# So there's this girl ...



## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Hi everyone

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I do need some advice.

For the past 3 months or so, I have been in contact and going our with this girl, we'll call her E. Said is divorced, 29 and the mother of a 5 year old little boy. 

I met her through FB a couple of years ago, she is not very active on there. But since STBXW left I have been out with her a few times. From the start, she said that in no way shape or form is she interested in a relationship. I was exactly the same. Or so I thought.

During the time that we have been catching up with each other, another guy (25) even entered the scene and we all went out together. 

I will spare the details until later, am a bir rushed and flustered. I went to her house for to play guitar and catch up (she is a singer). Her mum was there and we instantly hit it off. Her step dad was there, and she made me catch up with him so we could 'bond' as it were. He's a good guy.

There is a whole lot of back story here. So anyway, the whole day on Saturday she was all over me and hugging and cudding etc. We were drinking; she drinks fairly often. Her mum is a major alcoholic. There are a million red flags which I will share with you.

So it was dark and she insisted on taking me to her beach which is 5 minutes walk away. She had a blanket and we fooled around. 

Then we went back to her little place under her parents house. I was ready to go home.

And then she says 'Come and lie with me'. Which I did.

So we starting getting intimate again. This is where it gets bad. I gave her a wonderful back massage which I loved and she loved. Then it was on; however it was only half hearted as I had been drinking. Both of us had been drinking for hours and hours.

So next minute she is telling me to get out of her house. Just leave. She was crying. I went home. 

I was really distressed. I called her when I got home and after a heap of missed calls she rang me. She said that I had put up a facade and beaten the world's best player (or something like that). I said I didn't know what I was doing and she said I knew exactly what I was doing. I have spent all yesterday and last night feeling like I took major advantage of her and ruined a good friendship.

Red Flags. She is absolutely beautiful. Helen on Troy. Every time I was to meet her I had to fight every guy off of here. She was a stripper when she was 16 and lived with a couple of prostitutes. She showed me where she cut herself, all the scars on her arms. She always needs to be told how beautiful she is. She does not have any female friends. After the phone call she said that she was going to shower and scrub her self red raw. She said she did this after the other guy stayed overnight at her house a couple of weeks back ('oh, but nothing happened). I think she may have been raped or molested when she was younger. She is always telling me about her problems and other problems and I feel like her own psychologist. Always says she gives without expecting anything in return. Says she doesn't take her medication anymore.

She said her step dad said I was great boyfriend material and her mum loves me. On every 'date' I have tried to leave early, but she always convinces me to stay. Every time, I have tried to get her to come out for coffee, go to the movies, a picnic or something. But every time it always involves alcohol. Which I was getting away from.

I've never been told to get out of a womans house before, to just go. The poor girl was in tears.

I very sorry because I have ruined a potential great friendship. But what is extra weird is that I honestly, honestly don't find her sexually attracted to her, or anyone. I told her that, she told me the same. 

There is a lot more things here which I can't remember right now about out time together. 

What do you make of this?

My best point now, even though it is sad, it to just walk away. 

Dan


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Daniel,

Run away.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

I thought my codependency thing had gone. But I still want to have a friend in her. She is in the same situation as me.

She is beautiful, we have everything in common (I mean, everything). Strangely enough her married name is the same as my last name. And scarily, she is a spitting image of my mama when she was young.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Forever Sad said:


> I thought my codependency thing had gone. But I still want to have a friend in her. She is in the same situation as me.
> 
> She is beautiful, we have everything in common (I mean, everything). Strangely enough her married name is the same as my last name. And scarily, she is a spitting image of my mama when she was young.


This would be the worst possible person for you to pursue at this time. It would be like the relationship with your ex wife, but on steroids.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Dammit I feel sick to my stomach and my mind is clouded by this girl. I was going to (but should not now) give her an Easter Card and some yummy Easter Eggs. She is just an absolute beauty. She used to be a model. A model. God knows what type of 'pictures' were taken of her. She gives me all this info from her past. Claims to have a 'boyfriend' who lives in some sort of Indian reserve overseas where there is no electricity or internet etc. 

She also is a pagan/wiccan girl who is really into the 'Goth' scene. She said she rebelled against her 'hippy' parents by converting to Catholicsm when she was 14. 

She said her father who is dead now was 23 years older than her mother and this time when he pulled the legs of this grasshopper and threw it in her hair when she was a young girl. And still is still scared of grasshoppers. How distressing for her.

That phone call hurt. To be told that basically I was being her friend only to take advantage of her. She I had her fooled.

Does any of this sound normal. 

I just want to help her and be her friend. But as a man, well, we are men. And she did say I do have a p**** so that's all I think with.

And I guess that is right. But I am horrified at my behaviour.

I'm going to see my baby boy this weekend and my mama is coming in a couple of days and I don't need this to cloud my mind.

Have I latched on to the first girl who has truly given me attention? The problem is that she is like a Goddess. Literally. And even more dangerous is that she is very, very intelligent. 

I am complete idiot, I hate myself today and I have ruined a wonderful relationship and I can't stop thinking about her. About saving a potential friend.

Do I sound like a clingy, needy boy?

How one person can affect you. 

Hell, I almost feel the *love* word for her. God help me.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Take a step back. Regain control of yourself.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

She has sent me into quite the spin.

Head over heels.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

*Walk away Daniel. Just leave it.*

Put her out of your mind. It's all about my baby boy. 

Leave it! For sanity's sake!!!!!!


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Fate. God's way. Perhaps He shut it down now to save me from more pain in the future. 

How the hell did I end up in this situation. Her 'issues' which she told me about at the start made her very interesting. Now they make her the worst possible choice for me.

And I'd be a naive fool to think that she has told me everything about her past.

Oh yes, Red Flags since day one. Never did 'sit right' since day one. 

And what did I do? Ignore them.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: So there's this girl ...*



Forever Sad said:


> She has sent me into quite the spin.
> 
> Head over heels.


She hasn't done a thing you haven't allowed.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

And I have allowed it and again, I am a Grade A sucker. But my Lord. The foreplay. The lust.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Forever Sad said:


> And I have allowed it and again, I am a Grade A sucker. But my Lord. The foreplay. The lust.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's why the fog of an affair is so strong.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

This could work one of 2 ways. I never see her again. Or this could strengthen our friendship down the track.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

And now I understand what an affair is. Am I a cheater? The fog. I get it, I think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pbartender (Dec 6, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> Take a step back. Regain control of yourself.


:iagree:

Chillax. Take it easy. Get your Zen Dudeism back.


Pb.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Dude. Let this go. RUN AWAY.

Seriously. Not worth your energy.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Yes. But infatuation. Have to shake her off. It's just that I feel that we would have been perfect for each other.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

OMg. Stop it. Infatuation is a foggy lie.

Perfect for each other? She sounds a little psycho. Get out of the fog and see this for what it is. She has a drinking problem. She is a bit manic. Perfect for you? I doubt it.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Cant get her out of my head. She is hot/cold/hot/cold/hot/cold.

My damned problem is that strangely enough, her issues make me want her more. Or so I think. I keep checking FB on my phone to see if she has unfriended me. I deleted her cell number because it was for the best.

Why do I attract girls that have problems and issues.

Dammit dammit dammit. I had a chance and I rushed in too quickly. And so did she.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Like she said -

"We are both sad pandas"


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

My instinct says RUN. RUN and never look back.

My heart says chase. I want her. Now that I can't have her.

Like a fool I am waiting for her. Gahhhh. Now I can't think of anything else! Perfect for me. I believe that. 

2 x 4's. They are welcome right now.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Of course you want her - she is broken and you want to fix her! Then if you fix her she will be eternally grateful 

but you can't, need to fix yourself first honey

fly fly


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

I desperately want to help her. Even though she says she doesn't need to be saved. 

I was fixed. But all the attention has thrown me BIG TIME.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

You think you're fixed? Really? 
Read this thread back and come back to me on that


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

I feel like I have used her and killed all the trust she had in me.

That is really hard to say. But she wants me/doesn't want me/does/doesn't. 

Enough to do any man's head in


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

She is just so beautiful and perfect. So talented, gifted and smart. 

Oh E****, I am sorry to you.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

And AS USUAL

I take ALL the blame. All my fault.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

To be told to get out. To be told just leave. To be told I put up a facade to sleep with her. God that hurt my heart. I threw up after that. I realise I am doing the Pedelastising thing with her. But she is so sweet and just an absoulute picture of beauty.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Great.

Now I am utterly infatuated with her. Now I can't stop thinking about her.

Though, I must ask myself. How many other men does she have on the scene? I know of one, and I've met him. He is young.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

that_girl said:


> OMg. Stop it. Infatuation is a foggy lie.
> 
> Perfect for each other? She sounds a little psycho. Get out of the fog and see this for what it is. She has a drinking problem. She is a bit manic. Perfect for you? I doubt it.


That Girl - that's the problem.

She is JUST LIKE ME IN EVERY WAY.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Dude. Stop it.

My STBX is a fixer...because he's highly broken. Like whoa. I fixed myself and our dynamics changed! He isn't feeling "needed" anymore. That's sick. Mentally sick.

I suggest you work on yourself. Leave this chick alone. You are infatuated. You just want what to fix what is being reflected off of yourself. Turn the mirror and take a good look.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Forever Sad said:


> That Girl - that's the problem.
> 
> She is JUST LIKE ME IN EVERY WAY.


Then I suggest you get some help.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Drinking and manic. In every other sense of what she says, and what she does. I am literally I think/do/believe that too. 

I will be leaving her alone. I knew all too well about chasing. Back to the old NC and Going Dark.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

How someone can get in your head and not leave. With all her issues and problems. Her smile. Her hair. Her smell and shapely womanly figure. I think I must write a letter for my own edification and BURN IT


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Another scary thing. Her ex lives interstate.

Me and E were at the laptop or playing guitar or something and I'll try to explain what her son said off the cuff.

Her parents wanted her to do something or come into the shed.

I swear that I heard the little guy say 

"Mummy and Daddy are busy right now"


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Dude. Stop it.
> 
> My STBX is a fixer...because he's highly broken. Like whoa. I fixed myself and our dynamics changed! He isn't feeling "needed" anymore. That's sick. Mentally sick.
> 
> I suggest you work on yourself. Leave this chick alone. You are infatuated. You just want what to fix what is being reflected off of yourself. Turn the mirror and take a good look.


But I AM fixed. I have done what I needed to do. I don't feel clingy or needed anymore. My mental health is good. I have killed the old version of me. I am my own man now.

I just want this one girl. DAMMIT!


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Please someone punch me.

I am checking my phone for her to 'Like' my status or anything. Anything at all. ANYTHING.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Take a look at the game she is playing with you.


She invites you to a secluded beat and gets it on with you to some level.


Then later that night invites you to lay down with her. I’m sorry but a woman does not do that unless she’s inviting the man to have sex with her.


So she is setting you up so that when you respond in a normal way to her invitation, she attacks you as having betrayed her.


She’s playing a game with you. Her game is “let’s see if I can lead this guy on, taught him sexually and yet he still resists me and act like he’s my good brother (do nothing sexual)”.


From what you have said, so far everything you did with her, she was a willing participant. Then she turns on you. How can you not see this. Why are you apologizing to her? Do you realize that if later, you have sex with her and she accuses you of rape, your email can be used as evidence showing that you have been forcing yourself on her? 


If you have sex with her, she will probably bring rape charges against you. 


This is a dangerously mentally off woman.


Who cares if she is physically beautiful? As a person she’s not beautiful.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

I have been completely honest Elegirl and I thank you for your response. You are right in every way. My mama said exactly what you said, scarily word for word.

She was willing. And then not. And then willing. And then not. And then willing. And then get out of my house.

You are right. She is a dangerously mentally ill woman.

Good God in heaven the last thing I need is the police knocking on my door.

And I will think that if I consider texting/calling/facebooking.

Thanks for the perspective. And my mama said the same. I hope this does not come across as sexist and brutish of me.

For a woman to invite a man to 'lie down with her' is a definite invitation for sex.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Forever Sad said:


> I have been completely honest Elegirl and I thank you for your response. You are right in every way. My mama said exactly what you said, scarily word for word.
> 
> She was willing. And then not. And then willing. And then not. And then willing. And then get out of my house.
> 
> ...


It's not sexist or brutish. When a person, man or woman, says come lay down with me they mean sex. 

They would have to say, come lay down with me but hands off.. no sex, no kissing, nothing... it's would have to be very clear.

Did she tell you to stop at any time during the entire thing... she kicked you out?

If you were my son, my advise would be to never talk to her again. You cannot trust her. She is playing a dangerous game and you are the guy who will lose... big time... like end up in prison.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Elegirl

She was no/yes/no/yes/no/yes. She was the one instigating it all. Her exact words were:

"Come lie with me". 

I'm going to have to get a touch graphic here. She wanted me to play with her breasts. She wanted me and enjoyed me licking them and biting her nipples. She was sucking my fingers like I've never felt. Asking me how much I liked her breasts.

I wanted to go down on here but she said that she doesn't want me to see her '70's unshaven bush'.

So she then turned on her side and I briefly entered her.

That's when it all went bad.

I can never talk to her again. This is bad. She is not right.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Forever Sad said:


> Elegirl
> 
> She was no/yes/no/yes/no/yes. She was the one instigating it all. Her exact words were:
> 
> ...


She asked you to lie down, then she kept saying "yes/no".

As soon as she started that you needed to get the hey out of there. 

Maybe when she turned on her back, her intent was not for you to enter her?

Just get her out of your mind. You do not need this.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Oh God she unfriended me
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

This is not good. Not good at all. 

I'm really, really worried now. My mama just texted to say she thinks there was a lot of deception and lies. Mama is always right.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

If I was terrified of my STBXW, who I knew everything about.

Now I am petrified of this girl who I know nothing about.

How the world has changed. How people have changed. When did life and love get so difficult?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Forever Sad said:


> Oh God she unfriended me


That is a blessing.. really it is.

Why are you obsessing about this? Stop it!!! Move on with your life.

Stop looking at things like facebook. Block her so that she cannot re-friend you. She is very likley to do that as it fits the game she is playing. The rollercoaster you know.

Have you filed for divorce? You are not even divorced yet. Maybe you are not in a good place yet for getting involved with a new woman.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

I don't want to block her because secretly I hope in a few weeks time she may want to re-friend me. As a woman who knows what she is talking about EleGirl, do you think that she would add me again? Part of The Game?

This is my heart speaking.

I am not divorced until July.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Forever Sad said:


> *I don't want to block her because secretly I hope in a few weeks time she may want to re-friend me*. As a woman who knows what she is talking about EleGirl, do you think that she would add me again? Part of The Game?
> 
> This is my heart speaking.
> 
> I am not divorced until July.


Really? Nothings more attractive to a woman than a guy who's just sitting around doing nothing with his life, 'waiting' for her.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Daddio, I know. 

Now I am truly, truly scared by the opposite sex.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Forever Sad said:


> Daddio, I know.
> 
> Now I am truly, truly scared by the opposite sex.


The opposite sex has nothing to do with any of this.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

How so?

I just have to say that I WILL NOT be requesting her as a friend.

Then I will be seen to be a stalker.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

They hurt me. They scare me. They can ruin your life. 

What a mess. I felt faint when I saw that she unfriended me.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Forever Sad said:


> They hurt me. They scare me. They can ruin your life.
> 
> What a mess. I felt faint when I saw that she unfriended me.


