# Ladies...If your arent having sex with your Husband...who is?



## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

Hi All! I have been lurking in the shadows for a bit but have finally decided to 'sign up' as I want to share something with you all.

I have been married just over 15 years...we have a fairly good marriage except that sex was never my wifes favorite hobby. We had sex maybe 8-10 times a year.

My wife could never understand me wanting sex more often - like once a week. So I'm afraid I used to get sexual 'relief' out side my marriage. By that I mean a massage parlour that gave proper massages but with the 'option' of a happy ending HJ at the end. So 'safe'.
I enjoyed both the relaxing massage but of course also the sexual relief. I used to go once, maybe twice a month. I'm not proud of it, but I was thirsty.

About six months ago something happened to my wife...she started going through the menopause. Whilst she hasn't turned into a tiger, we have gone from 8-10 times a year to once, sometimes twice a WEEK!!!! :smthumbup:
I am no longer 'thirsty' so have no need (or desire) to get my needs met elsewhere.
I feel so much emotionally closer to her...it feels wonderful! I am sure it has made me a 'better' husband and her a 'better' wife.

Why am I telling you this? Well, for two reasons....

1)sex really is VERY important in a marriage, it is the glue that bonds you.
2)ladies - sex is very important to a man. Not only is it a physical need but its how we bond. If you aren't having sex (and by 'sex' I mean anything, even BJ's or Hj's) with your husband, its only a matter of time before he does what I did....and gets it elsewhere.

I don't regret what I did....but I am SO happy and glad that I am getting what I need at home. I love my wife.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

> *I don't regret what I did*....but I am SO happy and glad that I am getting what I need at home. I love my wife.


Tell me, does your wife know you got these 'releases' at that massage parlor? I'm willing to bet that she doesn't. And, if that is the case, what would she say NOW? 

Sex isn't important ONLY to men. We women need that release as well. Getting a HJ or BJ from someone other than your wife is *CHEATING*. You could have masturbated instead. Instead of leaving your wife, you cheated on her. Don't try to blame her for it either. You had a choice: leave her because her drive was so low, deal with it (but masturbate to relieve the stress), or cheat... you chose the last one. 

Unbelievable.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

So you cheated and you don't regret it. 

Obviously your wife doesn't know.

No sex is "safe"...never know what's goin on with hands. I caught ringworm on my leg from a pedicurist and it was a classy joint.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

that_girl said:


> No sx is "safe"...never know what's goin on with hands.


That, plus the little problem of it being illegal. The OP could have ended up on one of those billboards and/or "who just got busted" flyers at local convencience stores. Probably would not have been good for the marriage.


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## wiigirl (Jun 14, 2012)

thunderstruck said:


> That, plus the little problem of it being illegal. The OP could have ended up on one of those billboards and/or "who just got busted" flyers at local convencience stores. Probably would not have been good for the marriage.












Lol....I always laugh at thoae billboards. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

askari said:


> Hi All! I have been lurking in the shadows for a bit but have finally decided to 'sign up' as I want to share something with you all.
> 
> I have been married just over 15 years...we have a fairly good marriage except that sex was never my wifes favorite hobby. We had sex maybe 8-10 times a year.
> 
> ...


Wow. You have a warning for wives: "If you don't have regular sex with your husband, he will cheat on you." You don't regret what you did because you felt justified in doing it. What motivation for wives to want to have meaningful sex with their husbands.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> Wow. You have a warning for wives: "If you don't have regular sx with your husband, he will cheat on you." You don't regret what you did because you felt justified in doing it. What motivation for wives to want to have meaningful sx with their husbands.


While I don't agree with the OP's parlor choice, he does have a point here. I've done Athol's stuff over the past few years. At 44, I'm in great shape, I dress better, I get better haircuts, I feel way more confident...so, all of a sudden, I get looks and interactions from the ladies. My W has noticed all of this, and it bugs the hell out of her. Still, I just get the duty stuff. I've never cheated, and don't plan to. 

But, the OP's warning is valid...if you aren't taking care of your H's basic needs, and he's walking out of the house every morning feeling like he's a loaded weapon...bad things may happen.


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

Ouch! 
I said I didn't regret it but I also said that I'm not proud of what I did. 
What happened happened...I didn't get busted and I didnt catch anything and no it was not illegal - massages with a happy ending are not against the law in ALL countries.

All I am saying is that sex is VERY important in a marriage...it brings you closer and it bonds you.
In general, read the threads/posts on here, sex is more important to men than to women.
Please note that I am NOT saying that it is unimportant to women. There are both men, but more women on here who have sexual 'issues'.

There is a saying - if you aren't having sex with your husband, then somebody else probably is. Lets get real here. It might not be right, it might not be moral or even fair, but it happens. Its life.

I was not, am not a ba$tard. I love my wife and I show it, but she was unable to overcome her sexual 'hang-ups'....

Suddenly she turned the corner and became sexual....it was like a new dawn. All I am doing is celebrating this change in my wife. I'm happy, she is happy and we are now so much closer than we used to be because we are connecting physically.

So I still stand by what I said initially - sex is very important in a marriage...and if you are not having it, sooner or later one of you (probably the man) will eventually wander. Fact.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

thunderstruck said:


> While I don't agree with the OP's parlor choice, he does have a point here. I've done Athol's stuff over the past few years. At 44, I'm in great shape, I dress better, I get better haircuts, I feel way more confident...so, all of a sudden, I get looks and interactions from the ladies. My W has noticed all of this, and it bugs the hell out of her. Still, I just get the duty stuff. I've never cheated, and don't plan to.
> 
> But, the OP's warning is valid...if you aren't taking care of your H's basic needs, and he's walking out of the house every morning feeling like he's a loaded weapon...bad things may happen.


I do not disagree that husbands have basic needs that need to be met. Wives also have needs, and they are more vulnerable when those needs are not met as well. However, there is NO justification or excuses for cheating. Men have sexual needs. Women have emotional needs. Does that mean we go out and have an affair when those needs are not being met?

If wives only have sx with their spouses to keep them from cheating, then the motivation is based upon fear. That is the ultimate "duty sx." 

Perhaps we should issue the same "warning" to husbands: "If you do not meet the emotional needs of your wife, she will get her needs met elsewhere by having an emotional affair."


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Tell me, does your wife know you got these 'releases' at that massage parlor? I'm willing to bet that she doesn't. And, if that is the case, what would she say NOW?
> 
> Sex isn't important ONLY to men. *We women need that release as well*. Getting a HJ or BJ from someone other than your wife is *CHEATING*. You could have masturbated instead. Instead of leaving your wife, you cheated on her. Don't try to blame her for it either. You had a choice: leave her because her drive was so low, deal with it (but masturbate to relieve the stress), or cheat... you chose the last one.
> 
> Unbelievable.


Life is not this simple - just leave your W. And, he said his W did not want sex, so she did not "need that release." 

A spouse that willfully ignores a partner's needs, whether intentionally or negligently (they refuse to understand) has abandoned the marriage. 8-10x per year is a sexless marriage, and I would not fault someone from addressing this in the way they see fit - if sex is not imortant to a spouse, and clearly it was not to his W, then it is not fair or unreasonable for the other spouse to seek it elsewhere. Getting an hj is the safest way, so if he left it there, it would be almost commendable. It is impressive that the OP could maintain his self-esteem in that relationship. 

While openness is obviously preferable, a W that has sex 8x per year for 10-15 years, is almost certainly someone that is not approachable about this. Again, if sex is not important enough for them to do, why would she care what he was doing.

That said, this is not how I think. I do not need sex (well, I do , but can handle it myself), I need the desire and passion, so a happy ending or craigslist/backpage date would not be what I was looking for. I also would opt for the openness path - i.e., tell her before I do anything that this is what I am doing, if you want to leave me, do so. And, this is not hypothetical, I am in an HD/LD relationship. I approached my W, explained what I was missing, demonstrated that it is not just sexual release but emotional fulfullment . . . and now things are changing (albeit slowly). I told her, I would never cheat without giving her fair warning that I wanted to be with someone else.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

thunderstruck said:


> But, the OP's warning is valid...if you aren't taking care of your H's basic needs, and he's walking out of the house every morning feeling like he's a loaded weapon...bad things may happen.


^^^This... is complete and utter BS in my opinion. If it happened to be the WIFE not getting HER needs fulfilled? I doubt there would be many emphasizing how important it is to "take care" of the wifes needs or else.... Either way.. wife or husband.. if they are NOT getting their needs fulfilled... they need to communicate that with their spouse. IF their spouse doesn't appear to "Give a damn" and the one not getting their "needs" fulfilled doesn't want to WORK on the relationship to help improve it.. then they should just leave. There is all this "Crap" in my opinion about how sex is soooo important to men and it's how they express love and yadi yadi yada... Well hate to burst your bubble guys but that is just hormones talking. Use your brains .. there are plenty of other ways to fullfill the need to feel desired, loved, and express this as well that are NON SEXUAL. Oh and plenty of WOMEN find SEX just as important in a relationship.. however the way alot of you talk.. you make it seem like that is ALL the relationship is about OR that's what it's MOSTLY about. There will be rough times sure... times without intimacy happen in ANY relationship... but in order for it to work and remain strong.. sometimes... or imo.. most times... it takes using your brain to make a relationship work. Now I get that it should take BOTH partners to put in an equal amount of effort.. but lets face it.. that's hardly the case now is it? So.. if your truly dedicated to the "one you love" sometimes it will feel like your doing all the work to keep things together. It may even take years for your SO to suddenly "get it and start working on it as well.. or it may never happen... if ya feel like it won't happen.. then just leave. There will be someone out there for you who WILL make an effort.. no need to CHEAT... that is despicable imo. Again.. all I've typed.. is just MY view on the matter.. and yeah I know many of you will have a different outlook on it but this is just how I FEEL and THINK about this situation.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

askari said:


> Ouch!
> I said I didn't regret it but I also said that I'm not proud of what I did.
> What happened happened...I didn't get busted and I didnt catch anything and no it was not illegal - massages with a happy ending are not against the law in ALL countries.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree that sx is very important in a marriage. So is trust and loyalty. Your wife may have deprived you sexually, yet you broke her trust in the most fundamental way. Your sx life is great now. What happens if your wife faces another hormonal "lull" or she becomes LD again? Will you have to visit the massage parlor again? Cheating is not the answer. There are other ways to work through sxual issues.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

I must have come off wrong in my post. I have never cheated, and don't plan on cheating. I agree...if you aren't getting your needs met, speak with your spouse, work with your spouse, and try to make things better. These are the things I'm doing. If it gets bad enough, I will divorce, but only after I have given it my best shot.

But...that's me and how I think. From all of the CWI threads here, it's obvious that all don't think this way.


momtwo4 said:


> Perhaps we should issue the same "warning" to husbands: "If you do not meet the emotional needs of your wife, she will get her needs met elsewhere by having an emotional affair."


We should. It's something that husbands need to know.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

The OP does indeed have a valid point, regardless of gender.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ffp20 (Nov 13, 2011)

Gaia said:


> ^^^This... is complete and utter BS in my opinion. If it happened to be the WIFE not getting HER needs fulfilled? I doubt there would be many emphasizing how important it is to "take care" of the wifes needs or else.... Either way.. wife or husband.. if they are NOT getting their needs fulfilled... they need to communicate that with their spouse. IF their spouse doesn't appear to "Give a damn" and the one not getting their "needs" fulfilled doesn't want to WORK on the relationship to help improve it.. then they should just leave. There is all this "Crap" in my opinion about how sex is soooo important to men and it's how they express love and yadi yadi yada... Well hate to burst your bubble guys but that is just hormones talking. Use your brains .. there are plenty of other ways to fullfill the need to feel desired, loved, and express this as well that are NON SEXUAL. Oh and plenty of WOMEN find SEX just as important in a relationship.. however the way alot of you talk.. you make it seem like that is ALL the relationship is about OR that's what it's MOSTLY about. There will be rough times sure... times without intimacy happen in ANY relationship... but in order for it to work and remain strong.. sometimes... or imo.. most times... it takes using your brain to make a relationship work. Now I get that it should take BOTH partners to put in an equal amount of effort.. but lets face it.. that's hardly the case now is it? So.. if your truly dedicated to the "one you love" sometimes it will feel like your doing all the work to keep things together. It may even take years for your SO to suddenly "get it and start working on it as well.. or it may never happen... if ya feel like it won't happen.. then just leave. There will be someone out there for you who WILL make an effort.. no need to CHEAT... that is despicable imo. Again.. all I've typed.. is just MY view on the matter.. and yeah I know many of you will have a different outlook on it but this is just how I FEEL and THINK about this situation.


Hey, dont discount the way a man feels. Are you a man? How do you really know whats important to them. My wife is like you: telling me how i should feel. THAT is the bs here.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

SprucHub said:


> Life is not this simple - just leave your W. And, he said his W did not want sex, so she did not "need that release."
> 
> A spouse that willfully ignores a partner's needs, whether intentionally or negligently (they refuse to understand) has abandoned the marriage. 8-10x per year is a sexless marriage, and I would not fault someone from addressing this in the way they see fit - if sex is not imortant to a spouse, and clearly it was not to his W, then it is not fair or unreasonable for the other spouse to seek it elsewhere. Getting an hj is the safest way, so if he left it there, it would be almost commendable. It is impressive that the OP could maintain his self-esteem in that relationship.
> 
> ...


Ok, I read that she didn't feel that need like he did. I understand that. My husband may not be as low drive as those lamented on this forum, but to me, right now, he is low drive. Considering we were at 3-5 times each week just a few months ago, and it dropped to once a week... yea, that's low for him. But I know WHY it is happening for him, and we are trying to get it fixed. I was told once, when were disconnected (not throwing it all out there now, it's in my signature and in various other posts around here), that if I don't take care of him, someone else will. That much, I know to be fact. The thing is, my husband and I agree that NEITHER of us would go out and have sex with anyone else while married. If we felt that was where it was headed, we would either actually work on trying to fix US or we would divorce. The point is, he cheated... he says he 'isn't proud of it' but '[doesn't] regret it'... But he never answered the question...does his wife know he cheated?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

nice of you to support the sex slavery industry

these women at the rub and tug joints (mostly Asian or Eastern European women) are taken the US with promises of a better life, have their passports taken and essentially indentured to tug on your weenie in massage parlors (and some will go further to get out of their debt faster as BJ's and other options = more $$) to pay their way out of the trap. Add the the fact that they also have to use that money to pay "rent" and facility use and supplies, etc.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

Further proof to me that people should have sex before marriage, to see how compatiable they are sexually.
Putting aside hormones levels that could crop up later in life, most people are going to know if they are LD or HD BEFORE they get married. 
Personally I'd rather know going in how often my partner wants to have sex.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

SprucHub said:


> Life is not this simple - just leave your W. And, he said his W did not want sex, so she did not "need that release."
> 
> A spouse that willfully ignores a partner's needs, whether intentionally or negligently (they refuse to understand) has abandoned the marriage. 8-10x per year is a sexless marriage, and I would not fault someone from addressing this in the way they see fit - if sex is not imortant to a spouse, and clearly it was not to his W, then it is not fair or unreasonable for the other spouse to seek it elsewhere. Getting an hj is the safest way, so if he left it there, it would be almost commendable. It is impressive that the OP could maintain his self-esteem in that relationship."
> 
> As I said before, there are healthier alternatives than cheating. It seems that these actions are justified because the sxual need is just so basic and so strong. Well, wives' emotional needs are strong as well. It would be "commendable" if he left his cheating at a hj??? What would be "commendable" is if he chose to avoid cheating in the first place.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

tacoma said:


> The OP does indeed have a valid point, regardless of gender.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh, I get the point... meet your spouse's needs (regardless of gender), or they may wander. My point is that cheating, no matter what the form, isn't the answer. It only brings more heartache, when it is brought to light.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

thunderstruck said:


> I must have come off wrong in my post. I have never cheated, and don't plan on cheating. I agree...if you aren't getting your needs met, speak with your spouse, work with your spouse, and try to make things better. These are the things I'm doing. If it gets bad enough, I will divorce, but only after I have given it my best shot.
> 
> But...that's me and how I think. From all of the CWI threads here, it's obvious that all don't think this way.
> 
> We should. It's something that husbands need to know.


The cheating aspect was directed at the OP's post and him thinking it's perfectly justified. The "needs getting fulfilled" was what i addressed with your post and yeah I get what you mean by the CWI.. I tend to try and stay OUT of that forum. I'm sure some people will think I'm happy go lucky and upbeat and I hardly have issues with my own relationship but that's far from the truth. I've dealt with many problems that others have dealt with here.. from financial, long distance, to emotional and sexual and I've worked through all without feeling the desire to cheat. Now.. I have felt the desire to leave on several occasions... but I would NEVER cheat.


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## WhereAmI (Nov 3, 2010)

It would be interesting if you were to learn she wasn't getting her emotional needs met, found that elsewhere, then received her sexual release from the man who took the time to make her feel special. It might not be right, it might not be moral or even fair, but it's life. It happens. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

ffp20 said:


> Hey, dont discount the way a man feels. Are you a man? How do you really know whats important to them. My wife is like you: telling me how i should feel. THAT is the bs here.


No, I agree that telling your spouse that he OR SHE should feel a certain way is wrong.

Gaia's point was that the man cheated on his wife, and he is ok with that. How is that a good thing???


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

ffp20 said:


> Hey, dont discount the way a man feels. Are you a man? How do you really know whats important to them. My wife is like you: telling me how i should feel. THAT is the bs here.


If you read my post I've said both genders.. not just man and not just women. The point is.. when a man says "Oh I have needs" and uses that for the REASON he cheated.. THAT is just a pathetic EXCUSE in my eyes... and Same goes for women who go on about how.. "I was lonely... he was distant... " That again is an EXCUSE. I've been lonely, my H has been distant, and I can honestly say that on several occasions he has indeed rejected my sexual advances and said he "needed a break" I'm very HD when not pregnant and yet I didn't go out and get it elsewhere.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Oh, I get the point... meet your spouse's needs (regardless of gender), or they may wander. My point is that cheating, no matter what the form, isn't the answer. It only brings more heartache, when it is brought to light.



Exactly. What bothers me the most is the justification for the cheating.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

ffp20 said:


> Hey, dont discount the way a man feels. Are you a man? How do you really know whats important to them. My wife is like you: telling me how i should feel. THAT is the bs here.


No one is telling you how you should feel. We all have feelings and strong emotions. However, we also have brains, and we can choose not to base our decisions on the urges and feelings that we have.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

Gaia said:


> ^^^This... is complete and utter BS in my opinion. If it happened to be the WIFE not getting HER needs fulfilled? I doubt there would be many emphasizing how important it is to "take care" of the wifes needs or else.... Either way.. wife or husband.. if they are NOT getting their needs fulfilled... they need to communicate that with their spouse. IF their spouse doesn't appear to "Give a damn" and the one not getting their "needs" fulfilled doesn't want to WORK on the relationship to help improve it.. then they should just leave. There is all this "Crap" in my opinion about how sex is soooo important to men and it's how they express love and yadi yadi yada... Well hate to burst your bubble guys but that is just hormones talking. Use your brains .. there are plenty of other ways to fullfill the need to feel desired, loved, and express this as well that are NON SEXUAL. Oh and plenty of WOMEN find SEX just as important in a relationship.. however the way alot of you talk.. you make it seem like that is ALL the relationship is about OR that's what it's MOSTLY about. There will be rough times sure... times without intimacy happen in ANY relationship... but in order for it to work and remain strong.. sometimes... or imo.. most times... it takes using your brain to make a relationship work. Now I get that it should take BOTH partners to put in an equal amount of effort.. but lets face it.. that's hardly the case now is it? So.. if your truly dedicated to the "one you love" sometimes it will feel like your doing all the work to keep things together. It may even take years for your SO to suddenly "get it and start working on it as well.. or it may never happen... if ya feel like it won't happen.. then just leave. There will be someone out there for you who WILL make an effort.. no need to CHEAT... that is despicable imo. Again.. all I've typed.. is just MY view on the matter.. and yeah I know many of you will have a different outlook on it but this is just how I FEEL and THINK about this situation.


I find this to be complete and utter BS (assuming that the let down spouse has openly communicated over a prolonged period that his or her needs are not being met). I do agree that the issue is gender neutral, but if a spouse has made clear that he/she is unwilling to meet the other spouse's needs, then the first spouse *has left* the marriage and abandoned his/her responsibilities and commitments. I see this as no different that cheating, except for the exposure to disease thing. While openness is the adult and preferable means of addressing this, I see no fault with the let down spouse not having to do the work of actively dissolving what the other spouse has abandoned. 

I do not think someone who is willfully or intentionally neglected needs to further explain the consequences of that neglect to his/her spouse. Again, this presupposes that the let down spouse has clearly made known that his/her needs are not met.

To reiterate - this is not the path I'd choose, but I would not blame someone for choosing it. 

By way of example, in my case my W is a SAHM. I work long hours and have a long commute. Our expenses are higher than her earning capacity, were she to return to work. So, if we D, there is no way I'd be able to take custody, would need to pay for a house, a car, child support, spousal support, health insurance, etc. So, if my W chose to consciously neglect me, despite me loving her wholeheartedly, I should D or at least tell her that I was going to have my needs met (so that she can claim the high ground in a D to all parties) and sacrifice my life to support her and see my kids less and pay for her?


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

Unbelievable that you come on here proud that you cheated on your wife several times. 

You need to be honest and tell her the truth. You betrayed your wife in the most horrible way. You live in a lie and are very untrustworthy.

Thank God I can trust my husband. He is my best friend, lover and a fabulous father. Never in a million years would he get a hand job from another woman. We are a very close couple and he tells me everything about his wants, desires, and needs. 

Would it be okay for your wife to get a special vagina massage and orgasm from a man at a massage parlor? Would it be okay if she paid for sex acts? By your actions, yes it would.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Ok, I read that she didn't feel that need like he did. I understand that. My husband may not be as low drive as those lamented on this forum, but to me, right now, he is low drive. Considering we were at 3-5 times each week just a few months ago, and it dropped to once a week... yea, that's low for him. But I know WHY it is happening for him, and we are trying to get it fixed. I was told once, when were disconnected (not throwing it all out there now, it's in my signature and in various other posts around here), that if I don't take care of him, someone else will. That much, I know to be fact. The thing is, my husband and I agree that NEITHER of us would go out and have sex with anyone else while married. If we felt that was where it was headed, we would either actually work on trying to fix US or we would divorce. The point is, he cheated... he says he 'isn't proud of it' but '[doesn't] regret it'... But he never answered the question...does his wife know he cheated?


Not to backtrack, but if there is a reason why a spouse cannot meet another spouse's needs, that is a horse of a different color. And, if the let down spouse is letting his/her spouse down, that is also a different situation. 

And to be fair, the facts presented are borderline unclear that the OP clearly communicated to his W that he was dissatisfied to the extent where she knew or, more likely, should have known that she was neglecting her marriage vows. My description presupposes that the W knew or should have known and that the OP clearly communicated with her.


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## As You Wish (Jun 5, 2012)

askari said:


> All I am saying is that sex is VERY important in a marriage...


So are trust and fidelity.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

So are you trying to justify cheating as being better then leaving Spruc? Sure a spouse will be let down... and sure sometimes one will have to work a hell of alot more then the other.. but if one feels they should not HAVE to put effort into the relationship after awhile of getting little to no results... then yes.. leaving is better then cheating in my eyes. And no you sure as hell don't have to sacrifice nor do you have to see your kids less often. There are plenty of legal ways to get joint custody with equal amount of time with the kids on both ends... or hell even where a father could get full custody if he wanted. Yes divorce is hard on the kids but clearly it happens as with many cases I'm sure you have already heard, seen, and read about. If one chooses to stay.. regardless of how "unfair" they feel they have been treated... then they chose to put more effort into said relationship.. even if the other partner isn't... thats my view point on it.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> Unbelievable that you come on here proud that you cheated on your wife several times.
> 
> You need to be honest and tell her the truth. You betrayed your wife in the most horrible way. You live in a lie and are very untrustworthy.
> 
> ...


I am defensive of the OP because I know, sort of, what he endured. Your statement contradicts his. You are your husband's lover, his best friend, someone he can communicate with. So, he would never cheat - of course, why would he. Picture instead if you were prudish and could not and would not talk about sex (and his needs, wants and desires), rejected his advances for years (literally), never complimented him, took his efforts for granted, made clear that any sex was pity/chore sex by telling him to hurry up and not kissing him, etc. All the while he was a "nice guy", doing more than his share of the work around the home, being respectful, making money, doing all that is asked.

You might say that you'd never do those things. THAT IS THE POINT, that is why your husband would not cheat and would be completely wrong in doing so.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

There are WAYS to INCREASE a spouses SD .. both medically and naturally.. whatever causes them to be LD can always be worked out via therapy, doc visits, or as stated... naturally. Sometimes it's a mental issue and sometimes it's hormonal imbalance.. either way there are plenty of ways one can go about helping their spouse's desire for sex to increase. If the HD doesn't want or feel the need to put in that effort.... then by all means.. leave ffs... don't cheat. However.. I feel... if you truly care about someone... whether they are LD or not... you will be more then willing to make sacrifices and compromises for that special someone regardless if they do for you or not.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Gaia said:


> There is all this "Crap" in my opinion about how sex is soooo important to men and it's how they express love and yadi yadi yada... Well hate to burst your bubble guys but that is just hormones talking. Use your brains .. there are plenty of other ways to fullfill the need to feel desired, loved, and express this as well that are NON SEXUAL.


I'm sorry Gaia, hormones 'talking' is not a trivial thing. Hormones directly affect brain chemistry in both men and women and hormones are responsible for the feeling of being in love in the first place. The differences in how this occurs in women vs. men is real.

We all have a tendency to use our own perceptions as a baseline of what's 'normal' for everyone else, but it's really a disaster when that happens in a relationship.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> I'm sorry Gaia, hormones 'talking' is not a trivial thing. Hormones directly affect brain chemistry in both men and women and hormones are responsible for the feeling of being in love in the first place. The differences in how this occurs in women vs. men is real.
> 
> We all have a tendency to use our own perceptions as a baseline of what's 'normal' for everyone else, but it's really a disaster when that happens in a relationship.


I'm well aware of how hormones effect the brain chemistry Ocotillo however I feel that people are perfectly capable of keeping these hormones under control by choice. As I said before.. When not pregnant I have a very high sex drive.. among other things however if I had "allowed" my hormones to effect my decisions... I'd no doubt be a serial cheater. I'm not however.. I CHOSE to remain loyal.. I CHOSE to satisfy my needs when it came to intimacy by doing things such as... self pleasuring for one. Oh and just to give you an idea of how crazy my hormones can be... I've been able to masturbate several times a day and have sex with SO three times in that same day... on a daily basis. When I've felt lonely and unwanted... I turned to gardening, reading a book, putting all my time and energy into tending to the kids.. before the kids... it was work and different hobbies.. occasionally talking to people, debating, discussing, ect but I've never strayed despite feeling lonely, unwanted, ect. I knew I had a choice and as I've stated.. on several occasions I felt the strong desire to leave.. however.. I CHOSE to stay.. therefore I CHOSE to put more effort into the relationship and work on it despite all the problems I've had to deal with. This includes MIL living with us as well as BIL, My own mother and family taking shots at my H, ect ect ect. I am well aware others think and feel differently.. however this is how I think and feel and I feel that if one chooses to stay.. then one should put in the effort, be willing to make sacrifices, ect regardless if it appears the spouse is doing so or not. I can honestly say that for awhile my spouse sure as hell didn't.. but like I said.. I chose to stay therefore I chose to put in the effort to keep us together.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Gaia said:


> There are WAYS to INCREASE a spouses SD .. both medically and naturally.. whatever causes them to be LD can always be worked out via therapy, doc visits, or as stated... naturally. Sometimes it's a mental issue and sometimes it's hormonal imbalance.. either way there are plenty of ways one can go about helping their spouse's desire for sex to increase. If the HD doesn't want or feel the need to put in that effort.... then by all means.. leave ffs... don't cheat. However.. I feel... if you truly care about someone... whether they are LD or not... you will be more then willing to make sacrifices and compromises for that special someone regardless if they do for you or not.


I disagree in a sense. There are ways to try to increase sex drive, but in the end, it does not matter how much work the HD spouse puts into it - the LD spouse needs to try as well. If the LD does not want to increase the SD, there is not much that can be done.

That does not ever justify or excuse cheating. But it does explain how some spouses find themselves in bad situations. Allowing your spouse to go out into the world without trying to meet their needs is sending them out more vulnerable to temptation. This goes both ways.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I disagree in a sense. There are ways to try to increase sex drive, but in the end, it does not matter how much work the HD spouse puts into it - the LD spouse needs to try as well. If the LD does not want to increase the SD, there is not much that can be done.
> 
> That does not ever justify or excuse cheating. But it does explain how some spouses find themselves in bad situations. Allowing your spouse to go out into the world without trying to meet their needs is sending them out more vulnerable to temptation. This goes both ways.



Oh I'm not saying the LD does NOT need to try... that is not the point I am trying to make. The LD spouse does indeed need to make an effort.. that I agree with.. however I am saying that the HD... if fed up with seeing no results and desperately needs to be satisfied.. would be better off leaving... rather then cheating if things can't be worked out.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> That does not ever justify or excuse cheating. But it does explain how some spouses find themselves in bad situations. Allowing your spouse to go out into the world without trying to meet their needs is sending them out more vulnerable to temptation. This goes both ways.


This is true.. but like I said.. it's also a choice of that HD partner to remain strong or sink to temptation... that is all choice imo.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Wow, there's a lot of talk on here about how cheating is wrong and about what the honorable thing to do would be. Here's the thing though....cheating happens. Statistically it happens A LOT!

Honestly, it would be very naive for one spouse to ignore the needs of the other spouse and expect that cheating wouldn't happen because it's wrong. very naive.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

I am sorry I just was in cwi the other day and saw a thread that said massage parlor. I would suggest you go to that thread and get some perspective. Also if you aren't initiating as a man who is. Sex is a great bonding tool. It sometimes can just be a band aid covering up a severed limb. Lack of sex should be an indication of a problem. It should be point of conversation. Again good sex in a happy marriage is a great thing. Good sex in a crappy marriage means nothing. It just is an opening for one of you to have an EA. Which will eventually kill the nookie.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Also, it's ironic that one of the signs of a cheating spouse is a sudden and dramatic change in libido. It's very possible that the OP is getting his due without even knowing it.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Totally.

Don't kill the nookie.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Wow, there's a lot of talk on here about how cheating is wrong and about what the honorable thing to do would be. Here's the thing though....cheating happens. Statistically it happens A LOT!
> 
> Honestly, it would be very naive for one spouse to ignore the needs of the other spouse and expect that cheating wouldn't happen because it's wrong. very naive.


Yeah it happens because said cheaters CHOOSE to cheat... thats my view on it.. and yeah one spouse ignoring the needs of the other is also another "it happens" thing.. however... committed relationships take work and.. "Commitment" in order to work. Yes it should be from both sides however it's not always that way.. and sometimes it takes one spouse longer to realize they need to step it up then the other.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Gaia said:


> I'm well aware of how hormones effect the brain chemistry


I'm happy to hear that, because most people aren't. Most people couldn't tell you how many separate and unique hormones are involved in something as routine as waking up from a night's sleep. (There are more than ten.)





Gaia said:


> Ocotillo however I feel that people are perfectly capable of keeping these hormones under control by choice.


If by this you mean that we can regulate certain behavior that is influenced by hormones, like the urge towards promiscuity, I wholeheartedly agree with you. 

But I'm not defending cheating here. 

As a man, I'm disagreeing with this statement:



Gaia said:


> .. there are plenty of other ways to fullfill the need to feel desired, loved, and express this as well that are NON SEXUAL.


With the exception of early stage infatuation most men do not feel romantic love in the absence of sex, because the hormones responsible for the feeling are simply not there in sufficient quantity in the absence of sex. 

This isn't to say that men can't love in other ways. We love our parents and siblings and even our dogs, for example. But marriage is (or at least should be) more than that.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Gaia said:


> This is true.. but like I said.. it's also a choice of that HD partner to remain strong or sink to temptation... that is all choice imo.


I agree. But (and there always seems to be a but), I see my job as a spouse to set my wife up to succeed. Part of that is trying to meet her needs so that she can be strong. She is human, with all the frailties that come with it. I don't know what straw will break the proverbial back. So anything I can do to help keep her strong is something I want to do.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I can't be lazy and rely solely on it being her choice to cheat. I need to work with her to create an enviroment (and a marriage) where cheating is less likely.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Also, it's ironic that one of the signs of a cheating spouse is a sudden and dramatic change in libido. It's very possible that the OP is getting his due without even knowing it.


He very well could be... which would be unfortunate as his marriage is not as "great" as he thought. Which I'm sure we can all see that it wasn't since he chose to get pleasure elsewhere in the first place.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Gaia said:


> Yeah it happens because said cheaters CHOOSE to cheat... thats my view on it.. and yeah one spouse ignoring the needs of the other is also another "it happens" thing.. however... committed relationships take work and.. "Commitment" in order to work. Yes it should be from both sides however it's not always that way.. and sometimes it takes one spouse longer to realize they need to step it up then the other.


I don't disagree with you on what's right and what's wrong. And yes, I agree that the blame rests solely with the cheater. I'm just saying that it's naive to think that even if you're in the right that it won't happen to you.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

I agree with Working, TAG, and Ocotillo. I was single for a long time, and I didn't sleep with married men, but oh, I could have.

It is VERY easy to spot a man who is not getting any attention at home. You wouldn't believe how easy. They might as well have a big red neon sign over their head, and they are easy picking. So while I didn't, and wouldn't, plenty of other women will.

Yes, yes, the man can choose not to, but most men are not made of stone. If you want a sound marriage, you better figure out how to have a mutually satisfying sex life.

While I don't condone the whole massage parlor/happy endings thing from the OP, I think that's what he was trying to say.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> This isn't to say that men can't love in other ways. We love our parents and siblings and even our dogs, for example. But marriage is (or at least should be) more than that.


^^^I do agree with that.. it should be.. and my point is that it does take work as nothing will ever come easily. Well not for most anyones.. some are lucky enough to have great relationships... but others... well it will take alot of work on both sides.


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## Aristotle (Apr 4, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> Perhaps we should issue the same "warning" to husbands: "If you do not meet the emotional needs of your wife, she will get her needs met elsewhere by having an emotional affair."


It's the first excuse used by every woman who has ever cheated, so I guess I have no problem with that warning.

I would never cheat, but if my wife decided to start rejecting me and not taking care of my needs, it would leave my mind open to possibly finding someone less selfish. Whether it be getting a seperation first, filing for divorce, or for guys who maybe do not have the same morals I have, flat out cheating. A woman can hate it all she wants, but the fact is, a lot of guys do cheat because they are not getting their needs met at home. READ THESE FORUMS. I absolutely cannot STAND cheaters, and some of them are pure cake eaters, but some seriously are abused and flat out neglected when it comes to getting their needs met. That excuse is an excuse for a reason, because like it or not, it does happen.

.... I think the problem with the OP now is, will he cake eat? He may be happy now, but in a few months, still getting it a few times a week, he is going to see that massage parlor on day 3, and just treat himself to a handjob. His moral compass is broke. Not only is his moral compass broke, but he never had any reprocussions for his bad decisions, because he never came clean. He has cheated. Nothing can "fix" that in your brain. Yes, your needs not being met is the reason you went off and cheated, but at that point, you no longer respect your wife or the relationship. Nothing will ever fix that. It's not a matter of "threatening' your wife that if she doesn't help with your needs you will go cheat, it should be more of, I will leave you. If you talk about your needs not being met and she still refuses you, it's time to pack your bags. If you cheat, you will always cheat.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I agree. But (and there always seems to be a but), I see my job as a spouse to set my wife up to succeed. Part of that is trying to meet her needs so that she can be strong. She is human, with all the frailties that come with it. I don't know what straw will break the proverbial back. So anything I can do to help keep her strong is something I want to do.
> 
> I guess what I am trying to say is that I can't be lazy and rely solely on it being her choice to cheat. I need to work with her to create an enviroment (and a marriage) where cheating is less likely.


Thats the point I've been making... that committed relationships take work and yes both will have to put in effort.. sure one may take longer then the other in this regard but it takes work just like anything else.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I don't disagree with you on what's right and what's wrong. And yes, I agree that the blame rests solely with the cheater. I'm just saying that it's naive to think that even if you're in the right that it won't happen to you.


In no way did I say it wouldn't happen.. I said that if one cheats it's by choice imo... not saying it doesn't happen.. am saying that cheating.. in my eyes is a CHOICE one makes. Like I said.. if I CHOSE to.. I could have been a serial cheater.. but I CHOSE to remain loyal and work on my relationship. I also never said that it isn't a possibility that my spouse DIDNT cheat WHILE we were in two diff states.. but if he did.. it was purely by choice imo.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

lamaga said:


> I agree with Working, TAG, and Ocotillo. I was single for a long time, and I didn't sleep with married men, but oh, I could have.
> 
> It is VERY easy to spot a man who is not getting any attention at home. You wouldn't believe how easy. They might as well have a big red neon sign over their head, and they are easy picking. So while I didn't, and wouldn't, plenty of other women will.
> 
> ...


