# When is asking for change too much?



## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

I wanted to get everyone’s opinion on this. In a marriage, where is the line drawn between trying to fundamentally transform your spouse into a new person vs. simply asking for some improvements or changes that you might want to see? Where is the point where asking for something doesn’t elicit the response “Well, if you really loved me, you wouldn’t ask me to change. You would just accept me for who I am.”
Who here in this forum has either asked for or been asked to make small (or not so small) changes in their lives at their partners’ request? Did you comply with the request or was your request fulfilled? 
Please note that I’m not talking about “Please don’t put too much salt on my eggs” or something as mundane as that. I’m referring to asking for larger changes that might affect perceptions of each other. Examples:

Stop always being late
Stop being such a slob and pick up after yourself
Start to dress a little sexier (not sl***y, just sexy)
Wear some lingerie in the bedroom once in a while
Stop being so lazy and help out around the house


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

I wouldn't mind doing either item if I was ASKED. How you posed it above sounds more like demands/orders. That goes nowhere with me.

PLEASE and THANK YOU go a long way too.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

I think there's a difference between asking someone to change who they are, and asking them to change a behavior. We can all change our behaviors, but changing our essential nature? Not likely, and I'm not about to do it for anyone but me.

So, it's one thing to say, "I'd really like it if you would put the dishes in the dishwasher each morning" and it's quite another to say "stop being so lazy and help out around the house."

Similarly, it's fine to say, "I really appreciate it when you put your clothes in the hamper", but if someone said to me, "stop being such a slob and pick up after yourself", it wouldn't have very nice results at all.

My H really likes everything in its place and a place for everything, and when I do that, I get lots of praise. But when we first moved in and I was learning to do that, he never said, "why are you such a slob/child/messy person?" Now, that's partly his personality, and partly because he knows that that would be the last way to get me to do anything.

Small behavioral changes can be accomplished, but I've found that condemning someone as a [insert noun here] rarely yields positive results.

Is that what you were asking?


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

So we can insert "Honey can you please..." in front of each one of the listed items. It is great if there is compliance with the request, but what if there is never any compliance and the request remains a point of contention and you get "Why are you trying to change me? You must not love me for who I am."


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What's missing is you both being on the same team.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Well, again, Zatol, I don't think you really understand how those requests come off. Honestly, I wouldn't respond well either -- even if you inserted "honey can you please" in front of them.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

You can only change yourself.

You can change how you react to someone...which helps them change how they behave.

You can change what you will and won't accept from someone...which shows them how to change their behavior.

You can change what you say and do to someone ...which may help them change what they say and do to you.

But...you can only control yourself. Asking someone to change won't work. Change yourself, change your marriage/relationship.


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

I think my original post came off sounding a bit too bossy. Let's assume that in each case of the items listed in the original post, the initial request was done early in the relationship and in a very nice, requesting almost begging manner. But over time, no progress had been made on the request other than to be told that "you are just trying to change me".
Over time, maybe the request gets more urgent and comes across as complaining but all you get is avoidance or refusal.


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

lamaga said:


> Well, again, Zatol, I don't think you really understand how those requests come off. Honestly, I wouldn't respond well either -- even if you inserted "honey can you please" in front of them.


So how should you approach your spouse with a request like these?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> Over time, maybe the request gets more urgent and comes across as complaining but all you get is avoidance or refusal.


Then you know that that person married you for convenience, and couldn't care less if you were happy. Except, of course, so that you would quit nagging.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Zatol Ugot? said:


> Over time, maybe the request gets more urgent and comes across as complaining but all you get is avoidance or refusal.


Well, then, that's clearly a communication problem and probably an indicator of some passive aggressive tendencies. I do see why you are frustrated.

But what's with the not dressing sexy? I mean, how hard is that?

