# Wife's Midlife Crisis....what do i do?



## Garry2012

Ok, where do i start. I have been married for 13 years. My wife and i have had a very loving relationship up until the last couple of years. She turned 40, and was vocally upset by getting "old" saying "i only have 10 years of looking good left". Since then she has changed her clothing some, had a boob job and tummy tuck, got collagen in her lips and face etc. Then she opened up a facebook account and started flirting openly. We have fought alot about that since she opened it. Since i have confronted her with the flirting, just just hid it all, and added an instant messenger to her account. She became "best friends" with a married male, and they have spent numerous hours on the phone, though she has recently said they dont talk much, there were times when they talked for alot (6 hours over two weeks). she has also lightly flirted with him in front of me. In the last year, she has been depressed, complaining alot about the daily "grind" of taking care of the kids, not getting out to do anything (she is a stay at home mom)--often saying that she is jealous of her friend who has a husband who doesnt care where she is, and no kids at home so her friend can do whatever she wants. Last year, she started texting a single guy, including on Xmas morning while I was playing with the kids and setting up their toys. I later confronted her over a conversation where her female best friend said "something is so going to happen between you two" (of the single man). She says that was nothing and i am just overly jealous and controlling. Yet, another warning sign, and she continued to text him for another few months. So, this year, in July, something snapped, we just stopped talking for a couple weeks, and when i confronted her, she laid into me about never loving her, and specifically saying that when we broke up (by letter--my bad) 15 years ago when we were dating, it really hurt her and now, after 13 years of marriage, she wants to separate. She refuses to see any counceling,or admit that this is a MLC, i tell her i love her and this is hearbreaking and she basically says she is sad, but needs to get away. I dont think she has any good reason so leave, but do have a theory. My theory is that she has been flirting on facebook, and the guys have been hitting on her alot, and she wants to live like she is 25 again. I represent nothing more than a boring life, and she wants more. I am not sure if she is/has cheated, but did notice two notes that she had: one was a grocery list with KY listed (im sure she will say it was some sort of moisture issue), and a gophone activation number (seems to be hiding communication again). I am contemplating just filing for divorce--I cant change the past, and after 13 years of a loving relationship, cant imagine any way to convince her that i do love her at this point. Advice?


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## MrK

Let her go. She's gone.


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## Pault

Oh Dear that is a real cr*p situation to be in.

It appears that your W has been making a division and Im sad to say lying about, hiding clear attempts to orchestrate an affir of some kind. You say she has made mention of a seperation be cause its a MLC - Thats another phrase for I want to be away from you where I can openly scre around with anyone I like. You say shes a stay at home mum. OK that is NO excuse there are millions across the world that do that and dont go down the road of cosmetic enhancement and them set up secret phone accounts, use facebook (damn that thing to hell) to seek out guys and hide new phones. I guess some instant action is needed as at present you are funding this so
Put a stop on her debit/creit cards. Block all phone charges to your account except one you control. Drop the internet line, Check your bank account for payments to another account that she may have set up to clean payments through. Get some much needed legal advice. Then stop her bringing the other guy (as far as you know him) in to your circle - shes going to do this andnappears to have been at it for a while so suddenly having her funding for fun cut will have effect. Then as she suggest that she wants the divorce tell her its her to move out and then lock changing time - soon she will need to get a job, work the hours to fund the fun time andnthen see if she has the time and stamina to fool about when she has to look after an apartment somewhere, pay for utilities, phone, car, food etc. Kids come first and they can stay with you as she is off fooling about - its tough on kids in this situation. 

You will fell like awful doing this but if you think it through she presently has the best of both worlds andn has had you pay for the life shes had to date. Now she wants a single life... let her taste it as she will be cheating and the wear and tear on you if she is in your homw will be incredably stressful and cause great anxiety. Im sure some of the other guys will coe uo with more points to help but YOU MUST ACT SOON and not tell her anything your doing as she will set up contingencies to cover it. That will make it even more difficult for you to cope. Oh, consider a STI check soon as well as she cold well be using the KY with someone else


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## AFEH

By telling her you love her and all that I think you are doing what comes intuitively and naturally. But it has the opposite effect to that which you want to happen in that instead of bringing her closer to you it pushes her further away from you.

Not the least because it makes you look a weak man in her eyes and a weak is neither attractive or desirable.


I think you are far better telling her that you recognise she’s an adult and is very clear with what she wants to do with her life. Tell her that you love her but you will not hold her back from seeking the type of life and happiness she wants.



Now take the lead (away from her) and get the separation and divorce arrangements going, what the financials will be, what the grounds for the divorce are etc.

Tell her that you will now detach emotionally from her such that you start your emotional separation and that communications between the two of you will be about the children and “business”. Then start detaching financially, take her off of the bank accounts, cancel her cards and take total control of all bill payments etc. Give her some petty cash each week, treat the finances like a business from now on.

This is called doing the 180. The idea here is to drop her in the deep end of her single life as quickly as you possibly can. Don’t let her tip toe into the shallow end and slowly work her way into deeper water. Put her in deeper water as soon possible.

Really do get ready to let her go. Maybe, just maybe you’ll knock some sense into her. If you do and she wants back in, have your boundaries (conditions) ready. MC, go on a marriage course, remorseful behaviour that sort of thing.


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## hubbyfetish

I agree that you must act soon. The sooner you act the sooner you can start to cope with everything and get your life back on track.

This sounds like a case of people thinking the "grass is greenier". As AFEH said, this may know some since into her. And if that is something that you want, BOUNDARIES must be set.


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## Toffer

This isn't an MLC

This is/are affairs.

You can't change the locks on her! Talk to a lwayer today to find out your rights but do take half the money in any joint accounts and move it to an account with only your name on it

Work on hard evidence gathering to include:

-VAR in car under front seat 
-Keylogger on PC
-Copy of cell phone records

FILE, FILE, FILE!


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## Kasler

Never let them get all the plastic surgery crap. Its just them upping their sex rank so they can have their exit affair.


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## Emerald

I am so sick of hearing about SAHM's complaining about their "boring" lives. I would have given anything to be able to stay home & raise by daughters instead of having to work full time.

Who financed all of her plastic surgery? Your wife is an entitled, ungrateful princess who is using you for your money & is not a good role model for your children.

Again, others will chime in about the cheating.....sigh....


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## Garry2012

Hard to imagine, but i guess if i hear it enough i will agree. A year ago, she cried at my dad's funeral at the thought of losing me....now she wants out. I got very similiar advice from another blog as well, but i guess those 15 people weren't enough for me. These are the times that try men's souls i guess.

I did detach emotionally since July, we have barely talked and been essentially "in house" separated. But when we talked two weeks ago, she said she still doesnt know what she wants..translation " i want out and dont know how to tell you." so i forced it and said i need to know, and she said she wanted a trial separation. I said, after 13 years, another 1 year of me telling you i love you wont make a difference. I was going to file next spring, but the advice i keep getting is to file now. I think she wants to wait for the holidays for the kids--which my world revolves around, so she knows im partial to anything for them. And the fact that her reasons for leaving me just wont fly with her whole family, then know me and us as a couple way too much--she will look like a dumba$$.


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## underwater2010

I am sorry, but she checked out a long time ago. I believe that you have let to much time pass already. I would have divorce papers drawn up. When presented with them she will quit what she is doing or leave. I place my money on her leaving. I am so sorry you find yourself here.


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## Garry2012

The sad part Emerald, is that SHE wanted to be the SAHM to raise our kids, she hated work. Now, she *****es and complains that she is bored bored bored, and eludes to it being my fault. I told her i would love to stay home but....that goes nowhere.


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## A Bit Much

I'd put her ass out and change the locks. She wouldn't get back in unless she brought cops with her and they made me do it (it's not actually legal to put people out).

She wants to act like a rebellious teen (one with no income no less) then she can do it elsewhere. I wouldn't stand to sit there and have her disrespect me right in my face.


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## Emerald

Garry2012 said:


> The sad part Emerald, is that SHE wanted to be the SAHM to raise our kids, she hated work. Now, she *****es and complains that she is bored bored bored, and eludes to it being my fault. I told her i would love to stay home but....that goes nowhere.


Right. Let the princess go & find yourself a nice woman.

Sucks that you will have to pay her alimony though.


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## A Bit Much

Oh and the "I don't know what I want" is translation for I'm not done squirreling enough money away to get out. She doesn't work. Whos paying the bills? Thats right, YOU are. She hasn't secured another sponsor yet so she's still working on it and needs to string you along to do it. It's a stall tactic.

To not seek any type of counseling is the biggest red flag there is. She's interested in who-ering around and counseling will only guilt her into doing what's right. She's a married woman with kids to raise. She doesn't want anyone telling her she's wrong.


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## AFEH

Garry2012 said:


> Hard to imagine, but i guess if i hear it enough i will agree. A year ago, she cried at my dad's funeral at the thought of losing me....now she wants out. I got very similiar advice from another blog as well, but i guess those 15 people weren't enough for me. These are the times that try men's souls i guess.
> 
> I did detach emotionally since July, we have barely talked and been essentially "in house" separated. But when we talked two weeks ago, she said she still doesnt know what she wants..translation " i want out and dont know how to tell you." so i forced it and said i need to know, and *she said she wanted a trial separation.* I said, after 13 years, another 1 year of me telling you i love you wont make a difference. I was going to file next spring, but the advice i keep getting is to file now. I think she wants to wait for the holidays for the kids--which my world revolves around, so she knows im partial to anything for them. And the fact that her reasons for leaving me just wont fly with her whole family, then know me and us as a couple way too much--she will look like a dumba$$.


That’s code for “I’m going to play and look around all the while keeping you as my back-up plan, my Plan B just in case things don’t work out”.


And if you go along with the “trial separation” she keeps, maintains control of the situation.

Just tell her enough is enough, you’re ending it. That way you take control (very strong and attractive masculine traits) and you dictate the terms should she want back in.


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## anchorwatch

AFEH said:


> That’s code for “I’m going to play and look around all the while keeping you as my back-up plan, my Plan B just in case things don’t work out”.
> 
> 
> And if you go along with the “trial separation” she keeps, maintains control of the situation.
> 
> Just tell her enough is enough, you’re ending it. That way you take control (very strong and attractive masculine traits) and you dictate the terms should she want back in.


Gary, pay heed to this advice. You have let this go on too long and don't have any other options. Do not wait any longer for her to see if she needs you as a back up plan. Respect yourself. Good luck, to you.


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## Garry2012

A Bit Much said:


> Oh and the "I don't know what I want" is translation for I'm not done squirreling enough money away to get out. She doesn't work. Whos paying the bills? Thats right, YOU are. She hasn't secured another sponsor yet so she's still working on it and needs to string you along to do it. It's a stall tactic.
> 
> To not seek any type of counseling is the biggest red flag there is. She's interested in who-ering around and counseling will only guilt her into doing what's right. She's a married woman with kids to raise. She doesn't want anyone telling her she's wrong.


yeah i agree, she doesnt want help, actually when i have brought up seeking professional help she gets offended that i think she needs help. When i first brought it up, she actually said "if i go, i dont want all this to be my fault". I have tried to be the nice guy, and yes, i do love her--so this is and will continue to be tough, but realized that the "i dont know what i want" was a stalling deal. While if wont be my problem I have had a GF go through all this many years ago, almost a carbon copy of events, and have pointed out that in a couple years, she will be so sad she blew this up....but as expected...that just falls on deaf ears.

I appreciate the support. I have basically no family to lean on (hers i suspect will support me, though they are 200 miles away). 

For 2 years i have been told i am a jealous maniac, not letting her talk to guys on facebook, being jealous about her male friend, or being a jerk when i get mad when she goes to a hobby group meeting from 6-10, then wants to go out with the group for drinks until midnight. I know she needs to get out, its hard to be in the house everyday all day. Things just didnt seem right.


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## A Bit Much

Stop funding her nonsense and let her family in on her behavior and proclaimations. You sir have nothing to lose, but she on the other hand has much to lose... but it's her choice right now.


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## the guy

So your paying the bill for her hidden phone?

Or did she pawn off her wedding ring?

Let me guess your also paying for the internet and computor she is using?

Sorry man but its time to make her face reality and cut her off, stop all joint accounts and seperate funds. 

You already gave her what she wanted emotionally (distance) which is great, but its time to step it up a notch and really show her what she is asking for.......her independence and with that come her pulling her own wieght and paying some bills.

Sure the kids need internet, thats why computers and routors have passwords, so you can lock it down when the cheating wife needs it and unlock for the kids when they need to go online.... sometimes the kids don't need the routor on but just to type homework up.

So show her the tough love that is not controlling but protecting your family. She will always have the control to accept this protection or not, she also has the choice to leave also.

Hell I'd ask her to leave, she may not but its the statement that tells her you will not tolorate sharing her like whats her names husband.

There are plenty of single dads out there that pull it off.

Exposure also helps make the affair inconvienent and uncomfortable, thats why waywards get so pissed off when the betrayed do it.

Its time to let her single boyfriend pay her way.....ya right! as soon as your wife becomes OM problem he will drop her like a rock, especially when you tell his parents that he is with a very married women with kids and a husband that want their support for the marriage.

Thats the thing with exposure...your not being a tattle tale but looking for support. Alway expose the affair by asking others for "support" for your marriage....it doesn't make you out to be the bad guy who is jealous, but a man trying to protect his marriage.

She is in the fog, there is not one guy she will meet that will take care of her in another 30-35 years like you will. She just doesn't see it yet, cause in my opinion she hasn't seen the consequences of what she is about to lose.


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## Garry2012

Yeah she is certainly in a fog. I was the guy that did anything she wantedt to make her happy...but now i never loved and and hurt her so much 15 years ago that NOW she need out. She doesnt see it, and i expect wont for a year or two, then reality will hit...sadly.


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## A Bit Much

The only way she'll get a clue is if she stopped all contact with anyone who is not for your marriage succeeding. Random dudes on FB aren't going to do it. Maybe her family will do it, but a lot of times women in these situations feel entitled to carry on the way they do. And countless times theres a husband like you sitting in the background going WTF happened here? You are no saint I'm sure, but THIS isn't how your marriage should end if it's to end at all.


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## Garry2012

Yeah, she feels entitled for sure....that is right on target...and im the SOB for not letting her. Im not saint, but i agree, she has disrespected me for 2 years...and doesnt care. Heck, based on our "text war" yesterday, doenst care about my feelings AT ALL and seemingly no interest in saving us, so while painful, is very telling of her determination to end this, for whatever reason she has in store. Will be very interesting to see how her family responds when i tell them her reasons...and then the issues over the past couple years.


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## Toffer

Garry,

One more thing....Be sure she doesn't talk YOU into moving out of the marital home! In a divorce sometimes this is looked at as abandonment!

Get Legal advice ASAP


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## AFEH

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah, she feels entitled for sure....that is right on target...and im the SOB for not letting her. Im not saint, but i agree, she has disrespected me for 2 years...and doesnt care. Heck, based on our "text war" yesterday, doenst care about my feelings AT ALL and seemingly no interest in saving us, so while painful, is very telling of her determination to end this, for whatever reason she has in store. *Will be very interesting to see how her family responds when i tell them her reasons...and then the issues over the past couple years.*


That’s weak. That’s very very weak. It will sound like you’re beatching, whimpering even. Poor poor me.


But not only is it very weak it will also hurt and further alienate your wife. You know that woman you say you are so very much in love with. And it may well also have the effect of alienating your wife’s family from you.

All it will do is put a great deal more distance between the two of you and drive yet more wedges in such that any hope of a reconciliation down the line flies right out the window.


What you have in front of you is “Man’s Business”. This is nobody else’s business but yours, yours to get sorted by yourself and without any help from anybody else.


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## Garry2012

Toffer, I totally agree and at this point have her verbal/tentative agreement that this is what she wants so SHE moves out. I want the house, she can see what its like in a small apartment alone (or with her bf). 

AFEH, No im not going to her family for anything other than taking in the shock on their faces. These blog posts have helped me realize how pathetic her lines are, so it will be interesing, and funny at some point, when they just cant connect the dots she puts out...cause they cant.


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## KathyBatesel

Garry2012 said:


> Ok, where do i start. I have been married for 13 years. My wife and i have had a very loving relationship up until the last couple of years. She turned 40, and was vocally upset by getting "old" saying "i only have 10 years of looking good left". Since then she has changed her clothing some, had a boob job and tummy tuck, got collagen in her lips and face etc. Then she opened up a facebook account and started flirting openly. We have fought alot about that since she opened it. Since i have confronted her with the flirting, just just hid it all, and added an instant messenger to her account. She became "best friends" with a married male, and they have spent numerous hours on the phone, though she has recently said they dont talk much, there were times when they talked for alot (6 hours over two weeks). she has also lightly flirted with him in front of me. In the last year, she has been depressed, complaining alot about the daily "grind" of taking care of the kids, not getting out to do anything (she is a stay at home mom)--often saying that she is jealous of her friend who has a husband who doesnt care where she is, and no kids at home so her friend can do whatever she wants. Last year, she started texting a single guy, including on Xmas morning while I was playing with the kids and setting up their toys. I later confronted her over a conversation where her female best friend said "something is so going to happen between you two" (of the single man). She says that was nothing and i am just overly jealous and controlling. Yet, another warning sign, and she continued to text him for another few months. So, this year, in July, something snapped, we just stopped talking for a couple weeks, and when i confronted her, she laid into me about never loving her, and specifically saying that when we broke up (by letter--my bad) 15 years ago when we were dating, it really hurt her and now, after 13 years of marriage, she wants to separate. She refuses to see any counceling,or admit that this is a MLC, i tell her i love her and this is hearbreaking and she basically says she is sad, but needs to get away. I dont think she has any good reason so leave, but do have a theory. My theory is that she has been flirting on facebook, and the guys have been hitting on her alot, and she wants to live like she is 25 again. I represent nothing more than a boring life, and she wants more. I am not sure if she is/has cheated, but did notice two notes that she had: one was a grocery list with KY listed (im sure she will say it was some sort of moisture issue), and a gophone activation number (seems to be hiding communication again). I am contemplating just filing for divorce--I cant change the past, and after 13 years of a loving relationship, cant imagine any way to convince her that i do love her at this point. Advice?


I haven't read replies, at least not yet, but my advice is this: 

Find out if she'd be willing to undergo an evaluation for hormone imbalances. If she agrees, find a clinic that specializes in menopause issues. Most general practitioners don't understand hormone tests well enough to treat it effectively. Some will even say that such tests are useless, but the women who do get treatment report a HUGE difference in how they feel, how much energy they have, and how satisfied they are with their lives.

I think she sounds like she's going through perimenopause. This can last for years, and if she won't get treatment, you'll continue to see destructive behaviors that interfere with your marriage. If she won't get treatment, consider letting her go. Chances are she'll want to come back later when she realizes that all the dissatisfaction with her life is going to follow her, but that's another bridge that can be crossed when you come to it.


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## Garry2012

Actually she has said that she is going through "the change" alot. She gets hot flashes etc. That could be it, but i thought she got tested for hormones and was fine, may have been a year or so ago.


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## Emerald

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah she is certainly in a fog. I was the guy that did anything she wantedt to make her happy...but now i never loved and and hurt her so much 15 years ago that NOW she need out. She doesnt see it, and i expect wont for a year or two, then reality will hit...sadly.


That is called "re-writing the marital history" to justify her inappropriate behaviors. She may flip if you plan to divorce her, so maybe start documenting or voice record all of her false claims about you.

I feel so bad for you. You sound like a great guy who loves his wife & family. This is NOT your fault & you are not a "jealous maniac" like she claims.

If you read these forums, you will see many married people that have NO opposite sex friends. Some do appropriately. Please read the book "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass.


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## the guy

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah she is certainly in a fog. I was the guy that did anything she wantedt to make her happy...but now i never loved and and hurt her so much 15 years ago that NOW she need out. She doesnt see it, and i expect wont for a year or two, then reality will hit...sadly.


If you make a plan and work this plan with a lawyer your oldlady may come around sooner then that.

In short the sooner she fases consequences the sooner she will see "some" reality to her choices.

On a side note here, its alot easier to behave the way she is by rewriting history...it lessens the quilt.

Again if she wants help her pack with a smile on your face = be positive and confident that you can let her go and start giving her a taste of things to come.


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## the guy

There is no logic when it comes to affairs, so trying to see this and rationalize with her worthless, but giving her a taste of what her future will be like will get her to think twice.

Start working on your attraction level, again another tactic in getting her second guess her choices. Lets face it women like confident men.


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## Garry2012

Im ok with friends, its just when your gut tells you something isnt right, thats when i started getting "jealous". Funny, 12 years of our marriage i was told that "men and women cannot be friends". Thus I never had any female friends. Now, its ok....and ok to be "best friends"...that alone sets off my gut. 

Ill bounce back, im just in shock i guess. My kids come first, and they need a dad, so my time of self pity can only last so long. As has been noted, a divorce is a death of sorts, i need to grieve...and then move on with the good memories...and support and love for my kids.


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## ronin5573

Garry2012 said:


> Im ok with friends, its just when your gut tells you something isnt right, thats when i started getting "jealous". Funny, 12 years of our marriage i was told that "men and women cannot be friends". Thus I never had any female friends. Now, its ok....and ok to be "best friends"...that alone sets off my gut.
> 
> Ill bounce back, im just in shock i guess. My kids come first, and they need a dad, so my time of self pity can only last so long. As has been noted, a divorce is a death of sorts, i need to grieve...and then move on with the good memories...and support and love for my kids.


Your way ahead of this situation then you realize. I went through the same thing for 2 months before I realized it was a MLC. I think it is. Funny thing about it all is mine was after 13 years of marriage also. Screw the 10 year itch, its 13. Some women come out of it some dont. Mine didnt and all I could do is really come to grips with it and take care of myself and my kids. The best thing you can do is move on. If you chase her she will only run faster away.


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## Emerald

Even if you file for divorce, you do not have to finalize it until you are ready.


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## Shaggy

She's having at least one affair, that much is certain. She's got the boob job, the affair phone, the my husband is the source of all my problems, basically she's got the affair life down pat.

Time for you to shake it up,

I recommend getting VARs and place them in her car , in your bedroom, and where ever she would be sitting talking on the phone when you are out.

Also put a GPS tracker on her car.

It shouldn't take too long to find out when and where and with whom she s cheating.

I then recommend a three prong approach, all done on the same day:

1. Cut off her access to money. Move your paycheck to a separate account and cancel joint credit cards

2. Exposé the affair to the OM wife, and your immediate friends/family.

3. Fine for divorce, have her served.

The above might be enough to shock her to end the cheating and work on the marriage, but its a long shot. She's been working hard to be attractive to other men, and even went under the knife to get the boob job to attract them, so she's very determined to cheat.


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## Gunthar

Wow, sorry to hear and this is very similar to what I started going thru this summer......and am continuing to go thru now:

Wife:
--Midlife crisis
--EAs
--Crash program of weight loss and trying to look good
--Wanted to separate
--Dreaming of a better life.....without me......(I knew thru snooping)

Well...after several battles.....after me doing a 180, doing a MAP, advice from TAM, reading up on nice-guy syndrome, reading MMSLP, spying on her finding key information on what she was doing, I have changed my life around for the better as I understand now what she was doing and what I need to do for myself. Let me suggest you focus on yourself now.

You cannot change what she is thinking and doing directly. What others suggested may bring her back.....or better prepare you for a divorce.

I vote to:

--spy to better understand her motives
--go 180
--Work on YOURSELF...get in shape, go out with the buddies, do manly things. The worst thing you can do is lay around and think about the situation.
--Up your sex rank (assuming you may still want to stay married to her)
--Do NOT chase her or be mr. niceguy to her...it will only push her away further. Be good to her but do not crowd her or shower her with cr$p.
--file for divorce knowing you can always retract if she.....

There is a chance she may see you in a different light as well as......wow, she may realize life is not so bad with you as well as she could lose everything for her selfish needs (without even trying to make it work).

Good luck!


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## Bobby5000

First, while you say you love her, you have not tried to address her concerns. She is at home with two children and bored and jealous of her friend's exciting lives. 

Can you plan a trip, perhaps to Paris, Venice. Do something exciting. Don't mention money as a concdern because divorce lawyers will go through your savings, and spend 10 times as much as any trip. 

(where x = family savings, and y funds available through credit, 2xy is the expected amount of fees, with each lawyer initially telling the client what he or she wants to hear and later explaining how sad the outcome is because of the other side and his/her lawyer's unreasonableness and intractability). 

That said, become a little more independent. Get some new clothes and improve your appearance. Get in shape. While you should display an interest in her life, you have to be careful, because women are frequently impressed by what they can't have and others desire. Rock stars have hundreds if not thousands of women because as women see others being attracted to him, they become likewise. 

That's also why so many women fall in love with married men, the other woman's desire for him and his confidence increases his attractiveness. 

So try the divergent paths, of making your marriage and life more exciting and making yourself more desirable. 

If it fails, then you gave it your best shot. Not infrequently, men and women in these situations disrupt their marriages, and after failing in their new lives, want their partner back, or find a new spouse remarkably similar to the old one.


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## Garry2012

Thank you for all the advice. I took the 180 approach to the next level this weekend, though i try to be cordial, i was certainly cold and emotionally detached. She noticed the change--she said for the first time that she does not want a divorce and that she "still loves me". Im not fooled by this nonsense--she is seeing the change in me and is now a little scared i think. I will meet with a divorce attny this week and start planning. I still think her strategy is to get me look like the "bad guy" by filing, which i guess is fine. 

Bobby, we are past the "take a trip together" phase, we traveled this summer and she didnt even talk to me. I cant even get her to talk to me about what the heck is going on now, she just doesn't want to about us and the path ahead. My plan is to take everyones advice. She wants a "trial separation", but its been 6 months and her attitude has not changed towards me at all, what is another year going to do? Answer, nothing. I think i will "trial separate" for a term of 12 months--after I file, which will give her 12 months to figure out if this is what she/I want, or we finalize the divorce and move on with our lives.


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## Toffer

Garry,

Good plan but talk to the lawyer first and see what you have to do to go from seperation to divorce so you don't waste any more time than you have to.

MLC or affair, it doesn't matter. She treating you with disrespect, playing you for a fool and totally disreagrding your feelings and emotions. You don't do these kind of things to someone you've sworn to love and cherish and "forsake all others". Hel1, you don't do these things to a casual aquintance!


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## RDL

Read the following materials ASAP:

Infidelity, Cheating Wives - Women's Infidelity Michelle Langley - Women's Infidelity

and Married Man's sex life primer by Athol Kay

Come back with feedback once you read them.


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## Garry2012

Exactly Toffer. If, and I say If, her true reason for separating is because i was a jerk while we dated 15 years ago ( no i dont believe that for a second--but thats her line), then what in the heck is going to change in a year? Nothing. I have wasted enough time is right. And your right, doesnt matter, she has been hiding communication with men for 2 years (and i think still is), and made zero effort to even try to talk or work it through with me. Like someone said, i need to quit wasting my breath on her and save it for my kids.


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## Garry2012

Wow...Alex/Freedomcorp, Women's Infidelity was so right on target it's scary. I have experienced my wife going through ALOT of those things. We are definately in the "im not sure what i want" phase, and i suspect an affair, though dont have the time or a good location (she talks all over the house) to put a VAR in and catch her...nor the time to listen to the 8 hours of recordings a day. 

Very interesting reading. When the time comes, and i suspect it will be soon, i would like like to give her a highlighted version of this reading and let her read it. She will deny ANY affair reference, as i guess we all would, but its clear to me she has had emotional affairs at the least.


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## RDL

I'm glad you took the first step and read the synopsis. 
I suggest you read this for yourself as you are the only person you have control over. If she reads it would be a huge step towards a positive resolution however in many cases the woman at this stage is very resistant.

Please go and read the full material, both books and come back with feedback.


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## Garry2012

Yeah i agree, she will say the information is all lies and doesn't apply to her at all, but it is dead on.


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## See_Listen_Love

Garry2012 said:


> Toffer, I totally agree and at this point *have her verbal/tentative agreement* that this *is what she wants* so SHE moves out. I want the house, *she can see* what its like in a small apartment alone (or with her bf).
> 
> AFEH, No im not going to her family for *anything other* than taking in the shock on their faces. These blog posts have helped me *realize how pathetic her lines are,* so *it will be interesing, and funny* at some point, when *they just cant connect the dots* she puts out...cause they cant.


More weak talk, these are the soft words of a person who is letting himself be used as a doormat, thank you very much for stepping on me....

Man up, stop whining.


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## TRy

Garry2012 said:


> Wow...Alex/Freedomcorp, Women's Infidelity was so right on target it's scary. I have experienced my wife going through ALOT of those things.


 A quote from Women's Infidelity that seems to apply to you is "They tell their husbands that time apart is the only hope of improving their current situation. Women at this stage want to free themselves of the restrictions of marriage and spend more time with their lovers." Many cheaters believe that separation gives them the moral right to cheat and will tell their spouses that since they were separated they did nothing wrong. This is not true. You are married until you are divorced. The legal system created the separation process to allow married people a chance to stay married as they work on their marraige, not to give them a chance to explore their options with others. Cheaters will misuse separation to cake eat and to keep spouses as a back up plan. Separation also does not force the cheater to face up to the real reality of divorce while they indulge in their affair.

Make it clear to your wife that you are going straight to divorce and want one ASAP. Tell her that you believe that she has others in mind and intends to misuse separation as a chance to date and to bypass the commitment to monogamy. If she tries to deny this, tell her that you do not need her permission to hold this view and that since she does not want to commit to the marriage you want out. Tell her that it is not all about her and that your needs matter too. Tell her that you want to be married to someone that is committed to you and working on your marraige. Tell her that since she does not want to be that person, that as much as you would rather stay married, it is time that you started looking for someone that wants you.

Tell her that now is the time for her to either commit to working on the marraige or to move on with divorce. Tell her that not being able to decide is the same as no commitment and that you will treat it accordingly and move on to divorce. The odds are not in your favor that she will choose you and the marraige, but the odds only get worse in separation. Now it the best time to draw the line in the sand. Good luck. I am sorry that you are here.


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## Garry2012

SLL, while harsh, i understand your view, and somewhat agree with your assessment. It's an adjustment to go from the "loving caring husband" to the i dont give a da** soon to be ex...but i have moved alot in that direction in the last 4 days or so...as a result of the straight talk everyone has given me. This has been a difficult transmisison for me, we were very close, and now not, so it has been more that a shock to me.


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## turnera

Garry2012 said:


> I did detach emotionally since July, we have barely talked and been essentially "in house" separated. But when we talked two weeks ago, she said she still doesnt know what she wants..translation " i want out and dont know how to tell you." so i forced it and said i need to know, and she said she wanted a trial separation. I said, after 13 years, another 1 year of me telling you i love you wont make a difference. I was going to file next spring, but the advice i keep getting is to file now. I think she wants to wait for the holidays for the kids--which my world revolves around, so she knows im partial to anything for them. And the fact that her reasons for leaving me just wont fly with her whole family, then know me and us as a couple way too much--she will look like a dumba$$.


If you want her to stay AND stop the flirting, why aren't you telling her family that she's cheating on you?


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## turnera

And after you do that, tell her you are filing THIS WEEK. It will get some sort of change, which is better than what you have. Offer to pack her bags, but the kids stay with you, in their home. And you ain't leavin'.

She needs to see the alpha male in you, to want you again.


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## Garry2012

TRY, thanks that is exactly in line with what i have been telling her and plan to IF she ever agrees to talk to me. I cant make her talk to me, but will proceed with my plan to divorce. I agree with everything you said in that post, you are right on.


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## Garry2012

Turnera, i have approached the "tell her family" line, and she has gone ballistic, it is counter productive to say the least---i thought it would scare her staight, didnt work. 

As far a filing, I told her Sat that we are "headed for divorce" and that she is not the only one in this relationship making decisions. I need legal advice, then will put my case/talk together for the "i am filing" talk.


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## tom67

Expose this affair make it uncomfortable for the both of them take action file now.


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## Garry2012

I have nothing to expose, no recording, no information--just emotional detachment and resentment. But i know she is gone and has been flirting with or had some sort of affair.


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## turnera

Garry2012 said:


> Turnera, i have approached the "tell her family" line, and she has gone ballistic, it is counter productive to say the least---i thought it would scare her staight, didnt work.


No, you don't tell HER that you are going to tell her family. That's weak and needy.

You TELL her family and ask them to help you get her to understand what she's throwing away.

WHO CARES if she goes ballistic? She's already out the door. What have you got to lose?

Sometimes, just sometimes, the cheater knowing that their important people know what they do is enough to get them to stop cheating. 

And even if it doesn't, it keeps them all from believing the fogbabble she's spitting out about how it's YOU who caused all this, how you were abusive or lousy in bed or a bad father, etc. 

Exposure is a key aspect to ending a cheater's affair and sometimes getting them to quit and come back to the family. You have to stop the affair first before you can attempt any reconciliation; she can't care about you if she's giving all her attention to another man. Once he's out of the picture, she may go through withdrawal of her drug addiction to OM. And at that point, she MAY return to the person you used to know.

But you'll never know if you don't expose.


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## turnera

You have nothing to expose:


Garry2012 said:


> She turned 40, and was vocally upset by getting "old" saying "i only have 10 years of looking good left". Since then she has changed her clothing some, had a boob job and tummy tuck, got collagen in her lips and face etc. Then she opened up a facebook account and started flirting openly.
> Since i have confronted her with the flirting, just just hid it all, and added an instant messenger to her account.
> She became "best friends" with a married male, and they have spent numerous hours on the phone
> she is jealous of her friend who has a husband who doesnt care where she is, and no kids at home so her friend can do whatever she wants.
> Last year, she started texting a single guy, including on Xmas morning while I was playing with the kids and setting up their toys.
> I later confronted her over a conversation where her female best friend said "something is so going to happen between you two"
> she continued to text him for another few months
> two notes that she had: one was a grocery list with KY listed (im sure she will say it was some sort of moisture issue), and a gophone activation number (seems to be hiding communication again


That's plenty. You're just afraid of her.


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## alphaomega

It must suck knowing that you paid for all that cosmetic surgery that she's using now to cheat on you.

That would be enough for me to file.


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## Garry2012

alpha, yeah it does. She was always chunky, then got overweight. Now she is fit and enhanced, and so not interested in me..then again, she was never very sexual.


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## Garry2012

Her main affair is with the attention she is getting, its beautifully overwhelming to her i think.

Tunera, afraid of her, not at all. Tentative that I am making the wrong decision for my kids and the pain they will be forced to endure as a result of her actions and mine, 100%.


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## Garry2012

If no kids, i would have walked out the door with no problem. I am fiercy overprotective of my kids...this is counter intuitive to me...and extremely hard to put them through this..her fault or not.


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## Toffer

I agree with Tunera.

Expose to everyone before she has a chance to try and re-write the marital history with everyone. 

Since you don't have any hard evidence (did you even buy a VAR or a keylogger or total up all the texts /calls?) tell them what she's said to you about her friends. Tell them you can no longer live with someone who treats you this way and has zero interest in trying to fix it


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## Garry2012

Toffer said:


> I agree with Tunera.
> 
> Since you don't have any hard evidence (did you even buy a VAR or a keylogger or total up all the texts /calls?) tell them what she's said to you about her friends. Tell them you can no longer live with someone who treats you this way and has zero interest in trying to fix it


I have the phone records, my back pocket evidence for later. I totally agree with the statement "Tell them you can no longer live with someone who treats you this way and has zero interest in trying to fix it[/QUOTE]" thats what i will tell her when i let her know i am filing.


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## turnera

If you say nothing you are teaching your kids that it is ok to cheat and malign your spouse. They become what YOU two do. In your case, your doing is resulting in a bunch of hand-wringing and waiting and hoping. Teach your sons to do more than that. Teach your daughters that if you cheat, you suffer consequences. Teach them that their dad will never lie to them or cover up for someone else.

Basically, you are staying quiet in the hopes that she won't blow up at you and make a scene. Do I get that right?


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## Toffer

Garry2012 said:


> I have the phone records, my back pocket evidence for later. I totally agree with the statement "Tell them you can no longer live with someone who treats you this way and has zero interest in trying to fix it


" thats what i will tell her when i let her know i am filing.[/QUOTE]

Just file.

Don't tell her anything!

The shock may may do her system good. 

After she's served, THEN you can tell her you can no longer live with someone who treats you this way and has zero interest in trying to fix it


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## Garry2012

No, not at all Tunera. We have blown up and made a scene. I couldnt care less about that. Those are great lessons for 20 somethings...not for an 8 yo. I know where you're coming from, and your right, the handwringing and hoping gets me nowhere. But, this was a good marriage not that long ago, as far as i know anyway (though she has prob been thinking for alot longer). My parents had a bad marriage, it would have been easy for one of them to throw in the towel, and neither one would have cared. They didnt, for 20 something years and were miserable the whole time. 

I worked in a conflict driven profession for 10 years, no porblem with conflict. Its the collateral damage that concerns me most--the kids. Not a reason to stay, i understand, and she needs to learn that i can make decisions for or against us--she is learning quickly.


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## turnera

Have you read Surviving An Affair?


----------



## This is me

Garry,

Sorry you are going through this. 

About 2 years ago I noticed a major change in my wife. Suddenly she started working out like never before, got braces on her teeth (which were fine) and never told me she was doing it, looked into a boob job with a sister and again, never told me till later. 

The emotional detachment was become more obvious. D-Day arrived and it was right out of the WAW scenerio. Then discovered she was having regular lunches with a young single co-worker. 
Prior to all this we had a great marriage. All our friends would agree. Sounds like you had a good marriage too.

Well two years later and she is back to her old self for the most part. Out of the fog and the alien has left her body. It took 4 months of seperation, about a year of MC, IC and still doing marriage workshops, but in the end the marriage was saved.

Read Divorce Busting or Divorce Remedy. DR became my bible.

I was advised to Divorce her many times, but I knew the women I married was in there somewhere. It took time, patience and trying my best to mitigate the damage she was spewing.

We were in a week of me filing when the tables turned.

I wish you well!!


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## Garry2012

This is me: yeah thats what i struggle with. This is a woman who made me breakfast, poured and delivered my coffee and put my lunch together EVERY DAY...and probably still would, but out of anger (and part of the separation ordeal) i dont her to not do anything for me anymore.

Not to say that she hasnt changed, or that she will EVER be that woman again. Alot of the advice i have received on here is dead on as far as her behavior. I do believe that she needs a "shot across the bow" in terms of me not taking her crap anymore, and being handed the divorce papers would certainly accomplish that. 

I have been somewhat of a doormat, i would agree to that.....but dont regret it. Gives me more substanance to say "ok, i tried the wait and see approach", but it didnt work. So now, i am taking control of my future...here is my plan etc.


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## turnera

If you expose a cheater early, they have less time for the drug addiction to take hold and they are more likely to turn back into the woman you knew.

Divorcing will do the trick. But if you're going to divorce, why not expose first? What have you got to lose? At least your kids will see you fighting for the marriage rather than just waiting to see if she remembers you're there.


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## Garry2012

At their ages, they just see fighting...they dont rationalize whose in the right or wrong. I grew up in a fighing house (sometimes violent), i just wanted it to stop, i never thought about who did what to whom and why.


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## This is me

Garry2012 said:


> This is me: yeah thats what i struggle with. This is a woman who made me breakfast, poured and delivered my coffee and put my lunch together EVERY DAY...and probably still would, but out of anger (and part of the separation ordeal) i dont her to not do anything for me anymore.
> 
> Not to say that she hasnt changed, or that she will EVER be that woman again. Alot of the advice i have received on here is dead on as far as her behavior. I do believe that she needs a "shot across the bow" in terms of me not taking her crap anymore, and being handed the divorce papers would certainly accomplish that.
> 
> I have been somewhat of a doormat, i would agree to that.....but dont regret it. Gives me more substanance to say "ok, i tried the wait and see approach", but it didnt work. So now, i am taking control of my future...here is my plan etc.


I am glad you are taking control of your life, but from my experience, since I wanted to save the marriage if at all possible, I played that card last. I 180'd the best I could, upped my sex ranking, found old friends, picked up the guitar, basically showed that I would be alright with out her. She noticed. 

3 months into the seperation, I had had enough of the limbo land, and gave her a choice. We either move towards reconciliation, or we divorce so I could move on with my life. She was set on Divorce, but the final day she snapped out of it.

This took much time a patience, but it was worth it.

I wish you well!


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## Toffer

Garry2012 said:


> At their ages, they just see fighting...they dont rationalize whose in the right or wrong. I grew up in a fighing house (sometimes violent), i just wanted it to stop, i never thought about who did what to whom and why.


Gary,

My wife grew up like this. She and her sister used to wish that their parents WOULD divorce so the fighting would stop

Remember, kids would rather BE from a broken home than LIVE in one


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## turnera

Garry2012 said:


> At their ages, they just see fighting...they dont rationalize whose in the right or wrong. I grew up in a fighing house (sometimes violent), i just wanted it to stop, i never thought about who did what to whom and why.


 There's no fighting if YOU don't participate.


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## turnera

Toffer said:


> Gary,
> 
> My wife grew up like this. She and her sister used to wish that their parents WOULD divorce so the fighting would stop
> 
> Remember, kids would rather BE from a broken home than LIVE in one


 The point of the exposure is to get the OM out of the family. The fighting would go on - if there MUST be fighting (that's up to Garry) - for a week or two as she realizes her fantasy wherein Garry pays for her to go out and sow her oats is disappearing. Then, SOMETHING is going to change. They'll either split up, or she'll give up OM and they can begin to reconcile.


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## Toffer

turnera,l

Not disagreeing with you. In the case of my wife's parents, there was no type of infidelity involved or suspected. My FIL was just an a$$clown

I think filing is a great jolt and will either bring her to her senses or speed up her trip out the door.

As it's always said, the divorce can be stopped at any point shy of filing the signed paper work


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## This is me

Again, if they are in a fog. MLC. They are not thinking clearly, so time is your friend. Playing the D card could force the issue when they are not in the right frame of mind.

It all depends on what you want and whether you can have patience.


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## Garry2012

guys, i know i dont always agree with all the advice, but it is helping! I have changed my attitude and i am getting better and better each day with accepting the reality of her gone. THAT is the reality that she is just now starting to see.


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## Trying2figureitout

This is me said:


> Garry,
> 
> Sorry you are going through this.
> 
> About 2 years ago I noticed a major change in my wife. Suddenly she started working out like never before, got braces on her teeth (which were fine) and never told me she was doing it, looked into a boob job with a sister and again, never told me till later.
> 
> The emotional detachment was become more obvious. D-Day arrived and it was right out of the WAW scenerio. Then discovered she was having regular lunches with a young single co-worker.
> Prior to all this we had a great marriage. All our friends would agree. Sounds like you had a good marriage too.
> 
> Well two years later and she is back to her old self for the most part. Out of the fog and the alien has left her body. It took 4 months of seperation, about a year of MC, IC and still doing marriage workshops, but in the end the marriage was saved.
> 
> Read Divorce Busting or Divorce Remedy. DR became my bible.
> 
> I was advised to Divorce her many times, but I knew the women I married was in there somewhere. It took time, patience and trying my best to mitigate the damage she was spewing.
> 
> We were in a week of me filing when the tables turned.
> 
> I wish you well!!


TIM...awesome just want to say congrats!

My wife and I had the TALK II last night... we almost separated too during that conversion. Cooler heads prevailed and now we are on the same path with a checkpoint in January...going to take some time still but we will get there. My wife is a work of art she needs counseling but flat out refuses. Childhood emotional trauma..she's reliving her high school years now because she missed out due to past trauma. I too had to extract the OM from her life.

I'm thinking a few more months and everything should be excellent. She knows I'm done and will not allows non resolution to go on indefinitely. Times running out on my patience.

We both deserve a pat on the back. Wives are crazy.
Mine I found out STILL was holding a grudge after three years and me standing up for my needs.
Frustrating. Think its the follow through on separation that wakes them up to reality and gets them out if that FOG.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Garry2012 said:


> TRY, thanks that is exactly in line with what i have been telling her and plan to IF she ever agrees to talk to me. I cant make her talk to me, but will proceed with my plan to divorce. I agree with everything you said in that post, you are right on.



This above use of words indicates a you take a victim role in the situation, and the verbs you use keep this mindset part of your character.

Garry, part of your transformation will be that you start to use other frasing of your sentences.

Think about this please. Using other words can change your sitatuation in an instant, because YOU change!


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## See_Listen_Love

Garry2012 said:


> No, not at all Tunera. We have blown up and made a scene. I couldnt care less about that. Those are great lessons for 20 somethings...not for an 8 yo. I know where you're coming from, and your right, the handwringing and hoping gets me nowhere. But, this was a good marriage not that long ago, as far as i know anyway (though she has prob been thinking for alot longer). My parents had a bad marriage, it would have been easy for one of them to throw in the towel, and neither one would have cared. They didnt, for 20 something years and were miserable the whole time.
> 
> I worked in a conflict driven profession for 10 years, no porblem with conflict. Its the collateral damage that concerns me most--the kids. Not a reason to stay, i understand, and she needs to learn that i can make decisions for or against us--she is learning quickly.


Yes! :smthumbup: :smthumbup:


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## Goldmember357

your only mistake was meeting and staying with her not noticing her flaws.

But its okay

because LIFE GOES ON.

in order to be happy you need to let go of her and move on. rejoice for those around you, be happy for others seek to help others. Do away with feelings of anger they only hold you back, jealousy does to.

look your wife is a miserable person she is destroying herself you can take some comfort in knowing she is unhappy and miserable and will continue to be for maybe even the rest of her life. HOWEVER you do not have to be


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## Garry2012

look your wife is a miserable person she is destroying herself you can take some comfort in knowing she is unhappy and miserable and will continue to be for maybe even the rest of her life. HOWEVER you do not have to be[/QUOTE]

Yeah, and this truthfully is a hard lesson for me. I have always been the one to direct and "save" the situation, including being her rock and "hero". I need to turn my back on that, which is hard for me to do, let her make the wrong decisions and live with them.


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## turnera

Living with your mistakes is the best way to learn from them.


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## Garry2012

Ok, so a brief update. I have told her that with her or without her i am moving on in my life. Seems like she is "on the fence" about moving out, but still agrees to a further separation. I want to spy on her activities, as i think there is more to this. 

Should i try to hack her facebook and gmail accounts? VAR is a possibility, but not sure i have the time (or a good location) to get the best convos. GPS tracker phone, is another possibility, but i still suspect the vast majority of her contacts are through her iphone (text/facebook/calls) and the gophone she is hiding.


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## Tall Average Guy

Garry2012 said:


> Ok, so a brief update. I have told her that with her or without her i am moving on in my life. Seems like she is "on the fence" about moving out, but still agrees to a further separation. I want to spy on her activities, as i think there is more to this.
> 
> Should i try to hack her facebook and gmail accounts? VAR is a possibility, but not sure i have the time (or a good location) to get the best convos. GPS tracker phone, is another possibility, but i still suspect the vast majority of her contacts are through her iphone (text/facebook/calls) and the gophone she is hiding.


Is any of that stuff really necessary? Will infidelity make a difference in a divorce? Why do you need it? Not saying you should not, but really examine why you want it.

My advice is to get a legal separation or divorce started. I suspect she does not believe you will follow through. Look at what happened when you threatened to tell her family - she bullied you into backing down. I think you need to demonstrate your resolve.


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## Toffer

Agree with TAG at this point.

Since you haven't bothered to try ANY of the investigative tecniques mentioned when you first started this thread AND if it makes absolutely no difference in the dissoulution of this marriage, then just do it! File!


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## AFEH

Toffer said:


> Agree with TAG at this point.
> 
> Since you haven't bothered to try ANY of the investigative tecniques mentioned when you first started this thread AND if it makes absolutely no difference in the dissoulution of this marriage, then just do it! File!


Well I disagree. Surely he needs to know the truth else he'll possibly be haunted for a very long time.


He needs to be absolutely certain, 100% sure "why" he is divorcing else there will be doubt in his mind and he'll be in great danger of losing his resolve.


I don't know if you've been through it but separation and divorce is no trivial matter and takes a lot of resolve, most especially if you're still in love with the woman.


----------



## A Bit Much

AFEH said:


> Well I disagree. Surely he needs to know the truth else he'll possibly be haunted for a very long time.
> 
> 
> He needs to be absolutely certain, 100% sure "why" he is divorcing else there will be doubt in his mind and he'll be in great danger of losing his resolve.
> 
> 
> I don't know if you've been through it but separation and divorce is no trivial matter and takes a lot of resolve, most especially if you're still in love with the woman.


And sometimes its just easier and less uncomfortable to do nothing at all.


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## Tall Average Guy

AFEH said:


> Well I disagree. Surely he needs to know the truth else he'll possibly be haunted for a very long time.
> 
> 
> He needs to be absolutely certain, 100% sure "why" he is divorcing else there will be doubt in his mind and he'll be in great danger of losing his resolve.
> 
> 
> I don't know if you've been through it but separation and divorce is no trivial matter and takes a lot of resolve, most especially if you're still in love with the woman.


In rereading, I want clarify my post:

I have no problem is the OP wants to investigate - I only urge him to think about why he needs/wants to do it. If it is to close the door and give him the boost to move forward with separating, then by all means he should investigate. 

If it is for other reasons, he should consider whether it is necessary, as it may be difficult and risks keeping him tied to her when what he needs is distance.


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## AFEH

TAG, Ending a marriage is I would think one of the most mentally and emotionally difficult things to do. It sure was for me, a time of severe stress and anxiety, anger and resentment and then comes the grieving, a whole new and different bundle of emotions to deal with and work through. It can take years.


Knowing what the real situation is, what the truth is, is a form of closure.


If the guys wife has betrayed him then being in no doubt of that is a very big form of closure. It lets him know “why” he is closing his heart and soul to his wife such that she no longer has access and in that way can no longer wound him and cause him pain. It lets him know why he is to become maybe a part time father, why he is losing probably more than half he has worked to accrue etc. etc.


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## Garry2012

A bit much....totally agree that doing nothing is easy...im not here posting because i want to take the easy route. 

She definately needs to know im serious. She is lost right now. I asked her yesterday what was in her mind for separation rules..no idea, when was she going to see a IC, maybe January, are you moving out in January, I dont know. 

I have told her that i will move on with or without her, that i will not wait forever for her to decide about our future, and discussed dividing up assets etc. She doesnt seem to get it. I will meet with a divorce attny and get advice and let her know my time table and expectations for her (getting therapy now etc).

If i can use that to get closure, i could sleep better at night.


----------



## turnera

Tall Average Guy said:


> get a legal separation or divorce started. I suspect she does not believe you will follow through. Look at what happened when you threatened to tell her family - *she bullied you into backing down*. I think you need to demonstrate your resolve.


Agreed.


----------



## Emerald

AFEH said:


> TAG, Ending a marriage is I would think one of the most mentally and emotionally difficult things to do. It sure was for me, a time of severe stress and anxiety, anger and resentment and then comes the grieving, a whole new and different bundle of emotions to deal with and work through. It can take years.
> 
> 
> Knowing what the real situation is, what the truth is, is a form of closure.
> 
> 
> If the guys wife has betrayed him then being in no doubt of that is a very big form of closure. It lets him know “why” he is closing his heart and soul to his wife such that she no longer has access and in that way can no longer wound him and cause him pain. It lets him know why he is to become maybe a part time father, why he is losing probably more than half he has worked to accrue etc. etc.


Agree.

I would want to know the truth.


----------



## Toffer

Garry and AFEH,

I think my point is that Garry's wife looks to be up to something yet Garry has so far opted not to investigate.

Sorry Garry but at times it doesn't seem you really want the truth even though as AFEH notes it's often helpful for the one spouse to know that his STBX wasn't really worthy of all their love and effort to keep the marriage together

I know sometimes it's easier to say that the two of you just grew apart and wanted other things when in your heart and your mind you really know that isn't the case. Shy of opening the front door and cathing your W on the couch with some guy, what dio YOU really want? How do YOU think you can cope with this?

Also remember that IF there is something going on AND you'd consider ANY opportunity to fix this (however a remote possibility it is) you need to know EVERYTHING about the situation. No amount of counseling, begging or threatening will give your wife a clear understanding of what is happening IF she's still involved with someone!


----------



## AFEH

^ I don't know about that.


In my mind by what he's expressed previously he's "getting there". Rome wasn't built in a day and all that.

Gary's had a change of mind set and I don't think he's being stubborn while at the same time he does have things to do.


He is most certainly listening and acting, well done for that Gary. Many don't.


Another reason for spying on your wife is that there may well be less there than you actually think (fear?). If there is less then you may well pull the trigger on your marriage for the wrong reasons and that's something to be forever regretted even when a very old man.


You have to know why so you don't live in regret. I know why I ended my 40 odd year marriage. I know my reasons were valid and they've proven the test of time. It's for those reasons that I've never once regretted it. I only ever found out the truth by spying on my wife. She was never going to tell me.


----------



## Garry2012

Thank you AFEH! I am getting there! I am very much a "do me wrong and your gone" person when people treat me wrong--almost to a fault. I want to know, believe me, I would LOVE to catch her doing ANYTHING at this point--otherwise she holds to her argument that i am just an irrational control freak. With some evidence, shes out, no questions asked, no problems but the obvious ones.

She has had now 2 women in her family (not blood) who were caught by their husbands through email(cracking a private account) or expenses, having affairs. 

I would hire a private eye, but dont think i will get the $$ worth. I suspect most of her activity is by phone, and at some point she may be getting out, but that could be anytime--i dont have a pinpointed time when she is off the grid really.


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## turnera

Do you have a keylogger on her computer?


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## A Bit Much

> the gophone she is hiding.


I'm sorry but this IMO is evidence of something afoul. I don't need to know the details. If she didn't have a cell phone at all, then I could see the whole investigative point.

A married woman who's %100 committed to her marriage doesn't do this, unless now she's an undercover spy working for the government and needs the phone as part of her cover. 

Just my .02.


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## Garry2012

so true ABM, but the gophone is a suspicion i have...as she had a gophone activiation number written down. I agree, if i could just find the darn gophone, id take that as good evidence! I continue to look etc, but nothing yet.


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> so true ABM, but the gophone is a suspicion i have...as she had a gophone activiation number written down. I agree, if i could just find the darn gophone, id take that as good evidence! I continue to look etc, but nothing yet.


It's either HERS or HIS, either way, it's suspicious enough for me to put 2 and 2 together with all the other shenannigans she's been doing/saying to come up with a reasonable summation.

The ONLY way she could come out of this is if she's planning a surprise party for you. If it's not your birthday, or anniversary then it's easy IMO to put two and two together.


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## Garry2012

haha...yeah...and that AINT happening. I just want to have a nice going away party with at least one solid "look what i have!!!" nugget.


----------



## A Bit Much

Well so far...

You have a gophone number.

You have 2 facebook accounts.

You have a wife who's given you the ILYBINILWY speech.

You have her secretiveness and hiding things from you.

What else do you want?


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Garry2012 said:


> The sad part Emerald, is that SHE wanted to be the SAHM to raise our kids, she hated work. Now, she *****es and complains that she is bored bored bored, and eludes to it being my fault. I told her i would love to stay home but....that goes nowhere.


As the saying goes, only boring people are bored. 

I would LOVE to be a SAHM. I would peruse take an art class, garden more, work out daily, take a cooking class, run my daughter and her friends around and greet my man at the door with a kiss and dinner every night. How wonderful to be caught up so every evening could be spent relaxing together as a family.

Time to let her go. She's already gone.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Garry2012 said:


> so true ABM, but the gophone is a suspicion i have...as she had a gophone activiation number written down. I agree, if i could just find the darn gophone, id take that as good evidence! I continue to look etc, but nothing yet.


When she's in the shower look in her car, the kitchen drawer/pantry... anywhere you don't normally go. Her bathrobe pocket - wherever. Can you call the GoPhone help line with the activation # and ask what the phone # to that phone is - say you forgot it and need to give the # to someone? Then call it when she's in the shower? Block your # when you call so she doesn't see you rang.

VAR under her seat in the car and key logger on PC for sure. She shouldn't benefit from your working hard to allow that lifestyle if you live in an at-fault state.


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## Garry2012

Im not sure SHE thinks she is gone....i am ready to let her go...i think she will cling to me for security etc.


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## turnera

If you're ready to let her go, just do so. If she doesn't fight to get you back (on YOUR terms), then you have your answer.


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## Trying2figureitout

OP... I'm one to stay to the bitter bitter end, because I know mine will turn around before that.

Unfortunately from all I read yours is past that... sorry.
Cut the poison out of your life. She messed up...you finish it.


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## Pault

Garry2012 said:


> Im not sure SHE thinks she is gone....i am ready to let her go...i think she will cling to me for security etc.


Garry that in itself is not a supprise as your W is living 2 lives. There above is listed the things that a true to marridge wife would not have in place. There are NO secrets in a marridge and yes we all accept the special supprises that show love and devotion secrets like parties and holidays. Whislt you are allowing the sense of security to maintain your W is feeling safe and is willing to hide her other life, be underhanded and for all you know at present is setting a plan in place to drop you on your butt when she feels like time is right.

Youve done well to confront many of the issues and leaving a marridge is massive. No one here will deny that. However, if your not geting honesty, if youve had the love you not in love statement and there are hidden phones, secret facebook (god I hate that damn thing) accounts then there is a W who is no longer seeking to have you there except to pay the bills. Time to deliver the bye bye call


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## Garry2012

Pault, your right. I think she is somewhat in denial too. I WAS the man of her dreams..and now, affair or not, she is not looking at me that way and she knows what she has to do. She is affraid to do it. She will push back on divorce, she thinks that is a rush to judgement, but when i look at the text convos we have (she refuses to talk to me face to face because "its always a fight") it cant be more obvious. She is scared of the single life and of not seeing her kids daily, along with the immense critisizm from her family. Down deep she HAS to know she wants to move on. We will sit down in the next 2-3 wks (when i have time to prepare due to work), and i will lay it out to her--no separation, i am going to file and if you truly want this to work you have to make XYZ concessions. You have 12 months to figure it out or we will finalize.

I have made my feeling for her clear and my desire to work it out. I cant do anything more.


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## bandit.45

File the paperwork. You can always cancel it later if she comes around. Don't wait for her to come around first. Stay ahead of the game. Take control.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## A Bit Much

12 months is very generous. I wouldn't give her a timeline that long and I would hesitate telling her. Reason? Her ability to play me for 11 of those months while squirreling funds away to leave me anyway.


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## relate

ok so she's managed to keep a step ahead of all your attempts so far and in the meantime you've raised her guard enough that she's gone deeper underground with her illicit activities. The GoPhone is probably extremelt carefully hidden now. I wish you had listened to the earlier advice of the keylogger (you never addressed that advice yet) because she may have stopped using your PC now that she's gone into deep cover up mode. But you should still install one.


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## Garry2012

Relate, she has been in "deep hiding" mode for a while. She barely uses the computer, though it may get me passwords that i need. Her iphone has been the major enabler for some time.

12 months as in "im filing" and it takes 12 months to finalize.


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## Chaparral

If she has a burner phone, she is using it in the car for sure. You can get great VARs a t bestbuy and walmart. Get heavyduty velcro and put it under the front seat. Be sure to get one that has a long battery life. This usually doesn't take to long.

Ironically, women who get weight reduction surgery and/or boob jobs have an extremely high rate of infidelity.

Check your old phone bills to figure out the the number of the other man/men. Then you can go to spokeo.com tfind out his name and more.

If she is fooling with a married man the burner phone could be for him.

Keylog her computer to see who she is emailng and get the texts.


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## Garry2012

Chap, yeah, i have been on the phone records for a while. Iphone screwed me with the imessage deal. I check numbers periodically in freecellsearch.com.

Sadly ironic, she has had weighloss and boob surgery...double whammy.


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## Chaparral

Garry2012 said:


> Relate, she has been in "deep hiding" mode for a while. She barely uses the computer, though it may get me passwords that i need. Her iphone has been the major enabler for some time.
> 
> 12 months as in "im filing" and it takes 12 months to finalize.


Even if the messages are deleted on and Iphone, the deleted messages can be found.

This link may help:

MobileSyncBrowser | View and Recover your iPhone data


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## Garry2012

great thanks! I am hesitant of getting a virus from a random keylogger...anyone have suggestions?

can i get HER info off her iphone with MobileSynch?

She has been noticably "off the grid" the last two weeks.....used to delete email etc when home. VAR may be good, if i have time to go through all the "ok" time...thats my challenge.


----------



## relate

Garry2012 said:


> great thanks! I am hesitant of getting a virus from a random keylogger...anyone have suggestions?
> .


Revealer Keylogger Free Edition by Logixoft works well. You may have to tweak your antivirus settings to ignore it upon install, because many legit keyloggers get false flagged by antivirus software.


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## ArmyofJuan

Garry2012 said:


> I have made my feeling for her clear and my desire to work it out. I cant do anything more.


Yea you can, take R off the table.

As long as she thinks you will be her backup plan she will be on the fence. 

Push her off and do it asap. Your goal is to steam roll towards a D without a second thought and her's will be to try to stop you. If she doesn't stop you then D would be the correct course of action. Don't even think about putting the brakes on the D until the last minute.

She needs to lose everything (or at least think she has) before she really appreciates what she has. Don't drag your feet hoping she'll have a change of heart, push her away and make her earn her way back.

She is going to wish she had her boring life back when she is out on the streets looking for a job. She has no idea how much work it will be to be single and you need to show her so she gets that fantasy out of her head.


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## Garry2012

Yep....it has taken some time to get it through my head Juan, but i agree completely.


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## Chaparral

Got a job yet? I'm cutting you off. Got a job yet? Got a job yet............

Did anyone tell you to read Married Man Sex Life yet? Sounds like a sex manual, its NOT.


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## turnera

Is she a SAHM?


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## Garry2012

yeah turnera she is. Which is ALOT of why she wants to wait...she has zero cash. And frankly i dont have enough to run to households.


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## Garry2012

Question: I asked her if we were to date in her idea of a separation....she said "didnt plan on it, but i cant stop you". Basically a no answer. 

Do I push the dating thing, maybe ask again and go to a movie by myself, and she how she reacts? Might help to move her off her fence, either she will get mad or wont care. Thoughts?


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## turnera

Garry2012 said:


> Do I push the dating thing, maybe ask again and go to a movie by myself, and see how she reacts?


Let me ask you: how needy and beta male do you think that sounds?


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## turnera

If she's a SAHM and dependent on your money, stop giving her money. SHE wants to fire you. Let her. Let her find her own money. Cut off the internet or install a system where only you gets to turn it on. Stop giving her money to spend on herself; if she wants a new dress, let her get a job.


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## Chaparral

Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.


----------



## MattMatt

Garry2012 said:


> Ok, where do i start. I have been married for 13 years. My wife and i have had a very loving relationship up until the last couple of years. She turned 40, and was vocally upset by getting "old" saying "i only have 10 years of looking good left". Since then she has changed her clothing some, had a boob job and tummy tuck, got collagen in her lips and face etc. Then she opened up a facebook account and started flirting openly. We have fought alot about that since she opened it. Since i have confronted her with the flirting, just just hid it all, and added an instant messenger to her account. She became "best friends" with a married male, and they have spent numerous hours on the phone, though she has recently said they dont talk much, there were times when they talked for alot (6 hours over two weeks). she has also lightly flirted with him in front of me. In the last year, she has been depressed, complaining alot about the daily "grind" of taking care of the kids, not getting out to do anything (she is a stay at home mom)--often saying that she is jealous of her friend who has a husband who doesnt care where she is, and no kids at home so her friend can do whatever she wants. Last year, she started texting a single guy, including on Xmas morning while I was playing with the kids and setting up their toys. I later confronted her over a conversation where her female best friend said "something is so going to happen between you two" (of the single man). She says that was nothing and i am just overly jealous and controlling. Yet, another warning sign, and she continued to text him for another few months. So, this year, in July, something snapped, we just stopped talking for a couple weeks, and when i confronted her, she laid into me about never loving her, and specifically saying that when we broke up (by letter--my bad) 15 years ago when we were dating, it really hurt her and now, after 13 years of marriage, she wants to separate. She refuses to see any counceling,or admit that this is a MLC, i tell her i love her and this is hearbreaking and she basically says she is sad, but needs to get away. I dont think she has any good reason so leave, but do have a theory. My theory is that she has been flirting on facebook, and the guys have been hitting on her alot, and she wants to live like she is 25 again. I represent nothing more than a boring life, and she wants more. I am not sure if she is/has cheated, but did notice two notes that she had: one was a grocery list with KY listed (im sure she will say it was some sort of moisture issue), and a gophone activation number (seems to be hiding communication again). I am contemplating just filing for divorce--I cant change the past, and after 13 years of a loving relationship, cant imagine any way to convince her that i do love her at this point. Advice?


My theory, well, my advice, is that you need to ask a moderator to move this to the Coping With Infidelity forum on TAM. Because you are coping with her infidelity.

But guess what? Your situation is bad, but not desperate.


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## Garry2012

Turnera, not beta, I want to go on the offensive.


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## turnera

Are you saying you want to ask HER to go out with you, or ask her if she minds if you date someone else?


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## Garry2012

oh heck no, i aint asking her out...lol. I am pushing the envelope on her....She said "i dont plan on dating but cant stop you if you do".

Mute at this point, but it helps me come to grips....if she is ok with her husband dating....just another good indication (as if i need more, but i do) that its over.


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## Chaparral

There is a difference in say she doesn't mind and she can't stop you. What did I miss?


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## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> oh heck no, i aint asking her out...lol. I am pushing the envelope on her....She said "i dont plan on dating but cant stop you if you do".
> 
> Mute at this point, but it helps me come to grips....if she is ok with her husband dating....just another good indication (as if i need more, but i do) that its over.


Do you really believe she'd answer you honestly? If I were her, I'd say what she said too. Keeps things hazy. If she says NO I don't mind, you'd know what she was up to. Her not caring what you were doing gives you the indication she's checked completely out and likely dating herself. Saying YES just confuses things for you both because she's not acting a bit like she wants to be married to you anymore. So the next best answer is the one she gave. You do what you want, it's your choice, I can't stop you... not "I wouldn't want that at all" or "I think that's a bad idea".


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## Garry2012

ABM, yeah, i want to pull her out of her hazy answer..exactly! Pushing the envelope will either make her take a stand, or have to say ok--or at least "not mind"....if i worded correctly


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> ABM, yeah, i want to pull her out of her hazy answer..exactly! Pushing the envelope will either make her take a stand, or have to say ok--or at least "not mind"....if i worded correctly


No it won't. She's not going to give you the response you want to cause you to turn left or right, you're going to have to decide what to do on your own. Her behavior is so off. I don't know why you need anything else.


