# The myth of responsive desire, a short article to answer a question asked elsewhere



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

secretsheriff said:


> Exactly. This is someone who knows his LD wife has *RESPONSIVE desire* and he's choosing to malingering over the fact that she doesn't masturbate.
> 
> *Ridiculous*.





Mr. Nail said:


> *I don't believe in responsive desire anymore, because it is "Ridiculous."*
> Not quite as ridiculous as thread jacking a thread jack on a thread 2 moderators are watching, but pretty ridiculous.
> 
> When it comes right down to it the reason we get the advice that we get here is because it would be unethical to give any other advice. If you really want your life to change you have to Make Changes. (Get out) If you are unwilling to make changes your path to happiness is in accepting the status (shut up). Making someone else make a change is impossible and unethical. So giving impossible advice is unethical. Giving unethical advice is unethical.
> Most of the hundreds of other things he could try are actually just ways to try to get someone else to change.





minimalME said:


> *Why do you believe that responsive desire is ridiculous?
> 
> I ask, because I consider myself someone who's more responsive in nature, and it feels quite real.*





Mr. Nail said:


> Not in the scope of the topic of this thread. If you want to start a thread on that topic, *I might be willing to write out my reasons for that belief.* Spoiler warning: *you won't like it.*





minimalME said:


> I'm not gonna start a thread for a question you may or may not answer. 🤪😂
> 
> But* I am genuinely interested in your view.*


Transporting a thread jack from the social spot (possibly not necessary) to general relationship. I thought it would be easier to express my thoughts on this in a article rather than as a defense to an off hand comment. So not to defend that I called responsive desire ridiculous, but rather to delve into what e really are saying when we accept the term. Here are the thoughts of a rank amature. 

When I first heard the term Responsive desire it struk a deep chord with me. I have always said that the most attractive trit to me was an interest in me. I thought yes a label that fits me. But it's not. Responsive desire is differentiated from low desire and high desire by being a variable desire that reacts to the environment. Now there may somewhere be some true reactive desires but a closer look will reveal that most reactive desires are easily explained as much more simple behavior sets.

Lets look at me first. Do I have reactive desire because I am attracted to people who are interested in me? Sure my desire to a specific person starts when I realise that they have considered me. But my desire for sex, closeness, romance, existed before that, and continues after. The desire is consistent, the focus of that desire is captured by the flattery, or the security of an others interest. In other words I withhold my desire until I get the ego kibble I'm looking for.

A next case is my wife. She also thinks she has reactive desire. But in reality she has low desire. Sex, closeness, or even romance are not worth the effort. She isn't interested. Now if I am willing to invest a half hour in massage time, she will suddenly have desire. But not really She still isn't interested, but since the work is all done, she is willing to go along for the ride. In the misquoted words of hallmark, She doesn't care enough to send the very best. She only cares enough for a minimum effort participation.

Another common situation is the "The man should . . ." case. In this situation one partner feels that the other partner should do something (bring flowers, wash dishes, plan date, whatever) and then they can give themselves permission to desire. Because saying "the man should" sounds terribly sexist and un liberating, the non desiring partner simply declares themselves reactive. They are not reactive, They are controlling. 

This is closely related to the "I won't risk desire" case. it's George McFly saying "I don't know if I can handle that kind of rejection." If you take the risks, I'll muster some desire. 

After going through enough of these cases a pattern becomes clear
Reactive desire is simply being lazy. I won't initiate, take a risk, go for it. Either because I just don't desire it enough (Low Desire) of because I don't dare (low self esteem). Not so much a different desire type as a pattern of behavior that will eventually hurt your partner and wreck your relationship. 

Next in this illuminating series "The Myth of Spontaneous Sex"


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

pleasure is the measure


in which the reader learns that THEY are the REAL “little pink pill”




medium.com





What do you think about this article on responsive desire? 

There are some figures floating around that 80-90% of women are responsive desire and a small percentage of men are. It helps to explain why the majority of women don't think about sex every waking moment while it appears a good percentage of men devote their lives to thinking about their nether regions.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

...


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> There are some figures floating around that 80-90% of women are responsive desire and a small percentage of men are. It helps to explain why the majority of women don't think about sex every waking moment while it appears a good percentage of men devote their lives to thinking about their nether regions.


Do you remember @Jellybeans, I love her quote, “Sex isn’t the only thing I think about, but it’s always on my mind.”


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Blondilocks said:


> pleasure is the measure
> 
> 
> in which the reader learns that THEY are the REAL “little pink pill”
> ...


I think that if Emily wants to explain responsive desire she needs to understand spontaneous desire. You can not function if you are constantly being struck by lightning. But in a way it would explain a few of the men I know.

There are also some figures floating around in that article that say 30% of women are responsive desire. Thus I suspect the overuse of the responsive desire label to cover general poor relationship habits. 

As to what women are thinking about, Can you or anyone explain why my wife who explains her desire as low or infrequent. spends a minimum of 4 hours a day reading (let's be blunt here) sex novels? By minimum I mean on days when she works 12 hours and has no energy to cook her own meal.
If nothing else this explains why I seriously question this "Ridiculous" idea.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Mr. Nail said:


> As to what women are thinking about, Can you or anyone explain why my wife who explains her desire as low or infrequent. spends a minimum of 4 hours a day reading (let's be blunt here) sex novels? By minimum I mean on days when she works 12 hours and has no energy to cook her own meal.
> If nothing else this explains why I seriously question this "Ridiculous" idea.


Well, it explains why you might, but you must realize that it's a gross over generalization from your personal experience.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

minimalME said:


> removed at posters request


Clearly our situations differ but I can't help but wonder if we are both examples of relationships with 2 reactives. Even though I'm still not conceding that reactive is nearly a common as thought. if it even exists. Thanks for writing out a long answer. 

I think conditional or situational desire is not the same as reactive desire. I think the most depraved horndog has some lines they just won't cross to scratch an itch..

One other thing is the relative levels of testosterone in women and men. I have low testosterone but I am still some thing like 50X higher than an average woman. I think desire style has to be more than how often a person thinks of sex.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Well, it explains why you might, but you must realize that it's a gross over generalization from your personal experience.


twist the pasta into pretzels all you want. It's not reactive desire if you can get it up for the book when you can barely walk. That is the definition of high desire.

Reactive desire is simply too easy. Requires no evidence, excuses everything.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> twist the pasta into pretzels all you want. It's not reactive desire if you can get it up for the book when you can barely walk. That is the definition of high desire.
> 
> Reactive desire is simply too easy. Requires no evidence, excuses everything.


Maybe she is reactivate.....to fantasy sex books.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I see it written a lot that relationships shouldn't be hard - that if two people are meant to be together, then it's this magical Disney sort of thing that just happens.

To me, that's nonsense.

People have to be present. That means thoughtfully, specifically directing all of your primary sexual energy to your chosen partner. 

They come first. It takes effort. Sometimes a lot.

But how many live that way? Hardly anyone.

For whatever reason we give ourselves over to all sorts of meaningless novelty - and neglect those we say we love. 

And every second we do that is a choice.



Mr. Nail said:


> I think desire style has to be more than how often a person thinks of sex.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> As to what women are thinking about, Can you or anyone explain why my wife who explains her desire as low or infrequent. spends a minimum of 4 hours a day reading (let's be blunt here) sex novels? By minimum I mean on days when she works 12 hours and has no energy to cook her own meal.
> If nothing else this explains why I seriously question this "Ridiculous" idea.


I'll put this as delicately as I can: if your wife couldn't get her hands on romance novels, she could just as easily spend 4 hours a day reading computer manuals written in Japanese so she wouldn't have to interact with you. She is avoiding you. I'm sorry.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> I'll put this as delicately as I can: if your wife couldn't get her hands on romance novels, she could just as easily spend 4 hours a day reading computer manuals written in Japanese so she wouldn't have to interact with you. She is avoiding you. I'm sorry.


She is definitely getting some of her gratification from the books and not from Nail.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> I'll put this as delicately as I can: if your wife couldn't get her hands on romance novels, she could just as easily spend 4 hours a day reading computer manuals written in Japanese so she wouldn't have to interact with you. She is avoiding you. I'm sorry.


Gulp. Glad you took the delicate route.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Gulp. Glad you took the delicate route.


I'm so glad you appreciate my subtly. It warms the cockles of my heart.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I'm curious Nail.

What is your motivation with this marriage?

I'm not trying to be insulting but you don't seem to be in a healthy place.

I have a low tolerance for dysfunctional relationships myself.

Your's seems to be in that category.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> I'm so glad you appreciate my subtly. It warms the cockles of my heart.


I'm simply impressed with your tag about not being a quitter.🤠


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Mr. Nail said:


> As to what women are thinking about, Can you or anyone explain why my wife who explains her desire as low or infrequent. spends a minimum of 4 hours a day reading (let's be blunt here) sex novels?


As an occasional reader of sexually graphic novels and straight up "bodice rippers" ranging from Urban Fantasy to Historical Romance, the reason isn't the sex. Trust me, there are only so many ways to tastefully and semi-tastelessly describe sex. After the 10th book you don't even notice it any more. It's the heady days of a new relationship, adventure, romance, and having a very manly man groveling at your feet. It's being a young English governess or a badass vampire slayer with a man who worships you and believes you to be more necessary than oxygen. It's the fantasy emotional roller coaster with the satisfying ending of Happily Ever After.

Basically, it's an entire exciting relationship from start to finish with no risk and no work required. Oh, and you can have another one right after.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

I know you don't have a good sexual relationship with your wife. But just because she is or claims to be responsive desire doesn't mean you can pin all the rest of us with her behaviors.

I am responsive desire mostly. I am not like you described. In addition you say a massage makes her respond but not sexually just ok? How do you know the massage doesn't get her motor running? Because she doesn't do the things you desire after? But bottom line I'm not going to defend your wife it is obvious your relationship has issues beyond responsive desire.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

MJJEAN said:


> As an occasional reader of sexually graphic novels and straight up "bodice rippers" ranging from Urban Fantasy to Historical Romance, the reason isn't the sex. Trust me, there are only so many ways to tastefully and semi-tastelessly describe sex. After the 10th book you don't even notice it any more. It's the heady days of a new relationship, adventure, romance, and having a very manly man groveling at your feet. It's being a young English governess or a badass vampire slayer with a man who worships you and believes you to be more necessary than oxygen. It's the fantasy emotional roller coaster with the satisfying ending of Happily Ever After.
> 
> Basically, it's an entire exciting relationship from start to finish with no risk and no work required. Oh, and you can have another one right after.


I think you're going to have a hard time convincing men that it isn't about the sex as they liken it to porn. Plus, it is called erotica. It might be more accurate to classify it as 'adventure'.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

*with a man who worships you and believes you to be more necessary than oxygen *

Quoted for truth...... men don't get that the bodice rippers have the lead up to the ripping the emotional connection. 

Oh and in the book she always gets to orgasm (multiple times).

I have heard so many complain about 50 Shades of Grey because they view it as a bondage sadist book. 
Well it is a book about a man who can't stop thinking about a woman, will turn his life upside down for her, desperate to marry her. And it doesn't hurt he's rich, good looking, doesn't play games, tells her he wants her, means it, will do anything for her, and she gets mind blowing orgasms. 

Personally since I've read the books when I feel like reading again. I skip over the sex parts. The sheer insanity of that new relationship stuff is the heady things of which women dream.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Mr. Nail said:


> I think that if Emily wants to explain responsive desire she needs to understand spontaneous desire. You can not function if you are constantly being struck by lightning. But in a way it would explain a few of the men I know.
> 
> There are also some figures floating around in that article that say 30% of women are responsive desire. Thus I suspect the overuse of the responsive desire label to cover general poor relationship habits.
> 
> ...


So is your wife constantly masturbating to these books? Just because she reads them doesn’t mean she is activating her sexual response to them.

