# Wife moving back in after 3+ year separation



## cdbaker

So two weeks ago, my wife of ten years essentially moved back home to the house I've continued to maintain with our 9-year old daughter. I say "essentially" only because we'll be moving her stuff back home over the next month or two before her apartment lease ends in August. Our separation began around April of 2010, briefly cohabited again in June 2010, before she again left for a new "other man" in July 2010.

Our story is incredibly long and involved (as are many others stories here I imagine), so I'll spare the details here. Married young and became parents young, she grew up without a father (and all the issues that can come along with that), a lot of awful immaturity on both sides, multiple repeated affairs, several marriage counselors giving up on us, porn addiction, eventually a bit of alcohol/drug issues, depression, etc. In the last year, things seem to improve substantially when the "other man" my wife was seduced by was arrested and sentenced to a 3-year prison term for sexual exploitation of a minor under 13y/o. He was (unsurprisingly) an incredibly manipulative individual twice her age who essentially "captured" my wife and withdrew her from her friends, family (including our daughter), etc. and it wasn't until several months after he had been gone that she finally woke up to what had happened. Really I think it was the fact that I knew that she was under his spell and thus wasn't "herself", that enabled me to endure all this time without pulling the trigger on divorce.

I am writing this post because I think I have an incredible story to tell here and I hope to someday be able to use it to help others. So to that end, I first hope that others will see this title and find hope that even the most hopeless looking situations are not necessarily hopeless at all. I've read stories of couples being separated for a year or so, or even divorcing and then reconnected years later with another marriage in between, but I haven't yet seen any stories of couples surviving a 3+ year separation. Granted, we were extremely close to divorce on multiple occasions, with lawyers hired and court dates set (and then delayed, and delayed, and delayed), new lawers hired, lots of dating in between, etc. As any divorced person will tell you, you've never seen the worst of someone until they realize that their impending divorce from you will not go the way they hoped. It's a miserable and financially ruinous thing to go through, and should be avoided at absolutely, without question, all costs.

Certainly we're not exactly out of the woods, her being home only two weeks now. We started this most recent road to recovery back in October last year and little by little we have been reconnecting stronger every week. I let her move into the bedroom while I sleep on the couch just down the hall in order to let her get herself accustomed slowly. There are still some very large issues that we'll have to move past as well, such as:

1. Relationship: We aren't being physical AT ALL. No sex, no kissing, quick friendly hugs are about the limit for the moment.
2. While we have processed through the things that brought our marriage down to begin with, and have corrected most of them, we have not discussed at length much that has transpired during our separation. I imagine there are a lot of questions we both have, like, "how many people have you slept with?" or "When did this or that affair start?" or "What do you think has changed about yourself or what have you discovered in the last three years?", etc.
3. Combining income/expenses again.
4. Trust Rebuilding. This will naturally be a long-term step for both of us.
5. Communication. Another long term step, but it's really lacking right now as we both feel like we're walking on eggshells I think, or at least I do. Not out of fear that I'll anger her, but I don't want to bring up things that will make her uncomfortable too quickly or assume the wrong thing.
6. Sex. Physicality in general. Did I mention that one? Yeah I probably did.

So if anyone has any advice for me on good ways to proceed from here, it would be most welcomed!


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## tom67

I personally would keep finances separate for now. So no intimacy between the two of you? Is she just moving back in for financial reasons? I would be thinking long and hard about this the question is what do you want jmo.


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## WorkingOnMe

Wow. So she moves back in and you get the couch? That's a pretty serious case of oneitis!


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## maincourse99

Pretty amazing. You two must care deeply about each other. I really don't have any advice, for a long time I hoped that my ex and I could reconcile, but I've given that up. I wish you the best.


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## cdbaker

Tom67: Finances will be kept separate in the sense that I don't think we're going to go back to using only a joint checking account. With that said, when she left in 2010, I was left with the mortgage on our house, with our credit card bills, our car payments, our utilities, etc. Now I think what will happen is that she'll start contributing to these financial needs. She has been spending a ton of her money lately on non-essentials while I very seldom have any to spare, so this needs to be worked out. In the past there were times when I questioned if she was staying married only for financial reasons (probably was) but now I don't think that is the case. Since coming home, she has had no problem with paying for a number of things things related to the household including a massive multi-month electric bill I had accidentally let go overdue, our cell phone bill, new laminate wood flooring and paint for our living room, has gone on two grocery shopping trips for our house, etc. So she has already started to contribute financially, and in ways that wouldn't benefit her if her stay was temporary or looking for financial gain.

WorkingOnMe: Well, sort of. Over the last few months, she has spent the night with us at the house a few times as we transitioned. Maybe five or six nights in three months. She had already made clear she planned to move home and not renew her lease, but we never set a move in date. On those nights she would stay over, I would go ahead and let her sleep in "our" bedroom while I slept in the very comfortable couch in our loft just outside of the room. (It is comfy. My wife once slept on it for two months prior to our separation because of her affairs and not being able to face me)

Two weeks ago the plan was simply that she would spend the night as she had before, but she ended up staying two nights, then three, four, etc. and has been here since. In order to do so, she started getting more and more clothes and essentials from her apartment, and after the 5th or 6th day, I went ahead and cleared out all her old drawers and closet space and cleaned/folded/put away her clothes to see how she's react, and she decided she was ok with it. So it all just sort of happened in the last two weeks, without either of us knowing it would turn into that this soon.

I had long ago told her that when she did move back in, that I did not want to just be "roommates" with her. Since she originally was just staying a night or two, I was fine with crashing on the couch. Two weeks in of course, it is starting to feel a little like roommates, but perhaps I am bending my position a bit because everything has improved so much in the last two weeks. We're talking more, we're more comfortable being around each other alone, we're doing everything together (alone or as a family), and for now, hugs are even more frequent and she is initiating them. The other night we watched a movie together in bed before I left to go to sleep, and she woke me a bit early to give me a hug before she left for work at 5:30 this morning. So I guess my current position is simply that as long as she and I are continuing to take positive steps and not simply standing still, then I'll let this play out naturally.


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## TBT

So how do you try to affair proof your reconciliation going forward? Are there firm boundaries,expectations and consequences if they are not kept?


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## cdbaker

TBT: I think those are coming next. Friends have asked me things like that too, like if we are allowed to check each other's phones or e-mail accounts or Facebook, know where the other is when we want to, etc. Right now we haven't really gotten comfortable where we are yet. We have talked about healthy boundaries and unhealthy boundaries, same with healthy and unhealthy expectations. I think the consequences are pretty clear. We've known for a long time that we were at the very cusp of divorce for a long time, and if anything like an affair were to take place now after everything we have put into it at all this time, then the marriage would be over.


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## Battleworn

Wow, you stuck it out all of this time? That is such dedication! I really hope that this sticks with you guys. That's really fantastic that you are planning to stick to your guns about another... slip (putting it nicely) meaning the absolute end. I would think that rushing right into that talk would be difficult, so I think letting it play out naturally, while maybe guiding it gently along, would be good. That way you still have some control over the situation but you can still allow things to settle down first. I read somewhere that it's a good plan to let things build back up between two people, but after a few weeks, to schedule a talk so you two know the boundaries and what happened during the separation.


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## whitehawk

Yeah l just wanna say congrats really and admire what you've been through yet found your way back.
l know from what you say your eyes are open and so really , just all the very best with your new life together and may you happily grow old and fat together :smthumbup:


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## LostViking

How do you deal with the memory of her affairs? Has she ever shown remorse or apologized for the pain she put you through and the danger she put your child in by dating a sex offender? 

I'm not impressed with this woman. Is she going to any counseling to get to the root of her issues?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## doubletrouble

Good luck, OP. I'm rooting for you, knowing that this will not be a simple process. Trust will take a long time to build, and that's what my primary focus would be after such a long time in turmoil. I hope you can both pull as hard as the other on making this work long term.


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## tulsy

I don't see why anyone would pat you on the back and congratulate you for sticking it out....I would pat you on the back for moving on. I mean, I hope it all works out for you, but I think you have rug-swept a lot of the terrible crap she did, and helped feed her cake.

You seem pretty desperate to get her back. I don't think that is a great approach at all. SHE should be the person on the couch, and SHE should be doing the heavy lifting. Your estranged wife went on a sex-romp with at least 4 men that you know of for years. You deserve better than that. You deserve some real answers.

I think you wife really needs to get her self together before you expose your child to this all over again.


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## SadSamIAm

The ground rules that you say you are discussing now should have been agreed to before she ever contemplated moving back.

I am worried about your comments regarding 'healthy' and 'unhealthy' boundaries. Boundaries change once a spouse has been shown to be capable of cheating. There are no 'unhealthy' boundaries in your situation. You should have passwords to everything and you should know where she is at all times.

Also, the financial situation should have been agreed to. It shouldn't be, 'oh she paid this bill' or 'that bill'. It should be agreed that she puts 'X' amount of money in the joint account to pay expenses.

I am worried you aren't protecting yourself (and your child) enough.


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## cdbaker

Battleworn: Yes the plan is to let things settle in for a few weeks/months, but eventually we will sit down to discuss in detail the events of the last three years and some prior. As it stands now, we know what our expectations are, we know where we went wrong and what elements need to change, so that's good. We can't just bury the past though, so we'll address it in time, but we don't want the emotional baggage of that to get in the way right this moment.

Thanks Whitehawk.

LostViking: To clarify a few things... he was not a convicted sex offender when they met and she moved out with him. The events that got him arrested took place (without her knowing) during the spring, summer and fall of 2011. She moved in with him in August of 2010, and he was arrested in late March of 2012. He was under investigation for a long stretch of time prior to the arrest as well, but he kept that from her too. She found out when she came back to their apartment after work one day to find the place swarming with police who were taking her computer, tablet, camera and phone, along with ELEVEN cell phones that belonged to him that she also didn't know about.

She has apologized several times about different things. Not long after leaving me and moving in with him, she apologized for having engaged in another affair, for having cheated on me rather than been up front about problems and seeking a separation/divorce first. When he was arrested, she came to me in tears, utterly revolted to discover the things he had been doing, the fact that she had allowed our daughter to meet him and do things with them together (before I found out about him and put an immediate stop to it, on threat of a nasty, nasty divorce). Thankfully, he never had access to our daughter, so there was no harm done there, though knowing that she was originally ok with them being around each other was enough to break her down into tears. She was utterly humiliated, rock bottom. She has since also apologized more than once for all of the lying and covering up she did both while she was gone and prior to her leaving.

She has been in counseling (though isn't right now) and is on an anti-depressant. My being a pretty crappy husband, her rough childhood, our immaturity, and a few bad choices of hers along the way led her to a lot of the messes she got into, but she's really made nothing but positive choices in the last two years or so, during which time she has been in Nursing school and recently graduated with her LPN certificate and will finish her RN and BSN in the next six months and 18 months respectively.

DoubleTrouble: Thanks for the support. Trust will take a while to rebuild. We're also working on the friendship/relationship first, with nothing sexual or even physical involved. She and I haven't had sex or even kissed in three years.


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## cdbaker

Tulsy: As I said, it's a terribly long story. I can say that I know I share a large portion of the responsibility for what happened. I never cheated, abused her or yelled/screamed, never drank or did drugs or gambled or any of the "obvious" things that a man can do to ruin a marriage, but I was a piss-poor husband. I left her starved for affection, used guilt and manipulation freely, got into some pretty messed up sexual fantasies and more. I drove her away, to the point that any guy who gave her a tiny bit of positive attention, would leave her captivated and vulnerable. I loved her dearly and thought I was a good husband by not doing any of the bad "obvious" things listed above, I worked hard to provide a good living, bought her gifts and supported activities/friends, but in the other important relational/emotional ways, I failed miserably. Cheating was absolutely wrong, she knows that, but I drove her to it, and in some screwy ways even endorsed it. (there was a time when we tried swinging) The sex offender was a smooth talking, manipulative dead beat, all three factors needed for a woman in her position. (charisma to charm her and lure her in, manipulative to break down her values to get her to do what he wanted, a dead beat so as to be "above her" in any way, so she would never have to feel inferior to him, which given her poor self esteem at that time, was a breath of fresh air to not have to worry if you are "good enough")

So maybe I have rug swept a few things, and I know no one should blame themselves fully when a partner cheats, but I am also supremely confident that her adultery never would have occurred if I had been even a half-decent husband. So I feel if I have learned from my mistakes and be a good husband going forward, then I shouldn't have anything to fear from her in that area.


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## cdbaker

SadIAm: I think it is tough to go from no job/career, no savings, and poor self esteem to having earned a degree, built up some financial stability and proven to herself that she can stand on her own, to then agreeing to give up that independence and financial security to give it another try with the man who drove you to despair in the first place. I don't think it is fair to ask that much of her on day one. I think it is best to keep the "requirements" list as short as possible to start, while giving her time to see that I really am a different person than the guy I was three-four years ago. I think that approach as worked pretty well so far too, as every week I see her committing more and more of herself to our family, opening up her privacy a lot more, trusting more, etc.

I mentioned financially she is helping with bills, paying for home improvements, etc. Six months ago, if I had asked, "So which friends did you go out with tonight?" or "What are you going to do after you get off work?" or even "Do you have any plans this weekend?" she would have responded coldly with maybe one word answers or even simply said, "I don't feel comfortable sharing/discussing that with you." Even with nothing worth hiding, she was still incredibly protective, fearful of opening up to me, having been incredibly hurt by both me in our marriage, and the older sex offender (twice her age) she had been in the 21 month relationship with after. Her privacy was her shelter. Now she'll readily trust me to answer virtually any question I would ask, calls me to talk every night on her way home from work until she walks in our front door, and all plans/events are assumed that we'll be doing them together and discussed in advance. She stopped password protecting her phone, tablet and laptop and hides nothing now.

I totally get where you are coming from, and I would probably say the same if a friend of mine were in a similar situation. I am very well aware that throughout this entire process I have left myself incredibly vulnerable both emotionally, and financially. I put a few safe guards in place for my daughter, but even so I know that she was somewhat vulnerable as a result as well. All along I did so on the view that you can't do anything half-way. A very good trusted mentor of mine once told me that if you hold anything back, that is one toe out the door already and once you've got a toe out, it is only a matter of time before you walk through it. So my approach has been that I am all in, without any real regard for myself until I was 100% sure that the marriage could never be saved.

While we are certainly not out of the woods yet, I think it has worked well for me. Either way though, I'll be able to live with my choices without regrets.


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## noas55

Congrats on the possible R. I know you are not looking at this blindly. The great thing is that you & your wife might be able to continue your marriage in a more traditional and loving matter down the road. It takes two to make a marriage work. We all have made mistakes and caused pain in our relationships. Prayers are with you


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## r0r0bin

CD, reconcille is not the right answer for serial cheaters. Let her suffer her decision until the end of her life, the chance you gave her is easily allowing her being forgiven.


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## whitehawk

WorkingOnMe said:


> Wow. So she moves back in and you get the couch? That's a pretty serious case of oneitis!



hey , l had the couch before so if mine moved back in and l got promoted to the bed , things would really be lookin up


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## Jonesey

cdbaker said:


> SadIAm: * I think it is tough to go from no job/career, no savings, and poor self esteem to having earned a degree, built up some financial stability and proven to herself that she can stand on her own, to then agreeing to give up that independence and financial security to give it another try
> 
> *Poor self eastem you say! that does no sound like hade it..
> 
> wit*h the man who drove you to despair in the first place.*
> So you are saying she put up with a whole Sh!ty behavior did you used to have have.Like what
> 
> *
> I don't think it is fair to ask that much of her on day one. I think it is best to keep the "requirements" list as short as possible to start, while giving her time to see that I really am a different person than the guy I was three-four years ago.*So when is it her turn to do the same?
> 
> After all she has been gone for three years.Why do you feel you are only one that has to prove change to her? *.I think that approach as worked pretty well so far too,*Of course it.. She is glad you are not bring up the 3 years she was gone..In other word´s.You just told her 2 things.Every thing was your fault.And that she most likely feel there wont be any commonsense for her.
> 
> has as every week I see her committing more and more of herself to our family, opening up her privacy a lot more, *trusting more,* Really,seriously?? She was the one fone for 3 years.Not you..Why does she feels the need to learn to trust you? should not the be you??
> 
> etc.
> 
> I mentioned financially she is helping with bills, paying for home improvements, etc. *Six months ago, if I had asked, "So which friends did you go out with tonight?" or "What are you going to do after you get off work?" or even "Do you have any plans this weekend?" she would have responded coldly with maybe one word answers or even simply said, "I don't feel comfortable sharing/discussing that with you." Even with nothing worth hiding,*Come on man
> you cant really be saying that.. *she was still incredibly protective, fearful of opening up .
> to me, having been incredibly hurt by both me in our marriage, and the older sex offender (twice her age) she had been in the 21 month relationship with after.*
> What the little perv did,why are you taking blame for it??
> after all she stayed with him for 24 months..That is not your fault..
> 
> Her privacy was her shelter. *Now she'll readily trust me to answer virtually any question I would ask, calls me to talk every night on her way home from work until she walks in our front door, and all plans/events are assumed that we'll be doing them together and discussed in advance. She stopped password protecting her phone, tablet and laptop and hides nothing now.*
> You do realize she is back because
> Because of this right
> "
> *She has apologized several times about different things. Not long after leaving me and moving in with him, she apologized for having engaged in another affair, for having cheated on me rather than been up front about problems and seeking a separation/divorce first. When he was arrested, she came to me in tears, utterly revolted to discover the things he had been doing, *
> If nothing of this has happened do you think she would back
> together with you?
> I´m asking because you seem to take so much blame for everything,that you are missing the fact she was gone for three years. There is nothing wrong to wanna reconcile.But it is,the way you seem taken steps to do..Try not to make so many excuse for her as a minimum...
> 
> I totally get where you are coming from, and I would probably say the same if a friend of mine were in a similar situation. I am very well aware that throughout this entire process I have left myself incredibly vulnerable both emotionally, and financially. I put a few safe guards in place for my daughter, but even so I know that she was somewhat vulnerable as a result as well. All along I did so on the view that you can't do anything half-way. A very good trusted mentor of mine once told me that if you hold anything back, that is one toe out the door already and once you've got a toe out, it is only a matter of time before you walk through it. So my approach has been that I am all in, without any real regard for myself until I was 100% sure that the marriage could never be saved.
> 
> While we are certainly not out of the woods yet, I think it has worked well for me. * Either way though, I'll be able to live with my choices without regrets*.



I truly hopes so.I really do..And i hope you take this post for what it is worth.And not me posting this simply to take some cheap shot´s at you.. I sincerely wish you the best..


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## cdbaker

noas55: Thank-you for your kind words!

r0r0bin: I understand your thoughts, and I might say the same to others based on the minimal info I have provided. (To explain in detail would fill pages and pages and pages) I didn't really explain the root of her extramarital affairs well enough. Prior to her crossing that line, we'd been together for 8 years and married for about six, during which she never strayed once. What led to her being willing to consider such an offense, was a marriage that had degraded to such a point that she had gone several years without feeling loved, cared for, or desired. We were incredibly immature, with wildly unfair expectations for each other. I was more interested in "winning" arguments and being right, being thought highly of by others even at her expense, saw her in many ways as a sex object that was wholly inadequate, lazy and selfish. She certainly had her own issues as well. 

She never sought to cheat or find another man. She felt utterly alone and felt that she wanted to leave the marriage but was enormously afraid to do so. Not out of fear of retribution, as she knows I would never intentionally hurt her, physically/financially, but just out fear of whether she could make it on her own, what kind of custody arrangement she might get of our daughter, what others might think, etc. Women who reach the point of feeling this low often struggle with horrible self esteem, and that leaves them VERY vulnerable to the kind words of any man who comes along to offer them. In her case, there was a short string of them (four or five maybe), some I found out about quickly, others not so quickly. She didn't want to cheat, she didn't love them, she didn't plan to run away with them or even keep someone on the side while staying married to me. She was just miserable, and while planning her exit, they filled her emotional need to feel desirable.

Since she evicted the last guy from her life while we were apart, she was basically "single" for the better part of 18 months, with no dating in between while she focuses on school and being a better part time mom to our daughter. Since then she's learned to stand up for herself, speak her mind freely, and has fully accepted how wrong the things she did were. Specifically the cheating, as opposed to just coming out and telling me that she wanted out of the marriage to let things play out.

I think we also need to understand that men and women cheat for VERY different reasons. Women are less likely than men to cheat for a cheap thrill and their reasons for being willing to cross that line are very different as well. So having learned as much as I have in the last few years, I can look back and believe quite firmly that had she and I (mostly me) not allowed things to reach such an ugly low in our relationship and not surpressed her to such a degree that she felt she could not escape, that she never would have cheated. Therefore I am willing to trust her for a multitude of reasons *despite* her past, just as she has shown she is willing to do for me.


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## cdbaker

Jonesey: Responding to your post is difficult given how broken up it is... but I'll try...

Yes I said she had poor self esteem prior to accomplishing the things I mentioned, like completing her degree, building up financial stability and proving that she can stand on her own. The key word there is PRIOR.

Asking me to explain my role in "driving her to despair" and bringing down the marriage is perfectly legitimate. Trying to be as concise as possible, I'll list some reasons/examples of my own ****ty behavior:

1. Terribly immature.
2. Unrealistic expectations, by which I relentlessly judged her. (Sexually especially)
3. Pornography addiction.
4. Pushed her hard to dabble in swinging and swapping of sex partners to meet my own disturbing fetishes at the time, leading her to feeling like nothing more than a sex object.
5. Regularly "throwing her under the bus" in order to make myself look better in the eyes of others, regularly looking to be seen as a perfect husband. (Being viewed as a wonderful husband/father can be a way to make her feel like she needs to step up in her duties by making her feel inadequate or unworthy)
6. Financially irresponsible.
7. Emotionally Manipulative.
8. Selfish.
9. Intense need to be right, to win, all the time.
10. Poor leader.
11. Uninvolved father.

and all kinds of variations of the above mentioned. She had her own issues too. Laziness, financial irresponsibility, etc. So to be honest, yes I still feel that I am responsible for the lions share of the fault here.

I look at the last three years as a situation of... well we both did things we aren't proud of. (I dated, and had sex lots of times while we were apart. Technically as we were still married, that's cheating too for example) We're trying to start over, so the things that happened in the past are mostly irrelevant to me. Sure my curiosity is dying to know, but that really isn't important.

I think one issue here is that people have a tendency to immediately place most of the fault/blame on someone the moment they find out that person cheated. You hear about two people who are splitting up and one of them cheated on the other near the end, and immediately most people will assume that the relationship's failure is mostly the fault of the cheater. They might not have any idea about the abuse, the violence, the addictions or other factors that might be involved, but they have already judged the cheater. 

I think that is sort of what has happened with us. I feel like I am probably 75% responsible for the marriage hitting the low that it did, that drove her to be so vulnerable to the kind words of other men. So was she wrong to cheat? Absolutely. Is that her responsibility? You bet it is, and she accepts that. Do I have every right to be angry at her for it? Yes I do, but not too much so. If I drove us to bankruptcy, to living on the street, and then she gets caught for stealing gas to get to work on time, then shouldn't I share the blame for that? Yes, I was hurt terribly by her actions, but isn't it reasonable for me to share the blame for driving her to to that point?


I'm sure I am guilty of having made excuses for her before, and will continue to be from time to time. Sometimes I think that is part of the job in a relationship. All I know is that I love the girl, I think she loves me too, and based on what we learned about ourselves while we were apart, and the changes we have made, I see no reason to think that we won't be happy together in the future.


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## FeministInPink

Wow, cdbaker, it's amazing how your most recent post on this thread reflects much of what happened in my marriage. I didn't cheat, but I had multiple opportunities to do so - and your list of behaviors? 80% of them apply to the way my STBXH treated me during our marriage.

But this, especially:



cdbaker said:


> Yes I said she had poor self esteem prior to accomplishing the things I mentioned, like completing her degree, building up financial stability and proving that she can stand on her own. The key word there is PRIOR.


My STBXH has severe co-dependency issues, and once I didn't need to depend on him anymore, that's when the really BAD behavior started. And when we separated, he was like you - doing a lot of skirt chasing and looking for sex (which he did eventually find), and it didn't seem to matter to him that this WAS cheating. He was still married to me, and I had never asked him for a divorce - I was, in fact, hoping that some time apart would help him find some clarity and help him to recognize what he did to sabotage our marriage. If he could do that, then we could finally work towards saving our marriage. But ultimately, I don't think he's capable of that; he's emotionally crippled, or scared, or a combination of things.

So I'm moving on. Or doing my best to make it through, until I have moved on.

But I'm glad that you're able to recognize the part you played, and I'm really glad you guys are working on it. And I wish you nothing but the best.


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## JDL8787

We are like the same guy, I've been there man... My wife was driven into madness because of like 7 of those 11 things you listed, you nailed it. Not a WAS (walk away spouse), but a NPS (Never present spouse).

Just as bad, in my honest opinion.


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## FeministInPink

JDL8787 said:


> We are like the same guy, I've been there man... My wife was driven into madness because of like 7 of those 11 things you listed, you nailed it. Not a WAS (walk away spouse), but a NPS (Never present spouse).
> 
> Just as bad, in my honest opinion.


JD, I hope you're working on these things, then, now that you realize some of your mistakes?


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## JDL8787

FeministInPink said:


> JD, I hope you're working on these things, then, now that you realize some of your mistakes?


Those things are completely behind me. There is some truth to the saying that there is Beauty in Tragedy... It really REALLY teaches us not to take things for granted.

No one owes us Sh**, my wife loved me because she loved me, not because she had too.


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## bbird1

Like so many others i say finances should remain separate and you should charge her rent.

For right now she is a room mate nothing more. if she is in a bad way maybe have her clean house, make meals to pay for her stay. Else split things accordingly do not baby her.

Stay strong with the sex thing. Do NOT give in on this for now.


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## cdbaker

Feminist: Gosh at first I didn't understand what you were talking about, lol. My first thought was, "I wasn't chasing women or cheating on my wife..." until I realized that you probably meant during our long separation. (This is an old thread and I couldn't remember what all had been shared in it) Yep I did my share of "skirt chasing" while apart. Though I think it was at least a bit different in that my wife was openly living and sleeping with a new boyfriend and had directly stated that she wanted a divorce. Eventually she said she wasn't sure about the divorce and we put it off, but she was still with the other man. So yes I fully recognize that what I was doing was still adultery because we were still married.

As for your husband, if he can't recognize that he is going to miss you and the marriage/family, and then translate that into an effort to figure out where he went wrong, then I'm not sure if there is much hope. I think it is actually pretty common for a recently separated spouse to feel a sudden sense of euphoria and freedom when the daily pressures/anger/unhappiness of the troubled marriage is temporarily set aside, and that euphoria can be extremely misleading. Misleading in the sense that it can make you feel like the spouse/marriage is what was keeping you from being happy, when that might not be the case at all, but it's common for figuring that part out to take a few months or more, because it has to run it's course naturally and can't be pushed by the spouse. So... it's certainly possible he'll still wake up and figure stuff out, but not exactly likely either unfortunately.

I do hope it all works out for you!


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## FeministInPink

cd, yeah, that's what I meant! Didn't intend to confuse  And yes, your situation is different, but my STBXH says (claims?) that he thought I hated him and wanted a divorce, as if that justifies his actions since we separated.

And he's not going to wake up and figure this stuff out, at least not anytime in the window of time during which I would be willing to wait. We've only been separated for six months, but I've been waiting for him to figure this all out for much, MUCH longer than that.



cdbaker said:


> Misleading in the sense that it can make you feel like the spouse/marriage is what was keeping you from being happy, when that might not be the case at all, but it's common for figuring that part out to take a few months or more, because it has to run it's course naturally and can't be pushed by the spouse.


:iagree:

This is where he is right now, and where he will remain for a very long time, if not forever. Once he convinces himself of something, it's nearly impossible to shake him of any such conviction, even if you can disprove him with facts, evidence, and/or science. He's not as self-aware as he thinks he is, and if he knew himself only half as well as I know him, he might stand a chance at some sort of happiness.

I can't spend my life waiting around for him to figure things out. There's a better life for me than what he can offer, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let it pass me by because of a slim-to-none chance that he might wake up and figure it out.

Things will work out for me - just not with him. And I'm OK with that, for the most part. I'm working through it, and I'm getting there. Not the fastest process, but I'm moving ahead, and each day gets just a little better.


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## cdbaker

JDL, forgive me but I don't remember your situation in particular. Are you and your wife still together or in reconciliation?

It can really be tough to overcome one's own ego, and I could see it being even harder for men.


bbird1: A handful of things have changed in the last few months, enough to the point that I might go ahead and start a new thread soon. But even if I were to imagine responding as if it were a few months ago when I first posted this, I think I would disagree. I would agree that it's important to not start bending over backwards for her, but to treat her worse that I would want to treat my wife on a good day would be a mistake. Doing so implies that she deserves my punishment or that she has a debt to repay or prove herself to me before she'll be worthy of being treated as my spouse.

I tend to think that a real reconciliation plan needs to reach a point of both spouses forgiving each other and agreeing to start with a clean slate. (Maybe with a few exceptions, like if one spouse had an affair or had a drug/alcohol problem, then perhaps there should be some terms in place for that, but purely for the sake of accountability, not control/punishment) Without that clean slate, there will always be that feeling of debt, that I was worse than her or she worse than me, that one of us can feel superior to the other, or that the past can be dug up to support any new disagreement/argument/frustration. To a degree, I think we had to bury the past and accept that we were different people, with different agenda's at that time. Any wrong or hurtful thing we did in the past usually happened because of the fact that we weren't husband and wife at those times, we didn't have that obligation to each other.

It's like... I dated a lot of women during the separation. I was married, we were no longer pursuing divorce, so really it was adultery. She could be angry as hell at me forever about that. But realistically, she was still living in a relationship with the OM, we weren't really talking, certainly not seeing each other or doing anything together, and there was zero separation plan or even an indication of a reconciliation on the horizon. I was alone, living for myself, and how could she really honestly blame me? So I wasn't sneaking around behind her back or breaking an active commitment to her in seeing other women. That commitment had been broken long before. I think viewing it all this way also helps with the forgiveness.

So I don't know about "babying" her, but I do intend to treat her the way I think a wife should be treated, from day one. Enough time has passed and she has taken enough steps to show that she is committed to reconciliation that I do not fear that this is a ploy or anything like that. If there is no cause for fear, and forgiveness has been given on both sides, then I believe it is best to start fresh.


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## cdbaker

FeministInPink said:


> cd, yeah, that's what I meant! Didn't intend to confuse  And yes, your situation is different, but my STBXH says (claims?) that he thought I hated him and wanted a divorce, as if that justifies his actions since we separated.
> 
> And he's not going to wake up and figure this stuff out, at least not anytime in the window of time during which I would be willing to wait. We've only been separated for six months, but I've been waiting for him to figure this all out for much, MUCH longer than that.
> 
> 
> 
> :iagree:
> 
> This is where he is right now, and where he will remain for a very long time, if not forever. Once he convinces himself of something, it's nearly impossible to shake him of any such conviction, even if you can disprove him with facts, evidence, and/or science. He's not as self-aware as he thinks he is, and if he knew himself only half as well as I know him, he might stand a chance at some sort of happiness.
> 
> I can't spend my life waiting around for him to figure things out. There's a better life for me than what he can offer, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let it pass me by because of a slim-to-none chance that he might wake up and figure it out.
> 
> Things will work out for me - just not with him. And I'm OK with that, for the most part. I'm working through it, and I'm getting there. Not the fastest process, but I'm moving ahead, and each day gets just a little better.


Well, as far as his thinking the cheating wasn't a big deal because he thought you hated him and wanted a divorce, I would ask what was the status of your marriage at that time? Separated yes, but were you seeing each other or communicating regularly? Was it clear that reconciliation was a planned eventuality? Were you both making efforts to move in the direction of reconciliation or drifting further apart? Had it been made clear by both of you that exclusivity was still expected during the separation? (Not just assumed because you are married, but specifically reaffirmed at the start of the separation?) I'm not trying to defend him by any stretch, but I do think it's only fair to analyze it. If a separation is clearly moving towards divorce, with no rules/plan in place, no expectations clarified, then I think it might be unfair to be too angry. In his case though, it sounds like he didn't wait very long at all before he started looking for other women...

Remember that the "Separation fog" can be incredibly convincing, in the same way that "affair fog" is. So no, it will be very difficult for him to figure anything out while still entrenched in it. He has to pass through it for a while and let it dissipate on it's own before he can see reality. Of course, reality might be that you and him are better off apart, but he can't really know that for sure while in the fog.

In the mean time, either way, it sounds like you've got yourself figured out and doing the right things. Focus on yourself now and whether he figures himself out or not, you'll turn out better off either way. Best of luck to you!


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## FeministInPink

cdbaker said:


> Well, as far as his thinking the cheating wasn't a big deal because he thought you hated him and wanted a divorce, I would ask what was the status of your marriage at that time? Separated yes, but were you seeing each other or communicating regularly? Was it clear that reconciliation was a planned eventuality? Were you both making efforts to move in the direction of reconciliation or drifting further apart? Had it been made clear by both of you that exclusivity was still expected during the separation? (Not just assumed because you are married, but specifically reaffirmed at the start of the separation?) I'm not trying to defend him by any stretch, but I do think it's only fair to analyze it. If a separation is clearly moving towards divorce, with no rules/plan in place, no expectations clarified, then I think it might be unfair to be too angry. In his case though, it sounds like he didn't wait very long at all before he started looking for other women...
> 
> Remember that the "Separation fog" can be incredibly convincing, in the same way that "affair fog" is. So no, it will be very difficult for him to figure anything out while still entrenched in it. He has to pass through it for a while and let it dissipate on it's own before he can see reality. Of course, reality might be that you and him are better off apart, but he can't really know that for sure while in the fog.
> 
> In the mean time, either way, it sounds like you've got yourself figured out and doing the right things. Focus on yourself now and whether he figures himself out or not, you'll turn out better off either way. Best of luck to you!


We were making no progress in counseling - in large part because he was going to the sessions, and telling the counselor what she wanted to hear, but wasn't doing any of the work or making any effort outside of counseling - and the tension at home was palpable. The therapist hinted at the possibility of separation, and the next week my STBXH came in to counseling and said, "I think we should separate." 

What we agreed on, in counseling, was that we would take six months to live apart, to work on ourselves and identify/work on how we each contributed to our marital problems. At the end of six months, we would reconvene and discuss whether we (mutually) wanted to pursue reconciliation, or divorce. The counselor asked if we would continue to see one another, to talk, during the separation; my STBXH insisted adamantly that he wanted to continue to see me and talk to me, that we could talk on the phone and date each other during the separation. Two weeks later, he moved out (02/10/13), and I pretty much never heard from him again.

With the exceptions of: 1) a text in late Feb, to let me know he was stopping by our apartment to pick up some clothing; 2) a text in early April to inquire about our taxes, which I had already filed; and 3) a phone call in mid-July (I called him) about some problems with the car.

All of this from the man who insisted that he would do "whatever it takes" to save our marriage. He couldn't even call me up for a date. I had been carrying our relationship for years; all I was looking for was a little bit of effort on his part. Over the years, I had continually lowered my expectations so much so that they couldn't have possibly gone any lower, and he still couldn't even do that. 

ANY COMMUNICATION FROM HIM AT ALL during this period would have been welcome, but by this point he had been methodically ignoring me for years. Because he worked nights (Tues-Sat) and I worked days (Mon-Fri), so I could go days without seeing him or talking to him. I could call or text, but I never knew if I would get a response. If he texted me (he NEVER called), it would be logistical (like, "can I eat these leftovers?"). I'm surprised that he hadn't resorted to communicating via grunts by the end.


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## cdbaker

Ouch, yeah I understand. It makes me wonder if he wasn't in some way pursuing other women even before he actually moved out. Sudden shifts in behavior and commitment like that typically don't happen for no reason at all.

So yeah, I would call his relationship with the OW an affair/cheating. That's terribly unfortunate.


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## FeministInPink

cdbaker said:


> Ouch, yeah I understand. It makes me wonder if he wasn't in some way pursuing other women even before he actually moved out. Sudden shifts in behavior and commitment like that typically don't happen for no reason at all.
> 
> So yeah, I would call his relationship with the OW an affair/cheating. That's terribly unfortunate.


My STBXH has a LOT of emotional baggage and issues that he doesn't even realize that he's carrying around. 

And I know that he flirts with a lot of women at work - he's a bartender/manager, and he says "it's part of my job." It never really bothered me, since I knew he was coming home to me, and EVERYONE at his workplace knew he was married, so even the women knew there was no intention behind the flirting.

But maybe he was laying some subconscious groundwork? Who knows...


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## FeministInPink

But he definitely wasn't pursuing any other women actively. He was too lazy for that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FeministInPink

And I don't think it was for no reason at all... I just don't know the reason.

He said he thought that I hated him ans never wanted to see him again, and that I wanted a divorce. None of which I ever said. I said "I'm unhappy with our marriage."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hereinthemidwest

let me this if i get this right. She cheated and left. Didn't work out and running home. Thou you feel you pushed her out because your guilty of:

1. Terribly immature.
2. Unrealistic expectations, by which I relentlessly judged her. (Sexually especially)
3. Pornography addiction.
4. Pushed her hard to dabble in swinging and swapping of sex partners to meet my own disturbing fetishes at the time, leading her to feeling like nothing more than a sex object.
5. Regularly "throwing her under the bus" in order to make myself look better in the eyes of others, regularly looking to be seen as a perfect husband. (Being viewed as a wonderful husband/father can be a way to make her feel like she needs to step up in her duties by making her feel inadequate or unworthy)
6. Financially irresponsible.
7. Emotionally Manipulative.
8. Selfish.
9. Intense need to be right, to win, all the time.
10. Poor leader.
11. Uninvolved father.

I would of left too. Let me guess your threesomes were you sleeping with her and her bestfriend? Don't want seem harsh on you BUT DUDE... when you bring other people into your marriage bed you open yourself up for failure. I know three couples who done this and all three divorced.


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## cdbaker

Yep, I agree. I kind of got what I deserved, and I don't try to hide from that. She had her issues too of course, beyond the cheating, but most of them were just as petty as many of mine. (Immaturity, unrealistic/unfair expectations, irresponsibility, etc.)

One correction as it relates to the swinging/swapping stuff. I myself never actually participated. We never got that far and I never even reached the point of advocating for myself to play with others. At the time I was just desperate for a sexual relationship with my wife and was at my wits end on how to do it. After years of our sex life consisting of about 2x per YEAR, three different therapists, untold numbers of attempted romance, etc., I was just dumb and thought maybe if I could go to an extreme to find some way to excite her, even if that meant letting her play with others and THEN involving me, that maybe that would wake up her sexuality and we could then share a normal sex life ourselves. I do mean it when I say that me sleeping with other people was never ever a goal in that (admittedly dumb-as-hell) plan. So yes I confess that I was an idiot in that failure, but not exactly a scoundrel.


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## cdbaker

Well I have spent a lot of time reading and commenting on the threads of others, I haven't provided a true update to my own situation, so here goes. As usual, I'm sure it's going to be long, so I apologize in advance.

I left off in late June. At that time, my wife had moved back in somewhat unexpectedly the first week of June. I was sleeping on the couch in order to let her feel more comfortable with being back home and out of my desire to show her that there was no expectation of anything sexual from her. She immediately set to work on some basic remodeling like repainting rooms, replacing trim/cabinets, reorganizing closets, re-purposing our "TV Room" into a play room for our daughter, etc. All good stuff.

So now it's almost exactly two and a half months later. In that time she has fully moved back home and the apartment lease expired. She has really re-integrated well back into our family. She's reasonably helpful around the house (not to where I'd like her to be, but better than it used to be), she definitely operates in "we" mode and not "I" mode now, and we're all getting along pretty well. She also started her final semester of nursing school a couple of weeks ago, so now she is busy with that and I handle probably 80% of household chores, but I'm really ok with that. (Heck it was 100% for three years) Also, we are now sleeping in the same bed as of about two and a half weeks ago.

So now for the concerns... The biggest one is that I feel like we are roommates. There has been absolutely ZERO romantic activity of any kind. Like nothing, nada. Seriously, not even a single kiss. As in she hasn't kissed me since June of 2010. Hugs are about as far as it's gone, and even those are the quick "Here is your complimentary welcome home from work hug" that lasts all of .5 seconds. She'll let me kiss her on top of her head, but that's IT. Further, she doesn't even feel comfortable touching at all. No hand holding, no shoulder rubs or foot massages, (receiving too), just no touching. A few weeks ago she meekly replied "I love you" after I said it myself, which I felt like a breakthrough, but not she only says it maaaybe once a week at most, and only in reply.

The really lousy part is that my love language is physical touch. Sex certainly is a part of that of course, but really that literally just means touch. It used to fill my love tank tremendously if she would hold my hand, lean in on my shoulder while watching TV/a movie, touch my back when she walks into a room to ask me a question, or cuddles even a little bit in bed. Literally any kind of touch. She KNOWS this too, as we went to a marriage conference with that being a major topic several years ago and I've brought it up twice since she's been back home, making it extremely clear. She still actively avoids any kind of touching and displays visible annoyance if I dare touch her in any way, shape or form. (Ex. Reached for her hand while on a walk, resting my hand on her hip while going to sleep, trying to offer her a quick shoulder rub after her volleyball practice, etc.)

From her side, I have tried to be very supportive. Naturally she and I both have a lot of history we have to try to move past in rebuilding trust and security in one another. Our issues include my prior porn addiction, pushing her to be sexual with me (we averaged maybe 3x per YEAR), getting her to try sex with another guy just to see if her libido could be rebooted, etc. Shameful stuff I know. On her side, the OM she had the affair with and then moved out with for about two years turned out to be a controlling, manipulative, sex addict and pedophile, for which he is now in the state penitentiary. So she experienced a lot of sexual pressure and betrayal through him as well, in addition to some less major issues going further back before our marriage.

Knowing all this, and wanting to be as understanding and supportive as possible, I have already promised her that I won't have any expectation of sex from her for the foreseeable future. I sort of pegged that limit as being the end of this year. I truly have kept that promise too, I haven't even hinted or been suggestive of anything sexual, and I'm positive she would confirm that. But lately she has said that she still has trust issues with me, she still needs to see things change for an extended period of time, and she still feels sexually damaged by various issues from the past described above. However she has said that I am doing all the right things and there is nothing more I could be doing that I am not already doing. With that said, she now says that even physical touch of any kind falls into her discomfort zone. I am struggling with that notion because I can't understand why, fully aware of how much such little things would mean to me, she can't just hold my hand once in a while, or touch my back/shoulder to get my attention, or even offer a simple kiss or anything once in a while. I'm talking like one or two little touches per day.

It's like, if I burned down a children's hospital while trying to cook a large dinner, I might have difficulty in bringing myself to be comfortable with cooking again. That makes sense. But if I knew it would mean the world to my wife if I could just throw a pop-tart on a plate for her, then couldn't I do that much?

It sounds incredibly petty right now as I write it, but for someone with a physical touch love language, it means everything to me. I mean, we both have to make enormous efforts to work through our past issues and rebuild a strong marriage, but when I sit and think very long about the fact that she can't bring herself to hold my hand for a moment while on a walk, knowing how doing so will make my love tank burst past the "fill to" line, it just makes me question her commitment completely. It makes me question if she cares about me at all. Or maybe it's a physical attraction issue and she is just trying to be nice by making up an excuse. (I'm not obese, I shower/brush teeth dailiy, use deodorant & cologne, etc.) It definitely leads me to having good days and bad days. Good days are when I can psych myself up and forget about it, and the bad days are when I am unable to avoid dwelling on it.

So I feel kind of stuck. I have always said that I can be as patient as she needs me to be (even going without sex beyond this year if need be) AS LONG as we are consistently moving forward, as long as things are improving and she is making an effort. Things ARE pretty consistently moving forward. She is making some efforts in other areas. She is working on saying she appreciates things I do, occasionally performing a nice gesture like making a favorite meal of mine, communicating better, etc. I won't go into all the ways I am showing her love and communicating because she says I am doing great, and I do actively think of such things repeatedly throughout the day. (Her love language is words of affirmation and quality time) But I struggle daily with this physical touch thing.

It sucks to have to keep going day in and day out FEELING unloved, undesired, disrespected, etc. but at the same time feeling pretty confident that she is making an effort, that she does care about me and she does have respect for me. Logically I think things are going pretty well, I'd give it a 7 out of 10. Emotionally/Physically, I'd give it a 3 out of 10. Sooo, for anyone who managed to finish this long-winded post, does anyone have any suggestions for me? Things I could be doing to cope, or things I could do/say to my wife that might help, or even just other opinions that might help me better understand/accept what she is saying?


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## FeministInPink

cdbaker, you are NOT being petty. Physical intimacy is a HUGE thing, and I know where you're coming from right now. The last two years of my marriage, my now-STBXH never touched me in in any way, and we only had sex 2-4x/yr (and when we did it was horrible). To have the person you love most in the world not want to touch you, and who flinches or recoils from your touch, is a very difficult thing, especially when your love language is physical affection (which it is for me).

_*EDIT:* In my experience, it completely eroded my self-esteem. I felt ugly, unloved, unsexy, worthless, etc, etc... and that seeped into other parts of my life as well. I think the partners doing the rejecting really have no understanding of the psychological impact when they deny their partners intimacy. I find it to be an INCREDIBLY selfish behavior. I'm not talking about the occasional "no"; I'm talking about the continual, repetitive, denial of physical intimacy (both sexual and non-sexual) that you and I have both experienced._

Does she know that you have this internal deadline for the end of the year? If she doesn't, it's really not fair to her - or to you, either. Our partners cannot meet our expectations if we don't tell them what those expectations are.

Now that she's moved back in, are the two of you in counseling? She definitely needs it if she feels she can't trust YOU after what the AP did to her, but you probably need it together as well if you guys are going to get through this together.

I mean, I'm really happy that the two of you seem to be moving forward in a positive direction, but she can't expect you to live like a monk for the rest of your life, if you know what I mean. All these small changes/improvements are great, but it doesn't really add up to much if you can't be intimate (within a reasonable amount of time). It seems like this situation requires a somewhat delicate balance of having patience with her while also prioritizing your own needs.


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## Iver

I guess I'd put a timeframe on it - say by January 2014 if things aren't significantly better then discuss an amicable divorce. Don't drag it out as is for another year.

I'd think marital counseling is a must if you want to see improvements as well. Insist on this and if it's a no go on her part, well then, time for the divorce.

The bottom line here is your wife has to understand the status quo is not an acceptable long term position.


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## cdbaker

Feminist: Oh gosh yes, I know that sexual intimacy is absolutely a necessity in marriage, no question. That wouldn't be a petty request. What I felt seems kind of petty is me making a big deal of even regular non-sexual touches, like literally just touching! If I just stop to think about it for very long, it frustrates me to think that she can't just suck it up and hold my hand on a walk for example. I think the issue though is that I can't bring myself to believe her when she says that any and all forms of touch are part of her current insecurity/discomfort with me that she is apparently trying to work through. I totally get why sexual intimacy might be an issue that needs some time in order to reconnect, but hand holding? Touches in passing or walking into a room? Hugs? Simple kisses? (Not making out) Etc.? I just struggle to believe it is all. I wish other women here could tell me if it makes sense to them and I just need to accept it.

