# How to stop ALL Passive aggressive behavior including silent treatment?



## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

What are some techniques, tips, mindsets to adopt, etc to stop myself from being passive aggressive/manipulative including giving my wife the silent treatment? 

If you are given the silent treatment please be as specific as possible and tell me exactly how you would want me to handle my problem with you differently so that you felt loved and how it makes you feel when treated that way. 

Perhaps the answer is simple "State your issue tenderly always" comes to mind

Please help!


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

Nothing to add except to bump - I find myself doing this as well (in my case, I don't trust myself not to say something stupid, plus my wife is very insecure/immature, so bringing something up to her is like dealing with a hormonal teenager).


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

realize that each moment is a new opportunity and that you do not need to be a slave to things in the rearview mirror


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Learn why you are PA and deal with your underlying causes/issues.

Here is a good article that can help you figure yourself out. It is helping my husband, but no change is overnight. It will take years to undo those automatic behaviors, fears, reactions, etc. and for him to be a different man. Even if your wife doesn't have the energy to stick around for years, you will still be doing yourself and your next "love" a huge favor by stopping PA behavior and by just learning to "be" honest and not defensive in every interaction.

The Boomerang Relationship:
Passivity, Irresponsibility 
and Resulting Partner Anger

Lynne Namka, Ed. D. © 1998


One of the hardest patterns of behavior for all of us to deal with is passive aggressive behavior. Passive aggressive behavior happens when the person avoids responsibility and attempts to control others to keep them away through his passivity and withdrawal. It is a dynamic born of fear of being controlled, fear of confrontation, hidden anger and an inability to deal straight with people.

Passive aggressive behavior is complex and takes many forms. We all have passive behavior that comes up when we don't want to deal with conflict directly or do a task. We all hedge, fudge and remain noncommittal on issues some of the time. That's normal. It's only when repeated passivity creates severe issues for others setting up continual tension and anger in the household that it becomes a serious problem that should be addressed. Common examples of this habitual, passive retreat style of dealing with confrontation and stress include:

The person who says one thing but means the opposite.
The man who acts passive but aggressively gets his own way by not doing what is wanted.
The boss who squelches his anger then strikes out indirectly. (Perhaps by withdrawing.)
The woman who says yes when she means no; then gets cold feet and refuses to follow through.
The teenager who agrees up front then doesn't do what he agreed to.
The client who schedules an appointment but does not show up.
The person who fears self assertion and confrontation, but says no by sidestepping responsibility.
Anyone in the family who creatively gets out of doing his or her part of the chores.
The Mr. Nice Guy who puts on the sweet face to agree, then does what he darn well pleases.
The student who procrastinates with studying and does poorly in school.
The parent who refuses to discipline the children and insists on the spouse being the ‘heavy.'
The bored housewife who refuses to clean the house or cook for her family.
The person who refuses to hear criticism, discuss his problems or read books about the issue.
The dad who pushes one child hard but allows the other child to get out of responsibility.
The not ready to be committed man wanting someone there for him but feels entitled to his freedom.
Any individual who spends his effort into under achieving in school, in relationships and in life!
What all of these people have in common is that the significant people in their life become very, very angry at their resistant behavior. The negative energy in the relationship boomerangs from one partner to the other resulting in an unhappy relationship.
While women can have passive aggressive behavior, this condition is more typically found in men, therefore this article will focus on the typical male version of this dynamic. The typical passive aggressive man has not worked through his anger and power issues with his parents so he replays them in current relationships. His anger comes out in passive way of avoidance.

Psychologist, Scott Wetzler, in Living With the Passive Aggressive Man: Coping with the Personality Syndrome of Hidden Aggression From the Bedroom to the Boardroom, discusses the dynamic that sets up passive behavior. There are many childhood set ups for this way of coping but most often there is a domineering mother and a father who is ineffectual. Or there may be a passive mother who gets out of responsibility by her helplessness. There are power struggles in the marriage with one parent backing off and withdrawing. The boy feels trapped between choosing loyalties at home. He is afraid to compete with his father who is absent either physically or emotionally or perceived as being inadequate. In the typical mother dominant-father passive relationship, the boy learns that the job of being a man in relationship is to escape the woman's needs and subsequent demands.

The young boy is not allowed to express his feelings and develop a sense of self. He wants his mother's attention and care yet he resents her continual intrusion. His anger grows but he cannot express it so it becomes submerged and is expressed in an unconscious ‘You can't tell me what to do.' He is not allowed to get his way by direct confrontation and competition so he learns to displace his anger through resistance. He learns to use charm, stubbornness, resistance and withdrawal to protect himself in power struggles. He rebels by becoming moody, being an underachiever or developing behavior problems. His self protectiveness and duplicity from the squelched anger and hostility becomes a habit that he plays out with other women he meets. He desperately seeks a woman to meet his needs of being accepted for who he is, but puts her off with small, continual acts of rebellion. He replays the distancing drama of his original family In the relationship.

Agreement, Resistance and Hidden Hostility as Major Characteristics

The man with passive aggressive behavior needs someone to be the object of his hidden hostility. He needs an adversary whose expectations and demands he can resist as he plays out the dance he learned from his parents. He chooses a woman who will agree to be on the receiving end of his disowned anger. He resists her in small ways setting up a pattern of frustration so that she gets to express the anger that he cannot.

The biggest irritant in being with a passive aggressive man is that he doesn't follow through on his agreements and promises. He dodges responsibility while insisting he's pulling his weight. He procrastinates, takes on big projects but doesn't finish them then feels put upon or hostile if someone else tries to finish it. He often ignores reality as to his irresponsibility and withdrawal. He denies evidence, distorts minimalizes or lies to make his version of reality seem logical.

He uses vague language to sandbag the partner. Inconsistency and ambiguity are his tools of choice. He often gives double messages and expects his partner to read his mind and meet his needs saying ‘She should have known how it is.' He withholds information and has a hidden agenda. He can't take criticism and makes excuses to get himself off the hook. He sulks and uses silence when confronted about his inability to live up to his promises, obligations or responsibilities. When he doesn't follow through, he puts the blame on his partner so he doesn't have to take it and accuses her of having the problem.

The man with this type of pattern shows little consideration of the time, feelings, standards or needs of others. He obstructs and block progress to others getting what they want and then ignores or minimalizes their dissatisfactions and anger. He is silent when confronted as he has never learned to compromise. He may be a workaholic, a womanizer, hooked on TV, caught in addictions or self-involved hobbies.

He may have multiple relationships with women as a way of keeping distant from one fully committed relationship. He is confused about which woman he wants and stays caught between the two women in his life not being able to commit fully to either. He is confused and can't understand why the women get so angry with him. He feels others demand too much of him so resists in overt and subtle ways and feels deprived if must give in to others. The man who copes with conflict by not being there has strong conflict over dependency. He desperately wants attention but fears being swallowed up by the partner. He can't be alone and live without a woman in his life, but can't be with partner emotionally. He's caught in a Catch 22--wanting affection but avoiding it because he fears it as his destruction. He resents feeling dependent on the woman so must keep her off guard. He makes his partner feel like a nothing through his neglect or irritability but he keeps her around because he needs her. His script is ‘Be here for me, but don't come too close and don't burden me with your needs or expectations.'

He has such strong fears of intimacy deep in his unconscious mind so he must set barriers up to prevent a deep emotional connection. He is clever at derailing intimacy when it comes up by tuning out his partner and changing the subject. He must withhold part of himself to feel safe and may withdraw sexually. Closeness and intimacy during sex may make him feel vulnerable and panicked bringing forth his deepest fears of dependency upon a woman. The passive aggressive man lives an internal loneliness; he wants to be with the woman but stays confused whether she is the right partner for him or not. He is scared and insecure causing him to seek contact with a partner but scared and insecure to fully commit.

Due to the wounding from childhood, he is unable to trust that he is safe within the relationship. He fears revealing himself and can't share feelings. His refusal to express feelings keeps him from experiencing his sense of insecurity and vulnerability. He often denies feelings like love that might trap him into true connection with another human being. He feels rejected and hurt when things don't go his way but can't distinguish between feeling rejected and being rejected. He pushes people away first so he won't be rejected. He is often irritable and uses low-level hostility to create distance at home. The relationship becomes based on keeping the partner at bay. He often sets up experiences to get others to reject or deprive him. He is noncommittal and retreats, feeling put upon and burdened by partner's requests for more closeness. He becomes a cave dweller to feel safe.

The man with passive aggressive actions is a master in getting his partner to doubt herself and feel guilty for questioning or confronting him. He encourages her to fall for his apologies, accept his excuses and focus on his charm rather than deal with the issue directly. He blames her for creating the problem and keeps her focused on her anger rather than his own ineptitude. When backed into a corner, he may explode and switch to aggressive aggressive behavior then switch back to passivity. He keeps his partner held hostage by the hope that he will change. He may appease her and clean up his act after a blow up for several weeks, then it's back to business as usual.

The passive aggressive man is the classic underachiever with a fear of competition in the work place. He cannot take constructive feedback from others. His fear of criticism, not following through and his inability to see his part in any conflict keeps him from advancing on the job. He may take three roles on the job or switch back and forth between them.

l. The yes man who is afraid to express his opinion then is secretly angry,

2. The boss or co-worker tyrant who thinks he's perfect and tries to discredit or eliminates anyone who threatens his power,

3. The victim who is failure prone due to his lack of initiative, follow through and self sabotage.

How the Woman's Needs Contributes to the Unhealthy Dynamics of the Relationship

Passive aggressive behavior does not happen in a vacuum; it requires a partner to bounce things off of. This problems exists between people--one who resists and one who get frustrated. The need for a woman to choose and remain with a passive aggressive partner is a dynamic that is set up in her childhood. The little girl learns this pattern in childhood observing her parents. One parent withdraws and frustrates the spouse who becomes angry. The little girl learns to take care of others and get depressed when they don't appreciate it. Desperately she wants the parents to change but cannot express her deep frustration.

When she grows up, the woman unconsciously chooses men who will play out the familiar patterns of her childhood of retreat and attack. She falls for the man's charm, his neediness or sense of poise and togetherness and ignores his real lack of connection with others. If the man's hostility and withdrawal is left unchallenged, the woman's doubt in herself grows. His failures become her failures. The harder she works on the relationship, the cleverer he is in eluding her. Her life is in continual uproar as she mulls over the inconsistencies in daily events. He feels threatened and insecure and withdraws, she gets angry. She gets angry, he withdraws and the unresolved conflict boomerangs between then. Relationships, which do not allow straight talk, frankness and appropriate expression of anger become destructive.

The woman living with a passive aggressive man goes back and forth between three roles--the Rescuer, the Victim or the Manager. Living with the passive aggressive man pushes the woman into frustration and anger as a major dynamic in day-to-day conflict. When she cannot get her needs met, she becomes the Blamer, the *****, and the Rager, which then makes the man feel very insecure in the relationship. She is caught in her role as a martyr-victim, codependent rescuer or controlling manager as she does not know how to do anything different. She rides the emotional roller coaster as she always wants more from her man--more commitment, more cooperation and more doing what he says he will do. Her self-esteem erodes as her frustration and anger turn to rage as she feels guilty about the intensity and destructiveness of her aggression. She may repeat choosing passive aggressive men in several relationships until she learns how her own neediness sets her up for relationship failure.

Refusing to Bounce the Boomerang Back: Your Role in Limit Setting and Talking Straight

While it is difficult to be a partner of a man who continually frustrates you with his passive aggressive behavior, there are some things than a woman can do to break into his noninvolvement pattern. When the partner understands the problem and attacks it with determination using straight talk, some of the man's irritating behavior can change. Depending upon the severity of the passive aggressive stance, small inroads can be made. However, there is no easy cure for this life long habit.

Here are some ideas for fair fighting which work with all types of personalities but are especially helpful for dealing with passive aggressive behavior. This approach works for both the withdrawing partner or the defiant teenager. Note--this is no easy task--it takes hard work to be direct and straight to the point at all times. Remember YOU ARE NOT HIS THERAPIST--DON'T TRY TO ANALYZE HIM--JUST SET THINGS STRAIGHT WHEN THEY GO OFF TRACK, THEN DROP THE SUBJECT AND GET ON WITH YOUR LIFE.

Watch how you hook in. Observe your unrealistic expectations for him to change. Don't demand more than he can willingly give. Hire out projects you think he won't carry through on. Get realistic--try to figure out where he can realistically change and what is set in stone for him.

Set firm limits for yourself. Stick to them like glue. State them repeatedly. Use ‘I messages' to share feelings of disappointment. Don't protect him from your unhappy feelings. Accept no excuses when he says he couldn't help it. Tell him that it is a choice he made. Tell him how his behavior injures or affects others. Ask him if he would like to be treated this way. When he says he forgot, point out that he remembers things that are important to him. Ask him how he would feel if you forgot to do things important to him.

Pick your fights wisely. Choose your stand wisely focusing the most important things. Overlook his neurotic traits but intervene on those behaviors that are most irritating to you.

Look at your own passive style of avoiding conflict. Watch how you blow off the important things and blow up at small things. Own up when you use passivity to avoid conflict. If he throws it back at you say, ‘This is not about you turning it back on me when I'm honest about my own shortcomings. We are trying to identify patterns that are unhealthy for us. Notice your need to blame me when I'm trying to be straight.'

Make an agreement of ‘No trash talk' when arguing. Stick to one subject. Don't allow the argument to go off track. (This is not about ___, we're discussing ___) Agree to take time out to cool down and return to the topic. Learn stress management techniques to handle your anxiety during the time out period. Read articles on fair fighting to ways to resolve conflict.

Encourage him to make decisions--accept whatever you can during this time of building his confidence about committing himself on small matters. Whenever possible be noncritical of his actions. When you must criticize, be critical of his behavior, not him. Wild recriminations and threats only make him retreat more to his cave of isolation and anger.

When he doesn't follow through and says, ‘I can't,' remind him that it means he won't because he doesn't feel like doing what is asked. Ask him to be more honest and say that he doesn't want to do what you asked. Point out the lack of effort when he is unwilling to do something boring or disagreeable. Make fewer demands on him and only ask for what you absolutely need.

Point out how he distorts the truth and discounts problems that he creates. Use gentle, direct confrontation. Don't humor, placate or make excuses for his behavior. Challenge double messages and ambiguous plans. Point out his indirect, non answers and sitting on the fence statements. Pin him down on his confusing the issue to save his skin. When he says, ‘You know how I say things I don't mean.' Confront him with ‘How do I know which half? When you give me mixed messages I get so confused that I don't feel loving and close to you.'

Point out his victim messages. He may beat himself up first so you will feel sorry for him and won't punish him. Show how his self-defeating talk clouds the issue of his not completing his responsibilities. Praise him in areas he does do well often to build up his self-confidence. Stress your commitment to the relationship and how it could be good for both if the two of you work out a process of dealing with conflict. Discuss his fears of being dependent upon you and how that's related to rebellion. Watch how you invade his privacy and undermine his decision making. Ask him how what you could do to make him feel safer. If he refuses to acknowledge his fears, remind him that we all have fears and fear is constructive in that it helps us learn about ourselves. Tell him that the mature person faces his fears rather than denying them. The only way to deal with fear is to face it--fears faced can be overcome. Tell him, ‘The next time you feel like you are being swallowed up, just watch your feelings. Face them. Sit with them and they will pass.'

When he blames you for not trusting him or says he can't trust you, point out how he has betrayed your trust in the past. Tell him trust must be earned and you would like greater trust between the two of you. Ask him for a plan to build trust (doing what he says he will do, stop saying yes when he knows he won't get around to doing what you want, etc.)

If he flares up and blames you when you give information, ask him to look at his feeling put down when given information. Point out his pattern of needing to sulk and how that makes the problems worse. Tell him, ‘I feel the hostility in your walling yourself off. There is nothing we can't talk about. We can work this out if we keep it on the table. Let's talk.' Point out the positive benefits of feedback and criticism as something he can learn about himself. Be willing to receive feedback and criticism yourself. Redefine the relationship as being open to hearing unpleasant things that will promote positive change. Together, learn ways to cope with the unpleasant feelings that being criticized brings up.

Call his attention to every attempt to manipulate or control you through anger. His anger is expressed through withdrawal, sarcasm, irritability and intimidation. Tell him, ‘People who are constantly angry have a lot of fear. Let's try to figure out what pushes your anger buttons to bring our power struggles out in the open. Show how anger unexpressed may go underground and fester.

Take an anger management workshop together to learn to express uncomfortable feelings in safe, appropriate ways. Bring his submerged rage out into the open by saying, ‘I sensed some hostility in how you dealt with this issue. Could we explore this together?' Convince him it's okay to be angry Allow him to be more direct. Learn tactics of fair fighting and using anger in constructive ways.

Learn to deal with your own anger in appropriate ways. Observe your anger reactions, which fuel his determination to out wit you with passivity. Nagging and reopening the subject make things worse. Drop it and move on. Remember that the incorrect expression of anger is at the root of both his and your issues. Your choice daily is to state your anger in direct, firm, fair ways.

Challenge the silent treatment by saying ‘When you refuse to talk with me, I get upset. Both of us angry is poison for our relationship. When you don't talk to me, I make wild assumptions that further distance us. We are two intelligent people who can talk this out. What do we really want in our relationship--angry silence or problem solving?' State consequences when he refuses to negotiate and compromise. Get a reality check from someone you trust on options for consequences. Follow through on consequences.

Ask for compromises as a way for the relationship to win. State your compromise, ask him for his. Insist on his making an offer to resolve the problem if he doesn't like your ideas. Keep the focus on problem solving. Point out that true partnerships work with each other as focused allies working on the issue. Sing the Beatle song, ‘You see it your way, I see it my way, we can work it out. We can work it out!' Demonstrate how his nonclosure of a chronic problem and his noninvolvement affects him, you and the relationship. Keeping pushing the concept that the two of you can overcome any problem.

