# Are we headed for Reconciliation or Divorce?



## Mrs.S.

We've been married for four and a half years, no kids. My husband and I had a fairytale love story - he's 6 years younger than I am, he's very private and had never had a serious girlfriend. We took things very slowly and neither one of us expected to fall in love. We did and he was the sweetest, most genuine, devoted boyfriend and then husband I could ever have wanted. We were closer than I ever thought possible between two people. 

Over the past year or so we've been arguing over the same things, mostly household chores. I tend to get very overly dramatic and angry and in recent months I've gotten so frustrated that I've said that I don't know if we're in love anymore and maybe we should think about divorce. At first my husband said that he didn't want a divorce, that we needed to work on fixing things and that he loved me. After a few of these arguments and one long talk while on a hike, he told me one night that he never even considered divorce as possibility, but now he's wondering if it's something that he might want. I was shocked. I thought our arguments were just arguments. Everything else between us had seemed fine. We were trying to get pregnant and we had vacation plans, etc. We talked for a long time and the next day he told me that he felt better and that things were going to be fine. A couple of weeks later I went on a weekend trip to visit my dad/stepmother. I had a feeling of anxiety the whole time. I came back and that night he told me that he still was thinking about whether he wanted to be married to me anymore. Again, I was shocked.

The next night I caught him texting a girl from his office. He denied it twice, then came completely clean. They had been friends for about a year and they made a point to visit each other at work every day for the past few months. They started emailing on their personal emails and started talking about their personal lives. He started texting her that day. He said he had real feelings for her and wondered "what if things were different?" He said that he cared about her, but nothing - not even a lunch together or a flirtation - had ever happened. He broke down and apologized and said it escalated very quickly and he got caught up in the excitement and flattery of it. But he did feel like he had feelings for her and that he would "eventually get over it." 

The next day everything fell apart. That was the first week of May. Since then he's been very distant with me, back and forth on whether he wants to stay together, he says he doesn't believe in true love, I'm the only person he ever let into his life this closely and it backfired on him, he thinks about the future and doesn't see anything that he's happy about, he loves me and feels a lot of obligation over anything else, he's not even sure if he wants to be married at all anymore, etc., etc. He said that he's just angry all the time now and a lot of the times I'm part of that anger and he feels bad, but he is directing a lot of it at me. He said that the day we went hiking and I brought up divorce again, was the day that I "broke" him. He said he just felt defeated and hurt beyond explanation. 

We started MC right away, though I can't say that it's had much effect so far, but he does go willingly and he even went for an individual session once. Several times I've broken down and told him that if he wants to leave he can/should, that I would leave, that we can just end things if he knows that it's what he wants, etc. He says that he loves me and if he knew it was over, he would leave, so the fact that he hasn't should tell me something. I offered to try a separation and he said that 6 months living apart from someone is a long time and he doesn't want to do that.

He moved out of our bedroom a couple of weeks ago. I left him alone for about a week and last weekend he came to me and was super affectionate and loving and said that he wanted to try and work things out. The weekend was wonderful. Then on Monday he was distant and cold again. I had an endocrinologist appointment yesterday and he didn't even care about how it went. We talked again last night and he said that the weekend did seem like a nice break and at the time he meant what he said about wanting to work things out and be together. He said there are times that he thinks he can't live without me and that even talking about divorce is stupid and that of course we'll work things out and be together. But he said most times he's just unsure about if he'll ever have those feelings of intense love for me again and that he doesn't believe in having one person you're meant to be with and that he thinks being unmarried sounds really nice. 

This killed me, and again, I offered to end things. He said no, but that he feels like he's hanging on and waiting for himself to feel these things again for me, but it just isn't happening. We agreed to try and find stable ground in some manner. He agreed to try to take down some of the wall between us and to give this a chance. I agreed to stop dwelling on the girl from work (not even sure if this actually was an EA) and to corner him into long talks about us every night. He came back to bed, but didn't say a word to me, look at me or even say goodnight. I got upset and then he got mad at me all over again and said that he knew I couldn't keep my end of the deal up. 

I am devastated and heartbroken. I miss my best friend and my husband. Does this sound like I should hold onto hope or am I in denial of reality? Is this really all my fault and I killed our marriage?


----------



## hibiscus

No this is not your fault. It sounds like your husband seems confused as to what he wants anymore. Have you sorted out the arguments?


----------



## Mrs.S.

I am devastated. I'm pretty sure it's over between us. Last night he came home and said that I had 10 minutes to talk to him. I asked him again what happened between the weekend (when he said he wanted to be together and that things were going to be ok) and today (he is cold, indifferent, distant). He wouldn't answer and said he's sick of talking and the drama and he just doesn't know what he wants. He said he loves me but this just isn't working and that he does think that he's changed. He said again that he feels like our marriage was me forcing him to give everything up, manipulate him, force him to be something he's not, etc. He said he's finished letting me win and that if I wanted to see a change I would have to prove it to him. I said that's not love - making me earn your affection and our marriage. He said that's not what he means, but he's not making the first move. He came to bed in our room again and I started crying and he said, "don't do that," and rubbed my back. After that I fell asleep.

This morning I asked him to please tell me the truth about what's going on. He told me he's afraid of how crazy I'll be if he tells me anything. After about 10 minutes of insisting, he told me that he does still talk to the girl at work. He said that everything "inappropriate" has stopped - the personal emails, the texts, etc. - but they still talk in person at work almost every day and they email back and forth at work about funny office stories, he helps with her things (he used to be her manager and then they kept in touch when she moved to a different team last fall), etc. He said they're just friends and that nothing will ever happen and he has no intention of anything ever happening. He said that he has a right to have a friend and he's not giving that up because I tell him to. I said that this is not just a friend and it can never be just that. It has already crossed the line. I told him that even if their physical friendship is platonic, he told me that he had real feelings for her, he thought about what it would be like if he could date her, he thought about what would have happened if he had met her six years ago (before we were together) and that he is attracted to her. He said so what, nothing will ever happen and she's just a friend to him. I said that it's not ok to have a friend that he has feelings for, feelings he's supposed to have for me. I asked him if he still thinks about those things and is attracted to her (of course he is) and he shrugged and just said, "maybe."

