# would you want someone that was unhappy to stay with you even if they are unhappy



## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

If you were married , and for some reason things were not working out would you expect that person to stay with you for ever , 

just how far are you willing to go to stay married ?
and how far do you expect your partner to go? 
once you slip that ring on your fingers is it for life or until best before , in other words will you fight to stay go to MC go to doctors , to church leaders , 
talk to family , friends, 

some people met their lover we see it here often " we got together in collage and I am from one type family and they are from a very different back ground, " 
or I don't like how they are bringing up the kids, 
or I found out they cheated in a relationship before our getting together ,
or I discovered they had a sex friend before ,

or the sex was good but not it is just once in a blue moon 
or money and job is more important ,
or they can't have sex so we discussed they getting it outside ,
or you find out the guy is into crossdressing 

what I AM getting at is we meet and when dating we see the best side and show our best side but things change or we find out a different side or as many say when we lived together and dating the sex was every day once the ring went on it started to die , do you try fix it and at what stage do you stop flogging the dead horse , 
is something like bi or crossdressing or what other thing I can't think of other now , something that is not seen or known before or might even be a new side to them as they change and get older so go in a different way to you ,


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

A friend once said when we talked about staying for the kids , "My parents have been divorced for 20 years and when they were married, they were constantly arguing and fighting. People got involved when they weren’t supposed to and it was so toxic for me and my brother. For years, I realize that them getting divorced was probably the best thing to happen because we knew that they can’t be together! As a child dealing with that, I felt the pain and I learned from it and hope to not ever repeat it! Hurting kids from a toxic relationship isn’t fun. I experienced it first hand.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

> would you want someone that was unhappy to stay with you even if they are unhappy?


No. I don't want to make someone unhappy, that I care about. 

The details depend on what it is. There are hundreds of possibilities. As in your second post, the presence of children makes a difference. 


frenchpaddy said:


> A friend once said when we talked about staying for the kids


It's not "staying" for the kids, it's "staying and behaving decently and showing some self-control".


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

Laurentium said:


> No. I don't want to make someone unhappy, that I care about.


DO you love someone enough to let them go even though you think it could work and that you want to try ,


Laurentium said:


> self-control".


It depends of course what the difference is if it is about something that we outsiders see as easy fix like giving up a co worker , an affair , or the transvestism thingy , but if it is not a self control issue but a issue like a total different way of thinking we have seen people say she is from hippy family and they are all ways on drugs , 
or I am more intelligent we have seen that said , 
like love is blind , like something that used to be said to my wife often when her aunt used to think she was not seeing the real me thank god she is still blind , lol


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

frenchpaddy said:


> DO you love someone enough to let them go even though you think it could work and that you want to try ,


Yes, after a reasonable time trying to fix it. 



frenchpaddy said:


> but if it is not a self control issue but a issue like a total different way of thinking we have seen people say she is from hippy family and they are all ways on drugs , or I am more intelligent we have seen that said ,


By self-control, I don't mean things like giving up cross dressing or weed to fix the problem.
I mean if the problem can't be fixed. 
The hypothesis is that there's a serious problem, but despite that we've decided to "*stay together for the children*", and I'm saying, if you do that, you also have to stop attacking each other. Some people have that much self-control, some don't. Either leave, or give up fighting over something that can't be fixed.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

> One partner: "you're bad!!"
> Other partner: "no, you're bad!!"
> Me: "can you two stop doing that?"
> Them: "but I'm right!!"


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

No. If you don’t want to be with me, go. Now. No one HAS to be with me and if that’s how you feel then go.


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## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

Let's do the if thing.

If it was Lena Hedy, or Gal Gadot, and sex was still great, for a while I could live with it. After all we'd have our individual hobbies. 

If a normal W, no. That wouldn't stand.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

No, I wouldn’t want to remain married if my husband wasn’t happy. Happy is a relative term, though. And our feelings are sometimes fleeting. Like you might have a huge argument but then you apologize, and you’re no longer “unhappy.” But I think chronic arguments and constant underlying unhappiness isn’t healthy for two people to weather on a daily basis.

I would say though that a lot of people divorce over minor disagreements and fleeting moments of unhappiness, only to remarry and they’re still going through the same thing, only for different reasons.

So “happiness” is a word that may mean different things to different people. But, overall - No, I wouldn’t want to be in a one-sided marriage where there isn’t mutual happiness and fulfillment.


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## D0nnivain (Mar 13, 2021)

Stay forever no but work to make it better, absolutely.


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## Zedd (Jul 27, 2021)

I actually sort of went through this. After my son was born, my wife went into full on Mom mode, and just never came back. It didn't matter how much I tried, it just wasn't going to happen. Getting divorced kinda killed both of us for like a year. We were good together, but something was just missing a little. 

With the benefit of hindsight and learning, we had love-languages that didn't really work together naturally. Had I known then what I know now, we could have probably made it work and been pretty ok/happyish.

That said, divorce was the best decision I've ever made. We divorced before we were both truly unhappy and resented each other to the point we couldn't recover. We both have new people who better fit with each of us. We get along, still see each other's extended families for parties and holidays. Our new respective others get along with everyone great. My wife loves her (my-ex), I think her partner is a great dude and really good for her. We're just sorta one big weird family now.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

it's kinda depressing to say this, but most of the guys my age(50's) I know that are married are fairly unhappy, but won't leave...Mostly because it's too painful and expensive to leave, and they are too tired from killing themselves over the years to bother....

Most of them report that they are no longer having any sex, no longer even spend much time with their wives, instead bury themselves in projects, work, and hobbies.. Most barely talk to their wives other than for essential topics...

I don't really know if their wives are also miserable, it's entirely possible, but I can't say....I do find that women at this stage, are quite different from men, in that as long as they have some security and friends/family, that is usually enough to make them happy...Also a lot of these women(and their kids) have benefitted greatly from the men that have dutifully provided and put their needs before his own...That's not to say that women don't do anything but take, but a lot of the women in my circle spent a lot of time as SAHM, and were really never leaned on too much for the major essentials of a comfortable life..They didn't have to, so its really not their fault or anything.....

