# And women wonder why younger men aren't interested in marriage



## Stack (Mar 14, 2016)

My Light Went Out | The Huffington Post

Carly Israel says he was a kind man and an excellent father. Despite knowing it would destroy him and their three boys, she decided to "choose me" and divorce this good man. She list 10 gifts from a messy divorce which include: You get to really, truly know your ex; You get closer to God...

She is a huge fan of Strayed and closes her piece with a quote from her "very favorite author":

Go, even though you love him.
Go, even though he is kind and faithful and dear to you.
Go, even though he’s your best friend and you’re his.
Go, even though you can’t imagine your life without him.
Go, even though he adores you and your leaving will devastate him.
Go, even though your friends will be disappointed or surprised or pissed off or all three.
Go, even though you once said you would stay.
Go, even though you’re afraid of being alone.
Go, even though you’re sure no one will ever love you as well as he does.
Go, even though there is nowhere to go.
Go, even though you don’t know exactly why you can’t stay.
Go, because you want to. Because wanting to leave is enough.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

How can it be perfect if you feel alone while in bed together? They did this to eachother by not choosing eachother first.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

No one knows the inner workings of anyone's relationship/marriage. On the outside, many couples appear happy. They have nice houses, good jobs, great kids, but inside the house, they are lonely, separate, bored, sexless, etc. I don't know if she was 'right' to leave, I'd like to think that whatever was bothering her might bother her still in another marriage, because all relationships require work, to sustain them. Especially with kids, it seems sad to end the marriage, but then again...we didn't live with these two. So, it's hard to say if ending the marriage was justified. It's always easy to judge when you're not in it.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

The solipsism in the quoted excerpt is dazzling.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

And women wonder why younger men aren't interested in marriage 

LOL... one woman does something and apparently it means all women are not good?

Maybe we could also find stories about men who mistreat their wives ... after all that happens too.


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## EunuchMonk (Jan 3, 2016)

Stack said:


> My Light Went Out | The Huffington Post



If the article is to be believed it sounds like his fault.



> He was a kind man and a good father. How I hungered for connection and wanting. *Quiet clenching jaws and pleading ignored*.



But it's only one side of the story so speculation is pointless in my opinion.

Hope you're not one of those red-pill guys. I find them to be so schizophrenic. They complain about how bad women are but they still can't stop talking about them. It's like a weird worshipping/demonising dynamic that's sad. I mean just go about your business and don't worry about it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ele,

I read the article. My take on it is this:
- She used her REAL NAME, thereby making her H identifiable 
- In making that single choice, she was inherently limited in what she could say about her H's shortcomings

A careful read of her article describes the bed being a 'no contact' zone despite her repeated, clench jawed requests for ummm - connection. 

If it looks like a sexless marriage, sounds like one, and walks like one........




EleGirl said:


> And women wonder why younger men aren't interested in marriage
> 
> LOL... one woman does something and apparently it means all women are not good?
> 
> Maybe we could also find stories about men who mistreat their wives ... after all that happens too.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

She says "I never knew how lonely one could be in a marriage", that is the worst thing a man can do to to a woman, leave her alone but married. The flip side is a woman shaming her man. (Both according to _How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It_).


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MEM2020 said:


> Ele,
> 
> I read the article. My take on it is this:
> - She used her REAL NAME, thereby making her H identifiable
> ...


The title of the thread is:

"And women wonder why younger men aren't interested in marriage"

The point I was addressing is the title of the thread, not the content of the article.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I the long run he will be better off without her. She will always be finding herself. Because she never looks within.

Can there be any worse hell then to be married to a narcissist who writes repeated articles about themselves on the internet? For the HP for God's sake! (you are so brave.) I would rather have my **** cut off.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

And there are components to the OP's position:
1. This behavior is bad/unfair/selfish/wrong
2. It is also common

You addressed (2), while I addressed (1).




EleGirl said:


> The title of the thread is:
> 
> "And women wonder why younger men aren't interested in marriage"
> 
> The point I was addressing is the title of the thread, not the content of the article.


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## Miss Independent (Mar 24, 2014)

.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MEM2020 said:


> And there are components to the OP's position:
> 1. This behavior is bad/unfair/selfish/wrong
> 2. It is also common
> 
> You addressed (2), while I addressed (1).


What is common? Sexless marriage?


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Stack said:


> My Light Went Out | The Huffington Post
> 
> Carly Israel says he was a kind man and an excellent father. Despite knowing it would destroy him and their three boys, she decided to "choose me" and divorce this good man. She list 10 gifts from a messy divorce which include: You get to really, truly know your ex; You get closer to God...
> 
> ...


Reading the article, it sounds like she really was dying inside. She said pleading, but based on the rest of it, I'm not confident she literally pleaded with or every articulated what was really wrong. "Quiet clenching jaw" he wouldn't necessarily be aware of. Same with "both of us on our phones." If she's on her phone too just wishing he would engage her, how is he to know something is wrong?

Regardless, it sounds like the marriage was sucking the life out of her.

I don't know what "Strayed" is, but the quote she uses at the end seemed really stupid to me. If all those things are true why would someone want to leave? That sounds to me like the words of a bitter woman who wants to justify her own inability to have a good relationship by encouraging happily married women everywhere to dump their husbands. But maybe there is something before that part of the quote that sets up why you would leave someone you love and think is wonderful...

Lastly - I don't get the title of this thread. Why would this one woman's divorce and that one author's lame writing make younger guys want to not get married? Are you suggesting that attitude is prevalent and most young guys believe that most women consider husbands disposable? I do think there is some of that attitude in our culture today but I think it's gender neutral. I think most young guys who don't want to get married don't want to do it because they really don't have to. They can get easy sex, or just masturbate to porn, with no commitment and no responsibility. Pretty soon they'll be able to get a sexbot who will never complain about anything. Why put up with a needy wife?

And young women can be financially independent and even have children without having to put up with a lazy irritable husband who can't be bothered to spend time with them or even have a conversation with them, but wants sex all the time.

I think young people of both genders have grown up in an environment with lots of options, able to do pretty much whatever they please, exposed to growing lack of committment in the culture around them, and many of them just don't want to be bothered.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Although I am happily married, I wonder if the institution itself has outlived its usefulness? Perhaps it would be better if men and women were only out for themselves. Children would be basically a material possession for women and men would basically pay women to allow them to continue their genetic line. Similar to child support I guess. Couples would live together only as long as BOTH felt it was worth it and then could walk away at any time. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

We already have 5 wedding invites this year and in every case the man asked the woman to marry him. Maybe jaded old men aren't getting married but then again who wants them?


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

They'll both be fine. 
And life will go on, as it always does. 

She will learn what a marriage means to her. 

He will learn to be with someone that is happy with what he brings.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> And women wonder why younger men aren't interested in marriage
> 
> LOL... one woman does something and apparently it means all women are not good?
> 
> Maybe we could also find stories about men who mistreat their wives ... after all that happens too.


*With extremely rare exception, only the cheating, unfaithful partner who is afflicted by a jaundiced eye for all of the excitement of "pinker pastures" elsewhere are the ones who are prohibitively deemed to be "no good!"*


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## EunuchMonk (Jan 3, 2016)

TX-SC said:


> Although I am happily married, I wonder if the institution itself has outlived its usefulness? Perhaps it would be better if men and women were only out for themselves. Children would be basically a material possession for women and men would basically pay women to allow them to continue their genetic line. Similar to child support I guess. Couples would live together only as long as BOTH felt it was worth it and then could walk away at any time.
> 
> Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


Persons would inevitably get attached and hurt when the other wanted to leave. In all relationships you usually find a person who is more invested and the other who is invested but not as much as their partner. That is the one would not want to walk away.

Romantic love will always, I think, have a possessive aspect to it. "I want you. I want you to be mine." Marriage is merely a by-product of this desire. When this disappears so will marriage.

And let's not even get into the problems for many children growing up in single parent homes.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

This is what I don't understand about the article... she says this :



> I cried daily as I walked around my perfect house. Six years of marriage counseling, three beautiful boys, no black eyes, no adultery, no gambling and I was dying inside, every day.
> 
> *I never knew how lonely one could be in a marriage, lying in bed next to each other, not touching, on our phones, like passing ships. He was a kind man and a good father. How I hungered for connection and wanting. Quiet clenching jaws and pleading ignored.* But we had these little kids and divorce would destroy them. And divorce would destroy him. So I would stay. I chose to stay, over and over. And each day, a little piece of me died.


then she ends the article with this:



> “Go, *even though you love him.*
> Go, *even though he is kind and faithful and dear to you.*
> Go,* even though he’s your best friend and you’re his. *
> Go, even though you can’t imagine your life without him.
> ...


I find what's highlighted in blue terribly *contradictory*... she wasn't happy at all.. that "loving feeling" was lost.. he sure as heck wasn't her best friend, nor does it sound he was "dear" to her, given the emotional connection was gone, with her "dying" beside him... why would she even say how much he adored her.. while saying her pleading was "ignored".. Men who adore and love their wives don't ignore their pleas and they care that their wives are happy, fulfilled..

One thing was for certain- their communication wasn't effective, even with counseling...something was greatly amiss. 

The article doesn't really address what was the core issues (sure sounds like a sexless marriage!).....I can understand why she left given her feeling like this.... but her saying all this at the end.. ...better to say it was once like that... then it all ended in a heap of resentment and they were nothing more than roommates...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

SimplyAmorous said:


> This is what I don't understand about the article... she says this :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The disconnect is it takes two to make a marriage work. In the article she makes it sound like just he was the problem. These problems were her responsibility too. I'm sure her next marriage will end up the same way. Marriage isn't a panacea for lack of happiness.


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## Stack (Mar 14, 2016)

She had a "perfect house". She had a "perfect life." She had "beautiful boys." Since there is so much rationalization of her choice, it seems she married a man for many reasons other than love: the house, the lifestyle, the social circle, then had kids... 

I read it to my wife and she called BS. She said women lie. What you see is not what you get with most women. It's what girls learn, from other girls, at an early age. This woman is no different. She desperately is trying to create a narrative to make herself feel better about what she did. She cannot be authentic because she replaced the mask she claims to have discarded with another, just as fake. The only honest part of the article, "... I always knew what I would do. When I looked in the mirror, I always saw the truth." 

Why Women Are More Likely To Initiate Divorce
Americans want not only a spouse who is reliable and reasonable, but also someone who is their best friend, and a great lover, and someone who pays the bills … but is also really fun. According to research Gender of Breakup presented at the American Sociological Association’s annual meeting last week, these heightened expectations can leave women feeling worse off in marriage than men. In a survey of 2,262 adults in heterosexual partnerships over the course of five years, Rosenfeld found that women initiate divorces 69 percent of the time. 

Forget The One... Look For One Of The Ones Instead
“We stayed in the marriage those extra years perhaps,” Hughes writes, “in small part, because we were operating under the misguided notion that there was only one person suited for each of us in our lives and we had found that One and therefore it was lunatic to separate.” For her, One of the Ones felt like a healthier way to acknowledge that there can be different Ones for you as you move through life. “The One for you in your 20s may not be The One for you in your 40s. Splitting up when you’re no longer The One for each other gives each of you the opportunity to find The One for the next phase of your life, so you can keep growing.”


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I the long run he will be better off without her. She will always be finding herself. Because she never looks within.
> 
> Can there be any worse hell then to be married to a narcissist who writes repeated articles about themselves on the internet? For the HP for God's sake! (you are so brave.) I would rather have my **** cut off.


I thought of one. Having a parent who writes repeated articles about themselves. Anyone want to take bets on her writing an article about hating being a parent? "It was a mistake to have my kids", by Carly Israel, (how brave)


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

The sexbots can't come soon enough. >


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

EunuchMonk said:


> Hope you're not one of those red-pill guys. I find them to be so schizophrenic. They complain about how bad women are but they still can't stop talking about them. It's like a weird worshipping/demonising dynamic that's sad. I mean just go about your business and don't worry about it.


But you cannot ignore that the MGTOW is a growing nascent movement, and it will continue to grow as the socioeconomic changes continue. It would be foolish to dismiss this stuff out of hand.


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## Stack (Mar 14, 2016)

Miss Independent said:


> When are you guys going to write about "And men wonder why younger woman aren't interested in marriage?"
> 
> I'm in my early 20s. I know PLENTY of younger women who have no desire to ever get married.
> 
> ...


Helen Smith (2013): Men on Strike: Why Men Are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood, and the American Dream - and Why It Matters

_American society has become anti-male. Men are sensing the backlash and are consciously and unconsciously going “on strike.” They are dropping out of college, leaving the workforce and avoiding marriage and fatherhood at alarming rates. The trend is so pronounced that a number of books have been written about this “man-child” phenomenon, concluding that men have taken a vacation from responsibility simply because they can. But why should men participate in a system that seems to be increasingly stacked against them?

As Men on Strike demonstrates, men aren’t dropping out because they are stuck in arrested development. They are instead acting rationally in response to the lack of incentives society offers them to be responsible fathers, husbands and providers. In addition, men are going on strike, either consciously or unconsciously, because they do not want to be injured by the myriad of laws, attitudes and hostility against them for the crime of happening to be male in the twenty-first century._


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

This woman couldn't find happiness in herself, in her marriage, so she did divorce, so she could be happy and maybe that's somewhat selfish but maybe it was for the best, now her and her ex have a chance to find someone who can appreciate them. 

Her biggest mistake was thinking that you can find happiness in a perfect life, no you find happiness in yourself and self esteem. 
If you really want long term happiness, it doesn't happen magically, it happens with hard work and understanding. 

She does not represent every woman, if you believe that each woman thinks the exact same, then there is something wrong here. 
Plenty of men have left great women due to unhappiness, boredom etc
It goes both ways. That's life. 
Doesn't mean that every man or woman has the same attitude as represented in media articles. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

I think we sometimes marry for the wrong reasons and as we mature it becomes obvious that you aren't and never really were compatible with the person you married. I don't think that people do change on a fundamental level, so I disagree with that aspect of her stance. Some people just become more aware of who they are and less tolerant of being with someone who doesn't and never did fit them well. 

I see it in my own marriage and have consciously chosen to stay for now, despite the fact that I know that my H and I are not compatible in some very fundamental ways. Knowing that makes me more tolerant than I used to be and kinder. Does it make me happier? No. Does it mean that I should leave the marriage? I don't know the answer to that. We share a long history together, we have children, our lives are completely inter-meshed. The writer obviously decided all that was less important than her own personal happiness. I don't condemn her for that decision. I've wrestled many times with whether or not to make the same one.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MrsAldi said:


> This woman couldn't find happiness in herself, in her marriage, so she did divorce, so she could be happy and maybe that's somewhat selfish but maybe it was for the best, now her and her ex have a chance to find someone who can appreciate them.
> 
> Her biggest mistake was thinking that you can find happiness in a perfect life, no you find happiness in yourself and self esteem.
> If you really want long term happiness, it doesn't happen magically, it happens with hard work and understanding.
> ...


It is disturbing to see so many articles and books like this published though. Look at the author of "Eat, Pray, Love" this book and it's ideas were celebrated as kind of a post-modern feminist manifesto, the author is celebrated as strong and courageous. Then she leaves her husband for her girlfriend. Still celebrated. (so brave)

The truth is she was always a narcisist. I don't see many men writing articles like this and if so I doubt the are being celebrated, if you can find some point me to them, I would like to see the comments. I see ones from unmarried men talking about getting more sex, lots of those. I see red pill talk about not getting married at all. I don't see, articles like "my wife wasn't fulfilling me so I left her and my kids because my happiness is the most important thing in the world!" If men say that are failures as men and rightfully so. The comments about her bravery and how she is an inspiration scare me. This is the apex of the me first culture. This woman had children, now what has she done to their lives? How has she affected their lives? Being an adult very often means you suffer.

This goes back to the idea of you can have it all in life. Why do you deserve that which no one has, why does anyone? That is not even the purpose of life, it should not even be in the discussion. If you think this way you are going to fail and suffer.


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## Stack (Mar 14, 2016)

sokillme said:


> This goes back to the idea of you can have it all in life.


If I may, my wife would add the word... lie. 

"This goes back to the LIE women are told that they can have it all."


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Stack said:


> Helen Smith (2013): Men on Strike: Why Men Are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood, and the American Dream - and Why It Matters
> 
> _American society has become anti-male. Men are sensing the backlash and are consciously and unconsciously going “on strike.” They are dropping out of college, leaving the workforce and avoiding marriage and fatherhood at alarming rates. The trend is so pronounced that a number of books have been written about this “man-child” phenomenon, concluding that men have taken a vacation from responsibility simply because they can. But why should men participate in a system that seems to be increasingly stacked against them?
> 
> As Men on Strike demonstrates, men aren’t dropping out because they are stuck in arrested development. They are instead acting rationally in response to the lack of incentives society offers them to be responsible fathers, husbands and providers. In addition, men are going on strike, either consciously or unconsciously, because they do not want to be injured by the myriad of laws, attitudes and hostility against them for the crime of happening to be male in the twenty-first century._


It's a smart move. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

sokillme said:


> It is disturbing to see so many articles and books like this published though. Look at the author of "Eat, Pray, Love" this book and it's ideas were celebrated as kind of a post-modern feminist manifesto, the author is celebrated as strong and courageous. Then she leaves her husband for her girlfriend. Still celebrated. (so brave)


I watched Eat, Pray, Love. It didn't appeal to me, but I understood that the author wasn't happy with her life so she did something about it, I didn't see any feminist propaganda there. 



> The truth is she was always a narcisist. I don't see many men writing articles like this and if so I doubt the are being celebrated, if you can find some point me to them, I would like to see the comments. I see ones from unmarried men talking about getting more sex, lots of those. I see red pill talk about not getting married at all. I don't see, articles like "my wife wasn't fulfilling me so I left her and my kids because my happiness is the most important thing in the world!" If men say that are failures as men and rightfully so. The comments about her bravery and how she is an inspiration scare me. This is the apex of the me first culture. This woman had children, now what has she done to their lives? How has she affected their lives? Being an adult very often means you suffer.


We have had plenty of stories on TAM where the husband isn't happy at home with his wife, she a great woman, but he just isn't happy. If men want to write about it in media, go ahead, maybe they don't bother because they are happy now and feel no need to. 

Red Pill or Feminism who cares, these
people aren't leaving because of some battle of the sexes, they are simply leaving because they are unhappy. 
But the articles etc are used to fuel fires in these debates. 



> This goes back to the idea of you can have it all in life. Why do you deserve that which no one has, why does anyone? That is not even the purpose of life, it should not even be in the discussion. If you think this way you are going to fail and suffer.


The purpose of any human life should be to find happiness, after all it is short. 
If you need to have it all in order to be happy, I don't see a problem. 

Should you leave a perfectly good man in order to be happy? 

Personally, this is my opinion only, I would not, I would work on myself and then the marriage, but that's me, I can't expect others to do the same because I don't know if they would be happy. 

I don't understand why a man would want a woman who isn't happy to stay with him anyway? Isn't he better off? 
I am honestly struggling to understand why you guys are getting angry over this? Don't you want someone who wants you back? The woman in the article doesn't want the guy, should they be forced to stay married perhaps sexless just because? Please can you explain why this woman should stay with the guy? 


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## Stack (Mar 14, 2016)

Our oldest daughter will turn 21yrs in ~2 weeks. Yesterday, I drove her back to school (yes, she likes me to drive her). Over the 90 minutes, we spoke about what she's wants to do after graduation, classes, Bible study, guys, specifically Christian guys... and eventually her friends. In that specific part of our discussion...

What my wife and I have told our children... you have to have the physical attraction or else it won't be the marriage you dream of. Right or wrong, we believe that to be true for many reasons, but mostly because that attraction is there for us. Her friends are getting married and she sees... 

She brought up her "mentor" (now graduated), who married a man in a wheelchair last fall. She attended the wedding. My daughter says she's not happy. It;s not good when she already questions if she can "do it" and says her husband "would look better in contacts." The husband has a great job, is intelligent, nice, funny, "really funny"... she sees that her friend probably isn't attracted to him and wonders why she married him. Me too. 

Then, she showed me a pic of another married friend. She towered over her husband. He may have barely come to her shoulders, even though she was doing her best to crouch down (without being obvious) to look smaller. His smile stretched from ear to ear. She's wasn't smiling. I asked if there were any pics of them with her smiling. After looking, she said, "No, not really." 

I asked about Piper (alias). She has been friends with since the 3rd grade. Piper said, last fall, that she wasn't sure if she wanted to get engaged to her boyfriend of two years. Now, six months later, she's ready, but doesn't want a long engagement, something about her family, so she told him to wait until they both graduate. 

Again, I started to tell her that when a woman wants to be with a man, she doesn't wait or make excuses... she'll take a long engagement and hope her family approves. She kept saying, I know. I know. 

My point, many women will marry for may reasons other than love. Way too many women settle. To say otherwise, is simply untrue.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

TX-SC said:


> Although I am happily married, I wonder if the institution itself has outlived its usefulness? Perhaps it would be better if men and women were only out for themselves. Children would be basically a material possession for women and men would basically pay women to allow them to continue their genetic line. Similar to child support I guess. Couples would live together only as long as BOTH felt it was worth it and then could walk away at any time.
> 
> Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


You pose an interesting question. Many young people seem to feel that the institution is no longer useful, and if you look at it in terms of how things used to be - where women and children really needed a man to provide financial support, and men really needed a wife to get steady sex and have their home cared for, I suppose you could say it is not useful. Also how quickly we dissolve unsatisfying marriages now.

But when you look at the statistics of the outcomes for children raised in stable, two parent households, vs. those raised in poverty by a single parent, marriage looks very useful.

When you look at our life spans too though - how long we are living - that can also be a point against marriage - especially to those not thrilled with their first choice... Do I really want to be with this person the rest of my life? LOL. Of course then again, as we age it's nice to have someone we can count on.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MrsAldi said:


> The purpose of any human life should be to find happiness, after all it is short.
> If you need to have it all in order to be happy, I don't see a problem.


This comes down to the fundamental meaning of life. If your purpose in life is to be happy then yes it makes sense to do whatever it takes, but even if you take that philosophy as gospel where do you end and others begin. You could spend a whole lifetime taking about this. For instance what if what makes me happy makes others sad or hurts others. I also think striving to have it all is a fool's errand. It's like trying to collect all the sand on the beach. It's a waste of time and you are doomed to fail. 

Personally, I strongly disagree with your assertion of the purpose of life. I do agree that this is what today's age tells you should be your purpose in life. I believe once you are a parent your happiness must take a back seat as far as your purpose. I believe once you get marriage your spouse's happiness should at least be as important as your own. 

Then there is the philosophy that the purpose in life is to help your fellow man. For instance, MLK's life was short, most would argue it was a life well lived and much more important than say a Hollywood star that so many or today's young people strive to become. 

Finally, religious people's purpose in life is very different than happiness. For Christians for instance, the purpose spoken about in the gospels is really "go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation". It really says nothing about happiness. Most of Christ's followers suffered greatly. 




> I don't understand why a man would want a woman who isn't happy to stay with him anyway? Isn't he better off?
> I am honestly struggling to understand why you guys are getting angry over this? Don't you want someone who wants you back? The woman in the article doesn't want the guy, should they be forced to stay married perhaps sexless just because? Please can you explain why this woman should stay with the guy?


You REALLY have a hard time understanding that? You don't see the injustice in it? The fact that the children will suffer. The fact that her husband has wasted so much time trying to build a life for someone so ungrateful. I would feel the same if it was a man writing the same thing by the way. My point is only there seems to be some sentiment that this woman is a kind of an ideal to strive for by many women. Like how strong she is, how powerful. That is scary. 

This is made out to be some great courageous decision by some. When in reality her decision is really everyones base instinct, there is nothing courageous about it. It is just as courageous to stay and fight know it may be a losing proposition. I think it is a decision born out of a lifetime of self-centered thinking. the truth is there is no way this woman will ever be happy the way thinks she deserves. Life is not really happy and you don't deserve happiness anyway. Life has moments of happiness and sadness. Overall Happiness is a choice. 

Mostly I think it is a waste and I feel sorry for a man or woman who happened to end up with people like this. Unfortunately, in a society makes "Me" the center of it, it will be very hard to have good relationships. When you make your life is about me, in the end, all you are left with is yourself. 

I think he will be better off. It's doubtful his their kids will, though.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Stack said:


> Our oldest daughter will turn 21yrs in ~2 weeks. Yesterday, I drove her back to school (yes, she likes me to drive her). Over the 90 minutes, we spoke about what she's wants to do after graduation, classes, Bible study, guys, specifically Christian guys... and eventually her friends. In that specific part of our discussion...
> 
> What my wife and I have told our children... you have to have the physical attraction or else it won't be the marriage you dream of. Right or wrong, we believe that to be true for many reasons, but mostly because that attraction is there for us. Her friends are getting married and she sees...
> 
> ...


I think romantic love is way too important in western society. You could say just as many women and men make the mistake and marry for romantic love alone. When the romantic love slows down, as is its wont, they are left with nothing in the marriage to hold onto. I mean I get what you are saying and agree to a certain extent, but Eastern marriages have a much better success rate. Attraction, even knowing the person isn't a big part of the equation in the beginning. This creates some dissonance in our position. 

In the end, the men in these stories are forced to settle too, but they don't even know it until it is too late. Their choice is taken away from them. The women in the stories aren't even honest with themselves, let alone the ones they love. What a terribly selfish thing it is to do a person when you marry them only because they make you feel secure. How awful is it to steal all that time from them, time they could be using find someone who truly desires them. Lots of people do this though. 

Marrying for attraction has it's danger too. People lose their looks. 

The common denominator in all these stories is the fact that younger people don't really know what they want and very few have the experience and are wise enough to make good choices. You would do better just to encourage you children to wait until they get older.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

sokillme said:


> You REALLY have a hard time understanding that? You don't see the injustice in it? The fact that the children will suffer. The fact that her husband has wasted so much time trying to build a life for someone so ungrateful. I would feel the same if it was a man writing the same thing by the way.


