# New to these boards - need a little advice and an ear to listen



## larry_talbot (Sep 30, 2009)

Hello,
My wife and I have been married 11 years. We have a wonderful 1 year old baby, who I love with all my heart. My problem is that I don't know if I love my wife anymore. We've never had the best marriage in the world: sex dropped off and became a recurring problem and source of tension after the first year, there's been numerous exclamations (from my wife) of "I want a divorce, I want you to leave" during fights and we've never had (again, since the first year) a huge amount of passion - though lately my wife blames the latter solely on my shoulders. 

But, we've worked through it and continued to be stay together. As I said, it's not been that great, but it's not been as bad as I've seen other couples. The problem is that, after years of this, I want something fun and great. I know, from going through it, that passion dies down in a relationship, but I can't help feeling it can be better than this. I've tried to make that passion with my wife, but we don't really click sexually and lately it's brought back the same old tension. I'm just not sure what to do. It's not like we fight all the time or one of us is unfaithful, but it's not like the marriage makes either of us happy anymore.


----------



## maynard2121 (Sep 25, 2009)

take the time to tell her how much she means to you. I mean really take the time. I know I love ,my wife- but rarely let her know they way she need to hear it and feel it. Now I too am paying the price. Life is busy, and we get caught up in things./ Take the time to slow it down and be w/ her.


----------



## JamesM (Sep 17, 2009)

Larry....

You have made a good start. By posting here, you have decided to deal with the situation. IMO if you really wanted a divorce, then you would not have bothered to post your story. It is just that you do not see any other way out.

And there may be or there may not be. That is the answer you are seeking.

Personally, I am in a fairly sexless marriage and have had many online discussions about it. This has at least given me many ideas to try for resolving the situation. In my situation, we do have love and 19 yrs of marriage and children. Divorce is not an option for me.

My suggestion to you is to treat this as a project. The problem is..., possible reasons are....., possible solutions are.....

Then take the list and work through each idea and see if it makes a difference.

Here are some ideas....

The previous poster said it simply and it sounds like a cliche but it is an idea. Reconnect with your wife. If there is love inside of you for her (as there must be or this thread wouldn't be here), then begin dating her again. Passion dies in a marriage because we let it happen. Passion is not some magical feeling that stays with those who are married. The lack of passion does not mean love is not present. Passion can be brought back again.

Why does she say YOU are the reason the passion is gone? For the sake of your child, you should examine each reason and see if there is some viability to it. Do the two of you spend time talking about your days together? Do you treat each other as friends and confidants? What did you see in her when you were married? Does she feel as if you care more about others than her?

If this was a recent thing, then I could easily point to her pregnancy and the presence of a new child. This brings alot of chaos in a family. Could that be why you want something different now?

Is there any issues in the past that may be causing the problems in the present? Affairs, porn, etc...

Search the web. There are many places that give good insight into situations such as yours. Many have found new life when confronted with problems that you have.


----------



## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

What are YOU doing to make your marriage a happy one? Are you finding things to do with her and for her to bring her joy?

I read something the other day that was really important. People love the people who make them feel good about themselves. 

Think about that.

How much time have you spent making her feel bad about sex? 

She's got a 1 year old. That's a lot of work. What do you do with your child? A lot of times a mother will complain that the father doesn't spend enough time with the child. It also means that she doesn't get the attention she'd prefer, but she'll settle for the father being with the child.

Are you passionate about anything? Excited about anything? Do you share your passions? Hobbies? Do you take her places and do things together?

You're looking to her to fulfill your needs. You're thinking about external sources of happiness. The real problem is more internal. It is about what you're not doing yourself. 

Make yourself interesting.


----------



## larry_talbot (Sep 30, 2009)

Thank you all for your replies!

JamesM: I have thought about staying together for the baby, but right now he's at this age that, if we were to separate, he would not remember a time when we were together and (I would think), it would be a lot easier than if we did later on, when he could remember. As for why the passion is gone, I can't answer for my wife, but I know that, on my end, I would time and time again (and well before we had a baby), try to be passionate, but as the years went on, it got more eye rolls than anything. Any suggestions of "making out" (heavy kissing w/o assumptions of sex), my wife felt were too teenager-y. I even suggested silly things that I love, like going to a drive-in, but she felt they were just that..silly and not appealing. We used to go to B&B's all the time, but even those got dull for both of us. To me, it seems to be a matter of trying new things, but everything I suggest my wife is not up for and, when prompted, she has no suggestions for me, other than a black and white option "If you don't like how I am, leave." The friends and confidants part of our relationship has never been an issue. We were great friends before we were married and continue to be. It's the other part of our relationship I worry about.

