# Thermostat Question for MEM11363 and All



## TheJourneyBegins (Feb 24, 2012)

Hi all. I’m new to the Forums, and I’m sorry this is so long. Hope you can help!

At the beginning of our relationship, passionate frequent sex and fun were the norm. Over the past year my new wife and I have been dancing to a peculiar tune. She and I both have low to mid teen kids, total of 5 from our previous marriage. The issues:
For whatever reason, be it her independence since her last divorce, or a fear of being controlled, SHE has turned out to be very much the Director, with me being one of the many “Extras” in the house. If I use the wrong term in a sentence, or I say something via a colloquialism that she hasn’t been familiar with, I am immediately rebuked in a sharp and snarky tone, whether we are in front of the kids or not.  Should an argument ensue over anything, I have about 6 seconds to make her understand my point before her hand is up, and she says, in no uncertain terms, that she’s “Done”. It is very difficult to talk to her without eliciting some criticism of either the way I said it, or even the subject. Her tone and her demeanor in dealing with my “behavior” is exactly the same as it is when dealing with her kids when they misbehave.

I am the “Hot” partner in the relationship. These are the points that completely describe me:

“1. Are almost always saying ILY or IAILWY first
2. Typically initiate calls/texts/emails when apart/one or both are at work
3. Make “peace” after a fight even when your partner clearly wronged you 
4. Walk around visibly angry/VERY angry after a fight (this comes across as “I am furious that you – the person I LOVE SO MUCH – is doing x,y,z to ME
5. Anxiously keep trying to make up when you were in the wrong because you cannot bear having them angry with you *(THIS ONE IS HUGE FOR ME)*
6. Are mostly/always initiating physical contact (hugs, kisses, touches, groping) *(HUGE)*
7. When anxious you initiate “talks” about the R, typically to “fix” them/their behavior 
8. Do WAY MORE than your fair share of housework
9. Put their needs ahead of yours whenever there is a priority conflict
10. Are constantly seeking their approval
11. Show anxiety or fear when they are angry/frustrated with you
12. Initiate sex when their body language radiates a “lack” of interest/desire, pout/sulk get angry when they tactfully decline sex

She has told me things like “If you want to be the man of the house, OWN IT, don’t grovel, don’t try to please me or apologize over and over. That’s SOOO annoying”.

We don’t get to spend much time together alone. I have my kids one week on, one week off, and she has hers virtually 24/7. 5 days/week I get home at 5 pm, clean kitchen, start dinner, she gets home at 6, immediately goes to her kids room to start helping him with his homework (learning issues), comes up when I tell her that dinner is ready, gets food for her and kids, goes back down to room/living area until homework is done. Then, she’ll generally hang out with her kids until their bedtime, which is also HER bedtime. She then goes to bed, I follow, and we talk for about 10 minutes until she’s asleep. Sex happens only when the stars align, and when she wants it (like when I’m late taking the kids to school, she touches me sexually and then suddenly has to have it then….how can I say no?)

I found this site in a fortuitous, desperate search for answers as to why my bride suddenly said to me “I’m not going to respond to sexual comments when you talk to me as it just ramps you up, and these days I’m not feeling sexual at all” (we’ve made and missed several “appointments” for sex…... ). Read the Man up and Nice Guy reference links, and the Thermostat references in great detail.

I am absolutely sure this is a hot/cold problem , and feel that I ‘m not respected…..last night I teased her good naturedly when she was telling a story , and she “got me back” by pitching the COLD water in her glass into my face (in front of my 18 year old who thought it was hilarious). Looking back on it, it would have been funny, but it was also a sign of disrespect, I think. If I had EVER done that to her, I’d never live it down.

