# Affair Helpers and CoHorts



## Cowboy2

Hey all,

Been a while since I've been on here. My wife of 20 + years had an affair that started about 6 years ago. It was on again off again for close to 3 years to one level or another for a variety of reasons, the primary one being I didn't have the balls to take a hard stand against her behavior. When I finally got educated, in large part to TAM, and got my head out of my ass and was ready to walk she woke up out of her fog and for the most part things have been improving in our marriage the last several years. In a weird way the affair made me grow on a personal level in ways I never would have otherwise. 

The reason I am posting today is because we are having a 4th of July gathering at our house. A husband, his wife, and their son are coming over. The husband was one of my wife's confidants during the affair. This guy never comes across my radar in day to day life. My wife used to work with him and is friends still with him as well as his wife. I know he thinks I don't like him because of the fact he was my wife's confidant during he affair and he's right. I don't like him. In years past from my wife I got the "it's not that he wanted me to be with the other guy it's that he wanted what's best for me, what makes me happy". And of course the reason for this was my wife painted me as the monster bad guy at home to justify her actions. This guy and his family have been in my house a few times in the last few years and I just ignore him. I caught communication between this guy and my wife that showed he was a big cheering section for her and advised her to go be with this other man. So yeah, I don't like him.

We also do things from time to time with my wife's best friend and her husband. Her best friend helped her a lot during the affair as in helped her communicate with the other man, etc. Again my wife portrayed me as the bad guy which as we all know the wandering spouse is good at doing in order to justify their behavior and get others in their court. 

So I don't take many things personally anymore, just no point to it. But I've been thinking it's time to take a stand on having interaction with either of these 2 people who to one degree or another helped my wife with her affair. I know the hard liners will say anyone who helped facilitate an affair should be cut out completely and I understand that. On one level I don't give a crap because it's wasted negative energy but another part of me says I should take a harder stand here.

I'd enjoy hearing others thoughts and experience in this. Thanks in advance and have great holiday.


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## MattMatt

Cowboy2 said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Been a while since I've been on here. My wife of 20 + years had an affair that started about 6 years ago. It was on again off again for close to 3 years to one level or another for a variety of reasons, the primary one being I didn't have the balls to take a hard stand against her behavior. When I finally got educated, in large part to TAM, and got my head out of my ass and was ready to walk she woke up out of her fog and for the most part things have been improving in our marriage the last several years. In a weird way the affair made me grow on a personal level in ways I never would have otherwise.
> 
> The reason I am posting today is because we are having a 4th of July gathering at our house. A husband, his wife, and their son are coming over. The husband was one of my wife's confidants during the affair. This guy never comes across my radar in day to day life. My wife used to work with him and is friends still with him as well as his wife. I know he thinks I don't like him because of the fact he was my wife's confidant during he affair and he's right. I don't like him. In years past from my wife I got the "it's not that he wanted me to be with the other guy it's that he wanted what's best for me, what makes me happy". And of course the reason for this was my wife painted me as the monster bad guy at home to justify her actions. This guy and his family have been in my house a few times in the last few years and I just ignore him. I caught communication between this guy and my wife that showed he was a big cheering section for her and advised her to go be with this other man. So yeah, I don't like him.
> 
> We also do things from time to time with my wife's best friend and her husband. Her best friend helped her a lot during the affair as in helped her communicate with the other man, etc. Again my wife portrayed me as the bad guy which as we all know the wandering spouse is good at doing in order to justify their behavior and get others in their court.
> 
> So I don't take many things personally anymore, just no point to it. But I've been thinking it's time to take a stand on having interaction with either of these 2 people who to one degree or another helped my wife with her affair. I know the hard liners will say anyone who helped facilitate an affair should be cut out completely and I understand that. On one level I don't give a crap because it's wasted negative energy but another part of me says I should take a harder stand here.
> 
> I'd enjoy hearing others thoughts and experience in this. Thanks in advance and have great holiday.


I would be so very tempted to ask his wife how she felt about her husband being an enabler of your wife's affair?

I mean, she needs to know the mindset of her husband in case he should ever think about cheating on her, right? 

I am not suggesting you should do this, but the very knowledge you *could* do this might give you a psychological edge on him.


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## TDSC60

The affair supporters should have been cut out of your life and marriage as a condition of staying married - 6 years ago.

I would take a stand now. Let your wife know that being around these two people and anyone else who supported her affair causes you anger and pain still. That you never want to see them or have them in your home again. Tell her every time you see them it is like ripping the bandaid off again.


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## larry.gray

I'll toe the hard line. If they haven't gotten there yet, call and cancel. If they are there, pull your wife aside and tell her that they have to leave and why.

Your wife shouldn't like them either. Decent people don't give the advice they gave. I have used the words "you need to be happy, that is what I want for you." But it was only in the context of divorce or work it out. I would never say cheat.

What makes you think they won't cheerlead another affair? You already know their morals'


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## farsidejunky

His dismissal from your life should have been a condition for R, as with all toxic/enabling persons of the affair.

The more interesting question is why this was not a condition of the R at the time R was agreed upon.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## 2ntnuf

Yep, it's a little late. Make up some lie and tell them. After all, didn't they lie to you? Who cares what they think? You know what they think of you already. Remove them from your life. Remove your wife, too, with a divorce, if she doesn't agree. She should be fully remorseful, understanding and have your back.


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## rzmpf

Cowboy2 said:


> So I don't take many things personally anymore, just no point to it. But I've been thinking it's time to take a stand on having interaction with either of these 2 people who to one degree or another helped my wife with her affair. I know the hard liners will say anyone who helped facilitate an affair should be cut out completely and I understand that. On one level I don't give a crap because it's wasted negative energy but another part of me says I should take a harder stand here.
> 
> I'd enjoy hearing others thoughts and experience in this. Thanks in advance and have great holiday.


My thoughts:
Why does your wife invite people you don't like? 
That they were enablers of her affair makes it only worse.
What does your wife think about this situation, what does she think about you and your feelings regarding this? Does she care?


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## RWB

Cowboy,

Toxic friends should be removed/booted from your FWW life, period. It seems these in question not only knew of her affair(s), they facilitated and encouraged it. Time for the boot. 

A number of my FWW's best friends knew she was having an affair. Most had cheated on their H before and were divorced or separated. Her best friend (co-worker, I call Toxicity) had even had an affair with the same OM my wife was sleeping with. All very pretty and smiling on the outside, "Shiny Happy People", Toxic as plutonium.


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## 2ntnuf

If you don't have the balls to tell him and your wife, just accidentally shoot a few roman candles near him, set off an M80 or three near him and have an accident with his burger or steak. Chicken **it in my book, but effective.


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## EunuchMonk

I see why you were cheated on brother (and likely will again).



> So I don't take many things personally anymore, just no point to it. But I've been thinking it's time to take a stand on having interaction with either of these 2 people who to one degree or another helped my wife with her affair. I know the hard liners will say anyone who helped facilitate an affair should be cut out completely and I understand that. On one level I don't give a crap because it's wasted negative energy but another part of me says I should take a harder stand here.


Classic doormat logic. No More Mister Nice Guy (Get the book!).

You are still trying to be cordial with people who are enemies. Yes, you heard me, enemies! I would be afraid to invite this man and his wife to my home. Aggravated assault, grievous harm, aggravated battery are a few charges that come to mind. Locate your testicles and cancel that event.

If I come off harsh, don't take it personal, but you really need to put an end to this.


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## Malaise

Dump them.

And let your wife tell them why, in your presence. They should have already been gone.

And, as Matt says *I would be so very tempted to ask his wife how she felt about her husband being an enabler of your wife's affair?
*

If your wife doesn't like it, it means she values them over you.


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## 2ntnuf

I'm thinking he was just brazen enough that he didn't care if Cowboy2 knew.


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## manfromlamancha

This piece of [email protected] and all other enablers/supporters should have been removed from your life 6 years ago (as others have been rightly telling you).

In any case, get rid of him from your life and if you do it make sure his wife and others who know him, know why. Explain that its not that you wish him harm but really wish that his spouse and others that know him get to know for their own good! No really - kick him out of your lives and warn him that there will be consequences should he ever contact your wife again.


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## MJJEAN

Maybe I'm crazy, but if my DH had an affair and invited those who knew of and encouraged the affair to my home, I'd personally tell them they are not welcome in my home and exactly why they are not welcome in my home. And, if DH had a problem with that, he'd be free to leave with them.


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## 2ntnuf

ExLax is your friend.


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## Cowboy2

Pretty much the responses I had expected and really what feels right.

For the record I am a huge believe in NMMNG. That book changed my life in a lot of ways. 

I don't see things in quite the same black/white. I go more on my gut which is they shouldn't be involved in my life in any form. 

The interesting reaction will be when I tell my wife I won't have her best friend in our lives anymore. I don't care what will happen but it will be interesting to see. Gotta wonder if it loses some of it's value after the years.


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## 2ntnuf

Cowboy2 said:


> Pretty much the responses I had expected and really what feels right.
> 
> For the record I am a huge believe in NMMNG. That book changed my life in a lot of ways.
> 
> I don't see things in quite the same black/white. I go more on my gut which is they shouldn't be involved in my life in any form.
> 
> The interesting reaction will be when I tell my wife I won't have her best friend in our lives anymore. I don't care what will happen but it will be interesting to see. Gotta wonder if it loses some of it's value after the years.


First and foremost, it's about you. Secondarily, it will be interesting to see what your wife's reaction will be. 

This is about respecting you and, if your wife doesn't respect you, she cannot love you.


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## MattMatt

2ntnuf said:


> First and foremost, it's about you. Secondarily, it will be interesting to see what your wife's reaction will be.
> 
> This is about respecting you and, if your wife doesn't respect you, she cannot love you.


Oh, she could love him very, very much, indeed.

But she might also be incredibly silly, too.


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## 2ntnuf

MattMatt said:


> Oh, she could love him very, very much, indeed.
> 
> But she might also be incredibly silly, too.


I'm sorry Matt. I don't know what kind of love that would be, if it isn't associated with respect for him? Lose respect for the man, she loses attraction and love. That's the way I understand it. I wouldn't want a woman who didn't respect me. I wouldn't want to be with a woman I didn't respect. It's that simple for me.


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## VladDracul

Has it dawned on her best friends husband that his was wife played along because she may be involved in a little hanky panky herself. She obviously thinks it ok to have a little on the side.


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## RWB

Cowboy2 said:


> The interesting reaction will be when I tell my wife I won't have her best friend in our lives anymore. *I don't care what will happen but it will be interesting to see. *
> 
> Gotta wonder if it loses some of it's value after the years.


Reminds me of the 1st Fugitive Movie with Tommy Lee Jones, inside the Dam chasing Harrison Ford... _"I really don't care!"_

I think after you catch your wife EA-PA cheating on you for years on end, being lied to and gas-lighted to friends and family, unknowingly, potentially exposing you to disease... You really think I could give a damn if I say something that gets you upset? 

Seriously?

Maybe the first thing any couple in R should do... Print a Emergency Exit map to to the front door and post it throughout the house.


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## BobSimmons

Cowboy2 said:


> I caught communication between this guy and my wife that showed he was a big cheering section for her and advised her to go be with this other man.


I get you reconciled with your wife, but seriously, wtf? You allow this man into your house?

Why is your wife still friends with this dude?

I don't understand folk seriously. Sorry guy, I'm going to duck out of this one.


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## GusPolinski

MJJEAN said:


> Maybe I'm crazy, but if my DH had an affair and invited those who knew of and encouraged the affair to my home, I'd personally tell them they are not welcome in my home and exactly why they are not welcome in my home. And, if DH had a problem with that, he'd be free to leave with them.











_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sparta

You're one of those Mr. nice guys Right... In your story you finally did something that showed her that you were strong at least enough to snap her out of her fog...This is a complete disrespect you by the way on so many levels. She want to strong man in her life. This could set you back.! How dare she even think to even staying friends with this POS shame on you for a week stance on something that you already knew was not right. Seems to me your wife's immersed into her fog Fantasy life. This POS is laughing at you. That would be it for me and I wouldn't physically remove him from my house with extreme prejudice. 

OP take back control of your life ASAP get your balls back tell your wife they are not going to be in your life in any capacity. STOP being afraid of her. she's the one that went and had an affair.! she supposed be doing the right things to make things right with you. For all you know he could've been an OM a at one point or another, you know how these cheaters lie.! Don't think for one minute, you absolutely know the whole truth about everything, when it comes to her affair's
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cowboy2

Friend and family have been uninvited to the holiday event. I told my wife he is no longer allowed in my house. 

Initial response was "He just wanted me to be happy". I also heard she "didn't remember" the few words of support in her endeavors I refreshed her memory on. 

I told her what you remember is irrelevant, it's what I remember that's important here. I told her I'd be happy to call his wife and let him know the reason I don't want him at the house. She called shortly after.


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## 2ntnuf

That's the way! No craziness, just the way it will be as long as you are in her life. Consequences suck sometimes. Oh well...tough.

Now, suck it up and have a good time with her. That will show you aren't doing it to hurt her, but to set boundaries. 

Have a great day Cowboy2!


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## NoChoice

OP,
During her A how would you describe your W's character? How would you describe the character of her best friend and that of her co-worker. If her character has truly changed then what does she now have in common with people of such low morality? I would consider this carefully as it may prove to be very important.

Ask yourself why a person who has grown in character would want to associate with those who have not, then ask the same question of yourself.


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## 2ntnuf

I don't think many of them grow. They just find acceptance.


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## MarriedDude

You did the right thing.....today.

Now, what about tomorrow? If you ever relax the new rule, allow any contact to go without consequence or repercussion you will have lost the ground you gained today. 

Remember..its not about her or the other couple...its about what you will tolerate and what you will not tolerate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Malaise

Cowboy2 said:


> Friend and family have been uninvited to the holiday event. I told my wife he is no longer allowed in my house.
> 
> Initial response was "He just wanted me to be happy". I also heard she "didn't remember" the few words of support in her endeavors I refreshed her memory on.
> 
> I told her what you remember is irrelevant, it's what I remember that's important here. *I told her I'd be happy to call his wife and let him know the reason I don't want him at the house*. She called shortly after.


Did she just uninvite them or did she explain to the wife why. If she didn't explain why, it's a job only half done. Without the explanation why, you just look like a controlling jerk, exactly how your wife portrayed during the A.

Tell the wife how her husband supported your W as she cheated on you.


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## MJJEAN

As others have said, I think it would be a good idea for you to ask your wife to explain why she is ending the friendship. 

First, so that you don't come off as a controlling jerk. If they believe you are a controlling jerk and she contacts them again, they'll reinforce her bs because they have no other point of view to consider.

Second, consequences. For both her and for them. Social consequences are important. Outside of what is covered in the law, society is responsible for behavior. If neither they or your wife suffer any consequences for their actions, how will they learn not to repeat them?


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## MarriedDude

If it is important to you socially and in terms of appearance...send both of them an email and cc your wife..

Keep it positive...something like...as we continue our successful reconciliation, its important to distance ourselves from negative influences..both former and current. We have valed our friendship with you, but it is time to move on. 

Thank you for supporting our decision and wishes..

Or something like that
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunCMars

2ntnuf said:


> ExLax is your friend.


Yes.

But you need to also take a hard-stool softener. These characters will not exit with out a stretch, a scratch and a groan. 

Onerous, they be.


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## larry.gray

Cowboy: You mention that your wife would bash you to others. Has she apologized for doing that? Further, has she enumerated all that spewed lies to, and corrected the record with them?

She should be doing this in a fashion that indicates that she is doing this willingly and not forced by you. Unwillingness to do this should cause you pause in the choice to reconcile.


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## 2ntnuf

SunCMars said:


> Yes.
> 
> But you need to also take a hard-stool softener. These characters will not exit with out a stretch, a scratch and a groan.
> 
> Onerous, they be.


I think mineral oil helps with motility, as well. Maybe combining the two would help those characters to move more quickly?


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## barbados

The fact that your WW has kept this person in her life speaks volumes as to how little respect she has for you. 

As does the fact that she had an affair for multiple years.

She even has the balls to still socialize with him and bring him to your house !!

Dude seriously time to walk from the shame marriage.


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## VFW

We all have friends outside of our marriage, people we knew before our spouse, people at work or people from hobbies. However, not all of these people are going to be invited to your home, this should be reserved for friends of the relationship. A friend of the relationship would have advised her to fix the relationship or end it honorably.


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## VladDracul

Cowboy2 said:


> Friend and family have been uninvited to the holiday event. I told my wife he is no longer allowed in my house.


*Way to go my man. *


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## LucasJackson

Cowboy2 said:


> Friend and family have been uninvited to the holiday event. I told my wife he is no longer allowed in my house.
> 
> Initial response was "He just wanted me to be happy". I also heard she "didn't remember" the few words of support in her endeavors I refreshed her memory on.
> 
> I told her what you remember is irrelevant, it's what I remember that's important here. I told her I'd be happy to call his wife and let him know the reason I don't want him at the house. She called shortly after.


You've already resolved this correctly. I just wanted to say you did a good job here. The easy smell test with situations like this is if it feels wrong to you, then it's wrong. Obviously Ms. Cheaterpants doesn't have a good compass to what's right and wrong right now so it'll be best to defer to your judgment on these issues. Maybe someday she'll figure out right and wrong and if/when that day comes then she can have some input in these matters.


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## sokillme

Cowboy2 said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Been a while since I've been on here. My wife of 20 + years had an affair that started about 6 years ago. It was on again off again for close to 3 years to one level or another for a variety of reasons, the primary one being I didn't have the balls to take a hard stand against her behavior. When I finally got educated, in large part to TAM, and got my head out of my ass and was ready to walk she woke up out of her fog and for the most part things have been improving in our marriage the last several years. In a weird way the affair made me grow on a personal level in ways I never would have otherwise.
> 
> The reason I am posting today is because we are having a 4th of July gathering at our house. A husband, his wife, and their son are coming over. The husband was one of my wife's confidants during the affair. This guy never comes across my radar in day to day life. My wife used to work with him and is friends still with him as well as his wife. I know he thinks I don't like him because of the fact he was my wife's confidant during he affair and he's right. I don't like him. In years past from my wife I got the "it's not that he wanted me to be with the other guy it's that he wanted what's best for me, what makes me happy". And of course the reason for this was my wife painted me as the monster bad guy at home to justify her actions. This guy and his family have been in my house a few times in the last few years and I just ignore him. I caught communication between this guy and my wife that showed he was a big cheering section for her and advised her to go be with this other man. So yeah, I don't like him.
> 
> We also do things from time to time with my wife's best friend and her husband. Her best friend helped her a lot during the affair as in helped her communicate with the other man, etc. Again my wife portrayed me as the bad guy which as we all know the wandering spouse is good at doing in order to justify their behavior and get others in their court.
> 
> So I don't take many things personally anymore, just no point to it. But I've been thinking it's time to take a stand on having interaction with either of these 2 people who to one degree or another helped my wife with her affair. I know the hard liners will say anyone who helped facilitate an affair should be cut out completely and I understand that. On one level I don't give a crap because it's wasted negative energy but another part of me says I should take a harder stand here.
> 
> I'd enjoy hearing others thoughts and experience in this. Thanks in advance and have great holiday.


Guy wouldn't be in my house eating my food. I would also have given him a piece of my mind. Why because he deserved it. He was probably trying to get to your wife. Does his wife know? Frankly I would bring it up in front of his wife. Don't be passive man, haven't you learned already? Defend your turf. Your wife may act all upset but secretly she will like it.

***Never mind seems you already followed my advice.


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## sokillme

Cowboy2 said:


> Friend and family have been uninvited to the holiday event. I told my wife he is no longer allowed in my house.
> 
> Initial response was "He just wanted me to be happy". I also heard she "didn't remember" the few words of support in her endeavors I refreshed her memory on.
> 
> I told her what you remember is irrelevant, it's what I remember that's important here. I told her I'd be happy to call his wife and let him know the reason I don't want him at the house. She called shortly after.


Call his wife anyway, she deserves to know. "I am sorry I had to dis-invite you Mrs. So-an-so, but I feel like you husband was a hindrance to my marriage when my wife was having her affair your husband seemed to be encouraging it. Just want you to know I have nothing against you or you fine sons." >

Maybe that's just me, but the older I get the less I care about being nice, I care about clarity.


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## TDSC60

Good job Cowboy.

I hate to say it, but did you also tell your wife you are not comfortable with this man (or any other person who encouraged her affair) in her life in ANY way?


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## RWB

Cowboy2 said:


> I also heard she* "didn't remember"* the few words of support in her endeavors I refreshed her memory on.
> 
> I told her what you remember is irrelevant, it's what I remember that's important here.


For a fact... when the panties hit the floor the memory goes out the window. Damn... I must of heard "I really don't remember" a 1000 times over from my WW.


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## Marc878

Good job. I don't allow snakes in my house.

Just for the record they'd be blocked and no contact either. Period. Wife and kids.


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## MattMatt

2ntnuf said:


> I'm sorry Matt. I don't know what kind of love that would be, if it isn't associated with respect for him? Lose respect for the man, she loses attraction and love. That's the way I understand it. I wouldn't want a woman who didn't respect me. I wouldn't want to be with a woman I didn't respect. It's that simple for me.


There are people who can compartmentalise so effectively that it is as if they are two separate people.

Of course, when the cheater spouse and the kind, loving spouse collide for whatever reason there is a terrible kaboom! and then there is the fallout when they realise they are a cheating POS.


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## 2ntnuf

MattMatt said:


> *There are people who can compartmentalise so effectively that it is as if they are two separate people.
> *
> Of course, when the cheater spouse and the kind, loving spouse collide for whatever reason there is a terrible kaboom! and then there is the fallout when they realise they are a cheating POS.


Agree. Don't know why I forgot that.


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## citygirl4344

MattMatt said:


> There are people who can compartmentalise so effectively that it is as if they are two separate people.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, when the cheater spouse and the kind, loving spouse collide for whatever reason there is a terrible kaboom! and then there is the fallout when they realise they are a cheating POS.




You know..this is so true. It's like two separate people in one body.


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## TaDor

In my book, a person "friend" who helps someone to CHEAT, is themselves - a CHEATER or will cheat. Since they see nothing wrong with it.


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## Malaise

Cowboy2 said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Been a while since I've been on here. My wife of 20 + years had an affair that started about 6 years ago. It was on again off again for close to 3 years to one level or another for a variety of reasons, the primary one being I didn't have the balls to take a hard stand against her behavior. When I finally got educated, in large part to TAM, and got my head out of my ass and was ready to walk she woke up out of her fog and for the most part things have been improving in our marriage the last several years. In a weird way the affair made me grow on a personal level in ways I never would have otherwise.
> 
> The reason I am posting today is because we are having a 4th of July gathering at our house. A husband, his wife, and their son are coming over. The husband was one of my wife's confidants during the affair. This guy never comes across my radar in day to day life. My wife used to work with him and is friends still with him as well as his wife. I know he thinks I don't like him because of the fact he was my wife's confidant during he affair and he's right. I don't like him. In years past from my wife I got the "it's not that he wanted me to be with the other guy it's that he wanted what's best for me, what makes me happy". And of course the reason for this was my wife painted me as the monster bad guy at home to justify her actions. This guy and his family have been in my house a few times in the last few years and I just ignore him. I caught communication between this guy and my wife that showed he was a big cheering section for her and advised her to go be with this other man. So yeah, I don't like him.
> 
> *We also do things from time to time with my wife's best friend and her husband. Her best friend helped her a lot during the affair as in helped her communicate with the other man, etc. Again my wife portrayed me as the bad guy which as we all know the wandering spouse is good at doing in order to justify their behavior and get others in their court.
> *
> So I don't take many things personally anymore, just no point to it. But I've been thinking it's time to take a stand on having interaction with either of these 2 people who to one degree or another helped my wife with her affair. I know the hard liners will say anyone who helped facilitate an affair should be cut out completely and I understand that. On one level I don't give a crap because it's wasted negative energy but another part of me says I should take a harder stand here.
> 
> I'd enjoy hearing others thoughts and experience in this. Thanks in advance and have great holiday.


Nice job. One down, one to go. 

Same drill, she makes the call in your presence and cuts this person out of your lives.


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## arbitrator

*This thread has successfully triggered me somewhat! 

I see definite similarities with my RSXW and her best friend, who I later found out knew exactly when every "I" was dotted and every "T" was crossed regarding my skanky RSXW sleeping with different men from her past, even in the midst of our marriage!

I know it's not very Christian like, but let's just say that even to this day, I would not take a leak in this two-faced woman's guts, even if she was engulfed in flames! To this very day, I have not seen her since right prior to the "trial separation!"

But if I ever see her again, I plan on verbally unloading on her fat ass right in front of her husband and my RSXW and hers!

Regarding your W's friend, I'd cancel this impending, planned-out little soiree  so damned fast that it would make their heads spin!

With friends like these, you damn well don't need enemies!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## drifting on

Cowboy2

I read your opening post and nothing else. If this has been said please forgive me for duplicating advice. I see some problems here, and they will come back to haunt you. If your wife has kept these people in her life, well, she isn't remorseful. A person who is completely remorseful will feel your pain, they won't try to add more pain to what you already feel. Yes, I used the word try, because your wife is actually trying to hurt you by keeping cheerleaders to her bad choices. Seems she has made another bad choice by keeping communication going even after six years. My take on your wife is she might be regretful of the affair, but I think she is more sorry she was caught then anything. 

You might want to reevaluate your reconciliation. You might want to establish new boundaries. At the very least you pull each of these two aside and explain your wife lied, they fell for it, but advising one to gain happiness by cheating is just too ignorant of advice that you can't remain in any form of communication. As you walk them to the door be sure to mention how nice it was that they advised your wife to have an affair to their spouses. 

It seems like your wife went to many to justify her affair, by chance has she also told her family she had an affair. If she did, did they also enable her or advise her she should be happy? Just curious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Malaise

drifting on said:


> Cowboy2
> 
> I read your opening post and nothing else. If this has been said please forgive me for duplicating advice. I see some problems here, and they will come back to haunt you. If your wife has kept these people in her life, well, she isn't remorseful. A person who is completely remorseful will feel your pain, they won't try to add more pain to what you already feel. Yes, I used the word try, because your wife is actually trying to hurt you by keeping cheerleaders to her bad choices. Seems she has made another bad choice by keeping communication going even after six years. My take on your wife is she might be regretful of the affair, but I think she is more sorry she was caught then anything.
> 
> You might want to reevaluate your reconciliation. You might want to establish new boundaries. At the very least you pull each of these two aside and explain your wife lied, they fell for it, but advising one to gain happiness by cheating is just too ignorant of advice that you can't remain in any form of communication. As you walk them to the door be sure to mention how nice it was that they advised your wife to have an affair to their spouses.
> 
> It seems like your wife went to many to justify her affair, by chance has she also told her family she had an affair. If she did, did they also enable her or advise her she should be happy? Just curious.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Read this well.


----------



## drifting on

MattMatt said:


> There are people who can compartmentalise so effectively that it is as if they are two separate people.
> 
> Of course, when the cheater spouse and the kind, loving spouse collide for whatever reason there is a terrible kaboom! and then there is the fallout when they realise they are a cheating POS.




This is probably the best way I can describe what happened to my wife, and as a husband, watching this happen is very ugly. The person you once loved with all your body and mind crashes right in front of you. It's like watching in slow motion and being unable to help in any way. Even if you no longer love this person, if you have kids you don't want this to happen to one of their parents. Watching the realization of their actions is painful, in my wife's case this nearly destroyed her, realizing she had become what she once hated with venom.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

drifting on said:


> This is probably the best way I can describe what happened to my wife, and as a husband, watching this happen is very ugly. The person you once loved with all your body and mind crashes right in front of you. It's like watching in slow motion and being unable to help in any way. Even if you no longer love this person, if you have kids you don't want this to happen to one of their parents. Watching the realization of their actions is painful, in my wife's case this nearly destroyed her, realizing she had become what she once hated with venom.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The same thing happened to Morituri.

His wife's evil POS drug dealing lover sent a video of him and his wife having sex to their Myspace account. 

He accidentally found it, was sobbing his heart out when his wife returned home.

When she saw what he was watching she began being violently sick.

She eventually had a nervous breakdown caused by her two worlds colliding. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sokillme

arbitrator said:


> *This thread has successfully triggered me somewhat!
> 
> I see definite similarities with my RSXW and her best friend, who I later found out knew exactly when every "I" was dotted and every "T" was crossed regarding my skanky RSXW sleeping with different men from her past, even in the midst of our marriage!
> 
> I know it's not very Christian like, but let's just say that even to this day, I would not take a leak in this two-faced woman's guts, even if she was engulfed in flames! To this very day, I have not seen her since right prior to the "trial separation!"
> 
> But if I ever see her again, I plan on verbally unloading on her fat ass right in front of her husband and my RSXW and hers!
> 
> Regarding your W's friend, I'd cancel this impending, planned-out little soiree  so damned fast that it would make their heads spin!
> 
> With friends like these, you damn well don't need enemies!*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What is RSXW? Never seen that one.


----------



## sokillme

drifting on said:


> This is probably the best way I can describe what happened to my wife, and as a husband, watching this happen is very ugly. The person you once loved with all your body and mind crashes right in front of you. It's like watching in slow motion and being unable to help in any way. Even if you no longer love this person, if you have kids you don't want this to happen to one of their parents. Watching the realization of their actions is painful, in my wife's case this nearly destroyed her, realizing she had become what she once hated with venom.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You act like she got bit by something that made her go temperately insane. Don't agree, a WS who could do this always had it in their character. Maybe they just didn't have opportunity or motive. Better to truly see them for what they are not romanticize them as some victim of the actions that *they chose*.


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## MattMatt

Of course it is possible that his wife may not understand how hurtful her behaviour Is.

"But, she would have to be dumber than a box of rocks NOT to understand!"

Well there can be no guarantee of smartness in other people, can there? Not even in ourselves for that matter. 

I am sure if it were explained to her she would be positively mortified.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sokillme

MattMatt said:


> There are people who can compartmentalise so effectively that it is as if they are two separate people.
> 
> Of course, when the cheater spouse and the kind, loving spouse collide for whatever reason there is a terrible kaboom! and then there is the fallout when they realise they are a cheating POS.


Nah, they are just really good at lying and deceiving people. They are adulterers, they are charlatans by nature and the ones that are good at it have had years of practice at it, maybe not with affairs but in other areas of their life. It's not like they have split personalities. Any time you believe one you are taking a risk.


----------



## sokillme

MattMatt said:


> The same thing happened to Morituri.
> 
> His wife's evil POS drug dealing lover sent a video of him and his wife having sex to their Myspace account.
> 
> He accidentally found it, was sobbing his heart out when his wife returned home.
> 
> When she saw what he was watching she began being violently sick.
> 
> She eventually had a nervous breakdown caused by her two worlds colliding.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or she got caught and couldn't deal with the consequences of her actions.


----------



## sokillme

arbitrator said:


> I know it's not very Christian like


Thieves in the temple man, thieves in the temple.


----------



## MattMatt

sokillme said:


> Or she got caught and couldn't deal with the consequences of her actions.


Not entirely certain what point you are making? :scratchhead:

Because what you said does not mean that the idea of people compartmentalising is not a valid concept.

Incidentally it became apparent that the compartmentalisation of the mind of Morituri's wife began when she was a child and was subjected to severe and prolonged sexual abuse by, I seem to recall, a close family member.


----------



## sokillme

MattMatt said:


> Not entirely certain what point you are making? :scratchhead:
> 
> Because what you said does not mean that the idea of people compartmentalising is not a valid concept.
> 
> Incidentally it became apparent that the compartmentalisation of the mind of Morituri's wife began when she was a child and was subjected to severe and prolonged sexual abuse by, I seem to recall, a close family member.


the point I am making is compartmentalisation is just a very long word for "good at lying".


----------



## Cowboy2

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> During her A how would you describe your W's character? How would you describe the character of her best friend and that of her co-worker. If her character has truly changed then what does she now have in common with people of such low morality? I would consider this carefully as it may prove to be very important.
> 
> Ask yourself why a person who has grown in character would want to associate with those who have not, then ask the same question of yourself.


I want to address this as it gives me something to think about in a new way. I would say during her A she was in a very strange place. She has had depression to varying levels for many years. She has taken anti-depressants for a few years now and it's made a big difference. She was incredible self-involved during this time. She doesn't see her best friend in a way that she promoted the affair. She sees her best friend as someone that will have her back (and the other way around) no matter what. 

I would say my wife did not do the full on drop to her knees type remorse mode. She knows what she did was incredibly wrong and hurtful and has made and continues to make ongoing strong effort in rebuilding the marriage. She knows she destroyed trust on a deep level and that full trust will never be restored. It's not possible after the person you feel should be there for you through thick and thin gaslights you to your face in order to get another fix.


----------



## Malaise

Cowboy2 said:


> I want to address this as it gives me something to think about in a new way. I would say during her A she was in a very strange place. She has had depression to varying levels for many years. She has taken anti-depressants for a few years now and it's made a big difference. She was incredible self-involved during this time. * She doesn't see her best friend in a way that she promoted the affair. She sees her best friend as someone that will have her back (and the other way around) no matter what.
> *
> I would say my wife did not do the full on drop to her knees type remorse mode. She knows what she did was incredibly wrong and hurtful and has made and continues to make ongoing strong effort in rebuilding the marriage. She knows she destroyed trust on a deep level and that full trust will never be restored. It's not possible after the person you feel should be there for you through thick and thin gaslights you to your face in order to get another fix.


She says this because she doesn't want to give her up. She is choosing her over the marriage.

There has to be limits on how much of her 'back' she has. Murder, theft?

Do you see the friend as supporting the affair? If you do, that's all that matters.


----------



## sokillme

Cowboy2 said:


> She sees her best friend as someone that will have her back (and the other way around) no matter what.


Encouraging someone about an affair is not having their back, it's toxic. 

You wife hasn't done "remorseful" because she has no concept of what she has done, mostly because you have not really given her any consequences. Has she done IC? I don't believe in reconciliation much, but I really don't believe it without the "come to Jesus moment."

Question for you what is the benefit for you to stay married to a person like this? Is it just a "Sunk cost fallacy"?


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## LucasJackson

Her friend is toxic to your marriage. If your wife was serial killing or shooting heroin would this friend have her back? A true friend would have told her that she might be ruining the best part of her life and she needs to pull her head out of her butt and knock it off. I have told a couple of my good friends that very thing when they were wading into affairs. Both of them did knock it off and both later thanked me. That's "having their back" and I hope they'd do the same for me.


----------



## convert

In some ways the toxic friends that help with the affair are as bad as the affair partner, it was in my case.

It took some underhanded tactics to get one of them out of our lives.


----------



## drifting on

Cowboy2 said:


> I want to address this as it gives me something to think about in a new way. I would say during her A she was in a very strange place. She has had depression to varying levels for many years. She has taken anti-depressants for a few years now and it's made a big difference. She was incredible self-involved during this time. She doesn't see her best friend in a way that she promoted the affair. She sees her best friend as someone that will have her back (and the other way around) no matter what.
> 
> I would say my wife did not do the full on drop to her knees type remorse mode. She knows what she did was incredibly wrong and hurtful and has made and continues to make ongoing strong effort in rebuilding the marriage. She knows she destroyed trust on a deep level and that full trust will never be restored. It's not possible after the person you feel should be there for you through thick and thin gaslights you to your face in order to get another fix.





Perhaps you could just become a major a$$hat, when they come over put the two who supported the affair on one side of the room wither their spouses. Everybody else including you and your wife on the other side of the room. Then say everybody who encourages, supports, and "has their back" for an affair move to the other side of the room. Watch as nobody on your side moves, and the two spouses in the other side will most likely move to your side. If either of the two friends try to come over to your side, call them out. Tell them they have done this with your wife. I think your friends should know as well to keep those two POS's away from their marriages. Just my opinion.

Your wife is far from drop on her knees remorseful, as said in another post this friend comes before your marriage. By her keeping these friends shows she thinks nothing of your pain. By her keeping these friends is in no way rebuilding her marriage. Your wife needs to start trying a little harder.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dyokemm

Cowboy2 said:


> I want to address this as it gives me something to think about in a new way. I would say during her A she was in a very strange place. She has had depression to varying levels for many years. She has taken anti-depressants for a few years now and it's made a big difference. She was incredible self-involved during this time. She doesn't see her best friend in a way that she promoted the affair. She sees her best friend as someone that will have her back (and the other way around) no matter what.
> 
> I would say my wife did not do the full on drop to her knees type remorse mode. She knows what she did was incredibly wrong and hurtful and has made and continues to make ongoing strong effort in rebuilding the marriage. She knows she destroyed trust on a deep level and that full trust will never be restored. It's not possible after the person you feel should be there for you through thick and thin gaslights you to your face in order to get another fix.


So would you say that she has FULL and complete remorse, Cowboy?

I went back and read your old thread.

When you stopped posting, she was FAR from remorseful.....and in fact you were not even quite sure if you knew the full extent of what had even occurred in the A.

And in your first post in this update, you mentioned that the A lasted for 6 years 'at varying levels'......that is far longer than what you believed when you first came here.

Were the extra years because the A continued until relatively recently?

Or did you discover it had started a lot earlier?

In other words, is she relatively recently remorseful and you have just begun R?.....or has R been in process for a while now?

If R has been going on for a good time now, it is more disturbing IMO that she was keeping these people around.....that would seem to me that she was really stalled in her remorse and working on her issues, like she felt she has done enough because she feels your M is 'fixed' now and she has no more work to do.

Are you sure that her remorse is not only the appearance of being enough to keep you from filing for D?

Has she ever been COMPLETELY honest about the details and extent of her betrayal?.....or did/does she continue to hide this info from you, and leave you with questions as to what really went on?


----------



## Cowboy2

drifting on said:


> Cowboy2
> 
> I read your opening post and nothing else. If this has been said please forgive me for duplicating advice. I see some problems here, and they will come back to haunt you. If your wife has kept these people in her life, well, she isn't remorseful. A person who is completely remorseful will feel your pain, they won't try to add more pain to what you already feel. Yes, I used the word try, because your wife is actually trying to hurt you by keeping cheerleaders to her bad choices. Seems she has made another bad choice by keeping communication going even after six years. My take on your wife is she might be regretful of the affair, but I think she is more sorry she was caught then anything.
> 
> You might want to reevaluate your reconciliation. You might want to establish new boundaries. At the very least you pull each of these two aside and explain your wife lied, they fell for it, but advising one to gain happiness by cheating is just too ignorant of advice that you can't remain in any form of communication. As you walk them to the door be sure to mention how nice it was that they advised your wife to have an affair to their spouses.
> 
> It seems like your wife went to many to justify her affair, by chance has she also told her family she had an affair. If she did, did they also enable her or advise her she should be happy? Just curious.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Great words of wisdom here, thank you. I think in many ways she is remorseful for what she did. She knows the hurt and pain it caused. She never did the drop to her knees type remorseful actions. I do see ongoing steady strong actions by her to rebuild the marriage in many areas but I also think she is not able to be truly empathetic. I just don't know if that particular chip got made with her model. When I told her that the deepest cut and the one that has forever changed my ability to completely trust anyone was when I was in my deep dark pit and she knew it she did nothing to try to repair things then and there. If anything she used that to her own advantage. She knows how I feel about that. I own my actions and obviously I am still with her.

I agree I need to take a deeper look at the reconcilliation and establish some new boundries.

My family and her family know of her affair. During it she told her mom that I was controlling and her mother did something I am still astounded by to this day.


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## farsidejunky

Which is what?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Cowboy2

The affair wasn't 6 years unless it's still going on now. It was on/off for 3 years. From what I know it was mainly an affair for about a year. Then there may have been something going on for year 2 but nothing I ever discovered. Towards the end of what would have been the 3rd year I finally called the guys wife and told her about it. She actually knew already. After I spoke with her POS called me 10 minutes later and said he "hadn't touched her in 2 years" for whatever that means. He said they'd email every once in a while which may be the extend of it or may not. My wife said they were benign (LOL) but mysteriously couldn't produce the emails to back up her story, even from her sent folder.


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## MovingFrwrd

sokillme said:


> the point I am making is compartmentalisation is just a very long word for "good at lying".


I've got to agree with this comment, as I feel the same way. It's not always lying, but it certainly does allow for that.

It can be an amazing ability for someone who multi-tasks and can file things away for future use, and call the information up when needed.

I'm married to a high-functioning compartmentalizer. It's very good for her job, for her working mother status, for family planning and events, her ability to achieve work life balance etc.

It's not necessarily a bad thing to be married to a high-functioning compartmentalizer.

However, this compartmentalization bit me in the a$$ when it was turned to an affair. She was able to be with me. She was able to be with him. Outside of one conversation we had while she was in the middle of the affair, I had no idea. She was indeed that good.

The conversation she had with me was the old 'I love you, but I'm not in love with you' speech. It came out word for word, and was about half-way through the timeline of the affair. Had I then known then what I do now, I would have attacked like a SOB right then and there. I was too naïve to understand it.

Compartmentalizing and lying are two sides of the same coin. Being one doesn't automatically mean you are the other. But when they are in conjunction, that's when the sh*t hits the fan.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Cowboy2 said:


> Great words of wisdom here, thank you. *I think in many ways she is remorseful for what she did. She knows the hurt and pain it caused. She never did the drop to her knees type remorseful actions. I do see ongoing steady strong actions by her to rebuild the marriage in many areas but I also think she is not able to be truly empathetic. I just don't know if that particular chip got made with her model. When I told her that the deepest cut and the one that has forever changed my ability to completely trust anyone was when I was in my deep dark pit and she knew it she did nothing to try to repair things then and there. If anything she used that to her own advantage. She knows how I feel about that. * I own my actions and obviously I am still with her.
> 
> I agree I need to take a deeper look at the reconcilliation and establish some new boundries.
> 
> My family and her family know of her affair. During it she told her mom that I was controlling and her mother did something I am still astounded by to this day.


Cowboy, I disagree with what you say in the first part of the bolded section above.

Your "wife"


is not sorry at all for what she did.


does not "get it" in any way (mainly doesn't get that the cohort was damaging and harmful not one who has her back).


is doing damage limitation and minimal repair.


is still dictating what should/will happen and you are letting her.



This is NOT a reconciliation of any kind. You are being trod on all over the place.

Before you ask her to get the POS cohort out of your lives, she needs to really get it which she doesn't. So the rest doesn't matter. This "marriage" should have been over at the outset of discovery. Get out of this while you still can.


----------



## arbitrator

sokillme said:


> What is RSXW? Never seen that one.


*Thanks to my very dear friend @GusPolinski , who had it copyrighted for us all over at  Urban Dictionary, 

"RSXW" is an acronym for "rich, skanky, ex-wife!"*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TAMAT

Cowboy,

What I feel is that you have never gotten the complete and true story and your WW is still lying to you.