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## Garry2012

I want to corner her so its not a "his word agaist mine" deal. I want to pull her off the fence, one way or the other. I will not stay in this pattern long. She is all about avoiding the situation, hoping it just goes away--then when i file, it will be all my fault. I dont want that, i want HER to take the hit she deserves. Ideally, i want her to say "im not in love with you anymore", done deal.


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> I want to corner her so its not a "his word agaist mine" deal. I want to pull her off the fence, one way or the other. I will not stay in this pattern long. She is all about avoiding the situation, hoping it just goes away--then when i file, it will be all my fault. I dont want that, i want HER to take the hit she deserves. Ideally, i want her to say "im not in love with you anymore", done deal.


What you want to happen and what WILL happen are far apart. She's not going to say that to you. Why would she accept the demise of this marriage? The whole point of this is to put it on you anyway. She's not happy with you and it's YOUR fault. So if you're already taking the hit, what difference does it make what she says to you? No matter which way you slice this, you'll be the bad guy. Take your lumps and take action. She's riding the fence because you allow her too. Do I have to keep mentioning that you are FUNDING her current lifestyle? One which she gets to flirt and play all on your dime? You allow that.


----------



## Garry2012

Not true at all. There is an art and a flow to conflict management. This is no different. HAVE to get buy in to the problem before you can work towards a solution. I need to get to the problem, that is what she is not revealing. She is "funded" at the bare minimum to by for the house etc, im hardly throwing money at her to raise her rank. I know i will be the bad guy, but im not taking 100% of the blame.


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> Not true at all. There is an art and a flow to conflict management. This is no different. HAVE to get buy in to the problem before you can work towards a solution. I need to get to the problem, that is what she is not revealing. She is "funded" at the bare minimum to by for the house etc, im hardly throwing money at her to raise her rank. I know i will be the bad guy, but im not taking 100% of the blame.


The issue is you have no control over whether she reveals anything or not. All you have is pieces of evidence that SOMETHING is off. That list I made earlier of what you do have would be plenty for me. And whether she's being funded amply or minimally still means she's being funded. Without your funds she wouldn't have access to facebook and her iPhone, and any other means of communication she's using to carry on like she is.

You want a solid answer. Nothing is wrong with that. I understand it completely... but she won't give you one. So you're stuck with making the next move without it, or doing absolutely nothing.


----------



## Garry2012

ok, in bumping around this site i read the 180 plan. I am close doing it well, but i am very cold to her and quiet at home. I need to be the person i am, but cut her out of it (kinda do with the kids).


----------



## Garry2012

also in looking around TAM, my story seems to be replayed over and over--with minor tweeks.


----------



## WyshIknew

Garry2012 said:


> also in looking around TAM, my story seems to be replayed over and over--with minor tweeks.


Exactly!

Glad you realise it!

Take the advice you are given!


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## Garry2012

oh yeah i have!! Not to mention the fact that i dont feel so out on a limb with a unique problem. That helps alot too.


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## turnera

What books have you read on the subject?


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## Chaparral

Garry2012 said:


> ok, in bumping around this site i read the 180 plan. I am close doing it well, but i am very cold to her and quiet at home. I need to be the person i am, but cut her out of it (kinda do with the kids).


The 180 is for a person that has given up on the relationship and wants to move on. It is way more likely to assure a break up than a reconcilliation. In other words you use the 180 as a tool to prepare for divorce.

If you want to try and save your marriage you should read Married Man Sex Life and follow the MAP. Also check out the Divorce Busters website.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

chapparal said:


> The 180 is for a person that has given up on the relationship and wants to move on. It is way more likely to assure a break up than a reconcilliation. In other words you use the 180 as a tool to prepare for divorce.
> 
> If you want to try and save your marriage you should read Married Man Sex Life and follow the MAP. Also check out the Divorce Busters website.


You start running MAP wife can find out its just become ALPHA for three weeks does not work in every case in fact its likely to just PO her.
Key is to not let them know you are becoming ALPHA have to do it slow and at key moments.

THE PLAN has aspects of all those books... much more devious and surgical.
THE PLAN hits below the belt just like she did... fire with fire.

Wait for THE PLAN after results role in... stay tuned.
Help is on its way guys. Soon.

THE PLAN will be just as popular as those books and a lot more fun at the end. Nice to put he shoe on the other foot.

Who would have thought my wife would be worried I was getting home in time to watch football and ask me about the game itself afterwards? 

Who would have though my wife would apologize twice to me when I call her out on a bad behavior? You want to be able to stand up to your wife without repercussions? I can and I do.

Sex is the last domino to fall. New marriage 2.0
Take the lead and be bold. Create the marriage you know it should be.


----------



## warlock07

Garry2012 said:


> Relate, she has been in "deep hiding" mode for a while. She barely uses the computer, though it may get me passwords that i need. Her iphone has been the major enabler for some time.
> 
> 12 months as in "im filing" and it takes 12 months to finalize.


Does she sync her iphone with the home computer ? many ways to get the deleted texts from her back up. Just google them up with relevant model(3G 4g etc) 


You will get better responses on how to snoop on her if you move this post to Coping with Infidelity section. Request a moderator.


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## Garry2012

yeah thanks for the info. I have started looking at her sync, but no, i think she syncs to the cloud. I will put a new thread under that topic.


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## WasDecimated

Garry2012 said:


> I want to corner her so its not a "his word agaist mine" deal. I want to pull her off the fence, one way or the other. I will not stay in this pattern long. She is all about avoiding the situation, hoping it just goes away--then when i file, it will be all my fault. I dont want that, i want HER to take the hit she deserves. Ideally, i want her to say "im not in love with you anymore", done deal.


Wow Garry, our stories sound so similar...in most respects.
If you are curious read my story. My STBXW acted just like yours. She also lied and denied for years. IT was a EA/PA.

I lived with ambivalence from my STBXW for well over a year after I found out about the cheating...it sucked. I finally filed for D. 

In my case I kept digging and found more then enough proof of her EA/PA. My STBXW locked her phone and computer down as well. The phone never left her side. She didn't have a burner phone...didn't need one. She has a Droid. There are so many cheating apps that hide texts and calls from the bill. She used our home phone as well as he was local...no records on local calls. I would bug that. They used instant messaging, email and FB in-boxing a lot. POSOM had me blocked of FB so I couldn't see their activity. I finally used a GPS tracker to confirm contact. With in a week I tracked her to a hotel during the day while I was at work. I called the hotel and asked to be connected to his room...and they did (I knew who he was). This confined that he rented the room.

Honestly, I would just file and move on. Don't waste so much time like I did. I doubt that my STBXW will change back to who she used to be. Do you think yours will? I feel mine is gone. Even if she did would you be willing to live what she did and with all of the questions you have not being answered? Mine would never admit anything...and still won't. 

Divorce papers did nothing to wake STBXW up and may not work for you either. I now feel that I waited way to long to hit her with reality. I should have filed immediately after finding out the truth. The longer you wait, the more time they have to get used to the idea of being single again...not what you want. 

I finally told my STBXW to make a decision or I would make it for her...she couldn't so I did...done!


----------



## This is me

chapparal said:


> The 180 is for a person that has given up on the relationship and wants to move on. It is way more likely to assure a break up than a reconcilliation. In other words you use the 180 as a tool to prepare for divorce.
> 
> If you want to try and save your marriage you should read Married Man Sex Life and follow the MAP. Also check out the Divorce Busters website.


I agree and disagree. The 180 is geared to help those who want to move on get a plan to strengthen their resolve. Where I disagree is that it allows us to change, which is the only one we can change, but in doing so, you can sometimes change the wayward. I am proof of that. 

I also disagree that MMSL is good for the wayward. This is good for marriages that need a spark to reiginite, it will not save a wayward marriage.


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## Garry2012

I dunno decimated, not sure where she is on anything. Cell and landline records show no activity.... Planted a VAR today, and looking to install a low cost key logger, and will tap the land line ( no freaking jacks in the house hardly). FB is the main source of contact. And maybe AIM IM, but I can't get access to her phone to jailbreak and track. 

She may fight a divorce, I dunno... She won't talk about anything and I'm in full 180, so I don't initiate convo.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

If you think she's using the phone to cheat then I suggest you end the iPhone for her.

You can cancel the contract.

You could go to the store tell them the phone was lost , get a new phone and transfer her number to it. Then you can likely see what's in the cloud?

You could take her charging cord and paint the contacts with clear nail polish, this will prevent it from working to charge her phone and force her onto the computer ! Make sure you have a keylogger on it.


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## WasDecimated

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

These are good ideas...devious! I love it. The trick is to be more devious then the WS...one step ahead.


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## Chaparral

One poster just grabed the phone and ran. It told him everything.


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## Chaparral

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/49173-drama-continues.html#post839559


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## turnera

Or grab it when she's not looking, hide it well, and just shrug and say 'IDK, where did you leave it?' and when she gives up looking and leaves, you can do whatever you want with it. Then place it where she may have put it, and let her find it again.


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## Garry2012

EVEN that would be hard Turnera, but i may just try. I dont have enough evidence to grab and run just yet. The damn phone is tied to her hip 24/7.


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## turnera

eh, just keep an eye on her; you'll find an opportunity.


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## Garry2012

yeah, i have upped the effort on all fronts.

I suspect a burner phone too...no luck in finding. 

Planted VAR, keylogger tonight


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## Toffer

Garry2012 said:


> yeah, i have upped the effort on all fronts.
> 
> I suspect a burner phone too...no luck in finding.
> 
> Planted VAR, keylogger tonight


Finally!

Way to go!


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## Garry2012

Well, the first var is in, and like everyone thought... Not good. Not enough information, but seems like my wife doesn't love me and wants a divorce. Made a couple references that seems like she was somewhat "involved" with the guy... Such as " don't tell 
ME to get you out of my head" ... And "I'm sure I want a divorce". He is in the process of a divorce or a separation too... Don't think I know him. Sounded to be on the gophone also. Good information... Sad realization. I will put the var back under the couch. 

Hard to hear to words spoken, but necessary.

As expected. She is refusing to go to counciling because she simply doesn't love me- so she is stalling-- which we all guessed--. Funny she told me last week" I do love you and don't want a divorce" yet she is telling this guy the opposite. She wants me to say i want out so its "not her fault". Good news I guess, she doesn't want anything from the house.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

So...do you want to save the marriage or do you want to divorce?


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## Garry2012

i want to save it...but based on her discussion, she is already gone. Said she has purposely not scheduled a MC or IC because simply she doesnt love me anymore, and wont tell me because she expects me to throw her out.

when i suggested an MC back in July when this REALLY got going, she was SO hesitant to go to an MC. I had a clue then it was something more.


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## Trying2figureitout

Draw he line in the sand you have enough evidence of her intentions... do not let her find out about VAR.

You need no other info its black and white.

So 180... ultimatum. 

Make her make a choice and flat out tell her YOU KNOW she doesn't love you and shes into another guy... don't tell her how you know just state it as fact that your are 100% convinced... then ask her flat out what she is going to do about the OM. Tell her you want to talk to him directly and for her to give you RIGHT NOW the 100% truth on her relationship with him.

You have the high ground use it!

Be strong and use the info in a smart fashion.

Make her make and absolute unequivocal choice NOW. Its all or nothing.... Be strong. You know the truth and it doesn't matter how you found out. You need no other info you have enough now. Be decisive.

Be prepared do it without emotions... just state it as fact. If she asks how you know say its obvious and that you are not stupid! Ask her "So whats his name and who is he and how did you meet" Don't leave that confrontation without her telling you her intentions and her actions either back to marriage or to divorce. She'll break as long as you keep pressing her for answers. Do it before they create a cover story... hit her with the confrontation between the eyes.


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## turnera

Lots of waywards are already gone. How many books have you read on the subject? You may want to get more educated to help you with responses.

For example, she's high on her PEA addiction. The only way to get her back is to CUT OFF that flow of PEA from the OM. The most powerful way to get rid of OM is to expose the affair to all her important people so that he becomes a hot potato she has to discard. The sooner the better.


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## Garry2012

I want to know WHO it is....i want to be able to say, who is XYZ? and why have you been talking to him.

Her last exhub did that, and she went balistic, i threatened taht and she when balistic, i will do it, but i have to do it in a calm "you know your family will find out about this" fashion, at the right time.

I cant confront now, too busy at work...but I may take a half day soon, hopefully with a name and more juicy conversations.

Plus, i want to talk to a lawyer first and see what i need to file for "infidelity", and if that makes a difference.


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## Garry2012

been doing the 180---that is one of the BIG reasons she used to tell him that i dont care at all about her.


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## Trying2figureitout

Garry2012 said:


> I want to know WHO it is....i want to be able to say, who is XYZ? and why have you been talking to him.
> 
> Her last exhub did that, and she went balistic, i threatened taht and she when balistic, i will do it, but i have to do it in a calm "you know your family will find out about this" fashion, at the right time.
> 
> I cant confront now, too busy at work...but I may take a half day soon, hopefully with a name and more juicy conversations.
> 
> Plus, i want to talk to a lawyer first and see what i need to file for "infidelity", and if that makes a difference.


Garry you have enough info the VAR you have and the KY... lawer up and be decisive... do it soon. Really it doesn't matter who it is. 

Do you want your wife back? I wouldn't. Shes let another man bang her in a calculated blatant fashion... you deserve much better.

Gather as much evidence as you can now. Build your case.


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## turnera

No, you don't get it. You don't TELL her you are going to tell her family.

You TELL HER FAMILY. After you confront her and tell her to stop cheating, and after she continues cheating anyway. THEN you let them know you're trying to save your marriage and she continues to cheat, and ask them to talk to her. Ask them to show her that she needs to give up OM and give the marriage a FAIR chance - without the OM as a fallback plan - and then, if you two still can't fix the marriage, you will give her a divorce. THAT is the dignified, moral way to handle this. 

Once they start calling her - they'll either say get your husband off my back or they'll say what's the matter with you why are you cheating you're shaming us - she will go ballistic. GOOD. LET her go ballistic. That means that exposing the affair worked. That means that she CARES about them knowing and that she just may give up OM and come back to you.

What have you got to lose? At least this way, if she does divorce you, HER FAMILY knows the truth - that it was she who broke up the family. And you get to retain your dignity and your good name.

And if it works, and she gives him up, you'll have a long road ahead for which you will need to have established yourself as an alpha male who won't take chit from her or anyone else. That's the only way a reconciliation will work. And it starts with exposure. (once you get your evidence)


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## turnera

Garry2012 said:


> been doing the 180---that is one of the BIG reasons she used to tell him that i dont care at all about her.


 Again, learn more about cheaters. This is called fogbabble. It's what these addicts say to justify doing immoral things. IGNORE EVERY WORD OF IT.

Who gives a flip what she says to him?

The ONLY things you need to hear from her are "I'm sorry" and "I will make this up to you."

Until you hear those words, you're working on divorce. AFTER exposing.


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## bandit.45

I simply cannot understand why you won't expose her...

I just don't get it.


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## Garry2012

Yeah, i dont have time to confront her...and i really do want an airtight case when i present to her family...they are my family at this point too...Evidence i have is prob enough, but like i said, cant do it now with work, need a couple of weeks and i will have time...by then i will have lawyered up and mentally prepared....

working on 2 hours sleep....and still in shock--i got hit by a 2x4... NEVER expected to hear that...you all told me so, and yet, i didnt want to believe....guess everyone says that.


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## Garry2012

turnera said:


> Again, learn more about cheaters. This is called fogbabble. It's what these addicts say to justify doing immoral things. IGNORE EVERY WORD OF IT.
> 
> Who gives a flip what she says to him?
> 
> The ONLY things you need to hear from her are "I'm sorry" and "I will make this up to you."
> 
> Until you hear those words, you're working on divorce. AFTER exposing.


Yeah your right...none of it makes sense....all lies and what she wants to believe.


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## Garry2012

I may expose her bandit, i need to absorb all this....


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## turnera

Yep.

If there was a fast forward pill we could give to BHs, so they could skip all the 'MY wife would NEVER do that, I KNOW her,' we would.


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## turnera

Garry2012 said:


> I may expose her bandit, i need to absorb all this....


Exposure: When Should An Affair Be Exposed? - Marriage Builders® Forums

But PLEASE don't go to their forums for help. They will eat you alive. VERY toxic forum.


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## turnera

Garry2012 said:


> I may expose her bandit, i need to absorb all this....


Phase 1: Affair Takes Place 

General Description:

Affairs can happen suddenly and unpredictably or can develop over a long period of time. They can last a very short time or a lifetime.

Unless it is an open affair, in most cases, secrecy, lies and deceit take a direct or indirect toll on the relationships.

The nature of the affair often dramatically changes once the betrayed partner has discovered or is ready to confront the involved partner. The discovery can happen abruptly or it can evolve gradually over a period of time when suspicion grows and there is at last a realization that the affair is indeed taking place and confrontation ensues.

Often the discovery of an affair or the confrontation regarding an affair launches the couple into a marital crisis.
Clinical Notes:

Therapists may be privy to an affair before the uninvolved spouse when the unfaithful partner reveals the secret during individual therapy.

Therapists who are privy to such information should explore with the client his/her attitude, values, history, fears and worries regarding the affair.

Therapists should also try to identify the type of affair it is and sort out if it is driven by addiction, desire to score, midlife crisis, marital dissatisfaction, etc.

Therapists should attempt to be compassionate, understand the historical, cultural, marital, and other forces that may have contributed to the affair.

Risk assessment should be undertaken as part of helping the client explore the options that s/he may want to consider. Physical risk must be considered with women of certain cultures and situations. The reason being that the discovery of a woman's affair by her husband or family can significantly increase the likelihood of the woman being ostracized by her family, friends and community and can also increase the probability of domestic abuse and even murder.

While concern regarding the safety of children and others who may be hurt by the affair and/or its disclosure should be considered, therapists should be careful in imposing their own values on their clients. When therapists have an un-negotiated, moralistic, punitive or negative judgment regarding the affair, they should state it clearly to the client at the beginning of therapy and offer the client referrals to other therapists who may have a different attitude towards affairs.
Phase 2: Discovery, Confrontation and Crisis 

General Description:

When a secretive extramarital affair comes to light, it often launches a marital crisis.

In response to discovery and/or confrontation, the betrayed partner and the unfaithful or involved partner often experience strong emotional responses concerning the affair.

The compromised partner often feels a sense of betrayal, violation, despair, hopelessness, rage, anger, revenge, fear (i.e., AIDS), distrust, depression, etc. These reactions may resemble a response to catastrophic events. Common reactions to the loss of innocence are anguish, grief, distrust, anxiety, and shattered assumptions including obsessively pondering details of the affair; continuously watching for further signs of betrayal; and physiological hyperarousal, flashbacks and intrusive images. The betrayed spouse is often in a kind of shock during this phase.

The involved spouse's feelings may range between shame, remorse, fear, anger, etc. He or she may fear that they will be punished forever for the betrayal while they grieve for the lost dreams associated with the affair. Additionally, the unfaithful partner may experience fear of losing important or meaningful relationships and may experience grief and anguish over the loss of the relationships.

At this stage, the betrayed partner often seeks support and empathy from anyone who will listen. The involved spouse is often upset when the exposure exceeds his or her comfort zone or includes his or her own friends, family and even children.

Basic disclosure of some aspects of the affair usually takes place at this early phase. While X-rated details can be harmful, basic general information of when, where, how long, etc. may be appropriate if requested by the non-involved partner.
Clinical Notes:

Usually people seek help during this phase. More often than not, the betrayed spouse initiates the therapy.

At this stage, the therapist may help the couple realize three important facts:

<LI class=redstar>Affairs are very common.
An affair is _not_ necessarily the end of the marriage.
This is not the time to make major decisions, such as separating, filing for divorce or selling the house.

It is very important for the therapist to help the couple realize the importance of this last point regarding avoidance of decisions effecting the marriage or family.

The therapist may be able to develop a hypothesis at this early phase establishing the type of affair being dealt with. While listening to the couple and reviewing their background information, the therapist should start hypothesizing whether the affair was a result of a sexual addiction, out of control online activities, marital dissatisfaction, retribution, etc.

Once the therapist gains some understanding of the history, nature and meaning of the affair, it may be possible to strategize a course of action with the couple.

Obviously, treatment plans should be constructed according to the clients' history, culture, personalities, type of affair and their stated goals. For example, a clear and admitted "Exit Affair" should be treated very differently from an online affair, sexual addiction or retribution-type affair.

The therapist may guide each spouse to seek support and help from family and friends and help each spouse effectively deal with the, often overwhelming, emotions of betrayal, guilt, shame or anger.

The therapist must take into consideration that sometimes relief is the dominant feeling on the part of the involved, or even the betrayed, partner. The relief often stems from not needing to conceal the secret any longer or it may be a relief from an ambiguous and confusing state of affairs.

The therapist may want to help the betrayed spouse avoid indiscriminately revealing the secret of the affair to every family member and friends of both spouses. Instead, s/he should help the betrayed spouse to seek support from a chosen group of people that are not likely to fuel the fire but support the marriage.
3. Initial Dealing with the Affair 
General Description:

After the initial shock wave following the discovery or initial confrontation has passed, it is time for the couple to gain perspective to become more reflective. 

This is a time where people get some support to normalize their initial and often strong emotional reaction and to start thinking about the meaning and potential implications of the affair for themselves, the marriage and family, including children, parents, in-laws, etc. 

This is a phase that often involves a lot of blame between the spouses with unresolved and often unspoken hurt often coming to the surface. 


It is of utmost importance to the potential positive future of the marriage for the involved spouse to focus ASAP on several initial issues:

Cut off all contact with the lover, if possible.
In an office affair, a complete disconnect is often not possible. In these situations, the involved spouse must promise that the romantic connection will be severed completely and all contact will be short and restricted to business matters.
Make a commitment to future honesty and marital integrity.
Offer a sincere apology. Repeat the apology, as necessary.
Honestly answer legitimate questions regarding safe sex and be willing to take AIDS or other STD tests.
The betrayed spouse may legitimately want to know details about their involved spouse's safe sex practices. These safety issues must be addressed fully. Both spouses may need to perform AIDS or other STD tests. 

One of the most complicated and complex issues at this stage is how to respond to the betrayed spouse's wish to know the many details of the affair. The concern is that if the betrayed spouse is privy to too many graphic and other details of the affair, it may come to haunt him/her and prove destructive to the marriage in the long run. 

After the affair is exposed, revealing some basic and general details is appropriate. This general information may include:

How long did the affair last?
How did it start?
How often did the involved spouse meet with the lover?
Who else knows about the affair?
The mandate of complete and explicit honesty, as advocated by several experts, seems to me unrealistic and potentially dangerous for the following reasons:

Too many specific or graphic details can unnecessarily fuel fear and obsession and can be needlessly haunting to the betrayed spouse for a very long period of time.

Unfaithful women are in increased danger of domestic violence and even murder when an affair is revealed. Adding unnecessary details can increase such dangers.
At this very stage, President Clinton announced that he had chosen to work closely with several clergy members to help him "avoid temptation and heal his marriage." Commitment to the marriage and to dealing with temptations on behalf of the strayed spouse is extremely important at this phase. While the betrayed spouse may still be sitting on the fence regarding the future of the marriage, a commitment to the marriage on behalf of the involved spouse is essential so the process of healing can continue. 

In this third stage, a roadmap is provided for rebuilding the marriage if both partners are willing. Some couples are not ready to re-commit but instead either consider separation or are willing to stay in the limbo of uncertainty. 

At this stage, couples tend to review the marriage from its inception and try to understand what happened and, if possible, why. The reason for the affair and the events that led to it may be clarified. Whether the affair was fueled by a midlife crises, empty nest, sexually withholding spouse, sex addiction or revenge, the likely factors that led to the affair should be acknowledge and attended to. 

The injured partner also has difficult work to do. He or she may need to come down from the pedestal, drop the saint or martyr role, move past the anger and hurt, and, often, hardest of all, be willing to examine his or her role in the underlying marriage problems. 

In order for the process of jump starting the marriage to move forward, the involved partner should continue to apologize, affirm his/her commitment to have no contact with the "other" and affirm his/her commitment to the marriage. The betrayed spouse, hopefully, is now less obsessed with the affair and can focus on the big picture of the marriage and start feeling some forgiveness.

Clinical Notes:

The therapist, at this phase, should focus on implementing the treatment plan that was developed through understanding the context and meaning of the affair and the couple's stated goals. Accordingly, different situations require different treatment plans:
An affair that was driven by retribution, marital dissatisfaction or a withholding spouse should focus on marital therapy geared to increase effective communication, empathy, compassion and love.

A clear exit affair should be followed by therapeutic interventions that are meditative in nature.

An affair that was driven by sexual addiction or by online obsession is most likely to benefit from couple therapy in conjunction with individual treatment for the involved spouse and his or her addictive or obsessive issues.

Therapists should help the couple further identify their concerns, hopes and goals. They should facilitate the individual and joint decision-making process regarding the future of the marriage so it is neither rushed nor impulsive.

If the couple have children, it is of extreme importance that the couple tries first to resurrect the marriage before they plan a separation.

Most family therapists work with the couple together as the primary approach. However, a deeply ambivalent spouse or a severely agitated spouse may also need some individual therapy sessions.

Research has shown that men and women who had affairs and kept the fact from their spouses -- but disclosed it to researchers in anonymous questionnaires -- failed to make much progress after several months of counseling.

If the involved person needs to grieve the loss of the lover in the affair, this should be done privately or during individual sessions with the therapist and not in the presence of the spouse. Therapist should never take a punitive or moralistic stance relative to such grief.

If the betrayed spouse may need some individual therapy due to continued extreme suspicions and insecurity, and/or frequent painful flashbacks, or obsessive scrutiny of the other partner's behavior, especially vis a vis members of the opposite sex, therapists may want to offer such individual consultation or refer if appropriate and/or requested.

The person who had the affair must learn to tolerate distrust by the partner and not become self-righteous or indignant.

The therapist should help couples to develop strategies to reduce suspicion and increase trust.

Therapy should introduce couples to some of the challenges they are facing and articulate the process that may take place to assist healing.

Ambivalence on the part of the betrayed partner should be tolerated at this stage.

One of the hardest tasks for therapists, in general, and especially in infidelity cases, is to help the betrayed partner move beyond the feeling of betrayal and victimization. While the betrayed partner did not cause the affair, it is true in most cases that he or she has passively or actively co-contributed to the events that led to the affair. Sometimes the contribution was to ignore red flags, sometimes it was a matter of being abusive, suspicious, controlling or withholding.

If the couple decides to separate, hopefully the therapist can help them achieve it in a constructive way, especially if children are involved.

It is important that therapists, at this stage, help couples understand the evolution or story line of the marriage and the complex personal, vocational, developmental, familial, etc. elements that may have contributed to the affair.

The clinical interventions must be closely tied to each couple's specific and unique situation. They should not be standard or generic because there is no one size that fits all.

While it is may be premature for the betrayed person to forgive, the goals of forgiveness and letting go should be introduced at this stage.

Without assigning guilt and innocence, each spouse, at this stage, hopefully, with the help of the therapist, would be able to identify the way they have contributed to the infidelity crisis and how each can do things differently in the future.

Therapists should explain that in most cases, recovery cannot begin until contact with the affair partner is terminated. Stopping an affair does not just mean ending sexual intercourse. All personal discussions, coffee breaks and phone calls must also be stopped. When the affair partner is a co-worker, the contact must be strictly business, and necessary or unplanned encounters must be shared with the spouse in order to rebuild trust.

Therapists must explain to the couple that rebuilding trust is an uneven process that often takes three steps forward, two steps back.
4. Beginning again: Building a Stronger Post-Affair Marriage 

General Description:

The fourth and last stage concerns the metamorphosis of the relationship into a mature love. Unlike the falling-in-love stage that characterizes the inception of most marriages, this mature love is based on realistic expectations, knowledge and caring for each other.

Some scholars have pointed out that the initial falling-in-love phase, with all its idealization and unrealistic expectations, is partly responsible f or the prevalence of affairs. Some psychologists have described the falling-in-love state as similar to a psychotic state where reality is distorted and facts are twisted. The idea is that the unrealistic, idealized expectations of the early phase can never be fulfilled and therefore the spouses are inevitably doomed to be deeply disillusioned and disappointed. They then act out their disappointment by having an affair.

In the idealized love phase, the partner does everything right and appears to be your perfect soul mate. It is a phase of a relationship that many people go through, but it is not a phase that lasts forever, nor is it a phase that leads to a lasting, realistic or mature relationship. A later stage in the relationship, called *mature love,* occurs when an individual becomes aware not only of his/her own strengths and weaknesses, but also of their partner's strengths, weaknesses and limitations. A mature person, who is capable of mature love, accepts one's own and the partner's limitations and weaknesses. In mature love, an individual starts to learn how his or her own weaknesses result in difficulties in a relationship. In mature love an individual is willing to consciously work on developing their relationship and each partner consciously works on making their relationship interesting and fulfilling. In mature love, both partners recognize that their relationship will have problems and conflicts and that the conflicts can be seen and used as opportunities for growth and development. At best, they develop the important capacity to agree to disagree.

At this stage, the betrayed partner should have resolved his or her resentment and come to a place of either acceptance or forgiveness.
Clinical Notes:

At this fourth stage, the therapist should help develop mature love, based on realistic expectations, self-knowledge, acceptance of the partner's weaknesses, mutual caring, empathy, compassion and responsibility.

The second therapeutic challenge, at this stage, is to promote an affair-proof marriage.

The therapist should help the couple understand that remembering, regression, suspicions or grief are all normal feelings that may be evoked at different times. However, one should neither indiscriminately share these upsetting feelings with the partner nor always act on them.

At this point, the therapist may want to evaluate the strength of the marriage and vulnerabilities for future infidelity by looking at:
The strength of the marriage, e.g., is it couple-centered rather than child-centered.
The couple's capacity to address and resolve conflicts.
The couple's level of trust and commitment.
Each spouse's level of assumed responsibility.
The couple's capacity to avoid future affairs.

The therapist also works with the couple to develop new or improved communications skills and methods for resolving conflicts, which were previously avoided and submerged in the pre-affair era.

Some couples should be encouraged to begin "dating" again, focus on rebuild trust and bringing joy back into the relationship. They should learn how to spend time alone together and enjoy each other's company.
Forgiveness & Resentment

Ultimately, the key to healing from infidelity involves forgiveness, which is frequently the last step in the healing process.

To forgive is to pardon, exonerate, absolve, make allowances for, harbor no grudge against and bury the hatchet.

The unfaithful spouse can do everything right, be forthcoming, express remorse, listen lovingly and act in a trustworthy manner, and still, the marriage won't mend unless the betrayed person forgives his or her spouse and the unfaithful spouse forgives him or herself.

*Forgiveness* is letting go of anger and resentment.

Forgiveness opens the door to real intimacy and connection.

A sense of injury is an aggrieved feeling about something or towards someone as a result of real or perceived insult, harm or ill-intentioned actions.

One definition of *resentment* is "when one takes the poison, but hopes the other person dies." Resentment, according to this statement, is toxic to the person who feels it and in turn to the marital relationship.

Evidently, forgiveness and letting go of the pain inflicted is of extreme importance in healing from an affair. Holding on to the angry pain is a significant obstacle to mature love.
Infidelity & Affairs: Facts & Myths and What Works, offered by the Zur Institute


----------



## Garry2012

Besides, im not ready for her to freak...ii need her off my accounts, and i want to go to DDay prepared...i got nothing now....we all know she will deny EVERYTHING..say it was a girlfriend....I thought it was the first 2-3 times through...then it hit me...


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## Garry2012

funny, she has an uncle whose wife, just 3 months ago, told him tht she didnt love him anymore...he found receipts etc of her affair. This will be the second marriage this year in this family with a wife that wants to bail.

He has a GPS on the car and has monitored it going to her boyfriends house...is that necessary?

I dont THINk, based on the lack of "juice" in the conversation, that it is sexual yet, but certainly im not ruling it out...she was thrilled at his offer to come warm her up...but she passed on several opportunites to say something more etc.


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## bandit.45

Garry2012 said:


> funny, she has an uncle whose wife, just 3 months ago, told him tht she didnt love him anymore...he found receipts etc of her affair. This will be the second marriage this year in this family with a wife that wants to bail.
> 
> He has a GPS on the car and has monitored it going to her boyfriends house...is that necessary?
> 
> I dont THINk, based on the lack of "juice" in the conversation, that it is sexual yet, but certainly im not ruling it out...she was thrilled at his offer to come warm her up...but she passed on several opportunites to say something more etc.


Who cares? She's having an affair.


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## Garry2012

on a lighter note (and i dont have many) she has wanted me to get a tatoo for a year....i was thinking of kicking off DDay with a tattoo design with her name across the bottom....she how she reacts. She would have to tell me no...but i would like to watch her squirm.


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## turnera

She won't care.

Stop playing games to get her to care. It's beta.


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## maincourse99

best thing I did was kicking my wife out. She was in the fog, so thank goodness wasn't thinking clearly. Now with AP and they are sinking fast financially, but I have my house, car and daughter. take control like everyone is saying. In a few months doing the 180 you'll be a new man.


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## Garry2012

and she isnt either....said on the call "he can have the house and everything, i dont want anything out of it."


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## Garry2012

i know your right, i just cant do it now anyway....with work load, and i do want to prepare....that is where i have an advantage. Suggestions on what i need to do before dday? lock down accounts i know that...credit cards are maxed...no room to go there. 

If i go for the throat with telling the fam, and taking away her cell...wont she then be more inclined to fight for the house?

the other side of it too, i CANT afford to pay for her appt and child care...we are already stretched too far...she would prob live with me? argg or get a walmart job to make ends meet.


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## maincourse99

If you have a home equity line of credit, make sure she can't access it and clean it out.


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## Garry2012

no, im good there...house is in my name only--no LOC.


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## turnera

Advise all your insurance policies, banks, credit cards what's going on, in writing; any change requires your signature.

Notify schools of kids what's going on; they are to notify you if she takes kid out of school. Find any other legal issue that may pop up and put something in writing. 

Make copies of your proof and keep a copy with a friend or lawyer so she can't find it and shred it.

Once you confront her, as SOON as you see her still cheating, you sit down and contact ALL her important people (and OM's) and let them know, all within half an hour. Once she finds out what you're doing (once someone calls her), she may start calling people to put HER spin on it (he's crazy, he's abusive, etc.). They will believe the first person who contacts them. So get it all done pronto.


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## Toffer

Garry,

Forget about the tat!

Get busy removing her name from the credits cards and bank accounts. Talk to a lawyer and keep listening to the VARs and hopefully the keylogger is in place!

EXPOSE as soon as possible after all else is done and FILE NOW


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## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> i know your right, i just cant do it now anyway....with work load, and i do want to prepare....that is where i have an advantage. Suggestions on what i need to do before dday? lock down accounts i know that...credit cards are maxed...no room to go there.
> 
> If i go for the throat with telling the fam, and taking away her cell...wont she then be more inclined to fight for the house?
> 
> the other side of it too, i CANT afford to pay for her appt and child care...we are already stretched too far...she would prob live with me? argg or get a walmart job to make ends meet.


Paying for her to live outside of your marriage isn't your problem really. I've been saying all along that you've had all the evidence you need to proceed, and now you're just stalling yourself because it's going to make things pretty uncomfortable for you. It's like pulling off a band-aid slowly versus ripping it off. You need to just do it and get it over with.


----------



## Garry2012

yeah keylogger in place. ABM, i have to be able to live with this decision, and i am not putting it off for comfort. I want it as airtight as possible, and that certainly doesnt mean i watch this crap for 12 months, but it has been only about 2 weeks that i have my data from--Ihave to explain this to my kids one day, i want it to be solid...not "wll it seemed like" I want it to hit them in the face like it did me.


----------



## Garry2012

you have to plan the attack, and i feel like i have just started....i have much to do before dday.


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> yeah keylogger in place. ABM, i have to be able to live with this decision, and i am not putting it off for comfort. I want it as airtight as possible, and that certainly doesnt mean i watch this crap for 12 months, but it has been only about 2 weeks that i have my data from--Ihave to explain this to my kids one day, i want it to be solid...not "wll it seemed like" I want it to hit them in the face like it did me.


1) YES. You do have to live with the decision. One that SHE is making, not you. Let's put the responsibility back where it belongs, okay?

2) Airtight? I don't understand how much MORE you need to see and/or endure. It's all as clear as a pane of glass. This hasn't been going on two weeks. This has been going on for months now. It started with her telling you she wasn't in love with you anymore... when was that?

3) Explain to the kids? Seriously this isn't necessary. You don't need to explain anything to them. Their mother is the one who needs to give the explanations if there are to be any. She's having an affair. You don't think they have any inkling whatsoever that your marriage is in the sh!tter right now? Kids aren't naive. They read their parents very well, you two don't even have to be having screaming matches and they KNOW something is up. This especially, IMO is a weak excuse not to take immediate swift action.

I have 2 children and I've been in a marriage in which my ex husband was found to be having several affairs. What I did NOT do is delay getting myself and my kids into a healthy environment because of what HE was doing. My attitude was since he decided to check out of the marriage, I get to call the shots in how it ends and it's ending quick because I need peace of mind. I needed it for myself AND for the sake of my kids. They needed a parent who had it together. It's not their fault.

I'm happily remarried and my children are grown (girl 24/boy 19)and one thing I know they've learned from me is that I will be there for them no matter what, and that I will not stand to be disrespected by ANY man. You want your kids to be protected? Then you need to protect them from your wife and her wayward willy nilly attitude about the direction of her life.


----------



## frozen

Garry,

There is so much that has been said that I think you are feeling overwhelmed. I want you to know you are doing great. But please don’t believe it will become easier to “expose” in a few weeks because you think you will have your ducks in a row.

You need to seize the advantage, NOW, and once there, become relentless in forcing your WW to accede to your demands. This will entail breaking down her barriers to you. 

You need to become a warrior that is dropped behind enemy lines. You cannot afford to wait. Assemble everything you have and figure out how it can be weaponized.

•	Get the GPS in her car today. You will likely be able to identify personal info of OM so that you can figure out who it is by identifying the locations your WW is frequenting. If you could swing it, hire a PI or even have a friend follow her.​
•	Use technology. Does WW use Iphone at home via Wi-Fi? If so you can configure router to point to OpenDNS so you can track her web surfing habits.​ 
•	Attack her psyche. WW is in a total state of disconnection from you. She has no idea why she feels the way she does, but by now you should. Your story is textbook Michelle Langley which you know. Use her material from her 2 books by texting your WW the concepts and ideas which are the most challenging to her sense of self. You must keep hammering into her that you do not harbor a false image of her. She is a woman that gave up her sense of self to raise kids and be the perfect wife which she created. Now she is miserable with you because you don’t truly know her, but that is only because she has always lied to you about what she wants and needs just as she is doing now. PUSH this stuff down her throat.​

•	Think *Social Hacking*. You can try texting and calling the Gophone, pretend you are another love interest. Assume she has given this number out to more then one man. Use a free SMS website or your own gophone so she cannot identify you. Keep her off balance so she is less effecting in marginalizaing you.​


“Timing is everything in life.” Your time is now, not in two weeks, or a month. Spend another day or two if necessary but that’s it!!!! .” You see, gathering evidence will only get you so far. There is no proof too solid to be undeniable to a WW. Period. Forget about gathering information for any other reason but to be used as a weapon. The truth will eventually come out anyway.

The trick is to make her think you know more than you actually do. You must put on the best poker face you have. Don’t blackmail but learn how to push until you get what you want. Simply say you know she is lying but won’t tell her why.

You must simply push her till she just wants to tell the truth just to shut you up. Then you will have started the process of bringing her back to the table to talk.


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## Garry2012

yeah i know, i will continue to gather evidence, if possible, but i have all i need to know really. She has noone, other than maybe her OM to shelter her, and she knows it. I have her over a barrel, and she needs to come clean with everything. She wants a separation, she will get divorce papers...if she wants to stop the process for the right reasons (not so she can better stage her leaving), then we will see. I have zero expectation of her stopping it.


----------



## warlock07

Garry2012 said:


> and she isnt either....said on the call "he can have the house and everything, i dont want anything out of it."


She probably does not want to sound as a gold digger to her OM. Don't trust anything she says.

I mean, isn't your "emotional neglect" her main reason ? She will come for the money sooner or later when the gravy train stops and when realizes how much sh!t she is in.

I might have missed it but do you have a GPS on her car?


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## Garry2012

warlock, i almost put one on once i got heard the call..but like alot of folks are saying....what else do i need? i have her on tape saying she doesnt love me and wants a divorce, as well as offering to help OM get his divorce by "splitting them up". I am sort of in limbo as to how much more i want to see. I did put another VAR in her car too, and have the keylogger working.


----------



## Garry2012

when she realizes she cant even afford an attorney, she will start looking for money...her parents wont fund it, they love me- and will think she is a total idiot.


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## frozen

Garry2012 said:


> warlock, i almost put one on once i got heard the call..but like alot of folks are saying....what else do i need? i have her on tape saying she doesnt love me and wants a divorce, as well as offering to help OM get his divorce by "splitting them up". I am sort of in limbo as to how much more i want to see. I did put another VAR in her car too, and have the keylogger working.


Nothing she says is to be believed. She has no idea what she wants she is just in a fog and going down a road she can't exit in fear of what might happen if she started being honest. If you knew who OM was and notified his SO you might find that he is just stringing your wife along. If he pulled out of the affair your wife would suddenly be faced with the real possibilityof being alone.


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## Garry2012

yeah, i agree frozen...she even offered to break them up because the separation was not leading to a divorce, apparently fast enough for her.


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## southern wife

Garry2012 said:


> yeah, i agree frozen...she even offered to break them up because *the separation was not leading to a divorce, apparently fast enough for her*.


So why keep dragging it out? :scratchhead:


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## Garry2012

me? i just found out monday...i need to prepare...im not ready for her yet, i need to remove off accounts, meet with a lawyer etc. This is prob the worst two weeks work wise i have had in 3 months....figures, i just cant to it now....

yet, i cant focus on work at all either


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## Garry2012

the OM seemed to not give good reasons, she seemed displeased with his reasons for not moving faster


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## bfree

How do you know the OM and his SO are separated? Because that's what he tells your WW? Unless you've confirmed it on your own I wouldn't believe that either.


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## Garry2012

true bfree, i know...that is what he is telling W. I live in TX anyway, no such thing as a legal separation...so its just a "trial" anyway


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## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> the OM seemed to not give good reasons, she seemed displeased with his reasons for not moving faster


This is probably because he's not leaving his wife, and your wife feels that you're onto her in some way and needs to do something about it quick.

The house of cards are coming down and the safe place she thinks she will have to land won't be there. Not that it's your problem...


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## Garry2012

yeah, and she is still going deeper and deeper into the fog. She will realize what a good effing life she had when she is busting her butt to make her rent....not as nice a hitting the gym and hanging out at the house.


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## bandit.45

Just don't expect the reality to hit her for a long time.

It may be a good six months or a year after divorce that she"ll come to her senses. 

That's what's happening to my ex now. It's sad really.


----------



## A Bit Much

Fog shmog. Some women are just plain stupid.

What I wouldn't give to be home all day with nothing to do but go to the gym and run errands. I have access to $ to shop with if I want, a husband who works his ass off for me and the family.... what more do you want?


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## Garry2012

Yeah, i know bandit....and that will be sad to me too..very.

ABM, AND, AND despite how "controlling" i am, i dont ask where she is or what she is doing. she has 5 hours a day, without kids...but gripes about the 2-3 hours she has them, and putting dinner together is a MAJOR chore. I got 0 dinner prepared for me last night...she is really going deep into the fog....guess i need to brush up on my basic cooking again.

ive told her many times, ill switch with you, please go get a high paying job!!! but she just says how i would hate it too, its draining etc...i just dont understand lol


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## Garry2012

hate to tell her, OM eats dinner too.....sooo THAT will still be an issue i guess...


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## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah, i know bandit....and that will be sad to me too..very.
> 
> ABM, AND, AND despite how "controlling" i am, i dont ask where she is or what she is doing. she has 5 hours a day, without kids...but gripes about the 2-3 hours she has them, and putting dinner together is a MAJOR chore. I got 0 dinner prepared for me last night...she is really going deep into the fog....guess i need to brush up on my basic cooking again.
> 
> ive told her many times, ill switch with you, please go get a high paying job!!! but she just says how i would hate it too, its draining etc...i just dont understand lol


OK so the tradeoff to a cushie lifestyle is a so called controlling husband? UM... not a problem. I'm not the passive type so that wouldn't bother me. I can hold my own pretty darn well.

Start pulling out recipes for dinner. Stop off and get what you need before going home, and get to work if nothing's on the stove or pick up dinner for yourself from restaurant. I wouldn't let that phase me in the least.


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## Garry2012

i know ABM, she has REALLY fogged up in the last week i think....


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## Garry2012

i fear that i will feel compelled to tell her i VAR her convo so she comes clean, i would like to know if anyone has done that and does it matter? she would be pissed i suppose, but who cares.


----------



## WasDecimated

Garry2012 said:


> i fear that i will feel compelled to tell her i VAR her convo so she comes clean, i would like to know if anyone has done that and does it matter? she would be pissed i suppose, but who cares.


Don't reveal your sources! Don't quote her either or she will suspect.

I tipped my hand to early and she took it underground. She will work around your VAR or always suspect it. She was pissed that I was GPS'ing her and would through it back in my face. Then she figured a way around it...having her boyfriend pick her up and leave her car where she said she was going.


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## Trying2figureitout

Don't reveal anything! Keep her guessing for all she knows you are a social engineering mind reader.

Don't give up anything to her. She needs to feel out of control.


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## Garry2012

ok...i wont...

after the divorce?I want her to know i nailed her good.


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## frozen

Trying2figureitout said:


> Don't reveal anything! Keep her guessing for all she knows you are a social engineering mind reader.
> 
> Don't give up anything to her. She needs to feel out of control.


you will have to make her believe you know without telling her how. Otherwise the less will keep coming. As a rule of thumb once you have her admitting things back off a bit, maybe for a night , then resume telling her you know she hasn't come clean on everything. You will see it will break her down every time she thinks she got off easy but you hot her again will wear down her resolve.

You can let mislead her several ways, by making her think a friend saw her driving somewhere, or she left her phone unlocked and you saw a text come in, etc.... 
one thing for certain is your desire to believe her is your weakness. Use this forum to judge the veracity of her claims.


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## Garry2012

boy your right there frozen....really the whole situation has been revealed to my blind eyes with the help of everyone on here...i really cant thank everyone enough...though harsh at times, i have learned so much here....


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## Trying2figureitout

Garry2012 said:


> ok...i wont...
> 
> after the divorce?I want her to know i nailed her good.


Why revenge?

You are better than that Garry...don't give her anything let her mind squirm. It'll drive her nuts and 
that's better.

She'll live in her own hell and always wonder...how'd he know?
Get ready to move on to someone who deserves you.


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## Garry2012

i have a good deal i may be willing to bargain with. if she wants to withhold information, she will be phoneless, gymless in a motel, wondering what grocery store she will work at to pay her car and insurance payment.

I may be willing to help her transition, not sure...but she turns in the burner phone, signs over her rights to my house and assets, shows me her iphone data, and give me all the OM info.


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## Garry2012

i do work for the phone company, so i can "taint" my convo so that it seems like i got it here.


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## Trying2figureitout

Garry2012 said:


> i have a good deal i may be willing to bargain with. if she wants to withhold information, she will be phoneless, gymless in a motel, wondering what grocery store she will work at to pay her car and insurance payment.
> 
> I may be willing to help her transition, not sure...but she turns in the burner phone, signs over her rights to my house and assets, shows me her iphone data, and give me all the OM info.


That sounds fair...play hardball see if you can get her to come clean. Have fun.


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## Garry2012

yeah..not a fun game, but i think i can force most of her hand. also 

If i can get his name and number i can get alot of the contact info...not that it matters...but i want to know is all.

and i want the house..which is a layup to her i think.


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## Trying2figureitout

Garry2012 said:


> yeah..not a fun game, but i think i can force most of her hand. also
> 
> If i can get his name and number i can get alot of the contact info...not that it matters...but i want to know is all.
> 
> and i want the house..which is a layup to her i think.


Garry would you take her back if she came clean?


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## frozen

Garry2012 said:


> ok...i wont...
> 
> after the divorce?I want her to know i nailed her good.


I'm telling you this situation can turn around and result in a relationship you never thought possible. It can also continue to spiral out of control and end in acrimonious divorce. I know which you prefer.

So many cases on this forum when the husband allowed separation or backed off for fear they would be pushing their wives to choose OM. 

Keep hammering away at her letting her know that she is throwing it all away because she won't come clean with the truth. Acknowledge you see how much she has changed but that you are capable of loving her no matter what. But to do so she must admit that you are not a mind reader and she must learn to become honest and direct with her needs and feelings. 

You can start with texts to her right now. Just tell her that you know what's going on is because she believes you don't know who she is now but it doesn't have to be that way.


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## Garry2012

would i take her back? not just for that: there would be no privacy, a promise to start working on it, and she has to love me....dont think it will happen..she was pretty clear about no love for me. 

frozen, maybe...but i dont have time for a "text war" which is what will happen, she will shut down and just stop texting..happend a fe times before


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## frozen

Look you can't fall into the trap of the blame game. She will go there right away.

From what you described you both shared deep feelings at one time. The problem is all she can feel right now is resentment towards you for not being prince charming. Happiness comes from within. She drank the kool-aid and believed if she was the dutiful SAHW and did all those domestic things you would know through intuition what she was thinking, feeling, and needing.

Take the threats off the table. Not that you won't tell her family at some point but the threats only serve to raise her defensive barrier. I am positive that your texting was all about accusations and defensiveness. I am saying be relentless in your persistence for truth but keep reminding her that you know the truth. 
The 180 relies on her coming to the realization that you don't live for her and life will go on for you. It also drives home to ww the fact she is giving up something valuable. You need to be the strong one because she will often give up and think the easy way out is to divorce. But in most cases she won't be trading up and will repeat all the mistakes of the past. Read the books 2 told you about and become an expert on your wife's psyche and ego. You must find a way to push her to the truth without raising her wall. You do that by saying things to her that prove you know her better than she does.

If you can do that you will get all the promise and apologies you need. Believe me that's just the tip of the iceberg of all the work you will have to do but don't worry about that now. you will do the work otherwise your next relationship will be a repeat of this one.


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## Garry2012

i agree, the threats at this point are pointless. She wants to be free...if i were to try to work it out, she would need to remove all passwords etc. I think she would NOT like that at all. I see what you mean, and will look into those books.


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## Garry2012

would it benefit for her to read it as well? if i can convince her to do it?

I just dont think she will listen to me at all these days...she is totally gone.


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## bandit.45

Garry2012 said:


> would it benefit for her to read it as well? if i can convince her to do it?


No. Not while she's in her fog. It will just make her think you are judging and controlling her more.


----------



## frozen

Garry2012 said:


> would it benefit for her to read it as well? if i can convince her to do it?
> 
> I just dont think she will listen to me at all these days...she is totally gone.


She needs to turn the corner first. What Bandit said. 

Your in a really tough spot because once you tried to expose her she went into overdrive to protect herself from her fears. That's why the longer you wait to start pushing the more you risk her building more walls. 

IMO time is the enemy.


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## Garry2012

if i start pushing now with texts etc, and pushing for a "talk", i will not have read the book, and wouldnt it be better to have divorce papers so shes starts realizing the reality?


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## Garry2012

in order for me to "start dialogue" im giong to have to initiate 100%, which means the 180 is abandoned other than being strong.


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## Garry2012

tell her i know she is talking to om?

i feel so unprepared to start "the talk" now.


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## frozen

Check your PM, read the material, then come back. I think you will have a better perspective on what is going on in her head and be more confident and knowing about how to reach her.


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## frozen

I think the 180 is great but your kind of in circumstances that requires more direct action due to how things have unfolded. 180 would have been the ticket 6-9 months ago but in her fog she may not even notice. So you will have to modify the parts that tell you to ignore and not initiate conversation because she isnt looking anyway. You're still going to do most of the rest.


----------



## frozen

Garry2012 said:


> if i start pushing now with texts etc, and pushing for a "talk", i will not have read the book, and wouldnt it be better to have divorce papers so shes starts realizing the reality?


No! not yet. Everything she is doing is to avoid making decisions herself. I understand the psychological effect by serving her but if you do then your actions will be opposite to what you will be saying. Within a week you will either see results or you will go 180 full swing. 

The point your rhetoric isn't getting through because it is threatening to her. You need to alter it - you can wear her defenses down if she does not sense that you are blaming her for how she feels, and if she starts to believe you know her better then she thinks you do. 

If she turns her phone off and walks away, well, you will really have to start walking. But if you do that first the options I a trying to present will not be available.


----------



## turnera

Garry2012 said:


> when she realizes she cant even afford an attorney, she will start looking for money...her parents wont fund it, they love me- and will think she is a total idiot.


 Please please PLEASE listen to this one bit of advice: If you think they love you, go to them RIGHT NOW and tell them the truth. Before SHE goes to them with her LIE. 

Please trust me, with 10 years of experience in this - if they hear her lie first, they will believe HER and you will be GONE.


----------



## turnera

Garry2012 said:


> i fear that i will feel compelled to tell her i VAR her convo so she comes clean, i would like to know if anyone has done that and does it matter? she would be pissed i suppose, but who cares.


 No!

Do you know the Plan? How it works? It works like this:

Gather evidence. Make a copy and save it at someone's house; save an electronic copy of it in one file.
Fix your bank accounts and cards so she can't take money out.
Confront her, tell her to stop.
When you find out she hasn't stopped, you immediately sit down and call ALL her important people (whose respect she craves); tell them the truth, offer to send them proof. Your electronic proof. Also call OM's wife, parents, siblings, and tell them what he's doing. You do this all at once, in one hour or less. Because once she finds out what you're doing, she's likely to start calling the rest of the people, trying to beat you to them, and tell them that you're crazy, you're abusive, she's afraid of you, OM is just a friend but you've gone berserk and accused her of cheating with him... get the picture?
Then you sit back and wait. She will scream, accuse, we can tell you all the things she's going to say - it's a script, they all do it. Just wait it out. Say nothing more than 'I'm trying to save my marriage.' That is all.
Then, she will either end the affair or continue it. if the former, you will set new boundaries; if the latter, you will file for divorce. 
Even then, it's not over. Once she realizes you're serious, you will suddenly start looking more valuable, interesting, important. But you have to be willing to file.
The rest is up to you.


----------



## Garry2012

I think it would blow up beyond expectations... Her ex husband did tt
That... She has told me ( when In love) that doing that is unexceptable and infuriate her. I think her lie will be that she just doesn't love me anymore. I will contact a couple of them before our "talk" so thy know the story before it happens.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Garry2012 said:


> would i take her back? not just for that: there would be no privacy, a promise to start working on it, and she has to love me....dont think it will happen..she was pretty clear about no love for me.


That's just the fog and the drug addiction talking. Women usually can't love two men at the same time. So they convince themselves that you are the Devil and they can't possibly love you. 

Once the OM is out of the picture, she goes through withdrawal, and suddenly she remembers you're in the room. As long as he's there, she can't see you. Let alone love you.


----------



## turnera

Garry2012 said:


> if i start pushing now with texts etc, and pushing for a "talk", i will not have read the book, and wouldnt it be better to have divorce papers so shes starts realizing the reality?


 There is only ONE thing you push for at this point - no more OM. Period. You WILL NOT DISCUSS ANYTHING as long as she is seeing OM. Got it?


----------



## turnera

frozen said:


> The point your rhetoric isn't getting through because it is threatening to her. You need to alter it - you can wear her defenses down if she does not sense that you are blaming her for how she feels, and if she starts to believe you know her better then she thinks you do.


This needs to be a show of strength of YOU. Not about her. YOU will not accept cheating in your marriage. So if your wife cheats, you will LEAVE her. Period. Not about her. About your wife. That way, she can't make it about her. 

It's called boundaries. YOUR boundary is you won't accept a cheating wife. If she is willing to stop cheating, you're willing to keep her.

This has to be in your hands, ok?


----------



## turnera

Garry2012 said:


> I think it would blow up beyond expectations... Her ex husband did tt
> That... She has told me ( when In love) that doing that is unexceptable and infuriate her. I think her lie will be that she just doesn't love me anymore. I will contact a couple of them before our "talk" so thy know the story before it happens.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 So what? You can't live like this, can you? Do what you have to do and STOP WORRYING ABOUT HER REACTION.


----------



## Garry2012

No, she will end it or move out and I file.... She WANTS me to file. .she wants out. I will tell a couple key members
Of her family who can take it... Her mother would pass out... I can't do that. I am rapidly getting to the point of letting her go. As ong as we. An amicably share the kids... That's a bridge she will
Burn...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Garry2012 said:


> No, she will end it or move out and I file.... She WANTS me to file. .she wants out. I will tell a couple key members
> Of her family who can take it... Her mother would pass out... I can't do that. I am rapidly getting to the point of letting her go. As ong as we. An amicably share the kids... That's a bridge she will
> Burn...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not sure why people insist on sharing the kids my wife can have them LOL. J/k


----------



## turnera

Garry2012 said:


> No, she will end it or move out and I file.... She WANTS me to file. .she wants out. I will tell a couple key members


Great! Let her move out. Kids stay with you at their HOME. And she pays for herself from now on. 

WAKEUP CALL.


----------



## MrK

Garry2012 said:


> No, she will end it or move out and I file.... She WANTS me to file. .she wants out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And we knew this since page 1. Now we're 17 pages into it and this is how far we've come? Are you kidding me?


----------



## Garry2012

MRK, this is almost my ONLY form of discussion...i have no family, and one VERY busy BF who has helped me where he can.


----------



## WasDecimated

Gary2012...any updates?


----------



## Sigma Uber Alles

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah she is certainly in a fog. *I was the guy that did anything she wanted to make her happy...*but now i never loved and and hurt her so much 15 years ago that NOW she need out. She doesnt see it, and i expect wont for a year or two, then reality will hit...sadly.



But are you beginning to see the error of your ways? Bolded for your convenience.

(Apologies if I seem harsh, but I've been in your shoes before and this is possibly the most important truth any male can learn.)


----------



## Sigma Uber Alles

turnera said:


> She won't care.
> 
> Stop playing games to get her to care. It's beta.


:iagree:


----------



## Garry2012

The only update i have is of growth. With much prodding from a member here, i have read "living in limbo", and she hits the mark 100%. I am coming to terms with the fact that my wife really is a cheater, and has been preparing for this for several months--thus i find it hard to believe it has not gone to PA. My goal is to collect whatever evidence i can that this is a PA....if it is, i will not reconcile. If i can only prove EA, i may consider MC--as i think she is salvagable. However, my job will slow down this week, i have a divorce atty appt on wednesday.

she will fight a divorce--initially i think, thinks it too rash (and embarrassing), but i am not doing the separation route--we all know why.


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## Sigma Uber Alles

Garry, You are almost certainly correct that there is more than an EA going on. I empathize with your situation since I have walked in your shoes. You obviously want to salvage your marriage, but please remember that your wife is in full lymbic fog mode (*she is under the influence of powerful midbrain compounds no different than a drug addict*), which means that any attempt by you to beg, plead, or reason with her about why she should want to "drop her habit" and work things out with you *will only serve to drive her further away*. 

Your best course of action is to cut off all support you give her, prepare for divorce, and move on in life without her. Unless she directly contacts you asking for reconciliation, you should ignore her. I know this sounds counterintuitive, but if you "pursue" her at this time, you will certainly drive her away.

Your only hope of saving the situation is to be strong, maintain your boundaries and course in life and present her with the picture of a man who is in control and not weak. Begging, pleading, or rationalizing with her is displaying weakness.


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## Garry2012

Yeah, and i feel like a total fool..i have buried my head in the sand for WAY to long. This should have been addressed back in July...but i was naive and trusting...and she took it to her advantage. I want to prove there is more than an EA, if i can--i can move one and i wont look back. She will, as they always seem to, vehemiently deny any PA, but i cant think that this much time has passed, and she hasnt done ANYTHING??, especially when i suspect he is local, and she has all the freedom for 5 hours a day. Pisses me off that i have to spend so much $$ to catch her...i know she feels guilty and is using me, but just tell me so i can move on--gotta be the most frustrating thing there is. 

the VAR i did get was very good, but only to tell me her feelings and intentions, not the juice i need to file under infidelity.


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## turnera

Hire a PI. Best bang for your buck.


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## Garry2012

better than just buying a GPS?


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## turnera

Would you rather confront her with a picture of her in OM's arms or a print-out of where her car was?


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## Garry2012

both...i may slap a gps on tonight...and watch...if she goes outside of a pretty defined area (stores/gym/preschool) ill know what she is doing. Ideally would like to greet her at the door as she is leaving...taht would be interesting.

though, there is the possiblity he is going to see her...she is alone for 5 hours in a house.


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## turnera

Install a nanny cam near the door. Or a VAR.


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## Garry2012

yeah, i was just looking at cams...lol. I have one VAR in the house, and another in her car. I move the car one to the bathroom occasionally too. 

tough to hide a cam, unless i can get a very small one...but i would like to get a look at what is going on there.


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## keko

Hire either a PI or have a close friend/relative tail her with a camera in hand. Other methods will also get you results but these would be the quickest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy

Your into;
(2) VAR @ $150
(1)[email protected]$350 including subscription with real time
(1) or (2) pen cameras @ what $50 each..call it $100.
total = $600

Your $400 away from $1000 the cost for a PI for the weekend.

Since you already invested go ahead and get the GPS and the pen cameras. it will at least save you about $400. what sucks is the emotional torture you will go thru compiling the evidence. 

A weaker man would break under the VAR evidence, talking crap about you. Thats what nice about the PI, there is no emotion involved, they get the good and hand it over to you. 

You don't have to spend weeks of torture trying to get the smoking gun, you get only as much as you can take and confront. The PI will make sure you get the "juicy stuff". It costs, and risky it may take onther grand to really catch her.

I think if you have done your home work, you can direct the PI to all the possiblities, then basicly you pay him to find her, follow her and snap a few pictures. 

I would get the GPS, then the PI won't charge you so much. Hell he might give you a break in barrowing his, along with his pen cameras. The point is the easier you make the PI's job the cheaper it is for you.

If you know she is meeting the OM, say for the weekend and have your wife's reservation, it won't cost as much for the PI to hang out at the hotel for the day and take some photoes. But if the PI has to spend a boat load of time it could cost you up to $2500.

Most guys take the risk of being labled a staker and try to follow their cheating wifes, usually get caught cuz they react to what they see. Like banging on the motel room door ask for his wife to come out with his kids in the car.

If the PI route is viable I would go for it. You can spend your time on dating sites looking for her replacement while the PI does his job.LOL


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## Shaggy

Use the GPS. Because they are having a PA. She wouldn't be wanting a D without having test driven her new true love.

Sorry, but its PA, and the GPS will help you find out when where they are meeting.

Are you sure he isn't coming to your house?

Have you considered a home semen test for her panties?

My advice is typically not to confront her directly, instead expose on the OMs side first to his family and wife.


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## Garry2012

No, i will not confront her until i have GOOD evidence. I agree, i put the GPS on this am, and can monitor from work. She will be going out two times this weekend, i will watch gps and may follow if i can get the kids watched and i know she is somewhere she shouldnt be. 

She is pretty locked down on finances, she only has about $30 that i know of, and no access to a CC that i cant see--which she knows and has been careful to avoid suispicious charges. 

I want to get her pattern of visitation, and find where she is going, then either hire a PI or follow her and take the pics. The good thing, is i dont think she knows im onto her...so the VAR with the juicy details is still an option.

Pisses me off-- dont have the money for this ****, especially with Xmas coming up soon and 3 kids.

so far im in 2 VAR-$70, GPS ($120) and key logger ($100) so about 300 total. And i set up the Cain and Able attack, but havent perfected that yet.


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## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> No, i will not confront her until i have GOOD evidence. I agree, i put the GPS on this am, and can monitor from work. She will be going out two times this weekend, i will watch gps and may follow if i can get the kids watched and i know she is somewhere she shouldnt be.
> 
> She is pretty locked down on finances, she only has about $30 that i know of, and no access to a CC that i cant see--which she knows and has been careful to avoid suispicious charges.
> 
> I want to get her pattern of visitation, and find where she is going, then either hire a PI or follow her and take the pics. The good thing, is i dont think she knows im onto her...so the VAR with the juicy details is still an option.
> 
> Pisses me off-- dont have the money for this ****, especially with Xmas coming up soon and 3 kids.
> 
> so far im in 2 VAR-$70, GPS ($120) and key logger ($100) so about 300 total. And i set up the Cain and Able attack, but havent perfected that yet.


Mine isn't the popular opinion here when it comes to this sort of thing. I wouldn't be spending any money for the James Bond gear. That's what you have a gut instinct for. It's built in.

If it makes you feel better to do all this then by all means go for it. Spend spend spend away gathering evidence of what you already know to be true.


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## Garry2012

She will just pile it onto the "jealous monster" pile i have. I dont want to file for D on a "hunch and a gut feeling"--but your right...everything is there--and honestly, i dont need to gather anything..but i want it, i want the proof, i need the proof.

Its kinda like the WMD arguement..Bush didnt have proof...so he looked stupid when it was all said and done. Maybe the White House had a hunch and a gut feeling, but they may have covered it up enough that we looked like morons....same thing to me.


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## Toffer

Garry,

Does infidelity make a difference in your stste?


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## Garry2012

I will get clarification tomorrow from the atty. What i think is it just pertains to the assets, which she said on the VAR she doesnt want anything. So prob not alot, but this will give me what i need to file with conviction, and with no hesitation or regret.

If i dont get anything, then maybe i would consider recon, but if i do, i would not.


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## turnera

You could just go up to her and say 'ya know, it's obvious you're not into me any more, so I'm moving on. If you change your mind, let me know, but I deserve better than this.' Best way EVER to get her to sit up and notice YOU over OM.

After all, what you have isn't working, right?


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## A Bit Much

Been there done that, bought the t-shirt. I'm only offering an opinion from being in the same spot as you, with the exception that I'm the betrayed wife in this scenario. I didn't use any spyware. Just my common sense.


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## Garry2012

i need to know, i need to know whether she crossed that bridge or not. She would deny it until the end of time- as they all do.


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## turnera

Then line up a standby babysitter, let your work know you may need to be in and out for a couple weeks, and get ready to follow her.


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## Garry2012

she would deny me that BS status, and label me a control freak as always...ive been right all this time.

We all know she just may come back in 6 months and wish she never did all this, and i would have to live with a hunch that she did something.

Your right,i know she just doesnt love me, thats enough to walk away...


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## A Bit Much

Well do what you must.

