# The College Rape Overcorrection



## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

College rape: Campus sexual assault is a serious problem. But the efforts to protect women are infringing on the civil rights of men.

I'm absolutely stunned that an extreme left publication like Slate would publish this article. I'll need some time to pick up the bottom half of my jaw before responding. Anyone have any thoughts?


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

My thoughts are bring back single sex colleges. That way the rules from campus to campus aren't transportable but they are transparent. The rules you are held to are whatever the rules are, in the place you're at, at that moment. Go to a women's college for a mixer, then you obey those rules no matter how crazy they seem to you. And when they, he/she come to your college then those rules are what they are. 

The sense we get was the the author Emily Yoffe was stating some unpleasant truths so obnoxious to the groupthink that they were banned. She was dis-invited from a presentation where she planned on telling women not to be irresponsible drunks. This seemingly is too much for the snowflakes to bare. What IS consent after you've spent all night doing kegstands? 

BTW how we distinguish bad judgment and regret from a claim one was assaulted. I am NOT YOUR moral agent. YOU are. 

Moreover, what with same sex relations becoming almost required at the college level now, how do the snowflakes plan on addressing same sex sexual assault? Because I really don't see one LUG charging another LUG with rape and men simply have never reported it at all.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

"More than two dozen Harvard Law School professors recently wrote a statement protesting the university’s new rules for handling sexual assault claims. “Harvard has adopted procedures for deciding cases of alleged sexual misconduct which lack the most basic elements of fairness and due process,” they wrote.

Stopping sexual assaults on campus is a worthy goal. Doing it in a way that protects everyone involved is a necessary aspect of achieving that goal. There is probably some backlash going on now in response to decades of school administrators turning a blind eye. The pendulum may have overswung for some of the accused. That's human nature.


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## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

I think you have to start with acknowledging that there is no perfect answer to this. Then you can try to compromise on where we end up on the scale of grayness.
I think the Harvard Law School statement is the one I was referencing in another thread where the profs made the point that if you require this clear and definite "yes" then every time you have a consensual situation without the clear and definite "yes" you then have criminals based on the technicality and so the rule is not workable. IMO its just not realistic to think we humans are going to structure some of our most basic acts this way.
Then you have these situations like the Duke Lacrosse Players and now the UV Frat where the cases fall apart after individuals or whole groups have been convicted in the court of public opinion and penalties already handed out only to find out that there may not be anything to it. How does the individuals, the Fraternity, the whole Greek System at UV get made whole after being punished before the facts were in?
We have to be careful to distinguish between the fact that any number of sexual assaults is too many and how we proceed when they are alleged.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

After reading the slate article, I really am convinced that rape statistics at university are so greatly overblown, that they are going to eventually blow back and harm those who were actually raped.


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## Malpheous (May 3, 2013)

I think that all instances of sexual assault or rape, etc, should be reported directly to local law enforcement and handled there and only there. 

Universities and the Military have a long history of mishandling. Which should be expected as neither are in the business of law enforcement or investigation. Military is only in a pseudo sense.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

Anyone remember the "Forbes" columnist that posted an opinion about having intoxicated women around frats. Brother got sacked. 

I read the original article and didn't see any "victim blaming" going on. It was a warning piece.

_In another passage, Frezza advised young frat bros, "Never, ever take a drunk female guest to your bedroom — even if you have a signed contract indicating sexual consent."

"Based on new standards being promulgated on campus, all consent is null and void the minute a woman becomes intoxicated — even if she is your fiancée," he wrote.

"And while a rape charge under these circumstances is unlikely to hold up in a court of law, it doesn't take much for a campus kangaroo court to get you expelled, ruining your life while saddling your fraternity with a reputation for harboring rapists," he said.
_

It is such a divisive issue now, you can't even discuss it.

Forbes columnist sacked over piece saying 'drunk female guests' are grave threat to frats - NY Daily News


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I would like to see different changes that make going through due process safer for victims. I think we should fix due process, not skirt it.


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

I've been reading comments on the news stories about Rolling Stone messing up the UVA story. Many people who call themselves feminists are saying that RS shouldn't apologize to the frat and that the frat boys can go **** themselves. Never mind they didn't do anything.

Accusing someone of organizing a ritual gang rape every year without evidence is something that deserves an apology. I sometimes like to think of myself as a feminist but this refusal to give men due process is making me reconsider my position.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

naiveonedave said:


> After reading the slate article, I really am convinced that rape statistics at university are so greatly overblown, that they are going to eventually blow back and harm those who were actually raped.


No.
Talk to folks who work in universities and you will discover that college rape statistics are drastically under-reported. Most universities, UVA included, do not have a policy or reporting sexual assaults to police, and have no incentive to report anywhere else.

The RS comment and its subsequent correction did not call into doubt the sexual attack. Details were not checked, and that's on the writer.


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## changedbeliefs (Jun 13, 2014)

The only thing I want to add here is, that every woman who has ever knowingly and falsely accused a man of rape, bears a lion's share of responsiblity for how muddied this issue is now. It is a brutal type of assault and the true culprits should be punished severely...but the fact that we know that it is a very real possibility the accusation could be false (I don't know the stats, even one is too many, but we know it's not rare; see Duke lacrosse) puts the entire "due process" into a state of chaos. The crime is rarely witnessed, the evidence can be ambiguous; knowing so many accusers have lied in the past is the coup d'etat in making this so hard to prove. Here's a very pointed and tough question: what's worse? Have a rape go unreported, or have someone falsely accused?


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Pluto2 said:


> No.
> Talk to folks who work in universities and you will discover that college rape statistics are drastically under-reported. Most universities, UVA included, do not have a policy or reporting sexual assaults to police, and have no incentive to report anywhere else.
> 
> The RS comment and its subsequent correction did not call into doubt the sexual attack. Details were not checked, and that's on the writer.


did you read the Slate article, because it suggests 1 in 25, not 1in 4. Based on your response, you didn't read the article. That is such a huge difference, it is staggering.

And I agree with others that the police should be investigating, not the schools.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

naiveonedave said:


> did you read the Slate article, because it suggests 1 in 25, not 1in 4. Based on your response, you didn't read the article. That is such a huge difference, it is staggering.
> 
> And I agree with others that the police should be investigating, not the schools.


