# Ladies: Do you have to pester you man for sex?



## Kaboom

I'm serious. 

I've read countless threads now where women relay how they have to practically beg for it, and in one thread, a woman stated that her husband responded that it was just too much work, leaving her baffled and upset.

So I wanted to make a general post and help y'all out. Because I feel the same way as that guy about it being too much work. Here's my story that might help at least some of you understand why (if this is related to your circumstances of course):

When we were young- it was natural.. we would just go at it, random oral or intercourse was on the menu daily. Positions were tried, not just every position, but on every inanimate object that would support or assist us. Wild monkey sex. verbal fantasizing.. Anything goes, and it did.

Fast forward to after marriage. We've been through the occasional dry spells (where she always said no, headache, tired, etc..), and we've been through the baby-making spells ("do me now" every day like clockwork)...

And fast forward to now. One long drawn-out dry spell. Yes, I'm still horny. Yes I still want to have sex. But with her? It's just too much work.

First, we both have to take showers.. and that's okay. but there's at least 45 minutes to prep. Then there's the akward getting together naked on the bed, and me trying to read her. Yes, I have to make a decision based on nothing more than the look on her face, or try to read something in the body language that is (to me) exactly the same no matter what her mood is. And her moods DO vary, and are impossible to guess most of the time- very random. 

One time, she may want gentile love-making. Another time, she may want to be man-handled, another time she might want me to be more vocal about fantasies, and those too will vary wildly, either girl-girl, threesome fantasies, or being a slave and tied up, or other things..

So all the while, I'm caressing her, nibbling the best spots I know, in the best way I know how.. while trying to gauge her desires. I can't just ask- she will get upset that I don't instinctively "know".

So after some kissing and nibbling and chest-play, I go down. I enjoy it a lot, and it's one of the guaranteed methods she will climax, and I know that's important to her- I'm not a wham-bam kind of guy- I'm very attuned in the sack, and never allow myself to finish first -unless she's irritated with me and just wants it to be over, but that usually would just end it outright, and usually be the beginning of a big fight. So anyways, the nibbling can last 10-20 minutes, and the oral will definitely go at least 30 minutes if not 45.

And half of the whole process is not just about providing pleasure, but avoiding upsetting her. At one time a couple of years ago, nearly every session turned into a fight, leaving me with a bit of PTSD regarding sex. I backed off for almost a year before going back in after a string of these. This is when she began to initiate and I always was tired and had a headache...

So, back the current- She wants it only one of three ways (regardless of the fantasy or lack thereof), me on top, be behind, or her on top. She just lays there, making it difficult for me. I've addressed this, but she doesn't get it.. she thinks the person on top should do all the work, to the point that it's ingrained into her DNA. Same when she's on top- I'm not allowed to move.. just lay there and stay still.

I'm sorry but being on top of someone who won't hump back is very uncomfortable physically, and absolutely feels 10x less pleasurable than being on top of someone who does hump back.

And so it takes forever for her to climax in nearly any position anyways, but the bar had been set long ago, I'm in it until she does. Another hour of this..

And then it's finally my turn. I don't get to be creative. There's only one thing to do, pull out and on her stomach. Maybe her boobs if she's feeling squirrly. But that's it. It didn't used to be that way.

But the time involved isn't really the problem. Here's where you get the answers.. I don't mind spending the night having sex, I really don't. But every time? It's exactly the same. I don't ever get the random BJ to completion anymore. I don't get a quickie. I get a stressful and potentially toxic demand to perform, and if I fail at any point, I get anger and resentment as a reward.

So now, it's "work". It's SO much easier just get on my PC and play whack-a-mole, and I don't have to waste the whole night or suffer PTSD for it.

So when she initiates now, I always get squeamish.

My advice to you ladies? Just relax, make him comfortable, and for god's sake, please drop the expectations. It's supposed to be fun. 

I know several woman also have this experience (performance anxiety?) with their men being equally demanding and unrelenting, and believe me, I feel for you! 

I hope this helps at least one person. If so, I've done my good deed.


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## Faithful Wife

Yeah sure, it helps one person. *You.* Because you got to write it all out and vent.

Now if I detail how sex goes in my relationship, will that help YOU? No?

My point is...what you've written is a very specific relationship dynamic between you and your wife. Not that it might not be similar to another couple's situation BUT...for instance...what if what you described is actually LOVELY and enjoyable for another husband whereas it is a chore for you? Your personal details are interesting but not that likely to match someone else's perfectly.

By the way..."drop the expectations?" NEVER!!! Your post is actually a list of unmet expectations of YOURS.


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## ET1SSJonota

You don't think there are more women out there with broad/vague complaints about how they don't get "read" right, but you can't ask what they want without negative repercussions? That doesn't sound like some ultra-specific "dynamic", that sounds like a lot of couples that I have read about, on this site no less.


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## Faithful Wife

Yeah sure...THIS husband is all 100% correct and the wife has no complaints ever...he has always been perfect and she SHOULD be just turned on by him constantly.

Obviously this is totally just the wife's fault. 

(sarcasm)


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## chillymorn

Faithful Wife said:


> Yeah sure, it helps one person. *You.* Because you got to write it all out and vent.
> 
> Now if I detail how sex goes in my relationship, will that help YOU? No?
> 
> My point is...what you've written is a very specific relationship dynamic between you and your wife. Not that it might not be similar to another couple's situation BUT...for instance...what if what you described is actually LOVELY and enjoyable for another husband whereas it is a chore for you? Your personal details are interesting but not that likely to match someone else's perfectly.
> 
> By the way..."drop the expectations?" NEVER!!! Your post is actually a list of unmet expectations of YOURS.


? what is your beef with what he wrote?


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## Faithful Wife

It would be equivalent to me going into the men's lounge and posting "men, I hear that you never get enough sex from your wives...well I'll give you a hint...you need to give us more domestic support, listen to us more, and be more romantic, duh!"


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## committed4ever

> So I wanted to make a general post and help y'all out.


_edited to be nice because Kaboom was just trying to be helpful. _


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## Decorum

Kaboom said:


> I'm serious.
> 
> I've read countless threads now where women relay how they have to practically beg for it, and in one thread, a woman stated that her husband responded that it was just too much work, leaving her baffled and upset.
> 
> So I wanted to make a general post and help y'all out. Because I feel the same way as that guy about it being too much work. Here's my story that might help at least some of you understand why (if this is related to your circumstances of course):
> 
> I hope this helps at least one person. If so, I've done my good deed.



HA HA HA HA HA,
You posted this in the lady's lounge.

It has helped one person, me, I needed a good laugh.

HA HA HA HA HA,

Kaboom I know exactly what you mean.

You are a braver man than I, ha ha ha ha ha.



Faithful Wife said:


> Yeah sure, it helps one person. *You.* Because you got to write it all out and vent.
> 
> Now if I detail how sex goes in my relationship, will that help YOU? No?
> 
> My point is...what you've written is a very specific relationship dynamic between you and your wife. Not that it might not be similar to another couple's situation BUT...for instance...what if what you described is actually LOVELY and enjoyable for another husband whereas it is a chore for you? Your personal details are interesting but not that likely to match someone else's perfectly.
> 
> By the way..."drop the expectations?" NEVER!!! Your post is actually a list of unmet expectations of YOURS.


Oops I gotta leave the LL country, my workers visa has expired.


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## ET1SSJonota

And that would be fine (and probably has been done). I'll also wager that if/when it was done, the responses included "been there, done that, still getting the mini-rations". 
I didn't hear any pinning it all on women. He said it became a dance that was too much work. That it wasn't fun. Too many expectations. These are all good pieces of advice. I don't equate it quite like you do, I would put it equal to a women telling a guy not to expect the "porn-queen" EVERY time they got in the sack (which I have heard TONS on here). I also don't think someone providing said advice (which can easily just be ignored, instead of spat upon) should get such a vehemently negative response.


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## Memento

Lets all be respectful of others opinions without discriminating, point fingers or being disrespectful. If we were all perfect, none of us would be here. Chill!


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## Faithful Wife

ET1SS...Please read my response number 6. Do you really believe if I posted something like that example in the men's lounge...the men wouldn't chase me outta there with pitchforks?


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## greenpearl

If I had to spend almost one hour to get an orgasm, I would be tired too. After sometime, there would be no interest. 

I don't know why some people expect the other one to do all the work and they just lie there and enjoy. How can that happen? 

Men, if you read some romance books or erotica, you will find that all those books have male characters who are experts in sex. They are rich, they are powerful, they know all the technique to give their female lovers multiple orgasms, and the women don't need to do anything, they just need to follow...................And you will notice that the authors are women. So this is women's fantasy!!!

How many experts are there? Or maybe you should try hard to become one!


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## ET1SSJonota

Faithful Wife said:


> ET1SS...Please read my response number 6. Do you really believe if I posted something like that example in the men's lounge...the men wouldn't chase me outta there with pitchforks?


I was addressing you in my last post actually. 

Some might. And how would you feel about that? Think Golden Rule here. Would you WANT to be treated this way? If not, why do you do so?

Others would respect that you had an opinion on it (like me). Still others might have missed that crucial bit of information, or your post actually gave them a Eureka! moment. Don't let a few bad eggs ruin the forum. And don't lower yourself to their standards.


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## ET1SSJonota

greenpearl said:


> If I had to spend almost one hour to get an orgasm, I would be tired too. After sometime, there would be no interest.
> 
> I don't know why some people expect the other one to do all the work and they just lie there and enjoy. How can that happen?
> 
> Men, if you read some romance books or erotica, you will find that all those books have male characters who are experts in sex. They are rich, they are powerful, they know all the technique to give their female lovers multiple orgasms, and the women don't need to do anything, they just need to follow...................And you will notice that the authors are women. So this is women's fantasy!!!
> 
> How many experts are there? Or maybe you should try hard to become one!


Keyword is fantasy. The flipside being porn divas. Doesn't mean every man is dissatisfied unless his wife is a porn queen, just like the books don't mean every women is dissatisfied unless he's Christian Gray. Nice to think about on occasion, or role-play maybe...


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## Faithful Wife

Yes, I knew you were addressing me, that is why I answered you.

Nothing I have said is any more than sharing my own opinion. I just happen to also be uppity in my communication style.


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## ET1SSJonota

As a partly white guy, I don't think I'm allowed to use or recognize the word "uppity"....


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## Faithful Wife

Hey I'm the one who said it...NOW you have permission to call me out as uppity anytime you like.

I don't mind, I am used to it.

Uppity women, unite!


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## committed4ever

ET1SSJonota said:


> As a partly white guy, I don't think I'm allowed to use or recognize the word "uppity"....


Why?


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## chillymorn

Memento said:


> Lets all be respectful of others opinions without discriminating, point fingers or being disrespectful. If we were all perfect, none of us would be here. Chill!


and what exactly was disrespectful?


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## Coffee Amore

Kaboom - No, I don't have to pester my husband for sex. 

The dynamic you described is so specific to you and your wife. While your post comes off as a vent, I hope it helps someone lurking here. However, I wonder if others here spend as much time pre and during the act. You two spend a lot of time on the act. 15-20 minutes of nibbling, 30-45 minutes of oral alone on her then another hour afterwards on PIV... add to that the shower before...you're talking about a lot of time. If I took that long to orgasm, I'd probably be less enthusiastic about sex too. Your wife's reaction of just lying there is odd. Perhaps it's cultural or religious on her part. Maybe she thinks that's how women are supposed to be during the act. It sounds like her favorite position is the corpse position. Have you talked to her about it?


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## ET1SSJonota

committed4ever said:


> Why?


Just poking the racist bear.... ignore that, I have an odd sense of humor.

I think the act delineation was a bit over the top, but the principal of endless expectations EVERY time was quite clear. That I am sure applies to many more people than just him (including some men, BTW).


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## TiggyBlue

To be fair he did say if it relates to your circumstances, I don't think there's any need to jump down his throat.


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## norajane

TiggyBlue said:


> To be fair he did say if it relates to your circumstances, I don't think there's any need to jump down his throat.