I asked him point blank if he would cut off all contact with her and he said, "Honestly, I don't want to." I was floored. I said, "Then this marriage is over." He said "Fine. If that's what you want. I really don't care anymore. You've pushed me into not caring anymore." I told him to give me his wedding ring and i would put them away and he wouldn't give it to me. I asked if why he couldn't give something up that hurt me so much and was so damaging to our marriage. He said that it's not her that he can't give up - that it's the fact that I'm making him give something else up and he's sick of it. He said that he's not letting me tell him what to do anymore. I said that the fact that he still looks forward to her attention, needs it every day in some way, is still attracted to her and is willing to end our marriage over it, is NOT ok. Not to mention the fact that she KNOWS he feels this way about her and she still encourages it and keeps him hooked on her. She has told him that it's "bad timing for both of us" as far as pursuing something. How can he think that this is "just" a friendship? Am I irrational to reject that? I believe that nothing will happen and that in his mind it's all appropriate contact, but the fact that he NEEDS her in his life in some capacity is what is very wrong. And that he won't end his relationship with her simply because it's hurtful and damaging to our marriage, which should be his priority.

He left for work before I did and I said again (which I HATE hearing myself like this), "So you won't stop this for US? You really won't?" He said, "I'm seriously afraid of what crazy things you're going to do today. I swear to you, if you contact her in any way and embarrass me, it's immediately over. I will be gone and I will never speak to you again." I said, "Why would i do anything like that? If you end things with her, I have no reason to be crazy. If you won't end it, and it's over with us, I also have no reason to be crazy." He was like, "I don't believe you. You need to show me first before I stop talking to her." I said, "So again, I have to EARN your willingness to end it with her?" He said, "You have to show me first." And I said, "Don't you get it? It's not about what I want or getting my way. This isn't ok and it's hurtful more than I could ever tell you. And you don't care!" He said, "Most of the time, I don't care anymore, you're right." So we kind of had a stand-off at the door to the garage. He finally said, "Look, let's have a cease fire today. I know you're going to have a field day with the marriage counselor tomorrow morning, so we'll talk about it then. Can we agree to that?" I said, "Will you stop talking to her?" He said, "I won't talk to her today." I said, "But you will tomorrow?" He said, "We'll see how today goes. I mean it - I'm finished talking to you about this." I said (which also makes me cringe), "So what are we doing about us? Are we still working on this?" He said, "I don't know. Let's just cease fire like I said, ok?"

First of all - I know, I am thinking what you are thinking. I have turned PATHETIC. How many times and in how many ways does he have to tell me that he DOESN'T CARE and DOESN'T WANT me? The fact that he has lied to me again for a month and a half about not having contact with this girl, no matter how he justifies it in his mind, is horrendous. He is hung up - literally hateful towards me - about feeling like he's been my "b#$^h" for our entire marriage and he's adamant that I will never get my way again. He's put me in a position to "earn" his love and respect - and even a chance to work on our marriage is being held over my head, dependent upon my actions towards him and how he evaluates me.

Am I in denial? I just can't believe that this is my husband - with whom three months ago I had a loving, happy, future-oriented, committed marriage with never an inkling of a thought that any of this could happen and that he could be involved (even emotionally) with someone else.

Can a marriage come back from this? Should I insist he move out and end things? Or do I accept that he's been seriously injured in our marriage, though unbeknownst to me, and make allowances and agree to be trampled on for a while, until he feels he has gained some control and self-respect in this? Is that really love or am I too caught up in labeling things as "this is love" and "that's not love" and "this isn't marriage?" Am I really guilty of forcing him into everything just because it's what I want and need?

I really appreciate your perspectives. This is the hardest, most confusing thing I have ever been through. I'm afraid my marriage is over.


----------



## legiox

Sorry to hear. I didn't read everything, but the bits and pieces seems like he is trying to find a way out of the marriage and blaming you for everything. Sounds like my STBXW


----------



## Acoa

I'm sorry for what you are going through. 

I would say emphatically yes, he is in an EA with this coworker. He can't just "turn it off". Read the book "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass.

He will be dreaming if a land of unicorns and lollipops with her. You can't compete with a fantasy version of the other woman. 

I suggest asking a mod to move this to the coping with infidelity section. There you will get some sound advice on how to proceed. In short it means busting the fantasy and busting it hard. Those instructions don't belong in reconciliation however. You have to be willing for it not to work, so, it doesn't fit here.


----------



## Mrs.S.

I agree, Acoa, I can't compete with a fantasy that has never played out into reality. I've told him that. I said that with her, he gets to fill in all the blanks with everything he wants to be true. With me, there are no blanks to be filled in. So who is going to be more appealing? 

When I originally posted this thread, I honestly didn't think that this would be about infidelity. I really thought this was about my struggles with my husband's process of discernment about our marriage right now- reconciliation or divorce. Unfortunately, the girl at work has turned out to be more of a factor than I thought. 

I didn't hear from him all day yesterday, then he texted at 7:15 to say, "On my way home, see you soon." I said I was at dinner but I'd be home soon. I got home a while later and he asked about dinner and we chatted. Then he handed me the tv remote so I could watch what I wanted. We chatted lightly while watching tv for about an hour and then I said goodnight. He replied "goodnight babe." I honestly had no desire to be sweet or to be hugged or smiled at by him. The lying thing makes me angry and I frankly am trying to stop caring whether he talks to this girl or not. If he does and he won't stop, then he's the one who is ruining things and being a bad spouse, not me. At this point, he needs to pursue me and make amends for lying. I'm not freezing him out because I do love him and want to work it out, but it makes my stomach turn thinking about all the lies he's told me this past month. Even if they were just about his friendship with her and nothing more. He's addicted to her attention and he won't stop contact with her. Why should I be the one desperate for redemption? He's the one who should be pursuing my trust and forgiveness. 

He came to bed later and said goodnight to me again. I mumbled good night and I rolled over away from him. I felt him put his arm on my back and he kept it there for a while. I said nothing.

This morning we didn't really speak until we got the the counselor's office. I basically reiterated what I had told her yesterday about the past week and finding out that he was still talking to the girl at work. He was super defensive and said that he's sick of making sacrifices for me and he's not sacrificing one more thing. He said that it's not that she's his priority, but she's his friend and he's not giving her up for me. Every time the counselor asked him how he felt or for his reaction to my feelings, he just shrugged and said that he really doesn't care that much about how it makes me feel. She talked about not giving up on marriage and how it's worth it when you get to the other side of this and how this is the "meat" of marriage, the happy and easy stuff isn't the "meat" of what makes a marriage strong and real. He just shrugged. She finally asked him what he needs this week. He spat out, "Some peace and quiet." She asked me if I could put my fears aside this week and take a step back and do that. I looked directly at him and said, "If that's what you need, I will give that to you." He kind of laughed and said, "Yea, we'll see." He didn't even say thank you or that he appreciates that or anything. He just laughed and shot me down.

