# I can't fix my wife's past abuse - the end is near



## mountain_minds

I'm at my wits end. And it's complicated, per usual.

My wife and I have been married for 6 years, but together before that for 3 - so for 9 years total we've been a relationship.
She's 47 I'm 39.

No children, just dogs.

I think I've hit the end for what I can do and tolerate. And I'm burnt out. I'm not proud of my behavior - but I think it only demonstrates I am human.

My wife is a survivor of sexual abuse in her childhood. She was abused for several years when she was around 8 by her older teenage brother. 
I had known about this abuse the first day we were in bed together -after we made love, she told me she was abused by her brother. And of course, I didnt' know what to say or do, but to comfort her. And just listen.
We started to date. She was good for me. She got me out of some bad life habits- she was into the outdoors and loved her dogs. She always seemed to have a lot going on for her. A very type A style woman - it seemed to me. Sweet, but yet all business. She was fiery, for some reason I liked that. But to me she was sweet. So I figured I must have been special. I always found her sexy - and though we worked together for awhile, we never dated. Then when she found another job and I was out of another relationship - we dated. And it just led from there.

At first it was great. She seemed to have so much going for her.
But as time drew on - she would occasionally totally flip out and get very mad or emotional over little, stupid things. I know at work she was domineering and usually struggling for power - but I figured that was part of her personality - she was a business woman. She was not the sort that caught the flies with honey - she ran you through with the sword.

I would blow off her fits of anger as her being different than I - though I would take some offense to it. My father was a pretty angry man - so I have less tolerance for dealing with kind of stuff...

Intimacy was a problem. She wasn't a very sexual person without alcohol. But I could tell she had a hard time connecting with me that way. I felt like I basically initiated every sexual encounter - unless of course she was drinking. Kissing was not really her thing (unless drinking) and she was pretty rigid about when and how she wanted sex etc. I never felt like unless she was altered that she was really enjoying it. She sort of did it for me. 
At first I wasn't sure what to think of it. I was a fairly sexual person and thought maybe since my libido was so high, that she just sort of normalized me. And since we were friends and had other things in our lives, I sort of let that part slide - thinking that it might get better as time went on.
But it didn't

As time went on - we still had a hard time connecting intimately. And yes, I would talk with her about it. And usually I was hurt over it and told her so. It would end usually with a giant argument, and her getting very emotional and not saying a thing to talk with me. It was odd. We could usually talk about everything else...
The next morning she would act like nothing happened. 

We decided to get married - based on her desire to have kids - and I told her the only way I'd do that is if we were married. And I figured, if I just stayed a good man - took care of her that she would eventually take are of me....
So, after we wed - we talked about kids. It's then she told me that she didn't think she could bring up a kid in this world... I was sort of indifferent. I could go either way - but did feel a bit manipulated that one day she's emotionally crying over where our relationship was going.. and then after she got her way, backed out on what she said she wanted.

Our honeymoon was abysmal. I just wanted to romance and dine and have fun with my new wife.... and just be in LOVE. But she seemed so perturbed and uncomfortable. We made love 2 or 3 times. maybe. the last after I begged her. Awesome.

She switched to several new jobs. Most the time she was forced out because of how she treated people. She was too hard to please and be around. Most issues it seemed were never her fault - they were always someone else's. Very black and white stuff. No room for grey.

I was always there to support the fall. Listen about how she was wronged. And just take care of her. I worked from home - so i was sort of always the domestic one. I kept it all running. Cooked her meals, took care of our dogs... house, etc.

I would complain about our sex life - but she would say if I loved her I'd love her no matter what. That we were different and I would just have to make do.

So of course, I began to feel pretty used. I began to feel like it was my mission to prop this woman up - because I'm such a nice guy and caring husband. But it felt like she had no idea what i needed or what I wanted.. and If I did say something she took immediate offense that she wasn't good enough. It was very hard to talk about that stuff.

I began to notice she was starting to drive all of her friends off.. because of her domineering personalty. If someone wronged her, they were immediately cast out. For the littlest thing - there was no smoothing it over. 

I felt like I was the ONLY thing in her life. That she never let herself out to enjoy life with her girlfriends... or the like. She had a few people she called friends, but they were that only superficial ones.

At first in our relationship, she seemed to be secure in everything.
Then later, she seemed so insecure about her body (she did gain some weight, but I never though less of her, still found her beautiful) and though I knew she was always a bit depressed, it seemed to get worse.
Sometimes it seems she only liked the things I liked (music, etc) but had a hard time picked what she liked. And no, not because I domineered her... she just sort of mirrored me.

At one point, I asked her if she could see an IC - because I thought she needed to talk about what was going on with sex - I just didnt' think it was healthy. And she turned around and yelled, "Well, I supposed you want to know I was raped too!"

Ooook.

She later told me she forgot that she told me about her brother abusing her. Which I found really odd.

I started to burn out. I felt like I was trying to be everything for this woman, but she seem chronically unhappy. Just a glass 1/2 empty sort. There was always a person to be mad at. There always seemed to be some huge drama at work. 
No matter what I said - or the space I gave her for sex - and not pressure her, it seemed it really didn't get better. I was frustrated. And no amount of discussion could help. Sometimes, the littlest things became the biggest deals. 

So, I began to road bike a lot on my own. I hiked a lot with our dogs solo - as she was working later and later. It seemed her work was the thing that mattered most to her. And despite me telling her to change things - take time for herself.... working was what she felt driven to do.

I'd make supper and she'd miss it. 
And by this point, sex was just a perfunctory act. If she was drinking it could be good - but I hated having to alter my wife for real connecting sex.

I started to care less. Self served a lot more. She didnt' seem phased.

But yet, she was still unhappy with life. There was always someone - or something making her unhappy. And I just couldn't reach her. But her one solace was burying herself in work.

Sure we'd get out for vacations - but like our honeymoon it was hard to connect no matter how much space I gave her or any romantic gesture I provided. She was uncomfortable with intimacy.

So. Long story short. I started to have an emotional affair with a mutual friend. We would basically chat and type all the time to each other. We even went backpacking together -but strictly as friends (solo, no wife) But, it was what it was. It was a connection with someone that wanted me in their life and like a starving man to a dinner bell i was lured by it. 
It felt great.
I wanted this same connection with my wife... but knew it wouldn't be.
I felt guilty. Despite how nice it was to feel appreciated. But eventually.... I knew all the things I was feeling for the OW was because of what I missing in my wife. 

There was flirting, but it wasn't terribly sexual. But I knew it was more than friendship.

So. After feeling the guilt of this - and before it got physical, I demanded to my wife that we see a MC
I laid out to her how unhappy I was. That I needed more than I was getting. She was pushing me away. And that she had some intimacy issues... that I was enabling all this time. And that I wanted her to figure out her abuse, because it was wrecking us.
And I disclosed my AE. I told her who it was and that it was the catylist to figure things out.
I told her I was hurt for a lot of years of taking care of her, but it seemed to never go the other way. She felt I should love her unconditionally - and that I wasn't doing that. I felt like I was in a no-win situation. No matter what I tried.

Of course, the focus in the MC was my EA. But not what led things that way.. and certainly not what might be eating her.

She just didn't seem to take is seriously. And blamed me for all the issues.... when it felt like all i did was accommodate her for YEARS.

So, one day, when she bowed out of a counselling session - I told her I was done. I was ending the relationship... Something was missing for me - and I wasn't going to sit by anymore.

One thing I might add, is that 10 years ago i lost my brother to a horrific accident in front of my very eyes. I know how short life is. And I just figured what the hell am I doing with a person who refuses to try with me.

So. I moved out for a week. I couch surfed. I stayed with friends. I did hook up with the woman I had an AE with.

Then, a week later, I started to feel guilt of the highest order -esp after seeing my wife when I picked up our dogs or whatever. 

I decided that I needed to tell her one last time how I felt about her. I still cared for her. And that it wasn't easy to let her go.
I am a caretaker sort, so leaving was potentially the hardest thing I've done, besides witness my brother's death.

So, I told her all that happened with my affair during the separation. I told her I wanted to at least explore what was going on.... with a new MC. And she was for it. But of course still quite focused and angry with my affair and me leaving.

I told her I understood her anger, but she had to work with me on how we got to where we were too... 

So, more counseling. different MC.

She's finally talking about her sexual abuse. But I'm having a very very very hard time connecting. She says the only way she wants to work on it is with US- not her alone. I asked if I died, would she just give up on herself. Her answer was yes.

I feel at this point I am just playing the role to support her again, but I am here just for that. I am truly running on empty. I will admit, after my AE, that I got a taste of what an emotional connection can be...

I wonder if maybe all we were to be were good friends... and that no amount of counselling will get us healed, or to a place we've never been before anyhow. I'm afraid I can't be what she needs me to be - to just be the rock. I can't be that anymore. I felt like she pushed me away for so long that I'm finding it hard to feel that spark that I once did.


Nothing seems to make her happy - and I'm plain tired of trying. 
Sometimes I think her past abuse has manifested a borderline personality disorder. I feel like I'm dealing with a little kid in some ways....
And I'm finding it really hard to respect her and how she deals with her problems. I know. it's terrible to feel that. 

And now, when she tries to get closer to me.. my skin just crawls. It's like too little too late. I just feel like being in the other room from her.

I feel like a failure for not being stronger. And a failure for going outside my marriage. But, I am human. I think we all have our breaking points. I think I missed mine years ago and there may be no going back.

I love my wife. But I'm not sure I'm supposed to go through this to live life. It has to be easier than this.


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## 3Xnocharm

mountain_minds said:


> She says the only way she wants to work on it is with US- not her alone.* I asked if I died, would she just give up on herself. Her answer was yes.
> *
> I feel at this point I am just playing the role to support her again, but I am here just for that. I am truly running on empty.that I'm finding it hard to feel that spark that I once did.
> 
> 
> Nothing seems to make her happy - and I'm plain tired of trying.
> Sometimes I think her past abuse has manifested a borderline personality disorder. I feel like I'm dealing with a little kid in some ways....
> 
> And I'm finding it really hard to respect her and how she deals with her problems. I know. it's terrible to feel that.
> 
> I feel like a failure for not being stronger. And a failure for going outside my marriage. But, I am human. I think we all have our breaking points. I think I missed mine years ago and there may be no going back.
> 
> I love my wife. But I'm not sure I'm supposed to go through this to live life. It has to be easier than this.


This part that I bolded is what stands out to me. That she is putting her very existence on your shoulders. You need to find a way to allow yourself to stop being responsible for it. She is a grown woman, and needs to be responsible for her own well being. If she doesnt care about it, then it will never matter how much YOU care about it. Give yourself permission to stop the enabling. You cant fix it, and you deserve to have a real life and a real love, one that is healthy and reciprocal. This relationship is not healthy, for either one of you.


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## mountain_minds

3Xnocharm said:


> This part that I bolded is what stands out to me. That she is putting her very existence on your shoulders. You need to find a way to allow yourself to stop being responsible for it. She is a grown woman, and needs to be responsible for her own well being. If she doesnt care about it, then it will never matter how much YOU care about it. Give yourself permission to stop the enabling. You cant fix it, and you deserve to have a real life and a real love, one that is healthy and reciprocal. This relationship is not healthy, for either one of you.


Yeah. That's the part. A part of me feels that I should be honored that she would want to work on it with ME. But, there is no self preservation to work on it to make herself better. The MC said that "it would be a beautiful thing" for us to work together on it. But I still balked - I said I feel like there was undo pressure on me - and that if she didn't want to do it for herself too, how would it ever really get dealt with?

I take it as, "I will never work on this without you -so if you weren't here, I'd just live with this problem for the rest of my days. It's OK with me."

Self destructive.

Another example....
She plays soccer for fun and her position is goalie. She's had likely a 8+ real concussions. The last one, after we spent it in the ER for a CAT scan (one of many such nites I've spent), etc, the doc said you really need to hang this up for a while - you're just damaging yourself. You're on the road to brain damage. 
She was very passionate about playing and it killed her not to, but she did stop playing. 