I have a female friend who used to read bodice rippers all the time, like shelves and shelves full of them. She has never had an O, and at the time she was reading them has an LD husband. She is also LD but can be responsive if her partner is pursuing sex with her. He never did.

None of that has never been relevant to her reading the books. She may have gotten some kind of thrill from them, but never masturbates and never brought any of her thrill to her LD husband about it.

These days she is remarried, to another LD man. Neither of them complain about their barely there sex life because they are both LD. She has graduated from reading bodice rippers to now watching romance junk on Netflix. Still watches all of them, still does not make her want sex.

If and when her husband wants sex and actively pursues her, then she gets into sex. Otherwise, it doesn’t even cross her mind. Even though she watches dozens of fake people in her romance stories getting sexy. The two are not related for her.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I regret a bit bringing in the books to this conversation but much that is true has been opined.
She does use the books to avoid me.
She masturbates occasionally with them. apparently cleaning her toys now.
Her need has reached addiction level.
I worry more about the addiction than the sex at this point.
To those claiming reactive desire, my only thought is that if after careful examination you feel your diagnosis is correct, work with it.
I determined that for me it is bunk. My wife? Well she is avoidant more than LD the RD diagnosis would be irresponsible. 
I'm not interested in riding this train again (in answer to Conan) As a short fat balding man over 50, I'm in it for the health insurance. If I had her job, I'd live alone. 
Thanks everyone for making an interesting thread out of my rant.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

If she hasn't had to change the battery in the Kindle yet, wait for it. It might be very amusing to watch her desperately try to open that sucker.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Mr. Nail said:


> I'm not interested in riding this train again (in answer to Conan) As a short fat balding man over 50, I'm in it for the health insurance. If I had her job, I'd live alone.
> Thanks everyone for making an interesting thread out of my rant.


So you are using her but mad about the sex. I want to say that there is someone out there for everyone. If you are truly unhappy get up the gumption to divorce. You can find a woman who will want you and want to have sex. You deserve to be happy.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

It’s unfortunate that men and women are often incompatible sexually but that’s probably more common than not. You obviously plan to stay so hopefully you can come to terms with your marriage as it is.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> I regret a bit bringing in the books to this conversation but much that is true has been opined.
> She does use the books to avoid me.
> She masturbates occasionally with them. apparently cleaning her toys now.
> Her need has reached addiction level.
> ...


I get it but it really sucks.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

stay or go, is not the issue of the day. I was 2 weeks working on go plans. But the thing is, there is no hurry. I can leave later as easily as sooner.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I thought you had said before you were staying (assuming I’m remembering correctly and I may not be). What has prompted the thought of leaving? No hope of improvement?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> After going through enough of these cases a pattern becomes clear
> Reactive desire is simply being lazy. I won't initiate, take a risk, go for it. Either because I just don't desire it enough (Low Desire) of because I don't dare (low self esteem). Not so much a different desire type as a pattern of behavior that will eventually hurt your partner and wreck your relationship.


That is a rather insightful concept that responsive desire is a possible mixture of laziness and risk management that manifests as low desire that only "responds" to a sure thing from a motivated partner.

I think you are likely correct. The path to progress in my opinion is to focus on improving self confidence of someone experiencing a responsive desire. 

Regards,
Badsanta


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> As to what women are thinking about, Can you or anyone explain why my wife who explains her desire as low or infrequent. spends a minimum of 4 hours a day reading (let's be blunt here) sex novels? By minimum I mean on days when she works 12 hours and has no energy to cook her own meal.
> If nothing else this explains why I seriously question this "Ridiculous" idea.


Why don't you (in secret) read few of these novels she loves so much, and figure out what makes her so responsive? Maybe there are kinks to be explored together...


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

badsanta said:


> That is a rather insightful concept that responsive desire is a possible mixture of laziness and risk management that manifests as low desire that only "responds" to a sure thing from a motivated partner.
> Regards,
> Badsanta


I don't see how this would be responsive desire. I mean most of the women have partners they know darn well would have sex with them (I know I do). Laziness? maybe. I know for me my brain just doesn't work the way you guys would like it. I have multiple streams of thought going on at any one time. I am responsible for many things and I do my best to calculate or figure out the best strategy / move / future move so that my family, work and hobbies are successful. This just doesn't lead to me sitting around thinking about sex and wanting sex. My body just doesn't get 'horny' like many of you guys who want spontaneous desire. Once he starts rubbing on me and making my body notice things are happening then I can really get into it and I am fully involved and passionate. You can call me lazy and risk adverse but perhaps your lack of understanding is why it is hard to overcome the problem.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anastasia6 said:


> You can call me lazy and risk adverse but perhaps your lack of understanding is why it is hard to overcome the problem.


We're damned if we do and damned if we don't. I've been on one side of several arguments where I suggested that, on average and in large numbers, men are more driven by sex than women. It usually ends in me having to bow out to calls of old world thinking and sexism, even when it's objectively provable.

If it's true that women are as innately randy as men, then the remaining reasons for female responsive desire (and let's face it, this label is applied far more to women than to men) would be disinterest or laziness.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Mr. Nail said:


> I worry more about the addiction than the sex at this point.
> My wife? Well she is avoidant more than LD the RD diagnosis would be irresponsible.


What you're describing in your many posts about the subject is a woman that doesn't want sex. The only question is does she not want sex, in general, or does she not want sex with you, in particular?

I can't answer that question, but I can relate my own experience being "LL", masturbating, and gorging on the Historical Romance or Urban Fantasy books. Not surprisingly, it was when I was in my mid-20's and married to my exH "for the kids". I had a sex drive, but I didn't want to have sex with him as I wasn't physically attracted to him. I avoided personal interaction by reading or busying myself with housework or familial "obligations" and I frequently used the kids, friends, and/or neighbors as shields.



Openminded said:


> It’s unfortunate that men and women are often incompatible sexually but that’s probably more common than not. You obviously plan to stay so hopefully you can come to terms with your marriage as it is.


I don't think men and women are often sexually incompatible, in general, based on gender. There's a lid for every pot and a glove for every hand. I think people often don't understand their own sexuality, much less the other person's, and/or they ignore red flags and this leads to mismatches that could have been avoided if only...



Mr. Nail said:


> stay or go, is not the issue of the day. I was 2 weeks working on go plans. But the thing is, there is no hurry. I can leave later as easily as sooner.


Life is short, man. I'm in my mid-40's now and know more than one person who died while waiting to meet some milestone before leaving.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Openminded said:


> I thought you had said before you were staying (assuming I’m remembering correctly and I may not be). What has prompted the thought of leaving? No hope of improvement?


Sorry I post all over so it is hard to keep track.
I was prompted by having the misfortune of seeing her interact with a male coworker.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

WandaJ said:


> Why don't you (in secret) read few of these novels she loves so much, and figure out what makes her so responsive? Maybe there are kinks to be explored together...


To answer the question 
Gag reflex


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

I guess that I am just a simpleton. Because like I have said, I just don't get this, and I am really trying. 

My F, and most other woman I have been with, have a great sexual relationship. I cannot be the only man in history that enjoys sex, seems to be fairly good at it I guess, and has had good to great sexual relations with most/all woman I have been with. 

If a girl and I did not hit it off sexually, which did not happen too much but happened, that was fine, we both moved on. 

Responsive desire?? I don't know, what that means. Currently, my F will say that she wants to have sex, if it has been a day or two and I was too tired to initiate, I guess. We have sex and it seems great. 

Or I start making love to her, and we have sex and it is great. 

Responsive, I really don't know. I dote on her, I flirt with her, I cook for her and make these damn flower bed boxes... I do all of that because it seems to make her happy. We actually hold each other all night, every night, and oddly enough she is horny in the morning a lot, which is not my optimal time, but I am more than willing. Is that responsive?

Also, for me, a woman is in love with me, wants to have sex with me, or she does not. It is fine either way. 

Any woman that does not want to be with me, she does not have to. But, the love affection and sex has to be there for us to be in a relationship. 

Is it more wonderful when you are super in love, like I am now, you bet. And do I work on that loving relationship and work to make her happy sexually and every other way? You bet!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Anastasia6 said:


> You can call me lazy and risk adverse but perhaps your lack of understanding is why it is hard to overcome the problem.


Every relationship has different dynamics. When my wife was pregnant I rejected many of her advances back then because I was under a lot of stress with a new job and having just relocated. Many years later she confessed that she never got over those rejections and struggled to or no longer wanted to initiate when she was in the mood. 

As we worked on things and I struggled to rediscover her sexuality, she totally threw that burden on me and outright would tell me that if I wanted sex that it was my responsibility to get her turned on. She is still that way for the most part today. 

An underlying dynamic in my marriage would be her _resenting_ me for rejecting her when she was pregnant. As a result she gave up on trying to ever initiate again and made me fully responsible for when and if things would ever happen again. 

Meanwhile she has rejected me countless times and I am expected to just get over it and try again later as if that is the norm. She is still that way for the most part today. 

Somehow we manage to make it work out though! I think the OP for the most part is correct and that some people can not handle rejection and are unable (comes across as lazy) to confront that. Perhaps it is often driven by resentment as well which in this context is an extreme form of being passive aggressive (or just lazy to confront the real problem). 

*At the end of the day I have chosen to focus on something positive and try to help her work on improving self confidence. *My wife admits she struggles with that. Things have improved. One could very well say that I have suffered for many years with a lack of understanding that my wife was struggling with this. If there is one thing I am super talented at, it would be my abilities for miscommunication and misunderstanding. 🧐🤔😬🥴

Badsanta


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> To answer the question
> Gag reflex


what, she has gag reflex? and if so, that does not have to stop sex completely. There are still so many things to do...

or that's what get her going?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> what, she has gag reflex? and if so, that does not have to stop sex completely. There are still so many things to do...
> 
> or that's what get her going?












Or are we getting deliciously trolled by the driest possible reply?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

WandaJ said:


> what, she has gag reflex? and if so, that does not have to stop sex completely. There are still so many things to do...
> 
> or that's what get her going?


She reads, predominantly, Shapeshifter romance. So unless I can transform myself into a bear or a wolf or a turtle . . . . 
I can't covertly read her romance because of my gag reflex. 
It's an oversimplification. I did at one point read a series of werewolf stories. More of crime stories than romance. So I'm not totally against shape shifting. But the idea of incorporating this into real sexual exploration. Well I'm just not into furrys.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> She reads, predominantly, Shapeshifter romance. So unless I can transform myself into a bear or a wolf or a turtle . . . .
> I can't covertly read her romance because of my gag reflex.
> It's an oversimplification. I did at one point read a series of werewolf stories. More of crime stories than romance. So I'm not totally against shape shifting. But the idea of incorporating this into real sexual exploration. Well I'm just not into furrys.


ok, got it. That's really weird, even for me, lol


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Cletus said:


> We're damned if we do and damned if we don't. I've been on one side of several arguments where I suggested that, on average and in large numbers, men are more driven by sex than women. It usually ends in me having to bow out to calls of old world thinking and sexism, even when it's objectively provable.
> 
> If it's *true that women are as innately randy as men*, then the remaining reasons for female responsive desire (and let's face it, this label is applied far more to women than to men) would be disinterest or laziness.


I can't speak for all women. I can only tell you that I categorize myself as responsive desire. I am not as randy as most men. THAT however doesn't mean I don't enjoy sex or love my husband. It also doesn't mean I never initiate. What it does mean is things got a whole lot better for my husband once we figured out I was responsive desire. Once you know then it is easier to work around. 

Also many of the problems described here are not responsive desire problems in my opinion but simply marriage problems. Often times emotional connections aren't there, resentment is, avoidance, lack of good sex general incompatibility.

I have sex anywhere from 4-10 times a week. Many times it would be more by hubby can't handle it. So responsive desire is not the same as low libido.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> Sorry I post all over so it is hard to keep track.
> I was prompted by having the misfortune of seeing her interact with a male coworker.


So her disinterest possibly could be situational?