Dude. I had a gorgeous gal help me out with my car insurance on Friday night, yesterday I decided to go back and see if she was working.

Sure enough she was, I walked right up to her and started to chat with her again, then asked her out for a drink. Told me she had a boyfriend.

You never know unless you ask, and if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. End of story.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Yes but they seem to have (well the one's I go for) secret, underlying evil. This girl E has damaged me even more. 

They will hurt you in the end. They will crush you. They rule now. 

I feel like Im going to throw up. 

I'm just praying to God that E will forget me.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

Forever Sad said:


> I don't want to block her because secretly I hope in a few weeks time she may want to re-friend me. As a woman who knows what she is talking about EleGirl, do you think that she would add me again? Part of The Game?
> 
> This is my heart speaking.
> 
> I am not divorced until July.


Sorry to be blunt but, are you 12 years old? This is not middle school. You sound so cheesy. 

There sorry  you said 2x4 welcome.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Daddio,

You just casually stroll up and ask her out?


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Thanks Mablenc.

This girl is sinister. Good God given her paganism she might put a spell on me or something.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Forever Sad said:


> Daddio,
> 
> You just casually stroll up and ask her out?


Sure did! First time for everything.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

What the hell am I doing to myself. What the hell am I doing chasing these girls. I am my own worst enemy.

I was doing so very, very well. Was 'there'. 

Now I'm terrified about the police turning up on my door/offensive messages from E's 'friends'/a spell.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Forever Sad said:


> What the hell am I doing to myself.
> 
> I was doing so very, very well. Was 'there'.
> 
> Now I'm terrified about the police turning up on my door/offensive messages from E's 'friends'/a spell.


I'm just going to say it. This is ridiculous.

*Stop **obsessing*.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Open Minded, thank you. It is ridiculous.

But given everything that has happened I view the world and people as a very, very dangerous place. A VERY dangerous place.


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## jpr (Dec 14, 2011)

you need to hold up a mental stop sign and stop your train of thought right now.

we live and learn. let it go.

You are so focused on this girl's beauty, that you are not taking notice of her insides. This girl does not sound like a good match for you.

Time to just let it go. Don't make this into a bigger deal than it has to be. These things can happen...just make wiser choices next time. 

Don't let this experience set you back.

...let it make you wiser.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

Dude, there is no spell she just knows how to mess with you. Go do something productive for yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

JPR. Im having a very difficult time. And it hurt when she unfriended me. But I guess I deserved it.

I make a big deal out of everything. Oh I have learnt one hell of a lesson from this. 

But I am sad that I could have had her, given time.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Forever Sad said:


> Open Minded, thank you. It is ridiculous.
> 
> But given everything that has happened I view the world and people as a very, very dangerous place. A VERY dangerous place.


A lot of us do. Believe me.

But that doesn't change what you need to do. Stop obsessing. Work on you.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Stop obsessing Dan.

Dont make this into a bigger deal than it is.

Things happen. For a reason.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

I am so angry at myself. I could have had her in time.

It was all going so well. Dammit. Though she did used to say on FB that she needed a 'distration' - being me.

DAMMIT! You are an IDIOT DAN. A COMPLETE IDIOT. 

I just wanted to take her for coffee, movies, a picnic - 'nice'.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Another wonderful thing that I have ruined.

Good cry coming up at lunch time I think.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

Do I have to pull apart everything wrong I see with this woman for you? I can do it if that would help, no problem. 

Dude. *RUN!*

Seriously, this woman is a classic Damsel in Distress and an even worse choice than your ex wife(no offense). The alcoholic mother with the step-dad should be enough of a clue that her childhood was pretty f*cked up. Something had to happen for her read dad to disappear and it's probably not what she's told you so far. 

The fact that she was a stripper at 16 and resorted to prostitution, I don't care what she's told you. A lot of strippers do prostitute for more drug money and end up living with other stripper/prostitutes because they like to enable each other. The fact that she was a stripper at 16, and a prostitute, and cut her wrists..... this just screams of child molestation, rape, and a mental illness. I've never known a stripper that did it without something mentally off with her. 

And dude, c'mon. She's doing what your wife did to you. The whole "Save me hero, you're my only hope", leading into "You're worthless don't ever touch men again you ass!". C'mon! This woman is going to turn on you and blame you for everything she's telling you others have done to her. It's classic damsel in distress projection. And a lot of times it's exactly what she's done in the past. I'm sure she's told you all about how her baby's daddy is an ass who abused her, but is he really? Or was that her dait-bait story to make you feel like a hero so she could slip her batsh!t crazy behind your radar and make you work for her. 

I don't know what else to say but..... You cannot rescue this woman. You cannot love her to health or have her decide to be a loving wife to you because she is doesn't want your help. You've seen that by now. This woman is basically a worse version than your wife and should be avoided, matter of fact you still need to talk with a therapist to try to find out what it is in these women you find so appealing. And I know it sounds like I'm speaking from a pedestal to tell you what not to do, but I'm not. I've been there myself and I still have to pull myself away from hot chicks with too many piercings and tattoos that give me the whole "Every man I've been with is a jerk, but (somehow) you're special!" I love it, but I'm not falling for that again!:rofl:

If you take away anything from what I've said, please let it be to *stay away from this woman and take nothing she says personal*. You've just seen behind the mask when she berated you for trying to get too close and give her a back rub or what have you, she's going to get worse as time goes on when you get a little too close and trigger her abandonment/intimacy issues. This woman doesn't need your help she needs psych meds and a padded room!:rofl:

If I were you I would check this page out and then poke around the site for about an hour. 
Gold Digger in Disguise: The Damsel in Distress | Shrink4Men


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## nosmallchoice (Mar 25, 2013)

Forgive me for not know your separation story, Dan, I am new here.


Research: *Borderline Personality Disorder*

This woman is a CLASSIC case - right down to her _ intoxicating _personality and playing the victim. The only thing that will come of this is your life destroyed. It is a downward, unhealthy spiral that will ruin you. BPD is treatable, but there is a significant number of patients that either treatment doesn't work, or they choose to stop treatment. 

YOU need to get to a therapist and fix why you are attracted to this type of woman.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

I didn't want to say BPD, but I sure as hell was thinking it.


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## geek down (May 10, 2012)

Forever Sad said:


> JPR. Im having a very difficult time. And it hurt when she unfriended me. But I guess I deserved it.
> 
> I make a big deal out of everything. Oh I have learnt one hell of a lesson from this.
> 
> But I am sad that I could have had her, given time.


happened to me recently too buddy...Old friend comes back...gives you mixed signals and then when you fall for it..its somehow your fault.

I still think about her everyday, probably always will...

But it wasn't healthy for me and this isn't healthy for you..I know it sux man..

cut ties, resolve yourself to the facts, and move on as best you can.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

geek down said:


> happened to me recently too buddy...Old friend comes back...gives you mixed signals and then when you fall for it..its somehow your fault.
> 
> I still think about her everyday, probably always will...
> 
> ...


Gives you mixed signals? Fall for it? Your fault?

Wait .. what? Things will not always be written out on a persons forehead for you to read. At times you have to listen to YOURSELF and either be okay with self preservation when you walk away or be okay with what happens if you 'take a shot at it'.

Far too much weight on decision making is being placed on what the other person says or does, rather then holding yourself accountable.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Forever Sad said:


> What the hell am I doing to myself. What the hell am I doing chasing these girls. I am my own worst enemy.
> 
> I was doing so very, very well. Was 'there'.
> 
> Now I'm terrified about the police turning up on my door/offensive messages from E's 'friends'/a spell.


The cops will most likely not be showing up to your door for this one incident. It would be her word against yours. The point is to not give her more ammunition. If she was truly a mature woman then she should have told you up front that she did not want to do anything. Or even smarter, she would have not invited you to lie down with her and none of this would have happened. 

You keep calling her a ‘girl’. She’s not a ‘girl’, she’s an adult woman. And she is playing childish games. 

Maybe this is the point that you need to learn from your short friendship with her, do not get involved with immature women. And right now you are really way too immature. As long as you are afraid of women, you will set yourself up to be in weird relationships with immature women. Maybe this is what you need to figure out. Why, besides her looks, are you attracted to her and her immature nonsense?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Forever Sad said:


> JPR. Im having a very difficult time. And it hurt when she unfriended me. But I guess I deserved it.
> 
> I make a big deal out of everything. Oh I have learnt one hell of a lesson from this.
> 
> But I am sad that I could have had her, given time.


What lesson have you learned. I think it would do you some good to write that out.

Also, you do not know that given time you coudl have had her. And seriously, would you want her given time? She sounds very unstable. The insability would have cause problems one way or another.


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## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> Gives you mixed signals? Fall for it? Your fault?
> 
> Wait .. what? Things will not always be written out on a persons forehead for you to read. At times you have to listen to YOURSELF and either be okay with self preservation when you walk away or be okay with what happens if you 'take a shot at it'.
> 
> Far too much weight on decision making is being placed on what the other person says or does, rather then holding yourself accountable.


Very good observation, however, weak-minded codependent men thrive on these dynamics. Sad but true.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

So I was thinking during lunchtime. 2 x 4's more than welcome.

So she unfriended me on FB. Is she expecting me to chase her, give it time and add her as a friend? Is that what she is doing?

No Small Choice hit the nail on the head. Intoxicating Personality.

The thing is. I'm a man. The way things were headed it was going to progress further. We went out to lunch on that day and she took my hand and said 'what a wonderful day, beautiful woman on your arm, you've got nothing to complain about'. Should I not be pursuing her, like the old days? Boys likes girl. Boy chases girl. Girl plays 'hard to get'. Boy chases again. A relationship is formed. 

And I was her sounding board for the other guy. His name is B. Kept saying she can't be friends with him because they dont have anythin in common. Doesn't find him attractive etc etc. He is a Jehovah's. She said his mother does not approve in the slightest. I actually did say on another occassion that I don't want to talk about B the whole time. This offended her a bit.


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## nosmallchoice (Mar 25, 2013)

Dan - you can't hold her to social 'norms' because her mental state is outside of them.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

EleGirl - 

Why, besides her looks, are you attracted to her and her immature nonsense? 

Because she is just like me. 

Divorced. Has a young child. Is very intelligent. Has anxiety issues and OCD. Is an extremely talented singer. Is a model. Is a web page designer (have checked, she is legit) Has got a great sense of humour (only seen it a few times). Is ambitious. Is into Tarot and spirituality (like me). I thought we could help each other with our 'issues'. 

I had great plans to take photos of her (am a photographer), do some busking and maybe some gigs (am a musician). Maybe go away for a weekend to our nearest capital. She would have gotten along well with my mama because they are both really into beauty and products and modelling etc. Before it all happened we were going to have lunch together with my mama when she visits from interstate, next week.

And thanks NSweet for your wonderful response. I read it over and over.


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## nosmallchoice (Mar 25, 2013)

You are kidding yourself in helping her. Unless you have a background in professional psych, *you are not qualified.*


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

I meant helping as being there for her, offering advice, doing what I could to help her. For her to vent. A shoulder to cry on.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Or even smarter, she would have not invited you to lie down with her and none of this would have happened.


Or even smarter than that, I should have left then and there. But I'm a man and to having a beautiful woman invite her into her bed half naked - Im embarrassed to say I couldn't help myself.


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## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

Do you tell mama ALL the details?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Forever Sad said:


> So I was thinking during lunchtime. 2 x 4's more than welcome.
> 
> So she unfriended me on FB. Is she expecting me to chase her, give it time and add her as a friend? Is that what she is doing?
> 
> ...


My take on it is that she talked so much about her ex because she had you in the 'friend' zone.. you know the kind of guy that is a friend and not a boyfriend.


Then you, thinking that she liked you as a boyfriend took it further... she liked that. But she did not want that. She does not want a boyfriend. She whats only a friend. And she's confused; ex stripper/hooker she is messed up in the head about sex.

She is like you on the surface, with the singing, etc. 

She's not like you where it counts the most.. in her heart.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Forever Sad said:


> Or even smarter than that, I should have left then and there. But I'm a man and to having a beautiful woman invite her into her bed half naked - Im embarrassed to say I couldn't help myself.


If a half naked man invited me into his bed I would assume that he wanted sex.


Now you know that in the future you need to be much clearer with women about this.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

EleGirl, this B guy came on the scene just after me. 

Hell, we even organised to have drinks a couple of weeks ago and he 'invited' himself. So, she had 2 guys pining after her.

BUT, then I was STRONG and let them dance (even though she kept asking me to), I was just being on my own enjoying the band etc etc. Then they headed to another club and she insisted that I come along. That's the night this new B guy stayed 'on her lounge'. She later said that she wished I had come that night. I said I would have liked to, but glad I didn't.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

And random comments - Dan, I do adore you, you are special to me .....


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Now you know that in the future you need to be much clearer with women about this.


DAMN STRAIGHT. I can't have this conversation or go through this again. 

How one person can get in your head. Right in that zone. Amazing, but terrible.


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## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

Terrible.....not amazing. Punch yourself in the face right now. Really hard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Forever Sad said:


> EleGirl, this B guy came on the scene just after me.
> 
> Hell, we even organised to have drinks a couple of weeks ago and he 'invited' himself. So, she had 2 guys pining after her.
> 
> BUT, then I was STRONG and let them dance (even though she kept asking me to), I was just being on my own enjoying the band etc etc. Then they headed to another club and she insisted that I come along. That's the night this new B guy stayed 'on her lounge'. She later said that she wished I had come that night. I said I would have liked to, but glad I didn't.


Since you are not her committed boyfriend it was not your place to be 'strong' and let them dance. She could dance with whomever she chose.

So even if it was not her ex she was taking about, she was talking about another guy. women do not generally discuss other guys with the person they are interested in as a mate. You are in the friend zone.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Oh Ele I wanted to dance with her. But I was taking my time. 

Yes I was in the Friend Zone. And I knew that, deep down. 

So was/is he. I was taking my sweet time in not coming on too strong, being mysterious and my own man etc etc. It was working really, really well.

That was tough to read.

But true.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Thoreau. Whats the go man.

Yes I do tell my mama everything. She the only one I have to talk to.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Forever Sad said:


> So I was thinking during lunchtime. 2 x 4's more than welcome.
> 
> So she unfriended me on FB. Is she expecting me to chase her, give it time and add her as a friend? Is that what she is doing?


When a woman ways “NO” , stop and leave. Do not keep trying to seduce her, even if she is saying yes/no over and over.

When a woman un-friends you, believe that she means to unfriend you. Stop wondering if she really meant yes when she said no. Stop wondering if unfriending you really means that she wants you to be her friend. She un-friended you for crying out loud. Leave it alone. 

I would never be half naked and invite a man to come to bed with me unless I intended to have sex with him. Why? Because I know that any normal man will take it that way. She knew darn well what she was doing. But now she’s acting like she innocently just wanted you to lay down with he r and not touch her? Get real.

Stop playing the game. The reason you are afraid of women is because you keep choosing scary women.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

And Ele - That night I am referring to. 

She didn't even want him to come. She always said that she can't say no. He invited himself. He was distancing himself over the past week just gone. 

By strong, I meant I was strong that I did not fall for her or get the dreaded J word. I was there, as my own man, doing what I wanted. I actually encouraged them to dance.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Forever Sad said:


> Oh Ele I wanted to dance with her. But I was taking my time.
> 
> Yes I was in the Friend Zone. And I knew that, deep down.
> 
> ...


