# Mind-Games?



## sniperwifey (Apr 30, 2017)

Hello! I am new here, and of course, you guessed it, its because I am going through a divorce (sort-of).

Long story short, my husband and I were married for almost 6 years and created a beautiful daughter who is 4. My husband is also ex-military and came with all of that good PTSD. I will say, all of us come with baggage, his is more heavy. He had anger issues, temper tantrums, and some verbal abuse. So that ended up making him an attacker, and me, I withdrew. We both did not understand relationships.( Yes, I am in therapy, and he has gone to therapy but he is now inconsistent and does not take it seriously - he was going weekly, and now its once or twice a month). Nonetheless, I kept trying, while he remained in his cycle. I kid you not, he threatened divorce throughout our ENTIRE marriage. I was no saint, I was an attacker mid-marriage, to defend myself, which I know is wrong. So I withdrew instead. The year I withdrew, was the year he became extremely distant, and aggressive with the divorce threats. I took advice, I told my husband that if that is what he wants, then that is what will happen, but it is not what I want. I supported his decision. 5 months fly by, and he has not filed. He did continue to threaten divorce, just no actions. So, one day he breaks down and cries and apologizes and wants to work it out. Great, I set up marriage counseling immediately. Unfortunatly we did not make it to MC because he once again said he wanted a divorce. He continued to get in my face about it, and I ended up packing my stuff and leaving with out daughter. He repeatedly said this divorce is not what he "wants." And I believe it was impulsively decided and emotionally driven (PTSD), and now he has dug this hole his ego can't survive. He said his purpose of threatening divorce was to expedite change from me (which I actually find offensive, because I believe we BOTH needed to make changes.)

We are miles away in a different state now. And all he demands is a divorce. He is very withdrawn at times, but other times he can't help but discuss how I f***ed it all up. Apparently his choice of divorce was my fault. Anywho, he comes to visit our daughter about once a month. We have been separated for 2 months now. My issue is, he is visiting as we speak, and he stands firm on us never reconciling. He says he does not want to confuse our daughter, yet, he invited me to dinner and he came over to my house to play. I find that confusing! Not only that, he has brought over very vague, half-ass documents of our agreements, which aren't that bad. He wants to save money on divorce so he wanted to make agreements and just settle that way. But, he hasn't filed, and he only showed me a draft? 

Its confusing. I kid you not, 2 weeks ago he was interactive with me and actually leading me on. And now this. I am so confused.

I will admit, that I made it clear that I do not want this divorce. Any advice? We made a great team, just never knew how to communicate properly. Am I supposed to do the 180? Any suggestions? I'm so confused and hurt.

Do I leave the divorce alone? Do I go file?


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## sniperwifey (Apr 30, 2017)

*Re: Husband is playing games? Doesn't want to confuse our child but…?*

Anyone?


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

As much as you don't want divorce you should file. It's not uncommon for the one who claims to want divorce to not file. 

He is basically enjoying single life exploring his options. He is keeping you around as a fallback position sorry to say. He is unwilling to make changes in himself to improve the marriage, playing the blame game as to its downfall and current state. You don't have many options. File for divorce and put your foot down that your done playing this game with him. Either he wakes up and truly puts some effort into saving the marriage or you will be divorced. 

Divorce doesn't have to cost a great deal of money if the two of you are in agreement on things. He's afraid you'll hammer him in court and you should speak to a lawyer to know your rights and options before agreeing to anything.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

sniperwifey said:


> My husband is also ex-military and came with all of that good PTSD.


Perhaps he does suffer from PTSD, Wifey. I note, however, that the behaviors you describe -- i.e., irrational anger, controlling behavior, easily triggered temper tantrums, lack of impulse control, black-white thinking, always being "The Victim," and rapid flips between Jekyll (adoring you) and Hyde (devaluing you) -- are classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). 