:iagree:


His sex life with his wife feels hard and complicated to him, and structured with lots of specific rules and regulations. But sex used to feel natural between them. I'm sure there are plenty of people who can identify with that.


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## SimplyAmorous

> *Kaboom said*: First, we both have to take showers.. and that's okay. but there's at least 45 minutes to prep. *Then there's the awkward getting together naked on the bed, and me trying to read her. Yes, I have to make a decision based on nothing more than the look on her face, or try to read something in the body language that is (to me) exactly the same no matter what her mood is. And her moods DO vary, and are impossible to guess most of the time- very random.*
> 
> One time, she may want gentile love-making. Another time, she may want to be man-handled, another time she might want me to be more vocal about fantasies, and those too will vary wildly, either girl-girl, threesome fantasies, or being a slave and tied up, or other things..
> 
> So all the while, I'm caressing her, nibbling the best spots I know, in the best way I know how.. *while trying to gauge her desires. I can't just ask- she will get upset that I don't instinctively "know".*


 The parts I outlined in BLUE would shut my husband down... I know this.. I need to show some enthusiasm , some spirit of "I want you too baby"... . 

The Op's story / post didn't offend my senses at all.. That is an inordinate amount of time getting ready...then having to "read" her just so... she gets upset if you ask (REALLY [email protected]#$%), just lays there ....then on top of this she may take another 45 minutes to get there...how this could wear a man out. Sounds like walking on sexual eggs shells to a nice degree. 

I have pestered my husband for sex (or felt like I was - he would say not)...but always with a big  on my face and leading the way...enticing /seducing .that it was gonna be worth his while.... he never had to guess what I wanted/ how I wanted it.. and I was ever present in getting us both there...I was into pleasing him AS MUCH if not more so - as this is what turned me on....I needed THAT...or I would be bummed....if I felt the slightest hesitation. We are both real sensitive like that, so we both give it our all.. 

I think these things are very important... showing enthusiasm for each other...that green light flirtatious grin/ show some body language...... We have more of a problem wanting to "slow it down" sometimes...wishing it could go on longer.


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## SepticChange

To answer the question, yes I have. I want it more than he does.


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## Shiksa

Me too septic. Just this morning I asked him what he was doing and he answered "playing with my phone." My answer was "I'm much more fun to play with" End result was the phone saw more action...


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## AnnieAsh

I have pestered my husband for sex. He's pestered me, especially now that he has given up porn (yay for Annie.) I like it. I feel desired when he's gotta have it.


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## bubbly girl

Faithful Wife said:


> It would be equivalent to me going into the men's lounge and posting "men, I hear that you never get enough sex from your wives...well I'll give you a hint...you need to give us more domestic support, listen to us more, and be more romantic, duh!"


What you just wrote IS what many women have posted on these boards. I can't count how many times a man has complained about his wife never/rarely wanting sex and there are always a bunch of women telling him to try helping around the house more, listening to her and be more romantic.

Granted they never seem to help the poor guys situation, but it's always suggested.


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## bubbly girl

Sorry for your situation Kaboom. You're right...sex should be fun and it doesn't sound very fun anymore with your wife. Your wife needs to understand there are no "rules" to sex. If it feels good you do it. If it doesn't feel good you don't. And no one should be expected to be a mind reader. That spells disaster in any part of marriage.


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## Kaboom

Hey , in my defense I was browsing the forums today and it seemed like every other thread I read was about husbands not showing interest, or not eager for sex, or as I said in that one case, the husband who said it was just too much work.

I identified with that, and wanted to explain why a man might say that. I only wish I had the balls to say it to my wife, but the price is pretty high and I'm not really willing to pay it. But anyways, In trying to relate to you ladies the why of it, I had to tell the whole story- it was not my intention when I started this topic, but it wrote itself out that way.

I never intended this to be a negative thread, I honestly just wanted to give food for thought if you find yourselves in that circumstance over time. I do see quite enough of your POV (especially you F.W.) in the mens forum, explaining to us about what we're doing wrong. And that wasn't meant as a jibe, I really am trying to help all of you, as much as I'm trying to counsel myself via these forums. 

Peace.


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## love=pain

Kaboom said:


> Hey , in my defense I was browsing the forums today and it seemed like every other thread I read was about husbands not showing interest, or not eager for sex, or as I said in that one case, the husband who said it was just too much work.
> 
> I identified with that, and wanted to explain why a man might say that. I only wish I had the balls to say it to my wife, but the price is pretty high and I'm not really willing to pay it. But anyways, In trying to relate to you ladies the why of it, I had to tell the whole story- it was not my intention when I started this topic, but it wrote itself out that way.
> 
> I never intended this to be a negative thread, I honestly just wanted to give food for thought if you find yourselves in that circumstance over time. I do see quite enough of your POV (especially you F.W.) in the mens forum, explaining to us about what we're doing wrong. And that wasn't meant as a jibe, I really am trying to help all of you, as much as I'm trying to counsel myself via these forums.
> 
> Peace.


Had to ask What price? You are already unsatisfied in your relationship will you let it keep going? That is how people cheat, unhappy with the situation but won't work to change it then they see the easy way(in your case wild sex with someone else) not saying you will but sooner or later that temptation may come around.

Just a thought and maybe you have done this but how about some playful talk before the shower and other rituals (of course the shower works great do it in there) to better gauge her mood and to also let her know how much you want her and are looking forward to some boom boom time.

I know in my life if some thing was bothering me I wouldn't talk about it, then she wouldn't talk about it and soon you are in a rut with no one knowing what is up with the other one. Maybe she sees sex as a chore as well (I have to this and this for him to get off then we are done) take a walk in the woods or sit her down and just say it just make sure you don't blame or accuse her put most of the fault with you and let her help you work on this problem.
But it is a woman and they can be confusing creatures (ha ha had to put that in after all it is the Ladies forum) good luck.


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## shy_guy

I don't mean any offense to anybody who is in a difficult situation, but when I read a title like this thread title, what goes through my mind first is "If I ever get to the point where my wife has to PESTER me for sex, I hope they can just go ahead and bury me."

It hasn't happened yet. I don't foresee it happening anytime soon. If it ever does, just go ahead and put me out of my misery.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

No. I do not pester or nag for anything.

I'd be really bummed if my husband constantly turned me down. Pestering would most likely make him run the other way. It would for me.


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## TheCuriousWife

I "pester" my husband for sex. But I never do the things your wife does. So it didn't really help. But I always appreciate a mans point of view.


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## SepticChange

I avoid pestering. I make suggestive comments and when we're in bed get touchy feely but almost half the time he's too tired, has a migraine, and his back hurts. He really does have a bad back and terrible migraines due to a head injury so I don't take it personally. I just get sexually frustrated. What discourages me is that we're only 25. Just gonna get worse as we get older. Gotta learn to deal sometimes.


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## always_alone

Kaboom said:


> I'm serious.
> 
> I've read countless threads now where women relay how they have to practically beg for it, and in one thread, a woman stated that her husband responded that it was just too muin ch work, leaving her baffled and upset.
> 
> So I wanted to make a general post and help y'all out. Because I feel the same way as that guy about it being too much work.


Yeah, I agree. All in all too much work. 

He never initiates, and when he does 'permit' sex, he will just lie there waiting for his orgasm. It matters not that I'm up for any position, any place, quickies, you name it. His needs and desires automatically trump mine. I have to look like he wants, act like he wants and devote myself entirely to his pleasure. Otherwise he's not interested. 

And I have to guess at what he wants, as he will never say what he likes, will never admit to fantasies, or even a preference. If he doesn't O fast enough he might fault-find (too fast, too slow, too tight, too loose etc), but will never say anything positive. 

My pleasure is, of course, my problem to work out. Meanwhile, he'll be playing with his phone because he is "tired" and sex is "too much work".


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## TheCuriousWife

SepticChange said:


> I avoid pestering. I make suggestive comments and when we're in bed get touchy feely but almost half the time he's too tired, has a migraine, and his back hurts. He really does have a bad back and terrible migraines due to a head injury so I don't take it personally. I just get sexually frustrated. What discourages me is that we're only 25. Just gonna get worse as we get older. Gotta learn to deal sometimes.


Yep. I do the same things as you, and I get the "too tired" response. We're in our 20's too. I'm still trying to fight the sad reality that it will get worse as we get older.


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## Laila8

No, definitely not. My H is pretty HD.


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## LovesHerMan

Communication is the life blood of a marriage. Your wife sounds like a rather selfish lover, and you have unwittingly encouraged her by not trying different approaches to love-making.

If the shower takes too much time, and you are both relatively clean, try using wet-wipes. You can make it a part of foreplay.

If you are not certain what mood she is in, just ask her what she would like tonight in a playful, teasing manner.

If she is taking a long time to become aroused, make sure she is relaxed with a short massage, and try a toy to stimulate her. 

If she only wants PIV, try flipping her around, try 69, try a standing position.

My point is to be creative and communicate your desires. Your wife may think that you are happy with your sex life, and she may be puzzled about why you feel that it is "work." She can't read your mind, so find ways to let her know what you would like to change.

I do appreciate your intentions in posting your story. I think there is a good lesson here about how hard it is to communicate honestly with your spouse, especially around the sensitive topic of sex.


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## Chelle D

So If I explain to him that... "Tonight... I'm in a feisty mood & want it hard & fast"... or "Hey, lets try that anal/kinky thing again." or ... "I really want some cuddle lovey romantic time with you tonight" That will end all the frustration?

I think not. 

Then he would complain (in his mind, not out loud mind you) that I was being too demanding & specific. 

If HE wasn't in that type of mood for the kinky that night.. he would resent me for bringing it up, feel obligated to do it my way. If I mentioned wanting a romantic, slow, lovey dovey time.. he'd assume I'm complaining that he's not romantic enough & be ticked (with himself) that I had to ask. Then that would ruin any mood & kill any thought that .. maybe, just maybe... we'd actually have sex that night.

The thought of him playing with my breasts for 10-20 mins makes me think he'd rather go to sleep... just seeing if i'd fall asleep & he'd be off the hook. If he tried to go down for 30 mins? Holy crap. If I'm not stimulated by 5 or 10 mins,.. forget it. Face it.. the little nub aint coming out to play that night. (Diabetic complications has taken much of sex pleasure away. It's a hit & miss whether I can get off or not. Why should he waste his energy there if he can enjoy other things?)

Sorry Kaboom... but even though you might have had good intentions in mind some of the details do not seem to have workable solutions. Without some Long, intense, open discussions between you & your wife. She may be embarrassed to say what actually gets her off. Or how the correct position would be. (lots of woman can truly only climax one way.) that doesn't mean we dont enjoy other positions, other sex acts.. but it's embarassing to have to tell hubby.. "um, this aint working for me."


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## Senior Citizen

I don't disagree that sex should be fun........but also the ultimate way to let your lady know you love her. Making love with your wife begins the moment you walk in the door.....not only in the bedroom.


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## Kaboom

Chelle D,
Have you ever watched those romantic based erotic massage videos online? They pretty much go 60-90 minutes on just one facet of the massage, whether it be breasts, vagina, or where ever- and that's her thing. She wants (or needs?) each and every encounter to be perfect, and long. She insists each and every encounter is a several-hour erotic massage, where she lays back and is just pleasured. She does also give, and there's been times where I find it to be fantastic to have her working on my junk for an hour.. but not every single time. Not even half the time.. 

It's not that it takes her that long to get warmed up or to orgasm.. in fact, she usually has several, like 5+.. sometimes even 10+ per session. She's HD- we both are.. but she just likes to take it slow and really do it "all night".. which on the surface does really seem great, but after so many years, a quickie would really be welcome at least once in a while. It doesn't have to always be a complicated ordeal- 

Like dining.. we can't eat spend 4 hours eating 7 course chef prepared meals at every sitting.. once in a while some fast food or TGI fridays would be nice


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## Woodchuck

greenpearl said:


> If I had to spend almost one hour to get an orgasm, I would be tired too. After sometime, there would be no interest.
> 
> I don't know why some people expect the other one to do all the work and they just lie there and enjoy. How can that happen?
> 
> Men, if you read some romance books or erotica, you will find that all those books have male characters who are experts in sex. They are rich, they are powerful, they know all the technique to give their female lovers multiple orgasms, and the women don't need to do anything, they just need to follow...................And you will notice that the authors are women. So this is women's fantasy!!!
> 
> How many experts are there? Or maybe you should try hard to become one!