You said you learned a lesson. What lesson did you learn?


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

I understand Elegirl. I understand completely.

Thankyou for your input. Hard to read, but absolutely true.

I will leave it alone.


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## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

Forever Sad said:


> Thoreau. Whats the go man.
> 
> Yes I do tell my mama everything. She the only one I have to talk to.


Thats a little weird Daniel. You told her about the nipples and the rear entry and everything?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

WTF

No. Obviously is not such graphic terms.

Jesus man.


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## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

You made it sound as if you did. No offense. 

You do realize that you need serious professional help? Consider yourself very fortunate that Elle is engaging you in conversation. Listen to her. Listen to me telling you....LISTEN to HER.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

I do consider myself very, very fortunate and I am very thankful for all of your input. I AM listening to her.

I am very sorry for harping on. I needed somewhere to turn. 

I KNOW what I NEED to do. I don't NEED a psychologist. Been there, done that. Learnt more from here and the wise words of my mother than any shrink can tell me.

So I apologise. I get it. I screwed it up, chased a crazy woman and now I pay the price. Ok?

I GET IT. I UNDERSTAND. I go after what I can't have, they are not right, I am not right. 

*I GET IT.*


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

So now I shall go home and drink many beers and sit outside, smoke cigarettes and think about what happened on the weekend and digest all of the information that you have given me, and please believe me when I say I am very, very thankful to you all.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

God Dammit.

I choose to live a life free of women. Looks like I have to for my own sanity. There is no 'angel'. There is no 'soul mate'. And I have to live with that. And I have to be ****ing well OK with it. 

**** me.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Forever Sad said:


> I understand Elegirl. I understand completely.
> 
> Thankyou for your input. Hard to read, but absolutely true.
> 
> I will leave it alone.


This time right now, until your divorce is final and maybe for a while after that is a good time to explore about yourself and to grow. 

There is a book that I think you would benefit from reading:

"Ten Stupid Things Men Do to Mess Up Their Lives" by Laura Schlessinger

She has one she wrote for women too. she makes some very good points. 

Can you get into some counseling so you can discuss things like this recent woman and why you are sucked in by this sort of emotionally messed up woman? You don't need this in your life and need to learn to protect yourself. Emotionally messed up woman are apparently attractive to you, so to protect yourself you are going to need to get to the point at which a loud alarm goes off in your head when he run into one of them. This can be learned.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Forever Sad said:


> I do consider myself very, very fortunate and I am very thankful for all of your input. I AM listening to her.
> 
> I am very sorry for harping on. I needed somewhere to turn.
> 
> ...


You know what... coming here and talking is a very healthy thing to do. It's a lot better than just acting on what is going on in your head. So keep posting here and get it all out of your system. 

Just writing it all down is very healthy and good for you. So keep that up.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Forever Sad said:


> God Dammit.
> 
> I choose to live a life free of women. Looks like I have to for my own sanity. There is no 'angel'. There is no 'soul mate'. And I have to live with that. And I have to be ****ing well OK with it.
> 
> **** me.


Boy do I sympathize with that...

You need time to heal from your marriage... 

Give yourself time...


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Stupid Things Than Men Do.

Everything in my life I have ruined. I don't need a book to tell me what I am. I have done stupid things all my life, I mess up all the time, I make the wrong decisions and **** things up every time. And I'm still doing that. I guess some people are just born screw ups and thats fine. That's me. This is not to gain sympathy or poor Dan comments. This is the God Damned truth and I am a ****ing Realist. Poor Dan nothing. Dan is a **** up of a human, and a COMPLETE **** up as a man. Who the **** cares. And what does it matter.

Everything I love leaves me every time. And they will in the fiuture. They will either walk, die or simply leave. 

Like they have since the day I was born. And I have to force myself not to give a flying ****.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

You are feeling very down right now so your poor you rant it just part of that. I feel the same way you do sometimes with failed relationships.

Not everyone has left you.. you have your mother right?

We are all alone in this life. Many times in anyone’s life, the only person we can depend on is ourselves. You are not unusual in this way. You are just like the rest of us. Have your pity party tonight. We all have those as well. But then tomorrow is a new day and your life goes on.

You really sound way to raw and vulnerable to be getting into any relationship right now. A 3 month old friendship (this was not a ‘relationship’) should not be throwing you for a loop like this. How does someone you hardly know have this much power over you? Why do you give her this power? 3 months is a drop in the bucket over your lifetime. 

Remember that the purpose of dating is to find out if a person is long term relationship material. Well you found out didn't you? You found out that she is emotionally unstable. She leads you to believe one thing and accuses you of something very close to rape. You are downright lucky that she pulled this on you now, long before you were heavily involved with her.

You do not love this woman. You might have liked her. You might have had the hots for your, but this is not love. Love is what happens after you are together with a person for a long time. It’s what you feel after the 18 month high of first meeting a person fades away. Love is the decision to stay with a person and put that person’s needs ahead of your own.

You should be counting your blessings tonight because you got away from a crazy.

And yes you would benefit from reading the book. If you did it would put a lot of this in perspective for you.

What kinds of things do you do that you enjoy? Do you have any male friends you hang out with? Maybe you need to start with getting that part of your life together.

It's my bedtime. I'll check back in the morning.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Hello and thank you EleGirl for your last post. It really opened my eyes.

You are completely and 100% correct.

I've had a few beers and a Xanax so I am pretty relaxed and 'clear' in my mind right now. 

I will run, not walk. I will RUN away from this and not look back.

It find it difficult though I am used to it, to not have any male buddies. 

I have been in this town for 3 years. I don't get out much, other than going to work, shopping and occasionally going out for lunch or catching a movie.

I'm sure that if I had a friend that I could vent to and gain a different perspective from them it will make everything much easier.

But no matter. Just look at my posts. What a scene I have made.

So tonight, I am going to 'be still' and 'knock off'.

I look forward to chatting with all of you fellow TAMMERS tomorrow.

Dan


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Glad to hear you are doing better, hope it stays that way.

The healthiest thing for you right now might be to get some male friends and get involved in some healthy activities that you enjoy. 

There is a site that I like for this. It's not a dating site. Instead people post activities and anyone can join. For example, one of the many groups in my area in one that explores the state. I live in New Mexico. They go around the state as a group to explore historic sites, etc. There are groups that meet up every couple of weeks to hike in the mountains. 

Find Meetup groups near you - Meetup

You might just find something you like on there. It's a very healthy way to meet like minded people.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Thanks EleGirl, I have joined the local Meetup but there in nothing in this immediate area, they are in our capital which is a few hours drive.

So I feel better today. The memory of this girl is fading fast. Was talking to mama and these days I have no idea of time passing, but I had only really been out with her in person about 4 or 5 times, only been communicating for aabout 6 weeks. Not 3 months. Letting go of someone after only a few weeks is far easier than letting go of a 6 year marriage and a baby taken away from me when he was 8 weeks. Wife, baby left me by myself.

So I have been thinking (as usual) that when someone comes along, you just have to enjoy the moment, because you can be absolutely sure that it is going to end, sooner or later.

I had a friend request this morning (check FB first thing) and my heart jumped because I thought it was her. It wasn't.

I don't think I can allow myself anyone in because I am tired of being hurt over and over again. 

It seems, now, that I am in the same boat hoping for R. Just like I did with STBXW. Thinking, racking my brain on how to 'make things up'. How silly of me.

R from a girl who I've only known for a few weeks.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Daniel,

You have more work to do.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Conrad

Master of the understatement


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

And yet, I was truly 'done' a couple of weeks ago. Truly happy in the situation, and then this comes along. And goes again.

You know, you'd think after 8 months of wife and baby leaving me I'd be over everything. I mean how long is this going to take. I'm 35, I can't waste my life with these feelings and day to day hell.

The best thing right now is to simply stay away from the fairer sex. 

I was chatting to a fellow TAMMER on here and they made a great point. After all we've learnt, after all the books we read and taking stock of the wonderful advice on here, when someone comes into your life that 'gets in your head' everything goes out the window. And we find ourselves devastated and reeling again.

The the best and only thing I can do is stay away. Because you let someone into your life and they hurt you. And you know they will. Oh, you can deny it and push it away and think that everything is wonderful and that they are simply perfect and how much you want to be with them. 

But that little voice in your head tells you that it is all wrong, but do you listen? No.

You see, I have this terrible problem of wanting what I can't have. 

And during my thinking sessions I was thinking about the Clock of Attractiveness. What a game. You can't come on too strong (far from), you can't be 'too' distant, you have to keep mysterious but let yourself be yourself in small doses. All the while the clock is ticking. Who the hell wants to play such a ghastly game?

All I know is I can't be hurt again otherwise I will end up in the crazy house or have a heart attack or stroke or something. And I know that it would kill me. Like I would just drop dead on the spot.

Conrad, thank you for your statement. 

But I have to be honest I get tired of working. 

And life and love is not like it was when we were young. Back when things were simple. As previously mentioned, you like someone. You chase them. You don't know the 'rules' and everything is easy. 

Like they say, I should just be 'laughing this off' and thinking 'What the hell was I doing?'


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Daniel,

Have you read Codependent No More by Melanie Beattie?

You have to quit trying to go around this and go through it. This amounts to re-wiring your internal compass.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

I own that book Conrad. I can only read a few pages at a time. I understand the concept.

I assured myself that I was NOT codependant. And I was travelling wonderfully for the last few weeks.

This game of life and relationships is just to damned difficult.

If this is what Hell is like. 

And if die tomorrow and go to Hell.

It would walk in with a smile because Hell would be a walk in the park compared to life.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Forever Sad said:


> I own that book Conrad. I can only read a few pages at a time. I understand the concept.
> 
> I assured myself that I was NOT codependant. And I was travelling wonderfully for the last few weeks.


You now have more data.

More work to do.


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## Pbartender (Dec 6, 2012)

Forever Sad said:


> So I have been thinking (as usual) that when someone comes along, you just have to enjoy the moment, because you can be absolutely sure that it is going to end, sooner or later.


_"Remember that you ought to behave in life as you would at a banquet. As something is being passed around it comes to you; stretch out your hand, take a portion of it politely. It passes on; do not detain it. Or it has not come to you yet; do not project your desire to meet it, but wait until it comes in front of you. So act toward children, so toward a wife, so toward office, so toward wealth."_ *- Epictetus*



Forever Sad said:


> The best thing right now is to simply stay away from the fairer sex.


No... That's avoidance, and only a temporary solution. It's far better to take it easy, wait until you're ready and teach yourself how to have healthy relationships with the fairer sex. You will make mistakes as you learn, and that's okay. You can start off slow, just making friends with girls, and that's okay. 

But the problems you're having with this girl will never go away, if you just hide. They will continue to be problems with every girl you want to date, until you learn new habits to replace them.



Forever Sad said:


> The the best and only thing I can do is stay away. Because you let someone into your life and they hurt you. And you know they will.


You think that now, because that what you are used to. Normal, healthy relationships will feel strange and weird to you. Trust me. I know.

The trick is to get out of the old habit and into some new ones... Learning to instinctively recognize the good relationships from the bad. Getting used to how a healthy relationship feels, so you'll be comfortable in the good ones and not the bad ones. Learning to habitually end the bad ones before they get worse.

And you can't do that by sitting at home complaining to your mother about how you always get hurt when you play the game, about how you don't know any of the rules, about how nobody plays fair, and it's no fun and I don't really want to play anyway.


Pb.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Pb. Thankyou for that. But, I must ask. Would you agree that I do raise a good point?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

And I had the tv on last night and there was talk of love. I burst out laughing. Love. There is no such thing! Oh in the movies, sure. But real life? Please. What a goddamned joke.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pbartender (Dec 6, 2012)

Forever Sad said:


> Pb. Thankyou for that. But, I must ask. Would you agree that I do raise a good point?


No, I wouldn't.

I _would_ agree that you raise a good excuse for staying exactly the way you are... miserable and alone.


Pb.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I still believe in love.

One day I hope to receive it instead of just giving it.

Before that I have to be able to give love without needing to receive anything in return.

The love of a good woman is not on my horizon but I do believe it is out there somewhere.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Pbartender said:


> No, I wouldn't.
> 
> I _would_ agree that you raise a good excuse for staying exactly the way you are... miserable and alone.
> 
> ...


Yeah thanks for that. 

Brightened up my day.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

K.C. said:


> I still believe in love.
> 
> One day I hope to receive it instead of just giving it.
> 
> ...


KC,

You and Daniel are in the same place.

The jagged outlines of the codependence are now in full view.

Time to take it out root and branch.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Look. Screw codependence. Forget about clinginess and neediness. Forget about everyone but myself. 

I do pray and hope for you KC. She is out there somewhere for you. A GOOD woman will come your way my friend. Just be super weary and very, very careful. And I mean exercise more caution that you have ever needed to in your entire life. Which I'm sure you don't need me to tell you.

I was thinking about Daddio's advice and how it could help me handle rejection, quickly. Real quickly.

And that is asking all and sundry females out, handing out numbers left and right. 90% will say no. Will hurt the first time, but after a lot more times, no more hurt.

And should they agree, take them out, and when they leave then deal with it quickly. Therefore getting myself ready.

And I am going to need to teach my son all of what I know when he is older. He needs to be protected from the world and the feelings that you get and the pain that you will go through. I will teach him to not even put himself in this position. Every last thing I have learnt over the past 8 months. I just pray that he listens. Don't fall for her baby boy, she will hurt you. Watch yourself. Come to your daddy before you do anything.


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## Pbartender (Dec 6, 2012)

Forever Sad said:


> Yeah thanks for that.
> 
> Brightened up my day.


Would you rather I bull**** you about it, so you can feel all sunshine bubbly super-fun happiness? I can, if you want. It won't improve your situation.

The point you were making in that post was, "I'm scared of getting hurt. I should give up trying." And that may be a valid _feeling_, considering what you went through, but it's by no means a good point.


Pb.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Well if you get hurt over and over and over and over. Then why the hell even go there? I mean why? That's my 'argument'.

Self preservation I guess I what I am getting at. 

And no, smash me as hard as you can. It's for the best and I thank you. 

TAM is not about sunshine super fun happiness.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Yo PB. I'm ready and I pose this question to you.

You don't know me, but from what I have posted here all over TAM.

My question is:

What do you think of me?

Hit me.


----------



## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

It isn't self preservation, it is self denial.

Love and affection is part of life. If you deny yourself that, you aren't living fully.

Doesn't mean you should go looking, that is probably the worst thing either of us could do right now. You can be open to what life brings your way though.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Daniel,

The Victim Chair does not become you.


----------



## Pbartender (Dec 6, 2012)

Forever Sad said:


> Well if you get hurt over and over and over and over. Then why the hell even go there? I mean why? That's my 'argument'.


You make the same mistake over and over again, and then wonder why you get hurt over and over again?

The solution is not to give up. The solution is to learn a new game plan.



Forever Sad said:


> What do you think of me?


Wait for it...



Conrad said:


> The Victim Chair does not become you.


:iagree:


Pb.


----------



## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Daniel,
> 
> The Victim Chair does not become you.


Quoted for truth.


----------



## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

Pbartender said:


> The solution is not to give up. The solution is to learn a new game plan.


And a new game plan entails learning to love yourself...not giving your number to every Tom, **** and Harry, in a miserable attempt to get a yes. Neediness attracts neediness, every. single. time.