I read the article, as well as the same author's article last year "College Women: Stop Getting Drunk", essentially blaming college rape on the victims because they drink too much. Were you aware that the author, Emily Yoffe, is the _Ask Prudence_ author, who has repeatedly advised women who write in about being raped, NOT to report because 1) you brought it on yourself for drinking, and 2) if you can't remember all the details you'll be ruining some poor man's life. 
This is not the first and probably not the last article from Yoffe in which she denies rape "really" happens, or if it does, she maintains the victim brought it on herself.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Pluto2 said:


> I read the article, as well as the same author's article last year "College Women: Stop Getting Drunk", essentially blaming college rape on the victims because they drink too much. Were you aware that the author, Emily Yoffe, is the _Ask Prudence_ author, who has repeatedly advised women who write in about being raped, NOT to report because 1) you brought it on yourself for drinking, and 2) if you can't remember all the details you'll be ruining some poor man's life.
> This is not the first and probably not the last article from Yoffe in which she denies rape "really" happens, or if it does, she maintains the victim brought it on herself.


whatever. You get falling down drunk at a frat party, you are asking for trouble. Sorry, you didn't deserve to get raped, but you need to hold yourself accountable for your actions.

Also, based on the Slate story, the dude right off the bat is getting totally screwed. If you can't see that, you are blind. That is not how justice is supposed to work in the US>


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## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

So I don't think we can discount either side of this due to particular individuals who play roles in the discussion. Having watched the Duke case play out, now watching the UVA events, reading that description of those events at Michigan should be scary as hell for any guy. It also occurs to me after reading the article and taking the information about the girl's mothers involvement on faith, how is a guy supposed to deal with something like that. Additionally, how are you supposed to be aware of someone's mental health? I mean I married someone and only came to understand that they had serious personality issues well after the fact. Scary stuff.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> I read the article, as well as the same author's article last year "College Women: Stop Getting Drunk", essentially blaming college rape on the victims because they drink too much. Were you aware that the author, Emily Yoffe, is the _Ask Prudence_ author, who has repeatedly advised women who write in about being raped, NOT to report because 1) you brought it on yourself for drinking, and 2) if you can't remember all the details you'll be ruining some poor man's life.
> This is not the first and probably not the last article from Yoffe in which she denies rape "really" happens, or if it does, she maintains the victim brought it on herself.


Classic ad hominem.

Either the points made in the article stand alone on their merits, or they do not. Discounting the content on the basis of dislike for the author is invalid. 



> "But the authors go on to make several assumptions that ratchet up the risk. The study was carried out during the spring and asked women to describe any assaults experienced during that academic year. The researchers decided to double the numbers they received from their subjects, in order to extrapolate their findings over an entire calendar year, even as they acknowledged that this was “problematic,” as students rarely attend school for 12 months. That calculation brought the incidence figure to nearly 5 percent. Although college is designed to be a four-year experience, the authors note that it takes students “an average” of five years, so they then multiplied their newly-arrived-at 5 percent of student victims by five years, and thus they conclude: “The percentage of completed or attempted rape victimization among women in higher educational institutions might climb to between one-fifth and one-quarter."


This kind of manipulation of the data is, in precise mathematical terms, "crap". 



> "...the lead author of the study, Christopher Krebs, whether the CSA represents the experience of those millions of female students. His answer was unequivocal: “We don’t think one in five is a nationally representative statistic.” It couldn’t be, he said, because his team sampled only two schools. “In no way does that make our results nationally representative,” Krebs said.


When the lead author of a study specifically tells you that the numbers from his study are not applicable to a wider generalization, you would do well to believe him.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

The 1 in 4 statistic has consistently and resoundingly been blown out of the water time and time again. 

But ... it relates to a volatile topic, and the metric gets attention. Disagree with it, and we find ourselves right back in the 'underreported' conundrum.

I don't know of any decent man that wants women to be harmed. 
I have no issue with the intent of keeping women safe.

But ... presuming that they are incompetent and incapable of self determination, awareness of circumstances and a sense of responsibility sets us back about 80 years.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Something to share with your high school seniors:

From the U.S. Bureau of Justice , CDC, Koss, Gidycz & Wisniewski College Study, United Nations, July 2014

Percent of college rapes that are never reported to authorities-95 %


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

We had a lively convo about this very thing not long ago here. Here is the prospective I have as someone who investigates such things. 

Sex assault occurs on campus no doubt. Some campuses have law enforcement on site and some just security. Law enforcement has tools to investigate crimes that student oversite committees don't have and won't utilize. So the ability of an individual to make false claims and the accused be labeled as guilty without due process can become apparent. This will never be a good thing

Schools should be responsible for supporting victims, encouraging them to report to the police, and after a conviction they should kick the criminal out of the school permanently. What they shouldn't do is investigate crime, especially a persons crime, when that is not thier background. Schools have an obligation to protect students and educate but they need to stick to those areas


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Chastity belt!!!


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

For those interested, here is a Bureau of Justice report covering 2006-2010 about unreported crimes.

Excerpt; 
_2 in 3 (65%) rape or sexual assault victimizations were not reported to police from 2006 to 2010_

Appalling, but how can we make someone go to the police. Anyone got a answer that doesn't mangle rights or due process?

Also factor in that all violent crimes have an element of under reporting involved.

_from 2006 to 2010, 52% of all violent victimizations, or an annual average of 3,382,200 violent victimizations, were not reported to the police_

Link is in pdf.
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vnrp0610.pdf


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## raven2000 (Dec 1, 2014)

Campus rape is this generation's version of the 1980's "Satanic Panic". Sure, there were probably satanic groups around in the 80's ... but they were so few that it didn't warrant reporting let alone the complete sh!tstorm of craziness that ensued and consequently ruined the lives of many innocent people. 

To this day there are STILL people out there who think that the daycare center in California has undergound satanic sex dungeons used for sacrificing babies.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Chastity belt!!!


I saw a real one in the Museum of Torture in Rothenburg ob der Tauber, Germany. Not something I would want to let any part of me get anywhere near.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Ripper said:


> For those interested, here is a Bureau of Justice report covering 2006-2010 about unreported crimes.
> 
> Excerpt;
> _2 in 3 (65%) rape or sexual assault victimizations were not reported to police from 2006 to 2010_
> ...


You can't BUT the university could have a full time victim advocate on staff. They are a safe place for victims to go and talk without the pressure of "let's go to the police". Yes they do encourage it but ultimately they are on the victims side first and they are confidential so I, as an officer, can't get information from them to force a prosecution. They are a wonderful thing and we have used them for years on our department. That is something responsible that the university could do.