Seeking to do it is as bad as the act IMO. I dont' see the difference. The thought is in your head to betray me, and that's not okay under any circumstances. I may after time be able to get past it, but I can't trust again knowing you even went there to begin with... without clueing me in on how bad you felt or how unhappy you were. 

Hope you find what you seek Garry.

ETA: Mine didn't tell me how unhappy he was he just acted out. At least your wife DID tell you she didn't love you anymore. What you don't know is was it before she started the sneaky behavior or after.


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## Garry2012

we actually have a babysitter across the street, or i can take them to a "day care" that stays open until 10 i think.


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## Garry2012

I know, but i dont even have a "seeking to do" really. This is not easy, i am basically trying to catch someone who was my bestfriend for 12 years, i want to be validated in my suspicions...not just let her off the hook with "im sorry i dont love you anymore". Though that is enough i know.



A Bit Much said:


> Well do what you must.
> 
> Seeking to do it is as bad as the act IMO. I dont' see the difference. The thought is in your head to betray me, and that's not okay under any circumstances. I may after time be able to get past it, but I can't trust again knowing you even went there to begin with... without clueing me in on how bad you felt or how unhappy you were.
> 
> Hope you find what you seek Garry.


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## turnera

Garry2012 said:


> not just let her off the hook with "im sorry i dont love you anymore".


You mean YOU don't love HER anymore? Why would you say that?

Just say 'I know you aren't making any effort to meet my needs and I need more than that. If you change your mind, and I haven't moved on already, let me know; we'll see what happens.'

_We want what we can't have and we take for granted what comes easily._


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## Garry2012

No, that is what SHE will say.


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## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> I know, but i dont even have a "seeking to do" really. This is not easy, i am basically trying to catch someone who was my bestfriend for 12 years, i want to be validated in my suspicions...not just let her off the hook with "im sorry i dont love you anymore". Though that is enough i know.


Of course it's not easy. That's not what this is about. This is all about being very uncomfortable for a while. This is about not being mutually on the same page, even after 12 years together. How did it get to this? The VAR's, the PI's, the burner phone... how did it get to this without YOU being aware of how bad things were? Did she pull the wool over your eyes for 12 years? Did you ignore her for 12 years? What really happened here? 

The bottom line is she's checked out on you. You can run around like a chicken with your head cut off now, or really see her as she is... CHECKED OUT OF YOUR RELATIONSHIP. Without a job or any money of her own, she's in a way your prisoner. If money wasn't the issue, believe me she would have packed and moved out on you. I just want you to see things as they are and not as you would like them to be. This didn't just happen in the last few weeks, it's been ongoing for months and maybe years if you really think about it.


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## the guy

I think for some folks, its that smoking gun they need to find that helps validate the next step. Its this smoking gun that help when the wayward comes back after months of fun with the affair partner that confirm that taking them back is off the table.

Its like it confirms the waywards capacity and makes moving on just a little bit more easier and continue to move on when they come crawling back.


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## Garry2012

yeah, your right....this has been a serious issue for at least 6-8 months. I think the "crisis" or whatever you want to call it, began a couple years ago. She officially checked out back in probably April, and planned it/thought of it months before that. I should have really known by July when she needed space, but i was clueless as to what that meant, and where she was emotionally. So, for a couple months i gave her space, and when i asked again in October, she still needed space, if not more. Thats when i finally thought something is seriously wrong, and the MLC or whatever you want to call it is bad. Had i read "living in limbo" a year ago, i would have confronted her in July.....i think its too late now.


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## turnera

Garry2012 said:


> No, that is what SHE will say.


 So what?


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## turnera

Make sure she can't take any money from y'all's accounts without your permission.


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## Garry2012

yeah, i have been watching that. she makes deposits to my account, so i a hesitant to do that until i hit her all at once.

i have purposely not been paying down the CC because she has to be taking out money here and there so she can buy stuff under the radar, that too will dissapear soon.


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## Garry2012

The bottom line is she's checked out on you. You can run around like a chicken with your head cut off now, or really see her as she is... CHECKED OUT OF YOUR RELATIONSHIP. Without a job or any money of her own, she's in a way your prisoner. If money wasn't the issue, believe me she would have packed and moved out on you. I just want you to see things as they are and not as you would like them to be. This didn't just happen in the last few weeks, it's been ongoing for months and maybe years if you really think about it.[/QUOTE]

I do know she has checked out, but your right, i was in denial for a few weeks. Everyone here has helped me, alot, to pull me from the denial and the self-questioning position i was in. 

If she just wants out, i can be civil...if she simply doesnt love me, i can live with that and maybe reconcile when/if she emerges from the fog in a year or so--providing i have not moved on. But if she is playing the games that we all know she is, but i cant prove, her stuff would be on the front porch tomorrow with no iphone and no sympathy, and no chance of coming back. THAT is why i want evidence of the inpropriety. In addition to the fact that family will wonder why the heck i up and filed for divorce when we looked like such a great couple even over the summer at times. She will point the finger at the "filer".


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## A Bit Much

Burner phone. No need for that if you already have an iPhone. 2 reasons to have one:

1) drug dealer

2) tool to conduct an affair

She told you she didn't love you anymore. She's not interested in being with you as husband and wife. You guys still have sex? What about that?


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## Garry2012

I know, i have the reasons i want to let her go now, i do...plenty. Extra phone, we dont even sleep in the same bed, she isnt in love with me, she is planning a life without me. 

I have zero expectation of a life together. But how i handle this will depend on what she is doing. Frankly,i really just want to know how deep she is with this guy, and i know she will never tell me.


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## Toffer

"In addition to the fact that family will wonder why the heck i up and filed for divorce when we looked like such a great couple even over the summer at times. She will point the finger at the "filer". 

Tell them the truth. You files because she said she doesn't love you any more


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## A Bit Much

> In addition to the fact that family will wonder why the heck i up and filed for divorce when we looked like such a great couple even over the summer at times. She will point the finger at the "filer".


Why do you even CARE what your family will think? Are they in your relationship? NO. Write them a letter detailing everything you've been through the last 3 weeks if it makes you feel better about being the 'filer'. 

She wants OUT and has no means to do it. You're holding onto her hoping she'll change her mind and go back to the person you thought you knew last year at this time. 

It's a mystery. How do you make her love you and want you again? Do you think waiting her out will work? That after some time, she'll forget all about what she said to you. What about what she said to someone ELSE that you have evidence of about you? You want to live with that? You're sleeping with the enemy and making excuses for why you should keep doing it.


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## Garry2012

No, your completely misunderstanding me. I am not holding onto her, much less hoping she will change--i think it will come, but im not putting my life on hold for a year or two to find out. 

she does want out..plain and simple. HOW i let her out is my challenge. I would help her transition if it were just "i dont love you anymore". She is still the mother of my children and we have alot of good history. But if i can get something, something to prove she has really done me wrong, and i dont have that quite yet, then it becomes the agressive "get the heck out" and dont look back. I would disconnect her phones, give her 0 money and feel ok. 

Either way i am confident I will be the one who files, she is in limbo.

I do care what her family thinks....we are very close. I can say she doesnt love me anymore, and that would suffice, but i want to know...


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## turnera

Garry2012 said:


> But if i can get something, something to prove she has really done me wrong, and i dont have that quite yet, then it becomes the agressive "get the heck out" and dont look back. I would disconnect her phones, give her 0 money and feel ok.


So...if she just doesn't love you any more, you would feel guilty cutting off the money?


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## A Bit Much

> HOW i let her out is my challenge.* I would help her transition if it were just "i dont love you anymore*.


That's not what you're doing. You're not helping her transition and she HAS told you she doesn't love you anymore.



> if i can get something, something to prove she has really done me wrong


Telling you she's not in love with you then telling some strange man the same and putting plans together to leave you isn't doing you wrong?



> I do care what her family thinks....we are very close.


Then you shouldn't have any trouble running the last few weeks of your marriage and the deterioration of it down to them letter by letter. I would ask what you're waiting for? She made an announcement. What are you supposed to do with that, other than react? How you react isn't to ease her pain, why would it be? She's not concerned with hurting you. She's also not concerned with watering the grass she's already standing on. For her it's greener somewhere else.

Being rejected is being wronged. Being lied to is being wronged. Being disrespected is being wronged. You have evidence of a conversation being had about you and the desperation in her voice about getting AWAY from you. That's wrong. 

You will not catch her in the act. She has been clever enough to manage to conduct this for months without you having any idea how serious it was. I'm sure she's not going to just slip up and hand you a solid reason to divorce her. Not if she's interested in preserving her position. She doesn't want to be the bad guy any more than you do, and because she's carrying on this way in secret, she wants to keep her REAL reasons for wanting out very underground.


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## turnera

What I see is someone who's just afraid to walk away. Thinking that finding the smoking gun will push him over the edge to do what he already knows he has to do, but the smoking gun will be his 'my parents won't let me come to the party.' That way, he doesn't have to just up and do what he knows he has to do, on his OWN.


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## A Bit Much

Turnera I see that too. This is the toughtest thing for anyone to do. Ending a marriage is serious, painful, gut wrenching stuff. Some people would rather cut off a limb than face the truth.

Look how long it took that other poster, Ronin? Almost the same thing here, except the WW in this scenario is a SAHM and has no income to help fund her plans. The bottom line was in Ronin's situation just like in this one, she told him she was over it. She wasn't in love anymore. He took a long time to reconcile that. This WW IMO won't act out like Ronin's ex did because she depends on Garry's income too much. 

But... what if the OM offers up a place for her to go to?? So many twists and turns.


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## Garry2012

It is a totally gut wrenching experience, i agree. And i am FULLY aware that she is not leaving because of the money and the guilt that SHE may someday feel...not to mention that she doesnt want to deal with telling the world her position and plans. 

Afraid to walk away, in some ways i would agree. I cant watch my kids, i depend on her greatly for that-my daughter especially is in a great program that is 9-3 mon to thurs....it kills me to think i would have to take her out of that program and put her in some crap program because of our deal. 

I still am somewhat in the process of taking this all in. The reality of the situation really only hit a week ago when i got the VAR and read "limbo", prior to that i was still in the belief that we would work it out and that we were not that far gone...naive i know now, but i was clueless. But,yeah, i am still in utter shock at it all.

I want to make the best decision without a kneejerk reaction. Believe me when i say i WANT to confront her NOW...with all my evidence. THAT is the kneejerk reaction. But i want to talk to the atty first, see what is in MY best interest. She doesnt have a job, or an apt, or family nearby--i dont know what that means to me financially. I also do struggle with the holidays coming up...i want my kids to have them in peace, and the wont be, and that scares me. Would it make that much of a difference to throw her out in Nov? or for my kids sake January? Or do i simply file and for the kids sake let her stay in the house untiil 1/1? These are the decisions i need to make.


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## Garry2012

Look, im not going to wait for 3 months to find the "smoking gun". But i do want to put in some minimal effort to get what i need to confidently move forward and erase any and all doubts i have. 

I dont think she would really even fight a divorce, so i dont need anything. But the "evidence" i have, could be disputed, unless i quote her from the VAR...

I guess i am also so unsure of whether i should drag her to couciling prior to divorce, in hopes of them getting through to her. I would do this, if she has not had a PA--so i want to take at least a little time to see if PA exists.


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## A Bit Much

If I'm not mistaken, there's another poster here who's wife doesn't work and is a SAHM but gave the ILYBINILWY speech. He's in a loveless marriage and won't divorce for fear of losing half his worth in the process. So in misery they stay... I think they even sleep seperately.

I was happy to leave with my clothes in garbage bags and a couch at Mom's house waiting for me and my kids (actually they had her spare room). Peace of mind was worth it to me. I DID have a job... thank goodness for that. I took 3 weeks worth of earnings and rented a townhouse with it. We didn't have furniture for another month, just some air mattresses and a tv. It took me 4 months to furnish the house completely by myself... but I was HAPPY.


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## Garry2012

I guess. None of this process makes me happy. I am literally still catching my breath to it all--daily. i cant think clearly, cant sleep and im not eating well....so no, im not taking this well. But i know what has to and will be done. I will not live like this for long, it has already been going on too long due to my naivity. I just need to figure out how and when i do what needs to be done.

In so many ways, i feel like a fool. I am the "typical" husband who never thought his wife would do this, or want to walk away..ever. So this has taken me by surprize..naive again to be sure.


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## turnera

Not naive. Just trusting the one you love to love you back.


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## turnera

I'm reading a great book called Getting The Love You Want, and it talks about how he pick our mates. Just fascinating stuff. Might help you.


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## Garry2012

yeah, i need to finish "limbo 2"...i stopped when the realization that she most likely, based on the actions of the character in the book, has had a PA. Thats a game changer to me...and i struggle with that...if she hasnt, i want to get her back, if she has, i want her gone....so that is certainly a struggle i have.

or do i get her to MC and see if they can get her to confess....


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## southern wife

You can't just "get her back". She seems long gone. Turn her loose and stop providing for her. 

She's already told you she doesn't love you. What more do you want from her? 

She's already mentioned that she wants OUT - let her go!!


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## A Bit Much

Be rational here. It's not in her best interest to confess anything to you OR anyone else, including a counselor. She knows what that means and she has no backup plan financially... yet.


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## turnera

Garry2012 said:


> or do i get her to MC and see if *they can get her* to confess....


Pure, unadulterated BETA MALE bullcrap noise.

An alpha male doesn't stand behind someone else and egg them on to do their work for them. They stand up and say 'I won't take this any more' and move on. And let the cheater CHASE them to make it up to them and earn them back. But a beta will say 'I gotta have real evidence or I look like a schmuck' when, in reality it's all a smokescreen for "I'm afraid she'll agree with me and NOT chase me, so this - postponing and excuses - is better than taking that chance. Maybe a miracle will happen.' 

Sorry, not trying to tear you down, but MAN have I heard your exact story dozens of times here. And you know what? Each and every one of those men, once they left that toxic relationship, comes back and says they could KICK themselves for how hard they tried to hang on by their nails, how much time they wasted a'wishin' and a'hopin' when there was such a better life out there for them.


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## turnera

IF nothing else, stop paying for anything. She said she wants out. Tell her to start figuring out how to pay for everything because, until the lawyer and judge say so, you're done paying for someone who doesn't want you. Cut the cable. Cut the internet. Cut the cell phones. Cut the gym membership. Cut the gas cards. TEACH her how to respect you.


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## A Bit Much

I'd be spitting fire knowing I'm paying bills and providing shelter for a cheater. It's like keeping a theiving employee on the payroll.


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## southern wife

turnera said:


> Sorry, not trying to tear you down, but MAN have I heard your exact story dozens of times here. And you know what? *Each and every one of those men, once they left that toxic relationship, comes back and says they could KICK themselves* for how hard they tried to hang on by their nails, how much time they wasted a'wishin' and a'hopin' when there was such a better life out there for them.


:iagree: 

You're spinnin' your wheels in the mud here.


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## In The Dark

Garry2012 said:


> yeah, i need to finish "limbo 2"...i stopped when the realization that she most likely, based on the actions of the character in the book, has had a PA. Thats a game changer to me...and i struggle with that...if she hasnt, i want to get her back, if she has, i want her gone....so that is certainly a struggle i have.
> 
> or do i get her to MC and see if they can get her to confess....


You can't control her. A MC can't control her. You want her to wake up and say, "What a mistake I've made. Please forgive me Garry. You're awesome and I'm just now realizing what I've done."

Real life doesn't work that way. She can't and won't realize it as long as you are enabling her(and you are and have been). Set your own personal boundries and if she won't treat you the way you want to be treated, then tell her so and let her go.

You control your own life Garry. I'm there too. It's scary but you are tough and you will survive no matter how this turns out. But please take control of your life and learn not to be a victim. I'm rooting for you.


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## Garry2012

I guess the impact on the kids is my biggest concern--it kills me knowing what they will have to deal with. I know i will move on and be just fine eventually--hopefully even better. This just goes against every instinct to "protect" my kids from pain etc--even though i know it seems inavoidable.


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## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> I guess the impact on the kids is my biggest concern--it kills me knowing what they will have to deal with. I know i will move on and be just fine eventually--hopefully even better. This just goes against every instinct to "protect" my kids from pain etc--even though i know it seems inavoidable.


Don't you find it odd you feel so strongly about the state of your childrens future and emotional health, when alternatively, your wife seemingly does not? You're here lamenting what they will lose. Has it crossed her mind? I think not... her actions aren't of one who is considering the dire consequences and impact that will affect you and your children.


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## southern wife

And aren't your children grown and gone? If so, they can handle alot more than what you're giving them credit for. Been there, done that (I was the adult child when my parents divorced. Totally fine with it and *they are both better off w/o each other, and w/o being in an unhappy, unhealthy marriage.*)

Stop making excuses!!!


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## Garry2012

No, kids are small 4-10. And i too am an adult child of a divorce--my parents were miserable for 20 years---this is a very different situation. 

Sorry if after a week im not ready to run to the courthouse and file on someone who WAS my best friend...frankly i cant imagine anyone making a good life changing decsion that fast. 


I guess we all have to do what we can live with.


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## turnera

You don't have to run. But you CAN start doing a 180 to protect yourself and give yourself a buffer zone to allow you to start building your self esteem back up.


----------



## southern wife

Garry2012 said:


> No, kids are small 4-10. And i too am an adult child of a divorce--my parents were miserable for 20 years---this is a very different situation.
> 
> Sorry if after a week im not ready to run to the courthouse and file on someone who WAS my best friend...frankly i cant imagine anyone making a good life changing decsion that fast.
> 
> 
> I guess we all have to do what we can live with.


Sorry, I had you mistaken for someone else............but in the same story line.


----------



## Toffer

Garry2012 said:


> .
> 
> Sorry if after a week im not ready to run to the courthouse and file on someone who WAS my best friend...frankly i cant imagine anyone making a good life changing decsion that fast.
> 
> 
> I guess we all have to do what we can live with.


Garry,

The only benefit of filing at this point would be to knock her out of the fog she seems to be in

Just because you file doesn't mean you have to actually divorce


----------



## Garry2012

I plan to talk to her on Monday....met with the attorney today. Someone on another thread said it best "she can either choose to work on her marriage or choose divorce" that is the option she will get.


----------



## tom67

Garry2012 said:


> I plan to talk to her on Monday....met with the attorney today. Someone on another thread said it best "she can either choose to work on her marriage or choose divorce" that is the option she will get.


Forget about "I need space let's separate" if she wants that just divorce!


----------



## turnera

Yeah, pretty much whenever a woman wants space, it's so she can see other men.

I like your new drive. It's attractive.


----------



## Garry2012

I have come to the realization, through all of your comments, and the fact that my best friend also told me--now two sources...that i am in a fog. A fog of denial, shock, disbelief. I am also somewhat frozen as to how to handle the aftermath....the kids and specifically daycare for my 4 year old (only goes 9-2 Mon-Thurs). The last 12 hours, since my friend echoed all the comments here, has been somewhat clearer. I have to accept what it is, and not what i want it to be.


----------



## Toffer

Garry,

Welcome to the world of the conscious!

So why are you waiting until Monday? Wouldn't the two of you have more time to talk during the weekend?


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> I have come to the realization, through all of your comments, and the fact that my best friend also told me--now two sources...that i am in a fog. A fog of denial, shock, disbelief. I am also somewhat frozen as to how to handle the aftermath....the kids and specifically daycare for my 4 year old (only goes 9-2 Mon-Thurs). The last 12 hours, since my friend echoed all the comments here, has been somewhat clearer. I have to accept what it is, and not what i want it to be.


Let your wayward wife worry about daycare. They're her kids too and she has a lot of time on her hands to figure something out.

Don't keep putting of what you know you need to do.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah, but she has no money, and i cant afford all the expense until she becomes a greeter at walmart. But ill have to find a way, because as you say, this is killing me, and i know it needs to be done. I went back and was shocked at how long it has been since i posted the thread. 

The challenge may be, since i am pushing for an agreed upon divorce, of her signing....or at least signing before January. After the meeting on Monday, i will have to wait two weeks to get the paperwork.


----------



## turnera

Garry2012 said:


> I have come to the realization, through all of your comments, and the fact that my best friend also told me--now two sources...that i am in a fog. A fog of denial, shock, disbelief. I am also somewhat frozen as to how to handle the aftermath....the kids and specifically daycare for my 4 year old (only goes 9-2 Mon-Thurs). The last 12 hours, since my friend echoed all the comments here, has been somewhat clearer. I have to accept what it is, and not what i want it to be.


What about the daycare? Why don't you change it to fit your hours? Or, if SHE is leaving, just cancel the daycare. Let her figure something out.


----------



## Toffer

Garry,

Still curious as why your waiting until Monday?


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah, but she has no money, and i cant afford all the expense until she becomes a greeter at walmart. But ill have to find a way, because as you say, this is killing me, and i know it needs to be done. I went back and was shocked at how long it has been since i posted the thread.
> 
> The challenge may be, since i am pushing for an agreed upon divorce, of her signing....or at least signing before January. After the meeting on Monday, i will have to wait two weeks to get the paperwork.


She also doesn't work... which means no need for daycare. Things are changing. They're changing for everyone... including her. Don't take on more than you need to here, she's got work to do too.


----------



## turnera

Yep. Until she has a full-time job, cancel the daycare once she moves out. Or maybe before.


----------



## Garry2012

I couldnt do anything today, one is because work wont allow, but even if i could, my daughter is home all day today, and my boys and daughter are home all weekend. I also met with a therapist this am, for me.


----------



## Garry2012

well, its not daycare, its preschool, and it has set hours 9-2 mon-thurs. She will need to help somehow, but, at this point i consider her useless.


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> well, its not daycare, its preschool, and it has set hours 9-2 mon-thurs. She will need to help somehow, but, at this point i consider her useless.


IMO still something she can work out on her own. 

I don't understand the mindset that only the betrayed spouse has to be responsible and uncomfortable during these situations.


----------



## Garry2012

Because IMO she is lost as it is. She isnt thinking clearly about herself and her future, i sure as heck dont want her thinking for my kids.

If she had a clear thought, she would see that life is a heck of lot better where she is now...but...


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> Because IMO she is lost as it is. She isnt thinking clearly about herself and her future, i sure as heck dont want her thinking for my kids.
> 
> If she had a clear thought, she would see that life is a heck of lot better where she is now...but...


No, you are going to tell her what she's to do. She has no other options but to follow through because YOU are at the helm of this crazy ship. 

She isn't in control. The one with the means gets to call the shots.


----------



## turnera

Well, then let her worry about paying for it and arranging for it.


----------



## Toffer

Garry,

Could you arrange for someone to watch your kids Saturday or Sunday?

You and yourr wife are going to probably need the better part of a day when you drop this bomb


----------



## Garry2012

I can take all day if i need to...but the kids get off at 2 and 3.

if we have to, we can drop them off at a daycare place for a couple hours...while we talk.

and we have no family here.

and i coach two kids teams, who have games on sat.


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> I can take all day if i need to...but the kids get off at 2 and 3.
> 
> if we have to, we can drop them off at a daycare place for a couple hours...while we talk.
> 
> and we have no family here.
> 
> and i coach two kids teams, who have games on sat.


No close friends that can keep the kids for a while?

I wonder... you and your wife must not spend much time together alone. Like date night stuff wasn't/hasn't been something you did regularly.


----------



## Garry2012

not CLOSE friends. No we didnt date regularly. We had a couple this year, but not that regularly. I tried to do one in June, and she was already on the way out. A year or so ago, she started doing stuff for her to get out of the house: volunteered at both the police station and fire department (citizen training programs) and she is a paranormal investigator. I think the OM is prob a police or fireman. The single guy she was texting was a police.

we moved to this city about 4 years ago, no family here and didnt go out much.

Overall communication is/was bad. I stay up late and like to talk then, she goes to bed at 9....so no time alone. If she does stay up, its to watch tv...not talk.

i bought a hot tub to have good time together (used to talk there when we dated), but she hardly ever got in..."didnt want to get hair wet so late"


----------



## turnera

I'm a morning person and my H is a night person. There's little I hate more than him expecting us to do ANYTHING past 10 pm. But that's only when he wants to. So, like you, we're stuck.

If it's that important to you, I suggest you get out of your comfort zone and meet her where it works for her.


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> not CLOSE friends. No we didnt date regularly. We had a couple this year, but not that regularly. I tried to do one in June, and she was already on the way out. A year or so ago, she started doing stuff for her to get out of the house: volunteered at both the police station and fire department (citizen training programs) and she is a paranormal investigator. I think the OM is prob a police or fireman. The single guy she was texting was a police.
> 
> we moved to this city about 4 years ago, no family here and didnt go out much.
> 
> Overall communication is/was bad. I stay up late and like to talk then, she goes to bed at 9....so no time alone. If she does stay up, its to watch tv...not talk.
> 
> i bought a hot tub to have good time together (used to talk there when we dated), but she hardly ever got in..."didnt want to get hair wet so late"


The grass is green where you water it. Looks like not a lot of watering went on, thus the reason it's died. Marriages don't sustain themselves. People seem to think that they can just put it on autopilot and everything works itself out, well obviously it doesn't. They pile on more and more and add more and more things, the kids and their activities, more hours at work... and before you know it they've put so much between them they can't see each other anymore. You stop knowing one another as friends, as lovers and as companions till death do you part. It's really too bad.


----------



## Garry2012

No, your right....we didnt water much. We let kids and all else that life brings in to interfere with US. When we did water, it was good...we connected. We just didnt do it enough. I would say most dont, but at some point most must learn to accept it, others dont..and look elsewhere.

see she is just as bad...she has never initiated anything, not a date night, not a conversation.


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> No, your right....we didnt water much. We let kids and all else that life brings in to interfere with US. When we did water, it was good...we connected. We just didnt do it enough. I would say most dont, but at some point most must learn to accept it, others dont..and look elsewhere.
> 
> see she is just as bad...she has never initiated anything, not a date night, not a conversation.


I'm not placing blame on you alone, she's as responsible as you are for letting it die.

On the priority list, your marriage should have come first... even ahead of the kids. Without your marriage they wouldn't have a foundation of family. You both are responsible. Take care of each other first, and the rest will be easier to manage TOGETHER. 

At the end it's almost impossible not to think of the beginning. You start to really dissect all the events and non events that bring you to where you are today. I don't know you or your wife personally but I know this story. It happens over and over on these boards and from what I've seen IRL... people just get comfortable in their lives. They take one another for granted and forget all the things they did to help bring them together and fall in love in the first place. That's not to say by getting married you should constantly have to hustle like you did when single, because marriage should bring a peaceful 'settled' feeling to you... but you can't think that just because you have one another that all the things that brought you two together aren't important to either of you anymore. It's what keeps you attracted to each other for the long term.

Kids grow up and move away. What do you have left? Each other. The foundation has to be cared for and maintained to keep you both together down the road.


----------



## Garry2012

We did get better in the last couple years, but then she started doing HER activities, which often times were Friday and Sat nights....leaving her exhausted all wknd. Not the sole blame, but didnt help. FB didnt help either...she started getting the attn from others, that new relationship kinda feeling.


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> We did get better in the last couple years, but then she started doing HER activities, which often times were Friday and Sat nights....leaving her exhausted all wknd. Not the sole blame, but didnt help. FB didnt help either...she started getting the attn from others, that new relationship kinda feeling.


Emotionally she was already distant from you by the time she got into her activities and FB stuff. It takes time to disconnect emotionally from your spouse, and personally I think it takes women longer than men to do it. It's like mourning a person dying a slow death. So when death comes, we're really done with it and are ready to move on. 

The issue I see most here is that you never were talked to about it and what she was feeling. Maybe I missed that you and she had a few conversations about her unhappiness, and if so I apologize. I don't think it's fair or right for a spouse to NOT communicate how unhappy they really are. It's worth the try even if you feel like you're not being heard. The point is you tried. That's all one can do.


----------



## Garry2012

you know though, even this year we had some good times and lots of interaction in terms of hugs and kisses. We were the couple to kiss and hug before and after work and when we go to sleep--hold hands in the car etc. Something just seemed to snap in June...she went distant, and i tried to bring her back and she never came back--and hasnt since.


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> you know though, even this year we had some good times and lots of interaction in terms of hugs and kisses. We were the couple to kiss and hug before and after work and when we go to sleep--hold hands in the car etc. Something just seemed to snap in June...she went distant, and i tried to bring her back and she never came back--and hasnt since.


The other man caught her hook, that's what happened. Before that, she maybe was just fishing and seeing what was out there. Someone took the bait. 

She may have been trying to test her feelings with you, to see if she still 'had' it. Fake it till you make it stuff. Point is, just as lovey dovey as she was with you in May, she flipped it a month later. People don't do that unless they weren't very invested to begin with... remember the mourning and death thing I just talked about.


----------



## Garry2012

boogie110 said:


> Garry:
> 
> So many may feel the need to attack me after my statement - something I've been used to on this forum - but it's my statement to make.
> 
> I read many of the posts here not all - wow this is a super long thread and there's only so many hours in a day.
> 
> One of your posts mentioned you couldn't believe how long it's been since you started this post (just a couple of weeks?) ... I just really can't believe how quickly you have made all your decisions - I mean, to me, it's like, WHAT?
> 
> I had a D-day last day of June. Found out so much crap over the next 2 months - admissions, not found out, admissions. I have been asked by therapists and 12 step groups to wait AT LEAST 6 months to a YEAR before making any large decisions and books say the same thing. But here's Garry...everyone says divorce - he's doing it/going for it/considering it - I don't even know at this point...It's only been first week of Oct that you started this thread and it's only the last week of Oct now..
> 
> Good luck buddy - especially with such young kids. Now, after reading all this in your thread, I thank those who told me to wait even though everyday my head is spinning to do all things you are actually doing. I know why, at least with a toddler, it is best for me to wait.
> 
> Good luck and take care.


Well, the thread started in October, but the problems in June. We HAVE to do something...the status we are in now is decay. We dont talk or interact at all. I HAVE to do something to either get her to recommit to a marriage or we need to look at divorce. Right now we are in limbo...and have been since July...waiting on her to decide something as simple as our "relationship status" she says she doesnt know. Certainly if we were a little better, she would admit she at least loves me and wants to try to work it out, we go with that. 

As most on here can attest, i am not taking this lightly--at all. I have questioned everything and went to a therpist myself today. Waiting any longer is a waste of time and not productive...she will not just wake up from this and say she loves me without at least some help and a push or two. She may not say it at all, but i simply cant sit around and wait for her to decide what we are....that could take years....and she then may decide to move on.

and dont forget, there is another man involved....that simply cant continue.


----------



## Garry2012

A Bit Much said:


> The other man caught her hook, that's what happened. Before that, she maybe was just fishing and seeing what was out there. Someone took the bait.
> 
> She may have been trying to test her feelings with you, to see if she still 'had' it. Fake it till you make it stuff. Point is, just as lovey dovey as she was with you in May, she flipped it a month later. People don't do that unless they weren't very invested to begin with... remember the mourning and death thing I just talked about.


Yeah, she has been playing a danger game for a couple years....and i have been trying to stop it...thats why i was labled a jealous monster. She got the fever, and fed it. Eventually, she found a match...and went with it.


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah, she has been playing a danger game for a couple years....and i have been trying to stop it...thats why i was labled a jealous monster. She got the fever, and fed it. Eventually, she found a match...and went with it.


Jealous monster huh? Yeah that's rich. You were being her husband and you were onto her crazy inappropriate behavior. 

Yes you're jealous. Your marriage is being threatened... and why? She's leaving the door open for anyone to come on in and make themselves comfortable. That's a good reason to be a jealous maniac. You don't share.


----------



## turnera

She's playing along for 2 years because you LET her. If you would just show her you're done waiting, and you're starting to pack your stuff, I bet she'd start paying attention.


----------



## Garry2012

I think it's too late now, I think she is gone.... I should have played hardball two years ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Then why not try? what have you got to lose?


----------



## Shaggy

Gary, I think you need to wait longer and find out what you are dealing with here.

Even if you are headed to D, you need to know who and what she is doing with them because these guys will be potentially advising her and will be around your kids.


----------



## Garry2012

She will get the option to work on a marriage worth keeping or head for divorce. We cannot continue as is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Garry2012

Well all, I confronted my wife today. She didn't admit the affair, but didn't deny it. She is afraid of me using to gain full custody of kids. She ultimately is too far into the OM I think.... We are headed for divorce, she choose that versus working on our marriage . Sad, very sad, but we may e able to keep it amicable for the kids sake.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Machiavelli

Garry2012 said:


> Well all, I confronted my wife today. She didn't admit the affair, but didn't deny it. She is afraid of me using to gain full custody of kids. She ultimately is too far into the OM I think.... We are headed for divorce, she choose that versus working on our marriage . Sad, very sad, but we may e able to keep it amicable for the kids sake.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, at least you're out of Limbo and that's worth a lot.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah, had I not read and talked to everyone here, I would have been in limbo for another 6 months at least.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## the guy

It sucks but once you let her go and work on your self your attraction level will raise and with that the bull crap that comes with it ..like "thats not what I want" or "lets work it out".

Maybe I'm wrong but having been here this long it wouldn't be the 1st time wayward came back months from now.

My point is hope for the best but prepare for the worst. Work on your attraction level for the next one and let WW reel in doubt.


Once you start putting your self out there you will find you are worth it. The worst thing you can do is lock your self up and hide.


----------



## Shaggy

Now expose and file.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Good job Garry.... be strong she is no longer your friend. Let reality smack her in the face... play hardball.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah, she wants to "be friends" im like, ef no, i trusted you with all of me, and you stabbed me in the back...i dont need friends like that. I lose to much by exposing....her family will figure it out...she will give me the house and everything in it...she justs wants to walk away...ill pack her bags and open the door for her....and hide that i am crushed.


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah, she wants to "be friends" im like, ef no, i trusted you with all of me, and you stabbed me in the back...i dont need friends like that. I lose to much by exposing....her family will figure it out...she will give me the house and everything in it...she justs wants to walk away...ill pack her bags and open the door for her....and hide that i am crushed.


Nope not a friend at all.

Glad things are out in the open for you finally Garry. You got your answer. And I didn't think she would fight you for the house etc, she's the one having an affair and walking away... so that means she leaves with nothing. I do know women that think the opposite and they're batsh!tcrazy to think they're so entitled.

No matter what, this is really a sad time for you. I wish you well.


----------



## turnera

Kids staying in their home, right?


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah it is very sad to me...and i will need therapy. Her only concern is the kids, she doesnt want me to have full custody...which i would not do for their sake anyway...they need their mom. That is why she refuses to admit affair or turn over burner phone....we are still in contention about that. If i screw her over and tell her family (which would alienate her completely) she will fight me on the divorce. I figure they will figure it out eventually anyway, especially when we dont go to MC..and i will have the house and property. I will prob the the primary custodian on kids, so they can continue to go to their school and have "home" too.

Gonna be funny, when her folks come to visit...they will probably stay with me. lol


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah it is very sad to me...and i will need therapy. Her only concern is the kids, she doesnt want me to have full custody...which i would not do for their sake anyway...they need their mom. That is why she refuses to admit affair or turn over burner phone....we are still in contention about that. If i screw her over and tell her family (which would alienate her completely) she will fight me on the divorce. I figure they will figure it out eventually anyway, especially when we dont go to MC..and i will have the house and property.
> 
> Gonna be funny, when her folks come to visit...they will probably stay with me. lol


They will find out. Her new address will clue them in. And there's nothing wrong with joint custody. My ex was a complete jerk, but I didn't take that from him or the kids.


----------



## Garry2012

They will find out that she had the affair too...that is her big fear..as it should be. Frankly, i would love to tell them, but it would destroy so much, and really not benefit me at all....they will know that we didnt go to MC...and didnt even try to save it. Wont be because we had a "bad marriage" like she keeps saying...they know better.

They will ask me what happened..i will tell them to talk to her.


----------



## Garry2012

SHE is the one who told me for years "please just leave me before you ever have an affair on me". Then she has an affair on me. How long will it be before i can trust anyone again?

I think there is still love there....she is just so hellbent on him and leaving i guess.


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> SHE is the one who told me for years "please just leave me before you ever have an affair on me". Then she has an affair on me. How long will it be before i can trust anyone again?


I won't lie to you. Trust will not be something you will have for a loooooooong time because of this. She took that from you. Don't worry about that right now... it'll come back again, and this all will just be a very bad experience you've had in your life. It'll make you a better man down the road for someone else. 

And it's funny. I wonder if she ever thought she'd be where she is today? Especially based on that comment. Just goes to show you how much people can change.


----------



## Garry2012

Someone said it early in the blog, she isnt the woman i used to know...at all. I barely recognizer her sometimes. I certainly wont allow or have any privacy in my next marriage (if i get married again). We never used to, but smartphones crept up on us and we didnt stop it. 

I guess i feel guilty too. I feel like i failed in so many ways--failed her, failed me, and failed the kids. thats what i hope therapy will help me with, or one of the things.


----------



## Pault

Been catching Up Garry, On one hand Im sad to see where you are now, but pleased your out of the grey area. Your W ceased bing the person you thought and youd originally met sometime ago. The children really will need to know that mothern has a different firnd now. Its a good way of breaking it and still telling them SHE did the deed else they will ot be able to reconcilte whats happened and it could bounce back at you when she says Daddy wasnt nice to me so I had to go. Watch for that please. The we can be friends statement is a smack in the genitals really as she wants you NOt to play hard ball so she can slink away without to much fallout. Dont worry about that, her behaviour will be considered as "unreasonable" and even if she comes out with but he ws always accusing me and questioning me your statement is simple, your actions were not those of a wife committed to the man she married and you allowed a third party into that relationship, it will not matter is there was sexual connection or not - she ceased to forsake all others so an EA will come in to that. She acted in a manner that led you to consider that other parties were in her life, her action were shaded and she was not open to communicating her whereabouts, the fact that she was seeing another man and was hiding that, it was not an open relationship and this generated suspition as to her activities. Speak to your legal advisor on it and the issue of her fighting the divorce ad I suspect they will use the "unreasonable behaviour" stance 

Good luck -


----------



## Garry2012

she feels guilty, as she should, for what she is doing. The fallout will hurt everyone, including my kids as they will lose some, if not alot, of contact with their mothers family. And yeah, i dont want to alienate even my cheating wife from her family...though i know that is what everyone recommends..i just cant do it.

Seems like no matter which way i turn, for now, i lose.


----------



## the guy

Garry2012 said:


> Seems like no matter which way i turn, for now, i lose.


Thats not how I see it. You now have an oppertunity to do what you want to do and no longer have to answer to a wife....like leaving the toliet seat down. You won't have to worry about her moving your stuff around, and best of all you get to get out and meet new interesting poeple...mainly women.

Dude you no long have this ball and chain holding you back! You and the kids can go and do what you want with out this womens opinion.

You will get thru this and have all kinds of new adventures in front of you.


----------



## Garry2012

that is true...and that part what i try to focus on....so far not very successfully. It is a fresh start of sorts. Now i can have lunch at Hooters and not have to argue about it. lol


----------



## Machiavelli

Garry2012 said:


> that is true...and that part what i try to focus on....so far not very successfully. It is a fresh start of sorts. Now i can have lunch at Hooters and not have to argue about it. lol


Hooters? Man, you are starting out with low expectations. You're going to do a lot of stuff and not have to argue about it.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah, even THAT was a no no in my soontobeover marriage--it was considered "disrespectful". Apparently an EA is ok for her though...hmm..lol

On a more positive note, i think, i am turning the corner on my next stage of grief...been though the shock and denial, then went thought the sadness....for the last 2-3 weeks. I have moved on to anger....i guess thats good.


----------



## A Bit Much

Anger is very useful. You're going to need it, probably until the divorce is final. It'll make decision making that much more impactful and less emotional (in the sad and miserable sense).


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah, it actually feels good to be angry...and stop all the "feel bad for myself" feelings. She didnt care i was crushed anyway. Really really pissed me off yesterday in her defiance of everything.


----------



## tom67

Garry2012 said:


> They will find out that she had the affair too...that is her big fear..as it should be. Frankly, i would love to tell them, but it would destroy so much, and really not benefit me at all....they will know that we didnt go to MC...and didnt even try to save it. Wont be because we had a "bad marriage" like she keeps saying...they know better.
> 
> They will ask me what happened..i will tell them to talk to her.


Tell them after the divorce.


----------



## A Bit Much

Well hang on, it gets better. She's really going to show her ass now the cat's out of the bag. You're going to look at her like she just came out of a pod from underneath your bed.


----------



## Garry2012

They will figure it out for sure. She wants to sweep her shame under the carpet...wont happen..she just cant see it yet. She will have to come to terms with what she did/is doing at some point in her life.


----------



## happyman64

You know Garry get your divorce done.

Keep it amicable for the kids.

That does not mean you have to be friends with your STBXW.

The OM or other men will get tired of her 40 year old azz in no time.

All the plastic surgery in the world cannot hide how lost she is.

Get everything you can out of her in the divorce.

And the 1st time your inlaws ask you for the truth you tell them everything but only after the D.

You have no choice, your direction has been laid out for you so accept it, embrace it and come out of it being a great Dad and a confident man.

You now know the qualities you want from a woman so go find her.......


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## Garry2012

Yep so right happyman. She seems willing to just walk away with not regrets. I cant wait for her to decide on me or not....just the fact that she has to do that is bad enough. She will crash and burn, so sad, but i think at some point, she will realize that we WERE good together. I just need to be in a better relationship when she comes back in a year or so and wants back in...sorry.

Our priorities remain the kids, and that wont change.


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## happyman64

Garry2012 said:


> Yep so right happyman. She seems willing to just walk away with not regrets. I cant wait for her to decide on me or not....just the fact that she has to do that is bad enough. She will crash and burn, so sad, but i think at some point, she will realize that we WERE good together. I just need to be in a better relationship when she comes back in a year or so and wants back in...sorry.
> 
> Our priorities remain the kids, and that wont change.





> *Our priorities remain the kids, and that wont change.*


No Garry you are wrong. And you are too nice.

If your wife's priority was the children she would not be involved with the POSOM, she would not be lying to you and she would be in the marriage or trying to fix it!!!!

So stop speaking for her. That s part of what got you into this trouble.

Only speak for yourself. You stay focused on your kids.

And move forward to separate yourself from her infidelity.

She needs to figure out why she is not happy with herself, not happy with the marriage not and not 
Happy to keep her family intact.

You cannot do that for her nor can you live being her Plan B!

HM64


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## A Bit Much

My husband would serve me a 30 day notice over this mess, and I'm not even kidding. He's in law enforcement and he sees crap like this with some of his coworkers going down and shakes his head. People just don't know what they have. Take too much for granted.


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## Garry2012

Oh, I told her today that the best thing for the kid is for the mother and father to be together, and that this will cause them more pain than she thinks. I am still negotiating at this point. I want the house and everything in it, she will just walk away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Garry2012

So, now, after talking to her lawyer, she wants a "fair" divorce. Im like , hello, we have tons of debt and no cash (because i wanted to let her stay home as SHE wanted)....so fair means you are taking half the debt? Dumb azz cant even get a job to pay for her basic needs....and she is going to help pay for the debt? Plus, with three small kids, now i have to pay for afterschool care and full day preschool...money i dont have anyway. In spite of the fact that i REALLY dont think its "fair" that she has an affair and ruins the family...then askes for ANYTHING. Just leave.


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## turnera

Kinda crazy, huh?


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## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> So, now, after talking to her lawyer, she wants a "fair" divorce. Im like , hello, we have tons of debt and no cash (because i wanted to let her stay home as SHE wanted)....so fair means you are taking half the debt? Dumb azz cant even get a job to pay for her basic needs....and she is going to help pay for the debt? Plus, with three small kids, now i have to pay for afterschool care and full day preschool...money i dont have anyway. In spite of the fact that i REALLY dont think its "fair" that she has an affair and ruins the family...then askes for ANYTHING. Just leave.


What is their definition of fair? She was able to retain an attorney? With what $?


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## Garry2012

Maybe this is common...i dunno. After 6 months of a TERRIBLE attitude..she is practically skipping around. I guess the weight of telling me "she doesnt love me" is off and she is happy. 

I told her great, fair to me means...you get half the debt....

She also REFUSES to acknowlege any affair...is that common? I see stories all over this site where people confess...she will not...just wont deny.


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## Garry2012

I guess the lawyer was a free consult...talked to her for an hour on the phone.


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## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> Maybe this is common...i dunno. After 6 months of a TERRIBLE attitude..she is practically skipping around. I guess the weight of telling me "she doesnt love me" is off and she is happy.
> 
> I told her great, fair to me means...you get half the debt....
> 
> She also REFUSES to acknowlege any affair...is that common? I see stories all over this site where people confess...she will not...just wont deny.


No, I'm confident that she doesn't see an EA as a 'real' affair. In her mind she's just over you and moving on, and she hasn't technically broken any vows with you.

And yes, she's happy now that the cat's out of the bag. And she's probably happy you're in a state of misery. Sort of like a payback for whatever grief she's imagined you've dealt her over the years. My suggestion to you is the 180 and get to skipping around yourself. She's gone. Act like it.


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## Garry2012

Yeah, i think your dead on. Its hard to do the 180...be better once she actually moves out.

Seems to send some mixed messages too...but i guess that is "normal" according to the Living in Limbo book.

Yeah, i constantly remind her that it IS an affair, as whether she realizes it or not, her affair pushed me out of her life 4 months ago. I dont know how it cannot be an affair.


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## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah, i think your dead on. Its hard to do the 180...be better once she actually moves out.
> 
> Seems to send some mixed messages too...but i guess that is "normal" according to the Living in Limbo book.
> 
> Yeah, i constantly remind her that it IS an affair, as whether she realizes it or not, her affair pushed me out of her life 4 months ago. I dont know how it cannot be an affair.


Good. Don't let her off the hook about it, I'm sure she's got the rationalization hamster working overtime in her head. 

Mixed messages? I would interpret that as a weak attempt at making the blow 'softer' for you so that you don't become vendictive and evil toward her. Remember, she wants you to play nicey nice. It makes things easier for her if you do. No guilt (for her) if you're taking it all in stride.

Yes, the 180 is difficult to do when still in the same house but it's not impossible. Personally I'd be doing a few disappearing acts just so as not to engage with her whatsoever. Even in pleasantries. Grab the kids and go do something fun.


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## Garry2012

A bit much: I think you are so on today! lol Im not falling for the mixed message crap...and i think you are so right, she wants me to feel like her and be happy its over...then no guilt. 

I try not to engage her...but she is constantly asking for help on stuff...im like...hello...not your savior anymore....call OM to help you with your resume....or is he not literate..haha (sorry had to get that one in).

I need to take in a couple happy hours etc....start working on my dating game haha. Nah, it will be a little while i guess. But i can practice.


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## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> A bit much: I think you are so on today! lol Im not falling for the mixed message crap...and i think you are so right, she wants me to feel like her and be happy its over...then no guilt.
> 
> I try not to engage her...but she is constantly asking for help on stuff...im like...hello...not your savior anymore....call OM to help you with your resume....or is he not literate..haha (sorry had to get that one in).
> 
> I need to take in a couple happy hours etc....start working on my dating game haha. Nah, it will be a little while i guess. But i can practice.


Going out wouldn't hurt you. No dating per se, but just get out there and have some fun. If nothing else it will take your mind off of the BS you have going on at home, which is a good thing. 

Asking for help...LOL she's totally following the script. You can tell her that you're SURE she has friends to help her with her resume and whatever else she needs help with. You're not in the friend zone anymore, per her choice. Her job situation etc, is no longer your problem. The kids have you and a roof over their heads already. She's the one in the paddleboat now. 

Garry I've been through all this before. People are really predictable when it comes to cheating. Seriously, you're going to come out of this just fine. It feels really sh!tty some days, but take it in stride. It's always darkest before the dawn.


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## Garry2012

I can tell you have been. You are so on target with her. She is now trying to get a job ONE floor below me. Really? so then i have to see you all the time?!?!?! Go Away!!!

Unfortunaly the job situation is sort of...she is looking at jobs that done even make enough to cover her basic needs...much less help me with kid care or any of the debt WE have.


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## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> I can tell you have been. You are so on target with her. She is now trying to get a job ONE floor below me. Really? so then i have to see you all the time?!?!?! Go Away!!!


OMG. She's a hoot.

And she lacks imagination too. Why WOULD she want to work anywhere near you? Oh that's right. You know people there and she's been out of the workforce so long she really doesn't know where else to start. 

Just sit back and watch the show Garry. It's going to get really really funny as the days and weeks go on. When you're in the anger phase (as you are) you have these moments where watching her try to tread water is quite hilarious.


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## Garry2012

She used to work here, so she can get ALOT more money here too. I am a finance guy, so i sent her a spreadsheet to show her the monthly expenses she needs to cover...just saying. She is convinced we can just be pals....i just shot her a text "maybe you forgot: you are having an affair on me, when this is over, we will not be anything but joint parents to our kids....that is the only communication i will have with you"


It will be funny when she is out of the house....then i can work on forgetting her too....cant wait! 

She will have to tell her family on Turkey Day what is going on...i have been there for 17 years. Not sure she has even thought that through yet....what to tell them. So far its that i didnt love her when we dated 15 years ago....um...yeah that will fly.


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## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> She used to work here, so she can get ALOT more money here too. I am a finance guy, so i sent her a spreadsheet to show her the monthly expenses she needs to cover...just saying. She is convinced we can just be pals....i just shot her a text "maybe you forgot: you are having an affair on me, when this is over, we will not be anything but joint parents to our kids....that is the only communication i will have with you"
> 
> 
> It will be funny when she is out of the house....then i can work on forgetting her too....cant wait!
> 
> She will have to tell her family on Turkey Day what is going on...i have been there for 17 years. Not sure she has even thought that through yet....what to tell them. So far its that i didnt love her when we dated 15 years ago....um...yeah that will fly.


You didn't love her but you married her? Um ok.

Oh so she USED to work there? She's less imaginative than I first thought. And that text was brilliant. She'll get the hint soon enough.

The spreadsheet is a nice touch. Makes things that much more REAL for her. She's not getting off scott free. This isn't some romantic comedy you're in, this is 17 years of a life to sort through.


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## Garry2012

I know...so thats why this is all ok...because "we" just came to the realization that we done love each other..lol. Yeah, i need to work on getting the message to her...i am NO LONGER your rock...so quit leaning on me. I need to wash the leaning spot so someone else can use it someday. 

Like you said, i think this is going to get better and better.


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## A Bit Much

Make it clear to her and everyone else this wasn't what WE wanted, it was what SHE wanted. She doesn't get to rewrite the last 2 years here. 

This is where calculated exposure comes into play. You don't have to get nasty about it, or go out of your way to let people know, but when it comes to questions, don't mince words. Be straight with it. NO extra attempts at making her look good or playing nice, but don't be outright evil either. KWIM?


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## Garry2012

Yeah, thank you....that was my plan. I dont want to come out and say hey, she had an affair either (ok i want to...but it will hurt the whole family), but they will figure it out when we didnt go to counciling. I dont want to be evil, though right now its hard, but yeah, i want all to know this was HER plans. She cant keep a secret anyway...after a couple drinks next summer, she will spill the beans to one of them...and it ALWAYS spreads like wildfire. 

She has fluctuated from the last 2 years were bad, no the last 4 years I wasnt happy to , 15 years ago you didnt love me soooo i now dont love you because you hurt me then. She is TOTALLY going to try to sell it as a WE....has started already.


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## tom67

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah, thank you....that was my plan. I dont want to come out and say hey, she had an affair either (ok i want to...but it will hurt the whole family), but they will figure it out when we didnt go to counciling. I dont want to be evil, though right now its hard, but yeah, i want all to know this was HER plans. She cant keep a secret anyway...after a couple drinks next summer, she will spill the beans to one of them...and it ALWAYS spreads like wildfire.
> 
> She has fluctuated from the last 2 years were bad, no the last 4 years I wasnt happy to , 15 years ago you didnt love me soooo i now dont love you because you hurt me then. She is TOTALLY going to try to sell it as a WE....has started already.


I would tell her parents screw it just say she found someone else tell them why you won,t be there!


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## This is me

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah, thank you....that was my plan. I dont want to come out and say hey, she had an affair either (ok i want to...but it will hurt the whole family), but they will figure it out when we didnt go to counciling. I dont want to be evil, though right now its hard, but yeah, i want all to know this was HER plans. She cant keep a secret anyway...after a couple drinks next summer, she will spill the beans to one of them...and it ALWAYS spreads like wildfire.
> 
> She has fluctuated from the last 2 years were bad, no the last 4 years I wasnt happy to , 15 years ago you didnt love me soooo i now dont love you because you hurt me then. She is TOTALLY going to try to sell it as a WE....has started already.


Fortunately my wife came out of the fog, but boy did the revisionist history happen when the cloud was around her. Our once very good marriage was being told as if months, then years then a decade of mostly bad things happened....I was like ....what?? Where was I when all those good times were so bad.

I was wondering why would you not expose the OM to her family and to his?


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## Tall Average Guy

Garry2012 said:


> She used to work here, so she can get ALOT more money here too. I am a finance guy, so i sent her a spreadsheet to show her the monthly expenses she needs to cover...just saying. She is convinced we can just be pals....i just shot her a text "*maybe you forgot: you are having an affair on me, when this is over, we will not be anything but joint parents to our kids....that is the only communication i will have with you"*


You are doing great and getting great advice. One quick tweak - the above in bold is still too much talking to her. Don't respond like this, because I suspect it comes off as weak and clingy. It also keeps you engaged and gives her a reaction to her comments. Ignore when ever you reasonably can and respond in the shortest answer that gets your point across. Truly detach from her.


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## Garry2012

Yeah I'm trying, I really am... But I'm so angry at her...I can't control myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Jogging helps with that. Or boxing.


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## Garry2012

hmmm i actually have been thinking about boxing anyway.....is it wrong to print out a picture of her to put on the boxing bag? lol


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## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> hmmm i actually have been thinking about boxing anyway.....is it wrong to print out a picture of her to put on the boxing bag? lol


Nope. Whatever helps. 

Actually I love the boxing as a form of release. I didn't have a gym membership when I went through my situation, but man did I want a heavy bag to kick and punch hanging in the house somewhere! 

I bought a pair of little boxing gloves and hung them on my rear view mirror instead. lol


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## Tall Average Guy

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah I'm trying, I really am... But I'm so angry at her...I can't control myself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Completely understandable, yet something you need to work on. Your emotions are valid, yet you need to be in control of them. Lettign them control you allows her to control you. As you work on yourself, this should be near the top of the list.


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## Garry2012

I know your right. It just drives me nuts that she has zero reaction to anything....she simply doesnt care about what she is doing. I know it will get better, and it helps to use this forum to talk it through. I need to work on perfecting my 180....and NOT be vindictive and hateful.


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## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> I know your right. It just drives me nuts that she has zero reaction to anything....she simply doesnt care about what she is doing. I know it will get better, and it helps to use this forum to talk it through. I need to work on perfecting my 180....and NOT be vindictive and hateful.


You know that the best offense is defense right? I wouldn't look too much into her seemingly zero reaction. It's a fake it till you make it stance. She's backed herself into a corner. She has no money, no job, no way to support herself, yet she wants to leave. She's in a very tough spot right now.

Keep your wits about you, she's putting on a great show. She has to. Her pride won't allow her to show her true feelings... she's scared sh!tless right now.


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## Garry2012

Yeah, she has REALLY thought all this through....NOT--i am getting the feeling she hasnt though through anything! . Funny, im so interested to see how she tees up our "awful" marriage to her family on thanksgiving....maybe ill get lucky and one of them will biatch slap her..haha

Yeah, she is putting on a good show for sure. 

OMG...she just texted me now about how she is struggling on a job application....really? when will she get the hint that im not her resource anymore


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## turnera

How much reading have you done about affair fog? You keep talking about this as though she is in her right mind, as though she's the same person you used to know.

She isn't. 

She is a drug addict and like any other drug addict, ALL THOUGHTS ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE have been pushed to the dark recesses of her mind, while she focuses on getting more 'feel-good' drug. Even the most saintly, strong, moral person will turn into an unintelligible idiot if they become hooked on a drug.

ALL SHE THINKS ABOUT is continuing to get the 'feel-good' high, each and every day.


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## turnera

And you should have already told her family by now what's going on.


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## Garry2012

Tunera, i know she isnt in her right mind...heck she isnt thinking at all apparently.

Not in my best interest to tell her family, not at all. I can use it to my advantage throught the divorce and prob well after.

I already am actually...she is just about willing to give me EVERYTHING as long as i dont make it all public.


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## A Bit Much

I hope you're not responding to her texts. Let her talk to herself. She'll get the message soon enough.


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## Garry2012

Yeah, i want the lonliness to start creeping in.


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## Tall Average Guy

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah, i want the lonliness to start creeping in.


Which is why you don't respond unless absoultely necessary, delay whenever you can, and ignore all the rest of the time. You responding continues the illusion that you are stil around. You need to stomp on that like a roach.


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## Garry2012

Your right.... Can't argue that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Garry2012

Ok, so I Am assuming alot of the household chores... As though she doesn't exist. I cleaned the kitchen and my side of the master bath. Funny, she then Cleaned her side of the bath room and is keeping the kitchen clean. What is the psychology here? She seems to be copying me.... Kinda funny.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## keko

Stop focusing on what she is thinking or doing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BookOfJob

Garry2012 said:


> Well all, I confronted my wife today. *She didn't admit the affair, but didn't deny it*. She is afraid of me using to gain full custody of kids. She ultimately is too far into the OM I think.... We are headed for divorce, she choose that versus working on our marriage . Sad, very sad, but we may e able to keep it amicable for the kids sake.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The bold text above. Mine did the same thing and I felt that was the sign of an exit affair (leaving crumbs of tell-tale for you to discover). I'm sorry to say that, Gary.

I decided to investigate personally to find the OM. I think that is useful to decide later if a man is to be around my kid (FYI, I am shooting for full custody of my kid though, but still in any case, I don't want the POSOM to be anywhere near the kid). I got a closure when finally I found out what she was doing and it helped me to do 180 hard.


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## Garry2012

BookOfJob, yeah we are done....i know that. As i learned throught this site and the "limbo" book, i was plan b....she wanted to "separate" in January, i got to the point a couple weeks ago. She was actually hiding the whole affair...but she is scared to death of me taking full custody of the kids....that is why she wont admit to anything, but she has never been a good liar either...so she cant deny it. 

It is true, each day gets a little easier. If i can figure out how this will work financially, i would feel alot better....and have the least amount of impact to the kids lives. 

It will get ALOT better when she moves out....its hard to look at her (which i avoid at all cost) because i still see my wife, but know that its not her (as i have known her for 17 years).

Keko, i know your right....im getting better at that too...just not there 100%. I was just wondering if that was part of her reaction to the 180? Does that mean she is noticing my actions? Or prob not yet.


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## A Bit Much

She's watching your every move like a hawk. Don't let that get to you though. She has to anticipate your every move right now because you have the upper hand here. Her ass could be homeless if she steps out of line and she knows it.

She's treading water. Let her keep it up... no lifeboats. She jumped ship so she's on her own.


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## Garry2012

Yeah, I think it will only hit her after a while of living on rice and beans in her one bedroom apt. Then at some point her "wonder man" wont be so great. 

She does know i cant throw her out (yes i think i told her i would when we had the blowout that i wanted her out ASAP). 

Like Tunera reiterated, omg is she in a fog....she appears to be applying for jobs that dont even meet her monthly expenses....even thought i gave her a little help with a spreadsheet so she can see what she needs to make to cover the basics.

It really is getting easier...which is nice....I am still angry, but getting used to my apparent future.


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## A Bit Much

Legally no you can't toss her out. But you could get mad enough one night and blow up... you would be within your right to snap. She doesn't know if that's coming or not. And you could demand she get out of your sight for a couple days over this. Anything could happen.

How long does she expect to stay there looking for jobs etc.? You need to give her a time frame when you want her out of your face.


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## tom67

Go out a few nights a week don't tell her where just say I'm going out so she can watch the kids. Let her wonder and show you are moving on.


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## Garry2012

I believe i have told her i want out ASAP maybe a couple of times. And she has really ramped up her job search (has interviews today and tomorrow i noticed from emails). But realistically, she needs a job to actually cover hers, and some of the kids childcare expenses. So i would almost prefer her to get a decent job, than a minimum wage "get out the door" job.


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## Garry2012

Yeah Tom67, i am going to a happyhour tonight....gonna make sure i dont keep it at an hour...make it 3-4.


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## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> I believe i have told her i want out ASAP maybe a couple of times. And she has really ramped up her job search (has interviews today and tomorrow i noticed from emails). But realistically, she needs a job to actually cover hers, and some of the kids childcare expenses. So i would almost prefer her to get a decent job, than a minimum wage "get out the door" job.


I know what you would like, but those kids and their expenses are 50% her responsibility. She's not looking at jobs that do that because she expects YOU to take up that slack. You need to make it clear to her that will not be the case. She needs to not only provide for herself but for the kids as well, just as you are.


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## Garry2012

I know, i have told her....but in this fog, she is NOT thinking at all. she is just looking to get out of the house. She is sure a neighbor can watch my 3 kids for 3 hours every day for a couple years....uh...dont think so.


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## Garry2012

ok...i HAD to break the all 180 rules. Since my house and financial future, including continued employment are on the line, i had to lecture the dumbazz that the job she is hoping for will drive us both into bankruptcy. i know this is a major no-no...but heck, she screwed me enough already.


----------



## tom67

Garry2012 said:


> ok...i HAD to break the all 180 rules. Since my house and financial future, including continued employment are on the line, i had to lecture the dumbazz that the job she is hoping for will drive us both into bankruptcy. i know this is a major no-no...but heck, she screwed me enough already.


If it directly affects you like that I guess it's ok I suppose you should let her bottom out though, tough one. Garry just consider giving a heads up to the inlaws I mean 17 years is a long time just say why you won't be there and say goodbye to them and wish them well that way you are not the bad guy.


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## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> ok...i HAD to break the all 180 rules. Since my house and financial future, including continued employment are on the line, i had to lecture the dumbazz that the job she is hoping for will drive us both into bankruptcy. i know this is a major no-no...but heck, she screwed me enough already.


LOL.

I filed Ch 7 when I divorced. It happens. It's a divorce... a splitting of assets. I survived it and really it saved me from taking the hit on HIS repo and other gnarly credit debts.


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## Chaparral

Reread this part. You are doing more damage to yourself now than she is.

*24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and possibly walk away.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.


2 things to think about if you do this:

1) You have to do the 180 list NOT to be manipulative but because it's the right thing to do for you. You have to heal from this experience. You have to back off for your own sanity now. You have to have a plan and know that you will be a better person with or without them after all is said and done -- that you will live and learn and move on no matter what. So you have to be geniune when you follow these ideas, rather than faking it and being insincere because your only goal is to get them back. That's not what you want to do. Having a certain person as our spouse is not a need, it's a want. When I wrote down a list of all the definite needs in my life, I realized that almost everything beyond food, clothing and shelter is a want. 10 seconds after I looked at the list, I stopped making decisions based on emotion. That's when I realized that my wanting to have her was causing me to beg and plead for her to come back. That was driving her away more so I stopped doing it immediately. In doing my own version of the 180 list I could tell nearly an immediate change in her behavior.

2) Realize that when your spouse sees your new attitude they are very likely to be a little jealous or at least have some curiosity about what's going on in your life to cause this change. However, they very well may react the same way towards you for some time (especially if they read books or go to message boards also). REALIZE that this tactic can also work simultaneously on you if the spouse begins to likewise. Be aware of it and plan to have your own feelings of jealousy and curiosity in advance. However, like with #1 above, if you're doing the 180 list to better yourself and everyone involved, then it will matter less what they are doing.*


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## Garry2012

I have not pleaded/begged for her to come back. I know that is that LAST thing she wants. I am making really good strides in letting her go (in my opinion). Once she is actually out of the house, she will be on her own. 

For the most part i am doing that list. I just HAD to step in for MY benefit...and my kids. She expects me to cash out of my 401k to meet the financial shortfall of her choosing a low paying job....uh no.


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## happyman64

Garry2012 said:


> I have not pleaded/begged for her to come back. I know that is that LAST thing she wants. I am making really good strides in letting her go (in my opinion). Once she is actually out of the house, she will be on her own.
> 
> For the most part i am doing that list. I just HAD to step in for MY benefit...and my kids. She expects me to cash out of my 401k to meet the financial shortfall of her choosing a low paying job....uh no.


Correct response should have been: *Uh Hell No!*


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## Bella80

All I have to say is that she is soo stupid for ruining her life... she got all the work done to her body and now she thinks she is hot and guys want her.. they do want her, but for one thing! I know a women who did this all, and today she is crying about what she did. She destroyed her life and her childs. Her ex husband is getting re-married and has a great life, all she got is nice boobs and being used my men! Its a shame! And not for nothing I can't stand these older women.. you have to see them at the clubs, they are RETARDED! I have guy friends that would tell me to watch them walk out the club with these women cause they are weak and want attention, I swear to God, one drink and they booking a hotel room. Let her gooooooooo!


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## Garry2012

I know Bella...I am convinced, and have previously told her, that she is ruining her life....and it will hit her when she drops out of the fog. But, like all the others, she doesnt see it right now. I WILL move on, and she will find someone who will treat her half as well as i did (yeah...i spoiled her). 

Thanksgiving will be very interesting...her family will tell her the same thing....not that i think or care that it will help, but they wont believe her crap either....they will be thinking what a dumbazz.

I know it all about the attention...but knowing how she really is..that will wear off. 

More than anything, i just want to move on at this point. I CANT get her out fast enough. I HATE the home environment. I will revel in the fact that she is in a crappy one bedroom apartment, cant afford her iphone, and lonely. She is throwing away the best thing that ever happened to her....but, out there is someone who is looking for me...


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## A Bit Much

> More than anything, i just want to move on at this point. I CANT get her out fast enough. I HATE the home environment


When I was going through it, this was the hardest for me too. I couldn't stand the sight of my ex.

Stay strong Garry. Get out as much as you can... away from her. I tried to be out as much as possible back in those days.


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## Garry2012

Yeah, its like having an enemy in the camp. I KNOW she is plotting "against" me, i worry that she is stealing...all that stuff. If/when i look at her i see the same woman, but know she is MUCH different, and wants to be with another. All so nausiating. 

I have gone for walks for an hour or so....take my time when im out...im trying it all.

I had a happy hour on tuesday...didnt roll in until 1030 or so....so nice.


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## A Bit Much

I went to a lot of movies back then... bowling... the library even. The mall was okay too, but I tempted myself too much with all the window shopping. I bought myself a $350 ring (one of the more angry days) on one of those visits, so I stayed out of there. 

I went places I could take the kids. They needed the break too from all the negative energy in the house.


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## Garry2012

Yeah tdwal, i guess like most, i thought i was THE only one. Now, like everyone has told me, i see the same story played over and over on this site. Sad. 