I also think a lot of guys get miserable during this time in life for the reasons mentioned, but also because a LOT of the guys they knew (some very well), have started to die off...I lost another close friend just this week...It does bring you down...

The crazy part is that these types of marriages count in the ledger of "successful marriages" just because they never divorced...If you counted these along with the ones that divorced, the number of truly successful long-term marriages start to look pretty small...

A lot of people are miserable and don't leave....


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## Works (Apr 3, 2016)

Noooooope.


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## Reluctant Texan (6 mo ago)

I think you owe it to your spouse to try. If discussions aimed at mutual understanding and resolving the unhappiness aren't fruitful, then you try MC. If that doesn't work, then it's time to end it.

You only hope the person who is unhappy has the guts to end it & take responsibility, and doesn't try to put it on the other person, blame them, and drag it out. 

In my experience, the unhappy person never does the latter...


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I would try to fix it, and if it couldn't be fixed, then I'd leave after reasonable efforts have been exhausted. If there is adequate improvement, but not a complete fix, then I'd consider an open relationship but keep the option of leaving if that doesn't address the problem sufficiently.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

No. My exH claimed he was happy during the decades we were married but I definitely wasn’t and he knew it. But I believed marriage was forever so I tried to make it work. I was a very, very slow learner.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I depends on why they are unhappy, often people project their unhappiness on things that are not responsible. There is also this toxic idea that happiness is the default human condition and if you are not happy something is wrong. Everything in my life tells me that is not true. The pursuit of happiness is a trap better pursue contentment. You can be content with your life but be unhappy in your current situation. Often it's reasonable to be unhappy if your circumstances are not good for you. This fits this current idea that emotions that are uncomfortable or make others uncomfortable are bad. It's a very immature idea. There are reasonable times to be unhappy, or angry, or sad. All emotions that the folks who espouse the idea that if you are not happy something is wrong crowd espouse. It's a utopian idea that sells books but leads to frustration.

I believe goal of life isn't to be happy it's to do good, happiness though nice is irrelevant. Do good and by that I mean be honorable, live an authentic life, treat others with respect, give of yourself, make friends and love them and your family, and you can be content even if your current situation doesn't make you happy. 

I say all that to say someone who thinks that unless they are happy all the time something is wrong is toxic and doomed to fail. If they expect others to provide that happiness for them they should be avoided. People can contribute to ones happiness and they certainly can contribute to unhappiness, but ultimately it's up to you to find your own happiness. The actions I wrote above can help with that.

If there are problems in the marriage you need two committed people to work on those problems, if one of them isn't committed this is also doomed to fail. My assessment would be more on their effort then my current state of happiness.

My two cents.


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## 342693 (Mar 2, 2020)

Some people are not happy with their lives (hate their job, are a negative person in general, etc) and just assume their marriage is to blame and blame their spouse for it. Trust me.


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## Reluctant Texan (6 mo ago)

sokillme said:


> I depends on why they are unhappy, often people project their unhappiness on things that are not responsible. There is also this toxic idea that happiness is the default human condition and if you are not happy something is wrong. Everything in my life tells me that is not true. The pursuit of happiness is a trap better pursue contentment. You can be content with your life but be unhappy in your current situation. ...


Well said. 

If a person doesn't know how to make themselves content, their partner isn't going to be able to do it. At least not in any sustainable way. 

Some people are really "_bottomless pits_" of need, but instead of having the self-reflection needed to recognize this and learn from it (or get professional help...), they put this burden on the people around them. And it falls to their spouse, because who else in their right mind would spend their time filling a bottomless pit?


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

The problem often is that leaving someone because you are unhappy, doesn't guarantee that happiness awaits....I think that's why a lot of people trudge on....

Of the people I know who are divorced, its mostly a mixed bag....Some are seemingly happier, some are more miserable than they were when married, and some are just pretty much in the same boat they were when married, just more broke because of it...


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## 342693 (Mar 2, 2020)

hamadryad said:


> The problem often is that leaving someone because you are unhappy, doesn't guarantee that happiness awaits....I think that's why a lot of people trudge on....
> 
> Of the people I know who are divorced, its mostly a mixed bag....Some are seemingly happier, some are more miserable than they were when married, and some are just pretty much in the same boat they were when married, just more broke because of it...


Almost like the grass really isn't greener


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

SCDad01 said:


> Almost like the grass really isn't greener


True, but to be fair, if you don't at least try then you will never know....


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## 342693 (Mar 2, 2020)

hamadryad said:


> True, but to be fair, if you don't at least try then you will never know....


True, just be prepared for the regret. Grass is usually greener where you water it.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

SCDad01 said:


> True, just be prepared for the regret. Grass is usually greener where you water it.


Or where the dogs are shytting....


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## 342693 (Mar 2, 2020)

hamadryad said:


> Or where the dogs are shytting....


LOL....true too.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

hamadryad said:


> The problem often is that leaving someone because you are unhappy, doesn't guarantee that happiness awaits....I think that's why a lot of people trudge on....
> 
> Of the people I know who are divorced, its mostly a mixed bag....Some are seemingly happier, some are more miserable than they were when married, and some are just pretty much in the same boat they were when married, just more broke because of it...


So very true. Leaving _does _remove a major source of stress, so you have an _opportunity _to be happier by doing so. It certainly worked for me - I was happier immediately, and took advantage of my new-found freedom to pursue my own happiness. It worked marvelously. As you say, though, many people are no better off, finances may be a new cause of stress, and some were creating their problems and leaving doesn't change who _they _are.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

An unhappy person first of all needs to be willing to try to help themselves. Some people are just never happy or they reach a point in life where they are never happy. 

If they aren't willing to try to help themselves then there's not much one person can do to fix things.

I'd certainly want to try all kinds of counseling to save a marriage if there's not just a glaring deal breaker. 

But I completely agree that staying for the kids means controlling yourselves more than it means anything else and I don't think a lot of people are capable of that or willing to do it.

My mom stayed for the kid after my other sibling was out of the house. It was a scary time when I would get nervous anytime my dad got up at night because I knew he had a gun in the closet and they had had some fights of course prior to all this.