Later she told me she quit playing for me. And, if I weren't in the picture, she'd keep playing despite the consequences to her health.

I was floored of course. I could understand the passion of playing, but to mess around with your brain and all the things that comes from repeated concussions? Where was the self preservation?


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## Uptown

mountain_minds said:


> Sometimes I think her past abuse has manifested a *borderline personality disorder*.


Mountain, it is very unlikely you will ever know for certain that your W "has BPD," i.e., has the full-blown disorder. Even if she does, therapists generally are loath to tell a BPDer -- much less tell her H -- the name of her disorder (for her own protection). Remember, your W's therapist is NOT YOUR FRIEND because he is ethically bound to protect her best interests, not yours. 

Hence, the best way to find out what you've been dealing with for 9 years is to see your own clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two _all by yourself _-- to obtain a candid professional opinion based on your description of her behaviors. Relying on your W's therapist for candid advice during the marriage would be as foolish as relying on her attorney for advice during the divorce.

Yet, for the purposes of deciding whether to remain married to her, obtaining a diagnosis of her "having BPD" won't accomplish anything. The reason is that, even when BPD traits fall well short of satisfying 100% of the diagnostic criteria, they can be strong enough to undermine a marriage and make your life miserable. A woman meeting only 70% or 80% of those criteria may be nearly as difficult to live with as one meeting 100%. The important issue, then, is not whether she "has BPD" but, instead, whether her BPD traits are sufficiently strong that they are undermining your marriage.

That said, I agree with you that many behaviors you describe -- i.e., the verbal abuse, inability to tolerate intimacy, black-white thinking, event-triggered rages and temper tantrums, "self destructive," and always being "The Victim" -- are some of the classic warning signs for BPD.


> My wife is a survivor of sexual abuse in her childhood. She was abused for several years when she was around 8 by her older teenage brother.


Most survivors of sexual abuse in childhood grow up without developing BPD. Such abuse in childhood, however, greatly raises the risk for doing so. My BPDer exW, for example, was sexually abused for years starting at that same age.


> She would occasionally totally flip out and get very mad or emotional over little, stupid things.


The inability to regulate one's own emotions is the key defining trait for BPD. Indeed, a substantial share of the psychiatric community has been lobbying for over two decades to change the name from "BPD" to "Emotional Regulation Disorder."


> Sometimes, the littlest things became the biggest deals.


As you know by now, the apparent cause of the argument doesn't CAUSE the anger that is released. Rather, it only serves as a TRIGGER to release the anger that she has been carrying deep inside ever since her childhood. Hence, when she is hurting badly inside, any trigger -- no matter how small -- will serve to release it. 

Indeed, if you sit absolutely still and say not a word, the anger will still be released. In that case, what happens is that her subconscious mind will project the hurtful feelings and thoughts onto you. And, because that projection is created entirely in the subconscious, she will be absolutely convinced -- at a conscious level -- that the hurt and harmful thoughts are coming from you. The result, if your W has strong BPD traits, is that she will use you as a trashcan in which to dispose of all her bad feelings and thoughts.


> I feel like I'm dealing with a little kid in some ways....


If she is a BPDer (i.e., has strong traits), you are dealing with a woman who likely has the emotional development of a four year old. With BPDers, this can be hard to see because they have the intelligence, cunning, knowledge, and body strength of a full grown adult.


> As time went on - we still had a hard time connecting intimately. And yes, I would talk with her about it. ....It would end usually with a giant argument.


Because a BPDer has such a fragile, unstable sense of who she is, she typically has a great fear of engulfment, i.e., the suffocating feeling of losing one's self into the strong personality of her H. This is why BPDers usually have the feeling that their loved ones are trying to control them. This is why, immediately following or during intimacy, a BPDer will push her lover away by creating an argument out of thin air. Her frightening feeling of engulfment ends, as you say, with "a giant argument." This is why the very WORST arguments tend to occur during or immediately after the very BEST of times, e.g., a great vacation or intimate weekend.


> The next morning she would act like nothing happened.


Because they don't have an integrated sense of who they are, BPDers are very intolerant of experiencing strong mixed feelings, ambiguities, uncertainties, or other grey areas of interpersonal relationships. A BPDer therefore "splits off" the conflicting feelings, putting them out of reach of her conscious mind. 

In this way, a BPDer tends to do black-white thinking whenever she experiences significant stress. At any moment, she is only in touch with her loving feelings toward you -- or her hateful feelings. This is why a BPDer can flip, in only ten seconds, from hating or devaluing you to suddenly loving you. My exW, for example, would rage for several hours and then suddenly want to jump into bed and have sex with me. Yet, because I was fully in touch with all of my mixed feelings, it could be several days before I would want to touch her again.


> She switched to several new jobs. Most the time she was forced out because of how she treated people. She was too hard to please and be around.


Most BPDers are high functioning people who interact very well with business associates, casual friends, and total strangers -- because none of those folks pose a threat to the BPDer's two great fears (abandonment and engulfment). Hence, your W's inability to get along with other workers likely indicates that you are describing some co-occurring traits of another disorder. If she is a BPDer, this would not be surprising because about 80% of BPDers also have strong traits of one or two other personality disorders, together with at least one clinical disorder such as bipolar, PTSD, anxiety, depression, or ADHD.


> Most issues it seemed were never her fault - they were always someone else's. Very black and white stuff. No room for grey.... If someone wronged her, they were immediately cast out. For the littlest thing - there was no smoothing it over.


As I noted earlier, a BPDer will recategorize someone from one polar extreme to the other -- in just a few seconds -- based on a minor comment or infraction (real or imagined). Indeed, we all do that whenever we experience very intense feelings. By the time we're in high school, we've all experienced this distortion so many hundreds of times that we realize our judgment goes out the window whenever we have very intense feelings. This is why we try to keep our mouths shut while we are very angry and try to wait at least a year before buying the ring while we are very infatuated. BPDers are like that too -- times ten.


> Sometimes it seems she only liked the things I liked (music, etc) but had a hard time picked what she liked. And no, not because I domineered her... she just sort of mirrored me.


If she has strong BPD traits, she has a strong need to be around a man whose stable personality will help to center and ground her -- and provide her with a sense of direction. When a person is unsure of who she is, she will have great difficulty knowing what hobbies and activities to pursue when left alone. This is why BPDers generally hate to be alone.


> She seemed chronically unhappy. ...There was always a person to be mad at. There always seemed to be some huge drama at work.


If she is a BPDer, her lack of an integrated sense of self leaves her feeling empty and needy. Trying to make such a person "happy" and trying to satisfy her needs is an impossible task. It is like trying to fill up the Grand Canyon with a squirt gun.


> I told her I wanted to at least explore what was going on.... with a new MC. So, more counseling. different MC.


My experience is that, with BPDers, MC is totally useless until the BPDer has had at least several years of IC to work on her issues. Those issues go far beyond a simple lack of communication skills, which MCs are so good at teaching. Indeed, until that necessary work has been done in IC, MC may be damaging because BPDers tend to use it to portray their spouses as evil perpetrators and to portray themselves as victims. Moreover, the communication skills acquired by a BPDer may simply make her more skilled at manipulating her spouse.


> She says the only way she wants to work on it is with US- not her alone.


I agree with 3X that IC will be productive only if the BPDer strongly wants it for HERSELF, not "for US." To want therapy for herself means she has the self awareness to hold herself accountable for her dysfunctional behavior and has the ego strength to work hard on fixing it.


> I asked if I died, would she just give up on herself. Her answer was yes.


If she is a BPDer, she has a great fear of abandonment and therefore is likely to try to "guilt you" into staying around. My exW, for example, went far beyond what you describe. She would walk to a tall bridge, knowing I was following protectively behind. When I stopped following, she started going to the nearest subway platform -- where she would call me, tell me she was going to jump in front of the next train, and then hang up.


> And I'm finding it really hard to respect her and how she deals with her problems. I know. it's terrible to feel that.


No, Mountain, not terrible at all. It's a healthy sign that you are finally establishing stronger personal boundaries because you are seeing more clearly where YOUR problems leave off and HER problems begin.


> I am a caretaker sort....


Welcome to the crowd, Mountain. There are hundreds of us here on TAM. Our problem is not that we want to help other people. Rather, it is our willingness to keep helping even when it is to our great detriment to do so. We do this, I believe, because our desire to be needed (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be loved (for the men we already are). 

The result is that we often mistake "being needed" for "being loved" -- to the point that we have great difficulty realizing we are being loved if the woman doesn't also desperately need us. This is why we are inclined to walk right on past all the emotionally available women (BORING) until we find one who desperately needs us. If you would like to read more about excessive caregiving and BPD warning signs, an easy place to start is my post in Maybe's Thread. If that description rings some bells, Mountain, I would be glad to discuss them with you.


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## soulpotato

mountain_minds said:


> I asked if I died, would she just give up on herself. Her answer was yes.





3Xnocharm said:


> *If she doesnt care about it, then it will never matter how much YOU care about it.*


MM, I have BPD. I have been in treatment for over a year now.

The issue is that a lot of times, a BPDer is not going to be able to snap his/her fingers and suddenly have that self-worth and desire to do things for "self". Because the self doesn't matter. That's part of why we can be so self-destructive. So is it so awful if the ball gets rolling from an external focus (i.e. saving a relationship with someone the BPDer loves, and wanting to learn how NOT to hurt that person) if it might never start rolling any other way? If he/she sticks with treatment and works hard, they will learn to do self-care, have self-worth, etc. And from that will flow many good things. 

The part I bolded - that is not necessarily true. Someone else caring about it DOES matter and CAN make a difference. I started learning how to care about myself because my partner cared about me. I started taking better care of myself for her sake. Then it became more of a habit, though I still had/have a long way to go. Before her, no one had ever cared like that, so I didn't realize/feel I should care about myself. 



mountain_minds said:


> I take it as, "I will never work on this without you -so if you weren't here, I'd just live with this problem for the rest of my days. It's OK with me."


I know how this feels. Changing and abandoning the old ways (which feels like losing one's already tenuous self and facing annihilation) is far scarier and in some ways more painful than maintaining the status quo. Plus, a BPDer often will feel that she doesn't deserve any better, she's not worth the effort. It should be spent on someone else, she feels she's sucking up valuable resources, etc. 

I know a lot of people see these kinds of statements (quoted) as being nothing but manipulation, but I think they don't understand that the intent is usually not manipulation, it is a real feeling. A strong feeling. Maybe she is trying to say that you are what inspires her to want to face those demons. But she has to show you that she's serious and take action on those first steps before asking you about anything. But it sounds like it may be too late.

Personally, I don't think I'd be facing my demons/issues and doing everything I've done if it weren't for the love I have for my partner. I think it's most often love that motivates people to do huge, terrifying, life-altering improvements. Not vague, abstract concepts of what's healthy or "this will make things better in a future that doesn't exist yet". 

When someone is really broken and is missing certain pieces they should have because something wasn't given or went awry in the early years, they have to rebuild from the ground up, and that might not look the way everyone wants it to at first. Just my 2 cents.


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## IronWine29

I think this is the most profound advice I've ever seen on TAM.

I don't envy you, MM. You have a gut-wrenching decision to make.

The only thing I think I could add: While I don't think you should feel guilty for straying (I say that as a BS, so I'm not taking that lightly), don't become involved with anyone else again until you figure this out.


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## mountain_minds

soulpotato said:


> MM, I have BPD. I have been in treatment for over a year now.
> 
> I know a lot of people see these kinds of statements (quoted) as being nothing but manipulation, but I think they don't understand that the intent is usually not manipulation, it is a real feeling. A strong feeling. Maybe she is trying to say that you are what inspires her to want to face those demons. But she has to show you that she's serious and take action on those first steps before asking you about anything..


The problem is that this behavior plays into exactly what I have been doing for her. I have always been there, or as much as I possibly can. And this need to take care of her, despite tending to my own needs runs pretty strong in my core self. 

I think the problem is now I'm wrung out. She's not the only one who's had a tough row of it. I feel like I'm pouring effort down a chasm - and as it turns out, in a healthy relationship it needs to go both ways. 