Interesting....early in our marriage, I wasn't rich, but I fit the powerful image, rode a motorcycle, worked hard manual labor, tough as nails, came home sweaty tired and horny.....

Forceful and demanding in bed, but always gave her huge orgasms...She never turned me down because I never ASKED....

Now 47 years later, we talk about those times, she says she wasn't always in to having sex till I got my hands on her...then she was wet and ready....

There wasn't any romance, but sex multiple times a day with her always having wonderful orgasms....And yes, I taught her about oral very early in our relationship...She quickly learned to love receiving...Giving, only in the past few years....

A lot of women would probably enjoy a sex life like that....I know I did....

cold fact

the woodchuck


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## sexy

Wow! 

That's kinda insulting to your wife. I just never thought of having sex with the person you chose to spend your life with could be a chore! Do I have to PESTER my husband to get sex? Really?:scratchhead: No. And yes, we are older than the newlywed and baby-making age. Sorry but it seems insulting to call it PESTERING. You might look into some marriage counseling if sex with your wife is that traumatic.


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## EleGirl

greenpearl said:


> If I had to spend almost one hour to get an orgasm, I would be tired too. After sometime, there would be no interest.
> 
> I don't know why some people expect the other one to do all the work and they just lie there and enjoy. How can that happen?
> 
> Men, if you read some romance books or erotica, you will find that all those books have male characters who are experts in sex. They are rich, they are powerful, they know all the technique to give their female lovers multiple orgasms, and the women don't need to do anything, they just need to follow...................And you will notice that the authors are women. So this is women's fantasy!!!
> 
> How many experts are there? Or maybe you should try hard to become one!


Those romance novels are read by about 25% of the female population. So they don't have all that much influence on all women.


----------



## EleGirl

Kaboom said:


> Hey , in my defense I was browsing the forums today and it seemed like every other thread I read was about husbands not showing interest, or not eager for sex, or as I said in that one case, the husband who said it was just too much work.
> 
> I identified with that, and wanted to explain why a man might say that. I only wish I had the balls to say it to my wife, but the price is pretty high and I'm not really willing to pay it. But anyways, In trying to relate to you ladies the why of it, I had to tell the whole story- it was not my intention when I started this topic, but it wrote itself out that way.
> 
> I never intended this to be a negative thread, I honestly just wanted to give food for thought if you find yourselves in that circumstance over time. I do see quite enough of your POV (especially you F.W.) in the mens forum, explaining to us about what we're doing wrong. And that wasn't meant as a jibe, I really am trying to help all of you, as much as I'm trying to counsel myself via these forums.
> 
> Peace.


Your OP might apply to some women. It does not in my situation. Not all women play the kinds of games you say/imply that your wife does. 

Having to guess what she wants? Not being able to talk to her/ask her? No variation, no BJ’s, etc? That’s your wife, not all women. Its’ not even all women whose husbands refuse to have sex with them.


----------



## Starstarfish

I got to admit, I got to this point:



> First, we both have to take showers.. and that's okay. but there's at least 45 minutes to prep


And went :scratchhead: 

Is that 45 minutes together or a piece and what are people washing that takes that long?


----------



## EleGirl

Kaboom said:


> Chelle D,
> Have you ever watched those romantic based erotic massage videos online? They pretty much go 60-90 minutes on just one facet of the massage, whether it be breasts, vagina, or where ever- and that's her thing. She wants (or needs?) each and every encounter to be perfect, and long. She insists each and every encounter is a several-hour erotic massage, where she lays back and is just pleasured. She does also give, and there's been times where I find it to be fantastic to have her working on my junk for an hour.. but not every single time. Not even half the time..
> 
> It's not that it takes her that long to get warmed up or to orgasm.. in fact, she usually has several, like 5+.. sometimes even 10+ per session. She's HD- we both are.. but she just likes to take it slow and really do it "all night".. which on the surface does really seem great, but after so many years, *a quickie would really be welcome at least once in a while. It doesn't have to always be a complicated ordeal- *
> 
> Like dining.. we can't eat spend 4 hours eating 7 course chef prepared meals at every sitting.. once in a while some fast food or TGI fridays would be nice


Have you told her that a quickie would be good once in a while?


----------



## Spinner

I think it's incredibly small minded of you to assume that all the women having problems with this are causing it by being as needy as your wife seems to be. Don't take out your frustrations at your own personal problem by pissing off an entire forum of already frustrated women. Talk to your wife. She may get upset, but if you make your point as politely as you can I'm sure she'll realize you aren't just trying to pick at her.


----------



## Chelle D

EleGirl said:


> Have you told her that about a quickie once in a while?


:iagree:
Of course... you'd want to talk about that at the right time. NOT during your hours on hours masseuse time.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Why do so many women take such offense to the OP, even while acknowledging it doesn't apply to them or whoever else? Do you just assume that OP is speaking for everyone?

OP is speaking for the dynamic in his relationship. A dynamic someone somewhere likely has too. Its not your dynamic, good and fine... did he say it was? Why assume he's speaking for all men who don't want their wives? If you're going to comment, why not comment specific to the situation being described rather than some other thing that he's not describing? Knee-jerk reaction to crucify the woman-blaming man?

A woman comes on this forum and says "my turd of a husband won't have sex with me" - Husband blamed. Husband comes here and says "I don't want sex with my wife because she demands everything be perfect" - wife blamed.

Its so funny to see the "that doesn't apply to me!" posts and attacks, because I think they're rooted in your sense that he is invalidating you somehow (especially the sexless women who aren't as he describes his wife). As if to say, "I have a legit complaint, and he says its my fault"... No, he's not; he's describing his situation... which may or may not be informative to someone else in a similar situation. Attacking him for it does exactly what I think you feel he's doing to you ladies: invalidating his feelings on the matter he faces.

"My situation isn't like that... blah blah blah... this is just your wife."

That's fine... then he's not speaking to you. I still don't get the point of stating it doesn't apply to all women. Duh? Did you think OP knew all women? He's simply putting out his situation FOR all women here to read and consider if it applies. Doesn't apply to you? Good for you. Then again, I wonder if a demanding partner ever thinks they're too demanding? lol But I digress.

The thread could just as easily have been phrased: "I'm tired of trying to live up to her expectations of perfect sex, its become too much work, so I don't want to do it anymore. Women out there not getting sex, reflect on whether you've set the bar so high, and made it so involved, that he's tired of always having to reach it. Its too much work for me, maybe its too much work for your husband too."

I've been with women who set the bar very high all the time. Women who expect each sexual encounter to match movie sex. It really does become tedious. OP has a legitimate point, something that a woman who believes everything needs to be flowers and rose petals might want to reflect on if she's finding herself sexless.

A similar perspective you ladies might better relate to is the wife who no longer has sex with her husband because she perceives that he wants her to be a porn star.

So much work and performance expectation. It can feel intimidating. It can feel tedious. It can feel scripted. Good feelings are replaced with bad feelings - so why seek sex? The exact same thing OP is complaining about feeling. Women in sexless relationships should consider if their husbands rejection is related to her setting the bar too high for him... just as men should consider if their wives rejection is related to his setting the bar too high for her. It might not be everyone's case, but its going to be a case that does apply to many people.

But who needs to understand and discuss these dynamics? OP is just another woman-blaming man applying his wife-hate to all women. Burn him!!


----------



## always_alone

Yabbut, thie thing is that men who actually *do* say that it's "too much work" are not giving hour long massages or catering to whims for perfection. They are delivering nothing but excuses. Maybe if she's super lucky she gets a quickie that feels more like him masturbating while she gets no O and no pleasure.

*That's* how the sexless story normally plays out -- for both men and women.

Think about it. When you complain it gets tedious to meet performance expectations, are you actually turning off the sex taps?

Ultimately, the sexless wives OP is addressing are more like him, doing everything in their power to please their SO, and their husbands are more like the sexless wives that offer nothing in return.


----------



## lifeistooshort

First, it is beneath me to beg for anything, so if sex is not freely given I'm not interested. I have no idea how people beg for it without getting sick to their stomach, and how anyone still wants it after that I have no idea. Having said that, I'll now address the OP: KaBoom, it's clear from reading your other threads that you not only don't like your wife, you have a lot of disdain for her. You might have perfectly good reason to feel that way, but why are you remaining in this marriage? I'm sure your wife is unhappy too, and if you're at the point where you prefer porn and sex with her is too much work you're probably radiating that it's a pain in you arse. That would cause even the horniest of women to shut down and not be turned on by you. I'm sure your wife has her own version of the story and the truth is probably somewhere in between yours and hers but since it's clear you can't stand her why continue the misery? Just get out of this marriage, you'll both be happier.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Middle of Everything

No matter how many times I read posts on this board about husbands turning down and not wanting sex with their wives, I still dont get it.

"Playing with me would be more fun that playing with your phone." And the fool keeps messing around on his damn smartphone?:wtf::banghead::2gunsfiring_v1::crazy::slap:

If the wife(or husband) is just too damn demanding and expects the fantasy crap (billionaire mind reading model for her, and virgin but sl()t with him Barbie for him) to be real I guess I can see not being very excited about sex. But otherwise? With my wife being as LD as she is I truly wish I could be as low T as some of these guys apparently are.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> Yabbut, thie thing is that men who actually *do* say that it's "too much work" are not giving hour long massages or catering to whims for perfection. They are delivering nothing but excuses. Maybe if she's super lucky she gets a quickie that feels more like him masturbating while she gets no O and no pleasure.


How do you know this? Now you're speaking for these men? I certainly don't get that impression from OP's post. His wife wants everything "just so", and even if that "so" is not terrible effort... it still turns everything into "work". Don't confuse effort and work. Doing the dishes is pretty low effort, but its still work.

Your own bias is coloring your opinion on the matter imo.



always_alone said:


> *That's* how the sexless story normally plays out -- for both men and women.


"Normally" is irrelevant when discussing a specific kind of case.



always_alone said:


> Think about it. When you complain it gets tedious to meet performance expectations, are you actually turning off the sex taps?


Isn't that what I just said? The partner who is tired of trying to live up to expectations that everything has to be just this certain way and the planets must align, may simply get tired of singing that song and so stops singing. Is that revolutionary? 

Like I said, I've personally been with women who seemed to want elaborate romantic perfection every single time... being so particular about everything that enjoyment is stifled. Sex becomes work instead of pleasure... and that's when I left.

One thing no one will ever call me is a lazy lover, but if a woman is so particular that it turns sex into work instead of fun, her @ss is out the door. At BEST, this is sexual incompatibility that speaks to how crappy a future with them will be. OP is choosing sexlessness over scripted, tedious, work man sex. That will only hold up so long before resentment really starts chewing and the rest of the relationship unravels.



always_alone said:


> Ultimately, the sexless wives OP is addressing are more like him, doing everything in their power to please their SO, and their husbands are more like the sexless wives that offer nothing in return.


I'm not sure what gives you this interpretation. OP is pretty clearly addressing his message to women who are like his wife. HE is the one that shut off the tap so to speak. She wants sex, but she wants everything in such particular fashion that the pleasure of it is completely lost on him such that he doesn't even want to do it anymore. In his own words, its now just "work". He resents it so much he doesn't even want sex at all with her anymore.

This isn't a woman doing everything in her power to please her SO, as the women you claim he's addressing are. This is a woman he has to tippy toe with to avoid upsetting and do everything in just the particular way she wants to such a degree that its become tedious for him. That's pretty close to the definition of the selfish lover.