An important issue, then, is WHEN your H started exhibiting these abusive behavioral symptoms. If they are the symptoms of having strong BPD traits, they almost certainly started showing strongly by his mid-teens. They would have disappeared during your courtship period because his infatuation over you would have held his two great fears (abandonment and engulfment) at bay. Typically, that infatuation starts evaporating about 4 to 6 months into the R/S -- or, at the latest, it will start evaporating whenever you start living together.

In contrast, if the anger arises from PTSD, it would have started showing only after he had experienced a trauma during his war assignments -- perhaps in his mid to late twenties. Do you absolutely know _for a fact_ that these behavioral symptoms started showing only after his wartime experiences? Do you know for a fact that he experienced a terrible trauma while serving in the military?

If not, I suggest you take a quick look at my list of _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_ to see if most sound very familiar. If they do, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you. Take care, Wifey.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

I agree with Honcho and file yourself. He is just trying to assert control over you and have a relationship in which you are completely subservient and desperate to keep the marriage alive. Nothing good comes from a relationship with that dynamic. You will lose all respect from both him and yourself. Maybe your filing will lead him to get serious about reconciling and maybe it won't. Either way it will show him that you have a spine and will stand up for yourself. If he does beg for forgiveness, then you start to make the demands and get what you want from him. Be firm and fair, but hold him accountable. I'm going through a similar scenario, and filing was the most liberating thing I did for myself in years.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

What he is doing is very common for men to do. He wants a divorce, but just leaves. He will not file because as long as he does not file, he is not obligated to pay child support and/or spousal support. Basically he has walked away from his marriage and is living the singles life.

This is one of the reasons that women file for about 70% of divorces. It's not that women are walking out of their marriages about 70% of the time. It's that very often, when men want out of the marriage they won't file because they believe that they will be hit hard financially if they file.

It sounds like it is time for you to file. You have a little girl who you need to take care of so you need to make sure things are taken care of legally.


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## sniperwifey (Apr 30, 2017)

Uptown said:


> Perhaps he does suffer from PTSD, Wifey. I note, however, that the behaviors you describe -- i.e., irrational anger, controlling behavior, easily triggered temper tantrums, lack of impulse control, black-white thinking, always being "The Victim," and rapid flips between Jekyll (adoring you) and Hyde (devaluing you) -- are classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder).
> 
> An important issue, then, is WHEN your H started exhibiting these abusive behavioral symptoms. If they are the symptoms of having strong BPD traits, they almost certainly started showing strongly by his mid-teens. They would have disappeared during your courtship period because his infatuation over you would have held his two great fears (abandonment and engulfment) at bay. Typically, that infatuation starts evaporating about 4 to 6 months into the R/S -- or, at the latest, it will start evaporating whenever you start living together.
> 
> ...


It is funny you brought up BPD. I suspected he had BPD, and also bought the "Stop Walking on Eggshells" book. I have a hard time labeling, because there is no true way to diagnose him, myself. I know that he does fit the traits of BPD, and his mother does as well, which would be a red flag. You're on point about the infatuation period, that is exactly the time-frame we held, 6 months. He showed no symptoms of PTSD, but then again, the stressors happened after he got out of the military, and its not uncommon for PTSD to become apparent when they discharge. He does fit the criteria for BPD, and I always thought he behaved differently than others. There was definitely the cycle of black & white thinking, I often referred to this as a "off/on switch." It was oddly easy for him to go one way and then pretend it never happened and go the other way. It drove me insane, because every problem was ignored. Thanks everyone for the information. I do agree its a power struggle, but I will mention that he hasn't left me financially. He is responsible and sends a good amount monthly, always on time. 

Any suggestions if it is BPD? I know its a mental illness. This is why I suspect we went through the roller coaster of divorce/no divorce for 5 years. A part of me sympathizes but then theres reality, and its a tough reality, but he hasn't filed. ANd I am weary of filing myself.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

sniperwifey said:


> I have a hard time labeling, because there is no true way to diagnose him myself.