She has likely minimized the details she has given you and is only concerned with her own reputation.

Have her write out a timeline for the affair with the level of detail you require. Not just the sexual details, but who paid for what, who initiated, everything. She remembers everything tell her you know that she does.

Then take her to a polygraph, it's likely she will cough up more truth in the parking lot before you go into the office.

How close does the OM live to you?

Tamat


----------



## sokillme

arbitrator said:


> *Thanks to my very dear friend @GusPolinski , who had it copyrighted for us all over at  Urban Dictionary,
> 
> "RSXW" is an acronym for "rich, skanky, ex-wife!"*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



:surprise::grin2:


----------



## sokillme

LucasJackson said:


> Her friend is toxic to your marriage. If your wife was serial killing or shooting heroin would this friend have her back? A true friend would have told her that she might be ruining the best part of her life and she needs to pull her head out of her butt and knock it off. I have told a couple of my good friends that very thing when they were wading into affairs. Both of them did knock it off and both later thanked me. That's "having their back" and I hope they'd do the same for me.


Agreed, I told my friend if he had an affair I would punch him right in his face. Good friends hold each other accountable.


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## VladDracul

Sometimes I wish you guys would quit bullshyting yourselves by, "they are showing remorse". This is one of those times. What you're seeing, if its anything other than an a act, is regret--- wishing they didn't get caught, caused them emotionally or financially problems, led to punishment, embarrassment and loss of reputation or put a stop to their activities. This regret is the pain they feel for themselves and not the pain they caused you.
Remorse is something that comes long after the fact, involves shame, contemplating, with a sense of guilt and sorrow, the damage you alone done to the person who believed in you, taking full responsibility for your actions. A remorseful person will avoid doing the hurtful action again. 
Yet how many times have you heard, "my spouse and I are in a "R". He/she is showing remorse but has broke the no contact agreement and is now hugging the phone".


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## Malaise

The only way she was having her back was enabling the affair by helping to communicate with OM and helping her not to get caught.

So, in your wife's eyes she truly did have her back.

But, this shouldn't mean a dam thing to you. All that matters to you ( at least it should ) is the friend helped your wife betray you.

The friend needs to go You know this. Make you wife know it as well. ( but, I think, she already does )


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## sokillme

Cowboy2 I think you have bought the sunk cost fallacy. Tell me why do you stay with her? What is the benefit for you?


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## Sports Fan

Your wife should be made to know in no uncertain terms that if these people enter your house you will personally throw them out.

There are consequences for her actions and this should have been a consequence long ago.

Better late than ever


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## Cowboy2

VladDracul said:


> Sometimes I wish you guys would quit bullshyting yourselves by, "they are showing remorse". This is one of those times. What you're seeing, if its anything other than an a act, is regret--- wishing they didn't get caught, caused them emotionally or financially problems, led to punishment, embarrassment and loss of reputation or put a stop to their activities. This regret is the pain they feel for themselves and not the pain they caused you.
> Remorse is something that comes long after the fact, involves shame, contemplating, with a sense of guilt and sorrow, the damage you alone done to the person who believed in you, taking full responsibility for your actions. A remorseful person will avoid doing the hurtful action again.
> Yet how many times have you heard, "my spouse and I are in a "R". He/she is showing remorse but has broke the no contact agreement and is now hugging the phone".


This!! ^^^^^ I love this!!!

Maybe it's because I have only my view but I do believe she is more upset/saddened/fill in the blank by the worry of HOW OTHERS WILL SEE HER rather than the damage done to the marriage. You can bash me for my male chauvinistic point of view but I think women in general really cover their s**t because they don't want to be seen by others as the "bad girl" or the "amoral girl" who had an affair. This is the a huge reason why you get the person painting the picture of the terrible marriage or spouse at home to people - it's to justify what they are doing to others and more importantly to THEMSELVES. This is a weak ego thing in my opinion. And my wife is the Queen here - she is close to incapable of looking under her own hood at her feelings. That doesn't make it ok, it simply is what she is capable of (or isn't in this case). This is why I was the controlling horrible husband (with no proof to back it up other than wanting to look at her phone) and in her letter to me after I discovered the affair for the first time how sad and lonely she'd been in our marriage for such a long time (without once saying anything about it or showing any actions in this area). She had to paint the picture to make herself feel better which included making things up.


----------



## Archangel2

Cowboy2 said:


> This!! ^^^^^ I love this!!!
> 
> Maybe it's because I have only my view but I do believe she is more upset/saddened/fill in the blank by the worry of HOW OTHERS WILL SEE HER rather than the damage done to the marriage. You can bash me for my male chauvinistic point of view but I think women in general really cover their s**t because they don't want to be seen by others as the "bad girl" or the "amoral girl" who had an affair. This is the a huge reason why you get the person painting the picture of the terrible marriage or spouse at home to people - it's to justify what they are doing to others and more importantly to THEMSELVES. This is a weak ego thing in my opinion. And my wife is the Queen here - she is close to incapable of looking under her own hood at her feelings. That doesn't make it ok, it simply is what she is capable of (or isn't in this case). This is why I was the controlling horrible husband (with no proof to back it up other than wanting to look at her phone) and in her letter to me after I discovered the affair for the first time how sad and lonely she'd been in our marriage for such a long time (without once saying anything about it or showing any actions in this area). She had to paint the picture to make herself feel better which included making things up.


With all due respect, what are you going to do about it?


----------



## sokillme

Cowboy2 said:


> This!! ^^^^^ I love this!!!
> 
> Maybe it's because I have only my view but I do believe she is more upset/saddened/fill in the blank by the worry of HOW OTHERS WILL SEE HER rather than the damage done to the marriage. You can bash me for my male chauvinistic point of view but I think women in general really cover their s**t because they don't want to be seen by others as the "bad girl" or the "amoral girl" who had an affair. This is the a huge reason why you get the person painting the picture of the terrible marriage or spouse at home to people - it's to justify what they are doing to others and more importantly to THEMSELVES. This is a weak ego thing in my opinion. And my wife is the Queen here - she is close to incapable of looking under her own hood at her feelings. That doesn't make it ok, it simply is what she is capable of (or isn't in this case). This is why I was the controlling horrible husband (with no proof to back it up other than wanting to look at her phone) and in her letter to me after I discovered the affair for the first time how sad and lonely she'd been in our marriage for such a long time (without once saying anything about it or showing any actions in this area). She had to paint the picture to make herself feel better which included making things up.


Um you realize staying with someone like this doesn't exactly paint you in the best light. If you really think this is her then what does it make you in staying? Sorry to be harsh but why would anyone want to be with someone like that?


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## Cowboy2

sokillme said:


> Cowboy2 I think you have bought the sunk cost fallacy. Tell me why do you stay with her? What is the benefit for you?


Sunk cost fallacy I'm assuming refers to all that's been invested in the relationship and marriage? Things like years, kids, money, retirement, etc? 

If that's the case I don't really have an answer. The short answer to what is the benefit for me is not much. I'm not sure why I stay with her. We have 2 kids so there's that and we can have fun together but the list is fairly short. Time to mull this over.


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## Cowboy2

SoKillMe you aren't being harsh, you're being honest and I appreciate that. It's good to get outside perspective especially since I rarely talk about this stuff. And you're right. When I look at the relationship objectively from the outside looking in it's almost a no-brainer. It's like would anyone continue to be with someone like this? Kids are the easy fall back and I don't worry about being on my own or any of that. I honestly don't know why. Cuz I'm scared to be the one to pull the pin? Why should I be? Even if I worried about what others thought of me and my decision it's for a very good reason. S**t now I'm gonna be up thinking about this again. No worries, probably something that needs to be looked at again.


----------



## sokillme

Cowboy2 said:


> Sunk cost fallacy I'm assuming refers to all that's been invested in the relationship and marriage? Things like years, kids, money, retirement, etc?
> 
> If that's the case I don't really have an answer. The short answer to what is the benefit for me is not much. I'm not sure why I stay with her. We have 2 kids so there's that and we can have fun together but the list is fairly short. Time to mull this over.


The Sunk Cost Fallacy. The Misconception: You make rational decisions based on the future value of objects, investments and experiences. The Truth: Your decisions are tainted by the emotional investments you accumulate, and the more you invest in something the harder it becomes to abandon it.

Don't hold onto a bad thing because you invested into it. Some time the better decision is to cut your losses.


----------



## MattMatt

sokillme said:


> the point I am making is compartmentalisation is just a very long word for "good at lying".


That's not true.

It is often a defence mechanism following severe traumas such as sexual abuse.

Which can cause problems in later life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dyokemm

Cowboy2 said:


> The affair wasn't 6 years unless it's still going on now. It was on/off for 3 years. From what I know it was mainly an affair for about a year. Then there may have been something going on for year 2 but nothing I ever discovered. Towards the end of what would have been the 3rd year I finally called the guys wife and told her about it. She actually knew already. After I spoke with her POS called me 10 minutes later and said he "hadn't touched her in 2 years" for whatever that means. He said they'd email every once in a while which may be the extend of it or may not. My wife said they were benign (LOL) but mysteriously couldn't produce the emails to back up her story, even from her sent folder.


Sorry about that Cowboy.....I misremembered your OP on this thread.

You did clearly say it was 6 years AGO....not in length.

But it does appear that you still don't know the true extent or nature of the A....even whether it was an EA as she was claiming or a PA (as POSOM's statement would suggest, since 'hadn't touched her in 2 years' when you were calling at the end of year 3 of the A suggests he WAS touching her earlier in the A).

And if she has never fully come clean, then she is still not truly remorseful for what she did....in fact, IMO continued lying and deception are a 'continuation' of the A since they represent the same selfishness and lack of empathy that led her to cheat in the first place.

And that means you haven't truly been in R yet.


----------



## Thor

sokillme said:


> Nah, they are just really good at lying and deceiving people. They are adulterers, they are charlatans by nature and the ones that are good at it have had years of practice at it, maybe not with affairs but in other areas of their life. It's not like they have split personalities. Any time you believe one you are taking a risk.


There really are people who compartmentalize completely. They see the universe as truly separate sub-universes. What happens in one does not exist in the other, as long as the two are kept apart. Like galaxies, which are beautiful and independent conglomerates but if they intersect in space they distort and destroy each other.

Those I know who are such great compartmentalizers are also strong control freaks. Not that they live in paranoia, but that they believe they can control and manipulate the world to fit the way they want it to.


----------



## sokillme

Thor said:


> There really are people who compartmentalize completely. They see the universe as truly separate sub-universes. What happens in one does not exist in the other, as long as the two are kept apart. Like galaxies, which are beautiful and independent conglomerates but if they intersect in space they distort and destroy each other.
> 
> Those I know who are such great compartmentalizers are also strong control freaks. Not that they live in paranoia, but that they believe they can control and manipulate the world to fit the way they want it to.


Generally speaking this is not your typical person having an affair, this is someone who is bipolar or personality disorder or has some very serious mental sickness. In such cases it is a terrible mistake to stay married to them don't you agree? 

Again if it is true then that your WS was able to compartmentalize "Like galaxies" you should understand that this person will never be a safe spouse. However, if they are not compartmentalize "Like galaxies", they are probably not suffering from multiple personality disorder, and are really just sh_tty people. You are only deluding yourself if you act they are like they are Shirley Ardell Mason, when most likely just bad people good at manipulating others.


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## VladDracul

All this crap analysis about why your wife got involved with another man is all for nothing. The only thing that matters, as a BH, is what they can bring to the table after betraying you and most important, do they have enough romantic interest and respect for you not to go down that road again. Judge for yourself why she's hell bent to keep these other MFers around 
Looking for remorse as an ingredient to a so-called successful reconciliation is just looking for a sign that the requisite romantic interest and respect are there. If not, she doesn't feel remorse for being unfaithful to someone she sees as little more than a base camp. If that's the case, consider her companionship and occasional "putting out" as equivalent to rent payments.


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## Cowboy2

VladDracul said:


> Judge for yourself why she's hell bent to keep these other MFers around
> Looking for remorse as an ingredient to a so-called successful reconciliation is just looking for a sign that the requisite romantic interest and respect are there. If not, she doesn't feel remorse for being unfaithful to someone she sees as little more than a base camp. If that's the case, consider her companionship and occasional "putting out" as equivalent to rent payments.


Another golden nugget Vlad. What does she bring to the table in regards to making the marriage a good place again if possible?


----------



## Thor

sokillme said:


> Generally speaking this is not your typical person having an affair, this is someone who is bipolar or personality disorder or has some very serious mental sickness. In such cases it is a terrible mistake to stay married to them don't you agree?
> 
> Again if it is true then that your WS was able to compartmentalize "Like galaxies" you should understand that this person will never be a safe spouse. However, if they are not compartmentalize "Like galaxies", they are probably not suffering from multiple personality disorder, and are really just sh_tty people. You are only deluding yourself if you act they are like they are Shirley Ardell Mason, when most likely just bad people good at manipulating others.


It is a continuum, not binary. We all compartmentalize to some extent. When I come home from work I rarely think about work. I don't socialize much outside of work with my coworkers, and when I do I really don't want to talk about work. Golf league is golf, so let's not discuss crap from work even if we are coworkers.

I think in fact it very much is what the typical cheater does. They are living two lives. Now of course there are all kinds of affairs and cheaters, so we can find exceptions to everything. But the typical affair involves setting up separate orbits which do not intersect with the only common point being the cheater.

Those out towards the extreme who are pathologically personality disordered are un-safe partners. I agree with you on that. For some people this is one of the biggest shocks of discovering an affair, when they also discover just how disordered their spouse really is. These people are a small minority of the population and would be the sociopaths etc.

I don't think it is as binary as you portray, with cheaters being simply ****ty people who don't compartmentalize. There are many who know what they are doing is wrong but they believe they can control their two galaxies and that their spouse will never be harmed. They do rationalize their behavior as ok based on the separate galaxies will never meet. They are both ****ty people and compartmentalizers.


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## VladDracul

Thor said:


> But the typical affair involves setting up separate orbits which do not intersect with the only common point being the cheater.


Regarding women, I submit that the typical "wife's" affair is not two separate orbits like work and home. When a wife gets involved with another, she has usually lost a large amount of romantic interest, (usually brought about by perceived unmet needs and disappointment) and respect for her spouse. Thusfar, I've never read or heard a legitimate story where the wife said, "I am so in love with husband, he is the apple of my eye and the highlight of my life, but I'm having an affair." The OM is likely hearing a different story.
If I'm wrong, I'd like for some of the ladies on this site to educate me and tell me where I going wrong.


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## 2ntnuf

VladDracul said:


> Regarding women, I submit that the typical "wife's" affair is not two separate orbits like work and home. When a wife gets involved with another, she has usually lost a large amount of romantic interest, (usually brought about by perceived unmet needs and disappointment) and respect for her spouse. Thusfar, I've never read or heard a legitimate story where the wife said, "I am so in love with husband, he is the apple of my eye and the highlight of my life, but I'm having an affair." The OM is likely hearing a different story.
> If I'm wrong, I'd like for some of the ladies on this site to educate me and tell me where I going wrong.


I agree with you, but you asked, so here you go: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/340097-ted-talk-happy-couples-cheat.html


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## 2ntnuf

Cowboy2 said:


> Sunk cost fallacy I'm assuming refers to all that's been invested in the relationship and marriage? Things like years, kids, money, retirement, etc?
> 
> If that's the case I don't really have an answer. The short answer to what is the benefit for me is not much. I'm not sure why I stay with her. We have 2 kids so there's that and we can have fun together but the list is fairly short. Time to mull this over.


Pretty good article on it: How the Sunk Cost Fallacy Makes You Act Stupid

I read this one, too:
Warning: Believing These 10 Famous Myths Might Be Making You Dumb


----------



## sokillme

Thor said:


> It is a continuum, not binary. We all compartmentalize to some extent. When I come home from work I rarely think about work. I don't socialize much outside of work with my coworkers, and when I do I really don't want to talk about work. Golf league is golf, so let's not discuss crap from work even if we are coworkers.
> 
> I think in fact it very much is what the typical cheater does. They are living two lives. Now of course there are all kinds of affairs and cheaters, so we can find exceptions to everything. But the typical affair involves setting up separate orbits which do not intersect with the only common point being the cheater.
> 
> Those out towards the extreme who are pathologically personality disordered are un-safe partners. I agree with you on that. For some people this is one of the biggest shocks of discovering an affair, when they also discover just how disordered their spouse really is. These people are a small minority of the population and would be the sociopaths etc.
> 
> I don't think it is as binary as you portray, with cheaters being simply ****ty people who don't compartmentalize. There are many who know what they are doing is wrong but they believe they can control their two galaxies and that their spouse will never be harmed. They do rationalize their behavior as ok based on the separate galaxies will never meet. They are both ****ty people and compartmentalizers.


Nope not buying it. I think you are giving them way too much moral credit and actively downplaying their conniving nature. 

Typical example, man is cheating on his wife. He tells his wife he is going out with his friend when he is really meeting up with OP to have sex. In that action there is absolutely no compartmentalizing. He has to actively lie to his wife and then drive to the place, have sex and then continue to lie when he gets home. He has to make sure his lies match, and he always has his story straight. Every time he lies he is not separating these two worlds he is active in both of them, it just in one he chooses to lie. In fact he has to think about both of them just to make sure he doesn't get caught. This is why many cheaters talk about how glad they are it is over so they can stop lying. To lie like that you have to be intensely focused on both worlds. 

What I described there is a typical scenario of a cheaters life. It is nothing like coming home and forgetting about work until the next day. Cheating is an action, not a mindset. 

To me compartmentalizing as you describe it is an out so people don't have to deal with the hard facts of the nature of cheaters actions. 

The truth about a successful cheater is that they have to actively lie in about almost every area of there life and mostly of the people who the claim to love and are with them almost every day. They have to live an inauthentic life. They may be able to shut down the shame, guilt even remorse but this is different the compartmentalizing. It is suppressing their feelings.

The act of cheating is way too complicated to be able to work the way you say. It has to be a part of your entire life to be successful. It involves way to much subterfuge, you have to activity work at it every day.


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## Cowboy2

2ntnuf said:


> Pretty good article on it: How the Sunk Cost Fallacy Makes You Act Stupid
> 
> I read this one, too:
> Warning: Believing These 10 Famous Myths Might Be Making You Dumb


Thank you 2ntnuf, this article sums up the sunk cost fallacy very well. And it makes complete sense. It really helps lineate the emotion vs logic. Thanks.


----------



## RWB

sokillme said:


> Nope not buying it. I think you are giving them way too much moral credit and actively downplaying their conniving nature...
> 
> The act of cheating is way too complicated to be able to work the way you say. *It has to be a part of your entire life to be successful. It involves way to much subterfuge, you have to activity work at it every day.*


Sometimes...

I asked my WW (LTPAs) this exact question._ "How you could you manage your life, work, children and cheating on me all at the same time... and not go crazy."
_

I got a lesson, painful as it was. 

First, the BS generally doesn't understand or believe... affairs are pure fantasy, sexual and real, but still fantasy. Therefore, affairs don't need constant maintanence like a real marriage. My wife admitted that her AP and her would sometimes go months without communicating. They didn't need to discuss reality, like bills, sickness, church, children, just their own make believe fantasy. A few well timed emails (dribble love) and they were off and running again. 

Almost 7 years down the road, and still hard to digest.


----------



## VladDracul

2ntnuf said:


> I agree with you, but you asked, so here you go: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/340097-ted-talk-happy-couples-cheat.html


I appreciate your efforts but hearsay evidence from talk show personalities is not exactly what I had in mind. One thing did jump out at me however, that the girl banging the tree man purportedly found a relationship she never had. (after what was described as a mundane, boring life of wife and mother)


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## sokillme

RWB said:


> Sometimes...
> 
> I asked my WW (LTPAs) this exact question._ "How you could you manage your life, work, children and cheating on me all at the same time... and not go crazy."
> _
> 
> I got a lesson, painful as it was.
> 
> First, the BS generally doesn't understand or believe... affairs are pure fantasy, sexual and real, but still fantasy. Therefore, affairs don't need constant maintanence like a real marriage. My wife admitted that her AP and her would sometimes go months without communicating. They didn't need to discuss reality, like bills, sickness, church, children, just their own make believe fantasy. A few well timed emails (dribble love) and they were off and running again.
> 
> Almost 7 years down the road, and still hard to digest.


I would take what a cheater says about an affair with a huge grain of salt. It is in their interest to minimize the vile nature of their actions. 

Saying, "for me it was pure fantasy", doesn't really address the possible compartmentalizing of it. What they mean is, I never thought I would get caught and I was enjoying it.


----------



## 2ntnuf

VladDracul said:


> I appreciate your efforts but hearsay evidence from talk show personalities is not exactly what I had in mind. One thing did jump out at me however, that the girl banging the tree man purportedly found a relationship she never had. (after what was described as a mundane, boring life of wife and mother)


She certainly seems like a talk show personality, though she is a doctor of psychology. There was plenty of arguing there about whether or not it was possible and some said it was possible to be happy and have an affair. I do not think it is possible to be happily married and have an affair.


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## VladDracul

2ntnuf said:


> I do not think it is possible to be happily married and have an affair.


I think if you cross examined these happily married cheaters it would reveal that. There's a difference between happily married and happy to be married. There have been time when I hated the job but I loved having a pay check.


----------



## TRy

Cowboy2 said:


> The reason I am posting today is because we are having a 4th of July gathering at our house. A husband, his wife, and their son are coming over. The husband was one of my wife's confidants during the affair. This guy never comes across my radar in day to day life. My wife used to work with him and is friends still with him as well as his wife. I know he thinks I don't like him because of the fact he was my wife's confidant during he affair and he's right. I don't like him. In years past from my wife I got the "it's not that he wanted me to be with the other guy it's that he wanted what's best for me, what makes me happy". And of course the reason for this was my wife painted me as the monster bad guy at home to justify her actions. This guy and his family have been in my house a few times in the last few years and I just ignore him. I caught communication between this guy and my wife that showed he was a big cheering section for her and advised her to go be with this other man. So yeah, I don't like him.
> 
> We also do things from time to time with my wife's best friend and her husband. Her best friend helped her a lot during the affair as in helped her communicate with the other man, etc. Again my wife portrayed me as the bad guy which as we all know the wandering spouse is good at doing in order to justify their behavior and get others in their court.


 She still has as a confidants a guy that told her that it was OK to have an affair if it makes her happy, and still has as a best friend a person that says the same thing and even helped facilitate the affair. Neither is a friend of the marriage, and were in fact supports of her affair partner. This makes them your enemy. A loyal spouse should not keep as confidants and best friends enemies of their spouse and their marriage, end of story. Additionally, by doing this she still has in place a support structure for having another affair. This is outrageous.

Tell them and your wife that you consider them to be your enemy and an enemy of your marriage, and thus must be completely out of your wife's life for you to be willing to continue working on the marriage. That having such people still in your wife's life giving her advice makes full reconciliation with your wife impossible for you. That if they had advised her to either work on the marriage or end the marriage if that would make her happy, you would have been OK with that, but they instead told her that it was OK to lie and cheat on you, and this is not OK with you.


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## harrybrown

Sounds like time to have a serious discussion.

Have her call her "friends" and report the truth.

Also have her call the male friends wife. (with you on both calls)

How old are the kids? Is it time to see an attorney? I think that was years ago, but has she told the wife of the OM?


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## TAMAT

Cowboy,

Correct me if I am wrong, but from reading your posts, you still don't seem to have a definite idea if the affair was physical or not. Did your WW ever give a confession?

Tamat


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## Cowboy2

TAMAT said:


> Cowboy,
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong, but from reading your posts, you still don't seem to have a definite idea if the affair was physical or not. Did your WW ever give a confession?
> 
> Tamat


The short answer is no, I didn't find the smoking gun that made it definitively physical. I would be surprised if it wasn't. At a minimum it was deeply emotional which would lead one to assume it was physical.

I never got a full confession, bits and pieces over time.

My original post about the "friend" over for 4th of July and the responses have made me realize I've been not as in R as I had thought. I've done a lot of thinking this week and have some decisions to make.


----------



## eric1

Cowboy2 said:


> The short answer is no, I didn't find the smoking gun that made it definitively physical. I would be surprised if it wasn't. At a minimum it was deeply emotional which would lead one to assume it was physical.
> 
> 
> 
> I never got a full confession, bits and pieces over time.
> 
> 
> 
> My original post about the "friend" over for 4th of July and the responses have made me realize I've been not as in R as I had thought. I've done a lot of thinking this week and have some decisions to make.




It takes times

Just remember that the greatest lies that we tell are those to ourselves.

You likely are in a self-imposed false reconciliation. If you want true reconciliation you need to start from a bedrock of honesty. Period. Basically this includes a full written timeline of the affair which would then be corroborated by a poly (which at this point is your only option)

I have been coaching folks at this stuff for a long, long time. This is the bare minimum that you'd need to move ahead in a healthy manner. The sooner that you accept this the sooner you can start the real work.

It sounds like you don't have a problem being decisive. That's good.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Malaise

Cowboy2 said:


> The short answer is no, I didn't find the smoking gun that made it definitively physical. I would be surprised if it wasn't. At a minimum it was deeply emotional which would lead one to assume it was physical.
> 
> I never got a full confession, bits and pieces over time.
> 
> My original post about the "friend" over for 4th of July and the responses have made me realize I've been not as in R as I had thought. I've done a lot of thinking this week and have some decisions to make.


If you were indeed in R then your W would have gladly, on her own, get rid of anything that had to do with the A. Including her friends who enabled her. Especially them.

And, of course, a timeline and confession. 

If, you were in R.


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## MattMatt

2ntnuf said:


> She certainly seems like a talk show personality, though she is a doctor of psychology. There was plenty of arguing there about whether or not it was possible and some said it was possible to be happy and have an affair. I do not think it is possible to be happily married and have an affair.


Oh, I don't know. After all, my wife managed it.

Or do we mean "apparently happy?" 

Because that might be very different from "really happy" wouldn't it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## samyeagar

This thread sums up nicely why I would turn and walk away after an affair, not a second thought, no looking back.. Not a woman alive that would be worth this.


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## Thor

eric1 said:


> If you want true reconciliation you need to start from a bedrock of honesty. Period. Basically this includes a full written timeline of the affair which would then be corroborated by a poly (which at this point is your only option)


I call this "capitulation", and we don't see it very often. By that I mean the betrayer fully surrenders to the betrayed. An analogy which is close is that of the addict who hits total rock bottom. They've lost absolutely everything and nearly died, too. Only at this point are they capable and willing to release themselves of their attachment to their former belief system.

The cheater has to realize that they have lost everything. They've lost their marriage, their home, their family, their lifestyle, their secret life, their circle of friends, the respect of their parents and siblings, and their social status in the community. Now they are willing to put their future in the hands of the betrayed. If they love and desire the betrayed in a selfless way, they are willing to do anything to prove their love and devotion _including walking away if that is what the betrayed decides_.

Capitulation. Total surrender.

Without it the marriage may survive but it will still suffer constant poisoning from the unresolved issues within the betrayer. There will never be true R even if the marriage survives.

With capitulation there can be an entirely new relationship within the marriage. This is true R.

That's where your bedrock of honesty comes to play. The betrayer has to not only agree to total honesty but has to desire it _for the benefit of the betrayed_, even if it leads ultimately to divorce.


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## michzz

It took me years to fully grok the enormity of my ex-wife's actions and her deplorable deceptions.

But once I did, I moved swiftly to divorce her and excise her vileness from my life.

You have to realize that the women you think you love is really not the woman you are married to. That woman does not exist. The real her cheats on you and keeps socially involved with her enablers.

Plus, she is still not fully honest with you.

And you want to stay with her because? 

IMHO, time to trully grow a pair and divorce her. don't be so needy. You deserve better.


----------



## LosingHim

Thor said:


> I call this "capitulation", and we don't see it very often. By that I mean the betrayer fully surrenders to the betrayed. An analogy which is close is that of the addict who hits total rock bottom. They've lost absolutely everything and nearly died, too. Only at this point are they capable and willing to release themselves of their attachment to their former belief system.
> 
> The cheater has to realize that they have lost everything. They've lost their marriage, their home, their family, their lifestyle, their secret life, their circle of friends, the respect of their parents and siblings, and their social status in the community. Now they are willing to put their future in the hands of the betrayed. If they love and desire the betrayed in a selfless way, they are willing to do anything to prove their love and devotion _including walking away if that is what the betrayed decides_.
> 
> Capitulation. Total surrender.
> 
> Without it the marriage may survive but it will still suffer constant poisoning from the unresolved issues within the betrayer. There will never be true R even if the marriage survives.
> 
> With capitulation there can be an entirely new relationship within the marriage. This is true R.
> 
> That's where your bedrock of honesty comes to play. The betrayer has to not only agree to total honesty but has to desire it _for the benefit of the betrayed_, even if it leads ultimately to divorce.


This X1000!

Cowboy, I am a FWW. ONS with my husbands best friend and then I lied about it for close to three years and told him it was just a kiss, Aren’t I a gem? Given those circumstances, take this for what you will.

I am into the 5month of reconciliation with my husband. This sh*t ain’t easy. If your wife has not given you all of the details of her affair – with a timeline if you require one – you are NOT in true reconciliation. I told my husband the entire story of what happened. I looked my husband in the face and told him I gave his best friend a BJ. I looked him straight in the face and told him WHY I did it. Because I have boundary issues. Because I got caught up in feeling important to this guy and that my anger at my husband for making me feel insignificant made me not give two craps if I hurt him. I looked him straight in the face and told him I was a selfish, delusional c*nt who didn’t give a sh*t about anyone but ME in that moment. Cowboy, I’d give my very LIFE if I could take that moment back. I’d take a bullet for him if I could go back in time and re-do that night. I’d give my life to give him access inside my head so that he can really FEEL how I feel about what I did, how sorry I am, how much I wish I just would’ve been a better person all around.

But I can’t do any of that. But what I could do was give him his life back. I started the process to buy a new house. I told him that he would not have to pay me child support for 1 full year until he could get some things with the house paid off, get ahead on some bills, downsize the cars, etc. I didn’t fight him for my home. I did not ask for alimony. As much as it killed me – I cried every single day for 99 straight days, I told him that I would leave, that I would let him go, but that I would wait…..as long as it took until he told me it was useless to wait anymore. 

I did not tell my own best friend what happened until I came clean to my husband. I told her the same lie I told him – that I just kissed him. When I told her……..she yelled at me. She asked me why I had done what I did. She told me I’d been a sh*tty wife and that he had every right to kick me out. But she also told me she loved my husband and that she hoped he’d change his mind. She offered to talk to him about infidelity and how to work on things to make them right (her husband had an affair). She asked me what *I* was going to do to make it right. MY BEST FRIEND HELD ME ACCOUNTABLE. That’s what true friends of your marriage do!

So here we are 5 months into reconciliation and we have no friends. Know why? Because my POS AP told all of our mutual friends what happened and not a one of them told my husband. Not only did I betray him, they did too. Is it lonely? Do I get sad sometimes? Sure. Do I occasionally see a picture on facebook of my old group of friends and long for the days that things were “normal”? Absolutely. BUT, in order to keep those friends, I would be betraying our marriage. They are not friends of our marriage. They were toxic scum that helped contribute to our downfall by supporting my AP and NOT my husband! NONE of them held me or AP accountable. It just “wasn’t their business” or “that’s between them” while they all continued to lie in my husbands face and support the AP. It’s more than just the betrayal of the spouse. It’s been the betrayal of all of the people who you trust to have you and your spouses back. To support your marriage and your life, to hold your feet to the fire when you screw up. Those are toxic people. To you, to your wife and to your marriage.

If your wife is not willing to say f*ck them all……she’s not sorry, she has no remorse and you better get out quick. Before she does it again.


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## jb02157

If this other couple were in fact helping her have the affair, I wouldn't welcome them in my house anymore. I tell you wife that you are going to take a hard stand against what she did and those who helped her and condoned her actions. I would also tell this guy's wife that he was an enabler. I honestly wouldn't care what other people think about whether you should or should tell her. Enabling an affair, in my mind it practically as bad as having one yourself.


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## 2ntnuf

MattMatt said:


> Oh, I don't know. After all, my wife managed it.
> 
> Or do we mean "apparently happy?"
> 
> Because that might be very different from "really happy" wouldn't it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You'd have to watch the video to confirm that. I believe it was meant as really happily married.


----------



## Anon1111

on the male friend guy--

he obviously was trying to get a piece of your wife. why else would he be an emotional tampon for her?

also-- the very fact that your wife has male friends that are not either (1) related to you or (2) your own friends first is an issue.

there is no reason for an honest married woman to be making male friends.


----------



## MattMatt

Anon1111 said:


> on the male friend guy--
> 
> he obviously was trying to get a piece of your wife. why else would he be an emotional tampon for her?
> 
> also-- the very fact that your wife has male friends that are not either (1) related to you or (2) your own friends first is an issue.
> 
> there is no reason for an honest married woman to be making male friends.


I have to respectfully disagree with that sentiment. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cowboy2

Thor said:


> I call this "capitulation", and we don't see it very often. By that I mean the betrayer fully surrenders to the betrayed. An analogy which is close is that of the addict who hits total rock bottom. They've lost absolutely everything and nearly died, too. Only at this point are they capable and willing to release themselves of their attachment to their former belief system.
> 
> The cheater has to realize that they have lost everything. They've lost their marriage, their home, their family, their lifestyle, their secret life, their circle of friends, the respect of their parents and siblings, and their social status in the community. Now they are willing to put their future in the hands of the betrayed. If they love and desire the betrayed in a selfless way, they are willing to do anything to prove their love and devotion _including walking away if that is what the betrayed decides_.
> 
> Capitulation. Total surrender.
> 
> Without it the marriage may survive but it will still suffer constant poisoning from the unresolved issues within the betrayer. There will never be true R even if the marriage survives.
> 
> With capitulation there can be an entirely new relationship within the marriage. This is true R.
> 
> That's where your bedrock of honesty comes to play. The betrayer has to not only agree to total honesty but has to desire it _for the benefit of the betrayed_, even if it leads ultimately to divorce.


This is very very good. The way I feel now is akin to the marriage may survive but will still suffer constant poisoning from the unresolved issues within the betrayer.

It's gotta be open and exposed and healed, one way or another.


----------



## Malaise

LosingHim said:


> This X1000!
> 
> MY BEST FRIEND HELD ME ACCOUNTABLE. That’s what true friends of your marriage do!
> 
> BUT, in order to keep those friends, I would be betraying our marriage. They are not friends of our marriage. They were toxic scum that helped contribute to our downfall by supporting my AP and NOT my husband! NONE of them held me or AP accountable. It just “wasn’t their business” or “that’s between them” while they all continued to lie in my husbands face and support the AP. It’s more than just the betrayal of the spouse. It’s been the betrayal of all of the people who you trust to have you and your spouses back. To support your marriage and your life, to hold your feet to the fire when you screw up. Those are toxic people. To you, to your wife and to your marriage.
> 
> If your wife is not willing to say f*ck them all……she’s not sorry, she has no remorse and you better get out quick. Before she does it again.


Yep


----------



## TAMAT

Cowboy,

Another impression I get from your writings, is that your WW has not changed the behaviors which lead to her affair in the first place. This has left you in an insecure place and I would guess every time she leaves the house without you or picks up her phone thoughts of the affair flash into your mind.

She still feels it is OK to have males in her life for emotional support.

Have her take a polygraph test.

Alternately you can tell the OM your WW has told you everything, and you would like him to verify what your WW told you. Tell him the undiluted truth will make this go away.

Tamat


----------



## Cowboy2

TAMAT said:


> Cowboy,
> 
> Another impression I get from your writings, is that your WW has not changed the behaviors which lead to her affair in the first place. This has left you in an insecure place and I would guess every time she leaves the house without you or picks up her phone thoughts of the affair flash into your mind.
> 
> She still feels it is OK to have males in her life for emotional support.
> 
> Have her take a polygraph test.
> 
> Alternately you can tell the OM your WW has told you everything, and you would like him to verify what your WW told you. Tell him the undiluted truth will make this go away.
> 
> Tamat


I'm not insecure at all. I don't care that much, that probably speaks to my level of investment in the marriage anymore. 

I only get an emotional trigger every once in a while. We watched an episode of Black Mirror about cheating like 6-8 months ago. Watching the wife gaslight her husband and deny everything her husband asked until he showed her evidence piece by piece through multiple conversation was like whoa, been there, felt that surreal feeling.


----------



## drifting on

Cowboy2

I have a few questions to ask, and if you oblige and answer them, feel free to pm the answers if you wish. 

1) do you know the OM?
2) is the OM friends with the best friend or former male coworker?
3) are you sure this affair is over?
4) if OM is friends with the two affair enablers, is your wife still conversing through them with OM?
5) if she worked with OM, do they still work together?

To be direct and honest cowboy, I believe these two friends remain in her life as a connection to OM. I truly hope I'm wrong, but I would stay vigilant at the least.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cowboy2

drifting on said:


> Cowboy2
> 
> I have a few questions to ask, and if you oblige and answer them, feel free to pm the answers if you wish.
> 
> 1) do you know the OM?
> 2) is the OM friends with the best friend or former male coworker?
> 3) are you sure this affair is over?
> 4) if OM is friends with the two affair enablers, is your wife still conversing through them with OM?
> 5) if she worked with OM, do they still work together?
> 
> To be direct and honest cowboy, I believe these two friends remain in her life as a connection to OM. I truly hope I'm wrong, but I would stay vigilant at the least.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We can PM if you'd prefer, I've no issue answering here.

1. I know who he is and have spoken with him on the phone but don't know him personally. My wife knew him from HS and just after, 18-19 years old range.

2. OM is friends with my wife's best friend, they used to communicate through the best friend after the 2nd or 3rd time I caught on. The former male coworker doesn't know OM at all.

3. I'm fairly certain they've no contact for 2-3 years, since the end of 2013. The last time they were communicating thru my wife's work email so I don't know for sure.

4. This would only be relevant thru her best friend. I don't think so but don't know for sure. Any things possible.

5. Wife & OM never worked together. Wife does work with male friend who supported her affair once per month for 4 hours.

Best friend still could be the conduit but I don't believe so.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

Cowboy2 said:


> We can PM if you'd prefer, I've no issue answering here.
> 
> 1. I know who he is and have spoken with him on the phone but don't know him personally. My wife knew him from HS and just after, 18-19 years old range.
> 
> 2. OM is friends with my wife's best friend, they used to communicate through the best friend after the 2nd or 3rd time I caught on. The former male coworker doesn't know OM at all.
> 
> 3. I'm fairly certain they've no contact for 2-3 years, since the end of 2013. The last time they were communicating thru my wife's work email so I don't know for sure.
> 
> 4. This would only be relevant thru her best friend. I don't think so but don't know for sure. Any things possible.
> 
> 5. Wife & OM never worked together. Wife does work with male friend who supported her affair once per month for 4 hours.
> 
> Best friend still could be the conduit but I don't believe so.


 Neither are friends of the marriage and must go. The co-worker is likely angling to be the next in line with your wife after the OM is out of the picture for good.


----------



## LosingHim

Cowboy, I've pmd you some details but what I left out (not intentionally, I've just been through my story here and I forget not everyone knows) is that we became "friends" with my OM and his wife again about a year after I told my husband it was just a kiss. We remained friends with them after that for about 2 years.

I came clean the first week of October. As recently as early September, OM was at my house hanging out with a group of friends that he had told the whole story too. (I was unaware at the time they knew). 

We were sitting by the pool and one of the friends wives was eating a chipotle burrito that was huge. One of the guys said something along the lines of "sheesh, she takes it like a champ, like she's giving head and can't wait to grab the balls". My OM said "I know someone who does that" and made a funny face, all the guys started laughing. My husband was off in the pool with the kids so he didn't hear it. At the time, I didn't realize what he was saying a) because I never grabbed his balls b) because the whole thing lasted less than a minute c) I had been drinking and it kind of went over my head

Thinking back now, that scum was BRAGGING about what had happened and trying to look cool to the guys he had told all while smiling in my husbands face. 

I hate that it took me so long to realize how toxic my friends were. You can bet they've talked and joked about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sokillme

Cowboy2 said:


> I'm not insecure at all. I don't care that much, that probably speaks to my level of investment in the marriage anymore.
> 
> I only get an emotional trigger every once in a while. We watched an episode of Black Mirror about cheating like 6-8 months ago. Watching the wife gaslight her husband and deny everything her husband asked until he showed her evidence piece by piece through multiple conversation was like whoa, been there, felt that surreal feeling.


So it sounds like you stopped your emotional triggers by killing most of the emotional investment in your wife and marriage. This is the life you want to live? You may end up one of those years later guys who finally snaps out of it and wants a better life. It would be a shame to waste years though.

There are many woman out there who you can be whole heartily fully invested in. And they didn't lie to you and F someone else. Yes I said F, that's want is was don't couch it.


----------



## sokillme

LosingHim said:


> Cowboy, I've pmd you some details but what I left out (not intentionally, I've just been through my story here and I forget not everyone knows) is that we became "friends" with my OM and his wife again about a year after I told my husband it was just a kiss. We remained friends with them after that for about 2 years.
> 
> I came clean the first week of October. As recently as early September, OM was at my house hanging out with a group of friends that he had told the whole story too. (I was unaware at the time they knew).
> 
> We were sitting by the pool and one of the friends wives was eating a chipotle burrito that was huge. One of the guys said something along the lines of "sheesh, she takes it like a champ, like she's giving head and can't wait to grab the balls". My OM said "I know someone who does that" and made a funny face, all the guys started laughing. My husband was off in the pool with the kids so he didn't hear it. At the time, I didn't realize what he was saying a) because I never grabbed his balls b) because the whole thing lasted less than a minute c) I had been drinking and it kind of went over my head
> 
> Thinking back now, that scum was BRAGGING about what had happened and trying to look cool to the guys he had told all while smiling in my husbands face.
> 
> I hate that it took me so long to realize how toxic my friends were. You can bet they've talked and joked about it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Has you husband gone and punched that assh_le. I would have. No warning just bam. So you were a notch on his trophy belt. Nice. You should go punch him. Or sue him for emotional distress.


----------



## bigfoot

Maybe I missed it, but how exactly were these people able to support the affair? I understood it to be an EA that was perpetuated via email. Never went physical, supposedly. They worked at different places. Was she telling these folks that she was involved with another guy and keeping them abreast of their communications?

Still, you have posted the emails. You have claimed that you really don't have a lot invested in the marriage. I am not sure why you stay? I don't mean leave because she is a cheater and that'll show her. Instead, I mean that at the end of the day, the result of everything that has happened is that this marriage is not worth keeping.

I often say that marriage and divorce are not rewards or punishments. They are results. Infidelity, abuse, and a whole lot of things also produce results. It seems that if you don't care, and don't have a lot invested in the marriage, a new result needs to be reached.