They could also teach classes on sexual assault investigation. Some of the high schools came up with this a few years ago. We as officers go and teach classes, sometimes with the DA, on how domestic violence and sexual assault cases are investigated and prosecuted. You don't have to go far, even here on TAM , to see the mind numbing basis and misinformation about how the police do things. So the purpose of this class is education so a persom as a victim knows exactly what happens and why things happen. They go forward with this information to educate others who won't come to the class. This has also been very successful in our area and several victims came forward AFTER we dispelled the myths about what we would and wouldn't do.

These are some of the things I would like to see universities doing


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Ripper said:


> For those interested, here is a Bureau of Justice report covering 2006-2010 about unreported crimes.
> 
> Excerpt;
> _2 in 3 (65%) rape or sexual assault victimizations were not reported to police from 2006 to 2010_
> ...


We cannot make anyone. But we can work toward it by finding ways to lessen the stigma for the victim. One place to start is removing from the questioning or the examination of a witness at trial about their behavior as a CAUSE of rape.


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## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

NobodySpecial said:


> One place to start is removing from the questioning or the examination of a witness at trial about their behavior as a CAUSE of rape.


I can't see how this is possible while allowing for a valid (ie conviction upheld on appeal) defense.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Runs like Dog said:


> My thoughts are bring back single sex colleges. That way the rules from campus to campus aren't transportable but they are transparent. The rules you are held to are whatever the rules are, in the place you're at, at that moment. Go to a women's college for a mixer, then you obey those rules no matter how crazy they seem to you. And when they, he/she come to your college then those rules are what they are.
> 
> The sense we get was the the author Emily Yoffe was stating some unpleasant truths so obnoxious to the groupthink that they were banned. She was dis-invited from a presentation where she planned on telling women not to be irresponsible drunks. This seemingly is too much for the snowflakes to bare. What IS consent after you've spent all night doing kegstands?
> 
> ...


Let's say that a guy and a gal meet at a party, both get smashed, and wind up in bed together. Since neither could legally give consent, who raped who?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ntamph said:


> I've been reading comments on the news stories about Rolling Stone messing up the UVA story. Many people who call themselves feminists are saying that RS shouldn't apologize to the frat and that the frat boys can go **** themselves. Never mind they didn't do anything.
> 
> Accusing someone of organizing a ritual gang rape every year without evidence is something that deserves an apology. I sometimes like to think of myself as a feminist but this refusal to give men due process is making me reconsider my position.


I read something written by one of her roommates from that time who said that she believes that something happened to the girl that December.. she apparently started out the school year as happy, enthused student and then completely fell apart and had nervous breakdown. She did tell some people that something had happened at that time.

My bet is that the story is not over....


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I read something written by one of her roommates from that time who said that she believes that something happened to the girl that December.. she apparently started out the school year as happy, enthused student and then completely fell apart and had nervous breakdown. She did tell some people that something had happened at that time.
> 
> My bet is that the story is not over....


It is fully possible that this woman was raped. And she may very well have told what truth she remembered to Stephanie Erdely.

And then Stephanie, not content with some average rape story, sexed things up. It couldn't be ANY frat house. It had to be a frat house of PRIVILEGE. She felt free to make up names. Now she also made up how they met, what may have been said, glass tables perhaps...

And now, Ms. Erdely, activist and a writer who *really really cares* has just made her story a load of crap. She cried wolf and now no one can believe it and it will be held by people who are tired from taking it on the chin from feminisms constant attacks and shaming to strike back. (Feminism has not exactly used the most gentle of rhetoric in the past...they have made enemies...and frankly deserved enemies)

Someone said this will set rape reporting and campus activism back 30 years.

Bear in mind, Elegirl, from what I've read in the Washington Post, according to her friends who met her that night, she was originally uninjured (no bloody dress as described) she told her friends that she was forced to do oral sex for a bunch of guys (physical force? Shaming? Importuning she didn't resist? blackmail?) and she never identified the place it happened.

And her friends are finding her story a trifle...inconsistent for their comfort. Read that again: *her rape trauma crisis center friends* are finding her story about this soul searing rape _questionable._

I am not sure what exactly happened to this woman. I do know that this story has sufficient flaws that it's like that quote about Christianity: if you are a true believer, no explanation is necessary. If you are a skeptic, no proof is sufficient.

Am I a skeptic? No. But this story has lost it's potency. People who stridently against rape are skeptical.

I will let them make the criticisms.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

We had a big thread about this before. 

Everyone was in agreement that alcohol is a major factor. Freshmen women are the most vulnerable since they are anxious to have a good social life. After a few vodka drinks it is all to easy for them to end up having sex that they regret. The border between consensual sex and rape can be difficult to judge if both the man and woman are impaired.

There must be countless instances of women inexperienced with alcohol throwing up before their would-be lovers/assailants get started.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

> The potential for misuse of Lisak’s study can be seen in the 2013 case of the Occidental College student “John Doe,” who brought a suit against the school after he was expelled for a sexual encounter with “Jane Doe,” in September of his freshman year. The Los Angeles Times summed up the events: “The college’s investigative report, performed by an outside firm, *said both parties agreed on the following facts: Both had been drinking, she went to his room, took off her shirt while dancing, made out with him and returned to his room later for sex, asking if he had a condom. When friends stopped by the room to ask if she was OK, she told them yes.” Prior to their encounter, the two exchanged texts about their planned assignation, and Jane texted another friend to announce she was going to have sex. *Later, when Jane came to see the incident as rape, she reported it to the Los Angeles Police Department. A female LAPD officer investigated, and a female deputy district attorney declined to pursue the case. She wrote,* “Witnesses were interviewed and agreed that the victim and suspect were both drunk, however, that they were both willing participants exercising bad judgment.” Her report further found that Jane was capable of resisting and that John had reasonably concluded that her communications and actions conveyed consent.*
> 
> 
> But Jane ended up being convinced that John fit the pattern of the kind of serial predator Lisak describes. John had the misfortune of being accused of sexual misconduct following the filing, by attorney Gloria Allred, of a Title IX violation complaint against the school, charging lax punishment for serial offenders. *And Jane ended up being counseled by assistant professor of sociology Danielle Dirks, a prime mover behind the Title IX filing and a nationally prominent activist on campus sexual assault*.
> ...


This makes me sick and it is a perennial fear of men on campus everywhere. 

