# Apathetic husband for too long...



## Avalon

Hello, new here. I know nobody can tell me what i should do, but it's good to be able to write it down and be able to vent a bit. My husband and I will be married 23 years next month. We have 2 incredible teenage girls, I feel truly blessed to be their mom because they are such great people. 

Trouble started 9 years ago when I quit my job that I hated and started working from home part time. I had full support from DH to do this. He USED TO BE a fun, loving, caring person and a great father. When I started staying home to work, he stopped parenting, stopped communicating with the kids, stopped being a part of their lives at all except for paying the bills. He became a workaholic and addicted to spending hours on the Internet (nothing illegal, just news and computer tech sorts of things). He stopped participating in life, basically.

I spent years trying to get him to be an active part of the family, things as simple as spending 20 minutes playing cards with the kids, going for a hike, out to a movie, etc. He stopped going to the kids' sporting events, never had a clue what they were doing in school, etc. He was more interested in his computer than his own children.

He has turned into a totally apathetic person, no friends, no hobbies, no interests, virtually nothing in the world that is worth him waking up and getting out of bed for in the morning except his computer time. He does a lot of chores and things around the house, that is not the problem. There has never been any abuse of any kind, just complete apathy about life now.

He provides very well financially for the family, but that is the ONLY that he contributes any more. I can have a better conversation with a brick than with my own husband. I've never stopped living my life, I see my friends, spend a TON of time with our kids and their friends because I truly enjoy being with them, I volunteer at school, I participate in community activities, etc. 

I am a single parent in a 23-year marriage, except for the fact that I live under the same roof as the man who pays the bills. There is nothing left. I wasted years of time and energy trying to get him to be an active part of the family, to have a good relationship with our kids, etc. Time and time again over 9 years he has chosen his priorities, and his own children and family are not one of them. His parents are elderly and need care and he has completely dropped the ball as far as helping them out, he just doesn't care.

I'm done, and I've come to the realization that I'm sooo much better without him, but I feel dead inside when I'm with him. My girls keep asking why we're still with him. The thing is that I have no idea how to survive on my own financially since I've only worked part time from home for the past 9 years and I've been a full time mom. 

OK... long enough sob story for now. It just feels good to get it off my chest and to say it out loud. There are a thousand instances I could hash out, but I won't get into that. 

Any other people out there who are with completely apathetic and emotionless spouses?


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## anx

Is mc an option? 

It's not fair for either of you for neither of you to be happy. Also, prolonging anything because of finances is silly. It's not good or fair to either of you. 

Shake things up somehow. Move out or do the 180 that can be found on this site or in my story in my profile. 

He is just in a rut and potentially depressed. If you want your husband back, shake and push hard. the status quo cannot be ok anymore. 

Hopefully someone else with some more direct experience can chime in.


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## Avalon

I know it's been going on far too long. I spent years wavering between hating that he lives in the same house as his own kids and literally knows nothing about them, and then thinking that it's really not that bad, financially we are fine and it allows me to only work part time and still be a full time mom, back and forth and back and forth... 

Any time I've tried to bring up the subject that he spends way more time with his computer than his own children, he gets defensive, puts up a huge wall, and just shuts down, won't talk at all. We don't argue, we haven't yelled at each other once in 23 years. I've tried writing him letters explaining how I feel and how his actions affect our kids, but he doesn't say or do a thing, just hides in his little shell. 

I've come to the conclusion that he needs nothing more in life than a dark room, a computer, and a high speed internet connection. 

I just don't know how to open up a conversation with him about this, because every time I've tried he just completely shuts down. I can't just pick up and move out, I have kids and a bunch of pets to think about and I won't displace them to leave my DH alone in a big house. One of my daughters has a sleep disorder that requires her to go to an alternative school, even though she's a straight-A honor student (not that he knows anything about her medical condition or her grades at school). I want my husband to leave, but I don't know what to say or how to tell him without him just closing up again and again and again. 

And to be perfectly honest with myself, I don't think I WANT to try to salvage anything at this point. After seeing how little his own children matter to him, and how he has treated his elderly parents, I have no desire to live with a man who has no heart or emotions whatsoever.


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## Powerbane

Avalon - that person you described as your husband was me 18 months ago. Married 18yrs, 2 kids, one income (me) and 1 stay at home mom working 3 hrs a day.

I woke up from depression and addiction to online games(Warcraft) when my wife after a big blow-out came to me the next day and told me she was taking the kids after school year was up and going to her parents. She stated it calmly and confidently. She was done and not coming back. 

I don't know why it took me so long but I decided to change that day. 

Still on a long road to recovery but it's been a very good ride so far and continues to look up. 

It could definitely be depression.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Avalon

Powerbane - I've tried for NINE YEARS to wake my husband up and get him to realize that he's missing out on his life. I've tried talking to him about it. He just doesn't care, and if he isn't willing to help himself (obviously) then nobody else is going to make it happen for him either. 

I would love nothing more than to leave DH and move closer to where my family lives, knowing that I would have a great support system to go through a divorce and stand on my own two feet, but I have to stay where I am now if my daughter is going to graduate from high school. That's two more years of conversations as deep as "please pass the salt" (yep, that's about our level of communication these days). I need to stay if it means my daughter can be successful in school and graduate. I hate being boxed into a corner


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## Avalon

I've been away from my DH for a week now, staying at a family member's house while they are away on a vacation. I'll be here for another week before heading back home. 

I can't believe how stress-free and happy I've been this past week, away from the fake and empty life I lead every day at home with my husband. I think being away for a little while has been a really good break for me mentally and emotionally, to see how good I feel without him. I'm sitting here worrying about if our pets and garden are being taken care of while I'm gone, but I don't miss my husband one teeny bit. That sounds harsh, but it's definitely a reality check for me. 

Oh, dear, I think I just answered my own question about not being sure if I want to go out on my own or not.


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## mayatatia

WOW! Almost sounds like my husband of 24 years. I have 3 great kids, one just graduated from college and other two in college. Your story is very similar in that my husband is out of the house from 8am-11pm everyday of the week. He also never wanted to be around me or the family. The difference is that my husband wants to go out and have fun with friends (doesn't keep friends long and changes often) or work. All I know is that I left him once and didn't feel lonely at all. I allowed him back because he seemed to have changed, but he eventually went back to the same. THERE IS NOTHING IN THE WORLD MORE LONELIER THAN LIVING WITH SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T WANT TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOU! I can't say that loud enough. It's rejection on a daily basis. I have made my decision leave husband. Right now I am in the process of discussing this with the kids, because no matter how old they are, it's difficult. They are at peace with it and totally understand how I feel (they feel the same). It sounds like you have done a great job raising your children and running the household. Whatever your decision is, do it for yourself and your happiness.


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## Avalon

maya - Yep... you definitely know what it feels like to live with someone who has the ability to live under the same roof as you and be a complete stranger. Though in my case my husband has virtually no social life at all- a few acquaintances from work, but literally not one friend in the world. 

He works from home sometimes, at the office other times. I used to think it was great that he worked at home, now I hate those days when he's home. I feel horrible for feeling that way, but it's the honest truth. When he's at work, I cringe in the afternoon when I hear the garage door opening when he gets home. I think of any reason to be out of the house when he's home, because I simply cannot stand the huge empty space between us. When I look at him, I see an empty, numb, vacant nothing. 

It kills me to see my kids doing the same thing I do. They will do just about anything to avoid being around him. It's absolutely pathetic that they feel that way about their own father. But they learned from the best... for nine years he has repeatedly shown them that he doesn't have time or attention to give to them. Then when they spend days not saying a single word to him, he wonders what's wrong!!! Gah!!!!!!! He does not understand that he himself is the one who taught them to treat him that way. 

I've been honest and up front with my kids through all of this. I let them know how I feel, ask them how they feel and what their thoughts are, and we have very open and good conversations. Sure wish I could do that with DH! 

I just hate that it's financial constraints that are holding me at the moment. I can't go to work full time until my daughter with the sleep disorder graduates from high school. Not that DH has a clue about any of that. He has no opinion on the matter, just like everything else in his life. 

Oh, it feels so good to get this all out in writing!!!


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## nnoodle

As I write this, my husband is in the next room doing what he does best. Watching tv. 

We have been together 17 yrs. Married 13. We have 3 wonderful girls. In all outward appearances, our life is pretty good. The girls do well in school, have lots of friends etc et al. Our family has a circle of friends we spend time with boating, hanging out and vacationing with. Again, all looks well. 

Our marriage? Dead as a doornail. My husband seems to care less. I have been sleeping on the couch for over a year (my kids have accepted the 'daddy snores so much I can't sleep' excuse or at least they want to). We haven't had sex in over 8 months. He hasn't even attempted. And honestly, it doesn't even bother me anymore except when he jokes with his friends about the lack...

I would think most men would question this state of marriage. Not mine. Like anything that hints of emotion/discomfort, he ignores it, shuts down, closes people out. Including me. 