When does it turn? From my experiences thus far it doesn't. It's all about her and I guess for this relationship to continue, I will have to again shelf what I need.... and bend and ask the eternal, "now what can I do for YOU to make it all better, in what way can I possibly support you more? Don't worry, I'm an everlasting eternal spring of giving - I'll just keep doing it!"
lol

I'm afraid I've reached the point that my reservoir of support and selflessness has been drained. It's hard to muster up more in reserve without being cynical. 

I do however appreciate your perspective. I think I can understand what you're saying. Seeing it from your lens, it makes a bit more sense of how she's processing it from her side.

I just wish I had more in the tank.


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## mountain_minds

Uptown said:


> Welcome to the crowd, Mountain. There are hundreds of us here on TAM. Our problem is not that we want to help other people. Rather, it is our willingness to keep helping even when it is to our great detriment to do so. We do this, I believe, because our desire to be needed (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be loved (for the men we already are).
> 
> The result is that we often mistake "being needed" for "being loved" -- to the point that we have great difficulty realizing we are being loved if the woman doesn't also desperately need us. This is why we are inclined to walk right on past all the emotionally available women (BORING) until we find one who desperately needs us.


Uptown,

Thanks for saying this. And for all you responded to. It's all food for thought and the more I look at how she behaves the mores I think she might be a high functioning person with BPD. 

But more, thanks for the last part - that's real insight. I thought a great deal about what you said - the difference between being needed and being loved. I've always known I put myself in this position - and that my wife alone is not responsible for the station we find our marriage in. My own weaknesses allowed me to get along as far as we did. It's a matter of figuring out how I want to move forward.


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## soulpotato

MM, without a doubt, if she cannot give back to you and strive for balance with you, then you cannot afford a close relationship with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

As for when it turns...I don't know what to say as I've never been the way you describe your wife (with not giving back). In fact, I'm the opposite. I tended to over give, over extend. So I'm not sure how that might work out for you. Since you are the one who gives too much, it's hard to say. It depends on how aware she is of herself and you, I guess, and how much she feels the need to change.

I really wish I could offer you something more helpful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mountain_minds

soulpotato said:


> As for when it turns...I don't know what to say as I've never been the way you describe your wife (with not giving back). In fact, I'm the opposite. I tended to over give, over extend. So I'm not sure how that might work out for you. Since you are the one who gives too much, it's hard to say. It depends on how aware she is of herself and you, I guess, and how much she feels the need to change.
> 
> I really wish I could offer you something more helpful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You know, it's not about that she can't give anything - it's that she can't participate in an intimate way and see how some of her behavior has made it difficult for me to keep on doing what I've always done before. She has to recognize she needs to take care of herself as an individual to be much good for us as a couple. I simply can't do it all for her, and that's what she wants. 

Of course I made it all work before so she'd like to resume that. I just can't.

And what I mean by an intimate ways is in communication and in physicality. It takes two to do that in a relationship, not just one who is always throwing themselves at the other.

I'd certainly take some over-compensation at this point, but the real message I get from my wife is "why I can't be like I was before" and since I'm not, she takes that as not being loved. And acts accordingly.


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## joe kidd

She was great in the beginning because she "mirrored" . Liked what you liked, felt what you felt.....
Unless she becomes self aware she will always be a victim , you will be whatever she sees you as at that point in time. You can't fix her, she has to fix herself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

mountain_minds said:


> You know, it's not about that she can't give anything - it's that she can't participate in an intimate way and see how some of her behavior has made it difficult for me to keep on doing what I've always done before. She has to recognize she needs to take care of herself as an individual to be much good for us as a couple. I simply can't do it all for her, and that's what she wants.
> 
> Of course I made it all work before so she'd like to resume that. I just can't.
> 
> And what I mean by an intimate ways is in communication and in physicality. It takes two to do that in a relationship, not just one who is always throwing themselves at the other.
> 
> I'd certainly take some over-compensation at this point, but the real message I get from my wife is "why I can't be like I was before" and since I'm not, she takes that as not being loved. And acts accordingly.


Oh man, MM, you want her to be emotionally present (naturally) and experience real intimacy with you on multiple levels - which is like kryptonite to a BPDer. I was just talking about this on another thread. It is really terrifying and threatening, and intensely uncomfortable. It inspires panic. To have real intimacy, she has to come within striking range without any protection or defenses, only as herself, she has to be open and vulnerable. But that's the worst...right? At least, to her it seems like it. Not to mention, what if you see her, what if you see the REAL mess of her, which surely no one can love? Scary, really scary. Of course, we're all individuals, so these feelings might not be accurate for her, but I bet at least some of it is.

I know this is not your problem, nor should it be. Like Joe said, it's not yours to fix, it's hers. This is tough stuff. It's good that you have stopped compensating for her and rescuing her, because though you meant well, it is actually enabling her and she will never grow or change like that. Is she willing to do any therapy at all? Does she understand that there is something wrong on her side, that there is a problem? That there is a need to change? Sounds like she is focused on trying to change you, to "rewind" and get you to do what you did before. Have you told her, really sat her down and explained, that that's not going to happen, because it can't? That it was hurting you?


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## Uptown

mountain_minds said:


> I thought a great deal about what you said - the difference between being needed and being loved.


Mountain, you will find a better explanation of it in Shari Schreiber's DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?. Although I generally don't share Schreiber's view of BPDers, I find this article about us excessive caregivers to be very insightful -- especially the last half of it. Also, if you have time, you may benefit from following the link I provided in my first post above.


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## 6301

The kind of help she needs, you can't give her. A MC is the answer either. 
She need a psychiatrist to get her through her problems and no doubt it will take a while so either you have the patience to be there for her or you don't. It's up to you.


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## mountain_minds

Uptown said:


> Mountain, you will find a better explanation of it in Shari Schreiber's DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?. Although I generally don't share Schreiber's view of BPDers, I find this article about us excessive caregivers to be very insightful -- especially the last half of it. Also, if you have time, you may benefit from following the link I provided in my first post above.


Wow Uptown. I've been digesting that. And I must say... it's a real eye opener. I felt like I was being described to a T. Clearly, to be healthy for myself and anyone else I need to recognize and mitigate this flaw in myself. I used to always think it was a negative and a positive thing. Now for what I see it as... my caretaking is doing no-one, including me, any favors.

I read the first link you gave me too. My W doesn't fly off the handle all the time (usually when confronted about something very personal, like sex... or abuse, or if you ebb into her black and white thinking, or if stressed), but it seems some of the descriptions of BPD fit. 



Uptown said:


> The verbal abuse, inability to tolerate intimacy, black-white thinking, event-triggered rages and temper tantrums, "self destructive," and always being "The Victim"


I don't see her raging constantly - but maybe it's because I keep that at bay - and when I'm not enabling her poor behavior and she can't control what I do any longer she does act out like a child.... Some the the descriptions of BPD seem a little further than she is - but I can say with certainly that she certainly exhibits all those features on occasion. Or, maybe they don't seem as bad to me because I've pushed them away as somehow normal -when they're not. 

Or, that now that she realizes she's losing me that it's time to throw it all in reverse and to an attempt to manipulate me to stay. She seems now to need more more than ever - As she's sick (migraines, etc) or needs to me to the littlest things for me - which I guess plays right into my "caretaker" disposition. And if we talk and then argue about a subject and she goes into "child mode" and ceases to actually talk, but pout and pitch a fit, then I revert to what I do best - be passive and hope it passes. Not a winning solution. 

One example....We recently had an argument about me going out to see a male friend. I had told her I needed to go out and be with friends away from her on occasion... and of course these days she needs me basically near her (or in the house) at any spare moment she has, or I have (to get closer again, as she says). I explained to her I need to get out sometimes and recharge my batteries and that's healthy - and pointed out that she herself took a 5 day trip to see some of her friends on the coast. She quickly pointed out she scheduled this trip during my 2 week absence and that she only did it "because I left her" and she was crying and falling apart as she recalled this.
(we were together when she took this trip)

Now I can understand the angst of me leaving during our separation. I get that. It was a tough time. But it all reverted back to her being a victim.. She was wronged - and I did it. Etc. Nothing for her to say like, "hmm, maybe you left because of my action? " Nor introspect, or the like. And yes, we talked ad nauseum back then about the reason WHY I left. But yet, it always reverts back to HER pain. Back to how SHE was wronged. It becomes very hard to move forward when the answer is so black and white for her. Morally, my actions weren't superior - I get that. But there is room for shades of gray over the failure of the relationship and that everyone gets to own a piece of it. My pain and hurt seems to be conveniently forgotten (the lack of intimacy etc) next to any pain she's felt.

Some of this hard to sort though. And I'm trying hard to check myself into making sure I'm not "over believing" something about my wife that is not there. But, the more my eyes are open, the more I read, the more I see that indeed - I'm not crazy.

This is something I've been reading too:
BREAKING UP WITH A BORDERLINE:
There must be 50 Ways to leave your Loverl

'TILL DEATH DO US PART
BPD and The Marriage Crucible

On Wednesday we see the MC again. I'm awaiting for the blame to be swung back at me. Last time I was at the MC I told her how I was not willing to love her unconditionally after she asked me to - but the MC herself wanted me to promise to "be committed" to working through this with my W. I obliged - mostly because I felt like if I said I wasn't committed I would have started WWIII in the MC office with 10 minutes left in our session. 
My MC thinks working through my W's abuse together "would be a beautiful thing". But I am thinking more and more, that her abuse coupled with BPD will not be a beautiful thing for me. It will be an exercise in patients that I simply don't posses.


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## Uptown

mountain_minds said:


> My W doesn't fly off the handle all the time (usually when confronted about something very personal, like sex... or abuse, or if you ebb into her black and white thinking, or if stressed), but it seems some of the descriptions of BPD fit. * I don't see her raging constantly.*


Neither did I, Mountain. My BPDer exW would rage maybe once every 4 or 5 weeks. Sometimes we would go two months without a blow up. If high functioning BPDers were raging all the time, nobody would remain married to them. While they are behaving good, they tend to be very VERY good. It is because they offer this mixture of very good times and occasional very bad times that these BPDer relationships are so addictive and hard to let go of. 

Another reason is that, during the good periods, the BPDer will exhibit a purity of expression and warmth that otherwise is seen only in young children. Hence, in this sense, walking away from a sick BPDer can be almost as difficult as walking away from a sick child. It is something that is extremely hard for us caregiver types to pull off -- even when we understand intellectually that our enabling behavior is actually harming the BPDer, not helping her. I nonetheless believe you will accomplish it. I just figure that it may take you a while to get there.


> Some the the descriptions of BPD seem a little further than she is - but I can say with certainly that she certainly exhibits all those features on occasion.


As I said before, BPD is a "spectrum disorder" and we all lie somewhere on that spectrum. For the purposes of deciding whether to remain married to her, it doesn't matter whether she has full-blown BPD (i.e., whether she meets 100% of the diagnostic criteria). Even when a woman's BPD traits fall well below that diagnostic threshold, they can be strong enough to undermine a marriage and make your life miserable. 

Those diagnostic criteria were largely designed under pressure from the courts (which don't want to institutionalize people), the insurance companies (which don't want to pay for therapy), and the therapists (who don't want to label someone with a diagnosis carrying a bad social stigma). The diagnostic criteria therefore were NOT designed to meet the needs of an abused husband who is trying to decide whether to divorce his abusive wife. 

From that perspective, a wife who is satisfying only 70% or 80% of the diagnostic criteria may be nearly as difficult to live with as a wife satisfying 100%. Hence, being told that she "does not have BPD" does not mean you are safe. The relevant question, then, is whether her BPD traits are strong enough to undermine your marriage.

None of us on this forum can answer that question. We cannot know how strong her traits are because we've never even met her. In contrast, nobody is better positioned to spot the warning signs that you, given that you've known her for 9 years and been married for 6.


> My MC thinks working through my W's abuse together "would be a beautiful thing".