We got home and I was crying a little bit and he said to me, "You gonna make it? You sound like you're having a heart attack." I was like, "what?" He said, "I was asking you if you're ok." I said that I was fine. As I was leaving for work, he gave me a half hug with some pats/slaps on the back that he does when he doesn't really want to hug me. In infuriates me because I find it condescending and patronizing. Like he doesn't love me enough to really hug me so he'll just satisfy me with some swift pats on the back. He told me to have a good day and to try not to be so upset.

I really feel like I can't deny it anymore. He is completely checked out. His attachment and connection to the girl at work, however platonic he says it is, is more important than his connection with me. She's the one he goes to when he wants to talk or tell a funny story about work or vent about a meeting. It's no longer me. She's the one he thinks of first. He has told me and the counselor that he really doesn't care about my feelings. He's told both of us that he doesn't believe I'll ever change and that he's not willing to give me a chance. This whole situation isn't even just about my mistakes, but he's turned it into that. Why should I have any hope?

He hasn't mentioned moving out or divorce in a realistic sense. But how long should I let him have his cake and eat it, too, meanwhile I am going through the most excruciating suffering that I could ever imagine? He hasn't contributed anything to our marriage in a long time.

My birthday is two weeks from today. I go overseas on a trip with a girlfriend three weeks from today. I am thinking that if there's no progress and he can't take down his walls and put his hatred for me aside and make a commitment to us, I will ask him to move out by the time I get back from my trip. I want to give it one more chance and I will give him his peace and quiet and show him that I do care. But what more can I do after that? He is hurting me worse every day and he is less and less concerned with what it's doing to me. And he's nurturing a connection with another girl. What choice do I have?


----------



## Acoa

You have choices. For starters, stop being available for him. Just focus on taking care of yourself. You agreed to give him his space for a week. Do exactly that. It doesn't mean you have to accept his 'friendship' (I say EA) with this other woman. It just means you have to not nag him about it, or point it out, or question where he is and who he is talking to. 

But it doesn't mean you are okay with it. There is a process called a 180, you can read about it here:

The healing heart 180

Use it to take control. Take care of yourself. Work on yourself and detach from him. If you have a spare room, use it. If not, figure out who sleeps on the couch. Treat that discussion like a business agreement. Be cold and detached. 

If he starts arguing or name calling, just inform him that you think you have agreed to give him space, and not nag. But that doesn't mean you are okay with it. If he want's to explore his friendship, he is welcome to do that, you can talk more about the marriage in counseling next week. Until then, you are giving him the kind of space he needs to have his friendship. 

It's going to be hard, but it's probably not harder than biting your lip when he is calling you baby and putting his hand on your back while in your head you are screaming get away. 

I'm assuming you can't remain married to him if he keeps this friend. If that's not the case, rethink the 180. There are 2 logical outcomes of the 180. He wakes up, and you start the painful work of reconciling or Divorce. There is no middle ground.

It's not easy, and I don't envy the path ahead of you. Try to remember to stay strong and take care of yourself. Eat right and get plenty of exercise.


----------



## Mrs.S.

I'm reading the 180 stuff. It seems a little overkill, but it's pretty much in line with what everyone is suggesting anyway. I'm trying very hard to stop looking at this girl from work as someone who he desires intimacy (on any level) with and who he cares about as a potential romance, and instead as a tool for him to feel like he's reclaimed the control and independence he feels as if he's lost. It hurts beyond belief to know he has a "special" bond with someone other than me, but I have to try and put that aside, at least for the next week or so. I can't force him to stop doing anything. He needs to choose to come back.

Last week when I gave him "space" the first time, he did come to me every day for a connection in some fashion. And by the time last weekend rolled around, he wanted to be close and he told me things would work out and that we'd be ok. HOWEVER, Monday came and emotionally, he disappeared again. AND unknown to me at the time, he was still involved with the girl at work. Plus when the counselor asked him about how last weekend felt to him, he shrugged and said "It was ok." Basically, he discounted everything that we said we had felt together. So...part of me feels like that was unauthentic anyway, which leads me to wonder if there's anything to hope for at all.


----------



## Acoa

Mrs.S. said:


> Basically, he discounted everything that we said we had felt together. So...part of me feels like that was unauthentic anyway, which leads me to wonder if there's anything to hope for at all.


It's called affair fog. He will rewrite history. As long as she is in the picture it will have a hold of him. He would love for you to pretend all is well and let him keep his "friendship", that's called cake eating. He get's to have you as his wife and the co-worker as his work wife. How nice for him (<---sarcasm). 

The 180 is extreme. That's kind of the point. It forces him to make a choice as to what is more important. If he picks the co-worker, then you know. This can also push him to try and accelerate things with the co-worker, when that happens the land of unicorns and lollypops usually comes crashing down. If you read some of the stories in coping with infidelity, its forcing this choice that leads to resolution. There has never been a successful reconcile while the affair partner is still in the picture. And he can't possible say he turned off his feelings for her and they can be platonic friends. That is either the fog or a lie. Lucky for you, you don't need to know which. He just needs to end it. I'd go as far as saying he needs to find another job. 

Think shock and awe. He will accuse you of being crazy if you tell him to quit his job or move out. Remind him you are crazy in love with him, and you need him to do this so you can start healing the marriage. Isn't your marriage that important? I would hope it's more important than a job. Just saying.


----------



## Mrs.S.

I did mention quitting his job the other day. He said, "Well that's not gonna happen." I will try the 180 this week. Otherwise I'm thinking I need to tell him he's made his decision and he needs to leave.


----------



## Acoa

Sounds like you know what to do. I know it's harder to do than it is to theorize about it (I'm talking from experience). Try to stay strong.


----------



## Mrs.S.

It's past the time he would usually text me from work to say hi. I know it isn't productive, but all I can think about is that when he's there I'm the furthest thing from his mind and he's completely wrapped up in seeing her, talking to her and emailing with her. While I sit here in misery. I don't know if I have the strength to endure this for a week or more. I feel like he's getting carte blanche to run around and do whatever he wants, knowing I'm at home (figuratively, not always literally), maintaining that part of his life. All he has to do is throw me a few bones once in a while.

I wish that I knew for sure that this girl is a meaningless distraction for him and just a "tool" for him to use right now. And that he's not at work every day becoming more and more convinced that he has real feelings for her and deciding to escalate things even more. I wish I knew whether he thinks about her the whole time he's at home, anticipating his next connection with her. This is driving me crazy. Please help.


----------



## Acoa

If it was meaningless, why would he be fighting to keep his "friend"?