Yeah you could have.. and yeah it's always easy to spot those who aren't getting their needs fullfilled however.. once more that brings me back to the choice aspect. You chose not to engage in that behavior.. which is very honorable of you imo and yes others may choose to engage in that behavior... but ultimately the man/woman who is taken and not satisfied.. is also responsible for their actions and regardless if they are satisfied or not.. the cheating is a choice made.. thats how i see it.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I agree. But (and there always seems to be a but), I see my job as a spouse to set my wife up to succeed. Part of that is trying to meet her needs so that she can be strong. She is human, with all the frailties that come with it. I don't know what straw will break the proverbial back. So anything I can do to help keep her strong is something I want to do.
> 
> I guess what I am trying to say is that I can't be lazy and rely solely on it being her choice to cheat. I need to work with her to create an enviroment (and a marriage) where cheating is less likely.


I agree with this. I do think it is vital that spouses work to meet each other's needs so that they can avoid temptation.

I think my main problem with the OPs original post is that he doesn't seem to think HE has done anything wrong by cheating. The blame falls more on his wife. He doesn't seem to need to accept responsibility for his actions. Basically, it is his wife's fault that he cheated. He is not "proud" of his decisions, but he doesn't "regret" them.


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## Sporto (Jun 18, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> I do not disagree that husbands have basic needs that need to be met. Wives also have needs, and they are more vulnerable when those needs are not met as well. However, there is NO justification or excuses for cheating. Men have sexual needs. Women have emotional needs. Does that mean we go out and have an affair when those needs are not being met?
> 
> If wives only have sx with their spouses to keep them from cheating, then the motivation is based upon fear. That is the ultimate "duty sx."
> 
> Perhaps we should issue the same "warning" to husbands: "If you do not meet the emotional needs of your wife, she will get her needs met elsewhere by having an emotional affair."



Yes if husband neglect their wives emotional needs they do go out and have EA!! Both Men and Women Cheat! Maybe you have not but the point is still valid. If you neglect your spouses needs they may very well cheat!


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Sporto said:


> Yes if husband neglect their wives emotional needs they do go out and have EA!! Both Men and Women Cheat! Maybe you have not but the point is still valid. If you neglect your spouses needs they may very well cheat!


And my point was that in neither instance is that okay! You still need to take responsibility for your actions even if your needs are not being met (whether emotional or physical).


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## Sangfroid de Sade (Jun 14, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> Perhaps we should issue the same "warning" to husbands: "If you do not meet the emotional needs of your wife, she will get her needs met elsewhere by having an emotional affair.


Spouses have _*duties*_ to each other. If your need is not being met you make the other participant of the game aware of said situation. Consistent/Persistent unmet needs and you have a duty to yourself to leave the game.


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## Sporto (Jun 18, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> And my point was that in neither instance is that okay! You still need to take responsibility for your actions even if your needs are not being met (whether emotional or physical).


Yes you do! But both spouses are at fault. Weather you are the spouse that cheated or the one who was cheated on.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

lamaga said:


> I agree with Working, TAG, and Ocotillo. I was single for a long time, and I didn't sleep with married men, but oh, I could have.
> 
> It is VERY easy to spot a man who is not getting any attention at home. You wouldn't believe how easy. They might as well have a big red neon sign over their head, and they are easy picking. So while I didn't, and wouldn't, plenty of other women will.
> 
> ...


I can see the point he was trying to make, and it is a valid concern. Yes, married men are more vulnerable when they don't get the sx then need from their wives. Insightful wives will realize this. However, the OP tries to use the sxual neglect to justify the fact that he cheated. He needs to take some personal responsibility here.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

The state of your marriage has NOTHING to do with your choice to cheat. Many, many people with horrible marriages, whether it be lack of sex for the guy or lack of emotional intimacy for her, NEVER cheat. Many people with wonderful marriages DO cheat.

Using the fact your wife won't put out for you as an excuse to cheat is just that, an excuse. It's NOT a reason. The REASON you cheated is because you're a basically selfish person who thinks he's entitled to have his cake and eat it too.

Something wrong in your marriage?? You have four choices.
1. Do nothing
2. Divorce
3. Cheat
4. Work on things together

Notice there are FOUR choices there, not just ONE. CHEATING is not the only option. You chose to cheat - that was YOUR CHOICE. Own it or go away. I have no patience for cheaters who justify their cheating like this.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Sporto said:


> Yes you do! But both spouses are at fault. Weather you are the spouse that cheated or the one who was cheated on.


I agree. And my problem with the OP's response is that there was no regret, "fault" or personal responsibility expressed there. The wife needs to take responsibility for neglecting him. And he needs to take responsibility for choosing to cheat.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Anyone who has the gall to tell me that my husband cheating was in any way MY fault had better stand WAAAAAAAAAAYYYYY back.

It's also interesting to note that, on his sexsearch and AFF profiles, he said he had a sexless marriage. Total lie. We were still having sex once a week or so throughout the whole sordid mess. not as often as either of us liked, but SEXLESS?!?!?!?!

So if men who use this as an excuse are honest with themselves, I think many will find that the cheating came first, and the decision to use a sexless marriage as the reason came afterwards.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Also, it's ironic that one of the signs of a cheating spouse is a sudden and dramatic change in libido. It's very possible that the OP is getting his due without even knowing it.


Well the explosion of libido during perimenopause and menopause is real for some women. My wife and I are going through it and she wants sex every single day. 

There are actually support groups for women on the internet and you should hear the things they say. Many of them end up apologizing to their husbands for years gone by and saying they had absolutely no idea that sexual desire could be that intense.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> I can see the point he was trying to make, and it is a valid concern. Yes, married men are more vulnerable when they don't get the sx then need from their wives. Insightful wives will realize this. However, the OP tries to use the sxual neglect to justify the fact that he cheated. He needs to take some personal responsibility here.


I'm curious, is there something wrong with your "e" key on your computer? Or do you think "sex" is a bad word?


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm curious, is there something wrong with your "e" key on your computer? Or do you think "sex" is a bad word?


Oh Working, relax. No, I don't think it's a bad word. I'm not THAT prudish. Honestly, I just wasn't sure what the proper etiquette is here.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm curious, is there something wrong with your "e" key on your computer? Or do you think "sex" is a bad word?


:lol::lol::rofl::rofl:


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm curious, is there something wrong with your "e" key on your computer? Or do you think "sex" is a bad word?


I think if you look closely at my posts, you would see that my "E" key is working just fine.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

lol


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> Oh Working, relax. No, I don't think it's a bad word. I'm not THAT prudish. Honestly, I just wasn't sure what the proper etiquette is here.


LOL considering which words are blocked out...ya never know when they will start blocking penis, vagina, etc....


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Like shy guy says... FREE THE C0CK!!!


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

I have seen others edit out the "e" in the word as well. But since this is a "sex" forum, I guess there's really no point...


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## Sporto (Jun 18, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Anyone who has the gall to tell me that my husband cheating was in any way MY fault had better stand WAAAAAAAAAAYYYYY back.
> 
> It's also interesting to note that, on his sexsearch and AFF profiles, he said he had a sexless marriage. Total lie. We were still having sex once a week or so throughout the whole sordid mess. not as often as either of us liked, but SEXLESS?!?!?!?!
> 
> So if men who use this as an excuse are honest with themselves, I think many will find that the cheating came first, and the decision to use a sexless marriage as the reason came afterwards.


There are instances that people are just cheats! They always was and always will be. We do not know you situation or why he cheated. I believe you were the best wife you could be and did nothing wrong and your marriage was great until he cheated.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Sporto said:


> I believe you were the best wife you could be and did nothing wrong and your marriage was great until he cheated.


If you mean me, no I wasn't. Our marriage sucked, big time.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *ocotillo said*: Well the explosion of libido during perimenopause and menopause is real for some women. My wife and I are going through it and she wants sex every single day.
> 
> There are actually support groups for women on the internet and you should hear the things they say. Many of them end up apologizing to their husbands for years gone by and saying they had absolutely no idea that sexual desire could be that intense


 Freaking Absoluetely !!! I've cried many tears over how it must have been for him --once a damn week for years on end. 

My only opinion is .. I really think Low drivers ought to marry Low drivers and High drivers marry high drivers...or at the very least Pleasers without an attitude . And don't suffer in silence like my husband (too much of a nice guy)..he could have had so much more, I always loved pleasure. 

A marriage is not worth being miserable over something as glorious & all consuming as SEX , Love making is heaven........noone gets marreid to play with themselves and go Solo 50% of the time... what the hell fun is that [email protected]#$% 

It IS too important...for some.. I wouldn't belittle those people, those hormones DO affect us in many many ways, I got a hell of a taste of that, and I get "MEN".... I'd leave a marrage over sex ...and I'm a woman. 

I wouldn't cheat (my mouth is too big for that)...but I would dump a spouse over it and I wouldn't feel bad about it either. Once a week would NEVER freaking NEVER be enough for me when I was HIGH drive. SO I can see why it isn't for many men, they would have been better to leave. 

Pretty damn happy my own husband understands me. He is hardly worrried I feel this strongly cause he is a Pleaser by nature and loves the act as much as I do. 

I feel soooooo bad for those lacking in this.... their choices are damn hard when kids enter the mix.


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

If my DH ever cheated the first thing I would think is "what did I not do that he needed done?" and "was there something he wanted and didn't tell me about that he didn't feel comfortable asking me for?". Those would both be on me if they had legit answers. But because those would be my first questions, I do all I can to make sure he'd never have a good answer for either. I can't say that because of this he'd never cheat but it's a pretty darn good start.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Freaking Absoluetely !!! I've cried many tears over how it must have been for him --once a damn week for years on end.
> 
> My only opinion is .. I really think Low drivers ought to marry Low drivers and High drivers marry high drivers...or at the very least Pleasers without an attitude . And don't suffer in silence like my husband (too much of a nice guy)..he could have had so much more, I always loved pleasure.
> 
> ...


Lol Simply.. at least you would leave rather then cheat. Now with the case of my H and I.. it's kinda the other way around... like I stated before.. he would state he needed a break lol .. of course when i first got pregnant my drive went down to 0.. then he started missing the 3 times a day sex.. lol


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

mina said:


> If my DH ever cheated the first thing I would think is "what did I not do that he needed done?" and "was there something he wanted and didn't tell me about that he didn't feel comfortable asking me for?". Those would both be on me if they had legit answers. But because those would be my first questions, I do all I can to make sure he'd never have a good answer for either. I can't say that because of this he'd never cheat but it's a pretty darn good start.


Well my hubby did cheat, and the first thing I thought was how angry I was at HIM for being a selfish [email protected] No woman should have to spend her life doing things to keep her husband from cheating on her. The things I do now are because I WANT to do them, because I want him to be happy. Period. not because I want him to be happy so he doesn't cheat. Frankly, I don't really care if he cheats again, intellectually - if he does, we're done, end of story. He knows this, so if he makes that choice again, it'll be a clean break.

I'm in this relationship for ME, I guess you could say, because it makes ME happy. Doing things for him, that make him happy, are returned to me. Ergo, I want him to be happy.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Almostrecovered said:


> nice of you to support the sex slavery industry
> 
> these women at the rub and tug joints (mostly Asian or Eastern European women) are taken the US with promises of a better life, have their passports taken and essentially indentured to tug on your weenie in massage parlors (and some will go further to get out of their debt faster as BJ's and other options = more $$) to pay their way out of the trap. Add the the fact that they also have to use that money to pay "rent" and facility use and supplies, etc.


Just when I think you couldn't get more awesome, you post this. You sir take my breath away with your consistent insight and bang on observations. 

Just about every one of those "establishments" are engaged in human trafficking and forced prostitution. Just because they do it with a smile on their face doesn't mean they are happy. In fact, they are forced to smile or face beatings, rape, families back home threatened, etc. It is a sick and dark underworld and these women and oftentimes children are never able to escape.

I won't comment on the cheating aspect but it does bother me greatly that you visited places like this. Perhaps you didn't know, as many do not. Hopefully armed with this information you can make better decisions. This isn't a victimless crime. It contributes to global slavery of women.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Holy Moly! Welcome back TRBE!


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Just about every one of those "establishments" are engaged in human trafficking and forced prostitution. Just because they do it with a smile on their face doesn't mean they are happy. In fact, they are forced to smile or face beatings, rape, families back home threatened, etc. It is a sick and dark underworld and these women and oftentimes children are never able to escape.


Really?
I`ve known more than my fair share of massage girls and they were all young American women supplementing their stripper jobs.

Not saying it doesn`t happen just saying it isn`t as prevalent as implied in this thread.
At least where I`m from.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

they are very prevalent in the NE at least- they are called AMP's by the Johns (asian massage parlors). They only advertise in weekly fliers and yellow pages or seedy internet places to try to keep a low profile. There was a big scandal almost 10 years ago in Philly where government workers were using their city credit cards at these places. Yet that same place popped up again after it was shut down, that particular place probably has been busted and reopened at least 10 times


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Hell there's even one that's a 2 minute drive from my house now that I grabbed and looked at a weekly flier in the mail, and I live in the conservative suburbs


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

tacoma said:


> Really?
> I`ve known more than my fair share of massage girls and they were all young American women supplementing their stripper jobs.
> 
> Not saying it doesn`t happen just saying it isn`t as prevalent as implied in this thread.
> At least where I`m from.


I guess that really depends on where you live. Here in Houston it is nearly 100% trafficked girls/women and so prevalent we have an entire task force set up to shut these places down. When raided, the front always looks fairly normal (where customers are serviced) the back however is little more than cots to sleep on, a 2 burner cook top and these women have had their passports stolen from them, their "fees" are $2 for ramen noodles, $10 for a box of tampons and every thing from tap water to using a towel is charged to them. The fee they have to pay off on average is $30,000. Houston (sadly) is #1 in the U.S for these kinds of places. You hear about these stories all the time and as one shuts down, another crops up. It is slavery Tacoma, flat out slavery. 
Sorry to threadjack, this just really hits close to home. OP, hopefully you and your wife are able to have a better future. Just please don't go back to your old ways. It is a terrible plight for these women and they never saw it coming.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Gaia said:


> Lol Simply.. at least you would leave rather then cheat. Now with the case of my H and I.. it's kinda the other way around... like I stated before.. he would state he needed a break lol .. of course when i first got pregnant my drive went down to 0.. then he started missing the 3 times a day sex.. lol


Glad you can give me a







. I ENVY YOU both to have experienced that rushing "3 times a day".... I never lived it and never will.  I allowed our time to pass, I never knew how much that would have meant to him back then. He doesn't blame me but I still hurt thinking about it sometimes. 


I think alot like Mina who is getting a bad wrap here... I feel we should always look to our hand in all things....closely examine if our actions or NON actions ..if they set up a downward path that slowly led to our husbands feeling like a dog chained in the desert thirsting for a drink of water. 

I believe I could forgive a man if I trampled and outright slaughted his needs, a habitual rejector and he fell into the arms of another. To say I'd be as innocent as a dove -if I treated my husband like that (knowing how he felt)..... I just wouldn't agree.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> Tell me, does your wife know you got these 'releases' at that massage parlor? I'm willing to bet that she doesn't. And, if that is the case, what would she say NOW?
> 
> Sex isn't important ONLY to men. We women need that release as well. Getting a HJ or BJ from someone other than your wife is *CHEATING*. You could have masturbated instead. Instead of leaving your wife, you cheated on her. Don't try to blame her for it either. You had a choice: leave her because her drive was so low, deal with it (but masturbate to relieve the stress), or cheat... you chose the last one.
> 
> Unbelievable.


You are right, Maricha75. 
He should have dumped her years ago.
Had I known how things really were with my marriage, I would have been gone long before she had the first guy's child.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

SprucHub said:


> I am defensive of the OP because I know, sort of, what he endured. Your statement contradicts his. You are your husband's lover, his best friend, someone he can communicate with. So, he would never cheat - of course, why would he. Picture instead if you were prudish and could not and would not talk about sex (and his needs, wants and desires), rejected his advances for years (literally), never complimented him, took his efforts for granted, made clear that any sex was pity/chore sex by telling him to hurry up and not kissing him, etc. All the while he was a "nice guy", doing more than his share of the work around the home, being respectful, making money, doing all that is asked.
> 
> You might say that you'd never do those things. THAT IS THE POINT, that is why your husband would not cheat and would be completely wrong in doing so.


I agree. I, in fact, will state it more bluntly: a person not meeting his or her spouse's sexual needs has no legitimate right to exclusivity or monogamy.

Sexual satisfaction and monogamy are linked to each other within marriage. The vast majority of people don't get married to be monks or nuns; we don't say "I will commit myself to you even if you completely ignore my sexual needs". The agreement is "I dedicate myself to you because I trust you will be a good steward of my body and provide for my fulfillment".

When a spouse (the wife in this case) renegs on her part of the deal, she forfeits the right to exclusivity. The standard in marriage is the sexual satisfaction of your spouse, not (as some would claim) merely refraining from sex outside the marriage. And, merely having some sex does not count. She cannot legitimately say "he does get some sex so he should be happy".

As I noted elsewhere, I had significant opportunities to cheat during my marriage. I am pragmatic and refused to cheat because of my own moral code and how I would feel if I did so. Towards the end of my marriage I wanted also to be able to look my daughter in the eye and say I tried my best. I absolutely did not consider how my ex would be hurt by my decision to cheat because, being the long-term refuser that she was, she had forfeited any right to express an opinion.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I love your posts DTO !


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Glad you can give me a
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I seriously doubt YOU of all people trampled anyones needs. Now sure the sex may not have been that often... for you two in the beginning but you did at least try to your best ability to satisfy his needs as I'm sure he did with you right? And yeah people don't get married to become celibate... I've no idea why people are bringing THAT up ... however.. going that route.. people don't get married soley for SEX either. There is more to a relationship then that imo. Now to some of you.. I know sex like... what... 8 times or less a year is very low by HD standards... I really think those of us falling into the HD category should try to see things from the LD's perspective as well... not just from our own. I just see to much bashing on LD's and claims that they simply refuse... some may refuse.. sure... but I highly doubt all LD people intend to hurt their HD partner or even realize how their HD partner feels since in most cases.. I'm sure the HD doesn't communicate it too well and vice versa. Like I've stated before.. relationships take work and communication between spouses, compromises, ect are all very important.. and if things seem like... "It's more work then it's worth.." Then I think leaving and moving on to someone more compatible is better then getting some on the side. The entire cheating thing is sneaky, sly, and outright disgraceful imo. There is no honesty in it whatsoever and it's very deceitful.. that's just the way i see it.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

I must have missed that part in the wedding vows. I promise to love , honor and cherish you. Forsaking all others unless you don't give me any then I can do what I want because our marriage is null and void.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

pidge70 said:


> I must have missed that part in the wedding vows. I promise to love , honor and cherish you. Forsaking all others unless you don't give me any then I can do what I want because our marriage is null and void.


I kind of see refusing to have sex with your spouse as violating the love and cherish parts. 

That being said, one spouse refusing to have sex does not give the other license to cheat. It does, however, provide a perfectly fine reason to file for divorce.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Divorce yes, screw around on no.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Cheating on your spouse because they didn't put out is like smacking your kid for smacking another kid. It seems logical on the surface, but when you examine it closely, it makes no sense. 

She doesn't put out, so she isn't 'holding up her end of the bargain' so to speak. He is unsatisfied, so he goes elsewhere, thinking he'll never get caught. Logical? Sure. Until he gets caught, or a disease, or the guilt eats him into his grave.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Why cheat? Why not go to your wife and tell her, Look, if you won't put out, we're done. Simple as that. WHY? And don't give me all that BS about how everything else is so wonderful in the marriage. If you aren't satisfied in the bedroom, you aren't satisfied, PERIOD. Sex is part of marriage, and if you don't want to have sex, you shouldn't be married, so why the heck do you want to stay with a woman who really doesn't even want to be married?


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

pidge70 said:


> I must have missed that part in the wedding vows. I promise to love , honor and cherish you. Forsaking all others unless you don't give me any then I can do what I want because our marriage is null and void.


This is not about not getting any, this is about one spouse willfully neglecting the other over a prolonged period, when the hurt spouse has clearly communicated that his/her needs are not being met. Not one rejection, not 10, not 100. Years of rejections and indifference. This is the equivalent of a spouse coming up to you and saying "you are undesireable and I do not care about your needs" over and over. It is breaking the "love, honor, cherish" promise a thousand times over. It is not equivalent to "not tonight honey" or turning them away when there is a pressing reason (illness, pregnancy, etc.). 

Sure, they still should not cheat. But, it may be the easiest option. And, when one spouse sh*ts on the other for years, he/she forfeits the right to any expectations (whether they know it or not). 

Many people seem to be projecting their story as to why their husband or wife cheated. Those on this board seem conscientious enough to have not been so cruel as to wantonly neglect their spouses. But, there are plenty of stories from both H and W who have lived with a spouse that consciously denied sex for no particular reason. 

I forget who, but one person's W did not have sex with him for 10 years.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

So, because cheating is the 'easiest' option, that excuses it ?!?! Sorry, not buying it.


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## Dunnoanymore (Jun 21, 2012)

That is awesome!!! What about when the husband doesn't want it? Where we went from 5 times a week to lucky 3 times a month. When you as a wife are willing to explore all parts and he still has no interest.. An affair? He doesn't have time. Sexting yes which is just as bad as cheating i believe. It makes me as a person feel like i am not good enough pretty enough to please him.. I just wish i had that feeling back that you are experiencing. Yes sex is a huge part in a relationship i believe also but he says thats all i think about.. Who would figure? Hope everything gets bettter and better for u..


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> So, because cheating is the 'easiest' option, that excuses it ?!?! Sorry, not buying it.


Hope,

No. Once someone breaks their vows cruelly, they have no right to expect anything from you. Moreover, you do not owe them anything. In a real sense, you cannot cheat on someone that has reneged on their marriage vows. 

Like I said, this would be over a prolonged period where divorce may leave the hurt party in an untenable situation financially or with respect to children. In that circumstance, where she upheld her portion of the bargain and was completely let down by her H, she has no obligation to get a D or walk. Once the bargain is broken, the aggreived need not uphold her portion.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

Dunnoanymore said:


> That is awesome!!! What about when the husband doesn't want it? Where we went from 5 times a week to lucky 3 times a month. When you as a wife are willing to explore all parts and he still has no interest.. An affair? He doesn't have time. Sexting yes which is just as bad as cheating i believe. It makes me as a person feel like i am not good enough pretty enough to please him.. I just wish i had that feeling back that you are experiencing. Yes sex is a huge part in a relationship i believe also but he says thats all i think about.. Who would figure? Hope everything gets bettter and better for u..


This is not a gender exclusive discussion and not even exclusive to sex. If a wife needs her husband to be supportive and he belittles her to no end, and she has communicated this time and time again, he has broken the bond and she is within her rights to seek that support elsewhere.

But what I am talking about is the extreme case, not a 3x per month case. It is wanton cruelty whether the denier understands he is being cruel or not.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I'm sorry, if your wife won't have sex with you and it goes on for years, then you have issues. It should NEVER get to that point. Wanton cruelty, sure, but the reaction to someone who is treating you cruelly and won't stop SHOULD be to get them out of your life. not stay with them but be just as cruel back.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

SprucHub said:


> Hope,
> 
> No. Once someone breaks their vows cruelly, they have no right to expect anything from you. Moreover, you do not owe them anything. In a real sense, you cannot cheat on someone that has reneged on their marriage vows.
> 
> Like I said, this would be over a prolonged period where divorce may leave the hurt party in an untenable situation financially or with respect to children. In that circumstance, where she upheld her portion of the bargain and was completely let down by her H, she has no obligation to get a D or walk. Once the bargain is broken, the aggreived need not uphold her portion.


So..... is it just for better and not for worse? Kind of seems like what your hinting at here.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

People give the "just get out" advice to abused women all the time. Great advice if the victim can take it. But not really that realistic statistically, since most just continue the cycle.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Oh, and in case it wasn't clear....my opinion is that withholding sex for years = abuse.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> People give the "just get out" advice to abused women all the time. Great advice if the victim can take it. But not really that realistic statistically, since most just continue the cycle.


Sadly this is true, but that doesn't make it right.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

I do wonder what the OP's wife's story would be.. if she were to post on TAM... after all.. we do only have HIS side of things.. and he never did say if they had actually communicated this with one another, if there was any counseling, ect... It seems more or less like..... "I didn't get it as often as I wanted sooo I got it on the side and pat myself on the back for it too"


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> I'm sorry, if your wife won't have sex with you and it goes on for years, then you have issues. It should NEVER get to that point. Wanton cruelty, sure, but the reaction to someone who is treating you cruelly and won't stop SHOULD be to get them out of your life. not stay with them but be just as cruel back.


Why would you think it is being just as cruel back? Why would the cruel person be hurt? Why do they have a right to be hurt? I am not suggesting staying to be cruel in retaliation. I am suggesting staying for your own benefit and having no obligation of fidelity or otherwise to the cruel spouse. Why if someone is cruel to you do you have to take a step that is not preferable? A divorce is a piece of paper, a marriage is a promise. When a spouse breaks that promise with no intention of keeping it in the future, the other spouse is not bound by it. Same as any other contract. 

My limited scenario is a W saying, "I know you have needs, I do not give a rats a** about them" to an H that is meeting his wife's needs. In that limited scenario, the H owes no more obligations to his W once it is clear that she meant what she said, regardless of her expectations. The H does not owe his W a divorce or a talk or anyting.


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## cent130130 (Nov 6, 2011)

askari said:


> Hi All! I have been lurking in the shadows for a bit but have finally decided to 'sign up' as I want to share something with you all.
> 
> I have been married just over 15 years...we have a fairly good marriage except that sex was never my wifes favorite hobby. We had sex maybe 8-10 times a year.
> 
> ...


You obviously struck a chord with the ladies! I read your post and couldn't agree more with the points you made at the end. I think you were wrong to seek out relief outside of your marriage, however, most of the ladies whose posts I read completely missed what I thought was a VERY significant point, that I believe very few women understand or desire to believe: men NEED physical intimacy to connect with our wives emotionally!! Those women who refuse to acknowledge this fact are just begging for a situation like you described in your marriage.

Think of it this way ladies: picture his relationship in reverse, i.e. he and his wife had meaningful conversation 8-10 times per year, but had sex daily. What would you do in that situation? I would wager that 100% of you would try to fill your need for meaningful conversation with your girlfriends. As many of you ladies pointed out, married men do not have a legitimate alternative to quench that desire. Deny it if you want, but if you're doing so in your own relationship, you're taking a serious gamble, and your husband (whether he is saying it or not) may be extremely frustrated.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I was just sitting here reading through this thread and had a thought that goes directly against the consensus in this forum (So for that reason alone I`m gonna post it 

Say you have a situation with a stay at SAHM with a 10 year old kid whom the husband absolutely adores.

This SAHM hasn`t given her husband an iota of intimacy since the child has been born, she`s actually quite disrespectful and hurtful to her husband on a regular basis and has been for a decade.
He`s spent the past 10 years trying everything he could to regain his wife's intimacy and respect, he`s manned up, chilled the thermostat, read all the books tried all the avenues of possibilities and yet...she`s still a cold hurtful *****.

His options are...

1: Remain in this farce of a marriage while he slowly dies inside for the rest of his life with his only happiness being his interaction with his child.

2: Divorce the witch, pay her alimony and child support for the vast majority of his remaining days while he lives a lifestyle an inch above poverty seeing his kid 4 days out of a month.

3: Get some on the side from a pro like the OP here so he can remain close to his child while at least enjoying the rewards of his hard work.

Logically, rationally, #3 is looking pretty damn good to me.

You`ll say his wife doesn`t deserve to be hurt like this.
I`ll call bull****, she`s been hurting him for a decade..**** her.

You`ll say he could get caught and his child would be harmed by the fallout.
I`ll call bull**** his child will be just as hurt by divorce.

Anyone got a rational UNBIASED argument against my proposition?

Edit:

I thought of a fourth option after posting 

4: Remain celibate living with satan herself

I didn`t think of it before because it`s no option as far as I`m concerned but it might be for others so here it is.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Hey, Tac, I'm with you, but I frequently go against the consensus here as well.

Yes, cheating is horrible, but not all cheating is inexcusable.

I'll meet you down at the firing squad.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

SprucHub said:


> Why would you think it is being just as cruel back? Why would the cruel person be hurt? Why do they have a right to be hurt? I am not suggesting staying to be cruel in retaliation. I am suggesting staying for your own benefit and having no obligation of fidelity or otherwise to the cruel spouse. Why if someone is cruel to you do you have to take a step that is not preferable? A divorce is a piece of paper, a marriage is a promise. When a spouse breaks that promise with no intention of keeping it in the future, the other spouse is not bound by it. Same as any other contract.
> 
> My limited scenario is a W saying, "I know you have needs, I do not give a rats a** about them" to an H that is meeting his wife's needs. In that limited scenario, the H owes no more obligations to his W once it is clear that she meant what she said, regardless of her expectations. The H does not owe his W a divorce or a talk or anyting.


To each there own, but I don't like to live my life without honesty and integrity. If I made a promise to my wife, and in my mind she broke it, I am going to be honest and up front and let her know that I think the vows are no longer binding. Sneeking around and lying is not how I would live my life.

Saying that your spouse was cruel first does not give you permission to be cruel back. I don't let my four year old use it as an excuse, and I certainly can't use it as an excuse for my actions.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> To each there own, but I don't like to live my life without honesty and integrity. If I made a promise to my wife, and in my mind she broke it, I am going to be honest and up front and let her know that I think the vows are no longer binding. Sneeking around and lying is not how I would live my life.
> 
> Saying that your spouse was cruel first does not give you permission to be cruel back. I don't let my four year old use it as an excuse, and I certainly can't use it as an excuse for my actions.


:iagree: Amen!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

tacoma said:


> I was just sitting here reading through this thread and had a thought that goes directly against the consensus in this forum (So for that reason alone I`m gonna post it
> 
> Say you have a situation with a stay at SAHM with a 10 year old kid whom the husband absolutely adores.
> 
> ...


Just off the top of my head:

1. It’s illegal. His wife finds out, and she really rakes him over the coals on support and seeing his kids, plus embarrasses him in front of everyone.

2. He has to look himself in the mirror. He allows her actions to control the type of man he wants to be. Because of her, he decides that honest is merely convenient. 

3. Hiring a pro is not going to stop him from dying inside. Instead, he is a pathetic guy whose wife can’t stand him and can only get some pathetic hand action if he pays for it. Nothing says winner like having to pay for sex. Not sure I see that as a real uplift for the spirit.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Another option, tacoma, would be to do what my ex did. Skip out and accrue $65,000 in child support debt, acting like a teenager.

Wait. He cheated first too. So scrap that one.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Well, TAG, I think #3(a) is finding a cordial woman who is also trapped in a similar situation for mutual consolation.

I believe you'll find some historical collaboration in, oh, say, the relationship of Jawaharlal Nehru and Lady Mountbatten. Or many other precedents.

No, it's not good, it's not what anyone wants, but it sometimes happens because it is far from the worst choice.

Ready to give me my cigarette yet? I'm lined up against the wall...


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

lamaga said:


> Hey, Tac, I'm with you, but I frequently go against the consensus here as well.
> 
> Yes, cheating is horrible, but not all cheating is inexcusable.
> 
> I'll meet you down at the firing squad.


I`ll bring the blindfolds.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

tacoma said:


> I was just sitting here reading through this thread and had a thought that goes directly against the consensus in this forum (So for that reason alone I`m gonna post it
> 
> Say you have a situation with a stay at SAHM with a 10 year old kid whom the husband absolutely adores.
> 
> ...


Tacoma... think this in reverse as well.. would you still state the same if it was a man being this cruel? Sure there are plenty of "excuses" in my opinion... that one can use to cheat... and being from a divorced family myself.. i can honestly say.. sure the divorce may be hard on the kid.. or kids.. but ultimately they will remember who was there for them and who wasn't, ect. Now.. if not paying out child support is the only reason NOT to get divorced.. and to cheat instead.. that's pretty lame. I'm guessing not very many of you here have ever seen a woman pay child support to an ex husband? Well.. I've seen and talked to plenty of women who DO pay child support to their ex husbands. The man does not always have to pay.. the woman doesn't always get to keep the kids.. especially not in this day and age. I've seen plenty of cases where courts ruled in favor of who would be more capable of providing a stable and secure home for the child and no it's not always the man. They do look at each spouses income and living situation now days. So yes.. I'm in favor of leaving a relationship if it's that crappy that one feels they need to seek intimacy elsewhere. However.. if choosing to stay.. then at least do the work.. don't half azz things. That's my viewpoint.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Just off the top of my head:
> 
> 1. It’s illegal. His wife finds out, and she really rakes him over the coals on support and seeing his kids, plus embarrasses him in front of everyone.
> 
> ...


Based on this, I will have to suggest ************* as option #5. Not illegal and not quite as pathetic as paying for it.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Just off the top of my head:
> 
> 1. It’s illegal. His wife finds out, and she really rakes him over the coals on support and seeing his kids, plus embarrasses him in front of everyone.


The fact that something is illegal has never really held much sway over my decisions.
Possible embarrassment is a small price to pay for the chance to stay close to my kid.
She`s gonna rake him over the coals no matter what he does.



> 2. He has to look himself in the mirror. He allows her actions to control the type of man he wants to be. Because of her, he decides that honest is merely convenient.


Honesty is merely convenient for everyone.
Honesty towards the witch I described isn`t even remotely motivating.



> 3. Hiring a pro is not going to stop him from dying inside. Instead, he is a pathetic guy whose wife can’t stand him and can only get some pathetic hand action if he pays for it. Nothing says winner like having to pay for sex. Not sure I see that as a real uplift for the spirit.


The idea of paying for sex doesn`t bother me.
I can think of many reasons why I might choose to so so over engaging in a relationship or casual hook-up.

He would be a pathetic guy for staying in a marriage where he`s abused and that might be the only motivation to voluntarily be without my kid for 90% of the time.
Self-esteem
Might be...it`s a close call.

But you did come up with a rational, unbiased reason.

Thanks!


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

oh, just noticed that this website doesn't like the well known website for cheaters hooking up.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Gaia said:


> Tacoma... think this in reverse as well.. would you still state the same if it was a man being this cruel?


C`mon Gaia have you ever seen me post in a gender biased manner?



> Sure there are plenty of "excuses" in my opinion... that one can use to cheat... and being from a divorced family myself.. i can honestly say.. sure the divorce may be hard on the kid.. or kids.. but ultimately they will remember who was there for them and who wasn't, ect.


But that`s the point to this guy.
He won`t be there for his kids except for 4 days a month.
So now I`m asking you to turn the tables.
How would you react at the very real possibility of having your child ripped from your life by the kind of person I described above?



> Now.. if not paying out child support is the only reason NOT to get divorced.. and to cheat instead.. that's pretty lame. I'm guessing not very many of you here have ever seen a woman pay child support to an ex husband?


Yes, I`ve "heard" of women paying child support and spousal support.
I`ve "known" a dozen men who couldn`t afford to make car payments/rent due to alimony for an Ex who cheated on them and took everything they`ve spent their lives working for.



> They do look at each spouses income and living situation now days.


Yes, they do but this is a very recent phenomenon and it isn`t widespread in our culture as of yet.
However I intentionally avoided this argument by making the wife a SAHM for the entirety of the marriage.
She going to get alimony, a lot of it.



> So yes.. I'm in favor of leaving a relationship if it's that crappy that one feels they need to seek intimacy elsewhere. However.. if choosing to stay.. then at least do the work.. don't half azz things. That's my viewpoint.


I`m generally in favor of divorce in these situations as well.

However, I won`t lie and say that the idea of losing my kid, security, AND having to spend the rest of my life working my ass off to pay this evil *****es way strikes me as an "excuse".
Seems like a pretty rational decision considering the circumstances.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Said "Witches" always tend to get their due.... so decent men must not sink to indecent levels imo... and realize a D isn't something being done for said "Witch" .. it would be done to allow that man his freedom to be with someone who will appreciate him. (Again ... my view on it)


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

First, Tacoma, my example, way back in post 27 was "By way of example, in my case my W is a SAHM. I work long hours and have a long commute. Our expenses are higher than her earning capacity, were she to return to work. So, if we D, there is no way I'd be able to take custody, would need to pay for a house, a car, child support, spousal support, health insurance, etc. So, if my W chose to consciously neglect me, despite me loving her wholeheartedly, I should D or at least tell her that I was going to have my needs met (so that she can claim the high ground in a D to all parties) and sacrifice my life to support her and see my kids less and pay for her?"

So, I am with you. There are reasons. 