The being late? Oh, I don't think you can change that. I have a lifelong friend who has always been late, it makes me crazy, but I cannot change her. I do lie to her about what time things start, and no, I am not a bit sorry about that.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Zatol Ugot? said:


> I think my original post came off sounding a bit too bossy. Let's assume that in each case of the items listed in the original post, the initial request was done early in the relationship and in a very nice, requesting almost begging manner. But over time, no progress had been made on the request other than to be told that "you are just trying to change me".
> Over time, maybe the request gets more urgent and comes across as complaining but all you get is avoidance or refusal.


Some people just resist being told what to do, or are just plain stubborn. The request and the requestee when not respected gets ignored. They are determined to buff the 'system' and follow along some line of behavior they find oppressive.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Zatol Ugot? said:


> So how should you approach your spouse with a request like these?


As I said, try to be on the same team.

And if that doesn't work, work on your boundaries.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Zatol Ugot? said:


> Stop always being late
> 
> When she's late, leave on time. leave her at home, or if she's going to meet you somewhere and isn't there within 5-10 minutes...LEAVE. When she calls/texts where you are, say you were there, but she was late so you left because your time is valuable too. Don't be a d1ck, just be honest. I have done this with friends/family/bfs. it works. I was never rude. I never nagged or asked where they were. I would say, "let's meet at 5" and if I didn't get a call by 5:15/5:20, I would be gone. People learned to be on time. I am always punctual. Momma raised me that way. lol.
> 
> ...


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Also, if those are NEEDS for you, make them needs, not wants.

"Babe, I need to live in a clean home so my head can relax and we can have goo quality time together instead of me always thinking about what I have to do around here. I need help with this. i don't want to feel overwhelmed and start resenting things around here. This is our home, our sanctuary. Let's make it reflect that.

I would LOVE if you'd show off that cute/hot/sexy body more. I love when you occasionally show some cleavage/leg. You're so sexy but you're hiding it! stop hiding it! Give up the goods! 

You already know you turn me on, and I'd like to buy you some lingerie. Maybe we can go shopping for some so you can get the style you want. I miss my sex-kitten and I want her back  If lingerie is too much, let me know what you'd like to wear because I love looking at you and if you could see yourself through my eyes, you'd see how i see you. Sexy as all hell..."


Don't demand anything. You will get resistance. Make it fun and carefree and about what YOU want for y'all's relationship to make it better. Don't nag either. Say this all once and let her mull over it...she may change on her own.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

IMO being late is disrespectful to others and their time. Sure things come up, but if it's a consistent thing, it's just disrespectful. The world doesn't revolve around you. Be considerate of others for a change.

The lingerie? I'd probably not be too thrilled about that one... main reason is while it LOOKS good to a man, that shet is uncomfortable 9 times out of 10. I don't care what it is. If my husband asked me, I'd do it a few times a month, but that's all I could tolerate. It's like my request to him to try not to do me on the pool table again. OUCH. I was a trooper but my back was killing me after.

The cleaning thing? I'd have a chore list. We aren't animale. We can all do our parts to keep a tidy house... we're living together and we make messes. It shouldn't be only the responsibility of one spouse to clean. UNLESS, the other spouse did all the chores outside, car repairs etc.

Dressing sexy? No brainer. I do it to feel good MYSELF. He shouldn't have to ask. A confident, happy women does this anyway.


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

lamaga said:


> But what's with the not dressing sexy? I mean, how hard is that?


But what if she is very conservative in the dress department and she views the request as something to try and fundamentally transform her. Like a lot of men, I am VERY visually stimulated and would love to see my wife in something a little more provacative. I'm trying to determine where my repeated requests go from asking for a change/improvement to wanting a whole new woman.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Well, I just have to disagree with her. I'm pretty conservative as far as clothing outside the house, but inside? Different story.

You aren't trying to change her so much as trying to find a different side of her. Or if not that, why not do it just to make you happy?