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

I am not trying to highjack your thread Mr. Nail but I have a question.

If a man experiences ED does that mean he isn't doesn't want sex, is low drive, lazy, rejects his partner?
It to me is very similar.
Just like a guy with ED I need a little help getting a hard on. But that doesn't mean I don't enjoy it once it gets going. The main difference is my need a little help is mostly mental. A man's ED is usually mostly physical.

Either way if the other partner gets the motor running good sex can still be had


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

A simple thought: Men and women obviously react differently about many things. Thinking we should react the same creates IMO a lot of problems. Especially with sex. We (generally) can be very far apart there. A few may not be but many are.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Now if a responsive desire person can and does initiate, that is self awareness and a proactive attitude. I also think that a lot of what is labeled responsive desire is just bad relationship habits.

To put it bluntly, if a person can initiate sex without a triggering event, that sounds a lot like spontaneous desire. On the other hand if a person can't respond to initiation without multiple attempts, or extended attempts, or the moon liking up with three stars (j/k sort of) then that is not responsive desire, it's just low desire.

To contrast with @Anastasia6 , she reports 4-10 x per week. Towards the end of last year I had a chat with Mrs. Nail, I thought a goal of 100 x in the next year would be reasonable. She though that there was no way she could work in 2 x per week with a few misses. That's not low desire, That's low priority.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Mr. Nail said:


> To put it bluntly, if a person can initiate sex without a triggering event, that sounds a lot like spontaneous desire.


My wife will initiate sex not when she wants it, but when she thinks I might want it, knowing that she will in the end enjoy herself too.

The triggering event is relationship maintenance, not desire. Just like when I spontaneously bring home flowers.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Anastasia6 said:


> I am not trying to highjack your thread Mr. Nail but I have a question.
> 
> If a man experiences ED does that mean he isn't doesn't want sex, is low drive, lazy, rejects his partner?
> It to me is very similar.
> ...


It is more like the man will enjoy sex if he gets an erection, but in order to get an erection his partner has to inject his penis 2 times with the drug cocktail. Or she has to remind him to take the pill. The difference being that the partner has to go beyond normal caregiving to elicit a response. 

This is where you confuse me. You see, you initiate. That is like the ED man remembering to take his own pill. or doing his own injections. 

I think generally women would think that the man was just lazy if they had to bring him a pill every time they wanted sex.


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## secretsheriff (May 6, 2020)

Here's what's going on:

It's easier to declare something doesn't exist than look in the mirror. The OP wants to be angry with his wife, and in order to do so has has to generalize an entire subset of the population.

And the possibility that he is wrong is too....humbling.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Mr. Nail said:


> It is more like the man will enjoy sex if he gets an erection, but in order to get an erection his partner has to inject his penis 2 times with the drug cocktail. Or she has to remind him to take the pill. The difference being that the partner has to go beyond normal caregiving to elicit a response.
> 
> This is where you confuse me. You see, you initiate. That is like the ED man remembering to take his own pill. or doing his own injections.
> 
> I think generally women would think that the man was just lazy if they had to bring him a pill every time they wanted sex.


I'm not sure I'm being clear here. When I say responsive desire. I mean I can be standing or lying somewhere thinking about who I'm going to get to give quotes to take down the DEAD big oak tree in our FLORIDA yard during HURRICANE season. I might be lying in bed naked. AT this moment I have no desire or thought for sex. 

My husband may reach over and rub my shoulder (that is his beta way of initiating sex which caused lots of missed opportunities many years back because I didn't know this was sex initiation). He might already have a hard on (or he might not). He is thinking about sex, he is turned on. I might or might not be able to stop thinking about the tree that is going to destroy our house if a hurricane makes it here before the tree cutter does. Still not turned on or thinking about sex. BUT I know I am responsive desire so I will turn toward him and position myself better for his hands to reach me (I sleep naked so..) He might spend the next 10 minutes exploring my body while I lie still and try to focus on his hands (forgetting the tree). Letting the touch, the sensation awaken my sleeping sexual being (we call the Kraken). Once she's awake I'll go into full participation mode which could include hands, mouth, toys, girl on top whatever. 

Now here's the thing. He puts in the effort to awaken the Kraken, he doesn't take it personal that I'm lying there enjoying his touch for a few minutes while I get in the mood. He understands that I'm working on turning my brain off so I can have good sex with him. Some men might look at that as lazy or not desiring my husband. Also when I say ED I guess I wasn't talking injection level. He like rubbing on me too, because sometimes he is mental ready but it takes his member a while to respond. If once I'm awake his is having trouble well I will hoover that thing alive.

Second, my husband puts in the time and effort to climax me almost every time. Even if that means finishing with toys. This wasn't always the case because we never talked about it and he didn't realize I wasn't getting mine. And I didn't know there are levels to women's orgasms. When you aren't climaxing or your orgasm is about a 3 on a scale from 1 to 10 that doesn't motivate. But once you've had a 10 or even a regular 8 or 9 then you get a lot more excited about sex. Your remember those so when you are trying to mentally prepare for sex you remember those and get ready for the next. Lastly, once I realized I was responsive two things happened. I could start to look forward to a great orgasm mentally even if my vagina wasn't paying attention which allowed me to initiate because in my brain I knew my body would catch up. Second I started to pay attention to when I was turned on. It turns out if you awaken the Kraken and the orgasm is at a high level, I stay turned on for 12 to 30 hours. So that means I want sex again I'm already turned on. If hubby could handle it we do 3 a day on Saturday and Sunday but he can't. I like to ride the Kraken so to speak, so I'll initiate when I"m still turned on. Keep the steam up. So day after day I might initiate. But if life gets in the way and the Kraken goes back to sleep well he has to start over. 

Lastly, my husbands attitude toward the whole thing encourages me, makes me want him. He doesn't take it personal that I need some warm up time. He doesn't complain that he might give me 30 minutes attention and he might only get 20 minutes. He doesn't take it personal when I do turn him down (and I don't take it personal when he turns me down). He understands my brain and body works different than him. He doesn't take it personal that the 5-10 minutes of penetration isn't enough for me to reach orgasm. He just enjoys sex, and he'll take it as often as his body and my body will allow. Which varies but goes up and down from 4 to 10 times a week. Frankly his body has trouble with 10 times a week. We had sex this morning and I could have ridden the Kraken at lunch but he just couldn't.

So I see (and what I've read) responsive desire is I respond to direct sexual stimulus and might not be traditionally horny. Women need mental stimulus and connection but there is a physical side as well. Way back when I might not feel like sex and we didn't have sex. Though often times I didn't even know that sex was on the table (shoulder rub). At the time it made sense to me that if you weren't horny then you didn't necessarily need to have sex especially if you were already tired, etc... My husband never complained. Also never got more aggressive with his initiation. Once I realized I was responsive. Once we brought in toys which enhanced my orgasms. Things changed dramatically as described above.


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## secretsheriff (May 6, 2020)

> Now here's the thing. He puts in the effort to awaken the Kraken, he doesn't take it personal that I'm lying there enjoying his touch for a few minutes while I get in the mood. He understands that I'm working on turning my brain off so I can have good sex with him. Some men might look at that as lazy or not desiring my husband. Also when I say ED I guess I wasn't talking injection level. He like rubbing on me too, because sometimes he is mental ready but it takes his member a while to respond. If once I'm awake his is having trouble well I will hoover that thing alive.


In other words, your husband acts instead of whines


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

secretsheriff said:


> In other words, your husband acts instead of whines


And I should mention the non-sex. He is the most amazing man I've ever met and he takes care of my emotional needs like no one else. We have an amazing marriage. We never fight, we don't hold resentment. We WANT to spend more time with each other than with anybody else. So there aren't other issues blocking good sex.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

As a counterpoint to Anastasia's post, if not a reply, I looked up this old pot of mine.


Mr. Nail said:


> How can a person get bored during foreplay? It's a fair question. It really has to do with the nature of the sexual relationship. Many women think that foreplay is the process of seduction, excitement, warm up, etc. but to the partner it can feel like a chore list. your version of foreplay looks a whole lot more fun than ours, but to explain how the process of demonstrating affection and seducing can become a BORING CHORE, let me tell you how it works here. Fore play starts with letting Mrs Nail sleep in 1 or 2 hours after I wake up interested. Then catching her in that dreamy wake up period when she is relaxed enough to be receptive. I can't concentrate on either my own arousal, or on some other work, study, or entertainment, because if I miss the prime moment, she will wake up fully and jump to her list of trivial to dos. When I succeed in catching her waking up just right I start by tentatively rubbing one shoulder If she doesn't roll away or sink back into deep sleep, I proceed to deeper and stronger massage. About one in three times she will either offer the other shoulder, or slide off her night clothes for more massage. I continue to work her shoulders, neck and Hair for about 30 minutes. Hopefully She will move into a cuddle during this. Some times she will give me a foot or hand to work on. If she is in a positive mood She may offer her backside. All of this will eventually lead to one of two things: She will get up and pee, Or her love meter will hit full and she will instantly be ready for sex right now. A quick crotch grab will reveal that I'm nowhere near ready, (that was 3 hours ago) and she will sit there wondering how I can possibly be bored doing Foreplay.
> _Edit: I wrote this a few days ago, mostly to illustrate a point that was somehow lost. The process of writing it has stirred up some unpleasant emotions in me. While some people think this story shows what a patient or giving person I am, to me it just makes me look and feel stupid and pathetically needy. This morning (Monday mornings are usually good for her in her work schedule) I started the process only to get smacked and huffed at. Someone here suggested that foreplay was just sex without penetration. If that is true,
> I have some pretty weird tastes in non penetrative sex. I must get off on giving service and masochism. I'm open to the possibility.
> Anyway I'm quite sorry I wrote it as it has done no one any good and I would just remove the paragraph from the post to hide my shame, but the time is past and there may be someone at some time who will "get it". MN_


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Ok I'm confused. Are we talking responsive desire like the Title? Or are we talking about your wife. I don't believe your only issue with your wife is responsive desire. Also I respond to direct sexual stimulus which is usually done after I've decided to have sex.

You are trying to woo your wife and your marriage obviously has other issues.

But you were trying to paint this as a responsive desire issue. You claimed responsive desire didn't exist just lazy, low drive women. I was simply trying to give an example of what I view responsive desire which is low physical sexual desire until direct sexual stimulus is applied.

So let's deal with your issue. She reaches down your aren't ready she is surprised, what happens next?

Also you need to research covert contracts.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

You giving those super duper maximum strength massages in hopes of sex.... You know what's not really foreplay, but a job you have to do to get (possibly) paid with sex, right??


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

BluesPower said:


> I guess that I am just a simpleton. Because like I have said, I just don't get this, and I am really trying.
> 
> My F, and most other woman I have been with, have a great sexual relationship. I cannot be the only man in history that enjoys sex, seems to be fairly good at it I guess, and has had good to great sexual relations with most/all woman I have been with.
> 
> ...


Aren't you pretty tall? Physically fit?

Considered attractive?

I'm trying to come around to the concept that truth for some of us is fiction for others.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

nope, just a counterpoint. Anastasia is showing us what real responsive desire looks like. I'm showing you what poor relationship habits continuing under the guise of responsive desire looks like. Science tells us that somewhere between 30 and 80 % of women have responsive desire. 
The thread title says that responsive desire is a myth (doesn't exist). I'm willing to soften my stance on that at this point. 30% of women having responsive desire is possible. I highly suspect that a good 50 % of women claim to have responsive desire but in fact are just looking for a good excuse. In other words I'm still very suspicious that any particular claimed responsive desire is just smoke.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

@Mr. Nail, I'm just curious. 😬 

Is sex the only problem in your marriage? Do you and your wife actually like one another? Do you do anything together that you both enjoy?

Or has the relationship deteriorated to the point where none of it really matters anymore?