As far as telling her of my "internal deadline", no I have not, but I think I really made a bigger issue of it than it is. Really I haven't thought much yet about how much time I want to comfortably offer. I really truly figured that as long as we were still consistantly moving forward, even if it is a slow pace, that I would continue to be patient. I think I've just been kind of hoping that it wouldn't cross into 2014.

With that said, another element involved here, and this may sound crazy, is that she and I both only have our one child (a daughter, 9 years old) and we want more kids. Earlier in our marriage, she wanted more kids badly but I wasn't comfortable having more kids while we still lived in a sexless marriage. I wanted her to figure that out before committing to more responsibility with her. Looking back I think this was a really really cruel thing for me to do, saying (and knowing) that I loved her but at the same time denying her children until she would "figure out her problem" and get her sex drive on track. Now I can see that it was my general attitude and controlling, prideful nature that was largely responsible for most of her sexual disinterest. She didn't feel loved by me, so (to be blunt) opening her legs to me felt very wrong. I very truly deeply loved her, but I just didn't realize I was doing anything wrong.

It's like when you see a story on TV about a man who beats his wife. At first thought, you might assume that he doesn't care about her at all, but in all likelihood, he probably loves her very deeply, he just doesn't know how to properly treat her or control his own emotions. To be clear, I have never ever remotely so much as raised my voice in anger to her, let alone my fist or anything similar, nor have I ever called her a disrespectful name.

So she and I both want more kids. We want to wait until she is out of school, and to give us some more time to make sure our relationship is on solid ground. She has directly told me that she feels that January 2014 would be a good timeframe to start trying to get pregnant. So maybe that is part of why I have the end of this year as being a very unofficial "end of the sex blockade", lol. Really though, I would think there should be a period of time where we are working up to "let's get pregnant" from "Haven't kissed in three and a half years."

And as bad as it sounds, I don't want to be completely without intimacy until the day that she decides she is ready to get pregnant. That would make me feel like her desire to have another baby is worth her making the apparently incredibly difficult decision to allow our skin to come into contact for, but my emotional/physical needs weren't. For the record, I don't really believe that is the case, nor do I believe that she is doing anything like this intentionally. I think she just figures/believes/hopes that in time alone she'll find herself more willing to engage in physical contact. That all we need is more time for continued relationship and trust rebuilding, and the physical stuff will come with it. I'm just not so confident that that will be the case.


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## cdbaker

I think putting a timeframe on anything, an ultimatum really, is almost always a bad thing in a loving relationship. I think you have to be flexible. It might be ok to give a timeframe for when I'd hope things will be better, but if the time comes and there are other circumstances to consider or there has been a lot of positive steps taken, then patience would be in order.

I go back and forth on martial counseling for us. On one hand, I feel there are needs that I'd like to see met, but I also completely understand that she has legitimate trust issues and a lot of painful sexual betrayals in her past, including those created by myself. Further, I can see that she is making forward progress in other areas, some I described above and some things I haven't. We have regular constructive communication with no unhealthy or unfair fighting involved. No abuse, no drugs/alcohol, no boundaries issues. We are supportive of each other, and things are getting a little bit better every day.

I guess if things were getting worse, or simply not getting better, then going back to MC would certainly make more sense to me. And honestly, I don't even think she is strongly opposed to MC. I think for her it's mostly a time and money concern as we are both really super busy and with her not working, the budget is tight as it is.

She certainly knows that the status quo isn't acceptable where it is right now, but again, things are improving every day. Certainly I wish they were improving faster, but it's mostly just this one key area that has been bugging me relentlessly.


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## FeministInPink

cdbaker said:


> Feminist: Oh gosh yes, I know that sexual intimacy is absolutely a necessity in marriage, no question. That wouldn't be a petty request. What I felt seems kind of petty is me making a big deal of even regular non-sexual touches, like literally just touching! If I just stop to think about it for very long, it frustrates me to think that she can't just suck it up and hold my hand on a walk for example. I think the issue though is that I can't bring myself to believe her when she says that any and all forms of touch are part of her current insecurity/discomfort with me that she is apparently trying to work through. I totally get why sexual intimacy might be an issue that needs some time in order to reconnect, but hand holding? Touches in passing or walking into a room? Hugs? Simple kisses? (Not making out) Etc.? I just struggle to believe it is all. I wish other women here could tell me if it makes sense to them and I just need to accept it.
> 
> As far as telling her of my "internal deadline", no I have not, but I think I really made a bigger issue of it than it is. Really I haven't thought much yet about how much time I want to comfortably offer. I really truly figured that as long as we were still consistantly moving forward, even if it is a slow pace, that I would continue to be patient. I think I've just been kind of hoping that it wouldn't cross into 2014.
> 
> With that said, another element involved here, and this may sound crazy, is that she and I both only have our one child (a daughter, 9 years old) and we want more kids. Earlier in our marriage, she wanted more kids badly but I wasn't comfortable having more kids while we still lived in a sexless marriage. I wanted her to figure that out before committing to more responsibility with her. Looking back I think this was a really really cruel thing for me to do, saying (and knowing) that I loved her but at the same time denying her children until she would "figure out her problem" and get her sex drive on track. Now I can see that it was my general attitude and controlling, prideful nature that was largely responsible for most of her sexual disinterest. She didn't feel loved by me, so (to be blunt) opening her legs to me felt very wrong. I very truly deeply loved her, but I just didn't realize I was doing anything wrong.
> 
> It's like when you see a story on TV about a man who beats his wife. At first thought, you might assume that he doesn't care about her at all, but in all likelihood, he probably loves her very deeply, he just doesn't know how to properly treat her or control his own emotions. To be clear, I have never ever remotely so much as raised my voice in anger to her, let alone my fist or anything similar, nor have I ever called her a disrespectful name.
> 
> So she and I both want more kids. We want to wait until she is out of school, and to give us some more time to make sure our relationship is on solid ground. She has directly told me that she feels that January 2014 would be a good timeframe to start trying to get pregnant. So maybe that is part of why I have the end of this year as being a very unofficial "end of the sex blockade", lol. Really though, I would think there should be a period of time where we are working up to "let's get pregnant" from "Haven't kissed in three and a half years."
> 
> And as bad as it sounds, I don't want to be completely without intimacy until the day that she decides she is ready to get pregnant. That would make me feel like her desire to have another baby is worth her making the apparently incredibly difficult decision to allow our skin to come into contact for, but my emotional/physical needs weren't. For the record, I don't really believe that is the case, nor do I believe that she is doing anything like this intentionally. I think she just figures/believes/hopes that in time alone she'll find herself more willing to engage in physical contact. That all we need is more time for continued relationship and trust rebuilding, and the physical stuff will come with it. I'm just not so confident that that will be the case.


Oh, I definitely meant non-sexual touching as well. Super, super important - my marriage was also missing that.

I have to say, I think you were perfectly reasonable to say no to another child while you were in a sexless marriage. If I was a guy, that would make me feel like my wife just viewed me as a sperm donor, and that's pretty demeaning.

Is she physical with anyone else? I mean, does she hug your daughter? Does she hug her female friends and her family members? What I'm asking is, is her physical distancing limited to just you? If she's physical with other people and just not with you, that would strike me as a little fishy.

Either way, I understand that money is tight, but she really needs some counseling. Some counseling centers have pre-license therapists (who are fully trained, and are doing their "residency" hours so they can test for their license), and this can be MUCH more affordable than a licensed therapist.

When my STBXH and I started counseling, on of the first things she said to my STBXH was, "FeministInPink needs physical touch to feel loved and appreciated, and so you need to put more effort into doing that for her. I'm not talking about sex - I mean hold her hand, touch her arm when you're listening to her, rub her back if she's upset, etc." (Of course, he didn't do any of what she told him to do, and that's why he's my STBXH.)

What I'm trying to say is that YOU are the one that needs touch. Does she know that? It's not so much about you initiating touch and her getting more comfortable with your touch; she needs to be touching YOU. (You, on the other hand, should be focusing on showing love in her language, which I think you might have already mentioned?) She needs to understand that you need non-sexual touch, too. And if she understands that she has control over when and how she touches you -- that you're not just going to come up and grab her and hug her at any given moment -- that might help relieve some of her anxiety, and as she grows more comfortable with her touching you, she may become more receptive to you showing her physical affection as well.

It seems to me that with this OM that she felt very deceived by him, which in turn made her feel a total loss of control over that situation. I think she needs to regain some control to feel more comfortable.

I'm not a shrink or anything, but from your update, this is what it looks like from my vantage point


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## WorkingOnMe

You must realize she's not there to be your wife don't you? I mean really, you don't know she's using you to get her act together? After all this time you haven't figured it out?


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## BrockLanders

Do you think you should just make a move on her one day? I don't think waiting on her to jump on you is a reasonable expectation nor do I think an intellectual conversation regarding sex will yield much either. Why not just pursue her organically like you would any other woman?


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## Iver

_...frustrates me to think that she can't just suck it up and hold my hand on a walk for example._

This is not good. 

And I do think it's admirable that you are trying to rebuild your marriage and maybe as long as the environment you have created is positive for your daughter, then perhaps you should ride out 2014.

But what you are describing, while it could change for the better, tells me there's a long way to go before she's ready to be a real wife to you.

Is your home owned by you? How would things go if she initiates a divorce after she graduates from nursing school?

If you haven't done so yet I'd consult with a family law attorney and discuss how your new living conditions - her living with you now - would impact a divorce e.g. custody issues/alimony/child support. All that good stuff...


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## cdbaker

*Feminist:* Yes she can be physical with her family, in that her mom will seek her out for a hug before she leaves, and she loves hugging her nieces and our daughter, etc. But I can see how this would be totally different, in that they have never hurt or betrayed her before, and there is absolutely ZERO sexual "threat" involved.

Where as with me, not only have I personally hurt/betrayed her in the past, but I am also another man with whom she entrusted her heart that betrayed her. And while I have assured her that I understand that anything sexual is 100% off the table and I have thus far kept my promise, she understands that there is always a sexual element involved when it involves a man who is sexually attracted to her. I'm sure every woman has experienced scenarios where they find themselves induced into a hug with someone who they do not want to send any wrong messages to. Maybe it's an ex-boyfriend/husband, a creepy uncle, whoever, so they are hesitant in the hug and anxious for it to be over quick. She doesn't have to deal with or experience any of that with her family, so I don't think it's relevant.

I'm also pretty sure she is aware now of the situation. Just to be sure, yesterday afternoon is when she and I had a pretty long talk where I tried again to stress just how important to me it is, and specifically to clarify that I am only particularly referring to non-sexual touches at this time. I explained that a lot of the kinds of touching I am referring to could totally seem silly to a lot of people, that such things aren't important to most people anyway, and certainly not AS important to someone who is in a normal healthy sexual relationship. But given our situation, and lack of a sexual connection, it is that much more important to me. I asked her to just please understand that physical touch is extremely necessary in order for me to feel love and (more importantly) respect, especially when there is zero sexual activity. I explained that it is very very hard for me to stay motivated and happy without it, and asked her to think of the things that I do that make her feel loved and understand that physical touch is every bit as important to me as those things are to her.

That extended conversation took place yesterday, and she seemed to accept it and said she would try to more actively look for opportunities for touching of some kind. She just asked me to be patient with her, which I can understand. We'll see what happens.

*Workingonme:* Certainly it has occurred to me in the past that she could just be using me to get herself through the last semester of school and then plan to move on shortly after graduation. However, I believe firmly that this isn't the case. She was doing just fine by herself for one. She got rid of her apartment and dumped most of the furniture she had acquired in the three years we were apart. She has emptied her savings account on things for our home that she couldn't exactly take with her (repainting rooms, replacing living room floor and trim, etc.) and because she figured she doesn't need it anymore. She has put a tremendous amount of effort into our home, and has been very public to all of our friends and family about our reconciling. I just can't see why she would need to use me, go through all that effort, go through the public embarrassment of another break-up, etc. if she just wants to use me.

Admittedly, if she had wanted to come home and reconcile shortly after she had left back in 2010, I might have been more concerned. Back then her "act" was a mess, she was struggling, had very little family and friend support, etc. It would have made sense for her to use me to achieve her goals then. Now however, she has really sacrificed to come back home and has made it very difficult to leave and start over again if she were to reach that point. So no, I don't think she is using me.

*BrockLanders:* I actually sort of tried something like that over the weekend. Got the idea from a book to just try to pick a good time and go in for a real, deep kiss while pulling her close. Again I didn't want to make it sexual, as that would probably scare her at this point given her past. The idea indicated that if she turns her head, to go ahead and try to turn it back for the kiss to test whether she is really truly adamantly against it, or is just playing hard to get and wants you to push her boundaries a tiny bit.

It didn't end in disaster, but she firmly turned her head and sort of pushed away. I laughed it off and we both walked away, but it was very disappointing. Yesterday during our talk, she brought up that attempt as being very offensive and pushy to her. I apologized for it, noting that I wasn't trying to make her feel that way, but also explained why I had done so and she seemed to be understanding of it. Maybe it is something I will try again someday as I know there is merit to the concept, but just not for a while. Also, I can't really just pursue her organically like any other woman, because unlike any other woman, she and I have lots of negative history between us.

*Iver:* Yep, it's a great environment for our daughter. We're both good parents I think. And yes, I definitely agree that it does appear that it could be a long time before she is able to be a "real wife" to me. At the same time, it's not like I don't share in the responsibility for that being the case. I do love her, I do believe that she intends to be a "real wife" someday, I just have to have a bit of faith that it will actually happen.

We do own the home (both of us, together). I don't know if things would change any regarding her filing for divorce after she graduates nursing school vs... well you didn't suggest an alternative. The reality is that she is back home now, fully integrated, and I can't really go back to the way it was before. I do know that the way things were lined up back in early 2011 when the final divorce hearing was days away, I was set up to get the house (in fact she would have to pay me half of the difference between what the home was then worth and what our loan was, adding up to about $5,000), keep my retirement accounts, split our outstanding debts equally and I would get 100% residential custody and 50% legal custody. About as good of a divorce as a Father can get in the midwest. But that is the past, I took the risk of dropping it and I don't have any regrets. Now I think if it were to go to divorce, everything would be more or less equal or maybe slightly in favor of her for being a woman.


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## Iver

Well, I think you are showing a lot of courage to step up on this and I hope it works out.

Good Luck.


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## FeministInPink

WorkingOnMe said:


> You must realize she's not there to be your wife don't you? I mean really, you don't know she's using you to get her act together? After all this time you haven't figured it out?


This is a definite possibility and should be considered. CD, I would hate to see her break your heart all over again because she got your hopes up.


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## cdbaker

Feminist: Yep, I replied to WorkingOnMe's comment in my last reply above. Early on I knew I should keep an eye out for that. I knew I needed to see her truly commit, not just seeking support from me while withholding everything else in reserve. By committing her full savings account, dramatically scaling back her work hours (giving up her full time hours for very sparse part time hours), getting rid of not just her apartment but the vast majority of her furniture, the effort and money she put into improving our home, the way she has publicly made clear to everyone that we are back together, not to mention assuring our daughter of that as well, and more, all tells me that she is committed. If she didn't want to commit and just wanted to use me, I would have thought she would at least keep her savings account full, store all of her furniture, be hesitant to publicly acknowledge our full reconciliation, and not make assurances to our daughter. I'd see her holding back, and I don't think she is holding anything back. The only issue I've seen of concern is our physical relations, but I know that has long been an issue for her and our last MC made clear to me that that part would be an issue we'd have to work on for a while before we got it to where we want it to be. So really, all of my expectations there have been met.


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## PlatinumGirl

WOW!!! I commend you cdbaker for being a strong and understanding person. Wish there's a lot of human beings like you. Who sees their own faults and not just their partners. Who has the courage to face it and correct it. Amiable.


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## Decorum

cdbaker,

Hey.

I followed your profile to this thread, I'm in awe of what you are doing. I really respect it.

I think you have beatin the odds up to this point.

Many men would not try.

Do you think its the fact that you have owned your part in the marriage problems that has helped you to stay open to reconcilation?

I want to offer something that happened in my marriage in hopes that it might be helpful.

It is easier to give advice when a new BS is trying to sort out the mess he has discovered, but these things are so much more complicated, at least to me.

My wife and I had a "lost decade", we were raising 4 teenagers as we tried to deal with the progression of her MS, and the difficulty of the toxiccisity of our personalities together. (I was way too passive, and she way to demanding), it seemed like a perfect strom.

It was really after I came to TAM that I realized what needed to happen, our situation was different then yours, but it seems like there may be an intersection here.

I had failed to pay proper attention to my wife, so I made the correction (Combined with stepping up in leadership appropriately.), one day as we sat and faced each other talking I stroked her hair behind her ear, I had not done it in years, it was unconscious on my part (I just liked her, the sympathy had returned) until I realized it. She responded to that talk (ok we had sex, but that was not my goal), I think without realizing why (attention).

We had been connecting up to that point again, but prior to that talk I had to go away, for business, she actually missed me, and when I returned (based on that) she said "I guess I really do love you" (because she missed me).

Woman are so different then men, she wanted to feel it not just commit to it.

At the time I was pretty oblivious to what was happening.

I am not saying,
1. Connect
2. Go away so she can miss you
3. Stroke her hair behimg her ears 

I'm just hoping the gestalt from this might be helpful.

Cd I really wish you well,
Take care!


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## ConanHub

cdbaker said:


> Feminist: Yep, I replied to WorkingOnMe's comment in my last reply above. Early on I knew I should keep an eye out for that. I knew I needed to see her truly commit, not just seeking support from me while withholding everything else in reserve. By committing her full savings account, dramatically scaling back her work hours (giving up her full time hours for very sparse part time hours), getting rid of not just her apartment but the vast majority of her furniture, the effort and money she put into improving our home, the way she has publicly made clear to everyone that we are back together, not to mention assuring our daughter of that as well, and more, all tells me that she is committed. If she didn't want to commit and just wanted to use me, I would have thought she would at least keep her savings account full, store all of her furniture, be hesitant to publicly acknowledge our full reconciliation, and not make assurances to our daughter. I'd see her holding back, and I don't think she is holding anything back. The only issue I've seen of concern is our physical relations, but I know that has long been an issue for her and our last MC made clear to me that that part would be an issue we'd have to work on for a while before we got it to where we want it to be. So really, all of my expectations there have been met.


Your wife needs some intensive IC. You could benefit as well. Then if after your heads are straight, you still want to be married, you could do MC. Your marriage was a failure before and I cannot see how having the ability to get it on with other men including one old enough to be her father and a child molester to boot, is working on her issues. So while she was banging other guys, something she apparently reserves for any creep besides her husband, she improves her education and finances so that fixes things in your mind? She is simply a better equipped dysfunctional person! She would not be back if not for the fantastic decision to start sleeping with an old man who turned out to be a monster. You might have been a crappy husband but she was also a crappy wife. You need to quit trying to own and fix this broken person. She doesn't even touch you but OM... NO PROBLEM! Your love for her is evident, I am in no way convinced she loves you, but if you expect to have a chance, she needs professional help, and she needs to want help. It can be done, you can save your marriage, but not the way your doing it and it has to take more than just your commitment. She really needs to start some heavy lifting! IC. I hope the best for you and your family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jntrs

no matter what, i keep my guard up if i were you, think ahead and picture yourself dealing with the same thing all over again, if she does it again she will think you will take her back again.

but props to you for doing it

best of luck buddy


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## cdbaker

*PlatinumGirl:* Thank you for your kind words, but as they say, "Knowing is [only] half the battle!" I still have a lot of doing left to do.

*Decorum:* Thank you as well, but really I'm no saint here, in fact I'm confident I'm more responsible for my messy marriage than my wife is.

To answer your first question, without a doubt it is the fact that I was able to own my part of the marriage problems that enabled me (and my wife for that matter) to remain open to reconciliation. If you read my story, remember I was viewed as a wonderful husband and father, and treated as if I was a saint after my wife's affair became public. Given that I already had an ego problem, it would have been easy for me to revel in those moments believe everything those outside the marriage were thinking. But I loved my wife, and the reality was that I was losing her, so my choice was that I could be the "saintly husband" whose wife is going to divorce him, or I could invest myself into figuring out what had torn my marriage apart. I started listening to my wife, sought counseling, and began reading a lot of books. And truthfully, if I wasn't at least 50% responsible for the problems or I never figured that out, then that just makes her a repeat offender cheating wife, and I would not want her back.

I think that's what a lot of this comes down to. I fully believe that my behavior and my treatment of my wife and marriage is what led her to being so susceptible to another man's seduction. No doubt, she bears responsibility for the choices she made and while I have certainly forgiven her, I can't forget that. So therefore I also believe that if it hadn't been for my own issues that left her feeling unloved and unvalued for years, she never would have even considered cheating. Remembering back to who she was back when she still trusted me fully, she was an absolutely amazing friend, lover and wife, and I believe she can be that again, and she's stated plainly that she wants to be that again, just as she wants me to be that to her as well. So I believe we are worth another chance. If it turns out that I am wrong about her, then that could certainly change things, but for now I am taking her at her word.

I think I am following your story here. Does MS mean something other than the disease? That's awesome that you both reconnected that way after so long. I'm sure you wish it could have happened sooner!

I think it's really really tough for people to just stop and question themselves. To question whether what they believe to be true is really true, or if there are other ways to see and interpret the same thing, whether you are "right" or not.


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## lordmayhem

cdbaker said:


> So two weeks ago, my wife of ten years essentially moved back home to the house I've continued to maintain with our 9-year old daughter. I say "essentially" only because we'll be moving her stuff back home over the next month or two before her apartment lease ends in August. Our separation began around April of 2010, briefly cohabited again in June 2010, before she again left for a new "other man" in July 2010.
> 
> Our story is incredibly long and involved (as are many others stories here I imagine), so I'll spare the details here. Married young and became parents young, she grew up without a father (and all the issues that can come along with that), a lot of awful immaturity on both sides, multiple repeated affairs, several marriage counselors giving up on us, porn addiction, eventually a bit of alcohol/drug issues, depression, etc. In the last year, things seem to improve substantially when the "other man" my wife was seduced by was arrested and sentenced to a 3-year prison term for sexual exploitation of a minor under 13y/o. He was (unsurprisingly) an incredibly manipulative individual twice her age who essentially "captured" my wife and withdrew her from her friends, family (including our daughter), etc. and it wasn't until several months after he had been gone that she finally woke up to what had happened. Really I think it was the fact that I knew that she was under his spell and thus wasn't "herself", that enabled me to endure all this time without pulling the trigger on divorce.
> 
> I am writing this post because I think I have an incredible story to tell here and I hope to someday be able to use it to help others. So to that end, I first hope that others will see this title and find hope that even the most hopeless looking situations are not necessarily hopeless at all. I've read stories of couples being separated for a year or so, or even divorcing and then reconnected years later with another marriage in between, but I haven't yet seen any stories of couples surviving a 3+ year separation. Granted, we were extremely close to divorce on multiple occasions, with lawyers hired and court dates set (and then delayed, and delayed, and delayed), new lawers hired, lots of dating in between, etc. As any divorced person will tell you, you've never seen the worst of someone until they realize that their impending divorce from you will not go the way they hoped. It's a miserable and financially ruinous thing to go through, and should be avoided at absolutely, without question, all costs.
> 
> Certainly we're not exactly out of the woods, her being home only two weeks now. We started this most recent road to recovery back in October last year and little by little we have been reconnecting stronger every week. I let her move into the bedroom while I sleep on the couch just down the hall in order to let her get herself accustomed slowly. There are still some very large issues that we'll have to move past as well, such as:
> 
> 1. Relationship: We aren't being physical AT ALL. No sex, no kissing, quick friendly hugs are about the limit for the moment.
> 2. While we have processed through the things that brought our marriage down to begin with, and have corrected most of them, we have not discussed at length much that has transpired during our separation. I imagine there are a lot of questions we both have, like, "how many people have you slept with?" or "When did this or that affair start?" or "What do you think has changed about yourself or what have you discovered in the last three years?", etc.
> 3. Combining income/expenses again.
> 4. Trust Rebuilding. This will naturally be a long-term step for both of us.
> 5. Communication. Another long term step, but it's really lacking right now as we both feel like we're walking on eggshells I think, or at least I do. Not out of fear that I'll anger her, but I don't want to bring up things that will make her uncomfortable too quickly or assume the wrong thing.
> 6. Sex. Physicality in general. Did I mention that one? Yeah I probably did.
> 
> *So if anyone has any advice for me on good ways to proceed from here, it would be most welcomed!*


*FALSE R.*

She moves back in and *you* get the couch? Seriously? She's only back temporarily until the next OM, while you are the back up plan. True Remorse is her busting her ass to win back your love. On the other hand, you waited out the affair.


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## cdbaker

*ConanHub:* First, a couple of clarifications:

1. The OM had never been accused of or charged with anything sexual involving a minor to our knowledge, prior to him luring my wife into his world. His record reflected nothing of the sort. He was absolutely "creepy" according to most who knew him, and had a history of pursuing younger women, but there was nothing to directly indicate he was interested in anyone under 18 years old, let alone 13.
2. Her improving her finances and education "fixes" nothing in my mind, and is unrelated. If you are referring to what I said in the quote to Feminist in your post, the only thing I was saying in reference to finances and such is that among the things she has done to show her commitment, she has substantially damaged her capability to be quickly independent again. She didn't have to spend all of her independent saving account on our home that she would not want in a divorce. She did not have to throw/give away ALL of her furniture that she had acquired. She did not have to give up her lucrative full time position. She did not have to give up her apartment with whom she had an ideal roommate situation. Of course if she wanted to someday she could still move out and start all over again, but doing so would be *substantially* harder now because of the steps she has taken. To me, that is just one more indicator that she has no intentions of giving up on the marriage again.
3. Her hooking up with the "Old Man" didn't have anything to do with leading her to come back home to reconcile. He in fact is the main reason she didn't come back sooner.
4. We were both crappy spouses by the time things fell apart. We both have acknowledged that, and intend to correct it.
5. We might need further IC, I can admit that. I think she just wants some time first to try to process on her own first. If after a while there hasn't been much progress, then I think we'll evaluate that option.

*Jntrs:* Totally. I still feel confident that we won't find ourselves in this mess again, but I certainly keep my eyes and ears open for it to a degree. I am choosing to trust her, as it relates to any chance that she might cheat again. I'm choosing to trust her because I think it is necessary for healing. Are there days every once in a while (really not that often, I assure you) when I worry? Where something triggers me? Sure. But the way I see it, if she is going to cheat, then that is the end anyway. I can doom our R by being paranoid and distrustful, or I can give it the best effort and there is always a chance that I'll get burned later. The reality is however, that you absolutely cannot hope to repair a relationship without a willingness to be vulnerable.

Plus, she was a totally different person back when she was in the affairs. So even if she could hide the direct evidence, I'd still know that she was up to something very wrong pretty darn quickly I think.


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## cdbaker

*LordMayhem:* I know this thread has gotten a little long now, but if you'd read further, you'd see that the couch situation was a temporary situation. I've been sleeping in bed with my wife for several weeks now, and she even had the couch thrown out as a symbol to say "we don't need it anymore". Even in the beginning she did not insist on me sleeping on the couch, because yeah that would be pretty awful for her to move back in and immediately try to make me move out of our bedroom and onto the couch. 

No. After about 7 or 8 months of working on the relationship while separated, we decided it would be a good time for her to move back in, tentatively at first. The idea was that if we realized it was too early, she still had her apartment that she could go back to for another couple of months until we ironed out what was missing. We knew that sleeping together wouldn't be a good idea immediately, as it would just be awkward and she certainly still had some trust issues with that, so SHE offered to sleep on the couch. I'm a man however, and it felt incredibly wrong to me for my wife to sleep on the couch while i enjoyed the comfortable king-size bed. (I strongly believe that men should be the first to sacrifice for their family, and should never ask their family to sacrifice anything that he has not already given up.) So I really insisted on taking the couch.

For what it's worth, that couch was really damn comfortable. Not even kidding, that couch, which was probably 30 years old, stains all over it, shredded to hell by our cat, was more comfortable than our bed, and we have a pretty nice bed. (for being 8 or so years old anyway) Plus my TV and xbox were in that room, so yeah, that was fun. Hahaha. So aside from my wanting to sleep next to my wife of course, I really didn't mind the arrangement at all.


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## ConanHub

cdbaker said:


> *ConanHub:* First, a couple of clarifications:
> 
> 1. The OM had never been accused of or charged with anything sexual involving a minor to our knowledge, prior to him luring my wife into his world. His record reflected nothing of the sort. He was absolutely "creepy" according to most who knew him, and had a history of pursuing younger women, but there was nothing to directly indicate he was interested in anyone under 18 years old, let alone 13.
> 2. Her improving her finances and education "fixes" nothing in my mind, and is unrelated. If you are referring to what I said in the quote to Feminist in your post, the only thing I was saying in reference to finances and such is that among the things she has done to show her commitment, she has substantially damaged her capability to be quickly independent again. She didn't have to spend all of her independent saving account on our home that she would not want in a divorce. She did not have to throw/give away ALL of her furniture that she had acquired. She did not have to give up her lucrative full time position. She did not have to give up her apartment with whom she had an ideal roommate situation. Of course if she wanted to someday she could still move out and start all over again, but doing so would be *substantially* harder now because of the steps she has taken. To me, that is just one more indicator that she has no intentions of giving up on the marriage again.
> 3. Her hooking up with the "Old Man" didn't have anything to do with leading her to come back home to reconcile. He in fact is the main reason she didn't come back sooner.
> 4. We were both crappy spouses by the time things fell apart. We both have acknowledged that, and intend to correct it.
> 5. We might need further IC, I can admit that. I think she just wants some time first to try to process on her own first. If after a while there hasn't been much progress, then I think we'll evaluate that option.
> 
> *Jntrs:* Totally. I still feel confident that we won't find ourselves in this mess again, but I certainly keep my eyes and ears open for it to a degree. I am choosing to trust her, as it relates to any chance that she might cheat again. I'm choosing to trust her because I think it is necessary for healing. Are there days every once in a while (really not that often, I assure you) when I worry? Where something triggers me? Sure. But the way I see it, if she is going to cheat, then that is the end anyway. I can doom our R by being paranoid and distrustful, or I can give it the best effort and there is always a chance that I'll get burned later. The reality is however, that you absolutely cannot hope to repair a relationship without a willingness to be vulnerable.
> 
> Plus, she was a totally different person back when she was in the affairs. So even if she could hide the direct evidence, I'd still know that she was up to something very wrong pretty darn quickly I think.


Hey CD. What I meant a about the creepy old man was that she would have continued with him and not returned to you had he not been caught. Also, her decision making ability seems to have been horribly impaired to go full intimate with a creepy old man in the first place. Charged or not, predators display some pretty disturbed behavior and everyone knew this Guy was weird but your wife went full on intimate relationship with him anyway. This decision shows seriously flawed reasoning and she would still be with him had he not been caught. You even had to intervene harshly to prevent your wife from placing your daughter in this monster's hands! Your wife has shown a dangerous lack of clear thinking and it could have cost your daughter her innocence. This primarily, is why, IMHO, your wife needs serous IC to correct a fatal thought process that could so easily harm her and her family! Kudos to you for having the presence of mind and character to prevent damage to your daughter. I do have sympathy for your wife. I am sure she is horrified at who she willingly allowed to touch her. I know she needs help to work out what went wrong in her reasoning and IC could probably clear up some intimacy issues between you and her as well. I really hope your family as a whole will fully heal and be healthy. Take care cd.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe

Full on intimate with him, and yet 'trust issues' with CD. Somehow I smell a rat.


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## Jntrs

cdbaker said:


> *Jntrs:* Totally. I still feel confident that we won't find ourselves in this mess again, but I certainly keep my eyes and ears open for it to a degree. I am choosing to trust her, as it relates to any chance that she might cheat again. I'm choosing to trust her because I think it is necessary for healing. Are there days every once in a while (really not that often, I assure you) when I worry? Where something triggers me? Sure. But the way I see it, if she is going to cheat, then that is the end anyway. I can doom our R by being paranoid and distrustful, or I can give it the best effort and there is always a chance that I'll get burned later. The reality is however, that you absolutely cannot hope to repair a relationship without a willingness to be vulnerable.
> 
> Plus, she was a totally different person back when she was in the affairs. So even if she could hide the direct evidence, I'd still know that she was up to something very wrong pretty darn quickly I think.


my ex never show any remorse for what she did, mind you i was willing to work it out no matter what, she blamed me for her actions, which doesn't make any sense at all, never really apologized for her mistakes and was expecting me to make the effort to make things work, why would i put %100 when she wasn't willing, the thing that kills me its that i lost my family and its hard to raise my kid this way (kids make you put up with crap like this cus you love them dearly) just last week i asked her to think about it and reconsidered working things out, i told her we would start from scratch and all that, then i got tired and asked her to tell me if it was over, it took her 1/2 hour to answer that, she wont file (don't know her reasons for that yet) yet after all i still love her, but i have to focus that the person i married is dead and shes somebody i don't know anymore

"have you ever looked into the eyes of someone you loved and realized the person you know its gone?"

my point, if you doing it all and she shows no remorse whatsoever then you know shes just coming back for the wrong reasons.

once again i admired what you've done so far, not every guy out there can do it, best of luck


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## JDL8787

My wife and I recently started getting back on track after about a year and a half of separation. We aren't doing anything physical either aside from hugging and holding hands. Neither one of us want her to move in until shes sorted herself out and is sure she can be the best wife to me and best mother to the kids. I had my year to fix my problems and learn introspection and all that, she spent hers in a co-dependant fog, when she came out of it, we started talking again. During that period we stayed on a strictly KID ONLY interaction plan, and never wavered from it. When I started to see glimpses of the good parts of her that drew me in initially, thats when we both started talking about it. My point is... Even though we are on a reconciliation path, We both agreed no moving in until we are ready to go to being a 100% couple like we should be, we can both be hypersensitive to each others actions when it comes to turning down a kiss or not answering an i love you with one back. So, to avoid anyone getting the wrong idea or a miscommunication, thats how we handle it. Even though I don't think the living together benefits YOUR mental state (only because of rejections), It probably helps to re acclimate her into the marital home/your life, so... Your patience is admirable for sure.

Start dating your wife if you can though. Gotta start from the bottom all over again and work your way up, this is a mostly new relationship after-all.


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## Decorum

cdbaker said:


> *
> 
> Given that I already had an ego problem, it would have been easy for me to revel in those moments believe everything those outside the marriage were thinking.
> The good news here is that once you let that genie out of the bottle you can throw away the bottle.
> 
> 
> I think I am following your story here. Does MS mean something other than the disease? MS = Multiple Sclerosis)
> 
> 
> That's awesome that you both reconnected that way after so long. I'm sure you wish it could have happened sooner!
> 
> I thought she was the problem for the longest time, and she was a big part of it, TBH it became an issue in our church, my family, and our kids, but It was a perfect storm of our personality/character weaknesses, and life circumstances.
> 
> In the end I had to acknowledge the part my passive aggressive co-dependent behavior played in it ( a small part )
> 
> So it is a work in progress, I don't blame her but I don't let her off the hook either, and we spend time together to reconnect.
> 
> I am working in another state (past 3 years), I go home on my days off, (I get a rotation of 5 days off and 2 days off in 14 days) our youngest graduated HS and is going to the university in the city where I work (UofL). When we sell the house in Indiana my wife will move here with me .
> 
> Its been a long haul. I wish I would have seen it sooner and acted on it.
> 
> Sorry if I have mixed in to much background.
> 
> I think it's really really tough for people to just stop and question themselves. To question whether what they believe to be true is really true, or if there are other ways to see and interpret the same thing, whether you are "right" or not.
> 
> If the things we face bring some objective introspection then at least we are the better for it.
> 
> "The unexamined life is not worth living"
> 
> Though I could understand how the same could be said for a life damaged by infidelity
> 
> CD I wish you well,
> I am not inclined to take a negative view of your efforts,
> it is different for a woman,
> if you want to draw the hummingbird in you have to put out the right nectar.
> 
> Take care!
> *


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## cdbaker

*ConanHub:* Yep, you certainly have a fair point in that she was taken in by the old creepy guy. There are circumstances that lighten the burden for her a little bit, but still, she didn't see what most others were able to see. The first circumstance is probably that she met him as a co-worker, and she was so anxious to get out of the marriage, that he was able to seduce her very quickly before she really knew him at all. I'd guess he got her phone number after only one or two shifts working together, began texting, then took it sexual quickly. So she didn't get to know him or see how others viewed him until she was already "with him". Second, since she missed the opportunity to properly evaluate him as others did, he then had the opportunity to fully manipulate and control her perception of him from "inside his circle" of sorts. He had an explanation for everything.

Nonetheless, yeah it is concerning that even during their long period of time together she didn't see enough to leave. She acknowledges that she was fooled in the beginning, but after around 7 or so months with him she began to realize that he was mostly full of ****, which actually matches with the timeframe in which she told me she wanted to call off the divorce proceedings. 

*WorkingOnMe:* I'll mention it again... with me, she has a long history of emotional/sexual betrayal. It makes sense to me that coming to trust me intimately might be difficult. For the OM, he was a blank slate to her. She had no reason not to be uncomfortable/distrusting of him (as far as she knew) at the beginning.

*JDL:* Yeah there seem to be a few similarities. We started the reconciliation process while apart for about seven or eight months, then she moved in because her apartment lease was expiring soon. Sure she could have extended it, but that's another $5K and we are broke enough as it is so that was probably one of the main issues. Certainly it hasn't been easy, but I also think that things have been improving at a faster rate than they were when we were apart.


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## firebelly1

I've been following your thread and admiring your introspection. My H and I are considering reconciliation after a year and a half of separation (and both of us being with other people.) I would not be considering it if my H had not shown signs of introspection. We have both committed to counselling and not dating other people while we're doing it. 

I'm not sure what to think about your wife's discomfort with touch. I think it is a clear sign that she isn't fully invested in a future with you yet. I can see that talk about having a baby with someone you aren't sure you want a future with might be a libido-killer and feeling pressured to touch when you don't naturally feel like it could also be a point of resistance. But I'm having a hard time relating. I have always been the high desire one in my relationship and when my husband and I were separated I wanted to have sex with him more than ever. My love languages, however, are the same as your wife's - words of affirmation and quality time. 

What would make her feel invested? I don't know what kinds of conversations you've had so far, but the more my H has volunteered his realizations about how he hurt me and talked to me about the realizations about himself and how they affected me, the closer I felt to him. I can't imagine that you haven't had those conversations with her, but if I were her, the more I would hear you articulate what you did wrong and what you intend to do differently (and show the differences) the more I would trust and be willing to invest.


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## Juliets1

cdbaker;3925570
I think it is actually pretty common for a recently separated spouse to feel a sudden sense of euphoria and freedom when the daily pressures/anger/unhappiness of the troubled marriage is temporarily set aside said:


> This! Exactly what you said. When I asked my husband for a separation, (I said we needed a break before we hated each other), I figured he would take the new freedom and run. Which he did. He had total freedom, to do what he wanted, be with who he wanted, no responsibility, no kids or wife to make him accountable, etc. I gave up seeing him run (We continued to be together some for the first month and a half after he moved out) as I felt there was nothing left to hold onto to. Now hes back in our lives (not moved back in) and wants to work things out and claims he will wait and do whatever it takes to prove this is what he wants. It didn't really make sense to me until reading your posts! Its interesting to hear the other side, instead of just trying to make the connections and understand what you assume it all to be.


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## cdbaker

firebelly1 said:


> I've been following your thread and admiring your introspection. My H and I are considering reconciliation after a year and a half of separation (and both of us being with other people.) I would not be considering it if my H had not shown signs of introspection. We have both committed to counselling and not dating other people while we're doing it.
> 
> I'm not sure what to think about your wife's discomfort with touch. I think it is a clear sign that she isn't fully invested in a future with you yet. I can see that talk about having a baby with someone you aren't sure you want a future with might be a libido-killer and feeling pressured to touch when you don't naturally feel like it could also be a point of resistance. But I'm having a hard time relating. I have always been the high desire one in my relationship and when my husband and I were separated I wanted to have sex with him more than ever. My love languages, however, are the same as your wife's - words of affirmation and quality time.
> 
> What would make her feel invested? I don't know what kinds of conversations you've had so far, but the more my H has volunteered his realizations about how he hurt me and talked to me about the realizations about himself and how they affected me, the closer I felt to him. I can't imagine that you haven't had those conversations with her, but if I were her, the more I would hear you articulate what you did wrong and what you intend to do differently (and show the differences) the more I would trust and be willing to invest.


I hope everything works out for you both. I have been pondering something a lot lately that you sort of touched on at the end of your message. I have spent a great deal of time trying to explain little things that I have noticed about myself in the past that used to make her uncomfortable/hurt her. Often times, in the middle of a day or mid-conversation even, I'll pause and point out to her a moment of reflection, or maybe something will happen and before my natural response kicks in (whatever that might be) I'll suddenly notice that it is different than the response I used to have or the opposite, that the response I was about to employ was wrong and that I just caught it in that moment. I like to let her know when these sorts of moments happen because I figure it would make her feel good to know, just as you indicate it does for you.

However, usually my doing so doesn't elicit much of a response from her at all. Maybe a nod, maybe a brief "thank-you" without eye contact, etc.

But what I have been debating is that I have done that sort of thing for a long time. I have done a LOT of very beta male things for her for a long time now. She knows I'll serve her hand and foot if she asks, and sometimes if she doesn't. I read the "Married Man's Sex Life Primer" and I can see that I really need to cut down on those sorts of behaviors and switch to an Alpha role to a degree. 

I think the biggest problem that I have right now is that she knows that I have committed to and enacted virtually every change that she has asked for. I think if you or anyone were to ask her if there was anything she would have to complain about regarding me, the only thing she might say is that she probably feels "nagged" by me about working on the marriage, pushing her to make an effort that is. She is sort of right, about every two weeks I break down and ask her where we stand as a couple, if she is making any efforts and what those are, etc. I go to sleep at night, alone, and drive myself crazy with thoughts of why she can't do some of the simplest things.

But the problem is that the case she has made is that she isn't yet emotionally ready to fully be a wife to me yet. She says she still feels emotionally hurt from the past, is learning to trust me, and simply doesn't yet feel comfortable enough with me to be physical in ANY WAY. (Yeah, she still hasn't kissed me since June 2010 and even hugs are received with loud "sigh's" of reservation) I guess I get that, in the sense that I know I'm a guy and I can't exactly dismiss her feelings because I can't relate to her at that level, so I can trust her or I can call her a liar, but the later won't get me anywhere. The further problem is that before the marriage went downhill, she was just as uncomfortable with virtually anything physical, especially sex.

So is she telling me the truth about just needing more time, or is she just enjoying what might be a "perfect marriage" in her book? One that is sexless, emotionless, with no touching or deep conversation, etc. She says the efforts she makes is by slowly entrusting me more, which I suppose she is doing at a snails pace, but such "effort" is also incredibly difficult to gauge, because it isn't exactly every day that she has to prove some new level of trust.

So I'm kind of stuck. In a small sense, things ARE getting better every week. In very small ways, they absolutely are, I can't deny that. The trouble is none of those ways involve her showing any form of loving signs as far as I can tell, expressing any love languages, let alone my primary one or two languages. So it's just really tough to endure right now.


----------



## cdbaker

Juliets1 said:


> This! Exactly what you said. When I asked my husband for a separation, (I said we needed a break before we hated each other), I figured he would take the new freedom and run. Which he did. He had total freedom, to do what he wanted, be with who he wanted, no responsibility, no kids or wife to make him accountable, etc. I gave up seeing him run (We continued to be together some for the first month and a half after he moved out) as I felt there was nothing left to hold onto to. Now hes back in our lives (not moved back in) and wants to work things out and claims he will wait and do whatever it takes to prove this is what he wants. It didn't really make sense to me until reading your posts! Its interesting to hear the other side, instead of just trying to make the connections and understand what you assume it all to be.


Yep, that's really really common. I'm guessing that you and he didn't draw up a separation agreement before separating? (Or maybe that you did but he broke it?) Either way, it sounds like he went out and had his fun, realized that the fun is really short lived and after a while, decided that he missed you and didn't want to face the life situation that would happen if the divorce materialized, for himself or his kids. I hope he stays on that track and doesn't deviate!

P.S. If it is important to you that he stay faithful to you now while you are officially on a reconciliation path, you should know that he'll likely be very tempted. He probably has a lot of new phone numbers on his phone, new friends, and he'll be tempted to keep in touch with them until the very last minute. He may still be very devoted to you, but those nights can still get cold and lonely, so the temptation is still very much there I assure you. Just an fyi!


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## Oblivious2678

Cdbaker,
Stay strong. You have come this far. Unfortunately, we have to move at our wives' pace. When she is ready, you be ready.

Again, you two have come this far. Stick to your game plan. Trickling some alpha into yourself sounds like some great advice. I believe I will do the same.


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## nogutsnoglory

not even a single kiss by her means she has no intention of trying.
she wants everything from the marriage but the connection to you. She is using the past as an excuse, but you took her back after all and not even one kiss...
I think this is ridiculous and you are going to notice a pick up in this area from her just in time for her schedule to try for another kid, and at that time you will have been strung along for so long that you will take what ever morsel she gives you even if it means she is just trying to get pregnant. 
Seriously man, you have essentially been begging her for physical touch and she will not bring it upon herself to even try for you. You are nothing but a maid, babysitter, provider, and a roommate to her.
EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID YOU WOULD NOT WANT IF SHE CAME BACK.

How long are you going to live this way?
I think you let her know next time she mentions the having of another child that you are willing to try once you have had a few months of a healthy physical relationship with her. All of a sudden she will hear the clock on that few months does not start until she gets physical and since she wants a pregnancy to begin 1/2014 , and it is currently 10/2014, my guess you will get something physical from her almost immediately. She has a plan in place IMO and you are just the support system for that plan.
When she does a complete about face after you lay out the time frame, you need to be smart enough to realize you are being used.


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## cdbaker

Well, for starters remember that I myself told her up front, without her asking for it, that I would not seek out or expect anything remotely sexual from her for a long while. I don't think I was specific about how long, but I think the message I tried to convey subtly was the rest of 2013, longer if we are making good progress. My pressuring her for all things sexual was a MAJOR problem before our marriage crumbled back in 2010, and led to even worse problems. So I believe strongly that the best way to help her heal now is to take that off the table completely.

See, back then it got to the point where she was almost afraid to risk turning me on in some way that would bring on the pressure and make her feel bad for turning me down again. She would keep herself covered, sleep with the blankets firmly tucked under herself between us to avoid any potential touch, change clothes with the bedroom locked, etc. Just because she didn't want to be put in a position of having to feel bad about her lack of libido and/or lack of sexual interest in me. 