But it's never a simple situation where the kids are concerned. For example, I did not want to move where my mother wanted to move if she left my dad. We lived on an acreage where there were open fields where I could ride my horse and dirt bike, and she wanted to move to a tract home in the suburbs. I would have had to give up my life as I knew it. 

I felt bad about it, but I did tell her at the time that I wanted to stay with that acreage. I couldn't articulate why it was so important to me at that age, but she stayed until I was out of the house. Finally when I became an adult, I articulated to her why it was so important to me at the time and that I felt bad for keeping her there. It was because being able to leave the house to get away from some of the unpleasantness when it was going on seemed absolutely essential to me at the time and was the way that I held on to my sanity. It was my escape, and those hobbies were my life.

So it's never as simple as stay for the kids or leave. Neither is ever a perfect solution. We stayed and I lived in fear part of the time. I assume she did too, though she never verbalized that to me.

She didn't want the acreage. It had a three-car garage on it that was essential to my dad's happiness because his hobby was fixing up wrecks. 

But the ironic thing is she got the acreage and lived on it when she did divorce, and he had to move. I didn't ask how that came about, but I'm sure it was about what assets there were. She did sell it just a few years after divorce and moved to a smaller town tract home where she had siblings.

She was happier after divorce. He ramped up the partying and became an extreme alcoholic with dementia.


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## TinyTbone (6 mo ago)

frenchpaddy said:


> If you were married , and for some reason things were not working out would you expect that person to stay with you for ever ,
> 
> just how far are you willing to go to stay married ?
> and how far do you expect your partner to go?
> ...


Ok, so for my wife and I both, the basic Tennant of till death do you part holds true. If there is a way to make us work, we will. After 38 years together and about a 4 month courtship, we both see the ups and downs of a life together. We are not the same people at the alter. We have grown up, had many experiences in life, had a child and matured. Silver now adorns our hair and we are starting to get wrinkles. Yet when I hold her, I see that young lady looking into my eyes as we said our vows. Saw the hopes, the happiness, the fears and worry of what the future holds.
More now than ever, she is SO worth fighting for, WE are so fighting for! She supported me through 16 and one half years of a Navy career. Dealt with so many long months alone and separated. Kept our lives going while mine went on hold. She did honor to our country and me. She has had to deal with a husband so plagued mentally by untreated ADHD that I fit the description of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. She sacrificed for us, she sacrificed her body to give me the most precious gift...a daughter! We have both made our mistakes in life and in love, yet here we are healing, learning and loving more than ever. We found one another again after so many different paths through life. She is my wife, friend, confidant, mother of our child and yes, my lover! SHE is so worth fighting for and I will continue the good fight till I die or she leaves!
Let no man put asunder what God has joined this day, 03 August, the year of our Lord, 1984.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I haven't read any of the replies and to be honest, I did not even finish reading the OP. 

But to address the title and the first few sentences of the OP in regards to staying together forever. 

IMHO the concept of "Till Death Do Us Part" and the steadfast determinism of marriage for life and damn the torpedos, has caused more pain and more suffering and misery and even outright abuse and violence and in some cases even murder, than almost any other concept in regards to relationships. 

In what other realm of human existence other than maybe slavery or prison, is it ok for people to feel forced to exist in misery and abuse without means of extricating themselves from such? People are even allowed to separate from the military before the end of their enlistment if they are willing to go through all the paperwork. 

Now I get it, people don't like getting dumped. People don't like going through divorce and separating assets and property and having access to their children on a mandated schedule. 

But to live with abject misery and despair because you exchanged rings in a church 10, 20 years prior is nuts. 

Why would someone want someone else to be with them if they did not like them and did not want to be there???

Let me ask that question again only this time really think about the answer. What circumstances would someone want someone to stay with them if that person did not like them and did not want to be with them?? Could it be because that person wants to use, exploit, manipulate and abuse them??? 

As a society we always question and scrutinize the motives of the leaver. Perhaps as a society we should scrutinize the motives of one trying to keep unhappy person where they are more.


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## 342693 (Mar 2, 2020)

TinyTbone said:


> Ok, so for my wife and I both, the basic Tennant of till death do you part holds true. If there is a way to make us work, we will. After 38 years together and about a 4 month courtship, we both see the ups and downs of a life together. We are not the same people at the alter. We have grown up, had many experiences in life, had a child and matured. Silver now adorns our hair and we are starting to get wrinkles. Yet when I hold her, I see that young lady looking into my eyes as we said our vows. Saw the hopes, the happiness, the fears and worry of what the future holds.
> More now than ever, she is SO worth fighting for, WE are so fighting for! She supported me through 16 and one half years of a Navy career. Dealt with so many long months alone and separated. Kept our lives going while mine went on hold. She did honor to our country and me. She has had to deal with a husband so plagued mentally by untreated ADHD that I fit the description of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. She sacrificed for us, she sacrificed her body to give me the most precious gift...a daughter! We have both made our mistakes in life and in love, yet here we are healing, learning and loving more than ever. We found one another again after so many different paths through life. She is my wife, friend, confidant, mother of our child and yes, my lover! SHE is so worth fighting for and I will continue the good fight till I die or she leaves!
> Let no man put asunder what God has joined this day, 03 August, the year of our Lord, 1984.


I would give you 1000 likes if I could. Your commitment to each other…regardless of what life places in your way…is an example of what a Godly marriage should be. Sadly very few will have that.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I sure don't believe anyone should stay in an abusive marriage, but as we see on here, some feel they may be worse off on their own for one reason or another, such as illness, mental problems, disability. There are no simple clean-cut solutions for a lot of people.


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## TinyTbone (6 mo ago)

SCDad01 said:


> I would give you 1000 likes if I could. Your commitment to each other…regardless of what life places in your way…is an example of what a Godly marriage should be. Sadly very few will have that.


Thank you. It's from our hearts.


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## HarryBosch (6 mo ago)

oldshirt said:


> Why would someone want someone else to be with them if they did not like them and did not want to be there???