Don't dwell on disappointment. Don't take his refusal personally--see it as learned behavior, which he uses to avoid confrontation. Learn stress management techniques to deal with your own hurt and sense of betrayal. Take a meditation or yoga class to learn deep breathing to deal with stress. Learn to observe your own disappointment rather than wallowing in it.

Take courses on couples communication. Go into marriage counseling with someone who understands this passive aggressive man--angry wife dynamic. If he refuses, get help in understanding your own need to continue in an unhappy relationship.

Take responsibility for your peace of mind. Get your own life.

If you are expending much time and energy in relationship damage repair then you need to face some hard questions. Honestly ask yourself, ‘Am I seeking intimacy from a man who is incapable of closeness? Am I expecting cooperation and compromise from a man who cannot give it? Is this man workable? Is he putting energy into behavior change or does he put his effort into avoiding his problems?' If the above suggestions don't work and you are constantly upset and raging at him, take a good look at your need to live with conflict. If you have done all you can do to correct the situation with no avail and it is affecting your health, consider leaving. Or accept that things will not change and try live a happy life anyway.

Perhaps the hardest skill in life for all of us is to deal with arguments and conflict in productive ways. It's hard to be straight and acknowledge our irritation, frustration, anger and hostility. Yet dealing with conflict up front is a challenge that can increase self-esteem and help us lead healthier lives.

Most of us didn't learn how to settle disagreements from our parents and very few of us take a course in conflict resolution and problem solving. Investing some time and energy in anger management and safe anger expression will pay off in benefits tenfold. In the long run, how the man works out his conflicts about his dependency needs and misdirected anger and how the woman learns to counteract passive aggressive behavior determines the success of their relationship.

Straight communication is where it's at in having a happy life. In a mature relationship both partners interrupt their aggressive and passive aggressive stances and deal with each other in direct ways. Straight communication brings out a depth of intimacy that is comforting and nurturing for both.

Resources:

Living With the Passive Aggressive Man: Coping with the Personality Syndrome of Hidden Aggression From the Bedroom to the Boardroom, Scott Wetzler, Ph. D. Simon & Schuster, New York, ($10) l992.

I Don't Want to Talk About It: Overcoming The Secret Legacy of Male Depression, Terry Real

How Can I Get Through to You?: Terry Real


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

Tell your wife not to buy into your passive aggressive manipulative tactics because that only reinforces and enables you.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Seek a good therapist that help you look at your past. I believe that your reactions now to situations are more than likely the same as they were as a child. You probably learned to stay silent (maybe feeling you could not say anything) but inside you were angry and you wanted justice so revenge became your justice. As a child you probably learned maybe thru play with your siblings that all you had to do to win control over them was to ignore them. It takes very little for a habit to be repeated successfully for it to become a habit for life. Changing it takes a great deal of awareness. You have to tap into the truths about yourself, your family and your reactions to situations. 

Did you have a sister that communicated for you so you became dependent on others to communicate for you? Did you cover your tracks with a smile on your face a a lie to your partners for behavior you knew they did not approve of? Yet did what you wanted behind their back because no one was going to tell you what to do? Can you see your habits as a child that have developed into the same as an adult?

I have been with a passive-aggressive man for 27 years and from my side of things he lacks a great deal of honest open communication. Everything is a cover up, nothing is forth-coming, there is no working to together or mutual agreements, there is no support. It is like he feels entitled and feels that he can act like this because he is a "man." I have wondered the example his father had on him, as I saw alot of the same in him, he too ignore his wife. To ignore anyone is disrespectful and so inconsiderate. How does that help anything in a marriage?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

My father was a sulker. My wife stopped him from ever sulking again for the rest of his life.

She expressed sympathy to him because his long face had given him carpet burns.

He roared with laughter and the sulk was forgotten.


But every time he tried subsequently he remembered what she's said and start to smile or even chuckle.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

What are you being passive-aggressive about?


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I don't know much about passive aggressive, I don't have to deal with it much.

In my opinion the silent treatment is a power trip for the user. And about control. I guess you need to find why you need to feel those things so badly that you're willing to ruin your relationships by using them. Therapy will probably help.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

Mclane said:


> Tell your wife not to buy into your passive aggressive manipulative tactics because that only reinforces and enables you.


I'm going to continue being an assh0le. Please just deal with it. 

OK.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

I just reviewed your life through your thread titles, mr discussion starter. I remember you. Do know your wife is gone? That she doesn't love you or respect you any more? 

It's OK. It happens to most of us. But you need to learn from your issues that drove her away. Fix yourself. It's hard to admit you were not perfect, maybe not even very good at husbanding. But make lemonade out of it. Become a better person. For you.

Good luck. I was broken. I lost my wife because of it. But I learned from the experience and am now a better man than I have ever been.

But she's still gone. Unfortunately, that's the way it's going to be for a while.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

MachoMcCoy said:


> I just reviewed your life through your thread titles, mr discussion starter. I remember you. Do know your wife is gone? That she doesn't love you or respect you any more?
> 
> It's OK. It happens to most of us. But you need to learn from your issues that drove her away. Fix yourself. It's hard to admit you were not perfect, maybe not even very good at husbanding. But make lemonade out of it. Become a better person. For you.
> 
> ...


Even if I am not as convinced as you, I place a very high likelihood that you are absolutely correct. 

If this was a more active newer thread because of the absoluteness of your opinions, I suspect some other members might PM me that you are over the top (like I am frequently) and that I should make up my own mind about it not being over until its over. That being said, I think you are probably right.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

When your wife is mad, or upset, or brings something to your attention... ALWAYS REMEMBER it is not about you. It is NOT an attack on you. It has nothing to do with you and you being a bad or not good enough person. That is the mindset that you need to keep. And then listen to her, and understand where she is coming from. Do NOT: defend, deny, or try to disprove her. 
Remember she is your wife, and you need to respect her opinion. It is not a debate, it's not your wrong she's right situation. You guys are on the same team and when there is a problem you tackle it TOGETHER. You don't attack or disprove each other. 

It's about respect. Her opinions deserve acknowledgement. Defending, denying or ignoring (silent treatment) are the most disrespectful, rude things that you can do Bc it's saying she's wrong, she's not worth it to address the issue, and it will leave her more angry, feeling unloved, like u don't care how she feels, and overtime she will completely lose respect and love for you. 
Trust me... Women can be annoying and full of complaints and problems BUT you want us to come to you Bc that gives you the opportunity to help us through a problem which when done well (conflict resolution) makes the couple stronger. What you don't want is for us to go to another guy. Most of the time what us women want is just acknowledgement and support and feeling understood and cared about.


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## Síocháin (Mar 11, 2016)

I am married to a PA (diagnosed) but he doesn't think so. This post is from many years of experience.

If your wife asks you what is wrong because of the silent treatment, TELL her. And it is going to be hard to do because the concept of actually saying what you mean is going to be new. I imagine you were not allowed to express your feelings in a healthy way growing up & why you are here. Also, take responsibility for YOUR actions. Do not blame shift. Honestly, I know I have my issues, but being blamed for EVERYTHING all the time makes it hard to figure out what I'm actually doing wrong or could be doing better. And I want to take responsiblity or how else can I change or work on my issues? PAs rarely say "I was wrong". If they do, there is usually a but attached to that. I was wrong for ________, but it's because you ________. Crazzzyyyyyyyy, so please don't do that.

If she tells you how she feels, hear her. Don't rationalize, make excuses, or gaslight her. She needs to be able to tell you her feelings & you acknowledge that SHE is feeling these things. I have been told that what I was feeling was "wrong" before. I gotta tell you, that was something that I didn't even know how to respond to. And as another poster commented, it's not about you. These are her feelings and she is entitled to have them. Just like you are entitled to yours.

If you say you are going to do something, DO IT. Here is the thing, if you don't want to do it, say how you feel. Say no. I had much rather be told upfront than wait 2 weeks & then get told I forgot or haven't done it YET. That makes you untrustworthy and unreliable.

And finally, don't talk about her behind her back & stand up for her when others do. Believe me, she will find out. This PA behavior is devastating for a SO. It's very hard to come back from that. You feel like you don't matter and realize the person who is supposed to love & protect you thinks so little of you.

AVR1962 is so right. Get to IC & preferably with someone who is experienced with PA behavior so you can't bull***t your way through it. Then after a few sessions, get into MC with your wife if she is willing at this point. Hopefully, she is in IC now because I imagine she feels like she has been living in an alternate universe.

Recognizing your behavior is really a huge step. Most don't. It's their way or the highway & they are always right. So, I commend you for that. Now, get to IC ASAP. Wishing you the best but please get help regardless. It will make you a better person for future relationships if it comes to that.

ETA: I am in IC & working on my issues before anyone roasts me for not taking responsibility for my actions. My H says he doesn't have a problem and I have no idea what I'm talking about. Thought I would add that.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Oh man. 

Where to start.....

Look. All those posts above are correct. But they won't register until you truly come to know yourself first. 

I'm not sure how PA you are, or what level of PA black belt you have. Do you go silent out of fear of confrontation; a means of avoidance? Or are you bat shat nutso like I was, using PA techniques to punish. 

The first thing you need to do is truly and honestly ask yourself why you go silent? You need to Self reflect. And don't lie to yourself. The fact that you even posted this topic means you know something needs to change. You've just taken the first step up your personal Kilimanjaro. 

I'm impressed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Oh yes. 

Go see an IC if you need. They will guide you where you need to go. That's what they do. 

I didn't use councillors. I read a bunch of books. Then did a lot of thinking. Then sat down and thinked some more. Then more thinking. And after that, even more thinking. 

But it took a long Fkn time. And a lot of mistakes. And then more time. Then Tons of self reflection and some serious soul searching.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

STEP 1? 

When something is wrong. SPEAK?

STEP 2? 

Self check for manipulation as motive for behaviors, STOP and choose a path that is loving an supportive? 

STEP 3?

Understand lots of things have nothing to do with me so DONT PERSONALIZE things as slights? 

How did I do?


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## Tortdog (May 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> When your wife is mad, or upset, or brings something to your attention... ALWAYS REMEMBER it is not about you. It is NOT an attack on you. It has nothing to do with you and you being a bad or not good enough person. That is the mindset that you need to keep. And then listen to her, and understand where she is coming from. Do NOT: defend, deny, or try to disprove her.
> Remember she is your wife, and you need to respect her opinion. It is not a debate, it's not your wrong she's right situation. You guys are on the same team and when there is a problem you tackle it TOGETHER. You don't attack or disprove each other.
> 
> It's about respect. Her opinions deserve acknowledgement. Defending, denying or ignoring (silent treatment) are the most disrespectful, rude things that you can do Bc it's saying she's wrong, she's not worth it to address the issue, and it will leave her more angry, feeling unloved, like u don't care how she feels, and overtime she will completely lose respect and love for you.
> Trust me... Women can be annoying and full of complaints and problems BUT you want us to come to you Bc that gives you the opportunity to help us through a problem which when done well (conflict resolution) makes the couple stronger. What you don't want is for us to go to another guy. Most of the time what us women want is just acknowledgement and support and feeling understood and cared about.


First, absolutely a great post. I have just recently really appreciated this in my wife. 

One thing. You mention that the wife needs to feel safe to come to the husband for help. However, I have heard more than once that she does not want advice but just someone who will listen. Maybe the "listening" can also be defined as that help you mention. 

Thoughts?


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## Tortdog (May 2, 2016)

alphaomega said:


> Oh yes.
> 
> Go see an IC if you need. They will guide you where you need to go. That's what they do.
> 
> ...


So would a visit to a counselor have shortened the journey?


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Tortdog said:


> First, absolutely a great post. I have just recently really appreciated this in my wife.
> 
> One thing. You mention that the wife needs to feel safe to come to the husband for help. However, I have heard more than once that she does not want advice but just someone who will listen. Maybe the "listening" can also be defined as that help you mention.
> 
> Thoughts?




Absolutely 100% true. Most of the all I want is for my husband to just understand what I'm saying, and offer me some kind of verbal support. Then follow up with saying... Is there anything I can do? And the answer is always no but just that interaction can make me feel so much better and I really really appreciate it.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

thread the needle said:


> STEP 1?
> 
> When something is wrong. SPEAK?
> 
> ...


STEP 4 Do a pettiness self check when ever I feel slighted and adjust thought pattern to something healthy and positive

Anyone? I am looking for specific bullet points to stop the madness of PA habits. 

I use PA to punish and to avoid discussion

Please help. 

I don't have an issue speaking up if I choose to. I do not want to choose PA any more and I do not want to use PA to punish. 

It's destroyed my marriage


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Martyrs exhibit martyr complexes. That is their nature. It's a personality type. You have to learn to tune it out. It's all about them and that crazy movie about them starring them, in their own head. But I will say that I believe, I truly believe that many little girls are reared from an early age to be this way. It's of a type.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

thread the needle said:


> STEP 4 Do a pettiness self check when ever I feel slighted and adjust thought pattern to something healthy and positive
> 
> Anyone? I am looking for specific bullet points to stop the madness of PA habits.
> 
> ...





thread the needle said:


> STEP 4 Do a pettiness self check when ever I feel slighted and adjust thought pattern to something healthy and positive
> 
> Anyone? I am looking for specific bullet points to stop the madness of PA habits.
> 
> ...


Oh bud. It's not that easy. But your mind is in the right place. 

You'll make some mistakes. You had a lifetime of behavioural response to counter. 

Here's a step by step guide. I'm not a councillor so maybe take this with a grain of salt if you find its not working. 

Step zero. Drop all the self regret you are feeling about being a PA and how things are messed up now. Accept the fact that you are flawed, you may have did some strange or bad things in the past. No ones perfect. But now it's about moving forward. Becoming a better person. Remember the past for what it needs to be about...wisdom for the future. 

Step one: Go find a hill, or climb your roof, and feel the wind and sun on you. Then think of all the times you felt slighted. Then think of all the reasons in your head WHY you did. Then write them down. Keep doing this for a while until you see a pattern. But don't bullshat yourself. This is your self reflection 

Step two: Go to the gym 3 times a week. If that bores you, then join an MMA class or something exciting. Nothing clears you head like a good kick to the chops. You need this to make your body better. Focus on a goal. A YOU goal. And get in good shape. It's good for the mind. 

Step 3: this is where it gets hard. Because you'll regress out of instinct. If something happens to trigger you, take a deep breath. Pause. Clear your mind. Recognize the pattern from your journal. Then take a good look at the situation at hand. Did it warrant a feeling of the anger and punishment you just regressed to? Nope. Never does. 
Then remember this: start "talking". Do those steps you mentioned above. Be calm. Clear. Consice. Understanding. 

Now it gets even more tricky. Sometimes, anger may be the right reaction. Disengage if you need to and get calm. Then come back and reengage later. Ie. Don't regress to avoidance. 

And here it gets even more tricky. Being calm and understanding doesn't mean to turn into a pushover. Otherwise you trade one bad dynamic with another. If you've been PA so long you forgot what your boundaries are, go climb your roof again and take your journal. You need this to understand when your spouse has a legitimate concern you can resolve, or if she's being an unreasonable witch. Hey, it happens sometime. 

Step 4: sometimes you just need to shrug your shoulders at a situation that, in the past, would trigger you. Shrug, and say "whatevs. Yeah. I can be a dumb azz sometimes. I can see why you can think that from this situation." Shrug it off, because in 8 hours she won't even remember the situation. But with PA, you make her live it out for days and days. 

Welcome to a journey of self reflection and growth, friend. 


Ok. I probably missed some stuff in there. 

That will be 200 dollars please. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

You only missed one thing, brother. 

A clear understanding that anger is not a primary emotion, and actually stems from typically either fear or hurt, is necessary. Understanding which of those two led to the anger is pretty important. 

An otherwise a fine job!

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

People are pa when they are afraid to be direct, usually because of the consequences. 

What consequences are you afraid of, OP?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

thread the needle said:


> What are some techniques, tips, mindsets to adopt, etc to stop myself from being passive aggressive/manipulative including giving my wife the silent treatment?
> 
> If you are given the silent treatment please be as specific as possible and tell me exactly how you would want me to handle my problem with you differently so that you felt loved and how it makes you feel when treated that way.
> 
> ...


Ok.. this is coming from a couple that doesn't do the silent treatment at all. I could not live with this...

This is generally how we handle conflict.. sure there may be moments where I get really mad.. slam a door.. momentarily am pi$$ed and think I want to run off in a huff.. I may even TRY to ignore him.. but I can't do it.. (and that's NOT a bad thing!)

Basically I am utterly miserable until we come back together.. and start talking it out.. He is the same .. he feels one of the biggest communication issues is *pure stubborness*.. someone wants to be "RIGHT"..wanting the other to "cave" first...so they stop talking...waiting for the other to give in, playing mind games. This only causes each to feel shut out, misununderstood, resentment starts to grow .... all sorts of ugly things. 

I always appreciate when he comes over to me.. humbles himself saying he doesn't want us to be fighting, he does say it tenderly.. with an olive branch..... or when I can't bear it any longer.. and go crack the door open.. he'll get this smile on his face.. and I'll tell him I am so pathetic I cant even stay away from him.. we have even laughed ... 

..And we start talking.. deep talking.. this always leads to us making up.. coming to a better understanding..

My advice.. *just be HUMBLE*.. come to her with a humble attitude wanting to hear her out.. show you care.. you want to listen.. and work through whatever it is.. 

This gets a lot more complicated when you are dealing with 2 "defensive" people...each insisting on their own way... in such cases.. a compromise.. or some meeting in the middle needs to be found.. hashed out.. I think this is a great article on healthy communication...