There have been issues in the past and we saw a counselor once before. That did not end well, my wife did not like the counselor and has since refused to go back, even to a different one. Your project idea gives me something to think about, thank you!

Dobo: I am actually greatly offended by the tone of most of your reply. I've found similar sentiments online in my searches and it disheartens me even more. You see, I am actually the main caregiver for our child. I get him ready every morning, put him to bed every night and, because of our schedules, I am with him much more often during the day than my wife. In addition, I do almost all of the housecleaning and make dinner every night i am home. I've not spent a moment making her feel bad about sex. WHen it does not work out, I tell her it's okay and we cuddle for awhile. Your post could offer something, but your accusatory tone (especially inappropriate when you obviously don't know the home situation) obscures that. I am sorry.


----------



## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

I am not accusing you of anything. I am offering observations. I asked questions and you are offended. That's your choice. 

I don't like hearing that you get eye-rolls from your wife. Are you familiar with some of the characteristics that John Gottman considers representative of couples who will eventually divorce? Eye-rolls are one of them. (Look up some Gottman books and ask her to read them with you.)

So she feels that your criticism of the way you experience one another sexually is a criticism of her. Can you see how she might feel that way? You aren't excited enough and you are searching for it and she perhaps is wondering why you can't just be happy the way things are. YOu want new things. She has seen that new things don't cut it for you because you continue to want novelty.

How's her self-esteem in other areas?

Do you have fun in other areas together?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Larry,
As a man I will just tell you - you cannot fix this. You have already done ALL the core stuff. You have the two classic issues of a sexless/soon to be sexless marriage. 
1. Your wife is not physiologically responding to you - which is unfortunate. She was sort of like this from the start and it just got worse. Pretty common pattern. It will not get better. 
2. Your happiness is not enough of a priority for your wife for her to extend herself sexually to please you. 

Not only is two true in terms of sexual indifference, it is true to the degree that she will tell you if you don't like it leave. 

Mostly I agree with Dobo about stuff. We do have some areas where we vehemently disagree particularly regarding 
the importance of sexual compatibility in a marriage. 

I totally agree that it is not my wifes job to make me happy. However - I have committed to only only have sex with her. This is the one and only area of my life where I AM totally dependent on her. So if she ignores me sexually - and I am not allowed outside outlet - then I am unhappy. I AM UNHAPPY. 

Blaming the rejected spouse for not self actualizing is ludicrous. And that is exactly what she is doing. 

If the situation were reversed, and you knew how unhappy your wife was about sex, wouldn't you provide her with a certain amount of mercy sex just to make her happy. Simply because making her happy makes you happy? I love making my wife happy, seeing her smile. That is part of a happy marriage. That is commitment. 






dobo said:


> I am not accusing you of anything. I am offering observations. I asked questions and you are offended. That's your choice.
> 
> I don't like hearing that you get eye-rolls from your wife. Are you familiar with some of the characteristics that John Gottman considers representative of couples who will eventually divorce? Eye-rolls are one of them. (Look up some Gottman books and ask her to read them with you.)
> 
> ...


----------



## JamesM (Sep 17, 2009)

Larry, since I am presenting a different angle than mem11363 (hello, mem, we meet again) and dobo, I will expand just a bit.

First as mem knows, I have a almost sexless marriage as well. I understand what you are saying better than most. And I will say that all of my possible solutions have not solved my lack of sex. This does not mean that yours will not be more successful.

Second, it is correct as you probably know, that changing her is not possible. However, that does not mean that trying some ideas to help your marriage won't cause a change in her. It happens all of the time.

Third, no matter how you cut it, you have a child. Leaving now or leaving later simply means that the child had you more or less. The future will still be a divided family. For you, being a part of his life is not only better for him but for you. And since he is young yet, I sense that you do not feel the attachment that comes with time. Down the road you may regret leaving too soon. 

