# Limits



## Loveisnotenough (Jan 10, 2014)

I've been lurking CWI for quite some time now and find the disparity between where a BS draws the line very interesting. 

I think most of you will agree that it is very emotionally draining to live in limbo, a place I am trying to break free of. 

One of the most difficult steps is identifying when infidelity becomes a dealbreaker... the lines are so blurry when you still love the person who betrayed you. The dilemma between keeping your self-respect intact or staying to keep your family together is horrible...

For that reason I find myself comparing my situation to BS here and I find the range of what's forgivable very interesting. 

For example, a lot of BS state that they are only willing to R because their WS had an EA, and make sure to add that they'd have filed for divorce if it was a PA.

Then there are those who find out it was an EA/PA, and are willing to R but "only because he came clean about everything! If I find out there is any more trickle truth I am gone!"... We all know even the most remorseful WS never comes clean about everything. There will always be a secret about the affair they'll never share with you, and that information is kept secret precisely because the WS knows it would likely be the last nail in the coffin of your marriage.

Other BS are willing to R in spite of horrible behavior from their WS: very little remorse, multiple ONS, long-term EA/PA, prostitutes and even gay hookups. 

What puzzles me is that each of these categories of BS always seem to have a line they claim their WS better not cross or else R is off the table... but I've seen it happen here too many times to count and the BS is still there working on R, with another imaginary line in the sand. 

I guess I am under the impression that most BS have weak boundaries which allows the WS to walk all over them. All it takes are some empty words and insincere apologies to keep the BS in R. 

I'd like your thoughts. BS and WS welcome.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I agree, in a lot of cases. Many BS's are desperate, for whatever reason, and the WS can tell this and so does nothing to really change, all the while gaslighting, blameshifting, and continuing to cheat.

In my opinion, the ONLY way a true R can occur is if the BS lets the WS go. Gets rid of them. Finds out that they're fine on their own. Only then can the BS make an informed choice to be with the WS because they WANT to and not because they HAVE to.


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## Juicer (May 2, 2012)

Well, you could probably say I have horrible boundaries. 
XW cheated. And still living with her. 

But notice, XW. 
I drew a line in the sand. And she crossed it. Whether or not it was justified is not the point. She crossed it. 
I divorced. 

I think my main problem was, I didn't want to divorce. I loved my XW. I just had an overwhelming rage, and undying love. I couldn't get rid of one or the other while I was living with her. 

After a year of being divorced, trying to be single (and failing horribly I will add) and losing my mom, I decided I wanted her back. 

My anger did finally leave me. 

But I should add: my WXW was on her best behavior after DDay. Remorseful, caring, worried, cooking/caring for me, wanting to do anything and everything she could. She knew that I wasn't going to try and save the marriage, she would have to do all that. So she did. 
If she wasn't, I doubt that we would've ended back up together. 

Take that for what you will.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

My thoughts as a WS... It's easy to talk the talk, but it's tough to walk when it comes down to it. Kids, finances, years of a relationship... It's easier to try to bury the hurt and try to forgive the WS. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

It's one thing to forgive a WS for what they've done. To give them another chance. All BS's have their own threshold in terms of what their deal breaker is. No matter the severity; I don't judge them for what their threshold is - with the exception of trying to R with a serial cheater.

But it's quite another thing to tolerate unremorseful behavior from a spouse after you've given them a second chance. One of the most valuable benefits from TAM, perhaps other than teaching spouses how to "catch" the WS; is to help BS's recognize unremorseful behavior post D-day, what they should expect, and what to do about it if they don't get it. 

Yes, we get a lot of BS's who tend to re-draw that line in the sand. We try our best to help them understand that's a bad strategy.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Forgiveness or not, you never know the line until *after* it has been crossed.

Life is more complicated than just a relationship. Once children are involved it makes it infinitely more so. 

It might include: money, house, social standing, career, convenience, sex, love. Heck, maybe your WS is a good cook and you love food. Maybe you enjoy a hobby that not many other people do and you can't envisage finding somebody else who shares it. Maybe your wife knits nice sweaters. Maybe they remind you of an old flame.

The point is, you just don't know until it's too late. The rest is just talk.


