# To Trust or Not To Trust?



## angrybuttrying (Jun 17, 2013)

I have posted several times about my WW's EA that was very brief, no PA, on dday a NC was done, and while very difficult (as we all unfortunately know), we are 4+ months into R and both have agreed to let the past go and concentrate on ourselves and our marriage.

I have read numerous posts about evidence gathering, transparency, VAR's, etc. and wanted to throw out my two cents and get others' thoughts.

*Simply put, I have made a conscious decision to trust her completely in every aspect of our relationship.* 

I have not asked for transparency, as I believe it's too easy to demonstrate transparency yet not be honest. i.e. she can show me her iPhone, but she can find other means to communicate if she really wants to.

Yes, it's been hard at times, and yes I have looked at her emails once or twice without her knowledge (I'm weak sometimes, and morbidly gain false reassurance by doing this), but ultimately if she's going to cheat, I can't stop her. I don't control her, I can't control her, etc. - I can only control myself and my emotions. 

I realize my view may not be the same if my situation was different (multiple affairs, etc) but in mind instance, I really view transparency as false reassurance. It's just too easy to start up an EA again if that's what one wants.

One last thing: if it does happen again, then trust won't be an issue, as we won't be together.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

I guess you are at the point where you are not going to become a spy 24/7 you have to trust that she will do the right thing, and if she doesn't you have to trust that you will do the right thing. (leave)


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

Yea I did what you did before I came to TAM. She flirted with a man to the point that he sent her pictures of his ****. She of course covered everything up and I got lucky in that she didn't get rid of her old facebook conversation. I yelled screamed demanded no contact. Then I let it go. 8 months later I found her in another EA with someone else and in looking through her records discovered that she and the original OM texted back and forth for a month after she promised no contact. You don't have to be a spy 24/7 but you are setting yourself up to be betrayed much worse if you decide to excuse her and forgive.


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## angrybuttrying (Jun 17, 2013)

Good points. I will continue to pay attention to our marriage and our relationship, but I guess don't really see a point in too much spying. 

Actions speak louder than words, and the whole reason I learned of the EA anyway was due to her actions towards me, which I then casually investigated. 

Thanks!


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

You don't have to be a parole officer---but you should moniter the phone bills, keep an eye on her activities, and changes of normal activity

She as you say can go way underground and you will never know---but by the same token---you don't also want to be sloppy 2nds, and not even know about it

This is all nothing but misery---but you still have to have your own self respect---so be wary---good luck to you


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

I think you're making a big mistake by taking the easy way out and basically adopting the attitude of "it is what it is, if she's going to cheat she'll find a way so why bother checking up on her".

It would be like your local law enforcement saying, "why bother with radar traps, they'll just figure out where we are and go speed on some other road".

What you are doing is really no better than sticking your head in the sand.

I looked at your back posts, for one particular thing that I find to be most relevant in affairs. I could be wrong, but I strongly feel that if the cheater did not come clean until confronted with evidence, that they lack moral character and they have inclination to do it again. Your wife has showed you her true colors, she has shown you what she's capable of, and that's part of her character, it was always there, it will always BE there, and it's not just going to disappear because she got caught and felt bad about it.

You need to keep tabs on her, she needs to know you're keeping tabs on her, because there will always be opportunities, there will always be temptation, and you need to keep her on your radar otherwise you run the real risk of her straying once again. 

To blindly trust this woman after she has proven herself to be untrustworthy is a foolish more, although I do understand why it's "easier" for you to just throw your hands up in the air and leave it all to fate.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

angrybuttrying said:


> I have posted several times about my WW's EA that was very brief, no PA, on dday a NC was done, and while very difficult (as we all unfortunately know), we are 4+ months into R and both have agreed to let the past go and concentrate on ourselves and our marriage.
> 
> I have read numerous posts about evidence gathering, transparency, VAR's, etc. and wanted to throw out my two cents and get others' thoughts.
> 
> ...


!00% unconditional trust is a ticket to cheat again. Transparency is a requirement in the age of social media and electronic communication.

Sorry but you are simply choosing to look the other way with your attitude and I think you may regret that. Don't you WANT to know if she starts up another EA or continues underground with the first one? If you do not look, then you may be ignoring the signs.

It is your life and your marriage and your decision to make. But I think you are now in a fantasy land.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

angrybuttrying said:


> Good points. I will continue to pay attention to our marriage and our relationship, but I guess don't really see a point in too much spying.
> 
> Actions speak louder than words, and the whole reason I learned of the EA anyway was due to her actions towards me, which I then casually investigated.
> 
> Thanks!


OK I retract most of my previous message. Your first post about 100% trust just set the alarms bells ringing in my head.

TRUST BUT VERIFY. I hope that is the track you are taking. Do not feel guilty about checking on her now and then.

THOSE THAT IGNORE THE PAST ARE DOOMED TO REPEAT IT. Another age old saying that has been proven true over the ages.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Saying I made a decision to trust her is like saying "I made a conscious decision to be 6 feet tall".

