# Was this my subconscious telling me something?



## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

Funny how we think of things later as the marriage becomes a fuzzier and fuzzier memory.

I remember, every so often, even when our marriage seemed solid and before the detachment of her emotionally, walking up to my wife randomly and asking her, "are you happy being married?" or "are you happy?"..."do you like being married?"...she'd be folding the laundry or just watching t.v. Every so often I'd just ask this outright...then, about 6 months before she left, still not feeling anything was wrong, I asked, "are you going to leave me when the kids get older and move out?". She always answered with "as if" or " yes, I like being married to you",and it stopped there...the subject would change or she'd cast her attention to what she was doing and say something frivolous...but never looking me in the eye when she answered me or spoke in response.

I wonder if this was a subconscious thing for me...did I need reassurance, even though everything seemed ok? Even when she said I love you, she'd be looking away almost every time. Is this odd that I'd ask this out of the blue?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You seem to need a lot of reassurance, and always have. She was just not able to meet your needs. She probably felt guilty, and felt an obligation to try to do the "right thing," but her needs were greater than her good will.

Deg, try to forgive her. I am sure she was not trying to hurt you on purpose.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Even when she said "yes" you didn't get the reassurance you needed so why continue asking? The signs were there. 

If you aren't in counseling already, you should strongly consider it.


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

*If you aren't in counseling already, you should strongly consider it.*

I have seen 5 in the last year. I no longer have the financial means to keep doing so. I have to bear down and just move forward on my own.

Her last text about three weeks ago was her offer to have coffee soon. The good thing about that was that I didn't respond, and that I know that it is an empty invite...which keeps me stronger...

I can do this...as lonely as I feel, I can do this!


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## Betterman (Dec 10, 2011)

deg20 said:


> *If you aren't in counseling already, you should strongly consider it.*
> 
> I have seen 5 in the last year. I no longer have the financial means to keep doing so. I have to bear down and just move forward on my own.
> 
> ...


Deg, some people take longer to heal than others. Building your confidence up would be a good idea. Perhaps doing some volunteering and helping others. Meanwhile, try to stay strong.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Deg you will be alright. Don't get hung up on some of the criticism you receive here. Men's insecurity is the fallback answer for many of the female posters here on TAM. It's all they can come up with to excuse alot of the bad behavior we see from the readers' wives that are described in these threads. 

Your not answering her request to meet for coffee is huge. That is a big step forward. Just keep heading in your own direction and stop wondering what she is up to. All that leads to is a quagmire of heartache. 

She's fvked up.

She's fvcked up.

She's fvcked up.

She's fvcked up.

She's fvcked up.

She's fvcked up.

She's fvcked up.

She's fvcked up.

She's fvcked up.

Want me to keep going?

She's fvcked up.

She's fvcked up.

She's fvcked up.

She's fvcked up.

More?


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

No Bandit...I know this...I truly do...

Thanks for the kick in the ass...

Yes...she's fvucked up...

I now ignore those that say she was just having fun
I now ignore those who say she was experimenting
I now ignore those who say it was just a phase

I now listen to those who say it would have happened anyway
I now listen to those who say she is sick
I now listen to those who say she has no empathy
I now listen to those who say this went on in my marriage


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

deg20 said:


> No Bandit...I know this...I truly do...


You know this, you just have to start believing it.


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

honcho said:


> You know this, you just have to start believing it.


Absolutely Honcho...I am believing it. I'm also believing the fvucked upness was there when I was with her too...which makes this breakup easier to deal with...

it's funny when they say the memories get fuzzier...they truly do...I can only slightly recall her voice now...and many things I used to remember when we split are like a greyish white instead of the vivid Technicolor they once were.


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## poida (Jan 17, 2014)

Speaking as someone who was dependent on my wife for emotional security (and didn't realise it), I can assure you that it puts a great burden on some people, particularly those who are unable to express themselves and have issues that they have buried deep down themselves. It sounds like this might be the case with your wife.

Counselling will be the most valuable investment to your future right now.

I would suggest there is nothing more important right now for you than understanding WHY this is the case.

When I started, I couldn't possibly have imagined the baggage I was carrying from my childhood that still affected me. Nothing bad, but it just illustrated that I hadn't really grown up.

I now feel like and independent adult and I STRONGLY recommend you look your finances again and consider counselling.

Good luck.