As Froggie and I discuss above, MC likely will be useless at best -- and perhaps even damaging -- if your W has strong BPD traits that are untreated by IC. 


> Some of this hard to sort though. And I'm trying hard to check myself into making sure I'm not "over believing" something about my wife that is not there.


Yes, it is "hard to sort through," as you say. My experience, Mountain, is that acquiring an intellectual understanding of _"what to do"_ is the easy part. What is hard is internalizing that information so as to convince your "inner child," i.e., the intuitive emotional part of your mind. For all human beings, it seems that the inner child makes perhaps 95% of the really important decisions. I was 50 years old before I understood this simple notion. And it took me 12 years to do it.

What happened was that, for 12 years, I took my bipolar foster son to a weekly family group meeting with the psychologist who was treating him. Whenever the psychologist challenged me on something, I always had an elaborate well-thought-out explanation for doing whatever I had chosen to do. Never mind that what I had chosen was not working with my foster son and never mind that I kept repeating the same pattern year after year.

The psychologist was always greatly amused by my explanations. He would laugh and point out, in his kindly fashion, that my elaborate rationalizations could not disguise the fact that my inner child -- not my adult -- was calling all the shots, making nearly all my decisions. In any contest between the adult and child, he claimed, *the child would nearly always win*. But I just could not swallow that concept. I remained unpersuaded.

Yet, after twelve years of his gentle rebukes, it finally dawned on me one night -- right as I was about to drift into sleep -- why he had to be right. My inner child, I suddenly realized, is *the sole judge of what is fun and what is not fun*. That decision is all powerful. The adult part of my mind will nearly always conclude that it makes no sense -- indeed, would be preposterous -- to do something, go somewhere, or date someone I do not enjoy. My adult logic thus nearly always has to end up in the lap of my inner child.

This is why learning about my exW's problem (BPD) and my problem (excessive caregiving) is the easy part. What is difficult is internalizing that understanding, i.e., transforming knowledge into wisdom, which requires that my feelings catch up with my intellectual thoughts.

Simply stated, I had to persuade the inner child that my adult views of my ex's illness and my own excessive caregiving are correct -- an objective I mostly attained within a year. Had I failed in that effort, I would have remained stuck in a destructive pattern, repeating my past mistakes over and over, because my child will be calling nearly all the shots.

Because I had been in a 15 year relationship, it took me at least a year to bring my child's feelings into alignment with my adult's understanding. After just two weeks of intense reading on the Internet, I had a pretty good understanding of what I needed to do to get out of the toxic relationship and why I needed to do it.

Yet, because my child was a year behind my adult, the child sabotaged my every effort to break away. It hindered me with nagging doubts, terrible guilt, and a strong feeling of obligation. It kept telling me that the theory floating around in the adult part of my mind was *an insufficient basis on which to abandon a sick loved one*. 

Hence, even after I had divorced her, I still refused to go No Contact for eight more months, at which point I finally realized she is incapable of ever being my friend because, absent trust, she had no foundation on which to build a friendship. My adult dragged my child -- with him kicking and screaming every inch of the way -- to that shocking truth. 

How do you accomplish that? How do you teach a child -- who had felt for many years she was my best friend -- that she never had that capability? To bring my child and adult into alignment, what helped me *a little *was talking about my new-found knowledge to anyone who would listen. Well, that was good for a week. Then their eyes glazed over. 

So what helped *the most* was coming to forums like TAM, where I could discuss it with people who had been there, done that. Significantly, that helped my mind to associate feelings with each of the intellectual thoughts. That was helpful because the child seems to learn best from emotional experiences, not from logic.

My experience, then, is that writing and talking helped me to internalize the information, turning knowledge into wisdom -- by connecting thoughts to feelings. If you doubt that, simply ask university professors about its effectiveness. They will quickly tell you they never had an intuitive, deep-level understanding of their subject matter until they had to teach it to someone else -- or had to write it down precisely when doing research. 

Hence, what I found most helpful is talking about it to anyone who will listen and writing about it to anyone who will write back. In addition, Mountain, I also saw a psychologist for six visits. Likewise, if you still feel confused, you may benefit from seeing a psychologist -- for at least a visit or two of IC -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you've been dealing with.


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## Jimena

I'm not sure if our story helps but, you can read it.
My H was physically/sexually abused by family/foster family at a very young age. He was in therapy during his childhood and teens (for being 'the problem child') and only began to deal with and tell anyone about the latter abuse around the time that we met. 
He's adjusted well-enough, but it's been a long road. Lots of therapy when he was young (sometimes good, sometimes very bad), anti-depressants & unfortunately some mis-prescribed antipsychotics. Those proved dangerous and he eventually got off them all, but then he would go through periods of drinking, which wasn't good either. He still self-medicates with cigars, but he needs them less than the rest because he has made great personal strides. He has always sought out a strong support network (informal therapy) and is often introspective. He is a little more like you, in that he seeks to be the 'caregiver'. In his words, it's a behavior he developed at an early age in order to better survive his chaotic living situations. But there will always be difficulties, like an abuser trying to be fb friends, or how I can never grab him by the wrist. It never goes away entirely, but it can be worked through if the victim wants to get better.

My H has often said that there need to be more IC that specialize for victims of sexual abuse, because the behaviors and intimacy issues are unique and hard to deal with. I hope you live in an area where this might be possible to find. I agree with others that IC would be much more productive than MC. 
As for you, I hope you continue to work on you. Keep up your social and support network because everybody needs one. (but I would cut out any EA or PA unless you're final on divorce) Learn the (fine line as it is) difference between support and enabling. Help her re-build her support instead of providing it (eg. have a st. pattys party and invite all her friends, help her find something to do on the nights you go out).
Of course, nothing will ever work if she doesn't see a problem, and doesn't want to get better. All you can do is change yourself and your behaviors so that she can not continue with the status quo, whether it means she gets worse or gets better.


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## soulpotato

Re: BPDers being called manipulative - ALL humans are manipulative, it's just a matter of awareness, magnitude, and intent. BPDers will manipulate instinctively to get their needs met, just as a child does.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## doubletrouble

By the way, it seems to have been uncharacteristically skipped by responders here -- stop with your affair. I didn't read every word in great analytical detail, but I didn't read anywhere that you'd completely cut that off. 

Deal with your marriage one way or another. Stay away from your FWB. It's not helping you keep your head straight, trust me.


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## mountain_minds

doubletrouble said:


> By the way, it seems to have been uncharacteristically skipped by responders here -- stop with your affair. I didn't read every word in great analytical detail, but I didn't read anywhere that you'd completely cut that off.
> 
> Deal with your marriage one way or another. Stay away from your FWB. It's not helping you keep your head straight, trust me.


It's been cut off. I don't communicate with her much less see her. That's over.

But I will say. The affection she gave me wasn't easily forgotten. I won't be forgetting that any time soon. That doesn't truss up into a neat and tidy box for some, I suppose. But, she cared enough for me to let me go and deal with my life.


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## mountain_minds

Uptown said:


> How do you accomplish that? How do you teach a child -- who had felt for many years she was my best friend -- that she never had that capability? To bring my child and adult into alignment, what helped me *a little *was talking about my new-found knowledge to anyone who would listen. Well, that was good for a week. Then their eyes glazed over.
> 
> So what helped *the most* was coming to forums like TAM, where I could discuss it with people who had been there, done that. Significantly, that helped my mind to associate feelings with each of the intellectual thoughts. That was helpful because the child seems to learn best from emotional experiences, not from logic..


Thanks for all you've written and taken the time to share - sometimes when I read what you write I feel like you're talking about my life... and not just your own. It's the one thing I've read in the past many months that makes me feel not so alone at all. And that I have the tools to deal at my fingertips, if I just have the discipline to do it. 

The part about the guilt of leaving a sick child - in many ways fits. I understand the rational for doing so, but it sure pulls the heart strings. But, it's a matter of understanding what I deserve too. It's never really been in my nature to think I deserved anything - and that sort of thinking needs to be modified else I'm just not going to be living as full a life as I could have. Thanks Uptown.


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## lfortender

A man doesn't need to be a nice guy, thats why wives keep walking all over nice guys!


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## mountain_minds

lfortender said:


> A man doesn't need to be a nice guy, thats why wives keep walking all over nice guys!


I disagree. I think we should try to be nice guys. But we need to know our boundaries too and what we can do that doesn't cause us harm in the process.

I think there is room for shades of gray here - it's not all black and white.


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## lfortender

mountain_minds said:


> I disagree. I think we should try to be nice guys. But we need to know our boundaries too and what we can do that doesn't cause us harm in the process.
> 
> I think there is room for shades of gray here - it's not all black and white.


Yes,now you're right, boundaries.


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## Hemingway

MM,

That is almost my story that you have written here. Change your emotional affair with my wife's 3 PAs. Rets all just my story as well. It is a bit complicated though, we have a child. I too suspect of my wife's BPD, just started reading on it last week. She was also CSA by cousin and her own bother.

I am currently on a break for two months trying to figure out what to do with my messed up life. Her affairs have pulled my down so low. Such enabler I was.

I wish you all the best with your journey.


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## mountain_minds

Latest marriage counselling session just happened. I need some TAM advise, on how to take it.

So, basically in this session we were told how to deal with the "adaptive child" that comes out of my W. That when I see her adaptive child, she or myself are supposed to recognize it -and basically what I'm to do is to is (and this is how the MC put it) put out my "Aunt Jemima arms" and just listen and hold space. Be supportive without saying anything and know she's having a moment.

My W is supposed to recognize she's reverting back to an adaptive child and not take it out on me, but what until the flashover passes, basically - but not use me as an emotional punching bag.

MC says I'm supposed to ask my W if she's "gone adaptive" and supposedly my W is supposed to affirm in some non-hurtful way she has. I say supposedly, because if my W is at THIS point, it's like asking a match to get unlit - so much emotional energy is coming from her that it's hard to imagine anything constructive happening.

I feel my MC is asking me to remain passive - something I'm pretty good at doing - and let her run ramshod. Or, I guess the hope is that if I alert my W that she's "gone adaptive" that she will somehow throttle back out of her "adaptive child" eventually.

Seems mighty optimistic, to me, to expect my W to collect herself like that. Seems more of the same for me, to just await her to revert back to an adult.

More things about my W's CSA....
W stated, nearly verbatim here... that she thought she was living a fine life before me with how she dealt with her CSA, and the only reason now to deal with it is because I'm in her life.

That, basically, the only reason this is a problem now, is because she's with me. She was perfectly content with not opening this up further.

Understandable, I'd suppose. Who really wants to indulge themselves in something so horrific, and scarring all over again. I can get that.

However, I did ask, so - don't you think you deserve to feel all these intimate things you deny yourself? Don't you think you're worth it?
And basically her answer was that she felt she had found a place of peace with it. 

I must have looked like someone beat me over the head with a hammer, at this point. The MC seemed unphased by this. I thought it an enormous red flag. 

W said she'd work on it "with me" because it matters to our relationship, but if she were all on her own, this would be nothing she'd want to deal with more.

MC asked me how I felt about that. I told the her that I basically felt that I wanted to support my W - but that it was clear that I can't fix this with her. That we tried for 9 f'ing years! That I was afraid I couldn't help her. That I was tapped out of ways to make this better and that's precisely the reason why we were sitting in her office now. That I simply don't have to the tools to help my W and actually get my needs met too!

Of course my W took this as I didn't want to help. I tried to tell her it's because if history had proven anything with us, I obviously can't help, no matter what approach I took.

I tried re-emphasize that I was tapped out.

MC then gets really into her new favorite thing I guess. She really likes Brene Brown. And how Brene Brown handles the topic of Shame. 
She wants us both to read her book, The Gifts of Imperfection: Let Go of Who You Think You're Supposed to Be and Embrace Who You Are

And listen to this:
Brené Brown: The power of vulnerability | Talk Video | TED

and this:
Brené Brown: Listening to shame | Talk Video | TED


Basically, Brown writes about shame and how it undermines us as humans. It's a neat tidy message, I suppose and makes sense. And I know the reason she wants us to read it, is to understand the shame of my Ws CSA.

