# FCS - enough already - ALPHA is a gender neutral term



## MEM2020

I can get around the use of this word with synonyms and make post after post without inspiring hostile flames. I am not going to do that anymore, I am going to write a post and lobby for it to be a sticky here in your lounge. 

The "PC coding for this type woman in my youth was": She wears the pants in the family. 

Everyone freely used that expression and when it was used, everyone knew what it meant. I never heard an argument from the men present when those comments were made. Folks would nod - yes that is true - she DOES wear the pants in the family. 

With no further ado: The only societies which lack an abundance of alpha females are those inherently hostile to women - think religious fanatics. 

All real meritocracies are home to a rapidly growing number of them. Stop fighting a term that applies every much to you as it does to the men. 

A quick informal list of alpha females I know:
- Simply Amorous
- Catherine
- Turnera
- Trenton
- Long list of others on this board
- Two of my Aunts
- Two sisters
- Mrs. MEM - AKA The Good Wife
- Many executives I have worked with

Alpha means leader - means powerful - it doesn't mean: Man who abuses his power over women. 

And one more thing. Alpha females are hot. And those that mix a lot of alpha and beta together make great spouses and co-parents.


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## Michie

Relationships are not struggles for power and they don't need leaders they need partners with equal respect and responsibility for said relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

M,
If you think you can change the basic nature of all those alpha females feel free to give it your best shot. 




Michie said:


> Relationships are not struggles for power and they don't need leaders they need partners with equal respect and responsibility for said relationship.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Michie

It has nothing to do with changing anything, or anyone. Regardless of personality an who a natural leader it takes two people to make a relationship, and it would be very unfulfilling otherwise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## greenpearl

Information from Wikipedia

Alpha

In social animals, the alpha is the individual in the community with the highest rank. Male or female individuals or both can be alphas, depending on their species. Where one male and one female fulfill this role, they are referred to as the alpha pair. Other animals in the same social group may exhibit deference or other symbolic signs of respect particular to their species towards the alpha or alphas.
In hierarchal social animals, alphas usually gain preferential access to food and other desirable items or activities, though the extent of this social effect varies widely by species. Male and/or female alphas may gain preferential access to sex or mates, and in some species only alphas or an alpha pair is permitted to reproduce.
Alphas may achieve their status by means of superior physical prowess and/or through social efforts and building alliances within the group.[1]
The position of alpha also changes in some species, usually through a physical fight between a dominate and subordinate animal. Such fights may or may not be to the death, with relevant behavior varying between circumstance and species.


Beta and Omega

Social animals in a hierarchic community have are assigned ranks for the purpose of scientific study. Six of these ranks have attracted special attention in ethology and been given applicable names: alpha, beta, gamma, delta, epsilon, and omega.[citation needed]
Beta animals often act as second-in-command to the reigning alpha or alphas and will act as new alpha animals if an alpha dies. In some species of birds, males pair up in twos when courting, the beta male aiding the alpha male. The beta male does not generally get to mate with the female birds, but if the alpha dies, he takes over the alpha's females, becoming the new alpha.[citation needed] It has been found that the social context of the animals has a significant impact on courtship behaviour and the overall reproductive success of that animal.[2]
Omega (usually rendered ω) is an antonym used to refer to the lowest caste of the hierarchical society. Omega animals are subordinate to all others in the community, and are expected by others in the group to remain submissive to everyone. Omega animals may be also be used as communal scapegoats or outlets for frustration, or given the lowest priority when distributing food.


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## fetishwife

My wife is a full time working professional and very alpha by nature.

However, Ive had multiple discussions with her about how its important that one of us have FINAL decision making authority on occasional issues that cant be resolved....she agrees that it is me....however, in practice its hard to get her to give in on certain issues...but I have pulled it off.

When you have two alphas in a relationship.....(that must happen in gay relationships too?)...its tough.

I think it might be nice if i had a beta wife.....but maybe it would be boring? 

Or maybe it would be GREAT!


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## RandomDude

Alpha pairs runs the risk of a sh-tload of problems including toxic dynamics and power struggles, my STBX and I's relationship was testament to that

If healthy dynamics are established and the foundations of the marriage is rock solid then sure, I can see it working, but that takes two, and ALOT of work. Something I don't think we will ever live to experience with each other no more.


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## Mavash.

I'm a toned down alpha female. Takes a bit of self discipline and a sincere desire to change but it can be done. Helps that I love my husband enough to turn over the reigns to him. I abused my power and it cost me. I won't do that anymore. My marriage is too important for that. I've listened and learned from most of the men here. I can be strong and soft at the same time. It truly is all about balance.