----------



## Mrs.S.

He says that it's just one more thing I'm asking him to give up and he's not doing it this time. He's told me that she's not a priority or someone who is important to him, but that his point is how I always need to win and make him do what I want. He says he's not letting me win this time. Could this be true or is this his way of further justifying his "friendship?"


----------



## Saffron

I haven't posted in a long time, but I still like to pop in once in a while to try and help. My husband had an EA/PA and we're in reconciliation.

I strongly urge you to move this to the "Coping with Infidelity" forum. Your husband is having an EA. I would consider checking for proof of a PA too before you deliver any ultimatums. Go into his email, check sent/deleted messages. Also, read his phone texts. Look for larger cash withdrawals (hotel rooms) anything that might be suspicious. People on the coping thread will have many more suggestions, but this will get you started. 

I don't mean to scare you, but it's a lot harder to save a marriage when you're not dealing with all the facts. Sounds like your husband is "gas lighting" you (basically the wayward makes you believe you're the one who's crazy for thinking he/she is having an affair). Your husband even used words like "crazy" to describe your valid concerns. Very valid concerns.

I never in a million years thought my husband capable of cheating on me. I trusted him 100%. I even wanted to believe him when he said it was only an EA. But "trickle truth" is common and your husband still doesn't admit he's in an EA. He's emotionally attached to the OW, so it's an EA and still considered infidelity. No friend comes before a spouse.

Unfortunately, you're having to discover all this slowly, so it's hard to let go of your desire to believe him. Sure there's still a chance it hasn't become physical, but my WS would be the first to say it's only a matter of time. 

On D-Day, when the OW's husband showed up to tell me of my husbands EA with his wife, it was a big slap in the face. I wanted to believe it wasn't true, but there was evidence that made me realize it was more than a harmless flirtation (and no flirtation is harmless by the way). I got "lucky" and bluffed my way to finding out it was a PA too. But not before my husband looked me in the eye and said he never kissed the OW and it wasn't as sordid as it sounds. Lied to my face for hours.

If you don't have access to your husband's email or phone, that's a big red flag and the coping thread will help you dig. I'm so sorry you're going through this, but you can't start to work on your marriage issues (that you're both 50/50 culpable for) until the EA is over. A marriage is between two adults, not three.

I'd also suggest _not_ letting your husband know of your posting here yet. Until you know how deeply he's involved with the OW, you might want to keep the forum as a resource for catching and/or ending an affair.

Good luck and stay strong. One of the worst parts of infidelity for me was feeling like a fool when the truth was revealed. I truly hope that you won't have to experience that pain too. 

Take care and go to the coping forum, no matter if it's an EA or PA, infidelity is the extreme betrayal and emotionally devastating. I'm not sure what hurt more, my husband's PA or the fact that he said, "I love you" to another woman.


FYI... OW means "other woman", WS means "wayward spouse". I think there's a directory on the coping forum, infidelity has it's own language.


----------



## Acoa

Good advice Saffron.

Mrs.S, my wife started hanging out with some old high school friends. I didn't like them much and almost never went with her. She started having Cybersex with a couple of them. 

I caught it before it went full blown PA, but it was still a rude awakening. With a transcript in my pocket I asked her if she ever had any inappropriate conversations with other men online. She looked me in the eye and said, "no, I would never do that to you." 

Seriously? She could look me in the face and lie like that. I was crushed. She is not that person. She was a good woman, but she wanted this secret. It was thrilling and exciting at the time. She feared I would leave her I I found out the truth, so she compartmentalized this lie to the point she really believed she did nothing wrong. 

When I confronted her with evidence she shifted to blaming me. It was my fault, she was bored, I wasn't paying enough attention to her. This is called blame shifting and it's a coping mechanism that cheaters use to keep their conscious clean. 

I had an advantage, my wife clearly wanted the marriage more than these other men. She dropped them cold turkey once exposed. Your husband is still toying with the idea that maybe life with this woman could be better. That is a fantasy that needs to be busted. 

Do as saffron says and start gathering evidence. The "coping" forum will give you insight on how. 

I would also ask your husband for a list of all these things that you made him give up. It must be very long if he is willing to keep this toxic friendship in place as a "last straw" (I bet his list is ****). You can let him have some of whatever bull he comes up with in compense for quitting his job and going NC (no contact) with this woman. This will make him feel trapped and he will come up with some other excuse. It will at least help you realize how unreasonable his attachment to this woman is.

Is this woman married or have a boyfriend? If so, figure out how to make contact. Share what you know, exposure on that end could end it all. Do not tell your husband you plan to do that. He will warn her and she will set up a defense to make you look crazy and vindictive. Don't give them that chance.

It sounds like you want to rebuild your marriage, the first step is to clear out the destructive influences(aka the other woman). Once the fantasy is busted, he should recommit to you. Then work begins on figuring out what was wrong in the relationship that weakened it to this point. Don't skip that work, or you leave the door open for something similar to happen again.


----------



## Mrs.S.

Saffron and Acoa - thanks for your posts this weekend, I am trying to be cautiously trusting. I honestly don't believe that it's turned physical. I do believe that he has dialed it back from the personal and outside of work contact. But I do believe that he can't bring himself to give up the attention completely. And I do believe there is a connection between them that he values and enjoys. I also believe that he has convinced himself that they both believe they are "just friends" since they never acted upon anything and that nothing will ever happen and that he is capable of just being friends. Is he still playing with fire? Yes. Is it an immediate danger? Not right now, but it does need to end.

Basically, we fought on and off all weekend. It's gotten to the point where it's exhausting. He won't budge with talking to her at work - he said he'd stop on Friday night because it's really not about her, it's about us and giving in to me yet again (according to him). Then on Saturday he was super rude to me, hot and cold, and again it came back to what's going on at work and he said he's not going to stop. Then he password locked his phone and changed his email password because he says that he's afraid I'm going to embarrass him and text or email her. I was furious (I don't even know his password, he's just logged in all the time on every device we have). He said he only emails with her at work about work stuff, but that pissed me off because she has her own supervisor, she doesn't need to ask him all of her "questions." Basically, she knows she can get attention from this married man and she's enjoying it and taking advantage of it. And he loves the attention, too. I told him to show me the emails and he said he deletes all "non-essential" emails, and I said that they couldn't possibly be just about work then, if he deleted them due to being non-essential. Then he started yelling about why don't I get that this isn't about her and that it's about how he feels like I'm just trying to get my way and make him into the bad guy again. He said that he refused to blink first and that maybe if I did, he'd give me "something" whether it was stopping all together or maybe just a little less, which I found completely condescending. I said that if he thinks that I have to EARN my way to him stopping, he's delusional. This was last night. He was provoking me all night and being rude and finally, things escalated so badly (verbally only) that we were just like, "what the hell are we doing?" We finally just went bed and fell asleep hugging each other. Things are at the point where it's doing more harm than good to be together and if doesn't stop, one of us needs to leave. I think we both know that.

