# Opinions please.



## CuriousC (May 7, 2020)

Hi,
Just looking for some thoughts.?
43 year old male, 3 kids, and my wife and myself have good jobs so no financial headaches thankfully.
We do have some problems though. We generally get on well and in terms of the kids we’re on the same page. Our relationship though in terms of the other parts feels most of the time mundane. Over the last few years , sex has been sporadic. Partly down to my wife having quite a bit of trouble down there. I’ve had my troubles too, enlarged prostate and some sex issues related to that.
At present over the past year we’ve had sex about 10 times. It is taking its toll. We’ve always had trouble in terms of her drive been extremely low and mine very high. She seems to have given up on looking after her body over the past couple of years. Little to no exercise, eating badly, drinking. Whilst I’m the opposite in many ways- I definitely have a sweet tooth but it’s in moderation. In top of this I find she’s quite cranky at times with me and the kids. In terms of exercise with kids, she is v slow to initiate and I do most of it. I ask her rarely anymore as she’ll always have an excuse. Sex has always been a big problem- she’s never willing to give it time, try anything different in terms of anything sexual.
Anyway I’ll get to the point.
Should I confront her? I feel that if she exercised more and tried to lose a little weight that a lot of her problems would go away. I am attracted to her but sometimes I feel she won’t do anything for me. She’ll head off to Dubai with her friends but certainly won’t try work on our sex life and marriage.


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## FlaviusMaximus (Jan 10, 2012)

I’d concern myself with what has led up to the lack of sex as it’s probably a symptom of other issues. What has led to her drinking and eating habits? If she’s listless with you and the kids, what is the underlying cause of that. I’d approach her with some concern and from a position of wanting to help. Your sex life with her won’t be made better by discussing it as a sex issue and it certainly won’t be made better by confronting her about her weight (more than likely, that’s a side effect of other issues). Her heading off to another country with friends, why isn’t she traveling with you? (there will be some understanding in that answer for sure)

Good luck.


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## CuriousC (May 7, 2020)

Thanks for your message.
Hard to answer your questions to be honest.
She’s never been the sporty type. I think the extended lockdown hasn’t helped her to be honest. I know she’s not happy about not fitting into her clothes but she doesn’t seem to want to put any concerted effort into it.
Lack of sex is partly related to urinary issues she’s having. She’s pretty much just stopped sex as she thinks it will give her problems. She recently had tests done and they told her it was healthy yet she still gets issues. I can appreciate why she won’t feel up for it due to this.
Our biggest problem now is just her lack of enthusiasm. She’d rather sit watching tv , playing with her phone than do stuff. She does go for walks once or twice a week but that’s it. She’ll hardly ever try play with the kids.
Going away with friends I’m kinda ok with. I know she’s out drinking and partying but I do trust her. You’re right though I do wish I was in her plans about weekends away but I’m not. I think it’s because I don’t want to go out drinking and partying all the time - don’t get me wrong I do like a night out but every night out doesn’t appeal to me as a holiday or fun.
Being honest with myself I’m not happy. No sex is a big problem now of course but even before her problems , the sex we did have was never prioritised by her. I tried to keep things fun and romantic but she never reciprocated. 
I don’t want to break my family up but I just can’t see my life changing much for the better.Having healthy kids and being financially good is 1 thing but it doesn’t bring happiness of course.I need my wife to understand my discontentment


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Here's the problem from my perspective: your wife prefers living like a single woman. Why? Because when a married woman with kids wants to spend her free time drinking and partying rather than spend her time pursuing interests/hobbies with her husband and kids, she's checked out of the marriage. There is nothing wrong hanging out with the girls and having a good time now and then, but it sounds like your wife prefers it.

Does your wife know how you feel about her partying? I'd suggest you assert yourself and let her know how you feel.


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## CuriousC (May 7, 2020)

I don’t think she’s checked out. I’m just not sure how to describe it. She definitely likes socialising. I feel she likes to escape the mundane. We all like that from time to time. Problem is she’s part the cause of the so called mundane. She’s no enthusiasm to get up off her arse. We contribute 50/50 in terms of kids and housework. Maybe she’s a bit more housework and me a bit more kids but in general all good there. 
I do agree with you , I think she prefers spending social occasions with her friends. I don’t think she enjoys my company as she’s no interest in hobbies and stuff I do - her hobby is socialising and tv. I definitely feel like we are like housemates and no sex is further reinforcing that. I just don’t know how to bring this up to her. I’ve done it before and nothing changed.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Who are the friends she’s socializing with, are they single people or couples? Another question, I see your in Ireland, how can your wife be traveling with friends during the lockdown?


