# What I Want... What She Wants...



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

This is my first post on this site, but I have read many posts on the forum and see many similarities. I could use some specific advice on what may help to give both of us what we are looking for.

First, we have been married for 8 years and have two kids. They are 1.5 and 3.5. She is a stay at home mom and I work 5 days a week. I work 5 days a week.

I don't know if we have always had a mismatched libido, I remember having great sex, impromptu sex, but in general we were on the same page. 

When we were trying to have our first, we had frequent sex and some of it was exciting. At least it seemed like we both enjoyed it. At some point we decided to watch an old 70's porn. I don't want to exaggerate what the movie did for us, but it was very memorable sex for both of us and she seemed to become more comfortable with her sexuality. We decide to watch them once a week. We did this for a few weeks and the sex was great! It wasn't just that it brought sex, but also that it was good sex where she was more willing to communicate and reciprocate. Up to that point, we had only had maybe one mutual orgasm. After watching the movies, we had a nearly 100% mutual orgasm rate. 

I don't know if she got embarrassed, or exactly what happened but at some point she implied I was being "weird". One thing I did was asked her if there was a particular movie she wanted to see. We mostly stick to the 70's stuff that seems more tasteful then today's movies. She didn't like the idea of selecting a movie. I don't really understand the change, it seemed to be a fairly reliable "aid".

After she got pregnant with our first, all of that stopped. She claimed to be tired, and understandably having a newborn. So I've read a bunch of books on maintaining the spark, but the authors all seem to have something she doesn't... The desire. 

I've been trying to talk to her about it. In general, she says she's too tired. She gets a lot of sleep though. Many times, I will imply it could be a good time and she will seemingly agree; but then she'll disappear for a couple of hours. Maybe to Facebook or to smoke some cigs. But, when she comes back, she will ask for a raincheck. Worse then that, she won't make good on the raincheck. I'm working on one from about a week ago, but she always puts it off. She used to "pinky swear". She broke it so many times she's banned from the pinky swear game. 

Now, I've almost stopped asking because the answer is always no. When we do have sex, it's awful. She talks about random stuff that doesn't make for good sex. She'll also say things like "get it over with", "you're making me hot(temp not horny)" or she'll talk about our parents. When she agrees, she says, "Only if she can be on the bottom". After agreeing, she will usually say something that immediately turns me off. I'm tempted and do occasionally say never-mind. 

Her excuses for not having sex are just as bad. It'll make her hot, tired, want to smoke a cig. Sometimes she says yes and then disappears. I think I'm waiting for her, and she comes back with a sandwich and asks for a raincheck. 

I asked her when the best time to have sex would be. She said in the middle of the day. Well, the kids are awake and I'm at work. What exactly is that supposed to mean?

So... I've been doing a lot of chores around the house. More then I have before. Mostly dishes, some laundry. I've also been taking her out more frequently. These are two things she wanted as well as a housekeeper which we cannot afford. But, I am seeing a continued slide in our sexual relationship. 

She does have a back problem, although I do to. She has additional stresses in life as well, although I do to. She takes lot of prescriptions, so maybe they affect her libido; but she seems to need them. 

She does think I go to work and sit on my butt all day while she's at home with the kids. I don't bring my stresses home with me and don't take them out on her. So maybe that's why she doesn't think I'm busy at work. We need the income, so I don't know what the alternative is. 

I'm frustrated, I cannot make her less tired. I'm stuck in a deteriorating situation.

I'm at the point where I'm trying to convince myself that at 35, sex isn't important, the best is beyond me, and all of that is outside of my control.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Are you surprised this happens *over and over* with women who are married.

Hence THIS forum.

Let me tell you what we all know...

Women (on average) do not need or desire sex like men. Especially AFTER kids.

She says its "weird" because YOU focus on it
She also cuts you off BECAUSE she can

This will likely NOT improve.

Good Luck

Options:

1. Accept (Get used to no sex)
2. Mitigate (Porn)
3. Avoid (Divorce/180)
4. Outsource (Affair/Prostitutes)
5. Negotiate ( MC/whine/some $ stipulation)


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

lessthennone said:


> This is my first post on this site, but I have read many posts on the forum and see many similarities. I could use some specific advice on what may help to give both of us what we are looking for.
> 
> First, we have been married for 8 years and have two kids. They are 1.5 and 3.5. She is a stay at home mom and I work 5 days a week. I work 5 days a week.


Alot of them shut down the sex after two kids.



lessthennone said:


> I don't know if we have always had a mismatched libido, I remember having great sex, impromptu sex, but in general we were on the same page.
> 
> When we were trying to have our first, we had frequent sex and some of it was exciting. At least it seemed like we both enjoyed it. At some point we decided to watch an old 70's porn. I don't want to exaggerate what the movie did for us, but it was very memorable sex for both of us and she seemed to become more comfortable with her sexuality. We decide to watch them once a week. We did this for a few weeks and the sex was great! It wasn't just that it brought sex, but also that it was good sex where she was more willing to communicate and reciprocate. Up to that point, we had only had maybe one mutual orgasm. After watching the movies, we had a nearly 100% mutual orgasm rate.


Let me guess, she shut you down.



lessthennone said:


> I don't know if she got embarrassed, or exactly what happened but at some point she implied I was being "weird". One thing I did was asked her if there was a particular movie she wanted to see. We mostly stick to the 70's stuff that seems more tasteful then today's movies. She didn't like the idea of selecting a movie. I don't really understand the change, it seemed to be a fairly reliable "aid".


Whatever floats your boat. 70's porn is more sensual than the straight pounding of todays porn. More erotic.



lessthennone said:


> After she got pregnant with our first, all of that stopped. She claimed to be tired, and understandably having a newborn. So I've read a bunch of books on maintaining the spark, but the authors all seem to have something she doesn't... The desire.


Puppy dogging to her will kill any desire.



lessthennone said:


> I've been trying to talk to her about it. In general, she says she's too tired. She gets a lot of sleep though. Many times, I will imply it could be a good time and she will seemingly agree; but then she'll disappear for a couple of hours. Maybe to Facebook or to smoke some cigs. But, when she comes back, she will ask for a raincheck. Worse then that, she won't make good on the raincheck. I'm working on one from about a week ago, but she always puts it off. She used to "pinky swear". She broke it so many times she's banned from the pinky swear game.


Tired is a great excuse. It doesn't take a bunch of energy to spread your legs.



lessthennone said:


> Now, I've almost stopped asking because the answer is always no. When we do have sex, it's awful. She talks about random stuff that doesn't make for good sex. She'll also say things like "get it over with", "you're making me hot(temp not horny)" or she'll talk about our parents. When she agrees, she says, "Only if she can be on the bottom". After agreeing, she will usually say something that immediately turns me off. I'm tempted and do occasionally say never-mind.


We call it rejection. Over time it hurts very badly, sometimes like getting punched in the face.



lessthennone said:


> Her excuses for not having sex are just as bad. It'll make her hot, tired, want to smoke a cig. Sometimes she says yes and then disappears. I think I'm waiting for her, and she comes back with a sandwich and asks for a raincheck.


She knows she doesn't want to "give" it... Her rationalization hamster spits out a logical excuse.



lessthennone said:


> I asked her when the best time to have sex would be. She said in the middle of the day. Well, the kids are awake and I'm at work. What exactly is that supposed to mean?


Come home for a 15 minute quicky?



lessthennone said:


> So... I've been doing a lot of chores around the house. More then I have before. Mostly dishes, some laundry. I've also been taking her out more frequently. These are two things she wanted as well as a housekeeper which we cannot afford. But, I am seeing a continued slide in our sexual relationship.


Gets you seen in a feminine light. We all know its a good thing to do. To share the workload. But in reality it changes the way they see you. Spend more times working in the backyard, fixing pipes and cars.



lessthennone said:


> She does have a back problem, although I do to. She has additional stresses in life as well, although I do to. She takes lot of prescriptions, so maybe they affect her libido; but she seems to need them.


Fix the back problem. Meds won't fix it. Alot of times when I have sprains and things improving my bodily circulation helps. C ardio, and non weighted movements where the back is worked will move blood through the area.



lessthennone said:


> She does think I go to work and sit on my butt all day while she's at home with the kids. I don't bring my stresses home with me and don't take them out on her. So maybe that's why she doesn't think I'm busy at work. We need the income, so I don't know what the alternative is.
> 
> I'm frustrated, I cannot make her less tired. I'm stuck in a deteriorating situation.


you and millions others.


lessthennone said:


> I'm at the point where I'm trying to convince myself that at 35, sex isn't important, the best is beyond me, and all of that is outside of my control.


No your best sex is ahead of you. From 25-35 my sex got better and hotter every single year.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

treyvion said:


> Alot of them shut down the sex after two kids.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You were on a roll until the last item.... His best sex is behind him


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## carguy129 (Jun 16, 2014)

Been here myself. What I am finally figuring out after 15 years of marriage, is that she needs to feel wanted non-sexually first. Little gifts, date nights etc. It is tough when kids are as young as yours but if you can survive this period and do the necessary things, it will get better as kids get older and do not need constant attention. Just not having to change diapers will in itself make her more interested in sex. You need to get out as a couple. Get a babysitter, go on a date. Try to talk while you are on the "date".

Do not be satisfied in a sexless marriage. It is a no win situation. I tried. Nearly killed my marriage. I stopped initiating for a few periods - 5 weeks we went each time. I nearly lost my mind. We still have a long way to go as I would happily doit every day but if we can maintain a few times a week, I'll survive.

My wife has said the "just get it over thing" too. Just work as hard as you can to get her to orgasm so at least she has some incentive for the next time. Try not to be to hurt by the get it over thing. Hopefully that passes as you grow closer together again.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> You were on a roll until the last item.... His best sex is behind him


He can drop the sexless wife and get another.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

No, it's very possible his best sex is ahead of him. It just might not be with his current partner. 

To the OP, have you tried books like "no more mr. Nice guy" or "married mans sex life primer"? I suspect one of the reasons your wife is so complacent about your dissatisfaction in your sex life is simply because she can be. She's not worried about you going anywhere. You need to shake up that dynamic. Not by cheating or even pretending to cheat. But by making her realize that you're a marketable commodity and while you're willing to work with her on fixing things, the current situation is not tolerable. 

My wife did the "sex life shutdown" after our kids. Or should I say, my STBXW. That's fixed my sex life right up. Found a new partner who actually enjoys sex, and she even enjoys sex with me. My STBXW was the mistress of rain checks... I could have wallpapered our house with ones that were never honored. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IPoH (Jul 31, 2012)

You say she's on meds, talk to her doctor about possible effects they can be having on her libido. Is it possible she is depressed? Does she feel she has purpose? She's a sahm but does she actually find that fulfilling? How's her weight after the kids? Being over weight has an effect on libido too, though I would highly advise NOT telling her to "get skinny so we can do it". If weight is a concern try being encouraging by suggesting to do stuff together, like talking the kids for a walk after dinner, all together, go to the park and the kids can play and you can talk with her (connect in the way *most* women connect to people).
Another suggestion would be a very serious talk with her, start out with "I love you and want to be with you, but his needs to change or I will be leaving, how can WE fix it". Don't make it her problem or she will be defensive and say it's your problem. Great suggestion for working on the marriage as a whole would be to check into some books, "the 5 love languages", "his needs, her needs" and "love busters" are some good ones.
Best of luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## long_done (Jun 5, 2014)

Holy cow yet another thread of a poor shmuck with the similar experience to mine.

My sex life disappeared after 2 kids, I've been living like a monk even though I'm "married" to a woman.

I can't tell you how sad it makes me to read this. Thank God I'm filing for divorce and GTFO of this situation. 

Heart breaking all around.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

PBear said:


> No, it's very possible his best sex is ahead of him. It just might not be with his current partner.
> 
> To the OP, have you tried books like "no more mr. Nice guy" or "married mans sex life primer"? I suspect one of the reasons your wife is so complacent about your dissatisfaction in your sex life is simply because she can be. She's not worried about you going anywhere. You need to shake up that dynamic. Not by cheating or even pretending to cheat. But by making her realize that you're a marketable commodity and while you're willing to work with her on fixing things, the current situation is not tolerable.
> 
> ...


"free at last, free at last, thank god we are free at last!"

Hats off to you. How much of a difference has being returned to sex made on your outlook of life?


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

OK. Thanks for the replies. I didn't realize that it was mostly guys here. Not a bad thing, but I was more expecting a barrage of women telling me how to "understand". 

I will look into the books that were suggested. I have purchased and read book that were more for her. But as I said, the author is usually wanting more sex, and trying to find a way to get it. In my case, I need to create the desire. 

She does say she want's me to be more intimate when we're not having sex. That's not a bad thing, because I want her to be more intimate when we are having sex. Sex with a starfish is barely worth the effort.

I am not considering divorce or cheating. I would consider that a personal failure of mine. It' snot something I could take well. Divorce has only come up in arguments as threats, and I'd rather no sex then have my kids with divorced parents. 

She does suffer from depression and has issues with her body. I find her very attractive and tell her that frequently.

I really don't know whether to take her excuses seriously. If she's tired, and I let her sleep longer, it doesn't seem to change things. Same with doing dishes, taking kids to DR, etc... 

I asked her for an example of an intimate act we can do at home while the kids are asleep. She said, "snuggle without it ending in sex". How does ending in sex make it not intimate.:scratchhead:


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

What are your wife's emotional needs, and how is it that you meet them?

What do you do to make her life better? What can you do to put a smile on her face?

