# Need a Lady's perspective - Mature, Married, Opposite Sex, Best Friends??



## TGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Anyone who has any experience that can help me may save my sanity, please! Preferably I would like the opinion of any woman who has had a EA or at least can identify with this situation. No offense, but a random opinion from someone who has never been there is just no help.

Completely innocently and quite by surprise we became friends when I meet her about a year ago while team members of a community invovement ordeal. We are mid-forties and late thirties respectively. 

As 'work associates' we got to know each other as we spent time together. I had absolutely zero inclination or expectation of anything other than the normal acqaintancy and pleasantries. We gravitated toward each other. Her relationship with other male team members was status quo. We had occasion to talk about related 'business' during the day. Which gave way to talking for no reason at all, whatsoever. Daily. Predictable set times that coincide with daily routine and other unexpected times as opportunity allowed. 

We started arriving early and staying late. She had other volunteer obligations she would be overwhelmed with, and I would come to the rescue in any way possible, at every opportunity. And talking daily became talking 3 - 4 times daily. Then more. Much more. As often and as frequently as opportunity presented. See, her husband would frown on that, we are certain. 

As time went on we became closer. She has become more than just my best friend. I fell for her head over heels. She is a very distinct and very much wanted part of my life. We talk more than she talks to her life long friends. I know things before her sister does. I know things her husband don't. We talk about everything and do it sometimes 7 - 12 times a day.

We have talked frankly about how if things were different, if we were able to, that we would be interested in each other romantically. That we would both be mutually interested in exploring us and see where that goes. We even had a silly incident where I acted like a stupid immature school boy and had to apologize. I let her know she meant the world to me and that I could not loose my best friend. 

She has never, ever, had any loyalty/trust/affair history to my knowledge. I honestly do not see her ever going that route. I'd bet anything she would never do anything to bring that discgrace on her, or her child. Never chance it. Never. 

Because her husband's schedule is so eratic I do not call her. She calls me. If I were to call her, he would accuse us of having an affair. I have never laid one inappropriate finger on her. So she calls me when she can/wants. We both make suggestions and see each other when we can. And it is what it is. 

Only I'm not sure what that is. So. Am I dumb for not getting it or is it wishfull thinking?? I know I am definitely in an emotional relationship. But is she?? Or is it impossible to tell? Maybe she is, maybe she isn't. Maybe she just likes having someone to talk to. Someone to remind her to do this and call about that. Maybe she likes the compliments, the playfulness and being told she is pretty, and being truly truly appreciated from the safe confines of her friend. Maybe she is attracted to the way I treat her like I want her because her husband does not treat her like he is trying to win her. Maybe I'm just the dummy that gives her all the things he doesn't and she can have a clean concious since we are only friends. Maybe she really does not look at me or want me as anything more than a friend. Or maybe she thinks about me and wants to talk to me and be with me just like I do her. Maybe this is all there is and all there can be at this current place in time without being adulterous. 


If you think the answer is "who knows" it could go either way tell me.

If you think I'm being naive and she is every much in an emotional relationship as I am, like I sometimes believe, tell me.

If you think she is using me as the missing part of her marriage to complete her and hoping she cares for me too, is just being stupid, tell me.


I need to figure out if this is worth waiting for or if I'm setting myself up for heartache.

Sorry so long, but thank you in advance to any who respond.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

This is probably not the advice you want to hear but if you truly care for her you should break off your relationship with her. She needs to dedicate her time to her husband. Her emotional intimacy with you allows her not to have to be emotionally intimate with her husband. 

It's something along the line "if you love something set it free...if it comes back it's yours...if it doesn't it never was". You need to set her free. 

Sorry.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Not a lady. Been in an EA. Right now you are a predator trying to steal another mans wife. 

Let her go. Let her go because it is the right thing to do. 

But if your character is not strong enough just to do the right thing then consider that when her husband finds out you may find he decides to handle you in a harsh manner.


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## JosieG (Sep 15, 2012)

Hello TGuy, I'm not sure I am in a great position to give you advice, however as a (married) woman who is struggling to deal with (my own) EA, all I can say is that I really understand and sympathise with the way you feel...the conflict, the uncertainty, the emotional rollercoaster and the guilt. Also I now understand how an EA can knock you off your feet so totally unexpectedly before you even know what one is. I am in a situation where I can feel my EA cooling off, and the cooling off is coming from his side (he is single, but has become involved a real-life relationship that has recently become more serious). I keep thinking that I will be able to move on much more easily without him if I at least *know* that he had romantic feelings for me. No such feelings have ever been declared on either side, but I always sensed a mutual underlying attraction and a sexual charge within the messages we exchanged. We did both acknowledge the deep emotional connection we shared with one another. Now he appears to be pulling back, I just feel I need that validation of *knowing* that his feelings for me were as strong, and were of the same nature, as mine were (still are, for the time being) for him. Which I know is probably foolish and selfish of me. Anyhow, sorry to go on, but I really do understand your pain and frustration, and I hope you can find a closure for this situtation that will cause the minimum of pain and heartache for all involved.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

You say that the two of you have spoken frankly about the "what ifs" - if you were both single, you'd both be open to trying for a romantic relationship. And you admit to knowing more about her than her husband, sister or best friends. 

The two of you are already deeply engaged in an affair. And yes, she's using your relationship to fill in for the missing bits of her marriage. And yes, she's enjoying the ego-boosting admiration, conversation, affection, and all the little perks of your relationship. And yes, she's probably kinda getting off on the secrecy of it all, the thrill of the forbidden. It's an affair - with all the standard affair-fog goodies, justifications, motivations. And consequences.


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## TGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Rowan, thank you for sticking to the original spirit of the post and actually answering the question(s). I never considered those two aspects could be mutual and not exclusive. I guess what I was really trying to figure out is if these tendencies could be construed as real feelings or a plecebo crutch. You seem to think more so the later than the former.