And no Gaia, it is not just the child support. A SAHM is going to get custody. Even if it is shared, the H is going to see his child less, less mornings, less seeing him when he is sick or can't sleep, less teaching by example, showing how to fix a toilet or faucet, less too late baseball games and silly jokes. My brother and father used to meet at 2 in the morning for a snack when we were teens, that couldn't happen if my father was not there. I make my children lunch and play chess or basketball if there is a few minutes before school/work. My daughters sneak into bed with me in the morning. That daily stuff would not be there. And I am not talking about from the child's perspective, but from the father's. Why should I give that up if my W is neglecting me. I should remain celebate or not live with my children?

And, it doesn't even have to be a PA. What about developing a too close relationship with a woman who will listen, be sympathetic, but with whom there is no sex?


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

I know it's more recent.. and I do hope it spreads out more.. I mean.. after all it is 2012 and the big thing now is equality.. therefore even if the woman was a SAHM... well she sure as hell shouldn't be the one with the kids if she can't provide for them. That's how I see it. After all.. there have been SAHD's who have been ordered to pay child support and told to get a job, ect.. the SAHM should get the same treatment. I did run into one that has... (A SAHM that is) and she thought it was sooo unfair and blah blah blah... but I pointed out to her that she had no means to support the kids, she was living in a homeless shelter, ect sooo i felt it was pretty fair.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Well this SAHM I'm referring to.. was only allowed to see her children once a month for two hours.... the rest of the time.. they were with their father.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

SprucHub said:


> And no Gaia, it is not just the child support. A SAHM is going to get custody. Even if it is shared, the H is going to see his child less, less mornings, less seeing him when he is sick or can't sleep, less teaching by example, showing how to fix a toilet or faucet, less too late baseball games and silly jokes. My brother and father used to meet at 2 in the morning for a snack when we were teens, that couldn't happen if my father was not there. I make my children lunch and play chess or basketball if there is a few minutes before school/work. My daughters sneak into bed with me in the morning. That daily stuff would not be there. And I am not talking about from the child's perspective, but from the father's. Why should I give that up if my W is neglecting me. I should remain celebate or not live with my children?


This is the thing that caused me to post.

I simply couldn`t deal with this loss, I`d be willing to destroy my self esteem in order to continue to have this with my child.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Gaia said:


> Well this SAHM I'm referring to.. was only allowed to see her children once a month for two hours.... the rest of the time.. they were with their father.


Yeah, that`d kill me.

I can`t even imagine.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

The point I made with that is... just because the womans a SAHM doesn't mean she will get custody.. that's no longer a guarantee... and I do hope that becomes more widespread.


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## Juicer (May 2, 2012)

I know I am kinda late here, but I do think this needs to be said:

I have very little tolerance for cheating. There are maybe a few extreme cases, where I can understand the reason for cheating from the cheater's point of view. But how often do those cases arise?
But if it is just because your wife refuses to fulfill your needs, you have a right hand (or left, if you are a lefty) for a reason. 

Or, if you can't go back to that, buy a doll. You can buy a top quality doll for like $4000. It will be more attractive than your wife probably is, and it won't talk back. Plus, that doll will do what your wife won't.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Juicer said:


> I know I am kinda late here, but I do think this needs to be said:
> 
> I have very little tolerance for cheating. There are maybe a few extreme cases, where I can understand the reason for cheating from the cheater's point of view. But how often do those cases arise?
> *But if it is just because your wife refuses to fulfill your needs, you have a right hand (or left, if you are a lefty) for a reason. *
> ...


Ahhh Juicer, I PM'd a few people about this already... Might as well say it. Many, if they have read my replies on various threads, know my view of porn. Masturbation, meh, whatever...as long as it isn't the cause of the lack of sex (and yes, that happens sometimes)...have at it.... But I said to a few that the irony of this, considering my personal view of porn, I'd say have at it in this case. The only other thing I would suggest is not to keep it hidden. Not because it might hurt her if she finds it, but because if she finds it, and if she is a vindictive woman, she could initiate divorce, etc... KWIM?

And, yes, tacoma, it must be dire for me to "approve"


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

Juicer said:


> I know I am kinda late here, but I do think this needs to be said:
> 
> I have very little tolerance for cheating. There are maybe a few extreme cases, where I can understand the reason for cheating from the cheater's point of view. But how often do those cases arise?
> But if it is just because your wife refuses to fulfill your needs, you have a right hand (or left, if you are a lefty) for a reason.
> ...


Read the sex in marriage board, you'll see examples of prime candidates for cheating. When a wife or husband refuses sex, it is not just the orgasm that is missing. It is (1) the extreme sense of rejection, (2) the unique personal connection, (3) the loneliness and disappointment. These are soul/spirit crushing, not just a full prostate. On the opposite side is the soul breathing/spirit raising of spending meaningful time being with a child.

In most cases, cheating is the terrible and lying about cheating is the worst thing you can do. It robs the BS of thier time, effort, love. But, in this limited circumstance where the BS is not exerting effort or love, and not giving his/her time, the "cheating" is not robbing anything.


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## Juicer (May 2, 2012)

I was wrong then. I'll admit that. I am sorry, and I was a little judgmental about a topic that I have only experienced in one way. Sorry.

But I will say this:
Sometimes it is cheaper to stay in an unhappy/unloving marriage with a wife (and your doll) than to divorce. 
Plus, you still get to see you kid.


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## livelaughlovenow (Apr 23, 2012)

tacoma said:


> The OP does indeed have a valid point, regardless of gender.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was just going to say the same could be said for men, and it isn't just about sex, it's about passion, and desire, that is felt as well. I was reading that other site and the people who have affairs talk about the lack of passion and desire in their own marriages, not to say it makes an affair right, just the reasoning for stepping out, just like with with quanity, quality is important as well. But I am a firm believer on working on it together or leaving the marriage before seeking solstice elsewhere.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

livelaughlovenow said:


> I was just going to say the same could be said for men, and it isn't just about sex, it's about passion, and desire, that is felt as well. I was reading that other site and the people who have affairs talk about the lack of passion and desire in their own marriages, not to say it makes an affair right, just the reasoning for stepping out, just like with with quanity, quality is important as well. But I am a firm believer on working on it together or leaving the marriage before seeking solstice elsewhere.


Agreed, it`s not just a sex thing it`s any "need" that`s being ignored purposely by a spouse.
Especially those "needs" which a marital vow is supposed to uphold.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I love your posts DTO !


Thank you. That really means a great deal.

I try to share my genuine opinion with a blend of straight-forwardness and tact. Nonetheless, in certain circles my posts have tended to offend as being too demanding, too insensitive towards women, etc.

Nice to know that my posts are appreciated here.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

SprucHub said:


> Hope,
> 
> No. Once someone breaks their vows cruelly, they have no right to expect anything from you. Moreover, you do not owe them anything. In a real sense, you cannot cheat on someone that has reneged on their marriage vows.


:iagree:

When someone says that he or she has little interest in sex with his or her spouse, and notes they intend to live in accordance with that sentiment, that spouse has morally and emotionally ended the marriage.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Gaia said:


> So..... is it just for better and not for worse? Kind of seems like what your hinting at here.


Hoo Boy, I need to get in front of that firing line as well...

To me, for better or worse implies that your spouse is making a sustained, concerted effort to meet my needs. I commit to my wife for better or worse as long as she is giving me her best.

A spouse that puts forward the low level of sexual effort we are talking about here (unengaged, duty sex, low frequency) is not coming with their best. That person is offering nothing but scraps and has already violated the premise of the vow.

Before you criticize the person who would leave over bad sex, note that the other person in the marriage has emotionally (if not physically) left the marriage over a failure to invest 90 minutes (less than 1% of) a week in sex.

Moreover, your interpretation of for better or worse means that I could quit my job and cause her to work two jobs, hit on hot 20-somethings in front of her, or whine incessantly over any tiny little fault. After all, I'm not hurting her and she did sign up for better or for worse, right?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Gaia said:


> I've no idea why people are bringing THAT up ... however.. going that route.. people don't get married soley for SEX either. There is more to a relationship then that imo.
> 
> But I highly doubt all LD people intend to hurt their HD partner or even realize how their HD partner feels since in most cases.. I'm sure the HD doesn't communicate it too well and vice versa.


I'm really in for it now...

First, It's true that people don't get married solely for sex. But, that does not mean that sex is not a deal-breaker for people. There are lots of things that people need to have in order to be happy in a marriage - sex is merely one of those many things.

Let's use a car as an analogy. A car has many things that all must function well in order for it to meet its intended purpose:
1) It must have a working engine and transmission to generate power for the car to move.
2) It must have four good tires and a good suspension to keep it on the road safely.
3) It must have good steering and brakes so that you can stop and change direction.

No matter how shiny the car is on the outside, if it is missing any of the above it is a crappy car and not fulfilling it's purpose. None of these three are more important than the others; they all must exist to have a good car.

The problem is that many people don't see sex as essential to a marriage. Some people will just polish up the outside and put on that happy face (and insist the dissatisfied spouse not complain). Some people treat sex like air conditioning (nice to have but not absolutely essential). And some people treat it like the DVD player for the kids in the back seat.

Second, while it may be true that the LD do not set out with the intent to harm their spouses, that really is not the point we are making here. We are talking about spouses who know or should know that they are hurting their spouses yet do not change.

If I am significantly unsatisfied sexually and just sit there and suffer in silence, then yeah it's my fault. But, the moment I tell my spouse "I am unhappy sexually and need more from you" my spouse is partially if not mostly / completely responsible for the problem. This is because I have expressed the problem and now it is up to my spouse to act.

When I tell my spouse I am unhappy sexually there are only two ways she can react. She can start meeting my need (I wish). Or, like many of the spouses we hear about, she can choose to ignore me / decide that I am lying for my own benefit, and then rationalize away her inaction accordingly. When you say that the LD partners do not know the HD partners are hurting, I do not see how that is possible. The more likely explanation is that the LD spouse has chosen to ignore the HD spouse's request for more / better sex.

To say it differently, if I am unhappy with the sex and I tell my partner so, that is all I should have to do. I seriously doubt that I am not communicating well, because it is a simple concept to express and I (along with everyone else here) has a sufficient grasp of the English language to communicate it effectively. What is likely happening is that the refusing spouse is negotiating / scheming / avoiding to give the absolute minimum possible.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

pidge70 said:


> I must have missed that part in the wedding vows. I promise to love , honor and cherish you. Forsaking all others unless you don't give me any then I can do what I want because our marriage is null and void.


Well, again, the problem with this argument is that the refusing spouse is not holding up his or her part of the agreement.

If my wife is knowingly not meeting my sexual need, she is not loving, honoring, or cherishing me. In effect, she HAS ALREADY made the marriage null and void by willingly failing to meet my need over an extended period of time.

So, your argument sounds to me a lot like I should hold myself to a higher standard than she holds me to. In essence, I should encourage that behavior by treating her well while she mistreats me.

Well, for that matter, why don't I buy her some boots and invite her to kick me in the nutz while she's at it? I'm exaggerating of course, but I think my point is well made. At a certain level, sex problems reach a level where the marriage is in imminent danger and should be resolved immediately. Any argument that "you promised to stand by him / her" ignores that basic fact.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

So by cheating that makes it better how? All you get then are two people who didn't uphold their vows. Plus, we don't know his wife's side of the story.....a LOT of assumptions being made from a one sided post.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

pidge70 said:


> So by cheating that makes it better how? All you get then are two people who didn't uphold their vows. Plus, we don't know his wife's side of the story.....a LOT of assumptions being made from a one sided post.


Actually I think the OP was a hypothetical to discuss the ramifications of such a situation.

I know he was using his own experience but he was using it to frame a discussion, not necessarily to discuss his specific situation but all situations that are similar.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

DTO said:


> Let's use a car as an analogy. A car has many things that all must function well in order for it to meet its intended purpose:
> 1) It must have a working engine and transmission to generate power for the car to move.
> 2) It must have four good tires and a good suspension to keep it on the road safely.
> 3) It must have good steering and brakes so that you can stop and change direction.
> ...


DTO, I have to say... I DO understand what you are getting at, and, while I agree with one part: the spouse who is refusing has, essentially, left the marriage... they have broken the vows, that, I will concede. It has become a piece of paper. It is really, in name only, right? So, what difference does it make if the other spouse cheats.. that is your point. I disagree, but that is my personal opinion. And, as Pidge said, we only have the OP side, not his wife's. I am certain that any number of things I have said regarding my husband and myself, he has a differing view. Of course, I would expect that. But that's not the point. The point is, the OP chose to stay in, what he has described as a sexless marriage. It was his choice to stay. He says he did it because he loves her. IMO, if you truly love someone that much, you won't cheat. Plain and simple. No matter how much you are pushed away, you won't cheat. However, if you are unsure of how you actually feel... yes, I can see how it CAN happen. 

However, your car analogy...doesn't really work. My auto tech husband would tell you if a car is broken, you either
1. Fix it
or 
2. Junk it.

So... if using a car as an analogy... you would either FIX the marriage, or JUNK it (divorce). 

And no, I am not saying you need to do it all alone. The other spouse NEEDS to step up. And that is the important thing. How to reach them, I really don't know. My husband wouldn't be classified LD, necessarily, but going from average 3 times a week down to once a week is tough...when I would prefer at least 5. But, when we dropped to once a month, we never considered actually getting sex elsewhere.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

SprucHub said:


> Hope,
> 
> No. Once someone breaks their vows cruelly, they have no right to expect anything from you. Moreover, you do not owe them anything. In a real sense, you cannot cheat on someone that has reneged on their marriage vows.
> 
> Like I said, this would be over a prolonged period where divorce may leave the hurt party in an untenable situation financially or with respect to children. In that circumstance, where she upheld her portion of the bargain and was completely let down by her H, she has no obligation to get a D or walk. Once the bargain is broken, the aggreived need not uphold her portion.


Hmmmm.....So if a wife neglects her husband's sexual needs they are no longer married? I don't buy it. How would some husbands even define "meeting their needs" anyway? If you don't have sex at least four times a week, and he feels his needs are not met is he going to cheat? 

As I've stated before, I strongly believe that wives need to take their husband's sexual needs strongly. But you can't use an excuse that you were "treated unfairly" to justify doing something that is also wrong. You could use that excuse for anything that you don't feel is fair in life. I tell my children that life is not always fair. They certainly do not get everything they want. However, it does not give them the RIGHT to behave poorly. What about personal responsibility?


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

DTO said:


> Well, again, the problem with this argument is that the refusing spouse is not holding up his or her part of the agreement.
> 
> If my wife is knowingly not meeting my sexual need, she is not loving, honoring, or cherishing me. In effect, she HAS ALREADY made the marriage null and void by willingly failing to meet my need over an extended period of time.
> 
> ...



If the sexual abuse is that bad, you owe it to yourself and your children to leave the relationship. It might be harder financially, but it is better to leave a dead marriage than to stay and continue to be abused by your spouse. What kind of example would this set for children?


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## La Rose Noire (Jun 20, 2012)

You gotta love people who don't put out then are surprised their spouse cheated.

They don't want to give any and they don't want them to get any elsewhere. Why anyone would do that to their spouse is beyond me.

Not saying cheating is right. Sure they should leave. But so should the spouse who is so unhappy/unattracted that they deny sex. Why do they stay? Same reasons cheaters do.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

daffodilly said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> I also agree that if a spouse is not trying to fulfill his/her partners sexual needs, then that person has also not fulfilled their vows. BUT, to me, two wrongs don't make a right. ie., if your needs are not getting met, and your partner knows this and makes zero effort, I don't see it as justification for cheating...I see it as justification for leaving. Cheating is cowardly, in my opinion.
> 
> And AlmostRecovered....your inital response to the OP about the massage parlours was by far the best in this thread...another fan here!


Exactly. The OP's wife broke her vows when she chose to neglect her husband's sexual needs. But the husband also made a conscious decision to cheat.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

DTO I in no way said i was against anyone leaving a spouse if their sexual needs were NOT fullfilled.. in fact I rooted for it several times in my posts. I stated I felt that leaving a bad relationship is much better then staying and cheating. As someone else pointed out.. your car analogy works this way... Fix it.. or junk it.. that's pretty much the only options you have with a car. I can't imagine anyone getting a car.. then when it breaks down.. just let it sit there, get another and when that breaks down let it sit in the yard as well while you get still another... doesn't make much sense to me. And as far as not fullfilling sexual desires as equating to breaking vows... well thats no reason to cheat imo.. thats reason to leave. Cheating would just mean your breaking vows as well and it just complicates things as well as brings about more grief for all parties .. especially children. People here are assuming every LD spouse CHOOSES to deny the HD sex... seriously people.. that's not always the case.. there are many reasons sex can decrease and it's not JUST because one spouse is purposely denying the other.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ffp20 said:


> Hey, dont discount the way a man feels. Are you a man? How do you really know whats important to them. My wife is like you: telling me how i should feel. THAT is the bs here.


And it's bs that some guys, like the OP are here telling women what they are supposed to think and how they are supposed to behave.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Phenix70 said:


> Further proof to me that people should have sex before marriage, to see how compatiable they are sexually.
> Putting aside hormones levels that could crop up later in life, most people are going to know if they are LD or HD BEFORE they get married.
> Personally I'd rather know going in how often my partner wants to have sex.


Sex before marriage does not necessarily predict how a person will act about sex after marriage. I've always been HD.. very HD.

My husband was HD when we dated and for the first 5 years of our marriage. Then he has choses NO SEX for the last 7 years. 

There was absolutely no way to predict that he would go to LD and then No-D from his before marriage sexual behavior.

We are divorced now.


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

Gaia said:


> I'm well aware of how hormones effect the brain chemistry Ocotillo however I feel that people are perfectly capable of keeping these hormones under control by choice.


isnt that a contradiction? you dont consciously regulate these hormones.


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> And it's bs that some guys, like the OP are here telling women what they are supposed to think and how they are supposed to behave.



hes not telling anyone how to think. although i think he should have set them by telling his wife b4 he took hj's.

and some guys will stray if not getting needs met at home. so do some women. 

The thing the OP is doing, its called setting boundries. better to know straight up than to wind up on TAM years later isnt it?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SprucHub said:


> I am defensive of the OP because I know, sort of, what he endured. Your statement contradicts his. You are your husband's lover, his best friend, someone he can communicate with. So, he would never cheat - of course, why would he. Picture instead if you were prudish and could not and would not talk about sex (and his needs, wants and desires), rejected his advances for years (literally), never complimented him, took his efforts for granted, made clear that any sex was pity/chore sex by telling him to hurry up and not kissing him, etc. All the while he was a "nice guy", doing more than his share of the work around the home, being respectful, making money, doing all that is asked.
> 
> You might say that you'd never do those things. THAT IS THE POINT, that is why your husband would not cheat and would be completely wrong in doing so.


Here is the issue. You paint a picture here of the perfect husband who meets all of his wife's needs, and yet she basically will not have sex with this perfect man because she’s selfish and self-centered.

Marriages are usually like that. It takes two as they say. 

We don’t know why the OP’s wife seldom wants to have sex with him. She might have a very good reason. She’s not here to tell us her side of the story. 

For all we know he’s abusive and never gives her needs a thought. For all we know his entire approach to sex is a huge turn off. 

This thread reminds me of a post on here a few months back. A guy came here saying pretty much what the OP said about his wife… except this poster did not cheat on his wife. But he said she was cold, refused sex most of the time. And he was a perfect husband who did everything for her
. 
Well after quite a few pages of people here giving this ‘perfect’ husband with the ‘cold, ld, wife’ all kinds of sympathy and advice for him to just leaver her the poster’s wife came on line. She posted the rest of the story.

The things I recall were things like him yelling and putting her down all the time, and opps he did not do everything as he claimed. And then in bed… well he refused to bath but once a week and was just stinky and dirty when he got in bed and wanted sex. He also refused to ever brush his teeth also. So that’s why she got to the point of refusing to kiss him.. who wants to kiss a trash mouth? 

Apparently he’d get in bed, lay there and just order her to ‘do him’. There was no passion, no foreplay and so forth. 

The two of them, poster and wife, exchanged a few posts and thus it became clear that her part of the story was accurate. 

You see, it’s usually not so clear cut as the OP is saying it is. Due to the fact that he admits to cheating on his wife on a regular basis, I wonder about what other ways this guy is selfish. I wonder how well her needs are met and if this is why she does not enjoy having sex with him. 

Further, the fact that he came here and presumed to know that all women needed to be chastised and told to put out or be cheated on tells me that there is a lot of issues with the OP that are not being disclosed here.

It’s seldom so simple as he’s wonderful in every way and she’s just a cold wife.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

anonim said:


> isnt that a contradiction? you dont consciously regulate these hormones.


As far as feeling horny.. how can someone NOT realize they are horny? What one does to deal with being horny is by choice which is what I was pointing out. Sure... one can't help GETTING horny.. however.. HOW one deals with it is where the choice comes in.. THAT is what I was pointing out as it seems people have been stating that because they are horny.. they can't HELP but cheat.. and it's not their fault.. but their spouses and their.. "Uncontrollable" horniness... that there is what I feel is bs. That there is making excuses imo and not taking responsibility for ones actions. I stated that if they cheat.. it's because they CHOSE to... and they can easily choose to deal with it another.. and imo.. more honorable way. I do apologize if my wording came across differently as it seems it has to many already.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

DTO said:


> Well, again, the problem with this argument is that the refusing spouse is not holding up his or her part of the agreement.
> 
> If my wife is knowingly not meeting my sexual need, she is not loving, honoring, or cherishing me. In effect, she HAS ALREADY made the marriage null and void by willingly failing to meet my need over an extended period of time.
> 
> ...


So the only need that matters in a marriage are the husband's sexual needs?

What if he was first the one who refused to meet her needs?

Does marriage cover that as well? 

What about a man who refuses sex to his wife? Is his wife now justified in cheating?


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## Aristotle (Apr 4, 2012)

Money isn't worth my integrity. 

Your kid can understand you and his mom just weren't compatible one day, but he'll never understand why you would cheat on his mom with a handjob hooker. Sorry man. 

Moral compass, integrity, core values... my option is to leave and unfortunately hurt my kids staying true to myself. 

Anyone looking for hookers was a piece of crap with no morals long before their spouse quit having sex with them... which is probably why she stopped to begin with. An unplanned EA, possibly turning PA? I can understand why a guy would cheat, but it's still the coward move. 

A coward that doesn't have to pay child support, cheats and lies, disrespects his own principles (unless he never had any), stays with a woman he doesn't want anymore, lives a fake life for his children.... and this list can go on forever. 

FIRE!


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

anonim said:


> The thing the OP is doing, its called setting boundries. better to know straight up than to wind up on TAM years later isnt it?


Setting boundaries for whom? Every woman here? And that is NOT telling someone what to do or how to think? Sorry but since he already HAS someone.. and he is NOT in a relationship with every woman in the world... he really has no right or reason to tell them how to act with their own spouses nor does he have the right to set boundaries in their relationship.. that statement there just seemed silly to me.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

pidge70 said:


> So by cheating that makes it better how? All you get then are two people who didn't uphold their vows. Plus, we don't know his wife's side of the story.....a LOT of assumptions being made from a one sided post.


If a woman whose husband withheld sex from her cheated, I can only imagine the names some of these same posters would call her. I've seen the advice here to women who cheated for the same reason... they do not get the same level of sympathy from the guys around here.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Gaia said:


> Setting boundaries for whom? Every woman here? And that is NOT telling someone what to do or how to think? Sorry but since he already HAS someone.. and he is NOT in a relationship with every woman in the world... he really has no right or reason to tell them how to act with their own spouses nor does he have the right to set boundaries in their relationship.. that statement there just seemed silly to me.


I agree. The OP is down right insulting to women in general. Who is this poster to tell women how the had better behave?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

anonim said:


> hes not telling anyone how to think. although i think he should have set them by telling his wife b4 he took hj's.
> 
> and some guys will stray if not getting needs met at home. so do some women.
> 
> The thing the OP is doing, its called setting boundries. better to know straight up than to wind up on TAM years later isnt it?


The OP can set all the boundaries he wants in his own marriage.

His original post was "in your face" to every woman as if every woman is like his wife and hence needed him to talk down to us and tell us we'd better be putting out.

Why does he assume that all women need to be told this?

Does he even realize how many men refuse sex with their wives? Does he even realize that most women have a sex drive and want sex?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

anonim said:


> isnt that a contradiction? you dont consciously regulate these hormones.


Most people, when turned on, can assess the situation and not follow through sexually if the situation call for this... and thus their body will wind down the hormone flow so that you are no longer turned on.

We can even choose to get turned on, thus causing hormone production when we want.

So yes we can consciously control hormones in such situations.


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## suesmith (Jan 5, 2012)

Sure are a lot of tall pedestals around here and its gonna hurt like hell when some of the judgmental folks posting in this thread fall off of them. 

And some of you will, eventually.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

suesmith said:


> Sure are a lot of tall pedestals around here and its gonna hurt like hell when some of the judgmental folks posting in this thread fall off of them.
> 
> And some of you will, eventually.


It would be nice if you mentioned what you disagree with. As it is right now no one knows who you think is on a high pedestal and why you think that.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

cent130130 said:


> You obviously struck a chord with the ladies! I read your post and couldn't agree more with the points you made at the end. I think you were wrong to seek out relief outside of your marriage, however, most of the ladies whose posts I read completely missed what I thought was a VERY significant point, that I believe very few women understand or desire to believe: men NEED physical intimacy to connect with our wives emotionally!! Those women who refuse to acknowledge this fact are just begging for a situation like you described in your marriage.
> 
> Think of it this way ladies: picture his relationship in reverse, i.e. he and his wife had meaningful conversation 8-10 times per year, but had sex daily. What would you do in that situation? I would wager that 100% of you would try to fill your need for meaningful conversation with your girlfriends. As many of you ladies pointed out, married men do not have a legitimate alternative to quench that desire. Deny it if you want, but if you're doing so in your own relationship, you're taking a serious gamble, and your husband (whether he is saying it or not) may be extremely frustrated.


Holy stereotype Batman. Many of us women understand sex just fine and many of us don't want conversation, flowers or compliments to get to that point. 
I have a question. Have men ever thought for a second that women don't actually lose their drive rather lose it for their partner? I have heard countless times from women I know that their sexual desire doesn't wane at all, just for their partner. Doesn't that make you wonder? I don't say this to be cruel, I just didn't like the ultimatum like tone on this thread. It goes both ways afterall.


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## thegatewalker (Apr 29, 2012)

This is just a lame copout. I have not got to have sex with my wife in 8 months and still have about 4 more. You know how many times I went out looking for sex none. You know why because I truely love my wife and understand the diffrence between love and lust so man up and find out for your self.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

suesmith said:


> Sure are a lot of tall pedestals around here and its gonna hurt like hell when some of the judgmental folks posting in this thread fall off of them.
> 
> And some of you will, eventually.


Many of the ones posting in this thread have dealt with, or are currently dealing with infidelity. That is, either physical or emotional. Some have been presented with the option to get some sort of sexual satisfaction outside the marriage and chose not to because no matter what has happened int he marriage, the vows were still in place FOR THEM and they chose NOT to break them from their own point of view... even when the other spouse withheld sex, or didn't meet whatever other needs they needed met. I was given the opportunity to get physically involved with another man, not once, but twice. Both times, I chose not to. And this was when we were at a sexual low point, and we were struggling with whether or not we really loved each other... and we both were confiding in opposite sex friends, etc. Yes, emotional affairs. It that makes me a hypocrite because of my comments, so be it. But that means there are others here who are in the same boat as I. But we chose to work though it... We chose to FIX the marriage. Neither of us went out and got sexual favors from anyone else. So... am I on one of those toppled pedestals?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Juicer said:


> I know I am kinda late here, but I do think this needs to be said:
> 
> I have very little tolerance for cheating. There are maybe a few extreme cases, where I can understand the reason for cheating from the cheater's point of view. But how often do those cases arise?
> But if it is just because your wife refuses to fulfill your needs, you have a right hand (or left, if you are a lefty) for a reason.
> ...


A pool toy is more attractive than your wife? Okay then. Maybe marriage wasn't a good choice in the first place and a phone call to 1-800-Get A Divorce is a better one.


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## Aristotle (Apr 4, 2012)

suesmith said:


> Sure are a lot of tall pedestals around here and its gonna hurt like hell when some of the judgmental folks posting in this thread fall off of them.
> 
> And some of you will, eventually.


Thankfully I have a bungee cord wrapped around my ankle with a double chute strapped to my back. Not to mention my superman cape I keep just for moments like this, when the tall pedestals decide to test my balance and sneak attack me. If they only knew I've practiced balancing a la karate kid, one foot only on pedestals much smaller and less stable. Plus I'm an insomniac. 

Also, the moral compass can be used as a handglider, just in case.


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## suesmith (Jan 5, 2012)

All I am saying is that its easy to judge, but a bit harder to walk in someones shoes. Yes, I know many have dealt with infidelity issues and they hurt. I know that. And no, I dont condone any kind of infidelity.

However, given the right, (or wrong) set of circumstances, many can and will fall into an affair or some sort. More often its men, but women can fall into them too. No one, and I mean NO ONE is immune. If you think you are, look out, you may be on the way to a fall.


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## suesmith (Jan 5, 2012)

Aristotle said:


> Thankfully I have a bungee cord wrapped around my ankle with a double chute strapped to my back. Not to mention my superman cape I keep just for moments like this, when the tall pedestals decide to test my balance and sneak attack me. If they only knew I've practiced balancing a la karate kid, one foot only on pedestals much smaller and less stable. Plus I'm an insomniac.
> 
> Also, the moral compass also can be used as a handglider, just in case.



Sounds like you are well prepared!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

suesmith said:


> All I am saying is that its easy to judge, but a bit harder to walk in someones shoes. Yes, I know many have dealt with infidelity issues and they hurt. I know that. And no, I dont condone any kind of infidelity.
> 
> However, given the right, (or wrong) set of circumstances, many can and will fall into an affair or some sort. More often its men, but women can fall into them too. No one, and I mean NO ONE is immune. If you think you are, look out, you may be on the way to a fall.


No one is immune from infidelity, I agree with that. The OP's entire post though was a threat. It was veiled as a "listen up, I have a nugget of information" kind of thread but really it was just to shake up women with his story. It did little for me informative wise but to infuriate my being and make me AGAIN realize that all relationships have two sides. If he is like this with strangers on the internet, imagine how he is with his own wife. Small wonder (to me) why she wasn't all 9 1/2 weeks on his ass. Sex at verbal gunpoint isn't sexy, neither is bragging to the world at how much he is getting now. That is private and should be respected. Never mind the whole human trafficking aspect. Blech. Sexual insecticide.


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## cent130130 (Nov 6, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Holy stereotype Batman. Many of us women understand sex just fine and many of us don't want conversation, flowers or compliments to get to that point.
> I have a question. Have men ever thought for a second that women don't actually lose their drive rather lose it for their partner? I have heard countless times from women I know that their sexual desire doesn't wane at all, just for their partner. Doesn't that make you wonder? I don't say this to be cruel, I just didn't like the ultimatum like tone on this thread. It goes both ways afterall.


Stereotype? Perhaps you can enlighten me on what I stereotyped inaccurately. Many of you women may understand sex (from the man's point of view) just fine, my comments were directed primarily to the many of you who don't (whom I believe fall in to the majority). Further, I am certain you are correct in that some women lose their drive for their partner specifically, not their drive for sex in general. My point is that there should be communication, in an effort to understand each other's point of view and reach agreeable common ground. The responsibility falls on both parties to make an effort to communicate, in my opinion. I don't see anything I wrote as an ultimatum, unless you are seeing the truth as an ultimatum. The truth is what it is, i.e. truth. I also agree with you that it goes both ways, which in my mind was the exact point I was trying to make. I was trying to help some women see both ways, i.e. see the situation from a man's point of view (not, perhaps, every man's point of view, but many men's point of view).


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

cent130130 said:


> Stereotype? Perhaps you can enlighten me on what I stereotyped inaccurately. Many of you women may understand sex (from the man's point of view) just fine, my comments were directed primarily to the many of you who don't (whom I believe fall in to the majority). Further, I am certain you are correct in that some women lose their drive for their partner specifically, not their drive for sex in general. My point is that there should be communication, in an effort to understand each other's point of view and reach agreeable common ground. The responsibility falls on both parties to make an effort to communicate, in my opinion. I don't see anything I wrote as an ultimatum, unless you are seeing the truth as an ultimatum. The truth is what it is, i.e. truth. I also agree with you that it goes both ways, which in my mind was the exact point I was trying to make. I was trying to help some women see both ways, i.e. see the situation from a man's point of view (not, perhaps, every man's point of view, but many men's point of view).


Reread just your first four sentences of this post and you will see where my stereotype comment came from, nevermind your previous post. You paint most women as non-sexual. 

Women don't need help to see "both ways". Do you really think women don't understand sex? I mean really? Come on. 50 Shades Of Grey is the hottest selling book and 10 million women in the U.S. bought it from Amazon alone. It is currently being translated in to 42 languages and a movie is in the works. Do you think they bought it for their husbands? No, they bought it to masturbate to. A book about a woman having the hottest sex of her life.

Women do nearly 80% of the buying in the U.S. Do you think David Beckham showing his massive package for Calvin Klein was an accident? Or was the Old Spice hottie just for gay men? Tom Brady modeling for Ugg boots....was that for men? What about every single calendar sold from firehouses around this country. Didn't think they still existed, did you? They do and and add nearly $15MM for the departments nationwide. It was for women, women who want to look and fantasize about hot men. Whoops, the cats out of the bag. Women think about sex plenty. Anybody who says otherwise is a damn fool. If your wife doesn't want sex, you either need to rethink your technique or rethink your relationship.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Do me or else I'll spank you! Oooh....don't tease.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Reread just your first four sentences of this post and you will see where my stereotype comment came from, nevermind your previous post. You paint most women as non-sexual.
> 
> Women don't need help to see "both ways". Do you really think women don't understand sex? I mean really? Come on. Women do nearly 80% of the buying in the U.S and do you think David Beckham showing his massive package for Calvin Klein was an accident? Or was the Old Spice hottie just for gay men? Or what about Tom Brady modeling for Ugg boots....was that for men? No. It was for women, women who want to look and fantasize about hot men. Whoops, the cats out of the bag. Women think about sex plenty. We also don't want a guy like the OP who uses his as a threat, do me or else.....


Yea... perhaps some guys are completely missing this fact.. that most women are into sex... after all who all the men having sex with? Each other?

The issue that there is a reason why SOME people lose sexual interest in their spouse. The are about as many reasons for this as there are people who lose interest.

Some of them are just selfish people (men and women), some are manipulative, some are not having their needs met by their spouses and just give up, some have abusive spouses so it goes beyond not just getting their needs met, then here are hormonal issues, etc... I'm sure the list is endless.

To brand most women as clueless about what sex means to men is rediculous. News flash for some... for women.. sex is also a huge part of the intimacy and bonding that is necessary for a healthy marriage.

That's why we have so many women who come here and complain about their husband's refusal to have sex.. (gee it's not just women is it?)


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## mc1234 (Jun 9, 2012)

Sporto said:


> Yes if husband neglect their wives emotional needs they do go out and have EA!! Both Men and Women Cheat! Maybe you have not but the point is still valid. If you neglect your spouses needs they may very well cheat!


My H had an EA and gave me the ILYBNILWY speech. There are no gender differences in cheating! He is LD and I am nowHD but it hurts to be rejected a lot of the times. I recieve the physical intimacy I want, just not the sex :-(. This sucks as he was the one that had the EA. in his mind he didn't do anything that was a biggie.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

stable relation ship + good sex life = good marriage
good sex life + unstable relationship = dysfunctional warped empty marriage eventually leading to an EA for one or both.
Stable relation ship + bad sex life = wide open gap for ONS 

The real question i guess he meant to ask is if you are not having sex with your SO then who is. 
Unless a person can't have sex for medical reasons or childhood abuse they are going to wants sex. 
Heck most couples start talking to each other because they want to get in each others pants. 
It takes a culmination of emotional stability and sexual fulfillment to make a marriage work well. Hell even then there is no guarantee.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Have any men here (not withstanding us old farts) ever enjoyed kissing your woman endlessly without expectations or without making her feel like you wanted solely for her body?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> Yea... perhaps some guys are completely missing this fact.. that most women are into sex... after all who all the men having sex with? Each other?
> 
> The issue that there is a reason why SOME people lose sexual interest in their spouse. The are about as many reasons for this as there are people who lose interest.
> 
> ...


No, no, no. Women don't think about sex at all. We are chaste and tuck aspirin between our knees. Sex doesn't even cum across a womans radar. F-ing amazing how men think they have the lock on sex. Guess what boys? Women are nastier than you ever thought possible-----Chris Rock.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

Yes I love making out with my wife. When we do kiss for any mount of time, I have to hold my wife up. It is really nice to see that i can still take her breath away.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> No, no, no. Women don't think about sex at all. We are chaste and tuck aspirin between our knees. Sex doesn't even cum across a womans radar. F-ing amazing how men think they have the lock on sex. Guess what boys? Women are nastier than you ever thought possible-----Chris Rock.