Staying together for the kids, I don't know if it's the best.
Children can suffer just as much with parents staying together for the sake of them. 
There is nothing worse than being a child with two unhappy parents, believe me, I have been there and witnessed. 



> My point is only there seems to be some sentiment that this woman is a kind of an ideal to strive for by many women. Like how strong she is, how powerful. That is scary.
> This is made out to be some great courageous decision by some. When in reality her decision is really everyones base instinct, there is nothing courageous about it.


I don't see her decision as strong or powerful or courageous, but I think it's better that she left him rather than cheating, because if she stayed married wouldn't it be inevitable as she clearly had already given up. 



> It is just as courageous to stay and fight know it may be a losing proposition. I think it is a decision born out of a lifetime of self-centered thinking. the truth is there is no way this woman will ever be happy the way thinks she deserves. Life is not really happy and you don't deserve happiness anyway. Life has moments of happiness and sadness. Overall Happiness is a choice.


I agree, it's quite possible that this woman will find it hard to be happy. Maybe marriage just isn't for her, some people just aren't meant to be married. 



> I think he will be better off. It's doubtful their kids will, though.


Yes, he will be better off finding a woman who can love him properly. 

The kids? It's hard to know, if they had unhappy, depressed parents arguing or no love, that can be just as bad. 

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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

TX-SC said:


> Although I am happily married, I wonder if the institution itself has outlived its usefulness? Perhaps it would be better if men and women were only out for themselves. Children would be basically a material possession for women and men would basically pay women to allow them to continue their genetic line. Similar to child support I guess. Couples would live together only as long as BOTH felt it was worth it and then could walk away at any time.
> 
> Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


This was sarcasm, right? 

Where have you been for the last fifty years? It started in Cal. in 1969. The last state to adopt it was New York in 2010.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-fault_divorce



> 1969[edit]
> 
> - The American radical organization Redstockings organized.[92]
> 
> ...


The term "mutual" is a bit misleading, but not many men want to stay with a cheating wife. So, according to your attorney, all you have to do is cheat or make your husband believe you cheated, and your husband will mutually agree to the divorce. Otherwise, you end up the laughing stock of the male population of your area. 

Of course, over fifty years, society has chosen to accept infidelity as a "natural" part of humans. This had to be done to try to reverse the devastation on marriages and slow divorce. So, psychologists had to invent ways to excuse such behavior and find blame for the husband, thereby allowing him to keep his dignity by admitting to his friends he was at fault. This saves face and the marriage in some instances. 

Those last two paragraphs are my opinion, based on what I have read and observed over my lifetime.

My apologies to those women and men who were abused during marriage. I did not consider you in this discourse. Exceptions should be made for laws which are too general.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> This was sarcasm, right?
> 
> Where have you been for the last fifty years? It started in Cal. in 1969. The last state to adopt it was New York in 2010.
> 
> ...


Yes, it was mostly sarcasm based on the story linked in the original post. But, it's no doubt that once kids are involved, the father/husband tends to get screwed royally. I understand no fault divorce, but once it comes to kids it all goes to crap. 

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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

TX-SC said:


> Yes, it was mostly sarcasm based on the story linked in the original post. But, it's no doubt that once kids are involved, the father/husband tends to get screwed royally. I understand no fault divorce, but once it comes to kids it all goes to crap.
> 
> Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


Been there. Done that. Got the scars. They don't or didn't care who the father was, either. As long as someone paid, it was okay with the court. Oh, and paid for college for that non biological child whose mother told her and her "dad", she wasn't his daughter........at her wedding rehearsal. 

The c word isn't even close to bad enough.  I don't think that's bannable, is it?


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## Hellomynameis (Dec 16, 2016)

Stack said:


> My point, many women will marry for may reasons other than love. Way too many women settle. To say otherwise, is simply untrue.


You make it sound like men DON'T settle. But many do - especially less attractive ones. Ever notice how many unattractive people are married to other unattractive people? Do you really think they want it that way? No, they settle for each other because they believe no one else will have them. And then wonder why they don't enjoy being together.

My husband settled for me. The woman he loved married someone else so he just married the next woman who showed interest in him - me. I suppose I settled for him as well - I was attracted to him intellectually and emotionally but not physically. I thought 2 out of 3 was good enough. I was wrong. We had no chemistry, the sex was awful, he ended up cheating and then leaving. It was honestly all probably very predictable.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

I think a successful marriage takes 2 accommodating and honest people, at a minimum and at the core.

If you're willing to accommodate that means you're willing to change. Since everyone changes over a lifetime, if both are accommodating, you can literally build a life together.

I didn't read the link but the summaries were adequate for me to conclude this couple lacked that basic desire to accommodate each other. Her crazy contradictory statements tell me she's also not honest. I'll point out that a lot of people aren't just dishonest with others; they're dishonest with themselves - this woman is one or both of those.

We are hit with far too many unexpected events, opportunities, and negative things in life. A partner you respect, trust, like and who is willing to feel the same about you makes like a lot easier.

There are lots of other things that impact a marriage, of course, but I think if a few core personality aspects like those I mentioned are missing, your chance of failure rises dramatically.

But if you have those qualities, marriage can be great and provide intrinsic things you never imagined alone.



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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"Helen Smith (2013): Men on Strike: Why Men Are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood, and the American Dream - and Why It Matters"

What does this have to do with dropping out of college and the workforce? Aren't these guys concerned about their future? Who do they think will be supporting them? 

If they don't want to get married, fine; but don't cut off your nose to spite your face.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

TheTruthHurts said:


> I think a successful marriage takes 2 accommodating and honest people, at a minimum and at the core.
> 
> If you're willing to accommodate that means you're willing to change. Since everyone changes over a lifetime, if both are accommodating, you can literally build a life together.
> 
> ...


I very much agree with this. After 21 years of marriage, my wife and I have changed significantly. She and I both have matured so much. She was 22 when we married and is 43 now. I was 27 then and 48 now. That's a whole lot of growing and changing. However, our love is STRONGER now than when we met. Why? 

The answer is simple, we grew, we adapted, we loved each other as we changed. Neither has felt "trapped" and neither has cheated. 

Without trying to sound too "get off my yard you sorry kid", I do believe that younger people are more "me oriented" than ever before. Swinging and open relationships have been around forever, but up until recently, they were not mentioned and you kept it a secret. Now it seems people are much more open about it and perhaps more open to it. News articles and books are being written about how much it helps a marriage. So, why be chained to one person for life when the opposite oppinion is being thrown at them more and more? 

I really believe that the desire to be married is a learned behavior. We are taught from an early age that we should get married and have kids. Little girls (and boys) are told that one day they will find Mr. or Ms. Right one day and live happily ever after. So, now these kids are also being told "Have a husband, have a lover or two in the side, it's all good! If it doesn't work out you just divorce. It's as easy as that!" 

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## Stack (Mar 14, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I think romantic love is way too important in western society. You could say just as many women and men make the mistake and marry for romantic love alone. When the romantic love slows down, as is its wont, they are left with nothing in the marriage to hold onto. I mean I get what you are saying and agree to a certain extent, but Eastern marriages have a much better success rate. Attraction, even knowing the person isn't a big part of the equation in the beginning. This creates some dissonance in our position.
> 
> In the end, the men in these stories are forced to settle too, but they don't even know it until it is too late. Their choice is taken away from them. The women in the stories aren't even honest with themselves, let alone the ones they love. What a terribly selfish thing it is to do a person when you marry them only because they make you feel secure. How awful is it to steal all that time from them, time they could be using find someone who truly desires them. Lots of people do this though.
> 
> ...


For the record, no one said romantic love is the primary factor in determining whether you should marry or not... I certainly didn't. What I said was... physical attraction has to be part of the equation. There is a difference and women are acutely aware of the importance of physical attraction in a relationship. 

FYI... most men don't settle. Most men, when they marry, love and find their bride physically attractive. Most men are clueless that women have trouble being honest... what you see is not what you get with most women. I have seen many frustrated husbands because it's obvious their wife does not "like them like that" or, worse yet, is openly disrespectful. Many wives identify with sex-as-a-chore sentiment and wish the whole ordeal could just be put on hold… they act like their sex life is a burden.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MrsAldi said:


> Staying together for the kids, I don't know if it's the best.
> Children can suffer just as much with parents staying together for the sake of them.
> There is nothing worse than being a child with two unhappy parents, believe me, I have been there and witnessed.


My problem is not the point where they are breaking up. I actually agree it's better for him if she leaves. My problem is her general mentality. It was never going to be what she wanted in the first place. I have issue with her mindset. It's such a waste. 



MrsAldi said:


> I don't see her decision as strong or powerful or courageous, but I think it's better that she left him rather than cheating, because if she stayed married wouldn't it be inevitable as she clearly had already given up.


You may not but read the comments plenty do, though thankfully many don't.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

After reading Blondi's post.....What? :scratchhead:


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> Been there. Done that. Got the scars. They don't or didn't care who the father was, either. As long as someone paid, it was okay with the court. Oh, and paid for college for that non biological child whose mother told her and her "dad", she wasn't his daughter........at her wedding rehearsal.
> 
> The c word isn't even close to bad enough.  I don't think that's bannable, is it?


We need better paternity fraud laws no doubt and mandatory DNA testing at birth, but men have to be strong enough to demand it, and not let them shame us about it. 

My solution for paternity fraud and support is the father pays until the kid is and adult, so that I don't have to pay with my taxes but then the mother has to repay with interest in restitution. And the wages can be forfeited and assets ceased just like any other default parent, with possible criminal penalties and jail time. This seems like a decent compromise. It will also give her some motivation to go after the real father.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Hellomynameis said:


> You make it sound like men DON'T settle. But many do - especially less attractive ones. Ever notice how many unattractive people are married to other unattractive people? Do you really think they want it that way? No, they settle for each other because they believe no one else will have them. And then wonder why they don't enjoy being together.
> 
> My husband settled for me. The woman he loved married someone else so he just married the next woman who showed interest in him - me. I suppose I settled for him as well - I was attracted to him intellectually and emotionally but not physically. I thought 2 out of 3 was good enough. I was wrong. We had no chemistry, the sex was awful, he ended up cheating and then leaving. It was honestly all probably very predictable.


Wow the classic American love story. :surprise:


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## Stack (Mar 14, 2016)

Hellomynameis said:


> You make it sound like men DON'T settle. But many do - especially less attractive ones. Ever notice how many unattractive people are married to other unattractive people? Do you really think they want it that way? No, they settle for each other because they believe no one else will have them. And then wonder why they don't enjoy being together.
> 
> My husband settled for me. The woman he loved married someone else so he just married the next woman who showed interest in him - me. I suppose I settled for him as well - I was attracted to him intellectually and emotionally but not physically. I thought 2 out of 3 was good enough. I was wrong. We had no chemistry, the sex was awful, he ended up cheating and then leaving. It was honestly all probably very predictable.


Hence the qualifier MOST... when I use "MOST" I'm referring to The 80/20 Rule (Pareto Principle). 

The physical attraction wasn't there and the marriage didn't last. 
Physical attraction = intimacy. 
Without intimacy = sex is shallow... husband and wife don't bond.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

TX-SC said:


> I really believe that the desire to be married is a learned behavior.


This doesn't make it bad though. Most of the behaviors we do in life from brushing our teeth to getting out of bed in the early morning are learned behaviors. Most of us if left to our base behaviors would be acting like Neanderthals. 

The question really should be does monogamous marriage benefit society. I personally think it does. I think in the long run we all benefit from it both in the macro and in the micro. I think peoples expectations of what it provides individually are what is out of whack. I also thing peoples entitlement is really out of whack.


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## Stack (Mar 14, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> After reading Blondi's post.....What? :scratchhead:


+1...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Stack said:


> For the record, no one said romantic love is the primary factor in determining whether you should marry or not... I certainly didn't. What I said was... physical attraction has to be part of the equation. There is a difference and women are acutely aware of the importance of physical attraction in a relationship.
> 
> FYI... most men don't settle. Most men, when they marry, love and find their bride physically attractive. Most men are clueless that women have trouble being honest... what you see is not what you get with most women. I have seen many frustrated husbands because it's obvious their wife does not "like them like that" or, worse yet, is openly disrespectful. Many wives identify with sex-as-a-chore sentiment and wish the whole ordeal could just be put on hold… they act like their sex life is a burden.


I think they don't realize they are settling because they are not giving the truth. No man want's to be the safe choice if they knew they wouldn't settle for it.


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## Hellomynameis (Dec 16, 2016)

Stack said:


> FYI... most men don't settle. Most men, when they marry, love and find their bride physically attractive. Most men are clueless that women have trouble being honest... what you see is not what you get with most women. I have seen many frustrated husbands because it's obvious their wife does not "like them like that" or, worse yet, is openly disrespectful. Many wives identify with sex-as-a-chore sentiment and wish the whole ordeal could just be put on hold… they act like their sex life is a burden.


Seriously? You don't think the overweight, unattractive men out there didnt settle for their equally overweight, unattractive partners? What man would marry a Rosanne Barr or even a Lena Dunham if he thought he could get Sandra Bullock or Jennifer Aniston? And what woman would marry a John Candy or a Drew Carey if she thought she had a chance with a Tom Cruise or a Mark Harmon? It definitely works both ways. I'm not trying to be mean, I've seen it in action. The unattractive man marries the unattractive woman before his career is established. Then he gets rich and suddenly beautiful women are interested and the unattractive wife is thrown aside without a second thought. For a woman with looks who wants his money and not him and will probably leave him as soon as she gets her 10 years in.

And even the men who marry attractive women tend to trade them in once they show too many signs of age. Which tells me they didn't marry for "true love."


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## Stack (Mar 14, 2016)

Hellomynameis said:


> Seriously? You don't think the overweight, unattractive men out there didnt settle for their equally overweight, unattractive partners? What man would marry a Rosanne Barr or even a Lena Dunham if he thought he could get Sandra Bullock or Jennifer Aniston? And what woman would marry a John Candy or a Drew Carey if she thought she had a chance with a Tom Cruise or a Mark Harmon? It definitely works both ways. I'm not trying to be mean, I've seen it in action. The unattractive man marries the unattractive woman before his career is established. Then he gets rich and suddenly beautiful women are interested and the unattractive wife is thrown aside without a second thought. For a woman with looks who wants his money and not him and will probably leave him as soon as she gets her 10 years in.
> 
> And even the men who marry attractive women tend to trade them in once they show too many signs of age. Which tells me they didn't marry for "true love."


There is a huge difference in the way each gender perceives their situation. Most men, view the situation as choosing the best from his available options. Men are adept at realizing their options are limited. 

Women see it as settling... as in, checking off as many items on a list. 

And, most men don't trade for a younger model...


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

sokillme said:


> This doesn't make it bad though.


Of course not. I didn't mean to insinuate that it was a bad thing. What I was pointing out is that it is a learned behavior, and learned behaviors can be unlearned. Lets look at it a different way: 

If we went back in time 300 years, I think we would agree that marriage would be a bit different than we know it today. It would be somewhat similar, but the roles of men and women in marriage and society would be different and perhaps the reasons for getting married might be different. Also, the idea of divorce, although not unheard of, was much more frowned upon. So, lets now travel AHEAD in time 300 years from now. Do you think the idea of marriage as we know it will be different? I would wager that with the invention of the internet and mass exchange of ideas between people and cultures, that ideas and norms are changing faster now than ever before. Young people are being bombarded with "alternate" ideas and different ways of thinking. It would not surprise me at all if the notion of marriage isn't quite a bit different even within the next few generations. With gay marriage, transgender rights/pansexuality, women being taught that lesbianism is COOL and sexy, high divorce rates, open marriages/polyamory, and just people choosing to never get married, the notion of marriage is changing, and changing fast. 

I'm not sure that the idea of a monogamous marriage will ever go away, but I do believe the parameters are changing. Not sure if it's a good thing, but I think it will happen regardless. I personally LOVE being married to my wife. Will my kids feel the same way? My oldest daughter (15) says she is pansexual. My youngest (13) says she has no interest in boys OR girls (that will likely change, but who knows...).


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

TX-SC said:


> Of course not. I didn't mean to insinuate that it was a bad thing. What I was pointing out is that it is a learned behavior, and learned behaviors can be unlearned. Lets look at it a different way:
> 
> If we went back in time 300 years, I think we would agree that marriage would be a bit different than we know it today. It would be somewhat similar, but the roles of men and women in marriage and society would be different and perhaps the reasons for getting married might be different. Also, the idea of divorce, although not unheard of, was much more frowned upon. So, lets now travel AHEAD in time 300 years from now. Do you think the idea of marriage as we know it will be different? I would wager that with the invention of the internet and mass exchange of ideas between people and cultures, that ideas and norms are changing faster now than ever before. Young people are being bombarded with "alternate" ideas and different ways of thinking. It would not surprise me at all if the notion of marriage isn't quite a bit different even within the next few generations. With gay marriage, transgender rights/pansexuality, women being taught that lesbianism is COOL and sexy, high divorce rates, open marriages/polyamory, and just people choosing to never get married, the notion of marriage is changing, and changing fast.
> 
> I'm not sure that the idea of a monogamous marriage will ever go away, but I do believe the parameters are changing. Not sure if it's a good thing, but I think it will happen regardless. I personally LOVE being married to my wife. Will my kids feel the same way? My oldest daughter (15) says she is pansexual. My youngest (13) says she has no interest in boys OR girls (that will likely change, but who knows...).


The biggest change to marriage in the next 100 years is going to be VR and sexbots. The stigma will eventually go away and then your VR robot will really be able to be all the things you ever needed in a spouse. 

Another big one will be when life spans start to expand. This will open up the possibly of long term space exploration as it will minimize the idea of time. Do you really want to be married for eternity or until you get hit by a car? Personally I am glad I won't see it.


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## Hellomynameis (Dec 16, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Wow the classic American love story. :surprise:


I married for love. At 19 years old I didn't have the experience to know how important it was to have chemistry/strong physical attraction. He was a bright young rising star grad student at our uni - football player, high ranking in student government, on his way to a promising academic career. I thought he was wonderful. Was head over heels after only 2 weeks - enough so that I even violated my teenage purity pledge to hold onto him. Even risked my parents disowning me to move in with him after only 2 months dating. What foolish mistakes youth and inexperience make.

He on the other hand knew EXACTLY what he was doing. He couldn't have the woman he wanted so he SETTLED for the first woman who would have him. As a matter of fact he was initially using me to
try to make her jealous. He told me later that when we took our wedding vows he tacked on "until I find someone better" under his breath at the end. He became a bigwig corporate exec making hundreds of thousands a year and he was gone.

There was an article recently in one of the big women's magazines about how this "til death do us part ... Or until I find someone better" is becoming a very common attitude with young people of both sexes, and among both straight and gay couples. I find it very sad. It's a good argument against marriage.

I don't know. Maybe it's different where I live. We have a 60% divorce rate among 20-somethings in our school district. The women end up raising the kids alone and the guy is on to another woman - often a barely of legal age girl - before the divorce is even filed much less final. The ex wives often don't even date again much less remarry - they're seen as damaged goods and the most they can manage is casual sex relationships. Lots of kids growing up without fathers because the fathers dont care any more about their kids than they do their ex wives. I spent about 18 months working for social services investigating public assistance claims. Far too many abandoned women and children out there and the men are long gone. Why do they marry at all if they don't intend to stay?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Hellomynameis said:


> I married for love. At 19 years old I didn't have the experience to know how important it was to have chemistry/strong physical attraction. He was a bright young rising star grad student at our uni - football player, high ranking in student government, on his way to a promising academic career. I thought he was wonderful. Was head over heels after only 2 weeks - enough so that I even violated my teenage purity pledge to hold onto him. Even risked my parents disowning me to move in with him after only 2 months dating. What foolish mistakes youth and inexperience make.
> 
> He on the other hand knew EXACTLY what he was doing. He couldn't have the woman he wanted so he SETTLED for the first woman who would have him. As a matter of fact he was initially using me to
> try to make her jealous. He told me later that when we took our wedding vows he tacked on "until I find someone better" under his breath at the end. He became a bigwig corporate exec making hundreds of thousands a year and he was gone.
> ...


My God, you need to broaden your social circle. You are applying your situation to everyone. There are plenty of men who are in the exact same situation you are. Who raise the kids while there ex-wives are out finding their youth, or have upgraded to the top exec at their new job and left them in the dust. You need to read SI more (no don't). By the way from what you wrote you are the one who got the losing end of the deal in the marriage. He sounds like garbage. He may be nice on the outside and even athletic but on the inside he wasn't worth anything to any women who would have been his wife. He was so weak that he married someone he didn't love, I doubt this but if it is true you should thank God to be rid of him. 

You need to get some counseling because it sounds like your divorce has totally broken your spirit. One more thing if you are overweight and feel unattractive like I believe you wrote, then go get some exercise because it will help with your depression as well.

I bet even he wouldn't say he settled like you are saying. 

Please get some help.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Hellomynameis said:


> I married for love. At 19 years old I didn't have the experience to know how important it was to have chemistry/strong physical attraction. He was a bright young rising star grad student at our uni - football player, high ranking in student government, on his way to a promising academic career. I thought he was wonderful. Was head over heels after only 2 weeks - enough so that I even violated my teenage purity pledge to hold onto him. Even risked my parents disowning me to move in with him after only 2 months dating. What foolish mistakes youth and inexperience make.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Interesting. In my area most don't marry in their 20s or if they do it's very late 20's. Most have kids later. I really don't know the divorce stats though among this group.

About marriage - what's the alternative? Video games, hanging out with guys and drunk dialing a FWB when the mood strikes? Until you hit 40 then 45 and are getting pudgy, losing your hair and are just creepy?

Or you hang out with the girls drinking wine and whatever until you get a couple hundred **** pics and half dozen booty calls then drunk dial you best / most convenient FB? Then get older and watch gravity do its number and buy all manner of clothes to keep the goods hanging correctly? And wear more makeup and drink a bit more at the pub till the balding fat dude looks good?

IDK about you but I'll take my love giggles and lifetime of companionship to enjoy the sags and extra curves and extra hair in some places and missing hair other places... the couples I know who've been together 20-30 years try to keep up appearances for each other but still - if not for the love goggles, well...

So I don't really see a strong argument NOT to find someone you can get along with for 5,6 or 7 decades by maybe I'm just not hearing the right sales pitch


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

sokillme said:


> The disconnect is it takes two to make a marriage work. In the article she makes it sound like just he was the problem. These problems were her responsibility too. I'm sure her next marriage will end up the same way. Marriage isn't a panacea for lack of happiness.


I very much agree with you.. even though I didn't address that in my post... the fact she said this in the article *" No more secrets, no more wrapping paper, no more perfect Facebook posts"*... why was she putting shining Facebook posts up when she was clearly depressed, crying every night & thinking of leaving him.. I bet her husband was a friend.. and if that isn't (AGAIN) contradictory ... the woman was speaking out of 2 sides of her mouth.. 

She probably did this A LOT in her communication... I feel men would rather have it "straight"... sit the man down and clearly lay out what YOU NEED, not throwing little hints and expecting him to read your mind.... that is the feeling I get.. maybe she just KNEW it wouldn't matter anyway... but still.. anytime I read about someone "Faking it" before others... I tend to feel they aren't very "self aware", they bottle, they hide, put on a mask, this hurts authentic communication at every turn...she likely feared confrontation /digging deep to get to the roots of their issues so they had a chance to work on it... 

Though they did have counseling.. that should have opened things up for them...

He could have been similar.. we don't know.


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## Stack (Mar 14, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I think they don't realize they are settling because they are not giving the truth. No man want's to be the safe choice if they knew they wouldn't settle for it.


Absolutely. Men don't want to be the consolation prize... Mr. Congeniality. 
Most men have no idea... when that's what they are to her.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Stack said:


> Helen Smith (2013): Men on Strike: Why Men Are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood, and the American Dream - and Why It Matters
> 
> _American society has become anti-male. Men are sensing the backlash and are consciously and unconsciously going “on strike.” *They are dropping out of college, leaving the workforce and avoiding marriage and fatherhood at alarming rates. *The trend is so pronounced that a number of books have been written about this “man-child” phenomenon, concluding that men have taken a vacation from responsibility simply because they can. But why should men participate in a system that seems to be increasingly stacked against them?
> 
> As Men on Strike demonstrates, men aren’t dropping out because they are stuck in arrested development. They are instead acting rationally in response to the lack of incentives society offers them to be responsible fathers, husbands and providers. In addition, men are going on strike, either consciously or unconsciously, because they do not want to be injured by the myriad of laws, attitudes and hostility against them for the crime of happening to be male in the twenty-first century._


This is the statement I was referencing.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

"Men on Strike" ridiculous. Opportunities abound; if you have the gumption and drive to grab them. This smacks of the "blue collar mentality" - there's always a boss on yer ass, keeping you down. Very much victim-speak. I don't get it - who do you think you're hurting if you choose not to achieve anything?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Stack (Mar 14, 2016)

Hellomynameis said:


> He was a bright young rising star grad student at our uni - football player, high ranking in student government, on his way to a promising academic career. I thought he was wonderful. Was head over heels after only 2 weeks - enough so that I even violated my teenage purity pledge to hold onto him. Even risked my parents disowning me to move in with him after only 2 months dating.


It sounds like he was _IT_ for you and that's he's still _IT_ for you. It stinks when that isn't reciprocated. But, you knew he had options and you weren't his first choice, hence the violation of your purity pledge and risking the relationship with your parents to hold on to him. Women don't do those things for just any guy. I'm sure you hoped that he would eventually see you like he saw the other girl...



> At 19 years old I didn't have the experience to know how important it was to have chemistry/strong physical attraction. He on the other hand knew EXACTLY what he was doing. As a matter of fact he was initially using me to try to make her jealous.