Coincidentally, I had developed the idea of backing off of the ILY, You’re so Gorgeous, You’re so Beautiful, constant touching, groping, kissing, hugging gravy train all on my own, based on the fact that if I’d done it before, she seemed to come to ME. I’ve done this for 1 or 2 days since the “just ramps you up” remark, and in the intervening time she has: approached me and kissed me passionately, flashed me, stood in front of me nude while getting ready in the morning and called my attention to it repeatedly, bitten my neck and touched me sexually prior to starting homework, started a sexually oriented massage on me (before falling asleep during said massage). On all of these occasions I responded in a lukewarm manner if at all. My physical sexual response was obvious, but I didn’t move a muscle to reciprocate. I have been saying “You too” when she says ILY, and NOT initiating any contact or saying ILY. I have replied briefly to her texts. Last night when I came to bed, she moved against me, pulled up her and my shirts to touch her chest to my back, and touched me sexually. I responded as though I were asleep. 

The question, after this long winded comment: Am I doing all of these things in an advisable manner? I am truly in love with her, but I can’t keep being the only one who desires sex and intimacy. What else should I be doing? Should I go straight to Absolute zero, or stick with my VERY COLD to COLD responses? My worry is that she has always said that the longer she goes without sex, the less she wants it, and when it has been a long time she has to have sex once to get back to wanting it again, the first one being just a primer and not very enjoyable. Is it likely in your experience that cooling off may just precipitate THIS pattern?

Any help would be appreciated, as I ManUp and try to take back the relationship and the wife I want and love.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Do not define yourself, your happiness, or your emotional state by another person.


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## SomeLady (Feb 21, 2012)

Throwing a glass of water in your face would be considered abuse by some people. At some point, you are going to need to make it clear that that crosses a line and neither of you can do that sort of thing to one another.

She seems to want to be in control. The way she's been flashing you, massaging you, etc.. Do you think it's because she desires you or because she wants to check and see that she still has power over you?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Do not define yourself, your happiness, *or your emotional state by another person.*


Deejo I actually think that’s an almost impossibility. Our emotions are triggered by other people, especially those we love, as to whether we want the emotion or not. In fact it’s been proven that at times we have emotions without even being consciously aware of them. Those emotions can take their time to reach our conscious awareness. Sometimes they ramp up like they are on autopilot until we do take note of them.


“No man is an island entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main ……”. We are all linked by our emotions, by our ability to trigger emotions in others. Some more than others but nevertheless all linked.


I don’t think it right to deny or subjugate, subdue our emotions (to deny them) but instead to look to understand how they came about in the first place and learn from the experience. I think people who have been deeply hurt “close down” their emotions because they never want to get hurt again.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

A couple of thoughts:

It is fine to respond to your wife approaching you. The key is that you are letting her take active participation in the marriage, including the sexual part. When she responds positively, you can do likewise. Give her some positive feedback without going back to overheating.

As for the glass of water, that would likely have been a huge issue for me. While there are circumstances where it could have been fun, having it thrown in my face after a bit of teasing, particularly in front of my son would not have gone over well. What was her tone and body language? Was she angry, or was this with a laugh and a glint in her eye? If angry, I would have stood up, told her coldly that such behavior was not acceptable and that she can never do that again, and then walked away. If with laughter, I would have grabbed her, put her over my knee and spanked her, then taken her to bed later for some hard sex. Either way, it was a fitness test that you need to learn to pass.


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## TheJourneyBegins (Feb 24, 2012)

I hadn't considered that she is checking that she still has power over me. It's happened before that when I back off, she comes to me and says things like "What's up...you've been do distant lately"....and flirts with me. I hope it's not that she's just testing her power....And she does seem to want to be in control, but after the water incident, she made a point of saying that she could "warm me up", and kind of downplayed it ("It wasn't THAT cold") to the point where I think that there was some embarrassment there...


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I think you are just getting to know who your wife really is and that you have a way to go as yet. To help you out read Awareness (Anthony de Mello). He will help you “detach” from her, to be not so dependent on her and get to see who she really is.