So I figured (and still believe, as mentioned above) that the best way to help her heal is to take that off the table. If she can trust that she can be open with me, change clothes in my presence, come to bed with me knowing there will be no pressure, etc., then I think that will help rebuild our relationship in a big way. From that starting point, I think a healthy sexual relationship could grow. Because again, you have to remember that in many ways prior to 2010, I was not her lover but her abuser. So I think it is unreasonable of anyone to suggest that just because she reached the point of being willing to make the commitment and move back in with me, that she should quickly be willing to sleep with me as well. In fact, I've had two different therapists tell me that it takes about the same amount of time as was spent in the bad relationship, to heal from the bad relationship, so I shouldn't expect any quick results.

Now if you or anyone else is simply trying to say that my wife isn't worth waiting that long for, that no marriage is, that life is too short to not be getting laid regularly, etc., then I can certainly understand that, but I'll disagree nonetheless.

I'm just expressing my... disappointment (?) that things aren't ramping up the way I had hoped they would. Meaning I figured within 60 days or so she'd be ok with light kisses at least or holding hands or something, maybe cuddling in bed at the 120 day mark, and progressing from there. As it stands now, we're still at awkward hugging, which bugs me.

Also, the "getting pregnant" thing has mostly been MY interest, not hers. I want more kids and I don't want to wait forever. In response to the last time I brought it up, she said she figured she'd be willing to start trying in January (Yep, about 90 days from now) but that was all that was said, and she last mentioned that about two months ago. So that could certainly change, and she isn't eager to get knocked up.


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## tdwal

cdbaker said:


> Well, for starters remember that I myself told her up front, without her asking for it, that I would not seek out or expect anything remotely sexual from her for a long while. I don't think I was specific about how long, but I think the message I tried to convey subtly was the rest of 2013, longer if we are making good progress. My pressuring her for all things sexual was a MAJOR problem before our marriage crumbled back in 2010, and led to even worse problems. So I believe strongly that the best way to help her heal now is to take that off the table completely.
> 
> See, back then it got to the point where she was almost afraid to risk turning me on in some way that would bring on the pressure and make her feel bad for turning me down again. She would keep herself covered, sleep with the blankets firmly tucked under herself between us to avoid any potential touch, change clothes with the bedroom locked, etc. Just because she didn't want to be put in a position of having to feel bad about her lack of libido and/or lack of sexual interest in me.
> 
> So I figured (and still believe, as mentioned above) that the best way to help her heal is to take that off the table. If she can trust that she can be open with me, change clothes in my presence, come to bed with me knowing there will be no pressure, etc., then I think that will help rebuild our relationship in a big way. From that starting point, I think a healthy sexual relationship could grow. Because again, you have to remember that in many ways prior to 2010, I was not her lover but her abuser. So I think it is unreasonable of anyone to suggest that just because she reached the point of being willing to make the commitment and move back in with me, that she should quickly be willing to sleep with me as well. In fact, I've had two different therapists tell me that it takes about the same amount of time as was spent in the bad relationship, to heal from the bad relationship, so I shouldn't expect any quick results.
> 
> Now if you or anyone else is simply trying to say that my wife isn't worth waiting that long for, that no marriage is, that life is too short to not be getting laid regularly, etc., then I can certainly understand that, but I'll disagree nonetheless.
> 
> I'm just expressing my... disappointment (?) that things aren't ramping up the way I had hoped they would. Meaning I figured within 60 days or so she'd be ok with light kisses at least or holding hands or something, maybe cuddling in bed at the 120 day mark, and progressing from there. As it stands now, we're still at awkward hugging, which bugs me.
> 
> Also, the "getting pregnant" thing has mostly been MY interest, not hers. I want more kids and I don't want to wait forever. In response to the last time I brought it up, she said she figured she'd be willing to start trying in January (Yep, about 90 days from now) but that was all that was said, and she last mentioned that about two months ago. So that could certainly change, and she isn't eager to get knocked up.


This expectation that you would have expected some affection because of all your doing is a covert contract. Did you read NMMNG?


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## firebelly1

cdbaker said:


> Well, for starters remember that I myself told her up front, without her asking for it, that I would not seek out or expect anything remotely sexual from her for a long while. I don't think I was specific about how long, but I think the message I tried to convey subtly was the rest of 2013, longer if we are making good progress.
> 
> Also, the "getting pregnant" thing has mostly been MY interest, not hers. I want more kids and I don't want to wait forever. In response to the last time I brought it up, she said she figured she'd be willing to start trying in January (Yep, about 90 days from now) but that was all that was said, and she last mentioned that about two months ago. So that could certainly change, and she isn't eager to get knocked up.


Sorry CD, I'm coming back to this post after a while so don't remember if you consider your wife LD in general or not (which I think would be an underlying problem that makes none of the other things really matter), but I feel like I'm getting some mixed messages from you. You told her that you don't expect anything "remotely" sexual from her for a while and "subtly" conveyed that "a while" could mean until the end of 2013, but are now upset that she isn't doing anything remotely sexual? If I were her, I would have heard "He said there's no pressure to do anything physical I don't feel naturally like doing until January 1, 2014, but now he's telling me (or subtly hinting) that he DOES want me to do things I don't naturally feel like doing before January 1, 2014." Resentment and distrust rise. 

And now that I know you're the one who wants the kid and not necessarily her, I think she may feel pressured to have sex for the sake of having a kid. More potential resentment around sex. That's a lot to take in when you're not even REALLY sure you want to be together as a couple. 

But don't get me wrong - I APPLAUD all the hard emotional work you are doing.


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## cdbaker

Firebelly: Yep I see what you mean, but I should clarify something that I think you misunderstand. I'm not upset that she isn't interested in doing anything remotely sexual, now or recently. I truly have no expectations of any sexual activity for the foreseeable future. The time when that might change seems to be sometime after she graduates from nursing school this December.

That relates to the whole "Get her preggo" thing. She herself has indicated to me that she does want to have another child with me. I have merely agreed, and when last I asked her if she had an idea of when she would like to try for that, she indicated after she graduates from nursing school in December. At that time, I replied, "So you're thinking maybe January-ish?" and she replied in the affirmative. Therefore, I would assume that means she feels or hopes at least, that she'll be comfortable with sexual activity at that time. I believe this conversation took place about two months ago, give or take a few weeks. (So early August perhaps)

Going back to my concerns expressed here... Again I'm not concerned or upset with her unwillingness to be sexual right now, I'm concerned about her unwillingness to be physically affectionate in ANY way. Hear me out. You would think that if January is roughly the timeframe for when sexual activity might be expected, that leading up to that time, things like hugs, kisses, cuddling, a willingness to change clothes in front of your partner, etc. would be reasonable/logical, right?

So that is the problem. She hasn't kissed me in nearly three and a half years. She hugs me, but doesn't feel comfortable cuddling in bed or changing clothes in front of me yet. According to her, we've been working on a reconciliation now for close to 18 months, and she moved back home a little over four months ago, and she still can't give me a kiss, or let herself be seen in her underwear while changing clothes even? (Not even naked, just underwear!)

So to answer your concern Firebelly, I guess I differentiate things like kissing, hugs, cuddling, comfort with nudity, etc. from all things involved in "sexual activity". I'm not looking for a hand job from her by any stretch, but a kiss would be nice, cuddling in bed would be nice, that sort of thing. And again, if she figures that a return to sexuality is due in as little as 9 weeks from now (when she graduates), then you would think she'd be opening up to those things as well.


One further clarification. I will not be willing to commit to trying to get pregnant if we haven't first recovered our romantic and sexual relationship. At this point I do trust her, but if January rolls around with not much having changed, and then one day she says she is ready to try to get pregnant, then that will not fly with me. I'm not interested in knocking her up and then watching the promise of romance and sexuality disappear again.


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## cdbaker

One more thing, a question for everyone I suppose...

Our ten year marital anniversary is just a few weeks away, and I'm still not sure what I should do for her/us. We're "back together" but by no means are we romantic or physical yet. I'd love to take us out for a night on the town followed by a nice hotel room in the city or something like that, even with the 100% expectation of no sexual activity, but I don't think she'd be comfortable with that yet. I could buy her a gift like earrings or something but I don't know if she'd appreciate it right now. (Plus, money is always a concern for us) I think if I asked her right now what she thinks we aught to do, she'd probably say we should just skip it. If I don't do anything, I know she'll think that I don't care. So I'm not really sure of what I should do here.


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## wilderness

You are obviously very bright, and I believe wholeheartedly that you are a good man. But sir, in my opinion you are being played. Your wife is using you. I hate to be blunt, but your wife had repeated sex with a likely child molester. You have never been nor ever will be a child molester, and your wife knows this. As such, the 'trust' excuse is a crock in my opinion. I also believe you are assigning yourself an inordinate share of the blame to yourself for her mistreatment of you. I believe this is your coping mechanism.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wilderness

You are obviously very bright, and I believe wholeheartedly that you are a good man. But sir, in my opinion you are being played. Your wife is using you. I hate to be blunt, but your wife had repeated sex with a likely child molester. You have never been nor ever will be a child molester, and your wife knows this. As such, the 'trust' excuse is a crock in my opinion. I also believe you are assigning yourself an inordinate share of the blame to yourself for her mistreatment of you. I believe this is your coping mechanism. It is more than reasonable for you to expect your wife to have sex with you at this point. If she refuses, my opinion is that you are likely to be facing a custody battle. If I were you I would tell her to start giving it up or find a new place to live. Enough is enough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## harrybrown

Talk to her about your anniversary, see what she thinks about it.

At the same time, you should ask about her future plans. Do they include you? Nursing school can be tough and usually is difficult. Does she show you daughter more love now? And I think she has some plans, but I am not sure that these plans include you.

She does not want you to touch her, for a long time now.
She is not in this marriage.


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## firebelly1

cdbaker said:


> So that is the problem. She hasn't kissed me in nearly three and a half years. She hugs me, but doesn't feel comfortable cuddling in bed or changing clothes in front of me yet. According to her, we've been working on a reconciliation now for close to 18 months, and she moved back home a little over four months ago, and she still can't give me a kiss, or let herself be seen in her underwear while changing clothes even? (Not even naked, just underwear!)
> 
> So to answer your concern Firebelly, I guess I differentiate things like kissing, hugs, cuddling, comfort with nudity, etc. from all things involved in "sexual activity". I'm not looking for a hand job from her by any stretch, but a kiss would be nice, cuddling in bed would be nice, that sort of thing. And again, if she figures that a return to sexuality is due in as little as 9 weeks from now (when she graduates), then you would think she'd be opening up to those things as well.
> 
> 
> One further clarification. I will not be willing to commit to trying to get pregnant if we haven't first recovered our romantic and sexual relationship. At this point I do trust her, but if January rolls around with not much having changed, and then one day she says she is ready to try to get pregnant, then that will not fly with me. I'm not interested in knocking her up and then watching the promise of romance and sexuality disappear again.


Maybe I'm biased 'cause I really want you to get rewarded for all your hard work, but I still have hope for you and her in the affection and sex department. I'm not convinced (like some of the people responding to your thread) that she is playing you. 

Seems like you've said in this thread that you have had this discussion with her - that you've told her you'd like to have some physical affection? Maybe she's afraid that if she initiates those things you will see it as a sign that she's ready for sex when she's not? Have you had that discussion with her - that you won't take a kiss or her undressing in front of you as a sign that she's ready for sex if she's not? If that's her issue she may be more willing to be physically affectionate if she doesn't feel like she has to follow through with sex as a result.


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## firebelly1

Wilderness - and all the men I see on TAM who seem to have this point of view - all due respect, sex is not the same for women. I'll be the first one to tell you that women in general want sex way more than our culture thinks or wants to think they do, but the biggest sex organ IS the brain. Libido IS dependent on how you think about the other person and what you think their expectations are and a whole host of other things. Women can and do feel NOTHING sexually for years for psychological reasons alone and then, blam, the guy has hit the tipping point of saying just the right amount of things, and you can't spread your legs fast enough.


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## FeministInPink

firebelly1 said:


> Wilderness - and all the men I see on TAM who seem to have this point of view - all due respect, sex is not the same for women. I'll be the first one to tell you that women in general want sex way more than our culture thinks or wants to think they do, but the biggest sex organ IS the brain. Libido IS dependent on how you think about the other person and what you think their expectations are and a whole host of other things. Women can and do feel NOTHING sexually for years for psychological reasons alone and then, blam, the guy has hit the tipping point of saying just the right amount of things, and you can't spread your legs fast enough.


:iagree:


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## wilderness

firebelly1 said:


> Wilderness - and all the men I see on TAM who seem to have this point of view - all due respect, sex is not the same for women. I'll be the first one to tell you that women in general want sex way more than our culture thinks or wants to think they do, but the biggest sex organ IS the brain. Libido IS dependent on how you think about the other person and what you think their expectations are and a whole host of other things. Women can and do feel NOTHING sexually for years for psychological reasons alone and then, blam, the guy has hit the tipping point of saying just the right amount of things, and you can't spread your legs fast enough.


Doesn't matter, imo. Sex is an obligation of marriage. As his wife she is obligated to do it whether she wants to or not. The fact that she had sex with a child molester, yet won't have sex with him is about the biggest slap in the face I can imagine.


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## sammy3

This women loves her husband, she just not in love w him .... And that is her struggle... Imho 

~ sammy


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## sammy3

And p.s. Women love sex, they just dont like bad sex ... 

~sammy


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## bandit.45

I just read this thread through...

Now I'm guzzling a Gatoraide... Jesus H.....

This thread has pissed me off like no other. Cdbaker I'm not going to elaborate on anything anyone has told you already. All I want to say is, if there is no affection, no physical intamacy, then what you have with your wife is nothing more than a living arrangement... a business agreement to live together and coparent the kid. This is not a marriage. Not even remotely a marriage. 

Your wife is not LD, or conflicted, or confused...

She doesn't love you. A wife who loves her husband has sex with her husband. 

And your marriage counselor is a moron for not holding your sorry excuse for a wife accountable for her past actions and present lack thereof. 

The minute your wife gets her nursing degree and gets a job she's going to divorce you. That is my prediction.


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## cdbaker

firebelly1 said:


> Maybe I'm biased 'cause I really want you to get rewarded for all your hard work, but I still have hope for you and her in the affection and sex department. I'm not convinced (like some of the people responding to your thread) that she is playing you.
> 
> Seems like you've said in this thread that you have had this discussion with her - that you've told her you'd like to have some physical affection? Maybe she's afraid that if she initiates those things you will see it as a sign that she's ready for sex when she's not? Have you had that discussion with her - that you won't take a kiss or her undressing in front of you as a sign that she's ready for sex if she's not? If that's her issue she may be more willing to be physically affectionate if she doesn't feel like she has to follow through with sex as a result.


Yep we have actually had that conversation as well. Basically I thought that might be the case, that there could be a concern/fear that her initiating ANY kind of physical act (even something as simple as a kiss) might lead me to think that she is willing or wanting to go further. I imagine that no woman enjoys being put in a situation where a man is eagerly trying to seduce her when she has zero interest in it, and then having to reject him. So I reminded her one night a month or two ago of my promise to not push for or expect anything sexual from her for the foreseeable future, and I would let her know when that changes. I then specifically explained why I wanted reiterate that promise, saying that I didn't want her to have any fear as it relates to opening up to me in some way. That even if my dumb male brain starts to think, "Whoa, maybe she wants more! Maybe this is where I'm supposed to make a move? Women like us to do that right?!" or something similar, I will not act on it or even ask her about it. 

I added that, of course, if she ever DID want to engage sexually, that she would have to directly state that to me in plain english. As we guys know, most women like it when we can read their signals and push just a little bit at the right times to show how desirous we are and willing to take control. And women will feel rejected and undesirable if a man does not act on those signals/hints after a while, so I also wanted it made clear she should not feel rejected if she starts dropping signals and I don't respond to them.


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## BK23

this is a painful read, man. I'm sorry you're in this situation. I think you're letting yourself be used.


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## cdbaker

Personally, I think the problem is a little different. Going back a bit, before she ultimately moved out and immediately after her first "real" affair, she verbally committed to making the effort to repair the marriage. There were two problems then. The first was that she was still in love with the OM and struggled mightily to let him go, falling into a depression for several weeks which included her trying to reach out to him occasionally in weakness. (He was just using her for sex, he had no intention of leaving his wife/kids)

We don't have that problem now, but the second problem she had was that she felt that by coming home (we'd separated for about a month) and doing the "right" thing by ending the affair, recommitting to her husband/family, going back to MC, to church, etc. that things would naturally get better. After all, doing the "RIGHT" thing is always for the better, right? Plus she had all her friends and family urging her to do so, again because it was the right thing to do. Commit to her vows, marriage has its up's and downs and you have to ride them out sometimes and their worth it in the end, etc. 

The problem is, things didn't get better right away as she had expected. Coming home to me, a man she was no longer in love with because of a history of marital problems (especially while she was still in love with another) was exhausting and miserable for her. Knowing the things she had done and the pain she'd put me through also weighed heavily on her when having to see me every day, not to mention the guilt/shame of knowing that everyone else knew about it as well. The pressure of the world was on her to do the right thing now, that she'd "screwed up" by having the affair and that if she gave up now then she'd REALLY be an awful person. All the while everyone (friends/family) believing that I was some kind of a saint for even taking her back at all. I'm pretty sure I became the embodiment of everything in her life that was making her miserable, even though she knew I was only responsible for a small part of it, that being the marital issues I contributed to prior to her affair. The expectations placed on her by myself and everyone else in her life were enormous. 

Trying to see that from an outsider perspective (which I can't perfectly do of course) I think anyone in that situation would have an INCREDIBLY difficult time truly trying to rebuild love and trust with that person, no matter how good the man is. So my thought now is that perhaps something similar is going on now. The pressures on her probably aren't quite as great as they were before, but I see all the same building places there.

First, I think she has seen the improvements I've made in the last few years, the efforts I have made, and that I am a decent man and good father. She knew that it would be better for our daughter if we could reconcile our marriage and build it stronger. Her family and most of her friends all hoped it would be possible too. I think the problem is that, just like last time, she just hasn't FELT better about it yet. I think a big part of her hoped/expected that simply doing the right thing and coming home and trusting me more would result in her feelings of love returning, that everything would "naturally" just "get better" on their own.

I get this idea because of the various promises and assurances she has made in the past as it relates to our future that haven't quite turned out the way she indicated or have been delayed. Like sleeping in the same bed together, kisses, even possibly trying to get pregnant after she graduates in December seems to be pretty unlikely at this point. I think she really truly believed that she would feel far more comfortable with me at this point in time than she is today. And worse, I fear that the fact that she isn't feeling that degree of comfort with me after this much time, might be leading her to question her decision to give this another try, regardless of any efforts on my part.


Another thought I have been pondering lately... is that it seems to me like she just has no interest in love, physical intimacy, etc. with ANYONE. Even long after the last affair partner (the one who tried to bed a minor and is in jail), she never pursued or accepted the solicitations of anyone else. In the last six months before he was arrested, when she says they weren't really in a relationship, she didn't pursue anyone else then either. Since returning home, despite my being somewhat vigilant, I haven't seen any evidence of any kind to indicate that she is interested in anyone else, seeing anyone else, or speaking with anyone else inappropriately. I mean, I'm not tracking her computer/phone usage or crossing any trust boundaries or anything, but I'm not a fool, I keep my eyes and ears open for warning signs.

So I guess I struggle with the notion that anyone could simply lose interest in sex/romance/relationships altogether. When my wife left, even though I spent the next three and a half years trying to win her back, I only waited about two months before I opened up to seeing other women, based on the belief that our marriage was likely doomed anyway. I crave intimacy, and not just sexually speaking either. I could understand going without for a while, but for 1.5 - 2 years now? It's hard for me to comprehend. Naturally, I hope that she hasn't just become (or maybe always has been) asexual, though it is something I have long feared for many years.


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## cdbaker

Wilderness, Harry, Bandit, Sammy, etc... Maybe you are all right, maybe she is playing me. I'm still at this point convinced that she is not, due to a number of reasons, many of which I have detailed here and maybe a few I haven't.

I do want to restate it again just to be clear. My wife was not knowingly sleeping with a sex offender. He did the horrible things he did while they were together completely without her knowing while she worked nearly full time while a full-time nursing student. He was an overnight warehouse security guard (the kind who sits in a booth waiting for truck deliveries to show up and check them in, provided a TV to watch and a TON of free time) who after searching his car and hidden spaces in the apartment, was found with about a dozen pre-paid cell phones to conceal his activities. She was fooled more than anyone, and felt extreme guilt and humiliation for having not known or suspected it. So her having an affair was wrong and she has to live with that, but the fact that he turned out to be a sexual predator doesn't make it any worse, more shameful, etc.


One more thing that's worth piecing together, going all the way back to her freshman year of high school, she has had relationships with four different men since that time, ALL of whom have betrayed her in some extreme way, and all of those also included sexual betrayal. To summarize:

1. 9th Grade BF: Dated for a few months then insisted on taking her virginity, knocked her up within a few weeks of that starting, then dumping her a few weeks later. Upon learning of her pregnancy, he launched into a campaign to turn their entire grade/school against her by publicly branding her as a ****, a tramp, not worthy of decency, with her growing belly as proof of his assertions. He and his friends would follow her, taunt her, threaten her in the halls at school, etc. She gave up the baby for adoption to a family who could not have children, while he went on to marry his 2nd cousin and then cheat on her relentlessly. Incidentally, while she was pregnant she was raped by a classmate who got her over to his house by lying to her about having a party.

2. Me. She and I met and started dating about six months after the baby was born. After our marriage I became a pervert/sexual deviant/porn addict who actively sought to get her to have sex with others so that I could watch and then possibly participate, take intimate pictures/video of her or us to post online for others, openly blaming her for her lack of libido and refusing her desire for another child as a result, willing to "throw her under the bus" in order to make myself look better in the eyes of others, etc. She felt unloved, undesirable, unworthy of love, and trapped, all while I was completely clueless. She was miserable in the last year or two before she ultimately began the first affair.

3. OM #1. In her misery, she was incredibly susceptible to any other man who might pay her a moments notice, like a woman wandering the dessert starving of thirst and then being offered a glass of water, she clung to it. He was married with kids, and made promises left and right to her, all the while increasingly demanding more of her sexually, including his own perverted fantasies. (Sex in public, in dirty places, etc.) Things she never would have been into on her own. He repeatedly broke his promises, used her and once caught, dumped her to the side. She was left completely heartbroken and incredibly angry.

4. Final OM #2, now incarcerated as a sex offender. After briefly returning home to try to "make things right" but struggling to do so under the circumstances (check my post a few posts up for details), she met OM #2 who easily recognized the opportunity before him and quickly seduced her into doing his will. Charming and a master manipulator, he topped OM #1 by a mile, using her at will, requiring her to tattoo his initials to her wrist (which she covered up a week later when he wasn't around, against his wishes of course), making her engaged in even more twists sexual exploits, all while still pursing other (elusively young) women at the same time behind her back. He too made promises that he broke, and used her financially as well, insisting that she pay the rent and all the bills herself with 30/hr per week job while in full-time nursing school, saying that he barely had enough money for his cigarettes and food after much of his check would be garnished for child support payments and financial judgments against him. Then of course, there was ultimately his arrest and the slow unraveling of everything he was doing behind her back. She was left ashamed, angry, humiliated, etc.


She is 29 years old, and what I just described represents the last 14 years of her life. Not to mention the fact that the first ten years of her life consisted of her parents divorce before she was born due to abuse, her mom going through a series of boyfriends including a couple who moved in with them, and her dad has since been divorced four times. So honestly, I think she has darn good reasons to be fearful and distrustful of true commitment, love, physical intimacy, etc. Having been repeatedly used, betrayed, or witness to betrayal and broken promises her entire life, who could blame her???


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## FeministInPink

cd, you have a good heart... but it's sounding like you're making a LOT of excuses for her. A LOT of excuses.

You say she's been through the ringer with men in your most recent post, but from the outside it reads like a laundry list of bad choices on her part. She made really bad choices; why are you now expected to pay for that?

I understand that you think you're paying up for your own bad behavior in your marriage, but sometimes you have to say enough is enough. Problem is, you're not saying anything; you're letting her run you roughshod and take advantage of you, because you think that's what you deserve. I see someone martyring himself because he thinks that he deserves to be punished for what he did.


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## cdbaker

Maybe you are right Feminist. I definitely do think I deserve what I got, but I think I've really paid the price by now and at this point I just want to move forward. If my actions contributed to the issues she struggles with now however, then it wouldn't be right for me to not give her this chance to heal and start over.

With that said, I sure wouldn't mind getting some advice on how I can turn things around a little bit at this point. And I don't mean advice like, "Kick her to the curb and move on!" or "Give her an ultimatum and two weeks to shape up or ship out!" type of advice. We're in too deep for something like that and I wouldn't want things to end BADLY anyway, especially with our 9 year old daughter involved. It would be especially hard on her for things to not work out this time after my wife has already moved back home and been led to believe that things are "going to be alright now."

Are there any baby step type expectations that I could fairly lay out for her? Perhaps some that could force her to make some additional effort that matches her assurances, without asking her to go from 5mph to 100mph all at once?


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## cdbaker

I've been thinking about changing my approach a bit. She knows I am eager to be romantic again, to have fun with her, go out on dates, go dancing or to movies, etc. but she isn't interested so I haven't been able to. I've been thinking about just going out and doing one of those things on my own or with some friends, just showing that if she isn't interested in having fun with me, then I'm more than willing to go it alone and leave her at home. Nothing mean about it, no expression of anger/frustration/disappointment with her, and willing to be flexible as far as when I go so that it doesn't interfere with her schedule. Of course, I wouldn't be going on dates with other women or anything, but I can go out and do a lot of things myself or with friends perfectly innocently.


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## FeministInPink

cdbaker said:


> Maybe you are right Feminist. I definitely do think I deserve what I got, but I think I've really paid the price by now and at this point I just want to move forward. *If my actions contributed to the issues she struggles with now however, then it wouldn't be right for me to not give her this chance to heal and start over.*
> 
> With that said, I sure wouldn't mind getting some advice on how I can turn things around a little bit at this point. And I don't mean advice like, "Kick her to the curb and move on!" or "Give her an ultimatum and two weeks to shape up or ship out!" type of advice. We're in too deep for something like that and I wouldn't want things to end BADLY anyway, especially with our 9 year old daughter involved. It would be especially hard on her for things to not work out this time after my wife has already moved back home and been led to believe that things are "going to be alright now."
> 
> Are there any baby step type expectations that I could fairly lay out for her? Perhaps some that could force her to make some additional effort that matches her assurances, without asking her to go from 5mph to 100mph all at once?


Fair enough, but if she's playing you, then you need to move on -- because her stringing you along is just as bad as anything you did to her.

I think at some point very, very soon, you're going to need to lay things out for her regarding what you need (and are not getting) out of the relationship. If you don't want to rush her, establish steps and deadlines together. She should WANT to have a fully functioning marriage; if she hems and haws, I expect that our other friends on TAM are right, and she's playing you.

At some point, you need to stop blaming yourself for everything that's gone wrong in your marriage, and for what's wrong with her. I get it. She had a bad childhood. Her first boyfriend was a d!ck. You were a d!ck to her before, and so on and so forth. But remember, those were HER CHOICES. She makes bad choices because of her own issues, and if she's not willing to put on her grown-up panties and deal with her issues head-on, your marriage isn't going to re-cover. I fully put the responsibility on her if she's not putting in the effort, fixing her problems, and learning to make bad choices.


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## ConanHub

cdbaker said:


> I've been thinking about changing my approach a bit. She knows I am eager to be romantic again, to have fun with her, go out on dates, go dancing or to movies, etc. but she isn't interested so I haven't been able to. I've been thinking about just going out and doing one of those things on my own or with some friends, just showing that if she isn't interested in having fun with me, then I'm more than willing to go it alone and leave her at home. Nothing mean about it, no expression of anger/frustration/disappointment with her, and willing to be flexible as far as when I go so that it doesn't interfere with her schedule. Of course, I wouldn't be going on dates with other women or anything, but I can go out and do a lot of things myself or with friends perfectly innocently.


Brother you know what I have stated previously and I have not changed my position. I believe your wife is fairly to severely impaired in the EQ arena. I have seen choices she has made, that would make her a pariah with most, be excused by you. You always reflect on yourself as Fem/Pink has stated.

If she is unwilling or unable to get intensive IC, then I think you should. You should improve as a person as much as possible and ALPHA UP. You may be alpha enough, but from your posts it seems maybe not. You do have to be willing to lose your marriage to save it, right now from what everyone can see, it is a big pile!! You are not happy and making progress, and she seems happy to remain very dis-functional.

If she will not work at becoming a better person, then you should!!  If nothing else, you will be a better man for your daughter and yourself. Maybe your self improvements will even catch her eye, BUT DO NOT LOOK TO HER FOR APPROVAL!! You must find self worth outside of her perceptions of you. Honestly, her opinion should not be respected right now anyway as she is pretty screwed up.

Still hoping the best for you, but the ingredients that made your marriage taste like sh1t before are still there. 
For heavens sake CHANGE THE INGREDIENTS!!
Take care. Conan


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## Oblivious2678

Cdbaker, you've been a great help to me since I entered TAM and during that time, I've noticed through your posts that your alpha/beta balance has shifted towards the beta. When you were giving me advice, you were very much alpha and advising me to focus on myself. You aren't focusing on yourself anymore. Your full focus is on her and fixing the marriage. It seems as if you are trying to force things onto the track. She's in the house. That's a good thing. The next step (all baby steps) is her taking the initiate to want to spend quality time with you. It seems like she isn't at that stage yet. Continue to focus on bettering yourself. Re-read some of the books to refocus. For me, I've said that I have to logically give my situation twice the amount of time to heal that it took to fall apart. Your timeframe might be a long, drawn out one and if you're 'in it to win it', then get mentally prepared for it.


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## wilderness

I really think you should consider getting her out of your house. If I am right, and I hope I'm not, she is setting you up for a custody battle that will make your present day life look like a bed of roses. Let's face it, man...you don't have anything close to a marriage. Like someone else said, this is painful to read. I can't imagine how painful it must be to live.
You deserve more than that. You are a good guy, and I can see that just from reading your posts. It really shines through.

If you are absolutely insistent that you won't kick her out, I believe you are correct in going out by yourself. At this point it wouldn't hurt to have women calling you openly. Not that you plan on having sex with them, but just to get your wife jealous. IMO you have 0 to lose, so maybe try this as a last resort.

Last thing, I think you are being WAY TOO passive about the sex thing. You have endured far more than any person should be expected to in light of her affairs. This is your wife, and to have an expectation of sex is more than reasonable. Perhaps it's time to put the heat on your wife? I'd be starting conversations, making comments, maybe even starting fights at this point. Push her off the fence, in other words.


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## FeministInPink

wilderness said:


> I really think you should consider getting her out of your house. If I am right, and I hope I'm not, she is setting you up for a custody battle that will make your present day life look like a bed of roses. Let's face it, man...you don't have anything close to a marriage. Like someone else said, this is painful to read. I can't imagine how painful it must be to live.
> You deserve more than that. You are a good guy, and I can see that just from reading your posts. It really shines through.
> 
> If you are absolutely insistent that you won't kick her out, I believe you are correct in going out by yourself. At this point it wouldn't hurt to have women calling you openly. Not that you plan on having sex with them, but just to get your wife jealous. IMO you have 0 to lose, so maybe try this as a last resort.
> 
> Last thing, I think you are being WAY TOO passive about the sex thing. You have endured far more than any person should be expected to in light of her affairs. This is your wife, and to have an expectation of sex is more than reasonable. Perhaps it's time to put the heat on your wife? I'd be starting conversations, making comments, maybe even starting fights at this point. Push her off the fence, in other words.


Wilderness is right, you've got nothing to lose -- except all the time you're wasting right now. I think it's time to tell her, sh!t or get off the pot.


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## firebelly1

cdbaker said:


> Wilderness, Harry, Bandit, Sammy, etc... Maybe you are all right, maybe she is playing me. I'm still at this point convinced that she is not, due to a number of reasons, many of which I have detailed here and maybe a few I haven't.
> 
> One more thing that's worth piecing together, going all the way back to her freshman year of high school, she has had relationships with four different men since that time, ALL of whom have betrayed her in some extreme way, and all of those also included sexual betrayal. To summarize:
> 
> 1. 9th Grade BF...
> 
> 2. Me...
> 
> 3. OM #1...
> 
> 4. Final OM #2...
> 
> 
> She is 29 years old... Having been repeatedly used, betrayed, or witness to betrayal and broken promises her entire life, who could blame her???


Wow. Reading your accounts of your wife's sexual history, I think its no wonder she is hesitant to be affectionate. She has been betrayed by every man she's ever had sex with. You don't get into detail about her ability to orgasm but reading her sexual history I wonder if that's an issue too - if she's ever orgasmed with a partner or gotten physical pleasure from sex. If she hasn't AND this is her sexual history, sex could be a giant, ugly monster for her psychologically. That doesn't make her asexual or incapable of physical pleasure, it just means the road to sexual pleasure is an uphill battle. 

I think the term "playing you" is an unfair judgment on your wife but I also think it is fair for you to expect some signs of progress on her part. You've clearly stated your position on what you think progress would be, she isn't showing it. The next logical step really is marriage counselling and if that isn't a possibility for whatever reason you may have to face the fact that you've done everything you can, you shouldn't have to pay for your "sins" forever, and she just isn't there. Accept living indefinitely as roommates or lovingly help her to move out.


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## firebelly1

One more thing...when I read that she's only 29, that gave me some hope. My sexual peak didn't happen until my mid-30's. At some point in the next few years her hormones may kick her into sexual high gear whether she likes it or not.


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## remorseful strayer

Cdbaker:

Wow, Cdbaker, you are an incredibly insightful and introspective person. 

Because of that, and after reading the post I have included in this post, I think this relationship has a chance at reconciliation. I for one am rooting for you two. 

There is nothing wrong with admitting that you want her back, absolutely nothing. Particularly regarding the swinging issue, but even without that really. 

Can you, by any chance, step up the sexual connection stuff. Sex can reconnect that physical emotional bond in a way that nothing else can. 

Have you attempted to be sexual with her? If so, has she rejected it? If so, has she said why she does not want to be sexual?




cdbaker said:


> Tulsy: As I said, it's a terribly long story. I can say that I know I share a large portion of the responsibility for what happened. I never cheated, abused her or yelled/screamed, never drank or did drugs or gambled or any of the "obvious" things that a man can do to ruin a marriage, but I was a piss-poor husband. I left her starved for affection, used guilt and manipulation freely, got into some pretty messed up sexual fantasies and more. I drove her away, to the point that any guy who gave her a tiny bit of positive attention, would leave her captivated and vulnerable. I loved her dearly and thought I was a good husband by not doing any of the bad "obvious" things listed above, I worked hard to provide a good living, bought her gifts and supported activities/friends, but in the other important relational/emotional ways, I failed miserably. Cheating was absolutely wrong, she knows that, but I drove her to it, and in some screwy ways even endorsed it. (there was a time when we tried swinging) The sex offender was a smooth talking, manipulative dead beat, all three factors needed for a woman in her position. (charisma to charm her and lure her in, manipulative to break down her values to get her to do what he wanted, a dead beat so as to be "above her" in any way, so she would never have to feel inferior to him, which given her poor self esteem at that time, was a breath of fresh air to not have to worry if you are "good enough")
> 
> So maybe I have rug swept a few things, and I know no one should blame themselves fully when a partner cheats, but I am also supremely confident that her adultery never would have occurred if I had been even a half-decent husband. So I feel if I have learned from my mistakes and be a good husband going forward, then I shouldn't have anything to fear from her in that area.


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## remorseful strayer

cdbaker said:


> I've been thinking about changing my approach a bit. She knows I am eager to be romantic again, to have fun with her, go out on dates, go dancing or to movies, etc. but she isn't interested so I haven't been able to. I've been thinking about just going out and doing one of those things on my own or with some friends, just showing that if she isn't interested in having fun with me, then I'm more than willing to go it alone and leave her at home. Nothing mean about it, no expression of anger/frustration/disappointment with her, and willing to be flexible as far as when I go so that it doesn't interfere with her schedule. Of course, I wouldn't be going on dates with other women or anything, but I can go out and do a lot of things myself or with friends perfectly innocently.



All of the above sounds like an excellent idea. 

Always invite her along, too. But, if she says, no, go out yourself, anyway. 

You guys need to rebond by being sexual again. It's a chemistry thing. It's really important. 

No pressure, though...perhaps romance or being more alpha by working out and getting your own hobbies and showing her that you can be happy without her, if need be.


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## sammy3

Cdbaker, 

Believe me,I understand what you are feeling, because sometimes even though we know what we're doing is so crazy, and we know we aren't acting in our best interest, and we do hear what others are telling us, it's just so hard to let go. Sometimes, we just don't know how to do it. Nor want to do it, nor ready to do it. 

~ sammy


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## cdbaker

I imagine that most of you are right to some degree or another. I just struggle to believe a lot of it based on what I see with my own eyes. She hasn't kissed or even lovingly touched me in any way for over three and a half years (again, realize that we were separated and on a divorce path for over 3 of those years), but in the last few weeks alone she's been framing and hanging dozens of our family photos on our walls, planning a wedding trip to family on the east coast next year, going brides maid dress shopping with my sister (who gets married in May), etc. So she seems to be able to commit to the marriage in just about every way except physically.

So yes, I struggle with the idea of pushing harder when the reality is that she is committing in a lot of ways, just not the ways that fulfill me the most.

So should I walk away? Maybe, but I'm not willing to do so just yet, certainly not right before the holidays anyway. Instead I first want to find ways to try to move us forward. I have suggested marriage counseling or individual counseling for her, and thus far she has said she doesn't want to do either. Why do most people turn down the idea of counseling? I think it usually either A. because the person doesn't care enough about the situation to fix it, B. because the person doesn't believe anything is wrong with the situation or their behavior, or C. because the person is afraid that they will be "busted" and be asked to change/do something they don't want to do. I'm convinced that the reason for her opposition is 90% scenario C and maybe 10% scenario B.

Scenario B because she believes so strongly that her past, and our past, sort of gives her a pass on having to commit herself physically, at least for a long time. Scenario C because she struggles enormously when it comes to guilt, being told that she is wrong or at fault, and doesn't know how to handle those feelings well. So if she already knows that being physical with me in any way, shape or form makes her extremely uncomfortable, and she knows that it is really important for any relationship, then why would she want to commit to counseling if she already knows he/she is going to direct her to commit to something that makes her uncomfortable?

It's the same mentality that keeps a lot of people from going to the doctor. Someone who hasn't been to the doctor for ten years should probably go get a check-up, but if they are enormously afraid that they'll be told that something is wrong with them that will require a lot of treatment, or worse, then a lot of those people simply choose to not go to the doctor in the first place.

I could insist that we go to marital counseling, but her other excuse would be that she is a full time nursing school student and works part time as well. Simply that she wouldn't have time. She graduates from nursing school in about six weeks, so I'm inclined to just schedule something for after her graduation so that she won't have that excuse.


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## BK23

It will be quite illuminating to see what her attitude is after she finishes nursing school and is financially able to survive on her own. I feel terrible for you. Not to beat a dead horse, but from the outside, this seems pretty obvious.


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## Dewayne76

CD, I sent a pm to you with a link to personality changes caused by Antidepressant use (Strictly of the SSRI / SNRI variety) and causing divorces etc. Please read it. I didn't read all through the pages, just stopped where I saw you said she was taking an Antidepressant. 

My ex wife was RXd 20mg of Citalopram for CHEST PAINS and in 3 months, all our problems started. Drinking, lying, cheating, stealing from the company etc. PLEASE look into that link I sent you. 

For what it's worth, there's tons of people on there, THAT WERE MEDICATED and telling how they felt like they were in a fog, not in control and can't explain why they did the things they did. 

Dewayne


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## firebelly1

cdbaker said:


> I could insist that we go to marital counseling, but her other excuse would be that she is a full time nursing school student and works part time as well. Simply that she wouldn't have time. She graduates from nursing school in about six weeks, so I'm inclined to just schedule something for after her graduation so that she won't have that excuse.


She has time to go to a one hour MC session every other week. I think you need a conversation before you schedule in which you say "I need sex and physical touch to feel committed to the relationship. I've tried everything I know how to get us moving toward that and I feel like what I've tried hasn't worked so I'm at a point where I feel the last thing that might work is marriage counselling and I'm going to schedule an appointment for us." Then you suggest three times when you believe she could most easily show up and ask her which of those times works best for her. If she continues not to choose a time, tell her you will call the counselor and arrange a time you think might work best for her and then follow through. Then, she shows up or doesn't and if she doesn't you take it from there. 

I also like your idea of waiting until after the Holidays, not only to keep the Holidays peaceful but because you kind of gave her a deadline and that deadline wasn't until January.


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## missthelove2013

FeministInPink said:


> cd, you have a good heart... but it's sounding like you're making a LOT of excuses for her. A LOT of excuses.
> 
> You say she's been through the ringer with men in your most recent post, but from the outside it reads like a laundry list of bad choices on her part. She made really bad choices; why are you now expected to pay for that?
> 
> I understand that you think you're paying up for your own bad behavior in your marriage, but sometimes you have to say enough is enough. Problem is, you're not saying anything; you're letting her run you roughshod and take advantage of you, because you think that's what you deserve. I see someone martyring himself because he thinks that he deserves to be punished for what he did.


quoted for truth
Ive read this thread and I know there is MUCH more to the story than we are being told...but i really cant figure out WHY anyone would want to R in this situation...

Maybe I missed it, but CD...WHY do you want to make this marriage work?? Do you have a list of the positives you get from this marriage??


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## Really!?!?

cdbaker said:


> One more thing, a question for everyone I suppose...
> 
> Our ten year marital anniversary is just a few weeks away, and I'm still not sure what I should do for her/us. We're "back together" but by no means are we romantic or physical yet.



CDBaker, has your 10 year Anniversary come and gone yet? What is the legal Alimony and Long Term relationship timeframe where you live? In the state where I live, it's 10 years. 

If I am married to my soon-to-ex-wife after our 10 year Anniversary next Spring, then it's considered a long term relationship, and if one spouse is awarded alimony, it could be for LIFE (unless the spouse getting the alimony re-marries). I make 12 times more than what my wife earns,.... so I could end up paying alimony for LIFE.

Let me also say, that I was married to my current W, then divorced for 2 years, then re-married for almost 10 years the 2nd time around, and we have one child together. I thought the 2 year split would let us both grow, heal, figure things out,.... and we reconciled, remarried, and things were great for a couple years,.... but I ultimately discovered that the W's childhood trauma has cursed her FOREVER with a horrific mental illness and dysfunction in intimate relationships. 

We are preparing to divorce a 2nd time now, she still lives in the house (cause she can't afford to move yet, and doesn't realize she doesn't hardly make any $), and I believe she is actively looking for her next victim and dating. I confronted her on it, but she denies it. Although I know her, and when she get's all dolled up and heavy makeup, etc,...

Rationalize it all you want, because that is natural, and what I did for a long time. But i have come to a level of acceptance, that my W is not capable of loving me in the way I was hoping might still be a "possibility". I mourn the loss of what I thought my life was going to be with her and our family, which is why I stuck it out for sooooo long. But, there is no saving this dysfunctional union.

She is a like caged animal that is yearning to run wild. This all stems from her low self esteem, CSA trauma, and trust issues. 

Dude, it's all part of the illness. I don't know what if at all your W has, but something is NOT right. 

I for one, can no longer walk on eggshells. 

Check with your lawyers on that 10 year alimony issue.

God speed


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## MEM2020

CD,
A few quick thoughts. For most guys a sexless marriage is a broken marriage. When your marriage was sexless you simply should have framed your viewpoint this way:
For me, a sexless marriage is a broken marriage. Adding a child to a broken marriage is unfair to everyone concerned, including the new baby. We need to fix our marriage before we even discuss another child. 

Your current plan is that you are reluctantly willing to restart your sex life by trying to conceive. 

EPIC FAIL. Voluntarily adding a child means that you are at least satisfied with the state of the marriage. At bare minimum 'satisfied'. What will you do, if she gets pregnant and then tells you that having sex with you doesn't 'feel right'?

You also state she has a big issue admitting fault, or being wrong. That is a CLASSIC trait of the refuser in a sexless marriage. They are low on empathy so when they screw up it's all about how 'they feel', not at all about making YOU feel better. Which is one reason why rejection is so effortless for them. 

Her total avoidance of touch with you is another huge red flag. 

And I can promise you this, if you don't make your marriage whole and healthy before trying to conceive, you are signaling to her in the strongest way possible that you are ok with the status quo. You might not 'like' it, but you will accept it. 

Making the house nice has zero to do with desire and empathy. Both of which she will need for you to feel loved. 




cdbaker said:


> I imagine that most of you are right to some degree or another. I just struggle to believe a lot of it based on what I see with my own eyes. She hasn't kissed or even lovingly touched me in any way for over three and a half years (again, realize that we were separated and on a divorce path for over 3 of those years), but in the last few weeks alone she's been framing and hanging dozens of our family photos on our walls, planning a wedding trip to family on the east coast next year, going brides maid dress shopping with my sister (who gets married in May), etc. So she seems to be able to commit to the marriage in just about every way except physically.
> 
> So yes, I struggle with the idea of pushing harder when the reality is that she is committing in a lot of ways, just not the ways that fulfill me the most.
> 
> So should I walk away? Maybe, but I'm not willing to do so just yet, certainly not right before the holidays anyway. Instead I first want to find ways to try to move us forward. I have suggested marriage counseling or individual counseling for her, and thus far she has said she doesn't want to do either. Why do most people turn down the idea of counseling? I think it usually either A. because the person doesn't care enough about the situation to fix it, B. because the person doesn't believe anything is wrong with the situation or their behavior, or C. because the person is afraid that they will be "busted" and be asked to change/do something they don't want to do. I'm convinced that the reason for her opposition is 90% scenario C and maybe 10% scenario B.
> 
> Scenario B because she believes so strongly that her past, and our past, sort of gives her a pass on having to commit herself physically, at least for a long time. Scenario C because she struggles enormously when it comes to guilt, being told that she is wrong or at fault, and doesn't know how to handle those feelings well. So if she already knows that being physical with me in any way, shape or form makes her extremely uncomfortable, and she knows that it is really important for any relationship, then why would she want to commit to counseling if she already knows he/she is going to direct her to commit to something that makes her uncomfortable?
> 
> It's the same mentality that keeps a lot of people from going to the doctor. Someone who hasn't been to the doctor for ten years should probably go get a check-up, but if they are enormously afraid that they'll be told that something is wrong with them that will require a lot of treatment, or worse, then a lot of those people simply choose to not go to the doctor in the first place.
> 
> I could insist that we go to marital counseling, but her other excuse would be that she is a full time nursing school student and works part time as well. Simply that she wouldn't have time. She graduates from nursing school in about six weeks, so I'm inclined to just schedule something for after her graduation so that she won't have that excuse.