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## CuriousC (May 7, 2020)

Andy1001 said:


> Who are the friends she’s socializing with, are they single people or couples? Another question, I see your in Ireland, how can your wife be traveling with friends during the lockdown?


Hi 
Yes it’s her school friends and one of them is single.
Travelling was done a couple of years back. First it was Vegas and then Dubai.


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## CuriousC (May 7, 2020)

Prodigal said:


> Here's the problem from my perspective: your wife prefers living like a single woman. Why? Because when a married woman with kids wants to spend her free time drinking and partying rather than spend her time pursuing interests/hobbies with her husband and kids, she's checked out of the marriage. There is nothing wrong hanging out with the girls and having a good time now and then, but it sounds like your wife prefers it.
> 
> Does your wife know how you feel about her partying? I'd suggest you assert yourself and let her know how you feel.


Just rereading your reply. I have brought up the partying and I was told bluntly that I can’t stop her living her life and spending time with her friends. Being honest I take her point on this BUT there has to be someone for me right. She has to be willing to invest in our relationship, doing fun things together, physical side of things and I don’t think this is the case.


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## CrAzYdOgLaDy (Mar 22, 2021)

I think your wife needs a wake up call. I feel she is maybe content with you and has let herself go (over eating, no exercise, no sex) she has forgotten how to be a wife (enjoying her friends company more than yours) she has you where she wants you (at home) she feels like she doesn't need to impress you anymore because she already has you. She needs to be shocked back into reality and acknowledge she has a husband with needs also. She is neglecting her husband and I'm not on about just the sex. Her husband is miserable and you need to tell her how miserable you are. Many of us stay in unhappy marriages for our children, sacrificing our own happiness, needs etc. I finally left my husband after 7 years of hell (married 10 years) and it took a toll on my mental health. Left him a year ago and I'm still fixing me. If she isn't willing to be a better wife leave her before your mental health suffers. Children can pick up when their parents aren't happy and then you end up with damaged children too. It does affect them and it's best to have 2 happy parents seperate, than 2 miserable parents all in one house. Hope you figure it out. Good luck.

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## CrAzYdOgLaDy (Mar 22, 2021)

CrAzYdOgLaDy said:


> I think your wife needs a wake up call. I feel she is maybe content with you and has let herself go (over eating, no exercise, no sex) she has forgotten how to be a wife (enjoying her friends company more than yours) she has you where she wants you (at home) she feels like she doesn't need to impress you anymore because she already has you. She needs to be shocked back into reality and acknowledge she has a husband with needs also. She is neglecting her husband and I'm not on about just the sex. Her husband is miserable and you need to tell her how miserable you are. Many of us stay in unhappy marriages for our children, sacrificing our own happiness, needs etc. I finally left my husband after 7 years of hell (married 10 years) and it took a toll on my mental health. Left him a year ago and I'm still fixing me. If she isn't willing to be a better wife leave her before your mental health suffers. Children can pick up when their parents aren't happy and then you end up with damaged children too. It does affect them and it's best to have 2 happy parents seperate, than 2 miserable parents all in one house. Hope you figure it out. Good luck.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk


I understand also she has pain. I have pain also and lots of surgeries due to my health issues, but intimacy isn't just sex. I ended up not having sex with my ex husband and I couldn't even hug him by the time i left but I went through abuse. If there is no abuse you need to tell her how you feel and she can tell you how she feels. Talk to each other or it will get worse.

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## CuriousC (May 7, 2020)

CrAzYdOgLaDy said:


> I understand also she has pain. I have pain also and lots of surgeries due to my health issues, but intimacy isn't just sex. I ended up not having sex with my ex husband and I couldn't even hug him by the time i left but I went through abuse. If there is no abuse you need to tell her how you feel and she can tell you how she feels. Talk to each other or it will get worse.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk


When I read your post a lot of your comments resonated with me. Just realised something else this morning. She can be moody quite often - this morning she wasn’t . Big kiss - have a good day etc. It’s times like this that I love. But it just doesn’t happen often enough. I’ve lost some interest to be honest too. I feel resentment at times towards her and I don’t like that as it’s not the kind of person I am. I’m usually full of energy, enthusiastic, positive but I know myself my true being is being stymied in the relationship. I just need something from her side in terms of intimacy. She will never ever mention our sex life, our marriage. You say she is content and I think you’re right. But I’m not


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## CrAzYdOgLaDy (Mar 22, 2021)

It's time to think of yourself too. You deserve happiness. Why should she be happy and content yet her husband isn't? Wishing you the best from Scotland.