That's a pretty specific audience, and perhaps a useful thing for a woman who is very particular about every detail of sex to know if she's wondering why her husband isn't interested in sex anymore. Its real, and its something to consider. I've broken up with women who've made sex feel more like work than pleasure.

Life is short, "ain't nobody got time fo' that".


----------



## Created2Write

Faithful Wife said:


> Yeah sure...THIS husband is all 100% correct and the wife has no complaints ever...he has always been perfect and she SHOULD be just turned on by him constantly.
> 
> Obviously this is totally just the wife's fault.
> 
> (sarcasm)


I agree. While I definitely can understand why he feels the way he does(I was getting tired just reading his post), I seriously doubt that the sexual issues are entirely his wife's problem. For instance, the statement he made about asking her what she wants and she gets upset he doesn't just instinctively know...I can say that _when_ you ask can make the difference between a wife actually answering the question, or getting upset. If he's asking in the middle of oral sex or foreplay, I can see why she would be upset. However, if he brings the subject up some time when they aren't having sex or about to, her answer _might_ be different. 

Her expectation that he should "just know" is ridiculous. Every person is different, and it's impossible for any man to "just know" what his woman wants. However, communication is a two way street. She may, very likely, sense that he feels like sex with her is too much work, so why would she give him even more work to do when he asks her what she wants? It must be difficult on her too.


----------



## Created2Write

And about it taking her nearly an hour to orgasm...pressure and stress are often key reasons behind a woman taking a long time to reach orgasm. If she feels already that sex is like a chore, just more work added to his day, _of course_ she's going to feel pressured and stressed, so of course it's going to take her a long time to orgasm. 

It sounds to me like _both_ of them are causing the sexual dilemmas.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> And about it taking her nearly an hour to orgasm...pressure and stress are often key reasons behind a woman taking a long time to reach orgasm. If she feels already that sex is like a chore, just more work added to his day, _of course_ she's going to feel pressured and stressed, so of course it's going to take her a long time to orgasm.
> 
> It sounds to me like _both_ of them are causing the sexual dilemmas.


As he describes it, it became a chore to him as a result of her being so particular about everything. I'm pretty sure a man doing that would turn off women too (hence my example of the wife who thinks her hubby has porn expectations). "Gag on it babe... that's so sexy" ... er no.

Other examples might be excessive cleanliness demands or always the same position, or always in the bedroom at 10 o'clock. Anything that removes enjoyment is going to turn sex into work.


----------



## Created2Write

Yes, I read his OP, thank you. It doesn't mean that he hasn't contributed to the issues.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> Yes, I read his OP, thank you. It doesn't mean that he hasn't contributed to the issues.


Oh? You're welcome. I wasn't sure if you had the order of events mixed up.

Sure he's contributed: He hasn't demanded anything different or left yet.


----------



## Created2Write

I'm quite aware of the order of things, and don't need you to explain them to me.

So you think his wife is _entirely_ to blame for this? That he never made any mistakes in regards to the relationship, sexual or otherwise?


----------



## chillymorn

and the bus goes....round and round.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> I'm quite aware of the order of things, and don't need you to explain them to me.
> 
> So you think his wife is _entirely_ to blame for this? That he never made any mistakes in regards to the relationship, sexual or otherwise?


Unless you think he's lying, yes. Oh I know, that's so not PC to say... I'm supposed to say "oh... we all contribute equally to the ills of a relationship, everyone is at fault, so no one is really at fault... touchy feely yadda yadda... kumbaya." That's not what's been described. A woman who gets upset when asked about whether she likes something?? Gimme a break. At best she's not comfortable with sexual communication and that alone is supremely frustrating to a man. Ideally, he wouldn't have to ask because she'd be giving him audible feedback. Several things in his post contribute to a picture of a particular and selfish lover: a woman who just lies there, expects he do things just so, expects that he divine what she wants, provides no feedback or engagement, suffocates his creativity, and must be carefully attended to so as to avoid "offending".

That's a nice balancing act. Should anyone be surprised he's tired of it and she now has to pester him for sex? He shares fault in that?

His fault lies only in his retreat from it as opposed to confronting it, demanding change, or leaving.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> It would be equivalent to me going into the men's lounge and posting "men, I hear that you never get enough sex from your wives...well I'll give you a hint...you need to give us more domestic support, listen to us more, and be more romantic, duh!"


btw, this happens all the time. Or do you think men coined the ethereal phrase, "you're not meeting her emotional needs"?

Most of us don't even know wtf that means other than "sh*t, I forgot to take out the trash again."


----------



## Wiserforit

Kaboom said:


> First, we both have to take showers.. and that's okay. but there's at least 45 minutes to prep. Then there's the akward getting together naked on the bed, and me trying to read her. Yes, I have to make a decision based on nothing more than the look on her face, or try to read something in the body language that is (to me) exactly the same no matter what her mood is. And her moods DO vary, and are impossible to guess most of the time- very random.
> 
> One time, she may want gentile love-making. Another time, she may want to be man-handled, another time she might want me to be more vocal about fantasies, and those too will vary wildly, either girl-girl, threesome fantasies, or being a slave and tied up, or other things..
> 
> So all the while, I'm caressing her, nibbling the best spots I know, in the best way I know how.. while trying to gauge her desires. I can't just ask- she will get upset that I don't instinctively "know".


It's all about control. And you are being punished. 

Is this the first woman to think this one up?


----------



## Created2Write

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Unless you think he's lying, yes.


It's not that I think he's lying, so much as I think that emotions can often make us feel like situations are entirely the fault of the other person. In my marriage when my husband hasn't been meeting my emotional needs it's very easy to think about how much I do in comparison to how little he does; but then a talk with him reveals that, from his side, things looked very different. I wasn't actually trying as hard as I thought I was.

So, while the OP probably feels like his wife has caused the entire issue, chances are that he added to them. No one is perfect. A harsh word, a poorly timed remark, sarcasm, neglecting her emotional needs...any number of things could attribute to some of the issues he's facing. That's not to say that I think his wife is justified in her expectations and actions; not at all. But I don't think he's entirely innocent, either. 



> Oh I know, that's so not PC to say... I'm supposed to say "oh... we all contribute equally to the ills of a relationship, everyone is at fault, so no one is really at fault... touchy feely yadda yadda... kumbaya."


Just because both are at fault doesn't mean that that equates to no one being at fault. There's still fault, it just means that _both_ need to address their part so they can work together to overcome the issues. There really is no such thing as one person who causes all of the damage in a marriage or even in a given situation. The scale may be weighed more in one direction than the other, but no one is 100% innocent. 



> That's not what's been described. A woman who gets upset when asked about whether she likes something?? Gimme a break. At best she's not comfortable with sexual communication and that alone is supremely frustrating to a man.


Frustrating, yes. But not necessarily malicious. You do a great disservice to be so unfeeling and unsympathetic. There are a great many women who, due to any number of reasons, can be very uncomfortable communicating sexual desires, fantasies, pleasures, etc. And that can be very difficult to overcome. It takes a massive amount of trust to be truly open about one's sexuality.

If she really does expect him "to just know" what she likes, then she is a highly unreasonable woman. I would suspect, in that case, that she's trying to avoid talking about sex, even if they're only discussing her pleasure. She definitely would have a lot of issues that need to be overcome. But, as I said before, _when_ and _how_ he asked her that question could explain, at least, part of her reaction. 



> Ideally, he wouldn't have to ask because she'd be giving him audible feedback.


I agree. 



> Several things in his post contribute to a picture of a particular and selfish lover: a woman who just lies there,


I agree, this could be a sign of a selfish lover. However, it could also be a sign of a woman who just doesn't know how to be good in bed, or is highly uncomfortable being very sexual, or might have physical pain during sex. She does herself a massive disservice by not communicating to her husband, regardless of the reason. He can't "just know" how to please her. 



> expects he do things just so,


This one I'm more inclined to understand. There are things with me that _have_ to be done a specific way or I get urinary tract infections. Nothing involving the anus, when trying to lubricate the area the movements have to be in one specific direction, certain positions have to be done very carefully...as irritating as it is even for me, it's better than not having sex because of an infection. Now, she may not have this issue, but again, there could be reasons other than selfishness. 



> expects that he divine what she wants,


One of the biggest issues she has. 



> provides no feedback or engagement,


The other biggest issue she has. 



> suffocates his creativity, and must be carefully attended to so as to avoid "offending".


Also an issue. I agree. And most of this show selfishness and disinterestedness. However, _some_ of those things could have other explanations. I'm not saying they do, just that they could.



> That's a nice balancing act. Should anyone be surprised he's tired of it and she now has to pester him for sex? He shares fault in that?


In some ways, yes, I think he _can_. I doubt that this is the only area in their marriage that has issues, and those other issues could be part of why she's lost interest in sex and acts the way she does. Communication about sexual things requires trust; if she's lost trust in him, she's probably not going to be very communicative about her desires. So, while he may be jumping through all of her sexual hoops to try and please her, this says nothing as to how he's behaved in the rest of their relationship. 

And maybe she is the only one at fault. I doubt it.



> His fault lies only in his retreat from it as opposed to confronting it, demanding change, or leaving.


I completely and emphatically disagree. For many, many people the state of the relationship outside of the bedroom can, and does, often effect the state of the relationship inside the bedroom. I'm not saying she's right to behave the way she does(I think she's very wrong, actually, on all counts), it could, at least, explain her actions.


----------



## Created2Write

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> btw, this happens all the time. Or do you think men coined the ethereal phrase, "you're not meeting her emotional needs"?
> 
> *Most of us don't even know wtf that means other than "sh*t, I forgot to take out the trash again."*


Which is exactly why her emotional needs aren't being met.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Mostly I would agree with a lot of the things said BUT knowing his wife suffers from a mental illness, trying to meet the emotional needs of someone with a mental illness is no easy feat (if it can be done at all in some cases).


----------



## RandomDude

Faithful Wife said:


> It would be equivalent to me going into the men's lounge and posting "men, I hear that you never get enough sex from your wives...well I'll give you a hint...you need to give us more domestic support, listen to us more, and be more romantic, duh!"


Well if you posted that I would actually agree with you, not get upset with you. I have no idea why you have a beef with OP, I share his views as well.


----------



## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> How do you know this?


Easy. I read OP's other threads where he says quite explicitly that his sex life is pretty good, but he's had dry spells where *she* (not he) has lost interest.

He may resent her for having too many needs, but he is not going sexless because of it.

As for you, I'm not at all surprised that you've dumped many a girl for having needs of her own. After all, you've written a considerable number of posts convincing me that men care about nothing except how she looks and how enthusiastic she appears to be.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> Easy. I read OP's other threads where he says quite explicitly that his sex life is pretty good, but he's had dry spells where *she* (not he) has lost interest.
> 
> He may resent her for having too many needs, but he is not going sexless because of it.
> 
> As for you, I'm not at all surprised that you've dumped many a girl for having needs of her own. After all, you've written a considerable number of posts convincing me that men care about nothing except how she looks and how enthusiastic she appears to be.


Actually you were speaking for more than just the OP:



always_alone said:


> Yabbut, thie thing is that *men who actually *do* say that it's "too much work"* are not giving hour long massages or catering to whims for perfection. They are delivering nothing but excuses. *Maybe if she's super lucky she gets a quickie that feels more like him masturbating while she gets no O and no pleasure. *


So reading this one man's posts gives you this kind of detailed knowledge about *these men*? 

This is absolutely hilarious. Surely you're smart enough to realize that you're doing exactly what you and others here just jumped all over OP's case for doing. You're even quick to jump on my generalizations, which I back up with many examples from real life and this forum... but generalizing about men is fine right? OP's other posts described how his wife is super lucky that she gets a quickie and no pleasure? Your bias leaps you right out the window. 

It doesn't surprise me to see you engaged in such hypocrisy... its all over this forum. Your interpretation of my posts also shows you are willfully ignorant of the points I've made on how sex drive works in men. Of course, in your vast experience as a man, I'm sure you know more than I do about the male sex drive and what turns us off don't you?