ABITMUCH: I will try to take the kids, they just dont understand why mommy isnt going....we always have done things as a family. So they get upset when she doesnt go. Was going to take them to the zoo on sun...80% chance of rain....nice.


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## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah tdwal, i guess like most, i thought i was THE only one. Now, like everyone has told me, i see the same story played over and over on this site. Sad.
> 
> ABITMUCH: I will try to take the kids, they just dont understand why mommy isnt going....we always have done things as a family. So they get upset when she doesnt go. Was going to take them to the zoo on sun...80% chance of rain....nice.


You can tell them it's a fun adventure with just daddy. Mommy has other stuff to do. Better get them used to you guys being seperate now so it won't be such a difficult transition later.


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## Chaparral

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah tdwal, i guess like most, i thought i was THE only one. Now, like everyone has told me, i see the same story played over and over on this site. Sad.
> 
> ABITMUCH: I will try to take the kids, they just dont understand why mommy isnt going....we always have done things as a family. So they get upset when she doesnt go. Was going to take them to the zoo on sun...80% chance of rain....nice.


Rainy days are movie days, skating days, Chucky cheese, lazer tag, shooting range..................the Y, etc. You go to a fun place they'll forget moma ain't there.


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## Garry2012

so...i have to vent. AGAIN had the "job" discussion with the WS. She is convinced that "something for a job is better than nothing". NO, its not.....i dont think you have to be a CPA to figure out that if the incurred child care expenses (which she expects me to pay) exceed the income she will make...its not a good trade off. im like....ok, you have been "thinking" (using that term VERY loosely) about leaving me for 4 months....and doesnt look like you have made ANY progress....you have no idea what the #$#$# you are doing. 

Then she cant understand why im angry with her when we talk (i know i need to do a better job here)...im like...hmm...you have a BF...maybe, maybe that has something to do with it.

Is it REALLY that bad to hit the bar and get hammered at 9am on a friday? argggg


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## turnera

Have you given her a spreadsheet showing her little she's going to get from you and what her bills will be?


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## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> so...i have to vent. AGAIN had the "job" discussion with the WS. She is convinced that "something for a job is better than nothing". NO, its not.....i dont think you have to be a CPA to figure out that if the incurred child care expenses *(which she expects me to pay)* exceed the income she will make...its not a good trade off. im like....ok, you have been "thinking" (using that term VERY loosely) about leaving me for 4 months....and doesnt look like you have made ANY progress....you have no idea what the #$#$# you are doing.
> 
> Then she cant understand why im angry with her when we talk (i know i need to do a better job here)...im like...hmm...you have a BF...maybe, maybe that has something to do with it.
> 
> Is it REALLY that bad to hit the bar and get hammered at 9am on a friday? argggg


Easy end to the arguement. Just tell her point blank 'I'M NOT PAYING ALL OF THE CHILDCARE EXPENSES.' Then tell her to go back to the drawing board, your income isn't to be factored into her flawed planning.

Garry go on about your day. Don't stress about her nonsense. She has GOT to figure this out on her own. No help from you. You don't owe her that. Your end is tight and that's what matters.


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## Garry2012

Yeah, i have given her a spreadsheet WITH formulas to compare her BASIC monthly expenses to her targeted income. 

I reiterated last night that i am NOT paying all the child care and that she will owe half of the credit card payments too. Her solution: "maybe my mother can help watch the kids"" WHAT?!? YOUR mother is gonna come live with ME indefinitely?!?!? um...NOOOOO.


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## turnera

Have you started pulling back the money?


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## Garry2012

ok, so interesting point tdwal. I have put of filing because as it is now, she would contribute nothing to the expenses. If, If she gets a job that can actually pay her something worthwhile, she would be paying what she should, half the child care and half the expenses..

We were trying to just do the paperwork ourselves, since we have decided what we will divide...its just the expenses that need to be covered. A lawyer is useless for the most part, but maybe i need to go that route if it forces her out and gets her to take on half the expenses.


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## Garry2012

Turnera, she gets nothing from me at this point. I just havent cut off her cell yet, as it is just about the only form of communication, and she will be driving to houston for the holidays and i dont want my kids stranded.

Tdwal, i know just a little about OM. He is separated, i suspect living alone...not sure. Based on the call, im not sure they are at that point yet in the relationship, but i did think about telling her to go move in with her bf. Based on her previous responses, she most likely will just ignore any talk of OM for fear of me gaining full custody due to proof of infidelity.


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## Dad&Hubby

Garry2012 said:


> I have not pleaded/begged for her to come back. I know that is that LAST thing she wants. I am making really good strides in letting her go (in my opinion). Once she is actually out of the house, she will be on her own.
> 
> For the most part i am doing that list. I just HAD to step in for MY benefit...and my kids. She expects me to cash out of my 401k to meet the financial shortfall of her choosing a low paying job....uh no.


I'm not sure if this has been talked about but during the divorce, your attorney can take the stance of "capable of earning" instead of what she's really earning. My ex-wife was a SAHM and that's what approach her attorney took with me because I had taken a loss in my pay (legitimately). My child support was originally based on income $20,000 higher than what I was actually making.


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## Garry2012

Yeah, she has no money. I now do all the grocery shopping etc. I moved the savings into my name. 

Heck, if i shut off the internet...then she wont even be able to apply for jobs.....

I need to light a fire under her....she is totally cake-eating, and i think as abitmuch has pointed out "scared to death" about the daunting new world of independence without me to save her.


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## turnera

Garry2012 said:


> Turnera, she gets nothing from me at this point.


How does she buy groceries? How does she pay for gas?


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## Garry2012

Dad&Hubby said:


> I'm not sure if this has been talked about but during the divorce, your attorney can take the stance of "capable of earning" instead of what she's really earning. My ex-wife was a SAHM and that's what approach her attorney took with me because I had taken a loss in my pay (legitimately). My child support was originally based on income $20,000 higher than what I was actually making.


This is good stuff. She used to make good money, and can with some effort (job market stinks but still). We are in Dallas, so there are lots of opportunities. Yet, she wants something with "no stress" which comes with low pay. She has had it way too easy for way too long.

This is great information. I worry that this would be used against me though. I make more than she prob ever will (not that much but still), and i really want to keep the house. Would the court force me to sell the house etc. so that I can pay HER child support? I mean, if she takes a low paying job, i would think the courts would just say--husband, you are living at a much higher standard than her, in her one bedroom apt, therefore, you move to an apartment too, and give her more per month.


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## Garry2012

turnera said:


> How does she buy groceries? How does she pay for gas?


she has about $50 left on the CC, i will be putting gas in the cars from now on. She has a small stash of cash that she has been using to buy things (like gophones) so that i cant tell. But that has to be running out too. She knows she is cut off.


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## Garry2012

tdwal said:


> Funny if this OM is so great why isn't he giving her money.


I dont think they are quite there yet....could be wrong but...


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## turnera

Give her a loaded grocery store giftcard so she can feed the kids (and can't cash it out). That's it.


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## Garry2012

i have thought about that, or make her give me the receipts for all purchases. i kinda like her having nothing.


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## Couleur

Garry -- 

About the job.
I haven't gone back and read the whole thread, so I'm not sure about the ages of your kids (4 under 12 years old?) or whether there is any flexibility in your work schedule, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

BUT -- it is essential for both of you that your wife gets a job, and if she hasn't worked for 12 years or so her choice of jobs may be limited. She may really not be able to get a good paying job at this point and she may not be able to be flexible about her hours. It's also true that it is much easier to get a job when you have a recent record of employment, so even a mediocre job could be a stepping stone to financial independence.

Is there any way you can negotiate with her on some boundaries for the job seeking? You can try telling your wife that she can only apply for jobs in the evenings and or on weekends when you can cover child care, but I wouldn't be surprised if your wife balks. So, you might need to consider telling her that you will pay more than 50% of the childcare bills (~65% for 6 months or 1 year -- and get a lawyer to put it in writing) so that she has a chance to reestablish herself in the job market. 

The alternatives -- continuing to support ALL of her expenses so she can run around with OM is not acceptable. But if you do divorce, at least in my state you would have to turn over 50% of the 401K you accumulated during the marriage (as community property), 50% of the value of the house, and the childcare costs would be split in a % based on your relative incomes. In short, the alternatives seem like financial disasters with no end other than waiting for all of your kids to be old enough to not require childcare (and in some states the earliest age you can legally leave a kid alone is 12 years old!).

Edited to add -- Let me stress that my advice is based on what is bets for YOU in the long run, not because I -- in any way -- think that your wife's behavior is acceptable. I do get it -- she has destroyed your marriage and pulled your family apart because she is selfish and delusional.


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## turnera

Don't do the receipt thing; that makes you beholden to her feeling like giving them to you - gives her the power. Just give her a $50 grocery card every Sunday. Let her learn to make beans and hot dogs for dinner. Cos that's all she's gonna be able to afford soon.


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## Garry2012

Couleur said:


> Garry --
> 
> About the job.
> I haven't gone back and read the whole thread, so I'm not sure about the ages of your kids (4 under 12 years old?) or whether there is any flexibility in your work schedule, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
> 
> BUT -- it is essential for both of you that your wife gets a job, and if she hasn't worked for 12 years or so her choice of jobs may be limited. She may really not be able to get a good paying job at this point and she may not be able to be flexible about her hours. It's also true that it is much easier to get a job when you have a recent record of employment, so even a mediocre job could be a stepping stone to financial independence.
> 
> Is there any way you can negotiate with her on some boundaries for the job seeking? You can try telling your wife that she can only apply for jobs in the evenings and or on weekends when you can cover child care, but I wouldn't be surprised if your wife balks. So, you might need to consider telling her that you will pay more than 50% of the childcare bills (~65% for 6 months or 1 year -- and get a lawyer to put it in writing) so that she has a chance to reestablish herself in the job market.
> 
> The alternatives -- continuing to support ALL of her expenses so she can run around with OM is not acceptable. But if you do divorce, at least in my state you would have to turn over 50% of the 401K you accumulated during the marriage (as community property), 50% of the value of the house, and the childcare costs would be split in a % based on your relative incomes. In short, the alternatives seem like financial disasters with no end other than waiting for all of your kids to be old enough to not require childcare (and in some states the earliest age you can legally leave a kid alone is 12 years old!).
> 
> Edited to add -- Let me stress that my advice is based on what is bets for YOU in the long run, not because I -- in any way -- think that your wife's behavior is acceptable. I do get it -- she has destroyed your marriage and pulled your family apart because she is selfish and delusional.


Yeah, this is why i have been a little more flexible. I want the house etc. At this point, she is willing to just walk away...no house, no 401k etc. The jobs she are applying for would give me 90% of all costs...so that wont work. She needs to step up her game and get at least a decent job. She would take weekend and night shifts to help with the child care costs, just not that many out there.

I am trying, though hard, to keep it civil as the trade off is I dont blow this up to her family (it will come out eventually) and she gives me everything with no fight. I would win in this scenario. I can try to put up with her talking to OM, if i find out its more (not surprized if it is) that would be a bigger challenge. Overall, trying to use the fear of exposure to my advantage.


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## A Bit Much

Or just do the shopping yourself. Garry you have a learning curve here as well. 

I find it interesting the OM situation hasn't ballooned into more. She's giving up her family for him (there is a 3rd party in the picture) yet, he has a very diminished role in aiding her exit.


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## Garry2012

A Bit Much said:


> Or just do the shopping yourself. Garry you have a learning curve here as well.
> 
> I find it interesting the OM situation hasn't ballooned into more. She's giving up her family for him (there is a 3rd party in the picture) yet, he has a very diminished role in aiding her exit.


yeah, i dont know what the deal is. They didnt sound like lovers....just friends..with hints of attraction and of wanting more. Thats why i dont think they are quite to that point yet. AND he is only separated..not divorced...so...HE may be not ready to jump into another relationship. Now there is no excuse for not wanting her over...so...if he was just playing..he may find himself in a bind.


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## Garry2012

then again, it may have ballooned...and i just dont know....that wouldnt surprize me either. Im not really monitoring her or VAR her anymore either.


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## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> yeah, i dont know what the deal is. They didnt sound like lovers....just friends..with hints of attraction and of wanting more. Thats why i dont think they are quite to that point yet. AND he is only separated..not divorced...so...HE may be not ready to jump into another relationship. Now there is no excuse for not wanting her over...so...if he was just playing..he may find himself in a bind.


I'm thinking now he's gotten the message she's 'free' to do whatever, and he's not all that interested in it anymore. It's one thing to chase after someone who's taken... it's a thrill. Well she's out there now. He doesn't want that responsibility, he has his own BS to resolve first. She was only supposed to be a distraction. Not in any way a solution for his misery.

Maybe it was never that serious. She may have blown it up in her own mind a bit...romanticized it, but the reality is it was never like that.


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## turnera

Would you take her back?


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## tom67

She may be nice now but more times than not when reality hits they go scorched earth so watch out!


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## Garry2012

I know it may be an act, i am VERY weary of that. She seems sincere....for the kids sake, to not take it to me--and let me have the house. She pulled her 401k out for her boob/tummy tuck. I would fight her taking my 401k....she has not mentioned it at all. Other than that, not much in assets...just cc bills.

Turnera...i would HEAVILY lean to no...especially once the D is final. The kids having parents together would be a consideration...and it would depend on how my dating was going. But i would say most likely not...i could never trust her again...and there seem to be LOTS of women that would be faithful and thrilled to have me.


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## Garry2012

I think her explaining the divorce to her family at Thanksgiving will be a big wake up call to her too. She will have other people looking at her with the same "are you nuts?" look i have had for several months regarding the reasons for the divorce.


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## turnera

Garry2012 said:


> I think her explaining the divorce to her family at Thanksgiving will be a big wake up call to her too. She will have other people looking at her with the same "are you nuts?" look i have had for several months regarding the reasons for the divorce.


 Don't bet on it. That will be HER family and she will spin it so she HAD to do what she did, and they will agree with her.


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## Garry2012

oh i know she will spin it for SURE. She knows she has too. I expect them to maybe, maybe half believe her. But we have NEVER even been mad around each other when there is family. Heck, my family would be more apt to believe her tale than hers. It will be very interesting. Besides, she is a terrible liar...so she will have to win an emmy for this performance.

They will stay friendly with me either way....thats how they are.


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## A Bit Much

Her family will no doubt be shocked at the news, but they're her family and will be supportive in the end. It's what family's do.

Family doesn't have to agree with what's happening, but I doubt they would leave her completely out in the cold.


----------



## LearningLifeQDay

I'm Sorry To Hear About Your Situation Garry. Be prepared and put your 'seat belt' on. You're on an emotional roller coaster. Most importantly be there for 'your' kids. They're going to have it even harder. It's going to be like a death in the family, with the pain being lifelong. This 'shaky ground' isn't good for your kids. If your parents and other family members can and will help take it...
You've made your decision. Now do what's in you and your kids' best interest.


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## Garry2012

No they wont leave her at all. And they will support her...no doubt. Will they believe that it was because we were a bad couple or I was a bad husband, i REALLY dont think so. Likewise, they will contact me to see what my story is, and they will support me as much as her....


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## Garry2012

no, the OM tale is what scares her to death--she will lose them to me for that--no doubt. I am hoping they tell her that she is crazy and a total dumazz. NOT that i think it will change anything, but they will. AND they wont buy her story that much either...the more she talks the more of a lie it becomes.

The only thing i REALLY want, is the house and for her to pay her share. Everything else will work its way out. Do I really care about trashing her? no...id like everyone to know, but im not going to give away my biggest trading piece (fear of exposure) and get nothing in return.


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## turnera

Garry2012 said:


> No they wont leave her at all. And they will support her...no doubt. Will they believe that it was because we were a bad couple or I was a bad husband, i REALLY dont think so. Likewise, they will contact me to see what my story is, and they will support me as much as her....


 I really wish this was true but out of a few hundred men who've been in your exact same shoes, I can't think of a single one that this happened to.


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## Garry2012

turnera said:


> I really wish this was true but out of a few hundred men who've been in your exact same shoes, I can't think of a single one that this happened to.


Thats fine....either way, im not counting on it, nor do i need it.

My MIL will "support" me just to have a good relationship with grandkids....she will watch them etc. when possible (they live 4 hours away). Not in the same way they will support her..which may include monetary assistance.

On a positive note, i see that she is actually looking for jobs today...better ones! finally!


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## Garry2012

Im MUCH better off potentially if we dont do that. But that is the last resort yeah. Why wouldnt i try to get what i want, and still eventually get the word out about her actions? Im not going to shoot myself in the foot.


----------



## A Bit Much

tdwal said:


> I am going to be completely honest with you. I can't tell you how many times I have heard wives tell there husbands that they don't want anything they just want their freedom and the husband thinks they have it in the bag. What happens is they talk to a lawyer and he tells them how stupid they are and they completely turn around and skewer your a$$. It will happen, because they will know what matters most to you and will use that to manipulate you.


Well she's already had her free hour consult. Any further info on how or what to do next she'll have to pay for, and she's broke. This is a plus 1 for Garry. She's limited with no money in what she can do.

I think without actual papers in front of her, she's not entirely convinced that this is it. She's thinking she has time on her side. Job hunt could take months. That works to her benefit...


----------



## Garry2012

tdwal said:


> I am going to be completely honest with you. I can't tell you how many times I have heard wives tell there husbands that they don't want anything they just want their freedom and the husband thinks they have it in the bag. What happens is they talk to a lawyer and he tells them how stupid they are and they completely turn around and skewer your a$$. It will happen, because they will know what matters most to you and will use that to manipulate you.


Yep, and i know what she wants....silence. So far, this is the deal...i get most of everything and she gets me not running to her family. Its not concrete, i know that....it can change at any time....but the alternative is to blow it all up, i lose it all and she will essentially "lose" her family...too embarrased to visit much. Im not naive...i can tell she is getting advice from smarter more savvy folks....and i know this is war....but so far we have a tentative agreement.


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## Garry2012

I think without actual papers in front of her, she's not entirely convinced that this is it. She's thinking she has time on her side. Job hunt could take months. That works to her benefit...[/QUOTE]

totally agree here....which is why im trying to light a fire under her.

this may sound bad, and conceited...but i can out-think circles around her. I just have to make the right moves and keep her confused....give her a carrot while i get the steak...totally possible here.


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## A Bit Much

Nothing would light that fire more than divorce papers. lol

Fussing at her is just one way, and after time she may just tune that out and go at her own pace.


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## A Bit Much

> this may sound bad, and conceited...but i can out-think circles around her. I just have to make the right moves and keep her confused....give her a carrot while i get the steak...totally possible here


Ok now don't go busting your arm patting yourself on the back quite yet...

She did manage to have an affair or get something going under your watch. That takes SOME amount of cleverness.


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## Garry2012

tdwal said:


> I sure hope your right.


Im ok either way. Its the best shot i have, the only shot. If not, i let the court settle it, and i lose. Its a better deal for me and her...she has not indicated at all that she wants anything yet...and using the guilt of the EA is helpful. So far so good.


----------



## Garry2012

tdwal said:


> I think she is already there


I think so too. I am self filing....we just have to figure out money payments etc. Im ready to file....i want the clock ticking.

question: so if we file monday, with her with no job...and me paying her i guess...whatever....if she gets a decent job in the mean time, and she should be paying me, we would redo the paperwork...and refile...anyone know if the clock restarts?


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## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> Im ok either way. Its the best shot i have, the only shot. If not, i let the court settle it, and i lose. Its a better deal for me and her*...she has not indicated at all that she wants anything yet*...and using the guilt of the EA is helpful. So far so good.


I suspect the bolded is because you haven't served her yet. It's not quite 'real' until that happens. It's just talk for now.


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## Garry2012

A Bit Much said:


> Ok now don't go busting your arm patting yourself on the back quite yet...
> 
> She did manage to have an affair or get something going under your watch. That takes SOME amount of cleverness.


she not dumb...i suspect that wasnt her idea either frankly.


----------



## Garry2012

A Bit Much said:


> I suspect the bolded is because you haven't served her yet. It's not quite 'real' until that happens. It's just talk for now.


she is ready to sign..."draw something up and i will sign it"...is what she told me


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> she is ready to sign..."draw something up and i will sign it"...is what she told me


OK, but you haven't yet, which I'm sure to her looks like you're bluffing or procrastinating. Either is good for her.

What you need and what she needs to see is a hearing date.


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## Garry2012

A Bit Much said:


> OK, but you haven't yet, which I'm sure to her looks like you're bluffing or procrastinating. Either is good for her.


right....see question above...i told her last night im ready..not sure how it works. She may not sign if she doesnt have a job either...will refuse to be in the street dn umemployed-- i cant afford to pay her expenses...


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Garry2012 said:


> Yep, and i know what she wants....silence. So far, this is the deal...i get most of everything and she gets me not running to her family. Its not concrete, i know that....it can change at any time....but the alternative is to blow it all up, i lose it all and she will essentially "lose" her family...too embarrased to visit much. Im not naive...i can tell she is getting advice from smarter more savvy folks....and i know this is war....but so far we have a tentative agreement.


You think that now, but remember that she is likely laying the ground work for them to doubt you when you fianlly tell. By staying silent, you are giving her a head start in describing your relationship. They here about all your faults, how you were msotly to blame, how she stopped trusting you, how you were controlling and forced her to do these things. After hearing that, your story loses a lot of its impact.


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> right....see question above...i told her last night im ready..not sure how it works. She may not sign if she doesnt have a job either...will refuse to be in the street dn umemployed-- i cant afford to pay her expenses...


Her employment status won't stop anything or put it off. And she doesn't have to sign (in my state divorces can be given by default) and are considered uncontested.

So you told her you were ready? Without the papers in front of her it's just talk. She hasn't seen anything.


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## Garry2012

Tall Average Guy said:


> You think that now, but remember that she is likely laying the ground work for them to doubt you when you fianlly tell. By staying silent, you are giving her a head start in describing your relationship. They here about all your faults, how you were msotly to blame, how she stopped trusting you, how you were controlling and forced her to do these things. After hearing that, your story loses a lot of its impact.


Maybe..i'm not disagreeing...but my best shot at what I want is to negotiate. I run to them to do this great "expose" i get nothing from that but a moral victory....fleeting moral victory..thats it. I lose what i want. I really dont care about her family....but it is by far the biggest negotiating chip i have. Joint custody would be too, but that is far harder to take away.


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## A Bit Much

If she's signing anything you put in front of her, there's not going to be any negotiating. You win.


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## Garry2012

My talk with her yesterday may just have lit a fire...she is applying to lots of jobs today. I will talk with her this weekend, sit down and go throught the divorce papers....it will add some reality.


----------



## Garry2012

A Bit Much said:


> If she's signing anything you put in front of her, there's not going to be any negotiating. You win.


lol exactly. IT wont be that easy, but she want fair. I just dont know what fair is until she is paid something. Fair is her half of all the bills....if thats more than she is making, she will say not fair....hence my conundrum.


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> lol exactly. IT wont be that easy, but she want fair. I just dont know what fair is until she is paid something. Fair is her half of all the bills....if thats more than she is making, she will say not fair....hence my conundrum.


Yes, this isn't going to be a smooth and stress free as you would like.

IDK. I'd still produce papers exactly like I want them and let her figure out how to fill in the blanks of the agreement. She wants out? Fine. GTFO.


----------



## Garry2012

No, like everyone is saying...people are talking to her...changing her views. But, yeah..i think we are on the same trajectory. I agree...sit down this weekend and work through the papers. i like that...GTFO....may have used that a few times lately lol


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Garry2012 said:


> Maybe..i'm not disagreeing...but my best shot at what I want is to negotiate. I run to them to do this great "expose" i get nothing from that but a moral victory....fleeting moral victory..thats it. I lose what i want. I really dont care about her family....but it is by far the biggest negotiating chip i have. Joint custody would be too, but that is far harder to take away.


My point is that she is probably actively working to take that negotiating chip away from you. Prepare for that, and don't assume you will always have it.


----------



## Garry2012

Tall Average Guy said:


> My point is that she is probably actively working to take that negotiating chip away from you. Prepare for that, and don't assume you will always have it.


No, i know. She knows i have "proof" of her infidelity, she just doesnt know what it is. I know if i drove to her family and told them everything, they would be blown away....but i have to keep her convinced my evidence is even better than that. So far she has been very scared of what i have and what i know....i need to keep that edge for a while longer.


----------



## Garry2012

ok, so here is the latest "great idea" my STBXW came up with for child care. She asked the 12 yo across the street if she could watch them. Which is fine, except we are asking her to watch them EVERY day, 5 days a week, for 4 hours a day, for a year or more. Really? we are pinning our child care option on a 12yo who, im sure, doesnt understand the enormity of the duty she is agreeing to? (banging head on wall)


----------



## turnera

Don't let that happen. Please don't put your kids' lives in the hands of an untrained, immature, non-medically trained child for that much time. An evening out every week? Go for it. 

We just had a 22-year-old woman sentenced here this week who was running a daycare in her home, who left all the kids sleeping, to go to Target! The hot oil on the stove caught the house on fire and several kids died. So even a 22 year old is not always that reliable.

And I promise you, that girl is VERY unlikely to stick with it. I tried to hire a similar girl to help me clean my house, and she about had a mental breakdown, she was so unhappy being stuck in a long-term responsibility, and so afraid to tell me.

MAYBE find a retired lady who could use the income. If she's not so old she's getting medical issues herself.


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## Garry2012

EXACTLY!!!! I told her no way. She cant possible stick to it, its WAY to big of a commitment. STBXW is reaching for straws to be able to take a low income job and get out. Like everything else, she just cant think straight. She did find an older lady, but, as usual, when i calculated her fee, it came to over $600 again.

I cant ignore her choices, when she cant even make reasonable ones....she is so stupid these days....so determined to leave, she cant think.


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> EXACTLY!!!! I told her no way. She cant possible stick to it, its WAY to big of a commitment. STBXW is reaching for straws to be able to take a low income job and get out. Like everything else, she just cant think straight. She did find an older lady, but, as usual, when i calculated her fee, it came to over $600 again.
> 
> I cant ignore her choices, when she cant even make reasonable ones....she is so stupid these days....so determined to leave, she cant think.


I guess she'll be working for daycare then. This is possible if her living expenses are taken care of... where is the OM in this scenario? Where is she going to live? Any word on that yet?


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## Garry2012

Yeah, i told her last night to go live with him. She just ignores me. I suggested working at an apartment complex, because they usually give you free or heavily discounted rent, and they are flexible with the work day, so she could have the older two in the apartment and keep the yougest in the office with her...save ALOT. Not sure she understood that "high finance".


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah,* i told her last night to go live with him. She just ignores me*. I suggested working at an apartment complex, because they usually give you free or heavily discounted rent, and they are flexible with the work day, so she could have the older two in the apartment and keep the yougest in the office with her...save ALOT. Not sure she understood that "high finance".


LOL. You do have a great idea about the apartment though. I'm sure she took it under consideration, just won't let you know that though.


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## Garry2012

I dunno...she is applying for better jobs...for the most part..but i did see some lower paying jobs too. She is as desparate to get out as i am to get her out, but "cmon man!" get a job that pays the bills!


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## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> I dunno...she is applying for better jobs...for the most part..but i did see some lower paying jobs too. She is as desparate to get out as i am to get her out, but "cmon man!" get a job that pays the bills!


Maybe she's trying to get 2 to cover expenses. 2 part times is just as good as 1 full time.


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## turnera

As long as HE pays for their healthcare.


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## Garry2012

yeah, i got the healthcare. Cherish my kids, I would sell my liver for them. Just dont want anything to go to her at this point.

She just applied for an apartment leasing job....that I sent her lol.

she has been applying alot lately. Be SO nice to get her out so i can be happy to go home again.


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## frozen

Garry2012 said:


> I dunno...she is applying for better jobs...for the most part..but i did see some lower paying jobs too. She is as desparate to get out as i am to get her out, but "cmon man!" get a job that pays the bills!


Maybe suggest a career counselor to her?


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## Garry2012

Update: So I have been cleaning the house, making dinners etc. I think she is feeling the weight of going to Thanksgiving without me, and having to deal with her family.. She has been holed up in the bedroom for the last two days.... She looks like crap... I have been acting like she just doesn't exist... Frankly... I don't even hear her when she talks to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

EDIT...and...I have to say, while i have done all the housework, the house is cleaner than it has been in years!!! haha


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## turnera

Good work.


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## Garry2012

So, my inlaws found out that im not going on turkey day...looked at the phone records...the texts and inquiring as to why have begun..haha...no wonder she looks like crap..lol

I would THINK she would try to coordinate a consistent story between us both...but...oh well.


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## aston

I'm sick of people using Mid Life Crisis as an excuse to engage in infidelity or frivolous behavior. She's a CHEATER...PERIOD!
I'm sure if this was a guy no one will find a way to rationalize or exaplin it...but of course it's a woman and all the usual excuses of being a stay at home mom, being stressed etc......bull*hit as usual.
Cut her ass loose and move on. Not worth the pain....next thing you know she'll have him in your bed, eating your food, driving your car and under your roof while you're out rebuilding your life.
Let her go!


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## Garry2012

No problem aston, i have. Just kinda funny at this point. I am enjoying her state of misery actually.


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## Garry2012

This am text convo:

STBXW: I need some money to go to Houston with the kids for Thanksgiving. I have no problem giving you itemized receipts.

Me:I will give you money for the kids, but really, I don't need itemized receipts, I dont want to be that involved in your life anymore.


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## frozen

Why are you letting her take the kids? Why do you have to be alone?


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## Garry2012

thats all they know, and will always go there for thanksgiving. I want it to continue to be their tradition.


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## turnera

Give her your gas card or a prepaid gift certificate from a gas station.


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## Garry2012

she will need to buy a lunch or two also. whatever, i really dont care...and it feels GREAT!


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## turnera

Pack some sandwiches. Give her a bag with a loaf of bread and peanut butter. Stop making this easy on her.


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## frozen

G, all the rules and traditions are bring rewritten, so consider the fact that your world will look different in a year. I'm assuming traditionally your kids would have had you there as well! I don't want your kids to hear things they shouldn't while you are not there to supervise.


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## Garry2012

Yeah, I will want them to spend it with me to at some point... When I move on to a new relationship. So, question.. STBXW birthday is Friday, I was just going to tell the kids so they can make her a card...proper way to handle that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frozen

Not your concern anymore, sorry.


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## southern wife

Refresh my memory....how old are your kids?


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## keko

Stop giving her money. If the kids need something then buy it yourself but if they're under supervision then she's responsible to feeding them.

She cheated on you, it is quite dumb and illogical to even think about her birthday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CH

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah, I will want them to spend it with me to at some point... When I move on to a new relationship. So, question.. STBXW birthday is Friday, I was just going to tell the kids so they can make her a card...proper way to handle that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She's still their mother, so yeah that's the most tactful way of handling it. If she's still a good mom to them, things shouldn't change between them. Cheaters my be horrible spouses but they can still be great parents.


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## Garry2012

thats what i thought....i did remind the kids, but thats it. 

Funny, i think she was starting the feel the family pressure about why i am not there (her mom has been calling and i got a FB message wondering--as expeced)...she actually asked me if i wanted to go...im like uhhhhh no...(time she started facing the music)


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## Chaparral

They do not know why you are not there? You are letting her spin the situation? That generally backfires.


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## Garry2012

Its fine, the best card i have to play is the fear she has of them knowing everything. If they side with her and her tale, fine...I lose nothing.


----------



## Shaggy

Why haven't YOU exposed the truth to the inlaws?


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## Garry2012

Like I said, it's the best negotiation card i have.... I really don't care what they think... She is scared to death.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## livinfree

Your story is just like mine. It is very hard to keep your sanity during this conscious detachment of her. It got easy for me to unlove her when she told my son she didn't love daddy any more and planned to divorce, he was shattered. She left him crying and called her boyfriend.

That made it way easier for me to go nuclear on her.

Keep a VAR with you 24/7 my WW has toxic friends pumping her full of ideas on taking me to the cleaners. Document everything you do for your children. Journal like crazy. She will try to use child support to fund her exit.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah, she certainly could use child support. That's exactly why I want to keep the peace, let her leave quietly, even if she wants to think she will return someday. As it is now, she will walk out with almost nothing, and doesnt want to blow it all up into a nasty divorce where her family will know about all her actions. 

I am playing it cool....to get what i want.


----------



## warlock07

Garry2012 said:


> Like I said, it's the best negotiation card i have.... I really don't care what they think... She is scared to death.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


negotiation card depends on what the desired outcome is ...


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## Garry2012

Telling her family now accormplishes nothing, other than a very fleeting moment of satisfaction for me. I can try to tell them some other time, and they may or may not believe me...doesnt matter. 
I do tend to believe that her family will believe me more than her, and I think she knows that too.

How wiling my wife is to just walk away with nothing will depend on how much her friends and the POSOM fill her head with getting her "share" of our stuff.

The desired outcome is i want the house, and to give her as litte as possible.


----------



## livinfree

G, it is hard towing that line of not pissing her off and just signing. Im so compelled to post the OM's pics of his junk he sent her in her yahoo profile.


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## Garry2012

Livinfree, that is SO true. Believe me, i want to buy a billboard and share witht he world. But, we are at peace, and things are going my way for now...so I HAVE to tow the line. I remind myself that, I will be able to spread the news at some point, and that I really want the house and 90% of the assets. Just have to wait 59 more days!!!


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## Garry2012

So, the STBXW has gone with the "we just dont get along" reason for why we are divorcing. Umm...no we dont get along when you are having an affair and have hit on several guys for the last two years!! 

Anyway, wouldnt the smarter people ask "have you gone to marriage counceling?" I mean, we were fine not that long ago.

Having a VERY angry moment....


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## turnera

You can tell them the truth in a few months...


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## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> So, the STBXW has gone with the "we just dont get along" reason for why we are divorcing. Umm...no we dont get along when you are having an affair and have hit on several guys for the last two years!!
> 
> Anyway, wouldnt the smarter people ask "have you gone to marriage counceling?" I mean, we were fine not that long ago.
> 
> Having a VERY angry moment....


Not getting along is a very weak excuse to divorce and most people will see through that if they have any sense. First question that I would ask is well, why not? What's changed?

Married couples don't get along all the time, they don't necessarily get divorced for it. They work on it. That's what marriage is about.


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## Garry2012

Yeah....I hope they see through it. I am REALLY trying to hold it together to get what I want (house, 401k, etc), then, like Tunera said, tell everyone. 

Just one of those "i need a punching bag" kinda moments.


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## A Bit Much

Really Garry, it doesn't matter what anyone thinks about it. You two know the truth. 

Go for a run. I hear it's just as effective as punching a bag... at least that's what all my runner friends say. lol


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## Garry2012

Yeah, your so right, which is what i have been saying...just a bad day. I dont like being tarnished.....


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## turnera

Practice this:

Any time you hear from someone that that is why you're divorcing: Laugh out loud, a good hearty laugh. And then: Is THAT what she told you? Shake your head and laugh and just walk away.


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## A Bit Much

But you aren't being tarnished. A lie is a lie and you shouldn't allow that lie to diminish you in any way. It's what she needs to tell people to make what she's doing okay, and really isn't about you at all. She needs the lie to help her feel better about her decision. 

Everyone will see it for what it is, but not yet. Once she's out there on her own, it'll all come to light.


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## Garry2012

I like that Turnera....


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## Garry2012

I hope so A Bit Much--and I REALLY appreciate your comment.


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## keko

Just tell them you didn't like her boyfriends and divorcing her because of that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Garry2012

keko said:


> Just tell them you didn't like her boyfriends and divorcing her because of that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok, I HAVE to use this!!! lol


----------



## Garry2012

Update: progressing to divorce, and she had a job interview today...good stuff.

Called me today to tell me " i am sick of not having money" and "i wont be happy if i run out of gas" and "we are married, you have to give me money"

I let her know 1)being married didnt stop you from cheating, 2) your happiness is now between you and your BF, it is not my problem anymore, 3) if you dont like your living conditions, by all means leave.

The nice part is, i kinda find this funny at the moment.....


----------



## turnera

Good!


----------



## happyman64

Garry2012 said:


> So, the STBXW has gone with the "we just dont get along" reason for why we are divorcing. Umm...no we dont get along when you are having an affair and have hit on several guys for the last two years!!
> 
> Anyway, wouldnt the smarter people ask "have you gone to marriage counceling?" I mean, we were fine not that long ago.
> 
> Having a VERY angry moment....


Do not concern yourself what others will ask.

You be the "smarter" person.
Get what you can.
Get what you want.
Get her the hell out of your life.

Keep it simple and be patient.

You are doing great so far.

HM64


----------



## keko

Garry2012 said:


> Update: progressing to divorce, and she had a job interview today...good stuff.
> 
> Called me today to tell me " i am sick of not having money" and "i wont be happy if i run out of gas" and "we are married, you have to give me money"
> 
> I let her know 1)being married didnt stop you from cheating, 2) your happiness is now between you and your BF, it is not my problem anymore, 3) if you dont like your living conditions, by all means leave.
> 
> The nice part is, i kinda find this funny at the moment.....


Well said.

:smthumbup:


----------



## tom67

Garry2012 said:


> Update: progressing to divorce, and she had a job interview today...good stuff.
> 
> Called me today to tell me " i am sick of not having money" and "i wont be happy if i run out of gas" and "we are married, you have to give me money"
> 
> I let her know 1)being married didnt stop you from cheating, 2) your happiness is now between you and your BF, it is not my problem anymore, 3) if you dont like your living conditions, by all means leave.
> 
> The nice part is, i kinda find this funny at the moment.....


That was a good reply:lol:


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

Mid-life crisis is just another psyco-babble term people use to excuse unacceptable behavior - PERIOD.

My husband has not experienced one and neither have I and we are both mid-life.

I call it a "grass is greener on the other side" syndrome that has absolutely nothing to do with mid-life, late-life, early-life, etc.

When she finds that the grass on the other side has to be watered and mowed just like any other grass, well, it will be TOO LATE and she'll be TOO OLD.

That's when you will have the last laugh!

Continued good luck...


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

Garry2012 said:


> Actually she has said that she is going through "the change" alot. She gets hot flashes etc. That could be it, but i thought she got tested for hormones and was fine, may have been a year or so ago.


Sorry, I'm just NOW reading through this post - but "the change" at 40?

Could happen - but it's not the norm.

Just another excuse - what the hell does "the change" have to do with being a low-life cheater?

Any excuse...they just pull them out of their arse!


----------



## frozen

Garry2012 said:


> Update: progressing to divorce, and she had a job interview today...good stuff.
> 
> Called me today to tell me " i am sick of not having money" and "i wont be happy if i run out of gas" and "we are married, you have to give me money"
> 
> I let her know 1)being married didnt stop you from cheating, 2) your happiness is now between you and your BF, it is not my problem anymore, 3) if you dont like your living conditions, by all means leave.
> 
> The nice part is, i kinda find this funny at the moment.....


The happiness quote really gets it for me. Providing happiness was never your duty yet WS still trying to play that hand. Classic.


----------



## Garry2012

After my "cold" responses, i am getting the cold sholder today....and I DONT CARE. Actually, i think i prefer it to her trying to talk to me.


----------



## turnera

Good! Every time she has to pull away, she has to live with herself.


----------



## AlmostYoung

No Zanne you're not the only one. 

Working to save your marriage is honorable and takes time and effort. And while ultimately both partners need to be in it, it only takes one to get started. The cool thing is that if a M does survive this type of heartache, (even infidelity) the relationship will be better than ever after reconciliation.

Following the advice of the cheerleaders in this thread will not get the OP reconciled, it will get him D.

Also, snooping, cutting her off, and throwing down ultimatums, even if they force her to stay, (for now) are not a good way to build a lasting loving relationship.

But what do I know, I've only been married for 29 years.


----------



## turnera

They both make good points, and a good person will never gloat. But a committed person will ensure that their cheating spouse is not allowed to continue cheating, while staying in the home - for the cheater's benefit. They are under the addiction of strong chemicals and usually (unless they're a psychopath) are no longer themselves, and need help. They need a strong partner who will show they won't be cuckolded, that they need to be respected. 

I'm not advocating treating the cheater like a piece of slime. That lowers both of you.


----------



## AlmostYoung

tdwal said:


> Then you have no expertise to question the individuals who have been through this.


Incorrect. My wife's Mom died almost a year ago, she went into MLC, told me ILYBINILWY this past March and I have been working on saving our marriage ever since. 

I'm not certain things will work out, but I know from my studies that the advice given in this thread will not save the marriage, if that is still the OP's intent. There are no quick fixes for this situation, but I feel my W and my M are worth all my effort.

I also know that no matter what happens, I will have no regrets and will be proud of myself, which is something I doubt I could say if I did as the cheerleaders here have called for.


----------



## turnera

so you know, the 'cheerleaders' didn't come up with this stuff on their own. Most of it is based on the work of psychologists and marriage counselors who actually HAVE dealt with it for decades and know how to effectively deal with infidelity, from a psychological perspective. Do some go out of control and do nuclear exposure or shame their cheating spouse? Yes, just like in any situation where some outliers give a situation a bad name. But in general, aside from someone like Mort Fertel, most experts believe you have to end the cheating before you can improve the marriage.


----------



## AlmostYoung

turnera said:


> so you know, the 'cheerleaders' didn't come up with this stuff on their own. Most of it is based on the work of psychologists and marriage counselors who actually HAVE dealt with it for decades and know how to effectively deal with infidelity, from a psychological perspective. Do some go out of control and do nuclear exposure or shame their cheating spouse? Yes, just like in any situation where some outliers give a situation a bad name. But in general, aside from someone like Mort Fertel, most experts believe you have to end the cheating before you can improve the marriage.


Thanks, turnera.

Agreed, if there is an affair it has to end before the M can be improved. So that leaves the most productive method of "ending it" (for a lasting marriage) open for debate. 

If I find my wife in an affair I want HER to end it, and will tell her this is what I expect. Then I will cut her loose and make sure I'm the better option. I want her to come back because she wants to be with me, not because I forced her. You can't force someone to love you.


----------



## turnera

Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. We are advocating NOT allowing the cheater to stay with you and continue cheating. The choice is then up to the cheater - keep their spouse, or leave.


----------



## Garry2012

Zanne said:


> I have read this thread from beginning to end and I am wondering…am I the only one that feels sad about a marriage with three kids coming to an end in a matter of weeks? Yes, I understand that you think your W is having a PA (still unconfirmed), and supposedly she is having a MLC. But now, with the advice of fellow forum members, a good friend, and some books, you feel emboldened to move headlong in the D direction? I’m sorry, but the tone in this thread seems almost vindictive to me and I see no one cheering for your marriage to work!
> 
> Your marriage may have been doomed earlier this summer when you both quit communicating with each other, but I wonder if there have been any efforts on your behalf to honestly assess YOUR shortcomings in your marriage? I realize that it is YOU who is seeking advice from this board and that it is YOU who is afraid that your W has moved on and is having a PA, but very little has been said about why you think she is seeking attention outside of the marriage in the first place (except to speculate that she is having a MLC). Unfortunately, we don’t have your W’s feedback.
> 
> Also, maybe your W is being nice and telling people that, “we just don’t get along,” because she has pride and doesn't want to hurt you or the kids. Right now it feels good to you for everyone to know that she's the bad person and had an affair, but in a few years you may regret that info was made public.
> 
> I realize that you’re hurting, but maybe now is the time for a little self-reflection instead gloating about how you caught her in an affair and how miserable she will be as a penniless single person, etc. She can't be THAT bad since you said that you would take her back if she only had an EA. I can’t help but feel that the same people, who are helping you here, are also pushing you too hard towards a D.
> 
> Regardless, just because you all can’t get along doesn't mean that she wants a dramatic, public divorce. If you move forward with your D plans, I think civility is best. Don’t let your emotions get the best of you and say or do things that can’t be undone later. She is the mother of your children and you did admit to many good years together.


So much to comment on here, not sure where to start. I would LOVE to assess my shortcomings...SHE DOESNT CARE.

SHE WONT STOP THE AFFAIR, nor will she change the lifesyle she so desparately wants where she has SEVERAL other inappropriate "friends" in her life. 

We do get along, did for years, very well actually.You must have missed a few pages, but she just wants out. Plain and simple. I have tried several times to get her to MC, she wont go. She wants to sweep everything under the carpet, and move on with her life. 

I take zero pride in her being miserable in coming years, it actually keeps me up at night. Three kids not having both parents together, will devastate them...we have always done things as a family...this keeps me up at night.

Matter of weeks? Hardly. She has been changing for two years. Did i handle it correctly? No, i didnt know what was going on. She has probably been thinking of leaving for a year, and finallly got close enough to her OM to be brave.

I see this as similiar to alchoholism. Do you cheer for them to stop drinking? Ask them nicely? Not according to AA. When I was 15 years old, we locked my mother out of the house overnight...she slept in the car. It was an attempt to smash them in the face with reality. It didnt work either. She drank until she died, about 10 years later.

My wife is absolutly high on the prospects of a new life. Not just away from me, but away from the family. She REALLY envies women with no kids, or who have them half time. She wants to come and go as she pleases, not have to make dinner all the time and be able to do what she wants with who she wants. Where would you have me draw the line?


----------



## Garry2012

AlmostYoung said:


> Incorrect. My wife's Mom died almost a year ago, she went into MLC, told me ILYBINILWY this past March and I have been working on saving our marriage ever since.
> 
> I'm not certain things will work out, but I know from my studies that the advice given in this thread will not save the marriage, if that is still the OP's intent. There are no quick fixes for this situation, but I feel my W and my M are worth all my effort.
> 
> I also know that no matter what happens, I will have no regrets and will be proud of myself, which is something I doubt I could say if I did as the cheerleaders here have called for.


You can keep someone alive on life support for very long periods of time too, but that doesnt make it right. I can save the marriage, sure. I can let her do what ever the ef she wants to do, and hope and pray she decides that she is done playing and comes back. I dont have a problem as much with the EA/PA, if she showed SOME interest in saving the marriage. She doesnt. I would give my M all the effort in the world, but sorry, im not going to be a doormat for her to wipe her feet on, which in my opinion, is what your setting youself up for. 

Dont be sure you wont have regrets, you may be wasting years of your life foolishly trying to save something that cannot be saved or is not worth saving anymore. You wife may never come back or be the same again. I would regret being a fool just as much. If she just told me she didnt love me anymore, fine, lets work on why. SHE is way beyond that.


----------



## turnera

Someone started a thread over at marriageadvocates on the Mort Fertel program, which he is following religiously. He chose that over the one espoused here. It's been 11 months since D-day, his wife is still home, still carrying on her affair, and he has been 'working on himself' to become the better option. He says it's his moral duty to become the better option and guide her back to the marriage. Exposure is apparently a no-no in the MF program, unless someone comes to YOU and asks you about the cheating - you never speak badly of your cheating spouse. It's an interesting concept, and an interesting debate.


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## Garry2012

If your spouse doesn't mind affairs, what's the point in being married? Good roomates? I could never sit around and let her have the affair while i watch the kids. Just an open relationship at that point. If the current affair fails, she will move to a next one... Or certainly not worry about cheating in the future.... I wouldn't if she let me screw anyone I wanted and still be there to make dinner for me....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Garry2012

She has to accept family life for me to be the better option.... Not just me. She will have to miss it first...
_Posted via Mobile Device_

I just find it so offensive that guys think that being a doormat for a year or more is the noble, "I really love her" route, and us who have respect for ourselves don't care about our kids or the marriage.


----------



## turnera

It's not that the spouse doesn't mind affairs, but rather they think the best way to have a good marriage going forward is to do no harm - that if you expose, take a hard stance, you hurt the relationship so it has no hope of solidifying in the future, once the OM/OW is gone. That's the way his plan works, apparently.


----------



## happyman64

AlmostYoung said:


> No Zanne you're not the only one.
> 
> Working to save your marriage is honorable and takes time and effort. And while ultimately both partners need to be in it, it only takes one to get started. The cool thing is that if a M does survive this type of heartache, (even infidelity) the relationship will be better than ever after reconciliation.
> 
> Following the advice of the cheerleaders in this thread will not get the OP reconciled, it will get him D.
> 
> Also, snooping, cutting her off, and throwing down ultimatums, even if they force her to stay, (for now) are not a good way to build a lasting loving relationship.
> 
> But what do I know, I've only been married for 29 years.


Almost Young

This cheerleader has been married for over 20 years.

Being nice to your spouse that cheats, lies and has no respect for you or the marriage does not work.

His wife needs to face consequences for her actions.

She has yet to tell Garry all the truth.

She needs to be on her own and go find what makes her whole and happy.

Garry is giving her what she has asked for.

He has never needed us to cheer him on.

HM64


----------



## Garry2012

She left the marriage mentally at least 6 months ago, and probably thinking about it alot longer than that. If she makes any effort to R, I would gladly embrace it. She wont.

The more i think about it, the more i think she wants a life change...that just includes leaving me too. Waiting around for her to want this life back seems like a loosing proposition to me.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah, it shocked me alot when i first posted that so much of the discussion was on D. I actually left a site because it was VERY jaded info with little support. 

I have received input from friends and anyone who will listen. I now am in contact with an exgf who is actually a marriage counselor. She says move on with your life too. 

Zanne, your story is very similiar as mine. My STBXW.

Will i actually file when possible, I dont know. I only have about 45 days left. I may wait to see how she reacts to living in an apartment by herself for a month. Deep down though, i think it will take a year or two for her new life to pan out or not. She will miss me i think, but she will love all her new freedoms. Kids, dinner and all that goes with being a family just wore her down.


----------



## AlmostYoung

Garry2012 said:


> Will i actually file when possible, I dont know. I only have about 45 days left. I may wait to see how she reacts to living in an apartment by herself for a month. Deep down though, i think it will take a year or two for her new life to pan out or not. She will miss me i think, *but she will love all her new freedoms.* Kids, dinner and all that goes with being a family just wore her down.


Besides possibly an affair, what "freedoms" is she seeking that she feels she can't have within the M? Have you addressed these issues?

Garry, my motivation for posting was just to offer you another POV, one that appeared to be lacking in this thread. A wise man will consider all his options. Something to think about.

Yes, your wife is not “In Love” with you now, but do you know where she will be in 6 months? A year? Does she? My guess is most likely not.

By the way, that in love feeling comes and goes in even the best of marriages. If we all divorced based on that, EVERY marriage would end in divorce. 

It sounds to me like you may be convinced that D is the best option. Either way, best wishes to you and your family.


----------



## Garry2012

AlmostYoung said:


> Besides possibly an affair, what "freedoms" is she seeking that she feels she can't have within the M? Have you addressed these issues?
> 
> Garry, my motivation for posting was just to offer you another POV, one that appeared to be lacking in this thread. A wise man will consider all his options. Something to think about.
> 
> Yes, your wife is not “In Love” with you now, but do you know where she will be in 6 months? A year? Does she? My guess is most likely not.
> 
> By the way, that in love feeling comes and goes in even the best of marriages. If we all divorced based on that, EVERY marriage would end in divorce.
> 
> It sounds to me like you may be convinced that D is the best option. Either way, best wishes to you and your family.


I run through all options multiple times a day. Dont think I dont take this as one of, if not THE most important decision in my life, or my kids life. 

The "freedoms" she so desires is to not have a family in my opinion. She is tired of the daily grind of school, making lunches, and making dinner (gripes almost daily about this). In addition, she doesnt want me to have ANY input on her life, who she hangs out with, talks to, flirts with etc. In short, she wants me out of her life. 

If her goal, which i think it is, is to test drive another man and keep me as her back up, then I dont want her back. If you can patiently sit and wait for your spouse to sow her wild oats and maybe come back if she finds noone better, then thats great. I just cant do it, and what i got back wouldnt be worth it. We would just survive until the kids left, and divorce then.


----------



## Garry2012

Zanne said:


> I do not discount the advice of so many here, who have btdt; I felt that the discussion moved rapidly to D. I mean, the kids are always going to remember the holidays as a time when their parents broke up. Could the decision not have been tabled for a few more weeks?
> 
> I understand that she checked out of the M months ago and she was not interested in MC. I thought that there was little discussion about how the M got to this point. Instead, there was frustration about a thread that was this far along with no action, i.e. kick W out, or D, etc. I’m glad that you have support here, but if it’s your ONLY support besides one good friend, it shouldn't be biased by a bunch people whose W’s have cheated on them. Every situation is different. You said yourself that you needed time for everything to sink in and yet people kept pushing you about her supposed PA.
> 
> I am obviously new here, but I've learned a lot already. I respect the experiences of others, but it seems like people almost expect M’s to fail and I think that’s sad.
> 
> Btw, I’m in the same boat as your W. I’m a SAHM, been married 23 years with five kids; we were high school sweethearts. After reading the forums here, I now recognize the 180 stance that my H took a few months ago. I also passed on MC. And yes, I've had several EA’s over the years. He is now giving me ultimatums and we are moving toward D. The kids know nothing and we will wait until after the holidays.


So you have input here. Lilke me, your husband is attempting to get you to commit to the marriage...and you seem to not be willing. What do you want him to do to save the marriage? Or do you just want out like my wife?


----------



## AlmostYoung

Garry2012 said:


> The "freedoms" she so desires is to not have a family in my opinion. She is tired of the daily grind of school, making lunches, and making dinner (gripes almost daily about this). In addition, she doesnt want me to have ANY input on her life, who she hangs out with, talks to, flirts with etc. In short, she wants me out of her life.


Can you allow her any of these freedoms? Are you fulfilling her needs? If not, why do you expect her to want to stay? Because it's her duty and you said she should? Good luck with that.



> If her goal, *which i think it is*, is to test drive another man and keep me as her back up, then I dont want her back.


You _think it is_? You mean you don't even know for sure and yet you're ready for D? Wow.

Look. Doing what you've been doing got you where you're at. Maybe you're long overdue to try something different, that is, if you have any desire to save your marriage.


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## turnera

Sure, you should know what she wants if you want to save your marriage. 

But if you do want to save your marriage, FIRST you should get the OTHER MAN to stop screwing your wife.


----------



## Garry2012

AlmostYoung said:


> Can you allow her any of these freedoms? Are you fulfilling her needs? If not, why do you expect her to want to stay? Because it's her duty and you said she should? Good luck with that.
> 
> 
> 
> You _think it is_? You mean you don't even know for sure and yet you're ready for D? Wow.
> 
> Look. Doing what you've been doing got you where you're at. Maybe you're long overdue to try something different, that is, if you have any desire to save your marriage.


No, I cant read minds? Can you? In fact, even if my wife DID talk to me or a therapist, I doubt SHE knows why she is so unhappy. I have tried to piece it together from actions and statements over the last two years. So, you KNOW without a doubt why your wife wants out? I seriously doubt it. You may never know either. 

You have to lose the holier-than-thou attitude to have a decent discussion. Your "hang on to their feet as they walk out the door" strategy may work at times, but im sure the 180 strategy does too..and BOTH fail, otherwise we wouldnt have a 50% divorce rate in this country. Neither strategy is the proven method.

Sure, I may be moving too fact towards divorce, but I dont have to sign the decree. Equally you may be not only wasting your time and effort, but your "hug them while they hate you" strategy may push your wife away further too. Neither of us know what the hot button is, or if we can even get to it.


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## Garry2012

turnera said:


> Sure, you should know what she wants if you want to save your marriage.
> 
> But if you do want to save your marriage, FIRST you should get the OTHER MAN to stop screwing your wife.


Which she refuses to do as well....completely refuses to acknowlege his existance...


----------



## bfree

Garry2012 said:


> No, I cant read minds? Can you? In fact, even if my wife DID talk to me or a therapist, I doubt SHE knows why she is so unhappy. I have tried to piece it together from actions and statements over the last two years. So, you KNOW without a doubt why your wife wants out? I seriously doubt it. You may never know either.
> 
> You have to lose the holier-than-thou attitude to have a decent discussion. Your "hang on to their feet as they walk out the door" strategy may work at times, but im sure the 180 strategy does too..and BOTH fail, otherwise we wouldnt have a 50% divorce rate in this country. Neither strategy is the proven method.
> 
> Sure, I may be moving too fact towards divorce, but I dont have to sign the decree. Equally you may be not only wasting your time and effort, but your "hug them while they hate you" strategy may push your wife away further too. Neither of us know what the hot button is, or if we can even get to it.


Garry,

Don't let certain posters get you down. Point of fact is that nobody can make you happy or unhappy but yourself. You cannot make your wife happy, it has to come from within. She is looking for something that doesn't exist, an external happiness pill. All you can do is be the best man you can be. If that is not good enough for her then she needs to work on herself. Start living your life for yourself and what you want/need. If she or any other woman wants to come along for the ride then so be it. You can't control her, you can only control yourself and follow your life mission.


----------



## turnera

lol


----------



## frozen

Decorum said:


> Just ask her, most wayward spouses will tell you right up front that they are cheating, who they are cheating with, why they are cheating. :rofl:
> 
> In fact we should put an information form in the newbie thread to that effect, it would save a lot of time, checking emails, phone records, ...etc
> 
> 
> Cheating Spouse Information Form
> 
> 1) Whom are you screwing?
> 
> 2) Why are you screwing them?
> 
> 3) Where are you screwing them?
> 
> 4) How many times a week are you screwing them?
> 
> 5) What are your prefered positions?
> 
> 6) Will you be leaving your husband should you find a suitable replacement or will you just be cake eating?
> 
> 
> Comunication! Comunication! Comunication!


I like the idea but I think we would need 2 forms. For WW, no = yes. For WH, no comment = yes.


----------



## AlmostYoung

Garry2012 said:


> No, I cant read minds? Can you?


This is my point. We don't know where our W's feelings will be in the future, because they don't even know. But our actions today will help form these feelings. Are your actions drawing your wife closer to you or pushing her away?



> Your "hang on to their feet as they walk out the door" strategy may work at times, but im sure the 180 strategy does too..and BOTH fail, otherwise we wouldnt have a 50% divorce rate in this country. Neither strategy is the proven method.


"Hang on to their feet" is not my strategy. When we try to hold on to our spouses it only makes them more determined to pull away.

Right now YOU are trying to hold on, trying to get her into MC, trying to force her to "do right" and love you. How's that working for ya? Uh-huh. 

I'm saying _let her go_. Show her that you aren't the enemy holding her back. _She's probably going to leave whether you do or not._ Especially if you stay on the course you have chosen.

In the end none of us can control our spouses, so we might as well stop trying. This does not mean you can't set boundaries with consequences. 

There are no magic words or actions that guarantee success here, no matter what we do. But we do know what doesn't work. Holding on and forcing her to stay will not. Not for long anyway.


----------



## AlmostYoung

bfree said:


> Garry,
> 
> Don't let certain posters get you down. Point of fact is that nobody can make you happy or unhappy but yourself. You cannot make your wife happy, it has to come from within. She is looking for something that doesn't exist, an external happiness pill. All you can do is be the best man you can be. If that is not good enough for her then she needs to work on herself. Start living your life for yourself and what you want/need. If she or any other woman wants to come along for the ride then so be it. You can't control her, you can only control yourself and follow your life mission.


YES!

My question to Garry is is he being the best man and H he can be? The H his W would be a fool to leave?

Since we can only control ourselves, it is ourselves we should be working on.


----------



## lilwifey

what happens in a midlife crisis??? because I think i might have had one already although i was really young:
Symptoms:
stress
anxiety that I have not done much in my life
feeling that my life would soon end and I could not be able to live it to the maximum
Feeling that control over myself and my life was leaving me
Feeling that I had not solution to it at all and every person I turned to just made it worse for me


----------



## anchorwatch

lilwifey said:


> what happens in a midlife crisis??? because I think i might have had one already although i was really young:
> Symptoms:
> stress
> anxiety that I have not done much in my life
> feeling that my life would soon end and I could not be able to live it to the maximum
> Feeling that control over myself and my life was leaving me
> Feeling that I had not solution to it at all and every person I turned to just made it worse for me


MLC seems to be a misnomer. Some let the fear of unaccomplished dreams control them and try to run away from themselves. Most find it a time to reflect on life's goals and achievements, then realign or recommit oneself accordingly. IMO

I hope you chose the latter.


----------



## Garry2012

AlmostYoung said:


> This is my point. We don't know where our W's feelings will be in the future, because they don't even know. But our actions today will help form these feelings. Are your actions drawing your wife closer to you or pushing her away?
> 
> 
> 
> "Hang on to their feet" is not my strategy. When we try to hold on to our spouses it only makes them more determined to pull away.
> 
> Right now YOU are trying to hold on, trying to get her into MC, trying to force her to "do right" and love you. How's that working for ya? Uh-huh.
> 
> I'm saying _let her go_. Show her that you aren't the enemy holding her back. _She's probably going to leave whether you do or not._ Especially if you stay on the course you have chosen.
> 
> In the end none of us can control our spouses, so we might as well stop trying. This does not mean you can't set boundaries with consequences.
> 
> There are no magic words or actions that guarantee success here, no matter what we do. But we do know what doesn't work. Holding on and forcing her to stay will not. Not for long anyway.


No, I was tying to hold on at first sure. Now, and for the last 3 weeks or so, I stopped. I am completely letting her go, and I think she most certainly will. I think you have misinterpreted my actions, I am in NO WAY holding her back, monitoring her activities, etc. 

Lately I have take control of all the cleaning and more than half of the cooking. Partially to show her I will be just fine without her, and partially because I need to start getting used to my all my new duites. 

I already work on myself, go to the gym 6 times a week etc. She knows there are plenty of other women out there for me, she doesnt care about that right now either. So I am acting as though she is already gone....for my sake.


----------



## Garry2012

AlmostYoung said:


> Can you allow her any of these freedoms? Are you fulfilling her needs? If not, why do you expect her to want to stay? Because it's her duty and you said she should? Good luck with that.
> 
> More accusatory language, apparently you are convinced this is all my fault. Actually she was going out 4-5 times a week, and told me that wasnt enough. I bought a hot tub a couple years back to serves as a place for conversation, she refuses to get in because it gets her hair wet. So, no, i have NEVER felt anything was her DUTY. Maybe these were your faults and you are projecting them onto me, but I dont have these.
> 
> 
> You _think it is_? You mean you don't even know for sure and yet you're ready for D? Wow.
> 
> Look. Doing what you've been doing got you where you're at. Maybe you're long overdue to try something different, that is, if you have any desire to save your marriage.


I have no problem trying something different, but she has to stop with the new man, and the other men. She wont do that at this point in her life. She will need to see what living on her own, alone, will do for her. She may love it, she may come crying back.


----------



## bfree

AlmostYoung said:


> YES!
> 
> My question to Garry is is he being the best man and H he can be? The H his W would be a fool to leave?
> 
> Since we can only control ourselves, it is ourselves we should be working on.


Yes but he needs to be the best man he can be not for her but for himself. If she wants to come back to the marriage (if he takes her back) she can do so. But she has to want to. Garry cannot give her happiness. Her happiness is not his to give. She needs to find that for herself. Garry's life is his to control. He should be living it the way he wants. Not subject to what his wife may or not want or accept. Let her deal with her own issues. Garry deserves to enjoy his life not always worrying about what someone else wants or expects him to be. It's his life and his life mission. At the end of his life nobody else will jump in that coffin to take his place...not even his wife. He needs to take life by the [email protected] and live it the way he sees fit.


----------



## AlmostYoung

bfree said:


> *Yes but he needs to be the best man he can be not for her but for himself*. If she wants to come back to the marriage (if he takes her back) she can do so. But she has to want to. *Garry cannot give her happiness. Her happiness is not his to give. She needs to find that for herself.* Garry's life is his to control. He should be living it the way he wants. Not subject to what his wife may or not want or accept. Let her deal with her own issues. Garry deserves to enjoy his life not always worrying about what someone else wants or expects him to be. It's his life and his life mission. At the end of his life nobody else will jump in that coffin to take his place...not even his wife. He needs to take life by the [email protected] and live it the way he sees fit.


Agreed.

The happiness thing also works both ways. OUR happiness is our own responsibility, not our wife's.

Usually as a LBS we think, "if I could only GET my W back I'll be happy again". But it doesn't work that way. We have to take control of our happiness, become a better man/H and then MAYBE she will want back in, and MAYBE we will want her.


----------



## AlmostYoung

Garry2012 said:


> No, I was tying to hold on at first sure. Now, and for the last 3 weeks or so, I stopped. I am completely letting her go, and I think she most certainly will. I think you have misinterpreted my actions, I am in NO WAY holding her back, monitoring her activities, etc.
> 
> Lately I have take control of all the cleaning and more than half of the cooking. Partially to show her I will be just fine without her, and partially because I need to start getting used to my all my new duites.
> 
> I already work on myself, go to the gym 6 times a week etc. She knows there are plenty of other women out there for me, she doesnt care about that right now either. So I am acting as though she is already gone....for my sake.


I was going to ask you for a summary of your plan, but this post pretty much tells it, and sounds on course to me. The only thing I would ask is have you added any new and exciting things to your life? Hobbies, activities, education, etc? We all need to do this in order to avoid stagnation in our life.

"For the last 3 weeks" and "lately" is disappointing to hear considering she dropped the bomb on you 5 months ago in July, but we all can look back and wish we did things differently... I know I do.

Bottom line is our W's will only sign up for more M with us if they see it as being better than it was in the past. The MLC thing is a ***** though, and totally colors how they view the past, and often takes years for them to work through. But like it or not, fair or not, their perception is their reality. We can deal with it as best we can, or we can give up and dump them. We always have that option.

That being said, D is no comfortable bed of roses, with an express ticket to happiness either. Plus, since you have kids, even if you get D, you will always have that connection with W. You can't just wash your hands and go your separate ways.

Again, best wishes to you and your family, Garry.

Oh, and for the hard liners, (cheerleaders, heehee) I do believe there is a time and place for demands and ultimatums, but timing is everything. If W is convinced that she is done, has one foot out the door, and you're still the same old dolt she's tired of, playing hardball will only get you D. (and kudos on the forum)

If, instead, you have worked on yourself, become a better man/H, have put in the time for W to believe these changes, AND can't wait for her any longer, fire away. If you've done the work, you'll win either way. At least that's the way I see it.


----------



## turnera

AY, that's pretty much exactly what the 'plan' is here. I don't get where you keep thinking it isn't.


----------



## AlmostYoung

turnera said:


> AY, that's pretty much exactly what the 'plan' is here. I don't get where you keep thinking it isn't.



??? 

I admit I didn’t read all the middle pages of the thread, but I seen little to no advice or support for working on himself or the marriage. Lots of pressing for taking action against W though.

Even Garry admitted his recent “plan” was only initiated 3 weeks ago. If this is the case, the cheerleading squad clearly let him down here with poor advice. 

This is exactly the reason my sitch thread, started back when I first signed up here, was later deleted by me, and I left the TAM board. I found very little support for what I feel, and you seem to agree, should be “the plan”.