And you didn't know? Come on, you knew. One of the biggest mistakes women make is thinking... men think like women. We don't. You slept with him. You moved in. You locked him down. There had to be flags, that you ignored and dismissed, along the way because this was the guy you wanted.

You previously said, _"I was attracted to him intellectually and emotionally but not physically. I thought 2 out of 3 was good enough. I was wrong. We had no chemistry."_ Consider me confused. Can a woman be head-over-heels without the physical attraction? Can a woman violate her purity pledge without physical attraction? Men are incapable of repeatedly having sex with someone they don't find sexually attractive. We are way too visual. 



> He told me later that when we took our wedding vows he tacked on "until I find someone better" under his breath at the end.


He may have said that to you, but I highly, highly doubt it's true. It's not in our nature to endure unhappiness or pain or a broken relationship. Complaining is not enough. Venting is not enough. We fix sh*t. That's what we do, or try to do; whether we're good at it...

Again, it stinks to not have someone love you they way you love them.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

TX-SC said:


> I very much agree with this. After 21 years of marriage, my wife and I have changed significantly. She and I both have matured so much. She was 22 when we married and is 43 now. I was 27 then and 48 now. That's a whole lot of growing and changing. However, our love is STRONGER now than when we met. Why?
> 
> The answer is simple, we grew, we adapted, we loved each other as we changed. Neither has felt "trapped" and neither has cheated.
> 
> ...


 I am so dismayed by what I see in our world today....not so much in our smaller town.. but coming to this forum, what's on TV, it's all taking a huge hit , the influences have turned everything upside down... I'm very old fashioned in comparison .... I especially enjoy watching an old movie when men treated women like ladies.. when women acted like ladies who longed to find their soul mate, settle down & raise a family... if I speak like this, even here...often I am reminded.. this is NOT want women always wanted , it was just a "cultural expectation"... as for marriage...good riddance today! ...and not having sex with various suitors, a "cultural restraint"..

I never felt this way.. . I seriously wanted to find the love of my life...and it meant something to me - to wait for that special man (if it meant nothing to him.. he wouldn't have been right for me).. I so wanted to settle down, build a family together and grow old together... our sons also believe in marriage.. none are the type to sleep around... I hate to say they are not normal for our society today, but it's true...with the changes.. it's making it more difficult to find women with a similar world view. 

I have read article after article how Monogamy is not our nature.. so why fight it.. and how affairs are GOOD for marriages even.. 









I started watching this the other day... 



 ... talks about how to get over your insecurities , jealousies at 15.50...



> *"Monogamish"* meaning that the couple is in a committed partnership that is socially pair-bonded but has an agreement that partners can engage in some level of outside sexual activity. Not to be confused with polyamorous relationships, which involve committed partnerships that are socially non-monogamous.



THIS IS the NEW NORM... and websites like this.. Openminded.com




> Society has come to a point where marriage has taken a downward turn because it no longer satisfies the needs of the modern woman or man. In search of happiness, people are relying less on stereotypical gender roles and traditional relationship paradigms. While monogamy is certainly not dead, a shift in societal ideals has taken place, as more and more couples are choosing to buck traditions in favor of unconventional relationship configurations.
> 
> For many, ‘monogamy’ is almost synonymous with ‘monotony’, which can lead lesser men (and women) to cheat. But that is not the only way to get what you want. Consider these:
> 
> ...


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## Stack (Mar 14, 2016)

TheTruthHurts said:


> "Men on Strike" ridiculous. Opportunities abound; if you have the gumption and drive to grab them. This smacks of the "blue collar mentality" - there's always a boss on yer ass, keeping you down. Very much victim-speak. I don't get it - who do you think you're hurting if you choose not to achieve anything?


It's accurate though. Studies have repeatedly shown young men are under performing academically and economically. The phenomenon is witnessed across all demographics. It's not that they're motivated and want to excel, but can't. The findings suggest, young men aren't motivated and have no desire to pursue the traditional goals society has defined: college, marriage, family, home ownership, career, etc. What's most concerning is... in households where boys are under performing, their sisters are excelling.


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## Stack (Mar 14, 2016)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I have read article after article how Monogamy is not our nature.. so why fight it.. and how affairs are GOOD for marriages even... I started watching this the other day... Monogamish: The new rules of marriage | Jessica O'Reilly | TEDx  ... talks about how to get over your insecurities , jealousies at 15.50...
> 
> THIS IS the NEW NORM... and websites like this.. Openminded.com


The Feminist goal is to remove all constraints on female sexuality while restricting male sexuality. This whole movement will fail. This "New Norm" will never work because: 

1) Attractive women are rarely feminists. 
2) Women need to be validated by men, they say they don’t, they do. 
3) Women say they have each other’s back and their best interest at heart. They don’t.
4) Women are way too catty, back biting, and competitive about everything.
5) Women are too insecure to share men. (See Sisterwives, they are a mess).
6) You cannot change human biology. 

If feminism satisfied women and made them happy, we’d have a world of happy and satisfied women. It doesn’t, and we don’t. Women want families. Women want to be mothers. Women want security.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Stack said:


> Absolutely. Men don't want to be the consolation prize... Mr. Congeniality.
> Most men have no idea... when that's what they are to her.


Yep, there is a great difference from.

_My dreams of my youth of marring James Dean were just silly dreams of kid and I would hate being married to a guy like that really. Time to invest in an adult relationship._

And

_I will never marry James Dean but this guy is nice to me and has a good job so he will have to do... for now._

The first one is the wisdom of maturity that everyone needs to get to. Even James Dean wasn't James Dean. Dude was gay.

The second one is the kind of thinking that leads to these 30/40/50 year-olds acting like adolescents.


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## Stack (Mar 14, 2016)

WorkingWife said:


> Lastly - I don't get the title of this thread. Why would this one woman's divorce and that one author's lame writing make younger guys want to not get married? Are you suggesting that attitude is prevalent and most young guys believe that most women consider husbands disposable? I do think there is some of that attitude in our culture today but I think it's gender neutral. I think most young guys who don't want to get married don't want to do it because they really don't have to. They can get easy sex, or just masturbate to porn, with no commitment and no responsibility. Pretty soon they'll be able to get a sexbot who will never complain about anything. Why put up with a needy wife?


Why would this article cause men to hesitate marrying? It's not just one article. The article is just another confirmation of the culture.

NYT | Husbands Are Deadlier Than Terrorists

The Duluth Model... philosophy and goals.

The College Rape Culture... stats don't support the propaganda and yet it's still advertised to be accurate.

Because there are no guys... Jayne Dallas, a senior, grumbled [about] the population of male undergraduates. “Out of the [male undergrads], there are maybe 20 percent that we would consider, and out of those 20, 10 have girlfriends, so all the girls are fighting over that other 10 percent.”

EDIT: The Duke Men’s Project... 


It's not one article... just to be clear.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I feel men would rather have it "straight"... sit the man down and clearly lay out what YOU NEED, not throwing little hints and expecting him to read your mind....


One thing I want to say about this. This is not a criticism of you SA at all many people act this way.

But -- 

It seems like there is this thought out there that there is a higher level of communication done by women to not give it "straight" to kind of beat around the bush and the husband will eventually get it. Like this is some failing of men that they don't get the subtleties of how women communicate or something. This idea is a fallacy and bull ****. Passive aggressive people communicate this way, and that makes them bad communicators both men and women. This kind of communication is not some kind of feminine mystique. The women who do this are the same kind of people as the kind of men who are described in the book "No more Mr. Nice Guy" that is recommend a lot on here and elsewhere. Making unspoken deals with their partner and not articulating what they want and need. Celebrating communicating like this as being the apex or even normal is lazy and it needs to stop. (not saying you are doing that but lots of women do.)


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## Hellomynameis (Dec 16, 2016)

Stack said:


> It sounds like he was _IT_ for you and that's he's still _IT_ for you. It stinks when that isn't reciprocated. But, you knew he had options and you weren't his first choice, hence the violation of your purity pledge and risking the relationship with your parents to hold on to him. Women don't do those things for just any guy. I'm sure you hoped that he would eventually see you like he saw the other girl...
> 
> 
> I didn't know about the ex fiancé. I didn't find out about her until after we split up. Turns out he'd been sleeping with her almost our whole marriage with the exception of 5 years we spent out of state during which time he was screwing his colleagues and his students (he was a uni prof). I had NO idea I was nothing but a consolation prize. And no, he's not still it for me. The man walked out on me while I was lying on our kitchen floor in cardiac arrest. He would have let me die - in fact he told me later that he wished I had. He abandoned me with a 2 month old baby while I was still in the hospital. For the ex fiancé by the way. He hasn't visited his son in 7 years. The only feelings I have for him now are hatred and disgust. If he died I wouldn't go to the funeral.
> ...


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## Stack (Mar 14, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Yep, there is a great difference from.
> 
> 1)_My dreams of my youth of marring James Dean were just silly dreams of kid and I would hate being married to a guy like that really. Time to invest in an adult relationship._
> 
> ...


It's been my contention that MOST females don't get past the dream/fantasy guy and then, when they can't lockdowm their version of the James Dean fantasy, they move on to the "he's nice, has a good job, will be a good father, etc." even though the sexual attraction is minimal, if present at all. 

Am I mistaken? Way off the reservation?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

sokillme said:


> We need better paternity fraud laws no doubt and mandatory DNA testing at birth, but men have to be strong enough to demand it, and not let them shame us about it.
> 
> My solution for paternity fraud and support is the father pays until the kid is and adult, so that I don't have to pay with my taxes but then the mother has to repay with interest in restitution. And the wages can be forfeited and assets ceased just like any other default parent, with possible criminal penalties and jail time. This seems like a decent compromise. It will also give her some motivation to go after the real father.


I think it should be a criminal offense.. Never forget watching a 20/20 many years ago.. long before coming here.. I was seriously SHOCKED and horrified that a father learned 2 of his 3 sons were not his.. ..he would have never learned this if one of them didn't need genetic testing, can't remember why...here his wife had a lover... then he learned there was NOTHING that could be done.. his name was on the birth certificates...even divorcing her... he had to pay, while she went to her lover.... I was outraged watching that.. then she'd talk shaming him how he didn't care about his children.. like he had no right to be inflamed over this.. it's the deepest of betrayals...

It baffles me why this hasn't happened yet in a society rampant with casual partners & so many who lie, there is more hooking up over "exclusive dating" anymore ...many won't even disclose the sexual partner before a new relationship, if a woman finds herself pregnant early on.. who could trust this?? 

I have the book  Men On Strike - Why Men Are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood, and the American Dream - and Why It Matters

It address why men have been slow to fight back...Helen Smith writes:


> In fact, Men have known that a backlash against them has been happening for decades, so why is it taking so long for men to fight back? Psychologist Warren Farrell, in his prophetic book "The Myth of Male Power", written in 1993, talks about "the men's movement as an evolutionary shift" and says the movement will be "the most incremental of movements" because it is "hard to confront the feelings we've learned to repress and hard to confront the women we've learned to protect"..
> 
> Farrell believes that the greatest challenge of the men's movement will be "getting men to ask for help for _themselves_. Men were always able to ask for help _on behalf of others_ -for a congregation , their wives, or a cause -_but not for themselves_


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I am so dismayed by what I see in our world today....not so much in our smaller town.. but coming to this forum, what's on TV, it's all taking a huge hit , the influences have turned everything upside down... I'm very old fashioned in comparison .... I especially enjoy watching an old movie when men treated women like ladies.. when women acted like ladies who longed to find their soul mate, settle down & raise a family... if I speak like this, even here...often I am reminded.. this is NOT want women always wanted , it was just a "cultural expectation"... as for marriage...good riddance today! ...and not having sex with various suitors, a "cultural restraint"..
> 
> I never felt this way.. . I seriously wanted to find the love of my life...and it meant something to me - to wait for that special man (if it meant nothing to him.. he wouldn't have been right for me).. I so wanted to settle down, build a family together and grow old together... our sons also believe in marriage.. none are the type to sleep around... I hate to say they are not normal for our society today, but it's true...with the changes.. it's making it more difficult to find women with a similar world view.
> 
> ...


I don't get the purpose of marriage if you are going to behave this way. If it is all about pooling resources and not about sex then I could probably have more resources with one of my male friends. If it is about babies then shouldn't the whole thing be about babies. Behaving this way is putting them in danger. 

There are a whole lot of things today though that people think are wisdom but are really just speaking out of there ass. If that woman looked like Roseann Bar she wouldn't be speaking at TEDx away. Lets be real here.

And having lots of sexual partner ain't going to satisfy the needs of a modern woman either. But they will learn the hard way. Then they will look for that true bond, going to be harder to find at that point. 

The answer is no one is satisfied that is the human condition. The idea that we can be is the philosophical belief that needs to change, not monogamy. The fight against our nature that modern society needs to give up on is that "I can have it all" and that "I deserve to be happy". That is a real fight against nature that doesn't work.


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## Stack (Mar 14, 2016)

sokillme said:


> One thing I want to say about this. This is not a criticism of you SA at all many people act this way.
> 
> But --
> 
> It seems like there is this thought out there that there is a higher level of communication done by women to not give it "straight" to kind of beat around the bush and the husband will eventually get it. Like this is some failing of men that they don't get the subtleties of how women communicate or something. This idea is a fallacy and bull ****. Passive aggressive people communicate this way, and that makes them bad communicators both men and women. This kind of communication is not some kind of feminine mystique. The women who do this are the same kind of people as the kind of men who are described in the book "No more Mr. Nice Guy" that is recommend a lot on here and elsewhere. Making unspoken deals with their partner and not articulating what they want and need. Celebrating communicating like this as being the apex or even normal is lazy and it needs to stop. (not saying you are doing that but lots of women do.)


If I may say so... SoKillMe... you don't strike me as a typical woman (not to offend anyone). My wife is another women who breaks the norm.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Stack said:


> It's accurate though. Studies have repeatedly shown young men are under performing academically and economically. The phenomenon is witnessed across all demographics. It's not that they're motivated and want to excel, but can't. The findings suggest, young men aren't motivated and have no desire to pursue the traditional goals society has defined: college, marriage, family, home ownership, career, etc. What's most concerning is... in households where boys are under performing, their sisters are excelling.


Who's raising these boys? Where is the father, what is the philosophical beliefs of the mother. Red pill and the like is not the answer though. In this case Red Pill is pacifism. Men have to assert more influence.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

sokillme said:


> One thing I want to say about this. This is not a criticism of you SA at all many people act this way.
> 
> But --
> 
> It seems like there is this thought out there that there is a higher level of communication done by women to not give it "straight" to kind of beat around the bush and the husband will eventually get it. Like this is some failing of men that they don't get the subtleties of how women communicate or something. This idea is a fallacy and bull ****. Passive aggressive people communicate this way, and that makes them bad communicators both men and women. This kind of communication is not some kind of feminine mystique. The women who do this are the same kind of people as the kind of men who are described in the book "No more Mr. Nice Guy" that is recommend a lot on here and elsewhere. Making unspoken deals with their partner and not articulating what they want and need. Celebrating communicating like this as being the apex or even normal is lazy and it needs to stop. (not saying you are doing that but lots of women do.)


I was gong comment along these lines. I have seen it said repeatedly by some women on TAM, that they told him, but he just didn't get it, so she had no choice since her needs were not being met. I understand that there are some men who probably don't get it or even care even when the message is received. But I would wager, that nine times out of ten the message is never received. The so called great communicators and keepers of the relationship often times fail to communicate effectively to the man in their life. In the mean time, there are plenty of men out there doing their very best to meet the APPARENT needs of their spouse (not saying women don't make the same effort). In the end they (the men) end up alone, separate from their children, trying to figure out what went wrong when they had done everything that they thought had been expected of them. And then society doubles down on their punishment by imposing restrictive visitation and burdensome support obligations for them having "failed" at their marriage.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Stack said:


> It's been my contention that MOST females don't get past the dream/fantasy guy and then, when they can't lockdowm their version of the James Dean fantasy, they move on to the "he's nice, has a good job, will be a good father, etc." even though the sexual attraction is minimal, if present at all.
> 
> Am I mistaken? Way off the reservation?


Yeah, I will say to you what I say to women on here who say "men are dogs", "all men cheat" and crap like that. You need to find a better class of women. Some women and men, have this kind of arrested development but if you know the signs they are pretty easy to spot, it's not rocket science, people have just not been given the signs. You need to lower you intake of red pills.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Stack said:


> If I may say so... SoKillMe... you don't strike me as a typical woman (not to offend anyone). My wife is another women who breaks the norm.


That would be because I am a man.


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## Stack (Mar 14, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Who's raising these boys? Where is the father, what is the philosophical beliefs of the mother. Red pill and the like is not the answer though. In this case Red Pill is pacifism. Men have to assert more influence.


This is consistent across all demographics, to include two parent households, both college grads to single parent with no higher education. They are baffled. One theory suggests... that we are witnessing the affects of a full generation of boys who have been medicated for ADHD for most of their lives. Couple medically suppressing their natural biology with punishing them for their "male behavior" once they enter school... some speculate their apathy and lack of engagement/motivation (aka checking out) are learned behaviors to navigate what they see as a "hostile" environment.


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## Stack (Mar 14, 2016)

sokillme said:


> That would be because I am a man.


That explains it... should have checked your profile. My mistake.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Stack said:


> This is consistent across all demographics, to include two parent households, both college grads to single parent with no higher education. They are baffled. One theory suggests... that we are witnessing the affects of a full generation of boys who have been medicated for ADHD for most of their lives. Couple medically suppressing their natural biology with punishing them for their "male behavior" once they enter school... some speculate their apathy and lack of engagement/motivation (aka checking out) are learned behaviors to navigate what they see as a "hostile" environment.


The scarier thing is maybe these boys have just gotten it sooner.


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## Stack (Mar 14, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Yeah, I will say to you what I say to women on here who say "men are dogs", "all men cheat" and crap like that. You need to find a better class of women. Some women and men, have this kind of arrested development but if you know the signs they are pretty easy to spot, it's not rocket science, people have just not been given the signs. You need to lower you intake of red pills.


Are you saying I'm writing about my experience... my personal experience with my wife? Rather pretentious of you. 

Red pills? No. I'll explain, not that I should. My journey to learn about the female social dynamic started because I'm a father who has daughters. One day, I dropped my daughter off at her middle school and watched her walk past her friends standing on the steps. Her friends did not acknowledge her either. My wife said that was girls being girls. That was seven years ago. Since then, I have made a concerted effort to understand women better.

I don't need a better class of woman. Have a coke and a smile...


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Really? Wouldn't these bolded reasons be reason enough to stay?



Stack said:


> Go, even though *you love him.*
> Go, even though *he is kind and faithful and dear to you.*
> Go, even though *he’s your best friend and you’re his.*
> Go, even though *you can’t imagine your life without him.*
> ...


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

So, as I read through this thread, it seems like the OP is basically saying that women are always messing up a good thing (because this is part of being a woman), while men are sitting there as victims of women. lol

If you read some threads on here about infidelity, some men...many men, have messed up a good thing. 

I believe that everyone needs to have agency, and take responsibility for the things they can change, the things they do in a relationship. That's the only way it will work. One's gender doesn't automatically make someone less or more capable of doing that.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

sokillme said:


> One thing I want to say about this. This is not a criticism of you SA at all many people act this way.
> 
> But --
> 
> It seems like there is this thought out there that there is a higher level of communication done by women to not give it "straight" to kind of beat around the bush and the husband will eventually get it. Like this is some failing of men that they don't get the subtleties of how women communicate or something. This idea is a fallacy and bull ****. Passive aggressive people communicate this way, and that makes them bad communicators both men and women. This kind of communication is not some kind of feminine mystique. *The women who do this are the same kind of people as the kind of men who are described in the book "No more Mr. Nice Guy" that is recommend a lot on here and elsewhere. * Making unspoken deals with their partner and not articulating what they want and need. Celebrating communicating like this as being the apex or even normal is lazy and it needs to stop. (not saying you are doing that but lots of women do.)


Did you know they have a book for the woman too ? >> Why Men Love *****es: From Doormat to Dreamgirl - A Woman's Guide to Holding Her Own in a Relationship 

I enjoy getting to the root of things, I can be a "confronter"..... I've read articles about "passive aggressive" behaviors.. I'd not have the patience for this... I NEED to have intimate conversations, to understand my partner, where he is at (the good bad & the ugly), and I need to be understood, and accepted for my flaws & imperfections too...so we can find common ground, it's no good if one is happy.. and the other is not...

In our marriage, it's more my husband who is passive in this regard- though not passive aggressive...I can't say I've experienced that... but he has been known to throw "hints" that have flown completely over my head... feeling I "should have known"... 

In our past... we did miss each other more than should have been as he wasn't as forthcoming with his needs (basically more sex.. his only complaint).... ME... this just wouldn't happen.. I go after what I want, there is no misreading me... I also will go out of my way to accommodate him...so we're both happy.. it just wouldn't be OK if I was the satisfied Princess where he was gritting his teeth... that would be AWFUL and would get old real fast !! 

Inadvertently I have hurt my husband due to his NOT coming forth, expressing his craving / his want...he's certainly gotten better here, after we opened the sex dialog & realized how we missed each other (a shame for us both!).... So yeah... I love it when he now tells me what for! I want his truth.. still don't want to be rejected.. but any time he's had a legitimate excuse.. it was a darn good one .. and reasonable...we'd surely give ourselves an enthusiastic rain check.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Stack said:


> Why would this article cause men to hesitate marrying? It's not just one article. The article is just another confirmation of the culture.
> 
> NYT | Husbands Are Deadlier Than Terrorists
> 
> ...


I see your point. There definitely is anti-male bias in our culture right now. What's been happening on college campuses is beyond the pale. If a female gets drunk, she's not responsible for her actions and she has sex she can't remember, she has been raped. But if a guy gets drunk he's 100% responsible for his actions and if he has sex with the girl with whom he got drunk, he's a predator rapist, college is over for him, he has no rights, no ability to defend himself. (If I was a guy in college and I was accused of something I would tell them I self-identify as a woman so I am actually the victim.)

It's unreal that this is happening to citizens with supposed constitutional rights in America.

However, I'm not convince that is why fewer guys want to _*marry*_. Not all women are hostile to men, some really really really want to find a good guy, but are finding men simply do not want to commit to one woman and/or marriage. And there is little to no societal pressure to get married to have a family.

I think the problems with how men are treated and devalued starts way before college age. There is an attitude in elementary school and possibly even before that, that "boys" are "inferior" by nature - they're louder, more hyper, less focused when young, competitive (horror of horrors!), aggressive, and mature slower than girls. Starting in Kindergarten many get the message that who they are intrinsically is not desirable. The girls are behaving the way the teachers prefer - quiet, less confrontational, more studious, cooperative instead of competitive... I believe many boys withdraw and lose ambition.

By the time we get to college age - we now have more women in college than men. A lot of women who do marry end up being the bread winner now. Many guys seem to stay perpetual adolescents. Many of these Millennials don't have jobs and don't seem to care (don't know if that's more male than female though).


----------



## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

Ynot said:


> I was gong comment along these lines. I have seen it said repeatedly by some women on TAM, that they told him, but he just didn't get it, so she had no choice since her needs were not being met. I understand that there are some men who probably don't get it or even care even when the message is received. But I would wager, that nine times out of ten the message is never received. The so called great communicators and keepers of the relationship often times fail to communicate effectively to the man in their life. In the mean time, there are plenty of men out there doing their very best to meet the APPARENT needs of their spouse (not saying women don't make the same effort). In the end they (the men) end up alone, separate from their children, trying to figure out what went wrong when they had done everything that they thought had been expected of them. And then society doubles down on their punishment by imposing restrictive visitation and burdensome support obligations for them having "failed" at their marriage.


I agree with this. Most of the divorced men that I know were victims of this type of "Read My Mind" communication and then blindsided by infidelity. My situation was even worse. Not only was I expected to be a mind reader. I was the one who was trying to engage her in meaningful and intimate conversation in order to be a better husband. I was constantly being reassured that everything was great and she loved me. Obviously she lied.

Yep, I'm alone now and I'll never get married again. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what the hell happened, what I did wrong and what I could have done better. It's really tough when you go through a life killing experience like that and walk away without learning a damn thing except not to trust. All of the men I know were also summarily punished by the system. They only get to see their kids half the time, they loose half of everything they worked their asses off for, and they get their confidence and self esteem destroyed. To add insult to injury, they must pay a hefty monthly fine to their XWWs for failing their marriage.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Stack said:


> Are you saying I'm writing about my experience... my personal experience with my wife? Rather pretentious of you.
> 
> Red pills? No. I'll explain, not that I should. My journey to learn about the female social dynamic started because I'm a father who has daughters. One day, I dropped my daughter off at her middle school and watched her walk past her friends standing on the steps. Her friends did not acknowledge her either. My wife said that was girls being girls. That was seven years ago. Since then, I have made a concerted effort to understand women better.
> 
> I don't need a better class of woman. Have a coke and a smile...


I am staying that the "Most" in your quote is too strong. Though I am in my 40's so maybe it's true today. The zeitgeist doesn't help.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Ynot said:


> I was gong comment along these lines. I have seen it said repeatedly by some women on TAM, that they told him, but he just didn't get it, so she had no choice since her needs were not being met. I understand that there are some men who probably don't get it or even care even when the message is received. But I would wager, that nine times out of ten the message is never received. The so called great communicators and keepers of the relationship often times fail to communicate effectively to the man in their life. In the mean time, there are plenty of men out there doing their very best to meet the APPARENT needs of their spouse (not saying women don't make the same effort). In the end they (the men) end up alone, separate from their children, trying to figure out what went wrong when they had done everything that they thought had been expected of them. And then society doubles down on their punishment by imposing restrictive visitation and burdensome support obligations for them having "failed" at their marriage.


