my not be enough so work on yourself anyway like needle said good luck brother


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

TomCat11 said:


> badsanta: Her office is at home! She works from home. (Whew) I should have specified. If she's having an affair in my house while I'm sleeping, that would be a deal breaker, no? I think, I should go back to work to put my mind on other things.


Ahh, working from home is another ball of wax to contend with. My wife and I both work from home and I often joke that I am having an affair with my coworker, but that is obviously my wife since she is the only coworker I have daily contact with in person. 

The struggle here is to find a way to break up the routine so that the two of you can get out of the house together, as opposed to one staying home to watch the kids. For example, instead of one of you going out to buy groceries, venture out together to do something new like going to a farmer's market with the kids. 

ANOTHER ray of hope is that your 11 year old is not too far away from being old enough to babysit. A good way to begin testing this is to go for short walks with your wife in the neighborhood while the kids stay home. Then if all goes well you can venture out further. You can also setup an old smartphone with a baby monitor app and have a mobile intercom system to check in with them while you are away. 

The point is you need to find alone time with your wife to reconnect as friends while you each get a break from parenting. Do not make the first few attempts at this about sex, just rekindle your friendship together without the kids crawling on top of you or suddenly crying because a green marker just ran out of ink for coloring trees in a fairytale book, or a temper tantrum breaks out that the Apple TV is running an update and someone unplugged it to make it restart faster OR suddenly all at once the kids have discovered that there are no more good snacks in the house AND there is a BIG GIANT spider crawling in someone's window. ...get the point! Tough to nurture one's libido with all that going on.

Also, I'll throw this out there. It is possible that your wife does not want anymore children and being sexually active makes her stressed out that she could get pregnant again. You will want to have that conversation if you have not already.

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

It would appear that working on myself is in order whether we stayed married or not. I had to take inventory and I realize now that my anger my be a result of my frustration with my current situation. Sent out 7 job applications this morning. 

Thanks everyone.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

TomCat11 said:


> She says my anger makes her not want to be close to me. I need her to want me like I want her.


I can relate to your wife. I was with a BF with anger issues. Severe anger issues. Not saying yours are severe, but let me tell you something. Sex with him was the LAST thing I wanted to do. We once went a year without sex because he was such a hothead off and on that entire year I refused to let him touch me.

I think until you deal head-on with your anger issues, nothing will change in the intimacy department.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

It's not PC to say that but I think that most women have low or no respect for a man who makes way less than her. This is what I have seen in real life. The women who are very successful in their careers in a lot of cases treat their husbands pretty badly. In fact my own wife has noticed this and pointed out the possible reason.

The only thing you can do is to get your ddegree and find a job. The feminists like to talk about SAHD but you have a very low chance of being respected if you are a SAHD and do not bring in income. Why? That is the way evolution has worked. Same reason as women liking to be wooed and courted. And men liking to chase women.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

nirvana said:


> It's not PC to say that but I think that most women have low or no respect for a man who makes way less than her. This is what I have seen in real life. The women who are very successful in their careers in a lot of cases treat their husbands pretty badly. In fact my own wife has noticed this and pointed out the possible reason.
> 
> The only thing you can do is to get your ddegree and find a job. The feminists like to talk about SAHD but you have a very low chance of being respected if you are a SAHD and do not bring in income. Why? That is the way evolution has worked. Same reason as women liking to be wooed and courted. And men liking to chase women.


I think this can be true. I know for me, as I'm making more than hubby, he does other things that command respect. He takes care of stuff and handles himself in a way that commands respect. .... controls his temper, doesn't pout, etc. I just happen to be good at nerdy math stuff that pays well but he's a strong man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Froggi (Sep 10, 2014)

In this day and age it is such crap that anyone would treat anyone less because they are not the breadwinner.

Barring a medical issue, denying your spouse sex is just like cheating. It is neglect and borders on abuse. 

I would let her know that this is not acceptable, that she needs a complete physical to rule out disease or something else, and marriage counseling.

No one should have to suck it up and put up with a sexless marriage.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

I agree with Froggi that you need to be very honest with your wife and tell her exactly how her lack of interest in you sexually makes you feel.

I would suggest going about this in a non-accusatory, non-shaming way. Ask her what she wants and needs from you in order to feel loving towards you again. You might be surprised.


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

Froggi said:


> In this day and age it is such crap that anyone would treat anyone less because they are not the breadwinner.
> 
> Barring a medical issue, denying your spouse sex is just like cheating. It is neglect and borders on abuse.
> 
> ...


I have asked her and she assures me that she is healthy and normal. My concern is that I know she masturbates but why would she do that when I have been crying out for affection and intimacy? I really believe, I have damaged this relationship and turned her away from me. She does not EVER initiate sex and when she does consent, I feel like she's doing it to shut me up. My friends, I feel like I've lost her. However, when I bring up divorce she is totally against it. She wants to grow old with me and swears better days are coming.


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

Nomorebeans said:


> I agree with Froggi that you need to be very honest with your wife and tell her exactly how her lack of interest in you sexually makes you feel.
> 
> I would suggest going about this in a non-accusatory, non-shaming way. Ask her what she wants and needs from you in order to feel loving towards you again. You might be surprised.


I've tried every way possible. It always turns into me being needy and insecure. It always points back to me demanding too much from her.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

She's no longer into you as a romantic/sexual partner, and she may be LD (low drive). If she was more sexual in the past, then it's now situational. If the latter, then it may be recoverable, but otherwise, I doubt there will be any change even if you return to work, work out, and do other things to increase her respect for you. She can hire a nanny to do what you do, if you weren't there. If you feel that is the case, there will NOT be any improvement in intimacy no matter what you do. You can live with that, or you can leave. If you choose the latter route, do so now before finding a job, and get the best deal you can for yourself (alimony and child support), including at least half custody of the kids since you are doing most of that now. At best, it may be a wake-up call for her, and she will realize that she can lose something important and make an effort to improve things - and if that's not her response, you'll know you're doing the right thing in leaving.


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

Married but Happy said:


> She's no longer into you as a romantic/sexual partner, and she may be LD (low drive). If she was more sexual in the past, then it's now situational. If the latter, then it may be recoverable, but otherwise, I doubt there will be any change even if you return to work, work out, and do other things to increase her respect for you. She can hire a nanny to do what you do, if you weren't there. If you feel that is the case, there will NOT be any improvement in intimacy no matter what you do. You can live with that, or you can leave. If you choose the latter route, do so now before finding a job, and get the best deal you can for yourself (alimony and child support), including at least half custody of the kids since you are doing most of that now. At best, it may be a wake-up call for her, and she will realize that she can lose something important and make an effort to improve things - and if that's not her response, you'll know you're doing the right thing in leaving.


Brother says the same thing. "What if you become Rambo in 6 months and she's still not intimate? What then?" or "What if you land a six figure job and she still won't kiss you goodnight? What then?" Leaving now seems like the best option when you think about that. Problem is, I love her with all of my heart.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

TomCat11 said:


> Problem is, I love her with all of my heart.


Love is NOT enough. Especially when it isn't reciprocated. Then, love is a dysfunctional trap.


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## Froggi (Sep 10, 2014)

TomCat11 said:


> I have asked her and she assures me that she is healthy and normal. My concern is that I know she masturbates but why would she do that when I have been crying out for affection and intimacy? I really believe, I have damaged this relationship and turned her away from me. She does not EVER initiate sex and when she does consent, I feel like she's doing it to shut me up. My friends, I feel like I've lost her. However, when I bring up divorce she is totally against it. She wants to grow old with me and swears better days are coming.




Nope. She is refusing, which is neglect and borders on abuse. Now, what are you going to do? Your choices are suck it up and deal, or leave.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

You can't really control making more money than her, so control what you can. 

-You can control your attitude/disposition. Don't be a grump. 
- You can control your fitness. Get hot. 
- You can control your neediness. Find your own, fulfilling things that bring you happiness, without depending on her to achieve them. Do more fun things with your kids. 
- You can control your energies and choose to devote them to job searching or finishing your degree. 
- You can control how you handle her rejection. My advice is to shrug and carry on about your day... Masturbate if you need to. Seriously. I still masturbate when my SO isn't around. Show that her rejection doesn't disrupt you getting on with things.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> Love is NOT enough. Especially when it isn't reciprocated. Then, love is a dysfunctional trap.


Well said!!!


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## Sure that could work (Jun 9, 2015)

TomCat11 said:


> I have asked her and she assures me that she is healthy and normal. My concern is that I know she masturbates but why would she do that when I have been crying out for affection and intimacy? I really believe, I have damaged this relationship and turned her away from me. She does not EVER initiate sex and when she does consent, I feel like she's doing it to shut me up. My friends, I feel like I've lost her. However, when I bring up divorce she is totally against it. She wants to grow old with me and swears better days are coming.


This needs to be looked at.....why do you believe you have damaged this relationship? How have you turned her away? Put that into words, real words and then you might have something to work with.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

TomCat11 said:


> Brother says the same thing. "What if you become Rambo in 6 months and she's still not intimate? What then?" or "What if you land a six figure job and she still won't kiss you goodnight? What then?" Leaving now seems like the best option when you think about that. Problem is, I love her with all of my heart.


 Hearing your story from your point of view, I understand why your wife does not want sex with you. A woman cannot be in love with someone that she does not respect, and you have given her reason to lose respect for you. She held down the fort so that you could return to college to get a degree, and you say "needless to say" you did not graduate; why is that needless to say? Now you say that your wife "continues to shoulder the entire burden of keeping our house running, being an excellent mother and exceptional in her career", while you hold no degree or job. I am sorry but you need to finish your degree, get a job, and start carrying a fair share of the burden, so that she can have reason to respect you again. Leaving her prior to that does not make sense if you "love her with all" of your heart, as you would not have given the marriage a real shot.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Satya said:


> You can't really control making more money than her, so control what you can.


 The issue is not that she makes more money then him. The issue is that he does not hold down a real job.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

TRy said:


> The issue is not that she makes more money then him. The issue is that he does not hold down a real job.