Henceforth, why I asked for a female perspective. It will be a little closer to the mark than a testosterone induced opinion. 

To those addressing the husband's side - not part of the debate. That is an entirely different aspect that I do not want to engage. It's between the two of them. I am just not prepared to try and debate every layer of the onion. 

To be clear I only wish to address the singular lone aspect that I am simply trying to determine if my married best friend is only my best friend or if we are too close to deny mutual romantic attraction. Selfish, and self serving as it is, I just want to know if this feeling is mutual. More importantly if it is real.


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## chumplady (Jul 27, 2012)

> She has never, ever, had any loyalty/trust/affair history to my knowledge. I honestly do not see her ever going that route.


Dude, seriously? Yeah, she is having an emotional affair with you and YES you see her going that route -- in fact, face it, you fervently hope it WILL go that route. You just want us to tell you that -- boy howdy! she's interested in you! That's why she calls and confides to you! 

Instead, I think you're hearing what you don't want to hear -- this is icky and wrong. 

Grown ups don't invest lots of time in each other with romantic what ifs, and gee my husband doesn't understand me, and boy, you are sooo pretty -- unless they want to f*ck each other. So, stay with this course, and yeah, it will turn physical (and that's what you want, right?)

Either EA or PA, she's calling you for narcissistic supply, or what I call ego kibbles Ego Kibbles

You're of USE to her. You stroke her ego. She wants all the stroking of a relationship without any of the messy real life sh*t. You like that too. You're both living in affair land. 

Look, maybe her husband is a jerk and doesn't understand her, blah blah blah. IF that is true, it still doesn't make it right, and it still doens't make her any less of an as*hole. Or you. She should end it honestly. 

Quit feeding her ego kibbles. And END this. It's not good for you. And if you care about her, you won't be party to ending her marriage.


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## TGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Josie - I think you may be able to help more than you know. Can we try to find the formula that lead to your EA? 

Are you in a contented if not 'happy' marriage? That is the big question to start with.

Do you initiate and engage him?

What is it about your relationship with him that is so stimulating? You you think it's just the exitement of something new? Or is it truly a case of making a connection with someone not your spouse? I assume this EA started as friendship?

Just give me your knee jerk. And thanks.


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## chumplady (Jul 27, 2012)

> To those addressing the husband's side - not part of the debate. That is an entirely different aspect that I do not want to engage. It's between the two of them. I am just not prepared to try and debate every layer of the onion.


How convenient. Yeah, let's forget about the husband. That's a real complicating factor, the really important thing is does she LIKE ME TOO! Do you see how EIGHTH GRADE this is?! 




> To be clear I only wish to address the singular lone aspect that I am simply trying to determine if my married best friend is only my best friend or if we are too close to deny mutual romantic attraction. Selfish, and self serving as it is, I just want to know if this feeling is mutual. More importantly if it is real.


Is it real? No it's not real. It's ego kibbles. Real is mortgages and baby vomit and income tax. Real is being there when your inlaws die. Real is raising children together. 

Get over your star-crossed luv-ah self. What you're doing is WRONG. It's unfair to YOUR spouse and unfair to HER spouse. They are not "layers of an onion" -- they are REAL people you are HURTING. You are investing all this time and energy in your 'best friend" -- this is time and energy you are not investing in your marriages. 

You want to be real about that? And explore your attraction? (vomit) Get divorced. Let her get divorced. 

Oh, hey... not as much fun? Real buzz kill? Then you're both cake eaters -- all the security of marriage, with all the fun and hijinks of cheating. 

Find your moral compass. END IT.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

TGuy said:


> If you think I'm being naive and she is every much in an emotional relationship as I am, like I sometimes believe, tell me.
> 
> If you think she is using me as the missing part of her marriage to complete her and hoping she cares for me too, is just being stupid, tell me.
> 
> I need to figure out if this is worth waiting for or if I'm setting myself up for heartache.


I think it's all of these things. They are not mutually exclusive.

She IS in an emotional affair with you, she IS using you as an escape from her marriage (which also enables her to STAY in the marriage), she IS being stupid (as are you), and you ARE setting yourself up for heartache.


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## TGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

chumplady said:


> Look, maybe her husband is a jerk and doesn't understand her, blah blah blah. IF that is true, it still doesn't make it right, and it still doens't make her any less of an as*hole. Or you. She should end it honestly.
> 
> Quit feeding her ego kibbles. And END this. It's not good for you. And if you care about her, you won't be party to ending her marriage.



Interestingly hostile reply. And I will give you credit on most of it. But I have two things. I don't want it to go that route. Not interested in having a physical affair with a married woman. Attracted to her I will not deny and pursue it I would when the circumstances allow. Sorry to disappoint but no, that is not what I hope will happen.

So what's wrong with feeding her emotionally? Why does she need to take an emotionally dead relationship and stick with it to the end? The guy has had 20 years to play his part and in the end he has either made and kept his wife happy or he has wiffed so bad she is interested in someone else. Why does she have to settle for that? Why does she not have the right to pusue happiness where she may find it? None of us have a crystal ball. Few of us are capable finding THE life partner by the ripe old age of 24 after having been in maybe 3 or 4 meaningful relationships. But our social fabric says you find someone and have a kid by 25 or your immature and irresponcible. 20 years later is it hardly surprising that maybe you did not meet the right person and make the right choice? And now you are an a*****e for it? Not sure I buy that. Got the divorce stats to prove it. And of the thousands of papers filed on Monday, or the day after or any day before or since, I will have been directly related to exactly zero. 

I know in the self preservation of my self esteem it is natural to deflect being an a*****e, but honestly, let's face that I care deeply for a woman who is my best friend. I'm not trying to drive a wedge. I'm big enough to accept what I should take responcibility for but I have not DONE anything. And I see no grounds for ending my friendship just because those two turn out to be less compatible for a life long commitment than they thought a long time ago when they both had a lot of growing and living yet to do.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

TGuy said:


> If you think she is using me as the missing part of her marriage to complete her and hoping she cares for me too, is just being stupid, tell me.