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

*I can assure you that it puts a great burden on some people, particularly those who are unable to express themselves and have issues that they have buried deep down themselves. It sounds like this might be the case with your wife.
*

I believe this is EXACTLY my wife. Trouble communicating. Trouble expressing her issues especially in heartfelt of conflict related issues. Trouble being intimate without laughing or making jokes. Every serious or intimate talk...good or bad...whether I was trying to express my love or discuss something that bothered me was either shut down fast ( bothered me ) or made into a joke or lighthearted ( intimacy ). 

*Counselling will be the most valuable investment to your future right now.
*

Four therapists ( females)...one sexologist (male)...but I was seeking answers about her...the whys...her behaviour...her sex rants...her lies and cruelty and how I didn't deserve it...and all of the counselors come back to one common denominator...focus on you/move forward/do things you like/...I know all this...maybe I need a specific counselor. The sexologist was the best because he analyzed what I told him and gave me an OPINION of her and a few possibilities that happened in her/to her...then told me to move on and focus on what I like.

I am...its just slower than usual. Not a lot of support either. Friends all married with kids. No family. No work relations...pretty sparse where I am working regarding people. So Im doing the best I can...Im not ruling out more counselling...but Im seeing if Im strong enough at this point to get over the hump.


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## poida (Jan 17, 2014)

Don't underestimate the bond, strength and understanding that can come with a MALE counsellor. Right now you need to re-learn to be man, not seek the opinion of a woman.

I'm going to bet that you see female counsellors in the hope that they can provide some female perspective and give you some sort of understanding of why your wife did what she did. If so, you need to stop that. Stop trying to understand your wife. It is holding you back.

These reasons are why you are not making progress.

Your understanding of what happened in your marriage and what caused it to break down will ONLY come with your own PERSONAL GROWTH AND UNDERSTANDING OF YOURSELF.

Once you understand yourself and grow as a man, you will know a lot more about women, your wife, your marriage, your divorce and how to accept everything that has happened and how to enjoy your new life.

Get on with it. Go on.... get!


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

*Your understanding of what happened in your marriage and what caused it to break down will ONLY come with your own PERSONAL GROWTH AND UNDERSTANDING OF YOURSELF.
*

This is where I get confused. I have parties telling me in no way was I at fault for my wife doing what she did and deciding not to attempt to reconcile AT ALL. If she checked out, then I do not know what effect I had on this, and she wont give me truthful answers. So far its been that I was miserable and I caused too much stress...Yes I was miserable because she failed to give me the attention and respect I believe I deserved. So it's hard to move forward when I can't recognize what part I played in this. Im not saying I didn't have shortcomings, but I don't think these were worth disintegrating a marriage after 9 years. I understand myself somewhat...maybe I just have to chalk it up to we weren't compatible and I couldn't meet her needs.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

deg20 said:


> *Your understanding of what happened in your marriage and what caused it to break down will ONLY come with your own PERSONAL GROWTH AND UNDERSTANDING OF YOURSELF.
> *
> 
> This is where I get confused. I have parties telling me in no way was I at fault for my wife doing what she did and deciding not to attempt to reconcile AT ALL. If she checked out, then I do not know what effect I had on this, and she wont give me truthful answers. So far its been that I was miserable and I caused too much stress...Yes I was miserable because she failed to give me the attention and respect I believe I deserved. So it's hard to move forward when I can't recognize what part I played in this. Im not saying I didn't have shortcomings, but I don't think these were worth disintegrating a marriage after 9 years. I understand myself somewhat...maybe I just have to chalk it up to we weren't compatible and I couldn't meet her needs.



All you can do is work on the shortcomings that you feel you have and build from there. Your expecting answers from a person who cant even be truthful with herself.

You feel the marriage could have been saved. She didn't want to save it. You had no chance because she didn't want it. The farther away and more detached you get from her the more you will start to see the weaknesses in the marriage and the two of you.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

deg,

You can not change anyone, but yourself. You could not have done anything to meet her needs. Her needs cannot be met on a long-term basis by one man. She can't help that. She is damaged and has damaged you by trying to be someone she is not. Read bandit's post over and over.


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> deg,
> 
> You can not change anyone, but yourself. You could not have done anything to meet her needs. Her needs cannot be met on a long-term basis by one man. She can't help that. She is damaged and has damaged you by trying to be someone she is not. Read bandit's post over and over.


