# Betrayed Spouse - Am I Coming Out of the Fog?



## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Long story short - husband had 3 month online and 4 day physical affair Oct - Dec. Told me in Dec he wanted a divorce, then said he didn't but that OW would cause a lot of damage if he didn't leave me, but didn't want to (we have 2 young children). THat was him trying to cover his tracks not realizing it was not going to go away and everything would be just fine like he and OW thought. If ever there was a fog, he was deep in the middle about 10 feet thick. So between Dec and early Mar, he went back and forth and made me believe that he was sorry and it was all about us now...came clean in Mar that he has started talking to her again after 2 weeks off in Jan, planned to stay with me and he loved me but wanted the cheap thrill. Has been very remorseful since and making major life changes. No conact since last confession - yes - he did confess and I did not know - suspected though. Had cheated one time very early in our 16 year marriage (I knew about and forgave him). He told me in December after this blew up about one other time about 10 years ago. Neither of the first 2 were more than a screw (but no less damaging). This last one almost lead to divorce. I never contacted OW (my children's safety is more important, although it pains me some now I did not expose her). She is psycho. Husband shows remorse and says he was so stupid and hates himself, and we have been doing pretty good for the most part recovering and moving past. I finally told him I forgave him and that the past is the past but never again. So now we are in recovery, and I am like "Holy crap - did this really happen - I know it has, I have been living it, I have cried the tears and wondered what was going to happen from one day to the next. I have sacrificed much, emotionally, physically, spiritually - been through it, but now that we are moving forward, I am like "for real - how does that happen - what am I doing?" So I want to continue recovery, but I feel like I have just been slapped upside the head wondering what just happened over the last 6 months. Is this normal? I am a bit angry again and wanting to expose, but what good would it do, and maybe too much time has passed for it to even matter...and that would mean that I have not moved past it. I just feel like Jim Carrey in the Truman Show - like everything I thought was real wasn't, and now I have to figure out a way to resume a life that is very much real but that shouldn't be - does that make sense? Is this normal? Does it mean anything? Is it just a part of recovery? I've had a lot of triggers over the last month - 2 birthdays, 1st anniversary after affair, 6 months since DDay and 3 month since last contact on same day. I am having a WTF moment and can't shake it. Again, yes, we have been doing pretty good considering only 3 months since last contact....but now this. How do I shake it off?


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

I'm so sorry for what you are going through.

I regret that I do not have any positive words for you. We train people how to treat us, and you've apparently trained him that sleeping around on you is fine, and that you'll get over it.

Three times, at least, in 16 years, and that's what you know about?

You need to sit down and think about what you like about your marriage. If the pros outweigh the cons, then you just have to learn to live with it. It not, you have to plan something else.

I'm sorry this sounds so harsh. But really? You seem like you just keep taking it.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Thanks for your honesty. I partially agree with you - let me say why. I did not know he had cheated more than once until December when he said he wanted a divorce. It was at that time that I said there had to be someone else (and there was - she moved on him fast and he caved), and when he said he wanted to stay, I asked him if there were any other times and he admitted to the other one I did not know about. I could only process the current one at the time - I was dealing with the recent death of my brother from just a few weeks earlier. I went through all the emotions that a blindsided BS is hit with, plus I had 2 children to think about. So, while I did not allow him to think this behavior was ok (and we have since talked extensively - he admitted that at no point was it ever OK and that he was just weak got his ego fed and caved - lame, I know. Anyhow, as for him going back and forth from Dec - Mar - I knew of 2 times he started talking to her again, and yes, I still moved towards R, because he is my husband, because he is my children's father, and because of all of the stories I read here on TAMS about the FOG and how a person pretty much has to wean themselves from their AP because they basically have their head up their booty and if given a chance, they may just get it out. I thought in Jan that he said his last goodbye, but then admitted that he started talking to her again 2 weeks later via text and email. Said that he loved me but she was like a bad drug, and then in Mar told me that he had texted her for the last time that day after having an aha moment while trying to reconcile with me but still in contact w/her. I took my rings off that night, thought about it, and told him in the morning that what he did was unacceptable, that if he ever has any contact with her again I would expose them both. Said that I am not putting up with his weakness anymore, that he needed to get help, that I did not want him if he could not be 100% committed to me and our family, and that if knew he could meet my requirements for us he could put the rings back on my finger - and he put the rings back on and has made some major changes since then for the better. I still know we have a ways to go, but it just takes me back to my original question - is what I am feeling normal? If he screws up again, I made it clear that there will be no us and I will not be around to pick him up when he fails and screws up his life with work and his children. If he keeps on the straight and narrow, will I keep feeling like this? I don't know what I am feeling. I almost can't belive that what happened did, and wonder if this is normal 3 months into R. What might he be dealing with? He said he was totally done with her 3 months ago when he last fessed up - and has been depressed with a lot of self hate.....is that normal?


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## muttgirl (Mar 23, 2012)

It almost sounds like you want to trust and believe him so badly you are not really considering life a month, a year, etc. down the road. Why would you think that he is now telling the truth after lying so many times before? Do you want to live with that doubt all the time? If that doesnt bother you, you are incredibly forgiving but very naive. The next time he screws up he will tell you right away, wait for you to find out, or just tell you when he feels like hurting you some more with the tale. I can tell you love him, but what makes you think he values you and your loyalty to him?


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

I don't even know what I want to say or ask...feeling numb. In R - yes, but for some reason I want to kick the crap out of him and scream at him until his ears bleed.....maybe because I took the high road, and what I thought was the right road to save our marriage from the beginning. I did not think that being crazy and violent at the time would have given us a chance, and now I feel like I missed out on that boat too - missed the boat to expose her to her family/friends/boyfriend and give her a taste of her own medicine and missed the boat for him to really feel like he lost something. I know he is remorseful and has made changes, and I know that he hurts, but none of it because I did anything. Did I do the right thing by not doing anything really? Is this normal for me to feel angry 3 months into R? At times I feel like i lost everything and they lost nothing (I know she didn't). I do want to move on and I do want my marriage, but I am angry all over again.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

For me living apart from my wife during the week makes R even more difficult but we are slowly making it.

You are normal. 

I would have exposed it and still would but that is me. My wife is still pis*ed and very upset that I made her call her family and tell them what she did. She really is upset over that. I could give a rat's as*. She did nothing in 2010 with her sexualy online EA and I kept it a secret. My wife was not "forced" to call her family, she could have said no and walked. But I was not going to put up with her doing to me this time and it went PA, what she did to me in 2010 with all the lies and more lies and more lies.

So we each walk this path in our own way but in many ways our reactions, feelings, thoughts and actions are very similar. It is like death. As a chaplain I have sat with many dying folks over the years and each person faces death on their own, no matter how many people are in the room. In every case it is very similar. I can tell in most cases when a person has minutes left on this earth. I knew when my father was dying in February I saw something in him and told the family that dad just had minutes left. We gathered around the bed and within about 10 minutes he was gone. 

It is the same with us. We go through the cycles the roller coaster ride of emotions. The doubts, the fears, the hopes, and all sort of other emotions and for me I am no longer asking if it is normal.

For me it is the question and why am I the fuc* here? Why did she do this? What did I do to deserve this pain? Why can't I feel good about leaving her and move on with my life and find a wonderful woman who will understand me and love me for who I am? Am I a fool for staying? I know what D is. I live it every week when I am in my stinking apartment with nothing to do. No dog to greet me. No boys there when I get in the door. No wife to hug me. I only get that on the weekends. 

So right now our normal is looking at that SOB who stole our joy and trying to R and walking in suck each day trying to figure out what the hel* just happened.

And there will be those (some I have come to love on here) who will say why go through that misery? Because I know that D is not any brighter and we hope in some way to get that joy back. Maybe it is a freaken pipe dream and somedays I do not even see it as a dream but a freaken nightmare that I wish I could wake up from.

I remember one time in the E.R. I was a chaplain in a hospital and I was standing next to the cardiologist as she literally was pumping a guys heart with her hands. They popped his chest due to a stab wound. One E.R. doctor told me that in 40 years of practise he only ever seen this done once before. I was standing right next to the cariologist watching her frantically trying to keep this drug dealer alive with her hands wrapped around the guys heart, pumping it. We have been stabbed in the heart and over time we may heal. But right now we are in the E.R.

Hang in there Sunny, hugs.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

What is your husband doing to convince you that you should even consider remaining with him after all the years of lying and cheating?


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Thorburn - thans again - yes - we are walking in suck (I don't think that was a typo), because it does - every day. Some days are better than others. M - F is always worse when you are not near them - another crazy part of this mess. He was exposed to his mom/sister right away - his mom was here watching our girls the night I got back from a trip and he told me he wanted a divorce. My parents know because the OW posted it on my dad's Facebook page. Just thinking of that I want to kick her a** now  Hope - He has told me that if he were me he would leave, that if anyone ever did what he did to me to our daughters that he would kill them and bury them where no one would find them. He knows how bad he was and how he screwed up and he is paying for it having to live with that and knowing that I am a damn good wife. He asked me for the chance for him to fix us, our marriage and give us a happy life. We started church, he quit drinking and he is more attentive to our girls (has been great with them) but has been had bouts of where he just can't stand himself and says it has nothing to do with how he feels about me or us, but how he feels about himself. So I guess he is not trying to convince me, but is asking me. I am making the choice because I do love/hate him, I love our family, and I love our girls and they love their father. This is my last hurrah - it works or it does not. I want it to, and I will not be so kind if it does not. I just know that it will not be because of me - so I guess that is why I am back on here. How I handled it - I feel I saved us enough to get us this far and give us a fighting chance, but now I feel like fighting to kick som a**. I am angry about the whole thing again. I am not naive, and I hate how betrayal has changed me to some extent, but I somehow can still hold on to hope and faith. I love him, but I am angry - maybe at her, maybe him, but I just want it to go away.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Funny how expensive a "cheap thrill" can be, in reality. They can cost respect, love, integrity, health, relationships, families...