If you were to get a divorce, would you be happy on your own, if you never fell in love again? Would you be better off by yourself than you are now?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

minimalME said:


> @Mr. Nail, I'm just curious. 😬
> 
> Is sex the only problem in your marriage? Do you and your wife actually like one another? Do you do anything together that you both enjoy?
> 
> ...


It is hard for me to say to a veteran of a long term sexless marriage, that a marriage with almost weekly sex has a sex problem. The trouble with sex is a mismatch of frequency. She is sliding towards 2 x per month and I am still holding at every 36 hours. That's frustrating. 
The really big issue in our marriage is lack of intimate conversation. We simply rarely talk and when we do it is about trivial things. This problem is compounded by the romance novel addiction. Instead of spending 15 hours of quality time per week with me, she is spending 20+ hours of wasted time reading what she freely admits is trash. 
If you ask her she will claim that she loves me and never thinks of anyone else. But, the glaring fact is that I am not important enough to her to spend 5 hours a week in quality time.
We don't really do things together except on vacation, and I think that is ending at the next one.
I don't know the answer to the divorce question. I don't think I would feel more alone. When you are married to an addict thought of divorce are thoughts of freedom. When you are married to an addict you need to know that you are not as important as the next fix.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

BTW you say women who say they are responsive desire use it as an excuse. That may or may not be true. I myself didn't even know it existed. Didn't understand how it effected my body or my relationship. You watch movies and girls get all hot and bothered and can't wait to have sex (I'm talking regular movies). You read books and women get all hot and bothered and their wet and ready. Nothing modeled or let me know there were other forms of sexual activities. 



You say you only talk about trivial things. You know for women those count right? Just talking being heard, listening. Those are connection points. If you want better conversation try starting it.

And for intimate conversations those can be hard for certain couples or people. The truth is me and my husband have a great life, great communication, great sex but we rarely talk about sex. My husband is the shy one there. And forget talking in bed.

What exactly do you want to talk about? Why not plan some activities at home? Do you eat dinner together? Do chores together? Go shopping together?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Mr. Nail said:


> ...So I'm not totally against shape shifting. But the idea of incorporating this into real sexual exploration. Well I'm just not into furrys.


@Mr. Nail, you know what's funny? This actually (in a strange way) explains the problem. You are not into furrys. No matter how much someone might try to convince you and ask you to try or even MAKE you try... you aren't into them. It's just not something that gets your motor running nor keeps it running! Yep, some other people may be into furrys, and they may get turned on by furrys, but YOU do not.

It's the same for us. No matter how much someone might try to convince us or ask us to try or even make us try, we just are not spontaneous. That is not what gets and keeps our motor running! And yep, there are some people who ARE spontaneous, and they get turned on spontaneously... those of us with responsive desire do not.

I identify about 1000% with @Anastasia6 's posts. When I'm at work, I focus on work and that's what I'm thinking about--I'm not horny. When it's after work, I usually think about dinner, dishes, walking, talking--I'm not horny. Now, I find @Emerging Buddhist stunningly attractive. I love the man in every possible way. But inside me it doesn't feel like I get REALLY turned on by just being in his (glorious) presence. I DO get turned on when he starts in on me, though! It's not like "Hang on, Honey, let me put my crocheting down"... but rather more like, "OOOOooo... you just kissed me. And woooo a touch!" and pretty soon I'm responding.

What's funny though is that I told him about this thread, and asked if he thought I was responsive desire, and he said no. Know why? Apparently, when I talk to him, I show interest and he considers that initiating! Well...I say! I was gobsmacked to hear that. I never thought of showing interest as equaling initiating sex. But upon reflection I think I see what he means: if I express interest (in him and in sex), then he knows that when he's in a mood to be frisky I want him and will accept him. Like an open invitation, if you will. Inside of me, though, the real RAWR doesn't get started until he gets all flirty, we joke around, and then he STARTS something.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Affaircare said:


> Now, I find @Emerging Buddhist stunningly attractive. I love the man in every possible way. *But inside me it doesn't feel like I get REALLY turned on by just being in his (glorious) presence. I DO get turned on when he starts in on me, though! It's not like "Hang on, Honey, let me put my crocheting down"... but rather more like, "OOOOooo... you just kissed me. And woooo a touch!" and pretty soon I'm responding.*
> 
> What's funny though is that I told him about this thread, and asked if he thought I was responsive desire, and he said no. Know why? Apparently, when I talk to him, I show interest and he considers that initiating! Well...I say! I was gobsmacked to hear that. I never thought of showing interest as equaling initiating sex. But upon reflection I think I see what he means: if I express interest (in him and in sex), then he knows that when he's in a mood to be frisky I want him and will accept him. Like an open invitation, if you will. Inside of me, though, *the real RAWR doesn't get started until he gets all flirty, we joke around, and then he STARTS something*.


QFT


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Personally, I think all of that time you put in on those massages is wasted. Can you wait until she wakes, pees and then entice her back to bed for a massage? When her brain and sensations are firing on all cylinders, she might be able to respond to touch more quickly and enthusiastically. You see you've had 3 hours to think about sex and she's coming from a cold start. It might not be less boring for you, but it might take less time.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

In these responsive desire situations described, the responsive party is very attracted to their partner as an ever present baseline.

I think that needs to be present in cases of actual responsive desire. 

I think in some other situations the "responsive" partner isn't attracted to their partner and use responsive desire as an excuse for some of their sexual behaviors because they don't want to admit they aren't attracted.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> Personally, I think all of that time you put in on those massages is wasted. Can you wait until she wakes, pees and then entice her back to bed for a massage? When her brain and sensations are firing on all cylinders, she might be able to respond to touch more quickly and enthusiastically. You see you've had 3 hours to think about sex and she's coming from a cold start. It might not be less boring for you, but it might take less time.


From reading his posts, I think he has to catch her BEFORE she completely wakes up. Because when she's awake and firing on all cylinders she isn't interested.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Anastasia6 said:


> ...BUT I know I am responsive desire so I will turn toward him and position myself better for his hands to reach me (I sleep naked so..) He might spend the next 10 minutes exploring my body while I lie still and try to focus on his hands (forgetting the tree). Letting the touch, the sensation awaken my sleeping sexual being (we call the Kraken). Once she's awake I'll go into full participation mode...


That was a great and informative post. Hopefully many that read here will appreciate that, even if they don't actively participate in the blog. Let me put this in context with the other side of the story as it is experienced by husbands.

A wife is laying in bed and not thinking about sex, but she recognized her husband was initiating and allowed herself to respond. Perhaps she thinks he was already aroused, but it is very likely he was not. It is most likely that he noticed an opportunity for intimacy and decided to actively try and change the mood to see if he could get himself and his wife aroused. The wife just lays there and lets him do all the initial work. He very wells knows that it will not always work and that after a few minutes his hand may be pushed away and asked to stop. He also knows he has to tamp down his desire and prepare for rejection because these attempts do not lead to sex and sometimes the proverbial tree falling and pending hurricane will now need further discussion. As time goes by the husband never notices the wife trying to make opportunities happen. It only happens once she responds to his touch with arousal that will be a sure thing for the two of them to enjoy (or at least she thinks). Meanwhile it is painfully obvious to the husband that she does not come to him with a soothing touch to make regular attempts to change the mood. It is what it is, and it can make him feel unloved.

Now back to me and my wife. As I would try to make things happen by getting her in the mood. She always assumed I wase in the mood, but I was only mildly so and felt confident that I could make it happen on my end of things. I would be prepared for rejection and initiate when it would not hurt to bad when it was obvious that it was not going to happen. There would be moments she would get in the mood and it was all about her, and I would never get a chance to catch up and nurture my own arousal (because I was responsible for that as well). When I would experience difficulties, my wife would get furious and ask me, "why would you initiate sex if you don't really want it!!!! Never do this again!!!"

So that is where I live today. I live on a street name, "don't ask unless you really want it and it is a sure thing!" My wife expects me to come to her already aroused and easy to please. I actually do a lot of work to manage my libido and make that happen for her. Meanwhile when I initiate she may still push my hands away and continue talking about the tree in the yard that the hurricane might blow into the house because she just can't stop thinking about that. She does not think about everything I took care of in my mind to make try and create an opportunity for us to connect physically as a sure thing, even as she is always stubborn to shift gears in her mind from thinking about random things that distract her from feeling close to me.

When we do have sex it is amazing for her and as well for me. She brags that she gets multiple orgasms while I only get one. She takes all the credit. She even calls me lazy because I end up on the bottom most of the time as she likes to be on top. She feels entitled to making me climax once she is ready for that to happen, and I manage my arousal so that it easily happens this way. In the moment I do not know if I need to wait 30 minutes or be done in 30 seconds until I she indicates she is wanting me to climax. If I do it too early, she get frustrated. 

After years of this it comes across as lazy and just not trying. I am not saying that people with a responsive desire are lazy, I'm just saying perhaps they never pay that much attention to where their partner's desire originated and just assumed it showed up to the party with no effort at all.

Regards,
Badsanta


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

badsanta said:


> That was a great and informative post. Hopefully many that read here will appreciate that, even if they don't actively participate in the blog. Let me put this in context with the other side of the story as it is experienced by husbands.
> 
> A wife is laying in bed and not thinking about sex, but she recognized her husband was initiating and allowed herself to respond. Perhaps she thinks he was already aroused, but it is very likely he was not. It is most likely that he noticed an opportunity for intimacy and decided to actively try and change the mood to see if he could get himself and his wife aroused. The wife just lays there and lets him do all the initial work. He very wells knows that it will not always work and that after a few minutes his hand may be pushed away and asked to stop. He also knows he has to tamp down his desire and prepare for rejection because these attempts do not lead to sex and sometimes the proverbial tree falling and pending hurricane will now need further discussion. As time goes by the husband never notices the wife trying to make opportunities happen. It only happens once she responds to his touch with arousal that will be a sure thing for the two of them to enjoy (or at least she thinks). Meanwhile it is painfully obvious to the husband that she does not come to him with a soothing touch to make regular attempts to change the mood. It is what it is, and it can make him feel unloved.
> 
> ...


You need to show your wife this post. Very forthcoming and well stated.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> You need to show your wife this post. Very forthcoming and well stated.


Oh we have argued on this topic for years. At this point it is what it is and we manage to make it work. 

There are both pros and cons to this situation. I do really enjoy the pros at this point. It would get boring without the challenge, and for me the reward is definitely worth the effort! I mean think about it... I honestly think my wife doesn't know how to get herself aroused all on her own, but I do. So that actually puts me in control. 

Badsanta


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

badsanta said:


> That was a great and informative post. Hopefully many that read here will appreciate that, even if they don't actively participate in the blog. Let me put this in context with the other side of the story as it is experienced by husbands.
> 
> A wife is laying in bed and not thinking about sex, but she recognized her husband was initiating and allowed herself to respond. Perhaps she thinks he was already aroused, but it is very likely he was not. It is most likely that he noticed an opportunity for intimacy and decided to actively try and change the mood to see if he could get himself and his wife aroused. The wife just lays there and lets him do all the initial work.* He very wells knows that it will not always work *and that after a few minutes his hand may be pushed away and asked to stop. He also knows he has to tamp down his desire and prepare for rejection because these attempts do not lead to sex and sometimes the proverbial tree falling and pending hurricane will now need further discussion. As time goes by the husband never notices the wife trying to make opportunities happen. It only happens once she responds to his touch with arousal that will be a sure thing for the two of them to enjoy (or at least she thinks). Meanwhile it is painfully obvious to the husband that she does not come to him with a soothing touch to make regular attempts to change the mood. It is what it is, and it can make him feel unloved.


And there you have a big difference. One I don't usually turn my husband down and two as I said before I only shift over there and encourage him after I've decided to have sex. So he doesn't put effort in to be turned away.

It isn't a try what you want and hope thing. This is why it is important in my opinion to understand responsive desire as the person who has responsive desire as well as the husband.