Darn… what did I do with the key to my chastity belt… need to tighten it up some… :rofl:


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

I really have stirred up a hornets nest! I have read all 171+ posts.

One poster mentioned children...for me, he was bang on. If I left/divorced it would have a devastating effect on my (young) children... I would miss the comforting them at 2am when sick or cant sleep, the making them pancakes etc etc.

There are threads/posts on TAM from wives who have denied their husbands sex (for whatever reason) who have then read a book, been to counselling, seen the light, suddenly woken up, whatever and have realised what effect their lack of intimacy has had on their husbands and marriages. They have felt very guilty about it.
I would bet that if those women were asked;
'Did you husband have an affair or get sexual relief elsewhere during your 'LD' period?'.....I bet the answers would be along the lines of; 
'I sincerely hope not, but I wouldn't exactly be surprised if he did'

Marriage is all about so many things...but it really comes down to being a team, a single unit, one.

Because of who we are, the way we are built (both physically and biologically) etc the male generally does the physical things round the home - mow the grass, chop wood, be the larger bread winner etc. The wife is, generally, the 'home maker'.
before I get put against the wall and shot for being sexist....I fully appreciate that there are many households where things are reversed...where the wife works and the husband stays at home.

If my wife kept on asking me to go in to the yard to chop some firewood because she was cold and wanted the fire on and I kept on giving feeble excuses and didnt then came home to find that she had paid someone to come in and chop the wood for her...should I be surprised? No.

We all marry for more or less the same reason, companionship, 'stability', to procreate, to look after one another, to have sex... When I said 'I do', I accepted all the components of marriage....to look after my wife, to protect her, to provide for her...and yes to 'with my body I thee honor'.

She also said 'I do'. 

Once we were done with children her attitude to sex changed completely. It was as if her target was to catch a suitable father, have two children, to do that she had to have sex. Once she had achieved her target of a husband, father and two children, that was it. No need for anymore sex.
She had her hormone tests...normal. We tried the counselling...didn't help.
It was as if her sexual programming had been deleted. 
She refused to talk about it and as sex was not important to her, couldnt understand why it was to me.

Everything else in our marriage was more or less normal...I bought her flowers, I chopped the wood, I changed diapers, I did the school runs when I could, we spooned, we watched movies together etc. Only the sex part was missing.

I craved my wife...I wanted to give her orgasms, I wanted her to say 'Yes...Yes..Yes...harder'.... I wanted her to feel like sexual and wanted etc I would masturbate thinking of my wife...

One birthday I bought her a Spa day.... she had a facial, manicure etc and a massage....she came home looking great and said teh massage was simply fantastic.

I suddenly thought....hey! Why cant I have thise things? just because I am a man doesnt mean I'm not allowed a facial, massage etc.
So I went to a Spa - it was not sleazy, they did manicures, pedicures etc, different types of massage (Swedish, Thai, deep tissue etc).
I had a massage, the masseuse was female, fully clothed. I was on my back with a towel over my 'bits'....I was relaxed, got an erection...'Would you like me to massage 'him' aswell?'....ummmm!
I was 'thirsty', she offered me a drink.

Put the boot on the other foot - If I wasn't meeting my wifes 'needs' - emotional or otherwise - and she ended up getting one of her needs elsewhere...should I blame her? No. Because I was not giving her what she wanted and needed.

My wife doesn't know, and nor does she need to. Neither am I trying to justify what I did...I don't need to.

The only point I am really trying to make, to both husbands and wives, is that it is VITAL to to understand each others needs and to atleast compromise.

Had my wife made the effort to me intimate with me maybe twice a month, then I doubt I would have done what I did.
Just as it is my 'responsibility' as a husband to look after my wifes needs, even if I dont always feel like it.
- men arent 'wired' to automatically buy their wives flowers...we have to make a conscious effort to remember to buy them..its the way we are!

Husbands - if you aren't meeting your wifes needs (whatever they may be), don't be surprised if she gets them met elsewhere.

Wifes - if you aren't meeting your husbands needs (whatever they may be), don't be surprised if he gets them met elsewhere.

I hope my wifes renewed 'interest' in sex is here to stay.... I certainly feel far more emotionally connected to her...and I hope she does to me too.....


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## mc1234 (Jun 9, 2012)

SprucHub said:


> First, Tacoma, my example, way back in post 27 was "By way of example, in my case my W is a SAHM. I work long hours and have a long commute. Our expenses are higher than her earning capacity, were she to return to work. So, if we D, there is no way I'd be able to take custody, would need to pay for a house, a car, child support, spousal support, health insurance, etc. So, if my W chose to consciously neglect me, despite me loving her wholeheartedly, I should D or at least tell her that I was going to have my needs met (so that she can claim the high ground in a D to all parties) and sacrifice my life to support her and see my kids less and pay for her?"
> 
> So, I am with you. There are reasons.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mc1234 (Jun 9, 2012)

H had an EA, but does not even see that it is worst as a PA in hurt and betrayal terms. I am the one who is now insecure etc and needs his intimacy for him to show me it is me he really desires and want. Unfortunately, being the HD spouse, I am feeling lost, unloved but unable to move on as he will be physical in terms of touch not just in the sexual sense. H does not 'get it' and I am left in a very fustrated place.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

You remind me of Shooter McGavin. What a sexual dynamo he was!


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> So the only need that matters in a marriage are the husband's sexual needs?
> 
> What if he was first the one who refused to meet her needs?
> 
> ...


Yes, it goes both ways. The man who refuses sex to his wife also has no legitimate claim on her fidelity. I shy away from saying "justified in cheating" simply because I think it's a bad idea all the way around.

Again, I never said that a man's sexual needs are the only ones that mattered. He could have other needs that are also deal-breakers. And of course the ladies have needs too.

As far as him not meeting her needs, it depends on what that specific need is. Sex is a good example because it is something that the vast majority of people can provide well with a minimum investment in time and energy. You don't have to have a buff body, high IQ, or have a great job to do it well.

If you are talking about the typical female needs for appreciation, emotional intimacy, etc. then I would agree that the man has responsibility to meet them. But, many women set up unreasonable barriers to sex that they claim as "needs".

For instance, I've seen many times where a woman can't get hot for sex because she's afraid the kids might hear (i.e. there's sex only when the house is empty), ordinary life is too stressful (sex happens on vacations mainly), does not have the big home in the suburbs, does not get pleasure from sex but refuses to allow variety, not interested uless getting pregnant, the guy does not make six figures, etc. Clearly unreasonable barriers to / expectations prior to sex.

So, it really does depend. We can't effectively address the validity of any need from him or her without specifying it.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Holy stereotype Batman. Many of us women understand sex just fine and many of us don't want conversation, flowers or compliments to get to that point.


This I totally agree with. I don't consider myself a particularly good catch. But in the year prior to starting grad school I was with two who were just like this and had two more who wanted the job. And this was with low effort on my part.

IMO men and women get down on themselves because refusing spouses intentionally or inadvertently beat us up (emotionally, not physically) to the point where we see ourselves as the problem and not the other person.

And, that's probably one of the best reasons to not cheat for sex - it is not necessary. If you are any sort of a quality person someone out there will be happy to have you for a while at least. To think otherwise is to operate from a perspective of fear ("I'm worthless, nobody would want me") or scarcity ("all the good ones are taken"). Those are the issues that need to be addressed before you can take charge of your life and get that satisfaction you seek.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

thegatewalker said:


> This is just a lame copout. I have not got to have sex with my wife in 8 months and still have about 4 more. You know how many times I went out looking for sex none. You know why because I truely love my wife and understand the diffrence between love and lust so man up and find out for your self.


I agree with the justification for cheating being a copout.

But, I take exception to your love vs. lust statement. It sounds like an implied judgment against those who push for regular sex - as if those who refuse to wait several months don't truly love their spouses or are just using their bodies. That idea sir is offensive to me.

Are you very low drive or even interested in sex at all? Do you have your own sexual issues? Are you maybe using your ideal of "true love" as a copout for your fear to address this issue head-on?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> DTO, I have to say... I DO understand what you are getting at, and, while I agree with one part: the spouse who is refusing has, essentially, left the marriage... they have broken the vows, that, I will concede. It has become a piece of paper. It is really, in name only, right? So, what difference does it make if the other spouse cheats.. that is your point. I disagree, but that is my personal opinion. And, as Pidge said, we only have the OP side, not his wife's. I am certain that any number of things I have said regarding my husband and myself, he has a differing view. Of course, I would expect that. But that's not the point. The point is, the OP chose to stay in, what he has described as a sexless marriage. It was his choice to stay. He says he did it because he loves her. IMO, if you truly love someone that much, you won't cheat. Plain and simple. No matter how much you are pushed away, you won't cheat. However, if you are unsure of how you actually feel... yes, I can see how it CAN happen.
> 
> However, your car analogy...doesn't really work. My auto tech husband would tell you if a car is broken, you either
> 1. Fix it
> ...


I am not trying to say it does not matter if the refused spouse cheats.

My intent was to argue against the simplistic argument that if a guy leaves his wife over a lack of sex then he's a pig who was "only out for one thing". I wanted to emphasize that sex, at least for me, is one of several requirements (like civility, honesty, contribution to the household) that must be fulfilled for me to stay in a relationship. Any one of these requirements going unfulfilled over an extended period is enough to question and possibly end the marriage.

I simply used the car analogy to explain in an accessible way the difference between essential and "being the only thing", as I suspect some of the readers here may not appreciate the difference. OTOH, there are also some who know what I am trying to say but simply will not agree that sex is essential to marriage and that a lack of sex justifies divorce. This post is not intended for them and we will have to agree to disagree.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> If the sexual abuse is that bad, you owe it to yourself and your children to leave the relationship. It might be harder financially, but it is better to leave a dead marriage than to stay and continue to be abused by your spouse. What kind of example would this set for children?


This is something with which I agree. Moreover, I would suggest that the level of selfishness that exists impacts the refusers ability to parent. A person than into themselves will consider everything else inferior to their own personal satisfaction; that is a fact I have witnessed personally.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

tacoma said:


> The fact that something is illegal has never really held much sway over my decisions.
> Possible embarrassment is a small price to pay for the chance to stay close to my kid.
> She`s gonna rake him over the coals no matter what he does.


Actually, him getting raked over the coals is not automatic, but try your luck with a conviction for solicitation. My point is that the illegality of it will really hurt his chances in court. Plus any support you may have had in the split is out the window. 



> Honesty is merely convenient for everyone.
> Honesty towards the witch I described isn`t even remotely motivating.


I think lowering yourself is a bad way to conduct life, but to each their own.

I have often seen marriages likened to a contract, where you don't have any obligation if the other person does not fullfill their part of the bargin. The problem is that in the real world, if you think the other party has breached, you tell them that you aren't going to do your part. You don't lie or go behind their back.



> The idea of paying for sex doesn`t bother me.
> I can think of many reasons why I might choose to so so over engaging in a relationship or casual hook-up.


Well, I tend to think you are in the minority on this.



> He would be a pathetic guy for staying in a marriage where he`s abused and that might be the only motivation to voluntarily be without my kid for 90% of the time.
> Self-esteem
> Might be...it`s a close call.
> 
> ...


See, I do think he is being abused. And if his wife is abusing him this way, she is likely doing it in other ways as well. Sticking out for the kids teaches them bad marriage habits. I am not talking about working through issues, I am talking about disrespect and very unhealthy behavior. Would you wish your marriage on your kid? If not, why are you teaching them about that type of marriage and that it is acceptable?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

tacoma said:


> Agreed, it`s not just a sex thing it`s any "need" that`s being ignored purposely by a spouse.
> Especially those "needs" which a marital vow is supposed to uphold.


So how does paying for sex meet those needs? It does not.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

lamaga said:


> Well, TAG, I think #3(a) is finding a cordial woman who is also trapped in a similar situation for mutual consolation.
> 
> I believe you'll find some historical collaboration in, oh, say, the relationship of Jawaharlal Nehru and Lady Mountbatten. Or many other precedents.
> 
> No, it's not good, it's not what anyone wants, but it sometimes happens because it is far from the worst choice.


I actually think this is a less bad choice than paying for sex. I do think it introduces huge complications, in that it has the potential for attraction. In that sense, it is merely delaying the divorce until you have a better candidate lined up.

I will go back to what do you want to teach your children about marriage. Because they will figure out that something is going on. If you are carrying on an affair in a sexless marriage, you will be colder to your spouse, less affectionate, less giving. You will detach and they will detach from you. That is the blueprint you will be giving your children. 

So if a person loves their children so much that they can't bear to be separated from them, why are they teaching them that this is how marriage works.



> Ready to give me my cigarette yet? I'm lined up against the wall...


Grab your cigarette and a drink and grab a seat at the bar. I don't line people up for having different views (and if I did, our discussion here would not get you or Tacoma anywhere near the top of the list).


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> No, no, no. Women don't think about sex at all. We are chaste and tuck aspirin between our knees. Sex doesn't even cum across a womans radar. F-ing amazing how men think they have the lock on sex. Guess what boys? Women are nastier than you ever thought possible-----Chris Rock.


So its all the husbands fault that they don't want sex?


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> No one is immune from infidelity, I agree with that. The OP's entire post though was a threat. It was veiled as a "listen up, I have a nugget of information" kind of thread but really it was just to shake up women with his story. It did little for me informative wise but to infuriate my being and make me AGAIN realize that all relationships have two sides. If he is like this with strangers on the internet, imagine how he is with his own wife. Small wonder (to me) why she wasn't all 9 1/2 weeks on his ass. Sex at verbal gunpoint isn't sexy, neither is bragging to the world at how much he is getting now. That is private and should be respected. Never mind the whole human trafficking aspect. Blech. Sexual insecticide.


:iagree::iagree::iagree: Totally right here. It was basically a threat. Women: satisfy your husbands or they will go have sex with someone else. And he felt completely justified in saying it.


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

I havent waded through nearly 200 posts...I read the Op's original, some posts and then his latest one on page 12. 

I'm with him on this one. he wasn't being threatening, he was simply telling it as it is.
Marriages need to be worked on by BOTH parties. 

As a husband & father I have responsibilities to my wife and my children. As a wife & mother, my wife has responsibilities to her husband and her children. 

We might not 'like' all of the 'responsibilities' but it comes with the 'job'. The good things and teh not so good things.
You cant be a baker but refuse to handle flour!!!
You can't expect to be a wife and expect your husband to be 100%faithful if you aren't atleast making an effort to meet his needs!

Likewise a husband can't expect his wife to be 100% faithful if HE isn't atleast making an effort to meet HER needs. Cuts both ways.

For whatever reason, Askari's wife denied him sex for a long time....whilst I don't condone what he did, I can certainly understand it.

Instead of shooting him down, lets be happy for him (and his wife) that they have re-connected and are alot closer....and have not joined the ever increasing list of divorced couples.

Can't wait for my wife to 'see the light'!!!


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## Sporto (Jun 18, 2012)

Do not tell her. Telling her would only hurt her. What she doesn't know won't hurt her at this point. No good will come out of telling her.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

7737 said:


> I havent waded through nearly 200 posts...I read the Op's original, some posts and then his latest one on page 12.
> 
> I'm with him on this one. he wasn't being threatening, he was simply telling it as it is.
> Marriages need to be worked on by BOTH parties.
> ...


When it is based on a lie? Sorry, when I had "simply" an EA, I had the moral obligation to tell my husband the truth...that THAT need had been met elsewhere, and I regret the whole thing. Not for getting caught..I came clean on my own. My husband and I put EA and PA on the same level of betrayal. That, I am only stating to make a point. In order to continue in my marriage, I had the moral obligation to disclose to my husband that it even happened. I left the decision as to knowing what we talked about, how much, etc. up to my husband. But the point is that there is no way I could expect him to just accept that I wanted him and only him WITHOUT telling him the truth. And for him, the same thing. 

Regarding what the OP stated in the first place... he is telling the women here, some (if not most) of which are having troubles in the marriage. Not because they are not doing all they can to improve their marriages, but because the husbands have checked out. The problem with the original post is that sometimes, the offending spouse (saying that because it can be man OR woman) will cheat "just because they can"... and they will use the EXCUSE that "my needs weren't being met", when, in fact, they just had no interest in staying faithful. So, to the women (or men) who read the original post, without seeing the replies (for whatever reason)...they are automatically in the "it was my fault (s)he cheated"...how does that help? It doesn't. No matter what the reason given, the cheater is the one at fault for giving in to the temptation. He or she cannot blame the other spouse for his or her own actions. It can be stated that the other spouse's actions made him or her VULNERABLE to the temptation, but ultimately, the choice to cheat or not to cheat lies SOLELY with the offending spouse.


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

Sporto... I have no intention of telling her. What good would it do? None whatsoever.

What is good is that my wife and I are re-connecting. But as far as many people on here are concerned, I am a complete and utter ba$tard.....the fact my wife sexually abandoned me is all MY fault...she didnt want sex with ME... I am a fat, smelly, lazy good for nothing.

The fact that I may have been a loving, caring, providing husband and father married to a woman who was simply not interested in sex...Nah...not possible. Still all my fault.

I am an adulteror, a cheater, a cad, dishonest Ba$tard of a man.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

DTO said:


> Yes, it goes both ways. The man who refuses sex to his wife also has no legitimate claim on her fidelity. I shy away from saying "justified in cheating" simply because I think it's a bad idea all the way around.
> 
> Again, I never said that a man's sexual needs are the only ones that mattered. He could have other needs that are also deal-breakers. And of course the ladies have needs too.
> 
> ...


My experience with men is that many men also set up unreasonable emotional needs that cannot be met by their wife. These men use this as an excuse to withhold sex with their wife, to seriously ignore the wife and not cheat.

The needs of both men and women are very similar.. we all want basically the same things. Men and women tend to play the same kind of games on each other. 

That's what gets me about threads like this one... if I started a thread like this tell men that they had better put out for their wife every time their wife wants sex or their wife is going to cheat on them I think that the results of that thread would be very interesting. 

What I believe is that there are a sadly large number of people who see marriage as a fight of wills.. jockeying for who is in control. And these spouses, male or female figure out what means the most to their spouse... then they will withhold that as a way to gain power over their spouse and the marriage. It tips the power in the relationship in their favor.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

askari said:


> Hi All! I have been lurking in the shadows for a bit but have finally decided to 'sign up' as I want to share something with you all.
> 
> I have been married just over 15 years...we have a fairly good marriage except that sex was never my wifes favorite hobby. We had sex maybe 8-10 times a year.
> 
> ...


Gross....and I think the real question should be, if you aren't the one screwing your WIFE, then who is? :rofl:

Two way street, Pal. Two way street.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

More broadly, people need to have lower or near zero expectations of physical intimacy in marriage. That does not appear to be the #1 reason most people have in mind to BE married, maybe not even in the top 5. And if it is, then you (and I) were idiots for not broaching this subject in a meaningful mature way before marriage. Because all you're arguing about is why your mate isn't wired differently. And that's simply not going to change. The fact remains is that if there NO OTHER problems in my marriage, if everything was hunky-dory, this other thing, sex would still be out there like a black cloud. But it was only a black cloud because I had the misapprehension, for whatever reason, there was some 'thing' that could be fixed or changed. There is not. 

What I tell my wife is, 'this isn't normal but it's your normal, so there you have it.'


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> The needs of both men and women are very similar.. we all want basically the same things. Men and women tend to play the same kind of games on each other.


While I agree with the rest of your post, I don't think this is correct, at least in the aggregate. If men and women's needs truly match up that well, I think there would be a lot less issues in marriage. Rather, these problems arise because these needs, and how they are expressed, differ and many people, men and women, don't truly understand that.

In my experience, most people default to thinking that others think, feel and react they way they do to situations. Because of that, I think many men and women assume their spouse has the same needs they do. This disconnect causes a lot of problems from both sides.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

pidge70 said:


> I must have missed that part in the wedding vows. I promise to love , honor and cherish you. Forsaking all others unless you don't give me any then I can do what I want because our marriage is null and void.


Pidge,

There's a principle in ethics called 'concomitant obligation.' These are obligations that are incurred implicitly as the result of benefits, considerations or promises made to you. 

If, as a precondition of marriage, you had to promise to only ever eat food that your husband personally provided, then he would have a concomitant obligation to feed you. 

If he refused to do that, it would be a repudiation of that obligation and by extension, a breach of the covenant wherein the promise of exclusivity was made.

I realize it is horribly unromantic and a real mood-killer to express things in quasi-legal terms and cheating in any way, shape or form is obviously not the remedy when one partner can't or won't honor the implicit as well as the explicit promises of marriage


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

askari said:


> Sporto... I have no intention of telling her. What good would it do? None whatsoever.
> 
> What is good is that my wife and I are re-connecting. But as far as many people on here are concerned, I am a complete and utter ba$tard.....the fact my wife sexually abandoned me is all MY fault...she didnt want sex with ME... I am a fat, smelly, lazy good for nothing.
> 
> ...


Your wife's sex drive is reving up. As you age, your's will most likely go down. Your homones levels will most likely go down. ED is a very real possibility at least part of th time. All the while your wife's drive is going up.

I guess then you will be just fine with it when she starts cheating on you.

Yes you have been an adulteror, a cheater, a liar, a cad and dishonest. That said, you are human and made a bad choice. I believe very much that a person can change and improve.

I will bet that if you had let your wife know where you were emotionally.. that it was driving you away to the point of cheating that it would have impressed on her that there was a HUGE problem... one that was a lot larger than she realized.

A lot of cheating is a form of pressure valve. By you doing something to take the pressure off the marriage, you enabled your marriage to go on with the pretense that everything was ok. You let your wife not know how much her lack of desire for sex hurt you. 

So since you did not tell her the true depth of your problem, she is not responsible for not addressing the true depth of the problem. You own that because you have been dishonest with your wife.. your choice.

Before you get on my case about being a woman I cannot understand you.. my husband has withheld sex for years… his choice. I sadly understand the dynamics of this sort of problem all too well. I also understand the need of being honest and letting my spouse know in no uncertain terms of the damage he has done to our marriage.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Holy stereotype Batman. Many of us women understand sex just fine and many of us don't want conversation, flowers or compliments to get to that point.
> I have a question. Have men ever thought for a second that women don't actually lose their drive rather lose it for their partner? I have heard countless times from women I know that their sexual desire doesn't wane at all, just for their partner. Doesn't that make you wonder? I don't say this to be cruel, I just didn't like the ultimatum like tone on this thread. It goes both ways afterall.


Very good point but I would be great if the women in question (like their male counterparts) would have the decency and courage to file for divorce FIRST before they chose to have sex with a man other than their husband like *http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/49306-can-i-save-my-marriage.html#post844092*.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ocotillo said:


> Pidge,
> 
> There's a principle in ethics called 'concomitant obligation.' These are obligations that are incurred implicitly as the result of benefits, considerations or promises made to you.
> 
> ...


We know from many threads here that a awful lot of men expect that if their wife loses sexual desire because of things like low hormones, an emotional desert in their marriage, etc. she still has the OBLIGATION to put out sexually for her husband... .that even legitimate low sex drive is not an excuse for a woman....


So how about a man. Is a man with low hormons and/or ED obligated to service his wife sexually even if he cannot perform sexually?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> While I agree with the rest of your post, I don't think this is correct, at least in the aggregate. If men and women's needs truly match up that well, I think there would be a lot less issues in marriage. Rather, these problems arise because these needs, and how they are expressed, differ and many people, men and women, don't truly understand that.
> 
> In my experience, most people default to thinking that others think, feel and react they way they do to situations. Because of that, I think many men and women assume their spouse has the same needs they do. This disconnect causes a lot of problems from both sides.


It's a complicated topic. Both men and women want to be loved, charished, have loyalty and have physcial love in their relationships. The difference is in the emphasis individuals put on each of these.

This is why I really like the book "His Needs, Her Needs". It deals with these things on an individual basis not on the basis of ALL MEN what x and ALL WOMEN want Y.

For me for example sex (or physical initmacy) is #1 or #2 n my list of needs. A lot of people will say that's not usual for a woman. But for me what usual does not matter. What matters to me is what matters to me.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> Gross....and I think the real question should be, if you aren't the one screwing your WIFE, then who is? :rofl:
> 
> Two way street, Pal. Two way street.


There is such a high probability that his wife was getting her sex on the side for years... maybe her increased sex drive at home is because she broke up with her lover. :rofl:

There is such a high probability of that. Maybe both of them have been thinking that they have pulled the wool over the other's eyes.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> It's a complicated topic. Both men and women want to be loved, charished, have loyalty and have physcial love in their relationships. The difference is in the emphasis individuals put on each of these.
> 
> This is why I really like the book "His Needs, Her Needs". It deals with these things on an individual basis not on the basis of ALL MEN what x and ALL WOMEN want Y.
> 
> For me for example sex (or physical initmacy) is #1 or #2 n my list of needs. A lot of people will say that's not usual for a woman. But for me what usual does not matter. What matters to me is what matters to me.


Which is why I said in the agregate. I think we are pretty much in agreement on this. 

Where I had the problem was the general statement that these needs line up, or at least the implicit statement that the emphasis is the same. In general, it is not, with women tending to have a different emphasis than men. Not wrong, just different. 

Understanding that, IMO, is the first step toward figuring out each others needs and working on meeting them.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> There is such a high probability that his wife was getting her sex on the side for years... maybe her increased sex drive at home is because she broke up with her lover. :rofl:
> 
> There is such a high probability of that. Maybe both of them have been thinking that they have pulled the wool over the other's eyes.


That's the first thing that flashed into my mind as I read the original post!

Why? Because that's exactly what tends to happen. Man and wife are so busy with their own extra-curricular activities, neither one notices what the other is doing!

Plus I have run into this exact situation before, and that's what was going on. Except the guy wasn't paying for it. That's the real gross part...hope they have barrels of hand sanitizer at these 'happy ending' massage parlours.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> So how about a man. Is a man with low hormons and/or ED obligated to service his wife sexually even if he cannot perform sexually?



Well, I'm not advocating absolutism and I do understand that denying the exception to any 'rule' is a logical fallacy. (Dicto simpliciter) 

Any one of us could be in an auto accident tomorrow and be paralyzed from the neck down for the rest of our lives. 

The question, I think would be what legitimately constitutes an exception. To me personally, it would be more than, 'I don't wanna..."

If a man has exhausted every single medical option available and his flesh still fails him, I don't understand why he couldn't at least attend to his wife orally.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> There is such a high probability that his wife was getting her sex on the side for years... maybe her increased sex drive at home is because she broke up with her lover. :rofl:
> 
> There is such a high probability of that. Maybe both of them have been thinking that they have pulled the wool over the other's eyes.


Then us men (other than the OP) who get cheated on, are simply fools for having gotten married and being faithful to our wives? Worthy of ridicule?


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

morituri said:


> Then us men (other than the OP who) who get cheated on, are simply fools for having gotten married and being faithful to our wives? Worthy of ridicule?


No, most men who get cheated on are not fools, but this OP, who pompously came on here basically bragging about his happy endings kinda deserves the same treatement from his wife, IMHO. Karma. Sucks to be him.


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

Ha! I'm all about karma
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thegatewalker (Apr 29, 2012)

DTO said:


> I agree with the justification for cheating being a copout.
> 
> But, I take exception to your love vs. lust statement. It sounds like an implied judgment against those who push for regular sex - as if those who refuse to wait several months don't truly love their spouses or are just using their bodies. That idea sir is offensive to me.
> 
> Are you very low drive or even interested in sex at all? Do you have your own sexual issues? Are you maybe using your ideal of "true love" as a copout for your fear to address this issue head-on?


No not at all I and my wife are normaly hd but she is preg. That's not the point the point is cheating is wrong no matter what the case is and the op his self is trying to shake up the women. He basicly said hey women if you don't put out your man will cheat or look else where for a quick fix. This is not the case with me and, this is just my opinion, people that are cheating are wrong. Bottom line cheating is cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

morituri said:


> Then us men (other than the OP) who get cheated on, are simply fools for having gotten married and being faithful to our wives? Worthy of ridicule?


Was only talking about the OP... who is bragging about his cheating and basically being disrespectful to all women regardless of whether or not they are like his wife... by thinking that it's his place to chastize women in general.


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

haha, I haven't gone through all 15 pages here but I assume there's some pretty righteous scorn thrown at OP. 

One thing that it does make me wonder, though, is this:

Why should we think marriages should always only be a specific type of relationship, if some of the interests of the parties involved simply don't coincide?

Like, if one party doesn't particularly care about sex (note all the posters who have been told "I wouldn't care if I never had sex again" by their spouses) and the other does, why should we insist that the only options are one party suffering or divorce? 

Maybe partners whose sexual appetites are really really really far apart should be more willing to come to an understanding about outside sexual relations.
A person who says "I don't care if we ever have sex again" doesn't desire a monogamous sexual relationship with their spouse; they desire mutual chastity. If they get along in other areas, maybe having an understanding about outside sex is better than encouraging them to have duty sex. 

I don't know, and I'm not saying I *do* think this... just thinking out loud.


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Reread just your first four sentences of this post and you will see where my stereotype comment came from, nevermind your previous post. You paint most women as non-sexual.
> 
> Women don't need help to see "both ways". Do you really think women don't understand sex? I mean really? Come on. 50 Shades Of Grey is the hottest selling book and 10 million women in the U.S. bought it from Amazon alone. It is currently being translated in to 42 languages and a movie is in the works. Do you think they bought it for their husbands? No, they bought it to masturbate to. A book about a woman having the hottest sex of her life.
> 
> Women do nearly 80% of the buying in the U.S. Do you think David Beckham showing his massive package for Calvin Klein was an accident? Or was the Old Spice hottie just for gay men? Tom Brady modeling for Ugg boots....was that for men? What about every single calendar sold from firehouses around this country. Didn't think they still existed, did you? They do and and add nearly $15MM for the departments nationwide. It was for women, women who want to look and fantasize about hot men. Whoops, the cats out of the bag. Women think about sex plenty. Anybody who says otherwise is a damn fool. If your wife doesn't want sex, you either need to rethink your technique or rethink your relationship.



I don't always agree with brighteyes, but this was a hilarious and awesome post!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

karma*girl said:


> Ha! I'm all about karma
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I want your job!!! I want to be the karma fairy!!!!! :rofl:


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## Accipiter777 (Jul 22, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Reread just your first four sentences of this post and you will see where my stereotype comment came from, nevermind your previous post. You paint most women as non-sexual.
> 
> Women don't need help to see "both ways". Do you really think women don't understand sex? I mean really? Come on. 50 Shades Of Grey is the hottest selling book and 10 million women in the U.S. bought it from Amazon alone. It is currently being translated in to 42 languages and a movie is in the works. Do you think they bought it for their husbands? No, they bought it to masturbate to. A book about a woman having the hottest sex of her life.
> 
> Women do nearly 80% of the buying in the U.S. Do you think David Beckham showing his massive package for Calvin Klein was an accident? Or was the Old Spice hottie just for gay men? Tom Brady modeling for Ugg boots....was that for men? What about every single calendar sold from firehouses around this country. Didn't think they still existed, did you? They do and and add nearly $15MM for the departments nationwide. *It was for women, women who want to look and fantasize about hot men. Whoops, the cats out of the bag. Women think about sex plenty.* Anybody who says otherwise is a damn fool. If your wife doesn't want sex, you either need to rethink your technique or rethink your relationship.



This is an unrealistic view of man... women buy into it... just like men buy into porn... unrealistic view of what sex should be...

50 shades of Grey? unrealistic.... just like porn....


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Accipiter777 said:


> This is an unrealistic view of man... women buy into it... just like men buy into porn... unrealistic view of what sex should be...
> 
> 50 shades of Grey? unrealistic.... just like porn....


Yeah, I was going to say that anyone who comes away from a reading of 50 shades with anything more than a giggle doesn`t understand sex and REALLY doesn't understand BDSM in particular.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SoWhat said:


> haha, I haven't gone through all 15 pages here but I assume there's some pretty righteous scorn thrown at OP.
> 
> One thing that it does make me wonder, though, is this:
> 
> ...


I think you have missed the major point here. 

If the comes to an open marriage agreement, that's their business. Few here would care. The issue about the OP is that he has made a unilateral decision on having sex outside the marriage. And he's lying to his wife about it.

There is also the whole "rest of the story" thing... we are only hearing his side of the story put in a way that he thinks justifies his actions. We would need his wife's side of the story as well to know if she is really withhold sex or if it's an excuse he's using.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Reread just your first four sentences of this post and you will see where my stereotype comment came from, nevermind your previous post. You paint most women as non-sexual.
> 
> Women don't need help to see "both ways". Do you really think women don't understand sex? I mean really? Come on. 50 Shades Of Grey is the hottest selling book and 10 million women in the U.S. bought it from Amazon alone. It is currently being translated in to 42 languages and a movie is in the works. Do you think they bought it for their husbands? No, they bought it to masturbate to. A book about a woman having the hottest sex of her life.
> 
> Women do nearly 80% of the buying in the U.S. Do you think David Beckham showing his massive package for Calvin Klein was an accident? Or was the Old Spice hottie just for gay men? Tom Brady modeling for Ugg boots....was that for men? What about every single calendar sold from firehouses around this country. Didn't think they still existed, did you? They do and and add nearly $15MM for the departments nationwide. It was for women, women who want to look and fantasize about hot men. Whoops, the cats out of the bag. Women think about sex plenty. Anybody who says otherwise is a damn fool. If your wife doesn't want sex, you either need to rethink your technique or rethink your relationship.


Welcome back.

Wow, though. Women are buying 50 Shades of Grey to masturbate to? What a lack of imagination they must have. Got about 10 pages in and had to gag/laugh/edit the horrible writing.

FWIW, been masturbating since about the age of 12, and have never needed anything buy my own ingenuity.

Lucky me.


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I think you have missed the major point here.
> 
> If the comes to an open marriage agreement, that's their business. Few here would care. The issue about the OP is that he has made a unilateral decision on having sex outside the marriage. And he's lying to his wife about it.
> 
> There is also the whole "rest of the story" thing... we are only hearing his side of the story put in a way that he thinks justifies his actions. We would need his wife's side of the story as well to know if she is really withhold sex or if it's an excuse he's using.


No, I wasn't talking about OP's case directly. I think OP is a jerk, probably. 
I was speaking more broadly.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Accipiter777 said:


> This is an unrealistic view of man... women buy into it... just like men buy into porn... unrealistic view of what sex should be...
> 
> 50 shades of Grey? unrealistic.... just like porn....



50 Shades Of Grey *IS* porn in the purest sense of the word. The word was coined to describe written material and that is still definition #1 in most English dictionaries.

I agree that it's unrealistic and disagree with the premise that interest in porn necessarily translates into interest in real sex with a living partner.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

askari said:


> Hi All! I have been lurking in the shadows for a bit but have finally decided to 'sign up' as I want to share something with you all.
> 
> I have been married just over 15 years...we have a fairly good marriage except that sex was never my wifes favorite hobby. We had sex maybe 8-10 times a year.
> 
> ...


Wow... a lot of pages on this thread to go through...and I just didn't make it through. I am pretty sure that there are camps on both sides as it's a very polarizing issue. 

Notwithstanding all of that ... askari, the thing is that just as quickly as your wife's libido popped up, it could just as easily go back down... and you could be left right where you were before UNLESS you two work together to address the issues that were in play before - because they are likely still there and may just be swept under the rug for now.

BOTH of you own equal responsibility in your marital relationship, but YOU own the sole responsibility for going outside of your marriage and the sole responsibility for being honest about that.


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## Mr B (Feb 6, 2009)

From what I read on here a lot of the married women are not having sex because their husbands are no longer interested so it isn't always just one sided when it comes to a low or no sex marriage.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Accipiter777 said:


> This is an unrealistic view of man... women buy into it... just like men buy into porn... unrealistic view of what sex should be...
> 
> 50 shades of Grey? unrealistic.... just like porn....


I didn't say it was realistic, now did I? I said women think about sex plenty. What I was saying is a poster claiming women don't understand sex. We do and anybody who says otherwise has never made a woman orgasm. A great orgasm can make a woman stick around for years or a liftetime.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

I dont know if this has been pointed out yet its a long thread..but if sex is so important to have an emotional bond with your wife then how does going to a massage parlor to get "relief' if she doesnt have sex enough adding up with that?Did having sex with the prostitutes help you emotionally bond with your wife or did you emotionalyl bond with the prostitutes or what?

I never could understand that line of thinking..I need sex with you but its not "just for " the sex release its to bring me closer to YOU emotionally so if you dont do it as much as I need for that to happen I'll go get "it' somewhere else.In fact I'll subsitute you with a rank stranger prostitute...