You have to start with yourself. Rarely are sexual desires matched. But typically there is something non sexual that she cares about that you don't care about and are not meeting her need in some way....


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## long_done (Jun 5, 2014)

lessthennone said:


> ...
> I am not considering divorce or cheating. I would consider that a personal failure of mine. It' snot something I could take well. Divorce has only come up in arguments as threats, and I'd rather no sex then have my kids with divorced parents. ...:


Divorce is NOT failure. Sometimes things happen, and two different people end up in a relationship that is not the most positive, healthy or productive for each other or the union. Divorce simply means that two parties are doing what's best for themselves.

If Divorce is failure, then Marriage is winning. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Over 50%+ marriages end if divorce...so marriage is definitely not "winning".

You are looking at this so wrong, just like I did for the majority of my marriage.

Look ahead, you'll see me in your future. I've been in a sexless marriage for 12+ years, finally filing for divorce now, doing what's painful but necessary and best for all concerned.

I wish you the best, your personal choice to be in my shoes in the future. Only you can make the choice to piss away the best years of your life for some ideal that does not exist.


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## IPoH (Jul 31, 2012)

I'm a girl, and I won't tell you to "understand" and give up trying to have intimacy with your wife, but I will say that you need to understand that intimacy for a guy is different than for a girl.
There's an old saying that "women gives sex for love and men give love for sex", I've found this generally to be true.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

Nice to see you are sticking around and not thinking about cheating. Depression body issues and having children sounds like are the biggest obsticals you are facing. It sounds like she want you to be more intimate with her that doesn't include sex. Cuddling, kissing and hugging are ways you can be intimate with her. Foreplay for a lot of women starts during the day. I'm sure she is tired, young children do that do you and then at night in bed she probably doesn't want to be touched by anymore hands. It's not right and it shouldn't happen. I would start by being more intimate with her during the day and cuddling together at night.


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## ClimbingTheWalls (Feb 16, 2013)

lessthennone said:


> I asked her for an example of an intimate act we can do at home while the kids are asleep. She said, "snuggle without it ending in sex". How does ending in sex make it not intimate.:scratchhead:


It doesn't make it not intimate, but you don't need to have the sex included to make it intimate.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Hicks said:


> What are your wife's emotional needs, and how is it that you meet them?
> 
> What do you do to make her life better? What can you do to put a smile on her face?
> 
> You have to start with yourself. Rarely are sexual desires matched. But typically there is something non sexual that she cares about that you don't care about and are not meeting her need in some way....


I think that's the crux of the issue. I cannot find a way to put a smile on her face. Everything I say seems to make every situation worse. I'm either being critical, too logical, not sensitive enough, etc... So I have definitely become more quiet. I'm worried I may say the wrong thing. 

I feel compassion, but maybe I am not good at displaying it. Her mother has dementia, and when I console her, all I can do is hold her and say it'll be OK. It's a cop-out because what am I supposed to say? When we get into the issues, she gets mad at me for not understanding how tough it is to have her mothers health deteriorate. I understand. I would be devastated if it was my mother. Her mother's health has also become an excuse, although a legitimate one. 

But, I cannot do anythign about her mothers health. All I can do is suggest she spend more of her time with her. Her mothers health is going to continue deteriorating. In my logical mind, I know it's going to get worse.


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## long_done (Jun 5, 2014)

All I can say is good luck, be prepared to be celibate in the future for a very long time... and you might be tempted to cheat... or your wife will post on here about how you cheated on her and what a jerk you are.

You're trying to be a good guy, to save the marriage despite how bad it seems to be doomed. Being the good guy is not going to win you any medals. I would have purple hearts and the Medal of Honor for being celibate and the nice guy for 8+ years.


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## IPoH (Jul 31, 2012)

A great way to show you are being considerate of her emotional well being (especially concerning her family) would be to hold her and say something along the lines of "this must be so hard on you, would you like to talk about it? Is there something I can do to help?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

lessthennone said:


> OK. Thanks for the replies. I didn't realize that it was mostly guys here. Not a bad thing, but I was more expecting a barrage of women telling me how to "understand".
> 
> I will look into the books that were suggested. I have purchased and read book that were more for her. But as I said, the author is usually wanting more sex, and trying to find a way to get it. In my case, I need to create the desire.
> 
> ...



What you will find here at TAM is lots and lots of guys in YOUR situation. We represent the average male who is married. Guys like to find answers and research and a quick Google will turn up TAM which seems to be filled with similar stories and "good" advice. Take TAM with a grain of salt.

As for the women here...they are NOT typical they are a combination of sex addicts, those complaining about their husbands as sexless happens the other way too. A woman has little difficulty finding sex in the wild. The ones that give advice will tell you the same as men its NO WIN. They will claim women LIKE SEX but they represent only about 5% of the women out there...the reality is women DO NOT like sex after having to do it with the same boring husband and when able find a way to STOP having sex and play the odds you won't divorce or cheat.

Just open your eyes to the world and forge you own path...

THERE is NO quick fix and likely NO FIX....sooner you realize that the better you will be.

Have a nice day.

You can thank... Electronics, womens lib, dual, incomes, TV and movies...basically society for your and our situation... women feel empowered now... don't do want they don't like. They talk. Sad state for men.

Men are simple and a bit naive and obtuse.
Women are complex and emotionally scattered.

Not good long term


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## long_done (Jun 5, 2014)

IPoH said:


> A great way to show you are being considerate of her emotional well being (especially concerning her family) would be to hold her and say something along the lines of "this must be so hard on you, would you like to talk about it? Is there something I can do to help?"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This seems like such simple help... I tried that with my STBXW, she just shooed me away, saying "I'm fine thanks... please leave me alone".


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

ClimbingTheWalls said:


> It doesn't make it not intimate, but you don't need to have the sex included to make it intimate.


I completely agree with that, but if I have an apple and you have an orange and you want an apple and I want an orange. 

Well... I can steal your orange, or we can trade and both be happy. I like to think the trade is the most positive outcome. 

Saying it cannot end in sex is like saying "I'll only be happy with both the apple and the orange". I don't say things like "we should have sex, but no talking or snuggling".


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## IPoH (Jul 31, 2012)

Long, I'm sorry your wife pushed you away. Every person is different, if we weren't then there would be no problems in any relationship (and I think the world would soon become boring)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

lessthennone said:


> I think that's the crux of the issue. I cannot find a way to put a smile on her face. Everything I say seems to make every situation worse. I'm either being critical, too logical, not sensitive enough, etc... So I have definitely become more quiet. I'm worried I may say the wrong thing.


You definitely need to read "Married Man Sex Life Primer" (MMSLP) right away, as you are doing *exactly the wrong things* to get her interested in you sexually. She is testing you for the ability and willingness to stand up for yourself, and you are failing by trying to please her.

"No More Mr. Nice Guy" would also help, but MMSLP is the first book you should read.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

technovelist said:


> You definitely need to read "Married Man Sex Life Primer" (MMSLP) right away, as you are doing *exactly the wrong things* to get her interested in you sexually. She is testing you for the ability and willingness to stand up for yourself, and you are failing by trying to please her.
> 
> "No More Mr. Nice Guy" would also help, but MMSLP is the first book you should read.


Read but don't expect a turn around... these are basically telling you to be more Alpha..that's fine if YOUR wife likes that. These might open your eyes to some better behaviors..that's it they are NOT a cure and don't pay a dime for them.

The problem is HER not you..once you realize that you will be better.

All the few successes come for the WOMAN having a light bulb go off... "sex is good it makes MY life better" but that takes years usually for them to finally come to that conclusion. Its a marathon of when will things change?

Sure you can FORCE her by threats but really is that what you want?

Most guys WANT to be WANTED sexually...that's why this is a tough one to fix since your wife has been there done that.

Probably the best strategy is to get HER to see SHE is the problem... 

That means you remain you and if you want sex go for it... let her denials stack up and don't bat an eye. Keep doing it. She will hopefully re-evaluate her as being the issue. This all has to be HER deciding to do something.

The solution is easy yet hard to implement and maintain an even demeanor and your own sanity.


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## long_done (Jun 5, 2014)

Yup, if the fix was so simple as answers in a book, life would be so easy.

They definitely help, but at the end of the day the cure can be very complex, if not impossible.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Well... The book is downloading. 

I'm a very fast reader, so I hope to at least get some insight by the time I see her tonight.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

long_done said:


> Yup, if the fix was so simple as answers in a book, life would be so easy.
> 
> They definitely help, but at the end of the day the cure can be very complex, if not impossible.


I think the reason these are the go to books is they "sound good" and "make sense"...

Life is different


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

treyvion said:


> "free at last, free at last, thank god we are free at last!"
> 
> Hats off to you. How much of a difference has being returned to sex made on your outlook of life?


It made a HUGE difference! First thing I realized was how low my self-esteem was due to the constant rejection. It's like a rock being eroded by drops of water... It takes a long time, but it gets worn to nothing. 

And frequent and enthusiastic sex with someone who is into it as much as you are is a wonderful thing. Beats being on anti-depressants, that's for sure! . And as an FYI, my SO was in the same situation as me. She was 3 years without sex, and tried absolutely everything to get his interest. But he was perfectly happy to go to the pub and do his crossword puzzle, instead of romp with his wife who was game for anything. At 43 years old...

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

that book should open your eyes.
If you are being critical, STOP. Whatever benefit you get by tellng her how to do something or what to do is completely erased by the lack of sex you are going to get as a result.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Regarding her mother's health.
There is nothing that should come before her marriage.
You don't have to become a woman. Just remind her that she is a great mother and a great daughter. But if her mother's illness is coming before your marriage, then it's important to point out that that is no acceptable.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Hicks said:


> Regarding her mother's health.
> There is nothing that should come before her marriage.
> You don't have to become a woman. Just remind her that she is a great mother and a great daughter. But if her mother's illness is coming before your marriage, then it's important to point out that that is no acceptable.


How do I suggest that without having her break down crying... Telling me I cannot know what it's like... 

All while preventing the need to wait until the next day to have a rational conversation.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

treyvion said:


> Alot of them shut down the sex after two kids.
> this won't work. Thinking of your wife as a" lot of them" will not make her want you more. It gives her permission to say " a lot of men think about sex only. Try to avoid the usual hostile generalization. You situation is unique to you both and the solution will be too.
> 
> Tired is a great excuse. It doesn't take a bunch of energy to spread your legs.
> ...


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

lessthennone said:


> OK. Thanks for the replies. I didn't realize that it was mostly guys here. Not a bad thing, but I was more expecting a barrage of women telling me how to "understand".
> 
> I will look into the books that were suggested. I have purchased and read book that were more for her. But as I said, the author is usually wanting more sex, and trying to find a way to get it. In my case, I need to create the desire.
> 
> ...


"Then the Emperor has already won." - Obiwan Kenobi


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

lessthennone said:


> How do I suggest that without having her break down crying... Telling me I cannot know what it's like...
> 
> All while preventing the need to wait until the next day to have a rational conversation.


You don't suggest it. You say your opinion. 

HEr reaction: YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE.

Answer, you're right. But I do know that I would not want my child to throw away their life if I get sick.

You cannot prevent her from crying. You are not trying to convince her of you are right she is wrong. You are telling her what you belive, and allow her to make up her mind how to act and what to do. And,, you are allowed to let her get mad and cry. b


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> Enjoyment of her sexuality has been stolen from her by religion, the tenants of which you both supported. Women also get no empathy for being damaged by religious beliefs that support male sexuality but not female sexuality.
> 
> You can't work at it by blaming her and asking her to change for you. You need to do most of the work. First of all, stop blaming her, put the blame where it belongs. Second, walk this journey with the woman you chose for a partner.
> 
> ...


We are both Atheists. Any discomfort she has with sex would not be religious based. I have been somewhat surprised by what I see as the masculine entitlement likely aided by those religious expectations you speak of. We don't have issues like that. 

I have also spent the last 3 years looking for behaviors of mine to change, but have gotten no credit for the ones I did change. 

My use of pornography, as an aid, seemed to be initially successful. Even she began discussing sex more openly, even with a sense of pride. But, it's almost as if she forgot how effective it was.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

lessthennone said:


> We are both Atheists. Any discomfort she has with sex would not be religious based. I have been somewhat surprised by what I see as the masculine entitlement likely aided by those religious expectations you speak of. We don't have issues like that.
> 
> I have also spent the last 3 years looking for behaviors of mine to change, but have gotten no credit for the ones I did change.
> 
> My use of pornography, as an aid, seemed to be initially successful. Even she began discussing sex more openly, even with a sense of pride. But, it's almost as if she forgot how effective it was.


Sorry the last part of my post does not apply to you. I'll delete it.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

lessthennone said:


> I am not considering divorce or cheating. I would consider that a personal failure of mine. It' snot something I could take well. Divorce has only come up in arguments as threats, and I'd rather no sex then have my kids with divorced parents.


I can tell you right now that you increase your chances of failing exponentially by taking divorce off the table, even if only in your own mind.

That being said, consider a couple of the following:

1) Some women, when they have kids, go into mother mode. This means it is all about the kids. It also means that it is no longer proper (in their mind) to do certain things that were just fine when they were single. This is part of Catherine's point of working with her to be open in her sexuality.

2) Do you still date her? Get her out and away from the kids? If so, how often? What do you do?

3) How much alone time do you two spend a week? Not just sitting next to each other watching TV, but actually interacting?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

lessthennone said:


> We are both Atheists. Any discomfort she has with sex would not be religious based. I have been somewhat surprised by what I see as the masculine entitlement likely aided by those religious expectations you speak of. We don't have issues like that.