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## TheJourneyBegins (Feb 24, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> A couple of thoughts:
> 
> It is fine to respond to your wife approaching you. The key is that you are letting her take active participation in the marriage, including the sexual part. When she responds positively, you can do likewise. Give her some positive feedback without going back to overheating.
> 
> As for the glass of water, that would likely have been a huge issue for me. While there are circumstances where it could have been fun, having it thrown in my face after a bit of teasing, particularly in front of my son would not have gone over well. What was her tone and body language? Was she angry, or was this with a laugh and a glint in her eye? If angry, I would have stood up, told her coldly that such behavior was not acceptable and that she can never do that again, and then walked away. If with laughter, I would have grabbed her, put her over my knee and spanked her, then taken her to bed later for some hard sex. Either way, it was a fitness test that you need to learn to pass.


SHe was telling a story to my son, humorous in nature, and describing a "strange" guy. As she did so, I smiled and pointed to her so my son could see me and made laughing gestures.. her back was to me and she was facing my son...couldn't see her face, but she threw the water over her shoulder and said "Oh, look, my cup is empty...must have a leak"...then joked about it. It was water cooler water, so it was cold, and I didn't react at all except that my breath was taken away. just said...."Oooooookkkkkkk....", she said she'd warm me up, and I said "That's ok...I got it". She would have taken me spanking her and taking her up for some hard sex as using it as an excuse to try to get sex when she's already told me she's not in a "sexual" mood lately, so that would have been a problem.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Next time you get the opportunity just throw a glass of water over her. And make a joke of it.


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## TheJourneyBegins (Feb 24, 2012)

AFEH said:


> Next time you get the opportunity just throw a glass of water over her. And make a joke of it.


I should. We do have a massive double standard issue, in that a lot of stuff she does she would NEVER tolerate (and hasn"t) from me. I think I will try this, but I do know that the outcome is very predictable.....she will be enraged, call me a child for "getting back at her", and lock herself in our bedroom for a while, or spend what time we would have had together with her kids....that is, AWAY from me. There would be no discussing it. Interesting approach.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

TheJourneyBegins said:


> She has told me things like “If you want to be the man of the house, OWN IT, don’t grovel, don’t try to please me or apologize over and over. That’s SOOO annoying”.


Sounds to me like you have a dominant woman who wants you to dominate her. Or at least at the moment she thinks she wants you to dominate her. It’s very different than having a submissive woman who wants to be dominated, wants the man to take the lead.


I think if you do try and dominate her then you are in for very big clashes. And they wont be “nice”.


But if you let her dominate you, unless you like that sort of thing I think your marriage is going to be very uncomfortable for you.


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## TheJourneyBegins (Feb 24, 2012)

AFEH said:


> Sounds to me like you have a dominant woman who wants you to dominate her. Or at least at the moment she thinks she wants you to dominate her. It’s very different than having a submissive woman who wants to be dominated, wants the man to take the lead.
> 
> 
> I think if you do try and dominate her then you are in for very big clashes. And they wont be “nice”.
> ...


SHe's been dominant in sex, and it turns us both on. However, that's not everyday life.

As far as Absolute zero, Very Cold, Cold, or cool...where do you all suggest I start? I think I started at VERY COLD, ALMOST absolute zero. But I WOULD like to respond when she initiates........


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## TheJourneyBegins (Feb 24, 2012)

SprucHub said:


> I disagree on retaliating with water. One line: throwing water at me is unacceptable, understand? Said firmly, but calmly, like an adult, then walk away.
> 
> On the other stuff, you can respond to your wife, you are physically anyway. Just don't get sappy and keep in mind she is chasing you.


After thinking it over for a bit, my feeling about the water thing is that I won't do it. I don't accept it being done to me, and I won't do to others what I will not accept. 

In your opinion, is her behavior indicative of her chasing me? Perhaps because she feels the pullback and doesn't like it?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Should have rephrased. What I usually say is:

"Don't make someone else *responsible* for your happiness.

It's yours You own it. Others contribute to it or diminish it.

If you are being a good partner, and if you have a good partner, you should generally be working towards the contribution aspect with the occasional setback.

But ... if the dynamic you have established sets the tone of what one partner thinks and does is more important, or has more value than what the other partner thinks and does, then you are already on the downward spiral.


