# Going out with an opposite gender friend..



## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Bit torn looking for advice.
Wife is former SA-WW. 5 years into R. Back in the day, she’d go to happy hours with co-workers all the time (not really affair related so she says). 

My ex-assistant was my support person both prior to and after DD; about 5 years. She left the firm 2 years ago. Wife was ok with that relationship for a few years until she met her and discovered she is attractive. Then it became a problem. Strong boundaries were discussed with both ladies and put in place to keep it from sliding into an affair.

Anyway, wife has convinced herself we had probably had an affair or will have an affair. 

She freaks whenever we want to get together. Yesterday the assistant contacted me to set up a time to get together and catch up. She’s living with her new boyfriend, it’s looking serious, and I miss our deep philosophical conversations; I want to do this. I also don’t want the wife there; They don’t like each other and even my wife knows our conversations always turn to relationships and self-growth stuff. 

I immediately told my wife of the contact and asked her if she could deal with it. She said no. Hardly any discussion other than she doesn’t trust her or me together and refuses to allow her past and what I went through be used against her. 

So early in the R, I’d say f’ it. Wife doesn’t have any say or right to tell me what to do after what she’s done. But we’re pretty far along now. I do have to consider my wife. Thus I’m torn….

Do I do something I know my wife will freak about? I can argue either side and leaning toward doing it and everything I can do I know helps keep her informed; being open and transparent, checking in, and so forth. My wife will have to deal with her own emotions and worries. And I know I’m strong enough to deal with whatever possible ramifications she might come up with… I just don’t look forward to it and dread having to turn it into a major confrontation. 

Thoughts?


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## Welsh15 (Feb 24, 2014)

If she was your support person, then I say go ahead and catch up. Tell WW she owes you this as part of your recovery process.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

hmmm ..tuff one, if you R is truly on a good path then I might stay away from this conflict and not go.

it never ceases to amaze me that Wayward spouse always project onto the BS.

You know in the future she will probably go to lunch with a opposite sex co-worker and just not tell you.

on second thought I like Welsh15 post.
she was a good friend when you needed it
she is in a relationship with someone else (less likely for anything to happen)


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Racer said:


> I immediately told my wife of the contact and asked her if she could deal with it. She said no. Hardly any discussion other than she doesn’t trust her or me together and *refuses to allow her past and what I went through be used against her.*


But she's using it against you...?


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Do I do something I know my wife will freak about? I can argue either side and leaning toward doing it and everything I can do I know helps keep her informed; being open and transparent, checking in, and so forth. My wife will have to deal with her own emotions and worries. And I know I’m strong enough to deal with whatever possible ramifications she might come up with… I just don’t look forward to it and dread having to turn it into a major confrontation. 

Thoughts?[/QUOTE]

*give her a real reason to freak out, ask for a Hall Pass*


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Be she's using it against you...?


yep Gus is absolutely right

I missed that


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Racer said:


> Hardly any discussion other than she doesn’t trust her or me together and *refuses* to allow her past and what I went through be used against her.


Refuses. Really?

I for one believe some consequences to the WS are lifelong. One of those would be more rigid boundaries with the opposite sex; because she has demonstrated they are necessary. You on the other hand have not demonstrated that.

But there are two reasons why you might not want to do this. One, it will piss her off. Two, she might think that her opposite sex boundaries are now off the table.

If it were my wife Racer, I would explain about that life long consequence. I would tell her that if she ever discovers I've had an A, then they can be applied equally if we stay married.

So me, I'd say f*ck it and go ahead.

To add: but don't get in an EA with her.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> Be she's using it against you...?


Can you say double standard?
So given her "history" in her mind is she going to think that since you are going to meet her then she can "justify" then stepping out again.:scratchhead:
Tough one.
If you don't meet her she's got you by the [email protected] but if you do is she going to screw around again.
Why not have eh, how about a cookout at your place and she brings her bf.
The two ladies can tolerate each other for a few hours.
Or if the worst happens you have an awesome cat fight and grab some popcorn.
Kidding.


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## thummper (Dec 19, 2013)

Racer said:


> Bit torn looking for advice.
> Wife is former SA-WW. 5 years into R. Back in the day, she’d go to happy hours with co-workers all the time (not really affair related so she says).
> 
> My ex-assistant was my support person both prior to and after DD; about 5 years. She left the firm 2 years ago. Wife was ok with that relationship for a few years until she met her and discovered she is attractive. Then it became a problem. Strong boundaries were discussed with both ladies and put in place to keep it from sliding into an affair.
> ...


The answer to your question is "NOPE!" Not if you are serious about an R. If you truly "dread" having it turn into a major confrontation, then don't do it. Easy, huh?


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

GusPolinski said:


> Be she's using it against you...?


Not really... She's never been keen on me going out. Kind of a control issue she has.

Regular friends, I tell her to basically get over it and do what she does for me to help; Check-in on facebook (location), party pics which also generate comments for those that were there. To pacify her fear that I'm hooking up with women. Oh, and another... I don't do much to dissuade that notion that I am more than capable of attracting the opposite sex.

But this one is 'tricky'. It is strictly a one on one with a attractive female where the subject matter discussed is a lot like here, including SIM type things. So it's much more than just drinks and bs. Deeper thoughts.... I'm guessing she's probably fishing for advice about marriage and how you know. She has no father figure, her mother is BPD, and her friends are 'wild child' (open relationships, gay, etc.). And as 'off' as I am and problematic on the relationship front, she's found my advice works in her relationships and self-growth....


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

You're posting in CWI, so you're likely to get a lot of BS who think you should just walk all over your FWW like she's a used rag because of what she did. I'll give you a different perspective.

First of all, *her affair does not give you a license to treat her like **** for the rest of your marriage.* Her feelings still matter. She's still a _person_, for crying out freaking loud. I can only imagine the sadness it would bring upon me if my H told me he was going to hang out with this chick whether I liked it or not, and tell me and my feelings to F off, like you're pretty much telling your W. 

Okay, hanging out with someone of the opposite sex is not smart to begin with. When you got back with your W to begin with, you should have ended that friendship with the opposite sex because it is ALWAYS a source of temptation and even more so when you're at a weak position in your marriage like now. So second of all, even if it was smart, the fact that it hurts/bothers your W should be enough for you to not do it. *Her feelings matter.* Even if she serial cheated with 40 guys, if you decided to R then included in that process is her feelings mattering. Just like in any normal relationship. You do not get to do whatever you wanted and be selfish just because you gave her another chance. It means your relationship is *a lot* more fragile now and that should be even MORE reason for you to not hang out with this chick. *You are a married man. You need to be at home working on your marriage with your wife, not out with another woman.*

If you can't do that, then I suggest you two go to marriage counseling, because it sounds like you don't know how to do a proper R.


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## Pamvhv (Apr 27, 2014)

I understand she's in the wrong and you're the betrayed but she's also dealing with a lot of guilt and fear. I feel like the way you talk about this other person- it would scare me too. I feel it could easily slide into EA territory. I feel this is how my wayward husband started with his EA. So even though this may be an unpopular opinion I can understand how your wife feels even if she has no right to feel it because she was the betrayer.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

Racer said:


> Not really... She's never been keen on me going out. Kind of a control issue she has.
> 
> Regular friends, I tell her to basically get over it and do what she does for me to help; Check-in on facebook (location), party pics which also generate comments for those that were there. To pacify her fear that I'm hooking up with women. Oh, and another... I don't do much to dissuade that notion that I am more than capable of attracting the opposite sex.
> 
> But this one is 'tricky'. It is strictly a one on one with a attractive female where the subject matter discussed is a lot like here, including SIM type things. So it's much more than just drinks and bs. Deeper thoughts.... I'm guessing she's probably fishing for advice about marriage and how you know. She has no father figure, her mother is BPD, and her friends are 'wild child' (open relationships, gay, etc.). And as 'off' as I am and problematic on the relationship front, she's found my advice works in her relationships and self-growth....


Either figure out how to build a bridge between this friend or let the friendship fade away. The types of discussions you are mentioning are intimate conversations that could very easily lead the two of you into an EA if not slipping eventually into a PA. Your wife may not have your respect on the matter of boundaries, but you should complement her on recognizing one.

Just make sure she realizes that if you apply this boundary in your life it goes double for her. That if she has a one on one with a coworker you will consider it a violation of your reconcilliation.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

you have a ****ty marriage...On top of all her numerous infidelity issues, she also has control issues?



> Hardly any discussion other than she doesn’t trust her or me together and refuses to allow her past and what I went through be used against her.


What a hypocrite


Your choice. You are going back to the habits that led you to your situation. If this something she struggles with and tries to understand.. it is a different issue. She just doesn't care.





> I just don’t look forward to it and dread having to turn it into a major confrontation.


Read this a few times!!

I get the kids angle but this is no way to live!!!


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

I wish you had a revenge affair with her full knowledge..


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

ariel_angel77 said:


> You're posting in CWI, so you're likely to get a lot of BS who think you should just walk all over your FWW like she's a used rag because of what she did. I'll give you a different perspective.
> 
> First of all, *her affair does not give you a license to treat her like **** for the rest of your marriage.* Her feelings still matter. She's still a _person_, for crying out freaking loud. I can only imagine the sadness it would bring upon me if my H told me he was going to hang out with this chick whether I liked it or not, and tell me and my feelings to F off, like you're pretty much telling your W.
> 
> ...


Read his threads before you spout off the cliche stuff.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Sticking my foot in it.

Don't go. This is my reason why. You shouldn't put yourself in a situation where your actions could be misinterpreted. You don't go out with a single woman on what looks like a date. For example my Secretary years ago had a terrible car. Always had problems. She would not let me give her a ride home. I would call my wife and have her drive out pick her up and take her home. Another example: My widowed sister and her son invited me to dinner to celebrate an accomplishment I had helped her son with. My Wife was scheduled for work. I felt nervous the whole time. 
History, innocent intentions, and wife's feelings aside, what you are proposing is just not smart.
MN


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

QUOTE=Mr. Nail;9661906]Sticking my foot in it.

Don't go. This is my reason why. You shouldn't put yourself in a situation where your actions could be misinterpreted. You don't go out with a single woman on what looks like a date. For example my Secretary years ago had a terrible car. Always had problems. She would not let me give her a ride home. I would call my wife and have her drive out pick her up and take her home. Another example: *My widowed sister *and her son invited me to dinner to celebrate an accomplishment I had helped her son with. My Wife was scheduled for work. I felt nervous the whole time. 
History, innocent intentions, and wife's feelings aside, what you are proposing is just not smart.
MN[/QUOTE]

Wait... Your widowed sister? do you mean widowed sister-in-law?

or was you widowed sister really hot.... Just kidding 

If it is you sister, you should not be uncomfortable having dinner with her and her son, your nephew .... ?:scratchhead:


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I don't think this is a good idea if you're all into R. And I detect a slight double standard here.....seems to me i've seen a couple of threads with a wh upset that his wife had male friends, at which point wife is told that even though hb was unfaithful he still has the right to demand boundaries if they're in R. So the men here would be ok with a wife having male friends if her hb had been unfaithful and they were reconciling? I think not.

Either divorce your wife or behave like a married man. That's the advice a woman would get.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

You chose to R with her so, no, you don't get to see your former assistant given the fact that your wife is uncomfortable about that relationship and you know it. If she weren't then it might be different but she totally is and nothing should be more important than making R a success since that was your choice. It's very tempting to use her affairs and all she's done in the past as an excuse to see your friend but don't do it.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

convert said:


> Wait... Your widowed sister? do you mean widowed sister-in-law?
> 
> or was you widowed sister really hot.... Just kidding


Just for clarification my younger sister is a widow raising 2 teenagers.
MN


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

warlock07 said:


> Read his threads before you spout off the cliche stuff.


Meh.. Ariel isn't wrong. That's part of R. At some point, you have to let go of that rage and feelings of vengeance and stop using the past as a hammer. It influences, but shouldn’t be leverage…

I’m just in that tweener stage. 5 years post DD. So I can argue both sides in my head. “Entitled to do this” is sort of there emotionally, but I’m not really ‘entitled’ to go on a date which it just might be; Can't deny there is mutual attraction, however there is also respect of where that line is for both of us. So it’s a choice. I want to, but don’t want to face ramifications. I’d love to cake eat and that temptation was there to ‘just not tell her’… but I know how that feels when you discover. So, I let the wife know about it rather than cover the tracks (which could have been done and can still be quite easily). 

To add more complexity to the whole thing. If this girl threw herself at me, I really don’t know how I would react. I am a damaged, betrayed husband who is still in a ‘less than robust’ sexual life with my spouse. And this girl is not a ‘friend of the marriage’; She hates my wife and what she did to me.

Doing it is neither safe nor smart. I’m not exactly known for those things either…..

And my wife has always been the super-jealous sort. Now though, it is overboard because she knows I have every excuse in the world to cheat on her… she did it for less after all. It’s one of those long term ramifications that will always haunt her… She knows I could.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Racer said:


> Meh.. Ariel isn't wrong. That's part of R. At some point, you have to let go of that rage and feelings of vengeance and stop using the past as a hammer. It influences, but shouldn’t be leverage…
> 
> I’m just in that tweener stage. 5 years post DD. So I can argue both sides in my head. “Entitled to do this” is sort of there emotionally, but I’m not really ‘entitled’ to go on a date which it just might be; Can't deny there is mutual attraction, however there is also respect of where that line is for both of us. So it’s a choice. I want to, but don’t want to face ramifications. I’d love to cake eat and that temptation was there to ‘just not tell her’… but I know how that feels when you discover. So, I let the wife know about it rather than cover the tracks (which could have been done and can still be quite easily).
> 
> ...


Racer I want to ask you an honest question - are you happy in your marriage? I'm not beng snarky I'm serious.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

lifeistooshort said:


> I don't think this is a good idea if you're all into R. And I detect a slight double standard here.....seems to me i've seen a couple of threads with a wh upset that his wife had male friends, at which point wife is told that even though hb was unfaithful he still has the right to demand boundaries if they're in R. So the men here would be ok with a wife having male friends if her hb had been unfaithful and they were reconciling? I think not.
> 
> Either divorce your wife or behave like a married man. That's the advice a woman would get.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Double standard is fine…. She was allowed to go out with male co-workers without me. Then crossed over to 1on1 dating. She couldn’t handle the freedom, took advantage of my trust and had affairs. Therefore, she will never again be given that trust. That is her. We are back at a phase where I’m ok with her going on GNO’s and have systems in place to help me trust and cope. 

