# I love you but...



## Who Knew (Feb 21, 2013)

Fist off, Thank you all for taking the time to help. About us, I'm 40 she's 38. Together for 22 years married 12, 2 daughters under 10 years old. 8 months ago I got the I love you but speech from my wife and that she was done and wanted divorce. I was blown away... you know the story. I quickly talked her into MC and she only agreed for reasons of getting along for the girls sake. She had emotionally turned herself off to me and was avoiding me at all costs. We had tons of built up resentment although I didn't know what that meant at the time. 
Long story short I'm amazed at how good I feel after working on removing the resentment, working out, eating right, and doing a lot more around the house to help out. I didn't realize that my self esteem had been so low. I just figured there's something wrong with my wife (depression) and she needed help. 
Here it is 8 months later and we are getting along much better and she recently agreed to individual counceling. On Valentines Day I got my first hug and kiss on the cheek since the speech. I almost cried, but my kids were in the room. 
I have read a few books and tons of articles, then stumbled upon this site and figured I would share my story and possible get some advise. My first question is how do I know when to give her space and when push for quality time (her love language) like going to dinner and movies... What i'm doing seems to be working but very slowly and I feel like i'm moving eternally into the friend category which isn't quite what I'm looking for. I should say we still have sex but not like in love couples do. The rule was no hugging, kissing, snuggling but we can have sex once a month. I don't pressure her about sex anymore and that seems to help out a lot, but still no affection except for valentines day which was awesome. 
I'm sure I left out a lot so if you have questions ask away. Oh and I have never cheated, abused drugs, or been physically abusive. She had never cheated and gets emotional fulfillment from friends at work (I call them man haters, cheaters, or on the brink of divorce themselves). She started working there 2 years ago and most of the detachment started six months later. She originally started going quiet and feeling sad all the time when our second child was born 7 years ago, but wouldn't talk to me about it at all. Anyways, any advise is much appreciated.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Wow, sounds like you guys are working yur way back and that's great!

What was she like before kids? How is that different from now. Same question for you too. I'm perplexed at the distance that still seems to be there and wonder what's causing it. How was your sex life prior to her bombshell?


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## nevergveup (Feb 18, 2013)

Well open communication is very important.When was the last time
you got a babysitter and took her out to dinner or night out?Do you ever give her foot massage or a nice back rub?

Think back before you had children.I imagine you did way more.Talk to her and listen and learn to laugh again.Be patient and make her feel loved and special.There is a good chance her desire will come back.


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## Wiltshireman (Jan 23, 2013)

Who Knew said:


> She had never cheated and gets emotional fulfillment from friends at work (I call them man haters, cheaters, or on the brink of divorce themselves). QUOTE]
> 
> Now there is a problem my wife and I went through as well. For us it was when our 3rd child started pre-school, there were a group of single mums / women in failed relationships who although they provided a support network for each other were always running down men (their men, other women’s men, men in general). My wife started spending time with them, (meet up for a coffee / play date with the kids / school functions). Their negative attitudes to men combined with my wife’s "baby blues" and health problems magnified the "in a rut" period we were going through.
> 
> ...


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## Who Knew (Feb 21, 2013)

Wow thanks for the advise. I already feel better knowing there's help available. Our first cs I was advised to offer back and foot massages and I do often. Most of the time she turns me down but not all the time, and it rarely turns into sex which is fine with me.
For years we didn't do things like leave the kids with grandparents and go out together because we would rather spend the time with the kids, but now realize how important one on one time is and go out about once every couple of weeks. Our schedules are crazy, and we don't like to push our kids off on others due to feeling guilty. 
Yes I know the negative influences are not helping our progress but when I brought it up she states that I always think she is weak and easily influenced. Didn't go well. I hid a VAR in the car when they went out one night when I was worried about the possibility of an affair, and one of the her married friends was talking on the phone with a guy she met that night... I don't like when she goes out with them, but try not to be controlling. I guess she needs to see it for herself. 
Thanks again.


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## Who Knew (Feb 21, 2013)

I guess I should mention that I believe she is going through an MLC. She started working out, dresses like she's going out just to go to work, spends money that we don't have on clothes, rewriting history... the list goes on and on. Nothing like the woman I known for 20 years. I have apologized for my wrong doings mostly having to do with not being emotionally available for her and not understanding how she needs to be validated instead of fixed. How long does the MLC last or is there an answer to that? Will IC help with that?


