# Reconciled after stormy 3+ year separation



## cdbaker

I'm hesitant to return here after a lot of the negativity I saw on my last thread, but I'm not going to over-think this, here goes:

Bite Size recap: I'm 31, my wife is 30, and we've been officially married for 12 years and have a 10 y/o child. After years of maintaining a porn addiction, a non-existent sex life with my wife, and being a generally poor excuse for a husband, she moved out after I caught her deep in an affair, her 2nd in close succession, in early summer 2010. While apart, I worked on myself, while also seeing other women, and my wife went to school while living with a new much older manipulative/controlling lover. About six months after he left the picture (to jail, he apparently had a thing for much, much younger women/girls), my wife and I reconnected and started casually "dating" again to see if we could reconcile. During that time we came within a hair of divorce (literally canceled it the day before the final court hearing I think) and went through all kinds of messy drama. She moved back home about 19 months ago in June of 2013. 

Update: After she had a few months of individual counseling this past fall, she finally opened up to me about a few things in early December (last month) regarding trust issues she has, and her fear regarding being sexual with me. She shared that her fear was that if we became sexual again, that it wouldn't be long before I would escalate things and start pushing us towards having sex with other people or something similar. She didn't want to have her trust broken that way again, and be put in a similar situation of potentially giving into something she didn't want to do in order to please me, while destroying herself emotionally. I understood completely, we talked, and it was a good talk. Afterwards, for the first time in nearly five years, my wife and I had sex.

The way I put that just sounds so childish, like a teenager bragging or something, but thats all it was for now. It wasn't really "making love" it wasn't full of passion, it wasn't wild, it was just sex. For the time being, I'm ok with that. I can't imagine it would have been possible for it to be any more than that considering the circumstances. We needed a "break the ice" experience. Since then we'd had sex about four or five times, including one time when she jumped me in the middle of the night that was quite exciting.

Each experience has still been somewhat awkward, not at all natural for most loving couples I'm sure. But each experience is improving for both of us, culminating in that most recent middle of the night experience, so I'm feeling good about the progress. It might seem strange to some that I'm focusing all on the sex stuff, but honestly, the "sex stuff" is the only real ingredient that has been missing from our marriage since the reconciliation.

I'm certainly not updating now to present us as a "success story" or even a "We did it and so can you!" type of thing. We're still working on it, and nothing is ever 100% certain, so it is what it is. I will say that at the moment, we're fully committed to each other. We just recently merged our previously separated bank accounts together again, and are starting to put money away so that we can think about a house upgrade in a couple of years, so those seem like good signs as well.

Who knows what the future will bring, but for now I thought a few folks here might like an update, so here it is.


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## Tron

CD,

I remember your old thread. You've shown a lot of patience to wait this long...12 months after your self imposed January 2014 deadline. Better late than never I suppose. 

Why didn't she get into IC sooner? Was that the catalyst?

I realize this may be a little early, but I don't hear that you two are really connecting on an emotional level. I understand that she is telling you that she still has trust issues. Everyone on the old thread was speculating that it really may have been an attraction problem. Are you sure that it isn't it?

What does your gut tell you?


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## karole

Are the two of you in marriage counseling? Is your daughter in counseling?


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## Johnconrad

CD,

Where does her fear of having other people in your bed come from?


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## lifeistooshort

Johnconrad said:


> CD,
> 
> Where does her fear of having other people in your bed come from?


He admits to a big porn addiction and was probably pushing for other people in their bed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cdbaker

Tron: Yeah I was trying to keep the post length somewhat shorter. That, and for me "sexual connection" pretty much equates to "emotional connection" anyway. We are definitely connecting more since she decided that she'd reached a point where she could trust me and open up her sexuality again. At least from my perspective, that was the main thing that was missing. She was so afraid of being pressured sexually in any form that she would avoid any kind of contact that could remotely lead me to thinking she might be open to sexual intimacy. Since early December, we've been far more relaxed and comfortable around her, even playful at times, as she has relaxed her guard. We've cuddled for the first time in forever and she's comfortable being naked in front of me. (even just casually, like while changing clothes, looking for a missing bra, etc.) In general, she seems to have reached a point where she's willing to be vulnerable again.

As far as an attraction problem... heck I don't know. She's sworn up and down that this wasn't the problem at all, and I'm inclined to believe her, but who knows. Heck, the last "affair partner", 5'7", 140lbs, bald, and literally twice her age, so it also seems very possible to me that she just isn't very concerned about it.