This is why I left. An unhappy spouse, especially with children, helps no one. Why would I want to cause my wife pain by staying?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

No point going to MC if she's already done and decided.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I haven't read any of the replies and to be honest, I did not even finish reading the OP.
> 
> But to address the title and the first few sentences of the OP in regards to staying together forever.
> 
> ...


i agree with your points the one that hits me most is the one why would someone want someone to be with them if they did not like them , this very true , it is much the same as having sex with someone that is only doing it out of duty, no thinks 
as Texas said IF you don't want ME GOOD BYE


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

RandomDude said:


> No point going to MC if she's already done and decided.


 many seem to say they cheated because the marriage was dead but then they wast money going to a mc like the mc is a super man that can bring back to life a marriage when it is too far gone , 
i think if your open to going to a MC do it early and not wait until cancer has set in 

reminds me of a story a woman was telling at a party , she was driving along a country road when she saw a cow in some farmers field dead , she turned around her car and called to the farmer and asked if he owned the cow dead in the field , he said yes , she asked if he needs to call the vet , farmer told her to late unless he has pull with god


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

frenchpaddy said:


> If you were married , and for some reason things were not working out would you expect that person to stay with you for ever ,
> 
> ...........what I AM getting at is we meet and when dating we see the best side and show our best side but things change or we find out a different side or as many say when we lived together and dating the sex was every day once the ring went on it started to die , do you try fix it and at what stage do you stop flogging the dead horse ,.....


Been there done that. The absolutely happiest moment of my life was just after the wedding ceremony, when the priest took us back to his office to sign the marriage license. My wife has blessed me with two wonderful sons and many great memories. However, after about 38 years of marriage, we drifted apart emotionally and she told me she would never have sex with me again; that she had no sexual desire for me, absolutely none. She meant it.

That was a shock. I started reading all kinds of relationship books to try to figure out what happened. I got very angry at her for being a frigid ice-queen. My first realization from what I read was that if I didn't figure out what happened and I divorced my wife, I would probably make the same mistake and end up in another sexless relationship. My second realization was that I may have been part of the problem, even though I totally felt like a victim. Those two factors led me to start working on changing myself and the way I treated her. She was absolutely not into changing herself or the way she treated me.

In my readings, I learned alot. I learned from Glover about getting a life and not making any covert contracts. I also learned from him how important it was to not be codependent nor look to a lover for emotional validation. From M.W. Davis, I also learned about Getting a Life and more importantly 180's and how one person can change the dynamics of a relationship. However, it was Davide Schnarch who explained how marriage is the hardest thing to people can do and how through the length of a marriage two people are emotionally growing at different speeds and constantly pulling/pushing and being pulled by their spouse in a painful process of growth and negotiating compromises.

The amount of sex that works when two are dating is different from when they are married and have huge financial and other responsibities. The also changes when they have children. Parenting children requires a couple to adopt certain new roles, when my cause their spouse to change. When one has a mortgage, saving for retirement, and kids in college, the financial pressure to work and support the family may cause on to work so hard that the marriage suffers "for the greater immediate good." Yes marriage is very hard and it forges two people into a family unit by heat and pressure, as described in his book The Crucible. 

So, I worked on myself and on fixing what I could fix in the marriage. I then promised myself I would try to save the marriage, but after about 18 months, if my wife didn't provide me with a loving sexual relationship, I would divorce her and move on. I asked my wife to accompany me to marriage counseling with a board certified sex therapist. The Sex Therapist got my wife's attention. My wife committed to working with the Sex Therapist and our marriage was saved.

So I kind of need to check both the MC and fix things or leave after a certain time boxes. As I said been there done that. Married almost 51 years, my wife and I make love twice a week, which is much more than she wants and much less that I want, but a compromise we can both live with.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

frenchpaddy said:


> many seem to say they cheated because the marriage was dead but then they wast money going to a mc like the mc is a super man that can bring back to life a marriage when it is too far gone ,
> i think if your open to going to a MC do it early and not wait until cancer has set in
> 
> reminds me of a story a woman was telling at a party , she was driving along a country road when she saw a cow in some farmers field dead , she turned around her car and called to the farmer and asked if he owned the cow dead in the field , he said yes , she asked if he needs to call the vet , farmer told her to late unless he has pull with god


Exactly, there exists a point of no return where MC would be just a waste of money, sadly.


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## AandM (Jan 30, 2019)

Is that person Eva Green? Because if it is Eva Green, the answer is yes.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

RandomDude said:


> Exactly, there exists a point of no return where MC would be just a waste of money, sadly.


That point of no return is if there is no reciprocation or buy-in from the other party. Anyone can get in a car and show up in some MC's office and sit there for 55 minutes. 

Are they putting in any effort or even trying is the question. Without that, complete waste of time and money.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

TinyTbone said:


> Ok, so for my wife and I both, the basic Tennant of till death do you part holds true. If there is a way to make us work, we will. After 38 years together and about a 4 month courtship, we both see the ups and downs of a life together. We are not the same people at the alter. We have grown up, had many experiences in life, had a child and matured. Silver now adorns our hair and we are starting to get wrinkles. Yet when I hold her, I see that young lady looking into my eyes as we said our vows. Saw the hopes, the happiness, the fears and worry of what the future holds.
> More now than ever, she is SO worth fighting for, WE are so fighting for! She supported me through 16 and one half years of a Navy career. Dealt with so many long months alone and separated. Kept our lives going while mine went on hold. She did honor to our country and me. She has had to deal with a husband so plagued mentally by untreated ADHD that I fit the description of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. She sacrificed for us, she sacrificed her body to give me the most precious gift...a daughter! We have both made our mistakes in life and in love, yet here we are healing, learning and loving more than ever. We found one another again after so many different paths through life. She is my wife, friend, confidant, mother of our child and yes, my lover! SHE is so worth fighting for and I will continue the good fight till I die or she leaves!
> Let no man put asunder what God has joined this day, 03 August, the year of our Lord, 1984.


OK that's all lovely and would make a moving witness testimonial at Sunday church service on the day the topic was staying married for life. 

But the question was what if your partner was unhappy in the relationship and did not want to be with you. What then?

Your wife must have at least wanted to be with you even if there were some tough times. But what if she didn't? What if she was chronically unhappy in the relationship and wanted out? 