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

I don't have experience in infidelity, but I do have experience in severe, life threatening physical abuse. What I have learned is that a lot of what a BS goes through is similar in terms of not feeling safe, lack of trust, etc. 

I will tell you precisely what my line was. 

My exH strangled me until I passed out, slapped me, kicked me, broke furniture, punched holes in the wall... He eventually was arrested and charged, 5 years probation, and 52 weeks of mandatory anger management counseling. He went over 3 years without touching me, during which time we also had a child. Then one day, he hurt me again when my child was about 3 -- and in the same room. It took me 3 years to find the courage to leave. But that last time... that was it. All the forgiveness from before flooded back and I realized that he would never change. 

So, I drew the line in the sand and I walked out the door.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

OP,

The decision is yours. Everyone has to determine the path that they choose to walk. There are a lot of factors that go into everyone's decision. It is an absolute loss of respect and trust, but could you ever get it back or would you want to. Everyone has to decide their own path. Good luck with yours. Do you want to tell your story now?


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## HarryDoyle (Jan 19, 2013)

Here are most of the factors involved in my decision to R in no particular order:

1) We've been married almost 36 years. That's a lot of investment.
2) I still love her.
3) She came clean, confessed, apologized and was truly remorseful (backed up by a year of actions)
4) She was already out of the "fog", I didn't have to plead or beg her.
5) It was all physical, no I love you' s, romantic chit chat or talk of running away with each other, date nights etc. 
6) She loves me.
7) I hurt her very bad in the past but I changed and begged for forgiveness. And I expected her to accept the fact that I changed (and I did). I'd be a real hypocrite in my own eyes if I didn't at least give her the same chance. 
And I have and she has. And the Karma bus rolls on....


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

The absolute incomparable stupidity involved with infidelity baffles my mind and so do most BS who are in R.

I think the BSs you have described are so screwed up by what has been done to them that they don't even really know what they are saying half the time.

There are however, some BS that are steely eyed power houses that accept no bullish!t and make their WS pay the penalty, be it divorce, exposure, humiliation, etc.


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## thummper (Dec 19, 2013)

HarryDoyle said:


> Here are most of the factors involved in my decision to R in no particular order:
> 
> 1) We've been married almost 36 years. That's a lot of investment.
> 2) I still love her.
> ...


Harry that's a beautiful story. That should give hope to a lot of people who believe that they should just give up.


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## Loveisnotenough (Jan 10, 2014)

You are one of the strong ones Hope.


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## Loveisnotenough (Jan 10, 2014)

PBear said:


> My thoughts as a WS... It's easy to talk the talk, but it's tough to walk when it comes down to it. Kids, finances, years of a relationship... It's easier to try to bury the hurt and try to forgive the WS.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A lot of BS do exactly that... but is it the wise choice? Many argue that R is the hardest road to take after infidelity, but I still think it's the path of least resistance. We are so afraid of change that we would rather stay with a WS who never loved us enough to remain faithful. Isn't it funny that most BS have never and would never cheat on their WS? Why is it that we can only love one person while waywards have the ability to "love" two?


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## Loveisnotenough (Jan 10, 2014)

HarryDoyle said:


> Here are most of the factors involved in my decision to R in no particular order:
> 
> 1) We've been married almost 36 years. That's a lot of investment.
> 2) I still love her.
> ...


I think you made the right choice. R works with your situation.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Loveisnotenough said:


> I've been lurking CWI for quite some time now and find the disparity between where a BS draws the line very interesting.
> 
> I think most of you will agree that it is very emotionally draining to live in limbo, a place I am trying to break free of.
> 
> ...


I think that we are burdened by the rulebook. It says if they cheat, divorce them! No second chances, no forgiveness. In fact not only are people complex, their relationships are complex. Worse, men and women are often different in their emotional makeup.

And very often a man's "manhood" is tied up with his relationship to his wife. One man will divorce his wife for kissing a guy in a bar with no other physical contact while another will find a way to forgive a wife who had a two-year long intense physical affair.

Last, we humans seem to be built for cheating. Why do I say that? Because there is so much of it.

So for me couples have to fix their own boundaries. Yours may not be the same as mine. And the boundaries have to be revised every so often. In addition each marital problem, especially infidelity has to be faced individually. THERE ARE NO RULES. I will not let rule-makers into my bedroom. The rules are those of the married couple. If I choose to reconcile with a wandering wife, that's my choice.