Karole: No we're not in MC yet. We did meet with an MC back in June (finally) but after talking to her for a while, he advised her to seek out a recommended IC instead for a while because he felt that she had some issues going on that would prevent any progress with MC anyway. She's been seeing that IC bi-weekly since July or so, and still is. Perhaps we'll resume MC sometime in the future, which I am certainly open to.


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## cdbaker

Johnconrad: Yeah, you'd have to have read my old thread to get that, but in the midst of my porn mess, and desperation of there being absolutely zero sexual activity between my wife and I, I had the bright idea that maybe I just needed to find something kinky enough to jump-start her libido. After trying a few different things, I ended up sharing her with a buddy of mine a few times. It's a long story, but for a while she was into it, but her conscience was really getting to her and eventually she felt extremely betrayed and used by the whole mess. (understandably) So she's been afraid that, if we restart our sex life, that I might inevitably try to guide us down a path that she's not comfortable with again.


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## cdbaker

Lately I have been debating with myself on whether or not I should suggest to my wife that she join TAM and offer her thoughts on our reconciliation or even our stormy path. I keep going back and forth.

Pro's: Just as I think my story has been pretty incredible (both in a good and bad sense) as far as how we have recovered from what our therapist described as the "worst case" I've ever seen in marriage counseling," I know her story would be just as incredible. I imagine her experience has put her in a good position to offer thoughts and/or support to the few other women here who are currently or will eventually go through some similar experiences. Plus, I know very well that she is the type that finds enormous personal fulfillment in helping or simply supporting others in their time of need. For starters, she is a registered nurse so that comes naturally, but over the years she has occasionally been able to offer counsel/support for young pregnant teenage girls unsure of how to move forward and worried about their future.

Con's: Over the years I have written a lot, both about the intricacy's of our story, and commenting/discussing others as well. So certainly I feel concerned about what she might think/feel when she would inevitably decide to read my main thread and see all of my personal thoughts, fears, mistakes, shameful or embarassing failures, the labels I may have assigned to her or others, even potential divorce plans, etc. I've had this fear that the day she logs into TAM, that I'll come home from work that night (she works overnights, so she'd likely be online during the day when I'm at work) and find her angry as hell at me for any number of possible reasons, perhaps the most likely reason being that she might not like that I've "aired our dirty laundry" so publicly. Heck I don't think I could even blame her for that, as I have effectively done exactly that.

I suppose I have always viewed TAM as a (only) semi-anonymous public diary about a focused topic (marriage/relationships) that is also purpose-built for public feedback/discourse. I've never used her name, or my name, or any other names for instance. I do know however that I deleted my earliest very first thread after I shared the first post, a very long (naturally) introduction to our story, with a pastor/counselor that I'm friends with and he advised that I delete it immediately. I'm not sure if he really understood what it's purpose was or what this forum is meant for though, so I don't know. (While writing this however, I did decide to just now write a message to our marriage counselor, who is also a family friend now, to ask his thoughts on sites/forums like this)


So anyhow, I'm not sure. I'm still thinking about it. I suppose another alternative is that I could delete my main story thread if need be, but I'd hate to do that. I'm certainly embarrassed by a lot of what is in there, similar to how I might feel about a diary, but also like a diary, I'd hate to throw it away and I think it could potentially be useful to others. Even if it were possible, I'd also hate to intentionally be able to block that thread from my wife, as that would effectively be deception on my part. I will say however that I wish it were possible to change my public username to something that isn't related to my real identity on other sites that could ultimately lead someone to figuring out who I am in real life. Does anyone know if that is possible?

Anyways... I'm open to thoughts/suggestions on this idea. Is anyone aware of any other husband/wife duo's on this forum where initially only one of them were on TAM posting about their relationship before the other joined later?


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## jld

I read a testimony once of a woman who had been involved in prostitution. I don't know if her husband had been a pimp or into prostitution himself, but they were both into drugs heavy when they met. Would you believe they pulled themselves out of it together and ended up having several children?

I can't remember what got them started; maybe it was religion? For sure they wanted to be done with that lifestyle.

I think it would be great if your wife would come here. But even if she did not, you are inspiring people by sharing your recovery.


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## cdbaker

Well, we're not "all better" yet, we're still in process. Then again, when is anyone not "in process?"


Another thought that your post brought to mind. If she were a regular visitor of TAM, I would probably struggle to be as honest as possible going forward, knowing that she would likely be reading what I have to say. It might be tough to talk about an ongoing issue between her and I and express concern, ask for advice, or otherwise show weakness. Or if I'm struggling with something on my own, I bet it would be really difficult to discuss here for thoughts/advice.