Your paragraph may have applied to my marriage at some point after my first child was born. With the exception of my husband would just rub my shoulder. We aren't even talking massage. More like a reassuring pat/rub which could easily be taken as a light, I love you see you in the morning. 

You are managing your wife and that's great but you are managing low drive and responsive desire which often can be the same until the responsive desire understands the difference. Right now me and hubby are pretty much on his schedule so to speak not mine.

I believe you have also had more conversations about sex with your wife than I have with my husband. I am not nor was I ever in the horrible position of some man telling me I had to want sex more often or my favorite even if you aren't wanting sex just have sex or at least a BJ anyway to please him. I honestly don't know how I would have reacted to that conversation. I love my husband but there is something about that ........ 

Anyways, I discovered responsive desire, I brought up the idea of toys, I did the change which is probably why it works so well for us. My husband got on board with whatever I wanted which some things I was surprised by. I'm the one that asked one day ideally how often would you like sex. You could have knocked me over with a feather when he said daily. He never once even when we were dating initiated daily. And truth be told I think now that he can get it daily (multiple times daily) he realizes sometimes he doesn't want it daily. I am now in the high drive position because I could do 3 times a day. But I don't ***** or whine or get upset that 3 weeks ago we only did it 4 times that week. It doesn't bother me at all. So I still have trouble wrapping my head around how much some men center their whole lives on if they get sex x times a day or week. Due to responsive desire I can shut it off easily and never have sex again and not really miss it but occasionally.

I think the biggest element missing in many of the posts is you really can't fix the other person.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

badsanta said:


> Oh we have argued on this topic for years. At this point it is what it is and we manage to make it work.
> 
> There are both pros and cons to this situation. I do really enjoy the pros at this point. It would get boring without the challenge, and for me the reward is definitely worth the effort! I mean think about it... I honestly think my wife doesn't know how to get herself aroused all on her own, but I do. So that actually puts me in control.
> 
> Badsanta


This is actually a very big thing. I don't masturbate, It does nothing for me. I have joked with my husband even if we divorce could he still come over for sex. Being responsive desire does put the other person in a lot of control. And since I can't give myself really good orgasms that I like, I kinda keep that in mind


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

This was surprising to me. I'm the opposite. 😳 



Anastasia6 said:


> I don't masturbate,* It does nothing for me.*


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

minimalME said:


> This was surprising to me. I'm the opposite. 😳


Are you responsive desire? I can masturbate. I can achieve maybe a 1 or 2 on the orgasm scale. It is more like my clitoris just get so sensitized it can't take anymore. IT isn't close to satisfying.

Edited to add. Did you catch the thread where the guy was upset because his wife didn't masturbate and think of him while doing it? I mean she just doesn't masturbate. Talk about controlling. Such a turn off.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Anastasia6 said:


> BUT I know I am responsive desire so I will turn toward him and position myself better for his hands to reach me (I sleep naked so..) He might spend the next 10 minutes exploring my body while I lie still and try to focus on his hands (forgetting the tree).


Personally taking steps so that your desire can be activated is not something we hear about in these kinds of stories. Typically, the responsive person just shuts down any attempt to get them in the mood. I suspect that many people would be happy to make the effort to get their partner in the mood if their partner made any indication that they were open to it. But when the responsive person has an endless supply of excuses and dissuading behaviors, their partner gives up. No one wants to feel like they are manipulating or pressuring their partner to have sex. If more responsive people were like you, I doubt many of their partners would be complaining about their situation.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Wow. I'm your polar opposite! 

I consider myself responsive, but maybe I'm not - according to a couple of the men on this thread. 🙄😂

My orgasms on my own are intense and last a long time. With a partner, I've only had a couple of very weak ones. 

And you guys are right - it is about control. Letting go is super hard for me, which is why I love alcohol with sex. To feel uninhibited is amazing.

But I've been pretty nunnish for quite a while, so sober, mind blowing orgasms alone it is! 💓



Anastasia6 said:


> Are you responsive desire? I can masturbate. I can achieve maybe a 1 or 2 on the orgasm scale. It is more like my clitoris just get so sensitized it can't take anymore. *IT isn't close to satisfying.*


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## secretsheriff (May 6, 2020)

badsanta said:


> That was a great and informative post. Hopefully many that read here will appreciate that, even if they don't actively participate in the blog. Let me put this in context with the other side of the story as it is experienced by husbands.
> 
> A wife is laying in bed and not thinking about sex, but she recognized her husband was initiating and allowed herself to respond. Perhaps she thinks he was already aroused, but it is very likely he was not. It is most likely that he noticed an opportunity for intimacy and decided to actively try and change the mood to see if he could get himself and his wife aroused. The wife just lays there and lets him do all the initial work. He very wells knows that it will not always work and that after a few minutes his hand may be pushed away and asked to stop. He also knows he has to tamp down his desire and prepare for rejection because these attempts do not lead to sex and sometimes the proverbial tree falling and pending hurricane will now need further discussion. As time goes by the husband never notices the wife trying to make opportunities happen. It only happens once she responds to his touch with arousal that will be a sure thing for the two of them to enjoy (or at least she thinks). Meanwhile it is painfully obvious to the husband that she does not come to him with a soothing touch to make regular attempts to change the mood. It is what it is, and it can make him feel unloved.
> 
> ...


This is hard, I'm sure.

But it's not a basis for generalization.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

in another upcoming article
The myth of the male spontaneous desire.
Many of the self descriptions of reactive desire sound very day to day familiar to me.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

wilson said:


> Personally taking steps so that your desire can be activated is not something we hear about in these kinds of stories. Typically, the responsive person just shuts down any attempt to get them in the mood. I suspect that many people would be happy to make the effort to get their partner in the mood if their partner made any indication that they were open to it. But when the responsive person has an endless supply of excuses and dissuading behaviors, their partner gives up. No one wants to feel like they are manipulating or pressuring their partner to have sex. If more responsive people were like you, I doubt many of their partners would be complaining about their situation.


Wilson if I could figure that one out I could make a million bucks couldn't I? 

I mean I think I see the problem (even though I haven't completely lived it) many women if a partner just tries to get sex well we are trained from childhood men will try to get you to have sex, all they want is sex, we are also kinda trained to resist them. I mean no one wants to be a floozy (the younger crowd maybe different). And men even though they want sex play into this. I don't want a wife who had sex with 100 men before me right? They of course want to have sex before marriage but they don't want to find out their loved one did lots of sex or one night stands before marriage.

I mean it extends even to rape. We teach young women how not to get raped. Do go in parking lots in the dark alone, don't get drunk, wear a drug bracelet or straw to check for roofies. Go to bars or parties with other people not alone. 

So now we grow up and we find a man who loves us for us. That means he listens, genuinely wants to be around us, wants kids with us the whole nine yards. We love him and we have sex with him. Being responsive desire our bodies just aren't 'turned' on very often. So we don't have sex often because we have sex when we are turned on. We may even have sex when we aren't turned on because we love him. But because we aren't turned on and many women don't orgasm from PIV, sex is ho hum or lets even say she orgasms. (There are huge differences between the men that come here and claim their LD repsonsive wives orgasm everytime and EVERY survey on the subject). 

We have had conflicting messaging from the very beginning of time... I mean there are all the old wives and jokes running around about married couples never having sex, women not orgasming and just doing it for hubby who is always begging (in the wives tale). and then there are movies, books and porn where PIV is supposed to be all you really need to have explosive orgasms.

So hubby has the talk. I want more sex, we don't have sex enough. I think this point right here is where it really goes off the rails. I mean no the man we separated from the pack as the one who loves us and such is back to the I just want to get in your pants. Particularly when the I will divorce you if the sex doesn't improve. Oh and I want the sex to be passionate (no **** so do I but really now you are just asking me to fake it or do porn sex) so now the woman is more like a sex worker. You put in your order and whala or else. So now sex becomes something that mentally is a turn off as well as my body wasn't turned on to begin with. Because if you don't understand responsive desire you are essentially asking someone who isn't in the mood to have sex with you just because you want them to (and many throw in the or else I will divorce you). The sex for the woman starts to feel very controlling and subversive. At some point she resents this or flat out decides to refuse. So now the marriage is in a worse spot than before I think. 

Just like no one wants to feel like they are manipulating their partner into sex. No one wants to feel like they are being subverted or coerced into sex.

If I could figure out how to get the responsive desire person to recognize responsive desire and accept that they like sex, and that if they choose sex even when not turned on that the sex will be good and they will enjoy it so choosing it is good from them and not just a sacrifice for the marriage well that would be a start.

I can tell you that I for a long time did not express to my husband the ho hum of our sex. Why would I want to hurt his feelings? He didn't last long enough for me to orgasm (and I'm not sure PIV alone would work. But I didn't say to him hey last longer. Once we started other things at first I was dismayed that for it to work in general we had to spend some time that was me only. That felt wrong, weird and not fair to him. But he made it plain it was ok. He also felt bad for the years that I probably didn't get many orgasms. I've never quantified for him the exact lack but he has figure out it was many times no O for me. I also don't think many men can handle what works for us.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

But the thing about spontaneous desire in men is that that wasn't a priority for me - when I was having sex.

I didn't expect or desire an instant erection, because I genuinely enjoyed playing for the sake of playing. An erection/orgasm wasn't a goal or an ego boost, yet that's what my orgasm seemed to be for men.



Mr. Nail said:


> in another upcoming article
> The myth of the male spontaneous desire.
> Many of the self descriptions of reactive desire sound very day to day familiar to me.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

minimalME said:


> An erection/orgasm wasn't a goal or an ego boost, *yet that's what my orgasm seemed to be for men.*


I’m sure it is an ego boost for some men. But I see it as my responsibility (not the right word, but you get the idea). She’s responsive, can no longer orgasm from PiV, manages to O maybe only 50% of time, yeah I’m going try to make sure she gets hers. It’s not about my ego, it’s just it ain’t happening if it’s not my goal.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I write this with respect and affection - you're a unicorn. 🙂 

I don't remember anyone ever showing genuine interest in my pleasure, taking the time to enjoy my body, wanting to learn how my body works.

Just having fun in bed seems like an impossible request. 



CharlieParker said:


> I’m sure it is an ego boost for some men. But I see it as my responsibility (not the right word, but you get the idea). She’s responsive, can no longer orgasm from PiV, manages to O maybe only 50% of time, yeah I’m going try to make sure she gets hers. It’s not about my ego, it’s just it ain’t happening if it’s not my goal.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Anastasia6 said:


> This is actually a very big thing. I don't masturbate, It does nothing for me. I have joked with my husband even if we divorce could he still come over for sex. Being responsive desire does put the other person in a lot of control. And since I can't give myself really good orgasms that I like, I kinda keep that in mind


Your responses and insight and great! In sincerely find them thought provoking and it helps me see things from another perspective. 

If you don't mind me playing devil's advocate for a moment... What if you could self explore and enjoy self pleasuring much more? What if you could discover new things about yourself and then share that with your husband in a way that allowed him to take things exponentially further? 

I remember reading somewhere once about a woman in reversed roles where it was the husband that was a bit reserved and he depended on her to do everything. She often purchased toys, explored with them solo until she discovered what worked, and then would incorporate it into partnered use with her husband. She commented that with any new toy that it would often take her a while to figure out the sensations and her first attempts would more than often fail. With a little practice she eventually discovered the best way to use them and would then be able to give clear advice to her husband once he was in charge of a new toy/novelty. One rather hilarious idea was that she discovered one toy was immensely more fun when used backwards. She would set that up for her husband and he would get confused and turn it to the correct way thinking she had fumbled in the heat of the moment. Once she stopped and explained that the novelty was better when use it backwards, then kaboom! For reference it was one of that rabbit vibrators that hit both the g-spot and clitoris at the same time. She preferred it on her g-spot and anus while avoiding the clitoris as this prevented her from becoming over sensitive thus enabling out-of-this-world trips to the moon (pun intended). 