The first 7 yrs of our marriage, he traveled A LOT so I always blamed his detachment on exhaustion. I always thought he needed weekends to decompress and that is why he always checked out on the tv, failed to help in any way around the house and never had the desire to spend time with me. The kids he spent some time albiet mostly with our middle daughter who is the "easy" one. The oldest and youngest get little of his time and lots of his annoyance. For the most part, I feel like he likes just one of the four of us. 

Three years ago, I said thats it. Time to be home or risk our marriage. So he switched jobs and now works out of the home and travels to the office just occassionally. All that did was show me it wasn't the job. It was him. All that time, it was him. 

Two months ago, I firmly confronted him with my concerns over our marriage. It wasn't a fight, just an affirmation of my feelings. Truth be told we don't fight. He listens. He walks away. As a result, I rarely try to express myself anymore. Tired of my feelings being dismissed. 

This last time, he asked me what he was supposed to do, that he knows we are in trouble. I told him I really don't know. I have begged, suggested, compromised etc for the past 13 years. I don't feel like I can guide him anymore. At some point he has to grow up and start caring for someone else other than just himself. I think we need couseling. He won't do it. He just withdraws even more. I didn't know that was possible. 

It seems like our whole marriage is and has been a sham. He likes the trappings of a home, wife and children but has never participated in the actual process. I know he has emotional detachment issues but I am so done being in a dead marriage. I am so tired of not feeling loved. I am done feeling like I do not matter. I am done keeping up the pretense of a happy marriage in front of friends. I am done carrying on like everything is okay when I am dying inside.


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## SJMan1974

I don't think that is is ever "far too long" to not consider MC or even counseling to become a better parent. Sometimes people just need a little nudge to realize that they can be a better, more happy and fun person. It really isn't hard. I was having difficulties in raising my kids with my wife and decided to take some parenting counseling. It worked wonders. Maybe it is time for your husband to "Man Up"


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## Avalon

Nnoodle - I can't believe how similar our stories are, other than that as a couple, my husband and I have virtually NO friends that we do things with together. I myself have a lot of friends and I do things with them often, thank goodness. 

You said it... at some point my husband has to grow up and start caring about other people that *should* be important in his life, like his own children. "Emotional detachment issues"... yeah, that's pretty much my husband in a nutshell too.

I had a great chat with my kids yesterday, asking them what they would think if I start to rock the boat a bit. They definitely would rather not live with their father, but we have a bunch of summer things planned in the next few weeks (nothing that involves the husband, since he would opt to not participate anyway), and after that I'm going to tell my husband we need to talk. I'm not going to be acusing or hurtful, just flat out tell him how I feel, and that I know he's not capable of talking about anything emotional or uncomfortable for him. But I will tell him that he's an adult, he's a father of two amazing kids, and he needs to act like an adult and decide whether he's willing to step outside of his comfort zone to try to work something out or not. If he's not, then I'll take the next step in telling him that there's nothing left at that point. 

I just can't live with the apathy anymore, spending 2 weeks away from him has shown me that I feel SOOO MUCH BETTER when I'm not with him.


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## anx

I think that's the best way to go about it. I'm not sure where your story ends up, but I hope it is in a far happier situation. It's not impossible your husband could be in the picture, but it might take a few years. 

Best of luck and God bless.


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## alphaomega

Wow. Very sad. I couldn't imagine not knowing about your child's day. Thier likes. Their fears. Their successes. Or even just sitting on the couch with them watching the Suite Life.

I have to tune out sometimes, my daughter seems to talk from the moment she opens her eyes to the time sleep overpowers her. Lol. But just being there listening to the non stop chatter is it's own blessing.

You seem like an awesome mom. The kind they portray on those warm and fuzzy tv shows. And the selfless sacrifice you want to make for your children is above admirable! I only wish you the very best in your future.

Btw. I was your husband, less than 9 months ago. It didn't start out that way. I had depression, and eventually started shutting down little by little each day, until I think I was only a walking zombie. I just couldn't cope. My wifes EA is actually what woke me up. As ironic as that is, it made me a better man. I got help, got meds, and now can't imagine a day not spending playtime with the kids. That change truly has to come from within. No amount of you explaining it to him is going to make a smudge of difference.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Avalon

Thanks alphaomega - like you said, I cannot begin to imagine a world where my kids wouldn't be the most important thing in my life. In not only their mom, but also "mom" to 5 of their friends. Next month I'm taking 7 teenagers camping, and I'm actually looking forward to spending time with them all  My kids are very self-assured, don't bend to peer pressure, are excellent students, make generally good decisions (considering they're teenagers!), have a great sense of humor, etc. Basically, I have two teens who give me no grief, and that in an of itself is incredible in this day and age. Yet my husband is totally oblivious of it. We are so very blessed with these kids, but they are invisible to him. 

Report cards came in the mail this week, and he's was all gushing over how good their grades are. Like he had one single thing to do with it. He wasn't the parent up at 2 a.m. teaching geometry to one of the kids because she has a sleep disorder and 2 a.m. is when HER brain is awake and alert to be able to understand it. Actually, he didn't even know what classes they were in until he saw the report cards. It wasn't until I had major knee surgery and couldn't drive that he finally figured out where his own kids went to school out of sheer necessity. 

How can someone literally not give a rat's arse about his own kids? I simply can't comprehend that lack of feeling... it just doesn't compute for me.


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## anx

Depression is something you can't really understand until you've been through it. Even if its not depression, your husbands isolation and bad choices are the same thing. 

He can "wake up". Many men do. He thinks he is caring. The financial support that your family lives on day to day is supported by him. Sometimes being the man isn't easy. Nor is being the mother. Don't think that you husband isn't loving or stupid. 

Feelings are different for men. The only reason you have the financials to live while helping your daughter at 2 am is because your husband provides that. It's more complicated than you think. Your husband loves you deeply and thinks he is showing that. Please give him a chance to see the truth and your feelings. He probably doesn't even know you are unhappy. The only way he would know is if you tell him. Have you told him? Men are built differently we have to be taught love. It's not something we get like women do.


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## Avalon

anx said:


> Please give him a chance to see the truth and your feelings. He probably doesn't even know you are unhappy. The only way he would know is if you tell him. Have you told him? Men are built differently we have to be taught love. It's not something we get like women do.


I've told him, I've written to him, I've told him how I feel, how the kids feel, and any single time I do that he shuts down, puts up a huge defensive wall, and turns away from me. Short of putting up a huge billboard in our front yard, I have no other idea how to get through to him. 

Communication in a marriage is a two-way street, yet he refuses to talk to me. The last time I tried to tell him how I felt (not saying anything bad or mean or negative, just focusing on how I felt, very carefully wording things), he said "I'm just not an emotional person." And that was the end of the conversation, done, finished, end of story. I may as well have run head-on into a concrete wall. 

As far as giving him a chance... that's all I've been doing for the past nine years. I've told him how much I appreciate his job, which allows me to only work part time. I tell him how much I appreciate things he does around the house. I tell him the kids feel invisible to him and that they wish he would spend more time with him. I talk to him rationally, being honest but not all emotional and upset myself. I'm not an emotional, gushy, crying, overwrought female, so that's not what turns him off. He is simply incapable of talking about anything that makes him the least teensy bit uncomfortable, and he shuts down. 

So yes, I've tried, I get 1 million freaking gold stars for trying... and trying... and trying, and every single time I end up at the same dead end street.


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## nnoodle

Amen Avalon! I was just going to respond the same way. I too have been writing, talking, not talking etc. 

I think after all this time I have reached my limit of playing the "how can I help you show basic affection, attention and love" game. After 17 years you either do or you don't. 

In my case what is so hard is by having really good couple friends who live just up the street is I see pretty much every day how caring and involved other husbands are. I also see mine put on such a show for them and see it turn off like a switch when they are not around. To me, that reveals A LOT! 

I do think he tries a bit harder with the girls in our situation compared to yours. He just does it so passively and what involvement he does have is primarily with our middle daughter. That in and of itself has created hurt feelings and resentment between the girls. 

My big concern is this example is setting up all three girls to become involved with men who are emotionally distant and they feel they have to constantly work to "earn" their love and support. Not a good or fofilling way to live. Not what I want for them let alone myself.


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## Syrum

Avalon, you can't live your life any longer like that. I think you would be wise to move on and know you have exhausted your self trying to do everything you can.

Good luck.


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## nnoodle

And when I say uninvolved in our life let me cite a few examples:

1. buying our first home. He was too busy with work to even house hunt with me. We signed closing documents on our home and he had NEVER seen it. 

2. Baby 3, when I was in labor, he didn't want to miss a work meeting so I drove MYSELF to the hospital. It was an hour drive and I had the other 2 kids with me. 

3. When we brought baby #3 home, he invited an out of town guest to stay overnight that very day. The men napped while I made food and took care of the kids less than 24 hrs after giving birth. 

4. When we had family issues (on my side which he witnessed) and my mom wanted to talk with him about what he experienced in the situation, he refused. Said he didn't want to get involved....nice. 