Yes, this.

How very astute of you!


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

TGuy said:


> Interestingly hostile reply. And I will give you credit on most of it. But I have two things. I don't want it to go that route. Not interested in having a physical affair with a married woman. Attracted to her I will not deny and pursue it I would when the circumstances allow. Sorry to disappoint but no, that is not what I hope will happen.
> 
> So what's wrong with feeding her emotionally? Why does she need to take an emotionally dead relationship and stick with it to the end? The guy has had 20 years to play his part and in the end he has either made and kept his wife happy or he has wiffed so bad she is interested in someone else. Why does she have to settle for that? Why does she not have the right to pusue happiness where she may find it? None of us have a crystal ball. Few of us are capable finding THE life partner by the ripe old age of 24 after having been in maybe 3 or 4 meaningful relationships. But our social fabric says you find someone and have a kid by 25 or your immature and irresponcible. 20 years later is it hardly surprising that maybe you did not meet the right person and make the right choice? And now you are an a*****e for it? Not sure I buy that. Got the divorce stats to prove it. And of the thousands of papers filed on Monday, or the day after or any day before or since, I will have been directly related to exactly zero.
> 
> I know in the self preservation of my self esteem it is natural to deflect being an a*****e, but honestly, let's face that I care deeply for a woman who is my best friend. I'm not trying to drive a wedge. I'm big enough to accept what I should take responcibility for but I have not DONE anything. And I see no grounds for ending my friendship just because those two turn out to be less compatible for a life long commitment than they thought a long time ago when they both had a lot of growing and living yet to do.


How altruistic of you. I didn't realize part of your role in life was to go around helping lonely married women. 

You're in an EA. An EA is one part of the continuum that leads to a PA or physical affair. Affairs start in the mind. 

People only have a finite amount of energy and time each day to devote to their personal relationships. You're taking valuable time and energy that would/should otherwise go to the husband away from him. Stop trying to minimize the wedge that you're driving between this couple. 

I don't know what you want from this board. 

You'll end up breaking up someone's marriage or you may be dumped by her as soon as she realizes despite the husband's problems, he is the love of her life. You'd be surprised what the wayward spouse's do when the truth comes out. She'll minimize whatever relationship she had with you .." Oh honey he didn't mean anything to me....I felt sorry for him and got carried away with the conversations.. you're my everything."

If you really think she is your true life partner, why not have the guts to go up to her husband and say that instead of all these secret talks. She has to call you. You can't call her. That's junior high stuff. I say if you think she's your "soul mate" have the balls to tell the husband then let the chips fall where they may. I think you won't do it because 1) you lack the courage and 2) you know on some level, she will drop you when she has to choose between the two of you.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

TGuy said:


> Rowan, thank you for sticking to the original spirit of the post and actually answering the question(s). I never considered those two aspects could be mutual and not exclusive. I guess what I was really trying to figure out is if these tendencies could be construed as real feelings or a plecebo crutch. You seem to think more so the later than the former.
> 
> Henceforth, why I asked for a female perspective. It will be a little closer to the mark than a testosterone induced opinion.
> 
> ...


You've said more than once in your original post that the husband would object if he knew the true nature and connection between you and this woman. Surely you realize that's because you're an interloper. You can't ignore that he is her husband. You may not want to dig deep and look at how hurt he'll feel. Obviously you don't want to look at that, but if you both are doing something he would object to, why do you wonder if this is some innocent friendship. 

Why do you care if the feelings are mutual? It doesn't matter. She's taken. She's another man's wife. She's not available to you. End the conversations and find a SINGLE woman with whom you can have a relationship that doesn't have to be hidden.


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## TGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Coffee Amore said:


> How altruistic of you. I didn't realize part of your role in life was to go around helping lonely married women.
> 
> You're in an EA. An EA is one part of the continuum that leads to a PA or physical affair. Affairs start in the mind.
> 
> ...


Nothing to see here, just keep walking. Another bored individual who had the point in question 747 right over their head. 

I asked for an opinion from someone who has been there. Or have you engaged in such frivolity? Have experience in minimizing the individual you mislead to satisfy your own needy self desires? If yes, you are a piece of work. If no, then why bother me with your useless two cents?

For those of you not paying attention the question remains: do women really have the power of being platonic friends with a male and being close on this level??? 

Please, no more assumptions I want to break up a marriage. I'm good with my best friend and I just like we are until or unless her relationship status changes. I have neither the time, resources, nor inclination for a physical affair, thank you.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

I know of what I speak, but I'm not going to bother to give it to you because you're so dismissive and frankly quite arrogant in your posts. 

You'll do as you wish regardless of what others say. 

I'm out. I have better things to do with my time.


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## chumplady (Jul 27, 2012)

> So what's wrong with feeding her emotionally?


Answer: Because you're taking time and energy away from her marriage. Because she's taken. Because you should have better things to do with your time. Because she is USING you.

Healthy relationships are based on reciprocity. 

You've got a KISA thing (knight in shining armor) going. You want to "save" her from her boring, horrible husband and be there waiting in the wings should she dump him. (Or that's what you tell yourself.) It's all SECRET. It's all ONE SIDED. She has to call you on the SLY. You're her dirty little secret. Is she inviting you to hang with her and the hubby? Her neighborhood cook out? Are you watching her pets? Picking her up at the airport? In short, do you do ANYTHING BFFs do?

Nah, didn't think so. You stroke her ego and tell her she's pretty. She "needs" you. That's what you get.

And for all those ego kibbles you're feeding her -- dude, you still dont' even know if she LIKES you, or you're getting PLAYED. That was your original question. You just don't like the answers.



> Why does she need to take an emotionally dead relationship and stick with it to the end?


Why indeed? I wonder why she's sticking with it. Maybe he holds a gun to her head. 