But is seems "counselling lite" to me with the handling of this issue.

Anyhow, session goes on. And MC leaves me with the message that my W's disclosure of her CSA requires me to give more - initiate more and be more understanding of how hard this has been and is on her to talk about and admit.

That was given to me despite my insistence that I'm tapped out and I've given more than I know already. That I've gone past my own boundaries to give more - with the false expectation that "if I do just a little bit more, it will all come back to me."

I felt like my plea fell on deaf ears... and that the solution to this CSA crisis in our marriage is to be more selfless, do more of what I've always done. Keep throwing yourself out there.

I emphasized again to my MC that the anniversary for my brother's passing was quickly approaching and I too needed something back. That, it wasn't a trump game, it's just that need flows both ways. She said, yes, of course you need support for that - but that your W's CSA vulnerability needs even more now.

What do you think, fellow TAM people? I felt thrown under the bus. I felt misunderstood. I felt like screaming.
I guess I wanted the MC to say that IC would be a good idea for my W. That it made sense I was overwhelmed.... not to take more on.

I just feel pummeled today. I was told I need to give more, and not sure if I can.


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## 3Xnocharm

mountain_minds said:


> Anyhow, session goes on. And MC leaves me with the message that my W's disclosure of her CSA requires me to give more - initiate more and be more understand of how hard this has been and is on her.
> 
> That was given to me despite my insistence that I'm tapped out and I've given more than I know already. That I've gone past my own boundaries to give more - with the false expectation that "if I do just a little bit more, it will all come back to me."
> 
> I felt like my plea fell on deaf ears... and that the solution to this CSA crisis in our marriage is to be more selfless, do more of what I've always done. Keep throwing yourself out there.
> 
> I emphasized again to my MC that the anniversary for my brother's passing was quickly approaching and I too needed something back. That, it wasn't a trump game, it's just that need flows both ways. She said, yes, of course you need support for that - but that your W's CSA vulnerability needs even more now.
> 
> What do you think, fellow TAM people? I felt thrown under the bus. I felt misunderstood. I felt like screaming.
> I guess I wanted the MC to say that IC would be a good idea for my W. That it made sense I was overwhelmed.... not to take more on.
> 
> I just feel pummeled today. I was told I need to give more, and not sure if I can.


I'm sorry but this is absurd. How is this MARRIAGE counseling?? This sounds more like "everyone work to heal the broken child" counseling, ya know? This MC is not acknowledging your needs at all. YOU COUNT. YOU MATTER. You know, you dont have to go through this. You have tried for years and years, and its OK if you are done, you have done way more than most people would have. Her life is not and should not be your responsibility.


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## soulpotato

Time for another MC. And I second what 3x said ^^^.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## doubletrouble

My W had lots of terrible things in her childhood, including CSA and she also had intensive therapy in her early 20s. She still has her moments, but the solution is not to coddle her. How many years ago were these events, after all? 

I know about my W's past, and I feel terrible she had to go through it. I even started a thread on it. You have to accept that this is part of her early make-up, but you don't have to accept that you have to take abuse from her.

She needs to learn the mentality of how to change from a _victim _to a *survivor*. 

You're not her abuser. You're her husband. You're there to love her and nurture her. But you're not there to continue to allow her to use her past to be abusive towards you. 

This is hard work, but with love and understanding (which goes both ways), you can deal with it. Maybe not "get past it" but at least deal with it so you can function as a couple and not let that abuser of the past win.


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## mountain_minds

doubletrouble said:


> My W had lots of terrible things in her childhood, including CSA and she also had intensive therapy in her early 20s. She still has her moments, but the solution is not to coddle her. How many years ago were these events, after all?
> 
> I know about my W's past, and I feel terrible she had to go through it. I even started a thread on it. You have to accept that this is part of her early make-up, but you don't have to accept that you have to take abuse from her.
> 
> She needs to learn the mentality of how to change from a _victim _to a *survivor*.
> 
> You're not her abuser. You're her husband. You're there to love her and nurture her. But you're not there to continue to allow her to use her past to be abusive towards you.
> 
> This is hard work, but with love and understanding (which goes both ways), you can deal with it. Maybe not "get past it" but at least deal with it so you can function as a couple and not let that abuser of the past win.


It happened about 38 years ago to her.

Great thoughts you have, but how do you get to what you describe? Surely not the path I'm on. You just might be a stronger man than I.


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## doubletrouble

So it's been 38 years, and she's still a victim. MC isn't going to work unless you have someone who can include BOTH of you PROPERLY dealing with her emotional condition. This isn't something she wanted, but it's something she's kept. If this has taken effect over her the last 38 years, it's not going to be an easy road. 

She needs proper counseling and the desire to change. That desire starts with thinking "survivor" not "victim" and getting pissed off enough so the abuser(s) don't win. How dare they take her life from her? 

There's no magic pill. Everyone's experience is different. But some basic things need to be done. I recommend IC for her, maybe intensive IC like 3 times a week. It will be difficult. It'll be heartbreaking if you hear the stories. But people do get to the point of winning, taking away the victory from the abuser. So can your W. 

Children figure out many ways of coping. Is she a counter, does she count? Is she OCD? Do certain things trigger her away from sex, or certain things in sex (positions, oral, etc)? These are likely stemming from that chidhood. 

All other things being equal, it's your role to support and understand, the best you can. But again, that doesn't mean you eat sh!t the rest of your life, too.


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## mountain_minds

doubletrouble said:


> She needs proper counseling and the desire to change. That desire starts with thinking "survivor" not "victim" and getting pissed off enough so the abuser(s) don't win. How dare they take her life from her?
> 
> There's no magic pill. Everyone's experience is different. But some basic things need to be done. I recommend IC for her, maybe intensive IC like 3 times a week. It will be difficult. It'll be heartbreaking if you hear the stories. But people do get to the point of winning, taking away the victory from the abuser. So can your W.


Well, I agree she needs IC. I've asked for her to do IC. And she doesn't want to. I suppose I need to give her an ultimatum?

Not sure if you read my other posts, but she only wants to work on this WITH me. She doesn't see the value in doing this alone with an IC. She says she's been there, done that. Basically, I think her past IC experiences (well before I was in the picture) ripped the scab off and never got to a way to deal with it. Certainly has to be scary to contemplate dealing with that again, I can imagine.



> Children figure out many ways of coping. Is she a counter, does she count? Is she OCD? Do certain things trigger her away from sex, or certain things in sex (positions, oral, etc)? These are likely stemming from that chidhood.
> 
> All other things being equal, it's your role to support and understand, the best you can. But again, that doesn't mean you eat sh!t the rest of your life, too.


Oh sure, she has ways of coping. It's called not having sex. Or not doing certain things during sex. Or not really connecting during sex and just "doing it". Or altering herself with alcohol so it's more bearable.

It's the fine line supporting and self preservation. I don't know how other spouses of CSA survivors do it...


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## Thor

Mountain-Minds, welcome to TAM. My wife is a CSA victim. I was a Nice Guy. That made for the Perfect Storm.

You sound like you have some Nice Guy traits, too. You're a caregiver, and you had a covert contract where you took care of her and expected she would take care of your needs in return. If you haven't read the book No More Mr. Nice Guy by Dr. R. Glover you might want to. Also visit the forums at No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group - Powered by vBulletin for some excellent support.

NMMNG is something you do for you, not for your marriage nor for her. But the side effects may include a good marriage (or an end to your marriage).

I can relate to most of what you wrote. It is a typical story for a Secondary Survivor, which is what we are. She is the Survivor, we are the Secondary. The abuse touches us and our children very strongly, too.

Your approach, in my opinion, should be far more self centered. That is, stop trying to get her to change, and stop trying to save your marriage. Instead, invest your time and energy into improving yourself, to include physical health and mental health, plus hobbies and even professionally. Get some good male friends if you don't have any. The only thing I don't recommend is any type of affair...

Then you can look at your relationship with your wife to evaluate whether it adds value to your life. I know it sounds pretty cold, but it isn't. You have told her how many times what you need, want, and desire? She knows by now. So she is choosing not to seek whatever path is necessary to get there. Perhaps for good reasons in her own mind (fear of therapy, emotional damage, character flaw, mental illness, etc), yet the result remains she is not stepping up to the challenge.

You may have some distorted thoughts about what is reasonable for you to put up with. You may be taking on blame or responsibility which isn't yours. By being more selfish you might in reality be moving towards a more rational location on the spectrum from the extreme you are sitting on today.

I wish you peace and good luck.


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## mountain_minds

Thor said:


> Your approach, in my opinion, should be far more self centered. That is, stop trying to get her to change, and stop trying to save your marriage. Instead, invest your time and energy into improving yourself, to include physical health and mental health, plus hobbies and even professionally. Get some good male friends if you don't have any. The only thing I don't recommend is any type of affair...


It's food for thought. 
But at this point, any time I try to do something solo, or with male friends she gets perturbed, because she believes I should be spending nearly every ounce of my time with her - bettering my marriage with her. Undoing me separating from her. Undoing my affair.

Yes, I realize that's counterproductive - but I'm telling you those are the forces I'm fighting here. In fact, half the reason I'm where I'm at is I began to focus more on myself - I made my health and my activities a priority. That has been a double edged sword - it made me feel healthier for sure, and less dependant on what I wasn't getting from my wife.

Of course, it made her feel less secure, but it wasn't like that's was enough to cause her re-equilibrate back to me. All of the stuff that makes up good intimacy in our marriage was still woefully lacking. 

If I go back to focusing on myself more, I feel like I will have put the final coffin nail in this marriage. Really, I know what you say to do is healthy. This is going way beyond that now.


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## Uptown

mountain_minds said:


> Latest marriage counselling session just happened. I need some TAM advise, on how to take it. But it seems _"counseling lite"_ to me with the handling of this issue.


To me, it sounds more like _"counseling useless."_ I agree with *SoulPotato* and *3X *that this approach will not be helpful if your W has strong BPD traits, as you suspect. As I said earlier, my experience is that MC is a waste of time until a BPDer has had several years to work on her issues. A BPDer's issues go far beyond a simple lack of communication skills, which is what MCs are good at teaching. 

Moreover, with a BPDer, conventional talk therapy usually is ineffective. What is needed is a therapist who has the specialized knowledge for teaching a BPDer the set of skills the rest of us learned in childhood: e.g., how to control her emotions, how to tolerate intimacy without feeling engulfed, how to do self soothing and mental distraction to calm herself down, how to avoid black-white thinking, how to intellectually challenge intense feelings instead of accepting them as self-evident "facts," and how to remain in the moment instead of escaping into daydreams. Importantly, those skills must be taught by a professional (e.g., in DBT or CBT sessions) and, like piano playing, are skills that a BPDer must acquire on her own. Fixing herself is an "inside job" that cannot be acquired in a couples counseling session.


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## wilson

With the way your wife rewrites history so much, I'm wondering about the CSA. While I think there was something between her and her brother, I wonder how much of it was actually abuse. Obviously it was inappropriate, but there's a big difference between playing doctor and violent rape. I'm getting a feeling that she may be overstating the level of "abuse" to garner sympathy. 

The abuse might be a reason for the lack of intimacy, or she could just be low-drive and is blaming the abuse as a reason. The fact that nothing seems to be her fault and that everyone around her is doing the wrong thing seems to indicate a person who cannot accept responsibility. If there wasn't CSA, I have a feeling she'd find something else from her past to pin all her problems on.

So I think your wife has a lot of problems to work through. It's not just the CSA. She needs to figure out how to play well with others. I get the sense that her problems are such a core part of her personality, it will take a lot to change. Unfortunately, she would need to be the one to want to make that change. You can't force it upon her. For that reason, I think you need to move forward with the divorce but be open to reconciliation. If she really knows she can lose you, that may be the motivation she needs to get better. You have to stop being her enabler.


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## mountain_minds

Well, still married.... Barely.

We had a marriage counseling session that focused on some crazy fighting - I'd say most has to do with the current state of our relationship. Lots of raw feelings. W is hypersensitive to everything I do... I'm trying not to enable and over extend myself. I'm not pushing for sex (though I am usually the initiator) because I basically want her to make a move if she's interested.