----------



## sokillme

bigfoot said:


> Maybe I missed it, but how exactly were these people able to support the affair? I understood it to be an EA that was perpetuated via email. Never went physical, supposedly. They worked at different places. Was she telling these folks that she was involved with another guy and keeping them abreast of their communications?
> 
> Still, you have posted the emails. You have claimed that you really don't have a lot invested in the marriage. I am not sure why you stay? I don't mean leave because she is a cheater and that'll show her. Instead, I mean that at the end of the day, the result of everything that has happened is that this marriage is not worth keeping.
> 
> I often say that marriage and divorce are not rewards or punishments. They are results. Infidelity, abuse, and a whole lot of things also produce results. It seems that if you don't care, and don't have a lot invested in the marriage, a new result needs to be reached.


The word is consequences.


----------



## LosingHim

sokillme said:


> Has you husband gone and punched that assh_le. I would have. No warning just bam. So you were a notch on his trophy belt. Nice. You should go punch him. Or sue him for emotional distress.


He has not. I honestly wish he would. Id like to. He still thinks my husband and him are friends. He still texts him and invites him places. Said he's done a good enough job of showing he's still a good friend and can be trusted again. 

But yet when I told him I had come clean to my husband, he asked me why and still hasn't told his wife the whole story. 

He's a pos in the first degree. Yay me for being the scum that couldn't see it when I needed to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 2ntnuf

And, the main reason for those pos to go after a married woman is:

"Thinking back now, that scum was BRAGGING about what had happened and trying to look cool to the guys he had told all while smiling in my husbands face."

--------------------------------------------------------------


In my simple mind, it's your responsibility to do "whatever", not your husband's job to go punch him out. Though, if he is that stupid to keep those folks as friends, he may not be worth keeping. 

And there is the perspective from those who won't say what they are thinking. 

This wasn't meant to stir trouble, but honestly to provide C2 with some outside perspective...and maybe you too, LH? Sounds like you both have some major issues to work through still.


----------



## sokillme

LosingHim said:


> He has not. I honestly wish he would. Id like to. He still thinks my husband and him are friends. He still texts him and invites him places. Said he's done a good enough job of showing he's still a good friend and can be trusted again.
> 
> But yet when I told him I had come clean to my husband, he asked me why and still hasn't told his wife the whole story.
> 
> He's a pos in the first degree. Yay me for being the scum that couldn't see it when I needed to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why does it matter if you saw he was a pos or not, you should not have been flirting or whatever you were doing with him that led up to the encounter (if I remember correctly he kind of forced your hand at that point)even if he was the greatest man alive. You are putting to much stock in him tricking you. 

His wife doesn't know and you didn't tell her? :surprise:

Does your husband know the burrito story?

Look I may be able to be around him too, not friends though. After I kicked his ass or at least tried to. 

This just makes me sad


----------



## Cowboy2

bigfoot said:


> Still, you have posted the emails. You have claimed that you really don't have a lot invested in the marriage. I am not sure why you stay? I don't mean leave because she is a cheater and that'll show her. Instead, I mean that at the end of the day, the result of everything that has happened is that this marriage is not worth keeping.
> 
> I often say that marriage and divorce are not rewards or punishments. They are results. Infidelity, abuse, and a whole lot of things also produce results. It seems that if you don't care, and don't have a lot invested in the marriage, a new result needs to be reached.


This is exactly where I'm at right now. As a result of everything that has happened and my growing realization at the low level of engagement and fulfillment I have in the marriage......why stay?


----------



## sokillme

2ntnuf said:


> And, the main reason for those pos to go after a married woman is:
> 
> "Thinking back now, that scum was BRAGGING about what had happened and trying to look cool to the guys he had told all while smiling in my husbands face."
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> In my simple mind, it's your responsibility to do "whatever", not your husband's job to go punch him out. Though, if he is that stupid to keep those folks as friends, he may not be worth keeping.
> 
> And there is the perspective from those who won't say what they are thinking.
> 
> This wasn't meant to stir trouble, but honestly to provide C2 with some outside perspective...and maybe you too, LH? Sounds like you both have some major issues to work through still.


Men like him go for married woman because it is an incredible ego boost. It has nothing to do with the woman as a person just as an achievement. Absolutely nothing at all. This is why they can move on so quickly. They get their self worth from F***ing woman. (Yes it is just plain old F***ing). They have no concept of emotional bonding. Or maybe they are emotional bonded to someone else. 

The whole thing is a big bate and switch. It's a con game. Give some nice ego boosting and get to have some sex. "You are the most beautiful woman I have ever met. What we have no one else has ever had. Your husband takes you for granted, if only I could be with you." Meanwhile the husband is helping to pay for the roof on her head, and probably said some of the same stuff, but he really meant it. Then con-man gets some sex and he gets do it with with his friends wife. He thinks I am so much better then him I got his wife to betray him for me. I can put that POA my wall and show my friends sometimes to let them know how great I am. That sounds very crude but that is HIS mindset. 

This guy is who these woman give up someone who loves them for. Most woman who fall for guys like this never had a true male role model. A father who told her about guys like this. Who showed her that a true man shows love by actions. She doesn't understand a mans true nature. What a man thinks is proving his love to her. Hence Mr. sliver tongue is the man.


----------



## sokillme

Cowboy2 said:


> This is exactly where I'm at right now. As a result of everything that has happened and my growing realization at the low level of engagement and fulfillment I have in the marriage......why stay?


Only thing that is changing right now is your age.


----------



## Thor

Cowboy2 said:


> This is exactly where I'm at right now. As a result of everything that has happened and my growing realization at the low level of engagement and fulfillment I have in the marriage......why stay?


So what is keeping you from leaving?


----------



## larry.gray

Cowboy:

I suggest you go read this whole thread. A bit lengthy but well worth the read.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/79609-successful-rugsweep.html

If you're unable to convince your wife how to do what she needs to do to heal you, this is your future.


----------



## MattMatt

@Cowboy2 Leave your marriage if that is what will work for *[I ]you[/I]*.

However, you should *not* leave your marriage because that is what worked for someone else.


----------



## NoChoice

OP,
It is very evident after 10 pages that you are now aware that you are not reconciling. In the title of this thread you are describing cads and villains, not friends. If your wife were truly remorseful she would clearly see that her "friend" was actually the enemy. Friends don't let friends drive drunk but they "have their backs" as they do other things that are just as damaging to their life?? Where is the difference? If your wife felt true remorse SHE would disassociate herself from these enablers for her own cleansing and for yours.

You mentioned that your wife never had a "drop to her knees begging forgiveness" moment and without that her spirit, compartment or whatever word you choose to use is not broken. In her mind she has gotten away with murder, murder of the marriage and she feels no crippling, debilitating agony over this? Do you seriously see this as contrition?

After all that has been written you now know that these are not friends. You now know that you are not in reconciliation. You now know that this will happen again without true remorse. You now know that your wife does not feel true remorse. Armed with this knowledge all that remains is for you to decide which path your life will take based on what you can accept and live with. You must decide for yourself and for your children and reap the consequences. It is up to you now.


----------



## sokillme

MattMatt said:


> @Cowboy2 Leave you marriage if that is what will work for *you*.
> 
> However, you should *not* leave your marriage because that is what worked for someone else.


You shouldn't stay in your marriage because it worked for someone else either. Just saying. 0


----------



## ricky15100

Cowboy2 said:


> I want to address this as it gives me something to think about in a new way. I would say during her A she was in a very strange place. She has had depression to varying levels for many years. She has taken anti-depressants for a few years now and it's made a big difference. She was incredible self-involved during this time. She doesn't see her best friend in a way that she promoted the affair. She sees her best friend as someone that will have her back (and the other way around) no matter what.
> 
> I would say my wife did not do the full on drop to her knees type remorse mode. She knows what she did was incredibly wrong and hurtful and has made and continues to make ongoing strong effort in rebuilding the marriage. She knows she destroyed trust on a deep level and that full trust will never be restored. It's not possible after the person you feel should be there for you through thick and thin gaslights you to your face in order to get another fix.


Having someone's back doesn't mean supporting their actions if they conflict with your moral code, having someone's back means looking out for their best interests, guiding and advising. Now if that advice means hurting someone else, then they are toxic by nature. For example ; if her friend had advised her against the affair, but your wife did it anyway, and the friend kept her secret, while disapproving of her actions, I think that is forgivable.

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk


----------



## LosingHim

sokillme said:


> Why does it matter if you saw he was a pos or not, you should not have been flirting or whatever you were doing with him that led up to the encounter (if I remember correctly he kind of forced your hand at that point)even if he was the greatest man alive. You are putting to much stock in him tricking you.
> 
> His wife doesn't know and you didn't tell her? :surprise:
> 
> Does your husband know the burrito story?
> 
> Look I may be able to be around him too, not friends though. After I kicked his ass or at least tried to.
> 
> This just makes me sad


No, I'm mad at myself for not seeing what he was trying to do. I'm mad at myself for thinking he was a friend for so long. I'm mad at myself for being too weak to not fall into the smooth words and instead shutting it down before I made the biggest mistake of my life. But that anger extends to him being a pos because he also took our "friendship" and the fact that I trusted him as a friend and pushing something else.

I say he deserves to be knocked out because he's a serial cheat who does whatever he wants and gets away with it because his wife won't leave him. Please understand I think I'm a pos too. It takes two.

My husband doesn't know the burrito story. He doesn't want to discuss what happened anymore. Which worries me. He's trying to sweep it under the rug like it didn't happen. But the only thing I know to do is keep telling him that if he has anymore questions I will answer them. If he wants anymore from me, I'll tell him. But the times I've tried to bring it up, he's gotten angry and told me to let it go.

No, his wife doesn't know. I have wanted to tell her, and I've told my husband as much. He doesn't want me exposed. She would expose.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cowboy2

larry.gray said:


> Cowboy:
> 
> I suggest you go read this whole thread. A bit lengthy but well worth the read.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/79609-successful-rugsweep.html
> 
> If you're unable to convince your wife how to do what she needs to do to heal you, this is your future.


Thanks for this. I've started reading it and will work my way through as I find time.

One of the biggest pain points for me is the way I was emotionally manipulated during this. Just a few weeks ago she made a comment about how our marriage was in a crappy place back the. And that's what she told me them. But it wasn't any different than the majority of our marriage. That's just one example and there are many. 

A large part is who emotionally manipulates the person they share their life with to that degree and do I want to grow old with that person?


----------



## LosingHim

My marriage was in a crappy place when I did what I did too. But that's not an EXCUSE. If the marriage was in a crappy place, she could have left. Just as I could have left. 

When you're hurting the answer is not to hurt someone else in return. The answer is to either a) remove yourself from the hurtful situation b) commit to making the hurtful situation better. 

If she is still saying that to you, she does not fully understand her actions. She is still placing the blame on you.

I fully believe that the reconciliations that work are the ones where both parties own their sh*t and the ways they contributed to a poor marriage and try to change those ways. Having said that, anything you did did not contribute to the affair - though it's easy as a wayward to say those things did. The only thing the betrayeds bad points contributed to were the unhappiness of the other spouse, but not the affair.

My husband is a distant, non affectionate man. He ignored me a lot, never really compliments me, chose his friends over me, always put his needs first. Had a 10 year ea with his ex girlfriend. Those things all contributed to my unhappiness. But they didn't contribute to my ons. I should have left or given him an ultimatum that things had to change or I WOULD leave. Instead, I CHOSE to screw around with his best friend to make myself feel better in the moment. THAT part is on me.

Going forward, the only choice I have is to try to be a better woman and hope that he continues trying to be a better man. And if either one of us is not holding up our end of the deal, then we walk, we don't cheat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thor

LosingHim said:


> I say he deserves to be knocked out because he's a serial cheat who does whatever he wants and gets away with it because his wife won't leave him. Please understand I think I'm a pos too. It takes two.


LH, you're one of the very few cheaters I have respect for, and I have a _lot_ of respect for you. What you did was terrible, but you are not a pos. I truly mean that. You would be a pos if you were laughing at your husband behind his back today. You would be a pos if you were gaslighting him and keeping secrets from him when he was asking you for answers.

We all make mistakes, but what ultimately defines our character is what we do to correct it.



LosingHim said:


> My husband doesn't know the burrito story. He doesn't want to discuss what happened anymore. Which worries me. He's trying to sweep it under the rug like it didn't happen. But the only thing I know to do is keep telling him that if he has anymore questions I will answer them. If he wants anymore from me, I'll tell him. But the times I've tried to bring it up, he's gotten angry and told me to let it go.
> 
> No, his wife doesn't know. I have wanted to tell her, and I've told my husband as much. He doesn't want me exposed. She would expose.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't know that you should go out of your way to force him to hear the burrito story. But dang, it sure triggers me having been in that kind of situation. I'm sure there is much I don't know still, and am thought of as the idiot in the corner by many who do know.

Although for me at this point it doesn't matter, as we are divorcing.

Still, you have offered to tell your husband more, and you have tried to tell him more. He has made it clear he doesn't want to know. Since he doesn't want to know, I think you would be doing the right thing to not spring it on him.

As long as those people are no longer within either of your circles. If they are, they have to be cut out. From my perspective, I don't care what people think if I have no relationship with them.

You can kick yourself for what you did, but be sure to give yourself full credit for the positive things you've done, too.


----------



## 2ntnuf

LosingHim said:


> My marriage was in a crappy place when I did what I did too. But that's not an EXCUSE. If the marriage was in a crappy place, she could have left. Just as I could have left.
> 
> When you're hurting the answer is not to hurt someone else in return. The answer is to either a) remove yourself from the hurtful situation b) commit to making the hurtful situation better.
> 
> If she is still saying that to you, she does not fully understand her actions. She is still placing the blame on you.
> 
> I fully believe that the reconciliations that work are the ones where both parties own their sh*t and the ways they contributed to a poor marriage and try to change those ways. Having said that, anything you did did not contribute to the affair - though it's easy as a wayward to say those things did. The only thing the betrayeds bad points contributed to were the unhappiness of the other spouse, but not the affair.
> 
> My husband is a distant, non affectionate man. He ignored me a lot, never really compliments me, chose his friends over me, always put his needs first. Had a 10 year ea with his ex girlfriend. Those things all contributed to my unhappiness. But they didn't contribute to my ons. I should have left or given him an ultimatum that things had to change or I WOULD leave. Instead, I CHOSE to screw around with his best friend to make myself feel better in the moment. THAT part is on me.
> 
> Going forward, the only choice I have is to try to be a better woman and hope that he continues trying to be a better man. And if either one of us is not holding up our end of the deal, then we walk, we don't cheat.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Seems like your ONS was revenge for his lack of caring about your feelings and his commitment to you being cherished? 

Have you addressed those anger issues with a counselor? 

Also, your husband may be incapable of hearing and processing all of that without a melt down. 

If you don't want a man who is not able to talk with you, I think you owe it to yourselves to discuss this with a psychologist and attempt to make some changes. The only change that might bring you some satisfaction could be divorce. 

Of course, he just might not give a crap any more. That seems very hurtful and distant. It seems like punishment. 

These are the issues with reconciliation. Many don't make it, but still go through hell, both BS and WS.


----------



## LosingHim

2ntnuf said:


> Seems like your ONS was revenge for his lack of caring about your feelings and his commitment to you being cherished?
> 
> Have you addressed those anger issues with a counselor?
> 
> Also, your husband may be incapable of hearing and processing all of that without a melt down.
> 
> If you don't want a man who is not able to talk with you, I think you owe it to yourselves to discuss this with a psychologist and attempt to make some changes. The only change that might bring you some satisfaction could be divorce.
> 
> Of course, he just might not give a crap any more. That seems very hurtful and distant. It seems like punishment.
> 
> These are the issues with reconciliation. Many don't make it, but still go through hell, both BS and WS.


I wouldn't say it was revenge because it was not planned. I never had it in my head that since I was - what some people call - neglected that I would cheat on him to get back at him.

It was more of getting caught up in the moment. I had realized that his distance, his lack of affection, etc had been wearing on me. That I needed it badly. What I didn't realize until I was in the moment was how badly I'd craved affection, compliments, etc. So when OM started handing them out, I was eating it up like candy. In that moment, all that mattered to me was feeling attractive, worthy, desirable, worth something. It was like it was a drug and I just kept going back for another hit. I didn't think about anything else but those good feelings I felt I went without for too long.

That does not make it my husbands fault. Truth is Id said to him for a long time I needed them and he didn't provide them. I'm still telling him I need them and he's providing about 30% of what I need. My husband has never told me I'm beautiful. He rarely grabs me and just hugs me. He's gone back to not cuddling with me at night. We had a party last night and I may as well have not even been here. But on the other hand, he's finally given up the ex gf, were communicating better, he will do things for me like wash my car, I mentioned wanting moonshine and he got it for me, etc. But the affection and admiration I've always craved still isn't there. I don't know if the changes he's making or I'm making will be enough to keep us together. Only time will tell.

He refuses marriage counseling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 2ntnuf

So, you felt desire for intimacy, but you didn't respond until it was initiated, and unfortunately, the person initiating was someone other than your husband? At that point, you let yourself be seduced to feel like you were pretty, sexy, and desirable?

What is his reason for refusing marriage counseling? 

So, basically, you are 70% dissatisfied with your marriage/relationship with your husband and vulnerable to another affair? That's quite a bit of pressure to be under. Seems like, if your reasons were that you were in a weakened state due to a lack of nurturing and love by your husband, you are there again and maybe have never really moved forward to a more satisfying life with your husband?

Tough questions, I know. Don't feel compelled to answer. I'm just trying to understand a bit more deeply than I do already. I know it's your life and not able to be used as a general rule, but there are similarities to many other instances of infidelity.

Neither am I trying to embarrass or shame you. I don't feel any contempt for you and I hope I am not being insolent. I just feel strong curiosity and a desire to learn through others.


----------



## LosingHim

2ntnuf said:


> So, you felt desire for intimacy, but you didn't respond until it was initiated, and unfortunately, the person initiating was someone other than your husband? At that point, you let yourself be seduced to feel like you were pretty, sexy, and desirable?
> 
> What is his reason for refusing marriage counseling?
> 
> So, basically, you are 70% dissatisfied with your marriage/relationship with your husband and vulnerable to another affair? That's quite a bit of pressure to be under. Seems like, if your reasons were that you were in a weakened state due to a lack of nurturing and love by your husband, you are there again and maybe have never really moved forward to a more satisfying life with your husband?
> 
> Tough questions, I know. Don't feel compelled to answer. I'm just trying to understand a bit more deeply than I do already. I know it's your life and not able to be used as a general rule, but there are similarities to many other instances of infidelity.
> 
> Neither am I trying to embarrass or shame you. I don't feel any contempt for you and I hope I am not being insolent. I just feel strong curiosity and a desire to learn through others.


I am not vulnerable to another affair. Id rather die than do that again. In addition to my own feelings of failure and disdain for myself, I now have a huge disdain for people who cheat. Hypocritical? Probably. I've just seen the pain I've caused him and the pain I've caused myself and I couldn't do it again.

Yes, I'd imagine I did what I did in order to feel sexy, desirable, wanted. Low self esteem, never really feeling good enough for anyone probably has sonething to do with that. But I won't put myself in that position again.

I wouldn't say I'm 70% disatisfied with my marriage. I'm just trying to heal. I still trigger over his ea, I still feel like scum for what I did. I still wonder if it will work and ping pong between wanting it to work and thinking it might be best if it doesn't. I just know I don't want to hurt anyone ever again.

As far as counseling, he thinks it's a joke. Says he doesn't need anyone else to tell him how to fix things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 2ntnuf

LosingHim said:


> I am not vulnerable to another affair. Id rather die than do that again. In addition to my own feelings of failure and disdain for myself, I now have a huge disdain for people who cheat. Hypocritical? Probably. I've just seen the pain I've caused him and the pain I've caused myself and I couldn't do it again.
> 
> Yes, I'd imagine I did what I did in order to feel sexy, desirable, wanted. Low self esteem, never really feeling good enough for anyone probably has sonething to do with that. But I won't put myself in that position again.
> 
> I wouldn't say I'm 70% disatisfied with my marriage. I'm just trying to heal. I still trigger over his ea, I still feel like scum for what I did. I still wonder if it will work and ping pong between wanting it to work and thinking it might be best if it doesn't. I just know I don't want to hurt anyone ever again.
> 
> As far as counseling, he thinks it's a joke. Says he doesn't need anyone else to tell him how to fix things.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think it's hypocritical when you are committed to a better you.

I think you need to work on your self-esteem. You are very much appreciated here, and by me, too. So, get the help to feel better, whether that is IC or whatever, while refusing to ever hurt another that way, without feeling like a sh*t. You are not a sh*t. It's time to forgive yourself, but learn the lesson. I think you are doing very well.

You are valuable. Don't think you are not. 

Sounds like he is a stubborn strong personality. Maybe bitterness has caused that, or something else? Don't know.

Sorry about the triggering. I always thought that the pain my ex caused me would make me more steadfast in my opinion about infidelity. I'm not so sure it did. It may have made me realize I can get away with many things for some time, and by the time they are found out, the impact of the consequences are lessened, while my own actions might be more about self-preservation and therefore understandable.

Odd thoughts, aren't they?


----------



## 2asdf2

LosingHim said:


> No, I'm mad at myself for not seeing what he was trying to do. I'm mad at myself for thinking he was a friend for so long. I'm mad at myself for being too weak to not fall into the smooth words and instead shutting it down before I made the biggest mistake of my life. But that anger extends to him being a pos because he also took our "friendship" and the fact that I trusted him as a friend and pushing something else.
> 
> I say he deserves to be knocked out because he's a serial cheat who does whatever he wants and gets away with it because his wife won't leave him. Please understand I think I'm a pos too. It takes two.
> 
> *My husband doesn't know the burrito story. He doesn't want to discuss what happened anymore.* Which worries me. He's trying to sweep it under the rug like it didn't happen. But the only thing I know to do is keep telling him that if he has anymore questions I will answer them. If he wants anymore from me, I'll tell him. But the times I've tried to bring it up, he's gotten angry and told me to let it go.
> 
> No, his wife doesn't know. I have wanted to tell her, and I've told my husband as much. He doesn't want me exposed. She would expose.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Unfortunately the burrito story is not about what happened then, but about what is happening now.

That SOB is having fun at your expense. He has done it in front of you once, and probably behind your and J's back many times.

Your husband should know what he is doing.

Just like Cowboy2 needed to cut the "Affair Helpers and CoHorts" out of his marriage, you need to cut this POS out of yours.


----------



## Cowboy2

ricky15100 said:


> Having someone's back doesn't mean supporting their actions if they conflict with your moral code, having someone's back means looking out for their best interests, guiding and advising. Now if that advice means hurting someone else, then they are toxic by nature. For example ; if her friend had advised her against the affair, but your wife did it anyway, and the friend kept her secret, while disapproving of her actions, I think that is forgivable.
> 
> Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk


I agree here, especially the if the advice is hurting someone else, then that person is toxic. When you toss is that my wife painted the picture of this horrible lonely marriage she was in I'm guessing the best friend told herself she was "helping" my wife. She was the go between in their conversations at times plus was with my wife numerous times when they met up.

Early into the affair I point blank asked the best friend what was the deal worth POSOM. She said "He's trying to steal your wife". She knew what she was doing and continued to help.


----------



## LosingHim

2asdf2 said:


> Unfortunately the burrito story is not about what happened then, but about what is happening now.
> 
> That SOB is having fun at your expense. He has done it in front of you once, and probably behind your and J's back many times.
> 
> Your husband should know what he is doing.
> 
> Just like Cowboy2 needed to cut the "Affair Helpers and CoHorts" out of his marriage, you need to cut this POS out of yours.


He has been cut out. This comment was made last September, early in the month. I sent him a NC letter in late October/early November. I have not spoken to him since. We’ve had 2 parties this summer so far, he has not been invited. He’s been deleted from social media, etc. My husband is clear I don’t want him around and my husband doesn’t want him around either. My husband is the one that’s planned the last two parties and he hasn’t invited him. The ONLY issue that remains as far as he is concerned is that he lives one road over and our kids go to school together. There is a chance that we will run into him at the school. But thankfully, our daughter is on her last year at that school before she moves to the next school and their son will be at that school for 2 more years after this school year. Praying we don’t run into him there and that if he do, he has enough sense not to try to talk to us. But, he’s an idiot so he probably will. 

I’ve sent the NC as I said, my husband just ignores him. It may take my husband saying to him to leave him alone before he stops. He’ll text my husband and ask him to come over and watch an Indians game or hang out and talk, my husband always ignores the texts and doesn’t answer at all, but the idiot can’t seem to get the hint.


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## ricky15100

Cowboy2 said:


> I agree here, especially the if the advice is hurting someone else, then that person is toxic. When you toss is that my wife painted the picture of this horrible lonely marriage she was in I'm guessing the best friend told herself she was "helping" my wife. She was the go between in their conversations at times plus was with my wife numerous times when they met up.
> 
> Early into the affair I point blank asked the best friend what was the deal worth POSOM. She said "He's trying to steal your wife". She knew what she was doing and continued to help.


Then the friend should have advised that she divorce or at least seek marriage counselling, not jump in bed with another man

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk


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## MyRevelation

Cowboy2 said:


> We can PM if you'd prefer, I've no issue answering here.
> 
> 1. I know who he is and have spoken with him on the phone but don't know him personally. My wife knew him from HS and just after, 18-19 years old range.
> 
> 2. OM is friends with my wife's best friend, they used to communicate through the best friend after the 2nd or 3rd time I caught on. The former male coworker doesn't know OM at all.
> 
> 3. I'm fairly certain they've no contact for 2-3 years, since the end of 2013. The last time they were communicating thru my wife's work email so I don't know for sure.
> 
> 4. This would only be relevant thru her best friend. I don't think so but don't know for sure. Any things possible.
> 
> 5. Wife & OM never worked together. Wife does work with male friend who supported her affair once per month for 4 hours.
> 
> Best friend still could be the conduit but I don't believe so.


Cowboy,

My W had 3 friends that knew of her A. 1 was a coworker and the other 2 were 20+ year personal friends and none of them were as invested in her A as your WW's 2 friends mentioned above. Today, NONE of them are in our lives any longer and haven't been since shortly after D-Day.

The fallout from the holiday party gives you the perfect opportunity to establish a boundary with your WW ... "Inviting these 2 friends to our holiday party has caused me to reevaluate where I really stand on them being in either of our lives going forward. It is now clear to me that through their past actions, they are an impediment to our successful R, and I'd like to request you sever your relationships with them permanently. We can discuss how best to handle each situation, but in the end, for us to continue, both of them have to go."

... and then sit back and watch & listen closely to how she responds. My guess is you will find out very quickly whether you have anything worth R'ing with or not.


----------



## Evinrude58

It should not be a request.
These "friends" who supported an affair, regardless of how bad or good your marriage was, are people of low moral character. I refer to them as "black clouds-- if you're around them, you're gonna get rained on". 
I don't get near black clouds-- that's non-negotiable. Me ex liked to hang around those types. She's my ex, now......

As to "Losing Him" and her guilt over what she did.......
You really need to put that behind you and forgive yourself. You made a mistake. But I think that mistake and the guilt over it is blinding you to mistreatment by others.
God always forgives people who are truly repentant. I believe you are. Forgive yourself. Put it behind you.
It's not good for you to keep drowning yourself in the guilt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## weightlifter

They would NOT be welcome at my house ever.


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## BetrayedDad

Cowboy2 said:


> The husband was one of my wife's confidants during the affair.


You sure all they did was talk? Once a cheat always a cheat. 



Cowboy2 said:


> I'd enjoy hearing others thoughts and experience in this.


Invite into your home? Are you insane? This guy is TOXIC. This friendship needs to END immediately. At best he's a beta orbiter looking to get into your wife's pants, at worst he already has, multiple times.

I'd tell your 'wife', "That A-hole was an accomplice to your immoral behavior, if I find out he so much as sends you a Xmas card, I'll be serving you divorce papers. It ME or HIM, choose NOW." If she even hesitates, then your reconciliation is a total sham.


----------



## Cowboy2

Hey BetrayedDad, you've got quite the strong opinion on this. Appreciate your input.

Any experience you can share?


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## Clay2013

BetrayedDad said:


> I'd tell your 'wife', "That A-hole was an accomplice to your immoral behavior, if I find out he so much as sends you a Xmas card, I'll be serving you divorce papers. It ME or HIM, choose NOW." If she even hesitates, then your reconciliation is a total sham.


I think she already agreed that he would not be welcome there anymore. I would let him come over with his wife. I would then sit them all in my house with my wife and bring all the evidence with of the affair up including how her husband supported and was probably looking to hookup with my wife. I would be willing to bet after I was done I would have resolved all the issues in one simple discussion. Friends would never want to come over again. Wife would be packing her bags and staying with family for a while. 

Who needs enemies with friends like that around. 

C


----------



## BetrayedDad

Cowboy2 said:


> Hey BetrayedDad, you've got quite the strong opinion on this. Appreciate your input.
> 
> Any experience you can share?


Here's the link: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/107090-best-way-divorce-my-wife.html 

Everything you ever wanted to know about me.

You seem like you've made progress stating up for yourself.

You need to get tougher man. She needs to do the heavy lifting.

That's including cutting off ANYONE who helped facilitate the pain she inflicted on you.

This is NON-NEGOTIABLE. I'd be outraged if that turd walked through my front door.


----------



## Cowboy2

MyRevelation said:


> Cowboy,
> 
> My W had 3 friends that knew of her A. 1 was a coworker and the other 2 were 20+ year personal friends and none of them were as invested in her A as your WW's 2 friends mentioned above. Today, NONE of them are in our lives any longer and haven't been since shortly after D-Day.
> 
> The fallout from the holiday party gives you the perfect opportunity to establish a boundary with your WW ... "Inviting these 2 friends to our holiday party has caused me to reevaluate where I really stand on them being in either of our lives going forward. It is now clear to me that through their past actions, they are an impediment to our successful R, and I'd like to request you sever your relationships with them permanently. We can discuss how best to handle each situation, but in the end, for us to continue, both of them have to go."
> 
> ... and then sit back and watch & listen closely to how she responds. My guess is you will find out very quickly whether you have anything worth R'ing with or not.


You read my mind, this is exactly what I was thinking.

I'm also telling her I need to hear the time line of the affair and have any/all questions answered in a manner that I feel is real. Time to move this along full tilt one way or the other.


----------



## LosingHim

Best of luck to you Cowboy. You deserve answers, the truth and some peace. I hope it works out for the best for you.

I didn't mean to thread jack your post, but i hope at least some of what I shared helps to open your eyes to what the "friends of the affair" contribute to the state of your marriage.

I've been wear you're sitting, I was just in your wife's shoes. Don't be my husband and rug sweep it and just let it go. It will fester until you can't stand it anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cowboy2

LosingHim said:


> Best of luck to you Cowboy. You deserve answers, the truth and some peace. I hope it works out for the best for you.
> 
> I didn't mean to thread jack your post, but i hope at least some of what I shared helps to open your eyes to what the "friends of the affair" contribute to the state of your marriage.
> 
> I've been wear you're sitting, I was just in your wife's shoes. Don't be my husband and rug sweep it and just let it go. It will fester until you can't stand it anymore.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't worry about it, I appreciate your response and insight and experience.

I'm gonna confront the rest here soon. Not only the friends aspect who were confidantes sand promoters of the affair but also the rug sweeping aspects. She won't want to deal with it but tough s**t, it's way past time.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Cowboy2 said:


> also the rug sweeping aspects. She won't want to deal with it but tough s**t, it's way past time.


Got that right and if she won't "deal" with it, WALK AWAY.

You need to get over your fear of losing her if you want to save the relationship.


----------



## MattMatt

Might be worth looking for a counsellor with experience of dealing with post affair issues?


----------



## Cowboy2

BetrayedDad said:


> Cowboy2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> also the rug sweeping aspects. She won't want to deal with it but tough s**t, it's way past time.
> 
> 
> 
> Got that right and if she won't "deal" with it, WALK AWAY.
> 
> You need to get over your fear of losing her if you want to save the relationship.
Click to expand...

I don't particularly fear losing her. My bigger fear is breaking up my family. I know it's a 50/50 deal and logically if she doesn't want to confront or deal with it and divorce is the other options it's back on her but it still is what worries me most.


----------



## Steve1000

Cowboy2 said:


> I'd enjoy hearing others thoughts and experience in this. Thanks in advance and have great holiday.


That man would not be in my house. He risked any future invitations to your home by taking sides during your wife's affair.


----------



## ShootMePlz!

*My family and her family know of her affair. During it she told her mom that I was controlling and her mother did something I am still astounded by to this day*

What did your MIL do?


----------



## Cowboy2

ShootMePlz! said:


> *My family and her family know of her affair. During it she told her mom that I was controlling and her mother did something I am still astounded by to this day*
> 
> What did your MIL do?


Gave my wife a secret cell phone. Think the term is burner phone right? 

I was floored when I discovered it. When I confronted my MIL about it 2 years post fact she said it wasn't for my wife to continue her affair, it was because I was making my wife feel trapped by looking at her phone. Ya think? Part of how I was portrayed as so controlling I'm sure. 

Unsurprisingly the only texts and calls on the phone were to OM.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

I know the feeling....I was close to my parents-in-law...when W cheated they completely sided with her (which I understand, is their kid), but also completely ignored me and wouldnt even talk to me about it.....ever since I no longer feel close to them, I hardly speak to them and just out of courtesy and only if absolutely necessary.


----------



## Malaise

Cowboy2 said:


> Gave my wife a secret cell phone. Think the term is burner phone right?
> 
> I was floored when I discovered it. When I confronted my MIL about it 2 years post fact she said it wasn't for my wife to continue her affair, it was because I was making my wife feel trapped by looking at her phone. Ya think? Part of how I was portrayed as so controlling I'm sure.
> 
> *Unsurprisingly the only texts and calls on the phone were to OM*.


Does MIL know that? If so, what does she think about it?


----------



## farsidejunky

The more you reveal, the less I understand how you are still married.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## LosingHim

Cowboy2 said:


> Gave my wife a secret cell phone. Think the term is burner phone right?
> 
> I was floored when I discovered it. When I confronted my MIL about it 2 years post fact she said it wasn't for my wife to continue her affair, it was because I was making my wife feel trapped by looking at her phone. Ya think? Part of how I was portrayed as so controlling I'm sure.
> 
> Unsurprisingly the only texts and calls on the phone were to OM.


When I discovered 2 years ago that my husband was heavily texting his ex gf (1500+ texts in one month), I immediately told her husband. He and I conversed for a bit, comparing notes, trying to figure it all out. In the meantime, he suspended texting on her line on their cell phone. I got a message from him about a week later to look for a specific phone number on my phone bill. Her mom had bought her a burner phone and she was hiding it from him. So nice of these mother in laws to step in and help their children cheat. SMH.


----------



## sokillme

Cowboy2 said:


> Gave my wife a secret cell phone. Think the term is burner phone right?
> 
> I was floored when I discovered it. When I confronted my MIL about it 2 years post fact she said it wasn't for my wife to continue her affair, it was because I was making my wife feel trapped by looking at her phone. Ya think? Part of how I was portrayed as so controlling I'm sure.
> 
> Unsurprisingly the only texts and calls on the phone were to OM.


What is the benefit for you to stay again?


----------



## Cowboy2

Malaise said:


> Cowboy2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gave my wife a secret cell phone. Think the term is burner phone right?
> 
> I was floored when I discovered it. When I confronted my MIL about it 2 years post fact she said it wasn't for my wife to continue her affair, it was because I was making my wife feel trapped by looking at her phone. Ya think? Part of how I was portrayed as so controlling I'm sure.
> 
> *Unsurprisingly the only texts and calls on the phone were to OM*.
> 
> 
> 
> Does MIL know that? If so, what does she think about it?
Click to expand...

She knows. Response was "I didn't know she'd use it for that". Uhhhhh


----------



## Cowboy2

LosingHim said:


> Cowboy2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gave my wife a secret cell phone. Think the term is burner phone right?
> 
> I was floored when I discovered it. When I confronted my MIL about it 2 years post fact she said it wasn't for my wife to continue her affair, it was because I was making my wife feel trapped by looking at her phone. Ya think? Part of how I was portrayed as so controlling I'm sure.
> 
> Unsurprisingly the only texts and calls on the phone were to OM.
> 
> 
> 
> When I discovered 2 years ago that my husband was heavily texting his ex gf (1500+ texts in one month), I immediately told her husband. He and I conversed for a bit, comparing notes, trying to figure it all out. In the meantime, he suspended texting on her line on their cell phone. I got a message from him about a week later to look for a specific phone number on my phone bill. Her mom had bought her a burner phone and she was hiding it from him. So nice of these mother in laws to step in and help their children cheat. SMH.
Click to expand...

I know! I was completely floored. This goes to the other point about the best friend too.

During the affair I kept thinking why in the world would a mother or a best friend say "What in the h**l are you doing?!?!". Not help her! It's insane.

What was your MIL's reasoning?


----------



## Lostinthought61

Cowboy2 said:


> She knows. Response was "I didn't know she'd use it for that". Uhhhhh


at the point you shake your head, give her the finger and turn around


----------



## VladDracul

LosingHim said:


> So nice of these mother in laws to step in and help their children cheat. SMH.


There are any number of in laws that believe their kids could do a lot better spouse wise, and are more than willing to help make that happen.


----------



## LosingHim

Cowboy2 said:


> I know! I was completely floored. This goes to the other point about the best friend too.
> 
> During the affair I kept thinking why in the world would a mother or a best friend say "What in the h**l are you doing?!?!". Not help her! It's insane.
> 
> What was your MIL's reasoning?


This was my husbands ex gf’s mom that provided her with a burner phone to continue communicating with my husband. My mother in law is clueless about the whole thing.

When my husband and I were ‘separated’ from October to February, he was again talking to his ex gf about them possibly having a future together. When he decided to stay with me, her mom sent him a message telling him she was sad that he was going back to his marriage. She still sends him messages and comments on stuff on his facebook telling him she loves and misses him. It is not something that I’m comfortable with. My husband says that he just ignores her so therefore it shouldn’t upset me but it does.

Not only does my husbands ex gf want him back and posts all over twitter about it, but her mom sends him messages to the same effect. Therefore, her mom is an enemy to our marriage. Just one of many toxic people that need to go!


----------



## sokillme

LosingHim said:


> This was my husbands ex gf’s mom that provided her with a burner phone to continue communicating with my husband. My mother in law is clueless about the whole thing.
> 
> When my husband and I were ‘separated’ from October to February, he was again talking to his ex gf about them possibly having a future together. When he decided to stay with me, her mom sent him a message telling him she was sad that he was going back to his marriage. She still sends him messages and comments on stuff on his facebook telling him she loves and misses him. It is not something that I’m comfortable with. My husband says that he just ignores her so therefore it shouldn’t upset me but it does.
> 
> Not only does my husbands ex gf want him back and posts all over twitter about it, but her mom sends him messages to the same effect. Therefore, her mom is an enemy to our marriage. Just one of many toxic people that need to go!


Get rid of him and they all go away. Just saying. 0


----------



## LosingHim

sokillme said:


> Get rid of him and they all go away. Just saying. 0


I don't want HIM to go away. I just want THEM to go away. Ex gf is gone, she's just posting her 'poor me I got my heart broke by a married man because I'm a wh*re" all over social media but my H isn't talking to her anymore. The mom just keeps hanging on like a dingleberry that just won't let go.


----------



## Malaise

Cowboy2 said:


> She knows. Response was "I didn't know she'd use it for that". Uhhhhh


Another MIL helping her daughter in the affair and using the same excuse.

( Hantai's thread )


----------



## Anon1111

it seems your wife is an expert at creating a cheerleading section for her poor choices

a huge component of this must be her willingness to bad mouth you in order to portray herself as a sympathetic victim

you might consider requesting her to come clean to your extended family and social circle regarding what she's done and to "correct the record" regarding any lies she has told about you

consider that if you split up, individuals may go on the record about your fitness as a parent, etc. 

people may genuinely believe that you are controlling/abusive because that is what your wife has told them.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Cowboy2 said:


> Gave my wife a secret cell phone. Think the term is burner phone right?
> 
> I was floored when I discovered it. When I confronted my MIL about it 2 years post fact she said it wasn't for my wife to continue her affair, it was because I was making my wife feel trapped by looking at her phone. Ya think? Part of how I was portrayed as so controlling I'm sure.
> 
> Unsurprisingly the only texts and calls on the phone were to OM.


Sorry, I should have read further before I replied. My thoughts are for you to get a divorce and find happiness. No one is sorry. They believe they were entitled to do as they did. Maybe that's most WS', until reconciliation? I don't think your marriage is going to be reasonably safe.


----------



## bandit.45

Sounds like you have reached the limit of your patience Cowboy. That's good. Now have the courage to follow through with your promises to her. 

Your WW is either patently immoral and disrespectful...or just plain stupid. Which do you think she is?


----------



## LosingHim

What are your plans Cowboy?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cowboy2

Anon1111 said:


> it seems your wife is an expert at creating a cheerleading section for her poor choices
> 
> a huge component of this must be her willingness to bad mouth you in order to portray herself as a sympathetic victim
> 
> people may genuinely believe that you are controlling/abusive because that is what your wife has told them.


Yup, she definitely is. 

Early on in the affair I saw a message from the male friend/affair supporter that said "I feel so sorry for you that you don't get that at home! You deserve to be happy!".

At the time I was like what is he talking about? What isn't she getting? What's missing and what am I missing? Of course in hindsight it's easy to see she told she didn't get closeness or some other made up bulls**t. All part of creating the victim.


----------



## Malaise

You have a lot of house cleaning to do, Cowboy


----------



## Clay2013

Cowboy2 said:


> Yup, she definitely is.
> 
> Early on in the affair I saw a message from the male friend/affair supporter that said "I feel so sorry for you that you don't get that at home! You deserve to be happy!".
> 
> At the time I was like what is he talking about? What isn't she getting? What's missing and what am I missing? Of course in hindsight it's easy to see she told she didn't get closeness or some other made up bulls**t. All part of creating the victim.


You know you choose what you want in life and really what your really willing to put up with. Think about this that message was probably very powerful to her that day. It was supporting her and telling her its ok to look elsewhere. Yes your right that guy and anyone else who supported her needs to go but where does she really stand. If she is not looking at this things honestly and blocking these people on her own then you have to really ask the question. Are you on the road to recovery? Is she really remorseful or is she just pushing it aside because she is willing to settle. 

I stayed with my serial cheating exwife for several reasons. One was the fear of being alone. I also feared not having access to my kids. She continued to cheat and I continued to suffer. It really burned it in my head that I would rather be alone than spend one minute with someone that can even act remotely close to that. Now maybe I am broken now but the way I look at it is if my current wife now even acts shady or can't explain being gone or talking to some guy then I am gone. I don't need that evidence anymore. I just honestly don't care. Life is to short and I am not getting any younger. There are other women out there so why even waste another second with someone that will treat you so horribly. 