Apparently, the word 'd1ck' is frowned upon in this establishment.


----------



## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Katy,

Thanks for visiting


----------



## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

Forever Sad said:


> Katy,
> 
> Thanks for visiting


I've missed you, sweetness!


----------



## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Oh no Katy. Quite the opposite. 

The game plan is to get NO time after time.

So that I don't feel a shred of hurt for any form of rejection in the future.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

HappyKaty said:


> And a new game plan entails learning to love yourself...not giving your number to every Tom, **** and Harry, in a miserable attempt to get a yes. Neediness attracts neediness, every. single. time.
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, the word 'd1ck' is frowned upon in this establishment.


From overuse.


----------



## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

And as you may have read Katy. What a situtation.


----------



## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

Forever Sad said:


> And as you may have read Katy. What a situtation.


Kinda like Sarah version 2.0, yeah?


----------



## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

The very same.

Except on steroids, high on drugs, schizophrenic, deranged and psycho.

Oh, and I ruined this one too.

Goodie.


----------



## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

Forever Sad said:


> The very same.
> 
> Except on steroids, high on drugs, schizophrenic, deranged and psycho.


There's a reason you attracted a clone of your wife, deary.


----------



## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

And that reason is I like women with problems and issues.

Because they are oftentimes the smartest, the most talented and the most lively. Never a dull moment. Keeps me on my toes. And I'll get beaten down for this, but I LIKE TO HELP PEOPLE.


----------



## Pbartender (Dec 6, 2012)

Forever Sad said:


> Oh no Katy. Quite the opposite.
> 
> The game plan is to get NO time after time.
> 
> So that I don't feel a shred of hurt for any form of rejection in the future.


From a different forum...



> I was at a college party one time at an apartment shared by several guys. They had a sign over the door on the way out that said "if you don't get shot down at least 5 times tonight you're not trying."
> 
> I bet those guys got laid a lot. *Because they turned rejection into a positive measure of effort, not a sign of failure.*



Pb.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Forever Sad said:


> And that reason is I like women with problems and issues.
> 
> Because they are oftentimes the smartest, the most talented and the most lively. Never a dull moment. Keeps me on my toes. And I'll get beaten down for this, but I LIKE TO HELP PEOPLE.


Helping them with healthy boundaries works much better.

Stephen Covey said it best: "Apologize for your weaknesses, and they are yours to own"


----------



## Pbartender (Dec 6, 2012)

Forever Sad said:


> And that reason is I like women with problems and issues.


No, it's because those are the women you feel comfortable with. If you liked them, you wouldn't be posting here, now would you?



Forever Sad said:


> Because they are oftentimes the smartest, the most talented and the most lively. Never a dull moment.


The liveliness has nothing to do with them being smart or talented.



Forever Sad said:


> And I'll get beaten down for this, but I LIKE TO HELP PEOPLE.
> 
> I like to help women with their problems.


Let me say this. *There is nothing wrong with helping people with their problems.* But...

When the help you give also comes with the price of hurting your mental, emotional and/or physical health, you need to start thinking more about helping yourself, and let them worry about their own problems.


Pb.


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

Not to mention the possibility of prison....you certainly wouldn't have to worry about opposite sex relationships there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Well I'll tell you this much. Had a Skype Session on Saturday.

STBXW looked happy. We had a laugh. Lil D is walking now. STBXW is working again. 

And if by some weird occurence, miracle or whatever you want to call it.

If STBXW opens the doors to reconciliation.

*I would say NO*


----------



## Pbartender (Dec 6, 2012)

Forever Sad said:


> The game plan is to get NO time after time.
> 
> So that I don't feel a shred of hurt for any form of rejection in the future.


This reminded me of something, but it took me a while to find it.

You should read this blog from start to finish...

Just Tell Her Project

_"Welcome to the Just Tell Her project. Here you can follow our experiences and adventures as we approach 1000 women in London during 2012 and tell them – very simply – that we like them. No games, no tricks, no chat up lines. We see a girl we like and we Just Tell Her – and see what happens."_

It's all about getting rejected over and over and over and over... but in a good way.


Pb.


----------



## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Thanks PB, I will read this when I can. That's the point I was trying to make, I think.


----------



## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

I just pray to the Good Lord in Heaven that my son does not grow up like his daddy.

Please, I beg that he takes after his mummy.

I just ask God that he has my love of music, love of nature and open mindedness. But that he doesn't have inherit the rest of his daddy's problems.


----------



## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

Forever Sad said:


> Oh no Katy. Quite the opposite.
> 
> The game plan is to get NO time after time.
> 
> So that I don't feel a shred of hurt for any form of rejection in the future.


My point is, there's no reason to search out a relationship when you're so clearly not ready. Regardless of how many no's you get, the one yes will be just like Sarah, because that's who you attract.


----------



## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

And the one yes.

Oh, I would take them out, make them feel special. Wine and dne them, sparing no expense. Be charming and gentlemanly, which I can do quite well. 

Tell them that I just want to be friends, but then give them mixed signals. Let them touch me, but then not. Get her to meet my mum, and meet her parents. Let her kiss me, but with no desire from me. Arrange a date, but then make up some lame excuse.

Then kick them to the kerb and walk away laughing my head off.

You know, like a normal guy.


----------



## jpr (Dec 14, 2011)

Daniel....I think you are making a bigger deal about this than it has to me. Self-reflection is good....sometimes ...but there comes a time when you just have to let go. 

This relationship didn't work out, and I am sure that you know deep down that it wasn't for the best. I am sure that you know deep down that this was not the match for you. 

This was not some big test to determine the measure of your self-worth....no conclusion on your life need to be made because of this.

Simplify things. Simplify your thinking. 

It was a fling...it didn't work out. 

Get those wheels in your brain moving forward....not backwards.


----------



## Pbartender (Dec 6, 2012)

Forever Sad said:


> And the one yes.
> 
> Oh, I would take them out, make them feel special. Wine and dne them, sparing no expense. Be charming and gentlemanly, which I can do quite well.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if you're trying to be jokingly sarcastic here or not, but that's not what normal guys do. That's not what normal girls do, either. 

That's the point I've been trying to make. That's the lesson you need to learn.

You joke about it, but it's what you are used to. Even though it's bad for you, it's what you are comfortable with. It's all you know, because that's the sort of person you naturally attract with your current attitude, behaviors and habits.

I know this because I've been the same way, and though I'm working to hard to change that, deep down I still am a little, and I recognize that. Go ahead and read my threads and posts... You'll see.

The vast majority of people don't act like that. That is something you need to internalize. And if someone is treating you like that, you need to be able end your relationship with them simply, quickly, respectfully and without regret.


Pb.


----------



## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

"That's not what normal guys do. That's not what normal girls do, either".

You are joking, right? If you believe this to be true then you are living under a rock. We live in 2013. Not 1950. 

This is what guys AND girls do ALL the time. 

I've seen it and heard about it time and time again.

And honestly, I would like to heap out revenge on someone the way I have been hurt. Oh no, this latest girl wasn't the first. Deary me when I was 12, the first love of my young life did this exact same thing. With my best friend no less. And the rest is history. 

Sounds cruel? Well it is. But I feel that someone has to PAY.


----------



## Pbartender (Dec 6, 2012)

Forever Sad said:


> This is what guys AND girls do ALL the time.


No. Really. They don't.

And if you think they do, maybe you need to go find some different people to hang out with. Allow me to reiterate...

You joke about it, but it's what you are used to. Even though it's bad for you, it's what you are comfortable with. It's all you know, because that's the sort of person you naturally attract with your current attitude, behaviors and habits.


Pb.


----------



## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Thanks PB. I get it. I understand entirely.

It's about time I find someone's heart to break.


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

Its quite enlightening watching a mind like this at work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender (Dec 6, 2012)

Forever Sad said:


> Thanks PB. I get it. I understand entirely.
> 
> It's about time I find someone's heart to break.
> 
> Just like mine's been broken over and over again.


:redcard:



Conrad said:


> Daniel,
> 
> The Victim Chair does not become you.



Pb.


----------



## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

What are you saying, Thor?


----------



## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: So there's this girl ...*



Forever Sad said:


> It's about time I find someone's heart to break.


Quite the childish comment, you going to steal there lunch money while you're at it too?

Grow up.


----------



## Pbartender (Dec 6, 2012)

Forever Sad said:


> What are you saying, Thor?


Karpman drama triangle
_
"... the Victim is not really as helpless as he feels, the Rescuer is not really helping, and the Persecutor does not really have a valid complaint."_


Pb.


----------



## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Look.

Right now I hate everyone and everything. So my comments are really quite hateful and vengeful. 

Just got a email from STBXW about this weekend's trip. 

Got to deal with her now. Great.

Might have no choice but to talk to her on the phone. Even better.

I was going to see if she was OK with leaving our son with us overnight on Saturday night with me and his grandmother, but I won't. Because it would ruin my babys routine and STBXW would make a massive drama. And whatever time I get with my boy has to be quality time.

I guess one lesson I can walk away with from this is that Im not scared of STBXW anymore. She is like a little meek ***** cat now. I will call the shots from here on it. She doesn't like it? Too bad. And yes, Sarah, I am taking THAT TONE WITH YOU


----------



## Pbartender (Dec 6, 2012)

Forever Sad said:


> Look.
> 
> Right now I hate everyone and everything. So my comments are really quite hateful and vengeful.


I understand what you are feeling, and why you feel that way, but stop fpr a moment. Set your anger aside (Do you really want to make me quote Yoda? I will.) for a moment. Go back to beginning of this thread and reread all the posts you've made.

You started this thread just a day and a half ago. It's already up to page 10, and in that time you've cycled through emotions so fast it's enough to make your head spin. You aren't on an emotional roller coaster, you're more like an emotional tilt-a-whirl.

Before you do anything else, you need to regain control of yourself and get out of the proverbial fog that's preventing you from hearing all the good advice you're being slapped upside the head with.


Pb.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

What's all this now? I lost track from yesterday so forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I get that FS needs some pointers to get back out there in the dating game. Is that right?

I just gotta say this is bad move on his part right now. Not enough time has passed between the psycho ex wife and the psycho fling before divorce. He needs to go through some more therapy and deal with past issues with attachment and intimacy left over from childhood. Any woman he beds and dates between now and then is going to be somewhat similar because there is something in them he finds absolutely resistable. Perhaps is the needs to be with someone who needs to be needed, I don't know. 

WhatI do know for sure is that men or women who go from an abusive relationship into the dating pool are three times as likely to pick up another bad relationship option and deal with an even worse fallout. I could point you to shrink4men.com, but I feel like I'm over promoting them a little too much. Still, there are a lot of stories there about the psycho girlfriend right after the psycho ex. 

What I would like FS to do in the mean time is to go on the famous "No woman" diet and completely swear off of women for about a year or two. Men usually go through a post divorce separation cycle anyways and this isn't a bad idea in the long run. Depending on how fast he recoveres it could be less than 6 months before he's ready or even a couple of years. 

I can't say for sure, but speaking from experience I've been dateless for about a year and it's been awesome. I'm just about ready again and I can speak about my ex wife a little bit and then pull back and say something like "I don't know you well enough" or "it's none of your business" if they try to pry for information. I sucked at first, but it was a much needed break. 

FS, if you're still dead-set on dating I could send you some ebooks and some of the best mp3s I have from Mystery and the PUA community, some underground guys, Hypnotists like Mark Cunningham (the build a better gf series), and just tons of stuff I've collected over the years. But even the best resources are not going to take away the sting and give you back an exciting life. That's why I'm telling you to deal with this now and not run into another relationship or any other distraction that may slow down your recovery time.


----------



## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Nsweet my friend,

Thankyou for you always wonderful advice. I will keep this brief, but I am most definitely going on the No Woman Diet. I am 35 so yes, a bit old but I have to stick to the Diet.

They are dangerous. As I was driving out for lunch I saw the police heading towards my work and I almost had a heart attack. 

I would greatly appreciate if you send me the resources you have, for a good read and some education for myself. 

I can't trust females at the moment. Can't trust anyone actually. Yes I no doubt sound paranoid but I do not apologise for that.

I am going to lie low, stay home, do domestic stuff and do things on my own (lunch, movies etc). You can't get hurt if you are by yourself. I don't think you guys can hurt me.

Thanks NSweet!


----------



## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

You can't trust yourself.


----------



## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

What do you mean? I don't understand.


----------



## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

You mean with chasing women?

I don't even think I want to know.


----------



## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Up and Over. It's you.

The hard talking one. I thought I recognised the harshness of the posts.


----------



## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: So there's this girl ...*



Forever Sad said:


> Up and Over. It's you.
> 
> The hard talking one. I thought I recognised the harshness of the posts.


Yes. I'm the one who forges paths of ash with a mere flicker of his wicked tongue.


----------



## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: So there's this girl ...*



Forever Sad said:


> What do you mean? I don't understand.






Forever Sad said:


> You mean with chasing women?
> 
> I don't even think I want to know.


You don't trust yourself in various ways, and blame those around you (primarily women) for making you feel as such.

Even your oath for keeping to yourself for a while is laced in the blame of others.


----------



## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

WTF. Well what the **** do you expect man?

What the **** do you expect? Blame. 

So what you are always saying it that it's everyone's fault all the time. And every single terrible thing that has happened to me since I was a baby is completely 100% my fault.

And you don't place any blame on others for bad things in your life.

What the **** man.


----------



## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

You know man. You have a way of making people feel even more terrible than they already do. 

I realise your advice is straight up but WTF man. Seriously.


----------



## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: So there's this girl ...*



Forever Sad said:


> WTF. Well what the **** do you expect man?
> 
> What the **** do you expect? Blame.
> 
> ...


What I'm telling you is to drop that which you cannot control and take control of the things you can.

Primarily. Yourself.

Intentions of those around you become clear over time, awareness within yourself enlightens the route and path best for you.

The more aware and in control of yourself you are, the better quality of people you will allow into your life.

This is not to say mistakes won't happen and you won't get hurt, but you will be better at dealing with it. Especially when you are aware of how to deal with yourself.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Forever Sad said:


> And the one yes.
> 
> Oh, I would take them out, make them feel special. Wine and dne them, sparing no expense. Be charming and gentlemanly, which I can do quite well.
> 
> ...


THis is not how a "normal guy" treats women. This is how a cad treats women.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Forever Sad said:


> "That's not what normal guys do. That's not what normal girls do, either".
> 
> You are joking, right? If you believe this to be true then you are living under a rock. We live in 2013. Not 1950.
> 
> ...


How old are you that you are still holding a grudge about something a 12 year old girl did to you years ago. 

It was not love, it was childhood infatuation. 

This girl the other day. She did not plan to hurt you. She is a flawed person who behaves like this because apparently someone seriously damageed her as a child. Any girl who is a stripper at 16 has post likely been sexually abused as a child. She's acting out from pain. The little game she plaid with you comes from her confusion as to what a normal dating relationship and love are like. She's damaged, very damaged. That's why you need to stay away from her. It's not because she's evil and planned an evil game to play with you. 

So your plan now is for you to damage someone else because you made the bad choice of going after a woman who you knew was severly emotionally damaged? Really?


----------



## Pbartender (Dec 6, 2012)

Forever Sad said:


> I realise your advice is straight up but WTF man. Seriously.


Sometimes its the only way to get a person to hear what they need to hear. Because in all honestly, FS, right now you've got your head so far up your ass, you're wearing it like a hat.

