# I want to hear from men who aren't in their bio childrens lives



## meplus3 (Oct 21, 2009)

I'd like to hear from men who chose not to be a father figure to their biological children. I'm in a unique and very difficult situation and I am evaluating walking away as a choice. In my case I have not always been in my twins lives and although they love me and care about me they don't see me as their father (they do have another father figure in their lives, however). I'm capable of being a great single parent but their mom is not going to co-operate and has already begun manipulating and destroying what little relationship I have with them. I fear that if I force my way in through the court system I'm in for a lifetime of difficulty which will be bad for their lives and my life.

I want to hear if you regretted walking away, or haven't, or in general what your thoughts are years later.


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## Susan2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

Sorry not a man but want to say if there is anyone who does not regret walking away, he has to be one really big selfish prick.

Sure sounds easy to do right now, doesn't it? That's what the easy way out is......easy. You cannot know in what way or how deeply they consider you. You don't tell us their age, but I can assure you there will come the time they wish their father had been in their lives as their father, not a phantom. There will come the day they ask why you weren't there. And, your absence will affect their lives forever, not to mention their self esteem, which will also affect their lives. You say they love you. How could you consider such a thing?

What you describe is called Parental Alienation Syndrome or PAS for short. Family courts are prepared to handle most of those situations because they are familiar with how bio parents do that to each other. One or both use the children as pawns and/or proceed to prevent or interfere with the relationship between the children and the other parent. There is a price to pay, such as the court (or you) leveling contempt charges. No one can govern or police her words, but they can make her cooperate with visitation so you are able to build a parental relationship with your twins.

I understand not wanting to be bothered with her, but it will surely be worth it to never hear your children ask, "Daddy, why didn't we mean anything to you?" Your answer being, "I didn't want to be bothered with your mother." is not something either of them would ever, ever be able to understand. You couldn't explain it so that it could be understood. And what is more, you will ALWAYS be able to say you did what was right. Giving up is easy. Walking away is easy. Living up to your responsibility is the hard part in life, but this is undeniably your responsibility.

Now that you got the lecture from my soapbox LOL, I can tell you your instincts are correct. It will be hell and even though you have a good idea, you cannot imagine what she is going to put you through. To get an inkling, visit some stepparent forums and read a bunch of threads and blogs. The turmoil is constant and never ending. This is the main reason for high divorce rate of second marriages. No one really knows how to handle it. Usually the spouse (step parent) suffers either by the children or by their own spouse who can't deal with raising their bio children being products of a broken home. There are numerous causes for the ever-present problems. Once in a while, you run across a blog or post that indicates everyone is happy and cooperating all around, but those are rare. The biggest and most often-voiced complaints are from stepmothers who complain about their husband's ex wife (bio mother of his children) always trying to run and control things. She is the kids' mother, so she thinks the whole situation is her show. The second biggest complaint is about the first marriage progeny causing problems in the second marriage(s) because they cannot accept the step parent and really want their bio parents to get back together. The problem is that there are always problems is the norm. So few handle it well, and second wives (and subsequent children of this marriage) suffer the most. Many try to get family counseling with a counselor/therapist/psychiatrist/psychologist familiar with step family dynamics. It's a whole 'nother monster.

I'm sure you can see how those fathers do persevere at all cost, whether the cost be attorney fees to take the birth mom back to court yet again or whether the cost is at the expense of his second wife. As upsetting, frustrating, aggravating, and vicious as the ex might be, they don't lose sight of the fact that they are the father and cannot just walk away. By and large, it seems to me they don't handle many things very well, but their intentions are always to stick it out.

Tell you something else too, when I was dating I would never be bothered with a guy who didn't parent his children and pay his child support. I don't know what caliber of women you date, but no self-respecting lady will want to be bothered with you.

In that same vein, the step mothers on those forums also persevere for the sake of the children involved. They are not biological parent but realize those children need their father. These women put up with a lot.....an awful lot from all three sides - their husband, husband's first children, and husband's ex wife (or ex girlfriend). They never grow accustomed to the constant turmoil, but they know to do whatever it takes to try to keep their own family together while being accommodating to the fact that hubby has other children who also need him.


