# The whole BS vs. WS thing(vent)



## proflex97 (Mar 21, 2008)

Like a lot of people I have had problems in my marriage and I have read many a site, have read/reading different books and my wife and I are doing MC.

I strayed but my wife and I are trying to work as a team to fix our marriage to be better. Which from other reading seems to not be the norm. We are both identifying what was missing from the marriage that allowed me to think straying was a good answer. Which seems like a good idea since we are both in the marriage and you cannot force someone to love you or stay with you. You can only make an environment where that person wants to stay with you.

But you read other forums and there is nothing but punishment and control attitudes that I can see. WS feel they had the right to an affair because of something missing from the marriage. Once the BS finds out they want the WS to change to help them heal. All fine except I don't see anywhere where the BS is supposed to change to help make the marriage better for the WS. Just a repeated call for being "owed" for hurting the BS. How does that address the issues that caused the WS to stray in the first place? What the BS gets a pass because they were hurt? 

I don't get how this is supposed to make for good marriages after an affair.

How does this make for a healthy marriage in the end?


----------



## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

I think both parties need to make an effort to figure out why the marriage got to the state it did. There is no free pass here.

The difference if someone had an affair is that they have to regain the trust of their spouse. I honestly think that the more a couple speaks of how their marriage got to that point, the better chance the betrayed will forgive and begin to trust, providing they are both making positive changes within the marriage.

The more understanding the husband/wife are towards the other's feelings, the better the chance things will get better within the marriage.


----------



## proflex97 (Mar 21, 2008)

swedish:
I agree with you but that is not what I seem to find. You seem to find a BS that just is hurt and wants "payment" for being hurt. So you read WS that are miserable trying to "make up" for their mistake. How does that situation lead to a better recovered marriage.


----------



## AZMOMOFTWO (Jun 30, 2008)

As someone who was cheated on...maybe I can give you one perspective. Two months ago my husband said something was missing. He still loved me, didn't know what was missing or how to get it back. So I asked him (no ego...just really wanted to fix it) and it seemed to be all on me. I didn't do this, did too much of that, etc. In fact some of the very things he complained about (working too much) he did as well. I decided I could get mad or try to fix it. For two months I worked on those issues. While I did that, I liked the improvements in myself. I started making changes for me. He said that he liked these changes....all the while during that two months he was sleeping with the neighbor. When I found out, I was done working on it. No I was not taking him back. After all I had a lot to give and didn't deserve that. He worked on nothing during that time in fact said he didn't want to work on the marriage if it was to be it just would be. Everything changed when he was caught. I am angry but in no way want him to pay. When he finally thought it was over he realized that was not what he wanted and asked me to go to counseling with him and to forgive him. I have. So this is where I agree with you. Marriage is not a debt. That does not exonerate him from what he did, but I have forgiven him. Its hard to forget, its still too fresh. When he began to feel something change he never came to me. He turned to someone else. So in order to fix the original thing we are now talking about what we can do differently. You see I don't want the marriage we had. Although I thought it was happy up until 2 months ago (he hid how he felt) if we go back to where we were it will happen again or the marriage will end. This time we're trying things together, we are both working on changes. In the beginning he made me feel like it was all my fault something was missing, then when he went elsewhere he didn't find what he was looking for. It made him feel worse. Then he realized there was something within him too. It does take two. When I initially found out there was anger, threats, and many cuss words .... but that doesn't continue. Yeah, I have some bad moments and that is to be expected. I also expect that he will now be 100% committed in order for me to try. If he weren't then it would be time to end it. 

I don't know your situation but maybe if you could talk to your spouse. Yeah they need reassurance you are committed to fixing it but you also need to address the original problem. Really listen to each other. If you get defensive it won't work. So listen to your spouse but also communicate that same expectation. If you or your spouse can't do it without anger or being defensive its too soon. But if you can be open and honest and really listen, you can fix it if you both still love each other. It sounds like you are working as a team so you are are the right track. (Be advised though there will be some bad moments...just be supportive and try to lighten the mood. The more time goes by..the fewer the bad moments)


----------



## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

:iagree:


proflex97 said:


> swedish:
> I agree with you but that is not what I seem to find. You seem to find a BS that just is hurt and wants "payment" for being hurt. So you read WS that are miserable trying to "make up" for their mistake. How does that situation lead to a better recovered marriage.


If it's one-sided, I honestly don't know. I think many marriages last beyond adultery but don't fully recover. Others end because the betrayed spouse cannot forgive. I don't see how holding resentment towards your spouse will foster a happy marriage.

I can still see the hurt in my husband's eyes, the tears and true remorse for his actions (he had an emotional affair). At this point (1 year later) I'm doing much better than he is with the whole thing and I keep telling him if that's what we needed to be where we are now, then so be it. I just want to put it all behind us.