----------



## bfree

AlmostYoung said:


> I was going to ask you for a summary of your plan, but this post pretty much tells it, and sounds on course to me. The only thing I would ask is have you added any new and exciting things to your life? Hobbies, activities, education, etc? We all need to do this in order to avoid stagnation in our life.
> 
> "For the last 3 weeks" and "lately" is disappointing to hear considering she dropped the bomb on you 5 months ago in July, but we all can look back and wish we did things differently... I know I do.
> 
> Bottom line is *our W's will only sign up for more M with us if they see it as being better than it was in the past.* The MLC thing is a ***** though, and totally colors how they view the past, and often takes years for them to work through. But like it or not, fair or not, their perception is their reality. We can deal with it as best we can, or we can give up and dump them. We always have that option.
> 
> That being said, D is no comfortable bed of roses, with an express ticket to happiness either. Plus, since you have kids, even if you get D, you will always have that connection with W. You can't just wash your hands and go your separate ways.
> 
> Again, best wishes to you and your family, Garry.
> 
> Oh, and for the hard liners, (cheerleaders, heehee) I do believe there is a time and place for demands and ultimatums, but timing is everything. If W is convinced that she is done, has one foot out the door, and you're still the same old dolt she's tired of, playing hardball will only get you D. (and kudos on the forum)
> 
> If, instead, you have worked on yourself, become a better man/H, have put in the time for W to believe these changes, AND can't wait for her any longer, fire away. If you've done the work, you'll win either way. At least that's the way I see it.


I will agree with you that Garry needs to work on himself but we disagree on the reasons. That sentence frankly gets the hairs on the back of my neck to stand on end. Why is it up to the man to get the woman to sign up for more marriage? She is the one who is disrespecting the marriage and Garry. And while I do agree that Garry may indeed have some things to work on vis-a-vis the marriage, his wife needs to commit to the marriage before he should even think of working on things that she finds objectionable. Here's my take. If Garry feels that living life on his terms means he devotes more time to working on a Dodge Charger that he loves in spite of the fact that his wife complains about him doing so then I say screw her. He needs to make himself happy and fulfilled. He needs to get himself in the best physical shape he can...for him. He needs to do things he enjoys...not things she thinks he should enjoy. He needs to fulfill his dreams to the best of his ability. If she has dreams of something else then she can go follow them on her own. Bottom line is that Garry needs to live for Garry. If his wife chooses to come along for the ride...so be it.


----------



## bfree

Decorum said:


> Zanne,
> I'm glad to hear your answer and I respect your honesty.
> I'm sorry for the difficulties you have been having in your relationship with your husband.
> 
> If the mariage is done then being honest and facing it is a more noble choice than those who choose to cheat and damage everyone involved, including themselves.
> 
> You sound like the kind of person who wants to do the right thing and is willing to look for the truth.
> 
> This is a pro marriage support forum, so I hope you can find whatever help would be meaningful to you.
> 
> 
> I do have 2 questions.
> 
> ** Would you consider starting your own thread to maybe bring out some of those issues?
> 
> The feed back is often wide ranging but that is to your benifit.
> 
> It Anonymous so you can be honest, and you can always delete your thread when you are done.
> 
> 
> ** My second question is this, and I ask it with almost no knowledge of your situation.
> 
> Could some of your dissatisfaction be magnified as a result of what you now realize were emotional affairs?
> 
> I realize they may be in the past, but could the comparison between then and your relationship with your husband be sabotaging your happiness now?
> 
> This is not an uncommon result of an emotional affair, again it's just a shot in the dark on my part.
> 
> I do wish you well.
> 
> Thank you and take care!


Decorum, thank you for posting this. You said things a lot more politely than I would have. I think I am channeling my inner a$$hole today.


----------



## Garry2012

I have blame in all this, I dont shy away from that. I think by most counts, and her own family, I have been a great husband, even by her own statements less than a year ago. 

When she first asked for space 5 months ago, I moved to another bedroom, and we basically separated at that point-though lived in the same house. I essentially was doing the 180 then, not on purpose, as I didnt know anything then. I actually thought she just needed space from me. So, the 3 week time frame i mentioned, is me moving on. Like to many others on here, my world revolved around her. When she was unhappy, I tried to make her happy. when she was sick, I waited on her hand and foot. If she wanted to go out, I watched the kids. When she wanted to over indulge in alchohol, I stayed sober to watch the kids. When she insisted that all the men in her life her friends, I tried to accept it, though that is what we fought about for the last two years. 

Because of this, I dont have many hobbies other than my kids. So, yeah, I do need to get back to thinking about me. I will also say that I probably am driving her away more with my anger, because of not only the EA/PA she had, but the total disregard for our marriage, the lies, and the pain she will cause our kids.

Like a friend of mine said, she is unhappy with herself, and is projecting that onto me. I really believe that. She is very confused I think at this point. She knows how angry I am at her, so she would never approach me, which is something i need to change for sure.


----------



## Garry2012

AlmostYoung said:


> I was going to ask you for a summary of your plan, but this post pretty much tells it, and sounds on course to me. The only thing I would ask is have you added any new and exciting things to your life? Hobbies, activities, education, etc? We all need to do this in order to avoid stagnation in our life.
> 
> "For the last 3 weeks" and "lately" is disappointing to hear considering she dropped the bomb on you 5 months ago in July, but we all can look back and wish we did things differently... I know I do.
> 
> Bottom line is our W's will only sign up for more M with us if they see it as being better than it was in the past. The MLC thing is a ***** though, and totally colors how they view the past, and often takes years for them to work through. But like it or not, fair or not, their perception is their reality. We can deal with it as best we can, or we can give up and dump them. We always have that option.
> 
> That being said, D is no comfortable bed of roses, with an express ticket to happiness either. Plus, since you have kids, even if you get D, you will always have that connection with W. You can't just wash your hands and go your separate ways.
> 
> Again, best wishes to you and your family, Garry.
> 
> Oh, and for the hard liners, (cheerleaders, heehee) I do believe there is a time and place for demands and ultimatums, but timing is everything. If W is convinced that she is done, has one foot out the door, and you're still the same old dolt she's tired of, playing hardball will only get you D. (and kudos on the forum)
> 
> If, instead, you have worked on yourself, become a better man/H, have put in the time for W to believe these changes, AND can't wait for her any longer, fire away. If you've done the work, you'll win either way. At least that's the way I see it.


Yeah, she has changed so much in the last year, though the seeds were being planted for the last two at least. She doesnt hate me, she is bored, tired of the family routine, and scared of old age. I firmly believe she thinks this will be a bold wonderful new adventure. Thats why I think it reflects less on me, but certainly I have a hand in this too, no doubt.

I dont want a divorce at all. I stay awake at night thinking of the pain to the kids, and the fact that we will always have to schedule time with kids, grandkids etc. Alternating kids on holidays etc, turns my stomach. I dont think she even thinks of it to be honest.

If you asked her a year ago about us, she would say i was the best thing that ever happened to her. My birthday card exactly one year ago read :" Next to you , i am the happiest wife in the world. I love you more than words can say." Now she just wants out, and has "colored" our relationship to the point where she doenst think she is happy with me, and I never really loved her.


----------



## AlmostYoung

bfree said:


> Why is it up to the man to get the woman to sign up for more marriage?


Because she's the one who dumped him, remember? She already gave up. If he wants to save it, it has to be him to make the effort. She already indicated she will not. Might not be fair, but it is what it is.



> She is the one who is disrespecting the marriage and Garry. And while I do agree that Garry may indeed have some things to work on vis-a-vis the marriage, *his wife needs to commit to the marriage before he should even think of working on things that she finds objectionable.*


She's done. He can wait for her to commit if he wants, but I doubt it will happen without him changing himself first. Why would she? She basically told him he no longer offers her what she wants.



> Here's my take. If Garry feels that living life on his terms means he devotes more time to working on a Dodge Charger that he loves in spite of the fact that his wife complains about him doing so then I say screw her. He needs to make himself happy and fulfilled. He needs to get himself in the best physical shape he can...for him. He needs to do things he enjoys...not things she thinks he should enjoy. He needs to fulfill his dreams to the best of his ability. If she has dreams of something else then she can go follow them on her own. Bottom line is that Garry needs to live for Garry. If his wife chooses to come along for the ride...so be it.


I agree. The changes can't be for her.

Still, unless she sees the chance of a better M with him in the future, she's just not going to sign up to stay. 

Then again if she's hell bent on a new life, NOTHING may change her mind. This is why any changes he makes must be for himself. 

I do see complaints from the W as a good guide on what one may want to work on though.


----------



## Garry2012

Zanne said:


> I want out. I just never thought he would let me walk. To his credit, he has been trying harder the past several months, Love Dare, etc. But it can't change how I feel about him. I do blame myself for not having enough guts to tell him how I felt instead of making him out to be the villain all the time.
> 
> I am content with my life; I just don't like my H. I dislike him as a person, I don't respect him, I don't trust him emotionally or physically, and I'm also not attracted to him. It's been like this for many years. I have a strong faith and I live to please others so I guess that's why it has gone on like this for so long.
> 
> My H is disillusioned about our M. because we often do things together as a couple and we have more sex now then the earlier years of our M. But I am to the point where that is just not enough for me anymore. I do struggle with those thoughts. Maybe your W does too?
> 
> I can't say what you might do differently with your W. I enjoy being a SAHM, but it can be a thankless job. We often complain to our spouses when we actually don't expect them to fix our problems; we're just unloading. Maybe your W doesn't feel like you "get" her. If there was love to begin with, then I believe it's possible to save your M. In the meantime, no, I don't think you should be a doormat. Maybe the 180 will work with your W. For me, it was irritating as hell and only gave me more reason to disrespect my H.


I dont think my W feels this way. If she does, I would simply give up and let her go. She told me she just wants to see if she can live without me. Which I was ok with, until I find out about the OM, and read the living in limbo book. Then i realize she is more test driving her new man, physically and emotionally (never was a very physical woman at all), to see if she would be happier with him.

She is totally ok with me doing the 180....which doesnt help things....hasnt noticed or cared..which i know is a bad sign.

I also feel confident she will want back...I just dont know if i want her back after all she has done and will do, and really dont think i can wait the 6 months to 3 years for her to figure it out.


----------



## AlmostYoung

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah, she has changed so much in the last year, though the seeds were being planted for the last two at least. *She doesnt hate me, she is bored, tired of the family routine, and scared of old age. I firmly believe she thinks this will be a bold wonderful new adventure. Thats why I think it reflects less on me,* but certainly I have a hand in this too, no doubt.
> 
> I dont want a divorce at all. I stay awake at night thinking of the pain to the kids, and the fact that we will always have to schedule time with kids, grandkids etc. Alternating kids on holidays etc, turns my stomach. I dont think she even thinks of it to be honest.
> 
> If you asked her a year ago about us, she would say i was the best thing that ever happened to her. My birthday card exactly one year ago read :" Next to you , i am the happiest wife in the world. I love you more than words can say." Now she just wants out, and has "colored" our relationship to the point where she doenst think she is happy with me, and I never really loved her.


The more you write the more I'm convinced that like my W, yours is in mid life crises mode. And it's a tough road for them as well as us. Even tougher for them I'd say. After all the research I've done on the subject, I'm convinced I'd rather be in our position than theirs.

You are correct,* it's more about her than you.* You and the entire M represent the 'old her' that she is unhappy with, and is running from. She feels she's missed out on something grand, and time is running out to find it. No one can convince her otherwise, she is on her own journey for answers. 

So what to do? First, detach and build your own happy life. I'd advise avoiding D as long as you could, because once that happens then for sure the M is done. She hasn't filed yet, right?


----------



## turnera

AlmostYoung said:


> found very little support for what I feel, and you seem to agree, should be “the plan”.


 We talk about it all the time, on dozens of threads that I am on. The 'plan' in general around here is:
If infidelity is present, tackle that first - the OM/OW HAS to go.
If it's not present, stop begging the person to stay, respect them, GAL, go to therapy to work on FOO issues, and start improving yourself so your spouse - or the next person - will benefit from the new, improved you.


----------



## Garry2012

AlmostYoung said:


> The more you write the more I'm convinced that like my W, yours is in mid life crises mode. And it's a tough road for them as well as us. Even tougher for them I'd say. After all the research I've done on the subject, I'm convinced I'd rather be in our position than theirs.
> 
> You are correct,* it's more about her than you.* You and the entire M represent the 'old her' that she is unhappy with, and is running from. She feels she's missed out on something grand, and time is running out to find it. No one can convince her otherwise, she is on her own journey for answers.
> 
> So what to do? First, detach and build your own happy life. I'd advise avoiding D as long as you could, because once that happens then for sure the M is done. She hasn't filed yet, right?


I filed the petition to attempt to shock her into reality. She was fine with the filing. That second paragraph I think is her to a tee. 

I have detached, but she feels fine with it. BAsically the 180 didnt work, which isnt good I know. At this point, I can let her go, but I worry for the kids. They will be devasted.


----------



## bfree

AlmostYoung said:


> Because she's the one who dumped him, remember? She already gave up. If he wants to save it, it has to be him to make the effort. She already indicated she will not. Might not be fair, but it is what it is.
> 
> *No, it takes two to save a marriage. If she is not willing to do what is necessary for the marriage to continue then there is nothing Garry can do by himself to save it.*
> 
> 
> She's done. He can wait for her to commit if he wants, but I doubt it will happen without him changing himself first. Why would she? She basically told him he no longer offers her what she wants.
> 
> 
> *I would bet my last dollar that she doesn't know what she wants. There is no way for Garry to give her what she wants since she has no clue what that is let alone how to communicate it to her husband.*
> 
> 
> I agree. The changes can't be for her.
> 
> Still, unless she sees the chance of a better M with him in the future, she's just not going to sign up to stay.
> 
> *Why should Garry sign up to stay in a marriage that his wife won't work to save?*
> 
> Then again if she's hell bent on a new life, NOTHING may change her mind. This is why any changes he makes must be for himself.
> 
> *We agree on this.*
> 
> I do see complaints from the W as a good guide on what one may want to work on though.
> 
> *Many times we see that a wife's complaints are actually a rewriting of the marriage and/or projections of her own unhappiness. There is no way Garry or any other husband can fix that.*


----------



## Garry2012

Bfree, that is how I feel. I cant get through to her at all. So I have detached (with anger).


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## AlmostYoung

turnera said:


> We talk about it all the time, on dozens of threads that I am on. The 'plan' in general around here is:
> If infidelity is present, tackle that first - the OM/OW HAS to go.
> If it's not present, stop begging the person to stay, respect them, GAL, go to therapy to work on FOO issues, and start improving yourself so your spouse - or the next person - will benefit from the new, improved you.


Fair enough. I've been off this board until recently. 

If this is the plan, why is Garry only now talking about GAL? 



> Because of this, I dont have many hobbies other than my kids. So, yeah, I do need to get back to thinking about me.


Could it be the above plan wasn't advised as actively as it should have been? He's been here 5 months looking for answers!

Also, and most importantly in Garry's case, MLC is an entirely different animal than your routine A.


----------



## bfree

Garry2012 said:


> I have blame in all this, I dont shy away from that. I think by most counts, and her own family, I have been a great husband, even by her own statements less than a year ago.
> 
> When she first asked for space 5 months ago, I moved to another bedroom, and we basically separated at that point-though lived in the same house. I essentially was doing the 180 then, not on purpose, as I didnt know anything then. I actually thought she just needed space from me. So, the 3 week time frame i mentioned, is me moving on. Like to many others on here, my world revolved around her. When she was unhappy, I tried to make her happy. when she was sick, I waited on her hand and foot. If she wanted to go out, I watched the kids. When she wanted to over indulge in alchohol, I stayed sober to watch the kids. When she insisted that all the men in her life her friends, I tried to accept it, though that is what we fought about for the last two years.
> 
> Because of this, I dont have many hobbies other than my kids. So, yeah, I do need to get back to thinking about me. I will also say that I probably am driving her away more with my anger, because of not only the EA/PA she had, but the total disregard for our marriage, the lies, and the pain she will cause our kids.
> 
> Like a friend of mine said, she is unhappy with herself, and is projecting that onto me. I really believe that. She is very confused I think at this point. She knows how angry I am at her, so she would never approach me, which is something i need to change for sure.


It sounds like you have done and are doing everything you can from your side. Detach from her and find your own path. The one thing I will suggest, and it won't be easy, is to stop showing her anger. That keeps you engaged and its not productive. You need to demonstrate an aloof and ambivalent posture. That is what is needed here at this point. Remember that hate and love are two sides of the same coin. You need to toss that coin in a wishing well because that is all that its good for now.


----------



## Garry2012

AlmostYoung said:


> Fair enough. I've been off this board until recently.
> 
> If this is the plan, why is Garry only now talking about GAL?
> 
> 
> 
> Could it be the above plan wasn't advised as actively as it should have been? He's been here 5 months looking for answers!
> 
> Also, and most importantly in Garry's case, MLC is an entirely different animal than your routine A.


I just got on here in October. I didnt know what the heck to do, and was lost. I sort of detached in June-November, but trying to argue/reason her back. I have learned alot on here, that is why I have detached more now.


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## Garry2012

bfree said:


> It sounds like you have done and are doing everything you can from your side. Detach from her and find your own path. The one thing I will suggest, and it won't be easy, is to stop showing her anger. That keeps you engaged and its not productive. You need to demonstrate an aloof and ambivalent posture. That is what is needed here at this point. Remember that hate and love are two sides of the same coin. You need to toss that coin in a wishing well because that is all that its good for now.


yeah, that is my biggest challenge...controlling the anger. I know it just makes it worse, but I cant stop it most of the time. Its just directed at her. So i am happy with the kids etc, just when she talks to me etc., i get angry.


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## bfree

Garry2012 said:


> yeah, that is my biggest challenge...controlling the anger. I know it just makes it worse, but I cant stop it most of the time. Its just directed at her. So i am happy with the kids etc, just when she talks to me etc., i get angry.


Have you tried weightlifting to purge those angry feelings? If not I suggest it strongly. I know when I get angry I tend to talk with my hands and express myself with heavy arm movements. When your arms are almost too sore to lift you tend to get angry a lot less simply because you can't express it in the normal way. Keep working on it. You'll be ok.


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## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> yeah, that is my biggest challenge...controlling the anger. I know it just makes it worse, but I cant stop it most of the time. Its just directed at her. So i am happy with the kids etc, just when she talks to me etc., i get angry.


I know it's hard. Believe me I know!! I wanted to scratch my ex's eyes out daily when we were going through our situation. He just made me so sick. 

You have to find a way to not lash out. Maybe when she talks to you count to 5 (1 one thousand, 2 one thousand) before you answer her. It gives you time to calm down and measure your anger. You want to project ambivalence, just as bfree says. Taking time to respond to her does work. It just takes lots of patience!


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## turnera

I was just going to suggest karate or kickboxing!


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## A Bit Much

Kickboxing. It totally worked for me too. Punching and kicking things makes you feel GOOD.


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## Garry2012

I work out daily, and when i talk to the kids or i am at work, im happy etc. All she has to do is say something to me, and my mood changes. I have done better, but she senses the anger, and we had some heated exchanges, so she is convinced i hate her. I will be good once she is out, and the kids are ok. That stresses me alot...like most parents, i see myself as their protector, and I cant protect them from the on coming pain. I just hope they are as resilient as some say they are.

I really do need a boxing class. lol


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## turnera

Who cares if she thinks you hate her?


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## A Bit Much

I wouldn't give a rats ass what she thought about me. You shouldn't care if she hates you either. Her feelings are no longer important.


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## Garry2012

No i dont care, your right. But even this who concept of "be all that you can be" etc, wont work...she is convinced i hate her (not far off either). So at this point i am working on being all i can be for the next woman in my life and my kids. 

So frustrating that she doesnt even talk to me.


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> No i dont care, your right. But even this who concept of "be all that you can be" etc, wont work...she is convinced i hate her (not far off either). So at this point i am working on being all i can be for the next woman in my life and my kids.
> 
> So frustrating that she doesnt even talk to me.


She has to deal with her bs if she talks to you Garry. She's about AVOIDING it so naturally that means avoiding you (the source of her misery). 

The honest truth is it's not YOU that is making her miserable. Her issue is within herself and her inability to sustain her own happiness within your marriage. She finds flaws in it because she finds flaws in herself. It's just projected onto you. She'll see that once she's out and done, the problem always began within herself. She has to lose you first though.


----------



## Garry2012

A Bit Much said:


> She has to deal with her bs if she talks to you Garry. She's about AVOIDING it so naturally that means avoiding you (the source of her misery).
> 
> The honest truth is it's not YOU that is making her miserable. Her issue is within herself and her inability to sustain her own happiness within your marriage. She finds flaws in it because she finds flaws in herself. It's just projected onto you. She'll see that once she's out and done, the problem always began within herself. She has to lose you first though.


wow, that is exactly what i told myself this am. She is projecting her unhappiness onto me. Her frustration with her whole life. Ill just keep working on myself and moving on, only thing I can do. Keep working out, work on being happy and less angry, moving on. If she wants to follow, fine. Prob not, and that is ok at this point too.


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## Garry2012

Yeah, at this point i feel like D is coming. Though i am willing to avoid if at all possible. I do feel like i have the burden of the kids and the M to myself, she doesnt care. When she did talk, we discussed the pain to the kids, her only response, "they will be fine". She doesnt want to talk about anything...which fuels my anger. Wont talk about the OM, answer simple questions about D, nothing. If i could fight her for full custody at this point, i would.

I am much closer to the kids than her, so i think at least the oldest will come live with me in two years. The others may follow. Her family will figure it out (even if i have to lead them to the truth), so she will be a sad, sad case in a couple years. Everyone that cared for her (other than her new man) will think of her differently, or be gone from her life.


----------



## bfree

Zanne said:


> Thank you, Decorum. I do need to post my story at some point to address issues of my own M.
> 
> Again, I respect the advice here and I understand "the plan" that you all talk about, but I don't think it hurts to play devils advocate and have Garry think twice about D and to also address his part in his failing M, which I think he has shared more in recent posts. As a Christian, I feel very strongly about the sanctity of marriage. Unfortunately, it seems inevitable that his M will be another statistic.


I agree with you regarding the sanctity of marriage. Although I am not overly religious my feeling is that marriage should only be ended in cases of abandonment or infidelity. There are so many avenues available to address marital problems that I still think many marriages that end could have been saved. Unfortunately it takes two to make a marriage and it takes two to save a marriage. The sad thing is that recent surveys have shown that most people (85% if I am not mistaken) who got divorced regretted it. If only they had been able to have a little foresight maybe their lives and marriage would have turned out better.


----------



## AlmostYoung

bfree said:


> There are so many avenues available to address marital problems that I still think many marriages that end could have been saved. Unfortunately it takes two to make a marriage and it takes two to save a marriage. *The sad thing is that recent surveys have shown that most people (85% if I am not mistaken) who got divorced regretted it.* If only they had been able to have a little foresight maybe their lives and marriage would have turned out better.


And second marriages face an even higher divorce rate than first marriages. All the more reason in my mind to not give up too easily and sign up for the pain and regret of D. 

While it is true that ultimately it takes both partners to save a marriage, it only takes one to start the process. In fact, since one has declared they are done, this is exactly the way it always starts in marriages that eventually reconcile.

Yes, a little more foresight is definitely in order.


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## Garry2012

I do appreciate everyone's input. Although I fight back at time, It does make me defend my position... Which makes you think more about it... Which is good. There is a song quote I listen too " I am forced to make a decision that is not mine"... So true. I hope that the weight of the impeding divorce penetrates her denial... But certainly not counting on it. My goal now is to be upbeat and funny, and run the house as though she isn't there. That's who my kids need today, tomorrow and in the future.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Garry2012

So she went out last night...I didnt care what time she came in, and dont care today. I must be moving to the acceptance phase..a least a little. Funny, then she posted a pic of her with her female friend at the place she said she was going...pic looks like crap (so not her to post a bad pic of herself)...but it was as though she is trying to prove to me that she was where she said, with who she said. I was ok if she was on a date with OM....I have begun to move on.


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## turnera

Sounds like it.


----------



## jarhed

It differs from state-to-state, but if you have proof of infidelity it could save you the alimony part$$$ 

You may have to hire a PI. You having evidence to convince YOU is much different than what the law requires. 

Then use the evidence as a fulcrum - say you will show the video / or audio to her family/friends.


----------



## AlmostYoung

Garry2012 said:


> So she went out last night...I didnt care what time she came in, and dont care today. I must be moving to the acceptance phase..a least a little.


Good, don’t allow her actions to rule your world. But I sense a little bitterness in your words. Work on losing that, because it's not helping you or your M.



> Funny, then she posted a pic of her with her female friend at the place she said she was going...pic looks like crap (so not her to post a bad pic of herself)...but it was as though she is trying to prove to me that she was where she said, with who she said.


Why even look at what she’s posting? It only causes you pain and keeps the focus on her. This is not how you move on. 

Stop following her and concentrate on making an exciting life for yourself, the type of life any woman would love to be part of. 

If you’ve been hanging on and pursuing her, you know it hasn’t worked. You have to change things up here. If you stop paying attention to her, she will notice! She will become curious as to what's going on in YOUR life. Make sense?

Moving on doesn’t mean you give up all hope. There can always be hope, but no expectations. Okay? 

In your next post I want to hear about what new and exciting things are going on in your life.


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## Chaparral

I would recommend deleteing her from your friends lsit and blocking her.


----------



## Garry2012

AlmostYoung said:


> Good, don’t allow her actions to rule your world. But I sense a little bitterness in your words. Work on losing that, because it's not helping you or your M.
> 
> 
> 
> Why even look at what she’s posting? It only causes you pain and keeps the focus on her. This is not how you move on.
> 
> Stop following her and concentrate on making an exciting life for yourself, the type of life any woman would love to be part of.
> 
> If you’ve been hanging on and pursuing her, you know it hasn’t worked. You have to change things up here. If you stop paying attention to her, she will notice! She will become curious as to what's going on in YOUR life. Make sense?
> 
> Moving on doesn’t mean you give up all hope. There can always be hope, but no expectations. Okay?
> 
> In your next post I want to hear about what new and exciting things are going on in your life.


To some extent, I have to get used to not watching what she is doing...I have watched her like a hawk for 2 years to see what she is up to. I dont feel any bitternesss, but I am working on it every day. As far as the post, I dont purposely look at her FB, but since we are linked, i get a notification. Good way to share kid pics, especially once D, but maybe we do it another way.


----------



## Garry2012

jarhed said:


> It differs from state-to-state, but if you have proof of infidelity it could save you the alimony part$$$
> 
> You may have to hire a PI. You having evidence to convince YOU is much different than what the law requires.
> 
> Then use the evidence as a fulcrum - say you will show the video / or audio to her family/friends.


Oh yeah, that is by far my biggest asset....telling her family. And she knows it.

I talked with a lawyer some time ago about the infidelity evidence. BAsically have to have pics of him and her in embrace etc. It will swing your $$$ to a better percentage, thats about the extent of it. So far, she doenst want much, and frankly she knows i dont have much to give her anyway...been trying to make ends meet so she could be a SAHM. Which, BTW, she now resents me for.

If she wants to fight, I will let her know I will drive to her family and have a nice round table discussion about their "sweet innocent" relative. She is very scared of that....thankfully.


----------



## Garry2012

chapparal said:


> I would recommend deleteing her from your friends lsit and blocking her.


Been thinking about it...


----------



## GutPunch

WOW! Man Garry our situations are eerily similar. Let me guess, you are the responsible one. Makes sure kids homework, supplies, were taken care of. Also pretty sure you always managed to take care of your wife as well. I tried and tried to make my wife happy to no avail. Now she's got a small apartment and no kids and I truly believe she is happier. While I am left to carry the load. I feel your pain. Sad thing is, if my wife begged forgiveness, I'd probably cave.


----------



## Garry2012

GutPunch said:


> WOW! Man Garry our situations are eerily similar. Let me guess, you are the responsible one. Makes sure kids homework, supplies, were taken care of. Also pretty sure you always managed to take care of your wife as well. I tried and tried to make my wife happy to no avail. Now she's got a small apartment and no kids and I truly believe she is happier. While I am left to carry the load. I feel your pain. Sad thing is, if my wife begged forgiveness, I'd probably cave.


Yeah, there are a few stories on here like us. True to script, yes it is my fault. I was too controlling and jealous and she fell out of love with me (of course, I should have been more accepting of the 3-4 men that crossed the marriage boundary-including the EA/PA).

All i did was to make her happy. The more people I talk to, including my friend who is a MC, this isnt about me. SHE is the one who is unhappy with who she is, and I cant fix it. Thats why the advice is to just work on yourself, get happy, and move on with your life. If she wants back onboard, SHE needs to put forth the effort. I dont know if I would cave or not. Maybe, but she would have to dramatcally change her life, get rid of ALL male friends etc. I dont think its something i have to worry about.


----------



## VFW

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah, there are a few stories on here like us. True to script, yes it is my fault. I was too controlling and jealous and she fell out of love with me (of course, I should have been more accepting of the 3-4 men that crossed the marriage boundary-including the EA/PA).
> 
> All i did was to make her happy. The more people I talk to, including my friend who is a MC, this isnt about me. SHE is the one who is unhappy with who she is, and I cant fix it. Thats why the advice is to just work on yourself, get happy, and move on with your life. If she wants back onboard, SHE needs to put forth the effort. I dont know if I would cave or not. Maybe, but she would have to dramatcally change her life, get rid of ALL male friends etc. I dont think its something i have to worry about.


You just saved yourself a lot of heartache, it has nothing to do with you, it has to do with them. No matter if you were Superman, this still would have happened. I wish you a very Merry Christmas.


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## Garry2012

Not much has changed. While we cooperated somewhat for Christmas..making dinners and shopping for the kids, I continue to move on with my life, and the 180. I was off work for about two weeks, which she spent the majority of time in her bedroom, and I spent with the kids. I went out a couple of times with my friends etc. Seems like she is depressed and looks like crap, but i have done my best to be happy, playful with the kids, and upbeat.

To my knowledge, she has not done any job hunting is the last two weeks at all. The 61 day waiting period for the divorce ends on 1/21, so I now really need to meet with an attorney to see what my options are in terms of finalizing the divorce, whether she has a job or not.


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## tryingtobebetter

What will you say if she says she has suddenly realised what a fool she has been?

It could happen.


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## Garry2012

I would agree with her....I fully expect her to at some point. Thats why i want to just finalize this and move on. I am worried that she may not sign the papers to stretch this out.

Since I havent done a good job hiding my anger (initially--much better now), she knows it would be a hard climb uphill, and I dont think she is there yet. 

I honestly dont know, if she completely changed her lifestyle, dropped her male "friends" and gave me a full confession on the OM....I might try to go to MC for the kids to work it out. She is a long way from all that...she may be regretfull, but I think she still probably thinks its my overbearing jealousy that is the problem.


----------



## Garry2012

Ok, so here is the newest update:

Saturday night she texts me ( she is out of town with the kids-at her mom's house) and tells me "I have a job, I start Monday..I am bringing her home with me to watch the kids." I text back :"ok, but just so you know, my MIL living with me is NOT a long term solution." Then she got irritated when i asked about her getting an apartment.

So, they show up yesterday, MIL her AND FIL. So, here i am, 3-1, and she is making it obvious that she is trying to bait me into getting angry so she can show them we "argue all the time". 

I guess the FIL is there for moral support, and to protect her from the evil STBXH-me.


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## A Bit Much

They still don't know why you're divorcing? The truth?


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## Garry2012

They do know that we are divorcing now (though i had to ask stbxw) but the truth? heck no. She is spreading the propaganda about us fighting all the time. Two weeks from today is the 61 day waiting period. I told her this am that i want to tie down all the details so i can file the divorce papers. She didnt answer. My guess is she will try to postpone the filing...buying herself some time.


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## A Bit Much

I'm surprised they haven't tried to have a chat with you. I'd have a tough time staying there (as a parent) under the circumstances. Especially if they get along with you very well... I would have to at least bring it up.


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## Garry2012

A Bit Much said:


> I'm surprised they haven't tried to have a chat with you. I'd have a tough time staying there (as a parent) under the circumstances. Especially if they get along with you very well... I would have to at least bring it up.


It will come up with her mom (her dad barely talks). I think the Dad is there for support...the mom was probably afraid of being in the uncomfortable situation. She posted "awesome son" on my facebook about three months ago lol. 

I will talk to her to at least put the doubt in her mind that her daughter is perhaps not telling the whole truth. I want to see how much she has questioned the lies. It is very uncomfortable there...to say the least...the odds are not with me..3-1.


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## A Bit Much

Well I think they would support her whether they are in your home, or not. They're her parents. You shouldn't feel ganged up on just because of that.

If nothing else she's using them to buffer what's happening with you. The truth needs to be out there though. It's not to drive a wedge, but to preserve some peace for your own well being.


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## Garry2012

Yeah, i know. They need to support her...i know.

Honestly, I dont know what would happen if they new she was a cheater etc. They wouldnt necessarily support me, cause i will go away prob away, they are really no more than my kids grandparents. It would only serve to fracture my STBXW relationship with them. So, yeah, as much as i want them to know, and i do, i will wait to see if i can use that to my advantage and have my STBXW just walk away. I sent her a text a few minutes ago to try to gauge where she is on just walking away, or have her friends etc. convinced her she needs to screw me.


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## A Bit Much

Do you think she would tell you she plans on screwing you?


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## Garry2012

LOL...no. But she needs to tell me what she is expecting asset wise. On the phone with OM, and when i talked to her in Oct, she didnt want anything. I want to see what she now wants--I will make she assumption (sure as heck wouldnt rely on her "brain")


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## happyman64

Garry,

Sit your inlaws down like adults and tell them why you are really splitting up.

They will still side with your wife but at east they will have a clearer understanding of what is really going on in your marriage.

Tell them you are trying to keep it amicable for the kids but you can no longer sustain any more kicks to the groin area......

HM64


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## A Bit Much

She probably hasn't changed her mind since October, or I'm sure you would have heard about it. 

It's good news she has a job now though.


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## turnera

Garry2012 said:


> They do know that we are divorcing now (though i had to ask stbxw) but the truth? heck no. She is spreading the propaganda about us fighting all the time.


Great! Then they'll be under your roof and you'll have PLENTY of time to drop a ton of nuggets of truth about what she did. "Oh, this reminds me of how she skipped out on us that night to go meet up with POS, leaving me to handle the parents night alone." And so on.


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## Garry2012

yes very good news she has a job. I am pushing her to apartment shop this wknd. No excuse not to move out now (would have been nice to tell me more than a day out, but hey I have pretty low expections of her anyway.)

Not like i have tons of assets, but if she wants to be a tot bit, she can make it difficult. I doubt she has too, because a contested divorce will lead to full disclosure of her activities.

HG64--My plan is to at LEAST, sit them down and give them enough information to know that she has been lying to them--that they need to push for the truth. I have waited this long, with 2 weeks left until finalization, i want to take all my assets and complete the D as is.


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## Garry2012

turnera said:


> Great! Then they'll be under your roof and you'll have PLENTY of time to drop a ton of nuggets of truth about what she did. "Oh, this reminds me of how she skipped out on us that night to go meet up with POS, leaving me to handle the parents night alone." And so on.


YES!! While she is trying to use this against me (by trying to bait me into fighting with her), I have been thinking of how easy it will be to just drop little truth nuggets to get them thinking.


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## happyman64

Good plan Garry.

Show them the "truth" in your timeframe.

Be respectful. And re-assure them that the kids are your main priority.......


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## Garry2012

Yeah, I do want to take the "high road", though it is hard. There are others in the family too that i feel more comfortable leading the truth besides her mom and dad...let other fam members tell them.

Yeah, the kids are and have been my main priority.


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## bfree

All you have to do is drop this comment:

You can replace me if you want but I don't want that POS near the children.


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## frozen

> Yeah, I do want to take the "high road", though it is hard. There are others in the family too that i feel more comfortable leading the truth besides her mom and dad...let other fam members tell them.<br />
> <br />
> Yeah, the kids are and have been my main priority.


The truth is always relative. The truth is because whatever the obstacles are, your wife refused to even attempt MC to work on them. Make that clear to the in laws today!


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## Garry2012

bfree said:


> All you have to do is drop this comment:
> 
> You can replace me if you want but I don't want that POS near the children.


Yeah, any comment like that would so work.


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## bfree

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah, any comment like that would so work.


It may not "work" but wouldn't it be worth the price of admission?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Garry2012

yeah...just not with kids in the house.


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## turnera

Kids learn from your example. If you speak your truth and act with dignity and integrity, that's what will matter.


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## Garry2012

I agee Turnera. But it in all likelihood would turn into a not so pleasant a discussion. I dont want them to witness or hear.


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## turnera

Sometimes witnessing an unpleasantness is an excellent way to guide them and educate them in how to deal with issues in their own spheres.


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## happyman64

And Garry

It takes two to have a fight. It takes two to have an argument.

If she wants either and wants to do it in front of the kids.

Do not let her.

Do not let her suck you into her world.

She is the only one that wants to be there.

Make your point and move on.

And make sure your inlaws are witness to it. That will be an eye opener.


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## bfree

Garry2012 said:


> I agee Turnera. But it in all likelihood would turn into a not so pleasant a discussion. I dont want them to witness or hear.


I can understand about not wanting the children to see a fight involving the ones they love. But you could drop that type of statement and then table the argument until they have gone to bed. The way I see it is that her parents could potentially exert some influence on her if they knew what she was really doing. I'm not saying that the marriage could be saved or anything but maybe she could be rationalized with by someone other than you. She sees you as the enemy, maybe another logical viewpoint might help.


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## AlmostYoung

Yes Garry, do take the high road. Show no bitterness or vengefulness and you will never regret it in the end.

AND, you will have left the return road clear and paved.

Now there's a lesson for your kids.


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## Garry2012

Well, last night was better. I began to fully embrace the inlaws to show them that I have not changed. I also decided, since she refuses to answer any basic questions about the divorce etc, to start to discuss the matters in front of her mother. This serves as a nice forum to show her what is going on, and to dispell the spin that the STBXW has laid out about how awful i am.


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## happyman64

Good for you and I like your approach.

Use. Your inlaws. Awesome.


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## Garry2012

Yeah, I like it too. I have made sure not to avoid them (my first reaction) but to embrace them as always. I have been friendly, upbeat and positive. I also made it clear in the conversation last night that SHE wanted the divorce, and that it is HER wish so she can live the life SHE wants..and that it was NOT my wish.


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## turnera

Excellent.


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## Garry2012

So, I am seriously considering arranging a meeting with just me and the parents with the intent on discussing:

1) I appreciate them coming to help us out with watching the kids
2) Apologizing for them having to be in this situation.
3) Telling them that I dont know what their daughter has told them, but that she is in the throws of a mid life crisis.
4) I have fought to try to keep the marriage, but she refused MC, chose divorce and is determined to just leave, she just wants out.
5) She may need more support down the road when all the dust clears.

I would stay respectful and classy...not putting her down, but letting them know she is just very confused etc.

thoughts?


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## turnera

They're in your house. Why do you need to 'arrange' a meeting? 

My thoughts are, you never mentioned explaining in your 5-step plan that she CHEATED on you. Why waste your time if you aren't going to say that?


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## Garry2012

well, i have to show up when she isnt there and the kids arent there. So show up during the day or something. 

Yeah, I hesitate with that, they are her parents. I would tell them something to the effect that she has been engaging in activities that are very detrimental to the marriage, and that i had to file.

The timing is important, as again, this is the only bargaining chip i have to sway my STBXW from fighting anything in the divorce. She indicated she may want more, i indicated we may need to discuss more with her parents...i think that hit home with her.


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## keko

Garry2012 said:


> I would tell them something to the effect that she has been engaging in activities that are very detrimental to the marriage, and that i had to file.


Activities? What activities? Playing volleyball? Eating ice cream? Playing video games?


Just make it obvious enough for them to understand it without twisting words, "She's having an inappropriate relationship with another man...."


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## turnera

You know, then I'd just wait until the divorce is finalized before having the talk. There's no point having a talk until you can tell them the damn truth.


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## Garry2012

Maybe i should. If i tell them shes a cheater, my MIL would confront her and my easy D would go out the window.


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## frozen

turnera said:


> you never mentioned explaining in your 5-step plan that she CHEATED on you. Why waste your time if you aren't going to say that?


Garry doesn't have the hard evidence to throw around accusations as if they are facts. He heard inappropriate VAR but he could just as easily come off as a controlling jealous husband. 

The best he can hope for from his in-laws is to convince their daughter to make attempts at saving her family.


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## Garry2012

Frozen, I would say there is virtually zero chance of that. She is so angry right now (dont even know why) that she promised me last night the D would go through on time.


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## Garry2012

Anybody had that experience? That the STBX gets REALLY angry? we havent even talked really.


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## turnera

Probably just means her fantasy life is flying out the window. You know, where you pay her to live with the kids and date everyone and not have to work.

So of course it has to be your fault.


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## Garry2012

Its weird. We talked at Christmas etc, to coordinate everything. Then she left to go to Houston, and has been unbearably upset. Like, as mad as i was in the "anger stage". Seems to be directed at me...but we havent talked etc. Not much anyway. I did ask her if she has been apartment shopping, which upset her. But she clearly wants out....Heck, i cant even talk to her about the divorce..so is so angy...argg


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## frozen

Garry, I agree; and she is holding on to her anger to avoid hard work and confronting herself and her actions. 

I personally she is out of the fog but hiding from the truth. Admission of cheating without being confronted with hard evidence rarely occurs without some catalyst and she knows you would need such an admission. Hence she is angry because she feels forced to divorce and suffer. That's why she brought her parents- so she can have someone feeling sorry for her.

keep up the good relations with the in laws and keep the door open for reconciliation. Stranger things have sure happened.


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## Garry2012

I would very much agree with that. Seems like the guilt maybe, or realization of her new life, coupled with her ego to forge ahead with her plan, is driving her into the ground. She was really depressed looking over Christmas, now angry. 

I actually sent her a text today (mostly to get the chip off her shoulder and help the D process) that said "today i have alot of sympathy for you, you are in a tough state of mind, and i hope you have a good support network, now, and when your midlife fog clears, to help you."


----------



## keko

Garry2012 said:


> Frozen, I would say there is virtually zero chance of that. She is so angry right now (dont even know why) that she promised me last night the D would go through on time.





Garry2012 said:


> Anybody had that experience? That the STBX gets REALLY angry? we havent even talked really.


Why are you so afraid of her?


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## Garry2012

lol afraid? not at all. Just a curious observation. I like the "keep your friends close and your enemy closer" approach. I want to know where she is mentally if possible, to plan my counter attack. I am WAY past the afraid stage Keko.

I want to make calculated moves to keep her on track to walk out with very little to-do and not much in assets, like she originally wanted.


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## keko

You're not keeping her on track. Her affair drug is keeping her numb to the reality. When that stops she will change her position regardless if you exposed her or not.

Now when will her affair fog cool off? I don't know. Could be days, weeks, months or even years. But that shouldn't stop you from being not only honest with yourself but honest with her parents, family and other friends.


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## turnera

How long til the divorce is official?


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## Garry2012

I am ok now with her going. I am honest with myself and my friends, her family will get the truth when it benefits me. The only leverage i have in the divorce is the affair. I need to use it until we are final.


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## Garry2012

well, 1/21 is the earliest filing date


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## Garry2012

Well, i want to talk to the parents to clear the air, and let them know what is going on, up to but not including the OM. That way they know that i am not the monster she has portrayed. Her bad behaviour, and OM are what i am using as bargaining chips with her for now. Its not much, and may not work, but why rush to a bad divorce, if i can negotiate a settlement. 

The funny thing is, is that i havent done anything wrong, so she would have no reason to be so angry at me. She would have to go back to 15 years ago when we were dating to come up with stuff to blame me for. I would hope that would be as odd to others as it seems to me.


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## dallasapple

I understand what you are saying and you have been trying to say it for this entire thread.She will be more agreeable in the divorce settlement structure in your favor if you agree to not expose her behavior but especially her involvement with OM.For fear of you gaining full custody of the kids and sounds like being a disgrace to her family as well.I understand the custody aspect..but your wife is kind of dumb not realizing after you get what you want in the divorce nothing is stopping you from exposing her to the family.Maybe she plans on just trying to deny it or minimize it I dont know..But anyway I understand why it serves you no purpose other than the satisfaction of letting everyone know a heart issue for the failure of the marriage and its not your doing over and above what you have thats tangible to gain keeping quiet about it.Especially you can get that satisfaction later .(letting the cat out of the bag).You aren't letting your emotions rule you .


----------



## MegD

Garry2012 said:


> For 2 years i have been told i am a jealous maniac, not letting her talk to guys on facebook, being jealous about her male friend, or being a jerk when i get mad when she goes to a hobby group meeting from 6-10, then wants to go out with the group for drinks until midnight. I know she needs to get out, its hard to be in the house everyday all day. Things just didnt seem right.


There's a difference between being a jealous maniac & her husband. IF she were open about her conversations and not flirting that would be different. Cut her off and file for divorce. If she's smart she'll come running back, but don't make it easy if she does. Make her prove she's serious about your marriage.


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## dallasapple

Also I'm wondering if this anger she has is anger at herself that she is projecting onto you ?But she is too full of pride to admit she is making a mistake and come back crawling?OR because of those same reasons she is angry you aren't begging and crawling for her to please come back to you which would give her the excuse to stop all of this without having to lower her pride and be the beggar?


----------



## dallasapple

Hmm..more complete speculation of course..Im wondering if even subconcsioulsy because of her fear of getting older(and being "bored") then her changing her appearance and getting other mens heads turned (attention)she was attempting to 1) stir up drama (excitement) to 2)make you jealous and chase after her all over again to "convince her" to please not leave you acknowledging how fortunate you are to have her many other men would want her you see... reaffiriming in an exciting and dramatic way your attraction to her and your desire for her.

Mere jealousy and anger over her behavior and your demands for her to stop weren't what she was aiming for.It backfired.


----------



## Garry2012

dallasapple said:


> I understand what you are saying and you have been trying to say it for this entire thread.She will be more agreeable in the divorce settlement structure in your favor if you agree to not expose her behavior but especially her involvement with OM.For fear of you gaining full custody of the kids and sounds like being a disgrace to her family as well.I understand the custody aspect..but your wife is kind of dumb not realizing after you get what you want in the divorce nothing is stopping you from exposing her to the family.Maybe she plans on just trying to deny it or minimize it I dont know..But anyway I understand why it serves you no purpose other than the satisfaction of letting everyone know a heart issue for the failure of the marriage and its not your doing over and above what you have thats tangible to gain keeping quiet about it.Especially you can get that satisfaction later .(letting the cat out of the bag).You aren't letting your emotions rule you .


EXACTLY!!! thank you!


----------



## InMySkin

Okay, I am new to this site; I joined yesterday. This was a very interesting thread. However, I am only on page 19 and don't want to read 30 more pages of the same advice being given.

At any rate, from what I did read, I felt that you were paying more lip service to your issues, than actually dealing with them. I also agreed with most of the advice given.

What I would like to know, if you would be so kind as to oblige my questions is:

1. Did you ever confirm whether or not your wife was having an affair;

2. If so, how did you let your wife know that you were aware of her infidelity;

3. Did you ever cut off her funds?

4. What is the current status of your marriage?


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## AlmostYoung

Garry, are you to the point where you are certain you want to divorce her?



Garry2012 said:


> Her bad behaviour, and OM are what i am using as bargaining chips with her for now. Its not much, and may not work, *but why rush to a bad divorce,* if i can negotiate a settlement.


Why rush to any divorce, I'd say.


----------



## Garry2012

InMySkin said:


> Okay, I am new to this site; I joined yesterday. This was a very interesting thread. However, I am only on page 19 and don't want to read 30 more pages of the same advice being given.
> 
> At any rate, from what I did read, I felt that you were paying more lip service to your issues, than actually dealing with them. I also agreed with most of the advice given.
> 
> What I would like to know, if you would be so kind as to oblige my questions is:
> 
> 1. Did you ever confirm whether or not your wife was having an affair;
> 
> 2. If so, how did you let your wife know that you were aware of her infidelity;
> 
> 3. Did you ever cut off her funds?
> 
> 4. What is the current status of your marriage?


I have used the thread to talk to folks, as I needed a channel to vent and discuss. Yes, I recorded her talking to the OM on a burner phone, I confronted her about her affair and offered her the option of working on the marriage or the divorce, she chose divorce. I did cut off her funds, and we are two weeks away from finalizing the divorce. So I certainly have taken action.


----------



## Garry2012

AlmostYoung said:


> Garry, are you to the point where you are certain you want to divorce her?
> 
> 
> 
> Why rush to any divorce, I'd say.


I dont want divorce AT ALL. But, since she refuses to work on the marriage or to drop the OM, i feel i have no choice. If she wont respect me, I dont want her in my life, period.


----------



## AlmostYoung

Garry2012 said:


> *I dont want divorce AT ALL.* But, since she refuses to work on the marriage or to drop the OM, i feel i have no choice. If she wont respect me, I dont want her in my life, period.


Since you have kids, she’ll be in your life forevermore, like it or not.

If you don’t want D, you don’t initiate or facilitate the process. This is Divorce Busting 101.

Often, the WAS is not interested in working on the M at the present time. This doesn’t mean they never will be. If you are not up for waiting, I understand… that is the choice we all get to make as the LBS. But don’t assume for a minute that going through with the D is your quick ticket to everlasting happiness, because it is not. 

Unfortunately, you will be in for a lot of pain and heartache either way you go here.


----------



## A Bit Much

If there's pain either way, then it doesn't matter what steps Garry takes. The result will be the same.

One way will surely end the threesome he's not interested in being a part of, and I can't blame him for that one bit. If and when she decides to come back and make things right, he has to do what he needs to do to protect himself.


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## Garry2012

I am sure not under the illusion that D is the answer at all. The whole process is pain, and will continue for some time.


----------



## InMySkin

Garry2012 said:


> I have used the thread to talk to folks, as I needed a channel to vent and discuss. Yes, I recorded her talking to the OM on a burner phone, I confronted her about her affair and offered her the option of working on the marriage or the divorce, she chose divorce. I did cut off her funds, and we are two weeks away from finalizing the divorce. So I certainly have taken action.




Sorry to hear that it came to that. But it's good for you, even though it may not seem so at present, that you have taken the steps to move forward.


----------



## Garry2012

InMySkin said:


> Sorry to hear that it came to that. But it's good for you, even though it may not seem so at present, that you have taken the steps to move forward.


At some level I question the decision every day. I question the action i have taken and continue to take. I hope it works out, though it will never the be the future i wanted...as it isnt for anyone in this place.

She wants out more today than two months ago. The more I have done the 180, the more she seems gone.


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## Garry2012

TY Zanne. I look forward to her showing some remorse at some time in her life, but at this point, i dont expect it.


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## Garry2012

No she hasnt. I know that.


----------



## frozen

Garry2012 said:


> No she hasnt. I know that.


I heard there was a drug invented which imparted the wisdom of finding happiness within oneself but the divorce attorney lobby quashed it 

The simplest concept is often the hardest to understand. I pray she gets it before its too late.


----------



## moonflower92

As a wife who has been dealing with a possible mlc, I can say the posts about being hard on her might work. My husband has been very lovey and whiny about me not showing affection. Very insecure and needy. That is a total turn off. If he would say....things are gonna change or it's divorce I might take a second look.


----------



## frozen

moonflower92 said:


> As a wife who has been dealing with a possible mlc, I can say the posts about being hard on her might work. My husband has been very lovey and whiny about me not showing affection. Very insecure and needy. That is a total turn off. If he would say....things are gonna change or it's divorce I might take a second look.


Did you ever tell him this or should he read your mind? Do you think he was taught the psychology in relationships by his parents?


----------



## Garry2012

Well, last night i got served. So, not unexpectedly-like everyone on here has predicted, she now wants more. This morning she agreed to mediation..but she has to recind/revoke/cancel the suit (which throws me out of the house)

Her parents support her 100%--wont even entertain the thought that she maybe is having an affair. You all predicted that as well. The woman who 2 months ago called me "awesome son", now thinks i was not a good husband, which is what caused the problem.


----------



## MegD

I'm sorry this is happening to you. She knows she is in the wrong, but she won't admit it. I hope something works out in mediation because I'd hate to have to see you suffer through court on top of all of this... How does that kick you out of the house?
Parents will always stand by their children. Just like you want to believe you're children are perfect and never in the wrong her parents want to believe she's not in the wrong. They may never listen...


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> Well, last night i got served. So, not unexpectedly-like everyone on here has predicted, she now wants more. This morning she agreed to mediation..but she has to recind/revoke/cancel the suit (which throws me out of the house)
> 
> Her parents support her 100%--wont even entertain the thought that she maybe is having an affair. You all predicted that as well. The woman who 2 months ago called me "awesome son", now thinks i was not a good husband, which is what caused the problem.


She got the money from them to serve you and had them there to temper the climate in the house. Brilliant.

And I know you didn't want to blow this up at Thanksgiving, but I was one of those people who said everyone should know back then. Well it is what it is. She wants to throw you out of the house huh? Well that's interesting. She expect you to pay for it too?


----------



## turnera

Time for a GREAT conversation with her parents, then.


----------



## happyman64

:iagree:

Totally. A perfect time for a conversation.

No More Mr. Nice Guy!


----------



## A Bit Much

Grab the VAR recording and just hit play with all of them in the living room. 

BOOM.


----------



## Garry2012

I tried to talk to them, sat down with them this AM. They just wont have any of it. Both of them are burying their heads in the sand. She isnt having an affair, because she said so. 

I think, honestly, if i played the VAR, they would not listen...walk out of the room.

I have been advised several times to not admit that i recorded her talking to him. Not sure if there is a legal ramification or not.


----------



## Garry2012

Last night i said " i know your having an affair, and you have a gophone"
She said "prove it"
Well 1)just the fact that your are asking for proof and not denying is an admission. and 2) You me and God know, and everytime you look in the mirror you have to deal with the lie. That is good enough for me.


----------



## turnera

I guess you're gonna have to be an *******, then.


----------



## A Bit Much

So this is how it ends Garry? She has an affair, throws it in your face, serves you and wants you to move out of your house with her parents standing behind her with pitchforks and torches?

Is this how you're going out?


----------



## Garry2012

hell no....im getting an attorney too
.


----------



## A Bit Much

You know, you're a nice guy. I don't know you personally but just from what you've posted on TAM, you're a nice guy.

This unfortunately works to your disadvantage. The MOMENT you found out she had OM you should have let her have it. By being nice, she's backed you into a corner and has also managed to have a gang of fools behind her over her lies. Instead of damage control you would be CAUSING a lot of it. At her expense.

She stopped being your friend and wife a long time ago. Just the way shes going about this says it all.


----------



## Garry2012

Admittedly I am. I always put my family, and her first and foremost. Her throwing that in my face was one thing, her parents blind belief in her is amazing.

She is below scum in my opinion now. I have a few miserable people in my family, she takes the cake.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Garry2012 said:


> Admittedly I am. I always put my family, and her first and foremost. Her throwing that in my face was one thing, her parents blind belief in her is amazing.
> 
> She is below scum in my opinion now. I have a few miserable people in my family, she takes the cake.


So after all that you did, she and they turn on you and attach you. Let em give you some words of wisdom:

"Now remember, when things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is." - Josey Wales.

This needs to be yoru creed for the near future.


----------



## A Bit Much

Gloves are off. Show her your fangs Garry. :FIREdevil:


----------



## Garry2012

the dumb part is...there is almost nothing to fight about. I have literally poured everything into letting her stay home. She is fighting over almost nothing. Accused me of "hiding assets"...really?!?! then why are we so far in debt?


----------



## Garry2012

Tall Average Guy said:


> So after all that you did, she and they turn on you and attach you. Let em give you some words of wisdom:
> 
> "Now remember, when things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is." - Josey Wales.
> 
> This needs to be yoru creed for the near future.


Yeah, that was the hard lesson from yesterday. My MIL adored me too...always called me son etc. Now its all my fault and her daughter is right. It truly shakes your belief in humanity.


----------



## A Bit Much

> Accused me of "hiding assets"...really?!?! then why are we so far in debt?


That actually means 'cut her off'. You haven't hidden anything, just stopped giving her access to the money YOU bring in to the household.

It's attorney jargon. Don't allow any of that to sway you, that's what she wants. She knows your a nice guy so you are supposed to take what she gives you. Remember that and do the opposite. Don't take ANY MORE of her BS. She needs to see just how much she's screwed up here. Show her.


----------



## anchorwatch

Gary i don't understand? You said your were saving the exposure for a better settlement. Now there will be nothing to really settle about, what's stopping you from playing the recording and putting the full truth in front of everyone now and have her answer for it.


----------



## turnera

Really. If you have nothing to settle, nothing to give up (except debt), what are you worried about? Custody? Or just having to pay her more money?


----------



## Garry2012

turnera said:


> Really. If you have nothing to settle, nothing to give up (except debt), what are you worried about? Custody? Or just having to pay her more money?


I will get joint custody. We have little cash, and our 401k are about the same...so. she will prob ask for a crazy amount of child support--forcing me to sell everything. I will need to fight that.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Garry2012 said:


> I will get joint custody. We have little cash, and our 401k are about the same...so. she will prob ask for a crazy amount of child support--forcing me to sell everything. I will need to fight that.


Except you may have lost that bargaining chip. Her parents refuse to listen to you, and by your own admission may even refuse to listen to the tape. I think waiting longer is only going to reduce the effectiveness of it. Exposing now may undercut the support her parents are giving her.


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> I will get joint custody. We have little cash, and our 401k are about the same...so. she will prob ask for a crazy amount of child support--forcing me to sell everything. I will need to fight that.


She can't ask for more than your state allows. For 2 kids in IL it's 25% of your gross income. How many kids do you have?

She can fight over the household items, but IMO those are negligable. You can always buy new furniture and kitchenware. The one that bites are little things like photos, computers, pets. These are harder to negotiate.

As for the debt? I know you don't want to, but a look into filing Ch. 7 wouldn't hurt.


----------



## Garry2012

Tall Average Guy said:


> Except you may have lost that bargaining chip. Her parents refuse to listen to you, and by your own admission may even refuse to listen to the tape. I think waiting longer is only going to reduce the effectiveness of it. Exposing now may undercut the support her parents are giving her.


I have told them point blank, she is having an emotional, and probably a physical affair, that she has a gophone that she has used to talk to the other man. They said they dont want to hear it.


----------



## A Bit Much

I'd play it for HER. Her parents are going to blindly turn an eye, but I would love to see the look on her face for myself.

In the end really all that matter is you PROVED it. Like she threatened you to. There's satisfaction to be had with that.


----------



## A Bit Much

And let me add, it's pretty damn ballsy to be up *in your house *while any of this is going on. Her parents aren't as 'great' as you thought. If they were they would be minding their business and supporting their daughter from their own residence.


----------



## Garry2012

I will ask my attorny about the ramifications of recording someone


----------



## Garry2012

A Bit Much said:


> And let me add, it's pretty damn ballsy to be up *in your house *while any of this is going on. Her parents aren't as 'great' as you thought. If they were they would be minding their business and supporting their daughter from their own residence.


No, they arent at all. I think they are as low as her for falling for all this. I will never forgive them either. The mother was to be here to watch the kids, but he came along for support to make sure i didnt harm them i guess (have NEVER raised a hand her).


----------



## turnera

I'm sure that's not what SHE has said.


----------



## Garry2012

right...im sure im an abuser too.


----------



## livinfree

Damn, Garry I totally feel your plight. I have a stbx that just cannot not swallow her pride grasping at everything to make me look bad. Her latest routine is calling me narcissistic.

Good luck I'm watching your thread because your wife and mine are creepy similar in the fact that there is no remorse, all my fault, no support from family and refuses to GTFO out of the house to live her own life. 

These are not run of the mill WW, they are 180 immune and threat of divorce immune it's a whole new subset. Seriously.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah, the 180 just conviced her that i dont care...so it drove her further away. Cutting off her funds, motivated her to sue me because i was such an a$$. Wont leave because its her house too, and has 100% support from parents--she has totally brainwashed them not even to entertain the thought that she is cheating. When i go to the attorney tomorrow (he specializes in the male side) I am going to ask him about any legal ramifications of revealing the recording.

I have come to accept her taking this route, but the blindness of her parents is shocking to me. Use your brain...you can support her, but not condone her behavior..there is a difference.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Garry2012 said:


> No, they arent at all. I think they are as low as her for falling for all this. I will never forgive them either. The mother was to be here to watch the kids, but he came along for support to make sure i didnt harm them i guess (have NEVER raised a hand her).


Hold on a bit. You were the one who did not want the truth to come out. You refused to expose, let her lay the ground work for why the marriage was disolving. I get that you are mad at them, but turn some of that anger on yourself. You chose not to expose, and this is what happened. 

You can't continue to be so nice, then wonder why she is taking advantage of you.


----------



## Garry2012

Tall Average Guy said:


> Hold on a bit. You were the one who did not want the truth to come out. You refused to expose, let her lay the ground work for why the marriage was disolving. I get that you are mad at them, but turn some of that anger on yourself. You chose not to expose, and this is what happened.
> 
> You can't continue to be so nice, then wonder why she is taking advantage of you.


Yeah, i suppose i deserve that. I tried to take the high road and got burned. At some level i am ok with that. I expected more from her family.


----------



## Garry2012

But if someone refuses to admit...what would convice them? I think at this point, if i had a picture of her in anothers arms, she would tell them he was a friend, and they would agree.


----------



## turnera

Well, you could always print out this thread for them. THAT would be an eye-opener.


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> But if someone refuses to admit...what would convice them? I think at this point, if i had a picture of her in anothers arms, she would tell them he was a friend, and they would agree.


All it would take is a short car ride. Tell her you want to talk to her in private and play the recording for her after a few minutes.


----------



## livinfree

Garry2012 said:


> I have come to accept her taking this route, but the blindness of her parents is shocking to me. Use your brain...you can support her, but not condone her behavior..there is a difference.


It won't matter. That's the position I am in now. My stbx has spun to the MIL that my exposure, expressions of truth and have all been acts of a jealous husband that won't let her daughter go and be free and hell bent on vengeance. My MIL is on her fourth marriage and had hubby #4(then boyfriend and 20 years her junior) taken in as a boarder while living with hubby #3.

Bottom line: Don't give a fvck what anyone thinks. It won't / doesn't matter.


----------



## Garry2012

turnera said:


> Well, you could always print out this thread for them. THAT would be an eye-opener.


I have told both of them that I posted her scenario out to prob 300 people, with 295 saying she has an affiar. 

THEY DONT CARE...they said "well, you shouldnt be putting that out on the internet for strangers."


----------



## A Bit Much

Show your STBXW the proof you have. Get her alone to talk, and press play. It doesn't matter what her parents think, this is true. BUT, your wife thinks you're full of shet. Show her you're far from it.


----------



## Garry2012

This is why i wanted better proof frankly. So it couldnt be disputed. In the end, me and her know...I suppose that is all that is necessary. I just hope someday the fog clears...hard to imagine at this point.


----------



## frozen

Garry2012 said:


> This is why i wanted better proof frankly. So it couldnt be disputed. In the end, me and her know...I suppose that is all that is necessary. I just hope someday the fog clears...hard to imagine at this point.


i wouldn't be surprised of she called OM before she bought burner phone. Can you get a call log from phone company for the last year to review? Maybe you can find a pattern?


----------



## zillard

How good is your poker face? 

Play SOME of what you have for her and tell her there is more (that's true). Let her worry about HOW much more.


----------



## AlmostYoung

I doubt any more exposure is going to help. Like you suspect Garry, even if you played hours of tapes and showed dozens of pictures, it won't matter. If you do manage to convince them there is/was an affair, they will consider it your fault, because obviously you must have drove her to it. 

Any more exposure/playing the A card will only make her and her parents more bitter and make things even worse for you.

And to the I told you so's, exposing earlier often doesn't work either, so don't beat yourself up over this now Garry. *You* can look into the mirror and have respect for the person you see. Can they? Your goal should be to maintain the high road _for yourself _going forward.

Years from now when everyone looks back, they will see the truth and how you handled this.


----------



## frozen

AlmostYoung said:


> I doubt any more exposure is going to help. Like you suspect Garry, even if you played hours of tapes and showed dozens of pictures, it won't matter. If you do manage to convince them there is/was an affair, they will consider it your fault, because obviously you must have drove her to it.
> 
> Any more exposure/playing the A card will only make her and her parents more bitter and make things even worse for you.
> 
> And to the I told you so's, exposing earlier often doesn't work either, so don't beat yourself up over this now Garry. *You* can look into the mirror and have respect for the person you see. Can they? Your goal should be to maintain the high road _for yourself _going forward.
> 
> Years from now when everyone looks back, they will see the truth and how you handled this.


Sorry I don't agree. The high road will only cost money. 

If he can name OM in the divorce stbxw will be shocked. Perhaps her tune will change.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah, i suppose i deserve that. I tried to take the high road and got burned. At some level i am ok with that. I expected more from her family.


I was not trying to beat up on you, only note that it is hard enough for her parents to not side with her. By not giving them that information, you let your wife poison the well.

Were it me, I would still expose with the information I have. Lay it all out for them and let them know that she is the one throwing away the marriage. Odds are it will not work, but I don't see the current course of action being successful


----------



## Garry2012

frozen said:


> i wouldn't be surprised of she called OM before she bought burner phone. Can you get a call log from phone company for the last year to review? Maybe you can find a pattern?


I fully concur. It had to have started as a hello etc, and grew from there. I tried. She has so many various phone numbers on there, i cant find anyting that stood out.


----------



## Garry2012

Tall Average Guy said:


> I was not trying to beat up on you, only note that it is hard enough for her parents to not side with her. By not giving them that information, you let your wife poison the well.
> 
> Were it me, I would still expose with the information I have. Lay it all out for them and let them know that she is the one throwing away the marriage. Odds are it will not work, but I don't see the current course of action being successful


No offense taken. I tried to be the "good guy" and not reveal her affair to protect her from her family. I NEVER thought her family would completely turn their back on me. I know they will support her, they should...but not even listen to me at all? shocking that people can be that ignorant.


----------



## Garry2012

AlmostYoung said:


> I doubt any more exposure is going to help. Like you suspect Garry, even if you played hours of tapes and showed dozens of pictures, it won't matter. If you do manage to convince them there is/was an affair, they will consider it your fault, because obviously you must have drove her to it.
> 
> Any more exposure/playing the A card will only make her and her parents more bitter and make things even worse for you.
> 
> And to the I told you so's, exposing earlier often doesn't work either, so don't beat yourself up over this now Garry. *You* can look into the mirror and have respect for the person you see. Can they? Your goal should be to maintain the high road _for yourself _going forward.
> 
> Years from now when everyone looks back, they will see the truth and how you handled this.