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## TheJourneyBegins (Feb 24, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> A couple of thoughts:
> 
> It is fine to respond to your wife approaching you. The key is that you are letting her take active participation in the marriage, including the sexual part. When she responds positively, you can do likewise. Give her some positive feedback without going back to overheating.


Does responding to her advances not run the risk of confirming for her that she has power over me in that I'll respond to her, but she doesn't have to respond to me? I certainly don't want to convey the impression that I'm a puppet on a string, but then, if I DON'T respond, she may quit trying.......:scratchhead:


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

You should PM Conrad as he seems to have had some similar circumstances - combined families in a second marriage with children from each spouse, a disrespectful/combatant wife.

The thing is, that in essence, YOU need to feel deep inside yourself that you are a person worthy of respect and devotion, and that you will not tolerate someone abusing or disrespecting you - whether that is physically, emotionally, mentally.

When you feel that way, then you have empowered yourself. You are in control of your thoughts, your actions - you can calmy decide how you will react when your wife tries to push your buttons.

No one here has recommended this book yet. You might want to take a look at it and see if it resonates with you:

http://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf

Best wishes.


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## TheJourneyBegins (Feb 24, 2012)

Enchantment said:


> You should PM Conrad as he seems to have had some similar circumstances - combined families in a second marriage with children from each spouse, a disrespectful/combatant wife.
> 
> The thing is, that in essence, YOU need to feel deep inside yourself that you are a person worthy of respect and devotion, and that you will not tolerate someone abusing or disrespecting you - whether that is physically, emotionally, mentally.
> 
> ...


Reading it now...it seems spot on!


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

That's a good book recommendation. I would also suggest THIS one, too. There's a blog and book at that link. The blog has basically the same info, but the book is laid out in a more accessible way.


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## TheJourneyBegins (Feb 24, 2012)

Enchantment said:


> You should PM Conrad as he seems to have had some similar circumstances - combined families in a second marriage with children from each spouse, a disrespectful/combatant wife.
> 
> The thing is, that in essence, YOU need to feel deep inside yourself that you are a person worthy of respect and devotion, and that you will not tolerate someone abusing or disrespecting you - whether that is physically, emotionally, mentally.
> 
> ...


In the book he suggests sharing it with your spouse if you're going to work the program. In my particular situation, would sharing be counterproductive?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

TheJourneyBegins said:


> Does responding to her advances not run the risk of confirming for her that she has power over me in that I'll respond to her, but she doesn't have to respond to me? I certainly don't want to convey the impression that I'm a puppet on a string, but then, if I DON'T respond, she may quit trying.......:scratchhead:


The key, like so many things in life, is balance. Respond when you want to but not when you don't. You need to reward good behavior and not reward bad behavior. For example, don't let her use it as a control mechanism. If she owes you an apology, don't respond to her sexual advances until she apologies. If her advances are coming from a place of geniune desire for you, then by all means go with it.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

The tactics she uses in her relationship seem quite a bit more complex than just the hot/cold analogy you use. Its like she tries to become hot in a passive aggressive way just to appease her conscience that she's doing her share of the relationship, but otherwise can't stand you.

Regarding the cold water, my wife and I have a pretty uniform standard: when one of us realizes that we've humiliated the other in front of family, the apology should also be in front of family. Maybe I'm the only one who kind've read this into your post, but she seems to be doing a pretty good job, at least in your post, of making sure that the others in her life see that you are beneath her, in the sense of the way she shows respect for you as a husband. They see the ridicule, the avoidance, or just plain ignoring you. Only you see her attempt at intimacy or warmth, even though it seems like an unhealthy display at that. To think what the children see modelled through their parents.... Its terribly sad. Being colder isn't going to fix this, in my opinion. She'll grow weary and divorce. Becoming a strong, determined man with her, just as you do outside of your relationship with her, seems to be what she'll respect. Maybe I really don't understand the hot/cold theory, but it seems like it should be a component of a bigger plan here.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

TheJourneyBegins said:


> In the book he suggests sharing it with your spouse if you're going to work the program. In my particular situation, would sharing be counterproductive?