Or maybe she likes CAKE.



> The guy has had 20 years to play his part and in the end he has either made and kept his wife happy or he has wiffed so bad she is interested in someone else. Why does she have to settle for that? Why does she not have the right to pusue happiness where she may find it?


Because she made a commitment to him. She's MARRIED. If she isn't happy, fine! She should stop being gutless and end it, if that's true. If she's not going to work on her marriage and wants to disrespect her husband by complaining to you, yeah, she should divorce and "pursue happiness." (Which rarely works out for cheaters, btw). 



> None of us have a crystal ball. Few of us are capable finding THE life partner by the ripe old age of 24 after having been in maybe 3 or 4 meaningful relationships. But our social fabric says you find someone and have a kid by 25 or your immature and irresponcible. 20 years later is it hardly surprising that maybe you did not meet the right person and make the right choice? And now you are an a*****e for it?


Yeah, you are an as*hole if you cheat on your spouse and don't end things honestly. You are setting up a false equivalency -- you didn't find the Right Person ergo getting needs met outside the marriage is Okay. 

So you think YOU are the ONE? Is that what she tells you to get her ego stroked? Because her ACTIONS do not say you are the one. Her ACTIONS show her to be living with her husband. And NOT ending it. 



> Not sure I buy that.


Of course you don't buy it. You want to think you're "above" all this cheating stuff. You are the special exception and it's all very, very complicated. 



> Got the divorce stats to prove it. And of the thousands of papers filed on Monday, or the day after or any day before or since, I will have been directly related to exactly zero.


You know whose divorce stats you don't have? Your BFF. She apparently is quite content to stay married and use you. And you appear to be quite happy with that. Except that you post on internet forums about your insecurities if she really cares for you.

What is it here that you want? 

Aren't you married yourself? What does your wife think about your best friend?


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## TGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Coffee Amore said:


> I know of what I speak, but I'm not going to bother to give it to you because you're so dismissive and frankly quite arrogant in your posts.
> 
> You'll do as you wish regardless of what others say.
> 
> I'm out. I have better things to do with my time.


#1) I did not see your second post. There is something there I can use.

#2) Let me exten the olive branch. I have been the targeted bad guy by so many I'm getting defensive. Takes two to develope a relationship of any kind. Why am I the bad guy? B/C I am a male? Not fair. 

#3) If you know of what you speak then just say that and give me a dose of reality. 

I just want to understand. That's all. That inately does not ramp this up to a final conclussion everyone is jumping to. I just wonder if I am in this alone. If you've been here you know how painful it is.

Any friendly advise is appreciated. PS - I get arrogant all the time. I think curt is mistaken when you don't hear tone.

Honestly not here to argue. Would love to gain perspective and quit wresteling with this.


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## TGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

chumplady, I thought you tired of beating up on me.

You are very intuitive about much. I think you probably get paid to psychoanalize people and you stalk these forums to exercise your superior talents on the unwhitting.

I have alot of answers, but it's all for naught really. I can explain most of this. But I really don't want to explain. You know what I want to hear but you are wrong in that I am not willing to hear the truth.

Can you give me you final abbreviated answer? I'm being played, right. Long shot at best. Yeah. Me thinks so too. I do respect her tremendously. I don't think she is doing it to purposefully decieve me, on the contrary she has done little other than the time investment. Yeah. I did want validation because I'm crazy about her.

I'm not ending my friendship. Take that off the table. But any advise on how I reprogram myself into keeping this friendship in that context only and quit being so horribly smitten? Of course I will cease and desist on many of the things I do. Those 'kibbles' you talk about. But I can promise you even without - she will not go away.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

TGuy said:


> I'm not ending my friendship. Take that off the table. But any advise on how I reprogram myself into keeping this friendship in that context only and quit being so horribly smitten?


You are fooling yourself if you think that is possible. You can't keep fueling the fire (by seeing her, talking with her, thinking/fantasizing about her) and expect it to die down.

The only thing you can do is to stop seeing her.

The longer you stay mired in her drama, the longer it will be before you find someone you can really be with as a man (not the marital crutch that you currently are to her).


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

Hi TGuy. You are looking for a female who has been in your friend's position? Well that's me. You can go to the Coping with Infidelity section and see my thread "I'm a wife in an emotional affair."

I am not far removed from my affair and my "friend." It started the same way, just talking and getting closer. We definitely didn't start the friendship thinking about how we wanted to be together. Om fed my ego. He told me I was funny and smart. We like the same music and movies and books. We are both very emotional, social people whereas my husband has his friends and his hobbies and no time for anything else. Eventually, he was telling me how beautiful and sweet and loving I am and how lucky my husband is. 

After being shut out by my husband, it was SO nice to have someone want to call me and email me and text me and just want to BE with me. We never even kissed. We would sit and talk for HOURS. But, we both knew that the physical stuff would happen eventually. Long story short, I realized I was heading down a very dangerous path. I'm struggling with turning myself back toward my marriage. My husband now knows. 

She is probably using you, consciously or unconsciously. You give her the things her husband doesn't. She doesn't have to have the hard conversation with her husband that she SHOULD to get what she needs. If her husband realizes the scope of your relationship, she probably will choose him and their shared history and you will be left out in the cold. 

I hope I helped. I didn't want to hurt my friend but I have. You sound a lot like him in the way you describe your "friendship." Take it from someone who is in the same situation. It is an AFFAIR.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

If you were really here friend you would not be endangering her marriage willfully as you are. You both are having an EA and you both are in a fog. The fog is what is preventing you from listening to some of the most experienced people on this forum with respect to EAs. 

You are indeed a preditor trying to figure out if she really has the hots for you. If you were really her friend and not a preditor you would put a stop to driving a wedge between her and her husband.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Woman here. Have experience in this area.

Yes, you are having an emotional affair.

If you care about her at all, stay away from her. Seriously. She is married. It's a big deal.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Oh and stop calling her a "friend."