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## CuriousC (May 7, 2020)

CrAzYdOgLaDy said:


> It's time to think of yourself too. You deserve happiness. Why should she be happy and content yet her husband isn't? Wishing you the best from Scotland.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk


Understood. Thanks for messages.
My biggest concern is how best to handle this. I don’t want her to feel this is an ultimatum yet I need it to be serious. Anyway I’ll try figure it out.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Have you considered a trial separation?


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## CuriousC (May 7, 2020)

Blondilocks said:


> Have you considered a trial separation?


No - being honest I want things to work. Appreciate there will have to be compromises and I’m willing to accept that. The last thing i want to do is break up my family but I know we need to change things in our marriage and it’s both of us. I’m here writing and I know my side is truthful but I know she has her side which is equally important.


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## D0nnivain (Mar 13, 2021)

CuriousC said:


> Should I confront her?


Confront? Hell no. 

Instead make home life more fun. You organize active things with the kids. Go hiking as a family. Play mini golf or real golf. Buy a trampoline. Re-create the old President's council on physical fitness. Go bike riding. What you do isn't as important as getting off the couch doing fun things together. 

If your wife is willing to travel with her friends, she would probably be open to traveling with you. Can you book a long weekend somewhere with or preferably without the kids? Do you have date nights? If not, start. Ramp up the romance . . .candle light, maybe dancing even if it's in your bedroom. Bring some of the old magic back.


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## CuriousC (May 7, 2020)

D0nnivain said:


> Confront? Hell no.
> 
> Instead make home life more fun. You organize active things with the kids. Go hiking as a family. Play mini golf or real golf. Buy a trampoline. Re-create the old President's council on physical fitness. Go bike riding. What you do isn't as important as getting off the couch doing fun things together.
> 
> If your wife is willing to travel with her friends, she would probably be open to traveling with you. Can you book a long weekend somewhere with or preferably without the kids? Do you have date nights? If not, start. Ramp up the romance . . .candle light, maybe dancing even if it's in your bedroom. Bring some of the old magic back.


Thanks. Problem is that there is a limit for me to keep trying when no return. Most of the above items you mentioned have been done . I can’t keep initiating and then nothing changes. Romance yes tried dinners, favourite bottle of wine . Suggested early nights for massage/shower together etc etc. 
everything regarding intimacy is always something that she’s in control of.Arranging a night or two every week for intimacy was rebuffed.She watches tv and phones during the week and goes to bed when she’s ready and then I’m expected to be ready for it if she’s ready. This could be near 11 at night. She thinks this is fine


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Have you ever considered doing less for her? As in absolutely nothing for her?

Next time she asks you to open the lid on a jar, shrug your shoulders and tell her you don't really feel like it.

Next time she wants to vent to you about her day, shrug your shoulders and tell her that you're not really interested in hearing about her day.

Next time she wants anything from you in general... Shrug your shoulders, and tell her no.

Then when she loses her ****, look at her and tell her that she made it clear you only do what you feel like doing for each other. Then tell her if she would like more from you, she can start by doing more for you.

Stop allowing her to be comfortable in the midst of your own discomfort.

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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I had similar problems. After a lot of futile attempts and trial and error I made a list of things I wanted out of our sexual relationship and shared it with her. Some of the items on my list had nothing to do with sex itself and they included:

Go to bed at the same time as me at least twice a week.

Don’t use devices in bed unless we agree to it or the other partner is sleeping.

Sound familiar? Anyway I brought these up with her when I was already about a month into the 180. If you don’t know what that is read “The Dead Bedroom Fix” by @dadstartingover. You should also first make sure you’re not an unattractive slob. The book will give you guidance on that.

Anyway when you’re sure you have your stuff together and you have a real talk (once) she needs to be made to understand the severity of the situation. In my case it was we need to fix it or I am out.