If your wife isn't giving you 110% of herself you probably should be asking why you should stay with her. Forget what her reasons are or what she is willing to do. What are you willing to put up with?

C


----------



## Cowboy2

LosingHim said:


> What are your plans Cowboy?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This morning I provided her a note(with the date so it's documented) before I left for work. I told her I'd had some things on my mind that needed to be addressed soon.

The note said in order to move forward and see if healing is possible I need 2 things. One was complete and total honestly from her regarding the affair. That would be followed by any questions I have and that I would need to feel her complete honestly. The 2nd thing was those two affair helpers need to be removed from our lives if she wants the marriage to continue.

Away we go.


----------



## Graywolf2

Anon1111 said:


> it seems your wife is an expert at creating a cheerleading section for her poor choices
> 
> a huge component of this must be her willingness to bad mouth you in order to portray herself as a sympathetic victim
> 
> you might consider requesting her to come clean to your extended family and social circle regarding what she's done and to "correct the record" regarding any lies she has told about you.


The above is great.

Ask her a 3rd question. If you are so bad why in the world would she want to be with you? Offer her the door and have her explain to her friends and family why she didn't take it.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Cowboy2 said:


> The note said in order to move forward and see if healing is possible I need 2 things. One was complete and total honestly from her regarding the affair. That would be followed by any questions I have and that I would need to feel her complete honestly. The 2nd thing was those two affair helpers need to be removed from our lives if she wants the marriage to continue.
> 
> Away we go.


Excellent step in the right direction. You need to take this one more step forward. 

If she will not comply with your two requirements, you MUST be prepared to move on from her.

It is the only way YOU will heal. This is not about her ANYMORE. This is about YOU.

When you get over the fear of losing her, only then will you take the power back in the relationship.

Reconciliation is still possible but she MUST come 100% clean. You cannot accept anything less.

Also ass clown and his wife have got to go, PERMANENTLY. As well as anyone else who was involved.


----------



## bandit.45

Cowboy2 said:


> Yup, she definitely is.
> 
> Early on in the affair I saw a message from the male friend/affair supporter that said "I feel so sorry for you that you don't get that at home! You deserve to be happy!".
> 
> At the time I was like what is he talking about? What isn't she getting? What's missing and what am I missing? Of course in hindsight it's easy to see she told she didn't get closeness or some other made up bulls**t. All part of creating the victim.


You know this struck me reading this. 

It takes a particularly perverse and immoral person to flagrantly badmouth and misrepresent their spouse (who they are supposed to protect and cherish above all others) just to generate sympathy and attention for themselves. 

It is almost like Munchhausen-by-Proxy Syndrome, where a woman will keep her child ill or even kill the child so as to garner attention and sympathy from family, nurses and doctors. 

...anything to keep those ego kibbles coming. 

It is sick man. 

You should point this out to her. 

Oh, and I would have her go on Facebook and post a public apology to you, admitting that she had misrepresented you to her friends and cohorts. See if she has the nads to do that. I bet she doesn't.


----------



## LosingHim

Cowboy2 said:


> This morning I provided her a note(with the date so it's documented) before I left for work. I told her I'd had some things on my mind that needed to be addressed soon.
> 
> The note said in order to move forward and see if healing is possible I need 2 things. One was complete and total honestly from her regarding the affair. That would be followed by any questions I have and that I would need to feel her complete honestly. The 2nd thing was those two affair helpers need to be removed from our lives if she wants the marriage to continue.
> 
> Away we go.


Any response from her so far? You said you gave her the note this morning so was it on her way to work? If so, has she text or called acknowledging that you want these things? Has she fought it at all or anything like that? 

Be prepared to tell her that if those two things do not happen that you will be filing for divorce. 100% honesty here, the ONLY thing that woke me up completely that I needed to come 100% clean with my husband was him telling me he wanted a separation. That’s not what it should have taken, but again 100% honest, I’d had no fear of losing my marriage as repercussions for what I had done until that point. I was delusional enough in thinking that I could continue to trickle truth and lie to ‘save’ my marriage up until that point. You do not have to follow through with separation or divorce, but she has to fully believe that you will.


----------



## Cowboy2

LosingHim said:


> Any response from her so far? You said you gave her the note this morning so was it on her way to work? If so, has she text or called acknowledging that you want these things? Has she fought it at all or anything like that?
> 
> Be prepared to tell her that if those two things do not happen that you will be filing for divorce. 100% honesty here, the ONLY thing that woke me up completely that I needed to come 100% clean with my husband was him telling me he wanted a separation. That’s not what it should have taken, but again 100% honest, I’d had no fear of losing my marriage as repercussions for what I had done until that point. I was delusional enough in thinking that I could continue to trickle truth and lie to ‘save’ my marriage up until that point. You do not have to follow through with separation or divorce, but she has to fully believe that you will.


I asked her to read the note when I was leaving for work, she leaves about an hour after me.

She texted me about 20 minutes after I left. She said I can ask her anything I want. She said we've been thru it over & over and she's told me everything and she's put it behind her as her biggest mistake. She said she'll address anything I need addressed and 100% gets how I feel f***ed over. Last thing was having us relive it over and over was not the best solution in her opinion.

So while there are still shades of "let's put it all behind us" the positive was the quick response and willingness to answer whatever needs answered. We will see if this translates to reality.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Cowboy2 said:


> I asked her to read the note when I was leaving for work, she leaves about an hour after me.
> 
> She texted me about 20 minutes after I left. She said I can ask her anything I want. She said we've been thru it over & over and she's told me everything and she's put it behind her as her biggest mistake. She said she'll address anything I need addressed and 100% gets how I feel f***ed over. Last thing was having us relive it over and over was not the best solution in her opinion.
> 
> So while there are still shades of "let's put it all behind us" the positive was the quick response and willingness to answer whatever needs answered. We will see if this translates to reality.


And is she going to dump her toxic friends who disrespected you?


----------



## LosingHim

Cowboy2 said:


> I asked her to read the note when I was leaving for work, she leaves about an hour after me.
> 
> She texted me about 20 minutes after I left. She said I can ask her anything I want. She said we've been thru it over & over and she's told me everything and she's put it behind her as her biggest mistake. She said she'll address anything I need addressed and 100% gets how I feel f***ed over. Last thing was having us relive it over and over was not the best solution in her opinion.
> 
> So while there are still shades of "let's put it all behind us" the positive was the quick response and willingness to answer whatever needs answered. We will see if this translates to reality.


This sounds good. Be careful of the “lets put this all behind us” unless YOU are the one suggesting it because that has to be YOUR choice to make. That is the choice that my husband made. He doesn’t want to talk about it anymore, he wants to leave it in the past and only move forward. I’m not saying that will work for us, only time will tell with that, but I have let him know that if he WANTS to talk about it we can, any time he has questions, he can ask and I will answer.

Hopefully she answers your questions without being defensive or any “I’ve already TOLD you…..”. I’m not saying that may not happen at first. I think human nature is to be defensive when we feel we have to explain ourselves multiple times. If she does that at first, a simple “look, this is what I NEED, either answer or get out” should suffice. She may not understand right away that you don’t have the facts and closure you need but a simple reminder should do the trick if she’s really wanting this to work. If she remains combative or annoyed, then you have a problem. 

I wish you luck. As I had offered to another poster here who wished for reconciliation, I’m willing to talk to your wife if you think it would help.


----------



## MyRevelation

Watch actions over words ... with that in mind, it seems her actions are to avoid the topic of cutting the A enablers out of your lives. She can fake honesty with words/lies to meet the requirement of demand #1, but what actions will she take to sever contact with the enablers to meet what I would view as the most important demand #2.

The reason I say #2 is the most important is that it requires her to take some action to sever contact and make you and your M her priority over other friendships and accept some of the consequences for her own actions. At this point in time, THAT is where the rubber meets the road.


----------



## bandit.45

Cowboy2 said:


> She said we've been thru it over & over and she's told me everything and she's put it behind her as her biggest mistake. She said she'll address anything I need addressed and 100% gets how I feel f***ed over. Last thing was having us relive it over and over was not the best solution in her opinion.


She doesn't get it. She just doesn't. A large part of that is you not making her understand where you are coming from. 

When you sit her down and talk to her, before you even start asking her questions, you need to look her in the eye and say something to the effect of: 

_"There is no 'putting this behind us' wife. The scars from what you did to me will never go away. In fact, the wound is still open. There is no 'putting this behind us.' I will heal at my own pace, and if it takes five years for me to get to a place where I trust you again and feel like we are on a firm footing in our marriage, then that is how long it is going to take. You don't get to dictate when I move on from this, nor how fast I heal. I have to heal on my own time, and if that means I have to ask you twenty thousand more questions then you need to be available to answer them. You are either aboard my train or you are not. If you want to get off the train, I will gladly let you go at the next station. I will file for divorce and we can both move on if you can't hack it. You brought this misery into our lives and you can either work with me to heal our marriage or you can leave. It is just that simple. If I ever hear you say 'put it behind us' again, I am gone.... it will be over. I'm done messing around"._


----------



## sokillme

Cowboy2 said:


> This morning I provided her a note(with the date so it's documented) before I left for work. I told her I'd had some things on my mind that needed to be addressed soon.
> 
> The note said in order to move forward and see if healing is possible I need 2 things. One was complete and total honestly from her regarding the affair. That would be followed by any questions I have and that I would need to feel her complete honestly. The 2nd thing was those two affair helpers need to be removed from our lives if she wants the marriage to continue.
> 
> Away we go.


After reading this post I don't think even all of this is going to make you happy. I think you have come to the realization that you got a sh!tty deal and nothing she does is going to change that. Love should be the only, I mean only reason to stay. I mean romantic, "even will all the crap this is the best person in my life and she just made a mistake" kind of love. 

You are still buying the Sunk Cost Fallacy. The time you invested is gone, you should be living for your future.


----------



## bandit.45

sokillme said:


> After reading this post I don't think even all of this is going to make you happy. I think you have come to the realization that you got a sh!tty deal and nothing she does is going to change that. Love should be the only, I mean only reason to stay. I mean romantic, "even will all the crap this is the best person in my life and she just made a mistake" kind of love.
> 
> You are still buying the Sunk Cost Fallacy. The time you invested is gone, you should be living for your future.


Yep. I agree. Even if she ends up acting like an adult and actually helping him heal, five years down the road he's going to be kicking himself for being such a doormat. 

R never works, and even if it does, one of the two partners is never truly happy or satisfied. Kudos to Cowboy for being willing to eat the sh!t sandwich. Most men cannot.


----------



## sokillme

Banned-It.45 said:


> Yep. I agree. Even if she ends up acting like an adult and actually helping him heal, five years down the road he's going to be kicking himself for being such a doormat.
> 
> R never works, and even if it does, one of the two partners is never truly happy or satisfied. Kudos to Cowboy for being willing to eat the sh!t sandwich. Most men cannot.


I won't say never but it's rare. And it never works in these kind of one person was a doormat kind of relationships. Eventually people get older and as you get older your insecurities go away, probably just from experience. It gets harder and harder to put up with crap.


----------



## larry.gray

Cowboy2 said:


> Gave my wife a secret cell phone. Think the term is burner phone right?
> 
> I was floored when I discovered it. When I confronted my MIL about it 2 years post fact she said it wasn't for my wife to continue her affair, it was because I was making my wife feel trapped by looking at her phone. Ya think? Part of how I was portrayed as so controlling I'm sure.
> 
> Unsurprisingly the only texts and calls on the phone were to OM.


%[email protected]@#!!!

Have you considered hiring an escort for your FIL as a birthday present? Better yet, a pair of young vixens he'd have a hard time refusing?


----------



## TAMAT

Cowboy,

Make it known to her that a polygraph/lie detector is being scheduled.

Make it known to her that she has to empty her memory banks of everything about the affair.

Also make it known that as long as she is keeping any bit of the truth from you the affair continues and you will think of it every day for the rest of your life. 

It was not a "mistake" a mistake is when you burn the chicken and you go out to eat McDonalds. This is an affair. The OM is not "Tom", the other man is "Marys Husband" or "Bretts Father". 

Tamat


----------



## larry.gray

CantBelieveThis said:


> I know the feeling....I was close to my parents-in-law...when W cheated they completely sided with her *(which I understand, is their kid), *


Respectfully, BS

My parents were bitterly divided when my sister cheated. You do not have to side with your kid when they are wrong.


> but also completely ignored me and wouldnt even talk to me about it.....ever since I no longer feel close to them, I hardly speak to them and just out of courtesy and only if absolutely necessary.


I doubt I'd be that nice. Just because they are blood doesn't take away from the fact that they are enemies to your marriage.


----------



## Dyokemm

larry.gray said:


> Respectfully, BS
> 
> My parents were bitterly divided when my sister cheated. You do not have to side with your kid when they are wrong.
> 
> 
> I doubt I'd be that nice. Just because they are blood doesn't take away from the fact that they are enemies to your marriage.


I agree.

There is no requirement that you support a loved one when they are dead wrong.

My paternal grandmother's brothers never spoke to her again during the remaining 50+ years of their lives after she abandoned her kids and ran off with a POSOM.....and her own parents kept minimal contact.

She was essentially evicted from the family.


----------



## LucasJackson

Dyokemm said:


> I agree.
> 
> There is no requirement that you support a loved one when they are dead wrong.
> 
> My paternal grandmother's brothers never spoke to her again during the remaining 50+ years of their lives after she abandoned her kids and ran off with a POSOM.....and her own parents kept minimal contact.
> 
> She was essentially evicted from the family.


A cheating lying woman that abandons her family is a cancer to anyone she associates with. Much healthier to extract that cancer for good and never let it back in.


----------



## larry.gray

Dyokemm said:


> My paternal grandmother's brothers never spoke to her again during the remaining 50+ years of their lives after she abandoned her kids and ran off with a POSOM.....and her own parents kept minimal contact.
> 
> She was essentially evicted from the family.


A couple we were in multiple kids' activities with had a classic WAW. After 4 kids, she went to nursing school, and when she graduated, she bolted. Shacked up with multiple guys, partied and generally.avoided being a mommy.

Dad remarried a few years later to a widow. We're still involved in many kid activities and see them all the time. We see exMIL in their lives all the time. ExMIL is grateful for the wonderful step mother that the new wife has been, and they've become good friends. ExMIL rarely sees her own daughter.


----------



## alte Dame

You sound checked out to me. Maybe it's just how it comes across in this thread and it's not reflective of your real feelings, but if it is, you might want to cut your losses rather than push her now for more truth. If you are now finally going to force her to be completely honest and dig for remorse, then it will be harder on your conscience to make the break that I sense you want.

She says that you know everything, but I'll bet the farm that her two enabling friends know a lot more than you do. They're a little soap opera cast of their own, whispering confidences to one another and keeping you in the dark. They're still doing it, too. You can be sure that she's told them everything about the July 4th 'uninvite.'


----------



## Cowboy2

Banned-It.45 said:


> She doesn't get it. She just doesn't. A large part of that is you not making her understand where you are coming from.
> 
> When you sit her down and talk to her, before you even start asking her questions, you need to look her in the eye and say something to the effect of:
> 
> _"There is no 'putting this behind us' wife. The scars from what you did to me will never go away. In fact, the wound is still open. There is no 'putting this behind us.' I will heal at my own pace, and if it takes five years for me to get to a place where I trust you again and feel like we are on a firm footing in our marriage, then that is how long it is going to take. You don't get to dictate when I move on from this, nor how fast I heal. I have to heal on my own time, and if that means I have to ask you twenty thousand more questions then you need to be available to answer them. You are either aboard my train or you are not. If you want to get off the train, I will gladly let you go at the next station. I will file for divorce and we can both move on if you can't hack it. You brought this misery into our lives and you can either work with me to heal our marriage or you can leave. It is just that simple. If I ever hear you say 'put it behind us' again, I am gone.... it will be over. I'm done messing around"._



We got out of the house for a while last night to talk but nothing in depth. We didn't have the time and with working opposite schedules today we are going to talk Saturday. She canceled plans with her best friend for Saturday on her own.

When we did talk last night I used similar words to her. I said its on my timetable, not hers. If she doesn't like it that's fine, lets start the divorce process. I said this train is coming one way or another, too much has been avoided for too long. Right now we see if this can be healed or not.


----------



## Cowboy2

alte Dame said:


> You sound checked out to me. Maybe it's just how it comes across in this thread and it's not reflective of your real feelings, but if it is, you might want to cut your losses rather than push her now for more truth. If you are now finally going to force her to be completely honest and dig for remorse, then it will be harder on your conscience to make the break that I sense you want.
> 
> She says that you know everything, but I'll bet the farm that her two enabling friends know a lot more than you do. They're a little soap opera cast of their own, whispering confidences to one another and keeping you in the dark. They're still doing it, too. You can be sure that she's told them everything about the July 4th 'uninvite.'


You're right, I am somewhat checked out. I don't feel emotionally invested in the marriage anymore. That's part of the realization I came to through this introspection process over the last few weeks. I told her that yesterday and even with going thru this I don't know if that's gonna find peace but it's the only option if the marriage has a chance to survive.


----------



## drifting on

Cowboy2 said:


> I asked her to read the note when I was leaving for work, she leaves about an hour after me.
> 
> She texted me about 20 minutes after I left. She said I can ask her anything I want. She said we've been thru it over & over and she's told me everything and she's put it behind her as her biggest mistake. She said she'll address anything I need addressed and 100% gets how I feel f***ed over. Last thing was having us relive it over and over was not the best solution in her opinion.
> 
> So while there are still shades of "let's put it all behind us" the positive was the quick response and willingness to answer whatever needs answered. We will see if this translates to reality.





Cowboy, you did get a response, but that response was anything that you wanted. I read that response as blame shifting and deflecting. The fact that it took her probably less then five minutes to type and send is alarming. She will answer any question, with lies no doubt, it was her biggest mistake, portraying you as evil wasn't even thought of. Yet it probably took seven total minutes to read and respond. Had she come back with a better response I'd give her more time. But when she closes with rehashing this is a bad idea thought, well, she's going to lie more. 

What I'm trying to point out to you cowboy, is I would bet good money you were not the first person contacted. My money would bet she contacted her best friend. She's still guarding her affair, she's still holding you at bay with knowing, and she is doing this after a note that says her marriage is at best, in peril. No cowboy, she is guarding this with her life, because her affair meant way more then her marriage ever did. Let's just look at your in laws real quick, and not very in depth. You wife portrayed you as evil to them, and they believed her, why? Do they not have a relationship with you? Do you present yourself in front of your in laws as what your wife described? My wife could never portray me as evil, her mother would never believe because she KNOWS me. Yet her mother gives her a burner phone, is amazed her daughter used it to contact OM, and I highly doubt has never apologized nor atone for her actions. Am I right? what else did dear old mom help her with? I'm sure it goes farther then just a phone. Lies? 

I give you a lot of credit for trying to work through this, but I'm afraid your wife isn't going to try to work through this. Perhaps you should have divorce papers filled out the next time you talk, along with an appointment with an attorney to file them the next morning after your talk. Banned-it 45 is right here, she just doesn't get and most likely never will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cowboy2

drifting on said:


> Cowboy, you did get a response, but that response was anything that you wanted. I read that response as blame shifting and deflecting. The fact that it took her probably less then five minutes to type and send is alarming. She will answer any question, with lies no doubt, it was her biggest mistake, portraying you as evil wasn't even thought of. Yet it probably took seven total minutes to read and respond. Had she come back with a better response I'd give her more time. But when she closes with rehashing this is a bad idea thought, well, she's going to lie more.
> 
> What I'm trying to point out to you cowboy, is I would bet good money you were not the first person contacted. My money would bet she contacted her best friend. She's still guarding her affair, she's still holding you at bay with knowing, and she is doing this after a note that says her marriage is at best, in peril. No cowboy, she is guarding this with her life, because her affair meant way more then her marriage ever did. Let's just look at your in laws real quick, and not very in depth. You wife portrayed you as evil to them, and they believed her, why? Do they not have a relationship with you? Do you present yourself in front of your in laws as what your wife described? My wife could never portray me as evil, her mother would never believe because she KNOWS me. Yet her mother gives her a burner phone, is amazed her daughter used it to contact OM, and I highly doubt has never apologized nor atone for her actions. Am I right? what else did dear old mom help her with? I'm sure it goes farther then just a phone. Lies?
> 
> I give you a lot of credit for trying to work through this, but I'm afraid your wife isn't going to try to work through this. Perhaps you should have divorce papers filled out the next time you talk, along with an appointment with an attorney to file them the next morning after your talk. Banned-it 45 is right here, she just doesn't get and most likely never will.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I felt the same about her response, there was definitely flavors of you know everything, let's just move past this. I don't think she gets that I don't know if I ever will, that's the point of this, to see if I can or not. I've told her that point blank too. I see her as a different person than I did when this all started.

On your MIL observations I believe her mother doesn't get it either. She has acted like it's not a big deal. Several years ago when we were on the brink of divorce her MIL compared the lying of the affair to her own husband lying and saying he's never smoked yet she found a lighter in his pocket one time. I was floored that she compared it to that, made no sense. She was and is totally downplaying. In the same conversation she said if you two divorce let's not make it about my daughter being a **** or something similar. Rug sweep much?

When my MIL gave her the phone she said it was due to my controlling nature cuz I was looking at her phone and trying to cut her off from her friends. Despite my history of never doing that until I discovered her affair. Her mother has a big issue with power and not giving any away. I'm fairly sure her mother told her I want total control when I said her two affair helpers need to be removed from her life.


----------



## Cowboy2

Years ago when I saw an very emotional email exchange between my wife and OM I sent it to her mother as her mother didn't believe me that it was as deep as I said. She claimed she never received the email. I resent it. Same thing, she said she never received it.


----------



## Marc878

Blood is thicker than water. There is nothing you can do with the inlaws. Write them off. Where do you think your wife got her character from?

The big question is what do you want long term. Cut the bullsh!t and go for it.


----------



## MJJEAN

Cowboy2 said:


> She was and is totally downplaying. In the same conversation she said if you two divorce let's not make it about my daughter being a **** or something similar. Rug sweep much?
> 
> When my MIL gave her the phone she said it was due to my controlling nature cuz I was looking at her phone and trying to cut her off from her friends. Despite my history of never doing that until I discovered her affair. Her mother has a big issue with power and not giving any away. I'm fairly sure her mother told her I want total control when I said her two affair helpers need to be removed from her life.


Have you stood up to her mother and said something? 

I swear, there are a lot of people in the world who should be thankful they aren't dealing with me. I have a small and ineffectual filter between my brain and my mouth. I also give zero f*cks.

Next time "not making it about her daughter being a ***** or something" comes up, look her directly in the eye and say "So, what descriptive would you use for a woman who commits adultery? If it walks like a duck..."

When she tries to claim controlling, tell her that there is no such thing as privacy when you're married. Two become one flesh and all that. People who are married intertwine their lives and what one does effects the other. If someone wants privacy, my suggestion is to not get married.

You may also want to mention that you have every right to say that you don't want people who have stabbed you in the back coming into your home. That's not controlling, either.

And I'd call MIL out on the phone, too. She knew her daughter was cheating. So, either she is completely retarded or she knew her daughter would use that phone to contact her OM. So, which is it? Is she a drooling moron or did she also aid and abet the cheating?

And that email with the evidence of wrongdoing? She tried to claim she never got it...twice? How about pulling it up and reading it to her? Preferably at the next family gathering so everyone else can enjoy the writings of your wife and her AP.

Call bullsh!t when you see and hear bullsh!t. Wife, MIL, and friends have been getting away with murder and you've been letting them.

Since I started calling people on their bullsh!t immediately, I have lost a few friends and family members. I do not miss them. YMMV.


----------



## Marc878

You're living in a den of snakes. You'll just get bitten over and over. You're only hope is to get out.

IMO you deserve better.


----------



## Marc878

It's funny when you don't like your wife screwing other men you're considered controlling? Wow!!!

You can never rationalize the irrational. 

You should be able to see how fruitless it is to try and deal with this BS.

You my friend are just wasting time. You need a clean break from the whole mess.

The years you have invested in this are "sunk costs". Look up the definition.


----------



## Thor

Your MIL is severely controlling and thus sees the world through that lens. Everything is assigned an interpretation based on control. Every decision is based on who has the control.

And I am sure your wife is to some significant extent like this, too. This is the environment she grew up in. This is how she learned to create safety for herself. I bet control of information is a tool both she and her mother use. Exhibit A would be the burner phone! Control the info and you control the other person.

Until she abandons control over the affair you can bet she is lying and hiding.

Furthermore, the "let's just move on" always means the betrayer has not capitulated. I can't remember but I don't think I wrote that long post on your thread. Anyhow, like an addict, the betrayer must hit rock bottom and reach the point of utter capitulation before true Reconciliation can occur. Only at that point will the full truth become available and only then will the betrayer reach true remorse for harming you. Up until then the betrayer can feel remorse for the unpleasant things which are happening but they don't take responsibility for causing those bad things to happen. As is often stated, they are sorry for getting caught but they aren't really sorry for the affair. They still rationalize reasons why the affair wasn't really all that bad a thing to do. But when they capitulate, then they accept responsibility for choosing actions which caused all the mess.

Your wife has not reached anywhere near that point yet.


----------



## 225985

Marc878 said:


> The years you have invested in this are "sunk costs". Look up the definition.


100% correct. I will add this to @Marc878 's post. Another TAMer linked this recently. 

How the Sunk Cost Fallacy Makes You Act Stupid

So you make an investment. You put a lot of money into it. It loses most of it money. Basically it is now worthless. So, do you invest more money into it because - heck = you already spend a lot of money on it? Think about it.

Now on the flip side, if there is a fundamental change in the investment (or your wife) that indicates with certainty the investment will recover and grow again, you might consider investing more into it. But lacking that change? No.


----------



## bandit.45

The only reason his MIL downplayed the affair and enabled her daughter with the phone is that she was likely a serial cheating sleestak herself back the day.


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## Marc878

*The fairytale* - wife finally sees the light begs for forgiveness and becomes the wife you need. MIL sees her wicked ways and apologizes and becomes your best friend. All the POS enabling friends magically disappear from your life. You all join hands and sing kumbaya walk off into the sunset and live happily ever after.

*The reality* - you are never gonna get full disclosure no matter what. Even if you did with all the lies and twists you wouldn't know it. Every morning you wake up you get to take another bite of the sh!t sandwich you've been served. You live with the thought your are alone in this "one against the crowd". 

You can talk and discuss all you want. Your current life is what it is. Only you can change that. No one else is going to do it for you. 

As the years go by are you gonna reflect back and say "I'm glad I stayed"?

Hope it works out for you. Whichever path you take.


----------



## TAMAT

Cowboy,

There is a chance that you were always the 2nd choice to your WW, some call it plan B, and that she carried a torch for OM ever since she broke up with him. This may be part of the reason she is stonewalling you, because to admit the full truth would in some way be to admit that her life is a lie. This may also be part of the reason you never felt your marriage was right. 

Your WWs involvement with OM could have occurred 5 years earlier or later, and could even occur again or if you die before her.

I saw this in action when I engineered an "accidental" meeting between my W and OM-1, with me off to the side not seen by OM-1. The 20+ years had not diminished the OMs attraction for my W one bit, my W of course denied any residual feelings for him. 

What had diminished however was my Ws attraction for me, which never returned, she was a wife, a mother, nurse, but never again was my lover. 

Had I not been the one to put forth an effort for all that time to be affectionate, initiate sex, make money, give gifts, remember holidays the marriage would have failed.

Tamat


----------



## Jasel

And not sure if I missed it but did she ever even directly address cutting off the toxic friends? 

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


----------



## sokillme

Marc878 said:


> *The fairytale* - wife finally sees the light begs for forgiveness and becomes the wife you need. MIL sees her wicked ways and apologizes and becomes your best friend. All the POS enabling friends magically disappear from your life. You all join hands and sing kumbaya walk off into the sunset and live happily ever after.
> 
> *The reality* - you are never gonna get full disclosure no matter what. Even if you did with all the lies and twists you wouldn't know it. Every morning you wake up you get to take another bite of the sh!t sandwich you've been served. You live with the thought your are alone in this "one against the crowd".
> 
> You can talk and discuss all you want. Your current life is what it is. Only you can change that. No one else is going to do it for you.
> 
> As the years go by are you gonna reflect back and say "I'm glad I stayed"?
> 
> Hope it works out for you. Whichever path you take.


*The fairytale* - You dump your wife and meet an honest attractive woman and spend the rest of your life with her in a normal marriage with some ups and down but no doubt, baggage, and infidelity. 

*The reality* - You dump your wife and meet an honest attractive woman and spend the rest of your life with her in a normal marriage with some ups and down but no doubt, baggage, and infidelity.


----------



## drifting on

Cowboy2 said:


> I felt the same about her response, there was definitely flavors of you know everything, let's just move past this. I don't think she gets that I don't know if I ever will, that's the point of this, to see if I can or not. I've told her that point blank too. I see her as a different person than I did when this all started.
> 
> On your MIL observations I believe her mother doesn't get it either. She has acted like it's not a big deal. Several years ago when we were on the brink of divorce her MIL compared the lying of the affair to her own husband lying and saying he's never smoked yet she found a lighter in his pocket one time. I was floored that she compared it to that, made no sense. She was and is totally downplaying. In the same conversation she said if you two divorce let's not make it about my daughter being a **** or something similar. Rug sweep much?
> 
> When my MIL gave her the phone she said it was due to my controlling nature cuz I was looking at her phone and trying to cut her off from her friends. Despite my history of never doing that until I discovered her affair. Her mother has a big issue with power and not giving any away. I'm fairly sure her mother told her I want total control when I said her two affair helpers need to be removed from her life.




PERFECT!!!!! Email your MIL the page of divorce papers where you list the cause of divorce. In that section put adultery, then add the words MIL enabled and encouraged the affair. Then sit back and watch the electronics around you light up!! After about a day answer her call, tell her you are shocked that she got this email but no others. Tell her you sent her numerous emails to the exact same address to be courteous and inform her of what you were filing. Tell her that because she did not respond you have since filed the papers as she did not object, then hang up. I wouldn't actually do this but it is fun to think about. I would tell your wife though that if you do file for divorce, adultery will be the reason as well as naming the supporters, and yes that does include dear old mom. 

Stay strong cowboy, check your wife's cell records to see if you were indeed the only person she contacted. Whatever did happen, did the enablers come to your house and act as if nothing is wrong??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

drifting on said:


> PERFECT!!!!! Email your MIL the page of divorce papers where you list the cause of divorce. In that section put adultery, then add the words MIL enabled and encouraged the affair. Then sit back and watch the electronics around you light up!! After about a day answer her call, tell her you are shocked that she got this email but no others. Tell her you sent her numerous emails to the exact same address to be courteous and inform her of what you were filing. Tell her that because she did not respond you have since filed the papers as she did not object, then hang up. I wouldn't actually do this but it is fun to think about. I would tell your wife though that if you do file for divorce, adultery will be the reason as well as naming the supporters, and yes that does include dear old mom.
> 
> Stay strong cowboy, check your wife's cell records to see if you were indeed the only person she contacted. Whatever did happen, did the enablers come to your house and act as if nothing is wrong??
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If I ever have to deal with adultery in my current marriage, @drifting on will on the list if advisors. 

This is freaking great!


----------



## MattMatt

farsidejunky said:


> If I ever have to deal with adultery in my current marriage, @drifting on will on the list if advisors.
> 
> This is freaking great!


It is an evil, cruel idea that is simply one of the best I have ever seen!


----------



## Cowboy2

Thor said:


> Your MIL is severely controlling and thus sees the world through that lens. Everything is assigned an interpretation based on control. Every decision is based on who has the control.
> 
> And I am sure your wife is to some significant extent like this, too. This is the environment she grew up in. This is how she learned to create safety for herself. I bet control of information is a tool both she and her mother use. Exhibit A would be the burner phone! Control the info and you control the other person.


Absolutely correct. Her mother is ALL about power. Who has the power, don't give up your power, keep all the power possible.

A common theme between the two although her mother is hard core I definitely have seen it rub strong in my wife as well though out our marriage.


----------



## Cowboy2

Jasel said:


> And not sure if I missed it but did she ever even directly address cutting off the toxic friends?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


We had several talks over the weekend working through the timeline of the affair and her answering my questions along the way. Nothing concrete on the toxic friends yet. Part of her MO is to stretch things out and not directly address them if she doesn't want to, part of my evaluation is how she handles this. She did initiate both talks and has seemed genuine in those thus far. Got a ways to go obviously.


----------



## NoChoice

OP,
In regards to your W and MIL may I quote Forest Gump; "stupid is as stupid does". Although I find it mildly cathartic to talk of pointing out to your MIL the part she played in all of this the reality is she doesn't see it and never will. Another thing you should consider very carefully is that you have the cart before the horse. You should not be dictating/demanding what your wife will/should do. It should be her approaching you, totally broken, severely contrite, asking even begging what she can do to help you heal.

Her friends should have been gone the minute she realized their catastrophic effect on the marriage. Her hesitation to answer questions should have vanished the minute she realized the devastation she had caused. Maybe these things will happen when/if she does realize it because that has not happened yet.

You mentioned she is dragging things out, taking her time about what to do about her friends. This is very telling as is her attitude in general. If I had to use one word to describe how she should be acting it would be passionate. She should be trying to move Heaven and Earth. Instead the word I would use to describe how she is acting is lackadaisical. If her attitude remains like this then I must tell you, R will prove futile.


----------



## Thor

NoChoice said:


> Instead the word I would use to describe how she is acting is lackadaisical. If her attitude remains like this then I must tell you, R will prove futile.


I think you're being generous. The word I would use is calculating. She's stretching out the trickle truth process to try to reduce what gets revealed and to manipulate OP into putting the sordid affair behind them before potentially damaging information has to be revealed.


----------



## drifting on

Thor said:


> I think you're being generous. The word I would use is calculating. She's stretching out the trickle truth process to try to reduce what gets revealed and to manipulate OP into putting the sordid affair behind them before potentially damaging information has to be revealed.




I agree 100%, but NoChoice is also correct. According to cowboy the wife has initiated two conversations of the affair. However these conversations have resulted in nothing concrete and have an appearance of stalling. This could be viewed as calculating and lackadaisical. There is a problem here that cowboy doesn't see coming, and this problem is bigger and bigger each day that passes. From what has been posted by cowboy his wife is all about the power like her own mother. Her mother will assist her daughter and hang cowboy out to dry in an instant. His fight is not just with his wife but also her mother, and daughter cannot lose of mother may not be so helpful. 

Cowboy, I suggest you first decide if you want this marriage. You have stated you were partially stepped out in earlier posts. You need to decide this first, it's either all in or all out, fence sitting will damage you far more then committing. Second, you need to inform your wife of your decision. Something that I did was fill out divorce papers, looked at what that would be like. It will strike you when you see your life in sections on paper, but at the same time I knew if I did divorce I would be ok. Wasn't my best choice much to the disagreement of others, but it was my best choice. 

Here is the thing cowboy, assume the worst, assume it was physical, can you accept that? Can you reconcile if it was physical? If you decide to reconcile cowboy, your marriage will need new boundaries. One of those boundaries is that you both are equal in decision making. One person has no more power them the other. Your wife is to understand your MIL is out of your marriage completely, you married your wife, not the MIL. Although they are family they have no place in your marriage. 

What you don't see cowboy is that your wife sees you as weak, that she can take this approach to you. Cowboy, what does she think she has to lose? It has been her way this whole time, if she has nothing to lose she has nothing to tell you. You will get lies and the tiniest of nuggets of new information. Fill out the divorce papers, next talk she initiates and doesn't come clean, ask her to drop them off at the attorney's office. If she doesn't, tell her you have a second set filled out and will do it yourself. Then do it. As for the reason of divorce, adultery and list her mom and friends. Tell her you will make this a public spectacle, that is what your wife and MIL fear the most, public shame. You can use any resource available to you, social media, letters, whatever you wish. 

Best of luck cowboy, you will have a fight on your hands.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cowboy2

I appreciate the continued insights.

I've been doing a lot of thinking on whether or not I want the marriage since this kicked off in my head. I'm not especially fond of facing this but I know I have to. I've been thinking about looking up a therapist in my area who has dealt with infidelity to see if they can guide me though whether the affair killed it for me and I'm simply continuing to stumble along 1/2 in. 

At first I was encouraged by her swift response. Then as the weekend ended less so because as pointed out here there's nothing concrete happening. It's been 5 days and there's been 2 conversations with no action being taken other than her level of attention and affection spiking which is normal for this. Placating. Again, part of my goal was to watch her actions thru this but as pointed out there must be real consequences as well.


----------



## farsidejunky

2x4 time.

You were the one that wanted to initiate the dialogue. It is up to you to finish the conversation. 

I see avoidance in both of you, yet it appears you are blaming her for your own. 

Have the conversation, and don't walk away from the table until you are satisfied that you have everything you need, or you will simply not get what you need, and then consequently it's time to move on. 

That fact that the conversation has not been finished is nobody's fault but yours. Finish what you started.


----------



## jld

Cowboy2 said:


> Absolutely correct. Her mother is ALL about power. Who has the power, don't give up your power, keep all the power possible.
> 
> A common theme between the two although her mother is hard core I definitely have seen it rub strong in my wife as well though out our marriage.


When women are controlling, it is usually because they do not feel safe. 

Just something to consider.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> When women are controlling, it is usually because they do not feel safe.
> 
> Just something to consider.


When women (or men for that matter) don't feel safe, it is not always because there's a legitimate concern about their safety, either.


----------



## jld

Cowboy2 said:


> I appreciate the continued insights.
> 
> I've been doing a lot of thinking on whether or not I want the marriage since this kicked off in my head. I'm not especially fond of facing this but I know I have to. I've been thinking about looking up a therapist in my area who has dealt with infidelity to see if they can guide me though whether the affair killed it for me and I'm simply continuing to stumble along 1/2 in.
> 
> At first I was encouraged by her swift response. Then as the weekend ended less so because as pointed out here there's nothing concrete happening. It's been 5 days and there's been 2 conversations with no action being taken other than her level of attention and affection spiking which is normal for this. Placating. Again, part of my goal was to watch her actions thru this but as pointed out there must be real consequences as well.


What are you considering for "real consequences"?


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> When women (or men for that matter) don't feel safe, it is not always because there's a legitimate concern about their safety, either.


Thing is, "legitimate" is in the eye of the beholder.


----------



## jld

Okay, only starting page 3, but you could have initiated a conversation with the whole crowd on the Fourth. Not angrily, but calmly, in front of their spouses. You could have humbly asked them why they did it.

They would have had a chance to answer, and their spouses would have been able to hear the whole thing. It could have been enlightening, and even healing, for all of you.


----------



## Cowboy2

farsidejunky said:


> 2x4 time.
> 
> You were the one that wanted to initiate the dialogue. It is up to you to finish the conversation.
> 
> I see avoidance in both of you, yet it appears you are blaming her for your own.
> 
> Have the conversation, and don't walk away from the table until you are satisfied that you have everything you need, or you will simply not get what you need, and then consequently it's time to move on.
> 
> That fact that the conversation has not been finished is nobody's fault but yours. Finish what you started.


You are absolutely right. Thanks for this.


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> When women are controlling, it is usually because they do not feel safe.
> 
> Just something to consider.


Like a broken record...


----------



## bandit.45

I'm thinking that this latest incident is just a symptom of the larger issue, and that is you are coming to the realization that her PA was a deal-breaker for you...plain and simple. It sometimes takes BS several months or years to work through the trauma and come to that conclusion, and that is where you are at now. The dust has settled, you are no longer in a panic to save your marriage, and for the first time you have an objective, unclouded view of the devastation she has wrought in your life...like a WWII army scout overlooking the desolation of Hiroshima in 1945. 

It is okay to admit to yourself and to her that what she did was a deal-breaker, and you have to ask yourself: who is really stretching things out here? Who is avoiding the eventual outcome of this? 

From the way you write and the things you say, you have checked out.


----------



## drifting on

jld said:


> When women are controlling, it is usually because they do not feel safe.
> 
> Just something to consider.


jld,

This actually stopped me dead in my tracks, I read this three times and my d-day began to slowly play in my head. So few words spoken, but the meaning and truth inside it is amazing. My wife tried to control every aspect regarding her infidelity leading up to d-day. The lies and deception down to just what exactly I thought. My wife tried to control all of it, but the dam sprung a small leak and the control began to dissipate before her eyes. I had started to make her feel safe, I began to support her and coddle her to get to the truth. She didn't see that coming, and on the 20th of January, 2014 I got my full confession. The key to that was making her feel safe, to which I can tell you infuriated me beyond imagination, but I got my desired result. Cowboy, I hope you understand what @jld is saying here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

drifting on said:


> jld,
> 
> This actually stopped me dead in my tracks, I read this three times and my d-day began to slowly play in my head. So few words spoken, but the meaning and truth inside it is amazing. My wife tried to control every aspect regarding her infidelity leading up to d-day. The lies and deception down to just what exactly I thought. My wife tried to control all of it, but the dam sprung a small leak and the control began to dissipate before her eyes. I had started to make her feel safe, I began to support her and coddle her to get to the truth. She didn't see that coming, and on the 20th of January, 2014 I got my full confession. The key to that was making her feel safe, to which I can tell you infuriated me beyond imagination, but I got my desired result. Cowboy, I hope you understand what @jld is saying here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, I am sorry to hear it used as a manipulation technique. It is supposed to be done sincerely, for the good of the marriage and family.


----------



## sokillme

Cowboy2 said:


> I appreciate the continued insights.
> 
> I've been doing a lot of thinking on whether or not I want the marriage since this kicked off in my head. I'm not especially fond of facing this but I know I have to. I've been thinking about looking up a therapist in my area who has dealt with infidelity to see if they can guide me though whether the affair killed it for me and I'm simply continuing to stumble along 1/2 in.


The real question is why? Truthfully why? Why are you desperately trying to change yourself so you can stay in a marriage that is by your words broken. With a person who betrayed you and really doesn't want to do the things to help you heal. 

Why?


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Well, I am sorry to hear it used as a manipulation technique. It is supposed to be done sincerely, for the good of the marriage and family.


I would argue that it was in fact done for the good of the family.


----------



## MattMatt

jld said:


> Well, I am sorry to hear it used as a manipulation technique. It is supposed to be done sincerely, for the good of the marriage and family.


Perhaps it was used in exactly that way?