Fourth, I say take this on as a project for a couple of reason. If you succeed, then you have changed your and her future together. If you do not succeed but have tried every possible way to make a difference, then you can leave not feeling as a failure but knowing that you did the best that you could. Too many people leave too soon, and then look back with regret when they see their ex change due to something they could have taken the time to do. Instead it is the next guy who figures out the solution.

I am guessing that the issues in the past do have an influence on today's situation. And based on reading your posts, I think I see it differently than the others. In this case, IMO sex is not the issue but the symptom.

Now as simple as this sounds, and it may not be much....you mention doing things like going to B&Bs (Bed and Breakfast places, yes?) to spend time together. Is the goal to bond closer or to improve your sex life? You say you are great friends, but does that mean that if she had a free night and you had a free night, you both say that being together is better than being with other friends? Does she see you trying to spend time with her as simply a precursor to an expectation for sex? When you want to "make out," do you do so to get her excited or simply to spend time with her? Does she think you view her as a "hole" or does she think you genuinely want to express your love for her?

All I can say that where I am at now after spending at least four or more years trying different ideas, I know that I have done my best. Whatever the future brings, I have put the ball in her court. And there is a long story to it, but she has told me that she wants our sex life back, too. So I am patiently waiting. I no longer worry or have any expectations for change. If she wants her marriage and life as it is and if her love for me is as strong as she now says it is, then she will take the initiative to find out what happened to her libido.

In order for you to reach that stage, IMO you should rule out all possible reasons for her lack of sex. And when you do your research, do so trying to put yourself in HER shoes. Why does he feel as she does? What in her life may cause her to not want sex? What has happened in your marriage to help her lose interest in sex? Perhaps it goes back to her childhood and how she views sex. Perhaps she was abused. The list goes on and on.

Perhaps you can do nothing. But until you have exhausted the possible reasons and ruled them out, then you just don't know yet.

Two books I will recommend to you as a help to find out possible reasons and solutions....

The Sex Starved Marriage 
(This was very helpful in explaining why I feel as I do and why she may feel as she does.)

I'm Not in the Mood: What Every Woman Should Know About Improving Her Libido 
(Yes, it is to women, but it will give you a list of many reasons why women lose their interest in sex. I would recommend this one first.)

Here is another that was recommended to me, but I have not read yet......

The Passionate Marriage 
(It looks like a book that could be very helpful).

Again, if I could leave you with one thing, then it would be this....leaving your marriage knowing you did everything possible to improve it will be much better for you and your future than leaving it and discovering later that you could have saved it. Even if you try everything and do not achieve a happy marriage, at least later you can feel comfortable that you did not leave without at least trying everything that you could.

Good luck, my friend. Truly I understand.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Larry,
Here are the "rules" for you to be content - and that is the very best you can hope for in this type situation. 
- If you do anything - anything that would be considered romantic in a normal relationship. Go on a trip someplace special, take her on a super well planned out date, etc. If you do those things and you get zero sex - the rules say you are not allowed to be angry or disappointed. AT ALL. Because if you did those things with the goal of getting her to want or even to tolerate sex with you, then all your efforts DO NOT COUNT. I do not know why this is - but all you do gets negated by one simple phrase - "oh you were just doing that to get sex, she figured it out and it turned her off"

As for your child. If I were the kid - I would prefer a happy energetic upbeat father I saw part time, to a frustrated, quietly resentful guy I see every day. 

>>>>>>>>>>>
The message from Dobo and James is for you to do basically everything right - be a model husband - but do it totally and 100 percent for the pleasure of being good. If something comes of it great, if not, well at least you are a good guy. 

That is the madness of this mind set. If you asked - "should I marry a woman I am not really sexually attracted to?" James and Dobo and others would look and with utter incredulity would ask "Are you insane?, no do NOT do that." And yet if you marry a woman you ARE sexually attracted for, doing all these things that are supposed to create a loving response, means nothing if you didn't do them for totally pure motives. 

By the way, this is the only niche in the universe where that is true. If I pulled the employees of your company into a room and said - from now on, don't expect a paycheck - and don't ask for one. If you are not willing to come in and work hard just to contribute to the team, then we don't want you here. How would that go over?

As for James - ask him how long his marriage has been sexless and how long he has been completely focused on resolving that issue? 

And if you read his posts elsewhere you will find that he has slowly, slowly watched it eat away at his feelings for his wife like acid. And he is one of the most patient, understanding, empathetic (yes he has huge empathy for his wife - which is a necessary ability in a healthy marriage) men I know of. 