We are all adults here and have seen this over and over again. You can't pull the wool over us. The first step is admitting what this truly is. 

And dammit, this just falls in line with that theory about opposite sex "best" friends... yeah right. It's very seldom ever the real deal.


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## chumplady (Jul 27, 2012)

> I'm being played, right.


Right.



> Long shot at best. Yeah. Me thinks so too.


Yes. And relationships that begin in affairs don't end well. Say she were to dump her H and marry you. Now there is a vacancy. She needs a hypotenuse when she gets "unhappy."



> I do respect her tremendously.


Why? Character is as character does. From where I sit she claims to be unhappily married and she's gutless to do anything about it. Either go to counseling and fix it, or quit whinging to male "friends," or up and divorce the poor sap. 



> I don't think she is doing it to purposefully decieve me, on the contrary she has done little other than the time investment. Yeah. I did want validation because I'm crazy about her.


Well, she's pretty full of purpose when she makes those phone calls. (Hasn't her husband woken up to the cell phone bill yet? Or worse, does she have a secret cell phone?) 

And time is a valuable commodity. Don't minimize the investment.



> I'm not ending my friendship. Take that off the table.


Great. So you want to know how to get over her, while simultaneously being a part of her life and taking her many phone calls, when she can fit them in between life with her HUSBAND? 

You can't. If you're not willing to go NC with her, either her H will find out and she'll throw you under the bus. Or you'll succeed in breaking up her marriage... and she'll throw you under the bus. Or your wife will find out (you're MARRIED right?), and she'll throw you under the bus.

The least likely scenario here is that you ride off into the sunset together.



> But any advise on how I reprogram myself into keeping this friendship in that context only and quit being so horribly smitten?


I don't know. Imagine her with a disfiguring disease. 



> Of course I will cease and desist on many of the things I do. Those 'kibbles' you talk about. But I can promise you even without - she will not go away.


Why would she? You're a constant, steady source of narcissistic supply. 

Enjoy your lopsided, futile, unrequited love affair. Hope the husband isn't the violently jealous sort.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

TGuy said:


> Rowan, thank you for sticking to the original spirit of the post and actually answering the question(s). I never considered those two aspects could be mutual and not exclusive. I guess what I was really trying to figure out is if these tendencies could be construed as real feelings or a plecebo crutch. You seem to think more so the later than the former.
> 
> Henceforth, why I asked for a female perspective. It will be a little closer to the mark than a testosterone induced opinion.
> 
> ...


There is no doubt you wish to limit the discussion. And in no way is the husbands perspective between just the two of them. You have been trying to interpose yourself in between them. The predator gets no free pass to poach and say that this is between his wife and him. Indeed his wife is being unfaithful to him and must deal with that relationship. However, you and her husband have a relationship right now as well. Of course you want to say that is not your problem, but it very much is. You are stealing from their marriage. This is not a legal argument I make. Not even a moral one. In a very practicial sense you walk in danger right now, only hoping to minimize and compartmentalize this. Not all husbands are passive about this stuff. Maybe you will be lucky and her husband is.

You chose this marriage site. You could have asked these same questions in a more open forum or a site designed for unfaithful people. So what you will get here is the perspective from a pro marriage point of view from many. This was your choice. So one would have to ask why you did this. Hmmmm.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

TGuy said:


> Interestingly hostile reply. And I will give you credit on most of it. But I have two things. I don't want it to go that route. Not interested in having a physical affair with a married woman. Attracted to her I will not deny and pursue it I would when the circumstances allow. Sorry to disappoint but no, that is not what I hope will happen.
> 
> So what's wrong with feeding her emotionally? Why does she need to take an emotionally dead relationship and stick with it to the end? The guy has had 20 years to play his part and in the end he has either made and kept his wife happy or he has wiffed so bad she is interested in someone else. Why does she have to settle for that? Why does she not have the right to pusue happiness where she may find it? None of us have a crystal ball. Few of us are capable finding THE life partner by the ripe old age of 24 after having been in maybe 3 or 4 meaningful relationships. But our social fabric says you find someone and have a kid by 25 or your immature and irresponcible. 20 years later is it hardly surprising that maybe you did not meet the right person and make the right choice? And now you are an a*****e for it? Not sure I buy that. Got the divorce stats to prove it. And of the thousands of papers filed on Monday, or the day after or any day before or since, I will have been directly related to exactly zero.
> 
> I know in the self preservation of my self esteem it is natural to deflect being an a*****e, but honestly, let's face that I care deeply for a woman who is my best friend. I'm not trying to drive a wedge. I'm big enough to accept what I should take responcibility for but I have not DONE anything. And I see no grounds for ending my friendship just because those two turn out to be less compatible for a life long commitment than they thought a long time ago when they both had a lot of growing and living yet to do.


Emotional cheating drains the primarty relationship. An EA is very destructive. The often are just the early phases of a PA. It is playing just the tip. It is unfaithful and that is more than enough for most people to divorce.

So you are exploring the possibiliy of the EA and feel that the two of you can keep it there. But again it is still damaging. 

So no. Stop it. But yes we know you will continue.

I actually think you are just trolling here. But indeed the person who invests 10, 20 or 30 years has the tough go. It is very easy for someone who has not invested in that relationship to fill some needs. It is easy for a predator to invest very little and steal from another relationship. You have not paid your dues.

Seriously, you do know this. You have not earned the right to do what you are doing. You have done damage. You have gotten into an EA with a married woman. You are wrong. You are just rationalizing all of this. Look married women can be easy prey for a guy like you. We know this.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

TGuy said:


> Nothing to see here, just keep walking. Another bored individual who had the point in question 747 right over their head.
> 
> I asked for an opinion from someone who has been there. Or have you engaged in such frivolity? Have experience in minimizing the individual you mislead to satisfy your own needy self desires? If yes, you are a piece of work. If no, then why bother me with your useless two cents?
> 
> ...