I have to agree with this. I make more than my hb and I think he's sexy as hell. .... the issue isn't one of money but of ambition. I just happen to be in a higher paying field, but while I have two bachelor's degrees hubby has a master's. He was just out of work for 9 months and just found a job doing what he does, and while he was out of work he handled everything. 

OP, as you describe yourself you seem a little lazy and unambitious. No woman will respect that and it's not sexy. Would you elaborate on what you mean by her shouldering everything and running the house?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> I have to agree with this. I make more than my hb and I think he's sexy as hell. .... the issue isn't one of money but of ambition. I just happen to be in a higher paying field, but while I have two bachelor's degrees hubby has a master's. He was just out of work for 9 months and just found a job doing what he does, and while he was out of work he handled everything.
> 
> OP, as you describe yourself you seem a little lazy and unambitious. No woman will respect that and it's not sexy. Would you elaborate on what you mean by her shouldering everything and running the house?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I think women respect men who have fancy degrees, fancy titles and fancy cars. Outward signs of prosperity. That way they are shallow like men. Men similarly are attracted to women who are hot and beautiful from the outside and their inner beauty is not considered at that time (big mistake).

So lifeistooshort is right. In my personal experience,I have a good salary, a nice car, nice house that I paid for myself, fancy degrees, but I made the mistake of not looking after the best opportunity and stuck to this crappy city which is bad for my career. My logic was I did not want to inconvenience my family. Now I am looking for a new job in CA or Seattle where I will be valued as an employee and can grow. Not here. No guarantees if that will get my wife to respect me more, but if not, I don't care as I will have a great career.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

nirvana said:


> I think women respect men who have fancy degrees, fancy titles and fancy cars. Outward signs of prosperity. That way they are shallow like men. Men similarly are attracted to women who are hot and beautiful from the outside and their inner beauty is not considered at that time (big mistake).
> 
> So lifeistooshort is right. In my personal experience,I have a good salary, a nice car, nice house that I paid for myself, fancy degrees, but I made the mistake of not looking after the best opportunity and stuck to this crappy city which is bad for my career. My logic was I did not want to inconvenience my family. Now I am looking for a new job in CA or Seattle where I will be valued as an employee and can grow. Not here. No guarantees if that will get my wife to respect me more, but if not, I don't care as I will have a great career.


I think fancy cars are a little over the top. I don't care what his car is, though I prefer it not be a clunker because they're not reliable. I only ask that he have some ambition to do something. .... if he was a teacher he wouldn't make much but that would still be some kind of ambition. Not bothering to finish a degree and not keeping a job while leaving your wife to worry about everything is seen as counter to a woman's desire for a strong partner. 

I agree with you that we should all spend more time considering what's on the inside and what kind of partner they'll make, but I would argue that the willingness to leave everything to your wife to handle is indicative of a certain character in the same way I'd say that a woman who won't get a job even though hubby is struggling financially has a character flaw and is not a team player. As spouses we're supposed to back each other up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> I think fancy cars are a little over the top. I don't care what his car is, though I prefer it not be a clunker because they're not reliable. I only ask that he have some ambition to do something. .... if he was a teacher he wouldn't make much but that would still be some kind of ambition. Not bothering to finish a degree and not keeping a job while leaving your wife to worry about everything is seen as counter to a woman's desire for a strong partner.
> 
> I agree with you that we should all spend more time considering what's on the inside and what kind of partner they'll make, but I would argue that the willingness to leave everything to your wife to handle is indicative of a certain character in the same way I'd say that a woman who won't get a job even though hubby is struggling financially has a character flaw and is not a team player. As spouses we're supposed to back each other up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A nice fancy car is also a sign of prosperity and success which ladies love in a man. That's why many men buy them even if they cannot afford them. To show off to the ladies.

Agree with all the above. My only point is that women love a successful powerful man. Men are not attracted to a successful powerful woman in the same way. There is a difference we need to acknowledge.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

nirvana said:


> A nice fancy car is also a sign of prosperity and success which ladies love in a man. That's why many men buy them even if they cannot afford them. To show off to the ladies.
> 
> Agree with all the above. My only point is that women love a successful powerful man. Men are not attracted to a successful powerful woman in the same way. There is a difference we need to acknowledge.


Probably true. I'm sure mine didn't immediately notice my big, math minded brain.....I'm sure it was more related to how I looked in the sports bra I was wearing after the race we'd just finished.

He just got lucky that I was secretly a nerd with high income potential. I can honestly say that he didn't marry me for money because when we met I wasn't in this field so he had no idea where I'd land.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> Probably true. I'm sure mine didn't immediately notice my big, math minded brain.....I'm sure it was more related to how I looked in the sports bra I was wearing after the race we'd just finished.
> 
> He just got lucky that I was secretly a nerd with high income potential. I can honestly say that he didn't marry me for money because when we met I wasn't in this field so he had no idea where I'd land.


Don't get me wrong, most men (I think) love smart intelligent women who can carry along a good conversation. At least that is what I like. But for men, the first attraction is always the looks. That's just the way it is. Then on getting to know a woman, if she is smart, intelligent (without being a condescending b****h) then there is nothing as intoxicating. The problem is so many smart women have this "I am better than a man" issue going on which is repulsive.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

TomCat11 said:


> Hi! My name is Tom. I turned 50 this year. I have been married for 15 years to the most wonderful woman I have ever met. She is a goddess in my eyes and no other can get my "attention" like she can. We have 4 children ages 11, 9, 5 & 3. My wife is the *bread winner *because she has the advanced degrees (2 Masters and a Doctorate) She *works really hard sometimes late into the wee hours of the morning*. Sometimes, she falls asleep on the floor in her office. She is *always exhausted* and *rarely has time to relax and just do things for herself*.
> 
> I was gainfully employed as a banker but decided to return to college to get a degree while she held the fort down. Well, needless to say, due to some unforeseen circumstances *I did not graduate* and my wife continues to shoulder the entire burden of *keeping our house running*, being an excellent mother and exceptional in her career. She is amazing.
> 
> ...


Read the bolded items. Now tell me why on earth she would even care what you want?

Get the book His Needs Her Needs, and read it immediately. You are doing everything wrong.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

TomCat11 said:


> Side note...we once went 3 years without sex. THREE YEARS!!! When I see the words "THREE YEARS". I get angry. However, I understand. *My anger and things have caused her to disconnect from me*. I take full responsibility. To me, *neglect is tantamount to abuse*. Especially when someone knows that their spouse is totally faithful and waiting for intimacy. I just love my wife. I always have.


No, you DON'T take full responsibility because in the same breath you say that her not giving you sex is ABUSE.

No, ANGER is abuse.


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

I am a musician. I am sought after renowned and revered in my field. I make upwards of $500 to $800 on a weekend with my band. That's peanuts compared to what she makes. I've given this some thought. Yes, she shoulders a huge part of the financial burden, but I am always taking care of the kids so that she can. I am equally involved with running the household but Thursday, Friday and Saturday evenings are my time to go make my portion of the money. Here's what happens: I play for throngs of people. Some absolutely appreciate our music. Some women who are strangers to me absolutely adore me and offer me sex on the spot. I refuse and say every performance, "I'm a married man." to which they respond, "Oh really? Why don't we ever see her? Why doesn't she EVER support you? Are you really married?" It's bothersome when I come home and the one person I want to adore me does not but strangers do. 

I hope that makes sense. Summer Semester just ended. I have 4 more classes (12 more credit hours to complete) I am not fat or unattractive. Trust me on this. She just is not in to me. I accept it but I will not cheat.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And...he ignores the advice. smh

btw, my H manages a band, has been doing it the last 35 years. I know all about the 'throngs' of women. I know that some band members lap it up and get as much on the side as they can, while others just don't. Both groups experience unhappiness in their marriages, because marriage happiness has nothing to do with whether you screw your groupies.

You talk about it as though because you don't, she owes you. Doesn't work that way.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Few questions:

Why does she have to work so hard she cannot make it from her office to the bedroom? Is it to keep fancy standard of living or earn enough for food? Can she cut the hours? I would not be interested in sex if I had to work that much. 

You have 18 credit hours to finish degree, and you saying it will be spring 2016. Why so long? Aren't you making this easy on yourself, so you don't overwork? she overworks all the time.

Read all the bolded parts of your post in turnera's post. If this does not bring enlightment, than probably nothing will.


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

Update: Finished 6 credit hours in summer semester. Preparing for fall. I have 3 classes, Finite Math, Criminology and Intro to Business Law. Then I'm done. I was hired TODAY as a Resource Instructor at the middle school my son attends and I am in therapy for conflict resolution and anger management. Let's see if this will make my wife want to have sex with me again. Honestly, according to my therapist, I might not be totally to blame. At any rate, working on me has taken my mind off of having sex with her. 

Thanks for your help.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

It could be that she's lost respect for you because you haven't brought home any money.
Staying home, washing the dishes and cleaning the house is not a turn-on for most women. At least for me it's not. If my husband was a stay-at-home dad, this would change my attitude towards him, especially if I came home and he begged for sex. So unattractive. 
The good news is that you at least found a job and hopefully this will make her look at you as more manly.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

lovelygirl said:


> It could be that she's lost respect for you because you haven't brought home any money.
> Staying home, washing the dishes and cleaning the house is not a turn-on for most women. At least for me it's not. If my husband was a stay-at-home dad, this would change my attitude towards him, especially if I came home and he begged for sex. So unattractive.
> The good news is that you at least found a job and hopefully this will make her look at you as more manly.


He says he's been bringing home $500-$800 a weekend. That's not nothing. He is a musician. He's been taking classes. He had been active in more than solely being a homemaker. 

Aside from that, I understand you are saying a SAHD is unattractive. Geez they have 4 kids, I'm sure there are a lot of things he takes care of that bring value to the family. I was a SAHM, I'm glad my husband didn't think that was unattractive.


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## Constable Odo (Feb 14, 2015)

TRy said:


> The issue is not that she makes more money then him. The issue is that he does not hold down a real job.


I would say fathering 4 kids while his wife is the major breadwinner is pretty much a full-time job.

Oh wait. He's a man. That doesn't count.