This post deserves a gold star. You hear so much on here where women say I was unhappy and I told my H over and over again I wasn't and since he "didn't get it" I divorced him. I bet in alot of these instances the message was never received and the men thought they were meeting the needs of their wife. He starts as a husband, father, home owner and family bread winner to in an instant becoming a lonely bum whose children were wrongfully taken from him. Younger men see this happen to their fathers and friends and don't want the same thing to happen to them. Meanwhile younger women who want to marry these younger men are left wanting relationships without men wanting to make a commitment to them.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Stack said:


> The Feminist goal is to remove all constraints on female sexuality while restricting male sexuality. This whole movement will fail. This "New Norm" will never work because:
> 
> *1) Attractive women are rarely feminists.
> 2) Women need to be validated by men, they say they don’t, they do.
> ...


What a bunch of horse****.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

I believe men and women need one another. Women don't need validation from men anymore than men need it from women. So tired of the whole men vs women way of thinking. I'm not a feminist, but why can't people just treat each other as individuals, and not view them solely from a gender perspective? Saying all women are catty, is like saying all men are sexist.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Decimated said:


> I agree with this. Most of the divorced men that I know were victims of this type of "Read My Mind" communication and then blindsided by infidelity. My situation was even worse. Not only was I expected to be a mind reader. I was the one who was trying to engage her in meaningful and intimate conversation in order to be a better husband. I was constantly being reassured that everything was great and she loved me. *Obviously she lied*.
> 
> Yep, I'm alone now and I'll never get married again. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what the hell happened, what I did wrong and what I could have done better. It's really tough when you go through a life killing experience like that and walk away without learning a damn thing except not to trust. All of the men I know were also summarily punished by the system. They only get to see their kids half the time, they loose half of everything they worked their asses off for, and they get their confidence and self esteem destroyed. To add insult to injury, they must pay a hefty monthly fine to their XWWs for failing their marriage.


Yep, I know how that is. The reason I married my wife was based on nothing more than a fricken bold faced lie. All this has taught me is to never never trust. Now I have to choose between a rotten marriage and living like a bum the rest of my life. I worked my ass off through college and through a decent career all to be able to make that choice. What a life men have these days.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> I believe men and women need one another. Women don't need validation from men anymore than men need it from women. So tired of the whole men vs women way of thinking. I'm not a feminist, but why can't people just treat each other as individuals, and not view them solely from a gender perspective? Saying all women are catty, is like saying all men are sexist.


Be honest all straight people want, dare I say need validation from the opposite sex.  I mean lets be real here, this is the human condition. 

The rest I agree with. Though there are some differences I really don't think character is one of them. Good people and bad people has no Gender.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Be honest all straight people want, dare I say need validation from the opposite sex.


I thought I said that. lol 0 I said it differently. Meaning, that women and men both need it from each other. It's not just a woman-thing. And we don't need it from men in general. Only the men we desire. lol Just like men like to be validated by those women they desire. Not liking the word validate, but I know what we're saying lol


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jb02157 said:


> This post deserves a gold star. You hear so much on here where women say I was unhappy and I told my H over and over again I wasn't and since he "didn't get it" I divorced him. I bet in alot of these instances the message was never received and the men thought they were meeting the needs of their wife. He starts as a husband, father, home owner and family bread winner to in an instant becoming a lonely bum whose children were wrongfully taken from him. Younger men see this happen to their fathers and friends and don't want the same thing to happen to them. Meanwhile younger women who want to marry these younger men are left wanting relationships without men wanting to make a commitment to them.


Good grief. This is such a distorted picture.


Today, most younger men and women do not get married at a young age because they are working on building their education, career and financial status. By the early 30's most men and women today are married. 

The divorce rate is the highest in couples in which the woman is under 25 and the man under 30. Young folks today know that. So they await until they are stable. If the woman is over 25 and the man is over 30, the divorce rate goes way down... if the woman has a college degree, the divorce rate falls to about 25%. The more education both spouses have , the lover the divorce rate... even lower than 25%.

This is not about how awful women are. It's about stability and maturity. Having stability and maturity is the biggest contributor to a lower divorce rate.


About 70% of all married women work. About 50% of married women today earn as much or more than their husbands. So only about 30% of men to day are the sole breadwinner. this whole idea that all the assets in a marriage really belong to the man is beyond ridiculous. It completely igores the financial and other things that a woman beings to the marriage.

Most courts today try to get custody arrangements as close to 50% as possible. Since divorce laws are gender neutral, if the two parties have similar incomes, there will be no or very little child support.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jb02157 said:


> Yep, I know how that is. The reason I married my wife was based on nothing more than a fricken bold faced lie. All this has taught me is to never never trust. Now I have to choose between a rotten marriage and living like a bum the rest of my life. I worked my ass off through college and through a decent career all to be able to make that choice. What a life men have these days.


Yea, I had that happen to me with two marriages. In both cases I married my husbands based on nothing more than their bold faced lies. All this has taught me is to never never trust. I hd to choose between rotten marriages and living like a bum the rest of my life. I worked my ass off through college and through a decent career all to be able to make that choice. What a life WOMEN have these days.

This is what gets me about this entire thread. The thread is little more than a sexist rant against women. The fact is that women get into bad martial situations about as often as men do.

The difference between you and me is that once I realized what was going on, I divorced. I did that before I would get stuck with things like spousal support. And yes with being the bread winner in both marriages I could have been stuck with it had I waited to divorce.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> And women wonder why younger men aren't interested in marriage
> 
> LOL... one woman does something and apparently it means all women are not good?
> 
> Maybe we could also find stories about men who mistreat their wives ... after all that happens too.


What is this mistreatment by men that you speak of?!?


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Good grief. This is such a distorted picture.
> 
> 
> Today, most younger men and women do not get married at a young age because they are working on building their education, career and financial status. By the early 30's most men and women today are married.
> ...


No it's actually quite accurate. Despite your facts and figures the fact is that young men ARE seeing what happens to divorced men and deciding not to get married. Maybe that's why the divorce rate is lower for those over 25 to 30, they aren't getting married.


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## Stack (Mar 14, 2016)

WorkingWife said:


> I see your point. There definitely is anti-male bias in our culture right now. What's been happening on college campuses is beyond the pale. If a female gets drunk, she's not responsible for her actions and she has sex she can't remember, she has been raped. But if a guy gets drunk he's 100% responsible for his actions and if he has sex with the girl with whom he got drunk, he's a predator rapist, college is over for him, he has no rights, no ability to defend himself. (If I was a guy in college and I was accused of something I would tell them I self-identify as a woman so I am actually the victim.)


The false rape claims, eg UVA, Duke, Minnesota, Kobe, etc... are a great disservice to those women who have been raped.



> However, I'm not convince that is why fewer guys want to _*marry*_. Not all women are hostile to men, some really really really want to find a good guy, but are finding men simply do not want to commit to one woman and/or marriage. And there is little to no societal pressure to get married to have a family.


It is a significant factor. The availability of porn isn't helping. Men understand the risk of the legal system (including divorce and custody) overwhelming favors the female. Men hear that women are looking for a good man, but Tinder says otherwise. Men also hear they are losers living in their mom's basement getting high and playing video games. The also hear women say they don't need a man and they can perform the man's role in the family. 



> I think the problems with how men are treated and devalued starts way before college age. There is an attitude in elementary school and possibly even before that, that "boys" are "inferior" by nature - they're louder, more hyper, less focused when young, competitive (horror of horrors!), aggressive, and mature slower than girls. Starting in Kindergarten many get the message that who they are intrinsically is not desirable. The girls are behaving the way the teachers prefer - quiet, less confrontational, more studious, cooperative instead of competitive... I believe many boys withdraw and lose ambition.


Most boys don't feel inferior. My son doesn't. His friends don't. It's a biological fact that boys develop slower then girls. At 5-yrs, the age children typically enter kindergarten, boys read at a 2-3yr-old level relative to girls. Boys are way behind the social curve relative to girls. I think it takes more time to close the gap. I would argue that is why, with couples, men are usually older then the women. Anecdotally, my daughter, 20yrs, college student, has the same complaints about boys. She has given up on guys her age... and now is dating a guy who is 26, driven, ambitious, and has a vision for what he wants. 



> By the time we get to college age - we now have more women in college than men. A lot of women who do marry end up being the bread winner now. Many guys seem to stay perpetual adolescents. Many of these Millennials don't have jobs and don't seem to care (don't know if that's more male than female though).


Most men do have jobs. Low wage jobs. Dead end jobs. Jobs that let them pursue other interests. Women want men who are career oriented, hence the "they don't have jobs' mantra. I think the following encapsulates most males of this generation:

_Noah Patterson, 18, a Web designer, likes to sit in front of several screens simultaneously: a work project, a YouTube clip, a video game. To shut it all down for a date OR even a one-night stand seems like a waste. “For an average date, you’re going to spend at least two hours... two hours I won’t be doing something I enjoy.” It’s not that he doesn’t like women. “I enjoy their companionship, but it’s not a significant part of life.” He has never had sex, although he likes porn. “I’d rather be watching YouTube videos and making money.” Sex, he said, is “not going to be something people ask me for on my résumé.”_


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> The difference between you and me is that once I realized what was going on, I divorced. I did that before I would get stuck with things like spousal support. And yes with being the bread winner in both marriages I could have been stuck with it had I waited to divorce.


...but here's the difference in the whole picture, once I realized what was going on, I couldn't get divorced. I would never be able to afford the child support, spousal suppose and having to afford a three bedroom apartment so I could see the kids every other week. 

Ele, don't get me wrong here, I don't want to pick a fight with you, I just want you to try understand why I felt I was forced into the corner I'm in. True, if I had a crystal ball and could see down the road in our marriage that it wasn't going to work I would have have gotten out before the kids came into the picture. I was a dumb kid and I was scared to make a decision like that not to mention all the pressure being put on me by the in-laws...so I didn't, I waited. Life sometimes isn't the result of clear, data based decisions. My life was based on fear driven decisions I felt forced I had to make by other people. The equation would have been different if I was a woman. I would have gotten custody of the kids and wouldn't have had to worry about child support or that the place I lived in was judged to be good enough by the courts. I could have took my half, the kids and been fine with that.


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## Stack (Mar 14, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> What a bunch of horse****.


Thanks for the concise reply.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

Problem is not marriage, but divorce. Generally, women file most of the divorces. It's pretty rare for men to file for divorce. The spouse with the more assets always lose as well. This is not right. However, if the spouse had assisted in generating these assets, then s/he should be entitled to some of those assets. More times than not, they do not. More and more pre-nups are being thrown out. Most do not want to spend $$$ the money to setup a irrevocable trust and timing is also involved. Sadly, nowadays, getting into marriage is not always for love, but to move up in the world for the lesser spouse (man or woman). The one with more assets needs to look at it as a business contact and take certain precautions and insurance. If not, the State will surely take it away from you.

I do not believe this was how marriage is supposed to be. Should be about love and building a bond, not to be well off.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Steve1000 said:


> EleGirl said:
> 
> 
> > And women wonder why younger men aren't interested in marriage
> ...


Please note that in my post, I qualified "men". I was not talking about all men. I was talking specifically about "men who mistreat their wives". Do you agree that some men do mistreat their wives?

The OP posted one story about one woman and is using it as the started for a thread that is making some pretty board statements about women as a whole. The above post of mine is to point out that yes, there are some rotten women just as there are rotten men.

Now to answer your question. "What is this mistreatment by men that you speak of?!" I'll answer it from my own marriages.

My husbands mistreated me by lying about just about everything.

My husbands mistreated me by cheating with many women.

My son's father mistreated me by being physically abusive... hitting, pushing, twisting my arms, picking me up by my neck.

My son's father mistreated me by stealing large sums of money from me and hiding him in his mother's name.

My second husband mistreated my by refusing to work, refusing to take care of his own children, refusing to do anything at all around the house. He spent his time surfing on the web, playing computer games, etc. This was mistreatment because it led to be having to do all of the financial support me, my son, and him and his children. And I also had to do everything that was needed to around the house, the yard, cooking, shopping, etc.

Those are just a few examples. Surely you know that some men mistreat their wives. (Note I have never implied that all men mistreat their wives or that it is in the nature of men to do this.) Instead the OP and some other posters on here are clearly stating some pretty mean spirited things are the nature of women.


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## Stack (Mar 14, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> Yea, I had that happen to me with two marriages. In both cases I married my husbands based on nothing more than their bold faced lies. All this has taught me is to never never trust. I hd to choose between rotten marriages and living like a bum the rest of my life. I worked my ass off through college and through a decent career all to be able to make that choice. What a life WOMEN have these days.
> 
> This is what gets me about this entire thread. The thread is little more than a sexist rant against women. The fact is that women get into bad martial situations about as often as men do.


Good for you, tightening your belt and pulling yourself out of the hole. 
The thread is little more than a sexist rant? I'd expect such a comment from a twice divorced woman. 
BTW... women initiate ~70% of all divorces. I see you have parsed that stat to make it more palatable for your narrative.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jb02157 said:


> ...but here's the difference in the whole picture, once I realized what was going on, I couldn't get divorced. I would never be able to afford the child support, spousal suppose and having to afford a three bedroom apartment so I could see the kids every other week.
> 
> Ele, don't get me wrong here, I don't want to pick a fight with you, I just want you to try understand why I felt I was forced into the corner I'm in. True, if I had a crystal ball and could see down the road in our marriage that it wasn't going to work I would have have gotten out before the kids came into the picture. I was a dumb kid and I was scared to make a decision like that not to mention all the pressure being put on me by the in-laws...so I didn't, I waited. Life sometimes isn't the result of clear, data based decisions. My life was based on fear driven decisions I felt forced I had to make by other people. The equation would have been different if I was a woman. I would have gotten custody of the kids and wouldn't have had to worry about child support or that the place I lived in was judged to be good enough by the courts. I could have took my half, the kids and been fine with that.


I get where you are coming from. Had I not noticed acted when I did, I would have been in the same situation you are in.

I feel for the situation you are in. I know women in the same situation are you in.

It's not about gender, it's about who earns the most money and who is the care giver.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Stack said:


> Good for you, tightening your belt and pulling yourself out of the hole.
> 
> The thread is little more than a sexist rant?
> 
> I'd expect such a comment from a twice divorced woman.


Insulting other members is not allowed on TAM. There are plenty of twice divorced men and women here.

I guess in your mind a woman should stay with a man who cheats on her and is physically violent just to not be judged by you?



Stack said:


> BTW... women initiate ~70% of all divorces. I see you have parsed that stat to make it more palatable for your narrative.


Yes women initiate 70% of divorce. One would think that men would initiate 50% and women would initiate 50%. So basically women initiate 20% more than would be expected.

Now why is that? It's because sometime men just leave and hope that they can just avoid the courts. So women, who are often the lower earner and the primary care giver of children file.

There are studies that show that with non-married couples, breakups are initiated about equally by men and women.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> I get where you are coming from. Had I not noticed acted when I did, I would have been in the same situation you are in.
> 
> I feel for the situation you are in. I know women in the same situation are you in.
> 
> It's not about gender, it's about who earns the most money and who is the care giver.


I agree, however, if the the person who makes the most money IS the care giver, that person would have far less a troubled life than in a situation where the person who makes the most money was not the caregiver. I think that you would agree that in 90% of divorces, the caregiver is female. In my state there's a saying, if you have breasts you get custody. So, in that sense, it is somewhat about gender.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Those are just a few examples. Surely you know that some men mistreat their wives. (Note I have never implied that all men mistreat their wives or that it is in the nature of men to do this.) Instead the OP and some other posters on here are clearly stating some pretty mean spirited things are the nature of women.


You've definitely had more than your share of mistreatment, but despite all of that, you still come across as a fair person with a healthy perspective. Yes, many countless men have mistreated their wives. We likely all know women that have been treated horribly by their husbands. My comment earlier was meant as sarcasm.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Steve1000 said:


> You've definitely had more than your share of mistreatment, but despite all of that, you still come across as a fair person with a healthy perspective. Yes, many countless men have mistreated their wives. We likely all know women that have been treated horribly by their husbands. *My comment earlier was meant as sarcasm*.


Ok.. I missed your sarcasm ... 

I agree that I am a fair person. I think that the reason for that is that I, like you and many others on here, do not paint all people of some subgroup with one broad brush.

There are some men and women are despicable people. But those individuals are soley responsible for their bad behavior and mistreatment of others.

There are also a large percentage of people who are good people only trying to do the best they can do.. that's both men and women.

It is true that when it comes to dating, I don't trust easily anymore. But really that's more a statement of me not trusting by own picker. Apparently my picker is broken. I don't trust myself when it comes to love. But then again, I'm 68 years old. I'm not going to try dating or marriage again. I'm happy with my family as it is now.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> I believe men and women need one another. Women don't need validation from men anymore than men need it from women. So tired of the whole men vs women way of thinking. I'm not a feminist, but why can't people just treat each other as individuals, and not view them solely from a gender perspective? Saying all women are catty, is like saying all men are sexist.


Very true. People tend to overly generalize.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jb02157 said:


> I agree, however, if the the person who makes the most money IS the care giver, that person would have far less a troubled life than in a situation where the person who makes the most money was not the caregiver. I think that you would agree that in 90% of divorces, the caregiver is female. In my state there's a saying, if you have breasts you get custody. So, in that sense, it is somewhat about gender.


I would guess that in most marriages, the woman is the primary care giver even if she works full time and is the primary breadwinner. It seems that most men leave that to the mother of their children. Most of the studies I've read have found this to be true.

But, more and more, states are looking at 50/50 custody. Here in NM, it is in the best interest for the children. So even if a woman is a SAHM, she's not likely to get primary custody unless her ex agrees to that. She has to go get a job anyway. 

Alimony is also very hard to get I most states now. AT most the lower income spouse gets a few years of rehabilitative alimony. So if a SAHM/D has to go to work, 50/50 makes sense.

As more and more women are earning more and more in their careers, things are changing. I know that it does not help you. But 50/50 it becoming more the norm.

I think that children need their both their parents equally. If there is a divorce 50/50 makes sense.


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## Stack (Mar 14, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> Insulting other members is not allowed on TAM. There are plenty of twice divorced men and women here.


Stating facts is an insult? Wasn't aware? Labeling the thread as "a sexist rant" isn't an insult? 



> I guess in your mind a woman should stay with a man who cheats on her and is physically violent just to not be judged by you?


Yeah, that's exactly what I said. 



> Yes women initiate 70% of divorce. One would think that men would initiate 50% and women would initiate 50%. So basically women initiate 20% more than would be expected.


That is not how math works. 70/30 = 2.33 or women initiate divorce 233% more than men.

Do you have a link to the studies showing males and females, of cohabitation, initiate separation equally?


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

@Blondilocks @EleGirl @deidre @SimplyAmorous I want to know what you think of my theory. I believe if a man is a man - talk about that later - and a woman admires and respects him and he adores and wants to cherish and provide and protect her, then the marriage will work.

The realize it's old school but it also aligns with typical male/female needs.

Are women ready to admit they want a man they can respect? Because it implies "looking up to" in some ways. And are men ready to accept they have to suck it up and cater to their women? Because it implies listening and being genuinely interested in what they say and think.

The problem here is these values are rooted in a kind of dominant / submissive stereotype if you want to see it that way. I don't - I see it as meeting needs, but I understand why this sticks in the craw of many women.

I'm interested in your take on this...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jb02157 said:


> Yep, I know how that is. The reason I married my wife was based on nothing more than a fricken bold faced lie. All this has taught me is to never never trust. Now I have to choose between a rotten marriage and living like a bum the rest of my life. I worked my ass off through college and through a decent career all to be able to make that choice. What a life men have these days.


 What was the bold faced Lie @jb02157 ? 

I can't even imagine how BITTER this could make someone...and what it does to trusting the opposite sex.. everything we go through can chip away at our Trust... 

Was there any red flags while dating .. did any family members/ friends pull you aside, sit you down to say... "Look ____ I know you think you are in love, but "_______________ " , sharing their concerns with you...feeling you were making a big mistake... 

I think people should date a long time before marrying to REALLY KNOW what another is made of.. there are so many things each of us could NOT LIVE WITH from another human being.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Stack said:


> That is not how math works. 70/30 = 2.33 or women initiate divorce 233% more than men.


I’m very much aware of how math works as I have degrees that have an emphasis in math. And I know how statistics work. Statistics can be manipulated, as you did, to prove a point while hiding the rest of the story. The ‘rest of the story is that in a normative state, since there are two people in a marriage we would expect that men and women filed for divorce equally. If there is deviation, we look at difference there is between what is going on and what is the expected. The expected is 50/50. Realty is 70/20. So the question is why do women file that 20% more and men 20% less than expected.



Stack said:


> Do you have a link to the studies showing males and females, of cohabitation, initiate separation equally?


Not anymore. If you use google you can find it.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> Ok.. I missed your sarcasm ...
> 
> I agree that I am a fair person. I think that the reason for that is that I, like you and many others on here, do not paint all people of some subgroup with one broad brush.
> 
> ...


YOUR 68!  I thought you were my age or younger.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SA,
And that was my initial point - she says: They aren't touching in bed - just using their smart phones. She craves a connection that isn't there. She has TOLD him this is not working for her. 

She used her real name and in doing so limited her ability to say: A sexless, disconnected marriage is a 'no go' for me, and THAT is why I left him.




SimplyAmorous said:


> This is what I don't understand about the article... she says this :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> I’m very much aware of how math works as I have degrees that have an emphasis in math. And I know how statistics work. Statistics can be manipulated, as you did, to prove a point while hiding the rest of the story. The ‘rest of the story is that in a normative state, since there are two people in a marriage we would expect that men and women filed for divorce equally. If there is deviation, we look at difference there is between what is going on and what is the expected. The expected is 50/50. Realty is 70/20. So the question is why do women file that 20% more and men 20% less than expected.
> 
> 
> Not anymore. If you use google you can find it.


Not sure what filing proves anyway. Maybe it says more men are willing to stay in bad marriages or more men have less expectations of what a marriage should be for them. Who knows. :yawn2:

I don't see why you guys are fighting. Why does it matter what sex it is. Some people are ****ty. (if you really want to fight, fight about how this site has to police our language like were are kindergartners).

Anyway, the one thing that can't be discounted is that Men are now starting to fall behind. But I wonder if they have climbed the corporate latter enough to learn that it is not worth it. Women haven't got the chance to be disillusioned about how career is form most people about getting up and going to a job they hate, so they can buy a bunch of stuff they really don't need. Give it time, they will give up too.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

TheTruthHurts said:


> @Blondilocks @EleGirl @deidre @SimplyAmorous I want to know what you think of my theory. I believe if a man is a man - talk about that later - and a woman admires and respects him and he adores and wants to cherish and provide and protect her, then the marriage will work.


I’m not sure what you define as “a man is a man”. I’m not sure that there is a pat definition for that. 

I believe that marriage is an equal partnership. No matter how much I am sexually attracted to a man, if I lose respect for him I lose my sexual attraction to him.

I think that respect for each other is the most important thing in a relationship. There does have to be a level of admiration as well. Cherish? That two, going both ways.
When it comes to protection, I’m not sure what that means. It gets thrown around a lot. Protect from what? Protect how? Does that mean that he locks the doors every night?

Like I said, marriage to me is an equal partnership. In every marriage, the couple decides based on their own skills, likes, dislikes, etc, they decide who does what. Also throw in life’s current circumstances. What works for one couple might not work for the next.

For example, during the great depression my grandparents both worked. But usually one had a job while the other one did not. My grandmother told me it was a blessing for them that every time one of them lost a job, the other would get a job. It was two people working together to raise a family and doing what they needed to survive.

To me, that’s what makes a marriage work…. Two people working together. It does not matter if one is the bread winner & the other is a SAHM/D or if both work. What matters is that they are in agreement and work together.


TheTruthHurts said:


> The realize it's old school but it also aligns with typical male/female needs.


I’m not sure that there really are typical male/female needs. What I have learned is that a person’s needs are dependent on circumstances. What you call ‘typical’ needs are based on marriage role expectations that come from a very different time in history.

There is a myth that men provided for women in marriage in the past. That is not true. Most people had a farm and they both worked and provided for their entire family. Sure they split the roles because men are typically physically strong and do not get pregnant, so it was better that men did the heavier labor. And women had babies and took care of those babies so women took care of the home, the farm animals, home garden, making clothing, preserving food etc. But when the crops came in, the women were right out there with the men in the field gathering the crops.

Plus, when boys got to be about 5 years old, their mother no longer was their primary care giver. They went and worked with their fathers.


TheTruthHurts said:


> Are women ready to admit they want a man they can respect? Because it implies "looking up to" in some ways. And are men ready to accept they have to suck it up and cater to their women? Because it implies listening and being genuinely interested in what they say and think.


“Are women ready to admit that they want a man they can respect?” I don’t know any woman who wants to be with a man who she cannot respect. So I don’t quite understand why you think any woman would want this.

Tell me, when a man respects a woman, does he look up to her?

I don’t think that men need to cater to woman. Have you read the books “Love Busters” and “His Needs, Her Needs”? To me that is the model of marriage. Each person has needs, while there might be some similarities within a gender, they are individual. For example, in some marriages, women are the ones wo value a good sex life more than their husband. Those are individual needs. There is nothing in that model that says that a man should “suck it put and cater to women”. I think that’s an attitude that leads to some of the threads we get here on TAM where some wife is clearly a drama queen expecting her husband to unfairly jump through hoops.

No maybe I misunderstand what you mean by “suck it up and cater”. But if you read those two books you’ll see my point of view. It’s two people with individual needs seeking to meet each other’s needs, not love bust with a huge dose of sexual energy, respect and admiration for each other.

This means that both men and women need to be listening and being genuinely interested in what the other has to say and thinks.