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Who Knew said:


> Yes I know the negative influences are not helping our progress but when I brought it up she states that I always think she is weak and easily influenced.


My response would be, "No, the problem is not that I think you are weak. It's what I imagine you're saying that makes them think you fit into their little group. What is it they like about you, do you suppose?"


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## Wiltshireman (Jan 23, 2013)

KathyBatesel said:


> My response would be, "No, the problem is not that I think you are weak. It's what I imagine you're saying that makes them think you fit into their little group. What is it they like about you, do you suppose?"


I think that we all consciously or not try and fit in with the people around us, 

My wife has pointed out that when I return from a day out with my ex forces buddies I tend to swear / curse more. When I think about it I can see that she is right and it’s not just if we have had a drink or three.


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## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

I'm thinking that you need to be careful you don't lose yourself in this. I'm wondering if the causes of the unhappiness in the relationship aren't shared. Hopefully the IC works some of this out. Its one thing to make allowances while you endure your spouse's MLC its another to accommodate to the point of being a doormat. (which often doesn't end well anyway...)


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## Who Knew (Feb 21, 2013)

That brings up a good question. When is it accommodating an MLC and when is it becoming a doormat. I don't feel like a doormat at the time, but from the outside looking in maybe be different story. I feel like I'm putting in a lot of work and not getting my needs met but until the fog lifts what other option do I have? Now if there was evidence of an affair I would see it differently. She goes out with friends about once a month and I feel that women deserve time alone with friends, but it was a lot easier to accept when I thought she loved me and saw a future together. Her words were if we stay together not in love that one of us might cheat. After hearing that I don't feel comfortable when she goes out with her man hater friends. Once again though what options do I have. I don't want to be the controlling ahole so I just wait patiently and hope for the best. 
I also have hopes that ic will help work out some other issues; the list could go on and on. Yet this morning when I mentioned actually making an appointment for her she said " I don't know what I would say in counceling." I wish I could go to her ic meeting.


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## gbonham77 (Feb 21, 2013)

you already have the red flags to suspect her


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Your thread describes an affair right down to the terminology. Fog, doormat, rewriting history, ILYBANILWY....

It is possible that your wife has detached and is on her way to a walk-a-way. It's also possible she is in an affair. You obviously suspect, what else can you tell us because my guess is you're in denial.


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## Who Knew (Feb 21, 2013)

PA no. Her last job she worked 8 years and I eventually found out that she told her coworkers (4 females) everything about us, and I mean everything. I told her at the time that I thought some things just shouldn't be shared but eventually was ok with it since I now know these ladies well and they are all great people. 2 years ago she gets a new job and is hating the face that she isn't in the in crowd at this (Professional) job. The boss is younger divorced male with 1 kid. She has to spend a lot of job related time with him and tell me that they only talk business. Yet she's telling a lot of personal stuff to these other coworkers (man haters lol). I don't believe that the boss and her only talk business and have found no hard evidence so far. In November and December I spent some time explaining what an emotional affair is and how damaging it could be to a relationship and how it hurts progress of reconciliation. Since then I notice she's getting home a little earlier on average, making an effort to communicate, we are getting along better, yet she does seem distant and depressed at times. So while the evidence points to an EA she has never admitted it, and I have had gps on her since this all started. I haven't in the past been the type of guy you want to admit these things to by the way. She knows that if I found out there was another man getting in the way of my family happiness I would be at her work in 4 minutes. After a lot of reading about the subject I'm not sure how I would handle it if I found out now. I'm not sure if these are tied together, but recently told her that I didn't feel like she was putting much effort into working on our relationship and she stated that she really was and I just didn't see it. she says that just because she's not reading self help books doesn't mean that she's not working on it.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I don't believe in the MLC. She is or has had at a minimum an EA.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

Who Knew said:


> *Her words were if we stay together not in love that one of us might cheat.* After hearing that I don't feel comfortable when she goes out with her man hater friends. Once again though what options do I have. I don't want to be the controlling ahole so I just wait patiently and hope for the best.