PLANTING THE SEED OF INTERDEPENDENCE ? Imagine Hope Counseling Group



> 1. *Interdependent couples accept the need for them to change and take ownership of their own issues*.
> 
> They do not blame their partner or others for their problems, nor do they assume the role of a victim. Interdependent couples are able to realize what their issues are on an individual level, and are dedicated and motivated to working through their issues, regardless of what their partner has chosen to do. They recognize when their issues are being brought into the marriage, and are dedicated to their own growth and recovery.
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think one reason people stop talking is because they don't feel they are listened to, anyway. 

It is kind of like a boycott.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> I think one reason people stop talking is because they don't feel they are listened to, anyway.
> 
> It is kind of like a boycott.


This is part of it. As a recovering PA douche, it also can stem from behaviour you have expressed is a problem that never changes.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> This is part of it. As a recovering PA douche,* it also can stem from behaviour you have expressed is a problem that never changes.*
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Agreed.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

jld said:


> I think one reason people stop talking is because they don't feel they are listened to, anyway.
> 
> It is kind of like a boycott.


Yes, if it is a case where they normally do talk but there are some people who who not express themselves. These are the people that you feel you are having a one-sided conversation with, it feels like you are trying to pull information out of them because they aren't offering it.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

PA Douche. 


I like it. That's my new nick name.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mclane said:


> Tell your wife not to buy into your passive aggressive manipulative tactics because that only reinforces and enables you.


In fact, ask her to CALL YOU OUT when you do it. My DD25, a psych grad student, simply says to my H when he does something, "I don't deal with passive aggressiveness; if you want something, say so. If you're unhappy, say why. Until you do, I'm going to behave as if you didn't say or do anything."

As for what it feels like to be the victim of PA, it is frustrating, strangulating, and robs us of any control - because the person doing it will never ADMIT to doing it, erego he/she isn't really doing anything wrong, right?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

katiecrna said:


> Absolutely 100% true. Most of the all I want is for my husband to just understand what I'm saying, and offer me some kind of verbal support. Then follow up with saying... Is there anything I can do? And the answer is always no but just that interaction can make me feel so much better and I really really appreciate it.


Remember that the word 'safe' is key here. When women are married to men who have to be right, who won't discuss issues, who put the woman down or make fun of her, who raise their voice to win...that man becomes unsafe to her. He stops being her best friend, the one she discloses things to. 

And that can carry over into other issues. I stopped asking my H for help bringing in the groceries years ago because when I did, he'd either sigh dramatically or say 'just a minute,' which would turn into 10, 15, or 30 minutes - passive aggressiveness. It became a proving point that I didn't matter to him. He became unsafe, i.e. he became the source of my pain. So to avoid the pain, I withdrew; I stopped asking for help. He never noticed of course, but every time I go shopping, I think of it and like him a little less.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

thread the needle said:


> What are some techniques, tips, mindsets to adopt, etc to stop myself from being passive aggressive/manipulative including giving my wife the silent treatment?
> 
> If you are given the silent treatment please be as specific as possible and tell me exactly how you would want me to handle my problem with you differently so that you felt loved and how it makes you feel when treated that way.
> 
> ...


The answer is simple, and you already mentioned it.

If it is difficult, ask for some space. It is acceptable, for me anyway, a break to cool off. Evaluate your thoughts and emotions then express your feelings tactfully.

Silent treatment is a killer and one of the main issues I had with ex-wife. Things were left overnight and unresolved, it bred resentment. Just my opinion anyway.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Usually giving someone the silent treatment has to do with an inability to handle conflict. I've been known to not necessarily give people the silent treatment, but I tend to retreat from conflict. It takes some work on yourself, to stop that behavior. First, finding out why you have a hard time dealing with conflict. Once you do that, then your options will be more natural in how to respond to your wife when disagreeing/arguing, instead of offering the silent treatment.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

turnera said:


> Remember that the word 'safe' is key here. When women are married to men who have to be right, who won't discuss issues, who put the woman down or make fun of her, who raise their voice to win...that man becomes unsafe to her. He stops being her best friend, the one she discloses things to.
> 
> And that can carry over into other issues. I stopped asking my H for help bringing in the groceries years ago because when I did, he'd either sigh dramatically or say 'just a minute,' which would turn into 10, 15, or 30 minutes - passive aggressiveness. It became a proving point that I didn't matter to him. He became unsafe, i.e. he became the source of my pain. So to avoid the pain, I withdrew; I stopped asking for help. He never noticed of course, but every time I go shopping, I think of it and like him a little less.


Tunera is speaking of a different type of silence (or withdrawal). I too in the end of my marriage withdrawing much like Tunera, I had given up and to me it was not worth it anymore. The communication had been so bad for our entire marriage and I had spent the entire union trying to get him involved. I am the upbeat, "let's do something" type so in the beginning this was easier but with time I really realized he had no desire to spend time with me and accepted it and just did things by myself.

To me, there is a difference in behaviors and why people become silent. Some to do so to think things thru, I know I do that, and once I have thought something thru and have my thoughts formed I then talk about them. This is not about control or exclusion or out of anger, although something hurtful could have been said that made feel like thinking things thru before speaking. I don't think this is unhealthy.....I think you do have to say something like, "I have to have some time to think things thru but do want to talk later about this."

Then you have those who ignore and give you the silent treatment out of their own insecurities as far as being able to confront issues, conflict avoiders. Even among avoiders I think you have different levels of avoiding conflict. You have those who sit at a dinner party and will not get involved in controversial issues as you do not want to be part of the debate....me. Then you have those who will tell lies to please, pass blame to cover their tracks, do not present information because they know it might not be received well and this is what I consider to be a problem. It is not being honest with others or oneself.

Then you have those who go silent to control and to play with your head and these I call the true passive-aggressive people of the world. Their behavior for silence was learned as a child, more than likely in a home where they could not speak the truth or what they felt. Instead of dealing with that hurt in a way that would be beneficial to their health they turn it into anger and then from anger they seek revenge but their revenge has to be silent because they know that anything they do wrong will get them in trouble. They are pleasers too usually but it is surface pleasing.

Dealing with a husband who cannot talk openly about any subject, will present nothing (only to have his drinking buddies or coworkers to be laughing about his actions later), lies about his actions, passes off blame, acts agreeable to a subject but then does not carry thru or does something completely different than agreed. You learn what pleases him and what does not even without him telling you as his behavior changes....he will leave a room or his face will get glim and then he starts ignoring and he will not speak a word to you for weeks on end. You will have to be the one to pry his hurts out of him and then you are not guaranteed the truth as I am not sure he is really in touch with his own feelings. Meantime though besides being ignored he will have to do vindictive acts to show he is angry at you, like a child. This might be forgetting a dinner party you were both invited to, forgetting you needed a ride to the doc, throwing his dirty gym clothes in the clothes hamper where normally he would wash them himself separately, joking about you in your presence among friends and making it look funny, throwing you under the bus to your kids and saying, "your mom doesn't want you to do _____." and not showing a united front to the children. I could go on and on. I lived it for 27 years. This type of behavior is deeply ingrained and anyone who recognizes this behavior needs help. A spouse can be extremely patient and understanding BUT with a true PA person their spouse becomes a whipping post, they are the person they are closest too and this person will have to take responsibility not only for the relationship but for his/her sadness and anger. It is a sick and twisted way to live. Unfortunately the PA normally cannot see it as they truly feel the spouse is responsible.

One time in marriage counseling husband was asked about his communication with his first wife. Husband told counseling that I was much better at communicating than his first wife. I then said to the counselor that he thinks that all communication should be from his wife and that he has no part. Counselor agreed and said this was part of the problem, he sees no responsibility to reply, to respond, to communicate, to be a part....life with husband is not on mutual terms. It is about him and his life is centered around him, that is it, plain and simple.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

katiecrna said:


> Absolutely 100% true. Most of the all I want is for my husband to just understand what I'm saying, and offer me some kind of verbal support. Then follow up with saying... Is there anything I can do? And the answer is always no but just that interaction can make me feel so much better and I really really appreciate it.


I believe you speak for 90% of us women in this post. 

I heard a public speaker once say there are only 3 things a man needs to know how to say to a woman to have a great relationship:

1. Tell me more.
2. That's awful/outrageous/unfair. Those people are horrible/ ridiculous/unreasonable, etc.
3. I am on your side.

So true. I was sitting beside my husband when the speaker said "There are three things men need to learn to say..." and not knowing what he would say next I whispered to my husband "Tell me more..." 

To the OP - even if your wife is complaining about you at the moment, she will feel so much better and so much more loved if you just listen and let her know you understand. (Opposite of the silent treatment.)

On the other hand, the silent treatment, telling her why she should just relax and not care about whatever is concerning her, telling her why she should not feel as she does, being defensive or going on the attack as a defense will leave her feeling frustrated, unheard, and unloved.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

I wanted to share something I was reading: "The passive-aggressive man fears intimacy [emotional closeness]. In the honeymoon period you are more accepting of the man and his quirks, even if he runs hot and cold emotionally, making seductive promises that you belatedly realize he never kept. You notice these lapses but you are willing to understand. Then you begin to feel the crunch of his heels, especially when his secretary calls to postpone dates for him or when he calls you at 1:00 a.m. to casually chat about his day. You start wondering what does he want from this relationship? He seems interested, yet he is not really there. Then you realize you know little or nothing about him; or his stories seem to conflict. Or he avoids intimate revelations that usually come out of a simple informative exchanging conversation."


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

My wife is passive aggressive and it drives me nuts. I'm the type of person if something is bothering me I want to deal with it and talk right away. My wife will let it simmer, she'll withdraw, sit far away from me on the couch, go to bed at 8:00 PM instead of staying up and cuddling on the couch after the kids are in bed. I know something is wrong and ask her "what's wrong? Clearly something is bothering you", she of course insists everything is fine. 

I then get more PA behavior or silent treatment for a day or two until finally she screams and let me know what I did, which is typically something completely imagined. She's convinced her friend is going to "steal me" because she's going through a divorce and broke up two other marriages in her lifetime, and if I so much as look at her I'll get this crap. I've asked my wife to just not have her over the house because me not even making eye contact or acknowledging her is weird. Last time she claimed I was looking at her feet... It's nuts in my house.

I would give anything for my wife to just talk to me without the days worth of drama every time, it's exhausting.

OP if you do this crap to your wife she's going to leave your ass so get your **** together and knock it off.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

You said it right @knobcreek it's exhausting. Trying to communicate on the daily basis with my husband is becoming exhausting, and I find myself just not caring and saying... I just can't do this right now. I'm too busy and tired to deal with your bullsh*t and your horrible communication Problems.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

knobcreek said:


> ...She's convinced *her *friend is going to "steal me" because she's going through a divorce and broke up two other marriages in her lifetime, and if I so much as look at her I'll get this crap. I've asked my wife to just not have her over the house because me not even making eye contact or acknowledging her is weird. Last time she claimed I was looking at her feet... It's nuts in my house.


Holy Whiskey Tango Foxtrot! Your wife is bat-sh!t crazy!

That reminds me of when I was a teenager. I lived with my dad who had a live-in girl friend who would do things like take the last piece of bread from the bread basket at dinner and give it to my dad "here you can have this!" like it was some big gift. THEN five minutes later after he ate it she would say "Joe! You ate that *whole* thing?!" in a tone like "How could you be such a selfish pig?"

I was 16 sitting there thinking...why did she give it to him if she didn't want him to eat it? WTH?

Crazy. 

Why on earth does your wife have a friend who breaks up marriages over to the house? I'd turn the tables on your wife and say you don't like her being friends with a woman of such low moral values. How can you trust your wife when she's hanging out with a home wrecker?


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

WorkingWife said:


> Holy Whiskey Tango Foxtrot! Your wife is bat-sh!t crazy!


Yeah she's pretty nuts...



WorkingWife said:


> Why on earth does your wife have a friend who breaks up marriages over to the house? I'd turn the tables on your wife and say you don't like her being friends with a woman of such low moral values. How can you trust your wife when she's hanging out with a home wrecker?


It's because her friend is seemingly so nice, you would never expect she apparently has a married man fetish, it seems to be what she dates exclusively.



katiecrna said:


> You said it right knobcreek it's exhausting. Trying to communicate on the daily basis with my husband is becoming exhausting, and I find myself just not caring and saying... I just can't do this right now. I'm too busy and tired to deal with your bullsh*t and your horrible communication Problems.


That's what I do, I call her on it immediately then stop talking to her until she can act like a normal human being. Going through days of torture trying to guess what you did wrong is something I don't partake in anymore, I just do my own thing while she stews.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

I am glad to see this thread, and that @alphaomega came and posted! It makes me happy to see someone who has an issue with being PA acknowledging it and trying to make changes! I lived through this twice, and it sure makes life miserable when there is absolutely no need for it to be. 

What I noticed as one of the biggest problems, is that both my PA ex's took every...single...little...thing... personally! Everything was seen as an attack. There was no way to approach with the smallest criticism or advice without it being taken as a personal affront. I mean lets face it, none of us are perfect...but God help you if you bring that to a PA's attention! Hell, even things that had nothing to DO with them was taken personally...if you say something like, "you know, I really never have liked this floor in the kitchen, maybe we can get that updated soon." For some reason this is seen as a personal attack on your PA partner! 

So, @thread the needle and @alphaomega, keep up the good work!


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

knobcreek said:


> Going through days of torture trying to guess what you did wrong is something I don't partake in anymore, I just do my own thing while she stews.


Good for you. It will be very unfortunate for your wife and marriage when you get to the point that you prefer life when she is stewing so you can go about your business w/out having to deal with her. Hopefully she will grow up before then.

My H is not a "crazy man" like that at all. My belief is that he would go silent on me and stew more to "teach me a lesson" that "life is better when he is happy so I best not do anything that disrupts his little universe" (like say I want to let my nephew come visit for a week while his mom is out of town on business.)

After the 3rd "silent treatment" of our marriage (usually the "stewing" would last 2 or 3 days). I realized I simply did not want to be married to a person so selfish and unpredictable and I told him never again or I'm gone. And I meant it because I really would rather be alone that living with a person who sulks and stews and tries to make the home environment miserable. He has never done it sense and never shows any indication that he will.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

3Xnocharm said:


> What I noticed as one of the biggest problems, is that both my PA ex's took every...single...little...thing... personally! Everything was seen as an attack. There was no way to approach with the smallest criticism or advice without it being taken as a personal affront.


This is the biggest thing I've learned in these threads - that they really are taking this stuff personally, as an attack, and feeling defensive.

Maybe my case is different, but when my H used to act this way I had the impression it was just to control me. He wasn't "hurt" by my criticism, he just didn't want to deal with it.

I felt it was an attempt to put me emotionally off balance so I would "know better" than to ever bring up anything that disrupted his world. I felt he was trying to "train" me to just go along with what he wanted so he would not have to make allowances for me when my desires conflicted with his. Or to teach me that it "wasn't worth the effort" to criticize or question him.

As long as everything was going exactly his way, life was great for us. The second something disrupted the flow of things, he dropped into a funk. 

Even every day stressors like bad traffic. We live in southern CA at his desire. There is going to be traffic. Duh. Hello??? Why does that mean we have to become frustrated, rude, and irritable?

I have a relative who never married. She dated a guy for awhile and something came up where he got really angry about something small. She said she never wanted to see him again after that. Her sister and I were talking and said maybe she just over-reacted. But now I'm thinking -- when a grownup throws a fit over something small, that's a definite red flag about their personality in general. If my H passes before me and I ever find myself in the dating world again, I am going to pay close attention to how the guy handles minor frustrations. If the waitress spilling his water is going to ruin our entire night, there won't be another one...


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

WorkingWife said:


> This is the biggest thing I've learned in these threads - that they really are taking this stuff personally, as an attack, and feeling defensive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You are describing my husband. It's exhausting. It is his world and I am just living In it. He takes everything personal, even when it has nothing to do with him. I will make valid points and he constantly says well that's hurtful, but never responds or addresses what I say. I tell him all the time don't respond to my comments with adjectives (hurtful, crazy), and actually respond with a purposeful response. Talking to him is worse than talking to a wall.

I agree about the control and manipulation. I feel like he punishes me when I question him or bring things up to him that he doesn't like. Then he likes to turn it around and act like I am the controlling one. It's such a crazy f*cked up mind game. But to give him the benefit of the doubt, I honestly don't think he knows what he is doing. How he acts and responds is so reflexive, it's like he can't control it and does it out of habit.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> You are describing my husband. It's exhausting. It is his world and I am just living In it. He takes everything personal, even when it has nothing to do with him. I will make valid points and he constantly says well that's hurtful, but never responds or addresses what I say. I tell him all the time don't respond to my comments with adjectives (hurtful, crazy), and actually respond with a purposeful response. Talking to him is worse than talking to a wall.
> 
> I agree about the control and manipulation. I feel like he punishes me when I question him or bring things up to him that he doesn't like. Then he likes to turn it around and act like I am the controlling one. It's such a crazy f*cked up mind game. But to give him the benefit of the doubt, I honestly don't think he knows what he is doing. How he acts and responds is so reflexive, it's like he can't control it and does it out of habit.


It takes maturity to set aside emotion and just concentrate on the substance of what is said. Many people simply cannot do it.

You may feel he is controlling, and he may feel the same about you. It usually feels that way to the person giving power to the other person in the relationship. And two people can do it at the same time without realizing it. Each is looking to the other to meet their needs.

Try to work on developing emotional independence. Be willing to be the leader and demonstrate how to focus on substance and not take every last thing personally. Maybe he will catch on. 