You don't trust her, and you can't trust her, and you never will trust her. Becuase trust is something that only exists through observations regarding behaviors and actions. I trust the sun will come up tomorrow, since I have seen it come up every day of my life.

But that is not to say you must spy on her.

In order to go "all in" emotionally in your marriage, you have to feel safe. So, you are either able to "feel safe" without checking up on her, or you are going to hold back emotionally from your marriage in order to protect yourself.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

angrybuttrying said:


> I have not asked for transparency, as I believe it's too easy to demonstrate transparency yet not be honest.


abt,

I look at monitoring a WS this way. You don't do it so much to discourage the cheating, but instead, so you will know *IF* she does cheat - so as to avoid wasting another single day of your life with someone who would then be a serial cheater.


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## angrybuttrying (Jun 17, 2013)

As always, excellent points and counterpoints, good discussion all around. My view is to trust and "verify." However, verify is in quotes, as many may define it differently.

I define it, to me, as being aware of our relationship, our interactions, and our behaviors. I don't have to know everything, nor do I want to. What does that actually change? I know enough to understand what happened, why it happened, and we are both striving to better ourselves and our marriage.

After almost 20 years of marriage, I knew when something was "up" and I was right. I'm confident that if I feel like something else comes "up" in the future, I will know it then and be able to address it as appropriate.

Again, good healthy dialogue.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

TDSC60 said:


> !00% unconditional trust is a ticket to cheat again.


This 1000x. You should never trust ANYONE unconditionally regardless of whether they have betrayed you or not.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Trust is just an excuse for being lazy. People don't want to stay on top of what's important to them. And how your personal realtionships flow are just as important as any business relationship.

In my 20s, I felt shfted by my family because just as I was trying to get rid of verbally abusive boyfriend, he then befriended my brother and sister and my parents were only too happy to take his phone calls and then discuss their conversations with me. Their reasoning, I had introduced this guy to them and effectively, I have lost control of the situation.

After awhile I asked around to other women. It turns out that there are women who will kill a friendship with anyone who makes direct contact to their parents. Many people who do not tolerate their SO having direct contact with their family. Many people who look with suspicion upon their parents wanting to introduce them to people their age for the express purpose of helping their children to find friends.

In other words, I fould a lot of people out there who do not trust their parents and other family members; they keep a tight reign on their personal relationships, that is keeping their friends away from their families, and they appear to me to be very empowered. They certainly weren't *****ing and moning.

I have to come to the conclusion that to not trust is very empowering. But it takes energy to be on top of things. And now I feel that those people who want to trust, may be just too lazy to check up on things themselves.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

Angry you know each other but she also knew how to hide this relationship with the OM from you. 20 years is a long time and are you sure you aren't going to wake up one day and start thinking back to that time where you thought something was up but you figured it was nothing. Look I am all for you reconciling but you have to be 100 percent sure you don't have any lingering doubts or it will be an atomic bomb waiting to go off. have you looked into your phone records, checked all of her email accounts, and looked for as much evidence as you can in order to reach the conclusion that you can start to trust her again. That's the view I took is that I am going to dig until I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that my wife is now loyal to me again. I had a list of things my wife was supposed to do to show me she really wanted to stay in the marriage. Then I just sort of check in from time to time.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> *Trust is just an excuse for being lazy. * People don't want to stay on top of what's important to them. And how your personal realtionships flow are just as important as any business relationship.
> 
> In my 20s, I felt shfted by my family because just as I was trying to get rid of verbally abusive boyfriend, he then befriended my brother and sister and my parents were only too happy to take his phone calls and then discuss their conversations with me. Their reasoning, I had introduced this guy to them and effectively, I have lost control of the situation.
> 
> ...


No. I can't agree.

You found a lot of people who do not trust their parents and other family members?

You perhaps know too many odd people in whacked out family relationships. Do you subconsciously seek out such people, I wonder?:scratchhead:


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> No. I can't agree.
> 
> You found a lot of people who do not trust their parents and other family members?
> 
> You perhaps know too many odd people in whacked out family relationships.* Do you subconsciously seek out such people, I wonder?:scratchhead:*


No, I don't. but I have noticed whether they are people that I know in real life or people that I read about, more and more are admitting the difficult relationships that they had with their parents. Parents are not always their children's best supporters or even cheerleaders as society would have us believe.

In any case, for all those who believe that they have been blighted by trusting too much when a healthy dose of skepticism and "show me" might have rewritten history, it's never too late to make a change in life.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> No, I don't. but I have noticed whether they are people that I know in real life or people that I read about, more and more are admitting the difficult relationships that they had with their parents. Parents are not always their children's best supporters or even cheerleaders as society would have us believe.
> 
> In any case, for all those who believe that they have been blighted by trusting too much when a healthy dose of skepticism and "show me" might have rewritten history, it's never too late to make a change in life.


I know hardly any people like you describe. Yes, there are some, but really only a small number.