As for my dumping women with needs, again you're wrong. Everyone has needs. I dump those who are *excessively* needy and particular. OPs wife fits the bill. 

Someone else can deal with the woman who wants everything *just so* but can't communicate or enjoy variety. I sure as hell don't want her. I've spent enough time desiring to fix "broken" women and women with issues; no thanks. I think I'll choose a healthy one up front this time. btw, I happen to happily give hour long massages from time to time. Done infrequently, they're a turn-on for me too. But if a woman wants said massage every time before having sex, or if she only ever wants it missionary style because doing doggy is an affront to her sensitivities, she can gtfo and I'll have zero regret. I know what I want and won't put up with such a limited and particular woman.


----------



## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Actually you were speaking for more than just the OP:
> 
> So reading this one man's posts gives you this kind of detailed knowledge about *these men*?


Allow me to clarify, since you've clearly misunderstood what I was saying ... 

First off, we are talking about men who need to be pestered for sex, not you or OP. While OP presents as someone who is like this, he 's being a bit disingenuous if you read his other threads. Sure he may be tired of his wife's constant demands and needs, but, again, she does not need to pester him for sex. On the contrary, it is he that has to pester her. 

And "these men" men that I'm referring to are those described by their frustrated wives in many, many threads here on TAM. We mostly don't get to hear from "these men" directly because they rarely post to complain about their wives or to wonder why they are too tired for sex. Indeed, they don't seem to be at all engaged in their marriages, and are certainly not dishing out massages or catering to any of her sexual desires. From what the women say, they are not up for anything, not even a quickie.

As for women putting too many conditions on sex, I've a mixed response. What OP is outlining does seem over the top, but I also wonder if there isn't another problem, or bunch of problems, in there. Usually women will only ask for things if they want or need them to become aroused or to achieve orgasm. It is your prerogative to deem this "too needy" or "unhealthy", but the fact remains if that's what it takes for her to get satisfaction from sex, then that's what it takes, and she has every right to ask for it.

As for my reading of your posts: you have said over and over and over again that you think men only care about looks and sex, and have no use for women beyond that. You've even said explicitly that women are boring and that men, given their druthers, probably wouldn't even want to talk to them at all, except they need to for sex. What's to misunderstand?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> Allow me to clarify, since you've clearly misunderstood what I was saying ...
> 
> First off, we are talking about men who need to be pestered for sex, not you or OP. While OP presents as someone who is like this, he 's being a bit disingenuous if you read his other threads. Sure he may be tired of his wife's constant demands and needs, but, again, she does not need to pester him for sex. On the contrary, it is he that has to pester her.


Acknowledged. The impression here is that his wife pesters him for sex, and he's informing women as to why she would need to pester him rather than he be interested in it. If he has to pester her, then the thread is flat out deceptive and I'm simply arguing the case as described.



always_alone said:


> And "these men" men that I'm referring to are those described by their frustrated wives in many, many threads here on TAM. We mostly don't get to hear from "these men" directly because they rarely post to complain about their wives or to wonder why they are too tired for sex. Indeed, they don't seem to be at all engaged in their marriages, and are certainly not dishing out massages or catering to any of her sexual desires. From what the women say, they are not up for anything, not even a quickie.


I'm perplexed as to why you'd mention "these men" in this thread then. They would seem outside the bounds of what OP is describing, even if he's disingenuous, as you say. OP is describing one phenomenon, and you defensively? countered it with another. Was that your point? Him: "Hey, these women suck!", You: "Oh yeah, these men suck!" If he wasn't describing you, why be defensive?



always_alone said:


> As for women putting too many conditions on sex, I've a mixed response. What OP is outlining does seem over the top, but I also wonder if there isn't another problem, or bunch of problems, in there. Usually women will only ask for things if they want or need them to become aroused or to achieve orgasm. It is your prerogative to deem this "too needy" or "unhealthy", but *the fact remains if that's what it takes for her to get satisfaction from sex, then that's what it takes, and she has every right to ask for it*.


A part of OPs post was specifically aimed at the fact that she doesn't communicate. She expects him to "just know" and gets in a tiff if he doesn't. She has every right to ask for what she needs, she has no right to expect that he know what she needs through divine revelation, nor does OPs account sound like someone with requirements to get off. Even if it were, sometimes one sacrifices one's own immediate gratification for the gratification of one's partner. As he tells it, its her way or no way... in fact stifling his creativity and interest.



always_alone said:


> As for my reading of your posts: you have said over and over and over again that you think men only care about looks and sex, and have no use for women beyond that. You've even said explicitly that women are boring and that men, given their druthers, probably wouldn't even want to talk to them at all, except they need to for sex. What's to misunderstand?


I said that specifically referring to sex drive and attraction in males - visual, possessive and objectifying. Men, generally speaking, find relationships while seeking sex. The vast majority don't care about "the one"... that's a female concept... we care about the "one right now." The rest of male intimate attachment may or may not arrive in time, but that carnal drive is all we're consciously interested in from the get go. You've conveniently left out that I've also said that men come to appreciate the closeness and companionship they can have with a woman that they don't get from male friends - where keeping your guard up to a degree is a factor. Closeness with a woman allows that final guard to come down. That doesn't make her interesting, that is emotional closeness. I've repeatedly defended men's interest in an intelligent woman... but noted that if attractiveness and intellect could be measured weighed by man, attractiveness holds greater weight for most. You don't see men bending over backward like fools for ugly, brilliant women. You do see men doing so for pretty, idiotic women.

I stand by my assertion that if you take sex completely off the table, a single guy has few if any female friends. They are in fact boring from the perspective of most men, merely by the fact that most often male and female interests differ. The few crossovers will be women who act like or are interested in traditionally "male" activities... like football. It is rare that a man is going to go hang out with his girls at the mall and get his nails done, or even join a book club. Even in crossover activities like hiking, you'll find the men more to more inclined to forms that women are less inclined to, such as trail running. I run competitive obstacle course races like Spartan Race and Tough Mudder - the ratio of male to female runners is like 10 to 1.

Those females who run the courses are pretty awesome compadres, but they're fairly rare. The same holds true across the entirety of my hobbies - which are typical male interests. Few women can relate to male interest in cars, motorsport, football, beer, fishing, hunting, women, mixed martial arts... even intellectual pursuits like politics. My observation is that most men are almost too engaged by politics with adamant, often passionate and forceful opinions... while most of the women I know could care less and generally take the stance that politics upsets them or doesn't matter. When men debate, its with gusto! It often comes with a side of insults, jabs and comebacks. There is a testosterone driven passion to it. These conversations are entirely less interesting in the presence of women... even if the quality of the points made are just as good. I know several women who are vocal activists... but on a narrow band of issues. They are very capable, but again, fairly rare when taking the whole of woman-kind into account and even rarer to find the kind of verbal wrestling I commonly find among men.

Men are generally competitive, physical, somewhat crude or blunt and have an interest in things most women roll their eyes at. Men and women differ greatly in interests and company and if you remove romantic possibilities, I'm sorry, but most men would probably find most women boring. Someone else criticized that sentence before so let me restate: a random guy, is going to find the majority of women to be pretty boring (if all attraction and sex were somehow magically removed). That's not an insult to women. Its very simply because typical male and female interests tend to be different. I know I'm speaking to the wall, because you repeatedly dismiss differences in men and women, but don't misrepresent my position. If you really think we're all the same, then you're saying we have the same interests on average and have more in common. If you acknowledge how different our interests are, then by definition, you are saying the opposite sex is less interesting to US (sexuality aside).

I keep on providing a myriad of examples and logical arguments to make my points, and you still boil them down to the willfully ignorant (definition of the word; not intent on hurling insult) and simplistic: "men only care about looks and sex". I've made it clear that it is not the ONLY thing we care about. It is however, the first and ultimate thing we care about in seeking out women. Other things may even supersede attractiveness and sex down the road, but in our pursuit, yes... we are trying to get the hottest we can with all other things coming in significantly behind. We'll make tradeoffs just like women will, but physical beauty weighs a lot heavier on us than it does women. You need only look at the myriad of men who have thrown away lives, family and careers for a beautiful woman, and the rarity of the opposite.

Give me a hot, intelligent, feisty woman who runs obstacle courses, knows what a spanner wrench is when she helps me prep my race bike while debating whether Joe Flacco deserved his superbowl MVP and NFL record contract even though he threw for fewer than 4,000 yards and less than 30 touchdowns, and drinks Dos Equis and I'll think she's the most interesting woman in the world and take her on my next deep sea fishing trip. Needless to say, my fishing trips end up all guys (not because they share all of the above interests, though they do, but because I've never even found a woman who was interested in deep sea fishing - yeah, I'm sure they exist... somewhere).

Minus being hot, I've met plenty of guys that fit this description and not a single woman to date. As I said, its not an insult to women that guys tend to find other guys more interesting if sex were hypothetically removed from the equation. Its a simple matter of common interests.


----------



## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I'm perplexed as to why you'd mention "these men" in this thread then. They would seem outside the bounds of what OP is describing, even if he's disingenuous, as you say. OP is describing one phenomenon, and you defensively? countered it with another. Was that your point? Him: "Hey, these women suck!", You: "Oh yeah, these men suck!" If he wasn't describing you, why be defensive?


My point was not "hey these man suck". My point was that OP is providing his solution to the wrong audience, and so it's unlikely to be of much help. Women who require this level of attention and conditions simply do not have to pester their men for sex. Heck, I bet a lot of them would be happy enough to go without.

Totally agreed on the divine revelation thing. Definitely over the top.

As for the rest, I won't go another round with you. Let me just say that the expectation that your SO has to be exactly like you to be interesting is pretty much exactly what I meant when I suggested you weren't likely to tolerate any women having needs different from your own.

Oh, and that you and I hang out with entirely different men and women with entirely different attitudes, interests, and tastes. Neither your descriptions of men or women match anyone that I know.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> My point was that OP is providing his solution to the wrong audience, and so it's unlikely to be of much help. Women who require this level of attention and conditions simply do not have to pester their men for sex. Heck, I bet a lot of them would be happy enough to go without.


I beg to differ. I've been with two high maintenance and particular females who began to pester me for sex when I lost interest in jumping through their hoops. It didn't last long because I ended those relationships. Being particular and demanding doesn't mean such a woman lacks a sex drive. I'll agree that I think this is a small fraction of women regardless. But this is a public forum, the audience can be anyone... including some random woman for whom the case happens to fit and the advice is useful. Myself, and other men I'm aware of, have lost sexual interest in a woman before as a result of her peculiarities, particular demands, or excessively high expectations. Sex is supposed to be fun. Women like this take the fun out of it, plain and simple. That's as legitimate a complaint as a woman complaining that she's lost interest because her husband expects her to act like a pornstar and someone should be roasted for saying so. The roasting comes off to me as just plain unwarranted defensiveness.



always_alone said:


> Let me just say that the expectation that your SO has to be exactly like you to be interesting is pretty much exactly what I meant when I suggested you weren't likely to tolerate any women having needs different from your own.


Interests are not needs. I need passion. Any SO of mine will have passion for me and for her own interests... just as I have a passion for her and my interests. I certainly don't want a woman who has no independent self. But I'm interested in what she likes that I don't only because I'm interested in and care about HER as a SO - a MATE. In the same manner, I don't really care if she doesn't like sports. But ultimately, whatever the interests, there is a clear sense of passion for life that some people have and others don't which I absolutely require. Excitement; Energy; Risk; Challenge; sheer enthusiasm.

As for a platonic relationship with a woman, of course interests better align. That's my whole point! They rarely do... and certainly nowhere close to the overlap in interests from guy to guy. Thus a guy will generally prefer male company. Not because they are male, but because they have more common interests. They are by definition more *interesting*.



always_alone said:


> Oh, and that you and I hang out with entirely different men and women with entirely different attitudes, interests, and tastes. Neither your descriptions of men or women match anyone that I know.


So you hang out with people who don't share any interests with you?