Darn, I wish there were a way to remove access to certain posts/threads from certain individuals, kind of like Facebook. Oh well, I'll keep thinking about it.


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## SecondTime'Round

I'm not privy to your past; I just "know" you from your responses here so far since I recently joined. I really like your logic and the way you think in the responses you've provided to me, and to others that I have read. They have been very helpful in my current situation.

That has nothing to do with this thread, but wanted to say it .

I would not invite your wife here. You'll have to edit too much and then be constantly afraid of starting a fight about something you previously said. Just my opinion.


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## Tron

cdbaker said:


> Well, we're not "all better" yet, we're still in process. Then again, when is anyone not "in process?"
> 
> 
> Another thought that your post brought to mind. If she were a regular visitor of TAM, I would probably struggle to be as honest as possible going forward, knowing that she would likely be reading what I have to say. It might be tough to talk about an ongoing issue between her and I and express concern, ask for advice, or otherwise show weakness. Or if I'm struggling with something on my own, I bet it would be really difficult to discuss here for thoughts/advice.
> 
> Darn, I wish there were a way to remove access to certain posts/threads from certain individuals, kind of like Facebook. Oh well, I'll keep thinking about it.


It works for some couples. And doesn't work for others. My W reads everything I write here. That can be good and bad. It really is a mixed bag. 

Whether it is good or bad I leave up to you to decide, but before you get her on board I have a couple of questions for you. How do you think she would feel about you sharing your story with a thousand strangers on the internet? 

What happens when her perspective and yours don't match up in her mind. Or when you minimize or have minimized what she feels are your faults and your responsibility in the demise of your marriage?

I think that after careful consideration, you will find that a lot of your older posts will need to be deleted...and you will have to be a lot more careful about what you say. My 2 cents.


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## turnera

First, many many many women feel utterly used for sex. It is a BIG BIG thing for many of us. It will take a long time for her to ever feel safe again with you. Especially after handing her off to other men. And one of the most common complaints I see from women is this: "Can't we just cuddle, hug, hold hands, even touch each other's legs, without it automatically turning into sex?" Think about it.

Second, if you want this to succeed, you will need 100% honesty and 100% transparency. Having her come here is a good first step toward that. I'm too chicken to do it, but I often wish my H would read what I write just he'd know the truth.

If she were to come here, we could get BOTH of you on the right path. Will it be hard? Obviously. Would it be beneficial? Well, if it's not, then you two shouldn't have gotten back together.


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## ConanHub

Here's to both your health! I remember well your other thread and, to be honest, there were s lot of negative things in both of you. I merely commented and had, very valid, concerns.

I am glad you two are communicating and have started having sex. I hope you both fully heal from the damage you both caused.

I am very glad and hope the best for your family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron

turnera said:


> First, many many many women feel utterly used for sex. It is a BIG BIG thing for many of us. It will take a long time for her to ever feel safe again with you. Especially after handing her off to other men. And one of the most common complaints I see from women is this: "Can't we just cuddle, hug, hold hands, even touch each other's legs, without it automatically turning into sex?" Think about it.
> 
> Second, if you want this to succeed, you will need 100% honesty and 100% transparency. Having her come here is a good first step toward that. I'm too chicken to do it, but I often wish my H would read what I write just he'd know the truth.
> 
> If she were to come here, we could get BOTH of you on the right path. Will it be hard? Obviously. Would it be beneficial? Well, if it's not, then you two shouldn't have gotten back together.


Just curious, but why are you too chicken?

You're normally quite outspoken about things. What's up with that?


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## turnera

Tron, it's how I was raised and further treatment from picking overbearing men solidified it in me. The reason I AM so outspoken is that I've spent nearly 60 years afraid and I want to help as many people as I can see that they can beat those fears and be whole, healthy, happy people and not waste their lives like I did. If I'd had someone pushing me in my teens or 20s or 30s, my whole life would have been different.


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## 2ntnuf

cdbaker,

I don't read much emotion in your posts about your wife. I am assuming you are cautiously optimistic. I could be wrong. Do you feel any love for her? Do you think you are in love with her? How did dating other women affect your feelings toward your wife?


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## vellocet

turnera said:


> First, many many many women feel utterly used for sex. It is a BIG BIG thing for many of us. It will take a long time for her to ever feel safe again with you. *Especially after handing her off to other men*.