TheTruthHurts said:


> The problem here is these values are rooted in a kind of dominant / submissive stereotype if you want to see it that way. I don't - I see it as meeting needs, but I understand why this sticks in the craw of many women.


I do not believe in a dominate/submissive stereotype for every couple. Sure it might work for some. Others it does not work for.

For one thing, you use the words ‘look up to’. To me that’s like a little girl ‘looks up to’ her father. I don’t think that love, respect, admiration, etc. means ‘look up to’ as though the man is the ‘leader/father’ figure. I do agree with meeting needs. Why would a woman have to ‘look up to’ man like that to meet his needs? 

Again, look at the books. They explain it pretty well.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sokillme said:


> YOUR 68!  I thought you were my age or younger.


How old are you?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sokillme said:


> Not sure what filing proves anyway. Maybe it says more men are willing to stay in bad marriages or more men have less expectations of what a marriage should be for them. Who knows. :yawn2:
> 
> I don't see why you guys are fighting. Why does it matter what sex it is. Some people are ****ty. (if you really want to fight, fight about how this site has to police our language like were are kindergartners).
> 
> Anyway, the one thing that can't be discounted is that Men are now starting to fall behind. But I wonder if they have climbed the corporate latter enough to learn that it is not worth it. Women haven't got the chance to be disillusioned about how career is form most people about getting up and going to a job they hate, so they can buy a bunch of stuff they really don't need. Give it time, they will give up too.


Most men are dishonest. What you see is not what you get with most men.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> Most men are dishonest. What you see is not what you get with most men.


I am assuming you are being sarcastic right? Because now you sound exactly like that which you have just been railing against.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> How old are you?


44


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sokillme said:


> I am assuming you are being sarcastic right? Because now you sound exactly like that which you have just been railing against.


Of course I am.. I'm being evil and sarcastic. 

I copied that right out of one of the OP's posts and just changed the gender.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sokillme said:


> 44



psst... kid :nerd:


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

TheTruthHurts said:


> @Blondilocks @EleGirl @deadre I want to know what you think of my theory.* I believe if a man is a man - talk about that later - and a woman admires and respects him and he adores and wants to cherish and provide and protect her, then the marriage will work.
> 
> The realize it's old school but it also aligns with typical male/female needs.*
> 
> ...


 I see you just changed that.. thank you for asking me !! Yes... I resonate with your post.. very much... these reasons WORK FOR US, our dynamics.... 

The only switch up is...and this is purely a temperament thing.. I am naturally more dominant over him (Choleric temperament) ... he's a pretty laid back guy (read:  Phlegmatic temperament ) ..but with these differences...I still lean on him.. I look upon him as "the head"....I need his input.. we "brain storm together".. he also wants my input.... it's an equal thing. Being the way I am...I don't think I would fare well with an Alpha male who didn't include me on decisions, this would greatly bother me.. so we're a good match.. 

On the Protecting & Providing...he's always been the main breadwinner, he's a more "Traditionally minded" man and I dearly love this about him.. there is no offense taken from my end.. our hopes / vision starting out was for me to stay home with the children, if I worked.. to work around their schedules so we had the most family time together.. that's how we've lived our lives... recently I've taken a full time job... only because we fear he may get laid off, didn't want a lapse in health benefits.. so we can breathe a little easier if that happens.. 

But still... he's got far more Skills over me, and will always bring in the higher income...I've never felt looked down upon by him.. like the "little woman" so to speak, lording himself over me...he's always treated me / the kids with the utmost care, putting us first..

Sometimes I get a little down on myself, reading here with the modern woman being so career minded, ambitious .. and men want / prefer this today.....sometimes I struggle with, asking myself - "did I waste my potential?"... even though honestly that wasn't where my heart was at.. it was "for family"..... he always reminds me what I bring ... he's my greatest supporter... I married a wonderful man.. I deeply respect him.. 

This is a great book by the way, I so agree with the title..

Love & Respect: The Love She Most Desires; The Respect He Desperately Needs 

I did a write up on this book yrs ago here >> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-t...1-long-term-success-respect-your-husband.html


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Really? I see young men and women still marrying. I do think that older men tend to avoid marriage after divorce more.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

TheTruthHurts said:


> @Blondilocks @EleGirl @deidre @SimplyAmorous I want to know what you think of my theory. I believe if a man is a man - talk about that later - and a woman admires and respects him and he adores and wants to cherish and provide and protect her, then the marriage will work.
> 
> The realize it's old school but it also aligns with typical male/female needs.
> 
> ...


I believe in the Christian view of marriage, and that 'submissive' isn't a bad thing. It doesn't mean that a woman becomes a doormat in her marriage, it means that she looks up to her husband, and lets him lead her and the family. (That's actually biological too, IMO...that women want to feel secure in their marriages, with a man who knows how to take care of his family) I've always been attracted to men who lead, and not in a demeaning way, but in a naturally protective, masculine way. Admiration and respect from women to their husbands is huge, one of my grandmothers used to tell me. She passed away two years ago, and she often would tell me that when I marry, I need to look at my husband as my partner, not my competitor, as many marriages seem to be. So, to your ''theory,'' I think it has a lot of merit.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> I’m not sure what you define as “a man is a man”. I’m not sure that there is a pat definition for that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It sounds like you and I agree but use different words


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

TheTruthHurts said:


> It sounds like you and I agree but use different words


Yea, it's the different words for the same thing that often get in the way of discussion.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

*Deidre* said:


> I believe in the Christian view of marriage, and that 'submissive' isn't a bad thing.* It doesn't mean that a woman becomes a doormat in her marriage, it means that she looks up to her husband, and lets him lead her and the family.* (That's actually biological too, IMO...that women want to feel secure in their marriages, with a man who knows how to take care of his family) I've always been attracted to men who lead, and not in a demeaning way, but in a naturally protective, masculine way. Admiration and respect from women to their husbands is huge, one of my grandmothers used to tell me. She passed away two years ago, and she often would tell me that when I marry, I need to look at my husband as my partner, not my competitor, as many marriages seem to be. So, to your ''theory,'' I think it has a lot of merit.


Deidre ... if you've never seen this thread... please take a moment.. even those who are not Believers seemed to appreciate the "spirit" in which it was explained... I found it very very good myself... 

*>> * http://talkaboutmarriage.com/relationships-spirituality/61081-head-house.html


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

@TheTruthHurts
"@Blondilocks @EleGirl @deidre @SimplyAmorous I want to know what you think of my theory. I believe if a man is a man - talk about that later - and a woman admires and respects him and he adores and wants to cherish and provide and protect her, then the marriage will work.
"

My husband and I exchanged the same wedding vows: to love, honor and cherish (I requested the Reverend to omit the 'obey' on my end).
We would not have gotten to the point of taking vows if we did not have mutual respect. 

The marriage will work if both partners take the marriage seriously and work at it. Pre-marital counseling is helpful in defining expectations of marriage so spouses are on the same page when it comes to the details of life i.e. finances, child-rearing, chores, religion, careers etc. My husband was of the mind that we didn't need to get into those things because we would figure it out if and when a problem arose. I differed and we hashed it out before walking down the aisle. Love can conquer many obstacles but a basic difference in values is difficult to overcome. 

As for looking up to? To me that is respect - mutual respect. I suppose that some men may consider listening to their spouse as 'catering' but, I sincerely hope not. Don't know if I've addressed all the points in your 'theory' - at least you know where I stand.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

@sokillme, out of the mouths of babes

"Anyway, the one thing that can't be discounted is that Men are now starting to fall behind. But I wonder if they have climbed the corporate latter enough to learn that it is not worth it. *Women haven't got the chance to be disillusioned about how career is form most people about getting up and going to a job they hate, *so they can buy a bunch of stuff they really don't need. Give it time, they will give up too."

When my husband was in college, he decided to work full-time and attend college at night. He was hired as a bank teller and was paid $25/month more than female new-hires because he was male. Mind you, pay scales were much lower and his monthly pay was $400/month. This is the work world Ele and I entered and to some degree exists today. So, women have pretty much always been disillusioned in the work world. But, we still got up and went to work at a job we hated knowing we were being paid less than a man because there was a need to pay for rent and all the other accroutement of fine living.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> @sokillme, out of the mouths of babes
> 
> 
> 
> ...




My company pays new hire women more than men for equal position, equal work. 

Companies often pay the under-represented gender more to attract them and keep them.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Blondilocks said:


> @sokillme, out of the mouths of babes
> 
> "Anyway, the one thing that can't be discounted is that Men are now starting to fall behind. But I wonder if they have climbed the corporate latter enough to learn that it is not worth it. *Women haven't got the chance to be disillusioned about how career is form most people about getting up and going to a job they hate, *so they can buy a bunch of stuff they really don't need. Give it time, they will give up too."
> 
> When my husband was in college, he decided to work full-time and attend college at night. He was hired as a bank teller and was paid $25/month more than female new-hires because he was male. Mind you, pay scales were much lower and his monthly pay was $400/month. This is the work world Ele and I entered and to some degree exists today. So, women have pretty much always been disillusioned in the work world. But, we still got up and went to work at a job we hated knowing we were being paid less than a man because there was a need to pay for rent and all the other accroutement of fine living.


In my first job as a software engineer, I made about 50% of what the men doing the exact same job with the same degree, from the same university were making. I had worked there for some time before I figured this out When I complained to management, they told me that I was lucky I had a job... that I should be in the kitchen with children.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sokillme said:


> Anyway, the one thing that can't be discounted is that Men are now starting to fall behind. But I wonder if they have climbed the corporate latter enough to learn that it is not worth it.


I don’t think that the men are falling behind. It is true that more women go to college, (61% of college students are female according to Pew Research), but that does not equate men falling behind.

Let’s look at this over time:

In 1975 10.6% of all women and 17.6% of all men had a college education.

In 1985 16% of all women and 23.1% of all men had a college education.

In 2015 32.7% of all women and 32.3% of all men had a college education.

Today, almost twice as many men have college degrees than in 1975. That’s hardly falling behind.

Today, about 3 times as many women have college degrees than in 1975. But a lot of that is catchup because in 1975, the number of women getting degrees was pretty low.
Today, men and women have college degrees at about the same rate. 

There is also another factor in play. It is far easier for a man to get a good paying job without a degree than it is for a woman to get a good paying job without a college degree. So a lot of young men look at college and figure that the investment of their time and money is not worth it. I have a nephew who has done this. He is 27, earns about $100K a year in the oil industry. His 25-year-old sister has a 4 year nursing degree and cannot get that kind of income. She I married and has 2 kids, she is the primary bread winner too.

The other thing is that more men make higher income after college because more men go into fields like STEM than woman. A lot of those women in college are getting degrees that quite honestly are not going to help them all that much to earn a good income.
https://www.statista.com/statistics...nment-of-college-diploma-or-higher-by-gender/



sokillme said:


> Women haven't got the chance to be disillusioned about how career is form most people about getting up and going to a job they hate, so they can buy a bunch of stuff they really don't need. Give it time, they will give up too.


About 50% of women are not married (and about 50% of men as well). So clearly about 50% of women are supporting themselves. About 70% of married women work and about 50% of married women earn as much or more than their husbands.

Clearly the majority of women work and are the sole or significant contributor to their family income.

Why would you think that women don’t have the same experience with work that men do? Why would you think that women don’t get to the point of hating their job but having to go to it because they and their family depend on the job?




sokillme said:


> Women haven't got the chance to be disillusioned about how career is form most people about getting up and going to a job they hate, so they can buy a bunch of stuff they really don't need. Give it time, they will give up too.[/QUOTE
> 
> Really? That’s why you think women work? You think that the income that women earn is just a frivolous income?
> 
> ...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

blueinbr said:


> My company pays new hire women more than men for equal position, equal work.
> 
> Companies often pay the under-represented gender more to attract them and keep them.


I find this hard to believe since I've never seen this. Not even with companies that do government contracting.

What kind of work does you company do?


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> I don’t think that the men are falling behind. It is true that more women go to college, (61% of college students are female according to Pew Research), but that does not equate men falling behind.
> 
> Let’s look at this over time:
> 
> ...


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> I find this hard to believe since I've never seen this. Not even with companies that do government contracting.
> 
> What kind of work does you company do?


Global manufacturing. For a while I was a hiring manager with large staff, so I had access to salaries. HR specifically told me to favor women. It was a male dominated area so HR wanted to increase the number of women. 

My wife had the opposite experience. She worked in a female dominated position (teaching). All the male teachers were offered (not necessarily accepted) coaching positions since they got extra pay. I waffle on this. On one hand all discrimination is wrong. But on the other hand, having some male teachers to be roles models for young boys who make up 50% of the students does have some social value. 

In both cases the minority gender was highly sought after and so compensation had to be higher to attract them from the competition. 

I don't have any first hand experience on pay when both sexes are equally represented.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> I would guess that in most marriages, the woman is the primary care giver even if she works full time and is the primary breadwinner. It seems that most men leave that to the mother of their children. Most of the studies I've read have found this to be true.
> 
> But, more and more, states are looking at 50/50 custody. Here in NM, it is in the best interest for the children. So even if a woman is a SAHM, she's not likely to get primary custody unless her ex agrees to that. She has to go get a job anyway.
> 
> ...


Right, there is split custody but in cases who the person who makes more money is not the caregiver you have to pay child support on top of spousal support...etc. If I were a woman I was trying to illustrate that I would then not have to pay child support I could just take my 50% and be fine with that.


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## niceguy28 (May 6, 2016)

Stack said:


> My Light Went Out | The Huffington Post
> 
> Carly Israel says he was a kind man and an excellent father. Despite knowing it would destroy him and their three boys, she decided to "choose me" and divorce this good man. She list 10 gifts from a messy divorce which include: You get to really, truly know your ex; You get closer to God...
> 
> ...


Yea that type of stuff is a big reason. She seems to totally ignore her own role in this and let a good guy go because she "felt alone." I'm married but I would tell any young guy that is not worried about the religious aspect or having kids in a two parent home to not do it. Her husband probably got taken to the cleaners and lost his kids behind a divorce that he didn't even want. I honestly feel like society has made women believe that they have very little responsibility in marriage other than to be happy and the husband is supposed to either make her happy or lose his kids and half of his stuff. At the rate things are going it wouldn't surprise me if marriage died as an institution in the next 30 to 50 years.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> @sokillme, out of the mouths of babes
> 
> "Anyway, the one thing that can't be discounted is that Men are now starting to fall behind. But I wonder if they have climbed the corporate latter enough to learn that it is not worth it. *Women haven't got the chance to be disillusioned about how career is form most people about getting up and going to a job they hate, *so they can buy a bunch of stuff they really don't need. Give it time, they will give up too."
> 
> When my husband was in college, he decided to work full-time and attend college at night. He was hired as a bank teller and was paid $25/month more than female new-hires because he was male. Mind you, pay scales were much lower and his monthly pay was $400/month. This is the work world Ele and I entered and to some degree exists today. So, women have pretty much always been disillusioned in the work world. But, we still got up and went to work at a job we hated knowing we were being paid less than a man because there was a need to pay for rent and all the other accroutement of fine living.


I find that only people who get to do their passion, or who make huge amounts of money really like their job. They may not hate it. I don't hate mine now, but I wouldn't be here for free.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> In my first job as a software engineer, I made about 50% of what the men doing the exact same job with the same degree, from the same university were making. I had worked there for some time before I figured this out When I complained to management, they told me that I was lucky I had a job... that I should be in the kitchen with children.


Fortran? Do you still program?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> Really? That’s why you think women work? You think that the income that women earn is just a frivolous income?
> 
> I know a lot of women who are the primary breadwinners, even the sole bread winners, for their family. A lot of single women who support themselves… you know these women pay the mortgage, the car payment, buy the food, pay the medical bills.
> 
> Wake up, it’s 2017.


Man sometimes you are so defensive and you project so much. I get that you had some bad experiences with men but at times you are the opposite side of the same coin of some of the defensive guys on here. I have a feeling someone like me is beyond your experience with how you take stuff I say and assume it to mean absolutely the worst way possible.

*NO* its not that I think women work like for frivolous income (like I haven't watched my Mother, 3 sisters, wife, work all their life. I have said it many times before, my wife is the hardest, most disciplined, most impressive worker I have ever seen. My favorite all-time boss was a woman, though I like my boss now.), my point is there are still a lot of young women out there who want to break the glass ceiling and who are all excited about having a career. This "career women" idea has always been a part of the women's movement. So there is still that push. I think a lot of men have seen their fathers do that, know they have options, know they are not held back but don't really want to have a career. They especially don't want one that is behind a desk all day. The opt for a simple life not a materiel one, or one of career achievement. Women are only in the last 40 years having these options, so society hasn't gotten cynical about it when it comes to them. Give them some time, girls will see their mothers who dedicated their whole lives to some company only to see them get a pen and a plaque and a kick out the door. The will realize career is not all it's cracked up to be. That was my point. 

Geesh. 

Please name one sexist stance I have ever had on here. The only time I have ever brought up gender is with one poster who is bigoted.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

naiveonedave said:


> I don’t think that the men are falling behind. It is true that more women go to college, (61% of college students are female according to Pew Research), but that does not equate men falling behind.
> 
> Let’s look at this over time:
> 
> ...



It's not women's responsibility to help us men get ahead. Men need to stop being afraid and compete. We men have let young men off the hook. It's not acceptable to not get good grades. It's not acceptable to not have a plan. It's not acceptable to be passive. It's not acceptable to live a home until you are 25 with no prospects. A good example of the type of men we are talking about is all the guys who post on SI with wives that run all over them. Where where their fathers. Where are their fathers. If that was my son or daughter I would be over there every day telling them to pick themselves up and stop being a victim. I am tired of all this whining. This is what is needed. 






Most of all men need to stop worrying what other people think of them. Leaders don't worry they lead.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Stack said:


> The false rape claims, eg UVA, Duke, Minnesota, Kobe, etc... are a great disservice to those women who have been raped.


It's horrible for both women and men. What's most disturbing is how fast the media is to jump all over these stories without skepticism. When the Duke LaCrosse story hit the news for a few seconds I was horrified that they would do that. But as soon as I started reading about it, it simply did NOT ring true to me based on my life experience as a woman around men (I was in the military where my dept. was once 2 women and 18 men. I got drunk out of my mind with them (not proud, just a fact, no one ever tried to take advantage of me and I'm probably a good solid 7 on the looks scale which is HOT when you have a ratio of 18 to 2...) I digress - to me it's clear many in the media and academia have a prejudice against white males, especial those with money, where they are just champing at the bit for an opportunity to tell the story of what are evil predators they really are. I'm not saying it couldn't happen - evil comes in all colors and stripes. I'm just saying that story did not sound credible to me from the word go but the school and media clearly did not question it.

KOBE - that's a different story. In my mind, he is NOT so innocent. To me that's more a tragedy story of the mixed signals our current culture gives regarding women, sex, and acceptable behavior. That girl initially claimed that she did not say "NO" or "STOP" to him. So technically, he did not *rape *her. However, that he would walk into a hotel room and so swiftly grab a strange woman and start kissing her then immediately progress to sex. Well, seriously - What the HELL? I can imagine from her perspective bewilderment and things just spinning out of control before she could really wrap her head around what was going on. I really feel for that chambermaid.



Stack said:


> It is a significant factor. The availability of porn isn't helping. Men understand the risk of the legal system (including divorce and custody) overwhelming favors the female. Men hear that women are looking for a good man, but Tinder says otherwise. Men also hear they are losers living in their mom's basement getting high and playing video games. The also hear women say they don't need a man and they can perform the man's role in the family.
> 
> Most boys don't feel inferior. My son doesn't. His friends don't. It's a biological fact that boys develop slower then girls. At 5-yrs, the age children typically enter kindergarten, boys read at a 2-3yr-old level relative to girls. Boys are way behind the social curve relative to girls. I think it takes more time to close the gap. I would argue that is why, with couples, men are usually older then the women. Anecdotally, my daughter, 20yrs, college student, has the same complaints about boys. She has given up on guys her age... and now is dating a guy who is 26, driven, ambitious, and has a vision for what he wants.
> 
> ...


The thing with the internet is that it enables you to find like minded people even if they are statistically rare. My understanding is that Tinder is a hookup ap for hos. I doubt a significant portion of single women are on Tinder. Remember that ****** Maddison site that got hacked? Turned out many of the "women" on there were actually bots.

Noah Patterson kind of makes my point though as to why I really think fewer young men want to have serious relationships and get married. He's employed - and sounds ambitious - so that gives me hope.  However, he's not interested enough in women to go to the trouble to develop a real relationship. He's only 18 right now, but will he feel any different when he's 25? If so, will he have the social skills to land a woman? Will he be willing to put time and energy into a relationship? He might be great for a woman looking only for financial stability, but one looking for companionship and help around the house would probably be very frustrated and lonely with him. Also, I wonder what being a virgin who uses porn does to sexual development for later in life if he does want real sex? When I was 18 kids were going to college but their number 1 interest in life was usually the opposite sex.

I'm glad your sons don't feel inferior! That may not have been the right word. I have read that they sort of tune out because the way school is taught often goes against their tendencies. But it sounds like that's not an issue for your boys so hopefully that's been exaggerated in what I've read. But stories like boys getting in trouble at school for chewing their graham cracker into the shape of a gun and ridiculous things like that really concern me for young boys.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

naiveonedave said:


> there is a lot wrong with your post:
> 
> On a relative basis, men are falling behind in college education. The fact that you almost need a BS degree to get any type of job, makes it almost mandatory.


I agree that today in the USA BS degrees are needed for a lot more jobs and ever before. And I think that is pretty stupid. IMHO, our education system is screwed up. I like what Germany is doing and I think we should look at that. In Germany very few jobs require a college degree. Instead their high schools are set up so that when a person graduates from high school they are trained for a good job/career. A much lower percentage of German's go to college because of this.

It is ridiculous that our children spend 12 years in school are not prepared for much of any job when they graduate. It's even more ridiculous that since our system requires a college degree for so many jobs, a large percentage of our youth end up in deep debt before they even start working.

But, even today, there are many jobs that do not require a college degree. There are a lot of good paying jobs in the trades that do not.



naiveonedave said:


> I guess you have never seen a female electrician or plumber. That HS grad women can't get high paying jobs is bulloney.


Nope, I have never seen a female plumber. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, only 1.7% of "Pipelayers, plumbers, pipefitters, and steamfitters" are women. So I'm really not very surprised that I've never seen a female plumber.

https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm



naiveonedave said:


> It is purely the average women's fault if they get a "MRS" degree and not a "real" degree. That is purely an individuals choice.


Um, most married women work, most full time. Here are the average income levels given by the BLS based on education and gender. Clearly men with only HS education earn more on average than women with only a high school education. Actually this hold for all levels of education. Keep in mind that this only looks at people who are working full time.

Median weekly earnings of full-time wage and salary works by education attainment

High school graduates, no college -- Male: $751, Female: $578
BS degree - Male: $1,249, Female: $965
Advanced Degree - Male: $1,630, Female: $1,185

https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2015/m...ucation-gender-race-and-ethnicity-in-2014.htm



naiveonedave said:


> please stop the spin.


As you can see, I'm using numbers from the BLS. If you disagree with those numbers, please take it up with them.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

blueinbr said:


> Global manufacturing. For a while I was a hiring manager with large staff, so I had access to salaries. HR specifically told me to favor women. It was a male dominated area so HR wanted to increase the number of women.


So this was some goal that the company setup all for itself. I disagree with paying someone more based on their gender, race, etc. Any company who does this opens themself up for a law suit. I think that they would have much luck making a strong business case for doing what they did.




blueinbr said:


> My wife had the opposite experience. She worked in a female dominated position (teaching). All the male teachers were offered (not necessarily accepted) coaching positions since they got extra pay. I waffle on this. On one hand all discrimination is wrong. But on the other hand, having some male teachers to be roles models for young boys who make up 50% of the students does have some social value.


I agree that we need more male teachers in our school system (1-12). We especially need more male teachers in areas that are not sports... STEM, language, etc. Our kids need to see both men and women. But what has happened is that in a lot of districts, teacher pay is so low that mostly women apply.

When my son was in HS, he hated it. I was very concerned that the teachers had no idea how to handle a boy who could not sit in a chair all day. So I let him take the GED in 10th grade. He signed up for college and is doing very well. Of course now in math and physics, most of his professors are men.



blueinbr said:


> In both cases the minority gender was highly sought after and so compensation had to be higher to attract them from the competition.


Maybe some places have done this. 




blueinbr said:


> I don't have any first hand experience on pay when both sexes are equally represented.


There must be some gov study that covers this...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sokillme said:


> Fortran? Do you still program?


We mostly stopped using Fortran a long time ago. I'm not sure I can recall all of the languages..... assembly, lisp, pascal, fortran, even cobol, Ada, C/C++/C# (Visual C++ too), Basic & Visual Basic, .Net stuff, LabView, Perl, SQL 

Shells: Bash, Bourne, C, Corn/csh

Mathematica, MATLAB

I'm sure I left some off that list.

I retired last year. Before that I had gotten to a point in my career where I was doing a lot of project management, system design, etc.

Now I have my own company and mostly do management. But if I get a project I like... I'll program. I really like design and system engineering far more than just typing out code for most things. That's what the young engineers are for.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sokillme said:


> Man sometimes you are so defensive and you project so much. I get that you had some bad experiences with men but at times you are the opposite side of the same coin of some of the defensive guys on here. I have a feeling someone like me is beyond your experience with how you take stuff I say and assume it to mean absolutely the worst way possible.
> 
> *NO* its not that I think women work like for frivolous income (like I haven't watched my Mother, 3 sisters, wife, work all their life. I have said it many times before, my wife is the hardest, most disciplined, most impressive worker I have ever seen. My favorite all-time boss was a woman, though I like my boss now.), my point is there are still a lot of young women out there who want to break the glass ceiling and who are all excited about having a career. This "career women" idea has always been a part of the women's movement. So there is still that push. I think a lot of men have seen their fathers do that, know they have options, know they are not held back but don't really want to have a career. They especially don't want one that is behind a desk all day. The opt for a simple life not a materiel one, or one of career achievement. Women are only in the last 40 years having these options, so society hasn't gotten cynical about it when it comes to them. Give them some time, girls will see their mothers who dedicated their whole lives to some company only to see them get a pen and a plaque and a kick out the door. The will realize career is not all it's cracked up to be. That was my point.
> 
> ...