My descriptions were intentionally specific to interests. Anywhere along the spectrum of interests, a man will usually have more in common with other men than he will usually have with women - whether you consider it right or wrong, or a by product of culture or biology, denying it is sheer delusion. The phenomenon is everywhere you look.

Human beings naturally enjoy like company. This alone explains a vast array of human behavior.


----------



## Starstarfish

> I stand by my assertion that if you take sex completely off the table, a single guy has few if any female friends.


Uh - I had plenty of single guy friends in college - I never had sex with any of them.



> Few women can relate to male interest in cars, motorsport, football, beer, fishing, hunting, women, mixed martial arts... even intellectual pursuits like politics.


You realize of course, there are men who aren't interested in any of those things either. And it's men who aren't interested in the activities you list who are more likely to find camaraderie with women who have the same interests with you know that secret subset of society ... nerds. 

I never went mall shopping or got my nails done with single male friends (well, not heterosexual ones  ) but I did - play Dungeons and Dragons, watch Doctor Who, go watch Harry Potter movies, and other geeky things. Also - I'm a female gamer, so - I guess that already gives me a joint into "male pursuits."

You do realize that not all men are muscle car driving, beer swilling, hunters like the Dos Equis man -right?



> My observation is that most men are almost too engaged by politics with adamant, often passionate and forceful opinions... while most of the women I know could care less and generally take the stance that politics upsets them or doesn't matter.


If you mean name calling like "republi-can't" and "libtard" then yeah, I feel that's unnecessary. But, mostly because that isn't really a "political debate" that's an insult roast. Which is fine, but that's not really actually having a politic discourse. 

If none of the women -you know- could care less about politics because "it upsets them" - that says something about the kind of women you hang around with, not all women in general. To be honest, any person male or female who says "politics upsets me" sounds kind of flaky to me.


----------



## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> So you hang out with people who don't share any interests with you?


No. What I said was that *you* and *I* hang out in very different circles. In my world, men actually like women, enjoy their company AND share interests. Some even say they prefer the company of women because they are sick and tired of the posturing, sexist attitudes of many men.

In my world, women do not talk about nails or hair or shopping or kids any more than the men do. They talk about world affairs and current events, and a whole host of other things.

Women and men don't isolate themselves into separate groups and only cross paths for mating. They will hang out together and watch football, or play soccer, or go fishing (I've been many times, both deep sea and fresh water), or cook up a banquet feast, or play games, or just hang around and have a few drinks and chat.

So what you're really saying is that *you*, and perhaps your mates, prefer the company of men, and of course that's your prerogative.


----------



## always_alone

Starstarfish said:


> Uh - I had plenty of single guy friends in college - I never had sex with any of them.


Ditto. I've had many completely platonic friendships with men. 

And one of my oldest and best friends is a man. We've never had sex, even though we used to be roommates and have spent quite a lot of time together over the years.


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## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> No. What I said was that *you* and *I* hang out in very different circles. In my world, men actually like women, enjoy their company AND share interests. Some even say they prefer the company of women because they are sick and tired of the posturing, sexist attitudes of many men.
> 
> In my world, women do not talk about nails or hair or shopping or kids any more than the men do. They talk about world affairs and current events, and a whole host of other things.
> 
> Women and men don't isolate themselves into separate groups and only cross paths for mating. They will hang out together and watch football, or play soccer, or go fishing (I've been many times, both deep sea and fresh water), or cook up a banquet feast, or play games, or just hang around and have a few drinks and chat.
> 
> So what you're really saying is that *you*, and perhaps your mates, prefer the company of men, and of course that's your prerogative.


No actually, I'm not referring specifically to my preference for the company of men. This is an observation from everywhere I've ever been. EVERYWHERE.

Chess club? When I was in it, it was all males. Gymnastics? Dominated by females. Pretty much any sport is divided by gender and as such a closer camaraderie is developed with one gender than another.

I've met scarce few women who enjoy turning wrenches in the garage. I see mostly male groups and female groups at the club. The mixed gender groups you see are damn near always COUPLED. When there is a true non-sexualized mixed gender group, it usually consists of a few men and one or two women. This is as predictable as the sun rising in the east. I could go out tonight and document it confident in the results.

I happen to love discussing current events, politics, economics and religion. The most common statement about them from the vast majority of women I've encountered from Mississippi through Massachusetts was they don't care or hate arguing.

I go fishing, I see almost no women. I have friends who hunt - there are almost no women.

I go to the gym nearly every day, the ratio of men to women is about 5-1. Everywhere I've ever lived. Meanwhile, women have several gym chains dedicated to women.

Please tell me the activities where the genders are equally distributed when single, because those you list simply ARE NOT.


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## Starstarfish

I listed some.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Starstarfish said:


> Uh - I had plenty of single guy friends in college - I never had sex with any of them.


Yep, and I've had many female friends. If they were good looking, I wanted to have sex with them. Any man who tells you different is lying... I swear. That's just how it is. If they weren't good looking, they had to be pretty damn interesting and fun. There certainly were a few. Compare that to my masses of male friends that I consider interesting and fun and you have my point. I've never seen a guy who wasn't gay and whose friends were majority female. On the flip side, I've seen plenty of females with more guy friends than female friends - usually on the basis of her interest in some male dominated activity. And they all tell me how much they hate hanging out with girls for various reasons. Surely you notice this dichotomy too? Why do you think this is? I've given my explanation.



Starstarfish said:


> You realize of course, there are men who aren't interested in any of those things either. And it's men who aren't interested in the activities you list who are more likely to find camaraderie with women who have the same interests with you know that secret subset of society ... nerds.
> 
> I never went mall shopping or got my nails done with single male friends (well, not heterosexual ones  ) but I did - play Dungeons and Dragons, watch Doctor Who, go watch Harry Potter movies, and other geeky things. Also - I'm a female gamer, so - I guess that already gives me a joint into "male pursuits."


Don't let my physical hobbies fool you, I'm a total geek; hell, my profession is programming. I know all about that world. Magic the gathering? Overwhelmingly male. Every pen and paper RPG ever to exist? Dominated by males. Some of the coolest women I've met that I wasn't attracted to came from the geeky world. Online video games are overwhelmingly male, with the possible exception of certain MMOs like WoW (while it was easily majority male, I'm still amazed how many females played Wow). But I'm not sure I'd qualify playing a video game online with someone 1000 miles away a real friendship... or how much mileage you'll get out of having shared Wow experience. I've been out of all of this stuff for a long time, but a run through my local comic/games book store seems to indicate the nerdy arts participants are still almost all male.

Realize that I'm not saying women whose interests more closely align with the average male don't exist, I'm only saying that its uncommon. The average female doesn't get caught up in comic book character like the average guy might.

I've been to several conventions for this stuff: DragonCon, ComicCon... even Star Trek, there are women, but few of them, and most of those are attached.

You know where these girls are today? Cosplay. One of the few areas where male and female seems to mesh up. A new form of playing "dress up", but cool enough for the more comical guys because they can show up and be a ninja.



Starstarfish said:


> You do realize that not all men are muscle car driving, beer swilling, hunters like the Dos Equis man -right?


I do. The picture with the most contrast gets the point across most dramatically. Ultimately, male and female interest do tend to be different. Perhaps you and always are counting your acquaintances as your friends? I'm not talking about friendly people you just talk to because they came with someone you're actually friends with. I'm talking friends. People you regularly seek out and share many common activities, they know the details of your life and you know theirs. Not just a nice person you know who engages you in a political discussion and you subsequently don't see for weeks or months.

The people regularly sought for camaraderie, one's actual friends, are generally men if you're man and women if you're a woman. That's just how it is, mostly because our interests tend to line up differently.



Starstarfish said:


> If you mean name calling like "republi-can't" and "libtard" then yeah, I feel that's unnecessary. But, mostly because that isn't really a "political debate" that's an insult roast. Which is fine, but that's not really actually having a politic discourse.


No, I hate that junk too. Its just ignorant. Sometimes you might do it just to poke a friend but no that's not the objection to politics I hear from females regularly. Its that these discussions often get very heated... especially between men. I've had friendships that were strained by a particularly heated argument. I've watched others in discussions I wasn't even really participating in get outright pissed. There are a vast number of people you can't disagree with without them taking it personally. It happens on forums, it happens in real life. You need only go to any given politics forum to see how much more popular this kind of debate is with men than it is women - do we have a politics section here? I'd wager the most active participants there are men unless the issue is specifically gender related (ie abortion).

Some of my best female friends have come via volunteer work on campaigns. Interestingly, my personal experience is that while men are more likely to engage in ugly political discussions, women are more likely to actually volunteer. Politically active, willing to work, but don't want to argue about it. I hear "to each his/her own" way more often from females than males. lol

Guys seem to have a greater tendency to make it there mission to convince you. Its a product of our more rational nature (ie this logical construct works for me, why doesn't it work for you... you're not really breaking my construct, so it must be that you just don't understand something). Several women I know have complained about how aggressive these discussions are/can be... even when they're totally civil.



Starstarfish said:


> If none of the women -you know- could care less about politics because "it upsets them" - that says something about the kind of women you hang around with, not all women in general. To be honest, any person male or female who says "politics upsets me" sounds kind of flaky to me.


I think its pretty lame, but its pretty common. I could throw a rock and have a 50/50 chance of hitting someone who doesn't care about politics or thinks it is all a waste of time, or everyone is corrupt etc. Its my experience that this is more common among women.

One thing I really appreciate about women vs men in these discussions however, is that for the most part, when women are truly clueless or unsure on an issue, they mostly keep quiet or just interject here or there. Men on the other hand always seem sure and confident in what they think they know (*cough* Paulites *cough* *cough*). haha


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Starstarfish said:


> I listed some.


Yeah, sorry, I was intending to reply to you but something came up before I could finish. 

I know exactly what type of girl you're referring to, but wouldn't you agree that those interests are more common to males than females? D&D girls were certainly an exception in all the RPG circles I knew.


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## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> No actually, I'm not referring specifically to my preference for the company of men. This is an observation from everywhere I've ever been. EVERYWHERE.


Well, I'm more of a loner than a club-joiner, so I'm not sure I can help you there. I mean, I really enjoy a good game of chess, but you would still never see me at a chess club. 

That said, here are some places I've seen a good balance of men and women:

Swimming pool & beach, sports bar, soccer field, cycling tour, expat and traveller haunts, sailing/boating, gaming nights, snorkeling & scuba diving, camping & hiking, music festivals & concerts, wine tasting events, art gallery openings.

That's off the top of my head. I'm sure there's more. And honestly, this idea that women don't like to argue about politics, religion, and world affairs really does mean that you are only hanging out with a small, not very representative, group of women.


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## Faithful Wife

That is DVLS assumption. Not sure if it is anyone else in this century's assumption.


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## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Yep, and I've had many female friends. If they were good looking, I wanted to have sex with them.


It's not really relevant whether or not you wanted to have sex with your female friends. More important is whether or not you stopped talking to them if they chose not to have sex with you. If so, then clearly you're not very interested in friendships with females.



DvlsAdvc8 said:


> If they weren't good looking, they had to be pretty damn interesting and fun.


Hmm. I guess I must be pretty damn interesting and fun then, as I've known plenty of men who have sought my company, but not for their sex agenda. 



DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I've never seen a guy who wasn't gay and whose friends were majority female.


My SO is not gay and has majority female friends. I've met a few like him over the years. Some men prefer the company of woman because we can be pretty damn fun and interesting.


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## always_alone

FrenchFry said:


> That's a thing?
> 
> LOL. Skipped the convo, but that's hilarious if that is a real assumption.


I know. Absurd! How many women do you know that *don't* like to argue about politics and world affairs?

Like, none?