5. almost missed our eldest daughters graduation ceremoney because he didn't want to miss a meeting 2 hrs away. Thankfully our friends visiting from out of town went to get our daughter flowers, because of course, my husband never thought of it. (despite my note reminding him) In fact, the whole graduation weekend was a debacle of how can I (the husband) not be of any help at all when we have out of town guests, a party and all the set up/prep to do. I ended up calling neighbors and friends to help because I couldn't do it all and he was too busy. 

6. The house. My husband does nothing around the house, including maitenence. I do it. When something breaks down I cannot fix, I hire people or ask for help. Somehow this has led to a busybody neighbor passing around the idea I have affairs with handymen. My husband has never once confronted this idiot. I have. My husband literally said "if it doesn't bother me, why should it bother you?" Hello? Defend your wife! 

None of this even touches the many times his family was downright nasty to me. He never defended me, just stopped talking to them. Its now been 13 yrs and they still blame me for his distance. Little do they know, its totally his choice. But I guess for him its easier to have the blame rest on me. Like pretty much everything else. 

His favorite sayings are "You'll get nothing and like it" and "It doesn't bother me so what is the problem". He lives what he says. How do I counter that? 

So yes, I have more issues than just emotional distance. I have years of neglect, passivity, carelessness and isolation. I try to put these feelings in a compartment and focus on my girls but lately it is getting really, really difficult. 

The kicker is ,like you Avalon, I am not a super needy/emotional woman. I can't afford to be.


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## anx

Sorry, I should have reread your story more before making a post. 

It sounds like you've been a great mother a far bette wife that he has been a husband.

I think the best chance you can give him is moving out or seriously threatening to.


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## Avalon

nnoodle said:


> I also see mine put on such a show for them and see it turn off like a switch when they are not around. To me, that reveals A LOT!
> 
> My big concern is this example is setting up all three girls to become involved with men who are emotionally distant and they feel they have to constantly work to "earn" their love and support. Not a good or fofilling way to live. Not what I want for them let alone myself.


Yep, you nailed it! My friends and the neighbors say "He's not that bad!" But they don't see him immediately race back to his computer the minute the front door is closed. They don't see how, when on the days he works from home, he cannot even bother to say "Bye, have a good day" to his own children when they leave for school. Heck, he doesn't even know when they've gone. 

This is fun... feels good to get it out, Let's see:
1. when the kids were little he'd go to be early on Christmas Even, never lifting a finger to help out on what should be a magical time for little kids.

2. He has never once in his life thought of or chosen or bought a birthday present for his kids.

3. In the last 5 years he has had not one single form of contact with any of the kids' teachers. They go to a super-small school, only 5 teachers, so everyone knows everyone very well. Doesn't know their names, until last year didn't even know WHERE they went to school, and didn't care.

4. Kids can't ask friends over when he's home because he goes to bed early and they're too loud. For crying out loud, they're teenagers! And my kids' friends are all very respectful, kind, responsible kids too. But nope, don't have friends over if he's home.

5. We went on a trip to Europe this spring, the trip of a lifetime for my kids! Unfortunately, husband went too, even after I told him that he probably wouldn't enjoy himself and to honestly think about it before committing to it (that was the last time I TRIED to talk to him honestly and he shut me down again). He spent 12 days absolutely freaked-out miserable on our trip, and since we got back he has not said one thing about it. With something like that, I should be able to "re-live" the trip with my spouse, talk about how fun it was, look at photos together and laugh, etc. Nope... he just doesn't talk about it, like it never happened.

6. I already mentioned withholding medical care when my daughter broke her wrist and I was out of town, letting her sit at home with a fractured bone for 2 days before I could get home to deal with it.

7. Daughter has a sleep disorder that she was born with, and it impacts literally every day of her life, as well as the rest of the family, and a major impact on school. Husband doesn't even know the name of the disorder, much less anything about it or managing it. Doesn't know what medications she's tried and failed, has absolutely no regard for her daily schedule (which isn't normal, obviously) or how that impacts her social life or her schooling. Many kids who have this disorder never graduate from high school, but my daughter gets almost straight A's, thanks to some fantastic teachers and my willingness to work around her crazy schedule.

The list goes on... and by now probably nobody is reading it anymore, but it just feels good to get it all out in the open. I've talked with my girls, and they agree that once we get through the next few hectic (but fun) weeks this summer, we're going to sit him down and tell him one last time how we all feel. If he doesn't respond or isn't willing to try to open up and talk to us, then we're done.

Nnoodle - I think we should both take off on a week-long cruise together, be spoiled rotten, have little fruity drinks with umbrellas in them, and get back to living our lives! Oh, a girl can dream, right?


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## Avalon

And seriously.... you drove yourself to the hospital with 2 other kids in the car while you were in labor? Excuse me?!?!?!? IMO, that is complete and utter negligence on your husband's part. That is just ridiculous!


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## nnoodle

Avalon:

ditto on #1, 2, 3. 

4. kinda. He is nice to the kids when they are over (does the goodfy dad act) but never helps. He usually disappears around 9ish to go watch tv. The girls actually like having their friends over because then he has to keep up appearances. 

I do think our friends are starting to see through some of the act, especially the guys. They have noted how rarely yard work gets done, that I do plumbing repairs, kitchen redos, staining and painting alone etc. When we talk about home projects, I am the one with hints and advice. Plus the tool knowledge. 

5. rarely vacation so not as much a big deal. I was a gs leader for years so many, many weekends I had the girls away camping/hiking/traveling. He spent the weekends home alone doing nothing. 

6. My daughter got into a bad car accident. He stayed home and I drove to the scene by myself. 

7. My eldest daughter's graduation was a big deal. She has learning disablities (which of course he never had to deal with) that made school a huge challenge. To say I was proud of her acomplishments is an understatement. He really didn't seem to know or care what a big deal it was for her or how hard she worked for it. 

8. Did I mention he didn't teach her how to drive? He said he just didn't have the patience for her. So of course. That too fell on me....


As to going away: sounds dreamy. The big problem? Who would take care of the kids and dog were I to go? HIM? lol.....yeah right. Ahhh. nothing better than a mate to rely on...

My favorite: one of my friends told me I was too capable. Her suggestion was to start acting more helpless and maybe he would step up.


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## nnoodle

As for the labor issue: It was one of those things where in the moment you do what you have to do at the time. Looking back, it was nuts. Again, same girlfriend said that I seemed to do pregnancy and labor so easily he probably had no comprehension what a stupid move it was on his part. 

Again, that feeds back into his utter lack of awareness of other people, their needs or feelings.


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## AmIwrong

7. Daughter has a sleep disorder that she was born with, and it impacts literally every day of her life, as well as the rest of the family, and a major impact on school. Husband doesn't even know the name of the disorder, much less anything about it or managing it. Doesn't know what medications she's tried and failed, has absolutely no regard for her daily schedule (which isn't normal, obviously) or how that impacts her social life or her schooling. Many kids who have this disorder never graduate from high school, but my daughter gets almost straight A's, thanks to some fantastic teachers and my willingness to work around her crazy schedule.

Avalon,

if you don't mind me asking what type of sleeping disorder does your daughter have? I feel that you are writing my life without us knowing each other....


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## Avalon

AmIwrong said:


> if you don't mind me asking what type of sleeping disorder does your daughter have? I feel that you are writing my life without us knowing each other....


She has DSPS (delayed sleep phase syndrome) which I think is slowly turning into N-24 (non-24 hours per day). Basically, her brain has no clue when it's night or day. Any cues that would tell a normal person that it's time to wake up or it's time to get sleepy don't work for her. She normally cannot fall asleep until 4 to 6 a.m., even if she does everything right. She's had sleep studies at a major hospital. She has tried and failed 5 different sleep medications, including doses that could knock a 300-pound man flat on his butt... it has literally NO effect on the part of her brain that tells her to be sleepy. Obviously, she cannot go to a normal school if she's not falling asleep until 6 a.m. 

N-24 is when a person's body doesn't work on a 24-hour clock, usually 25 or 26 hours per day, so each day they are able to fall asleep at a longer interval than 24 hours, eventually lapping their way around the clock. 

She goes to a very small public school that works on an alternative schedule, and even then the teachers are excellent about working around where she is in her sleep cycle at any given time. Thus... my inability to work full time, or to work outside the home, if my daughter has any hope whatsoever of graduating from high school. I basically home school her about 75% of her classes, in conjunction with her teachers' help. And this happens daily at any given time on the clock when her brain is awake and receptive to learning and understanding and doing the work.

Getting back to the marriage thing... I don't think my husband even knows the name of her sleep disorder, much less the medications she has tried, how many doctor visits she has had, kept track of her daily sleep log, or God forbid try to understand or work around her absolutely crazy sleep/wake schedule so that she can successfully finish high school.


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## Halien

Avalon,

I've read your post with interest, but it sounds like you are charting the best course possible, so I didn't know what to add.

Do you think that his going to Europe was in some way his attempt to grab a rope to the ship before it passed him by? I can't help but think that he'll be a future poster here, wondering how he lost his wife.