Are you going to fight tooth and nail to keep someone that doesn't like you and doesn't want to be with you in the house?

I can understand trying to see if there is something that you can do that would make them happy and want to be with you. But what if you did what they wanted and jumped through hoops and learned to do upside down backflips under water and they still didn't want to be there. Then what would you do?


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## TinyTbone (6 mo ago)

oldshirt said:


> OK that's all lovely and would make a moving witness testimonial at Sunday church service on the day the topic was staying married for life.
> 
> But the question was what if your partner was unhappy in the relationship and did not want to be with you. What then?
> 
> ...


Have no idea as I've never crossed that bridge. I do not try to let myself on what ifs and maybes. I try to be positive and look forward with hope. Life is full of ugliness and despair, pain and suffering. That's a known. I do my best today and to hopefully have a better tomorrow. All any us can really do. If it fails then I shall cope with it then. I choose not worry about things I can't control. Control is the illusion. All I can control is my emotions and reactions to my environment. As in right now, I choose to be nice.


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## TinyTbone (6 mo ago)

oldshirt said:


> That point of no return is if there is no reciprocation or buy-in from the other party. Anyone can get in a car and show up in some MC's office and sit there for 55 minutes.
> 
> Are they putting in any effort or even trying is the question. Without that, complete waste of time and money.


This sounds bitter, angry and hurtful. Yes that can be an issue. For me, it is not. I seek peace and tranquility in my life. Seen to much of the s***show the world deals to humanity. Very few of the population ever really experience the real damage of the world's most depraved, much less witness it up close. I cannot unsee things I've seen, but I can choose to do better, be better. I may never be the best in my marriage, but I choose to move forward with grace.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

Been around a long time. Nothing worse than an unhappy person who JUST WONT LEAVE. It sucks the life out of the kids and the remaining spouse, who is quite often a pretty upbeat person. 

I know a few couples into their second decades, where one is openly unhappy and always has been. But as soon as the other spouse finally agrees to let them go, wham, a new pregnancy or large purchase. And the cycle repeats. Or if the partner finally decides to pull the plug before the lazy and unhappy person does, these types can be pretty vicious during a divorce and once the left-behind spouse moves onto someone who actually loves them. The ‘I’m unhappy & don’t want you, but you may never ever be happy without me either’ types are dangerous. Especially the types who will do everything in the power to make you finally crack… yet somehow they’ll never actually get to that lawyer first. 

So I might initially try, but gee whiz, if I was that awful and my spouse was that unhappy with me I’d like them to go. I wouldn’t hate them for falling in love elsewhere and being happy without me. Good for them, it’s good for me, it’s good for the kids. 

Initially I’d like to be sure it was me they were definitely unhappy with, rather than just being an unhappy person in general, for reasons mentioned above. That’s a big factor for me too, and I’d sadly probably emotionally divorce first before letting them go, and if there were safety concerns and a pattern of certain behaviours, I’d hate to say it, but I’d stay married for a time first. 

As I said, if he’s just a general happiness-sucker and wants everyone else to be unhappy, I’d be very very worried about what he’d be like during and after a divorce. For many women, these periods are deadly (men are stronger), and for men, the psychological and emotional abuse later will be life-changing if they try to leave a wife like this. 

So it depends on the type of ‘unhappiness’. If their unhappiness showed early signs of escalating destructive behaviour, I’d build up a good support network first for myself first. Not for them. Especially if they indulged in flirting, over-spending, substances etc and then feigned unhappiness… yeah it’s not easy to deal with these types even after the end. A well-rounded and responsible person who wants to leave you? Then heartbreakingly, pls go and be happy.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

There’s a brilliant novel called ‘Stoner’ which is a great insight into a marriage like this. The man endures horrific abuse from a wife who makes it clear she doesn’t love him, but won’t leave, yet makes his daily life absolute hell.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> But the question was what if your partner was unhappy in the relationship and did not want to be with you. What then?


AS someone that admits to not haven read all the posts and said you did not read all the OP , puts you in the wrong place to say what the question was , 


oldshirt said:


> I haven't read any of the replies and to be honest, I did not even finish reading the OP.


What is interesting is, of all the people that come to TAM for advice and many of them that are stuck in a relationship, putting up with abuse and living a nightmare none of them have voted to stay in the relationship and put up with it , ( as many an Irish mother used to say you made your bed so lay in it )
as a side note Ireland has one of the lowest divorce rates in the world with only 70 per 1000 people 
France is about 50% of marriages end in divorce, 
USA has a higher rate than France even though they have the name of been puritan and holding on to very strong older values. 
France EVEN though we have the name of been liberal in out thoughts around sex , and marriage and having a mistress is a sing of success in France , the old image of the old fat guy driving his topless car with his wife and mistress in the car together or the old guy on his boat with a string of young models , 
there is still talk of young girls given up their jobs in the north to take a trip down south for the summer in the hope of meeting a rich sugar daddy,
USA rates are about 54% 
some interesting reading here for America








8 facts about love and marriage in America


The landscape of relationships in America has shifted dramatically in recent decades. Read eight facts about love and marriage in the country.




www.pewresearch.org


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

of the Multiple choose pole above it is not surprising that no one ticked they would cheat as we tend to drive off cheaters here so we would have a much lower av than the population,

NO one would stay in a bad marriage , I take that with a grain of salt 

only one believes in sex when dating  may be it is my wording that is bad there ,

Only one thinks it is important to live together before marriage , we must be all very religious on here 👼,

open marriage normal % Of people on here ,👯‍♀️👭👯‍♀️

a lot would go to MC , time I set up as a MC seems I would have a lot of potential clients 

I thank all for voting I was trying to add as many opisthions as I could 
I may have left out some


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

So Paddy are things different in France in terms of unhappy spouses staying? Or say in abusive marriages? I’m not talking about the battered wife, or wife who is ignored, neglected or mistreated (they’re usually blaming themselves and going to the extra mile to work harder). I’m talking about the mid-life crisis guy, or the never-satisfied wife who thinks she gave up her entire life for her husband and children and will make it her mission to let everyone know it. Do these spouses tend to leave in France? 

