# *Selfish*? HE brought up the topic of our relationship status



## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

I know my other post indicated that I was soon to be having a discussion with him, BUT..............he out of the blue this morning told me he knows I have been unhappy because I have been distant. WELL, of course, there is no intimate relationship here and has been that way for a LONG time, so of course I am going to be more aloof, acting more like a roommate since that is what HE said he wanted. 

Throwing this out there because i have finally gotten a shred of self-confidence - thanks to many of you on this board - to make me think what he said is totally FALSE. He demanded that I tell him once and for all if I 'accept' his terms of staying in this marriage as a platonic relationship, and all other variables being the same. Said i I said "no" that means I am SELFISH because I am giving up on the 90% of the relationship that is GOOD because 10% (having a sexual relationship) is absent. IS THAT SELFISH??? He goes on to say that there is NO person out there who is going to give me a relationship that will be 100% - and that I should be grateful that I have one that is 90%, not selfish and being willing to throw it away for the 10% that isn't there.

I WAS NOT PREPARED FOR HIM TO BRING THIS UP. I was preparing for ME to be the one to initiate the discussion on where this relationship was headed, per my other post. TOTALLY threw me off guard. Now he has me questioning whether or not I AM SELFISH.

AM I SELFISH????


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Of course you are - and that's a GOOD thing! We are all selfish when it comes to our own well-being, and he is simply using this term to *manipulate *you into _sacrificing_ your own well-being and integrity for _HI_S SELFISH reasons. Don't let him get away with this disgusting behavior.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

Married but Happy said:


> Of course you are - and that's a GOOD thing! We are all selfish when it comes to our own well-being, and he is simply using this term to *manipulate *you into _sacrificing_ your own well-being and integrity for _HI_S SELFISH reasons. Don't let him get away with this disgusting behavior.


So HE is being selfish by not giving me a choice in that area of our relationship??? I don't want to leave the relationship and feel guilty that I did something wrong - that would just haunt me forever!


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

LilMissSunshine said:


> So HE is being selfish by not giving me a choice in that area of our relationship??? I don't want to leave the relationship and feel guilty that I did something wrong - that would just haunt me forever!


Yes, you've got it! And you can feel free to leave for whatever reason, if it doesn't work for you. Guilt-free.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Is the only reason you are leaving because of the lack of intimacy, or are there other reasons? How old are you?


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

First off, he can see you're distant and he's trying to manipulate you yet again. Don't fall for it. Second, lol his percentages are WAY OFF. 90% good?!!!PUHHLEASE. 90% good for him maybe because he has a cook, maid, and bill payer and household manager. Let him blather on. Ignore him and his "demand" that you answer him. Business as usual. He's an abusive bully.

If it's "selfish" to want sex with your partner, not to be raged at, bullied, yelled at, belittled at every turn, live in fear with a rageaholic, and to not be treated like a slave in your own home, and have your kid run out of the house in the frigid cold with no shoes because of sheer fear, then most of us on this planet are selfish. HE'S THE SELFISH ONE. He's a straight up *******. If I thought you were wrong or being greedy or selfish, I'd tell you. I have no dog in this fight.

Keep moving forward. Quit listening to him. He has nothing new to say. He's up to his old tricks. Again.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

LilMissSunshine said:


> ISaid i I said "no" that means I am SELFISH because I am giving up on the 90% of the relationship that is GOOD because 10% (having a sexual relationship) is absent.


It's crazy that people can have that viewpoint. There are a few foundational principles in a marriage which need to be there unconditionally, such as fidelity, intimacy, communication, etc. If any of them are missing, the marriage will fall apart. If that's his viewpoint, don't even waste the energy to wave goodbye when you leave.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Do you agree with that 90% of your relationship is good and that the only part that is not is the sexual part?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

He will tell you that you are being selfish because he isn't getting his way. Why don't you put it right back on him where it belongs. Tell him that HIS selfishness has destroyed the last shred of love you had for him and you can get a dog that will not have anger issues and will cuddle with you at night. Of course, you'll still have to clean up crap but it won't be that different.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

No two people can meet the needs of each other 100%. If you think they could you will be forever unhappy and searching for that perfect mate that does not exist. To expect 100% of your spouse can be viewed as unrealistic and become selfish if you insist on it even though it means your spouse does not get 100% too.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

lucy999 said:


> First off, he can see you're distant and he's trying to manipulate you yet again. Don't fall for it. Second, lol his percentages are WAY OFF. 90% good?!!!PUHHLEASE. 90% good for him maybe because he has a cook, maid, and bill payer and household manager. Let him blather on. Ignore him and his "demand" that you answer him. Business as usual. He's an abusive bully.
> 
> If it's "selfish" to want sex with your partner, not to be raged at, bullied, yelled at, belittled at every turn, live in fear with a rageaholic, and to not be treated like a slave in your own home, and have your kid run out of the house in the frigid cold with no shoes because of sheer fear, then most of us on this planet are selfish. HE'S THE SELFISH ONE. He's a straight up *******. If I thought you were wrong or being greedy or selfish, I'd tell you. I have no dog in this fight.
> 
> Keep moving forward. Quit listening to him. He has nothing new to say. He's up to his old tricks. Again.


LUCY, I am panicking over here. He is going to be back in an hour or so and I am sure this conversation will continue. It only stopped because a family member across town needed something and he had to go help. YES, I do all of those things, but he also keeps a roof over our heads, brings me gifts and remembers special occasions, watches my favorite shows with me if I ask, and I could name off other things........I don't want to paint him as ALL BAD and hope I haven't. Aren't those things important, too??? I was confident in myself and my direction (per my plans in the other post) until this came up and my selfishness was pointed out - I would feel HORRIBLE if I am the one at fault and too blind to see it. WOULD YOU REALLY TELL ME??? He says my voicing my concerns over a 25 year period about our romantic relationship is what has turned him off, and it is a situation OF MY OWN DOING which has caused him to have 110% NO INTEREST in that area. It's ME that has creating an unloving situation - is he right? I am seriously in a full-blown panic attack right now.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

So he's owed a platonic marriage?

Why are you selfish and he's not?

Let's assume you are selfish. 

Why is it ok that he's selfish but not that you are? Seems to me that a guy who thinks he's entitled to a marriage on his terms is in fact very selfish. 

You seem to be looking for reasons to stay married to this guy. If all it takes for you to fold is a ********* accusing you of being selfish then part of you doesn't want to go.

Ask yourself why.

Read my story. I recently divorced a guy who accused me of "throwing away" our life together. Except that the marriage was only working for him.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Good God! Your husband is blowing smoke up your ass. Calm down and think about the biblical import of cleaving unto one another. You have tried to keep the embers burning and he's been doing nothing but throwing water on the sparks. Tell him that 'yes, it's all my fault and I want a ****ing divorce'. Then gather up your skirts and sashay the hell out of the room.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

LilMissSunshine said:


> YES, I do all of those things, but he also keeps a roof over our heads, brings me gifts and remembers special occasions, watches my favorite shows with me if I ask, and I could name off other things........I don't want to paint him as ALL BAD and hope I haven't. Aren't those things important, too??? I was confident in myself and my direction (per my plans in the other post) until this came up and my selfishness was pointed out - I would feel HORRIBLE if I am the one at fault and too blind to see it. WOULD YOU REALLY TELL ME??? He says my voicing my concerns over a 25 year period about our romantic relationship is what has turned him off, and it is a situation OF MY OWN DOING which has caused him to have 110% NO INTEREST in that area. It's ME that has creating an unloving situation - is he right?


My abusive ex bf cooked beautiful meals for me, got me an industrial kitchen aid mixer for my bday (probably stole it), and came and rescued me 40 miles away in a wicked nasty ice storm once. Does that absolve him of 12 years of abuse? Hell no. In my world, watching my favorite shows with me and remembering special days and buying me gifts would not mitigate the abuse I suffered. But only you can answer the question. 

Don't you work, too? Or didn't you at one time? Doesn't that help keep a roof over your heads too? 

This is why I don't like the idea of you continuing to live with him after you tell him you are divorcing him. All he has to do is say one thing and you start doubting your decision again. He has a very powerful hold on you and your self confidence is shattered. This is in no way a healthy and loving relationship!

If you think you can live like you have been with his raging and no sex, by all means, stay. But if you cannot live this way anymore, you should forge ahead with your plans with divorce. It really IS that simple. You have to learn to tune your husband out. Is there any way you can call the domestic violence center while he is still out of the house right now? You need someone to help buoy you up in low times like these when he tries to Push you back down. Can you call your friend who has been so instrumental in helping you dig your way out of this misery?