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## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> Well, I'm more of a loner than a club-joiner, so I'm not sure I can help you there. I mean, I really enjoy a good game of chess, but you would still never see me at a chess club.
> 
> That said, here are some places I've seen a good balance of men and women:
> 
> Swimming pool & beach, sports bar, soccer field, cycling tour, expat and traveller haunts, sailing/boating, gaming nights, snorkeling & scuba diving, camping & hiking, music festivals & concerts, wine tasting events, art gallery openings.
> 
> That's off the top of my head. I'm sure there's more. And honestly, this idea that women don't like to argue about politics, religion, and world affairs really does mean that you are only hanging out with a small, not very representative, group of women.


I'm *extremely* social Always. I socialize with a very large and diverse group of people, period. But the inside track from the male perspective is really that if we're spending a lot of time with you, we're probably sexually interested. I'm telling you, all across the spectrum, guys prefer and relate to guy friends better. That's why guys almost always have MANY guy friends (and closer) and comparatively few female friends (and less close).

Do you know any heterosexual men whose friends are majority women? Be honest. Any at all? If its all the same, why not?

For us, there is always a sexual context. So the only actual real friendship potential among women are with women we don't find attractive, who share our interests in such degree that she's effectively "one of the guys". <-- note this term even exists!

Swimming pool & beach - haha I just got back from the beach on vacation. *Zero* non-coupled groups of mixed gender. Many groups of young women tanning together with occasional dips in the water. All of the males were predominantly in the water swimming in groups of 2-5 males. One playing football in the surf. I was on the swim team one year high school - the males and females didn't really socialize much.

sports bar - seriously? I practically live in sports bars because I can't watch my football team because I'm out of market... and I've never seen one that wasn't overwhelmingly male.

soccer field - where are you that you have mixed gender soccer? I play softball every year in a co-ed league. We're always trying to scrounge up additional females to play just to make the minimum number of females rules requirements.

cycling tour - can't speak for road cycling, but I can speak for mountain biking. Few women.

expat and traveller haunts - like?

sailing/boating - I don't find this one to be true either. I own a boat. I never see as many women on the lake as I do men.

gaming nights - my co-workers get together for poker once a month. Only 1 female comes, from a workplace that is 60/40 male.

snorkeling & scuba diving - also not true... I've recently started scuba. My intro class was 5-1 men. My certification course was all men... and I've yet to see a single woman on any of my quarry dives. I've seen 1 woman to date... who was the wife of another diver.

camping & hiking - I'll give you this one... but notice how its usually couples?

music festivals & concerts - totally disagree. I see groups of men and groups of women, and then couples. Pretty much the same thing I see at the club. The single girls come with other single girls. The single guys come with other single guys. Few exceptions, and those that are, usually fit the "token female" in a male group archetype.

wine tasting events - There are singles at these events? My ex and I used to go regularly when we lived in Northern Virginia, it was all couples.

art gallery openings - I haven't been to one of these in many years, so I'm not positive, but I'd think this is a couples activity. I don't see many single men going to these to just hang out with single women with totally platonic intentions. As in something they would do with the guys. My mind has difficulty conceiving of a group of single heterosexual males going to the art gallery opening together. Introduce some single females and of course they'll go. But that kinda makes my point does it?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> That is DVLS assumption. Not sure if it is anyone else in this century's assumption.


Its not an assumption. Its experience. As you know, I live for debate. I'm always in debates. I seek and create debates. My friggin name is Devil's Advocate.

I want to know where all these women who love heated debate are hiding. Anyone spent any time on the political forums of various news papers? Overwhelmingly male.


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## TiggyBlue

I'm used to seeing mixed group of friends, maybe it's cultural.


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## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> It's not really relevant whether or not you wanted to have sex with your female friends. More important is whether or not you stopped talking to them if they chose not to have sex with you. If so, then clearly you're not very interested in friendships with females.


Funny thing about choosing not to have sex today... there's always tomorrow. I'm interested in friendship with anyone interesting. The fact of the matter is that my interests, and the interests of most females do not align, and so I have many more male friends than female friends. The same is true for nearly every man I've ever known.



always_alone said:


> Hmm. I guess I must be pretty damn interesting and fun then, as I've known plenty of men who have sought my company, but not for their sex agenda.


If you say so. I do give you credit for vigorous debate. Much like the average guy I know in that respect.



always_alone said:


> My SO is not gay and has majority female friends. I've met a few like him over the years. Some men prefer the company of woman because we can be pretty damn fun and interesting.


I'd love to meet him. He is the only example I've ever even heard of. Now do you think he's an accurate representative of men in general?


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## Starstarfish

> If they weren't good looking, they had to be pretty damn interesting and fun.


I had several of my male friends tell me straight up they weren't interested and didn't find me in any way attractive. One time, during a time I was single and was bemoaning the fact, one of them laid in on pretty heavy and said straight up, "Maybe because you are fat." (In friendly banter style, I reminded him I was fat but his current GF was ugly, and gave him the finger.) Granted, I was 40 lbs heavier than I am now, so ...

But yes, I've been told I'm rather amusing, and several people have said I should try stand-up, so - apparently, my entertainment factor outweighed my total lack of sex appeal. 



> And they all tell me how much they hate hanging out with girls for various reasons. Surely you notice this dichotomy too? Why do you think this is? I've given my explanation.


I've always been a woman who has had a rather small and selective group of close female friends. From middle school until well through college more of my friends were male than female. 
Perhaps because I have unusual interests, but also - I like people who are more "real." I hate superficial, catty crap. I hate having to pretend to be someone else to be someone's friend. I don't like people that are easily offended and who don't have a sense of humor. So - it may be as much a personality thing as an interest and hobby thing.




> But I'm not sure I'd qualify playing a video game online with someone 1000 miles away a real friendship... or how much mileage you'll get out of having shared Wow experience.


I may have my own take on this. I met my husband through an online RPG. (Yes, go ahead and :rofl While we were long-distance dating, late night Molten Core runs were our simulated dates. (A troll Shaman and an orc Hunter make such a cute couple.) And rather than in person gifts, I was amused and flattered how he'd farm gold to buy my avatar a new pair of purple pants to match her outfit. So - apparently, for us at least, we got a lot of mileage out of it. We've now been married five years. And while we rarely get to play MMORPGs together these days - we still engage in similiar types of geeky things. 

Two weekends ago we went to a Civil War re-enactment. He got to sleep outside in a tent, drink beer near the fire and talk about munitions, and we got to go a costumed ball. So - everyone got what they wanted, he felt manly, I felt feminine, our three year old had a good weekend with Grandma. Win for all. 

We then, have shared interests, though what those interests are have changed somewhat over time. I cannot imagine, for myself, being married with such a gap in our interests and hobbies, though I understand for some that's true. 



> People you regularly seek out and share many common activities, they know the details of your life and you know theirs.


I tend to be rather close to my chest about a lot of details about my life, there's been epic family drama and domestic abuse, so - I've probably only ever hand a handful of friends whom I was close enough to who knew those details about me. Though I did seek out their company and share activities with them. 



> The people regularly sought for camaraderie, one's actual friends, are generally men if you're man and women if you're a woman. That's just how it is, mostly because our interests tend to line up differently.


Again, as noted above - my female friends were likely to be the ones who knew me most intimately (I wasn't going to admit to a male friend how an ex was sexually abusive) but - I had more male "comrades" with whom I spent time, shared interests, and sought for camaraderie. So - the levels of the friendships were different, I suppose, yes. 

My best friend is a lesbian (she came out after we were friends) so ... apparently, even there my female friendships as she's sort of butch, so she isn't the shoe shopping, manicure, celebrity gossiping type either.


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## Starstarfish

And the reason I'm personally not more active in the Politics section of TAM is for the aforementioned reason that conversations seem to quickly turn to name calling (calling people "ignorant" if they disagree) and making broad sweeping assumptions about people belonging to opposing political parties, regardless of what they actually say. 

I have an MA in History, I've been in lively political debates about past and current issues, and I like them. But - I have little to no interest in debates that are obviously a waste of time. When rather than discuss the issues its - a contest about the funniest way to make fun of Obama's name, or come up with new ways to assume everyone in the opposing party is X, Y, Z. 

If I'm going to have a debate, I need to at least feel like the other people have some genuine interest in actually discussing things. I think that may be where the male/female thing comes in to play as noted, Devil - when people are so convinced in their own correctness they are incapable of actually listening to any other opinions. 

And as for the steretypical male friendship factor - I can't really base an average experience on my SO other - he really doesn't have any friends. He had a best friend when we were first married, and they spent time together, but that got increasingly weird and uncomfortable over time as the wife of the best friend was still herself best friends with my husband's ex-wife. And she kept you know "letting me know" about how the ex felt about this and that. 

So that felt apart, and nothing else really stepped up to replace it.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Starstarfish said:


> I had several of my male friends tell me straight up they weren't interested and didn't find me in any way attractive. One time, during a time I was single and was bemoaning the fact, one of them laid in on pretty heavy and said straight up, "Maybe because you are fat." (In friendly banter style, I reminded him I was fat but his current GF was ugly, and gave him the finger.) Granted, I was 40 lbs heavier than I am now, so ...
> 
> But yes, I've been told I'm rather amusing, and several people have said I should try stand-up, so - apparently, my entertainment factor outweighed my total lack of sex appeal.


That pretty much describes my closest female friend in high school. Overweight and not on my sexual radar, great sense of humor and willingness to dish-out and receive like a guy... with common interests in really geeky stuff. But she didn't care for LAN parties playing Doom, which eventually replaced our RPG nights. Common interests, but a very uncommon female in my high school.




Starstarfish said:


> I hate superficial, catty crap. I hate having to pretend to be someone else to be someone's friend. I don't like people that are easily offended and who don't have a sense of humor. So - it may be as much a personality thing as an interest and hobby thing.


BINGO! That's what I was talking about when I was referring to girl's I know who've said they don't like hanging with other girls. Pretty much those exact words. These girls liked hanging with the guys because the guys didn't care what they looked like or how poorly they dressed as long as their personality fit in. The girls seemed to have more looks or style requirements for social acceptance. The latter type was way more common than the former. 



Starstarfish said:


> I may have my own take on this. I met my husband through an online RPG. (Yes, go ahead and :rofl While we were long-distance dating, late night Molten Core runs were our simulated dates. (A troll Shaman and an orc Hunter make such a cute couple.) And rather than in person gifts, I was amused and flattered how he'd farm gold to buy my avatar a new pair of purple pants to match her outfit. So - apparently, for us at least, we got a lot of mileage out of it. We've now been married five years. And while we rarely get to play MMORPGs together these days - we still engage in similiar types of geeky things.


Like I said, I'm a total geek. I know plenty of people who met this way... usually both having some sort of social issues or awkwardness. Been there done that, and spent years undoing my own social anxiety. I look down on no one. It wouldn't even cross my mind to laugh. I think you have a sweet story.



Starstarfish said:


> We then, have shared interests, though what those interests are have changed somewhat over time. I cannot imagine, for myself, being married with such a gap in our interests and hobbies, though I understand for some that's true.


I can identify. I highly value having common interests... but its very hard to find in the opposite sex imo. Something Always Alone said in another thread that resonated with me is that many people are somewhat deceptive during dating. I run into women with seemingly faux interest in the things I'm interested in all the time. Its disappointing.

I've also noticed that among the more alpha types... independent interests seem more common. There is a greater degree of expected "independent" time without insecurity at being apart for those activities. Its desireable in these relationships. Just my observations.




Starstarfish said:


> My best friend is a lesbian (she came out after we were friends) so ... apparently, even there my female friendships as she's sort of butch, so she isn't the shoe shopping, manicure, celebrity gossiping type either.


ha... most of my female friends are lesbians... but not the butch sort. The sort I started talking to because they were hot, then found out they were lesbian... but they are a lot of fun to party with. Lesbian women love me... I don't get it. Its kind of depressing. lol


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## DvlsAdvc8

FrenchFry said:


> My husband's best friends are women. I f-ing love it, it was an attractive quality about him because he doesn't have the dude-bro mentality of sorting women into "boff" "not boff" and treating them differently accordingly.


Honestly? What do they do together?