I re-read that post. With what you wrote here, I understand your point of view a lot better. In hindsight, I especially misunderstood a this part in particular:




sokillme said:


> so they can buy a bunch of stuff they really don't need. Give it time, they will give up too.


When I first read it, I took it as you saying that women only work so they can buy a bunch of stuff that they don't need.

mia culpa


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> We mostly stopped using Fortran a long time ago. I'm not sure I can recall all of the languages..... assembly, lisp, pascal, fortran, even cobol, Ada, C/C++/C# (Visual C++ too), Basic & Visual Basic, .Net stuff, LabView, Perl, SQL
> 
> Shells: Bash, Bourne, C, Corn/csh
> 
> ...


I started about 15 years ago. Pretty burned out now though. Mostly doing project management and systems management. I like interacting with people more then sitting behind a desk, which makes me weird for a programmer. I don't think I would ever take another programming job, if all it was was programming.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

tech-novelist said:


> The solipsism in the quoted excerpt is dazzling.


Carly Israel -
For her sake, THIS.... as she sat across from her two besties, they looked at Carly and said, “Your light went out.”

This women..... *She holds "The Candle that Lights the World"? And in her darkness the World follows suit and goes black?
*
This candle, taken from the hand of Christ, one would presume? 

For The Lord sayeth, "I am the way and the truth and the life."

This wench usurped the Glory for herself. She, and she alone, is at the center of the Universe.

Solipsism enjoined to the Narcissist Persona.

The "Me" generation in America and the modern Western World.

I thank B.Control for this phenomena. Freedom has a catastrophic surcharge.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> @TheTruthHurts
> 
> @Blondilocks @EleGirl @deidre @SimplyAmorous I want to know what you think of my theory. I believe if a man is a man - talk about that later - and a woman admires and respects him and he adores and wants to cherish and provide and protect her, then the marriage will work.
> 
> ...




Well now @Blondilocks that's the whole point of this forum, isn't it? To help marriages, and help people communicate.

When I said I think we agree, I meant it. And when I said it means a man has to listen to a woman's issues (cater to them) and a woman has to respect and look up to a man, I chose those words carefully. Because I'm a man and that's my perspective. I happen to be an enlightened man and WANT to know whats bothering my W, but many men simply don't understand this or take issue with it. EXACTLY as you have taken issue with my choice of words that mean the same thing you are saying.

Men and women are wired differently (assuming the 80/20 rule of course). So men NEED to slow down and "cater" to their women - meaning really stop and listen. This doesn't come naturally to many/most men which is why it is actually a catering action. By the same token, women have to cater to men - do things and say things that are not natural or necessary in their minds, but which meet men's needs

You'll not that my phrasing resonated with some women. I'd say it is those women who put aside their conceptions and listen to their men and accept their semantics. That's all. 

Personally, as an older guy, I find these distinctions and semantical differences helpful. It allows both sexes to recognize that their spouse doesn't see things the same way and therefore what seem to be problems are often only perspective differences

Finally, I think younger people have misunderstood equality of the sexes and aren't meeting each other needs any better even though they appear to focus on equality and appear to use the same semantics

I'd much rather use very different semantics and acknowledge different perspectives - and have a successful marriage - than pretend we're all the same and see things the same but not realize we actually mean different things and aren't communicating at all


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Good grief. This is such a distorted picture.
> 
> 
> The divorce rate is the highest in couples in which the woman is under 25 and the man under 30. Young folks today know that. So they await until they are stable. If the woman is over 25 and the man is over 30, the divorce rate goes way down... if the woman has a college degree, the divorce rate falls to about 25%. The more education both spouses have , the lover the divorce rate... even lower than 25%.
> ...


I think you miss the point. The divorce rate is highest among the youngest because they are the least mature. But the fact of the matter is that the divorce rate amongst the youngest is actually decreasing. At the same time the divorce rate amongst the older couples is skyrocketing. And most divorces are filed by women.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> This is what gets me about this entire thread. The thread is little more than a sexist rant against women.


Oh yes, and now YOUR bias comes out (once again). Heavens forbid that men might actually express how they feel. Because when they do it becomes a "sexist rant against women". You might try applying some of that moderation that comes with your title. Or you can just ban me again for speaking the truth or as you call it "belligerence" How's about trying to understand where men are coming from instead of painting everything as a "sexist rant against women" based on your experiences.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Here is the reality. Most men are still held to and still adhere to the expectations of "traditional marriage". At the same time most women have accepted and adhere to expectations of "happiness". Often times, these expectations coincide with each other, especially when those involved are younger and have less experience. But as we age, mature and gain experience, those expectations tend to divert from each other. So while many women choose divorce as a means to "happiness", the men they leave behind are left devastated by the shattering of what they perceive to be the failing to meet their own expectations.


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Ynot said:


> Oh yes, and now YOUR bias comes out (once again). Heavens forbid that men might actually express how they feel. Because when they do it becomes a "sexist rant against women". You might try applying some of that moderation that comes with your title. Or you can just ban me again for speaking the truth or as you call it "belligerence" How's about trying to understand where men are coming from instead of painting everything as a "sexist rant against women" based on your experiences.


The OP brought the 'sexist rant' allegation on himself with his posts #67 & 68. Ele is a fair moderator and if you were banned by her (as was I) then you deserved it (as did I).


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Blondi,
Your response below is great. I was hoping if I just (bit my tongue) someone would come along and nail it. The mutual respect thing does that. 

I don't think I could love (in the true sense) someone I didn't respect. 




Blondilocks said:


> @TheTruthHurts
> "@Blondilocks @EleGirl @deidre @SimplyAmorous I want to know what you think of my theory. I believe if a man is a man - talk about that later - and a woman admires and respects him and he adores and wants to cherish and provide and protect her, then the marriage will work.
> "
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ynot,
I am posting as a fellow citizen - not a mod. Your 'reality' and mine are very different. 

In mine, most of the guys have had at least a few sexual relationships before marriage and accept that their future wife will have done the same. Those relationships provide a frame of reference. A basis for what later turn out to be sometimes unflattering comparisons to a marital partner. 

I will agree with you on one thing. Women are overall tougher. They handle change better. And divorce is a very big change. 






Ynot said:


> Here is the reality. Most men are still held to and still adhere to the expectations of "traditional marriage". At the same time most women have accepted and adhere to expectations of "happiness". Often times, these expectations coincide with each other, especially when those involved are younger and have less experience. But as we age, mature and gain experience, those expectations tend to divert from each other. So while many women choose divorce as a means to "happiness", the men they leave behind are left devastated by the shattering of what they perceive to be the failing to meet their own expectations.


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Ynot,
> I am posting as a fellow citizen - not a mod. Your 'reality' and mine are very different.
> 
> In mine, most of the guys have had at least a few sexual relationships before marriage and accept that their future wife will have done the same. Those relationships provide a frame of reference. A basis for what later turn out to be sometimes unflattering comparisons to a marital partner.
> ...


Who is talking about sexual relationships? I posted about marriage. It matters not how many sexual relationships one may or may not have had prior to a marriage. What I am talking about are the expectations going into the marriage, men tend to be held to a different standard by society. They are expected to live up to the ideals of traditional marriage ie provider, loyal, safe etc. In the meantime, society tells women that their happiness is what is most important. Early on when men and women are young these two expectations align with each other. As we mature they tend to separate. IOW men still continue to try to provide, be loyal and safe. But these no longer make some women happy ie the things that make them happy are no longer in alignment with the man they chose to marry. WTH that has to do with the number of sexual partners one was before marriage is beyond me - maybe you can explain?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Marital happiness is gauged to a degree against prior relationship experience. 

And IMHO there are two primary measures of marital 'health':
- Quality of the environment you provide the children
- Degree to which the adults bring out each other's best (which correlates fairly well, though not perfectly to happiness)





Ynot said:


> Who is talking about sexual relationships? I posted about marriage. It matters not how many sexual relationships one may or may not have had prior to a marriage. What I am talking about are the expectations going into the marriage, men tend to be held to a different standard by society. They are expected to live up to the ideals of traditional marriage ie provider, loyal, safe etc. In the meantime, society tells women that their happiness is what is most important. Early on when men and women are young these two expectations align with each other. As we mature they tend to separate. IOW men still continue to try to provide, be loyal and safe. But these no longer make some women happy ie the things that make them happy are no longer in alignment with the man they chose to marry. WTH that has to do with the number of sexual partners one was before marriage is beyond me - maybe you can explain?


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Marital happiness is gauged to a degree against prior relationship experience.
> 
> And IMHO there are two primary measures of marital 'health':
> - Quality of the environment you provide the children
> - Degree to which the adults bring out each other's best (which correlates fairly well, though not perfectly to happiness)


And again, I have no idea what you are talking about. My post was in regards to the expectations that men and women have concerning marriage. As I have said, society tends to impose upon men the expectations of the traditional marriage, yet that same society promotes the expectation of happiness to women. So while men sacrifice, deny themselves, try to be good, loyal husbands and attentive fathers, women are told to think about their own happiness (which is exactly what the woman in the OP did). In the aftermath, after the divorce, women are told "you go girl!" while men are told "you just didn't listen to me!".
Why you keep going off the rails about sexual experiences and now marital health, I just don't understand.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ynot,
Your advice to CB - whose wife seems to be headed to the exits - is first class. The best in the thread. And yet this exchange seems to be bringing out something entirely different. 

First of all, I never cared what 'societies' expectations were for me as a husband. I didn't marry 'society', I married M2. And yes, I very much cared what her expectations were. I can't speak to anyone else's conduct in that regard - other than to say that the world is full of women who run the gamut from super traditional to super modern. Probably best to choose a spouse who works well with you. 

Am I wrong in thinking that you are angry because you played by the rules and Y2 divorced you without a valid reason? 

I am not poking you, I am genuinely curious. 

Perhaps the crux of my reaction is based on belief that if M2 really isn't happy with me, she SHOULD leave me. The kids are grown, we've done our job in that regard. Why should she stay with me if she is unhappy with my companionship?

And in the spirit of full disclosure, that view is not symmetrical as I seriously doubt that I could leave her, even if I wasn't real happy. I can't justify the rightness of that, perhaps it is founded on the idea that I signed up to take care of her and plan to do so till death. But that view doesn't originate externally. It is likely the result of some malfunctioning neural circuitry.  






Ynot said:


> And again, I have no idea what you are talking about. My post was in regards to the expectations that men and women have concerning marriage. As I have said, society tends to impose upon men the expectations of the traditional marriage, yet that same society promotes the expectation of happiness to women. So while men sacrifice, deny themselves, try to be good, loyal husbands and attentive fathers, women are told to think about their own happiness (which is exactly what the woman in the OP did). In the aftermath, after the divorce, women are told "you go girl!" while men are told "you just didn't listen to me!".
> Why you keep going off the rails about sexual experiences and now marital health, I just don't understand.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I've actually talked with single women about this idea of happiness at almost any cost. For many I talked with, it is true. The tables seem to have turned and men are the ones who wish there was something to hold onto within marriage. I think it has more to do with the way men seem to make a goal and stick with it, for the most part. Whereas, many women seem to be able to and want almost constant change. 

You can see examples of that here at TAM in threads where the wife is talking about communicating better or having better sex or you name it. 

Not that I think that is a bad idea. It's good to move toward better compatibility through communication and understanding each other and our needs. 

Women can have it all. Many of them go for it. Can you blame them? No. Is it conducive to a stable marriage? I'm thinking, no. Wish I could prove it. 

Modern laws make it easier to change your mind. Most men don't seem to want to divorce. Maybe they are more afraid of change than women. I don't know. They seem to just want long-term stability. I think we can all agree, that is not popular today.


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Ynot,
> Your advice to CB - whose wife seems to be headed to the exits - is first class. The best in the thread. And yet this exchange seems to be bringing out something entirely different.
> 
> First of all, I never cared what 'societies' expectations were for me as a husband. I didn't marry 'society', I married M2. And yes, I very much cared what her expectations were. I can't speak to anyone else's conduct in that regard - other than to say that the world is full of women who run the gamut from super traditional to super modern. Probably best to choose a spouse who works well with you.
> ...


No my reaction to your post is that your replies have nothing to do with what I posted, yet you quoted my posts. I am not angry, I just realize that what society expected of me, and the ideal that most me attempt to live up to, is not what many women seem to want. There is no anger. My anger occurred early on after my divorce. Now I realize that it doesn't matter what society expects of me, I am just going to be me and society can take a flying leap. For this I am called "sexist" as in making a sexist rant.

But in regards to your disclosure at the end, that does in fact originate externally. You have only been told it is a result of some malfunctioning neural circuitry. If you were younger and thought differently, you would probably be medicated to the point of believing it


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> I've actually talked with single women about this idea of happiness at almost any cost. For many I talked with, it is true. The tables seem to have turned and men are the ones who wish there was something to hold onto within marriage. I think it has more to do with the way men seem to make a goal and stick with it, for the most part. Whereas, many women seem to be able to and want almost constant change.
> 
> You can see examples of that here at TAM in threads where the wife is talking about communicating better or having better sex or you name it.
> 
> ...


I went for having it all in my second marriage and on a good day I would say we have an excellent relationship on a bad day we still have an excellent relationship. People can have it all depending on what "it all" actually means. For me it is compatibility, great sex, financial security, companionship, laughter, fun, common goals and interests, great social life, travel, lots of quality time, lots of family and friends, great sex, being with someone that brings out your best and that you want to bring out the best in. 

Many women want it all but it is hard to find someone to have it all with and that is why women are choosing not to marry, they no longer have to settle for a man that does not meet their needs and wants. Women are now able to openly say they want an amazing sex life as part of their marriage, this used to be a taboo topic. So yes I think a lot more women will opt out of or get out of average marriages if they are not getting the sex life they want.


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## Haiku (Apr 9, 2014)

Where's the op?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ynot,
Let me be more direct then. Your thesis is that society expects men to be noble, hardworking and self sacrificing. And women to indulge their selfish desire to be happy. I disagree. Lot of 'men' out there prioritizing video games and porn over their careers and family. 

A core issue is that the stigma of divorce has mostly disappeared for both genders. So unhappy partners - are far more likely to leave or cheat. This is true for both genders.

And fwiw you do come across as angry at society. But society didn't divorce you, your wife did. 




Ynot said:


> No my reaction to your post is that your replies have nothing to do with what I posted, yet you quoted my posts. I am not angry, I just realize that what society expected of me, and the ideal that most me attempt to live up to, is not what many women seem to want. There is no anger. My anger occurred early on after my divorce. Now I realize that it doesn't matter what society expects of me, I am just going to be me and society can take a flying leap. For this I am called "sexist" as in making a sexist rant.
> 
> But in regards to your disclosure at the end, that does in fact originate externally. You have only been told it is a result of some malfunctioning neural circuitry. If you were younger and thought differently, you would probably be medicated to the point of believing it


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Ynot,
> Let me be more direct then. Your thesis is that society expects men to be noble, hardworking and self sacrificing. And women to indulge their selfish desire to be happy. I disagree. Lot of 'men' out there prioritizing video games and porn over their careers and family.
> 
> A core issue is that the stigma of divorce has mostly disappeared for both genders. So unhappy partners - are far more likely to leave or cheat. This is true for both genders.
> ...


You can be as direct as you like, but I am not talking about what society expects generally, I am talking about what society expects specifically in terms of marriage, and for the different genders. I still don't understand how me being confused about you talking about stuff that has nothing to do with what I posted somehow implies that I am angry. I have simply asked why. So far you have given me three different answers, all of which center on some assumption on your part that I am somehow angry about society. As I have said a number of times now. I am not angry, I am merely stating an observation that the expectations that society places on men and women are different. Now, do you agree or do you disagree and please stick to the subject I am talking about, not whatever tangent you want to go off on.

And FTR, yes, that is my theory. Men are taught (and medicated) to be self sacrificing (we aren't supposed to compete because that isn't fair) and women are taught to "go for it". The gender roles for men and women have been flipped upside down. Yet our court system and laws are still geared towards outdated ideas in regards to gender roles. I have a friend who will soon be filing a class action lawsuit against the domestic relations court on the basis that they discriminate unfairly in favor of women (awarding child support, custody and visitation).

I am not "angry" at society. I am merely recognizing a fact. That doesn't make me angry that makes me cognizant.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ynot,
I should have been more precise and added: in the context of marriage. As that was my intended meaning. 

I will gladly respond - but before I would ask for a clarification. The bolded statement directly below seems to be a general depiction of behavior and not specific to marital behavior. Am I understanding you correctly? I am asking because 'taught and medicated' seems more general than: taught not to compete with women in marriage. 

*And FTR, yes, that is my theory. Men are taught (and medicated) to be self sacrificing (we aren't supposed to compete because that isn't fair) and women are taught to "go for it". *






Ynot said:


> You can be as direct as you like, but I am not talking about what society expects generally, I am talking about what society expects specifically in terms of marriage, and for the different genders. I still don't understand how me being confused about you talking about stuff that has nothing to do with what I posted somehow implies that I am angry. I have simply asked why. So far you have given me three different answers, all of which center on some assumption on your part that I am somehow angry about society. As I have said a number of times now. I am not angry, I am merely stating an observation that the expectations that society places on men and women are different. Now, do you agree or do you disagree and please stick to the subject I am talking about, not whatever tangent you want to go off on.
> 
> And FTR, yes, that is my theory. Men are taught (and medicated) to be self sacrificing (we aren't supposed to compete because that isn't fair) and women are taught to "go for it". The gender roles for men and women have been flipped upside down. Yet our court system and laws are still geared towards outdated ideas in regards to gender roles. I have a friend who will soon be filing a class action lawsuit against the domestic relations court on the basis that they discriminate unfairly in favor of women (awarding child support, custody and visitation).
> 
> I am not "angry" at society. I am merely recognizing a fact. That doesn't make me angry that makes me cognizant.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

MrsHolland said:


> I went for having it all in my second marriage and on a good day I would say we have an excellent relationship on a bad day we still have an excellent relationship. People can have it all depending on what "it all" actually means. For me it is compatibility, great sex, financial security, companionship, laughter, fun, common goals and interests, great social life, travel, lots of quality time, lots of family and friends, great sex, being with someone that brings out your best and that you want to bring out the best in.
> 
> Many women want it all but it is hard to find someone to have it all with and that is why women are choosing not to marry, they no longer have to settle for a man that does not meet their needs and wants. Women are now able to openly say they want an amazing sex life as part of their marriage, this used to be a taboo topic. So yes I think a lot more women will opt out of or get out of average marriages if they are not getting the sex life they want.


Why do you think that women's expectations have become so high? Or, why do you think men have become less than stellar husbands?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> Why do you think that women's expectations have become so high? Or, why do you think men have become less than stellar husbands?


I think putting into the words "so high" is actually incorrect. Women today will not be held down so low as women in the past. In the past wives had to basically put up and shut up, women could not work once married and they had little say in the running of their own lives. Now women are more able to be educated and have a career, they can follow their dreams which was until recently only the realm of men.

When you have a whole gender that was until recently held back and treated with such inequality then it should be no surprise that as the momento grows and women gain more equal rights and opportunities that things get shaken up a whole lot. Sadly of course in many parts of the world women have less and less rights and are treated with more and more violence against them.

So now that women have a voice and they refuse to live the life their mothers and before had to endure then men are going to have to step up or be over looked. Women can now talk about their sex lives and do have high expectations in that regard, why shouldn't we? I think you will find that many women will give their all, inside and outside the bedroom to a man that is worth it. He does not have to be the hottest, richest man around but he does have to be a good lover and treat her with respect.

I think a lot of men underestimate the power that a good lover has. Combine that with being a good man then all of a sudden you have a Superman on your hands, why would any woman settle for less?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

MrsHolland said:


> I think putting into the words "so high" is actually incorrect. Women today will not be held down so low as women in the past. In the past wives had to basically put up and shut up, women could not work once married and they had little say in the running of their own lives. Now women are more able to be educated and have a career, they can follow their dreams which was until recently only the realm of men.
> 
> When you have a whole gender that was until recently held back and treated with such inequality then it should be no surprise that as the momento grows and women gain more equal rights and opportunities that things get shaken up a whole lot. Sadly of course in many parts of the world women have less and less rights and are treated with more and more violence against them.
> 
> ...


I suppose you are speaking of men being the only ones allowed to work outside the home? Women could work until the got pregnant or in some cases, until marriage, but could not date and have sex while single or find themselves single the rest of their lives because the "good men" weren't interested in them after they'd been dating and having sex for years with many lovers? Sorry, I'm really not sure if that is what you are alluding to. 





Sorry, I separated those paragraphs in the wrong place. That was a dumb mistake and it made it look terrible. My fault completely.



In relation to the rest of what I read in your post, I commented below. Hopefully, I have not misinterpreted too badly. This part does not deal with the sex in detail, but in general to the rest of your post.





How much of that did you experience personally? How much did you see in your mother, and/or grandmother? Beyond your immediate family, how would you know of such things happening? How could you know if it was true for most marriages? 

My guess is, you were told many of these things and believed them with support from those who experienced them and saw them in your experiences. Could that be possible? 


I think, each woman, as an individual, will like something at least a little different in the bedroom. I think each will find that certain things are taboo, even for them. They may fantasize, but reality brings a different light on that fantasy. 

I'm guessing that, since I am not a woman or all women. I also am guessing that from conversations I've had with men. Some enjoy things that others do not. Some find some things disgusting while others believe them to be a necessity for good sex. 

Everyone seems to be different.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Ynot,
> I should have been more precise and added: in the context of marriage. As that was my intended meaning.
> 
> I will gladly respond - but before I would ask for a clarification. The bolded statement directly below seems to be a general depiction of behavior and not specific to marital behavior. Am I understanding you correctly? I am asking because 'taught and medicated' seems more general than: taught not to compete with women in marriage.
> ...


Boys who "act up" or otherwise can't sit still because they are full of energy are medicated because they are diagnosed as "hyperactive" or "autistic". The message that send to the other boys is to comply or get drugged. OTOH, active girls are encouraged to participate and compete. This general enculturation carries over to marriage.
Also to clarify, I was speaking specifically about the effects of these societal actions in regards to marriage. And once again have no idea what the number of premarital sex partners has to do with it. I wasn't talking about that so why you quoted me is beyond me and a question you will not answer. So please tie it together.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

MrsHolland said:


> I think putting into the words "so high" is actually incorrect. Women today will not be held down so low as women in the past. In the past wives had to basically put up and shut up, women could not work once married and they had little say in the running of their own lives. Now women are more able to be educated and have a career, they can follow their dreams which was until recently only the realm of men.
> 
> When you have a whole gender that was until recently held back and treated with such inequality then it should be no surprise that as the momento grows and women gain more equal rights and opportunities that things get shaken up a whole lot. Sadly of course in many parts of the world women have less and less rights and are treated with more and more violence against them.
> 
> ...


Sounds great! No argument from me. In fact that is something I have been saying throughout this thread. 
But while women have been lifted up, society still has the older expectations of men in regards to marriage. The last paragraph is most telling. The issue comes down to exactly the adjective "good" means in the context of being a good man. Because what I have saying is that the idea of a good man has different connotations for men than it does for women. Society tells men to be more like women (ie understanding, sensitive, caring, nurturing) while telling women to be more like men (competitive, aggressive, physical). Most men and women attempt to meet the expectations that come with being "good". The problem to me is that society's definition of "good" is based on unrealistic ideals of who and what men and women are. In the end reality will always win.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

The funny aspect of this thread is that it is difficult to find articles where women are actually wondering why younger men aren't interested in marrying. There are a slew of articles (mostly written by men) alleging this to be the case; but, where are the actual voiced concerns? It seems to be media generated.

Society gets blamed for a lot of things. When you consider that society consists of yourself, relatives, friends, neighbors and coworkers along with a large contingent of complete strangers, one has to wonder why anyone would allow 'society' to hold so much sway over their lives. As long as one remains within the constraints of the law, they can live however they choose.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Blondilocks said:


> The funny aspect of this thread is that it is difficult to find articles where women are actually wondering why younger men aren't interested in marrying. There are a slew of articles (mostly written by men) alleging this to be the case; but, where are the actual voiced concerns? It seems to be media generated.
> 
> Society gets blamed for a lot of things. When you consider that society consists of yourself, relatives, friends, neighbors and coworkers along with a large contingent of complete strangers, one has to wonder why anyone would allow 'society' to hold so much sway over their lives. As long as one remains within the constraints of the law, they can live however they choose.


Only those men & women who still care about marriage/ commitment... is going to be complaining about this.. 

This is one area I am happy to be old...and not have to deal with it....it was more commonplace in our day that a man would ask.. it's women like our daughter... if she dare dreams for a life similar to how she was raised...a husband / father who wants to devote himself to one woman for a lifetime.. who holds marriage as something important.. God help her.. 

I literally have to wonder if the way we've raised our children will hurt them... will they be left behind... one is already made fun of -if you aren't having sex , experiencing partners in your late teens.. like what is wrong with you...


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Based on what I am reading here from @MrsHolland and others, the prroblem isn't with women, it's with men. Women are now more willing to throw away a marriage if it isn't perfect or doesn't have great sex. Men tend to stick with it out of love and wanting to maintain the wedding vows. 

We need to be training our male children that they should divorce their future wife if the marriage isn't exactly as they want it to be. If they aren't getting GREAT sex whenever they want it, they should divorce and seek it elsewhere. 