Also in general I personally woudl be sickened if I thought my husband was only complying to have sex with me(more than he was really interested in ) because i threatened him in any way ..physically or emotionally with some sort of negative reprecussion for not uppping the amount..or performing any specific sex acts he wasnt comfortable with..Just would sort of ruin the mood' for me when he complied..it woud nt feel like his 100% free will ..mind body adn soul was with me..its called coersion which is very sad..

Dallas


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

dallasapple said:


> I dont know if this has been pointed out yet its a long thread..but if sex is so important to have an emotional bond with your wife then how does going to a massage parlor to get "relief' if she doesnt have sex enough adding up with that?Did having sex with the prostitutes help you emotionally bond with your wife or did you emotionalyl bond with the prostitutes or what?
> 
> I never could understand that line of thinking..I need sex with you but its not "just for " the sex release its to bring me closer to YOU emotionally so if you dont do it as much as I need for that to happen I'll go get "it' somewhere else.In fact I'll subsitute you with a rank stranger prostitute...
> 
> ...


Apparently that "bond" is so important to him that any woman will do.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Oh, don't get me wrong....the novel is laughable. Any woman who needs this book to get her bits in a tit lacks imagination. I would say the same about a man needing porn though.
> The entire book was written for women, they bought it and made it a number one best seller. If sex wasn't something they thought about, why waste $20?
> This whole notion that women don't want sex is crap. We do. We do in spades. We buy all those products that show sex in them. Are men buying any of this? Noooooo.


i think most women buy into the fantasy of it through books, tv shows, movies and the like more than anything.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

2nd_t!me iz_best said:


> i think most women buy into the fantasy of it through books, tv shows, movies and the like.


And men buy in to Jenna's acting skills and the mere sight makes us quiver. Not. A. Chance.
Wanna say Uncle now? I friggin dare ya!


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> And men buy in to Jenna's acting skills and the mere sight makes us quiver. Not. A. Chance.
> Wanna say Uncle now? I friggin dare ya!


i completely agree with this.
porn men get into is just as much crap.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Women do want sex I just think in general they may be more particular as to when and who they will agree to have it with..I think we are more likely DENY ourselves the physical realease NOT just our partner) even if we are craving it if we sense the person is a threat emotionally.And just go without or just take care of the sex realease part on our own untill it feels safer or even more dignified to be with our spouse.

I think biologically too women are for various reasons goign to naturallly have more ebbs and flows than men ..IOW have a less "consistant " level of desire or drive..I went from fien to have sex once or twice a week..to where I just never felt satisfied when I was pregnant I was sex crazed...and then again when nursing I pretty much just tolerated sex a few times a month...it actually made me nauseated liek I felt like I was going to vomit(liek the flu) during sex..especially if I had an orgasm..I would turn green ..

As well as there are times like I mentioned I can be physcially cravign sex but so emotionally distraught upset or angry(feelign very unconnected with husband) that it would feel completely undiginfied "emotionally" like humiliating to have sex emotionally even though my body is "on"..

Throw in all the meds she may have to take includign ironically hormonal BC can cause a lowering libido..AND LOL>>women have far by far I think reasons that sex can be painful or cause discomfort being the mechanics of it her being the one that is being "entered"..and even OS is far more "intrusive" for a woman and is more likely to cause some sort of physcial discomfort then the other way around..including our gag reflex being aggravated by just the contact..

Her sexuality I think is more 'complicated" not the same as women dont like sex as "much" as men or need sex "less"..or that she rarely thinks aobut it in comparsison to men in general..I can be thinking about sex all day long and physically desiring it doesnt mean I am willing to engage in it..just to get "release"..

Just my 02..

Dallas


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Apparently that "bond" is so important to him that any woman will do.


Thats what I thought..its "more than just sex honey I love you and I want you and I bond to YOU that way so if you say no more than I like I'll hire someone to do it"..

Dallas


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Suddenly I feel the need to go out and buy me a surfboard.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> I think biologically too women are for various reasons goign to naturallly have more ebbs and flows than men ..IOW have a less "consistant " level of desire or drive..I went from fien to have sex once or twice a week..to where I just never felt satisfied when I was pregnant I was sex crazed...and then again when nursing I pretty much just tolerated sex a few times a month...it actually made me nauseated liek I felt like I was going to vomit(liek the flu) during sex..especially if I had an orgasm..I would turn green ..
> 
> As well as there are times like I mentioned I can be physcially cravign sex but so emotionally distraught upset or angry(feelign very unconnected with husband) that it would feel completely undiginfied "emotionally" like humiliating to have sex emotionally even though my body is "on"..
> 
> ...


all crap excuses.
thats what .02 gets ya.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

dallasapple said:


> Women do want sex I just think in general they may be more particular as to when and who they will agree to have it with..I think we are more likely DENY ourselves the physical realease NOT just our partner) even if we are craving it if we sense the person is a threat emotionally.And just go without or just take care of the sex realease part on our own untill it feels safer or even more dignified to be with our spouse.
> 
> I think biologically too women are for various reasons goign to naturallly have more ebbs and flows than men ..IOW have a less "consistant " level of desire or drive..I went from fien to have sex once or twice a week..to where I just never felt satisfied when I was pregnant I was sex crazed...and then again when nursing I pretty much just tolerated sex a few times a month...it actually made me nauseated liek I felt like I was going to vomit(liek the flu) during sex..especially if I had an orgasm..I would turn green ..
> 
> ...


Women may be more "complicated" sexually but really it is about what is between the ears. If we are loved and cared for, our legs are open like 7-11. 
Men. Stop with the lingerie that only makes us feel fat or the flowers that dies after 3 days. Take us camping. Pack up the SUV with 2 sleeping bags, take us to a campsite, show us that you can light a fire and cook over wood and take us out fishing in the morning. 
My girlfriends have NEVER had hotter sex in their lives than when they were out with their husbands camping. Seeing their men pitch a tent, light a fire, protect and catch food? HOT. Want to know what a woman thinks when she experiences that? He is MY man and he is everything. Do. It.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Another point I wanted to make soemone said thats why you should have premariatal sex so you will knwo if you ae "sexually compatible..LOL!!!...I got married when I was 20..we had a tumultuous 6 year long realtionship befoer ahnd includign I had a baby when I was 14 he ran off(he was only 16 I forgave him sense) came back I wa eganged to him by 17 and we had a "pattern" of sex pretty much..Im 44 adn Im telling you all that sex before marriaage was NO PRDICTOR of the sexual highs and lows or our "comapitibility" whatsoever.Including the fact after marriage he thought it was going ot be sex for him whenever the urge hit which was a coupel times a day adn that was NOT our deal before marraige at all...Sure you might be able to get a "feel" (no pun intended) of what is completely off limits or in general if you "enjoy sex' but there is no predictability on how often you will both want it (like say 3 times a week) for the next 60 years..

Dallas


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Waht a spicy way to put it..LOL!!

QUOTE:Women may be more "complicated" sexually but really it is about what is between the ears. If we are loved and cared for, our legs are open like 7-11. 
END QUOTE

In that ONE way yes if a woman really beleives she is loved adn cared for (adn respected) outside of bed she will be more interested in sex more consistently beign a lot of womens sexual shal we say "freedom" thrives on feeling secure with the person shes expressign that with...LOTS of the times I felt any aversion like I said it wasnt physical it was emotional ....where I shut down..

Havign said that I did lose physcal interest at times for various physcal reason liek antidepressent..as I mentioned when I was nursing it was weird I felt litterally nauseated like I needed to thrwo up..Im sure that was related to brain chemicals ..I was bonding with an infant maybe I was gettign an overload of some of the saem chemicals involved with nursing and sex..

Dallas


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

2nd_t!me iz_best said:


> all crap excuses.
> thats what .02 gets ya.


LOL!! ..Why would I need any "excuses" in regards to sex?:scratchhead:

I've been married for 24 years by the way and I dont think Im in any position to need to offer you(or any other man including my husband) any "excuses" regarding my sexuality..It is what it is no excuses needed..

Dallas


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Quote:Stop with the lingerie that only makes us feel fat or the flowers that dies after 3 days. End Quote..

Depending on the lingrei it makes me feel more "sexy"..but hey I can wear it in the tent when we go camping..(wink)..and flowers are good but I dotn want them in "exchange for sex'..Im not that easy .LOL!!I hate that "buy her some flowers and unload the dishwahser and she will stop droop and roll right on the spot!Its more liek be INTERESTED in HER whole being not just wavign shiny things around and "tricks" up yor sleeve to "get her" to want sex.Its insulting..

Dallas


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> LOL!! ..Why would I need any "excuses" in regards to sex?:scratchhead:
> 
> I've been married for 24 years by the way and I dont think Im in any position to need to offer you(or any other man including my husband) any "excuses" regarding my sexuality..It is what it is no excuses needed..
> 
> Dallas


2nd wasn't saying you need to make excuses for him or for your husband. He was stating merely that many, if not all, of the things you listed int hat particular post were excuses... plain and simple. The gag reflex for oral can be combated easily. Some women actually want sex more right after having a baby, including while breastfeeding... for two years. I know I did. I wanted sex a lot during the majority of my pregnancy. The only time that slowed down was in the last month, which is fairly normal. But my drive revved back up as soon as the doctor removed the staples from my belly. 

And, you can't say we women necessarily have more "ebbs and flows" to our sexuality. Many men go thru the same, or similar. They just don't show it like a lot of women do... or, they don't play the "hormone card" as often. Oh God, can you imagine if they did??? 

Btw brighteyes...


> *Women may be more "complicated" sexually but really it is about what is between the ears. If we are loved and cared for, our legs are open like 7-11.*
> Men. Stop with the lingerie that only makes us feel fat or the flowers that dies after 3 days. Take us camping. Pack up the SUV with 2 sleeping bags, take us to a campsite, show us that you can light a fire and cook over wood and take us out fishing in the morning.


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Seriously tho, for the most part, that is correct. However, I couldn't handle camping. Fishing? No way lol. He can buy me flowers. Tho my favorite is carnation, a rosebush will do nicely. I can plant it and enjoy it for years to come!


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> 2nd wasn't saying you need to make excuses for him or for your husband. He was stating merely that many, if not all, of the things you listed int hat particular post were excuses... plain and simple. The gag reflex for oral can be combated easily. Some women actually want sex more right after having a baby, including while breastfeeding... for two years. I know I did. I wanted sex a lot during the majority of my pregnancy. The only time that slowed down was in the last month, which is fairly normal. But my drive revved back up as soon as the doctor removed the staples from my belly.
> 
> And, you can't say we women necessarily have more "ebbs and flows" to our sexuality. Many men go thru the same, or similar. They just don't show it like a lot of women do... or, they don't play the "hormone card" as often. Oh God, can you imagine if they did???
> 
> ...


you know me well.
at least someone has some much too uncommon common sense.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Quote :2nd wasn't saying you need to make excuses for him or for your husband. He was stating merely that many, if not all, of the things you listed int hat particular post were excuses... plain and simple. The gag reflex for oral can be combated easily. Some women actually want sex more right after having a baby, including while breastfeeding... for two years. I know I did. I wanted sex a lot during the majority of my pregnancy. The only time that slowed down was in the last month, which is fairly normal. But my drive revved back up as soon as the doctor removed the staples from my belly. 

END quote..

Yeah but im NOT you ..Just becasue I have had variousl differnt reasons that I was uninterested in sex and you had to opposite happen doesn mean mine are "exuses" they are REASONS and some of them other women have expreinced and soem of them other women havent but have had other reaosn for dips that I may have not.I was thrwoing out things that have happened to me that can affect a females libido..

In fact you siad the only reason your slowed down was towards the end of your pregnancy? O.K I'll do it your way thats just an EXCUSE...I was horny as cat in heat all the way up til my water broke ...So why dont you stop makign excuses?

See how when you had a "reason " it was "fairly normal...but my reasons were "exuses"..hmmm...

And there is no "hormone card" I know PLENTY of women who have husbands who have for various reasons have low testosterone..and its easily remedied with homrone replacement or if he cant take it for other health reasons they just adjust down to a pace he can "keep up with' ..I dont think thats "playing a card" its a reality.But in GENERAL men have LESS hormonal ebbs and flows to the extent women do over thier lifetime..And its also presumptuous to assume the "gag relfex" is easily gotten over ...my POINT was its something that has to be CONTENDED with for many woman in the FIRST place and some have no issues some do adn can get over it but soem CAN not..

Dallas


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> Quote :2nd wasn't saying you need to make excuses for him or for your husband. He was stating merely that many, if not all, of the things you listed int hat particular post were excuses... plain and simple. The gag reflex for oral can be combated easily. Some women actually want sex more right after having a baby, including while breastfeeding... for two years. I know I did. I wanted sex a lot during the majority of my pregnancy. The only time that slowed down was in the last month, which is fairly normal. But my drive revved back up as soon as the doctor removed the staples from my belly.
> 
> END quote..
> 
> ...


wow
lol


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Seriously tho, for the most part, that is correct. However, I couldn't handle camping. Fishing? No way lol. He can buy me flowers. Tho my favorite is carnation, a rosebush will do nicely. I can plant it and enjoy it for years to come!


My girlfriend's the same way! 
I'm an outdoors fanatic. She says "I love the way pollution smells!" But she'll take her flowers, thank-you-very-much.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Oh geeze... this debate is STILL going on? Ok .. as far as oral goes.. sure some people can get past it.. and some can't.. everyone has "personal preferences" that much is obvious.. no need to bash someone for what they like and don't like. I say if your with someone.. then accept them for who they are.. don't try to change them or force them to do something they aren't comfortable with. Of course.. if you KNOW your not sexually compatible before making a lifelong commitment to that person.. well thats your own damn fault imo and you will just have to work at it or leave and let them be with someone who is more compatible. Oh sorry working but i disagree with the.. lack of sex being abuse. If that was the case then anytime you denied it.. you would be guilty of abuse as well. Clearly we all have different POVs when it comes to sex in a relationship.. however i think the main issue for this topic is... 


Cheating is it justified or no?

Personally I say.. no... if your unhappy then leave.. it's much better then cheating imo and if there are kids.. well arrangements can be made and such. Don't stay just because of the kids.. that will just cause an unhealthy and destructive environment for them to grow up in as well as for you to deal with. That is just my POV on this matter.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> Yeah but im NOT you ..Just becasue I have had variousl differnt reasons that I was uninterested in sex and you had to opposite happen doesn mean mine are "exuses" they are REASONS and some of them other women have expreinced and soem of them other women havent but have had other reaosn for dips that I may have not.I was thrwoing out things that have happened to me that can affect a females libido..
> 
> *In fact you siad the only reason your slowed down was towards the end of your pregnancy? O.K I'll do it your way thats just an EXCUSE...I was horny as cat in heat all the way up til my water broke ...So why dont you stop makign excuses?*
> 
> ...


My dear, I never said it was a REASON. I merely said it slowed down... Never said I stopped having sex either. The only REASONS I have given for not having sex with my husband have been when I had staples in my stomach from all three c-sections and the doctors say "don't have sex for 6 weeks after giving birth" (I never waited that long, only til after the staples were removed). And then, the staples in my upper abdomen from when I had weight loss surgery. And when I have run a fever, or been delirious.... or even when my husband has been sick. Illness is a reason. Surgery is a reason. Hospitalization is a reason. Hormone fluctuation is an excuse. And yes, I HAVE used hormone fluctuation as an excuse for many things. My husband recognized them as excuses and called me on them LOL. Even at my lowest points, I was STILL able to have sex with him, satisfy him, even when I was unable to orgasm. It didn't make me enjoy the act any less. But I knew it was what HE needed... that release. And I was more than happy to provide it for him. I never used the hormone fluctuation as an excuse to get out of having sex. However, I HAVE used it to get MORE sex.  And yes, he is very much aware of that... and more than happy to oblige lol.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Seriously tho, for the most part, that is correct. However, I couldn't handle camping. Fishing? No way lol. He can buy me flowers. Tho my favorite is carnation, a rosebush will do nicely. I can plant it and enjoy it for years to come!


AHA! We differ on something for once!! lol... I just LOVE camping, fishing, hiking, ect. I prefer it over being in the city.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

And another thing! LOL!!..Women are two times as susseptibel to depression as men are (after puberty go figure) and during her childbearing years then her risk goes down around age 50(go figure)..and depression FACT can cause loss of sexual deisire and ironcially so can MOST of the antidepressents used to treat it..agian those arent 'excuses" that are facts..

Also just a freindly nudge..you said can you imagine if men were playing the 'hormone card"?? well I dotn know if they "play any cards' but do to a little research..I think you might be surprised at how many women are living with FAR less sex than they desire..start with ..um..the "A Sex Starved Wife"...its a MUCH bigger problem than most realize like not that far off in % as men do..its just not as talked about because it doesnt fit the "sterotype that all the men are raring to go 24 /7 and the wife is a frigid prude..So women in relationships wheer shes the one being rejected do NOT talk about it as much becasue she is more likely to blame herself and think there is something wrong with HER becasue after all dont ALL men want sex 24/7?And MEN dont fess up to it as often becasue for fear of his manliness being called into question ..its his ego at stake...On the flip side many men have NO problem openly complaining he wants more sex wife wont give it..and more women are willing to admit they are the ones less interested in sex..because there is far less "stigma" attached to that becasue of accepted sterotypical beleiefs..YES its more prominent for a woman to have a low or non existennt drive but the problem in reverse is far more prevenalnt than what people assume..

I have met many of the woman in this situation and oddly though have only ever seen a few men in 7 years of being on marriage forums admit they are the ones not interested..2 ladies I met without even searchign for them just sort of bumped into them like you and I have here are in marriages where 6 months one evne it was a year and 1/2 the husband rejects her sexual advances..These women WANT sex they just accept they arent going to get it like they imagined they would..and by accept I mena they struggle with it regularly but they stick by him..

Dallas


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

askari said:


> Ouch!
> I said I didn't regret it but I also said that I'm not proud of what I did.
> What happened happened...I didn't get busted and I didnt catch anything and no it was not illegal - massages with a happy ending are not against the law in ALL countries.
> 
> ...


I am glade you feel so happy with your deception. I think you have a character issue, maybe that was why your wife did not bother with you early on. 

It is funny you assume that her renewed interest in you is due to hormones. How do you know that her renewed interest is not due to a breakup of an affair. Are you sure that your wife is not as deceptive as you? Don't worry you are not alone. Many men cannot believe that a woman who will not have sex with them will have sex with another man. 


The thing is that your "sex is important to men therefore we are entitled to cheat" is way outdated. Women cheating is on par with men these days. Seems something is missing in their relationships too and so is the entitlement to outside fun. The chances that your wife has been cheating on you is about 40%. The odds are not in your favor. 

Don't celebrate yet, women are much better at hiding infidelity than men. You may never find out. I hope that is as happy a peice of news as your renewed sexual relief in your wife instead of a sex worker.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Quote:My dear, I never said it was a REASON. I merely said it slowed down... End quote..

Yes you had an EXCUSE that you used to slow down..I never slowed down I sped up ..I didnt have any "crap excuses' to have less sex in the last months(or month) of pregnancy that all I was pointing out.

Just my O2..

Dallas


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

No its not "O.K" to hire prostitues or cheat in any way if you want more sex then you are getting for a man or a woman..the more honorale thing to do is just say you cant live with it and give up the other beneiftis of the marriage..staying in the marriage just 'cheating" especially when you are still engaging in the 'not enough sex' with your spouse also enjoying the other benefits in marraige like comapnionship and getttign to raise the kids together and sharing of bills etc is compeltey selfish..

Dallas


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> Quote:My dear, I never said it was a REASON. I merely said it slowed down... End quote..
> 
> *Yes you had an EXCUSE that you used to slow down*..I never slowed down I sped up ..I didnt have any "crap excuses' to have less sex in the last months(or month) of pregnancy that all I was pointing out.
> 
> ...


Sigh.... my _DRIVE_ slowed.... activity did not. We were still quite active up to the point when the doctor hospitalized me to take the baby out. pre-e is some hard stuff to deal with. 
Anyway, back to the topic at hand (oops, pun not intended  )


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

lol ok my drive slowed down to non existent for all of my pregnancies.. and during this time.. my H went without but we still found other non sexual ways to spend together. (Didn't stop him from groping or getting behind me and pretending to ride though.. lmao)


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Gaia said:


> AHA! We differ on something for once!! lol... I just LOVE camping, fishing, hiking, ect. I prefer it over being in the city.


Used to love camping as a kid. Never liked fishing. I think the reason camping isn't much of an appeal is because I live in the middle of nowhere lol. Also, I grew up in a small town. Always hated big cities. Chicago suburbs scared the hell outta me when we lived there. Wasn't too keen on West Palm Beach either. But, suburb wasn't AS bad... I got used to it. But I prefer the very small town seclusion.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Gaia said:


> lol ok my drive slowed down to non existent for all of my pregnancies.. and during this time.. my H went without but we still found other non sexual ways to spend together. (Didn't stop him from groping or getting behind me and pretending to ride though.. lmao)


What a "crap excuse" to be so mean to him..

You didnt "take care of his need to release" :biggrinangelA:

Sigh using the old "hormonal card" not good..:rofl:

I wanted sex 24/7 I didnt make any excuses when I was pregnant.

Dallas


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

Gaia said:


> AHA! We differ on something for once!! lol... I just LOVE camping, fishing, hiking, ect. I prefer it over being in the city.


and sex while camping is good, just dont get a camp site on a grade :/
makes it very annoying.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

morituri said:


> Suddenly I feel the need to go out and buy me a surfboard.


Surf a wave for me Mori. Gawd do I miss San Diego and Wind and Sea.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> What a "crap excuse" to be so mean to him..
> 
> You didnt "take care of his need to release" :biggrinangelA:
> 
> ...


^^ Oh yes.. I was just so utterly cruel to him... shame shame on me for not just jumping and riding his dong everyday while pregnant. Honestly.. though.. if i were like other women.. whose sex drive INCREASED during sex... I'm pretty damn sure he would have went into hiding.. lmfao


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Gaia said:


> ^^ Oh yes.. I was just so utterly cruel to him... shame shame on me for not just jumping and riding his dong everyday while pregnant. Honestly.. though.. if i were like other women.. whose sex drive INCREASED during sex... I'm pretty damn sure he would have went into hiding.. lmfao


Oh that's right... he looked at it as recuperation time!


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Gaia said:


> lol ok my drive slowed down to non existent for all of my pregnancies.. and during this time.. my H went without but we still found other non sexual ways to spend together. (Didn't stop him from groping or getting behind me and pretending to ride though.. lmao)


Oh one other SIDE note..my husand LOST interest in sex (not completely but from can never get enouhg (liek 2 tiems a day IF I would have let him to approaching me maybe once MAYBE 2 times a week Im assuming because he couldnt stand not gettign the physcial realease but i think it was messign with his head how my body was changing and the idea a "baby " was in there LOL!!So guess what ?I WENT without becasue I woudl have been horrified thinking it was grossign him out or makign him "uncomfortable " havign sex with me..NO THANKS..I just suffered it through..I didnt look at him adn tell him it was an 'excuse' and he needed to perforn his "responsibiliy" on me..GROSS!

I didnt do what he did to me which was pout..get angry tell me I was "abnormal" and on and on when I lost interest ..in fact the way he treated me over not wanting as much sex with him as he did me did a lot of harm to my interest on top of any other reasons(or is it excuses?) that I had..I mean mine wasnt just "losign interest" mine was just havign a NORMAL but lower sex drive than him to start with(hes one of those never satisfied kind of guys like a motor than never slows down) ...then at various tmes(over TWENTY FOUR years) I had dips too..but his reaction to that Im saying drove me away even further did NOT endear me to him..whatsover..

Dallas


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## thegatewalker (Apr 29, 2012)

Lol naw I would hop on
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Gaia said:


> ^^ Oh yes.. I was just so utterly cruel to him... shame shame on me for not just jumping and riding his dong everyday while pregnant. Honestly.. though.. if i were like other women.. whose sex drive INCREASED during sex... I'm pretty damn sure he would have went into hiding.. lmfao


Hmm..thts funny thats exaclty what my husand did evne thouhg my sex drive increased to what normally would have MATCHED his..his just "retreated' when I was pregnant..I know its a fairly normal "excuse' men have when their wives are pregnant it freaks them out.

Dallas


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

thegatewalker said:


> Lol naw I would hop on
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


^^Says the man who asked for a few days break after a lil while...


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> Hmm..thts funny thats exaclty what my husand did evne thouhg my sex drive increased to what normally would have MATCHED his..his just "retreated' when I was pregnant..I know its a fairly normal "excuse' men have when their wives are pregnant it freaks them out.
> 
> Dallas


lmao it's not that he would be freaked out... it's just that before pregnancy.. I'd ride him till he was sore three times a day on a daily basis... lol So if it was an INCREASE from that... like i said.. I'm sure he would have ran for the hills. (Even though he claims he wouldn't... lol)


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Gaia said:


> lol ok my drive slowed down to non existent for all of my pregnancies.. and during this time.. my H went without but we still found other non sexual ways to spend together. (Didn't stop him from groping or getting behind me and pretending to ride though.. lmao)


Wait a minute you siad you found other "non sexual ways" to spend time together and this went on for months?So Im assuming then that your husband lost his emotoinal connection with you during this time right?

Dallas


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Gaia said:


> lmao it's not that he would be freaked out... it's just that before pregnancy.. I'd ride him till he was sore three times a day on a daily basis... lol So if it was an INCREASE from that... like i said.. I'm sure he would have ran for the hills. (Even though he claims he wouldn't... lol)


Oh ....gotcha..

Dallas


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> Wait a minute you siad you found other "non sexual ways" to spend time together and this went on for months?*So Im assuming then that your husband lost his emotoinal connection with you during this time right?*
> 
> Dallas


Why would you assume this? Sorry if I am mistaken, but that makes me think of the stereotype about men only getting emotional needs met via sex... Sex isn't at the top of chart for all men as far as needs being met. You should know that by now! 
Some actually put it around the middle... and some, unfortunately, put it to the bottom of the list.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Why would you assume this? Sorry if I am mistaken, but that makes me think of the stereotype about men only getting emotional needs met via sex... Sex isn't at the top of chart for all men as far as needs being met. You should know that by now!
> Some actually put it around the middle... and some, unfortunately, put it to the bottom of the list.


sorry I was being sarcastic..it was eluded to by the Op sex keeps the man emotionally connected to the wife..I was trying ot make a point ..I was actually assuming her husband had no problem staying emotionally connected to her even is a sexual dry spell..

Dallas


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> Wait a minute you siad you found other "non sexual ways" to spend time together and this went on for months?So Im assuming then that your husband lost his emotoinal connection with you during this time right?
> 
> Dallas


As post below states... why would you assume this? Do you think men are incapable of connecting emotionally in ways aside from sex? 



Maricha75 said:


> Why would you assume this? Sorry if I am mistaken, but that makes me think of the stereotype about men only getting emotional needs met via sex... Sex isn't at the top of chart for all men as far as needs being met. You should know that by now!
> Some actually put it around the middle... and some, unfortunately, put it to the bottom of the list.


:iagree: My man is just one of those who doesn't put sex at the top of his list. It's in the middle I believe.. so joking around, talking, going on walks, ect are all things we did. I guess that seems bizzare to alot of people apparently.... lmao


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> sorry I was being sarcastic..it was eluded to by the Op sex keeps the man emotionally connected to the wife..I was trying ot make a point ..I was actually assuming her husband had no problem staying emotionally connected to her even is a sexual dry spell..
> 
> Dallas


Ah... ok.. gotcha... hard to tell when someone's joking on here sometimes... lmao


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## thegatewalker (Apr 29, 2012)

No I didn't. Lose emotional connection awith my wife at all we just started talking and hanging out more. Don't get me wrong some times its kind of like jail here for Gaia just don't drop anything or something may happon to you well some times she dosnt even have to do that. Bottem line my wife is my bestfriend and I love her
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

thegatewalker said:


> No I didn't. Lose emotional connection awith my wife at all we just started talking and hanging out more. Don't get me wrong some times its kind of like jail here for Gaia just don't drop anything or something may happon to you well some times she dosnt even have to do that. Bottem line my wife is my bestfriend and I love her
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Awww that was sweet... aside from the jail reference hunny.... lmao


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Gaia said:


> As post below states... why would you assume this? Do you think men are incapable of connecting emotionally in ways aside from sex?
> 
> 
> 
> :iagree: My man is just one of those who doesn't put sex at the top of his list. It's in the middle I believe.. so joking around, talking, going on walks, ect are all things we did. I guess that seems bizzare to alot of people apparently.... lmao


See above...I was being sarcastic..I have a very dry sense of humor hard to pick up until you get to know me..I should have used the grin..

Dallas


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> See above...I was being sarcastic..I have a very dry sense of humor hard to pick up until you get to know me..I should have used the grin..
> 
> Dallas


lol like i said.. gotcha...


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Btu on that note..I have unfortunately met a few (mostly men but some women) that DO RELY on sex for the emotinal connection ..or lets put it this way without the "amount of sex" they claim they "have to have to stay emotionally connected" they claim anything else loses its sort of impact on them emotionally..Like not enough sex for him for example woudl equate to him losign his interest in "talkign to her" or meeting "her" emotional needs..(which always seem to involve other fun stuff you can do together non sexual like great conversation ..or even things like a back rub etc.. )

There is actually something called the "centerfold syndrome" ..its not a stereotype for men it is however almost like a disabilty in some how they can feel/express intimacy or identify with intimacy is all in the sex basket..Liek how they express intimacy and feel itimacy is almost all through sexual ...

Its obvioulsy not "all men" but its definately something not extremely rare to run acorss these days...unfortunately for them and thier spouse...

Dallas


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Gaia said:


> lol like i said.. gotcha...


I know we "cross posted" I think twice...(I was posting a response to you while you were postign a response to me too close to the same time!:banghead

Dallas


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> I know we "cross posted" I think twice...(I was posting a response to you while you were postign a response to me too close to the same time!:banghead
> 
> Dallas


:lol: It happens!


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

Gaia said:


> :lol: It happens!


shhhhh-it happens


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

Pompous jerk here!!!

I wish people would just accept that there are women who simply do go off sex.....they simply lose interest, they are not interested in having sex with their husband, themselves or indeed anyone else.
Look at the threads on TAM! Its all there.

My wife and I DID discuss our sex life (lack of)....she admitted she simply wasn't interested, which is why we had her hormone levels checked and why we went to marriage counselling. If that isn't admitting there is a problem I don't know what is.
My wife simply went off sex and wasnt prepared to try and work at tryingg to resolve the problem.
It may have answered lots of questions HAD she been getting it elsewhere...atleast then I would have known it was me.
But she WASN'T getting laid elsewhere. 

So, to those of you who say I should have discussed it with my wife I did, or maybe your interpretation of 'discuss' is to threaten?
'Unless you have sex with me I'm going to go out and get it elsewhere'....???

To those who accuse me of bragging - think what you wish. Though having sex 1-2 a week with your wife of 20 years isnt exactly something to brag about. Now, 1-2 times a DAY would be!

How many threads on here mention the male need for sex from their spouse? If a wife wants to 'thank' her man for something, we don't want a bunch of flowers or a box of chocolates, we want you to say thank-you by having sex with us!
Yes men have their emotional needs too, but our spouse making love to us is really how we connect with them.

Yes, perhaps my wifes sudden 'interest' is sex might disappear as quickly as it returned....she, or I, may drop dead of a heart attack tomorrow. We are living for today. We have both realised how much closer we have become emotionally (and in everything else) simply because we are having more sex.
She feels alot closer to me and I to her. If her libido wanes again, maybe she will remember how much closer we were and make a real effort.

As a male, yes I know that my ability to get an erection etc will probably reduce...however I still have fingers and a tongue, and I hope the will. 
If I lost the will or the ability to satisfy my wife sexually, would it be right of me to expect her to simply forget her needs?

Take a couple in their early 30's....both at the prime of their lives...working hard, playing hard and 'sexing' hard. He has an accident and is left paralysed from the neck down. 
He is unable to sexually satisfy his wife even slightly. Is it fair that she should simply switch off her sexuality?
I AM NOT saying she leaves....she stays, loves him, looks after him etc but gets her 'itch' scratched elsewhere. Is that wrong?

If I was unable to have sex with my wife, I wouldn't be surprised if she did go elsewhere for sex, so long as she came home.

Many say I betrayed my wife, whilst I accept that two wrongs don't make a right, she also betrayed me.

On the scale of things, whilst I was unfaithful, I was on the bottom rung. I did not have an affair, I did not leave. I simply had a 'hand fix' once a month.

As I have said in every post on here, I am not proud of what I did.

If you want to accuse me of boasting or being a jerk then we (most of us!!) live in a free world. Say what you wish.

However, the only point I was really trying to make is that sex is VITAL in a marriage...a lack of sex pushes you further apart. 
If you are not particulalry 'sexual' (either femal or male) then you must make the effort to atleast meet your partner half way....because if you don't, sooner or later the one feeling 'aggrieved' will, more than likely be atleast tempted to stray.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

You did not post ANY information when you first made your thread, no reason as to why you ended up cheating or anything. You made it seem more like an attack in a sense on women. "You better put your man first or he will get it elsewhere" Is highly offensive to alot of people. You made it also seem as if the WOMANS needs didn't mean squat.. more like she should basically be a servant to her man which is why so many were offended. As far as your question regarding disability in a spouse.. I for one would never get my "itch" as you call it.. scratched elsewhere regardless. I am with my man not for sex.. but for him so if something happened to put a dent in the sex life.. well they have toys available that I'd be more then willing to use to satisfy THAT need. One does not have to necessarily "switch off" their sexuality.. but to wander without regards to how the disabled spouse will feel or what that disable spouse is going through mentally and emotionally.. is cruel in my eyes. Like I said.. this is MY view on it, others are different obviously but this is my POV.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

There are some women here whose men don't want sex.

I thank my husband with a "thank you". 

Sex is a priority and not used as anything in this marriage for anything other than expression of emotion....and sometiems it's a random effing.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> .I have unfortunately met a few (mostly men but some women) that DO RELY on sex for the emotinal connection ..or lets put it this way without the "amount of sex" they claim they "have to have to stay emotionally connected" they claim anything else loses its sort of impact on them emotionally..
> 
> Its obvioulsy not "all men" but its definately something not extremely rare to run acorss these days...unfortunately for them and thier spouse...


The description above is normative in the male gender. There are reams of literature in psychology on it and even an empiric explanation based on brain chemistry. 

The true misfortune is when men and women each use their respective perceptions as a baseline against which their partner's needs are delegitimized.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

quote:Though having sex 1-2 a week with your wife of 20 years isnt exactly something to brag about. Now, 1-2 times a DAY would be!End quote

I disagree...considering almost half of all marraiges dont even survive 20 years..and of the ones that do a % percentage arent havign any sex at all..So your marriage is a"success in general and in the sexual dept..I think statistically overall ALL marraiges (of any length) the 'average amount of sex is like 1.6 times a week..But like I mentioned almost half dont even make it to 20 years..So I think your underappreciating what you have.

QuoteYes men have their emotional needs too, but our spouse making love to us is really how we connect with them.end quote..

Here again is where Im confused..I thought you said sex WAS an emotional need of men? #2 you state this like its just a fact for all men sex is "how they connect" and even here on this thread men have come forward and said sex is not the #1 way they keep an emotonal connection with their wife..of course its a part of it..but your emphasis on it as a top or THE top priority is not about "men" its about YOU and Im sure other men IOW 'some men"..

And your Op WAS a "threat" what in the heck is women if YOU arent having sex with yoru husband then "who is"?..then went on to talk about your self hirign a prostitute every month for years?..the implication that if a woman isnt having ENOUGH sex even (not even not any) that he WILL fidn someone esle eventually to "fill in for you " in between the "not enough sex' your gettign off of her...

Oh agian IF the problem was lack of sex keeping YOU unconnected form yoru wife HOW or WHAT was the point of having a prostitute have sex FOR her?Did having sex with the prostitues brign you closer to your wife and HOW?Or ..did you instead have an emotional bond WITH the prostitues I mean its not adding up..

Dallas
:


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

that_girl said:


> There are some women here whose men don't want sex.
> 
> I thank my husband with a "thank you".
> 
> Sex is a priority and not used as anything in this marriage for anything other than expression of emotion....and sometiems it's a random effing.


I have met countless women whos husbands at the very least have low drive ..and they check out normally on their hormonal levels and physcially..and other women whos husbands CANT have sex or its difficult for them too due to physical problems so they lose the desire eventually ....dont have any "interest" in puttign all this effort women are expected to "fix the problem".Adn they go along "happily" in the marriage without any sex connecting them ...rebuffing her efforts to entice him?

And also this "sex makes the connection" how does that explain all the men that never get "turned down" they get the "sex" but they are very unhappy because they know she could take it or leave it ?(no not a "boring lay") but its a sublte knowign or has been revealed in converstaion she doesnt really need it all that much for herself?(nto my favortie thing so to speak)She is doing it 'for him"Why isnt the "sex" connecting them ?I hear them ..its "not that she wont do it she is very "generous" but I want her to WANT to ...I want HER to DESIRE sex..(have the need personally)

Dallas


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Here whats wrong with this picture..?