Was she raised in such an environment? Because she would not be the first person to intellectually throw religion away but still have issues emotionally with it.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I can tell you right now that you increase your chances of failing exponentially by taking divorce off the table, even if only in your own mind.
> 
> That being said, consider a couple of the following:
> 
> ...


Those are good questions...

In regards to the first, I'm not quite sure I can answer that. While it's seemingly an off the wall solution, I thought pornography may have been a good method to open her up sexually. I like I said, it seemed to work initially, until it didn't. 

I understand Catherine's point and that was my initial goal with the porn. Perhaps my strategy was wrong. 

Now, if you can give me a good reason why it didn't work, and what may be more effective, I'd be open to any and all suggestions. 

For the second, I have been trying to take her out more frequently. I'd say it's become every other week. But, when we do go out, we tend to argue. She complains that we don't do "this" enough and I say stop complaining if we're doing "this". Last night was our last date night and it didn't go well.

This is going to sound extremely self serving, but she gets very belligerent when her big P comes around. Last night was the night. I don't drink frequently, but I did last night. So when she was argumentative, I gave it back. Normally, I'll just be quiet and wait for it to pass over. Unfortunately, shes been getting it twice a month. That also make sex more difficult to plan. 

Admittedly, we don't spend enough time by ourselves without the kids. Our routine is that after they go to bed, I'm usually on the sofa getting ready for bed myself. She usually smokes cigarettes outside and then comes in for dinner. I usually eat when the kids eat. She says she's not hungry at that point. I did point out that that is out best potential intimate time. This is typically the time that I expect her to fulfill her rain-check and typically the time she asks for another rain-check. :slap:


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## James2020 (Jun 4, 2014)

lessthennone said:


> She usually smokes cigarettes outside and then comes in for dinner.


You mention her going and smoking cigarettes on several occasions. How long does it take to smoke a cigarette? Is she chain smoking a pack or something that she ends up missing dinner and is gone long enough to have a valid reason to suddenly not be into sex anymore and do the "raincheck"? Very confused by that... it really stood out to me in several of your posts.


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## IPoH (Jul 31, 2012)

Is it possible that your attempt to open her sexuality backfire because women are insanely jealous and self critical (a generalization). I mean if I was trying to be intimate with my husband and he was watching the girls on the screen have incredibly fake sex and he was getting off to that instead of my body that was right there I would take that very personally as a major rejection.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Was she raised in such an environment? Because she would not be the first person to intellectually throw religion away but still have issues emotionally with it.


No... 

Her first sexual experience wasn't memorable, and if nothing else, that could be the cause. But she's had many partners since then...

She does say things like she's a good girl and I want a ****. I don't want a ****, I want a better, more fulfilling sexual relationship with my wife.

When we do have sex, occasionally, I'll say something like not too soon" and she'll say "Isn't that the point". So I'm not sure she looks at sex as an extended pleasurable activity. In fact, I think she gets frustrated or impatient and just wants to give up.

Now, she typically only orgasms using her hand. Oral has worked in the past. When we watched the porn, she had frequent vaginal only orgasms. Many times, multiple. For me, it was memorable. I though we had made it over a hurdle.

I don't like it when she doesn't orgasm, but it doesn't seem to bother her. I try every time, and am usually rejected. Maybe she doesn't think it's worth the effort. IDK?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

lessthennone said:


> Those are good questions...
> 
> In regards to the first, I'm not quite sure I can answer that. While it's seemingly an off the wall solution, I thought pornography may have been a good method to open her up sexually. I like I said, it seemed to work initially, until it didn't.
> 
> ...


I would suggest that jumping back to porn may be too far too fast, particularly based on where she is at now. One thing that worked for me was after good sex, I thanked her for trusting me. Not for the sex, but for the trust in letting me see her let go a bit. No jokes, no comments, nothing else said the next morning, beyond a kiss and I love you and thanks for trusting me.



> For the second, I have been trying to take her out more frequently. I'd say it's become every other week. But, when we do go out, we tend to argue. She complains that we don't do "this" enough and I say stop complaining if we're doing "this". Last night was our last date night and it didn't go well.


Have you tried some things that worked when you were married? We do best connecting when we do something fun. Mini-golf, hiking, or a video arcade. Some place where you can laugh and have fun. 

I'd also make her plan a couple. Take care of the sitter and tell her she plans the date.



> This is going to sound extremely self serving, but she gets very belligerent when her big P comes around. Last night was the night. I don't drink frequently, but I did last night. So when she was argumentative, I gave it back. Normally, I'll just be quiet and wait for it to pass over. Unfortunately, shes been getting it twice a month. That also make sex more difficult to plan.


As one with admittedly little experience in this area, it seems like something she needs to talk to her doctor about. Is she?

That being said, you need to not loose your cool. She is testing you and you fail when you give it back.



> Admittedly, we don't spend enough time by ourselves without the kids. Our routine is that after they go to bed, I'm usually on the sofa getting ready for bed myself. She usually smokes cigarettes outside and then comes in for dinner. I usually eat when the kids eat. She says she's not hungry at that point. I did point out that that is out best potential intimate time. This is typically the time that I expect her to fulfill her rain-check and typically the time she asks for another rain-check. :slap:


A common saying around here is that you should spend 15 hours a week directly with your spouse. Set up your routine to get some of that. Do you have to go to bed right away? How about 30 minutes of talking? 

On a related note, what about family dinner 3 times a week? Something to get you two acting like a team as parents.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

James2020 said:


> You mention her going and smoking cigarettes on several occasions. How long does it take to smoke a cigarette? Is she chain smoking a pack or something that she ends up missing dinner and is gone long enough to have a valid reason to suddenly not be into sex anymore and do the "raincheck"? Very confused by that... it really stood out to me in several of your posts.



She does seem to go out and smokes cigarettes. I actually think she lights them and forgets about them, and when it goes out she lights another. That's what I've witnessed, but she takes issue when I imply she smokes more then one or spends a lot of time out there. Her cigarette breaks take about 45m. At the same time, she is Facebooking on her phone; so it's not all about the cigs. 

So then she comes in and makes or eats her dinner. The kids are in bed at 8:30, she comes into the living room at around 10pm. That is the point she becomes too tired. Sometimes I'm asleep at this point, unless I have the rain-check in which case I stay up for the disappointment. 

The rain-check usually comes from the evening prior. Sometimes from the morning. Just depends on when I asked.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Why don't you all eat together?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

IPoH said:


> Is it possible that your attempt to open her sexuality backfire because women are insanely jealous and self critical (a generalization). I mean if I was trying to be intimate with my husband and he was watching the girls on the screen have incredibly fake sex and he was getting off to that instead of my body that was right there I would take that very personally as a major rejection.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes. It's possible. Part of the rational of using 70's porn, is it's slightly more real. Slightly. 

To be honest, when I put the movies on, I stare at her feet. The movies aren't on because I want to watch them. I wait for her to star wiggling her toes. I can tell. Then, we would proceed to have very good sex. It does stimulate her... If I touch her shoulder and she'll moan. Typically, she doesn't make a sound.

The success rate was around 90%.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

PBear said:


> Why don't you all eat together?
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Jumping forward to this question, but it's relevant to the one I skipped. 

A few weeks ago, she suggested just that. Our daughter is finally old enough to sit at our dinner table and our son actually like to sit there. So we get dinner ready, and she'll say she's not hungry. 

She'll usually save her dinner until after the kids go to bed and will eat then.

It wouldn't bother me to suggest we should eat together. Then we would have that 8:30 to 10pm time to ourselves.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Lila said:


> Lessthennone,
> 
> What do you do to show affection to your wife?
> 
> What do you consider "being intimate"?


Recently, very little. Since our kids came along, this problem has crept up and put us in a negative feedback loop. She's holding out sex for affection, I'm holding out affection for sex, and that's made us both resentful in a way that prevents us from breaking the loop. Breaking the loop would go a long way, but it's not as one sided as it seems. 

My plan is to go out to dinner with her more frequently, though it never works out like I'm planning. I do intend to keep trying. 

I'm a guy, so to me intimacy is very closely related to sex, but to ignore that... My definition would be the mutual sharing of an experience or conversation exclusive to the people involved. 

But, foreplay is how I show intimacy. I was chatting with my wife and she said "fore-play doesn't require sex." So in that sense, maybe we're on the same page. Personally, I'd say foreplay requires sex, but intimacy doesn't. But, she's just as likely to reject my foreplay as she is an outright request for sex.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

lessthennone said:


> Jumping forward to this question, but it's relevant to the one I skipped.
> 
> A few weeks ago, she suggested just that. Our daughter is finally old enough to sit at our dinner table and our son actually like to sit there. So we get dinner ready, and she'll say she's not hungry.
> 
> ...


So what does she do instead of eating with you all? Is she actively involved with the family?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

PBear said:


> So what does she do instead of eating with you all? Is she actively involved with the family?
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She typically comes in and out of the room. She may be picking up the kids toys or doing chores. Sometimes she's outside. She gets stressed/overwhelmed easily, though. 

I actually think she looks at it as a bit of free time away from the kids. She does seem overly stressed by the kids. She uses them as a reason for her tiredness. I do wake up with the kids in the morning, though.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Suppose you take her at her word that she is tired. You may not react the same way to stress, caring for kids or even tiredness. But assume she does. To cast doubt on every thing she feels because it gets in the way of what you want will not work to your advantage. 

No one likes to have their partner dismiss their feelings just because they don't feel the same way. If fact, that is something that you know all too well, right. Isn't that your wife's attitude towards sex? 

You want her to be empathetic and understand you, even though she does not feel the same way. Can you do that? If you can't then you can understand her struggle, no? It's not an excuse, it is a problem to overcome. Acknowledge that it exist. She, in turn, must acknowledge that you both have a sexual problem in the relationship. 

Right now you are both in your respective corners of the ring. You both have legitimate grievances. When you meet in the middle you duke it out. How do you step out of the ring and form a partnership borne of love, understanding and mutual caring. 

You have a better chance of doing that if you step out of the ring. She will have no one to fight with. Don't back down but refuse to have conflict driven by her.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Lila said:


> One of you is going to have to make concessions to break the loop. Ask yourself how badly do you want a better sex life with your wife? If the answer is greatly, then you're going to have to give up your resentment towards her withholding sex. I mean, it can't get any worse for you, right? Why not give unconditional affection a try? Give her the affection she desires without expectations for sex in return.
> 
> Here are some ideas just off the top of my head:
> 
> ...



All good suggestions. I will try them all, hopefully before she convinces me not to. 

I am thinking about the dinner thing. I may just ask her to have dinner with us. It was her idea. I need to eat at that time for my own sake. But, I think the fact that she eats right before sleeping is bad for both her health and our alone time. This is typically her first meal of the day right before bed. Then she says she's tired or drained. I would be the same way if I didn't eat all day. 

In regards to the DR, I think she spoke to them a short time ago. They suggested she go off her BC and switch to another method. She was reluctant, because she didn't like the alternative methods; I thought it sounded a bit exciting. I am not a DR and I don't really understand that stuff.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> Suppose you take her at her word that she is tired. You may not react the same way to stress, caring for kids or even tiredness. But assume she does. To cast doubt on every thing she feels because it gets in the way of what you want will not work to your advantage.
> 
> No one likes to have their partner dismiss their feelings just because they don't feel the same way. If fact, that is something that you know all too well, right. Isn't that your wife's attitude towards sex?
> 
> ...


I have never been a man of many words. But, at the same time, I'm not sure there are any words that will help her at certain points. 

I don't disagree that it takes two to tango, but I'm not quite willing to take the "I'm tired" at face value. 

As an example, until a few weeks ago, I woke up early with the kids on my days off. Our oldest gets up at around 6am. So when he gets up, I bring him downstairs and begin my day. My wife will typically sleep until about 11:30am. 

So she came downstairs and I was feeding the kids lunch. She began berating me about how dirty the house was. She was mostly complaining about the kids toys. Which usually come out in the morning and go away in the evening. But, this time she was overwhelmed and at the same time belligerent. Did I mention she's not a morning person? It takes her time to wake up before she's palatable. So she started giving it to me, and I said "why don't you start waking up with the kids on my dayoff." She said "Mon and Tues are her only days to sleep late." 

So I told her she was getting up with the kids the next day, which she has. The only problem now is that she gets up with the kids and then goes downstairs and falls asleep on the sofa. I come down a half hour later and take care of the kids and she sleeps till 11. 

How could someone get so much sleep and wake up tired?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I have to echo Lila on the twice a month menses. It's a sign of a problem. 2nd, going all day without eating, starves the brain and body. No wonder she has no energy. 

Eating before sleeping and smoking or two more unhealthy habits. I doubt if she will change just because you say something. Is there someone else who can talk to her that she might listen to. 

I'm not saying that you should not voice you concerns but don't expect a change in behavior. Your concerns should be on record. What's the health status of her mother, father and siblings.


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## IPoH (Jul 31, 2012)

I'd say all the sleep, lack of eating and general apathy screams depression, she may need professional help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

You are letting her disrespect you. Why? Do you think that letting her yell and disrespect you will get you sex? 

I don't think you should go on the dates. You problems are not centered on not spending time with each other. Every she takes every opportunity to run you down. Dates are not times to connect its times you are paying to be beaten up, figuratively. 

Stop everything and really look at what you have here. How the hell did you get into the position of the wiping boy. Give up all ideas of sex temporarily. Tell her exactly what you want in terms of respect. If she is driven away, then deal with that. This will not come easily. She will not change suddenly. 