If nothing else, his emotions will bother you less. You will not be handing over all that power to him to hurt you anymore.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

It drives me nuts Bc I don't understand WHY he takes things so personal. But Its exhausting. I feel like we can't have a normal intelligent conversation on the day to day basis. 

My windshield has a crack in it. I told him on text I guess I'll take it tomorrow to get it fixed. He said to me... That's really hurtful. I was like why?? And he said Bc I always take care of the car things and now it's like your saying that I don't do it so now you have to. !!!!what!!!!! My response... I don't have time for this ****. It is so exhausting having to spend 10 mins explaining to him that I didn't say that, and I don't think that and that he needs to read my texts more literal, Bc I am very direct and there is never any underlying alternative message or meaning.
And btw this conversation took place when I got work and I was busy and it's so annoying having to deal with this behavior all the time.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> It drives me nuts Bc I don't understand WHY he takes things so personal. But Its exhausting. I feel like we can't have a normal intelligent conversation on the day to day basis.
> 
> My windshield has a crack in it. I told him on text I guess I'll take it tomorrow to get it fixed. He said to me... That's really hurtful. I was like why?? And he said Bc I always take care of the car things and now it's like your saying that I don't do it so now you have to. !!!!what!!!!! My response... I don't have time for this ****. It is so exhausting having to spend 10 mins explaining to him that I didn't say that, and I don't think that and that he needs to read my texts more literal, Bc I am very direct and there is never any underlying alternative message or meaning.


He misinterprets you because he is insecure. He sees and hears everything through his insecurity.

I am sure that is exhausting for you.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

katiecrna said:


> You are describing my husband. It's exhausting. It is his world and I am just living In it. He takes everything personal, even when it has nothing to do with him. I will make valid points and he constantly says well that's hurtful, but never responds or addresses what I say. I tell him all the time don't respond to my comments with adjectives (hurtful, crazy), and actually respond with a purposeful response. Talking to him is worse than talking to a wall.
> 
> I agree about the control and manipulation. I feel like he punishes me when I question him or bring things up to him that he doesn't like. Then he likes to turn it around and act like I am the controlling one. It's such a crazy f*cked up mind game. But to give him the benefit of the doubt, I honestly don't think he knows what he is doing. How he acts and responds is so reflexive, it's like he can't control it and does it out of habit.


I agree it probably is a habit, and some things are instinctual - like acting all wounded as a way to not have to take responsibility for his actions. And I know EXACTLY what you mean when you say it's like talking to a wall. That is the #1 thing I cannot take - not being able to make a connection. My H would pull the "wounded" stunt, but he will also make jokes, change the subject, say he doesn't feel good, etc. Do anything to distract me from expecting him to have an open conversation.

He is trying and has gotten much better though. I have been doing my best to follow the marriage builders principles and expect the same of him. And other than that, I just say the truth, completely dead pan showing no sympathy for his "hurt feelings" with phrases like:

I am really unhappy.
I'm sorry if the truth hurts, but that is how I feel.
I don't like being married to someone who _____.
I am happier without you around than with you here in a bad mood.
It's unfortunate your feelings are hurt but I am no longer willing to _______.
I literally feel pain and tightness in my chest when I try to talk to you and you _______.

I don't make a big deal out of it and I try to stay calm and factual, but I say "mean" things (like the above) to him that I never would have said in the past, and he is treating me much better than he ever did before.

The truth is I have been very weak in the past in that I hated to see him disappointed, so I always did what he wanted. I think I really spoiled him! It is still very hard for me to say NO to him about anything he wants, but I had a little talk with myself and decided that he is a grown man and I don't want to be married to someone who can't weather small disappointments. Where is his concern for me when he's demanding I do something I don't want to do? If I can live through life's disappointments so can he. It takes time because we're both breaking years long patterns but things are improving.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

Criticism is a pointless endeavor, humans simply don't respond to it, no matter if they sit there with a smile on their face and nod, inside they're seething, they're mad about having their faults on display. Logic would dictate if someone is doing something incorrect informing them of their error would make sense. But humans are not logical beings, we are nearly completely driven by emotion and criticism immediately makes people defensive and not open to what you're trying to convey.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain but it takes character and self control to be understanding and forgiving." -Dale Carnegie

"Criticism of others is futile and if you indulge in it often you should be warned that it can be fatal to your career." -Dale Carnegie

When I first started managing people i had no idea what I was doing, I tried to be an authoritarian and while I got work done, morale was terrible and productivity of my group suffered. I completely switched up my mode of managing people and removed criticism from my repertoire and the response was overwhelmingly for the positive. I could correct behavior or actions without actual criticism or calling out employees on their deficiencies.

Not that marriages are the same, but you still need to learn how to get along with people in a marriage, and if you find yourself routinely being critical it will breed PA behavior and overall resentment.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

knobcreek said:


> Criticism is a pointless endeavor, humans simply don't respond to it, no matter if they sit there with a smile on their face and nod, inside they're seething, they're mad about having their faults on display. Logic would dictate if someone is doing something incorrect informing them of their error would make sense. But humans are not logical beings, we are nearly completely driven by emotion and criticism immediately makes people defensive and not open to what you're trying to convey.
> 
> "Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain but it takes character and self control to be understanding and forgiving." -Dale Carnegie
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you said, but I think you're using the word "criticism" differently that I and some others are. I would never actually "criticize" my husband in a negative or disrespectful way. For example, I would not say something like "You are lazy and worthless, you always do ___ and you never do _____." 

But I will tell him now when I am unhappy about something he is or is not doing. If I don't tell him, how will he know?

Like: 
It really upsets me when you belittle me.
or
I know you don't feel good but it's not fair to me that you did not deal with the IRS issue again today but you were able to go to a meeting, watch a ball game, and talk with several people on the phone.

Likewise, my H tells me when I do things that upset him. Like leave stuff lying around. He doesn't say "God you're such a slob, I married a PIG." Instead he says "I feel so much better when this house is clean will you please help me keep it this way?"

But if someone is doing something PA like giving you the silent treatment when all you did was say something like "I don't like this carpeting" then how do you let them know you're about to leave their a$$ is they don't knock it off without telling them what they're doing that you will no longer tolerate? Is that criticism?

As a manager I'm sure you still have to communicate what people are doing wrong to them if you want them to do something differently. That doesn't have to be rude, obnoxious, and belittling, but you need to get that information to them.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

My husbands upbringing made him PA. I get that no one likes to be criticized, however I disagree that it's a pointless endeavor. What one thinks of as criticism another could think of as logic. I feel like I speak logic to my husband, and he acts like I'm attacking him. There is a problem with not taking responsibility for your actions, and acknowledging that your words and actions have consequences. 
Words, actions, and inactions can hurt. They can destroy you and completely change who you are. There is nothing wrong with bringing up something to someone's attention like your spouse that hurt you or bothers you when you x,y,z. I am not allowed to say these things to my PA husband Bc he feels attacked and says he is not a bad person, I work so hard blah blah blah. Yet it was his original behavior that hurt me, he can somehow turn it around to me being the bad one and he is the victim, allowing him to never have to take responsibility for his actions... Which never change. And he wonders why we always "fight" (aka discuss) the same things over and over and he doesn't understand that they never get addressed and resolved in the first place, or ever. 
I try to set boundaries but it doesn't work with a PA spouse.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> My husbands upbringing made him PA. I get that no one likes to be criticized, however I disagree that it's a pointless endeavor. What one thinks of as criticism another could think of as logic. I feel like I speak logic to my husband, and he acts like I'm attacking him. There is a problem with not taking responsibility for your actions, and acknowledging that your words and actions have consequences.
> Words, actions, and inactions can hurt. They can destroy you and completely change who you are. There is nothing wrong with bringing up something to someone's attention like your spouse that hurt you or bothers you when you x,y,z. I am not allowed to say these things to my PA husband Bc he feels attacked and says he is not a bad person, I work so hard blah blah blah. Yet it was his original behavior that hurt me, *he can somehow turn it around to me being the bad one and he is the victim*, allowing him to never have to take responsibility for his actions... Which never change. And he wonders why we always "fight" (aka discuss) the same things over and over and he doesn't understand that they never get addressed and resolved in the first place, or ever.
> I try to set boundaries but it doesn't work with a PA spouse.


I think he sees you as The Boss. He gives you his power and expects you to take care of him.

You are probably a mother figure to him. He certainly acts like a child with you.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

My husband wants to do what he wants to do, and he will. Once he "has" to do what he doesn't want to do then trouble starts. Like a previous poster said, when things go his way he is so happy and we're all good. Once things don't go his way... He becomes a upset kid who doesn't say anything, does everything to get out of the conversation, then when it's over he continues to do what he wants to do. That's what he did as a kid to his parents and that's what he still does to his parents and what he does to me.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

To give an example:

Old Me:

"Your team deployed this upgrade to 50 people and we didn't deliver advanced communication to them, we can't have this keep happening, this makes our entire department look inept, get your group in order and start managing them please"

New Me:

"Your team is getting a ton of work done on this migration, because we have so much going on in our group we should concentrate on doing it by office and have staff on-hand for the inevitable errors that come up and we have to scramble to fix them quickly. I can also get a project manager appointed because you're just being pulled in too many directions to realistically be able to handhold this"

He knows he screwed up the migration, he knows he's having this conversation because he screwed up the migration, but I never actually directly criticized his performance. After this conversation the remainder of the migration went error free, he met every morning with his staff to validate who gets the push and who doesn't and managed it to a tee. Because he didn't want to disappoint, not because I put the fear of God into him, or made him feel small by calling out his deficiencies. It's not a perfect science but you can reach a better result and basically eradicate criticism of any kind. I never criticize people, because they hate it, even if it's right on point.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> My husband wants to do what he wants to do, and he will. Once he "has" to do what he doesn't want to do then trouble starts. Like a previous poster said, when things go his way he is so happy and we're all good. Once things don't go his way... He becomes a upset kid who doesn't say anything, does everything to get out of the conversation, then when it's over he continues to do what he wants to do. That's what he did as a kid to his parents and that's what he still does to his parents and what he does to me.


Why don't you refuse the parent role? Just stop playing it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

knobcreek said:


> To give an example:
> 
> Old Me:
> 
> ...


But you did not just change your communication style. You also provided actual help in terms of the project manager.

And not everyone would understand what you were doing without being told directly.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

jld said:


> But you did not just change your communication style. You also provided actual help in terms of the project manager.
> 
> And not everyone would understand what you were doing without being told directly.


PM was never assigned, just me bringing it up in a positive way was enough to get action, it was his project and the last thing he wants is a PM from another group coming in to manage it. People typically do get it, I'm also an engineer and work with smart people so not too much has to be spelled out.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

knobcreek said:


> PM was never assigned, just me bringing it up in a positive way was enough to get action, it was his project and the last thing he wants is a PM from another group coming in to manage it. People typically do get it, I'm also an engineer and work with smart people so not too much has to be spelled out.


The new you seems more about problem solving. The old you did not really do that. You would have left that to him to figure out, perhaps.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

People are pa when they feel powerless and/or fearful about being direct about their needs, Katie. If you want your husband to be direct and take responsibility, you cannot continue to be his boss. You have to step back and let him sink or swim. 

But you have to be able to live with that, too. He may sink.


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## Síocháin (Mar 11, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> My husbands upbringing made him PA. I get that no one likes to be criticized, however I disagree that it's a pointless endeavor. What one thinks of as criticism another could think of as logic. I feel like I speak logic to my husband, and he acts like I'm attacking him. There is a problem with not taking responsibility for your actions, and acknowledging that your words and actions have consequences.
> Words, actions, and inactions can hurt. They can destroy you and completely change who you are. There is nothing wrong with bringing up something to someone's attention like your spouse that hurt you or bothers you when you x,y,z. I am not allowed to say these things to my PA husband Bc he feels attacked and says he is not a bad person, I work so hard blah blah blah. Yet it was his original behavior that hurt me, he can somehow turn it around to me being the bad one and he is the victim, allowing him to never have to take responsibility for his actions... Which never change. And he wonders why we always "fight" (aka discuss) the same things over and over and he doesn't understand that they never get addressed and resolved in the first place, or ever.
> I try to set boundaries but it doesn't work with a PA spouse.


 @katiecrna, you just described my entire marriage. I'm just so exhausted & according to him it's all my fault. I so know how you feel.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

katiecrna said:


> My husbands upbringing made him PA. I get that no one likes to be criticized, however I disagree that it's a pointless endeavor. What one thinks of as criticism another could think of as logic. I feel like I speak logic to my husband, and he acts like I'm attacking him.


Humans aren't logical they're driven by emotion, it's why someone can have an affair and perform mental gymnastics as to why it's their spouses fault, it's why so many people sabotage their lives with ridiculous decisions, logic simply isn't what drives the human experience, emotion is.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

knobcreek said:


> Humans aren't logical they're driven by emotion,* it's why someone can have an affair and perform mental gymnastics as to why it's their spouses fault, *it's why so many people sabotage their lives with ridiculous decisions, logic simply isn't what drives the human experience, emotion is.


It is also why a BS will tell themselves over and over they had no influence on a spouse's decision to cheat. The ego is always protecting itself.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

That is very interesting. So are you saying he was raised to be PA because his parents rewarded that type of behavior by giving in all the time, as opposed to her was raised to be PA because that's how his parents acted?

BTW, have you ever tried just indifferently agreeing with him when he tried to turn things on you, then going back to your original point?

You: I'd like to hire a plumber to fix that toilet that hasn't worked for six months.

Your H: I told you I'd fix it! It really hurts that you have so little faith in me, you're always putting me down.

You: I know! Right? I'm a hard, cold woman. So anyhow, if you want to fix it yourself, that's fine, but I plan to call someone Wednesday if it's not fixed yet.

That may not be the most mature way but if he learned to be PA because it worked for him, maybe he'll give up the tactic when he realized it no longer works.

Also, if he's dropping into a funk at home can you just leave? Say "I don't feel welcome here right now, I'm going out for a bit." Then leave. Go to the movies or to see a friend. Think of something you enjoy in advance that you can do away from home. If his PA behavior really is ingrained, he may start to catch it better if you remove yourself from his presence when he does that. 

For little reflexive digs that don't warrant you actually leaving the house, have a simple phrase ready - something like "I don't like it when you talk to me that way." Just something to help him identify his behavior. Then when he responds with "Yeah, well you do ______ all the time, how do you think that makes me feel?" Just calmly and nicely say: "I'm just letting you know." but don't engage in an argument. 




katiecrna said:


> My husband wants to do what he wants to do, and he will. Once he "has" to do what he doesn't want to do then trouble starts. Like a previous poster said, when things go his way he is so happy and we're all good. Once things don't go his way... He becomes a upset kid who doesn't say anything, does everything to get out of the conversation, then when it's over he continues to do what he wants to do. That's what he did as a kid to his parents and that's what he still does to his parents and what he does to me.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jld said:


> People are pa when they feel powerless and/or fearful about being direct about their needs, Katie. If you want your husband to be direct and take responsibility, you cannot continue to be his boss. You have to step back and let him sink or swim.
> 
> 
> 
> But you have to be able to live with that, too. He may sink.




I don't think I boss him. His actions affect me. Someone has to be responsible. I don't stand up and tell him for what to do, I don't control him at all. That doesn't mean his actions don't have consequences Bc of course they do, and those consequences are usually an upset wife. I don't understand what being his boss means. He is a free man and does what he wants to do. I am also a person in this marriage and I need to respect myself and establish boundaries.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> I don't think I boss him. His actions affect me. Someone has to be responsible. I don't stand up and tell him for what to do, I don't control him at all. That doesn't mean his actions don't have consequences Bc of course they do, and those consequences are usually an upset wife. I don't understand what being his boss means. He is a free man and does what he wants to do. I am also a person in this marriage and I need to respect myself and establish boundaries.


He may see it that way, though.

Did you give him a list of jobs to do around the house a few months ago, with deadlines? That may feel bossy to him.

Do you take responsibility for his mood? You try to cheer him up, put boundaries between him and his parents, etc.? That may feel like you are in an authority or caretaker position to him. If he likes it, he will likely try to earn your approval, and be upset when he does not get it.

Yes, people need to be responsible. But who decides the standards of responsibility in the marriage? Does not only the setting but the fulfillment of the standards fall to you? 

Katie, I do not mean to accuse you in any way. It is more like helping you get out of your own way. You seem to take on a lot of responsibility. I think you would be happier if you could limit your responsibility-taking to what is truly yours, and let him handle some of it, too.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jld said:


> He may see it that way, though.
> 
> Did you give him a list of jobs to do around the house a few months ago, with deadlines? That may feel bossy to him.
> 
> ...




No I never gave him a list of chores with deadlines. I threaten to stop doing his laundry every once in a while but that doesn't last a day. I still do all the cleaning and laundry and the majority of the cooking. This doesn't bother me and it's not the issue, I know that he is really busy. 

The issue is and always was about respect. And the thing with his parents was that we both agreed that we don't talk about our financial situations with our parents, which he agrees to then literally told them everything in front of me and didn't understand how this was a problem. Also he acts completely different when he's with his parents than he does when he's with me and it's super awkward for me. 