My point here is that *masturbation does not always come easy. *Sometime it requires a lot of patience to work things out. The trial and error process of solo exploration also tends to work a lot faster and can make way more progress than partnered trial and error in my opinion. 

Just a different point of view. Perhaps this sheds some light on why some men might get upset when they discover that the wife doesn't masturbate. It is because he has likely done a ton of work to discover himself and save his wife the pain of trail and error. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> Aren't you pretty tall? Physically fit?
> 
> Considered attractive?
> 
> I'm trying to come around to the concept that truth for some of us is fiction for others.


I am OK looking for my age. Not nearly as pretty as I used to be. I am relatively fix, no fatty for sure, but I could still loose 20 more, which I am working on. 

I am not as fit as I used to be. After doing a day of really physical labor, it takes a day or two to recover. 

When I play a gig for 4 hours, I am just beat the next day. 

But I am not sure what you are saying a 100%. I already understand that lots of people, guys and girls, are sexually insecure or don't feel good about themselves. 

Hell, my F, says that she was that way before she met me, and she had NO reason to feel that way. Even at 60 she is a beauty, and she is great in bed. She says that I make her feel comfortable, and I have no idea why. I am just deep in love and I want to bang her brains out. Pretty simple as far as I am concerned. 

That is the way that we are supposed to feel, right?


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Anastasia6 said:


> So hubby has the talk. I want more sex, we don't have sex enough. I think this point right here is where it really goes off the rails. I mean no the man we separated from the pack as the one who loves us and such is back to the I just want to get in your pants. Particularly when the I will divorce you if the sex doesn't improve.


I totally agree with this. As people get into this situation, they don't really understand it. Frustrations develop and they approach it from anger and resentment. That causes the couple to get entrenched in battle positions and get scarred from the discussions. By the time they figure out the problem and get a better understanding, they have so much additional hurt to work through that it makes it that much harder. By the time people come to TAM, it's pretty late and may be impossible to get back to a loving place where the responsive person is willing to put themselves in a position for desire to develop.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

badsanta said:


> Your responses and insight and great! In sincerely find them thought provoking and it helps me see things from another perspective.
> 
> If you don't mind me playing devil's advocate for a moment... What if you could self explore and enjoy self pleasuring much more? What if you could discover new things about yourself and then share that with your husband in a way that allowed him to take things exponentially further?


Just answering not upset or anything. Here's my perspective.

You see to this to me seems very pressury or weird to me. I see sex as something I do with my loved one. I enjoy sex with my husband. I have tried masturbation. I have in the past maturbated. It simply isn't something that I want to do or find much joy in. So this would be him pressuring me to engage in an activity that I don't enjoy so that he doesn't have to explore with me?

My husband has at different times left me a quivering mass of flesh on the bed from his explorations. Literally unable to speak or move for several minutes from the depth and breath of the orgasm. Masturbation just doesn't compare nor can I accomplish that on my own but wouldn't really want to. I like orgasms, but I love my husband. I save my sexual energy for him. If that means there are times I'd like sex but don't get it. So be it. It just doesn't bother me. Only once have I been so horny it actually hurt. 

And your suggestion that men have explored their sexuality to make the road easier makes me want to throw up a little in my mouth. Men do these things because there is some truth to the prevailing myth that men only want sex. They want release, they want an orgasm. And most men I've ever had sex with (limited experience) hasn't shared any of their findings anyway.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

BluesPower said:


> I am OK looking for my age. Not nearly as pretty as I used to be. I am relatively fix, no fatty for sure, but I could still loose 20 more, which I am working on.
> 
> I am not as fit as I used to be. After doing a day of really physical labor, it takes a day or two to recover.
> 
> ...


I don't want to side track this thread too much even though what I'm talking about is related. I also don't know that it warrants it's own thread.

I'm coming around to the idea, slowly but surely, that the way women behave around some men is quite different than others and I know that sounds like "Duh!" but it really didn't occur to me for a long time.

The perspective of how women behave sexually is very different from man to man thus giving us differing realities.

What is every day behavior around one man might be purely fiction for another.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> I don't want to side track this thread too much even though what I'm talking about is related. I also don't know that it warrants it's own thread.
> 
> I'm coming around to the idea, slowly but surely, that the way women behave around some men is quite different than others and I know that sounds like "Duh!" but it really didn't occur to me for a long time.
> 
> ...


I didn't realize this was a secret.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Anastasia6 said:


> I didn't realize this was a secret.


I was pretty much clueless until one of the ladies of TAM let me in on it.😉


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> nope, just a counterpoint. Anastasia is showing us what real responsive desire looks like. I'm showing you what poor relationship habits continuing under the guise of responsive desire looks like. Science tells us that somewhere between 30 and 80 % of women have responsive desire.
> The thread title says that responsive desire is a myth (doesn't exist). I'm willing to soften my stance on that at this point. 30% of women having responsive desire is possible. I highly suspect that a good 50 % of women claim to have responsive desire but in fact are just looking for a good excuse. In other words I'm still very suspicious that any particular claimed responsive desire is just smoke.


I don’t understand where these imagined numbers could be coming from.

I have no reason to doubt a woman who says generally she does not feel a desire to have sex, but after her partner initiates, the physical and mental engagement leads to physical/mental sexual arousal and that in turn leads to desire — desire to continue, perhaps to climatic resolution.

No reason to doubt a man who reports the same. In fact, in my daily sanity program for one (tm), I often experience that myself, silently, in my head, alone...That is, I may not feel much desire at that moment, but think I might as well give it a try while I have the opportunity, so that I won’t feel the more stinging aspects of my sexless marriage throughout my day when there is zero opportunity to take the edge off.

Respectfully, you sound too sure of what is in other people’s heads. Feels possible you have an agenda driving your thinking, one unknown to you. Maybe. Just a thought.

Speaking of hidden agendas, I’ll add that I’m pretty sure my wife has never heard of responsive desire, probably experiences it (she certainly can have sex, and achieve orgasm, even with me; cannot remember last time she initiated it, let alone excitedly). Yet, I really doubt she’d bother to try to leverage responsive desire as an “excuse”, if she was familiar with the term. For her, at this point, no need to have an excuse it seems.

Lots of things can be leveraged to avoid/shutdown or to engage/build-connection. Things both real and imagined. Which avoidance/engagement actually occurs tells you more about the person doing the leveraging, than the nature of the “thing” itself.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Anastasia6 said:


> Now here's the thing. He puts in the effort to awaken the Kraken, he doesn't take it personal that I'm lying there enjoying his touch for a few minutes while I get in the mood. He understands that I'm working on turning my brain off so I can have good sex with him. Some men might look at that as lazy or not desiring my husband...


Those “some men” are hard for me to imagine. Everyone’s context is different.

In my context, I would view a partner open to having her Kraken awakened as a a loving, giving, life-affirming partner to be treasured.

Your husband understands that is what you are doing because that is who you’ve shown yourself to be, repeatedly and consistently I’d guess.

Someone who has experienced rejection as a way of life for more than a decade reasonably concludes his partner does not desire him “enough”, or worse.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

secretsheriff said:


> In other words, your husband acts instead of whines


@anastatia6’s is living the dream. What could he possibly have to whine about.

There is no action to be taken, in many situations folks are in. Not sure what whining you are suggesting people might be doing?


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

PieceOfSky said:


> Those “some men” are hard for me to imagine. Everyone’s context is different.
> 
> In my context, I would view a partner open to having her Kraken awakened as a a loving, giving, life-affirming partner to be treasured.
> 
> ...


Absolutely. There are several questions at this stage. 
Do the husband rubbing already have the green light for sex. Mine knows he does. Because if it isn't happening I would have already told him that without worrying about him being devastated. He takes it in stride (just like I do). Second many men have already spoiled the landscape by pressuring their wives so she isn't in the moment enjoying this touch she is dreading his expectations. If he doesn't have the green light for sex she maybe trying to figure out how to tell him sex isn't happening, or worrying about the fight it is going to cause. Or is her response porn enough because he has also complained about her not being passionate enough. Or is this the one that will cause the divorce. 

In other words, her mind still hasn't turned off, it is racing with a million thoughts which means the stimulation isn't going to turn her on anyway. It is also when she might be worried do I smell? Which underwear am I wearing? Does this light make me look fat? Am so old compared to those porn stars. Why does he want to force me to have sex? Am I just a cum dump? I'm not in the mood but he just expects. He'll get mad if I don't. Well screw him. I'm mad that he is always pressuring me for sex. NOT my personal thoughts but stringing together things that I've read. This doesn't even touch on those subliminal message society sends us that I was talking about earlier. The thing is unless I specifically work to turn my brain off and allow my body to be turned on then the rest of the experience just isn't going to be great. Imagine having sex while not really turned on and thinking about the house insurances deductible for a tree coming through the house while there is an active depression 7 days out and you can't get a decent quote from a tree person to take it down. Do you really think that is going to be a great event for me? If the responsive desire person doesn't 'get' how this effects them, I think it would be hard for anyone to just fix it. So the man is left baffled and angry. But he also isn't understanding the dynamic and work which is why/how I think sometimes they make it so much worse sometimes irreparable.

Also my hubby used to stroke my shoulder or such. That may work for some women, just a waste of time for me. I respond to direct stimulation, breast, clit, vag, butt and ass.

I think for many there are more issues than just responsive desire. I think if a women know about responsive desire and accepts that it is step one. But having a loving open relationship with someone you trust to love you helps. Most people don't really trust their loved ones to love them. That's a chicken and an egg scenario. Which came first people in general letting us know if we don't do certain things, behave a certain way, look a certain way they reject us. Or our inability to just trust people not to reject us. Just scroll through this website. You can find a man who doesn't find his wife attractive because of her boob size, another who visited a prostitute for years because his otherwise stellar wife wouldn't perform oral, another who is unhappy that his wife isn't active..... I am focusing on male stories here because it is usually women who are responsive desire.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> ...
> 
> To contrast with @Anastasia6 , she reports 4-10 x per week. Towards the end of last year I had a chat with Mrs. Nail, I thought a goal of 100 x in the next year would be reasonable. She though that there was no way she could work in 2 x per week with a few misses. That's not low desire, That's low priority.


Why does it have to be either/or? Why can’t it be both low desire and low priority?

Again guessing — in my case, it was blissful for me in the beginning because even if there was low or no desire experienced by her, stakes were high enough for her there was sufficient priority to give me affection and sex that meant a lot to me. Now, not so much. Now, the stakes are not high (almost empty nesters), and there are other inhibiting factors such as years of resentment and disappointment.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

POS do you have a thread about your wife?
When she was giving you affection and sex did she feel the sex was the most important thing to you? Meaning she really wasn't? Have you had the frequency talk? passion?


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

I would say there was the year after my child was born (many years ago so stretching my memory a bit). I don't think my husband got very much sex at all. There were reasons but looking back now I feel bad. But mostly I feel more love then ever because he never once said a word, treated me unkindly and the truth is if he had known that when sex restarted every second of it was painful he would have stopped. But he has shown I'm his love.

Once I discovered my responsive desire and really good orgasms I actually got mad that I hadn't discovered this years earlier. I mean we are now limited by age, weight, physical conditioning. Back then who knows what kind and quality of sex we could have had.

Edited to add: I know it often times doesn't change but sometimes it does. We have more sex now then we ever did in the first years of marriage.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Anastasia6 said:


> I would say there was the year after my child was born (many years ago so stretching my memory a bit). I don't think my husband got very much sex at all. There were reasons but looking back now I feel bad. But mostly I feel more love then ever because he never once said a word, treated me unkindly and the truth is if he had known that when sex restarted every second of it was painful he would have stopped. But he has shown I'm his love.
> 
> Once I discovered my responsive desire and really good orgasms I actually got mad that I hadn't discovered this years earlier. I mean we are now limited by age, weight, physical conditioning. Back then who knows what kind and quality of sex we could have had.
> 
> Edited to add: I know it often times doesn't change but sometimes it does. We have more sex now then we ever did in the first years of marriage.