Wifey, you don't have to diagnose anything to spot strong BPD traits. We all know what these behavioral traits look like because we all exhibit them to some degree. It therefore is not difficult to spot strong occurrences when you learn which behavioral traits are on the list. That part is easy.

What is hard is being able to diagnose the existence and cause of the full-blown disorder. No doctor on the planet can do a true diagnosis of BPD or any other PD. That would require professionals to identify its underlying cause, which is yet unproven. All discussions of BPD traits, then, are simply descriptions of behavioral symptoms, i.e., warning signs. Those symptoms do not describe the traits or characteristics of the disorder causing the symptoms. Hence, discussing BPD behavioral symptoms is not an attempt to diagnose that underlying disorder -- i.e., not in the way the term "diagnose" is used in every medical field. 

Importantly, you don't go to a medical doctor to be told what symptoms you have. Instead, YOU tell the doctor all about your symptoms. Similarly, when you go to an auto repair shop, you don't go to be told about your car's symptoms. Rather, YOU tell the repairman what problems the car is exhibiting and he diagnoses the situation to tell you what is causing those symptoms to occur. Whereas you identify all the symptoms, the repairman's diagnosis identifies the cause of those symptoms so that it can be fixed. 

Hence, whereas _diagnosing a cause_ is the province of professionals, _describing and identifying symptoms_ is the province of laymen (i.e., the client seeking help). This is why, when a patient is unable to identify disease symptoms, that disease is said to be "asymptomatic," i.e., "without symptoms." By definition, then, symptoms are traits that laymen are able to spot -- without trying to diagnose anything. 

Because psychologists are unable to actually diagnose the underlying cause of these personality disorders, they are forced to rely on a severe occurrence of the behavioral symptoms to infer the existence of some underlying (but unproven) disorder. That is, when the symptoms are sufficiently severe and persistent, the professionals ASSUME that there must be a disorder causing it. 

Only a professional, then, can determine whether the strong BPD behaviors you see are sufficiently severe and persistent as to be called full-blown BPD. Yet, because they don't know for sure what that "BPD Disorder" consists of, it may be the very same mental disorder that causes narcissism, sociopathy, and other PDs. 

Of course, you lack the professional training necessary to declare such behaviors "full blown." This does not imply, however, that you are unable to spot moderate to strong occurrences of these behaviors. On the contrary, you were able to spot behaviors such as temper tantrums, verbal abuse, and irrational jealousy by the time you entered high school. 



> I know that he does fit the traits of BPD.


As noted above, the description of BPD in the American diagnostic manual (DSM-5) identifies only its behavioral symptoms. It does not describe the disorder causing those symptoms. Hence, if you are seeing a strong pattern of BPD symptoms, it is perfectly fine for you to say "I am seeing a strong pattern of BPD symptoms." That statement does not imply you are attempting to do a diagnosis. Indeed, after being married to this man for six years, you would have to be deaf, dumb, and blind to NOT see BPD symptoms like temper tantrums, impulsiveness, strong verbal abuse, and rapid flips between adoring you and devaluing you.

I caution, however, that exhibiting a strong pattern of BPD traits does NOT imply a person suffers from the disorder called "BPD." All adults exhibit all of the BPD traits to some degree (at a low level if they are healthy). Moreover, all people exhibit temporary flareups which usually are caused by strong hormone changes (e.g., puberty, pregnancy, postpartum, PMS, or perimenopause) or drug abuse. 

It is only when these strong BPD traits are "persistent" that they are said to be caused by the (unproven) lifetime disorder itself. Persistence generally means that the child started developing the disorder in early childhood and started exhibiting strong traits in the early teens. It also means that those traits will not disappear for several years and then reappear. Typically, the only time the strong traits disappear entirely is for several months during the infatuation period of courtship, as I discussed above.