I guess I don't understand what you mean about setting responsibility and who it falls on. I legit do almost everything in the house, he isn't responsible for that much. My husband could live in a dirty house, and sleep without bedsheets and pillow cases. When you talk about letting him handle responsibility I guess I don't understand. I don't care about housework at all. My issue with him is the fact that we can't have a normal conversation and there is a complete lack of respect from him to me.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

My husband was raised in a VERY strict controlling way. A way that made him develop PA personality. My husband was supose to be a certain way all the time and when he wasn't he got screamed at, and lectured. He got screamed at for holding his fork wrong. His parents told him what to wear, when to cut his hair and how, he was told what to think and believe and if he spoke any other way he would be lectured and in trouble. The problem is my husband continued to do what he wanted to do. He continues to hold his fork the wrong way for example. When they lectured him, he shut his mouth and tuned them out. He learned to agree with them. But after he continued to do what he wanted to do, he just became better and lying and manipulating. His dad was the man of the house and no one was allowed to say anything against him or disagreeing with him, even his wife. It was his way or the highway, literally. My husband was so controlled he never developed a sense of self, he still doesn't know what he believes but he knows how he is supose to act when he is around his parents (which is different than he acts toward me). Bc he was so controlled he developed passive aggressive behavior, he got lectured, he shook his head and tuned them out but on the inside he was thinking... That's what you think! Then he went on and acted the same way. His dad also became so mad at him that he would constantly tell him that he doesn't bring any joy to him and to the family. This is when we started to date. I remember him telling me he was working out in the basement and his dad came down SO mad, like he was stewing and he said to my husband... I can't take it anymore!!!! You have to leave this house!!! I have a beautiful wife, and son (his brother) and you do nothing but bring me misery! You bring me no joy!!! Your going to kill me!! Your going to give me a heart attack!!! I will buy you an apartment because you can't stay here anymore! My husband called me that night and told me what happened. My husband was completely un phased though. He did not ever really form an emotional connection with his parents. I will never forget when my husband moved out of state to medical school everything completely changed. His dad was so nice and pleasant to him and acted like nothing ever happened. My husband said to me... Look at that, my dad loves me now Bc I'm going to be a doctor. It was the saddest thing to me. My husband was not phased. To this day my husband acts how he is supose to when he is around his parents. He lies to them to avoid a possible lecture. He lies to me to avoid a lecture. He always plays the role of a kid.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> No I never gave him a list of chores with deadlines. I threaten to stop doing his laundry every once in a while but that doesn't last a day. I still do all the cleaning and laundry and the majority of the cooking. This doesn't bother me and it's not the issue, I know that he is really busy.
> 
> The issue is and always was about respect. And the thing with his parents was that we both agreed that we don't talk about our financial situations with our parents, which he agrees to then literally told them everything in front of me and didn't understand how this was a problem. Also he acts completely different when he's with his parents than he does when he's with me and it's super awkward for me.
> 
> I guess I don't understand what you mean about setting responsibility and who it falls on. I legit do almost everything in the house, he isn't responsible for that much. My husband could live in a dirty house, and sleep without bedsheets and pillow cases. When you talk about letting him handle responsibility I guess I don't understand. I don't care about housework at all. My issue with him is the fact that we can't have a normal conversation and there is a complete lack of respect from him to me.


I thought you wanted him to carry out some garbage a few months ago, but he refused until you cracked down? Am I not remembering that right? You were frustrated with the cleanliness/tidiness of the house?

If he is acting PA, it is likely because he does not feel like an equal in the marriage. His behavior with his parents seems to indicate he gives power to them like he gives it to you. He opens up with them and probably wants their approval and/or to be taken care of. I think he wants the same from you.

If he saw himself as your equal, he would explain his feelings and try to understand yours. He would not feel threatened by disagreement with you, and not behave in a PA fashion over inconsequential things.

You see his behavior as lack of respect. And from an adult perspective, it feels that way.

But I think to your husband, who is acting more like a child, who probably feels like a child with you, it is more fighting to be respected, too. 

Katie, does any of this make sense? Can you see things from what might be his perspective?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> My husband was raised in a VERY strict controlling way. A way that made him develop PA personality. My husband was supose to be a certain way all the time and when he wasn't he got screamed at, and lectured. He got screamed at for holding his fork wrong. His parents told him what to wear, when to cut his hair and how, he was told what to think and believe and if he spoke any other way he would be lectured and in trouble. The problem is my husband continued to do what he wanted to do. He continues to hold his fork the wrong way for example. When they lectured him, he shut his mouth and tuned them out. He learned to agree with them. But after he continued to do what he wanted to do, he just became better and lying and manipulating. His dad was the man of the house and no one was allowed to say anything against him or disagreeing with him, even his wife. It was his way or the highway, literally. My husband was so controlled he never developed a sense of self, he still doesn't know what he believes but he knows how he is supose to act when he is around his parents (which is different than he acts toward me). Bc he was so controlled he developed passive aggressive behavior, he got lectured, he shook his head and tuned them out but on the inside he was thinking... That's what you think! Then he went on and acted the same way. His dad also became so mad at him that he would constantly tell him that he doesn't bring any joy to him and to the family. This is when we started to date. I remember him telling me he was working out in the basement and his dad came down SO mad, like he was stewing and he said to my husband... I can't take it anymore!!!! You have to leave this house!!! I have a beautiful wife, and son (his brother) and you do nothing but bring me misery! You bring me no joy!!! Your going to kill me!! Your going to give me a heart attack!!! I will buy you an apartment because you can't stay here anymore! My husband called me that night and told me what happened. My husband was completely un phased though. He did not ever really form an emotional connection with his parents. I will never forget when my husband moved out of state to medical school everything completely changed. His dad was so nice and pleasant to him and acted like nothing ever happened. My husband said to me... Look at that, my dad loves me now Bc I'm going to be a doctor. It was the saddest thing to me. My husband was not phased. To this day my husband acts how he is supose to when he is around his parents. He lies to them to avoid a possible lecture. He lies to me to avoid a lecture. He always plays the role of a kid.


I think he was very much affected by all that, at a very deep level.

I feel very sorry for him. 

I bet you have tried to make him feel safe, to feel loved and accepted. But it is difficult to overcome one's upbringing.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jld said:


> I thought you wanted him to carry out some garbage a few months ago, but he refused until you cracked down? Am I not remembering that right? You were frustrated with the cleanliness/tidiness of the house?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes I posted about how I was mad that he couldn't take the trash out. Literally nothing has changed. Sometimes he does sometimes he doesn't. Sometimes I take it out, sometimes I'll let it pile up and wait for him. 

I can't stand this blame the other person for someone else's bad behavior. At the end of the day we all choose what we do, it is our choice. He chooses to lie, he chooses to avoid conflict, he chooses not to get help on this marriage, he chooses when he takes the garbage out and when he decides not to, he chooses how much effort he wants to put in this marriage. I do respect him. My behavior does not cause his actions and I honestly hate that mentality. Yea all our actions have consequences but at the end of the day we decide what we are going to do. Lying and cheating is no ones fault but the person who chose to do it. Period. It's like when people blame the girl who got raped and said well why would you wear that short skirt??? It's absolutely crazy to me. Nobody is responsible for anyone actions except our own. And our actions are 100% our choice. I learned that as a Christian, others peoples behaviors should never dictate our actions. I can't stand this blame game. 

I'm sorry but I'm not buying it. He is a grown man, who is very smart. He knows what he is doing and he knows when he is being a ****. If you want to be treated like an adult, then act like one. My husband is very good at manipulating the situation. He wants all the good things about the marriage and none of the bad things, and he manipulates everything so that he gets the good without the bad.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

katiecrna said:


> Yes I posted about how I was mad that he couldn't take the trash out. Literally nothing has changed. Sometimes he does sometimes he doesn't. Sometimes I take it out, sometimes I'll let it pile up and wait for him.
> 
> I can't stand this blame the other person for someone else's bad behavior. At the end of the day we all choose what we do, it is our choice. He chooses to lie, he chooses to avoid conflict, he chooses not to get help on this marriage, he chooses when he takes the garbage out and when he decides not to, he chooses how much effort he wants to put in this marriage. I do respect him. My behavior does not cause his actions and I honestly hate that mentality. Yea all our actions have consequences but at the end of the day we decide what we are going to do. Lying and cheating is no ones fault but the person who chose to do it. Period. It's like when people blame the girl who got raped and said well why would you wear that short skirt??? It's absolutely crazy to me. Nobody is responsible for anyone actions except our own. And our actions are 100% our choice. I learned that as a Christian, others peoples behaviors should never dictate our actions. I can't stand this blame game.
> 
> *I'm sorry but I'm not buying it. He is a grown man, who is very smart. He knows what he is doing and he knows when he is being a ****.* If you want to be treated like an adult, then act like one. My husband is very good at manipulating the situation. He wants all the good things about the marriage and none of the bad things, and he manipulates everything so that he gets the good without the bad.


Yes, all of this! WHY a PA behaves the way they do really doesnt matter, what matters is that they hurt you on purpose, and will not change unless they make the conscious choice to do so. My second husband got dealt a really sh!tty hand earlier in his life, but that does not mean that I was required to just put up with being treated like dirt because of it. 

Oh, and Katie, I hope you are making an exit plan.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> Yes I posted about how I was mad that he couldn't take the trash out. Literally nothing has changed. Sometimes he does sometimes he doesn't. Sometimes I take it out, sometimes I'll let it pile up and wait for him.
> 
> I can't stand this blame the other person for someone else's bad behavior. At the end of the day we all choose what we do, it is our choice. He chooses to lie, he chooses to avoid conflict, he chooses not to get help on this marriage, he chooses when he takes the garbage out and when he decides not to, he chooses how much effort he wants to put in this marriage. I do respect him. My behavior does not cause his actions and I honestly hate that mentality. Yea all our actions have consequences but at the end of the day we decide what we are going to do. Lying and cheating is no ones fault but the person who chose to do it. Period. It's like when people blame the girl who got raped and said well why would you wear that short skirt??? It's absolutely crazy to me. Nobody is responsible for anyone actions except our own. And our actions are 100% our choice. I learned that as a Christian, others peoples behaviors should never dictate our actions. I can't stand this blame game.
> 
> I'm sorry but I'm not buying it. He is a grown man, who is very smart. He knows what he is doing and he knows when he is being a ****. If you want to be treated like an adult, then act like one. My husband is very good at manipulating the situation. He wants all the good things about the marriage and none of the bad things, and he manipulates everything so that he gets the good without the bad.


This is definitely how all of it feels to you. I am just trying to say that he has his own perspective on things. If you want to resolve conflict with him, looking through what might be his perspective could help you understand him better.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

jld said:


> katiecrna said:
> 
> 
> > Yes I posted about how I was mad that he couldn't take the trash out. Literally nothing has changed. Sometimes he does sometimes he doesn't. Sometimes I take it out, sometimes I'll let it pile up and wait for him.
> ...


Wouldn't that be codependent enabling and accepting of bad/unhealthy behavior from him?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Livvie said:


> Wouldn't that be codependent enabling and accepting of bad/unhealthy behavior from him?


How so?


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

@jld just because I understand why someone does something doesn't make the Behavior ok. I 100% understand why he does things. He doesn't like conflict so he lies and does anything to change the subject. Just Bc he doesn't like conflict doesn't mean he shouldn't ever be faced with conflict, that's ignoring the problem and doesn't help him. He has an underlying anger toward me that he uses to punish me when he is faced with things he doesn't like. Trust me, I did my due diligence and learned as much as I could about him and this PA personality, I understand way more than he does. He doesn't want to admit anything and refuses to see anything he does wrong.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

He has made it really clear from his actions that this is the way he is, and he doesn't care if I'm unhappy Bc he can't change and there is nothing wrong with him. He had made no attempts to help our marriage. While his actions show this, his words tell me how much he loves me and how much he wants to make the marriage work and how he is trying so hard. This is bullsh*t.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

No offense but people who have never lived with a PA person have no idea how twisted and calculative they really are and how much you drive yourself crazy trying to fix things and how they can twist things to make it seem like you are the crazy one. It is an exhausting selfish relationship.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

JLD, I meant what Katie just said. I think she understands his perspective perfectly.... Where his behavior comes from. An understanding of his "perspective" doesn't translate into it it being okay or healthy behavior to accept from a partner. Don't you usually advocate a man being a strong relationship leader with him taking responsibility for his emotions and actions?


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

katiecrna said:


> It drives me nuts Bc I don't understand WHY he takes things so personal. But Its exhausting. I feel like we can't have a normal intelligent conversation on the day to day basis.
> 
> My windshield has a crack in it. I told him on text I guess I'll take it tomorrow to get it fixed. He said to me... That's really hurtful. I was like why?? And he said Bc I always take care of the car things and now it's like your saying that I don't do it so now you have to. !!!!what!!!!! My response... I don't have time for this ****. It is so exhausting having to spend 10 mins explaining to him that I didn't say that, and I don't think that and that he needs to read my texts more literal, Bc I am very direct and there is never any underlying alternative message or meaning.
> And btw this conversation took place when I got work and I was busy and it's so annoying having to deal with this behavior all the time.


Katie, it is extremely exhausting to deal with a PA and I feel my PA husband takes great pleasure in my frustrations with him. I think it indicates to him that I am the difficult one. Here is an example much like yours and typical of dealings with my husband:

Daughter wanted to buy her first car and for many years I have been putting bits of $ into a certain acct for this, husband knew about this. We could have easily enough paid for the car but I felt she could not appreciate the car if she did not pay for at least part of it. This acct I had been putting money into was our daughter's acct, in her name. My husband's response, "Her account is making more interest than ours." So I ask husband what does it matter about interest, we weren't going to pay for her car out of our money anyway. No response. I ask him to explain his thinking, was there a reason he did not want her to use her money. No response. So I tell husband that maybe we should leave this up to daughter...she can choose whether she wants to use the cash she has or the money from her acct to pay for her car. She chose the money of the acct. husband was silent. I never understood why he thought we should use our money because she was earning more interest when she was the one paying for her own car, the logic is completely illogical. The thing I have to remember to to remain calm. I used to get upset and expect him to explain himself and I would try to get him to see logic but he just gave him the glory of me getting upset.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Livvie said:


> JLD, I meant what Katie just said. I think she understands his perspective perfectly.... Where his behavior comes from. An understanding of his "perspective" doesn't translate into it it being okay or healthy behavior to accept from a partner. Don't you usually advocate a man being a strong relationship leader with him taking responsibility for his emotions and actions?


Yes. But not all men can do it. I don't think Katie's man can.

To me, she has three choices:

1) Continue to expect more than he can probably provide, at least right now, and feel resentful;

2) Give up and leave the marriage;

3) Accept him as he is, and take responsibility for the relationship. Nurture and guide him as needed. Hope that someday he matures and takes responsibility, too.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> @jld just because I understand why someone does something doesn't make the Behavior ok. I 100% understand why he does things. He doesn't like conflict so he lies and does anything to change the subject. Just Bc he doesn't like conflict doesn't mean he shouldn't ever be faced with conflict, that's ignoring the problem and doesn't help him. He has an underlying anger toward me that he uses to punish me when he is faced with things he doesn't like. Trust me, I did my due diligence and learned as much as I could about him and this PA personality, I understand way more than he does. He doesn't want to admit anything and refuses to see anything he does wrong.


He definitely seems like a child. Why do you keep expecting adult behavior from him when it sounds like he cannot provide it? Aren't you just frustrating yourself?

Or do you think that you will eventually get through to him? Is that why you keep trying?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

jld said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > JLD, I meant what Katie just said. I think she understands his perspective perfectly.... Where his behavior comes from. An understanding of his "perspective" doesn't translate into it it being okay or healthy behavior to accept from a partner. Don't you usually advocate a man being a strong relationship leader with him taking responsibility for his emotions and actions?
> ...


Isn't number three unhealthy codependent behavior? It means accepting his unhealthy behavior as a way to keep the relationship.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

katiecrna said:


> My husband was raised in a VERY strict controlling way. A way that made him develop PA personality. My husband was supose to be a certain way all the time and when he wasn't he got screamed at, and lectured. He got screamed at for holding his fork wrong. His parents told him what to wear, when to cut his hair and how, he was told what to think and believe and if he spoke any other way he would be lectured and in trouble. The problem is my husband continued to do what he wanted to do. He continues to hold his fork the wrong way for example. When they lectured him, he shut his mouth and tuned them out. He learned to agree with them. But after he continued to do what he wanted to do, he just became better and lying and manipulating. His dad was the man of the house and no one was allowed to say anything against him or disagreeing with him, even his wife. It was his way or the highway, literally. My husband was so controlled he never developed a sense of self, he still doesn't know what he believes but he knows how he is supose to act when he is around his parents (which is different than he acts toward me). Bc he was so controlled he developed passive aggressive behavior, he got lectured, he shook his head and tuned them out but on the inside he was thinking... That's what you think! Then he went on and acted the same way. His dad also became so mad at him that he would constantly tell him that he doesn't bring any joy to him and to the family. This is when we started to date. I remember him telling me he was working out in the basement and his dad came down SO mad, like he was stewing and he said to my husband... I can't take it anymore!!!! You have to leave this house!!! I have a beautiful wife, and son (his brother) and you do nothing but bring me misery! You bring me no joy!!! Your going to kill me!! Your going to give me a heart attack!!! I will buy you an apartment because you can't stay here anymore! My husband called me that night and told me what happened. My husband was completely un phased though. He did not ever really form an emotional connection with his parents. I will never forget when my husband moved out of state to medical school everything completely changed. His dad was so nice and pleasant to him and acted like nothing ever happened. My husband said to me... Look at that, my dad loves me now Bc I'm going to be a doctor. It was the saddest thing to me. My husband was not phased. To this day my husband acts how he is supose to when he is around his parents. He lies to them to avoid a possible lecture. He lies to me to avoid a lecture. He always plays the role of a kid.


Katie, our PA husbands came from somewhat similar situations growing up. Husband's dad had two sides to his personality....one which everyone feared, his anger, and the other side who was the joking leader that the family admired. Husband's mom was a very organized/regimented woman. I never saw any sort of affection between them. I saw my mother-in-law as very whiny towards her husband which I figure was due to his lack of emotional availability. She could be talking to him and he would ignore her. This man was rude and thought it was okay to hike his leg up while sitting on the couch and rip out a fart in front of a whole room of company. He told jokes about being too "big" for his wife on their wedding night to whoever would listen and I think he prided himself in his humor. 