And yes. I would be honest with you. I would be respectful in disagreeing with your opinion about this issue, but I would be honest if I thought otherwise.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> Good God! Your husband is blowing smoke up your ass. Calm down and think about the biblical import of cleaving unto one another. You have tried to keep the embers burning and he's been doing nothing but throwing water on the sparks. Tell him that 'yes, it's all my fault and I want a ****ing divorce'. Then gather up your skirts and sashay the hell out of the room.


YES, I tried to keep the embers burning, but he says my approach was all WRONG. He says all I ever did was hint around trying to get him to take action, when I should have been direct and taken action myself. He says it is ME that created that scenario, NOT him. IS THAT LOGICAL??? I somewhat think it makes sense and I am feeling bad that maybe I shouldn't have just hinted around, tried to make HIM interested, that I should have just went full force ahead and taken action myself if that is what he says caused him to eventually lose interest. THIS IS WHAT MY HESITATION IS. What I just explained. I NEEDED HIM to ACT interested and maybe wasn't as direct as I should have been, but I NEED to know that it was coming from the heart with him and it never felt that way when it was me taking action. So according to him, I have done nothing but TALK about keeping the embers burning and not DOING, and that was a major turn-off to him. Is that logical or him really trying to make me crazy?? I don't even know if this makes sense. BUT THIS is what is holding me back. Was I WRONG to not be more direct, even though I NEEDED it to be coming from him to feel like it was heart-felt?


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> So he's owed a platonic marriage?
> 
> Why are you selfish and he's not?
> 
> ...



See my response below about WHAT it is that seems to be stuck in my brain that i need to find peace with................THAT is the answer to this whole ordeal - I truly NEED that issue resolved before I can find peace. Please read and see what you think.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> Is the only reason you are leaving because of the lack of intimacy, or are there other reasons? How old are you?


Diana, I am 53, been married 25 years. He has a bad temper and explosive anger, though it's usually only about certain topics (intimacy being the big one). He has gained 100 pounds, seems depressed, and also not physically healthy (he has been diagnosed with low T before in the past and I am convinced still has it). He also is not physically healthy with blood pressure and overall health. He doesn't take good care of himself and I think it spills over into some of these personality issues. The intimacy and anger are the two major issues.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

wilson said:


> It's crazy that people can have that viewpoint. There are a few foundational principles in a marriage which need to be there unconditionally, such as fidelity, intimacy, communication, etc. If any of them are missing, the marriage will fall apart. If that's his viewpoint, don't even waste the energy to wave goodbye when you leave.


He says I have broken 'trust' which is also foundational, because when our romantic relationship started dwindling, I told him I needed him to be more initiating because that's how I knew that he loved me. He says if I trusted him, I would know that he loved me whether or not he initiated. So if the intimacy isn't there because of him, we are 'even' since there is no 'trust' from me (which I don't see 'trust' being the issue, I still needed to know he loved me by him initiating a physical relationship. It wasn't a matter that I didn't TRUST he did because he said so, i needed to know by him DOING something about it. Physical touch/affection is my primary love language).


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> Do you agree with that 90% of your relationship is good and that the only part that is not is the sexual part?


Honestly, YES. The anger issues all stem from around the intimacy issue for the most part. So the two issues are really one in the same. Everything else really is GOOD in the sense that we like some of the same activities, we have similar backgrounds, love each other's families, have children together, a home together, etc.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> He will tell you that you are being selfish because he isn't getting his way. Why don't you put it right back on him where it belongs. Tell him that HIS selfishness has destroyed the last shred of love you had for him and you can get a dog that will not have anger issues and will cuddle with you at night. Of course, you'll still have to clean up crap but it won't be that different.


LOL, it's funny that you say that...........he says that I expected too much out of him in the way of being intimate and that I needed a dog that would do what I wanted when I wanted. I was happy with being intimate 1x a week. That IMO was NOT unreasonable.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> So he's owed a platonic marriage?
> 
> 
> Read my story. I recently divorced a guy who accused me of "throwing away" our life together. Except that the marriage was only working for him.


I am going to read your posts right now! I want to hear your story, lifeistooshort..............I do.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

Vinnydee said:


> No two people can meet the needs of each other 100%. If you think they could you will be forever unhappy and searching for that perfect mate that does not exist. To expect 100% of your spouse can be viewed as unrealistic and become selfish if you insist on it even though it means your spouse does not get 100% too.


DEFINITELY do not expect 100%, but the intimacy part and wanting to be platonic friends, well - I can't meet that need anywhere else. Some of the other things I can - with friends, work, family, etc. But the intimacy thing, it's just hard to accept that is the missing 10%. Seems like a critical piece, or at least it is for me. Just makes me sad. :frown2:


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

lucy999 said:


> My abusive ex bf cooked beautiful meals for me, got me an industrial kitchen aid mixer for my bday (probably stole it), and came and rescued me 40 miles away in a wicked nasty ice storm once. Does that absolve him of 12 years of abuse? Hell no. In my world, watching my favorite shows with me and remembering special days and buying me gifts would not mitigate the abuse I suffered. But only you can answer the question.
> 
> Don't you work, too? Or didn't you at one time? Doesn't that help keep a roof over your heads too?
> 
> ...


YES, I work. My income really just covers 'extras'..............I was resolute in my decision to leave until he and I start having discussions, and YES, he has me doubting my decision. I need to make sure I am not at fault, Lucy. If i can find peace with that, then even with his doing what he does I can say NO and walk away. but I need to know that what he says that I did to ruin this relationship is NOT really my fault or else I will not be able to go in good conscience. If I am at fault, I need to do whatever I can to fix it. Read what I wrote in one of my replies about WHAT SPECIFICALLY I am battling - the whole 'action vs. talk' thing................if he's right, I need to listen. If he's not, well............then I need to go.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LilMissSunshine said:


> Honestly, YES. The anger issues all stem from around the intimacy issue for the most part. So the two issues are really one in the same. Everything else really is GOOD in the sense that we like some of the same activities, we have similar backgrounds, love each other's families, have children together, a home together, etc.


From what you have written, it sounds to me like your marriage is missing both non-sexual intimacy and sexual intimacy. Everything else that you have in this marriage you can get from friends and extended family.

And apparently due to his refusal to engage in any form of intimacy, the only way you get these is by going outside of your marriage. He's playing head games with you because he knows that you are insecure in your right to have your needs met. He knows that he can manipulate you. He's been doing it for a long time.

My suggestion is that you work on yourself until you can look him in the eye and say that no, 90% of the marriage is not good because intimacy (nonsexual and sexual, is the single thing that separates a marriage from every other relationship. Without intimacy you do not really have a marriage. So there is no reason to continue the marriage.

You are letting him mess with your head.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> From what you have written, it sounds to me like your marriage is missing both non-sexual intimacy and sexual intimacy. Everything else that you have in this marriage you can get from friends and extended family.
> 
> And apparently due to his refusal to engage in any form of intimacy, the only way you get these is by going outside of your marriage. He's playing head games with you because he knows that you are insecure in your right to have your needs met. He knows that he can manipulate you. He's been doing it for a long time.
> 
> ...


Correct. The things I need I can only get from him. I know I have a lot of work to do. I feel empowered when I am not at home, at work, with friends, etc, but when I am home just somehow COWER and can't put rational thoughts together again. I feel CONFIDENT that things aren't working and that I will leave...........until.............I come home (. But yes - I have been trying to work on myself.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

This is going to sound really harsh but he can read you like a book. He knows exactly what you’re thinking and what your up to. He also knows exactly what to say to get you right back to square one. Once again he’s taken control, using you’re very obvious trait of low self confidence and used it to get you right where he wants you. He plays you like a fiddle.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@LilMissSunshine,

May I ask you a question? Let's play the "Worst Case Scenario" game. Do you know what that is? It''s where you take exactly what it is that has you SOOOOO upset, and ask yourself "What's the worst possible thing that could happen if that's true?"

SOOOOO...he says you are being selfish for ending a marriage that (in his words) is 90% good and 10% bad. He is saying you should accept a sexless marriage because it was YOUR technique of hinting that turned him off. YOU are second-guessing yourself because WHAT IF your hints were what made him stop wanting to have sex and you should have been more forward about it? WHAT IF he is giving the 90% good side, and it's because of you that the 10% is bad. 

Here's the "Worst Case Scenario" question: What if that's true? What if his "accusations" are 100% exactly correct? What happens if he honestly never "got" your hints and all-of-a-sudden, out-of-the-blue now you've made it clear that you don't want a sexless marriage and he got blindsided? What if you really and truly are being ENTIRELY selfish?

Do you NOT have the right to state what you do and do not want in your life?

Do you NOT have the right to state what you do and do not NEED in your life?

Do you NOT have the right to state what you will and will not tolerate in your life?