Me: I haven’t cheated. Haven’t crossed that line. Have shown there is a stop sign in my head repeatedly even when sex has been offered and I could have had RA’s. So the rules are different on that. Beyond having every excuse in the world to cheat, I’ve resisted and could be trusted. I haven’t taken advantage of her trust. It’s based on the individual. 

And ‘all into R’… Not my story. Quick summary.. Decided on R thinking probable EA, possible PA. The R started as a lie. Its more “surviving and making the best” than a real R or ideal marriage. You shouldn’t ‘strive’ to have what we’ve got… most would run from it.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Racer said:


> Double standard is fine…. She was allowed to go out with male co-workers without me. Then crossed over to 1on1 dating. She couldn’t handle the freedom, took advantage of my trust and had affairs. Therefore, she will never again be given that trust. That is her. We are back at a phase where I’m ok with her going on GNO’s and have systems in place to help me trust and cope.
> 
> Me: I haven’t cheated. Haven’t crossed that line. Have shown there is a stop sign in my head repeatedly even when sex has been offered and I could have had RA’s. So the rules are different on that. Beyond having every excuse in the world to cheat, I’ve resisted and could be trusted. I haven’t taken advantage of her trust. It’s based on the individual.
> 
> And ‘all into R’… Not my story. Quick summary.. Decided on R thinking probable EA, possible PA. The R started as a lie. Its more “surviving and making the best” than a real R or ideal marriage. *You shouldn’t ‘strive’ to have what we’ve got… most would run from it*.


Then why do you stay married to her?


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## Aspydad (Oct 17, 2013)

Married people should not have emotional relationships with friends of the opposite gender. Very bad idea and your wife is correct to want your relationship to end. Is this other woman that important to you? Are you in love with her? If not - why the heck would you put your relationship at risk over this woman? Wouldn’t you be much better off focusing on your wife?


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Racer I want to ask you an honest question - are you happy in your marriage? I'm not beng snarky I'm serious.


lol... I am happy with her and who she is. She adds value to my life, the family, and so forth. She doesn't bring misery.

I have difficultly saying it's a marriage. So I can't be happy with what I don't have. What it is doesn't meet my ideals of 'how a marriage should be'. I have a relationship with her, but it is most definitely missing components that would make it a marriage.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Racer said:


> Doing it is neither safe nor smart. I’m not exactly known for those things either…...


That's why we are here.

MN


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Racer said:


> lol... I am happy with her and who she is. She adds value to my life, the family, and so forth. She doesn't bring misery.
> 
> I have difficultly saying it's a marriage. So I can't be happy with what I don't have. What it is doesn't meet my ideals of 'how a marriage should be'. I have a relationship with her, but it is most definitely missing components that would make it a marriage.


It's ok to want more out of life Racer and seek more whether it is with your wife or another person. You seem to be in this state of low intensity misery. Racer you have one life - live it to the fullest with or without the wife.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Racer said:


> I have a relationship with her, but it is most definitely missing components that would make it a marriage.


Which hauls it full circle. Part of what is missing are deep philosophical discussions and that interaction. Part of what is missing is those open, non-judgmental discussions where you aren’t wrong but aren’t right for them either. That is what the assistant is for me. She’s a thinker….

My wife is ‘fun girl’. We laugh and joke and have a good time talking non-sense.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

But I would argue that she shouldn't have been allowed to go out with male coworkers. That's the kind of sh!t that happens when you go out with the opposite sex without your spouse. So you have a double standard issue with your wife; are you sure you want to be married to her and does she still go out with other men? If so you don't have a real
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

You can only do so much to pacify her without limiting your own capacity to live your life. 

I remember on another thread some place that you described the relationship that you had with this woman... and although I understand why it makes your wife uncomfortable, I also think it is mostly due to her own insecurities and demons that you have no control over. Although you can play into those issues, they really are hers. 

If you refer to the thread about trusting 100%, the majority (if not all) do not. That said, she doesn't have to (and may not be able to) trust you 100%, but hopefully she can trust you enough. 

As previously mentioned, it was her that damaged the trust between the two of you, and as a result she will feel residual impacts of the breech. 

I'd go.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Racer said:


> Which hauls it full circle. Part of what is missing are deep philosophical discussions and that interaction. Part of what is missing is those open, non-judgmental discussions where you aren’t wrong but aren’t right for them either. That is what the assistant is for me. She’s a thinker….
> 
> My wife is ‘fun girl’. We laugh and joke and have a good time talking non-sense.


So to expand a bit because of the ‘its ok to want more’ thoughts.

I mostly want to joke around, laugh and talk non-sense. I like playing… but I also want those deeper discussions sometimes; it isn’t as strong. So I seek that out… These forums for example. But forums are limited and nothing at all like the fluidity and momentum and passion of 1 on 1 discussion. So I like talking more than writing…..

So I find ways to get more out of life than relying on this one single person (my wife) to fill my every want and desire. I don’t think anyone could fill that role. She does a good job as far as her personal limitations allow. But she can’t do it all and it actually is hard to find ‘brain candy’ people of a kindred spirit with that intelligence. None of my male friends ‘get it’. I know one other woman that does, but I’m seriously attracted to her and avoid her like the plague knowing I’d do something ‘bad’… I know another who seems to be on that same page, but would still be in that same situation with the wife and the opposite gender. One possible guy, but our personalities clash and other areas like political views. I sync with that assistant… It’s ‘unfortunate’ she’s attractive and young; otherwise my wife (who’s a bit shallow) wouldn’t see her as a threat. And admittedly, I kind of like talking deep with attractive young ladies… doesn’t hurt my ego one bit.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Racer said:


> To add more complexity to the whole thing. *If this girl threw herself at me, I really don’t know how I would react. I am a damaged, betrayed husband who is still in a ‘less than robust’ sexual life with my spouse. And this girl is not a ‘friend of the marriage’; She hates my wife and what she did to me.*
> 
> Doing it is neither safe nor smart. I’m not exactly known for those things either…..


with this added info you can't go.

I think if your WW knew this she may not let you go on guys night out.


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

Racer said:


> I just don’t look forward to it and dread having to turn it into a major confrontation.
> 
> Thoughts?





Racer said:


> She doesn't bring misery.


Until you go... that confrontation sounds like it'd be pretty miserable to me.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

convert said:


> with this added info you can't go.
> 
> I think if your WW knew this she may not let you go on guys night out.


Meh... by the same token I have no idea and question how I'd react to any female throwing herself at me.

Back when it was happening and I had offers, my wife was hyperbonding. Daily sex and my Achilles heel (physical touch love language). Now though? Once a month. I've been getting vocal about it and she's not working on it and I have no hope she really will though I see small things that there is an effort of sorts. 

So, I'm a hurt, sexually starved, feeling unwanted, and undesired, betrayed husband. And she knows this. 

A sick part of my mind might argue doing this, threatening her position as the 'sole source' of sex, might throw her and she'd start doing something to 'secure' her position knowing she can't rely on a ring I no longer wear. But I can't control that... she could easily go the other way just to 'get me back'. Who knows for sure...


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

I've got one more thought on this Racer.

Let's say your wife had never cheated. Would you still go to meet this friend? If so, then the answer is clear. Go ahead. Otherwise, in effect, your wife's own betrayal would be the reason you don't. Not fair to you.

On the other hand, if you wouldn't have, then you're offering this up as an extended consequence to her. If you feel that's just, so be it.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

warlock07 said:


> Read his threads before you spout off the cliche stuff.


Agreed. Big time.



ariel_angel77 said:


> You're posting in CWI, so you're likely to get a lot of BS who think you should just walk all over your FWW like she's a used rag because of what she did.


While I don't quite belong to said group...



ariel_angel77 said:


> First of all, her _*multiple affairs*_ do not give you a license to treat her like **** for the rest of your marriage. Her feelings still matter. She's still a _person_, for crying out freaking loud. I can only imagine the sadness it would bring upon me if my H told me he was going to hang out with this chick whether I liked it or not, and tell me and my feelings to F off, like you're pretty much telling your W.


First off, I fixed ^that for you. And Ariel, you're correct... having committed himself to the reconciliation of his marriage, he should be "all in"... _*and so should she.*_

This also means that she should stop treating him like sh*t. Granted, that might be hard for her, because she's been doing it for a loooooooooong time.



ariel_angel77 said:


> Okay, hanging out with someone of the opposite sex is not smart to begin with.


I tend to agree w/ this, and especially if there is any sort of emotional, intellectual, or physical attraction.



ariel_angel77 said:


> When you got back with your W to begin with, you should have ended that friendship with the opposite sex because it is ALWAYS a source of temptation and even more so when you're at a weak position in your marriage like now.


Eh, I wouldn't quite go there. Should he be spending time alone w/ her, though...? Probably not. Hell, I'd think that her boyfriend wouldn't be too comfortable w/ it either, at least not if she's being honest w/ him about a) how close she and OP have been in the past, b) the difficulties that OP has had in his marriage, and c) that she and OP were especially close during these times.

OP, why couldn't this be a double date? OK, so your wife doesn't like her; does she think that you're overly fond of her multiple APs? Perhaps you could _*gently* suggest that she get the f*ck over herself._



ariel_angel77 said:


> So second of all, even if it was smart, the fact that it hurts/bothers your W should be enough for you to not do it.


Again, this is a two-way street. She should be willing to compromise. After all, one would think that OP has earned a bit of latitude for himself in this regard, especially considering all that he's forgiven, in addition to all that he suffered in order to fully discover and understand exactly what it was that he was being asked to forgive.



ariel_angel77 said:


> Her feelings matter. Even if she serial cheated with 40 guys, if you decided to R then included in that process is her feelings mattering. Just like in any normal relationship. You do not get to do whatever you wanted and be selfish just because you gave her another chance. It means your relationship is *a lot* more fragile now and that should be even MORE reason for you to not hang out with this chick. You are a married man. You need to be at home working on your marriage with your wife, not out with another woman.


Well, not quite 40... at least not that OP has said. As for this rest of ^this, I _mostly_ agree.



ariel_angel77 said:


> If you can't do that, then I suggest you two go to marriage counseling, because it sounds like you don't know how to do a proper R.


Ariel, I like you and all, but this comes off as condescending, insulting, and judgemental.



Pamvhv said:


> I understand she's in the wrong and you're the betrayed but she's also dealing with a lot of guilt and fear. I feel like the way you talk about this other person- it would scare me too. I feel it could easily slide into EA territory. I feel this is how my wayward husband started with his EA. So even though this may be an unpopular opinion I can understand how your wife feels even if she has no right to feel it because she was the betrayer.


We feel what we feel, and we usually can't help that. What we can help is the degree to which we allow our feelings to drive our behavior. She shouldn't get away w/ projecting her bullsh*t onto OP.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Racer said:


> Meh... by the same token I have no idea and question how I'd react to any female throwing herself at me.
> 
> Back when it was happening and I had offers, my wife was hyperbonding. Daily sex and my Achilles heel (physical touch love language). Now though? Once a month. I've been getting vocal about it and she's not working on it and I have no hope she really will though I see small things that there is an effort of sorts.
> 
> ...


OK, so... Why not divorce?


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Pepper123 said:


> Until you go... that confrontation sounds like it'd be pretty miserable to me.


Meh.. I'm a big picture sort. A bad day or even days doesn't 'ruin the rest'. Also, we've gotten good at arguing where it actually has some resolution where we both walk away not feeling too bad about any of it.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

badmemory said:


> Let's say your wife had never cheated. Would you still go to meet this friend? If so, then the answer is clear. Go ahead. Otherwise, in effect, your wife's own betrayal would be the reason you don't. Not fair to you.


Lol… It makes it even more confusing. I was the doormat and the wife was the jealous sort. So I would have lived in absolute fear of those consequences or ramifications. So no way would I have gone.

Now I don’t live in fear of that argument. I just wonder how far she’s going to go off the rails and how respectful I should be of her issue that I don’t share. This isn’t worth losing the marriage over, but might be IF she’d actually be willing to take it that far. She just might… she’s crazy too.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

GusPolinski said:


> OK, so... Why not divorce?


Ok, why should I? Why shouldn't I stay married and have sex with others? Why shouldn't I go eat lunch? What should I eat for lunch?...

All just questions I've already made choices about. I can also change my mind. Just haven't yet. I go with my totally irrational gut.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Racer said:


> Meh... by the same token I have no idea and question how I'd react to any female throwing herself at me.
> 
> Back when it was happening and I had offers, my wife was hyperbonding. Daily sex and my Achilles heel (physical touch love language). Now though? Once a month. I've been getting vocal about it and she's not working on it and I have no hope she really will though I see small things that there is an effort of sorts.
> 
> ...



This isn't R. This is you and your wife falling back into the old patterns. You know my opinion of your wife and her halfa$$ approach to the marriage.

Go.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Racer said:


> Lol… It makes it even more confusing. I was the doormat and the wife was the jealous sort. So I would have lived in absolute fear of those consequences or ramifications. So no way would I have gone.
> 
> Now I don’t live in fear of that argument. I just wonder how far she’s going to go off the rails and how respectful I should be of her issue that I don’t share. This isn’t worth losing the marriage over, but might be IF she’d actually be willing to take it that far. She just might… she’s crazy too.




The entitled mind cannot be reasoned with.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Oh.. and thank you all for your opinions. I really do appreciate it. I haven’t made up my mind either way but do think I need to sit down with the wife and just lay it all out there and see if maybe this once she can have a deep conversation without allowing her crazy monkey to start throwing poo….

If she can’t; Then I have my answer. I still need someone to have a deep intelligent conversations with and unless my wife is willing, she can’t fulfill that role.

The sex thing is harder. I know she’s thinking about it and solutions, but she’s not yet taking action beyond the usual induendo and ramping up the intimacy without sex (cuddling, groping, etc.). So I’ll just let her do it her way and continue to be sounding board for whether it’s working or not.

So I'm off.... going to lunch; cold pizza.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I couldn't stay married to a woman who was not meeting my needs intellectually or sexually. I have to have a gal I can talk with as an equal. Is your wife simple or just shallow?


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

Racer said:


> Ok, why should I? Why shouldn't I stay married and have sex with others? Why shouldn't I go eat lunch? What should I eat for lunch?...
> 
> All just questions I've already made choices about. I can also change my mind. Just haven't yet. I go with my totally irrational gut.