The books he referenced. They are all good and all valid. But if item (2) above is true - meaning your wife doesn't really care that this is making you crazy, the books don't matter because working alone on this is like pushing on a string.



JamesM said:


> Larry, since I am presenting a different angle than mem11363 (hello, mem, we meet again) and dobo, I will expand just a bit.
> 
> First as mem knows, I have a almost sexless marriage as well. I understand what you are saying better than most. And I will say that all of my possible solutions have not solved my lack of sex. This does not mean that yours will not be more successful.
> 
> ...


----------



## JamesM (Sep 17, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> As for your child. If I were the kid - I would prefer a happy energetic upbeat father I saw part time, to a frustrated, quietly resentful guy I see every day.


I agree. And regarding "the rules," yes, it is sad that doing things expecting sex can simply negate doing those things.

I think in a perfect world, then we would all love to see our parents happy all of the time. It aint going to happen no matter how much sex we get.




> The message from Dobo and James is for you to do basically everything right - be a model husband - but do it totally and 100 percent for the pleasure of being good. If something comes of it great, if not, well at least you are a good guy.


Not true...at least not from me. I won't try to speak for dobo.

My point is that leaving before doing anything will always leave a question....did I do all that I could? And assuming there is love here, this will carry over into the next relationship/marriage.



> And yet if you marry a woman you ARE sexually attracted for, doing all these things that are supposed to create a loving response, means nothing if you didn't do them for totally pure motives.


Either you missed the point or it wasn't spelled out clearly enough for you. If the motive is sex, then this is short term thinking. If it is for the motive of loving her, then it can produce longer term results.



> If I pulled the employees of your company into a room and said - from now on, don't expect a paycheck - and don't ask for one. If you are not willing to come in and work hard just to contribute to the team, then we don't want you here. How would that go over?


Comparing marriage to employment misses the long term commitment made by most when we say our marriage vows. An employment contract is solely based on money and performance. To turn you analogy around, this means that if I don't like my wife's performance even if she does put out, then I should be able to say, "Bye Bye."

Most of us are more committed than that. Most marriages have ups and downs.



> As for James - ask him how long his marriage has been sexless and how long he has been completely focused on resolving that issue?


Since we are going to bring my marriage into it, then I will answer the question. Approximately four years. I think I even mentioned it earlier. However, as I stated above, the marriage is not completely sexless. I guess since it has been two months, many would call that sexless. Yet prior to that it has been about once a month. And certain periods have had plenty of sex.

BUT...that is why I can speak from experience. While I don't have the answer that will work for me yet, I know that I have worked through many issues that can be eliminated for me. And due to my research, I have found some things (ie food allergies, med changes, and more) that have actually made my wife's life easier. Odd as it may sound, this alone thus far has made some of that research worthwhile. 

Let's not turn this into an "about me" or "about you" thread. Perhaps you recommend sensual massages as a remedy...maybe five times or so? 



> And if you read his posts elsewhere you will find that he has slowly, slowly watched it eat away at his feelings for his wife like acid.


Actually incorrect. While it does create a resentment about sex, it does not change my feelings and respect for her as a person and wife. As the OP said, and I can say this for me, too, we are best friends and we have great conversations. And yes, we can even talk about sex. 

What my research has led me to discover is that a low libido...especially in women...can be completely separate from the love that she has. Women express themselves emotionally and need and emotional connection to be bonded to their husband. Men tend to need the sexual connection to be bonded to their wives.

If I did not love my wife, then I would not bother trying to determine why she has no libido. If I did not feel that she was my best friend, then I would never have "wasted" four years. If I did not think she loved me, then JamesM would never have existed on marriage boards.



> And he is one of the most patient, understanding, empathetic (yes he has huge empathy for his wife - which is a necessary ability in a healthy marriage) men I know of.


Empathy means understanding another's feelings and does not necessarily mean love. So I can say that it is much more than empathy. It is love that drives me to be certain that every stone has been over turned and every spot uncovered. It is love that keeps me motivated to solving this problem. And it is my deep love for her that commits me to the vow I made 19 years ago. BTW, at least ten to twelves of those years were not classified as sexless. So knowing that we were sexual also drives me.

And yes, having children who mean the world to me keeps me in a marriage that outside of sex is what I desire for my life. 

But thank you for the backhanded compliment. 