Is "selfish" always "bad"? Or is self-interest sometimes healthy?

See, I'm not there with you, and I do not know all the facts, who's right, who's wrong, and what is "the truth" in your marriage. I'm sure you are telling us your version of "the truth" and I'm equally sure that his version would be very different. 

But what I do know is that as a loving, caring partner, if I didn't catch "hints" that my partner was dissatisfied in our love life, the first thing I would think is "How did I get so disconnected from him/her that I didn't see that?" 

The next thing I'd think is "Okay...now that I DO know, how do I change so that our love life is mutually satisfying?" because marriage and sexuality are MUTUAL, and that means both parties need to be okay with what's going on: how, when, where, how often....

Clearly by now he has gotten the message that you expect a sexual relationship in your marriage. He says he didn't want hints but a more direct approach. BUT you've been direct and he still isn't having sex with you OR doing any kind of work to reconnect sexually. I mean, it might be one thing if you two were going to a sex therapist and he was going to a physician to get some sort of treatment to get that motor running again, but he KNOWS you want some sort of sexual connection and has abjectly refused to do anything.

SOOOO..so what if you are acting in your own self-interest? In real life, not only are you allowed to act on your own boundaries (aka "I won't be in a marriage that is not sexual") but it is healthy to do so!

So what if hinting turned him off and he would have preferred a more direct approach? In real life, he knows directly NOW and is not acting to work on himself OR the marriage! 

So my advice to you is to play the "Worst Case Scenario" game. Let's say you ARE being entirely selfish, and your hinting turned him off and he chose to never be sexual with you again. Let's say you don't want to be in a marriage that is non-sexual and you choose to leave a 90% good, non-sexual marriage. So what? Will the world stop spinning? Will you burn in hell? Will your son hate your guts? What is the WORST that could happen? Because I have a newsflash for ya: it's not that bad, and you can survive it!


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

How would you 'taking action' rather than hinting around that you would like him to initiate have shown you that he desired you? What does he mean by 'taking action'? Did he want you to tell him to get himself into the bedroom and get it up and be ready in five? Did he want you to unzip his pants and give him a blow job in the middle of the living room? Did he ever tell you to try a different approach?

You do know that even if you had 'taken action' that he would use that as an excuse for why he didn't want to initiate because you were too forceful or not ladylike or feminine enough.

This could all boil down to the fact that he is physically out of shape, couldn't get it up with a crane and just wants to blame you rather than admit that he is impotent. Protecting his ego at your expense. Is that loving or kind or being a good husband? Does that make for a good marriage or even a half-way decent one?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LilMissSunshine said:


> Correct. The things I need I can only get from him. I know I have a lot of work to do. I feel empowered when I am not at home, at work, with friends, etc, *but when I am home just somehow COWER and can't put rational thoughts together again.* I feel CONFIDENT that things aren't working and that I will leave...........until.............I come home (. But yes - I have been trying to work on myself.


It would really help you if you stop listening to the manipulative things that he says. You have decided that you cannot stay in a marriage in which your needs are not being me. So stop talking to him about it. If he starts to talk about it, just tell him that it's no open for discussion and walk away.

Look at the link in my signature block below for the 180. It has some very good suggestions on who to deal with this. Do not engage in discussions about your relationship anymore.

Is there any way that you can leave, or have him leave? Since you know that you have a weakness in which you leave yourself open to his manipulation, you need to protect yourself. The best way to do this is to not be around him. Over time your bond to him will fade away and his words will have no affect on you.

If you cannot move out or get him to move out, could you at least be away from him as much as possible?


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

Will respond back shortly.............he is back home and calling me to come and talk.  TG I have this board. My mind is spinning.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

LilMissSunshine said:


> I know my other post indicated that I was soon to be having a discussion with him, BUT..............he out of the blue this morning told me he knows I have been unhappy because I have been distant. WELL, of course, there is no intimate relationship here and has been that way for a LONG time, so of course I am going to be more aloof, acting more like a roommate since that is what HE said he wanted.
> 
> Throwing this out there because i have finally gotten a shred of self-confidence - thanks to many of you on this board - to make me think what he said is totally FALSE. He demanded that I tell him once and for all if I 'accept' his terms of staying in this marriage as a platonic relationship, and all other variables being the same. Said i I said "no" that means I am SELFISH because I am giving up on the 90% of the relationship that is GOOD because 10% (having a sexual relationship) is absent. IS THAT SELFISH??? He goes on to say that there is NO person out there who is going to give me a relationship that will be 100% - and that I should be grateful that I have one that is 90%, not selfish and being willing to throw it away for the 10% that isn't there.
> 
> ...


Well, let's see what some random people have to say about your husband:-



















Are you thinking of complying with his unilateral demands?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LilMissSunshine said:


> Will respond back shortly.............he is back home and calling me to come and talk. TG I have this board. My mind is spinning.


Stop talking.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

LilMissSunshine said:


> So HE is being selfish by not giving me a choice in that area of our relationship??? I don't want to leave the relationship and feel guilty that I did something wrong - that would just haunt me forever!


You are being manipulated pure and simple. You are letting him dictate how you feel. 

It is not selfish or self centered to leave a relationship where your partner has left the relationship. If what he is doing is hurting you it isn't selfishness to end the relationship. Leaving a relationship where you are being hurt is a personal choice and some would say a personal responsibility. You aren't doing this to hurt him. You are doing this so you can be a healthy person. I fail to see how that is selfish.

Also, I think you would have people stick with you and understand your situation more clearly if you would stick to one thread. The topic is your life and your marriage. You only need one thread for that.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

Stand up for yourself! Tell him what you will and will not accept.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

In the end it is up to you to determine what is a true benefit in your life and what is not... if he is manipulative or not, the final determination is up wholly up to you.

You are reacting to his calling you selfish... self-preservation of self may or may not be selfish depending on that sacrificed.

If he is unable to survive a living, breathing life without you then you may be, but I doubt this the case... he is far from dependent on you.

When you respond, leave it with a diffuser... buffer with one of the big three:

*I'm sorry you feel that way. 

*I see things differently.

*I’m not okay with x.

And walk away to take a breath in private thinking about how your current needs are affecting and reacting to things that take away your calm and feeling of self-worth.

No one can take away your self-worth without permission... and using "trust" as words without actions is an unmindful way to try to control someone else.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

He has make it clear that sex is not important to him--blames you which is ridiculous. Intimacy, connection, bonding, are part of sex. I doubt many men would call intimacy (including sex) an 10% of what is necessary in a marriage. You obviously consider it more than 10% or you would not be posting. He inflates his position and pretends his weaknesses are unimportant. 

You are an intelligent person and I do not understand why you buy in to his drivel. Only you know how you want to live the rest of your life. Make your decisions about the future on what is important to you. IMO: If he chose, if you were important enough to him, he would work on what you need, not negate it.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

His response is no surprise. He's been manipulating you for years and he's well aware of that. 

I hope you stand your ground this time. But as I've said before, he doesn't really want a divorce -- despite pretending to so you would back off -- and he will likely keep trying to talk you out of it.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

I’m not super familiar with your story, but I sometimes feel that I have 90% in my relationship because of our huge difference in drives. We are working on it, but I know it will never be the way I want it to be, but, I am crazy in love with my H, and I do love everything else about our relationship. I knew we had a difference in drive, and I accepted that and married him anyway, and I don’t regret that. I love being with him and l love our life. 

It sounds like you have a lot of other issues that you are not happy with besides the lack of intimacy. I will try to catch up on your backstory so I can better advise (if at all). I just wanted to throw out that I do understand a bit where you are coming from, and I don’t think it’s selfish to want a sexual relationship with your spouse! It still boggles my mind that people don’t want one!


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## Ms. Hawaii (Mar 28, 2018)

LilMissSunshine said:


> He has a bad temper and explosive anger, though it's usually only about certain topics (intimacy being the big one). He has gained 100 pounds, seems depressed, and also not physically healthy (he has been diagnosed with low T before in the past and I am convinced still has it). He also is not physically healthy with blood pressure and overall health. He doesn't take good care of himself and I think it spills over into some of these personality issues. The intimacy and anger are the two major issues.




Yet the relationship is good 90 % of the time. I think someone needs to double check their math.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

LilMissSunshine said:


> I know my other post indicated that I was soon to be having a discussion with him, BUT..............he out of the blue this morning told me he knows I have been unhappy because I have been distant. WELL, of course, there is no intimate relationship here and has been that way for a LONG time, so of course I am going to be more aloof, acting more like a roommate since that is what HE said he wanted.
> 
> Throwing this out there because i have finally gotten a shred of self-confidence - thanks to many of you on this board - to make me think what he said is totally FALSE. He demanded that I tell him once and for all if I 'accept' his terms of staying in this marriage as a platonic relationship, and all other variables being the same. Said i I said "no" that means I am SELFISH because I am giving up on the 90% of the relationship that is GOOD because 10% (having a sexual relationship) is absent. IS THAT SELFISH??? He goes on to say that there is NO person out there who is going to give me a relationship that will be 100% - and that I should be grateful that I have one that is 90%, not selfish and being willing to throw it away for the 10% that isn't there.
> 
> ...