Then you either fix it or you’re done and you try again with someone else.


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## CuriousC (May 7, 2020)

farsidejunky said:


> Have you ever considered doing less for her? As in absolutely nothing for her?
> 
> Next time she asks you to open the lid on a jar, shrug your shoulders and tell her you don't really feel like it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this


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## CuriousC (May 7, 2020)

ccpowerslave said:


> I had similar problems. After a lot of futile attempts and trial and error I made a list of things I wanted out of our sexual relationship and shared it with her. Some of the items on my list had nothing to do with sex itself and they included:
> 
> Go to bed at the same time as me at least twice a week.
> 
> ...


Ok it sounds like this is a decent book to read. I am going to try this. Thanks a lot


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

CuriousC said:


> I am attracted to her but sometimes I feel she won’t do anything for me. She’ll head off to Dubai with her friends but certainly won’t try work on our sex life and marriage.


Do you ever offer to take her to exciting and different places? 

My wife always complains that I never want to go anywhere or do anything. I am just now appreciating that I am the number one person that she would want to go places with and have fun together. Historically when I would worry about travel costs and logistics, that probably didn't make me feel like a fun person to be around.


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## CuriousC (May 7, 2020)

badsanta said:


> Do you ever offer to take her to exciting and different places?
> 
> My wife always complains that I never want to go anywhere or do anything. I am just now appreciating that I am the number one person that she would want to go places with and have fun together. Historically when I would worry about travel costs and logistics, that probably didn't make me feel like a fun person to be around.


Oh yeah, brought her to hotels for nights out with just the 2 of us and when we had no kids , many foreign trips away. I don’t doubt she loves me but I think she’s content with how things are. She gets excitement and fun when she’s with her friends. I’m seen as the person who’s there with the family- and when she’s with friends then she can escape the family. Problem really is I’m not the one that she feels she can have exciting times with. I generally don’t stay up all night drinking- her and her friends will.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Confronting someone about not being interested in you only makes them less interested. The better path is to allow yourself to emotional retreat and focus only on yourself. You keep tending to her then you only get more of the same. I never said she is a bad woman....I’m saying the two of you likely have different levels of emotional investment. Sexuality is not something your wife needs from you to be satisfied in life..... it doesn’t affect her. With that in mind you have to realize it makes it hard for her to understand what all the fuss is about. The hard truth is that your wife isn’t into you in a sexual way. That is an almost impossible ship to turn around. The ONLY way is for YOU to change YOU.

Keep in mind your wife has a few health issues...she doesn’t feel sexy to begin with.

Having “the talk” is a dead end.


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## CuriousC (May 7, 2020)

Mr.Married said:


> Confronting someone about not being interested in you only makes them less interested. The better path is to allow yourself to emotional retreat and focus only on yourself. You keep tending to her then you only get more of the same. I never said she is a bad woman....I’m saying the two of you likely have different levels of emotional investment. Sexuality is not something your wife needs from you to be satisfied in life..... it doesn’t affect her. With that in mind you have to realize it makes it hard for her to understand what all the fuss is about. The hard truth is that your wife isn’t into you in a sexual way. That is an almost impossible ship to turn around. The ONLY way is for YOU to change YOU.
> 
> Keep in mind your wife has a few health issues...she doesn’t feel sexy to begin with.
> 
> Having “the talk” is a dead end.


Interesting comment.
Health issues - understood but even before health issues it was the same. So when you say I need to change - where will that get me. Change on what terms? How will it help with the marriage and my concerns. I think a lot of your points are valid and true by the way.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

CuriousC said:


> Interesting comment.
> Health issues - understood but even before health issues it was the same. So when you say I need to change - where will that get me. Change on what terms? How will it help with the marriage and my concerns. I think a lot of your points are valid and true by the way.


Read the books:

No More Mr. Nice Guy
Mating in Captivity 
Married Man Sex Life Primer
What Women really Want

Following the advice of the garbage you see on TV and what the vast majority of society will tell you will only get you more of where your at. Be careful of how you process all this as it will probably change the way you see some things.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

I’m going to add ..... almost reluctantly..... that you read The Rational Male.
Do not take this book as some kind of woman hate manual like a lot of men do. It is only for further information.
Education is the key in most things in life. Do something constructive with what you learn.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting to come to a different result. If you want a different result .... CHANGE YOURSELF.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

CuriousC said:


> So when you say I need to change - where will that get me.