When husband was small his mom made him sit under the kitchen table to want for 3 hours til his dad got him to punish him for something. He learned he had no voice and like your husband he was going to do whatever he wanted anyway no matter what he was told to do or not do but he was going to smile, agree and then sneak to do what he wanted. This all formed in his childhood.

Husband's next older sister was little brother's protector, something he knew. He could do whatever and big sister was there to protect him regardless.

He was the only boy and his dad, I felt, tried to raise him as his "buddy." he created like this "man's world" between them...listen to your mom but there was this underlying "we are men" attitude.

Husband did get out of the family circle in some sense by joining the military instead of staying and following his dad's career as the family expected him to do. Once he stepped away he lived the life doing the things he wanted to do regardless of anyone else and he was not honest with his family or others. It was like he had this secret world he would delve in.....lust, porn, flirting, emotional affairs....but he knew he had to keep that from his first wife and from me, his second wife. When confronted he could not be honest, he had to place blame rather than own his actions.

With my husband there is alot of anger that he takes underground and it can be for the simplest of slights. Oh, I didn't laugh at his joke, that hurt his feelings and now I will have to pay. No doubt this also formed in his childhood. This is probably the toughest to deal with as he will not tell you what is bothering him. If you ask, he will act like I am the crazy one for noticing anything, nothing is wrong but yet his body language and he silence speak for itself. And then comes the vindictive act to justify me hurting him. Even if I figure out what it is that is bugging him he will not talk about it even when asked. I feel he is not in touch with his own emotions. He never learned to tell his family or anyone else, this is what I am going to do, he avoids yes and no and will ask you a question in response to your question. It has been like living without answers, living without emotional connection, living with dozens of question marks over your head...a world of bewilderment.

Here is an example of how sever the situation has been with husband. We are a step family, his sons lived with us full time and i raised them since they were 5 & 7. Younger boy's wife was pg, I was corresponding with her about when the baby was due. I had a month but no date. I had not met her at this point, all communication was thru emails. The month came and I realized I had heard nothing so I asked husband if he had heard if the baby had been born yet. He said he would fwd me the email he got from his son, the baby had been born 10 days prior. He had not said one word to me about this. I was flabbergasted. How could he not say anything? Most stunning of all is that he did not even attempt to go visit, they lived about an hour away. How could he have not wanted to see his grand daughter or tried to have been there? I asked those questions and he had no response. I then contacted her and congratulated her, let her know I had just found out. She called me a liar. Wow! She said there was no way husband would not have shared the news with me. Did husband take any responsibility and contact his son and let him know that I had not been told? NO! Just incredible!!!

In my husband's silence he uses things to avoid what he does not want to deal with. Alcohol to numb himself and not have to deal with reality, remember he can't speak. Things that will give him pleasure and keep him from dealing with real life so he plays computer games, watches endless hours of the varies series on TV he follows, it keeps his focus so he doesn't have to feel reality. The busty lady pics and the online strip shows give him pleasure yet again so he does not have to deal with his own real emotions. He lives in a constant void of his own reality, very disconnected from life. It is sad, I am not even sure he gets it all but I can see it and there is no way to reach him, I have tried. If i say anything I am the one that has wronged him, I am just supposed to accept. he becomes the victim and I have to pay for hurting him. With time I had to detach and save myself.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Livvie said:


> Isn't number three unhealthy codependent behavior? It means accepting his unhealthy behavior as a way to keep the relationship.


Guiding him does not mean accepting it. He needs her honesty regarding his behavior. 

But I do not think her efforts will bear fruit if he does not feel understood and at a basic level, accepted. Iow, she cannot threaten to leave him and expect that will bring out the best in him.

She can set a good example herself, though. That is powerful.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Livvie said:


> Isn't number three unhealthy codependent behavior? It means accepting his unhealthy behavior as a way to keep the relationship.


It's really only co-dependent if there are no boundaries. There's plenty of room in nurturing for said boundaries. 

But not everybody wants to take that step with their partner either.

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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Livvie said:


> Isn't number three unhealthy codependent behavior? It means accepting his unhealthy behavior as a way to keep the relationship.


For thos who do not understand the dynamic between the PA person and his/her spouse, the spouse generally is a "caregiver" or codependent, something we learned growing up in our family of origin. Most people who marry a PA person had a parent who was also PA and this parent was the one they tried to please. We assume the PA's responsibility early on in the relationship, we are the do-all creator and the person who is going to lend our compassion and help this person climb out of their hurt. With time we realize that we have beat our head against a wall trying, that change was not possible, her was not received or even wanted and we begin to step back, hurt ourselves from the constant frustration and lies. You either learn to deal with the PA in a different way than you had before or you disconnect. Either way, we have to learn our par to of it, we have to learn why we did what we did, what was the attraction and learn from the actions that did not serve us.

In my situation once I made the connection between my PA mother and my PA husband and how I had tried to please them both, I initially wanted to save the marriage with me using a different approach. I told my husband I was not responsible for his emotions and I would not longer cater to his silence. I told him that if there was something on his mind he would need to bring that to my attention rather than me trying to drag it out of him. I stuck to it too but husband remained stuck and unable to voice himself and try to connect emotionally. I think it was too frightening to him. I knew I could not help and that nothing I did was going to change the dynamic between us and that the only thing I could do was save myself.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Isn't it part of the codependent dance that when the enabler finally sets healthy boundaries, the relationship oftern goes to crap? Because the person with unhealthy maybe (emotionally) abusive behavior wants a partner who DOESN'T set boundaries and who expects a healthy relationship dynamic? That once they do, it isn't a codependent relationship anymore, and this doesn't work for the abuser... They need someone who will put up with their behavior?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

... nurturing to them is putting up with what they dish out.... They feel entitled to act out unhealthily towardsa partner because they have childhood wounds....."if you love me you will understand why I act this way and just take it."


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

For anyone following this thread that feels they might be with a PA partner and wants to find a way to freedom I have a couple book suggestions, "Living with the Passive-Aggressive Man" by Scott Wetzler and "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist" by Margalis Fjelstad. Both books are excellent! I have found by replacing PA with NA in the second book it walks hand in hand.The second book describes how we become involved with these types. In both books have have dog eared and highlighted page after page.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

jld said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't number three unhealthy codependent behavior? It means accepting his unhealthy behavior as a way to keep the relationship.
> ...


JLD, it's hard to "accept" someone who treats you terribly, knows it hurts you and is unfair, and keeps doing it. How do you accept that?? Why shouldn't leaving someone if they don't change abusive behavior be on the table ?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Livvie said:


> JLD, it's hard to "accept" someone who treats you terribly, knows it hurts you and is unfair, and keeps doing it. How do you accept that?? Why shouldn't leaving someone if they don't change abusive behavior be on the table ?


Leaving was #2 on the list of choices, Livvie.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Livvie said:


> ... nurturing to them is putting up with what they dish out.... They feel entitled to act out unhealthily towardsa partner because they have childhood wounds....."if you love me you will understand why I act this way and just take it."


You can be nurturing without enabling. Trying to understand where he is coming from is nurturing. Being brutally honest with him is helpful, too.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Livvie said:


> Isn't it part of the codependent dance that when the enabler finally sets healthy boundaries, the relationship oftern goes to crap? Because the person with unhealthy maybe (emotionally) abusive behavior wants a partner who DOESN'T set boundaries and who expects a healthy relationship dynamic? That once they do, it isn't a codependent relationship anymore, and this doesn't work for the abuser... They need someone who will put up with their behavior?


That very well may happen. At that point he has a choice to grow, or remain miserable because his pettiness is being called out.

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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Livvie said:


> ... nurturing to them is putting up with what they dish out.... They feel entitled to act out unhealthily towardsa partner because they have childhood wounds....."if you love me you will understand why I act this way and just take it."


That's great. The only problem? He doesn't get to define what nurturing means. At least, not for her.

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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

@jld has this nailed. 

For the posters who are finding reasons why this can't work, I notice a consistent theme. You feel powerless to do anything. 

That could quite possibly be an even larger problem than the passive aggressive husband.

I think you should honestly ask yourself why you feel this way.

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## Ms. GP (Jul 8, 2013)

I used to be a pretty PA person especially in my marriage. It was hardwired behavior based in fear of rejection, people pleasing, low self esteem, and a LOT of resentment and unexpressed anger. It took a lot of MC and IC to unlearn those hard wired behaviors. It was like the MC had to teach us how to fight from scratch. Not in the sense that there is a clear winner and loser but to understand where the other is coming from, so we could begin to resolve the conflicts on our own. He had to lower his levels of anger and aggression before I could muster the courage to express myself. I then had to learn to speak up for myself without shutting down. He then had to repeat what I said without reacting to it, and I had to do the same. It was very difficult for both of us. I think this is the "nuturing" @jld is referring too. We had to have a professional show us how to do it. Is he open to any kind of counseling?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

So was I.

It is a life of being a victim. No matter what happens, a PA person sees them self as the victim. 

And why?

As @Mrs. Gp said, low self esteem.

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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

One really helpful thing the non-passive aggressive partner can do is make it safe for the PA to be honest and direct. For example, listen and try to understand when he is expressing himself. Hear past his emotion to what his heart is feeling.

When you feel he is behaving in a PA way, tell him you want him to feel safe to be honest and direct with you. Ask what you could do to help with that. If he refuses to speak, tell him you are going to do x right now, but you will be ready to hear him when he is ready to talk with you.

Patience and maturity, Katie. You have to model it for him. He does not have it on his own yet.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> @jld has this nailed.
> 
> For the posters who are finding reasons why this can't work, I notice a consistent theme. You feel powerless to do anything.
> 
> ...


I don't think I have anything nailed, far, but thanks. We are all just sharing our thoughts here.

The gals may feel it is not fair that they have to be the leaders with these PA guys. But sometimes we just have to do the best we can with the circumstances we find ourselves in. Sometimes we have to go first and set the example.


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## Síocháin (Mar 11, 2016)

@jld, your idea makes sense. But, how do you get a PA person who thinks everyone else is the problem do that? I have offered that with our MC present. He said sure, I can do that. What happened, nothing. Because they don't mean what they say or say what they mean. They tell you what you want to hear & do what they please regardless of the impact on you. They just want the conflict to go away so they lie/procrastinate/blameshift/make intentional mistakes/change subjects or say they forgot. I have told him that I had rather know what he is really thinking/feeling instead of the lies. Just verbalize it. According to my H, he doesn't have a problem, I do. Until he takes responsibility for his choices & actions no change can happen. 

Example: My H has a bad habit of going into a bowl of leftovers with his hands. We have dogs & cats and I don't know if he always remembers to wash his hands before he does that. I asked him one day to please use a fork. I did not yell, accuse or act ugly in any way. He looks right at me and says sure, I can do that. I turn my back for a second & turn back around. He has his hand in the bowl pulling out food. I asked him nicely, he agreed & did what he wanted anyway. If I had confronted him, he would have said "no I didn't" even though I SAW him. It will blow your mind. 

You can't nurture someone like that. I have tried.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Livvie said:


> Isn't it part of the codependent dance that when the enabler finally sets healthy boundaries, the relationship oftern goes to crap? Because the person with unhealthy maybe (emotionally) abusive behavior wants a partner who DOESN'T set boundaries and who expects a healthy relationship dynamic? That once they do, it isn't a codependent relationship anymore, and this doesn't work for the abuser... They need someone who will put up with their behavior?




Ding ding ding****** this is exactly true. And this is why my husband and I are on he brink of a divorce. It was Bc I decided to respect myself and set boundaries. So right now my focus is trying to get him to understand his unhealthy behavior and how it is affecting our marriage and how it is going to affect his life for the rest of his life. And that there is a way out, but the key is understanding why he acts the way he acts and acknowledging why it's a problem. And he is focusing on trying to prove to me that these problems aren't that big of a deal, and they don't need to be addressed. We literally just had an exhausting conversation about why his constant lying is a big deal and how it's not healthy, and it creates distrust in the marriage. He went on and on trying to prove to me that lying is not a big deal at all, he doesn't do it all the time, everyone does it, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. He can not even acknowledge that lying is wrong. It's crazy. I finally had to say... You can say whatever you want, to me, your wife, it's a problem and I will not put up with it. And if I think it's a problem then you as my husband should respect that and try to fix it!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> So was I.
> 
> It is a life of being a victim. No matter what happens, a PA person sees them self as the victim.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I think the non-PA spouses can get caught up in the victimhood trap, too, far. It is like each side thinks it is right, and does not want to share power with the other.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Síocháin said:


> @jld, your idea makes sense. But, how do you get a PA person who thinks everyone else is the problem do that? I have offered that with our MC present. He said sure, I can do that. What happened, nothing. Because they don't mean what they say or say what they mean. They tell you what you want to hear & do what they please regardless of the impact on you. They just want the conflict to go away so they lie/procrastinate/blameshift/make intentional mistakes/change subjects or say they forgot. I have told him that I had rather know what he is really thinking/feeling instead of the lies. Just verbalize it. According to my H, he doesn't have a problem, I do. Until he takes responsibility for his choices & actions no change can happen.
> 
> Example: My H has a bad habit of going into a bowl of leftovers with his hands. We have dogs & cats and I don't know if he always remembers to wash his hands before he does that. I asked him one day to please use a fork. I did not yell, accuse or act ugly in any way. He looks right at me and says sure, I can do that. I turn my back for a second & turn back around. He has his hand in the bowl pulling out food. I asked him nicely, he agreed & did what he wanted anyway. If I had confronted him, he would have said "no I didn't" even though I SAW him. It will blow your mind.
> 
> You can't nurture someone like that. I have tried.


Wow. Disgusting. Why are you still married to him?

Not everyone is worth being with, S. I will not even be friends with a liar, much less accept to be married to one.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jld said:


> You can be nurturing without enabling. Trying to understand where he is coming from is nurturing. Being brutally honest with him is helpful, too.




I am very blunt and brutally honest. I have printed out articles about PA behavior, highlighted things, and have written down examples of how he fits this. I told him in a loving way, that it's ok, we all have issues, it's not that big of a deal but we need to work to improve ourselves and understand how our actions impact each other. 

He will flat out tell me he doesn't do something right after he did it. It's crazy. When confronted with mounting evidence, he will deny, minimize, change the subject, respond saying "that's hurtful", say a sarcastic comment to try to distract me, change the subject by saying "I'm not that bad of a guy...", turn himself into the victim. The closer I am to him being unable to refute the truth the more he pulls out all stops. And that's what you don't understand, having an open honest conversation is impossible. He never talks about his emotions or his feelings and he doesn't want to. He tells me he doesn't want to deal with deep issues and wants everything to be light and fun and not serious.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> I am very blunt and brutally honest. I have printed out articles about PA behavior, highlighted things, and have written down examples of how he fits this. I told him in a loving way, that it's ok, we all have issues, it's not that big of a deal but we need to work to improve ourselves and understand how our actions impact each other.
> 
> He will flat out tell me he doesn't do something right after he did it. It's crazy. When confronted with mounting evidence, he will deny, minimize, change the subject, respond saying "that's hurtful", say a sarcastic comment to try to distract me, change the subject by saying "I'm not that bad of a guy...", turn himself into the victim. The closer I am to him being unable to refute the truth the more he pulls out all stops. And that's what you don't understand, having an open honest conversation is impossible. He never talks about his emotions or his feelings and he doesn't want to. He tells me he doesn't want to deal with deep issues and wants everything to be light and fun and not serious.


Katie, I told you leaving him is an option. 

I certainly would not accept to be married to someone like that.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Ms. GP said:


> Is he open to any kind of counseling?



Absolutely not.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jld said:


> One really helpful thing the non-passive aggressive partner can do is make it safe for the PA to be honest and direct. For example, listen and try to understand when he is expressing himself. Hear past his emotion to what his heart is feeling.
> 
> Patience and maturity, Katie. You have to model it for him. He does not have it on his own yet.




This is almost a joke. He literally never tries to talk about his feelings. Ever.


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## Ms. GP (Jul 8, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> Absolutely not.


Well, you've got your answer then.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I know that I can leave him. I'm well aware of my situation trust me. I come to this marriage with my own set of issues and that is why I choose a PA spouse and that is why I am struggling to leave him when I know that I deserve to be treated better. 
I too have self esteem issues. And fear of being alone. And fear of not being married and having a family which has always been my goal/dream. I am an emotional, sensitive, romantic, hopeful, Jesus loving, optimistic person and this is what keeps me staying with him. Like him, I too am a little girl who is just asking to be loved and understood. Which is a basic need that I have not experienced in childhood.
Bc I do love him, and we use to have an amazing relationship, and I know he is a good person, and I know he is stuck in kid mode and doesn't have effective tools and coping mechanism to get himself out. And the stupid pathetic hopeful optimistic person in me keeps thinking that I can help him and I can get him to see his destructive ways and we can live happily ever after. I believe knowledge is power and if I can just get him to understand... 

And nothing is changing except I am destroying my self esteem and the hopeful, happy, excited person I use to be.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

What would you say are your issues in the marriage, Katie? What are his complaints about you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > ... nurturing to them is putting up with what they dish out.... They feel entitled to act out unhealthily towardsa partner because they have childhood wounds....."if you love me you will understand why I act this way and just take it."
> ...


I agree. The abuser doesn't get to define what is nurturing behavior to the enabler (as coming from the enabler). However, when the abuser continues to play the victim and accuses the enabler of not being loving and nurturing because they aren't doing it the abuser's way (acceptance of abusive with no complaints or boundary) there is a problem.