NO a platonic relationship is not marriage. Tell him you can still have a platonic relationship and not be married and you are perfectly willing to do that. Then tell him good luck. Marriage involves sex, period. That was part of the deal. 

Listen to me @LilMissSunshine you have every right to want to have a physical relationship in your marriage. There is nothing unreasonable about that. That is as common as the sunshine (to use something you are familiar with). The world sings songs about that, they go to movies, write books all about wanting to have that with someone else. All the major religions that I know about celebrate that in some way. Marriage is about that. YOU ARE NOT ASKING FOR ANYTHING UNREASONABLE. 

I think you are going to find that the problems in the marriage go way deeper then your sex life. The sex life thing is a result of the deeper problem. That problem is HE is actually selfish, controlling and manipulative. I mean the answer to his question is "let's not make it about sex. Let's just say I don't want to be with a partner, whom when I tell them I have a primary reasonable need in my relationship, doesn't any desire to help me but actively tells me I am selfish for wanting that need. Who casually dismisses my needs, whatever they are. If my needs are not important in my marriage then it's not 90% good or even 50% good. It's just bad because it's 100% him and 0% me. As long as you gets to decide what needs are important the marriage is 100% about you." End of discussion. 

My friend you need to get some IC to figure out why you have such a hard time asking for your needs to be met. Do you always feel guilty when you want something? What is that about? Maybe you have been with this abusive man so long that you don't feel you have a right to have wants, but you are wrong. This is really the starting point to the struggles you are having. Once you get past this you will be able to really change your life. I just don't want you to leave this guy and end up with another guy just like him. Let me tell you as a husband I get great pleasure out of meeting my wife's needs (not just sex), I feel like that is part of why I am here. It's part of my mission. But if she never asks for them then it's up to me to be clairvoyant. That's not good, I am going to miss stuff even at my best. So even if you were to meet a man who thinks like me you are cheating yourself and HIM out of something that could be pleasurable for both of you. 

Anyway, we finally got you to a place where you could see how manipulative he was of you, but of course when he starts to see you getting stronger he is going to try to go back to his old tactics of controlling you. Don't fall for it. Don't let him do this to you. See it for what it is. You only want what 90% of this world wants (see what I did there). Be strong! 

Finally it's OK to be selfish some of the time in marriage. It's marriage not slavery. This is still your life you still have needs, he agreed to support those needs as part of the deal in marrying you. 

Seriously If I was going to be blunt. **** him with his manipulation and friend zone. JUST MOVE ON!


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

LilMissSunshine said:


> Diana, I am 53, been married 25 years. He has a bad temper and explosive anger, though it's usually only about certain topics (intimacy being the big one). He has gained 100 pounds, seems depressed, and also not physically healthy (he has been diagnosed with low T before in the past and I am convinced still has it). He also is not physically healthy with blood pressure and overall health. He doesn't take good care of himself and I think it spills over into some of these personality issues. The intimacy and anger are the two major issues.


OK, and you said that the anger is mostly because of of the intimacy issues. 

I am 62, he 61, and if my husband for whatever reason no longer wanted sex or couldn't have sex I wouldn't leave him because the rest of the marriage is great. He is great, and I love him very much. Also I know that if he died or we broke up I would not be interested in another man after him. So for me I would remain single. 

If you feel that you cant be in a marriage were there is no sex, that is of course your choice. We are all different. I guess its whether you are happy with the glass 90% full and can appreciate all of his good qualities, or whether you want to go after a man who may want regular sex but who may well be lacking that 10% in another area. None of us are perfect are we in the end. You may need to consider that you may not meet a man who has all you want, so you may end up alone. So that's another issue. 

My first husband had anger issues and it is hard to live with, but if they are due to this one subject then maybe he would stop if you didn't bring it up. Again, its your choice as to what you do.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> OK, and you said that the anger is mostly because of of the intimacy issues.
> 
> I am 62, he 61, and if my husband for whatever reason no longer wanted sex or couldn't have sex I wouldn't leave him because the rest of the marriage is great. He is great, and I love him very much. Also I know that if he died or we broke up I would not be interested in another man after him. So for me I would remain single.
> 
> ...


This is not the situation though. She asked her husband to help her as it IS important to her and he said, no - get over it. Lets say there was something important to you that YOU had to have in the relationship and your husband stopped doing that. Like say communication. Then you asked him to help you and he said. "Aehh, 90% of the relationship is good, (really meaning 100% of the relationship is good for me) so you have to get over it, and if you don't you are being selfish." Would you be so quick to want to stay. 

That's the thing with these stories and what lots of people miss. It's not really the sex that is the problem it's the partners lack of interest in trying to make it better.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

I read through all of the replies and I KNOW that he is manipulating me, I can see it - I do so good when I am not at home and thinking clearly. It's the coming home and getting sucked into these discussions with him that bring me right back where I started. I love the "worst case scenario" example, Affaircare. That helps. Blondi, Elegirl, Sokillme, I get what you are saying. I need to find a way to not be around so much if my confidence and second-guessing decisions keeps popping up. I will say, Diana, what you shared is exactly what I fear - that I'm expecting the unattainable and being completely unrealistic and that he is right - I should appreciate the 90% there. I definitely do not want to end up alone. I do believe what SoKillMe is saying rings true, though - he isn't willing to work with me on something he knows is important to me. I also think he has depression as well as known health problems to which he won't get help with either. I have tried motivating him in both of those areas for years and have made ZERO progress. Those health issues are impacting other parts of our lives. I would never leave him for a medical condition, accident, etc. if was something he couldn't help AND he was taking care of himself, taking responsibility, etc., but when he makes NO effort and hasn't for years, it is very, very discouraging.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

So how did "the talk" go with him last night when he came home?


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

lucy999 said:


> So how did "the talk" go with him last night when he came home?


Lucy, it just went round-and-round with him saying that had I actually taken the initiative more in the last few years and not just 'hinted' to him that I was interested, "nagged" at him for not being more interested, etc., he may not feel how he does now, which is that "that" part of our relationship has caused him so much "pain" over the years, he is ready to let that "black cloud" go and hopes that I can learn to love the rest of our relationship. Kept saying I was selfish for not accepting him as he is, and that I am crazy to leave a 25-year relationship over lack of intimacy. Says if I would give up on this topic, the majority of his anger issues would go away. HE brought up the topic of divorcing and says the ball is in my court now.

The 'black cloud" comment hurt. And I still think he is suffering from untreated depression and medical problems and has been for years. I feel kind of SAD for him, in a way. 

I am sure that if I separated myself emotionally and physically as has been suggested, I would be handling all of this better, and would quit second-guessing myself. Given that I will be the one staying in the house, that is just going to be difficult - but maybe I can figure out how.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LilMissSunshine said:


> He says my voicing my concerns over a 25 year period about our romantic relationship is what has turned him off, and it is a situation OF MY OWN DOING which has caused him to have 110% NO INTEREST in that area.


LMS, this is 100% MANIPULATION. Have you read anything about emotional abuse? 

I'm having trouble putting your whole story together because you keep starting new threads (please stop doing that!). What has your marriage been like? Does he get angry? Yell? Withdraw and not speak to you for hours or days? Blame you? Turn your complaints around on you? Someone said your kid ran out of the house cos he/she was scared? This is abuse.

And as for being selfish? The first 20 years of my marriage, if I EVER wanted to do anything for myself, go see friends, go see my mom, go shopping by myself, just sit and read a book - my H told me I was selfish. EVERY SINGLE TIME. It got to the point that I gave up all my friends, lost contact with my family, gave up all hobbies, NEVER went shopping without him - all to avoid his judgment and condemnation. He'd come home and ask me what I got accomplished. He'd criticize me on the computer. To this day, 40 years of marriage, if I hear him driving up, I jump off the couch and pretend to be doing something. All because he convinced me I wasn't allowed to be 'selfish.'

So guess what my IC is working with me on? She literally last week said that if he says I'm being selfish, my reply is to be "You're right. I *AM *being selfish. I deserve to be selfish just as much as you do."