I come from two cultures, a mix of went and east where both tend to stay and try to drive the spouse to insanity rather than actually pulling the plug themselves 😂 No kidding, in the old days there was a saying ‘put her in the nuthouse and get a younger one’ or something like that. Women to this day advise younger women to look after their mental health, because it’s usually a sign the husband hates you and wants you gone… but he’s too scared of the priest and won’t divorce you first. There’s an actual word that we don’t have in English for it.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

we have a very high Muslim population in France they have very strong views on marriage that are slow to change , 

up until 2018 police did not want to know if a woman called them out , and I can't blame them as the Police when they go out drink is involved one or the two is covered in blood after taken a beating but very few will press charges and of the ones that do drop the charges next day , 

VIOLENCE WITHIN THE COUPLE
In 2020:
65 million live in France 
102 women were killed by their partner or ex-partner
23 men were killed by their partner or ex-partner
14 minor children died, killed by one of their parents in a context of violence within the couple.
82% of deaths within the couple are women. Among the women killed by their spouse, 35% were victims of previous violence by their partner. Moreover, among the 22 women who killed their partner, half, or 11 of them, had already been victims of violence by their partner.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

Thanks Paddy, strong Muslim community here too, but much different! It’s not a sin to divorce and women are better protected when they want to. So high divorce rate here for Muslim women and they don’t tend to tolerate many of the issues our white sisters do. A lot of our Muslim women here are highly educated though… I wonder if that makes a difference at all? The greatest perpetrators here of family violence, or general all-round bad marriage partners are the white middle-aged Christian males. Sorry for thread Jack. Interesting thread.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

you need to define couple , In France we TEND to group all people that get married in church and state and all people that live long time together /cohabiting , and people that have a light legal agreement as been married couples


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

Luckylucky said:


> Thanks Paddy, strong Muslim community here too, but much different! It’s not a sin to divorce and women are better protected when they want to. So high divorce rate here for Muslim women and they don’t tend to tolerate many of the issues our white sisters do. A lot of our Muslim women here are highly educated though… I wonder if that makes a difference at all? The greatest perpetrators here of family violence, or general all-round bad marriage partners are the white middle-aged Christian males. Sorry for thread Jack. Interesting thread.


your not at all thread jacking , very much on thread , 
here we get too types of Muslim , the ones that are like the ones you talk of , 'and the type I like to buy a second hand car off honest good people that respect their women 
the other type don't let the girls have the same ed they set up illegal schools to teach the way they want,
and you get girls married off at young ages some are still kids , even under the legal age ,which is 18 
and the very new legal age to have sex in France is now 15 as before we did not relay have an age , so they use this to hide ,


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

hamadryad said:


> it's kinda depressing to say this, but most of the guys my age(50's) I know that are married are fairly unhappy, but won't leave...Mostly because it's too painful and expensive to leave, and they are too tired from killing themselves over the years to bother....


Okay, but maybe they also have a sense that leaving wouldn't make it any better, because the wife isn't the root cause of the unhappiness. Maybe deep down they know that. 

As you said, part of it may be a sense of mortality, or loneliness, or pointlessness. None of those is caused by the wife's attitude.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> So, I worked on myself and on fixing what I could fix in the marriage. I then promised myself I would try to save the marriage, but after about 18 months, if my wife didn't provide me with a loving sexual relationship, I would divorce her and move on. I asked my wife to accompany me to marriage counseling with a board certified sex therapist. The Sex Therapist got my wife's attention. My wife committed to working with the Sex Therapist and our marriage was saved.


Good to hear.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Are you going to fight tooth and nail to keep someone that doesn't like you and doesn't want to be with you in the house?


Well, a fair number of posts talk about whether your partner "likes you", as if that was a constant of nature like the speed of light. There's a kind of deliberate blindness, a refusal to ask why, what's changed about me or my partner or both? This idea of "she likes me" or "she doesnt like me" is unhelpful. What _happened_? 

We all know some of the things it could be
- I gained a hundred pounds
- an old ex bf found her on facebook
- we had children
- her mother (or best friend) died
- I quit/retired from my job (or she did)
- she entered the perimenopause
- the kids grew up and left home
- whatever.

Don't just say "she doesn't like me".


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

frenchpaddy said:


> a lot would go to MC , time I set up as a MC seems I would have a lot of potential clients


Yeah, there's no shortage of work!


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

Laurentium said:


> Yeah, there's no shortage of work!


honestly your welcome to it , I would not like to have your job , but would love to know how you stay independent when both seem to go to MC in the hope to win over the pro to their side and use them as a stick to beat the other


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

[


Laurentium said:


> Okay, but maybe they also have a sense that leaving wouldn't make it any better, because the wife isn't the root cause of the unhappiness. Maybe deep down they know that.
> 
> As you said, part of it may be a sense of mortality, or loneliness, or pointlessness. None of those is caused by the wife's attitude.


Fair points, but here's the thing....

I believe a lot of their general malaise is probably linked to sexual frustration and the lack of intimacy/sex/affection....With so much time gone by, a lack of interest/attraction to/from their wives, they can't then get any of that back from the current wife...Heck, even if their testosterone levels are in the tank(which will cause a depression), getting that remedied medically will only add to the frustration as their sex drive will go up and they may feel better, but they are still "stuck" in their situation because they can't just go get it out on the street...

So then, sure, maybe it's just best they leave and see if a new love interest and some regular sex again gets them squared up, but the stigma, loss of assets, degradation of lifestyle, all seem so daunting, that they wind up just miserable with no answers to any of it....