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Matt - so true! I know he is feeling it, but right now I am back feeling like I am the only one who has payed for his mistakes. I just read the thread about karma - I half feel like a bad person for wanting something bad to happen to her - just for her to lose her comfortable life that she went straight back to because she was not exposed. As for him, I would feel like crap too if I did to him what he did to me. Makes you wonder, but somehow I do still love him and pray that we can get through this without too many more bad days for either of us. I think if he could just feel like i have felt for a day, I would never have a doubt that he would ever cheat again.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Looking, would you mind breaking down your posts into paragraphs? It's hard to read in such big blocks. Thanks!

Have you been to therapy yet?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And what has he done to make it up to you? What extraordinary precautions?


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Just read what I wrote - do I think he will cheat again - no, but that is my heart. My head tells me and past experience tells me anything is possible...I hate that feeling....betrayal makes you feel things you don't want to. My heart and my mind fight sometimes - that is the suck that we deal with. But, if I don't go with my heart, what chance do I have?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

LookingForTheSun said:


> Matt - so true! I know he is feeling it, but right now I am back feeling like I am the only one who has payed for his mistakes. I just read the thread about karma - I half feel like a bad person for wanting something bad to happen to her - just for her to lose her comfortable life that she went straight back to because she was not exposed. As for him, I would feel like crap too if I did to him what he did to me. Makes you wonder, but somehow I do still love him and pray that we can get through this without too many more bad days for either of us. I think if he could just feel like i have felt for a day, I would never have a doubt that he would ever cheat again.


Then expose her.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

LookingForTheSun said:


> So I want to continue recovery, but I feel like I have just been slapped upside the head wondering what just happened over the last 6 months. Is this normal? I am a bit angry again and wanting to expose, but what good would it do, and maybe too much time has passed for it to even matter...and that would mean that I have not moved past it. I just feel like Jim Carrey in the Truman Show - like everything I thought was real wasn't, and now I have to figure out a way to resume a life that is very much real but that shouldn't be - does that make sense? Is this normal? Does it mean anything? Is it just a part of recovery? ... I am having a WTF moment and can't shake it. Again, yes, we have been doing pretty good considering only 3 months since last contact....but now this. How do I shake it off?


It's normal to be uncertain about things. It probably means you haven't addressed the problems at the heart of this marriage breakdown. 

He chose to cheat, lie, and manipulate you and that's on him. Those are all things you're both going to have to deal with. You need transparency, honesty, the feeling that you're starting over with unsullied materials. If you haven't exposed and you know he's gone underground before, then how can you be sure you've killed the affair? It is normal to want to expose, like opening all the doors and windows and letting air and sunlight in to dispel the shadows and the bacteria and whatever else has been festering in that foggy space. I would encourage you to expose. You'll feel better. You'll see your h's true colors and determine whether or not he is actually remorseful or committed, too. You have not opened it all up yet.

However, there had to be some problems in the marriage to contribute to your problems together. Blame is pointless. There are two people in a marriage and they function as partners on a particular project. Think about how you can strengthen that partnership. What are your needs? What are his? Are you both fully present and committed? Are you both being honest and transparent? Are you hiding resentments or secret alliances with others? All of those things need to be dealt with, too. You've gotta figure out what is in the room that is allowing the bacteria and shadow to grow. You have not scrutinized the whole of what is there, yet.

So, kill the affair. Expose. Think of it as fumigation and airing out all the funk. And then, take stock of what's in that room, what needs to be in that room for you and your husband to be able to meet your needs; what kind of partnership is it and what needs to be in that room to help you both achieve whatever it is you're partnered toward. Rebuild entirely with all that stuff in mind. 

Remember that if you're not both fully committed to the partnership it won't be strong. So, as you're taking stock of what's in there, one of the things you need to ask yourself is whether or not you really think the marriage can be saved. If you think he's messed up too much and you want to be done with him, then be done with him. If you think he isn't doing enough to demonstrate that he wants to be there, then send him away.

It takes a long time for the hurt and betrayal to uncloud your own judgement and it will be a while before you're sure of what you want. So, hang in there and don't beat yourself up over your uncertainty because it's a signal telling you that something isn't right -- just figure out what your gut is telling you isn't right, what your intuition is provoking to make you feel so uncertain. Is this man actually trustworthy? Do you believe it or do you just want to believe it? Are you sure you want to be in this or do you just think it's the right thing to do?

I don't know if anything I've said helps, but I hope I've offered you something that feels supportive.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Has he given you all the passwords for his phone, computer, all email accounts, access to all his bank accounts and credit cards statements? Does he apologize several times a day? Offered to go to IC and set up MC for the two of you? Offered to put a keylogger on his computer and a GPS on his phone? Answer every single question you ask about what he did, with whom, when, where, etc? And answer in a remorseful way? And answer over and over, apologetically, when you need to ask over and over?

He needs to PROVE to you that he is worthy of your time. Until he DOES those things and doesn't just talk about them, he isn't.

This takes years to get over, and he'd better realize that. And you too. You guys have to work on this - it isn't a case of you just forgiving him and that's that.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Did you husband sent a formal NC letter?
Has given you access to comunicating devices and is being acountable of his where abouts?
Is he transparent money wise?
Has your husband given you a full disclosure of the affair to your satisfaction?

While his shame and guilty feelings are unavoidable he needs to stop wallowing in self pity, look way far from his own nose and help you heal from this nightmare. It can be done but he's the one to step up. What's he doing beyond being nicer to the kids? Is he being understanding and supportive of your triggers? Are you able to discuss without being defensive or shutting down? What's he doing to figure out how the hell he fell so low, to risk everthing and everyone? Is he seeking help to become a safe partner? Reading books? IC?, Online support?


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

For him to read.

*Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners*. 
The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand. 

*YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT*. 
They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible. 

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent? 

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?” 
The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse? 
Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.) 
But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery. 
*So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts: 
What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event. 

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal. 

You can be a positive influence on their recovery. 
Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue. 
Your first mission is to learn*. 

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through 
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time. 
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.” 
Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly. 
*SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS *
*DISBELIEF*: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.) 
*SHOCK*: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives. 
*REALITY*: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help. 
*CONFUSION*: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.) 
*PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS*: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.” 
*CRYING*: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.) 
*SELF-CONTROL*: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial. 
*NEED TO KNOW*: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it. 
Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful. 
*WHY*: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again. 
*INJUSTICE*: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.” 
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?” 
A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.) 
*INADEQUACY*: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more. 
*REPEATING*: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again. 
*IDEALIZING*: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner. 
*FRUSTRATION*: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others. 
*BITTERNESS*: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal. 
*WAITING*: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life. 
*EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT*: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking. 
*TRIGGERS*: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating. 
Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are. 

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again. 
It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

*SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS? *
Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly. 
This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means *NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER*. 

*GET INTO THERAPY*: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it. 
*APOLOGIZE*: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. 
*REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER*: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them. 
*HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING*: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency. 

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately. 
The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time. 
*SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM*: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again. 
*PHYSICAL CONTACT*: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want. 
*SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME*: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too. 
*LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT*: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you. 
*HERE’S A GREAT TIP*: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.” 
These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect 
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most 
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components: 
A statement of gratitude. 

An expression of your love. 
An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain. 
An admission that you caused their pain. 
An expression of your sense of shame. 
A promise that it will never happen again 
Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own. 

*SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS? *
*HOPE*: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care 
for others. 
*COMMITMENT*: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life. 
*SEEKING*: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They 
begin exploring new involvements. 
*PEACE*: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future. 
*LIFE OPENS UP*: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy. 
*FORGIVENESS*: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always. 
Rejoice in your renewed commitment to spend your lives together in happiness. Celebrate it together regularly!


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

This 100 pages book expand the above. There's also e-book version.

How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful


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## cantthinkstraight (May 6, 2012)

Acabado said:


> For him to read.
> 
> *Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners*.
> The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.
> ...


Quite honestly, if you sit down with your spouse and read this
with them, you will know from their reaction afterwards just where
you stand with them. 

It will give you a glimpse of what path you should take, 
but you have to be prepared to go the long way if that's what it takes. 

Not for the marriage, but for yourself.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Hope - transparent - yes. However, he had 3 different pay as you go phones through the affair, so no way I could track those. Just haveing more than one now makes me realize that he probably intended to end the affair, but didn't. 

He answered some very hard questions the night of and next day following final DD in March. Yes - I still have lots of questions I did not think to ask and lots that I asked before when he was still in affair that were never truthfully answred. I am just at a point where I recently told him to no longer apologize for the affair, that he needs to just be the husband and father he should have been or be done. If he makes any more mistakes, then he can apologize, but not for something he has already done that we are working through - I don't want to hear it anymore. So if I said that, how do I go back, even though I have every right to? I want to move forward, but just when I think I am doing great, I get in a funk.

No MC or IC. I told him he needed IC though.

Acabado - thanks for the reading material!

Can't ThinkStraight - good advice, but like i mentioned to Hope above, how di I bring all this back up if I am the one who said to let it go...not for him to forget, and not that I will foget, but to be able to move on and focus on us.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You're experiencing this because you had no closure, because you told him to just sweep it under the rug.

It doesn't work that way.

"Honey, I know I told you I didn't want to hear anything any more, but I'm having PTSD over what happened, and I need better resolution. I need to have my questions answered. I need you to write a No Contact letter that I will send to her. I need you to start attending IC so that you learn why you did this and learn how to prevent it. I Need the passwords to your phone and computer and I need you to hand them over if I trigger and need to soothe my worries. If you can't do these things, then we need to discuss our future."


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Tumera - oh I know! And what you wrote sounds great - and I think it is PTSD - it is devistating to say the least. I want us to be able to move on - I want to move on. The night before our 16th wedding anniversary (this month and only 2.75 months past last no contact), I asked him if there was anything else, if there has been any further contact, if there were others. Yes, he got angry, but I told him that I needed to ask this again for closure, even though I said I had closure before because I needed to be able to know that I was not going into another year of marriage with any secrets. He apologized after and said he got angry because he did not expect to be asked those questions again and was cought off guard and it brought back in his face just how awful he was. 

I know I am entitled to ask and ask and ask, but I hate being in that position too. If I ask questions agin, will it matter, and will that be enough...do I keep asking? This just sucks.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ah. So he used anger and raised voice to control you back into letting him off the hook.

Interesting.