Although I love my wife dearly, and we've been married for 21 years and have two kids together, I should divorce her because I don't get sex whenever I want it? Oh, and she's not always the best at washing dishes or folding clothes. Makes sense! I should go see a lawyer next week! Hmm, no, I'm too much in love with her and I do value the promises I made to her when we were married. 

I can't fathom why just about every thread around here devolves into a his needs/her needs rant. I would hope that there is enough variability within any gender to make broad generalizations somewhat useless. 

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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Only those men & women who still care about marriage/ commitment... is going to be complaining about this..
> 
> This is one area I am happy to be old...and not have to deal with it....it was more commonplace in our day that a man would ask.. it's women like our daughter... if she dare dreams for a life similar to how she was raised...a husband / father who wants to devote himself to one woman for a lifetime.. who holds marriage as something important.. God help her..
> 
> I literally have to wonder if the way we've raised our children will hurt them... will they be left behind... one is already made fun of -if you aren't having sex , experiencing partners in your late teens.. like what is wrong with you...


Is your daughter worried about finding a marriage partner? If these articles are to be believed, one of the reasons why young men aren't rushing to the altar is because of a dearth of virtuous women. Yeah, guys want to have sex but want to find a girl who hasn't. It's to be blamed on that nasty 'feminist movement'.

Kids can be idiots. You know this. Your kids need to hold their values close and let those idiots know that they respect themselves. You have done a fine job raising your kids - other parents could learn a thing or two from you and your Mr. 

When I was 14, I wanted to see a particular movie. Mom said "no, it isn't age appropriate for you". Me "so&so is going"; Mom "If so&so wore a pile of crap on her head, would you want to also?". The moral of the lemming story.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

There seems to be enough reality in those generalizations for them to continue to have life. When that changes, so will the rhetoric. 

This is the problem today. We refuse to believe what may actually be true, but call them generalizations with our noses stuck in the air as if the word is putrid to our senses. 

It isn't. Yet, broad generalizations about changing society is looked upon as good....as in the few responses about having choices and working and making equal pay and so forth. Those, in fact, are good and should be broad generalizations.

What suits current popular thought is what is accepted as "good" and "normal". "We all do it" or "how could you" is well used to influence those who find the commonplace boring and lifeless, yet comfortable. If it isn't pushing the boundaries previously set by "society", it is passe, blase', or harmful. 

That's fine, though it is nice to have an idea of what is actually going on and what the cause was/is. Men are usually left to catch up on these ideas. It's nice to have a thread where there is some openness and honesty. It isn't harmful, though it may be scary, unfamiliar, and shocking.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> The funny aspect of this thread is that it is difficult to find articles where women are actually wondering why younger men aren't interested in marrying. There are a slew of articles (mostly written by men) alleging this to be the case; but, where are the actual voiced concerns? It seems to be media generated.
> 
> Society gets blamed for a lot of things. When you consider that society consists of yourself, relatives, friends, neighbors and coworkers along with a large contingent of complete strangers, one has to wonder why anyone would allow 'society' to hold so much sway over their lives. As long as one remains within the constraints of the law, they can live however they choose.


Um, if YOU are married, then guess what? YOU allowed society to hold sway over your life. Like it or not, we live in the society where we are. In western society it is taboo to have sex with a 16 year old. In others it is an expectation. Also FTR, the laws that a society imposes are typically based upon the expectations of that society. Laws concerning marriage and divorce being one such example


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Funny, many of the women posting here are all about the newly found power that feminism and more recent societal changes have given women. Men have been knocked off their pedestal, allowing women the greater freedom and opportunity to pursue their life goals. I have no problem with that (as another poster has also opined). At the same time many of these same women (and their male apologists) refuse to recognize that while men have been knocked off the pedestal, the old expectations which make them "good" are still in play. When the men can't meet these expectations (ie the woman is unhappy) she is empowered to leave and often times rewarded by a court system that enforces laws that were written for a different era in which men still had a pedestal to stand on.
As another poster said, we do need to socialize men to pursue their own happiness, which includes not settling for being junior partners to be used as needed and discarded or shelved when not. I would hope that these same women would celebrate such a societal change instead of fighting it

Please note in the above I used the term "feminism" please also note that it is not capitalized, as I am not talking about the movement, but the idea that women do have rights, simply for no other reason than they are human beings albeit female human beings.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

I don't know that I have ever seen a perfect marriage. Although they may SEEM perfect to everyone else, there is usually a problem or two. If younger people (women?) are being taught that if their marriage isn't a perfect Disney fairytale then they need to divorce, then marriage is indeed doomed. The concept of "not settling" is very close to the concept of "not adapting" in that both result in a spouse bailing on the marriage without putting much effort into fixing it. 

As the father of two daughters and the husband of one wife, I am surrounded by females. I am all for feminism when it comes to equal pay and equal rights. But, if Feminism is pushing girls to only stay in marriage if it's a fairytale, then I'm certainly not for that. 

There was a time when I would 100% agree with what Blondi said about men wanting to sleep around, but wanting a woman who hasn't. I don't think that's the case anymore. Most guys I know understand that having a GF or wife that enjoys sex is more important than her number, assuming she is faithful. Even so, I teach my daughters that having sex is something special and that it often results in an emotional bond. As such, she should cherish it. I would tell a son the same thing. 

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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Blondilocks said:


> Is your daughter worried about finding a marriage partner? If these articles are to be believed, one of the reasons why young men aren't rushing to the altar is because of a dearth of virtuous women. Yeah, guys want to have sex but want to find a girl who hasn't. It's to be blamed on that nasty 'feminist movement'.
> 
> Kids can be idiots. You know this. Your kids need to hold their values close and let those idiots know that they respect themselves. You have done a fine job raising your kids - other parents could learn a thing or two from you and your Mr.


 Daughter is only 13... she is just starting to like boys... given her genes and upbringing...I would bet my life she's going to be similar to us... even our sons are...and yes....they do want the sort of woman who doesn't separate love & Sex, who can't do it.. because THAT is the sort of person she IS. 

The Majority of voices, blogs, articles & books ... outside of those of Faith (I try to be diligent to read BOTH sides) is making an argument that we are ALL non-monogamous...this won't be put back into a box... it's here to STAY. 

I just know when the typical guy starts sniffing around here... he WILL BE EXPECTING HER to put out.. I don't have my head in the sand... our daughter is not as Mouthy as I was as a teen... I laid it out there, what I expected and where I wouldn't  go... my husband is the one who stuck around....will she tell him "NO"-knowing everyone else is doing it, what if he's the popular guy, and she's enthralled, mushy in the knees...

There will be tremendous rejection, one after the other, if she goes against the normal flow of teen relationships.... this can wear anyone down, they'll start questioning why they even bother...in this process a loss of hope in men will slowly die while she joins the human race, then settles for the typical modern male... never putting a ring on it..."Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free".. the saying spews a lack of care for the woman, reduces her to a farm animal, there is nothing special about her, their intimacy, nor the honor of commitment.... yet one can't deny it's truth either... 



> When I was 14, I wanted to see a particular movie. Mom said "no, it isn't age appropriate for you". Me "so&so is going"; Mom "If so&so wore a pile of crap on her head, would you want to also?". The moral of the lemming story.


 Never heard of the lemming story...I don't think I've ever used this before.. Maybe it even sounds bad..but I've never much cared what they see -I mean I wouldn't be taking daughter to Shades of Grey..... but as teens...always been a curious one myself...I want to make up my own mind..... I want them to be informed, what's going on in society, hear all sides of an issue.... love discussions like that....we ask how they feel, what they would DO... sorta thing... they in turn listen to us... not much shielding goes on in our house.... 

The one area that is BIG to me was always.. the crowd our kids hang with... . friends are our 2nd biggest influencers in life..


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Daughter is only 13... she is just starting to like boys... given her genes and upbringing...I would bet my life she's going to be similar to us... even our sons are...and yes....they do want the sort of woman who doesn't separate love & Sex, who can't do it.. because THAT is the sort of person she IS.
> 
> The Majority of voices, blogs, articles & books ... outside of those of Faith (I try to be diligent to read BOTH sides) is making an argument that we are ALL non-monogamous...this won't be put back into a box... it's here to STAY.
> 
> ...


My oldest daughter is 14, almost 15, and hasn't been on a date yet. Nor does she seem overlly interested. I dread the day when that changes, but I know that day won't be far off. 

Last year, when she was 13, she had a 13 yo friend who at the age of 13 had already slept with 7 boys and had given BJs to about that many more. She has a messed up family, a mom who cheated, and an alcoholic, abilusive father. Even so, I could not wrap my head around this level of sleeping around for a 13 yo???? Almost as bad, she was trying to convince my dauughter of how much fun it is. Needless to say, I put an end to that friendship. 

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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Ynot said:


> Funny, many of the women posting here are all about the newly found power that feminism and more recent societal changes have given women. Men have been knocked off their pedestal, allowing women the greater freedom and opportunity to pursue their life goals. I have no problem with that (as another poster has also opined). At the same time many of these same women (and their male apologists) refuse to recognize that while men have been knocked off the pedestal, the old expectations which make them "good" are still in play. When the men can't meet these expectations (ie the woman is unhappy) she is empowered to leave and often times rewarded by a court system that enforces laws that were written for a different era in which men still had a pedestal to stand on.
> *As another poster said, we do need to socialize men to pursue their own happiness, which includes not settling for being junior partners to be used as needed and discarded or shelved when not. I would hope that these same women would celebrate such a societal change instead of fighting it*


 This is already happening...








...

I find this really unfortunate.. as now even more men, a growing segment of men shun even the older fashioned Traditional female....we're all no good too.. all put in the same basket.... even though a # of us do not want associated with the term "feminist" .... too many radical waved authors in the movement for me....


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

TX-SC said:


> My oldest daughter is 14, almost 15, and hasn't been on a date yet. Nor does she seem overlly interested. I dread the day when that changes, but I know that day won't be far off.
> 
> Last year, when she was 13, she had a 13 yo friend who at the age of 13 had already slept with 7 boys and had given BJs to about that many more. She has a messed up family, a mom who cheated, and an alcoholic, abilusive father. Even so, I could not wrap my head around this level of sleeping around for a 13 yo???? Almost as bad, she was trying to convince my dauughter of how much fun it is. Needless to say, I put an end to that friendship.


 Yep.. had a lady tell me the other day her daughter drives her kids to school every day....I always find that a little crazy.. I'll let the bus take ours...I asked why ... 

Answer: A girl was caught on the bus (Elementary grades mind you) giving a boy a BJ... not too much shocks us anymore , does it.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I don't know what the group is about. I guess finding freedom in a society being controlled more and more by laws and ideas created by some special interest groups. It doesn't matter to me. 

I think the reason that men are changing in what you say is the direction of mtgow, is the exact reason even those traditional thinking women are becoming less attractive. Men are changing due to the society they are faced with. 

It's like two angry billy goats butting heads. 

As for the men not even wanting traditional women, I think that they know that those traditional women aren't able to truly be traditional any more. They aren't really like the old traditional women because society will not let them, nor will it put up with them acting like they are. 

I think men are looking for something more conservative than the newest versions of society, yet expect to have to do more than great grandpa did in his marriage. It just isn't possible to go back to more than fifty years ago and know how to or be able to live the same. Few alive today have experienced that. 

Remember, even WWII women had to work in factories for men who went off to kill each other. Who was left? The men who couldn't pass muster and the women who didn't want to mostly be office workers or nurses, but were likely having a romp in the hay now and again with the husband off to war and possibly dead tomorrow.

Women worked hard in factories and proved themselves to be capable. That was more like 85 years ago, not 50. 

So, where did it start? Who knows? I don't think anyone knows for certain. It isn't the progress, it's the wrongful interpretation and huge expectations that make it so difficult today.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Yep.. had a lady tell me the other day her daughter drives her kids to school every day....I always find that a little crazy.. I'll let the bus take ours...I asked why ...
> 
> Answer: A girl was caught on the bus (Elementary grades mind you) giving a boy a BJ... not too much shocks us anymore , does it.


Unfortunately, no it doesnt. I went to a small school in a small town. This was mostly in the 80s. We heard stories of such things, but I never saw direct evidence of it. When I dated girls, it was not an expectation to "get lucky" until you had dated at least a few weeks, if not a month or more. At that time, at least in my southern town, the idea was, let's date a while and fall in love. Let's see if we are compatible then have sex. Now it seems more in the lines of, let's have sex first to see if we are compatible for dating. I dated my first GF for 4 or 5 months before we became intimate. The thing is, I didn't expect it to be anything else. 

When I met my wife, we dated for probably a month or two before we had sex. In fact, I didn't even try to kiss her until the second date. On the first date I just kissed her hand and told her I had a good time. I didn't want her to feel pressured. 

I think in today's dating scene, I might be too old fashioned. I hope and pray my marriage lasts until I am either dead or too old to care. 

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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ynot,
1. The raw 'number' of sex partners isn't the factor - just the notion that people enter marriage with more of an understanding of the range of how you feel in a good/meh/not good 'romantic' relationship. It provides people with a benchmark for what constitutes a reasonable level of happiness. That is all I was saying. Obviously real grown ups factor in the 'real world' in gauging how life is going. 

For example, if your husband is a real estate guy, and the real estate market just ran into the worst turbulence in 80 years - you might want to be supportive. 

2. People who get screwed over in a divorce often find their world view shifted (the 'shifts' I saw in the other thread were all to the good, those that I perhaps incorrectly perceive from your comments on this thread - not so much)

Maybe you dont mean it the way it came across - but the comments about girls being told to go for it, boys being told not to compete - those don't come across as marital comments at all. Those come across as general comments about socialization. And the acting up stuff - this is conflating uncontrolled disruptive behavior, including uncontrolled aggression, with controlled aggression. 

Controlled aggression and competitiveness is encouraged across a wide swath of society. I'm not a sociologist but it strikes me that when 95% of Fortune 500 CEOs are men - it becomes a bit hard for me to believe that men are being told to collaborate and women to compete. Or as you said: go for it

Those are general behavioral comments. And so this will be my last post on this thread since we are having a hard time understanding each other. 

Before I go I will add one 'stat' to the pot. While women initiate more divorces in general. They don't tend to ditch physically sick partners. That's a male specialty. Doesn't quite square with the idea of morally superior behavior. 

If you wish to get the last word on the thread in, feel free. But if you want to continue this - interaction - PM me. 





Ynot said:


> Boys who "act up" or otherwise can't sit still because they are full of energy are medicated because they are diagnosed as "hyperactive" or "autistic". The message that send to the other boys is to comply or get drugged. OTOH, active girls are encouraged to participate and compete. This general enculturation carries over to marriage.
> Also to clarify, I was speaking specifically about the effects of these societal actions in regards to marriage. And once again have no idea what the number of premarital sex partners has to do with it. I wasn't talking about that so why you quoted me is beyond me and a question you will not answer. So please tie it together.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Ynot,
> 1. The raw 'number' of sex partners isn't the factor - just the notion that people enter marriage with more of an understanding of the range of how you feel in a good/meh/not good 'romantic' relationship. It provides people with a benchmark for what constitutes a reasonable level of happiness. That is all I was saying. Obviously real grown ups factor in the 'real world' in gauging how life is going.
> 
> For example, if your husband is a real estate guy, and the real estate market just ran into the worst turbulence in 80 years - you might want to be supportive.
> ...


Again, I have no idea why you keep talking about raw numbers of sexual partners. YOU brought that up, Not me, yet you keep going back to it with no context, because that has NTOHING to do with anything I have posted. FTR, I am all in favor of marrying with experience. I have to hold back when I see "we waited until we were married" posts. So again, whatever point you are attempting to make talking about the number of partners is totally lost on me.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I think there is an issue with compatibility that he is struggling to understand. He sees women with great experience as a great catch since they are likely to be HD, which his wife had issues with. 

He is projecting and attempting to help you see what he means without disturbing other members. I get that. I don't want to make a fuss either. It does happen. 

I think compatibility lies within knowing the types of relationships each other has had, rather than the number. Those who dated for many years and in their forties would like to get married and view themselves as a catch will likely be compatible with men of the same background. Neither is wrong. They were being happy.

However, to think that a man who dated little would think a woman like that is a catch, once he realizes he is way over his head in understanding the opposite sex and she is frustrated as hell with his lack of empathy and understanding, and the sex dries up, I don't understand.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> This is already happening...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So again, there seems to be no shades of gray or for that matter any other colors aside from black and white. The MGTOW movement is a small segment of the male population. Why they choose to forgo interaction with the opposite sex (if that is what they are doing) is beyond me. It might be an excuse to hide from their own laziness or self doubt, I really don't know. As for me, I love women, I have no intention of cutting them out of my life. But again the MGTOW movement is a small segment of men, as is the PUA movement. Neither of those two groups represent anything close to what I suggested. Rather I am suggesting that we, as a society have to empower modern men, in the same way as we have empowered modern women, to seek their own happiness out and make it a priority in their lives.

That may not appeal to many women, who wish to continue to enjoy their time on the pedestal, benefitting from the outdated expectations placed on men. Because they may not enjoy being shelved or discarded when they themselves no longer make a man happy. It is a two way street, but the two way street is not promoted by our society at this time. Perhaps that will change and maybe these two movements (MGTOW and PUA) are the beginning. If you look back at the history of feminism, you will find, that in fact many of the early proponents of it, told women, "you don't need a man" which is no different that WGTOW, is it not? You will also find some of them advised women to use men to get what they want, which is not any different than the PUA movement. I understand some women may feel that being used sexually is a violation of who they are, but how is that any different than using a man to provide for your children and then discarding him when the kids are gone because he is no longer serves a purpose in your quest for happiness? I would say the sense of violation is very much the same.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> I don't think I could love (in the true sense) someone I didn't respect.


Respect is a cornerstone of love... without it, honest love cannot be built.

Those who understand this important and essential implementation, and take the time to meld and cement it into their relationship's everyday thoughts and actions, will find calm when disagreements try to create cracks in that foundation.

I smile when I read threads promoting this.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Ynot said:


> So again, there seems to be no shades of gray or for that matter any other colors aside from black and white. The MGTOW movement is a small segment of the male population. Why they choose to forgo interaction with the opposite sex (if that is what they are doing) is beyond me. It might be an excuse to hide from their own laziness or self doubt, I really don't know. As for me, I love women, I have no intention of cutting them out of my life. But again the MGTOW movement is a small segment of men, as is the PUA movement. Neither of those two groups represent anything close to what I suggested. Rather I am suggesting that we, as a society have to empower modern men, in the same way as we have empowered modern women, to seek their own happiness out and make it a priority in their lives.
> 
> That may not appeal to many women, who wish to continue to enjoy their time on the pedestal, benefitting from the outdated expectations placed on men. Because they may not enjoy being shelved or discarded when they themselves no longer make a man happy. It is a two way street, but the two way street is not promoted by our society at this time. Perhaps that will change and maybe these two movements (MGTOW and PUA) are the beginning. *If you look back at the history of feminism, you will find, that in fact many of the early proponents of it, told women, "you don't need a man" which is no different that WGTOW, is it not? You will also find some of them advised women to use men to get what they want, *which is not any different than the PUA movement. I understand some women may feel that being used sexually is a violation of who they are, but how is that any different than using a man to provide for your children and then discarding him when the kids are gone because he is no longer serves a purpose in your quest for happiness? I would say the sense of violation is very much the same.


I wouldn't speak either of these.... I am very much for the give & take of the male & female to enhance each other's lives...I don't have a problem with the word "need" in association with a loving, giving committed relationship...we are there to help each other, to support each other.. I am very much against either sex "using" each other, and easily throwing each other away if things get a little rough... it matters greatly that both are there to listen, meet each other half way, working together to get through the storm ... be self aware.. be willing to compromise.. care about each others needs.. it takes two.. always...

One should never be treated like a Princess while the other sucks it up.. It's very ugly when we come across the threads here where the husband is working 50 some hrs a week.. comes home & has to clean the house, do the dishes, while his wife is a stay at home Mom yet...then he doesn't get any sex either. that's outrageous to me!! We should be doing all we can on our end to help each other, to please each other..... so we have a smoother ride together... 

My husband's always treated me wonderfully.. can I say ..like a Queen....I mean were not rich or anything.. but he'd do anything for me.. the little things go a long way... his attitude... but he'd say I treat him just as good.. if I am on a Pedestal.. which he's told me yrs ago.. he's always had me on one... just typing this probably sounds bad.. you probably CRINGE reading it.. but my point it.. it's not lop sided...I greatly look up to him too, I don't take advantage of it.. his care pulls me in...neither is suffering here..... it's a beautiful feedback loop... that holds our happiness with each other, there is deep affection, a strong foundation.. we want the same things.. 

What do you propose ?? 

I agree both Movements can be extreme... they sprang to defend themselves against the worst of the worst... then the influences of the radicals , all the press beating at us... it all grows, gets out of hand...it's tainted many things, brought about all this red pill / blue pill, pitting the sexes against each other... I don't even understand it all.. 

At the same time.. I can see why we've come to this place...


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> I suppose you are speaking of men being the only ones allowed to work outside the home? Women could work until the got pregnant or in some cases, until marriage, but could not date and have sex while single or find themselves single the rest of their lives because the "good men" weren't interested in them after they'd been dating and having sex for years with many lovers? Sorry, I'm really not sure if that is what you are alluding to.
> 
> *The previous generation to mine, women were not allowed to work once married. That is a fact, nothing to do with sex. *
> 
> ...


Many men are not good lovers, not sure how else to put it. All the women I know want good sex but not that many of them are getting it.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Ynot said:


> Here is the reality. Most men are still held to and still adhere to the expectations of "traditional marriage". At the same time most women have accepted and adhere to expectations of "happiness". Often times, these expectations coincide with each other, especially when those involved are younger and have less experience. But as we age, mature and gain experience, those expectations tend to divert from each other. So while many women choose divorce as a means to "happiness", the men they leave behind are left devastated by the shattering of what they perceive to be the failing to meet their own expectations.


This is your quote which MEM was addressing. You say you are talking about marriage and the number of sexual partners is irrelevant. Indeed, you seem to be saying that sex has nothing to do with your quote. If you're talking about marriage, then you are definitely talking about sex because otherwise 95-99% of the threads on this board would not exist. It is safe to say that if one partner has limited sexual experience and does not find sex in marriage to be fulfilling then that person is not happy. Women are coming to the conclusion that they can expect a fulfilling sex life and that it greatly adds to their happiness. 

So, if men still adhere to the expectations of "traditional marriage" (I'm not sure exactly what parameters you are using to define a traditional marriage) and their wives now adhere to the expectation of "happiness", then a meeting of the minds needs to occur. Surely, you are not suggesting that women just need to suck it up and shut up, are you? Wouldn't both partners be happier if they can hash it out?


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Ynot said:


> Funny, many of the women posting here are all about the newly found power that feminism and more recent societal changes have given women. Men have been knocked off their pedestal, allowing women the greater freedom and opportunity to pursue their life goals. I have no problem with that (as another poster has also opined). At the same time many of these same women (and their male apologists) refuse to recognize that while men have been knocked off the pedestal, the old expectations which make them "good" are still in play. When the men can't meet these expectations (ie the woman is unhappy) she is empowered to leave and often times rewarded by a court system that enforces laws that were written for a different era in which men still had a pedestal to stand on.
> As another poster said, we do need to socialize men to pursue their own happiness, which includes not settling for being junior partners to be used as needed and discarded or shelved when not. I would hope that these same women would celebrate such a societal change instead of fighting it
> 
> Please note in the above I used the term "feminism" please also note that it is not capitalized, as I am not talking about the movement, but the idea that women do have rights, simply for no other reason than they are human beings albeit female human beings.


I absolutely think life is in some ways more complicated for men these days and probably quite confusing. I don't get what you mean by "expectations which make them "good" are still at play".

Men can get all arms in the air over life today but the fact is that women are now getting closer to having equal rights in regard to work etc. The men that are onboard with this are the ones that will make it through but there are plenty of men that are raised by misogynistic fathers and they are doing them a great disservice. 

I stand back and watch the teenagers and young adults around me and they have exactly the same struggles that we did at their ages, not much has changed in that regard. The main difference is how empowered and confident the girls are which is just so amazing to see. The boys on the other hand seem to be having a lot more mental health issues and this is a major concern. Although it was also the same when I was their age, males were the highest group to commit suicide then and they still are now.

I do think we have left the boys behind to a certain extent but in time that will rebalance. Boys these day are having to face all the rubbish that we did years ago as girls, they are now bombarded with advertising that shows photo shopped perfection. So I don't see society in general as the issue, if I were King of the world advertising would be the first thing to go, it causes so many self esteem and confidence issues, tis the scourge of the 21st Century.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

MrsHolland said:


> Many men are not good lovers, not sure how else to put it. All the women I know want good sex but not that many of them are getting it.


I understood that you believe many men are not good lovers. In these modern day marriages, of which your first one is a member, why didn't you know he was not a good lover before you married him? Didn't you have premarital sex with him? 

I know, I did with both my ex wives. If they didn't think they were having good sex, there really wasn't a whole lot else to get from me. I attempted no deception. Hell, I couldn't afford to deceive them. 

I wouldn't know how, either, since they were much more experienced than me with dating, sex, and life in general. 

I only give you my personal example to let you know that you aren't the only woman out there who left a man and thought the next guy was better in bed. I can't understand how a woman would not leave a man and have some issues with him, whether that is sex or some other area(s). 

I don't want you to feel alone in your pain. 

I'm sorry you have experienced poor sex from men. You didn't deserve that. You should only have had the very best sex available. And, it should have been just as you needed.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> I understood that you believe many men are not good lovers. In these modern day marriages, of which your first one is a member, why didn't you know he was not a good lover before you married him? Didn't you have premarital sex with him?
> 
> *Yes we had pre marital sex and it was all good for many years, I would not put him in the "bad lover" category, he goes into the category of "it's too much like hard work to keep an interesting sex life alive so I just won't bother". He is also in the category of men that was raised by a misogynistic father and when the excitement of being with an independent woman wore off he could not keep up with me so gave up. He was the one that did not put the effort into me/us after the kids arrived, I believe all he really wanted was the white picket fence and kids so when he got them he expected me to be satisfied with what we had which of course I was but I wanted the sex life to not only continue but to grow.
> 
> ...