She's not really trying, sexually or otherwise. I try to remain patient but do admit to having a hard time with it.

W has displayed usually emotional outbursts that could be BPD or related to her CSA - and or a rape she jut admitted to.

Today after MC, after there was no talk about sex during the session (too focused on the fighting).... I confronted her. Told her I needed a full sexual relationship with her. Told her the MC can't help figure out, this is bigger. That I needed her to see a psychologist that dealt with sexual abuse and problems.
Told her I needed that to stay in this relationship because I have needs that are real. That I'm no longer ashamed to admit I need her to need me and show it. Can't go on like this.

She fell apart and was extremely angry with me. Told me she didn't trust me and all I'd do is what everyone else did: leave. Said the MC was just fine- that my problem was I'm not giving her enough affection and signs I want her. (Likely true, as I'm Leary of sex with her now and the fact I just let her call all the shots before, finally took a stand and admitted I needed more)
Said she's been to shrinks and they don't work. Basically lumped it on me and told her it was my problem. She finally said,"fine, I'll find one". 
And left crying and sobbing and imploring me to leave her alone.

It's clear she doesn't want to deal with this. I told her I'd see the psychologist with her- if that helped. She's angry with me because I have told her this is something I feel so ill equipped to deal with... That I am not sure I can help- and that these problems have caused much dysfunction in our sexual relationship.
I'm not sure shell actually find one, but stall. 

It's hard not to be angry.... Frustrated and sad. 
I'm not hopeful, but I still love this woman... What is wrong with me?

Been looking at Craig's list a lot for an apt to take me and my dog. 
I'll be the ultimate *******, if I followed through with it. I'll be yet another man to give up on her... But maybe my sanity is worth it.

This life is short.


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## Uptown

mountain_minds said:


> It's hard not to be angry....


Again, Mountain, I encourage you to stay in touch with your righteous anger. For excessive caregivers like us, the righteous anger usually is our best chance for escaping from these toxic relationships that are so addictive to us. Moreover, if your W has strong BPD traits, your relationship is not that of a husband/wife but, rather, parent/child. Hence, given her unwillingness to seek therapy and learn how to mature, you would be better off finding a mature woman. At age 39, you should find lots of women from which to choose.


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## Thor

Many CSA survivors have a very deep fear of abandonment. Probably there are many factors playing into it. Parents or other trusted adults who refused or were unable to intervene to stop or punish the abuser. Being told that she would be rejected if people found out about the abuse. Having people reject her when they did find out. Seeing her worth as only being in her appearance or in providing sex, so when she is rejected for sexual issues it confirms her feelings of worthlessness.

Anyhow, whatever the causes are, it does seem to be a very strong fear to the point of being irrational and debilitating amongst many CSA survivors. Which puts you into this loop you're in where her dysfunctions make the relationship unbearable yet you don't want to cause more damage by leaving her, so you stay while the relationship spirals ever downward.

You can only do so much, and then it is time to save yourself. If she is unable or unwilling to do the hard work, you have no further obligation to save her or to sacrifice your life for her.

It is a damn difficult situation to stay in and an even more difficult decision to make when to pull the plug.


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## 3Xnocharm

mountain_minds said:


> *Been looking at Craig's list a lot for an apt to take me and my dog.
> I'll be the ultimate *******, if I followed through with it.* I'll be yet another man to give up on her... But maybe my sanity is worth it.
> 
> This life is short.


NO. No you wont be! You cannot think like that, dont do that to yourself. You cannot fix her, no one can, and YOU are entitled to a real life of your own.


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## BaxJanson

I'm in a remarkably similar situation, only with two kids. I finally left when I was completely wrung dry - the blame-shifting, abuse, and gaslighting had me completely convinced I was evil and insane. I got my own place, and assured her that I wanted to fix things. Spent most of the summer in IC, and spent quite a bit of time talking to the wise folks at a local domestic violence shelter. I read NMMMNG, and decided to incorporate a good deal of it. 

Now, I've gone as 180 as I can with kids, save for weekly MC sessions. I took control of my own life back, and I make sure she knows that there is room for her still in my life - but it will be on my terms, not hers. If that spooks her into heading for the door, so be it - she's free to leave. Until she does, I keep studying, keep myself as strong as I can, and am doing what I am convinced is needed to save my marriage - to be her husband, not her caretaker. Granted, with enabling in-laws still in the picture, I don't have much hope - but I know I'm doing everything I can, doing what I think is best, and if it crumbles around me, I'll still hold my head high.

I'll be damned if it isn't hard, though. My sympathy to you, man.


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## Blossom Leigh

I have a perspective to offer you for her because until she values the impact of what was stolen from her she will not head in the right direction, survivor.
You: Your abusers already took your life from you and now they are taking mine. That is my fault for letting them and I am not ok with that. Are you going to fight this thing or are you going to let them win. I am letting you know up front, I refuse to let them have any more my life. I have to right my own ship. I love you more than you are able to see right now, I truly want you to join me in reclaiming our lives but I will reclaim mine with or without you, your choice. You need to know if you chose not to push back on the damage you will be risking divorce with me. 

Something alkng those lines of she needs to choose health and to neglect to do so at this point is HER choosing to lose you. You ARE tapped out and she isnt the only one who has to survive...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown

BaxJanson said:


> I'm in a remarkably similar situation, only with two kids.


Bax, your 11-year experience with your W does sound similar in many respects to the 9-year experience described by Mountain. I discuss some of those similarities in your latest thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-...177426-gathering-my-thoughts.html#post7914410.


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## mountain_minds

Took some time off, had to travel for work and that has been good for my brain and removing myself from the situation.

My W, the day after our last MC and our blowup involving me telling her she had to seek out professional help to deal with her CSA (and maybe BPD, which incidentally I've not told her I suspect she's suffering from) wasn't really talking to me much.

The next day she came home late from work, didn't say where she was, but said not to wait up for her. She came home later then told me she had made a last minute appointment with our MC. She saw her solo... because of all the fallout following my ultimatum.

She got back late and told me that she was afraid to lose me, and was very calm. She told me that really, she doesn't trust me. 
That she doesn't trust I want to stick around to support her through dealing with her issues. Told me that if she felt I wasn't holding back, it would be easier for her to commit herself fully -but otherwise she can't deal with this problem with someone that's not sure they want to be around to handle it.

It was up to me to decide if I wanted to stay and say I was "all in"

Fair enough.

I told her I wasn't sure. I told her that I was deeply afraid too - that this would never actually get fixed and that I would never feel "whole" in this relationship. That I was afraid she'd never understand what I needed and subsequently would never understand how I've been hurt (unintentionally by her) in this relationship. Or do the work it required.

Told her my mistake was never saying enough early enough. Early on her love did get me through the passing of my twin brother. She got me back on my feet again. Felt that after she did that - I didn't deserve to ask for anything else. (yes Uptown, I know this ties right into the article you gave me)
But I knew for a long time this was broken - I was just too afraid to admit that I was worth it and needed even more from her. That my needs still mattered, despite what she did for me.
My own insecurities hamstrung me.
Today, I am stronger.

So, at this point I know I have to figure out what I can do. A part of me thinks I can.

Then, another part of me thinks she will be incapable of dealing with this rigorously, and this will perpetuate further for years.
Is it all talk to keep me around? Will she really deal with it? And when I ask her to do more, will she understand or think I'm forcing her? Or think somehow she's dealing, when really... it will be BS? 

You know, that little voice in the back of the head..... that I usually know is 95% right.... but I have a fantastic way of ignoring... That little voice says you know this won't work the way you need it to...

My W feels that she can really trust our MC as an IC. She thinks the MC can help direct her down the right path. I told her the MC is there mostly to help us communicate - but this isn't communication - this is dealing with a deep seated problem... that at the end of the day is hers to rectify.
She feels however that this MC can be trusted and that ultimately she would even be a friend to her.
I'm not overly thrilled with the MC myself. I felt I really kicked hard about our marital issues and despite all the evidence, the MC didn't even suggest maybe this was a problem that exceeded MC. I thought her vain, or blind. 

I'm leery. I feel that she's going to do a touch and go on this - tell me she wants to work on it - but never really do the work.
Pose, if you will.
I think the MC is a nice start for her to go one on one with I guess as an IC - but still absolutely believe she needs more than her. I did confront her on this - and basically she said she'd consider that.. if I was all in with her.

So, back on my plate. Heading back home today. Will be interesting to hear what awaits me. I haven't made a choice one way or the other. 
It's clear to me I still love her. But, of course it's at what price. As a friend of mine told me recently.... "you're a young man, you're too young to settle yet"
It's been hard to get honest with myself about what more I can tolerate... and how much more time I want waste on a situation that might not be won. Maybe love is also realizing when you've got to let someone go.


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## doubletrouble

That's a hella tough choice, Mountain. I sympathize, yet I can't offer you advice as it's truly your choice. You have to do the weighing, parsing, selections and the decision. You love her, maybe you can help her, maybe she's going to do this for real or maybe pose. My guess is you can't make this instantly, that it will take time. if she does it for real, maybe you can, too. 

Love also means being there in time of need. But I get the other side, too.


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## BaxJanson

Boy, do I understand that mental push and pull. But one thing jumps out at me:

"That she doesn't trust I want to stick around to support her through dealing with her issues. Told me that if she felt I wasn't holding back, it would be easier for her to commit herself fully -but otherwise she can't deal with this problem with someone that's not sure they want to be around to handle it."

And with that, her getting help, her staying in the marriage, all of it - your fault. Your job to be the one to fix her.

She needs to be fixed, but can't, because she's afraid you'll drop out halfway through? Will that be easier than doing it without you at all? Somehow, that isn't what I'm hearing - I'm hearing something more along the lines of "you just stay with me, and in time, when I learn to trust you again, then I can START to fix myself. Maybe." It's a massive blank check she's asking for. 

I know I'd hesitate to write it out for her, at least without SOME sign of good faith.


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## Thor

mm, what do you think of setting a secret deadline? You can't tell her because she would just pretend for however long you say is your deadline. I'm thinking something like 30 days to get into regular IC, 90 days of sticking with IC, and then another 90 days of working hard on herself. So for about 6 months you're looking to see a strong commitment and strong effort on her part. I don't think she can fake it that long if she is looking to placate you. If she is working hard, she will have struggles and tough days, so you will know she is giving an honest effort.

BTW, if she sees that counselor for IC you should see someone else for MC. One counselor cannot do both.

Trust your gut, too. It could be that too much history has happened to overcome it in your marriage. There's no shame in that. It is not of your doing. You were imperfect but her abuser is the one who brought this h3ll on both of you. She was unable to deal with the effects of the CSA as an adult, which makes her imperfect but not evil. I don't think there is a need to think badly of her in order to come to the conclusion that your needs will never be met in this relationship.

People frequently say after they get divorced that they waited too long. I see this as a good thing because it means they really tried hard to work things out, and they agonized over the decision. Just don't wait so long that you are not honoring yourself in this process if she is not doing her part.


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## Uptown

mountain_minds said:


> She told me that ...she can't deal with this problem with someone that's not sure they want to be around to handle it....Is it all talk to keep me around?


I agree with Bax that this is "all talk" to guilt you into staying around. SoulPotato and 3X gave you the same advice four weeks ago. In addition, your W also is likely setting you up to be the fall guy when, after years of money down a therapy hole, she can claim that she failed only because you didn't support her enough. Your predicament is that, even if she does agree to see a psychologist trained in treating BPDers, it will be EXTREMELY difficult to determine whether she is making any real progress. After all, how would you know? Like smokers who are always quitting every month, BPDers typically show dramatic improvements every 5 or 6 weeks as you hit the uphill side of their endless roller coaster ride.


> Will she really deal with it?