My own wife and I have struggled to connect in the last few years, but I can't imagine not being close to the things that are going on in the lives of my children. I'm the one they go to when they just need to vent. My daughter just needs to talk, and I can't keep up with so many of the feelings that she expresses, but I just sit in wonder, amazed that I get a chance to be a part of this phase in her life. My son, however, is a tougher egg to crack. With me, he wants to appear manly, so he'll usually start talking after he forgets the aura he is trying to project.

What your kids missed by not having two parents involved is simply tragic. You've done an awesome job, but I just understand that your frustration and pain are complex.

I'm hoping that you'll find personal happiness one day. In the end, your kids will want to see this for you when their own lives move on to independence.


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## Avalon

Halien - thanks  I see what you mean about our trip to Europe. It was in no way a "test" to see what he would do. It was my wanting to experience something with my kids that they have always wanted to do, before they get through high school and move on with their lives. 

I wish H had had a good time, I wish he had been able to relax and enjoy himself, because it was truly a trip of a lifetime for my kids and I. I wish that I could "relive" the experiences we had together by looking at photos and sitting down and talking about the things we did and saw. But when we got home, it was immediately back to the computer and hiding inside his shell  

I'm past the anger and resentment and disappointment. I truly don't want to see him be alone and isolated for the rest of his life, but at this point it's his choice and I can't live the rest of my life that way. The thought of spending the next 30 or 40 years watching him sit on his butt hiding from the world and his own family absolutely terrifies me and makes me feel smothered. 

Here's how far this has gone... I had a great talk with my daughter the other day while we were out on a little hike together. We were talking about some over-the-top wedding we saw on a TV show, and she said she would want to do something much less informal, like barefoot on a beach. I said "That's great, I'll be there!" Then she got very serious and point blank told me that if/when she gets married, she does not want her own father to be at her wedding. That hit me like a concrete block to the head. Granted, she's a 16 year old, hormonal teenager, but that just shows the depth of apathy that H has shown to his own children over the years.

I hope that my husband can find happiness some day. I pray that he doesn't spend the rest of his life alone, because nobody deserves that. But he has to CHOOSE happiness and a fulfilling life for himself. Through these past years, I've chosen to get up every single day and do something worthwhile with my life. I've chosen to be the best parent that I possibly can to my kids. I've chosen to live my life and do the things that I love to do, like going hiking or gardening, or spending time with friends and family, or teaching one of my kids' friends how to bake because she asked me to, or going on school field trips with my kids. Living a fulfilling life is a choice. I'm not talking about money or a great job, I'm talking about interacting with people and being important in other people's lives.

OK... obviously I've had a bit toooooo much caffeine this morning LOL! Gonna go play with my sister's doggies for a while and breathe in some fresh air


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## Dedicated2Her

Avalon---10 months ago. I was your husband. If you review my post history, you will see some pretty impactful stuff. Men can change. Quickly I might add.

Reading your posts are VERY hard for me. It reminds me of what my wife has felt.


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## Avalon

Dedicated2 - thank you for your honesty and input. I'll definitely read your posts to try to see things from a different perspective  I'm sorry that my posts are hard for you, but at least you're here talking and telling people how you feel, that is HUGE and gives me some hope.


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## Halien

Avalon said:


> Here's how far this has gone... I had a great talk with my daughter the other day while we were out on a little hike together. We were talking about some over-the-top wedding we saw on a TV show, and she said she would want to do something much less informal, like barefoot on a beach. I said "That's great, I'll be there!" Then she got very serious and point blank told me that if/when she gets married, she does not want her own father to be at her wedding. That hit me like a concrete block to the head. Granted, she's a 16 year old, hormonal teenager, but that just shows the depth of apathy that H has shown to his own children over the years.


Believe me, I understand and don't want to imply that you are somehow intentionally excluding him. I come at it from the viepoint of a guy with a wife who is very involved with the children, like you, but she cannot seem to alter her approach to parenting as they age. While she does it out of love, she stresses so much about everything and treats them like four year olds. They get to the point where they hide in their rooms, avoiding her, or say very hurtful things. She saw this through therapy, and has begun to work on it. In both cases, yours and mine, the real tradjedy is that our spouses will wake up one day and realize what they really missed. By then, you can't help him any more, because its gone. Its just terribly sad.


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## Dedicated2Her

Avalon, when the reality hits him, and it will. (of course, who knows when) He will go through months of guilt, regret, and just downright freaking out. It's a tough deal. I was depressed for some time and my way of coping was to "check out" at home. Problem is, my wife got real angry when I changed so much and became different. We are starting to recover. Feelings are so hard to figure out sometimes.


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## Dedicated2Her

Avalon, I was very much a close to carbon copy of your husband 10 months ago. In our last joint session, the therapist looked at my wife and asked her what another woman would think about me if she was in her shoes. Her response: "She would love him. He is so giving. He works hard both at work and at home. He is understanding. He is a great father." 

NEVER, in a million years, would I have expected her to say this. She has lost her "love" for me, but I am willing to wait for her.


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## SuzyQ64

I guess you can re-title your post "A Pathetic Husband for too long...I hear you sister!


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## Mom6547

Avalon said:


> Powerbane - I've tried for NINE YEARS to wake my husband up and get him to realize that he's missing out on his life. I've tried talking to him about it. He just doesn't care, and if he isn't willing to help himself (obviously) then nobody else is going to make it happen for him either.
> 
> I would love nothing more than to leave DH and move closer to where my family lives, knowing that I would have a great support system to go through a divorce and stand on my own two feet, but I have to stay where I am now if my daughter is going to graduate from high school. That's two more years of conversations as deep as "please pass the salt" (yep, that's about our level of communication these days). I need to stay if it means my daughter can be successful in school and graduate. I hate being boxed into a corner


The one thing you have not done to motivate him is let him know you are ready to leave over this. Have you considered simply saying it is not possible for me to leave for the sake of the kids right now. I would like you to leave please. Here is your bag.


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## nnoodle

"let him know you are ready to leave over this". 

What if you have and it seems to garner absolutely no response? Or a temporary response that makes it seem as if you were taken seriously but then drifts back....

That is the pattern we have here. 

When he does try it is great: he becomes the person I love being with: funny, loving and involved. I wish I could see that person more often than once every few years for a month or so at a time. 

Its like rain in a desert.

And Dedicated2her: I know the anger part is confusing to you. Its because the change indicates the ability to be involved was always there, the husband just chose to "check out" despite the pain articulated by the wife. That is were the anger comes from in my experience. 

That being said, keep at it. I am glad to see someone taking their marriage seriously and giving the effort. It heartens me. Good luck and keep trying.


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## Dedicated2Her

> And Dedicated2her: I know the anger part is confusing to you. Its because the change indicates the ability to be involved was always there, the husband just chose to "check out" despite the pain articulated by the wife. That is were the anger comes from in my experience.
> 
> That being said, keep at it. I am glad to see someone taking their marriage seriously and giving the effort. It heartens me. Good luck and keep trying.


Well, the anger is definitely now gone. Now, it is really indifference to me. But, whatever. I actually would counteract the phrase "chose to check out". I have always wanted to please her, but it seemed as though my actions or ways were never good enough. She constantly ragged me. Told me what I should do or how I should do it. Compared me to other men. She made me feel like I just wasn't good enough. So, I stopped trying about 9 years ago and did what I was good at----work and get on computer and have my ego stroked by strangers. I didn't understand that it was a developmental problem in me. Now, if she rags me, I just tell her that I will try my best and forget the rest. I can't be superman. That is a very hard realization to come to as a "pleaser". You ALWAYS want to please. Now, the only person I aim to please is God. If I can honor HIM, then I'm happy as can be. Of course, now we are realizing she has a TON of baggage which has been quite enlightening. lol


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## doglover

I'm not sure I am in the right forum, but looking at posts, I have no doubt some of you can provide some support/encouragement/advice. My husband of almost 35 yrs. is like so many of the others I read about in your posts. Lives for work, and when not working, on his computer or in front of TV. Refuses to communicate with me and I have given up trying to talk to him about the lack of communication. He was a practicing alcoholic for 30 of our married yrs. - I had hoped his commitment to AA and a desire to live life in a new way would change things. Well, the workalcoholic is losing his job in Sept. He has known about the elimination of his executive position for 5 months and has done nothing to look for another job. He is going to have an uphill battle at his age and I assumed that the minute he got the news he would do whatever it took to get his resume out there. I thought by now he would have a new position lined up. He suffers from depression but is on meds. We used to communicate, but over the last 10 yrs it is as though I live with a stranger. He has known about my deep concerns about our relationship for a long time - it didn't start with the job issue. That has only made it worse. I have let him know we are a team, that I can be supportive if he lets me know whats going on, and that we will land on our feet. I dare not ask about the job search because he dismisses me and acts as though I am nagging him (asking "so, how is the job search going? is nagging). I am tired of carrying him emotionally - through the alcoholism while raising 3 children, working full-time and he ignoring that he had a family. I have stuck with it. I believed that we were married for a reason and that we could work through our issues. I don't want to throw away the rest of my years on someone who is self-absorbed and seemingly incapable of having a relationship. Have any of you faced the issue of a job loss and a spouse not looking for work? Remember - we are not children - we are in our late 50's. It is a very different ballgame at this stage of life. Thanks for reading and any thoughts you all have.