FYI I left the 5 year relationship I was in with this dynamic. He didn't want to change. Lashed out horribly and with contempt or punished with withdrawal over nothing... except his hypersensitive triggers from childhood. Thought I should just deal with these behaviors, or I wasn't loving and didn't love him. Love was defined as acceptance of his abuse.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jld said:


> What would you say are your issues in the marriage, Katie? What are his complaints about you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




He doesn't have any complaints about me. All he says is that he just wants everyone to be happy. I asked him what are his needs in this relationship and he told me he doesn't have any. He's like a robot. He hates that I'm not happy. And he hates that I feel disappointed by him. And he says that his biggest fear is that he can't make me happy and we will be miserable our whole life. But this is such bull**** Bc when I explain to him what I need to be happy nothing changes. And I am not asking for much. Basically just general respect, support, thoughtfulness, and trust. I feel like he is so detached from this marriage and in life in general that he lives completely independent and has no needs or cares In the world. He says he wants to make me happy and he says all the right things at times but he never ever puts his words to action. He says he's really working hard on improving this marriage. (Yet refuses counseling and books), when i ask him what he is doing exactly he gets so offended and says he is trying his hardest. (Aka nothing Bc be hasn't admitted the problems). Then he turns It on me and becomes the victim and starts with the... "It's so hurtful that you say these things. I am not a bad guy. I work really hard and I am trying the best I can". But the reality is, he isn't doing anything. A simple question like... What are you doing to help the marriage? Will start a huge thing! And he makes it very clear that I am not allowed to question him. When I tell him it doesn't seem like you have even acknowledged what the problems are, so saying things like I'm trying the best I can doesn't really tell me you are doing anything at all. Then he goes off.... Can't we just be happy? Am I that bad of a guy? I work so hard can't we just relax and have fun!! He is a master at changing subjects and getting off topic so the original question never gets addressed. When I don't drop it and keep re directing him to the original question he try's another tactic. It's exhausting.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Really, no complaints? He has never said you are controlling? Didn't I read that in one of your threads?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Síocháin (Mar 11, 2016)

@jld PAs very seldom verbalize their complaints. They just mostly want you to read their minds & punish you for it if you can't.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Síocháin said:


> @jld PAs very seldom verbalize their complaints. They just mostly want you to read their minds & punish you for it if you can't.


You do not have to accept that, S.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jld said:


> Really, no complaints? He has never said you are controlling? Didn't I read that in one of your threads?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




The only thing that he says is that I have a temper at times and can say some mean things at the heat of one of my blow outs. And I 100% agree with this, sometimes I completely loose it. When we are trying and he doesn't acknowledge somthing and keeps denying or lying or trying to change the subject and the more I try to get him to understand while logic and he still refuses to see what I'm saying I get really annoyed. Sometimes I reach a point where I know I am about to flip out Bc I know that there is nothing I can say to him, that it is him being 100% difficult on purpose. Sometimes I can control myself and say stop! I can't talk about this Bc I am going to flip out, and I walk away. Sometimes I just loose my mind and flip out. I have apologized every time I have done it, and I never make an excuse. And I have worked on this personally. I have identified when I am about to loose it, and I say STOP! And I tell him I can't continue with this convo until I cool down. That is what happened last night. I was about to flip out Bc he was 100% wrong and being a ****, and I stopped myself and walked away. When I cooled off, I told him I was done. And that there is nothing I can say or do that will change anything. He knew I meant business, which is why he woke up today and cleaned (for once), and is acting really nice. That's what he does when he knows he ****s up. He says... See I love you so much, I did all the dishes. Doing dishes doesn't make up for the complete lack or respect he showed me last night, as well as argue with me to the death to defend his behavior Instead of just saying I'm sorry. 

No he does not think I am controlling actually. People on this forum have told me I sound controlling but my husband has told me specifically that he doesn't feel like i am. I posted a thread asking if asking your husband to not to say certain things that offend you is controlling so maybe that's where you got that idea.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jld said:


> You do not have to accept that, S.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




They don't have complaints Bc they really don't have a care in the world. At least my husband doesn't. He just wants everyone to be happy.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

They don't complain Bc they don't want to come off needy and like the bad one. So when you complain, he twists things around and says you are never happy, your always complaining this is your issue not mine. I am happy. And he appears to be the nice guy on the outside and he makes you look bad. And it f*cks with your head and it makes you feel crazy.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Livvie said:


> Isn't it part of the codependent dance that when the enabler finally sets healthy boundaries, the relationship oftern goes to crap? Because the person with unhealthy maybe (emotionally) abusive behavior wants a partner who DOESN'T set boundaries and who expects a healthy relationship dynamic? That once they do, it isn't a codependent relationship anymore, and this doesn't work for the abuser... They need someone who will put up with their behavior?


Yes yes yes, no nailed it!!!!!


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

katiecrna said:


> I know that I can leave him. I'm well aware of my situation trust me. I come to this marriage with my own set of issues and that is why I choose a PA spouse and that is why I am struggling to leave him when I know that I deserve to be treated better.
> I too have self esteem issues. And fear of being alone. And fear of not being married and having a family which has always been my goal/dream. I am an emotional, sensitive, romantic, hopeful, Jesus loving, optimistic person and this is what keeps me staying with him. Like him, I too am a little girl who is just asking to be loved and understood. Which is a basic need that I have not experienced in childhood.
> Bc I do love him, and we use to have an amazing relationship, and I know he is a good person, and I know he is stuck in kid mode and doesn't have effective tools and coping mechanism to get himself out. And the stupid pathetic hopeful optimistic person in me keeps thinking that I can help him and I can get him to see his destructive ways and we can live happily ever after. I believe knowledge is power and if I can just get him to understand...
> 
> And nothing is changing except I am destroying my self esteem and the hopeful, happy, excited person I use to be.


Katie, goodness do I understand those fears and that is what held me where I was for the longest time. I wasn't happy but we were living as friends and as long as I was willing to "float" and not really look at the dysfunction between us I thought I could make the "friendship/roommate " thing work. It was when I had suspected that he was carrying on with yet another lady that I decided I was actually going to take my head out of the sand, stop ignoring and when I did it was like a board hit me smack in the face, a reality check I guess. When I found all my husband's internet searches after years of being dishonest I knew nothing had ever changed despite all of our counseling. I had to face every fear and in order to do that I had to have the biggest desire to live healthy, be healthy and to no longer be hurt by his actions. I felt the marriage had been a lie and wondered if he had ever loved me or even knew how to love. 

Probably my biggest fear was my children's reactions and whether they would reject me. I was literally shocked when my daughters understood. It was a huge relief and I knew I was heading in the right direction not just for me but for their future too. They can have a relationship with their dad/stepdad and I have made it clear that I do not want them to feel obligated to me or feel they have to choose, they are entitled to their relationship with their dad. The conversations went well....youngest who I have been most concerned with does not seem to hold hard feelings for either of us and is maintaining a relationship with us both.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Síocháin said:


> @jld, your idea makes sense. But, how do you get a PA person who thinks everyone else is the problem do that? I have offered that with our MC present. He said sure, I can do that. What happened, nothing. Because they don't mean what they say or say what they mean. They tell you what you want to hear & do what they please regardless of the impact on you. They just want the conflict to go away so they lie/procrastinate/blameshift/make intentional mistakes/change subjects or say they forgot.


That's exactly what my PA H did. Smile at the MC, nod his head, agree with her, agree to do the homework, and he tried to do the homework, upon my prompting (say 5 positive things a day) - for exactly five minutes, couldn't do it, and gave up. Wouldn't discuss it again.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

turnera said:


> That's exactly what my PA H did. Smile at the MC, nod his head, agree with her, agree to do the homework, and he tried to do the homework, upon my prompting (say 5 positive things a day) - for exactly five minutes, couldn't do it, and gave up. Wouldn't discuss it again.


One of our assignment is MC was we each were to write a little bit on why we liked our spouse. So I read mine first. Then husband reads his and it is like a poem, sugar sweet.....nothing like my husband AT ALL. Never heard these words. Counselor asks me what I thought. I told him it sounded nice but that husband copied it from the internet. he asks husband who denies he did such a thing. I told counselor that husband is not like this and I did not believe him. We leave the counselor's office and I ask him if he copied it off the internet and he tells me he did. next session I mention this to the counselor and he asks husband why he copied this off the internet. His response was he was running out of time and didn't know what to say. 

Again, nothing from the heart. Yet another disappointment. Lying to our counselor told me he would lie to anyone.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

katiecrna said:


> We literally just had an exhausting conversation about why his constant lying is a big deal and how it's not healthy, and it creates distrust in the marriage. He went on and on trying to prove to me that lying is not a big deal at all, he doesn't do it all the time, everyone does it, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.


No offense, but you're doing this wrong. It's not your job to convince him that he is wrong. It's not your job to get him to see that you're unhappy, even. 

What IS your job is to calmly and unemotionally explain to him what YOUR boundaries are, what YOU can live with, and then also explain to him what you're going to do to if he continues to do the things that hurt you (the consequence to the boundary). 

Remember that consequences have NOTHING to do with him. That would put him in control, and that NEVER works with a PA. Consequences are what YOU do - to protect yourself - if the PA chooses to do the harmful thing anyway, after you've asked them not to.

It's the only way they can learn. The easiest consequence is to leave - leave the room, leave the house, move out...depending on the boundary and how outrageous it is. But there are many other ways to enact a consequence.

Why is this the preferred way to deal with a PA, what professional therapists suggest? Because you are communicating what they do that hurts you, you are warning them that you will protect yourself from them, and you are TEACHING them that things will NOT continue as is and that if they choose not to stop doing the hurtful thing, well, they are welcome to, as you can't change him, but his life will be turned a little bit upside down as a result of HIS ACTIONS.

It's actually also the same method recommended for raising kids (the Authoritative Parenting method). Because it works. You give the other person control over themselves, but you also communicate that if they choose to do something bad or harmful, then they only have themselves to blame if they don't like the results.

This will take the struggle out of your marriage.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> One really helpful thing the non-passive aggressive partner can do is make it safe for the PA to be honest and direct. For example, listen and try to understand when he is expressing himself. Hear past his emotion to what his heart is feeling.


jld, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. This is NOT the problem PA's have; it will not work. Love and communication doesn't work in every circumstance. Some people are JUST MESSED UP and are not waiting for you to love them more. Sheesh.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

katie, you know what I would do about the lying? I would tell him that every time you catch him in a lie - which you specifically asked him to stop doing (your boundary) - you will take $XX out of the bank account, and move it into your own private savings account. (XX means, depending on what y'all's income is like - if you earn $50,000, take out $5; if you earn $500,000, take out $500)

It will do a couple of things. It will take away the 'conversation' of what IS and IS NOT a lie. YOUR definition of a lie (and I assume this won't be an issue of you taking advantage of him and making it unfair), so that you no longer have any conversations of whether he is or isn't lying - which is completely unproductive and puts you back in that spin mode. YOUR assessment of him lying - and trust me, he KNOWS when he's lying - is what will determine if you will then withdraw money. It's a lesson. It's taking money away from him/family (if he's a typical man, he's obsessed about the money). And it's also letting him see YOU growing this great, growing nest egg of money that YOU can then use to buy your OWN home and move away from him if he just.won't.stop.

That is how he will learn.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

turnera said:


> katie, you know what I would do about the lying? I would tell him that every time you catch him in a lie - which you specifically asked him to stop doing (your boundary) - you will take $XX out of the bank account, and move it into your own private savings account. (XX means, depending on what y'all's income is like - if you earn $50,000, take out $5; if you earn $500,000, take out $500)
> 
> It will do a couple of things. It will take away the 'conversation' of what IS and IS NOT a lie. YOUR definition of a lie (and I assume this won't be an issue of you taking advantage of him and making it unfair), so that you no longer have any conversations of whether he is or isn't lying - which is completely unproductive and puts you back in that spin mode. YOUR assessment of him lying - and trust me, he KNOWS when he's lying - is what will determine if you will then withdraw money. It's a lesson. It's taking money away from him/family (if he's a typical man, he's obsessed about the money). And it's also letting him see YOU growing this great, growing nest egg of money that YOU can then use to buy your OWN home and move away from him if he just.won't.stop.
> 
> That is how he will learn.


Wow. That sounds really controlling. Very manipulative. Maybe even illegal.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> The only thing that he says is that I have a temper at times and can say some mean things at the heat of one of my blow outs. And I 100% agree with this, sometimes I completely loose it. When we are trying and he doesn't acknowledge somthing and keeps denying or lying or trying to change the subject and the more I try to get him to understand while logic and he still refuses to see what I'm saying I get really annoyed. Sometimes I reach a point where I know I am about to flip out Bc I know that there is nothing I can say to him, that it is him being 100% difficult on purpose. Sometimes I can control myself and say stop! I can't talk about this Bc I am going to flip out, and I walk away. Sometimes I just loose my mind and flip out. I have apologized every time I have done it, and I never make an excuse. And I have worked on this personally. I have identified when I am about to loose it, and I say STOP! And I tell him I can't continue with this convo until I cool down. That is what happened last night. I was about to flip out Bc he was 100% wrong and being a ****, and I stopped myself and walked away. When I cooled off, I told him I was done. And that there is nothing I can say or do that will change anything. He knew I meant business, which is why he woke up today and cleaned (for once), and is acting really nice. That's what he does when he knows he ****s up. He says... See I love you so much, I did all the dishes. Doing dishes doesn't make up for the complete lack or respect he showed me last night, as well as argue with me to the death to defend his behavior Instead of just saying I'm sorry.
> 
> No he does not think I am controlling actually. People on this forum have told me I sound controlling but my husband has told me specifically that he doesn't feel like i am. I posted a thread asking if asking your husband to not to say certain things that offend you is controlling so maybe that's where you got that idea.


I asked you about his complaints because your working on them, if they are genuine, is a way to set a good example for him. And any time we improve ourselves, we benefit, regardless of how our partner responds.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

@jld I don't want to do that. I am trying to stop this mother child relationship. I don't want to police him then take away his allowance when he is bad. 

I am trying to set boundaries but at the same time try to encourage him to step up and be the man he needs to be. I don't want to chop his balls off. doing that will only make him more angry, and punish me more, then probably cheat on me.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> @jld I don't want to do that. I am trying to stop this mother child relationship. I don't want to police him then take away his allowance when he is bad.
> 
> I am trying to set boundaries but at the same time try to encourage him to step up and be the man he needs to be. I don't want to chop his balls off. doing that will only make him more angry, and punish me more, then probably cheat on me.


I am glad to hear you are not interested in financial manipulation. Any kind of manipulation is likely to backfire, and could look very bad for you in court, should you end up having a messy divorce. I would just not go there.

Could you give an example of a boundary you have set?

And remember, the root of anger is hurt and/or fear. Try to focus on the root, and not its manifestation.


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## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

turnera said:


> katie, you know what I would do about the lying? I would tell him that every time you catch him in a lie - which you specifically asked him to stop doing (your boundary) - you will take $XX out of the bank account, and move it into your own private savings account. (XX means, depending on what y'all's income is like - if you earn $50,000, take out $5; if you earn $500,000, take out $500)
> 
> It will do a couple of things. It will take away the 'conversation' of what IS and IS NOT a lie. YOUR definition of a lie (and I assume this won't be an issue of you taking advantage of him and making it unfair), so that you no longer have any conversations of whether he is or isn't lying - which is completely unproductive and puts you back in that spin mode. YOUR assessment of him lying - and trust me, he KNOWS when he's lying - is what will determine if you will then withdraw money. It's a lesson. It's taking money away from him/family (if he's a typical man, he's obsessed about the money). And it's also letting him see YOU growing this great, growing nest egg of money that YOU can then use to buy your OWN home and move away from him if he just.won't.stop.
> 
> That is how he will learn.


This is almost my suggestion. The difference is I was thinking of a fun or embarassing cost. Say he has to say "I love you" to you in front of friends, when normally he wouldn't. Or he to wash the dog, when normally he doesn't. And depending on the likely frequency you might need to say each three offences or each ten racks up a cost, or the poor dog may drown.

Can't say it is going to work, I haven't used it or seen it done. But people said passive aggressives just want it to be fun and for everyone to be happy, so make it a game, childish and fun. An adult logical open discussion would be great, pity that didn't work.


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## Síocháin (Mar 11, 2016)

Livvie said:


> Isn't it part of the codependent dance that when the enabler finally sets healthy boundaries, the relationship oftern goes to crap? Because the person with unhealthy maybe (emotionally) abusive behavior wants a partner who DOESN'T set boundaries and who expects a healthy relationship dynamic? That once they do, it isn't a codependent relationship anymore, and this doesn't work for the abuser... They need someone who will put up with their behavior?


 @Livvie
I thought about this a lot today. While my H has always been PA, it seemed when I started to pull back & started saying no & setting boundaries for myself it got so much worse. That was in 2011.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

NotEasy said:


> This is almost my suggestion. The difference is I was thinking of a fun or embarassing cost. Say he has to say "I love you" to you in front of friends, when normally he wouldn't. Or he to wash the dog, when normally he doesn't. And depending on the likely frequency you might need to say each three offences or each ten racks up a cost, or the poor dog may drown.
> 
> Can't say it is going to work, I haven't used it or seen it done. But people said passive aggressives just want it to be fun and for everyone to be happy, so make it a game, childish and fun. An adult logical open discussion would be great, pity that didn't work.


This won't work. First, you'd have to get him to agree he messed up - he never will. Second you have to get him to agree to do something that makes him look like the bad guy.

And that's the whole problem with a PA - never.their.fault and total unwillingness to deal with it.

The beauty and genius of what I described - and what ICs suggest - is that it requires NOTHING from the PA person. So you remove yourself from the cat and mouse dance of getting them to admit something's wrong. Which they'll never do and which gives THEM the power; meaning it leaves you sitting there waiting for them to do what they said they'll do.