Forgiveness is key. If you are able to forgive you gain the peace you need to move forward. Forgetting, well, not gonna happen but it's also a reminder not to forget to work on the marriage and keep it on the top of the priority list.


----------



## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

AZMOMOFTWO-

What a cooooool post! I really liked the bit where you said: "You see I don't want the marriage we had." 

That is the tops.


----------



## carmaenforcer (Mar 7, 2008)

I was cheated on and am one of those people you mentioned with a punishment and control attitude. My girl friend at the time cheated on me with her Ex because she claims she was torn, not knowing whom she wanted to end up with. According to her, it was nothing that I did, because of this I don't feel no responsibility for her mistake and so am justified in exacting any kind of punishment and rules I choose.
She, like you, hates this and wishes to get past it with a simple apology. Unfortunately for her, after committing the crime of betrayal, like any criminal she forfeited her right in having any say in the coarse of actions to follow.

In your case, if you would have sat her down and talked about the issues you where having that where pushing you into cheating things might be different.

You see, what you did was the same thing all cheating spouses do, blame problems in your relationship for your cheating as if the person pushed you to seek comfort in the arms of another, and you know that's just a cop-out. 
There are many other options in resolving marital/relationship issues and cheating is not one of them.

Now, you did the crime and you should either do the time or just get out of the relationship. She might owe you for being a bad wife, rude, uncaring, selfish in bed, etc., but you now owe her for having sex with another person and how can you make that up. You either let her cheat and call it even, or let her get her vindication however "SHE" (not you) sees fit.

Remember you are the defendant that has been found guilty, she is the judge, jury and executioner.


----------



## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

carmaenforcer-

Phew, I don't think would want to play by those rules, I would rather just forgive her. But if I could not do that I would have to go - rather do that than exact a price.

Exacting retribution would probably result in less sex, and that would just be silly. Now on the other hand, if she wants to try and make it up to me then....

Oh yeah, would someone mind telling me what BS and WS stand for.


----------



## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

MT~
Betrayed Spouse/Wandering Spouse...it's used on some other forum(s)


----------



## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Cheers, I've not been in the "community" very long.


----------



## proflex97 (Mar 21, 2008)

carmaenforcer said:


> I was cheated on and am one of those people you mentioned with a punishment and control attitude. My girl friend at the time cheated on me with her Ex because she claims she was torn, not knowing whom she wanted to end up with. According to her, it was nothing that I did, because of this I don't feel no responsibility for her mistake and so am justified in exacting any kind of punishment and rules I choose.
> She, like you, hates this and wishes to get past it with a simple apology. Unfortunately for her, after committing the crime of betrayal, like any criminal she forfeited her right in having any say in the coarse of actions to follow.
> 
> In your case, if you would have sat her down and talked about the issues you where having that where pushing you into cheating things might be different.
> ...


See this is the attitude I don't understand. Why would anyone want to reconcile with someone with this attitude?? Thing is you see WS trying, which I don't understand. What keep the marriage at any cost?

I don't see how the crime punishment model creates a good marriage in the end. You cannot force someone to love you, how does the crime punishment model do that? "Doing the time" is going to make someone want to stay in the marriage how? Not saying you sweep everything under the rug but retribution solves what problems.

I can see what swedish posted as being the only outcome. Sure the marriage continues but it never recovers.

If recovery is not the end goal then why even try?


----------



## hitrockbottom (Jun 3, 2008)

Yeah the one sided mentality isn't the proper approach in my mind. I do believe that it needs to be discussed and sat down and dissected.

There is no point in going through all that pain if you are going to come full circle and it happen again from either party.

If the WS is remorseful and honestly tries then there should be effort put in by the BS. If not then a stalemate will occur. Either that or the WS will loose all selfrespect and still not be happy in the relationship.

Yes the WS deserves more to put more effort into the recovery because they were the one that did the crime. At the same time effort needs to be shown by the BS.

Take for example:
You make yourself a Tuna Sandwich. You take a bite of it and set it in the freezer. Couple hours later you come back take some more set it back down.
You love that Tuna Sandwich, so you keep coming back to it. Eventually your going to get the satisfaction of eating the whole Tuna Sandwich. Then you make another one. Do it again and the enjoyment keeps coming back.

However, say you take a few bites of that Tuna Sandwich. Set it back and forget about or just don't make an effort to go back for more. Eventually that Tuna Sandwich is going to go bad. You had the choice of either eating or letting it go bad. You let it go bad. Now you can't enjoy that Tuna Sandwich anymore. 
What do you do? Either make a new Tuna Sandwich and make sure you eat that one or you let that Tuna Sandwich go bad also...eventually your not going to want anymore Tuna Sandwich's...


Eventually if you don't work on your marriage, your not going to want to be in it anymore.