The way you are describing this, it's starting to sound like you either naturally don't stand up for yourself (at least not as much as you should) or like you have been 'sliding' and letting him dictate the course of your marriage. Is YOUR voice not equal to HIS?

Something to remember is that YOU did HIM a favor by letting him stay married to you after what he did TO YOU. That doesn't even seem to be in your vocabulary.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

well - yes and no. He answered all of my questions. And they were questions I have asked before. But I had to hear them again. I needed to know right then and there and be able to look him in the eyes and see him say no and to read him. What I read was that he was being honest and that he was hurting (and he has also tells me this all of the time, anytime we have a bad day), that he knows he caused this and there is nothing he can do to take it back and at times it is unbearable. All he can do is do better and be the husband and father he should have been. He said he does not know what else he can do and honestly I do not either. What else is there besides do a 180, be transparent and be teh family man you signed up for? I know I need more - I am not needy persay, but I want more out of our marriage now, now that my eyes are open too. That is where he is falling short. Maybe because it is still so soon, maybe because he is in his own depression, maybe because I am making excuses. I do want to fast track it - not back to how it was - I don't want that marriage and I told him that - I told him I did not want the man I married because that man is a liar and a cheat, but that I wanted him as a new man, the husband and father that he has the potential and last opportunity to be. Am I still being too soft? It hsappened, I can't change that, but I am WANTING to be so over it.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I still ask questions and we're over 2 years out.

You guys should be in MC at the very least.

You cannot WILL yourself to be over it. It doesn't work that way. Stop rugsweeping and tell him what you need. He should be falling over backwards to give you what you want. He should be willing to hand you his left nut on a silver platter if that's what you ask for.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Maybe that is my problem - I don't know what I want or what I need. I know I don't need him to feel good about myself - I like me. I just know what I want now more than ever as far as a marriage, and having to still deal with his mistakes and trying to keep it in the past is not so easy. 3 months since last contact - I know - not a long time, especially when I read that more than likely he is experiencing or has experienced withdrawals even though he said that after this last time he hates her. Why would he tell me otherwise, right? If I keep asking questions, I feel like i am not being truthful about where I am at "mentally and emotionally" with this, yet I said I am done with it (minus knowing that there will be triggers for sometime) and I have no control over those. I guess I feel like I was cheated out of our marriage (of course I was), and now I want what I "signed" up for and what I know we are capable of...yet I don't know where his head is at other than he tells me he hates himself but loves us and me.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Your old marriage IS over. What you need to decide is if you want to try and work on a new one with him. And that will only work if you both work really hard, with him doing 99% of the heavy lifting. You don't need to decide you will stay or go, all you need to decide is whether to give it a try.

The 'Understanding' link in my sig is a good read, for you and for your husband.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

I don't want my old marriage and I don't want the man I married. I want a new marriage for us, one that from this point on is based on truth, love, and honest communication. I told him that I wanted him, but only of he could provide me with these things and know in his heart that he could never/would never stray again. I want us...I want him and our family intact. I am just in a funk and him going through his self hate and depression from this is starting to take a toll on me and making me angry all over again. He doesn't see it, but he is incapable of giving 100% when he is carrying around the burden of his mistakes...not that he shouldn't, but he needs to find a way to work around them.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Remind me, is he in therapy for his 'self hate and depression'?


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

No - no counseling. I have told him many times that he needs to get help and that I can't help him as much as I want to. 

Is this normal - a truly remorseful spouse stuck in self hate, not realizing that they really are having a negative effect on an already stressful situation and that they are not doing everything that the BS needs?

I don't need him to stroke my ego so much as I need to feel him - feel his love that he says is there but is blanketed by his own darkness. I need to fall in love with him again, but it can't happen if he clams up and has a sad and depressed look on his face a lot and says it is only because he hates himself.

He is transparent and trying, but it feels like it is not enough or something is off - I am just trying to figure out which. Is it me, or is it him? Do I need closure (real closure), or just a kick in my a** to take a leap of faith?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Here's the thing. You need to look at your relationship as YOU giving HIM a second chance. Of most cases where the BS takes back the WS without demanding certain hoops like counseling, the WS will cheat again. He HAS to get the therapy to figure out what went wrong, and how to fix it. 

You have the RIGHT to demand it, Looking. You do. He is damned lucky you let him stay married to you. Never forget that. Own up to your own problems, but expect and demand more from him. You're talking as though you have to be careful that you don't piss him off, so as to keep him from leaving you. Am I misreading this dynamic?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If it's not enough, it's not enough. Period.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

"I need to fall in love with him again"

Not now. Only after he has gone through his fog and earned your trust and respect.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It's also possible that his 'self hatred' is just the front he puts on to keep you from being able to be mad at him. "I'm mad enough at myself, I don't need to hear it from you, too." My DH does that ALL the time.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Hmmm...well. I kind of feel like he is not strong enough to deal with what he did and all of the pain that I am still experiencing. I know I am emotionally stronger than him, and quite honestly I think he may go off the deep end if I am not as strong as I have been. I am in no way letting him think that I am healed or that I have moved forward like nothing ever happened. I have expressed that he will never know the depth of hurt and anger that he has caused me and never could unless he was in my shoes. I have triggers. I get quiet. I get distant stares and he notices when my eyes get glassy. He knows. 

It is more than just having an affair - it is the timing and circumstances surrounding it - I went out of state to spend time with my brother who was dying of cancer. My mother-in-law came to look after the girls. He made up a story that he was going out of town for a couple of days for work training. What happened - my brother died 5 hours after I got there, he was with her the day before, and the day of my brother's funeral. He was with her during Thanksgiving vacation while my mother-in-law watched our girls. He lied to his mom too to be with OW - that would kill me if I did that. She flew out to our state 5 days after I left for 20 days. He wasted 2 days of vacation on her - that hurts. Everything about it is sh***y...I would hate myself too if I did that. Funny thing is, I found this site because back in Dec when he was going back and forth he found it and posted his feelings and then sent me his link in an email saying how sorry and stupid he was and how we was messed up and I may not give him another chance but he wanted one if I was willing....so I did, and the contact continued for 2.5 more months. He was really shi***y, no doubt. He has not been on here since, but knows that I have been to find some clarity.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LookingForTheSun said:


> Hmmm...well. I kind of feel like he is not strong enough to deal with what he did and all of the pain that I am still experiencing.


As you keep doing, you keep making excuses for him. Are you aware of that dynamic? It's fairly common in couples where one cheats, actually - one partner taking over for the other and not requiring them to carry their weight.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And what is it you think will happen if you require him to deal with the pain he caused in you? IF he's not 'strong enough,' I mean. (not trying to be rude, but to get you to think outside your box)


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Trust me - I get that - and I re-read everything I write. Not trying to make an excuse (even though it seems like one), I don't think he can handle more than one thing at a time. I am dealing with my brother's death, which I basically put on the backburner until I get through this - and that makes me feel like a sh***y sister, but I am doing what I have to do, I am dealing with this affair, trying to maintain normalcy and work around it for the sake of my children (I want to work around it anyway, but not being able to yell and scream when you want sometimes is hard), and I just found out that my father has lung cancer. So I have 3 life changing events hitting me all in a short time. I have learned to compartmentalize, I guess, so that I can deal with only one thing at a time and not overload myself. 

Maybe he is doing what you say, and maybe not. I just know that I have seen a side of him that I have not seen before - a side that he did not even show when he supposedly broke it of with OW the first few times in the 5 months. I really think he needs help dealing with it. I am not excusing him, but I obviously care enough to still be here and don't want him going off the deap end. 

So I am patient, but that is tough, and that puts me in a funk. I am not crazy and won't "lose it", I have a good head about me, but even that can't stop the feelings of being lost and wondering how to overcome them. I want to help him get through it so he can fully focus and enjoy us and rebuild us, but when he says he is fine except for hating himself, and I feel it, it makes me feel like something is missing - and I am willing to give it some time and for him to heal what he needs to heal...and yes, that sounds messed up, but doesn't a spouse who is truly remorseful need to heal too? I feel like if I am not part of the solution, I will be part of the problem. I know I am stronger, and I know that I will need moral support in the near future, but I need for him to get himself back on track so he can do that 100%.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm so sorry for your loss. And about your father; best of luck for him.

I'm confused. You said he's not really doing anything to make you feel better, but you say he's in trouble and needs help. Does that mean that he's in a depressed funk or something, to where he can't acknowledge you or your pain?

I'm not trying to tell you to dump him or anything; I'm trying to dig to the real issue so I can give more targeted advice.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You want to help him, yet he says he is fine and won't address it. Is that right?


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

ok - and so I am sure you are going to say something about my comment - If I am not part of the solution......

What I meant by that - he messed up, but if I want to R, I need to be willing to do some work to - I did not get that at first. I felt it was so unfair - and it is - but I can't play the victim all of the time and expect something positive to come out of it. If I know I am capable of doing more, I will do it, because I want it to work. If I didn't want to do anything, I would not love him and would want a divorce. 

I had more reason than he did to have affairs, but I never did. Yes, I am stronger and have been more committed. I am only hoping that this train wreck has snapped him back into reality so that he can be the person, husband, father, son, friend that he could/should have been. I think it has, but I am still heartbroken and working through it.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

You do understand that the state of your marriage before he cheated, and the fact that he cheated, are two completely separate issues, right? The first is the one you _should _own. It takes two to make a successful marriage. but the second - him cheating - that is HIS sh!t to own. 100%. 1000%.

By taking on ownership of him cheating, you are enabling him to avoid facing up to what he did. If he never faces up to it, you will never successfully reconcile. If you think he needs help, then tell him to go to a professional.

I cannot even conceive of trying to help HIM deal with what he did, PLUS me. What I went through was tougher than anything else I have ever done. You're going to run yourself into the ground.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

No - he knows my pain, but I hide a lot because of my girls and because I know he is dealing too. He does not want me to worry about him because he knows I am dealing, so he tells me he is fine, except for the fact that he can't stand himself for what he has done. He said that anytime he looks like he is bothered, it is because he is thinking about what he has done and there is nothing he can do to take it back. He is remorseful. I have no doubt. 