----------



## sokillme

drifting on said:


> jld,
> 
> This actually stopped me dead in my tracks, I read this three times and my d-day began to slowly play in my head. So few words spoken, but the meaning and truth inside it is amazing. My wife tried to control every aspect regarding her infidelity leading up to d-day. The lies and deception down to just what exactly I thought. My wife tried to control all of it, but the dam sprung a small leak and the control began to dissipate before her eyes. I had started to make her feel safe, I began to support her and coddle her to get to the truth. She didn't see that coming, and on the 20th of January, 2014 I got my full confession. The key to that was making her feel safe, to which I can tell you infuriated me beyond imagination, but I got my desired result. Cowboy, I hope you understand what @jld is saying here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well if that is the case if there is a point where you don't make her feel safe again (say you loose your job) she will be right out there looking having another affair.:frown2:


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I would argue that it was in fact done for the good of the family.


Manipulation does not breed trust, far. And that is the main thing you need in relationships.


----------



## jld

MattMatt said:


> Perhaps it was used in exactly that way?


Does not sound like it to me. Even the language sounds bitter.


----------



## farsidejunky

Interesting, that.

She was out manipulated. While this may not breed trust, it can breed respect and empathy. She learned that she was out-manipulated. It should give her pause to try and manipulate him in the future.

Sometimes someone has to feel someone's pain before they can feel someone's pain.


----------



## MattMatt

jld said:


> Does not sound like it to me. Even the language sounds bitter.


Being bitter doesn't equal being in the wrong, necessarily.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Interesting, that.
> 
> She was out manipulated. While this may not breed trust, it can breed respect and empathy. She learned that she was out-manipulated. It should give her pause to try and manipulate him in the future.
> 
> Sometimes someone has to feel someone's pain before they can feel someone's pain.


I think it will just remind her to never trust him completely. 

Cowboy, don't use making her feel safe as a technique of manipulation. It is inviting bad energy into your life. Be sincere, or don't do it.


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> *I think it will just remind her to never trust him completely. *
> 
> Cowboy, don't use making her feel safe as a technique of manipulation. It is inviting bad energy into your life. Be sincere, or don't do it.


If so, that will make two of them. No way in hell he should trust her completely, she's proven she's not worthy of it.


----------



## jld

Nucking Futs said:


> If so, that will make two of them. No way in hell he should trust her completely, she's proven she's not worthy of it.


That's a heck of a reconciliation then.


----------



## 2ntnuf

jld said:


> That's a heck of a reconciliation then.


Hooooooooly crap. You got it!! I'd have never believed it, if I didn't see it with my own eyeballs. :smile2:


----------



## MJJEAN

jld said:


> That's a heck of a reconciliation then.


That's pretty much reconciliation, period. A couple can rebuild trust to an extent, but the reality is that the damage is permanent. There will never be complete trust again. The BS cannot unknow what they know.


----------



## MattMatt

MJJEAN said:


> That's pretty much reconciliation, period. A couple can rebuild trust to an extent, but the reality is that the damage is permanent. There will never be complete trust again. The BS cannot unknow what they know.


A new trust, based on knowledge of how flawed they were/are?

As against the witless, unreasoning, unknowing, blind, stupid trust of being in lust, sorry, love?


----------



## Anon1111

I think at the end of the day you will know whether she is being forthcoming or not.

there's no point in trying squeeze anything out of her. give her the opportunity to come clean and watch what she does.


----------



## MJJEAN

MattMatt said:


> A new trust, based on knowledge of how flawed they were/are?
> 
> As against the witless, unreasoning, unknowing, blind, stupid trust of being in lust, sorry, love?


I came out of the womb without the ability to blindly trust anyone but my mother. Which, I suppose, could make reconciling easier for me should the need ever arise. At least I wouldn't have the additional shock and pain of innocent trust broken to pieces.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Every time you see their face, hear their voice, smell their perfume/cologne, etc., you will have to look past the memories. That means you will remember, but you will have to accept that they happen and let them run their course while you concentrate on the remaining good and what has been accomplished to date. The future will be a little tough because it is unknown. Pretty much any unknown will have to be dealt with so that it is just a passing thought and focus on belief that the good that might come is worth the risk of failure. 

Those kinds of thoughts are not normal. Yes, from time to time they may have happened before, but they were not so prominent or tough to let pass. That's the innocence gone. Now it's forced innocence.


----------



## MattMatt

2ntnuf said:


> Every time you see their face, hear their voice, smell their perfume/cologne, etc., you will have to look past the memories. That means you will remember, but you will have to accept that they happen and let them run their course while you concentrate on the remaining good and what has been accomplished to date. The future will be a little tough because it is unknown. Pretty much any unknown will have to be dealt with so that it is just a passing thought and focus on belief that the good that might come is worth the risk of failure.
> 
> Those kinds of thoughts are not normal. Yes, from time to time they may have happened before, but they were not so prominent or tough to let pass. That's the innocence gone. Now it's forced innocence.


Fortunately my wife's affair/fling was with a greasy, nasty POS.


----------



## 2ntnuf

MattMatt said:


> Fortunately my wife's affair/fling was with a greasy, nasty POS.


It's a good way to see him. Obviously, she did not see him that way, at least at one time. Which would bug me because I must have been less "attractive" than a greasy, nasty POS. 

Maybe I think too much?

ETA: Oh, maybe you thought I meant the OM or OW's cologne or perfume and face? No, I meant your wife or husband, whichever applies. This wasn't directly meant for you, Matt. It's a bit of an explanation of the post you quoted above.


----------



## MattMatt

2ntnuf said:


> It's a good way to see him. Obviously, she did not see him that way, at least at one time. Which would bug me because I must have been less "attractive" than a greasy, nasty POS.
> 
> Maybe I think too much?


She fell in love with him.

And that still hurts. Oh, well.

What doesn't kill you sends you mad. Or something...


----------



## NoChoice

2ntnuf said:


> It's a good way to see him. Obviously, she did not see him that way, at least at one time. Which would bug me because I must have been less "attractive" than a greasy, nasty POS.
> 
> *Maybe I think too much*?
> 
> ETA: Oh, maybe you thought I meant the OM or OW's cologne or perfume and face? No, I meant your wife or husband, whichever applies. This wasn't directly meant for you, Matt. It's a bit of an explanation of the post you quoted above.


The BS thinks too much and the WS not enough, how does one reconcile that? The same lack of thoughtful understanding that says "it's over now let's just move on" is what created the situation that needs to be moved on from. Fascinating.


----------



## 2ntnuf

NoChoice said:


> The BS thinks too much and the WS not enough, how does one reconcile that? The same lack of thoughtful understanding that says "it's over now let's just move on" is what created the situation that needs to be moved on from. Fascinating.


Find someone more compatible.


----------



## sokillme

OP there is a really good post on SI that just went up called 15, it by a guy 15 years out from his wife having a long term affair. He says he is happy, his post sounds like he has been living in jail for 15 years. This will be you if you stay.

Go read it and see your future. Hey at least everyone on SI will applaud you for it so that's something.


----------



## sokillme

MattMatt said:


> A new trust, based on knowledge of how flawed they were/are?
> 
> As against the witless, unreasoning, unknowing, blind, stupid trust of being in lust, sorry, love?


No I believe that is just called denial.


----------



## katiecrna

This guy has some balls to come to YOUR home and be in your presence after he disrespected you and your family. It actually blows my mind. He should of went right up to you and apologized and admitted his involvement. The fact that he didn't... Wow. F*ck that, I would never let anyone in my house like that.


----------



## Cowboy2

sokillme said:


> OP there is a really good post on SI that just went up called 15, it by a guy 15 years out from his wife having a long term affair. He says he is happy, his post sounds like he has been living in jail for 15 years. This will be you if you stay.
> 
> Go read it and see your future. Hey at least everyone on SI will applaud you for it so that's something.



Point me in the right direction, I'd like to read it. What is SI???


----------



## Rubix Cubed

katiecrna said:


> This guy has some balls to come to YOUR home and be in your presence after he disrespected you and your family. It actually blows my mind. He should of went right up to you and apologized and admitted his involvement. The fact that he didn't... Wow. F*ck that, I would never let anyone in my house like that.


I'd be willing to bet the guy never even gave it a thought, much less realizes the damage he supported.


----------



## LosingHim

Cowboy, are you done? Are you checked out? If not, what do you want from this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TRy

Cowboy2 said:


> We had several talks over the weekend working through the timeline of the affair and her answering my questions along the way. Nothing concrete on the toxic friends yet. Part of her MO is to stretch things out and not directly address them if she doesn't want to, part of my evaluation is how she handles this.


 Reference the "toxic friends", I call bull to you evaluating how she handles this. You are the one stretching things out not her. Sit her down and tell her that her time is up on this and that you need to know right now if she is willing to go 100% no contact with these toxic friends or not. Tell her that her mother should be on that list, but you will let that one slide if she goes all in on everything else. Also tell her that along with 100% no contact, you need to have her commit to both of you agreeing to 100% transparency, which includes all passwords, without complaint or bad mouthing to anyone. Let her know that if she thinks that this is too high a price to pay for her cheating, that this will tell you that you are wasting your time trying to save this marriage as she will never truly understand the magnitude of how much she hurt you, and thus she will never be truly remorseful.


----------



## jld

Cowboy, why were all those people, including her mother, believing and supporting her?


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> Cowboy, why were all those people, including her mother, believing and supporting her?


Here it comes. Get ready Cowboy, this is where she tells you it's your fault your wife cheated.


----------



## sokillme

jld said:


> Cowboy, why were all those people, including her mother, believing and supporting her?


Because he is a man jld, and when things aren't going well in a relationship it is a woman's right to act out any way she wants.


----------



## Duguesclin

Nucking Futs said:


> Here it comes. Get ready Cowboy, this is where she tells you it's your fault your wife cheated.


Maybe it would be interesting to have a complete picture and not only the side that makes him look good.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Duguesclin said:


> Maybe it would be interesting to have a complete picture and not only the side that makes him look good.


Not necessary. If a woman cheats it's because a man failed to lead her properly. It's the only possible reason. Ask your wife, she'll tell you. Women don't have agency, therefore the husband is always at fault if she cheats.


----------



## 225985

Nucking Futs said:


> Not necessary. If a woman cheats it's because a man failed to lead her properly. It's the only possible reason. Ask your wife, she'll tell you. Women don't have agency, therefore the husband is always at fault if she cheats.




To certain posters it is ALWAYS the husband's fault. Different thread, same post.


----------



## Cowboy2

jld said:


> Cowboy, why were all those people, including her mother, believing and supporting her?


Last night I told her I need to work through this quickly, let's keep it going. No dragging it out. The toxic friends was the main topic last night.

I am going to speak to all 3 which includes her mother. This will at least get it off my chest which is important to me. I did talk to her mother about the phone several years ago but there's more to it, her mother is the control fanatic who fed her the garbage I was cutting her off from her friends back when I looked at her phone which led to the burner phone. I don't expect her to understand but it's important I lay out what I think is terrible advice she feeds my wife.

The male friend will be gone from any aspect of our lives. The female best friend I'm going to speak to I told her we will see where we go after that talk.

I appreciate the kick in the ass to not wait to see what she does. More updates as things evolve.


----------



## Cowboy2

Nucking Futs said:


> Not necessary. If a woman cheats it's because a man failed to lead her properly. It's the only possible reason. Ask your wife, she'll tell you. Women don't have agency, therefore the husband is always at fault if she cheats.


Sounds like red pill talking.


----------



## jld

Cowboy2 said:


> Last night I told her I need to work through this quickly, let's keep it going. No dragging it out. The toxic friends was the main topic last night.
> 
> I am going to speak to all 3 which includes her mother. This will at least get it off my chest which is important to me. I did talk to her mother about the phone several years ago but there's more to it, her mother is the control fanatic who fed her the garbage I was cutting her off from her friends back when I looked at her phone which led to the burner phone. I don't expect her to understand but it's important I lay out what I think is terrible advice she feeds my wife.
> 
> The male friend will be gone from any aspect of our lives. The female best friend I'm going to speak to I told her we will see where we go after that talk.
> 
> I appreciate the kick in the ass to not wait to see what she does. More updates as things evolve.


None of this was an answer to my question.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Cowboy2 said:


> Last night I told her I need to work through this quickly, let's keep it going. No dragging it out. The toxic friends was the main topic last night.
> 
> I am going to speak to all 3 which includes her mother. This will at least get it off my chest which is important to me. I did talk to her mother about the phone several years ago but there's more to it, her mother is the control fanatic who fed her the garbage I was cutting her off from her friends back when I looked at her phone which led to the burner phone. I don't expect her to understand but it's important I lay out what I think is terrible advice she feeds my wife.
> 
> The male friend will be gone from any aspect of our lives. * The female best friend I'm going to speak to I told her we will see where we go after that talk.
> *
> I appreciate the kick in the ass to not wait to see what she does. More updates as things evolve.


So she balked at losing one of her enablers and you backed down?


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## MattMatt

Duguesclin said:


> Maybe it would be interesting to have a complete picture and not only the side that makes him look good.


Thank goodness! The Tag Team is here!


----------



## Anon1111

Cowboy2 said:


> Last night I told her I need to work through this quickly, let's keep it going. No dragging it out. The toxic friends was the main topic last night.
> 
> I am going to speak to all 3 which includes her mother. This will at least get it off my chest which is important to me. I did talk to her mother about the phone several years ago but there's more to it, her mother is the control fanatic who fed her the garbage I was cutting her off from her friends back when I looked at her phone which led to the burner phone. I don't expect her to understand but it's important I lay out what I think is terrible advice she feeds my wife.
> 
> The male friend will be gone from any aspect of our lives. The female best friend I'm going to speak to I told her we will see where we go after that talk.
> 
> I appreciate the kick in the ass to not wait to see what she does. More updates as things evolve.


maybe I'm missing it but did she actually agree to any of this or were you just informing her of what you're doing?

the reason I'm asking is it seems that she needs to accept that she personally f-d up here and that it's not just her friends and family that are the issue.

obviously it's up to you to decide what you're comfortable with, but the impression I'm getting is that you're supposed to be the bad guy telling all of her friends and family to split and she gets to hang back, which potentially allows her to go behind your back and maintain the relationships.


----------



## TRy

Duguesclin said:


> Maybe it would be interesting to have a complete picture and not only the side that makes him look good.


 The OP that was cheated on will never have a complete picture of what happened, so there is no way that he can ever share it with you. 

But regardless there is no other side in this story as cheating is not a legitimate option. No affair has ever helped a marriage. She should have either discussed her issues with the OP directly so that he would have a chance to address them, or divorced the OP if they could not be addressed. What she did instead was talk about the OP behind his back to her toxic friends, her toxic family, and her affair partner. The truth is that most cheaters rationalize their cheating by reinventing history so that they can blame shift everything on to the betrayed spouse. Her arrogance in still seeing the toxic friends and bringing them over to the house, proves that she is not really afraid of the OP, and that the OP is not abusive; because if he were, she would not be baiting him like this and rubbing the affair in his face like this. Frankly, in reviewing the OP's thoughts at the start of this thread, the OP came across to me as a doormat.


----------



## MattMatt

Cowboy2 said:


> Sounds like red pill talking.


Not really. @Nucking Futs was presenting a parody of a viewpoint.


----------



## Dyokemm

MattMatt said:


> Not really. @Nucking Futs was presenting a parody of a viewpoint.


Yes....and one that we know we will be hearing a lot of very soon IMO.


----------



## Cowboy2

MattMatt said:


> Not really. @Nucking Futs was presenting a parody of a viewpoint.


Apparently I haven't been around long enough to catch when it's sarcasm yet.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

Dyokemm said:


> Yes....and one that we know we will be hearing a lot of very soon IMO.


 Not if you use the ignore function.:wink2:


----------



## sokillme

Coyboy what is your end game here? If everything were right in the world what would that look like with your family.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Cowboy2 said:


> Apparently I haven't been around long enough to catch when it's sarcasm yet.


Read enough threads with betrayed husbands and you'll see it's jld's default position.


----------



## drifting on

jld said:


> Well, I am sorry to hear it used as a manipulation technique. It is supposed to be done sincerely, for the good of the marriage and family.




jld

I had started to make her feel safe when we began MC, it had been over two and a half years since the affair. I sincerely needed to know the truth, needed to know what I could accept, needed to know if the marriage had a chance, and if the boys were mine biologically. I read your response above, and truthfully, your response infuriated me. Sadly I see that you are intelligent in regards to infidelity, but I really question where your above response came from. 

You see in my case I had that gut feeling, but I needed to be sure infidelity had occurred, for my own personal reasons. I never found anything, and believe me I tore our home apart and then flipped it upside down. The not knowing was slowly killing me, she could have stepped up at any time here but didn't. To get my answers I made her feel safe, if we divorced o would still love and do whatever I could for her. So my getting her to feel safe was genuine and sincere for her well being as well as my own. To say I manipulated her, I don't see it that way, I see it as getting the truth before we detonate a second bomb that will affect more then just the four of us. The four of us is, the boys, her, and me. Collateral damage would be the rest of both of our extended families. Thankfully, my tenacity for the truth has us in reconciliation. I own the mistakes I brought to the marriage, as does she. She also owns her affair solely. To say I will trust her 100% again probably will take a long time, if ever, and she understands this. If she came on here she would tell you she doesn't deserve 100% trust from me. She HOPES that in the future I will trust her fully, but at this time I simply don't. 

Your post above in my opinion, laced with bitterness is the best I can describe it. I, along with cowboy, deserve to know the truth about our marriages. You are entitled to your opinion, but if you call what I did as manipulation you are far less intelligent than I thought. I'm not trying to be mean, nor am I calling you stupid, but you are far from the truth and your comment above is wrong. On many occasions I could have treated her like a POS to get my information, but the way I went about it showed love and understanding. When I need to find the truth I look up and down and side to side, I try to see all angles and not make a knee jerk decision. As bad as she has hurt me, I still consider my actions so I don't hurt her hardly at all. She is a human being who is fallible, I have accepted her with her flaws. 
@sokillme, while there are no guarantees she won't cheat again, I'm confident that she won't. As for my employment, no worries, in less then a year my pension is very safe. I will say though that I'm flattered for your concern, your post came across as the same as this one I'm quoting, bitter. In my opinion therapy may do the both of you well.
@Cowboy, I will say this, once you push on the pedal for the truth, don't let up. Answer everything with try again, it will take close to twenty responses before you starting getting close to the truth. And even then say try again. This is where I went wrong, I got frustrated and walked away from the lies, TAM would have done me wonders if I had found it sooner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

drifting on said:


> jld,
> 
> This actually stopped me dead in my tracks, I read this three times and my d-day began to slowly play in my head. So few words spoken, but the meaning and truth inside it is amazing. My wife tried to control every aspect regarding her infidelity leading up to d-day. The lies and deception down to just what exactly I thought. My wife tried to control all of it, but the dam sprung a small leak and the control began to dissipate before her eyes. I had started to make her feel safe, I began to support her and *coddle *her to get to the truth. She didn't see that coming, and on the 20th of January, 2014 I got my full confession. *The key to that was making her feel safe, to which I can tell you infuriated me beyond imagination, but I got my desired result. *Cowboy, I hope you understand what @jld is saying here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





drifting on said:


> jld
> 
> I had started to make her feel safe when we began MC, it had been over two and a half years since the affair.* I sincerely needed to know the truth, needed to know what I could accept, needed to know if the marriage had a chance, and if the boys were mine biologically.* I read your response above, and truthfully, your response infuriated me. Sadly I see that you are intelligent in regards to infidelity, but I really question where your above response came from.
> 
> You see in my case I had that gut feeling, but *I needed to be sure infidelity had occurred, for my own personal reasons. I never found anything, and believe me I tore our home apart and then flipped it upside down. The not knowing was slowly killing me,* she could have stepped up at any time here but didn't. To get my answers I made her feel safe, if we divorced o would still love and do whatever I could for her. So my getting her to feel safe was genuine and sincere for her well being as well as my own. To say I manipulated her, I don't see it that way, I see it as getting the truth before we detonate a second bomb that will affect more then just the four of us. The four of us is, the boys, her, and me. Collateral damage would be the rest of both of our extended families. Thankfully, my tenacity for the truth has us in reconciliation. I own the mistakes I brought to the marriage, as does she. She also owns her affair solely. To say I will trust her 100% again probably will take a long time, if ever, and she understands this. If she came on here she would tell you she doesn't deserve 100% trust from me. She HOPES that in the future I will trust her fully, but at this time I simply don't.
> 
> Your post above in my opinion, laced with bitterness is the best I can describe it. I, along with cowboy, deserve to know the truth about our marriages. You are entitled to your opinion, but if you call what I did as manipulation you are far less intelligent than I thought. I'm not trying to be mean, nor am I calling you stupid, but you are far from the truth and your comment above is wrong. On many occasions I could have treated her like a POS to get my information, but the way I went about it showed love and understanding. When I need to find the truth I look up and down and side to side, I try to see all angles and not make a knee jerk decision. *As bad as she has hurt me, I still consider my actions so I don't hurt her hardly at all.* She is a human being who is fallible, I have accepted her with her flaws.
> 
> @sokillme, while there are no guarantees she won't cheat again, I'm confident that she won't. As for my employment, no worries, in less then a year my pension is very safe. I will say though that I'm flattered for your concern, your post came across as the same as this one I'm quoting, bitter. In my opinion therapy may do the both of you well.
> 
> @Cowboy, I will say this, once you push on the pedal for the truth, don't let up. Answer everything with try again, it will take close to twenty responses before you starting getting close to the truth. And even then say try again. This is where I went wrong, I got frustrated and walked away from the lies, TAM would have done me wonders if I had found it sooner.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Show your therapist these two passages, do. She can surely explain better than I how you are justifying your manipulation.


----------



## drifting on

jld said:


> Show your therapist these two passages, do. She can surely explain better than I how you are justifying your manipulation.




I see her Monday night, I'll pass on the passages as you requested. I can also tell you why I was infuriated, because she cheated, because she lied, and because she was too weak to admit it. So if you think I manipulated her you are incorrect. My coddling her was sincere, my making her feel safe was sincere, my therapist tells me now I still protect her. My therapist tells me I should let her fall at times, but I don't, I'm her husband, I took vows to her before God. I have beliefs that I hold firm to, and even after her confession I didn't hurt her hardly at all. Believe what you want jld, I always wondered why people throw jabs at you, thank you for making it perfectly clear. So as not to thread jack Cowboys thread why don't you just pm your response to me. 

Cowboy, I stand by what I say earlier.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

drifting on said:


> I see her Monday night, I'll pass on the passages as you requested. I can also tell you why I was infuriated, because she cheated, because she lied, and because she was too weak to admit it. So if you think I manipulated her you are incorrect. My coddling her was sincere, my making her feel safe was sincere, my therapist tells me now I still protect her. My therapist tells me I should let her fall at times, but I don't, I'm her husband, I took vows to her before God. I have beliefs that I hold firm to, and even after her confession I didn't hurt her hardly at all. Believe what you want jld, I always wondered why people throw jabs at you, thank you for making it perfectly clear. So as not to thread jack Cowboys thread why don't you just pm your response to me.
> 
> Cowboy, I stand by what I say earlier.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Start a thread if you want. I prefer that to pm.

Back to you, Cowboy.


----------



## drifting on

jld said:


> Start a thread if you want. I prefer that to pm.
> 
> Back to you, Cowboy.




LOL!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cowboy2

jld said:


> Cowboy, why were all those people, including her mother, believing and supporting her?


If this was the question you were referring to my short answer is I don't know, I am not them.

I can guess with a large degree of confidence that she told them the marriage was unhappy for her at that time and then built onto the deception from there. Probably stuff like I don't listen to her, she isn't appreciated, etc. Things that built onto her story of being unhappy at that time. The reality is SHE was unhappy.....in general, the marriage and me was a good place to place the blame to justify her affair. As to why the friends and her mother believed and supported her it's probably because they aren't quality people.

Our talk Tuesday evening broke down on this very subject. One of the biggest if not the biggest issues for me and a major reason why I don't trust her is she told me our marriage was unhappy then and I believed it. She then kept feeding me this so I got us into MC, ordered Gottman books, etc. Meanwhile while I was focusing on why our marriage was so bad (unbeknownst to me previously) she continued to get her fix. Her emotionally manupilation is probably the biggest hurdle for me and a major reason I am finally facing all this to see if I can get passed it. 

When I push her on why the marriage was unhappy then she gets uncomfortable, mixes up dates on things, tries to divert the topic, etc. because it makes her look inside and she hates doing that.


----------



## sokillme

> , while there are no guarantees she won't cheat again, I'm confident that she won't. As for my employment, no worries, in less then a year my pension is very safe. I will say though that I'm flattered for your concern, your post came across as the same as this one I'm quoting, bitter. In my opinion therapy may do the both of you well


I'm not bitter my friend, my wife hasn't cheated on me so there is no reason to be bitter, I just warning you if your wife cheated because she didn't feel safe, unless she has dealt with that she will cheat again if she doesn't feel safe. Your job security has nothing to do with that, could be your health or something you have no control over.


----------



## sokillme

Cowboy2 said:


> If this was the question you were referring to my short answer is I don't know, I am not them.
> 
> I can guess with a large degree of confidence that she told them the marriage was unhappy for her at that time and then built onto the deception from there. Probably stuff like I don't listen to her, she isn't appreciated, etc. Things that built onto her story of being unhappy at that time. The reality is SHE was unhappy.....in general, the marriage and me was a good place to place the blame to justify her affair. As to why the friends and her mother believed and supported her it's probably because they aren't quality people.
> 
> Our talk Tuesday evening broke down on this very subject. One of the biggest if not the biggest issues for me and a major reason why I don't trust her is she told me our marriage was unhappy then and I believed it. She then kept feeding me this so I got us into MC, ordered Gottman books, etc. Meanwhile while I was focusing on why our marriage was so bad (unbeknownst to me previously) she continued to get her fix. Her emotionally manupilation is probably the biggest hurdle for me and a major reason I am finally facing all this to see if I can get passed it.
> 
> When I push her on why the marriage was unhappy then she gets uncomfortable, mixes up dates on things, tries to divert the topic, etc. because it makes her look inside and she hates doing that.


This seems to be typical of WS, the marriage was probably unhappy because she was putting all her emotional resources into the other man. You could do better Cowboy.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Cowboy2 said:


> If this was the question you were referring to my short answer is I don't know, I am not them.
> 
> 
> When I push her on why the marriage was unhappy then she gets uncomfortable, mixes up dates on things, tries to divert the topic, etc. because it makes her look inside and she hates doing that.


She's baiting you, Cowboy2.

She's trying to get you to see that if her family was with her, she probably had a good reason to cheat. 

Then, she'll likely say that your wife won't tell you because she is afraid or knows you won't believe her. 

Whether that's how it goes or not, the deal is, it is your fault, you just haven't figured out why. Once you do, you can work on yourself and your wife will come around and never cheat again. Well, as long as you don't do anything new she doesn't like. Still, it will be your fault. And, you'll have to change again. 

Bottom line? You are not making your wife happy. You don't do things properly and if you figure out how to change, there will eventually be another reason to cheat, because you cannot make someone else happy, only yourself. You cannot make anyone choose to do what you would like or respect you, or love you, or respect your marriage. You can't make anyone do anything, even stop blaming everyone else for their own choices.


----------



## larry.gray

Nucking Futs said:


> Read enough threads with betrayed husbands and you'll see it's jld's default position.


Not that it's just the default position, but that the point nees to be made 25 times per thread.


----------



## TRy

Cowboy2 said:


> When I push her on why the marriage was unhappy then she gets uncomfortable, mixes up dates on things, tries to divert the topic, etc. because it makes her look inside and she hates doing that.


 Major studies show that there are addictive drugs released into the brain by our bodies only during the first few years of a romantic relationship. These brain drugs have a similar impact on the brain as cocaine. Production of these brain drugs goes down every year until eventually they stop being produced (approximately 6 years). When an affair partner reintroduces these drugs to the cheater, this makes being around the long term spouse seem boring and even irritating by comparison, especially when the cheater starts viewing the spouse as the person that is holding them back from fully experiencing and enjoying the relationship (and the brain drugs) with the affair partner. Cheaters will also look for reasons to be unhappy with the spouse so as to alleviate the guilt that they are feeling for their cheating. Since no human is perfect, they will always be able to find fault with their spouse if they want to. Over time the cheater will start to believe their own lies about the spouse and will in fact be unhappy with the spouse. The brain drugs are often called the affair fog as the spouse no longer thinks clearly when under the addiction. The bottom line is that although unfair, the unhappiness is real to the cheater, and there is often little that you could have done about it since it is unrealistic for a cheater to try hold you to an impossible standard of perfection that they do not come close to holding themselves to.

Think of all the things that an alcoholic says and does to justify their drinking, and you have a better understanding of a cheater addicted to an affair partner.


----------



## Cowboy2

TRy said:


> Major studies show that there are addictive drugs released into the brain by our bodies only during the first few years of a romantic relationship. These brain drugs have a similar impact on the brain as cocaine. Production of these brain drugs goes down every year until eventually they stop being produced (approximately 6 years). When an affair partner reintroduces these drugs to the cheater, this makes being around the long term spouse seem boring and even irritating by comparison, especially when the cheater starts viewing the spouse as the person that is holding them back from fully experiencing and enjoying the relationship (and the brain drugs) with the affair partner. Cheaters will also look for reasons to be unhappy with the spouse so as to alleviate the guilt that they are feeling for their cheating. Since no human is perfect, they will always be able to find fault with their spouse if they want to. Over time the cheater will start to believe their own lies about the spouse and will in fact be unhappy with the spouse. The brain drugs are often called the affair fog as the spouse no longer thinks clearly when under the addiction. The bottom line is that although unfair, the unhappiness is real to the cheater, and there is often little that you could have done about it since it is unrealistic for a cheater to try hold you to an impossible standard of perfection that they do not come close to holding themselves to.
> 
> Think of all the things that an alcoholic says and does to justify their drinking, and you have a better understanding of a cheater addicted to an affair partner.


Wonderfully explained, thank you for this. I have a close family member recently begin recovery from alcoholism, it ended his 24 year marriage.

Has anyone had luck working with a therapist post affair? I don't know if it would make a difference but I'm looking into it.


----------



## jld

Cowboy2 said:


> If this was the question you were referring to my short answer is I don't know, I am not them.
> 
> I can guess with a large degree of confidence that she told them the marriage was unhappy for her at that time and then built onto the deception from there. Probably stuff like I don't listen to her, she isn't appreciated, etc. Things that built onto her story of being unhappy at that time. The reality is SHE was unhappy.....in general, the marriage and me was a good place to place the blame to justify her affair. *As to why the friends and her mother believed and supported her it's probably because they aren't quality people.*
> 
> Our talk Tuesday evening broke down on this very subject. One of the biggest if not the biggest issues for me and a major reason why I don't trust her is she told me our marriage was unhappy then and I believed it. She then kept feeding me this so I got us into MC, ordered Gottman books, etc. Meanwhile while I was focusing on why our marriage was so bad (unbeknownst to me previously) she continued to get her fix. Her emotionally manupilation is probably the biggest hurdle for me and a major reason I am finally facing all this to see if I can get passed it.
> 
> When I push her on why the marriage was unhappy then she gets uncomfortable, mixes up dates on things, tries to divert the topic, etc. because it makes her look inside and she hates doing that.


The bolded could be true. Some people may just be low quality. They may attract other low quality folks and all support each other. Makes sense why you would not be interested in repairing a relationship with someone like that. 

The other possibility is that they all see something that you do not, something that if you could see it, could help you in your relationship with your wife. That is, if you are interested in making things better with her. You are not obliged to.

I would agree that if she is truly a low quality person, and there are no kids (?), it would be easier and better for you to just let her go. It is when there are children involved that things become complicated.


----------



## Cowboy2

They don't see something that I don't. I'm pretty in tune with the dynamics of our marriage. I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but the crap she told them simply isn't reality. Well except for me looking at her phone which was absolutely true. To put it in perspective I'd never done it before her affair. So since she had an active affair and the lies kept flowing so I'd check her phone I was then a controlling person. In a twisted way I can see that until I look at the cause & effect.

I've done my part to work on the marriage. That's not where I'm at now.


----------



## TAMAT

Cowboy,

I think it is premature for therapy, since your WW has never been honest with you and is likely still in her affair mentally speaking as her addiction to OM remains in place. It also seems that while the affair has ended as a physical event your WW has never fallen back in love with you. 

Tamat


----------



## TRy

Cowboy2 said:


> Well except for me looking at her phone which was absolutely true. To put it in perspective I'd never done it before her affair. So since she had an active affair and the lies kept flowing so I'd check her phone I was then a controlling person. In a twisted way I can see that until I look at the cause & effect.


 Other than when in the bathroom, in a healthy marriage there should be no expectations of privacy between spouses as there should be nothing to hide. It is amazing that cheater try to equate you investigating when you realize that something is wrong, with being just as bad as them cheating, because your investigating shows that you do not trust them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cowboy2

TRy said:


> Cowboy2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well except for me looking at her phone which was absolutely true. To put it in perspective I'd never done it before her affair. So since she had an active affair and the lies kept flowing so I'd check her phone I was then a controlling person. In a twisted way I can see that until I look at the cause & effect.
> 
> 
> 
> Other than when in the bathroom, in a healthy marriage there should be no expectations of privacy between spouses as there should be nothing to hide. It is amazing that cheater try to equate you investigating when you realize that something is wrong, with being just as bad as them cheating, because your investigating shows that you do not trust them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...

YUP. My thoughts exactly. If you got nothing to hide there is no issue.


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## MyRevelation

Cowboy2 said:


> YUP. My thoughts exactly. If you got nothing to hide there is no issue.


Why do you keep *****-footing around with this, keeping yourself in perpetual limbo?

You may not be dealing with an active A, but as long as secrets are being kept from you, and enablers are being protected, YOU are in LIMBO, unable to R and unwilling to D.

In my experience, the quickest path out of LIMBO is a well delivered and defended ultimatum. You simply state what it takes for you to continue in R, and be willing to accept either outcome. You will either achieve piece of mind and equal footing to continue in R or you will get a fresh start on a new life through D ... either of which are preferable to the continued state of LIMBO.


----------



## MyRevelation

Cowboy,

I’d like to share a personal experience from just an hour or so ago as a warning that even if you stay in R, this stuff just never seems to go completely away, and also for me to help purge some triggering thoughts.

We are just coming off of a pretty good run recently. We spent a very good week of the 4th at our lake house and just took a couple of days off to enjoy an out of town concert of two of our favorite oldies this week. As I’ve said before, we’ve got a pretty good thing going, and recently it’s been particularly good. Well, as things go, we had a minor dust up last night over something trivial in the overall scheme of things, but things were still relatively cool this morning as we got ready for work. 

Earlier in this thread, I’d shared that we had cut 3 of my W’s enabling friends out of our life after D-Day. So, today at lunch, I stopped by the local Farmer’s Market for some fresh veggies for this weekend, and unexpectedly came face to face with one of the 20+ year personal friends we’d cut out of our lives. It was awkward and I managed a mumbled “hello”, but she wanted to chat … I just walked away without further comment. We later had another awkward moment without any words spoken at the checkout.

Now, I live in a very small town, and amazingly I can count on 1 hand the number of times our paths have crossed since D-Day, but today, being in an already down mood, I triggered, which caused me to dwell on the past on my drive back to the office and I realized I’m 3 days away from it being D-Day + 9 years. Give that some thought … even in a successful R, at 9 years out, I’m still dealing with the aftertaste of this **** sandwich.

I’ve been D’d for 25 years from my cheating XW and I’ve never once triggered over that situation. Glean from that info what you will.

Excuse me for mucking up your thread with my “stuff”, but it seemed somewhat pertinent and I needed to vent.


----------



## drifting on

TRy said:


> Major studies show that there are addictive drugs released into the brain by our bodies only during the first few years of a romantic relationship. These brain drugs have a similar impact on the brain as cocaine. Production of these brain drugs goes down every year until eventually they stop being produced (approximately 6 years). When an affair partner reintroduces these drugs to the cheater, this makes being around the long term spouse seem boring and even irritating by comparison, especially when the cheater starts viewing the spouse as the person that is holding them back from fully experiencing and enjoying the relationship (and the brain drugs) with the affair partner. Cheaters will also look for reasons to be unhappy with the spouse so as to alleviate the guilt that they are feeling for their cheating. Since no human is perfect, they will always be able to find fault with their spouse if they want to. Over time the cheater will start to believe their own lies about the spouse and will in fact be unhappy with the spouse. The brain drugs are often called the affair fog as the spouse no longer thinks clearly when under the addiction. The bottom line is that although unfair, the unhappiness is real to the cheater, and there is often little that you could have done about it since it is unrealistic for a cheater to try hold you to an impossible standard of perfection that they do not come close to holding themselves to.
> 
> Think of all the things that an alcoholic says and does to justify their drinking, and you have a better understanding of a cheater addicted to an affair partner.




This is a great post cowboy, read it until it sinks in deep. The only thing to add to this will probably make you want to walk from her. Love. Understand that love is a choice, you have chosen to love your wife, your wife has chosen to love OM. That is because you have to work at marriage, it's not a fairy tale with unicorns flying all around you, it's work. When you marry someone it's because you have found the mate that works best with you. You love, honor, cherish, and communicate with them like you would no other. You have chosen to do this and you marry that person, you now enter a union that is between the both of you. No other person will get that from you and no other person will get that from your spouse. But your wife chose to see the flaws in you, flaws that many people may have. I know my wife isn't perfect, she wasn't perfect before I married her either, but I accepted the flaws I could see and she was perfect for me. What I foolishly gave after more then twenty years was blind trust. She took that blind trust and did what I would say was the unthinkable, she cheated. To me, I didn't think she was capable, but she is capable and proved that to me. 

Cowboy not saying to divorce, only you know what is right for you, but the post quoted above is truth. Your wife has found her way to justify her actions towards you. Trust me I got the same justifications from my wife in the beginning, but then she grew as a person and realized how screwed up her thinking had become. She felt true remorse and has owned her actions, choices, and flaws. She has become a better person as a result of this, but many people here will tell you how vile my wife is. As hard as this is to say, they are correct, she was what they have all said. But she has changed, she has grown, and she has become a person I have chosen to give another chance. There are many here who disagree with my choice, but the choice I have made is the best for me. 

Your wife cowboy has to get to the point that she wants this marriage with you. From what you have posted I'm not sure that she has, in all honesty I think she has stayed out of fear. I say this because of what you have posted and because she still feels she may have a chance with OM. Sorry if this causes you distress but I don't feel that your wife is committed to your marriage. If she were committed, she would ON HER OWN cut everything and everyone from YOUR lives that were associated with her affair. This would include people and her behavior. Showing affection and paying attention to you is not change, changing how she thinks, her actions, and OWNING her actions would be the first step. That would make you feel safe, thus making you to commit or decide to divorce. The fact she hasn't done anything has started you to check out, and this causes resentment which is very difficult to overcome. Best of luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MJJEAN

TRy said:


> Major studies show that there are addictive drugs released into the brain by our bodies only during the first few years of a romantic relationship. These brain drugs have a similar impact on the brain as cocaine. Production of these brain drugs goes down every year until eventually they stop being produced (approximately 6 years). When an affair partner reintroduces these drugs to the cheater, this makes being around the long term spouse seem boring and even irritating by comparison, especially when the cheater starts viewing the spouse as the person that is holding them back from fully experiencing and enjoying the relationship (and the brain drugs) with the affair partner. Cheaters will also look for reasons to be unhappy with the spouse so as to alleviate the guilt that they are feeling for their cheating. Since no human is perfect, they will always be able to find fault with their spouse if they want to. Over time the cheater will start to believe their own lies about the spouse and will in fact be unhappy with the spouse. The brain drugs are often called the affair fog as the spouse no longer thinks clearly when under the addiction. The bottom line is that although unfair, the unhappiness is real to the cheater, and there is often little that you could have done about it since it is unrealistic for a cheater to try hold you to an impossible standard of perfection that they do not come close to holding themselves to.
> 
> Think of all the things that an alcoholic says and does to justify their drinking, and you have a better understanding of a cheater addicted to an affair partner.


Urmmm, not universally true. In some situations, the WS is actually unhappy pre affair.

Everyone has their own perspective. Just like a cop can ask 5 witnesses to a crime and get 5 different descriptions of the incident, a counselor can ask a married couple and get two different descriptions of the marriage. A happy marriage for Spouse A is not necessarily a happy marriage for Spouse B.


----------



## drifting on

sokillme said:


> I'm not bitter my friend, my wife hasn't cheated on me so there is no reason to be bitter, I just warning you if your wife cheated because she didn't feel safe, unless she has dealt with that she will cheat again if she doesn't feel safe. Your job security has nothing to do with that, could be your health or something you have no control over.




Sokillme

From expierience I can tell you that the clear visions you hold regarding infidelity will disappear faster then ever thought imaginable after infidelity. I had visions before it happened to me, and they vanished without even a trace of smoke in the air. I stood alone, confused, hurting, and quite frankly destroyed. Disbelief about your entire life creeps into your head, nothing makes sense, even going to work each morning seemed wrong. Cowboy is in limbo, he doesn't know the truth, the full extent of the affair, if it was physical, he is standing exactly where I did. Even after I got a confession I can't tell you if I have the full truth. Instead the betrayed must decide if they can accept what they think is the full truth. I think from what cowboy posted there is so much more to this affair, he will need to wade through the muck to find that answer. It's not easy, nor is it anything you wanted to do, but from where he is standing I understand his confusion. You say your wife hasn't cheated, but that doesn't mean you have not gone through infidelity. It means you have not gone through infidelity with your wife, but what about in the past? Your posts sometimes have a taste of bitterness, hence your username, but if you truly haven't gone through infidelity then maybe have some compassion. When you stand alone after infidelity, know that feeling, know that pain, know what it feels like to have your life nuked and everything feel foreign to you. I get the 2X4 analogy, but it isn't needed as often as it is given. Thanks for listening, sincerely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifting on

Cowboy2 said:


> They don't see something that I don't. I'm pretty in tune with the dynamics of our marriage. I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but the crap she told them simply isn't reality. Well except for me looking at her phone which was absolutely true. To put it in perspective I'd never done it before her affair. So since she had an active affair and the lies kept flowing so I'd check her phone I was then a controlling person. In a twisted way I can see that until I look at the cause & effect.
> 
> I've done my part to work on the marriage. That's not where I'm at now.