Perhaps I missed it, but where did he do that?


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## turnera

vellocet said:


> Perhaps I missed it, but where did he do that?


That is how I read this:


> She shared that her fear was that if we became sexual again, that it wouldn't be long before I would escalate things and start pushing us towards having sex with other people or something similar. She didn't want to have her trust broken that way again, and be put in a similar situation of potentially giving into something she didn't want to do in order to please me, while destroying herself emotionally.


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## cdbaker

SecondTime'Round said:


> I'm not privy to your past; I just "know" you from your responses here so far since I recently joined. I really like your logic and the way you think in the responses you've provided to me, and to others that I have read. They have been very helpful in my current situation.
> 
> That has nothing to do with this thread, but wanted to say it .
> 
> I would not invite your wife here. You'll have to edit too much and then be constantly afraid of starting a fight about something you previously said. Just my opinion.


Thanks, I appreciate the compliment.

You could certainly be right about potential problems erupting from my previous posts. Part of me would like to think that she could view that stuff as being purely in the past. Misc. thoughts that I had driven by the various fears and concerns of a time when we were both making mistakes and driven by external factors that aren't relevant now. Kind of like if I were to find a love letter written by her to a former affair partner, but the letter was written four years ago in the midst of the affair. It might make me uncomfortable to read those words, but I know I could view it within the context of what was happening at the time, which we have already gotten past and I have forgiven her for. I'd like to think she could do the same buuut... I wouldn't be surprised if a woman wasn't quite as capable of separating that out.



Tron said:


> Whether it is good or bad I leave up to you to decide, but before you get her on board I have a couple of questions for you. How do you think she would feel about you sharing your story with a thousand strangers on the internet?
> 
> What happens when her perspective and yours don't match up in her mind. Or when you minimize or have minimized what she feels are your faults and your responsibility in the demise of your marriage?
> 
> I think that after careful consideration, you will find that a lot of your older posts will need to be deleted...and you will have to be a lot more careful about what you say. My 2 cents.


Great questions. I'll preface by saying that she does know about TAM, in that she knows I often visit a web forum full of people who discuss and seek advice regarding their marriage issues/concerns/questions, but I don't think she specifically knows the url/address or the name. She has had lots of opportunities to ask, and I would have told her without hesitation, but she never seemed interested. She hasn't indicated that she's not happy about me presenting (my version of) our story, and the fact this site is mostly anonymous probably helps. 

In fact, the few times it's come up in the past (not recently at all, probably all 1-3 years ago), she's reacted with a look of suspicion and/or distrust. Two reasons, I think. First, I think she was suspicious of any kind of advice I would get from sharing our story from my naturally biased perspective. Concerned that any such advice or discourse here would be tained and meaningless, and possibly lead me to false conclusions. Given my past history of easily getting a "big head" of making people believe I'm wonderful and saintly, often at her expense, I can completely understand that suspicion. Back then, she probably figured I was painting her as some kind of heartless cheating ***** and I was the poor husband fighting to save her. Second, because she knew how crappy of a husband I had been for so long, I think she believe that I had absolutely no business offering thoughts/advice/suggestions to others. Again, that makes a lot of sense to me.

What happens when our perspectives don't align? As far as the past, as I mentioned above to SecondTime, I'd like to think that our likely different perspectives could be understood by the context of what was taking place while they happened. As far as possible present differences, I try to be as honest as possible, and I recognize I can be wrong, so hopefully she wouldn't judge me too much if she feels my view is incorrect, or could offer her own counter-view.

Minimizing faults, errors, failings, etc. could be a huge potential concern, but honestly I have always tried to be very serious and forthright when it comes to my own issues. If anything, I feel like I have tried to be somewhat overly harsh on myself because I don't even want to allow myself to believe that any of them "aren't a big deal" or even that I may be "all better" now. I could always be wrong, but I feel like she could see what I've said about myself and agree I've been fair/correct. As for her issues I feel like I've always presented her pretty fairly as well, trying to only mention the facts, and then any further analysis being purely based on my own best guesses?


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## cdbaker

turnera said:


> First, many many many women feel utterly used for sex. It is a BIG BIG thing for many of us. It will take a long time for her to ever feel safe again with you. Especially after handing her off to other men. And one of the most common complaints I see from women is this: "Can't we just cuddle, hug, hold hands, even touch each other's legs, without it automatically turning into sex?" Think about it.
> 
> Second, if you want this to succeed, you will need 100% honesty and 100% transparency. Having her come here is a good first step toward that. I'm too chicken to do it, but I often wish my H would read what I write just he'd know the truth.
> 
> If she were to come here, we could get BOTH of you on the right path. Will it be hard? Obviously. Would it be beneficial? Well, if it's not, then you two shouldn't have gotten back together.