I will get through this, just looking for some insite on how I can fast track it. I know it is what it is, and I have accepted that. I still don't understand it because I could not do what he did, but I think he finally sees it, the fallout, and I know he would cut off his rigt arm if he could take it back. But he can't, so we deal, and I try to deal and help us get through. We are still in a marriage, and it should be 50/50. He screwed up before, but I will do what I have in me to get us through. I am just trying to figure what I can do now for me.

He does not understand why I am still around - but for me it is like this - your spouse is your family - and you don't give up on family. Yes, my children played a very dynamic role in this when it first broke, but it is more than that now. I am seeing things clearer (still confused about some stuthings), and fully committed. I just don't know how to fill a void I feel and don't know the cause of it - because i never got concrete closure, because maybe I am dealing subconciously with too many things at once, or because I see him in his funk.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

I am not taking ownership of him cheating - far from it. I have given him some harsh realities and scenarios that I choose not to share here - and I have shared a lot if you scroll through my threads and posts. What I am saying is that if I want our R to be successful (and maybe that is where a lot of R's are not successful or end up in divorce - because the BS feels that they should not have to do anything - that they did nothing wrong - and believe me, I was there! I felt it! ) then I must set aside some of my pride too and do some work and stop playing the victim all of the time and step up and take an active role. I am doing that, and I am proud of myself for doing that. It still does not stop me from having mixed emotions and feeling like I missed something. I keep telling myself that we are only 3 months out, so I know that there is still plenty to deal with.

You may think I am crazy for feeling like I need to work at it to, but I am determined to do my part to make it work. If that means helping him through his torment first, then that is what I will try to do as much as I can. 

It does not excuse him for what he has done, nor does it give him permission to do it again. There will not be a next time with a happy ending...and as much energy I am putting into this when I should have none, imagine when I can do when I am really p***ed off and have nothing to lose


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The only way you can fast track it is to get him to a therapist. Please. Find one and make the appointment. Tell him "Hon, I love you, but it's killing me to watch you in such misery, and right now, I NEED my husband to be here for me. So I've made an appointment for you to get together with someone who can help you deal with what happened and move forward, so you can be the big strong man I know you are."


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

That is good!


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## Barnowl (May 31, 2012)

If he is giving his all to owning up to his 100% of the cheating AND his 50% of the marriage problems, and at the same time you are owning up to your potential 50% of the marriage problems, then I think you two stand a really good chance of a positive R.

It does take two people to keep a marriage at 100%. An understanding of what you both need to do is great. I wish my wife would consider her 50% of the marriage. Of course, I don't blame her for my 100% of the cheating, but she is not looking at the 50% yet from her side. Perhaps with time she will...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LookingForTheSun said:


> If that means helping him through his torment first, then that is what I will try to do as much as I can.


Looking, I think what everyone's trying to get to is that you keep talking about how you have to help him. That's great, and admirable. But you sacrificing so that he can get to a healthy place ONLY WORKS if he's actually DOING anything.

He's not. He's suffering. You're suffering. And no one is getting to a professional to get help on how to STOP suffering. You're putting off what YOU need so he can mend (though in Affair terms this is ass-backwards), but he ISN'T! 

If he were taking up your offer of help and addressing his crap, that would be one thing. 

How long will you wait til you decide this is just what he does - ignore the issue and hope it goes away?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Barnowl said:


> If he is giving his all to owning up to his 100% of the cheating AND his 50% of the marriage problems, and at the same time you are owning up to your potential 50% of the marriage problems, then I think you two stand a really good chance of a positive R..


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

Excellent way of saying it!!

If he isn't willing to go to a therapist then he isn't doing his 150%


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Turnera - you are right. I do need to push for him to get help. I have told him many times, but have not pushed it because he has slowly done some of the other things that he said he would do...I just think him seeking help is the hardest for him, so it will come last. I need to be more stern on that.

Barnowl - like I said before, don't give up. I have not gotten to where I am easily. I am stubborn, so I pushed myself and looked 10 steps ahead to convince myself to be here and I am glad I did. I may be moving faster than the norm, but I refuse to live in misery for any length of time. This is it! This is our last hurrah! I am not going to sit around and wait for it to come to me. If I try and it fails, I know I tried. If I try and we succeed, then I get what I wanted in the end. 

Keep up with the flowers, the notes, etc - maybe once a week - Mondays are always good to get something special on. Respect her, and tell her you appreciate her and are sorry for being a dumba**. Don't get discouraged - this comes from a BS - you still have a chance if you are true in your heart.

I am positive, not naive. I love my family, and I know I am strong, but I am only human. I don't have all the answers, and at this point what I think I may know might not even be right, so I am here seeking the wisdom of others to help guide me through my last steps.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Sorry - gonna be a long post! It has been a couple of weeks since I posted on my own thread. I have been finding strength giving advice to others -mostly to the WH's and helping them understand what a BS feels and needs during the time after DD. What a shame any of us are here.

Last Thu I had a major trigger and began texting my husband at work, making accusations, freaking out. It carried over when he got home. I told him I can control triggers most of the time, but sometimes I can't. It got ugly. I asked questions about 10 years ago - about #2 that I never knew about until I found out about#3. I never got any closure on that - don't know name, face, situation, etc. It just got really ugly, he said he could not do this anymore, that he has been doing everything right that he she can do for the last 4 months but that apparently it is not enough. He can't change anything about the past and hates himself for it, but he can't talk about what he did because it is killing him. I told him to stop being so selfish and put himself in my shoes, then I reminded him of all he did, and he blew up, threw things, cried, started to walk out and I called him a coward for walking out on his family a second time. I found out that he did not use a condom w/#2, and a couple of years after that, I had an abnormal pap and have HPV. It is very common, however, it is still sexually transmitted. I had only been with one other man besides my husband, and that was 8 years earlier. I knew he had cheated on me right after we got married, and he still swears to this day that he just made out with her. So, after asking if he wore a condom with #2 and he said no, it clicked - he got it from her and passed it to me. So I thanked him. I also told him that he was lucky that he did not catch anything else, but explained to him that I have something that he passed on from his recklessness that I have to have monitored for the rest of my life or it could turn into cervical cancer...and, oh, BTW, he could also develop cancer of the penis (that was not explained to me when I had the abnormal pap)...did not think men were effected by it.

He got mad, yelled at me, why did n't I tell him this before, what if I got sick...I could not belive my ears...I said because it isn't a big deal as long as I get my yearly paps, and I did tell you back then - apparently it was just not that important to you, and why I am I telling you now? Because I just found out that you gave it to me and I was not mad at you back then but I am now.

So, he blew up again, went into the bathroom, started throwing up, sobbing uncontrollably, and I went in, held his head, wiped his tears, wiped his nose, and had no emotion. I thought he knew just how much he hurt our marriage before, but I think this took him to a new level of realization.

Friday morning we argued again. Then he texted from work that he was going to come home, clean the garage, clean the house and fix everything. He was sorry, but please just take the girls out for awhile and let him do that. So he did - worked until 5:30 am, layed down for 2 hours than worked all day. 

Saturday night was good - we did 4th of July stuff with the girls in our community. Sunday morning started out good. Were driving to breakfast with the girls, I said something in a nice way, he took it the worng way, and he exploded again - it was not pretty, and I was done.

We drove home, I sent the girls in to eat breakfast at home while we stayed in the car. I told him we needed to talk. I told him that I was tired of taking the blame for his anger, that he caused it and that he needed help. I told him I was tired of what our marriage has become because of his actions and that he had no excuse to do that to me and certainly not in front of our girls. He kept arguing that he was angry at himself, that I said I could not do this anymore and how was he supposed to take it. He said he woke up happy, but walking through the house saw the holes in the walls that he made, and that triggered him and made him angry at himself and hurt. He patched them up but you can still see them.

I told him that I loved the girls more than myself and more than him and I would not allow them to ever see anything like that again - we had hit an alltime new low in just a matter of seconds that had nothing to do with me and everything to do with him. I told him to stop trying to one up me everytime I said I was hurting or angry. Stop being selfish, and fix himself. I told him that for the first time in my life I was jealous and wanted what other people had. I did not want my life any more. We have become toxic, and it is not good for the girls, for me or for us. I told him that I wanted my family intact more than anything and that I loved him, but I love my children more. They are more innocent than any one, and they should not ever see their parents argue like that.

When I started to tell him this, when I told him that I was prepared to leave, he became quiet. He listened. Then he told me how sorry he was and that his anger is never at me, that it never was. That he hates himself and feels so helpless and can't ever change what he did even though he wants to so bad. I told him that I deserve better and the girls deserve better. That I don't want a husband who isn't 100 committed, that does not love me and wants to only stay to make up for the wrong he did. I told him I would be fine on my own, even though it was not at all what I had wanted or planned. I told him we should not stay for the girls, and he said that he only stayed the first day for them and the rest for us. He begged me to give him the chance to prove that he is different, and he will never get angry like that again. He asked if I believed him and I told him no. He said I was wrong. That he wants his family as much as I do, that he wants me more than I will ever know, and that he will fix things, that we are great together and he is so sorry and sees what he has done and become and won't let it happen again. I asked what happens when it does, and he said it won't. He was going to make everything right and prove to me through his actions. 

He asked what I was thinking and I told him that I was thinking about our 2 girls inside by themselves after all of that. So we went inside, apologized to them, and took them out for some fun. I have reached a point where I am sad and hurt. I want to keep my family together. I love him, but I think I am ready to move on if I have to. I don't want to, and it is so painful, but this affair has destroyed him. I know it is stupid for me to say I want to help him through it, but what kind of person/wife/mother would I be if I did not on some level? It is not fear of him slipping back into an affair anymore that is pushing me towards the door, it is his own demons that I can't help fight that are the 3rd party in our marriage now. How do you fight a demon? 

It was, and still is a final deal breaker if contact is ever made or if any flirting or contact or anything of that nature ever happens again. However, now we have another deal breaker to contend with. My heart is heavy and I will continue to pray that we make it through. I have done all I can.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Did I finally do what I should have done 6 months ago? If he was ever left in any fog at all, did this just kick him out of it?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And, after all that, you didn't demand he go to therapy?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

It's hard to say - only time will tell.