That was basically a heads up that she's either thought about cheating on you, has already cheated on you and just didn't want to come right out and admit it, or there's a good chance she thinks she probably will cheat on you. Women don't say things like that innocuously. 

Personally I think she's cheated on you or still is. Might not be an affair, she might just be getting her jollies off with other men.



> I feel like I'm putting in a lot of work and not getting my needs met but until the fog lifts what other option do I have?


Stop putting in the work for one thing. Your wife takes you for granted because it seems quite clear no matter what she does or how she acts you're going to do whatever you can to try to make her happy and keep her in the marriage while making excuses for her ("Well she's having a MLC, so I'll just address it by being the best husband I can be"). 

Women do not respect men like that because they come off as weak and needy. When she disrespects you, your reaction seems to be to just take it. I don't know if you're a doormat but you come off as co-dependant. It seems quite clear that you need her more than she currently feels she needs you and you're fully displaying that to her which is a turn off and if anything is driving her away.

I suggest keeping tabs on her like you have been, but stop with talk about working on the marriage, stop the marriage counseling, stop coming off as so needy, stop talking about your relationship, and start doing the 180. I know the 180 isn't best for reconcilliation but it MIGHT make your wife start to have some respect for you, which she obviously doesn't have much of. It's time to change your behavior and man up.


If you haven't I suggest reading

The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011: Athol Kay: 9781460981733: Amazon.com: Books

and 

"No More Mr. Nice Guy"
http://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


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## Trying to figure this out (Feb 23, 2013)

Who Knew....I feel like we're in the same boat except I heard ILYB 5 months ago. Did y'all ever separate? We've started that discussion to spend sometime apart. It will be rough, but she seems absolutely stagnant and not able to work on it. 

I have realized what type of depression I have been in for years because our communication had steadily died and am now seeing things clearly for the first time. I've gotten much stronger since reading ILYB by Andrew Marshall. It's quite amazing to see things now for how they unfolded.

Our family is everything to both of us, but she can't seem to put past the years of neglect (both ways she to me and me to her). I just assumed much of this poor relationship was just something anyone married raising kids just had to bear until you reached different stages and assuming only makes....

I really appreciate seeing your positive writing about this subject, understand your fighting the good fight without recognition/reward and still trudging along. Best of luck!!


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## Reawakened (Feb 23, 2013)

You know , Amplexor , Plan 9 and Jasel are likely correct. When one gets the " I love you but ..." speech there is almost always someone else involved. Trust me , as a victim of a walk away wife now mid - divorce there was another man ( and I never suspected it ). As long as there is someone else your chance of marital recovery is almost nil. remember , those who are involved in affairs become masters at covering their tracks. Best wishes and sorry you're going through this ...


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## Who Knew (Feb 21, 2013)

Thanks for the advise and recommendation for reading material. I will put them on the list. One of the reasons that I don't believe that she has had, or is having a physical affair is mostly because she is extremely self conscious mainly about some female problems that she has. She even told me when right after the I love you but speech that we only connect in bed, and that she would like us to keep sleeping together while single. I don't know why she would want that if theres someone else filling those needs. That and constant gps tracking, and some conversations I heard from VAR. 
I do believe its possible that there was an emotional affair that has probably ended now but still working together is in the way of our progress. 
Trying to figure this out, our stories are identical. I even read and feel the same way about the ILYB book. We have not separated because of the kids. If we do it will be during the summer when my wife is off work. With the progress we have made so far I would say we might not separate. But we are also at a point where the progress is either extremely slow or non existent. What to do... What to do. I love my kids so much and will continue to do what I think is best for them, but yes it is hard. More later, and Thanks so much for sharing.


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## Who Knew (Feb 21, 2013)

Figured its time for an update. Since my last post thinks have gotten progressively better. 

We are both in ic and it seems to be helping. We are starting to connect in ways like we used to. 
We are both working out which seems to help also. Things are peaceful and happy around the house. 

My wife still doesn't read books or work on us like I think she should but I'm ok with that
As long as there's progress. Still no I love yous or kissing and sex once a month. I don't pressure her and stay patient. 

The mAle coworker was transferred to another site about six months ago and since then I noticed more steady 
Improvements in our relationship. Also she doesn't seem to need to disconnect by watching tv or staring at clothes 
On her phone like she used to. At least not as much. 