I told her that. She knows she had the affair and so do I. She is piling up the wreckage to save herself. 

I cannot even convice them that its most likely part of a midlife crisis...they dont believe me. She has sold them that she just doesnt love me anymore, and that I forced her there (for years they have doted even excessively about what a good husband i was) by ignoring her.


----------



## Garry2012

The most condemning thing she said in the VAR is "dont tell me to get you out of my head, thats not fair." After she told om that she doesnt want to go to MC. I hoped that i could have got more....but its enough to show me that he came between us...EA.


----------



## frozen

Garry2012 said:


> I fully concur. It had to have started as a hello etc, and grew from there. I tried. She has so many various phone numbers on there, i cant find anyting that stood out.


If you put it all in a spreadsheet with length of call info, removed the numbers you know already, the timing of the calls, same area code etc... Some simple sorting of the data will push the number to the top.


----------



## turnera

And then email that to her parents.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah, ive done that. She has ALOT of various numbers on there. I may get so the best suspect, but she still would never admit or concur.I would still never know.


----------



## Garry2012

turnera said:


> And then email that to her parents.


Her parents have just about come out and said that even if she did anything, its still at least half my fault.


----------



## A Bit Much

I would tell her verbatim that part of the conversation that you know about. Next text message or conversation you have with her would end with what she said to the OM.

"Well I guess you chose not to get him out of your head after all, even though he asked you too. Talk about what's not fair. It's not fair you put him in front of us and chose to end things THIS way."

Use her words against her Garry.


----------



## turnera

So? At least you'll know they 'know.' Whether they acknowledge it is their problem.


----------



## Garry2012

turnera said:


> So? At least you'll know they 'know.' Whether they acknowledge it is their problem.


Yep..and she knows i know. I just hope the guilt eats her alive.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> Her parents have just about come out and said that even if she did anything, its still at least half my fault.


Wrong. Damage to the marriage, resulting in a rut or valley, may have been half your fault. 

But she chose to have an affair, continue the affair, and give up on the marriage. 

The party willing to go to MC is not responsible for the ending of the marriage.


----------



## zillard

She is the dumper. You are the dumpee. 

Yes, you filed... because you learned to accept her decision and respect her desire to be done.


----------



## frozen

zillard said:


> Wrong. Damage to the marriage, resulting in a rut or valley, may have been half your fault.
> 
> But she chose to have an affair, continue the affair, and give up on the marriage.
> 
> The party willing to go to MC is not responsible for the ending of the marriage.


The affair is done, OM who is surely married, dumped her. The only way to shock this heat attack of a marriage is by determining and deposing OM. 

Sorry Garry, but stbxw is in post affair depression. I know you know this, but you are still rolling over. C'mon, get angry you still can find out who this guy is and provide some shock and awe to the situation.


----------



## happyman64

Why don't you just name the OM in the divorce?

You need to see an attorney. You should have already seen an attorney.

Better late than never.

Name him in the divorce.

It will shed some light on her Affair.


----------



## Garry2012

She said she doesnt have a gophone...so i am thinking she got rid of it. 

I am looking through the phone records now...so freaking many different numbers, and i have a telephone look up service...but no patterns really. I have looked at 33 differnent numbers already, nothing that really pops out. Could be they only had a couple texts, he is local and in one of her "social groups" and quickly went to the burner.


----------



## frozen

Some carriers allow download to excel


----------



## livinfree

happyman64 said:


> Why don't you just name the OM in the divorce?
> 
> You need to see an attorney. You should have already seen an attorney.
> 
> Better late than never.
> 
> Name him in the divorce.
> 
> It will shed some light on her Affair.


Not all states allow that, just an FYI. My state (Missouri) won't. Only way is if the OM is a danger to your child(ren) and that is a clause added.


----------



## AlmostYoung

Garry2012 said:


> I am looking through the phone records now...so freaking many different numbers, and i have a telephone look up service...but no patterns really. I have looked at 33 differnent numbers already, nothing that really pops out. Could be they only had a couple texts, he is local and in one of her "social groups" and quickly went to the burner.


True affair partners _always_ contact each other like crazy. Maybe you can't find anything because there was never much there. 

Though it is common fo people in MLC to have affairs, they don't always. But when they do, they're usually not very good at hiding them.


----------



## Garry2012

AlmostYoung said:


> True affair partners _always_ contact each other like crazy. Maybe you can't find anything because there was never much there.
> 
> Though it is common fo people in MLC to have affairs, they don't always. But when they do, they're usually not very good at hiding them.


Um...i have a recording of them on the phone together...it happened...and its an affair if she says "dont tell me to get you out of my head, thats not fair".

Most the activity i have seen is from the single guy, but she talked about the separation of the guy on the phone. So i doubt it was him...unless she lied about his marital status. However, they did start heating up the texting in April and I thought i saw a brief phone call in May...then all his activity goes dark...which could mean the switched to the gophone. This is the guy i overheard her friend saying "something is sooo gonna happen between you two". I just cant find that he is married, or getting a separation as she discussed.

If there wasnt much there, she would not have asked for space either.


----------



## zillard

AlmostYoung said:


> True affair partners _always_ contact each other like crazy. Maybe you can't find anything because there was never much there.


As soon as they think their spouse is suspicious they usually take it underground and go covert. Often they are only careless while they think their spouse is clueless. 

There are many ways to hide contact. Burner phones. Texting apps, which hide the contact from the provider. Facebook and instant messaging. New emails accounts, etc.



Garry2012 said:


> So i doubt it was him...unless she lied about his marital status.


You cannot be certain of anything she has told you.


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> You cannot be certain of anything she has told you.


YOu know, i think she lied about his marital status at the beginning too. AND this was the second guy she was talking to that she lied about their status.


----------



## turnera

Garry, you're divorcing. Drop it. For your sanity.


----------



## ilou

Garry2012 said:


> She turned 40, and was vocally upset by getting "old" saying "i only have 10 years of looking good left". Since then she has changed her clothing some, had a boob job and tummy tuck, got collagen in her lips and face etc. ...


Not only is she different in personality she even looks different too.
Practically some unknown person. Time to move on.

Better yet, it's time for me to move on beyond page 1 of this read.


----------



## Garry2012

One thing i learned both from my STBXW and the lawyer....pulling all the funding where she doesnt have any money, was a mistake. All it did was make the STBXW mad (which she says forced her to get a lawyer) and my lawyer said that it was not a good move, as her lawyer will use that against me.


----------



## A Bit Much

So you're worried about making her mad? She should feel at least half as bad as you do for all of this. It's her doing Garry. Sitting around tippy toe-ing around her delicate sensibilities have put you in the situation you're in if you want to know the truth.

Once you had solid evidence there was another man in the picture you should have given her the hammer. No excuses, no breaks, no more Mr Nice Guy. She cheated on that dude. She'll keep doing that guy in because he's afraid of her, even though SHE'S THE CHEATER.

It made her mad. Who gives a feck.


----------



## Garry2012

I dont care if it made her mad...not a bit. But now its costing me a few thousand bucks, when she would have potentially negotiated with me. 

As far as it being solid evidence, not so much either. According to my lawyer, it is most likely a violation to tape someone without their knowledge. she was going to look it up, but i could be charged with something, i assume a misdemeanor, for doing so. So that evidence is not usable. She did state we could put her on the stand and thinks it would be pretty easy to get a confession, but at a huge cost, and not worth the 10% sway in the assets.

Her parents have heard from me that she is having an affair. If they choose not to listen, that is their choice. I told them.


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> I dont care if it made her mad...not a bit. But now its costing me a few thousand bucks, when she would have potentially negotiated with me.
> 
> As far as it being solid evidence, not so much either. According to my lawyer, it is most likely a violation to tape someone without their knowledge. she was going to look it up, but i could be charged with something, i assume a misdemeanor, for doing so. So that evidence is not usable. She did state we could put her on the stand and thinks it would be pretty easy to get a confession, but at a huge cost, and not worth the 10% sway in the assets.
> 
> Her parents have heard from me that she is having an affair. If they choose not to listen, that is their choice. I told them.


The art of war is lost on you Garry. You never had to play the tape, you had only to repeat to HER what you heard. She could have used her own imagination on how you found out and then you would have had more leverage. And what praytell are you negotiating? A person that cheats has nothing to stand on and should be happy with what she gets... waiting around has only empowered her and helped her to solicit backup. Where did her funds come from for her attorney?

It's all spilt milk now. She's running the show. You get to sit back and take what SHE dishes out now because you failed to act on her sooner.


----------



## Garry2012

Not true ABM. Cheater or not, she has as much legal right as i do. Proving infidelity only swings the percentage 10% at best. In addition, I cant give her the bare minimum because it hurts the kids ultimately. She isnt getting anything more now really than i was going to give her. Yeah, its a war, but she has 3 hostages...my kids. EVEN if i proved infidelity, at a cost of 10k, it would be for prob 5k in judgment, and a lifetime of misery when dealing with her. 

Guilt and regret will take their toll on her.

Once i get the ok from the lawyer, i may repeat the conversation with her so she knows i know all about it.

In addition, child support is a set formula here in TX. The only way i can get that number down is to negotiate, she has the upper hand cheater or not.


----------



## Garry2012

I was getting advice her ALOT as to not letting her know i recorded a call, because some folks had some bad repercussions. Any of those folks wanna tell me why?

I dont think she would actually file charges on me, and it would appear we are divorcing regardless...so...what do i really have to lose?


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> I was getting advice her ALOT as to not letting her know i recorded a call, because some folks had some bad repercussions. Any of those folks wanna tell me why?
> 
> *I dont think she would* actually file charges on me, and it would appear we are divorcing regardless...so...what do i really have to lose?


You didn't think she'd do many things. 

Wait to hear back from your lawyer.


----------



## AlmostYoung

I like the way you think, Garry. It sounds like there is little or nothing to be gained by attempting to burn the mother of your children. Don't be goaded into staging an even more bitter D just for the hollow satisfaction of revenge. 

Doing that is no kind of "win" for a man of integrity who did nothing to deserve the situation he was thrusted into by his wife's MLC. It would only make you look like you really were the bad guy all along. 

Stand tall, sleep sound, and smile when you look at your wife and her family.


----------



## turnera

The best revenge is to walk away and no longer care about her.


----------



## AlmostYoung

turnera said:


> The best revenge is to walk away and no longer care about her.


The best revenge is a life well lived. Life is too short to waste it wallowing in hate. Forgiveness is for the person giving it.


----------



## livinfree

AlmostYoung said:


> I like the way you think, Garry. It sounds like there is little or nothing to be gained by attempting to burn the mother of your children. Don't be goaded into staging an even more bitter D just for the hollow satisfaction of revenge.
> 
> Doing that is no kind of "win" for a man of integrity who did nothing to deserve the situation he was thrusted into by his wife's MLC. It would only make you look like you really were the bad guy all along.
> 
> Stand tall, sleep sound, and smile when you look at your wife and her family.


Very true words, I've botched my integrity and look like a fool being vindictive. It is extremely difficult not to do and felt compelled to constantly defend myself.

At the end of the day, and months too late I've found my indifference.


----------



## Garry2012

AlmostYoung said:


> I like the way you think, Garry. It sounds like there is little or nothing to be gained by attempting to burn the mother of your children. Don't be goaded into staging an even more bitter D just for the hollow satisfaction of revenge.
> 
> Doing that is no kind of "win" for a man of integrity who did nothing to deserve the situation he was thrusted into by his wife's MLC. It would only make you look like you really were the bad guy all along.
> 
> Stand tall, sleep sound, and smile when you look at your wife and her family.


Yeah, and she has used the "he took away all my money" as a tool to show her family how evil i am. I just want her to really know that i know about the OM. Problem is, she is more delusional now than ever. It will take time...and like you all say, hopefully by then, i really wont care.


----------



## Garry2012

livinfree said:


> Very true words, I've botched my integrity and look like a fool being vindictive. It is extremely difficult not to do and felt compelled to constantly defend myself.
> 
> At the end of the day, and months too late I've found my indifference.


yes! i have such an urge to defend myself and "prove" im right about the OM. But since noone is listening, it makes me just look bad. My friends and family understand....so that is what i have to hang my hat on.


----------



## A Bit Much

What worked for me doesn't necessarily work for everyone. Totally get that.

I shared what I knew about my ex's infidelities directly to him and I did it for myself. I felt better after I let him know that I knew what he had been doing.

Then I packed our stuff (me and the kids) and left him. Over the years his pockets were hit pretty hard and I attribute that to reaping what he had sown. My life has been just fine and I'm living VERY well in spite of how things ended with us. 

I have no regrets for confronting him, and I think it was worth it. For me it was worth it. Garry you have to do what you think is worth it and I have no problems respecting that. 

Peace be with you.


----------



## Garry2012

A Bit Much said:


> What worked for me doesn't necessarily work for everyone. Totally get that.
> 
> I shared what I knew about my ex's infidelities directly to him and I did it for myself. I felt better after I let him know that I knew what he had been doing.
> 
> Then I packed our stuff (me and the kids) and left him. Over the years his pockets were hit pretty hard and I attribute that to reaping what he had sown. My life has been just fine and I'm living VERY well in spite of how things ended with us.
> 
> I have no regrets for confronting him, and I think it was worth it. For me it was worth it. Garry you have to do what you think is worth it and I have no problems respecting that.
> 
> Peace be with you.


No i know. I have already confronted her, and will with the evidence. She is in such a state of denial now, i dont even think SHE will believe the evidence. But, truthfully, i am just bashing my head against the wall trying to get her family to believe me...and for what? Nothing.


----------



## turnera

Who cares? In a couple years, you'll never even see them again. They are people who are no longer in your life. Who cares what they think?


----------



## turnera

Still doesn't matter what they think of him. HE won't be interacting with them.


----------



## AlmostYoung

turnera said:


> Still doesn't matter what they think of him. HE won't be interacting with them.



But it matters greatly what he thinks of himself, and what his kids think of him. This is what I would base my actions on if I were in Garry's place.

I understand the temptation to "get even" when someone causes you pain, but that kind of revenge just doesn't seem to offer much solace in the end.


----------



## turnera

We're saying the same thing. Stop worrying about what others think of you.


----------



## Garry2012

I am just wasting my time talking to her now. When she comes out of the fog, if, then I will have a long heart to heart with her so she knows what she did etc. Then walk away.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> I am just wasting my time talking to her now. When she comes out of the fog, if, then I will have a long heart to heart with her so she knows what she did etc. Then walk away.


She'll realize. And if she doesn't, you saying anything won't make her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> She'll realize. And if she doesn't, you saying anything won't make her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


At this point, that is all i want. Go, just go...but i hope she realizes, someday, what she lost. She sure used to know what she had. Thank you all for the support.


----------



## livinfree

Garry2012 said:


> but i hope she realizes, someday, what she lost. She sure used to know what she had.


Do not count on that. Seriously. Do not waste your time wishing that will happen.

You need to realize what you have gained, sir. 

Freedom and opportunity with a woman who WILL value and respect you.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> At this point, that is all i want. Go, just go...but i hope she realizes, someday, what she lost. She sure used to know what she had. Thank you all for the support.


I think she will. Could take years though.

Example. I just got contacted this morning by an ex of mine from over a decade ago (before my current WAW/DS). 

We had lived together for some time and I was preparing to propose and we were getting ready to relocate together with her 2yo son. Out of the blue she stopped coming home and night and then walked away. 

Well she must have heard I was single again as she never tried to contact me while I was married. But she did this morning; even though it appears she is currently in a relationship. 

Definitely not going back to that. But yes... in time it seems they often do realize what they lost.


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> I think she will. Could take years though.
> 
> Example. I just got contacted this morning by an ex of mine from over a decade ago (before my current WAW/DS).
> 
> We had lived together for some time and I was preparing to propose and we were getting ready to relocate together with her 2yo son. Out of the blue she stopped coming home and night and then walked away.
> 
> Well she must have heard I was single again as she never tried to contact me while I was married. But she did this morning; even though it appears she is currently in a relationship.
> 
> Definitely not going back to that. But yes... in time it seems they often do realize what they lost.



I recently had a very similiar experience. An ex from just before my marriage contacted me recently. I was shocked at how appreciative she was at our relationship...told me how i changed her life etc. She wanted to get back together several times while i was married..but of course couldnt. She was miserable at what she lost for like 13 years. Finally found someone who "loved her like i did" a couple years ago...thank goodness. I would not have gone back to her either.


----------



## AlmostYoung

Garry2012 said:


> At this point, that is all i want. Go, just go...but i hope she realizes, someday, what she lost. She sure used to know what she had. Thank you all for the support.


The marriage had to have been fairly decent or she (and you) never would have hung around for 13 years. Her MLC has put her in a deep fog. If you've done your homework, you know it typically takes them 3-5 years to work through their issues. (which almost always stem from childhood) Until then they will remain in the tunnel. Most make it out a better person, a few never make it out.

When/if she does, she almost certainly will miss what she threw away, especially if you remain on the high road and refuse to chop her up for all this.

Personally, I feel compassion for our wifes because I know what they are going through has to be very hard for them.


----------



## Garry2012

AlmostYoung said:


> The marriage had to have been fairly decent or she (and you) never would have hung around for 13 years. Her MLC has put her in a deep fog. If you've done your homework, you know it typically takes them 3-5 years to work through their issues. (which almost always stem from childhood) Until then they will remain in the tunnel. Most make it out a better person, a few never make it out.
> 
> When/if she does, she almost certainly will miss what she threw away, especially if you remain on the high road and refuse to chop her up for all this.
> 
> Personally, I feel compassion for our wifes because I know what they are going through has to be very hard for them.


Yes, she has been slowly going into it..and hit the full fog this summer. So, she has a few years left potentially. I do view her as having an illness of sorts, it helps me think that way anyway. We did have a pretty good relationship. Not great, we had areas to improve on, but certainly better than most. I am learning to have more and more compassion for her...it will take a while.


----------



## ocotillo

Garry2012 said:


> As far as it being solid evidence, not so much either. According to my lawyer, it is most likely a violation to tape someone without their knowledge.


It can be a felony in Texas. It would be good if her lawyer doesn't find out.


----------



## dallasapple

I think it Texas(where Im from) one party consent of two is legal.Liek I can secrately tape my husband (audio) if we have a conversation (the two of us) and only I'm privy to it.But you taping her and someone else is probably not good.


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## turnera

In Texas you can tape any conversation YOU are part of without telling anyone. But if it's someone else's, you have to inform them first.


----------



## Garry2012

right...thats what my lawyer said. So i have to hold off telling her how i know what i know (even though i have told her things that were part of her convo without ever telling her i taped her)--and she still denies it all.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> right...thats what my lawyer said. So i have to hold off telling her how i know what i know (even though i have told her things that were part of her convo without ever telling her i taped her)--and she still denies it all.


Do you need for her to admit it in order to feel better about the divorce?


----------



## Garry2012

No. I guess its some sort of validation.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> No. I guess its some sort of validation.


I get that. And still have that hangup to work through too.

Better than anger, attraction and sorrow though... yeah?


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah, its doable.


----------



## Shaggy

Gary,

What her parents think doesn't matter.

Your wife had it in for you no matter what she never was going to play nice, she has all along been cold and ready to take you for everything, because it's all your fault in her head.

The only thing that is going to make any impact is you going after and exposing the OM. Get him afraid of exposure, stop making it safe fir him to support her.

Hire a PI if you need to, but find him,


----------



## Garry2012

past that. We will be divorced in a month. I am just moving on, and if she wants to ever confess, fine.


----------



## turnera

Correction: You will be FREE in a month.


----------



## Garry2012

turnera said:


> Correction: You will be FREE in a month.


Well said. As this drags on, that gets to be a truer and truer statement every day.


----------



## Garry2012

Update:
So i had an hour or so convo with STBXW. She gave me the ILYBNILWY speech, and we talked about how we will handle some stuff going forward etc. 

Funny, in that conversation, she said "who knows maybe in 3 months i will regret all this, i know YOU think its too late then but"..and then "you know what they say about love, let it go and if it comes back to you, it was true love". 

I think she REALLY thinks this is just a marriage vacation....


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> i know YOU think its too late then but"..and then "you know what they say about love, let it go and if it comes back to you, it was true love".
> 
> I think she REALLY thinks this is just a marriage vacation....


I assume she meant her letting you go and seeing if you come running back, yes? Because if you don't chase her then you didn't truly love her, yeah.


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> I assume she meant her letting you go and seeing if you come running back, yes? Because if you don't chase her then you didn't truly love her, yeah.


No, I think she meant HER coming back to me. She knows I dont want this, it was after her ILYBMILWY speech


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> No, I think she meant HER coming back to me. She knows I dont want this, it was after her ILYBMILWY speech


Ah. Just throwing out those "maybe" hooks and hoping they stick to you.


----------



## Garry2012

Is this her idea of trying to keep me as plan B? Or maybe the realization of her new life is starting to take hold..and its already not quite as green as she thought? Thats how i took it.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> Is this her idea of trying to keep me as plan B? Or maybe the realization of her new life is starting to take hold..and its already not quite as green as she thought? Thats how i took it.


Probably both. Reality sucks and is very confusing when you've been spending all your time in lala land.


----------



## zillard

Its telling that you are getting ILYBNILWY now. She acknowledged that she sees you moving on. 

Don't let it slip you up. Keep moving. And don't expect this type of talk from her to stop as you head closer to D.


----------



## Garry2012

Think she acknowledges? I take it as affirmation that SHE is moving on. I would like to think she sees me moving on. I dont talk to her etc. The 180 is second nature now.

Wont slip me up. She would have to make HUGE concessions to stop this from completing...and frankly, she has put so much effort into convincing herself and her family that she wants out, I think she has to go through with it now...her ego wont let her stop. She has a way to go before she hits rock bottom.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> Think she acknowledges? I take it as affirmation that SHE is moving on. I would like to think she sees me moving on. I dont talk to her etc. The 180 is second nature now.
> 
> Wont slip me up. She would have to make HUGE concessions to stop this from completing...and frankly, she has put so much effort into convincing herself and her family that she wants out, I think she has to go through with it now...her ego wont let her stop. She has a way to go before she hits rock bottom.


"i know YOU think its too late then"

She probably would not "know" this if she saw you as a weak clingy husband holding onto hope. 

"who knows maybe in 3 months"

She is still conflicted.


----------



## Garry2012

glad you see it that way. I have been moving forward, and I hope she sees that...so thats good!

She is conflicted/confused etc. so true.


----------



## Garry2012

Chuck71 said:


> Garry-LTNS........you left out denial. Her special victim chair. Our D is final 2/1........She is in a spiral and I kind of enjoy watching it....sad to say I guess. Hang in there.....is she still going to be leaving the house once it's final? I'm sure you answered it before and I may have overlooked it.


Tell me about the spiral...im looking forward to it. Yes, she has agreed to give me the house (for now) and has been looking for a rental house. 

I just talked to her about IC for the kids she "if they need it". I told her it is pretty standard, since their world is being turned upside down. Looks like i will be doing that too.

and yes DENIAL..she has mastered this to get her through. Denied i loved her, denied she loved me, and FULLY denied her EA.


----------



## zillard

Gotta love the denial. 

Mine: "Do you tell people that you pushed me so far away that I finally gave up?"

After she said: "I pushed you away to keep you safe."

Conflicting statements of a victim/martyr.


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> Gotta love the denial.
> 
> Mine: "Do you tell people that you pushed me so far away that I finally gave up?"
> 
> After she said: "I pushed you away to keep you safe."
> 
> Conflicting statements of a victim/martyr.


I am starting to think that STBXW now believes herself that there isnt an OM...thats how far into denial she is lol.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> I am starting to think that STBXW now believes herself that there isnt an OM...thats how far into denial she is lol.


Mine went back and forth on that for quite some time. 

Yes I had an affair. 
No he's just a friend. 
I cheated, it was an EA. 
No kissing is just inappropriate. 
Ok it was an EA with touching. 
Don't tell people I'm a cheater, I never slept with anyone but you.


----------



## Chuck71

Well if she doesn't want to be called a cheater.....how about not cheating. What next....Henry Lee Lucas killing people but not wanting to be identified as a killer?


----------



## Garry2012

I like that as time passes by, it gets more humorous. thats why i am interested in the spiral. Especially a spiral AFTER i found someone who i connect with...


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> Well if she doesn't want to be called a cheater.....how about not cheating. What next....Henry Lee Lucas killing people but not wanting to be identified as a killer?


See I have no problem telling people I was an imperfect, complacent, often apathetic husband. Because I hold myself accountable.


----------



## Garry2012

It does take two, and i recognize i failed somewhere. But i did tell her i loved her 3 times a day, held her hand often, hugged her daily, kissed good morning and good night. I tried to talk to her, but she is very communication challenged...or WE are as a couple. I dunno. Thats why i think she is wanting more of a lifestyle change...and leaving me gives her a babysitter.


----------



## aston

Garry2012 said:


> It does take two, and i recognize i failed somewhere. But i did tell her i loved her 3 times a day, held her hand often, hugged her daily, kissed good morning and good night. I tried to talk to her, but she is very communication challenged...or WE are as a couple. I dunno. Thats why i think she is wanting more of a lifestyle change...and leaving me gives her a babysitter.


You have toremember with most women it's always gonna be something. The minute you cross one threshold and they get used to it, then they want something else.
I love you 3 times a day sounds good at first but after 6 months or a year it doesn't "hold" the same meaning. So does holding hands and some of the things you mentioned.
Was she reciprocating? It has to be a two way street.
Jsut calling a spade a spade here lol


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah she was. She was bored with her life...HATED the role of housewife...HATED making dinner everyday, and HATED dealing with the kids from 3-6. 

We didnt go out much, that is one area I should have done better. She didnt ever offer and i refused..so she didnt help. But I should have made a date night every week.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> It does take two, and i recognize i failed somewhere. But i did tell her i loved her 3 times a day, held her hand often, hugged her daily, kissed good morning and good night.


Yeah, I did all those things too. They just weren't the things that she wanted in order to feel special and I didn't see that. Different love language I guess. I was a poor listener when she needed it. 

This is all good though because now I know what to do better next time.


----------



## aston

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah she was. She was bored with her life...HATED the role of housewife...HATED making dinner everyday, and HATED dealing with the kids from 3-6.
> 
> We didnt go out much, that is one area I should have done better. She didnt ever offer and i refused..so she didnt help. But I should have made a date night every week.


I remember my EW would complain about everything under the sun...and moon....and cloud. Pessimist to the bone and it was not pleasant. I did many things that just wasn't enough and the writing was on the wall. It's always gonna be something...


----------



## aston

zillard said:


> Yeah, I did all those things too. They just weren't the things that she wanted in order to feel special and I didn't see that. Different love language I guess. I was a poor listener when she needed it.
> 
> This is all good though because now I know what to do better next time.


Amen...I think it's all a learning experience.....if I knew then what I know now I'd probably be with someone else altogether lol


----------



## Garry2012

aston said:


> I remember my EW would complain about everything under the sun...and moon....and cloud. Pessimist to the bone and it was not pleasant. I did many things that just wasn't enough and the writing was on the wall. It's always gonna be something...


Yep...thats how it has been. She wasnt happy, but I couldnt make her happy...SHE had to make herself happy. Problem is, she will run into this again with new guy. She used to get on her mom for "letting others control your happiness"..but now i see the apple fell pretty close to the tree.


----------



## aston

Garry2012 said:


> Yep...thats how it has been. She wasnt happy, but I couldnt make her happy...SHE had to make herself happy. Problem is, she will run into this again with new guy. She used to get on her mom for "letting others control your happiness"..but now i see the apple fell pretty close to the tree.


The apple never falls far from the tree. Happiness starts from within, alot of times people expect others to make them happy and thats a dead on arrival approach. It simply never works.
If a person has a parent they complain about, chances are they share the same characteristics UNLESS they put in the effort th ensure they don't turn out (or share those characteristics as that parent) it's a DOA proposition.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah...i agree. She also fell into the spiral of negativity and hatred of her life that i couldnt pull her from. She wouldnt get a job to get out, and i couldnt do it for her.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah...i agree. She also fell into the spiral of negativity and hatred of her life that i couldnt pull her from. She wouldnt get a job to get out, and i couldnt do it for her.


Haha. It may not have helped anyway. Mine was an unhappy SAHM too. I pressured her to get a job to get out and do something. Just didn't think it would be a male coworker.


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> Haha. It may not have helped anyway. Mine was an unhappy SAHM too. I pressured her to get a job to get out and do something. Just didn't think it would be a male coworker.


haha too funny


----------



## happyman64

And that is why you have to Divorce them.

Give them what they want. A new life. On their own.

And when you have the kids and she is on her won for a while it all sets in that they are truly "alone".

Then the spiral begins. Not always but it does happen.

The key is to be moving forward with your kids and your own life not to give a [email protected]

Let them learn from their mistakes.


----------



## Garry2012

happyman64 said:


> And that is why you have to Divorce them.
> 
> Give them what they want. A new life. On their own.
> 
> And when you have the kids and she is on her won for a while it all sets in that they are truly "alone".
> 
> Then the spiral begins. Not always but it does happen.
> 
> The key is to be moving forward with your kids and your own life not to give a [email protected]
> 
> Let them learn from their mistakes.


Yep..and i am pretty confident she will spiral...this year even. She hasnt been alone in 15 years. The OM wont live up to expectations, and staying out all night with her "friends" will wear off. But like you said, that will be her problem...


----------



## turnera

I have become a believer that SAHMs are a danger sign walking. In today's age, SAHMs are just ripe for affairs. Fifty years ago, no. today? With the me generation (what can I get for ME?), cars, credit cards, shopping malls, internet, and ALL DAY FREE on their hands...too tempting to cheat.


----------



## Garry2012

Idle hands are the devils playground. 

Yet, they don't want to get out and work b ause it's too miserable... My x is now getting reacquainted with how great work is... And she won't have to worry about how "hard" it is to be a SAHM.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Garry2012

Yep...she actually told me many times that I "get to go to work" and that she "had to stay home". My retort was always, please switch with me...but she didnt get it. She HATED working...but somewhere in the SAHM path, she revised her work history as fun and exciting. Well, now she is working again..so she can have all the fun too!!


----------



## dallasapple

turnera said:


> I have become a believer that SAHMs are a danger sign walking. In today's age, SAHMs are just ripe for affairs. Fifty years ago, no. today? With the me generation (what can I get for ME?), cars, credit cards, shopping malls, internet, and ALL DAY FREE on their hands...too tempting to cheat.


Actually the sharp rise in women committing adultery today verses 40/50 years ago is directly attributed to more women entering the work force.At least last I checked .Not to say SAHM's never cheat but they aren't the majority.


----------



## Garry2012

50 years ago, you really had to hide and work for the affair (i assume). Now with chat apps, FB, texting, facetime etc...its very easy to contact and develop relationships for all...temptation is around every corner if someone wants to look.


----------



## Garry2012

Zanne said:


> I have my own theories. Women back then were more connected to a support network of other women, including older and wiser women at church who would serve as mentors. There was more accountability. No shame in being "just a SAHM." I'm sure affairs still happened. But we've really become a jaded society in recent years. Anything goes.


Yeah...lots of factors. Now its very much a do for yourself culture too...the "why should i sacrifice when all the others are having fun" attitude permeates the US.


----------



## dallasapple

Garry2012 said:


> 50 years ago, you really had to hide and work for the affair (i assume). Now with chat apps, FB, texting, facetime etc...its very easy to contact and develop relationships for all...temptation is around every corner if someone wants to look.


If you are "out' to have an affair sure ..but its not any easier for a SAHM than a woman in the workplace if you start out trying to "find someone" deliberately.

But the kind of affairs as they say "just happen"...or "before I knew it" are mostly from meeting someone at work even a client or customer .The kind where you meet someone and have that "instant attraction "..or you start off as just co-workers chatting it up (*****ing about your spouses) having lunch going to happy hour etc..far more temptations out there for working women than a SAHM..far more "opportunity"..You are far less likely to "bump into " someone on the internet that you both feel a non face to face attachment to ..that is also conveniently available to meet with you .And I'm talking about litteral bumping and grinding not phone sex or swapping photos.


----------



## dallasapple

Zanne said:


> I have my own theories. Women back then were more connected to a support network of other women, including older and wiser women at church who would serve as mentors. There was more accountability. No shame in being "just a SAHM." I'm sure affairs still happened. But we've really become a jaded society in recent years. Anything goes.


I would agree with this.Not that most adultery is SAHM's..but more SAHM's today may seek out an affair..Looking for some validation or some admiration they are missing by being viewed as 2nd class cicitzens because they are "just a SAHM". freeloading lucky ducks sucking off a mans "paycheck".


----------



## dallasapple

Funny story kind of ..I used to when I woudl fill out forms.Like for the kids school or a doctor visit ..when It asked for my occupation back then they didn't have the term SAHM..it was "homemaker "or 'housewife" ..I thought it would be cute to call myself domestic goddess(kind of smart assy but that was when I still had a self esteem about it) gradually I changed that to "freeloader" and or "domestic prostitute".I would also say that when someone asked "so what do you do"..I would say practically nothing..I sit around all day barely lifting a finger half ass doing what I do ,do and the rest of the time I just relax. oh I do spend my husbands money that he works hard for on silly frivelous things for myself thats quite time consuming and exhausting..I got some strange reactions..I liked to see the look on peoples faces.


----------



## dallasapple

Zanne said:


> Hahaha... I'm changing my FB status to "domestic prostitute." lol


Its a good one huh???


----------



## dallasapple

Or you could change that to "stay at home prostitute" 

"kept woman" is another fun one..


----------



## Garry2012

I know in my case, i dont have time to talk to her for an hour or so while at work. She found someone who could...she was bored and wanted a friend...


----------



## dallasapple

There are a LOT more SAHD's too.According to some as to SAHM's being "ripe for affairs" I would imagine the rate of men having affairs shall rise as they exit the work force and take on the role of SAHD.


----------



## dallasapple

Garry2012 said:


> I know in my case, i dont have time to talk to her for an hour or so while at work. She found someone who could...she was bored and wanted a friend...


I never got "bored" sure monotony ...and I felt utterly and completely devalued and disproved of because "I got to stay at home he had to work" ..but I threw myself into being a creative cook (all be it not appreciated) home project ..taking the kids out and about ...I hung out with my sister who was also SAHM 1 of my sons is very close in age to her daughter and they played..I visited my mother ..(they have pools so when weather was nice they could swim) and my sister and I every once and a while went out dancing to get some of the "wild oats' out ..what would drive me to an affair was my husbands complete and utter lack of appreciation for what I did..and constant critisism and I beleive jeolousy and resentment he "had to work".It was only til later and even more recently after our first grandchild and he has very minimal working hours him being here with me keeping my grandson that he "got it"..And how ridiculous and wrong it was to be "competing" over who had it "worse"..There are pros and cons to both ..and there is value in both.Its just that going to "work" is something you can be proud of and is "honorable" less and less is it to be a full time SAHM which is surely one of the cons.There is no "stigma" attached to going out in the workforce and earning a paycheck..at least not for a man..working (out side the home mothers) get ridiculed too.


----------



## zillard

dallasapple said:


> Actually the sharp rise in women committing adultery today verses 40/50 years ago is directly attributed to more women entering the work force.At least last I checked .Not to say SAHM's never cheat but they aren't the majority.


Yes, the book "Not Just Friends" shows how the EA is sharply rising due to women in the workforce. Previously the PA was more common among working men, but women often connect emotionally first rather than the typical ONS men typically have.

The problem I see with SAHMs is when they re-enter the workforce. For so long they have identified themselves as "mother" or "wife" and once out of the house again often feel a need to find their own identity again. 

At least in my case, this started with her going out after work with female coworkers. Most of these were younger and single - lives with much less responsibility that the former SAHM envies. Before long, male coworkers are thrown into the mix and Bam. No longer happy with life, yearning for freedom, flattered by new attention, EA, PA, divorce.


----------



## dallasapple

Garry2012 said:


> I know in my case, i dont have time to talk to her for an hour or so while at work. She found someone who could...she was bored and wanted a friend...


But I will say that is ridiculous..I did want my husband to stay up later with me on work nights than he wanted to or could.But I never bothered him at work unless I had too. He was the one calling me during the day to check in ..see what I was up to and talk about "whats for dinner" kind of thing.and tell me he loved me..

Your wife sounds needy and clingy he way you describe her..


----------



## zillard

dallasapple said:


> But I will say that is ridiculous..I did want my husband to stay up later with me on work nights than he wanted to or could.But I never bothered him at work unless I had too.


I did this. Didn't help. 

I would put kiddo to bed, take a nap, and be awake to spend time with X when she arrived home from her swing shift shortly after midnight. While I thought it was a grand gesture, it still was not enough for her. 

She'd complain when I went to bed around 2-3am as I had to wake for work at 6:30. "fine, go to bed then".


----------



## dallasapple

zillard said:


> Yes, the book "Not Just Friends" shows how the EA is sharply rising due to women in the workforce. Previously the PA was more common among working men, but women often connect emotionally first rather than the typical ONS men typically have.
> 
> The problem I see with SAHMs is when they re-enter the workforce. For so long they have identified themselves as "mother" or "wife" and once out of the house again often feel a need to find their own identity again.
> 
> At least in my case, this started with her going out after work with female coworkers. Most of these were younger and single - lives with much less responsibility that the former SAHM envies. Before long, male coworkers are thrown into the mix and Bam. No longer happy with life, yearning for freedom, flattered by new attention, EA, PA, divorce.


Yes..If I went out and worked now I would be at much higher risk for an affair than if I just stay put..by that I mean after staying home for so long I wouldn't know how to handle any man that was very kind and nice or flattering to me face to face.At least not someone I had to see everyday.Especially if he was actually interested in me..

I guess I would probably run home and tell my husband.Um ..but I wouldn't "envy" the younger freeer girls.I probably wouldn't know how to handle the men very well.I could see having to be careful not letting my mind wander.Thats kind of sad and pathetic and hard to admit and I don't atually know..I just know LOL!! there is one man at a greek deli I frequent that overtly flirts with me ..even got me to give him my phone #...I kept second guessing if he was just being nice or actually ya know wanting something more..he would make special reicpes just for me and call me to say it was ready(his idea his creations foods I have never tasted) I told my husband I felt intimidated by him .He started going in for our humus and grape leaves LOL!!Oh and I found this man attractive and interesting.and thats just a deli man ...LOL!!


----------



## zillard

Zanne said:


> Selfish!


Yep, and before long me being in bed = her texting and FB with dude from work w/same schedule. 

Nevermind that we had always been a 2-3 times/week couple, initiated by both for 10 years. So I know that wasn't the issue.


----------



## dallasapple

> For so long they have identified themselves as "mother" or "wife" and once out of the house again often feel a need to find their own identity again.


But mother and wife IS a huge part of my identity.And within those "roles " is a unique me..Me who I am is entwined with HOW I mother and what kind of wife I am.All going to work would do is add a new "role" that I functioned as but it will still be "me" functioning in that role.And of course another source to get a "reflection" off of as to how I'm accepted or not accepted to be validated or not to adjust and tweak and learn.Whatever my occupation was would be a "title".But it would still be "what kind of /fill in the label/worker" am I ..Just like 'mother /wfie/sister/daughter/friend/ PERSON..Does that make sense?I do not exist in a bubble ..

Who you are will be demonstrated in all the various roles.The roles you take on aren't "your identity" they are labels but how you perform in them ..is representative of "who you are"..

Did I just lose my identity in this post???


:scratchhead:


----------



## dallasapple

Another man flirted with me in the vitamin /herb mart I frequent.(a customer not an employee) I mean caught me in the aisle and asked if I "knew about " this and that..next thing I know he was saying he takes this one for "stamina and the kind men need "wink wink" ..and how he was "retired" and all he had left to do in life was "travel" to this exotic location and that ..just got back from Cabo next is a month in hawaii... etc..then "I'm sure your husband "fill in the blank" you are "married of course right????" ..DUH wedding band is OBVIOUS...(I didn't say that ) then gosh you are so fascinating to talk to ..if only???I would love to be able to talk to you for hours...I sputtered...that would be nice but...????I don't think that would be possible ya know because..??He said I understand...then looked me up and down and shook his head and was like "if only "...

I was shaking in my boots.(litterally) I told the guys that know me..by that I mean I'm in there all the time..that man just basically tried to pick me up..in a VITAMIN store telling me how "virile" and independently wealthy he is and on and on ..they said "next time just walk away and come tell us and we tell him/anyone who is bothering you to leave you alone we heard him and weren't sure what was going on. If you feel harrassed let us know we got your back"!

Even though at the same time ..I was "flattered" in the sense..I still "have it " LOL!!!!A nice affirmation but I freeze like a deer in the lights...I get confused have a hard time "rejecting " or even being sure I didn't get the "wrong idea" even when its kind of obvious..


----------



## zillard

dallasapple said:


> But mother and wife IS a huge part of my identity.And within those "roles " is a unique me..Me who I am is entwined with HOW I mother and what kind of wife I am.All going to work would do is add a new "role" that I functioned as but it will still be "me" functioning in that role.And of course another source to get a "reflection" off of as to how I'm accepted or not accepted to be validated or not to adjust and tweak and learn.Whatever my occupation was would be a "title".But it would still be "what kind of /fill in the label/worker" am I ..Just like 'mother /wfie/sister/daughter/friend/ PERSON..Does that make sense?I do not exist in a bubble ..
> 
> Who you are will be demonstrated in all the various roles.The roles you take on aren't "your identity" they are labels but how you perform in them ..is representative of "who you are"..
> 
> Did I just lose my identity in this post???
> 
> 
> :scratchhead:


I dunno. I identify myself by my values, interests, strengths and weaknesses.

See, HOW you mother is based on your values. Yes, we do often look for an external perspective to gauge our strengths and weaknesses. But who we are should not largely depend on outside validation. 

I am a good mother. I have # kids. Yes
I am Mom of #. Trouble.

I am A, married to B. Yes
I am B's wife. Trouble.


----------



## dallasapple

> I dunno. I identify myself by my values, interests, strengths and weaknesses.


But those are "applied" utilized in a sense in our various roles..So its our "identity " put to use..


----------



## dallasapple

> But who we are should not largely depend on outside validation.


I agree to an extent..but reinforcement sure does help.Or being "disproved of" to an extent can be used as a "gauge" to self reflection and need for growth or change.

I mean again to an "extent"..we cant live and breath on others validating us..NO WAY..you will die or "lose your self"..


----------



## dallasapple

DEEEP!!! sorry Gary... 

I mean I think we "derailed" ..Interesting conversation though I have enjoyed it..


----------



## Garry2012

I do get validation and input from others...it helps me keep grounded. My view of me may be, and often is, different from others...and we tend to skew our view of ourselves. If my wife told me I needed to do XYZ, I would have loved to have talked to her, got specifics and worked on it. I never got the opportunity.

Just like I do with my kids, I am not their friend, but i like to hear their input as to my rules, and how i handle things to get their perception. I do change if I think they have a point.

If i can keep my kids thinking im the best dad ever, and yet we follow good parenting rules...i think im doing ok.


----------



## zillard

dallasapple said:


> I agree to an extent..but reinforcement sure does help.Or being "disproved of" to an extent can be used as a "gauge" to self reflection and need for growth or change.
> 
> I mean again to an "extent"..we cant live and breath on others validating us..NO WAY..you will die or "lose your self"..


Reinforcement and validation makes us feel better about ourselves when we are unsure of our own value. 

Say someone compliments your hair. It can really brighten your day. Usually though because you take it as a compliment or approval of you as an attractive individual. But if you are already confident that you are attractive and your hair looks good, your first thought instead would be "that person is nice".


----------



## dallasapple

zillard said:


> Reinforcement and validation makes us feel better about ourselves when we are unsure of our own value.
> 
> Say someone compliments your hair. It can really brighten your day. Usually though because you take it as a compliment or approval of you as an attractive individual. But if you are already confident that you are attractive and your hair looks good, your first thought instead would be "that person is nice".


I understand..Its the difference in insecurity needing to be reversed and a secure person just being validated.I still believe LOL!! Even if you are secure ..a little validation is a "reinforcement"..even if its not the meat..If no one ever says a DAMN word LOL>>>that your hair looks nice for 20 years even though you think it does.....after a while you wonder what do other people think?


----------



## Garry2012

Right...need grounding. But in my STBXW case, guys hitting on her on FB etc was that "feel good" feeling...especially for 41 yo woman who is VERY insecure about her looks..despite me telling her how good she looks. She ate it up...and it fed the moster. Soon i just wasnt interested because I didnt offer the compliments like they did. I get that...i have recently put myself out on dating sites etc, and i get far more positive and aggressive attention than she has given me in a long time...but i know the compliments are just the fleeting part of a new relationship...they dont last.


----------



## dallasapple

Garry2012 said:


> I do get validation and input from others...it helps me keep grounded. My view of me may be, and often is, different from others...and we tend to skew our view of ourselves. If my wife told me I needed to do XYZ, I would have loved to have talked to her, got specifics and worked on it. I never got the opportunity.
> 
> Just like I do with my kids, I am not their friend, but i like to hear their input as to my rules, and how i handle things to get their perception. I do change if I think they have a point.
> 
> If i can keep my kids thinking im the best dad ever, and yet we follow good parenting rules...i think im doing ok.


Right "keep grounded"...Not "that's my ground"..

And with your kids? SMART move ..because their perception of you is how THEY frame you in their minds so better to get input..

I mean otherwise all we have to do is run around just saying IM GREAT ..Im superb in MY opinion ..and your boss is firing you ...your spouse is divorcing you ..your kids cant stand you and avoid you ..and you have no friends..Sorry time to start paying attention to others perceptions of you besides your own high view of your self..


----------



## dallasapple

Chuck71 said:


> Validation lies from within, self esteem. Any one who measures their worth from acceptance of others (over their own) are insecure and without love of thy self.


So you just tell your self you are great no matter if most you are around disagree..good luck with that..


----------



## zillard

dallasapple said:


> So you just tell your self you are great no matter if most you are around disagree..good luck with that..


I can look at a jerk and know that I'm not a jerk. I don't need someone else to tell me I'm not a jerk.


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## dallasapple

zillard said:


> I can look at a jerk and know that I'm not a jerk. I don't need someone else to tell me I'm not a jerk.


But if you are so self assured how do you know that they aren't the jerk and you are ?If your only feedback is your own mind telling you ?That sounds a bit narcasisstic actually..Your entire world and the mirror for your self cant be your own face and mind..I think I have a picture for you ..


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## Garry2012

I was told i was an over jealous H for two years, it took this site to validate i wasnt...so i believed her and doubted myself. I needed external validation.


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## dallasapple

Image Search Results for caravaggio narcissus


----------



## dallasapple

Garry2012 said:


> I was told i was an over jealous H for two years, it took this site to validate i wasnt...so i believed her and doubted myself. I needed external validation.


----------



## dallasapple

Garry2012 said:


> I was told i was an over jealous H for two years, it took this site to validate i wasnt...so i believed her and doubted myself. I needed external validation.


You also needed to hear a different opinion BESIDES hers.Not stare in the mirror and self assure..she damaged your self esteem..and that can happen..especially in marriage..and not everyone can just sit in front of their own face and talk to themselves to repair that..


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## Dad&Hubby

Enjoying validation doesn't mean you're not self assured or self confident. In fact the definition of validate is to check or prove the validity or accuracy of something.

I feel I have a very confident view of myself. I know what my strengths are, how valuable I am as a man, father, lover, protector and husband. But I still enjoy it when my wife throws out some nice compliments


----------



## zillard

dallasapple said:


> But if you are so self assured how do you know that they aren't the jerk and you are ?If your only feedback is your own mind telling you ?That sounds a bit narcasisstic actually..Your entire world and the mirror for your self cant be your own face and mind..I think I have a picture for you ..


You're welcome to that opinion. I still remain convinced that I am not a narcissist but can understand your perspective. 

Narcissists respond to criticism poorly and often require frequent praise. When they do not receive it, they act aggressively because how dare you not acknowledge that they are awesome.

Just because I don't need someone to tell me I'm not a jerk, doesn't mean I wouldn't listen if someone did. But I also wouldn't go, "wow, I'm a jerk" because they did. I would think, hmm. Maybe I wasn't being true to myself and acted poorly. I should check myself so that I do not again.


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## Garry2012

So, STBXW calls me/texts me this am "the car is not working right"...i repond ....how so?...tells me the car is shaking etc. 

So, I tell her...well its your car....sell it or take it too the dealership....her reply "I have to work" (i guess i dont). I let her know "the dealership is open until 7pm".

is this cake eating? i am the handy man...but not good enough to be anything more? Yes, i laughed to myself during this discussion.


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## zillard

This is: 

I have a problem. 
I don't want to deal with it. 
I expect you to do it for me. 
But I'm too proud to ask for your help.
If you don't jump to help me on your own, you don't care.
Because you always did it before. 
This new life I chose is hard. 
Hold my hand while I spit on you.


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## Bobby5000

I would simply listen and say you need to address the issue. Nothing more or less. You are under no obligation to help her, or listen to her ventilate and it makes you feel bad doing so.


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## Garry2012

zillard said:


> This is:
> 
> I have a problem.
> I don't want to deal with it.
> I expect you to do it for me.
> But I'm too proud to ask for your help.
> If you don't jump to help me on your own, you don't care.
> Because you always did it before.
> This new life I chose is hard.
> Hold my hand while I spit on you.


Good Stuff....lol


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## aston

Garry2012 said:


> Good Stuff....lol


Very much so. This reminds me of my ex. Has a boyfriend yet wants me to help load some wood near the fireplace.

My response......you don't even wanna know LOL


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## Garry2012

I used to be the yard man with benefits....but the benefits were taken away....so the yard man quit. lol


----------



## Chaparral

Garry2012 said:


> I used to be the yard man with benefits....but the benefits were taken away....so the yard man quit. lol


I would have told her to call her new man.


----------



## Garry2012

chapparal said:


> I would have told her to call her new man.


Yeah, i used that line. I am trying not to "engage", which that would do.


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## toonaive

Priceless Zillard!


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## A Bit Much

I would have been a lot colder. 

"Oh really? Thats too bad. Guess you need to take it in and get it fixed. Gotta go!" ... click.


----------



## happyman64

Garry2012 said:


> So, STBXW calls me/texts me this am "the car is not working right"...i repond ....how so?...tells me the car is shaking etc.
> 
> So, I tell her...well its your car....sell it or take it too the dealership....her reply "I have to work" (i guess i dont). I let her know "the dealership is open until 7pm".
> 
> is this cake eating? i am the handy man...but not good enough to be anything more? Yes, i laughed to myself during this discussion.


Correct response:

Sorry. You fired me so the car is no longer my responsibility. Click.

Or

Bummer for you. I hope your BF knows how to fix it. Click.

Problem solved.


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## Garry2012

Yeah I like the " sorry i got fired as husband"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

"Hey my soon to be ex-wife.....Call someone who actually gives a rat's ass...."


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## Garry2012

So, she texted me later in the day...something about the car prob not going to make it to the dealer...i just ignored it (trying not to engage)...i guess she got the hint and took it after work (amazing concept). Which was REALLY nice cause then i got a couple hours with the kids without X or MIL around....win/win!!

Have a good friday people!


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## spudster

She is starting to see the reality of what her life is going to be like. 

Its like a broken record...we see this over and over and over.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

spudster said:


> She is starting to see the reality of what her life is going to be like.
> 
> Its like a broken record...we see this over and over and over.


Yep! 

Like mine said... "Now it's getting real"


----------



## spudster

When a wayward is faced with dealing with the day to day hassles of life alone, all that hot sex with the OM/OW quickly loses its greasy luster.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Garry2012

Zanne said:


> Unless that wayward is already use to dealing with the day to day hassles. Just saying. (Heads up to lazy husbands.)
> 
> I'm not saying that I don't need a man. I just happen to be more independent than your wife, Garry. When my car makes a funny noise, I may ask my H what he thinks about it. But I take care of it myself. Why on earth would she expect you to take off work, but she can't?? I don't get that.


All true. I was her go-to helper for EVERYTHING. If she said she was hot, i got up and put the fan on. If the kids were too noisy and it bothered her, i would handle it. I pampered her no doubt. She will see OM wont so much. Independence has a down side that she maybe is starting to see.


----------



## spudster

Zanne said:


> Unless that wayward is already use to dealing with the day to day hassles. Just saying. (Heads up to lazy husbands.)
> 
> I'm not saying that I don't need a man. I just happen to be more independent than your wife, Garry. When my car makes a funny noise, I may ask my H what he thinks about it. But I take care of it myself. Why on earth would she expect you to take off work, but she can't?? I don't get that.


If you noticed this was an asexual post. I meant this going both ways, both husbands and wives. There are as meny helpless, clueless husbands as there are feckless wives.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## spudster

Garry2012 said:


> All true. I was her go-to helper for EVERYTHING. If she said she was hot, i got up and put the fan on. If the kids were too noisy and it bothered her, i would handle it. I pampered her no doubt. She will see OM wont so much. Independence has a down side that she maybe is starting to see.


Oh, those cheap rose colored sunglasses are going to get scratched up real fast when her precious OM realizes how helpless and spoiled she is. He's going to drop her like a hot rock. Keep doing what you're doing Gary. She wants her independence? You give her independence. If it has nothing to do with the kids, ignore it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> All true. I was her go-to helper for EVERYTHING. If she said she was hot, i got up and put the fan on. If the kids were too noisy and it bothered her, i would handle it. I pampered her no doubt. She will see OM wont so much. Independence has a down side that she maybe is starting to see.


And now we know not to do that anymore Garry. 

Just like children, if we pamper them too much we teach them to be spoiled and walk all over us.


----------



## Garry2012

Zanne said:


> But wait. Garry, even if she comes home, begging for your forgiveness and mercy, and you take her back... will she retain her princess rights?? Or will that dynamic change. I guess it doesn't really matter right now...deal with it if/when that happens.


Based on our scenerio, we will be D before she moves out. THAT would be a really big deterrent for me taking her back. Whoever i am involved with, i pamper....just how i am....but she has lost those rights.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah, it's very hard with kids to completely pull away. Not sure what OM status is other than separated.... I am assuming he does have his own place, as most people that separate move out. I told her a couple months ago to go live with him... She of course denies his existence and thier relationship.

Had a throw down with her mother yesterday when I refused to buy tires for her car. Basically now mother knows everything and is still ok with the divorce. No, I didn't buy the tires... She traded the car In and bought a new one under her name only(it was an older car that she didn't like anyway... And was going to sell after the divorce... This gets the car out of my name too)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Garry2012

Chuck71 said:


> "MiL I do not chit $, although I may had looked like I did in the past." Sounds like a few older "ladies" need to put on the big girl panties. Isn't it so ironic.....two married people cheat and expect the other to......be faithful LMAO! I will take trust issues for $300 Alex!


I know..MIL was just shooting her mouth off, and really made no sense...couple funny moments in there. She will just protect her wayward daughter NO MATTER what. I could have had PI pics....she knows she made a mistake....but thats about it. Birds of a freather.


----------



## Garry2012

I have come to hypothisize that MIL is saving daughter from HER own marital misery.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> I have come to hypothisize that MIL is saving daughter from HER own marital misery.


living vicariously through her daughter by projecting


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah... MIL has been in a bad marriage for 40 years... So she's taking up the cause of releasing her daughter from the years of misery. Only we all know she is just helping her throw her marriage away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

That's really sad.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah it is. She believes my stbxw 100%, and is almost in the fog with her. She feels like she is rescuing her from a bad marriage...like she has. Odd dynamic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

Eh....fvck 'em....


----------



## Garry2012

Yep lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

MiL-Palpatine
STBXW-Annakin aka Darth Vader


----------



## Garry2012

yes...the fog force is strong with this one....beware of the dark side.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah it is. She believes my stbxw 100%, and is almost in the fog with her. She feels like she is rescuing her from a bad marriage...like she has. Odd dynamic.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


People like that often want someone to vent on. To do so, they need you to fight back and show that you can be hurt.

If she fits this, consider agreeing with her, albeit with a grin. Give her a big smile and agree that you were an awful man and husband and that you are happy that your STBXW can move on. Don't fight her on this so she has nothing to argue about. When you don't give her the money, just note it is one more reason why you are such a bad person.


----------



## Garry2012

She has always been very overprotective...and I think she is trying to protect her daughter...and she is in denial about the EA too...not HER daughter...NEVER


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> She has always been very overprotective...and I think she is trying to protect her daughter...and she is in denial about the EA too...not HER daughter...NEVER


How DARE you Garry! 

We expected so much more from you.


----------



## Garry2012

haha..oh well


----------



## Garry2012

Yah..I was son in law of the year a year ago.....hmm...im starting to feel like Lance Armstrong.....maybe i was on HED (Husband Enhancing Drugs) and now that im off...im a loser...haha


----------



## A Bit Much

What a bunch of phonies. Bandwagon types bug me. I love my kids but if they screw up I'm calling them on it. Especially if I saw how things were with my own eyes! I mean seriously denial ain't just a river in Egypt. It runs right through the middle of your house Garry.


----------



## zillard

A Bit Much said:


> What a bunch of phonies. Bandwagon types bug me. I love my kids but if they screw up I'm calling them on it. Especially if I saw how things were with my own eyes! I mean seriously denial ain't just a river in Egypt. It runs right through the middle of your house Garry.


Ha. When I told my mother she said, "yes, you've always treated her well. BUT...."


----------



## Garry2012

A Bit Much said:


> What a bunch of phonies. Bandwagon types bug me. I love my kids but if they screw up I'm calling them on it. Especially if I saw how things were with my own eyes! I mean seriously denial ain't just a river in Egypt. It runs right through the middle of your house Garry.


Yep...agree on ALL counts. I would call my kids on it too...not to say i dont love them or support them, but you have to call it what it is.


----------



## Garry2012

So, today, after 2-3 days of zero contact, i get a text from X...wanting to talk about a class she will be taking. I, of course, am NOT responding...and I am very ok with the no contact at this point. Seems like the start of her initiating the conversations, i guess some result from the 180 etc.


----------



## turnera

Yep. Don't you know your job is to chase her and prop up her ego?


----------



## Garry2012

turnera said:


> Yep. Don't you know your job is to chase her and prop up her ego?


I got fired from that job


----------



## Garry2012

its the series 7 stockbroker license...which i used to have. she has a late nite buddy...the GoPhone Romeo can go help her.


----------



## Garry2012

it will be interesting going forward. When we broke up while dating...she came VERY close to nervous breakdowns...hysterical. I hope she has grown since then. 

Gotta say though, if it happens, i going to REALLY enjoy the shoe on the other foot.


----------



## Garry2012

HEY i was a stockbroker!!! haha I was reformed and became an accountant..lol


----------



## terrence4159

hang in there gary good things will come your way!


----------



## Shaggy

Gary,

I hope you gave back the MIL in the divorce. She doesnt sound much like a keeper.

So now you can upgrade both wife and MIL!

You need a No-My-Job-Anymore quick reply button on your phone for this times to break NC.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah, I have always had a better relationship with the kids... Even she knows that ...and I'm really working on it more now.

Love the "not my job anymore" line... I tell it to myself all the time too. She drops hints as to me doing something...I just ignore.

Mil is part of the "Togo" pack!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## terrence4159

WHAT the MIL sounds like a dear sweet lovable person to me i think you are over reacting :rofl: kidding i feel bad for you that suck being stuck wit the stbxw and the mil. 

just remember it pretty much will only get better from here :smthumbup:


----------



## Garry2012

MIL is just very confused...she is a pretty simple person who can't process what her daughter has done, so it has to be my fault. She thinks what she is doing is protecting her daughter from a bad marriage. I just get mad cause she overly praised me as wonderful for 15 years...oh well.

Yea Terrance, I used to dread her moving out.... Now I can't wait!!!!

Took two of my three kids to the zoo today... Good time out of the house!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Garry2012

Another member of th family has reached out to me... Apparently they are keeping all information private... And it seems like folks are getting suspicious about what is going Down. Might get interesting to watch lol.Like a bit much once said.... It's gonna start getting funny one day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## terrence4159

the zoo is always a fun place to go, been to that zoo a few times with my kiddo. and to get you away from the drama. 

yep one day you are going to sit back and laugh you butt off


----------



## happyman64

I do not know about laughing but I do agree that the less drama the better.

And you should have taken both of them to the zoo with the kids.

I heard the lions were hungry!

Oh well. Maybe next time......


----------



## zillard

Too bad you had to take em back to the zoo when you went home.


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## Garry2012

Yeah.... I live in the reptile enclosure... Nothin but snakes .. HAha
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Vrs

Don't know how much has changed since you started this thread because I didn't read all the posts, but from what you wrote originally she already has cheated on you. Even if she hasn't gone to bed with anyone, it's cheating to go through all the motions. It's manipulative, and it's a form of betrayal.

Who treats someone they love this way? Answer - no one.


----------



## Garry2012

Yep... Totally agree. She has treated me like crap... And I have let her know that on several occasions. Not much has changed... She is making a bline for divorce....with mom in full support... And everyday I get better and better with accepting that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## terrence4159

thats funny garry thank for the laugh


----------



## terrence4159

the reptile comment funny


----------



## Garry2012

So, in talking to two friends just yesterday, they BOTH know of a friend/family member where the wife went through the MLC/affair deal and left their family...funny...six months ago i had never heard (or noticed) one of these situations...now i see them EVERYWHERE! 

So, is it common for the family to just "not want to get involved" in a divorce? seems a little odd to me....wouldnt they want to know why etc? Especially when we seemed happy around them? (we NEVER fought in front of them because she thought that was awful--and really didnt fight much anyway outside of when men started entering her life)


----------



## Garry2012

Yep i agree Chuck. I know I shouldnt get my hopes up...but I REALLY am kinda looking forward to that moment of..."of crap what did I do?!?" Absolutely priceless.

So...I hear from the ATTY a couple days ago...the mediation session has been pushed back now to 4/2. Really?!?!? I have to live in the reptile enclosure for another 3 weeks? This is like a bad episode of Fear Factor or something...yet i keep waking up to it.

My oldest son now nows about the D...seems ok..thought im sure the reality hasnt kicked in. The youngest doesnt know, but the middle child did know, but seems to be blocking it all out. He is the one I worry about. Tried to express concern to X, but she rolled her eyes is disgust...i guess cause I am trying to "guilt her into staying"...so not at this point...


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## zillard

telling the kids would solidify it

it should happen


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## Garry2012

Chuck71 said:


> 1,000 post YAY lol yes i am weird


Yeah that is a bit odd...haha


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> telling the kids would solidify it
> 
> it should happen


They heard me and the MIL arguing a couple weeks ago...so....oldest was ok...thankfully.

I dont think there is any doubt that it will happen. She shows NO sign of slowing down now. She has backed herself so far in the corner now with the "i dont love him anymore" schtick, that she cant take a hit like that to her pride. Not to mention that OM is still in the picture so...that alone is enough too.


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## zillard

You've got to talk to them about it though. Let them know it has nothing to do with them and is not their fault. Or they will they will have those thoughts.


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> You've got to talk to them about it though. Let them know it has nothing to do with them and is not their fault. Or they will they will have those thoughts.


Yeah....I tried to avoid having all this hit in jan/feb...as my work hours have been crazy long and i am having trouble managing it all. I need to sit down with the oldest and talk more to him.


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## terrence4159

dont hold your breath on the oh crap what did i do moment.. i never got one of those closest i came to that was when my XW told my w she screwed up my wife said im glad you did 

so how you holding up?


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## Garry2012

No, I know. I would like it.... But it may be years. Got in an augment with her yesterday... She baited me... I took it. Then mil was telling someone on the phone this am how awful I am etc.... So we got into it, the she came down stairs, apologized... And for the first time apologized for her daughter and her actions. So for the first time I got SOME recognition that not the one at fault here. Finally. Of course she still will support her daughter... But we talked alot about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard

Good. Hopefully she'll be easier to deal (MIL)


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## terrence4159

i hope she can be civil when it comes to you/her/kids. me and my XW were no talk other than the kid, now my W deals with her i havent seen my XW in atleast a year. (god i love my wife  ) kid exchange twice a week


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## Garry2012

Yeah... Today was easier. I don't want a nuclear divorce.... Civil, talk about kids is good.... Taking each other to court to try to screw each other as much as possible... Not what I want... And not good for the kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## terrence4159

my fingers are crossed for you! nuclear divorce only hurts the kids.


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## Garry2012

I know and boy did it look bad after friday night. Now we are better than we have been in a while...as far as being civil. I still dont look at her or engage in convo unless it relates to the kids. We are all going to the zoo together today. See how that goes lol.


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## zillard

Have fun at the zoo Garry. Just watch out for those baboons. 

There are plenty of things to easily distract you at the zoo, if she does start the chit chat or drama. "DS look at that!"


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## Garry2012

Well zoo went fine. Very little interaction with X.... And she had an allergy atta h the whole time... So good time with kids. Then I went grocery shopping, made dinner, and gave them baths lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## terrence4159

good to hear you had a good time at the zoo!


----------



## Garry2012

its funny, i used to get texts all day long and 2-3 phone calls from her, now i dont, and dont even think bout it frankly. 

I dont bother looking at the phone records anymore, dont want to know where her car is or who she is talking to. 

I would like to return to our old life...but know thats not possible anymore. Even if she came skyrocketing out of the fog, it would take me a long time to accept her..and much longer to trust her. 

She looks miserable. Even once she gets rid of me, then she looks to be saddled with her mom for a while, along with the guilt of her actions, fear of her future, and soon the "freedom" of work wont be so great either (she already started griping to me about her soon to be long work hours---i giggled inside). 

So recap: She left a man who loved her, staying at home with her kids, no mother around (used to have a 5 day limit before mom drove her nuts) and getting to work out daily....for...a gophone hopeful, full time employment, halftime kids, and living with her mom? Yeah..i see all the logic here....haha


----------



## bandit.45

Hope she didn't pass her stuuupid gene onto the kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Garry2012

bandit.45 said:


> Hope she didn't pass her stuuupid gene onto the kids.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Funny...a couple female friends of mine said something like :"how stupid is she to do this?" 

The force of the Fog is strong....


----------



## gbonham77

you dont need to care about her anymore


----------



## Garry2012

So true .... Getting used to that more and more everyday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## brokin4hymn

Let her go and when she does, get a faithful woman. it's biblical!


----------



## Garry2012

Yah, it will be so refreshing to get someone I don't have to worry about...can't even imagine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## terrence4159

good things are comming gary, you will be fine


----------



## livinfree

*Re: Re: Wife's Midlife Crisis....what do i do?*



Garry2012 said:


> Funny...a couple female friends of mine said something like :"how stupid is she to do this?"
> 
> The force of the Fog is strong....


Same thing here, I get the exact same reaction.