Make sense?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LilMissSunshine said:


> YES, I work. My income really just covers 'extras'..............I was resolute in my decision to leave until he and I start having discussions, and YES, he has me doubting my decision. I need to make sure I am not at fault, Lucy. If i can find peace with that, then even with his doing what he does I can say NO and walk away. but I need to know that what he says that I did to ruin this relationship is NOT really my fault or else I will not be able to go in good conscience. If I am at fault, I need to do whatever I can to fix it. Read what I wrote in one of my replies about WHAT SPECIFICALLY I am battling - the whole 'action vs. talk' thing................if he's right, I need to listen. If he's not, well............then I need to go.


*You are not at fault.
*
You have a RIGHT to a marriage that makes you happy. He refuses to do what makes you happy. Therefore, you owe it to yourself to leave him and find happiness (just don't expect some guy to do it for you; your happiness has to come from within YOU). Sex, sure, but the rest is up to you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LilMissSunshine said:


> Correct. The things I need I can only get from him. I know I have a lot of work to do. I feel empowered when I am not at home, at work, with friends, etc, but when I am home just somehow COWER and can't put rational thoughts together again. I feel CONFIDENT that things aren't working and that I will leave...........until.............I come home (. But yes - I have been trying to work on myself.


This is exactly me. Everywhere else, I'm fine. But his judgment makes me shake in my boots. Every single session, my IC keeps asking me "What's the worst that can happen if you don't do what he wants?" I know he won't leave me, he won't physically hurt me, he never yells anymore, so basically, the worst that can happen is he is DISAPPOINTED in me. 

And that's MY problem, not his, to get past. 

Are you in therapy? You need to be.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

LilMissSunshine said:


> I read through all of the replies and I KNOW that he is manipulating me, I can see it - I do so good when I am not at home and thinking clearly. It's the coming home and getting sucked into these discussions with him that bring me right back where I started. I love the "worst case scenario" example, Affaircare. That helps. Blondi, Elegirl, Sokillme, I get what you are saying. I need to find a way to not be around so much if my confidence and second-guessing decisions keeps popping up. I will say, Diana, what you shared is exactly what I fear - that I'm expecting the unattainable and being completely unrealistic and that he is right - I should appreciate the 90% there. I definitely do not want to end up alone. I do believe what SoKillMe is saying rings true, though - he isn't willing to work with me on something he knows is important to me. I also think he has depression as well as known health problems to which he won't get help with either. I have tried motivating him in both of those areas for years and have made ZERO progress. Those health issues are impacting other parts of our lives. I would never leave him for a medical condition, accident, etc. if was something he couldn't help AND he was taking care of himself, taking responsibility, etc., but when he makes NO effort and hasn't for years, it is very, very discouraging.


Check his porn use and his phone.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

lucy999 said:


> So how did "the talk" go with him last night when he came home?





turnera said:


> LMS, this is 100% MANIPULATION. Have you read anything about emotional abuse?
> 
> I'm having trouble putting your whole story together because you keep starting new threads (please stop doing that!). What has your marriage been like? Does he get angry? Yell? Withdraw and not speak to you for hours or days? Blame you? Turn your complaints around on you? Someone said your kid ran out of the house cos he/she was scared? This is abuse.
> 
> ...


WHY do you say that statement is manipulation??? Please explain.................I really want to understand. I know other things he has said probably is, but that in particular.............how is that manipulative?

Did not realize the posts were confusing, they were kind of about two separate things so I thought it would be more confusing to put them in one. I can put it all in one if that's the case - do others feel that way too, I wonder?

My H tells me to take time for myself, spend dollars on myself, all of those things, so he is very good in that area. I have no issues with that. I'm glad your counselor is helping. I have seen the same one off and on for several years and I don't really think there is much more she can help me with.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

sokillme said:


> Check his porn use and his phone.


Seriously? If he has always been LD, how in the world would either of these be an issue? I would be SHOCKED if either one of those were true knowing what i know about him. He feels so bad about his 100 lb. weight gain and doesn't take care of himself, there is no way he would be comfortable with someone else -he isn't even comfortable with me! The porn.............I seriously don't think he is really into that kind of stuff, but there is always a small chance I could be wrong. Just feel like I kind of know him after 25 years, but...........


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

@LilMissSunshine I suppose you'd really have no way of knowing, but could @Blondilocks theory of your H having erectile dysfunction be correct? When's the last time you had sex? I still maintain that he's super miserable because he's morbidly obese at 100 lbs. overweight.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a time you did indeed initiate sex only to be criticized, he told you that you were doing it wrong? I'll repeat that he likes to move the goalposts.

And, again, it really is simple. If you can live with him without sex, stay. You know he won't change. You also know he's manipulative and abusive. I do find it sad you are seriously weighing your options of staying against being alone, though. I'd rather be alone. Here's the thing-how would you know if you'd meet someone better if you were still with your husband? Because you certainly don't strike me as the cheating type. I'd rather take the 50/50 odds and roll the dice and take a chance.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LilMissSunshine said:


> WHY do you say that statement is manipulation??? Please explain.................I really want to understand. I know other things he has said probably is, but that in particular.............how is that manipulative?
> 
> Did not realize the posts were confusing, they were kind of about two separate things so I thought it would be more confusing to put them in one. I can put it all in one if that's the case - do others feel that way too, I wonder?
> 
> My H tells me to take time for myself, spend dollars on myself, all of those things, so he is very good in that area. I have no issues with that. I'm glad your counselor is helping. I have seen the same one off and on for several years and I don't really think there is much more she can help me with.


Try a new therapist. One who deals with codependency. And read the book Codependent No More.

Manipulation is when he wants one outcome so he reacts to your wants and needs by turning them around on you. You say you need affection; he says it's your own damn fault I won't be affectionate cos you made a big deal about it/didn't make it clear enough what you wanted/are being selfish.

That is him manipulating your thinking. And it's working, isn't it? In just a couple days, you're now thinking this is YOUR fault, YOU should have done things differently, he's just the victim here. 

Until you leave the house and interact with normal people who would never say such a thing to you, and that 'fog' he created clears, you feel empowered again, and you again realize you need to leave. 

That's what manipulation does - it fogs your mind. It makes you doubt yourself. The manipulator TAKES NO RESPONSIBILITY and instead makes you take it on.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

LilMissSunshine said:


> Seriously? If he has always been LD, how in the world would either of these be an issue? I would be SHOCKED if either one of those were true knowing what i know about him. He feels so bad about his 100 lb. weight gain and doesn't take care of himself, there is no way he would be comfortable with someone else -he isn't even comfortable with me! The porn.............I seriously don't think he is really into that kind of stuff, but there is always a small chance I could be wrong. Just feel like I kind of know him after 25 years, but...........


Speaking as a man. Check his porn use.

In another post above your wrote you are separating these posts because you think of all of this as different things. That is where you are wrong. All of these things are a symptom of a larger problem. He is just selfish. 

Also



> Kept saying I was selfish for not accepting him as he is, and that I am crazy to leave a 25-year relationship over lack of intimacy.


No one says you have to give up on the relationship, but you don't have to be married and pledge your fidelity. Think of it like eating (and yes it's just as important) if you pledged your life to only eat the food that he cooked would it be fair if he only gave you peanut butter and jelly sandwiches? How about if he didn't feed you at all? Seems reasonable to me at that point you say, look either you feed me or I am going to get food somewhere else. No offense.

Like you said it's not like he is not capable of feeding you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

lucy999 said:


> @LilMissSunshine I suppose you'd really have no way of knowing, but could @Blondilocks theory of your H having erectile dysfunction be correct? When's the last time you had sex? I still maintain that he's super miserable because he's morbidly obese at 100 lbs. overweight.
> 
> Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a time you did indeed initiate sex only to be criticized, he told you that you were doing it wrong? I'll repeat that he likes to move the goalposts.
> 
> And, again, it really is simple. If you can live with him without sex, stay. You know he won't change. You also know he's manipulative and abusive. I do find it sad you are seriously weighing your options of staying against being alone, though. I'd rather be alone. Here's the thing-how would you know if you'd meet someone better if you were still with your husband? Because you certainly don't strike me as the cheating type.


Exactly. Moving the goalposts. That's what manipulators do, so that you're always seeking to gain their approval or get what you want from them.

fwiw, my mom kicked my dad out for cheating, wouldn't let him come back, and happily lived alone for the next 40 years. Why I said you need to learn to be happy by YOURSELF, and not expect a man to do it. If sex is all you want, I guarantee men will line up around the block to give you sex. But you have to be ok alone and not be setting this up as a way to find a NEW man. It's not healthy to think that way.

And something I often tell people in dysfunctional marriages - once you leave, he will have a choice. Stay on this path and be alone the rest of his life, or listen to you and get his health taken care of. I see it all the time. Once the woman is fed up and leaves, THEN the man gets off his butt and starts doing all the things she asked for all along. But you staying there gives him NO REASON to change - you're still his maid, cook, caregiver and everything else. He has it made even if he is miserable.