Good ole double-standard at play.

If he had a vagina, then it would be okay for him to be at home all day, and there would be heaps of praise about how wonderful it is he makes a sacrifice for his children while his spouse works to provide for the family.




TomCat11 said:


> She just is not in to me.


Pretty much.

Your options are: 1. Leave; 2. Stay; 3. Cheat

If you are going to leave, then the previous advice you received about not finding a job is good advice. It will reduce the amount of child support you will have to give her each month. With 4 young kids, you should pretty much plan on living in a van down by the river until the youngest is 21.

If you intend to stay, then I recommend you become a monk after you finish your undergraduate degree, since you will presumably be going without sex for many, many years (until you finally get fed up and invoke option 1 or 3).

Finally, you could ask her for an unlimited duration hall pass. That way, it wouldn't be cheating, and she may be relieved you're getting it somewhere else and will not be asking her to put out.

I work in academia. There is a direct demographic correlation between intelligence and number of children. The more intelligent the couple, the less children they have. Their fulfillment comes from the intellectual side, rather than the physical.

Its very likely your wife is simply low drive, because she gets her sense of self-worth through her academic pursuits rather than physical intimacy. As such, this is not likely ever going to change, even if you become the most physically attractive specimen on the planet, have forearms the size of hams, have a daryl dixon tattoo on your bicep, etc.

Knowing this, the question becomes whether or not you are willing to accept a life of monkhood with no sex for the "privilege" of being married to this woman.

If it were me? I'd emotionally detach, file for divorce on the grounds of emotional and physical abandonment, move on, and find a woman who rides me to the point I get chaffed.




Livvie said:


> I understand you are saying a SAHD is unattractive. Geez they have 4 kids, I'm sure there are a lot of things he takes care of that bring value to the family. I was a SAHM, I'm glad my husband didn't think that was unattractive.


Yes, but I presume you have a vagina. Then it is perfectly acceptable for you to stay home with the children while your spouse works 175 hours per week to provide for the family. Its only if you have a penis that such an option becomes unacceptable.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

TomCat11 said:


> Update: Finished 6 credit hours in summer semester. Preparing for fall. I have 3 classes, Finite Math, Criminology and Intro to Business Law. Then I'm done. I was hired TODAY as a Resource Instructor at the middle school my son attends and I am in therapy for conflict resolution and anger management. Let's see if this will make my wife want to have sex with me again. Honestly, according to my therapist, I might not be totally to blame. At any rate, working on me has taken my mind off of having sex with her.
> 
> Thanks for your help.


Good on your effort to change things up. The point of it all should be, positive changes in yourself are to improve your life. Whether it be with this wife or not. It's not some game to garner sex. Just saying...

Here, 8 Tools That Will Change Your Life

Hold on to Your NUTs: The Relationship Manual for Men


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Constable Odo said:


> I would say fathering 4 kids while his wife is the major breadwinner is* pretty much a full-time job.*
> 
> Oh wait. He's a man. That doesn't count.
> 
> ...


Except that you haven't read very many of the threads that include SAHMs (the women who stay at home). Many posters here male and a couple of female posters don't think that staying at home is something to be praised over. In fact, many believe that staying at home is a vacation to working. 

It's funny how staying at home becomes "a full time job" when a man does it - hahaha. So many times SAHMs are told it's not a full time job and it's a cake walk. So, what are you talking about? 

There are some SAHMs that act like they are sacrificing their lives, jobs, whatever to stay at home. Not all of them are like that.

There are people who remind SAHMs all the time that staying at home is easy and they should quit complaining while the breadwinner has the entire financial burden on them. Apparently, all SAHMs do is nap, watch soaps, and eat all the food in the house. 

My point is, that door swings both ways. It doesn't matter WHICH parent stays home these days, it's typically frowned upon. If it's the woman that stays at home, she is fat, lazy, and a moocher of her H.....if it's the man that stays at home, he can't be respected as a man, is lazy, etc...

So, nice try with that gender war there.

OP, keep focusing on yourself. She will either come around, or not. Either way, at least you have your ducks in a row.


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## Constable Odo (Feb 14, 2015)

staarz21 said:


> Except that you haven't read very many of the threads that include SAHMs (the women who stay at home). Many posters here male and a couple of female posters don't think that staying at home is something to be praised over. In fact, many believe that staying at home is a vacation to working.


I can't attest to what other people have posted. If you wish to criticize my words, go at it, but don't attempt to characterize my response based upon what other nebulous "other" posters may or may not post.

Being a SAHM or SAHD may or may not be a full-time job, based on many things, such as how much work the person does, or whether they sit around watching Oprah while eating Bon-Bons all day.





> It's funny how staying at home becomes "a full time job" when a man does it - hahaha. So many times SAHMs are told it's not a full time job and it's a cake walk. So, what are you talking about?


Please feel free to review my prior posts and point out a post of mine that states this.




> Apparently, all SAHMs do is nap, watch soaps, and eat all the food in the house.


Based upon my anecdotal evidence obtained via a stroll through Walmart, this may be true.


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## Cara (Aug 15, 2010)

TomCat11 said:


> LifeIsTooShort: I am fully capable of working and earning a living. However, in her chosen profession, she makes 4 times as much as me. *I spend a lot of time with our 4 kids. Camp, track practice, projects, homework and everything. I even took a position as a substitute teacher at my kids elementary school to be close. I cook, clean and fix things as well. I just don't and probably will NEVER earn as much money as her.* My anger, typically comes from frustration because I feel neglected. She says she feels neglected as well. I totally understand where your coming from.* However, we have been on 1 date without kids in the last 10 years.
> *
> Forest: Good tip. She has indicated that I am not romantic. I believe that my anger causes her to forget the compliments, attention and romance. But I love her and I will try harder.


Could her problem with attraction be that she feels like the man in this relationship? If you are so revered in your field yet still only making $500-$800/week, maybe this is just the life you will have. Or, go back to being a successful banker and do the music on the weekends.


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

Cara said:


> Could her problem with attraction be that she feels like the man in this relationship? If you are so revered in your field yet still only making $500-$800/week, maybe this is just the life you will have. Or, go back to being a successful banker and do the music on the weekends.


Excuse me? How is $500 to $800 a week for 5 hours of work nothing? Then, I take the kids to school, do homework, clean the pool, PTA, doctors appointment, practice, teach them music and cook, mow the lawn (2.5 acres), maintain cars and etcetera. I'm having a hard time understanding how she can see me as less as a contributor. If going back to being a banker will make her want to have sex with me, then I don't want her. Plus, I'm back in school, found a full time job. What I'm starting to realize is that it doesn't matter what I do. She is not into me. Period. Sadly, I'm starting to feel like, maybe, I'm not into her. Thanks for your advice anyway.


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

TomCat11 said:


> Excuse me? How is $500 to $800 a week for 5 hours of work nothing? Then, I take the kids to school, do homework, clean the pool, PTA, doctors appointment, practice, teach them music and cook, mow the lawn (2.5 acres), maintain cars and etcetera. I'm having a hard time understanding how she can see me as less as a contributor. If going back to being a banker will make her want to have sex with me, then I don't want her. Plus, I'm back in school, found a full time job. What I'm starting to realize is that it doesn't matter what I do. She is not into me. Period. Sadly, I'm starting to feel like, maybe, I'm not into her. Thanks for your advice anyway.


bingo. and i agree with the other poster who said if the shoe was on the other foot....and she was a SAHM.....they would be sunginger her praises and complimenting her for the scarifices she is making.

instead...you are beta for doing the work that still has to be done.

find out who your wife is interested in instead of you.


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

"If it were me? I'd emotionally detach, file for divorce on the grounds of emotional and physical abandonment, move on, and find a woman who rides me to the point I get chaffed."

Costable Odo: I believe this might be the best for everyone. Maybe there is a guy out there who will light her fire. It's certainly not me.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Things change really fast for you. A SAHD to 4 children and loving husband fending off weekly gratuitous offers of sex from random women turns into an enraged man looking for women to ride in 3 short weeks. 

I think your wife has you pegged and I suggest you get a D and ride those women 2 at a time. Who knows, maybe you'll finally earn your wife's admiration and respect and even your children's. I think you are confused though, your wife probably wants to have mutually satisfying sex with a man in control of himself. She's not conveniently at hand to give you a good ride. 

Or go back to your outdoor life under that conveyance over a body of water.


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

x598 said:


> bingo. and i agree with the other poster who said if the shoe was on the other foot....and she was a SAHM.....they would be sunginger her praises and complimenting her for the scarifices she is making.
> 
> instead...you are beta for doing the work that still has to be done.
> 
> find out who your wife is interested in instead of you.


At this point, I don't even care. If I have to become something or like someone else to appeal to her after 15 years, we're done. It's not like I don't or have never had options. (intimacy wise) I just chose to stay faithful. Well, it's getting harder and harder.

Side note: When she was pursuing her doctorate....I was the guy who held it together for our family. It took her 5 years. I never complained once. Yet there STILL was a lack of physical intimacy between us. Excuse after excuse after excuse. (yawn) I'm bored with it. I'm not even angry anymore. I wish her well.


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

Catherine602 said:


> Things change really fast for you. A SAHD to 4 children and loving husband fending off weekly gratuitous offers of sex from random women turns into an enraged man looking for women to ride in 3 short weeks.
> 
> I think your wife has you pegged and I suggest you get a D and ride those women 2 at a time. Who knows, maybe you'll finally earn your wife's admiration and respect and even your children's. I think you are confused though, your wife probably wants to have mutually satisfying sex with a man in control of himself. She's not conveniently at hand to give you a good ride.
> 
> Or go back to your outdoor life under that conveyance over a body of water.