Now you know why a lot of guys in this situation choose the path of an AP...Seems like a great solution, that can "fix" the problem without all the other pain, until they realize all the problems and drama associated with that option....nope

So they trudge on another day, and hope they get hit by a bus?? 😅


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

in Ireland Divorce was illegal when I was young so when there was reports of a husband or wife killing their partner it was referred to as Divorce Irish style, not the best way to do it most get found out I think


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## Reluctant Texan (6 mo ago)

Luckylucky said:


> Been around a long time. Nothing worse than an unhappy person who JUST WONT LEAVE. It sucks the life out of the kids and the remaining spouse, who is quite often a pretty upbeat person.
> 
> I know a few couples into their second decades, where one is openly unhappy and always has been. But as soon as the other spouse finally agrees to let them go, wham, a new pregnancy or large purchase. And the cycle repeats. Or if the partner finally decides to pull the plug before the lazy and unhappy person does, these types can be pretty vicious during a divorce and once the left-behind spouse moves onto someone who actually loves them. The ‘I’m unhappy & don’t want you, but you may never ever be happy without me either’ types are dangerous. Especially the types who will do everything in the power to make you finally crack… yet somehow they’ll never actually get to that lawyer first.
> 
> ...


I suspect in a lot of these instances we're talking about, the unhappy person* has a behavioral disorder* or other mental illness, like depression. or who knows what else? But in such cases trying to address the surface issues just lead you deeper into a cycle of abuse (emotional, mental, or physical).

*Behavioral disorders aren't readily apparent* when you meet people who have them; they can be highly functional in their professional and social lives, but completely dysfunctional in their close relationships. And they learn through trial and error how to manipulate people to get what they want... they can keep the hidden side of their personality buried until they feel they have the other party hooked and unable to walk away, then they slowly "turn the heat up" on them.

You're describing some of the features of borderline personality disorder (BPD) above. chronic unhappiness, reckless behavior, unfulfillable wants and needs, emotional abuse, paranoia, etc. And these all sound terrible, but in practice, only the "loved ones" experience them. To impartial/casual observers, BPDers can come off as very sweet and charming, so the person unfortunate enough to be married to them is usually confused by the hostility and anger they see privately.

A lot of the relationship advice you see people give here is actually quiet harmful when one partner is disordered. Their "reasonable" requests seem innocuous enough, so people assume they're made in good faith, but they quickly become means to control and manipulate the other partner.

That's why I made the "bottomless pit" analogy above. You wouldn't think trying to fill a bottomless pit is an admirable human trait; it's not faithful or loyal, just stupid or even insane. You'd think the person who recognized the futility of the task and walked away from it was logical.

As men, we hear "_Happy wife, happy life_" and so we feel duty bound to ensure she's happy and has what she needs. But if she is incapable of being happy, we're setting ourselves up for a life of misery.

I suppose women - especially if they're raised to be "caretakers" or have co-dependent personalities, have similar vulnerabilities toward men who mistreat them, and excuse the abuse as work-related stress if he's otherwise providing for the family, or view his abusive behavior as "caring" but misguided attempts at affection.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

frenchpaddy said:


> of the Multiple choose pole above it is not surprising that no one ticked they would cheat as we tend to drive off cheaters here so we would have a much lower av than the population,


If I want to cheat I will do exactly that.

I have not answered your poll, since it doesn't make much sense to me since some of your check box answers don't seem to relate to the question you posed.



> NO one would stay in a bad marriage , I take that with a grain of salt


Well I certainly wouldn't stay in a bad marriage and from experience I had no hesitation in ending my first marriage when it turned bad.



> only one believes in sex when dating  may be it is my wording that is bad there ,


What on earth does that have to do with the question "would you want someone that was unhappy to stay with you even if they are unhappy"?

That asked I think it's perfectly dandy to have sex with people regardless of their relationship status as long as it is adult and consenting, whether they have met a few minutes ago, are dating or married or whatever etc.



> Only one thinks it is important to live together before marriage , we must be all very religious on here 👼,


I'm an atheist, yet I don't think it's important for people to live together before they're married. It can be helpful for some and not helpful for others. Such things are very dependent on the who, when, and how of such things.



> open marriage normal % Of people on here ,👯‍♀️👭👯‍♀️


Open marriage is normal for some and not for some others.



> a lot would go to MC , time I set up as a MC seems I would have a lot of potential clients


I wouldn't yet some would.


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## Reluctant Texan (6 mo ago)

In my experience, marital counseling (MC) or relationship counseling, only helps if the parties are merely immature and/or need to learn some basic communication techniques - essentially how to be polite. 

The standard MC schpiel you'll hear about "_making requests, not demands_" and "_decribing how you feel, without insulting the other party_" only work in those cases above, where one or both of the parties is behaving like a toddler and needs to finally learn to communicate like an adult.

If there are other issues going on - abuse, or mental or behavioral disorder issues - MC is unlikely to be helpful. It may produce some short term improvement, but will not lead to any long term improvement in the relationship. 

For one thing, it's not really a MC's job to diagnose individual mental problems, although good MC's will usually take a party aside to let them know that something else is wrong with their spouse/partner, and help them out of an abusive situation. 

For another, disordered people are pathologically reluctant to admitting there could be something wrong with them, and will use MC sessions in bad faith to point most of the blame on the other party - or _ALL _the blame if they feel they can get away with it. And if the MC zeroes in on the dynamic, the disordered partner will simply refuse to keep going to the sessions.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

Personal said:


> I have not answered your poll, since it doesn't make much sense to me since some of your check box answers don't seem to relate to the question you posed.


 I am not stopping you from suggesting better or even make a topic that we can debate


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

frenchpaddy said:


> I am not stopping you from suggesting better or even make a topic that we can debate


Of course you aren't stopping me, since you are not in a position that affords you that option. That said if you would like me to start a topic for you to debate, please feel free to let me know what you would like the subject of that topic to be.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Yes. This is all pretty much true (and I speak as an MC): 



Reluctant Texan said:


> In my experience, marital counseling (MC) or relationship counseling, only helps if the parties are merely immature and/or need to learn some basic communication techniques - essentially how to be polite.


And "polite" includes listening... when people hear "communication" they tend to forget about the listening half of it.



> The standard MC schpiel you'll hear about "_making requests, not demands_" and "_describing how you feel, without insulting the other party_" only work in those cases above, where one or both of the parties is behaving like a toddler and needs to finally learn to communicate like an adult.


Fortunately for my business, this is a common situation.



> If there are other issues going on - abuse, or mental or behavioral disorder issues - MC is unlikely to be helpful.


This is true. We are trained to spot those things. I'd add "addiction" to your list. 