You seem to recognize you are at risk, and meeting with this girl could result in a PA if she was to make you an offer. You sound very conflicted, but remember the pain your WW caused you. You may want to return the favor, but how would you feel about that choice?

If you are not happy, figure out what has to change. Is it more sex, more communication. If that is not possible for her, then propose an open marriage or divorce. 

I'm hurt by my WW's choices. We are now divorcing, and I'm still in a lot of pain. But I'm also proud of my choices and how I've reacted to her affairs. I gave her opportunities to R, she shat on those and I filed. It was clean, and I can move on without regrets that I could have done more. She even offered me a hall pass at one point. I told her point blank that me F'ng another person wasn't going to help our relationship. 

Make a good choice, enforce your boundaries and hold your head high. It's not the easy thing to do, but it does lead to better things. 

My kids, my in laws and friends have a lot of respect for how I've handled the end of my marriage. That all started with how I handled the opportunity for R. I was all in. So, is your wife worth going all in on the R for? You put yourself at risk she will hurt you again. So, don't say yes unless you mean it. If you mean it, then be all in.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> This isn't R. This is you and your wife falling back into the old patterns. You know my opinion of your wife and her halfa$$ approach to the marriage.
> 
> Go.


Racer you are a good guy but I agree with Bandit.
I am surprised you are still married.
how many men was it like 6 and 1 woman.
Maybe it's the end of the line but only you can decide that.


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

I'm sure you have the situation under control, but since you asked us, this is my perspective. I wouldn't allow such a friendship. 

Granted a "friendship," wherein deep feelings and relationship topics were discussed, led to my wayward's affair. There does seem to be some danger here for you, and from her perspective, that threat must be much greater. Going out with an opposite sex friend with whom you share a deep connection against your wife's wishes, a friend who hates your wife and knows of the affair, etc... might not be the best thing for your R.

A few way in which you seem to be dancing around the ring of fire: Having deep conversations, including about love and relationships. Low boundaries, e.g. playing around with and liking the attention from younger, attractive ladies. Resentment towards the spouse, both for her affair and for her projection and controlling behavior. You yourself said this woman was not a friend of the marriage, either. Would you allow your wife to go out with a guy friend if the situations were reversed?

It sounds like you don't hide the fact you could and would get freaky with other women if your wife slips again. Fair enough I guess since she slipped first and you're putting your sex appeal on display, but I'd be paranoid in her shoes, too. What are you after in terms of your R? A tense stand-off based on mutually-assured destruction, or actually putting concepts of reconciliation and affair-proofing into practice? 

I'm sure your wife has her appeal or you never would have married her or attempted R, but you don't seem entirely happy. Meanwhile, this friend sounds like good times and good convo. I don't think many people here, especially BSs, would think any less of you for being unsatisfied or simply wanting to talk to a good friend. I don't. I just don't think it's entirely wise if you admit there are risk factors, your wife is dead-set against it, and you really want a healthy R.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

If you remove the cheating from this the whole thing is inappropriate. Even though it's your wife that can't be trusted and you've been honest it's still inappropriate within a R and marriage. It sounds to me like you don't have much of a marriage, so why not end it? A private friendship with an attractive woman that is not a friend of your marriage is not going to help anything. If it's that important to you why not file for divorce?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Racer said:


> Meh.. Ariel isn't wrong. That's part of R. At some point, you have to let go of that rage and feelings of vengeance and stop using the past as a hammer. It influences, but shouldn’t be leverage…
> 
> I’m just in that tweener stage. 5 years post DD. So I can argue both sides in my head. “Entitled to do this” is sort of there emotionally, but I’m not really ‘entitled’ to go on a date which it just might be; Can't deny there is mutual attraction, however there is also respect of where that line is for both of us. So it’s a choice. I want to, but don’t want to face ramifications. I’d love to cake eat and that temptation was there to ‘just not tell her’… but I know how that feels when you discover. So, I let the wife know about it rather than cover the tracks (which could have been done and can still be quite easily).
> 
> ...



You probably have some kind of stockholm syndrome(Yeah, I throw words like that without having any professional degree). Anyone who would call themselves your friend would hate your wife


The way she is setting boundaries is insulting and damaging. The situation now turned out to be "I cheated on you, so I cannot trust you with any other woman". If the genders are swapped, this would be called an abusive relationship. But you use your incredible powers of rationalization to continue it somehow. 

The default behavior with a SO is "Trust until the person shows you a reason to betray you." She has no reason to feel betrayed by you and she is throwing these accusations of both of you cheating to control you. the whole thing reeks of manipulation.

She f*cked up. If she wants something out of you that is because of her own infidelity, she should request you or discuss it with you about it so that you two can come to an agreement like a couple. Not just shutting you out of disdain.

And most messed up thing in your relationship, the more normal she becomes, the more at risk your relationship is. Because of her serial affairs, messed up thought process, childhood issues or whatever it is, you cannot be safe with her in a normal balanced relationship where you both hold equal power

This is a incredibly f*cked up situation in any normal relationship where you have to keep your spouse on their toes. But unless she always feels that she is risking losing you, you will never be safe with her. The moment she takes you for granted is the moment she risks going back to her old ways.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

I know you have put up with a LOT.

But the double standard re opposite sex friends isn't going to make your R or your marriage any better, and could certainly make things worse. Especially when this is someone who ISN'T going to be a cheerleader for the marriage (a friend of the marriage) since she was a support person for YOU. Looks like and quacks like slippery slope.

You need intellectual stimulation - how about taking a class?


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> You probably have some kind of stockhol syndrome(Yeah, I throw words like that without having any professional degree). Anyone who would call themselves your friend would hate your wife
> 
> 
> The way she is setting boundaries is insulting and damaging. The situation now turned out to be "I cheated on you, so I cannot trust you with any other woman". If the genders are swapped, this would be called an abusive relationship. But you use your incredible powers of rationalization to continue it somehow.
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:
She should not be hanging with male coworkers after work either without you. Period.
You are going to have to put your foot down.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Racer said:


> Meh... by the same token I have no idea and question how I'd react to any female throwing herself at me.
> 
> Back when it was happening and I had offers, my wife was hyperbonding. Daily sex and my Achilles heel (physical touch love language). Now though? Once a month. I've been getting vocal about it and she's not working on it and I have no hope she really will though I see small things that there is an effort of sorts.
> 
> ...


For someone like you who has been on TAM for some time, you are probably back to where you were before her affairs. The safer she feels, the more mistreated you are. 


Alpha, beta all that stuff..... You are becoming your own victim.
you also failed her sh!t test and made your position worse if you believe in stuff like that...


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

Racer said:


> Meh.. I'm a big picture sort. A bad day or even days doesn't 'ruin the rest'. Also, we've gotten good at arguing where it actually has some resolution where we both walk away not feeling too bad about any of it.


In this case... I'd be even more likely to go, if you think that you can trust yourself.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Your wife has psych issues which go beyond simply being a cheater. Your actions will send a strong message one way or another to her.

If you go, it sends the message that you are more important to you than your wife is. If you do not go, it sends the message that she can control you. And I do believe that control is a big motivator for your wife.

My vote is that you go, but always be in a very public location. Meet at a restaurant and leave separately. If you can think of some way to provide assurance to your wife that you were only at the restaurant, then you negate her worry that you are f'ing this woman. You could enable Find-My-Phone if you have an iPhone, and then your wife could see on a map where you are.

I think your wife's accusations are not sincere, in that she doesn't really believe you will have an affair with this woman. But she may really be jealous that you have this good relationship with the other woman which she is unable to have due to her own brain being mis-wired.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Racer said:


> Meh... by the same token I have no idea and question how I'd react to any female throwing herself at me.
> 
> Back when it was happening and I had offers, my wife was hyperbonding. Daily sex and my Achilles heel (physical touch love language). Now though? Once a month. I've been getting vocal about it and she's not working on it and I have no hope she really will though I see small things that there is an effort of sorts.
> 
> ...


married under blackmail ?

How old are the kids?


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Racer said:


> Bit torn looking for advice.
> Wife is former SA-WW. 5 years into R. Back in the day, she’d go to happy hours with co-workers all the time (not really affair related so she says).
> 
> My ex-assistant was my support person both prior to and after DD; about 5 years. She left the firm 2 years ago. Wife was ok with that relationship for a few years until she met her and discovered she is attractive. Then it became a problem. Strong boundaries were discussed with both ladies and put in place to keep it from sliding into an affair.
> ...


Coming in late and haven't time to read the entire thread.

But my bottom line is simple...

Respect your wife. 

If you can't, then get out.


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

Thor said:


> *Your wife has psych issues which go beyond simply being a cheater.* Your actions will send a strong message one way or another to her.
> 
> If you go, it sends the message that you are more important to you than your wife is. If you do not go, it sends the message that she can control you. And I do believe that control is a big motivator for your wife.


:iagree:

Insecurity sounds like a big one to me.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

thatbpguy said:


> Coming in late and haven't time to read the entire thread.
> 
> But my bottom line is simple...
> 
> ...


No need to read the entire thread... at least not this one.

Read this one instead...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/73257-my-story.html

After reading ^that, you may very well feel the need to change your reply to simply...

"Get out."


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

bandit.45 said:


> Is your wife simple or just shallow?


She is insanely complex as hell part of why I love the hell out of her. She is very emotional, passionate, etc. She thinks, a lot, too much I believe, and it sways her passion and emotions that in-turn drive her thoughts. But she keeps the process trapped inside. It isn’t rational driven; She’s emotionally driven. That lead to more and more dominoing thoughts about us, me, and her past and how it all plays out. She creates the vision (or whatever irrational conclusions she makes) And all of it is behind the curtain. What spews out is anger as though I’d already done this.

I can blow through it and that’s my plan. I know if I go it will be an argument. So, might as well just face it up front and get that deeper conversation with my wife. It’s just how I have to do it that sucks. I really just prefer to talk like humans, but alas, my wife’s inner wall is too strong to allow reason to work. So I embrace the irrational and crank down on that emotional.

Poking the badger until she just starts spewing what’s rolling through her head because she can’t hide behind that wall IF I drive her emotions and passion so high she forgets herself. That is how we can have deep conversations. Seriously… That’s when she can open up, laugh about what her emotions do and how it dominos. It’s fantastic when it happens and she opens that door to what is really going on in her head. Just ugly as hell to get there. I don’t like to have to have knock down fights to have a deep conversation, but that’s how she works…. It shifts from ‘anger and venom’ to highly passionate, intelligent (and irrational) discussions about the crazy monkey of emotions and how they affect her ability to think clearly. 

So she really is smart, intelligent, etc. But allows that to control her external façade not realizing that when irrational emotion warps, what comes out of her mouth hardly seems thought out or fair. I say; “Going out to have a beer with an old co-worker.”… and what’s projected back is more like I might of said “I’m going to the store to buy some condoms and then going to bang this girl in a hundred different ways you won’t let me do to you, all while laughing at you and how dumb you are. You deserve it!”

Oh… lovely dysfunction…


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

Take your wife with you and go talk to your friend with her there.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

tom67 said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> She should not be hanging with male coworkers after work either without you. Period.
> You are going to have to put your foot down.


Oh no... she doesn't do that anymore. If there's an office thing, we go together. She does do GNO's, skips any late ones, etc. even if I'm ok with it like the overnight one to a friend who lives across the state. She's uncomfortable doing this stuff now.

Also... this isolation thing is nothing new. Since we started dating, she's been insanely jealous of any woman getting near me. She's been crazy about me even going out with the guys.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

warlock07 said:


> married under blackmail ?
> 
> How old are the kids?


lol... at times it's a hostage situation. She did threaten suicide, and all sorts of stuff in the past. What I don't know for sure is if she's starting to revert toward her old petty ways, or if the work she's done over the last 4 years or so have really changed her.

I mean who knows how much is the act and how much is the actor when she has that wall inside and keeps it all locked up? 

Kids are 12, 14, 16....


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

harrybrown said:


> Take your wife with you and go talk to your friend with her there.


Assistant suggested a double date. It's one of the considerations, but we couldn't have our normal talk. To give you an idea about the oddball boundaries, we haven't really talked about anything like you would with a real friend... So it's sort of like taking someone from your support group out for a beer. 

That means there's no point to even setting it up since I'm looking for stimulating conversation, not chit chat guarded bs I can get anywhere.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Can you casually meet up with her at a coffee shop and catch up that way it's out in the public.
Do you think, and I mean no disrespect, that you have been mentally abused so long that you don't recognize it or you have just sort of...given up.
Okay I'll stop playing Freud.
You have a great weekend.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Racer said:


> lol... at times it's a hostage situation. She did threaten suicide, and all sorts of stuff in the past. What I don't know for sure is if she's starting to revert toward her old petty ways, or if the work she's done over the last 4 years or so have really changed her.
> 
> I mean who knows how much is the act and how much is the actor when she has that wall inside and keeps it all locked up?
> 
> *Kids are 12, 14, 16....*


Only logical reason I can see why you stay with this woman. Hell, an alcoholic can LOVE Jim Beam and also realize that he/she can no longer consume it. Your financial situation must royally suck if you divorce. That, IMHO, is why you are willing to work on making a silk purse out of a sows ear.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> You probably have some kind of stockholm syndrome(Yeah, I throw words like that without having any professional degree). Anyone who would call themselves your friend would hate your wife
> 
> 
> The way she is setting boundaries is insulting and damaging. The situation now turned out to be "I cheated on you, so I cannot trust you with any other woman". If the genders are swapped, this would be called an abusive relationship. But you use your incredible powers of rationalization to continue it somehow.
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Wholeheartedly.

Awesome post batman.


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

Racer said:


> She is insanely complex as hell part of why I love the hell out of her. She is very emotional, passionate, etc. She thinks, a lot, too much I believe, and it sways her passion and emotions that in-turn drive her thoughts. But she keeps the process trapped inside. It isn’t rational driven; She’s emotionally driven. That lead to more and more dominoing thoughts about us, me, and her past and how it all plays out. She creates the vision (or whatever irrational conclusions she makes) And all of it is behind the curtain. What spews out is anger as though I’d already done this.
> 
> I can blow through it and that’s my plan. I know if I go it will be an argument. So, might as well just face it up front and get that deeper conversation with my wife. It’s just how I have to do it that sucks. I really just prefer to talk like humans, but alas, my wife’s inner wall is too strong to allow reason to work. So I embrace the irrational and crank down on that emotional.
> 
> ...


My BF would tell you that I am the exact same way. 