So this morning he got up and left for work like two hours early. He had said yesterday that he wasn't going to work on anything at home and that he'd just go in early this morning. We didn't really talk, but he he came over and hugged and kissed me and said goodbye and I love you. I just said it back and said be careful driving.

I'm not sure what to expect today and tonight. However, I do know that we cannot keep arguing and treating each other like this. We're going to drive each other away for good. Someone said a while back, "Do you want to be right or do you want to save your marriage?" I want to do everything I can and be the best person I can be in order to save my marriage. It's not a guarantee, but I know that I have to show him my best self, even if I know it's not fair that he's using a girl with whom he hurt me very badly against me to make a point. Whether he still has feelings for her or not. I know he's not physically cheating on me at this point, so I have to give this my best shot before I walk away.


----------



## Acoa

What other points had he given into you on?


----------



## Mrs.S.

He says he gave up his friends for me when we first got married. This is NOT true. There is a lot of history behind that situation and there were other things going on in his life that caused him to distance himself from his college friends. But in his memory, this is my fault. Other than that, I am not really sure. He has a lot of resentment towards me for some misunderstandings early on. Both of our faults, but in his memory now, he was bullied by me. I don't think I'm blameless, but I don't think I'm to blame.


----------



## cdbaker

Time for the 180. Reach out to the OW's boyfriend or husband if she has one. It is absolutely an EA if not PA and nothing will get better until she is out of the picture, period.


----------



## Mrs.S.

I told him last night that he needs to clearly understand that he is choosing to end his marriage over a girl from work with whom, according to him, there is NO possibility or even desire to have a physical relationship and for whom he has absolutely no feelings. I told him that the situation and the decision just don't match up and I don't buy it. 

He said that if our marriage ends, it's because I refuse to show him that I care more about him than about winning. It's not about her. 

Which is true? A little bit of both?


----------



## cdbaker

A lot of times I think we all let an issue get overblown by a desire to "win" or be proven right. I'm a guy and I know I have been very guilty of that in the past. I also understand the argument of feeling like your spouse has made or pressured you into giving up a great many things from simple freedoms like wanting to spend a day fishing with friends as often as you'd like, or needing to be more tidy around the house, or knowing that you can't engage in even friendly flirting with the girl at work. Yep we are all aware that there are sacrifices in marriage.

From his angle, he's been pushed far enough and it just so happens that he has decided to draw the line in the sand with this female co-worker. The way he describes it, it is just coincidental that it is this friendship, but it could have just as easily been your banning him from drinking milk straight from the jug. To him, he figures he is making a stand against your controlling ways. So he thinks it is reasonable to ask you to show that you can pull back the reigns on your need to control, and then he'll offer to let the other woman go in order to show you that it wasn't about her.

He's utterly fooling himself into believing that the woman is irrelevant, that it is his rights that he is standing up for, both friendships and milk chugging alike! He has no intention of giving her up voluntarily. He believes, as a lot of people do (and I did myself with my own EA with a "work spouse") that relations with other people are only wrong if they reach a physical level of some kind. I used to say a lot of the same things to my wife about my female co-worker, and it didn't help either of us that my wife and I weren't being sexual at all either, which just made me more sexually pent up and her more worried.

This isn't about winning. I think another commenter suggested that if it isn't about her, and it really is purely about your trampling on his "rights" or controlling him, then he aught to be willing to prove it by coming to an agreement on some other things you can grant him rather than allowing the EA. Ya know, like letting him drink his milk from the jug, if that and the other woman really are equal.

Again, he is fooling himself and doesn't know it. He is demonizing you in order to feel ok about it. Most people aren't naturally bad people and no one likes to realize that they are doing indisputably bad things. So people will find ways to rationalize their behaviorm, either by demonizing the victim (you), victimizing themselves (H), or painting a picture of innocence (the EA), or combinations of those three. Because if you aren't a controlling/manipulative wife and his relationship really is perfectly innocent, then he isn't a bad guy at all right? It's fantasy.


----------



## Mrs.S.

That is the most logical way of thinking of both sides of this. Thank you for taking the time to think about this and type this out. There definitely are two sides to this issue. 

Am I blowing his flirtation and his excitement over the attention he gives and gets from this girl out of proportion? Is it really an EA if they have never talked about anything romantic or sent any inappropriate messages or indicated that they would ever take it further? If it only is flirting and joking over work email and in person at work and, even though he crossed the line with texting and weekend emailing, etc., he's realized that that part of it was wrong and he's pulled back the reins and stopped thinking of her like that? And maybe he is digging his heels in the sand about this because it's not actually anything that he's in danger of hurting our marriage with? Right after I found out about the texting and emails, he told me that he never had any intentions of turning it into something physical. Not even to hang out as friends or have lunch at work. He said that he figured he'd enjoy the attention for a while and it would fizzle out on its own. Yes, I think this is extremely selfish and immature, but can I afford to give him a little time and leeway with the bullying thing if he alleges that this is all it was to him?

I'm not convinced of all of this, but I'm willing to play devil's advocate to give what he says his side of the story is.


----------



## cdbaker

My situation seems similar. I had a very very good female friend. We openly called each other "work spouses" among others. It never got physical, we never talked about becoming physical or expressed emotional connection beyond friendship. That is the truth, I have no reason to lie. With that said, she and I talked about everything under the sun. Nothing was off limits. We talked about sex (with our spouses, past flings, fantasies), talked about money, talked about faith and politics, etc. We had lunch together probably 3-4 days a week. We sometimes did activities together outside of work, with or without our families. We'd text, talk on the phone, e-mail late at night, and even speak freely about each other to our spouses. As a wife, imagine how uncomfortable/painful it might be if your husband was always talking about how great/fun/exciting/intelligent/awesome this female friend of his is, with whom he spends 45+ hours a week?

A lot of people might say there is no red flags in there, maybe a few yellow or orange flags, but thats it. I figured I was doing nothing wrong because there was nothing physical, there wasn't any discussion of anything physical or romantic involving each other, and in my case there wasn't even much of a physical attraction to her. Some might not even call it an emotional affair. So I definitely thought my wife was wrong to be uncomfortable with it, that it was her problem that she needed to address and not mine, and that maybe it was mixed with guilt over our sex life being non-existant. I was essentially blaming her and feeling quite self-righteous about it. 