Amazing how this forum has such plenty of that which is so rare in the real world. Men with majority female friends. Daily sex is rampant, to hell with Kinsey. Perplexing.



FrenchFry said:


> Also, you probably don't know this as you aren't a woman, but a good chunk of women who are highly politically aware are super reticent to debate politics with dudes IRL for three reasons:
> 
> *Being mansplained at
> *Being condescended towards
> *Taught not to rock the boat


I did not know that. I've asked and I usually get a "don't really care" reply or similar.



FrenchFry said:


> Like always_alone though...I don't know a chick who doesn't do it all the time (in comfortable company...or on Facebook. )
> 
> <---political science and statistics degrees. Hiiiii.


My minor! 

See, I see the political facebook posts, yet most often when I try to discuss the issue... they retreat; with the exception of a few women who seem to act more like the average male - ie 100% sure what they think they know, even though it really isn't so, and seemingly willfully disregarding of incontrovertible evidence. haha

I'm shocked to hear two examples of something I've neither seen or heard of in my entire life: A heterosexual man with more female friends than male friends.

Forgive my skepticism, but according to this forum, everyone's having daily sex too. Yeah, I'm exaggerating, but studies put that kind of frequency into the single digit percentages... I find it highly unlikely you'd find much different (likely much worse!) on a forum for marriage troubles.


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## Starstarfish

Hmm. I guess - I'm uncertain how to answer the OP without sounding like I'm bragging or being TMI. 

But is your wife high strung in other areas of her life as well? I mean is she over-all a perfectionist?


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## DvlsAdvc8

I would just like to say that "mansplained" wins my word of the month award. Love it.


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## Created2Write

always_alone said:


> Well, I'm more of a loner than a club-joiner, so I'm not sure I can help you there. I mean, I really enjoy a good game of chess, but you would still never see me at a chess club.
> 
> That said, here are some places I've seen a good balance of men and women:
> 
> Swimming pool & beach, sports bar, soccer field, cycling tour, expat and traveller haunts, sailing/boating, gaming nights, snorkeling & scuba diving, camping & hiking, music festivals & concerts, wine tasting events, art gallery openings.
> 
> That's off the top of my head. I'm sure there's more. And honestly, this idea that women don't like to argue about politics, religion, and world affairs really does mean that you are only hanging out with a small, not very representative, group of women.


Yup. I agree. 

And actually, Dvls, gymnastics is not dominated by women. My husband was a competitive cheerleader for years, and has always loved gymnastics. We associate women and gymnastics, but men are just as invested in the sport, if not more so. Women only have four categories in gymnastics(uneven bars, vault, floor, balance beam) while men have six(high bar, floor, parallel bars, pommel horse, vault and rings). And because of that, there are just as many men involved in gymnastics as women, and they typically stay in the sport longer than women. 

So, even if there is a social stigma surrounding a specific sport being more a man's or woman's interest, that stigma is not always accurate. In fact, it rarely is from my experience. Please keep in mind that, even in the vast experiences you have had with all the people you've interacted with, those people only represent a very tiny fraction of the population.l There are millions and millions of other people you don't know, and they could, very easily, be the opposite of your experiences. Best not to make such...potentially insulting assumptions.


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## Created2Write

always_alone said:


> It's not really relevant whether or not you wanted to have sex with your female friends. More important is whether or not you stopped talking to them if they chose not to have sex with you. If so, then clearly you're not very interested in friendships with females.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm. I guess I must be pretty damn interesting and fun then, as I've known plenty of men who have sought my company, but not for their sex agenda.
> 
> 
> 
> My SO is not gay and has majority female friends. I've met a few like him over the years. Some men prefer the company of woman because we can be pretty damn fun and interesting.


My husband is VERY hetero and he has mainly female friends as well. He was involved in competitive cheer for many years, and also coached cheer for a while, and so made some good friends. He's very natural with women. Some of them were very attractive, and there was one he was attracted to, but the others were just platonic friends that he got along with. 

Not everything with regards to male-female interaction is sexual.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> Yup. I agree.
> 
> And actually, Dvls, gymnastics is not dominated by women. My husband was a competitive cheerleader for years, and has always loved gymnastics. We associate women and gymnastics, but men are just as invested in the sport, if not more so. Women only have four categories in gymnastics(uneven bars, vault, floor, balance beam) while men have six(high bar, floor, parallel bars, pommel horse, vault and rings). And because of that, there are just as many men involved in gymnastics as women, and they typically stay in the sport longer than women.
> 
> So, even if there is a social stigma surrounding a specific sport being more a man's or woman's interest, that stigma is not always accurate. In fact, it rarely is from my experience. Please keep in mind that, even in the vast experiences you have had with all the people you've interacted with, those people only represent a very tiny fraction of the population.l There are millions and millions of other people you don't know, and they could, very easily, be the opposite of your experiences. Best not to make such...potentially insulting assumptions.


Oh how I would love love love to find some statistics on male/female gymnastics participation. I have extreme doubt about your position and its not based on a stereotypical assumption. My sister was in gymnastics and competitive cheer for many years. She did so in college and continued as an assistant coach/volunteer with her team even a couple years after graduation. I dated a couple cheerleaders through that connection too.

Women, women, everywhere. In competitive cheer, the women FAR outnumbered the men... team after team after team, I don't think I've ever seen one that had more males than females, and I've only seen a couple with equal distribution.

I wouldn't associate the number of events, nor the rates of participation at the highest levels as respresentative of gymnastics as a whole. For a variety of reasons, I'm inclined to think men are more likely to pursue any given physical activity as high as they possibly can.

Damn I wish I could find some statistics. I'm coming up empty.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> My husband is VERY hetero and he has mainly female friends as well. .


Describe the nature of these relationships. What do they do together? I know more women than I know men, I'm "friendly" to all of them, but the vast majority don't fit my definition of friends.

They aren't the central pieces of my social life; they're only tangent to my social circle. When your husband hangs out with his friends, he's hanging out with mostly other women or groups of women?

If you take the wider definition that everyone I'm friendly with or see on the occasional social outing is a friend, then almost everyone I know is my friend. Heck, that makes everyone I work with my friend. That's not a very useful definition, and the reason I earlier tried to differentiate most of these relationships as acquaintances.

From what I know of you and the feelings you've expressed, it seems very incongruous that you'd be fine with your husband having so many female friends unless they were under this wider acquaintance definition.

There are fiends, and then there are friends.  haha


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## Red Sonja

In answer to the original question … yes, I had to “pester” my H for sex. Well, what I did was initiate sex which led to being ignored or re-buffed verbally and, maybe 2x per year I would attempt a conversation about our lack of sex. I did this “pestering” for a few years and then just stopped because it did not make any difference and it was personally humiliating. My H is a man who turns down BJs if you can believe that.

I don’t have any of the sexual pre-conditions that you ascribe to your W, however, I have come to believe that like you my H thinks having sex with me is “too much work”. I am not entirely sure of this because he refuses to discuss it (even in MC), however I once asked him if he masturbated and he replied “Yes, at least once a week”; I then asked him why and he said “It’s just easier that having sex”. 

*Kaboom*, your OP brought me to tears and, I have not cried about this subject in many years.


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## Caribbean Man

Red Sonja said:


> Ihowever I once asked him if he masturbated and he replied “Yes, at least once a week”; I then asked him why and he said “It’s just easier that having sex”.


Ouch!
I can imagine this must be very humiliating.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Sonja, may I ask how old you two are and what physical shape?

When your husband masturbates is he watching porn?

You said he turns down BJs, so I'd think whatever OP was explaining doesn't pertain to you. Receiving a BJ certainly isn't much work! The only reasons I can fathom someone turning down a BJ is guilt, or dissatisfaction with the lack of visual stimulation (porn).


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## Red Sonja

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Sonja, may I ask how old you two are and what physical shape?
> 
> When your husband masturbates is he watching porn?
> 
> You said he turns down BJs, so I'd think whatever OP was explaining doesn't pertain to you. Receiving a BJ certainly isn't much work! The only reasons I can fathom someone turning down a BJ is guilt, or dissatisfaction with the lack of visual stimulation (porn).


DvlsAdvc8, this crap has been going on since year 3 of a 26 year marriage and I have never been able to figure it out, MC didn’t help and H will not discuss it.

To answer your questions: We are both in our 50's. We are both life-long athletes; I played what we used to call AAA baseball for many years and I am still a running coach for pro-triathletes; he is former pro-cyclist (think Tour de France) who still bests current pro-cyclists in time trials. I am built just like Hope Solo (pro-soccer player); H is built like a pro-cyclist … both of us are low fat/muscular with resting heart rates in the low 40’s BPM. FFS, I still do the Ironman event at Camp Pendleton every year and H rides 100+ miles per week (mountain rides). The point is I don’t think looks or fitness/heath is the problem.

I have no idea what he looks at or thinks of when he masturbates, the only porn I have ever found on his computer is the “college girl webcam” type. Two psychologists have told me he is a narcissist, so maybe that’s it. Who knows? I quit trying to figure out what the problem is years ago because it is like beating my head against a brick wall.


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## Caribbean Man

Red Sonja said:


> DvlsAdvc8, this crap has been going on since year 3 of a 26 year marriage and I have never been able to figure it out, MC didn’t help and H will not discuss it.
> 
> To answer your questions: We are both in our 50's. We are both life-long athletes; I played what we used to call AAA baseball for many years and I am still a running coach for pro-triathletes; he is former pro-cyclist (think Tour de France) who still bests current pro-cyclists in time trials. I am built just like Hope Solo (pro-soccer player); H is built like a pro-cyclist … both of us are low fat/muscular with resting heart rates in the low 40’s BPM. FFS, I still do the Ironman event at Camp Pendleton every year and H rides 100+ miles per week (mountain rides). The point is I don’t think looks or fitness/heath is the problem.
> 
> I have no idea what he looks at or thinks of when he masturbates, the only porn I have ever found on his computer is the “college girl webcam” type. Two psychologists have told me he is a narcissist, so maybe that’s it. Who knows? I quit trying to figure out what the problem is years ago because it is like beating my head against a brick wall.


I have never read your story [ if you have one posted here ], but what you just wrote is baffling to me. Both of you are at the peak of your careers , physically fit , have always been and in your 26 yr marriage , he seems to have very little desire for sex?
It's hard for me to even think about that.

There are so many variants in this whole HD vs LD debate , but the end result is always psychological and emotional trauma.
Hence, I fully understand and can empathize with the OP and others like yourself in similar situations.
You seem very composed in spite of it and that is admirable , if I was in your situation , I would have been bitter.


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## Kaboom

Hey all,
Just wanted to say sorry for not getting back to anyone with fielding questions on this thread- I've only had a little time to post and read TAM, and all of my efforts have been in a different area on the site.

To sum up as much as possible as quickly as possible- Yes, we used to have a decent sex life. We're both considered extremely kinky and have done things that would disgust most of you. The problem is that at some point, she changed.. not so much her interests and stuff, but her personality took a 180. It took me some time to realize that the change wasn't overnight, but as it turns out, she is seemingly BPD.. 

In hashing this out on the disorders section, it really seems like the most plausible explanation that covers not only the sex problems, but the constant accusations, hot/cold, etc.. I realized- nobody can have sex with someone who loves them 4 times and hates them 6 times in a 10 minute period. This is why things switch off for her so suddenly that one minute she loves me and I'm doing everything right, and the next minute she hates me and I'm doing everything wrong.

You cannot imagine what a nightmare it is to live with someone like this.

So anyways.. if you take anything from my ranting, just take it that sometimes, people can and do make having sex "difficult" for the other party, and if that happens more often than not, the other party WILL start to see sex (with you) as work, and avoid it, or seek it elsewhere. This is true for both sexes.

I won't have time to respond much if at all, and I do apologize for that. I have a lot of reading to do (have both books on dealing with BPD's). Peace.


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## MrsG2013

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, I knew you were addressing me, that is why I answered you.
> 
> Nothing I have said is any more than sharing my own opinion. I just happen to also be uppity in my communication style.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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