Does she have someone in her past that hurt her deeply? I'm curious as to the root of some of these walls and insecurities...

ETA: NVM... just refreshed my memory of your story


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Racer said:


> Kids are 12, 14, 16....





Plan 9 from OS said:


> Only logical reason I can see why you stay with this woman.


Ditto for me, and that's if -- and only if -- I were absolutely, completely, and totally 111.111% convinced that each and every single one of them were, in fact, my own biological offspring.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Racer said:


> Meh.. Ariel isn't wrong. That's part of R. At some point, you have to let go of that rage and feelings of vengeance and stop using the past as a hammer. It influences, but shouldn’t be leverage…
> 
> I’m just in that tweener stage. 5 years post DD. So I can argue both sides in my head. “Entitled to do this” is sort of there emotionally, but I’m not really ‘entitled’ to go on a date which it just might be; Can't deny there is mutual attraction, however there is also respect of where that line is for both of us. So it’s a choice. I want to, but don’t want to face ramifications. I’d love to cake eat and that temptation was there to ‘just not tell her’… but I know how that feels when you discover. So, I let the wife know about it rather than cover the tracks (which could have been done and can still be quite easily).
> 
> ...


Your wife should be jealous, she earned much more than she has received. You didn't divorce her. Only about 15% of men stay in a marriage when the wife cheats. That she now thinks you have the excuse to cheat , well, that's in the basket of goodies she gets to carry due to her own actions.

I would tell her straight up. Your friend was there for you when she was not. Not only did she not have your back, she was coldly sticking a knife in it.

Tell her you believe in commitment and loyalty, maybe she will understand those qualities someday. Tell her you didn't put yourself through the hell of reconcilliation so you could go bang your friends. Ask if she understands that.

Btw, this is a sh!t test.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Chaparral said:


> Your wife should be jealous, she earned much more than she has received. You didn't divorce her. Only about 15% of men stay in a marriage when the wife cheats. That she now thinks you have the excuse to cheat , well, that's in the basket of goodies she gets to carry due to her own actions.
> 
> I would tell her straight up. Your friend was there for you when she was not. Not only did she not have your back, she was coldly sticking a knife in it.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree:


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Racer said:


> Do I do something I know my wife will freak about?


Well if you are reconciling, or reconciled, after what she did, then I'd say no.

But I'd let her know that even though you will honor her wishes, its rather sh!tty of her to project her lousy characteristics of a POS cheater onto you.

And if she thinks she gets to call shots like that, then I hope there is an understanding that she doesn't get to go to anymore happy hours with colleagues, GNOs, or any kind of activity without you that is a more conducive environment for cheating, or acting single.

You are not like her. You are not void of decency and knowing how to honor a marriage. So don't be like her and honor her request, even though it really isn't her cheater place to make those calls without looking stupid.


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## happi_g_more2 (Jan 27, 2014)

man, your story sucks. I think either way, you are in the right. If you dont hang with this chick you are saying that you are committed to your wife and respecting the process of your R. If you do go hang out with your wife you are telling the both of you "hey, I'm not gonna suffer because you have a hard time NOT exploring other people genitalia. I love you and our marriage, but I have a normal, platonic non-threatening relationship that Id like to keep". 

Now, all that being said. I'm a huge opponent of opp sex friendships. Unless you hang as a couple 100% of the time, to me its not respectful or acceptable for a married person to hang alone with an opp sex friend. Just my opinion.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Her jealousy is a combination of projecting her own inability to be faithful and her deep fear of abandonment due to her childhood stuff.

I don't think you have anything to gain long term by staying home. That is, she isn't going to be nicer or less jealous or give you more sex because you don't go.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

ariel_angel77 said:


> *You're posting in CWI, so you're likely to get a lot of BS who think you should just walk all over your FWW like she's a used rag because of what she did. *I'll give you a different perspective.
> 
> First of all, *her affair does not give you a license to treat her like **** for the rest of your marriage.* Her feelings still matter. She's still a _person_, for crying out freaking loud.......


it's intersting because I am not a BS (nor WS), but I think that 
walking all over a WW - like she's a used rag - because of what she did........is exactly what a BH should do. He should hate her very guts for what she did. He should, at minimum, divorce her. If there are additional ways to display contempt for her he should avail himself. She humiliated him so if there are ways he can humiliate her, in return, I think he should seriously consider them. Betrayed wives should take the exact same attitude toward their WH.

as for the OP, if his wife was a serial cheater, then he has a hard time either trusting her or respecting her, I would imagine. Which makes marriage to her untenable, I think.
Racer - I think your dilemma is that you know there are better women, much better human beings out there than your wife. Sounds like your friend is one of them. But you chose to R with your wife so you are struggling with what to do. 
I think you should get together with your friend but at the same time pursue a fast track divorce from your wife. You should pursue the "thinker" and drop the "fun girl." Sounds to me like the fun girl is a creep, deep down.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I'm not sure how much of an R this is vs a survival until the kids move out.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Racer do you feel like you are in limbo in this marriage? If so don't lose the one person who had your back through it all. I wouldn't give up such a good friendship for a wife who could not remain faithful MULTIPLE times with MULTIPLE partners. You seem like a decent guy and this friendship is one of the few bright spots for you right now - don't give it up.


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

Racer said:


> Not really... She's never been keen on me going out. Kind of a control issue she has.
> 
> Regular friends, I tell her to basically get over it and do what she does for me to help; Check-in on facebook (location), party pics which also generate comments for those that were there. To pacify her fear that I'm hooking up with women. Oh, and another... I don't do much to dissuade that notion that I am more than capable of attracting the opposite sex.
> 
> But this one is 'tricky'. It is strictly a one on one with a attractive female where the subject matter discussed is a lot like here, including SIM type things. So it's much more than just drinks and bs. Deeper thoughts.... I'm guessing she's probably fishing for advice about marriage and how you know. She has no father figure, her mother is BPD, and her friends are 'wild child' (open relationships, gay, etc.). And as 'off' as I am and problematic on the relationship front, she's found my advice works in her relationships and self-growth....


 Oh yeah a real control issue here. IMO, if she starts handing your grief about this and keeps up with the controlling, maybe you should give her a gentle reminder that you could have bounced her ass out of the house for what she did if you wanted to but you chose to reconcile and you should let her know that if she doesn't back off with the control issues, she still may find her on the way out.


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

All the talk about his ww and considering divorce is valid, but I'm surprised so many people are okay with his going on a date with this girl against his wife's wishes, especially since he himself said he didn't know if he could resist her if the opportunity arose. No one here would encourage this behavior, especially given his admission of weakness, if the situation were different.

You're either in the R or you aren't. If you aren't, fine - you seem to have more than enough of a reason to call things off. Have your lady friend, get drunk, and talk sex and deep thoughts all night long. There's a difference between displaying your ability to bag another woman and throwing it in the face of your already paranoid/projecting wife. You talk as if you're going to stray now or in the future. You almost seem to want it to happen, and you seem to want your wife to know you want it to happen.

Your wife seems to have all kinds of problems and has brought those problems into your life, and that is more than enough of a reason to divorce if that's what you want, but you're trying to ride the fence here. You're cake-eating. And people here are encouraging it? I'm all on board if you want to lay down the law with your wife, or if you want to divorce, but either go all in with your R or get out altogether.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Cabsy said:


> All the talk about his ww and considering divorce is valid, but I'm surprised so many people are okay with his going on a date with this girl against his wife's wishes, especially since he himself said he didn't know if he could resist her if the opportunity arose. No one here would encourage this behavior, especially given his admission of weakness, if the situation were different.
> 
> You're either in the R or you aren't. If you aren't, fine - you seem to have more than enough of a reason to call things off. Have your lady friend, get drunk, and talk sex and deep thoughts all night long. There's a difference between displaying your ability to bag another woman and throwing it in the face of your already paranoid/projecting wife. You talk as if you're going to stray now or in the future. You almost seem to want it to happen, and you seem to want your wife to know you want it to happen.
> 
> Your wife seems to have all kinds of problems and has brought those problems into your life, and that is more than enough of a reason to divorce if that's what you want, but you're trying to ride the fence here. You're cake-eating. And people here are encouraging it? I'm all on board if you want to lay down the law with your wife, or if you want to divorce, but either go all in with your R or get out altogether.


There is compromise.
Meet at a public place.
Not at her place.


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## Jambri (Mar 19, 2013)

I would definitely go out with her. But then again, I would already have divorced the wife by now after she cheated


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## WalterWhite (Sep 14, 2012)

Racer, the only reason you want to see your ex-assistant is to maintain that link for potential sex. Man up and admit it. Men don't maintain such liaisons with attractive women unless they want to fook them.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

Your "wife" has broken so many rules, her trying to enforce *any* on you smacks of hypocrisy.

I would go.

No one knows your situation better than you, but from the outside looking in it looks more like self-flagellation than reconciliation.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Ripper said:


> Your "wife" has broken so many rules, her trying to enforce *any* on you smacks of hypocrisy.
> 
> I would go.
> 
> No one knows your situation better than you, but from the outside looking in it looks more like self-flagellation than reconciliation.


Yep she has issues her sister killed herself possible csa who knows.
Does that mean he has to file and be poor?
It's not his fault the laws are still in general so skewed.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

If you go then you should also file for divorce.

Honor your marriage.

Your wife cheated and you remain married. You opted for that. Nobody put a gun to your head.

You want the opportunity to bed your former colleague as much as you enjoy just talking to her.

What you want is over the line and you know it. In fact it seems like a passive way to accidentally have an exit affair because you are too chicken to pull the trigger.

Those encouraging you to go out with this woman are into revenge and are living vicariously through you and not at all to your benefit.

Be very careful who you let encourage you to do a very stupid and worse than that, a very wussy thing.

Passive aggressive crap like this reduces your standing. The dishonesty is a lot like what your wife did. With everything you know choosing this behavior makes you even more culpable,


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

tom67 said:


> Does that mean he has to file and be poor?
> It's not his fault the laws are still in general so skewed.


Touche.

Another family court hostage. 

Doesn't that push more towards seeing this other individual? If you are only staying because of the impending state sponsored sodomy, why worry about whats going on in the marriage?

If she is going to file, she will regardless. If he couldn't file at fault before, then the law in his area is so skewed in her favor any time she wants she can checkout and collect her cash and prizes.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Ripper said:


> Touche.
> 
> Another family court hostage.
> 
> ...


We both agree it sux.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Look Racer, I disagree with a few things you say, but generally I think you give good advice. All I'll say is, it's funny how we are blind to our own problems. You seem to be missing your own minimizing and the hypocrisy of your wife.


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

Racer said:


> So, I'm a hurt, sexually starved, feeling unwanted, and undesired, betrayed husband. And she knows this.


Racer, you're only living half a life. You are choosing to do this however, not your wife. 

You have to be all in or all out. 

If you're all in, then having D and M's with an opposite sex "friend" is not appropriate and your wife has every right to be upset about it.

If you're all out, then divorce your wife and go lead a sexually fulfilling, love filled life where you CAN be happy and feel wanted and desired again.

Which one is more important to you?

Are you going to live the rest of your life sex starved, unwanted and undesired? 

What a waste.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Look Racer, I disagree with a few things you say, but generally I think you give good advice. All I'll say is, it's funny how we are blind to our own problems. You seem to be missing your own minimizing and the hypocrisy of your wife.


:iagree:
He gives very good advice that's why I am:scratchhead::scratchhead:


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

An alternate POV

How normal is your marriage ? 

How much of your relationship is normal, how much of it do you manage ?

Is this a normal issue that can be dealt with in a fair way or is this something that has to be managed ? 



See where I am going with this ? Normal standard reaction is to avoid meeting the person she has the issue with even it is not a reasonable request. What she wants might not be fair or normal, but that is what you do as a spouse. Do things to make your other half happy. 

What would be the normal outcome be in your case ? Do you think she will respect you for respecting her concerns or do you think she will think of you as a weak pushover?


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## HobbesTheTiger (Apr 7, 2014)

You stated you're attracted to this friend, and that she's attracted to you, but that you keep your boundaries.

I think it's very inappropriate to hang out 1 on 1 with a person of the opposite sex when there's mutual physical attraction AND a deep emotional/intellectual connection, such as in your case. 

You're playing with fire, and even if you were single, I'd advise you to stop doing that, because she's in a relationship and it's unfair to her BF. Have you considered him? He might think it's inappropriate for her to be spending such 1 on 1 time with you? 

Also, I understand that you feel like you "have to be there for her" - don't fall into the KISA/Mr. Nice guy trap - your first obligation is to yourself&your moral principles, second to your wife&your marriage. Tell her that sadly it is inappropriate for you to maintain contact with her, give her some links to resources she can use for personal growth and relationship growth (including TAM), and cut ties with it.

All this is valid only if you're really invested in saving your marriage. If not, then...

And I've been cheated on, it's been horrible, so I'm not defending your wife's previous deplorable decisions and actions. However, if at this point you wish to have a healthy marriage (as healthy as it can be...), you have to act like you would in a healthy marriage, and that means no 1 on 1, communication with attractive women with whom you share an emotional and intellectual bond and mutual physical attraction. Even after I was cheated on, I tried my best to keep my personal boundaries very strict, so that I would feel like living up to my values and ideas of how I should act in a relationship, and to help her make her feel safe, just the way I expected from her.

Best wishes


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## Wolf9 (Apr 27, 2014)

Racer said:


> Also... this isolation thing is nothing new. Since we started dating, she's been insanely jealous of any woman getting near me. She's been crazy about me even going out with the guys.


It's catch 22 situation, she forced you to become man who used to avoid conflict & stay at home to please her by compromising his social life which turned out be man she was no longer attracted to & started having affairs for external validation. She used to & still holds major power in your dynamics.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Sounds like she is projecting her own bad behavior onto you. She really has no leg to stand on.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Racer said:


> Do I do something I know my wife will freak about?
> Thoughts?


Hell no!!!

Did not ead the rest but it does not matter. Either she is good enough to be your wife and you care what she feels or you do not. If yhere are things to work on then work on them or cut it loose. Doing something she will freak out about is not working on it. Are you ok with your wife going out with guy friends?


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

*Re: Re: Going out with an opposite gender friend..*



Entropy3000 said:


> Hell no!!!
> 
> Did not ead the rest but it does not matter. Either she is good enough to be your wife and you care what she feels or you do not. If yhere are things to work on then work on them or cut it loose. Doing something she will freak out about is not working on it. Are you ok with your wife going out with guy friends?


