# Service Towards Spouse



## Riverside MFT (Oct 5, 2009)

I cannot tell you how important it is for husbands and wives to regularly put their needs aside and focus on serving their spouse in one way or another. Marriage is about giving of yourself and supporting your spouse. The bond that occurs when two selfless people are giving of themselves and trying to make their spouse happy is incredible. Selfishness in marriage often leads to emotional and/or sexual affairs, addictions, intense communiation problems, and distance between spouses. Selfless love is needed if a marriage is going to last.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I respectfully disagree. It is absolutely impossible to take ones “self” out of any transaction in life. Our “self” always exists and it will always exist until we’re 6ft under the grounder or a bunch of ashes. And because of that self-less acts are an absolute impossibility.

In my mind it is far better to be truly aware of what our values and beliefs and true motivations are for doing something and identify and define “what’s in it for me, what do I get out of this?” because that’s a self-aware and an open and realistic approach to life’s transactions.

People from Hitler to Mother Theresa all did things for their own self-ish reasons, they could never take their “self” out of any of their transactions, who can? So sure we are all self-ish people. The difference between people like Hitler and Mother Theresa are their values and beliefs, their motivations and they are either good or bad.

You’ve started this thread for self-ish reasons and you’ll know what those reasons are. Try taking your “self” out of this thread, you’ll find that an absolute impossibility.

Bob


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Bit of a challenge for you Brian. Two things 1) how would you describe “Selfless Love” and 2) can you give three examples of selfless acts.

My motivation is that I could well be wrong in my belief that selflessness does not exist and I’m always willing to learn, getting ready for my next relationship.

Bob


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

But isn't that how abusers manipulate to get the upper hand?
Taking advantage of spouses who believe just that, and continue to do it, thinking it will get them the same in return, eventually, some day, (just like a slot machine always pays out)? Where is all this love and devotion supposed to come from, when the well runs dry and there is nothing left to give and the person ends up just a shell, devoid of anything inside they could call their own to give in the first place?


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I think each partner must be selfless in giving the other partner what they need. But, each partner must be selfish by expecting that their needs will be met.

When it's all about "giving" and not about "getting", funny things happen. For example, let's say I decide I am only going to "give" my wife what she needs and be completely selfless and not at all selfish. She could say "I need to not have so much sex". Therefore, under your model, I have to selflessly accept it. And guess what, I become miserable and the marriage falls apart.

Under a giver / taker type model, the situation would be different. If my wife tried to trade on my selflessness and say she did not want so much sex, I would say that is a core need of mine and that each of us has to meet the core needs of the other for the marriage to function. I would offer to step up and meet any needs that she has that I am lacking but I would not selflessly walk away from my needs. And in this model, the marriage does last.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Selflessness is impossible since the very act of giving gives us pleasure. This works when both parties are "givers".

In my case I was a giver(still am) and my STBXW is a selfish taker. After awhile as a previous poster mentioned, the well runs dry and we become empty shells since out needs were not met.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mr.miketastic (Aug 5, 2010)

In my case, my being too "selfless" cause her to treat me with disdain and suspicion. My acts of service caused her to accuse me of trying to make her feel guilty, or purely for sex. 

What needs to happen is to man, or woman up, set boundaries and communicate effectively. Those rules can resolve most problems but not all.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

AFEH said:


> Bit of a challenge for you Brian. Two things 1) how would you describe “Selfless Love” and 2) can you give three examples of selfless acts.


For me it is often the small things. I hate red beans and rice. I make red beans and rice because HE likes them. I want him home with me. I suggest he grab a friend and go hiking. 

For bigger things, I KNOW what I want. But I have to spend effort to understand what he wants. I intuit my love language. I have to think and put effort into speaking his love language. I know my communication style. I have to think to be effective at his communication style...


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

It is a balancing act between giving everywhere you can, and setting limits and enforcing them on your core values.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I completely agree that, ideally, love needs to involve selflessness. The detractors point to abusers exploiting this ideal. That's not selflessness at all. Selfless service assumes both parties are primarily attending to the others' needs. Love is vulnerability and evil people will always exploit the vulnerable. That doesn't mean love or vulnerability is wrong. That just means there are sick people in the world and we should be careful about whom we latch onto.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Riverside MFT said:


> I cannot tell you how important it is for husbands and wives to regularly put their needs aside and focus on serving their spouse in one way or another. Marriage is about giving of yourself and supporting your spouse. The bond that occurs when two selfless people are giving of themselves and trying to make their spouse happy is incredible. Selfishness in marriage often leads to emotional and/or sexual affairs, addictions, intense communiation problems, and distance between spouses. Selfless love is needed if a marriage is going to last.