This girl consents to sex. She regrets it. And some activist forces her to change her mind from what is, to reasonable standards a regrettable sexual event after the hangover starts, to accusing this guy, not only of rape, but of being a sexual predator! And again, this third party who wasn't even there was able, as a SINGLE INDIVIDUAL, get a guy tossed off campus.

And you wonder why I am skeptical of these kangaroo college courts? 

Now...taking deep breaths, this kind of malign intent is probably no more common than a bunch of frat boys raping a woman for three hours on a shattered glass table. (Did Stephanie ask anyone at the frat about a broken glass table even? No?)

But it still happens and should be strongly discouraged.

Edited to add: I would very much like to hear how women on this board would 'fix' such a fear. I am supposed to help 'fix' rape. This is a very nasty thing happening to men. What is the fix? And no, I am not buying 'trust us'. This Danielle Dirks isn't deserving of trust. And it seems not a single sensible and 'trustworthy' woman on campus (there had to be at least one, right?) was able to do a thing about it.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Shoto1984 said:


> I can't see how this is possible while allowing for a valid (ie conviction upheld on appeal) defense.


That makes no sense. If things are not admissible at trial, like whom she might have slept with previously or what she was wearing, why would they be admissible at appeal?


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Federal Rule of Evidence:

(a) Prohibited Uses. The following evidence is not admissible in a civil or criminal proceeding involving alleged sexual misconduct:

(1) evidence offered to prove that a victim engaged in other sexual behavior; or

(2) evidence offered to prove a victim’s sexual predisposition.

(b) Exceptions.

(1) Criminal Cases. The court may admit the following evidence in a criminal case:

(A) evidence of specific instances of a victim’s sexual behavior, if offered to prove that someone other than the defendant was the source of semen, injury, or other physical evidence;

(B) evidence of specific instances of a victim’s sexual behavior with respect to the person accused of the sexual misconduct, if offered by the defendant to prove consent or if offered by the prosecutor; and

(C) evidence whose exclusion would violate the defendant’s constitutional rights.

(2) Civil Cases. In a civil case, the court may admit evidence offered to prove a victim’s sexual behavior or sexual predisposition if its probative value substantially outweighs the danger of harm to any victim and of unfair prejudice to any party. The court may admit evidence of a victim’s reputation only if the victim has placed it in controversy.

A good trial attorney in a criminal case can find ways to get it in.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Pluto2 said:


> Federal Rule of Evidence:
> 
> (a) Prohibited Uses. The following evidence is not admissible in a civil or criminal proceeding involving alleged sexual misconduct:
> 
> ...


This. Precedent.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> This. Precedent.


Admissibility in Sex Offense Case, Under Rule 412 of Federal Rules of Evidence, of Evidence of Victim's Past Sexual Behavior
166 A.L.R. Fed. 639 (2000). This annotation lists multiple cases from multiple jurisdictions in which prior sexual conduct has been found admissible, despite the rape-shield statute.


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## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

NobodySpecial said:


> That makes no sense. If things are not admissible at trial, like whom she might have slept with previously or what she was wearing, why would they be admissible at appeal?


A fair point but in my mind, as stated, a good defense attorney finds away to get relevant information in and if its relevant and he's denied then we have grounds (or should have) for appeal. (I'm not an attorney so this is a layman's perspective)

I understand and am sympathetic of the goal of encouraging actual victims to report and participate in due process, however "rape shield" laws seem like one of those instances of the overcorrection.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Ripper said:


> For those interested, here is a Bureau of Justice report covering 2006-2010 about unreported crimes.
> 
> Excerpt;
> _2 in 3 (65%) rape or sexual assault victimizations were not reported to police from 2006 to 2010_
> ...


I think more rape victims would report if they felt "safe" to do so, and believed something would be done. Instead, I think most feel they would be victimized again by authorities and for little to no result.

I'm thinking of the hundreds of thousands of rape kits that have never, and won't ever, be processed. Without that, it becomes far more difficult to catch repeat offenders. 

Universities do a terrible job with all of this. But I suspect victims don't believe the police would do a whole lot better.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Pluto2 said:


> Admissibility in Sex Offense Case, Under Rule 412 of Federal Rules of Evidence, of Evidence of Victim's Past Sexual Behavior
> 166 A.L.R. Fed. 639 (2000). This annotation lists multiple cases from multiple jurisdictions in which prior sexual conduct has been found admissible, despite the rape-shield statute.


And I have a problem with this. I have no problem with prior sexual conduct establishing a feeling of consent WITHIN their own relationship. But I do have a problem with its general use to excuse rapist because she even has a sexual history as has been seen.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

A very famous emeritus prof at MIT was just fired from MMOC (massive online campus) and all his lectures taken down on the the accusation of a sexual harassment made last year about an event that may have happened in 2009.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

The reason that universities are involved in the rape and sexual harassment complaints is because the institutions are still somehow perceived as an authority that is supposed care for the well being of it young adult students. Is_ in loco parentis _dead?



> Prior to the 1960s, undergraduates were subject to many restrictions on their private lives. Women were generally subject to curfews as early as 10:00, and dormitories were sex-segregated. Some universities expelled students—especially female students—who were somehow "morally" undesirable...
> 
> The landmark 1961 case Dixon v. Alabama was the beginning of the end for in loco parentis in U.S. higher education. The United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit found that Alabama State College could not summarily expel students without due process.[5]


 (Source: Wikipedia)

Universities run students' lives in many respects and they take huge amounts of money in return. The university is supposed to shape character, as part of the process of education. An engineering student is supposed to learn the ethics of her profession. There are relatively few degree programs that include zero meaning of life moments.

How much training does the average policeman have to hear a complaint by a woman who feels that she has been raped?


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Stopping sexual assaults on campus is a worthy goal. Doing it in a way that protects everyone involved is a necessary aspect of achieving that goal. There is probably some backlash going on now in response to decades of school administrators turning a blind eye. The pendulum may have overswung for some of the accused. That's human nature.


Is this trying to justify two wrongs?

We should all understand that because certain things happened before this young man was born, we should understand why he is being ripped apart?


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> The reason that universities are involved in the rape and sexual harassment complaints is because the institutions are still somehow perceived as an authority that is supposed care for the well being of it young adult students. Is_ in loco parentis _dead?
> 
> (Source: Wikipedia)
> 
> ...


(In the US) I can tell you from first-hand knowledge, experience, and participation that it is considerable, and in-depth. Further, there is a great deal of emphasis placed upon getting the woman as complete care and support as is possible. This includes counselors, nurse-examiners, advocates, and follow-up care. It is quite comprehensive, well researched, and methodical.