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## Crypsys (Apr 22, 2010)

meplus3,

While I am in my children's lives, my father walked out on my mom and I when I was 10. I am now 33 and I still haven't heard from the man. 

For a long time I hated him honestly. I couldn't figure out why I was so bad that my own father would want nothing to do with me. It took me till I was a senior in High School to realize the problem was him and not me. At that time, I still hated him though for leaving and just getting out of my life. 

In my early 20's I had my first child and my confusion at that point was even greater. How could a father choose to not have anything to do with their kids?

It was about when I was in my mid 20's that I finally gave up hating him. I now feel nothing but pity. That he missed out on his own son and is missing out on his grandchildren.

I am not going to try to tell you what to do, but IMO every child needs their father. There will always be that nagging question they have of WHY!?!? if their own father abandons them.


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## meplus3 (Oct 21, 2009)

I made my decision long before reading your posts, but thanks for confirming it. It's just difficult to face paying thousands of dollars to force someone that hates me into my life forever. That said, I saw my girls the day after posting this and there was not a shred of doubt about what I needed to do. Wish me luck.


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## Susan2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

I wish you well and applaud you for doing the right thing. So very glad you will never have to face that kind of regret and your girls don't ever have to feel abandoned. You're a great guy. I could tell that you were struggling with the decision and not just cold-hearted.


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## Anooniemouse (May 5, 2010)

Let me give you a view from a different perspective, but first I want to say I feel your pain. Its not an easy, nor comfortable place to be. Its the kind of problem that gnaws, and tears at you for years to come if you can't get a positive resolution. 

The court system is generally the absolute worst place to try to resolve these issues, but it does have one meaningful remedy. The people who have inclinations to abuse (and that is what is it) children through PAS are often the same ones that will abuse the legal system to no end. A custody fight (because its the only legal remedy that is likely to change this in a real way) is like a dropping a nuclear bomb, and then declaring war. If you think she is hostile now ... you have no idea how hostile, or anything else she will be then. The other thing is, should you lose a custody battle, you can throw most cooperation out the window after for good. 

Yes, the courts do see PAS, but they are largely incapable of meaningful action short of custody change. Something the attorneys generally wont tell you: The courts are useful at compelling payment. They have a lot of means to do this, with some I consider downright draconian, and as bad as the behavior I expect from third world communist dictatorships. What they don't have in a meaningful way to force (or enforce) people being civil to each other. The courts are loathe to actually put a mother in jail for visitation interference, and short of changing custody around, they have little real remedy other than a verbal scolding, and a threat that is unlikely to actually be invoked to enforce it. Be realistic about what they can, and can't do, and more to the point, will, and wont do. 

While that doesn't mean the courts wont ...on the 4th, 6th time through -- it generally means that you spend a ton of money, a ton of time, a ton of energy that could have been spent productively on something else, have your life under a microscope (and all of the assorted parasites that come with family court should she decide to abuse the court system with unfounded allegations, which is a high probability in a PAS case) to end up with 5 minutes of watching your ex wife getting a verbal scolding, and finger waiving from a judge should you try to resolve only the issues of PAS, and visitation through the court system. (Not knowing your present custody arrangement.) The courts may throw you the placation award of shared custody, with primary remaining with her. This is still right back where you started. If she couldn't work it out with you before, its only going to add to what she can't work out with you. Its another piece of paper that largely falls under the courts can't force two people to get along, and you can't cut a child in half clause. At the end of the day how well all of this works is almost entirely up to how reasonable both of you are willing to be to make it work. 

Courts are also loathe to change custody period, and the longer a situation goes on, the more likely it is to be made permanent. They call it continuity of environment. Also the less contact you have, the less likely they are to change anything. (Which is probably what set the whole issue off in the first place, yes?) All of that being said, if its bad enough you are considering walking away, its probably bad enough to merit thinking about what is involved in trying to change primary custody. If you are going to do it, do it sooner than later as the odds generally decrease with time. While a change of custody may not completely eliminate the problem, its a big shock to the system, and reduces the amount of time an alienating parent has to influence a child. Sometimes its the only meaningful remedy. 