I NEED to have sex with my husband in order to feel connected to HIM..I NEED that at LEAST 2 times a week to feel connected to HIM..he is only willing 3 times a month..So I can not feel "connected to HIM..how I remedy that is once a week I go down to the local male strip joint and there are a few guys up their that for 50 bucks will take me in the back room "take care of me' give me a 'happy ending"..

Now TELL me how that solves my lack of CONNECTION becasue of lack of sex with my husband becasue he wont give it to me like I NEED to feel connected to HIM?

Dallas


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> Now TELL me how that solves my lack of CONNECTION becasue of lack of sex with my husband becasue he wont give it to me like I NEED to feel connected to HIM?


Getting your emotional needs filled elsewhere obviously does not mend the disconnect with a spouse. It makes it worse.

Getting your emotional needs filled by your spouse is what is needed to mend the disconnect.

I don't think people are very specific when they speak of emotional connection and maybe that is a source of confusion You mentioned the "Centerfold syndrome" for example. I assume this is a reference to _The Centerfold Syndrome: How Men Can Overcome Objectification and Achieve Intimacy With Women_ by Gary Brooks. 

It's a good book. Worth reading. But it is about connecting emotionally with a woman. It's not about connecting emotionally with a man. A book written to women about connecting emotionally with a man would read very differently.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

What?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Getting your emotional needs filled elsewhere obviously does not mend the disconnect with a spouse. It makes it worse.
> 
> Getting your emotional needs filled by your spouse is what is needed to mend the disconnect.
> 
> ...


Exactly thats how I dont get visiting a prostitute once a month has anything to do with this OPs need for sex with his WIFE to keep connected to her so when she wouldnt do it enough he went elsewhere ..

How can a prostitute REPLACE what is is supposedly missing between the man and wife through sex?

IOW he might as well have LEFT out any part of sex having any emotional meaning .or any feelings of connection(with his wife) when the threat he will go elswhere for "it" if you dont do "it enough" is talked about.

YOU cant say I need sex with YOU to feel connected..to YOU ..you wont do it enough so thats why I go to a prostitute..its a complete disconnect..all that is saying is the wife CAN be substitued with a prostitute..for SEX.Has nothign to do with love or connection ..just sex..If a prostitute can replace yoru wife you arent lookign for any emotional connection with her through sex..you couldnt be..unless a porstitute (havign sex with her) can have an emotional bonidng affect(bring you closer) to your wife..And I dont bleieve that for one second...

This need for more sex has nothign to do with loving your spouse..Or else no one could replace your wife..(or husband).

Dallas


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Getting your emotional needs filled elsewhere obviously does not mend the disconnect with a spouse. It makes it worse.
> 
> Getting your emotional needs filled by your spouse is what is needed to mend the disconnect.
> 
> ...


Yes I understand its about connecting intimately in ways other than sexual ..for guys who seem to put sex (having sex) as the "only" or in an "out of porportion" way to feel intimacy with a woman.But its also an interesting "concept" for women to investigate that may be married to someone who doesnt seem to be able to connect in any "deep" way BUT through sex(not without sex they cant connect in other ways but the only way they seem to "feel loved" by her her or feel any "intimacy" with her..Asmittedly Ive only read snippets of it but thats at least part of what I got out of it..

Dallas


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> How can a prostitute REPLACE what is is supposedly missing between the man and wife through sex?


I suppose it's the same way a candy bar can replace what's missing for someone who's starving. They're empty calories. They're no good for you, and you'll never excel. But those empty calories will keep you going long enough to search for something real for a while.

Not saying it will actually work. But desperate people do desperate things hoping it'll work. It's easy to judge when your perspective is only from a good place. Perhaps you're not really able to put yourself in the OP's shoes.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> Exactly thats how I dont get visiting a prostitute once a month has anything to do with this OPs need for sex with his WIFE to keep connected to her so when she wouldnt do it enough he went elsewhere ..
> 
> How can a prostitute REPLACE what is is supposedly missing between the man and wife through sex?
> 
> ...



Couldn't we frame basically the same question from a 'typical' female perspective?

Like, "How is going to a man who is more empathetic and a better listener and more understanding have anything to do with a woman's need for meaningful communication with her husband?"

Obviously it doesn't solve the neglect that's going on in the marriage, but it does fill a need that is not being met. Isn't that exactly how emotional affairs often start?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I suppose it's the same way a candy bar can replace what's missing for someone who's starving. They're empty calories. They're no good for you, and you'll never excel. But those empty calories will keep you going long enough to search for something real for a while.
> 
> Not saying it will actually work. But desperate people do desperate things hoping it'll work. It's easy to judge when your perspective is only from a good place. Perhaps you're not really able to put yourself in the OP's shoes.


Then it has NOTHING to do with no connection with the wife..and nothing to do with needign MORE sex from HER..nothing because it doesnt have anythign to do with CONNECTING him to her..Litterally zero it woudl ONLY be about a need to get a sex "release" ...Not a longing to feel connected to your spouse..Since it does NOT accomplish that..

Dallas


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

If I have to explain to you why, in the real world sex is more or less a given in a normal mature adult relationship, if I really have to sit you down and patiently point that out to you like you're slow then that's kind of creepy. Like a slab side van with 'free candy' written on the side of it creepy.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

LOL @ RLD. Dallas, perhaps you should try reading what I wrote a little slower.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Couldn't we frame basically the same question from a 'typical' female perspective?
> 
> Like, "How is going to a man who is more empathetic and a better listener and more understanding have anything to do with a woman's need for meaningful communication with her husband?"
> 
> Obviously it doesn't solve the neglect that's going on in the marriage, but it does fill a need that is not being met. Isn't that exactly how emotional affairs often start?


O.K so the man gets "connected' and feels a bond and emotionally fullfilled by the prostitute?I gave that as an option you know in my confusion ..So the prostitute isnt just providign sex release she providign you with yoru need to "bond" and feel connected with 'a" woman?The man feels loved and cared for by the prostitute?

Because thats what an emotional affair solves is feeling cared about and loved and understood and valued by someone..So massage therapist gettign paid to give you a happy ending brings on those feelings?That you are valued and important?Worthwhile?Desired?That must be a neat trick you woudl have to play in your mind because the reality is they are gettign paid to provide a sex service they dont give a flip about you personally...its a job..

Dallas


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Couldn't we frame basically the same question from a 'typical' female perspective?
> 
> Like, "How is going to a man who is more empathetic and a better listener and more understanding have anything to do with a woman's need for meaningful communication with her husband?"
> 
> Obviously it doesn't solve the neglect that's going on in the marriage, but it does fill a need that is not being met. *Isn't that exactly how emotional affairs often start?*


That is correct... that's how mine started, and that is how my husband's started. We neglected EACH OTHER'S emotional needs. Not sexual, but emotional.

The interesting thing, tho...when presented with the opportunity to get sexual needs met elsewhere, there was no way either of us could do that. No matter how vulnerable I was, I knew, in my heart, that I could not have ANY kind of sexual relations with anyone other than MY HUSBAND. When presented with the opportunity, I shot the man down, cold. He has done the same. We do, however, now recognize EA to be on the same level as PA regarding betrayal. This is OUR view tho. Some see it that way, some do not.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

What im trying to point out is whats MISSING in the marriage due to lack of sex is a feelign of connection with your wife(or lets say a woman )..going ot a porstitute unless you BOND with her its only sex..so it doesnt make sense to claim oen of the reasons you went to her was "missign a bond"(or connection)..

Dallas


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> What im trying to point out is whats MISSING in the marriage due to lack of sex is a feelign of connection with your wife(or lets say a woman )..going ot a porstitute unless you BOND with her its only sex..so it doesnt make sense to claim oen of the reasons you went to her was "missign a bond"(or connection)..
> 
> Dallas


I think that was pointed out 21 pages ago....


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Its not that I dont "get it" and that helps the way you phrased it..but would you quickly realize there IS no bonding going on and its just a hand job by a woman you paid that doesnt give a flip about you ?

If you read back I did say tht must be a pretty neat trick you woudl have to be playing in your mind to beleive it has any "connection " other than body parts..

Dallas


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> LOL @ RLD. Dallas, perhaps you should try reading what I wrote a little slower.


I'l admit i have had too much cofee today..

Dallas


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I am not understand a WORD you are talking about, Dallas. People are making good points here, and your replies don't seem to match up :scratchhead:


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Also an EA can be a REAL connection and a REAL bond can be formed..thats why they are so sort of treacherous you can actually fall in love..(the two of you )..

I just dont see how a prostitute could provide ANY real bonding you woudl have to either fall in love with her while shes givign you a happy ending..or be lying to your self that its anything but a sex act with zero other meaning..

Its the prostitute part thats got me stumped..Dont even feel the saem way if it was a REAL relationship with another person that actually desires you and cares about you ..

Dallas


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

that_girl said:


> I am not understand a WORD you are talking about, Dallas. People are making good points here, and your replies don't seem to match up :scratchhead:


O.K...If the lack of sex makes you have a lack of bonding with your wife how is a porstitute filling the need not just to bond with her but bond at all?

I think Im picking up that its an "ilusion"?..Like sort of running around on a hamster wheel trying to catch somethign thats not there ..

Subconsciously....

Dallas


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## Skate Daddy 9 (Sep 19, 2011)

I don’t understand why so many people are throwing the original poster under the bus. He is just trying to tell you his experience hoping that someone can learn from it. I have not cheated on my wife but I completely understand what the original post is saying. The people who react negatively to the original comments might need to take a look at their sex life, if you find his comments offensive you might be feeling guilty about your lack of sex and are afraid that your partner is feeling the same way.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Skate Daddy 9 said:


> I don’t understand why so many people are throwing the original poster under the bus. He is just trying to tell you his experience hoping that someone can learn from it. I have not cheated on my wife but I completely understand what the original post is saying. The people who react negatively to the original comments might need to take a look at their sex life, if you find his comments offensive you might be feeling guilty about your lack of sex and are afraid that your partner is feeling the same way.


Nobody threw him under the bus, he did that himself when he made the choice to cheat over and over. He then blamed women for his choices and to this day has never come clean to his wife about what he has done. To me, that doesn't sound like the kind of guy I would shuck my clothing off for and could very well be the reason she lost interest in the first place. Women are pretty keen to these things and we know a good man from a bad one. 
I fail to see how my sex life has anything to do with this. My character and integrity does however.


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## Skate Daddy 9 (Sep 19, 2011)

He did not come on this site and post his experience because he wanted to know if you thought it was wrong of him he simply wanted to tell you something in hopes that someone else does not make the same mistakes that he made. So why throw him under the bus?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Skate Daddy 9 said:


> He did not come on this site and post his experience because he wanted to know if you thought it was wrong of him he simply wanted to tell you something in hopes that someone else does not make the same mistakes that he made. So why throw him under the bus?


With all sincerity here, what exactly did he tell us? Screw your dude or else someone else will? Would it be okay for me to come here and post something along the lines of "If you aren't rocking your wife's world in the bedroom, then it is cool for her to find it elsewhere and it would be all your fault that she is cheating? What about personal responsibility and ownership? 
The entire post was a threat, it was nothing more than a brag session and he feels little remorse for his actions. He still hasn't told the truth. He tap dances around his reasons for not doing so and it still reeks. My guess is this is the kind of person who blames everybody else for their plight and women (at least this woman) doesn't find that sexy at all. Maybe his wife is my twin.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Skate Daddy 9 said:


> He did not come on this site and post his experience because he wanted to know if you thought it was wrong of him he simply wanted to tell you something in hopes that someone else does not make the same mistakes that he made. So why throw him under the bus?


the only problem is although he admitted it was wrong he said he didnt regret doing it ..and I'll have to look back but he eluded to if his wifes sex drive diminishes in the future sort of a "who knows what will happen"..IOW sounds as if hes given himslef the O.K in advance to repeat this behavior and its all based on if HE decides hes getting enough sex or not..AND his wife has no idea..I really feel sorry for her he has done this..and sounds like its his game plan in the future if she doesnt supply him enough sex and shes clueless to it..IOW why tell OTHER women and then act shocked it would get a negative reaction when he wont evne tell his own wife?Why not give HER the warning?I know why becasue she might just shut down for good..or walk out and leave him..OR if he thinks its such a great favor to tell others..then maybe his divulging this info to her she will be sure to supply him enough sex?Isnt that the affect hes hoping it will have on OTHER mens wives?But yet he keeps this valuable information from the woman he loves?

Dallas


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Skate Daddy 9 said:


> I don’t understand why so many people are throwing the original poster under the bus. He is just trying to tell you his experience hoping that someone can learn from it. I have not cheated on my wife but I completely understand what the original post is saying. *The people who react negatively to the original comments might need to take a look at their sex life, if you find his comments offensive you might be feeling guilty about your lack of sex and are afraid that your partner is feeling the same way.*


You're joking, right? Seriously? When given the opportunity to have ANY kind of sexual contact with someone other than my spouse, I chose NOT to give in. I was vulnerable. The guy could see it. And I CHOSE to NOT betray my husband in that way. Guess what? My husband did the same thing I did. The point is that the OP CHOSE to cheat. He has now CHOSEN to lie to his wife: lie by omission. THAT is what disgusts those of us who, as you have stated, have "thrown him under the bus". It has nothing to do with my sex life. It has to do with him coming on here, saying "hey, your husband is gonna go screw around on you unless you put out"...Funny, neither my husband nor I had sex with anyone else. We did have EAs, which is also a betrayal. And we are working thru the issues relating to them. But, the only way we could truly move forward was by *BEING HONEST WITH EACH OTHER*!

My disgust has nothing to do with lack of sex life. It has to do with the blatant disregard for disclosure to a woman he professes to love, yet still lies to...every. single. day.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Also this particular gentlemand drew the parralles that he was "betrayed" by her too (first) by only having sex with him I think it was "8 to 10 times a year"..Now if "betrayel" for him which sort of made him "even with her' by his adultery then let me ask is he the atuhority on what "betrayel is"(as far as amount) and I should take this info and what?Make sure I "provide" sex at the level that he DOESNT consider a betrayel?What if my husband decides Im "betraying him" with only 1 to 2 times a week because he "needs' sex every day sometime twice to not feel" betrayed?

Also its equally disheartenign IMHO to hear him say after all that ..her "betraying him" then him using prostitues its picked up what to 10X the "amount" and he says "nothing to brag about'..

And also since it IS about an emotional bond when else should the gun be held to the heads of the spouse that if they dont do "x" they will cheat?People have full on sexual affairs for other reasons besides "not enouhg sex"..Includign just plain old boredom..should we issue another warning?Wives be sure to be spicy enough and exciting adn fun enough and intneresting enough IN AND outside of be or else "he will fidn excitement somewhere else" due to that betrayal?

Who gets to draw the line on "betrayel" ?One thing we know for sure its ALWAYS a betrayel to cheat..

Dallas


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

QUOTE: If a wife wants to 'thank' her man for something, we don't want a bunch of flowers or a box of chocolates, END quote..

If my husband wants to thank me for something I dont want a bunch of flowers and a box of chocolates either I want the words "thank you I appreciate that".

Im also finding it interesting that you seem to be speaking from a standpoint its a message to all wives on behalf of all men they want to be "thanked" (Im assuming for various different acts or other gifts?) with sex. Why do you think you can speak for all men that sex with thier wife is a "thank you " from her for anything?Um ..my particular husband views sex as a mutual GIFT we give to each other(that hes givign ME something from him too)..a recreational activity..(having fun with me)..an expression of HIS love to me and vice versa....and just a form of companionship ..it has nothing to do with me showign him "gratitude" for something he does for me in any other area of marriage..Its a MUTUAL gift or so thats how he prefers it to be..not an act I give to him in "thanks" to him for something he did for me..thats a "trade" off situation and its shallow..and we have talked a LOT about this because there was a time he pulled the ole "I do this for you "..I went along with it and he hated it..the this is all for you but not for me (paying him a debt of gratitude ) soon left him feeling empty..He said he only said that out of frustration and regretted it..His satisfaction comes from me WANTING him..Not "givign him sex to say thanks" for something..

So you need to be careful when you say "we husbands and announce anything about what you want "us wives" to do for you and why.

Dallas


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

daffodilly said:


> See, that's the thing....he doesn't claim to have made a mistake. Said he's not proud, but has NO REGRETS. And even tries to lamely diminish the kind of cheating it is....as if a hand job is morally superior to intercourse. Heaven forbid he use his OWN hands. OP's actions are cowardly
> 
> The best thing I got out of reading OP's thoughts? I knew I was lucky before....but now I am more appreciative and grateful than ever to be married to a real man.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Skate Daddy 9 (Sep 19, 2011)

Well I never agreed with the post or what he did I am just saying he did not come here to be judged by us but to tell us how he felt.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Skate Daddy 9 said:


> Well I never agreed with the post or what he did I am just saying he did not come here to be judged by us but to tell us how he felt.


No he came to warn "ladies" that if they dont have enough sex with their husband he will get it somewhere else and lie to her about it..and all be it "two wrongs dont make a right' hes only betarying you becasue you betrayed him first..He refers to "we husbands" want this you wives take heed.....thats not him just simply sayign how HE feels hes point blankly acting as if hes a spokesman for OUR(all) husbands..

Dallas


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Ok, THAT I understood, Dallas :lol: :iagree:


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Skate Daddy 9 said:


> Well I never agreed with the post or what he did I am just saying he did not come here to be judged by us but to tell us how he felt.


I can appreciate that. I can also appreciate that there are many here who have been cheated on and hearing in essence "you caused it" riles many up. Nobody causes anybody to cheat. It is a choice and he made it but now is pointing fingers at everybody else. It's his wife's fault, he likened his wife getting a manicure as the same as him getting a HJ, hell it's even the "massage therapists" fault as she came on to him. The dude is Teflon. Even now, he refuses to come clean as to what he has done and said that if things return back to the way they were, he will continue with his old habits. No remorse whatsoever. I think when you post something as he did, you open yourself up to scorn and judgment. This wasn't a "teaching" post, this was a threat and blameshifting to anybody who doesn't do what their partner wants and nearly everybody here saw right through him.
He also acts like he speaks for all husbands. My husband would appreciate it greatly if a multiple cheater and man of low character would not speak on his behalf. He has his own voice and would never agree with this self appointed spokesperson.


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## Skate Daddy 9 (Sep 19, 2011)

Trust me, I think the original poster sounds like a real piece of ****.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Thats the point i think ..I have all kinds of "horror" stories over my 30 year relationship with my husband startign at 14 when I met him...I would never tell my story from a standpoint" women I did this adn my husband did that ..so WE women better do this or your husands will do that!Be WARNED!

I dont think anyone is an idiot most people are aware there is a "risk" in any marriage someone "might cheat" the the fact is MOST dont cheat even in UNHAPPY circumstances ..and though of the ones that do the reasons can be very VARIED ...or that one might just decide they arent in love anymore for no OBVIOUS reason and just up and leave..

But when you turn around and apply YOUR story and your circumstances to all marraiges as if its a fact for everyone ..and based on YOUR standards and guidlines instruct everyone else how THEY need to behave in order that you dont have the same results then thats just crossing the line..Even the husbands want to be "thanked with sex" does not apply to MY husband..so thats the problem ...

As well as the blameshifting for his WRONG choice..thats just not very humble..there is a lack of humility..

Dallas


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

askari said:


> *So I still stand by what I said initially - sex is very important in a marriage...and if you are not having it, sooner or later one of you (probably the man) will eventually wander. Fact.*


Very good reason for wives not to trust husbands *ever*.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

janefw said:


> Very good reason for wives not to trust husbands *ever*.


and same for husbands to wives


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

thunderstruck said:


> While I don't agree with the OP's parlor choice, he does have a point here. I've done Athol's stuff over the past few years. At 44, I'm in great shape, I dress better, I get better haircuts, I feel way more confident...so, all of a sudden, I get looks and interactions from the ladies. My W has noticed all of this, and it bugs the hell out of her. Still, I just get the duty stuff. I've never cheated, and don't plan to.
> 
> *But, the OP's warning is valid...if you aren't taking care of your H's basic needs, and he's walking out of the house every morning feeling like he's a loaded weapon...bad things may happen*.


:iagree::iagree: I would say the same thing about a hubby who won't make love to his wife.

Cheating is breaking vows and so is constantly refusing to be intimate.

Both of the aforementioned habits are detrimental to a marriage.


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

i see a lot of gender bias here...


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

anonim said:


> i see a lot of gender bias here...


I see a lot of men and women who both are feeling deprived of sex or lets say 'sexual love" by their spouses..

Thats still nto 50/50 with hiring a prostitue ..Sorry ..

Dallas


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

I came on here to say, basically;

"Wives AND husbands....this is what I did, this is why I did it and this is how I felt etc. Sex in a marriage is very important indeed. If you have sexual 'differences' and don't address them together, and that includes meeting half way, you are asking for problems.
Being sexually intimate regularly (frequency that BOTH are happy with) with your spouse really cements a marriage together and makes you emotionally closer. 
If you don't make that sexual effort, then the chances of one of you wandering is greatly increased".

For trying to share my experiences on here, I have been blasted, called a $hit etc.

I didn't know that there were so many perfect people in the world.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

askari said:


> For trying to share my experiences on here, I have been blasted, called a $hit etc.
> 
> I didn't know that there were so many perfect people in the world.


you werent blasted for coming here and sharing your experiences.
everybody here makes mistakes.
its because you dont see where you have made mistakes.
in fact, you dont see them as mistakes. what you did was intentional and you have no regrets and say you will do it again.
thats what has people on here going.

you are correct that a big gap in sexual compatibility can cause major problems. it can be a ld male or female but you need another way to address the issue that works within the marriage, not by going outside the marriage.


not so many perfect people in the word...
just on tam


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

Hey 2ndTime, be fair....I have NEVER said that I would do it again.

Weren't blasted? I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one I'm afraid!

I guess that I am THE ONLY person on TAM who isn't perfect then! 
So don't fit in.

Maybe TAM should change to PPTAM - Perfect People Talk About Marriage!!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

askari said:


> I came on here to say, basically;
> 
> "Wives AND husbands....this is what I did, this is why I did it and this is how I felt etc. Sex in a marriage is very important indeed. If you have sexual 'differences' and don't address them together, and that includes meeting half way, you are asking for problems.
> Being sexually intimate regularly (frequency that BOTH are happy with) with your spouse really cements a marriage together and makes you emotionally closer.
> ...


One of the main reasons you were blasted is because you did not make this about both men and women who withhold sex. You aimed your post at all women as though all will needed to be chastised for something going on between you and your wife.

Look at the title of your thread... it' does not address men who refuse sex with their wives. It only addresses women.

On the internet, no one can see your body language. In real life body language is about 70% of communications. So words are raw... they cut deeper than we usually intend for them to cut. So perhaps your delivery was not exactly what you thought it was.

As for you not being perfect. None of us are. We all do stupid, bad, hurtful things from time to time. 

I know that what you wife was doing is extrememly hurtful, many consider it a form of emotional abuse. I believe it is.

But many, myself included, believe that there is no excuse to cheat.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> One of the main reasons you were blasted is because you did not make this about both men and women who withhold sex.


---Not trying to defend male obtuseness and I agree that sexism is wrong. It does seem like for every one woman who stands up and says, "Look. This is not a gender issue. Plenty of women are trapped in sexless marriages too." there is another one (Sometimes on the same thread) openly scoffing at the idea that sex can be one partner's greatest emotional need.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

askari don't get upset it is a forum. Anytime you post here you always have to be prepared to get "blasted". Every forum is like that. You are taking this way to personally. It is not about who is perfect it is about the discussion of a topic.


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## Aristotle (Apr 4, 2012)

lol @ blasted. 

Hilarious. The PP of TAM approve of this thread.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

2nd_t!me iz_best said:


> and same for husbands to wives


Is that a common thing here, that someone makes a statement and instead of coming up with anything original, someone turns it around to the opposite? 

This thread is about a man telling women to take care are of their husbands or he will stray. He called it a "fact". That's what I was responding to. To turn it around to the opposite gender just seems pointless when that wasn't even the subject matter.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> ---Not trying to defend male obtuseness and I agree that sexism is wrong. It does seem like for every one woman who stands up and says, "Look. This is not a gender issue. Plenty of women are trapped in sexless marriages too." there is another one (Sometimes on the same thread) openly scoffing at the idea that sex can be one partner's greatest emotional need.


For me, I don't believe that sex should be a person's "greatest emotional need" because there are all kinds of reasons why sex may be off the menu - illness, childbirth, hospitalization, unavoidable separation. If sex is your greatest emotional need, what are you going to do without your partner? Obviously, in the case of the OP .. he cheated. He cheated because he believes that he has a right to cheat - because sex is his _greatest emotional need_. See how that works for him? By the same token I could make hugs my greatest emotional need. So, if I don't get hugs, then my husband is neglecting me, and I can go hugged someplace else, because it's my greatest emotional need. Hugs don't really work, lol, because they aren't very sexual, but anyway - whatever you want to chose - if a person defines something as their greatest need, and make it something they can't live without, then they can justify pursuing it elsewhere. 

I totally disagree with this perspective btw. As adults, we should have learned self control somewhere along the line. If we haven't, then we're just like 2 and 3yo's grabbing what we want, because we just can't live without .. a treat .. or a toy .. or to be picked up by mom or dad .. is that really what we are as adults?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

janefw said:


> For me, *I don't believe that sex should be a person's "greatest emotional need" because there are all kinds of reasons why sex may be off the menu -* illness, childbirth, hospitalization, unavoidable separation. If sex is your greatest emotional need, what are you going to do without your partner? Obviously, in the case of the OP .. he cheated. He cheated because he believes that he has a right to cheat - because sex is his _greatest emotional need_. See how that works for him? By the same token I could make hugs my greatest emotional need. So, if I don't get hugs, then my husband is neglecting me, and I can go hugged someplace else, because it's my greatest emotional need. Hugs don't really work, lol, because they aren't very sexual, but anyway - whatever you want to chose - if a person defines something as their greatest need, and make it something they can't live without, then they can justify pursuing it elsewhere.
> 
> I totally disagree with this perspective btw. As adults, we should have learned self control somewhere along the line. If we haven't, then we're just like 2 and 3yo's grabbing what we want, because we just can't live without .. a treat .. or a toy .. or to be picked up by mom or dad .. is that really what we are as adults?


Wow. Sorry but this is more than a bit insulting. Since sex is not your top emotional need, you just dismiss anyone with a different opinion, then equate them to a toddler? Are you that dismissive of other needs people have that don't line up with your world view? Since sex is an emotional need only necessary for child-like people, try cutting your husband off indefinitely and then tell him to grow up and learn to control himself. See how things work in your marriage then.

I don't care what you believe, it is my greatest emotional need and I am not ashamed of it. Does not mean I am justified in cheating if my wife does not meet it, but it sure would be a reason to take serious stock in my marriage. Sorry, but this is just terrible advice.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Wow. Sorry but this is more than a bit insulting. Since sex is not your top emotional need, you just dismiss anyone with a different opinion, then equate them to a toddler? Are you that dismissive of other needs people have that don't line up with your world view? Since sex is an emotional need only necessary for child-like people, try cutting your husband off indefinitely and then tell him to grow up and learn to control himself. See how things work in your marriage then.
> 
> I don't care what you believe, it is my greatest emotional need and I am not ashamed of it. Does not mean I am justified in cheating if my wife does not meet it, but it sure would be a reason to take serious stock in my marriage. Sorry, but this is just terrible advice.


It's not advice. It's an opinion. And I stand by it. <shrug> The question remains - if sex is your biggest emotional need, what do you do if you can't have it? 

You misunderstood my post entirely, btw. I specifically said that not having self-control is childlike, and that and those without self-control are the ones who go off and have affairs, because they have excused those affairs to themselves in advance.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

janefw said:


> Is that a common thing here, that someone makes a statement and instead of coming up with anything original, someone turns it around to the opposite?


was not turning anything around to the opposite gender.
i quite agree with you but it goes both ways as does anything.
this stuff is not gender specific including op's statement geard towards woman about mes.
it also goes for men who with hold from women.
it all goes both ways.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

> try cutting your husband off indefinitely and then tell him to grow up and learn to control himself. See how things work in your marriage then.


In my marrige, I'm the one that's cut off, so really, that's just hilarious to read. That's why I know that people shouldn't rank sex up there as something that they "need" rather than something that they "want". If people tell themselves that sex is something that they need - like air, or water, or food - then they will cheat if they don't get it.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

janefw said:


> In my marrige, I'm the one that's cut off, so really, that's just hilarious to read. That's why I know that people shouldn't rank sex up there as something that they "need" rather than something that they "want". If people tell themselves that sex is something that they need - like air, or water, or food - then they will cheat if they don't get it.


So because it is not your top need for your marriage, it should be that way for everyone? Sorry, that's junk advice hiding behind opinion.

Its not a need like air or food, but then again neither is any other form of emotional connection, like talking or acts of service. It is, however, as critical as air or water to my marriage. Without sex, it would be very difficult for my marriage to survive, particular if it were my wife's choice.

You keep saying that without their top emotional need being met, people will just cheat, as if that is a fact. It is not. Cheating is not justified. Whether it is an EA or a PA, people can control themselves. If their top need for a marriage is not being met, they need to be an adult and address it head on, including deciding whether to be divorced.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> So because it is not your top need for your marriage, it should be that way for everyone? Sorry, that's junk advice hiding behind opinion.
> 
> Its not a need like air or food, but then again neither is any other form of emotional connection, like talking or acts of service. It is, however, as critical as air or water to my marriage. Without sex, it would be very difficult for my marriage to survive, particular if it were my wife's choice.
> 
> You keep saying that without their top emotional need being met, people will just cheat, as if that is a fact. It is not. Cheating is not justified. Whether it is an EA or a PA, people can control themselves. If their top need for a marriage is not being met, they need to be an adult and address it head on, including deciding whether to be divorced.


*sigh* - the OP said that men will cheat if their #1 "need" - sex - is not met. HE said "fact". Not me. 

I already said that people can control themselves and that they need to be an adult about it. That was the gist of my post. 

I'm sorry that your marriage would not survive without sex. That's kinda sad.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

janefw said:


> For me, I don't believe that sex should be a person's "greatest emotional need" because there are all kinds of reasons why sex may be off the menu - illness, childbirth, hospitalization, unavoidable separation.


Case in point.....

Using our own perceptions and experiences as a baseline of normative values and conduct is egocentrism.

The theory in psychology is that young boys typically challenge parental authority on the basis of comparative physical size and strength, whereas young girls rely more strongly on the power of their intellect, which sometimes results in a more inflexible outlook. I don't know if I believe that or not, but there sure seems to be confirmation on TAM sometimes 

Men and women have essentially the same emotional needs, but they weight them differently. Men generally put sex at or near the top of the list. As I said earlier on this thread, there are reams of literature on the subject and even an empiric explanation based on differences in brain chemistry between men and women. 




janefw said:


> I totally disagree with this perspective btw. As adults, we should have learned self control somewhere along the line. If we haven't, then we're just like 2 and 3yo's grabbing what we want, because we just can't live without .. a treat .. or a toy .. or to be picked up by mom or dad .. is that really what we are as adults?


Well I propose a simple experiment. Quit eating. In three days, maybe less, food will escalate to your number one priority. I guarantee it. In a week or so, you might even begin to hallucinate about food as well. 

Is that a lack of self control? It depends on your perspective. 

When I was much younger, I fell down a ravine in an area of the Mazatzals called 'Hells Gate' This was many years ago, long before cell phones and it was a week before I ate again. That week would still be preferable to a year or so without sex. It was easier and over more quickly.

Men come here on TAM and attempt to explain how unrequited sexual desire is every bit as persistent and gnawing a need as intense hunger and it mostly falls on deaf ears. --Apparently because some believe their personal experience with sexual desire is a baseline of what's normal. 

In that regard, there's a phenomenon that some women experience in perimenopause and even menopause proper where the ovaries greatly scale back production of estrogen, while merrily churning out testosterone. 

Libido simply explodes. Sex escalates right to the top of the list of emotional needs. There's support groups for women with this condition on the internet and you should hear the things they say. They sound like seventeen year old boys. I would never have known about this if it hadn't happened to my wife. 

Some of them even end up apologizing to their husbands for years gone by, because they simply did not realize what it was like to have their their sexual needs marginalized and scoffed at.

Please understand that I'm not excusing cheating. Cheating is always wrong.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

> Well I propose a simple experiment. Quit eating. In three days, maybe less, food will escalate to your number one priority. I guarantee it. In a week or so, you might even begin to hallucinate about food as well.


Will you die without sex? No.
Will you die without food? Yes.

It's not a worthwhile comparison.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

janefw said:


> *sigh* - the OP said that men will cheat if their #1 "need" - sex - is not met. HE said "fact". Not me.
> 
> I already said that people can control themselves and that they need to be an adult about it. That was the gist of my post.


You keep repeating it as if it were your own point of view. I disagree with it, regardless of who thinks this is true. I am glad you don't believe that.



> I'm sorry that your marriage would not survive without sex. That's kinda sad.


Yes, if my wife willingly withheld sex, we would eventually get divorced. I suspect if your husband willingly withheld whatever you put on the top your emotional needs, you would consider doing the same. I, however, would not judge you on that.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

janefw said:


> Will you die without sex? No.
> Will you die without food? Yes.
> 
> It's not a worthwhile comparison.


You will not die from a week without food. Humans can actually go substantially longer than that. But you will be intensely unhappy at a level you did not think possible (Unless you've experienced something similar) and food will be all you can think about. 

That was the nature of the comparison. I've gone a year and a half without sex in an otherwise loving relationship. (A prolonged episode of postpartum coolness) I've also gone a solid week without food. I realize the former would not have killed me, but that was not the point. The point is that the former was worse in terms of mental distress.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Ok here's something for you all.. What about those who have all the sex they could ever want with their SO... and yet... still think about cheating or do cheat? Kind of challenges the .. sex with SO = being emotionally fulfilled ... doesn't it?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

janefw said:


> *sigh* - the OP said that men will cheat if their #1 "need" - sex - is not met. HE said "fact". Not me.
> 
> I already said that people can control themselves and that they need to be an adult about it. That was the gist of my post.
> 
> I'm sorry that your marriage would not survive without sex. That's kinda sad.


Why is it sad that a marriage cannot survive without sex? If the couple is older... then the sex level goes down and can even become non-existant. Physical/mental issues can cause this as well in younger couples.

But when both are healthy, and one willingly withholds it's very hurtful emotionally. They may as well be screaming mean things at their spouse 24/7 because that what is really going on... 

Why would anyone stay in a marriage where they are rejected very day... or almost every day?


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## dahling (Sep 26, 2011)

*Ladies...If your arent having sex with your Husband...who is?*
Likely whoever is willing as it seems guys offer little sexual loyalty, consider his needs paramount, and see sex as something that must be accomodated to his desire.

*Why am I telling you this? Well, for two reasons....*
I'm not curious as to why you're posting this as it seems to be the threat of 'do it or else'. It's likely for one reason to encourage. You likely have though you've also discouraged some gals I know as quite a few I've forwarded this to have said 'I'm not having sex with him as I don't know where he's been'. Bit curious as to why you didn't divorce your wife. More curious to if you'll tell her of your infidelity that you rationalize, justify, and don't regret. 

*1)sex really is VERY important in a marriage, it is the glue that bonds you.*
Seems more like accomodating the HD's partner sexual desire is very important in a marriage and is the glue that bonds the HD to their partner.

*2)ladies - sex is very important to a man. Not only is it a physical need but its how we bond. If you aren't having sex (and by 'sex' I mean anything, even BJ's or Hj's) with your husband, its only a matter of time before he does what I did....and gets it elsewhere.*
I don't doubt that sex is very important to a guy and he'll get it elsewhere however on the sex being how men bond 
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

I doubt sex is how guys generally bond considering how many lack sexual loyalty, see gals as sexual objects vs sexual beings, and easily separate love and sex. I highly doubt sex is how guys bond in a relationship considering the common mindsets of 'her orgasm is her responsibility' and 'don't deny sex without a good reason'. Her orgasm being her responsibility while she has to accomodate his sexual desire suggests to me she has to be sexually available to him for his desire but he doesn't have to sexually please for her desire. Not denying sex without a good reason implies that lack of consent/desire isn't a good reason suggesting to me it's having sex with her body not sex with her as whether she wants it or enjoys it doesn't matter what does matter is that she doesn't show. It may not even be about her body rather a female body as she's easily interchangeable for all this talk of 'bonding' and 'emotional needs'. Sex is likely akin to porn it's about his validation and ego servicing his needs and having her not show she dislikes doing such it's not about a mutual consensual activity done out of desire to give get pleasure.


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## Aristotle (Apr 4, 2012)

janefw said:


> For me, I don't believe that sex should be a person's "greatest emotional need" because there are all kinds of reasons why sex may be off the menu - illness, childbirth, hospitalization, unavoidable separation.