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## wilderness

To CD:

You know, I can understand why you don't want to walk away. You are not a quitter and that is something that I respect about you. In a sense, I think it's the right thing to do as trying to keep a family together is about as worthwhile of an endeavor as there is.

BUT I think you are making a gigantic mistake by making this so easy on your wife. I just don't believe there is any utility in waiting around any further. It's already been tried and it hasn't produced fruit. Your wife knows what you have to offer. And you have a LOT to offer. You are a good dude with a very insightful and keen intellect. It really shines through in your posts, man. Don't discount that there are thousands of women out there that would love to have you.

Problem is, your wife is getting the whole package right now without having to give anything. She has little to no incentive to change. I believe you should really consider making her uncomfortable at this point. Put the moves on her and when she shoots you down or tries to shame you into backing off, don't back down. There is nothing to be ashamed of...it is perfectly normal and healthy to expect sex from your wife. Period. Man if this were me at minimum I'd be asking for sex every single day, and if she says no I'd be starting a conversation with her that is likely to be very uncomfortable for her. You don't have to be a jerk, but you do have to be firm and assertive. Then back up those talks with _actions_. After the first 3-4 fights, I'd tell her "I need to get out of the house." Then disappear until 2am and let her guess where you've been. IMO it's time to really shake things up.


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## MEM2020

CD,
The basic theme of a free ride described below is spot on. She is making the house nice, because she WANTS to. It isn't about you. 

As for the 'shock and awe' approach of requesting sex daily, I think that is a huge mistake as it comes across as needy and weak. 

Start with: I want a back massage tomorrow night. Just you touching me. And just a back massage. 

If she recoils at the thought of touching/pleasing you in such a vanilla manner, you have zero chance of her magically agreeing to recreational sex simply because it is January of 2014. 

And you are killing yourself with statements like: I don't expect sex for the foreseeable future. 

Instead the statement is: Lets give this some time and see what happens. If it turns out we aren't physically compatible, then we will be friendly ex spouses and I'm ok with that. 

You have to learn to define and assert boundaries:
- I won't add a child to a broken marriage
- I won't stay in a sexless marriage with a spouse who is not making a sincere effort to address that issue with me 
- I won't stay married to someone who can't/won't admit to their bad behavior, and try to address it because it makes 'them' feel bad to do so

------
Isn't it ironic that your 'fragile' wife has managed to 'get' exactly what she wants from you, without having to 'give' anything she doesn't wish to. 

She isn't fragile, she's clever. 


QUOTE=wilderness;5233554]To CD:

You know, I can understand why you don't want to walk away. You are not a quitter and that is something that I respect about you. In a sense, I think it's the right thing to do as trying to keep a family together is about as worthwhile of an endeavor as there is.

BUT I think you are making a gigantic mistake by making this so easy on your wife. I just don't believe there is any utility in waiting around any further. It's already been tried and it hasn't produced fruit. Your wife knows what you have to offer. And you have a LOT to offer. You are a good dude with a very insightful and keen intellect. It really shines through in your posts, man. Don't discount that there are thousands of women out there that would love to have you.

Problem is, your wife is getting the whole package right now without having to give anything. She has little to no incentive to change. I believe you should really consider making her uncomfortable at this point. Put the moves on her and when she shoots you down or tries to shame you into backing off, don't back down. There is nothing to be ashamed of...it is perfectly normal and healthy to expect sex from your wife. Period. Man if this were me at minimum I'd be asking for sex every single day, and if she says no I'd be starting a conversation with her that is likely to be very uncomfortable for her. You don't have to be a jerk, but you do have to be firm and assertive. Then back up those talks with _actions_. After the first 3-4 fights, I'd tell her "I need to get out of the house." Then disappear until 2am and let her guess where you've been. IMO it's time to really shake things up.[/QUOTE]


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## wilderness

MEM11363 said:


> CD,
> The basic theme of a free ride described below is spot on. She is making the house nice, because she WANTS to. It isn't about you.
> 
> As for the 'shock and awe' approach of requesting sex daily, I think that is a huge mistake as it comes across as needy and weak.
> 
> Start with: I want a back massage tomorrow night. Just you touching me. And just a back massage.
> 
> If she recoils at the thought of touching/pleasing you in such a vanilla manner, you have zero chance of her magically agreeing to recreational sex simply because it is January of 2014.
> 
> And you are killing yourself with statements like: I don't expect sex for the foreseeable future.
> 
> Instead the statement is: Lets give this some time and see what happens. If it turns out we aren't physically compatible, then we will be friendly ex spouses and I'm ok with that.
> 
> You have to learn to define and assert boundaries:
> - I won't add a child to a broken marriage
> - I won't stay in a sexless marriage with a spouse who is not making a sincere effort to address that issue with me
> - I won't stay married to someone who can't/won't admit to their bad behavior, and try to address it because it makes 'them' feel bad to do so
> 
> ------
> Isn't it ironic that your 'fragile' wife has managed to 'get' exactly what she wants from you, without having to 'give' anything she doesn't wish to.
> 
> She isn't fragile, she's clever.
> 
> 
> QUOTE=wilderness;5233554]To CD:
> 
> You know, I can understand why you don't want to walk away. You are not a quitter and that is something that I respect about you. In a sense, I think it's the right thing to do as trying to keep a family together is about as worthwhile of an endeavor as there is.
> 
> BUT I think you are making a gigantic mistake by making this so easy on your wife. I just don't believe there is any utility in waiting around any further. It's already been tried and it hasn't produced fruit. Your wife knows what you have to offer. And you have a LOT to offer. You are a good dude with a very insightful and keen intellect. It really shines through in your posts, man. Don't discount that there are thousands of women out there that would love to have you.
> 
> Problem is, your wife is getting the whole package right now without having to give anything. She has little to no incentive to change. I believe you should really consider making her uncomfortable at this point. Put the moves on her and when she shoots you down or tries to shame you into backing off, don't back down. There is nothing to be ashamed of...it is perfectly normal and healthy to expect sex from your wife. Period. Man if this were me at minimum I'd be asking for sex every single day, and if she says no I'd be starting a conversation with her that is likely to be very uncomfortable for her. You don't have to be a jerk, but you do have to be firm and assertive. Then back up those talks with _actions_. After the first 3-4 fights, I'd tell her "I need to get out of the house." Then disappear until 2am and let her guess where you've been. IMO it's time to really shake things up.


[/QUOTE]

With all due respect, I don't agree that putting the moves on a woman daily is necessarily needy or weak. It's all in how it's framed. At this point, I'd just go in for a kiss and when she negs you, I'd say something along the lines of "I hope you don't expect me to put up with this nonsense for much longer, because this is getting old." Then the next day if I got negged, I'd just smile and say "ok" and disappear until 1am. Do that for a few days in a row, and I guarantee you'll get a response.
When that response comes, I'd use it as an opportunity to put another move on her. "You don't like me going out, why don't you get naked?" 

No response, you can be absolutely certain that she has ZERO intentions of making the marriage work.


----------



## MEM2020

Wilderness,
The approach you suggested feels more aggressive than assertive. 

Aggression is often driven by anger that is fueled by fear. And that doesn't work as well as being assertive in a marriage. 

Besides, it makes it way easier for him to end it with a clean conscience. Because the real issue isn't sex. And a rejected back massage will highlight that very clearly. 

FYI: Based on my prior experience, he absolutely will not ask he for a massage. Because when she says 'no' to that, he will have his answer. And he really doesn't want to know. 


QUOTE=wilderness;5237130][/QUOTE]

With all due respect, I don't agree that putting the moves on a woman daily is necessarily needy or weak. It's all in how it's framed. At this point, I'd just go in for a kiss and when she negs you, I'd say something along the lines of "I hope you don't expect me to put up with this nonsense for much longer, because this is getting old." Then the next day if I got negged, I'd just smile and say "ok" and disappear until 1am. Do that for a few days in a row, and I guarantee you'll get a response.
When that response comes, I'd use it as an opportunity to put another move on her. "You don't like me going out, why don't you get naked?" 

No response, you can be absolutely certain that she has ZERO intentions of making the marriage work.[/QUOTE]


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## wilderness

MEM11363 said:


> Wilderness,
> The approach you suggested feels more aggressive than assertive.
> 
> Aggression is often driven by anger that is fueled by fear. And that doesn't work as well as being assertive in a marriage.
> 
> Besides, it makes it way easier for him to end it with a clean conscience. Because the real issue isn't sex. And a rejected back massage will highlight that very clearly.
> 
> FYI: Based on my prior experience, he absolutely will not ask he for a massage. Because when she says 'no' to that, he will have his answer. And he really doesn't want to know.
> 
> 
> QUOTE=wilderness;5237130]




To be honest I kind of like the idea of asking for a back massage as well. Reason being if she says no there is almost no point to go through all the stuff that I suggested, anyway! Because I agree, if she won't even do that, it's time to hang em up.


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## cdbaker

I am reading all of these posts and considering. I agree that I need to up the pressure, though I don't think it should be for sex right away. I also agree that I don't want to get another baby involved until things are improved relationally. I never intended to consider another pregnancy until that was resolved in some way.

I think I saw it like this:

Move back in -> Take time to get comfortable with one another & rebuild trust -> Date each other again -> Let sex life rebuild naturally -> Then consider family growth.

We're just stuck at the "Getting comfortable and rebuilding trust" stage. In fact, the other day I noticed that she has password protected her computer. I don't know if I have ever explicitly said that I expect that we won't lock down our devices like that anymore, but I've certainly implied it. I intend to confront her about this soon. I keep my eyes open, I check into things from time to time, and I know what kind of signs to look for, and I don't believe she is "cheating" on me in any way, but password protecting her computer when she has never needed to do so before is a big red flag. I know our daughter has tried to use her computer from time to time when her own little laptop runs out of battery and my wife hates that, so it is VERY possible that she just locked it up in order to make my daughter be more responsible with her own stuff. When I bring it up, if that isn't her only excuse, then we'll have a problem.

Incidentally, I did ask her for a shoulder/neck massage the other night and she was willing to do so, but begrudgingly. Maybe because I asked after she was already rolled over in bed. Another area where I asserted myself successfully was over the weekend where she told me to bring a 2nd blanket/comforter to bed for myself, because she supposedly had gotten used to sleeping alone last winter and now doesn't like to share a blanket, no matter how large. I saw that as her trying to add even more physical separation between her and I. I told her that we have a king size bed with king size sheets/blankets that are plenty big for both of us. I said she knows that I am not a "blanket hog" in the slightest, and that I'm not comfortable with there being even more barriers between her and I, implying that if she wants to sleep with a king size blanket to herself, that either she or I will just sleep on the couch instead. That was a little over a week ago and she hasn't mentioned the issue since, or tried to change the bed/blanket arrangements.

On nearly a daily basis now, I spend a good chunk of time lamenting my situation. And unfortunately, today is our ten year anniversary. Yeah we got married on Halloween. We're not creepy goth people or anything like that either. We were just told ten years ago at the last minute that our new apartment would be ready for move-in the very next day, nov. 1st, and that if we didn't sign for it immediately, that we would be moved to the bottom of the waiting list and it would be months before we'd moved back to the top. So we called the pastor and had a quickie wedding with just our parents/siblings so that we would be married when we moved in together, and then had our wedding two months later just before Christmas. Anyway, she told me a couple of weeks ago that she didn't want to make a big deal of the anniversary, and that we aren't relationally "there" yet. I agreed with her, but just to be safe I did wake up early to go buy her favorite breakfast and delivered it (along with a nice card) to her in bed before taking our daughter to school.

On one hand, I'm bummed that she didn't want to make a bigger deal of it, and that makes me question her dedication. On the other hand, maybe I should be happy that she doesn't expect me to spend a ton of money on her right now, especially when the future is such a giant question mark.


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## MEM2020

CD,
Locked devices with a cheating spouses are a perfect example of where to convey and enforce a boundary. 

The boundary is simple: I will not remain in a marriage with a known cheater unless they are fully agreeable to providing complete transparency.

Fully agreeable means:
- They understand and accept that THEIR cheating has reduced YOUR trust. 
- They see transparency as a means of making amends for their prior breach and deception.

They don't accuse you of:
- Being controlling 
- Invading their privacy
- Crowding them

Most important BY FAR is that they don't resist the following sequence of events.
You: explain your need and ask them to provide their passwords and devices for a spot check. 
They: Calmly and immediately comply 

If they resist/refuse to a 'spot check' they are definitely hiding stuff up to and including a full fledged sexually active affair. 

If they create a fight and attack you for not 'trusting', them and then 'give in' the next day you can be sure they scrubbed their accounts clean of the evidence and called their affair partner to warn them. 

If they suddenly desperately need to go to the bathroom and take their phone, they are scrubbing. 




QUOTE=cdbaker;5247666]I am reading all of these posts and considering. I agree that I need to up the pressure, though I don't think it should be for sex right away. I also agree that I don't want to get another baby involved until things are improved relationally. I never intended to consider another pregnancy until that was resolved in some way.

I think I saw it like this:

Move back in -> Take time to get comfortable with one another & rebuild trust -> Date each other again -> Let sex life rebuild naturally -> Then consider family growth.

We're just stuck at the "Getting comfortable and rebuilding trust" stage. In fact, the other day I noticed that she has password protected her computer. I don't know if I have ever explicitly said that I expect that we won't lock down our devices like that anymore, but I've certainly implied it. I intend to confront her about this soon. I keep my eyes open, I check into things from time to time, and I know what kind of signs to look for, and I don't believe she is "cheating" on me in any way, but password protecting her computer when she has never needed to do so before is a big red flag. I know our daughter has tried to use her computer from time to time when her own little laptop runs out of battery and my wife hates that, so it is VERY possible that she just locked it up in order to make my daughter be more responsible with her own stuff. When I bring it up, if that isn't her only excuse, then we'll have a problem.

Incidentally, I did ask her for a shoulder/neck massage the other night and she was willing to do so, but begrudgingly. Maybe because I asked after she was already rolled over in bed. Another area where I asserted myself successfully was over the weekend where she told me to bring a 2nd blanket/comforter to bed for myself, because she supposedly had gotten used to sleeping alone last winter and now doesn't like to share a blanket, no matter how large. I saw that as her trying to add even more physical separation between her and I. I told her that we have a king size bed with king size sheets/blankets that are plenty big for both of us. I said she knows that I am not a "blanket hog" in the slightest, and that I'm not comfortable with there being even more barriers between her and I, implying that if she wants to sleep with a king size blanket to herself, that either she or I will just sleep on the couch instead. That was a little over a week ago and she hasn't mentioned the issue since, or tried to change the bed/blanket arrangements.

On nearly a daily basis now, I spend a good chunk of time lamenting my situation. And unfortunately, today is our ten year anniversary. Yeah we got married on Halloween. We're not creepy goth people or anything like that either. We were just told ten years ago at the last minute that our new apartment would be ready for move-in the very next day, nov. 1st, and that if we didn't sign for it immediately, that we would be moved to the bottom of the waiting list and it would be months before we'd moved back to the top. So we called the pastor and had a quickie wedding with just our parents/siblings so that we would be married when we moved in together, and then had our wedding two months later just before Christmas. Anyway, she told me a couple of weeks ago that she didn't want to make a big deal of the anniversary, and that we aren't relationally "there" yet. I agreed with her, but just to be safe I did wake up early to go buy her favorite breakfast and delivered it (along with a nice card) to her in bed before taking our daughter to school.

On one hand, I'm bummed that she didn't want to make a bigger deal of it, and that makes me question her dedication. On the other hand, maybe I should be happy that she doesn't expect me to spend a ton of money on her right now, especially when the future is such a giant question mark.[/QUOTE]


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## FeministInPink

cdbaker said:


> Incidentally, I did ask her for a shoulder/neck massage the other night and she was willing to do so, but begrudgingly. *Maybe because I asked after she was already rolled over in bed.*


Personally, this would have irritated me, too, if I was her. I would be thinking, "You have had ALL NIGHT to ask me for this, and you wait until NOW to ask? I need at least 7 hours of sleep to be functional at work tomorrow, and now I'm only going to get 6 hours because you want me to give you a freaking massage? Do you have any idea how inconsiderate and selfish you are to ask me this right now?" But I would do it because I wouldn't want to rock the boat.

My STBXH pulled stuff like this all the time (after he has spent HOURS ignoring me while he played video games), and it was a very passive-aggressive way for him to communicate that his time and his needs were more important than mine. (And he continued to do this time and again, even after I had explained to him multiple times why it bothered me, and offered alternate solutions.)

I'm not trying to come down on you here, or say that's what you're trying to do. I just wanted to let you know how she may view it. Timing is more important than most people (men?) realize or consider. 

:smthumbup:


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## LongWalk

I think we understand why you want her back. You love her and find her attractive. You also feel guilt about your past performance as her husband and you'd somehow like to make it up to her.

But what does she want from you? Comfort, income, security? Yes. Sex, affection and intimacy, no. Is she masturbating? Ask her how long she can go on being celibate?

Soon she will get her nursing degree right? If she gets a job in hospital with irregular hours, the opportunities to cheat are exciting. Sneaking into rooms that can be locked for a quickie, etc. Do you even want to monitor a wife in such an environment?

I would wait until she gets a job and has establish income, then I would file for divorce and 180 her. If she wants to save your marriage at that point and is initiating sex you can put the divorce on hold, heck they don't go through right away in any event.

While you are waiting, employ your sense of humor to psyche yourself up to be happy joke and laugh as if you didn't have a care in the world. Play some kind of prank on. Make some chocolate pudding or cake mix and when it is done ask her to come over and help. Ask he to stick a finger out, take her hand and steer it in. Then take it and lick clean it off.

Smack you lips say it tasted good. Smile and say thanks. Ask her if she wants to taste it, pretend you're going to put her finger in again for her. If she reacts negatively to a bit of suggestive teasing, then she is really far away. But don't give up. Invite her to take a bath or shower. 

If it doesn't work let go for a day, but come up with something new day three. Pick up the pace. Let her know that seduction is in the air.

Maybe you can recall some memorable time that you had sex before everything went to the dogs. In bed firmly but gently spoon her and take her through how hot she was.

Don't whatever you do show that you a bummed out by rejection. Pretend you know you are going to succeed in the end because confidence is sexy. Don't let her assign you to the rejection bin.

Did you ever have sex toys? Buy a vibrator and buy some sexy underwear for her. Wrap the vibrator up in the undies. Get it gift wrapped. The next time you are unpacking groceries sneak into the bag. Maybe in the car on the way home. Let her discover it, WTF is this? Play dumb.

Maybe these ideas seem corny. But you need make the atmosphere light hearted. You need to make her laugh. If she never laughs and is permanently unapproachable, at some point you must throw in the towel.


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## FeministInPink

:iagree:

Great suggestions, LongWalk.


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## Really!?!?

MEM11363 said:


> Problem is, your wife is getting the whole package right now without having to give anything. She has little to no incentive to change.


Sounds very familiar. Keep an eye on this,..... you are still a family, so she probably see's nothing wrong with living with her family,... but not engaging in your marriage. That is no way to have a marriage,.... so keep an eye on whether things seem to improve, or stay stagnant.


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## firebelly1

wilderness said:


> To CD:
> Put the moves on her and when she shoots you down or tries to shame you into backing off, don't back down. There is nothing to be ashamed of...it is perfectly normal and healthy to expect sex from your wife. Period.


Wilderness...you realize rape is rape right? Even if you're married? People have a right to expect sex n a marriage, they don't have a right to force or extort it.


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## remorseful strayer

CD:

I am concerned about you. It is so obvious you want your marriage to work out, but it is not so obvious that your wife does. 

That does not mean that she doesn't want things to work out. It could be that she is seriously depressed or has some other emotional health issue. 

Still, for your own emotional health you need to find out what her intentions are. 

Is she in it for the long haul trying to save the marriage and just taking it slow. 

Or, is she still deciding.

You have the right to know. 

Also, locked phone or computer is not GOOD sign. It may well be innocent, but given as she has cheated, she needs to WILLINGLY be an open book to you. 

Can you find a qualified infidelity counselor. 

It took me 15 interviews before I found an experienced infidelity counselor. 

I am a neuro psychiatrist. I study the physical function of the brain, so although not a talk therapist, I did know a lot of them, and it still took me 15 tries to find a good counselor. 

A counselor experienced in infidelity and/or sex addiction is a must in your situation. 

Can you afford counseling?

Your wife needs to start compromising. A counselor can help her see that, IMO.

Also you need to lobby for the sex issue. I am not advocating rape, but she needs to understand that for a successful marital bond, you to need to start easing back into sex.


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## sammy3

My husband and I have been estranged from each other for over two years. We talk on a daily base. We are starting mc again,& me ic. I have been married to this man for 27 year, and pretty much had sex 2 to 3 times a week throughout our marriage. 

We are just in the early stages of seeing if we can get back together, and there is no way am I having sex with this man until I am ready. I realize, my husband the ww where op wife was. But, all the talk in the world isnt going to get wife to give other than duty sex, until she feels ready. 

~sammy


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## MEM2020

Sammy,
Do I understand correctly that your H was the cheater? 

If so, would you allow him to move back in and deny you transparency by keeping his phone and computer locked down? 


QUOTE=sammy3;5288633]My husband and I have been estranged from each other for over two years. We talk on a daily base. We are starting mc again,& me ic. I have been married to this man for 27 year, and pretty much had sex 2 to 3 times a week throughout our marriage. 

We are just in the early stages of seeing if we can get back together, and there is no way am I having sex with this man until I am ready. I realize, my husband the ww where op wife was. But, all the talk in the world isnt going to get wife to give other than duty sex, until she feels ready. 

~sammy[/QUOTE]


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## sammy3

Yes, I would, because I buy into amp, lord, etc... If he's going to cheap again, he's going to cheat again. We all need privacy, me included. I'm not going to give transparency either. We respected each other's space before, I'm not not giving it up mine now for his...

See, this is another lose-lose for the bs... Yes, we get to give the gife of R but its at a steep cost to the bs. I just wish mine never wanted to come back, never wanted to try to work at the marriage,never showed remorse,never believe we'll get through this,never was sorry,never realized what he was doing was wrong, wish he had just stayed w the ow and lived happily ever after, and maybe then, I could too.

~sammy


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## MEM2020

Sammy,
Sorry to hear that your recon is not at a good place right now. All I can say is that if my W had a PA, and then stated that she wanted to recon, came home and was avoiding all physical contact, there is no way I would tolerate a refusal to provide transparency. 

The red flags on this thread are all consistent. She can't admit fault/apologize because it 'hurts to much'? 

I have a huge amount of respect for Amp. He is tough, strong, resourceful and determined. 

He was the 'adult', in the recon. And there must be at least one. This is what I mean by that: He fixed his stuff first, and only the did he gradually but firmly apply pressure. 

And at least twice, he showed the courage needed to risk losing the marriage, in an attempt to save the marriage. 

I don't actually recall how he discovered that his W had reconnected with her EA, and was in a false recon. 





sammy3 said:


> Yes, I would, because I buy into amp, lord, etc... If he's going to cheap again, he's going to cheat again. We all need privacy, me included. I'm not going to give transparency either. We respected each other's space before, I'm not not giving it up mine now for his...
> 
> See, this is another lose-lose for the bs... Yes, we get to give the gife of R but its at a steep cost to the bs. I just wish mine never wanted to come back, never wanted to try to work at the marriage,never showed remorse,never believe we'll get through this,never was sorry,never realized what he was doing was wrong, wish he had just stayed w the ow and lived happily ever after, and maybe then, I could too.
> 
> ~sammy


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## sammy3

Ive been married for almost 30 years now, and feel lucky that I had that as many here dont even see 10 yrs. ((because they were really good years until 9-11 came along)) 

If we make it back after almost 3 yrs away, its because its ok. We'll make it work. But I'm not going to be his policewomen,nor he mine. No thank you, I've already raised a son.

We've lost so much already that if the passwords are going to be that big of a deal well then what's the use? He knows he's very lucky his family is still even speaking with him, and if we return and he's going to continue to be an a**, well, I'm smarter now, and he knows it... "Fool me once shame on me, fool me twice, shame on you."

~sammy


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## cdbaker

FeministInPink said:


> Personally, this would have irritated me, too, if I was her. I would be thinking, "You have had ALL NIGHT to ask me for this, and you wait until NOW to ask? I need at least 7 hours of sleep to be functional at work tomorrow, and now I'm only going to get 6 hours because you want me to give you a freaking massage? Do you have any idea how inconsiderate and selfish you are to ask me this right now?" But I would do it because I wouldn't want to rock the boat.
> 
> My STBXH pulled stuff like this all the time (after he has spent HOURS ignoring me while he played video games), and it was a very passive-aggressive way for him to communicate that his time and his needs were more important than mine. (And he continued to do this time and again, even after I had explained to him multiple times why it bothered me, and offered alternate solutions.)
> 
> I'm not trying to come down on you here, or say that's what you're trying to do. I just wanted to let you know how she may view it. Timing is more important than most people (men?) realize or consider.
> 
> :smthumbup:


Yep, I totally understand. I'd say our situation was a bit different because I have asked for things like that before during otherwise "opportune" times and gotten the same response. In this case too, we were laying there talking about something and my neck popped loud enough that she could hear it too. That inspired me to ask. But yes, I definitely see your point.


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## cdbaker

MEM11363 said:


> Sammy,
> Sorry to hear that your recon is not at a good place right now. All I can say is that if my W had a PA, and then stated that she wanted to recon, came home and was avoiding all physical contact, there is no way I would tolerate a refusal to provide transparency.
> 
> The red flags on this thread are all consistent. She can't admit fault/apologize because it 'hurts to much'?
> 
> I have a huge amount of respect for Amp. He is tough, strong, resourceful and determined.
> 
> He was the 'adult', in the recon. And there must be at least one. This is what I mean by that: He fixed his stuff first, and only the did he gradually but firmly apply pressure.
> 
> And at least twice, he showed the courage needed to risk losing the marriage, in an attempt to save the marriage.
> 
> I don't actually recall how he discovered that his W had reconnected with her EA, and was in a false recon.


MEM & Others: Thank you for the kind words, and I do have an update.

For starters, the locked computer. Turns out she locked the computer because she was tired of our daughter taking it, using it, and then leaving it somewhere where my wife can't find it and often with the battery nearly dead, and sometimes finding that some important school document that she was working on is gone. We gave our daughter my wife's old laptop and she is allowed to use that one, but she is terrible about putting it back on the charger when she is finished, so often times would just take the wife's new laptop. This is what she told me when I brought up the password on her computer, and she shared the password with me, which turned out is the same password that we usually use when we are securing a device from our daughter. (My tablet has the same lock/password on it for the same reason) So I'm thoroughly convinced for now that this was not her attempt to hide anything. Thus far, she has never once tried to stop me or express concern when I have asked to use her computer. (Her laptop is pretty new, mine is six years old and chained to a desk in our basement so when I seldom need an internet device with a keyboard, I ussually just use hers)

I'm not sure which part of my story you are referring to about her reconnecting with her EA... I believe all of my wife's affairs were physical, not EA only. I also frequently number them out of order, especially since I found out about the first one about 18 months after it happened, and 3-6 months after I found out about the 2nd and 3rd. I found out about the 2nd by checking her computer, the 3rd and 4th by checking her phone. 

Thus far, I have never seen a password of any kind on her phone. Further, she knows that once upon a time I had put a keylogger on her computer and tried to put on one her phone, which I agree was taking it a little too far. She trusts me now with her devices as it relates to that. But with that said, I still agree with Sammy's approach above. If she wants to cheat, she'll find a way to cheat. Whether I catch it immediately or a few weeks down the road, it doesn't make much difference. Living in a "surveillance" marriage can only go on for so long before everyone involved is resentful of each other and it's certainly not conducive to rebuilding love/trust. Secretly locked devices are completely different of course, as has been noted, but I think I've found a comfortable position in the middle as far as transparency.


A couple months ago I read "Married Man's Sex Primer 2011" which was a fantastic read that I recommend to anyone. In the past, I have read tons of other marriage books from the Five Love Languages to Love & Respect, to saving broken marriages books like Love Must Be Tough, Winning your Wife Back, I Don't Want a Divorce, etc. This past week I finally started reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and it too is a winner as far as I can see. I'm exactly 44% through it according to my kindle, and I am already seeing a lot of value in it. I think for men in my position, NMMNG and the Married Man's Sex Primer 2011 standard reading assignments. 

I think No More Mr. Nice Guy describes me well, as far as my feeling a need to be the "perfect man" for any woman, mostly based on what men have been told by women since the beginning of time. In Married Man's Sex Primer, we learn that women don't REALLY want the "perfect men" they often describe. They want that at times, and other times they want the classical Alpha male that is so often ostracized, and it's our job to be able to switch between the two. It also describes how "Nice Guys" will often go after women who are "damaged goods," such as victims of abuse, poor childhoods, no father, etc. Looking back at my wife and girlfriends before her, most of them grew up without much of a father figure, maybe had been raped or worse, my wife had a baby that she gave up for adoption when she was 16, etc. I have also definitely had a habit of covering up my mistakes, telling white lies to get out of a situation that might make me look bad, and resented her enormously for not putting in the kind of effort that I have put in. The "Covert contracts" bit was pretty interesting as well, which I'm sure I have employed many times, with the current example being my "no sex" assurance that I made to her, with the "unspoken but generally hinted at" end of the year timeframe.

Anyways, I'm going to keep reading the book. I also told her today that I believe we need to combine our finances in some form. I have known lots of couples who mostly manage separate finances, and we did it that way for the first few years of our marriage until my wife had trouble avoiding overdrafts on her account and we combined our finances with my bank. Right now though, I pay the mortgage, all of the bills, groceries, I usually pay when we eat out, plus the usual other stuff I need like gas for my car, occasional lunches, etc. From what I can tell, my wife pays for her own usual stuff (gas, lunches, etc.), most of my daughter's Boys & Girls club fee's (about $25/week) and the rest is sort of her "fun money", which admittedly often gets spent on stuff for the house, not just for her. 

Nonetheless, I often struggle to get everything paid that needs paid, and frequently get creditor phone calls that stress me out. Not long before she moved back home in June, we discussed finances and she said very firmly that she was not willing to combine finances again because, as with sex, she wasn't at a place where she could trust me fully just yet. She wanted to maintain that small element of independence. Yesterday she told me about a whole bunch of school fee's and payments that are due really soon that she doesn't have the money for and is stressed. She didn't ask me for the money specifically, but that was clearly the reason for telling me the situation and describing her stress. I told her that if those things need paid, we can get them paid (with my meager savings) but at this point I'll need to insist that we combine our finances "in some form" going forward. That could mean going back to us just sharing one checking & savings account ideally, or I might even be comfortable with keeping the separate accounts as long as I have access to her account as well. (She already has access to mine, I gave it to her months ago, in typical "Nice Guy" fashion hoping it would get her to share her account access with me as well)

We'll see what happens. She did say "Love you" when she gave me a hug goodbye this morning, but I can't dwell on that.


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## wilderness

Dude-

If you are paying all of the bills your situation is a lot worse than I originally thought. No way would I pay for her school stuff as long as she is not having sex with you.


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## FeministInPink

cdbaker said:


> Anyways, I'm going to keep reading the book. I also told her today that I believe we need to combine our finances in some form. I have known lots of couples who mostly manage separate finances, and we did it that way for the first few years of our marriage until my wife had trouble avoiding overdrafts on her account and we combined our finances with my bank. Right now though, I pay the mortgage, all of the bills, groceries, I usually pay when we eat out, plus the usual other stuff I need like gas for my car, occasional lunches, etc. From what I can tell, my wife pays for her own usual stuff (gas, lunches, etc.), most of my daughter's Boys & Girls club fee's (about $25/week) and the rest is sort of her "fun money", which admittedly often gets spent on stuff for the house, not just for her.
> 
> Nonetheless, I often struggle to get everything paid that needs paid, and frequently get creditor phone calls that stress me out. Not long before she moved back home in June, we discussed finances and she said very firmly that she was not willing to combine finances again because, as with sex, she wasn't at a place where she could trust me fully just yet. She wanted to maintain that small element of independence. Yesterday she told me about a whole bunch of school fee's and payments that are due really soon that she doesn't have the money for and is stressed. She didn't ask me for the money specifically, but that was clearly the reason for telling me the situation and describing her stress. I told her that if those things need paid, we can get them paid (with my meager savings) but at this point I'll need to insist that we combine our finances "in some form" going forward. That could mean going back to us just sharing one checking & savings account ideally, or I might even be comfortable with keeping the separate accounts as long as I have access to her account as well. (She already has access to mine, I gave it to her months ago, in typical "Nice Guy" fashion hoping it would get her to share her account access with me as well)


You guys need to have a joint account, at least for the joint expenses -- she's been moved back in now for how long? Anything relating to the kids should come out of the joint account; it's unfair if one parent or the other is paying more than their fair share (or even THINKS that s/he is paying more than the fair share), and that will breed resentment.

Even if not going fully joint, you guys need to sit down and draw up a budget and determine how much each of you will put into the joint account, and nothing comes out that isn't budgeted. And you can each maintain separate accounts to maintain independence. This is how a lot of couples do it.

There's no reason that one or the other of you is getting stressed out over things that should be joint expenditures, especially if together you have enough money to cover the expenses. 

Honestly, the two of you should have talked about this months ago before/when she moved back in. The Money Talk is one of the most important discussion a couple can have when moving in together, whether it's after a separation, or if it's a couple just moving in together for the first time.

PS And you have to decide firmly what is a joint expense and what is not. I'm with wilderness, I don't think HER school expenses should be joint. The first time I read that, I thought it was for the kids.


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## cdbaker

Just to clarify on the expenses stuff:

We've never been great with budgeting. We have some CC debt and student loans that we've struggled with, but we've never really had a budget at all. So just FYI, we're already starting from a place of poor money skills.

Next, my wife only works part time while she is in school full time. She probably averages about 8-12 hours a week at $16/hr (before taxes) as an LPN at a nursing home. So you add that up and it's only about $450 - $600 or so per month after taxes. From that she pays her own gas to and from school/clinicals (about 30 miles each way) and work, lunches for herself, our daughters boys & girls club fees, and is regularly getting things for the house. (Lately she's been buying picture frames and hanging family photos all over this wall in our living room, there are probably 50 of them so far) Plus other occasional purchases like shoes, scrubs, miscellaneous stuff our daughter needs for school, etc. Take all of that out, and there isn't much left from her $450-$600/mo. So my point in the last post wasn't that I think she is hoarding her money and refusing to help out. I make 4-5x what she makes. My concern has been that I don't think there should be any such thing as "my" money or "her" money, it should be OURS, and we should both be responsible and accountable to each other with how it is spent. And yes, it bothers me when I can't pay a $100 electric bill and I see her walk in with 10 new picture frames and a new pair of running shoes for $100. It's not that she she is spending wastefully or extravagantly or anything like that. I don't think there is anything with her getting a $50 pair of shoes and a bunch of picture frames for our wall, and she wouldn't have made those purchases if she knew that I was struggling with the electric bill. So that part is on ME for not making those needs clear, but it does make me feel extremely uncomfortable having to express that I don't have the money to pay a particular bill, but I don't think I should have to ask her for money either. If we can merge and the decide together what our expenses will be, then it doesn't have to be an issue going forward.

And heck, I know that I could use some additional accountability too. I ordered a new Xbox game last week for $30 when I have several that I haven't played yet, and I have bills due this week that I might not be able to cover without dipping into savings. That's not responsible, and I know that I wouldn't have done it if I knew that my wife kept a close eye on the account too. Personal responsibility and accountability are always good things.

Lastly, for the most part I think 95% of her school expenses have been getting paid for with her student loans (which are in her name only. That's relevant in the event of a divorce), which while we were separated, she unfortunately was taking out the maximum amount in order to live off of. (In the beginning of the separation I had wondered how she was able to so quickly afford to go get an apartment and live comfortably only working 15hrs/week at $9.50/hr. Now I know...) Whenever random non-tuition/books expenses would pop up, she would pay for them. Once she moved back home, she discussed with me the financial aid situation for this year (which I greatly appreciated her involving me in) and we decided that we didn't need to take out the maximum loan amount and would only take the small grant she got and a small loan to cover the tuition/books.

Not everything goes according to plan however. She found out after the fact that the second segment of her semester requires about $325 in supplies for her clinicals and testing that were not included in the school bill she had received in August. Then she decided she wants to take a Kaplan training course to prepare her for the NCLEX state testing (for nursing certification) which is $379, then has about $100 worth of expenses for her graduation gown, school photos, nursing pin, etc. We didn't account for those when we took the student loan/grant, so they need paid, and I have absolutely no problem helping to pay for these things as they are all perfectly valid. My issue is that I don't feel comfortable paying for these from what has been my own savings that I worked hard for, when I don't also have any way of knowing what her own financial picture looks like. So we've had separate finances all this time, and if she wants my help with MY money, then I feel that we need to merge finances and both be accountable to each other. 

So that is pretty much what I proposed today. That I understand why she was hesitant to merge finances at the beginning but enough time has passed that we need to get this figured out. For the sake of making smarter financial decisions, reducing stress/conflict, and as a further show of commitment/trust.

Lastly, I will disagree with you both (feminist and Wilderness) as it relates to a spouses school expenses being considered a "joint" expense or not. A spouse going to school to provide for a better life for his/her family should be a joint expense if you ask me, especially if part of the arrangement has been that one spouse will work full time while the other spouse focuses on school full time. (Meaning the student spouse probably can't afford the expenses alone anyway) If we were separated, I might agree that the expense should be hers alone depending on the circumstances of the separation. If we head down the divorce trail someday, then I would agree then as well. There is also the fact that back when I was getting my degree, we did have merged finances and we did pay for my school expenses from that, so in that sense she has already chipped in for my schooling.


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## cdbaker

Geez guys I'm so sorry that my posts are always so darn wordy. I do honestly try to cut them down, just not very well apparently. I always appreciate all the advice, thoughts, comments, etc. that I receive. You guys, and this forum, is awesome. Thanks again and as always, apologies for the insane length of my posts!


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## Oblivious2678

Don't apologize. This is your life, your marriage, your story. Every detail counts. Stay strong bud.


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## wilderness

cdbaker said:


> Just to clarify on the expenses stuff:
> 
> We've never been great with budgeting. We have some CC debt and student loans that we've struggled with, but we've never really had a budget at all. So just FYI, we're already starting from a place of poor money skills.
> 
> Next, my wife only works part time while she is in school full time. She probably averages about 8-12 hours a week at $16/hr (before taxes) as an LPN at a nursing home. So you add that up and it's only about $450 - $600 or so per month after taxes. From that she pays her own gas to and from school/clinicals (about 30 miles each way) and work, lunches for herself, our daughters boys & girls club fees, and is regularly getting things for the house. (Lately she's been buying picture frames and hanging family photos all over this wall in our living room, there are probably 50 of them so far) Plus other occasional purchases like shoes, scrubs, miscellaneous stuff our daughter needs for school, etc. Take all of that out, and there isn't much left from her $450-$600/mo. So my point in the last post wasn't that I think she is hoarding her money and refusing to help out. I make 4-5x what she makes. My concern has been that I don't think there should be any such thing as "my" money or "her" money, it should be OURS, and we should both be responsible and accountable to each other with how it is spent. And yes, it bothers me when I can't pay a $100 electric bill and I see her walk in with 10 new picture frames and a new pair of running shoes for $100. It's not that she she is spending wastefully or extravagantly or anything like that. I don't think there is anything with her getting a $50 pair of shoes and a bunch of picture frames for our wall, and she wouldn't have made those purchases if she knew that I was struggling with the electric bill. So that part is on ME for not making those needs clear, but it does make me feel extremely uncomfortable having to express that I don't have the money to pay a particular bill, but I don't think I should have to ask her for money either. If we can merge and the decide together what our expenses will be, then it doesn't have to be an issue going forward.
> 
> And heck, I know that I could use some additional accountability too. I ordered a new Xbox game last week for $30 when I have several that I haven't played yet, and I have bills due this week that I might not be able to cover without dipping into savings. That's not responsible, and I know that I wouldn't have done it if I knew that my wife kept a close eye on the account too. Personal responsibility and accountability are always good things.
> 
> Lastly, for the most part I think 95% of her school expenses have been getting paid for with her student loans (which are in her name only. That's relevant in the event of a divorce), which while we were separated, she unfortunately was taking out the maximum amount in order to live off of. (In the beginning of the separation I had wondered how she was able to so quickly afford to go get an apartment and live comfortably only working 15hrs/week at $9.50/hr. Now I know...) Whenever random non-tuition/books expenses would pop up, she would pay for them. Once she moved back home, she discussed with me the financial aid situation for this year (which I greatly appreciated her involving me in) and we decided that we didn't need to take out the maximum loan amount and would only take the small grant she got and a small loan to cover the tuition/books.
> 
> Not everything goes according to plan however. She found out after the fact that the second segment of her semester requires about $325 in supplies for her clinicals and testing that were not included in the school bill she had received in August. Then she decided she wants to take a Kaplan training course to prepare her for the NCLEX state testing (for nursing certification) which is $379, then has about $100 worth of expenses for her graduation gown, school photos, nursing pin, etc. We didn't account for those when we took the student loan/grant, so they need paid, and I have absolutely no problem helping to pay for these things as they are all perfectly valid. My issue is that I don't feel comfortable paying for these from what has been my own savings that I worked hard for, when I don't also have any way of knowing what her own financial picture looks like. So we've had separate finances all this time, and if she wants my help with MY money, then I feel that we need to merge finances and both be accountable to each other.
> 
> So that is pretty much what I proposed today. That I understand why she was hesitant to merge finances at the beginning but enough time has passed that we need to get this figured out. For the sake of making smarter financial decisions, reducing stress/conflict, and as a further show of commitment/trust.
> 
> Lastly, I will disagree with you both (feminist and Wilderness) as it relates to a spouses school expenses being considered a "joint" expense or not. A spouse going to school to provide for a better life for his/her family should be a joint expense if you ask me, especially if part of the arrangement has been that one spouse will work full time while the other spouse focuses on school full time. (Meaning the student spouse probably can't afford the expenses alone anyway) If we were separated, I might agree that the expense should be hers alone depending on the circumstances of the separation. If we head down the divorce trail someday, then I would agree then as well. There is also the fact that back when I was getting my degree, we did have merged finances and we did pay for my school expenses from that, so in that sense she has already chipped in for my schooling.


IMO merging finances in the way you describe is a good idea for a traditionally married couple. Problem is, your wife is blatantly refusing to have sex with you after having 4 affairs. Not only would I not pay for her school stuff, I would be expecting 50% of the money for the household expenses if I were you. How much money she makes or doesn't make is her problem, not yours. Why should you have to cover her end?
Your wife is getting pretty much a free ride and as such has little incentive to change. I wouldn't make things easier if I were you, I'd make things much tougher.


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## LongWalk

Four affairs and she returns. Why? Does she feel some deep connection with you, something deeper than love? What is it?

Are you like two trees that have grown together? Some couples are so intertwined that when one dies the other soon follows. Maybe they stopped having sex 20 years ago and never spoke of it.

Some couples are alcoholics together. There are all sorts of marriages. 

You have some sort hope.what is hers?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## cdbaker

Before I respond, an update:

I had a really good, genuine talk with her last night. That is somewhat rare in and of itself because I know that she has a huge fear/dislike of feeling like she has done something wrong, is in "trouble" or has failed in some capacity, and avoids deeper conversations when she can because of that. First, we discussed finances. I told her pretty much what I said I would in my last post, that I understood her concerns/fears of merging finances in the spring/early summer as we were just coming back together, but now we need to be in the same boat financially. Again she doesn't make much via her part time job (<$500/mo) and I see how she spends that money and I haven't seen her make a single purchase since she moved back in June that I would classify as "extravagant" or "wreckless" or anything like that. Just gasoline, food, picture frames for our living room, school fee's for her and our daughter, school lunches for our daughter, etc. So I explained that I'm not trying to say that I think she is irresponsible with her money, nor am I simply trying to gain access to her money. I simply believe that all of our financial resources need to be combined, that we are all in the same boat together, aware of all of our expenses and purchases, and that there be no more "his money" or "her money". It would also be a big show of commitment to the marriage and relationship.

After I explained everything, she actually was pretty agreeable to it all. I also shared that I have occasionally had to stress over unpaid bills and such and I don't like feeling like I have to do that alone. She pointed out that this isn't her fault if I wasn't sharing that with her, and she's absolutely right. So the plan is that she'll switch her paycheck's auto-draft back over to my account (which really has always been "our" account. I just continued to use it as my own after she left, but her name is still on it as well) and she already has a check card for it and I'll order her some checks too. I also asked her if she could take over bill paying from that account, because I am terrible about staying on top of those.

(In case there is a concern about trust, I actually gave her a check card for the account four months ago when she moved back in. She's only used it twice I think and both times it was for gas or lunch or something when she called me and asked me first since her account was empty)

After that was all decided, I told her that as long as we are all in the same boat in every way (namely financially at the moment) that I consider her school expenses to be OUR expenses. As long as we're married and intend to stay that way (and yes I asked her to confirm that she still wants that), then her education is for the benefit of our whole family, so those expenses need to be paid one way or the other. (The total amount is somewhere in the neighborhood of $900 for testing materials, certifications, graduation gowns, a kaplan test prep course, etc.)

This convo then led to our discussing her future career desires and plans, and how those align with my own. She said she doesn't want to work nights and be away from us, that she wants to find a job close to mine (in the same city. I commute about 30 minutes away for work every day) so we can be close in case of emergencies and occasionally do lunches. She said that when we have another child or two, she might even want to only work half time if she can find such an arrangement. All good stuff to hear, but they are just words for the moment, I have to remember that.

Since we'd talked for a while already, I then decided to just share with her one more thing before saying goodnight that I think there are a lot of elements of our relationship that are moving in the right direction, but the big one that I feel has stagnated is our physical relationship. I clarified that I'm not simply demanding sex, but I am asking that she immediately increase her effort to be more physically affectionate. I said I'm not comfortable living like roommates long term, that I do expect that we'll be able to resume a sexual relationship before long, but that it can be a gradual process. I didn't phrase these statements as if I wanted to start a conversation, I simply wanted to restate them for her. She nodded and said she understood, reached over for a hug, said "I love you" and then rolled over to go to sleep.


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## tdwal

I sure hope this works out for you, I really do.


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## cdbaker

Wilderness: I think my approach has been that the past is the past. I did a lot of things wrong prior to and during our separation as well which I think I have detailed before. I've mentioned that I dated a ton of women during the separation, (probably 30-40 over a 2.5 year period) and slept with probably 15 or so of them, including several longer term relationships with a couple. We could argue the semantics of how wrong all of that was of course... yes it was cheating because I was still married (though I was always honest about that) but only after she cheated first and moved out with the guy whom she was living with. So how wrong was it? Depends on who you ask.

The bigger point though, is that she and I have forgiven each other for the past. As I understand and view forgiveness, it means I leave the past in the past, I do not bring it up again, I do not use it against her in the present or future, and therefore I certainly won't "make things much tougher" for her now as a result of her past grievances. I realize that forgiveness doesn't mean you forget the past, and that means I will certainly be slightly more vigilant for signs of cheating and things like that, but unless I were to find out that she has cheated again, I will not treat her any less than any wife deserves to be treated by her husband.