Indeed, but you are doing much assuming yourself.

Whether you wish to break up the marriage or not, you are. 

I even wonder if you are just not trying to demonstrate to these good folks here on TAM how a male best friend of a married woman feels.

I think you are doing this very well. As what you describe is very very common. A male best friend waits in the wings for the destruction. They may feel they are not purposely tipping the marriage to destruction but it does happen this way as the woman confides in this best friend of hers. There is a distinct conflict of interest in the relationship. This can happen both with a predator and a non predator. The predator is better at orchestrating this towards his agenda. 

His agenda may not be just to bed the woman. It may be to streal emotions from her that otherwise would have gone to her husband. Some guys get off on taking a woman from another man. But perhaps he deludes himself thinking that this is true love and eventually she will come to her senses and join with her soulmate. His agenda then is less about bedding her and more about stealing her away for himself. A romantic vision.

You may very well be a friend of this woman but at the same time you are the absolute enemy of her husband.

Is this your point? If so that comes across loud and clear.

The woman may be in denial. She may swear you are just a friend. But the brain checmicals are at work. The bonding is going on. Her capacity to reason and identify danger is diminished. If she does not have very strong boundaries, she will simply make decisions based on how she feels. The thing is that due to the brain checmicals this stuff feels just fine. It is very much chemically aided delusion.

One can have an absolutely wonderful spouse and still fall into an EA. They can fall in love with another. A fantasy.

But this best friend has been empowered with information that he can choose to use for his own selfish agenda. He can do this in subtle ways like when she is upset with her husband, which is natural in a marriage, by empathizing wih her and telling her she deserves better and he would never abuse her this way. If only he could find a woman like her he could live out his life happily, but alas he has not yet found her. If he found her he would be so appreciative he would make her happy any way he could.

< lights dim and they embrace > End Act II


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

You're taking advantage of her vulnerabilities and driving a wedge between her and her husband. You should back off and quit talking to her. When this falls apart, she will have a hell of a time coping with it -- and you'll have been complicit in the destruction and pain. Just find someone who doesn't have a husband. This won't end well if you keep the emotional affair going.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

TGuy said:


> #1) I did not see your second post. There is something there I can use.
> 
> Show interest in target -- Bait the woman to become more invested in the interaction, and then reward her efforts with Indicators of Interest.
> 
> ...


I see some good use of PUA in this post. The use of Negs earlier as well.
Ah the seduction continues. This is almost a Kino escalation. But this looks like the Mystery method.

I can only hope that you are not using this PUA on this marriage site to identify ladies who have been in an EA. Surely no man would do such a thing. Sorry. No. I apologize for even suggesting such a thing. A person who would do that though would at some point switch to PMs anyway after some form of IOI. Instigation, Isolation ... Escalation.

Of course if you were, you would know who I am ......

Now as to it takes two to tango ... well then there you have it. You are correct. You are both culpable. So why would you have someone as your best friend who would emotionally cheat on her husband. Good point. Find a better friend. The further she bonds with you the more she proves to be not worthy.

------------------

Phase I -- Attraction -- Open the set, make the target interested in you, show interest in target


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

My advice to let her go was not about morality. It was about truly caring for this woman as you claim to do. She is on a path with you that will cause her tremendous pain. Either she will remain married to this man she doesn't appear to truly love while she pines for the possibility of love with you or her husband will find out and the you know what will really hit the fan. Either way she's going to get hurt. I don't believe that's your intention but that will be the result.

If you and her are truly meant to be together give her time to sort out her relationship with her husband. Only after she's wound that up should you consider trying to be her best friend.


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## JosieG (Sep 15, 2012)

TGuy said:


> Josie - I think you may be able to help more than you know. Can we try to find the formula that lead to your EA?
> 
> Are you in a contented if not 'happy' marriage? That is the big question to start with.
> 
> ...


Sorry if this hijacks your thread somewhat TGuy, but I am happy to answer your questions if you think hearing about my experience and perception of my EA might help you to make some sense of your situation...

Firstly, I am in a happy, and contented, marriage. During our 13-year relationship we have had ups and downs as can be expected, and I *was* pretty unhappy about 2-3 years ago. Bizarrely however, this EA started at a time we had been at our happiest and most intimate for a long time (and we still are). I have never been unfaithful to my husband before, either with an EA or a PA. I didn't even know there was such a thing as an EA until I found myself in one. As perverse as this may sound in the circumstances, I do not, and never have had, any intention of leaving my husband or ending my marriage.

As for the OM, he had always been the one to initiate contact and engage during the EA, I only did once or twice in the very early days. We met online via a specific interest group and would chat on public discussion threads within that group. As we shared so many other interests, we frequently started to lead group discussions "off-topic", which irritated some of the other members, so we shifted over to private chat. It started completely innocently and then the frequency and intensity of the messages began to increase and the information exchanged became more personal. We exchanged mobile (cell phone) numbers and he would text me throughout the day. Even before this point I started to suspect that he had something of a crush on me but, as our communication was purely (and has always remained) online I didn't see how this could get out of hand and, to be honest, I found the attention, the compliments, the funny remarks and private jokes and the interest he appeared to show in my everyday life, thrilling and intoxicating. I honestly didn't think there would be any harm in just enjoying the boost to my ego while giving this guy platonic friendship, company and conversation in return. What happened next was what complicated things and started off the rollercoaster: I started to fall for him. I'm not even sure if he filled an *emotional* need that my husband does not, although many will no doubt say that by definition he did. We certainly had many interests in common that my husband doesn't share, very specific and esoteric ones, and it felt extremely stimulating to be able to discuss them with someone so similarly minded. He is also some years older than me and had a lot of interesting life experience, which made me feel all the more flattered by the interest he showed in me.