> For one thing, it's not really a MC's job to diagnose individual mental problems, although good MC's will usually take a party aside to let them know that something else is wrong with their spouse/partner, and help them out of an abusive situation.


I think we have an ethical obligation to try to do that. However, it's not unusual that where one partner has a personality disorder, the other also has some kind of corresponding impairment. Well-balanced healthy people don't usually marry people with PDs. (No offence to anyone here who has done so....)



> For another, disordered people are pathologically reluctant to admitting there could be something wrong with them, and will use MC sessions in bad faith to point most of the blame on the other party - or _ALL _the blame if they feel they can get away with it. And if the MC zeroes in on the dynamic, the disordered partner will simply refuse to keep going to the sessions.


Have you done this for a living? Yes, they quickly stop attending.


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## Reluctant Texan (6 mo ago)

Laurentium said:


> I think we have an ethical obligation to try to do that. However, it's not unusual that where one partner has a personality disorder, the other also has some kind of corresponding impairment. Well-balanced healthy people don't usually marry people with PDs. (No offence to anyone here who has done so....)


None taken!



Laurentium said:


> Have you done this for a living? Yes, they quickly stop attending.


We saw three different MC's:

The first was "average," I suppose. He helped calm things down, but refused to acknowledge there might be deeper underlying issues going on. My ex-wife had made some completely unfounded allegations of abuse against some of my family members, and when pressed would walk them back, but remain hostile and convinced I was "_putting them ahead of her in my life_" He said that was "out-of-line" but not evidence of anything more serious. 

He also allowed her to upend sessions by screaming; he seemed to think she was just immature, maybe, and I could improve things by being a better partner. He put stock in her claims that since she was an immigrant and all alone in this country (ignoring me, my family, our child together, all her friends here, etc.) she was under a lot of stress. I initially acknowledged that she had a point too, but enough inconsistencies in her behavior and demands eventually lead me to realize there was more going on there... paranoid thoughts, openly lying, wild mood swings or excessive reactions to minor slights or annoyances, etc.

the second MC we saw was lousy and openly unprofessional; he had seen my ex-wife for individual counseling prior to MC, but insisted this was not a conflict of interest & he could see us both together. He allowed her to scream & interrupt me during the sessions, and sent me a PDF of the book on marital counseling he was writing and asked me to edit it for him!!!

The third called my ex-wife out and would question her statements further, specifically vague statements like "he doesn't love me enough." On either our second or third session, my ex-wife started arguing with the MC, and then screaming at her. The MC put her pen down and rolled her eyes, like "you're not paying me enough to sit through this."

I almost started laughing, thinking "Yeah, it's no fun being around her, is it?"

My ex-wife stormed out of the office and said she was never going back to sessions there.


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## Reluctant Texan (6 mo ago)

Laurentium said:


> ...
> Fortunately for my business, this is a common situation.
> ...


Ha. Yeah, I imagine there's no shortage of business. Also, I'm not denigrating the profession... I think it's extremely important, but like any other profession, has a lot of lousy members & needs to produce better professionals. 

My current partner and I are going through some BS because of financial issues and setting expectations accordingly, on top of the added stress of being new parents together. We're working through things (i.e. she's nothing like my ex-
wife in this regard), but it's been tough. 

A couple months ago when things were worse, we agreed we probably needed help, but could not find an MC that was seeing new patients. I eventually reached out to the 3rd MC I had seen with my ex-wife, asking if she could recommend someone locally who could do nights or weekends, and she blurted out that it's impossible right now, and "_the whole country is basically going through a mental health crisis._"


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

an old friend of my father his wife went to a MC slash shrink she started talking and filled the guy up with a lot of bull about how bad a husband she had was , that he was tight ( her idea of running the house as she was stay at home house wife was dump everything in the bedroom each spring and change all because this year the color was green , next year it could be orange so the green had to be dumped ) 
the husband was called in a week later and got a grueling about how he beats his wife , still think of the night he called after the meeting with tears in his eyes ,telling the story


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## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

What matters more to you, integrity or Disney Romance? Everything being equal, no abuse, no adulterous dalliances etc. Hmm.

Feelings are "fleeting" or at least variable, which one of us has not gone through a period of "not being happy" with out SO's. I know I have, I know she has and I know we both will again. Steering ones life based on feelings is folly and people ending their marriages (a solemn oath) based on "I'm not Happy" lack integrity.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Dictum Veritas said:


> Steering ones life based on feelings is folly and people ending their marriages (a solemn oath) based on "I'm not Happy" lack integrity.


I ended my first marriage because I wasn’t happy.

That said considering what you have written, how on earth do you think I lack integrity for ending that marriage? When I wasn’t happy about my ex-wife cheating on me.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

No, I like my partners to suffer.


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## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

Personal said:


> I ended my first marriage because I wasn’t happy.
> 
> That said considering what you have written, how on earth do you think I lack integrity for ending that marriage? When I wasn’t happy about my ex-wife cheating on me.


Read my comment again.


Dictum Veritas said:


> What matters more to you, integrity or Disney Romance? Everything being equal, no abuse, *no adulterous dalliances* etc. Hmm.


That kind of negates the premise of what you said.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Dictum Veritas said:


> That kind of negates the premise of what you said.


Which likewise applies to what you wrote, as a consequence of its inherent contradiction. Since recalling from experience, my reaction and perhaps most (yet certainly many) peoples reaction, to sexual infidelity from a spouse is deeply entrenched with feelings. Like surprise, disgust loathing and anger inclusive of not being happy about it.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> No, I like my partners to suffer.


 Well it is said, that misery loves company.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Personal said:


> Well it is said, that misery loves company.


QFT


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## Layla35 (Feb 14, 2021)

that’s really how it is too !


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

TinyTbone said:


> Have no idea as I've never crossed that bridge. I do not try to let myself on what ifs and maybes. I try to be positive and look forward with hope. Life is full of ugliness and despair, pain and suffering. That's a known. I do my best today and to hopefully have a better tomorrow. All any us can really do. If it fails then I shall cope with it then. I choose not worry about things I can't control. Control is the illusion. All I can control is my emotions and reactions to my environment. As in right now, I choose to be nice.


You need to be realistic.


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