I said that I am capable of securing gainful employment. I and able to contribute in anyway I can. This situation did not just arise. I took the advice of many people here. Unfortunately, when I make up my mind, things happen pretty quickly for me. I am as driven as anyone else. For you or anyone to tell me it is normal for a perfectly healthy woman to deny her husband sex for 3 years is absurd. What's even more absurd is for me to be that understanding. Whenever I bring it up, "See, I was just about to do it." Now the clock resets another 3 months. I should have called her out on this in 2011. Convenience is one thing. Neglect to and emotional abandonment is another. By the way, I've tried to leave but she threw and epic emotional hissy and professed how much she loves me. "You're leaving me? What have I done?" Is what I get.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Tomcat, 

You think you fine just the way you are? You've done all that's required and she ought to just fall at your feet for it. How's that mindset working? We all do out best to work hard, live clean and give of ourselves. That's just the cost of living, it doesn't entitle you intimacy. Whether it's with her on not. 

Do you even read what you write? No resentment, anger or entitlement on your part... Here's a hint, little boys get upset when they don't get what they want. They scream out "it's not fair". Not grown men. Grown men go out and do something about it.

Best

BTW, I agree with Catherine. I'm sure your W wants to have mutually satisfying sex with a man.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

x598 said:


> bingo. and i agree with the other poster who said if the shoe was on the other foot....and she was a SAHM.....they would be sunginger her praises and complimenting her for the scarifices she is making.
> 
> instead...you are beta for doing the work that still has to be done.
> 
> find out who your wife is interested in instead of you.


The issue here is sex. And whether you like it or not, women have very different deciding factors on what makes them want to have sex with their man. Women's #1 Emotional Needs is usually security - financial, physical, mental. And through mankind's 20,000+ years on this planet, the man has been the one to provide that security; it's in our DNA to want a man who provides. Yes, things are changing now that women are 'allowed' to work the past 50 years, but our psychological preferences and needs aren't going to change that fast - women are going to get turned on by strong, successful men and will take for granted the quieter, less gung-ho, less driven men. For at least another 200-300 years, I'd guess.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

turnera said:


> The issue here is sex. And whether you like it or not, women have very different deciding factors on what makes them want to have sex with their man. Women's #1 Emotional Needs is usually security - financial, physical, mental. And through mankind's 20,000+ years on this planet, the man has been the one to provide that security; it's in our DNA to want a man who provides. Yes, things are changing now that women are 'allowed' to work the past 50 years, but our psychological preferences and needs aren't going to change that fast - women are going to get turned on by strong, successful men and will take for granted the quieter, less gung-ho, less driven men. *For at least another 200-300 years, I'd guess.*


So just hang in there, the end is in sight! :grin2:

Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your waitress.

But seriously, there's a lot of truth in what you're being told here. It's simple evolutionary psychology, you can look it up.

That being said, in your shoes I'd be out the door. Well, she'd be out the door since you, as the stay at home parent, would likely get custody and the house while she would get visitation. It's not as guaranteed as if you were a woman but you have a better chance.

See a lawyer and find out where you stand in your jurisdiction. Find out if infidelity plays a part, if so investigate your wife to see if she's getting her needs met elsewhere. Don't tell her what you're doing while you're doing it, only tell her if you decide to pull the trigger and divorce.


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

Catherine602 said:


> Things change really fast for you. A SAHD to 4 children and loving husband fending off weekly gratuitous offers of sex from random women turns into an enraged man looking for women to ride in 3 short weeks.
> 
> I think your wife has you pegged and I suggest you get a D and ride those women 2 at a time. Who knows, maybe you'll finally earn your wife's admiration and respect and even your children's. I think you are confused though, your wife probably wants to have mutually satisfying sex with a man in control of himself. She's not conveniently at hand to give you a good ride.
> 
> Or go back to your outdoor life under that conveyance over a body of water.





anchorwatch said:


> Tomcat,
> 
> You think you fine just the way you are? You've done all that's required and she ought to just fall at your feet for it. How's that mindset working? We all do out best to work hard, live clean and give of ourselves. That's just the cost of living, it doesn't entitle you intimacy. Whether it's with her on not.
> 
> ...


I was silent for 3 years. I did not get upset. I waited for her to at least initiate something. NOTHING. She's not into me. When I initiate physical intimacy...REJECTION. I'm just tired. Mind you, I am not pushy but I should have said something in year one. It doesn't mater what I do. She doesn't want me to leave, but she doesn't want sex. I'd be satisfied with once a month at this point.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Okay. So what are you going to do about it besides complain?


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

TomCat11 said:


> I was silent for 3 years. I did not get upset. I waited for her to at least initiate something. NOTHING. She's not into me. When I initiate physical intimacy...REJECTION. I'm just tired. Mind you, I am not pushy but I should have said something in year one. It doesn't mater what I do. She doesn't want me to leave, but she doesn't want sex. I'd be satisfied with once a month at this point.


Tomcat, don't you see how passive aggressive you're being?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Look, brother.

Two years ago, I was you. Anchorwatch and Turnera can attest to it. They both helped me through it. 

But you aren't listening to them. What they are advocating for is acceptance by you that the only thing you can control is you. 

Instead, you are improving yourself not for you but for her. And then when said control fails (again), you get mad at her. 

All you are doing is changing the curtains and drapes, while the house is falling down around you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you read No More Mr Nice Guy? What farsidejunky describes is Nice Guy behavior, covert contracts, and changing to GET something. None of which works to 'get' you sex.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

The solution to your problem?

Get. A. Job.

Who cares if you can "never earn what she earns"???

Quit being a house-husband. Perhaps your wife will look at you differently when she can respect you.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

TomCat11 said:


> I was silent for 3 years. I did not get upset. I waited for her to at least initiate something. NOTHING. She's not into me. When I initiate physical intimacy...REJECTION. I'm just tired. Mind you, I am not pushy but I should have said something in year one. It doesn't mater what I do. She doesn't want me to leave, but she doesn't want sex. I'd be satisfied with once a month at this point.


Perfectly legit feelings. Now you need to move from anger and venting to thinking and planning. What actions will you take, what's the timeline, what's the benchmarks along the way and how will you ensure that your children suffer as little as possible. 

Your wife appears to be coasting. If what your describe is accurate, she is putting much less effort into her marriage and husband than into her career. She may actually love you deeply but she does not see you. It's common, when someone is always there they tend to become background noise. You have to put yourself front and center. Take charge of something. 

Remember when you had plans and goals and you were driven by your own volition to attain them? You did not reference your wife, they were your dreams, right? You invited her to join you on your journey. It's time to get that spark back. That's what you lost and nothing else. The rest of you is probably fine. Is there something wrong with you? Hell to the no. There is something wrong with the way your are thinking. 

A man with a plan who is hitting his benchmarks is irresistible.


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> Okay. So what are you going to do about it besides complain?


Point well made and received. I have been raising 4 boys and I am not ready to put them through a divorce. I'm going to start my new job on Monday morning & go to class in the evening. Friday & Saturday evening is music time with my band. She'll have to figure out how to dress the kids, make them breakfast, pack lunches and take them to school, pick them up and handle parent teacher conferences, plays, practices, choir rehearsals, Doctors appointments, field trips and such. My time with the kids will have to be Saturdays and Sundays. It would appear that SAHD are not sexy. (Remember: She works from home.) It'll be easy for her. 

Bottom line is this: SAHD are not sexy. :smile2:


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

Catherine602 said:


> Perfectly legit feelings. Now you need to move from anger and venting to thinking and planning. What actions will you take, what's the timeline, what's the benchmarks along the way and how will you ensure that your children suffer as little as possible.
> 
> Your wife appears to be coasting. If what your describe is accurate, she is putting much less effort into her marriage and husband than into her career. She may actually love you deeply but she does not see you. It's common, when someone is always there they tend to become background noise. You have to put yourself front and center. Take charge of something.
> 
> ...


I'm on it. Yesterday she asked me, "What are you up to? You seem so busy lately". I replied "Handling some stuff I should have taken care of a while ago. Have no fear. I'll keep you in the loop." She just stared at me for a second. She wanted to say "Tell me!!!" LOL!!!


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Keep it up! You are planning to make yourself a better person, husband, lover, father and so much more. It needs to be self directed. You can't do something then go to yur wife for her approval. "Honey i got my degree now what do i need to do to impress you" That's all wrong. Instead, "I've decided to get a degree in finance. I've researched the job potential in that market and it looks like a good longterm strategy for us. I've already looked at ways that we can swing it, let me show you". 

Not exactly but you get what I am saying. It has to be something you really feel passionate about and are determined to do. I'm not speaking abstractly Tom, it's what happened to me and my husband. I brought into his dream at the cost of my career. He had the passion, drive and bull-like determination. He also presented the change as something that the whole family benefits from. 

Find a passion and self direction and follow it. She is not sure you can protect the family and it's all on her. You know you can but she is not convinced. All will come to you - your wife's respect, show of love and intimacy. Maybe not but, you have to pull out all the stops in this relationship or you will fail in the next, should it come to that.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

She works long hours during the week. You do your music now weekends.

When exactly have the two of you had any time to spend together, just the two of you?

Did you read that book "His Needs, Her Needs"? Also read "Love Busters", both by Dr. Harley.


Could you describe what your angry outbursts are like? How do they get started? What do you say. What does she say? How often are they?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> A man with a plan who is hitting his benchmarks is irresistible.



Please allow me to roll on the floor laughing.

Some people simply don't see the value in sex. It's that simple. We can create Rube Goldberg like intimacy improvement plans and they generally work as well as trying to teach my daughter's cat how to use photoshop. Not well.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Perhaps I should have said "A man with a plan who is hitting his benchmarks has increased odds of (insert whatever)..." How's that? You deal in probabilities, no? Why shouldn't a relationship between a man and women yield to the same probabilities as can be observed in the universe? There are no guarantees in life but does that mean he should not do what he can to increase his odds?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Aha! Probabilities she said.

True, in the sense that if you try many different men, women will be more likely to be attracted to the described one. 

False, in the sense that for a given man and a given woman already in a relationship, then hitting on all cylinders won't improve anything. Or maybe the Dr. John infamous "5% improvement after 95% effort" fvck it moment


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

john117 said:


> Aha! Probabilities she said.
> 
> True, in the sense that if you try many different men, women will be more likely to be attracted to the described one.
> 
> False, in the sense that for a given man and a given woman already in a relationship, then hitting on all cylinders won't improve anything. Or maybe the Dr. John infamous "5% improvement after 95% effort" fvck it moment


I really dont think women realize how much more they could get out of their husbands when sex is "right". I have resolved not to initiate or bring it up again. I really am too busy right now. I just hope that when she decides that she's ready (three years was the longest stint) that I am even in the mood. I've proven that I can go long periods without. I know that I sacrificed a whole bunch for her to be excellent in her field. Those days are over. I'm going after my own excellence now.