His WW had 6 APs.... i think it is debatable whether she is good enough to be his wife, regardless of her present status. (Sorry Racer, no disrespect)

If you read his story he had been okay with her going out with opposite sex friends, but her egregious breech of trust made him realize SHE cannot be trusted. That rule doesn't apply to everyone because someone else likes to project their demons.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Entropy3000 said:


> Are you ok with your wife going out with guy friends?


Once upon a time he was, to his detriment. Now, she is using her indiscretion, jealousy and accusation of this being his affair partner (justification for her affairs IMO) to say no. There were a thousand ways to say no, but she went right to the justification and accusation reasoning.

Thing is she KNOWS, through her own terrible experience, if he talks with this woman again she might lose him. The way it sounds, the R is going bad, he is in denial and she is not.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

When someone decides they want to have an affair they are going to have an affair.

There is still no excuse.

And there is zero reason to maintain this so called deep friendship. You know, except to torture your wife and to keep the opportunity for CHEATING WITH THIS WOMAN WHO KNOWS YOU ARE MARRIED AND HATES YOUR WIFE.

You aren't any prize yourself if this is what your have turned into.

And shoot, you kept this woman in your life before the drama so you haven't been all that honorable from the get go,


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Racer,

Your wife has a right to object to the date because you have an emotional connection to your former assistant.

The only reason you don't divorce is your children. You don't have a good sex life. You would be relieved to be free of your wife's unhappiness. 

The bottom line is that your wife doesn't give you love and affection.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Tabitha (Jun 17, 2014)

If you hope for your marital relationship to survive, YOU have to act like a married man who wants it. As long as you keep what she did in the forefront of your mind instead of behind you and moving on to “better” things with your thoughts about your marriage, it will have a hard time working out. Decide what you want and then go for it—and ACT like it.

This female friend of yours is not a friend of your marriage. You shouldn't ever discuss marital issues with an opposite sex friend who is NOT a friend of the marriage to begin with. If I were your wife, I’d be upset about your upcoming “date”, too! Your wife doesn’t want you to be discussing HER MARRIAGE with another woman who doesn’t like HER. That should be understandable. I can’t believe you think it’s a good idea. 

You’re staying married, right? Then what is in the best interest of the marriage? Do that. It sounds like you think your wife doesn’t deserve your good thoughts about her (yet), but the thing is—YOU do deserve those good thoughts if you plan on staying in the marriage. It’s having good thoughts that can lift you out of this relationship abyss. What kind of guy do you want to be? You can go through this relationship being a victim forever—or you can choose otherwise. Yeah, it sounds like she sh*t on you, but you’re the one keeping the sh*t piled there. 

Have phone conversations with the friend—at home with your wife around though, not in secret—and take personal, marital issues off the table forevermore. If you simply must see this friend—do so with the SOs around. I think that’s a fair compromise. Besides, with this woman entering a serious relationship now herself, you’re likely to lose her to her SO’s demands if you don’t place boundaries up asap. 

Develop some personal values and live up to them—for your sake, not anyone else’s. And remember, your kids are learning from you how to be a good human being. It takes a big man to truly forgive and move forward. They need to have at least one parent with some values about them. Lead by example and show your wife how you expect to be treated in return. Start now and move forward OR get out. You can get to a good spot in your marriage, but you have to act like it because YOUR actions are the only ones you’re really in control of.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Wow I read your previous threads and this one!

Jesus H Christ! I cannot understand why you are still married to her. I understand that she is damaged, but this is beyond damage - this is a lying serial cheater who happens to be the mother of your kids.

You asked earlier on why you should divorce her. Here's why: because she makes you miserable! All round! I know you seem to enjoy this "bittersweet" pain she brings you and you think you have a choice in matters - but this pain is not healthy. Eventually it will completely destroy you - no matter what games you think you can play here. The top two (ideal) values that we as humans aspire to are love and freedom. These trump happiness, honour, integrity etc etc. And you have neither here.

If you want to help her (with her "dysfunction") you need to help yourself first. And right now you definitely need help.

I cannot imagine what kind of R you are in but you do need to sort yourself out. Has she (a) been completely honest with you (polygraph maybe necessary) beyond the shadow of a doubt; and if so, (b) showed complete ownership and remorse for her wrongdoings (in action not just words) ? Without this, you cannot possibly heal and certainly cannot help her.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Pepper123 said:


> His WW had 6 APs.... i think it is debatable whether she is good enough to be his wife, regardless of her present status. (Sorry Racer, no disrespect)
> 
> If you read his story he had been okay with her going out with opposite sex friends, but her egregious breech of trust made him realize SHE cannot be trusted. That rule doesn't apply to everyone because someone else likes to project their demons.


I did not have to read his story. I totally get it. My point is that is she does not deserve to be his wife then he needs to let her go. But if he feels she is good enough to be his wife he needs to respect her wishes here.

So my real point is to let her go.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Let's separate the issues.

1. Your wife cheated years back and you guys are reconciling.
2. You have a female friend your wife doesn't want you to spend time alone with.

I'm sorry racer but her heavy lifting doesn't give you a free pass. How can anyone think it's justified to have an intimate bond with another woman who your wife doesn't approve of. If that's how it works then I don't think you've reconciled yet.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Exactly. He chose to R. Not many men would have in his situation, and few people probably agree with his decision (I certainly don't), but that's what he did. Therefore, the stuff his wife previously did is not a consideration as to whether he should be meeting with his ex-assistant -- especially since he and his ex-assistant have discussions about his wife and how that relationship is going. And he presumably likes that she hates his wife. That situation is a baby step away from an EA. And Racer might even enjoy that potential danger. My guess is he does. But it's not what someone in R should be doing and he knows it.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> When someone decides they want to have an affair they are going to have an affair.
> 
> There is still no excuse.
> 
> ...


I don't have reason or evidence to say this about the OP, but his wife is simply not marriage material...not fit to be ANYONE'S wife.
He should maintain his friendship with the woman but get rid of his wife ASAP. That way he can pursue a better woman without cheating or violating boundaries.......


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

So he has two choices that are honorable and neither involve this other woman.

Racer, what are you becoming? 

Don't go down with the ship.

Protect your good name and your honor.

if you decide to stay married then do it with the right attitude. Attempt to turn your life around 

and if you can't do that then then protect your children and your sense of self by divorcing in an honorable and honest and straightforward fashion. No one will blame you. Not even your children. I don't know how old they are but I can't tell you that the majority of children want their parents to be happy and not just together. someday they'll be old enough to understand all of the choices that had to have been made. But what they won't understand it's your father cheating on their mother or their father telling around with another woman and making their mother miserable. Because then you become the bad guy. and that they will see even if they understand the psychology. Your wife cheated on U and they will hate that but they will hate you even more for doing it back. because that means both of their parents are cheaters and both were cut from the same cloth and both decided to throw everything away. 

you're going to do the right thing aren't you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Look Racer, if you are still here. I don't buy the honor, slippery slope "she is your wife she deserves" 0r "the right thing" argument. No offense to anyone, but as I said in another thread we all have different moral codes. Most have similar intersections, but they aren't all the same. I think people can have opposite sex friends, but not everyone. Some people think it is an absolute no period.

You've been in limbo for five years. I've read many of your posts and your threads. You say she has done "heavy lifting," but you constantly imply she doesn't get it. You do understand, contrary to what you've read in a few different threads, it's okay to quit no matter how long ago the reconciliation started. Some things are so bad, you can never let them go. 

Yes, it's perfectly alright to be friends with someone of the opposite sex. Just not in this situation. To me it has little to do with honor, but not wanting to be a hypocrite. She had special friends and now you have one. You asked her to stop and she didn't. You have an inappropriate relationship, just like your wife, minus the sex act. She has voiced her displeasure, even if it is stupid and hypocritical, you become just like her if it continues. Payback is no way to live. I understand the need and want, boy do I, but it would be better to leave than wallow in this morass.

Unfortunately, your situation is why I could never stay for the kids.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Openminded said:


> Exactly. He chose to R. Not many men would have in his situation, and few people probably agree with his decision (I certainly don't), but that's what he did. Therefore, the stuff his wife previously did is not a consideration as to whether he should be meeting with his ex-assistant -- especially since he and his ex-assistant have discussions about his wife and how that relationship is going. And he presumably likes that she hates his wife. That situation is a baby step away from an EA. And Racer might even enjoy that potential danger. My guess is he does. But it's not what someone in R should be doing and he knows it.


Exactly! 
And he has these discussions about his wife because of what his wife did! 
And he is not over it! 
And the R that they had, was not really an R but more of a massive rug sweep. 
And that is why he needs to deal with that before he worries about going out with his female friend that his wife doesn't approve of, when he himself doesn't really approve of his wife.

Hence my comment. The issue here is not about him going out with an opposite gender friend but about him not feeling good about his wife in the first place. And there is the real problem. Else he wouldn't be going out talking about his wife.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Racer resents his wife for two reasons at least: she doesn't show enthusiasm for sex and she depends on him emotionally. She is a burden.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

LongWalk said:


> Racer resents his wife for two reasons at least: she doesn't show enthusiasm for sex and she depends on him emotionally. She is a burden.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_



Simple reason: she's not really into racer. 

I assume she has/had more sexual fun with her lovers, given that illicit relationships are always thrilling at the time.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

clipclop2 said:


> So he has two choices that are honorable and neither involve this other woman.
> 
> Racer, what are you becoming?
> 
> ...


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:
Can't say it any better than this so I'm QFT (quoting for truth).


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

aug said:


> Simple reason: she's not really into racer.
> 
> I assume she has/had more sexual fun with her lovers, given that illicit relationships are always thrilling at the time.


Not quite. She is really into me... just complicated sexually. 

So, like a part of it: She uses sex to 'hook'. Welcome to SA land... Sex has worth to others and she knows this. Just batting her eyelashes and a smile got free drinks. She uses it to get what she wants whether that's your continued friendship while you give up dating (she abhors cheaters...lol). She'll give you 'just enough' to keep you hooked. She's good at this. It's all about her own perceived control to get you to give her what she wants out of you. She wants a ton out of me.... so it flops around; When I detach, she throws it all at me. When I'm close, she withdraws to 'get more'. Never a balance point. 

If there's a thrill, it's seeing the hoops you'll jump through for her... the sex itself isn't important to her, it's what you'll do for it that matters. Sort of funny in a perverse sense looking at the various relationships and how hard and easily she led them around with just the hint it might, just might, become sexual. That's a lot of the EA's; The guys just didn't know how to push those ultimatums or boundaries. She wanted their attention; All they really had to do is walk away and she'd escalate to bring them back. The PA's were like that. She's a predator... 

And all this is part of the overall 'control' dysfunction she does. That's part of the rape and/or molestation she never dealt with using her own life experiences of how things work being sexually objectified (cheerleader sort). I just cope and deal. Survive...

So, I inform her of a BNO (boys night out). Same freaking battle and attitude, same control issue and a "No way!" The difference is I don't feel there's even anything to be concerned about or validity for why she feels threatened. So I go anyway and just deal with any ramifications. I no longer cave, so I will let the argument escalate to 'how do we tell the kids?'... And lol; She'll jump me and hyperbond again, and I'm sucked right back (it's my Achilles heel). 

Part of the weird one.. When we first dated, her best friend told me I was her one. How did she know? I was the first guy to ever tell her 'no', therefore the only one she could respect... Gave her a decade and she whittled me away from that guy one little step at a time to become the doormat. But he's emerging again, slowly and painfully.





And it's a mute discussion anyway... There's not a time in the next couple weeks that work between us. So, it will slip until that next impulse to catch up.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Racer said:


> Not quite. She is really into me... just complicated sexually.
> 
> So, like a part of it: She uses sex to 'hook'. Welcome to SA land... Sex has worth to others and she knows this. Just batting her eyelashes and a smile got free drinks. She uses it to get what she wants whether that's your continued friendship while you give up dating (she abhors cheaters...lol). She'll give you 'just enough' to keep you hooked. She's good at this. It's all about her own perceived control to get you to give her what she wants out of you. She wants a ton out of me.... so it flops around; When I detach, she throws it all at me. When I'm close, she withdraws to 'get more'. Never a balance point.
> 
> ...


Nope, it isn't because you always post something that adds insight. Her friend gave you a warning. I dated a girl like this one, she is my ex fiance. Unfortunately, fortunately as well, I had a kid with her. I'd gladly pay triple the child support, go broke, start from scratch and co-parent alll over again than deal with the crap you posted as my wife.

Why anyone, man or woman, would stay married to a piece of work like this, kids or finances, defies any logic I understand.



> Not quite. She is really into me... just complicated sexually.


Yes, if this works for you cool. I don't know you, but it still doesn't stop me from not believing this statement at all. Sex is about the only thing that isn't complicated with my wife. I sort of, again I don't know you, understand the rape/abuse angle more than you know. Still, it is a problem, but it is being used as a bat on you.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

You mean you won't deal with it now... Thus the opportunity is preserved.

You lose points for avoidance.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Racer,

Your wife attracts you. You love her flawed character like a man loves a particular temperamental car that cannot be driven in winter. Your wife is quirky sports car; you are a racer.

You are muddling along, understandably angry at her. 

File for divorce. See if she gives more of herself to dissuade you.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

I was cool with your analogy until you used quirky. Nothing his wife has done or what he just described is quirky. Temperamental is when you exercise lemon laws to get the problem addressed, they do a recall to replace the flawed part or you wash your hands of the problem. I'd say one and two have been done, for five years, he is on three.


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## sirdano (Dec 30, 2011)

Why can't you bring your wife with you?


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

racer, from what you described above, it looks to me that your wife is using sex as means of barter. If so, that kinda sad in a marriage. I am under the impression, within a marriage, sex is freely given and received.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

sirdano said:


> Why can't you bring your wife with you?


lol... The assistant knows so much more about my story than here. She had front row to all this destruction prior to and for 3 years post DD and helped patch me up; Something my wife didn't do. She doesn't really feel 'nice' about my wife.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

aug said:


> racer, from what you described above, it looks to me that your wife is using sex as means of barter. If so, that kinda sad in a marriage. I am under the impression, within a *HEALTHY *marriage, sex is freely given and received.


Fixed it for ya. 