The reality is however that it was wrong, just not for the obvious reasons. I actively looked forward to talking to her every day or spending time with her. I preferred going to her for conversation, for advice, for friendship. I preferred activities with her like going for a run or bike ride, going to a sporting event, going out for drinks with others together, etc. No I never crossed the bright red lines, but I was substituting this other woman in a great many roles that I'm supposed to go to my wife for, and be there for my wife for. Further, there were things she and I discussed comfortably that were absolutely inappropriate for an opposite sex friend, like talking about my wife and I's sex life.

It can be a little scary in the sense that, even without the risk of romantic activity or even physical attraction, the friendship got to an unhealthy level. Even without those things, it helped to drive a wedge between us. This sort of behavior on my part, among other things like porn addiction, my undeserved sense of superiority/entitlement, and general immaturity, led to her being left weak towards the advances of other men, which led to her first affair. I don't think women typically seek out adulterous affairs, rather I think they become susceptible to the advances of men when their heart is left to wilt.

So here's the deal. He has already crossed a few lines here. He has already lied more than once about his communications and degree of friendship with this woman. He has admitted more than once to his attraction to her. He's making an indefensible stand to protect his relationship with this woman at the expense of his marriage. (this might be different if this was like the 9th person you've asked him to walk away from, otherwise no) These are big red flags. Even if you assume/hope that he hasn't become physical with her or they haven't discussed running away together or some variation of that, it is already unhealthy for your relationship and has gone too far. As far as I'm concerned, here are the possibilities:

1. The relationship has already gone physical.
2. The relationship is very close to becoming physical/romantic, or at least he thinks it is.
3. He is hopeful that it will become physical/romantic and just wants to keep going to see how it plays out.

In my case, I walked away from her, but it didn't happen until my wife had already moved on with a new guy twice her age (who is now serving a 3-year prison term for sexual exploitation of a minor under age 13) who was able to manipulate her in the weakened state I had left her in. It took her walking out for me to get my "wake-up call" and realize how wrong I was.


----------



## Acoa

If it's not an EA, if he really is on the up and up. Then he shouldn't be hiding anything. Email and texts should be an open book. If he thinks you are evil enough to sabotage his friendships by abusing your spousal privilege then why is he still married to you?

Platonic friendships with opposite sex friends are a vulnerability to marriage. If the marriage is otherwise good, and all parties involved are completely transparent with all communications and nothing is done in secret. Then, and only then, I would say it's "normal" and not an EA. 

As soon as things are covered up, or deleted or password protected and not revealed to the other spouse. Then to me, that's an affair (betrayal is probably a better term). In addition, if there are other problems in the marriage, then I think relationships that make the marriage vulnerable should be ended or put on hold until the marriage is repaired.

You are in a better position to know what occurred earlier in your marriage. But it's not uncommon for wayward spouses to 'rewrite' history to help them cope and 'feel better' about themselves. The friends they gave up voluntarily early in the marriage, become friends you made them give up. It's a thin veil tossed over the truth to make it look better. 

It's hard to fight. Just stick with the fact you both should be making choices that improve the marital relationship. If he isn't flirting with her, then there is nothing to hide. He shouldn't hide anything. No emails or texts should be deleted, and he should show both to you anytime you ask. No delays, no, I'll show you in the morning crap. You ask, he shows. If he can't do that, he is hiding something. If you ignore that to see 'how it goes', you are rugsweeping this thing and it will continue (and potentially get worse).


----------



## Mrs.S.

I didn't hear from him all day. He just texted me that he hopes I had a good day and that he has to work late on something, hopefully just half an hour. I asked if I should be worried. I know I shouldn't have asked that, but he went to work two hours early this morning, didn't connect with me all day and now he's working late to finish something?? Am I stupid for sitting here at home hoping things might change?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acoa

Mrs.S. said:


> Am I stupid for sitting here at home hoping things might change?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, not stupid, not at all. You are hopeful. You want the best of all the possibilities running through your head to be true. That was me about 1 yr before I discovered my wife's betrayal.

I assume you are not convinced enough that he is in an EA to take drastic measures. Therefore you need to stop pestering and sniping at him about it. If it is not an EA you are just building resentment, if it is, you are pushing it deeper underground and that will make it more difficult to monitor.

Stop asking him about it, but start some covert snooping. Learn as much as you can. Watch him unlock his phone, try to figure out his passwords. Hire a PI if you can afford it. At least get. Couple of voice activated recorders and record what goes on in his car. A lot of cheaters talk to affair partners during their commute. Review phone bills, credit card bills and keep records to reconcile with where your H says he is.

Most important, don't tip your hand and confront on circumstantial evidence. Keep it, look for a pattern and try to catch him red handed. If you can't, kudos, you will have proven to yourself the best can happen and your hope is true.

It can take a while, and you will find things that look odd and you will want to question. Don't. These things could be innocent, but if not are easily explained away with a lie. Don't bother confronting until you know. Then don't explain how you know. Just that you know and that now is the time to come clean or get out.

Good luck, I hope your hope is right and he is being good.


----------



## Mrs.S.

When he got home last night we talked a little bit about having that big argument on Sunday night. He apologized again and said that he felt bad that it got to that point. I apologized also and we agreed that we don't want to treat each other like that or hurt each other anymore. I said that even if our marriage does end, I don't want this to be the way we ended it or treated each other at the end. He agreed and said it's not how he wants me to feel either. I thought this was a good sign and then he said, "We're still friends, right? There's no reason why we can't live together and be friendly and cordial and respectful, whichever way this goes." Ugh. Punch in the gut again. I asked him that's where he sees this going - as us living cordially until we break things off. He said he didn't know. I asked him if he feels a little better since we diffused the tension that had been building all week and if he feels like he wants this to work now that we've put away some of our anger. He kind of said yes, but still said he doesn't know. I told him that we cannot have this tension and dynamic of provoking each other and escalating into arguments anymore. I said that if we can't stop it, we do need to separate ourselves because it isn't healthy and it's not what we want for each other. He agreed. I reminded him of how I felt about him and the girl at work (sorry, I can't refer to her as the OW or his EA yet) and asked if he could please make a choice that is good for our marriage. I said that if he still wants to be here and this is our rock bottom and he wants us to have any kind of chance together, would he please make a choice that is good for our marriage and stop talking to her so we can both be in this 100%. I asked him if he could give us that chance. He quietly said yes, he'd try. I just don't get it. I don't believe him (partly his fault, partly mine). I still feel like he said that just to get me off his back, which he won't deny.