Sex assault procedures are, and have been for a many years, in the forefront of policing. Few areas have a higher priority. It commands great attention and oversight.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Stopping sexual assaults on campus is a worthy goal. Doing it in a way that protects everyone involved is a necessary aspect of achieving that goal. There is probably some backlash going on now in response to decades of school administrators turning a blind eye. The pendulum may have overswung for some of the accused. That's human nature.


I really agree with this. The backlash of sexual assault frequency on campus has swung the pendulum a bit past the best target and now it needs to back up a little bit.

I also agree that it's a result of colleges rug sweeping assault accusations to keep their good name. I hope the end result of legislation and amendments to it is that campuses are forced to crack down on environments that breed the problem; ie under age drinking, frat parties, etc.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Forest said:


> Is this trying to justify two wrongs?


Hardly.



> We should all understand that because certain things happened before this young man was born, we should understand why he is being ripped apart?


Yes, you should understand it, because it's a big part of the reason.

You don't have to like it, it isn't fair, but reality doesn't much care. It's just like the tit-for-tat threads you see here about husbands getting abused by their wives and wives getting abused by their husbands. It turns into a never-ending escalation of "I had it worse than you!" War of the Roses chandelier moment.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Forest said:


> (In the US) I can tell you from first-hand knowledge, experience, and participation that it is considerable, and in-depth. Further, there is a great deal of emphasis placed upon getting the woman as complete care and support as is possible. This includes counselors, nurse-examiners, advocates, and follow-up care. It is quite comprehensive, well researched, and methodical.
> 
> Sex assault procedures are, and have been for a many years, in the forefront of policing. Few areas have a higher priority. It commands great attention and oversight.


If that's the case, it seems it would be far better for victims to by-pass their universities and go directly to the police. 

I imagine it's still intimidating for many to call police when they are reeling from what just happened, and the university seems less intimidating under those circumstances. But if the police are much better prepared and know what they're doing, then let them do their jobs.

Police aren't trusted quite that much, though. It's not necessarily fair, but they aren't. 

And, again, there are all those properly collected, unproccessed rape kits. So the methodology breaks down somewhere.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> The reason that universities are involved in the rape and sexual harassment complaints is because the institutions are still somehow perceived as an authority that is supposed care for the well being of it young adult students. Is_ in loco parentis _dead?
> 
> (Source: Wikipedia)
> 
> Universities run students' lives in many respects and they take huge amounts of money in return. The university is supposed to shape character, as part of the process of education. An engineering student is supposed to learn the ethics of her profession. There are relatively few degree programs that include zero meaning of life moments.


I went to a university that was embedded within a big city. _In loco parentis_ only went so far. 

I can see how things would feel different say, in one of our state universities in the middle of the corn fields. There, just about everything is all about the university, because the town exists mostly because of the university and most of the people there are associated with the university in some way.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

My brother went to Colombia, which is near a bad neighborhood in NYC. One time some students found a nice carpet in the garbage. When they unrolled it a dead body fell out.

Ithaca, home to Cornell, is just a village in comparison.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Hardly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, its not a case of two wrongs make a right; yet we should understand that a previous wrong has given way to a current wrong?

I'm sure that will make it all better for the guy who is enduring this.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

norajane said:


> If that's the case, it seems it would be far better for victims to by-pass their universities and go directly to the police.
> 
> I imagine it's still intimidating for many to call police when they are reeling from what just happened, and the university seems less intimidating under those circumstances. But if the police are much better prepared and know what they're doing, then let them do their jobs.
> 
> ...


Universities have no ability to investigate or prosecute crimes. (unless you are dealing with a state-certified university police department) This case illustrates that well. There is no evidence collection, examination, or investigation of any substance. Any expertise they have in sex assault cases would be far below that of a law enforcement agency.

Here, the university is attempting to regulate behavior. Since there is no probable cause to charge the male student with any crime, they are resorting to the avenues they have available to make an example of him-- in hopes of some sort of chilling/extra caution effect.

I may regret this, but have to add that the instances of fabricated rape claims is a much bigger problem anyone would likely imagine. It is largely dealt with by honest investigators and prosecutors that choose to open themselves up to criticism, rather than prosecute a case they feel is unjust.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Is there some legislation backing the premise of this thread? I remember the other thread that had grounded legislation to grab onto and debate. This one seems more ambiguous with a story about when the system goes too far. But there are similar stories of when the system doesn't do anything when it should. I'm just wondering where to look for info to come up with ideas from.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

norajane said:


> I think more rape victims would report if they felt "safe" to do so, and believed something would be done. Instead, I think most feel they would be victimized again by authorities and for little to no result.
> 
> I'm thinking of the hundreds of thousands of rape kits that have never, and won't ever, be processed. Without that, it becomes far more difficult to catch repeat offenders.
> 
> Universities do a terrible job with all of this. But I suspect victims don't believe the police would do a whole lot better.


According to FBI statistics, about 20% of reported rapes are prosecuted. 

So...have a 20% chance of sending a criminal to jail...

Or have a 100% chance of failing to put him in jail.

Choose.


So eight out of a hundred. If we buy Liseks (?) numbers, that means a multiple rapist who in his lifetime targets 6 women could possibly save 42 other women from that indignity. Maybe emphasizing that would punch up the numbers.

**

One thing I REALLY resent as a man is this 'tone' that women get: "Oh...you don't mind we get raped. Look at how few people get prosecuted."

Instead, how about acknowledging that this is a very hard crime to prosecute? Two people are in a car, making out, he grabs her and decides to drag a home run out of her. No injuries. No witnesses.

HOW do you effectively prosecute that kind of crime? We have little things like burdens of proof, presumption of innocence and not tossing some guy into jail at the say so of one teenaged girl who has no supporting evidence.

I would walk VERY carefully about changing the burden of proof in a criminal court. Just look down south of us or to recent history to see how those kind of changes play out.

"DWB" (driving while black) can be replaced by "DWM" (Dating while male).

No thanks.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> How much training does the average policeman have to hear a complaint by a woman who feels that she has been raped?


Probably a few more hours than a sociology professor.

That being said, if Danielle Dirks is the kind of 'justice' we get from universities, give me a cop any day!


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

norajane said:


> And, again, there are all those properly collected, unproccessed rape kits. So the methodology breaks down somewhere.


I mentioned this on another thread so I don't know if you saw it.