It's called doing the 180. And it may get nothing from your wife, but you will likely benefit greatly. Your self-confidence will increase and you will feel better about yourself. The thing is, women respect a man with self-confidence. Thus, one of the residual effects of the 180 is your wife may find you far more interesting when she notices the change.


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## CuriousC (May 7, 2020)

Thanks - very insightful and I’m already reading.


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## CuriousC (May 7, 2020)

CuriousC said:


> Thanks - very insightful and I’m already reading.


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## CuriousC (May 7, 2020)

So I read the dead bedroom fix. All I can say is wow. So much of it resonated loudly with me.But I do have questions. 
I keep fit - she doesn’t.
I’m enthusiastic/energetic with kids- she isn’t.
I’m into the sexual side - I’d do anything for her - she won’t.
Being honest after reading the book I do reckon I come across as needy . She holds all the cards. 
I will try the 180 approach but I’m almost sure she won’t notice! I’m also unsure how to handle our interactions whilst I make some changes. Typically I always go to bed first - she follows when she’s finished tv and scrolling through her phone. Needy me - will wait until she comes down in the hope I might get something. I’m actually sick and tired of this. She obliges but now I feel like saying no completely. 
still a bit confused but parts are becoming clear to me.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

So Curious a few things to consider.

If you think you might be a nice guy there is a whole book written about that. It’s called “No More Mr. Nice Guy” by Glover. I think DSO references it in his book. It is very detailed on the many aspects of niceness and how to counter them. I’m not a nice guy at all and I struggled to read it but I did anyway just to get a full picture.

Second, if you’re still trying to absorb the book and you want to talk with folks about it DSO has his own community which you can find through his site. I haven’t used it because I haven’t needed it but they might be able to help you. He also offers 1-1 coaching.

I had one of your exact problems.

Mrs. has zero desire in the morning; normal because women’s testosterone peaks in the evening whereas men have their peak in the am. She comes to bed usually 3-5 hours later than me and when she did she would build a pillow wall between us and mess around on her phone.

I didn’t stay up waiting for her as I have stuff to do and I need my body to repair itself. If I felt like it I would watch porn and take care of myself.

So I quit watching porn completely and also quit taking care of myself (180). I was busy completing the rest of my 180 and getting rid of my unattractive behaviors and making progress. Eventually I had crossed everything off my mental list of things to do.

So with regards to the 180 fitness is an obvious thing but you can literally 180 almost any aspect of your life. Any bad habits? Quit them. Dress bad? Get some new clothes. Get a haircut. Shave every day. Start studying or learning something useful. Join a local club or organization. Whatever you normally do, plus it and make it better.

Of course she noticed I was changing and just like the book says it made her uncomfortable which is the entire point. She wasn’t doing anything about it and didn’t know what I was doing or why but she could tell something was happening.

So that is when I confronted her. I had a list of things to talk with her about, this is pasted exactly from my list in the order I wrote them, so literally the first two items on there:


I would like to go to bed and or wake up at the same time more often. Maybe start with twice during the week.
When I am in bed I have easy access to my wife and do not have to fight through blankets and pillows or have to deal with her body positioned far in front of me.
Sound familiar? #5:

I would like our time together to be free from devices in the bedroom unless we discuss it first and neither of us is up for intimacy.​
The hits keep coming! So the manosphere literature here will often say you don’t bother with “the talk”. To be honest I forget exactly what DSO says about it but all of the references agree you shouldn’t do it more than once. Take your time and plan it out and be in the correct “matter of fact” mindset.

In the “don’t bother” with the talk camp all of the work leading up to it will help make it easier for you to divorce and leave. This is also the endgame if the talk doesn’t work. The 180 lets your wife know by your actions that you have changed and you’re not going to tolerate things as they are anymore one way or the other.

No talk and all just bail if she doesn’t figure out what you’re doing is callous. I think if you’re operating from the standpoint of you wanting to be with this person you should give them a chance to adapt to where you’re at.

So how you handle her while doing the 180 is you basically ignore that you’re doing these things. They’re just matter of fact this is how you operate now. If you want you can stop initiating as part of your 180. I stopped the bulk of mine.