And by the way, my impression is that an examination of this board will show a very large number of reconciliations -- and that's without correcting for the bias of folks who drop off TAM because they can't take the negativity about reconciliation.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

The harsh truth is most betrayed spouses stay out of fear not love.

Fear is the greatest motivator for human behavioral.

We see it here everyday from betrayed spouses who simply want to rugsweep right on dday.

They want thier lives back.

There are some that do it out of love, but the truth is, they are few and far between.

Those that can give tough love and still keep thier self rrespect, deserve more respect than those of us that have the courage and strength to leave, and start all over again.


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## Loveisnotenough (Jan 10, 2014)

illwill said:


> The harsh truth is most betrayed spouses stay out of fear not love.
> 
> Fear is the greatest motivator for human behavioral.
> 
> ...


Very true. Every BS needs to think long and hard about the consequences of R. It's not worth it if it's motivated by fear of change, fear of being alone, fear of starting over. I believe that life throws us these ****ty situations not because we did anything to deserve them in any way, but because without them we would have never learned whatever it is each one of us has to learn. 

Many BS are codependent, and without dday would have never gone out of their comfort zone and on the road to self-improvement.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Line,

Interesting your initials spell _Line._

At 30 years married, my wife knew very well that cheating on me was the end of our marriage. Every time we found out one of our "friends" was cheating, I told her that I would not stay in a marriage with that level of disrespect. She knew it.

Well Aug 5, 2009 rolls around and about 7:30pm I pick up the phone and her my grown daughter yelling at my wife. In 2 seconds I know the truth. I suspected off and on for years, confronted (no proof) and was always reassured it would never happen... the Line. Turns out she had been serially cheating for the last 6+ years of our marriage with at least 3 OM. I knew them all. 2 of the 3 were long term and very physical, the last was caught early but had turned very emotional and physical... "Soul Mates" planning to run off together to Fantasy Island if you will.

Short story... kicked her out immediately, let her back in, years of IC, MC, tears, yelling, walking out, da da da. 

OK, what about my Line? 

I didn't like that one. It's my line, I can draw it any way I like it. So I did. I made a new line. Understand... as other here have pointed out, that line get a little blurry when you have never had to approach it for real. Oh yeah, it's clear, sharp, and edgy when it just talk. But what different with this new Line? Fair question. Try to understand.. my new line is no longer emotional. The slightest transgression, I'm done. In truth, it's the backbone of R.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

RWB, thanks for sharing your perspective on this.
I don't think many know what they will do when they experience trauma. Many say how they will react but when struck a very hard blow, they are stunned and have a hard time orienting.

I have experienced plenty of trauma and I in no way would put up with the truly vile behavior of infidelity. That is just me. I place the highest value on faithfulness in marriage.

I appreciate the perspective of those that decide to R however. I have a close friend I have helped through R with his WW.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> RWB, thanks for sharing your perspective on this.
> I don't think many know what they will do when they experience trauma. Many say how they will react but when struck a very hard blow, they are stunned and have a hard time orienting.
> 
> I have experienced plenty of trauma and I in no way would put up with the truly vile behavior of infidelity. That is just me. I place the highest value on faithfulness in marriage.
> ...


I think the point that BS after BS makes on this forum, is that many of us thought like this. Many of us have seen infidelity wreck one thing or another. For me, even a kiss was enough to end the marriage and that is what I had always maintained with my WS.

Many of us place "the highest value on faithfulness in marriage" and I am guessing that many of us also tire of hearing one poster after another that hasn't ever experienced what we have, telling us how *they* would have/would react in the situations we have been through.

The point is, many of us would have said _precisely the same thing_ and, yet, when push comes to shove, life simply isn't that simple.

I know you, of course, will be different. We all were once.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I actually agree with you.
However, I have experienced more than my fair share of pain and damage from sexual misconduct.

You will just have to take my word for it when I say that when it comes to damage from misbehaving sexually, I only have "scar tissue" where others might still have some soft flesh.

I am unable to accept any more damage in that arena. Everyone has their "line", RWB will probably only put up with so much pain from infidelity before he can't take anymore.