Completely counterproductive.

Do you know anything of your wife's childhood?


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## TheJourneyBegins (Feb 24, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Completely counterproductive.
> 
> Do you know anything of your wife's childhood?


I agree.

In terms of her childhood, she's adopted, with extremely strict, fairly controlling parents.


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## TheJourneyBegins (Feb 24, 2012)

Halien said:


> Becoming a strong, determined man with her, just as you do outside of your relationship with her, seems to be what she'll respect. Maybe I really don't understand the hot/cold theory, but it seems like it should be a component of a bigger plan here.


The cold behavior will be temporary, to get the relationship back on track. Being a strong, determined man is what I'm aiming for, and will be permanent.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

TheJourneyBegins said:


> In terms of her childhood, she's adopted, with extremely strict, fairly controlling parents.


I'm not surprised to hear her childhood home was filled with neglect and anger. What you describe of her behavior towards you (ie: the lack of commitment to doing anything different and the anger when not getting her way) screams of an emotionally broken person.

She's likely known what you've wanted for years, but has been secretly angry with you because she's simply terrified to actually commit/submit to a man. She likely distrusts all men and holds them in contempt. You see, people who should not have hurt her DID hurt her a long time ago. You are likely the stand-in for her anger towards them.

Marriage counseling is not what she needs.

Individual counseling IS what she needs - with a focus on her interactions with you - and how she can get past her own anger and the resulting dismissal of your needs in your relationship.

Keep in mind that some people actually attend therapy simply to nurse their own internal anger. Of course, this gets nowhere. Then they end up repeating the same old mistakes for the rest of their lives. They are miserable and they blame everyone but themselves.

The people that hurt her aren't here.

Now, she's paying it forward.

It can stop here. But, she's going to need to fix herself. She's the only one that can.

You taking her crap doesn't help her a bit.

Most importantly, it does nothing positive for you.


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## TheJourneyBegins (Feb 24, 2012)

Conrad said:


> She likely distrusts all men and holds them in contempt. You see, people who should not have hurt her DID hurt her a long time ago. You are likely the stand-in for her anger towards them.
> 
> 
> Individual counseling IS what she needs - with a focus on her interactions with you - and how she can get past her own anger and the resulting dismissal of your needs in your relationship.


Points all well taken. Her parent's aren't mean, just very nitpicky and strict. I've known her for about 3 years. Her previous marriage was to a man who apparently emotionally abused her...she describes having left secretly one night in substantial fear that he might hurt her.

I am currently in individual therapy...have been since my divorce several years ago. I agree that individual therapy is what she needs....of course, to hear her tell it, as long as I go to my sessions and work on myself, things will be fine. 

I've built up the courage to do what it takes to ManUp and become a strong man.....I'm a Nice Guy in spades according to the book I'm reading. I'm accepting of the fact that this could lead to a great turnaround in my relationship with her, or to the relationship's demise. However, in the long run, all the areas of my life will benefit from my departure from "Nice Guy" to strong, confident man. I have very little doubt that she'll respect and love me for that, but if not, not.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

Playing is when you know you can throw the water back in her face. Abuse is when you know that she would have never tolerated the same treatment and she feels entitled to do it to you because she owes you no respect of any kind.

I'm sorry for your situation. If your worst fear is losing her, you need to replace that fear with the fear of completely losing respect for yourself and the respect of your own children.

There is no amount of pleasing or obedience that will change how she treats you.

If you are like me and you don't want to view your relationship with the woman you love as a constant battle for control and dominance you will end the relationship immediately when the strategies noted above don't work.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Journey,
It's great that you have honestly assessed yourself. A+ for self awareness. 
Let's talk a bit about temperature management. As you know, using cold works. That said going from very hot to icy cold frequently is going to wear both of you out. So instead of doing that, find a cool, stable temperature that works for both of you. And then you won't have to do super cold, or not very often.