----------



## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

Seeking retribution on the WS probably isnt the best way to go about it. But its a reaction to the hurt. There's a cycle to healing through such betrayal and not all emotions can be analyzed for their productivity when dealing with such raw emotions. I should think that cheating on one's spouse isnt exactly conducive to a healthy marriage either. But that, too, is a reaction and one might consider it retribution, also.


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

It is not so much a crime and punishment model. Think of it this way. A person who's spouse has lied, broken their marriage vows, exposed their "beloved" to STDs, spent time and resources that should have been focused on the family has a huge amount to make up for.

Too bad that you think it too large a task to atone for infidelity. I believe that someone who strays may have their reasons that led them to do so. However, as a betrayed spouse, the big worries are that the cheating and lying is an indication of a lack of character, a sham of affections.

Trust is gone.

That said, bluntly, but to the point is best, there is a possibility that the marriage can be repaired if both parties are willing to give it a try.

However, the biggest chore for the betrayed spouse? being willing to put their guard down and be wounded even more.

The biggest chore for the cheating spouse? Taking their lumps, admitting their failings, and enthusiastically trying to regain the trust and affection of their spouse.


----------



## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

swedish said:


> I think both parties need to make an effort to figure out why the marriage got to the state it did. There is no free pass here.
> 
> The difference if someone had an affair is that they have to regain the trust of their spouse. I honestly think that the more a couple speaks of how their marriage got to that point, the better chance the betrayed will forgive and begin to trust, providing they are both making positive changes within the marriage.
> 
> The more understanding the husband/wife are towards the other's feelings, the better the chance things will get better within the marriage.


:iagree:

But I would go further to say that there wasn't a need to stra and you could have worked within the rlationship to fix the issue, ou didn't and that is a selfish act. But both need to work harder if the marriage is going to work.

draconis


----------



## honey28 (Aug 1, 2008)

as a bs, it's not that i want "payment" for how i feel, i would actually rather not have been cheated on and as a result not have to feel this way. i agree that it takes both people to make a marriage work, but the offender has to take responsibility for his/her actions because regardless of what the problems were in the marriage the ws had an obligation to communicate with his/her partner and try to fix the marriage, not to use the problems as an excuse to stray. in fact, if the marriage was bad/had problems then i am sure BOTH the bs and ws were unhappy to some degree, but only one of them chose to be unfaithful, in my opinion that choice speaks volumes about the ws's problem solving skills, ability to communicate, maturity level, and committment to the marriage. In any arena of life, if you commit a crime and there is a victim involved you must pay some sort of restitution, marriage is not an exception to this rule.(jmo)


----------



## carmaenforcer (Mar 7, 2008)

:iagree: totally agree
Dang *honey28* you literally took the words right out of my mouth, only eloquently and not a-hole-esk as I would have.
:smthumbup: So.... Yeah, what honey28 said.


*MarkTwain*
True dat, on the risking "less sex" just being the acts of an insane man, but I honestly wasn't getting that much or that great to begin with so I figured, F-it! I got nothing to loose j/k

No, I actually do love my wife very much, but she had to regain my trust, change her behavior and live under a veil of scrutiny for a while before "the healing could start".
The sex weapon (or the withholding there-of) has been pulled on me before, but has since been rendered neutral for I have counter measures in place that are so far serving as a deterrent.
Sometimes a cold war is the best one can hope for till peace can be negotiated.


----------



## Triton (Jul 8, 2008)

I am pretty much with Carmaenforcer, but before doing all that just either forgive and forget- or- set yourself free. Life is too short to play games. Pick up and go !


----------



## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

carmaenforcer said:


> The sex weapon (or the withholding there-of) has been pulled on me before, but has since been rendered neutral for I have counter measures in place that are so far serving as a deterrent.


Could you give us an outline of what form these warheads take, and where they're targeted? Also how effective are they?


----------



## proflex97 (Mar 21, 2008)

Ok several responses as to how the WS needs to take more effort because they have less character and should've communicated there needs better. Or they should've just picked up and left (easier said then done). Which seem to be the popular simple responses across the web. 

What if the eventual WS had tried for months or years to get the eventual BS to change to make the marriage better. But the BS choose to NOT address the issues because they where happy with the marriage? The BS only really cared once the A was exposed then they are hurt and they want the WS to atone for every action. But yet again the BS will not address their side of the coin, they feel they don't have to because they were wronged. 

I ask this because I see it over and over, at this site and others. That does not seem like a healthy way to reconcile a marriage. If the WS still sees issues what is going to keep them from straying again or divorcing in the end.


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

I'm sorry, that is such a copout of an attitude.

You want me to believe that you are justified in having an affair because you attempted to express your needs to a nonresponsive spouse?

What I gather from your comments is that you feel justified, annoyed at having to repair things, and feel as though you have no "extra" responsibility for repairing things in your marriage than the person you wounded by cheating.