Get the other aspects of the relationship cleared up. First of all she is not to berate you. When you do something nice she needs to acknowledge it. No more dates until she acts like a person you want to date. Sit down and write down what you want to say and what you want to see in the relationship. Give her a timeline when you'll talk about where you are. 

Don't say D and don't mention sex. But you cannot take D off the table. Right now she has you by the balls because she thinks you will do anything for sex. I hope you don't feel that way. 

Sex is plentiful. Sex with respect and love is less so. If you D, you can subsist on raw sex for a time until you find the right woman for you. Just be honest and don't hurt anyone. Put your children first.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wow, that was a tough post, Catherine. I am bigger on the soft approaches, like active listening, and just generally seeking to understand. But yours certainly packs a punch.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

jld said:


> Wow, that was a tough post, Catherine. I am bigger on the soft approaches, like active listening, and just generally seeking to understand. But yours certainly packs a punch.


Sorry. I think your posts are very sweet but they have a solid backing. On the other hand, I give the solid with no padding.

If you met me, you would never guess that I am an iron lady. I am more like you. In addition, IRL I lack the self confidence it takes to be resolute and self assured. With strangers and time to write, I can.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

jld said:


> Wow, that was a tough post, Catherine. I am bigger on the soft approaches, like active listening, and just generally seeking to understand. But yours certainly packs a punch.



I believe actions speak louder than words as do many... Catherine is on the right track. But it should be all action not any discussion or statements of what you want.

Again she needs to see she is the issue...that is the single most important item. SHE is the issue.

Does not hurt to set an internal deadline as long as you are willing to D her after trying to get her to see the light.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Allowing her to "feed" you when she feeds the kids is ridiculous, OP. It's incredibly emasculating and relegates you to toddler status at the kiddie table. All the while she's out "smoking" (for 45 minutes?) and chatting it up on Facebook. Put your foot down!

And who is she chatting with?

Are you certain she is not having an affair?

And why in the HECK is she sleeping until 11:30 am while you are tending to the kids?! I've never heard of anything like this unless she has shift work at a job.

OP, you are an enabler. Sorry to be so blunt. Get her a$$ out of bed in the morning!!

Something is off here...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

She needs to get up at a normal time, eat through out the day, stop smoking and eat dinner with the family. She isn't being a very good role model for you children. Dinner time is an important time for the family to talk about their day. She is sleeping a lot, I wonder if she is depressed? Why doesn't she eat, is she trying to loose weight? No wonder she is tired, she isn't getting any fuel into her body. There is not way my husband would put up with this behavior and I wouldn't put up with him is he was doing what your wife is. It sounds like you two aren't spending a lot of time together, she is either sleeping or out smoking.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> Sorry. I think your posts are very sweet but they have a solid backing. On the other hand, I give the solid with no padding.
> 
> If you met me, you would never guess that I am an iron lady. I am more like you. In addition, IRL I lack the self confidence it takes to be resolute and self assured. With strangers and time to write, I can.


Nothing to be sorry about! Your posts are helpful, and very clear. 

I can tell you care about the people you write to, and really stick with them until they resolve their problems. And you post what you think, without worrying about what anyone else might say. That definitely shows self-confidence. 

I'm nice, but I have my own limits. I am a caring mom, but I spank my kids when they have it coming!


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Let's throw a bunch of cliches at this and see what sticks.

Women give sex to get love. Men give love to get sex. She doesn't feel the love right now, ergo, no sexual desire.

Men like porn (which objectifies women) and women like erotica (which idealizes men). Both are unrealistic. If she feels you are treating her like porn, when she wants erotica, no desire.

Women are hormonal. 2 periods a month? Something is medically wrong there, and may be affecting desire.

Men like sex to relieve stress. Women prefer sex when they are stress-free. How can you reduce stress in her life so she can be relaxed enough to feel desire? If she's feeling stress from her mother's illness, there may not be much you can do.

Men give affection in anticipation of sex. Women enjoy affection that doesn't lead to sex. She may feel that you aren't really demonstrating affection, but are only doing it in the hopes of sex. If she's got some self-esteem problems due to her post-baby appearance, then she'll feel unattractive, and hence, if you show affection, she'll assume it's not for her benefit, but only to get into her pants for your benefit. In other words, she knows that you want sex but because she doesn't see herself as desirable, you must therefore just see her as the most convenient woman to obtain sex from, and not out of any intrinsic value she has for you. The more affection you show without sex being the elephant in the room, the more you can reassure her.

I think this is a common difference in the thinking between HD and LD people, especially when the HD person communicates that they are considering divorce over it. The LD person gets the message "my partner does not love me but only values me for my genitalia," without realizing that the message the HD partner has been getting all along is "my partner must not love me because they do not demonstrate this by meeting my sexual needs." It's especially strong when the difference in libido developed later in the marriage, or for medical reasons. The LD person thinks all they are saying is "I'm not being mean and denying you sex, it's just that the relationship changed with time and circumstance." but when the HD person complains, the LD person hears "I never truly loved you, just your availability for sex, and now that it's gone, you are of no value to me."


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

lessthennone said:


> I asked her when the best time to have sex would be. She said in the middle of the day. Well, the kids are awake and I'm at work. What exactly is that supposed to mean?


Yikes. I didn't really want to be the guy that said this, but how do you know that she isn't already having sex in the middle of the day... while you're at work?

Hell, maybe I just spend so much time on CWI that I see infidelity everywhere. I honestly hope that's the case. Even still... eating apart from the family? Not a good sign to me.

Does she keep her phone from you or make attempts to shield the screen from your view? Does she have a passcode on it that you're not aware of? What about a tablet or computer?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Men give affection in anticipation of sex. Women enjoy affection that doesn't lead to sex. She may feel that you aren't really demonstrating affection, but are only doing it in the hopes of sex. If she's got some self-esteem problems due to her post-baby appearance, then she'll feel unattractive, and hence, if you show affection, she'll assume it's not for her benefit, but only to get into her pants for your benefit. In other words, she knows that you want sex but because she doesn't see herself as desirable, you must therefore just see her as the most convenient woman to obtain sex from, and not out of any intrinsic value she has for you. The more affection you show without sex being the elephant in the room, the more you can reassure her.
> 
> I think this is a common difference in the thinking between HD and LD people, especially when the HD person communicates that they are considering divorce over it. The LD person gets the message "my partner does not love me but only values me for my genitalia," without realizing that the message the HD partner has been getting all along is "my partner must not love me because they do not demonstrate this by meeting my sexual needs." It's especially strong when the difference in libido developed later in the marriage, or for medical reasons. The LD person is hearing "I never truly loved you, just your availability for sex, and now that it's gone, you are of no value to me," when they think they are saying "I'm not being mean and denying you sex, it's just that the relationship changed with time and circumstance."


This may well be true here. Part of it can be bypassed by insisting that she address the non-sex issues. Not eating with the family, the lack of respect, apparently disengaging the moment he walks in the door, her not taking care of herself physically. She has unilaterally changed the marriage to her benefit and that is a fair point to raise.

I would require that she go to a doctor to address her health. Depression may be at issue and should be ruled out. I think I would also take a quick look at her Facebook account to see who she is talking to. I don't *think* she is doing anything she should not (apart from spending too much time on it) but best to rule it out.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

I think that infidelity is possible and hormonal issues are likely.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> What you will find here at TAM is lots and lots of guys in YOUR situation. We represent the average male who is married. Guys like to find answers and research and a quick Google will turn up TAM which seems to be filled with similar stories and "good" advice. Take TAM with a grain of salt.
> 
> As for the women here...they are NOT typical they are a combination of sex addicts, those complaining about their husbands as sexless happens the other way too. A woman has little difficulty finding sex in the wild. The ones that give advice will tell you the same as men its NO WIN. They will claim women LIKE SEX but they represent only about 5% of the women out there...the reality is women DO NOT like sex after having to do it with the same boring husband and when able find a way to STOP having sex and play the odds you won't divorce or cheat.
> 
> ...


Damn, you're a real cynical fvck aren't you?

Your life experiences do not translate to the typical, average situation. 

OP, there is zero reason to lose out hope. I'd think of this as a temporary bump in the road. The sex life can get a lot better if you and the wife communicate openly and honestly. It's quite possible has PPD that needs to be dealt with or her hormones are out of whack due to breast feeding. 

Bear in mind, I only read up to this last comment, so sorry if you already heard this.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

She's not cheating... One of the interesting dynamics that has occurred in our relationship is that she thinks I'm oblivious. She doesn't think I overhear her conversations, but I do. I have also checked her phone and FB. 

She is on medication for depression, but maybe it's not as effective as it was? 

Last night, I mentioned dinner and eating together. I suggested she sit with us rather then going out to the porch. She doesn't realize how much time she spends out there. She also says it's her first chance to get away form the kids, but I frequently come home and she's on the porch while the kids are outside. So she was defensive. She said "So you're going to hold smoking against me?" I explained that I was not forbidding her from smoking, but I was asking her to eat dinner together, like she suggested. 

I also told her that I thought her eating habits were responsible for her lack of energy. She pointed out others who don't eat until 10pm. I asked if they were complaining about being tired all the time, and she said she didn't know. 

Now, I know I'm not the best communicator, but she gets very defensive when I suggest things that may be wrong. She thinks I'm personally attacking her. 

Recently, I saw her give a hard candy to our 3 year old in the car. I said I didn't think it was a good idea. Well, she gave it to me. "Don't you think I know what's best for our kids?" She went on to imply that since she's the mom, her judgement is better then mine. 

Now, here's the issue... And if it wasn't for this, I'd be right with Catherine...

I'm human, I'm not always right. Sometimes I get mad or frustrated. Sometimes impatient. So maybe sometimes I have a tone with her that she takes to mean that I'm criticizing her. I don't do this intentionally, in fact, I'm very careful with my words. 

But, how do I correct a behavior that I know is wrong, without her thinking I'm attacking her? Yesterday, she was so busy defending her smoking, that she didn't realize I wasn't saying quit smoking. I was saying have dinner with us. If you have time for a cig, you have time for dinner. 

I also suggested juggling our schedule with the kids. Before I even got to saying why, which was so we could have a longer date night; she was suggesting it doesn't matter because I still work until 5:30. I currently work till 8pm on our typical date night, but that prevents us from really doing anything. So switching the kids sleepover day would free up 3 hours. She didn't like that idea, but her reasoning wasn't quite coherent. She may change her mind.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Less - your new post makes me more convinced than ever that you need to work hard on the dynamics of your relationship. The disrespect is horrible. How long do you think you can live like this? What I suggest is that when she says things that are unreasonable, don't explain. By explaining you are confirming that she is being reasonable. Don't answer act calm go ahead with what you are doing. Don't act angry just be cool and nice to her. 

She is accustomed to getting a rise out of you when she is says those mean things. Let her work off her stress some other way. Don't feed the tigress. Let it starve and die. Say what you are saying now and don't respond when she comes back with disrespect. When she communicates with respect than engage her. 

Tell her "that's unreasonable or disrespectful" ask her "do I speak to you that way? Or do you want us to speak that way to each other, I can do that if you continue". She will probable get worse before she gets better. As I said, take sex off of the table temporarily. If she realizes that you have balls she may take note. At any rate, it will be no worse than it is now. You'll have to decide what you want to do and a timeline to give this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

jld said:


> Nothing to be sorry about! Your posts are helpful, and very clear.
> 
> I can tell you care about the people you write to, and really stick with them until they resolve their problems. And you post what you think, without worrying about what anyone else might say. That definitely shows self-confidence.
> 
> I'm nice, but I have my own limits. I am a caring mom, but I spank my kids when they have it coming!


Thank you. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Less - your new post makes me more convinced than ever that you need to work hard on the dynamics of your relationship. The disrespect is horrible. How long do you think you can live like this? What I suggest is that when she says things that are unreasonable, don't explain. By explaining you are confirming that she is being reasonable. Don't answer act calm go ahead with what you are doing. Don't act angry just be cool and nice to her.
> 
> She is accustomed to getting a rise out of you when she is says those mean things. Let her work off her stress some other way. Don't feed the tigress. Let it starve and die. Say what you are saying now and don't respond when she comes back with disrespect. When she communicates with respect than engage her.
> 
> ...


I agree that you need to stop talking. It is not working. She gets defensive and stops listening. So make your points short and listen to her. If she gets disrespectful, stop the conversation.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

lessthennone said:


> Last night, I mentioned dinner and eating together. I suggested she sit with us rather then going out to the porch. She doesn't realize how much time she spends out there. She also says it's her first chance to get away form the kids, but I frequently come home and she's on the porch while the kids are outside. So she was defensive. She said "So you're going to hold smoking against me?" I explained that I was not forbidding her from smoking, but I was asking her to eat dinner together, like she suggested.
> 
> I also told her that I thought her eating habits were responsible for her lack of energy. She pointed out others who don't eat until 10pm. I asked if they were complaining about being tired all the time, and she said she didn't know.
> 
> ...


I think you have this part correct. She sees your comments as attacking her. Any suggested change means she is not good enough.

So you need to be honest about whether there is any truth in this. 



> Now, here's the issue... And if it wasn't for this, I'd be right with Catherine...
> 
> I'm human, I'm not always right. Sometimes I get mad or frustrated. Sometimes impatient. So maybe sometimes I have a tone with her that she takes to mean that I'm criticizing her. I don't do this intentionally, in fact, I'm very careful with my words.
> 
> But, how do I correct a behavior that I know is wrong, without her thinking I'm attacking her? Yesterday, she was so busy defending her smoking, that she didn't realize I wasn't saying quit smoking. I was saying have dinner with us. If you have time for a cig, you have time for dinner.