Also an interesting sub discussion. If you subscribe to love languages, mine is physical touch, hers is acts of service. So to get 'loved' by her, she needs to feel 'loved'... so she requires acts of service. If I don't feel loved, I hardly feel like doing service stuff. It's almost setup like it must be an exchange and certainly doesn't help the dysfunctional cycle.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

LongWalk said:


> File for divorce. See if she gives more of herself to dissuade you.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


Ahh Long... you know me better than that. I'd never file a divorce in the hope of some outcome.

To be honest, when I was done, I was out, had it all lined up... that's also about the time she threw out trying the 130 days of sex challenge, started confessing, started giving me what I'd wanted for so long. And I went right back. Then she tapered all of it off over the next 2 years.

So, if I were to do that D thing just for a reaction, I'd go right back and hate myself for being so... well, me. I need to file and commit.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

The second part of my advice is to divorce her, even if you are getting love from her. Divorce her and sleep with her if it pleases you.

She willing to hurt you by maintaining her personal order on your marriage. But she lost this right by being a serial cheater.

If she must chase you for 10 years, so be it.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

A serial cheater?

D! 

The only problem with different love languages is when both don't want to pony up or there is score keeping.

unfortunately your marriage is out I don't think it's possible to to feel anything but ripped off. 

regardless, if you're going to stay and you're not going to agree on an open marriage then you really don't have much choice but to be an honorable man. I just think that it's an awful lot of soul sacrifice for not a lot of game. Now I'm not saying that your kids aren't worth sacrifice I'm just saying that your kids would rather have a happy dad who lives a long happy fulfilling life in one who is miserable just for them. it's also possible to lose points with children when Mom treats you poorly and you stay and take it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Racer said:


> Not quite. She is really into me... just complicated sexually.
> 
> So, like a part of it: She uses sex to 'hook'. Welcome to SA land... Sex has worth to others and she knows this. Just batting her eyelashes and a smile got free drinks. She uses it to get what she wants whether that's your continued friendship while you give up dating (she abhors cheaters...lol). She'll give you 'just enough' to keep you hooked. She's good at this. It's all about her own perceived control to get you to give her what she wants out of you. She wants a ton out of me.... so it flops around; When I detach, she throws it all at me. When I'm close, she withdraws to 'get more'. Never a balance point.


Racer racer racer. Spin that finger 180. You are exactly 1/2 of this co dynamic mess. I'm guessing you already know that though. You mention that she's driven by emotion and not logic but aren't admitting that you're driven by emotion as well. At least it's conditioned you. Hysterical bonding is the reward you get when things are good. It's your emotional scooby snack. Hey scooby snacks taste great when your starving.

The ex-assistance is a pawn in this dynamic but she doesn't know the rules you're playing by. You can use her to gain attention from your wife even if it's in the form of jealousy. If flirting and pushing boundaries with her doesn't get you back into hysterical bonding (scooby snack) with your wife then you may take the next step out of desperation. Yes EA/PA may get you that hysterical bonding you're looking for with your wife short term. But what about the ex-assistance who got caught up and manipulated in the process. Ehh if she lets it go there then maybe she deserves it but still, If you like her then don't drag her down with you and your wife's mind games.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Thundarr said:


> Racer racer racer. Spin that finger 180. You are exactly 1/2 of this co dynamic mess. I'm guessing you already know that though.


Yep.. The difference is I see it; So I use it either for good or ill depending on what works for me. I've been trying to find some balance point of detachment and/or boundaries. It's pretty bad that unless I want to live with duty sex, I've got to be the unsympathetic hard line guy with her. That's unpleasant for me. So I stay attached, but with clear boundaries I'll enforce and use playfulness. (Since False-R that is... the past is well... zero boundaries she couldn't blow right past with ramifications). 

So, there is a ton of intimacy and those moments, just not follow through later. And well some of those exchanges are intimacy. She'd say, "would you get some beer from the fridge?".. "For a kiss." She'll give me a small one. I'll respond "That's worth one of those nasty light wine coolers...", then she'll jump me, pin me and lay it on thick.. And I'll go fetch us some beer. We can be like that all day long and it won't result in sex. That's 'different' for her where that other dynamic comes into play.



> The ex-assistance is a pawn in this dynamic but she doesn't know the rules you're playing by. You can use her to gain attention from your wife even if it's in the form of jealousy.


Horrible pawn... we've gotten together once since I let her go 2 years ago. And that time I hid it from my wife. Didn't feel that was the right thing to do though. So here I am.

Oh, and the assistant knows the rules; Remember those deep talks? She absolutely knows what's up and how this all works with my wife. She's witnessed it in action, discussed it, and so on.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

clipclop2 said:


> regardless, if you're going to stay and you're not going to agree on an open marriage then you really don't have much choice but to be an honorable man. I just think that it's an awful lot of soul sacrifice for not a lot of game. Now I'm not saying that your kids aren't worth sacrifice I'm just saying that your kids would rather have a happy dad who lives a long happy fulfilling life in one who is miserable just for them. it's also possible to lose points with children when Mom treats you poorly and you stay and take it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That’s a whole different picture. I’m generally happy, smiling, etc. Satisfied with my sex life? Hell no. Is sex ‘the whole game’? No. The kids don’t see a miserable Dad. I’m the fun one they know pisses off Mom because I’m not doing chores 24/7. My kids actually sneak me computer games, beg mom to let me play with them, etc. Wife walking all over me? Wrong again. She does give me things, chores. She asks, I consider and typically do it. They see me do my own chores too; they know I’m the one who drives them around and who to go to when they have an issue (the youngest is attached to her though). They’ll also see me telling mom to take a break, come have fun, “I’ve got frozen marg’s over here and your swimsuit….”…

Now she has crossed that line several times. What the kids see is a whole variety of responses. The normal one is a polite smile. Taught the eldest this trick too because like his mom, he’s defensive and emotionally driven so she’d get to him; the village idiot. She’ll rant, and get no reward… Just smile at her like she’s an adorable puppy trying to be tough and I’m mentally challenged. Drives her nuts because it is not the response she wants; she wants us to jump or fight. Basically, I don’t reward approaches I don’t care for. Do this enough, and they stop doing what doesn’t work. So, the kids will witness mom trying to playfully seduce dad into some chore, or laying on the sugar thick. They’ll even see dad ask for this or chase her around because she’s grumpy and I insist she needs a hug (so the whole family might chase her too). The kids will also witness her and I thanking each other all the time for doing whatever we did. 

So does this sound ‘miserable’ to you? I work with what I got, damages and all, not hating life for what ‘should be’…


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

LongWalk said:


> Racer,
> 
> Your wife attracts you. You love her flawed character like a man loves a particular temperamental car that cannot be driven in winter. Your wife is quirky sports car; you are a racer.
> 
> ...


How dare you suggest that!!!


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Racer said:


> Ahh Long... you know me better than that. I'd never file a divorce.
> 
> To be honest, when I was done, I was out, had it all lined up... that's also about the time she threw out trying the 130 days of sex challenge, started confessing, started giving me what I'd wanted for so long. And I went right back. Then she tapered all of it off over the next 2 years.
> 
> So, if I were to do that D thing just for a reaction, I'd go right back and hate myself for being so... well, me. I need to file and commit.


See?


Both f them are crazy!!

:crazy:

:crazy:


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Skipped to the end, pardon me if I have this wrong, but is your wife projecting her own motivations and proclivities onto your friendship and insisting that in fairness you have to end that friendship just as she had to end her affairs? If so, you and I are living parallel lives.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

that is what is supposed to happen when you reconcile. 

she has to give up cheating and you can't start 
I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept for people. life isn't fair. Its a specially not fair when you reconcile with someone who cheated on you. 

and as much as you want to struggle with the rules it doesn't work. you just make yourself miserable or do try to level the playing field and then you turn into a sari slime just like your cheating spouse. 

this is part of the mental gymnastics that reconciliation does to a person. don't think is healthy in 95% of the situations out there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OpenEnded (Jul 30, 2012)

Hi Racer,

Have you made your mind?

I am on the opinion that no EA will come out of this meeting.
Reason? The assistant lady has been around for a years. If something had to happen it would have already happened. 

The question is: Do you need to talk that lady? I mean need - not want to, not feel like, not wish. And what can the act of simply talking one on one with her for hour or two bring to you ? 

I am in somewhat similar situation.


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## JerryB (Feb 13, 2014)

Racer said:


> That’s a whole different picture. I’m generally happy, smiling, etc. Satisfied with my sex life? Hell no. Is sex ‘the whole game’? No. The kids don’t see a miserable Dad. I’m the fun one they know pisses off Mom because I’m not doing chores 24/7. My kids actually sneak me computer games, beg mom to let me play with them, etc. Wife walking all over me? Wrong again. She does give me things, chores. She asks, I consider and typically do it. They see me do my own chores too; they know I’m the one who drives them around and who to go to when they have an issue (the youngest is attached to her though). They’ll also see me telling mom to take a break, come have fun, “I’ve got frozen marg’s over here and your swimsuit….”…
> 
> Now she has crossed that line several times. What the kids see is a whole variety of responses. The normal one is a polite smile. Taught the eldest this trick too because like his mom, he’s defensive and emotionally driven so she’d get to him; the village idiot. She’ll rant, and get no reward… Just smile at her like she’s an adorable puppy trying to be tough and I’m mentally challenged. Drives her nuts because it is not the response she wants; she wants us to jump or fight. Basically, I don’t reward approaches I don’t care for. Do this enough, and they stop doing what doesn’t work. So, the kids will witness mom trying to playfully seduce dad into some chore, or laying on the sugar thick. They’ll even see dad ask for this or chase her around because she’s grumpy and I insist she needs a hug (so the whole family might chase her too). The kids will also witness her and I thanking each other all the time for doing whatever we did.
> 
> So does this sound ‘miserable’ to you? I work with what I got, damages and all, not hating life for what ‘should be’…


Holy crap, that is messed up.

The only thing missing from this Game of Thrones episode is some beheadings.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

JerryB said:


> Holy crap, that is messed up.
> 
> The only thing missing from this Game of Thrones episode is some beheadings.


Well it did involve trading my balls (vasectomy) for a lifetime supply of racing tires


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

OpenEnded said:


> The question is: Do you need to talk that lady? I mean need - not want to, not feel like, not wish. And what can the act of simply talking one on one with her for hour or two bring to you ? .


Need... no. Want to... yes. It'd be nice to catch up. Her life is 'odd'. Her story is worse.... Essentially, she's the end product of a nice guy divorcing a BPD and fighting poorly for custody losing it all. The divorce crowd's worst nightmares come true. 

And no. Didn't affect my choice to R. Didn't know this stuff until she started opening up about all of it after my wife used the rape victim 'why'... she was molested, raped, moving in with anybody just to get away, etc. She also knows bi-sexual, open relationships, cheating, swingers clubs, alternative lifestyle, etc. Wild child. So, I've known her since she was 19... only 3 years after living on the streets doing what she had to as a runaway. And have watched her transform as she dealt with the card she was given too. Part of why we can have deep conversations. Sort of makes my story look lame.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

This



Racer said:


> lol... I am happy with her and who she is. She adds value to my life, the family, and so forth. She doesn't bring misery.


seems to be contradicted by this



Racer said:


> So, I'm a hurt, sexually starved, feeling unwanted, and undesired, betrayed husband. And she knows this.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Racer is full of contradictions.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Racer said:


> Need... no. Want to... yes. It'd be nice to catch up. Her life is 'odd'. Her story is worse.... Essentially, she's the end product of a nice guy divorcing a BPD and fighting poorly for custody losing it all. The divorce crowd's worst nightmares come true.
> 
> And no. Didn't affect my choice to R. Didn't know this stuff until she started opening up about all of it after my wife used the rape victim 'why'... she was molested, raped, moving in with anybody just to get away, etc. She also knows bi-sexual, open relationships, cheating, swingers clubs, alternative lifestyle, etc. Wild child. So, I've known her since she was 19... only 3 years after living on the streets doing what she had to as a runaway. And have watched her transform as she dealt with the card she was given too. Part of why we can have deep conversations. Sort of makes my story look lame.


Oh. That is a lot of history so young and so much for the two of you to work through and heal from. Keep on keepin on, Racer. My view on opposite sex friends has always been fine. Until this whole mess we have had when I had occasion to take another look. As I thought about it, it never really changed my view even as my wife has had many close friendships with other guys before and after we got together. Really, quite honestly, healthy, in my view. It seems that many of the members here feel that men and women in committed relationships should not have opposite sex friends. I thought about that some and I still don't feel that way. To me it seems like an antiquated and weird convention more likely to breed problems than healthy relationships. Emotional affairs, sex talk or innuendo, and crushes on friends I think are all toxic in a committed relationship, but we all know that here. I don't know what I am trying to say. You ought to be able to have this friendship and it's bs for your wife to try to turn the tables and accuse you of doing what she did.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Racer after 10 pages of posts I will say this - do what you feel is right. I don't understand your situation at home but I don't have to I'm not married to your wife. You seem in a moderately painful limbo - not really satisfied with life or your marriage. You live from good moment to good moment (not sure how rare the good moments are) but it seems there is really no thread of happiness running through your life. Do what you need to do for you - your wife seems pretty good at doing what she needs to do for herself. *JUST BE DECISIVE!!!!* Good luck, :banghead:


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Coffee Amore said:


> seems to be contradicted by this


Not really... compartmentalized. Also you should note my happy isn’t reliant on her… It’s reliant on my perception of my life; the whole thing of which she is still a part. 

The sex life is the big hangup and hooks in the adultery. I can't even play around in SIM without getting angry. And I know some women have felt I don't think kindly of their gender. This is all related and went on for decades including damages before her; Not one girlfriend different than my wife… sex = commodity to be earned and a high price (some of that though is me feeling that way). My female friendships and FWB relationships weren’t like that though; those are what you all seem to have in your marriages where it’s just a gift without strings and based purely on emotion. Angers me and triggers resentments and a pity party.. bad things in my head. 

So I focus on the rest of my life to find happy things.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Harken Banks said:


> Oh. That is a lot of history so young and so much for the two of you to work through and heal from. Keep on keepin on, Racer..