I still think there's a lot of resentment and passive aggressiveness going on here, but that's not my business.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Zatol Ugot? said:


> But what if she is very conservative in the dress department and she views the request as something to try and fundamentally transform her. Like a lot of men, I am VERY visually stimulated and would love to see my wife in something a little more provacative. I'm trying to determine where my repeated requests go from asking for a change/improvement to wanting a whole new woman.


She really hasn't a clue what you're about and sounds like she doesn't care either. A woman that doesn't *get* men is really missing the whole point.

What you want isn't complex. It's your nature. If she never tries to understand that, she'll continue to resist your requests.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Demands are usually met with resistance.

Maybe if you're out with her and see someone dressed the way you would like her to dress, then say something like, "You'd look hot in an outfit like that" and let it rest. Start building her up a bit to think she could pull off an outfit like that.

My husband has always dressed nice, but it's jeans and tees and sometimes there is a type of shirt or a cut of jeans I think would look hot on him and I buy him that clothing and just say, I saw this, and think you'd look amazing in them...just try it on, I can always take it back. 2/3 times he likes it and I don't have to take it back.


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

lamaga said:


> Well, I just have to disagree with her. I'm pretty conservative as far as clothing outside the house, but inside? Different story.
> 
> You aren't trying to change her so much as trying to find a different side of her. Or if not that, why not do it just to make you happy?
> 
> I still think there's a lot of resentment and passive aggressiveness going on here, but that's not my business.


Thanks for the feedback but in our case, I think it really has more to do with upbringing than anything else. She has never been the girly girl. If you HAD to stereotype a woman, you would have a shoe-loving, high heel wearing, gotta have my nails done, give me more clothes, I love jewelry type of person. My wife is NONE of these. As a husband, I would love to take her shopping for beautiful sexy clothes but she never wants to. Skirts? Rarely. Cleavage? Nope. High Heels? Nothing over 1" that looks like grandma's. Pay attention to the latest fashions/styles? No. Underwear? Generally bigger than mine and I am 6'3" and a large guy. She is 5'6" and just a bit curvy.
In the bedroom, I have literally gotten on my hands and knees and begged her to please wear certain items. Just for me. I would love something like that maybe once a week or so. I get it once every 6 months. 
I have praised, used conversation to gradually bring up topics ("Oh, honey, did you see that pretty top?) and cajoled but all to no avail. On those occassions where I have gotten frustrated and lost my cool a bit, I have been told that I am trying to change who she is and that I really want someone else. I don't feel that I do. I want my wife and I tell her that all the time. 
Am I being a jerk?


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

You'd like it if she expressed her femininity more often.

What does she do for a living? I'm curious.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If she has a sexual inhibition, you aren't going to get her to be someone she's afraid of. I suggest a sexual therapist.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Zatol Ugot? said:


> Stop always being late
> Stop being such a slob and pick up after yourself
> Start to dress a little sexier (not sl***y, just sexy)
> Wear some lingerie in the bedroom once in a while
> Stop being so lazy and help out around the house


 I didn't realize these were all about your wife.

Why do you do all the housework? Are you a SAHD?


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

:scratchhead:I also wonder if she was like this during your courtship. Buttoned up, late and sloppy.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

that_girl said:


> You can only change yourself.
> 
> You can change how you react to someone...which helps them change how they behave.
> 
> ...


20 likes.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Zatol Ugot? said:


> Thanks for the feedback but in our case, I think it really has more to do with upbringing than anything else. She has never been the girly girl. If you HAD to stereotype a woman, you would have a shoe-loving, high heel wearing, gotta have my nails done, give me more clothes, I love jewelry type of person. My wife is NONE of these. As a husband, I would love to take her shopping for beautiful sexy clothes but she never wants to. Skirts? Rarely. Cleavage? Nope. High Heels? Nothing over 1" that looks like grandma's. Pay attention to the latest fashions/styles? No. Underwear? Generally bigger than mine and I am 6'3" and a large guy. She is 5'6" and just a bit curvy.
> In the bedroom, I have literally gotten on my hands and knees and begged her to please wear certain items. Just for me. I would love something like that maybe once a week or so. I get it once every 6 months.
> I have praised, used conversation to gradually bring up topics ("Oh, honey, did you see that pretty top?) and cajoled but all to no avail. On those occassions where I have gotten frustrated and lost my cool a bit, I have been told that I am trying to change who she is and that I really want someone else. I don't feel that I do. I want my wife and I tell her that all the time.
> Am I being a jerk?