You don't. You can't control her. All you can do is ask her to join you, set boundaries and then hold to them. Ask her to join the family for dinner. When she blows up abut smoking, tilt you head and ask what that has to do with the family sitting down together to break bread. Then tell her you will see her later and take the kids out for something fun. 

I think one issue is that you are chasing too hard. You are working and working and working to convince her about all the things she should be doing. Pull back, go have some fun, and let her come to you.

I think you also should look into doing something for yourself sometimes. Do you get out with friends ever? Once a month for drinks or to play ball or see a movie? You need to take care of your happiness as well.



> I also suggested juggling our schedule with the kids. Before I even got to saying why, which was so we could have a longer date night; she was suggesting it doesn't matter because I still work until 5:30. I currently work till 8pm on our typical date night, but that prevents us from really doing anything. So switching the kids sleepover day would free up 3 hours. She didn't like that idea, but her reasoning wasn't quite coherent. She may change her mind.


I don't understand your schedule. Why are you working until 8 pm on date nights, when you get home at 5:30 on regular nights. What is your daily schedule?


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Tall, 

I don't go out by myself. Not that I want to, but she gets mad. I have one weekly commitment/hobby that usually occurs after she's in bed. I planned it that way, and began it last week. She has held it against me, but it's my stress reliever.

In regards to my work schedule, the kids are usually watched on Thursday. This is the way it's been for a while. I've always worked until 8pm on Thursday. That's my late night. I'm off at 5:30 every other night. I thought that if we switched the night the kids were watched to one where I'm out at 5:30; we'd have more time together. 

I think she looks at those few hours as her time. Originally, we arranged this so she had some time to relax. The date night thing is new.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

It looks more and more like the lack of sex is a result of the resentments and frustrations in your relationship. If those were resolved, the sex would likely come back. 

So what are you willing to do to start healing the issues? What is SHE willing to do?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

lessthennone said:


> Tall,
> 
> I don't go out by myself. Not that I want to, but she gets mad. I have one weekly commitment/hobby that usually occurs after she's in bed. I planned it that way, and began it last week. She has held it against me, but it's my stress reliever.


I think you need to set this as a boundary. As long as you are putting in your half of the effort, you deserve some time to yourself. So take it, even if she gets mad. 



> In regards to my work schedule, the kids are usually watched on Thursday. This is the way it's been for a while. I've always worked until 8pm on Thursday. That's my late night. I'm off at 5:30 every other night. I thought that if we switched the night the kids were watched to one where I'm out at 5:30; we'd have more time together.
> 
> I think she looks at those few hours as her time. Originally, we arranged this so she had some time to relax. The date night thing is new.


That helps a little, but can you expand on the schedule once you get home? When you walk in the door, what happens? Who does what? When do the kids go to bed, when does she go to bed and when do you go to bed? Who does what during those times, including put the kids to bed? How long is that process?


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I think you need to set this as a boundary. As long as you are putting in your half of the effort, you deserve some time to yourself. So take it, even if she gets mad.
> 
> 
> 
> That helps a little, but can you expand on the schedule once you get home? When you walk in the door, what happens? Who does what? When do the kids go to bed, when does she go to bed and when do you go to bed? Who does what during those times, including put the kids to bed? How long is that process?


I am taking this weekly commitment as my recreational activity. I'm not really a big go out to the bar guy. 

When I get home, I take about 10m to relax and get out of work mode. From that point on, we pretty much split the time with the kids. They go to bed at 8:30pm and we pretty much split who takes them up. My son, though, frequently asks for mommy to take him up. She gets mad about this thinking I'm not doing my fair share, but he's asking if she'll take him up. Sometime I just wish he'd ask me to take him up.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

lessthennone said:


> I am taking this weekly commitment as my recreational activity. I'm not really a big go out to the bar guy.


Then go out with a friend and do something else. My concern is that the current dynamic has you being the child. She tells you when you can go out and you have to stay home until you have permission. It may not be what you intended, but coupled with the other issues, I think it is part of that problem.

Part of fixing it is being an independent human being 



> When I get home, I take about 10m to relax and get out of work mode. From that point on, we pretty much split the time with the kids. They go to bed at 8:30pm and we pretty much split who takes them up. My son, though, frequently asks for mommy to take him up. She gets mad about this thinking I'm not doing my fair share, but he's asking if she'll take him up. Sometime I just wish he'd ask me to take him up.


What about dinner? Who makes it? When do you have it with the kids? What happens after the kids go to bed? When do you two go to bed? Together or separately? 

I am trying to get a sense of what your evenings are like with and without your kids.

As far as bed time, I would alternate. Get the kids used to either of you taking them to bed.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Then go out with a friend and do something else. My concern is that the current dynamic has you being the child. She tells you when you can go out and you have to stay home until you have permission. It may not be what you intended, but coupled with the other issues, I think it is part of that problem.
> 
> Part of fixing it is being an independent human being
> 
> ...


Dinner, sometimes she makes it, sometimes I make it, sometimes we order takeout. I'd say it's split between them. We usually eat at 6:30 to 7:00. 

I am usually falling asleep on the sofa at around 9pm. I go up to bed by 11pm. She's usually doing her own thing, but tends to go to bed around the same time.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

lessthennone said:


> Dinner, sometimes she makes it, sometimes I make it, sometimes we order takeout. I'd say it's split between them. We usually eat at 6:30 to 7:00.
> 
> I am usually falling asleep on the sofa at around 9pm. I go up to bed by 11pm. She's usually doing her own thing, but tends to go to bed around the same time.


So when is this hobby time occurring? After the kids go to bed?

Why don't you do anything together? A game, a puzzle, fold the laundry while discussing stuff?


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Tall Average Guy said:


> So when is this hobby time occurring? After the kids go to bed?
> 
> Why don't you do anything together? A game, a puzzle, fold the laundry while discussing stuff?


Hobby is after the kids go to bed on Sunday. It's pretty much an online class and I scheduled it to be at the most convenient time for all of us. It does take some "homework" so to speak, so I may have a few hours of prep work for the meeting, but I do that when everyone is asleep. Even if I have to wake up early or stay up late. 

I like the sound of folding the laundry together. Don't have many games were both interested in. Puzzles, not sure. Will have to think about it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I am a SAHM, OP, and while I don't smoke, I can relate to your wife's feelings in some ways.

We have 5 children, and when the older kids were small, I felt exhausted and bored and stressed most of the time.

My husband really wanted me to be a SAHM, and was very supportive. He did not make demands on me. He just tried to be helpful.

He would often eat dinner with the kids, while I ate later on the couch by myself, or even in our room. Anything to get away from the kids. I loved them, but I was too isolated, and any break from the kids was appreciated.

I know he did not like my eating dinner apart, but he never made a big deal out of it. He was just respectful, and not demanding. Mostly refrained from telling me what to do. No one is perfect, and I am sure there were times he tried to. He learned. 

I don't think dh has ever used the word "disrespectful" with me, though I certainly have been. He never demanded an apology, or did the kind of boundary setting TAG talks about. 

I always apologized, though. I knew how good he was to me, how kind and caring, and I did appreciate it, just not right in the moment. When I would calm down from being upset, the apology would follow.

We have never been sexless. Dh's caring and non-demanding, non-controlling nature guaranteed that. 

You earn the marriage you have, OP. You need to inspire her. I think a good way to do that would be to first listen to her and meet her needs. 

You start by serving her.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Does your wife have a way to relax or a hobby? Staying with young kids all day long is really stressful. 
My wife stays home and I feel I have the better deal with having a job. You should give your wife a break and be less demanding.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> What you will find here at TAM is lots and lots of guys in YOUR situation. We represent the average male who is married. Guys like to find answers and research and a quick Google will turn up TAM which seems to be filled with similar stories and "good" advice. Take TAM with a grain of salt.
> 
> *As for the women here...they are NOT typical they are a combination of sex addicts, those complaining about their husbands as sexless happens the other way too. * A woman has little difficulty finding sex in the wild. The ones that give advice will tell you the same as men its NO WIN. *They will claim women LIKE SEX but they represent only about 5% of the women out there..*.the reality is women DO NOT like sex after having to do it with the same boring husband and when able find a way to STOP having sex and play the odds you won't divorce or cheat.
> 
> ...


Beautifully said by someone that has NFI. Now you think that women that enjoy sex are sex addicts, yopu know so little about women that it is no wonder your dysfunctional marriage has warped your brain.

Women do like sex, the key for many is that they have to like the man they are having sex with.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Holland said:


> Women do like sex, the key for many is that they have to like the man they are having sex with.


:iagree:


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## extremneed (May 26, 2014)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Are you surprised this happens *over and over* with women who are married.
> 
> Hence THIS forum.
> 
> ...


In my instance, I rally was the instigator of the no sex policy, My husband wanted it, he even begged for it, but I had made a promise to his father and others in the area that control would be maintained, for the good of everyone. After 31 years I am realizing how much I had been used, my husband tried to tell me what, It meant to be able to control his own life because everyone out there was looking to keep their own wants intact and when a man is forced to give up rights, it brings all rights into question, I forced my husband to not take the shifts, jobs, the overtime, the weekends and the holidays. I was always told that was to let him be the better man even though he was forced. After a few years and some horrible fights with his father It became a habit to tell him he was going to work these hours, and holidays, because that is what a man is supposed to do, We would say just look at the glass half full, and think we were dfoing such a nice thing when we went out after the holiday dinner and stopped for three or four minutes to wish him a nice holiday and give him a pair of sandwiches, I finally read the computer entry's for the last 32 years, I did not realize how poisonous the thoughts could be about being the man that had to work, Then we got so complacent about the way we did things we called them traditions and told him when he did not have to be someplace else that our traditions did not include him in his own home, I thought he was being purely rude, on memorial day until a treatment meeting that his councilor called where the whole family was given an hour to air their problems, she cleared the whole day. She asked my father in law to start. And he started on how his son was such a willful jerk he did not want to give an inch. He explained his belief that in society their had to be people that by position. wealth or birth had to be considered as people of privilidge and power and it was not right for his son to think he was supposed to be allowed the same rights and privlidges that others had, that is why we have a classed society, I think every mouth in the place even in the hallway dropped open when his mother was asked her opinion she said she thinks and anvil should be dropped on her husbands head. She said I admit that I stayed out of my husbands way when dealing with his son but she had not known how things had developed, How my husband was weddled cajoled and screamed at to work holidays, some of those fights even bought the sheriff out they got so loud and the sherriff would beg my husband to please keep the peace and ciomply, He did not need a knock down fight on his hands he had enough drunks doing that, So my husband would. Then in 2002 it turned into outright threat with a firearm his father escorted him into work with a shotgun at his back saying you are niot going to force the father of three kids to miss Christmas. I found ou that two were with his first wife in Florida, and the other one was at his second wifes home in ohio and he was with his new girl friend. My husband had told me this but I was instructed not to believe it. It was just my husband wanting to disrupt the holidays. 
Then all I could say was that on Memorial day my husbands mere being there disrupted every thing. It was his first holiday at home in 32 years, Things did not go well, his father said at that point you are telling me, He said my jerk of a son invited himself to the cookout the had the audacity to make a good friend of mine just about run for his life, my son should realize he was the RNC chairman up in the town we came from a powerful person and my son to take his wife to the club instead of my friend tells him he is going to need a ride to the ER to get his arm removed from his rear if he did not scram. I did think that could have been handled better by my husband but we were on our way out and my husband was throwing a monkey wrench in, Then when his father tried to point out how it felt to be treated that way blows were exchanged My father in law got the worst. 
Then it was my husbands turn He pointed out the litany of how we as a unit, denied his civil rights, How uch he resented the way we did it and how many years of life he was owed, He said when you take a mans rights away you should not expect him to tell you, you did him a favor. It comes down to the fact we stole his life, just like slavers did, and now we live in a time where we have a group that thinks its a good and proper thing to deny rights, He said it started out small and he recognized he was but a small statistic, He knows how his father feels about society. But when you start thinking that one mans rights are not as important as another's because of power and privilege then its a blue print and permission to do so to others. Personally I could care less about you political friends they put their cloths on the same way. but to keep me as a slave for them and their families was wrong, And I intend to one day see them kiss my rosy red rear. As far as the party being held at my house on the fourth I know you plan to have some friends extract me from my home and leave me a ways away. I even know the little tale you will tell the police when I go to them about how it was just a joke we were going to just leave him for a little while then take him back and when the booze started I was forgotten I was 30 miles away with my walker. My father in law said well we have to do something to get you gone, I am glad you said that on the record. Because now I wont have to kill anyone. After you do this I wiil just put up token resistance then lets see how you and your friends like prison for a 40 year term. He said even now I could charge conspiracy to abduct. My father in law said there will not be a ransom asked for so its not abduction. My husband produced the state code, It states that the only requite for abduction is the removal of a person or persons from a place they have a right to be, be it private or public area by force. The minimum prison term is 40 years. I think that was the reason for this meeting. My husband just put everyone on notice.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

extremneed said:


> In my instance, I rally was the instigator of the no sex policy, My husband wanted it, he even begged for it, but I had made a promise to his father and others in the area that control would be maintained, for the good of everyone. After 31 years I am realizing how much I had been used, my husband tried to tell me what, It meant to be able to control his own life because everyone out there was looking to keep their own wants intact and when a man is forced to give up rights, it brings all rights into question, I forced my husband to not take the shifts, jobs, the overtime, the weekends and the holidays. I was always told that was to let him be the better man even though he was forced. After a few years and some horrible fights with his father It became a habit to tell him he was going to work these hours, and holidays, because that is what a man is supposed to do, We would say just look at the glass half full, and think we were dfoing such a nice thing when we went out after the holiday dinner and stopped for three or four minutes to wish him a nice holiday and give him a pair of sandwiches, I finally read the computer entry's for the last 32 years, I did not realize how poisonous the thoughts could be about being the man that had to work, Then we got so complacent about the way we did things we called them traditions and told him when he did not have to be someplace else that our traditions did not include him in his own home, I thought he was being purely rude, on memorial day until a treatment meeting that his councilor called where the whole family was given an hour to air their problems, she cleared the whole day. She asked my father in law to start. And he started on how his son was such a willful jerk he did not want to give an inch. He explained his belief that in society their had to be people that by position. wealth or birth had to be considered as people of privilidge and power and it was not right for his son to think he was supposed to be allowed the same rights and privlidges that others had, that is why we have a classed society, I think every mouth in the place even in the hallway dropped open when his mother was asked her opinion she said she thinks and anvil should be dropped on her husbands head. She said I admit that I stayed out of my husbands way when dealing with his son but she had not known how things had developed, How my husband was weddled cajoled and screamed at to work holidays, some of those fights even bought the sheriff out they got so loud and the sherriff would beg my husband to please keep the peace and ciomply, He did not need a knock down fight on his hands he had enough drunks doing that, So my husband would. Then in 2002 it turned into outright threat with a firearm his father escorted him into work with a shotgun at his back saying you are niot going to force the father of three kids to miss Christmas. I found ou that two were with his first wife in Florida, and the other one was at his second wifes home in ohio and he was with his new girl friend. My husband had told me this but I was instructed not to believe it. It was just my husband wanting to disrupt the holidays.
> Then all I could say was that on Memorial day my husbands mere being there disrupted every thing. It was his first holiday at home in 32 years, Things did not go well, his father said at that point you are telling me, He said my jerk of a son invited himself to the cookout the had the audacity to make a good friend of mine just about run for his life, my son should realize he was the RNC chairman up in the town we came from a powerful person and my son to take his wife to the club instead of my friend tells him he is going to need a ride to the ER to get his arm removed from his rear if he did not scram. I did think that could have been handled better by my husband but we were on our way out and my husband was throwing a monkey wrench in, Then when his father tried to point out how it felt to be treated that way blows were exchanged My father in law got the worst.
> Then it was my husbands turn He pointed out the litany of how we as a unit, denied his civil rights, How uch he resented the way we did it and how many years of life he was owed, He said when you take a mans rights away you should not expect him to tell you, you did him a favor. It comes down to the fact we stole his life, just like slavers did, and now we live in a time where we have a group that thinks its a good and proper thing to deny rights, He said it started out small and he recognized he was but a small statistic, He knows how his father feels about society. But when you start thinking that one mans rights are not as important as another's because of power and privilege then its a blue print and permission to do so to others. Personally I could care less about you political friends they put their cloths on the same way. but to keep me as a slave for them and their families was wrong, And I intend to one day see them kiss my rosy red rear. As far as the party being held at my house on the fourth I know you plan to have some friends extract me from my home and leave me a ways away. I even know the little tale you will tell the police when I go to them about how it was just a joke we were going to just leave him for a little while then take him back and when the booze started I was forgotten I was 30 miles away with my walker. My father in law said well we have to do something to get you gone, I am glad you said that on the record. Because now I wont have to kill anyone. After you do this I wiil just put up token resistance then lets see how you and your friends like prison for a 40 year term. He said even now I could charge conspiracy to abduct. My father in law said there will not be a ransom asked for so its not abduction. My husband produced the state code, It states that the only requite for abduction is the removal of a person or persons from a place they have a right to be, be it private or public area by force. The minimum prison term is 40 years. I think that was the reason for this meeting. My husband just put everyone on notice.


Well written
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Want some answers? Want some results? Wanna be happy? Want her happy?

Read MMSLP... Like now. You be a better man. She'll love it.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

treyvion said:


> Well written
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But I don't understand anything and I read it over more than once.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

lessthennone said:


> She does say she want's me to be more intimate when we're not having sex. That's not a bad thing, because I want her to be more intimate when we are having sex.
> ------
> I asked her for an example of an intimate act we can do at home while the kids are asleep. She said, "snuggle without it ending in sex". How does ending in sex make it not intimate.:scratchhead:


I am way behind on this thread, so apologies in advance.

I have the same issue here at home, and it's like a game of chicken almost. Occasionally one of us blinks first, and things go well for a few days or weeks, then we slide back into the game again. It's both our faults, to be honest.

The problem with us is that we both require the other to meet our needs in order for us to want to meet their needs in return. It's silly. We both know it's silly. However, we both also know that we each have the desire to meet each other's needs when it's happening. If she makes the effort to be more sexual, then I do actually have the desire to be more cuddly, and vice versa.

The difference between us, and it seems you, is that your wife is making the demands, dangling the carrot, and she's unwilling to be the one to blink first - which is not fair. Neither one of you should be expecting the other to go first. Rather, neither of you should feel like going first is "losing".

When my wife and I go through these phases where things are clicking, it's magical. But something always ends up breaking the streak for a little while (work, kids, lack of sleep, stress, etc. Typical things.) Then we fall back into the bad part of the cycle where we each point out that the other isn't meeting our needs, therefore they don't have the desire to do the same... and on and on and on. It's stupid, really. 

In a perfect world, each spouse has the desire to please their partner at all times, as opposed to only wanting to when their needs are being met. I am not a cuddly, snuggly person by nature, however I certainly have the desire when my wife is being more sexual with me. And I'm not talking about me being more cuddly with her in order to GET sex. When we're rolling along happily, I'm generally more cuddly with her because my desire to be physically close to her is there, whether it ends up in sex or not. And the same is true in her sexual desire when I'm being more cuddly with her.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

How about just being the leader, alex, and being affectionate with her? 

Your experience tells you that meeting her needs will end with her meeting yours. So why wait to do it?


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Hey less-

I have been trying to improve my marriage for about 4 years now. I've read so many books to help. Most of them was on how to be more beta. My wife was always too tired as well. So after a full days work, I would come home and make dinner, do dishes, finish laundry.....There is usually a temporary improvement, but never lasted long, so I did more. The cycle repeated over and over...

Reading MMSLP was a nightmare...I realize there is nothing I can do to get the intimacy, love, sex, and affection I crave...its just not there... I went from a 34 inch waist to a 30 inch. My shoulders are 48 inches now. Don't know what they were before. My wife is way overweight and has no desire to change.


As of now, sex has stopped, I stopped cooking because my wife is home all day and our daughter is in camp. If I am home, she assumes I will make dinner. Not anymore. I wash, dry, and put away my own clothes and daughters clothes first. If there is room, I may add some of her clothes. I will wash the dinner dishes, but I leave the daytime dishes...I am a total A-hole now. I no longer desire sex. The elephant just keeps getting bigger.

There is no simple answer less..

Ignoring my wife on all levels is my last "trick". I have nothing else up my sleeve. I even drink my morning coffee on our porch instead of talking to her on the couch like I have done for 20 some years... 

Threatening D didn't even help because she said I could have sex outside of marriage... Open marriage contract and all. Very stupid... She knows I wouldn't do that...She doesn't respond to anything I do. Even when I would be gone with my hiking group all day...


I definitely can understand the frustration..


I hate this because our 10 year old daughter is observing our behavior...this kills me inside. What are we teaching her?

Like some have said and I will add, take care of yourself, exercise, be healthy, spend time on a hobby or two, read non marriage books, and get out and meet new people. Build your support group. You may need that.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

lessthennone said:


> Recently, I saw her give a hard candy to our 3 year old in the car. I said I didn't think it was a good idea. Well, she gave it to me.


Say "Get that out of his mouth while I am driving".
Followed by "Don't give the kids hard candy while I am driving, I want to focus on the road and not worry about them choking".

Your problem is being wishy washy gets you yelled at. But, choose your battles. If this is not really crucial or a safety issue, let her give them all the candy she wants.




lessthennone said:


> But, how do I correct a behavior that I know is wrong, without her thinking I'm attacking her? Yesterday, she was so busy defending her smoking, that she didn't realize I wasn't saying quit smoking. I was saying have dinner with us. If you have time for a cig, you have time for dinner.


I would like us to eat together as a family... Once she reacts with hissy fits, you tell her she can do whatever she wants, but you would like us to eat together as a family.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

lessthennone said:


> Hobby is after the kids go to bed on Sunday. It's pretty much an online class and I scheduled it to be at the most convenient time for all of us. It does take some "homework" so to speak, so I may have a few hours of prep work for the meeting, but I do that when everyone is asleep. Even if I have to wake up early or stay up late.


You describe a scenario where your free time is last in line behind what everyone else needs. Her convenience, the kids, everything else comes first. That can lead to a very unhealthy dynamic where it becomes expected and the default setting. 

I suggest a two part approach:

First, set up time for her to get away herself. Take the kids out to dinner or to the park a couple of times a week to give her alone time. You will also need to be diligent about handling your half of the responsibilities around the house.

But next is taking some time for yourself. Do something where you are not last in the order. Go out with a friend, hit the gym, whatever. Have a couple hours of fun.

You will feel better about yourself, and you will work to avoid the bad dynamic.


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

extremneed said:


> In my instance...
> My husband just put everyone on notice.


I swear this reads like something out of the world of 1984. Nicely done. Big fan of dystopian fiction!

Paragraphs would be nice.


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> But I don't understand anything and I read it over more than once.


Read her other posts. It's awesome. If even 1% of it is true, it is the most F'd up family I have ever heard of.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

extremneed said:


> In my instance, I rally was the instigator of the no sex policy, My husband wanted it, he even begged for it, but I had made a promise to his father and others in the area that control would be maintained, for the good of everyone. After 31 years I am realizing how much I had been used, my husband tried to tell me what, It meant to be able to control his own life because everyone out there was looking to keep their own wants intact and when a man is forced to give up rights, it brings all rights into question, I forced my husband to not take the shifts, jobs, the overtime, the weekends and the holidays...
> 
> ...He said even now I could charge conspiracy to abduct. My father in law said there will not be a ransom asked for so its not abduction. My husband produced the state code, It states that the only requite for abduction is the removal of a person or persons from a place they have a right to be, be it private or public area by force. The minimum prison term is 40 years. I think that was the reason for this meeting. My husband just put everyone on notice.


Huh? Not a clue what this person is talking about, nor how it pertains to this thread. :scratchhead:


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

lessthennone said:


> She is on medication for depression, but maybe it's not as effective as it was?


What makes you think it was effective in the first place? 

Fact - she's not eating much and she's sleeping a lot whenever she gets a chance. Those are classic signs of depression.

Fact - many depression meds lower libido. Not all of them do, but this is a really good starting point to investigate. A switch in medications might be helpful.

Fact - she's having her period twice a month. There is something wrong because that is not a normal cycle. That much blood loss (and iron loss) can also cause or exacerbate anemia, which can make a person very tired. If she's not getting enough iron in her diet, that can make anemia it worse. Has she had a blood test for anemia? She should! A doc can prescribe a course of iron supplements (which she shouldn't take without a doctor's recommendation because too much iron is also a problem). Plus, two weeks of the month she is bleeding, and the rest of the time she is probably feeling like crap because periods rarely just show up without the harbinger of bloating or cramps or pains or swelling and painful breasts. PMS is a thing, and she's got it two weeks a month in addition to having her period two weeks a month. That would make any woman cranky and feeling unsexy.

Fact - her doc wants her to try different birth control method. I have no idea why her doctor's recommendation to try new birth control is "exciting" to you. What is exciting about it? For her, it might make sex even less appealing, either because of the fear of pregnancy (not all types of birth control are as effective as hormonal BC pills), or being uncomfortable with a diaphragm, or pain (insertion of IUD), etc.


It doesn't sound like she is enjoying much about her life, to be honest. It sounds like she spends her whole day at home with the kids, and finds it exhausting and dull. Hard to switch gears into being a sexual person who feels sexy and sexual when your day feels dreary every day.

It also doesn't sound like you are a naturally affectionate person, and that may leave her cold when you think it's time to jump into sex. Affection is non-sexual touching, holding hands, hugs, cuddling, little kisses throughout the day. Without it, yes, she's going to think all you care about is what's between her legs.

There is a lot going on here, but I think starting with the doctors is important. There are underlying physical and mental issues here that don't contribute to a healthy sex life.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

In regards to her depression, eating, birth control; I completely agree. That doesn't change the behavior, though. I'm not sure she sees the issue. 

I do have a question, though. If we split getting up early with our son. I'm Monday, she's Tuesday. I wake up, feed him, wait for his sister; get her up. Mommy wakes up around 11am. When it's her turn, she goes downstairs and falls asleep on the sofa after bringing him down. I'm usually up early, so I end up coming down shortly after, getting our daughter and taking care of them till she's awake. She now claims we're splitting the mornings, but it doesn't feel like that. What do you think?

I am reading the MMST.... Missed a letter there i think. I get the concept. I can see why it could be effective. Started some basic weight training. 

OK. Heres the kicker. Yesterday, my wife gets a certified letter. I guess she has 8k in secret credit card debt that she just ignored. In her words, she forgot. She now has to show up in court or I have to pay it. I can pay it, but I really want to see the statements. I never told her not to buy stuff, so I don't understand using a secret account. 

Less
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I Don't Know said:


> Read her other posts. It's awesome. If even 1% of it is true, it is the most F'd up family I have ever heard of.