> The books he referenced. They are all good and all valid. But if item (2) above is true - meaning your wife doesn't really care that this is making you crazy, the books don't matter because working alone on this is like pushing on a string.


People say many things when angry. Larry mentions how divorce has come up in fights. Does that mean today that his wife wants a divorce? And yes, my wife said she no longer wanted sex a couple of times. Maybe she doesn't. Her last statement was that she wants to have our sex life back. Which do I believe? Even if we have sex every week, then this does not mean she actually likes sex. 

My whole point is not that you (Larry) can make her love sex. My whole point is that determining that all possible reasons for her lack of interest must be ruled out for YOUR own future well being. Divorce may still happen. Leaving may be the end result. But doing so without saying to yourself, I did all that I could, IMO will not be the best for you or her.

Perhaps you do not want to wait for months or years. Perhaps after reading a book or two you will say that it is hopeless. Good. At least you have looked at all possible reasons and decided nothing will change. When I first started, I was very surprised at all that could cause a low libido in a wife.

BTW, since my story came up, you are welcome to PM for any details you want or need that aren't here. The whole four years has not been loveless or sexless. I don't think a stretch for more than two months occurred without sex. And oddly enough, many of the times that we did have sex, it was good. And many times SHE initiated them.


----------



## larry_talbot (Sep 30, 2009)

Thank you for all the replies! I feel bad that it's taken me this long to post again in my own thread, but it's been a busy week at work. I feel like I should give a little more background on our sex life and then go into other details of our marriage.

When we were first together, like most couples, we have sex a lot. 2-3 times a day. And I can say, with confidence, it was the best sex I'd had in my entire life. We both were giving lovers and we clicked in bed. Eventually it went down to once a day and then, after a few months, about once a week and there it stayed for quite awhile. Even when it was once a week, we tried lots of different things and it was exciting. A few years ago, it all seemed to change. My wife did try to get interested for me, but it usually ended with her upset because she could not get into anything. It was frustrating for me too because nothing I did seemed right to hear. It's like a record which gets out of it's groover. We were and, try as I might, we just couldn't get back into it. It's almost like, after years of marriage, I started to have no idea what my wife liked. Instead of feeling comfortable and confident with her, I was at a loss as to what to do We went to counseling at this point. That only lasted 2 sessions before my wife refused to go because she felt the counselor was blaming her for everything. I don't think he was and I was not, but she felt very persecuted. We tried to reconcile things ourselves and talked alot, but it was probably the closest we ever came to divorce. Nothing was really resolved. We just became complacent in the new situation and that's where we are now.

I had intended to go into other issues, but my son is demanding attention


----------



## alytamave (Oct 2, 2009)

May I peep into this discussion as a wife?
JamesM said "Women express themselves emotionally and need and emotional connection to be bonded to their husband. Men tend to need the sexual connection to be bonded to their wives."
This is completely true and becomes a vicious cycle. I've been dealing with this very sex issue for about 6 years now (I've been with my H for 8)
I really do need to feel special to him, feel like he adores me and loves me. The minute I feel like that, I'm turned on like an animal! On normal days where he doesn't make me feel loved/special/appreciated I could care less about sex and actually get disgusted thinking about it. Here's an example. For the past month we've been at that point again of no talking, no intimacy, just yuck homelife. He's been very snippy at me, and again I feel like "where is my husband and howcome I'm so damned lonely?" He's barely talked to me in days, won't listen to a word I'm saying. Last night we watched TV for 2 hours, he sat all the way on the other side of the couch and pampered our puppy. Said nothing to me. Heck, didn't even look at me. Time for bed, and he wants to know if I want "company?" Ughhhh, I think he should know by now because I'm very open with it, that no I do not feel like making love when he's ignored me completely for days. But I also understand that by me being too tired, he feels unloved because he's not able to express his love to me. So it is a never ending cycle which will only get worse with more resentment over time. 

The marriage workshop we went to not long ago stated "fake it til ya make it". Maybe set sex dates, I know that it takes the spontaneity out of things, but you'll know when to expect sex and maybe you'll begin to look forward to making her feel turned on during the day. They do say that foreplay starts first thing in the morning!  I can give the advice, it's just much harder to actually do.  All I'm saying is that I do need to feel loved and appreciated and special, and then all of a sudden that magic button is ready to be pushed.


----------