You leaving just might be helping him.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

lucy999 said:


> @LilMissSunshine I suppose you'd really have no way of knowing, but could @Blondilocks theory of your H having erectile dysfunction be correct? When's the last time you had sex? I still maintain that he's super miserable because he's morbidly obese at 100 lbs. overweight.
> 
> Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a time you did indeed initiate sex only to be criticized, he told you that you were doing it wrong? I'll repeat that he likes to move the goalposts.
> 
> And, again, it really is simple. If you can live with him without sex, stay. You know he won't change. You also know he's manipulative and abusive. I do find it sad you are seriously weighing your options of staying against being alone, though. I'd rather be alone. Here's the thing-how would you know if you'd meet someone better if you were still with your husband? Because you certainly don't strike me as the cheating type. I'd rather take the 50/50 odds and roll the dice and take a chance.



It is certainly possible that he could have ED, it has been sooo long I wouldn't know. I do think the weight is a huge part of his issue. He keeps saying he wants to lose it but of course never does. I seriously think weight and depression are a big part of it.

Yes, I did try to initiate after a long, long time of not being together when he said he wanted to try and do better - it had been about 12 months. It was a little awkward for me approaching him, but I tried..........I never got far because he said I was 'acting funny' - which I probably was, it was somewhat awkward after 12+ months, and after that, he told me not to bother approaching him ever again, it was clear I wasn't into it - which wasn't it at all. Just trying to get past the awkwardness.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

turnera said:


> Try a new therapist. One who deals with codependency. And read the book Codependent No More.
> 
> Manipulation is when he wants one outcome so he reacts to your wants and needs by turning them around on you. You say you need affection; he says it's your own damn fault I won't be affectionate cos you made a big deal about it/didn't make it clear enough what you wanted/are being selfish.
> 
> ...


THank you - I think I understand. And YES, he has created a lot of doubt. I am reading through all of this - including other posts again. I need distance, I think that is my issue. I do fine while I am gone in thinking clearly.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

He's had many years of practice at manipulating you. And it works well. Stop listening to what he's saying -- because none of it benefits you -- and keep repeating "This no longer works for me". I would expect him to continue trying to manipulate you because your pattern until now has been to cave. Keep telling yourself you need to do what's best for *you*. 

He may or may not be interested in porn but for sure he's not interested in you. Who knows why he isn't but he definitely isn't and he has zero interest in working on that. He doesn't want a divorce but neither does he plan to work on the marriage. He just wants you to shut up and accept things as they are. If you don't want that then you need to stay on the path that leads to divorce. You know too well the other path. 

And, yes, it would be more helpful to have all of this in just one thread instead of many threads so posters can get a better idea of what your story involves.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

LilMissSunshine-

Remember too that the way he thinks is very warped. He’s got his own issues that he needs to deal with, things he’s running from. Instead of facing them he’s creating a distorted version of reality so that he can feel better about himself. There’s no way he can see himself clearly so there’s no way he can see the reality of the situation as it really is. It’s just not possible for him. He does know what he wants, to not get divorced, and he’s creating a narrative to protect that and at the same time protecting his fragile ego. 

You’re dealing with someone who’s not capable of facing the situation head on, remember that everytime you guys have your talks. It’s ok to feel sorry for him because it is a sad thing to witness but you can’t fix him, keep that first and foremost in your mind. Only he can do that. You don’t owe him your support either, remember that everytime you start to feel sorry or responsible for his state of mind. He’ll use that to keep you trapped. He’ll use every tool he can find. Men like this are like leeches and will use anything in their power to latch on.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

turnera said:


> To this day, 40 years of marriage, if I hear him driving up, I jump off the couch and pretend to be doing something. All because he convinced me I wasn't allowed to be 'selfish.'


Is this not also a form of manipulation to counter criticism via actions that do not tell the whole story?

It is not only the helpful lessons that transfer...

I think we are getting hung up on the word here... feeling guilty, insecurities, doubt, responsibilities for emotions, our wants projected as their wants, we all have these in some form ourselves and can equally counter defensively with them in some form. What becomes problematic is when these things are used repeatedly in an unhealthy manner to get our way.

In weakness come the easy path of making this someone else's problem... the disappointing thing in the relationship is that he may not show the strength to fix himself, yet he has plenty of energy to cast those on someone else. 

This is why feel diffusion of the tension with phrases that blame no one, show disagreement with the situation, and then distance to collect thoughts and focus on the immediate decisions that have to be made.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LilMissSunshine said:


> sokillme said:
> 
> 
> > Check his porn use and his phone.
> ...


Check his porn use. Check his phone because a lot of men use their phone for porn.

A lot of men who stop having sex with their wife so because they have basically become addicted to porn. I was married to a man who did this. He was good at hiding it. The only way I found out about his porn use was that I put keystroke monitoring software on his computer. The software not only recorded keystrokes but sent them and screen shots to a website on which I could see what he was doing. I was shocked and I found out. He was spending hours a day online with porn and on sites that people go to for 'virtual' relationships and sex. 

He hid it so well. He told me that the problem was ED. But apparently the problem really was that he got to the point that he did not want to have sex with a live human. 

With porn sites and other sites that men and women use for sexual relief, it does not matter if a person 100 lbs over weight because no one sees them. And the person does not have to deal with real life relationship issues. It's just so easy. 

Does your husband work a job away from home? Is he on a computer a lot of the time whether he's at home or at work?

Is he on his phone a lot of the time?

In studies that have been done about why some men do not want sex with their wives, the reason for this some 80% of the time is that the husband is angry at his wife. He withholds sex as a passive aggressing way of punishing her for real or imagined transgressions. They types of things your husband is saying to you fits this scenario to a T. He can act so very innocent and keep you squirming while he blames you for his choice. What you are telling us is so classic. And most of the men who do this are using porn because they are going get off sexually, just not with you to punish you.

How many hours a week do you and your husband spend together, just the two of you doing things that you both enjoy? (Please answer this, it's an important question.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> Is this not also a form of manipulation to counter criticism via actions that do not tell the whole story?


Absolutely. Why I'm in therapy and why my IC is working on my telling the truth. I learned early on in our marriage not to tell the truth or face consequences. It's taken me decades to be able to understand that I can and should (1) be honest and (2) and can survive him being irritated or judgmental.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> Check his porn use. Check his phone because a lot of men use their phone for porn.
> 
> A lot of men who stop having sex with their wife so because they have basically become addicted to porn. I was married to a man who did this. He was good at hiding it. The only way I found out about his porn use was that I put keystroke monitoring software on his computer. The software not only recorded keystrokes but sent them and screen shots to a website on which I could see what he was doing. I was shocked and I found out. He was spending hours a day online with porn and on sites that people go to for 'virtual' relationships and sex.
> 
> ...


]

His job is 100% computer, and he is 95% work from home, but i am not here since my work is outside of the house. SO I really don't know. I probably should investigate and see what I find out. And yes, he is angry at me, for sure - he has been clear he is angry because I kept asking him to be more initiating and telling him i needed affection. He has TOLD me with angry words and tone this is so, so absolutely he is angry. I didn't NAG, I was expressing a need, though I'm sure he saw it as nagging because he never did anything about it. I don't know about the porn part, though, is something I will investigate.

HOnestly, we do very little together anymore. He doesn't like getting outside because of his weight, we will go out to eat if it is somewhere close where he doesn't have to wait (HATES having to wait to get in somewhere), and an occasional movie, and we will watch a few shows together at night on TV. Other than that, we don't do that much - just no common interests anymore, sadly. And his attitude makes me not want to be around him, honestly.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Think about if it really matters if he's using porn. I think he is, but how will that change the situation? Let's say you find proof, confront, and demand it stop. How will that go? If by some miracle he gives up porn, I don't think that will magically solve the rest of your problems. It sounds like there are layers of problems in your relationship. 

One productive reason to look for porn is to make your own decision easier. Right now you're giving him the benefit of the doubt, but if you find porn and realize he's been using that instead of being with you, it will make it easier to break away.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LilMissSunshine said:


> His job is 100% computer, and he is 95% work from home, but i am not here since my work is outside of the house. SO I really don't know. I probably should investigate and see what I find out.


My ex who became addicted to porn worked at home on the computer. I was at work all day.

Where does your husband work on his computer? Is it in a space/room where he has a lot of privacy? 

Does he seem to work long hours, like even when you are home?




LilMissSunshine said:


> And yes, he is angry at me, for sure - he has been clear he is angry because I kept asking him to be more initiating and telling him i needed affection. He has TOLD me with angry words and tone this is so, so absolutely he is angry. I didn't NAG, I was expressing a need, though I'm sure he saw it as nagging because he never did anything about it. I don't know about the porn part, though, is something I will investigate.