Told you it is a lot like here.... Talking about “Walking on Eggshells”, a few books on abusive relationships, how to say ‘no’, how we deal with life, survive, do our own mental gymnastics, perception swapping, etc. So imagine it’s a lot like if you and I got together to share war stories over a beer and chat back and forth about our lives, our lessons, etc. I might influence some of how you see things and visa-versa. And since we’d be talking about relationship stuff…. Sex stuff is going to come up. It isn’t induendo… It’s how she dealt with being raped. It’s how that stuff affected her perceptions about sex and sexuality. Hence the swinger clubs, bi-sexual experiences, and so forth. My wife turned to alcohol, and proving she was in control including testing that. That also somewhat helped her see how she was doing the same sorts of things to people and using her own sexual output as a power to get things. So ya… we helped each other understand much like these forums do too. Sometimes we’d even log on here with some great insight or another… She have one take on TAM; It’s a bunch of hurt people acting hurt by their spouses. Not a place for her; single. So she found some molest victim sites.

Now imagine she and I have been talking like that for years and years. Are there people here you like to chat with? You’ve had only 2 years and a limited medium to work with. So make those deeper conversations face to face and a few hours a week for probably 4 years while these deeper conversations happened. So yea… I’m curious how she’s progressed. She’d be 27? I was married by that age. She’s living with her boyfriend, which the last time we chatted, she was going to break up with because he was ‘nice’ and she’s got an ‘itch inside’ where that feels ‘wrong’ like she’s going to ruin his life because she knows she’s messed up…. So we joke that we’re both insane because I’m in that boat too. Always pursuing ‘the bad stuff’ and almost afraid of what others would say is a ‘good catch’…. 

Make more sense how that relationship is and why it is?


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Racer after 10 pages of posts I will say this - do what you feel is right.


That happened on page 4.... The rest is about my marriage and my totally irrational decision to stay. As well as clarifying the relationship with the assistant.... because it really isn't like a standard friendship, nor an EA. Hopefully above clarifies some of that.

Oh and edit. What’s “right” is seeing if I can have those kinds of conversations with my own wife. That would be my preference by far. But those things are behind that ‘too private’ glass wall. So, I will again try to break through… if she can’t, she can’t… Doesn’t stop me from thinking about it, hence a desire to talk about it.

That assistant doesn’t have that wall, so she can blow some of my thoughts & impressions out of the water using her own experiences.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Racer said:


> That happened on page 4.... The rest is about my marriage and my totally irrational decision to stay. As well as clarifying the relationship with the assistant.... because it really isn't like a standard friendship, nor an EA. Hopefully above clarifies some of that.
> 
> Oh and edit. What’s “right” is seeing if I can have those kinds of conversations with my own wife. That would be my preference by far. But those things are behind that ‘too private’ glass wall. So, I will again try to break through… if she can’t, she can’t… Doesn’t stop me from thinking about it, hence a desire to talk about it.
> 
> That assistant doesn’t have that wall, so she can blow some of my thoughts & impressions out of the water using her own experiences.


Sounds like you have a level of respect for your assistant that you don't for your wife


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Racer said:


> Not really... compartmentalized. Also you should note my happy isn’t reliant on her… It’s reliant on my perception of my life; the whole thing of which she is still a part.


Until you can be happy without a partner you'll never maintain happiness with one. That's just a simple truth of self confidence. It sucks because you're not giving yourself enough credit. Don't bother saying you would be happy without a partner. You, me, and everyone else knows that's what you're afraid of and it's why you live in the dysfunction.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Sounds like you have a level of respect for your assistant that you don't for your wife


In dealing with issues and self-growth... Hell f'n yes!

My wife buries her head in the sand hoping time will make them disappear... ok, she does do some change, but the deep stuff goes unresolved like it's just going to work out on its own. And even that is pulling teeth... she'd prefer to bury it and avoid. I sort of poke at it so those rotten bodies stink up the joint from time to time. Nope... not fixed honey..

The assistant reads books, joins forums, learns and grows. She self-improves. She seeks out counseling when she needs it. Talks to others, wants to be better. She doesn't believe others can make her whole and looks to herself to do all the work.

Who would you respect more?


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Thundarr said:


> Don't bother saying you would be happy without a partner. You, me, and everyone else knows that's what you're afraid of and it's why you live in the dysfunction.


I think that is partially true. I envision myself as 'lost' without this life. Not good at making new friends (see below). I know divorced folks go through some of that.. (I do lurk that sub-forum). 

Sad part is I know I am capable of attracting others male and female… I’m not ‘uninteresting’. I have a hard time bonding now though. Might be part of 'my 20 year captivity' where having my own friends, like this thread, is a battle every single time. Always has been. Every friendship has been ‘disposable’ because my wife makes it severely hard to maintain a friendship. I’ve wondered how Pavlov dog, I’ve become; I forget a name the minute I’m told it. So even without her around, would I continue to isolate myself out of habit?

I fear I might be that guy, playing computer, learning guitar, picking up a foreign language, reading books, painting, building cars, and absolutely isolating myself…. 

It isn’t a strong fear. I’ve actually jumped out of that comfort zone and started meeting new people, striking up conversations, various groups I’d be interested in and attending a function or two. I could do it. But even with those experiments, it’s just not something more than idle chit chat for a small bit of time. Never had the urge to carry it towards a friendship or seeing them again… edit; but also picked up that I pick 'safe' people like a couple, some random mother, an older guy or a younger one just sitting there alone too. Never someone my own age or might be available.

So I don’t know if that plays a role or not.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Racer said:


> Told you it is a lot like here.... Talking about “Walking on Eggshells”, a few books on abusive relationships, how to say ‘no’, how we deal with life, survive, do our own mental gymnastics, perception swapping, etc. So imagine it’s a lot like if you and I got together to share war stories over a beer and chat back and forth about our lives, our lessons, etc.


Yep. You should be able to have this friendship. Should. But I could also see giving it up for the peace at home even if that hurt your friend some as well as you. In my idealized version of me and the world I would just do what I wanted and thought was right. Sh*t gets nuanced and stuff.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Racer said:


> I think that is partially true. I envision myself as 'lost' without this life. Not good at making new friends (see below). I know divorced folks go through some of that.. (I do lurk that sub-forum).
> 
> Sad part is I know I am capable of attracting others male and female… I’m not ‘uninteresting’. I have a hard time bonding now though. Might be part of 'my 20 year captivity' where having my own friends, like this thread, is a battle every single time. Always has been. Every friendship has been ‘disposable’ because my wife makes it severely hard to maintain a friendship. I’ve wondered how Pavlov dog, I’ve become; I forget a name the minute I’m told it. So even without her around, would I continue to isolate myself out of habit?
> 
> ...


Racer you don't have a defensive bone in your body. It's disarming and likable as well. My few comments here have been sincere but they are also the type of comments that often get a 'how dare you' retort. You don't seem to mind being nailed to the cross. No matter, you're likable to those interacting with you. Good luck


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Does she love you?
Does she desire you?
When you are too old for sex, how will she treat you?
Should you suffer a stroke, do you believe she would work hard to rehabilitate you?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Merton Densher (Apr 23, 2013)

Racer
Wow
Sounds like the assistant so a soulmate.
Your wife has not been and perhaps may never be.
Say in your marriage only if you can be 100% committed. 
Otherwise run. As fast as you can. The kids will understand. 

I admire your ability to self assess your feelings 

Warm Regards


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

LongWalk said:


> Does she love you?
> Does she desire you?
> When you are too old for sex, how will she treat you?
> Should you suffer a stroke, do you believe she would work hard to rehabilitate you?
> ...


I say 'yes' to them all, particularly the stroke one. 

The desire one is tricky though....She might be expressing it: It just isn't my 'native tongue' so it doesn't register as expressing desire. Is a back rub without strings desire? How about spooning in bed? Reaching out for my hand?

My 'native tongue' is more the old birds and bees; When a man loves a woman, he takes his ____ and puts it in her ____. 

When I'm too old for sex... she'd treat me the same and not feel that pressure. It would screw up the dynamic. How's she going to motivate crotchety old Racer to do stuff?


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Merton Densher said:


> Racer
> Wow
> Sounds like the assistant so a soulmate.


Oh hell no. She'd drive me nutters. Type of thing where she's stuck on her old abusive boyfriend and allows his 'fishing' to get a reaction and response.. She can't stay NC; Even became best friends with her replacement who dumped him for cheating.

She's also 'wild', like Burning Man kind of wild and inviting other women into the bed with her and her boyfriend, public sex, etc... No thanks. Some it might be 'fantasy' but I know me... the whole thing would not be 'ok' in any committed sort of relationship. Just couldn't deal with that 'its just sex' stuff. Funny is that her boyfriend was last involved in a seriously religious based relationship; Almost cultish with promise rings and all. So, he's being 'corrupted' by her and his parents love her for it because he was so uptight... I hope he survives. I couldn't.



> Your wife has not been and perhaps may never be.


Can't say that at all. We do finish each other's sentences, share the same totally wrong and warped humor. Have a secret language others can't read like shared thoughts. And it's always been like that. Seriously, when dating at some engagement party there was a question like name two people your boyfriend would sleep with; She nailed it with Wonder Woman and Farrah Faucet. 

And well... there was a turning point. Everything from that forward changed. It wasn't DD or the false-R. It's in my story... So that 'soulmates' thing might be a WAS.



> Say in your marriage only if you can be 100% committed.
> Otherwise run. As fast as you can. The kids will understand.


And I can't 100% commit. Not any more; too much burned. So it's survival and making the best out of what cards are left to work with. The door stays cracked, I maintain an exit plan.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Thundarr said:


> Racer you don't have a defensive bone in your body. It's disarming and likable as well. My few comments here have been sincere but they are also the type of comments that often get a 'how dare you' retort. You don't seem to mind being nailed to the cross. No matter, you're likable to those interacting with you. Good luck


Sorry it comes across as 'how dare you'.... Years and years of arguing all this same stuff in my head. I can counterpoint every single thought I have about her. Sucks when you can morally/ethically justify: Divorcing her, Staying with her, Cheating on her, Requesting an open marriage, Disposing the body, Just disappearing, and so forth.... So many options with each path leading somewhere new.

So I just breathe in, breathe out, hum a little diddy, and keep taking steps that feel like they might lead where my gut/intuition tells me I should go. Doesn't mean it's 'the right way'... but it is a direction. Better than just hiding in a hole pretending this isn't my life.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Ugh, and that defensive bone in my body is getting to me. I’d prefer to say I’m non-threatening and don’t defend hard often counterpointing myself. That shouldn’t be confused with an inability to attack. 

It’s also why the Dresden bombing on my marriage was successful. It is not in my character; which is laid-back as hell. Ripped and tore the soft flesh of her insecurities and doubts about herself. And enjoyed it; That still bugs her the most. 

It’s a gift of high empathy and being able to see thing from their point of view. What can be used to help build confidence by overcoming these insecurities, can also be used to shatter you. She opened pandora’s box where ‘ill intent’ was just as valid of a choice. I had over a decade of experiences, talks and dreams to know exactly where she questioned herself and was shaky. So I didn’t attack her strong points she baited toward and had plenty of defense, excuses, justifications… I used that backdoor of “a husband, or anyone that loves me, wouldn’t go there” where she was weakest. She was too freaking reliant on a magic ring, and the kind of guy I was to solidify her own insecurities and issues. I work with what I got. Good/bad, right/wrong… just perceptions: “More guidelines than rules really…” 

So I wouldn’t necessarily see me as some sort of puppydog just because I can see both sides.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Maybe you see both sides as a way of avoiding taking action. Maybe it is your get out of taking control of your life card.

The girl is dramatic and troubled, not deep. She started opening up as an invite to an EA. Her personality is a problem.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Reminds what Joker tells Batman..


She wouldn't leave you out of some kind of f*cked up love for you..

You wouldn't divorce because analyzing her motivations is just too much fun..


She is still your safe spot. You know she might cheat again on you but she will never leave you. maybe that is why you persist with her. You have some kind of minimum guarantee with her.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Well, it got 'unsafe'... Round one started. She attacked this morning on this assistant issue. Apparently I fantasize about her, want to screw her, etc. And apparently by telling her (the wife), I'm manipulative, had 'malicious intent', and so forth. 

She also analyzed the conversation with the assistant. Apparently her posting "I miss you guys..." Is loaded with deep feelings toward me that are probably sexual. That I responded with letting her know how empty it is and who's no longer around was also "weird" since my wife doesn't know who these people are or why I'd say something like that. 

Oh and funny, she claimed I started it on the assistant's fb page and several people have called her wondering who that girl is. Checked the phone logs... Only her uncle and she all the calling.

So much fabrication in her head.... not one conversation with me (all of it was a note left for me this morning and emails to my WTF? response), but so far today an hour on the phone with her Uncle.

btw, also ripping into her because of the approach. Not how I want to start dialog, but know it's how this works with her.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Read this whole thread and it's very interesting. I put myself in your shoes. It's a tough one.

But honestly, I think you know you have to do one of two things here:

1) Decide your marriage is dead and operate that way.
2) Cut off this friendship

You can't keep the friend and maintain your marriage the way it is now. Clearly.

I will also say I believe it was a mistake to involve a female in your marital problems. When I went through this, I confided in guy friends only. Going oppo really complicates things.

Doesn't help that this woman is attractive, and sexually wild. Hell, I'm not even open to an affair and I'm turned on. Can't imagine how you must feel...


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Racer,

Your wife and mine may not be exactly alike, but where you and I are in our R are uncannily similar. I would expound on it but I don't have your ability to express my thoughts into writing.

All I can say is that for now, I think it's fine to have just an okay R. That might be all we're capable of. Especially if it beats how the marriage used to be or how you would envision your life to be post divorce. It also helps knowing we can always walk away without guilt.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Racer said:


> Well, it got 'unsafe'... Round one started. She attacked this morning on this assistant issue. Apparently I fantasize about her, want to screw her, etc. And apparently by telling her (the wife), I'm manipulative, had 'malicious intent', and so forth.
> 
> She also analyzed the conversation with the assistant. Apparently her posting "I miss you guys..." Is loaded with deep feelings toward me that are probably sexual. That I responded with letting her know how empty it is and who's no longer around was also "weird" since my wife doesn't know who these people are or why I'd say something like that.
> 
> ...



you should ask her why she thinks you would sleep with her ? Does she see any good reasons why you would ?

The hypocrisy in the whole situation astounds me!!


She never changed. Just how she approached changed.


Racer, just swap the genders and re-examine this scenario.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Several salvo's this morning of the FU sort... She brought up how I'm using her for money too... (my business has struggled for over a year so I'm hardly bring home anything after a couple decades of a six digit income)

Last one I sent I decided to bring it full circle: And yes, I talk too f'n much......... just needed to spew it out.