She is getting a "free ride" in so much as any "non-bread winner" spouse does. She helps with chores, she cooks several meals a week, helps with laundry, taking care of our daughter, the pets, etc. (Since she is in school full time and works 10 hours or so per week, vs. me only working full time, I probably do 60% of the housework to her 40%) Early in our marriage, she worked full time while I went to school full time and worked only part time, and the household arrangement was reversed. Was I getting a "free ride" then? I understand where you are coming from and appreciate the feedback (really I do. I'm not upset here, promise!) but if all is forgiven, then there is no free ride. As long as we are married and mutually intend to stay that way, then her schooling is an investment for our family. Not just for her, just as my education wasn't just for me.


Longwalk: That's tougher to anwer, but I do think she feels a deeper connection with me. Certainly we have a long history now, having been dating now since we were 17 years old (now 29 & 30) and have a 9 year old daughter together. She knows I'm a good man, a good father, and after the last three years or so, has come to believe that maybe I can be a good husband as well. Granted, she probably isn't very interested in the prospect of going out to find a new guy, given her past history with men always resulting in tragedy. So why did she want to come back? I imagine a year ago (which is roughly around when we went into "reconciliation mode") it was probably because she was just burned out from being hurt with the the last affair partner, realized that she was comfortable with me, had that history and child together, that I was willing to try reconciling, and that it was at least worth a shot. I'm not foolish enough to believe that she just decided that she really loved me and came rushing back home one day. I think for her, starting the process and even moving back home in June was probably a pretty non-emotional thing for her, more logical. If I had to guess, I would imagine this being her thought process at the time:

"I know I don't love him right now, he hurt and deceived and betrayed me terribly for years. I know I'm not really looking for any romantic entanglements right now either, I'm too busy and I'm utterly burned out from [OM's name] incredible betrayal, even if we were recently broken up. [cdbaker] has been showing (not just saying) that he realizes the things he did wrong and has shown that he's changed his attitude/perception a lot, so maybe he is capable of being a good husband after all. I already know he's a good father, provider, my family loves him, and of course we have our daughter, a home together, etc. Right now, I'm not particularly capable of loving him again just yet, but maybe if he can agree to take it slow and start down that road, things can come together and I could love him again. Or, maybe they don't work out and I'll never have to wonder 'what if?'"

Now, about a year later, I know she has felt moments of love and affection towards me. I know that she still holds back a lot of her though, most even, because of her fear of being hurt. She still struggles to allow herself to be vulnerable around me, and who could blame her? But little by little I DO see regular improvements/growth there.


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## MEM2020

CD,
If she won't agree to and stick to a budget where your:
- finances are combined and
- you both get an equal amount of discretionary spend

Then you are simply enabling more parasitism. 




cdbaker said:


> MEM & Others: Thank you for the kind words, and I do have an update.
> 
> For starters, the locked computer. Turns out she locked the computer because she was tired of our daughter taking it, using it, and then leaving it somewhere where my wife can't find it and often with the battery nearly dead, and sometimes finding that some important school document that she was working on is gone. We gave our daughter my wife's old laptop and she is allowed to use that one, but she is terrible about putting it back on the charger when she is finished, so often times would just take the wife's new laptop. This is what she told me when I brought up the password on her computer, and she shared the password with me, which turned out is the same password that we usually use when we are securing a device from our daughter. (My tablet has the same lock/password on it for the same reason) So I'm thoroughly convinced for now that this was not her attempt to hide anything. Thus far, she has never once tried to stop me or express concern when I have asked to use her computer. (Her laptop is pretty new, mine is six years old and chained to a desk in our basement so when I seldom need an internet device with a keyboard, I ussually just use hers)
> 
> I'm not sure which part of my story you are referring to about her reconnecting with her EA... I believe all of my wife's affairs were physical, not EA only. I also frequently number them out of order, especially since I found out about the first one about 18 months after it happened, and 3-6 months after I found out about the 2nd and 3rd. I found out about the 2nd by checking her computer, the 3rd and 4th by checking her phone.
> 
> Thus far, I have never seen a password of any kind on her phone. Further, she knows that once upon a time I had put a keylogger on her computer and tried to put on one her phone, which I agree was taking it a little too far. She trusts me now with her devices as it relates to that. But with that said, I still agree with Sammy's approach above. If she wants to cheat, she'll find a way to cheat. Whether I catch it immediately or a few weeks down the road, it doesn't make much difference. Living in a "surveillance" marriage can only go on for so long before everyone involved is resentful of each other and it's certainly not conducive to rebuilding love/trust. Secretly locked devices are completely different of course, as has been noted, but I think I've found a comfortable position in the middle as far as transparency.
> 
> 
> A couple months ago I read "Married Man's Sex Primer 2011" which was a fantastic read that I recommend to anyone. In the past, I have read tons of other marriage books from the Five Love Languages to Love & Respect, to saving broken marriages books like Love Must Be Tough, Winning your Wife Back, I Don't Want a Divorce, etc. This past week I finally started reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and it too is a winner as far as I can see. I'm exactly 44% through it according to my kindle, and I am already seeing a lot of value in it. I think for men in my position, NMMNG and the Married Man's Sex Primer 2011 standard reading assignments.
> 
> I think No More Mr. Nice Guy describes me well, as far as my feeling a need to be the "perfect man" for any woman, mostly based on what men have been told by women since the beginning of time. In Married Man's Sex Primer, we learn that women don't REALLY want the "perfect men" they often describe. They want that at times, and other times they want the classical Alpha male that is so often ostracized, and it's our job to be able to switch between the two. It also describes how "Nice Guys" will often go after women who are "damaged goods," such as victims of abuse, poor childhoods, no father, etc. Looking back at my wife and girlfriends before her, most of them grew up without much of a father figure, maybe had been raped or worse, my wife had a baby that she gave up for adoption when she was 16, etc. I have also definitely had a habit of covering up my mistakes, telling white lies to get out of a situation that might make me look bad, and resented her enormously for not putting in the kind of effort that I have put in. The "Covert contracts" bit was pretty interesting as well, which I'm sure I have employed many times, with the current example being my "no sex" assurance that I made to her, with the "unspoken but generally hinted at" end of the year timeframe.
> 
> Anyways, I'm going to keep reading the book. I also told her today that I believe we need to combine our finances in some form. I have known lots of couples who mostly manage separate finances, and we did it that way for the first few years of our marriage until my wife had trouble avoiding overdrafts on her account and we combined our finances with my bank. Right now though, I pay the mortgage, all of the bills, groceries, I usually pay when we eat out, plus the usual other stuff I need like gas for my car, occasional lunches, etc. From what I can tell, my wife pays for her own usual stuff (gas, lunches, etc.), most of my daughter's Boys & Girls club fee's (about $25/week) and the rest is sort of her "fun money", which admittedly often gets spent on stuff for the house, not just for her.
> 
> Nonetheless, I often struggle to get everything paid that needs paid, and frequently get creditor phone calls that stress me out. Not long before she moved back home in June, we discussed finances and she said very firmly that she was not willing to combine finances again because, as with sex, she wasn't at a place where she could trust me fully just yet. She wanted to maintain that small element of independence. Yesterday she told me about a whole bunch of school fee's and payments that are due really soon that she doesn't have the money for and is stressed. She didn't ask me for the money specifically, but that was clearly the reason for telling me the situation and describing her stress. I told her that if those things need paid, we can get them paid (with my meager savings) but at this point I'll need to insist that we combine our finances "in some form" going forward. That could mean going back to us just sharing one checking & savings account ideally, or I might even be comfortable with keeping the separate accounts as long as I have access to her account as well. (She already has access to mine, I gave it to her months ago, in typical "Nice Guy" fashion hoping it would get her to share her account access with me as well)
> 
> We'll see what happens. She did say "Love you" when she gave me a hug goodbye this morning, but I can't dwell on that.


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## cdbaker

MEM: I don't think that's been an issue thus far. In fact, aside from the two tiny transactions I mentioned above (maybe $6 for lunch and $20 for gas) I don't think she has spent any of my money and I would still be paying the same bills, mortgage payments, etc. whether she had moved back in or not. So she really hasn't cost me anything financially. (a few dollars a month on the water bill for showers maybe?)

Our understanding was that we would operate (financially) similar to how we did back before our separation. If it's a simple/necessary reoccuring expense, like if we need to get lunch during work, gas for the car once a week, groceries twice a month, etc., (stuff we can budget for in advance) then we need not inform each other. For anything else, we let each other know of our plan for the expense. Like if I need new work shoes or she needs a new set of scrubs, etc., just so we're accountable to each other and know what is going in and out.

So I don't think it's going to be an issue. Especially given the fact that if she wanted to spend "my" money selfishly/wrecklessly, well like I mentioned in my last post, she's been capable of doing so for about 5 months now since I gave her a debit card to "my" checking account. If she didn't do that before I had access to "her" money, then I don't see why she would do it once I do have it.


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## LongWalk

Sounds like you've made progress.

The pattern you describe – WAW wife has affairs to try and gain self affirmation and instead finds that OM are interested in sex rather than commitment – is not uncommon. Their hearts end up in limbo. Usually, the collapse of their normal lives has them in a frenzied state that borders on mental illness. Returning to the BH is a sort of solution.

The BS supplies two things: the stable life. Finances are often important but even the familar things. Blacksmith, another thread, remodeled their home's Florida room, which had been his WW's personal interior design project. She had already moved out but when exchanging the kids she saw this and it really shook her up. She is more or less a walking mental breakdown now.

Returning to the security your common life provides is something important to her and she has told herself she is willing to pay with her heart in her breast and the heart in her panties. But she wants that to happen naturally. She hates the idea of a mechanical transaction. Although logically that is deal, but then marriage is that deal to begin with anyways.

By telling her firmly but gently what you expect. She must feel a certain calm inside, she has to mow down the nettles and thorns that have overgrown her pubic area. Do you know when she horniest? Come with a date or some surprize.


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## cdbaker

Longwalk, you've caught my attention a bit with your post. I'll have to go look up this thread you are referring to, because I don't completely understand your summary.

I do think my wife felt good about my expectations last night after I properly set the tone of the conversation. (Establishing that I'm not angry or disappointed in her, I'm not trying to make her feel bad, I'm just wanting to establish my own expectations and would like to get her thoughts) Something a speaker I was listening to a few weeks ago also said something that keeps coming back to me as it relates to women and sex. He said that the longer men go without sex, the more we crave it. The longer women go without sex, the less they feel like they need it. I think that may be the case with my wife.

I'm no sexual slouch, I several, relatively tame fetishes and interests as much as any guy I think. But given that her last "OM" was an enormous pervert (extreme fantasies, role playing, toys, etc.) and I know that she participated in at least some of those things, I imagine it is very possible that I really don't know her sexual on's and off's anymore. Despite our best efforts, our own sexual interactions before the separation were almost completely vanilla, and since then she's been exposed to a lot of new things. So yeah, I'm been thinking about that too.

As far as dates or surprises, she seems to get very quickly uncomfortable at any mention of any idea/plan that might involve romance of any kind. Dates, going out alone, even suddenly realizing we are alone together in a moment and she seems to quickly put up her defenses. Short answers, finding a reason to separate, averting eye contact. Not in an angry or "I don't care for you" nonchalant way, but more of a "I'm concerned where this could lead to" way, if I had to try to put my finger on it.


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## sammy3

CD, 
I am watching closely as I may be walking the same path very soon. My issue too as your wife, the emotional intimacy. 

We had no where any others in our relationship as you had while we have been separated, at least I haven't. 

I too, to be honest, have been looking around at what the world looks like for me at my age, & at how many maybe good years I have left. Would another man be willing to love me into old age? Will I meet someone who I think is normal only to turn out not to be? Would my life be worst than what I am returning to? Men over 50, well... I just dont know what happens to them... Sorry guys!!! 

I've lived a really pretty good life with one person for so long, like your wife, at least I know my snake. Now, I just have to try to make the it work. 

Maybe you'll be one of those of us to make it to at least 30 yrs together, you sound like you want to! 

~sammy


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## sammy3

Double post


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## LongWalk

Interesting threads for you:

Lostlove
Blacksmith
Carlton
Hard to detach

If you can't find them, let me know.


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## angstire

cdbaker said:


> Not everything goes according to plan however. She found out after the fact that the second segment of her semester requires about $325 in supplies for her clinicals and testing that were not included in the school bill she had received in August. Then she decided she wants to take a Kaplan training course to prepare her for the NCLEX state testing (for nursing certification) which is $379, then has about $100 worth of expenses for her graduation gown, school photos, nursing pin, etc. We didn't account for those when we took the student loan/grant, so they need paid, and I have absolutely no problem helping to pay for these things as they are all perfectly valid. My issue is that I don't feel comfortable paying for these from what has been my own savings that I worked hard for, when I don't also have any way of knowing what her own financial picture looks like. So we've had separate finances all this time, and if she wants my help with MY money, then I feel that we need to merge finances and both be accountable to each other.
> 
> So that is pretty much what I proposed today. That I understand why she was hesitant to merge finances at the beginning but enough time has passed that we need to get this figured out. For the sake of making smarter financial decisions, reducing stress/conflict, and as a further show of commitment/trust.
> 
> Lastly, I will disagree with you both (feminist and Wilderness) as it relates to a spouses school expenses being considered a "joint" expense or not. A spouse going to school to provide for a better life for his/her family should be a joint expense if you ask me, especially if part of the arrangement has been that one spouse will work full time while the other spouse focuses on school full time. (Meaning the student spouse probably can't afford the expenses alone anyway) If we were separated, I might agree that the expense should be hers alone depending on the circumstances of the separation. If we head down the divorce trail someday, then I would agree then as well. There is also the fact that back when I was getting my degree, we did have merged finances and we did pay for my school expenses from that, so in that sense she has already chipped in for my schooling.


CDBaker, I will start by saying good for you on trying.

I will follow up by saying that everything I'm about to say is HEAVILY biased by the sh!tstorm that I'm emerging from in my 2nd divorce. Long story short, X2 left me after nursing school was done. She had been planning to for some time.

The things you said about tests, scrubs, etc. made me trigger a bit. I gladly paid for all this stuff because it was for us, for the future. Blah, blah, blah. My X2 didn't cheat, but she left me coldly as soon as she got what she wanted. And she was still having sex with me up until the day she told me we were done. She was planning to ambush me and I found out she was leaving by snooping through her computer.

Now, your situation is not my situation. I hope you have an R that succeeds. But it still sounds like she's in the driver's seat on your romantic relationship. Like she's afraid to commit to showing affection for you. Maybe that's a withered tree that's needs to be healed and regrown. Maybe she's getting what she wants from you in support (financial, emotional, shelter, etc.) until she can leave on her own once school is done.

If she leaves you, will you be ok with the money and effort you're putting in to support her going to school? If the answer is no, you're being a nice guy.

Is she keeping her finances separate so she doesn't have to separate them once she's done with school? You're paying for almost everything required to keep a house and she's getting closer and closer to that degree.

Now again, and obviously, my opinion on this is VERY biased. But, it's food for thought.

Good luck bro.


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## cdbaker

Angst, I'm sorry to hear about your situation, I know how awful that must have been. I'm sure her walking out was worse however given how cold it was, having planned it well in advance and being sexual/relational up until the very end. At least if that were to happen in my situation, it wouldn't be that much of a shock.

To answer a few of your questions, I haven't spent very much since she returned home that could be directly attributable to her. Meaning I was already paying the mortgage, the bills, the groceries, etc. 100% before she returned home after the separation. Plus I was paying 90% of our daughter's expenses as well, which the wife is now mostly taking care of. So up till now, the only additional expense has been... maybe slightly larger water and grocery bills? Minimal stuff.

As for the nursing stuff, even if the marriage were to ultimately go south, I won't be upset with myself for helping pay for her graduation gown and NCLEX prep stuff. I'm not wealthy by any stretch, I have horrible credit card debt, student loan debt, etc. but I really won't be upset if I end up chipping in $500 or so for those expenses, even if she were to walk out right after she graduates in about six weeks.

I also mentioned in a recent post that we are going to be combining finances again.


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## angstire

Thanks for the sympathy. It was a suck, but it's in the past now.

If you will be ok if she leaves after school, then sounds like you've got it covered. I hope that doesn't happen.

Best of luck.


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## firebelly1

The hugging and "I love you" are progress.


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## hopefulhubby

CD! CD! CD! OMG! OMG OMG!

I am going to be tough with you - as iron sharpens iron, this is going to sting a little, so brace yourself.
I will caveat first and say, you are free to ignore this post as you know my story and you know I am in no position to give advice, hell I am still in therapy and need a lot more, but I want to just speak to you from the heart. I have been *****-slapped on this site before and it helped me. Normally, I would PM you, but I will give the other the others gurus here a chance to debunk what I will say if I am out of line or way off, but I really feel for you my friend and just want to say it plainly, so here goes...

I's taken me all weekend to read through this thread (11 pages) between kids and life, etc. and I see you over analyzing this situation with a electron microscope. Every move she makes, every gesture, every response, every breath, every dollar spent - you try and interpret and analyze and weigh in the full weight of your past. Every comment everyone makes on these forums, you clarify and provide context and history. You are completely bent on figuring this thing out. You weigh heavily on your own past indiscretions. You have not forgiven yourself and thats why you believe she has not forgiven you yet. You think time, patience and sensitivity to her moods and idiosyncrasies will eventually open the doors to reciprocity. You are sorely mistaken.
Both your pasts hang over you like dark cloud. You are observing her and her actions with engineering precision and the slightest reaction you write a thesis in these forums. You are stuck in a sick game my friend. You both obviously need major help. For your own sanity, get thine tushy to your therapist and stay on the couch until you figure out every button spins you into complex analysis paralysis, driving you to this forum to seek answers, then disable those buttons. The answer is clear to several that have responded to you here. Everyone is in awe of your dedication and perseverance to save your marriage and many are afraid to give it to you straight. Your marriage is saved! You are not divorced. You are together! Yay! But this is a loveless marriage. She does not love you and you are trying desperately to get her to love you - this is not something you can do - its all up to her. Are you just going to wait out the calendar till Jan? Then what? You wont have any answers by then, just more questions and more hypotheses to untangle. At some point one of you will say "this is not working" and your youth and years will have been wasted on a stale-mate game.

Here is what you need to do. Forgive yourself for your past. Ok, so you screwed up. We have all fallen. Welcome to the human condition. None of us are perfect or ever will be. You cant fix the past. Let it go. No amount of right doing will undo any past wrong doings. You have started living your new life having learned hard lessons and not making those same mistakes again. Good for you. Keep it up. There is nothing you can do to make up for the past - even giving up your own life, happiness and well-being (which you are doing) can make up for the past - laying down your life is not payment enough - you know your life is not worth anything and laying it down or martyring it does not pay off the debts of your past. You have to file emotional bankruptcy and walk away - do not look back - do not let your past haunt you.
As you walk in your new found life, she may choose to love you (outside chance) or she may never. I have known couples that re-married again 10 years down the road - but for now, you are both suffocating each-other and death is nigh - if not already here - and you are in denial and are holding on for dear life. You both need to be free. Free for her to get the help she needs and then free to choose you and love you for real you once she has found healing. Until you are both free from each others clutches of expectations, she will not / cannot see the real you. All she sees now is a desperate man trying to make up for past. I think she will respect you more if you back off and position yourself in a place where she (and her trusted friends) can see a man worth loving and pursuing. While you are in her orbit, she can't focus. She is under pressure from you to try and make things work - like trying to squeeze a peach ripe. She needs time to heal and so do you.
The more you try and rescue her, the more you enforce her feeling like a victim and this forces her to feel helpless and she can't do anything. She needs to feel empowered to make her own decisions about her heart and like she has the power to save herself. There is only one empowering question to get someone out of this cycle: "What do you want?". I am sorry, the long conversation of you telling her your wants, wont help. You imagining her response or thought process is wrong - sorry dude, but you suck at mind reading, like most of us men.
You are over emphasizing the sex thing - even if you get sex in Jan, it won't change anything. Sex should and will come naturally when she falls in love with you again (if ever). You need to position yourself in a place where she can fall in love with you again - that place is a little away from her right now, where she can see the real you and decide for herself - you are too close for comfort - in fact you so close, she can't even breathe and now you are going for the jugular.
The money thing is just going to entangle her even tighter in the web she is not even sure she wants to be in. Forcing that issue is also too much pressure. She needs to make that commitment on her own, then you will know it is real. She might just be agreeing to get you off her back a bit. All you need to do for both sex and money is state your what you "prefer" and thats it - no additional pressure of explaining your needs. Then back away and take care of your side of the street and walk in your new life free of your past. The past must be in your rear-view mirror fading over the horizon, not in the seat beside haunting you day an night. If she likes what she sees on the other side where she can have clear perspective, she may like what she sees and come over and deliver the goods you seek - love, affection, sex, reciprocity, etc. If she decides to move on, then so be it. Either way, you will have the answer to what lies in her heart, even if its not what you were hoping for, at least you will have truth.
In practical terms, this means doing some form of variation of the 180. You need your own bed and you need to tell her that you "prefer" her in it, but you will be making love to any woman that enters your bed. You need your own social circle of friends and interests and you tell her that you would "prefer" that she be part of that circle, but there is affection, warm embraces, hand holding, couples cuddling while watching movies on the couch, etc. amongst your social circle. You do not need to convince her that in your life you are seeking another, she will see that clearly as you live an open book, open computer and open cell phone. What she will see is that other woman may be interested in a confident guy who has learned hard lessons, but no longer walks in shame and NEVER talks about his past, except with his therapist/TAM buddies, because his past is ancient history and there are so many other interesting things in life to talk about. On final practical note, if you get weak and feel the urge to share your needs with her, turn to questions and listen, then kiss her on the forehead, ignore her reaction and walk, do not tell her your needs - those are reserved for only your true lover, which she may or may never be - her decision - you walk and let her decide to follow you or not. At the end of the day, she needs to choose to love you, and in so doing, she may fall/grow deeper in love with you for the character you are and so many here on this forum have seen and are still amazed by. If she moves on, her loss. You will survive and you will find love again - this you can be assured of. (There is a possibility that in your own freedom from this entanglement, you may decide to move on).
Warmest Sentiments to you my friend.
Peace.


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## cdbaker

Wow indeed, that is a lot to think about. I have been slowly moving to make changes. I do think that we moved in together much too quick because I was indeed seeing things that weren't there. I interpreted a lot of her moves as being for the right reasons when I don't think they were. I'm not saying they were for WRONG reasons, just not the right ones. Example, RIGHT Reason: I'm moving back in with him because I feel our love returning and I'm ready for the next step. WRONG Reason: Living with him rent-free and getting help with chores will be way easier than living along and paying for everything/doing everything myself. Not RIGHT, not WRONG Reason: I'm not in love with him, but moving back in with him now will be convenient and hopefully doing the "right" thing will have me falling back in love again.

The next struggle is that we don't have a lot of options as far as separating again, outside of me sleeping on the couch. I know she wouldn't go sleep on the couch, and worse I think she'd be just fine with me sleeping on the couch because I have developed a horrible snoring problem in the last year or two. I also think telling her that I'm going to consider myself free to see other women is a huge step too far, at least not before laying down some other messages first.

Namely, I like what you say about needing to forgive myself and making it clear to her that I have done so. I imagine I could let her know that I have forgiven myself of my past. She has SAID that she has forgiven me as well, but I know she still holds it against me regularly. So I could add that I expect that if she has really forgiven me, that she will not hold it against me any longer and will begin making our relationship healing a top priority IF that is what she wants to do and is prepared to confirm that. IF that isn't what she wants, then I'd want her to just let me know and we can begin the process of separating again. She'll graduate next month and should be able to make enough money to live on her own again without the need of a creepy roommate.

Outside of the "Seeing other women" stuff, I am working on much of the other things you mentioned. Working on myself. Being more social with friends, working out and eating better, doing more things for me, etc. I'm also (per "no more mr. nice guy") not jumping up and down to do things for her left and right, and I think that is helping already.

I think I recognize that most of what you and many others have said here is true. And I understand why you might recommend a complete 180 on the direction I've been going, but I guess I just don't think a 100% reversal would be a good move right now without first laying down some fair expectations and letting her fail them, if that is what she'll choose to do. At least then she'll know that things are falling apart because of choices that she chose, and not just because I changed my mind and broke my promises one day.

Thanks again!


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## hopefulhubby

Hey CD - Sorry if my long winded message was mis-interpreted. I am in agreement, that you should not be pursuing other woman - I meant that you would not need to tell her that explicitly, just because you are stepping back some - that should be obvious to her by your openness. Do some research on the karpman triangle - that is closer into what I was trying to convey. Peace bro.


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## wilderness

cdbaker said:


> Wow indeed, that is a lot to think about. I have been slowly moving to make changes. I do think that we moved in together much too quick because I was indeed seeing things that weren't there. I interpreted a lot of her moves as being for the right reasons when I don't think they were. I'm not saying they were for WRONG reasons, just not the right ones. Example, RIGHT Reason: I'm moving back in with him because I feel our love returning and I'm ready for the next step. WRONG Reason: Living with him rent-free and getting help with chores will be way easier than living along and paying for everything/doing everything myself. Not RIGHT, not WRONG Reason: I'm not in love with him, but moving back in with him now will be convenient and hopefully doing the "right" thing will have me falling back in love again.
> 
> The next struggle is that we don't have a lot of options as far as separating again, outside of me sleeping on the couch. I know she wouldn't go sleep on the couch, and worse I think she'd be just fine with me sleeping on the couch because I have developed a horrible snoring problem in the last year or two. I also think telling her that I'm going to consider myself free to see other women is a huge step too far, at least not before laying down some other messages first.
> 
> Namely, I like what you say about needing to forgive myself and making it clear to her that I have done so. I imagine I could let her know that I have forgiven myself of my past. She has SAID that she has forgiven me as well, but I know she still holds it against me regularly. So I could add that I expect that if she has really forgiven me, that she will not hold it against me any longer and will begin making our relationship healing a top priority IF that is what she wants to do and is prepared to confirm that. IF that isn't what she wants, then I'd want her to just let me know and we can begin the process of separating again. She'll graduate next month and should be able to make enough money to live on her own again without the need of a creepy roommate.
> 
> Outside of the "Seeing other women" stuff, I am working on much of the other things you mentioned. Working on myself. Being more social with friends, working out and eating better, doing more things for me, etc. I'm also (per "no more mr. nice guy") not jumping up and down to do things for her left and right, and I think that is helping already.
> 
> I think I recognize that most of what you and many others have said here is true. And I understand why you might recommend a complete 180 on the direction I've been going, but I guess I just don't think a 100% reversal would be a good move right now without first laying down some fair expectations and letting her fail them, if that is what she'll choose to do. At least then she'll know that things are falling apart because of choices that she chose, and not just because I changed my mind and broke my promises one day.
> 
> Thanks again!


One thing stuck out at me in a recent post of yours (not this one). You said that when you had a discussion with your wife concerning sex/intimacy, you told her that you are not upset or angry at her due to her refusal to have sex with you (paraphrase).

From my perspective, why not?? IMO you should be plenty angry and frustrated by now. I believe you are starting to get an inkling that she is using you. This is why I think you are taking the wrong approach. It would be great to take your approach if your wife was, you know, actually acting like your wife. If you were in a real marriage, then I would be in your corner 100%. But that is not what is happening here. You have no marriage. As such, if I were you I would be making her refusal to have sex with you _tough_ on her. I would be having discussions with her about her 4 affairs along the lines of "if you could have repeated sex with a child molester, why can't you have it with me?" Yes, I know she didn't realize that he was a child molester, but that is irrelevant to the discussion imo. 

You've held yourself accountable. Too much, imo. Now it's time for you to hold your wife accountable.


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## firebelly1

wilderness said:


> One thing stuck out at me in a recent post of yours (not this one). You said that when you had a discussion with your wife concerning sex/intimacy, you told her that you are not upset or angry at her due to her refusal to have sex with you (paraphrase).
> 
> As such, if I were you I would be making her refusal to have sex with you _tough_ on her. I would be having discussions with her about her 4 affairs along the lines of "if you could have repeated sex with a child molester, why can't you have it with me?"


I disagree 100%. I can't see anyone's wife responding well to this kind of badgering regardless of the circumstances. 

I thought the "...you told her that you are not upset or angry..." was going to go in the direction of you told her you weren't upset or angry, but this whole thread is about you being upset that she isn't even moving toward having sex with you. You are upset and I think you should be honest about that -but no badgering.


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## wilderness

firebelly1 said:


> I disagree 100%. I can't see anyone's wife responding well to this kind of badgering regardless of the circumstances.
> 
> I thought the "...you told her that you are not upset or angry..." was going to go in the direction of you told her you weren't upset or angry, but this whole thread is about you being upset that she isn't even moving toward having sex with you. You are upset and I think you should be honest about that -but no badgering.


Well we can agree to disagree. In my opinion CDs wife is way too comfortable with the present arrangement. Will she like to be asked about her affair sex? No way. But I think it's a discussion that is warranted, valid, appropriate, fair, and necessary.

I would also like to state that in my experience the best way to get a woman to sleep with a man that thinks of him as a friend is to make her uncomfortable by increasing the sexual tension.
The type of comfort that CDs wife is displaying is antithetical to attraction, imo.


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## firebelly1

wilderness said:


> Well we can agree to disagree. In my opinion CDs wife is way too comfortable with the present arrangement. Will she like to be asked about her affair sex? No way. But I think it's a discussion that is warranted, valid, appropriate, fair, and necessary.
> 
> I would also like to state that in my experience the best way to get a woman to sleep with a man that thinks of him as a friend is to make her uncomfortable by increasing the sexual tension.
> The type of comfort that CDs wife is displaying is antithetical to attraction, imo.


From what CD has said, he HAS talked to her about her affair sex. They both know she did it. She has confessed to it. I agree that CD has a right to be frustrated and not put up with this behavior forever, but I think you and I have different versions of "putting up" with it. 

In re: increasing sexual tension by making a woman uncomfortable, I would need to hear more details about what you think that would look like because the way I interpret that is "ignore the fact that this woman is telling you 'no'" and at worst that's going down the road of rape but at least it's a power play that I don't think belongs in a relationship of loving equals. Marriage shouldn't be about "you should do what I want whether you like it or not."


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## wilderness

firebelly1 said:


> From what CD has said, he HAS talked to her about her affair sex. They both know she did it. She has confessed to it. I agree that CD has a right to be frustrated and not put up with this behavior forever, but I think you and I have different versions of "putting up" with it.
> 
> In re: increasing sexual tension by making a woman uncomfortable, I would need to hear more details about what you think that would look like because the way I interpret that is "ignore the fact that this woman is telling you 'no'" and at worst that's going down the road of rape but at least it's a power play that I don't think belongs in a relationship of loving equals. Marriage shouldn't be about "you should do what I want whether you like it or not."


The guys over at the No More Mr. Nice Guy forum recommend putting the moves on the woman until she gives a 'hard no'. Meaning put the onus on her to turn you down. Reading the forum, some of those guys try it every single day. That's probably what I would recommend in this case.


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## cdbaker

HopefulHubby: No worries man! I definitely appreciate and respect your advice, and have taken it to heart. Thank-you!

Wilderness/Firebelly: I had in the past told her that I'm not upset or angry with her for the lack of sexual intimacy thus far because it was the compassionate thing to do. While a lot of time has passed (during which she has been exceedingly busy focusing on nursing school and working to make ends meat) the reality is that she left me feeling alone, unloved, sexually used, betrayed, etc. Before leaving, she engaged in an affair where she fell in love with another man who ultimately left her feeling the same way, unloved, sexually used, betrayed, etc. Shortly after moving out/leaving me, she latched on to the older man who she thought could provide her stability and, because virtually any other woman would find him completely undesirable for a number of reasons (short, bald, thin, much older, working a near minimum wage job in a crappy shared apartment, alcoholic/smoker, etc.), she felt that he would never betray her because, well, who else would want him? Or more specifically, who else who has more to offer than she does would want him? Honestly that makes complete sense. He was "safe." But as you know, even though they didn't have much of a loving relationship, he still betrayed her trust and sexuality thoroughly by pursuing that underage girl, resulting in her apartment being torn apart by police, many of her things seized, being questioned herself, etc.

So yeah, I can completely understand why it would be difficult for her to trust not just me (after my treatment of her) but honestly ANY man after the series of betrayals she has experienced. I do not believe it is fair, even after all I have done since then to show her I can be trusted, to prove that, to expect that she should just jump into bed with me. Heck, if she is going to be miserable doing so, feel used by it, etc. then I don't even WANT that kind of sex with her. I'd sooner go without than accept "Because I feel like I have to do it" sex from her, which I think would only make things worse between her and I, creating a lot of resentment.

Granted, I *get* your point of, "If she can repeatedly sleep with/have sex with a child molester, then why can't she do the same with her husband?" but that's just not even remotely a fair argument. Again, she had reached a point of feeling safe with him because of who he was. She also had no idea that he was a pedophile, and he had no prior convictions or even charges of ever having done anything like that before. I mean, that's how it is with most or at least a lot of criminals. Very often the spouse/significant other has no idea that their partner was engaging in whatever crime it is. The criminal is often VERY talented at keeping secrets and manipulating people. She had no idea she was going to bed with a pedophile.

So not only is has her sexuality been repeatedly abused/betrayed, but she's also had to struggle with trust me over again and ultimately falling back in love. Her trust has mostly returned, but her love has not yet. Frankly, she hasn't even kissed me on the lips yet. So can't you imagine how, for a person in that state, would interpret me making that argument might feel? "If you can **** a child molester week in and week out, then surely you can **** me now." Without the right emotions in place, she would just feel like she is being abused again, used for sexual gratification and nothing more, because if I cared about her, I wouldn't ask her to do that before she is ready.

But the big issue I think you (Wilderness) and others have tried to make is that she is too comfortable where she is, and that I have allowed or even encouraged that current state. That as long as she feels no pressure/incentive to push herself forward in that area, she probably won't move forward at all. And THAT I can agree with. So my struggle has been figuring out how I can help guide her in the right direction. But making illogical demands or placing sudden "big step" expectations on her that involve the most painful area's of her psyche are really bad ideas in my view.


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## cdbaker

wilderness said:


> The guys over at the No More Mr. Nice Guy forum recommend putting the moves on the woman until she gives a 'hard no'. Meaning put the onus on her to turn you down. Reading the forum, some of those guys try it every single day. That's probably what I would recommend in this case.


Yep, and I think it can certainly be a good strategy under the right circumstances. But my situation isn't just a sexless marriage with a "Mr. Nice Guy" problem that needs overcome (though that is an issue that I need to address as well), otherwise I might agree with you. My situation is just as much an issue of healing from past abuse/betrayal and needing to emerge from that first.


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## wilderness

cdbaker said:


> Yep, and I think it can certainly be a good strategy under the right circumstances. But my situation isn't just a sexless marriage with a "Mr. Nice Guy" problem that needs overcome (though that is an issue that I need to address as well), otherwise I might agree with you. My situation is just as much an issue of healing from past abuse/betrayal and needing to emerge from that first.


C'mon, man…that just sounds like a really threadbare excuse from where I sit. We are going on months without her having sex with you. That's just not reasonable, period.


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## LongWalk

CD,

You are a smart and thoughtful guy. Your posts to help others are above average in depth and insight.

You probably have read Bagdon's thread. He overcame a loveless situation. However he did not have to cope with infidelity. He knew that his wife was fantasizing about other men.

He combined a mild form of 180 with getting in shape, becoming a leader, becoming self confident. Of course she did not fall back in love overnight.

Your situation is more difficult because your wife is now damaged. Her healing while under your wing may lead to love or a breakout. Your power of attraction may be security alone. Think non-tenure track position at university. Lawyer who is passed over for partner offer year after year. Triple A ball player who will never be called up.

Ultimatums and high pressure moves may not be right for you. I say work hard on being happy. Give your wife attention less often but when you do make it warm and intense. She probably needs reassurance.

Eventually, you may have file for divorce to concentrate her attention. If you do it in a kind strong way it may flip the switch. Do not wait until you are sick of her to file.

When she asks you why, you can answer because you love her and you want her to be happy. happiness is something she can best find on her own. If she does not want divorce, there is only one conclusion: she must discover passion. 

Have you read JustGrinding?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## caladan

Wow CD, just wow.

I've read your thread (well most of it). You and I have commented on one other thread on this forum, which if we're being honest, is only slightly worse than yours (His wife is sleeping with another woman), but at least he is getting sex, you aren't.

You're not going to get anything from this marriage. It's over. She's not going to kick you out, and she's not going to divorce you, but the sex is gone. Your wife likes strong and crazy dudes (just like I gravitate towards weird hippy women). You're a safe bet. There will be no sex - at best you'll get mercy sex from time to time. The libido won't come back, mostly because it didn't go anywhere, it's just not for you. People with low libidos don't shag other men while denying their partners sex.

Look - all this loyalty some people are praising you for, being considerate, etc etc, it's rubbish. At best it makes people like you, not love you. And the point where you start taking responsibility for your spouse cheating on you is where it all goes pear shaped.

I hope you wake up and figure this out. If you're overweight, lose weight and get your sh1t together. This woman doesn't love you and probably never has. 

The annoying thing is that deep down you KNOW this. You're simply for some strange reason I don't understand, trying to justify a buffet of human feaces. "Look - that's some corn in the buffet. Oh look, a spot of salami".

I can't believe you're this far gone man, and now she's moved back and is making sure she doesn't lose her daughter. And you want to have another kid in january? 

Wake up. People who have intimacy issues based on trust don't sleep with other people but not you.


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## bandit.45

Reading through this thread is like going on walkabout across Australia. I'm surprised I haven't seen roos hopping around or been molested by a wombat. 

CD I have no advice for you that would be even remotely helpful. You overthink everything and you explain away all of her bad behavior. But you know what? Explain all you want, make all the excuses for her you want, it is still bad behavior. 

This woman has no interest in being a wife to you. She has no interest in you, or she would have demonstrated it. She will finish nursing school....

...and then she will walk away from you.....

... and not look back. 

You *are *being played my friend.


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## cdbaker

Good Morning everyone...

I was about to respond to a few of the above posts, but have decided not to. I'm not interested in making excuses. I think the main thing I have said all along for my situation is that as long as she and I are moving forward, making positive progress, that I will stay with it. I've had several third party individuals here locally who have been able to confirm that they see things moving in the right direction, so that is why I'm still here. I know I get frustrated during weeks where the pace isn't what I'd like it to be, but it is what it is.

What I will report is that the wife and I have had two very good, "deep" conversations in the past five days. The first last Friday morning, the second was Wednesday night. I'll try to recap:

Friday morning's chat sort of started before I left for work and she for school. We normally don't have time to talk much at all in the mornings but we had to discuss our weekend plans as we knew we'd be swamped all weekend and that evening prepping for finishing a bathroom in our basement. On the way to work, my mind was just lit up thinking about our marriage, the efforts we're making on our home, (despite enormous debt, ugh, but we need to finish the basement bathroom so we can rent out a bedroom down there in our small duplex) and since I knew she frequently doesn't like to talk much in person and I was feeling the strain of a "slow progress week", I decided to just unload via text to start, (yes, while driving) and then continued most of it via Facebook message when I got to work. I'll post the whole Facebook transcript below, which as usual, is long so I apologize. Prior to these FB messages, not much had been discussed via text aside from my telling her that I felt like I needed her support for some business things we are looking to get into (things that don't require any financial resources of ours, so they shouldn't be too stressful) and that I'd like it if she could be a bit more positive thinking as well.

Judge if you like, but understand that I was shooting from the hip with what I typed here, not really taking any time on the fly to think it all through aside from all of the thinking I'd done prior to this:

"I want to have an absolute awesome, kick-ass, the envy of all who know us, marriage. That doesn't mean it's awesome every minute or day or week or month or whatever. It means that even if we're mad at each other sometime, bummed out, exhausted, etc. that we can KNOW beyond the shadow of a doubt that we have each other's back, that no matter what we can turn to each other when we feel weak, that we won't be judged and will find that support we need to go on. To trust completely. To know that whatever the world throws at us, we have each other. The confidence of knowing that is true, I think, would be the most incredible feeling. I want this for ME, and I want it for US too as long as you also want that for us. If you don't want the same things, then I would like you to let me know sooner than later so that we can get a fresh start with our lives.

If you do have similar desires, then I want to meet your needs completely, and know that you desire to meet mine as well. No we can't be everything to each other, and we can't always meet every need either. But I want you to know that, at all times, it is my absolute desire to meet your needs. Whatever needs you would have that your husband could meet that is. Love needs for sure, but also the things I described above, on down to simple things like taking care of each other when sick, helping each other with tasks, a back rub after a long day, etc. We can't meet EVERY need we have (friends, family, career, etc. meet lots of our other needs of course) but I want you to know at all times that MY desire is that you are happy and fulfilled, and any way that I am able to help support that, is what I WANT to do. Know what I mean?

And of course conversely I want (expect really) the same from you. Again that doesn't mean you can always meet my relational needs. It means I need to know that you always want to. Lots of very legitimate reasons. But outside of those, I want and NEED to be confident that your personal desire, for yourself, is that I am happy and fulfilled as well. I know that I personally feel most happy, confident, worthy, etc. when I know that you are happy, and I can see into your eyes and know that you feel loved, valued, supported, etc. That's why I will take your side against anyone. I will happily write checks for things you need for your goals, do extra chores and household/parenting responsibilities as needed to support your school work, etc. HAPPILY. That's honestly my best evidence and proof that I love you. Through the years, that's how I was able to know, not because I found myself willing to work hard and sacrifice for you, but because I have seen that I am able to do so HAPPILY. In the past, I have seen the same from you as well.

And just to clarify one thing that has been bugging me, I do want to have a physical relationship. In fact to be more clear, I NEED to have a physical relationship. If you aren't a "physical touch" oriented person (love language) then that is fine and it means that maybe we aren't as physically oriented as I might like all the time, but there does have to be a middle ground. I will happily make minor adjustments to my approach to our relationship to meet your love/respect needs. Like planning gifts and other gestures if that works for you. Planning for quality time together, dates or trips if that is your things. Performing tasks and loving acts of service and such for you if that is it. Going out of my way to write you notes and carefully verbally share how impressed I am by you on a daily basis if words of affirmation is your language, etc. And I need to know that you are willing to do the same for me. (Thankfully, meeting these love languages, I have found, takes extremely little time/effort on a daily basis to make an enormous difference) Maybe touching my shoulders when you walk into a room I'm in isn't your first inclination or doesn't come natural, or maybe sliding over to cuddle with me on the couch when you sit down rather than sitting on the other side, but I know that it doesn't take much effort AT ALL to make minor adjustments to your habits that pay enormous dividends for your partner.

And ultimately that includes sex. The longer that women go without, the less they need and crave it, while the opposite is true for men. Everyone is irritable when they go without for a long while, and both men and women, (even those women with low sex drives or who don't feel like they need it after a long while) still NEED to engage in a sexual relationship in order to feel relationally connected to their partner, because of the way it impacts our physical chemistry and relational parts of our brain as well. Meaning healthy relationships cannot grow from a sexless marriage, even those involving a partner or both partners who aren't always excited by sex.

It's not the "getting off" part that does it either, it's the knowing that you care about me and my needs, and hopefully desire me enough to let me meet yours too, to open ourselves up to each other in that way. It's the most powerful vote of confidence and respect a man can receive, ESPECIALLY when I knew that sex was a bit of a struggle for you. I'm not saying that sex or sexual activity solves everything, but wow it makes EVERYTHING better. Less irritability, greater desire to please each other, work better together, be happier/more supportive, greater motivation to be productive, etc. Basically the benefits that anyone who feels loved experiences.

I know a year or so ago I promised that I would neither expect, nor push/pressure for sex in any way to the absolute best of my ability for a "long while" knowing that you would need time to heal and for the relational ties to regrow. I feel pretty confident that I've kept to my word on that. Now you've been home for nearly five months, we sleep in the same bed together, and it is incredibly difficult and, at this point, hurtful for me that there is nothing remotely physical between us. I fear that I have made it too easy to just ignore this problem by promising that there are no expectations, so at this point I feel that we really need to be working on our sexual relationship as well. I'm not saying that we need to have sex TONIGHT or anything anything like that (Well, for the record, yeah I'd LOVE that, but I'm not saying that I expect that), but I believe that we need to now be putting effort into restoring our physical relationship.

I am not blaming you for anything here, so I don't want you to feel bad right now or anything like that. I'm not judging you or saying you are doing anything wrong, or telling you what to do/not to do, etc. I'm not trying to dictate what our future has to be like, because you are a different person with your own ideas and feelings for the future. Heck, like I said before, if the future you want doesn't share many similarities with mine, then I'd rather find out now so that we can find someone else to be happy with. *I just want you to know where I am at, how I feel, what I need, etc., and to understand that these expectations cannot be ignored and they will not go away.* I'm damn committed to being a GREAT husband, I want to be YOUR great husband, but only if you intend to be a great wife to me as well. If you ever need help, need me to understand something, or if there is something you feel I am doing wrong or could be doing better, I honestly want you to feel free to share that with me every time, asap, and I promise I will be open to it."


That night, we chatted real briefly about it all and she said she understood where I was coming from, that I have not been unreasonable, and would make every effort to share how she is feeling about me and be more forthright about letting me know when there are things I'm doing wrong or could do better to help me out as well. That night while at Home Depot getting lumber for our basement project, she held my hand while we walked around the store.


----------



## cdbaker

Then the Wednesday night conversation. We already were having a great in depth conversation about family, work, school stuff, etc. that then led into the topic of our relationship again. She shared with me that she often feels like she is invisible to me when I come home and immediately get busy with housework, various projects, etc. She shared that when she is around my friends and I, that I mostly ignore her or just focus on them. She shared that she does still struggle to trust me, sexually and relationally. She said that after our marriage basically failed, the affair with the married guy failed, she was crushed. She said she never really loved the last guy, the eventual convicted pedophile that she moved in with, and that they really weren't very sexual. She said the only reason she was able to be sexual at all with him was BECAUSE she didn't love him, and because she was afraid of being totally alone.

With me, it is sort of like being asked to try to fall back in love with your former abuser. She said she has appreciated my patience and she has tried to keep working on us. She said that yes her libido is virtually non-existent anyway, and she knows that I need a physical relationship and feels awful that she hasn't been ready for that yet. (She was saying much of this through tears) She also affirmed that yes she wants to stay married to me, and wants to have a great marriage, but is just afraid because of how difficult it has been for her to recover from all the pain of the last few years.

I made sure to acknowledge everything she was saying, and apologize for the things she said that I had done that bothered her. I assured her that she is a key focus in my life, and I value her immensely, 2nd only to God in my world. I explained that the housework and projects and such I thought I was mostly doing for her and to show her that I'm not lazy, that I am committed, and useful, etc. I also explained that I think most men have a need to feel useful, respected, worthy, etc. and I imagine that is part of it.