I accept that then, But I'll tell you this...I am an intelligent man, so it must have been a combination of brilliant manipulation on her part, with gaslighting and lies and masterful deception added to the fact that I was ingeniously duped for that long, shrouded in trust and that she was an honest, good hearted, loving individual...I'm just as mad at myself for falling for this for this long. For buying into her build-me-up compliments. I am still in shock, but understanding, that someone would play this game for so long. Man, I must be so gullible...you could probably sell me a few bridges and lease me the St. Louis Arc...I was disposable. I was temporary. And, I realize that...so many signs in hindsight...so many...and Yes...I will learn from this, but geez...it's hard not to feel like a fool.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Maybe you were gullible -- most of us are before we get our hearts shattered. But we grow the most when lessons are hard. I am a much stronger person now than I was before wading through all the debris of my former marriage. You will be too.

ETA: When I was going through my journey I reminded myself daily that he could never hurt me again. That helped me get through it.


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

Well...I think I've become so skeptical that I have a thousand foot wall up now. My willingness to trust and open my heart and believe in people's good nature has vanished...I just see the ruthlessness and the games people play to get what they want and need, not caring how it effects their prey. Not just towards my ex or women, but it's a different world than I grew up in now. I am constantly being played because of my good nature and ease of faith...

I truly enjoy helping others. That's why I'm a teacher. So for 9 years I was played and once in a while she'd pretend to love me and say nice things. She rarely did things I wanted to do. She'd watch me play ball to flirt with my friends...she dropped me off every morning on her way to work, and after the break up she blurts out that I should have given her gas money...it's my wife...we were supposed to be a team...I paid for every single meal and movie and coffee for 9 years...every one. I can honestly say she never ONCE had to pay for any form of entertainment we had...

Makes me sick sometimes to know I was such an idiot. Never again!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

deg20 said:


> maybe I just have to chalk it up to we weren't compatible and I couldn't meet her needs.


:iagree:


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I think we all feel played when we look back as we are divorcing. I did. Now I look at my experience as a lesson learned. A very valuable lesson. I do wish it hadn't taken 45 years of marriage to learn that lesson but that's the reality of it. 

After my divorce I reached a point where I no longer looked back -- just ahead. You'll get there too (sometimes it takes awhile).


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

Yes...I need to drop the inkling to chat with her, just to ask about family, friends, work.
I need to separate this in my head. I've NEVER dismissed anyone from my life before, but I am doing it now...and it's tough. I need to remind myself that she CANNOT be a friend...and acquaintance even, and that it's not worth it knowing her anymore...even for an hour coffee. I have gone no contact for about a month now...and the only contact a month ago were texts that she initiated, not me...she asked, "Coffee soon...ok?" ...I didn't reply.

Oh, and I feel guilty about this ( should I? ), but I'm getting pleasure in the fact that her house hasn't sold and it's been a year now...she is struggling financially and it's becoming dire, unless her new guy is bailing her out...


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

deg20 said:


> Yes...I need to drop the inkling to chat with her, just to ask about family, friends, work.
> 
> *Yes...you do need to stop this. My question to you is why you feel the need to speak to a woman who basically has no morals and shares no ethical baseline with you? She never did. The divorce is through, there is no reason to speak to her anymore. Do you want to be her little satellite, circling around her the rest of your life, hoping she'll throw you a scrap from her table? Is that how you want to live the rest of your life? Tell her to take her friendship and shove it up her ass.*
> 
> ...


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

Bandit...I seriously love your "telling it like it is"...it hits home...it truly does...you're like the hammer I need once in a while to smarten up...I wish my counsellors were as frank and blunt as you are...I often copy/paste your responses and print them in Word...

Thanks...I'm getting there!


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

deg20 said:


> Bandit...I seriously love your "telling it like it is"...it hits home...it truly does...you're like the hammer I need once in a while to smarten up...I wish my counsellors were as frank and blunt as you are...I often copy/paste your responses and print them in Word...
> 
> Thanks...I'm getting there!


I want to see you free and moving on. Not necessarily to a new woman, but just moving to a new life where you are actively working towards being the best Deg20 you can be. Complete geographic and communication separation is a must. 

Stop thinking you need a steady woman in your life to be happy. You have been wounded by your ex's callousness, so you need to separate her from your life...completely, to the point where in your mind she basically died long ago. Spend some time alone...a couple years maybe, getting back to some equilibrium with yourself.