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> She works long hours during the week. You do your music now weekends.
> 
> When exactly have the two of you had any time to spend together, just the two of you?
> 
> ...


Whenever I suggest going out or getting a babysitter, that is the beginning of a new argument. Whenever I suggest that we spend a few minutes extra cuddling....there's an excuse. Whenever I reach out and suggest sex, I get "That's all you think about!" argument starts! Trust me, I say very mean things and so does she. We attack everything from, anatomy to education, to family to EVERYTHING! The only difference is, she says I am the reason she says those things....never apologizes. I end up in tears and apologizing profusely. 

Look, I love my wife but I'm realizing that I love me more. I forgot to love me over the past 15 years and now the chickens have come home to roost.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

OMG this is terrible. I wish there was a way that you both could stop, declare a truce and then reproach each other with good professional help. 

Your marriage may endure but only till one of you finds an out. The timing will not be convenient for the person being left. Does your wife want to stay married, does she want an intact family for the children or is she ok with D? Do you think she even thinks that D is a possibility and that she might have to live a life separated from the man she thinks is the source of the problems. 

I don't advocate instilling fear, it would be better if she realized that she could lose someone that she loves. But sometimes fear is an attention getter and counting blessing is the result.


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

5 Month Update: 

Working at a middle school . Graduating in the spring with honors. My 4 kids are thriving. Band RIPPING it up every weekend. Doing volunteer work with a national mentoring program and lost 20 more pounds, Talked to a therapist.....Still no affection. No sex. Barely a kiss. Would not even make herself available to go to dinner on out 15th anniversary (Last week) 

The verdict? My wife is a narcissist. I could **** tiffany cufflinks, it would not matter. There is nothing I can do other than deal with it or leave. All I can do for you is post this to help those who find themselves in a similar situation as me:

10 Signs your partner may have narcissistic traits
He or she...
1	Expects continued appreciation and admiration from you and others
2	Overestimates their abilities and underestimates the contribution of others
3	Fantasises about unlimited success in whatever they do
4	Compares themselves very favourable with high-status people, assuming only they will understand and truly appreciate them
5	Is often unreasonably demanding - having unrealistic expectations from you (and others)
6	Contributes very little to the relationship
7	Has little or no empathy, often sneers, is contemptuous and over-critical of you and others
8	Is unwilling to discuss your feelings or concerns
9	Lacks insight into themselves and their behaviour
Lacks appreciation of you, your feelings, your values and beliefs, your interests and concerns

This is my wife to the letter. I can't fix that. Only me. 

Thanks everyone.

Side Note: There was a woman from my past who mysteriously appeared. We started having some "conversations" about "what-if" and we talked about sex a lot. When my wife found out, she was over the top aggressive with this woman. She texted the woman and was very mean to her. "Find your own husband." It shocked my wife into the reality that someone my be interested in what she's neglecting. I have since discontinued all contact with this woman at my wife's request. Nevertheless, she has not initiated any sort of intimacy in 7 months. At this point, I don't care. I'm good. (wink)


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So are you leaving her?


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> Why is your wife keeping the house running and financially supporting everyone? What are you contributing besides anger and demands for sex?
> 
> If you're not picking up your share and you're walking around mad that's not going to turn anyone on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If a woman was married to a hard charging corporate man, even a workaholic and slowly working towards a degree to try and contribute better, I highly doubt she gets that reply from you.

OP, women who support the household don't respect SAHD's (the acronym is SAD for Christ's sake), they say they do, but they don't. She doesn't have sex with you because she's emasculated you by bread winning and marginalizing your contributions to the marriage. The situation you're in rarely works long term. If I were you I would start making money, and keep making it until you're pulling more weight than her. In my experience women will not respect a man who doesn't pull significantly more weight than she does in the relationship.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

TomCat11 said:


> Whenever I suggest going out or getting a babysitter, that is the beginning of a new argument. Whenever I suggest that we spend a few minutes extra cuddling....there's an excuse. Whenever I reach out and suggest sex, I get "That's all you think about!" argument starts! Trust me, I say very mean things and so does she. We attack everything from, anatomy to education, to family to EVERYTHING! The only difference is, she says I am the reason she says those things....never apologizes. * I end up in tears and apologizing profusely. *
> 
> Look, I love my wife but I'm realizing that I love me more. I forgot to love me over the past 15 years and now the chickens have come home to roost.


You end up in tears and appologizing???? WTH, no respect, no sex. Real simple here. Read up on No More Mr Nice Guy. 

Have you tried following any advice rather than complaining about your predicament?

Your life is what you make it. No ones going to do it for you.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

TomCat11 said:


> 5 Month Update:
> 
> Working at a middle school . Graduating in the spring with honors. My 4 kids are thriving. Band RIPPING it up every weekend. Doing volunteer work with a national mentoring program and lost 20 more pounds, Talked to a therapist.....Still no affection. No sex. Barely a kiss. Would not even make herself available to go to dinner on out 15th anniversary (Last week)
> 
> ...


Have you initiated any intimacy in the last 7 months?

Have you asked your wife to go to counseling with you to work on getting the intimacy back in your marriage?


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

TomCat11 said:


> I want my wife to desire me. I need her to want me like I want her.


That will never happen. Get used to it.



TomCat11 said:


> My concern is that I know she masturbates but why would she do that when I have been crying out for affection and intimacy?


Because she doesn't love you.



TomCat11 said:


> Side note...we once went 3 years without sex. THREE YEARS!!!


That's HARDLY a side note. See above.




TomCat11 said:


> My friends, I feel like I've lost her. However, when I bring up divorce she is totally against it. She wants to grow old with me and swears better days are coming.


"When I bring up divorce".

How many times has that happened? It's obviously not fazing her. I rarely give this advice to a man, but serve her divorce papers. Make her think her marriage is truly over. That will SURELY change her tune. And if it doesn't? That tells you even more. That you need to follow through this time.

Threats are not going to change her. Words are cheap. ACTION is what you need.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Have you asked your wife to go to counseling with you to work on getting the intimacy back in your marriage?


This guy is surely busy freaking out about the state of his marriage, so I'll go ahead and answer for him:

"I did, but she said we don't need it. She just needs time. Things will get better"

I'm paraphrasing, of course, but I'm positive I'm pretty close.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

TomCat11 said:


> 5 Month Update:
> 
> Working at a middle school . Graduating in the spring with honors. My 4 kids are thriving. Band RIPPING it up every weekend. Doing volunteer work with a national mentoring program and lost 20 more pounds, Talked to a therapist.....Still no affection. No sex. Barely a kiss. Would not even make herself available to go to dinner on out 15th anniversary (Last week)
> 
> ...


Now you know beyond a shadow of a doubt.

What do you intend to do about it?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

I have tried to leave her no less than 50 times over the past 15 years. She will not have it. Because she is such a narcissist, she is more concerned with what people will think about her than actually doing the work to keep me here. She does not want to be seen as a woman who cannot keep a man. So she screams herself into a fit and guilts me into staying. Never apologizing for her behavior or committing to changing anything in the relationship. She requests that the change come explicitly from me. At one time she almost made me think that I was crazy. (Gas lighting) I went to a therapist and he assured me that my demands were not unreasonable and that I was not the problem. On top of that, she uses the kids as a weapon. "How can you destroy their lives? They deserve a chance at happiness." She's right. I love my kids with all my heart but I'd rather hear, "I'd be devastated if you left. I see you working on you and I appreciated it. I will work on me to be a better wife for you." Those words have NEVER been uttered by her. 

Here's what I have decided to do:

Honor my vows as best I can. Commit to the relationship for the sake of my kids (ages 12, 10, 5, 3) Realizing, now that I am married to a narcissist and use coping mechanisms to deal with her behavior. It's possible to live with a narcissist and not go crazy. Allow my close "friends" to give me what I need emotionally and physically. My kids will have a 2 parent household. They WILL continue to have a "hands on dad". And finally, wait on the day when it becomes HER idea for me to leave. I doubt that day will come because she HATES to lose. I don't care about winning or losing. I just want to be happy. I'm well on my way because of this "Ah Ha" moment.


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

knobcreek said:


> If a woman was married to a hard charging corporate man, even a workaholic and slowly working towards a degree to try and contribute better, I highly doubt she gets that reply from you.
> 
> OP, women who support the household don't respect SAHD's (the acronym is SAD for Christ's sake), they say they do, but they don't. She doesn't have sex with you because she's emasculated you by bread winning and marginalizing your contributions to the marriage. The situation you're in rarely works long term. If I were you I would start making money, and keep making it until you're pulling more weight than her. In my experience women will not respect a man who doesn't pull significantly more weight than she does in the relationship.


Not worth it. I will NEVER make as much money as her. However, I paid for all of her degrees. 2 masters and a doctorate. Go figure. I'm not trying to impress her anymore. She has a great husband...she just forgot. So, she'll have to remember on her own or let me go. Every time I pack a bag....she throws a tantrum.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

knobcreek said:


> If a woman was married to a hard charging corporate man, even a workaholic and slowly working towards a degree to try and contribute better, I highly doubt she gets that reply from you.
> 
> OP, women who support the household don't respect SAHD's (the acronym is SAD for Christ's sake), they say they do, but they don't. She doesn't have sex with you because she's emasculated you by bread winning and marginalizing your contributions to the marriage. The situation you're in rarely works long term. If I were you I would start making money, and keep making it until you're pulling more weight than her. In my experience women will not respect a man who doesn't pull significantly more weight than she does in the relationship.


It is misogynistic to say that what women *say *they want and what they *really *want are different. >


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

TomCat11 said:


> I have tried to leave her no less than 50 times over the past 15 years. She will not have it.