If she is a BPDer as you suspect, probably not. But, if she does deal with it, it will only happen if she wants it very very badly for HERSELF -- not as a tool to keep you home. That is, if she doesn't want it badly enough to do it in your absence, it is extremely unlikely she will do the hard work that is necessary while you remain in the home. In my case, I spent a small fortune sending (and taking) my BPDer exW to six different psychologists and 3 MCs. I paid for weekly sessions that went on for 15 years nonstop. She did it because she knew I would leave her if she stopped therapy. The result was that she only got worse, not better, as the years went by.


> My W feels that she can really trust our MC as an IC. She thinks the MC can help direct her down the right path.


As we discussed earlier, my view is that MC is a total waste of time and money until a BPDer has successfully completed several years of therapy to address her underlying issues. Worse than that, MC will provide her a stage on which to play out her imagined role of always being "The Victim."


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## Theseus

Uptown said:


> As we discussed earlier, my view is that MC is a total waste of time and money until a BPDer has successfully completed several years of therapy to address her underlying issues. Worse than that, MC will provide her a stage on which to play out her imagined role of always being "The Victim."


Not only do I agree with this, but I would take it one step further. 

It's possible that even a psychologist won't do any good helping your wife get over the CSA until the BPD (assuming she has it) is addressed first. Trying to tackle the CSA first would be like trying to fix the engine on a car, but while the hood is stuck closed. You have to first find a way to pop that hood open before you can make any serious repairs on that engine. 

I know that sucks, because that means that her therapy could take twice as long before there are any results.


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## MSP

She's had 8+ concussions?! Well, that's not good. In real life, unlike on TV where people jump back into the action after being knocked out, concussions can cause all kinds of nasty stuff to develop, from personality shifts to mood swings to whatever. I strongly recommend neurofeedback therapy. It will be far more effective than any kind of regular counselling.


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## Uptown

I agree with MSP that a concussion (or any other head trauma like a brain tumor) can result in a person exhibiting strong BPD traits that were not seen previously. It therefore would be prudent for her to see a neurologist for a checkup.


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## Openminded

She needs to heal for HER -- not so you will stay with her. If she doesn't see that then she's not going to be successful. And you aren't going to be happy with her.


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## Blossom Leigh

Openminded said:


> She needs to heal for HER -- not so you will stay with her. If she doesn't see that then she's not going to be successful. And you aren't going to be happy with her.


Could not agree more....

and this is exactly the position I am in with my husband right now.


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## Blossom Leigh

Blossom Leigh said:


> Could not agree more....
> 
> and this is exactly the position I am in with my husband right now.


As a matter of fact one of the things I tell him a lot is "keep your eyes on your own paper."


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## 3Xnocharm

Openminded said:


> She needs to heal for HER -- not so you will stay with her. If she doesn't see that then she's not going to be successful. And you aren't going to be happy with her.


:iagree: This is exactly what it all boils down to.


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## mountain_minds

Theseus said:


> Not only do I agree with this, but I would take it one step further.
> 
> It's possible that even a psychologist won't do any good helping your wife get over the CSA until the BPD (assuming she has it) is addressed first. Trying to tackle the CSA first would be like trying to fix the engine on a car, but while the hood is stuck closed. You have to first find a way to pop that hood open before you can make any serious repairs on that engine.
> 
> I know that sucks, because that means that her therapy could take twice as long before there are any results.


I'm usually an optimistic man. I have always believed that in my life, no problem is too great to be overcome. Hard work, and perseverance can conqueror all - eventually.

this is the first time, in a long while... where I feel I'm up against a wall. The stakes seem so high and yet it seems I'm hooped here. I think I've reached the point where I realize I don't have it in me. And that's depressing.

Not so helpful that W took day off and is "extra" cheerful today. The glimmer of hope springs and I follow it like a dog to fresh meat. Today, anyhow.


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## Thor

Being a Secondary Survivor of child sex abuse is a unique form of h3ll. You're a good man, which is why this is so painful to you.


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## Blossom Leigh

mountain_minds said:


> I'm usually an optimistic man. I have always believed that in my life, no problem is too great to be overcome. Hard work, and perseverance can conqueror all - eventually.
> 
> this is the first time, in a long while... where I feel I'm up against a wall. The stakes seem so high and yet it seems I'm hooped here. I think I've reached the point where I realize I don't have it in me. And that's depressing.
> 
> Not so helpful that W took day off and is "extra" cheerful today. The glimmer of hope springs and I follow it like a dog to fresh meat. Today, anyhow.


same here... saw the reason I fell for my husband last night.. makes it hard to walk away..


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## CharlotteMcdougall

I am going to speak as a woman who have suffered many forms of abuse and developed destructive coping mechanisms as a result.

Your wife has to want to do the work. Nobody can help her unless she is willing to take the journey into the damaged parts of herself. It is scary and painful to do so, but a woman who is responsible and mature will commit to therapy if that is needed to live a happier life in the long run. 

I am slowly learning to let my husband in. I also communicate more effectively when I am angry. I have also thought about what my therapist taught me about self-esteem, the effects of abuse on a woman's psyche and how to trust. When I let my guard down and have fun, the payoff is wonderful. It leads to a closer bond with my husband which is priceless and worth the hours of therapy. 

I'm so sorry that you are going through this. Your wife clearly has some psychological barriers which make marriage very trying. Many sexual abuse survivors will use substances to numb their feelings when they have sex. They are afraid of flashbacks and feeling vulnerable, so they use drugs or alcohol to escape mentally.


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## mountain_minds

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> I am going to speak as a woman who have suffered many forms of abuse and developed destructive coping mechanisms as a result.
> 
> Your wife has to want to do the work. Nobody can help her unless she is willing to take the journey into the damaged parts of herself. It is scary and painful to do so, but a woman who is responsible and mature will commit to therapy if that is needed to live a happier life in the long run.


How much convincing did it take for you to finally see a specialist? Someone that had actually dealt with sexual abuse?

I keep asking and I keep getting told its not going to happen.

Today, I see the MC with my wife. I imagine it will be the last time. I have a very low tolerance for BS today and the happy patty cake game is going to end. If my wife wants to remain with me, it will be because she will see a specialist. Otherwise I've packed some bags, got an old travel trailer ready and I'm set to get the F out. 

I'm so sad that I wasn't strong enough to see how broken she was early on. I'm so mad at myself for letting my insecurities draw me so deep and intertwine our lives so close. But, I know this is something she has to do. And until she does I don't see how I'll remain happy in this marriage.

If my W had agreed to see a specialist, with reservations, or had agreed to see a doctor to check her hormones after I asked (just to check) I might be feeling more open to compromise. But so far, I've been told those things won't happen (because I don't understand, I've been told).

My needs, my life has taken a back seat to what happened to her. I'm not going to wake up in 15 years dealing with the same thing.

Well, reality starts today.


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## Blossom Leigh

mountain_minds said:


> How much convincing did it take for you to finally see a specialist? Someone that had actually dealt with sexual abuse?
> 
> I keep asking and I keep getting told its not going to happen.
> 
> Today, I see the MC with my wife. I imagine it will be the last time. I have a very low tolerance for BS today and the happy patty cake game is going to end. If my wife wants to remain with me, it will be because she will see a specialist. Otherwise I've packed some bags, got an old travel trailer ready and I'm set to get the F out.
> 
> I'm so sad that I wasn't strong enough to see how broken she was early on. I'm so mad at myself for letting my insecurities draw me so deep and intertwine our lives so close. But, I know this is something she has to do. And until she does I don't see how I'll remain happy in this marriage.
> 
> If my W had agreed to see a specialist, with reservations, or had agreed to see a doctor to check her hormones after I asked (just to check)  I might be feeling more open to compromise. But so far, I've been told those things won't happen (because I don't understand, I've been told).
> 
> My needs, my life has taken a back seat to what happened to her. I'm not going to wake up in 15 years dealing with the same thing.
> 
> Well, reality starts today.


All the very best to you...


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## Thor

mountain_minds said:


> I'm so sad that I wasn't strong enough to see how broken she was early on. I'm so mad at myself for letting my insecurities draw me so deep and intertwine our lives so close. But, I know this is something she has to do. And until she does I don't see how I'll remain happy in this marriage.


I can't remember if you've read the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy". Anyhow, I am a recovering Nice Guy myself, and it seems to be quite a common pairing, the Nice Guy and the CSA survivor. It is a Perfect Storm when it happens.

I was not able to see how dysfunctional things were, and I blamed myself for whatever mysterious thing I must have done to cause her to have such difficulty with me. I did not stand up for myself early in the marriage and demand MC. Though I had no idea she had suffered CSA, it was painfully obvious there was something very wrong with the dynamics in our marriage. Had she been willing to go to MC or had she confided in me way back then, things would have been very different. Better? Idk, because I was not well equipped myself due to being raised a Nice Guy.

Don't beat yourself up too badly for your failings. You did the best you could at the time. You learn and you grow and you move forward. That's all that can be asked of anybody.

People seem to need to hit rock bottom before they feel a deep need to take on difficult changes. Perhaps your wife will see this as a rock bottom. Perhaps not. You have to take care of yourself at some point, so don't feel guilty for setting these boundaries. You've done a lot already.


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## mountain_minds

Well, the day after our last MC session....

I came in loaded for bear. I started off the bat asking the MC why she didn't think that my W needed to see a specialist in CSA. 

Told MC that the elephant in the room is this CSA and/or related issues that got us here. Explained that I was frustrated that we never seem to talk about it, we only go into the subsequent infighting we are currently dealing with.

Told MC that I know MC is to help us learn to communicate better, to get us to share feelings and understand our spouse better. But that as far as I knew, the CSA that happened to my W wasn't related to our marriage. That no matter how good we got at communication, this issue is still there. That I had a hard time understanding, no matter how healthy it was for us to communicate better, how that was going to get us through.

Explained to the MC that I've been upfront about this issue from day one of seeing her. That I frankly didn't see how we were going to address it. Seems we see her every two weeks, and skim off the top of the fresh crap going on, but never get into the meat of what is really happening. Told the MC it was frustrating to know this huge problem was there, but felt little was being done to address it. Which is why after my second to last MC session, when my W and I got home I demanded she see a specialist to deal with her CSA, because I didn't see how MC was going to make it happen.

MC got a little defensive. She asked me if I trusted this process. I said, no, not when I don't know what the process is. That I don't have a road map for your plan of action. I told the MC that she might know how she wanted to proceed, but I was given no clue to how that might be. I re-iterated that the CSA was the very reason why we were here. Our relationship issues formed around that problem.

Basically, then we talked about trust. I told the MC that I didn't trust that my W fully wanted to find a way to heal herself so we could have a full sexual relationship. This was in conjunction with my W not trusting me that I wanted to see us through therapy.

Told W and MC that I felt I was being asked to sweep away the years of history I had of being a good H to my W. That I went overboard and attempted to win her love and affection by being a good man. And when it didn't work, I was hurt. I felt that I was being asked to forget that - but my one-time fling wasn't to be forgotten. (not trying to say it was right, morally - because it wasn't at all)
I was being told often by my W and MC to forget the past and move on. Tried to explain that I was being told to forget my hurt - in trade not to forget hers.

I was very agitated.

MC then said a few things. She said she would be happy to recommend a specialist. She said that's fine. MC said that she at this point doesn't want to dwell on the CSA as not to "re-traumatize" my W. That she'll talk about it, then pull back. MC said that was her approach, because in her mind no good would come from a full emersion and therefore re-introducing my W back to her darkest pain with intensity.
She did say her plan was to get us to be on the same page on if we even wanted to trust each other enough to carry through the process. 

MC said she felt at this point it was better to re-establish this trust first. Then work down to the CSA. MC said her whole spiel with "shame" from Brene Brown was to give us the vernacular to begin to feel comfortable discussing this hard subject.

My shame with my affair. My W's shame on her outlook on sex.

Ok.

So, MC then asks me a fairly powerful question. She asked me if I did once trust my wife. And of course I said yes. I told I trusted that she would take care me too... and if I loved her hard enough, that would make her see what I needed too. Then, when it didn't... when I couldn't win back her love, affection and sex, things went wrong.
MC asked me if I felt like I failed. And I just broke down. Of course I did! I felt like a complete failure for not being enough for my W. For all the current transgressions. Everything.
I bawled. She hit a nerve. 