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## Avalon

doglover - it would probably be best to start your own thread on this forum, so that more people will see it. Copy what you've written here, and at the main page for the "considering divorce" page, click on the blue button that says "New Thread" and just paste it in there, giving it your own title. That way it will show up as it's own new thread


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## lovegreen

Yes... my lifes story is very similar with most of the ladies posting here.....COMMUNICATION is a must for the survival of a marriage and/or relationship. Our major crisis in marriage hit as I was starting menapause(major crisis was not because of menapause..but sex related)that is a long story...and actually a bit embarrassing>
I hit a major depression start sleeping on couch.. when ever I was home, I was on couch sleeping...few years later he said I just figured you were sleeping on couch to avoid me...really? He cared so much he never ask...why are you sleeping all hours of the day, are you sick??? No he couldn't ask because he chose not to talk me. He has always been quiet...but after 22 yrs of marriage ...we can go for days w/o saying 1 word to each other....hmmm ..its sad...Askhim to go to MC...ohhh no way...he would have to communicate..6 yrs later same crap...different day...My baby is a Senior this year....we have had discussions that her dad and my marriage isn't a normal marriage....She has an idea about whats to come...so...with that said....
I think I am going to leave for a couple months and figure things out...See if I am a happier person. Our daughter will be okay with my decision...I hope. Its going to be sooner than she expects/thinks...
It is a scary thing...to do...finances aren't good...with the economy..but I need to do it.....she will be fine with her dad. just random thoughts popping in my head...Both myself and dh are unhappy...why prolong the unhappiness...


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## lovegreen

mayatatia said:


> THERE IS NOTHING IN THE WORLD MORE LONELIER THAN LIVING WITH SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T WANT TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOU! I can't say that loud enough. It's rejection on a daily basis. I have made my decision leave husband. Right now I am in the process of discussing this with the kids, because no matter how old they are, it's difficult..


I agree with your statement 10000%...I believe these past couple of days ...I have decided its that time....I can be lonely all by myself...don't need to live with my husband and be lonely and unhappy...Pray my baby girl will be alright w/ my decision.

:iagree:


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## Avalon

lovegreen - Even though you can't communicate with your husband (do I EVER know how that feels!!!!) be sure to always always keep the line of communication open between you and your kids. If you have an open, honest, trusting relationship with your children, they'll understand why you need to leave.

Sleeping on the couch... oh my! I did that for almost 10 years! My husband snores horribly, and to his credit he did try different things to fix it and even had surgery on his throat, but nothing worked. For 10 years I spent at least 50% of nights on the couch. He can't control his snoring, I know that. I know that it's not something that he does intentionally and I've told him that. BUT.... In all those 10 years, he never ONCE offered to sleep on the couch or somewhere else so that I could have a good night's rest in my own bed. Not once in 10 years did he care about how I was sleeping. When I finally told him it's my turn to have the bed, he'll have to figure out other sleeping arrangements (at this point I thought 10 years of sacrifice was long enough), he handled it like an immature 2 year old who was told he couldn't have a piece of candy. 

We've since moved and I have my own bedroom, and I swear I'm still making up for lost sleep time


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## PushedOut

Hello Ladies,
I am one of your listless, vegetables that seem to have given up on their family and is in a darkened corner of the house on the Internet.
My wife always said "you never participate".
Let me tell you my story, I met a young, outspoken woman 23 years ago. I fell in love with her "I can do anything" outlook on life. We argued sometimes about little things, lid off the toothpaste stuff, but we would make up, make love and move on. (so I thought)
We married and three years later started having kids, three girls. She instantly became a mom, she quit her job and she dove into taking care of the girls. It was awesome to see, she was determined to be the best mom. Now I was working allot and we hardly had sex (she was too tired), and on the rare occasions she asked for help, she would dictate every detail of how, what, when and where. If I tried to express an opinion she would get defensive and argue, seemingly to he death if necessary. I grew alarmed as she started controlling everything, and any time I tried to get involved as a father or husband and it deviated from her plan or schedule she would argue.
I thought that as the girls got bigger our marriage would come back into the picture. But she became increasingly more controlling and less tolerant of my input. Oh I could "participate", but she made the schedule, she decided on everything. If I tried to have an opinion she would simply say "do if your self then".
At the same time she complained that I was not helping, not participating.
All I could do is bring in a paycheck, and be her servant, or not. My sex life was in the bathroom alone, except for my birthday, our anniversary and when she felt like it, usually once a month on a good month.
So guess what, I grew to resent her schedule, I stooped "participating" and now we are separated, and of course she blames me, " you were welcome to participate" she would say or "you never helped out" she would screech, "You did it to your self" she would howl.
After years of therapy I came to realize that her paradigm was to become a "single mom" the day the kids were born.
She grew up in a house where her mom called all the shots and her dad went along with it, so that is what she models now, yet she expects the dad/husband to behave like a new age spouse, only without any benefit of being "really involved". I tried to keep involved with my girls lives, but I had to work around the endless agenda
So you can blame him for not being involved and depressed. Well he is ladies.


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## Dedicated2Her

PushedOut---you know what is really sad? Is that your wife, deep down, wants you to fight for her. To save her from this. However, as men, we succumb to always getting berated. It really is unfortunate. However, crazy thing is, you can win her back. My wife is very similar to yours in that she wanted me to "participate" but on her terms. That beat me down over time. Now, I take over. It has taken almost a year of me just doing it and listening to her BS. Now, though, she is actually starting to ask my opinion on things. I think respect is starting to come that has never been there. It takes time for a woman to really let go and rely on you to help especially if they are a SAHM and are very independent. You have to prove yourself. Unfortunately, that requires you swallowing a ton of pride until she respects you as a coparent.

Just a disclaimer: We have not had sex in 10 months and I am FINE with it. I will not until I can see her truly love me. It's coming.

Oh yeah, and my kids. They now cannot get enough of me. Balance of power has shifted. It is amazing what selfless servanthood will eventually do to change the dynamics of a family.


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## PushedOut

Dedicated2Her - Very inspiring post, I think it would work for most wives. But I tried that years ago, the fighting grew to borderline violence. She believes that there is only one way, one decider and that is it. My oldest was having trouble in school. She is a morning person like me, my wife is a night owl. I suggested our daughter do her homework right after school when she was fresh and full of energy, she has trouble focusing in the evening. Wife wanted her to "wind down" and do it later. I asserted myself demanding to at least try it, she was willing to get a divorce if necessary to stop me from having our daughter do her home work after school! What can you do with that? She was berated as a child and now sees any compromise as a defeat. I might try it again, but she never gives in and I don't want her to get a restraining order. I'm just a silent roommate at this point.


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## Dedicated2Her

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Dedicated2Her - Very inspiring post, I think it would work for most wives. But I tried that years ago, the fighting grew to borderline violence. She believes that there is only one way, one decider and that is it. My oldest was having trouble in school. She is a morning person like me, my wife is a night owl. I suggested our daughter do her homework right after school when she was fresh and full of energy, she has trouble focusing in the evening. Wife wanted her to "wind down" and do it later. I asserted myself demanding to at least try it, she was willing to get a divorce if necessary to stop me from having our daughter do her home work after school! What can you do with that? She was berated as a child and now sees any compromise as a defeat. I might try it again, but she never gives in and I don't want her to get a restraining order. I'm just a silent roommate at this point.


Hmmm. So basically, your choices at this point are these: 1. walk away 2. Start looking for ways and implementing concentrating on developing yourself 3. Really develop your relationship with God and use every moment of time that you have around her to show her the love of Christ

I chose 2 and 3. I really don't want the mother of my children to be miserable. I want her to experience the freedom that I have found in my identity in Christ. My feelings or emotions are subservient to biblical action which makes me happy even when I'm doing something totally selfless. It may be worth it, it may not. At the end of the day, you want to live a life without regret. At least that is my goal.


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## Avalon

PushedOut said:


> If I tried to express an opinion she would get defensive and argue, seemingly to he death if necessary. I grew alarmed as she started controlling everything, and any time I tried to get involved as a father or husband and it deviated from her plan or schedule she would argue.
> I thought that as the girls got bigger our marriage would come back into the picture. But she became increasingly more controlling and less tolerant of my input. Oh I could "participate", but she made the schedule, she decided on everything. If I tried to have an opinion she would simply say "do if your self then".
> At the same time she complained that I was not helping, not participating.


In this case I can see how you would withdraw, I would do the same thing too. As I've said before, it takes only so many times of beating your head against a brick wall to realize that it hurts and that the brick wall isn't going to budge.