I've finally got to the point where I don't care if her fog ever lifts. 

Huge turning point for me.


----------



## Garry2012

I def am getting there. Not havin my kids around me daily will be by far the biggest challenge... Stbxw can go
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard

The time away from your kids is a huge challenge - but use it to your advantage. When else have you had the time to do whatever you please? Time for Garry!


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## Garry2012

So this wknd, MIL was in a bad mood....wasnt just with me...noticed was not talking to X either. So, on Sunday, X was trying to talk to me more etc. I just walk away after a short cold response. Then she asked me if her hot sauce was good, and walked a chip over to the other room to have me try it. 

I dont think she is regretting yet....not sure i care either. She would have to have a full on meltdown for me to really think that. But frankly this sort of stuff like her trying to have warm conversation and nicely talking about hot sauce makes me uncomfortable.


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## zillard

Show me you still care, Garry. We can still be good friends, right?


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## Garry2012

zillard said:


> Show me you still care, Garry. We can still be good friends, right?


Yep...thats what i get too. I have told her never...but yeah, thats the vibe i get..."its ok...see you never really loved me anyway..we were just good friends all this time..so this can continue.." NOT


----------



## zillard

If you stay her friend, then what she did isn't THAT bad... Right. Certainly nothing to feel bad about. Which means this really is mostly your fault. 

Good. I feel better. Eat my sauce while I eat cake.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Garry2012 said:


> So this wknd, MIL was in a bad mood....wasnt just with me...noticed was not talking to X either. So, on Sunday, X was trying to talk to me more etc. I just walk away after a short cold response. Then she asked me if her hot sauce was good, and walked a chip over to the other room to have me try it.
> 
> I dont think she is regretting yet....not sure i care either. She would have to have a full on meltdown for me to really think that. But frankly this sort of stuff like her trying to have warm conversation and nicely talking about hot sauce makes me uncomfortable.


 Why are you playing house with her?


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## Garry2012

She wont leave (i cannot legally force her), and was told not to leave for house reasons. So i avoid her the best i can.


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## turnera

No, I mean tasting her salsa. That's what friends do.


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## Garry2012

I do find it difficult to ride the indifferent and not rude line...which caused tense, miserable conditions. Frankly, I care less and less about the mind games and just want her out. I have told her, and will continue to tell her that she is not, nor will she ever, be my friend again. I want to relax the tension as we get into the divorce proceedings because, as a mother, she seems to have the upper hand when it comes to getting the kids, the house, etc. She may be more willing to screw me if she hates me. If she wants to think we are good ole friends until its final, go ahead. Once its over it will be different.


----------



## This is me

Your path is much different than mine. When my wife of 17 years got struck by the depression of MLC, I made a ton of errors, but I knew deep down that she had dramatically changed from the women who once loved me, and the one I loved was still in there somewhere.

It was a long road, but we are back together and better than ever. 

I think the forest for the trees is to remember they are lost souls and the damage they have done and will do for a couple of years does pass. In my case she finally shook it and is the loving wife I married.

Stooping to their level is only feeding the fire.

In hindsight, I believe many marriages can be saved from divorce when the tempory mental illness of MLC hits, but it requires patience and the understanding that playing them at their level will never help the situation.


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## Garry2012

I agree with that. I am more at peace by going with it somewhat. I dont want to go home to a turf war, miserable pit of hatred. Which is what is was just a week or so ago. I will be cordial, but not friendly. I will gladly talk about the kids, but only when its involves a decision that needs to be made...not idle chatter. thats why i tasted the hot sauce, was cordial, but then got up and went to the other room to inhibit further discussion. I keep it short, and to the facts...no idle conversation...but no fighting either. I sleep better.

I feel confident she will come back, and that it wont be pretty when it hits her. But going back is a long journey for me...time will tell, but odds are I will not go back to her.


----------



## Garry2012

So I have started a journal to document how much I interact with the kids...baths, playtime, dentist appts etc. maybe it will help me hold on to at least 50/50 custody. Anyone have
Any ideas that might also help with me holding my own regarding custody?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Documenting every time your wife messes up with the kids.

Documenting every comment the kids make about her questionable activities, every time she brings her around other men, etc.


----------



## Garry2012

Well, with her mom there, she hasnt even gone out or anything. The biggest thing I see about her is that, especially now with her working and coming home at 6:30, she does nothing with them. So, I eat dinner with them, give them baths, play with them, and then two of them want sleep with me and have since early January. She in fact does NOT want them sleeping with her. She has never really taken them to the park or the zoo by herself, the most she has done is take them to the pool...but that was for her, and they tagged along (not suprizingly she likes the attn her new "girls" get at the pool i think). 

I spoke to my boss yesterday, and she is very willing to be flexible with my schedule to allow me to work from home two days or maybe three to take them to school and be with them. If that doesnt work, she also said she will help me get a job here with more work from home availability.

I think X is going to want to be primary custody ONLY for the child support.


----------



## Garry2012

Its amazing how much energy you have when you are driven. I cleaned the whole house, made lunch and dinner, played with the kids, gave them baths, helped with homework and STILL went to bed after X (she chooses to go to bed at 8:20 or so, just before the kids at 8:30). And Logged it all.....


----------



## Chuck71

Pantera

Far Beyond Driven

Far Beyond Driven - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Garry2012

So we have now traded the asset and liability forms. Should start to get interesting now.


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## Garry2012

oh yeah....I have to keep it to business. This is a 14 year deal that i (and atty) have to negotiate...and the sole reason I went with the more expensive male focused attny. 

Of course, her and her mother will bit and moan no matter....I just need them out of my life as much as possible.


----------



## Garry2012

I can be reasonable....if she can do 50/50 custody, I will give her something monthly so my kids and live in a decent place. Anything more than that is going to court.


----------



## Garry2012

worst case is she gets primary and then dumps the kids on me (dont get me wrong i would take full custody in a second) while she goes and parties it up. Then i pay out huge child support and be the babysitter.


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## Chuck71

women's movement did garnish one good thing.....guys do not get sh!tballed with the kids. go for full custody.....see what she does. i would just to p!ss in her corn flakes. maybe she parties enough not to give a damn. if so great for you. if not, go to step 2


----------



## Garry2012

If she pushes for primary custody, I will too...and my atty thinks i have a good chance. I cant get full...have to show that the other spouse is a bad parent...she isnt bad...just not involved. 

Yeah...ill take the kids any time....I suspect i will get them a bunch until she exits the fog...or if she does.


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> syou might be amazed at what people in the fog will give up, just to keep from facing reality


this is true.


----------



## Garry2012

Hard to ever imagine sometimes she will exit. She is money hungry and scared...she will be focused on $$ for sure.

I'm a classic Gen X father...my kids are my everything...and being involved in their lives is my world. My Dad was def not that way, standoffish, not loving, not that involved....he coached etc, but more tough love than anything.


----------



## Garry2012

she doesnt want the house....that i know of...she was initially justt wanting a car, a plate and a coffee pot...then reality set in


----------



## Garry2012

yeah...apparently i am the A$$hole good for nothing husband....


----------



## AlmostYoung

Chuck71 said:


> Then do not feel bad when you pull a german police dog and go for the throat...
> 
> p!ss in her corn flakes.



Please explain to us how flaming up a bitter D will help Garry and his kids. It won't.

Garry, take the high road and you will never regret it. When W grows up and looks back at all this, she will see everything for what it truly was. Be bitter, hateful, seek revenge, and try to hurt her, and you will only confirm in her and her family's mind that you were the problem all along, and she did the right thing by dumping you.

Don't forget, your kids will look back at all this too.

May you and your family find peace, my friend.


----------



## Garry2012

I agree...I just have to make sure im not short sticked in the process either. I dont want to fight or agrue with her anymore...let her go like i have been told so many times.


----------



## frozen

Garry,
Ask for 50/50. Don't threaten her with seeking full custody. She doesn't want and can't handle full custody anyway. If she asks for it I guarantee its a bluff to get you to pay more support for a 50/50 settlement.

Only accept you having full custody if she gives up something in return.


----------



## Garry2012

She wants primary to get more $$...only. She knows that they are closer to me, and how much they need me in their lives.

I think 50/50 is the best for them too...which is the main concern. No she cant handle it, but would give them to me and take the $$.

If she wont take 50/50 I will have to push for more...and we will end up in court.


----------



## frozen

But isn't that the bluff? 

How would she handle it if you only found the time to take them one or two weekends a month. 

YES she gets more money for support but do think she really would accept that responsibility if you gave it to her?


----------



## frozen

Throw it out there to her verbally so you can deny it off you have to. See how she reacts. Tell her she can have kids and child support but limit the xw stipend. 

Play hardball


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah...she SO doesnt want them all the time. Already told me she wants alot of wknds off to visit "friends". However, she knows how that would appear to her family if she didnt take it...so she would take it...with the money, and then use me as the babysitter.


----------



## Garry2012

in texas if they get primary custody..its pretty much a formula for support.


----------



## turnera

Can't you ask for primary custody?


----------



## Garry2012

yes...my lawyer thinks i would have a decent chance...and i would love to actually.


----------



## livinfree

You can always settle on 50/50 and continue to document. Then modify down the road and seek primary/full.

Documenting is key, NOT to show her as bad but to show YOU as involved.

This is why it's best to keep quiet and blitz the WW with divorce, if she has to much time to scheme and collaborate with toxic friends they will convince her the kids will be a meal ticket.


----------



## turnera

Ask for the moon.


----------



## Chuck71

Does not hurt to ask. You may find out the 3 2's win the poker game. A courtroom is like love, you should never attempt for anything but the full 100%. Follow it with negotiation. She is pu$$yfooting....take it right at her. You're in TX.....remember why the Cowboys were always great under Tom Landry.....


----------



## frozen

Difference between the football and baseball analogies is the team's really wanted to WIN. Garry's wife doesn't want the kids as primary caregiver, and is just using the threat as leverage.

In poker, how do you react when you think your opponent is bluffing? 

Garry needs to make it clear that if she is primary caregiver he is not going to be daycare and she won't be able to dump the kids on him whenever she wants an extended stay america. He needs to get her to understand this now before they are in court and the guns are drawn.

Sow the seeds of doubt in her that even if she gets support she will be miserable taking care off then alone and she won't be able to have the freedom to find herself yada yada yada.

What you wind up negotiating in court is another thing. You may be able to get the kids off the negotiating table and come to an agreeable amount. 

I think this situation is different in that most times the mother actually wants and is best choice as primary caregiver.


----------



## zillard

I got my daughter 6 nights a week with rights to relocate. 

How? I asked.


----------



## Garry2012

livinfree said:


> You can always settle on 50/50 and continue to document. Then modify down the road and seek primary/full.
> 
> Documenting is key, NOT to show her as bad but to show YOU as involved.
> 
> This is why it's best to keep quiet and blitz the WW with divorce, if she has to much time to scheme and collaborate with toxic friends they will convince her the kids will be a meal ticket.


YES....daily journal of how much i am basically running the house and almost solely taking care of the kids. She is too lazy to handle dealing with them after a long day at work...heck, she griped when she was home all day. 

I giggle to myself each time then dont make meals, dont bathe the kids, dont play with the kids. Each time its just a few more journal entires in my log.


----------



## Garry2012

Well, im not a great cook...yet, but i will experiment more when i have the time and can plan a little more. but the kids think i do just great. 

I have tried to take over everything she is too lazy or too slow to take care of. She seems to be letting me.


----------



## livinfree

*Re: Re: Wife's Midlife Crisis....what do i do?*



Garry2012 said:


> Well, im not a great cook...yet, but i will experiment more when i have the time and can plan a little more. but the kids think i do just great.
> 
> I have tried to take over everything she is too lazy or too slow to take care of. She seems to be letting me.


Don't sweat the cooking, look at it as a new hobby. Get the kids involved and its great health wise. I've cut out all boxed foods and make whole food dishes now. 

Cooking for kids is the easiest audience, make it fun and a routine event. I've established the routine for me and my son, drop what he's doing sit at the table and talk about the days events over dinner.

A side benefit, it will take your mind off all else, involve your kids and up your rank with women.

Same goes with daily housework.

Being the role model and taking charge of the household has given me confidence. My son needs me more than ever as the surviving parent.


----------



## Garry2012

yeah, i am actually getting into cooking..and once this has settled some..might take a cooking class.

I am very health conscious, and my kids know that. So it give me an opportunity to make good stuff for them...and I am much more open to them helping than my X was.

But, i have always also made pretzels and cookies for the kids occationally too....for fun.


----------



## turnera

Sign your kids up for the cooking class, too, if they're old enough. Let it become a bonding experience, learning to cook together.


----------



## Garry2012

So I have a meeting with my atty tomorrow...we are going to put together a settlement proposal to send to X to see how far apart we are prior to mediation. If we are far apart, we will skip mediation and go to court. This will help to show her hand about 50/50 or primary...which one she is wanting.


----------



## Garry2012

Update: Put together a fair settlement, to be delivered to X late this week. Hoping not to go to mediation, as that will not accomplish much, and cost a bunch..but my atty thinks her atty will force it to mediation for $.


----------



## turnera

Good luck.


----------



## Garry2012

Funny, when i started this thread, i had a hard time thinking of her not in my life, and not living with me etc...now I look forward to it.


----------



## frozen

*Re: Re: Wife's Midlife Crisis....what do i do?*



Garry2012 said:


> Funny, when i started this thread, i had a hard time thinking of her not in my life, and not living with me etc...now I look forward to it.


It's amazing what a little gaslighting and denial can accomplish.

I'm almost 18 months into R and still need medication to sleep and avoid exploding into seething anger.


----------



## Garry2012

Yep. I truly see her as a different person now... So cold and indifferent to her selfish goals.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Garry....sometimes you have to "lose" to win


----------



## livinfree

Chuck71 said:


> Garry....sometimes you have to "lose" to win


You will win more than you lose!


----------



## Garry2012

Things are ok. I had a good weekend with just me and the kids Mother Outlaw (she is on her way out, not in) left on Wednesday, and X supposedly went to Austin to visit a girlfriend early on Sat AM. I was curious if the kids would miss their mother--granted it was only Sat and most of Sun...they didnt ask about her or mention her at all. Telling of her involvement in their lives.

Yesterday I received a text from her Uncle....He said that he and her Aunt have been told to butt out and stay quiet--but that he wanted to stay in touch etc.


----------



## Garry2012

They seem to not know what to say, are sort of shocked by the events...as I would expect them too given the fact that we have always had a loving relationship.

I think her other cousins who talked to me are more object...and are starting to figure it out.


----------



## Garry2012

ok so, with moving day approaching (at some point), I need some advice on how to handle. I have no problem helping some, but if I do the kids would most likely be there to watch. If i let her do it, and take the kids somewhere, I am certain she would take stuff that she shouldnt. 

Thoughts?


----------



## Chuck71

Mike's Moving Service 1-800-SHE-PAYS


----------



## happyman64

If you are worried about her taking items then I would do it.

And if the kids will be there then by all means put on a happy face and kiss her @ss goodbye.....


----------



## livinfree

Garry2012 said:


> ok so, with moving day approaching (at some point), I need some advice on how to handle. I have no problem helping some, but if I do the kids would most likely be there to watch. If i let her do it, and take the kids somewhere, I am certain she would take stuff that she shouldnt.
> 
> Thoughts?


Watch your kids, let a relative friend watch her move.


----------



## zillard

I helped mine move. I was able to ensure it went smoothly and nothing went missing (except for ALL the pillows). 

However, it was an extremely awkward, stressful day for both of us... and so for kiddo as well.


----------



## A Bit Much

I would be there. I would even help her if she asked. Just don't get into any sappy conversations or friendly banter. You're only doing her one last big favor. Keep it all business. 

Can the kids go to a friends for the day? They need something fun to occupy their time for a few hours.


----------



## Garry2012

maybe her mom can watch them, but not sure X would not want her there for support. 

I expect it to be a stressful day too Z. 

Def no sappy conversations...im good there...past that, and cant imagine that she would engage in one at this point of her "fog".


----------



## Garry2012

Seems like she is so "independent" her mom helps her fight her battles. We dont talk, so blameshifting seems to be past its time...but you all have proved me wrong before. Maybe we can get the kids to stay at her new place while we pack the house up.


----------



## Garry2012

So, we are rapildly approaching the day X moves out (good), but that means we have to tell the kids what is going on soon too (nausiating). I understand that they will have lots of questions and concerns, cry and wanna talk and we will work through all that. I know we need to reassure them that we love them and will always be there for them, and that this is just between mom and dad only. Anything else that we need to make sure and cover? I have told on of the kids teachers, but will let the other know as well--they have a good couselor on staff that they can talk to.


----------



## zillard

A united front is best when possible. 

We both love you very much. 
We have some sad news to share.
This is not your fault. It's nothing you did. 
You can not change this. 
We love you and it's not your fault. 
We will always love you. 
Mom is always mom. Dad is always dad. 
We are not divorcing you.
This is what will change (be prepared with specifics)
This is what will stay the same.
Any feelings you have about this are ok. 
It's ok to share those with us.
We feel these things too.
We are both here for you to talk to. Alone or together.
Any questions are ok to ask.
We love you and it's not your fault.


----------



## Garry2012

good stuff...thanks Z


----------



## turnera

Usually, what they care about the most (for now) is what will their day look like? Where will they sleep? How will they get to school? Do they have to change schools? How will Santa find them? Stuff like that.


----------



## Garry2012

good stuff....thank you


----------



## ladymalin

Divorce is the fast and easy way out. And whether you both take that route or fight for your marriage is up to you. I will say this. I am a stay at home mom and have been married for over 15 years. I'm not saying all women are saints, but it is unlikely that most women, in my opinion, decide one day that they are getting old and don't want to be married any more. If she is saying things like you never loved her, there IS something about the way she needs to be loved that you are perhaps unaware of. Read the book The Five Love Languages and see a marriage counselor. I cried and begged for years for my husband to understand how important it is to me to get flowers once in a while, and only recently has he really listened. No matter what else you do for her, if you do not lover her the way she wants to be loved, she will think you do not love her. ASK why she feels unloved and do what you can to change that thing.


----------



## Garry2012

ladymalin said:


> Divorce is the fast and easy way out. And whether you both take that route or fight for your marriage is up to you. I will say this. I am a stay at home mom and have been married for over 15 years. I'm not saying all women are saints, but it is unlikely that most women, in my opinion, decide one day that they are getting old and don't want to be married any more. If she is saying things like you never loved her, there IS something about the way she needs to be loved that you are perhaps unaware of. Read the book The Five Love Languages and see a marriage counselor. I cried and begged for years for my husband to understand how important it is to me to get flowers once in a while, and only recently has he really listened. No matter what else you do for her, if you do not lover her the way she wants to be loved, she will think you do not love her. ASK why she feels unloved and do what you can to change that thing.


I would have read any book and tried to go to a marriage counselor..she just wants out. She is frustrated, with her life..she doesnt want any restrictions with her life, regrets the kids because they burden her, and wants to be 25 again. We went out occationally, we kissed three times a day minimum (once in the morning as i went to work, when i got home, and just prior to bed all with an "i love you"). I always made a big deal of birthdays, and Valentines day. I couldnt agree more that its the easy way out...but im not taking it...she is.

And no, this has not been a loveless marriage...a year ago we used to joke because the kids would catch us hugging and kissing in the kitchen, and SHE would say "You ought to be happy your mom and dad really love each other..many parents dont".


----------



## A Bit Much

She's about to regret a whole lot more in about 6 months. Pity.


----------



## livinfree

Garry2012 said:


> I would have read any book and tried to go to a marriage counselor..she just wants out. She is frustrated, with her life..she doesnt want any restrictions with her life, regrets the kids because they burden her, and wants to be 25 again. We went out occationally, we kissed three times a day minimum (once in the morning as i went to work, when i got home, and just prior to bed all with an "i love you"). I always made a big deal of birthdays, and Valentines day. I couldnt agree more that its the easy way out...but im not taking it...she is.
> 
> And no, this has not been a loveless marriage...a year ago we used to joke because the kids would catch us hugging and kissing in the kitchen, and SHE would say "You ought to be happy your mom and dad really love each other..many parents dont".


Yep, same thing here. One day just snap. In cases where an other man is NOT involved I can see that repairable. The overnight change is 99% another man or the prospect of another man, in which case the betrayed is pretty much doomed. Even if the wayward spouse comes back it will never be the same and likely will not be taken back as the betrayed has moved on.


----------



## A Bit Much

Chuck71 said:


> You hear quite often here......betrayed often end up in a better situation 6-12 months later than wayward.


Well yes, that's about the time it takes the wayward to realize that they could have just watered their grass instead of jumping the fence looking for greener pastures.

The reality hits them and then it's like Oh Sh... what did I do?


----------



## Garry2012

Chuck71 said:


> The statement she regrets the kids.....clearly opens the door to a plethora of internal issues. Ever wonder the truth on how long it festered inside her?


It has been a couple of years for sure. When we moved to Dallas, she started getting tired of the SAHM role, complained of making dinner, complained about kids alot etc, yet refused to get a job. It was then further compounded by hanging around single and DINKs that had far more flexibility in their lives. Then throw in facebook and guys falling all over her and you get the picture...life is greener without me, and then can use me as a babysitter.

Im open minded and was more than willing to be watered...I dont have a problem improving...but she didnt want to give me the chance. 

On another note:
We FINALLY sent her the proposed informal settlement yesterday..so it will be interesting if she responds to see where we stand for the scheduled mediation next Tuesday.


----------



## Shaggy

Be there,but do not lift a finger to help.


----------



## A Bit Much

I'm sure she would like nothing more than for all of it to be tied into a neat little bow. The thinking is the faster she gets out of this hell she's in the faster she can officially move on with her glorious life. 

How someone can go from a year ago kissing and hugging and proclaiming happiness to this is astounding.


----------



## Garry2012

A Bit Much said:


> How someone can go from a year ago kissing and hugging and proclaiming happiness to this is astounding.


Which is why i fought it so much--and still think she has just lost her marbles.


----------



## livinfree

Garry2012 said:


> Which is why i fought it so much--and still think she has just lost her marbles.


Totally, this has happened to several of my friends. It is freaky. 

I seriously thought at one point something is in the water.

It's like they just one day decide to go cougar.


----------



## A Bit Much

The SAHM thing wasn't happy-making.

The plastic surgery wasn't happy-making.

And now the divorce won't be happy-making either.

She's the common denominator here. Her general disposition is where it starts and ends.

ETA: Forgot one... getting married wasn't happy-making.

She's a real mess.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

A Bit Much said:


> Her general disposition is where it starts and ends.


I have to ask something to all victims of WAWs in general. Were they like this before? Did they always have their way, even when the marriage was dandy?


----------



## Thound

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## A Bit Much

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> I have to ask something to all victims of WAWs in general. Were they like this before? Did they always have their way, even when the marriage was dandy?


I think this is very possible. These people could have been spoiled rotten in childhood and now are of the belief that life and others revolve around their satisfaction. The people in their lives are the problem. Not that the problem is within.


----------



## Garry2012

A Bit Much said:


> The SAHM thing wasn't happy-making.
> 
> The plastic surgery wasn't happy-making.
> 
> And now the divorce won't be happy-making either.
> 
> She's the common denominator here. Her general disposition is where it starts and ends.
> 
> ETA: Forgot one... getting married wasn't happy-making.
> 
> She's a real mess.


So true on all counts. I am noticing that I am happier more, because i took the responsibility of trying to make her happy...and i could never.


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry you're happy because of 2 things.

You accept this is not all on you. 

You are OKAY with the outcome.

It's not what you would have signed up for voluntarily, but you're ok with it. You can let her go, and your conscience will be clear on all counts. This was HER decision. You're not whistling yankee doodle dandy out of your ass, but you're definitely not moping about wringing your hands in the air either. 

You're in a good place brother. ON TOP.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah, I did what I could to save it, and in the end this was all her.

I did the moping, I did the wringing. Been there done that. I got life to lead too, with her or without her.


----------



## zillard

A Bit Much said:


> I think this is very possible. These people could have been spoiled rotten in childhood and now are of the belief that life and others revolve around their satisfaction. The people in their lives are the problem. Not that the problem is within.


Many had terrible childhoods - anything but spoiled. The spouse putting them on a pedestal and acting codependently in the M is a very common factor though.


----------



## A Bit Much

zillard said:


> Many had terrible childhoods - anything but spoiled. The spouse putting them on a pedestal and acting codependently in the M is a very common factor though.


That too. It's not just one thing, it's a combination of things.

Selfish is selfish though. That doesn't come from another person, that's within. It either gets cultivated or grown out of.


----------



## Chuck71

Garry....you are family oriented, caring, compassionate...and a leader. You will not be on the open market long. Smart females smell that 50 miles away


----------



## Garry2012

Chuck71 said:


> Childhood and Pittsburgh.....similar
> 
> Three Rivers....and to all unique
> 
> pattern same, coping different
> 
> Garry....you gave all, hold head high
> 
> read ReGroup, GutPunched....everything is balance
> 
> be ready when tides shift


Yeah I have to say im almost excited to get her out, so the reality can start to hit when she moves out.


----------



## lostinmyownworld

Garry, I'm freaking out right now....read this entire thread and have had a very similar situation happening to me. My wife walked away for the first time in November and came back for the holidays and then again left January 1st...saying that she needed time and space away. There has been another guy involved since the fall, who I allowed to be in the picture. We are both 41 and have two kids who are 18 and 16. I am miserable and don't want to accept the inevitable. She told me yesterday that she wants me to go out and have my own fun...she is totally in love with the other guy. We tried marriage counseling in November and she decided from that point forward that she wanted to go alone. Even the counselor has told me that I should consider my marriage over and move forward with my life but I don't want my 20 year marriage to the most wonderful woman to be over. She changed completely after my son left for college and is a ghost of what she once was. Any advice for me new friends of this site?


----------



## A Bit Much

lostinmyownworld said:


> Garry, I'm freaking out right now....read this entire thread and have had a very similar situation happening to me. My wife walked away for the first time in November and came back for the holidays and then again left January 1st...saying that she needed time and space away. There has been another guy involved since the fall, who I allowed to be in the picture. We are both 41 and have two kids who are 18 and 16. I am miserable and don't want to accept the inevitable. She told me yesterday that she wants me to go out and have my own fun...she is totally in love with the other guy. We tried marriage counseling in November and she decided from that point forward that she wanted to go alone. Even the counselor has told me that I should consider my marriage over and move forward with my life but I don't want my 20 year marriage to the most wonderful woman to be over. She changed completely after my son left for college and is a ghost of what she once was. Any advice for me new friends of this site?


You should probably start your own thread, you'd get more answers that way.

I think your counselor is right BTW. You heard it from the object of your affection... she's in love with and wants someone else.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah, start a thread. You will see alot of the same advice you saw in my thread.


----------



## turnera

And as soon as you start your own thread, call her parents, siblings, and best friends and tell them she is cheating on you, and ask them to talk to her.


----------



## fetishwife

Why anyone would want to keep a spouse that is 

(1) Cheating
(2) Telling you they are in love with someone else and its OVER

I dont understand.

That is clear language....its over.


----------



## livinfree

Chuck71 said:


> Garry....you are family oriented, caring, compassionate...and a leader. You will not be on the open market long. Smart females smell that 50 miles away


I can vouch for that. Kick some tires and test drive.


----------



## Garry2012

Zanne said:


> Oh, please. When I read this, it reminded me of the Jim Carey movie, The Truman Show. His life seemed perfect too. Except it was all fake.
> 
> And maybe your life together was mostly good, but there must have been an area of weakness. Or, maybe it was your wife who was weak. Maybe after the move to Dallas, her insecurities pushed her too far in the wrong direction.
> 
> I'm still wishing she would soften just a little towards you. But I know you need to move on; you're doing the right thing.


Believe me, I know. I didnt live with blinders on. Seems rediculous i know, but i didnt live with my head in the sand thinking it was all great. I think you hit it on the head, the move to Dallas, increased social life combined with her constant insecurities pushed her over the edge. There are weaknesses in every relationship, but I still think we had one of the best..and she did too up until the last couple years. 

Maybe she was faking all this time, i ask myself too. But it was not out of the ordinary, or overboard. When/if the tide changes, I expect myself to tell her she must not have ever loved me and the last 12 years were a phony, then i will tell her to get over it and move on like i did.

I dont care if she softens and dont expect it. She has backed herself into a corner, her pride will not allow her to soften, and she can see I am moving on.


----------



## Garry2012

Zanne said:


> I'm not saying she was faking all this time. Only, you may not have been aware that trouble was brewing until it was too late. I'm referring to the "shock" that she's somehow a different person. One doesn't wake up and change overnight. If you are able, have compassion for her - it's truly sad what she has done to her family, but continue to stay strong. I think you are doing a great job in keeping your own sanity, all things considered.


I agree....it wasnt overnight. I saw it coming for two years after the "shock" of turning 40..she started to change. She started changing who she was in the two years. However, she still professed that she loved me, even during the first half of 2012....as she always had, but maybe was fighting her other emotions. Then she snapped finally in June...but not because of anything I did really, she had her OM at that point. 

I will have some compassion when the tide turns and she is going through what i have. She will suffer i suspect.


----------



## lostinmyownworld

Thanks for the advice all. Garry, I have to add that your wife, just like mine, must have been putting on an academy award winning performance for the last few years....especially since she has said that she was miserable and that we were to blame totally. I am a very intuitive person....my wife was very happy until the summer of '12, when my son(our oldest) left for college. Was there a cataclysmic event that set yours over the edge too? :scratchhead:


----------



## Garry2012

lostinmyownworld said:


> Thanks for the advice all. Garry, I have to add that your wife, just like mine, must have been putting on an academy award winning performance for the last few years....especially since she has said that she was miserable and that we were to blame totally. I am a very intuitive person....my wife was very happy until the summer of '12, when my son(our oldest) left for college. Was there a cataclysmic event that set yours over the edge too? :scratchhead:


Something came to fruitition in June...but I think it was her relationship with OM. We were ok, but she just pulled away and checked out emotionally.

Its a transition....she went from all me, to part me, to no me....she just hid the "part me" section of the transition....


----------



## lostinmyownworld

Mine as well...in September emotionally after she met the OM. I am an idiot for allowing her to see this guy though. I invited it as an open marriage and it was a horrible mistake on my part. Your situation is different and you seem like more of a victim of your wife. You seem strong. That is admirable.


----------



## Garry2012

lostinmyownworld said:


> Mine as well...in September emotionally after she met the OM. I am an idiot for allowing her to see this guy though. I invited it as an open marriage and it was a horrible mistake on my part. Your situation is different and you seem like more of a victim of your wife. You seem strong. That is admirable.


Not aways strong...trust me or read my thread. I am just at the acceptance phase of the grieving process....like ABM said, im ok with the future now. I have basically been a single parent since October..ill be just fine...and you will be too.


----------



## lostinmyownworld

Yeah, lol, I know what you mean. I've been a single parent since November 1st when I found out she said that she hasn't had feelings for me in years. I know how tough that is. My 16 y.o. daughter is feeling the pain of mom abandoning us to live with her single female friend she's now paying rent to. I feel your pain.


----------



## Garry2012

eh, no pain...i run the house better than she ever did haha...its cleaner and more organized lol.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> i run the house better than she ever did haha...its cleaner and more organized lol.


Just wait until she's out. It'll be a breeze. 

Less laundry. Fewer dishes. Less clutter. Neat closet. Bathrooms...oh bathrooms!


----------



## Garry2012

yeah really....the dinners are what drive me nuts...i cant plan because i dont know if MIL is making something, or eating or whatever...once i know its me, or me and the kiddos....cant wait.


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> if your night to cook...and MiL cooks, let her feed it to the stray dogs.


Yes. I'm sure stbxw will be hungry.


----------



## Garry2012

So, a couple days ago, X was late coming home--so mother outlaw tells me, X is getting a chest xray...if you care...(wanted to say..i used to, but not my problem anymore)..so i just say..ok.

X went to the hospital that night i guess for further review. Normally, I would have driven her there, waited with her and comforted her...now, I locked up the house, put the kids to bed and slept like a baby. 

I need to carry around a quarter...so if she ever says "dont you care" ill flip it to her and say "no, but here, call someone who does"....


----------



## Garry2012

she would if it affected how much child support her "angel" would get i imagine -


----------



## happyman64

lostinmyownworld said:


> Garry, I'm freaking out right now....read this entire thread and have had a very similar situation happening to me. My wife walked away for the first time in November and came back for the holidays and then again left January 1st...saying that she needed time and space away. There has been another guy involved since the fall, who I allowed to be in the picture. We are both 41 and have two kids who are 18 and 16. I am miserable and don't want to accept the inevitable. She told me yesterday that she wants me to go out and have my own fun...she is totally in love with the other guy. We tried marriage counseling in November and she decided from that point forward that she wanted to go alone. *Even the counselor has told me that I should consider my marriage over and move forward with my life but I don't want my 20 year marriage to the most wonderful woman to be over. She changed completely after my son left for college and is a ghost of what she once was.* Any advice for me new friends of this site?


Lost
You are in love with the image that was your wife. She is no longer that person.

You are losing your marriage for two reasons.


She is selfish.
 You allowed her to be in an open marriage that you did not participate in.

*"Let Her Go"*

She is not the woman you married.

And you should not be her Plan "B".

If you value love, honor and commitment go find another woman that will also honor it for the next twenty years with you.

HM64


----------



## happyman64

Garry2012 said:


> So, a couple days ago, X was late coming home--so mother outlaw tells me, X is getting a chest xray...if you care...(wanted to say..i used to, but not my problem anymore)..so i just say..ok.
> 
> X went to the hospital that night i guess for further review. Normally, I would have driven her there, waited with her and comforted her...now, I locked up the house, put the kids to bed and slept like a baby.
> 
> *I need to carry around a quarter...so if she ever says "dont you care" ill flip it to her and say "no, but here, call someone who does"...*.


I like your attitude Garry. Do not lose it.


----------



## Garry2012

So, Easter went ok. I made the dinner, I colored eggs with the kids (X helped-but wasnt going to do it) and overall a decent day. Tomorrow is mediation...i dont know why I am so stressed about it, but I am.


----------



## bourning

Good Luck for tomorrow


----------



## happyman64

I know why you are stressed but try not to let it get to you.

She is closer to gone. You should be thrilled.


----------



## Garry2012

I will be thrilled when she is out and this is over.


----------



## Garry2012

So, mediation is over, and we have an agreement. As expected, and despite her putting her hand on the bible and swearing to it, she tried to screw me as much as she could. 

She will be out in no more than 3 weeks, we have close to 50/50 sharing arrangement as joint convervators, though she is technically the "primary" I dont see anything that she can do that I cannot, or any extra benefits other than some additional time with the kids.

The child support, which was the biggest issue, took all day and we compromised, its too high for me, and im sure too low for her.

Mother Outlaw actually had the nerve to look at me and say "I wish this never happened, but I was never against you." I was able, however, to prevent my thoughts from hitting my lips, and was able to just walk away.


----------



## livinfree

Continue to document/journal after she is gone. 

My lawyer suggested the same and even though my decree was 50/50 with me as primary; after my ex is gone it will be 90/10 at which point I will motion to modify and can get CS from _her_.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah I will. One of the oddest conditions of the agreement was her insistance that I use her mother as "day care" versus any commercial place. Meaning, either mother outlaw is moving here, unlikely, or will be here a long time. So, while X is striving for freedom, she is now living with mom, and has less freedom than I do....i dunno...makes me chuckle.

Yeah LF, I talked about it with my atty, she said to document and if i find that i have the kids 60/40, we will take her back to court and modify.


----------



## livinfree

Right on brother!


----------



## Garry2012

Chuck71 said:


> Always document! Always keep VAR with personal chats about kids. When the kids reach a certain age, they do not care to go when agreed upon. They will flat out say 'i dont wanna go'


Yeah, My 11yo is already at that point...though I think for now the Xbox will lure him anywhere. He has stated to me twice in the last couple of days, that he simply doesnt trust his mother and that she is just mean to him. Sad really.


----------



## joei

Jeez...and I bet her mom was in her ear the whole time. I work for the Court system as a Deputy Clerk. I basically do everything and the Judge decides. I worked as an investigator for Child Support Enforcement and a number of years as a clerk in Family/divorce Court. It always made me crazy that people would bring their new significant others to these things or family members. They usually cause so many problems because they are always in the X's ear. I'm glad to hear that you were able to come to an agreement. You made a good deal on support. The best deals are when both people are not entirely happy with it.


----------



## Garry2012

Chuck71 said:


> that is beyond sad.....shows her priorities


It is sad, and he said something to that effect on two separate occations. He was afraid I would tell her, and I assured I wouldnt (continue to build trust), but also let him know that my role is to help him get along and understand with his mother, because she is his mother.


----------



## Garry2012

joei said:


> Jeez...and I bet her mom was in her ear the whole time. I work for the Court system as a Deputy Clerk. I basically do everything and the Judge decides. I worked as an investigator for Child Support Enforcement and a number of years as a clerk in Family/divorce Court. It always made me crazy that people would bring their new significant others to these things or family members. They usually cause so many problems because they are always in the X's ear. I'm glad to hear that you were able to come to an agreement. You made a good deal on support. The best deals are when both people are not entirely happy with it.


Her mom was not in the room, however, i know that a couple of the items she demanded HAD to be directly from her--and were really of no consequence.


----------



## Garry2012

So, yesterday we had the talk with the boys. Although my oldest knew what was going on, he still was upset. Both boys cried for about 10 minutes or so. We reassured them that Daddy was going to see them all the time, X even said I could see them every day if they/I wanted. I, of course, did 90% of the talking.

I then took them roller skating and they asked more questions in the car etc. I kept reassuring that I am not going anywhere, that I love them more than anything, and that we will still do stuff like we do now. They were concerned that they would have to switch schools etc, but after they realized that they wont, and that they can still come "home" when with Daddy, they seemed alot better. 

I checked on them constantly during the day, hugging and asking how they are, or if they would like to talk...they seemed ok. Ill continue to monitor them.


----------



## A Bit Much

Did the kids ask your wife anything? They seem more concerned about you than her. She seems completely disconnected from everything and everyone. It's like she's an extra in a stage play or something... following someone else's script with little or no input to the plot or story, just standing in when she needs to.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah, she showed zero emotion when telling them. They looked to me for answers, and did for the rest of the day. To my knowledge, she never asked them how they were doing or anything later that day...she is lost.


----------



## A Bit Much

She's been as fake with you guys as her chest.

Too sad.


----------



## Garry2012

I guess when you are convinced that your husband is the problem, and the kids are an obstacle to your happiness, its easy to just walk away from all the headaches.


----------



## Garry2012

Then I get a text at 12:20 am, asking about my daughters school payment (from someone who goes to bed at 830). I ALMOST sent the "im not ok with texts in the middle of the night", but I will wait until she does that again.


----------



## A Bit Much

Oh so she can't sleep? What a surprise. She's so concerned about a school payment, but couldn't really have a discussion with them about her moving out etc.? 

She needs therapy.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah she does need help. Guess if/when she ever exits the fog she can go get some. Until then, I am the problem.


----------



## Garry2012

So the kids continue to have questions about what will happen, and how often they will see me. Heartbreaking to me that they have to go through all this for someones selfish actions.


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> So the kids continue to have questions about what will happen, and how often they will see me. Heartbreaking to me that they have to go through all this for someones selfish actions.


Just keep reassuring them and answering those questions. They're worried about you too. 

You're doing great even though it doesn't feel that way.


----------



## zillard

I make sure and let mine know she doesn't need to worry about hurting my feelings. Any questions she has are ok to ask, and I will answer them honestly (age appropriately). 

Any feelings are normal and fine, and good to talk about as well.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah I told them that i want them to tell me what they are feeling, and to be open with me about any questions they have.

I dont feel like I am doing a good job, but as long as it bothers them I will feel insufficient. I did just send an email to their teachers to get them in with the school councilor. At least they will get some professional help too.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah I told them that i want them to tell me what they are feeling, and to be open with me about any questions they have.


This is good, but when they don't feel like talking (at times they won't) - that's fine too. 

Sometimes they'll need you without knowing or saying though so watch for clues. When my daughter just randomly comes up and gives me a hug or lays her head on me, I know she needs some comfort. 

I do a feelings pie chart with mine, but I don't push it. If she starts talking about her feelings I then ask about her slices. We discuss but if it gets difficult for her and she clams up or changes subjects suddenly, I go with it and just express my love. 



Garry2012 said:


> I dont feel like I am doing a good job, but as long as it bothers them I will feel insufficient.


Does any good parent not feel this way at times?


----------



## Garry2012

Day 4 after the kids were told..they still have some questions...but overall seem to be ok. I talked to their teachers at school to have the school coucilor talk to them. 

Yesterday my oldest was excitedly telling me that his mom found a house, and that he has already chosen his bedroom. He is also excited to maybe get an itouch so he can text and facetime with me whenever he wants.

Making progress...


----------



## Garry2012

On another note, she JUST called me to confirm she can use my insurance to pay for a small procedure she needs to have done because she is sick day in day out...of course stopping twice to cry as she is telling me this. I calmly let her know that she can use my insurance, but I dont believe its fair to use my HSA money to pay for it. Granted, she can do either until the final decree, but she seemed to agree. Nice thing was, her crying didnt affect me at all...


----------



## althea0212

Garry2012 said:


> So, a couple days ago, X was late coming home--so mother outlaw tells me, X is getting a chest xray...if you care...(wanted to say..i used to, but not my problem anymore)..so i just say..ok.
> 
> X went to the hospital that night i guess for further review. Normally, I would have driven her there, waited with her and comforted her...now, I locked up the house, put the kids to bed and slept like a baby.
> 
> I need to carry around a quarter...so if she ever says "dont you care" ill flip it to her and say "no, but here, call someone who does"....



Your ex-wife is still the mother of your children. If she is ill, your children may worry for her. It may be difficult to be with your ex-wife but since you are now handling the kids, you also stand as the person they would consider as a good example. So if you will show that you are insensitive to their mother, they may also do the same to you, to their mother and to their future spouse.


----------



## Garry2012

I agree, there is a line between "insensitive" and being the caring husband she had. I will be colder certainly...i have been used enough in this relationship. She turned her back and walked away. I will help her where i can, but Im not going to sit at the doctors office with her. IMHO I have been a good example...i have a cheating spouse that i have coexisted in a house with for 6 months while she and her mother have plotted against me, while I made dinner for them the vast majority of the time. I dont fight with her, helped her buy a new car, and she even uses my insurance. All while being at the low point of my life, knowing she is leaving me for another man, and her mother puts me down.

But I am not going to let her use that "i am the mother of your children" line to continue to use me to make her life easy, and to use me as her handy man.


----------



## Chuck71

You're being the better person. 5 star Garry. In the end, you know you are and so does the ex and MiL


----------



## Althea789

I'm a 42 yr. old married woman, I cannot relate to your wife at all & I agree with what everyone here is telling you. Time to file for divorce.


----------



## Garry2012

Althea789 said:


> I'm a 42 yr. old married woman, I cannot relate to your wife at all & I agree with what everyone here is telling you. Time to file for divorce.


thanks...I filed, we mediated, and in two week it will be official.


----------



## Chuck71

in 2 weeks she will be a certified idiot


----------



## PeterKent

My wife had a midlife crisis and I never even knew about it until last year. She is 58 now and all the secrets came out when our neighbours wife left him. She told me that he had my wife 15 years ago while I was away with the TA and it just went from strength to strength. He made her pregnant once and his wife went with her for the termination. All very cosy and while he was ****ing my wife so his wife was intimate with his brother. It seems that they invited her in for a drink as I was away and when it came to coming home he insisted on walking her the huge 25 yard distance to our front door. He followed her in and without any resistance or objection from her they ****ed in the hallway and then pretty much everywhere else in the house. What a weird life we lead.


----------



## Garry2012

So, Saturday is her move out date. While she didnt want much furniture, she is making sure she takes everything else. On Sunday my exmil actually told me that "this is all my fault". When i confronted her about what was my fault, she said that "you didnt work for your marriage hard enough, and you filed". Now, she is not very smart, and had her head in the sand, but those comments didnt go over well--to say the least. Anyway...count down to Saturday!!!!! Who hoo!!!!


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> So, Saturday is her move out date. While she didnt want much furniture, she is making sure she takes everything else. On Sunday my exmil actually told me that "this is all my fault". When i confronted her about what was my fault, she said that "you didnt work for your marriage hard enough, and you filed". Now, she is not very smart, and had her head in the sand, but those comments didnt go over well--to say the least. Anyway...count down to Saturday!!!!! Who hoo!!!!


OMG. She can't just mind her own ffing business? Part of your problems are rooted with how she coddled her daughter. I hope you gave her a piece of your mind, I would have found it very difficult not to.


----------



## Garry2012

A Bit Much said:


> OMG. She can't just mind her own ffing business? Part of your problems are rooted with how she coddled her daughter. I hope you gave her a piece of your mind, I would have found it very difficult not to.


I did, but she literally argues like a 15 year old, so you get nowhere. She proceeded to tell me that I must have done something bad too...etc. There is NO getting into her little head..at all. I had to walk away, she isnt worth it and the kids were around..so...i dropped it. 

Like we have said, demonizing me makes it all ok, what they are doing and why she protects her daughter.


----------



## A Bit Much

LOL.

You MUST have done something? She's been watching you busting your ass around there for those kids and taking care of everything. She doesn't notice her daughter doing the complete opposite? She doesn't want to notice. She doesn't want to believe that her precious baby threw away a perfectly good man and ruined her family unit. In 6 months it'll really become clear to her when your exW tries to introduce some jerk to her.


----------



## Garry2012

A Bit Much said:


> LOL.
> 
> You MUST have done something? She's been watching you busting your ass around there for those kids and taking care of everything. She doesn't notice her daughter doing the complete opposite? She doesn't want to notice. She doesn't want to believe that her precious baby threw away a perfectly good man and ruined her family unit. In 6 months it'll really become clear to her when your exW tries to introduce some jerk to her.


No, she can't process what her daughter has done, and continues to do, so it MUST be me..and that makes it all work. Its funny, 3-4 months ago, I thought the move out date would be the worst....now, i am giddy with the thought of them not being there!!! Like im going on vacation! 

On another note, my kids saw the school coucelor, and she said they seem fine. In fact, my son came to me and said "really Dad? you want us to talk to her?" joking. I told him yeah, i wanna make sure you can talk about what is going on to me and to her, because she is very good at this stuff. Then he proceeded to tell me that exmil told him that he doesnt need to talk to couselors, just talk to her. Does the stupidity ever end?


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> No, she can't process what her daughter has done, and continues to do, so it MUST be me..and that makes it all work. Its funny, 3-4 months ago, I thought the move out date would be the worst....now, i am giddy with the thought of them not being there!!! Like im going on vacation!
> 
> On another note, my kids saw the school coucelor, and she said they seem fine. In fact, my son came to me and said "really Dad? you want us to talk to her?" joking. I told him yeah, i wanna make sure you can talk about what is going on to me and to her, because she is very good at this stuff. Then he proceeded to tell me that exmil told him that he doesnt need to talk to couselors, just talk to her. Does the stupidity ever end?


Thank God the kids are upfront and open with you. You need to know all this underhanded BS that goes on when you aren't around. Wait until you all are under separate roofs. You're going to hear all kinds of nonsensical stories from those kids where your exMIL and exW are concerned. Talking to school counselors won't hurt your kids. The effects of what's going on at home may hit them in their teens. It's not an absolute, but it's good to have people in place to help just in case you start to notice some adverse changes in them.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> I did, but she literally argues like a 15 year old, so you get nowhere. She proceeded to tell me that I must have done something bad too...etc. There is NO getting into her little head..at all. I had to walk away, she isnt worth it and the kids were around..so...i dropped it.
> 
> Like we have said, demonizing me makes it all ok, what they are doing and why she protects her daughter.


"I'm sorry you feel that way".

She likely only spews crap like that when she is starting to see her daughter as she is. So she drops bait with you hoping you will nibble and react so she can point the finger at you and go back to denial regarding her precious daughter.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah Z, and I took it dang it.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Garry2012 said:


> I did, but she literally argues like a 15 year old, so you get nowhere. She proceeded to tell me that I must have done something bad too...etc. There is NO getting into her little head..at all. I had to walk away, she isnt worth it and the kids were around..so...i dropped it.
> 
> Like we have said, demonizing me makes it all ok, what they are doing and why she protects her daughter.


Consider agreeing with her. Respond that she is right, and that if you were a better husband, you would have let your STBXW to [insert bad traits here]. But because your are a bad husband, you did not and here you are.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah, i need to just agree with her...she and her daughter are finally getting rid of the POS SIL/husband and now they can focus on getting someone quality.


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## Shaggy

The biggest win here is getting rid of the exmil. In the future I suggest your only reply to anything she says is to act like she hasn't spoken at all. In other words truly ignore her even to her face
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Garry2012

Shaggy said:


> The biggest win here is getting rid of the exmil. In the future I suggest your only reply to anything she says is to act like she hasn't spoken at all. In other words truly ignore her even to her face
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Boy aint that the truth....4 days....4 days...and I dont have to go home to those two crazed out dingbats. First night, I am grilling a steak, baking a potatoe and sitting down to watch a ballgame!!!!


----------



## Shaggy

Kinda proves the old adage about girls turning into their
Mothers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Garry2012

and the adage that the "apple doesnt fall far from the tree"


----------



## turnera

Shaggy said:


> Kinda proves the old adage about girls turning into their
> Mothers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 It scares me sometimes when I see just HOW much my DD22 is like me. And I know I was just like my mom. Feel bad for my H, having TWO of us doing the SAME things to him, lol. We even squawk at him together if he upsets us (since what upsets one of us, upsets the other). :rofl:


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> and the adage that the "apple doesnt fall far from the tree"


So true Garry. 

My exMIL lives alone in an apartment. Divorced. On meds. Rarely sees her own family. Estranged from her daughter. Hates and won't speak to her mother. Blames her situation on everyone else because they just don't care about her. Goes into rages when she doesn't get her way. 

My X... bing!


----------



## livinfree

Shaggy said:


> Kinda proves the old adage about girls turning into their
> Mothers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If not physically, certainly by personality.


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> So true Garry.
> 
> My exMIL lives alone in an apartment. Divorced. On meds. Rarely sees her own family. Estranged from her daughter. Hates and won't speak to her mother. Blames her situation on everyone else because they just don't care about her. Goes into rages when she doesn't get her way.
> 
> My X... bing!


Yep. My X used to gripe that her mom "shouldnt let other people determine her happiness" yet, this whole process has been about me "not making her happy"....uhh hello?!?


----------



## Garry2012

Chuck71 said:


> Garry I am sure you answered this before
> 
> with an ex in law living in your house, is she paying rent?
> 
> if not, call the police and have her removed
> 
> her name is not on lease nor deed


I actually discussed this with my lawyer, who highly recommended that i NOT do something that drastic. She does buy food etc, and her being there keeps from having to pay child care.


----------



## frozen

Very happy for you Garry. Toxic friends can be dealt with but this is entirely different. I would never want to be privy to what that woman stores under her shag carpet, I think my insomnia would become fatal.


----------



## Garry2012

Yep, at some point you just have to cut the cancer out and move on.


----------



## Verushkita

Garry, I read you story from beginning to end, you seem to be in a better place without your WW. Stay strong for your kids and be good to yourself. Thanks for sharing this!


----------



## Garry2012

Thank you Verushkita. Maybe I or my story can help others, like so many of you have helped me.


----------



## Garry2012

So, found out last night, that mother outlaw had started moving the crap out yesterday, and I think X is moving today. Finally, I can go home and not see those two!!

Might be the first weekend I can relaxed in 6 months!


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## livinfree

Right on brother!


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## Chuck71

time for that steak, b tater and a nice 12 pack! Almost makes ya want to smoke a ciggy as a victory lap


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## LostViking

Turn the house into a man cave!

I suggest a neo-pagan,Viking motif.


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## Garry2012

With the she-devils out, its paradise as is! Now they are finally rid of the terrible SIL/H and can move on to a wonderful life together.


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

What happened to the OM?
What happened to her affair?
Did she continue it throughout the entirety of your painful, drawn out divorce process? Or did reality kill her affair, and MIL and FIL move in to fill the void of the dead affair, and "justify" her and validate her version of reality to boot?


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## Chuck71

Congratulations Garry...... you made it! Small victory felt here with me. I think your thread was the first one I read back in November. Raising a glass for you!!!!


----------



## livinfree

Three cheers brother !


----------



## frozen

*Re: Re: Wife's Midlife Crisis....what do i do?*



LostViking said:


> Turn the house into a man cave!
> 
> I suggest a neo-pagan,Viking motif.


He can get that OUTSIDE, he lives in Texas!


----------



## J9R

Get finances in order, locked down and file for divorce. She is def having a MLC and if she thinks its greener, let her discover its not! Maybe a hard jerk on her reality chain will help. She wants out?, show her the door, but that leaves behind the SAHM life she's living. Tell her kids stay put, money stays put and you stay put...she best go find a job, an apartment, a very good attorney -- at her expense, and a brain she must've tossed in last Tuesday's trash. Some women are just so stupid. She definitely has self esteem issues based on her total makeover, probably on your dime. Offer to attend counseling. It'll be hard, but this **** needs to stop. Disrespectful!


----------



## J9R

Ha! New to this....glad it worked out as it should!



J9R said:


> Get finances in order, locked down and file for divorce. She is def having a MLC and if she thinks its greener, let her discover its not! Maybe a hard jerk on her reality chain will help. She wants out?, show her the door, but that leaves behind the SAHM life she's living. Tell her kids stay put, money stays put and you stay put...she best go find a job, an apartment, a very good attorney -- at her expense, and a brain she must've tossed in last Tuesday's trash. Some women are just so stupid. She definitely has self esteem issues based on her total makeover, probably on your dime. Offer to attend counseling. It'll be hard, but this **** needs to stop. Disrespectful!


----------



## Garry2012

The Cro-Magnon said:


> What happened to the OM?
> What happened to her affair?
> Did she continue it throughout the entirety of your painful, drawn out divorce process? Or did reality kill her affair, and MIL and FIL move in to fill the void of the dead affair, and "justify" her and validate her version of reality to boot?


I dont know what she did, she never turned over the gophone, and I stopped watching anything she was doing. Yes, her mother opted to "support" her by helping her deny everything and give her emotional and financial support.


----------



## Garry2012

They moved out Friday, then came back Saturday while i was coaching to take more...including alot of the food I bought....I guess they dont sell butter, chips, canned soup, cereal and pepper where they live. At first, I was very angry...how petty...but now, its a wonderful cherry on top of this experience, and REALLY shows what kind of people they are. Not only did you leave me for another man, tear our family apart etc, you had to steal the food I bought on your way out...CLASSY.

Sunday, I put on a basketball game, sat down and had a grilled steak, baked potatoe, and a nice salad (as I said i would).


----------



## Chuck71

Change the locks!

Obviously trash shows

but you're done with them High 5


----------



## livinfree

Chuck71 said:


> Change the locks!


Do it. You're not Self Storage.


----------



## Garry2012

I changed the alarm code and got the keys. I will change the locks as soon as i can. 

You know, its not a big monetary hit, but it really peaves me that they went out of their way to take ALL the kids clothes and ALOT of the toys, even the ones I bought. It's a deliberate attempt to make the kids stay at my house "less fun" then it will be at theirs. It is certainly not in the best interest of the kids either, which I thought we all had in mind...guess it was just me.


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> I changed the alarm code and got the keys. I will change the locks as soon as i can.
> 
> You know, its not a big monetary hit, but it really peaves me that they went out of their way to take ALL the kids clothes and ALOT of the toys, even the ones I bought. It's a deliberate attempt to make the kids stay at my house "less fun" then it will be at theirs. It is certainly not in the best interest of the kids either, which I thought we all had in mind...guess it was just me.


Na, don't let it get to you. This gives you an opportunity. Go shopping for their favorite things to do. So what if they have 2 sets? Also, you can buy them clothes just for your place. I would even tell your ex not to pack anything for them because you have it covered on your end. Send what she packs right back to her, untouched.

It sounds like a huge game but seriously, you are doing this to keep the aggravation down for yourself. It has nothing to do with her. My ex did this... kept all of my sons clothes at his house (things I packed didn't come back). So we went shopping!


----------



## Garry2012

Chuck71 said:


> This was done to you not the kids. Do not be shocked if your kids do not go to your ex's and bring those right back. A couple of your kids, I think, are at the age where they know the score (for most part).
> 
> I'm the type to get a point across very clear. Go to the discount barn and load up on canned foods, all off brand of course. Box them up and drop them off at the ex's place. Attach a note saying "It appears you were short on money, I thought I would help out." ............ grab a few boxes of douches just to add insult 8>)


Oh yeah, it was definately done to me...it, again, helps them feel like I am the bad person in all this. Love the food in a box idea....


----------



## john_lord_b3

OMG!



Garry2012 said:


> They moved out Friday, then came back Saturday while i was coaching to take more...including alot of the food I bought....I guess they dont sell butter, chips, canned soup, cereal and pepper where they live. At first, I was very angry...how petty...but now, its a wonderful cherry on top of this experience, and REALLY shows what kind of people they are. Not only did you leave me for another man, tear our family apart etc, you had to steal the food I bought on your way out...CLASSY...You know, its not a big monetary hit, but it really peaves me that they went out of their way to take ALL the kids clothes and ALOT of the toys, even the ones I bought. It's a deliberate attempt to make the kids stay at my house "less fun" then it will be at theirs. It is certainly not in the best interest of the kids either, which I thought we all had in mind...guess it was just me.


OMG, MashaAllah, Oy Vey Mir, Ya ampun!

They did that?!?

That was...ehh.. totally unacceptable behavior! *facepalm*


----------



## frozen

Might as well document the food theft for your next child support hearing. Something tells me you will be dealing with many more shenanigans.


----------



## happyman64

Garry

Maybe your Ex and her Mom had no food in the "trailer"?

As you can see, your Ex is still despicable....


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah...they are both pathetic....all the more reason to be glad they are gone!!


----------



## Garry2012

So, had a good first weekend with just me and the kids. I fed them REAL meals and we did lots of fun stuff. As expected, they didnt want to go back to their mothers house because "it's boring and she doesn't do anything with us". The best thing was that we seemed to bond alot...which was really good.


----------



## Garry2012

Been a while, so thought i would post an update:

sort of adjusting to the new schedule. X doesnt contact much, which is good, just about the kids. I am working out ALOT, trying to stay busy etc. Idle time seems to leave me thinking of the last 6 months, and just gets me angry again. 

Kids seem to be doing ok--thought the oldest still struggles. They repeatedly tell me they want to stay with me, but I tell them that they cant, and that they will be back soon enough.

hard to get used to the new lifestyle though.


----------



## Garry2012

Chuck71 said:


> Garry how are things going in the demonless house?


much quieter for sure.....just getting used to the new life i guess


----------



## Garry2012

Most frustrating I think is the fact that I am chained to her...through my kids. Chained to someone that frankly i despise, and moreover, i have to give her money. All her lies, cheating, manipulation to cover her affair, putting out kids through all this and i have to give her money, and live near her for the next 14 years....I feel like I received a jail sentence..so frustrating.


----------



## FlyingThePhoenix

Garry2012 said:


> Most frustrating I think is the fact that I am chained to her...through my kids. Chained to someone that frankly i despise, and moreover, i have to give her money. All her lies, cheating, manipulation to cover her affair, putting out kids through all this and i have to give her money, and live near her for the next 14 years....I feel like I received a jail sentence..so frustrating.


Why not morph into a completely different man, your kids will see it and they will describe their new dad to their mother. She will over the next 14 years regret the day she cheated on you and lied her way to her version of freedom.

One day society will wake up and demand that those that commit adultery be labelled for the rest of their lives as adulterers. There’s no jail time but once labelled they loose all rights of spousal support once the marriage ends in divorce.

At least your kids still love you!

Regards, FTP


----------



## dsGrazzl3D

FlyingThePhoenix said:


> One day society will wake up and demand that those that commit adultery be labelled for the rest of their lives as adulterers. There’s no jail time but once labelled they loose all rights of spousal support once the marriage ends in divorce.
> 
> At least your kids still love you!
> 
> Regards, FTP


I agree that marriage betrayal is horrible and very despicable. **BUT** I don't think 'society' will do anything to help marriages, nor help families grow healthy. After-all just look at Maury, before him it was Jenny Jones, pop cultural and our courts "hate" rolleyes to intervene with people's personal lives. (**SARCISM INSERTED HERE**). 

Seriously, thou' I hope that you can learn that forgiveness is a gift for you more so than for the guilty. Love can be forgiving, but it does have a friggin' great memory. I've heard it said before life is good and worth fighting for. I have to believe that you will grow from this. I hope that you teach your kids that marriage is a worthy institution. Let's hope that they gain the skills needed to learn from us & not have to go through this mess. 

On a lighter note I've heard it said that _'birth trauma'_ is the trauma we never get over. *Life is still good and worth living*, even when confronted with people whom brake vows and hurt us. Good Luck & keep updated.


----------



## Garry2012

I know...i sure do miss the old days of breaking up with an ex and being able to just walk away though .


----------



## FlyingThePhoenix

dsGrazzl3D said:


> I agree that marriage betrayal is horrible and very despicable. **BUT** I don't think 'society' will do anything to help marriages, nor help families grow healthy. After-all just look at *Maury*, before him it was *Jenny Jones, pop cultural and our courts "hate" rolleyes to intervene with people's personal lives. *(**SARCISM INSERTED HERE**).
> 
> *Sorry I live in UK and I don't know these shows, but the way you've described them sounds like the Jerry Springer type shows. If true, no wonder I stopped watching TV.*
> 
> Seriously, thou' I hope that you can learn that forgiveness is a gift for you more so than for the guilty. Love can be forgiving, but it does have a friggin' great memory. I've heard it said before life is good and worth fighting for. I have to believe that you will grow from this. I hope that you teach your kids that marriage is a worthy institution. Let's hope that they gain the skills needed to learn from us & not have to go through this mess.
> 
> *My, my words of wisdom. *
> 
> On a lighter note I've heard it said that _'birth trauma'_ is the trauma we never get over. *Life is still good and worth living*, even when confronted with people whom brake vows and hurt us. Good Luck & keep updated.


----------



## Garry2012

Very true. I have gone back and read, a few times....reminds me of where i was, and my journey. I was so lost when I started this thread. Now I am trying to get used to the kids sharing and single life again. So much better than house sharing with a MLC ex wife and her blindly supportive mother.


----------



## Garry2012

I hope so.... i really do.


----------



## FlyingThePhoenix

Garry2012 said:


> Very true. I have gone back and read, a few times....reminds me of where i was, and my journey. I was so lost when I started this thread. Now I am trying to get used to the kids sharing and single life again. So much better than house sharing with a MLC ex wife and her blindly supportive mother.


I don't think the ex-MIL is blind just ashamed that her daughter has just thrown away the only best man she'll ever meet. Don't worry in time she'll see this.

Are any of the other family members on your side? 
Do they even care what's going on?
What about your friends have they taken sides?


----------



## Woodchuck

Go over to coping with infidelity...You will see your story with a hundred sheets of carbon paper behind it....Textbook case.....Some get fixed, many don't....Damn social networking...

the woodchuck


----------



## Garry2012

FlyingThePhoenix said:


> I don't think the ex-MIL is blind just ashamed that her daughter has just thrown away the only best man she'll ever meet. Don't worry in time she'll see this.
> 
> Are any of the other family members on your side?
> Do they even care what's going on?
> What about your friends have they taken sides?


Yeah, the ex MIL is an interesting case indeed. I would love to just listen/watch her...she has at times agreed with me, then demonized me..she is VERY out of sorts trying to deal with all this...she claims to be a very devout christian, so her daughter having an affair and leaving her family is hard for her to process. 

As far as family, there is an uncle who is going through the SAME thing...except his ex was out in the open about her boyfriends. He understands obviously. There are a family of cousins who think that she is nuts...but for the most part the family has kept out of it all---partly because exMIL has told them to butt out...which should be a red flag to anyone with half a brain. 

Friends, well, she has friends that she has told her story, and I have mine who know the truth...so...mixed there.


----------



## Garry2012

Woodchuck said:


> Go over to coping with infidelity...You will see your story with a hundred sheets of carbon paper behind it....Textbook case.....Some get fixed, many don't....Damn social networking...
> 
> the woodchuck


Yeah, I realized that about a week into this whole deal. Like many have said, its a script they follow...same thing over and over again. 

Fixed...no..I dont want fixed...I think at this point, for me to be civil, I want her to crash and confess...then we can move on...her denial and continued lies is what keeps me angry--something I know i need to work on..because by the time that happens (if it ever happens) I dont want to even care about it...kinda an odd wish...I want her to do something that I hope I dont care if she does...haha.


----------



## FlyingThePhoenix

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah, the ex MIL is an interesting case indeed. I would love to just listen/watch her...she has at times agreed with me, then demonized me..she is VERY out of sorts trying to deal with all this...she claims to be a very devout christian, so her daughter having an affair and leaving her family is hard for her to process.
> 
> As far as family, there is an uncle who is going through the SAME thing...except his ex was out in the open about her boyfriends. He understands obviously. There are a family of cousins who think that she is nuts...but for the most part the family has kept out of it all---partly because exMIL has told them to butt out...which should be a red flag to anyone with half a brain.
> 
> Friends, well, she has friends that she has told her story, and I have mine who know the truth...so...mixed there.


In think in time your ex-MIL will see her daughter’s true colours and start resenting her for throwing away her marriage and not fighting for it. It’s strange how your ex wanted a new life, but in order for that to happen she needs her mother to have it. Very strange!

Just because the ex-MIL told the rest of the family to stay out, there is no harm in you keeping friendly relations with them; after all they are still family because of the kids. Your ex-MIL cannot stop you as she has hands full with her free loving adult (kind of..) daughter to deal with.

Friends that only want to hear one side of the story are not real friends in my book. Real friends are those that want to hear, read both sides of the story before making a judgement on who is the real friend.

How are the kids holding up?
Remind me how old they again?

Regards, FTP


----------



## Garry2012

So today and yesterday I go the opportunity to go to my daughters end of year party, and today her graduation from pre-k. These were both things that X would have gone too. Got me thinking...she left work 5 years ago to grow up with the kids, now because she needs to be free again, she is once again missing all events that happen m-f because of her work...and I am able to attend due flexability at my work...so i sent her pictures...partly to let her see...and partly as a reminder of "see what you USED to be able to attend when you were a SAHM?

exmil was supposed to go...but was a no-show....how nice...