One question I have is should I start pressuring for more affection or just be patient? 
No pressure has done wonders this far but 2 years without saying I love you in front of 
The kids. No kissing? WhAt do you guys think? So pressure for sex... Keep in mind that
Sex is usually painful for her so I'm being extra patient. Any advise ?

Hope you are all doing well and thank you for the help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Who Knew said:


> Figured its time for an update. Since my last post thinks have gotten progressively better.
> 
> We are both in ic and it seems to be helping. We are starting to connect in ways like we used to.
> We are both working out which seems to help also. Things are peaceful and happy around the house.
> ...


Do you think she had something going on with this OM?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Who Knew (Feb 21, 2013)

No. Maybe work wife relationship type of deal but nothing physical.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Do you have access to her phone, email, fb, etc? Did you read the books Jasel suggested?


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Who Knew said:


> One question I have is should I start pressuring for more affection or just be patient?
> No pressure has done wonders this far but 2 years without saying I love you in front of
> The kids. No kissing? WhAt do you guys think? So pressure for sex... Keep in mind that
> Sex is usually painful for her so I'm being extra patient. Any advise ?



First of all, thanks for the update! Updates are awesome.

I'm glad you are feeling better, but frankly I don't see what has actually improved. This is what you said in your original post 10 months ago:



Who Knew said:


> I should say we still have sex but not like in love couples do. The rule was no hugging, kissing, snuggling but we can have sex once a month.


The core problem is still the same. Why on earth would anyone make a "rule" like this? And how long are you going to put up with it? If you aren't allowed to show affection to someone, and have to schedule sex with them, *that is much more like a prostitute than a spouse*. Why stay married to someone who clearly doesn't love you?

If you are happy with that, then stay with it. But I would have packed my bags a long time ago. It looks like you have tried everything conceivable to fix this problem, except separation. Maybe once you move out and she's facing the reality of losing you, she'll finally decide she doesn't want to become one of her unhappy "man hating" divorced friends.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Theseus said:


> First of all, thanks for the update! Updates are awesome.
> 
> I'm glad you are feeling better, but frankly I don't see what has actually improved. This is what you said in your original post 10 months ago:
> 
> ...


I am glad you seem to be in a better place but when I read your thread I also don't really see any improvement with your situation. It seems as though you have adjusted to it, or that you're just accepting it now. You shouldn't have to beg for hug or a kiss. 

I understand that emotions in relationships go up and down, but if its been months and things haven't changed I think you need to consider the possibility that they may never change. You can't force someone to love you. Everybody is different though, if this is acceptable to you than stay, but in my opinion you deserve someone who gives you their love willingly without you having to jump through hoops only to not receive anything.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

She's gone. 

Is she still cruising meat markets once a month? You know, the ones where they meet men and call them on the way home? I wonder if there's a "no kissing rule" on THOSE nights. 

I was going to waste my time quoting all of the quotes that pointed to a classic walk-away-wife. But I'm not going to bother. The other folks have pointed out there is ZERO improvement. I find it amazing you see any.

She's sticking around for the kids. 

With her since she was 18, huh?

Read up on the 180. And don't touch her. Although I'm a huge recipient of duty sex, my wife at least still pretends she likes me during it.

You see improvement. I see a wife who will never love you again. But then again, you know her. I don't. All I have is 4 years on these forums trying to deal with my own WAW. I've read a lot of threads on the subject. Yours is as bad as they get.

180. 

Live it. Learn it. Love it.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Who Knew said:


> One question I have is should I start pressuring for more affection or just be patient?
> No pressure has done wonders this far but 2 years without saying I love you in front of
> The kids. No kissing? WhAt do you guys think? So pressure for sex... Keep in mind that
> Sex is usually painful for her so I'm being extra patient. Any advise ?
> ...


I don't think you should "pressure" her for more affection, but I think you should TALK to her about the lack thereof. If she told you that she loves you but, have you asked her if her feelings for you have changed or stayed the same? 

Also, if sex is truly painful for her, has she been to a doctor? And if so, what does the doctor say? Have YOU spoken to the doctor yourself? 