Who cares what she "will not have"? Are you in a cage?

If you are, call 911. Otherwise, leave.


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

Agreed. I believe she likes the idea of marriage. I think she wants to be married. I actually believe she wants to be married to me. I think she thinks that the document that says we're married is more powerful than the work required to stay married. I'm here to say that I have fallen out of love with her and I don't care if we have sex again. I'm beyond that now. I'm focused on my kids and keeping them squared away. No Joe is going to undo the work I've put into my boys. That's not gonna happen. I recognize the fact that I have the ability to get sex anytime so the pressure is off.


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

technovelist said:


> It is misogynistic to say that what women *say *they want and what they *really *want are different. >





technovelist said:


> Who cares what she "will not have"? Are you in a cage?
> 
> If you are, call 911. Otherwise, leave.


My kids are my cage. I refuse for them to be a stat. I work at a middle school and 70% of the kids there are growing up in a 1 parent household and it shows.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

technovelist said:


> It is misogynistic to say that what women *say *they want and what they *really *want are different. >


No, it's misogynistic to assume that no woman knows what she wants and needs a guy to tell her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

knobcreek said:


> If a woman was married to a hard charging corporate man, even a workaholic and slowly working towards a degree to try and contribute better, I highly doubt she gets that reply from you.
> 
> OP, women who support the household don't respect SAHD's (the acronym is SAD for Christ's sake), they say they do, but they don't. She doesn't have sex with you because she's emasculated you by bread winning and marginalizing your contributions to the marriage. The situation you're in rarely works long term. If I were you I would start making money, and keep making it until you're pulling more weight than her. In my experience women will not respect a man who doesn't pull significantly more weight than she does in the relationship.


Let's test this:

Hard charging hb who makes money but still has to come home and run the household while wife goes to school and is po'd because he has ED thanks to stress.

Nope, same advice, and I doubt you'd approve of such a situation. Besides, at the time I posted it wasn't clear what he did besides demand sex and walk around po'd, he's the one that said she was working and running the house. 

He clarified that he did indeed do his share.

And the money isn't the end all, I make more than my hubby and it doesn't bother me. I think it's because I otherwise see him as a man who handles stuff..... I'm just a nerd who fell into a high paying field.

I speak for myself there, I have no idea how his wife views things. 

I think he should walk but I understand his concern for the kids. If he's going to stick around he's going to need to adjust his expectations.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> No, it's misogynistic to assume that no woman knows what she wants and needs a guy to tell her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The more money they make, the more they know. However...I have NEVER been a guy who needs stuff to be happy. Relationships are way more precious than $$$. So, I will continue to contribute as best I can, if she's horny....I'll be around. If I'm horny....I'll make other arrangements.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

TomCat11 said:


> Every time I pack a bag....she throws a tantrum.


Don't UNpack it next time. That'll get her attention. You don't have to leave for good. You just have to let her THINK you are.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

TomCat11 said:


> The more money they make, the more they know. However...I have NEVER been a guy who needs stuff to be happy. Relationships are way more precious than $$$. So, I will continue to contribute as best I can, if she's horny....I'll be around. If I'm horny....I'll make other arrangements.


You probably shouldn't make generalizations. ....i make a fair amount and yes I have opinions, but I had opinions when I made less. 

I don't need much either, having been raised a cheap Jewish father, but I still make good money. And I like my job, it keeps me thinking. 

Great place to be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> You probably shouldn't make generalizations. ....i make a fair amount and yes I have opinions, but I had opinions when I made less.
> 
> I don't need much either, having been raised a cheap Jewish father, but I still make good money. And I like my job, it keeps me thinking.
> 
> ...


Lets get married. LOL!


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> Let's test this:
> 
> Hard charging hb who makes money but still has to come home and run the household while wife goes to school and is po'd because he has ED thanks to stress.
> 
> ...


I'm telling you. I understand what it is. She is a narcissist. If I made more money than her, she'd find a way to be pissed. I was recently honored as a trailblazer in our local music scene. Yes the word LEGENDARY was used in conjunction with my name in the newspaper article. Her response? "That's nice." Ugh! She constantly compares herself to the achievements of her peers while we live in a 5000 sqft home on close to 3 acres. Not bragging, but it's never enough. At some point you have to look at what you have and say, "This is good. We're okay." There is a hole that cannot be filled by me or no human alive with my wife. If that guy exists....he can have her AFTER my kids are done with school. The change has to come from her. I'm rambling a little but I understand that it takes 2 to make a marriage work. Even now, I have reconciled to do whats necessary for the sake of my kids knowing that there are other options for me me emotionally, recreationally and sexually.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

TomCat11 said:


> Lets get married. LOL!


If you can work it out with my hb we'll talk, lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

There is NO way he's letting you out of his sight. I'm happy for him. Happy for you both.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Okay, I just got all caught up. Phew. I think your situation simply boils down to having an overworked woman with too much stress in her life.

Everyone has been telling you to work on yourself and make yourself more confident, make more money, make yourself more attractive, etc. I think that's all wrong. She could be married to the most awesome man on the planet, but since new relationship energy has worn off, her situation doesn't give her a chance to feel desirous of him.

Your wife simply works too hard, too many hours, is under too much stress, is too busy, has too many demands on her time and gets too little rest, to feel like a sexual being. Your attempts at intimacy with her just seem like one more demand on her time. As marriage is a partnership, she feels that there are sacrifices she is making, and unfortunately, intimacy is one of them, and she feels it's natural for you to do the same. By her talk of things getting better in the future, I think she feels the situation is temporary, and that maybe things will naturally improve as the children are older, or she's more established in her career.

So the question is, WHY does she feel the need to work so hard? WHY isn't she getting enough sleep at night? WHY doesn't she have time to go on dates with you? (Also, WHY did you have more children when the situation had already been in evidence with the first ones?) WHY does she feel sex is additional work she has to do for you, instead of being something mutual?

In a 'traditional' marriage, the man is the hard worker earning the money and the woman is the more supportive domestic partner. Men's sexuality is usually such that a bit of effort even when tired reaps a big reward in the form of stress reduction, while women's sexuality often means that the stress has to be low to begin with for there to be a reward at all.

You have the reverse of that 'typical' work-domesticity situation, which is fine in modern society, but your sexualities are not reversed.

You may think that the fact that she masturbates means she's still sexual, but withholding it from you out of neglect, however I think that's reading malice where there isn't any. I think her approach is more accurately thought of as her stress relief. Instead of being pressured to be responsible for YOUR release, she knows she's guaranteed to get her own.

So, things you could do to improve the situation:

Do whatever it takes to reduce her work hours. Does she work that hard to pay down debt? Come up with a debt reduction plan by earning a bit more, spending less frivolously, etc.
Do whatever it takes to reduce her additional work. Take on more of the child care and housework, or hire someone to help you both. Sure, it's nice if a parenting partnership is 50-50, but her work hours are all out of proportion so something has to give here.
Do whatever it takes to make her believe sex is mutual and that you aren't just badgering her for your own benefit. Overcome her thinking that sex is only for YOU. Offer sexual activity that is just for HER. Are you a skilled lover or a selfish one? Offer physical affection that is guaranteed not to lead to sex. Make physical connection with her about her enjoyment and not yours. Eventually, she'll come around to the idea that she can seek you out instead of masturbating.
Get your anger and resentment under control. She can sense that, and it's unattractive and would get in the way of intimacy even if all of the above fell into place.


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

It's worth ANOTHER try. I'm not very optimistic because I'm losing my fire for her. I've approached the I really don't care point when it comes to her needs. I have tried EVERYTHING you've mentioned. Remember, the longest stretch without sexual intimacy was 3 years. We're at 8 months now. Every single time I mention ANYTHING sexual, (directly or indirectly) it starts an argument and it resets the clock. I get, "See, I was just about too....." from her. So I go long stretches of pretending that I'm not interested in sex. (keep in mind I'm a musician who is constantly propositioned by strangers and in some cases people she knows) I'm tired. She cannot think that this is acceptable. So, she can masturbate until the cows come home. I don't care anymore. My anger is solely based on the fact that she THINKS it's normal for me to not desire sex. If I had known this prior to us getting married, we would have not gotten married. Although, in retrospect, there were signs. I ignored them. Thanks for your advice. Her motivation for working so hard is based on her desire to be in control and respected and not money. Style over substance with her. My mentality is, give me quality of life over standard of living any day.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

TomCat11 said:


> My anger is solely based on the fact that she THINKS it's normal for me to not desire sex. If I had known this prior to us getting married, we would have not gotten married. Although, in retrospect, there were signs. I ignored them. Thanks for your advice. Her motivation for working so hard is based on her desire to be in control and respected and not money. Style over substance with her. My mentality is, give me quality of life over standard of living any day.


I doubt she thinks it's normal for you to not desire sex. I think she thinks it's normal to set that desire aside in favour of other things, like earning a good living and being an involved parent. It works for her, so she can't fathom that it doesn't also work for you.

And if her motivation is status among her peers, where do you fit into that? She evidently doesn't receive a status boost by being able to boast about her music star husband. You may find better results from flattering her than doing anything else like demanding her attention. Does she also pressure the children to be successful because it reflects well on her as a parent?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I think hopeful cynic has a good point about her changing herself into a non sexual being and that her priorities are different than yours. Some couples can overcome this by working together but the marriage must be a priority for both; in your case it sounds like keeping the marriage is a priority for her but nurturing it and having a close relationship with you is not. 

And she likely doesn't respect your line of work. She doesn't think it's important, I'd bet she views it as a hobby rather than a career. 

I'm not sure you guys are compatible. I really think you should end this, she will throw a tantrum because it's worked but you must be firm. Otherwise I'll tell you what I advise women with detached hb's to do.....build your own life that doesn't include her and stop thinking about her as part of your life. Maybe at some point she'll miss you, but I think what's more likely is that you'll meet someone that you can really connect with and all hvll will break lose.

Thanks for the kind words  My hb is a great guy most of the time and has commented that I'd have no problem replacing him. I suppose that's true but I don't think he gives himself enough credit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> No, it's misogynistic to assume that no woman knows what she wants and needs a guy to tell her.