Maybe ... it could be reversed.
Maybe you should change, and learn to like large underwear, a tomboy who wears no jewelry, or high heels.

Might as well. you married one.


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

A Bit Much said:


> You'd like it if she expressed her femininity more often.
> 
> What does she do for a living? I'm curious.


She works in a bank. Very conservative dress...and I understand that but she seems to take it to the max. Other women in her office are able to kick it up a notch, but she doesn't.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Okay, Zatol, but if you are in the habit of ragging on her about things -- which it seems you yourself admit that you do -- maybe she is taking a stand on this just because it's one of the few things she feels she can control?

Back to whoever on the first page said you aren't on the same team. That's the underlying problem.


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

turnera said:


> I didn't realize these were all about your wife.
> 
> Why do you do all the housework? Are you a SAHD?


Sorry if I was misleading. I honestly started the post out trying to be very generic and keep it at a high level. I chose to include a couple of scenarios that did not actually apply to my situation. My wife does not really have a problem with being terribly late and she is definitely not a slob or lazy. My issues are all about the lingerie and dress but I classified them with the other items to see if I could get a generalized answer about crossing the line between requesting change/improvement vs. fundamental transformation. 
I work full time and I am in graduate school working on my second post graduate degree.


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

deejov said:


> Maybe ... it could be reversed.
> Maybe you should change, and learn to like large underwear, a tomboy who wears no jewelry, or high heels.
> 
> Might as well. you married one.


Other than the tomboy part, this is looking more and more like what it will be.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Zatol Ugot? said:


> Sorry if I was misleading. I honestly started the post out trying to be very generic and keep it at a high level. I chose to include a couple of scenarios that did not actually apply to my situation. My wife does not really have a problem with being terribly late and she is definitely not a slob or lazy. My issues are all about the lingerie and dress but I classified them with the other items to see if I could get a generalized answer about crossing the line between requesting change/improvement vs. fundamental transformation.
> I work full time and I am in graduate school working on my second post graduate degree.


:rofl:

So you got caught! Ha! You can't slip nothin' past us!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ok, seriously, your wife seems to have an issue with her sexual identity. What's her background like? Siblings? Father? Mother? Abuse? Traumatic events?


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

lamaga said:


> Okay, Zatol, but if you are in the habit of ragging on her about things -- which it seems you yourself admit that you do -- maybe she is taking a stand on this just because it's one of the few things she feels she can control?
> 
> Back to whoever on the first page said you aren't on the same team. That's the underlying problem.


Possibly....But now how do I resolve? I have worked very hard over the past several years to reel myself in when I feel a comment bubbling to the surface or when I feel like I might say something hurtful. I'm not 100% successful but I try. If I back off and never open my mouth, absolutely nothing will change. I guess I need to make that choice.


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

turnera said:


> :rofl:
> 
> So you got caught! Ha! You can't slip nothin' past us!


Guilty as charged.


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

turnera said:


> Ok, seriously, your wife seems to have an issue with her sexual identity. What's her background like? Siblings? Father? Mother? Abuse? Traumatic events?


No. No trauma or abuse. Loving parents. Both still alive (we are in our mid-40's). We were high school sweethearts and were each others' firsts. Two brothers and a sister. 
Don't get me wrong. When it comes to sex itself, we slowly reached a point where we do some pretty good stuff. She generally has no problem achieving orgasm and enjoys sex itself. We can both have a great time in bed.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Zatol Ugot? said:


> Possibly....But now how do I resolve? I have worked very hard over the past several years to* reel myself in when I feel a comment bubbling to the surface* or when *I feel like I might say something hurtful*. I'm not 100% successful but I try. If I back off and never open my mouth, absolutely nothing will change. I guess I need to make that choice.