She seemed to accept everything, had a few apologies of her own, and we ended it on a good note. We then went and watched a movie together which is something I know that she never really enjoys but I love them, so it was nice to see her do that.

Baby steps I think.


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## wilderness

May I give you some tough love?

I don't think you are making any progress whatsoever. Actually I believe you are going backwards. All of this talking about your feelings and writing long notes/having long conversations with your wife has to be killing whatever attraction she might or does feel for you right now.

You have to understand women first and foremost. It's not what they _say_ that's important, it's what they do. They do not communicate overtly and directly like men do. Look at what her actions are saying to you right now-

1. They are saying that she is not attracted to you.
2. They are NOT saying that it has to do with libido. If that were the case she wouldn't have had sex with pedophile.
3. (the good) They are saying that she would _like_ to be attracted to you; because she is there with you and that says a lot.

You can't negotiate attraction. You can't talk your wife into wanting to be sexual with you. Progress would be stuff like kissing/making out, her getting changed in front of you, BJs, etc…


Please, sir…read No More Mr. Nice guy if you haven't already done so. It's available for free on the web. I would also strongly recommend you check out the NMMNG forum and read a few dozen threads. There are other men that were in the situation that you are in and turned it around. 

It's possible that it can be turned around, but not the way you are going about it.


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## bandit.45

What a load of crap she is spewing. And shame on you for buying into it. 

So she can't have sex with you because she loves you, but she has sex with a muther-fvcking POS child molester because she didn't love him? :scratchhead:

Oaky, let me read that again:



> She shared that she does still struggle to trust me, sexually and relationally. She said that after our marriage basically failed, the affair with the married guy failed, she was crushed. She said she never really loved the last guy, the eventual convicted pedophile that she moved in with, and that they really weren't very sexual. *She said the only reason she was able to be sexual at all with him was BECAUSE she didn't love him*, and because she was afraid of being totally alone.


:scratchhead:

One more time, and maybe I'll understand this:



> She shared that *she does still struggle to trust me, sexually and relationally*. She said that after our marriage basically failed, the affair with the married guy failed, she was crushed. She said she never really loved the last guy, the eventual convicted pedophile that she moved in with, and that they really weren't very sexual. *She said the only reason she was able to be sexual at all with him was BECAUSE she didn't love him, and because she was afraid of being totally alone*.


So, she has sex with men she doesn't love and refuses sex with YOU, a man she professes to love....

Am I the only one on this thread who is not getting this? 

What did you do to her in the past that makes her trust a man she doesn't love over you? Did you rape her? Did you sodomize her? Did you bring a group of men to the house and gangbang her? 

What did you do that was so bad that she won't have sex with you?

I don't get it. I don't think anyone here gets it.


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## tom67

No Bandit you are not alone.

It's his choice but I have to agree with you. :scratchhead:


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## wilderness

bandit.45 said:


> What a load of crap she is spewing. And shame on you for buying into it.
> 
> So she can't have sex with you because she loves you, but she has sex with a muther-fvcking POS child molester because she didn't love him? :scratchhead:
> 
> Oaky, let me read that again:
> 
> 
> 
> :scratchhead:
> 
> One more time, and maybe I'll understand this:
> 
> 
> 
> So, she has sex with men she doesn't love and refuses sex with YOU, a man she professes to love....
> 
> Am I the only one on this thread who is not getting this?
> 
> What did you do to her in the past that makes her trust a man she doesn't love over you? Did you rape her? Did you sodomize her? Did you bring a group of men to the house and gangbang her?
> 
> What did you do that was so bad that she won't have sex with you?
> 
> I don't get it. I don't think anyone here gets it.


What it boils down to is that she is not attracted to him. Women will say all kinds of nonsense to 'justify' their lack of attraction. My guess is that she doesn't really even understand it and as such is just manufacturing excuses that may be passable cover stories to avoid some really uncomfortable and inconvenient truths.

One of the mistakes that OP is making, imo, is to take these justifications and internalize them, take them personally, and accept them as valid, therefore giving them credence and legitimacy and crystallizing them as real. Defending oneself against these types of excuses is a good way to give up power and further exacerbate the situation, in my opinion.


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## LostViking

wilderness said:


> What it boils down to is that she is not attracted to him. Women will say all kinds of nonsense to 'justify' their lack of attraction. My guess is that she doesn't really even understand it and as such is just manufacturing excuses that may be passable cover stories to avoid some really uncomfortable and inconvenient truths.
> 
> One of the mistakes that OP is making, imo, is to take these justifications and internalize them, take them personally, and accept them as valid, therefore giving them credence and legitimacy and crystallizing them as real. Defending oneself against these types of excuses is a good way to give up power and further exacerbate the situation, in my opinion.


Yeah I think you nailed it. 

She is using the _possibilty_ of one day having sex with him again as a carrot to keep her hooks in him, let him support her, and leech off him while she finishes school.


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## angstire

LostViking said:


> let him support her, and leech off him while she finishes school.


That's what I see. It's how my story played out.

I hope CD doesn't get a rude shock in January when she's done, but that's what this looks like from here.


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## tom67

angstire said:


> That's what I see. It's how my story played out.
> 
> I hope CD doesn't get a rude shock in the January when she's done, but that's what this looks like from here.


:iagree::iagree:


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## cdbaker

Well, we'll see what happens I guess.

I'm always open to new ideas that don't involve "Kick her ass to the curb" or "go home and tell her to spread her legs or get out" or the like. I liked hopeful hubby's suggestions as well. The key I think before moving to anything more dramatic was me sitting down and laying out my expectations both for the marriage long term, and the present. That meant letting her know that I believe we now need to be at a point where we are working on our physical relationship as well. Not sometime down the road, but now. I think I owe it to her to give her at least a few weeks to see if she can follow through on that.

I hope that makes sense. It wouldn't have been fair for me, as an example, to have kicked her out a week ago for not having been willing to be sexual all this time, when the last thing she had been told was that no sexual activity was expected until told otherwise. Now she has been told otherwise, so now I am free to do what I can to try to move us in that direction and see how she chooses to respond. If there is zero progress after a few weeks, then I think it'll be time to step it up.


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## karole

You need to act like you don't give a rat's as$ if she has sex with you are not! She knows you want to, so quit telling her you do! Get a life. Do things you enjoy and don't share all your plans with her. And, get the books that Wilderness suggested and read them this weekend!


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## wilderness

cdbaker said:


> Well, we'll see what happens I guess.
> 
> I'm always open to new ideas that don't involve "Kick her ass to the curb" or "go home and tell her to spread her legs or get out" or the like. I liked hopeful hubby's suggestions as well. The key I think before moving to anything more dramatic was me sitting down and laying out my expectations both for the marriage long term, and the present. That meant letting her know that I believe we now need to be at a point where we are working on our physical relationship as well. Not sometime down the road, but now. I think I owe it to her to give her at least a few weeks to see if she can follow through on that.
> 
> I hope that makes sense. It wouldn't have been fair for me, as an example, to have kicked her out a week ago for not having been willing to be sexual all this time, when the last thing she had been told was that no sexual activity was expected until told otherwise. Now she has been told otherwise, so now I am free to do what I can to try to move us in that direction and see how she chooses to respond. If there is zero progress after a few weeks, then I think it'll be time to step it up.


This type of communication doesn't work. It makes things worse. Again, you are trying to negotiate feelings and attraction, and that doesn't work. Try something different, what you are doing is not working. Are you familiar with the concept of 'frame'? You need to develop the mindset that this is your life that she is participating in (if she meets your standards), and not the other way around.
Frame |


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## caladan

Funny thing - I don't think it's the end of the world at all. I don't think she's a devious conniving ***** who is playing CD. I do however have absolutely no doubt that she's not attracted to CD at all.

Actually that's wrong. She probably somewhat repelled by CD. 

I wish I had good news for you, I really do. I believe, based on your posts (and despite my conviction that you're whitewashing the reality to justify your decisions) that things are and will get better. However, I don't think they will ever become "good". They simply will get less bad.

What you have in store for you is a sexless life with this woman. That's the best you're going to get. You may be able to negotiate an open relationship, or something along those lines, but the affection you obviously desire would be like squeezing water from a rock. And your name isn't Moses. 

There's tons of good ideas being fed to you here. Books to read, assertive moves to make. I'm with you on one thing - demanding sex from her makes no sense, certainly not to me. But what you're doing is probably the one thing that's worse - you're begging for it. Every conversation you've posted here comes to the same thing - begging. Please love me. Please touch me. Please satisfy me. Not a good move.


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## mupostori

CD:One correction as it relates to the swinging/swapping stuff. I myself never actually participated. We never got that far and I never even reached the point of advocating for myself to play with others.

CD:I became a pervert/sexual deviant/porn addict who actively sought to get her to have sex with others so that I could watch and then possibly participate.

Does this mean your wife had sex with other people 
or
she never had sex with other people but you just asked her to do it but it never happened

I ask because she said something along the lines It's like falling for your abuser


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## cdbaker

Karole: I think that might be a good next step. I'm not going to beg, but I did clearly establish my expectations and needs. If she shows that she's unwilling to meet those while allowing me to meet hers, then that might be the next route to try. Maybe move out of the bedroom and not concern myself with her needs.

Wilderness: Which type of communication doesn't work? In the post you quote, I only repeated that I shared with her my expectations and needs. I stated clearly that I need a sexual relationship with her in order to feel connected, respected and happy in the marriage, and that we need to get to that point now, not later. I can't see how clearly laying out expectations to your partner could ever be a bad thing. I don't think I was negotiating anything when I had that talk with her, or since then. Everything prior to that isn't really relevant, as this is a change of approach for me.

Caladan: I think you might be most right here. I do frequently worry that she is simply not attracted to me. In fact I know several years ago after she had moved out, she had privately (yeah I found an online chat log of hers) told a friend that she was not physically attracted to me and wasn't sure if she ever really was. Of course, at that time we were recently split, she was with another guy, she had years of built up anger and pain that was fresh in her mind, and had lots of other negative things to say about me, some of which weren't factually true. In that convo, she was trying to defend her leaving me, so it made sense for her to add "not attracted to him" to that case, true or not.

Now I'm not trying to convince myself that it isn't true, just that its very reasonable to see how it might not be true or have been an exaggeration in that context. With that said, I also believe strongly that women (more so than men) can fall in love with a man much more easily based on who he is as a person, how he carries himself, how he works hard, treats her and his children well, financially stable, is a good over all male specimen, etc., even if she is not very physically attracted to him. Especially if he isn't obviously overweight, dirty/stinky all the time, has a major handicap or something similar, etc. No one who ever has known either of us has ever suggested to me that maybe she never loved me to begin with, everyone has always sworn that they believed she loved me. Is it possible that she loved me but has never been incredibly physically attracted to me however? Yeah absolutely. She did point out how I went from about 175lbs when we got married to about 210lbs about six years later, so I've been working to get more in shape in the last year, especially in light of the advice received here in TAM. I'm down to 195lbs now, and my ideal weight for my height is 185lbs.

But like I said, maybe you are right Caladan. She already says that she loves me, but obviously not "passionately" so yet. But even if that love does grow very strong, there is definitely that chance that she'll never be very sexual, whether that has anything to do with her attraction level towards me or not. Frankly I'm convinced that she wouldn't be very sexually oriented in any relationship without a lot of effort on the part of the man to make that happen or some personal growth on her part or both.

As far as begging, I do not feel like I am begging, yet. As I mentioned, I didn't "change the rules" regarding sex until just last week or so. I haven't yet tried to push for sex since then, but have been stepping up my game to include regular touching of various kinds. On saturday night she kissed me full on the lips without my initiating, which was an absolute first. Last night she twice asked me to come cuddle with her on the couch in front of our christmas tree, and gave me another kiss on the way after noticing that our daughter had hung mistletoe over our entry way. On Wednesday last week, (a few days after our talk) she stopped me in the kitchen for a hug and said she would kiss me but I was only 36 hours from starting medication for strep throat, and didn't want to risk getting sick herself. (Very reasonable) Obviously she could just be trying to appease me (which is fine!) with such "small" steps in order to avoid having to go all the way, but it's only been a week so I am totally ok with the smaller steps she's been taking in a very short period of time.

The only time I've been "rejected" was a few nights ago when I tried to cuddle up to her in bed and she rolled away a bit and said that she wasn't yet comfortable enough for that. (Spooning) I didn't argue or say anything, I just got up and left the room to play video games for an hour or two. She typically likes me to come fall asleep with her at night, usually around 10pm which is earlier that I typically like to go to sleep. So if she didn't want to cuddle for a few minutes while falling asleep, then I wasn't going to reward her by staying in bed with her.

Mupostori: To answer your question, during our brief "swinging/sharing" phase, yes she did have sex with a male friend of mine three times, all with my permission and with me being present two of those times. At the time, my moronic point of view was focused on trying to show her that sex was fun and exciting, and that I would benefit from that. The first time was a surprise for her, she didn't know I was planning it. Each time she found the experience itself exciting, but then felt extreme guilt afterwards and uncomfortable about doing it again. She would eventually share that she felt pressured into doing it for me (which I certainly did pressure her) and never felt right about it. She knew she was "failing" me as a wife and felt guilty about that.


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## LostViking

She felt guilt for swinging, but no guilt whatsoever for withholding sex from you? 

That just makes no sense.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cdbaker

LostViking: I know my posts are long, but it sounds like you didn't read the last line or two of my most recent post:



cdbaker said:


> She knew she was "failing" me as a wife and felt guilty about that.


That's what I meant by "failing" me as a wife. She knew the lack of sex/libido had become a huge problem. She felt incredible guilt about that and was regularly worried that I might leave her or meet someone else and cheat on her. In fact, if it weren't for her guilt over our non-existant sex life, she probably would never have agreed to try the kinkier stuff. I had suggested the sharing/swinging idea as a fantasy that she might find exciting and help "reboot" her sex drive. The hope was that she might realize sex is fun and loosen up about it and awaken her libido for us.

The first time, a friend of mine and I both seduced her which was exciting for her to feel two guys focused on her alone and to be so "naughty" in allowing it to happen. Afterwards she felt immediate guilt and shame, along with a bit of resentment towards me for pushing for it and allowing it. (Two separate things) In time, she allowed it to happen two more times thinking that maybe the guilt/shame would go away, but it didn't. So then she still felt guilty about our non-existent sex life, guilt over the things she did with our friend which felt like cheating to her, and resentment towards me for having pushed for and allowed it all. The resentment over my *pushing for* that was because it made her feel like I viewed her as nothing more than an outlet for getting off, to push her into something she was uncomfortable with for my sexual gratification. The resentment over my allowing it to happen was because she feels that a husband is called to protect and treasure his wife's virtue, her purity, when he commits to marry her and had obviously failed to do so. These things made her question my feelings for her and how much I really valued her.

So yes, she felt guilty about all of it, I apologize if that wasn't clear.


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## LostViking

But like Bandit said, your wife had no problem having sex with the child molester. 

So there has to be a lack of attraction and interest keeping her from being intimate with you. There is something about you, please forgive me for being blunt, that just flat repulses her. 

Have you asked her straight up _"Do I dsigust you physically? Do you find me ugly and repulsive? Why can you not just be honest with me for once? Telling me the truth will not hurt any more than your cheating did."_


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## caladan

Hi LostVik - I really don't see how the phrase "any more than your cheating did" will help this situation at all, heh. I feel your empathy and passion, but - we're pretty much past that stage I believe.

Hi CD - purely from a statistical perspective, you're aiming at the narrowest window available. All our speculation here is based on what's most likely. Nay, what is overwhelmingly likely. The reality is that what is overwhelmingly likely isn't necessarily the truth. Even odds of 99.99% simply indicate that there's a 0.001% chance of a different perspective.

My point? The odds are strongly against you here. I personally don't think you're going to make it, but that's based on my own opinion, which is colored by the breakup of my marriage, as well as my experiences with the different women I've associated with. There is an outside chance that things will get sorted out for you, and from the bottom of my heart, I wish you the best of luck with that. It takes a great deal of resolve (as well as a healthy dose of a courage/boldness/stubborness mixture) to work towards such odds, so you're going to need all your strength. I honestly wish you the very best here, and will continue to track your progress via this thread.


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## cdbaker

I keep trying to think of an analogy here... imagine a dog that has been beaten mercilessly since a puppy by a large bald man. The dog escapes and is found by a family where the woman takes good care of him. The woman's husband, a smallish man with longer-medium length hair, also gets along well with the dog, as do the young children. The dog is well behaved and loves the new family. When the woman's brother comes over however, who is of a similar size and looks like the original owner who beat the dog, the animal is tense, fearful, quick to run and hide or lash out. So why was the dog fine with the new family but not with the brother? Because the dog's past experience didn't involve anyone like those family members harming him, so it didn't take much love for them to "get through" to the dog, they seemed "safe" to him. With the Brother, he reminded him too much of the mean owner, and was very defensive.

Again, she was able to sleep with the pedophile because she figured he could not hurt her as I and others had, he seemed "safe". By being with a man who by most accounts would be considered extremely UNdesirable (twice her age, bald, very short and pudgy, tiny shared apartment with a minimum wage job, a smoker, alcoholic, massive debt, beat up 20+ year old car, etc.), she figured he wouldn't be the type to risk losing her by mistreating her or harming her. The dog in the analogy was far more trusting of the new family because none of them reminded the dog of the prior owner. For my wife, she'd also never lived alone and didn't want to, having him around made her feel safer and even his meager income combined with hers let her afford an apartment. (In a sense, that's like using him. A fact that does not escape me) He knew he was lucky as hell to have grabbed the attention of an attractive woman half his age too, so he treated her like a princess, though a very carefully controlled and manipulated princess. She always made clear to her friends and family that she didn't really love him, certainly didn't find him attractive or desirable really, but that he made her feel good about herself by how he treated her well, or so she thought, and she preferred living with him vs. living alone. In return, he had needs too, so she met them when necessary. (sexually)

Obviously anyone could say, "Well cdbaker, you have needs too, and you clearly do everything you can to treat her well too, so why isn't she willing to meet your needs?"

Going back to the dog analogy. Imagine how much more defensive and fearful the dog would become if that new family revealed themselves to be just as heartless as the original owner and started beating him? Now the dog would feel like it can't trust any human of any shape or size. Then if the original dog owner were to track him down and brings him back home, even if the owner starts treating the dog wonderfully from that moment on, don't you think it'll take a very long while before the dog is able to trust and love the owner again?

Well that's the situation. The pedophile revealed himself to be just as much an ******* as the other guy's she's been with, myself included, showing that even with her being way out of his league, she still can't trust him. In that time, I'd shown every sign of having become a better man and husband, so after about six months she decided to give "us" another chance, and 8 months later decided to move back home. Little by little, that trust is starting to come back, but it's taking time.

That's where the whole dog analogy ends, because my wife isn't a dog, she is actually really quite attractive, and I really want to have sex with her, not with a dog.


With all of that said, yeah it might be worth me just asking her one of these days if she finds me attractive or not and implore her to be honest.


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## karole

CDB, I'm sorry that I don't know your entire story, but did your wife just leave her daughter with you? Was your daughter ever around that pedophile?


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## cdbaker

Thanks Caladan, I appreciate it. I will definitely consider your words carefully.

For now I can say that I feel satisfied. I do not believe it's fair to expect a perfect sexual and emotional relationship overnight, I believe that it takes time to come back from the kind of mess we went through. At the moment, it feels like we're making steady progress.


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## cdbaker

karole said:


> CDB, I'm sorry that I don't know your entire story, but did your wife just leave her daughter with you? Was your daughter ever around that pedophile?


No problem. In a sense, yes she did leave our daughter with me at home. When she left initially to crash at friends houses, she knew it wouldn't be right to bring along our then 6-year old daughter for that, not when she had a comfortable home with a bedroom of her own that was familiar to her. Later when she got the apartment with the pedophile, he and I had already met where he threatened me and I got a restraining order against him for myself and our daughter. Months after that when I dropped it all, I knew this guy was a sleezeball, as did everyone else who knew him that I had spoken to, including her family. Not just because he was a bad person for trying to steal away another man's wife and break up a family, but something was very very obviously sleezy about this guy in how he behaved and treated people. 

Though she wouldn't admit it, I think she even feared that there might be some truth to my feeling about him, and so she agreed to never allow him to be around her. I taught my daughter very directly that he was a bad man whom I did not trust, and that she was to call for help if she ever saw him, including screaming. In the almost two years that my wife was with him, she never did allow my daughter around him. Even later on when she/I let her spend the night with her, it was on nights when he worked overnight as a security guard. Obviously, I thank God that he was never allowed to interact with her, and my wife and I shared a moment months after he was arrested where she tearfully thanked me for having put my foot down on the matter and going as far as I did to prevent him from being allowed around her.

So because my wife lived with him (so due to the problems with him and her promise to me, she couldn't move in with her) and she was able to see that I was taking good care of our daughter and not trying to keep them apart, she never once tried to take her out of our home. Aside from basically disappearing for the first month or so, she stayed very involved with her as her mom, talking to her on the phone or in person nearly every day, taking her out and visiting family with her at least a couple days a week, and after a little over a year, she asked for and I agreed to letting her have overnights with her when the pedophile worked overnight and wouldn't be there. I was definitely the primary parent, but she was never out of the picture by any stretch.


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## karole

cdbaker said:


> No problem. In a sense, yes she did leave our daughter with me at home. When she left initially to crash at friends houses, she knew it wouldn't be right to bring along our then 6-year old daughter for that, not when she had a comfortable home with a bedroom of her own that was familiar to her. Later when she got the apartment with the pedophile, he and I had already met where he threatened me and I got a restraining order against him for myself and our daughter. Months after that when I dropped it all, I knew this guy was a sleezeball, as did everyone else who knew him that I had spoken to, including her family. Not just because he was a bad person for trying to steal away another man's wife and break up a family, but something was very very obviously sleezy about this guy in how he behaved and treated people.
> 
> Though she wouldn't admit it, I think she even feared that there might be some truth to my feeling about him, and so she agreed to never allow him to be around her. I taught my daughter very directly that he was a bad man whom I did not trust, and that she was to call for help if she ever saw him, including screaming. In the almost two years that my wife was with him, she never did allow my daughter around him. Even later on when she/I let her spend the night with her, it was on nights when he worked overnight as a security guard. Obviously, I thank God that he was never allowed to interact with her, and my wife and I shared a moment months after he was arrested where she tearfully thanked me for having put my foot down on the matter and going as far as I did to prevent him from being allowed around her.
> 
> So because my wife lived with him (so due to the problems with him and her promise to me, she couldn't move in with her) and she was able to see that I was taking good care of our daughter and not trying to keep them apart, she never once tried to take her out of our home. Aside from basically disappearing for the first month or so, she stayed very involved with her as her mom, talking to her on the phone or in person nearly every day, taking her out and visiting family with her at least a couple days a week, and after a little over a year, she asked for and I agreed to letting her have overnights with her when the pedophile worked overnight and wouldn't be there. I was definitely the primary parent, but she was never out of the picture by any stretch.


Thank you for the above. I admire you for protecting your daughter. Even though your wife did stay in your daughter's life, the fact remains that she walked out on not only her marriage, but her daughter too. There is something deeply wrong with her to do that. Were I in your position that would be a deal breaker for me - more so than the affair. Your wife sounds like she is a very selfish person - she puts her needs before anyone else. I'm sorry, CDB, but I could never have any respect for a mother that walks out on her child. Why do you want to be with this woman?


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## cdbaker

No doubt she was selfish back then, she even acknowledged it. She just said that she couldn't handle being with me at our home anymore for various reasons, some of which I have discussed and some I haven't. I do agree with you however, I still feel it was the wrong thing to do. At the same time however, I'm not sure what other options she had that might have been better?

We see stories from folks on TAM all the time of broken marriages and spouses trying to figure out how best to leave them. Most of the time it seems to boil down to variations of two different options: You can leave or you can get your spouse to leave. I wasn't going to leave, period. She was open to leaving (obviously) but was also knew she had no money as she was a full time college student without a job until a couple of weeks before she left, so she couldn't afford an apartment of her own, and her school and job didn't allow for her to have our daughter full time either. Obviously I am glad that she didn't try to take our daughter, as I felt that the best place for her was remaining in her home, in her room, familiar and stable surroundings, etc. So I guess I'm not really sure how she could have exited the home/marriage much better than the way she did, you know?

Meaning, you say, "I could never have any respect for a mother that walks out on her child" but how else should she have done it that would have been better for everyone involved?


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## wilderness

cdbaker said:


> Meaning, you say, "I could never have any respect for a mother that walks out on her child" but how else should she have done it that would have been better for everyone involved?


She could have not left and tried to work on her marriage.
I really don't get why you continually defend this woman.


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## tdwal

wilderness said:


> She could have not left and tried to work on her marriage.
> I really don't get why you continually defend this woman.


I agree, your trying to rationalize everything she did and she was wrong.


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## cdbaker

I acknowledged that it was wrong, and that her behavior back then was selfish. I'm not defending what she did.

I think my point was valid though. We see stories of women trying to get out of bad marriages here on TAM all the time, and they get all kinds of advice on how to do it. They aren't always told, "No you should stay in your marriage no matter what" even though that is of course always an option. Karole is implying that leaving our daughter in my very safe and proven hands was somehow damning, rather than taking her with her to couch surf with friends for a month and then in an apartment with a creepy old man who turned out to be a pedophile. Obviously the entire situation sucked, and there is nothing she could have done to make her leaving the marriage not suck, but I can't imagine too many scenarios where she could have left the marriage in a more appealing way. I imagine if she had been posting here way back then, many of you would have given her lots of advice for how to get out, and since she would have been the one painting the picture of us, I probably would have come off looking/sounding like a terrible husband who needed to be left right away.


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## wilderness

cdbaker said:


> I acknowledged that it was wrong, and that her behavior back then was selfish. I'm not defending what she did.
> 
> I think my point was valid though. We see stories of women trying to get out of bad marriages here on TAM all the time, and they get all kinds of advice on how to do it. They aren't always told, "No you should stay in your marriage no matter what" even though that is of course always an option. Karole is implying that leaving our daughter in my very safe and proven hands was somehow damning, rather than taking her with her to couch surf with friends for a month and then in an apartment with a creepy old man who turned out to be a pedophile. Obviously the entire situation sucked, and there is nothing she could have done to make her leaving the marriage not suck, but I can't imagine too many scenarios where she could have left the marriage in a more appealing way. I imagine if she had been posting here way back then, many of you would have given her lots of advice for how to get out, and since she would have been the one painting the picture of us, I probably would have come off looking/sounding like a terrible husband who needed to be left right away.


What she did was flat out horrible. Why are you carrying water for a woman that intentionally tried to harm her own children?


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## cdbaker

Ok, now I'm really lost. How did she intentionally harm my daughter?? Marriages fall apart every day, people quit or leave marriages every day. I don't think either partner ever really intentionally tries to harm their children in that process.


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## karole

cdbaker said:


> I acknowledged that it was wrong, and that her behavior back then was selfish. I'm not defending what she did.
> 
> I think my point was valid though. We see stories of women trying to get out of bad marriages here on TAM all the time, and they get all kinds of advice on how to do it. They aren't always told, "No you should stay in your marriage no matter what" even though that is of course always an option. Karole is implying that leaving our daughter in my very safe and proven hands was somehow damning, rather than taking her with her to couch surf with friends for a month and then in an apartment with a creepy old man who turned out to be a pedophile. Obviously the entire situation sucked, and there is nothing she could have done to make her leaving the marriage not suck, but I can't imagine too many scenarios where she could have left the marriage in a more appealing way. I imagine if she had been posting here way back then, many of you would have given her lots of advice for how to get out, and since she would have been the one painting the picture of us, I probably would have come off looking/sounding like a terrible husband who needed to be left right away.


I have never seen anyone on this board tell anyone to abandon their children. As a matter of fact, people coming here that are going through divorce are told do not leave your home. Judge's look at that as abandonment and that is exactly what your wife did. If you had filed for divorce when your wife left, you would have most likely gotten custody of your daughter. The court would see what your wife did as abandonment. 

As a mother myself, it is difficult to imagine any mother abandoning their daughter for any reason, especially to move in with a child molester and then staying with said child molester after she knew that he was one. I guess she should be commended for agreeing not to take her daughter around him, but geez, isn't that sort of a no brainer? 

Why couldn't your wife get a job and support herself and her daughter? Why not file for divorce and ask for child support and/or alimony? There were things she could have done so that she did not have to leave her child. She chose not to.


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## wilderness

cdbaker said:


> Ok, now I'm really lost. How did she intentionally harm my daughter?? Marriages fall apart every day, people quit or leave marriages every day. I don't think either partner ever really intentionally tries to harm their children in that process.


She abandoned your daughter. And she certainly didn't do it by accident. She _chose_ to abandon your daughter.
I think you should hold her accountable for that.


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## LostViking

wilderness said:


> She abandoned your daughter. And she certainly didn't do it by accident. She _chose_ to abandon your daughter.
> I think you should hold her accountable for that.


:iagree:

It takes a special, cold-hearted person to abandon their child. This is why I do not believe this woman is going to stick around after she graduates from her program. 

I would bet she will be searching for a job in a different city or state just so she can ditch cdbaker and her daughter as soon as she has an opportunity. 

She's a user.


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## cdbaker

Wow, ok, this went off in a complete other direction.

I'm struggling with the notion that the alternative to "abandoning her daughter" is taking our daughter with her to couch surf at various friends homes for a couple of weeks and then move her in to an apartment with a man she'd only known for about 45 days (who later turned out to be a pedophile, he had no convictions of any kind prior to that), immediately after telling her that her mommy and daddy were going to live apart for a while. Again, THAT was the alternative. I cannot see how that alternative would make her a better mom than leaving her in her home with me, where I maintained a stable and comforting environment for her, while committing to visit her, taking her out, or speaking to her over the phone nearly every single day.

She DID get a job shortly before she left. Full time making $8/hour. A "single" mom can't live on $8 an hour and afford an apartment, utilities, food/clothing, gas, car payment, etc. So she moved in with the other man who she was seeing. Every counselor I have spoken to and co-parenting book I have read says that you have to be extremely careful when introducing children to new boyfriends or girlfriends, and we both knew that our 6 year old daughter being introduced to Mommy's new boyfriend who she'd only known for less than two months, would not be a good idea, let alone making her live with him as well. Despite everything, she also did not yet want a divorce, so as long as I wasn't forcing one, she didn't actually want to go file for divorce.

I wish she hadn't left. I know she was selfish to blast out of the house the way she did, and it was certainly unwise and hurtful for her to immediately move in with a new man. She didn't feel that she had many options due to her limited income, and she trusted me with our daughter at home, ultimately believing it was in her BEST INTEREST to not be forced to move out of her home to live in less desirable circumstances (crappy apartment in bad area of town, best that she could afford) with Mom's new boyfriend who she didn't know. My daughter didn't even find out that her mom was leaving or that the marriage was in trouble until the day she left. Are all of you actually saying that she made the wrong decision to leave her with me??!

Why is there this assumption that a woman is automatically a horrible mom if she doesn't insist on taking her children with her, regardless of any other factors involved?! Why can't a woman recognize that she is not in a healthy place (emotionally, mentally, financially) to be the primary caretaker of a child and make, what I believe was, the right choice to leave her child in a stable environment with the other parent and then do her best to co-parent from a few miles away on the other side of town? Are we really saying that any woman who comes to a decision to separate from her husband for valid reasons is automatically a horrible human being who should be ashamed of herself if she chooses to let her child continue to sleep in her own bedroom in what she feels is a better situation, just because she won't be living there as well? Even though she would see, talk with or take her out nearly every single day???

Incidentally, my wife had a baby when she was 16 years old and gave him up to a family she knew who could not have children. That boy is now in 6th grade, is happy and healthy with his family. I guess this makes her a ****ty, cold-hearted, despicable human being and a terrible parent right?


Karole: My wife DID get a job and try to support herself, but didn't make enough to be able to provide even 1/3 of the life that I was able to provide at our already established home. The other man had absolutely no convictions or even known accusations of having any interest in underage persons during her involvement with him. In no way, shape or form did she stay with him once the first notice of an accusation of pursuing the sexual relationship with the young girl came out, which was when he was arrested. Heck, the police showed up, arrested him, and despite only a $1,000 bail, he couldn't afford it and thus stayed in jail for the next six months during the court case. He was there when she left for work one day and was gone when she returned, finding the police there picking through her stuff for evidence, and hasn't seen him since. And why would it be better for her to have taken our daughter into that whole situation, filed for divorce and then seek child support from me? Are you trying to convince me that it would have been better if she had taken our daughter from me into that situation and forced me to pay for it?? Am I, or any father really, supposed to agree with that?

Wilderness: How the heck am I supposed to hold her accountable for this three and a half years later??? What am I supposed to say to her when I get home at 6pm tonight, her in the kitchen finishing up dinner while our daughter is doing her homework at the table? "How despicable of you to leave our daughter with me three and a half years ago, in our family home, rather than forcibly move her into the crappy apartment you had on the bad side of town with your new alcoholic boyfriend! Why couldn't you have at least filed for divorce and made me pay you for it with child support too? Get out, you disgust me."


I can't even begin to understand what the point of these comments are supposed to tell me. Has anyone asked if she's been a great mother since moving back home? If she kept to her promise of seeing, speaking with or being involved with our daughter's life on a daily basis since she moved out back in the spring of 2010? I guess those things don't matter because she is female, so all that matters is that she didn't take her child from me?


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## LongWalk

CD,

Understand what you saying. The important thing to see here is that if were to divorce, even three years later, her abandonment of your daughter would count heavily against her in custody hearings. Throw in the criminality of her exOM, and we see the court likely restricting her to a non custodial role.

So the case against her is heavy. The swinging history would not save her. The judge and social worker investigators would shake their heads, but cheating is nothing anymore.

Road Scholar's thread, have you read it?


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## LostViking

She is a great mom and mother because of proximity only. I think what I am trying to get at is that, as long as your wife is in school and living with you, she will play the part of dutiful mom. 

As soon as she gets a job offer, she's going to leave again. That's just my prediction.


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## cdbaker

Oh yeah, I'm definitely aware of how things could have looked in court. You might recall that initially when she left (and this is actually valid in the context of whether she "abandoned" her daughter or not), I did file for divorce because I was afraid that she was going to take our daughter away. She wasn't in a very healthy state of mind at the time and had at one point angrily proclaimed that she would return the next day to take our daughter with her. So I quickly filed for divorce purely to get a temporary emergency custody order, which I received. So for the record, *I legally prevented my wife from removing our daughter from the marital home.* So she didn't really have the option of taking her with her. I have said this before here on TAM, but it's probably a dozen or so pages back or maybe on another thread, so I cant' blame anyone for not remembering. So as far as "abandonment", her defense in family court could have easily been that she couldn't legally take her.

And yes, in the six month period that we had a divorce case pending, I had a lawyer whip up a very strong position just in case it did end in an actual divorce and custody dispute. It was made pretty apparent that I would have likely received a very "favorable" custody order, likely for 100% residential custody (50% legal custody) and child support, similar to what I had in the temporary orders during that time.

As far as it being 3 years later... I kind of doubt the court would still find much of that relevant now, wouldn't you think? Especially since I dropped the case back then and she hasn't made any clear-cut bad parenting or otherwise "unstable" decisions since then.


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## wilderness

cdbaker said:


> Wow, ok, this went off in a complete other direction.
> 
> I'm struggling with the notion that the alternative to "abandoning her daughter" is taking our daughter with her to couch surf at various friends homes for a couple of weeks and then move her in to an apartment with a man she'd only known for about 45 days (who later turned out to be a pedophile, he had no convictions of any kind prior to that), immediately after telling her that her mommy and daddy were going to live apart for a while. Again, THAT was the alternative. I cannot see how that alternative would make her a better mom than leaving her in her home with me, where I maintained a stable and comforting environment for her, while committing to visit her, taking her out, or speaking to her over the phone nearly every single day.
> 
> She DID get a job shortly before she left. Full time making $8/hour. A "single" mom can't live on $8 an hour and afford an apartment, utilities, food/clothing, gas, car payment, etc. So she moved in with the other man who she was seeing. Every counselor I have spoken to and co-parenting book I have read says that you have to be extremely careful when introducing children to new boyfriends or girlfriends, and we both knew that our 6 year old daughter being introduced to Mommy's new boyfriend who she'd only known for less than two months, would not be a good idea, let alone making her live with him as well. Despite everything, she also did not yet want a divorce, so as long as I wasn't forcing one, she didn't actually want to go file for divorce.
> 
> I wish she hadn't left. I know she was selfish to blast out of the house the way she did, and it was certainly unwise and hurtful for her to immediately move in with a new man. She didn't feel that she had many options due to her limited income, and she trusted me with our daughter at home, ultimately believing it was in her BEST INTEREST to not be forced to move out of her home to live in less desirable circumstances (crappy apartment in bad area of town, best that she could afford) with Mom's new boyfriend who she didn't know. My daughter didn't even find out that her mom was leaving or that the marriage was in trouble until the day she left. Are all of you actually saying that she made the wrong decision to leave her with me??!
> 
> Why is there this assumption that a woman is automatically a horrible mom if she doesn't insist on taking her children with her, regardless of any other factors involved?! Why can't a woman recognize that she is not in a healthy place (emotionally, mentally, financially) to be the primary caretaker of a child and make, what I believe was, the right choice to leave her child in a stable environment with the other parent and then do her best to co-parent from a few miles away on the other side of town? Are we really saying that any woman who comes to a decision to separate from her husband for valid reasons is automatically a horrible human being who should be ashamed of herself if she chooses to let her child continue to sleep in her own bedroom in what she feels is a better situation, just because she won't be living there as well? Even though she would see, talk with or take her out nearly every single day???
> 
> Incidentally, my wife had a baby when she was 16 years old and gave him up to a family she knew who could not have children. That boy is now in 6th grade, is happy and healthy with his family. I guess this makes her a ****ty, cold-hearted, despicable human being and a terrible parent right?
> 
> 
> Karole: My wife DID get a job and try to support herself, but didn't make enough to be able to provide even 1/3 of the life that I was able to provide at our already established home. The other man had absolutely no convictions or even known accusations of having any interest in underage persons during her involvement with him. In no way, shape or form did she stay with him once the first notice of an accusation of pursuing the sexual relationship with the young girl came out, which was when he was arrested. Heck, the police showed up, arrested him, and despite only a $1,000 bail, he couldn't afford it and thus stayed in jail for the next six months during the court case. He was there when she left for work one day and was gone when she returned, finding the police there picking through her stuff for evidence, and hasn't seen him since. And why would it be better for her to have taken our daughter into that whole situation, filed for divorce and then seek child support from me? Are you trying to convince me that it would have been better if she had taken our daughter from me into that situation and forced me to pay for it?? Am I, or any father really, supposed to agree with that?
> 
> Wilderness: How the heck am I supposed to hold her accountable for this three and a half years later??? What am I supposed to say to her when I get home at 6pm tonight, her in the kitchen finishing up dinner while our daughter is doing her homework at the table? "How despicable of you to leave our daughter with me three and a half years ago, in our family home, rather than forcibly move her into the crappy apartment you had on the bad side of town with your new alcoholic boyfriend! Why couldn't you have at least filed for divorce and made me pay you for it with child support too? Get out, you disgust me."
> 
> 
> I can't even begin to understand what the point of these comments are supposed to tell me. Has anyone asked if she's been a great mother since moving back home? If she kept to her promise of seeing, speaking with or being involved with our daughter's life on a daily basis since she moved out back in the spring of 2010? I guess those things don't matter because she is female, so all that matters is that she didn't take her child from me?


Even though you are a smart guy, your wife seems to really have you fooled, man. You are making an argument that is a false dichotomy. It wasn't _either_ your wife leave your child with you _or_ she take her with her to couch surf. There was a very viable 3rd alternative, which was stay living in the family home as your wife. Why do you ignore this?

The comments are supposed to get you thinking and to hopefully change your perspective. In my opinion you have a totally distorted opinion of your wife that is not supported by the facts. I do not believe she is a good mother. I do not believe she is a good wife. I do not believe she is a good person. And I believe the facts and evidence support my position as opposed to yours.


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## cdbaker

Well of course she could have stayed. But I've already written about the myriad of issues that led her to the decision that she couldn't stay. Again, there are spouses who feel they are pushed to a breaking point in their marriages every day, to the point of making the decision to leave the marriage. For many, their justifications are very well supported and reasonable, and for others not so much. If you have read all of my posts going back to the beginning and feel that she did not have sufficient justifications for wanting out of the marriage, or that her feeling the need to escape was ... unsupported? Then maybe I see your point and I'll just have to disagree. I have always understood why she reached that breaking point, why she was ultimately desperate to escape, convinced that there was nothing she could do to make things better, convinced that I would not change either, etc., and most people who knew us well (family and friends) also understood and agreed that she wasn't crazy or irrational to have given up on the marriage.

Our marriage was an absolute mess. I was an ******* and just didn't get it. She was immature and allowed herself to commit adultery rather than make the (slightly) more honorable decision to just file for divorce and move out or try to get me to move out. Naturally when anyone gets married they commit to stick with it through thick and thin, but for most people there is a point at which we understand or even agree that someone should throw in the towel. That point or line in the sand is different for everyone, but for both of our families and friends who know us, they agree that our marriage reached a point where divorce not only seemed like the most reasonable course of action, but also that it was inevitable. By the summer of 2010, I don't think any of them would have faulted her or felt her decision to give up on the marriage was unreasonable, including our christian marriage counselor.

She could have chosen to get on a plane and move to Antarctica as well, but from her perspective, that would have been unreasonable and not beneficial to anyone involved. Remaining committed to what she and others felt was a failed marriage with a terrible husband who had proven thus far to be incapable of change, seemed equally unreasonable and not beneficial to anyone involved.

Seriously, not that this should surprise many of you, but I think nearly every single person who knew us well was actively saying to us, "You two need to get a divorce, its just not working and I don't see it getting any better." So was "stay living in the family home as your wife" really a "viable 3rd alternative?" At that point in time, I think you and I would be the only two people who feel that way.


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## wilderness

Whoever coined the phrase "love is blind"
was thinking of you.

Stop defending this woman. Perhaps she is not all bad but if you look at the facts and evidence in the aggregate it's crystal clear that your wife is not a good person. I find it ironic that you make the argument that all of the people in your life believed a certain way and therefore it makes their belief true, yet all of the people on this forum believe a certain way and you dismiss their beliefs out of hand.
Food for thought.


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## caladan

I don't think she's a bad woman, not at all. At the same time, I have no idea what CD is thinking.

I'll say it again - the odds of your wife coming back to you in any reasonable wifely fashion are next to nothing.

But - if I'm being honest, I have no issues with your wife at all. This whole thread, is all about you, your refusal to fix yourself, and your constant begging for love. 

You need to get some therapy. Leave your wife to herself. Let her do whatever she wants. You need to fix yourself. And please, don't try to justify your actions as being true to your marriage, that's a weak excuse - I've even seen you going to other threads to accuse people of always advising others to leave their marriages.

There's something broken about you, regardless of your really impressive ability to twist a disaster into a possible victory. There's nothing in this marriage for you, and it isn't even your wife's fault - she's simply trying her best to sort herself out. It's all your own fault.

Accept that your marriage is over. Sit down and have a talk - assist her if you can, hell, I give my well above what the mediator advised every month, and still send something extra if she needs it. Find a situation that suits both of you - me and the ex currently co-habit because we believe it works best for the kids. But you need to stop holding on to this dream of a reconciliation, or agree to her terms and conditions.

She doesn't want to sleep with you. Fact. If she becomes financially stable, she'll probably leave you. Fact. You have absolutely no respect for yourself (which is the real reason you're trying to fix this), so fix that. Fixing yourself is more likely to fix your marriage than any negotiation or "talks" will.


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## cdbaker

Wilderness: I don't dismiss your opinion out of hand, but I do give more credence to a local friend or family member who has experienced and witnessed the events in my marriage first hand. Who wouldn't? Whose story would you put more faith in, a war reporter who rides into battle with the 1st Division of the US Army, or the blogger who tries to share the same story based on what he read from the war reporter? That isn't a slight against you guys at all. All you guys have is my side of the story, from my perspective alone, in my enormously long winded writing style. That's true of anyone here on TAM, we always only get one perception of one side of a story, so it's generally best to offer thoughts/advice that recognize that there could be other elements involved that we aren't aware of that could completely change the situation. Frankly right now I am more apt to think that I've just done a crappy job of trying to explain things here, and have probably allowed my own ego to twist things in such a way as to make her and I out to be something we're not.

Caladan: Maybe I do need to return to independent (or try group) counseling. Not long after she left back in 2010, I started IC about once a week, sometimes every other week, and kept at it for about nine months. I learned a lot about myself in those sessions, learned to forgive myself for my mistakes, forgive her as well, and see a lot of things very differently now. Since then I've read a lot of very good books, including most of the ones that are often mentioned here on TAM. I've also become good friends with our old marriage counselor who I still speak to about my marital stuff from time to time, and have another very good friend who is a pastoral counselor who also offers insight. But certainly there might be more I could gain from more IC, and I will consider that.


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## cdbaker

I think nearly all the advice I've received here in the last week or so, or likely longer, has involved some variation of "Kick your horrible wife out, file for divorce immediately and never look back!"

I posted this in the reconciliation forum because that is precisely what my wife and I are trying to do. I would appreciate comments/thoughts/advice that might be helpful towards THAT purpose, reconciliation. I'm tired of trying to explain why I want to reconcile with her. I know many of you are trying to be helpful when you suggest that I shouldn't, likely out of a belief that we will fail, that I'm wasting my time, that the odds aren't in my favor, etc. Let me be clear, I'm quite fully aware of my situation, the odds, etc. and am perfectly comfortable with the possibility (or even likelihood as some of you may see it) of failing. This has been my life for several years now and I still have no regrets, and believe that I won't have any regrets down the road should things not work out the way I hope they will.

There is no need to repeat over and over how you think I am crazy, fooled, manipulated, etc. Please consider myself duly put on notice that TAM believes me to be crazy and that my wife is a *****, ****, terrible mother and wife, and incapable of ever becoming more than those things. I get it.


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## karole

Good luck CD.


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## caladan

cdbaker said:


> I think nearly all the advice I've received here in the last week or so, or likely longer, has involved some variation of "Kick your horrible wife out, file for divorce immediately and never look back!"
> 
> I posted this in the reconciliation forum because that is precisely what my wife and I are trying to do. I would appreciate comments/thoughts/advice that might be helpful towards THAT purpose, reconciliation. I'm tired of trying to explain why I want to reconcile with her. I know many of you are trying to be helpful when you suggest that I shouldn't, likely out of a belief that we will fail, that I'm wasting my time, that the odds aren't in my favor, etc. Let me be clear, I'm quite fully aware of my situation, the odds, etc. and am perfectly comfortable with the possibility (or even likelihood as some of you may see it) of failing. This has been my life for several years now and I still have no regrets, and believe that I won't have any regrets down the road should things not work out the way I hope they will.
> 
> There is no need to repeat over and over how you think I am crazy, fooled, manipulated, etc. Please consider myself duly put on notice that TAM believes me to be crazy and that my wife is a *****, ****, terrible mother and wife, and incapable of ever becoming more than those things. I get it.