Your wife can't possibly expect you to go without sex for a lifetime, nor can YOU expect your wife to 'put out' knowing it's painful for her to do so. The two of you NEED to communicate about this with the idea that you're BOTH trying to come up with a solution that's mutually beneficial to BOTH of you. (And yes, _separating_ just might be what's mutually beneficial to both of you!)

As for the lack of affection, I'm going to throw out the possibility that she may feel that *if* she is affectionate with you, the affection might lead to sex...which is obviously painful for her. So she may be avoiding affection. 

Just a few ideas...

Vega


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I think you're dragging things out to the very bitter end, to be honest. 

Guess why she associates primarily with man-hater friends? Guess why things have improved since her "work husband" got relocated? Guess why she still hasn't returned to the vibrant sexual partner you're missing? 

While it's great that you're in counseling (insert a skeptical look from me here), I think it's a bandaid on a cancer. I think you would benefit far more from paying attention to the 180, as MrK said, and focusing on self-improvement.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

Who Knew said:


> No kissing? WhAt do you guys think?


Here's what I think:



Who Knew said:


> Keep in mind that
> Sex is usually painful for her so I'm being extra patient.


I think kissing hurts for her also.

Or neither one hurts and it's something else.

No kissing. That should tell you everything you need to know. Did she give you a reason for this rule?

And in case you didnt get the sarcasm, sex does NOT hurt for her. Not physically anyhow


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Why would you pressure her for sex and affection? If she wanted to give it she would, so all you're going to get is someone that sucks it up and counts the seconds until you're done. .Hopefully you're not ok with that, my ex was so I know some people don't really care if they're wanted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Who Knew (Feb 21, 2013)

I'll try to answer some questions. I have acess to phone, email, and FB. She stated early on that when I tell her I love her it makes her feel bad and didn't want to say it. Kissing is too personal and she's not in love with me like that, but we can have sex still??? It's probably once every 2 weeks actually and yes the rules apply. 

According to my ic the 180 would be counter productive due to the fact that I pretty much did that when she emotionally disconnected from me the year or so before she told me about her feelings. I am considering it though. 
The reason I don't pack my bags or separate is because I have 2 little girls that have a great life and would be devastated. I can't live with myself if I don't try everything. Without kids I would file for d and I'm pretty sure that might change things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

What about the books? No More Mr Nice Guy, Married Man's Sex Life? Have you read them? Have you read other books? If so, what?


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## Who Knew (Feb 21, 2013)

She has indometreosis which does make it painful most if the time. So I guess years of having sex with endo makes one relate negative feelings with sex. She tells me being affectionate makes her want to have sex which will probably be painful and reminds her of her problems so she thinks she would be better off if she was not married. 

So now what? She hates going to the dr. For anything and says that surgery probably won't help anyways. She knows that afterwards she would have to take hormones which really bothers her too. 

Luckily one of her toxic friends just had the same surgery done and I'm hoping she has great results. 

Doesn't it seem that doing the 180 makes me an insensitive a hole that is putting my needs before her pain?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Why is sex painful? What has she done about it? nevermind, you were getting to that, lol.


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## Who Knew (Feb 21, 2013)

I am working out, eating healthy, spending quality time with my kids and I so have poker night with friends every few weeks. I believe I'm reasonably happy considering what we're going through. 

She still goes out with friends once every month or so and I quit with the var after hearing pretty much nothing on her part about other men. Just her husband hater friends. One in particular...the one who just got surgery. 

Cheating is a deal breaker for me and I don't think that's the case so I guess I'm stuck being patient. Your comments are extremely helpful though and same with the reading material that has been recommended.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Who Knew (Feb 21, 2013)

I have read the books. I am not the typical guy that reads nmmng and says oh yeah that's me. I have boundaries, buddies that I've always hung out with. I just this year started doing more around the house. I put myself first plenty. Open to comments though. The other book I just ordered. I've read more books and articles in the last 18 months than I have my whole life. Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## river rat (Jan 20, 2012)

WK, I will not judge you because I have walked through my own hell, which I would not do again. But, my question for you is, what are you getting out of this relationship? Do you really want to live this way? True, endometriosis does cause pain with sex, but it does not preclude affection, which is what your wife is withholding from you. Staying together may teach your daughters how to survive a dysfunctional relationship, but it does not teach them that they deserve better than that. What are your goals here?