Just to run the tests takes 24 hours. Getting it reviewed by a professional takes 2 weeks. Minimum.

A man who has been doing this for 5 years stated that if A test gets done in a month, that is a pretty good turn around time. CSI is crap t.v.

And then each test costs $500 or so per these days for a legally acceptable test.

In the old days, it was even more costly and took longer.

I am reminded of that scene in 'Turner and Hooch', when this sleepy town got it's first murder and the Police Commissioner comes in and asks "Who are we going to fire to process all this evidence you guys took off that body?"

I am not defending the practice. I am stating that there are a number of issues which may lead to a kit not being processed

-she withdraws the complaint

-he is jailed for a different crime and it seems a waste of time

-she is a soft witness and will not testify

-it is proven with other evidence that the man she pointed out could not be the suspect. (He was on camera in Vegas when the rape took place)

-he plead out

Again, not contradicting you, but just the backed up kits in Detroit would take something like *7 years* to process 24/7 and tie up all the machines and technicians.

Do we look into 20 year old crimes which might be degraded and still take the same amount of time and money to process and fail...or keep them around for new crimes?

There are nuances here.

I favor someone vetting the kits and maybe finding the best candidates and running them.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

The 20% prosecution rate sounds about right to me. (I was a police officer for 25 years) 

As uncomfortable as it is to deal with, a good percentage of the reported rapes lack the necessary standard to return a conviction. Many times the victim will state she was highly intoxicated, does not remember what happened, and cannot be sure about the consent issue.

Others, it boils down to a swearing match, where no evidence of force, lack of consent, etc can ever be proved.

Another uncomfortably high number are the victims that later recant, admitting they reported the rape for revenge or other reasons.

The fact that rape causes are difficult to prosecute may play into the university official's actions. They may be aware of this factor, and set out to make all the male students quite wary through the occasional sacrificial lamb.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

LongWalk said:


> My brother went to Colombia, which is near a bad neighborhood in NYC. One time some students found a nice carpet in the garbage. When they unrolled it a dead body fell out.
> 
> Ithaca, home to Cornell, is just a village in comparison.



Does Cornell still have the highest suicide rate in the country?


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Forest said:


> The 20% prosecution rate sounds about right to me. (I was a police officer for 25 years)
> 
> As uncomfortable as it is to deal with, a good percentage of the reported rapes lack the necessary standard to return a conviction. Many times the victim will state she was highly intoxicated, does not remember what happened, and cannot be sure about the consent issue.
> 
> ...


Just to add to this its important to realize that just because a case can't be won in court doesn't mean that a crime didn't happen or thay the victim was lying. Our justice system is set up to protect those accused and the burden falls on the DA to prove the case. But many times they just can't win the case for the reasons listed above. 

But this gets turned into.....they didn't believe me so now I don't trust them. This is again where our education aspect has become a huge factor


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> Just to add to this its important to realize that just because a case can't be won in court doesn't mean that a crime didn't happen or thay the victim was lying. Our justice system is set up to protect those accused and the burden falls on the DA to prove the case. But many times they just can't win the case for the reasons listed above.
> 
> But this gets turned into.....they didn't believe me so now I don't trust them. This is again where our education aspect has become a huge factor


Just the publicity for a guy accused of this is punishing. I know this is small beer to the lady who was attacked. But now being on a court record, win or lose, as a rapist...

Now he is in the system. Now the system can watch. A guy has a line of these 'failed cases' is going to be under extra special scrutiny in further investigations.

And maybe he'll have learned his lesson.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

I see a similarity to a local case. Here it is a case of three upperclassmen black basketball players accused of gang raping a freshman.
It wasn't 'rape' in this case either until dad read her diary.
The police investigated and no charges were brought. After an outcry from the public, the DA released the investigation report. The report completely exinerated the players, she willingly had a four way.
The university still expelled all three players. I'm figuring if they sue, they will win. 
The common thread I see is slvt shaming by the parents.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

JCD said:


> One thing I REALLY resent as a man is this 'tone' that women get: "Oh...you don't mind we get raped. Look at how few people get prosecuted."
> 
> Instead, how about acknowledging that this is a very hard crime to prosecute? Two people are in a car, making out, he grabs her and decides to drag a home run out of her. No injuries. No witnesses.
> 
> ...


Because that scenario ignores the stuff we don't do. The thousands of rape kits that remain untested (The DOJ has it at 400,000). Police in New Orleans, Philly and else where that don't even investigate reports.

Who needs to worry about making new laws or changing the burden of proof. Let's start by having police do their job. 

Of course, for too many men, it is easier to ignore that and claim the mantel of victimhood. A very manly pursuit.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

JCD said:


> Again, not contradicting you, but just the backed up kits in Detroit would take something like *7 years* to process 24/7 and tie up all the machines and technicians.


But as they have gone through that backlog, they have taken ten rapists off the streets. People who were there because we could not be bothered to analyze the evidence.



> Do we look into 20 year old crimes which might be degraded and still take the same amount of time and money to process and fail...or keep them around for new crimes?


Why were there 20 year old rape kits unanalyzed in the first place?



> There are nuances here.


Sounds more like excuses. If they were untested for the reasons you gave, they would not have been "found" like what happened in Detroit. 

100 serial rapists identified after rape kits from Detroit Crime Lab are finally processed - WXYZ.com

If they were related to cases that were recanted or false as you note, the police would have been quick to say that. That they did not (and in fact started processing them) shows what really happened.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Because that scenario ignores the stuff we don't do. The thousands of rape kits that remain untested (The DOJ has it at 400,000). Police in New Orleans, Philly and else where that don't even investigate reports.
> 
> Who needs to worry about making new laws or changing the burden of proof. Let's start by having police do their job.
> 
> Of course, for too many men, it is easier to ignore that and claim the mantel of victimhood. A very manly pursuit.


Victimhood?

Where the hell is that coming from?

I am fully for just upholding the laws we have.

Guess what? If we uphold the laws we have, there will *still*j be a ton of rape cases where nothing can be proven. Because it is a hard crime to prove. Because drunk people are horrible witnesses. Because juries are not going to just give a girl a pass for being drunk without giving the same pass to the guy...and this tends to drive many feminists of all genders a little crazy that the word of the woman is not automatically believed over the man (see Andrea Marcotte)


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> But as they have gone through that backlog, they have taken ten rapists off the streets. People who were there because we could not be bothered to analyze the evidence.