And isn't that the problem in the first place?

The key is to STOP depending on them to fix things.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Síocháin said:


> @Livvie
> I thought about this a lot today. While my H has always been PA, it seemed when I started to pull back & started saying no & setting boundaries for myself it got so much worse. That was in 2011.


Have you ever read The Dance Of Anger? One of the most requested books by ICs for women.

It's about the person in duress CHANGING the dynamics from the situation in which the other person is just fine. To a situation in which the person in duress is less harmed. 

And, of course, guess what happens? The other person freaks.out.

The book calls it the "Change back!" dynamic. Change back to the person you used to be, the one who supported me, let me be an ass, who never asked anything of me, who let me rule the relationship...

All THEY want is for you to stop being 'all uppity' and go back to who you used to be, the Giver, the Enabler. 

But if you want the relationship to change, you have to be strong. You have to 'weather the storm' that's coming. Be willing to enact your consequences. No matter WHAT that person throws your way.

As I've said, in the end, the perpetrator learns that you will no longer be the Giver, Enabler, Victim. You will enact consequences, you will protect yourself, you will CHANGE THINGS, whether they like it or not.

As my IC explained it, once you pull away your enabling support, your 'propping him up,' you remove the third leg to the stool that is your partner, your partner will have two choices: to learn to stand up by himself and become a healthy partner since you won't let him be PA/abusive/whatever any more...or refuse to change and thus fall flat on his face...and THEN learn to stand up on by himself, since nobody is propping him up anymore.

No matter what, YOU taking a stand and no longer being willing to be that prop for him will benefit you. One way or another.


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## Síocháin (Mar 11, 2016)

@turnera I think I will read that book for myself. He moved out of the bedroom on Tuesday, took his ring off & blocked me from facebook & he is out somewhere. I think it's clear he made his choice. He wanted to talk after I had "calmed" down. No, he wanted to tell me why I was wrong feeling the way I do & why his behavior is my fault like ALL the other times. I told him I had had enough of his PA behavior. No need to talk.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Síocháin said:


> @turnera I think I will read that book for myself. He moved out of the bedroom on Tuesday, took his ring off & blocked me from facebook & he is out somewhere. I think it's clear he made his choice. He wanted to talk after I had "calmed" down. No, he wanted to tell me why I was wrong feeling the way I do & why his behavior is my fault like ALL the other times. I told him I had had enough of his PA behavior. No need to talk.


Our DD25 is a psych grad student. She knows SO much more than I have learned, lol. When my H - her father - pulls one of the PA behaviors, like guilting or claiming we hurt him or refusing to acknowledge he did something, here's what she says to his face: "I don't react to passive aggressiveness anymore. If you want something, say so. If you don't say so, it never happened. I go on without you."

It's amazing how much it's changed him.


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## Síocháin (Mar 11, 2016)

@turnera you have a smart young lady there. 

I think he & I are past that point. I have seen glimpses of his ugliness in the past but not on this level. I'm staying clear of him.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

turnera said:


> Síocháin said:
> 
> 
> > @Livvie
> ...


This led to the end of the relationship I was in. He said he liked who he was, was too old to change his responses because they are a part of him (50), and other girlfriends had loved him enough to accept his wounds/behaviors.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Livvie said:


> This led to the end of the relationship I was in. He said he liked who he was, was too old to change his responses because they are a part of him (50), and other girlfriends had loved him enough to accept his wounds/behaviors.


I think you dodged a bullet, Livvie. Can you imagine suffering through decades of marriage to him?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

jld said:


> katiecrna said:
> 
> 
> > @jld I don't want to do that. I am trying to stop this mother child relationship. I don't want to police him then take away his allowance when he is bad.
> ...


JLD I think maybe you have not ever been severely mistreated for a long time by your partner. Focusing on the root and not the manifestation means overlooking abuse! I was sadly divorced after 16 years. Then I met a wonderful man, but he ended up being emotionally abusive to the point of me starting to have health problems. The root is childhood wounds from mistreatment. Even though I understood where his behavior was coming from, the MANIFESTATION was doing great harm to me .


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Livvie said:


> JLD I think maybe you have not ever been severely mistreated for a long time by your partner. Focusing on the root and not the manifestation means overlooking abuse! I was sadly divorced after 16 years. Then I met a wonderful man, but he ended up being emotionally abusive to the point of me starting to have health problems. The root is childhood wounds from mistreatment. Even though I understood where his behavior was coming from, the MANIFESTATION was doing great harm to me .


It is perfectly fine to leave abusive men, Livvie. Quite advisable. I certainly would. 

But if a woman wants to stay and try to improve things, then seeking to understand him and set a good example for him by cleaning up her side of the street is an empowering approach to take.

She should also be brutally honest with him about how he treats her. That is an important tool to use. 

And quite frankly, her honesty is a gift to him. He may not be able to see his behavior on his own.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Síocháin said:


> @turnera I think I will read that book for myself. He moved out of the bedroom on Tuesday, took his ring off & blocked me from facebook & he is out somewhere. I think it's clear he made his choice. He wanted to talk after I had "calmed" down. No, he wanted to tell me why I was wrong feeling the way I do & why his behavior is my fault like ALL the other times. I told him I had had enough of his PA behavior. No need to talk.


When I told my husband I was done and wanted a divorce, that I could not longer do this, his response was, "we can talk about this when I get home." I told him that we were not going to talk about it, it was not debatable, I made my decision.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

jld said:


> It is perfectly fine to leave abusive men, Livvie. Quite advisable. I certainly would.
> 
> But if a woman wants to stay and try to improve things, then seeking to understand him and set a good example for him by cleaning up her side of the street is an empowering approach to take.
> 
> ...


All true but you also have to have a willing partner. Cleaning up your side of the street does not mean that the spouse will ever see any reason to change his or her behavior and when that behavior betrays the marriage and they do not want to look at it all a person is doing is staying and struggling with resistance, rejection and hurt on a daily basis.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Livvie said:


> This led to the end of the relationship I was in. He said he liked who he was, was too old to change his responses because they are a part of him (50), and other girlfriends had loved him enough to accept his wounds/behaviors.


And he was serious? Wow! How shallow!!! He really thinks the beginning stages of a relationship are forever and these women accept him.Maybe that's what he wanted you to hear. 

I have been married twice.....my first husband wanted to have 3-somes, he wanted sex all of the time (we were young) and there would be days that would be all we did was have sex all day. If a few days would pass and I didn't want sex he would go into these physical tantrums and tell me he was going to find someone that would give it to him. Talk about not feeling loved!!!! After 7 years of marriage I found out he was having an affair. He confessed, told me he knew it was wrong but that he liked what he was doing and that if we tried to work things out I could not trust him again. He cheated on her, she broke up with him, he remarried and cheated on her repeatedly. She filed for divorce when he wanted to have her best friend join them in a 3-some. Sure hope all that made him happy, he sure hurt alot of people along the way all for his "happiness," including 4 children from the two marriages.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

AVR1962 said:


> All true but you also have to have a willing partner. Cleaning up your side of the street does not mean that the spouse will ever see any reason to change his or her behavior and when that behavior betrays the marriage and they do not want to look at it all a person is doing is staying and struggling with resistance, rejection and hurt on a daily basis.


You do not improve yourself for him. His reaction is immaterial. You improve yourself for your own benefit.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

"A passive-aggressive man will see your unwillingness to rescue him as a rejection, reinforcing the perception of you as not loving him enough.On the other hand, the more you mother him, and the more he allows it, the more both of you have accepted his basic incompetence and inadequacy."

"When you assume responsibility or make decisions for the passive-aggressive man you have encouraged him to play a dependent role."

Quotes from the book"Living with the Passive-Aggressive Man" by Scott Wetzler.

I did assume too much responsibility for husband. There were things I would do to surprise him and he simply would not do them anymore like mowing the yard. When he saw I was capable of something that gave him less to do and if I would remind him the grass needed mowed (or whatever the situation was) he had some reason that he didn't see it needed done.....my expectations were higher than mine, he didn't think he needed to be done yet, always some reasoning. If I tried to help him with a project so we could spend time together he would leave me to finish the project. It was like any mutual sharing of decisions or time together was off limits, perhaps it made us too close emotionally and he was afraid of that. He had to be the opposing one, always some reason why we could not do this, ho there and buy this. I would make a choice on my own and it was wrong. One time I bought a vacuum cleaner, ours was junk. He told me to take it back. I refused and of course he was angry, I had not "obeyed" him and of course I had to pay the price for that. Yet, if he wanted to go out and buy a big screen TV, I was supposed to be tickled at his purchase. He had to have control.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

jld said:


> You do not improve yourself for him. His reaction is immaterial. You improve yourself for your own benefit.


Yes, I did not take your post that way however. Perhaps I read it wrong but the way I read it was that by cleaning your side of the street you can improve the marriage and that is where I was saying it takes two. One person gets healthy and the other does not, dynamics change and the other person stays stuck, it usually causes a wave that many times leads to couples going their separate ways.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

AVR1962 said:


> Yes, I did not take your post that way however. Perhaps I read it wrong but the way I read it was that by cleaning your side of the street you can improve the marriage and that is where I was saying it takes two. One person gets healthy and the other does not, dynamics change and the other person stays stuck, it usually causes a wave that many times leads to couples going their separate ways.


I agree it takes 2 to improve a marriage. However the real question is: Are you willing to leave the marriage?

If the answer is no, then what do you do?

The answer is simple:
1. Work on yourself for yourself
2. Take charge of your marriage. It does not mean mowing the grass. It means helping your husband deal with his emotion.

I know it may not be something you want to do, but what choice do you have short of leaving him?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

AVR1962 said:


> Yes, I did not take your post that way however. Perhaps I read it wrong but the way I read it was that by cleaning your side of the street you can improve the marriage and that is where I was saying it takes two. One person gets healthy and the other does not, dynamics change and the other person stays stuck, it usually causes a wave that many times leads to couples going their separate ways.


Indeed, when one starts to outgrow the other, there is often a parting of ways. I do not necessarily see that as a negative.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

jld said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > JLD I think maybe you have not ever been severely mistreated for a long time by your partner. Focusing on the root and not the manifestation means overlooking abuse! I was sadly divorced after 16 years. Then I met a wonderful man, but he ended up being emotionally abusive to the point of me starting to have health problems. The root is childhood wounds from mistreatment. Even though I understood where his behavior was coming from, the MANIFESTATION was doing great harm to me .
> ...


I wanted to stay. I gave it 5 YEARS. 5 years of swallowing hurt from his abuse in the staying and trying to work with him on this. Loving him, but letting him know how his lashing out horrible reactions or punishing withdrawal of himself hurt me. Showing him how sorry I was that he felt neglected in childhood, even crying with him about it. He continued to want to have his same reactions to life, to me, and to dish out abusive reactions. Didn't care that they were ruining me, and the relationship. It didn't feel empowering, it was exhausting and detrimental to my well being. I imagine it's only empowering if your partner realized they don't want to keep abusing you for their past and works with you.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Livvie said:


> I wanted to stay. I gave it 5 YEARS. 5 years of swallowing hurt from his abuse in the staying and trying to work with him on this. Loving him, but letting him know how his lashing out horrible reactions or punishing withdrawal of himself hurt me. Showing him how sorry I was that he felt neglected in childhood, even crying with him about it. He continued to want to have his same reactions to life, to me, and to dish out abusive reactions. Didn't care that they were ruining me, and the relationship. It didn't feel empowering, it was exhausting and detrimental to my well being. I imagine it's only empowering if your partner realized they don't want to keep abusing you for their past and works with you.


By empowering, I mean she is not just sitting there saying nothing and feeling like a victim. That is paralyzing.

So glad you got out, Livvie. Why do you think it took five years, though?


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Those of you who have been married to a PA spouse I have a question for you that I've been thinking about a lot. Not your spouses specifically but generally speaking... Do you think PA spouses are capable of actually feeling love? Can they feel a deep connection with another human being?


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I don't know what to do with my husband. I don't ever see him admitting he had a problem and changing. I do believe I can modify his behavior to "please me", but then he would do it Bc he is a robot if that makes sense. but for me the bigger problem is the lack of connection we have. I keep thinking being with a non PA spouse would be so amazing but I think I am channeling the grass is greener on the other side saying. I know everyone has problems and I know every single man out there would annoy me in one way Bc no one is perfect. I'm thinking about pushing anti depressants on my husband to see if he will be happier. He admits he's depressed but won't do anything.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

katiecrna said:


> Those of you who have been married to a PA spouse I have a question for you that I've been thinking about a lot. Not your spouses specifically but generally speaking... Do you think PA spouses are capable of actually feeling love? Can they feel a deep connection with another human being?


I have asked myself that very same question. I look at my husband and the connections to friends and family that he has and there are very few I would say he actually loves.....his sisters, his dad and I do think he loves his children but that is it. I think though if any one of them were to upset him, hurt him, stand up to him it would change how he feels about each and every one of them.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

katiecrna said:


> I don't know what to do with my husband. I don't ever see him admitting he had a problem and changing. I do believe I can modify his behavior to "please me", but then he would do it Bc he is a robot if that makes sense. but for me the bigger problem is the lack of connection we have. I keep thinking being with a non PA spouse would be so amazing but I think I am channeling the grass is greener on the other side saying. I know everyone has problems and I know every single man out there would annoy me in one way Bc no one is perfect. I'm thinking about pushing anti depressants on my husband to see if he will be happier. He admits he's depressed but won't do anything.


Each person has their good and their bad and we are supposed to accept the bad with the good. My question to you would be if you are happy with him? Is he able to meet your needs emotionally? Can you enjoy time together? Do you feel a mutual connection? These are things to look at seriously.


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## Síocháin (Mar 11, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Those of you who have been married to a PA spouse I have a question for you that I've been thinking about a lot. Not your spouses specifically but generally speaking... Do you think PA spouses are capable of actually feeling love? Can they feel a deep connection with another human being?


 @katiecrna In all honesty, I don't think they can. My H has no empathy at all.

A very good friend died a few years ago very suddenly & unexpected. We use to go out with him & his wife a lot. I had just talked to him that morning. I took it really hard. He went out to a birthday party the night of visitation & didn't take time off to go to the funeral. I went alone.

If they can't feel pain then they can't feel love IMO. It's superficial during the dating process until you commit. Then they have you. Well, as long as you let them.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

This morning I was checking a blog I had started over 4 months ago. I had started the blog to help me deal with leaving my passive-aggressive husband of 24 years. I had started into counseling and was told my "fight or flight" which is common in PTSD was damaged and it was believed to have been from dealing with the craziness of contradiction,uncertainty and covert abuse from the marriage. My counselor worked exercises with me to help calm my anxiety, I was having an awful lot of anxiety....my blood pressure was up, my heart was doing funny things. I was a mess, to say the least! I am so thankful for the expertise and wonderful kindness of my counselor who helped to put me on the right road to good health!! My 19 year old daughter looked at me yesterday and said, "mom, are you losing weight? You look great!" I am not sure I have lost a pound but I feel so much better. My heart is no longer do funny stuff, I am breathing easy, and I know the road ahead. It took me alot to get to this point, not just the 4 months counseling....I had over 4 years of therapy prior. I have learned so much about my self, why I have done what I did, what kept me stuck for so long and why what played into my hurt towards my husband. I also learned about addiction which my husband faces on a daily basis....sadly unless an addict faces himself and his addiction, the addiction will always win in a relationship.

For those of you who feel like you are sinking under the ocean waves with only a nose above water, or that you have been backed into a corner like and feel like you are fighting like a wild animals to get out of that corner, pay attention to what your body is trying to tell you. These were my first indications of my messed up "fight or flight" (PTSD). We think of this "disorder" in connection to military veterans but a person in a bad marriage can experience trauma as well. Every victim of abuse experiences some, if not multiple, symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder. These symptoms linger many years; some for a lifetime. Everyone knows this but it's rarely bought up...During our period of abuse, the brain collects thousands of memories that contain details of our abusive experiences and the feelings (horror, terror, pain, etc.) made at that time. In what we call "traumatic recollection," any similar experience in the future will recall the emotional memory of the abuse, forcing us to relive the event in detail and feeling.

Passive-aggressive behavior is covert abuse. When someone hits you or yells at you, you know that you've been abused. It is obvious and easily identified. Covert abuse is subtle and veiled or disguised by actions that appear to be normal, at times loving and caring. The passive aggressive person is a master at covert abuse and, as a result can be considered an abuser.


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## 2ndchanceGuy (Sep 28, 2015)

OP, My wife treated me like you say you are treating yours. 

I divorced her...... it worked like a charm , never been happier.... 

so her divorcing you should fix it


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

I finished my book on Passive-Aggressive Men, got to chapter 8 "Sex and the Passive-Aggressive Man" and nearly got sick to my stomach. Here it was in black and white, written by a man with a PhD in the field, what I have been saying and feeling all these years. Here's a quote, "By turning an act of pleasure and intimacy into little more than hormones, chemistry and imminent conquest, he corrupts the experience for himself and for you......Once he has you hooked, he cuts you off- suddenly and cleanly. He works at charming you, tantalizing you and creating a need in you and then he turns you down......Some men fight the truth and play innocent, he is afraid of rejection. Since women bring out these fears he will not make a real sexual advance, waiting for you to make the first move. This will make him feel in control. in his mind since sex is up to the female there is no since in him placing himself in a vulnerable position. By doing nothing but being there, he became the object of desire, and sought after. I boosts his self-esteem."

All these years I have been trying to understand this. With those close enough I could share this with, they could not comprehend. The last sentence made me feel ill.....he just had to be there, an object of my desire which boost his self-esteem....yuck!!!!! You know how hard I tried?? How sick!!!!!


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