I agree with this for the most part but I can see where AFEH is coming from also in his 1st post. .....as people can go through the motions of acting selfless/giving when thier heart is not into something, or they are trying to gain something else (NICE GUY SYNDROME -doing acts of service to get more sex). 

If the selflessness is not accompanied with an attitude of love & giving in itself for it's own pleasure, desiring to solely please your spouse because it also FULLFILLS YOU in doing so , then it would be worthless to me personally -frankly, I would divorce someone who only lived for me, to keep me happy but he rarely got JOY out of it or it was not pleasureable to him also. I would find it utterly boring- a robot mentality to "keep vows'. 


I came to the realization a while ago, that in the bedroom , I do not want all selfLESSness on the part of my partner , I want a SELFISH DESIRE coming from him, that is what PASSION is made of, so a little selfishness is GOOOOOD. I think most men would die for that in their wives, not just her selflessly being receptive to his advances, but feeling a selfish lust from her that she NEEDS him and wants him now! Being selfish in these things can also mean desiring to please. I would say I SELFISHLY want to turn my husband on so we can have great sex! And he is happy that I feel that way-- if I was doing it "just to please him", it would loose some of it's allure. But sure, sometimes he goes along for the ride, and sometimes I do -but the best times are when we both selfishly want it ! 


I NEED to be who I am , flaws and all sometimes , not putting myself down at every turn, I want the same from my husband. 

Even if a little selfishness causes some fights once in a while, so what! Then we get to have great make up sex! A little turbulance can be just what is needed to spark things up. We are not denying who we are, luckily we have enough in common to overcome all of our squabbles -and we can even laugh about them afterwards, sometimes almost falling on the floor. 

I could not be with someone who had TOO many differences than me, I think it could lead to some resentment. Too much of a tendency to either become a #1 doormat or #2 just going through the motions-devoid of feeling. 

I am all of the belief that we need to be VERY CAREFUL to marry someone with similar love languages in a similar order, temperments that compliment each other, similar beliefs/morals, marital goals, ideas on $$, sex, raising kids & always communicating, possesing a listening ear & understanding & forgiving heart. 

The more you got going on here - chances are the less you will have to put yourself down for the other, less of an uphill battle in marital compatability --GIVING BECOMES EASY and you want to do it -you will find you naturally appreciate the other & desire to love them the way they want to be loved, even with their flaws and a little selfishness along the way. 

When you have much of this in common, you selfishly enjoy pleasing your partner >> now their is an attitude to catch , but for me to call myself selfless in that, it is a bit of a lie, cause it is seriously not even putting myself down !


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

I think the problem with many people is that they give with expectations. Until you can give without expecting something in return this will never work. You will eventually feel slighted because relationships are rarely equally balanced.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

magnoliagal said:


> I think the problem with many people is that they give with expectations. Until you can give without expecting something in return this will never work.


I agree with this. The thing is, giving without expecting often yields the positive feelings in the other that makes them also want to give back.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

I always thought of my husband and his happiness. What I got back in return was abuse. While at the time I felt loving and considerate and patient, patient, patient, always giving him the benefit of the doubt, complete trust...in the end I was a doormat. You would think that a person would treat someone who loved them with kindness or at least respect, but that is not what I received in return. I didn't expect it, the giving was good for me, but on the other hand, when there are negative consequences to the giving and selfless loving and acts of kindness and regard, then you have to realize that you are better off not doing all that giving. At what point does inequality in the giving equation tip the scales to abuse? Not only did he walk all over me, he allowed other people that were his friends and acqaintances to abuse me and walk all over me, I said nothing because I did not want to disrupt his friendships. I really don't see how all this giving did anything good for me, except to realize how abusive a person he really is. It's one thing to not give back or to have another love language, but when the spouse is abusive emotionally, verbally, physically, please don't tell me it's on account of a lack of giving and the person on the end of the hurtful stuff simply isn't giving 'correctly' or 'selflessly' or that their 'expectations are wrong'.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

Mom6547 said:


> I agree with this. The thing is, giving without expecting often yields the positive feelings in the other that makes them also want to give back.