That said, after a good night's sleep, I just realized this whole thread has been triggering my fixer instincts... Time to eject.

Good Luck, FS.


Pb.


----------



## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

Pbartender said:


> That said, after a good night's sleep, I just realized this whole thread has been triggering my fixer instincts... Time to eject.
> .


Dan always triggers me (as precious as he is ). That's why I have to minimize my involvement. 

He'll get it, though.


----------



## unsure78 (Oct 17, 2011)

so much pain and anger.... hopefully after some sleep you will be able to get some perspective. listen to the others here. what you have experienced in relationships with women is not normal. Forever you need to work on yourself, even if you never date again, you need to get in a place where you are happy with yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Pbartender said:


> Sometimes its the only way to get a person to hear what they need to hear. Because in all honestly, FS, right now you've got your head so far up your ass, you're wearing it like a hat.
> 
> That said, after a good night's sleep, I just realized this whole thread has been triggering my fixer instincts... Time to eject.
> 
> ...


This is an excellent point.

One of the reasons continued participation here (promoting the faith) is important is we can observe ourselves and practice "not owning" another's response.

Healthy healthy stuff.

Good job Pb.


----------



## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Hello everyone,

Thank you for your great advice and hard hitting statements. It is waht I really needed even though it was very difficult to read and understand. 

I feel on top of the world today!

I understand completely why you choose to eject. I would too. 

So thank you again.

All is well in my house this morning.

May you all have a great day/night,

Daniel.


----------



## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

Forever Changed said:


> Nsweet my friend,
> 
> Thankyou for you always wonderful advice. I will keep this brief, but I am most definitely going on the No Woman Diet. I am 35 so yes, a bit old but I have to stick to the Diet.
> 
> ...


My crappy computer crashed a few days ago and I just bought a used one today. Sucks too! I had literally hundreds of ebooks on dating and a crap-load of videos and audio files on everything dealing with the pick up and dating. 

Let me see if I can rescue everything this week. I just bought a 1T external hard drive and I'm going to load it up with rescue software to fix computers in the future. So maybe this week, maybe not. 

If worse comes to worse I will at least give you a few new ebooks I get this week and then tell you how to stream them for yourself and give you any helpful notes I can. 

BTW, for some reason Wall-Mart (yes, that's right.) was packed with attractive ladies of all ages tonight. You'd think the really attractive ones wouldn't be there but DAMN!:rofl: Just goes to show you have chances EVERYWHERE!


----------



## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

NSweet my man.

Thank you very much. 

But I know in my heart that I can't even go there. It has only been 8 months since my STBXW left with our baby boy. You know the story.

If I go there, it will end in tragedy and I must presume that. 

Right now, I must be on my own and heal. 

I have just returned from a visit with my son and STBXW in our major city. 2 days of spending time with my baby boy with his grandmama (my mama). We had 2 whole afternoons without STBXW. He is 10 months old and walking and just about talking. I am sure that he said 'dad-daa' a few times. My mama asked STBXW if she ever talks to our boy about his daddy (me). Without hesitation, she said 'yes'. I know she doesn't. Can't do anything about that.

Mama was talking to STBXW the whole time, being super kind. Asked about MIL. STBXW broke down and explained of MIL's health issues, of which they are a few. I didn't care. Thought I didn't, but my heart softened slightly. Said MIL is in my prayers. But I don't care about MIL. 

When they left, STB PIL were there. I spent time alone with baby. Said goodbye. He knew. We had a chat.

I was cold hard and indifferent to MIL. And did not speak about myself or ask STBXW anything the whole weekend. Was focused on baby, which I don't apologise for.

So, when they left MIL tried to be kind to me. I was cold to her. She got it. She got it big time.

FIL said I was looking good, and said he will call me on the phone at some stage. I said he was looking good too, looked him up and down. Shook his hand.

So leaving my baby, I have been in tears the last few days. Grief. Can't do anything about that. Can't deny my feelings. Saying goodbye hurts to the core of my soul. 

So what I am trying to say is now I am attempting the long hard road of Emotional Detachment. I have to. I have been successful in some parts.

Just wanted to share.

Daniel


----------



## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

Great job, Dan! You did great!! And, you're right...you can't do anything about what Sarah wants or does. I am SO proud of how much you've grown! 

PS...Declan is precious!


----------



## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

New name! Woohoo!


----------



## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Katy my dear.

I have grown because I have had to.

This morning I was a complete mess. My mama is staying with me for the next few days and while I love my mama very, very much, she tends to leave me to cry alone. She is very tough on me. But she loves me. She does tell me to toughen up and get over it. Which sounds harsh but is really quite true. 

I have to have a cold heart here. I realise now that I sound like a broken record, as a you all will agree. I have to have be hard. I have been reading up on Emotional Detachment, Being a Bad Boy (for the sake of my sanity, not to attract women) and How to Not Care. 

Still got a lot of work to do. A year or so.

Dammit, I'll get there.

What I do have to do, however, is not be so damned intense. 

It is what it is. Old chestnut - Can't do anything about that.

I have to learn how to LAUGH. That is the tough one.


----------



## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

I think your mom is amazing, and is giving you invaluable advice! Listen to her, sweetie. Mama's ALWAYS know what they're talkin' about.


----------



## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Oh I do listen to her, Katy. I do.

And as for the 'Other One'. Nothing but a distant memory.

I suspect it was part of God's Plan, the way it turned out.

Very Mysterious Ways. Very.


----------



## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

Forever Changed said:


> Oh I do listen to her, Katy. I do.
> 
> And as for the 'Other One'. Nothing but a distant memory.
> 
> ...


You're right about that, and he's using YOU, Dan. Stand still and let Him do his work.

Much love, and big hugs!


----------



## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

You train yourself to think differently. It's all YOUR'S, now...not y'all's. 

The bottom line is indifference. 

Regardless of what you do (ie...sell the house), you will always associate it with Sarah until you detach and become indifferent.

Embrace your new life, sweetie. The best is yet to come.


----------



## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

By the way, where do y'all stand with a custody agreement?


----------



## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

House Sold. Furniture worked out. Finances sorted.

We took a massive monetary loss with the house. But what Sarah wants, Sarah gets. I had to do what I was told. It worked out thank God.

I can see Baby D whenever I want, however it takes weeks of planning and is hugely expensive.

If I could, I would be with him every weekend.

The one last thing is the horrible Big D.

July 2013 (earliest).

Might have to take a week off of work or something to deal with that.

One thing I do know, is that I have to get out of that house, which is coming in about 3 months time.

I hate that house. I hate the memories. I hate staring at the stars.


----------



## brokenbythis (Aug 21, 2011)

Forever Changed said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I do need some advice.
> 
> ...


RUN LIKE HELL and don't look back. Getting mixed up with a nut. If you don't run away now you'll be sorry. Mark my words.


----------



## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

Best to heal first D and realize there's just some things in life that we have no control over.Btw,I like your new username!


----------



## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Oh you've got that right my friend TBT. And thank you, I do like my new user name too.

As a faithful guy, I believe that everything we do, or don't do is God's Plan. Katy's words have really helped me today.

I shall stand still and let Him do His work.

I gain great comfort from this. Thank you Katy.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Dammit I am having major, major difficulty in actually enjoying life.

I simply can't bring myself to do anything. I love the Simpsons, comedy, I love my music, my food, I used to be really into computer games, my DJ deck and bass and I just don't have the motivation or inspiration to 'move on' and pursue what I love and what makes me happy.

I guess I feel guilty and weird when I try to enjoy these things. I was almost there until 'This Girl' came along. 

From what I can assume it's the grief holding me back.

And I suppose I just want the Divorce to be final. It really is weird to be still 'married'.

Once we were Together, and now we are Apart.

I just want it over with.


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## Odaat (Nov 21, 2012)

Anhedonia. My counselor used that to describe what I told her which sounded very similar to what you have posted.

I want to do stuff, stuff I really like and I just can't.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Oh thank you, is that a condition? I must look it up.

Sounds like you know what I am referring to.


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## Odaat (Nov 21, 2012)

I think the way it was explained to me was that it is a sub-part of depression. I thought I was doing better, and I do feel like I am, but there are things I want to do for me, that I like, that I just can't do.

She explained as a detachment from, or loss of desire to do, those things that we want to do or that make up our day to day lives.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Have you tried forcing youself to make a start on the things you like?

That in itself is really, really difficult.

I managed to do it a couple of times, and sort of enjoyed it.

But we can't live like this forever. Can we? I don't want to.

I know what I need to do is stop talking about everything (the only one I have is my mama). Keep my grief to myself, have a cry and try to move forward.

And, you'd be amazed at the power of laughter. Sometimes, just sometimes, someone says something or you see something and you laugh. You can't help but laugh as it really tickles your fancy. Because, in that moment, it is funny.


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## Odaat (Nov 21, 2012)

Yes. I've been trying recently to do more things I like. I've had some success, but it's fleeting either because of my mindset or because it becomes a way for me to procrastinate what I really need to do. (I'm in my last semester of law school and have really bad senior-itis) 

No, I know I can't keep doing this forever. For me it's getting a drink with pals or watching something funny like you say. Golf has been good too. 

Weirdly, I'm more upset about missing SuperLeague than I am about some other things. (I mention it bc I see you're from Australia. The only other place with an accent that women will put over a Southern accent.)


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

So I just tried something. Forced myself to smile. Literally forced myself. Everything seemed better. Looked at a picture of my baby boy and smiled, smiled because I love him so very much and he is so gorgeous. Looked at the picture, not with sadness, but with happiness. Yes, he is miles and miles away and I only get to see him when it is financially and logistically possible. 

But I smiled and I rememeber that instead of being sad that I can't be with him, he happy that I spent time with him.

Regarding my accent, are you saying that it is good or bad?

Because I think the Australian accent is rough and uncultured.

I think English and American accents are very alluring.


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## Odaat (Nov 21, 2012)

Just an accent, really. I have a southern accent and was in California years before I got married. The girl I was hitting on realllllly liked it and things were going really well for me. I go to the bathroom, come back out and see she's talking to another guy. No worries, b/c we had just met, but when I sat back down by her the dude had an aussie accent. She excused herself to take a phone call, although obviously interested in him. I laughed and told him that he "out-accented" me. (Not that I played up my accent to meet girls, no way.)



> But I smiled and I rememeber that instead of being sad that I can't be with him, he happy that I spent time with him.


I try this too. Even though I hate the phrase, fake it til you make it helps. I have to force smiles and I'm trying to be grateful for the time I get to spend.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Well I guess that is the answer then.

Fake it until you make it. I will try, from now, to smile. 

To force myself to smile. Think of things in my previous life that made me laugh, not take life too seriously, stop verbalising the why's/should have/could have/what if's.

Right then. Take #1.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

In that spirit then, and...

Bye Bye Birdie - Put On A Happy Face (with lyrics) - YouTube


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Yes x100.

I was talking, I think to Chopsy and FF about this recently. I force myself to look in the mirror and smile to myself, I try to make myself make eye contact, smile and say hi when out and about. 

Doesn't come naturally to me, but it is amazing the difference it can make to how I feel and then how people respond to me too.

Totally worth the effort.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Oh and I have a lame ass English accent. Hearing everyone's accent in the social spot was ace. US women from the south have HOT accents to me!


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## Odaat (Nov 21, 2012)

ForeverChanged and K.C.,

I find that really interesting that y'all consider your accents sub-par. I sort of think the same about my southern accent, but only when it gets a negative reaction from a job interview or something.

I'd always heard American accents were attractive overseas, whereas English or Australian accents are attractive here. Southern fits kind of in the middle, exotic enough for the US but not overly so.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Mines not subpar as such but its far.from the stereotypical English accent.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

zappy88200 said:


> Brother FC - Talking about accents, I have a BORAT accent
> 
> Zappy


Azamat was quite the character.


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## Odaat (Nov 21, 2012)

Hope you were able to find some time to smile today. I tried something new in talking to school pics of my sons, sort of right after my morning prayer/meditation. It helped me smile because it was them, I guess. Maybe blame it on The Cure or Weezer, I don't know.

Then, I looked up advice animals on tumblr. Some were funny, some not, but it put me in abetter frame of mind.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Hi all,

I just wanted to share this week's happenings.

I just dropped my mama of at the airport, she is heading home to interstate today.

My poor mama, I love her so much. She bought me a new vacuum, a new dinner set, new sheets and quilts, new pillows, various other wonderful house stuff, some new clothes, cooked for me, cleaned for me and made sure I was stocked up for food for the next few weeks. She took care of me. I'm trying not to burst into tears here. I hate goodbyes, and after saying goodbye to my boy last week and now mama I am a bit emotional. But mama always says that she is just a phone call away, and she is already planning to visit again to help me move. Just Dan again. 

I am forever grateful to my mama for helping me, I can't express how much. I felt so guilty when mama was buying all these wonderful things for me, but she said that she wanted too. It has helped me a lot. She paid a lot of attention to my little dog, and told me that I was always yelling at him for barking. He doesn't even bark that often. And that got me thinking that I was copying STBWX's behaviour by telling the poor little mite off about anything. He is just a little dog who barks and loves attention. STBXW was always angry with him in the end, and so was STBMIL. So I guess I carried that. I will give him more love from now on. 

But after (and during) when we were shopping I went to pieces. Why? Becuase it was exactly like when me and STBXW bought all the things for our first house, back in 2008. It was really sad. Like the 2nd Chapter of my Loser Life as a Soon to be Divorced Man. I remember how happy me and STB were buying all the things. My mama mentioned, and I had failed to notice (just adapted) that they took all the good house stuff and left me with the junk. But it matters not.

And we also looked at some flash units for me. That was fun, but sad. Everything I ever did was with Sarah. And we had fun, before the end. Just a couple of kids, trying to make it.

But what is great is that I found a Meetup Group here where I live, they were created in Dec 2012. There is 21 members, so I have joined, I just need to write about myself.

Thanks for listening.

Dan


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

And one more thing about STBXW visiting with our baby - she is very far interstate. I texted her last night to ask when I could talk to her last night about this. She rang straight away. Said they were going to someones house for dinner.

And she was angry. I just wanted her to give me a month, any month this year when she will bring baby with her. I don't think she will bring him up here this year. 

We had Skype Sessions with me and mama on Saturday and Sunday, STBXW is super nice to mama (and mama is super nice to STB - my mama is an angel).

But when I try to talk to her, she is angry and ice cold. 

Makes me sad. Very sad.

Tragically, we have a child together and she is part of my life forever. I guess Tragicall is not the right word.

But I am so sure that if we didn't have a baby, or waited for a year or so, I would not be here on TAM, today.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Sarah, 

I don't know why you are so mean to me. Is is that you just want me to pay for our baby (which I will always do) and go away forever?

I don't understand. You are away from me, which you wanted. We're getting a divorce, which you want. You live in a grand house with your parents who help you out. You have our beautiful baby boy all to yourself. You are surrounded by friends and family. You are working again, that human contact that you so wanted when baby first came along. You've got lots of money. You have beautiful furniture when you are ready to move in to your new place. You are most likely being set up, or have a new man. I hope so. You deserve it.

But I'm the father of our baby.

Should I be stopping the 180 and calling you and being friendly, just for a general chat? Are you waiting for that? Seems like we are both waiting for each other to be friendly.

I don't know. 

But I do know that I can't live for the 18 years with the attitude that you have. 