A little more communication and assertiveness on his part could have gone a long way earlier.

I'm loving but more demanding.

Still glad you two got there.😉


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> A little more communication and assertiveness on his part could have gone a long way earlier.
> 
> I'm loving but more demanding.
> 
> Still glad you two got there.😉


communication yes. demanding not sure how that would have played out. Like I explained a few missives ago that can go horribly wrong as well. It's all in the approach and reception.

Edited to add: No amount of assertiveness would have made my vaginal opening bigger or less scarred.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Anastasia6 said:


> communication yes. demanding not sure how that would have played out. Like I explained a few missives ago that can go horribly wrong as well. It's all in the approach and reception.
> 
> Edited to add: No amount of assertiveness would have made my vaginal opening bigger or less scarred.


Just going off your insight into having better sex earlier.

I'm a way different animal but very loving and probably more concerned with Mrs. C's health than she is.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> Just going off your insight into having better sex earlier.
> 
> I'm a way different animal but very loving and probably more concerned with Mrs. C's health than she is.


oh I get it.
I'm just saying each person male and female is different and much of society has programmed negative connotations for sex in womens minds. So demanding has a fine line which can go right or wrong. And that depends on it's participants and previous experiences.

That's why I think it is so hard to solve the puzzle for many couples. And let's face it. Some of the men are actually more interested in sex than their wives. Some women did marry for money and don't even like the man. Those aren't responsive desire issues either. but often times get blamed on LD or RD


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Anastasia6 said:


> Just answering not upset or anything. Here's my perspective....
> 
> ...your suggestion that men have explored their sexuality to make the road easier makes me want to throw up a little in my mouth. Men do these things because there is some truth to the prevailing myth that men only want sex. They want release, they want an orgasm. And most men I've ever had sex with (limited experience) hasn't shared any of their findings anyway.


OK, you and the OP may find this interesting to debate. You find the notion of a man engaged in self-sexual exploration to be something that tends to disgust you perhaps to the point of throwing up as you described. 

THAT is very different from being lazy or lacking self confidence if you choose that same reason to avoid your own self exploration or have no inclination to enjoy it. Many people have various levels of "sexual disgust" and that perhaps makes them seem lazy to someone with a different perspective such as the OP. 

A book written by a female with a PHD in human sexuality keeps a bowl in her office filled with goodies. You find something that looks similar to different colored candies and I think the packaging indicates the flavor of each one. As people come into her office and explore this bowl almost everyone assumes it is candy as ask if it is OK to have one. As soon as they are told that the bowl contains samples of flavored sexual lubricants and they are encouraged to take some, about 50% of people yank their hands away in disgust. The other half dig in and take a few samples. So you can't say that the people that yank their hands away have low self confidence or are lazy, instead they yanked away out of experiencing sexual disgust. 

That is what it is. 

If you want to read about that try reading, "Come as You Are" Emily Nagoski 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

badsanta said:


> OK, you and the OP may find this interesting to debate. You find the notion of a man engaged in self-sexual exploration to be something that tends to disgust you perhaps to the point of throwing up as you described.
> 
> Regards,
> Badsanta


LOL it isn't the idea of male self exploration that did it. It is a man (not any man playing as a partner) saying I need to self explore so that he'll know what to do. I prefer mutual exploration. It goes back to how some things are seen or interpreted differently for men and women. A man (that I'm involved with) telling me to self explore especially if they know I"m not into masturbation seems like trying to make me into something I'm not. It makes me feel like he doesn't want to explore with me or that it is too bothersome to play together. 

Just giving a perspective. I think lots of the problems we see on this board start with miscommunication and men and women not understanding how sex is perceived differently.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

PieceOfSky said:


> Lots of things can be leveraged to avoid/shutdown or to engage/build-connection. Things both real and imagined. Which avoidance/engagement actually occurs tells you more about the person doing the leveraging, than the nature of the “thing” itself.


Ester Perel’s book Mating in Captivity turns the responsive desire back on women by questioning the construct that men are 100% responsible for creating desire and women are bystanders in their sexuality. She turned it around on women by asking what women are doing to turn themselves on but MORE importantly she had them fill in the blank with “I turn myself OFF by...”. For example “I turn myself off by checking Facebook in bed”. Men are guilty too... “I turn myself off my playing Call of Duty 4 hours a day”

Granted, some women are like a web browser with 130 tabs open that have to close before you just have the sex tab open. But I think Perel’s point was women are responsible for the number of tabs and how quick they can close them. Putting it all on men and saying “I have responsive desire” is not an accurate description of what is happening in most cases.

Part of the RD thing seems to be it’s a series of walls that are linked to: level of hormones, sexual history, level of emotional avoidance, self-image and emotional engagement elsewhere. High testosterone = ongoing desire. Sexual history that includes trauma, poor lovers, shame = suppression of sex drive, avoidance = fear intimacy, self-image = not comfortable being in there, engagement = focused elsewhere (work, kids, body image). 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

aaarghdub said:


> Ester Perel’s book Mating in Captivity turns the responsive desire back on women by questioning the construct that men are 100% responsible for creating desire and women are bystanders in their sexuality. She turned it around on women by asking what women are doing to turn themselves on but MORE importantly she had them fill in the blank with “I turn myself OFF by...”. For example “I turn myself off by checking Facebook in bed”. Men are guilty too... “I turn myself off my playing Call of Duty 4 hours a day”
> 
> Granted, some women are like a web browser with 130 tabs open that have to close before you just have the sex tab open. But I think Perel’s point was women are responsible for the number of tabs and how quick they can close them. Putting it all on men and saying “I have responsive desire” is not an accurate description of what is happening in most cases.
> 
> ...


Intriguing. This is good stuff.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> A next case is my wife. She also thinks she has reactive desire. But in reality she has low desire. Sex, closeness, or even romance are not worth the effort. She isn't interested. Now if I am willing to *invest a half hour in massage time*, she will suddenly have desire. But not really She still isn't interested, but since the work is all done, she is willing to go along for the ride. In the misquoted words of hallmark, She doesn't care enough to send the very best. She only cares enough for a minimum effort participation.
> 
> Another common situation is the "The man should . . ." case. In this situation one partner feels that the other partner should do something (*bring flowers, wash dishes, plan date, whatever*) and then they can give themselves permission to desire. Because saying "the man should" sounds terribly sexist and un liberating, the non desiring partner simply declares themselves reactive. They are not reactive, They are controlling.


What is there to respond to sexually when the bolded you mention is not that sexual to begin with?

Seriously a massage done well is a great way to make someone feel so relaxed that they're much more likely to want sleep than have sex.

Likewise flowers, dishes, planning dates and the like, aren't the kind of things that stir a woman sexual desire either.

There simply isn't anything in the above to generate much if any sexual arousal/desire at all.


...


If you're wanting any responsive sexual desire with a sexual partner, some through all of the following tends to go a long way.

*In no particular order:*

Looking a woman in the eye in a sexually suggestively way.

touching them on the back of the neck in a way that makes their hairs stand up.

Kissing them on the lips with a measure of sexual desire not to much but just enough to stir, then smiling and letting them go.

Followed by kissing them again at some point later on, but with a little more offered in the kissing.

Caressing their behind lightly at first, then letting them be.

Followed by caressing their behind again, yet being a bit more bold and gripping them from below then letting them go.

Likewise touching a woman's breasts and nipples can go a long way as well. While keeping in mind that I light touch is sometimes more, when at other times a more assertive approach is sometimes more.

Some verbal flirting of course, so tap dance around with innuendo on occasion and at other times be bold and direct.

Asking them to show you their knickers, bum, boobs, and any other pink bits you want to see. Likewise sometimes it goes a long way to tell them to show you, and if they are hesitant, tell them "go on you want me to see" or any other banter you come up with.

Tell her you want her for sex. Or when asked or told you only want them for sex, agree with them that you only want them for it.

Make them laugh. Joy and laughter can be quite exciting as well. So sometimes lead with fun, and mix things up with it as well.

Don't forget looking at them in the eyes and doing more delicious kissing.

Sometimes it is nice to kiss them passionately with some tongue, although keeping in mind that it helps to avoid too much sloppiness. Variation is a nice thing.

Telling them how you are going to have them sexually, sometimes more subtly and sometimes while being very explicit with detail. It's good to mix it up and keep things fresh.

Sometimes it's nice after doing such things to come up from behind and start kissing a woman on the back of the neck, followed by bending them forward to pull aside their clothing and to touch them on their vulva and the like for a little bit before carrying on or stopping and letting them go.

On and on etc.

If they say no, not now, get off etc, smile then give them another kiss and tell them they're missing out. Or tell them, they will have fun when you have them later and the like etc.


...


Now this kind of thing goes a long way if done frequently although not necessarily everyday, yet often enough, so some days in a row, sometimes more sometimes less, sometimes leaving off as well. So it becomes more exciting again after a time. Plus this kind of flirting is something done through a day or in the morning to start with, followed by more in the afternoon and evening vice-versa etc.

There is so much that one can do to generate responsive sexual desire in a woman. Yet the main point is, one has to do things that create sexual arousal in order to get that response.

Also note cuddles in and of themselves aren't especially sexual either, so remember cuddles though nice aren't about sex (that doesn't mean don't cuddle at all). Yet do lots of eyes, flirt at times, and do kisses aplenty. While not forgetting that touching someones pink bits and their behind over the clothes, or with the clothes pulled aside and with the clothes pulled off, tends to stimulate sexual desire with someone who wants to be ones sexual partner.


...


At the end of the day if one wants to encourage a decent sexual response from their sexual partner, one ought to do things that are sexually arousing. Which is something that isn't achieved by giving someone flowers or a back rub.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I think the problem is some is these marriages is that the wives absolutely so NOT want their spouse doing any of these sexual/ sensual things to them and shut it down.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

After my largely sexless first marriage where I did all the initiating and was usually turned down, I could never again be in a relationship with someone who doesn't initiate and love having sex. That first marriage was damaging, and it took me a long time to get over it. I also thought about the future, when my spontaneous desire might start to fade, and it might take active participation from my partner to get aroused. If my partner was RD (I am convinced this is a real thing), or didn't actively participate once aroused, sex would rarely happen if at all, and that wasn't an acceptable future for me. Fortunately for me, I found a great partner who also had spontaneous desire and acted on it. Twenty years later and now in our 60s, spontaneous desire is fading a little, and we _both_ need to work at this - and are always glad we do.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Personal said:


> If you're wanting any responsive sexual desire with a sexual partner, some through all of the following tends to go a long way.


It that works for you (or anyone) and you are content to do this for the entire relationship, then great! With my ex, those things didn't work very well, even when done consistently. Given the amount of effort required, it was far easier - and better - to find someone else with spontaneous desire. I was done jumping through hoops for someone who really didn't appreciate me or my efforts.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> Given the amount of effort required, it was far easier - and better - to find someone else with spontaneous desire. I was done jumping through hoops for someone who really didn't appreciate me or my efforts.


What effort?

Kissing, fondling and the like are fun to do.

That said if someones partner is loathe to have sex with them, I'm all for that person not hesitating in having sex with those who want to have sex with them whether they get divorce or not.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Personal said:


> What effort?
> 
> Kissing, fondling and the like are fun to do.
> 
> That said if someones partner is loathe to have sex with them, I'm all for that person not hesitating in having sex with those who want to have sex with them whether they get divorce or not.


Sure, kissing, fondling, and the line are fun to do, but not fun at all fun when you are the ONLY PERSON doing these things, ever, in your relationship... and when those things are batted away by your partner.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

And, truthfully, some men just aren’t very good at those things. They’re awkward or uncomfortable or embarrassed or shy or can’t be playful or don’t think those things are important or whatever. Could that be learned? Potentially. But it also may just not be in their personality to do those things. And that is sometimes the complicating factor in their relationship with their wives. Do you have to be a perfect specimen of a man to make your wife want you? Hardly. But it does help to be fairly good at the game of seduction. Will it work on every woman? No, but it might just work on yours.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Livvie said:


> Sure, kissing, fondling, and the line are fun to do, but not fun at all fun when you are the ONLY PERSON doing these things, ever, in your relationship... and when those things are batted away by your partner.