In a healthy marriage, if one spouse loses their sex drive, they go see a doctor, therapist, etc to figure out what the problem is and work very hard to fix it. 

When a person is using sex as a passive aggressive way to punish their spouse, they do what your husband is doing. He turns it on you. He figured out that sex and intimacy are very important to you. So this gives him power. He can punish you by withholding the very thing that you need from him. 

When a person holds on to something negative like he is, it's because he serves his purpose. If he gave up his withholding sex and passive aggressive attempts to make you feel guilty, then he would lose what he perceives as his power to punish you.




LilMissSunshine said:


> HOnestly, we do very little together anymore. He doesn't like getting outside because of his weight, we will go out to eat if it is somewhere close where he doesn't have to wait (HATES having to wait to get in somewhere), and an occasional movie, and we will watch a few shows together at night on TV. Other than that, we don't do that much - just no common interests anymore, sadly. And his attitude makes me not want to be around him, honestly.


Doing things together, quality time, is a very important form of non-sexual intimacy. You are also being deprived of that which might heighten your need for sex as sex is the most obvious form of intimacy.

How can he say that 90% of your marriage is good when the two of you seem to not actually have much of a relationship?

It is up to him to fix is problems like weight loss, depression, etc. You can try to help and encourage him. But he needs to do the work. If he will not that is a conscious choice on his part. He is choosing to be exactly who he is right now. It's on him, not you.

Have you read the books "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs"? If you have not, I suggest that you do as they lay out how a healthy marriage works.

I don't recall if I've ever posted this link for you... https://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/350970-sex-starved-wife.html

Read at least the first few pages as they address marriages in which the husband withholds sex. It also has links to resources that might help you. One thing that a lot of people do not realize is that about the same number of men withhold sex in marriage as women do. Most women whose husbands withhold sex think that they are in a unique situation. After all we hear all the time that men are always ready to have sex. That's not true for a lot of men...


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> My ex who became addicted to porn worked at home on the computer. I was at work all day.
> 
> Where does your husband work on his computer? Is it in a space/room where he has a lot of privacy?
> 
> ...



((((((((((((((THANK YOU))))))))))))))))))))), Elegirl. I feel guilty that I don't try to spend more quality time with him. I used to, but lost interest the more this has went on. The further he pulls away with no sexual contact or affection combined with the anger/short-temper and depressive tendencies, the less time I want to do other things with him. BAD, I know, and I hung in there for a while - a long while. Like you said, it's up to HIM now.

He does have a lot of privacy during the day. Nobody there but him, and in his own home office with a door should someone be here. You may be on to something. 

I have to go and help my child with something but will look at your link later this evening.

THANK YOU for being so helpful. I could never tell anybody ALL of this in real life. I share SOME with a good female friend and my mother, but not about the sexual part - just the temper/anger. It's rather embarrassing. And yet it eats away at me. YOu guys are AWESOME. So grateful to all who have helped me here.:smile2:


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

EleGirl said:


> .....
> 
> In a healthy marriage, if one spouse loses their sex drive, they go see a doctor, therapist, etc to figure out what the problem is and work very hard to fix it.
> 
> ...


The above is so true. From the outside, your husband comes across as entitled, manipulative, selfish, belittling. Who made him king of the world? You? He uses his power to dominate and control. His unhealthy habits have multiplied over the years. His kids have confused foundation for what a marriage is. ED and porn use are likely. 

Your fear of making mistakes comes from years of tip-toeing around his anger. If he died tomorrow, how/what would you feel?


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

wilson said:


> Think about if it really matters if he's using porn. I think he is, but how will that change the situation? Let's say you find proof, confront, and demand it stop. How will that go? If by some miracle he gives up porn, I don't think that will magically solve the rest of your problems. It sounds like there are layers of problems in your relationship.
> 
> One productive reason to look for porn is to make your own decision easier. Right now you're giving him the benefit of the doubt, but if you find porn and realize he's been using that instead of being with you, it will make it easier to break away.


I couldn't agree more. What's the point of snooping now? It's not going to change anything.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

LilMissSunshine said:


> I know my other post indicated that I was soon to be having a discussion with him, BUT..............he out of the blue this morning told me he knows I have been unhappy because I have been distant. WELL, of course, there is no intimate relationship here and has been that way for a LONG time, so of course I am going to be more aloof, acting more like a roommate since that is what HE said he wanted.
> 
> Throwing this out there because i have finally gotten a shred of self-confidence - thanks to many of you on this board - to make me think what he said is totally FALSE. He demanded that I tell him once and for all if I 'accept' his terms of staying in this marriage as a platonic relationship, and all other variables being the same. Said i I said "no" that means I am SELFISH because I am giving up on the 90% of the relationship that is GOOD because 10% (having a sexual relationship) is absent. IS THAT SELFISH??? He goes on to say that there is NO person out there who is going to give me a relationship that will be 100% - and that I should be grateful that I have one that is 90%, not selfish and being willing to throw it away for the 10% that isn't there.
> 
> ...


I havent read through the thread yet, sorry I didnt see this over the weekend... you should know better by now than to pay attention to ANYTHING that comes out of this man's mouth. Master manipulator. Anything he says is designed to make you out to be crazy and to put all blame on your shoulders.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

LilMissSunshine said:


> YES, I tried to keep the embers burning, but he says my approach was all WRONG. He says all I ever did was hint around trying to get him to take action, when I should have been direct and taken action myself. He says it is ME that created that scenario, NOT him. IS THAT LOGICAL??? I somewhat think it makes sense and I am feeling bad that maybe I shouldn't have just hinted around, tried to make HIM interested, that I should have just went full force ahead and taken action myself if that is what he says caused him to eventually lose interest. THIS IS WHAT MY HESITATION IS. What I just explained. I NEEDED HIM to ACT interested and maybe wasn't as direct as I should have been, but I NEED to know that it was coming from the heart with him and it never felt that way when it was me taking action. So according to him, I have done nothing but TALK about keeping the embers burning and not DOING, and that was a major turn-off to him. Is that logical or him really trying to make me crazy?? I don't even know if this makes sense. BUT THIS is what is holding me back. Was I WRONG to not be more direct, even though I NEEDED it to be coming from him to feel like it was heart-felt?


It doesnt matter what you did or could have done or didnt do. HE DOESNT WANT YOU. Period. Stop making yourself crazy over this, because this is fact. Release yourself of this doubt.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

LilMissSunshine said:


> YES, I work. My income really just covers 'extras'..............I was resolute in my decision to leave until he and I start having discussions, and YES, he has me doubting my decision. I need to make sure I am not at fault, Lucy. If i can find peace with that, then even with his doing what he does I can say NO and walk away. but I need to know that what he says that I did to ruin this relationship is NOT really my fault or else I will not be able to go in good conscience. If I am at fault, I need to do whatever I can to fix it. Read what I wrote in one of my replies about WHAT SPECIFICALLY I am battling - the whole 'action vs. talk' thing................if he's right, I need to listen. If he's not, well............then I need to go.


You know what? FAULT doesnt matter. What matters is your well being. This man is abusive to you and to your kids. Please know he is full of crap. I cant wait for the day you finally get sick of his **** and tell him to F off.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Check his porn use and his phone.


Agree. I guarantee that he is a total porn hound.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@LilMissSunshine, 

One of the things I've noticed is that many of the posters have said something along the lines of "He is manipulative" or "He is manipulating you" and it seems there is some confusion about what is manipulative/controlling and what is normal, health self-interest, so may I give you some real-life examples so you can start to see the difference yourself?

*Example 1: *Your spouse prefers laundry folded a specific way

Manipulative/Controlling: "Good God! How do I get you do to it my way? Why do you keep doing it wrong after I've told you how to do it right?" 
"I told you I don't care how you fold it, but if you don't do it my way don't expect me to be nice to you."
"You think it's better that way? How could you be so stupid?"
"If you'd just fold them the right way, I wouldn't have to be yelling at you right now! It's your fault, not mine."

Healthy Self-interest: "Could I make a request? I know it's not how you usually fold 'em but would you mind folding my shirts like this? I find they're a little less wrinkly."
"You know, I would really like it if you folded 'em like this, but I'm just so grateful you take care of it!"
"Hey you know what? It's clothes--they can be folded many different ways that are just as good. Do 'em like you like--I trust ya!"