So I suppose you can sum up, in my case, that all the various scenarios touched upon in this thread apply:

I am happy in my marriage and do not intend to leave my husband (he neither knows nor suspects anything of my EA)

I became addicted to the attention and compliments given to me by the OM, to the way he made me feel about myself. And yes, I am ashamed to admit that the secrecy was thrilling too

I developed strong feelings for the OM, which I don't even know if he reciprocated. I have never told OM of my feelings and I don't intend to. Neither do I intend to ask him if he had those feelings for me, although I feel I could get "closure" more quickly if I knew he had

I am not trying to deny or minimise what I let myself get into, i.e. an affair, but I am trying to deal with it, move on and throw myself more fully back into my marriage. OM's sudden backing off is proving painful and has made me angry at times but I know this is nothing compared to the pain and anger that could have been caused to others had it continued, escalated or been revealed. In a way it also makes the situation much easier, as the EA can end without there ever having had to be an open acknowledgement between us that it *was* an EA. I also feel some relief that I'm now free (on some level at least) from the emotional tyranny that that this EA seems to have brought about.

OM and I still contribute to the same interest group through which we met and I still interact with him there, as if nothing ever happened. Although keeping up the facade is difficult, I want him to believe that I haven't been affected in the slightest by him pulling away so suddenly. 

Once again TGuy, I wish you well in dealing with your feelings and your situation, whichever way things ultimately go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

TGuy said:


> If you think she is using me as the missing part of her marriage to complete her and hoping she cares for me too, is just being stupid, tell me.


JosieG is speaking from the depths of the fog of an EA. The perception after the fog clears is very different.

Right now your EA partner cares for you because you are filling some of her needs. No one person can fill 100% of another person’s emotional needs. Affairs that include a heavy dose of emotional connection serve the purpose of meeting the unmet needs.

Keep in mind that it’s most likely that her husband is meeting most of her needs. While she is being disloyal, lying and cheating… she’s not willing to give him up. He’s most obviously meeting most of her needs. You are fun and convenient.

Look at your relationship with her. It’s purely emotional, your complements, your paying attention to her, you being at her beck and call. When her husband is off working, earning a living and doing the things that husbands do to take care of their family he cannot do all the things that you do. 

He fills her emotional up about half was or more. But you top off that glass of emotional fulfillment… so you are the whip cream on the top.. not necessary but yummy.



TGuy said:


> I need to figure out if this is worth waiting for or if I'm setting myself up for heartache. Sorry so long, but thank you in advance to any who respond.


You wonder if this is worth waiting for. So you want to break up her marriage… her children’s family.

Yes you are setting yourself up for heartaches. Even if she were go have an all-out affair with you and leave her husband… your relationship is not likely to last. Only about 3% of affairs ever move into long term relationships once one or both affair partners leave their spouse. Why is this?

Let’s go back to the glass of emotional needs. Where you, the affair partner (AP) used to top off the glass… not it’s left up to you to fill her emotional glass to the top.. that means you have to give her everything her husband did… financial support, help with the children (you can never fill this need because they are not your children), their long term love for each other, etc.

Well that was not what you signed up for. You signed up for being the AP… not for taking kids to school, paying her bills, and all the other non-so-fun things that mean so much to a spouse. 

So now that you have helped to destroy her marriage/family, she will need to go look for someone who can fill her husband’s shoes. 

You will need to start looking for someone else to whom you can just be the fun whip cream in their life. After all, dealing with step children who hate you for breaking up their family was not what you were thinking about when you were lusting for your AP.

I doubt that you will find more than one or two people here (if even that) who have had affairs who will tell you this is worth waiting for.

Some lessons in life are very expensive and hard. The toll your affair (if you continue it) will take on your, her, her husband and your innocent children is HUGE. But from what you have posted you don’t care, you just want her so you are willing to destroy everyone. Don’t say this is not your plan. You did say “I need to figure out if this is worth waiting for”. Well the only way it will happened is to destroy her marriage and family.


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## Blondi (Sep 16, 2012)

I have been in an EA, and unfortunately it's impossible to only consider one single aspect of the relationship. It's just not that black and white. In reading some of your replies it sounds like you are looking for one of us to tell you it's ok..... No one can reasonably do that because the bottom line is its wrong, we all know it and I'm sure you do too. Everyone telling you to end it is coming from a place of not wanting someone else to have to live with the regret that some feel.

To answer your original question.... As much as you think you know about her, trust that there is so much more that you don't. At the end of the day you are lighting a fire for an overlooked wife, when she gets her fulfillment from you, the relationship will end and life will go on. This is where the other avenues come in....her husband finds out and you face those repercussions, your peers find out and your reputation is ruined (or hers, or both), or maybe things end you go your separate ways and everything is great. There is no crystal ball. Best of luck to you and your friend!


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> So why would you have someone as your best friend who would emotionally cheat on her husband. Good point. Find a better friend. The further she bonds with you the more she proves to be not worthy.


Zing! The truth.


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## theone12 (Sep 16, 2012)

I have not been in an EA, but as a single woman, I have had what I thought were close male friendships. I enjoyed the flirtatious conversations I had with my male friends; they were an ego boost. Let me tell you as someone who can relate to your situation, men and women can not be best friends. That is my opinion. It all comes back to sex or romantic feelings. It would be very rare for that kind of friendship to happen. You two are not friends. You have expressed your feelings for her, and her husband doesn't know you exist. If you were best friends only, there would be no reason for him to not know about you. I am sorry, but as a woman who has had male friends boost my ego, I can honestly say that is what she is doing. You have no idea what her marriage is like or if she often creates these "friendships." You two are having an affair, and you are probably not the first for her. Stop being so available to her and look for opportunities to meet new people. If she has feelings for you, she will tell her husband and pursue you. I think you are hearing the truth from posters, but it's not what you want to hear so you keep asking the question over. I don't think you will be happy unless someone tells you something like this can work and you two will live happily ever after. Problem is, if she will have an EA with you, she will have one on you if you ever end up together.