I believe him when he says now "no more" because he has already endured trauma and he knows better how would react if it happens again, GOD I HOPE HE NEVER DOES!

Btw, I just read RWBs thread and I really appreciate how you explained the actions you and your wife were taking to build and repair your marriage. I am going to apply some of it to my own to make it better. Your love for each other is very evident, I am truly saddened that your wife behaved the way she did, but I am impressed with the work you guys are putting into it now.:smthumbup:


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

I can somewhat commiserate with you... My divorce once over will have taken over two effing years. Because he refuses to get private medical and I don't have a divorce decree I've spent over 7k covering his medical insurance alone- it comes directly out of my paycheck because he is on my employer's policy. He has skipped 3 court appointments so that they'd have to be pushed back further. And he was abusive to boot. Eff the system... it sucks arse!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Pepper123 said:


> I can somewhat commiserate with you... My divorce once over will have taken over two effing years. Because he refuses to get private medical and I don't have a divorce decree I've spent over 7k covering his medical insurance alone- it comes directly out of my paycheck because he is on my employer's policy. He has skipped 3 court appointments so that they'd have to be pushed back further. And he was abusive to boot. Eff the system... it sucks arse!


Damn sorry to hear that! I hope you can shake the dust of that loser off you soon and start living. Limbo sux!


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## couple (Nov 6, 2010)

People are generally much more idealistic when they are younger. As they get more experience in life they learn that life is not always as they imagined it. They get more cynical. They learn that compromise is what life is all about. That 'great' company that they worked for didn't turn out so great, etc, etc.

When infidelity hits, it's a big blow but pragmatism often wins out in the end. Do you go back out to the dating scene hoping to find a pure soul that won't cheat? As cynicism sets in, do you really believe that you will find that one person that you 'click' with and who won't cheat on you? Pragmatism kicks in and you realize that you might not have many other options - you want to keep your family together.


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

couple said:


> People are generally much more idealistic when they are younger. As they get more experience in life they learn that life is not always as they imagined it. They get more cynical. They learn that compromise is what life is all about. That 'great' company that they worked for didn't turn out so great, etc, etc..


I think I still have the same ideals as when I was young. The difference is I am a bit more cynical now. I never trusted anyone but my wife when I was young. The company I went to work for really is pretty great. Provided me a good living. I am a person with pretty average expectations. Most (not all) of my expectations have been accomplished. Except for one major item, I have had one heck of a life.



couple said:


> When infidelity hits, it's a big blow but pragmatism often wins out in the end. Do you go back out to the dating scene hoping to find a pure soul that won't cheat? As cynicism sets in, do you really believe that you will find that one person that you 'click' with and who won't cheat on you? Pragmatism kicks in and you realize that you might not have many other options - you want to keep your family together.


I reconciled, I expected a pure soul when I got married. I do not think it is too much to expect someone not to cheat. Why would you ever get married if you did not expect someone to stay true? I do agree in pragmatism, regardless of what you do, you live with what happened. Not sure you improve your odds with another person. You may just be inheriting someone else's problems. I also agree if you can work it out and you have children, it is best if possible to keep the family together.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Chris989 said:


> I think the point that BS after BS makes on this forum, is that many of use thought like this. Many of us have seen infidelity wreck one thing or another. For me, even a kiss was enough to end the marriage and that is what I had always maintained with my WS.
> 
> Many of us place "the highest value on faithfulness in marriage" and I am guessing that many of us also tire of hearing one poster after another that hasn't ever experienced what we have, telling us how *they* would have/would react in the situations we have been through.
> 
> ...


Depends on how well you know yourself. And how honest you can be with yourself.

Hardships force you to discover who you really are.They built my strength so when this happened to me, i did what i said i would always do.


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## 2asdf2 (Jun 5, 2012)

Loveisnotenough said:


> -------------snip-------------------
> 
> *What puzzles me is that each of these categories of BS always seem to have a line they claim their WS better not cross or else R is off the table... but I've seen it happen here too many times to count and the BS is still there working on R, with another imaginary line in the sand. *
> 
> -------------snip-------------------


While there are some BS who break the relationship right away, I think the line people eventually discover and then have firmly -but silently- in their mind is unremorsefulness.