> His mother does as well [i.e., also "fits the traits of BPD"].


Recent studies suggest that, when a parent has full-blown BPD, each child has a 20% to 30% chance of developing it. Because these studies are all based on small sample sizes, these results are only suggestive, not definitive. They are statistically significant, however. Moreover, the most recent study, which seems to be the most rigorous, supports the 30% figure.



> My husband is also ex-military and came with all of that good PTSD.


Having strong BPD traits does not rule out having PTSD. On the contrary, the folks who develop lifetime BPD are so overly-sensitive and immature that they are at far greater risk of developing PTSD when experiencing a trauma in adolescence or adulthood. A recent study of nearly 35,000 American adults found that about 40% of BPDers develop PTSD at some point in their lives. See Table 3 at 2008 Study in JCP.

Significantly, both BPD and PTSD are believed to arise from trauma (combined, perhaps, with a genetic predisposition). Generally, the current theory is that, when trauma occurs at age 5 or later, it can produce the behavioral symptoms seen in PTSD. These traits include flashbacks, frightening thoughts, and bad dreams. When the trauma occurs before age 5, however, it generally is far more damaging because it can bring the child's emotional development to a screeching halt. 

The child thus never has the opportunity in childhood to learn how to build a stable self identity, how to control his own emotions, how to do self soothing, how to trust others, how to intellectually challenge intense feelings instead of accepting them as "facts," how to avoid black-white thinking by tolerating strong conflicting feelings, and how to be "mindful" (i.e., how to remain focused on the present instead of escaping through daydreams into the past and future). If your H is so immature that he lacks these basic emotional skills (ego defenses, actually), his behavioral symptoms will go far beyond those of PTSD.



> He threatened divorce throughout our ENTIRE marriage.... we went through the roller coaster of divorce/no divorce for 5 years.


BPDer relationships are notorious for having multiple breakups. A BPDfamily survey of about 460 such relationships found that nearly a fourth of them (23%) -- like your relationship -- went through 10 or more complete breakup/makeup cycles BEFORE finally ending for good. About 40% of the BPDer relationships experienced at least six breakup/makeup cycles before ending. And 73% had three or more breakup/makeup cycles before finally ending. See "Results" at BPDfamily Breakup/Makeup Poll. 



> It *drove me insane*, because every problem was ignored.


 if you really have been living with a BPDer for nearly 3 years, "insane" is exactly how you should be feeling. Because BPDers typically are convinced that the absurd allegations coming out of their mouths are absolutely true -- they generally have a greater "crazy-making" effect than can ever be achieved by narcissists or sociopaths. 

This is why that, of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual, BPD is the _one most notorious _for making the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds. And this is largely why therapists typically see far more of those abused partners -- coming in to find out if they are going insane -- than they ever see of the BPDers themselves.

Nothing will drive you crazier sooner than being repeatedly abused by a partner whom you know, to a certainty, must really love you. The reason is that you will be mistakenly convinced that, if only you can figure out what YOU are doing wrong, you can restore your partner to that wonderful human being you saw at the very beginning.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

sniperwifey said:


> Any suggestions if it is BPD?


Wifey, in that event I offer several suggestions:

*The first step* is to see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your young daughter are dealing with. (Your existing therapist may suffice if he/she is very experienced with PD issues.) This is important because, as a responsible parent, your first action should be to assess the risk confronting your daughter. 

The reason for obtaining a candid opinion about the symptoms (not a diagnosis) from your own therapist is that you cannot rely on your H's therapist to be candid if your H is a BPDer. Therapists generally are loath to tell a BPDer (or his spouse) the name of his disorder. This information is routinely withheld to protect the disordered client. 

Hence, when BPD is likely involved, relying on your H's therapist for candid advice during the marriage would be as foolish as relying on your H's attorney for advice during the divorce. It this is important to see a psychologist who will not be seeing or treating your H. That way, he is ethically bound to protect only YOUR best interests. And this means you two should not be sharing the same psychologist for independent counseling.