Fortuantely for us, you only get to pick your own greatest emotional need. I respect your opinion, but respectfully disagree.



janefw said:


> In my marrige, I'm the one that's cut off, so really, that's just hilarious to read. That's why I know that people shouldn't rank sex up there as something that they "need" rather than something that they "want". If people tell themselves that sex is something that they need - like air, or water, or food - then they will cheat if they don't get it.


It's called a moral compass and integrity, some of us have it. Food, clothing, and shelter are needs, but because we have a moral compass, we work and earn a living to pay for these things. I am sure it would be easier to go out and rob and steal from every fat person we see with a lot of clothing on, but because we have character and integrity, we do it the right way. Putting sex up there with air, water, or food, *in a relationship sense*, doesn't mean that because we do not get this need we turn into savage animals and go have sex with everything that moves. Whether we stick around and earn it from our wives, or seperate/divorce, we remain true to ourselves and our own belief system. I believe cheating is wrong, nothing will change that.



janefw said:


> Will you die without sex? No.
> Will you die without food? Yes.
> 
> It's not a worthwhile comparison.


Will you die without food? Yes.

Will your marriage die without sex? Yes.

It is a worthwhile comparison, but you are too busy trying to be "right" that you ignore all logic. *This reminds me of toddlers who will grab for whatever it is they want, just because they want it. * Sometimes it's good to stop, read, comprehend, and possibly.... although this is far fetched, slightly alter your opinion. 
*GASP*

I know I know, noone has the power to change opinions, because some opinions may as well be facts.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

Wow, so you all would dump your marriages if you didn't get your sexual wants met? It explains why the divorce statistics are so high. If people divorce at every bump in the road, just what *is *the point of marriage?


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## Aristotle (Apr 4, 2012)

A lot of us said we would work on it, communicate, and try to get our wives to understand our needs. But yes, if my wife refuses to meet my needs (and only wants her needs met), I would move on before I cheated.

I would NOT stay sexless for 6 months, let alone years (which some husbands, WHO HAVEN'T CHEATED LIVE THROUGH). For me, there would be a definite timeline, as I am not going to wait months for my wife to figure out that it's not okay to be selfish -- my needs are important too. What type of person needs months to figure that out? Maybe I am too alpha for that, but I'd move on. Hopefully keeping a friendship for the kids sake, but that's all my wife wanted in the first place if sex is out of the picture. A friendship. I am not going to give my attention, complacency (marriage, kids, family), friendship, if I cannot get my most basic primal need met. 

If she was sick, that's a different topic. I'd stick by my wife, faithful and loyal. I pride myself in that.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

janefw said:


> Wow, so you all would dump your marriages if you didn't get your sexual wants met? It explains why the divorce statistics are so high. If people divorce at every bump in the road, just what *is *the point of marriage?


You COMPLETELY missed what they said. In marriage, sex IS a need. Not a WANT, a NEED. It may not be at the top of the list, but it is still NEEDED. If two *COMPLETELY HEALTHY MARRIED ADULTS* are not having sex with each other, and one is *WITHHOLDING* sex, not because of illness, or any other *legitimate* reason, then that is a BIG problem. This is what EleGirl, and Aristotle, and others on this same wavelength are saying. If there is a *legitimate reason* for not having sex, then yes, I would say dumping the spouse is uncalled for. If my husband willfully withheld sex from me, I'd be gone. Notice I said *willfully withheld*. He is having psych problems which we are working thru. So, his withholding isn't willful, it is due to his illness. I am not dropping him. But if there as no legit reason for it, hell yes I would! I don't just WANT sex with my husband, I NEED it. I am only 37 years old. If I was 80, I think I'd likely view sex a bit differently IN MY MARRIAGE...but not in a young marriage.

Sex is a part of a *NORMAL, HEALTHY MARRIAGE*. If a YOUNG marriage isn't having ANY sex, or having very little (no interest), then there is something wrong. Once every 3-4 months is not normal. And, if the one who is "putting off" is unwilling to find a solution, then yes, I would say move on. That isn't just a "bump in the road. That is a BIG PROBLEM!


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

If a husband or a wife is unable to 'perform' due to an illness or medical condition then one can understand that. Though what if, as I believe the OP mentioned somewhere in all this, one partner in their prime has an accident/illness which renders them paralysed. Would it be wrong if the 'healthy' partner stayed but got sex elsewhere??......

You could say that someone who has an aversion to sex/intimacy with their partner is also suffering an illness...

They have all the equipment, it works, is healthy etc but for some psychological reason they cannot bring themselves to share it with their spouse or indeed anyone else.

Adultery is not right, but there are times when its certainly understandable. The OP could have chosen his initial words more wisely...but I can understand why he ended up doing what he did.

Act One Scene One (at the Pearly Gates of Heaven);

God: My son...I see here on your report that you did on the 15th day of March 2012 enter an Apple shop and did steal an Iphone4GS. Why?

'Son'; Well, it was like me mates all 'ad one an' like I didn't an' as I didn't 'ave any money, I like nicked it'

God: 'Ummmm.....Off you go son....head south.

Act One Scene Two (at the Pearly Gates of Heaven)

God: My son...I see here on your report that on the 23rd March 2012 you did enter the food section and did steal two loaves of bread and a bottle of milk. Why?

'Son': My Lord, four days previously I gave all my money to my brother because he was sick and needed to buy medicine. I had no money and was hungry'

God: Come on in.

Both stole.....but one can understand the second ones actions.

Apologies if I offended anyone by using the above scenario.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I wonder why Jane is so anti sex. I wonder if she is fighting so hard because she justifying or feels guilty about her own actions. Jane, you think marriage is not about sex? People get married to be celibate?


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

I am not anti-sex, lol. I enjoy sex. I don't withhold. My husband withholds. I know from a 13 year marriage of having to live with his low libido, that it can be done, and that it's worth it - especially where there are children - to lower your sexual expectations, and to maintain the marriage, because love isn't all about wanting your #1 desire met. 

So you have me entirely wrong.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

If I may I know Jane very well..she is NOT anti sex..she desires a lot more sex than what her husband is willing I dont know if you missed that part I think she has mentioned it.I think she is saying she values her marriage for many other things that are important so she has adjusted herself to accept she isnt going to have as much sex as she would have preferred..Adn that wasnt easy for her to do either..its not like she coudl take it or leave it with sex..She has cried many tears over the fact ehr husband doesnt have the kind of desire and passion for her that she had "expected" woudl be the case..

Dallas


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

dahling said:


> *
> I highly doubt sex is how guys bond in a relationship considering the common mindsets of 'her orgasm is her responsibility' and 'don't deny sex without a good reason'. Her orgasm being her responsibility while she has to accomodate his sexual desire suggests to me she has to be sexually available to him for his desire but he doesn't have to sexually please for her desire. *


*

I think you've been scraping the bottom of the man barrel. These are silly and offensive stereotypes, seemingly based on your personal experience.*


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

janefw said:


> I am not anti-sex, lol. I enjoy sex. I don't withhold. My husband withholds. I know from a 13 year marriage of having to live with his low libido, that it can be done, and that it's worth it - especially where there are children - to lower your sexual expectations, and to maintain the marriage, because love isn't all about wanting your #1 desire met.
> 
> So you have me entirely wrong.


That is not the issue to me. What I don't do is judge you for the choices you make and for the balancing of needs that you have. Your initial post flat out said that people who made a different choice were wrong. Moreover, it stated that sexual needs were inferior to other needs. That is insulting and judgmental. It tells people who have different views they are wrong. That is my issue.

I don't think your choice is wrong. It may not have been the choice I made (and frankly, wihtout all the facts, I can't even say that.) But I certainly won't tell you that your balancing your needs is wrong.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Quote:If she was sick, that's a different topic. I'd stick by my wife, faithful and loyal. I pride myself in that. 
END QUOTE

But I dont understand this..if SEX is a "need" or else the marriage dies ..how then does it matter whats the cause?Or are you saying that if yoru wife was ill and could not have sex or rarely coudl have sex you would consider the marraige dead but stay anyway?

Dallas


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> Quote:If she was sick, that's a different topic. I'd stick by my wife, faithful and loyal. I pride myself in that.
> END QUOTE
> 
> But I dont understand this..if SEX is a "need" or else the marriage dies ..how then does it matter whats the cause?Or are you saying that if yoru wife was ill and could not have sex or rarely coudl have sex you would consider the marraige dead but stay anyway?
> ...


If your husband willingly refused to talk to you, would you stick around? Would your marriage die in that scenario? Yet you would probably still stick around if he had a stroke and lost their speech, right? Why? Would you consider the latter scenario a dead marriage?


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> Quote:If she was sick, that's a different topic. I'd stick by my wife, faithful and loyal. I pride myself in that.
> END QUOTE
> 
> But I dont understand this..if SEX is a "need" or else the marriage dies ..how then does it matter whats the cause?Or are you saying that if yoru wife was ill and could not have sex or rarely coudl have sex you would consider the marraige dead but stay anyway?
> ...


Because there are two aspects to love. We express love to our spouses via our words and actions and our spouses in turn express love to us via their words and actions. 

There's a big difference between 'can't' and 'won't' when it comes to showing love. If your spouse can't do something, that's one thing. But if they won't, and that something is important to you, then it is easy to begin do doubt whether they really love you or not.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> Quote:If she was sick, that's a different topic. I'd stick by my wife, faithful and loyal. I pride myself in that.
> END QUOTE
> 
> But I dont understand this..if SEX is a "need" or else the marriage dies ..how then does it matter whats the cause?Or are you saying that if yoru wife was ill and could not have sex or rarely coudl have sex you would consider the marraige dead but stay anyway?
> ...


Are you deliberately not understanding? I am just curious. Let's try this again. Sex is a need in marriage. It isn't simply a WANT. It isn't a "need" it is a NEED.. no quotes. Quotes implies that you feel it unnecessary to the dynamic of a married couple. When someone is sick, they are incapable of meeting that need. It is thru no fault of their own. When someone blatantly denies the spouse, that is their own fault. If they are unwilling to even see if anything CAN be done to fix the issue, that shows there is no desire to meet the needs of the other spouse. If they go to the doctor and there is a simple fix for the issue, but they don't want to do it... not because they don't believe in putting chemicals into their bodies, but because that means they would have to perform... how is that a healthy marriage?

If, no matter what is tried...and IF they put an honest effort into actually TRYING, instead of saying "I don't care what you need, I don't want it, so you're not getting it" (And I mean that by attitude, not just saying those words)... why SHOULD the spouse stick around? If one spouse gives the attitude that he or she has no interest in meeting the needs of his or her spouse, that isn't a marriage... they are room mates.

And, yes, I would say that to any need in the marriage... not WANTS, but NEEDS. If an illness, or accident, or some other thing occurs which causes the lack of sex, that is different. That is something that cannot be helped. That is something out of their control. But willfully withholding is NOT out of their control...that is spiteful.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

O.K but your missign my question ..if sex is a NEED or else the marriage DIES how then is the marriage not DEAD if no or lets say very infreqent sex can happen due to no no fault of the spouse who can not?How does the marraige stay alive without SEX if no sex kills it no matter what the reason ?

How is it "dffernt" when the bottom line is there is still no sex if sex is a need or else the marriage dies even if it cant be helped?There is still no sex..So is the marriage dead?If not how so if SEX must be present for an alive marriage?

Dallas


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I think you're right Maricha, she's just trying to be contrary. She knows exactly how important it is, and she knows that "intent" means something in these situations. She's just trying to be difficult. Probably gets off on the attention.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

Sex in a marriage is a need. If you can't have vaginal sex there is oral, anal, all kinds of sex that can take the place of vaginal sex. Sex, or that level of intimacy is necessary. It helps bring people closer together. A lot of EA and PA are started when there is a lack of sex. But really unless you have no hands, or mouth, or have been abused as a child and sex is a major issue. Then sex can happen. 
If there is no sex then you better have a damn good replacement.
If there is no sex the marriage will begin to die. A wedge will begin to form where one partner will want what the other one won't give. Which opens the door to EA and PA. At that point the marriage has one foot in the grave.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

dallasapple said:


> O.K but your missign my question ..if sex is a NEED or else the marriage DIES how then is the marriage not DEAD if no or lets say very infreqent sex can happen due to no no fault of the spouse who can not?How does the marraige stay alive without SEX if no sex kills it no matter what the reason ?
> 
> How is it "dffernt" when the bottom line is there is still no sex if sex is a need or else the marriage dies even if it cant be helped?There is still no sex..So is the marriage dead?If not how so if SEX must be present for an alive marriage?
> 
> Dallas


you just like to argue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! how many time do different people have to explain it to you.

what is a need? air, without you die,water with out you die,food without you die.

thoese are needs to keep a person alive.


a marriage has needs also but it not a breathing thing so the needs in a marriage are different than the needs to keep a person alive.

love is a need for marriage,compassion is a need for marriage,companionship is a need for a marriage,desire is a need for a marriage ,hot monkey sex is a need for a marriage.......well just sex some some. I'm sure there are many others I left out.


so lets say your wife has a illness that prevents her for having inercourse. then her compassion would kick in and she would try to meet your need for hot monkey sex by giving hand jobs/blow jobs/or just being intamite with you as you masterbate or whatever it took. and the partner who can have intercourse would show compassion by understanding that because of your illness you can't have intercourse and would be accepting of your efforts to still be intamite even though intercourse was not possible.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

Sex is not a need, it is a want. 

People open doors to EAs and PAs all on their own. Plenty of EAs and PAs take place without anything being amiss in the sexual relationship. Some people are just greedy and like to point the finger at their spouse and say that if that person had just given them enough of this, or that, or they had just done th is or that - then everything would have been perfect. It's just not so. The person who cheats will cheat again .. and again .. and again ..

There are choices. Either you weather your marriage because you are in it for the long haul, or you are a quitter that gets out as soon as it gets tough.


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## Aristotle (Apr 4, 2012)

I'd pride myself in taking care of my sick wife. I hope she never gets sick, but if she does, she chose to keep the right man satisfied, because I'd be by her side everyday, holding her hand, and being the man she knew I was when she married me. I hope this is why my wife takes care of me now.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> you just like to argue. how many time do different people have to explain it to you.


 When someone holds a different opinion, borne from experience, how do you think that your "explanation" is going to change their experience?



> what is a need? air, without you die,water with out you die,food without you die.
> 
> thoese are needs to keep a person alive.


Exactly. Those are the only needs out there.



> a marriage has needs also but it not a breathing thing so the needs in a marriage are different than the needs to keep a person alive.


No. There are needs and there are wants. I want a chocolate sundae. Is that a need? No, it's a want. Someone wants anal sex. Is it a need? No, it's a want. 



> love is a need for marriage,compassion is a need for marriage,companionship is a need for a marriage,desire is a need for a marriage ,hot monkey sex is a need for a marriage.......well just sex some some. I'm sure there are many others I left out.
> 
> so lets say your wife has a illness that prevents her for having inercourse. then her compassion would kick in and she would try to meet your need for hot monkey sex by giving hand jobs/blow jobs/or just being intamite with you as you masterbate or whatever it took. and the partner who can have intercourse would show compassion by understanding that because of your illness you can't have intercourse and would be accepting of your efforts to still be intamite even though intercourse was not possible.


If someone has an illness - surely the compassion should be directed towards the person with the illness, and not to the person who is able bodied. 

I guess that some people are so greedy and unloving that, regardless of circumstances it's a case of "give me sex or I am out of that door."


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

janefw said:


> Sex is not a need, it is a want.
> 
> People open doors to EAs and PAs all on their own. Plenty of EAs and PAs take place without anything being amiss in the sexual relationship. Some people are just greedy and like to point the finger at their spouse and say that if that person had just given them enough of this, or that, or they had just done th is or that - then everything would have been perfect. It's just not so. The person who cheats will cheat again .. and again .. and again ..
> 
> There are choices. Either you weather your marriage because you are in it for the long haul, or you are a quitter that gets out as soon as it gets tough.


Its a need for marriage not for life. most people would say why be married if theres no sex!

I guess with your though process love isn't a need either. but studies have shown that baby monkies who are taken away for mom but still given food water and shelter die!

there are needs for sustaning life and there are needs for sustaning a happy life and at least for me sex is a need to stay in a marriage unless there were extenuanating cercomstances!


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> Its a need for marriage not for life. most people would say why be married if theres no sex!
> 
> I guess with your though process love isn't a need either. but studies have shown that baby monkies who are taken away for mom but still given food water and shelter die!
> 
> there are needs for sustaning life and there are needs for sustaning a happy life and at least for me sex is a need to stay in a marriage unless there were extenuanating cercomstances!


Relying on sex in marriage for your happiness seems pretty tenuous to me. But that's just me.

Why would love not be a need? Why even marry if there is no love?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Love is a verb Jane. And again, I think you already know this. You're just being argumentative for the fun of it.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I think you're right Maricha, she's just trying to be contrary. She knows exactly how important it is, and she knows that "intent" means something in these situations. She's just trying to be difficult. Probably gets off on the attention.


wow thats a really nice assumption to make about me..but anyway thats not the case ...

I dont know how "intent" can make the difference if its "sex is a need" or else the marriage dies...

It would have to be more than sex bieng the need if the sex is gone through no ill intent on the partner who cant have sex.

I dont understand why my question cant be answered..sex is a need or marriage dies UNLESS they cant help it..then the marriage can survive fine with no sex..

Im not beign difficult ..anyone can answer the question whenever they feel like it.

Im actually wondering..is it the assumption its with malice that someone doesnt want sex even though they can physically do "it".?

I want to make one thing clear to in case anyone wants to make anymore negative assumptions about me..I do not beleive that witholdign sex to punish,retailaite,manipulate,bargain ,play power games is lovign in anyway ..in fact I think its cruel..undignified adn shameful..I also dont beleive anyone should stay married to someone who treats you like that..I also dont bleive that if its just a matter of low drive (with no intient to hurt the toher person ) that no efforts shuould be made to boost that level of desire..I bleive ALL avialable help should be seeked out..but I also beleive that same person shouldnt be shamed angered coerced threatened becasue they have that issue..that is cruel to do to someone yu love just becasue you arent being 100% sexually fulfilled..I also do not beleiv that someone with a normal level of desire (nto LOW just LOWER) shoudl be expected to increase their activity regardless of their discomfort (emotionally mentally physically) to meet the higher drives need on a regular ongoing baisis ..Some compromise sure......but having sex when your partner KNOWS you dont want to ..often is also very emotionally painful and makes the LOWER(not lo) dirve person feel uncared for..and it does since you dont watn it feel like its just yoru body they want and dont really care about "you"..

Dallas


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

janefw said:


> Relying on sex in marriage for your happiness seems pretty tenuous to me. But that's just me.
> 
> Why would love not be a need? Why even marry if there is no love?


its just one of many needs for a happy marriage atleast for me!


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

dallasapple said:


> wow thats a really nice assumption to make about me..but anyway thats not the case ...
> 
> I dont know how "intent" can make the difference if its "sex is a need" or else the marriage dies...
> 
> ...


well thats how most men feel when we suport wives and families without getting our need foe sex/love makeing we start to feel like all you want is our paycheck and we don't like forking over all our pay to someone who dose not desire to have sex with their husband.



sometime it can't be resolved and divorce is best for everybody!


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

janefw said:


> Sex is not a need, it is a want.


If by this, you mean that you won't die without sex, then I would agree.

But we could just as easily say that human companionship is similarly a want rather than a need. We could say that liberty is a want rather than a need. That doesn't mean that you or anyone else would spend the rest of their life in solitary confinement if there was any way to avoid it.

Actually I think restricting the meaning of the word 'Need' to only the objective and physical is 'channeling' through narrow, esoteric definition.

Typical definitions of the word include the idea of psychological needs, even citing affection as an example:

"Something necessary or very important"
(Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged)

"Something required because it is essential or very important."
(Merriam Webster)

"To be in need of, to require: _people need affection, the job needs to be done_."
(Webster's New Lexicon Dictionary)​


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

janefw said:


> Relying on sex in marriage for your happiness seems pretty tenuous to me. *But that's just me.*
> 
> Why would love not be a need? Why even marry if there is no love?


You summed it up beautifully right there....

Love is a need, of course. Love is expressed in many ways. Some feel loved by being touched. Some feel loved when they have meaningful conversations. Some feel loved thru acts of service...and on and on. What works FOR YOU doesn't necessarily work FOR ME...nor for anyone else. 

We aren't talking about the things in life that happen that prevent it. We aren't even talking about LD vs HD. What we are saying is the *willful withholding* of a basic need of a MARRIAGE...willful, as in no attempt at compromising in other areas. As in not caring how the spouse feels about it. 

Some would turn to cheating. Some would rather end the marriage rather than betray THEIR side of the vows. Personally, I would prefer my husband divorce me if I was willfully withholding sex from him...rather than have any kind of sex with someone else.

In the event that I am physically incapable of meeting that need for him, I don't know. I can say that I would want him to seek it elsewhere in that situation, but unless an emergent situation like that comes up, I can't say for sure. I could also say I would be ok with porn viewing in that case as well. Again, I don't know. The one thing I can say with certainty is that if he withheld out of spite, I would leave. Again, this is WILLFUL neglect, not due to health (and I view LD/HD to be health... be it psych/mental/physical). Willful neglect would be doing it because they don't care about spouse's needs at all, and are unwilling to try ANYTHING, even compromise.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> well thats how most men feel when we suport wives and families without getting our need foe sex/love makeing we start to feel like all you want is our paycheck and we don't like forking over all our pay to someone who dose not desire to have sex with their husband.
> 
> 
> 
> sometime it can't be resolved and divorce is best for everybody!


Well if you are O,.K with knowing you are having sex with someone in exhcnge for a "pay check" why didnt you just skip the marriage part and just hire prosititues?

and how do you explain it when the wife earns just as much or more?How does the guy feel then if she is LOWER drive?And she is "forking over' all her pay for you and the kids?

Dallas


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Love is a verb Jane. And again, I think you already know this. You're just being argumentative for the fun of it.


Patronizing much? It astonishes me that people make such grand judgements about complete strangers on the internet. 

No, I'm not being argumentative. I'm giving my view, opinion and experience. It may not be yours, and that's fine, but mine is just as valid as your view and that of anyone else that posts here. I really wouldn't waste my energy on arguing with complete strangers for "fun".


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> You summed it up beautifully right there....
> 
> Love is a need, of course. Love is expressed in many ways. Some feel loved by being touched. Some feel loved when they have meaningful conversations. Some feel loved thru acts of service...and on and on. What works FOR YOU doesn't necessarily work FOR ME...nor for anyone else.
> 
> ...


Well, you can just leave your marriage then, that's entirely up to you. But I view that as a cop out. 

Again, it's all about choices.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> well thats how most men feel when we suport wives and families without getting our need foe sex/love makeing we start to feel like all you want is our paycheck and we don't like forking over all our pay to someone who dose not desire to have sex with their husband.
> 
> 
> 
> sometime it can't be resolved and divorce is best for everybody!


Also one more thing..I think you should get a divorce..and support your children and let your wife go instead of expecting her to give you sex for a paycheck..thats just degradign man..If you have ever said "my paycheck" and havign sex with her in the same sentence I can assure you that is enough right there for her to shut down completely..This whole "wives instead of prostitutes thing is a no go..Just hire the prostitute its their JOB..IF you can afford it depending on how much sex you think you need..

Dallas


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> well thats how most men feel when we suport wives and families without getting our need foe sex/love makeing we start to feel like all you want is our paycheck and we don't like forking over all our pay to someone who dose not desire to have sex with their husband.
> 
> sometime it can't be resolved and divorce is best for everybody!


Some wives support husbands and families. It still doesn't give us the right to demand sex "or else". That's bullying and blackmailing, and yes, you might as well just get a blow up doll, because that behavior has nothing to do with love.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

> sometime it can't be resolved and divorce is best for everybody!


Including the kids? Kids are not better off without two parents - you can look up any statistics out there, and see the truth of that. More likely to abuse drugs, more likely to have sex early, more likely to divorce ..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

janefw said:


> Some wives support husbands and families. It still doesn't give us the right to demand sex "or else". That's bullying and blackmailing, and yes, you might as well just get a blow up doll, because that behavior has nothing to do with love.


Its more than that..its prostitution ..If you say "Im paying the blils therefore you shodl have al the sex I want"?..Come on..Doesnt matter if its the guy or the gal ..

Its demeaning and repulsvie..Not only that what if the BILL PAYER is the one not wanting sex with the NON paycheck one????How do you weild your power then?

Dallas


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

janefw said:


> Sex is not a need, it is a want.
> 
> People open doors to EAs and PAs all on their own. Plenty of EAs and PAs take place without anything being amiss in the sexual relationship. Some people are just greedy and like to point the finger at their spouse and say that if that person had just given them enough of this, or that, or they had just done th is or that - then everything would have been perfect. It's just not so. The person who cheats will cheat again .. and again .. and again ..
> 
> There are choices. Either you weather your marriage because you are in it for the long haul, or you are a quitter that gets out as soon as it gets tough.


I am fine if it is not a need for your marriage. However, you do not get to tell me if it is a need in my marriage. That you would do so, and belittle those that have different needs, is telling. Under your definition, there are no emotional needs, only emotional wants. I dsiagree with this line of thinking.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

janefw said:


> Sex is not a need, it is a want. .


SAYYY WHHAATTTTTTT. I am glad I am not married to you. Since every thing on the planet that is alive has to have sex to procreate and exist, (except for asexual creatures) we have the urge to make babies coded into our dna. 
While lack of sex doesn't start an EA or PA it creates a lack of intimacy. If you aren't getting your emotional, and physical needs met in a marriage. Then the likely-hood that you will go looking for it outside of marriage increase magnanimously.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

janefw said:


> Including the kids? Kids are not better off without two parents - you can look up any statistics out there, and see the truth of that. More likely to abuse drugs, more likely to have sex early, more likely to divorce ..


That depends as well. My sister's kids are far better off with their parents divorced than with them married. You can see it in their behavior. They see BOTH parents daily. Ex-brother-in-law cheated on my sister when he was in a mental hospital. She forgave him. When he got out, he was an @ss. Not regarding that, but regarding other aspects of their marriage. Should she have stuck it out for the kids? Let them see THAT dynamic of a marriage? No. Because then the kids would grow up thinking THAT is how a marriage is supposed to be. If mom and dad are tense, the kids see it. If mom and dad are unhappy, the kids see it. No matter how much you may try to hide it from the kids, they know. And if you try to cover it up, they think that's how a marriage is supposed to be. Statistics don't take into account ALL the factors. And, statistics can be messed with as well. I have cousins who were from broken homes as well. Funny how those things you listed don't apply to even one of them. Of 15 cousins... 2 would even come close...and that would be the "sex when younger". Yet, they don't qualify...just close. And, if we were to add in broken homes vs criminal activity...again, only two of the 15. The ones who were in INTACT homes, however... THEY were the ones who engaged in sex at young ages.

I don't put much stock in statistics for that reason. I have seen the opposite with my own eyes.

But, based on what you have stated above: my nieces and nephews will more than likely have sex early, use drugs, and divorce their spouses when they eventually marry. The problem with that theory is that their mothers have strong moral compasses. They just happened to choose to divorce.

I don't pretend to know your situation. But I will agree: it's all about choice, and what is important to YOU, may not be important TO ME. Fortunately, my husband also agrees sex is a need in OUR marriage. And, while I would prefer more often than once a week, I accept the once a week because I love him. I understand WHY he only wants it once a week now. And I ACCEPT that. MY CHOICE. But he and I BOTH agree that it is NEEDED in our marriage. But he is also doing what he can to figure out a way to FIX his lower drive. Yes, we connect in other ways. But, I suspect if he was purposely withholding, those other connections would decrease, resentment would build... and then what? Is there a marriage anymore?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

janefw said:


> Well, you can just leave your marriage then, that's entirely up to you. But I view that as a cop out.
> 
> Again, it's all about choices.


First, I never said I am leaving my marriage. I love my husband very much. And he is not withholding anything from me.
Second, you have every right to view it as a cop out * FOR YOU*. But you do NOT get to dictate MY marriage. The only people in MY marriage are my husband and me.
Third, you are right, it IS all about choices. And we all have every right to make the choices WE believe best for US and OUR FAMILIES. You choose what is best for yours. I wouldn't dream of telling you what is best IN YOUR SITUATION. I am not you.



> People open doors to EAs and PAs all on their own. Plenty of EAs and PAs take place without anything being amiss in the sexual relationship. Some people are just greedy and like to point the finger at their spouse and say that if that person had just given them enough of this, or that, or they had just done th is or that - then everything would have been perfect. It's just not so. *The person who cheats will cheat again .. and again .. and again *..
> 
> There are choices. Either you weather your marriage because you are in it for the long haul, or you are a quitter that gets out as soon as it gets tough.


And that is the biggest load of bull**** I have read thus far. So, by your words... I will have another EA...and another... and another... And my husband will do the same. You don't know what happened in my marriage. Yes, *I* made the choice to have an EA. Yes, my husband made the choice as well. But we have since addressed the problems. They both started innocently.. confiding in MUTUAL friends. I don't pretend to believe my husband CAUSED my EA. I began it all on my own. He was suffering severe depression and my coping skills sucked big time. I started crying to a friend about how I couldn't handle it. Eventually, talk turned to other topics, taking my focus off of his illness. I became emotionally disconnected from my husband. The first time, he caught it. The second time, he had one of his own. And I then knew what he went thru the first time. My point is, We are both determined this will never happen again. We both made the choice to end the EAs. We both made the choice to recommit to each other. We both are committed to making our marriage work. To say that we will do this again and again and again is a load of bull.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

badbane said:


> SAYYY WHHAATTTTTTT. I am glad I am not married to you. Since every thing on the planet that is alive has to have sex to procreate and exist, (except for asexual creatures) we have the urge to make babies coded into our dna.
> While lack of sex doesn't start an EA or PA it creates a lack of intimacy. If you aren't getting your emotional, and physical needs met in a marriage. Then the likely-hood that you will go looking for it outside of marriage increase magnanimously.


So every time you have sex do you conceive? If not, then we are having sex for other reasons than procreation. And people who don't want kids - should they not have sex?

I don't get any of those needs met but I don't go looking for it outside of marriage. Only the weak fall by the wayside.

Magnanimous = kind, and brave and courageous. I don't think that's what you meant.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

daffodilly said:


> I divorced my exhusband because he cheated. My teenage daughter, who is an A student, a competitive swimmer, does volunteer work, wins awards at school, helps out her special needs brother without being asked...is more likely to abuse drugs, be promiscuous and divorce??? All because I chose not to stay with someone I no longer trusted?
> 
> If I had stayed in that marriage I'd be a miserable, paranoid woman. Not a life I'd want to model for her. Instead she's exposed to a healthy, loving marriage based on love, respect and trust. I don't believe in staying for the sake of the children, unless both parties can resolve their differences and live in a loving marriage. Kids aren't stupid, they can tell if their parents hate each other. My best friend never had any respect for her mother because she stayed married to her father, who had affairs.
> 
> Sex is an expectation of marriage. It's not a chore, or any less of a priority than trust, respect, getting the laundry done, etc. It's an intimate act of love, and it's needed in a marriage to keep it healthy. There may be physical reasons why someone can't have sex, but I believe every effort should be made to express some kind of intimacy.


I should have put a disclaimer on it, that when abuse and adultery are present, I don't see any reason to stay in a marriage. That's why I divorced my ex husband. If there is no hope of the straying partner making any changes, I would not stick around for that, nor would I advise anyone else to stick around. But those risks are still out there for those kids - I mean, go look up some studies. It's one of the things that keeps me in my second marriage, despite lack of intimacy. The kids and their wellbeing just matter more than my hurt little feelings in this case, where there is no abuse or adultery.


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## dahling (Sep 26, 2011)

jaharthur said:


> I think you've been scraping the bottom of the man barrel. These are silly and offensive stereotypes, seemingly based on your personal experience.


If having such a mindset is the bottom of the man barrel it seems most guys are such. It's not silly as many guys bemoan the pressure and burden of fulfilling her sexual pleasure. As for offensive that's a toss up to me. 'Her orgasm is her responsibility 'does seem to be quite common mindsets in guys and it's not solely based on my personal experience or environment.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

> So, by your words... I will have another EA...


Who said I was talking about you? I have no idea what you have done, or whether you had an EA or your husband had an EA, or whatever, and I don't particularly care. The reality is that those people who stray - if they don't deal with their own issues, and instead put it all off on their partner - then they will most likely stray again when they feeeeeeel that they aren't getting what they want.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

One thing I do know..if you decide to get married and say its for "love and one party or the other is a stay at home parent..then you dont switch the game in the middle and say " I earn the money therfore I deserve sex in excahange"..your partner will be shocked and bewidlered that you had it set up as a "provider of money /sex exchange"...If thats your deal needs to be expressed up front..Some not many woudl agree to that..

IF they agree be happy havign sex with a permanet prostitute and dont complain if he/she doesnt really want YOU ..but has sex for YOUR PAY CHECK..

Dallas


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

janefw said:


> Who said I was talking about you? I have no idea what you have done, or whether you had an EA or your husband had an EA, or whatever, and I don't particularly care. The reality is that those people who stray - *if they don't deal with their own issues, and instead put it all off on their partner* - then they will most likely stray again when they feeeeeeel that they aren't getting what they want.


THAT is the main point of it. But it isn't just dealing with SELF... many times, something IS missing in the relationship. And, rather than fixing THAT, they stray. 

Incidentally, had you read past the first line you quoted, you would have seen that I said I DID have 2 EAs and my husband had one as well. The point is, you implied, in the part that I quoted above, that if they did it once, they will keep doing it. No mention of working out the problem, just a "this is this and that's that" kind of statement... an absolute. Then, you changed it.

The thing is... this is ALLLLLLL being rehashed from about 15 pages ago!


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

dahling said:


> If having such a mindset is the bottom of the man barrel it seems most guys are such. It's not silly as many guys bemoan the pressure and burden of fulfilling her sexual pleasure. As for offensive that's a toss up to me. 'Her orgasm is her responsibility 'does seem to be quite common mindsets in guys and it's not solely based on my personal experience or environment.


for some guys however he wants real..So pressuirng her to enjoy it is a big part of his pleasure..even if she is just not interested..He wannts that "photo shot" of her in the throws of pleasure for him to be able to get off.She has to be LOVING every secnd of it or its "no good" for him..PORN!

Dallas


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

janefw said:


> I should have put a disclaimer on it, that when abuse and adultery are present, I don't see any reason to stay in a marriage. That's why I divorced my ex husband. If there is no hope of the straying partner making any changes, I would not stick around for that, nor would I advise anyone else to stick around. But those risks are still out there for those kids - I mean, go look up some studies. It's one of the things that keeps me in my second marriage, despite lack of intimacy. The kids and their wellbeing just matter more than my hurt little feelings in this case, where there is no abuse or adultery.


Why those exceptions? Faithfulness is not a need, like air or food. You can certainly live without it. Its a want. So why is the line drawn their?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

There is NO pron that the girl isnt LOVING it...even rape scenes I've seen it all..she always WANTS it..

I read soem interviews with a cop who is asigned to porn..to distinguish it from "norm to criminal"..Including women (prostitutes) who for a price agreed to be raped on camera..To decide if the films were "unfit to circulate in the general public.(be availale)..Some of the sickest stuff you can imagine and I mean broken noses..ruptured spleens ..etc...

It was deemed .."acceptable"..I dotn trust a damn fool...

Dallas


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

Phenix70 said:


> Further proof to me that people should have sex before marriage, to see how compatiable they are sexually.
> Putting aside hormones levels that could crop up later in life, most people are going to know if they are LD or HD BEFORE they get married.
> Personally I'd rather know going in how often my partner wants to have sex.


agreed but to a degree 

your chances for divorce only increase the more sex you have outside of marriage. The more one night stands you have, the more sexual partners you have outside of marriage greatly increase your chances of divorce. Of course every individual is different but by and large and from the data and other stats i have seen generally speaking the higher number of sexual partners and higher number of one night stands equals a much much higher chance for divorce. 

So while i believe two people should be sexually compatible before marriage i feel some people who can wait it off that is fine. If it is a true love a consummate love and has passion intimacy and commitment than it will never fail even if one is High drive and the other spouse is low drive. More people should treat sex as sacred and important and more people (imo) should be more careful with sex. When you start giving it up so easy and sleeping around a lot you only increase your chances for divorce (statistically speaking at least).


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

thunderstruck said:


> While I don't agree with the OP's parlor choice, he does have a point here. I've done Athol's stuff over the past few years. At 44, I'm in great shape, I dress better, I get better haircuts, I feel way more confident...so, all of a sudden, I get looks and interactions from the ladies. My W has noticed all of this, and it bugs the hell out of her. Still, I just get the duty stuff. I've never cheated, and don't plan to.
> 
> But, the OP's warning is valid...if you aren't taking care of your H's basic needs, and he's walking out of the house every morning feeling like he's a loaded weapon...bad things may happen.


exactly and a female who feels the same way would likely be a high risk personality and be a female who might cheat. Just as a male who does cheat as in TS displays that he is a risky individual.