I did a lot of other things as well. It is very important you identify and shut down any unattractive behaviors you have or anything that presses on your wife’s brakes. This involves a lot of thinking about what the difference is between now when you’re not having sex and before when you were having sex.

The manosphere literature often simplifies this and suggests it’s a lack of NRE. It’s hormones that have gone. Blah blah... Yes these things have changed, but how you treat your wife probably also changed. If it did, and you think these changes are not helpful for your sexual relationship then you need to 180 those things.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

So it occurred to me I didn’t say anything about how to get out of the bedtime phone quagmire. After confronting her about it she did agree things were bad, she didn’t want to get a divorce, and she wanted to work on things.

This is where you need patience. I am an impatient man so for me even after almost a year of fixing I can still be set off. Every minor backslide for many months sent me right back to doubling down on the 180.

If I got up at 1am to take a drink and she’s coming to bed looking at Facebook well I’m off to the gym for an extra half an hour. I take care of something that needs to be taken care of on the house. I work longer or harder. She would notice this happening and put 2+2 together. This isn’t about how you treat her it’s about how you treat yourself.

She still does this from time to time.

I don’t even know when she went to bed last night but it was way after me and she was probably on her phone. I don’t care though because even though she is having her feminine time she took care of me manually in the morning and then in the shower again an hour later.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

CuriousC said:


> So I read the dead bedroom fix. All I can say is wow. So much of it resonated loudly with me.But I do have questions.
> I keep fit - she doesn’t.
> I’m enthusiastic/energetic with kids- she isn’t.
> I’m into the sexual side - I’d do anything for her - she won’t.
> ...


You seem needy because you are needy.

Your response to her withdrawal has been to pursue, which is sort of like pushing a rope.

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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Honest question, OP. 

Are you willing to allow your relationship to die? 

Please understand this is a dramatically different question than whether or not you are willing to divorce. 

In other words, would you be willing to do so little for her that she choses to leave you?



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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Op here’s a suggestion. Every day or at least every other day do something without the kids that your wife would never do. Go on a hike or a bicycle ride, take a trip to another place and visit a museum or an art gallery, go see a movie. Even go for a long walk in the evening. 
She will notice you have started the process of gradually moving on with your life, a life that doesn’t necessarily include her and she will either try to improve your relationship or she won’t. Either way you will have your answer.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Maybe she does love you......in a brotherly kind of way....

@farsidejunky has had some good success @CuriousC so among the other good advice here, you might want to pick his brain on this.

Mrs. C and I had one bump in the road when it came to sex only as she never acted like your wife in regards to going out with me and spending quality time with me.

She has always been my biggest fan but she did get some dumb notions about controlling sexual frequency and doling it out one time.

From your description of what is happening and of your wife and yourself, I think following some of farside's experience would probably be a good fit along with checking out the other research available on this thread.

I did have a talk when I figured out what was going on (took me a few months) and I did give an ultimatum.

It worked immediately and we have never looked back but I'm not a man that has ever been denied sex with regularity.

Here's hoping for your success.


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## CuriousC (May 7, 2020)

ccpowerslave said:


> So it occurred to me I didn’t say anything about how to get out of the bedtime phone quagmire. After confronting her about it she did agree things were bad, she didn’t want to get a divorce, and she wanted to work on things.
> 
> This is where you need patience. I am an impatient man so for me even after almost a year of fixing I can still be set off. Every minor backslide for many months sent me right back to doubling down on the 180.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I have started the process. I definitely have not dressed well enough. I’m determined to bulk up some - I’ve generally always been thin so a bit bulk will do no harm. 
Regarding bedtime routine - yes if she came down a couple of nights with me I’d be fine. I don’t want to control anyone - we all have our own intricacies. The thing that drives me nuts is when she says she’ll be down in a minute and every single time it’s at least half an hour later. But I’m gonna forget that now. I’m looking out for me


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## CuriousC (May 7, 2020)

farsidejunky said:


> Honest question, OP.
> 
> Are you willing to allow your relationship to die?
> 
> ...


Being honest I do want it to work but it can’t work the way it is currently or the way it’s been for many years now. I’ve had it with the investing that I’ve put in and little to none on her side. If things don’t improve then I ain’t going to stay unhappy for the rest of my life. She has to step up or else to be honest


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## CuriousC (May 7, 2020)

Andy1001 said:


> Op here’s a suggestion. Every day or at least every other day do something without the kids that your wife would never do. Go on a hike or a bicycle ride, take a trip to another place and visit a museum or an art gallery, go see a movie. Even go for a long walk in the evening.
> She will notice you have started the process of gradually moving on with your life, a life that doesn’t necessarily include her and she will either try to improve your relationship or she won’t. Either way you will have your answer.