I totally agree not to throw water in her face. Your next step might be to eliminate your bad / hot behaviors. When she talks to you in a sharp voice in front of the kids ignore her and continue on as if she said nothing. If she escalates and you are talking to a child, ask themto follow you and leave the room.

Don't let her see you get upset, just freeze her out. She is treating you like a child because all that hot behavior comes across as needy, like a child is emotionally needy.

You don't need to escalate this latest battle. You do need to start shaping her behavior.



UOTE=TheJourneyBegins;603615]Points all well taken. Her parent's aren't mean, just very nitpicky and strict. I've known her for about 3 years. Her previous marriage was to a man who apparently emotionally abused her...she describes having left secretly one night in substantial fear that he might hurt her.

I am currently in individual therapy...have been since my divorce several years ago. I agree that individual therapy is what she needs....of course, to hear her tell it, as long as I go to my sessions and work on myself, things will be fine. 

I've built up the courage to do what it takes to ManUp and become a strong man.....I'm a Nice Guy in spades according to the book I'm reading. I'm accepting of the fact that this could lead to a great turnaround in my relationship with her, or to the relationship's demise. However, in the long run, all the areas of my life will benefit from my departure from "Nice Guy" to strong, confident man. I have very little doubt that she'll respect and love me for that, but if not, not.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheJourneyBegins (Feb 24, 2012)

Sorry this reply is SOOO late, but thanks to all of you who advised me and continue to do so. It's still a work in progress, but I'm now doubling down on my efforts to shed my "Nice Guy" persona and become strong and determined, owning my personality and faults as well as virtues.

MEM, thanks for the sage wisdom....I'm following it.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

TheJourneyBegins said:


> Points all well taken. Her parent's aren't mean, just very nitpicky and strict. I've known her for about 3 years. Her previous marriage was to a man who apparently emotionally abused her...she describes having left secretly one night in substantial fear that he might hurt her.


She knew to hide her personality from you long enough to rope you into marriage.

So now she's let the controlling, abusive person she learned to be in childhood out of the bottle.

So this is more complicated than just having you turn into a more dominant male. She's got issues and if she doesn't work on them then all that's happened is that you have done your best to tame the beast. 

Out-manipulating a manipulative, controlling abuser can become a never-ending game of second, third, and fourth-guessing how to behave with them in order to get what you want. 

Look for example at sex. Initiating gets you rejected. Giving her the cold shoulder has her grabbing your weiner. But you didn't have sex either way. So how is that a solution to anything? If she believes you are acting like you don't want sex in order to trick her into initiating then the control freak in her says to double-game you and act uninterested herself.

She's a lot more trouble in the long run than you can fix by reading all this material on how to be an alpha. If she does not acknowledge and work on her abusive, controlling behavior then it is still a vain hope.


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## TheJourneyBegins (Feb 24, 2012)

Very well stated, and very true. The LEAST I can hope for, however, is that I'll benefit substantially from eliminating the "Nice Guy" from my personality. Which, if that's the ONLY thing I get out of this, will be a HUGE benefit for me in the long run.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

How much clearer can she be:

“If you want to be the man of the house, OWN IT, don’t grovel, don’t try to please me or apologize over and over. That’s SOOO annoying”

You let her get away with things and it p!sses her off. You let her berate you in front of the kids. She throws water at you. She sexually teases you. Yet you take it even though it annoys her.

Draw a line in the sand now. Anything disrespectful is addressed immediately, in front of the kids if necessary. She starts treating you as an adult, not as a child.

She does a lot of this because you have taught her that she will get away with it. You have to make her realize that unless she changes, the marriage won't last. Divorce must be an option in all of this. Otherwise she has no consequences for her actions.


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## TheJourneyBegins (Feb 24, 2012)

Chris Taylor said:


> How much clearer can she be:
> 
> :iagree:
> 
> ...


Agreed. I've been working on that exactly. So far, when I've done anything but tried to please her, and showed independence and indifference to outcome, she's come unglued and accused me of all sorts of things. I'm continuing to follow the plan, tho.


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