He REALLY needs to see someone. He needs anger management and help with self esteem issues at the very least. You cannot provide that - you shouldn't even try because you could do more harm than good.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

People don't 'get over' anger management issues. Print him out some articles to read on it.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

I did. I told him that if he was willing to do anything as he stated that he would get help and that he had to do it. I reminded him of when he first went NC that he said that he would get in anger management and go to marriage counseling if that is what I wanted. Yep - I am a BS and my emotions have been all over the place and I have been in my own fog. I know that I am strong and I was convinced that I did not need counseling of my own if I could only determine if he would ever stray again or not. If I could only know that the answer would be no, than I would be OK...fast forward almost 7 months - I am really pulling for my husband, but a counselor can't tell me at this point what I should feel or what I might be feeling or why. I have been through it all. I am secure in my feelings now more than ever before. It is his own guilt, remorse, shame and anger that is the problem in our marriage now. I have reached a level of indifference...maybe because I am just so tired of it all. I love him, and I want him to fight for me and our daughters. He just can't fight me anymore.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

But is he GOING?


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Interesting thread 

'Looking' we have parallels in some respects 

I am very like you and he is very like my stbxw.

You seem to be in the stage where I was 6 months ago in between the 3rd and 4th infidelity knowing if your relationship just stuck to the basic important love aspects you'd be fine but then he/she always keep bringing their infidelity **** and mental issues to the table making it all very not fine. 

My wife has big mental issues - inner anger, self esteem, borderline this and that and sadly this mental deficiency is the 'third' aspect you speak of. 

I had that '3rd partner' through out our marriage (15 years, two kids) and far from it getting better over time with my love and support (or so I thought ) it never deep down did and simply rooted all her actions and decisions that have torn us finally apart 

I feel for you and your complete mental torture about where you should take it. Your choices are far from easy.

Like you many of the issues going back a while, in retrospect, never got treated - not enough counseling etc just a few medication drugs off the internet and for me giving her another 4th chance, even though it was fantastic for two more months, was just another green light 

Like your husband she hates herself etc etc although still looks to blame someone thing else, would get angry at herself 

BUT

*chose* not really to address it to seek the needed assistance so inevitably by March had fallen in love with yet another and all was done

It's the _choosing_ that does for me. That particular aspect shows she did not value me or have the required love and respect for me and our kids to sort out or try to sort out her problems, which from where I sit, she will always have

Hope it goes well for you and you can pull out whatever you need to be happy


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

I am already starting to see some major changes in addition to the transparency and remorse...all really good things, but he stated upon last "discussion" that he won't go to counseling and that he is going to fix himself because he knows what he needs to do, he just has not done it yet.

So he is really starting to do some heavy lifting, but I still have unanswered questions about #'s 2 and 3 that I am not sure if I will ever get answered because I have not yet. 

New question - does there come a point in R when the BS has to realize that he/she may not get all of the answers, and if they want to succeed in R, they have to let some things go if all else seems to be doing good?

WH sent me an email this morning regarding something else (not bad), but included this since it was about us, our marriage, and making us work: "I Love You and our family and we will take our time to relax also. I don’t mind the sacrifice of unneeded expenses for smiles and happy hearts! I have a picture of Superman at my desk that my daughter colored for me, it’s about time I start being that person. I’m sorry for everything I’ve done and my mistakes but I can’t ever be great if I don’t lock those things away. I won’t forget them or the pain that I’ve caused you. I need to release so I can breathe again and start giving what I’m capable of giving to You and the Girls! I am a great person who has made horrible choices and decisions in my life but I also have made great choices and decisions and have made personal sacrifices for my country. I won’t forget the wrongs or rights that I’ve done anymore, I’m 41 years old and have the rest of my life to be great and I’m going to! I love you and I won’t EVER FAIL you ever again, you deserve that from me! We need to reconnect with family and friends and we need to make new friends and we need to clean our windows from the inside and let the sunshine in. If we walk and run side by side in life neither one of us will ever be down long should we fall. So to answer your question from yesterday, Yes, I am happy and I’m ready for us to be happier! "


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Nice pep talk he just gave himself. And nice way of saying 'we're done talking about this, let's move forward.'


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

turnera said:


> Nice pep talk he just gave himself. And nice way of saying 'we're done talking about this, let's move forward.'


hmmm....


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LookingForTheSun said:


> I am already starting to see some major changes in addition to the transparency and remorse...all really good things, but he stated upon last "discussion" that he won't go to counseling and that he is going to fix himself because he knows what he needs to do, he just has not done it yet.


Looking, you see how silly this sounds, right? What would you tell your mom if she was married to a man who said this to her after all he did to break her heart?



LookingForTheSun said:


> *he won't go to counseling *
> So he is *really starting to do some heavy lifting*, but I still have *unanswered questions*


Looking, let's be honest here, ok? Remember, we are here to help YOU, not him. So...looking out for YOU...where do these three things show you that he cares about YOU more than HIMSELF?



LookingForTheSun said:


> does there come a point in R when the BS has to realize that he/she may not get all of the answers, and if they want to succeed in R, they have to let some things go if all else seems to be doing good?


Let me rephrase this for you: Does there come a time when I have to admit to myself that, while I SHOULD have stood up for myself and DEMANDED certain things from the man who cheated on me, well, I didn't. I caved. So...knowing that...can I scrape together enough of an APPEARANCE of him caring more about me than himself to be able to live with it, so I can keep on pretending he cares more about me than himself, without coming to a place where I just want to end it all?



LookingForTheSun said:


> I don’t mind the sacrifice of unneeded expenses for smiles and happy hearts! [Translation: LOOK! I'm going to BUY you nice, shiny STUFF to butter you UP so you'll quit asking me to dig deep and look at myself! Will it work?] I have a picture of Superman at my desk that my daughter colored for me [Translation: LOOK! I'm tugging at your heartstrings now, your WEAKNESS, so I can convince you to back off and just let me be. Will it work?], it’s about time I start being that person. I’m sorry for everything I’ve done and my mistakes but I can’t ever be great if I don’t lock those things away. [Translation: You sure as hell better not expect me to show humility about this because I sure as hell have no intention of doing so - I 'HAVE' to pretend I'm not a Class-A ********* to be able to live with myself so, if you want me (and I know you do!), you'll back off, too.] I won’t forget them or the pain that I’ve caused you. [I promise! Until the next girl I see and I can rejustify cheating.] I need to release so I can breathe again and start giving what I’m capable of giving to You and the Girls! [Translation: LOOK! I'm SUFFERING here, all right? So give me a goddamn break already! If you want me home (and I know you do!), you'd better back the hell off! Is it working?] I am a great person who has made horrible choices and decisions in my life but I also have made great choices and decisions and have made personal sacrifices for my country. [Translation: I'm a vet, dammit, so stop acting all high and mighty with me; I have street cred. And I'm a great guy who just made a widdle biddy mistake, so get off my case!] I won’t forget the wrongs or rights that I’ve done anymore, I’m 41 years old and have the rest of my life to be great and I’m going to! I love you and I won’t EVER FAIL you ever again, you deserve that from me! We need to reconnect with family and friends and we need to make new friends and we need to clean our windows from the inside and let the sunshine in. [Translation: If you shut up about what I have done, I won't bring up all the crap that YOU have done, and we can pretend in front of everyone that I'm a wonderful husband because...I have dirt on you.] If we walk and run side by side in life [Translation: Like the poetic romanticism and symbolism of running down the beach hand in hand? Did it work?] neither one of us will ever be down long should we fall. So to answer your question from yesterday, Yes, I am happy and I’m ready for us to be happier! "


 blech


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

I know, I know. And I looked at 10 different reasons for each of his comments. Like a BS, I can justify most of them with an answer that reflects positively on him. As always, my head and my heart continue to battle it out, and I try to think 10 steps ahead and look at every possible angle.

For some clarity (and you will say - oh, poor thing, here she goes again......) the money issue - came about because I told him that more than likely we may not be able to take our planned trip this winter because we have racked up some major expenses for "us" and our family since last winter (not money on OW - he gets an allowance only), and I am usually very good at budgeting, but I just went with it, thinking, hey, if this does not work out, everything is in his name and it will fall on him as he leaves me no choice but to walk away - so I was indifferent on these things and for the first time in my life did not care about money and being responsible with it.

What happened after I told him that, was him saying that we are going to take our trip and that I needed to trust him that he would make it happen, and that we needed and I deserved this trip....so along with the other part of the email I posted this morning, he sent me a list of his prized possessions that he is going to sell to make sure we have our trip covered, as well as he will start to donate plasma. That is where the sacrifice comment came from. (all sad, because we both make good money, but we have made 3 big purchases since the affair and we are maxed out).

The counseling - I know. I am still lost on that one. I know he knows what a S**tbag he has been, and I know that he just does not want to have to air it all out again and relive it any more than he thinks he has too. He says that he triggers every day, reminding him of what an a**hole he has been, and talking about it almost kills him.

The Superman picture on the wall - he says all the time that he has 2 little girls who adore him and they have no idea what a joke and horrible father he really is. It makes him sick to think that he could ever treat their mother the way he did, and if anyone ever treated them like he did me, he would kill them for hurting his little girls. He says he wants to be a great father, and that good is not good enough.

The getting back in touch with family and friends, etc - he shut himself off from all family and friends, we both deleted our facebook accounts (where #3 got started and she somehow tried to hijack my page), so I lost all contact with all friends I have kept and found over the years. He recently gave his new smartphone to our oldest and took her very basic phone - said he does not need it anymore. 

The not forgetting the bad or good things he has done, could mean that he is finally realizing that he does have potential to be a good person - that he has done some good things with his life and just because he has been a d**chebag our whole marriage does not mean that he can't change and be the person he had the potential to be all along. 

Yes, he did give himself a good pep talk. I can see it two different ways. The way I want to believe - that my recent (Sunday) words to him to stop feeling sorry for himself and start being the man he could/should be or I am out the door -- have finally registered, or along the lines of your thinking - that he is just telling me what I want to hear to get by.

I appreciate all of the advice on here. I appreciate the experience and heartache behind it all. I am taking everything into consideration, but I am also trying to include every factor, emotion, circumstance, personal flaws and options into my actions. 

You already know that I want to make this work, but this is our last chance. Either we get through this and have a great life once all is said and done, or he screws up and it is over. Ether way, I have to be in it to find out what the outcome is. 