In my case, we USED to do things as a family all the time, my husband USED to be a great father and enjoy spending time with his kids. I've been working part time from home for 9+ years now, so I'm also contributing financially to the family.

Here's where our downward cycle started: As my husband got deeper and deeper into his Internet addiction, he became more and more withdrawn from family participation. He stopped going to kids sporting events, he stopped helping out with things like birthday parties and school work and other family events. He stopped caring or participating in school events, all because he would rather be with his computer than with his family. In turn, because he stopped doing "parenting things" that he had been doing, I picked up more and more responsibility for our children on a daily basis. The more I did (somebody has to!!!), the more it gave him a reason to participate less and less, and the more and more decisions and responsibility I ended up having on my shoulders. 

In the last 6 or 7 years, my husband has not participated in one single school or healthcare or parenting decision, not one, even though I have asked... I've asked him to help with school projects, I've asked him what he thinks would be fun to do together as a family, and he just sits in front of his computer, while I single-parent two teens in a 22-year marriage. 

He has gone as far as withholding medical care in an emergency while I was out of town. He didn't see the need to put his daughter with a fractured bone in the car and drive her to the doctor or hospital. He let her sit at home for 2 days in pain with a fractured arm until I got home to deal with it. Now THAT is severe withdrawal from parenting, IMO. 

Wow... it's interesting seeing things from two different points of view, isn't it?


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## PushedOut

Avalon - we used to do things together too and I would spend time with the kids, I was busy with work and she recently started work part time. All I ever wanted was to have a part in the decision making about parenting, activities anything. But my wife felt that since she was the person doing "everything" she should be calling the shots. Like you, she said I was addicted to the Internet, but it was an escape from the frustration and misery of my watching her raise my kids while I could only be involved as a participant rather than a coparent. She never saw it that way, as I withdrew she said that if she didn't decide everything then nothing would happen and so it spiraled down that path. After spending the last ten years in and out of marriage counseling she still insists that it's her way or I can do it myself. She still believes that she should be the decider on everything and after dealing with the arguing all the time in front of the kids (she says its me of course) I just slithered away. We are not divorced yet and she wants to stay married so she gets the health insurance and also because my income won't pay for two households, also we would probably both loose our good credit standing. She just doesn't want to deal with me butting in with my unwanted opinions, oh and my needing her attention ( dating, sex and that annoying time she gives up to spend together rather than with the kids) it's funny, all the soccer, girl scouts, 4H, rainbow, horse camp, etc pales as a lesson to your kids in comparison to showing them a happy healthy relationship between their parents. But she disagrees, hovering over the kids is her only joy and purpose. 
She readily agreed when I said I wanted to date, and now I spend little time online, I'm sleeping like a baby for the first time in years, there are women out there that actually enjoy my company, sense of humor and think intimacy is not a burden. Most of all, I am more emotionally available for my kids, but as divorce as an option becomes more of a reality I am very sad that our kids now will learn to walk away, the family, marriage all destroyed. So sad, but she insists that I just didn't participate, was addicted to Internet and was controlling. She admits she always got her way, but it's what she had to put up with she says was the problem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AudrinaG

Wow. it's amazing so many people here are having similar problems. My story:

Largely the same...detached husband who has detached more throughout the years as problems increased. We're in a pretty bad financial state and when we talk about it he either nods and looks overwhelmed or just leaves the room.

After about 3 years of doing the back and forth--getting mad and feeling abandoned to accepting this is my life so suck it up--i finally decided i'd rather be alone. i asked him to leave and stuck with it (have done it twice before and got told i was overreacting and being absurd). I told him it was not a discussion, i was done living this way and if he wanted to work on it to set up some counseling appointments and i'll be there. 

That did kick his butt into gear and we have been working with a great counselor that says we need to actively break our destructive patterns of engagement and find our connection again. The last two sessions he has asked us to stare into each other's eyes, sit close and talk from the heart about how we feel. i had a chance to tell him how his detachment makes me feel that he doesn't love me and wishes we hadn't gotten married. He finally took some responsibility and cried, hard. i have NEVER seen that side of him. It proved to me that there is something in there and maybe we can bring it out.

Downside--between appointments we still deal with the day to day challenges. He picks up the kids from summer camp and hangs out at our house and feeds them dinner until i get home from work. In this setting he snaps back into his patterns of detachment and sullenness and i get infuriated. Not to mention the dishes and kid stuff he leaves in his wake when he leaves.
i'm wondering if i continue to work on it, will we ever get somewhere for real? Will the burden ever be borne by us equally and can i ever forgive him for the stack of frustrations and resentments I'm sitting on?

Sorry this is so long but that's how i got to this advice--i think you have to separate to see how "in this" he wants to be. There is something going on with him and he's hiding from it. He is also not living his best life and you are in the position of "enabler". Maybe the kids can get their dad back if he's forced to confront how his behavior is destroying his family. 

He probably will blame you/my husband sure did at first, still does i guess. But you can't move forward in the spot you are at.


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## Avalon

Audrina - Thanks for your reply, I totally understand the years of back and forth, from "I hate this" to "It's not that bad, suck it up and deal with it", over and over like a ping pong ball. 

I just came home from 4 days camping with my girls and a bunch of their friends, and had a fantastic time with all of my "kids". 

Husband: "How was the trip?" (not looking at me, and said with complete boredom in his voice like he really doesn't care whether we had a good time or not).
Me: "Fine, weather wasn't great but we had a really good time."
Husband: "I see you put a new big scratch in the bed of the truck." (it's 15 years old and the entire bed is already scratched up!)
Me: I stare at him, turn around and walk away. 
End of conversation. 

On another note... his mother is doing very poorly, his siblings have called to talk to him about it and have sent emails. He only sees his parents once every 4 months or so, even though we easily live close enough to drive there and back in a day.

Me: "Are you going to see your parents this weekend, from your brothers it doesn't sound like she's doing well at all?"
Husband: "Nope. I'm planning on going next month."
Me: "She may not be alive next month."
Husband: mutters something we can't hear....
Daughter (mad as heck at hearing this conversation so far): "Dad, when are you going to go help take care of your parents?!?!?!"
Husband: "Eventually." 
My kids are soooo dang mad at him right now, seeing how he has completely neglected his elderly parents who really need his help now. 

OK, I'm done venting, just wanted to get the last day worth of "conversation" off my chest. I have no desire to spend the next 30 or 40 years of my life with someone who simply doesn't give a darn about anything.


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## anx

I again have to strongly suggest the book love must be tough. Currently he faces not no consequences for being like this other than you guys being mad, which he just tunes out. 

I really think if you moved out, you might see a huge change in him. Its actually your only chance. He is numb to everything else you throw at him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## D8zed

Avalon,

Sorry if you already answered this question but what does your hubby say about him possibly being clinically depressed?


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## Avalon

Hmmm... I've been doing a bunch of reading about depression and other mental health issues, as well as personality disorders. I came across Schizoid personality disorder and its criteria, and my husband meets 4, possibly 5 of the criteria listed:

Diagnostic Criteria, Schizoid Personality Disorder

A pervasive pattern of detachment from social relationships and a restricted range of expression of emotions in interpersonal settings, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by four (or more) of the following:

** neither desires nor enjoys close relationships, including being part of a family

** almost always chooses solitary activities

has little, if any, interest in having sexual experiences with another person

** takes pleasure in few, if any, activities

** lacks close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives

appears indifferent to the praise or criticism of others

** shows emotional coldness, detachment, or flattened affectivity 

This pretty much describes his personality. Some things I've read say schizoids create a huge fantasy world that they internally live in. My husband doesn't do that, unless you can count Internet addiction as his fantasy world. 

Interesting reading, has definitely given me something more to think about. He just doesn't really fit the criteria for depression nearly as well as the schizoid personality.


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## Uptown

Avalon, I agree that the behavior you describe exhibits strong traits of Schizoid PD (which apparently is being merged together with "Schizotypal Personality Disorder" when DSM5 is released in May 2013). What puzzles me, however, is that you started observing such behavior only 9 years ago, after you quit your job outside the home. This is confusing because PDs form at about age 3 or 4, when something (usually a trauma of abuse or abandonment) interferes with the child's ability to develop an integrated, strong self image. It is believed that most PD sufferers are set up for that to happen by genetics, which gives them a predisposition to having a mental disorder -- and the risk of developing a full blown PD is greatly increased by a rough childhood, as your H had when his dad committed suicide. Indeed, that suicide suggests that the genetics came from his father's side of the family.

I say all this because a PD typically starts showing itself in the mid-teens when the person is trying to start forming LTRs outside the family. Once the dysfunctional traits start showing, they tend to remain fairly stable throughout life -- although studies indicate that they tend to become a bit milder starting in the late forties. I have never heard of a PD lying hidden for a dozen years and then, during the last 9 years of a marriage, suddenly appearing. 