Exactly! By nature I'm a taker so when I did give it was only because I wanted something. It wasn't sincere and he knew that. Now that I get this I can give freely without expectations. And now he is starting to be inspired to meet my needs as well.

This was a hard concept for me to get btw. Kind of like definition of insanity was I kept doing the same things over and over but expecting different results. Never worked.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

You needed to be way MORE selfish Homemaker! This is precisely why I am not against all selfishness, within reason & with wisdom it is dagone necessary in love ! I do not believe in unconditional love, that is a breeding ground for abusers.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

When someone is abusive, the only thing it's an indication of is that they're an insecure jerk. People are solely responsible for their own evil acts. In a perfect world, severely evil people would be branded prominently or exterminated. We do neither so, naturally, decent people are going to be victimized by them. The responsibility is not on the victim.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

magnoliagal said:


> Exactly! By nature I'm a taker so when I did give it was only because I wanted something. It wasn't sincere and he knew that. Now that I get this I can give freely without expectations. And now he is starting to be inspired to meet my needs as well.
> 
> This was a hard concept for me to get btw.


Amen, sister. It took some serious dope slapping to get that through to me. 



> Kind of like definition of insanity was I kept doing the same things over and over but expecting different results. Never works.


Double amen, sister.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> I completely agree that, ideally, love needs to involve selflessness. The detractors point to abusers exploiting this ideal. That's not selflessness at all. Selfless service assumes both parties are primarily attending to the others' needs. Love is vulnerability and evil people will always exploit the vulnerable. That doesn't mean love or vulnerability is wrong. That just means there are sick people in the world and we should be careful about whom we latch onto.


Surely to continue giving “selfless service” a person needs a return of “selfless service”, both partners attending to the other’s needs. Otherwise they will stop giving.

This is like the tennis analogy. If we keep hitting the ball over the net and it doesn’t come back we get pretty tired of the game and stop hitting the ball over the net, because we’re not getting anything back.

So to get selfless service they give selfless service. So it’s not selfless service at all. It is though selfish service, giving with the expectation of something in return.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I think both should be willing and prepared to carry all the water for the relationship temporarily when required, but only a masochist would accept that as a permanent lifestyle.


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## Riverside MFT (Oct 5, 2009)

It is true, AEFH, 99% of the time I serve my wife because I enjoy her reaction. Seeing my wife smile and hearing her say "thank you" just makes my day. So yes, I am relatively "selfish" even when serving my wife.
A couple of examples (my wife does better in this area than me). Almost every day, when I come home from work my wife has dinner ready to eat. She doesn't always enjoy making dinner, but she enjoys pleasing me and likes the family to be together during dinner. On my end, I often give my wife backrubs and though it sometimes leads to great lovemaking, that is not why I do it (honestly).
I have learned that when things not are going great in my marriage, if I work harder at serving my wife (such as backrubs, changing poopy diapers, cleaning the bathrooms) our relationship improves dramatically. As I strive to serve her, she also strives to serve me. As she strives to serve me, I strive to return that same kindness to her.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Riverside MFT said:


> It is true, AEFH, 99% of the time I serve my wife because I enjoy her reaction. Seeing my wife smile and hearing her say "thank you" just makes my day. So yes, I am relatively "selfish" even when serving my wife.
> A couple of examples (my wife does better in this area than me). Almost every day, when I come home from work my wife has dinner ready to eat. She doesn't always enjoy making dinner, but she enjoys pleasing me and likes the family to be together during dinner. On my end, I often give my wife backrubs and though it sometimes leads to great lovemaking, that is not why I do it (honestly).
> I have learned that when things not are going great in my marriage, if I work harder at serving my wife (such as backrubs, changing poopy diapers, cleaning the bathrooms) our relationship improves dramatically. As I strive to serve her, she also strives to serve me. As she strives to serve me, I strive to return that same kindness to her.