After all of this, what conclusion have I come to? I do have some more questions to ask, but those are less important to me than him proving that he can answer one or two (as opposed to the 4 pages I have) without going into meltdown mode, him apologizing to my parents, and him and I getting help together.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Well I feel for you Looking. 

As I mentioned I was in your 'place' 6 months ago yet another infidelity and it seemed obvious to basically finish it all -again

But what I think people need to appreciate here is that every scenario is slightly different

The 'basics' may be the same (cheating spouse crushes the marriage - denials, proof, anger, guilt, unending weeping, gaslighting, torture, trauma, counseling, separation, divorce - all cut and dried etc etc) - however each marriage is different some marriages are really just waiting to end and the whole thing was an inevitability adultery or not 

BUT probably like you, mine has been fantastic for so much of it until this 'mist' descends, that there's something you want to fight for and keep.

So many people (friends and family) can't believe you are willing to subject yourself to more of the same destruction but one's faith and belief in 'good' love and the other person when it is so good, is overwhelming and you cannot help but want it to succeed even when in your head (not your heart), the voices are telling you to let it go.

So for me if you believe it can work you have to go for it if the belief is there even when you can feel it may also kill you.

Very difficult and especially with kids involved too.

I sense it's last time saloon. It was for me and sadly she did not learn from it but that's not to say it cannot work for others

Best of luck, you deserve it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You're right. You're really good at making excuses for him INSTEAD OF defending YOURSELF against what he did to you. Have you ever gotten therapy for why you feel less worthy than other people?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Look, I am NOT telling you to ditch him. He obviously wants the family back and that's great.

What I AM telling you is this: If you don't stand up and DEMAND accountability, DEMAND that you get YOUR needs taken care of, you are letting him slide - AGAIN. And what happens when you let him slide?

_He doesn't do the homework. He doesn't change._

I want your marriage to survive just as much as you do. But I have the experience here, the history of helping hundreds of other BWs in the exact same position as you find yourself in, and I know human nature EXTREMELY well. I'm telling you that if you don't get mad, stay mad, until he commits to therapy and humility...you will be RIGHT BACK HERE in 2 years, again, with another OW. 

If he loves you as much as he says he does, _he will reach humility and he will attend therapy._ You aren't asking that much. HE, however, intends to keep doing what he has always done - charm you so HIS level of comfort never dips.

Don't you and the kids deserve more from him?


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

I do have to disagree with one thing - I am not charmed by him. Because of my children, I am more patient, but my feelings for him are not from being charmed. I do still love him, but I do still hate him for what he has done. I can't be charmed by someone who repeatedly betrayed me, but my hope is that with time and change on his part I can grow to love him again as much as I did before this last disaster.

I do try to see the good in people, and I do not discount good things that bad people do. HOWEVER, I do not forget what they do either, but I try to forgive whenever possible so that I am not burdened with that feeling for any longer than necessary. I hate the feeling of being bitter.

It is so very hard, becuase as a BS, you want to believe that when someone almost loses EVERYTHING, family, career, friends, that it just might be the thing that stops the pattern of bad behavior that the WS was accustomed to. In some cases, you know this happens, a wake up call, an aha moment, they see the light and forever change for the better. 

It may not happen in most cases, but does in some, and you always hope that your case is one of the lucky ones. So how do you know? What are the signs? From all my reading here, there are no certain tell-tale signs that anything will work. Everyone is different, every marriage is different, and every story is different.

I won't let my husband slide away from this. I am going to ask more questions and demand counciling for us together.

However, I am also trying to put myself in the shoes of the WS (big shoes to fill that I couldn't possibly understand), but in observing my husband and reading other WS's posts, I strangely have an understanding of the fact that they are going through their own hell and pain if they are truly remorseful. I see that they hurt very badly too. I can almost feel sorry for them - not quite, but I can understand and actually hope that they are succesful in changing for the better, learning from their mistakes and fixing what they so badly broke.

If I did something so terrible, would I want to be reminded of it every day? No. Even if I deserved to suffer, it would just wear on me, and break me down. 

Does a WS deserve to feel the pain they put their BS through - absolutely. However, they won't ever feel the exact pain - can't mimic that, but they can feel rejected, unworthy, ugly, unloved, beaton, broken.....but for how long? 

I keep reading that as a BS we have the right to ask questions as many times over and as often as necessary, for life if we need to, but is that really healthy for a relationship? Doesn't that keep a cloud over any R in addition to the unavoidable triggers?

Does grilling a WS over and over really help, or does it drive them away? Does it make them unstable if they really are remorseful? 

We will never truly know if a WS really does change unless an infidelity happens again. So do we keep grilling and reminding them of what they did until that happens, or do we take a final leap of faith and accept that if it happens it happens, but we need to make peace with ourselves that we will not compromise if that time comes, and we will finally end it for good?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LookingForTheSun said:


> there are no certain tell-tale signs that anything will work. Everyone is different, every marriage is different, and every story is different.


Just so you know, if I had a dollar for every BW who said this, I'd be rich. 

"Not MY marriage. You just don't understand MY husband. He's different. He really cares. I know you think he's an ass, but I KNOW him - he really loves me and he WILL be different. Our love is too strong."

fwiw, I'm not trying to beat you up. But he is giving you a snow job you can barely dig out from under. And you're buying it. 

_Because you want to._


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Trust me - I am not saying he is different. I know what he did. He is as bad as all of them (WS). What I am saying is, there is a chance that it can all work out AND there is a chance that he will fail. 

So what are my choices? Stay, knowing what he did, trying to rebuild a broken marriage, or leave, knowing what he did. Because I am staying for now does not mean that I think he is so wonderful and is a changed man. For me, it means that I have to have some hope that he could be one of the few that really does change. And if it is one of those few, don't genuine acts from the WS need to start somewhere? How do we know? We don't. I have already been through false R 3 times from this affair, and I have not been as demanding and as matter-of-fact, nor have I said that I was ready to leave and be OK with it before now. 

In the end, if I stay and he screws up, everyone can tell me "I told you so". I know that it is a possibility. I have not ruled that out. However, in the end if I stay and he changes and becomes the husband and father he should have been, then I smile, knowing that my hard work paid off and what I once thought was impossible was indeed possible after all.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

turnera said:


> Just so you know, if I had a dollar for every BW who said this, I'd be rich.
> 
> "Not MY marriage. You just don't understand MY husband. He's different. He really cares. I know you think he's an ass, but I KNOW him - he really loves me and he WILL be different. Our love is too strong."
> 
> ...


I agree with this post. All we are saying is stay alert and guard your heart.

Since Dday, I have talked to an emailed and met so many betrayed spouses who put their all into trying a reconciliation only to find another affair, or the original affair rekindles or that it went underground immediately and never ended as the cheater claimed.

Cheating is emotional abuse, and abusers don't easily change their stripes without extensive IC and even then, if a personality disorder is at the root of the cheating the cheater will likely not be fixed by therapy. 

Google Personality disorders. They are intractable and even difficult to diagnose. 

I think someone in a reconciliation needs to be very guarded. Do you want to live that way. 

After second Dday, 'cause I let my guard down and believed STBEH when he said I could trust him again, I realized I don't want to have to be a warden to a cheating spouse, forever after spying on him. What a terrible future.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I hope it works. Human nature tells me he will stop 'fixing' himself within 2 weeks. That's about how long it takes for him to realize you're not really serious about leaving him, so he doesn't have to do all this damn stupid stuff you're shoving down his throat; after all, you're not leaving, right?

What I HAVE seen work is for the BS to kick the WS out, set VERY HIGH BARS to jump over before she will let him GET to see her again, and give him a reason to achieve it.

If you've already been through THREE FALSE RECOVERIES, why is this one different? Because you SAY you will leave? Why would he believe you now?

Why can't you just leave and then let him EARN his way back? My guess is you are afraid he will say 'fine! I'm just leaving then!'


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

That is the thing - I am not afraid now. In the end, I want my family together, but this is it, and it works or it doesn't. I got us this far, and the rest is up to him now.

I don't see that kicking him out or me moving out to make that point will do any good, other than create heartache for my children and more drama. To show him that I am serious? I made that clear this past weekend. To show him what he has to lose? I made that clear these last 4 months of R.

What is different this time? Me. That I know for a fact. Is he different? He appears to be - it may be true, it may be false, but I won't know until time tells. 

As for keeping my guard up, I know what could happen. I will never forget. It is always a possibility. It is always possible in a soiled marriage, such as mine, and a seemingly perfect marriage, as we all start out believing we have and as has been demonstrated by the thousands of posts here on TAMS.

People on here ask the question - do you want to continue your marriage, always wondering, always checking, are you ready for that? My question - Do people who start new relationships REALLY go into them after being in a betrayed marriage, with no concerns of being cheated on again? Are they not always thinking that it is a possibility, and only this time they know the signs to look for? Aren't we all changed for life and carry that into every relationship from now on?

Turnera - I don't know your story. Sara, I have read yours - pretty crappy too. Sorry you had to deal with that. We all know that we give advice based on our own stories. What I try to do is take into account the advice I have been given, based on the source. In the end, the stories are all the same - we were betrayed, lied to, hurt, sometimes even destroyed. But there are differences in each one. They are not a one-size-fits-all, and not everything that has worked in R for one couple has worked for all. Lets face it, R is rare. It is tough, and it sucks. It is not for everyone, and many will fail. Many, but not all.

I don't know if mine will be a success, I sure hope so. I have given it all I have to give so far, and am ready to sit back and let my WH do the rest. That does not mean that I will not give 100% to our marriage. I will never let that be a factor on my end ever again. R is not a time to be lazy. It is hard, and I am the BS saying that I have done most of the lifting so far, and it has only made me stronger. I have changed.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I wish you well. fwiw, I believe in keeping families together, in the long run, when there are kids. But I also believe in human nature. So please keep coming back and reading everything you've posted.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

If you allow him to get away with this, it's just gonna happen again. I'm sorry, I really really hope it doesn't, but it just doesn't sound good to me at ALL.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

I don't understand - if I allow him to get away with what? The affair? The wanting to move on and put the past behind us?

That is a serious question - I am not sure what you are referring to.