*If at all possible, find another way to get the trash talking to stop, and other alienating behaviors to stop.* There are two things I would suggest to try first (still consult with a good family lawyer, and see if you can find one that has successfully handled several PAS cases in the past.).

I don't know if you are able to sit down in a room, and have a civil conversation with your ex, but this is the first place to start. Try to find a way to coach it in words that aren't directly confrontational, and answers that aren't defensive. If you can work it out there, great. Some states offer mediation for issues like this for free (to keep this kind of train wreck out of family court). This is worth taking advantage of if your state does this, and it is a ton less adversarial than bringing in the lawyers. (That doesn't mean you shouldn't be talking to one now though, you should be.) The generally have some type of counselor, whether its a social worker, or psychologist to mediate it, and the goal is simply to resolve the issues, and get it on paper, then rubber stamp that with a judge. If she makes an agreement, great, maybe the end of the problem, maybe not, but its one step closer if you are willing to see it through until the end. 

Even if you walk out of mediation without an agreement, or she declines to go to mediation, the legal notice that you are seeking mediation tends to startle the alienating parent a bit, and sometimes that is enough to make them realize you take it seriously enough that you might take the next step if it doesn't improve, and they could end up facing a lengthy legal battle, lose custody of their children, etc. (Generally nothing from those mediation sessions can be used outside of it, but there are a few things which can, and you need to check your local laws about that before agreeing to mediation.) If she agrees to go it puts both on you in the same room to work on the issue for a couple dedicated hours. You'll gain insight into her thinking process, and what she is really angry about. It is unlikely to hurt to try it. On the downside, in my state you can't compel it to work on problems first. Its a completely voluntary process, but it reflects poorly upon her should she decline it if you are truly willing to take the next step. 

I hope my post doesn't come off overly negative. I've been through some of the same things you are going through now. I hate to see anyone go through that. I wish I had been willing to bend a ton more, and insist upon a few more things at the beginning to prevent her from carrying that anger at the get go. That seed of anger festered for years, and it became a full blown rage at me later. Its a bad place to get to when kids are involved. 

If you've done something to genuinely make her angry with you (or she perceives you have) apologize. If your ex has an axis ii disorder (such as borderline personality disorder), arm yourself with knowledge about it before you deal with her again. Try in your heart to forgive her as much as you can. There is a cycle of anger, and bitterness that can happen with this that doesn't help anything, and it goes both ways. Not only can it poison your relationship with you child, and your ex, but it can poison your future relationships, job, and even your health. 

I know that is easier said than done. I was beside myself with things like making the 1000 mile trip to see my daughter only to find out she told my daughter I was coming a day earlier, that I didn't show because I didn't love her, and took her for a weekend to a theme park so no one would be home when I got there. That "something extra" to get someone to that level of hate may have happened a long time ago, but the regrets from letting that fester are deep. Anything you can do to put a circuit breaker on that is worth it in the long run for everyone involved. 

Pick a couple things to be grateful for as well. If is she is still in the same state, it makes life a lot easier. Start with that reminder every day of the good things in your life. Its good for your health if nothing else.


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## meplus3 (Oct 21, 2009)

Thanks for all of the advice, I really appreciate you taking the time to share your experiences. I hope that my situation is easier than yours over the long term. The fact that we live in the same city will most certainly help.

I think this is more influenced by control issues than PAS. She has an unyielding, absolute need for control over all decisions (even though she's made some seriously bad ones) and that's why we are where we are. I didn't do anything to her to make her hate me, she's just being cruel because I've become a threat to that control. I'm past almost all of the anger and am really thankful that we weren't married. My life is great since the breakup with the exception of the stress that comes with a custody battle. My hope is that her attorney will tell her that she has no grounds whatsoever to deny me custody and that she should settle before spending thousands of dollars more to hear a judge say it. We'll see.


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