And I said I was for checking older cases without inhibiting current cases. Why are you assuming that I am saying taking older rapists off the street is a bad thing?





> Why were there 20 year old rape kits unanalyzed in the first place?


I don't know. You should ask the gentlemen and ladies who had to make those decisions back then. But unlike you, I am not going to automatically assume nefarious motives in their choices.




> Sounds more like excuses. If they were untested for the reasons you gave, they would not have been "found" like what happened in Detroit.
> 
> 100 serial rapists identified after rape kits from Detroit Crime Lab are finally processed - WXYZ.com
> 
> If they were related to cases that were recanted or false as you note, the police would have been quick to say that. That they did not (and in fact started processing them) shows what really happened.


Shrug.

You have no idea how or why these kits were untested. You have no idea how the cases related to the kits were or were not disposed of.

I offered several credible reasons (you call them excuses without discussing or disposing of the merits of the argument) why some of these kits would be untested. And you didn't address the major reasons: the women don't want to testify or get involved (according tot he BOJ, 25% of women don't think their rape is the governments or law enforcement's business). Where do you go with a case like that, where Rebecca won't testify? I'll tell you one place you don't go: to the lab to waste a few thousand dollars and months on lab tests for a case which will go nowhere.

Let's see. Four hundred thousand divided by 20 years. That is about 20,000 per year. 

Looking at RAIIN (whose numbers I frequently question, but I am assuming you have no such reservations) there are on average 237,000 rapes and sexual assaults per year.

So 1 in 12 of rapes have kits are not processed.

Here is the deal: If Jake rapes Wendy, they take a kit, and Jake actually pleads guilty before the lab results, they are going to shelve the kit because police stations are not made of money.

Now, this is fine. A rapist is off the street.

It is NOT fine because maybe Jake had a string of other sexual assaults. Read that word carefully: *maybe*.

You want to spend $2,000 on a low chance hypothetical? 

People can disagree with you without being pro rape, being anti women OR being interested in 'excuses'.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

JCD said:


> Victimhood?
> 
> Where the hell is that coming from?


My post was wrong in so far as it implies that you were embracing victimhood. I meant it as a general note about too many men who do so based on this issue. You don't and I am sorry to have implied that.



> I am fully for just upholding the laws we have.
> 
> Guess what? If we uphold the laws we have, there will *still*j be a ton of rape cases where nothing can be proven. Because it is a hard crime to prove. Because drunk people are horrible witnesses. Because juries are not going to just give a girl a pass for being drunk without giving the same pass to the guy...and this tends to drive many feminists of all genders a little crazy that the word of the woman is not automatically believed over the man (see Andrea Marcotte)


Sure. 

But we as a society fall short on the stuff that we could do. The fact that it is hard does not mean we should not try.

We don't process those kits because it is too expensive, but we have plenty of funds to get drug sniffing dogs and weaponize unneeded SWAT teams because we think that is important. Our actions show where our priorities lie.

The Detroit police identified 100 serial rapists once they started they started going through the backlog. *100 serial rapists*. They have only caught 10 so far, so 90 are still out there. And that is with less than 2000 of the kits processed so far.

If you are a woman living in Detroit, would you really believe that the police consider rape to be a big deal? That male politicians would have let that occur if the problem had been directed toward men?

That is what gives nut jobs like Marcotte (and she is) an audience. Because when society does not seem to care, the people who are effected will move for change to protect themselves.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

JCD said:


> Shrug.
> 
> You have no idea how or why these kits were untested. You have no idea how the cases related to the kits were or were not disposed of.
> 
> ...


The testing led to convictions of 10 people. Sure does not sound like folks who were already in prison. 

As far as it being a low chance hypothetical, what do you base that on? Because I see it as a chance to solve a bunch of crimes. We do it for every other type of crime. If Joe gets arrested for breaking into a home, the police check to see if he might have done other crimes like it.



> People can disagree with you without being pro rape, being anti women OR being interested in 'excuses'.


The excuses minimize the problem. Because there always seems to be a reason why we don't focus on it. It does not mean you or any one else is anti-woman or pro-rape. But when I see police departments excused and defended because they don't test kits or lose them in a warehouse, or they don't investigate claims like they did in New Orleans and Philly, I find it bothersome. 

Police find the money when it is important. When it is not important, they always seem to have a reason.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

JCD said:


> And I said I was for checking older cases without inhibiting current cases. Why are you assuming that I am saying taking older rapists off the street is a bad thing?


It is bad because it should have been done at the time. At least 10 rapists walked the streets for how long because we could not be bothered to test the kits.

It is not bad to take the older guys off the streets. It is bad that we could not be bothered to do it when they were younger.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

New study released by the Bureau of Justice Statistics. Should be another nail in the coffin for the 1-in-5 survey statistic. Apparently college students are safer than the townies.

Sexual assault has been trending downward since 97. Thats the good news. The bad news, still a majority of assaults aren't reported.

New DOJ Data On Sexual Assaults: Students Are Less Likely To Be Raped
_
Note: I do not know where TheFederalist ranks on the political scale. The article contains links to the actual report if you believe there is any bias._


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> The testing led to convictions of 10 people. Sure does not sound like folks who were already in prison.
> 
> As far as it being a low chance hypothetical, what do you base that on? Because I see it as a chance to solve a bunch of crimes. We do it for every other type of crime. If Joe gets arrested for breaking into a home, the police check to see if he might have done other crimes like it.
> 
> ...


I am going to try to merge your two responses if you don't mind.

First, that you disagree with where society in general puts it's money does not automatically make your priorities correct.

Because here is the thing: the latest BOJ statistics state (as shown by Ripper's post) that there is not a 25% chance of a girl being raped. It is more like 7 in a thousand.

Now, do I think this is wholly accurate? Probably a bit low. Quadruple the number. Multiply it by TEN. It is still a far far cry from one in four or five. And unlike that crappy poll, it had larger numbers, a bigger demographic than two colleges, and was not a paid online poll where the results of the person couldn't be analyzed. A couple of activist girls who can remove cookies or borrow some computers or SS numbers can very quickly skew the results.

Because...you know...activist women wouldn't lie about rape.

So let's go with the BOJ stats times ten! 70 women in a thousand.

What do you think the use of drugs per thousand people is? So that money is spent on things you don't prioritize does not make them wrong.

Let's look at the numbers. You said that 100 men were identified as serial rapists and 10 were jailed. Two thousand tests...(estimate) $2,000 per test (including legal and technical salaries) Four MILLION dollars to catch...ten guys.