If it is about the affair - If I could have stopped it, I would have - but none of us can. It happened. To not let him get away with it, well, I guess the only thing to do would be to divorce him. Neither of us want that now. Back in December he did. Back in December I did not know, but I was a fighter, and here we are.

What else can I do that constitutes not letting him get away with it? It is not fair, but the next best thing I have done is not made it easy - at least for the last 4 months. Obviously I was not as strong or credible the first 2.5 months after DD because he resumed contact. He was obviously not strong either.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

fwiw, most cheaters, upon 'quitting,' will regress and resume contact several times before calling it quits for good. After all, the OW made them FEEL good; and who doesn't want to feel good?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

You ARE letting him get away with it by not demanding things from him, like that he go to counseling, that he keep answering your questions, demanding accountability, etc. It's been, what, 3 months, and you've already told him you forgive him. You told him to quit apologizing. There's NO WAY you are at that point yet.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

I am aware of that, and so we are 4 months after DD4. I don't know if it even matters at this point, but each DD, he was the one who revealed it to me. I did not know. After DD1 (Dec 7) and through DD3 (Jan 3) I had suspicions, and he broke it off for a short time, but then resumed. After DD4, I have not doubted he has stayed loyal, only that she has not contacted him (through his work is the only way she could). I am 90% convinced that she did not, but the 10% is doubt because of his past behavior.

In all of the posts that you have all seen here, does it make a difference if the WS is the one who reveals the cheating instead of being caught?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

If he does it, confesses, does it again, confesses again, and does it AGAIN and confesses, what does that tell you?? If he was TRULY REMORSEFUL he wouldn't keep doing it.

Look, it is POSSIBLE that this time he means it. But the complete and total lack of trust you must have has GOT to be addressed by him. He isn't doing that. And you're letting him not do it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It tells me that he cares more about making himself happy than he does about not hurting you.

Is that all you deserve?


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> If he does it, confesses, does it again, confesses again, and does it AGAIN and confesses, what does that tell you?? If he was TRULY REMORSEFUL he wouldn't keep doing it.
> 
> Look, it is POSSIBLE that this time he means it. But the complete and total lack of trust you must have has GOT to be addressed by him. He isn't doing that. And you're letting him not do it.


You are right - he was not remorseful before. I know it, and I felt it. I felt like I was living in her shadow - and I told him that back in January and he denied it....but I was. I don't feel that way now and haven't for the last couple of months. The first couple of months after DD4 were hard. I was not sure that I could go through with it. I checked and checked and looked for something. Then I realized I would not find anything. He already proved that he could get away with it if he wanted, so I told him that. I told him I thought him going transparent after DD4 was a good step, but it didn't convince me of anything because he could always get a burn phone, new email or FB page, all without my knowledge. But he continued with the transparency anyway. 

Upon my last trigger, he gave his smartphone to my daughter and took her phone. I told him it did not matter, because he could get a burn phone, but he did it anyway. Because of these things, I can see where it might be tough for them (WS) to know what to do. Now they are doing the right thing, but it really does not matter. Because he is still doing it, it does show me something - he is trying.

I told him that I want to believe him, but I don't, and only time will tell. In the meantime, do I not live and just wait around for him to make that last mistake, or do I do what I can to rebuild in hopes that he won't make another mistake. Those are the only 2 options I see other than divorce, and only one of them seems like a road I want to take. I don't want to be miserable anymore. I don't want to be the victim. 

Did I forgive him - yes - once and for all - yes, I forgave him and I didn't take a year to do it, and I am there. I just won't forget and I don't expect him to either. He said I should not forgive him and said he will never forgive himself, but I told him it was about me, for me to take a step I needed to move on. 

It s**ks to be bitter. And if he fails us again, I will not be so kind. I just know that I can't live like that - not being bitter to someone I share my bed with, my dreams for my family with, and not the person who I plan to have with me until death do us part. 

Think about that thread posted the other day about the man who never forgave his wife after 50 years...how sad is that? I refuse to do that.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

turnera said:


> It tells me that he cares more about making himself happy than he does about not hurting you.
> 
> Is that all you deserve?


Nope! I deserve a heck of a lot more! And that is exactly what it says - that he cared more about himself than me. I know that. And that is why DD4 is the final DD with a positive outcome. Any more after that and I cut the cord and pull my reserve chute.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Good to hear. btw, you may want to point this out to him.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

turnera said:


> Good to hear. btw, you may want to point this out to him.


I have. I was very clear about it this past weekend....and some new changes (good changes) are happening. Time will tell.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

I approached it differently - told him that it just made me hurt that he said he is willing to do anything but he won't talk any more about what has happened or even consider counseling. Told him I understand he wants to lock away his past, but by doing so before I get a chance to get the answers to questions I will always have if they are not answered, it will only make me suffer. He already knows the answers, and those won't change whether he tells me or not, but it will make a difference for me. I told him that me needing these things did not make me love him less or want to change our R, they were just things that I did not understand that I still needed to heal. He said whatever I need, and agreed to counseling. No arguing, no raised voices. And he is still getting rid of his prized possessions for us. The sun seems a little brighter today.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Good. Just don't let him back out of it.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

SO I wanted to ask questions last night, but found out that out of the blue, my 9 year olds BFF is moving TODAY - no warning (so I know that they must be having problems worse than mine) and decided to hold off. Anyway, we invited BFF to come over and spend the night, I don't thnk my daughter understands that they probably will not be coming back ever, even though parents are telling kids it is just for 6 - 9 months. So husband took a bunch of pictures of the girls, we took them out to dinner, and she slept over. Last night as we sat down in bed, husband shows me pictures he took and I started bawling. He asked what was wrong, I asked him if he really wanted to know, he said yes, so I told him - my heart aches for my daughter. This is her very best friend...her soul mate of a friend if there ever was one, and now she is going to lose her. She (our daughter), almost lost her family too because of my husband's affair had I not fought so hard. What would have happened if she lost her family and her BFF - how would she cope, how could I comfort her? It hurt, and there was our 4 year old, who crawled up in our bed, snuggled up against him and fell asleep while I was looking at pictures. Just the thought of a broken home kills me. WTF allows a person to cheat and lie and throw their family to the curb for someone as equally, if not more evil, selfish and broken? How can someone not snap out of it? And if they do, can they never fall so low again?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What did he do?


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

His eyes were teared up and red, he wiped my tears, held my hand, then I asked him to put our 4 year old to bed. When he came back, he layed down, held my hand, and that is all I remember. I am so physically and mentally exhausted.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Are you on antidepressants? You need to be on them temporarily; about 3 months should do.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Sounds like you are healing. I hope your husband truly realizes what he has and doesn't stray again. 

I think it is great that you are able to move on from this. Holding resentment won't help.

But ..... your husband has a track record. Keep your eyes and ears open. Trust, but verify. You need to protect yourself and your family.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

LookingForTheSun said:


> His eyes were teared up and red, he wiped my tears, held my hand, then I asked him to put our 4 year old to bed. When he came back, he layed down, held my hand, and that is all I remember. I am so physically and mentally exhausted.


All I can say is that I hope and pray he's finally got it, finally understands just what this all really means and will act upon it.

I have fingers firmly crossed for you


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Not on antidepressants and don't want them or feel I need them. I hate taking any medication (even aspirin), and honestly I am not depressed overall, just sad and heartbroken over the situation - and angry. I need time and positive actions to get me out of this mess. 

I do feel like i am healing. I am more sure of myself, just don't have all of the answers for the hand I have been dealt. I pray too that my husband realizes just how much he screwed up and what a great family wife and children he has and never even comes close to scrwwing up again. He appears to be truly remorseful and on the right track. HOWEVER, yes - he does have a track record, and all indications are that he realizes that and does not want to be the person he was. Again, time will tell, and I pray that this is it for the better. If not, a sad, but but not the end, ending.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Headspin said:


> All I can say is that I hope and pray he's finally got it, finally understands just what this all really means and will act upon it.
> 
> I have fingers firmly crossed for you


Thank you!


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> Sounds like you are healing. I hope your husband truly realizes what he has and doesn't stray again.
> 
> I think it is great that you are able to move on from this. Holding resentment won't help.
> 
> But ..... your husband has a track record. Keep your eyes and ears open. Trust, but verify. You need to protect yourself and your family.


I agree. I just hope the anger is not the last to go.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Your thoughts? Yesterday, I installed a free text app on my phone because I don't have unlimited text and that is how WH and I communicate mostly during the day. We used to use YH IM, but he gave our daughter his smartphone and took hers, so he is limited. I sent him a text that said "hey". He texted "who is this", I texted "who do you think", he said "I don't know"....then he sent me an email from his work account telling me that he just received a random text from an out of state number, told me exactly what was written and asked if I had received any random texts. 

Coincidentaly, I texted him it was me, but there was a delay, hence his email to me. So I told him it was me. I almost sent him a text to say thanks for doing what you were supposed to do - letting me know if something strange happens, but stopped myself, thinking that it might be a good move and make him feel good that he made me feel good, and also thought - no, he should be doing that, and I also don't want him to think that since he proved to me once he could do the right thing, if SHE ever contacted him, that he would not have to say anything because I already feel like he will do the right thing from now on - does that make sense?

ALSO - I came across and old email account he created a few days after DD1 that he never told me about. Honestly, I think he forgot about it because he has given me other logins/pws of other email accounts he had and created. I logged in (guessed the pw), and there was no email or any kind because it said the account had not been used for over 4 months so everything was gone (a msg I got upon logging in Yahoo).

I think it is long forgotton - do I monitor it, or bring it up, such as - are you sure you gave me all email accounts on DD4? Well, I found another account you created back in December 5 days after DD1 when you went back talking to her...Do you remember this account?

Whatever I do, I know I have to approach it calmly. I wanted to say something last night, but my daughter's BFF moved away and she was heartbroken, so attention was on her.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

But here is the thing and not maybe relevant to your case but look what their actions have turned us into 

Jesus fking wept

This is when I get really pissed about it all 

Obviously full steam ahead for you and fingers crossed but look what they have turned us into. I should rename myself Poirot or maybe Clouseau or some other such sleuth...

...although seriously this is one of the bits about these situations that I can never ever forgive. Do you or I or any other BS really want to be behaving like we now HAVE to ?