Don't think you are controlling cowboy, instead know that you attempted to protect your marriage. I consider an OM as an invasion, an invasion into a land he is not welcome that in turn causes me to enact warfare. In essence that is exactly what happened, OM invaded your marriage and the first line of defense, your wife, did nothing to stop the invasion. Your wife became a willing participant to the invasion as mine had. What you need to do is exactly what you would do in war, confront the OM directly head on and flank around isolating your wife to where she is cut off from OM. This is why any and all persons who enabled, supported, or knew anything of the affair are removed and silenced from your marriage. If there is anything to state to your wife it's this, I married you, if you need advice come talk to me, I did not marry your coworkers, friends, or your mother. Any discussion of our marriage is between us and us only. When she understands this only then can you move forward with your Union. You are no more controlling to her then I was of manipulation. I protected what is rightfully mine, and by that I mean my marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifting on

MJJEAN said:


> Urmmm, universally true. In some situations, the WS is actually unhappy pre affair.
> 
> Everyone has their own perspective. Just like a cop can ask 5 witnesses to a crime and get 5 different descriptions of the incident, a counselor can ask a married couple and get two different descriptions of the marriage. A happy marriage for Spouse A is not necessarily a happy marriage for Spouse B.




Sorry, I had to throw this in for humors sake and not trying to downplay what you have stated. But.....I get five different accounts of what happened if those five witnesses are the criminals friends. Has happened more then once is all I can say!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MJJEAN

drifting on said:


> Sorry, I had to throw this in for humors sake and not trying to downplay what you have stated. But.....I get five different accounts of what happened if those five witnesses are the criminals friends. Has happened more then once is all I can say!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:grin2: 

Gah, I meant NOT universally true, but one of the dogs had to pee, DS wanted a ride to the city park to hunt Pokemon with his friends, who also needed rides, and I had to grocery shop. Proof read fail!

While I believe the "fog" exists, I rarely see people acknowledge that maybe the marriage sucked, maybe the WS was actually unhappy before they met their AP, and maybe the fog didn't cause the WS to view their spouse and relationship more harshly than deserved.


----------



## sokillme

drifting on said:


> Sokillme
> 
> From expierience I can tell you that the clear visions you hold regarding infidelity will disappear faster then ever thought imaginable after infidelity. I had visions before it happened to me, and they vanished without even a trace of smoke in the air. I stood alone, confused, hurting, and quite frankly destroyed. Disbelief about your entire life creeps into your head, nothing makes sense, even going to work each morning seemed wrong. Cowboy is in limbo, he doesn't know the truth, the full extent of the affair, if it was physical, he is standing exactly where I did. Even after I got a confession I can't tell you if I have the full truth. Instead the betrayed must decide if they can accept what they think is the full truth. I think from what cowboy posted there is so much more to this affair, he will need to wade through the muck to find that answer. It's not easy, nor is it anything you wanted to do, but from where he is standing I understand his confusion. You say your wife hasn't cheated, but that doesn't mean you have not gone through infidelity. It means you have not gone through infidelity with your wife, but what about in the past? Your posts sometimes have a taste of bitterness, hence your username, but if you truly haven't gone through infidelity then maybe have some compassion. When you stand alone after infidelity, know that feeling, know that pain, know what it feels like to have your life nuked and everything feel foreign to you. I get the 2X4 analogy, but it isn't needed as often as it is given. Thanks for listening, sincerely.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My first love cheated on me. I had proposed and she didn't accept so got suspicious and caught her reading her emails. I lasted for about a month trying to put back the broken pieces, I had those same feeling, finally I couldn't even look at myself and ghosted. I have not talked to her again, 15 years later. Now if we had kids I would have had to. However I still only had about a month in me for r. I am just to proud to be with someone who would do that to me. I would rather be alone then have a repaired relationship that will never be what it once was. I was willing to risk being alone forever for a new relationship that could be all I wanted. Don't think that I wasn't severely depressed for about a year. It was very much the worst year of my life, but every day got easier. I got my first job in my new career. It was a good job more money in a year then I had made in my entire life. The first day on the drive home I cried because she wouldn't be there to share it with me. 

However about a year after I dumped this woman I met my wife to be. So that only reinforces that there are better people out there. So if my wife were to cheat, I would be devastated but I would have no problem moving on. There is always someone new. 

I am in no way bitter that my ex cheated on me. I got my justice, I never spoke to her again, then I met someone better. I have no idea what she is doing in her life. I hope she wised up and is happy. She had a mother who abandoned her and she was young so maybe she did learn. Point is I don't really care. I traded up anyway. My wife is a much better catch. Besides everything else my wife has character, and that is worth more then anything else. 

No I am not bitter but I am angry but not for myself. Yes I remember how I felt how debilitating it is. I remember when I found out, (reading her emails by the way, where she actually joked about my proposal and how she was thinking about the other guy). True story at that moment I had an out of body experience. Floated out of my body and saw myself from above sitting at my computer reading the email, then I floated back. It was surreal to say the least. I identify with all the emotions you wrote, but I am angry because it is so awful what these people do to others and they get away with it because the BS doesn't know there is better out there. I am also sad because I know a better life is out there for the BS, but they won't go for it. I want them to get angry like I did, that anger got me through the first 6 months.

Also I think I very rarely give a person who stays a hard time, I will point out that staying is probably not the best option. I will point out how awful their WS is because it is the truth. I know that is hard but it doesn't make it less so. I only get on WS when they allowing themselves to be abused, and only then I tell them to get some help. Being cheated on over and over again means there is something wrong with you if you stay. However I am starting to change my thinking about this. I am starting to think that maybe the multiple betrayed WS likes the sympathy and that is why they stay.


----------



## sokillme

MJJEAN said:


> :grin2:
> 
> Gah, I meant NOT universally true, but one of the dogs had to pee, DS wanted a ride to the city park to hunt Pokemon with his friends, who also needed rides, and I had to grocery shop. Proof read fail!
> 
> While I believe the "fog" exists, I rarely see people acknowledge that maybe the marriage sucked, maybe the WS was actually unhappy before they met their AP, and maybe the fog didn't cause the WS to view their spouse and relationship more harshly than deserved.


All that my be true but I don't think the fog, or poor treatment has any bearing on wither the WS did wrong. Bad behavior doesn't justify others bad behavior. If the WS was unhappy they could have left. Personally I really don't care how bad the WS had it. If you cheat then as far as I am concerned you are an abuser.


----------



## MJJEAN

sokillme said:


> All that my be true but I don't think the fog, or poor treatment has any bearing on wither the WS did wrong. Bad behavior doesn't justify others bad behavior. If the WS was unhappy they could have left. Personally I really don't care how bad the WS had it. If you cheat then as far as I am concerned you are an abuser.


Which is fine, but not very helpful. This portion of the discussion isn't about right or wrong. It's about people understanding their role in what happens to them.

I'd almost wish to think the way you do. So black and white. Real life doesn't work that way.


----------



## sokillme

MJJEAN said:


> Which is fine, but not very helpful. This portion of the discussion isn't about right or wrong. It's about people understanding their role in what happens to them.
> 
> I'd almost wish to think the way you do. So black and white. Real life doesn't work that way.


Right and wrong does at least when you are talking about cheating. Admitting you did wrong period, it the fist step in healing. If you couch it you won't change. If you read the wayward section of SI the only ones who truly any hope of moving forward with good marriages are the ones who feel the same way. The ones who look for excuses will not make it. 

By the way real life has worked just fine thinking the way I have for 44 years. Married 13, you should try it.


----------



## Marc878

There doesn't appear to be much to work with in this situation. It's one man against a mob.

Why stay?


----------



## TRy

MJJEAN said:


> Urmmm, not universally true. In some situations, the WS is actually unhappy pre affair.
> 
> Everyone has their own perspective. Just like a cop can ask 5 witnesses to a crime and get 5 different descriptions of the incident, a counselor can ask a married couple and get two different descriptions of the marriage. A happy marriage for Spouse A is not necessarily a happy marriage for Spouse B.


 I never said that it was universally true in all situations. My discussion was in direct response to the OP's specific situation where he stated "When I push her on why the marriage was unhappy then she gets uncomfortable, mixes up dates on things, tries to divert the topic, etc. because it makes her look inside and she hates doing that." Since my goal was to try to give useful advice to the OP, and since the OP found my advice helpful, I am OK with it not applying to every possible situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MJJEAN

TRy said:


> I never said that it was universally true in all situations. My discussion was in direct response to the OP's specific situation where he stated "When I push her on why the marriage was unhappy then she gets uncomfortable, mixes up dates on things, tries to divert the topic, etc. because it makes her look inside and she hates doing that." Since my goal was to try to give useful advice to the OP, and since the OP found my advice helpful, I am OK with it not applying to every possible situation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was offering another point of view I hope can also be helpful.

Just because OP's wife is uncomfortable talking about why she was unhappy or gets the dates fudged doesn't mean that she wasn't legitimately unhappy.

OP says the marriage was happy. What we don't know is if his wife also thought the marriage was happy. It's easier to blame the fog than it is to accept that maybe the WS was unhappy with the relationship prior to the affair.

Sure, it's possible everything was great and the wife rewrote history. It's also possible she was very unhappy and doesn't know how to communicate what she felt and why or doesn't want to because she fears hurting OP even more by being critical of him and/or their marriage.


----------



## drifting on

Cowboy,

Who paid for the burner phone your MIL have to your wife? See, I had some down time, and down time tends to be very sarcastic for me. I plot little mind games to play, sort of like a reality check for the stupid. If your MIL bought the phone and minutes I think you should go to her house and talk. When you arrive tell her that her daughter is checking your phone much like you did. You feel just like her daughter that you should have the right to choose such friends. But communicating on the phone you have and her daughter checking it, you feel that mom should buy you a burner phone to escape the controlling part of her daughter. 

If she looks at you funny just tell her all that she had done to prevent you from having friends. Of course you should also assure mom that you have no intention of using the burner phone to contact this younger, single, prettier version of her daughter. Instead just tell mom that you should have some privacy in contacting your friends like her daughter got to. Who knows, maybe you will get a new phone out of the deal!! 

When mom says no, ask her why the sudden shift in enabling affairs? Why is it a problem now? Your daughter can cheat but I must be held to stricter rules? Then ask where and how much the phone was and tell her you'll go get it yourself and she needn't worry. Then just up and leave. Don't go home for several hours and place your phone on vibrate. Watch how fast mom and daughter light up everyone's phones. Just sit back and eat the imaginary popcorn while smiling broadly. Trust me I had several little plans I could have done with my wife, but chose not too. However, these little plans sometimes should be played out so that people see just how stupid they really were.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## honcho

MJJEAN said:


> I was offering another point of view I hope can also be helpful.
> 
> Just because OP's wife is uncomfortable talking about why she was unhappy or gets the dates fudged doesn't mean that she wasn't legitimately unhappy.
> 
> OP says the marriage was happy. What we don't know is if his wife also thought the marriage was happy. It's easier to blame the fog than it is to accept that maybe the WS was unhappy with the relationship prior to the affair.
> 
> Sure, it's possible everything was great and the wife rewrote history. It's also possible she was very unhappy and doesn't know how to communicate what she felt and why or doesn't want to because she fears hurting OP even more by being critical of him and/or their marriage.


She could very well have been unhappy but was/is she blaming the marriage for the unhappiness or was she just not happy. Many people I think do decide the marriage isn't great because it's easy to blame and they don't want to look within themselves. 

People who are generally unhappy or suffer from depression do have a hard time communicating why they are unhappy so they need to blame something. This is part of the riddle in rebuilding a marriage and getting two people content/happy. What part does the marriage play and what part does one own by themselves.


----------



## Nucking Futs

drifting on said:


> Cowboy,
> 
> Who paid for the burner phone your MIL have to your wife? See, I had some down time, and down time tends to be very sarcastic for me. I plot little mind games to play, sort of like a reality check for the stupid. If your MIL bought the phone and minutes I think you should go to her house and talk. When you arrive tell her that her daughter is checking your phone much like you did. You feel just like her daughter that you should have the right to choose such friends. But communicating on the phone you have and her daughter checking it, you feel that mom should buy you a burner phone to escape the controlling part of her daughter.
> 
> If she looks at you funny just tell her all that she had done to prevent you from having friends. Of course you should also assure mom that you have no intention of using the burner phone to contact this younger, single, prettier version of her daughter. Instead just tell mom that you should have some privacy in contacting your friends like her daughter got. Who knows, maybe you will get a new phone out of the deal!!
> 
> When mom says know ask her why the sudden shift in enabling affairs? Why is it a problem now? Your daughter can cheat but I must be held to stricter rules? Then ask where and how much the phone was and tell her you'll got get it yourself and she needn't worry. Then just up and leave. Don't go home for several hours and place your phone on vibrate. Watch how fast mom and daughter light up everyone's phones. Just sit back and eat the imaginary popcorn while smiling broadly. Trust me I had several little plans I could have done with my wife, but chose not too. However, these little plans sometimes should be played out so that people see just how stupid they really were.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You know, you could go down to the public library and get a nice book to read free. :grin2:


----------



## drifting on

Nucking Futs said:


> You know, you could go down to the public library and get a nice book to read free. :grin2:




No, I have to stay from libraries, you can go on their computers and set up fake accounts in various social media totally untraceable and be even more damaging. Definitely need a new hobby, back to sanding the go cart frame.


ETA, by the way, I love your premeditated signature!!


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TRy

MJJEAN said:


> Just because OP's wife is uncomfortable talking about why she was unhappy or gets the dates fudged doesn't mean that she wasn't legitimately unhappy.
> 
> OP says the marriage was happy. What we don't know is if his wife also thought the marriage was happy. It's easier to blame the fog than it is to accept that maybe the WS was unhappy with the relationship prior to the affair.
> 
> Sure, it's possible everything was great and the wife rewrote history. It's also possible she was very unhappy and doesn't know how to communicate what she felt and why or doesn't want to because she fears hurting OP even more by being critical of him and/or their marriage.


 Of course anything is possible, but I must go with the facts at hand. The facts at hand are:

1) The cheating wife has been shamelessly and without remorse rubbing the affair in the OP's face by keeping as her close friends, the same toxic friends that enabled and encouraged the affair. This shows that the the cheater was not being dominated by the OP and that she was not afraid of the OP. I even said earlier that until recently the OP was coming across to me as a doormat. Thus the cheater was free to speak her mind if there were really were real issues in the marriage that the OP could address.

2) The cheater wants to rug sweep and stay in the marriage without even trying to work in a real way with the OP in addressing what supposedly made her unhappy. If there were real issues and he was willing to listen, she would be working on it with him in earnest. This cheater is not doing that.

3) We know that the OP's cheating wife lied and skillfully manipulated the OP as she cheated on him behind his back. Thus I tend to believe the OP over the cheating spouse when it comes down to understand what happened.

4) We know the most cheaters will try to blame shift by reinventing history so as to alleviate guilt, with the cheated on spouse usually trying to fruitlessly work on these false issues to no avail. Thus I tend to not agree with people that tell the cheated on spouse to try to fix their marriage based on the facts as given by the proven liar spouse.

5) I believe that cheating is not an option to address unhappiness in marriage. If the cheater was unhappy, she should have either tried to address the issue, or end the marriage. This cheater did not and is still not doing either of these things. Thus I call bull on her claim that she cheated because she was unhappy.


----------



## Cowboy2

honcho said:


> She could very well have been unhappy but was/is she blaming the marriage for the unhappiness or was she just not happy. Many people I think do decide the marriage isn't great because it's easy to blame and they don't want to look within themselves.
> 
> People who are generally unhappy or suffer from depression do have a hard time communicating why they are unhappy so they need to blame something. This is part of the riddle in rebuilding a marriage and getting two people content/happy. What part does the marriage play and what part does one own by themselves.


This is very close to how I see my situation. She had been depressed for years prior to the affair. It's only been since the beginning of 2015 that she started taking anti-depressants. They are not heavy duty but they've made a difference. 


The ability to communicate or inability more specifically is key. I remember a time about 6 months before the affair when our family was getting ready to head to a neighborhood event and she got really pissed off at something small and broke down crying in our closet. I tried everything I could to console her and see what was wrong to no avail. She finally told me to get out of the house & go and I did as our two daughters were waiting to go. She showed up 30 minutes later and appeared fine. I followed up numerous times that night and later to see if I could help but she was unable to say what was bothering her.


Soon after the affair started she wrote to me about how unhappy she'd been for years. I knew of course she got sad sometimes but nothing to the level she described. I asked her mother if she knew how unhappy my wife had been. Her response: "I had no clue"


Several months later when talking to her mother and actually going to her for advice (funny in retrospect) I told her how my wife was blaming me for so much of the unhappiness she was feeling. Her mother said sounds like she's building a case against you. Yup.


----------



## MJJEAN

@TRy I think you misunderstood. I said afraid to communicate her specific unhappiness to Cowboy because she may be afraid to hurt him. It is often difficult for women to tell their SO's uncomfortable truths because we don't want to hurt their feelings. Now, imagine being the WW who has already deeply hurt her husband. If you were a WW who was already feeling terrible about causing your H pain, would you be eager to tell him what he did or didn't do that made you unhappy and hurt him further?


----------



## bandit.45

MJJEAN said:


> @TRy I think you misunderstood. I said afraid to communicate her specific unhappiness to Cowboy because she may be afraid to hurt him. It is often difficult for women to tell their SO's uncomfortable truths because we don't want to hurt their feelings. Now, imagine being the WW who has already deeply hurt her husband. If you were a WW who was already feeling terrible about causing your H pain, would you be eager to tell him what he did or didn't do that made you unhappy and hurt him further?


So....

She was afraid to say something that might hurt his feelings. So instead she went out and screwed another guy. That was a better alternative. 

Okay I get it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MJJEAN

Banned-It.45 said:


> So....
> 
> She was afraid to say something that might hurt his feelings. So instead she went out and screwed another guy. That was a better alternative.
> 
> Okay I get it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Common WS logic. They think the spouse will never find out and will not be hurt.


----------



## TRy

MJJEAN said:


> @TRy I think you misunderstood. I said afraid to communicate her specific unhappiness to Cowboy because she may be afraid to hurt him. It is often difficult for women to tell their SO's uncomfortable truths because we don't want to hurt their feelings. Now, imagine being the WW who has already deeply hurt her husband. If you were a WW who was already feeling terrible about causing your H pain, would you be eager to tell him what he did or didn't do that made you unhappy and hurt him further?


After I say that "The cheating wife has been shamelessly and without remorse rubbing the affair in the OP's face by keeping as her close friends, the same toxic friends that enabled and encouraged the affair" and you respond to this by telling me that her actions are based on her being "afraid to hurt him"? Are you kidding me? If she cared anything about his feelings she would dropped those toxic friends on her own once he first made it clear that he did not like them around. Instead she has blown off his direct request to drop them. Please stop saying that she cares about hurting him. It is just not true in this case. Her actions speak louder than your words.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dyokemm

Cowboy2 said:


> This morning I provided her a note(with the date so it's documented) before I left for work. I told her I'd had some things on my mind that needed to be addressed soon.
> 
> The note said in order to move forward and see if healing is possible I need 2 things. One was complete and total honestly from her regarding the affair. That would be followed by any questions I have and that I would need to feel her complete honestly. The 2nd thing was those two affair helpers need to be removed from our lives if she wants the marriage to continue.
> 
> Away we go.


So Cowboy,

Have you had ANY progress on either of these two things yet?

Has she written a full timeline or revealed things to fill in the massive holes in her story?

Has she finally agreed that these people need to go?

I notice you posted that you have had several conversations with your WW since you posted these demands.

Is she still fighting you, or can you see some progress (even if it's minimum so far)?


----------



## TAMAT

I suspect Cowboys WW never loved him romantically, and he was only intended to be a short term relationship while WW waited for the right time and circumstances with OM. This happens alot and often the husband is completely unaware.

This realization is crushing for Cowboy and difficult for even his WW to come to grips with, since it is at base a waste of years and even life itself. 

While it's easy to recommend to someone like Cowboy to just divorce it's no so easy to throw away all those years with the prospect of nothing in return except loneliness. 

Tamat


----------



## MattMatt

TRy said:


> After I say that "The cheating wife has been shamelessly and without remorse rubbing the affair in the OP's face by keeping as her close friends, the same toxic friends that enabled and encouraged the affair" and you respond to this by telling me that her actions are based on her being "afraid to hurt him"? Are you kidding me? If she cared anything about his feelings she would dropped those toxic friends on her own once he first made it clear that he did not like them around. Instead she has blown off his direct request to drop them. Please stop saying that she cares about hurting him. It is just not true in this case. Her actions speak louder than your words.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hang on. You, me and probably everyone else on TAM knows they are toxic friends.

BUT!!!! She, the WS, does not know this! 

To her they are the people who helped her when she was down.

They were not judgemental when she had her little mad fling, they guided her through, they were there for her, etc.

If she had come to them and said "I am broke. Will you help me when I rob some banks?

"I'll need somewhere to hide the money, some alibis and you might need to hide me."

They would have been horrified at the idea. 

Yet they helped her smash her husband's heart like it was a bag of light bulbs.

*That* is why they are toxic friends.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 2ntnuf

honcho said:


> She could very well have been unhappy but was/is she blaming the marriage for the unhappiness or was she just not happy. Many people I think do decide the marriage isn't great because it's easy to blame and they don't want to look within themselves.
> 
> People who are generally unhappy or suffer from depression do have a hard time communicating why they are unhappy so they need to blame something. This is part of the riddle in rebuilding a marriage and getting two people content/happy. What part does the marriage play and what part does one own by themselves.


If you want to know what a wife really thinks, just ask her friends. If they are open to telling the truth, they will enlighten you with things you never knew. 

They know the truth about what she is thinking. She is afraid to hurt her husband's feelings by telling him the truth. Or at least that's what I've been told.


----------



## MJJEAN

TRy said:


> After I say that "The cheating wife has been shamelessly and without remorse rubbing the affair in the OP's face by keeping as her close friends, the same toxic friends that enabled and encouraged the affair" and you respond to this by telling me that her actions are based on her being "afraid to hurt him"? Are you kidding me? If she cared anything about his feelings she would dropped those toxic friends on her own once he first made it clear that he did not like them around. Instead she has blown off his direct request to drop them. Please stop saying that she cares about hurting him. It is just not true in this case. Her actions speak louder than your words.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Caring about Cowboy and her friends aren't mutually exclusive.
As explained by, I believe @MattMatt, they aren't toxic friends to her. To her, they are the people who were there for her and supported her and who will continue to be there for her if the marriage does end.


----------



## 2ntnuf

MJJEAN said:


> Caring about Cowboy and her friends aren't mutually exclusive.
> As explained by, I believe @MattMatt, they aren't toxic friends to her. To her, they are the people who were there for her and supported her and who will continue to be there for her if the marriage does end.


See, this right here, I believe. The trouble is, Cowboy will have to accept that his wife was not happy with him. She probably has a myriad of reasons he was not attractive, trustworthy, respectable, loving, caring, empathetic, or meeting some highly important needs. 

We can all agree that no one can meet all the needs of another person. It just isn't possible. As needs change, and they do over a lifetime, these need expressed in a loving, open, honest way without judgement. Reason being is, most men and women don't really understand each other well and need to be told in a simple and direct manner.

So, as we think about this, we realize he still is not meeting her needs, or she would not be so ready to keep those friends or believe they are on her side. If she felt she loved, respected, wanted and felt safe and secure with Cowboy, she would have no need for those friends. She might even finally see that they are toxic to her commitment to her marriage and the rest of a happy life with Cowboy.

Being she does not see these folks as enemies, but as friends, it tells me she has one foot out the door. Either Cowboy works on the issues as his wife sees them, or she finds another man with the help of those faithful friends.

I would not be comfortable around them. 

Cowboy, if you can't swallow your pride and take a dive for your marriage, (because, in the end, it is you that is at complete fault according to your wife)you might as well figure she will not ever be fully committed to the marriage and life with you. 

It's all up to you.


----------



## MJJEAN

@2ntnuf 

Not necessarily that she isn't committed to the marriage, but that she is afraid Cowboy will leave and she will have no one if she doesn't keep these friends.


----------



## 2ntnuf

MJJEAN said:


> @2ntnuf
> 
> Not necessarily that she isn't committed to the marriage, but that she is afraid Cowboy will leave and she will have no one if she doesn't keep these friends.


I don't understand how someone can be committed and be hesitant to trust at the same time?

So, you believe that it was more important for her to have a man in her life, than a certain man? In other words, as long as she wasn't alone, she would be okay, and that's likely why she cheated on him? She would have a man in her life for the things only a man can provide, rather than her husband, whom she believed was intentionally wronging her in some way(s)? At least this new man was a clean slate she didn't have years of resentment built up against?


----------



## MJJEAN

2ntnuf said:


> I don't understand how someone can be committed and be hesitant to trust at the same time?
> 
> So, you believe that it was more important for her to have a man in her life, than a certain man? In other words, as long as she wasn't alone, she would be okay, and that's likely why she cheated on him? She would have a man in her life for the things only a man can provide, rather than her husband, whom she believed was intentionally wronging her in some way(s)? At least this new man was a clean slate she didn't have years of resentment built up against?


No, I think her reluctance to give up her toxic friends is a result of her affair and the fear that Cowboy will decide to leave at some point. Which, realistically, is a fairly common outcome when infidelity is involved.

To her way of thinking, these people had her back even when she was doing something very wrong. If Cowboy leaves, it's safe to assume they'd have her back then, too. If she jettisons her friends in hopes Cowboy will be staying and he does leave, then she is out her support network.


----------



## 2ntnuf

MJJEAN said:


> No, I think her reluctance to give up her toxic friends is a result of her affair and the fear that Cowboy will decide to leave at some point. Which, realistically, is a fairly common outcome when infidelity is involved.


I don't know how then, you could say she is committed to her marriage? 



MJJEAN said:


> To her way of thinking, these people had her back even when she was doing something very wrong. If Cowboy leaves, it's safe to assume they'd have her back then, too. If she jettisons her friends in hopes Cowboy will be staying and he does leave, then she is out her support network.


I don't believe she thought she was doing something very wrong. If she really thought she was doing something very wrong, do you think she is trustworthy? 

Her mom has her back. I doubt she would abandon her. She has proven her solidarity.

Friends come and go throughout life. Rarely do we keep the same friends we had as a child. Don't you think it is just as likely she needs these particular friends to keep an open lifeline to her affair partner?


----------



## MattMatt

2ntnuf said:


> I don't know how then, you could say she is committed to her marriage?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe she thought she was doing something very wrong. If she really thought she was doing something very wrong, do you think she is trustworthy?
> 
> Her mom has her back. I doubt she would abandon her. She has proven her solidarity.
> 
> Friends come and go throughout life. Rarely do we keep the same friends we had as a child. Don't you think it is just as likely she needs these particular friends to keep an open lifeline to her affair partner?


Unless her other friends did not approve of her affair and walked away from her?


----------



## 2ntnuf

MattMatt said:


> Unless her other friends did not approve of her affair and walked away from her?


Then, as friends, they weren't very supportive. The other side of that coin is they felt she was not a friend of their marriage.

And, Cowboy likely should not be friends with his wife, either, because they are about as compatible as any friends of his wife, who abandoned her as unhealthy for their marriage.

It's his decision. I think he'd be better off looking for someone else, but I don't know him well enough to really get behind that statement.


----------



## Nucking Futs

2ntnuf said:


> I don't know how then, you could say she is committed to her marriage?


:iagree:

If this is her thinking she's not all in on the marriage, she's hedging her bet.

Sure would be nice to get clarification from Cowboy on what she's doing.


----------



## MattMatt

2ntnuf said:


> Then, as friends, they weren't very supportive. The other side of that coin is they felt she was not a friend of their marriage.
> 
> And, Cowboy likely should not be friends with his wife, either, because they are about as compatible as any friends of his wife, who abandoned her as unhealthy for their marriage.
> 
> It's his decision. I think he'd be better off looking for someone else, but I don't know him well enough to really get behind that statement.


It depends, in party, what BS she shovelled on them about Cowboy.


----------



## 2ntnuf

MattMatt said:


> It depends, in party, what BS she shovelled on them about Cowboy.


She sure doesn't seem like a very sound investment. Does she?


----------



## MJJEAN

2ntnuf said:


> I don't know how then, you could say she is committed to her marriage?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe she thought she was doing something very wrong. If she really thought she was doing something very wrong, do you think she is trustworthy?
> 
> Her mom has her back. I doubt she would abandon her. She has proven her solidarity.
> 
> Friends come and go throughout life. Rarely do we keep the same friends we had as a child. Don't you think it is just as likely she needs these particular friends to keep an open lifeline to her affair partner?


If she's keeping the friends because she thinks she will need them in case Cowboy leaves, her commitment isn't what she's questioning. She's questioning his.

Of course she knew what she was doing was very wrong. She also chose to do it anyways for her own reasons. Is she trustworthy? Would she do it again? Who knows? That's Cowboy's call.

She doesn't need those particular friends to keep an open line to her AP. If she wanted to keep an open line to her AP, all she has to do is buy a burner phone or use one of thousands of social media apps or games to communicate with him. She wants these people around because she cares about them and they've been there for her.


----------



## farsidejunky

Yo Cowboy, what is the latest?


----------



## Cowboy2

i don't have a huge update at this point, traveled a large part of the week for work which has been very busy.

We did have a talk last weekend and are talking more later today. She has been much more open than before to discuss the timeline and events than before. The conversations have been good and she answers any of my questions. The part that's frustrating is not being able to take like an entire afternoon to just work thru it all.

On her friends at first she wanted me to talk to them 1:1 but I said it makes a lot more sense if we do it together. I don't want to get into he said she said, it's stupid. I suspect it will be the same story, I was simply wanting her to be happy. Which is fine for my wife but was directly against me and our marriage, hence my problem with it. We'll see how if unfolds.

I did see a therapist for the first time this week. I'm on the fence about him. What I like is that he has extensive experience in affairs both professionally and personally. He discovered his wife of 25 years was having an affair,.......for 8 years. If I go back his timeline is to meet with me for 3-4 times then bring my wife in which she said she will.


----------



## TDSC60

Is the therapist still married to his cheating wife?


----------



## Nucking Futs

Cowboy2 said:


> i don't have a huge update at this point, traveled a large part of the week for work which has been very busy.
> 
> We did have a talk last weekend and are talking more later today. She has been much more open than before to discuss the timeline and events than before. The conversations have been good and she answers any of my questions. The part that's frustrating is not being able to take like an entire afternoon to just work thru it all.
> 
> On her friends at first she wanted me to talk to them 1:1 but I said it makes a lot more sense if we do it together. I don't want to get into he said she said, it's stupid. * I suspect it will be the same story, I was simply wanting her to be happy.* Which is fine for my wife but was directly against me and our marriage, hence my problem with it. We'll see how if unfolds.
> 
> I did see a therapist for the first time this week. I'm on the fence about him. What I like is that he has extensive experience in affairs both professionally and personally. He discovered his wife of 25 years was having an affair,.......for 8 years. If I go back his timeline is to meet with me for 3-4 times then bring my wife in which she said she will.


Wayward: "I'm cold, I think I'll set myself on fire."
Toxic Friend: "Here, have some gasoline."


----------



## Dyokemm

Cowboy,

It's good that she seems to be more willing to discuss the timeline and events.....but is she providing MORE INFO?

You KNOW there are gaps and parts of her story that make no sense.

If she will only discuss what you already know, but will not divulge the missing facts that would make her 'story' make sense.....well then she is STILL gaslighting you.

IMO.....everything you DO know of this THREE year (supposedly) EA suggests that it was actually probably a PA......which I know she has denied to you.

A POSOM who will invest that much time and emotion into another man's W, and not be getting sex at the same time?

That has to be as rare as hen's teeth.....some type of urban legend level of rarity.

But there is so much missing info in her story that you cannot know for sure.

If she is not confessing more, or filling in those confusing gaps with more details that actually do support the EA only story that she has sold you.....then your only path is to assume she is still lying to and gaslighting you.

And that is NOT real progress.


----------



## Cowboy2

TDSC60 said:


> Is the therapist still married to his cheating wife?


Wild story. When he found out he sold a ton of their stuff and filed for divorce. That was about 10 years ago. They got remarried a year and a half ago!


----------



## Cowboy2

Dyokemm said:


> Cowboy,
> 
> It's good that she seems to be more willing to discuss the timeline and events.....but is she providing MORE INFO?
> 
> You KNOW there are gaps and parts of her story that make no sense.
> 
> If she will only discuss what you already know, but will not divulge the missing facts that would make her 'story' make sense.....well then she is STILL gaslighting you.
> 
> IMO.....everything you DO know of this THREE year (supposedly) EA suggests that it was actually probably a PA......which I know she has denied to you.
> 
> A POSOM who will invest that much time and emotion into another man's W, and not be getting sex at the same time?
> 
> That has to be as rare as hen's teeth.....some type of urban legend level of rarity.
> 
> But there is so much missing info in her story that you cannot know for sure.
> 
> If she is not confessing more, or filling in those confusing gaps with more details that actually do support the EA only story that she has sold you.....then your only path is to assume she is still lying to and gaslighting you.
> 
> And that is NOT real progress.


I have found out more than I know, sorry if I was confusing. When I let her go with the timeline I learned about new places they met, as well as another friend of POSOM that was along for another time they went out. I am finding out more.

We've got off track on the timeline and onto another subject so we will be going back to it. There's more to find out I guarantee.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

Get her to do the timeline in writing, and allow her some time to get it all in there, while explaining to her that this is the ONLY chance she'll get to come clean without serious repercussions, so she'd be well served to get it all in there, no matter how small a thing she thinks it is. Having it in writing also prevents story changing at a later date, which is very common for the big and small things.


----------



## Malaise

Cowboy

What I see from her is she doesn't seem to care very much if you divorce.

Her actions as you describe hint at it.

Or am I wrong?


----------



## Cowboy2

Malaise said:


> Cowboy
> 
> What I see from her is she doesn't seem to care very much if you divorce.
> 
> Her actions as you describe hint at it.
> 
> Or am I wrong?


I believe she very much does not want to divorce. She knows a divorce will suck big time and she has said many times she does not want to divorce.

While she is doing more than ever before to address the affair such as being willing to go talk to the therapist together and address the friend issue as usual she isn't the one driving it, it's at my lead. I don't know if that makes sense. I've got to continue to drive it forward or she'd be perfectly happy letting it not be addressed again.

I'm pushing it forward again this week. Like I said the therapist is going now, we've discussed the friends but I still need to make that move to a resolution plus we've had a few talks about the affair timeline I just need to make more of those happen this week.


----------



## barbados

Cowboy2 said:


> I believe she very much does not want to divorce. She knows a divorce will suck big time and she has said many times she does not want to divorce.
> 
> While she is doing more than ever before to address the affair such as being willing to go talk to the therapist together and address the friend issue as usual she isn't the one driving it, it's at my lead. I don't know if that makes sense. *I've got to continue to drive it forward or she'd be perfectly happy letting it not be addressed again.
> 
> I'm pushing it forward again this week.* Like I said the therapist is going now, we've discussed the friends but I still need to make that move to a resolution plus we've had a few talks about the affair timeline I just need to make more of those happen this week.


One of the staples of a true, strong R is that *the WS, not the BS*, does the heavy lifting.

Your WW is clearly not doing that. She just wants to rugsweep.

Tells you all you need to know right there. Time for D.


----------



## Thor

barbados said:


> One of the staples of a true, strong R is that *the WS, not the BS*, does the heavy lifting.
> 
> Your WW is clearly not doing that. She just wants to rugsweep.
> 
> Tells you all you need to know right there. Time for D.


Yes, if she just wants to rug sweep it means she still justifies the affair in her own mind. And that means she still believes it is ok to lie and deceive, which means she will lie and deceive again in the future.


----------



## Cowboy2

barbados said:


> One of the staples of a true, strong R is that *the WS, not the BS*, does the heavy lifting.
> 
> Your WW is clearly not doing that. She just wants to rugsweep.
> 
> Tells you all you need to know right there. Time for D.


Thanks for the input guys. I get it and I know this.

It's not going to happen like that which is why I am pushing towards confronting all of this. You are absolutely right, she'd prefer to put it in the past but the point of me pushing on this NOW is to get all of it out there.

I've already learned more than I had previously. While she isn't the one taking the ball and running with it as is the best case scenario every time I've brought it back around she's been onboard. 

Remember, this all started years ago, 6 to be specific. I'm finally confronting all the things I pushed under the table as well. It's not gonna happen overnight, things are moving forward which is what is important to me.


----------



## TRy

MJJEAN said:


> If she jettisons her friends in hopes Cowboy will be staying and he does leave, then she is out her support network.


 She is not keeping these toxic friends because the OP might leave her because of the affair. She is keeping them because she is selfish and has no empathy for the OP. The affair did not just end last week. The affair ended 3 years ago. Her keeping her affair support network as her closes friends is what is keeping the affair on the front burner in the mind of the OP, as regularly seeing these toxic friends is hurtful to the OP, and rubs the affair in his face. At this point, if the OP leaves her now, it will be because she kept them, showing him that she still has little remorse for the affair.

I could not imagine what it must have felt like spending the evening in his own home alone with the wife and the people that supported and facilitated the affair behind his back, joking and laughing with his wife as they ate his food. I do not see how he was able to take it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 2ntnuf

TRy said:


> She is not keeping these toxic friends because the OP might leave her because of the affair. She is keeping them because she is selfish and has no empathy for the OP. The affair did not just end last week. The affair ended 3 years ago. Her keeping her affair support network as her closes friends is what is keeping the affair on the front burner in the mind of the OP, as regularly seeing these toxic friends is hurtful to the OP, and rubs the affair in his face. At this point, if the OP leaves her now, it will be because she kept them, showing him that she still has little remorse for the affair.
> 
> I could not imagine what it must have felt like spending the evening in his own home alone with the wife and the people that supported and facilitated the affair behind his back, joking and laughing with his wife as they ate his food. I do not see how he was able to take it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Telling them to GTFO would just make his wife leave him, but would that tell Cowboy who is most important in her life? 

I mean, would it be worth it to do that and find out her real feelings or would she just give him hell and tell her friends to come around when he is not home? 

I suppose I answered the question myself. She'd probably tell them to come around when he isn't home. It's the same as her being unfaithful. She doesn't care what he wants. It's all about her.


----------



## kenmoore14217

"I believe she very much does not want to divorce. She knows a divorce will suck big time and she has said many times she does not want to divorce."

I had an abscessed tooth that hurt like hell, but I knew if I went to the dentist I'd be in more excruciating pain, so I let my abscessed tooth develop gangrene. 

Does that sound like your marriage? it does to me


----------



## Marc878

I got news for you I've never known a cake eater that wanted a divorce.

Good cake is hard to come by.


----------



## LosingHim

Just a question - does she know what all you want from her? As far as what all you're looking for?

I ask this because if she doesn't know what you require, that may be why you are leading this.

I'm having a tough time reconciling with my husband because I have no idea what he wants from me. I have given him all details, I have cut off my friends, I have given him access to my phone, social media, etc. But if there's more that he requires - other than time, I am clueless. Yes, I have tried asking, but breaking through his shell is very, very hard. 

Have you been clear and concise in everything you require? If so.....then drop the reins and see where it goes. If she's not willing to proactively do it, you have your answer on how willing she is to move forward.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dyokemm

Cowboy,

So she is revealing more details.

Are these new facts leading to making her story that it really was just a 3 year EA more believable?

Or is it making you doubt even more the true nature of the A as she has told it to you?

This is the vital point IMO.....if you feel even more that she is still holding in some huge secrets about what she really did, then I don't see how you could R with her.

Lying is a continuation of the A mindset IMO......it will never be fully over until she comes completely clean about the extent of her betrayal.


----------



## Cowboy2

Marc878 said:


> I got news for you I've never known a cake eater that wanted a divorce.
> 
> Good cake is hard to come by.


Ain't that the truth, especially the quality of this cake. I say that in jest but its also the truth. I know it through my day to day interactions and knowing what the middle age game is out there. 

My first meeting with my therapist was funny in a way as he looked me over and said I'd be a catch. He then went on to talk about the trials and hard work that middle age dating is, I can only assume from his own experience. It's not something I worry about at all.


----------



## Cowboy2

LosingHim said:


> Just a question - does she know what all you want from her? As far as what all you're looking for?
> 
> I ask this because if she doesn't know what you require, that may be why you are leading this.
> 
> I'm having a tough time reconciling with my husband because I have no idea what he wants from me. I have given him all details, I have cut off my friends, I have given him access to my phone, social media, etc. But if there's more that he requires - other than time, I am clueless. Yes, I have tried asking, but breaking through his shell is very, very hard.
> 
> Have you been clear and concise in everything you require? If so.....then drop the reins and see where it goes. If she's not willing to proactively do it, you have your answer on how willing she is to move forward.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Short answer is yes. Your husband I are very different. I am a fairly open book. Needs:

1. Walk through of the timeline of the affair. We've started this.
2. Answer any and all questions I have - We've started this.
3. Removal of male cohort from our lives - We've discussed but to be honest I haven't been totally specific. She is supposed to set up a meeting for the 3 of us - I'll say what I gotta say, see how uncomfortable the room gets, then say what my boundries are - such as never again in my house, etc.
4. Best friend (female) cohort - we are meeting with her next Saturday. Same thing as male friend.
5. Daily ongoing efforts in making the marriage a better place through actions - this is one that's been going on for over a year. I can't complain here much.

The primary goal is to scrape the false R scab off, assess damage and see if it can be healed. this is what 1-4 is for above.

My communication skills are great. It's been my lack of consequences and follow through that need work.


----------



## Marc878

Cowboy2 said:


> Short answer is yes. Your husband I are very different. I am a fairly open book. Needs:
> 
> 1. Walk through of the timeline of the affair. We've started this.
> 2. Answer any and all questions I have - We've started this.
> *3. Removal of male cohort from our lives - We've discussed but to be honest I haven't been totally specific. She is supposed to set up a meeting for the 3 of us - I'll say what I gotta say, see how uncomfortable the room gets, then say what my boundries are - such as never again in my house, etc.
> 4. Best friend (female) cohort - we are meeting with her next Saturday. Same thing as male friend.*5. Daily ongoing efforts in making the marriage a better place through actions - this is one that's been going on for over a year. I can't complain here much.
> 
> The primary goal is to scrape the false R scab off, assess damage and see if it can be healed. this is what 1-4 is for above.
> 
> My communication skills are great. It's been my lack of consequences and follow through that need work.


Why have a discussion just cut them off. This should be complete no contact ever. Unless you want to give them a piece of your mind.


----------



## Cowboy2

Marc878 said:


> Why have a discussion just cut them off. This should be complete no contact ever. Unless you want to give them a piece of your mind.


Bingo. Piece of mind will be given.


----------



## TRy

Cowboy2 said:


> 3. Removal of male cohort from our lives - We've discussed but to be honest I haven't been totally specific. She is supposed to set up a meeting for the 3 of us - I'll say what I gotta say, see how uncomfortable the room gets, then *say what my boundries are - such as never again in my house*, etc.
> 4. Best friend (female) cohort - we are meeting with her next Saturday. Same thing as male friend.


 Forget "never again in my house". It should be never again will they be in her life again in any way. The boundary should be full 100% no contact with any of the toxic friends ever again; this would include not just these two, but their spouses and the new toxic friend that you just learned of. Let your wife know that this a deal breaker issue for you.