Good point.

I still feel that should be secondary - you can fix yourself and not her.

My suggestion of course, would be to get on the 180. You've told her what you want. No need to discuss it further. Start working on becoming the best you that you can be. Put yourself in a position where other women find you desirable. Negotiate from a postition of strength.


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## cdbaker

caladan said:


> Good point.
> 
> I still feel that should be secondary - you can fix yourself and not her.
> 
> My suggestion of course, would be to get on the 180. You've told her what you want. No need to discuss it further. Start working on becoming the best you that you can be. Put yourself in a position where other women find you desirable. Negotiate from a postition of strength.


This is good advice, thank you. This makes a lot of sense.


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## LongWalk

:iagree:

CD, you're a smart guy and you describe things well. The portrait of what has transpired does show that life and relationships are complicated.

What makes me pessimistic is the threesome/swinging stuff, now way long ago. That occurred because you sex life tanked and you wanted to spice it up. Actually, if swinging is going to work, i.e., give pleasure without destroying the marriage, one would assume that good relationship and decent sex life would be necessary. Otherwise... well, just look what happened.

Now there is no still no connect. Let's not call your wife bad, but instead say that she is damaged. Why do you want to get reentangled with her if she has no passion for you and does not seem to have any deep stake in your marriage aside from the need for shelter.

Does she admit to being starved for love and intimacy?

You should 180.


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## Mr Blunt

> *By CDBaker*
> I posted this in the reconciliation forum because that is precisely what my wife and I are trying to do. I would appreciate comments/thoughts/advice that might be helpful towards THAT purpose, reconciliation.



Listed below is what I think may be helpful

*If you can come to the acceptance that:*

1	You and your wife will never have a good sexual marriage; acceptable maybe but not good. You both have a sexual history that takes away some intimacy.

2	You and your wife will have to get a lot better in order to have a mediocre marriage. That means that you will have to get a LOTS of professional help

3	You and your wife have damaged some of your relationship beyond repair

4	Your optimism about your relationship will not be fully realized


*If you and your wife can adjust your selves to accept the limitations listed above then that would help you to reconcile*. I have a family member that reconciled after 3 years of separation and they are still together. However, they accepted the 4 limitations as listed above. Their sex mistakes did not include wife swapping or sex with a pervert but they did make plenty of sexual mistakes. Their marriage is void of deep love and admiration but they do function as a married couple. They go out to eat together, visit the children, and spoil the grandchild. He lives mostly in his man cave and she is wrapped up in lady things.
They get offended and angry very easily.


On the bright side they do not cheat on each other anymore and they have now a comfortable financial life. Maybe their hitting their 60s has something to do with that!







> *By CDBaker*
> "I want to have an absolute awesome, kick-ass, the envy of all who know us, marriage


.



*Having that above as your expectation is a HUGE mistake!! * 
You and your wife have too much damage to accomplish that goal
You may possibly keep your marriage together but you will have to gear down your expectations


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## sidney2718

wilderness said:


> Whoever coined the phrase "love is blind"
> was thinking of you.
> 
> Stop defending this woman. Perhaps she is not all bad but if you look at the facts and evidence in the aggregate it's crystal clear that your wife is not a good person. I find it ironic that you make the argument that all of the people in your life believed a certain way and therefore it makes their belief true, yet all of the people on this forum believe a certain way and you dismiss their beliefs out of hand.
> Food for thought.


I don't agree. Life is difficult. Every case is different. Folks cannot solve their problems by relying on cold rules that must be applied instantly.

I believe that CD is aware of the problems his marriage faces. He _chooses_ to risk them because he feels that the risk is worth it. I think it is our job to be here for him, to make him aware of the risks, and to act as sounding boards for him. We have done that. Going beyond all that to judge the moral worth of people we've never met strikes me as going a bit far.

My message to CD is to keep the faith and move forward. If a major course change is needed, you will know and we will be here to support you.


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## sidney2718

cdbaker said:


> I think nearly all the advice I've received here in the last week or so, or likely longer, has involved some variation of "Kick your horrible wife out, file for divorce immediately and never look back!"
> 
> I posted this in the reconciliation forum because that is precisely what my wife and I are trying to do. I would appreciate comments/thoughts/advice that might be helpful towards THAT purpose, reconciliation. I'm tired of trying to explain why I want to reconcile with her. I know many of you are trying to be helpful when you suggest that I shouldn't, likely out of a belief that we will fail, that I'm wasting my time, that the odds aren't in my favor, etc. Let me be clear, I'm quite fully aware of my situation, the odds, etc. and am perfectly comfortable with the possibility (or even likelihood as some of you may see it) of failing. This has been my life for several years now and I still have no regrets, and believe that I won't have any regrets down the road should things not work out the way I hope they will.
> 
> There is no need to repeat over and over how you think I am crazy, fooled, manipulated, etc. Please consider myself duly put on notice that TAM believes me to be crazy and that my wife is a *****, ****, terrible mother and wife, and incapable of ever becoming more than those things. I get it.


I hear you loud and clear. I'm here for you. Vent away. You have my sympathy and I sincerely hope that it works out for you and your wife.


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## cdbaker

Been away for a week or so with holiday madness and being swamped at work...

LongWalk: Yeah in retrospect I know full well that any "successful" swinging type relationship needs an incredibly strong relationship with fantastic communication skills to begin with or be doomed to failure. (Though at this point, from everything I've seen and read on such relationships, I think nearly all of them are doomed eventually) So yes, I had it backwards in an extreme way.

I'd say it's very fair to call my wife "damaged." Let's also be clear, I'm not deciding whether or not to get "reentangled" with her, I already am and have been. Married for over ten years now, working on reconciliation for over a year, and living together again for five months now. She would say, and I believe this, that she is committed to the marriage but she just needs to heal from our past broken marriage and the events of the last few years naturally. She agrees that there needs to be consistent growth in our relationship and that needs to include all aspects of a typical healthy relationship. She suggested that we take an evening once a month or so to sit down and evaluate where we are at and how we are feeling about the pace of things. 

Passion... Does she feel a passion for me right now? Since most people I think, myself included, interpret passion in a relationship as involving intense desire for physical and/or intimate connections with a partner, I would say she isn't there yet. Is she passionate about our marriage? I would say she is, in that she does make efforts to show her commitment to the marriage every day, and shows that she too wants it to work. Her conversations with others confirm that as well.

As far as being "starved for love and intimacy" I'm not sure if she has said so specifically, but I think she has indicated that she is sort of afraid of love and intimacy, feeling that such desires in the past have always resulted in her being betrayed or hurt. She has said that she doesn't believe she can feel a desire for intimacy with me until she has healed from her past and can see that I am trustworthy, meaning that she can trust that I won't hurt her again the way I did in the past. She does say that she loves me, and certainly feels the love that I show for her.

As far as the 180, I don't think it makes sense when there is nothing that has clearly instigated a need for it. No major event that might trigger such a response such as an affair, a divorce request, moving out, a declining relationship, etc. Without a cause or a "trigger," I imagine the 180 would come off as me becoming an ******* overnight. Plus doing so would go against statements I've made over the last six months. In her view, I imagine she would question why the sudden disinterest in her and the marriage when she has been consistently proving her commitment to bettering the marriage and I have acknowledged such? I think the 180 would make sense if things were getting increasingly worse or if there was a trigger event of some kind, but why 180 when things are consistently improving?


Mr. Blunt: You make some very good points. In my conversation with her I did absolutely say that I want to have an incredible marriage some day. Understand that I don't believe that an "incredible" marriage needs to involve nightly sex for the duration of the marriage. Heck I'd be very happy with twice a week, and honestly I believe that is very possible.

Regarding your 4 "limitations," here are my thoughts:

1. Not Good - Acceptable Sex life: I can accept this to a degree. No I don't think my definition of what a "great" sex life would look like is possible here. I'm very ok with that. A 6-8 times per month "acceptable" sex life would be very, well, acceptable to me. I can handle that. If it becomes a 2-4 times per month "not good" sex life, then I could live with that too if there aren't any other major issues.
2. Will have to get a lot better/Professional help: Yep I can accept that too. We need to have personal and relational growth, likely with one or both of us receiving some degree of professional help. Will have more to say on this below...
3. Some parts of our relationship are permanently damaged: Yep I can accept. There are negative things that have happened in our relationship that we can never undo completely, certain pains or slight mistrust that can be reduced to minimal levels but might never go away completely.
4. My optimism for the relationship is doomed: I'm sort of the eternal optimist. I realize that my optimist hopes are likely unrealistic, and can accept that my marriage will not likely turn out exactly the way I'd like it to. I'm perfectly willing to accept that even though I might be hoping for a 98% A+ marriage (allowing 2% for the permanent damage parts mentioned above), an 88% B+ marriage is far more likely, and I might need to accept as low as an 80% B- marriage. So yes, I can accept that things will likely turn out worse than I am optimistically hoping they will.

I hope that answers those questions, and I do appreciate your different approach here.


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## cdbaker

Update: Since opening up to her a few times several weeks ago, things have continued to improve quite a bit. Getting several hugs and kisses per day is now the norm, and she has since said that she is much more comfortable with this now. She is still a little uncomfortable with being nude around me, but has relaxed a lot in that time to where she now only takes her underwear with her into the bathroom to change clothes after a shower instead of her whole outfit, and has said she is comfortable with me being in the bathroom while she is showering. (Like if I need to shave/brush teeth while she is in there for example) She has also said that a big part of her shyness now is that she is very self conscious about her weight. Before the separation mess, she was about 125lbs (at 5'4", her figure was perfect!) and was about 138 when she moved back home in June and now is in the low 140's. Her job since last summer plus clinicals has meant lots more fast food meals and less time for exercise unfortunately. Without saying so directly, I got the impression that she doesn't want to be ~20lbs "overweight" or more than she was when I last saw her naked, when I get to see her naked again. Of course, I still find her to be amazingly beautiful right now, so I'm not concerned with the weight gain at all, but of course I don't think that would make many women in that situation feel that much better about it. With school ending in less than two weeks, she says she will embark on much healthier eating and working out more.

It's also worth noting that since I read MMSP 2011 back in September, I have actually lost 15lbs as of this morning. (I am 5'11" and was about 213lbs. Not obese, but certainly overweight.) My goal is to get to 188lbs, which was my weight in my last year of Air Force ROTC back in 2006, when I was most physically fit. So I can understand her being a little self conscious when she feels like her "sex rank" is decreasing while mine is increasing at the same time.

During those in depth relationship discussions we had several weeks ago, I asked her to take some time to seriously consider whether or not she is still depressed and whether returning to therapy and/or antidepressants would be beneficial for her and our family. Our daughter has pointed out to both of us that "Mommy" is often very grumpy, quick to anger and/or distant, and she knows that. Late this past weekend, she shared with me that after some thought, she does feel like maybe the incredible stress of her final semester of school, plus our reconciliation on top of it, has made her exhibit signs of depression, be quick to anger, be more distant from us, etc. and decided to go to the doctor about it on Monday. The doctor gave her a prescription for a mood relaxer of some kind (can't remember the name of it for the life of me... Lorazepam I think... to be taken as needed only) and a prescription for Zoloft, which she used to take regularly several years ago. She has battled depression to some degree since high school. 

In just the two days since starting these, there has been a noticeable difference in her mood and general attitude. She's been instigating the hugs/kisses herself (rather than just accepting them from me), has more actively sought "family time" with our daughter and I, and been far more engaging in conversation. I've long thought that she needed to go back on an antidepressant of some kind (though I know one of the side effects is a reduced libido...) so I'm glad to see her being back on Zoloft. I'm not really sure about the mood stabilizer though, and I hope it doesn't become an issue. If any of you have experience with those drugs, please do share.

The holiday break last week went great as well. I enjoyed a couple of opportunities for us to be alone together, talk a lot, share more "instances of physical touch," etc. So far this is shaping up to be a great holiday season.


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## ThreeStrikes

I think she views you as a "daddy" figure in her life, not a husband/lover.

And if you speak to her as you've indicated in some of your long posts (most recently the FB chat), then you are filling that role in her life admirably.

Are either of you in IC?

Have you asked yourself why you want to be with a woman who left you for a child molester?

Do you feel you need to rescue her?

Who is taking the initiative with your R, you or her?


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## angstire

cdbaker said:


> In just the two days since starting these, there has been a noticeable difference in her mood and general attitude. She's been instigating the hugs/kisses herself (rather than just accepting them from me), has more actively sought "family time" with our daughter and I, and been far more engaging in conversation. I've long thought that she needed to go back on an antidepressant of some kind (though I know one of the side effects is a reduced libido...) so I'm glad to see her being back on Zoloft. I'm not really sure about the mood stabilizer though, and I hope it doesn't become an issue. If any of you have experience with those drugs, please do share.


I do. X2 went on anti-depressants last year of nursing school. Was also quick to anger, didn't spend a lot of time with the kids and was distracted by school. She used anti-depressents to make it the last few months before she finished school and then enacted her plan to leave. I hope I'm wrong about your situation, but I've seen this movie before. I did not like the ending.


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## wilderness

So she was in shape while she was having sex with a child molester, but she can't be in shape for you? If I were you I would demand that she lose the weight within a reasonable time frame.


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## LongWalk

Instead of issuing an ultimatum, it might be better to sign her up for a zumba, spinning or power step class. Weight can be unsightly but it having poor muscle tone that is unpleasant to look. A little flab is okay if a woman is in overall good health.

When you sleep at night do you cuddle? Could you hold her and whisper in her ear? Even if you tell her some jokes, it might be away to get closer to having sex.


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## cdbaker

ThreeStrikes, I've answered nearly all of your questions before already. No need to rescue her, she was doing fine by herself as she lived by herself for about 15 months after the OM got arrested. In that time she opened up to me again as she emerged from the fog she was in with the controlling OM and chose to give our marriage another chance and come home. We're not in IC right now, but she has recently opened up to that possibility for herself. I was in IC for about 9 months after she moved out back in 2010, working to address a lot of issues I had going on. Prior to this past month or so, I was probably taking the lead on the reconciliation, but in the last few weeks I would say that role has reversed a bit as I chose to ease off on the pressure a bit in order to show that I'm not going to be the only one committed to the marriage for long. Again, please refer to the prior post where I asked for assistance on moving the marriage in the direction of reconciliation only. That's the only reason I'm here.

Angstire: Thank you for sharing, and I'm sorry again for your having had to go through that. In our case, I do believe it is mostly the school that is at fault for her increased feelings of stress and frustration at home. I say that because she was much happier, less stressed, more involved, etc. in the couple of months that she was home this summer before starting school up again in August. She is also right on the borderline of passing or failing, so each test she takes right now has the potential of preventing her from graduation and causing her to have to retake the entire program, so her stress level is likely higher than it has ever been. One way or the other, I'll know for sure ten days from now when her class graduates. So far she has only taken one half-dose of the mood relaxer, on Monday the day before her big test. (which she passed and was in a wonderful mood for the rest of the day)

As for Zoloft, like I mentioned before she has been on them for years without any trouble and I really do think they helped her. She just went off of them for the few years we were separated due to their expense and, for a while, her losing health insurance when I refused to pay for it for her. I'm definitely hopeful that they will help now and she is doing it the right way by slowly increasing the dosage over a period of four weeks rather than going on it all at once.


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## cdbaker

Good lord Wilderness, you are a hard man to satisfy I suspect...

No I'm not going to demand that she lose 15-20 pounds. It's not like she promised to stay at 120lbs for the rest of her life when we got married, it's not like she's failed me or the marriage in some way by putting on a little weight. Heck I was 170lbs when we got married and no one expects me to go back to that. And she was 125lbs back in early 2010 which was before she was in school so she had lots more free time for staying active and worked at a job that provided free relatively healthy meals four out of five days a week. Besides, probably 10lbs of the 18lbs or so that she has gained since then came while she was with the OM.

Seriously, I've gotta ask, what man out there should ever feel rightfully entitled to issue an ultimatum to his wife to lose 15-20lbs, or else?! I can't imagine any marriage counselor advising that, ever.

LongWalk: Yep she has plans to start working out with a few of her classmates right after graduation, who have added a few pounds themselves over the last two years. They are all women btw. In the fall she and I both did a CrossFit workout program once a week as well, and intend to do it again in the spring. We have also started doing a lot more home cooked meals, especially lunches to take to school/work with us. All of that has been partly responsible for my having lost the 15lbs I did, where as for her, she just stopped gaining weight in that same timeframe but hasn't really been able to lose much more than a pound or so.

At night there is some limited cuddling. Limited meaning it's usually she or I just draping an arm over the other while going to sleep, until one of us roll over to really fall asleep. Not really full on spooning or anything, not full bodies pressed together completely, full pajamas on too. We do talk most nights and joke around some, but usually it's not a whispering thing. Both of those elements are new in the last two months or so though, so again, progress.


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## angstire

I hope I'm wrong and that things continue to get better for you after she graduates. There's more to a relationship than sex, but once that is happening between you, you'll know things are on the mend. 

My situation is not yours, but I see parallels. Best of luck and I hope the outcome is good for your whole family.


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## wilderness

May I ask a question? Who do you think is better looking objectively between you and your wife? Perhaps the solution to your problems is for you to hit the gym. Athol Kay would probably say that your marriage needs to be 'destabilized' before it can be saved. This happens naturally when you raise your sex rank higher than hers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThreeStrikes

wilderness said:


> May I ask a question? Who do you think is better looking objectively between you and your wife? Perhaps the solution to your problems is for you to hit the gym. Athol Kay would probably say that your marriage needs to be 'destabilized' before it can be saved. This happens naturally when you raise your sex rank higher than hers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She's clearly not into him. At all. We all see it, he doesn't. <shrug>

CD wants R. I think it's a pipe dream. 

Good luck, fella.


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## caladan

ThreeStrikes said:


> She's clearly not into him. At all. We all see it, he doesn't. <shrug>
> 
> CD wants R. I think it's a pipe dream.
> 
> Good luck, fella.


I actually think he does see it. He just wants R regardless. 

CD - it's funny though, you've actually done the opposite of "the Fog" - you've convinced yourself that R by any means (or measure) necessary is worth it. 

Regardless of how much I hope this works out for me, there's a part of me that wonders if you'll keep updating this thread if things go pear-shaped. Either way, this is certainly a case I'm interested in quite a bit. Almost emotionally vested if I'm being honest.


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## cdbaker

wilderness said:


> May I ask a question? Who do you think is better looking objectively between you and your wife? Perhaps the solution to your problems is for you to hit the gym. Athol Kay would probably say that your marriage needs to be 'destabilized' before it can be saved. This happens naturally when you raise your sex rank higher than hers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Eh, I'd say it's an even match. I think most of my friends would call both of us a 7, but that's a guess. Neither of us are really overweight or any weird issues appearance-wise. I think I mentioned though that I read Athol Kay's book, found it very informative and have absolutely been working on improving my sex rank over the last two months or so. I haven't been able to hit the gym much, but I have lost about 15lbs so far, I eat better and I do some basic exercises at home. I definitely think I've improved a bit in that time, and I'm sure it'll help.


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## cdbaker

caladan said:


> I actually think he does see it. He just wants R regardless.
> 
> CD - it's funny though, you've actually done the opposite of "the Fog" - you've convinced yourself that R by any means (or measure) necessary is worth it.
> 
> Regardless of how much I hope this works out for me, there's a part of me that wonders if you'll keep updating this thread if things go pear-shaped. Either way, this is certainly a case I'm interested in quite a bit. Almost emotionally vested if I'm being honest.


I'm not interested in reconciling at any cost. In fact late last fall I had hired a lawyer, had all the paperwork drawn up, and (I'm not kidding here) on the very morning that the lawyer was going to file the divorce papers, I got a call from my company and was laid off. I spoke with my lawyer who advised me that being unemployed could certainly impact my case for a fair custody agreement, so she advised that I quickly try to find a new job before proceeding, if there was no other reason to hurry. It took me about two months to line up a good new job, but in that two months (and really the two or three weeks before getting laid off) my wife really started actively making it clear to me that she wanted us to have another chance together. She started calling and texting more often, spending more time with me and our daughter at our house, inviting me to outings with her friends and all of her family activities again, etc. 

So by the time I started the new job in January, the lawyer called to ask if we were going to move forward with the paperwork and I asked her to put it on hold. I just had a hard time choosing to go ahead down that road when everything she was saying and showing me was that she was a new person from the woman who left years earlier and that she honestly wanted us to try again. It wasnt' a sudden turnaround by any stretch. In fact, when I asked her about this a few weeks ago, she said that from her perspective, she had decided to start working on reconciling beginning early last Summer, but I didn't get that impression from her until late October. I think if she had been far more sudden/direct about it, I probably would have been very suspicious of her intentions

So that brings me back to now. Again, my marriage isn't ideal right now because we aren't having sex yet. We also aren't fighting, she contributes to the household, I get a hug and kiss every morning before work/when I get home from work/before bed, she supports me in little ways just as I do for her, we have good communication on a daily basis which is improving every day, she is a good mom to our daughter, we do family activities together several times per week and in the month of December, every single night and we have fun together. I'd say just as importantly, we forgave each other a long time ago for our failings and since then I can now say that probably 90% of my trust in her has been restored. I do not feel the need to check on her all the time, wonder where she is or who she is talking to, I never really have moments of wondering if I can believe her when she tells me anything, and I haven't seen any of the bad habits that she was involved with before she left in 2010 for about two years now. I'm not a fool either, I do keep my eyes wide open for red flags and know how to spot the signs, but by this point I really don't think there will be any problems again.

So my present reality is that I am happy, for now. I'm happy because I can honestly say that I am pleased with about 80% of my marriage right now. Frankly, I'm not sure if most married individuals could say that at any given time right now. I believe that 10-15% of that 20% that I'm not yet satisfied with is related to the lack of sex/intimacy issues, but with the progress made in the last year or so, which has accelerated recently, I do believe that area will improve. If I find that the sex/intimacy issue is no better one year from today, then I'm sure my feelings will certainly be different. That leaves 5-10% that, as I think I explained yesterday in response to Mr. Blunt's comment, that I just accept will probably never be great. With that said, I feel confident that I could be happy with 90+% marriage satisfaction.


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## mupostori

"With me, it is sort of like being asked to try to fall back in love with your former abuser"

There in lies your problem. Her view of you is former abuser not husband. You might think you are making progress but if this is still her view of you after all these months ,you are going nowhere slowly . 

What are you doing to sort her libido issues .

I just had to drop this scripture because you are really living it ,keep the good work 

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.


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## cdbaker

Well, I think she's become quite comfortable with me in most respects. At the same time, I think she's been betrayed so many times now by literally every man she has ever become romantically involved with that she has just closed herself off emotionally as a sort of defensive mechanism. Sexually speaking, she's felt nothing but used by every man. Lied to, fooled, manipulated, etc. I know for a while before we began our R, she would frequently have lots of "man hating" conversation with girlfriends, and I can't completely blame her.

I can't remember how long ago I hypothesized that she might just see me as her "former abuser" but I'm not really sure if that is the case. That might add to it, but truthfully more and more I have been thinking that the sexual relationship has been a problem not just because of how I failed her years ago, but simply because I am a man, or even more specifically, simply because I desire her sexually at all. I think she's just become so incredibly protective, as a natural response to wanting to prevent being hurt yet again, that she's distrustful of opening up sexually to anyone. Taking that defensive measure a step further, she avoids anything that could possibly LEAD to a sexual situation. Examples: Cuddling, spooning, allowing me to even see her naked, etc. Basically imagine anything that has ever turned a man on, and she probably avoids it whenever possible.

One thing I decided to try after Conrad pointed me to a thread by MEM11363 on Mark72's "Desperate" thread is lowering the emotional "thermostat" of the relationship. I view it as sort of a semi-180. For me, my wife and I are getting along very well, building trust, working together, etc., but I've been extremely dissatisfied not just with our lack of a sexual relationship, but with the emotional/intimacy level overall. So back on December 19th, I decided to immediately cease any form of emotional/intimate gesture of any kind. I'm still nice to her, helpful, willing to talk/listen, do things together if asked, etc., but I'm not longer saying "I love you" or Goodbye before work, Goodnight before bed, not gesturing for or requesting hugs/kisses of any kind, no touch of any kind in fact. Basically, if it would be awkward/wrong/gross for me to do it with a male friend, then I'm not doing it with my wife. Like living as a roommate intentionally.

I guess the goal of the plan is to bring down the emotional temperature of the relationship to a level where even she desires a little more warmth, to see if she will start pursuing it instead of just me, and then maybe raise it from there. During the course of this experiment, there were several clear cut "Intimacy should happen" days as well, namely our 10-year wedding anniversary (!!!) on Dec. 20th, Christmas Day, and New Years Eve (Kiss at midnight?).

Now a little over three weeks in, I've held to it. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, but there's been virtually zero contact. No hugs, no kisses, no nothing really, until a few days ago. It's a small thing, and could be nothing, but a few nights ago in bed after we turned out the lights and rolled over to go to sleep, she reached out and put her hand on my back and simply said Goodnight. I responded Goodnight as well (I'll respond, but haven't initiated it since the 19th) and she then removed her hand to go to sleep. Honestly, that might be the first time she's initiated any form of touch since the R started last summer.

So is that a big thing? A small thing? I don't know. Today I came home for lunch and when I was getting up to leave for work, she actually got up looking as though she was coming to give me a hug. I continued my motion to grab my coat and headed for the door. (I figured that I wanted to see her complete the motion of her coming to me for the hug, rather than meeting her half way) When she saw me heading for the door though, she sat back down, maybe looking a tiny bit dejected. I don't want her to feel rejected, and I sort of feel bad about not meeting her halfway, but she did definitely get up for the hug. (She stood up from the table, took a step or two towards me and after I turned towards the door, she stepped back to sit down again while watching me. Did nothing else while she was up)

So who knows how this will play out. I'd like to give it 30 days (to 1/19) but after that, I'm not sure what the next step will be. Sitting her down to tell her what I have been doing seems like a very beta thing to me. I'm hopeful that I'll see some more progress in the next week to help me figure that out. Heck, if this goes on too much longer she'll probably start to think that I am cheating on her, if she isn't already wondering about that.


----------



## wilderness

Denial is not a river in Egypt.

Your wife is not attracted to you. This has nothing at all to do with the reasons you describe. If those reasons were valid, why was she able to have repeated sex with a child molester?

Why are you not holding your wife accountable? She is obligated to have sex with her husband, it's a part of the marriage contract.


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## cdbaker

Wilderness, I see that your account says "Banned". I'm not sure if that means permanently or why it was banned, but anyways...

Maybe she isn't attracted to me, I don't know. I firmly believe that she used to be for many years, but maybe all the emotional damage of the last few years, inflicted by me, herself, POSOM, etc., has made her incapable of being attracted to me now.

Or maybe it's not an attraction issue and it's just an issue of all of that emotional damage making her struggle with showing affection right now. I think I've said it before, but I get the impression that if she and I weren't in a relationship, that she wouldn't be interested in pursuing anyone else right now. She knows it herself, that she is just not capable of meeting all of the expectations of being a wife right now. She's even said as much to me directly, and that I can either accept her as she is now and work with her to rebuild the trust necessary for her to be a loving wife again, or move on if I am unwilling to wait for her.

And I can't say this enough. You can't just go home to a woman whom you and others have put through emotional hell for years and demand sex based on the fact that she once signed a marriage certificate with you. A weak-willed woman might give in once or twice but the marriage will be doomed if you treat your spouse like that. A strong willed woman will tell you to go to hell and file for divorce. My wife would be the latter. I agree that sex is an absolutely necessary component of a healthy marriage, but there has to be some flexibility when you have extreme circumstances like this, especially if you are the cause of a sizable portion of those issues.


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## LongWalk

But at some point you have to be able to stroke her face and hug.


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## firebelly1

cdbaker said:


> wilderness, i see that your account says "banned". I'm not sure if that means permanently or why it was banned, but anyways...
> 
> And i can't say this enough. You can't just go home to a woman whom you and others have put through emotional hell for years and demand sex based on the fact that she once signed a marriage certificate with you.


thank you!


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## wilderness

cdbaker said:


> Wilderness, I see that your account says "Banned". I'm not sure if that means permanently or why it was banned, but anyways...
> 
> Maybe she isn't attracted to me, I don't know. I firmly believe that she used to be for many years, but maybe all the emotional damage of the last few years, inflicted by me, herself, POSOM, etc., has made her incapable of being attracted to me now.
> 
> Or maybe it's not an attraction issue and it's just an issue of all of that emotional damage making her struggle with showing affection right now. I think I've said it before, but I get the impression that if she and I weren't in a relationship, that she wouldn't be interested in pursuing anyone else right now. She knows it herself, that she is just not capable of meeting all of the expectations of being a wife right now. She's even said as much to me directly, and that I can either accept her as she is now and work with her to rebuild the trust necessary for her to be a loving wife again, or move on if I am unwilling to wait for her.
> 
> And I can't say this enough. You can't just go home to a woman whom you and others have put through emotional hell for years and demand sex based on the fact that she once signed a marriage certificate with you. A weak-willed woman might give in once or twice but the marriage will be doomed if you treat your spouse like that. A strong willed woman will tell you to go to hell and file for divorce. My wife would be the latter. I agree that sex is an absolutely necessary component of a healthy marriage, but there has to be some flexibility when you have extreme circumstances like this, especially if you are the cause of a sizable portion of those issues.


I don't believe that you put her through emotional hell for years. And even if you did, you have been reconciling for MONTHS without sex. MONTHS. Ridiculous. I think yours is the saddest story on TAM, and you don't even see it.


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## LongWalk

She came back to your in search of what exactly?

If the answer is a return to best part of your relationship before you tried to make her more interested in sex. You may have gotten there. The LD normality has returned.

CD,

Are you working out and in good shape. Mach's advice about the physical attributes affecting the liminal desire of women is probably sound, don't you think?

Can you make her laugh?


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## cdbaker

Wilderness, we'll agree to disagree on what I put her through or not. I also understand that she failed me in many ways too, and has apologized to me for it as well. As far as how long it takes to heal, the best marriage counselor we had once told us that it generally takes about as long as the bad treatment lasted, so several years in this case. Granted, I don't want it to last that long, and I don't believe I'll be able to actually give it that much time either.

In any case, I agree something needs to change or accelerate. For roughly the past month, I've been trying the strategy of lowering the relational "thermostat" of the marriage. Just not pursuing her at all, not seeking any form of physical affection, verbal emotional support, etc., and rarely offering any either unless sought. I guess the idea was that if I like it to be 85 degree's and she wants it to be 75 degrees, then my reducing it to 60 degree's might make her uncomfortable and want to seek me out to raise it up from there. So far I don't think that's really happened. She's seemed mostly content with it all, though I do think we're getting along a little better as a result. But there hasn't really been any success in trying to trigger her to pursue me or seek physical affection.

LongWalk: Yes I am still getting into better shape. Not really having much time to work out, but I've been losing weight steadily and am below 200lbs for the first time in a few years. (I think I peaked at 215lbs, so I was never enormous) I've also been actively committed to more alpha style activities at home by fixing up the house, building a bathroom in our basement, performing car maintenance and repairs for both our aging cars, etc. I hope to be able to resume some excercise when the basement project is complete.

As far as what she came back for... I think she came back because she felt that it was my horrific attitude and behavior issues that broke the marriage in the first place. Having seen over our three year separation that I had proven that those issues were a thing of the past, I think she felt like she could return and that our marriage would naturally morph into a wonderful relationship, as it was when we got married. I think the problem is that she now carries so much emotional baggage, from our prior marriage, from the two long term affairs, childhood issues, etc. that she is just incapable of allowing herself to be vulnerable enough to put in an effort, to open herself up, to allow herself to have emotion for me again, etc. Honestly I can't tell if she is satisfied with where our marriage sits today or if she too yearns for more but just doesn't know how to change anything. Lately I've been thinking she is carrying a lot of guilt, for her past and for the present, knowing that she isn't meeting my needs. She's incredibly sensitive to feelings of guilt and shame, and can quickly lose control of her emotions if she feels criticized or judged in some way.

That is what makes all of this nearly impossible to discuss with her. I can't just sit down and try to have a conversation about this with her, like asking her what she thinks is wrong, what is bothering her, why she thinks she struggles with expressing any emotional or physical affection for me. I've tried lots of different approaches, but they nearly always end in her becoming enraged, bursting into tears or usually both, and only if we have at least an hour to go from stand-offish -> anger -> defensive rage -> crying/tears -> silent anger/stand-offish -> more tears.


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## cdbaker

Also yes I do make her laugh from time to time, but not as often as I used to. It's difficult when there just aren't a lot of opportunities for smiling, or she doesn't feel comfortable being touched, etc.

One area I struggle with is that I'd love to compliment her more, tell her she is beautiful, leave her notes or cards, gifts even, etc. I think her self esteem is so low that not only does she usually react with indifference or mild to severe annoyance to these things, but often she just gets frustrated when I try anything. She says she has gained about 10 pounds in the last 7 or 8 months since coming home and constantly talks about not being able to fit into her jeans or other clothes. She frequently stresses about not doing as well in her classes as she'd like to (passing, but often it's very close). She hates her hair, body, etc. I think that's pretty normal for most women so I try to do the typical guy thing of reminding her that she's beautiful, smart, sexy, etc., but it doesn't seem appreciated or desired at all. She often acts like I am mocking her even.

So I don't know if she just doesn't believe me when I say those things (which honestly seems very possible) or if any act of kindness on my part triggers her guilt/shame feelings or ... who knows.


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## wilderness

cdbaker said:


> Wilderness, we'll agree to disagree on what I put her through or not. I also understand that she failed me in many ways too, and has apologized to me for it as well. .


It doesn't matter whether we agree or not. No man should put up with what you've put up with and what you are putting up with. It doesn't matter what happened. This is so far outside of the realm of acceptable that it has reached the point of ridiculousness. Do you not see that?




> In any case, I agree something needs to change or accelerate. For roughly the past month, I've been trying the strategy of lowering the relational "thermostat" of the marriage. Just not pursuing her at all, not seeking any form of physical affection, verbal emotional support, etc., and rarely offering any either unless sought. I guess the idea was that if I like it to be 85 degree's and she wants it to be 75 degrees, then my reducing it to 60 degree's might make her uncomfortable and want to seek me out to raise it up from there. So far I don't think that's really happened. She's seemed mostly content with it all, though I do think we're getting along a little better as a result. But there hasn't really been any success in trying to trigger her to pursue me or seek physical affection.


With all due respect, I believe this is on you. If you look back in this thread, many of us encouraged you to stop making things so easy on your wife. We encouraged you, for lack of a better term, to _increase_ the relationship temperature. You said you agreed, but then responded by doing the opposite. This is classic nice guy behavior. In Dr. Glover's book, No More Mr. Nice Guy http://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf he refers often to this dynamic. The dynamic of doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. 




> As far as what she came back for... I think she came back because she felt that it was my horrific attitude and behavior issues that broke the marriage in the first place. Having seen over our three year separation that I had proven that those issues were a thing of the past, I think she felt like she could return and that our marriage would naturally morph into a wonderful relationship, as it was when we got married.


In my opinion you have a severely distorted viewpoint of this. The most likely reason she came back is that she had no better options and was stuck financially. She needed someone to finance her living expenses while she pursued her education- and guess what, that's YOU. Look not at her words, but at her actions. They are screaming that she was never truly interested in reconciling with you.



> I think the problem is that she now carries so much emotional baggage, from our prior marriage, from the two long term affairs, childhood issues, etc. that she is just incapable of allowing herself to be vulnerable enough to put in an effort, to open herself up, to allow herself to have emotion for me again, etc. Honestly I can't tell if she is satisfied with where our marriage sits today or if she too yearns for more but just doesn't know how to change anything. Lately I've been thinking she is carrying a lot of guilt, for her past and for the present, knowing that she isn't meeting my needs. She's incredibly sensitive to feelings of guilt and shame, and can quickly lose control of her emotions if she feels criticized or judged in some way.


If this was truly the case, she would not have been able to have repeated sex with a child molester. I don't think it's so much that she is 'sensitive' to feelings of guilt and shame, it's that she is manipulating you with her feelings! 



> That is what makes all of this nearly impossible to discuss with her. I can't just sit down and try to have a conversation about this with her, like asking her what she thinks is wrong, what is bothering her, why she thinks she struggles with expressing any emotional or physical affection for me. I've tried lots of different approaches, but they nearly always end in her becoming enraged, bursting into tears or usually both, and only if we have at least an hour to go from stand-offish -> anger -> defensive rage -> crying/tears -> silent anger/stand-offish -> more tears


In my opinion this is exactly what needs to be done! Put her on the spot. You've done and are doing what you need to do, she is not. Why not? If you push her enough and make things uncomfortable enough for her, you are either going to get to rejection quickly or you she is going to leave. That's what HAS to happen, because things are never going to change as is.

Please, sir, carefully consider these words. I feel for you, I really do. This is like watching a train wreck from afar. It's painful to watch.


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## karole

"In my opinion you have a severely distorted viewpoint of this. The most likely reason she came back is that she had no better options and was stuck financially. She needed someone to finance her living expenses while she pursued her education- and guess what, that's YOU. Look not at her words, but at her actions. They are screaming that she was never truly interested in reconciling with you."

I agree with Wilderness 100% on this. Your wife came back to you because it appears she had no other options available to her. If she were genuinely committed to the marriage, she would AT LEAST be making an EFFORT to show you some sort of affection. What you have now is not a marriage and the really sad part is that she doesn't seem to be doing anything to improve it. So, how long do you plan to stay on the path your are currently on because things are not improving.

One other thing, is your wife affectionate towards your daughter?


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## cdbaker

wilderness said:


> It doesn't matter whether we agree or not. No man should put up with what you've put up with and what you are putting up with. It doesn't matter what happened. This is so far outside of the realm of acceptable that it has reached the point of ridiculousness. Do you not see that?


Marriages hit sexless points in the course of life all the time, for all kinds of reasons. I struggle to understand why you feel that a sexless period "rough patch" for even a few months is so incredibly, inexplicably unacceptable that divorce is the only solution. That even demanding sex from an unwilling spouse is considered acceptable in your view.



wilderness said:


> With all due respect, I believe this is on you. If you look back in this thread, many of us encouraged you to stop making things so easy on your wife. We encouraged you, for lack of a better term, to _increase_ the relationship temperature. You said you agreed, but then responded by doing the opposite. This is classic nice guy behavior. In Dr. Glover's book, No More Mr. Nice Guy http://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf he refers often to this dynamic. The dynamic of doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.


Yep I remember, I agreed and I tried it too. I remember that, per several of your suggestions, I told her months ago that our "no sex grace period" was over and that I expected that we should be rebuilding our sexual relationship from that point forward. I initiated physical affection left and right, and in most cases she accepted, often begrudgingly. I think she only rejected the purely sexual advances. I was getting no where, and felt like I was coming off as desperate/needy and unattractive. My attempts to increase the temperature just resulted in her pushing back harder, pulling away, decreasing the temperature further, etc. In mid-December I came across another thread that described this new idea that I thought was pretty novel. It felt like a sort of pseudo-180, and figured such an idea would contrast well with my prior efforts, going from full-on pursuit mode to "I don't need anything from you" mode. I'm not saying it was a total failure, and it's only been about 30 days.



wilderness said:


> In my opinion you have a severely distorted viewpoint of this. The most likely reason she came back is that she had no better options and was stuck financially. She needed someone to finance her living expenses while she pursued her education- and guess what, that's YOU. Look not at her words, but at her actions. They are screaming that she was never truly interested in reconciling with you.


I've explained several times. Financially she was doing just fine, supporting herself just fine, doing well in school, working enough hours to pay all her bills and still have fun money, etc. She even got her dad to move from the next town over to be her roommate and split the rent. Moving back in with me resulted in her sort of abandoning her dad (who moved back to the next town over shortly thereafter), having to work more hours to meet my requirement that she help financially support the household, sleeping in a bed with me, losing the 100% freedom to go anywhere/do anything without question, etc. So again, if she has no interest in repairing the marriage and gains nothing by trying, then her new life at home with me is actually WORSE than the life she led before on her own. Your argument doesn't hold water.



wilderness said:


> If this was truly the case, she would not have been able to have repeated sex with a child molester. I don't think it's so much that she is 'sensitive' to feelings of guilt and shame, it's that she is manipulating you with her feelings!


Getting involved with the creepy old guy (not a child molester before they met, and didn't know anything about what he did until he was arrested) happened initially because her self esteem was so completely shot that he came off as a "safe" person who could not possibly make her feel "beneath" him in any way. She figured she'd have nothing to worry about from him because he'd be too busy counting his lucky stars. She could just take time off from serious relationships for a while to rebuild herself, while still have him and his emotional support around when needed.

You know all about sex ranks of course right? From Married Man's Sex Primer? When a 7 and an 8 are in a relationship, what common dynamics are involved? Typically the 7 knows their spouse out ranks them and perhaps spends a lot of time trying to make their spouse satisfied, or improving him/herself, is probably often worried that their spouse won't be satisfied and look elsewhere, etc. The 8 probably knows they outrank their spouse and probably often feels entitled, or wonders if they can find someone better, or is more susceptible to cheating, less concerned with their spouses satisfaction, etc. If that 7 gets overwhelmed by the grind and the pompous spouse, who do you think he/she will likely initially be attracted to? Probably a six or lesser, because they won't be eager to sign up for the stressful lower ranking partner role again. In that scenario, a 6 would likely be happy to have him/her and the 7 might enjoy that change of pace. A 5 would be even more happy to have the 7, and a 4 would be very determined indeed to satisfy a 7. An emotionally beaten down and depressed 7 with low self esteem would probably be very open to those in the low 3-4 range for that reason, because a 3/4 could NEVER make a 7 feel inadequate or unworthy, would probably be very loyal and trustworthy, and the 7 could get away with just about anything without a 3/4 walking away.

It makes perfect sense to me. I'm not saying a 7 would commit long term to a 3/4, or that I am any higher ranked than my wife, but I understand that I definitely made her feel that way at the time.



wilderness said:


> In my opinion this is exactly what needs to be done! Put her on the spot. You've done and are doing what you need to do, she is not. Why not? If you push her enough and make things uncomfortable enough for her, you are either going to get to rejection quickly or you she is going to leave. That's what HAS to happen, because things are never going to change as is.


You might be right, and that will probably be my next course of action. Well, actually I'll probably insist on MC so that something like this can happen in a somewhat safer/more controlled environment, with the help of someone who could help keep things on track.

At the very least, I want to know the answers to these questions:

1. Are you satisfied with the marriage we have as it is right now?
2. Do you feel you have done everything you can for the marriage and have nothing more to offer/change?
3. Knowing what my needs are for a happy marriage, my expectations for my wife, do you believe you are capable of being that wife?

Obviously, the wrong answers to any of these questions would be deal breakers.


----------



## cdbaker

karole said:


> "In my opinion you have a severely distorted viewpoint of this. The most likely reason she came back is that she had no better options and was stuck financially. She needed someone to finance her living expenses while she pursued her education- and guess what, that's YOU. Look not at her words, but at her actions. They are screaming that she was never truly interested in reconciling with you."
> 
> I agree with Wilderness 100% on this. Your wife came back to you because it appears she had no other options available to her. If she were genuinely committed to the marriage, she would AT LEAST be making an EFFORT to show you some sort of affection. What you have now is not a marriage and the really sad part is that she doesn't seem to be doing anything to improve it. So, how long do you plan to stay on the path your are currently on because things are not improving.
> 
> One other thing, is your wife affectionate towards your daughter?


She's very affectionate to my daughter. And my relationship with my wife has improved dramatically in the last two years, especially since she moved back into our home in June. The improvement is consistent, it's just been very slow to improve as it relates to physical intimacy. I'm having a hard time explaining this here. In all of the ways you might picture a good happy marriage, I am experiencing in mine, with the exception of physical intimacy. Again, that too has improved over time, just not nearly at the rate that every other element of the relationship has.


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## wilderness

cdbaker said:


> Marriages hit sexless points in the course of life all the time, for all kinds of reasons. I struggle to understand why you feel that a sexless period "rough patch" for even a few months is so incredibly, inexplicably unacceptable that divorce is the only solution. That even demanding sex from an unwilling spouse is considered acceptable in your view.


I never said anything about divorce. But what you describe as a 'rough patch' makes the Sahara desert look like the garden of eden. It is most certainly NOT normal to reconcile without kissing and sex of any kind. And going months and months without any physical relationship of any kind is not only not normal, it's insanity! Quite honestly, man...from someone looking at the situation from afar, someone that has no skin in the game whatsoever, it's nuts! Like I said, I think your situation is the saddest that I've *ever* read about on TAM (if not anywhere else). I've read hundreds, if not thousands of threads.
I never said anything about divorce. But I most certainly advocate ending this madness by demanding change from your wife.



> Yep I remember, I agreed and I tried it too. I remember that, per several of your suggestions, I told her months ago that our "no sex grace period" was over and that I expected that we should be rebuilding our sexual relationship from that point forward. I initiated physical affection left and right, and in most cases she accepted, often begrudgingly. I think she only rejected the purely sexual advances. I was getting no where, and felt like I was coming off as desperate/needy and unattractive.


Athol Kay would say that it's important to be 'outcome independent'. In other words, try not to show your wife that you are upset with her rejections. However, in your case, your situation has gotten so ridiculously out of control that I wouldn't even bother with I/O. Let her see how upset and frustrated you are, as it is PERFECTLY NORMAL to be sexually frustrated after going months and months without sex. She is the one with the problem, not you! Let her take responsibility for harming you in this callous fashion, in my opinion.



> My attempts to increase the temperature just resulted in her pushing back harder, pulling away, decreasing the temperature further, etc. In mid-December I came across another thread that described this new idea that I thought was pretty novel. It felt like a sort of pseudo-180, and figured such an idea would contrast well with my prior efforts, going from full-on pursuit mode to "I don't need anything from you" mode. I'm not saying it was a total failure, and it's only been about 30 days.


I think this only works in a good faith marriage. In other words, 2 people that actually want to be married, want to meet each other's needs, want to do the right thing, etc etc....
That's not what you have! Your wife simply wants to take advantage of you. 




> I've explained several times. Financially she was doing just fine, supporting herself just fine, doing well in school, working enough hours to pay all her bills and still have fun money, etc. She even got her dad to move from the next town over to be her roommate and split the rent. Moving back in with me resulted in her sort of abandoning her dad (who moved back to the next town over shortly thereafter), having to work more hours to meet my requirement that she help financially support the household, sleeping in a bed with me, losing the 100% freedom to go anywhere/do anything without question, etc. So again, if she has no interest in repairing the marriage and gains nothing by trying, then her new life at home with me is actually WORSE than the life she led before on her own. Your argument doesn't hold water.


She was doing so financially great that she had to have her Dad move in? She was doing so great otherwise that your daughter was living with you? Man you are buried in denial. If she wanted her marriage she would be trying to be your _wife._ She is not doing that, AT ALL.