One of these days I'll find the book that her posts are based on...


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Here's what you have.
Your wife does not like her life, so she spends alot of time avoiding interacting with the family.
-- Smoking breaks taking 45 minutes
-- Sleeping until 11:30
-- Not eating with the family.

She's crying out for a different life, a more fun life, a more mutually fulfilling life. Taking care of little kids sucks and can suck the energy out of a person.

You have to be the leader. What does this mean?
1. Set the parameters for what you expect in your family. Policies and values for the "greater good" which will give her what she is yearning for. For example, marriage and family should be fun and fulfilling. We are a team. We all try to make each other's lives better. A great marriage is important for the children's well being. Our immediate family is the family, and other people and situations cannot come before it (jobs, sick relatives, money problems). We save for the future. We don't go into debt. Family dinner is important. The list is endless.
2. You then live your life by example. You make things fun and fulfilling. You live with a positive attitude. You do things on purpose to make her glad she is married to you. You create a positve vibe around you. You tell her how great of a mother she is. You make her feel good about being a Stay at Home mom because you know that's great for your kids. 
3. But it's not always "Postively received". Conflicts occur becuase if everyone naturally wanted the postive, fun, friendly team based marriage, then you would already have it. So there is a fair amount of conflict that has to occur. Your wife will constantly chip away at your policies (to see if you are strong in your resolve, or as a way to assert herself over you). So where this goes is you offer her choices basically. For example, as you observe she is not happy as a stay at home mom, then you tell her that she can make the choice between working and staying home with the kids and that you expect her to set up her life situation in such a way that she is happy in her day to day. If her mother's health is getting in the way of her mothering your children, you point out that she has to make a choice between prioritizing her mother or her own family. Don't make her choices for her, and expect her to throw tantrums when you are laying it out... But give her time to process what you asked her to choose and let her make the choices. YOu make judgements based on her choices... but that's a ways off.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

lessthennone said:


> OK. Heres the kicker. Yesterday, my wife gets a certified letter. I guess she has 8k in secret credit card debt that she just ignored. In her words, she forgot. She now has to show up in court or I have to pay it. I can pay it, but I really want to see the statements. I never told her not to buy stuff, so I don't understand using a secret account.
> 
> Less
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Uh oh. This is very serious. If your spouse starts running up secret debt . . . well, I would divorce over financial infidelity.

I would let her show up in court. Plus you need to see the statements.

Yikes, OP. You have my sympathy!


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

IPoH said:


> I'd say all the sleep, lack of eating and general apathy screams depression, she may need professional help.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OP

I'm wondering how much you have considered this possibility. This all reads to me like a bit more than just her decreased interest in sex after giving birth. Sounds like she is becoming emotionally unavailable. If she is depressed only professional help will give her a chance at becoming herself again.
Nonetheless her depression is not your fault, if that is the issue. Her recovery is her responsibility, and it doesn't give her a pass on her marital responsibilities.


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## IWantGreatMarriage (May 20, 2014)

lessthennone said:


> OK. Thanks for the replies. I didn't realize that it was mostly guys here. Not a bad thing, but I was more expecting a barrage of women telling me how to "understand".
> 
> I will look into the books that were suggested. I have purchased and read book that were more for her. But as I said, the author is usually wanting more sex, and trying to find a way to get it. In my case, I need to create the desire.
> 
> ...


OP, from a woman's point of view please listen to your wife. Our brains and that of men work differently. To you, snuggling ending in sex is a good thing, to her, *YOU ONLY SNUGGLE WITH HER WHEN YOU NEED SEX*. Try to snuggle without asking for sex. Do the small things that scream "I love you" without expecting the "reward". You never know, she might start feeling desired again not just as an object of sexual gratification, and then, she might decide to please you more with the sex you actually need. It might sound crazy, I know, but then whoever says that women are rational? Most of the time we don't even understand ourselves.

Goodluck


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Think of ways to touch and hug when you are in places where there is no possibility of having sex. Remember when you first met? I'll bet you were affectionate in public. You can do that tastefully. 

For instance at parties stand together touching and put your hand around her waist. Stand behind her closely touching her lightly. Keep an eye on her when you are in a crowded room. Try to meet her eye. Seek her out when you get separated at gatherings. Don't hang around just with each other but go away and then come back for a bit. That will let her know that you are thinking about her. It makes her feel that she is important to you.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Think of ways to touch and hug when you are in places where there is no possibility of having sex. Remember when you first met? I'll bet you were affectionate in public. You can do that tastefully.
> 
> For instance at parties stand together touching and put your hand around her waist. Stand behind her closely touching her lightly. Keep an eye on her when you are in a crowded room. Try to meet her eye. Seek her out when you get separated at gatherings. Don't hang around just with each other but go away and then come back for a bit. That will let her know that you are thinking about her. It makes her feel that she is important to you.


Lets turn this around...

What if its the woman...

For instance at parties stand together touching and put your hand on your husbands arm. Stand close and look deep into his eyes. Be sure to look for him as he is across the room and seek him out. Don't crowd him but simply go away and come back for a bit. It makes him feel special and most importantly have sex with him that night...

Just like you used to do.

-------
Not sure why its ALWAYS on the man to cater to the woman after all it is the woman who usually changes and the man is all the sudden with someone they don't even recognize anymore who will do ANYTHING to avoid sex with him. But the advice is ALWAYS for him to change.

What about the WOMAN? Does SHE need to change after all it was her who withholds sex in many of these cases.

Rinse repeat


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

intheory said:


> I read the whole thread waiting for someone to point out anemia.
> 
> One of the classic symptoms is *being tired no matter how much you sleep.* Sleep cannot make up for not having enough iron>oxygen in your blood cells.
> 
> ...


Let me correct you on the notion "most WOMEN love sex...."


It is well known to clinical psychologists and marriage counselors everywhere, many women who feel close to a loving partner nevertheless *fail to feel passion for him. 
*

Hence this forum

Men feel passion until sex is withheld for NO GOOD REASON unilaterally


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Lets turn this around...
> 
> What if its the woman...
> 
> ...


I can't disagree with you Trying. My advice was to him because he asked for suggestions. But it would be nice if his wife saw things that way. She should give as much or more than she gets according to what is important to her husband.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> I can't disagree with you Trying. My advice was to him because he asked for suggestions. But it would be nice if his wife saw things that way. She should give as much or more than she gets according to what is important to her husband.


Catherine is good you agree...that's progress

The problem is there really is NO solution the problem lies in long term relationships and how women process things and society

One they have kids they value the FATHER aspects of their husbands and lose site of them as their HUSBAND.... they remember the bad (rolodex)over the everyday good and they take away a primary joy in his life.... happens all of the time.

Yet its always on the man to change... I don't buy it at all.

Its on the woman who changed to change back. That is the solution but they lose site of that goal and continue on with the change seeing him a a Father not a husband. They create their own misery.
Men stick it out because its the right thing to do. Sad reality....no one wins.


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## where_are_we (May 24, 2013)

Personal said:


> Although I am far from any kind of sex god, from the age of 16-17, *I have always been very attentive to what women do and do not enjoy during sex.
> *


In my opinion, that bolded statement is key. And it goes both ways. Both parties must pay attention to their partners reactions. 

If they still are not "getting it" then it is up to you to guide them and teach them how to respond to you, or move on. NOT sit there and expect them to read your mind.

I too, have had first time encounters where I thought the man could read my mind. They just knew. Why? Because they paid attention to my response. Body language, eyes, breathing pattern, sounds...everything. The best lovers know how to do this.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> What about the WOMAN? Does SHE need to change after all it was her who withholds sex in many of these cases.
> 
> Rinse repeat


How is HE supposed to achieve HER changing? THAT is the point.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> How is HE supposed to achieve HER changing? THAT is the point.


Thats the issue isn't it.

See the typical advice is for the man to change...be more conversant, listen to her, get buff, go on dates..yet when men do this and NOTHING changes...if this worked success stories would be right and left. Instead the same I do x,y,z and still no response.

Do more is the after advice.... do more....that's ludicrous

The reality is the only thing that fixes these situations is when the WOMAN decides to do something and that is basically in a vacuum and does not involve the man at all. 

So the bottom line is there isn't much for a man to do at all apart for waiting for HER to change.

You don't get her to change..she changes on her own possibly.

In the meantime... men deal with it or they leave and or outsource.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Thats the issue isn't it.
> 
> See the typical advice is for the man to change...be more conversant, listen to her, get buff, go on dates..yet when men do this and NOTHING changes...if this worked success stories would be right and left. Instead the same I do x,y,z and still no response.
> 
> ...


No. It's the person who has the problem with a situation is the one who wants change, so normally the initiator of the conversation is the change agent. It's human nature to want to work on yourself first so that your "side of the street" is clean. It's tough to draw attention to a bad situation and desire change whenever you have plenty of your own baggage. 

Your views are jaundiced by your personal experiences. I feel bad for you that you can't seem to find the courage to pull the plug on your horrible situation.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> No. It's the person who has the problem with a situation is the one who wants change, so normally the initiator of the conversation is the change agent. It's human nature to want to work on yourself first so that your "side of the street" is clean. It's tough to draw attention to a bad situation and desire change whenever you have plenty of your own baggage.
> 
> Your views are jaundiced by your personal experiences. I feel bad for you that you can't seem to find the courage to pull the plug on your horrible situation.


Ah but the "change agent" gets nowhere and the success stories are not that the "change agent" did anything but rather that the withholding spouse out of the blue one day decided not to to that anymore and make positive moves toward sex again.

Its the same as those who have been through divorce with their ex..then on their new partner the ENSURE that won't happen again with sex.

See how it works even those liberated in their second marriage could NOT work it out in their first.

So YES divorce is the answer partially because its obviously very difficult and exceeding long to try to "fix" a primary marriage.

I do speak the truth being through this process. Thats why books like MMSL,HNHN or any of the others don't work.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Ah but the "change agent" gets nowhere and the success stories are not that the "change agent" did anything but rather that the withholding spouse out of the blue one day decided not to to that anymore and make positive moves toward sex again.
> 
> Its the same as those who have been through divorce with their ex..then on their new partner the ENSURE that won't happen again with sex.
> 
> ...


Both have to change for a marriage to be successful. The person who is the first mover will change first. I'm not a huge fan of MMSLP or NMMNG, but they do work for a number of people. People only change if the marriage, or more specifically the partner is someone worth holding onto. 

Speaking from a guy's POV, if a wife is showing little interest in her H, and her H comes to her and tries to get her to change, she will respond if she 1) feels genuine love for her H, 2) sees value in keeping him in her life as her H and 3) sees that her increasingly more desirable H would be fine - maybe happier - if she was no longer in her life. If she sees this, AND UNDERSTANDS THAT THE H WILL NO LONGER ACCEPT A SEXLESS MARRIAGE, then she'll change.

OTOH, if the H asks for change but the wife does not feel a strong love (or attraction) for him, does not see him as a very desirable catch and is neutral at best on whether her H would leave, then she will do nothing to change. 

I don't see how where this is complicated. It's common sense really. I'm sure from a woman's POV, the situation would be similar.


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## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Both have to change for a marriage to be successful. The person who is the first mover will change first. I'm not a huge fan of MMSLP or NMMNG, but they do work for a number of people. People only change if the marriage, or more specifically the partner is someone worth holding onto.
> 
> Speaking from a guy's POV, if a wife is showing little interest in her H, and her H comes to her and tries to get her to change, she will respond if she 1) feels genuine love for her H, 2) sees value in keeping him in her life as her H and 3) sees that her increasingly more desirable H would be fine - maybe happier - if she was no longer in her life. If she sees this, AND UNDERSTANDS THAT THE H WILL NO LONGER ACCEPT A SEXLESS MARRIAGE, then she'll change.
> 
> ...



Very well written :iagree:


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Both have to change for a marriage to be successful. The person who is the first mover will change first. I'm not a huge fan of MMSLP or NMMNG, but they do work for a number of people. People only change if the marriage, or more specifically the partner is someone worth holding onto.
> 
> Speaking from a guy's POV, if a wife is showing little interest in her H, and her H comes to her and tries to get her to change, she will respond if she 1) feels genuine love for her H, 2) sees value in keeping him in her life as her H and 3) sees that her increasingly more desirable H would be fine - maybe happier - if she was no longer in her life. If she sees this, AND UNDERSTANDS THAT THE H WILL NO LONGER ACCEPT A SEXLESS MARRIAGE, then she'll change.
> 
> ...


So you force the threat of divorce to get sex right?

Its not her AUTHENTICALLY LIKING SEX WITH HIM its her fear of him bolting. Do really want to coerce your own wife into sex because you won't accept anything less?

Big difference between that and HER deciding sex is part of what is good in her marriage for her.

That's the problem all around..people need to be authentic not coerced.

You are treating marriage sex like a business decision

May work but really does it.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> So you force the threat of divorce to get sex right?
> 
> Its not her AUTHENTICALLY LIKING SEX WITH HIM its her fear of him bolting. Do really want to coerce your own wife into sex because you won't accept anything less?
> 
> ...


Not at all. I see it as a moment of clarity for the marriage - assuming that the aggrieved person views a healthy sex life as a critical component to a marriage. If the wife truly loves her husband, then she'll WANT to make a change for the better. If she doesn't, then she won't. Bottom line is that everyone deserves to have a happy and fulfilling marriage. While you think of it as little more than coercion, I see it as a person who is standing up for his happiness. No one should have to play the role of the martyr in order to "keep peace" in a marriage. Frankly, it's wasting your life.