At the counselor's this morning, we talked more about why we're stuck in this dynamic and pattern. She asked him to look at me and tell me honestly why he's where he is right now. She repeated that she does not think this is about the girl at work, but by putting up this wall, he is letting me believe that. He was thoughtful about it and he said that looking back on our marriage and other situations in his life, he feels like he never stood up for himself or did what fulfilled him, which isn't all my fault. He said he sees all of those things as weakness on his part and he can't stand feeling like that anymore. He said he's frustrated with where we are and the going back and forth and the questions and the arguments. He said that he just can't let himself back down right now and that he needs to feel like he's making choices that he wants to make that won't make him feel weak. He said he doesn't blame me, but that he just can't take the wall down and say ok to me right now because he needs to feel like he's back in control of his life.

It was very honest and it took him a while to get it out, so I know he wasn't just talking off the top of his head. I completely understand how he feels this way and I don't want him to live like that anymore, whether I agree with how it has manifested and his view of history or not. I told the counselor that I just feel like I'm constantly running into someone's fist. He's been demonizing me and discounting our bond with each other in order to justify his selfish behavior (not his feelings, but his behavior). I've tried so many approaches so many times and I just keep getting shut out and knocked back. I told her it's to the point where I feel worthless to him and to this marriage. Adding the girl at work, whose friendship he's now nurturing more than he is our friendship, I feel like absolutely nothing to him. I told her that this is not ok with me either. I would like to find a way for us both to feel valuable and in control and like we're in our marriage because we both choose to be. I want to feel like I'm his priority and I know he wants to feel like he's mine. But if he's not willing to meet me halfway, what do I do?

That's where I am right now. I talked about how all throughout our relationship, he's always been the one who pursued me. I never pursued him or asked him any questions or pushed him towards anything, including me. I know that we both need to feel that way again, but how do I help us get there if he's not willing?

Is the answer to really back off - for real this time - and trust that this work friendship is just a "choice" he feels he needs to have right now and let him "decide" to come back to me and our marriage? The counselor said that she believes that he does want to be in this still and that he does still feel a very strong connection with me or else at this point, we would have separated by now. Is he really just needing to feel like all of this is his choice? Is it really that simple? Proof from this morning would say that. But it's a very scary thing to turn the other way while there's still a girl in the picture and he's still pulling away from me. It seems the opposite of what we should be doing in this situation.

Does this make sense?


----------



## Mrs.S.

Last night he came home and he initiated the conversation. He told me that hearing what the counselor was saying about the way he is handling things was very hard for him and made him angry for a while, but he said that he realized that she was right. He said really thinking about his feelings and trying to convey them to someone else is something he has never had to do before, not about anything, and at times it makes him anxious and uncomfortable and wanting to reject any situation that forces him to do it. He apologized to me sincerely for how he's been treating me and for hurting me and for deflecting all of his anger and frustration, having to do with me or not, onto me because it's been like a relief to him to let it all go. He said it was wrong and he's very unhappy with himself that he's been hurting me. He said that he appreciates all of my patience and attempting to understand him and be there for him. He said that he really doesn't want to continue treating me this way and that he loves me very much.

I thanked him for opening up to me. I told him that I want him to regain his feeling of independence, strength and decision-making. I said that I understand and support that. I told him that I also cannot be in a marriage in which the decisions being made are hurtful to me and harmful to our marriage. I said that I'm not invalidating his feelings or his needs, but my bottom line is that this relationship with this girl is a decision that he made months ago that it was ok to be something that hurt me and poisoned our marriage. Unfortunately, it can never be anything safe and platonic. I told him that if this is the only thing that will make him feel ok about himself, I will accept that, but that we will need to step away from our marriage because it's not a loving marriage if he is willing to make choices that put it in danger.

He said that he doesn't know if he can stop talking to her. He said that he was willing to "put on the brakes" for now until he figures out why he needs it so much. I asked him if maybe he's so confused about it because he really does have feelings for her, but he doesn't want that to be the reason. And maybe that's why he's having a hard time reasoning it out in his head. He said he really doesn't think that's the case. He said they agreed that they needed to stop the personal stuff because there was no reason for it, but that he does find it exciting and he does look forward to talking to her. I told him that this is an emotional attachment to her, it's not just him taking a stand. It's probably a mixture of both, but this can only be harmful to me and to our marriage. I said that he's playing with fire and all it's going to take is one excuse for things to escalate again. They're constantly tempting themselves to cross the line again. And he can't close the door on that because he still needs to know that there's an opportunity, even if he knows he'll never take it.

He disagreed and said that he has chosen to make this his "hill to die on" and if he changes his mind, he knows he'll look back and see it as another time that he was weak and gave into me and he'll feel more bitterness and resentment and he doesn't want that to happen. I said that I told him that I would accept that and that if this needs to be his hill to die on, just know that I'm dying on it, too. I said that he should pack a bag in the morning and if this truly is something he needs, we are not truly living as husband and wife. I asked him not to come home if he chooses to continue this relationship and I asked him to honor that request for me. I can't keep hurting like this either.

For the rest of the night he was super sweet and complimented me and asked me to spend time with him that night. I asked him to sleep in the guest room and he told me that he would like to sleep in our bed with me. This morning he texted me when I got to work and said that he feels completely lost and confused. He said that he really thinks about this, he feels like he's going to look back and be angry about it. He said this feels, to him, that this is simply a repeat of other instances and he knows that's going to lead him to more resentment. He said he tries to understand this from both sides, but he just can't.

I replied and said that I'm sorry he feels like this. I said just remember, I love you and I'm on your side. I want you to be happy and to be ok.

We talked for a minute after that and he was leaving for work. I reiterated that I want what's best for him, but I can't compromise on the hurt that the whole situation with this girl has already caused me and the fact that he needs to make decisions that hurt me and our marriage. That is my bottom line. I want whatever he wants, but I'm not going to be in a marriage that dishonors our promise of loyalty, devotion and honesty. That being said, I do love him and stand behind him in his need to find himself and feel ok about himself.

Does this sound like a reasonable approach that is fair and honest for both of us? Or do you think I'm just being a selfish hardheaded control freak again?

Also - he has not committed to working on our marriage whole heartedly either. He's still talking in terms of "whatever happens with us" and "whether we're together for the next 60 years or not" and "however this ends." It might be another factor to consider if he was also committing to our marriage, but he hasn't.