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## Who Knew (Feb 21, 2013)

Maybe false hope but my goal is to show my kids that we don't give up even during the toughest of times. I still believe that things are gifting better and that my actions and behaviors contributed to this mess as well as hers. Like I said I do have deal breakers and each month I evaluate the relationship to make sure I still see progress. If all I wanted is sex I could go get it on the side. Maybe I'll look back some day and say what a waste of time but I still feel like I shouldn't give up on my family. Opinions welcome.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Who Knew said:


> Maybe false hope but my goal is to show my kids that we don't give up even during the toughest of times. I still believe that things are gifting better and that my actions and behaviors contributed to this mess as well as hers. Like I said I do have deal breakers and each month I evaluate the relationship to make sure I still see progress. If all I wanted is sex I could go get it on the side. Maybe I'll look back some day and say what a waste of time but I still feel like I shouldn't give up on my family. Opinions welcome.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know two men who were in your situation. One stuck it out for three years. In both cases they said that even though the process of divorce was painful, it was nowhere near as bad as the pain of being in a shell of a marriage.

Both of these men I knew had to file. Their wives would have been content to leave things as they were. In your situation I genuinely feel that your wife isn't at all unhappy with the lack of intimacy and affection in your relationship. If anything she is probably very pleased that she has reduced it to just once a month, and is probably trying to figure out ways/excuses to reduce it even more. 

I don't think she is coming back, and I don't think you are showing your kids a good example by staying. What you have is no longer a marriage. I'm sorry brother.


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## river rat (Jan 20, 2012)

I really do appreciate and understand your not being willing to give up during the tough times. I lived most of my live in the mindset that failure is not an option, until one day I realized that it is, and that it does not diminish you as a human being. I understand the impact of your wife's condition on her sex drive. The thing that I can't get my head around is living with someone who does not really love you, who shows you no affection, and who hangs out with friends that foster those attitudes. Take a hard look at what you are really doing to yourself and your family. You may not be saving them at all.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Who Knew said:


> I have read the books. I am not the typical guy that reads nmmng and says oh yeah that's me. I have boundaries, buddies that I've always hung out with. I just this year started doing more around the house. *I put myself first plenty. *


LOL! Gotta love that honesty!

Someone needs to write a companion volume "No More Mr. Selfish A$$"

I suggest you take her to Marriage Help Program For Couples


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

Who Knew said:


> Maybe false hope but my goal is to show my kids that we don't give up even during the toughest of times. I still believe that things are gifting better and that my actions and behaviors contributed to this mess as well as hers. Like I said I do have deal breakers and each month I evaluate the relationship to make sure I still see progress. If all I wanted is sex I could go get it on the side. Maybe I'll look back some day and say what a waste of time but I still feel like I shouldn't give up on my family. Opinions welcome.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OP

you seem thoughtful on your situation so I don't want to be overly critical of you. But here are my impressions -

-- no you do not have good boundaries with her. If you did you would not tolerate her going out with friends that are cheating. You would not simply accept that her work EA is over, you'd ask her why she got involved with another man, regardless.

-- why not engage in sexual activity other than intercourse? You and her, and are you sure she did none of this with anyone else?

-- Does not her behaviors and attitude make you angry? Why on earth not? How do you express that anger to her? The 180 is ok, but I really think you need to get tougher with her and not worry how she takes it. Let the chips fall where they may.

-- I won't minimize the heartache regarding your kids, but at the moment they are being shown a lifeless marriage (at least from your wife). I think that is as damaging to them as a separation, don't you?


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

Please prepare yourself for the fact that you will NOT win her back. She told you she doesn't love you. You know she doesn't like sex with you. Won't kiss you because it's "too personal" (ie; it grosses her out). 

She's a walk-away. She's as bad as it gets. VERY FEW come back, and I don't see her being the exception.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

nuclearnightmare said:


> OP
> 
> you seem thoughtful on your situation so I don't want to be overly critical of you. But here are my impressions -
> 
> ...


If she want even hug him there is no way she would get creative with alternatives to intercourse. I feel bad for the OP, I don't think there is anything we on TAM can tell him. He has the power to change his situation, he'll do it when he's ready.


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