I do think its astounding that he does not regret what he did and is basically proud to have cheated on his wife. As to why he is telling and bragging about it is beyond my understanding. 

Unbelievable


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Why those exceptions? Faithfulness is not a need, like air or food. You can certainly live without it. Its a want. So why is the line drawn their?


Because its a WANT..a deep WANT that most except as a want..havent met many men or women that dotn give a flip if their wife or husand is out havign sex with other people..

Dallas


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> Because its a WANT..a deep WANT that most except as a want..havent met many men or women that dotn give a flip if their wife or husand is out havign sex with other people..
> 
> Dallas


So there are some wants that are okay to blow up the marriage over, while others are not? Who gets to make that list?


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## dahling (Sep 26, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Why those exceptions? Faithfulness is not a need, like air or food. You can certainly live without it. Its a want. So why is the line drawn their?


Abuse is likely an exception as it's a crime in some areas. Adultery is likely an exception as it's a crime in some areas and the definition of a monogamous relationship doesn't permit cheating. The line likely isn't drawn at having sex to accomodate the HD partner's sexual desire as it's not a crime to not do so nor is it in the definition of a relationship.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

janefw said:


> So every time you have sex do you conceive? If not, then we are having sex for other reasons than procreation. And people who don't want kids - should they not have sex?


Still missed the point you said sex was not a need in a marriage. I said the need for sex is programmed into us. Regardless of whether or not you can conceive is irrelevant. The drive is still there. Even ones who can't have sex still want to have sex. Your just mincing words rather than discussing the topic.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

dahling said:


> Abuse is likely an exception as it's a crime in some areas. Adultery is likely an exception as it's a crime in some areas and the definition of a monogamous relationship doesn't permit cheating. The line likely isn't drawn at having sex to accomodate the HD partner's sexual desire as it's not a crime to not do so nor is it in the definition of a relationship.


Even assuming adultary is a crime, you can live with a spouse that is a law breaker (most of us do, as many of us have traffic tickets or have jaywalked). Again, that is not a need, merely a want. No different than fidelity, or love or even having your spouse talk to you. If your spouse refused to have any conversation with you beyond pass the salt, would you stick around? Conversation, after all, is merely a want, as you can live without it. 

This argument really boils down to some people refusing to respect those that have a need in their relationship for sex. They don't, and fashion themselve superior to those who do. 

Very convenient that a small group of them suddenly have made an appearance all at the same time, posting on the same subjects, and even knowing each other.


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## calalily (Jun 27, 2012)

Wow, you just made my day. I was on here feeling sorry for myself because of a argument I had with my husband when I read your post. After reading it, I feel like the luckiest woman in the world for not marrying an insensitive, selfish man like you. Not only is a hj and bj cheating, but the fact that you went to a "business" to have it done by a complete stranger is pathetic and disloyal. You got married for better or worse...good times or bad. Your marriage has conflict and you run off to please yourself. Honey, maybe your wife doesnt have the problem, maybe its you and thats why she won't sleep with you. Would you like to find out she had another man pleasing her because you didnt do the job. Bet you would consider it cheating then. You make it sound like your wife had some sort of defect and it is her fault you had to do what you did. Hey if that makes you sleep better at night, than more power to you. I just hope she finds out who she really is married to.:soapbox:


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

badbane said:


> Still missed the point you said sex was not a need in a marriage. I said the need for sex is programmed into us. Regardless of whether or not you can conceive is irrelevant. The drive is still there. Even ones who can't have sex still want to have sex. Your just mincing words rather than discussing the topic.


You said:


> .. we have the urge to make babies coded into our dna.


That's simply not true for everyone. There are millions of people who have chosen not to conceive - so why are they having sex if making babies is not coded into their DNA? 

It's pretty obvious to me from my 50 years on this earth that we are all made *very *differently.


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## dahling (Sep 26, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Even assuming adultary is a crime, you can live with a spouse that is a law breaker (most of us do, as many of us have traffic tickets or have jaywalked). Again, that is not a need, merely a want. No different than fidelity, or love or even having your spouse talk to you. If your spouse refused to have any conversation with you beyond pass the salt, would you stick around? Conversation, after all, is merely a want, as you can live without it.
> 
> This argument really boils down to some people refusing to respect those that have a need in their relationship for sex. They don't, and fashion themselve superior to those who do.
> 
> Very convenient that a small group of them suddenly have made an appearance all at the same time, posting on the same subjects, and even knowing each other.


Adultery is a crime related to marriage and again the definition of a monogamous relationship doesn't permit cheating. It's not about living with a partner who is a lawbreaker it's about a partner doing something that goes against the definition of monogamy. It's not about fidelity being a want not a need it's about infidelity going against the definition of monogamy. Adultery goes against that definition while not having sex to accomodate the HD partner doesn't.

As for your hypothetical there's a difference between not staying with a partner who doesn't do as you want and threatening your partner with 'do it or else' and stipulating your partner has to do this regardless of whether they want to or not.

This argument really boils down to some people refusing to respect those that don't see sex as a need. They take it as an attack and fashion themselves superior to those who don't see sex as a need.

I don't see how the small group not seeing sex as a need is anymore convenient than the large group who does. Likely many in those groups post on the same topics with those who have similar mindsets a few who they know.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Even assuming adultary is a crime, you can live with a spouse that is a law breaker (most of us do, as many of us have traffic tickets or have jaywalked). Again, that is not a need, merely a want. No different than fidelity, or love or even having your spouse talk to you. If your spouse refused to have any conversation with you beyond pass the salt, would you stick around? Conversation, after all, is merely a want, as you can live without it.


Equating abuse with traffic violations is kinda sad. Come on, you know better than that. If you think it's similar, try punching your neighbor the next time you see him, and see whether the cops just give you a ticket. 



> This argument really boils down to some people refusing to respect those that have a need in their relationship for sex. They don't, and fashion themselve superior to those who do.


You can have sex all you want. Who cares? Just don't put your "need" onto everyone else, and make it an excuse for adultery. It's not.



> Very convenient that a small group of them suddenly have made an appearance all at the same time, posting on the same subjects, and even knowing each other.


Should we have waited for an invitation from you? So far as I am aware, this forum is public, and anyone who wants to can sign up for an account and post here. The fact that one person found the forum, and told another person, does not make it a vast plot to rob you of your sex life. Really. Nobody here has that kind of power. Even if I bought some red slippers, and clicked the heels together, and wished really, really hard .. it ain't happening. And that's fine. Because I don't care what other people do so far as sex is concerned, I just think it's b.s. when I read all this hand wringing about how a dip in intimacy, or a LD partner is the end of the world.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Oh Nos!! I'm not having sex with my husband right now ...he's at work. I wonder who is having sex with him...


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

janefw said:


> Equating abuse with traffic violations is kinda sad. Come on, you know better than that. If you think it's similar, try punching your neighbor the next time you see him, and see whether the cops just give you a ticket.


I did not equate abuse with a traffic crime. I was mentioning adultery. I completely agree with leaving because of abuse, but then again I think of that as a need.



> You can have sex all you want. Who cares? Just don't put your "need" onto everyone else, and make it an excuse for adultery. It's not.


Wait, I thought you did not equate going without sex to automatically cheatin? You said that was someone elses position.

I don't think a spouse refusing sex justifies cheating. It can justify divorce.



> Should we have waited for an invitation from you? So far as I am aware, this forum is public, and anyone who wants to can sign up for an account and post here. The fact that one person found the forum, and told another person, does not make it a vast plot to rob you of your sex life. Really. Nobody here has that kind of power. Even if I bought some red slippers, and clicked the heels together, and wished really, really hard .. it ain't happening. And that's fine. Because I don't care what other people do so far as sex is concerned, I just think it's b.s. when I read all this hand wringing about how a dip in intimacy, or a LD partner is the end of the world.


:rofl: No idea what you are saying. I will say that you insult others who have a need for sex in their marriage, offer your opinion that they should not have that need, that it is in fact a want not a need, then run and hide behind it just being your opinion and that you don't care what others think. Heck, you can't even resits calling those who are concerned about a lack of sex in the marriage a joke. Very sad.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

dahling said:


> I don't see how the small group not seeing sex as a need is anymore convenient than the large group who does. Likely many in those groups post on the same topics with those wh have similar mindsets a few who they know.


Your missing my point. I completely concede that for you and others, sex may not be a need. I have no idea (and frankly don't care) how much or little you value it. I really have no problem with that.

What is insulting is you or jane or dallas posting that it should not be a need, that we are wrong to consider it a need, and that are lesser people for having that need. We are not lesser because our needs are different, and neither are you because your needs are different.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

janefw said:


> Equating abuse with traffic violations is kinda sad. Come on, you know better than that. If you think it's similar, try punching your neighbor the next time you see him, and see whether the cops just give you a ticket.
> 
> *You can have sex all you want. Who cares? Just don't put your "need" onto everyone else, and make it an excuse for adultery. It's not.*
> 
> Should we have waited for an invitation from you? So far as I am aware, this forum is public, and anyone who wants to can sign up for an account and post here. The fact that one person found the forum, and told another person, does not make it a vast plot to rob you of your sex life. Really. Nobody here has that kind of power. Even if I bought some red slippers, and clicked the heels together, and wished really, really hard .. it ain't happening. And that's fine. Because I don't care what other people do so far as sex is concerned, I just think it's b.s. when I read all this hand wringing about how a dip in intimacy, or a LD partner is the end of the world.


Jane...you are really arguing our point FOR us...we, meaning TAG, myself, and others who are like minded say *THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR ADULTERY*. We said we would rather our spouse DIVORCE than step out. We would rather our spouse STAY FAITHFUL to the marriage vows. You did, more than once, say those of us who have said what you JUST wrote above, were wrong. We, more than once, said "hey, if that's how your marriage works, fine for you. But that doesn't work FOR ME"... and you, essentially, DID say our thinking was wrong. Yet, we agree that a "dip in intimacy, or a LD partner" is not the end of the world. WE said if it was WILLFUL neglect...WILLFULLY WITHHOLDING... meaning that if the partner, whether LD or HD does NOT matter, PURPOSELY withholds sex "just because", and has no desire to meet that need, oh, excuse me, that PERCEIVED need (better?)... THAT would be a deal breaker FOR MANY OF US. However, in the situation, who knows? we may change our point of view. For now, this is how we PERCEIVE the issue. We have no intention of telling you that you have to follow OUR POV "or else". We are not telling our spouses "put out or else". If mine ever did say that, I can say right now that I would take the "or else"...and kick him to the curb. But we are not in that situation.

The thing is, so many are reading the first page, and maybe the last 5, and assuming that those of us saying we would divorce are saying that we agree with cheating. 

Ugh! This thread is making my head hurt. 

In conclusion:
1. My husband is currently LD
2. I am NOT divorcing him.
3. We DO have sex....we LIKE sex. We WANT sex. We BOTH agree that sex is important in OUR marriage.
4. If he were to have sex with someone else, be it vaginal, anal, hj, or bj, or anything exchanging bodily fluids...he's out.
5. Neither of is is ever issuing the "put out or get out" ultimatum.

Did I miss anything? Now...time to find that husband of mine and hold him down on the bed.....


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## dahling (Sep 26, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Your missing my point. I completely concede that for you and others, sex may not be a need. I have no idea (and frankly don't care) how much or little you value it. I really have no problem with that.
> 
> What is insulting is you or jane or dallas posting that it should not be a need, that we are wrong to consider it a need, and that are lesser people for having that need. We are not lesser because our needs are different, and neither are you because your needs are different.


Seems you've avoided my point about adultery being a crime related to marriage and goes against the definition of monogamy as you no longer can play the why is it an exception it's not a need it's a want game.

What is insulting is your lies about me.
Show me where I stated it shouldn't be a need.
Show me where I stated you're wrong to consider it a need.
Show me where I stated you're lesser people for having that need.
.....
.....
.....
Oh that's right you can't because nowhere did I state, suggest, or imply such. 

Though if you want to talk about insulting mindsets such as that it's far more common and heavily supported and defended to see on this forum to state it should be a need, you're wrong for not considering it a need, and that you're lesser people for not having that need.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

> Heck, you can't even resits calling those who are concerned about a lack of sex in the marriage a joke.


Where?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

dahling said:


> Seems you've avoided my point about adultery being a crime related to marriage and goes against the definition of monogamy as you no longer can play the why is it an exception it's not a need it's a want game.


Because it is still a want. A person can be married with a spouse who is not faithful, and still live. Maybe not happily, but they would live. It is merely a want. 

If you argue that adutery is a crime against marriage, I think willfully withholding sex is as well. Certainly not part of the whole love and cherish part of it.



> What is insulting is your lies about me.
> Show me where I stated it shouldn't be a need.
> Show me where I stated you're wrong to consider it a need.
> Show me where I stated you're lesser people for having that need.
> ...


Actually, you posted the following:



> I doubt sex is how guys generally bond considering how many lack sexual loyalty, see gals as sexual objects vs sexual beings, and easily separate love and sex. I highly doubt sex is how guys bond in a relationship considering the common mindsets of 'her orgasm is her responsibility' and 'don't deny sex without a good reason'. Her orgasm being her responsibility while she has to accomodate his sexual desire suggests to me she has to be sexually available to him for his desire but he doesn't have to sexually please for her desire. Not denying sex without a good reason implies that lack of consent/desire isn't a good reason suggesting to me it's having sex with her body not sex with her as whether she wants it or enjoys it doesn't matter what does matter is that she doesn't show. It may not even be about her body rather a female body as she's easily interchangeable for all this talk of 'bonding' and 'emotional needs'. Sex is likely akin to porn it's about his validation and ego servicing his needs and having her not show she dislikes doing such it's not about a mutual consensual activity done out of desire to give get pleasure.


Certainly implies all of sex not being a need, that others are wrong for considering it a need, and that men's pursuit of sex makes them lesser people.



> Though if you want to talk about insulting mindsets such as that it's far more common and heavily supported and defended to see on this forum to state it should be a need, you're wrong for not considering it a need, and that you're lesser people for not having that need.


I think you are wrong for not recognizing that it is a need for others. You are not wrong, and I would defend you strongly, for it not to be a need for you. You certainly are not lesser for it not being a need, merely different.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

janefw said:


> Where?


Your right, you did not call it a joke, you called it B.S.:



> Because I don't care what other people do so far as sex is concerned, I just think it's b.s. when I read all this hand wringing about how a dip in intimacy, or a LD partner is the end of the world.


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## dahling (Sep 26, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Because it is still a want. A person can be married with a spouse who is not faithful, and still live. Maybe not happily, but they would live. It is merely a want.


It is still an act that goes against the definition of monogamy as monogamy doesn't permit cheating. It's not about being a want or still being able to live with the spouse it's about adulterly going against the definition of monogamy which is likely why it's an exception.



Tall Average Guy said:


> If you argue that adutery is a crime against marriage, I think willfully withholding sex is as well. Certainly not part of the whole love and cherish part of it.


I'm not arguing that adultery is a crime against marriage. I am stating that adultery is a crime related to marriage in some areas. You can think willfully withholding sex is a crime however it's not and such thinking to me is akin to condoning rape. Stipulating your partner accomodates your sexual desire regardless of their consent and desire doesn't seem to be a part of the whole love and cherish part.



Tall Average Guy said:


> Actually, you posted the following:


I posted:
1. I doubt sex is how guys bond
_hmm nothing about sex isn't a need and it's wrong and being less to think otherwise_
2. many guys lack sexual loyalty
_hmm nothing about sex isn't a need and it's wrong and being less to think otherwise_
3. many guys see gals as sexual objects vs sexual beings
_hmm nothing about sex isn't a need and it's wrong and being less to think otherwise_
4. many guys easily separate love and sex. 
_hmm nothing about sex isn't a need and it's wrong and being less to think otherwise_
5. 'her orgasm is her responsibility' is a common mindset
_hmm nothing about sex isn't a need and it's wrong and being less to think otherwise_
6. 'don't deny sex without a good reason' is a common mindset
_hmm nothing about sex isn't a need and it's wrong and being less to think otherwise_
7. without a good reason implies that lack of consent/desire isn't a good reason 
_hmm nothing about sex isn't a need and it's wrong and being less to think otherwise_



Tall Average Guy said:


> Certainly implies all of sex not being a need, that others are wrong for considering it a need, and that men's pursuit of sex makes them lesser people.


It certainly implies that despite how I nowhere in that do I mention my opinion of whether sex is need, judge others on considering it a need, or state that the pursuit makes others lesser.

Do tell how you got that implication from a post stating I doubt sex is how guys bond and that the without a good reason mindset suggests to me it's having sex with her body not sex with her as whether she wants it or enjoys it doesn't matter what does matter is that she doesn't show such. 



Tall Average Guy said:


> I think you are wrong for not recognizing that it is a need for others. You are not wrong, and I would defend you strongly, for it not to be a need for you. You certainly are not lesser for it not being a need, merely different.


Different thought processes I don't think I'm wrong for not recognizing it as a need for others as I don't have to share the same opinions on needs as others do.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

QUOTE:So there are some wants that are okay to blow up the marriage over, while others are not? Who gets to make that list? END

Never said that..

Im sayign its all a WANT not a NEED..I WANT my husband to be faithful its nto a NEED..and VICE versa..

Dallas


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

QUOTE: I am stating that adultery is a crime related to marriage in some areas. You can think willfully withholding sex is a crime however it's not and such thinking to me is akin to condoning rape.END QUOTE

I agree..

Dallas


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

janefw said:


> When someone holds a different opinion, borne from experience, how do you think that your "explanation" is going to change their experience?
> 
> 
> Exactly. Those are the only needs out there.
> ...


well everbody has theri idea of what a marriage is supost to be like. and many people on hear have tried to explain their thoughts on the importance of sex in a marriage.

as healthy smart adults when dating these things should be discussed. I am absoulty certine that if sometime in my courtship my wife said ya know I feel sex is optional and someday I might decide to not want to have sex with you any more. or even if I have condition such as dry vagina because of menopause you will be on your own to try to satisfy your sexual needs. and you better not look at porn and bascially we will just be comfortable friends.

I would have ran for the hills!!!!!


I don't think there is anything wrong with being asexual/low libedo but I do feel it wrong to marry someone who values a rich satisfying sex life with the woman he loves.when thats not a priority to you also.

its the same with all big life values. if your religious then you would be making the same mistake marring someone who isn't religious.

if you want a big family then you should marry someone that having a big family is important to.

if your aginst drinking then don't marry someone who like to drink .

if your a saver maybe you would be better looking for someone who also is frugal.


while whats you say about the only real needs are the simple one to identify like air,food,water,shelter

I think you would be foolish to not realsie there is a lot of gray in the world and sometimes wants do indeed equal needs depending on the person.

maybe you should condicider some sort of amish life style.

why where colorfull cloths or have air condintioning or buy a nice house if your going to be a minamalist with you needs towords the ones you love don't be a hipacrite and have any wants.

you can eat brown rice and water for dinner because you really don't need any food that tastes great.


now in you statement about needing anal sex then I agree that there sould be some sort of compromise between loving adults and if there is something like golden showers or anal or spanking or whatever. then thats a deal breaker for either then its best to part ways.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Are the three of you (you know who I'm talking about) part of the same women's studies community college class or something?


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## dahling (Sep 26, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Are the three of you (you know who I'm talking about) part of the same women's studies community college class or something?


Quite unsure what women's studies has to do with not seeing sex as a need. That's more of a biological and psychological studies course.

I am amused at the implied slam on feminism. I surmise it's much hated amongst guys for giving gals financial freedom to escape sex on demand, making martial rape a crime, and encouraging gals to think of her body as her own rather than existing for his sexual pleasure to accomodate his desire.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

I'm sorry, I have to say it: ignore trolls.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

hahaha thought so.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

dahling said:


> I'm not arguing that adultery is a crime against marriage. I am stating that adultery is a crime related to marriage in some areas. *You can think willfully withholding sex is a crime however it's not and such thinking to me is akin to condoning rape. *Stipulating your partner accomodates your sexual desire regardless of their consent and desire doesn't seem to be a part of the whole love and cherish part.


Interesting... I looked up about willful sexual neglect and the first link that popped up was about "constructive abandonment" in divorce law... So, at the very least it IS grounds for divorce. The problem I see is that most people, I would believe, understand that sex is USUALLY a large part of a marital relationship. If it is realized that one has no interest whatsoever, I do NOT condone FORCING the spouse to give it up. But, if they do stay together, I think a reasonable compromise should be reached. 

Whether it is an open marriage or "happy ending massages" as long as it is not secretly done. That, really, is the main problem I found issue with regarding OP: it was secretly done, and he has no remorse over it. If his wife knew and was ok with it, far be it from me to tell him it was wrong. What matters is what works in each individual marriage. But BOTH need to be aware of EVERYTHING.

As I stated above, most people enter into a marriage with the understanding that sex is a relatively large part of the relationship. Some learn early on that they have little to no desire for sex. Very valid point. I would never tell them that they HAVE to have sex with their spouses when they don't want it. I would suggest that they figure out WHY they feel that way, and if it is something that can be fixed, make the effort to fix it. Of course, they are under no obligation to do so. But, if they expect that the person to whom they are married to feel the exact same way, that isn't fair either. I would think divorce would be preferable to calling someone a rapist for, essentially, forcing his or her spouse to have sex when they don't want it. Living in a sexless marriage isn't for everyone. There is nothing wrong with that.


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## dahling (Sep 26, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> Interesting... I looked up about willful sexual neglect and the first link that popped up was about "constructive abandonment" in divorce law... So, at the very least it IS grounds for divorce. The problem I see is that most people, I would believe, understand that sex is USUALLY a large part of a marital relationship. If it is realized that one has no interest whatsoever, I do NOT condone FORCING the spouse to give it up. But, if they do stay together, I think a reasonable compromise should be reached.
> 
> Whether it is an open marriage or "happy ending massages" as long as it is not secretly done. That, really, is the main problem I found issue with regarding OP: it was secretly done, and he has no remorse over it. If his wife knew and was ok with it, far be it from me to tell him it was wrong. What matters is what works in each individual marriage. But BOTH need to be aware of EVERYTHING.
> 
> As I stated above, most people enter into a marriage with the understanding that sex is a relatively large part of the relationship. Some learn early on that they have little to no desire for sex. Very valid point. I would never tell them that they HAVE to have sex with their spouses when they don't want it. I would suggest that they figure out WHY they feel that way, and if it is something that can be fixed, make the effort to fix it. Of course, they are under no obligation to do so. But, if they expect that the person to whom they are married to feel the exact same way, that isn't fair either. I would think divorce would be preferable to calling someone a rapist for, essentially, forcing his or her spouse to have sex when they don't want it. Living in a sexless marriage isn't for everyone. There is nothing wrong with that.


I'm aware of divorce law and constructive abandonment is not stating withholding sex is a crime it's stating withholding sex is grounds for a divorce. 

The problem is I see is that many guys don't see that sex is usually a mutual consensual activity done out of desire to give and get pleasure not to accomodate his desire regardless of hers. If it is realised that one has no interest or less interest I do not condone forcing the disinterested or less interested spouse to give it up and grin while doing so. I think a reasonable compromise is divorce or adultery with agreement rather than adultery without agreement or forcing your spouse to do have sex.

Interesting...I had no issue with the OP's secret infidelity he felt no remorse for as to me that's a common and excepted behavior for guys suggested by the typical threats of 'do it or else'. 

I agree that the lower desire partner would be best suited to figure out why and fix it or leave. It's not fair to me for the LD partner to have to accomodate the HD partner when there is masturbation. It's not fair to me for the HD partner to not have sex with a body to their desire. Most people...well gals it seems...enter into a marriage understanding that sex is a mutual consensual activity done out of desire to give and get pleasure. Living in a marriage where you're routinely forced to have sex when you don't want under the guise of 'physical need' and 'emotional need' when the person can use their hand isn't for everyone. There is nothing wrong with that.

Something I do think is wrong is considering it calling someone a rapist rather than a person is a rapist for forcing someone to have sex when they don't want to.


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## Banshee (May 23, 2012)

I've been reading the reaction to this post - and although a tremendous amount of discussion has been centered around potential "justification" of this OP's methods of release, I've not seen any posts from the OP regarding his communication with his wife. He's been married a long time, and it sounds like he's been deceiving her for the majority of his married life. 

I fully understand that both spouses have needs, and part of the responsibility of marriage is open communication. I wonder if years ago, when OP was first contemplating cheating, if he would have sat his wife down and shared his thoughts - what the outcome may have been. 

I've found that there are 2 sides to every story, and OP may have have contributed to the sexless marriage by not fulfilling her needs...

OP - how much discussion have you really had with your wife on this over the years? I'm not counting one-sided discussion (ie I need more sex). But the type of conversation that left you both with a clearer picture of what the other one needed in the relationship...

The success (or failure) of all marriages lies in the quality of communication between the partners...


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

As I am currently thirsty myself you will get no argument from me. A woman not willing to give anything should accept that a man will wonder. Whether that is leaving her or ....cheating.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

dahling said:


> I'm aware of divorce law and constructive abandonment is not stating withholding sex is a crime *it's stating withholding sex is grounds for a divorce.*


Which is what I said...



> The problem is I see is that many guys don't see that sex is usually a mutual consensual activity done out of desire to give and get pleasure not to accomodate his desire regardless of hers.* If it is realised that one has no interest or less interest I do not condone forcing the disinterested or less interested spouse to give it up and grin while doing so. I think a reasonable compromise is divorce or adultery with agreement rather than adultery without agreement or forcing your spouse to do have sex.*


Which is what we have been saying, and getting blasted for, for at least 5 pages....



> Interesting...I had no issue with the OP's secret infidelity he felt no remorse for as to me that's a common and excepted behavior for guys suggested by the typical threats of 'do it or else'.


I understand that is where you are coming from... I am sorry the men you have come across are like that. There have been men responding to this thread who feel the opposite of the OP sentiment. The majority, from what I read, say it was wrong that he shows no remorse for cheating. Fortunately, the men I know disagree with the OP.



> I agree that the lower desire partner would be best suited to figure out why and fix it or leave. It's not fair to me for the LD partner to have to accomodate the HD partner when there is masturbation. It's not fair to me for the HD partner to not have sex with a body to their desire. Most people...well gals it seems...enter into a marriage understanding that sex is a mutual consensual activity done out of desire to give and get pleasure. Living in a marriage where you're routinely forced to have sex when you don't want under the guise of 'physical need' and 'emotional need' when the person can use their hand isn't for everyone. There is nothing wrong with that.


YAY! Common ground! 



> Something I do think is wrong is considering it calling someone a rapist rather than a person is a rapist for forcing someone to have sex when they don't want to.


Sorry, I worded my statement incorrectly. Anyone who forces himself (or herself) on someone else is raping them. I agree with you. My train of thought got derailed with a 5 year old and 4 year old vying for my attention. I apologize. But, I do agree with you on this... forcing is rape.


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## dahling (Sep 26, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> Which is what I said...


Okay the higlighting me stating it's not a crime and you stating at the very least bit had me guessing some kind of argument of arguing it's like a crime. Apologizes for the misintrepretation. 



Maricha75 said:


> Which is what we have been saying, and getting blasted for, for at least 5 pages....


That's what you've said and nowhere did I blast you for saying such. To my recollection the general view from posters I've been responding to has been 'shut up and give it up', 'do it or else', 'it's a need how dare you not think so', and 'thinking it's not a need is judging others as wrong and lesser'. If there was any blasting done I'd think it'd be by several posters who view it as a need.



Maricha75 said:


> I understand that is where you are coming from... I am sorry the men you have come across are like that. There have been men responding to this thread who feel the opposite of the OP sentiment. The majority, from what I read, say it was wrong that he shows no remorse for cheating. Fortunately, the men I know disagree with the OP.


I'm not sorry as I don't see it as a negative as those guys I've met and others have met have been quite insightful and helpful. My opinion of guys and their view of sex is rarely invalidated as such is the case here where it's been heavily supported. There's guys on here that feel the opposite of the OP and guys who feel the same as the OP. The majority, I don't doubt, seem to say it's wrong he doesn't feel bad for cheating but it's understandable, justifiable, or her fault that he cheated. 



Maricha75 said:


> YAY! Common ground!


Pretty easy to find common ground with me if you're pro-compatibility. 



Maricha75 said:


> Sorry, I worded my statement incorrectly. Anyone who forces himself (or herself) on someone else is raping them. I agree with you. My train of thought got derailed with a 5 year old and 4 year old vying for my attention. I apologize. But, I do agree with you on this... forcing is rape.


No apologizes necessary.


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

Banshee - I appreciate that this is a very long thread...however I have said that 'we' had my wifes hormone levels checked and went to marriage counselling. So that kinda indicates we talked about it and tried to address it.


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

Its interesting to see the....'interaction' between a few posters!!

We all have 'emotional' needs....I beleive that as a husband it is my responsibility (and pleasure) to meet my wifes needs. 
It cuts both ways.

There appears to be a group of posters on here that give the impression that whilst the husband should meet, or atleast try to meet, his wifes emotional needs, it is not necessary for the wife to meet, or atleast try to meet her husbands emotional needs - especially his sexual needs.

As I have tried to point out, sometimes not always using the right words, is that by accepting marriage vows you are accepting all parts of the marriage 'deal'. The good, the bad and the ugly. 

For most, sex and intimacy is one of the 'good' things...for afew others it is one of the 'bad' things...but is still part of the deal to which we said 'I do'. 

If I was not meeting my wifes emotional needs and she decided to seek them elsewhere, I would only have myself to blame....


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Men who talk to other men (or women) about how they view sex:

Men sitting around "bonding" over beers. Talking about sex.
Hmmm. How many of them will admit to their manly buddies that without sex they feel UNmanly, unwanted, not attractive? They might SAY "I need to get laid 3 x a week or else". But no girly feelings are going to be expressed. 

How many women will open up to their female friends who are all dissing sex as a chore and say they get turned down by their husbands?

I'm one of those women that doesn't feel it's a marriage unless there is sex. I have told myself a million times that I could live without sex, and I can. I won't die without it. And it's not fair to rely on another person to relieve my stress, make me feel loved, or validate my attractiveness. My self esteem is MY job.

So okay, then how come I have a mental block to this? I've had extremely close male friends. And no sex. It's wonderful... but it's not marriage. That's supposed to be the one relationship where intimacy makes it special from everything else in the world. Without it.. it's just another male friend.

My male friends --- this is scrambling\hiking partners. Hours or days spent in the wilderness. Relying on each other to stay safe. No booze, no distractions, just sweat, dirt, trying not to get lost, and no nicey behavior. You get to know the real person, and there is certainly a bond that develops. And a lot of trust. With my LIFE in some cases. 

Without being able to be vulnerable (having sex), I just don't connect to that person beyond friends. No matter what. 
It's not a physcial need. It's emotional. And it's a want. 

No sex... and I fall out of love. Seriously.


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## Aristotle (Apr 4, 2012)

Deejov, I had a hard time following your reply. I am not sure if it is because it seems you jump back and forth or I just do not get what you are saying.



deejov said:


> I'm one of those women that doesn't feel it's a marriage unless there is sex. I have told myself a million times that I could live without sex, and I can. I won't die without it. And it's not fair to rely on another person to relieve my stress, make me feel loved, or validate my attractiveness. My self esteem is MY job.


It's not fair to rely on another person to make you feel loved? Huh?

You can love yourself, call yourself attractive, and have an awesome self esteem, but that doesn't mean in a marriage doing all of the above is your job. I mean, that is love, finding a person who validates what you have been telling yourself your whole life. Finding a person who makes you feel better about yourself, even moreso than you ever could. He completes you. And certainly, it's fair to rely on your life partner, the one you decided to marry and spend eternity with, to make you feel loved. 

I think I am just confusing your points here and not seeing the big picture of your reply. 



deejov said:


> Without being able to be vulnerable (having sex), I just don't connect to that person beyond friends. No matter what.
> 
> It's not a physcial need. It's emotional. And it's a want.
> 
> No sex... and I fall out of love. Seriously.


So confusing. I am not sure if you are arguing that sex is not an "emotional need" but a "want", like earlier in this thread, or you are just saying, it isn't a physical need (which is correct in some cases, but some men do physically need to "release" or they get infections/prostatitis, etc). Either way, if you do not have sex you fall out of love, it's an emotional need, otherwise the relationship dies.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

askari said:


> There appears to be a group of posters on here that give the impression that whilst the husband should meet, or atleast try to meet, his wifes emotional needs, it is not necessary for the wife to meet, or atleast try to meet her husbands emotional needs - especially his sexual needs.


I don't think that posters were saying this at all. I don't think many posters would disagree that BOTH husband and wife have a duty/responsibility to meet each other's needs (sexual needs included). 

However, many posters (myself included) disagree that a partner has a "right" to cheat when needs are not met. You are not "entitled" to cheat because you are sexually unfulfilled. Neither is a wife entitled to cheat because she is emotionally unfulfilled. Instead, you are entitled to seek other options (counseling, separation, divorce, etc...)

I think that many posters were also offended by the tone of entitlement throughout your response. Since your wife did not meet your needs, you believe you were justified in getting them met elsewhere. You issue a warning to women that they had better have sex with their husbands, "or else."


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Aristotle said:


> Deejov, I had a hard time following your reply. I am not sure if it is because it seems you jump back and forth or I just do not get what you are saying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For me personally....
sex makes you feel wanted, attractive, and all those wonderful things. And it does. 

If you rely on someone else to make you feel this way...

That leads to a conclusion that unless you are in a situation where "someone" desires you, pursues you, initiates sex with you on a regular basis, then you cannot be 
TRULY happy, or have a healthy sense of self esteem. It's external validation. Meaning unless someone shows you or proves to you what you think.. it's not true.

IMO, , that is giving in to their opinion.

What matters is what I think about myself. Otherwise... I would spend my life searching for the next someone who finds my desireable, to feel loved, wanted, needed. I would be constantly wanting validation that I am worthy of being loved. 

What I am NOT doing when there is no intimacy is GIVING love. 

Personally, it's more about what I am not sharing, than what I am not getting. I do not control anyone else. I cannot make someone make me feel loved, and punish them when they don't do it. That's my job. To love myself.


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

I started this post....I was trying to share my experiences...that I felt rejected by my wife and ended up doing what I did. I also said that I now feel so much closer to my wife now that she has become 100% more sexual. It has benefitted our marriage enormously. 

I have taken a bit of a battering and responded trying to explain things in possibly less threatening or confrontational ways.
I am not alone in what I did and nor am I trying to make excuses. My wife was rejecting me, I was 'weak' and went elsewhere....I'm human.

It takes TWO to make a marriage work...if one party doesn't make the effort then eventually something will 'break'.

This post is now 30 pages long...it has eveolved into a general discussion on, basically, whether either spouse is right (fair) in expecting their emotional needs (sexual or otherwise) to be met by their spouse.

I think its probably time this thread ceases to be 'personal' to me ie. 'I think many posters were also offended by the tone of entitlement throughout your response'...and becomes a general discussion about whether it is fair to expect your (both parties) needs to be met within in the marriage....and if one party fails to meet those needs then what options are open to the other party.....


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## confused55 (Apr 30, 2011)

askari,

My husband went for erotic massages and I caught him setting one up in an email.

This happened 1.5 years ago, and I'm still really resentful about it and will never ever think of him as my great husband anymore. I have quit wearing a wedding ring and I have to say it has destroyed my joy in life.

I've asked him to leave on several occasions, but he won't, and I'm not leaving the house. It should not be me leaving.

You should tell your wife of your cheating, because it is much better that way than if she finds out another way, and she probably will somehow, someday, and it won't be pretty.

Although, if you tell her, she may ask you to leave.

If my husband came to me out of guilt (wasn't guilty) and told me what he was up to, things would be a lot better now.

He has always been a great husband, father, etc., but to me this negates all of that.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> I think that many posters were also offended by the tone of entitlement throughout your response. Since your wife did not meet your needs, you believe you were justified in getting them met elsewhere. You issue a warning to women that they had better have sex with their husbands, "or else."


I can see how offensive it was, but I wonder if it's also reflective of the different ways men and women view the world?

Early on in this thread, Gaia said:



Gaia said:


> If it happened to be the WIFE not getting HER needs fulfilled? I doubt there would be many emphasizing how important it is to "take care" of the wifes needs or else....


Actually, this could not be farther from the truth. The idea that some other man might come along who is more glib and witty, talks better than us, connects better than us and just generally does all the things that women need that we as men aren't terribly good at is a typical male insecurity. 

Women address that fear as an issue of trust and that's fair. But all men know deep down in their hearts that there are men who would not hesitate to stab another man in the back like this, so the primal fear (i.e. "Or else) never really goes away.

So when a man does one of these "Or else" threads, I realize it's horribly offensive, but I don't think it's meant that way.


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