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## 99RedBalloons (Aug 16, 2012)

You said you wanted people with x, y, z characteristics to reply only, but unfortunately this is the internet and you do not make the rules. Anyone can respond. Ignore the posts if you wish.

Your EA partner is a cake eater. She will keep you on the hook for her emotional needs, and then she has her husband at home to give her what she needs in other departments (eg sex). If her husband gets back on track in the marriage, she will have him for ALL her needs and you will be REDUNDANT. 

I'm sure it doesn't feel very nice to feel redundant.She will have no more use for you. You will be kicking yourself for ever falling for her player tactics. You are allowing this woman to use you like a tool that she has taken out of her toolbox. How many other men does she have in her toolbox? Who knows... only she knows. "oh but she would TELL me if she had other tools in her toolbox" i hear you crying. Yeah. Sure she would.

Take a look in the CWI forum. There are plenty out there where you came from. The story you're telling is one of the oldest ones in the book.So get over to coping with infidelity and take a read.... you will read the story of your life.


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## TGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> I see some good use of PUA in this post. The use of Negs earlier as well.
> Ah the seduction continues. This is almost a Kino escalation. But this looks like the Mystery method.
> 
> I can only hope that you are not using this PUA on this marriage site to identify ladies who have been in an EA. Surely no man would do such a thing. Sorry. No. I apologize for even suggesting such a thing. A person who would do that though would at some point switch to PMs anyway after some form of IOI. Instigation, Isolation ... Escalation.
> ...


I think I am out classed here. Entrop ..... I have no idea what language you are speaking. What is a PUA, "Negs", Kino, and "Mystery Method"????

Aaaand you called me a troll. The only forum I'm familiar with is college football. There a troll is a poser of one team when actually an opponent/rival.

You give a simpleton like me too much credit. I don't have time to premeditate anything, and what on earth would I do with the info after I find those prone to EA?


My only point here is I don't get what you said. So who are you? You have said some things I can 'appreciate' in a bad taste in my mouth sort of acknowleding sort of way.


My next post will speak to you and others as part of the forum.
FWIW I appreciate your effort.


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## TGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Dear Forum,

Since I checked last there have been many new post from new and reoccuring icons.

Let me say thank you. The hostility is not overly appeciated, and being labeled a predetor and interloper and having you summarily rassasinate the character of someone whose character has been to me beyond reproach has been disheartening. But so it goes with the naive when the vail is lifted.

I feel worse than I did. Why did I come here? I googled my question, found a forum that had what seemed to be sane, and intellectually respectible people whose opinions I thought I could trust, who were willing to delve into the topic. That's it. Did not really even consider the marriage counseling ads etc .... just wanted to try to get to the bottom of my delimma that has had me absolutely nerve wracked. I was in no way prepared for what I got.

See, I thought I was a decent person, and my 'friend' someone who I hold in the highest of esteem. Little did I know we were both deviants with broken moral compasses. I mean, that is the message loud and clear right? No flame intended. Honestly. (I get called arrogent way to frequently so I feel compelled to try to avoid that perception) But that does sum up what I have read.

I learned a lesson. Not sure I can absorb all that kool-aid in one sitting, but there are enough out there with the same take that I have think there is some truth there I don't want to admit. 

You think I was a (heart) broken mess before, now I'm really not in a happy place. No, I did not WANT to have someone give me what I wanted to hear. It was I, in my original post, that postulated that this could be neither platonic friendship nor real feelings. I put forth that maybe we arrived here as a by product of what I gave her and maybe this is hopeless. I was prepared for that possibility. The ugliness of it all I was not prepared for. My delimma I had in my mind morphed into something far larger, far more complicated than I fell for this woman. 

I'd like nothing more than to like me and love her. And I did. Seems like I should do neither according to the conventional wisom here. And that hole I wanted to fill to make me happy... still hurts. All in all a perfectly wretched experience.

However you people took time (considerable in some instances) to give the the dope as you know it - which is what I asked for. While I thanked you in advance, I will do so again now. That you took your time and effort was considerably gracious. 

Thank You all.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

You're welcome.

We do what we can.


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

TGuy said:


> For those of you not paying attention the question remains: do women really have the power of being platonic friends with a male and being close on this level???


Of course it's possible. But when the friendship gets to the point that she would be hiding it from her husband is problematic.

Secondly, the fact that you are even questioning if it's ok lends one to your own question as it implies that even subconsciously that the relationship is shady on it's face.....


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

TGuy said:


> For those of you not paying attention the question remains: do women really have the power of being platonic friends with a male and being close on this level???


The answer is: Yes, but it is extremely rare.

The only situation where this can happen is one where the woman finds the man physically unattractive to the point that a physical affair is out of the question, and that remains true for the duration of their acquaintance.

If two adults of opposite sexes develop a close friendship and find one another physically attractive, then in my opinion it is impossible for them to remain platonic friends. Even if they manage to avoid getting physically involved, the thoughts of that will always be there, so it will be at least an emotional affair.

I know others may have other opinions, but that is mine.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

The zombies are out.:surprise:


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

You are currently locked into an emotional affair.

Are you going to steal her yourself, knowing that the relationship will completely change and that these things you currently enjoy will disappear as you get to be on the opposite end of the relationship stick (and thus she is likely to look outside your relationship for those things again)

OR are you going to start finding time and ways to distance yourself - find yourself a conflicting schedule, get together and make friends with the husband, get busy on a few days so you can't satisfy the attention and "being there" calls and texts. Make up some excuses, talk about other people, politics, or random stuff like movies she doesn't have an interest in..... basically all the stuff that really bad dates are made of.

There's a good chance she doesn't realise she's having an affair. So she's just enjoying her life right now. If you don't want to steal her, you want to shake the husband up enough that he realises he's losing his wife and needs to, of his own accord, sort his life priorities out.

when she has her marriage and life back in order only then can you resume communication but sadly you won't have the EA but at least you'll have two valuable friends


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