 Why?

Why CAN'T you say what you feel? Aren't you one-half of this marriage? Then what YOU feel matters just as much as what she feels.

Speak up, man!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Zatol Ugot? said:


> No. No trauma or abuse. Loving parents. Both still alive (we are in our mid-40's). We were high school sweethearts and were each others' firsts. Two brothers and a sister.
> Don't get me wrong. When it comes to sex itself, we slowly reached a point where we do some pretty good stuff. She generally has no problem achieving orgasm and enjoys sex itself. We can both have a great time in bed.


Ok, then, order this book. It's a set of invitations for you know what. Half for you to give her, half for her to give you. You'll have to start it, maybe run it for awhile. You pick one, give her the invitation, set up the scene, and wait for her to arrive. 

If she refuses to participate, THEN you stand up to her and say "I can't stay married if this is all you can give."
http://www.amazon.com/52-Invitation...6&sr=8-1&keywords=52+invitations+to+great+sex


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

turnera said:


> Ok, then, order this book. It's a set of invitations for you know what. Half for you to give her, half for her to give you. You'll have to start it, maybe run it for awhile. You pick one, give her the invitation, set up the scene, and wait for her to arrive.
> 
> If she refuses to participate, THEN you stand up to her and say "I can't stay married if this is all you can give."
> Amazon.com: 52 Invitations To Grrreat Sex: It All Begins with a Lick (9780974259918): Laura Corn: Books


What book? (Never mind. Didn't see link)

Also, this is definitely not anything I'm willing to leave over. Just very frustrating.


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

turnera said:


> Why?
> 
> Why CAN'T you say what you feel? Aren't you one-half of this marriage? Then what YOU feel matters just as much as what she feels.
> 
> Speak up, man!


Believe me! I have spoken up. Too much sometimes I think. I feel that it turned into nagging.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The benefit of the book is that it kind of puts both of you on the same team. It sets you up so you are both going on this 'journey' (instructions in the invitation) together and exploring new ways to enjoy each other without the stagnant old issues. It makes it fun again. And if she is so uptight that she can't participate, you have bigger issues.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Does she realize how frustrated you are?

I'm not suggesting leaving over this, but I'd bet you dollars to donuts that she has no idea how important this is to you.

Tell her.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Zatol Ugot? said:


> Believe me! I have spoken up. Too much sometimes I think. I feel that it turned into nagging.


 Spoken up...too much...IS nagging. 

What you need are boundaries.

"Wife, I can't stay in a marriage for the next 30 years where my wife doesn't want to enjoy SF with me. I'm not asking for chains and whips, but I need a little bit more than this. I want to enjoy this together; what will it take for you to be willing to be on the same team with me on this? Let me know and I'll make it happen because, bottom line, I know I won't be able to stay in this situation for forever, no matter how much I love you. My #1 love language is SF and you, for whatever reason, aren't or can't address it. So let me know what needs to happen so that you can be on the same page with me, or I'll have to figure something else out. It's THAT important."


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Did you want these things all along? When you were younger or earlier in your marriage or have they just become more important as of late?


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Zatol Ugot? said:


> In the bedroom, I have literally gotten on my hands and knees and begged her to please wear certain items.


Yah, don't do the above ever again. Do NOT beg her for these things - that is not what a strong, confident man who curls her toes and makes her want to wear lingerie for him would do.

Just confidently state what you would like, help her along by procuring some of the items (that_girl had some awesome ideas on how to get her some clothes/lingerie earlier in the thread), gush over how awesome she does look if she wears the items, and if she won't wear them, then don't make it a big deal. Maintain your cheerfulness and simply run the loop again. Yes... run the loop again from the start of this paragraph.