----------



## bandit.45

Cowboy2 said:


> Bingo. Piece of mind will be given.


I would show these assclowns the door and tell them never to call or come back, but since you are willing to let your wife continue to associate with them you need to set very clear personal boundaries. 

Make it very clear to them that you have no interest in controlling your wife. Let them know that such and such are your boundaries, and if she or they cross your boundaries in the future, then you will do what you need to do to protect yourself. Coach it in words where the focus off your wife and on what your responses will be and how you will go forwards if your boundaries are ever crossed again. 

Because jerk-wads like these will complain to your wife about how controlling you are being, and about how you don't own her, and how she is not your slave and blah, blah, blah and ad-infinitem.... They will go out and tell their circle of pukes about what a cruel husband you are to your wife and they will trash your rep. Guaranteed they will.


----------



## bandit.45

Cowboy2 said:


> I have found out more than I know, sorry if I was confusing. *When I let her go with the timeline I learned about new places they met, as well as another friend of POSOM that was along for another time they went out.* I am finding out more.
> 
> We've got off track on the timeline and onto another subject so we will be going back to it. There's more to find out I guarantee.


*WHOAH!! WHOAH!! *

What? She went out with *two *guys? To do what? 

WTF man?


----------



## MattMatt

.


----------



## Cowboy2

bandit.45 said:


> *WHOAH!! WHOAH!! *
> 
> What? She went out with *two *guys? To do what?
> 
> WTF man?


Seriously? Not in that intent dude.


----------



## Cowboy2

Talked more last night. I seriously wonder her ability to empathize. Nearly every time I'm attempting to convey how I felt during the dark period she winds up turning it into how much she's beaten herself up over it and how terrible her actions made her feel. It's rarely about what her actions did to the marriage. She's owning it for the most part but it almost always comes back around to how bad SHE feels. Wtf?

She also said we keep going over the same things. I had to point out the reason we wind up going over the same thing is her story changes every time. I didn't talk to him in 2012. You mean except for those 2 FB messages? I don't remember those. Let me show you.......again. This is why we talk about the "same" thing over & over, it's like a new story every time.

Feels like I'm beating a dead horse.


----------



## RWB

Cowboy2 said:


> This is why we talk about the "same" thing over & over, *it's like a new story every time.
> 
> *


CB2,

The "truth" with cheaters is a moving target. The only guarantee concerning the affair...* there's always more*. It took me years to finally except this. :frown2:

This with a healthy dose of... _"I just don't remember", "My memory is not as good as yours", "And if you say so"_ will just about put you in the funny farm.


----------



## VladDracul

Cowboy2 said:


> When I let her go with the timeline I learned about new places they met, *as well as another friend of POSOM that was along for another time they went out.* I am finding out more.


Are you saying she was into gang bangs with these guys?




Cowboy2 said:


> I believe she very much does not want to divorce. She knows a divorce will suck big time and she has said many times she does not want to divorce.


Here's the thing Dawg, women don't have to care about you to not want a divorce. Many women stay with a man to avoid giving up the material resources and benefits they have of marriage. I've known plenty in my time.

Additionally, you question her empathy. Women don't have empathy for a man they are no longer interested in.


----------



## TAMAT

Cowboy,

She keeps delaying you hoping you will tire out and give up.

Tell her to write out a timeline with ALL the details. 

Then schedule a polygraph test. Do not let her squirm out of it.

Tamat


----------



## TAMAT

Cowboy,

Alternately go and speak with the OM tell him your WW told you everything and you need to confirm her story.

Tell him there is forgiveness for the absolute truth.

I'm dealing with this myself now.

Tamat


----------



## Cowboy2

TAMAT said:


> Cowboy,
> 
> She keeps delaying you hoping you will tire out and give up.
> 
> Tell her to write out a timeline with ALL the details.
> 
> Tamat


I'm sure that's the case because that's what's happened before. Which leads to "we've already talked about this over & over" which isn't true because the story is ever changing.

Ain't gonna happen this time.


----------



## Cowboy2

VladDracul said:


> Additionally, you question her empathy. Women don't have empathy for a man they are no longer interested in.


At first I was going to tell you to go f**k yourself, then I realized why. It struck a nerve. There's probably something to this as crappy as it sounds.

I don't think I'd like you as a person but you've had a few cutting insights that have made me think.


----------



## Anon1111

Cowboy2 said:


> Talked more last night. I seriously wonder her ability to empathize. Nearly every time I'm attempting to convey how I felt during the dark period she winds up turning it into how much she's beaten herself up over it and how terrible her actions made her feel. It's rarely about what her actions did to the marriage. She's owning it for the most part but it almost always comes back around to how bad SHE feels. Wtf?
> 
> She also said we keep going over the same things. I had to point out the reason we wind up going over the same thing is her story changes every time. I didn't talk to him in 2012. You mean except for those 2 FB messages? I don't remember those. Let me show you.......again. This is why we talk about the "same" thing over & over, it's like a new story every time.
> 
> Feels like I'm beating a dead horse.


dude, you are very reluctant to put the responsibility where it lies. probably because you know what the consequence for that would be.

she has an OPPORTUNITY to be forthcoming. it's up to her to seize it. she is NOT seizing it. that tells you everything you need to know.

you should tell her "I know you are not being truthful with me. I'm giving you a chance to come clean and do the right thing. I shouldn't even do this. I'm actually doing you a favor. If you won't take this opportunity I'm giving you, then you're not the type of person I want to be married to."


----------



## Herschel

This is a mixed bag in some aspects. It's funny, one one hand, we want them (the cheaters) to empathize with us (the cheatees). Of course we do. The problem is that sometimes we fail to empathize with them. I know many people here don't think that is necessary, but of course it is if you are trying to FIX the marriage. If you are tapped out, then go on, who cares. But if you want to fix the marriage and, more likely, attempt to build a new one, you have to understand where the other person is coming from.

So, when trying to analyze the person and their actions, they often don't do what we want/need. Why? Because it creates cognitive dissonance and most people try to shy away from that. By nature, we all want to imagine we are good people and if we do bad things, we have justification for it. When you break someone down, get to the granular details and try to get them to admit what they did was wrong, it turns into a fight against their survival instincts. They know what they did was wrong, but admitting it to you sincerely could undermine their feelings (or at least their created feelings) of how they feel about themselves. You hear of many cases of cheating spouses being in depression possibly before, but definitely during the affair. It's when there is cognitive dissonance that cause this. It is the I have to convince myself of something I know doesn't exist because otherwise I'd hate myself. Almost the idea in the movie Conception where unless the person thinks that they came up with this idea, they know it isn't legit.

Anyway, this is all just my perception by reading a lot of stuff here, watching my wife. She may never be able to give you what she wants because it ends up breaking her too much and her self defensive mechanism will keep her from doing that. She has to feel justified, or she will end up hating herself. What to do then? I don't know. If you want to make the marriage work, you also have to show empathy to your spouse, understand that it's not just about you and your recovery, but how they can also recover from hurting you as well. I am not saying it's worth it, or obviously that they don't have to own up to it or even show remorse. I am just saying that you are dealing with someone who knows that they did wrong, and is struggling to admit that to herself because of the walls that may come crashing down. Maybe it isn't worth the effort. If you are checked out, then why even bother?


----------



## TaDor

Good luck Cowboy.
Your thread has been helpful to me. I realized one of my Wayward's wasn't fully toxic - but she was doing to the best with what little she had. But the other one, was very active in wrecking the reconciliation/repair of the relationship between me and my WW. (I need to figure out a proper code word for her)

So we talked about it, and it threw her off a bit but I explained why and we would talk about it the next day.

But on next day, before we talked about it again, she had already blocked the toxic friend from facebook. Going over the actions of toxic friend was "She is an enemy, and she always will be one to me. She can lie to you at any time" This "friend" tried to set her up with another guy months ago (before I found out WW broke contact with POSOM and I threw her out of my home). This "friend" manipulated my WW, telling her that *I* was doing the manipulation... ugh.

We even talked about this in or MC meeting, that is was good for us.

Don't trust people who support cheaters.


----------



## cgiles

Cowboy2 said:


> Nearly every time I'm attempting to convey how I felt during the dark period she winds up turning it into how much she's beaten herself up over it and how terrible her actions made her feel. It's rarely about what her actions did to the marriage. She's owning it for the most part but it almost always comes back around to how bad SHE feels. Wtf?


I seen you read NMMNG, but did you read "When I say no, I feel guilty" by Manuel J. Smith ? 

It's about being more assertive.

You should be more assertive when she does that. "I'm not exchanging my feelings with you, I expose to you how you made me feel, and I want to know your opinion about it, about what you did, about how you made me feel" 

translate it in correct english.

You are after answers, press for them.


----------



## Cowboy2

cgiles said:


> I seen you read NMMNG, but did you read "When I say no, I feel guilty" by Manuel J. Smith ?
> 
> It's about being more assertive.
> 
> You should be more assertive when she does that. "I'm not exchanging my feelings with you, I expose to you how you made me feel, and I want to know your opinion about it, about what you did, about how you made me feel"
> 
> translate it in correct english.
> 
> You are after answers, press for them.


It took me YEARS to realize what she was doing here. Which was to emotionally manipulate me into feeling guilty for making her feel bad by sharing how something made me feel. She is a master at it.

When it happens now I point it out and call her out on it then and there.


----------



## bandit.45

Cowboy2 said:


> Seriously? Not in that intent dude.


Well...

What intent? What was she doing out with her OM and a male friend? 

This is so messed up it is beyond belief.


----------



## TRy

bandit.45 said:


> What was she doing out with her OM and a male friend?


 When the OP stated that "I learned about new places they met, as well as another friend of POSOM that was along for another time they went out", I did not see this as stating that his wife had a threesome anymore than the OP's wife saying that they "went out" with her female best friend would imply a threesome. What the OP was saying was that there were more approving toxic freinds than the OP originally knew of.


----------



## 2ntnuf

bandit.45 said:


> Well...
> 
> What intent? What was she doing out with her OM and a male friend?
> 
> This is so messed up it is beyond belief.


Sorry, I can't help myself.

Maybe she was standing in line at Panerra Bred and they walked up and said, "Hey, great to see you! You look fantastic. Wanna catch up on some old times? Meat my friend Neil. We were just hangin' out at the mall together."

"Oh, gee. I don't know", she said. "Well, okay, Bob. It would be nice catching up with you", she explains after some thought.


----------



## TRy

2ntnuf said:


> Sorry, I can't help myself.
> 
> Maybe she was standing in line at Panerra Bred and they walked up and said, "Hey, great to see you! You look fantastic. Wanna catch up on some old times? Meat my friend Neil. We were just hangin' out at the mall together."
> 
> "Oh, gee. I don't know", she said. "Well, okay, Bob. It would be nice catching up with you", she explains after some thought.


 And then after some additional thought she asked, "can we hurry up with the catching up so that we can have more time for the threesome?


----------



## 2ntnuf

TRy said:


> And then after some additional thought she asked, "can we hurry up with the catching up so that we can have more time for the threesome?


Pig on a spit? 

Probably not. I do think it's odd that Cowboy posted that. I was thinking it was probably part of the before affair "innocent" conversations. Don't know the timelines though, and it may not matter much.


----------



## bandit.45

We need to lay off. It really is not funny. But I would like cowboy to answer my question.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## VladDracul

Cowboy2 said:


> I don't think I'd like you as a person but you've had a few cutting insights that have made me think.


Hell join the club my man. Sometimes I don't like me as a person either.


----------



## bandit.45

We are an unlikable bunch. No wonder we have had so many marriage problems.


----------



## VladDracul

For Sure. If I was a woman I show as hell wouldn't want to be married to me.


----------



## bandit.45

TRy said:


> When the OP stated that "I learned about new places they met, as well as another friend of POSOM that was along for another time they went out", I did not see this as stating that his wife had a threesome anymore than the OP's wife saying that they "went out" with her female best friend would imply a threesome. What the OP was saying was that there were more approving toxic freinds than the OP originally knew of.


What it also shows is she has sh!t for boundaries. Period. If the friend of the OM was another man, and even if all three of them were just hanging out on the town, it still shows this woman has the morals and maturity of a sixteen year old.


----------



## Cowboy2

bandit.45 said:


> TRy said:
> 
> 
> 
> When the OP stated that "I learned about new places they met, as well as another friend of POSOM that was along for another time they went out", I did not see this as stating that his wife had a threesome anymore than the OP's wife saying that they "went out" with her female best friend would imply a threesome. What the OP was saying was that there were more approving toxic freinds than the OP originally knew of.
> 
> 
> 
> What it also shows is she has sh!t for boundaries. Period. If the friend of the OM was another man, and even if all three of them were just hanging out on the town, it still shows this woman has the morals and maturity of a sixteen year old.
Click to expand...

Agreed, it's when she started getting bolder. She was actually totally open with me when she reconnected with POSOM but of course then he was another long lost friend rediscovered on FB. Once things heated up she took it underground.

I think her emotional maturity is that of a teenager much of the time.


----------



## VladDracul

TRy said:


> When the OP stated that "I learned about new places they met, as well as another friend of POSOM that was along for another time they went out", I did not see this as stating that his wife had a threesome anymore than the OP's wife saying that they "went out" with her female best friend would imply a threesome. What the OP was saying was that there were more approving toxic freinds than the OP originally knew of.


The way it was put, it hard to envision what went on, so there's a tendency to look at it the worse. Hence, "as well as another friend of POSOM that was along for another time they went out". Back in the old days I occasionally had a woman bring along another chick to join in. It was part of the deal.
At any rate, down south the good ole boys call it threesome where a man, his wife/girlfriend, and a third party get together for sex. If a woman meets two or usually more NSA males for sex is called a gang bang.


----------



## 2ntnuf

bandit.45 said:


> What it also shows is she has sh!t for boundaries. Period. If the friend of the OM was another man, and even if all three of them were just hanging out on the town, it still shows this woman has the morals and maturity of a sixteen year old.


Oh, yeah, I know it isn't funny bandit. There isn't one fvkcin funny thing about a dirt bag cheater, in my opinion. And, there is no damn excuse for cheating. I don't give a damn what anyone says they went through. It's a personal decision based on their character, life experiences, and ability to bull**** their spouse and get away with it. 

Maybe you realized what I was trying to say in this post below?




2ntnuf said:


> Sorry, I can't help myself.
> 
> Maybe she was standing in line at Panerra Bred and they walked up and said, "Hey, great to see you! You look fantastic. Wanna catch up on some old times? Meat my friend Neil. We were just hangin' out at the mall together."
> 
> "Oh, gee. I don't know", she said. "Well, okay, Bob. It would be nice catching up with you", she explains after some thought.


----------



## bandit.45

The whole situation is tweaked. Sh!t like this would make me beyond furious.


----------



## 2ntnuf

He's in one hell of a marriage with a mother in law that will not stand up for him at all. She knows her daughter doesn't really love him. She knows they are not compatible. It may have been some sort of love at one time, but now? It's something else. He's screwed IMO. He's going to be fighting over everything with his wife, because MIL will always be there to give her opinion, and it won't favor Cowboy. That's a life of giving in to everything and having no opinions or decisions that will not be questioned. 

Sorry Cowboy. That's how I see it. I hope it isn't true.


----------



## TAMAT

Yea, I get the impression his MIL has been his WWs confidante much more than Cowboy every was, and may have kept his WW from every really loving him. 

It would not be surprising if his WWs support team were coaching her to evade, deny and lie.

Tamat


----------



## RWB

TAMAT said:


> It would not be surprising if his WWs support team were *coaching her to evade, deny and lie.
> *Tamat


Without a doubt. Cheaters naturally flock together. 

A few weeks after catching my WW cheating, I started to reflect on my W close circle of friends. It seemed over the previous 5 or so years she had replaced the ones I knew (20 years) with a new crowd, mostly divorced, a few re-married multiple times. 

Turns out, almost all had cheated on their H at some point in marriage. There were 2 that my W admitted she had confided in that she was having affairs. In one case, my W and her "bestie" had both had an affair with the same OM. When I caught her, the first 2 people she called... yep same 2. You can guess what kind of advice she had been getting along the way.


----------



## Cowboy2

The male cohort is removed from every shape and form of our lives.

I spoke to the female best friend Saturday. Now she could be a world class liar but I learned some interesting things. She said she was present with my wife and OM one time out for beers and that's it. When I brought up that it seemed like she was a go between for communication she said she was not and she told my wife on numerous occasions not only was she f***ing up her marriage she was hurting both herself and me. She said if I thought she was a supporter of the affair I didn't know her very well. All the questions I asked she answered and quickly. 

I still have the MIL to deal with, 2/3 down at this point.

3rd IC today, at this one I'll decide if I keep this guy. I'm not seeing what I want yet. My brother who is also a therapist said this guy sounds rudderless in his method and approach.


----------



## Malaise

How did it go down with the male friend? What was said?


----------



## Ralph Bellamy

"I spoke to the female best friend Saturday. Now she could be a world class liar but I learned some interesting things. She said she was present with my wife and OM one time out for beers and that's it. When I brought up that it seemed like she was a go between for communication she said she was not and she told my wife on numerous occasions not only was she f***ing up her marriage she was hurting both herself and me. She said if I thought she was a supporter of the affair I didn't know her very well. All the questions I asked she answered and quickly."

My ex-wife's toxic best friend told me the same thing. Lies...


----------



## TRy

Cowboy2 said:


> I spoke to the female best friend Saturday. Now she could be a world class liar but I learned some interesting things. She said she was present with my wife and OM one time out for beers and that's it. When I brought up that it seemed like she was a go between for communication she said she was not and she told my wife on numerous occasions not only was she f***ing up her marriage she was hurting both herself and me.


 First, even if you were to believe that the female best friend only went once for beers with the wife and her lover, that is one time too many. She made a choice to be a friend of the affair and the affair partner over being a friend of yours and the marriage. The friend picked the wrong horse and lost, and she now needs to live with the fact that you now consider her to be a toxic friend. Second, your wife and and this friend discussed what to tell you prior to you meeting with her. Of course they were going to be well versed in minimizing what happened. Your wife told her what you could prove and they designed the lie around it. She and your wife have been lying to you for a long time so they are well practiced at it.

Tell your wife that you do not believe what the best friend and she told you. That your gut tells you that they are not telling the truth, and that given the choice of believing them and believing your gut, you will go with your gut since they have already lied to you during the affair. That in trying to stay in this marriage, you do not need the burden of giving the best friend the benifit of the doubt. That if anyone is to blame for you demanding that she go no contact with the best friend, it your wife since she was the one that brought the best friend into the affair, and the best friend for going along with it. Tell her that this is a deal breaker for you, and be willing to back it up. Enough already with you being the one to bend over backwards for your wife in dealing with the affair. This is just one of the consequences she must be willing to accept. You have have had to accept eating a major $hit sandwich in dealing with the affair, it is time for her to take a bite.


----------



## Cowboy2

Malaise said:


> How did it go down with the male friend? What was said?


I said you need to disconnect from my daughters and wife on any social media. He said is that it? I said you aren't allowed in my house anymore. He said seriously? I said yup. He said fine, I hope this magically makes you feel better.

On another note the 3rd meeting with the therapist was very insightful. At the end of the session he gave me his perception of where I am at, what I'm feeling and it made me go "Whoa. I think there's a lot here that's right on I've been feeling but not acknowledging".


----------



## Malaise

He thinks he did nothing wrong because she portrayed you as a controlling ogre.

*"Whoa. I think there's a lot here that's right on I've been feeling but not acknowledging".*

What are you feeling?


----------



## rzmpf

Cowboy2 said:


> I said you need to disconnect from my daughters and wife on any social media. He said is that it? I said you aren't allowed in my house anymore. He said seriously? I said yup. He said fine, I hope this magically makes you feel better.


And he is still allowed to have contact in person or by phone?


----------



## VladDracul

This is starting to remind me a lot of when I was a teenager and my parents would call the neighbor and tell them they didn't want their kid to play with my much younger brother anymore because he was causing my brother to go astray. Most of the time my brother was was the ring leader.> My parents were crazy enough to blame everybody else for my brother's misdeeds. 
Before out of his teens, bro did three month weekend court ordered community service because the judge didn't agree it was everybody elses fault.


----------



## drifting on

Cowboy2 said:


> The male cohort is removed from every shape and form of our lives.
> 
> I spoke to the female best friend Saturday. Now she could be a world class liar but I learned some interesting things. She said she was present with my wife and OM one time out for beers and that's it. When I brought up that it seemed like she was a go between for communication she said she was not and she told my wife on numerous occasions not only was she f***ing up her marriage she was hurting both herself and me. She said if I thought she was a supporter of the affair I didn't know her very well. All the questions I asked she answered and quickly.
> 
> I still have the MIL to deal with, 2/3 down at this point.
> 
> 3rd IC today, at this one I'll decide if I keep this guy. I'm not seeing what I want yet. My brother who is also a therapist said this guy sounds rudderless in his method and approach.




Although there is nothing funny about infidelity, I couldn't help but laugh at the ignorance of this woman. You don't know me if you think I helped, I was not the go between but I went out with them, you are hurting me and cowboy with your actions!!! That one was classic!!! Do you see the deflection from herself to you and your wife?? You don't know me, let's just look at that, in her head she was thinking how do I answer cowboy about supporting the affair? Oh, I know, you don't know me if you think I helped or supported in any way. That's it deflect the true answer back onto cowboy!!! What a classy gal. 

Cowboy, tell both of them goodbye, they aren't worth your time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Herschel

Rationally speaking, I can understand her argument. Her allegiance is to her friend. Not necessarily in making bad decisions, but being there, talking to them and trying to help them make good ones. Maybe she should have told you, maybe she was worried about the fallout. That doesn't mean she was complicit, and understanding that she holds value in her relationship with your wife makes it at least understandable. Maybe no forgivable, but it doesn't mean that she was aiding in the actions.


----------



## Anon1111

Cowboy2 said:


> The male cohort is removed from every shape and form of our lives.
> 
> I spoke to the female best friend Saturday. Now she could be a world class liar but I learned some interesting things. She said she was present with my wife and OM one time out for beers and that's it. When I brought up that it seemed like she was a go between for communication she said she was not and she told my wife on numerous occasions not only was she f***ing up her marriage she was hurting both herself and me. She said if I thought she was a supporter of the affair I didn't know her very well. All the questions I asked she answered and quickly.
> 
> I still have the MIL to deal with, 2/3 down at this point.
> 
> 3rd IC today, at this one I'll decide if I keep this guy. I'm not seeing what I want yet. My brother who is also a therapist said this guy sounds rudderless in his method and approach.


my reaction to the female best friend is that if she was really concerned about your marriage, then why did she keep the secret?

simply by keeping it a secret, she was a supporter of the affair.

Her explanation appears totally aimed at saving face. I would not put much stock in it.


----------



## jld

Cowboy2 said:


> I said you need to disconnect from my daughters and wife on any social media. He said is that it? I said you aren't allowed in my house anymore. He said seriously? I said yup. He said fine, I hope this magically makes you feel better.


I think he was trying to say that trying to control things externally will not solve the problem. 

It is connecting emotionally with your wife that will strengthen your marital bond.


----------



## Anon1111

Cowboy2 said:


> I said you need to disconnect from my daughters and wife on any social media. He said is that it? I said you aren't allowed in my house anymore. He said seriously? I said yup. He said fine, I hope this magically makes you feel better.


that dude has some serious balls.

must have taken some restraint not to pop him when he said that.


----------



## MyRevelation

Cowboy2 said:


> The male cohort is removed from every shape and form of our lives.
> 
> I spoke to the female best friend Saturday. Now she could be a world class liar but I learned some interesting things. She said she was present with my wife and OM one time out for beers and that's it. When I brought up that it seemed like she was a go between for communication she said she was not and she told my wife on numerous occasions not only was she f***ing up her marriage she was hurting both herself and me. She said if I thought she was a supporter of the affair I didn't know her very well. All the questions I asked she answered and quickly.


I related earlier in this thread how we cut 3 of FWW's friends out of our lives. When I talked to the coworker friend, she gave me basically the same line of BS that your WW's BFF gave to you ... "I'm a fan of you two staying together and being happy" ... "I would never do anything to come between the two of you" ... "How could you think I was encouraging FWW". In fact, the conversations were so close that I mildly triggered when I read your post.

The thing coworker didn't know was that I had already read all the emails between her and FWW, where she was the head cheerleader for FWW. So, she was history, other than a card we received 6 months later trying to make amends, which I trashed. She worked for the same company in another city and soon after left the company and we've not heard anything about her in 8+ years.

I HIGHLY recommend cutting toxic enablers out of your lives permanently.

There is also a valuable clue in your post ... solid, trustworthy friends of the M DON'T go out for beers with affair partners. What toxic enablers DO is lie, minimize and provide cover for their friends, which is EXACTLY what your WW's BFF DID.

When trying to unravel infidelity, believe in actions over words.


----------



## drifting on

Anon1111 said:


> that dude has some serious balls.
> 
> must have taken some restraint not to pop him when he said that.




A statement like this is ignorance, would have received nothing but a laugh from me. Now if he said if you weren't so controlling... Then I would say he had a set. He actually thinks he did nothing wrong based on what Mrs cowboy said to him. Cowboy, that's a pretty bad reflection of you by your wife, any plans to have her send a letter to all that she was lying so she could continue her affair?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RWB

VladDracul said:


> This is starting to remind me a lot of when I was a teenager and my parents would call the neighbor and tell them they didn't want their kid to play with my much younger brother anymore because he was causing my brother to go astray. Most of the time my brother was was the ring leader.> * My parents were crazy enough to blame everybody else for my brother's misdeeds. *


Yep, substitute H or W for Parents above and you have a BS that just can't rap their head around the truth... My WS made a conscience decision all on their own to cheat on me. 

Regarding those Cohorts... my WW 1st affair was with her Principal at the school she taught at. Teachers talk and see everything going on in the school. Regarding work place affairs, it's pretty evident when something is going on. I see it everyday where I work. They stop by and chat at every opportunity, each lunch together, walk each other to parking lot. No rocket science needed to know what's going on. 

This affair went on for years. How many knew? Who knows for sure. I know of at least 4 that were on the "inside". Never said a word to me. Many had taught my kids, I thought they were friends. Strange? Not really, most had/were cheating themselves.


----------



## sokillme

RWB said:


> Without a doubt. Cheaters naturally flock together.
> 
> A few weeks after catching my WW cheating, I started to reflect on my W close circle of friends. It seemed over the previous 5 or so years she had replaced the ones I knew (20 years) with a new crowd, mostly divorced, a few re-married multiple times.
> 
> Turns out, almost all had cheated on their H at some point in marriage. There were 2 that my W admitted she had confided in that she was having affairs. In one case, my W and her "bestie" had both had an affair with the same OM. When I caught her, the first 2 people she called... yep same 2. You can guess what kind of advice she had been getting along the way.


All of this still doesn't change the fact that it is the WS who is the real problem. It's like all the misdirected anger I see from time to time from a BS towards the AP. Yes the AP is bad but how much worse is the WS, they are the ones who broke their commitment. 

The truth is if the WS had good character they could of been around Bill Clinton himself and would not have cheated. It's not like the AP tricked them. The BS should place their anger on the one who betrayed them and it wasn't the AP. To me this kind of misdirected anger is just a form of denial of the true nature of the WS. 

This is why it is better in general just to end the relationship. You can't police this stuff the WS either really changes which is rare or they don't. Trying to keep crappy people away to stop them from cheating is a fool's errand. If the WS was really changed they wouldn't want to hang out with crappy people. It's also disrespectful to the BS and if the WS doesn't see that they probably still don't get it.


----------



## Ralph Bellamy

Cowboy2 said:


> I said you need to disconnect from my daughters and wife on any social media. He said is that it? I said you aren't allowed in my house anymore. He said seriously? I said yup. He said fine, I hope this magically makes you feel better.".


This sounds to me like he's appeasing you to your face. There seems to be no respect for you in your wife's circle of influence. Where do you suppose that disrespect started?


----------



## larry.gray

Anon1111 said:


> that dude has some serious balls.
> 
> must have taken some restraint not to pop him when he said that.


It sure would have been the opening for it.

POP. "No, but that sure did."


----------



## Marc878

Cowboy2 said:


> I spoke to the female best friend Saturday. Now she could be a world class liar but I learned some interesting things. She said she was present with my wife and OM one time out for beers and that's it. When I brought up that it seemed like she was a go between for communication she said she was not and she told my wife on numerous occasions not only was she f***ing up her marriage she was hurting both herself and me. She said if I thought she was a supporter of the affair I didn't know her very well. All the questions I asked she answered and quickly.
> .


The thing is even if this is true and that's a big if she helped keep the secret which enabled the affair.

You don't need that type of person connected to your family. It's just a big risk.


----------



## VladDracul

RWB said:


> my WW 1st affair was with her Principal at the school she taught at.


Many moons ago I was deputy finance director for the local school system for a couple of years. It was well know that a male principal leading any number of primarily female teachers had more opportunity to catch beaver than a Oregon fir trapper.


----------



## MattMatt

drifting on said:


> A statement like this is ignorance, would have received nothing but a laugh from me. Now if he said if you weren't so controlling... Then I would say he had a set. He actually thinks he did nothing wrong based on what Mrs cowboy said to him. Cowboy, that's a pretty bad reflection of you by your wife, any plans to have her send a letter to all that she was lying so she could continue her affair?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Of course she was lying! 

It is known as reinventing the marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JohnA

"Hope that makes you feel better". REALLY

Did he ever dig into what she was saying was true? Or was he just a cowardly go along "oh I just want you to be happy" guy? WHAT ABOUT WANTING YOU HAPPY? He and female best friend fall into the same pit as OM. I have been editing this for awhile but it sums up who the OP and adultery enabler are: 

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Who is the other person*

There are moments in a persons life that transcends time. That emotion on the day of and day after their wedding, the birth of a child and that first moment me holding the child. They inform us, they are not what makes life worth living, they are life.

In the same way, adultery has transformed me. The echoes of the uncertainties and raw emotional pain will always be a part of me. Overtime it has and continues to evolve into a source of empathy. The empathy that enables me to understand others pain and fear, both in matters like this and others.*

*posm and those who enable are not nice people. They had a choice to support *your marriage. *They could have helped your spouse to fight and win to save your marriage. They choose to use the opportunity to try to fill a void in their life. In doing so they choose to inflict the pain and loss I wrote above.*

Understand they choose to be the one. * They choose to enable. To say "if not him, then..." does not work. They *choose it to be them and no one else. In this they *are *lacking in character. So, they could be a fine person, *but so are addicts until they need a fix.

So what is, is. I have gained acceptance, I have greatly healed. I have gain empathy and awareness, and a great deal of indifference. It is from indifference I say "no they are not a nice person". *It is from the same place I would comment on a persons second DUI. No when a person allows there own weakness to create actual harm or create a real threat of harm, they cannot be truly be considered a nice person

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


----------



## RWB

VladDracul said:


> Many moons ago I was deputy finance director for the local school system for a couple of years. It was well know that a male principal leading any number of primarily female teachers had more opportunity to catch beaver than a Oregon fir trapper.


It happens wit such frequency in our county BOE it's not even shocking anymore. At least in the past few years the BOE is firing all parties.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## larry.gray

Our superintendent is a BS. When he was a classroom teacher his wife was a teacher at another school first and she had an affair with a coworker.

He dumped her, and remarried a few years later.

As superintendent he dealt with a cheating pair of teachers. It wasn't pretty, he went total scorched earth on them.


----------



## poida

Cowboy2 said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Been a while since I've been on here. My wife of 20 + years had an affair that started about 6 years ago. It was on again off again for close to 3 years to one level or another for a variety of reasons, the primary one being I didn't have the balls to take a hard stand against her behavior. When I finally got educated, in large part to TAM, and got my head out of my ass and was ready to walk she woke up out of her fog and for the most part things have been improving in our marriage the last several years. In a weird way the affair made me grow on a personal level in ways I never would have otherwise.
> 
> The reason I am posting today is because we are having a 4th of July gathering at our house. A husband, his wife, and their son are coming over. The husband was one of my wife's confidants during the affair. This guy never comes across my radar in day to day life. My wife used to work with him and is friends still with him as well as his wife. I know he thinks I don't like him because of the fact he was my wife's confidant during he affair and he's right. I don't like him. In years past from my wife I got the "it's not that he wanted me to be with the other guy it's that he wanted what's best for me, what makes me happy". And of course the reason for this was my wife painted me as the monster bad guy at home to justify her actions. This guy and his family have been in my house a few times in the last few years and I just ignore him. I caught communication between this guy and my wife that showed he was a big cheering section for her and advised her to go be with this other man. So yeah, I don't like him.
> 
> We also do things from time to time with my wife's best friend and her husband. Her best friend helped her a lot during the affair as in helped her communicate with the other man, etc. Again my wife portrayed me as the bad guy which as we all know the wandering spouse is good at doing in order to justify their behavior and get others in their court.
> 
> So I don't take many things personally anymore, just no point to it. But I've been thinking it's time to take a stand on having interaction with either of these 2 people who to one degree or another helped my wife with her affair. I know the hard liners will say anyone who helped facilitate an affair should be cut out completely and I understand that. On one level I don't give a crap because it's wasted negative energy but another part of me says I should take a harder stand here.
> 
> I'd enjoy hearing others thoughts and experience in this. Thanks in advance and have great holiday.


Look, it was communication that saved your marriage right?

If your wife was capable of sympathising with you during R, she will understand when you say you hate him for what he did and you don't want to see him.

If she truly cares for you, she will understand and ask them not to come.

Stand up for yourself. Learn from your lessons and don't be afraid to tell your wife EXACTLY how you feel about him and what you want done about it.

if it turns to a fight, STAND YOUR GROUND. You have every right to want his a$$ off your property and out of your life.


----------



## Cowboy2

Malaise said:


> He thinks he did nothing wrong because she portrayed you as a controlling ogre.
> 
> *"Whoa. I think there's a lot here that's right on I've been feeling but not acknowledging".*
> 
> What are you feeling?


That I have turmoil in my heart. I'm angry at my wife and angry at myself for how I handled things during the affair. That I'm looking for inner peace with it. I'm finally taking a deep look inside to see if I can forgive and I probably don't like what I'm seeing. 

The affair was deeply emotional. She totally gave her heart to POSOM. It may be that I'm finally facing the fact I can't forgive that.


----------



## bandit.45

A deal breaker is a deal breaker.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thor

bandit.45 said:


> A deal breaker is a deal breaker.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yup. It took me a long time to really accept in my heart that my wife was no longer the person I thought I had married. That person I thought I'd married would never have done those things, or at least not intentionally. If she'd understood the damage done by those things, she never would have done them.

The example I use is as a kid when your best friend accidentally smacks you in the face and you get a bloody nose. Yeah you're angry at him, briefly, but he didn't have malicious intent. Soon enough your back to running around laughing and having fun.

But when some jerk intentionally gives you a bloody nose, it is time to rumble. There's no being friends with this jerk.

It can be difficult to come to grips with the fact one's spouse didn't commit the accidental act but intentionally stepped over the line.


----------



## bandit.45

If you read wayward threads in other websites, it is sort of funny how clueless most of them are when it comes to the idea of "deal breaker". Many think that because they have gone to IC, sweated it out doing R, taken full responsibility for the affair and completely renovated their coping skills that they have "earned" reconciliation. 

Then, to their utter dismay, after four or five years of attempted R their BS tells them they cannot do it, they can no longer go on with the marriage. 

Some BS just cannot do it, no matter how hard the WS has worked to regain their trust. It is a matter of self respect. Many BSs just cannot have any self respect if they stay with the person who showed them such disrespect. And I think that is what may be happening to Cowboy. He is waking up to the possibility that he is not going to get over this betrayal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Cowboy2 said:


> That I have turmoil in my heart. I'm angry at my wife and angry at myself for how I handled things during the affair. That I'm looking for inner peace with it. I'm finally taking a deep look inside to see if I can forgive and I probably don't like what I'm seeing.
> 
> The affair was deeply emotional. She totally gave her heart to POSOM. *It may be that I'm finally facing the fact I can't forgive that.*


Then wouldn't it be a favor to both of you to divorce?

What is holding you back?


----------



## honcho

Cowboy2 said:


> The affair was deeply emotional. She totally gave her heart to POSOM. It may be that I'm finally facing the fact I can't forgive that.


Many times this is the hardest part to forgive. She willingly took her heart from you and gave it to someone else. Being remorseful, following new rules and boundaries it's still a "leap of faith" whether you have her heart or not when it was given away so easily to someone else.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Why is it so hard to divorce even in the face of reality? My thoughts are:

Memories of the love that was so good. The beliefs that he had it all and was satisfied and at peace. The idea that he will have to accept that he wasted years of hard work in whatever love he gave her and her family. The fact that he swallowed his pride many times while with her and it was for nothing in the end. The fact that he just can't believe she could make him feel so loved and secure, then treat him like he was a forgettable acquaintance. The belief that he will be patronized by friends, family and ex in-laws. The thought that all the respect he earned may be gone or severely damaged. 

Trust and love are shattered. Questions arise. What is love? How do I know I'm not going to end up like this again? Is the love I felt worth the cost, if I lose it all again? How much time do I have to rebuild my life and then one with someone else, after looking for some time to find a more compatible partner? Is everyone like this? Why does it hurt me so much and not others? It all seems so complicated. Why should I divorce if I can never know for sure who will do this to me again? I know my wife, even though she has hurt me. Am I better off with the devil I know or the devil I don't know? Screw it. I want to crawl in a hole and hide. 

That's how I see it. It may not be how Cowboy sees it. I cannot read his mind.


----------



## Cowboy2

bandit.45 said:


> If you read wayward threads in other websites, it is sort of funny how clueless most of them are when it comes to the idea of "deal breaker". Many think that because they have gone to IC, sweated it out doing R, taken full responsibility for the affair and completely renovated their coping skills that they have "earned" reconciliation.
> 
> Then, to their utter dismay, after four or five years of attempted R their BS tells them they cannot do it, they can no longer go on with the marriage.
> 
> Some BS just cannot do it, no matter how hard the WS has worked to regain their trust. It is a matter of self respect. Many BSs just cannot have any self respect if they stay with the person who showed them such disrespect. And I think that is what may be happening to Cowboy. He is waking up to the possibility that he is not going to get over this betrayal.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes. I told the therapist it's like it's my ego that won't let it go. I let myself be a backup plan by staying with her. I saw in several of her messages how in love she was, how vulnerable she allowed herself to be with/to POSOM. Depth of feelings I did see early in our marriage but not for many years. Then it didn't work out and I'm left with the pieces. And I'm not a backup plan even though that's exactly what I've allowed myself to be for the last 5 years. It's pride. And that's the ongoing turmoil inside me.

It's like I built up the other aspects of my life the last few years and on the surface the marriage has improved (which she likes to point out over and over) but it's the lingering infected scab underneath that won't go away. I blocked it out, walled it off for a long time.


----------



## bandit.45

Cowboy2 said:


> Yes. I told the therapist it's like it's my ego that won't let it go. I let myself be a backup plan by staying with her. I saw in several of her messages how in love she was, how vulnerable she allowed herself to be with/to POSOM. Depth of feelings I did see early in our marriage but not for many years. Then it didn't work out and I'm left with the pieces. And I'm not a backup plan even though that's exactly what I've allowed myself to be for the last 5 years. It's pride. And that's the ongoing turmoil inside me.
> 
> It's like I built up the other aspects of my life the last few years and on the surface the marriage has improved (which she likes to point out over and over) but it's the lingering infected scab underneath that won't go away. I blocked it out, walled it off for a long time.


You aren't giving yourself enough credit. You are also taking the blame for her bad decisions. It is not ego or pride. You are hurt, hurt to your very core by what she did, and it will take years to heal from it. 

Your wife's affair was based on feeding her own ego, and her unwillingness to change her behavior is a result of her own pride. She continues to put your needs and feelings secondary to maintaining the marriage for herself. She is willing to do anything to preserve her nest egg, even if that means sacrificing her husband's soul. 

If she were truly remorseful, she would allow you to do anything you needed to do, within reason, to heal...even giving up the marriage and letting you go if that is what you need. 

She is still being selfish. Her attitude towards this whole issue with her toxic friends is indicative of that.


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> If she were truly remorseful, she would allow you to do anything you needed to do, within reason, to heal...even giving up the marriage and letting you go if that is what you need.


He does not need her permission to do this. He is free to seek a divorce at any time.

Cowboy, you said your pride is hurt. Do you think your pride is covering your hurt, and that deep hurt is the true issue?

You trusted her to be faithful, to not give her heart to another. Has she ever addressed why she thinks it happened?


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> He does not need her permission to do this. He is free to seek a divorce at any time.


Of course he doesn't, I'm not arguing that, but you are missing my point. She should have been offering him that option all along. She should have offered him that on D-Day. She should have offered to walk away with nothing. Instead, she gaslighted him for years, and did nothing to remove the cancerous friends from her life. 



> want to address this as it gives me something to think about in a new way. I would say during her A she was in a very strange place. She has had depression to varying levels for many years. She has taken anti-depressants for a few years now and it's made a big difference. She was incredible self-involved during this time. She doesn't see her best friend in a way that she promoted the affair. She sees her best friend as someone that will have her back (and the other way around) no matter what.
> 
> I would say my wife did not do the full on drop to her knees type remorse mode. She knows what she did was incredibly wrong and hurtful and has made and continues to make ongoing strong effort in rebuilding the marriage. She knows she destroyed trust on a deep level and that full trust will never be restored. It's not possible after the person you feel should be there for you through thick and thin gaslights you to your face in order to get another fix.


So if we go back to this statement, what I see is that the core of his issue has nothing to do with ego or pride, but trust. She has not been proactive in restoring trust. 

I think Cowboy is intentionally throwing himself off course with this pride and ego nonsense as reasons to not do what he knows he needs to do.


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> Of course he doesn't, I'm not arguing that, but you are missing my point. She should have been offering him that option all along. She should have offered him that on D-Day. She should have offered to walk away with nothing. Instead, she gaslighted him for years, and did nothing to remove the cancerous friends from her life.


Why "should" she have? Why should he not have simply elected to divorce her right away?

Cowboy, you have to take responsibility for your own life into your own hands. You do not have to stay married. You are free to leave. 

Expecting your wife, or anyone, really, to put what you consider your interests first is risky. Even if you think they "should" do it, they may disagree. And they may disagree on what your interests are to begin with. 

It is risky to give them that kind of power over you. Safer to keep it for yourself.

Again, what is holding you back from divorcing? Are you still thinking it through?

That makes sense. It is a big decision. You want to have explored all angles? You don't want to have any regrets?



> So if we go back to this statement, what I see is that the core of his issue has nothing to do with ego or pride, but trust. She has not been proactive in restoring trust.