Dan


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## Odaat (Nov 21, 2012)

FC,

That's some tough stuff you're dealing with right now. I feel like writing some of the same things. Actually, I feel like that pretty much all the time. 

I think it'll get better. It can't rain all the time.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Write away my friend, write away. I am here for you.

One day, the rain will stop. I think I have still got a year or so to go.

I prayed to Angel Gabriel to guide me and help me make the right decisions.


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## Odaat (Nov 21, 2012)

To Gabriel? I'm unfamiliar with praying to him. I'm not catholic but I've always been partial to St. Jude, lost causes and all that fun stuff.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

In my horospope it said to pray to him this week for guidance.

St Jude I also pray to aswell. 

One day will won't be Sad Pandas anymore.

God will see us happy again, one day.


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## Odaat (Nov 21, 2012)

I believe so.

I stumbled across this verse in 1 Corinthians, chapter 19 I think. "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

I still pray at night that if God sees fit, to take me.

Without pain or suffering. One day He may answer my prayer.

But until then, I must soldier on and be a good father, somehow. Even when Soon To Be would laugh if I died in my bed, and who would rather that my son never see his daddy again.

Difficult times.


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## Odaat (Nov 21, 2012)

I say that prayer. I feel like I always end up saying it, or something like it, for God to take me, when I have had a good week or so and my hopes may have gone up and then come crashing back down.

I've had four point of no return moments over the last 6 or so months. Difficult times is definitely the right word. 

This helped, on some of those days. Maybe cliche, maybe too sentimental, don't know, but it helps. 

Sam's Speech from The Two Towers: There's some good in this world, Mr Frodo - YouTube


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Take it easy my friend. I know it's easy to say. Thank you for the link, I will check it out at home, at am at a work computer.

I've tried everything to be good to Soon To Be.

Friendly: She attacks and it makes her think that "I have a hidden agenda" ie, to 'win' her back. She loves to see me in pain. This approach hurts me. She still is angry.

Indifferent: She's still angry. I can't ask about my baby in this mode.

Aplha: This works for me, makes me feel good - she doesn't affect me. Still, nothing from her.

Sometimes I think I should just walk the hell away. Make her life and my life happy.

Sounds harsh doesn't it? Walk away from my baby? Thing is she doesn't care about him knowing his daddy. She'd rather not.

There is simply no compromise with Soon to Be.

Her profession is teaching, so she will always treat me like one of her little students.

So I may have to seriously think about this. Seriously.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Yes Katy

Crazy Dan rabbiting on again. Don't mind me 

And to my other TAM friends - I'm not looking for answers anymore.

Just ranting.


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## Odaat (Nov 21, 2012)

Ha, nah I didn't read it that way. Sorry if it came across like that. Was just sharing, plus I hate(d) it when I may just be feeling down and it was taken as way bigger of a deal than it really was.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Oh no dramas friend. Wasn't directed at you, the TAMMERS are well and truly used to me going crazy and raving and be irrational. Just look at the **** I write.

LOL


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Did you send that message to her or just post it here instead Dan? 

If nothing you do affects her.. forget her and do what feels right for you.


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## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

Forever Changed said:


> Sounds harsh doesn't it? Walk away from my baby? Thing is she doesn't care about him knowing his daddy. She'd rather not.


So, give her what she wants? Not a chance in hell. 

It's not all about her, and what she wants, Daniel. Stop trying to take the easy way out, and fight. like. hell. for Declan. She's pissed. WHO CARES?! Aren't you a little perturbed that she snatched your newborn and tore your world to pieces?

In the words of Conrad, "To hell with the b*tch."


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

K.C. said:


> Did you send that message to her or just post it here instead Dan?
> 
> If nothing you do affects her.. forget her and do what feels right for you.


KC my friend,

I didn't send that message. I can't communicate with her anymore.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Good man, i just wondered for a bit.

Other than getting what you can regarding your little one, she is worth zero of your time now.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

zappy88200 said:


> Brother FC - I'm visiting California (San Fransisco) for a week to see a very close brother like friend.
> 
> But I always wanted to ask you a question brother - If Declan was not born and you did not have a baby with Sarah, would you have rather moved on easily?
> 
> Zappy


Hey brother Zappy,

I would have moved on ages and ages ago if our baby wasn't born. But to have him snatched at 8 weeks and taken so far away where I couldn't see him ...

We just weren't ready to have a baby. Well, I was. But STBXW always said that's what she wanted.

But when we he was born, we were both so happy.

Then we came home, she lost the plot, in turn I lost the plot (with constant interference from MIL) and here I am.

I was going with the flow with baby boy.

She always said "I knew it would be hard, but not this hard".

Well, of course. But compared to other babies, he was a pleasure. She gave up breastfeeding within 2 months because it stressed her out and got 'too hard'. 

Anyone looking in could tell she had PND. I could tell. Dammit, I told her within the first month to go down to her parents for a couple of months so they could help. She said no. I didn't push it.

All the while I was struggling with work and my own personal issues, and with constant disrespect from the whole family (expect FIL, for the most part).

So I guess Zappy what I am trying to say is, that if we did not have Declan, we would still be together.

And that pains me to say.

But brother, hear this.

It comes down to this.

It's just wasn't meant to be.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

HappyKaty said:


> So, give her what she wants? Not a chance in hell.
> 
> It's not all about her, and what she wants, Daniel. Stop trying to take the easy way out, and fight. like. hell. for Declan. She's pissed. WHO CARES?! Aren't you a little perturbed that she snatched your newborn and tore your world to pieces?
> 
> In the words of Conrad, "To hell with the b*tch."


I hear you Katy. I really do.

Perturbed. Haven't heard it described like that before.

Devastated doesn't even come within miles.

Inconsolable doesn't even begin to scratch the surface.

I'm trying to fight.

One day, I am going to just yell, yell, yell at her. Completely lose the plot with her. That scares me.

But I think it needs to be done.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

There will come a time, one day when she will have to move out of her parents house. They are not well, and getting older.

She will have to live by herself with Declan. At least half an hour away from her mother.

I already know how that will go.

She'll lose the plot. 

In the dead of night, she will think about her choice.

Yes, it's all ok now you see. Dinners, work, friends, socialising, baby sitter on demand.

But when reality truly hits home.

Well, we will wait for that.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

All I want to do know is just sign the Goddamned papers.

Hurry up July ... hurry up.

Australia and it's 12 month rule.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Hi everyone,

I just wanted to share the recent happenings if anyone cares or would like to listen.

It is with great sadness that I am not going to able to be with my baby boy on his 1st birthday, 14th May 2013.

I have thought long and hard about this.

The reasons being (other than huge financial costs, hours of travel, work changes and moving house) are:

* Going to a party that I am not invited to (at STBXW's parents house)
* STBXW not wanting anything to do with me; or my son to have anything to do with me
* Ultimate uncomfort in being around STBXW at said party and all and sundry friends and relatives who I have deen demoised to and made out to be a monster
* This resulting in most likely a couple of hours (if that) on non-alone with my son, which due to the above circumstances will not be of quality time
* My little boy will not know, he is a baby

But I will see him on Skype on the morning of his birthday (with a party hat and all happy) and I will be buying the most beautiful presents for him to open.

Had a Skype session on Sunday. My boy is doing well.

I asked if I could call her that night to discuss a couple of things (mainly birthday). She said that she would talk about it now on Skype.

I tried to explain that her connection is terrible, volume is woeful and I find it difficult to communicate to her over Skype.

Typically, she took that tone and then I could not be bothered anymore.

This Emotional Detachment is working wonders, for my sanity.

But it is working so well that I feel disconnected from my son. My walls now are so high, so strong and so wide that no one is getting in. 

If STBXW wasn't so cold .... blah blah.

I will just go with the flow and see my son whenever I can.

She still doesn't tell him about me as his father. Nothing I can do or say to change that.

Thanks for listening.

Dan


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

And the other reasons I was thinking that I am glad to be without STBXW and PIL:

* I no longer have to walk on eggshells in my own house
* I no longer dread coming home
* I am not being disrepected in my own home
* I am not being dismissed or having my suggestions or conversation treated with disrespect
* I can walk from outside to my bedroom without having the evil eye from PIL when I had to pass them on the couch
* I can do all my domestic jobs that I used to do, without being kicked outside like a dog when PIL were visiting and being reduced to only taking the trash out
* I have nothing in common with the family and I don't like MIL
* I only like 2 or her friends, sort of
* Her two brothers treated me like a loser (one was another teacher - superiority complex, and the other a 'scientist' - too smart and a bit of an oddball
* Being able to get up and have a coffee and wake up for 5 mintes without being interrogated and made to work
* STBXW is not the girl I fell in love with and married; she is gone now.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Love the second of those posts Dan. I do worry about the situation with your boy and pray you can find a way to be in his life.

The distance and gatekeeping must be awful, my thoughts are with you and i am so glad your doing better day to day other than that.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

Forever Changed said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I just wanted to share this week's happenings.
> 
> ...


What meetup group did you join?


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Finally found one in my town, created Dec 2012.

I'll be attending a Tapas Night Wed 22nd May at this stage. I will most likely be organising my own for people to come too if they want to. It is mainly BBQ's/Dinners/Drinks etc.

There are only 21 members. We'll see what happens.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

K.C. said:


> Love the second of those posts Dan. I do worry about the situation with your boy and pray you can find a way to be in his life.
> 
> The distance and gatekeeping must be awful, my thoughts are with you and i am so glad your doing better day to day other than that.


Hi KC, thanks man.

Nothing I can do about the distance between be and my boy other than move closer eventually.

Stupidly of me I was thinking that she would come to visit with baby in the town where I am. But there is no compromise or ability to reason with her. 

All she has to do, is jump in the car, drive with PIL doing everything, free accomodation, meals etc in our capital city.

I've got to organise work (difficult times here - job security, have to be here otherwise I may have a DCM letter), pay for flights and accomodation, meals, taxi fares and accomodation for my pets. All of which costs lots and lots of money.

All of which I would do in a single second if I had the money to throw around.

But I don't.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I know it was mentioned a while back but I get forgetful. Is there no way of moving closer or are you looking into it?


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Oh there is a way of moving closer eventually. I have to work these reasons:

* I have decided on a city - interstate
* Finding a job there
* Finding a house there
* Vehicle reliabilty
* Moving all my stuff there
* Doing it all alone (fine with this, but may be difficult)
* Huge expense (I am in no way rich)

This is a 2 year plan. At this stage.

If I came across several thousand dollars tomorrow I would do it.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Good man. A plan is a plan though.

2 years would get you there early enough in his life, especially if the facetime is kept up so you don't arrive a stranger.

I just want to give you a huge manhug right now Dan, you're doing so much better now, you should be immensely proud of yourself. Back from the brink and now a man with a plan.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

KC, thanks brother.

The grief is gone now. The tears have gone. I've had to do better, to grow and to become the man I now am.

And I'm 'happy' on my own. To be living alone. Independent, because you can't trust or depend on anyone but yourself. 

Yes, I get 'lonely' sometimes, would be good to have someone to talk too, but this only lasts a couple of minutes now.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Being happy on your own doesn't have to discount being happy with someone else too. I know you have been massively burnt in this but don't cut yourself off form that possibility one day.

Being happy in yourself will make it possible to be happy with someone when the time is right. Independant also doesn't have to mean isolated so good luck with the meetups. I haven't been back to any since my first due to other plans etc but had a really good chilled time on the one I went.

Right now i think you have it spot on though, be happy being you.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Someone else. Not for a looooong time my man. The last thing I need right now, is to be taken back a million steps by someone. 

But in saying this, I've decided to join Zoosk on FB tonight. Just to see.

So I won't even go there. And the Meetup group sounds interesting, the way I look at things now is that I have nothing to lose from anything anymore. So why not.

After 35 years I realise who I am. A stronger, decisive, confident man who given the proper treatment and attention in my childhood and teens would have become this years ago.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

No rush at all.

I am similar. I am not looking for a relationship. But I am open to whatever life brings my way.

I have a new friend where there seems to be mutual attraction and i may get a nice "birthday present" from next weekend. But the only reason i feel comfortable with it is she lives 300 miles away from me and I know she isn't looking for a serious relationship any more than i am.

People that look for anything serious so soon after a long term marriage make me scratch my head tbh.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Oh cool man, sounds good. Birthday present hey? The mind wanders .... LOL

It's a positive that she lives so far away, IMO. 

We are both the same. No seriousness or relationships. 

It's all a bit too difficult at the moment, and zero reason or advantages to go through it all again.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

No IMO about it my friend. Right now I would be too scared of backsliding on some of my CD behaviours and other issues if she was close enough to see regularly.

I am so not ready for that or for either the potential rejection or deepening that would likely follow.

I also have more important things to sort. While I am blessed with the kids being close now there is a very real chance of them wanting to move to the US in a few years, i have to get my act in gear so i can apply for a visa or get in with a company that does international transfers into the US.

Genuine FWB or just casual is A-OK with me right now as, my high drive seems to be returning as i get stbx out of my system, but I don't have the time, dedication or emotional resolve for the real deal.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

K.C. said:


> No IMO about it my friend. Right now I would be too scared of backsliding on some of my CD behaviours and other issues if she was close enough to see regularly.
> 
> I am so not ready for that or for either the potential rejection or deepening that would likely follow.
> 
> ...


That's great to hear your high drive is returning. So you think it was reminders and bits of her in your mind that was making it hopeless and depressing your drive?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I really don't know. In the past my sex drive was excessively high, partially due to things I have covered elsewhere. For me sex is a big part of expressing and feeling love.

With her leaving me, the desire left almost entirely. I am currently in the longest dry spell of my life and it is only the last week or two i have even started thinking that way again.

I think it was my hanging on to hope of R and therefore the emotional side of sex killing the desire.

Since accepting R isn't going to happen, I just want to get laid and don't even care if that seems really shallow.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

It's nothing short of a damned tragedy.

We could have had it all. Our son could have had it all. 2 short years of marriage, would have made it to 3 on the 3rd July this year. We are still legally married. 

We both are well to do, make great money and great permanent jobs. Once I got well (now) and once she got well (now) we could have made a good go of it. 

But love is a choice. STBXW chooses not to love me. Can't change that. She has closed the doors with a lock, key, combination lock and booby traps for R. 

And I simply can't love someone who I don't know. 

Especially a stranger that is unreasonable and selfish.

I don't want to love her.

And it is truly tragic.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

No its not. It's uplifting.

You have realised that regardless of what might have been, you deserve better than she could offer now. I totally get you with not wanting to love her. I feel the same. I feel good about that though as I don't want 'her' love as she is.

You have made her a want not a need, if you are as close in mindset as me as it sounds, right now she may not even be a want.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

I mean a tragedy for our son. He is 11 months old.

As a family, we would have wanted for nothing. 

He is not going to grow up in a house with mummy and daddy. 

A normal, loving house. 

He won't have a male role model, until the day comes when STBXW gets a new man.

My poor son.

Well I guess it is best that it happened now, and not when he was older.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

No.
He won't have a role model till you implement your plan. Then his role model will be you.

Is it as good as a real family unit being there for him? No. But you can still be that positive male influence for him, regardless of her getting a new man.

He may not have a typical nuclear family but he can still have two loving parents, you just have to make it happen. Chin up fella.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Today I feel very tired. It is only Tuesday but I am tired out already.

I realise I am a broken record on this site and I don't expect people to reply or to comfort me, and please believe that this is not attention seeking. 