If you are able to consistently give off a positive, confident , but non-pushy vibe, then she is more likely to develop the trust needed to have her be willing to try some of these things.

Best wishes.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I agree. Combine Enchantment's advice with mine.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

It could very well be the stubborn thing like I mentioned earlier. I'm me, live with it... you have all this time.


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

Enchantment said:


> Just confidently state what you would like, help her along by procuring some of the items (that_girl had some awesome ideas on how to get her some clothes/lingerie earlier in the thread), gush over how awesome she does look if she wears the items, and if she won't wear them, then don't make it a big deal. Maintain your cheerfulness and simply run the loop again. Yes... run the loop again from the start of this paragraph.
> 
> Best wishes.


The problem is (at least as I see it) is that this has been going on for years. I have made the confident statements early on and when she does comply I fawn over her like she is the Queen of Sheba. I follow up for days later with conversation like "I really enjoyed what you wore the other night....I really loved seeing you in that ....You are so beautiful when you dress in...." But then it is another 3-6 months before I see anything else. The begging was only in the last couple of years simply because of desperation setting in. Believe me when I say that I have tried to play it off like it really doesn't bother me. But after a couple of months, something will trigger a resentment episode and then I bring it up again. I've gotten much better in the past several years.


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

....and she has drawers full of items that she hasn't worn in years. Some with price tags on them. I purchase 90% of them. I gave up buying more a couple of years ago.


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

lamaga said:


> Does she realize how frustrated you are?
> 
> I'm not suggesting leaving over this, but I'd bet you dollars to donuts that she has no idea how important this is to you.
> 
> Tell her.


She absolutely knows how important this is to me. I can't even begin to tell you the number of conversations and discussions we have had over this, many at 2am because we had been going at it for hours.
I generally leave the conversation feeling that I am shallow and have no right to ask what I ask.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Then you need to man up and explain your boundary. I assume you won't settle for this for the rest of your life? You shouldn't. Make it clear to her.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

I"m kinda surprised.
You married someone who doesn't like lingerie or high heels. You've spent years trying to get her to wear it once a week instead of every 3 months.

This isn't SEX that is only every 3 months. It's wearing naughty clothes. One extreme to the other. Dress like you are comfortable, or uncomfortable.

You are welcome to pick your battles, but dude if it is a dealbreaker... why did you marry her, and why stay married so long? But yeah, if it's that important to you, for your own reasons, you should look for someone that is willing to wear it every week. 
They aren't cheap though.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Zatol Ugot? said:


> She absolutely knows how important this is to me. I can't even begin to tell you the number of conversations and discussions we have had over this, many at 2am because we had been going at it for hours.
> I generally leave the conversation feeling that I am shallow and have no right to ask what I ask.


This can be your hill to die on, or you can choose to be happy with once in a while. She doesn't deny you what you would like, she denies giving into the frequency in which she does it. It's a little power struggle you two are embroiled in.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I will say, though, that if a woman is uncomfortable with this, then she's uncomfortable, and asking her to BE that woman when it makes her feel like a hooker or something is wrong. Such things are often VERY different for women than they are for men, all tied up in our feelings about ourselves and such. 

IMO, you have to get at the root of it all, find out WHY she doesn't do it. Maybe that's an issue for a therapist.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

In a dating relationship no woman wants to feel objectified. In my marriage? I personally don't mind it one bit. I feel safe to who-er it up with my husband. He's my guy for life. My best friend in the world. Why not?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Because you may have issues in your past that you can't get past?

My older brother, after my dad moved out and he took over as my dad, drummed it into my head for years that sex was bad, that if I did it *I* was bad, so that I wouldn't get pregnant as a teenager. Combine that with things that happened, I couldn't dress up like that if my life depended on it. Not my husband's fault, it just is what it is.