Exactly. And that is an indication of a larger problem. That is more like no desire.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Personal said:


> What effort?
> 
> Kissing, fondling and the like are fun to do.
> 
> That said if someones partner is loathe to have sex with them, I'm all for that person not hesitating in having sex with those who want to have sex with them whether they get divorce or not.


They are fun. When even that's rejected, it's time to move on. And it is effort to sustain most of these behaviors unless they are welcomed and there is a decent response rate. Otherwise, the lack of spontaneous affection from my partner (never mind sex) is a deal breaker for me.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Maybe there should be two different terms: *responsive* desire and *reluctant *desire. For example, here's the difference when asking a coworker to go to lunch:

Responsive desire:
You: Do you want to go to lunch?​Them: Sure.​​Reluctant desire:
You: Do you want to go to lunch?​Them: Hmmm. I'm just too busy​You: Come on. It'll be fun to get out of the office.​Them: Where are you going?​You: We can go anywhere you like​Them: Who else is going?​etcetcetcroundandround​Them: Ok, I'll go.​(time passses)​Them: That was fun. Thanks for the invite.​​Most of the stories we get on TAM I would classify as reluctant desire. The person has put up many impediments to intimacy and puts all the burden for overcoming those on their partner. I see responsive desire more like someone may not necessarily feel sexual on their own, but is generally open to it when their partner initiates. A spouse really shouldn't complain if their partner is more like this definition of responsive desire. But if their partner is actively making things harder and not taking steps to help things along, that is a problem situation.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

I consider myself responsive desire. What I mean by that is that my lover can initiate at a time when I’m not thinking about or wanting sex at all, but once I know he wants me, it awakens those feelings in me. All it takes is a certain look or a nice kiss, etc. That’s not to say I never initiate but I won’t lie, I initiate a lot less often than my boyfriend does. My clock resets slower than his does is probably the reason. 

And being responsive doesn't mean Ive never said no. But, if the relationship is in good standing, I generally don’t, except for the occasional medical reason. I’ve had 4 serious relationships. First guy I was madly, deeply in love with and I never once turned him down and would have done anything he asked of me even if it sleeved me out. (Which some things did but now I’m very grateful to him for normalizing them, even if he did turn out to be a cheating POS.) 

Second guy had BPD and was very narcissistic. I never turned him down at first but once the relationship started to deteriorate I couldn’t muster up the feelings needed at times so I would turn him down despite the fact that we were extremely compatible in bed. My exH, well, I didn’t start turning him down until his initiations were so pathetic it was obvious he didn’t really mean it. He didn’t want me and so I couldn’t muster up any desire in return, even though I was burning pretty badly there at the end of our marriage. 

Current boyfriend I’ve never turned down in our year together. He’s another one I think I’d do almost anything for because he just inspires that in me. We have such fun together, both in and out of bed. He makes sure I know every day how he feels about me and how much he needs me. And it definitely helps that he is the guy I’m the most compatible with in bed. He rocks my world in that department and that makes me want very much to rock his world right back. It also doesn’t hurt that he knows that I won’t say no and doesn’t take advantage of that...ie. initiate when he knows I’m beyond exhausted from a night shift from hell for example. He’ll feed me and tuck me in instead, despite my protests that I don’t need to sleep. which just makes me feel more loved. He knows what I need sometimes more than I do.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Anastasia6 said:


> POS do you have a thread about your wife?
> When she was giving you affection and sex did she feel the sex was the most important thing to you? Meaning she really wasn't? Have you had the frequency talk? passion?


The most recent thread about my situation is here: Talk About Marriage
It’s not a pleasant read, but you asked .

My first thread is at Talk About Marriage

If I understand the gist of your question, my answer would be sex has meant different things to her and I since the beginning, 27 years ago. For me it was about feeling loved and giving love, as well as a wonderful pleasure. For her, she literally said it was just about physical pleasure. I was a 26yo virgin when we started dating, and thought maybe I was naive about the ways of the world. She had had substantially long sexual relationships. At the time, I felt maybe I was the weirdly unreasonable one, too needy for love and sex. I see now we just were not compatible in that way.

The night we got engaged, I recall sensing she gave into having sex because she thought she ought to, rather than joy about the permanent partnership we had just agreed to. (We had been sexually active for six months prior.)

Our wedding night, four years later, I recall she made a comment that she wanted me to be able to have sex that night, like it was just for my benefit, that she herself could have gone without. Felt loving at the time, but again, in retrospect, perhaps an indication of us not being the same when it came to desire and sex.

Over the last five years or so ago, I’ve heard her say multiple times she could go the rest of her life without ever having sex with me again, or with anyone else. That it is just one more chore.

Trying to make that relevant to this thread, I’d say if she had had more inherit desire (driven by testosterone, progesterone and estrogen ratios?), and fewer inhibitions (those walls mentioned a bit earlier by others) a better attitude (her resentment towards me was so high she consciously withheld sex and did not tell me for years), then some of the damage that has occurred during our struggles with sexual issues might not have happened.

I do think it is likely her LD and/or RD traits have a hormonal/otherwise-physical factor in their genesis. But changing her level of desire, or adapting to it to make a happy life together despite the mismatch — well, that hasn’t happened for a variety of reasons not inherent in LD or RD.

People play the hands they are dealt differently, according to their effort and intention. And it makes all the difference.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I have to ask PieceOfSky — why, seven years after that thread, are you still with her? Fear of the unknown? Something else?


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Openminded said:


> I have to ask PieceOfSky — why, seven years after that thread, are you still with her? Fear of the unknown? Something else?


Sky comes across to me as very kind and empathetic, and I wish nothing other than best for him.

I’d ask, respectfully, didn’t you plan on filing? What changed? (I may have asked, or deleted before posting, sorry if I hit send and don’t recall the answer.)


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

I did not have a chance to read all posts on this thread, but I can tell you I always considered by wife reactive desire (based on MC and books), and then she went on testosterone for a year (which she is now off), and EVERYTHING changed. Made me very confident that hormones play a HUGE role.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Married_in_michigan said:


> I did not have a chance to read all posts on this thread, but I can tell you I always considered by wife reactive desire (based on MC and books), and then she went on testosterone for a year (which she is now off), and EVERYTHING changed. Made me very confident that hormones play a HUGE role.


Did the changes stay after she discontinued the testosterone? Completely disappear? Or?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Married_in_michigan said:


> I did not have a chance to read all posts on this thread, but I can tell you I always considered by wife reactive desire (based on MC and books), and then she went on *testosterone* for a year (which she is now off), and EVERYTHING changed. Made me very confident that hormones play a HUGE role.


Yes, if we had the amount of testosterone that males have then no doubt things would be much different for many/most. But that obviously isn’t how it was meant to work so we continue to have thread after thread of a mismatch between spouses (not always men complaining about their wives but those are the majority that I’ve seen). Biology is what it is.

Do some women have high drives? Certainly. But absolutely not all women do and we see what usually happens when they are mismatched with men who do. And compromise doesn‘t always work, unfortunately. The battle of unequal drives has been going on for a very long time and it will likely continue, unfortunately.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

PieceOfSky said:


> Did the changes stay after she discontinued the testosterone? Completely disappear? Or?


Within a few weeks, her drive diminished to similar level to pre-hormone therapy. I could write a lengthy book on the differences between her on and off the T therapy. If was not even as simple as just desire (spontaneous or reactive). It stretched into all aspects of her sexual being. 

The good news (for both her and I), was that she learned about herself sexually during the hormone therapy time, and some of the things she has maintained.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Openminded said:


> Yes, if we had the amount of testosterone that males have then no doubt things would be much different for many/most. But that obviously isn’t how it was meant to work so we continue to have thread after thread of a mismatch between spouses (not always men complaining about their wives but those are the majority that I’ve seen). Biology is what it is.
> 
> Do some women have high drives? Certainly. But absolutely not all women do and we see what usually happens when they are mismatched with men who do. And compromise doesn‘t always work, unfortunately. The battle of unequal drives has been going on for a very long time and it will likely continue, unfortunately.


I agree...for me it was just very interesting and "telling" to what was behind much of the difference.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Yeah, but.

The stories we see here are many times about wives who not only don't have a high drive but ALSO pretty much treat their husbands like ****, and that has nothing to do with testosterone.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Married_in_michigan said:


> I agree...for me it was just very interesting and "telling" to what was behind much of the difference.


It definitely is very interesting. Obviously, we know that isn’t the solution for everyone but my guess is that it would be for many.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Livvie said:


> Yeah, but.
> 
> The stories we see here are many times about wives who not only don't have a high drive but ALSO pretty much treat their husbands like ****, and that has nothing to do with testosterone.


I have to wonder though, how many wives treat their husbands like s**t, because their husbands are a**h***s? For sure not the case always, but there must be a mix of reasons. Not all wives are just terrible, and some are. Some on the husband side. 

Interesting for me, my wife did not treat me poorly, our issues was always just very mismatched sex drives, but although her treatment of me was not really an issue, when she was on testosterone, her mood was nearly always good (on top of the high sex drive). It was good all around for her, other than some physical side effects. Selfishly, I wish she would go back on it


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Openminded said:


> It definitely is very interesting. Obviously, we know that isn’t the solution for everyone but my guess is that it would be for many.


If there are no other issues in the relationship that are interfering with sex, and "desire" and libido are the only factors, testosterone can do wonders, but comes at a price. There are side effects, and some not great. My wife also felt that having to take medicine to "be someone else" was not great for her. She will admit, very freely, that the sex drive and sex quality was GREAT, but she did not love the side effects. 

I would agree.....its not for everyone, but it could help many people. I also take it, and does wonders for me in many ways, not only sex related.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I'm always curious about the other side of things.

It's one reason why I don't particularly buy into 'rewriting history'. 

We all have our own perception of events. No one sees things exactly the same - even if we agree. I'd venture to say we often see things very differently, depending on the circumstances.

If both spouses were here sharing, we'd probably get mismatched versions of a troubled marriage - not because someone is lying or hiding, but just because they're individuals.



Livvie said:


> Yeah, but.
> 
> The stories we see here are many times about wives who not only don't have a high drive but ALSO pretty much treat their husbands like ****, and that has nothing to do with testosterone.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Married_in_michigan said:


> I have to wonder though, how many wives treat their husbands like s**t, because their husbands are a**h***s? For sure not the case always, but there must be a mix of reasons. Not all wives are just terrible, and some are. Some on the husband side.


The best we can do here is listen, ask probing questions, and try to keep in mind the limits of not only “one-sided reporting”, but also distortions as we listen caused by our own presumptions/experiences/biases/filters.

Knowing is hard.

Personally, I’d guess it’s relatively infrequent someone being treated like **** is an asshole, and bothering to post here. More likely to me is two non-assholes treating each other poorly, or one decent person being unilaterally mistreated or abused.

I think when someone has interacted here long enough, it’s possible to get a feel for whats going on....but, of course, we can never be sure.

I think it’s common for someone being mistreated or abused to be the last to comprehend and accept the truth. It’s also common for an abuser to think his or her behavior is justified. So, challenging as it is, the stakes are pretty high.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Openminded said:


> I have to ask PieceOfSky — why, seven years after that thread, are you still with her? Fear of the unknown? Something else?





CharlieParker said:


> Sky comes across to me as very kind and empathetic, and I wish nothing other than best for him.
> 
> I’d ask, respectfully, didn’t you plan on filing? What changed? (I may have asked, or deleted before posting, sorry if I hit send and don’t recall the answer.)


It’s kind of you all to ask. So as to not thread jack, I’ll answer your questions in new thread when I get a chance.


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