*Example 2:* Your spouse does not want to do something you want to do

Manipulative/Controlling: "Why are you nagging me about that again? I told you'd I'd do it but I just FORGOT! Am I not allowed to be human?"
"You are ridiculous for wanting to do that. No one would ever do that with you."
"Well a GOOD spouse would want to make their spouse happy, but you just go ahead and keep harping on me."
"I told you I would not do that, and if you don't leave me the heck alone I'm going to teach you the hard way!"

Healthy Self-interest: "Well...when we do this I'm not really comfortable. Could we so that instead?"
"When we do this, I think you forget about me and I feel invisible, so I'd like to request that you stay right by me when we do this."
"I am really not okay with this. I would be okay with that though."
"No thank you, I'd rather not."


*Example 3:* Your spouse wants to "talk"--you do not

Manipulative/Controlling: "What kind of selfish person won't talk with their own spouse?"
"There you go, always making us do what YOU want to do"
"Well now you can't say I wouldn't talk to you, because I tried to bring this up and you only thought of yourself."

Healthy Self-interest: "I hear what you're saying. Could we talk about this after dinner maybe?"
"Okay, well I'd like to request a time to talk. Can we schedule a time?"
"Man I'm disappointed you don't want to talk, but I respect that. Is there a time you would be willing to talk?"


*Example 4: *Your spouse is angry

Manipulative/Controlling: (Gives you the silent treatment for a week)
"YOU are the one who is screaming and raging! You're the one with anger issues, not me!" (after provoking you to anger)
"Of course I'm screaming at you! You spoke to me in that tone of voice that you KNOW hurts me!" (but screaming doesn't hurt you...)
"I'm not the only one who doesn't love you! No one loves you because you are so crazy!"
"You are such a <insert name calling here>. You did that on purpose because you're <insert belittling here>."
"You never, EVER offer to do the dishes with me!"

Healthy Self-interest: "I am not okay with what you did."
"When you do that, I feel angry and I think you're not acting very lovingly, so I'd like to request that you stop doing that."
"Hey when you did that, it really upset me and I felt hurt. Can we talk about it?"
"Your behavior has really hurt me. Let's see if we can find a resolution because that was not okay with me."
"I am not okay with crossing that boundary."
"I am upset that you left the table and didn't offer to do the dishes with me. Would you be willing to do them with me on the weekend?"


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I'll say it again.....

You aren't ready to go. Part of you doesn't want to leave and is looking for reasons to stick around. 

If this wasn't the case you wouldn't give a rat's ass what he thinks. 

My ex said the same thing, but when I was ready to go I didn't care.

Maybe you'll get the eventually. 

In the mean time own the fact that you aren't ready. It's not a crime.... everyone operates on their own timetable.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Personally, I don't think that you're selfish at all. I think that it's normal to want to have sex with your spouse, and really abnormal when a spouse doesn't want to do this. When you think of it, your spouse is the only person that you have sex with. You don't do that with just friends, and that's what differentiates your relationship with him from your relationship with everyone else. 

You can find someone who will give you 100%. It might take time (as I'm currently learning), but he's out there, and you'll eventually find one another.

I'm not sure about the rest of your story, but have you guys tried couples counselling or sex therapy?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I read one thing is also his attitude. 

That, combined with no affectionate behavior would be the last straw.

Only you know what's best for you. Either way is ok, but riding the fence will only increase the toxic environment component as time goes on.

Best,


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

Would it make a difference if he said he was not against general affection, just not the sexual part? Just getting back and will read through all of the new posts...............


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

LilMissSunshine said:


> Would it make a difference if he said he was not against general affection, just not the sexual part? Just getting back and will read through all of the new posts...............


You tell us, it's your life. Gently -- Why do you feel the need to ask us what is OK in your marriage? It's OK if you never have sex again if YOU are OK with that. I think you might try to figure out why you need to get approval for reasonable desires in your marriage. 

All of this still doesn't address how he treats you.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

sokillme said:


> You tell us, it's your life. Gently -- Why do you feel the need to ask us what is OK in your marriage? It's OK if you never have sex again if YOU are OK with that. I think you might try to figure out why you need to get approval for reasonable desires in your marriage.
> 
> All of this still doesn't address how he treats you.


Because honestly, I feel like I have no grasp on reality anymore - what's 'normal', what's NOT. No, I don't think I would be o.k. with that permanently, but maybe it's a stepping stone to getting back to something more? 

YES, you are right............still does not address how he treats me, you are right.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

Affaircare, THANK YOU for those examples...............reading those a couple of times and GREAT examples of the differences.................very well put on all of them!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LilMissSunshine said:


> Because honestly, I feel like I have no grasp on reality anymore - what's 'normal', what's NOT. No, I don't think I would be o.k. with that permanently, but maybe it's a stepping stone to getting back to something more?
> 
> YES, you are right............still does not address how he treats me, you are right.


If you accept that, why would you expect that you would then get more? You'd be giving HIM what HE wants - again - so he would then have no reason to change. And he won't.

Move out until the divorce is final and he moves out. Tell him he's welcome to ask you out once you're divorced. At that point, he'll have a choice - fix himself and become a decent partner or spend the rest of his life alone.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

LilMissSunshine said:


> Because honestly, I feel like I have no grasp on reality anymore - what's 'normal', what's NOT. No, I don't think I would be o.k. with that permanently, but maybe it's a stepping stone to getting back to something more?
> 
> YES, you are right............still does not address how he treats me, you are right.


I think this is a common thing for people who have relationships with narcissists or maybe just *******s. 

You should look up some books about that. 

What makes him 75% a good husband as you have described? He doesn't seem like it, he seems like he is 100% a good husband when you do what he wants and 0% when you don't.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

It would be a giant step back to where he's kept you for years. 

You know he's not going to change. 

Remember when I said it "seems" easier to stay than leave?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

LilMissSunshine said:


> Because honestly, I feel like I have no grasp on reality anymore - what's 'normal', what's NOT. *No, I don't think I would be o.k. with that permanently, but maybe it's a stepping stone to getting back to something more? *
> 
> YES, you are right............still does not address how he treats me, you are right.


This is the making of a covert contract. You're thinking if you play his game by his rules then eventually you'll get what you really want. He'll be thinking that you have finally accepted his terms and gotten with the program. 

You're doing the wishin' and hopin' and thinkin' and prayin' routine. How is that working for you?


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

LILMSunshine, you H has managed to brain wash you into a 'new normal.' Without intimacy a marriage is just at best a friendship and at worst roommates. The problem lies with him, not your attractiveness etc. With his added weight etc, I suspect he has real issues with erections and is too embarrassed or lazy to deal with them and wants you to accept the status quo. You know deep down this is not normal at all and do not want to settle for crumbs.

I think you have to remove yourself from him and your home. Go away for a short break alone to a quiet place, a retreat, to the forest, etc so you can really sit down and think about what it is YOU want.
Look at the pros and cons, decide in your heart what it is you can live with and whether you want more. Then make your decision and follow through. Start the ball rolling before he has a chance to manipulate you. He has managed to hold you hostage for a long time. It is time to break free.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

aine said:


> LILMSunshine, you H has managed to brain wash you into a 'new normal.' Without intimacy a marriage is just at best a friendship and at worst roommates. The problem lies with him, not your attractiveness etc. With his added weight etc, I suspect he has real issues with erections and is too embarrassed or lazy to deal with them and wants you to accept the status quo. You know deep down this is not normal at all and do not want to settle for crumbs.
> 
> I think you have to remove yourself from him and your home. Go away for a short break alone to a quiet place, a retreat, to the forest, etc so you can really sit down and think about what it is YOU want.
> Look at the pros and cons, decide in your heart what it is you can live with and whether you want more. Then make your decision and follow through. Start the ball rolling before he has a chance to manipulate you. He has managed to hold you hostage for a long time. It is time to break free.


But here's the thing. I cannot imagine _*anyone*_ wanting to be a friend with @LilMissSunshine's husband. Let alone married to him.


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## cma62 (Jul 31, 2010)

@LilMissSunshine
Ask yourself this, “ can I live the next 30 years being manipulated, emotionally abused( cuz this is happening) and with someone that is not going to put the effort into making things different for me.
Seems like he has an answer for everything and you are to blame for the reasons why he’s not willing to look at his own behaviour.
“New Normal”....ah yes I can relate. You tolerate a situation for so long it becomes your new normal, but to an outsider it would be a nightmare.
You deserve more ...and sometimes “ selfish” is merely you finally putting your own needs before his and saying to yourself....I can’t do this anymore....I matter, but obviously not enough for him to even make an effort for you.
Lack of sex is just a side effect of much bigger problems in your marriage.
He wants what he wants and manipulation is his way of getting it.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> But here's the thing. I cannot imagine _*anyone*_ wanting to be a friend with @LilMissSunshine's husband. Let alone married to him.


He could be utterly charming, only she gets the real him. Many people are like that.


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