Amen, our relationship is like this too. I get up every morning to cook my husband breakfast, sort out his vitamins and pack him a healthy lunch (even when I sometimes stay up till 2:00am reading or on TAM) --just cause I love him, I want him to stay healthy so we can have many years together & we can sustain our happening sex life too. It is all in what is important to us , right ! 


I try to cut the grass to spare him the trouble-so he will have more time for me ! Today I need to sand & newspaper one of our cars so when he comes home, he can paint it. We work together. These things are not exactly enjoyable - but to have our life & marriage run smoothly, these acts of service are ever so necessary. For him, for the kids - cause I want to make them happy. *To make them happy, makes ME happy*. It is contagious really. 

And he does a ton of things for me, like his 2nd nature, he scratches my back every night, plays with my hair for hours while I lay on him -us watching a movie together. All of these little helpful intimate moments of giving, they speak love, caring, desire = fullfillment.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

This thread & the difference in opionion makes me think of this book Amazon.com: The Giving Tree (Slipcased Mini Edition) (9780060284510): Shel Silverstein: Books I stumbled upon this book one day looking for something else, I started reading reviews & became even more intreged - so I bought the book. 

I still keep it displayed on my shelf, sometimes asking friends to take 3 minutes, read it & tell me what they got out of it . College students have written essays on it. I believe it is more about Parental love though-or God's love, not marital love. But others have seen this in it too. 

This is just an example of how vastly different people see "unconditional love" in a parable form.... 

This review was so absolutely halarious, entitled "Horrifyingly Depressing - a kids reviews" ....


> Let me start off by saying, that if this book is in your posession, throw it away. But before you do, rip off the back cover of the book and bury it underground so you don't give the garbage men a heart attack. Honestly! The author looks like an ungroomed cavemen who, by the way, is staring at you irritably, and looking like he'd much rather kick you, then look at you. Silverstein looks like a surprise monster on the back cover that's supposed to freak you out for laughs. That alone lets you know that the book is going to sadden/depress/scare you.
> 
> I'm twelve years old. I read the book. At first, I thought it was good.....but then as I got towards the end, it started to dawn on me: "That tree's an idiot, and the boy's not helping the situation." Eventually, I made it through the end, which left me in bewilderment and confusion. Unconditional love? So if you love someone, you are supposed to let them chop you up to pieces, and then when they come back as an ugly, shriveled man, let them sit on you? Silverstein was confused when he wrote this. Poor guy.
> 
> ...


and for the interest of seeing the author he was talking about -- this is the photo on the back cover









and here is a list of the beautiful reviews , they abound. Amazon.com: Customer Reviews

I personally can see both sides. Just funny though, how a concept can be looked upon in such shockingly different ways, this unconditional Love and giving.


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## Red347 (Jun 12, 2011)

What is this world coming to?!!??? Since when can a wife stand up and say, " OKAY!! THERE ISN'T GOING TO BE ANYMORE SEX!!!! Why did you get married in the first place then. FOR BETTER OR FOR WORSE...REMEMBER! Single men never have this problem while they are dating. Marriage is a damn trap, I tell you. They should be made to have sex by law. Why? Because if you go outside the marriage and have sex, they will divorce you and get child support. The same child support officers that come and put a boot on your car, should be holding her legs apart. Then they tell you porn and masturbation is wrong, and they will divorce you for that! What options do you have left?


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## Cara (Aug 15, 2010)

Red347 said:


> What is this world coming to?!!??? Since when can a wife stand up and say, " OKAY!! THERE ISN'T GOING TO BE ANYMORE SEX!!!! Why did you get married in the first place then. FOR BETTER OR FOR WORSE...REMEMBER! Single men never have this problem while they are dating. Marriage is a damn trap, I tell you. They should be made to have sex by law. Why? Because if you go outside the marriage and have sex, they will divorce you and get child support. The same child support officers that come and put a boot on your car, should be holding her legs apart. Then they tell you porn and masturbation is wrong, and they will divorce you for that! What options do you have left?


Holy crap.


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## Boogsie (Aug 24, 2010)

Mom6547 said:


> I agree with this. The thing is, giving without expecting often yields the positive feelings in the other that makes them also want to give back.


This is great in theory, but through both of my marriages failed in practice. I gave for years now through my 2nd marriage expecting nothing in return. It wasn't until I threw in a little selfishness and said, "Hey WTF! You are perfectly happy, I'm meeting your needs, why are mine going unmet?" I gave my wife everything she needed from me and I'm still waiting for those rewards to reap.