I know with certainty that she felt very used for sex, and believe me, I know how long that can take to heal. I also definitely recognize how our particular circumstances made that feeling of being used far worse than typical troubled marriages with sex/trust issues. While our sexual relationship is finally, slowly recovering, we're still not where we should be. 

As far as the common complaint example you provided like "Can't we just cuddle... without it turning to sex", I will say that I feel that hasn't been an issue for us. For starters, I never remotely pushed for sex while we were separated. I knew that was an impossibility. Second, when we did officially start the reconciliation process, we immediately had a talk where I explained that I knew that our trust was still not fully restored, and she was fearful of opening herself up to me sexually again. I told her that we can't really reconnect if she can't allow herself to be vulnerable to me in some form, so I thought the best way for her to be able to slowly open up to me reconnect is if I commit to her that I will in absolutely no way ask for, push for, hint at, etc. sex in any way. I knew she would feel exactly as you say, afraid to kiss, cuddle, hug, etc., anything physical, worried that I might misinterpret it or just try to push it further. So no occasional reaching for her tush during a hug, no getting "handsy" during a cuddle, no turning a long kiss into a make-out, etc. In fact, even if I felt like she was "giving me signs" that she might be open to more, I wouldn't respond unless she specifically verbally stated what she wanted. This would be for a period of about a year, until the end of 2013 at least.

I thought that would help her feel more comfortable and willing to reconnect with me without fear. Honestly if my offer did more good than harm or vice versa. It sure felt like she took that offer not as a loving and humble gesture recognizing/respecting her needs and feelings, but as an excuse to not have to commit any effort to the reconciliation without any consequences. I think she would agree that I kept my word about not ever allowing her to feel pressured for sex, but I know she also made very little effort, if any, towards physically reconnecting with me during that time, (despite knowing how important that is to the reconciliation and to me in particular as my love language) or towards starting MC, etc.

I agree about the 100% honesty and 100% transparency. While certainly there is a part of me that is somewhat afraid of how she might respond if she saw everything I've thought, said, considered or actually done during the past 5ish years, I've always been willing to deal with that, if it came to it. Like I said, I've mentioned this forum before and how I've discussed our story. If she was intrigued and wanted to know more or come review it, she could have asked at anytime and I would have told her without hesitation. So it's not a question of honesty/transparency, it's more a question now of is this a good idea to volunteer?

As for the benefits, yes, precisely. I think we could both benefit individually and as a couple, AND I do think she could be a helpful asset for others here as well. It's just a question of whether the risk is worth it.


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## 2ntnuf

And they think some guy that rubbed their back at the bar and sat with them and listened to one side of a story cares more about them as a person than they do about getting them in bed? Come on...


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## cdbaker

2ntnuf said:


> cdbaker,
> 
> I don't read much emotion in your posts about your wife. I am assuming you are cautiously optimistic. I could be wrong. Do you feel any love for her? Do you think you are in love with her? How did dating other women affect your feelings toward your wife?


Yes, it's a lot of cautious optimism. To answer your questions, yes I know that I absolutely love my wife. I think she's a wonderful person, capable of incredible kindness, compassion, generosity, and love. I also find her stunningly beautiful, and always have. In my view, she is unquestionably a 10. Certainly she has faults, as does anyone, and she has hurt and betrayed me in the past just as I have done the same to her, so that is why I am cautiously optimistic and somewhat leery of being too trusting too quickly. I think that's natural though.

Oddly I was just having a conversation last night with my brother-in-law about what I feel like I learned from dating other women. I feel like I learned that they come in all shapes, sizes, attitudes, talents, qualities (and negatives), etc. During our separation, I probably went out on 50+ dates with different women, and out of that number, I found myself only wanting to see maybe 6 or 7 of them a second time, and of that number, there were only 3 that I felt I might be interested in a relationship with. In any case, I think I could have had happy long term relationships with a handful of them, but even with the few I did have relationships with, with the benefit of experience and hindsight, I could see little issues that could become larger down the road. I decided there is no "easy" relationship/marriage, that all of them take work, all of them will have unique challenges based on her unique characteristics and how they mesh with mine.