I had a great weekend. I used my wonderful new vacuum cleaner and cleaned the house. I took my little dog for a walk down our main Esplanade, he loved it and it was good to walk. It's good to get out and about and while it takes me ages to leave the house, the second I drive away from that house I feel bettter.

I went to lunch at had a yummy steak wrap. It is my favourite place, it's a theme restaurant and there are lots of pretty waitresses to look at. I try to go out for lunch or to the movies when I can.

Sometimes I get very lonely. It is hard sometimes to have no one to talk to at home. But it is ok. The terrifying 'Lost' feeling that I used to get after they left me is largely gone now. 

I am just dealing with a lot of rejection now. A girl unfriended me on FB; but that is ok. It still hurts a bit. This is just one of the rejections that I have faced over the past couple of months.

But the main thing I am dealing with is rejection from my job. When I first started, I was almost the 'Team Leader' doing a lot of important stuff. But when this new girl came along (she is 22 or so, and the only girl in this area) she basically took over, changed everything and told me how to do my job in the first week.

I realise I will be changing work positions and areas in July, but now I have been resorted to nothing more than a filing boy.

Sigh.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Just once Sarah, just once did I want to come home from a hard day at work and be greeted by you smiling with our baby boy and saying 'Daddy's Home'. 

Just once. 

That's all it would have taken.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Morning all,

Just wanted to share. I joined up with Zoosk for a month's membership on FB last night. Talk about addictive!

There are so many lovelies out there. Quite a few in my town too which I was quite surpised at. I have been getting lots of views.

What's weird is my instant attration to redheads with freckles. Gosh they do it for me. There are 2 on there and one especially made my jaw drop. STBXW was strawberry blonde with freckles too. 

Just imagine. It would be completely and utterly weird if I got together with a younger, happier girl that looked just like STBXW.

I'm going to change my wording a bit on there, and just say that I am simply looking for a bit of female company to go out for coffee, or dinner or something. 

But it is fun and it takes my mind off of things to have these 'views'. I have gotten a couple of chat requests from women, but they seem weird.

When I first joined yesterday, I got a message from a 53 year old in my town yesterday. 

And it said:

"Are you a speeding ticket, cos you've got fine written all over you"

Please. LOL

Is it too soon to be even doing this? I think my sex drive is coming back with a vengence.

I always said that I can't be taken back a million steps by a new girl. I guess this is where my new boundaries come in, so I am not taken back.

But it is really quite fun to get this attention.

What does everyone think? Bare in mind that I am alone in this town, no friend, no family.

There is one girl in this town who is 23 and hot, hot, hot. Part of me wants to contact her and see what happens ....


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

Why shouldn't you? Just take it slow D.You might just want to be sure what the other person is looking for,so you're not at cross purposes.We all need companionship...just keep it light until you're more steady on your feet emotionally.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Thanks TBT- why not indeed.

And keeping it light is the best way. Light, easy, no expectations or strings.

Anyhoo, I am my own man now and finally, finally, I don't need anyone to make me happy, as at last, I am happy within myself.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

Have I mentioned how glad I am to see you happier Daniel...well I am!! I know I've probably said it to you before but time does wonders.We don't always forget but time does blunt the edge and hopefully we learn.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Time does huge wonders my friend and thank you my friend!

Happy. It's kind of weird, a bit disconcerting. I am trying to not deny my feelings. This phrase really struck me. Don't deny yor feelings. Even good ones! That took me a long time to work that one out. 

I kind of feel alive again (for now). But I still get my days. I love my boy so very much, he is my whole world. 

As usual, I have massive major life events coming up in the next few months. So I have to remain calm.

Usually these things would scare the hell out of me and worry me.

But after the sheer pain I have been through, sure they are 'concerning' but once, I would have panicked, been indecisive and flustered beyond words.

But now? I can deal with them. On my own. And I am proud of myself for that.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

Forever Changed said:


> But now? I can deal with them. On my own. And I am proud of myself for that.


Good for you D.Like you,I also have my days,but I've learned to take them in stride.The Serenity Prayer is my friend!


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Here is something interesting and sad that I remembered yesterday.

I asked Sarah to marry me on this day, the 17th of April 2009.

On the Tall Ship. We had a wonderful time that weekend. We were so in love.

I insisted on getting the newspaper for that day, to remember that day as a keepsake.

The headline on the first page, in big black letters was Tragedy.

:'-(


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

I just have to ask. 

You said: _"So there's *this girl*......" _

What she related to *that_girl?*:rofl:
Talk About Marriage - View Profile: that_girl


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Hahaha no man.

Damn I still get bummed that I ruined what could have been a wonderful friendship with this girl. But as a man, I thought with my other head. Stupid 'being a male'. What's garbage is that I didn't even want to go there! It's hard to explain. I wasn't even 'turned on'. 

The other night, I almost texted her to tell her that I miss her (I do). The brief but wonderful friendship was really fun and it made me really happy. It was explained to me to write a letter and post it to her to extend the hand of friendship, if she would like. 

But now that I know what I know, I will do neither.

But, life goes on and the world still turns.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

Are you talking about the alcoholic wrist cutting stripper? OH HELL NO! That b!tch was crazy and would have used you and dumped you as a friend or a lover no matter what. Very BPD, the bad kind that cannot be helped and will only drag yourself down.
Did you even check out for men who are recovering from relationships with abusive women and the non-abusive family and friends who love them | Shrink4Men like I said? The shrink there Dr. T writes all about this dangerous type of woman.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Yeah the very same man. I like to believe that under all of her issues, we would have been great friends, even lovers. I could see that pain behind her eyes, and she could see mine.

She has been through so much tragedy, the poor girl. We could have helped each other. I do hope that she is going well. 

And I haven't checked out that link, I must tonight. The computers here at work block some sites.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Nsweet said:


> Would have used you and dumped you as a friend or a lover no matter what.


But what pains me is that I said to her that I would have to be ok if she walked away from me.

She said 'Dan, I'd never walk away from you'.

And here I am.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

But I guess in her eyes, I let her down, and tried to take advantage of her. Just like every other guy she has most likely been with.

If only I had gone home when she said 'Come lie with me'.

If only, we would still be friends.

Dammit.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

Oh No, no, no, no HELL NO! You think "under all her issues....." she would of let you help her, that she would have appreciated you for showing her the way? You and every other guy she suckered in with that victim date-bait crap. She had plenty of chances to work on herself before she met you, but she doesn't want help. 

You think a girl with a ton of tattoos and an alcohol problems who hates her daddy, who told you she cuts her wrists and used to sell her body for drug would let you into her life and let you try to figure her out so you could teach her how to be a healthy human being, but no. It's doesn't work that way! She only wants men in her life who will enable her to keep doing what she's doing and she will only be with nice guys until she uses them and dumps them.

What the.... need to reach through my computer to smack the sh!t out of you! YOU DID NOT DO ANYTHING WRONG! Understand! She was using you the whole time, just like she's used all of her exes she told you were bad men. Not all of them were bad men, but she uses tha story to make men feel like maybe they can save her. You say "I will show her what true love means" but all you get in return after she's through pumping up your ego and telling you "Baby, I will never leave you", is constant criticism and devaluing you becuase she can't feel comfortable being with someone normal. 

Get it together man! You dated an even worse version of your ex wife. Remember, remember how everyone and theur mother told you to avoid a relationship for about a year so you could get your head together and move onto a healthy girl..... THIS IS THE REASON WHY!!!!!! If you don't take time to figure out for yourself how your depressive and dependent mother trained you to be a rescuer care-taker type looking for girls to save, because that's what excites you and feels comfortable. You can be a hero, and you can be a nice guy, but you can't go out looking for women to save or you will only find women who are CHRONICALLY HELPLESS! 

Do you want to end up with a woman who got you to commit after a few weeks, and spends all of her free time at home telling other men on FB what an idiot you are? No? You don't want a woman who's going to get pregnant on the first night and then sit of her fat ass all day calling you a loser for doing everything she asks and loving her no matter what? Do you want a repeat of the last one but in a woman who's much more clever about hiding her toxic personality to reel you in and pretend she's going to help you? No woman is going to help you get over your b!tch ex wife, and no woman should be burdened with that responsibility. Only you can help you, and only you can force yourself to avoid severly damaged women once you recognize the red flags.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

Nsweet said:


> You don't want a woman who's going to get pregnant on the first night and then sit of her fat ass all day calling you a loser for doing everything she asks and loving her no matter what? Do you want a repeat of the last one but in a woman who's much more clever about hiding her toxic personality to reel you in and pretend she's going to help you? No woman is going to help you get over your b!tch ex wife, and no woman should be burdened with that responsibility. Only you can help you, and only you can force yourself to avoid severly damaged women once you recognize the red flags.


You really think there aren't women out there who want to help a man that's been through a traumatic situation with another woman? I just can't believe all of them will issue damage picking up where the evil one left off at...


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Dude, in her defence she never talked about her exes to me, only that she tried to get back together with her exH but it didn't work out due to him not wanting to be a good father.

And I don't believe that she told everyone what an idiot I was on FB. She was pretty private on FB and never trashed anyone when I was her FB Friend.

With all due respect, I think you are painting her, and especially STBXW in a very bitter way. My STBXW is a good woman, and a good mother. The way she treats me now is nasty, but I guess that this is because she only remembers all the perceived hurts that I caused her. I don't blame her. 

I think sometimes that we over analyse a lot her on TAM, about the opposite sex. We are all human and we all have issues and baggage.

She really was a nice girl, very smart, very articulate. We both had major issues and the whole point of it was to support each other.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

There are nurturing and supportive women out there, but it's not her job to mother you through your issues. I say by the time you're ready to date again you should be able to talk about your past, but not completely confide in her like she's your shrink. That's not healthy and it's just plain creepy. 

Are all woman going to hurt you after a bad relationship, certinly not...... BUT you're more likely to go after more of the same in order to get closure if you do not take time off first. And the ones you go after too soon after a heartbreaking breakup are going to be the more exciting women who remind you of what you had in the ex, but you're going to have a harder time moving slowly when you see "THE ONE" or more realistically THE ONE who can fool you.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

Forever Changed said:


> Dude, in her defence she never talked about her exes to me, only that she tried to get back together with her exH but it didn't work out due to him not wanting to be a good father.
> 
> And I don't believe that she told everyone what an idiot I was on FB. She was pretty private on FB and never trashed anyone when I was her FB Friend.
> 
> ...


And why do you think I'm painting both of them in an negative image? Because I'm trying to rial you up and get you to stop bashing yourself to defend their images in your head. Every freaking other day you come on here depressed telling us how you had a good thing and somehow you messed it up. Every other day since you came here man. And then every TAM member who tries to point out the flaws in your logic gets pushed away because you want to beat yourself up and tell us "NO, no, no, I'm the bad guy", but you're not! 

And really, you're going after these two women who were impossible to please. STBXW treated you like crap while you waited on her hand and foot while she was preganant and never ignored FB long enough to spend time with you..... You told us you were an angry monster around that time when she ignored your needs and then got her mother to do the same.

This last girl you told us was so perfect, come on! Do you really think she would have been a good wife knowing her history? God no! Unless she wanted therapy for herself, there's not a thing you could have done to "fix her". And even her ex husband stayed away for a reason. Maybe he was some abusive jerk, then again unless you met him and spent time around him he could be staying away from her for a multitude of reasons.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

It seemed to be that I was the one that she confided in about HER issues. Like I was HER shrink. Looking back, this was kind of draining and I felt a bit used. I only told her about my situation, I never went on and on about. Just told her how it was.

Because she had been through so much tragedy, I could listen to her and offer advice to her from what I have learnt from you all on TAM. She was the one confiding in ME. I felt very much appreciated, and I thought I was helping. I tried to get to have a laugh and I made her laugh which felt good. 

The more I think about all this, and I have recently joined Zoosk and have been reading bad reviews about this site, is that everything is too damned hard nowadays. I have a bad taste in my mouth and it leaves me cold.

Seems like the only was to meet a new girl is simply by approaching them in person and asking them for a coffee.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Nsweet said:


> And why do you think I'm painting both of them in an negative image? Because I'm trying to rial you up and get you to stop bashing yourself to defend their images in your head. Every freaking other day you come on here depressed telling us how you had a good thing and somehow you messed it up. Every other day since you came here man. And then every TAM member who tries to point out the flaws in your logic gets pushed away because you want to beat yourself up and tell us "NO, no, no, I'm the bad guy", but you're not!
> 
> And really, you're going after these two women who were impossible to please. STBXW treated you like crap while you waited on her hand and foot while she was preganant and never ignored FB long enough to spend time with you..... You told us you were an angry monster around that time when she ignored your needs and then got her mother to do the same.
> 
> This last girl you told us was so perfect, come on! Do you really think she would have been a good wife knowing her history? God no! Unless she wanted therapy for herself, there's not a thing you could have done to "fix her". And even her ex husband stayed away for a reason. Maybe he was some abusive jerk, then again unless you met him and spent time around him he could be staying away from her for a multitude of reasons.


Thanks for that man, that is the truth right there. 

The reason she left me is that I was an alcoholic. I can say that now without going to pieces. 

Yes I did everything, worked at my job, everything around the house, you know the story.

But we were both heavy heavy drinkers when we met.

Think I wanted to drink? Yes, everyone says the alkie blames everyone else. I get that. It was my problem, I own it.

I drank like we normally did during her pregnancy. Did I go to every unneccessary appointment with her? Yes. Did I do EVERYTHING in my power to help her during her pregnancy. YES. DID I KNOW IN MY HEART THAT BABY WAS GOING TO BE OK? YES. 

Yes, she wanted me to stop. Yes, the FIL wanted me to stop. Yes she told me numerous times. But then she started getting obsessed. Add PIL, no respect, work problems and every other bull**** thing that happened to us.

But when she left she said that she didn't find me sexually attractive anymore. The sex part - that's a whole different story.

I am not a bad man. But I was a NICE GUY then. Problems.

I wish I could sit down and talk to you about how it was.

It was NOT ALL MY FAULT.

*The official reason that she left me is because I was an alcoholic. The unofficial reason goes much, much deeper into her issues. But she will never own her side of the martial breakdown.*


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

And I was not an Angry Monster, I just was terrified, anxious and hypervigilant around STBXW and MIL.

NOW, I don't need drink to tell them.

NOW I am a MAN who doesn't agree with everything and go along WITH EVERY SINGLE THING.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

Forever Changed said:


> It seemed to be that I was the one that she confided in about HER issues. Like I was HER shrink. Looking back, this was kind of draining and I felt a bit used. I only told her about my situation, I never went on and on about. Just told her how it was.
> 
> Because she had been through so much tragedy, I could listen to her and offer advice to her from what I have learnt from you all on TAM. She was the one confiding in ME. I felt very much appreciated, and I thought I was helping. I tried to get to have a laugh and I made her laugh which felt good.
> 
> ...


OMG look! You need to spend time on shink4men researching how abusive personality type women lure unsuspecting men into their lives as care-takers. You don't think I have heard the same script about what a troubled life she's had. I have, many many times until I discovered how I was going after more of the same types of women. 

They lure you in unknowingly using advanced psychological tactics of sharing secrets and telling you too much about their troubled lives so you'll take pity. And I heard the same things about how "My daddy was a [email protected]" or how "my exes were all jerks, but you're special!". It's like a script, you'll hear it a lot if you meet enough women. 