----------



## Garry2012

FlyingThePhoenix said:


> In think in time your ex-MIL will see her daughter’s true colours and start resenting her for throwing away her marriage and not fighting for it. It’s strange how your ex wanted a new life, but in order for that to happen she needs her mother to have it. Very strange!
> 
> Just because the ex-MIL told the rest of the family to stay out, there is no harm in you keeping friendly relations with them; after all they are still family because of the kids. Your ex-MIL cannot stop you as she has hands full with her free loving adult (kind of..) daughter to deal with.
> 
> Friends that only want to hear one side of the story are not real friends in my book. Real friends are those that want to hear, read both sides of the story before making a judgement on who is the real friend.
> 
> How are the kids holding up?
> Remind me how old they again?
> 
> Regards, FTP


Kids are doing very well (11/9/4) 11 year old struggles the most as he is a daddy's boy. Youngest is a daddy's girl, but she doesnt comprehend all that is going on...she just knows that she has two houses now. MIddle boy wants to stay with me too, his friends are here, and I actually do stuff with them...but he seems ok going back and forth, for now.

Yeah, X really upgraded from me to her mother (whom previously would driver her NUTS after 5 days)--yes that does bring a smile to my face occationally. The kids have also hear exmil say she has had enough and is ready to go home...so the pressure of everything must be starting to hit some.--i smile again.

As for now the family is (i suppose rightfully) on her side based on the facts she has told them. But, it may get interesting when they go to the family reunion in August, she will certainly be the talk for that week, and with LOTS of alchohol mixed in (X historically gets sloppy drunk 1-3 days there) she may out herself--and there are a couple there that I know will push her to fess up to what really happened.


----------



## dsGrazzl3D

Garry2012 said:


> Kids are doing very well


Please keep on them & try to make sure if they need to talk or need help you have in open ear. They are the ones of whom will hurt the most, regardless of the blame. Still glad to hear they are good for now! 



Garry2012 said:


> <STBXW> family reunion in August, she will certainly be the talk for that week, and with LOTS of alchohol mixed in (X historically gets sloppy drunk 1-3 days there) she may out herself--and there are a couple there that I know will push her to fess up to what really happened.


Don't bet she will in drunken state remember history so clearly... I'm betting more so on her re-writing history of marriage for years to come...

She crawling back to you may happen, but... 
(IMHO, and like you said,) you'll already be re-married to wonderful woman _(of whom actually understands and can complete the whole marriage vows parts)_, and then she'll ask you to forgive her as you find out she's going thru divorce 4th time!?!? Years from now. So by that time kids are grown and happy for you and don't want to have much to do with mom <your ex> and her bf's... `Jus' my guess at how it may work out in time. 
<edit -2 sp>


----------



## Garry2012

dsGrazzl3D said:


> Please keep on them & try to make sure if they need to talk or need help you have in open ear. They are the ones of whom will hurt the most, regardless of the blame. Still glad to hear they are good for now!
> 
> 
> 
> Don't bet she will in drunken state remember history so clearly... I'm betting more so on her re-writing history of marriage for years to come...
> 
> She crawling back to you may happen, but...
> (IMHO, and like you said,) you'll already be re-married to wonderful woman _(of whom actually understands and can complete the whole marriage vows parts)_, and then she'll ask you to forgive her as you find out she's going thru divorce 4th time!?!? Years from now. So by that time kids are grown and happy for you and don't want to have much to do with mom <your ex> and her bf's... `Jus' my guess at how it may work out in time.
> <edit -2 sp>


No, I have learned not to expect ANYTHING...lol. She will certainly re-write...that I am sure of...but maybe on day 3-4 she will slip, or at least slip enough....

I would agree, that is a fair assessment of the direction it could take. Like Abitmuch said some time ago, it becomes more and more of a show, and less of a heartbreak as time goes on. Some days I still have the anger for all she has done to me, but mostly just happy to be in an empty, or only kid-filled house.


----------



## Garry2012

So, reading singles adds, I see women who have "great relationships with their exes" ... How can that be? I think my ex is such a scumbag, it's almost impossible to even co-parent with her at this point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Garry2012

So we had another good weekend. While we have good weekend together, the kids seem to mention several times that they dont want to go back, and Monday am the two oldest were almost in tears while dropping them off at school. Good thing is I will have them soon for 3 weeks, then another 3 weeks in late July through mid-August.


----------



## Garry2012

Oh yeah, she would call me a liar and would she would attack them too asking them "why are you telling your Dad that?!?!" and MOL would attack them too. I just have to keep the path and be the best i can be so that maybe someday they will just move in with me.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah, I STILL struggle with that part--I am the villian. 

Kids seem pretty well adjusted so far anyway. That has been huge.


----------



## turnera

Your kids see who you are and how you act. They will know the truth.


----------



## Garry2012

turnera said:


> Your kids see who you are and how you act. They will know the truth.


I hope so. I know my oldest hears all the poison my exmil is telling her family about me--he tells me. Drives me nuts me that she continues to bad mouth me so much. She has been complaining that i dont pay for the kid stuff now...uhh...thats what child support is for...heck, ,X makes more than i do now...has a nicer house, new furniture, and her mother is still buying alot, so she gets to use the child support for herself. Like I tell my kids, life just aint fair sometimes--but that done make it easy.


----------



## the guy

From were I'm sitting and if i remember correctly you came out ahead.
Is it correct to say that from what you said of exMIL the apple doesn't fall far from the tree with regards to your X?

Stay positive, the light you shine on your kids will not be forgoten, show your kids nothing but happiness and they will alway remember that from you.

And make no mistake they are bombbarded with negitivity so go the extra mile with them. they will learn that the in life there are lemons and there apples...you be the apple and they will graive you for the positive vibe you bring.

Its the ying and yang thing, phuck your MIL she is doing you a favor by teaching your kids what not to be, when you can show them what being happy is all about....I still think you came out a head..even if you were living in your car you got away from the emotional torture you had last years.


----------



## Garry2012

the guy said:


> From were I'm sitting and if i remember correctly you came out ahead.
> Is it correct to say that from what you said of exMIL the apple doesn't fall far from the tree with regards to your X?
> 
> Stay positive, the light you shine on your kids will not be forgoten, show your kids nothing but happiness and they will alway remember that from you.
> 
> And make no mistake they are bombbarded with negitivity so go the extra mile with them. they will learn that the in life there are lemons and there apples...you be the apple and they will graive you for the positive vibe you bring.
> 
> Its the ying and yang thing, phuck your MIL she is doing you a favor by teaching your kids what not to be, when you can show them what being happy is all about....I still think you came out a head..even if you were living in your car you got away from the emotional torture you had last years.


Yeah i do try to do extra stuff with them-meanwhile X is doing VERY little with them. In fact, my oldest had his last game on Saturday. She showed up at the beginning, in her workout attire, and halfway through said she had to leave. She went to the gym halfway through her sons game...how nice. He asked me where she was, I said I dont know, guess she had to leave.

It is def true that going home to a place where MOL and X are not there is a HUGE treat. Also, having the liberty to plan a dinner without them is great too. 

X has seemed, and continues to be lost as to the visitation schedule. Not only did she mediate it, but I also put it on a shared calender....and she STILL called me yesterday to see when i get the kids this week, and asking me if i get them for another 3 weeks in August...uhh....i HAD to send you an email as well to tell you the weeks. A couple of weeks ago my daughter had her preschool graduation--I think i had to tell her 6 times that i was going....


----------



## Chuck71

X still has that rescue card to play

next time she asks about co parenting plan

tell her you have them (when in truth she does)

what's the worst, you get the kiddos an extra week?

when she calls you out on it, tell her to refer to

the plan, SHE made up


----------



## Garry2012

The only thing she knows is how much and when her child support is due. 

rescue card in that I help her figure stuff out? I certainly dont want to rescue her anymore...should i tell her to go read? Then she just has another "he is an Ahole" moment.


----------



## A Bit Much

She knows the visitation schedule, she just doesn't care to follow it. You and her mother are doing the parenting. She's a 17 year old girl again.


----------



## Garry2012

A Bit Much said:


> She knows the visitation schedule, she just doesn't care to follow it. You and her mother are doing the parenting. She's a 17 year old girl again.


Yeah, boy this is a true statement- she doesnt seem to be parenting much at all. Im fine with her not following the visitation, as I will probably must get more time with them.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Wife's Midlife Crisis....what do i do?*



Garry2012 said:


> The only thing she knows is how much and when her child support is due.
> 
> rescue card in that I help her figure stuff out? I certainly dont want to rescue her anymore...should i tell her to go read? Then she just has another "he is an Ahole" moment.


Dude, you could rescue 12 puppies from a fire and cure cancer and you'd still be an ahole. Don't base any decisions on her opinions no matter how innocuous it may seem.


----------



## Garry2012

bfree said:


> Dude, you could rescue 12 puppies from a fire and cure cancer and you'd still be an ahole. Don't base any decisions on her opinions no matter how innocuous it may seem.


yeah....that is so true.


----------



## Garry2012

you know, i just need to vent before i send a nasty gram to X. 

My exmil has told my son times that i dont pay for enough. Yet, I pay her child support AND with that she makes more than i do! Not to mention that the MOL is paying for stuff, so its not even coming from the money i give her. Granted, i understand that i have to pay for stuff...but them trying to stick it too me just infuriates me. Once again...stick it to the "bad guy"


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> you know, i just need to vent before i send a nasty gram to X.
> 
> My exmil has told my son times that i dont pay for enough. Yet, I pay her child support AND with that she makes more than i do! Not to mention that the MOL is paying for stuff, so its not even coming from the money i give her. Granted, i understand that i have to pay for stuff...but them trying to stick it too me just infuriates me. Once again...stick it to the "bad guy"


Don't get caught up in that Garry. I totally understand your frustration... just take in what your son says and let it be. Unless you hear from your X directly of whatever problems she's having with you, it's hearsay. That's not to mean that your child is lying, but it's grown folks business. Don't make him the bad guy here, because she will know where your comments come from.


----------



## Garry2012

A Bit Much said:


> Don't get caught up in that Garry. I totally understand your frustration... just take in what your son says and let it be. Unless you hear from your X directly of whatever problems she's having with you, it's hearsay. That's not to mean that your child is lying, but it's grown folks business. Don't make him the bad guy here, because she will know where your comments come from.


I know, I am very aware that he will get caught up in it....and he is my biggest ally too. It all comes from MOL, she has been and continues to be the biggest problem now. X knows what she did, and I can deal with her better...MOL continues to stir the pot to protect her innocent girl from the horrible exhub. Thats why i needed to vent on here....before i expload in a text to X


----------



## A Bit Much

I remember having to bite my tongue nearly in half when I went through this with my ex. My son would tell me all kinds of sh!t he was saying about me, and 99% of it was complete BS. 

We get along better now that our son is grown and money isn't involved, but I still have to be the bigger person to facilitate a civil relationship. I figure this is my lot in life when it comes to him.


----------



## Garry2012

A Bit Much said:


> I remember having to bite my tongue nearly in half when I went through this with my ex. My son would tell me all kinds of sh!t he was saying about me, and 99% of it was complete BS.
> 
> We get along better now that our son is grown and money isn't involved, but I still have to be the bigger person to facilitate a civil relationship. I figure this is my lot in life when it comes to him.


yeah, so far i have to say she has been the more civil, I think because I am still so bitter and angry that she and her mother just covered up her affair and make me look like the bad guy...that irritates me to no end. Then they keep putting me down...so difficult to be civil at all....again..i stand to lose. She just wants it to be over...and doesnt engage...


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> I know, I am very aware that he will get caught up in it....and he is my biggest ally too. It all comes from MOL, she has been and continues to be the biggest problem now. X knows what she did, and I can deal with her better...MOL continues to stir the pot to protect her innocent girl from the horrible exhub. Thats why i needed to vent on here....before i expload in a text to X



She can't control what her mother says or does. Not in the least. You have to consider the source here. You're not dealing with a sane individual. The mother has her own agenda/issues going on, and all you have to do is look at her own life and marriage to see it.


----------



## Garry2012

A Bit Much said:


> She can't control what her mother says or does. Not in the least. You have to consider the source here. You're not dealing with a sane individual. The mother has her own agenda/issues going on, and all you have to do is look at her own life and marriage to see it.


True, but X did argue about paying for school supplies already...doesnt understand what the CS if for.

No your right, MOL is a mess in her own right...she abandonded her "christian" beliefs and morals to protect her wayward daughter. Her marriage is awful, and she is somewhat alienating herself from her own family with this whole deal. 

I do try to remember that it should come from X, but so hard not to lash out at her or MOL....feeling better though venting


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> True, but X did argue about paying for school supplies already...doesnt understand what the CS if for.
> 
> No your right, MOL is a mess in her own right...she abandonded her "christian" beliefs and morals to protect her wayward daughter. Her marriage is awful, and she is somewhat alienating herself from her own family with this whole deal.
> 
> I do try to remember that it should come from X, but so hard not to lash out at her or MOL....feeling better though venting


School supplies? 

Get the list and buy half of what's on it. Send the stuff with the kids and be done. I never bothered my ex about stuff like that, but if he offered it would have been nice and I would have accepted the help.

I get you feel she doesn't need it, but stuff for the kids is only about the kids. Don't make it about her. CS for me was always spent on living expenses and food... school stuff was extra.


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## Garry2012

Your right...the LAST thing i want to do is not give to my kids...


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## turnera

It will be easier if you have a list you both agree on, written out, that you each have a copy of to refer to.


----------



## A Bit Much

turnera said:


> It will be easier if you have a list you both agree on, written out, that you each have a copy of to refer to.


The school usually supplies a list (and some of the stores in the area also supply it), so he doesn't even have to talk with her about it.

He can buy what he wants off of it, put it in a bag and send it home with them. 

I don't see her being extremely cooperative and working with him on this. She's not an agreeable woman.


----------



## Garry2012

turnera said:


> It will be easier if you have a list you both agree on, written out, that you each have a copy of to refer to.


I guess i would be alot more sympathetic too if her mother wasnt there paying for everything. Heck, im wondering if i will have to file for bankruptcy/move/sell stuff, i dont go out to eat unless i have a coupon of some sort, but stuff off craigslist, and she is banking money. If I had the affair and caused all this, fine...but so not fair....guess thats how it goes...but still


----------



## turnera

A Bit Much said:


> The school usually supplies a list (and some of the stores in the area also supply it), so he doesn't even have to talk with her about it.
> 
> He can buy what he wants off of it, put it in a bag and send it home with them.
> 
> I don't see her being extremely cooperative and working with him on this. She's not an agreeable woman.


 Sorry, I meant a list of things in your son's life that you will split costs on, such as sports, school activities, presents to buy for others, etc.


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> I guess i would be alot more sympathetic too if her mother wasnt there paying for everything. Heck, im wondering if i will have to file for bankruptcy/move/sell stuff, i dont go out to eat unless i have a coupon of some sort, but stuff off craigslist, and she is banking money. If I had the affair and caused all this, fine...but so not fair....guess thats how it goes...but still


You gotta let it go. 

Keep reminding yourself its for your kids... anything you do outside of your obligation to her legally is for THEM.

No, it's not fair. She gets to spoil herself with your hard earned money, and not think of the children, but Garry your reward will come through those kids. You'll see.


----------



## Sanity

Emerald said:


> I am so sick of hearing about SAHM's complaining about their "boring" lives. I would have given anything to be able to stay home & raise by daughters instead of having to work full time.
> 
> Who financed all of her plastic surgery? Your wife is an entitled, ungrateful princess who is using you for your money & is not a good role model for your children.
> 
> Again, others will chime in about the cheating.....sigh....


Sad but true. A friend of mine's ex wife kept insisting on getting breast implants, tummy tuck and some other cosmetic surgery. It was all going to cost 15K and he was very close to getting a loan with his ex to pay for the procedures and then he finds that out that his wife was having mutiple affairs with three different men. We laugh about this now but at the time, imagine paying for some nice puppies and then another man gets to take them for a walk? A man's ego just can't process that and not be pissed.


----------



## Garry2012

A Bit Much said:


> You gotta let it go.
> 
> Keep reminding yourself its for your kids... anything you do outside of your obligation to her legally is for THEM.
> 
> No, it's not fair. She gets to spoil herself with your hard earned money, and not think of the children, but Garry your reward will come through those kids. You'll see.


I know...and that is generally how i view it...just chaps me every once in a while when i dont "give enough".


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> I know...and that is generally how i view it...just chaps me every once in a while when i dont "give enough".



Those are THEIR words and their words are FALSE.

Your skin is going to get thicker as the time passes. Let them lie on you. You know better. Your kids know better. That's all that matters.


----------



## Garry2012

Sanity said:


> Sad but true. A friend of mine's ex wife kept insisting on getting breast implants, tummy tuck and some other cosmetic surgery. It was all going to cost 15K and he was very close to getting a loan with his ex to pay for the procedures and then he finds that out that his wife was having mutiple affairs with three different men. We laugh about this now but at the time, imagine paying for some nice puppies and then another man gets to take them for a walk? A man's ego just can't process that and not be pissed.


yep...my x pulled it out of her 401k (which did cost me in the divorce). She got implants and tummy tuck about two years ago. AND she had a freak thing were both her arms were not usable at all after the surgery for about a week...so i took 100% care of her during that time-she was like a 95 yo woman, then as they slowly started to work over the next 5 months, i was there for emotional support and talking to drs. etc--still having to do things for her. she was a mess...

A year later she had a boyfriend and wanted out.


----------



## Garry2012

A Bit Much said:


> Those are THEIR words and their words are FALSE.
> 
> Your skin is going to get thicker as the time passes. Let them lie on you. You know better. Your kids know better. That's all that matters.


yeah, thats that part i need to move on from....caring about what her and her family think of me-I know who i am, and my kids do too. Just have to keep that in mind i guess.


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> yeah, thats that part i need to move on from....caring about what her and her family think of me-I know who i am, and my kids do too. Just have to keep that in mind i guess.


With time you'll feel better about all of it. It never really goes away, but it gets much easier to dismiss. She's getting off easy right now, but when they get older she'll catch hell for what she does or doesn't do now. The kids will remember everything. Everything she doesn't do, or things she says against you she will be held accountable for at some point.


----------



## Garry2012

A Bit Much said:


> With time you'll feel better about all of it. It never really goes away, but it gets much easier to dismiss. She's getting off easy right now, but when they get older she'll catch hell for what she does or doesn't do now. The kids will remember everything. Everything she doesn't do, or things she says against you she will be held accountable for at some point.


I suppose....some days i do feel like she is getting away with everything AND im paying for it.


----------



## Garry2012

So i had a weird experience this am. I have access to match.com but not quite at the point of putting a profile on there yet. Weekly i get pictures of women that are out there. Guess what, today, i saw my ex out there...MYfreedom13 was her profile name. Very odd feeling to see your exwife on a dating site...not as bad as i thought--but then again, she had a boyfriend while we were married. Funny too, the profile of what she is looking for describes me haha. I am curious about her name "myfreedom"...i suppose it freedom from a family for at least 50% of the time.


----------



## turnera

You ought to write that to her on that site. If it publishes comments, anyway.


----------



## Garry2012

turnera said:


> You ought to write that to her on that site. If it publishes comments, anyway.


Yeah...i ought to write "uh. you are looking for tall, fit and funny....that didnt work out--you need short, dull and chunky"


----------



## happyman64

WHat you should write is this:

"I wish you all the luck in the world My Freedom 13"

That says it all.

HM


----------



## Garry2012

i wonder if OM dropped her already....he was "in her head"....so why not just be with him?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Wife's Midlife Crisis....what do i do?*



Chuck71 said:


> he may have seen her true colors and ran like he!!


If so he may be a POS but at least he's not stupid.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah it very interesting indeed. I think its great..now she can see the wonderful world of dating! I thought i was at a huge disadvantage thinking she had already found her "one" to replace me. She can now start the process of seeing that maybe i wasnt so unlovable and "boring" afterall. lol

Remember he was separated and she offered to help him get to divorce by "splitting their a$$es up". So maybe he wasnt as willing to leave his wife just yet..and dropped her when reality kicked in and she started pushing for more time with him.


----------



## A Bit Much

If anything was going on with this guy she wouldn't have a match profile. He's no longer in the picture. She's onto other conquests, if they'll have her.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Wife's Midlife Crisis....what do i do?*



A Bit Much said:


> If anything was going on with this guy she wouldn't have a match profile. He's no longer in the picture. She's onto other conquests, if they'll have her.


Have her as in permanent? Ha. They might rent her for a night or two but beyond that...no way. Haven't you seen all the lovely ladies crying "where have all the good men gone?" Hate to break it to them but the good men don't want the bad women.


----------



## Garry2012

bfree said:


> Have her as in permanent? Ha. They might rent her for a night or two but beyond that...no way. Haven't you seen all the lovely ladies crying "where have all the good men gone?" Hate to break it to them but the good men don't want the bad women.


Yeah i told her that. She is really a beatiful woman, so they will rent her for sure--she has no shortage of attention. But so true....i have been talking to some women out there and yeah, there is a shortage of "good men" it seems like-AND she does NOT like the usual 40+ conservative kinda guys. 

Ok...so had an interesting morning--MOL (Mother Outlaw) has been texting me...the pressure of the tense relationship is getting to her. She is holding to the "logic" that God will punish her daughter IF what i say is true...but that she will love her daughter. 

I, of course, cant let this illogical arguement just pass me by. I say, well of course you love her...and always will..but that doesnt mean you condone everything that she does either. You made it as easy as possible for her to walk out on her family--no MC, no stress..just support. If she committed murder would you cover it up and say "God will handle it" i dont think so, or at least its not the right thing to do. Look my mother was an alchoholic, that didnt mean i didnt love her. But i certainly didnt make booze runs for her or support her habit in any way.

She is just so lost...unable to mentally or spiritially handle the whole thing. I told her to talk to her pastor, he can help her handle the situation.


----------



## A Bit Much

bfree said:


> Have her as in permanent? Ha. They might rent her for a night or two but beyond that...no way. Haven't you seen all the lovely ladies crying "where have all the good men gone?" Hate to break it to them but the good men don't want the bad women.


Oh I didn't mean to imply she would be a permanent fixture in some guys life.

No offense to match, but most everyone I know that goes that route isn't trying to do anything but hook up. There are the few that manage to meet and make it to the LTR stage, but they are rare.


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah i told her that. She is really a beatiful woman, so they will rent her for sure--she has no shortage of attention. But so true....i have been talking to some women out there and yeah, there is a shortage of "good men" it seems like-AND she does NOT like the usual 40+ conservative kinda guys.
> 
> Ok...so had an interesting morning--MOL (Mother Outlaw) has been texting me...the pressure of the tense relationship is getting to her. She is holding to the "logic" that God will punish her daughter IF what i say is true...but that she will love her daughter.
> 
> I, of course, cant let this illogical arguement just pass me by. I say, well of course you love her...and always will..but that doesnt mean you condone everything that she does either. You made it as easy as possible for her to walk out on her family--no MC, no stress..just support. If she committed murder would you cover it up and say "God will handle it" i dont think so, or at least its not the right thing to do. Look my mother was an alchoholic, that didnt mean i didnt love her. But i certainly didnt make booze runs for her or support her habit in any way.
> 
> She is just so lost...unable to mentally or spiritially handle the whole thing. I told her to talk to her pastor, he can help her handle the situation.


Your ex MIL needs to put a sock in it. NOW she wants to chat with you? It's too late for that.

Telling it to the preacher man is the best she can do.


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## Garry2012

Yeah really...MOL was just too weak to handle it...she half admitted that today...she was blindsided by the whole deal.

So now X calls (i had just asked her for $50) to cover her half of the cell bill. She goes into a total tirade about me being a jerk etc., then of course we get into it...just wanted the $50 bucks.

So she said she has this "list" of all these things i have done wrong....where did this list come from? why all of a sudden now? where was the list when we she first wanted out? I would have used them then to justify her actions...now? All she had in October was 1) i dont love her and 2) i hurt her 17 years ago...but now there is a list? Guess she has come to the conclusion that she had nothing...so put a list together..


----------



## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah really...MOL was just too weak to handle it...she half admitted that today...she was blindsided by the whole deal.
> 
> So now X calls (i had just asked her for $50) to cover her half of the cell bill. She goes into a total tirade about me being a jerk etc., then of course we get into it...just wanted the $50 bucks.
> 
> So she said she has this "list" of all these things i have done wrong....where did this list come from? why all of a sudden now? where was the list when we she first wanted out? I would have used them then to justify her actions...now? All she had in October was 1) i dont love her and 2) i hurt her 17 years ago...but now there is a list? Guess she has come to the conclusion that she had nothing...so put a list together..


You can't delete her off the cell account? I would. Not worth the headache.

And her game is deflection. She's unhappy, so anything YOU want will be used to beat you over the head with. Limit your conversations to the kids, and the kids ONLY. You involve her with anything else, you open yourself up to getting jumped on.


----------



## Garry2012

A Bit Much said:


> You can't delete her off the cell account? I would. Not worth the headache.
> 
> And her game is deflection. She's unhappy, so anything YOU want will be used to beat you over the head with. Limit your conversations to the kids, and the kids ONLY. You involve her with anything else, you open yourself up to getting jumped on.


Yeah I usually do...but this time i actually had a little fun with it...I told her i was sorry her and her BF broke up...she was like "what are you talking about? yeah we broke up!!! whatever!" lol...I told her "inside joke" lol

I bought the phone for her birthday a year and a half ago, on my account...Ill talk to the phone people and see what my options are.


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## Garry2012

Lol.... no way lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FlyingThePhoenix

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah really...MOL was just too weak to handle it...she half admitted that today...she was blindsided by the whole deal.
> 
> So now X calls (i had just asked her for $50) to cover her half of the cell bill. She goes into a total tirade about me being a jerk etc., then of course we get into it...just wanted the $50 bucks.
> 
> So she said she has this "list" of all these things i have done wrong....where did this list come from? why all of a sudden now? where was the list when we she first wanted out? I would have used them then to justify her actions...now? All she had in October was 1) i dont love her and 2) i hurt her 17 years ago...but now there is a list? Guess she has come to the conclusion that she had nothing...so put a list together..


Your xMIL has taken the *"reality pill"*, but than she was always going to take it first. Now she has, your X knows this she's made a "list" of your problems after the fact - Brilliant... Why don't you make your own "list" of things she has done wrong and send it back, with love and best wish's for the future . Don't let her words get to you. She's starting to reach out, I think she's starting to miss YOU!

*Q.* If your X did want to come back NOW, after everything she has done and said to you. Would you take her back?


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## Garry2012

It used to be when we had a fight like that, I would be up all night...I slept fine last night. I dont think she misses me just yet....but would I take her back? A resounding NO. I have started a daily journal to document my struggles etc and put my thought down. For several reasons... one is to remember my journey so when she comes back, I can see the dark road I walked down and say no way am I going down that road with her again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

FlyingThePhoenix said:


> Why don't you make your own "list" of things she has done wrong and send it back, with love and best wishes for the future .


Ooh, LOVE IT! And cc her mom!


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## Garry2012

It is nice to see THEM showing, even if just a bit, some cracking under the strain of it all. I just may enjoy the ride for a while..get some popcorn and watch the show until i have something better to do.


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## FlyingThePhoenix

turnera said:


> Ooh, LOVE IT! And cc her mom!


Turnera, I always knew you had that "Flower Power" mojo.., Gary just do it.... 



Garry2012 said:


> It is nice to see THEM showing, even if just a bit, some cracking under the strain of it all. I just may enjoy the ride for a while..get some popcorn and watch the show until i have something better to do.


Excuse me, where's the bear, hey? I'm mean really Gary.., come on, enjoy this moment.

Here own these sage words:


> Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth - Buddha


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## Garry2012

so...daughters 5th birthday tomorrow. I thought we were having two parties--daughter was ok with that. X now wants her (and her mother) to come to the party i was going to have. This would be miserable for me. What do I do...tell her no have your own deal, tell her only you can come not your mother, or suck it up and do it?


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## turnera

You won't be having joint parties moving forward. Why do it now?


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## LostViking

If you can, rent two hours at one of those jumpy gym places. All you need to do is bring a cake and order a pizza and the personnel there will do all the work. 

That saves you the stress of planning and doing. 

You can enjoy your daughter and her friends as they entertain themselves bouncing blissfully, and you can ignore your STBXW as she sits in a corner texting her idiot friends and OMs.


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## happyman64

Why not have one party, make sure she kicks in for it.

And you be awesome.

Remember it is is your kids b'day and remind your Ex of that too.


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## Garry2012

turnera said:


> You won't be having joint parties moving forward. Why do it now?


Frankly if it was JUST her it would be more palatable. But MOL comes too...instantly 2 on 1 again. It will ruin the night for me, i cant stand to be in a room with her or her mother. I agree, we are not a family anymore, all my kids know birthdays are now two events, not one. 

Yet, like happyman said, let her see what she divorced if i can pull if off....

Its not a kid party, was just me and the boys at Chucky Cheese...and dinner. She didnt want a kid party...

I dunno..if i say no, im the jerk who is "not being mature" about co-parenting. If i say ok, it is maybe giving the kids the wrong idea about us as a family and setting up a bad and unrealistic birthday plan for the future.


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## turnera

Uh, when are you going to stop making your choices based on what people think of you? Especially people who stomp all over you?

Teach your kid a better model.


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## livinfree

turnera said:


> when are you going to stop making your choices based on what people think of you?


QTF. First step to independent manhood.


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## Dad&Hubby

Garry2012 said:


> Frankly if it was JUST her it would be more palatable. But MOL comes too...instantly 2 on 1 again. It will ruin the night for me, i cant stand to be in a room with her or her mother. I agree, we are not a family anymore, all my kids know birthdays are now two events, not one.
> 
> Yet, like happyman said, let her see what she divorced if i can pull if off....
> 
> Its not a kid party, was just me and the boys at Chucky Cheese...and dinner. She didnt want a kid party...
> 
> I dunno..if i say no, im the jerk who is "not being mature" about co-parenting. If i say ok, it is maybe giving the kids the wrong idea about us as a family and setting up a bad and unrealistic birthday plan for the future.


So basically, you're taking your daughter out for her birthday. 

I'd tell your xwife just that.

Sorry, I'm taking them out, it's not a party, this is my time with them.

This is just her way of trying to butt in and control your stuff still. She needs some more wake up calls.


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## Garry2012

turnera said:


> Uh, when are you going to stop making your choices based on what people think of you? Especially people who stomp all over you?
> 
> Teach your kid a better model.


Well, its not that i care what they think of me, but we do have 14 years of shared birthdays. So if im a jerk now, she will stiff me when its my two boys parties. 

As a peace token, i am leaning to saying--why dont you just have the party with her on Thursday, I will celebrate with her on Friday, but that means I get to take one of the boys to dinner on their actual birthday as a trade off. Based on her schedule, she will not see my daughter at all on her actual birthday--which is why i suspect she is pushing for this.


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## Garry2012

How does this sound:

"we are no longer a family. While we could avoid fighting, there is too much tension and it will negatively effect the atmosphere. It also set unrealistic expectations for future birthdays. Its better if we do our own celebrations with the kids. If you feel compelled to have dinner with her on her actual birthday, I will hold mine afterwards...however, I would expect the opportunity to hold my birthday celebration for the boys on their actual day-for fairness."


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## FlyingThePhoenix

Garry2012 said:


> How does this sound:
> 
> "we are no longer a family. While we could avoid fighting, there is too much tension and it will negatively effect the atmosphere. It also set unrealistic expectations for future birthdays. Its better if we do our own celebrations with the kids. If you feel compelled to have dinner with her on her actual birthday, I will hold mine afterwards...however, I would expect the opportunity to hold my birthday celebration for the boys on their actual day-for fairness."


I like IT! But, just remember that birthday's come once a year. Don't you think you could make an exception on birthdays? Remember the kids are still young 4, 9 and 11 so there will be birthdays until they are old enough fly the nest. Any other situation where you and your Ex need to come together for the kids can be arranged as co-parents, like who takes them on holidays, the school run etc... Those situations only require one of you, unless it's an emergency.

Birthdays is the one time of the year I think you should come together, as it will show your Ex and her MIL that you are no longer in their lives and they are no longer in yours, but YOU are being the best father to the kids in front of them. How can they possibly find any logically reason to fault you here?


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## Garry2012

Prob true...but they have faulted me for almost everything. It would just put a cloud over the whole thing...its just too awkward....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FlyingThePhoenix

Garry2012 said:


> Prob true...but they have faulted me for almost everything. It would just put a cloud over the whole thing...its just too awkward....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly and they are going to find fault with you no matter what you do. The one place they can't do it is in front of your kids now you're divorced. Your MIL has already taken the reality pill and your Ex will follow soon. Show them and your kids you are moving forward without your Ex / MIL. This will be the first birthdays as a divorced father right? 

You're also forgetting you are in charge here NOT them. You set the ground rules during the birthday event to both of them. You are ALL for there for the kids, and not to discuss anything else. You have to stand up to those two one day, the sooner the better. Your a MAN and a FATHER not a HUSBAND or SON IN LAW anymore, you no longer have to put up with their bull sh1t anymore!

MORPH into a different MAN, you'll still be a FATHER for the rest of your life and your kids lives, no one can EVER take that away from you! Remember the MAN comes before the FATHER, together they define who you are from now on.


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## Garry2012

Well, sent the text...after 2 hours i sent another text to her saying I would like to know what she plans to do, as i need to plan accordingly. Two hours later, close to 11pm, she said she will take her on Friday. 

I feel good about putting my foot down. I think letting her join in would have let her think she can still do as she wants, when she wants. I feel good about it. The kids were ok with it,the two party process is what i have been tellinng them to expect anyway...so they seem ok with it.


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## Garry2012

Chuck71 said:


> hard to treat someone you once built your life around
> 
> like just another person
> 
> but she made the choice
> 
> cause........effect


It is..but I think this was a good step. She came to me a day before and wanted to crash my party. The easy step is to say sure...lets do what we always did. I feel stronger today..i didnt cave to her wishes, and it didnt impact he kids as far as i can tell..it was what they were expecting. She texted me today asking me to make sure my daughter had her glasses on...used a please and a thank you..maybe its me, she seems a bit beatdown, but maybe its a small small does of reality.


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## FlyingThePhoenix

Garry2012 said:


> Well, sent the text...after 2 hours i sent another text to her saying I would like to know what she plans to do, as i need to plan accordingly. Two hours later, close to 11pm, she said she will take her on Friday.
> 
> I feel good about putting my foot down. I think letting her join in would have let her think she can still do as she wants, when she wants. I feel good about it. The kids were ok with it,the two party process is what i have been tellinng them to expect anyway...so they seem ok with it.


Good for you! As long as you're in charge, and the kids all know it's two parties for each for them every year. OMG! That's 6 parties between them, half a year of parties. I feel your kids pain....HA-HA-HA!


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## turnera

There's a picture on my kitchen wall
Looks like Jesus and His friends involved
There's a party getting started in the yard
And there's a couple getting steamy in the car, parked in the drive
Was I too young to see this with my eyes?
And by the pool that night, apparently
The chemicals weren't mixed properly
You hit your head and then forgot your name
Then you woke up at the bottom by the drain
And now your altitude and memory's a shame
What about taking this empty cup and filling it up
With a little bit more of innocence, I haven't had enough
It's probably because when you're young
It's okay to be easily ignored
I'd like to believe it was all about love for a child +
When the house was left in shambles
Who was there to handle all the broken bits of glass
Was it mom who put my dad out on his ass or the other way around?
Well, I'm far too old to care about that now
What about taking this empty cup and filling it up
With a little bit more of innocence, I haven't had enough
It's probably because when you're young
It's okay to be easily ignored
I'd like to believe it was all about love for a child
It's kinda nice to work the floor since the divorce
I've been enjoying both my Christmases and my birthday cakes
And taking drugs and making love at far too young an age
And they never checked to see my grades
What a fool I'd be to start complaining now
What about taking this empty cup and filling it up
With a little bit more of innocence, I haven't had enough
It's probably because when you're young
It's okay to be easily ignored
I'd love to believe it was all about love for a child
It was all about love

JASON MRAZ - LOVE FOR A CHILD


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## happyman64

Garry2012 said:


> It is..but I think this was a good step. She came to me a day before and wanted to crash my party. The easy step is to say sure...lets do what we always did. I feel stronger today..i didnt cave to her wishes, and it didnt impact he kids as far as i can tell..it was what they were expecting. She texted me today asking me to make sure my daughter had her glasses on...used a please and a thank you..maybe its me, she seems a bit beatdown, but maybe its a small small does of reality.


Reality can be powerful Garry. 

More power to you in the future.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Garry2012

My goal is to so far removed when she crashes that I can state the facts and walk away.


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## Garry2012

turnera said:


> There's a picture on my kitchen wall
> Looks like Jesus and His friends involved
> There's a party getting started in the yard
> And there's a couple getting steamy in the car, parked in the drive
> Was I too young to see this with my eyes?
> And by the pool that night, apparently
> The chemicals weren't mixed properly
> You hit your head and then forgot your name
> Then you woke up at the bottom by the drain
> And now your altitude and memory's a shame
> What about taking this empty cup and filling it up
> With a little bit more of innocence, I haven't had enough
> It's probably because when you're young
> It's okay to be easily ignored
> I'd like to believe it was all about love for a child +
> When the house was left in shambles
> Who was there to handle all the broken bits of glass
> Was it mom who put my dad out on his ass or the other way around?
> Well, I'm far too old to care about that now
> What about taking this empty cup and filling it up
> With a little bit more of innocence, I haven't had enough
> It's probably because when you're young
> It's okay to be easily ignored
> I'd like to believe it was all about love for a child
> It's kinda nice to work the floor since the divorce
> I've been enjoying both my Christmases and my birthday cakes
> And taking drugs and making love at far too young an age
> And they never checked to see my grades
> What a fool I'd be to start complaining now
> What about taking this empty cup and filling it up
> With a little bit more of innocence, I haven't had enough
> It's probably because when you're young
> It's okay to be easily ignored
> I'd love to believe it was all about love for a child
> It was all about love
> 
> JASON MRAZ - LOVE FOR A CHILD


I dont want them to EVER be ignored...they are and need to know that the are the center of my life..because it IS about the Love for a child.


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## turnera

Agreed. Just thought it was a good insight into the minds of divorced kids.


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## Garry2012

turnera said:


> Agreed. Just thought it was a good insight into the minds of divorced kids.


It may be my biggest fear. My kids need me more than ever...in their faces, in their hearts. Taking care of them, making sure they know they have me for anything, that I love them with everything...do they know? I feel their pain daily, and hope they arent feeling what i prob would if i were them-maybe their smiles are hiding what they feel. Am i doing enough to get to those thoughts? and help them.

I know we hug more, we say "i love you more", i make a very concerted effort to tell them several times a day with hugs. To me its just isnt enough.


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## turnera

Just being aware of that puts you far ahead of lots of parents. Remember, the thing kids want most is to be WANTED.


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## Garry2012

turnera said:


> Just being aware of that puts you far ahead of lots of parents. Remember, the thing kids want most is to be WANTED.


Yeah...it hit me when, despite most of their toys being at their moms house, they want to be with me..why? I actually DO stuff with them...THAT is what they want--I dont want to be the "cat in the cradle" dad.


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## weightlifter

She went from Walmart Greeter apps to making MORE than you?

Was the ex BF a genie?
Did you ever learn who it was?

Read the thread. Sad really.


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## Garry2012

No, ex was a SAHM. Withe CS and her job, not to mention her mothers support, she makes more than i do. 

BF is gone i think...she has a profile out on Match.com...it is sad it many ways. I have thought from the beginning, this is all a mistake....we were better than this. But, maybe everyone says that. I have thought we threw it all away, changed our kids lives forever for her just to see what else is out there..to try to find the happiness she cant find in herself. Just leaves you shaking your head.


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## weightlifter

Was just odd that early one she was applying for ANYTHING then ends up making MORE than you.


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## Garry2012

Yeah...she was literally applying for minimum wage jobs. I talked her out of it, so she got a cecent job. But with child support/divorce being the wonderfully unfair process it is, she gets a chunk of my salary post tax as well. NOT to mention, she most likely will apply for a job in my office, and will make 50% more....as her friend is the hiring manager....good times.


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## Garry2012

so, i offered her to keep the kids for tonight. Nice gesture i thought..and maybe she will allow the same in july. 

X -, "its up to you"...

G- well i offered, so let me know. If you dont want them, feel free to drop them off, i always like having them.

X- i didnt say i didnt want them 

G-Just let me know, not debating a simple offer

x I am not debating Garry, yes plan on them staying

G: a "that would be nice" was all that was needed

x: stop trying to fight with me....

G: Exactly, i had a simple offer...i dont fight anymore--waste of time.



I thought it would just be a simple "sure thanks"


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## turnera

Plain old defensiveness and expecting you to rub her face in it.


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## Garry2012

She is defensive/unhappy about everything..but rub what in her face...the divorce?


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## turnera

Being defensive (after what she's done) means that she is just WAITING for you or someone else to try to say 'see, you're a beyotch, and this just proves it.' Such people often lash out first, to keep you on your toes, so you don't have time or energy to focus on HER.


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## Garry2012

I suppose...she could be bitter about being left out of the birthday party too.

Her mother at one point told me she seems very edgy and snaps alot...i suppose that may get worse...something i need to learn to deal with calmly and cooly...working on that and getting better. I didnt "bite" on this last one...stayed emotionally out of it...for my sake.


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## weightlifter

She may be finding the dating field not so tilted in her favor any more.

She was in her 20s when she was last truly available for dating. Yea i looked. She IS pretty... For a 43 year old. When she was in her 20s she had a big advantage. Now. Lots of the men in her dating pool just want poon not a relationship with poon, just poon.


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## Garry2012

I saw her outthere....she has a lot of competition here too. Boob jobs are a time a dozen...and since shewas overweight most of her life, she is very insecure about her body.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IceQueen

weightlifter said:


> She may be finding the dating field not so tilted in her favor any more.
> 
> She was in her 20s when she was last truly available for dating. Yea i looked. She IS pretty... For a 43 year old. When she was in her 20s she had a big advantage. Now. Lots of the men in her dating pool just want poon not a relationship with poon, just poon.



I think it is MUCH harder to date when you get older. I have seen that men her age who are in the dating pool usually will date much younger women. More then just looks, i think what they find is that a younger woman generally doesn't have as much baggage a woman her age who has an ex and is still caring for young children. 

Also she may find that men her age also may have baggage themselves. Ex-wives, kids of their own. 

It is MUCH harder at 43 then is is at 23. You can no longer be care-free.


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## weightlifter

IceQueen said:


> It is MUCH harder at 43 then is is at 23. You can no longer be care-free.


She did her best to try to be care free.


----------



## IceQueen

Garry2012 said:


> I saw her outthere....she has a lot of competition here too. Boob jobs are a time a dozen...and since shewas overweight most of her life, she is very insecure about her body.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't take this the wrong way, I am saying this as a person who has gone through 1 painful divorce myself. 

The best thing that you can do for yourself is to truly stop caring about her and start caring for yourself. In that I mean that you should not care whether she finds or doesn't find anyone, it doesnt really matter to you either way. I know easier said then done.


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## Garry2012

No, your right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Garry2012

So after a week of crying at the drop of a hat, my oldest had a cryfest last night about the divorce, not understanding why since we got alo g so well, and scared of future holidays without us. Truly a heartbreaking talk...all he wants is one family again like we used to have. Itried to help him uunderstand, make sure he knows I will always be here for him and that I like him talking to me about all this. It was a good bonding night I think...but still tough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Garry2012 said:


> No, ex was a SAHM. Withe CS and her job, not to mention her mothers support, she makes more than i do.
> 
> BF is gone i think...she has a profile out on Match.com...it is sad it many ways. I have thought from the beginning, this is all a mistake....we were better than this. But, maybe everyone says that. I have thought we threw it all away, changed our kids lives forever for her just to see what else is out there..to try to find the happiness she cant find in herself. Just leaves you shaking your head.


It leaves many shaking their head Garry.

Not only because their spouse is so unhappy with themselves but the fact that they have to make such drastic changes to the their relationships and families in order to find themselves.

Many spouses and kids are just collateral damage.

:scratchhead:


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## tom67

happyman64 said:


> It leaves many shaking their head Garry.
> 
> Not only because their spouse is so unhappy with themselves but the fact that they have to make such drastic changes to the their relationships and families in order to find themselves.
> 
> Many spouses and kids are just collateral damage.
> 
> :scratchhead:


And by the time they realize it it's usually too late because the other person has moved on, sad.


----------



## Garry2012

Hopefully I was able to create a stronger bond with him....he seems to not get any support like that from x and certainly mol...all mol says is "God wants us happy and knows best".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nishi_25

Garry2012 said:


> Ok, where do i start. I have been married for 13 years. My wife and i have had a very loving relationship up until the last couple of years. She turned 40, and was vocally upset by getting "old" saying "i only have 10 years of looking good left". Since then she has changed her clothing some, had a boob job and tummy tuck, got collagen in her lips and face etc. Then she opened up a facebook account and started flirting openly. We have fought alot about that since she opened it. Since i have confronted her with the flirting, just just hid it all, and added an instant messenger to her account. She became "best friends" with a married male, and they have spent numerous hours on the phone, though she has recently said they dont talk much, there were times when they talked for alot (6 hours over two weeks). she has also lightly flirted with him in front of me. In the last year, she has been depressed, complaining alot about the daily "grind" of taking care of the kids, not getting out to do anything (she is a stay at home mom)--often saying that she is jealous of her friend who has a husband who doesnt care where she is, and no kids at home so her friend can do whatever she wants. Last year, she started texting a single guy, including on Xmas morning while I was playing with the kids and setting up their toys. I later confronted her over a conversation where her female best friend said "something is so going to happen between you two" (of the single man). She says that was nothing and i am just overly jealous and controlling. Yet, another warning sign, and she continued to text him for another few months. So, this year, in July, something snapped, we just stopped talking for a couple weeks, and when i confronted her, she laid into me about never loving her, and specifically saying that when we broke up (by letter--my bad) 15 years ago when we were dating, it really hurt her and now, after 13 years of marriage, she wants to separate. She refuses to see any counceling,or admit that this is a MLC, i tell her i love her and this is hearbreaking and she basically says she is sad, but needs to get away. I dont think she has any good reason so leave, but do have a theory. My theory is that she has been flirting on facebook, and the guys have been hitting on her alot, and she wants to live like she is 25 again. I represent nothing more than a boring life, and she wants more. I am not sure if she is/has cheated, but did notice two notes that she had: one was a grocery list with KY listed (im sure she will say it was some sort of moisture issue), and a gophone activation number (seems to be hiding communication again). I am contemplating just filing for divorce--I cant change the past, and after 13 years of a loving relationship, cant imagine any way to convince her that i do love her at this point. Advice?


Leave her youyou deserve better. As a young woman myself, this behavior is horrible. She's trying to show I that she wants to be young and beautiful. And that she doesn't feel loved for some reason. This won't end. You deserve better
.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Garry2012

Yeah...its exactly what she is doing. 

So thus tuesday is my court appearance....the court will make thw divorce final....yeah it freaks me out a little.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

You'll be glad once it's over.


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## Garry2012

I guess so. 

My first three weeks with my kids ended a couple hours ago. We had a lot of fun, movie nights, swimming etc. Its hard to go back to and empty house again. I am already looking forward to my next 3 wks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

One thing I've heard from dads who become divorced who speak like you - can't bare to be away from their kids - is that, after a while, they grow to be ok with it because the breaks become useful for them to regroup, refresh, take care of themselves, and be able to then focus on their kids when they DO have them. Note I'm not talking about being a Disney Dad, but rather just paying attention to their kids, doing normal home stuff together, turning off the tv and enjoying each other. And kids love that more than anything.


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## Garry2012

turnera said:


> One thing I've heard from dads who become divorced who speak like you - can't bare to be away from their kids - is that, after a while, they grow to be ok with it because the breaks become useful for them to regroup, refresh, take care of themselves, and be able to then focus on their kids when they DO have them. Note I'm not talking about being a Disney Dad, but rather just paying attention to their kids, doing normal home stuff together, turning off the tv and enjoying each other. And kids love that more than anything.


I agree. I have noticed that we have more fun now when together. I appreciate them alot more, do more things for them not just to give them more due to the divorce, but because its spending good time with them. I suppose it does allow me some down time, whether i want it or not. I know it would be hard for me to have them full time...but its hard to not see them everyday too. We bonded pretty good over the last 3 weeks.


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## turnera

Heck, with today's technology, you can be bonding electronically 10 times a day. 

I assume you have Skype set up, right?


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## Garry2012

turnera said:


> Heck, with today's technology, you can be bonding electronically 10 times a day.
> 
> I assume you have Skype set up, right?


Not yet, I need to buy them a phone or get my old phone fixed for them. X wont contribute to any phone for them, and hasnt bought a laptop (but can buy an eliptical for herself--nothing has changed).


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## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> Not yet, I need to buy them a phone or get my old phone fixed for them. X wont contribute to any phone for them, and hasnt bought a laptop (but can buy an eliptical for herself--nothing has changed).


At some point you need to stop expecting her to do anything that would be considered a help to you. She's not going to do extra for the kids, she hasn't in months. When you think they need something, then you have to make it happen and not wait on her to make a decision. If you think they should have a laptop or phone to keep in touch with you more, then you need to provide them with it.

Garry you are a single parent. She is the egg donor at this point. Keep thinking of her on these terms and if she DOES voluntarily 'show up' then great. Stop expecting it.


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## Garry2012

A Bit Much said:


> At some point you need to stop expecting her to do anything that would be considered a help to you. She's not going to do extra for the kids, she hasn't in months. When you think they need something, then you have to make it happen and not wait on her to make a decision. If you think they should have a laptop or phone to keep in touch with you more, then you need to provide them with it.
> 
> Garry you are a single parent. She is the egg donor at this point. Keep thinking of her on these terms and if she DOES voluntarily 'show up' then great. Stop expecting it.


I know...I dont expect her to do anything for me. I completely view myself as a single parent, and I think that role will continue to grow. I think it more that, while i have predicted her to become even more focused on herself and less on the kids, it still amazes and dissapoints me...for their sake.


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## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> I know...I dont expect her to do anything for me. I completely view myself as a single parent, and I think that role will continue to grow. I think it more that, while i have predicted her to become even more focused on herself and less on the kids, it still amazes and dissapoints me...for their sake.


Put nothing past her. She's not who you married by any stretch of the imagination.

People can and do change over time. She's changed into someone you would never have settled down with in the beginning. Whatever it was that sent her in this direction has turned her into a virtual stranger to you, so you have to think of her that way. No more disappointments. No expectations means no more disappointments. You don't know her anymore.


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## Garry2012

A Bit Much said:


> Put nothing past her. She's not who you married by any stretch of the imagination.
> 
> People can and do change over time. She's changed into someone you would never have settled down with in the beginning. Whatever it was that sent her in this direction has turned her into a virtual stranger to you, so you have to think of her that way. No more disappointments. No expectations means no more disappointments. You don't know her anymore.


Oh i know...i have learned that the hard way..she has done things to me already that I would never have imagined. I see the dissapointments with the kids...so it will always bother me..even though i know it just benefits me.


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## A Bit Much

Garry2012 said:


> Oh i know...i have learned that the hard way..she has done things to me already that I would never have imagined. I see the dissapointments with the kids...so it will always bother me..even though i know it just benefits me.


Sadly the kids have to suffer the brunt of her nonsense. It's a shame she can't see that or care about that... hell if she did you two would still be together. Whatever problems you two were having could have been worked out through counseling. She chose to bail on you instead and in turn bail on them too.

I don't advocate staying married for the kids, but the separation should not cause them to suffer needlessly. You both should be parenting them and loving them through this. Being civil for their sake is the best thing you can do for them. What you cannot do is expect her to feel the way you do or manage her end the way you do. She's an individual who is making very selfish choices right now, and that may not ever change.


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## Garry2012

A Bit Much said:


> Sadly the kids have to suffer the brunt of her nonsense. It's a shame she can't see that or care about that... hell if she did you two would still be together. Whatever problems you two were having could have been worked out through counseling. She chose to bail on you instead and in turn bail on them too.
> 
> I don't advocate staying married for the kids, but the separation should not cause them to suffer needlessly. You both should be parenting them and loving them through this. Being civil for their sake is the best thing you can do for them. What you cannot do is expect her to feel the way you do or manage her end the way you do. She's an individual who is making very selfish choices right now, and that may not ever change.


Yeah, it was all so selfish and needless to me. I know she loves them, but she does, and has for some time, put her needs ahead of theirs...and my oldest is beginning to resent her for that i think. I will just work on being the rock...I think it will benefit my kids and me the most.


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## BashfulB

I don't get these g-damned men and women who go through these mid-life crises and then turn around and blow up their marriages and families for stupid, selfish, immature reasons. My wife pulled this same crap too and cheated on me for no damned good reason other than she wanted to. 

I read your thread and it was gut wrenching. I really feel for you Gary. You have my support and empathy. 

Glad to hear you are divorcing her and moving on. I think you are heading towards a brighter future, even though you are hurting now and maybe don't exactly see it that way. 

Your soon to be ex-wife may think she has all the answers now, but really she is deluding herself. I predict five years down the road, when she realises she is less happy and fulfilled than she was when she was married to you, she will finally come out of her self imposed rabbit hole and realise what a mess she has made of her life. But by then it will be too late. You will have long gotten over her and will have upgraded to a new improved model of lady -- hopefully one who will love you for the rest of your life and not pull the same stunt.


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## Garry2012

well its done. Judge signed the decree. It was a hard morning...maybe the finality of it all, the actual "end" of a chapter of my life. Still seems so rediculous to me i guess. I feel like i need to write her a long heartfelt letter...but I know it would be a waste of the ink, she wouldnt care. Maybe Ill write it to express my emotions, and fold it up and put it away..if she ever cares to know how i felt when we divorced, ill give it to her. If not, Ill give it to my kids to at least let them know how i felt.


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## turnera

{{{Garry}}}

Better days are ahead, my friend.


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## john_lord_b3

Wishing you a better future, Mr. Gary!


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## livinfree

Garry2012 said:


> If not, Ill give it to my kids to at least let them know how i felt.


That's the option I took. My ex didn't deserve to know the depth of love I felt for her.

My son will know the true story when he reads my journal later in life.


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## BashfulB

Garry2012 said:


> well its done. Judge signed the decree. It was a hard morning...maybe the finality of it all, the actual "end" of a chapter of my life. Still seems so rediculous to me i guess. I feel like i need to write her a long heartfelt letter...but I know it would be a waste of the ink, she wouldnt care. Maybe Ill write it to express my emotions, and fold it up and put it away..if she ever cares to know how i felt when we divorced, ill give it to her. If not, Ill give it to my kids to at least let them know how i felt.


She will care one day. When she is old and no man wants her.


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## Garry2012

livinfree said:


> That's the option I took. My ex didn't deserve to know the depth of love I felt for her.
> 
> My son will know the true story when he reads my journal later in life.


Yeah, i started a journal about a month ago. Should have earlier, but I want to document my journey. I want myself to remember what i went through, and to have something for the kids to see that Dad did try. It would be better than not having anything. She may someday say i didnt care, I want to give this to my kids and let them judge for themselves. Primarily though it is for me. I dont want to forget stuff...so much to remember, in a few years i wont remember alot of it.


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## Garry2012

So i guess I need to start a new thread over in LAD.


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## john_lord_b3

We'll meet you there, Mr. Gary!


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## Garry2012

I have now transitioned to LAD: Rebuilding from the Ashes.


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## AlmostYoung

BashfulBull said:


> hopefully one who will love you for the rest of your life and not pull the same stunt.


MLC is not a "stunt" that our partners "pull" on us. It's something that hits them extremely hard, and sends them running for answers. They aren't doing what they do to hurt us, they're sincerely in pain and searching for relief. 

This does not excuse their choices, but it does beg for the compassion of those who love them.

Yes they do often bark up the wrong trees looking for happiness.

Most do, but some never come out of their crises. 

I wish much peace and healing for you and your family Garry.


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## bandit.45

> AlmostYoung said:
> 
> 
> 
> MLC is not a "stunt" that our partners "pull" on us. *It's something that hits them extremely hard, and sends them running for answers. They aren't doing what they do to hurt us, they're sincerely in pain and searching for relief. *
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> Uh huh....
> 
> Stalkers are in pain and searching for answers too.
> 
> And sometimes they murder people. Just how much understanding am I supposed to afford some guy who sneaks into an innocent woman's house and stabs her to death to make sure no one else ever has her?
Click to expand...


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## The Middleman

AlmostYoung said:


> MLC is not a "stunt" that our partners "pull" on us. It's something that hits them extremely hard, and sends them running for answers. They aren't doing what they do to hurt us, they're sincerely in pain and searching for relief.
> 
> This does not excuse their choices, but it does beg for the compassion of those who love them.


Sorry, but I don't believe in this for one minute. MLC is just an excuse for bad behavior or there some other abnormality misdiagnosed as MLC. I don't have any "compassion" what so ever for those who have hurt their "innocent spouses" through infidelity, period. I don't care what the reason is. 

* "innocent spouses" = A spouse that has not committed an infidelity of their own.


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## turnera

A lot of people have MLC who don't cheat. It is real, it is legitimate.


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## Garry2012

I think her MLC is real, she is lost and looking for answers to make her "happy", not realizing at all that it all lies within her. She CHOSE to look to other men for her happiness without ever considering me. She lost sight that i was her best friend for 15 years (per her), and as of 8 months ago, i was reduced to "one of her best friends".


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## weightlifter

If only we could undo a chance meeting. Intercept a single fishing email or FB message. One tiny moment in time... Many would love to get that chance.


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## Garry2012

So true. I do wonder: what if i didnt move with my job to Dallas? she may not have seen the wonderful single life, joined her social groups etc. Not sure I can identify just one event...but wish I knew more about MLC 2 years ago...


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## weightlifter

LOL my personal undo moment is age 12. 7th grade was a disaster and I had a teacher so awful my parents saw he was bad. My parents sent me to private school the following year directly because of it. I lost contact with my local clique and I did not recover socially until my early 40s. Oddly now I have dozens of friends and do it easily. Go figure.

My father apologized to me a few weeks ago about this out of the blue. He said to me, "You know if I had not pulled you out of that school, you would never have lost contact with that group you hung around with... etc"

THAT was a HOLY SH!T moment as it was out of the blue of something I realized a year ago but NEVER mentioned to him. At that private school most lived miles from each other and I ended up drifting away from local friends.

I often wonder. If I could go back to then with only 2 pieces of knowledge 1) academic to get good grades that year 2) social/ social hierarchy. Where would i be at this moment?

Yes I know. Water under the bridge.


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## Garry2012

You whole life can be altered by taking a left turn instead of a right. Or at least it seems that way...


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## weightlifter

It was just so utterly shocking. This was the night my wife blew up on me in front of my parents. I was talking to my father about other things. I NEVER mentioned it to him and it was out of the blue.

Anyway. Hope you are getting your head together.

You never did get confirmation of a PA before split did you?


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## Garry2012

No, to protect herself she has denied it all. Its easy and convenient to say I was a jealous monster. She just cant decide if I didnt love her or she didnt love me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## godsord

Well, if you ask of my honest advice i would say that since you have tried talking her out of her immoral behavior, i think the next thing to do is preach bible to her - let her know that heavenly minded people do not behave the way she is doing.
I hope this helps


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## AVR1962

Garry, it is my thought that you might see your relationship as a loving marriage but if your wife did she would not be doing this. I do not think this is about a mid-life crisis at all. I think there have been things along the way that have hurt your wife, they probably did not change and little by little your wife has emotionally moved away from you. I think that she probably felt unloved and unattractive and that is why she had all the reconstructive stuff. It may have started with the hurt she claimed, maybe she does not even know how she is feeling completely. Stop with the "I love you's" and gifts if you are giving any. What she needs is conversation, for you to sit and truly engage with her about her feelings without you getting upset and making ultimatums. Unless you can understand what your part in this is nothing is going to change. 

I am in your wife's shoes right now except I am 50, have not had any reconstructive stuff and am not flirting on FB but I have endured too much and I have slowly emotionally separated myself from my husband. Why? No conversation, no engaging/involvement on his part. Life with him has become very boring. He blames and will not take responsibility for his own actions. He is not active and likes to sit in front of a computer for hours. He cannot see when things need to be done at home, does not like to help out with anything. He is detached and unavailable. He wants time to himself and only considers himself and does what he wants for himself, very selfish man. Can you identify with any of this? I hear this kind of thing from my women friends all the time. What are they looking for? Someone who CARES about them, wants to spend time with them, is interested in them. We don't wan tot be bought with cheap card, flowers ands candy....we need your time. Best of luck!


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## weightlifter

AVR. The ship sailed. They are divorced and she has a new man.

ATP we are cheering for Garry to recover and get his dating life going.


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## bldaz1

Pault said:


> Oh Dear that is a real cr*p situation to be in.
> 
> It appears that your W has been making a division and Im sad to say lying about, hiding clear attempts to orchestrate an affir of some kind. You say she has made mention of a seperation be cause its a MLC - Thats another phrase for I want to be away from you where I can openly scre around with anyone I like. You say shes a stay at home mum. OK that is NO excuse there are millions across the world that do that and dont go down the road of cosmetic enhancement and them set up secret phone accounts, use facebook (damn that thing to hell) to seek out guys and hide new phones. I guess some instant action is needed as at present you are funding this so
> Put a stop on her debit/creit cards. Block all phone charges to your account except one you control. Drop the internet line, Check your bank account for payments to another account that she may have set up to clean payments through. Get some much needed legal advice. Then stop her bringing the other guy (as far as you know him) in to your circle - shes going to do this andnappears to have been at it for a while so suddenly having her funding for fun cut will have effect. Then as she suggest that she wants the divorce tell her its her to move out and then lock changing time - soon she will need to get a job, work the hours to fund the fun time andnthen see if she has the time and stamina to fool about when she has to look after an apartment somewhere, pay for utilities, phone, car, food etc. Kids come first and they can stay with you as she is off fooling about - its tough on kids in this situation.
> 
> You will fell like awful doing this but if you think it through she presently has the best of both worlds andn has had you pay for the life shes had to date. Now she wants a single life... let her taste it as she will be cheating and the wear and tear on you if she is in your homw will be incredably stressful and cause great anxiety. Im sure some of the other guys will coe uo with more points to help but YOU MUST ACT SOON and not tell her anything your doing as she will set up contingencies to cover it. That will make it even more difficult for you to cope. Oh, consider a STI check soon as well as she cold well be using the KY with someone else


Wow yeah this ought to do it


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## Garry2012

Yeah my new thread is " rebuildibg from the ashes".

AVR, def some truth in your stmt. She is a VERY insecure woman, despite her beauty. So she was always worried about women stealibg me away. Except I was the one always trying to improve our communication and relationship. ..but I got to the point where I figured, sibce she doesnt try, must be happy the way it is. Then she cheats on me.

Heck, I am seeing someone who tells me all the time she is smitten with me, I have a woman at work who keeps telling me to take her on a date, and another who made me lasagna this week. Been a LONG time since I have been "courted and appreciated" too ..but I STILL would not have walked away from my marriage and family for it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nuclearnightmare

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah my new thread is " rebuildibg from the ashes".
> 
> AVR, def some truth in your stmt. She is a VERY insecure woman, despite her beauty. So she was always worried about women stealibg me away. Except I was the one always trying to improve our communication and relationship. ..but I got to the point where I figured, sibce she doesnt try, must be happy the way it is. Then she cheats on me.
> 
> Heck, I am seeing someone who tells me all the time she is smitten with me, I have a woman at work who keeps telling me to take her on a date, and another who made me lasagna this week. Been a LONG time since I have been "courted and appreciated" too ..but I STILL would not have walked away from my marriage and family for it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I saw that you have been keeping a journal. That is a great idea. I think if I was in your situation my journaling would include the words "wh**re" or "slvt" on several pages. and it wouldn't matter "why" she had cheated on me - her frustrations with me, her MLC, that I took her for granted/treated her badly.....she could go on and on and try to shift as much blame as she'd like; I would consider none of it. And my children, at the appropriate time in their lives, would get a single reason for why mom and dad's marriage broke up - mom needed to engage in sex acts with other men, and I was not OK with it. If at any point they became unclear on whether that was the real reason, I would make them clear.

your wife had character issues. That's why she cheated. forget the other crap.


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## Garry2012

Yeah.....my rose colored glasses and "rescuer" mentality covered for all her issues. Insecure, character, and poor communication skills are just the tip...she needs someone to make her happy. And that doesn't work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AVR1962

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah my new thread is " rebuildibg from the ashes".
> 
> AVR, def some truth in your stmt. She is a VERY insecure woman, despite her beauty. So she was always worried about women stealibg me away. Except I was the one always trying to improve our communication and relationship. ..but I got to the point where I figured, sibce she doesnt try, must be happy the way it is. Then she cheats on me.
> 
> Heck, I am seeing someone who tells me all the time she is smitten with me, I have a woman at work who keeps telling me to take her on a date, and another who made me lasagna this week. Been a LONG time since I have been "courted and appreciated" too ..but I STILL would not have walked away from my marriage and family for it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Garry, what would you say you have learned from what you went thru?


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## Garry2012

Good question. One, I have some codepency issues, and im a rescuer. I sacrificed a lot to make her happy, and it always just a short term fix. I dont have many regrets however. I fought for the marriage and still fight for the kids. I prob need to read more, but I just dont know what my share of the blame is. I .am a communicator, I was loving and affectionate. ...but certainty not falling over her like the guys on fb etc. 

I do think think its a mlc because of the quick turn from her telling/showing me she loved me to...I dont love you anymore. Though it doesn't matter. I have moved on, and starting to see what appreciation for me looks and feels like. I learned ill be just fine.

Most of all I think, I learned you cant make other people happy, I was always trying to fix her to make her happy, and never reached a point where I felt she was. I was the man of her dreams, got her the lifestyle she wanted, the family she wanted, all only short term fixes. My next spouse will have to be happy on her own.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Reading is good; I'd prefer you to visit a therapist. Not because there's something wrong with you, but because they go through 10 years of college to be able to help you see things differently. Show you things that wouldn't have occurred to you. Give you advice on new ways to move forward that get you to a better place quicker and help you stop being that fixer (and picking another mate just like the last one).


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## happyman64

" My next spouse will have to be happy on her own"

That is one key ingredient Garry. Never settle on being the fixer. Now she will have to fix herself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Garry2012

I agree I need to see a therapist. Mainly because I have run through the events and actions of the last 2-3 years and dont really see where I went wrong, or what I could have done differently. She just disconnected and moved on. So, I am weary rhat maybe I would do the same thing again if I dont know what I did wrong this time. 

As a side note, she is being a great mom this weekend. She wouldnt let them bring toys over, and then didnt show up at our daughters soccer game. Nice. I guess thw guilt of all they have done to me makes them hate me...I remind them of their lies etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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