I found that there certainly are other good "prospects" out there, that my wife isn't literally my only hope for marital happiness. So I feel like I came to realize that if my marriage with my wife ended up being 100% hopeless, salvageable, that I could certainly move on and find someone else to be happy with. But I also decided that a potential future relationship/2nd marriage to someone else will (after the honeymoon period wears off) still require a ton of effort, have it's up's and downs, face major challenges and heartache at times, etc. So either way, whether I found that my marriage was salvageable and we successfully rebuilt it from the ground up, or found that reconciliation wasn't an option and moved on in search of wife #2, both options would take an enormous amount of work and effort, and both could produce long term happiness if we're both committed. With my wife however, I already knew I loved her, I didn't want anyone else unless my wife ultimately determined that she didn't want me, we had our child together, known each other for 15+ years, etc. I'm sure I probably could come to love someone else just as much, I'm not disillusioned about that, but I loved my wife and she was essentially my 1st choice from the get-go, by a long shot.



vellocet said:


> Perhaps I missed it, but where did he do that?


Turnera already pointed it out, but in short, during our darkest days in the last year or two before our marriage fell apart, this did happen. Among the other ways I failed us, in my desperation to have any kind of sex life with my wife, I tried guiding us towards having her sleep with someone else. I genuinely, idiotically, thought that maybe a little bit of taboo/naughty fun might remind her how fun sex can be, and could jumpstart our sex life. Plus, in the interest of honesty, my porn addiction through that time had led me to being quite turned on by the prospect of my wife hooking up in front of me. It's something I'm quite ashamed of, and disgusted by now. She went along with it out of a feeling of guilt, feeling responsible for our poor sex life (a feeling I encouraged at the time, basically as subconscious manipulation) and while she couldn't help but enjoy it in the moment, she would feel intensely negative feelings afterwards. Shame, more guilt, feelings of betrayal (my having "given away" her sex and virtue to another man, which I had obviously sworn to treasure myself, for a few cheap thrills.), and very used. Obviously I didn't realize any of that at the time, I certainly loved her very much even then, I was just a fool and wasn't considerate of how destructive my actions could be.


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## 2ntnuf

Thank you. That was really good to read. You have a great chance if your wife wants it as much as you. Seems like this is your best first choice. The cautious optimism is fantastic, until you get the same commitment from her and there is some forward progress. I know you will have done all you are capable of, no matter how this turns out. I really do wish you the very best.


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## vellocet

cdbaker said:


> Turnera already pointed it out, but in short, during our darkest days in the last year or two before our marriage fell apart, this did happen. Among the other ways I failed us, in my desperation to have any kind of sex life with my wife, I tried guiding us towards having her sleep with someone else.


:slap:

Ok, but here is the part I don't get.



> It will take a long time for her to ever feel safe again with you. Especially after handing her off to other men.


So you nudged her to sleep with other men to spice things up. She partakes. And its HER that will take a long time to feel safe? Did she sleep with other men against her will, or willingly and enjoyed it?

I can see her not feeling safe if you pushed it and she said no and was horrified by the idea. But if she dove right in and liked it, then no. She could have said no, I'm assuming she did not?


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## cdbaker

vellocet said:


> So you nudged her to sleep with other men to spice things up. She partakes. And its HER that will take a long time to feel safe? Did she sleep with other men against her will, or willingly and enjoyed it?
> 
> I can see her not feeling safe if you pushed it and she said no and was horrified by the idea. But if she dove right in and liked it, then no. She could have said no, I'm assuming she did not?


Well, I'll preface by saying this is now a very, very old issue that we're pretty far past by now. 

Initially she was absolutely opposed. Hurt even. I'd drop it quickly, but over time she saw I was still kind of into it, and due to a number of factors she eventually gave in to it one drunken night with a friend of mine and me there in the room as well. She enjoyed it in that moment, having the undivided attention and desires of two men simultaneously that is, but she was definitely pushed into it and she absolutely regretted it and felt awful afterwards. As I mentioned, ashamed, more guilt, feeling I'd betrayed her, so readily given away her virtue, etc. Yes I understand that drunk or not, pushed or not, she did choose to do it and she accepts that responsibility, but I still know that I'm by far more responsible for the whole thing having transpired, for having manipulated her into doing something she clearly didn't want to do, and betrayed my commitment to honoring and protecting her (emotionally, her heart, etc.)