Yes I’ve started this. I’m investing more time in me, I’ll meet my friends . I’m not going to sit around investing in her and putting her first etc . Don’t get me wrong I’m not going to be rude or disrespectful but I’ll just do my thing. If she doesn’t suggest to go to bed together etc then nothing will happen. I just can’t keep going through this needy stuff. I have myself and I’m going to invest more in me.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

CuriousC said:


> Thanks. I have started the process. I definitely have not dressed well enough. I’m determined to bulk up some - I’ve generally always been thin so a bit bulk will do no harm.
> Regarding bedtime routine - yes if she came down a couple of nights with me I’d be fine. I don’t want to control anyone - we all have our own intricacies. The thing that drives me nuts is when she says she’ll be down in a minute and every single time it’s at least half an hour later. But I’m gonna forget that now. I’m looking out for me


This is what the manosphere will call a **** test.

She will tell me “I really need to work tonight”. Code for, not coming to bed.

Ok, no big deal. She sometimes really does need to work. How about you come to bed for half an hour then go work?

Stay hard on these **** tests. Don’t tolerate it. If she has a physical problem and it’s real well then yeah that’s real.

If it’s a **** test like, “I’m sick but I am going to do everything else I would do EXCEPT come to bed and have sex.” well then the answer to that is no. Do not play into that. If she doesn’t want to come to bed and have sex then that’s fine but she needs to own that and wear it.

In her mind the thinks it’s ok to tell you she’ll be there in a minute and she shows up in 30. She’s probably waiting you out on purpose. My wife did exactly this and she still tries it now and then. Ok look he’s sleeping what a shame!

She needs to know that you know she’s doing this and it’s not ok. If she’s not coming to bed because she’s avoiding intimacy then she needs to confront that. Maybe she confronts it and she’s happy with what she sees, maybe not. The thing is you need to force that confrontation.

I think in their own mind they think nothing is wrong. So they need to know something is wrong and you noticed. It’s up to her to fix that (or not) but at this point she knows the stakes.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

One other thing with what I wrote up there is it sounds really harsh. In some ways it is really harsh. What isn’t there is you need to be doing the reciprocal work.

What would she say about what you?

In order to have real success you need to be looking at yourself and fixing that. You can only change yourself, it’s up to the other person to change themselves.

What I wrote in terms of the **** testing is them fighting back against changing. Change is difficult especially if like me you have let things go for a long time like we had.


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## CuriousC (May 7, 2020)

ccpowerslave said:


> One other thing with what I wrote up there is it sounds really harsh. In some ways it is really harsh. What isn’t there is you need to be doing the reciprocal work.
> 
> What would she say about what you?
> 
> ...


Thanks so much to all for your help. In some ways it really helps that others have gone through issues too. Look we never want to hurt the ones we love but living unhappy in some ways is hurting them anyone. She knows it’s not happening, she knows all about my sex drive and her own, she knows (from numerous chats) that I’m not satisfied. It just doesn’t cause a reaction . But this is going to change either for the better or worse. I obviously hope for the former but in some ways I can’t see it happening and it really frightens me if it doesn’t work out


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

Mr.Married said:


> I’m going to add ..... almost reluctantly..... that you read The Rational Male.
> Do not take this book as some kind of woman hate manual like a lot of men do. It is only for further information.
> Education is the key in most things in life. Do something constructive with what you learn.
> Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting to come to a different result. If you want a different result .... CHANGE YOURSELF.


Agreed. The purpose is so you don't hate women for, well..... just being women. Also for recognizing that as men we have a burden of performance for ourselves.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

CuriousC said:


> ... she knows all about my sex drive and her own, she knows (from numerous chats) that I’m not satisfied. It just doesn’t cause a reaction .


Well of course it doesn't cause a reaction! Talking is just that ... talking. She probably figures you aren't going anywhere because you aren't giving ultimatums. You've discussed it with her. She knows where you stand. Dispense with all the talk and take concrete action. Either that, or continue to live in a vast sexual wasteland. Your life. Your choice.


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