Cowboy, have you been direct with your wife about how you want her to go about restoring your trust? Some people need it spelled out.



> I think Cowboy is intentionally throwing himself off course with this pride and ego nonsense as reasons to not do what he knows he needs to do.


Cowboy, how did your counselor respond to your statements about your pride and your ego?


----------



## arbitrator

larry.gray said:


> Our superintendent is a BS. When he was a classroom teacher his wife was a teacher at another school first and she had an affair with a coworker.
> 
> He dumped her, and remarried a few years later.
> 
> As superintendent he dealt with a cheating pair of teachers. It wasn't pretty, he went total scorched earth on them.


*Obviously, it greatly helps to be in a position of "power!"

Well, I heartily say "more power to him!"*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon1111

Cowboy2 said:


> Yes. I told the therapist it's like it's my ego that won't let it go. I let myself be a backup plan by staying with her. I saw in several of her messages how in love she was, how vulnerable she allowed herself to be with/to POSOM. Depth of feelings I did see early in our marriage but not for many years. Then it didn't work out and I'm left with the pieces. And I'm not a backup plan even though that's exactly what I've allowed myself to be for the last 5 years. It's pride. And that's the ongoing turmoil inside me.
> 
> It's like I built up the other aspects of my life the last few years and on the surface the marriage has improved (which she likes to point out over and over) but it's the lingering infected scab underneath that won't go away. I blocked it out, walled it off for a long time.


hey dude-- you don't have to let it go. that is totally your choice.

she made her choice and you have your own choice. you are not required to do anything.

I think you should just tell her after living with it for a while, you've realized you're not OK with how things turned out.

she's been reliant on the premise that you'll suck it up and deal with it. then she gets to play in the wiggle room you allow her in that space your self guilt provides.

f- that man. you don't owe her that.


----------



## Ralph Bellamy

Cowboy2 said:


> Yes. I told the therapist it's like it's my ego that won't let it go. I let myself be a backup plan by staying with her. I saw in several of her messages how in love she was, how vulnerable she allowed herself to be with/to POSOM. Depth of feelings I did see early in our marriage but not for many years. Then it didn't work out and I'm left with the pieces. And I'm not a backup plan even though that's exactly what I've allowed myself to be for the last 5 years. It's pride. And that's the ongoing turmoil inside me.
> 
> It's like I built up the other aspects of my life the last few years and on the surface the marriage has improved (which she likes to point out over and over) but it's the lingering infected scab underneath that won't go away. I blocked it out, walled it off for a long time.


If you don't feel like your spouse loves or respects you, a marriage can be the loneliest thing in the world.


----------



## 2ntnuf

These are pretty good questions, Cowboy. I don't usually agree with jld, either. If you can get to the bottom of these, maybe you can fight your way out of this mess and grow to be a stronger man than you ever were. I encourage you to look deep and try to answer them honestly. 




jld said:


> Why "should" she have?







jld said:


> Why should he not have simply elected to divorce her right away?







jld said:


> Cowboy, you have to take responsibility for your own life into your own hands. You do not have to stay married. You are free to leave.
> 
> Expecting your wife, or anyone, really, to put what you consider your interests first is risky. Even if you think they "should" do it, they may disagree. And they may disagree on what your interests are to begin with.
> 
> It is risky to give them that kind of power over you. Safer to keep it for yourself.







jld said:


> Again, what is holding you back from divorcing? Are you still thinking it through?
> 
> That makes sense. It is a big decision. You want to have explored all angles? You don't want to have any regrets?







jld said:


> Cowboy, have you been direct with your wife about how you want her to go about restoring your trust? Some people need it spelled out.







jld said:


> Cowboy, how did your counselor respond to your statements about your pride and your ego?


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> Why "should" she have?
> 
> Because that is what a conscientious and contrite wayward spouse does.
> 
> He should not have had to solicit it or pressure her into it.
> 
> 
> Why should he not have simply elected to divorce her right away?
> 
> Maybe he was waiting for her to show true remorse. I think he has been overly generous with his patience.
> 
> Cowboy, you have to take responsibility for your own life into your own hands. You do not have to stay married. You are free to leave.
> 
> True
> 
> Expecting your wife, or anyone, really, to put what you consider your interests first is risky. Even if you think they "should" do it, they may disagree. And they may disagree on what your interests are to begin with.
> 
> Don't you expect your husband to put your interests before his? Do you consider that risky?
> 
> It is risky to give them that kind of power over you. Safer to keep it for yourself.
> 
> This doesn't sound like its coming from the jld I know.
> 
> Again, what is holding you back from divorcing? Are you still thinking it through?
> 
> That makes sense. It is a big decision. You want to have explored all angles? You don't want to have any regrets?
> 
> 
> 
> Cowboy, have you been direct with your wife about how you want her to go about restoring your trust? Some people need it spelled out.
> 
> If he has not, he has at least been hinting at it for the past year or so from what I gather. But I agree, maybe he does need to spell it out for her.
> 
> 
> 
> Cowboy, how did your counselor respond to your statements about your pride and your ego?


----------



## 2ntnuf

> This doesn't sound like its coming from the jld I know.



Agree. Maybe someone is using her account? :smile2:


----------



## TRy

Cowboy2 said:


> It's like I built up the other aspects of my life the last few years and on the surface the marriage has improved (which she likes to point out over and over) but it's the lingering infected scab underneath that won't go away. I blocked it out, walled it off for a long time.


 Compare the above current statement with text from your first post to this thread listed below.



Cowboy2 said:


> The reason I am posting today is because we are having a 4th of July gathering at our house. A husband, his wife, and their son are coming over. The husband was one of my wife's confidants during the affair. This guy never comes across my radar in day to day life. My wife used to work with him and is friends still with him as well as his wife. I know he thinks I don't like him because of the fact he was my wife's confidant during he affair and he's right. I don't like him. In years past from my wife I got the "it's not that he wanted me to be with the other guy it's that he wanted what's best for me, what makes me happy".





Cowboy2 said:


> We also do things from time to time with my wife's best friend and her husband. Her best friend helped her a lot during the affair as in helped her communicate with the other man, etc.


 What you will see in comparing your first post to your current post, is that you went from just being bugged that your wife knowingly keep her affair toxic friends in both of your lives, even though she knew that this hurt you as it would not let you forget the affair, to you being bugged that you kept your non-remorseful wife in your life after the affair. This happened because you realized that your wife's actions on this showed that she thought so little of your feelings both during and after the affair, that when you told her that you did not like this male friend because of the fact that he was your "wife's confidant during he affair", rather respecting your legitimate feelings on this, she just dismissed your feelings like she did during the affair and told you that "it's not that he wanted me to be with the other guy it's that he wanted what's best for me, what makes me happy". That answer only makes sense if you assume that only her being happy mattered and you being happy did not. Also, when push came to shove, she was again picking someone else over you.

Had she had real remorse, and had she valued your legitimate feelings, she would have immedaitly lost both toxic friends on her own as she fought to show you that you mattered to her and that you were more than just a backup plan. Thus, you are thinking of ending the marriage not only because of what she did during the affair, but because of what she did not do after the affair to make you feel whole again. You gave her another chance, and she did not run with it.


----------



## JohnA

I followed a thread on another site by a WW. She committed adultery 20 years ago. She and the BS stayed together. On her post she gussed over how great her husband was. Then she "kissed" another man at a bar. She confused to her BS but claimed they only flirted nothing else. The husband said "what do you want to do"? I love yous I only want you, etc. Husband blew up her world by replying he had always planned to divorce after the youngest was 18. 

She thought they had a really good marriage for over 15 years! Now she gets she did everything wrong repeatly. How she keep re-wounding him. How she kept toxic frendships, how she never stood up for him, how she never tried to understand his pain. Now she wants to be the spouse he should have aiways had. The husband- he is indifferent. She is merely a tempory tenant in his life to be evicted when it is convenient. No anger, no rebukes, no effectuation, just leting the clock run down on a 52-0 game. You have not reconciled, you have merely been marking time. 

Why did you stop filing back in 2014? What did she do to improve the marriage?


----------



## TDSC60

JohnA said:


> I followed a thread on another site by a WW. She committed adultery 20 years ago. She and the BS stayed together. On her post she gussed over how great her husband was. Then she "kissed" another man at a bar.  She confused to her BS but claimed they only flirted nothing else. The husband said "what do you want to do"? I love yous I only want you, etc. Husband blew up her world by replying he had always planned to divorce after the youngest was 18.
> 
> She thought they had a really good marriage for over 15 years! Now she gets she did everything wrong repeatly. How she keep re-wounding him. How she kept toxic frendships, how she never stood up for him, how she never tried to understand his pain. Now she wants to be the spouse he should have aiways had. The husband- he is indifferent. She is merely a tempory tenant in his life to be evicted when it is convenient. No anger, no rebukes, no effectuation, just leting the clock run down on a 52-0 game. You have not reconciled, you have merely been marking time.
> 
> Why did you stop filing back in 2014? What did she do to improve the marriage?


This supposedly regretful spouse continued to put herself in a situation that encouraged possible cheating - and did it by kissing a man who was not her husband. If she was truly sorry, she would have never been in the bar without her husband in the first place.

I see similarities with Cowboy's wife. If she were truly regretful and wanted a good marriage with her husband, she would never have stayed in contact with anyone who encouraged or enabled the affair. Not only did she keep the toxic friends, she argued with Cowboy that he should not object to her still being friends with them. By inviting them to a party, she showed Cowboy whose feelings still come first with her - her toxic friends. Cowboy was not even a consideration in that equation.


----------



## JohnA

BingoTDSC60. I also wonder if Cowboys and the other Posyers wives are strongly influenced by their age.


----------



## confusednAlone

I can relate as in my recent discovery amongst the many lies my soon to be ex told me was that no one knew. I found out obviously by means I will not disclose that was another lie. Her confidant was none other than her brothers soon to be ex. Now I never liked this woman to begin with since my wife began drinking heavily when she first became friends with her. Its like she was encouraging her to be some different type of person. Hey my marriage failed with your brother so why not fail in yours. The scariest part was after investigating, I actually was shocked to learn that my wife was encouraging her as well to find a man and no matter what keep your husband around for finacial security. I was shocked but after reading countless articles and stories. Nothing surpises me anymore. 

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


----------



## Cowboy2

bandit.45 said:


> You aren't giving yourself enough credit. You are also taking the blame for her bad decisions. It is not ego or pride. You are hurt, hurt to your very core by what she did, and it will take years to heal from it.
> 
> Your wife's affair was based on feeding her own ego, and her unwillingness to change her behavior is a result of her own pride. She continues to put your needs and feelings secondary to maintaining the marriage for herself. She is willing to do anything to preserve her nest egg, even if that means sacrificing her husband's soul.
> 
> If she were truly remorseful, she would allow you to do anything you needed to do, within reason, to heal...even giving up the marriage and letting you go if that is what you need.
> 
> She is still being selfish. Her attitude towards this whole issue with her toxic friends is indicative of that.


It's the ability to truly see actions vs. words that shows what the real deal is. And you're right. She says a lot of good things when things heat up, I heard a lot of I love yous yesterday after I told her the therapist was ready for her to join me but she's done little to nothing about the friends. It's very reactive.

And I don't know why I didn't divorce in 2014. I think I was busy working on myself and buried my head in the sand on taking a deeper look inside myself and whether I could get past the affair. I put the bandaid on by ignoring it. Not confronting or forcing the deeper issue then.


----------



## RWB

Cowboy2 said:


> It's the ability to truly see actions vs. words that shows what the real deal is. And you're right. *She says a lot of good things when things heat up, I heard a lot of I love yous yesterday* after I told her the therapist was ready for her to join me but she's done little to nothing about the friends. *It's very reactive.*


CB2,

Most BS in R can relate to the "it's very reactive". However it goes much deeper. 

Early on in R (1 to 3 years) with my WW, she would sense when I was "struggling with IT". I still remember hearing from her... "Tell me what I have said or done since the affairs that is upsetting you." Truthfully post DD, aside from initially TT/lying about the depth of the affairs, she was doing all she could do, 110%. I know it frustrated her seeing me getting lost in actions years removed. 

Deep down "we" know the truth... The Bell can never be Un-Rung. Attempting Reconciliation after an affair is definitely a paradox.


----------



## bandit.45

Cowboy2 said:


> It's the ability to truly see actions vs. words that shows what the real deal is. And you're right. She says a lot of good things when things heat up, I heard a lot of I love yous yesterday after I told her the therapist was ready for her to join me but she's done little to nothing about the friends. It's very reactive.
> 
> *And I don't know why I didn't divorce in 2014. I think I was busy working on myself and buried my head in the sand on taking a deeper look inside myself and whether I could get past the affair.* I put the bandaid on by ignoring it. Not confronting or forcing the deeper issue then.


Because at the time you were a wounded man. You were on your knees, bleeding out and doing everything you could to staunch the flow. You were cut deeply, but your wife wouldn't drive you to the hospital. She couldn't decide whether to stop your bleeding or let you lay there and die. 

Now that your wound is sutured and healing, you are no longer in survival mode. Most of the original emotional trauma has passed. You have enough emotional distance now to step back to look at what she did objectively. 

You have climbed out of the bomb crater and are now standing on the rim, and with clear eyes you are now surveying the devastation she has wrought upon your life. 












Now that you are seeing things with clear eyes, your desire for self preservation has taken over. You are unwilling to go back to the status quo and accept the treatment she got used to doling out to you. You have objectively quantified the extent of the wrongs she has done you, and you are deciding whether or not keeping her around is worth more than what you lost. 

I see you as a man embarking on a new journey.


----------



## JohnA

Cowboy, 

Going forward at this point I expect you will see a lot of denial and justifications form your WW. She needs to accept many things, including her friends are part of a support network built up to support adultery. By keeping this network in place she is telling you the adultery was justified and remains a viable option. The guy friend's reaction "really?" says it all. Has he ever come to you and apologize? Has he ever told your wife she abused their friendship by lying to him and getting him to go along with adultery? Hell has he ever looked in the mirror and said "how could I"? I wonder if his wife ever thought how could he? 

You mentioned the OM commented adultery with many other woman. How did your wife react? Was her reaction to settle for you? 

Finally what is your IC's school of thought/background? What are they telling you? I ask because I do not want to be like your wife's male friend.


----------



## TDSC60

JohnA said:


> BingoTDSC60. I also wonder if Cowboys and the other Posyers wives are strongly influenced by their age.


I think age is a factor. At least in regard to observing other women her own age and being jealous of what they seem to have. Regardless if it is physical possessions or freedom to act single.

But also personal boundaries are a consideration. With my wife it was alcohol that triggered an almost unbelievable change in her personality. So - no alcohol if I am not with her.


----------



## bandit.45

And sometimes the wayward spouse just doesn't give a fvck.


----------



## TDSC60

bandit.45 said:


> And sometimes the wayward spouse just doesn't give a fvck.


I have always said (when discussing the causes or the "whys" of an affair) that a cheating spouse does it for one reason - they want to do it. They make that choice because they are self centered and the pain it will cause the betrayed spouse is not a consideration.


----------



## Ralph Bellamy

TDSC60 said:


> I have always said (when discussing the causes or the "whys" of an affair) that a cheating spouse does it for one reason - they want to do it. They make that choice because they are self centered and the pain it will cause the betrayed spouse is not a consideration.


They do it because they want to do it, and there's usually a toxic friend to give them a nudge.


----------



## larry.gray

confusednAlone said:


> The scariest part was after investigating, I actually was shocked to learn that *my wife was encouraging her as well *to find a man and no matter what keep your husband around for finacial security. I was shocked but after reading countless articles and stories. Nothing surpises me anymore.


It's going to be a very interesting Christmas at you STBX in-laws house.


----------



## confusednAlone

larry.gray said:


> It's going to be a very interesting Christmas at you STBX in-laws house.


Already been settled. I have xmas she has the eve with the kids. I don't want to spoil the milk with her around.  

Who needs a signature?


----------



## jld

Ralph Bellamy said:


> They do it because they want to do it, and there's usually a toxic friend to give them a nudge.


So the question is, _Why_ do they want to do it?


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> So the question is, _Why_ do they want to do it?


Urges, temptation, dopamine, it feels good, a flawed thought process that one can stop it before it goes to far...


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Urges, temptation, dopamine, it feels good, a flawed thought process that one can stop it before it goes to far...


Further . . . _Why_ the urges, the temptation, etc.?

What is the root?

And could it be different for different people?


----------



## ButtPunch

farsidejunky said:


> Urges, temptation, dopamine, it feels good, a flawed thought process that one can stop it before it goes to far...


It feels good!


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Further . . . _Why_ the urges, the temptation, etc.?
> 
> What is the root?
> 
> And could it be different for different people?


Why do you have urges for sweets? It is a memory of something you have had for which you associate good feelings.

You know they aren't good for you, so you avoid them 90% of the time.

But occasionally you want them anyway.


----------



## ButtPunch

TDSC60 said:


> I have always said (when discussing the causes or the "whys" of an affair) that a cheating spouse does it for one reason - they want to do it. They make that choice because they are self centered and the pain it will cause the betrayed spouse is not a consideration.


Absolutely.....They don't even consider the pain it causes their children either. The ultimate of selfishness is to intentionally damage your kids like that.


----------



## ButtPunch

farsidejunky said:


> Why do you have urges for sweets? It is a memory of something you have had for which you associate good feelings.
> 
> You know they aren't good for you, so you avoid them 90% of the time.
> 
> But occasionally you want them anyway.


and why do you eat them anyway? Because it makes you feel good.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Why do you have urges for sweets? It is a memory of something you have had for which you associate good feelings.
> 
> You know they aren't good for you, so you avoid them 90% of the time.
> 
> But occasionally you want them anyway.


And what do you do that other 90% of time?


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> And what do you do that other 90% of time?


Tell yourself "no".


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Tell yourself "no".


Do you ever eat fruit if you are craving something sweet?

Or is it really a complete No?


----------



## jld

Cowboy, to bring this back to you, directly . . . That man was meeting some needs in your wife. Far is right that she needs to say No to herself. She is with you and nobody else if you are to remain married.

But that does not mean she cannot have something sweet. You can be that sweetness. You can do that by meeting her emotional needs, among other things. 

That man is like a rich dessert, tasting good initially, but rotting her teeth and making her fat.

Fruit will keep her healthy, and taste good . . . eventually. She just has to go through withdrawal first.

This assumes, of course, that you want to stick with the marriage. If you don't, let her know that. Both of you can then move on.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Do you ever eat fruit if you are craving something sweet?
> 
> Or is it really a complete No?


The analogy stops there.

There is no substitute for your spouse when it comes to sexual needs. Perhaps for others, but that is the one that is exclusive.


----------



## ButtPunch

Cowboy

Reconciliation is hard work. In the middle of it myself. You seem to be ate up with resentment for not handling the 
situation as you should have from the beginning. You rugswept earlier and now your heart
has hardened and emotionally you have checked out. These are long odds to overcome.

Can I ask you a question? Your WW described your marriage as terrible and that's why she cheated.
You were blindsided I am sure. How does she describe the marriage now? I bet she says good 
but things are probably gone back to what they were 10 years ago (plus your resentment).

How did things go from terrible to good? What did you do differently to start meeting all those unmet 
needs of hers. My guess is nothing and that they are all excuses she generated to justify like every 
cheater does.

I really don't know if you can turn this around but I wish you luck. Your resentment needs to be dealt
with head on or this marriage is doomed. Remember your wife isn't responsible for your happiness, you
are. Choose to be happy with or without her.


----------



## drifting on

Cowboy

Here is my opinion, you can take it for what it's worth. I think this affair has damaged you more then you ever thought, so bad that you couldn't truly comprehend the affair through your pain. You have survived up to now, but now you are finding just how damaging her actions and inactions have been. You are finding that many people are thought of well before you. You struggle with the aspect that she lay next you at night when her heart belonged to OM.

You don't feel like plan B, you are finding you are way lower then plan B. Everything about her affair was more important, her friends more important, her not allowing you to heal more important. You see now that her love for you is only if you continue to take care of her. She is not in love with you, that ship sailed long ago with her heart. No cowboy, you are finding that she wanted out, she still won't help you heal, and this tells you she cares nothing of your heart. Your wife has done every possible aspect wrong, and now you know her "I love you" is only empty words. There has been no action of love, telling you little tidbits here and there is only to prolong her security, it has nothing to do with her love for you. 

When you learned of the affair you were damaged severely, and that is to be expected. There is no way with the amount of pain you are and were in that you could think clearly. Now that some time has passed you are finding she is nothing what you thought she was. In fact you are probably wondering if she ever loved you as much as she did OM. Even after the affair ended, she kept every friend, she gas lighted you, she tore you down to everyone, and that leaves you filled with anger and questions. 

I think you feel that your wife could not love or respect you after the actions she displayed. Your inner feelings are that you may be able to forgive in time but reconciling would bring you long term damage. By that I mean, that you don't feel you could ever be at peace with yourself nor ever truly be happy. 

This is my opinion of your situation, and if you do decide to reconcile you have an upward battle that will be very trying. Reconciliation is the hardest work I've done, not one single day has been easy. At the same time divorce will be difficult as well, and I do not know which you are deciding to choose. 

I wish you well cowboy, God bless and best of luck to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Anon1111 said:


> hey dude-- you don't have to let it go. that is totally your choice.
> 
> she made her choice and you have your own choice. you are not required to do anything.
> 
> I think you should just tell her after living with it for a while, you've realized you're not OK with how things turned out.
> 
> she's been reliant on the premise that you'll suck it up and deal with it. then she gets to play in the wiggle room you allow her in that space your self guilt provides.
> 
> f- that man. you don't owe her that.


^^^ This Right here. Forget all of the psycho babble garbage. Sometimes, it is fine healthy and helpful to move on. It is okay to try extremely hard on something, then realize, "hey, this is something I can't let go and I am done." Don't let guilt or selflessness keep you in turmoil. She may have tried hard as well, but it is okay if it wasn't/isn't enough for you. No, it doesn't make you a bad guy, quitter, coward or any other excuse you can be accused of by others or write. 


Contrary to popular belief, resentment, anger and hurt are okay when they are acted upon constructively. You resent the affair, you are angry she didn't talk to you and it hurts you deeply so, move on. These emotions become dangerous when you feel OBLIGATED, pride or whatever, to continue down a path because of others wishes. Like "Oh she tries so hard, I must..." No, you can have your fill weeks, months or even yeas later. Is it unfair? Maybe. Still, the affair put you in this place not the reconciliation.


It's okay to want your own happiness. No, it isn't selfish.


----------



## larry.gray

farsidejunky said:


> The analogy stops there.
> 
> There is no substitute for your spouse when it comes to sexual needs. Perhaps for others, but that is the one that is exclusive.


QFT.

This is the type of analogy that excuses cheating short of PIV.


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> And what do you do that other 90% of time?


Masturbate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> Cowboy, to bring this back to you, directly . . . That man was meeting some needs in your wife. Far is right that she needs to say No to herself. She is with you and nobody else if you are to remain married.
> 
> But that does not mean she cannot have something sweet. You can be that sweetness. You can do that by meeting her emotional needs, among other things.
> 
> That man is like a rich dessert, tasting good initially, but rotting her teeth and making her fat.
> 
> Fruit will keep her healthy, and taste good . . . eventually. She just has to go through withdrawal first.
> 
> This assumes, of course, that you want to stick with the marriage. If you don't, let her know that. Both of you can then move on.


Yeah but she wanted more than his Good and Plenty. 

She wanted the whole rack of candy: Big Hunks, Butterfingers, Bit 'O Honeys, Mr. Goodbars 

....Maybe a threeway with Jolly Roger and Baby Ruth.?.... 


Greed.




_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cowboy2

ButtPunch said:


> Cowboy
> 
> Reconciliation is hard work. In the middle of it myself. You seem to be ate up with resentment for not handling the
> situation as you should have from the beginning. You rugswept earlier and now your heart
> has hardened and emotionally you have checked out. These are long odds to overcome.
> 
> Can I ask you a question? Your WW described your marriage as terrible and that's why she cheated.
> You were blindsided I am sure. How does she describe the marriage now? I bet she says good
> but things are probably gone back to what they were 10 years ago (plus your resentment).
> 
> How did things go from terrible to good? What did you do differently to start meeting all those unmet
> needs of hers. My guess is nothing and that they are all excuses she generated to justify like every
> cheater does.
> 
> I really don't know if you can turn this around but I wish you luck. Your resentment needs to be dealt
> with head on or this marriage is doomed. Remember your wife isn't responsible for your happiness, you
> are. Choose to be happy with or without her.


And there's the rub isn't it? And a major cause of my ongoing resentment. The marriage wasn't really any worse at that time than any other time. She was more unhappy then but the marriage wasn't. She tried telling me she's was under a lot of stress by going back to work full time earlier that year and when she asked for my help with some of the housework I would refuse. I called bull****. The reason is because I know myself, I wouldn't do that. I don't do that. Back then I would have doubted myself and thought gee maybe I haven't been as helpful as I could be. Now I know it's a crock of crap. Which feeds the resentment.


----------



## Cowboy2

drifting on said:


> Cowboy
> 
> Here is my opinion, you can take it for what it's worth. I think this affair has damaged you more then you ever thought, so bad that you couldn't truly comprehend the affair through your pain. You have survived up to now, but now you are finding just how damaging her actions and inactions have been. You are finding that many people are thought of well before you. You struggle with the aspect that she lay next you at night when her heart belonged to OM.
> 
> You don't feel like plan B, you are finding you are way lower then plan B. Everything about her affair was more important, her friends more important, her not allowing you to heal more important. You see now that her love for you is only if you continue to take care of her. She is not in love with you, that ship sailed long ago with her heart. No cowboy, you are finding that she wanted out, she still won't help you heal, and this tells you she cares nothing of your heart. Your wife has done every possible aspect wrong, and now you know her "I love you" is only empty words. There has been no action of love, telling you little tidbits here and there is only to prolong her security, it has nothing to do with her love for you.
> 
> When you learned of the affair you were damaged severely, and that is to be expected. There is no way with the amount of pain you are and were in that you could think clearly. Now that some time has passed you are finding she is nothing what you thought she was. In fact you are probably wondering if she ever loved you as much as she did OM. Even after the affair ended, she kept every friend, she gas lighted you, she tore you down to everyone, and that leaves you filled with anger and questions.
> 
> I think you feel that your wife could not love or respect you after the actions she displayed. Your inner feelings are that you may be able to forgive in time but reconciling would bring you long term damage. By that I mean, that you don't feel you could ever be at peace with yourself nor ever truly be happy.
> 
> This is my opinion of your situation, and if you do decide to reconcile you have an upward battle that will be very trying. Reconciliation is the hardest work I've done, not one single day has been easy. At the same time divorce will be difficult as well, and I do not know which you are deciding to choose.
> 
> I wish you well cowboy, God bless and best of luck to you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've let this digest for a few days. Overall I think you hit on a lot of how I feel. Not every detail but the overall flavor and feeling. 

Realizing this stuff and thinking about it in the past would have crippled me with sadness. Now I'm like yup and it just pisses me off.


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## jld

Cowboy2 said:


> And there's the rub isn't it? And a major cause of my ongoing resentment. The marriage wasn't really any worse at that time than any other time. She was more unhappy then but the marriage wasn't. She tried telling me she's was under a lot of stress by going back to work full time earlier that year and when she asked for my help with some of the housework I would refuse. I called bull****. The reason is because I know myself, I wouldn't do that. I don't do that. Back then I would have doubted myself and thought gee maybe I haven't been as helpful as I could be. Now I know it's a crock of crap. Which feeds the resentment.


Again, why do you not just leave?


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## TRy

Cowboy2 said:


> Now I'm like yup and it just pisses me off.


 Of course you are pissed off. There are 3 major forms of betrayal, and your wife betrayed you in all 3 ways.

1) There is the betrayal of sexual and non-sexual physical intimacy. You had an agreement of monogamy where she was suppose to be physically intimate with just you, and she broke that agreement behind your back. She was meeting someone else's physical intimacy needs and her own needs while leaving you high and dry wondering what was going on. 

2) There is the emotional betrayal. She put herself in the position of falling in love with someone else behind your back, and then left you hanging there feeling unloved and not knowing why. She was getting her own emotional needs met by another man while also meeting his emotional needs, again leaving you high and dry wondering what was going on.

3) There is the personal betrayal. As a married couple, it is suppose to be the two of you against the world covering each other's backs. You are suppose defend your spouse when others badmouth them behind their back, instead your wife was the one leading the charge in slandering you to others. Your wife did not even have the decency to leave her own family out of the affair as she badmouthed you with her lies. Imagine what you would think of what your wife was saying about you behind your back, and what you would think about your wife as a person, if she were just someone that you knew and she was not your spouse. You would consider that person to be your enemy because she in fact was, you just did not know it. Instead of covering your back and protecting you, your wife was secretly your worst enemy, secretly attacking you from behind, not giving your a chance to defend your self. Look up the term "Backstabber" and you will see that it fits your wife to a tee.

Above I talk about needs because in the book "His Needs, Her Needs" they show how these things are real needs and not just wants. In betraying you she was starving your soul by meeting these needs for another man at the expense of not meeting them for you. Sure you are pissed off, you have a right to be.


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## ButtPunch

Cowboy2 said:


> And there's the rub isn't it? And a major cause of my ongoing resentment. The marriage wasn't really any worse at that time than any other time. She was more unhappy then but the marriage wasn't. She tried telling me she's was under a lot of stress by going back to work full time earlier that year and when she asked for my help with some of the housework I would refuse. I called bull****. The reason is because I know myself, I wouldn't do that. I don't do that. Back then I would have doubted myself and thought gee maybe I haven't been as helpful as I could be. Now I know it's a crock of crap. Which feeds the resentment.


Cowboy you can beat the resentment if you want too but you have to recognize it for what it is. It is a cancer that will grow if you feed it. 

You don't owe your WW anything, but you do owe it to yourself to be happy. Don't let what your wife did six years ago affect your happiness now. Don't give it that much power. 

I've been thru it myself and when a "resentful" thought enters my mind I squash it immediately like a bug.


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## Anon1111

Cowboy2 said:


> And there's the rub isn't it? And a major cause of my ongoing resentment. The marriage wasn't really any worse at that time than any other time. She was more unhappy then but the marriage wasn't. She tried telling me she's was under a lot of stress by going back to work full time earlier that year and when she asked for my help with some of the housework I would refuse. I called bull****. The reason is because I know myself, I wouldn't do that. I don't do that. Back then I would have doubted myself and thought gee maybe I haven't been as helpful as I could be. Now I know it's a crock of crap. Which feeds the resentment.


maybe one way to deal with the resentment is to accept that you're dealing with a selfish person.

what she is doing is not about you, it's about her.

you expect more of her, but maybe this is because you don't really accept who she really is.

assess her actions, identify who you are really dealing with and then decide if you are OK being in a relationship with this type of person.

don't obscure the issue by ruminating on what she "should" do. what is she ACTUALLY doing?


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## 2ntnuf

ButtPunch said:


> Cowboy you can beat the resentment if you want too but you have to recognize it for what it is. It is a cancer that will grow if you feed it.
> 
> You don't owe your WW anything, but you do owe it to yourself to be happy. Don't let what your wife did six years ago affect your happiness now. Don't give it that much power.
> 
> I've been thru it myself and *when a "resentful" thought enters my mind I squash it immediately like a bug*.


Please elaborate.


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## ne9907

Cowboy2 said:


> I've let this digest for a few days. Overall I think you hit on a lot of how I feel. Not every detail but the overall flavor and feeling.
> 
> Realizing this stuff and thinking about it in the past would have crippled me with sadness. Now I'm like yup and it just pisses me off.


Don't wait any longer. Reading your thread has made me wish I had actually found everything ex did. I am now divorced. I do not know all the affairs he had. I do not know the details. I know nothing.

I was married for 15 years. Some might see me as a WAW because one day I woke up and realized I had to run away. I had to get away from him.
After I left I found out he molested a young girl, he also had several affairs, all of this happened when we were married.

I am completely over him, but have not fully healed. 

Seek the light Cowboy.


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## larry.gray

jld said:


> Again, why do you not just leave?


Why are you so anti-reconciliation?

I hear regular complaints that TAM is far too anti-reconciliation. You seem quite oppose, pushing and suggesting he should just end it. No one else is, they are suggesting Cowboy should search his feelings.


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## GusPolinski

larry.gray said:


> Why are you so anti-reconciliation?
> 
> I hear regular complaints that TAM is far too anti-reconciliation. You seem quite oppose, pushing and suggesting he should just end it. No one else is, they are suggesting Cowboy should search his feelings.


FWIW, I don't think he should leave.

I think he should tell his wife to GTFO.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

larry.gray said:


> Why are you so anti-reconciliation?
> 
> I hear regular complaints that TAM is far too anti-reconciliation. You seem quite oppose, pushing and suggesting he should just end it. No one else is, they are suggesting Cowboy should search his feelings.


Asking him why he does not leave _is_ asking him to search his feelings.


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## ButtPunch

2ntnuf said:


> Please elaborate.


Dealing with Uncomfortable Feelings & Creating Positive Ones
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf

ButtPunch said:


> Dealing with Uncomfortable Feelings & Creating Positive Ones
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you.


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## VladDracul

larry.gray said:


> Why are you so anti-reconciliation?
> 
> I hear regular complaints that TAM is far too anti-reconciliation. You seem quite oppose, pushing and suggesting he should just end it. No one else is, they are suggesting Cowboy should search his feelings.


There are two absolute prerequisite for a BS to reconcile with the wayward. 1. the BS be able to tolerate the fact that someone else has screwed their spouse, and 2. the wayward spouse has to run point on the reconciliation.
More men than you'd believe will accept number 1, and internally feel, "it will wash off". They my not like it but are more than willing to have their stolen, but damaged, "property" (just a metaphor so don't wig out) returned in one piece. Number 2 is tricky. When the WS drags their feet about playing a lead roll, it'll never be up to speed and likely doomed; depending on how much more shyt the BS is willing to take for the privileged of staying married to them.


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## ButtPunch

VladDracul said:


> There are two absolute prerequisite for a BS to reconcile with the wayward. 1. the BS be able to tolerate the fact that someone else has screwed their spouse, and 2. the wayward spouse has to run point on the reconciliation.
> More men than you'd believe will accept number 1, and internally feel, "it will wash off". They my not like it but are more than willing to have their stolen, but damaged, "property" (just a metaphor so don't wig out) returned in one piece. Number 2 is tricky. When the WS drags their feet about playing a lead roll, it'll never be up to speed and likely doomed; depending on how much more shyt the BS is willing to take for the privileged of staying married to them.


It's all about resentment. The WS has to do everything in their power to keep resentment from growing in their spouse but the BS has to do the same thing. That's the hard part. The WS cannot get rid of it all on their own. The BS has to do heir part thus making R really tough. 

The BS who sits back and thinks the WS has to fix everything is doomed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cowboy2

TRy said:


> Of course you are pissed off. There are 3 major forms of betrayal, and your wife betrayed you in all 3 ways.
> 
> 1) There is the betrayal of sexual and non-sexual physical intimacy. You had an agreement of monogamy where she was suppose to be physically intimate with just you, and she broke that agreement behind your back. She was meeting someone else's physical intimacy needs and her own needs while leaving you high and dry wondering what was going on.
> 
> 2) There is the emotional betrayal. She put herself in the position of falling in love with someone else behind your back, and then left you hanging there feeling unloved and not knowing why. She was getting her own emotional needs met by another man while also meeting his emotional needs, again leaving you high and dry wondering what was going on.
> 
> 3) There is the personal betrayal. As a married couple, it is suppose to be the two of you against the world covering each other's backs. You are suppose defend your spouse when others badmouth them behind their back, instead your wife was the one leading the charge in slandering you to others. Your wife did not even have the decency to leave her own family out of the affair as she badmouthed you with her lies. Imagine what you would think of what your wife was saying about you behind your back, and what you would think about your wife as a person, if she were just someone that you knew and she was not your spouse. You would consider that person to be your enemy because she in fact was, you just did not know it. Instead of covering your back and protecting you, your wife was secretly your worst enemy, secretly attacking you from behind, not giving your a chance to defend your self. Look up the term "Backstabber" and you will see that it fits your wife to a tee.
> 
> Above I talk about needs because in the book "His Needs, Her Needs" they show how these things are real needs and not just wants. In betraying you she was starving your soul by meeting these needs for another man at the expense of not meeting them for you. Sure you are pissed off, you have a right to be.


I appreciate your insights, this is a great summary. They are all relevant of course but the one point that really stuck out at my was #3.
This points to a major source of emotional disconnection and a huge reason why I don't know how I can ever really trust her again. It's not about trusting she won't have another affair, it's the lack of trust she doesn't have my back and says s**t behind my back about me. 

When you said imagine her as someone I knew in general and not as my wife that gave me serious pause. If that were true when I was around them I would be sure not to share much, keep it close to the vest. It's no wonder I have such a lack of trust in her.


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## Wolfman1968

Cowboy2 said:


> And I don't know why I didn't divorce in 2014. I think I was busy working on myself and buried my head in the sand on taking a deeper look inside myself and whether I could get past the affair. I put the bandaid on by ignoring it. Not confronting or forcing the deeper issue then.


Cowboy, I don't know you, and so I may be way off base. But let me try to read between the lines of your posting, and even of your screen name.

I'm going to speculate that part of the reason (major part?) that you didn't divorce when this first came out is that you view yourself as a self-sacrificing individual who will "take one for the team." And I think it's a characteristic in men that is often overlooked. 

Many men are conditioned to put themselves--often their very lives--at the disposal of others. Men dying in ships because of "women and children first", the soldier who leaps on a hand grenade to cover it with his body to save his comrades, sacrifice in sports for the whole team, etc. These are the kinds of images that men are expected to honor---the silent, uncomplaining, "Cowboy" mystique.

You say that you called BS on her false claim that you "wouldn't help around the house" because you know yourself. I dare say, that is because you know darn well that you sacrifice and do your duty when called to it. (Part of my reading between the lines.)

So, if I'm right, it would not be a stretch AT ALL for you to sacrifice your own needs for the "greater good" of reconciliation. Just another instance of "taking one for the team." 

Except you are now realizing that your self-sacrifice is neither helping the marriage nor earning you any TRUE gratitude from your wife. Instead, you just get a lot of babble from certain posters about "not meeting her emotional needs." Well, I say, what about YOUR needs? Is she exhibiting even 1% of the kind of self sacrifice she expects from you? Is SHE willing to "take one for the team" herself in terms of her toxic friends, willingness to come clean, etc. for the benefit of the marriage?

I think you are just now realizing you are "taking one for the team" for a team that doesn't even exist. There is no team. There is no joint benefit or shared success, like a real team. There is only a Black Hole of Emotional Need that, in an entitled fashion, expects you to sacrifice yourself even MORE for her own benefit.

Now, if you disagree, feel free to tell me I'm way off base. But this is what I see behind your posts. The self-sacrificing, uncomplaining Cowboy.


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## Dyokemm

Cowboy,

I still can't see how you can possibly R with your WW when you STILL don't have a complete picture of what she did, in its entirety.....you have to know WHAT you are being asked to forgive IMO.

And your WW does not seem to have become more forthcoming about what she actually did with this POS.


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## Cowboy2

Wolfman1968 said:


> Cowboy, I don't know you, and so I may be way off base. But let me try to read between the lines of your posting, and even of your screen name.
> 
> I'm going to speculate that part of the reason (major part?) that you didn't divorce when this first came out is that you view yourself as a self-sacrificing individual who will "take one for the team." And I think it's a characteristic in men that is often overlooked.
> 
> Many men are conditioned to put themselves--often their very lives--at the disposal of others. Men dying in ships because of "women and children first", the soldier who leaps on a hand grenade to cover it with his body to save his comrades, sacrifice in sports for the whole team, etc. These are the kinds of images that men are expected to honor---the silent, uncomplaining, "Cowboy" mystique.
> 
> You say that you called BS on her false claim that you "wouldn't help around the house" because you know yourself. I dare say, that is because you know darn well that you sacrifice and do your duty when called to it. (Part of my reading between the lines.)
> 
> So, if I'm right, it would not be a stretch AT ALL for you to sacrifice your own needs for the "greater good" of reconciliation. Just another instance of "taking one for the team."
> 
> Except you are now realizing that your self-sacrifice is neither helping the marriage nor earning you any TRUE gratitude from your wife. Instead, you just get a lot of babble from certain posters about "not meeting her emotional needs." Well, I say, what about YOUR needs? Is she exhibiting even 1% of the kind of self sacrifice she expects from you? Is SHE willing to "take one for the team" herself in terms of her toxic friends, willingness to come clean, etc. for the benefit of the marriage?
> 
> I think you are just now realizing you are "taking one for the team" for a team that doesn't even exist. There is no team. There is no joint benefit or shared success, like a real team. There is only a Black Hole of Emotional Need that, in an entitled fashion, expects you to sacrifice yourself even MORE for her own benefit.
> 
> Now, if you disagree, feel free to tell me I'm way off base. But this is what I see behind your posts. The self-sacrificing, uncomplaining Cowboy.


There's a lot of truth to this. I think the big difference now is I see it with open eyes that many parts of the team aspect aren't in place. The parts that are there are for the family like fairly equal in household duties, our daughters activities, rides, planning, etc. 

What's NOT there is the "us against them" mentality. The ability to share on a deep and vulnerable level mostly for me due to seeing how she can emotionally manipulate and not wanting to give her any ammo or how she can take a benign piece of info and twist it into something she'll tell her mom or bestie behind my back. The watch your back piece.


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## 225985

Cowboy2 said:


> That I have turmoil in my heart. I'm angry at my wife and angry at myself for how I handled things during the affair. That I'm looking for inner peace with it. I'm finally taking a deep look inside to see if I can forgive and I probably don't like what I'm seeing.
> 
> 
> 
> The affair was deeply emotional. She totally gave her heart to POSOM. It may be that I'm finally facing the fact I can't forgive that.



A person cannot always choose who they fall in love with. At a low point in my marriage i developed unwanted feelings for another, totally one sided. For two years i have tried to shed those feelings -anti depressants, anti anxiety, self help books, IC, and TAM. 

To me it is not the existence of the feelings that define the betrayal, but the actions of the person after they recognize and acknowledge those feelings.


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## Dan Moloney

why would you let these people into your home they are disgusting and 
your wife has no respect .
they will talk within them selves and mock you 
concidering they were the people that put you through so much pain 
i wouldnt let them any where near my house


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## MattMatt

Dan Moloney said:


> why would you let these people into your home they are disgusting and
> your wife has no respect .
> they will talk within them selves and mock you
> concidering they were the people that put you through so much pain
> i wouldnt let them any where near my house


Even if they don't mock him he might need your be careful about who he lets in.


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