So she certainly didn't dive right in, heck she didn't even express anger or blame towards me right away either. She was just... for lack of a better word, filled with sorrow, feeling used. She only did it because she knew I wanted it and she hated that her libido prevented us from having a healthy sex life so she kind of felt like she owed me. I discuss this a lot in our original thread, but again at this point we are way past this episode as far as having forgiven each other and healing.


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## Chaparral

So how did her two affairs come about and the timeline?


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## turnera

vellocet said:


> So you nudged her to sleep with other men to spice things up. She partakes. And its HER that will take a long time to feel safe? Did she sleep with other men against her will, or willingly and enjoyed it?


Please just try to accept that, as a man, you will never understand a woman's feelings about sex. Ok? It's something we know men want from us, from about age 12. It's something we feel pressured about, judged about, punished about, criticized about, if we aren't 'enough' for the man. Even if we like it just as much, we are always 'tuned in' to whether we're being seen as a piece of meat. So yeah, we do a lot of things we don't feel comfortable about, things that affect our self worth, our self image, and that color our perception of our spouse. Half of the 'female' books in self care shelves are about being pawed, grabbed, flashed, pressured, about sex and wondering what we can do to be seen as an equal and not just a, well, hole, for the man.

Even when women have affairs, they usually are seeking the emotional connection and giving up the sex just to get the man to give the emotion.

So sure, maybe she agreed. But unless she was the one pushing for it in the first place, it's a good bet she wasn't nearly as enthusiastic as he was and did it just to make him happy. 

And that is exactly what baker said. 

For once, just try to believe that all women aren't hookers and ****s and users...


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## cdbaker

Chaparral said:


> So how did her two affairs come about and the timeline?


Chaparral, for a (slightly) condensed version of our story, check out my initial post here: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/reconciliation/71987-after-3-year-separation.html


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## vellocet

turnera said:


> Please just try to accept that, as a man, you will never understand a woman's feelings about sex. Ok?


Please understand that I was asking a question to find out how his wife dealt with his request and not assuming to know a woman's feelings about sex 

Ok?



> For once, just try to believe that all women aren't hookers and ****s and users...


Never once have I ever done that. So you can just dispense with the drama.


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## turnera

Really? Every response you've given about any female cheater since I've been here has been ditch 'em, they'll just do it again, it's not worth it, you'll never be able to trust her, she must have liked it or she wouldn't have done it...


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## vellocet

turnera said:


> Really? Every response you've given about any female cheater since I've been here has been ditch 'em


Precisely. That's my opinion, same as it is for male cheaters.

But if someone is seeing remorse and wants to give it a try, I advise, then, based on the situation.




> they'll just do it again, it's not worth it, you'll never be able to trust her


Well, that may be a bit of a generalization, but yes, in general that's how I feel.

But that in no way correlates with your snide comment of "*For once, just try to believe that all women aren't hookers and ****s and users...* "

But nice try anyway.





> she must have liked it or she wouldn't have done it...


Oh, gotcha. Because as we all know, people cheat because they absolutely do NOT want to. :rofl: 

Ok, this has been derailed enough.


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## cdbaker

vellocet said:


> Oh, gotcha. Because as we all know, people cheat because they absolutely do NOT want to. :rofl:


Well, to clarify, this part of the story wasn't about her cheating, this was about her ultimately, begrudgingly agreeing to have sex with a buddy of mine after I pushed her to do so over a period of time. Some might feel otherwise, but I would not call permissible sex with a 3rd party cheating or an affair, like threesomes or swinging. Yes she did absolutely cheat on me later on down the road, she had two affairs but those were entirely different situations and she has long accepted the responsibility for those decisions.


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## FormerVictim

cdbaker said:


> Well, to clarify, this part of the story wasn't about her cheating, this was about her ultimately, begrudgingly agreeing to have sex with a buddy of mine after I pushed her to do so over a period of time. Some might feel otherwise, but I would not call permissible sex with a 3rd party cheating or an affair, like threesomes or swinging. Yes she did absolutely cheat on me later on down the road, she had two affairs but those were entirely different situations and she has long accepted the responsibility for those decisions.


It's an interesting dynamic. You opened her up to it and gave permission for her to bang him.

You don't consider it cheating - and yet you're carrying as much guilt about it as she. I always tell people this sort of thing is a Pandora's Box. My wife is a childhood abuse victim.

At times earlier in our marriage, she invited me to pick out a friend (either male of female) and try it out. I thought about the images she would see under such circumstances and what she may experience. While I admit, the idea was somewhat intriguing, I looked at her and said, "I have no desire to share those moments with anyone but you".