The way it works is they tell you about their troubled past too soon and you take pity on them and tell them everything is going to be ok. You feel you can trust someone who would tell you this in confidence. If you meet her needs right then and and make her feel better temporarily she chases after you, but she only comes to you with problems and then seems to like you when you comfort her and pay attention to her. Normally this wouldn't be a bad thing and would be something you want in a partner, but that's not the reason why you should be wary.

After you pick her spirits up enough and make her feel really good about being herself, she will begin to tell you things like how special you are and no one she's met has been like you. Again not the single red flag here. The real damage comes with how she places you on a pedestal as fast as possible, almost to the point where you feel uncomfortable and that things are moving too fast but then she kisses you and you let it go. The faster she places you on a pedestal the quicker she's going to knock you down because she's over qualifying you based on how you treat her not who you are as a person. 

The way you know you're in a bad relationship like this is right after she has you and begins to rip you apart for being yourself. You'll see one or two WTF moments where she berates you over nothing and then goes back to being super sweet, but after that it's a very quick downward spiral of criticizing you and telling how you need change for her. Why would someone tell you how special you are and how in love they are with you to only weeks later tear you down and make you feel like a failure for not making her happy 24/7? 

You see you really want to take your time getting to know someone before you make a relationship first. Had you waited a month longer you would be asking TAM for advice on a girl who's acting weird instead of belittleing yourself for doing it again and messing up a relatiosnhip with a perfect woman. And really that's a red flag right there. Narcissistic women won't really make you feel like sh!t when they leave you because you'll be ready for them to go, just not pull the rip cord so soon. Borderline women however, they'll make up excuses for why they're perfect and you're the horrible jerk who ruined a good thing and made them cheat or abandon you. 

If you're tearing yourself up for doing something to make this new woman leave you.... Buddy, you didn't even know each other long enough to make what you had a serious relationship. It was all just sex, no long term friendship that would have kept you two together when your relationship wasn't so exciting and new anymore. 


No one is like you, you're special The real reasons come later when


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Borderline women however, they'll make up excuses for why they're perfect and you're the horrible jerk who ruined a good thing and made them cheat or abandon you. 

THIS. STBXW - THIS.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

Forever Changed said:


> Thanks for that man, that is the truth right there.
> 
> The reason she left me is that I was an alcoholic. I can say that now without going to pieces.
> 
> ...


I think I sent you a copy of a web link for Homer McDonald's 'Stop Your Divorce'. In it in one of the last chapters is advice for a woman who's husband has a drinking problem. He tells her to leave him the hell alone and let him figure out he has a drinking problem on his own. How whenever she gets on his case he finishes his own case:rofl: 

The same goes with you! You were an alcoholic, but a functional one at that. You knew you had a problem and you still kept your job and all of that. But the way she handled it was nothing short of emotionally abusive. No matter how bad it is, and really I don't see you beeing that much of an alcoholic because you didn't do any of the addictive behaviors or start puking blood and slapping your wife around. 

The thing is, all your stbxw would have to do to get you to drink less or drink at more appropriate times is be a little more nurturing with you and ease the stress you're dulling with booze. Provided, you're not seriously addicted it would work in a few short weeks. 

But that wasn't the reason..... It's never the reason!

Your drinking was just the first excuse she had before telling you she wasn't sexually attractive to you and whatever she could think of after that. I'm sure you probabaly heard one brand new excuse every time you talked to her and tried to get her to talk about your marrigare. You want to know the real reason she left? I think it was like a lot of other young newlywed women.... She was disappointed her fantasy marriage didn't turn into reality when she tied the knot with you. what was the saying, something about even a really good marriage being sort of.... boring? She just didn't want to face reality or do anything to fix her situation and her mom didn't want to help her because she was only stepping in to side with her.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Wow man, thank you for that. That last paragraph really hit home. You are utterly 100% correct.

Yes excuses. Didn't pursue my hobbies. Felt like a brother and sister etc etc. Then I had her mother on my case telling me what hobbies to have and what to do.

Thank you very much NSweet. And yes I did get the link of Homer McDonald, thanks man.

I'm somewhat speechless at the moment ...


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Hi everyone, 

So, here I am back at TAM.

A quick update if anyone cares or wants to listen.

I went to the docs this weekend just gone and I am now on Lexapro. It's only been 3 days but I can my mind is not racing anymore. Dont know if it is a placebo effect, but is doing something. It also seems to be helping with my 'Emotional Detachment Classes' (of which I am the only student and teacher hahaha).

I was really going downhill last week. Now, I have not cried in 3 days.

I have changed a couple of things at home, I now shower in the other shower which helps break the routine. I used to collapse in the other shower when it first happened but not anymore. Don't know why I didn't do it sooner. It used to be STBXW's shower.

So STBXW just sent me the new parenting plan for our son. He will be turning one on the 14th of May. She also sent me a couple of pictures of a birthday party for one of his little friends that they went to. 

Last Skype, I asked if she was going to have a party for his first bday. Her family and all and sundry always have huge parties for milestones. This is one of them. Our boys very first birthday. She said that she wasn't. But the more I think about it she probably is and just not telling me.

So for our next visit I was going to travel down to where she is, 1.5hours drive away from where they live. So in this email she wrote telling me to stay closer to where they actually live. Because 'they still have to travel 1.5 hours and find accomodation'.

And in the new plan she basically said that she will never bring Declan to this town, rather meet in the capital because 'it's easier and fairer'. Bear in mind the distance between the capital and this town is about 2.5 hours drive.

So with this 1.5 hour accomodation thing.

For me to travel to the capital, it costs hundreds of dollars in taxis/plane fares/accomodation and food. Not to mention putting the pets in the boarding place (not cheap). Not to mention trying to work around my work obligations. For her to travel to the capital, is just petrol and she has free accomodation/board there and her parents always come too because for some reason she can't do it by herself. 

So I have come to the stage of whatever.

Just, whatever.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

It also states in the parenting plan that she is going to live with baby in the 'local area'. They have put baby gates up at her parents.

So looks like she is going to live with her parents indefinitely.

The thing that I am questioning is that who is going to be Declan's male figure in his life?

Certainly can't be me. STBXW still will not refer to me as his daddy. She never says on Skype 'thats your daddy'. 

Whatever.

What was semi interesting is the FIL breezed past on Skype and told Declan to say hello to daddy and tell him all about your week. STBXW didn't do anything. 

It matters not.

So I am just journaling here. 

It pains me to think that Declan will not have the opportunity to do and learn things with his dad. So far away. He looks so very much like me, and he has the same expressions. I can already tell he is going to be incredibly smart. 

When I sit outside on my own at night, I think of him and all the things that I could be teaching him and showing him. No one needs to answer this question as I am just journaling. But what kind of mother all but shuts out the father of her child? What kind of mother treats her child like her exclusive property? And in the parenting plan, she said that she won't leave Declan with me overnight and will leave him alone with me if he seems 'happy and settled'. WTF.

Anyways .... who cares. Whatever will be will be.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

That really sucks FC,

She's making co-parenting so impossible that you just have to give up visitations all together, or make them a special occasion a few times a year. *sigh* This is the feminist double standard
that really sucks....... The mother can take her child and deny visitation to the father and it's perfectly legal. 

It's not about being "fair" and you know that, it's about her feeling in control of you and "winning" ie taking what you want and lording it over you. A rational mom would at least work with you on a parenting plan btw.

I was a child raised with a mother like that, and just let me tell you he's going to want to meet you when he's a teenager or later when he get's sick of her one sided stories about you and want to find out for himself.

For right now, you've got the right idea..... Let her have him! You know she's not going to be happy if she can't feel in control of you, like a child who stole your toy and only enjoys having something you can't have. Act like you don't care, which you're doing, but continue to at least try to be a part of his life, like you're doing. Sooner or later you just know she's going to going to get sick of motherhood and will relax her visitation with you. 

The only thing I have to stress is that you want to keep up contact with the in-law parents at least a few times a month. If your wife is being horrible and spreading lies about you being a bad father, and they know for a fact you've been paying child support and trying to be a part of his life....... Then she get's screwed by her own games. Just from the sounds of your story try to talk to the FIL because MIL is crazy.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Nsweet, thanks for your words man you are right. 

Oh she said in the email if I wanted to 'propose any changes'. But I already know that anything I say won't matter and she will have her way anyway. She's a teacher you see, and it has been explained to me that she is treating me like one of her little students. Teachers are like that; institutionalized in this regard.

Yeah I think I am on the right track with 'let her have him'. I sent him his birthday presents yesterday and I will be taking the day off on his bday so I can see him on Skype and I will watch him open his presents and I will have a party hat on etc. 

And the PIL. I always, without fail paying my child support. I'd like to pay more, hopefully soon when this job stuff gets sorted. And I always will pay support. He is my son and I will provide for him no matter what.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

'Lies about being a bad father'.

Oh yes I would not put this past her at all. I *know* I have been demonized to friends, family, all and sundry. FIL seems to be the only one on 'my' side.

STBXW could not have made this any more difficult.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

And I think to the future.

Sooner or later, one day she is going to have to move out of her parents place. I mean she can't stay there forever. Can she?

And then, she will be on her own with Declan. The young chap is getting older, and he is into everything. I'm not going to have any say in discliping him. Teaching him about being a man, etc etc etc.

Since they left, she has always had someone (namely MIL) with her and Declan at ALL TIMES. I'm pretty positive of this.

The very thought of her simply going for a drive, shopping or whatever with our baby, by herself is laughable. That's not the word I am looking for. But you may get what I mean.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

See, I told you so. She wants to run away from responsibilities.... She can't do that forever. She can't keep living with her parents or keep blaming all her problems on you. She's going to have to get hit with the 2x4 of life and fess up to her responsibilities, or maybe look for some dumbass to marry her so she can bleed him dry. Hopefully he'll take on child support and not leech off of what you give your son.... It happens.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Exactly right. Run away. I don't care anymore when she gets hit by the 2x4 of Life.

*And what adds more to the communication problems is that everything I do, don't do, say, email, act is disseminated all over her 'bible' Facebook Mothers Group.*

Yes, I realise that I get here on TAM and vent and carry on.

But this is TAM, not Facebook. 

So, I've got all family, friends, cousins, friends of friends AND countless numbers of women/single mothers from FB against me.

Makes life very difficult. I have to watch every.single.word.and.action.

*It's the Mother's Group on FB and her toxic friends and MIL that I fear the most. What they must be telling her makes me shudder. I have been made out to be a monster. Good God I pray for Declan. Pray that he grows up stable.*


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

Yeah, your child is now a tool for your ex wife to get a constant stream of narcissistic attention from others, and facebook is her means of having others enable her bad behavior.

*To put it another way..... She can lie and carry on an ideal image of being the perfect mother and victim of a bastard ex husband, and there's not a damn thing anyone can do to stop her. Anyone who sees through her toxic professional victim bullsh!t will just be deleted so she can keep up the image.* 
I f*cking hate facebook for this reason.

Have you read 'Stop Walking on Eggshells' yet? I can send you a copy of the workbook through email. In it you'll see some sweet examples of how to deal with a bpd relationship as a non through means of pulling away and journaling etc. 

Also you still need to keep records of how your wife is treating your son just in case you start to see neglect or abuse. Save all of your emails back and forth on a big flash drive and just stash away anything you see that raises red flags. Anything like her drinking excessively around the child or emotional abuse in extreme cases. 

Custody can be granted to the father if the mother is neglectful or abusive, but there's such an ass-backwards feminist view point within the law that makes it almost impossible. Some judges are just easily swayed by tears and lies..... It sucks for caring fathers who can't pull the struggling parent card because more slack is given to the mothers. 
Does your Ex-Wife Have a Golden Uterus Complex? 15 Characteristics of the Golden Uterus | Shrink4Men


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Yeah I'd like that workbook NSweet, thanks man.

She does not drink or doing anything crazy like that. Her family are too 'perfect'. Issues always seem to get 'swept issues under the rug'. I am referring to her, and her obvious PPD that she had. Anyone with half a brain could see that. 

I just worry that she does not refer to me as his father, I tell him that I am his daddy on Skype but she never, ever talks about me to him. I am just a man on a screen that he sees every week. 

She has been enabled and entitled her entire life, and still is. All I ever heard from her parents was 'what's best for STBXW'. Which is all well and good, they love their daughter.

But Good God, taking it to this level?

She is constantly validated by friends, FB, family, everyone. I can just imagine. 'You go girl', 'You did the right thing','He's an a$$hole', 'You're better off without him' blah blah blah.

We went through an incredibly tough time since we moved to this town, one thing after another. Constant testing times, one problem after another. 2 years of marriage. Not 20.

So she wants to throw away a marriage, a good (and now well) husband and a life that would have been financially awesome?

Well that's fine then. I've gone beyond caring. 

And to think, I gave up my life, family, friends, career and moved across the otherside of the god damned country to be with her.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Oh Lord I am in a state today. I just need to write stuff down, it makes me feel better sort of.

I broke down in the driveway this morning and I am now at work and I feel out of my body. A bit shaky. Don't know if it is the lexapro or not. I know it is going on a year but Im still not recovered. I think I am having a panic attack.

Everything is the same every day. Same routine, same nights, same morning routine, same job, same everything.

STBXW has now become irrational. Telling me how its going to be. FIL is left in the dark, STBXW and MIL are making co parenting impossible. I can see them there both at the computer putting this parenting plan together. They are not thinking about Declan, they are giving me the priviledge of seeing him, when it suits them.

So I was thinking about this plan. I pay my child support every fortnight. I am going to put to her that I every fortnight, I want copies of receipts of where my money is actually going. And I want on a fortnightly basis an email detailing Declan's medical appts, swimming lessons or anything that he is doing. Everytime I ask her on Skype how the week was I get a one word answer 'Good'. What have you been up to? 'Not much'. Hows Declan sleeping 'Good'. I literally have to push for information about what she is doing and where she is taking my son. She never volunteers information. In fact she never says he's such a good boy or anything positive. All she says is that she chases him around all day and says No to him.

Part of the Parenting Plan says this, and it makes me sick:

"These visits will continue to have S present and will be during the day time only. S will leave Declan with Dan for short periods throughout the visit, if Declan seems settled and happy"

Short periods? If Declan seems settled and happy? WTF?

If anyone cares to listen does anyone have any advice?

Dan


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

I keep telling you, search around shrink4men.com Dr. T has a lot of great advice for men in your situation.... And I know I saw advice for keeping the ex wife from living off of spousal support and/or child support at your expense.

Btw shoot me PM with your email so I can send you a few ebooks.


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## Forever Changed (Sep 18, 2012)

Man I did have a look at Shrink for Men. Great articles. I don't know if I am searching for reasons for her behaviour but signs of the Golden Uterus sydrome are definitely there. What the hell is wrong the woman? No need for answers to that one. 

I will PM you my email address right now.

*What I do know is, that I am his father, and it is my God given right to have EVERY say in how he is brought up, and what he is exposed to.*


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

How to Navigate Divorce with a High-Conflict Ex When Children Are Involved: Don't Let your Well-Founded Fears Be Used Against You! | Shrink4Men

Hostile Dependency: Is your Wife, Girlfriend or Ex a Child Masquerading in the Body of a Woman? | Shrink4Men

Why Some Borderline, Narcissistic and Histrionic Mothers Sabotage their Children | Shrink4Men

Obsessing Over an Abusive Ex: Thoughts on Being Stuck | Shrink4Men


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