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Stack said:


> My Light Went Out | The Huffington Post
> 
> Carly Israel says he was a kind man and an excellent father. Despite knowing it would destroy him and their three boys, she decided to "choose me" and divorce this good man. She list 10 gifts from a messy divorce which include: You get to really, truly know your ex; You get closer to God...
> 
> ...



It's sexual mismatch. 

She is HD and he is LD. They talked about it and he didn't change. She felt dead inside from a near sexless intimate marriage. Yes, he was a great non physical husband and father but he's also supposed to take care of his wife's needs as his own. That means, he takes care of his HD wife. He didn't and she left him. This is a good life lesson for LD spouses.

Hubby and wife can communicate to each other their sexual needs and desires. If the truly love each other, they make that effort regardless and what they alone want. It's not about what one person is comfy with, its taking care of each others needs as their own instead of themselves.

Sex isn't rocket science. It's called the "Internet". You find out how to please each other in minutes.


If a hubby is bad at oral sex and the wife loves it, he can do 2 things:

(01) man up, internet, learn and then give his wife amazing oral sex.

(02) he isn't into oral sex and doesn't make that effort.


Today, people are in it for themselves and don't really care. In my parents and grandparents time, they took care of each other.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

CuddleBug said:


> It's sexual mismatch.
> 
> She is HD and he is LD. They talked about it and he didn't change. She felt dead inside from a near sexless intimate marriage. Yes, he was a great non physical husband and father but he's also supposed to take care of his wife's needs as his own. That means, he takes care of his HD wife. He didn't and she left him. This is a good life lesson for LD spouses.
> 
> ...


Yes and no. Often people talk about sex as if it is like every other thing we do in life but it isn't. You cannot force someone to enjoy sex or the type of sex you like, it just won't happen.

MrH v.1 did not want the quantity of sex I wanted, this made me frustrated then angry then feeling unloved. Took me some time post divorce to come to understand that neither of us was wrong, we were just different but even if we stayed together we would never have become more aligned. Better to have set both of us free.

But sex is in a category of it's own, people that are not into it so much can not change that and it is wrong to expect them too. Trying to do that will only create more and more problems. 

Oh and I doubt in your Grandparents times people were any happier, they just put up with more and died earlier from internal stress.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> Yes we had pre marital sex and it was all good for many years, I would not put him in the "bad lover" category, he goes into the category of "it's too much like hard work to keep an interesting sex life alive so I just won't bother". He is also in the category of men that was raised by a misogynistic father and when the excitement of being with an independent woman wore off he could not keep up with me so gave up. He was the one that did not put the effort into me/us after the kids arrived, I believe all he really wanted was the white picket fence and kids so when he got them he expected me to be satisfied with what we had which of course I was but I wanted the sex life to not only continue but to grow.


So, he did what he knew worked previously(made you happy and satisfied), and something changed in you that made you want more and better sex. Did you ever figure out what changed that made you want more and see what was previously good, become less than stellar? 

I only ask this because in a previous post, you said something like, as long as the sex is good, money and many other things don't matter. 

Here, you say it was good, then you say you had all you wanted, and then the sex wasn't good enough. 

Honestly, Mrs. Holland, it doesn't make any sense to me. How could you know you wanted more and it would be better than what you had with your husband? If you don't know there is better sex, you can't compare it with what you have. 

I......simply am not getting enough of the picture here. 



> The many men are not good lovers is the experience that many women around me IRL and online talk about. We often hear about women that aren't good in bed but gloss over the fact that many men are selfish in bed and do not consider their partners needs.


I don't think I've ever had terrible sex. The only way it would be terrible would be for a woman to just lie there staring into space in a delusional trance-like state and softly whimpering. I've never experienced that. 

I have experienced how one woman likes something different from another. How one will find something disgusting that another does not. I'd never have known any of that, if I didn't experience it. Each one of those women were different. I had no way of gauging their abilities in bed, until I had sex with them. What is good for some, isn't so agreeable for another. Great sex is subjective. 

Oh, okay. I'm still scratching my head a bit, but I guess you are saying that all of these women around you IRL want a fantastic sex life, no matter what they have to do to get it? How do they know there is better out there than what they have? 




> It is not about the lack of sex itself, it is about inactions showing you that your partner does not care enough about you to put in the effort. I did end my marriage over this and it empowered me to know that I was either better off alone, living a life of NSA sex or to find a man that was an amazing lover, I went with the last option and would never settle for anything less again.


I don't remember mentioning anything about a lack of sex, Mrs. Holland. I have in other threads, but not in this one. Are you maybe recalling another post of mine and attempting to tie that in with my posts on this topic, as well? They are unrelated to my questions and posts here. 

If you think I am triggering, you are mistaken. I am simply trying to get to the bottom of this and you seem to have chosen me as your student. I guess maybe you find me almost there, but I need some further education? I don't know. 

On the other hand, there always seems to be a lack of communication between us that creates misunderstandings. I'm trying very hard to be as open and honest as I can with you, in an effort to thwart any hard feelings that may develop.




> There is no pain here, I am quite a realist and don't have a need to wallow in pain. ex and I have remained friends and as co parents we rock. Is 7 years post divorce for us and just recently we started on the discussion of what and why it all happened. I am in a good place, have no regrets and am at peace with my life. But thank you for your concern. I truly believe that one thing leads to the next and as long as we learn, grow and take responsibility for our part in where our life is at them there can be true peace.


I'm not really sure what a realist is. It seems that many many folks, men and women, live by what they believe. That may or may not be reality. It is usually a combination of a dream they perceive to be attainable and what is real. No one else on this site has such a fantastic life as you, to my knowledge. It all came together for you, it seems. 




> As should we all. I deserve everything my life has bought me so far, the good, bad and the ugly. I have a very fortunate life and am not so foolish as to not recognise the blessings I have. But I won't apologise for wanting it all which is what this thread is really about. People seem to balk at the notion of wanting/having it all however it is something I strongly believe in, The flip side is that if you want it all then you also have to give it all and to me that is where the big inbalance seems to be happening. Some people want, want, want but they are not so good at giving, I don't care which gender people are but I do believe in equality and equity, if you want it al then be prepared to give as much back. This is the recipe for a fulfilling life.


I don't think it's about wanting it all. It's about women who want it all. Men seem to be more along the lines of finding a good woman and staying, unless she is unfaithful. Today, though, it seems that men are taking a hard look at women who think like you and are saying no, I will not marry. It seems that your thoughts are pretty similar to the thoughts expressed previously that caused this lack of men for marriage. 

I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm saying that you, and possibly these women you write about, fit this narrative.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

MrsHolland said:


> Yes and no. Often people talk about sex as if it is like every other thing we do in life but it isn't. You cannot force someone to enjoy sex or the type of sex you like, it just won't happen.
> 
> MrH v.1 did not want the quantity of sex I wanted, this made me frustrated then angry then feeling unloved. Took me some time post divorce to come to understand that neither of us was wrong, we were just different but even if we stayed together we would never have become more aligned. Better to have set both of us free.
> 
> ...



If Mrs.CuddleBug came to me today, and said, I want to do this or that and its not something I'd love doing.....guess what? since I'm her hubby, I would do it with her and find out how to do it really great. But that's just me. Then I'm sure if I suggested something I'd like to do, she might be okay and get into it.

My main love language is Physical. So the more physical and yes also sex, the better. And also quality time.

I have no issues changing to meet Mrs.CuddleBug's needs but she must do the same for me. If she doesn't, then I stop.

When married, you are not your own anymore. That means your body is now his and her body is now yours.

My mom loved her feet rubbed etc....my Dad knew this Guess what? he rubbed her feet and more quite often......I talked to them about sex and they were on the same page, sexual match.

So I know my parents had a good sex life overall. I'm sure my dad learned that from my grandfather.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> If Mrs.CuddleBug came to me today, and said, I want to do this or that and its not something I'd love doing.....guess what? since I'm her hubby, I would do it with her and find out how to do it really great. But that's just me. Then I'm sure if I suggested something I'd like to do, she might be okay and get into it.
> 
> My main love language is Physical. So the more physical and yes also sex, the better. And also quality time.
> 
> ...


Don't forget to take into account the rape laws. You can't take what you want when you want it. That is not one of the definitions of love. 

If, one partner goes to the other and says, "Honey, I'd like to talk about sex. I would love for you to perform cunnilingus on me, but what you are doing isn't really getting me there. Would you mind me showing you what to do to please me?"

I guess the more open and honest the couple is, the better this will go over. There must be trust there. This has to have happened over the course of their relationship, little by little, I'd imagine. Otherwise, it may not be received well. In those instances, I find it very difficult to believe that one of those partners never broached the subject of sex, while still dating or some time before marriage. 

You seem to post like most folks are that stupid. I find that a little offensive and arrogant. I figure you don't mean it that way. You just don't realize what you are saying. 

Glad to see you around again.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> So, he did what he knew worked previously(made you happy and satisfied), and something changed in you that made you want more and better sex. Did you ever figure out what changed that made you want more and see what was previously good, become less than stellar?
> 
> I only ask this because in a previous post, you said something like, as long as the sex is good, money and many other things don't matter.
> 
> ...


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Don't forget to take into account the rape laws. You can't take what you want when you want it. That is not one of the definitions of love.
> 
> If, one partner goes to the other and says, "Honey, I'd like to talk about sex. I would love for you to perform cunnilingus on me, but what you are doing isn't really getting me there. Would you mind me showing you what to do to please me?"
> 
> ...




Obviously I'm not saying rape.....really?!

But when married your body is now not yours and vise versa. That means taking care of each others needs as your own. It seems today, everyone is in it only for themselves.

So if the wife has fantasies, the hubby says, I'm not into that. Or if the hubby has fantasies, the wife says, I'm not into that. Take care of each others needs. That's what being married is all about instead of nope, I'm not into that, nuts to him or her. And that's when the problems start.

Plus when married, you should want to try new things, spice it up, more risky, together.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> This is your quote which MEM was addressing. You say you are talking about marriage and the number of sexual partners is irrelevant. Indeed, you seem to be saying that sex has nothing to do with your quote. If you're talking about marriage, then you are definitely talking about sex because otherwise 95-99% of the threads on this board would not exist. It is safe to say that if one partner has limited sexual experience and does not find sex in marriage to be fulfilling then that person is not happy. Women are coming to the conclusion that they can expect a fulfilling sex life and that it greatly adds to their happiness.
> 
> So, if men still adhere to the expectations of "traditional marriage" (I'm not sure exactly what parameters you are using to define a traditional marriage) and their wives now adhere to the expectation of "happiness", then a meeting of the minds needs to occur. Surely, you are not suggesting that women just need to suck it up and shut up, are you? Wouldn't both partners be happier if they can hash it out?


Unless in your mind you totally equivocate sex and marriage, then I am still lost. I said NOTHING about the number of partners. So I am still lost as to what either of you are talking about.

As to my post, by "traditional marriage" I am referring to the idea that the man is supposed to be the provider for his family and work 50 to 60 hours a week to ensure a proper dwelling for his family and see all of their needs are met. Nothing at all to do with sex or the number of sexual partners one may or may not have had prior to getting married. So again, wherever you got that from is beyond me. Perhaps you can explain? Because MEM certainly never did.
I agree a meeting of the minds needs to occur. As I said, early in the relationship these two diverse interests tend to coincide - the man happily provides for his family and the wife is happy he does so. Then over time as the family grows, needs grow, expenses increase, the man is now working 50 to 60 hours a week, driving an hour each way so his children can attend the right schools, the family can live in the right house, trying to maintain the life style etc, the woman has other wants and needs and finds herself living the humdrum life and is no longer happy and jettisons the poor dude, because he has been laboring under the illusion (actually delusion) that being a "good" husband has been what is required of him, while she has only been concerned with her happiness. Happiness which now escapes her because she is married to this boring guy who only works and is too tired to live the lifestyle that will make her happy. See early on - interests coincide, not so much later on.
No one said anything about women "needing to just suck it up". But at the same time women need to understand that the boring, reliable shlub that they find themselves married to, was in part a result of their own doing. Yes hashing it out might work, but I wonder how many women are willing to truly make a similar sacrifice in order to make it work. Given the growing numbers of divorces, mainly filed women, I would say the answer is a resounding no. 
So my solution is to socialize men to think the same way - look for your own happiness. But again that is another thing that I doubt many women would be to keen on.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

MrsHolland said:


> I absolutely think life is in some ways more complicated for men these days and probably quite confusing. I don't get what you mean by "expectations which make them "good" are still at play".
> "Good" in the eyes of society which make them marriage material, as opposed to misogynists
> Men can get all arms in the air over life today but the fact is that women are now getting closer to having equal rights in regard to work etc. The men that are onboard with this are the ones that will make it through but there are plenty of men that are raised by misogynistic fathers and they are doing them a great disservice.
> Actually in many ways women are beyond having "equal rights". Besides having more recently acquired special rights in the work force, if they choose to marry, they often benefit from special rights in regards to divorce, support, custody and visitation that are relics of days gone by
> ...


We absolutely have left boys behind. In fact beyond leaving them behind, we are pushing them down even farther. Advertising and TV are one aspect of that, but it happens in schools, in sports, and elsewhere as well. My solution? We stop creating special rights for any group just to make things fair or to right past wrongs and instead start treating people as individuals, each of whom as an obligation to themselves and to society to selfishly pursue their own best interests. We would be far ahead in regards to many issues if we did that.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Only those men & women who still care about marriage/ commitment... is going to be complaining about this..
> 
> This is one area I am happy to be old...and not have to deal with it....it was more commonplace in our day that a man would ask.. it's women like our daughter... if she dare dreams for a life similar to how she was raised...a husband / father who wants to devote himself to one woman for a lifetime.. who holds marriage as something important.. God help her..
> 
> I literally have to wonder if the way we've raised our children will hurt them... will they be left behind... one is already made fun of -if you aren't having sex , experiencing partners in your late teens.. like what is wrong with you...


Your daughter is collateral damage from the "feminist revolution". It is now impossible for a man who wants a woman like her to be sure that she will remain as she is after marriage. The court system and most of society would be on her side if she decided to take him to the cleaners, so any man who would take such a chance would be playing Russian Roulette with a gun that had at least half the cylinder full of bullets.

I hope the feminists are happy now that they have what they wanted.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Ynot said:


> Funny, many of the women posting here are all about the newly found power that feminism and more recent societal changes have given women. Men have been knocked off their pedestal, allowing women the greater freedom and opportunity to pursue their life goals. I have no problem with that (as another poster has also opined). At the same time many of these same women (and their male apologists) refuse to recognize that while men have been knocked off the pedestal, the old expectations which make them "good" are still in play. When the men can't meet these expectations (ie the woman is unhappy) she is empowered to leave and often times rewarded by a court system that enforces laws that were written for a different era in which men still had a pedestal to stand on.
> As another poster said, we do need to socialize men to pursue their own happiness, which includes not settling for being junior partners to be used as needed and discarded or shelved when not. *I would hope that these same women would celebrate such a societal change instead of fighting it*
> 
> Please note in the above I used the term "feminism" please also note that it is not capitalized, as I am not talking about the movement, but the idea that women do have rights, simply for no other reason than they are human beings albeit female human beings.


Your *hope *would be sadly misplaced. In the US, anyway, women's interests are put above men's as a matter of law. Look up the Duluth model of domestic abuse... but don't do it right before you go to bed, or you will have nightmares.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> This is already happening...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The problem is that the legal system in the US is so biased against men who get married (or heaven forfend, sire children) that this is a rational response.

I wish it weren't true, but it is.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Ynot said:


> We absolutely have left boys behind. In fact beyond leaving them behind, we are pushing them down even farther. Advertising and TV are one aspect of that, but it happens in schools, in sports, and elsewhere as well. My solution? We stop creating special rights for any group just to make things fair or to right past wrongs and instead start treating people as individuals, each of whom as an obligation to themselves and to society to selfishly pursue their own best interests. We would be far ahead in regards to many issues if we did that.


Maybe there is a difference in our cultures. in Aussie the courts are gender neutral when it comes to divorce. there is a set formula for child support and it is based on income not gender. Co parenting is usually 50/50 where both parents choose this and are suitable parents. We do not have alimony.

Women here do not have any "special rights" in the work place unless you consider the right to work in an environment free of sexual harassment a special right but this actually goes both ways, sexual harassment is illegal from either gender. 

We do still have pay inequality for the genders and shamedly it has actually increased recently. 

I have kids of both genders and treat them with equity as opposed to equality. IMHO equity is a better equaliser than equality, we seemed to have missed the mark with this across the broader population. But to be truly about equity then we would have to look at the individual as opposed to the gender, something I am all for. I am a Feminist in the true sense of the word which means a better world for all, not putting one gender above the other.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

tech-novelist said:


> The problem is that the legal system in the US is so biased against men who get married (or heaven forfend, sire children) that this is a rational response.
> 
> I wish it weren't true, but it is.


I hadn't really pay any attention to that Meme before you reposted it. But wow! I am sure not many men have an issue with most of the "traditional lifestyle" until you get to the etc/etc part. I am assuming the euphemism of etc/etc was used instead "getting divorced, losing most everything you worked for, living in a crap hole and trying to recover your sanity after you are summarily discharged for cause" Yeah I can now see why some men might choose to go their own way. It is sad that this is considered misogynistic, but when a woman decides she doesn't need a man, "You go girl!"


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> As I said earlier, 7 years post divorce and we are only now starting to tippy toe into the discussion about why/what happened, I think we both need closure and now that we are no longer romantically or emotionally involved with each other then possibly we can have that conversation. I need to absolve both of us of our self inflicted guilt.
> To be clear, my drive did not change and I was honest about what I wanted, he on the other hand enjoyed being higher drive than his base line for some time but then he (as many people do) went back to his base line which left me confused and upset, he could not handle that so the problem got worse.
> 
> 
> ...



Well, you said you discussed things with him about sex, which seems to have been the major issue, but these two quotes seem to be in conflict with that. 

You did say that he didn't want to talk about those things. Had you talked about them before marriage and later in the marriage, he decided not to talk any more? 

Of course, you won't do it by yourself, will you? You will take your current husband along to the discussion. Won't you? Doesn't seem appropriate any other way. 

That is why I sort of find what you say to be self-serving and unnecessary, unless you need to see his reaction when you finally show him you are desirable and by someone you never expected to get. It would make even more sense, if his new wife, someone less pretty or accomplished than you, was there as well. 

7+ years? Maybe it took that long for both of you to get over each other enough to talk? You did say it was a good and happy marriage, except the sex seemed to tail off when you still wanted it. That must have been difficult to take. I mean that is a huge amount of rejection. Many women have to go out and prove to themselves through plenty of dating and compliments of all kinds that they are desirable. I would think that would be hell and it would be tough to talk to him alone, face to face. 




> So men are happy to settle?


I think most men who are in the market to get married, or at least in the past, tried to make a decision based on being with that woman the rest of his life. I think, as another member mentioned, men have some innate need to take care of their wife. It may be learned over centuries and millennia of time. I don't know. 

I think they took asking a woman to marry him, very seriously. Did you know, at one time, men were responsible for their wife's behavior? Yeah, he could go to jail if she did something wrong. But, I digress.

So, I think most men don't change their mind as easily because they chose the best compatible match they could find at the time. It is then probably, in some degree, a matter of self-respect. Also, the few things that may have not been to their liking, they probably just let go or learned to work around. We can't change others. You've even stated that previously.

Finally, I think they know it is not all that easy to rebuild. It becomes more difficult the older we become. I think that is mostly due to not having enough time to grow to a deep lasting loving relationship. This is something that takes time and hard work. 

It is wonderful when you get there. There is nothing like it. It is somewhat delusional and somewhat realistic. 

No, I don't think it is settling......at all. Women seem to settle, then decide they want change. Men seem to deal with what they have, the best they can. When they know they can do no more, or what they have done has not been good enough, or when they know they simply can do no more.....they give up. They stay, in many instances, hoping for some miracle, but it is usually in vain.





> Honestly I don't see the evidence IRL of men not wanting to marry, as stated earlier we have too many weddings to attend this year. As for my own experience I am with a man that also wants it all and bravo to him, I respect that about him, he knows he is worth it.



Maybe it's just those men who have a realists ideals? They usually come from a place of pain and suffering. 




> if divorce taught me anything it is that as people that live in the "free world" we have an obligation to ourselves to not wallow in pity but to take action and be pro active, go get what it is we want.


I would think it would make you more sympathetic to those who have less. It does me. Maybe that's why I don't think that I deserve everything? I think I am lucky to have the opportunities I do. I don't believe I make my opportunities, but make myself available to opportunities that may come my way. I am thankful for the people in my life, even the rotten evil ones, because they taught me that they believe reality is for others and fantasy is for me. I think I am entitled to nothing, but I am grateful for what I have. I have faith in nothing of this earth. I am thankful for that lesson. 




> But then again I have a very left of center view on marriage which is that we as humans set ourselves up for epic failure by expecting marriage to be a life long thing. No where else in life do we feel so bound as to put up and shut up. If a marriage or relationship is working then all power to those involved, if it is not working even after putting in a huge effort then I say move on, set yourself and your partner free to live life to the fullest.



I do believe we humans have a desire to be with one person the rest of our lives. You would not have gotten married again, if that were not the case. Unless you were in it for the money you can get from him, or to force him to only have sex with and interact on an emotionally intimate level with you. Wouldn't that be a bit on the side of selfish and controlling? I don't see you that way, so I'm not sure of my assessment. I'm guessing you are thinking that as you get older and become less desirable and less interested in sex, you will want to have someone to talk with and spend time with who isn't a competitive lady friend. 

Competition in marriage seems like a love killer. 

I feel bound to put up and shut up with members here at TAM someties, with bosses and coworkers, with others who annoy me, and with family and friends I don't find completely compatible. The only difference I see is that we can more easily get rid of a marriage partner than we can a good job, reliable friends who won't tell our secrets(sure they won't), or a favorite pet.

None of these folks did nearly as much for us as our marital partner, unless he or she was mentally ill or something terrible. 

When it gets more than we can handle, or more than we want to handle, we do leave. Marriage is the same, now. In some instances, leaving is really the only option. Sometimes running is the best option. I think we have rugswept too long by then.

I think this has all been said by others previously. I feel like a parrot.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

CuddleBug said:


> *Obviously I'm not saying rape.....really?!
> 
> But when married your body is now not yours and vise versa. That means taking care of each others needs as your own. It seems today, everyone is in it only for themselves.
> *
> ...


I understood_ the spirit _of your post... what you said about our bodies belonging to each other....not every couple is going to feel this way, it probably goes back to prior experiences even..if a woman's been abused at the hands of a man, a former lover, she'd not be able to ever feel this way, as the trust would be very difficult...

I posted something like you did years ago.. and got slammed by a poster here... her experience with her husband was very different over mine... after hearing where she was coming from.. I could see how that COULD be "very wrong"...as her husband was demanding sexually, bordering abusive...he was a selfish man..

I've never experienced anything even close to that... so when I read something like this.. I find it beautiful...it's about the sharing...the intimacy from a pure place of love, and giving....


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> Obviously I'm not saying rape.....really?!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well hell yes! I wanted that, too. Didn't happen. There was no compromise or sympathy in her. She could not see it any way other than the way she understood. She was emotionally incapable of that level of understanding.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> Well hell yes! I wanted that, too. Didn't happen. There was no compromise or sympathy in her. She could not see it any way other than the way she understood. She was emotionally incapable of that level of understanding.



Let me just expand on this a little for you, bug. 

The women I've known have come to me to talk about someone in their life that has hurt their feelings in some way. They will talk until they hear me say that I believe that person who hurt them was a jerk or something like that. I don't want to use the filter, if I can help it. 

Had I said anything more than I sympathized with them and they were correct, I would have gotten an earful. And, of course I messed up. I'm a man, after all. 

That didn't solve their problems. It didn't even give me an idea of what was really going on or what they planned to do about it! I had to wait for that, in almost all cases.

So, when someone says they have talked to their husband, I think in the terms that I know from experience. She'd come to me and tell me what she wanted done. If I didn't comply, then she was so hurt and I was unwilling to meet her needs in any way. I was unsympathetic and controlling because I would not "compromise" and give her what she wanted. 

Is that really compromise??? Darn, I'm not sure. Okay, it's not. 

If she was the more gentile type, she would kind of sort of tell me what she wanted sort of in a way if she could stand to say the words to me in the light of day sort or. Don't you understand me? Why? I told you and you don't listen to me. You don't know how to talk to women. 

Okay.........:scratchhead: Thinking.....I don't know. What did she say? I know she's pissed about something. What does she want from me? If she would just get the courage to talk nicely, I'd get it. I'm not that big of a dolt....

I guess you've been blessed with a woman that is upfront, open and honest, even when it might include damaging information. Damaging to your respect for her or which might cause you to, in her mind, judge her. Oh my, that's terrible. Places hands over an open mouth and gasps. 

If you are judged, ladies, it's time to get some counseling or have a heart to heart talk. Maybe you two are not compatible? Maybe you didn't know him that well? Maybe you should be divorced, or maybe you should chalk it up to??? I don't know what......

If a woman is judging me, I know when I first speak with her. How can you have missed that? Because you felt something in your heart.....and maybe your loins???

Thththth that's all folks...........tm.......


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> Well, you said you discussed things with him about sex, which seems to have been the major issue, but these two quotes seem to be in conflict with that.
> 
> *No, I said he refused to discuss anything about our sex life and sex in general.*
> 
> ...


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