Things drag on after infidelity because unremorsefulness is difficult to assess and doing so takes time, as the BS are sorting through the associated lying.

Most BS I have seen on TAM never imagine that the WS would be unremorseful after being unfaithful, until the evidence finally mounts to uncontrovertible levels.

When the BS ascertain that the WS will never be remorseful, then crossing *that line* brings on the eventual dissolution of the relationship.

I would say that more than half of the people on TAM who walk away from a WS, do so when they become convinced that their WS will never experience remorse.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

Loveisnotenough said:


> I've been lurking CWI for quite some time now and find the disparity between where a BS draws the line very interesting.
> 
> I think most of you will agree that it is very emotionally draining to live in limbo, a place I am trying to break free of.
> 
> ...


People think they know how they will react to a crisis.

Though when faced with one that is when the stuff that they are made of comes out. Hence talk is cheap.

Most BS do not know how to go about fighting an affair and recover a marriage. Almost everything that has to be done is counterintuitive.

So to mock a BS for not divorcing is a disservice.

I will say this no matter how bad the affair was a BS can usually say thank god it good of been worse.

BH: TG the affair was only one time. TG they only had sex 10 times. TG they used protection. TG they I did not get a STD they rode bareback. TG my WW did not get knocked up.

No matter how bad things are they always could of gone worse. Knowing that things could of gone worse helps the BH cope.

Though for some there are limits to how much they can handle.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

Weakness, boundary issues, afraid of finding love again? Maybe every relationship is different even though the big three (kids, money, love) exist in all relationships every single person values them differently.
As a man I will tell you staying with a woman that has cheated on you reeks of weakness, from the outside looking in and according to the old values you are a sniveling coward for not beating the OM to death and sending the adulteress into exile to live out her days in some sort of limbo to never love again and suffer daily for her sins.
As a husband and father I will say the strength needed to stay, the patience required to rebuild and the ability to set your pride aside because it is the best thing for everyone involved (including yourself) is the opposite of weakness, it is honor, strength and other than giving up your life it is the ultimate sacrifice.
Now let her cheat again, to stay a second time and put up with that behavior there is no honor, no strength only desperation.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Loveisnotenough said:


> I guess I am under the impression that most BS have weak boundaries which allows the WS to walk all over them.


Weak boundaries? Like foolishly thinking the WS should have known that f'ing someone else was a no no?


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

2asdf2 said:


> While there are some BS who break the relationship right away, I think the line people eventually discover and then have firmly -but silently- in their mind is unremorsefulness.
> 
> Things drag on after infidelity because unremorsefulness is difficult to assess and doing so takes time, as the BS are sorting through the associated lying.
> 
> ...


This is so true! For me anyway.

I have drawn my final line, it is there and I see it. And it all comes down to remorse and his now completely clear lack of it. It all rests on the outcome of 1 request and whether he reads, absorbs, digests, and acts. All will become clear imminently!


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

You don't cheat on a person you "love". If you cheat and are married, then
you are only married for the convenience of either having financial security, or to have somebody to be a housekeeper and/or take care of what you hope are your children.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

love=pain said:


> Weakness, boundary issues, afraid of finding love again? Maybe every relationship is different even though the big three (kids, money, love) exist in all relationships every single person values them differently.
> As a man I will tell you staying with a woman that has cheated on you reeks of weakness, from the outside looking in and according to the old values you are a sniveling coward for not beating the OM to death and sending the adulteress into exile to live out her days in some sort of limbo to never love again and suffer daily for her sins.
> As a husband and father I will say the strength needed to stay, the patience required to rebuild and the ability to set your pride aside because it is the best thing for everyone involved (including yourself) is the opposite of weakness, it is honor, strength and other than giving up your life it is the ultimate sacrifice.
> Now let her cheat again, to stay a second time and put up with that behavior there is no honor, no strength only desperation.


Its all about self respect. And putting your marriage above that is never good.

We all make sacrifices for our kids. But the number one thing to teach them is self respect. Above all.

That will serve them all through life. It is vital.

If you can do that while taking back a cheater more power to you.

And i dont think all men who reconcile are weak. Many are. Call it something more classy. But its true.

And that is how most cultures see it.


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