----------



## ScrewedEverything

I think you have come around to a very rational and balanced position. I think its ultimately very healthy for you to accept his view of the relationship with the office girl, its really the only constructive approach. Worrying about whether there is more to it isn't going to help anything. I feel for you and find your whole situation to be very frustrating. From the outside looking in its like you have both come to a better understanding of each other, both want the same things for each other, and you seem to be on the threshhold of a better marriage but you can't cross over because of a silly thing. Had he chosen to draw his line in the sand and assert his sovereignty on any other issue - whether to buy a new car, or change careers or whatever - you would have gladly been able to defer to him and this would all have been resolved. But because he arbitrarily chose the one issue that, though supposedly minor for him, must be a dealbreaker for you, the whole marriage may blow up. Isn't there any other contentious issue that you could substitute?


----------



## Mrs.S.

We have talked more about it (which I am finished doing) at length. There was actually some good outcomes, though. He told me that he understands where I'm coming from, but that this really isn't about this girl. He said it's about him looking back in the future and knowing that he backed down again just because I said so. He said that this girl doesn't matter to him and that this is a work friendship that is platonic and minor to him. He said that he knows he handled things badly and let the situation get the best of him and that he did things he never should have done. And that he's corrected his behavior and maintains strict boundaries. He said that he doesn't have feelings for her and that he doesn't think of their friendship like that at all. He said that he doesn't initiate conversation with her anymore and they email a few times or IM through the interoffice IM thing and it's just about nonsense work stuff and work jokes.

Personally, I still find it infuriating that he would want to be friends with a girl who knows that this married man messed up and took things too far with her and that his marriage was damaged, yet she still insists on baiting him for attention day after day. He doesn't see this, but I do. He says that it's not like that at all and that they don't talk about anything personal anymore. I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle of what I imagine on a bad day and what he tells me. He said that he doesn't feel that their friendship takes anything away from me because I'm imagining it to be something that it's completely not. He said they are friends at work and that's all it will ever be.

Anyway, he also said that he does want things to work with us, maybe he hasn't said it, but it's true. This meant a lot to me, because honestly, he hasn't said it. Not once since the whole thing blew up two months ago. He said he feels as if he's had many opportunities to give up and quit on us and he hasn't taken any of them. He said that he's been trying, maybe not as he should have, but he's been trying and he doesn't think he should have to prove to me every day that he's still in this by adhering to any rules or ultimatums.

He said he's just asking for a breather from talking about this non-stop and that it doesn't mean he's trying to ignore me or buy himself more time with her, but he just wants a breather because these conversations take a lot out of him and he doesn't want to lash out at me and say something he shouldn't. He said that this really is about principle and that's all it's about, as petty as it might sound.

Even though the conversation was unpleasant (I definitely made my points, too. About the girl, about coupling that with the fact that he's never told me he wants things to work with us, about how secretive he has been and still is), I think that he did say things to me that he has never said and that I have really needed to know and hear. I told him that I'm not going to try to control him or give him ultimatums. I just ask that he let this thing with her die a natural death when it comes to it and not to instigate anything. He said ok. He also took the password lock off of his phone and he said he'd change his email password back to the one I know.

I definitely wouldn't say that things are better between us. We're both still kind of angry. I still have horrible visions of them together at work and of them joking and laughing all day long while he's still quite distant and terse with me. But maybe this is a baby step in the right direction? I do want to take the focus off of my feelings about her - he says in reality I have more feelings for her and care about her more than he does - and see what could happen between us. I'll try to give him the respect and control and the breather that he has been asking for. We'll see what happens. Even though he's been a huge jerk and a child about many things in the past few months, I do think that he has done his part to keep us together.

It's going to be very hard not to ask him about whether he's talked to her or seen her. And even harder because he lied to me multiple times about not talking to her. And even though I do believe this work "friendship" comes right up to and meets the boundaries that were crossed in the first place, he did immediately stop the personal contact, the personal topics of conversation, the fantasies of pursuing her and he has continued to stay in our marriage even though things got extremely low and he could have run right to her and probably had a PA if he had wanted to. I don't doubt she would have been willing. Even though he hasn't been an angel through all of this, he hasn't been a demon either.

Is this the track you all keep saying I should be on?


----------



## Acoa

Ultimately what we say is irrelevant. We can share some of our experiences. Let you know that you should trust your gut. And that at the end of the day. You have to live with the choices you make. We can support you in making the best of your choices. But it affects your life, not ours. It's your choice to make. 

I see 2 choices you can make (Keep pushing, or fold), each with either positive or negative outcomes:

Choice 1, positive outcome.
If his relationship with this girl is nothing, and you keep pushing, you will push him away. He has made it clear he is going to die on this hill. You don't seem to feel it's a divorceable offense. So, folding is a fine option. 

Choice 1 negative outcome
The other possibility is he is infatuated with her. And is only using this last hill metaphor to defend staying in contact. If you totally drop it, he can take the relationship underground and hopefully keep up appearances with you. The truth always comes out. If this is what is going on, you will eventually find out. Even if you stop spying. It may not be for years, but you will probably find out. 

Regarding choice 1 (aka "Folding") There are some things you can negotiate to try and minimize the negative outcome. I think you have made your feelings about her clear. Consider talking to him about setting some kind of boundary with her (any boundary is better than no boundary). You may want No Contact, it's obvious that won't fly with your husband. Out of love for you, and consideration of the marriage, what is he willing to do? My wife and I had to do some of this with her theater friends. Our rules are, no sex (duh), no kissing on the lip (peck on the cheek during a 'short' greeting or parting hug is allowed), short greeting or parting hug (Max 3 seconds, no wandering hands). No "I love you, or I miss you soo much" type messages. No flirting. Some of these are commons sense. But you would be surprised what some people are okay with. Once you both agree (which may take some negotiating), establish the penalty for crossing the boundary. Is it divorce? He moves out? Buys you diamonds? Whatever you want, the key is to have a consequence. So if a boundary is crossed, you both know what the outcome is. 

Choice 2, Negative Outcome
Keep pushing. (Not just nagging). Mandate he go NC with this girl or you will file for D. When he says no, you file. He resents the hell out of it and follow through on the divorce. The other possibility is he does it to stay married, but it really was nothing with this girl and he now resents you and is insufferable to live with.

Choice 2, positive outcome
You mandate that he go No Contact with this girl or you will D. He keeps blustering, so you file. This shocks him and he agrees with your demands to stay married. Eventually admits, if even only to himself that he was infatuated with her, and recommits to working on the marriage. (This is possible even if he wasn't infatuated with her, but the resentment outcome seems more likely given some of the other things you have posted about his attitude on this).

I don't recommend or condone any of the above possibilities. There are probably others too, but these are the obvious ones I see. You are the closest to this, what is your gut telling you?


----------