Answer me this: Is it possible for a woman to feel love for her husband without desiring to have sex with him? I'm not asking if she could love him or not, because there are different types of love. I'm asking can a woman love a man as her husband without feeling sexual attraction? IMHO, I don't think it's possible. If a wife professes that she loves her husband, but has zero desire to have sex with him, then she actually loves him as a friend, brother, or even possibly a father figure. But she does not love him as a husband.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Not at all. I see it as a moment of clarity for the marriage - assuming that the aggrieved person views a healthy sex life as a critical component to a marriage. If the wife truly loves her husband, then she'll WANT to make a change for the better. If she doesn't, then she won't. Bottom line is that everyone deserves to have a happy and fulfilling marriage. While you think of it as little more than coercion, I see it as a person who is standing up for his happiness. No one should have to play the role of the martyr in order to "keep peace" in a marriage. Frankly, it's wasting your life.


Is it? I don't see it that way. Again the wife is an ADULT who can make their own decisions. Same as you as the Husband. One thing I will not accept is forcing her to do anything to make me happy including sex. So by standing up for "A healthy sex life is critical to my marriage" that is coercion.

What all of us WANT is for our wives to authentically want sex with us...be wanted.

You don't get that by complaining about what is missing. You get that when SHE wants sex with you. 

So bottom line for me is if she isn't wanting sex with me then fine. That's her decision again she is an adult.

I can stay or go that's my decision


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Not at all. I see it as a moment of clarity for the marriage - assuming that the aggrieved person views a healthy sex life as a critical component to a marriage. If the wife truly loves her husband, then she'll WANT to make a change for the better. If she doesn't, then she won't. Bottom line is that everyone deserves to have a happy and fulfilling marriage. While you think of it as little more than coercion, I see it as a person who is standing up for his happiness. No one should have to play the role of the martyr in order to "keep peace" in a marriage. Frankly, it's wasting your life.
> 
> Answer me this: Is it possible for a woman to feel love for her husband without desiring to have sex with him? I'm not asking if she could love him or not, because there are different types of love. I'm asking can a woman love a man as her husband without feeling sexual attraction? IMHO, I don't think it's possible. If a wife professes that she loves her husband, but has zero desire to have sex with him, then she actually loves him as a friend, brother, or even possibly a father figure. But she does not love him as a husband.


As for your LOVE question I agree.... I don't think my wife LOVES me in the sense of what would be defined as love for a husband..she likely loves other parts of me.

I'm the same way with her I love certain parts of her not in love with her as my wife anymore....to much water under the bridge from the sexless years for that type of love.

I do believe sex is critical for that LOVE


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> You don't get her to change..she changes on her own possibly.


That simply isn't true. My life is evidence of that. In a relationship of 2 people, action by one can cause a REaction by another. But the guys you see on here just want to complain. She used to have sex, now she doesn't. Ok mr fix it. What changed? What is the root cause. 

I am always laughing when I see these posts. Men have the reputation of being problem solvers. But the vast majority of managers in my organization are women. Because they can solve PEOPLE problems. Plumbing is easy because the root cause is obvious. But it never even occurs to the guys on here to seek root cause. When asked what they have done, they say that have told their wives they want more sex. And when that didn't work, they did it again. And again. And again. For years. When it did not work the first million times, why would they think it would work the next million? Talk about a massive horny killer.


Real life story from my life. In a relationship with a guy. At first, he was charming, romantic and witty. We did things together. All the time. We screwed like bunnies. And I loved it. But he started wanting to see me at his place. It had to be sleepovers, and I pretty much had to be DTF. He would get hurt, rejected, offended, question my love for him. But whenever I invited him to do anything else, that wasn't be just showing up for a marathon booty session, he was never free, too tired or just not interested. He never, ever ever sought to get together for my showing up to bang him. His words said, it is not just about sex. But since that was ALL he was ever interested in doing with him, I was forced to conclude that the words lied. All this time, sort of foolishly in retrospect, I kept showing up all DTF. I keep telling him what *I* needed. But he never heard. Not a syllable. He seemed to forget these conversations entirely until I think he was really not hearing me at all. Like I was not even there. Not even there. Until I was DTF. 

Well I am going to tell you something. Complaining about lack of sex while having your own needs ignored is really un-hot. It does not wet my whistle. Do when we do do it, it SUCKS for me. I am there, and he is like a pumping machine, except when he is trying to get me to squirt. Not trying to give me the time of MY life. Trying to get me to squirt. Because HE likes it. Guess how much that makes me want to do it again next time.

It wasn't working for me. So I stopped. Then it comes. What happened? Why aren't we having sex anymore? Bait and switch. Yes indeedy. I got that I was lying. That I had set an expectation. That I did not know what I wanted. Well if I baited and switched, well so did he. He had a road map with exactly what he could do to light my fire. Really to KEEP my fire lit. Couldn't be bothered. All he could do was keep complaining about not getting sex. 

I can tell you what I said to him. Bye. I was not married. But these women you are married to, who used to be good to go and now are not, they are. They have kids, mortgages and family expectations requiring that they stay to, or at least making it hard to leave. And really, you ignore her. Why shouldn't she just ignore you too? And then bury her feelings in disappointment and resentment. By the time you finally ASK her what is wrong, she has been trying to tell you for years.

How many of these sexless men would admit that their lives just might look like this too over the years? If one of them did, they would have the power to solve all their problems. Instead they whine that they shouldn't have to. That their wives signed a contract. (Really? That is just nasty.)

Did these guys pick up a book? Read about love languages? Get a counselor? Learn about active and reflexive listening? Ever TRY to think about root cause?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

^^ That simply isn't true. My life is evidence of that. In a relationship of 2 people, action by one can cause a REaction by another.

The example I then gave is not of this. This was with my husband many years ago around relationship balance. A combo between openly giving him what he needed and effective limit setting on my needs. It is no guarantee. But it beats nagging and whining every time.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Both have to change for a marriage to be successful. The person who is the first mover will change first. I'm not a huge fan of MMSLP or NMMNG, but they do work for a number of people. People only change if the marriage, or more specifically the partner is someone worth holding onto.
> 
> Speaking from a guy's POV, if a wife is showing little interest in her H, and her H comes to her and tries to get her to change, she will respond if she 1) feels genuine love for her H, 2) sees value in keeping him in her life as her H and 3) sees that her increasingly more desirable H would be fine - maybe happier - if she was no longer in her life. If she sees this, AND UNDERSTANDS THAT THE H WILL NO LONGER ACCEPT A SEXLESS MARRIAGE, then she'll change.


This is important when the root cause really is the wife putting other priorities ahead of the husband and needs a snap out of it moment.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> That simply isn't true. My life is evidence of that. In a relationship of 2 people, action by one can cause a REaction by another. But the guys you see on here just want to complain. She used to have sex, now she doesn't. Ok mr fix it. What changed? What is the root cause.
> 
> I am always laughing when I see these posts. Men have the reputation of being problem solvers. But the vast majority of managers in my organization are women. Because they can solve PEOPLE problems. Plumbing is easy because the root cause is obvious. But it never even occurs to the guys on here to seek root cause. When asked what they have done, they say that have told their wives they want more sex. And when that didn't work, they did it again. And again. And again. For years. When it did not work the first million times, why would they think it would work the next million? Talk about a massive horny killer.
> 
> ...


Ok first off that was not a long term marriage...

What is different in long term marriages is yes sex MUST become boring to an extent to the Wife.... then we get to the precipice of whether she leans towards duty sex or sexless.

In some rare marriages they are authentically sexually attracted throughout but in many the attraction aspect goes out the door as everyday slights add up.

So your example is not a good one.... it is short sighted in terms of a longer term marriage and its issues.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Ok first off that was not a long term marriage...
> 
> What is different in long term marriages is yes sex MUST become boring to an extent to the Wife....


It isn't for me. I am having the best sex of my entire life. I have been married for 20 years. You know why? First, my husband would never have that ****ty attitude. He doesn't want me laying there, and checking off acts with some frequency that he deems appropriate. He wants me on fire. And he wants to be the one to do that WITH me.

But also, the reason I used the other example rather than the sexless early days of our marriage is because my husband's REaction to my action was different than what I see so often here. His reaction to my action was to think, yah why don't I try to really understand what the heck it is she is saying. I don't want to read that stupid love languages article. But it is means making our life happy, making our marriage happy and making our sex life happy, what is 20 minutes in my life? My reaction to his action was to think well he doesn't always get me. But he is trying. And of course, marriage is supposed to have sex in it, so let's do some of that and see what we can build.

That is how we went from sexless to 15 years of mind blowing sex. Sure there are down times when we are tired. A week goes by. We've got kids. Stuff happens. Then there are weekends we do it six times, stumble into work exhausted from going at it half the night, just to come home crazy for more.





> then we get to the precipice of whether she leans towards duty sex or sexless.


LOL. You must really bring it.



> In some rare marriages they are authentically sexually attracted throughout but in many the attraction aspect goes out the door as everyday slights add up.


Huh. I wonder why that is? It is probably easier to whine than to think about the real root cause. Isn't it? Like my BF. Whom I left. In order to enjoy 15 years of awesome. Which guy are you? Assuming it is not too late.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> It isn't for me. I am having the best sex of my entire life. I have been married for 20 years. You know why? First, my husband would never have that ****ty attitude. He doesn't want me laying there, and checking off acts with some frequency that he deems appropriate. He wants me on fire. And he wants to be the one to do that WITH me.
> 
> But also, the reason I used the other example rather than the sexless early days of our marriage is because my husband's REaction to my action was different than what I see so often here. His reaction to my action was to think, yah why don't I try to really understand what the heck it is she is saying. I don't want to read that stupid love languages article. But it is means making our life happy, making our marriage happy and making our sex life happy, what is 20 minutes in my life? My reaction to his action was to think well he doesn't always get me. But he is trying. And of course, marriage is supposed to have sex in it, so let's do some of that and see what we can build.
> 
> ...


You did something..that is why your marriage is working now after sexless you decided to try sex and you realize now its better than sexless...ding ding ding winner

Again YOU were the root cause not him


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> You did something..that is why your marriage is working now after sexless you decided to try sex and you realize now its better than sexless...ding ding ding winner
> 
> Again YOU were the root cause not him


Nope. I simply stopped having sex with him because it was no longer tolerable to do so. When he asked me why, HE LISTENED. The one thing I did not do was respond to his blow offs with more sex.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

There is a hell of a lot more missing from this marriage equation than sex.

That's just what gets the spotlight. Lack of sex isn't even the real problem here. It's a symptom.

Mentally ill or otherwise, your wife is behaving horribly. HORRIBLY ... and you tolerate and/or enable it. 

Once a spouse loses attraction and respect for the other, and make no mistake dude ... she's lost it for you, it is virtually impossible to 'nice' your way out of that dynamic. Actually, quite to the contrary it usually further exacerbates bad behavior.

I agree with looking for answers and trying to be understanding.

I do not and cannot agree with do more, hug more, give more, listen more, sacrifice more.

How 'bout this? 

No more.

Destabilize.

She has become quite comfortable in her misery ... mental illness or no.

Take care of you. Take care of your kids. You can detach without being condescending, disrespectful or hurtful. 

What does she value? Does she value the marriage? Does she value you? I think it's time to find that out, don't you?

You obviously do, you're here ... and saying you won't divorce.

Sure you will. Particularly if she makes the decision and not you.

Find a way to shake things up. Shake her up.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Hi guys, the OP here. I've been reading, just not commenting. 

So I did read the MMSLP. I like some of it and I dislike some of it. I'm not the type to have an outside relationship. I do see the benefit of working out and making myself more attractive. I've started a basic exercise routine. I don't know if it's related, but she's been having dreams that I'm cheating, and she's been telling me I smell like perfume. I'm not cheating. I think she's seen a bit of a behavior change, and is responding to her subconscious. 

I also suggested we all sit together for dinner and we have. I've also told her to "handle" issues that were inconvenient for me for one reason or another. Normally, they would involve me staying up late or waking up early. 

She still has her eating and energy problems, but I'm suggesting to her that it's pretty clear what her problems are. It's probably only a matter of time before she starts realizing it. 

We did have sex twice(thrice if the shower counts). It's kind of funny, because I read something in the MMSLP that I liked. I'm not responsible for her O. Previously, I'd ask her if she wanted oral. I'd either get a yes or no. The other night, I didn't ask, and she didn't request. So when it was all over, I could tell she wasn't satisfied. So that's a bad thing, right? Nope, the next day, she wanted it and she made it clear. Then as I was giving it to her, she was more verbal and responsive then ever before. Both times, were better then usual and I'm still thinking about the things she said to me. 

So... As has been suggested, sex isn't our only issue, but if we can remove it from our issues, it could help a lot.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I actually think you would be better served by 'Hold Onto Your N.U.T's' rather than 'MMSLP'. Keep it in mind.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

So I may be moving fast, but I'm impatient...

I mentioned to my wife that the symptoms she's been complaining about seem to stem from the fact that she's not eating enough. I suggested that she could be anemic. She's had an eating disorder in the past, so this seems likely. Of course, she's the expert on this, not me. 

She got really defensive and said that she's tired because we have kids. I mentioned that everyone with kids doesn't have the same symptoms. She told me I had a tone. I didn't, but I don't care if she thinks I do. She asked who I'm talking to. 

I can only speak for myself, but if I didn't eat until 10pm at night, I'd be miserable and tired. I'd probably not have any energy. I'd probably be acting just like she does. 

This is the same thing again. I say something obvious and she gets really defensive and mad.


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