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## vellocet

cdbaker said:


> Well, to clarify, this part of the story wasn't about her cheating, this was about her ultimately, begrudgingly agreeing to have sex with a buddy of mine after I pushed her to do so over a period of time.


No, I get that. I was replying to T's flippant remarks.

But it also was said in this thread that you were on the path to pushing her into the arms of other men again, when you clearly are not doing what you did the last time this happened.


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## cdbaker

vellocet said:


> No, I get that. I was replying to T's flippant remarks.
> 
> But it also was said in this thread that you were on the path to pushing her into the arms of other men again, when you clearly are not doing what you did the last time this happened.


I think one of us have a misunderstanding here... (it may very well be me) I certainly haven't meant to indicate that I am pushing her towards such a thing now, and haven't done so since 2009ish when our marriage started falling apart. Who said I was on that path again?


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## vellocet

cdbaker said:


> I think one of us have a misunderstanding here... (it may very well be me) I certainly haven't meant to indicate that I am pushing her towards such a thing now, and haven't done so since 2009ish when our marriage started falling apart.


I know you aren't.




> Who said I was on that path again?


Actually that is my mistake. It was about your wife trusting you again "Especially after handing her off to other men"


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## Oblivious2678

Cdbaker,

I finally had a chance to check and follow up on how you are doing (sorry it's been so long) and I am very happy to see how far you have come! You have come a long way with tremendous patience. You have broken down a major wall with your wife and I couldn't help but smile from ear to ear while reading it.

However, as you know, your work is not done. Continue on the path. Continue with that patience you possess. Your wife needed a lot of time to heal as did you. Keep swimming my friend and I wish you continued success with reconciling.


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## cdbaker

It's been a long while, so I thought I would share an update.

I think when I last left off, I shared that our sexual relationship had finally resumed after a the 3-year separation, and nearly two years of a "reconciliation" period, including about 18 months of that time actually living together again. It was slow and awkward at first (not passionate or exciting) which I think sort of makes sense given the circumstances. That was in December. From there, the frequency and the openness seemed to grow quite a bit into the new year. A bit of a roller coaster before that, where in the fall of 2012 I was preparing to file for divorce, then got laid off on the exact day that my lawyer was going to file the papers so I quickly told her not to (I absolutely believe that was a God intervention), then my wife and I reconnecting over a period of about 8 or 9 months to her moving back in, then fearing that progress wasn't being made after over a year of the sexual relationship not returning and fearing where we were headed from there, until she got back into therapy.

So in December, she made the decision that she could trust me again, could be vulnerable with me again, and everything really improved quickly from there. Months later in the late spring, we decided that we wanted to have another child (or two, eventually) because we aren't getting any younger and both knew we wanted more children at some point anyway, so we started trying, and in late May we discovered that we are expecting. So that's our great news, we're having a baby girl in February! (Our daughter, who will turn 12 in March, is especially excited)

These days, my wife and I agree that our sex life is better and stronger than it's ever been. We're far more comfortable with each other, we're having really "high quality" sex, we communicate WAY more than we ever have, etc. We're just happier than we've ever been, and we're aware of how much work and effort we have to continue to put into it in order to maintain that, and mature enough to know that there will still always be peaks and valleys.

So I hesitate to say, "Hey, we've made it, we're reconciled. We're a success story" because you know, anything can change, but I will say that I am absolutely stunned by the turnaround that we've experienced, and absolutely never expected this. We certainly feel blessed, knowing how close we came to walking away (many times) and how much we've recovered from and how rare it is for this to happen. We're just excited about moving forward together, and I thought I would share this update for anyone who is still curious (it's been almost six years since the marriage first unraveled and probably five or more years since I first started sharing here on TAM if memory serves) and maybe to serve as an inspiration for others.

Many thanks to everyone here on TAM.


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## bandit.45

God news about the baby! '


As for your future together, I only have one word: BOUNDARIES. 

Set them and enforce them... on both sides. No more porn for you, no more cheating for her.


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## cdbaker

Agreed. I recommend the book, "Boundaries in Marriage."


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## Tron

What a refreshing update CD. Your patience and efforts to repair the marriage and move forward in a healthy way are commendable. 

And congratulations to you and your W on the new baby. 

God bless you.


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## MAJDEATH

Big Congrats to a couple that figured it out, at least for the time being. As others have said, reconciliation shouldn't be rushed, in order to make sure it is both genuine and lasting.


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