$400,000 per guy actually caught.

So let's extrapolate a bit. 400,000 times $2,000 = Eight hundred MILLION dollars to catch 2,000 men. And maybe identify 20,000. Maybe...

And this isn't federal cash. This is state and local cash.

So...this is not the easy answer you want to characterize it as. 

Not to be callous, but the statements about 'they shoulda' is just so much crying over spilt milk. An excuse to be angry and wear (by proxy) the victims garment by being their surrogate.

We live here. We live now. So...do you want to raise an extra BILLION dollars just to find 20,000 men, some of whom are already in prison, some of whom are already dead, some of whose victims are dead?

This is not say you do not have good arguments. Yes, police departments should be punished when they shirk their responsibility. No question, be it traffic stops, rapes, or white collar crime. They should also be cut some slack when faced with wretched cases which CANNOT be prosecuted or the evidence is non-existent or sketchy.

Yes, we should examine these old cases. Is the victim dead? Was the accused punished? Is the statute of limitations up? Was the gathering of the evidence mishandled (if they even get the label wrong, the test is spoiled as evidence) If so, just by Occam's razor, they should be culled from the pool unless there is reason to suspect it is legitimate in another case instead of a mere expensive fishing expedition.

So while I want to get as many serial rapists off the street, I do not want to spend $400,000 per to do so. Maybe you have different fiscal priorities.

I would suggest to you that burglary is also a crime which is not particularly vigorously pursued. Do we spend $20,000 in lab work on all of them?

Even if we are spending $40,000 per victim, two 'convictions' cost the city, state or nation the services of one police officer or more.

Or to put it another way, $40,000 (the cost to identify one serial rapist) can feed 20,000 people per day.

If I were interested in a cheap shot, I would ask why a 30 year old rape case is more important than 20,000 living people today. But I can hold the idea that BOTH are important. I just want to vet thing so we get the best bang for our buck.

Other people probably feel the same way.

Now, if you want to shake your money tree in the back yard, please feel free to pay for one of these tests.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Ripper said:


> New study released by the Bureau of Justice Statistics. Should be another nail in the coffin for the 1-in-5 survey statistic. Apparently college students are safer than the townies.
> 
> Sexual assault has been trending downward since 97. Thats the good news. The bad news, still a majority of assaults aren't reported.
> 
> ...


I think the BOJ stats are low. I might be able to buy that 6-7 per thousand women were RAPED.

I think the number if vastly higher if you include groped or intimidated. I can easily believe the 1-5 number there. 

But just like I am not in favor of building enough gas chambers to deal with the number of people PUNCHED in America, I am not interested in sending the dogs of the law after every pinched butt either.

Additionally, the number of actual rapes are probably higher. But I certainly think these numbers are slightly more credible than that stupid poll thrown in the face of men all the time.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

JCD said:


> I think the number if vastly higher if you include groped or intimidated. I can easily believe the 1-5 number there.


Not me, not until the 1 in 5 number is not a grotesque mathematically untenable extrapolation from an initially flawed survey. There is so much wrong with the origin of the 1 in 5 number that it's morally wrong for anyone to be circulating it as meaningful.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Not me, not until the 1 in 5 number is not a grotesque mathematically untenable extrapolation from an initially flawed survey. There is so much wrong with the origin of the 1 in 5 number that it's morally wrong for anyone to be circulating it as meaningful.


On the one hand, I agree with you. Feminists and women who were raped get quite shrill and aggressive. "I know a thousand other women. One of them (or two or seven) was raped! So this MUST be true and you are a evil Republican rape denier if you do not treat this exactly as strongly as I feel it should be treated. Here...as a peace offering, I made the Bill of Rights into an origami rose for you and have a new 'GENDER' based Bill of Rights ready. Very few changes. Just that every accusation from a woman is treated as God's truth over you icky, poorly controlled rapist men!"

While the above is a vast exaggeration and hyperbolic statement, it has a touch of truth.

BUT...here is where I disagree with you. Every single woman here has mentioned that at some point in her life, some guy has 'grabbed a handful' of whatever. Men pressing against them in a bus or restaurant. 

Do I call them liars? Do I? I can't! I have been to parties. I have watched girls get grabbed and yes, they get indignant. Not a ton of harm, but *it is certainly annoying ad meaningful to them.* To piggy back on the 'Teach our sons', rapist guys started with a rape sheet of peeping tom and minor sexual assaults as a youngster. 

So I would be dismissive at your peril.

Feminists ARE trying to conflate that 1 in 5 stat as 'one in five are raped' just for political purposes. They are pushing that meme HARD...and as a man, I resent it! It is an over exaggeration and a slur! That this is not what the stat actually says isn't as 'sexy'. For the pendants who say 'but that is not what the stat REALLY is, google 'one in five raped'. See how many HEADLINES that is on. Then tell me that isn't a 'thing'.

AND I get the resentment of women who don't like being grabbed! I am not diminishing that. But that is more slapping our young men as parents and as paramours than in changing the Bill of Rights on campuses.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Tall Average Guy said:


> It is bad because it should have been done at the time. At least 10 rapists walked the streets for how long because we could not be bothered to test the kits.
> 
> It is not bad to take the older guys off the streets. It is bad that we could not be bothered to do it when they were younger.


Sure its bad, but look at the whole picture:

Detroit is a poorly run city. It has a well established track record of this. They have no money. The have terrible leadership. None of this excuses poor results, but it explains it.

Somewhere, in Detroit, a man is complaining right now that 10 murderers are still walking the streets because the police dept chose to turn their attention away from "real crime" to focus on some case where another innocent man is convicted by a bad DNA lab.

There are plenty of ignorant people out there that will argue this type of nonsense.

Police Depts will always be the butt of criticism because people expect 100% perfection 100% of the time. When it comes to crime no one can accept that it is impossible to achieve.

Detroit? There's a mess that you may never figure out who the ultimate fall guy should be. The city administration? The dept heads? The voting public? Who's to blame?


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

And this is a question: what is 'success' in rape rates.

If one ignores the hyperbolic 'one rape is too many', what is success?

Looking at the BOJ stats as a starting point, is .6 percent (.006, six women in a thousand) a good result or a bad result?

Does this mean 'quit and go home'. No. But I would like some accurate measurements so that rape activists have to explain how much more legislation and changing of our cultures is necessary compared to a known harm.

Yes, this is a tactic. So is having protests and running cruddy articles like that UVA thing.


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