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

turnera said:


> I will say, though, that if a woman is uncomfortable with this, then she's uncomfortable, and asking her to BE that woman when it makes her feel like a hooker or something is wrong. Such things are often VERY different for women than they are for men, all tied up in our feelings about ourselves and such.
> 
> IMO, you have to get at the root of it all, find out WHY she doesn't do it. Maybe that's an issue for a therapist.


Turnera,
I think you are probably coming as close to this as anyone. I believe that it is all related to her comfort level. Where I see no problem with it, she apparently finds it exceptionally uncomfortable and awkward. 

Responding to others, this is definitely not a dealbreaker. I have absolutely no intentions of leaving her. Never will. Its just one major point of extreme frustration in an already frustrating world. I think in the end, I will just end up bowing to her comfort level and leaving it alone.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

turnera said:


> Because you may have issues in your past that you can't get past?
> 
> My older brother, after my dad moved out and he took over as my dad, drummed it into my head for years that sex was bad, that if I did it *I* was bad, so that I wouldn't get pregnant as a teenager. Combine that with things that happened, I couldn't dress up like that if my life depended on it. Not my husband's fault, it just is what it is.


Oh I have past issues. Serious ones all surrounding sex and my body image.

I trust my husband. He's given me a space to crawl inside and it's okay to be who I am, so I'm able to open up to him and be free and uninhibited.

I wish more people could work through it the way I have, but it does take a partner that truly understands and accepts you as is.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

A Bit Much said:


> Oh I have past issues. Serious ones all surrounding sex and my body image.
> 
> I trust my husband. He's given me a space to crawl inside and it's okay to be who I am, so I'm able to open up to him and be free and uninhibited.
> 
> I wish more people could work through it the way I have, but it does take a partner that truly understands and accepts you as is.


 Now, see, there's another difference. I DON'T trust my husband. He is NOT my best friend (though I am HIS). Maybe that's an issue that Zatol has? Which is why I suggested therapy.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

And Turnera I'm sorry for what you experienced with your brother. That would mess any girl up.

I think back to some of what happened to me and the aftermath or fallout of it and it's a wonder I'm not dead or riddled with disease or drugged out of my mind.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

lol, same here.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

turnera said:


> Now, see, there's another difference. I DON'T trust my husband. He is NOT my best friend (though I am HIS). Maybe that's an issue that Zatol has? Which is why I suggested therapy.


Yes, therapy is a great idea.

I also think Zatol could try not looking a gift horse in the mouth. Sometimes is better than not at all.


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## Bellavista (May 29, 2012)

I don't like dresses because they make me look shorter & rounder than I am, I don't like heels because I value my feet too much to destroy them for the future (and I walk like a miner in drag in them).
I don't like clevage, hang up from being a young girl who deveolped earlier than the other country kids around me. (We lived in a tiny bush town, nobody seemed to have boobs).
I will dress nicely, but I will not dress in a way that makes me uncomfortable or looks stupid. My husband has never complained, he knows I have boobs, they don't go away because they are hidden under my shirt!
If you try to force your wife to dress in a way that she is not comfortable with, she will resent it & feel uncomfortable. Just accept her the way she is & don't compare her to other women, especially those on TV, they are fictional characters.


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

A Bit Much said:


> Yes, therapy is a great idea.
> 
> I also think Zatol could try not looking a gift horse in the mouth. Sometimes is better than not at all.


We are actually each other's best friends. I truly believe that with all my heart. I do agree, however, that I can sometimes feel only my disappointment and take her feelings for granted. I am working on that.


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

Bellavista said:


> If you try to force your wife to dress in a way that she is not comfortable with, she will resent it & feel uncomfortable. Just accept her the way she is & don't compare her to other women, especially those on TV, they are fictional characters.


Its not the fictional characters that I compare to. I just compare to real life every day women. But, I believe I need to stop doing the comparisons and be thankful for what I have. 

One question though, Bellavista. I understand your discomfort with dresses and heels. But if your husband were to ask you to dress up for him maybe once a month would you consider doing it, just for him?