Of course a marriage is between two people that share responsibility for nurturing love and protecting it from outside influences.

That said, the person wounding has bigger part in fixing things than they are comfortable with shouldering.

That it annoys you that this is so speaks volumes about your attitude about cheating.


----------



## AZMOMOFTWO (Jun 30, 2008)

Thanks. Doesn't mean I don't have bad moments, I do. I've been able to keep any anger and therefore desire to punish out of this as I've completely transferred it to her. Not the blame, just the anger. Hopefully the girl is smart enough to stay away because I have a whole lot of anger directed all at her. On the other hand, I do expect him to do things to earn my trust and respect back. If he can do that I know we can move to a higher plane and a better marriage. No guarantees but I'd say a lot is riding on what he does. I also agree with what someone else said about the cheating spouse wanting to blame the other for their wrong actions. In the beginning he did try to put blame on me, that I won't accept. He did it and only he is responsible. Luckily he's turned that around and accepts full responsibility or we'd not even start down this path. But to have a better marriage, it takes two. I've looked within a lot and I am seeking how to improve myself and how we can have more fun together, finding ways to connect. I'm a lot prouder and happier with myself today than a few months ago and its gone a long way toward changing things. The "something" he thought was missing he says is no longer missing. I don't know yet if that is due to these changes or facing the end when I had thrown him out. 



MarkTwain said:


> AZMOMOFTWO-
> 
> What a cooooool post! I really liked the bit where you said: "You see I don't want the marriage we had."
> 
> That is the tops.


----------



## AZMOMOFTWO (Jun 30, 2008)

If you brought up the issues, then I commend you for doing so. Doesn't excuse the act but our wife needs to forgive and move on but you too will have to show her you can be trusted and earn that respect and trust back. Not punishment, its just that you have to re-establish these things after they have been broken. I guess in my case, I have a stronger opinion since my husband decided to hide and lie about what was bothering him so he didn't have to deal with it. He actually made me think he was happy and life was great rather than address it (not my words, his own came out in therapy). The bottling up was a seriously wrong move .... if there are issues that are wrong and the other is unwilling to work on anything or meet you half way then it may be time to end the relationship. If you both love each other and are willing to both be committed then it will work. Remember, you don't have to be right. People who are right are usually lonely... 



proflex97 said:


> Ok several responses as to how the WS needs to take more effort because they have less character and should've communicated there needs better. Or they should've just picked up and left (easier said then done). Which seem to be the popular simple responses across the web.
> 
> What if the eventual WS had tried for months or years to get the eventual BS to change to make the marriage better. But the BS choose to NOT address the issues because they where happy with the marriage? The BS only really cared once the A was exposed then they are hurt and they want the WS to atone for every action. But yet again the BS will not address their side of the coin, they feel they don't have to because they were wronged.
> 
> I ask this because I see it over and over, at this site and others. That does not seem like a healthy way to reconcile a marriage. If the WS still sees issues what is going to keep them from straying again or divorcing in the end.


----------



## carmaenforcer (Mar 7, 2008)

MarkTwain said:


> Could you give us an outline of what form these warheads take, and where they're targeted? Also how effective are they?


*MarkTwain* sure, the warheads are the different tools I've coupled together that each show effectiveness in getting my Wife's to pay attention to her actions, their consequences.

Some examples:
I stopped showing that it was affecting/bothering me, even though it usually does, stopped asking for it completely, but still show affection and act nice.
When she want it, I allowed myself the option of saying no and offer no explanation unless asked and then I'm vague at best, giving speculation a wide berth.
When I do give in now, I make sure that it's great for her and so so for me, not hard given that it's true for the most part.
I get it a lot now, even getting head a few times since starting this latest campaign, a thing my Wife swore never to give me again.
A new thing that I happened upon by accident is to not finish after taking care of her, she gets all insecure and needy.
I stopped caring or asking about everything to do with her life outside the home (our family; Me, Wife and Baby), I don't bother her ever, don't call her, nothing. And expecting the same in return, that she really don't like, now she bugs me all the time.
Telling me every mundane detail of her goings on between her work and home, asking for permission to hang out with friends. 
I think so that I do the same, but I won't unless asked and then I'm vague. 
I stopped letting what she wore to work bother me, or rather stopped expressing an opinion, even when asked and she has been dressing appropriate, borderline conservative on her own.

This was a controlled experiment based on how she seems to react to me giving up, at times when I was on the edge and about to leave her, that had pay off. 


Doe's it work?

So far I've had some success, but nothing is 100%. A woman can do you a million times worst than you can ever dream of doing her, if she wanted to. The trick for me has been not giving a ufck or at least pretending not too.
I think that's why women seem to stay forever with a-holes, who knows for sure. I'm just making it up as I go along, to be honest.


----------