*Second*, consult with a divorce attorney who is experienced in dealing with child custody cases against a very vindictive spouse. If your H is a BPDer, the divorce and custody battle likely be get very nasty very quickly. It would be prudent to supplement that advice with tips offered by the book, _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist_. 

*Third*, start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com, which offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. That forum is targeted to the family members of BPDers, not the BPDers themselves. The two message boards that likely will be most helpful are the _"Detaching from a Borderline"_ board and _"Co-Parenting after the Split"_ board.

*Fourth*, while you're at BPDfamily, read the articles: Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD and Leaving a Partner with BPD. At other websites, I recommend these online articles: Fathers Divorcing, and High Risk Parenting, and Pain of Breaking Up, and Divorcing a Narcissist.

*Fifth*, read an explanation of how we excessive caregivers get to be this way during our childhood. The best explanation I've found is Shari Schreiber's article, Do You Love to be Needed? Schreiber argues that, due to childhood dynamics with parents, our desire to be _needed _(for what we can do) FAR exceeds our desire to be _loved_ (for the men we already are). If you've been married to a BPDer for 6 years, you almost certainly are an excessive caregiver like me.

*Sixth*, although you believe your H has strong BPD traits, do not try to persuade him of that. If he is a BPDer, he almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you. Because the projection occurs entirely at the subconscious level, he will consciously believe YOU are the BPDer. Instead, simply encourage him to see a good psychologist (not a MC) and let the psych decide what to tell him. As I said, the psych likely will only tell him about the co-occurring "clinical" disorders such as PTSD, bipolar, anxiety, depression, or panic disorder -- but will avoid mentioning BPD. (Low functioning BPDers, however, generally are told.)

*Finally*, please don't forget those of us on this TAM forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences, you likely are helping numerous other members and lurkers. Your thread has already attracted nearly 300 views in just one day.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> What he is doing is very common for men to do. He wants a divorce, but just leaves. He will not file because as long as he does not file, he is not obligated to pay child support and/or spousal support. Basically he has walked away from his marriage and is living the singles life.
> 
> This is one of the reasons that women file for about 70% of divorces. It's not that women are walking out of their marriages about 70% of the time. It's that very often, when men want out of the marriage they won't file because they believe that they will be hit hard financially if they file.
> 
> It sounds like it is time for you to file. You have a little girl who you need to take care of so you need to make sure things are taken care of legally.


..


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

I think it sounds like he does not actually want a divorce; he wants the relationship to get better, but has no idea how to accomplish that. It will take hard work on his part, such as intense counselling and personal reflection, so he turns away from it. He wants you to do it isntead, but the problems aren't with you, so it's impossible.


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## sniperwifey (Apr 30, 2017)

Thank you! I really can't thank you enough. I appreciate EVERYTHING you have said, and it gives me a lot of clarity & I truly appreciate the support. I will look into all of the resources you have listed. Thank you so much! xoxo. Take care.


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## sniperwifey (Apr 30, 2017)

I will keep updating my progress. BPD is a nasty thing to endure and I can't thank all of you enough. I do hope that this thread can help others as well. Thank you UPTOWN. You've been especially helpful. Cheers!


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

sniperwifey said:


> I will keep updating my progress. BPD is a nasty thing to endure and I can't thank all of you enough. I do hope that this thread can help others as well. Thank you UPTOWN. You've been especially helpful. Cheers!


 @Uptown is isolated from us folks in the Hinterland.

And rightly so.

You see..... when he comes visit and does the "Sign of the Cross".
When he sprinkles the Holy Water...

He leaves us no hope, even for @Hope1964..... who left us in the lurch and moved to Canada.

If only that grey mass.... on that thin stalk, atop weary shoulders would let our beautiful bodies bump and rub....in blissful peace. Ala Carte, ala @peacem


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