MC said you're not a failure, you couldn't make your W do anything. But that she can see how badly I was hurt. How it eroded my ability to want to expose myself further. She said that's a hard thing, to carry around...

She made my W observe this, and asked her how she felt about what I just said. And of course she was very sorry, and didn't mean to hurt me etc. 

I felt like someone hit me with a bat.

At the end, I didn't know what to say, or do. I was subdued.. Conquered even.

My W insists she wants to work on these CSA issues. That it will happen. That it will be slow. But she will, because she doesn't want to lose me.

I told W that I was pretty broken after trying to hard earlier in our relationship and now I had to find it within myself to trust her completely. I was having a hard time with that.

So, I guess that's where I am. I'm going to try to take a leap of faith and see where this process goes... And try to be open. Try to trust that my W will really move forward. 
I am going to set a 6 month timer though. I want to see if we have indeed made improvements. If my W indeed has worked to address this issue so we can have a full, real, relationship.

If not, I guess at that point I will have known I did indeed give it my all. That I should have no reservation about that. And I can release myself from our marriage with the knowledge I gave it my very very best. And went in with trust that my W would work on herself to make us better in the end.

I guess it's all I can do. I'm done vacillating for now. I'm almost too tired to do anything else.


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## Uptown

mountain_minds said:


> MC asked me if I felt like I failed. And I just broke down. Of course I did! I felt like a complete failure for not being enough for my W. ...I bawled.


As I've been saying for five weeks, MC is an utter waste of time if -- as you suspected five weeks ago -- your W has strong BPD traits. A BPDer will simply use MC sessions as a stage on which to play out her role as "The Victim," portraying you as the cause of her every misfortune. Telling her that you feel like a failure for being unable to meet her needs -- an impossible task -- simply reinforces her false self image of being that eternal victim.


> I felt like someone hit me with a bat.


You were beaten up, of course. What else can occur given that all of your W's underlying issues are off the table in MC?


> I'm going to try to take a leap of faith and see where this process goes... Try to trust that my W will really move forward. I am going to set a 6 month timer though.


Trust her to "move forward"? Why? What effort has she made over the past five weeks to find a good psychologist to see? Has she made any effort to consult with a neurologist to determine if the 8 concussions caused lasting brain damage? Sounds to me like you're just going to waste another six months being abused by her.


> MC then said ...she would be happy to recommend a specialist.


A recommendation from the same MC who told you to ignore the past and move on? As I did five weeks ago, I recommend you see your own psychologist or psychiatrist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you're dealing with (e.g., with dysfunctional behavior caused by brain damage, as MSP suggested on 4/4, or BPD caused by childhood trauma as you suspected). 

If BPD is a strong possibility, it is important that you consult with your own psychologist, not hers. Therapists generally are loath to tell a BPDer -- much less tell her H -- the true name of her disorder (for her own protection). This is why it is best to see a psych who is ethically bound to protect YOUR best interests, not hers. Her therapist is NOT your friend. Relying on your W's therapist for candid advice during the marriage would be as foolish as relying on her attorney for candid advice during the divorce.

If your psych believes the symptoms sound more like brain damage he will recommend a good neurologist. If he believes BPD is more likely, he will give you the name of a good psychologist who specializes in treating it. Importantly, skill sets vary greatly among individual psychologists, as is true for any profession. It therefore is important for your W to see a professional who has the training and experience necessary for treating whatever problem she has. Do you live near a large metro area where you have a large number of psychologists from which to choose?


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## mountain_minds

Uptown said:


> As I've been saying for five weeks, MC is an utter waste of time if -- as you suspected five weeks ago -- your W has strong BPD traits. A BPDer will simply use MC sessions as a stage on which to play out her role as "The Victim," portraying you as the cause of her every misfortune. Telling her that you feel like a failure for being unable to meet her needs -- an impossible task -- simply reinforces her false self image of being that eternal victim.


It didn't quite go that way. My W took ownership that she hurt me and her actions played a part in this. She displayed genuine emotion that she let me down, and that she never meant to hurt me. Hard not to respect that? She certainly did step out of the victim roll. 



Uptown said:


> You were beaten up, of course. What else can occur given that all of your W's underlying issues are off the table in MC?


Well, maybe not in the order I prefer. I have heard from the MC and my W that they indeed want to get to this subject, the issues. The problem is the trust she wants in me that I'm not going to say, "screw it, this is too much I'm out of here" if it gets too thick... Part of me can understand that. MC did say that once we open this up further IC can be a possibility. I think the MC does as not to scare off my W. I think she wants to deal with the CSA at least, but it's a scary thing to do. 
This is the first step I've ever actually seen her take, so I will see how many more she will try. Baby steps?



Uptown said:


> Trust her to "move forward"? Why? What effort has she made over the past five weeks to find a good psychologist to see? Has she made any effort to consult with a neurologist to determine if the 8 concussions caused lasting brain damage? Sounds to me like you're just going to waste another six months being abused by her.


It's been a slow effort. And yes, extraordinarily frustrating. The fact she's been in the counsellors office and is telling me she wants to deal with these issues is a good start... But I want action too. If we go another month or two and we still haven't gotten to her behavior, then clearly I know I'm wasting my time. I've heard the words, I need the action. It's hard to deny someone that says they want to work on themselves for you. Of course, the actions are what matter most, and that is what I will put my ultimate stock on. I won't deny that my W hasn't had adequate time to seek out help. But you talk like a mentally well person. My W is not. If she had her sh*t together this would have been dealt with a long time ago. I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt a touch longer. She says she's willing... For her it's about trusting who she talks with about this stuff. I'll see how it plays out.



Uptown said:


> A recommendation from the same MC who told you to ignore the past and move on? As I did five weeks ago, I recommend you see your own psychologist or psychiatrist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you're dealing with (e.g., with dysfunctional behavior caused by brain damage, as MSP suggested on 4/4, or BPD caused by childhood trauma as you suspected).


I'm doing as you suggested. I'm trying to find one that will take on a visit like that (one already said candidly no via the phone) but I've got several others I'm working to choose from. I guess the end result is if she has BPD or brain damage from concussions it matters not, right? It matters if I want to stick it out. I'll do it as more information is better than less. 

We don't live near a huge city, but I have about 8 PSYs to chose from. Working on that.

I'm not thrilled with how everything is going -but I am pleased to hear the words she wants to work on this. The MC's technique is not my favorite. But, my W seems engaged with her. I've heard a lot of promises. I wait for action. I'm not writing my wife a blank check... But I will try to see this through. I think I will know well in advance if there is something to salvage in our marriage before 6 months. If I don't see her taking ownership and responsibility for her behavior, and if she continues to blame me - then I have an answer don't I?

I'm willing to bet 1/2 a year of my life on that. This, is not perfect. I can't "make" her do what I want her to do. I will see how it plays out. But thus far I've seen more reaction as of late than I've ever seen. 
My hope is that once she sees the light, the more she will understand that she has to look into these options of IC for herself, if she indeed wants to make this work as she says. If she doesn't... then I will know how to proceed.


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## tom67

It's good you are setting a time limit on this and it sounds like you will stick to it.
I wish you the best either way.


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## Uptown

mountain_minds said:


> I guess the end result is if she has BPD or brain damage from concussions it matters not, right?


Perhaps not, Mountain. I really don't know enough about brain damage to know how successful treatments are for it (e.g., where they train people to use other parts of their brains to compensate for what was lost). I do know that brain damage can cause strong BPD traits to be exhibited by folks who never had it earlier. This is an important issue to discuss with the psychologist/psychiatrist you see.


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## mountain_minds

Uptown said:


> Perhaps not, Mountain. I really don't know enough about brain damage to know how successful treatments are for it (e.g., where they train people to use other parts of their brains to compensate for what was lost). I do know that brain damage can cause strong BPD traits to be exhibited by folks who never had it earlier. This is an important issue to discuss with the psychologist/psychiatrist you see.


Uptown, if I did suspect my W had traits of BPD... how do I broach that? What is the best way to do that if I want her to get treatment?
Seems a catch-22.


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## Uptown

mountain_minds said:


> Uptown, if I did suspect my W had traits of BPD... how do I broach that? ...Seems a catch-22.


Yes, it is a catch 22. You likely will fail to motivate her to work hard in therapy NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO. This is sad because, in the larger cities, wonderful treatment programs are available for BPDers. As I said earlier, these therapy programs teach BPDers a set of skills that -- like piano playing skills -- the person must want very badly to learn, or it just won't happen.

At the BPD sites targeted to abused spouses like you, the universal recommendation is that you NOT tell the BPDer your suspicions. Instead, simply encourage her to see a good psychologist and let the psych decide what to tell her. If you tell her you suspect strong BPD traits, she almost certainly will project that accusation right back onto you -- with the result that she will immediately be convinced YOU are the BPDer. This is one reason that the psychologist likely will not tell her the name of her disorder if he determines she is a high functioning BPDer.

I've not seen any statistics on the prevalence of self awareness among BPDers. My best guess is that perhaps 3% of high functioning BPDers have sufficient self awareness to realize they are exhibiting strong BPD traits when someone brings it to their attention. I'm guessing, then, that you have about a 3% chance of her being receptive to your views if she is a HF BPDer. Importantly, if she is receptive to a psych telling her she has strong BPD traits (assuming that occurs), it is _great news_ because it means she is over the biggest hurdle that blocks BPDers from seeking treatment.

To be willing to tolerate therapy for several years, however, self awareness is not sufficient. The BPDer also must have sufficient ego strength to stay in the program long enough to make a real difference. Sadly, most self-aware HF BPDers lack this ego strength. They may go to BPD forums to complain about their BPD traits but won't do the hard work needed to bring them under control. I therefore would guess that only about 1% of HF BPDers have both the self awareness and ego strength needed to do well in treatment.


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## mountain_minds

Uptown said:


> Sadly, most self-aware HF BPDers lack this ego strength. They may go to BPD forums to complain about their BPD traits but won't do the hard work needed to bring them under control. I therefore would guess that only about 1% of HF BPDers have both the self awareness and ego strength needed to do well in treatment.


That's uplifting...lol

Maybe I'll go live in a van down by the river!


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## Uptown

mountain_minds said:


> That's uplifting...lol Maybe I'll go live in a van down by the river!


I'm not trying to be uplifting but, rather, to tell you what was at the end of the path I pursued. It did not end well. I spent over $200,000 on therapy for my BPDer exW in weekly sessions that went on for 15 years. She was treated by six different psychologists and three MCs, all to no avail. Didn't even make a dent in her behavior. 

At the end, she was so resentful of my inability to make her happy, and so fearful of abandonment as she saw me growing stronger, that she had me thrown into jail for three days on a bogus charge. Once she had me dragged away in handcuffs, she immediately obtained a R/O (which courts hand out to women like candy to children) barring me from returning to my own home until the divorce was finalized.


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## Blossom Leigh

I think it is a risk to blanket all personality disorders... trauma residual plays out in different ways, as well as genetics and environment. I think the time limit is smart, though six months is REALLY short... mine is a year. THOUGH you know yourself best. Any longer than this is VERY expensive.

She MUST learn to carry her own emotional weight
Target unacceptable behaviors and keep their destructiveness out of your space with boudaries.
Take good care of yourself

My best tools so far have been ACOA, CoDependency No More and Out of the Fog, and Boundary books by Townsend. 

Out of the fog gave me the definitions of the behaviors I had to target, ACOA gives me the self care and grieving unresolved trauma, CoDependency No More helps me carry my own emotional weight AND ask others to carry theirs with boundaries that came out of the Townsend books. Truly hope you find solace...


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## scientia

mountain_minds said:


> I feel like a failure for not being stronger. And a failure for going outside my marriage. But, I am human. I think we all have our breaking points. I think I missed mine years ago and there may be no going back.
> 
> I love my wife. But I'm not sure I'm supposed to go through this to live life. It has to be easier than this.


I might suspect that she has borderline personality disorder.


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