When PD-like behavior suddenly appears like that, it is usually attributable to a head injury or drug use -- neither of which seems to have occurred to your H. Another possibility is that your H has strong traits of what Ralph Kline calls _secret schizoids_, i.e., people who present themselves as socially available, interested, engaged, and involved in interacting in the eyes of the observer, while at the same time, he or she is apart, emotionally withdrawn, and sequestered in a safe place in his or her own internal world. It may be, then, that your H's schizoid traits were always there but, nine years ago, they switched from being covert to overt.

I therefore suggest that you confirm your suspicions by visiting a clinical psychologist for a session or two and describing your H's behavior to him. I also suggest that you consider whether any red flags were evident all through your marriage (starting after the honeymoon period) but which you may have ignored at the time.

In any event, I applaud your brave decision to read about PDs so as to learn what red flags to look for. So many people -- including a few on this forum -- are afraid to discuss PD symptoms. They mistakenly interpret the term "disorder" to imply "disease" and thus are afraid they will somehow identify the wrong disease. They don't realize that there is a world of difference between spotting symptoms (i.e., red flags) and diagnosing a disease.

This confusion likely arises because, in every field of the medical sciences, "disorder" refers to an identifiable disease. In psychology, however, a personality "disorder" is not a specific disease but, rather, simply a group of symptoms. Consequently, there is nothing dangerous about discussing symptoms. Indeed, when you go to a doctor's office, the first thing he will ask is "What are your symptoms?" And, at the hundreds of forums dedicated to medical issues, you will see thousands of lay people discussing their symptoms all day long. Incidentally, I am simply blown away by the home schooling work you're doing for your daughter whose sleep schedule is constantly changing. Take care, Avalon.


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## Avalon

Thanks Uptown... though one tiny thing is wrong, my husband's father didn't commit suicide, he's alive and healthy and well, so must have been confused with someone else on the forums. My husband was raised in an extremely traditional family, father goes to work for 10 hours a day, mother stays home to take care of the children and have dinner on the table when dad gets home from work. 



Uptown said:


> Another possibility is that your H has strong traits of what Ralph Kline calls _secret schizoids_, i.e., people who present themselves as socially available, interested, engaged, and involved in interacting in the eyes of the observer, while at the same time, he or she is apart, emotionally withdrawn, and sequestered in a safe place in his or her own internal world. It may be, then, that your H's schizoid traits were always there but, nine years ago, they switched from being covert to overt.


I read about this last night too, and it fits best. For example, if one of my friends or the kids friend's or the neighbors come over, he's all polite and talkative toward them, and the INSTANT they're out the door he's back at his computer. People have told me he's not that introverted, but it's really just a show he puts on when there is someone besides family near. 



Uptown said:


> I also suggest that you consider whether any red flags were evident all through your marriage (starting after the honeymoon period) but which you may have ignored at the time.


Yeah, I see little tiny signs starting from when we were first married, hundreds of very minor things that at the time I just chalked up to an interesting personality, nothing that ever interfered with daily life, but when you look at them over a period of 20 years and add them all up, hmmmm....



Uptown said:


> Incidentally, I am simply blown away by the home schooling work you're doing for your daughter whose sleep schedule is constantly changing.


Thanks... she's very worth it, IMO . The *single most important * job I will ever have in my life is to raise two happy, well adjusted, successful, independent kids. Just wish I wasn't having to do it feeling like a single parent.

I really appreciate your input here, it's very enlightening for me to read and start understanding and learning about how people function, has definitely given me some insight into why my husband might be the way he is. 

Avalon


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## Avalon

Here we go again... I had a minor orthopedic surgery today, am able to walk around a bit but it's slow and it's achy and I'm on pain meds. Again, my 16-year-old daughter drove me to and from surgery (an hour away) since I get the feeling things like this are an "inconvenience" for hubby.

Apparently, it was more important for my hubby to balance the checkbook tonight and read Internet news than to check up on me to see if I by chance needed an extra pillow or an ice pack or my pain meds. Other than asking a generic "how did it go?" and not really paying attention to my reply, that has been his entire involvement in my surgery today. Yeah... I should be used to this by now, but every time it still leaves a bitter taste in my mouth


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## Uptown

Avalon, I'm sorry to hear that his behavior is as bad as usual -- following your surgery, no less. Thanks so much for giving us an update.


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## robert1234

This comes from an apathetic husband of 4 years. It isn't until last week that I realised that I had emotionally 'checked out' of the relationship, and that had been quite some time ago (possibly a couple of years). Now that I have admitted that to myself, I progress to asking myself why I did that. What I've come up with so far is this:
- We have inherent problems in our relationship that have either never been talked about or resolved
- I have never been happy with my wife's (non) commitment to work for a living and was in denial about it rather than being prepared to leave. Specifically, I was the 'provider' and in current financial circumstances was unable to provide for her. She now blames me for not supporting her more in her loss making business and feels she's back at sqaure 1 at 33 years old. 
- Our sex life has been dismal for 3 years and couldn't picture myself living without adequate sex for the rest of my life, so the commitment to the relationship diminished 
- Also, there were several aspects of my wife's personality that I wasn't comfortable with and this led to a dimishment of commitment. 
- As I withdrew, I suspect she began resenting me more for not loving her in the way that she believed I should. A vicious circle ensues. 
- As none of these issues (and many more) were never addressed, our resentment grew to the point where we argued most of the time. I would rather sit on a computer and lose myself for hours than have to deal with a crappy relationship that is going nowhere but downhill, a wife who won't take responsibility for the awful work situation she's in at the moment and generally dealing with BS. Not productive, but true.


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## D8zed

robert1234 said:


> I would rather sit on a computer and lose myself for hours than have to deal with a crappy relationship that is going nowhere but downhill, a wife who won't take responsibility for the awful work situation she's in at the moment and generally dealing with BS. Not productive, but true.


Ditto.....


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## jaqs

I started reading this thread and, as pathetic as this sounds, it made me feel better. I am not alone! Similar story, similar husband. I am in the process of finding an apartment, because I cannot see staying with this man as empty-nesters. He is completely emotionally blank. 

I won't go into the sad story, suffice it to say he was involved in our children's lives as money-maker and chauffeur and little else unless absolutely necessary. As far as our relationship goes, the only conversations we have ever had that were initiated by him had to do with "safe" topics, like stuff that might be needed from the store, or whether prescription refills are needed. My wants, in his mind, are frivolous, unnecessary, complicated and I need to get over it and just do what I want to do.

Well, I can do what I want to do on my own. I can live my life according to my own values alone. I do not need a husband for that. F--- it. 

Why bother trying to come up with a way of life that takes both of our strengths and melds them into great life?


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## tangerine

I am female and have been in a depression for a few years. I don't think it is something one can just snap out of, especially when one is in denial or does not have insight into themselves.
I would tell your husband that you love him, confront him with another family member...someone he respects like your Dad or even a family friend and tell your husband that you will both need to seek counselling and if he does not attend the appointment, then you would like him to move out. 
Tell him you want nothing more than to be close to him and to understand him and that you don't want the marriage to end, but you cannot stand seeing him like this anymore.
Go talk to his parents or other people who know him well to find out why he is so shut down. There is always a key or a clue and finding that clue could get him to open up.
Just really radically try and get his attention. Tell him it is not too late to feel well again. Tell him you will be there every step of the way and that you forgive him. Get in there and fight for him because mental illness, trauma and depression are really difficult to get out of. Once you find a key or a clue, contact counsellors and start going yourself....seek out books and information on what possibly might be going on with your husband and leave it for him to read if he won't talk. Let him know you are willing to work on this, but if he doesn't attend an appointment or agree to start talking, the marriage is over, but make sure you give him warnings about when you are going to have a talk and let him feel comfortable to be open with you because some men just totally shut down because they fear confrontation so deeply. Could be the reason why he doesn't want to take care of his parents? Maybe something there....? find out and good luck.:smthumbup:


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## mitzy

I too have a totally apathetical husband. While I have read about the various reasons that might cause this including my own personality or ideas or behavior,as some have suggested, what I want to address now, is that finally, I too ,got tired of just nothingness in my marriage and my husband having NO spark for life at all, or time for me or our (now mostly adult but one underaged) children in the marriage and his always blaming me for everything, while doing next to nothing about anything, and FORCING me to, just like one poster described and just about as bad.
I did finally LOCK mine out of the house, (drastic but justified and won't go into it just now) as he just wasn't willing to "engage" and when asked about anything, went deaf mute and gave blank stares (disassociated his mind and self from being anything anyone could even relate to let alone communicate with) told me he wanted to be alone, and he made it so, sometimes being very nasty and then holed up in a vacant room (also long story) lay on the floor and did absolutely nothing days on end, and held court from the floor, with anyone that tried to speak to him, as if it was the most natural thing in the world for anyone to behave this way, or to get "sympathy". 
This removal of the "dead" from the home solved nothing, as he is just as apathetical about the seperation. We agreed (meaning I would do it alone), or be excluded from his thoughts and cooperation, to partion and live seperate as we are in a state that has NO legal seperation but I found a loop hole around that and really did not want to divorice and lose ALL my benefits after sticking it out so long and making what I saw as many sacrifices to "earn" them, per the law. 
Not going so well as in this too, he is full of apathy regarding the things we must decide in order for even this to work. Now he is out, but pushing it so I am STILL responsible to do his responsibilities financially to support his being there, rather than here...he only pays ONE of his own bills....gets nasty and threatens me with an ugly divorice and loss of everything if I don't "comply" so it appears I am still expected to nursemaid a man who doesn't even live here or else. My attorney no help as he thinks I should't "rock the boat" and thinks my husband should still be humored. URGGGGGG!
We are also "elderly" in our 50's and 60's. I was a SAHM, and he a workalcoholic. This was MY final attempt to wake him up to his depression, neg attitudes or whatever and the problems in the marriage, finance and home. 
Naturally it is all my fault as I am " a nag". Of course the fact that this is his THIRD marriage hasn't given him a clue that HE might be the issue here. My first marriage, but I am the problem? HMMMMMMMMMMMM. 
He refuses to admit, for all of our 35 years that his total lack of interest in life beyond work might just be the problem. Once he retired I had hoped for FINALLY having the time and money and no young children or adult childrens immediate needs to have a life with the man I fell in love with.
This "improvement" after a previously hellish existance of another Ten more years (after retirement) of nothing unless forced to do it, all these years later (the remainder of my young enough to start again years, not to mention my sexual prime of life, wasted gone poof!!!) 
I realize NOW (ton of bricks I somehow overlooked?) how limited his scope of interest in anything NOT work is.
All the time, all the money but NONE of the interest in life, I had waited so long to share. Zip nothing. 
I finally, made friends (wasn't allowed the time or support, all about the kids or he pouted like a big baby) pursued a hobby (requiring some travel) and tried not to whine too much, and just deal with the alone MORE. 
He didn't like it and wanted me as miserable and isolated as he was, or worse said he LIKED it when I was gone, and therefore," what was the problem?"..the problem was he was lying to himself and me, otherwise why all the complaints about what I was doing and the people I was doing it with? 
He refuses to admit this could be depression, his low esteem due to his sexual inabilities (all in his mind) and not something he would DO much about it and a that he LIKED a big zero there too.
I took the lead until I felt (gee) he was just going through the motions and was being robitic and not at all turned on like I had hoped "help aids" might incite. No zest there either, regarding things that I knew many YOUNG folks engaged in to "excite". Nope, this too was a chore.......This was hard and sickening to me to bear, as men of ALL ages were still showing me some interest.....and I had to pretend it was ME that was sooo uninteresting, and that I should or was somehow supposed to be ok settling with his robotic idea of "interest" or I got nothing and gee, he tried so hard excuses, and MORE blame how it must be me as he did it didn't he?. 
I think I was ALWAYS just his excuse for a personality disorder that he refused to even THINK he had, and that he had had problems with this all his life, but his workalcoholism kept it covered. 
My point, it is NOT you, nor your (our) responsibility, and these folks should be marked, so as to not wasted others time, until they "heal thyself". 
Sorry so bitter, but just livid, I stayed this long with a man incapable of caring about anything at all in life but himself. 
And oh, I think they marry to have a woman to hide behind as every idea he ever put forth as a solution was to expidite everything so he could go back to moping and self indulgence in his isolation. PERIOD


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## mitzy

One more sad note, he keeps saying and threatening divorice (manipulation) but is too lazy to even hire his OWN attorney, and is trying to use mine and his passive aggressive lazy, to make me do this on HIS terms with the lawyer I hired and durn it it appears MY lawyer (also elderly and kind) is helping him, not me.........I can't afford to start over with another and now am dealing with TWO apathetical old men........and am still and now legally (temp orders) responsible for Everything, and until divoriced I don't have a dime, and the debt is mounting the pension shrinking (due to husbands apathy to stop this financial wasted by neglegence on his part and I can't) while neither is doing anything about MY situation at all. 
It seems I have to do the attornies job, and nag him as much as I did hubby to do do ANYTHING for me, or to represent or counsel me beyong telling me "not to rock the boat". 
I am sooooo stuck, I really can hardly cope anymore and nagging BOTH men to ACT or earn their keep, has become a full time job........sorry I didn't just have an affair and think about me,,,,,,,,,,,if I didn't need to stay put, and keep on keeping on for my underaged (about to graduate) daughter I would have run run run....and not looked back years ago, and let him deal with it all. 
It is simply not worth troubling yourself over. Our responsibilities to our children's stability, have us trapped, it seems for a life sentence of total misery...it isn't the money it is the freedom from his oppressive self I needed all along, but now it is too late to be anything but a idiot in misery.


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## Lonely so long

OMG, these posts all ring so true, you are describing my H too.
I just started my own post so won't repeat but it hurts like hell yet there is some comfort is not being alone


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## sara7venus

I have been married for 13 years, and my husband is definitely apathetic. I have tried EVERYTHING. I tried counseling for myself, then for him, and even for our marriage. We have had some good years, but all he does is work. He doesn't take any interest in my AT ALL. He stares at his computer screen, or fixates on YouTube/the internet, and has nothing to do with me in any way, shape or form. He will do things when I ask him to, but other than that, he has nothing to do with me. This morning, he was working in his office (he works from home), and he didn't even say good morning to me. I brought him lunch, and he said, "Oh. Thanks," and went back to working. It's like I am here to serve him food, and do his laundry. Other than that, I have no purpose. And he wonders why I'm not interested in sex. He thinks he can romance me in the 10 minutes we have before bed, at night, and it's not happening.


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## Uptown

Sara, welcome to the TAM forum. You posted in a zombie thread from 2011. The OP (original poster) left five years ago and has not returned. If you would like feedback from other TAM members, I suggest you start your own new thread.


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## tropicalbeachiwish

sara7venus said:


> I have been married for 13 years, and my husband is definitely apathetic. I have tried EVERYTHING. I tried counseling for myself, then for him, and even for our marriage. We have had some good years, but all he does is work. He doesn't take any interest in my AT ALL. He stares at his computer screen, or fixates on YouTube/the internet, and has nothing to do with me in any way, shape or form. He will do things when I ask him to, but other than that, he has nothing to do with me. This morning, he was working in his office (he works from home), and he didn't even say good morning to me. I brought him lunch, and he said, "Oh. Thanks," and went back to working. It's like I am here to serve him food, and do his laundry. Other than that, I have no purpose. And he wonders why I'm not interested in sex. He thinks he can romance me in the 10 minutes we have before bed, at night, and it's not happening.


If you start your own thread, I bet you'd get a lot of advice on your situation.


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## 53791263

Avalon said:


> Trouble started 9 years ago when I quit my job that I hated and started working from home part time. I had full support from DH to do this. He USED TO BE a fun, loving, caring person and a great father. When I started staying home to work, he stopped parenting, stopped communicating with the kids, stopped being a part of their lives at all except for paying the bills. He became a workaholic and addicted to spending hours on the Internet (nothing illegal, just news and computer tech sorts of things). He stopped participating in life, basically.


I haven't read through the pages of responses yet, but here is my response to your initial text. 

You placed you DH into a position where he was forced to give up his other interested in order to make the same amount of money for the family that you once had when you had worked outside of the home and presumable were making more money. 

You forced him into a no win situation, and maybe he went along with it at first, like the story of the frog in the pot of boiling water. Men have significant pride tied up into supporting the family, he is literally killing himself to support the family while you threw in the towel to do whatever the hell you like, girls just wanna have fun, and all that UN-equality stuff that we can't talk about in polite conversation, but it's all good to preach about feminism and woman's rights. 

So you'll take this poor mans kids away from him, the only reason he's been living. You'll vilify him around town and on future dates with men 10 years younger than you. He'll continue to kill himself to pay the alimony and child support. You'll see each other at family events occasionally and you'll act insufferable about it but always remember - That MAN enabled you and those kids to have a good life! He played by the rules that he knew, work hard to support the family financially. You took advantage of him by slacking off. He once loved you and invested his one life that God had given him into you for years, and you're going to do this to him? It honestly brings a tear to my eye thinking about this dudes situation, I was SOOOOO close to being trapped like he is!

The BIGGEST injustice is going to be sanctioned against this man at the family court building. They will assume (because they are too busy to dissect every case) that he was happy with you not making much money. His reward for working so hard to earn the same amount for the family will be the court forcing him to pay you an huge ransom every month so you can continue to do whatever the hell you like, due to the income difference. On that day, he will consider suicide multiple times... if he hasn't done it already, I see this is an old post. Please read this and pay your respects. https://www.facebook.com/Fathers4kids/posts/707829342580894:0

I'm absolutely sure that these 9 years have built up an insurmountable level of contempt and regret on his part. No need to try and salvage any feelings here. 

Love is one thing (I personally am a big fan of loving one woman).... Marriage and children.... not so much.... and with overpopulation, why even do it?

I divorced my wife of 6 years (no kids!!!!). All she wanted to do was "work from home" too. Girls just wanna have fun, have fun paying them bills. I'm pretty sure her car is about to be repossessed any day now.


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