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## Bellavista (May 29, 2012)

Yes Zatol, I probably would, however, he would probably fall down in laughter at seeing me tromp around in heels. I am getting better with the dressing in something other than trackies & joggers around the house (it is winter here as well!).
I do have a self image issue, but I guess as wives, we have to accept what our husbands are saying & understand that what we see in the mirror may not always be the actual reality of what our husbands see.
Having said that, I should go & change from my jumper, trackies & slippers before hubby comes home again!

Edit: Having thought a bit more on this, I think that my husband just bringing home clothes & saying 'Wear this' would not make me do it. I would think he was trying to make me into an image he had in his head. 
If he said, 'Honey, I know you say you have no idea how to dress nicely so I have found a stylist you might want to see. I contacted them & they have xx or xx available for an appointment, would you like to go & get advice? Afterwards, we can go to the shop & buy you some nice clothes that will make you feel confident.'
Then it becomes about making ME feel good about myself & not about making into a fantasy woman for my husband, although that may be achieved as well. Lots of gratitude would flow then..


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## rj700 (Jun 22, 2012)

Zatol Ugot? said:


> ....and she has drawers full of items that she hasn't worn in years. Some with price tags on them. I purchase 90% of them. I gave up buying more a couple of years ago.


This is half joking, but then again, half not. How would she react if you put them on? Then it could be a choice, either she wears them or you will. Again, I'm not 100% serious, but then I'm not 100% joking either. What did they call it - the shock and awe campaign?

And BTW, my wife has basically 2 pairs of shoes - primary is flip flops, dress up is crocks. T-shirts, jeans, shorts. No makeup. Very rarely wears a dress. But she does occasionally wear some sexy stuff to bed. In fact, that's about her only signal that she's interested. So I do kinda of understand where you are coming from, but it is also not that important to me - at least outside the bedroom.

Just another thought/question - do you want her to dress up so YOU can show her off?


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## TwoDogs (Jul 29, 2011)

Bellavista said:


> If he said, 'Honey, I know you say you have no idea how to dress nicely so I have found a stylist you might want to see. I contacted them & they have xx or xx available for an appointment, would you like to go & get advice? Afterwards, we can go to the shop & buy you some nice clothes that will make you feel confident.'


I was agreeing with you on the uncomfortable and feeling stupid parts until we got to what you wrote above, and I cringed. I dunno, but hearing something like that would turn into (in my head) "I don't like your personal sense of style, we need to fix you.... I'll help make you over into more of what I want in a woman".

Some women just can't master high heels. I know this because I wear heels daily and I constantly hear, "I don't know how you can walk in those! I couldn't!"

I'm also quite confident about my personal style. It may or may not appeal to men, but it's what I like to see when I look in a mirror. It's "me". I'm very tall and very slim, so there are things that work for me that shorter/curvier women can't wear as well, and conversely there are styles that will never suit (or fit!) my body. I tend to a more elegant/classic look overall.... and if a SO wanted me to prance around in a hot pink baby doll outfit garnished with ruffles and bows, I'd cringe. I'd probably acquiesce, just to make him happy, but I'd feel ridiculous and clownish.

Once upon a time I had an ex who would occasionally point out clothing he thought would look good on me -- all of it was more appropriate for a woman 20 years younger than me and incredibly trashy/trampy. I couldn't bring myself to buy any of it.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

turnera said:


> I will say, though, that if a woman is uncomfortable with this, then she's uncomfortable, and asking her to BE that woman when it makes her feel like a hooker or something is wrong. Such things are often VERY different for women than they are for men, all tied up in our feelings about ourselves and such.
> 
> IMO, you have to get at the root of it all, find out WHY she doesn't do it. Maybe that's an issue for a therapist.


Or maybe she just is who she freakin' is.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

that_girl said:


> Or maybe she just is who she freakin' is.


 I meant a marriage therapist so they can find a middle ground they're both ok with.


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