> Getting involved with the creepy old guy (not a child molester before they met, and didn't know anything about what he did until he was arrested) happened initially because her self esteem was so completely shot that he came off as a "safe" person who could not possibly make her feel "beneath" him in any way. She figured she'd have nothing to worry about from him because he'd be too busy counting his lucky stars. She could just take time off from serious relationships for a while to rebuild herself, while still have him and his emotional support around when needed.


The bottom line is that this notion that she has been so hurt by men that she can't have sex didn't apply to the child molester, but it applies to you. That, my friend, doesn't pass the smell test. 




> You know all about sex ranks of course right? From Married Man's Sex Primer? When a 7 and an 8 are in a relationship, what common dynamics are involved? Typically the 7 knows their spouse out ranks them and perhaps spends a lot of time trying to make their spouse satisfied, or improving him/herself, is probably often worried that their spouse won't be satisfied and look elsewhere, etc. The 8 probably knows they outrank their spouse and probably often feels entitled, or wonders if they can find someone better, or is more susceptible to cheating, less concerned with their spouses satisfaction, etc. If that 7 gets overwhelmed by the grind and the pompous spouse, who do you think he/she will likely initially be attracted to? Probably a six or lesser, because they won't be eager to sign up for the stressful lower ranking partner role again. In that scenario, a 6 would likely be happy to have him/her and the 7 might enjoy that change of pace. A 5 would be even more happy to have the 7, and a 4 would be very determined indeed to satisfy a 7. An emotionally beaten down and depressed 7 with low self esteem would probably be very open to those in the low 3-4 range for that reason, because a 3/4 could NEVER make a 7 feel inadequate or unworthy, would probably be very loyal and trustworthy, and the 7 could get away with just about anything without a 3/4 walking away.
> 
> It makes perfect sense to me. I'm not saying a 7 would commit long term to a 3/4, or that I am any higher ranked than my wife, but I understand that I definitely made her feel that way at the time.


None of this explains why she refuses to engage AT ALL in a physical relationship with her husband, but she did with a child molester.




> You might be right, and that will probably be my next course of action. Well, actually I'll probably insist on MC so that something like this can happen in a somewhat safer/more controlled environment, with the help of someone who could help keep things on track.
> 
> At the very least, I want to know the answers to these questions:
> 
> 1. Are you satisfied with the marriage we have as it is right now?
> 2. Do you feel you have done everything you can for the marriage and have nothing more to offer/change?
> 3. Knowing what my needs are for a happy marriage, my expectations for my wife, do you believe you are capable of being that wife?
> 
> Obviously, the wrong answers to any of these questions would be deal breakers


Why do you need a marriage counselor to ask these questions? So what if she gets defensive? So what if she gets angry? You have absolutely nothing to lose, anyway, as right now you have no marriage.


----------



## karole

cdbaker said:


> She's very affectionate to my daughter. And my relationship with my wife has improved dramatically in the last two years, especially since she moved back into our home in June. The improvement is consistent, it's just been very slow to improve as it relates to physical intimacy. I'm having a hard time explaining this here. In all of the ways you might picture a good happy marriage, I am experiencing in mine, with the exception of physical intimacy. Again, that too has improved over time, just not nearly at the rate that every other element of the relationship has.


Sounds like your are great roommates....


----------



## cdbaker

wilderness said:


> The bottom line is that this notion that she has been so hurt by men that she can't have sex didn't apply to the child molester, but it applies to you. That, my friend, doesn't pass the smell test.
> 
> None of this explains why she refuses to engage AT ALL in a physical relationship with her husband, but she did with a child molester.


The creepy old guy (again, NOT a child molester until way later and they had already long since broken up by the the time of his arrest) has no history with her, no history of hurting her, leaving her emotionally starved, throwing her under the bus, pawning her sex off onto other men, etc. She had no real reason to fear him, he was a blank slate. With me, my slate was a black as could be, so I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that rebuilding that trust will take some time. Imagine a dog who has been beaten mercilessly by his master for years. Then master has a change of heart, how long do you think it will take for the dog to not fear or lash out at him?




wilderness said:


> Why do you need a marriage counselor to ask these questions? So what if she gets defensive? So what if she gets angry? You have absolutely nothing to lose, anyway, as right now you have no marriage.


Like I said, that is sort of where we are coming to. Ideally, I'd like to start that in MC however. I see the odds of improvement being better there.


----------



## cdbaker

karole said:


> Sounds like your are great roommates....


Unfortunately it does often feel that way, but there are a lot of differences. Obviously we're both parenting our daughter, we do hug/kiss/say "I love you" and such, we do loving gestures for each other, we take care of each other, etc. Certainly more than I would ever do with a roommate or a friend, but without the physical intimacy, it's frustrating. She tries to show affection in other ways, acknowledging that she just doesn't feel comfortable being physical yet.


----------



## wilderness

cdbaker said:


> The creepy old guy (again, NOT a child molester until way later and they had already long since broken up by the the time of his arrest) has no history with her, no history of hurting her, leaving her emotionally starved, throwing her under the bus, pawning her sex off onto other men, etc. She had no real reason to fear him, he was a blank slate. .


She had EVERY reason to fear him. He was a child molester. 



> With me, my slate was a black as could be, so I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that rebuilding that trust will take some time. Imagine a dog who has been beaten mercilessly by his master for years. Then master has a change of heart, how long do you think it will take for the dog to not fear or lash out at him?


Go back and look at the beginning of this thread. You are using the exact same excuses for not doing anything now as you were then. This isn't 'some time to work things through and reconnect'. This is months and months and months of your wife blatantly refusing to engage in ANY type of physical relationship with her own husband.





> Like I said, that is sort of where we are coming to. Ideally, I'd like to start that in MC however. I see the odds of improvement being better there


Why start in MC? Why not just come home from work tonight, and lay it on the line? 
"Honey, it's time we had a talk. I've gone months without sex. I'm not doing it anymore. Let's either go in the bedroom and have sex, or you move out."

Or if you don't want to be that direct, how about walking up to her and trying to kiss her. When she refuses:

"I would like to know why you can kiss and have sex with a child molester, but you can't with your own husband."


----------



## cdbaker

Ok, dude, you aren't hearing me. The other guy was not a child molester when she met him. (To be precise, he didn't actually molest anyone, it was just a long series of very inappropriate texts, pictures and phone calls exchanged over a period of months) He had no criminal record, was committing no crimes when they met and first got together, she had no clear cause to fear him, he was a blank slate. I'm not defending the guy, just saying that you aren't a criminal until you've committed a crime, and he had not yet committed any crime. If one of my ex's killed someone today and gets convicted of murder, should my wife hold that against me for having "kissed and had sex with a murderer"??

Beyond that, I think the disagreement we have here is that you believe deeply rooted emotional damage can or should be healable or recoverable in a very short period of time. You (a man I believe) feel sufficiently authoritative on the subject of how long it should take a woman who has been through all of these episodes in her life, all of this trauma, to get over all of it to engage in exactly the activity the trauma was centered around, in a very short period of time. (You haven't been specific, but you indicated that two months was more than enough time so.... weeks?) That is a very bold position to take, imo.


----------



## wilderness

cdbaker said:


> Ok, dude, you aren't hearing me. The other guy was not a child molester when she met him. (To be precise, he didn't actually molest anyone, it was just a long series of very inappropriate texts, pictures and phone calls exchanged over a period of months) He had no criminal record, was committing no crimes when they met and first got together, she had no clear cause to fear him, he was a blank slate. I'm not defending the guy, just saying that you aren't a criminal until you've committed a crime, and he had not yet committed any crime. If one of my ex's killed someone today and gets convicted of murder, should my wife hold that against me for having "kissed and had sex with a murderer"??
> 
> .


Listen, I'm going to call you on the carpet. It's not meant to be disrespectful...ok?
You said on this forum that you were so concerned about this child molester that you wouldn't allow him to be around your daughter. You have also said numerous times that he is/was creepy. Clearly, you were petrified of this guy prior to him being convicted of any crime. Consider this: if you truly believed what you are now espousing, you would have let the child molester be around your daughter!
But you didn't do that, which was the right decision in retrospect. So why defend your wife, who made a horrible decision?



> Beyond that, I think the disagreement we have here is that you believe deeply rooted emotional damage can or should be healable or recoverable in a very short period of time. You (a man I believe) feel sufficiently authoritative on the subject of how long it should take a woman who has been through all of these episodes in her life, all of this trauma, to get over all of it to engage in exactly the activity the trauma was centered around, in a very short period of time. (You haven't been specific, but you indicated that two months was more than enough time so.... weeks?) That is a very bold position to take, imo


Your wife moved home over 7 months ago. When she did, you took the exact same position that I did...that going without any physical relationship indefinitely was not acceptable. SEVEN MONTHS AGO. In that seven months, absolutely nothing has changed whatsoever. Yet you continue to defend your wife. Also of important note is that this 'trauma' didn't stop your wife from having 3 affairs. So clearly, this 'trauma' has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with her shirking you and your marriage for over 7 months.

You are being played.


----------



## LongWalk

> "Honey, it's time we had a talk. I've gone months without sex. I'm not doing it anymore. Let's either go in the bedroom and have sex, or you move out."
> 
> Or if you don't want to be that direct, how about walking up to her and trying to kiss her. When she refuses:
> 
> *"I would like to know why you can kiss and have sex with a child molester, but you can't with your own husband."*


Wilderness, come on, he should definitely not compare himself the child molester. To do so would lower CD's sex ranking. It would be a massive act of disrespect to the both of them.

CD,

Wilderness is right that you need to need to up the ante. Buy her some sexy underwear. Make some really nice dinners. Exhibit a sense of humor. Get her to laugh and smile and you're half way there.


----------



## cdbaker

I agree I need to up the ante here, that's the plan. Incidentally, I decided to slide over to her in bed last night while we watched a movie and she allowed it. It was a pleasant evening. That's a first, so I'll continue to push the envelope.


Wilderness: Yeah I thought he was creepy, a bad person, etc. The dude was also ****ing my wife, initially behind my back. He could have been Jesus Christ and I would have found things to hate about him and prevent him from having any contact with my child. Who could blame me?! I didn't want him to have anything to do with my family. Her family didn't really like him either, but that was also mostly because they didn't approve of the affair, and naturally had concerns about any man who is willing to sleep with and pursue a married woman.

You can say, "She won't have sex with you but she was willing to have sex with a guy nearly twice her age and is willing to sleep with a married woman" but implying that she was knowingly comfortable with sleeping with a pedophile is not at all accurate.


----------



## wilderness

cdbaker said:


> I agree I need to up the ante here, that's the plan. Incidentally, I decided to slide over to her in bed last night while we watched a movie and she allowed it. It was a pleasant evening. That's a first, so I'll continue to push the envelope.
> 
> 
> Wilderness: Yeah I thought he was creepy, a bad person, etc. The dude was also ****ing my wife, initially behind my back. He could have been Jesus Christ and I would have found things to hate about him and prevent him from having any contact with my child. Who could blame me?! I didn't want him to have anything to do with my family. Her family didn't really like him either, but that was also mostly because they didn't approve of the affair, and naturally had concerns about any man who is willing to sleep with and pursue a married woman.
> 
> You can say, "She won't have sex with you but she was willing to have sex with a guy nearly twice her age and is willing to sleep with a married woman" but implying that she was knowingly comfortable with sleeping with a pedophile is not at all accurate.


I never said knowingly. But factually, she was sleeping with a pedophile. The point being, any excuse she makes about not being able to handle intimacy are completely specious as she had no problem having sex with a child molester.

As to upping the ante, I'm with the guys over at NMMNG and MMSLP...push to a hard no. Put the onus on her to say no, make her as uncomfortable as possible. I'd also be starting fights if I were you. Try pushing for an explanation as to when things are going to change, what she is doing to change them, how she is going to about these things, etc etc....

Anything is better than what you have now.


----------



## Sandfly

wilderness said:


> I never said knowingly. But factually, she was sleeping with a pedophile. The point being, *any excuse she makes about not being able to handle intimacy are completely specious as she had no problem having sex* with a child molester.


I'm sure you see the truth in this CDbaker.

You know that feeling you get, when you feel like you could explode?

This is your 'gut' fighting with the justifications (lies) that a person is feeding you.

The tension arises, as with all bodily tensions because your body is telling you something and you're not listening. So it creates a state called 'stress' to force you to _do something_ about a situation (without telling you exactly _how_ to do what you gotta do, sadly)


----------



## cdbaker

Wilderness: Again, do you understand how this statement, "The point being, any excuse she makes about not being able to handle intimacy are completely specious as she had no problem having sex with a child molester." sounds? At the very least the "child molester" part. First, it implies that she knew he was a wannabe child molester (again, he was not accused of actually successfully touching anyone) before sleeping with him, and was comfortable with that. Second, it implies that she views me as less worthy of her sexuality than a child molester. I don't think there is any reason to add that "child molester" bit to the end of that sentence. Your point could be made that as recently as two years ago she was in some form of sexual relationship with someone else, so why not now with me? (A question I have already answered, that what makes it different is that she has since then been betrayed yet again by the convicted pedophile, and that I am a former "abuser" of her. HUGE differences)


Guys, I know we all see it here all the time, but I really think something different is going on here. This isn't just a case of her having a low libido and not respecting or caring enough for me to overcome that for my sake. I see that sort of situation all the time too. This is a scenario where, anytime I introduce the topic in any way, you can see every part of her basically close off and go into a hurt/defensive position. She looks/acts afraid, like she is being asked to do something that she is deeply hurt by or worried about, guilt/shame ridden too. I can very clearly tell that her "guilt/shame meter" is nearly always full because she can't process that out, and this becomes depression and an intense fear of facing it.

If she were responding callously, with a flippant attitude, hard no's with little or no explanation, or ignoring me altogether, or some other variation, I might agree with you. Or if I felt in ANY WAY that there was even a remote chance that she was interested in or involved with anyone else. I just don't feel like that is the case here. Heck, if she and I ever do split up/divorce, without her having found any way to address her depression, I have a hard time imagining her getting involved with anyone new either.

The marriage group that she signed us up for starts in a few weeks so I'm hopeful something positive will come from that. Perhaps that might even convince her that she needn't fear marriage counseling.


----------



## cdbaker

I think one thing that would be more helpful than ANYTHING else I could say/do, would be if she could get into some kind of counseling. I think independent would be best, but marriage counseling would be helpful too. I'm pretty confident that the reason she isn't or hasn't been willing to do either is that she is afraid of being forced to face her past hurts, her guilt/shame, her depression, etc. I think sitting in front of someone who will pick apart her past and point out areas where she needs to make uncomfortable efforts/improvements will just come across as judgements to her, will trigger her feelings of shame, etc. She can't stand the feeling of someone pointing out a fault or area where she needs to change, as it triggers either intensive defensiveness or immediate tears.

If any of you have ever found yourself in a really bad financial situation and the debt collectors start calling, you might be able to relate. Bills are past due, loans are missing payments, soon they'll go to collection agencies and incur enormous penalties, your credit is going to be ruined, they are calling multiple times a day, you stop answering any unknown or 1-888 numbers, the stress is awful. You know what you SHOULD be doing. You should be cutting back your expenses, you should be taking their calls and trying to work out payment agreements, or maybe talk to a lawyer about bankruptcy, or seek credit counseling or sell off some assets or move to a cheaper home, etc. Maybe you've lost your job as well. For a lot of people though, it's all just so depressing that you just stop taking the calls, don't make any efforts to resolve the issues, and just let everything fall apart. You struggle to face the mess you are in. You grow defensive, angry, frustrated, embarrassed, etc. It almost becomes easier to just shut down and ignore everything, even if you know in the back of your mind that doing so is a mistake and will make things worse in the long run.

I know I have absolutely been in that situation myself. It's awful, and I've gone into that mode of ignoring the problem, even when I know that just biting the bullet and facing the problem head on would make things much better in the long run (though not immediately) and it's just too much to deal with. I feel like that is where she is at right now. I think she feels intense guilt/shame over things she's done in the past, and knowing that she is not being a good wife to me. She knows she is in a passionless marriage. She knows that the stress of it all causes her to be depressed, quick to anger and unhappy around her child. When I remind her that she's been forgiven for her past mistakes, she doesn't believe me because she can't believe that I could ever really give her a "blank slate". When I say she is beautiful, that I love her, that she is sexy, etc. she doesn't believe me because she can't believe any such good things about herself. If anything, it more likely makes her suspicious that I am trying to manipulate her in some way. The notion of seeing a therapist who will try to make her face these demons, show her how she is hurting herself and others whom she cares about, make her take uncomfortable steps out of her comfort zone, and make her feel even more guilty for it all, just naturally makes her have zero interest in seeing anyone for help. And anyone or anything that tries to push her in a direction that would be uncomfortable in this area is aggressively repulsed. So again, even knowing that it might be the right thing to do, that it should be helpful in the long run, it's just such an overwhelmingly unpleasant thought that it becomes easier to just ignore it all and coast.

In that type of situation, I think if I were to just push her as hard as I can, she'll just react the same way I would have in the past to a bill collector calling me with threats of financial ruin. (who am I kidding, I still get those calls now) It'll just be easier to let the marriage fall apart, even though (I'm convinced) she doesn't actually want that to happen at all. It's that lie we might sometimes tell ourselves of, that what is asked of us is just too difficult to bear, so we're powerless. For her I'd imagine she might feel like, "I know it's bad, but there isn't anything I can really do about it. I can't make my depression go away. If he can't wait any longer, then he'll just have to do whatever he feels is right for him, because I can't be who he wants me to be right now." She just doesn't have the strength to do what it takes to save it on her own. So my pushing her hard right now, I think, would just make her give up. Certainly you could argue that I might be better off letting her give up and go find someone else for happiness if she isn't willing to step up right this minute. In my mind however, I'd rather put my effort into helping her heal and recover from her demons, whatever that may take.

Again, if she ever told me, or I ever thought, that she just doesn't love me, just doesn't care about our marriage, that she wants a divorce, or even doesn't love me enough to be even a decent spouse to me, then I would certainly give up and move on. I reached that very point about 18 months ago before she returned to convince me otherwise. My wife wants us to have a great marriage, she wants things to be much better than they are today, she's just too emotionally weak and afraid to allow herself to be vulnerable enough for that healing to begin. That's my opinion, and the opinion of two of two people who are closest to us. (One being my best friend, the other being our former marriage counselor who is also a friend now)


----------



## Sandfly

The bottom line is, she has no intimacy problems. Someone with intimacy problems wouldn't be seeking sex elsewhere. She's just messing with your mind, and this particular excuse worked on you. She'd have used another if it hadn't.


----------



## LongWalk

CD, you are a thoughtful guy. But set all the analysis aside. You need to tell your wife to come and sit on the sofa with you. You need to put your arm around her. If you cannot caress her cheek or squeeze her hip, then you are out in the cold. I am not talkng about wild monkey sex, just simple affection.

If you wait for her to initiate when will it happen? Maybe never.

You need to touch her. If she finds you repulsive you need to say, "Sorry you feel that way."

Read Jerry123. In the end after ages of bad vibes from his wife he spelt it out, divorce. She changed after that. No guarantee that your situation will end well but dragging it out too long is not good.

Read Road Scholar also.


----------



## wilderness

cdbaker said:


> Wilderness: Again, do you understand how this statement, "The point being, any excuse she makes about not being able to handle intimacy are completely specious as she had no problem having sex with a child molester." sounds? At the very least the "child molester" part. First, it implies that she knew he was a wannabe child molester (again, he was not accused of actually successfully touching anyone) before sleeping with him, and was comfortable with that. Second, it implies that she views me as less worthy of her sexuality than a child molester. I don't think there is any reason to add that "child molester" bit to the end of that sentence. Your point could be made that as recently as two years ago she was in some form of sexual relationship with someone else, so why not now with me? (A question I have already answered, that what makes it different is that she has since then been betrayed yet again by the convicted pedophile, and that I am a former "abuser" of her. HUGE differences)
> .


In my opinion, the fact that he is a child molester is very relevant. You said yourself that he is a creepy dude. If she can have sex with a creepy child molester AFTER being betrayed by all of these men her whole life, she can certainly have sex with you. Why do you not see this?



> Guys, I know we all see it here all the time, but I really think something different is going on here. This isn't just a case of her having a low libido and not respecting or caring enough for me to overcome that for my sake. I see that sort of situation all the time too. This is a scenario where, anytime I introduce the topic in any way, you can see every part of her basically close off and go into a hurt/defensive position. She looks/acts afraid, like she is being asked to do something that she is deeply hurt by or worried about, guilt/shame ridden too. I can very clearly tell that her "guilt/shame meter" is nearly always full because she can't process that out, and this becomes depression and an intense fear of facing it.


No, nothing different is going on here. Here reactions are manipulation attempts, nothing more. Having sex with one's husband is not nearly the dangerous arduous journey that you portray it to be. It's actually a really simple and really easy thing to do.




> If she were responding callously, with a flippant attitude, hard no's with little or no explanation, or ignoring me altogether, or some other variation, I might agree with you.


She is responding callously. That's the point. She doesn't care that this is hurting you and it's killing your marriage. She is doing _nothing_ to address this issue. An issue that is an absolutely critical component of any marriage.



> Or if I felt in ANY WAY that there was even a remote chance that she was interested in or involved with anyone else. I just don't feel like that is the case here. Heck, if she and I ever do split up/divorce, without her having found any way to address her depression, I have a hard time imagining her getting involved with anyone new either.


She had 3 affairs and 1 with a child molester. Don't delude yourself, if you break up she'll be getting involved with someone new.



> The marriage group that she signed us up for starts in a few weeks so I'm hopeful something positive will come from that. Perhaps that might even convince her that she needn't fear marriage counseling


So you've resigned yourself to no sex for another few weeks? Sad.


----------



## wilderness

cdbaker said:


> I think one thing that would be more helpful than ANYTHING else I could say/do, would be if she could get into some kind of counseling. I think independent would be best, but marriage counseling would be helpful too. I'm pretty confident that the reason she isn't or hasn't been willing to do either is that she is afraid of being forced to face her past hurts, her guilt/shame, her depression, etc. I think sitting in front of someone who will pick apart her past and point out areas where she needs to make uncomfortable efforts/improvements will just come across as judgements to her, will trigger her feelings of shame, etc. She can't stand the feeling of someone pointing out a fault or area where she needs to change, as it triggers either intensive defensiveness or immediate tears.
> )


I highly doubt that marriage counseling will help. This has nothing at all to do with your wife's past. This is very _simple_. Your wife is refusing to engage a physical relationship with you on any level. The solution doesn't require marriage counseling or talking at all, it requires your wife to act. 


I


> f any of you have ever found yourself in a really bad financial situation and the debt collectors start calling, you might be able to relate. Bills are past due, loans are missing payments, soon they'll go to collection agencies and incur enormous penalties, your credit is going to be ruined, they are calling multiple times a day, you stop answering any unknown or 1-888 numbers, the stress is awful. You know what you SHOULD be doing. You should be cutting back your expenses, you should be taking their calls and trying to work out payment agreements, or maybe talk to a lawyer about bankruptcy, or seek credit counseling or sell off some assets or move to a cheaper home, etc. Maybe you've lost your job as well. For a lot of people though, it's all just so depressing that you just stop taking the calls, don't make any efforts to resolve the issues, and just let everything fall apart. You struggle to face the mess you are in. You grow defensive, angry, frustrated, embarrassed, etc. It almost becomes easier to just shut down and ignore everything, even if you know in the back of your mind that doing so is a mistake and will make things worse in the long run.
> 
> I know I have absolutely been in that situation myself. It's awful, and I've gone into that mode of ignoring the problem, even when I know that just biting the bullet and facing the problem head on would make things much better in the long run (though not immediately) and it's just too much to deal with. I feel like that is where she is at right now. I think she feels intense guilt/shame over things she's done in the past, and knowing that she is not being a good wife to me. She knows she is in a passionless marriage. She knows that the stress of it all causes her to be depressed, quick to anger and unhappy around her child. When I remind her that she's been forgiven for her past mistakes, she doesn't believe me because she can't believe that I could ever really give her a "blank slate". When I say she is beautiful, that I love her, that she is sexy, etc. she doesn't believe me because she can't believe any such good things about herself. If anything, it more likely makes her suspicious that I am trying to manipulate her in some way. The notion of seeing a therapist who will try to make her face these demons, show her how she is hurting herself and others whom she cares about, make her take uncomfortable steps out of her comfort zone, and make her feel even more guilty for it all, just naturally makes her have zero interest in seeing anyone for help. And anyone or anything that tries to push her in a direction that would be uncomfortable in this area is aggressively repulsed. So again, even knowing that it might be the right thing to do, that it should be helpful in the long run, it's just such an overwhelmingly unpleasant thought that it becomes easier to just ignore it all and coast.
> 
> In that type of situation, I think if I were to just push her as hard as I can, she'll just react the same way I would have in the past to a bill collector calling me with threats of financial ruin. (who am I kidding, I still get those calls now) It'll just be easier to let the marriage fall apart, even though (I'm convinced) she doesn't actually want that to happen at all. It's that lie we might sometimes tell ourselves of, that what is asked of us is just too difficult to bear, so we're powerless. For her I'd imagine she might feel like, "I know it's bad, but there isn't anything I can really do about it. I can't make my depression go away. If he can't wait any longer, then he'll just have to do whatever he feels is right for him, because I can't be who he wants me to be right now." She just doesn't have the strength to do what it takes to save it on her own. So my pushing her hard right now, I think, would just make her give up. Certainly you could argue that I might be better off letting her give up and go find someone else for happiness if she isn't willing to step up right this minute. In my mind however, I'd rather put my effort into helping her heal and recover from her demons, whatever that may take.


Your comparison of someone in debt to your wife is a horrible analogy. A better comparison would be someone in debt that has the money to pay, but refuses to. Your wife could fix this, it's literally as easy as her taking off her clothes and having sex with you, but she refuses. The fact that your wife would actually think there is nothing she can do to change the situation is even more concerning, as that demonstrates mental illness. The _reality_ is that all your wife has to do to fix the situation is to start having a physical relationship with you.




> Again, if she ever told me, or I ever thought, that she just doesn't love me, just doesn't care about our marriage, that she wants a divorce, or even doesn't love me enough to be even a decent spouse to me, then I would certainly give up and move on


. 

That's exactly what she is telling you, through her actions. Please read this essay concerning female communication and how men interpret it. The Medium is the Message |
A relevant paragraph in the essay:



> More often than not women tell the complete truth with their actions, they just communicate it in a fashion that men can’t or wont understand. As a behaviorist, I’m a firm believer in the psychological principal that *the only way to determine genuine motivation and/or intent is to observe the behavior of an individual. All one need do is compare behavior and the results of it to correlate intent. *A woman will communicate vast wealths of information and truths to a man if he’s only willing to accept her behavior, not exclusively her words, as the benchmark. He must also understand that the truth she betrays in her behavior is often not what he wants to accept.





> I reached that very point about 18 months ago before she returned to convince me otherwise. My wife wants us to have a great marriage, she wants things to be much better than they are today,


No, sir. Your wife does not want these things. Her actions are screaming that she does not want them at all.


----------



## caladan

She's skint, you're permitting her.

Cut your losses, open an ******* account. It's over.

Or you can wait until she leaves.


----------



## cdbaker

Wilderness, I get a lot of what you are saying. I imagine you are right in a lot of it. A few things I just can't completely agree with however:

You've got to understand that I'm not just "some guy." In the event of divorce, she might be able to go meet someone else and build a healthy sexual relationship with him in due time, but you can't argue that her choosing to be sexual with him is no different than the same possibility with me, because in a very real sense, I am a former abuser of her. We have a long negative history (you can't deny that much) so to compare me with anyone else who has a blank slate, including the wannabe child molester before he became a wannabe child molester, isn't representative of reality.

Your continued assertion that this should be as simple as going home and saying, "Take off your clothes and get in bed, or move out." is just insanity. Further, even if she did agree to do so (out of fear), I can't imagine how that could lead towards a healthy/happy marriage. What woman wants to be married to a man who essentially rapes them at will? Might it get me laid once or twice? Maybe, but my goal isn't to get laid today or tomorrow, it's to rebuild a happy marriage.

The whole motivation/intent via actions stuff is interesting though. I'm definitely willing to consider that. 

In any case, I still need to find a way to get through to her that is something between, "Take off your clothes now or move out" and "You can have all the time in the world, don't mind me."


----------



## firebelly1

cdbaker said:


> Wilderness, I get a lot of what you are saying. I imagine you are right in a lot of it. A few things I just can't completely agree with however:
> 
> You've got to understand that I'm not just "some guy." In the event of divorce, she might be able to go meet someone else and build a healthy sexual relationship with him in due time, but you can't argue that her choosing to be sexual with him is no different than the same possibility with me, because in a very real sense, I am a former abuser of her. We have a long negative history (you can't deny that much) so to compare me with anyone else who has a blank slate, including the wannabe child molester before he became a wannabe child molester, isn't representative of reality.
> 
> Your continued assertion that this should be as simple as going home and saying, "Take off your clothes and get in bed, or move out." is just insanity. Further, even if she did agree to do so (out of fear), I can't imagine how that could lead towards a healthy/happy marriage. What woman wants to be married to a man who essentially rapes them at will? Might it get me laid once or twice? Maybe, but my goal isn't to get laid today or tomorrow, it's to rebuild a happy marriage.
> 
> The whole motivation/intent via actions stuff is interesting though. I'm definitely willing to consider that.
> 
> In any case, I still need to find a way to get through to her that is something between, "Take off your clothes now or move out" and "You can have all the time in the world, don't mind me."


CD, I love that you're sensitive to her needs. But I think this particular issue is something that is a question for yourself. What do you need to want to continue with this marriage? You need to articulate that to yourself and then her and let the chips fall where they may. And when you talk to her, it is simply a statement about your needs and she can decide what she's going to do about it, and then you can decide what to do about what she decides. 

I recognize some of what you're doing is stuff I did with my stbxh - trying to be sensitive and patient as a means of controlling the other person's reaction. It's not being true to yourself when you do that.


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## bandit.45

Ughhhhhh.....

This is a painful thread to read. So much denial.


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## mupostori

"She has directly told me that she feels that January 2014 would be a good timeframe to start trying to get pregnant"

Dude what happened


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## cdbaker

Good thoughts Firebelly, I will consider that.

Mupostori: Ha, that actually came up the other day. She said her birth control (depo injection) "expires" in about two weeks and said she doesn't plan to go get it again.

My feeling now is that I don't want to get laid one time just to knock her up and then continue in a sexless marriage. I DO think that if she could bring herself to be sexual just a little bit that it could do a lot to rebuild a bond between us, but I don't think I can risk that.


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## bandit.45

Great...

What better way to increase the Stockholm Syndrome than to knock up your captor?


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## Sandfly

I'm surprised she let it slip that she intends to get pregnant, because you have to remember that 'hints' translated into man-speak are in fact definite decisions. 

You need to watch yourself now. I realise you care about her, but if she falls pregnant you will have 18 long years to think about what life could have been like, if you weren't nursing someone you can't fix and who goes out looking for trouble.


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## cdbaker

Personally I don't see the pregnancy thing happening, regardless of what she has said. Back when she said that January 14' might be a target timeframe, it was because I initiated the conversation and asked for a timeframe. She hasn't brought it up since. I asked her about her birth control last week and that is when she mentioned that it expires in a couple of weeks and that she doesn't yet have an appointment for re-upping it.


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## LongWalk

That is really unfair of her. However, some women will have sex during pregnancy. I suspect your wife is not one of them.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## JDL8787

Man, I've been coming back up here and reading all the updates. I've been hoping time after time to see either: "She finally decided that she wanted to be with me in every way possible." OR 
"I got tired of being her "safety net" and told her to gtfo". Either way would honestly be an improvement at this point man... I understand your want to see all the good you can and have as much hope as possible.

When my wife moved back in, it was only after we began being a couple, full force, no BS. There are intimacy issues here and there, BUT, I call her out, and demand REAL answers when they come up. Neither her nor I deserve to live a false reality only for one or the others comfort, and that rings true for you and your spouse as well. She needs be honest honest with you and more importantly honest with herself. Does she love you like she should to be in a marriage, is she physically attracted to you? It's either there or it's not after a certain point, and honestly, at this stage in the game, I believe the longer you get used to her being home, the harder it's going to hit when she splits OR you get sick of being treated like a close friend.

Then again, the wait could be that much sweeter if you guys lovingly embrace and go nuts on each other...

I truly, truly, truly hope for the best for you. I mean that. Please keep us informed.


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## thummper

Can you really put up with her putting you in the position of cuckold-in-residence? Speaking strictly for myself, I think you'd be a fool to take her back under these cicumstances. Of course, it's your life, do what you want.


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## LongWalk

Pregnancy without first getting back a healthy sex live? Sounds like a rash move that ensures you are trapped in a future sexless marriage.


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## Hicks

I can tell you this. if you don't give her a reason to be sexual with you, she will not be sexual with you.

And, the fact that you want to have sex with her is not that reason.

I would not sit around expecting things to change based on what you write.

The child molester guy... Before she knew he was a molester or whatever.... Why was she sexual with him? Was it looks, money, the Man Up plan? She wanted to keep him in her life. Why did she want to keep him in her life? He did something that made her want him there. 

You spend alot of time in your own head, but where you need to spend the time in your head and in your days is figuring out how to be be the guy she needs in her life. That she would do whatever it takes to keep. And guess what, the past really has no bearing on this.

And once you become the prize she has to attain, you have to be the guy who makes it known that sex is required for her to stay in your life. And the reason you have to do that is the past will block her in this regard.... And her internal struggle will be past vs future.


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## Kevinb

WOW...I thought my situation was bad!!! Mate, youve spent 19 pages defending your wifes lack of attraction to you and blaming yourself all the while.. THREE YEARS without touching your wife...say it again THREE YEARS without touching your wife....Is anything getting through to you???
You are obviously preparing yourself for a life of celibacy.
My thoughts are with you Mate and this has been the most painful and sad thread I have read


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## DoF

OP, I think you are making a HUGE mistake

History is a good indicator of the future. If you wife was weak enough to be manipulated by a scum like that, just think how much easier it will be for a man that has half a brain.

Personally, after that, I would never EVER allow this woman back in my life.

Just me though....


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## cdbaker

I hesitate to post an update to this thread, because I feel like this thread carries with it a lot of baggage and misconceptions, but I figure I'll give it a shot and if it doesn't go the way I hope, I'll probably just start a new one because I'm not sure how relevant any of the prior posts are nowadays.


Quick(ish) Update: In some ways our relationship is better. In some ways it's a LOT better. In other ways, it is pretty much unchanged.

*A LOT Better - *
1. My wife is contributing more. She graduated from school last December and is now a full time nurse, contributing to the household financially and openly. (I know many folks in the past had sworn that she was using me until she graduated and then would leave)
2. She is helping out around the home much more. She does 90% of the laundry and manages our living room, I take care of the kitchen/dining room and pets (including five chickens we got for our backyard in February). Other tasks are more or less split evenly. In the first six months after she moved back home, I was probably doing 80+% of the chores overall, so this is a big improvement.
3. She is very committed to the marriage as far as openly expressing it publicly, there has been absolutely ZERO evidence of anything nefarious with anyone else, no contact with prior AP's, etc. In fact, she's been openly talking to her family and all her friends about wanting to do a vow-renewal ceremony on our anniversary next year.

*Other "neither great or bad, just good" signs - *
1. When her last AP got out of jail last month, he immediately tried contacting her just as we suspected we would. She did not respond to any of them, has not tried to contact him (I have kept an eye on a few things to verify this...), and has even shared this with her family and friends, so they too could hold her accountable if need be. But I genuinely believe she has absolutely ZERO interest in ever speaking to him again.
2. It's still rare, but she has made an increasing effort to express loving gestures. She'll now initiate hugs and be the first to say "I love you" sometimes for example. That seems like a small thing, but it NEVER happened in 2013.
3. We do most everything together. Lots of family activities, walks, TV together at night before bed, etc. Pretty rare that she's just off doing her own thing completely unaware of what me or our daughter are doing.

*Unchanged concerns - *
1. Sex. The best news I can report here is that she doesn't go out of her way to cover herself when changing clothes anymore. I'm pretty sure I saw some nipples last week for instance. That's it. No sex, no sexual activity of any kind, simply no interest.


*Soooo....* I suppose I shouldn't be complaining much. In most ways, I have a great relationship with my wife now, especially given how incredibly close it came to ending in the last few years. I have a lot to be thankful for, and I do very genuinely still love her and find her to be an incredibly beautiful and good person. Sex shouldn't be the most important part of a relationship, but when there is absolutely no intimacy happening, it quickly feels like the biggest and most monstrous problem in my world.

I think she's run out of legit excuses now and she knows it. I haven't heard her say "Don't rush me" or "This is just going to take time" in a while, because I think she knows that more than enough reasonable time has passed. She's even spoken with family/friends quite a bit about wanting to have another child, soon even, but keeps coming up with other excuses for that now. DUMB excuses too. Like this:

Want another baby? Great, I do too! Let's get started.
"I'm 10lbs. overweight, I want to lose the weight first."
Ooookkk... then lets go on a diet and start running.
"I can't, I work on my feet full time and am too tired. Besides, I think it's my hypo-thyroidism that's causing it."
Ooookkk... but you started taking the medication for that already.
"Yeah but it takes 60 days for it to start working."
Ooookkkk... so even if you did get pregnant, it would be in full affect before you're barely a month in.
"Yeah, but the hypo-thyroidism makes it really difficult to get pregnant, so I probably can't get pregnant anyway."
Ooookkkk... so there is no harm in our having sex either way.
"No, because it's still possible that I could get pregnant."
Ooookkkk... so what if you do?
"I don't want to be pregnant while I'm trying to get the thyroid issue under control. I want to get that fixed without pregnancy effects possibly confusing the situation."
Ooookkkk.... so we can just use a condom. Problem solved.
"YOU JUST DON'T GET IT, YOU'RE NOT LISTENING AT ALL."

The crazy thing is, I desperately want another child too. Probably two more. I'm 31 years old, she's 30 now, and I feel like we're running out of time.


Most recently, something interesting/new did happen that might be worth discussing. At some point a week or so ago, she indicated that she is just never "in the mood" for sex. So a few nights ago I decided to give it a solid effort. She likes for me to play with her hair with my hands, it relaxes her. So one night I was doing so, and just slowly started moving my hands further and further over her body. She was allowing it. She was sleepy as it was late at night, but she was awake and allowing it. Occasionally she would even shift her body around to get more comfortable, but not in a way that was preventing what I was doing. Eventually I slid up against her body and really started roaming her body with my hands and kissing her around her neck. She started writhing a bit but was clearly in discomfort. She was making some gaspy sounds but ultimately it included the words "please... stop..." I pressed on for a little bit, because stop doesn't always mean stop, (right guys?) and she didn't say no, but maybe ten seconds later she more firmly said stop and I did so immediately. 

She looked like she was nearly in tears. She rolled over and covered herself in the blanket head to toe and curled up in the fetal position. She was clearly really upset, but not mad at me, not pissed off, just appeared to be upset/frustrated in the situation and/or herself. Then she got up and went to the bathroom. She was gone from the room for a while and I was exhausted, and fell asleep. At 6am I noticed that she wasn't in bed, and found her passed out on the couch without a blanket or pillow. 

My interpretation of the situation: This was easily the closest we've gotten to sexual activity since the reconciliation. Yes she allowed me to continue my obviously sensual actions, but in hindsight I think she was forcing herself to try it. So that night I think she was trying to force herself to allow it, maybe because she felt like she should do it for me, maybe to see if she could get "over it", but who knows. Eventually the discomfort of the situation just overwhelmed her though and she couldn't help but stop it. Doing so, she knew she left me more disappointed and frustrated than ever, felt more guilt/shame than ever, and ultimately just couldn't bear to even remain in the bed a moment later, retreating to the couch. A sort of self-punishment perhaps? As if to say that she didn't deserve to be in bed with me for what she'd done. I got up and invited her back to bed where she got a few more hours of sleep.

The next day, she didn't want to talk about it which isn't a surprise at all. All she said was that she was tired, frustrated, and said that I should have stopped ten second earlier when she first gasped stop. (remember, we weren't having sex, neither of us were naked, I wasn't even touching her skin, just hands across her back/butt and kissing her neck) In the days following, she made a noticeable effort to express more hugs, kisses and "I love you's", which is her general response to feeling like she has done or said something wrong and feels a need to make it up to me.


Apparently she has agreed to discuss sex issues with me tonight if she has enough energy after she gets off work (which means she probably won't) but I'm going to try to keep pressing the issue to discuss this. I wish she would talk to someone, ANYONE about this, but she doesn't because (I think) she knows that even her close friends would tell her that this problems has to be addressed quickly, and she just doesn't want to face it. She hasn't said NO outright to seeing a new MC, but has certainly indicated that she doesn't really want to, or feel like it'll help, or even acknowledged that we need help. (Acknowledging a problem would add to her guilt/shame feelings) If she and I ultimately can't figure out how to make progress on our own, I intend to insist on us attending MC.


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## WorkingOnMe

You're not yet in reconciliation so you shouldn't refer to it as such. And to suggest children at this point is really irresponsible. You have really deep seeded issues.


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## cdbaker

Not yet in reconciliation? We were separated for three years and she moved back in a year ago. I just explained that most of our relationship is back on track, but we still have a few very important issues. I'd sure say that we're in "reconciliation" mode. Besides, I've received a few requests to update this thread vs. start a new one in another section. I'm not sure which section I'd go to anyway.


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## WorkingOnMe

No without sex you're currently in false reconciliation.


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## Iver

I always found decision trees to be helpful.

Give it what you consider to be an appropriate time frame on your own and if there isn't progress THEN see a Therapist with training in sexual dysfunctions.

IF she refuses to do that THEN do A or B...(which probably means accept the current status quo or proceed to divorce)

Hope it works out for you.

Good luck.


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## karole

You have a friendship, not a marriage.


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## caladan

I can't.

I'm not even married anymore and I'm getting a lot more sex than you are.

I just can't.


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## Kevinb

Good luck Mate I think she need to see a someone


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## the guy

cdbaker said:


> Eventually I slid up against her body and really started roaming her body with my hands and kissing her around her neck.


You know there is a women out there that would give her left breast to get this kind of attention.....yet your old lady can't get it up.

Sex is the glue! You guys have lost your adhesiveness.


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## LongWalk

CD,

No need to start a new thread.

Your wife has issues. Some may have been of your making. Right now you need to remove the friend zone. What does she want from you?

How can you go on indefinitely in this sexless marriage?


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## zillard

cdbaker said:


> Want another baby? Great, I do too! Let's get started.
> "I'm 10lbs. overweight, I want to lose the weight first."
> Ooookkk... then lets go on a diet and start running.
> "I can't, I work on my feet full time and am too tired. Besides, I think it's my hypo-thyroidism that's causing it."
> Ooookkk... but you started taking the medication for that already.
> "Yeah but it takes 60 days for it to start working."
> Ooookkkk... so even if you did get pregnant, it would be in full affect before you're barely a month in.
> "Yeah, but the hypo-thyroidism makes it really difficult to get pregnant, so I probably can't get pregnant anyway."
> Ooookkkk... so there is no harm in our having sex either way.
> "No, because it's still possible that I could get pregnant."
> Ooookkkk... so what if you do?
> "I don't want to be pregnant while I'm trying to get the thyroid issue under control. I want to get that fixed without pregnancy effects possibly confusing the situation."
> Ooookkkk.... so we can just use a condom. Problem solved.
> "YOU JUST DON'T GET IT, YOU'RE NOT LISTENING AT ALL."


Dude. Stop having these conversations. They are not only pointless but counterproductive and make you more unattractive.


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## Loveishard

Now I don't normally post, I'm much more of a lurker trying to find answers for my own situation but I read all 12 pages of this and oh my! I did have to respond, so much is similar where I can not (as yet) forgive my partner/ex (still working that one out) for his cruelty in his treatment of me in regards to things about our sex life amount other things.

Firstly, I see totally why your wife feels that way about sex. Yes many have been quick to point out she's had no trouble sleeping with other men, that however is not the point. When you have, and very much by the sounds of things, your wife has, been treated like a sexual object, sex can become just a motion, a power play. It doesn't mean anything to her, it's a commodity that used to sate desires. Yes it's easy to have sex with people you don't care for when you have been sexually betrayed, it's not so easy to do it when you care for someone, if fact making sex about more than sex, an act of love, intimacy and desire is scary cause it's always lead to hurt... That's where you get hurt. Look her past, raped, shamed for it!!!, a husband who openly admits he treated her like an object, even his whole porn addiction leads her to believe sex is nothing than a physical pleasure people use for their own purposes. Her child abuse. Man it's a messy screwed up view of sex in her head, no doubt.

I'm not actually saying that that is a healthy view of sex, but in this case I ponder if that is where your wife is. Opening herself to you, someone it seems as though she does care about, can be scary, a sexual act that triggers memories, so much more hurtful. I'm not seeing you as a bad guy cd, but that doesn't mean that she trusts you not to hurt her in her most vulnerable place, about sex.

This woman has been used and cd I think you are doing everything in his power to make her feel safe, which is perfect.

But cd, that won't make things ok long term, your wife needs to be able to see sex as a way of expressing love, at the moment, it's a source of abuse, power and shame in her mind. The only way you will get past this is for her to deal with the shame and horror of what has happened to her. I'm not sure about services in your country but a rape crisis centre has excellent resources for helping people deal with what has happened to them and learning about sex as what most of us take for granted, that it is an expression of love, not power. It seems that that is what is warped in your wife's head, this has nothing to do with how she feels about you, I would hope to see that she loves you, that's why it is hard for her.

I could totally be off track but it seems 12 pages of saying she's scared of physical intimacy and you wanting to what's right for her - she needs help.

I wish you both all the best, it sounds like you really do care for her and are looking for answers, I wish you had them.


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## LongWalk

Tell your wife that you love her but want to set her free. Give her the divorce papers with this speech. If she loves you and wants to remain married, she will discover desire.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

Get a divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sammy7111

Are you special like special in the head . She's cheated own you more then once and the last one was sick person. You need professional help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## imjustwatching

Good luck man


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## warlock07

Is this a cuckold fantasy thread?


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## JWTBL

What I see happening here is that both of you are terrified of being alone. After reading most of this thread (it was too painful to read it all), you are so hung up on marriage no matter what. You are willing to grin and bear it to the bitter end because you think because you made a vow years ago this means you have to keep doing this thing, even though it is not working. Your wife has issues about intimacy, which does not make her a bad person, but it does make her someone who should not be married. She can support herself now, that's great that she got a nursing degree. It is not the end of the world to be single, believe me it is a lot better than what you two are putting yourselves through. For what, your kid? And you are thinking of having another? OMG, that would be the worst possible scenario to all of this. I am speaking from experience here, not just mouthing off. Get an amicable divorce, share custody of your kid, find peace. There should be more to life than beating the dead horse of your marriage. I wish you both a workable solution to this problem.


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## Openminded

Zombie.


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