I didn't say women don't *know *what they want. I implied that they may *say *they want one thing but actually want something else.

Do you claim that every woman wants exactly what she says she wants? That seems highly unlikely.

Now before someone accuses me of misogyny again, it is also true that men sometimes say they want one thing but actually want another. But that isn't the topic here.


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

The biggest mistake I made was giving up my career to enhance hers. As I stated before, I am highly employable and maintain several professional licenses (series 6, 7 and 63 as well as insurances and mortgage broker) When I applied for the position at my son's middle school, I was hired on the spot. I refuse to be viewed as a scrub. It just so happens that my "hobby" earns me money and respect in a world that she has no connection with. However, she has no problem comparing me with other musicians and band leaders. I'm telling you, my wife is a narcissist and it will not matter if I was the CEO of IBM, she would downplay it and try to figure out why she's not the CEO of Apple. 

That's something that I cannot fix and I accept it. 

You're a wise woman and you will be married forever because of it.


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I doubt she thinks it's normal for you to not desire sex. I think she thinks it's normal to set that desire aside in favour of other things, like earning a good living and being an involved parent. It works for her, so she can't fathom that it doesn't also work for you.
> 
> And if her motivation is status among her peers, where do you fit into that? She evidently doesn't receive a status boost by being able to boast about her music star husband. You may find better results from flattering her than doing anything else like demanding her attention. Does she also pressure the children to be successful because it reflects well on her as a parent?


I'm the guy who goes to ALL of the parent teacher conferences, PTA meetings and open houses. Here's a PERFECT example of what I'm dealing with. I'm on the SAC and my 2 son's elementary school. She "allowed" me to be involved because she was too busy. Then, when my middle school son's principal asked if she's like to be president....she jumped at the chance. "Of course. I'd be honored." See what happened there? Being a member not exciting. PRESIDENT? Well, there's an ego boost and more status. Gimme!!! Classic NARCISSIST.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Having affairs, emotional or physical doesn't help anything or anyone. You went NC with your "friend" which is good but you never reconciled fully with your wife and it doesn't sound like either of you did the work to get through it. 

If you aren't planning on working towards fixing things, it doesn't do anyone any good to stay. 

If you do want to work on things I'd recommend Marriage Builders ® - Successful Marriage Advice


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## marriedmanhere (Aug 2, 2012)

TomCat11 said:


> Here's what I have decided to do:
> 
> Allow my close "friends" to give me what I need emotionally and physically.




Did I read this correctly? Are you having an affair?
If so, stop.


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

marriedmanhere said:


> Did I read this correctly? Are you having an affair?
> If so, stop.


Not having an affair. Don't have time. Not yet.


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Having affairs, emotional or physical doesn't help anything or anyone. You went NC with your "friend" which is good but you never reconciled fully with your wife and it doesn't sound like either of you did the work to get through it.
> 
> If you aren't planning on working towards fixing things, it doesn't do anyone any good to stay.
> 
> If you do want to work on things I'd recommend Marriage Builders ® - Successful Marriage Advice


My kids are the key. Plain and simple. That's all that matters. I've given all a reasonable man can give. I'll be dead in a few years if I continue to try to live up to the unreasonable expectations of my wife. This marriage will end but it will be her idea. I'm okay with that. You cannot reason with this type of narcissism. Trust me. Once she's done, it's done. I served her with papers and she swears she wants the marriage but I was destroying it. Nothing could be farther from the truthShe takes zero ownership for the neglect. when I had my nose to the grindstone while she worked on her doctorate for 4 and a half years, I said nothing about the lack of intimacy.. My accomplishments and contributions are grossly undervalued and she will never understand that.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

TomCat11 said:


> My kids are the key. Plain and simple. That's all that matters. I've given all a reasonable man can give. I'll be dead in a few years if I continue to try to live up to the unreasonable expectations of my wife. This marriage will end but it will be her idea. I'm okay with that. You cannot reason with this type of narcissism. Trust me. Once she's done, it's done. I served her with papers and she swears she wants the marriage but I was destroying it. Nothing could be farther from the truthShe takes zero ownership for the neglect. when I had my nose to the grindstone while she worked on her doctorate for 4 and a half years, I said nothing about the lack of intimacy.. My accomplishments and contributions are grossly undervalued and she will never understand that.


This is ridiculous! You give her a label and decide that you have to stay because you named it?? And guess what, you don't NEED her permission to divorce her! Make your plan and move all your sh!t out one day while she is at work and file for divorce! I divorced my second husband without ONE SINGLE WORD or signature from him! Staying in the marriage and cheating on her is the most despicable plan ever! What kind of example are you setting for your children? You think they don't see the bullsh!t you are dealing with? THEY DO. Grow some balls, man, and divorce the woman.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

TomCat11 said:


> My question is, is it unreasonabe or even irrational for me to want to have sexual intimacy with her once a week?


I'll keep this answer short so there's less room to maneuver or make excuses:

YES


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## Hope Shimmers (Jul 10, 2015)

TomCat11 said:


> I have tried to leave her no less than 50 times over the past 15 years. She will not have it.



Does she have you chained up in the basement?

You say you have to stay so the kids have a 2-parent household, then you say that you basically have lost all feelings for her and that you will have affairs to meet your physical and emotional needs. What part of THAT plan sets a healthy example for your kids? 

You claim that kids from single-parent households are messed up. But you are not abandoning your role as parent. Neither would your wife, I assume. So your kids would have two parents just like they do now. I've been divorced since 2007 and we have raised 3 extremely bright, successful, and fantastic kids. 

If you split up, the difference would be that you and your wife weren't living in misery under the same roof and merely existing for THE KIDS' sake. Kids aren't stupid. They know when their parents are unhappy. What kind of example does this set for them?

Another avenue might be to man up and file for divorce and tell your wife things are going to change. If I were married and my husband tried to leave at least 50 times and all I had to do was throw a fit, cast some guilt around, and scream a little, I would be walking all over him just like a doormat on a regular basis. If he couldn't call me out on my sh*t, forget the respect.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

TomCat11 said:


> Not worth it. I will NEVER make as much money as her. However, I paid for all of her degrees. 2 masters and a doctorate. Go figure. I'm not trying to impress her anymore. She has a great husband...she just forgot. So, she'll have to remember on her own or let me go. Every time I pack a bag....she throws a tantrum.


What did you do for her TODAY.

nah, you're a has been and no longer needed, she only needs a status sugar daddy now. And you sure aren't it so why would she get worked up over landing you?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

TomCat11 said:


> Side Note: There was a woman from my past who mysteriously appeared. We started having some "conversations" about "what-if" and we talked about sex a lot. When my wife found out, she was over the top aggressive with this woman. She texted the woman and was very mean to her. "Find your own husband." It shocked my wife into the reality that someone my be interested in what she's neglecting. I have since discontinued all contact with this woman at my wife's request. Nevertheless, she has not initiated any sort of intimacy in 7 months. At this point, I don't care. I'm good. (wink)


This is an emotional affair. You're planning more affairs so you're still in the wayward mindset. Your wife has problems but you're also doing some seeing her through fog right now. She's not a narcissist. She's just not attracted to you, your behavior, your anger and now is getting over finding an emotional affair that you have no remorse over and will do again. 
None of those things make a woman want to have sex with you. Instead of doing any of the things people recommended to you months ago, you had an affair and wonder why nothing is fixed. 

You need to leave this marriage because you don't care to do anything to fix it.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

TomCat11 said:


> It's worth ANOTHER try. I'm not very optimistic because I'm losing my fire for her. I've approached the I really don't care point when it comes to her needs. I have tried EVERYTHING you've mentioned. Remember, the longest stretch without sexual intimacy was 3 years. We're at 8 months now. Every single time I mention ANYTHING sexual, (directly or indirectly) it starts an argument and it resets the clock. I get, "See, I was just about too....." from her. So I go long stretches of pretending that I'm not interested in sex. (keep in mind I'm a musician who is constantly propositioned by strangers and in some cases people she knows) I'm tired. She cannot think that this is acceptable. So, she can masturbate until the cows come home. I don't care anymore. My anger is solely based on the fact that she THINKS it's normal for me to not desire sex. If I had known this prior to us getting married, we would have not gotten married. Although, in retrospect, there were signs. I ignored them. Thanks for your advice. Her motivation for working so hard is based on her desire to be in control and respected and not money. Style over substance with her. My mentality is, give me quality of life over standard of living any day.


Allow me to share something about my past. 

I hit a point in my first marriage where I decided that I was never, ever having sex with my husband again. I never came out and told him this. When we divorced, it had been over two years since we had had sex. Here are my reasons WHY:

- He never, ever showed me any affection at all. NONE. No cuddling on the couch. No kissing. If I asked for a hug when he got home from work, he would roll his eyes at me and give me this half assed, one arm hug. So him reaching for me in bed because he wanted sex was, to me, the ultimate in hypocrisy and extremely insulting to me. 

- He never wanted to spend time with me.

- He drank too much. It wasn't an every day thing, but when he would drink (few times a week), he drank to excess, and was an a$$hole when he did. He drank alone in the basement. 

- He started coming to bed in the same clothes he worked in, which were disgusting and dirty. (machine shop) Which of course meant he never showered after work either. 

- He was angry much of the time, and unapproachable. There could be no discussion about any of this because there couldn't be anything that resembled criticism of him. 

- The sex just flat out SUCKED, it was horrible! Sex was not supposed to be fun, evidently. And as I mentioned, you couldn't tell him anything. He actually criticized my body when I asked him to change how he was performing oral, saying there was something wrong with me! There was no fun, no tenderness, no passion...it SUCKED. So I didn't want to do it any more!

I had resigned myself to the fact that I was now just a non-sexual being. I had no desire at all, and never even thought about sex any more. UNTIL....a new guy started at the place that I worked and just his presence woke my body up! I had NO IDEA I could still be capable of having those kinds of desires, I thought I was dead to it. I ended up having TWO affairs before I filed for divorce. I had ended the first one pretty quickly, disgusted with myself. Then when I got into the second one, it was a smack in the face, the reality of the true state of my marriage and how unbelievably unhappy I was. I moved out and filed for divorce. 