Early on when I started asking, "Where's mine?" I was given it in the form of, "You are a sex addict." "You are over sexed." I heard all these things that I was because I wanted sexual intimacy once a week rather than the 1-4 months as had come to be customary.

Nothing changed until I threatened to ruin her cushy no job, no kids, stay at home life. Now I get sex more often....sometimes, but we still have no life together. I can't get her ass out of her computer chair.

Her idea of doing things together are being in the same room..................doing different things. :scratchhead:


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

Boogsie said:


> This is great in theory, but through both of my marriages failed in practice. I gave for years now through my 2nd marriage expecting nothing in return.


Oh nobody is recommending giving for years without getting your needs met too. That's going far the other way. Mom and I were just saying sometimes when you give without expectations that person will be motivated to give back.

It's not fool proof though. There are lots of clueless takers out there.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Isn't this what a state of grace is? To give your lover utterly because it's the right and loving thing to do whether there's a 'payback' or not? I close my eyes and love you for free because it's right you are loved.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> Isn't this what a state of grace is? To give your lover utterly because it's the right and loving thing to do whether there's a 'payback' or not? I close my eyes and love you for free because it's right you are loved.


If my needs aren't being met I can still love you. It will just be from afar. The right thing to do in a marriage is for both spouses to love each other for free. This isn't about payback it's about each spouse having the right to be loved by the other. 

Sadly lots of people love everything else more than their spouses.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

That's the kicker. Just me love back or shoot me already. Pick one.


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

Riverside MFT said:


> As I strive to serve her, she also strives to serve me. As she strives to serve me, I strive to return that same kindness to her.


I am on board with stepping up the service and seeing it come back to me, but she rarely initiates any actions on her own and her efforts always appear to be less than half of mine. If I stopped she would stop, till the marriage is faultering. 

How do I get her to take ownership of actions, not reactions?


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## Riverside MFT (Oct 5, 2009)

Changing ourselves takes a long time. It takes persistance and determination. It is not a matter of serving your spouse for a week and then expecting results. You have to change youself day by day. I would suggest serving your wife for 40 days. After that time you will notice a significant difference in your relationship, not because your spouse has changed, but because you have changed. For more information you can read this Improve My Marriage: Change your marriage by changing yourself


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

Riverside MFT said:


> Changing ourselves takes a long time. It takes persistance and determination. It is not a matter of serving your spouse for a week and then expecting results. You have to change youself day by day. I would suggest serving your wife for 40 days. After that time you will notice a significant difference in your relationship, not because your spouse has changed, but because you have changed. For more information you can read this Improve My Marriage: Change your marriage by changing yourself


I have been at it for a couple months now and she is getting better in some areas, but it seems that she keeps on defaulting to the way things were. I will keep at it and hope she climbs aboard.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

This is me said:


> I am on board with stepping up the service and seeing it come back to me, but she rarely initiates any actions on her own and her efforts always appear to be less than half of mine. If I stopped she would stop, till the marriage is faultering.
> 
> How do I get her to take ownership of actions, not reactions?


If 1) Your wife is proactive in other areas of her life, and If 2) She clearly knows what it is you want her to be proactive about in her relationship with you and if 3) You are totally convinced she is more than capable of providing you with the things you are asking of her then she may well be deliberately withholding in order to cause you pain and suffering.

Your wife may well be a Passive Aggressive.

From: Passive-aggressive behavior: How can I recognize it? - MayoClinic.com
Specific signs and symptoms of passive-aggressive behaviour include: 
Resentment and opposition to the demands of others
Complaining about feeling underappreciated or cheated
Procrastination
Stubbornness
Inefficiency
Memory lapses
Sullenness
Irritability
Cynical or hostile attitude


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## Riverside MFT (Oct 5, 2009)

Relationships and people are like thermostats in that they don't like change. Sometimes when one person is trying to change (even for the better) the other person in the relationship will do things in order to bring that person back down. This is done simply because people are uncomfortable with change. TIM (This is me), way to go at being persistent in striving to be a better. Do you notice in difference (no matter how small) in yourself since you have been working on changing? Keep at it and you will continually become a better and stronger man.


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