Take any leftover pictures, e-mails, gifts, cards, mementos and anything else from your marriage, box them up, drive out to the countryside...and have a little funeral. Bury the box deep. Seriously. Dress up and do a eulogy to the woman she once was, long ago when you married her and she was for a short time at least acting like she was in love with you. Bury THAT version of her, say goodbye to her, tell her you cherish THAT memory but you must move on with your life. 

The woman she is now is a stranger...a ghost. You don't know her and never did. Ignore her as you would a bum on the sidewalk. 

And stay off her fvcking Facebook page!!!!


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> I want to see you free and moving on. Not necessarily to a new woman, but just moving to a new life where you are actively working towards being the best Deg20 you can be. Complete geographic and communication separation is a must.
> 
> Stop thinking you need a steady woman in your life to be happy. You have been wounded by your ex's callousness, so you need to separate her from your life...completely, to the point where in your mind she basically died long ago. Spend some time alone...a couple years maybe, getting back to some equilibrium with yourself.
> 
> ...


Thankfully she is not on facebook, or linked in, or any of that!

I have no mementos at all...no pictures, no letters ( she never wrote me ONE letter ever ), no cards...so I'm good there...

and living by myself...well...I'm adjusting...and no, I won't seek a woman for a while...I don't have the wherewithal right now anyway...the loneliness is waning...her memory is fading...I'm nearly there...I've gathered together a collection of posts from this and other sites with responses much like yours. I read them every night. It truly helps...

And I just read this:

*The Ex you KNEW is not the Ex you KNOW.

by test-monkey


This is one of the more valuable insights you'll develop about your ex. Maybe.

Try thinking back. Way back. Remember how your ex treated you when things were good? The responses, the calls, the laughs, the full-on engagement. Yes, there may have been problems and issues in the relationship, but clearly you were an undeniable part of the twosome.

Fast forward to today. Is the attention there? The respect? The acknowledgement??

Our feelings for our exes go back to the person we knew, loved, dated, lived with, or were married to. The person they were then, despite challenges, was authentically the person we developed strong feelings for. TODAY HOWEVER, we are not talking about the same person. This is a critical point to take into consideration.

It's as if the person we knew passed away with a new soul taking their place. And here we are now, pining for an entirely different person. Take a step back. This new person, the one for whom you are longing and hurting, is someone you don't actually know. They have the same physical appearance. But the soul and person inside is no longer the same. The person you once knew is gone. Once again, THIS person you talk about today is actually NOT your Ex. YOUR Ex didn't just leave you, but left this world. And since you can't bottle that time or keep your ex in the present, the grief you should be feeling is one that commemorates your ex's passing.

Understand, the ex today is a stranger. He or she is some warped new manifestation with whom you actually do not have a past.

And don't worry so much about what they're doing. The ex you knew and loved isn't dating anyone new. They're not even here. The one going on dates is a different soul entirely, who just happens to inhabit the body of your ex. Need proof? Just think about it. If he or she was the same person, your relationship would still be current. You would be together and growing. Need anyone say more?!





*


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Yep.

I like the Bodysnatchers analogy. 

Aliens came and swiped your ex-wife and replaced her with a pod-person...

Shes at some planet far far away washing dishes at an alien deli.


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

*Why? Why would a woman who is supposedly in a new relationship with a new man be wanting to hang out with her ex-husband.*

Let me answer this. There was no real intent to have coffee here. This was just a "feeler" text to see how I'd react. She feels less guilty and more "at ease" if I respond with something like, "sure...ok...no problem"...to see if I'm still game or if I'm bitter. If I say yes, then she just goes on her merry way thinking I'm not mad or bitter or pi**ed, with no intent whatsoever to meet....well, too fvucking bad!

I remember getting a text with her a few months after separation: "Everything is at peace in my life when we are good"...that's how she rolls...what a shallow, selfish, self-centred individual...


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## Betterman (Dec 10, 2011)

Deg, I think you and I are going through alot of the same stuff. I will share with one of the things I have held close to help me through the absolute worst of moments. Everyone in life is doing the best that they know how from their own state of consciousness. Their words and actions are in NO way a reflection of who you are as a person, but only of who they are as a person. 

Trust me, I'm still struggling mightily. I still have the knots in the stomach and the ache in the heart, but I know it will pass. It was not right from the get go and yours wasn't either. Sure we had good times, but at some point we have to take responsibility for the choices we make.

I'm working my tail off to get through this and to address my co-dependency issues (thank you, Bandit). She is out partying and drinking. When she showed up yesterday to move out, she was stoned. It was an exclamation point for me.