No of course we don't, but there's no choice now is there 

Annoying as hell


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Headspin - I know - I hate it too. But now I think this is just a part of who we are. If we started a new realtionship, could we really go into it with our eyes closed like we did our marriages? I think I would always be on high alert, looking for something, not wanting to get hurt again - so sad.

What makes me angry (and it may not even be relevant at this point - relevant because of more crap he did to me, but not relevant because of the time he did it) - he created a new email account for me 4 days after DD! to communicate with me - then he created this other account the very next day to use with her - WTF? And the email for me was an email name for a guy, and the email for her was for her and included her age...just so messed up - it hurts to find these things. And this was all right after she stalked me on linked in and posted nasty stuff on my dads facebook page.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Too late for advice. I texted him saying "I love you, but do you have any email accounts I don't know about". He said no, and asked what I was talking about. I told him the name and he said he did not know it. I called him a liar, he called me, I told him that back in Dec he created it and there was proof in one of his email accounts he gave me. He swore he does not remember creating it and that he would have told me if he had.

I know it has not been used for 4 months, and I know that he created other accounts since then that he closed out, so I do belive him. However, he got mad at me and made the comment "this will never end", and I got mad and told him that I found it, wanted him to give him the benefit of doubt. Had it been closed, I would not even had brought it up, but the fact that it was still open, just not used for at least 4 months or more, I wanted to know. He was upset that I called him a liar about this because he did not remember it and said he must have created it, but was so f**ked up back then that he does not remember. I told him that I was not mad about the account and I assumed as much, but I was upset at how he responded. Yes, I called him a liar. Now we are both upset again. 

I told him I just wanted him to say - OK - you are calling me a liar, but I honestly do not remember creating that account. I did, because you found proof, but if I did remember, I would have told you about it. And it ws not one I used. Maybe I just did it and panicked or created it and then decided not to use it because I was messed up....and he did, but I got him mad. Did I attack - yes - after he said he had never seen it before. Is it possible - yes, maybe just because I can't put myself in the mind of a cheater and had no reason to have a new email address every other day.


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## bkaydezz (Jul 9, 2012)

In a past relationship i was in, i was a cheater. I was 16 the first time i had ever done it....then done it again....and again all within a short time. So we get past that and a couple of years later we are married...I cheat again...and again...and again. Not only physically but emotionally. I always blamed it on him not giving me what i needed, but in fact emotionally in our relationship many thigns were absent. That DOES NOT mean i condone what i did too him, What i am trying to say here is that i wasnt happy with myself after i gave myself away to another person. I always felt guilty, but always saught after something else in knowing that i was realy happy. For me, once this happened i couldnt ever truly be happy with him again. But i questioned whether i ever was. Some part of me enjoyed being with him for comfort. Yes i used him in that way (WRONG). Am i perfect NO. You always have to be weary of a cheater if you are still in the relationship with them. I say this because you never really know when they are thinking of acting on something else again. I am not trying to fill your head with anythign here btw. I am just sharing from a cheating point of view. I hope it helps you in some way whatever that may be. I always went back in forth with the i am leaving thing. I finally did and realized that the whole 6 years of that relationship it was what i had wanted since the first time i had cheated. I am ashamed for hurting someone in such a way. I just want you to know that if he is going to cheat he will, once it is in your head it is just a matter of time before it is acted upon. hope yo ucan find some peace


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## bkaydezz (Jul 9, 2012)

( in knowing that i wasnt really happy)*


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

The latest (my response is in UPPERCASE):

I hate myself for the things ive done and it was all in my face again this morning. I don’t say the right things all the time but that doesn’t mean im not being truthful with you.(I TOLD YOU I BELIEVED YOU AFTER, BUT YOU NEVER HEAR THE GOOD I SAY) 



Truth, you don’t know when I’m telling it I get that, that’s why you checked. I’m trying to avoid things that trigger you and you test me yesterday with texts from the same app I used before (IF YOU USED THAT APP YOU DID IT ON ONE OF YOUR BURN PHONES. I ONLY KNOW ABOUT TEXTME - THAT ONE YOU PUT ON YOUR IPHONE AND MY IPAD. I ACTUALLY CHOSE THIS ONE BECAUSE IT WAS NOT THE ONE I WAS AWARE OF AND I WAS NOT TESTING YOU. I WAS TRYING TO SAVE US $$). 



Music songs phone they have all been issues in the last few weeks(THEY ARE ALWAYS AN ISSUE IF THEY REMIND YOU OF ANYTHING THAT HAPPENED IN YOUR LIFE IN THE LAST 10 MONTHS. YOU TOLD ME THEY WERE NOT AN ISSUE, BUT YOU ARE THE ONE WHO DELETED THEM) and that’s why I got rid of them. 



Is it hard to do any job with an unclear head (I KNOW - I AM LIVING IT TOO) yes here its impossible to get work done thinking about how you cheated on your wife and how she is questioning you about an old email account that you cant remember and reminding you of how you screwed her over and how your affair effected her and her parents and the cramp that goes along with it and how everything is your fault!!!!! 



No you don’t have to say triggers yes I get them too but I don’t need a trigger when you come straight out and remind me of everything (SORRY THAT YOU GET THEM, THEY SUCK, NOT MY FAULT. I DON"T SET OUT TO GIVE YOU TRIGGERS. I AM TRYING TO HEAL WITH YOUR HELP BUT YOU REFUSE TO BE SYMPATHETIC WHEN IT IS AN INCONVENIENCE FOR YOU) I did and the people I hurt and how messed up I was and how and what I did for who and when…………………………….(MAYBE YOU SHOULD THINK ABOUT HOW YOU ARE NOT THAT PERSON ANYMORE AND YOU KNOW WHAT ALLOWED YOU TO GET INTO THAT POSITION IN THE FIRST PLACE AND HOW YOU WILL NEVER BE TEMPTED OR ALLOW IT AGAIN. MAYBE YOU SHOULD LIVE AND LEARN FROM IT. STOP DWELLING ON IT. SEE WHAT IS RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR EYES. REPLACE THE BAD EXPERIENCES AND MEMORIES WITH GOOD ONES.



MAYBE WHAT YOU SHOULD BE THINKING ABOUT IS HOW YOUR WIFE AND FAMILY ARE STILL WITH YOU. MAYBE YOU SHOULD TRY TO BE THANKFUL FOR THE LOVE AND COMPASSION THAT YOU ASRE STILL SHOWN. MAYBE YOU SHOULD FINALLY HAVE SOME CLARITY, KNOWING THAT YOU WERE A ****TY PERSON AND NOW YOU HAVE TURNED YOUR LIFE AROUND AND ARE GOING TO HAVE A GREAT, LOVING AND HONEST LIFE. 



TAKE OWNERSHIP FOR WHAT YOU DID, AND THEN BE THE MAN, HUSBAND, FATHER OF THE HOUSE AND CREATE A NEW REALITY AND LIFE FOR US. 



WHEN YOU AT WORK, WORK. WHEN YOU ARE HOME, LOVE AND ENJOY YOUR FAMILY. WAKE UP EACH DAY BEING THANKFUL FOR WHAT


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## bkaydezz (Jul 9, 2012)

hmmm. seems like there is a lot of shame here.

although you are endearing and nurturing him after all this, if he is working on it and you are seeing that he is bettering himself for your marriage and family, then i wouldnt question him right now. That will make it harder for you to put more trust into him. I can tell that you both are actually talking about this which is good.
One thing that is a problem for people is when the in-laws are involved. Share your story but dont let them talk you into anything when you are at a vulnerable place, and fill your head with what ifs and negativity. It's hard because its something you want to hear.

other than that, you both seem to be struggling and working together. good good!!!! if that is what you are BOTH wanting of course!


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Inlaws are not involved at all. His loony OW posted explicit details of their PA on my fathers FB page after we just buried my brother. WH has not spoken to my parents or apologized. My parents support me and pray for us. I don't really talk to them about it other than telling them I have been good or it has been rough. 

I want our marriage to work, and I do believe he does too, but he created his own hurt and can't get past it enough to be sympathetic to me when I need it the most.


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## bkaydezz (Jul 9, 2012)

well then! he shouldnt have done that. you should never post anything personal about your relationship on facebook in the first place. its just asking for an arguement. but if you have a supportive family there is nothing better than that. (sorry for the misunderstand ) I did the same thing as far as sympathy, i just got to where i got aggrivated with my ex for bringing it up. bad on my part, he has the right to talk of it. but if it is something you forgive then it isnt something that should be brought up over and over again. otherwise its something you have completely forgiven. its always going to be there. something yo uhave to live with and its just comes down to whether or not you are wanting to remember that hurt for ever without complete forgiveness or forgiving it and leaving it be orrrrr not being with him so that you can be rememinded of how you have been betrayed by the one who is to love and cherish you. (just my thoughts)


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

OW did it - not my husband. My dad called me the next morning and I could hear in his voice he wanted to tell me something and I told him I already knew. I did not plan to tell them about the affair at all. They had just lost their only son to cancer, my big brother. We did not all have to suffer for my husbands mistakes. I never run to my parents with my problems. Husband did call her after I told him what she did and yelled at her - she first denied it and then said that she was just so upset and was reaching for him. Then he started contact again a day or two later - ?!?!?


Makes me want to contact her BF now and expose her. I hate that sorry excuse for a female.


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## bkaydezz (Jul 9, 2012)

ahwwww no:/ thats really sad im sorry to hear that!!!!

wow.

i am not surprised by his reaction. why would he want to yell at her in the first place? hiding something within all that?

id say go for it as far as telling him. thats what i would do.
not to sure how wise of a choice that would be BUT, if it will give you some peace and let him know that hes being betrayed i think that will maek you feel a little bit better. and him as well!!!!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm sorry for the loss of your brother.

fwiw, I've opened a few email accounts for this or that reason, and have completely forgotten them.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Turnera - I get it. I told him I know that he was FK'd up then and most likely forgot about it. I just did not expect him to not remember it AT ALL, but it is possible - he had a new one every day it seemed. I called him a liar, he got upset, and that made me get upset - because he could not take one of my triggers and what I felt and just be sympathetic and supportive. My triggers tend to ruin a day, and that is not right.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

IDK, I know I've opened at least 2 that I don't even remember the mail carrier of.


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