My wife is one, but then her family are nuts.


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

If you want to trust her completely than fine and dandy. But remember that she had an EA and if you check her email once in a while, don't feel guilty. If you did what she did, you can bet she would be checking yours. If she catches you, please don't apologize to her. She knows why your doing it and has herself only to blame.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

MissFroggie said:


> I find it disturbing how many people posting on this site seem to want to break up every relationship and sew seeds of doubt in every case they can.
> 
> There is no abuse here, there is nothing negative.


We didn't sow the seeds of doubt, the wife having an affair did that. 

As far as nothing negative here.. I'm not going to state the obvious.

Truth is most stories in this section are about relationships that have had infidelity, and they are already doomed, and the best advice is the most often provided: nothing left to save, cover your ass as best you can and move on with your life.


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## angrybuttrying (Jun 17, 2013)

Again, thanks for all the posts. I love the varying viewpoints and discussion, and certainly understand the variety of experiences we've all had to hold some of these viewpoints. 

I guess for me, what hits home the most is MissFroggie's posts, and I thank her for her comments. I love my wife, and the life we've built together. There was a time when we both made seriously bad mistakes that hurt each other, and we've both learned a lot about ourselves and each other through this difficult time.

I believe we are both recommitted to our marriage and each other, and we have to forgive each other for the mistakes we've made. I have to forgive her EA, which has not been easy certainly, and she has had to forgive things about me as well. Further, we have had to come to grips with forgiving ourselves for our transgressions. 

Ultimately, time will tell whether I'm being a fool as some may suggest, burying my head in the sand, etc. I simply choose not to live my life in the past. A song quote that has helped me through this time is:

"There is no use dreaming of a perfect future 
Or regretting a troubled past.
It's only today that counts 
Live it like it might be your last."

The whole song speaks volumes to me, happy to share if anyone is interested - PM me. 

Anyway, things are great right now (except for the triggers that occasionally occur) and I'm optismistic about today as well as tomorrow. I've been able to learn from yesterday, which is important, but I"ve also learned to let yesterday go and not continue to live there.

Thanks again.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Rugsweeping does not directly correlate with lack of monitoring. It also means not talking about the A, not asking for or offering the truth.

I hope that you and your WW are having honest discussions about her infidelity. I hope you know the truth of what happened and are not sweeping things under the rug in the name of a marriage reborn. If so, please note the many, many people here who came to regret that as the years have gone on.


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## angrybuttrying (Jun 17, 2013)

We have discussed the EA, both together and with a MC. Painful discussions certainly, but I know everything I want/need to know. After lots of discussions, I just believe there comes a time (both decide when) when it's time to move on. 

The only motivation I have at this point to bring it up is to throw it into her face, and how does that help the relationship?


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## Want2babettrme (May 17, 2013)

angrybuttrying said:


> I have posted several times about my WW's EA that was very brief, no PA, on dday a NC was done, and while very difficult (as we all unfortunately know), we are 4+ months into R and both have agreed to let the past go and concentrate on ourselves and our marriage.
> 
> I have read numerous posts about evidence gathering, transparency, VAR's, etc. and wanted to throw out my two cents and get others' thoughts.
> 
> ...


Have you told her that you will divorce if the deceit happens again, clearly and in no uncertain terms? I understand your reasoning for not enforcing or policing transparency after all, it is your life. One note of caution is that enforced transparency is a logical consequence to the deception involved in an affair. The cheater is taught and reminded that trust has to be earned and that their actions caused that trust to be lost.

What consequences has your WW suffered for her behavior? When the WS suffers consequences, the romance and excitement of the affair is removed. This makes additional affairs less likely. 

Just saying.


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## ironman (Feb 6, 2013)

angrybuttrying said:


> I have not asked for transparency, as I believe it's too easy to demonstrate transparency yet not be honest. i.e. she can show me her iPhone, but she can find other means to communicate if she really wants to.


You're forgetting one thing about the point of transparency ... *DETERRENCE*. 

While it is true that they can take it further underground, they also have to up their effort level in order to do so knowing that you're watching them. This means they really have to think about what they are doing instead of just falling into comfortable ole' habits.

Besides, you shouldn't blind trust any spouse ... especially one who has already proven a propensity for infidelity. Always keep an eye on them ... but I think you get that.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

In my view, there are a number of factors that determine the amount of monitoring (trust verification) that a BS should implement:

1 - the severity of the A (EA vs. PA, length of the A, exit vs. non-exit A)

2 - the recency of the A (4 months is not very long). 

3 - amount of remorse demonstrated by WS 

4 - demonstrated trustworthiness of WS (passing every monitoring test)

If the WS repeatedly passes all the monitoring tests, as time passes, there should be less need for it. But this is an important trust building tool for the WS, and if they truly are remorseful they should actually see it as benefiting the R.

That said, I'll only speak for myself when I say; I don't think there will ever come a time when I don't have at least one eye, half open.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

After finding out my wife was serially cheating for years...

TRUST NO-ONE.


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