I do want to say that Bandit is very lucid and wise and his words in my threads have been powerful help for me. Thank you, Bandit for being a voice of both clarity and compassion.

Deg, I sent you a PM. If you even want to talk just call.


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## poida (Jan 17, 2014)

Every situation is different, but what I have learnt from my experiences is that we are all more primal creatures than we understand and that we are not always in total control of how these forces sway us. I'm not just talking about sex, I talking about a lot of aspects in life.

From my experience, I have learned that some women are so deeply driven by their desire for security (whether that be social, emotional, financial, sexual or physical) and also procreation that their view on their partner and their surroundings can be so dramatically swayed that they choose to allow themselves to make radical changes to their lives. That can include seemingly irrational events like leaving their partner, having an affair, stealing from their partner, abandoning children etc etc. Things that to an emotionally stable and happy person just seem cruel, crazy and irrational.

Men also have foibles.

Every human has primal emotions and needs. Each of us deal with them in different ways. Some value and rely on our values over all else, some simply have low levels of drive and some simply live in a primal way. If they are attracted to another person, they pursue them, if they want children and can't with their current partner, they leave them, if they want a higher social standing, they force their way there without consideration.

Our society sets a lot of boundaries. 

I have accepted that some people are neither capable nor willing to live within these boundaries.

I accept that my Ex-wife was a driven woman with strong desire for children (we were struggling), a high social standing, and a higher sense of emotional involvement (she wants a daddy). I was unable to provide those things to her in the time frame she needed and so she left me for another man (who will also likely fail to provide most of these requirements). 

I know that my ex-wife feels remorse and sadness to some level but I know that in her heart she would have done the same thing again. I can see it for what it is now and I know that that is not the sort of person I want to spend the rest of my life with. I am glad it happened.

deg20. You need to understand that just because someone shows remorse and sadness and tries to re-connect with you as a result of these, does NOT mean that they would not have done exactly what they did, and would have done so every time if they re-lived the situation.

Work on yourself and when you are happy and comfortable with yourself again, find a partner who is compatible to you in a primal sense.


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

I sent you a pm back, betterman...don't know if it went or not though...


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> One thing is very telling...she asked you out for coffee. Why? Why would a woman who is supposedly in a new relationship with a new man be wanting to hang out with her ex-husband. Already she is exhibiting signs of cheating behavior. She isn't even married to the dude and she cannot be faithful...


Brilliant catch bandit, it is cheating behavior indeed.


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## poida (Jan 17, 2014)

Decorum said:


> Brilliant catch bandit, it is cheating behavior indeed.


Yes, cheating behaviour, but also keeping him in a Plan B position in case her new relationship all goes pear shaped. She knows she can manipulate him to take her back if needed.

That is her only use for him. A pawn to meet HER needs.


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

*Yes, cheating behaviour, but also keeping him in a Plan B position in case her new relationship all goes pear shaped. She knows she can manipulate him to take her back if needed.

That is her only use for him. A pawn to meet HER needs. *

Yes, I can see how you guys would think that...again, there is no real intent to meet with me in that coffee invite...and she has told so many friends and family members about me being miserable and a mistake, and badmouthed me that plan b isn't even a thought at all. She hasn't even hit me up for a loan...shes done with me...and vice versa. But I can guarantee that even though shes with her new man, she texts and possibly sexts other guys to satisfy that need. She stated in one of her last texts that she doesn't want to live with anyone...if this is true its because she wants her freedom from being monitored and do as she pleases. I was on to her texting before she left. I made continuous complaints to put the phone down and pay attention to me while I talk...she probably doesn't want this again...plus she doesn't have to account for her whereabouts if her man isn't living with her.

Just after sep, while I still lived there, she assigned her regular number to a burner phone just for me...I found this out weeks after she did it. She changed her number on her iPhone for "everyone else". When I asked why, she thought I had applied an app to her iPhone without physically touching it...shes not phone savvy...and thought I could read her texts this way...hiding much, *****?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Betterman said:


> I do want to say that Bandit is very lucid and wise and his words in my threads have been powerful help for me. Thank you, Bandit for being a voice of both clarity and compassion.


You're more than welcome. PM me your address so I can send my bill.


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## Betterman (Dec 10, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> You're more than welcome. PM me your address so I can send my bill.


LOL! It's nice to have a laugh right now.


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