I am not making excuses for what I did, cheating never should have been the choice I made. I just wanted to post this to give a view from the other side of the situation. OP you may think that your wife is just not interested in sex, but the reality is that she isn't interested in sex with YOU, and chances are high that someone is going to come along at some point and make her realize this.


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## Hope Shimmers (Jul 10, 2015)

Here's another thing that really bothers me about your situation. And I don't mean to come across as harsh. But one of my best friends is in your exact same financial situation in her marriage (where she works her a** off and her husband plays in a band one or maybe two nights on the weekend, for about $700 or so a night (from which he must deduct expenses) and that's all the income he brings in. 

She too has little kids and she is beyond frustrated that he basically is never home on the weekend evenings and she is left to do everything with the house and kids. She works about 60 hours a week to put food on the table and pay the bills, and his financial contribution is what I mentioned above.

This guy is in his late 30's. If he hasn't hit it big and famous yet, it's not likely to happen. He has a family including several young kids. He has a wife. Yet he considers this music thing his "job". Fact is - when you have those kind of responsibilities, something like this is not your "job". It's a hobby, and you need to find a way to contribute more equally to the marriage financially.

UNLESS there is an understanding and full support that he will be Mr Mom. That is actually the arrangement my friend has, but the part with him being gone all the time wears on her. Also, she feels resentment in a way, that he is doing exactly what he wants (playing in a band) despite the fact that it doesn't pay the bills, and she feels like she is propping him up so that he can do it. 

I know that if he would suck it up, say "hey, this is a good HOBBY but it's not paying our BILLS", then she would see him as much more of a man. As it is, their sex life is suffering because she doesn't want sex with him (she is drawn to other men, and so far I've talked her out of having 2 different EAs). They fight all the time because she's exhausted and he's always gone during her only down time (the weekends). She is stressed and resentful and angry.

I get that there are more "fun" things than careers and working. I love to dance, but until someone offers to pay me a six-figure salary for dancing, I go to work and dancing is a hobby.

I just think you should consider how she might be feeling - especially after you had an EA and don't seem to be the least remorseful and in fact, are talking about having more affairs. And you wonder why she doesn't want sex with you?

Many/most of the attributes you mentioned in your "narcissistic" list can also be symptoms of all of the above. Your labeling her as a narcissist does not give you freedom to write off the marriage mentally, completely check out of it emotionally and physically, and go off and have affairs.


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

OP, you are in your late 30s. You have 4 children. Your wife has 2 master's degrees and a doctorate. She works 60 hours a week. She is the breadwinner, working hard to pay for your bills. You are a musician and works during the weekends only. Who takes care of your children? Who does the housework and chores around the house?

I have as many degrees as your wife have, with a doctorate degree. I work as many hours as your wife. In some weeks, maybe more. She is physically very tired. 

If you want more attention, you need to step up the bat and get gainfully employed. She is putting food on the table and putting a roof over the heads of the entire family (six people total). She is simply exhausted. If you step up the bat and bring income home, she can get some relief. Perhaps, she won't have to work so many long hours and can give you the time and attention that you want.

You are acting like an entitled prince. Do your share of the work and get a real job and pull your weight!


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Roselyn said:


> OP, you are in your late 30s. You have 4 children. Your wife has 2 master's degrees and a doctorate. She works 60 hours a week. She is the breadwinner, working hard to pay for your bills. You are a musician and works during the weekends only. Who takes care of your children? Who does the housework and chores around the house?
> 
> I have as many degrees as your wife have, with a doctorate degree. I work as many hours as your wife. In some weeks, maybe more. She is physically very tired.
> 
> ...


Fine advice, but I can only imagine what the reaction would be if that same advice were given to someone with the exact same story except for the sexes being reversed.


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## Hope Shimmers (Jul 10, 2015)

technovelist said:


> Fine advice, but I can only imagine what the reaction would be if that same advice were given to someone with the exact same story except for the sexes being reversed.


I agree with this, and I thought of it too. The gender double standard does play a role.

In all honesty, though, it's reality. In trying to explain how she likely feels, it is probably accurate. Is it "right"? Maybe not. Again - if the couple agrees that he is going to be Mr Mom and she will be the breadwinner, and everyone is truly GOOD with this, then it shouldn't be.

Easier said than done. 

And it might have something to do with being gone most weekend nights to do the "fun" activity that is supposed to be the "job" - while he admittedly has an entourage of women who hit on him because he's a "musician". Same with my friend's husband. Not sure a wife would get away with that in the flip situation.


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

Hope Shimmers: You've missed the point. We contribute equally. She earns more money than me. She has hobbies and lives a full life. It just so happens, my hobby puts money in my pocket. I financed 3 post secondary degrees....you know what, I think this is the wrong forum. She is absolutely a narcissist and that's not something I invented to make me feel better. I can't fix it. She has to. All I can do is hope that she realizes that I tolerate her behavior but I am human and I have a breaking point. She could choose another line of work if it's too much. I did it for her.


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

technovelist said:


> Fine advice, but I can only imagine what the reaction would be if that same advice were given to someone with the exact same story except for the sexes being reversed.


Same rule should apply to both men and women. I have no sympathy for women who don't pull their weight.


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## TomCat11 (Jul 20, 2015)

Roselyn said:


> Same rule should apply to both men and women. I have no sympathy for women who don't pull their weight.


She has to show ID when she has to pick up the kids from school because no one knows who she is. Mind you, I have gainful employment too. I'm also in school. Kids have cub scouts, Football practice, track practice...after school programs homework. Laundry, cleaning.....

I'm tired as hell too. But, if she said....I need sex, guess what?

Listen...It won't matter what I do. She's not right. It doesn't matter who her husband is....he'll have the same mountain to climb.


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

TomCat11 said:


> Hope Shimmers: You've missed the point. We contribute equally. She earns more money than me. She has hobbies and lives a full life. It just so happens, my hobby puts money in my pocket. I financed 3 post secondary degrees....you know what, I think this is the wrong forum. She is absolutely a narcissist and that's not something I invented to make me feel better. I can't fix it. She has to. All I can do is hope that she realizes that I tolerate her behavior but I am human and I have a breaking point. She could choose another line of work if it's too much. I did it for her.


OP, your reasoning doesn't fly. I married my husband at age 22 and my husband was 24. He financed my graduate education and reinvented his career so that I could pursue my direction. He's career reinvention is in line with his hobbies just like yours. We are married ongoing 36 years and it is working as we help and respect each other.

You say that she is an "absolute narcissist". What is her field of study? In some career paths, you must demonstrate a degree of confidence if you are to survive. In a male dominated society, professional men are considered "assertive" while the female counterpart is called "aggressive" and behind her back, a "beech". Read between the lines. 

You wife did not obtain her Ph.D. with money alone, the hard work is way beyond the monetary funds spent. She will not abandon her career to trade with poverty, especially that you have 4 children.

You both need to see a marriage counselor, as soon as possible, if you wish to survive in this marriage.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

TomCat11 said:


> She has to show ID when she has to pick up the kids from school because no one knows who she is. Mind you, I have gainful employment too. I'm also in school. Kids have cub scouts, Football practice, track practice...after school programs homework. Laundry, cleaning.....
> 
> I'm tired as hell too. But, if she said....I need sex, guess what?
> 
> Listen...It won't matter what I do. She's not right. It doesn't matter who her husband is....he'll have the same mountain to climb.


Many women need to have the relationship part going well to want sex. This can conflict with many men who need the sex part going well to want to work on the relationship.

You're BOTH in taker-mode. You want, she wants. Neither are willing to give before you get and you're in a stubborn headlock. If one does give a little, they want immediate reward. Ex- you do something nice, have a date night and want sex after. It's normal and in a marriage that's going well it should be an expectation. 

You have a marriage that was falling apart, anger, unattractive behavior, trust issues and you want sex, and not just sex but for her to initiate it. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just saying it's not a place where a lot of women want to go jump you. 

How much time do you spend together each week alone, without the kids? You need 15 hours to maintain love. What are her emotional needs? Are you meeting them? She's told you that anger is a "love buster" for her, how have you worked on stopping that?

It would take time and effort from the both of you to get to a good place and if one or both of you isn't willing to do it then there's no point in staying married.
You're the only one here so you'd be the one to make the first steps, without needing instant results and rewards from them. I was in the same boat so I know how hard that is to do, when you feel like you're the one wronged and you have to do the work to fix it. It doesn't seem fair. 
How One Spouse Can Lead the Other Back to Intimacy


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Hope Shimmers said:


> I agree with this, and I thought of it too. The gender double standard does play a role.
> 
> In all honesty, though, it's reality. In trying to explain how she likely feels, it is probably accurate. Is it "right"? Maybe not. Again - if the couple agrees that he is going to be Mr Mom and she will be the breadwinner, and everyone is truly GOOD with this, then it shouldn't be.
> 
> ...


I have no quarrel with the advice, as I thought I made clear; it may very well be fine advice. It's the double standard that I was commenting on.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

TomCat11 said:


> She never has time. However, we went out last weekend and it was awesome. Still, afterwards.....no sex. She said she was too tired.


Her PhD is a red herring. Wrong focus, so you won't come to the right answer down this rabbit hole. Doesn't matter that you helped support her while she got it. Past is past. I have a doctorate; I'm an executive that was recruited out of academe, so I understand university and industry environments extremely well.

This is a respect issue. She doesn't have it for you. This is your core problem, everything else is a symptom. Don't get sidetracked by the PhD.

My husband doesn't have a doctorate. He is a CEO level executive for a global firm. Our schedules are insane by most people's standards. Yet, we spend quite a lot of time together and have tremendous respect for each other.

Even the busiest person makes time for what matters. Obama manages to fit his family in his schedule. You want to give this some serious thought.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Could you be plunging into the future in the wrong direction ?

The past is the future unless we change it. A computer nerd would say GIGO - garbage in garbage out. Or doing the samething over and over is the definition of insanity.

What are both you and her's childhood issues?


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