You probably ought to look closer at your “on purpose and with malicious intent”. It’s not based on any conversation you’ve had with me. You fabricated in your own head. You don’t see that as a problem or reading between the lines basing everything on pure speculation?

So being upset by it is fine. I knew you would be, it’s just you being you. But you should also understand, THAT IS WHY I BROUGHT IT UP WITH YOU. You should know. I gave you a voice. I did not lie, did not omit, did not avoid your wrath. I knew it wouldn’t ‘go well’ and was nervous even bringing it up. All the more reason I needed to let you know and give you a chance to talk about it. BUT YOU WON’T HAVE THAT RATIONAL DISCUSSION. True “Malicious intent” would have been easier by far; just call her from the office, set up a time, meet, laugh and never tell you a thing WHEN I KNOW YOU’D WANT TO KNOW. Probably even tell her how to contact me so you can’t discover… (sound familiar?) Your reaction each and every time makes it so easy to get over that guilt of omitting it from you knowing. I’m strong too and know nothing will happen..lol. I know better, hence another really good reason to tell you so you help me ‘be good’ and accountable. 

See how I handle this stuff different than your normal? I think you don’t tell me because you don’t feel guilty using thoughts about how I (really just the monster you fabricated in your head) would react…. Instead of giving me a chance to react and just dealing with it or surprising you; you know, the real me… So you are right in that I knew it would piss you off and told you anyway. The other option was not telling you, allowing you to be content and happy, and relying completely on myself to ‘be good’. I learned some lessons from you too about how that isn’t exactly a ‘good plan’. So, getting away with it once. Wanting to do it again. Making it regular.. All while keeping you in the dark is a good way to start a relationship with someone else. But by telling you, you can start spotting that attachment, start warning me, and have a voice and choice on how to react. One or two happy hours a year is not going to be any sort of relationship. So by keeping you informed, that helps me ‘be good’.

I respect you and love you enough that I start a dialog and tell you. I don’t ‘have to’; I ‘choose to’. I’m supposed to be the one you feel safe with and can just be who you are. But you hide, cower, and keep it all locked inside. (Gay Uncle) is closer to you on this than I am. And that does piss me off; I notice. You’ll talk about life with him, deeper thoughts, reflections, etc. You bounce ideas, talk and share. You don’t with me, unless I pick a fight. I hate that dynamic where I have to piss you off just to get a conversation that isn’t ‘how is your day’ or joking about your monthly … While that’s all fine and good, I actually want to know the real you and visa-versa. If that happened, there’d be no use for (assistants)… I could have those conversations with you, share those thoughts, bounce ideas, etc. You are limiting our relationship by being so damn adversarial like you are under attack if I try to broach any of these ‘not so shallow or joking’ conversations about life and people. We really could grow quite close, I know this, I’ve always known it…. You just have to stop treating me like I’m your enemy and out to get you….​


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Racer,

I have read this thread on and off for the past couple of days. I honestly don't know whether I feel like laughing or shedding a tear for you.

It scares me that you would be dealing with this for so long, and at such a deep depth. It almost seems like we are watching you self-destruct over your WW.

You show intelligence, yet you seem to be fighting a battle when the war is already over.

Separate? File for a D?

Heaven knows you can do better. You can do better alone, or with someone more stable.

I know it is your choice. Your timetable. Your consequences. Your life.

It just seems like you are the poster child for a person that should have chosen D instead of continuing in R.

I feel deeply hurt for you. Nobody should EVER go though the hell that you are enduring. Why? Why are you there?


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Hence why I always joke that I'm insane. Somehow, that just always feels like it is the 'right' and only possible answer that fits and explains everything.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Racer said:


> Hence why I always joke that I'm insane. Somehow, that just always feels like it is the 'right' and only possible answer that fits and explains everything.


I need to head out for the day.

Maybe you need to spend more time finding yourself. Time to reflect, laugh with friends, or lost in something interesting. The 180 is kicked about, but I think the ideas would benefit you.

Detach. Stop trying to negotiate with her. Do your thing.

What is she doing to keep you? For goodness sake, is any of it worth the suffering?

Sorry Bro. I hope we can help you. You are too good and decent to waste your time with a person of her caliber.

I said it. You can start fresh and live a new life. I did it. YOU can do it too.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Racer, I really don't think you are being a very nice of good person. You admitted an attraction of sorts to the OW and it bugs your wife for a valid reason,


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think you might both be happier if you would divorce, Racer.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Lovemytruck said:


> What is she doing to keep you? For goodness sake, is any of it worth the suffering?.


That's what bugs me about this. So we leave on vacation Friday. As normal, I hate vacation because all my clients go into panic mode and want their stuff before I go. So I've been putting in long hours every night. This means I'm not there to help with the house, get it cleaned for the housesitter, and do the normal swapping of cooking, cleaning, folding laundry, etc. I do feel bad, wife has had to take all that on herself. Been like that for a week.

And she hasn't complained about it once. She's been very supportive, very understanding, sweet and the whole thing. Going out of her way to do nice stuff. Even offering to bring me a bottle. We've even been flirting back and forth while I'm here at work.

Then this happens this morning... Sort of how it is; Everything is great for most of the time; Then BOOM! She'll attack on a hundred fronts and dish out a whole massive list of complaints in a very confrontational over the top sort of way. Once a month maybe? Just depends on her stress level and where her head is at...


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Oh, and somethings have changed over the last couple years. I've really got about a 50/50 chance of the first words out of her mouth tonight being an apology for losing it, then a conversation about all her pent up frustration.

In the past, no way in hell would she apologize or even recognize when she goes off the rails. It's why I say she's not BPD; She is capable of seeing herself.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Racer said:


> Oh, and somethings have changed over the last couple years. I've really got about a 50/50 chance of the first words out of her mouth tonight being an apology for losing it, then a conversation about all her pent up frustration.
> 
> In the past, no way in hell would she apologize or even recognize when she goes off the rails. It's why I say she's not BPD; She is capable of seeing herself.


Yeah, I can do that too. Doesn't mean/prove anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Racer said:


> Oh, and somethings have changed over the last couple years. I've really got about a 50/50 chance of the first words out of her mouth tonight being an apology for losing it, then a conversation about all her pent up frustration.
> 
> In the past, no way in hell would she apologize or even recognize when she goes off the rails. It's why I say she's not BPD; She is capable of seeing herself.


Racer
Like what Will Kane used to say...
You cannot control her but you can control what you will put up with.
Just going back to the basics.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Are you still packing twinkies and twix bars? Maybe that was someone else, but I thought I remembered it as you. If it was, that was some funny stuff. Someone came down hard on it, but I thought it was funny.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Harken Banks said:


> Are you still packing twinkies and twix bars? Maybe that was someone else, but I thought I remembered it as you. If it was, that was some funny stuff. Someone came down hard on it, but I thought it was funny.


You talking about my fattening her up? lol... ya that was me buying Ding Dongs and fruit and noting that the Ding Dongs were being binge eaten by her and sort of giggling when her clothes no longer fit.... 

edit... looked up that old thread for giggles
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/10554-anyone-else-do-cruel-things-their-ws.html

And I'm off on vacation for a week tomorrow... Should be interesting. She did decide to argue last night. Ripped through her, let her know what's going on with me. It did end in discussion. But as always with me thinking "what's the point, you won't change."... So she's doing her usual tossing sex at it and being all sweet. So far I've rejected; Hard to 'want' her when I'm angry that I have to have a fight to have a conversation... Argh!

Assistant thing wasn't resolved.... but much 'airing of grievances' on both sides without action plan to work on any of it. I'm thinking f it and just get it scheduled when I return.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I can't feel sorry for Racer. This is all his choice.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

clipclop2 said:


> I can't feel sorry for Racer. This is all his choice.


Oh geez... I'm not looking for a "oh you poor dear..." I actually kind of dislike that because you are exactly right: I'm making these choices intentionally. (and not making them to impress the peanut gallery)


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Racer said:


> You talking about my fattening her up? lol... ya that was me buying Ding Dongs and fruit and noting that the Ding Dongs were being binge eaten by her and sort of giggling when her clothes no longer fit....
> 
> edit... looked up that old thread for giggles
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/10554-anyone-else-do-cruel-things-their-ws.html


Thanks for a good laugh on a Friday! LOL!


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Harken Banks said:


> Are you still packing twinkies and twix bars? Maybe that was someone else, but I thought I remembered it as you. If it was, that was some funny stuff. Someone came down hard on it, but I thought it was funny.


I just read that old thread heck all but one poster came down hard on him. it made me angry the way they defended the WW for bad choices to eat the food...
It wasn't like he was holding his WW down forcing the Ding dongs or Ho Ho's down her throat.

It was her choice to eat that.

There is much more cruel but legal things a BS can do to WW then buy some unhealthy food


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> I can't feel sorry for Racer. This is all his choice.


Racer is codependent in my opinion. He makes lots of excuses to stay in a not-great situation. His could be a lifetime sentence of more of the same. I can't feel sorry either.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

convert said:


> I just read that old thread heck all but one poster came down hard on him. it made me angry the way they defended the WW for bad choices to eat the food...
> It wasn't like he was holding his WW down forcing the Ding dongs or Ho Ho's down her throat.


It is kind of amazing how much the attitude has shifted here in 4 years. Back then, it was touchy feely and I got reamed. By current standards, it wouldn't be enough and I'd be called out for the passive/aggressive wimpy 'revenge'...


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Openminded said:


> Racer is codependent in my opinion. He makes lots of excuses to stay in a not-great situation. His could be a lifetime sentence of more of the same. I can't feel sorry either.


Not invalid about the co-dependent thing. I was severely co-dependent when DD#1 hit. Seriously, I 'waited' for her to tell me what I should be doing. Then went to the opposite extreme after the false-R; FU I'll do what I want!

Sort of how this all comes up anyway. At some point you have to re-engage into the marriage and allow your spouse a voice in what you do (since it affects her). Having been extremely co-dependent, it is hard to judge how deep I should wade in those waters knowing the results of getting in too deep AND knowing I can't be completely independent within a relationship expecting that to work either. There's a balance point in there I've never had, so it's hard to find where that is.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Racer said:


> Not invalid about the co-dependent thing. I was severely co-dependent when DD#1 hit. Seriously, I 'waited' for her to tell me what I should be doing. Then went to the opposite extreme after the false-R; FU I'll do what I want!
> 
> Sort of how this all comes up anyway. At some point you have to re-engage into the marriage and allow your spouse a voice in what you do (since it affects her). Having been extremely co-dependent, it is hard to judge how deep I should wade in those waters knowing the results of getting in too deep AND knowing I can't be completely independent within a relationship expecting that to work either. There's a balance point in there I've never had, so it's hard to find where that is.


What makes this thread so interesting is the insight into your reconciliation. It is weird watching someone defend, eviscerate and excuse their spouse, while they are vacillating between reconciliation or divorce. I am talking about the contradictory nature of your posts, not that is is fun. I hate your pain, but I know now I couldn't do reconciliation with sex involved.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Hope you have a good vacation.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> What makes this thread so interesting is the insight into your reconciliation. It is weird watching someone defend, eviscerate and excuse their spouse, while they are vacillating between reconciliation or divorce. I am talking about the contradictory nature of your posts, not that is is fun. I hate your pain, but I know now I couldn't do reconciliation with sex involved.


Yes, it's an unusual dynamic. I have seen a couple of others here do that as well but probably not to the extent that Racer does.

ETA: And I think a tolerance for drama is needed.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

Reading the OP's posts makes me feel like I'm watching someone aimlessly roaming the halls of a self made prison.

He knows where the key is hidden, but he's been there so long that a view through the bars seems too safe and familiar to risk venturing beyond the walls.

Btw, I think that you didn't meet your "support" friend not so much because of how mad it would have made your FWW. But more so for how you think she might get you back for it. You know it's true.

The boxer may have hung up the gloves, but will always long to be back in the ring for another bought.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Btw, I think that you didn't meet your "support" friend not so much because of how mad it would have made your FWW. But more so for how you think she might get you back for it. You know it's true.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

Men and women can't be friends.. 

I won't bother supporting this statement.. 

I will not let or accept my G.F. having guy friends so she rightfully cannot allow me either.. I wouldn't do it either because of how I feel about opposite sex friends.. 

When opposite sex's get together someone out of those 2 persons has feeling some way shape or form for the other.. 

My guess is you have feeling for her deep down even if you don't see it or want to accept it.

Am I saying you want to fvck her ? No ( not yet )... But you like being around a good looking woman..

Current G.F. had a "male friend" that she knew throughout her marriage and during her separation.. He told her he loved going out with her as friends because of all the attention they would get from other people because of her.. 

But as you can imagine he finally broke his friendship with her because he thought that this time around they could have a chance together.. He felt he waited 20 years for her that she should give him a shot.. End result they are no longer friends and speak to each other..

Decide whats more important.. Marriage or this woman.. I don't care that your wife cheated on you. 

If your doing R then eventually need to stop blaming and just fix..

Sorry I am just cutting to the points here.. We are all grown ups and know all the fluff in the middle that I am not bringing out..


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Hardtohandle said:


> My guess is you have feeling for her deep down even if you don't see it or want to accept it.


You don't have to guess, he gave everyone the answer much earlier in the thread.



> *Can't deny there is mutual attraction*, however there is also respect of where that line is for both of us. --snip--
> 
> *If this girl threw herself at me, I really don’t know how I would react.*


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You don't have to guess, he gave everyone the answer much earlier in the thread.


LOL 

WTF.. 

Racer.. You just can't do this sh1t.. 

What the fvck is the whole point of all this stuff your going through.. Your basically doing a form of cake eating yourself.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

In some ways you are in a way better place now. Here is one of your old posts:



> I didn’t end up divorcing, but had that talk with a suicidal wife about 6 months into the R. Quite frankly, by that time I just no longer cared all that much about her. I forgave myself if she decided to end her own life; Just another bad choice in my mind that I was unwilling to blame myself for. She made her own choices.
> 
> The kids? I would just deal with the kids when/if it happened. Let go of outcomes and just face stuff when it happens. Stop anticipating and plotting. The only “plotting” I did was keeping track of my alibi and records like her suicide note drafts. She’d been telling friends/family I was going to kill her and even threatened to frame me. (Yes, she was that nasty)
> 
> ...


You have managed to hold your family together and give your wife enough stability to get her on track. 

Maybe on this vacation you will get more affection from her.

Perhaps your wife has to be jealous to get more interested in chasing you.


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