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## RandomDude

Sad... I've always wanted alpha females, someone I can walk side by side you know... but I never expected so much work to deal with them!!!


Well then again, I've only married one so far, but meh, think one is enough


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## fetishwife

I have no idea what it might be like to be loved by a beta female. Ive only had the one wife for 23 years and 2 alpha f*&^buddy girlfriends before that who were not even exclusive to me.

I can only imagine in might be nice to have some woman want to rub my feet, give me a back massage, or wash my back without being asked...bring me coffee in bed, comfort me, always think I had all the answers without constant questioning and alternate opinions....lol....maybe even offer certain adult acts JUST for the purpose of pleasing me.....

I think alpha woman in bed is one who is interested in pleasing herself and expecting me to please her.....as much as she has improved sexually in her mid 40's..I still dont get the sense that she actually gets off on the idea of giving me pleasure...although Im not sure....

But she is perfectly happy to have me bust my hands, ass, balls, mouth in giving her pleasure....

Me wifey can be very feminine occasionally when she wants to be, usually she does it as a special treat for me during the deed....says something like "I love being YOUR wife..."...or "I'm surrendering to you.." something nice and more submissive like that....

For her that is a very non-alpha "I give up the power to you" statement.....like she is telling me she BELONGS to me.

Do beta women do that as a matter of course?

To get those kind of words out of an alpha woman who runs a business with 70 employees and is called a dragon lady at work....

Hey I must be pretty good!


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## that_girl

I'm super alpha at work. I get shet done and I run committees and professional developments and I've only been there 3 months 

I was alpha when I was single. But...eh...I like just doing what I do and H does what he does. I don't want to have all the power or be all in charge. We just do what needs to be done. 

Like Bill Cosby said, "I saw the boss' job, and I didn't WANT it."


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## Caribbean Man

MEM11363 said:


> I can get around the use of this word with synonyms and make post after post without inspiring hostile flames. I am not going to do that anymore, I am going to write a post and lobby for it to be a sticky here in your lounge.
> 
> The "PC coding for this type woman in my youth was": She wears the pants in the family.
> 
> Everyone freely used that expression and when it was used, everyone knew what it meant. I never heard an argument from the men present when those comments were made. Folks would nod - yes that is true - she DOES wear the pants in the family.
> 
> With no further ado: The only societies which lack an abundance of alpha females are those inherently hostile to women - think religious fanatics.
> 
> All real meritocracies are home to a rapidly growing number of them. Stop fighting a term that applies every much to you as it does to the men.
> 
> A quick informal list of alpha females I know:
> - Simply Amorous
> - Catherine
> - Turnera
> - Trenton
> - Long list of others on this board
> - Two of my Aunts
> - Two sisters
> - Mrs. MEM - AKA The Good Wife
> - Many executives I have worked with
> 
> Alpha means leader - means powerful - it doesn't mean: Man who abuses his power over women.
> 
> And one more thing. Alpha females are hot. And those that mix a lot of alpha and beta together make great spouses and co-parents.


:iagree:

Also Alpha females do not run in a pack,

THEY LEAD THE PACK.
They are very easily recognizable. Men step aside and let them lead. You cannot fight an Alpha female. Alpha females don't get into cat fights , they have no time for that.
When they speak, it's with a certain amount of authority, they don't look for validation.
They choose their battles carefully , and when they strike its deadly.
They are fiercely loyal to their family.
One of the most important trait they have in common with their male contemporaries respect.

Because they respect themselves, they NEVER take disrespect.

PS, Simply Amorous and Trenton,
DEFINITELY ALPHA FEMALES!


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## Caribbean Man

Mavash. said:


> I'm a toned down alpha female. Takes a bit of self discipline and a sincere desire to change but it can be done. Helps that I love my husband enough to turn over the reigns to him. I abused my power and it cost me. I won't do that anymore. My marriage is too important for that. I've listened and learned from most of the men here. I can be strong and soft at the same time. It truly is all about balance.


Good that you can recognize your strengths , and know exactly how and when to use it.:smthumbup:


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## MEM2020

GP,
Thank you. 

Good citation.




greenpearl said:


> Information from Wikipedia
> 
> Alpha
> 
> In social animals, the alpha is the individual in the community with the highest rank. Male or female individuals or both can be alphas, depending on their species. Where one male and one female fulfill this role, they are referred to as the alpha pair. Other animals in the same social group may exhibit deference or other symbolic signs of respect particular to their species towards the alpha or alphas.
> In hierarchal social animals, alphas usually gain preferential access to food and other desirable items or activities, though the extent of this social effect varies widely by species. Male and/or female alphas may gain preferential access to sex or mates, and in some species only alphas or an alpha pair is permitted to reproduce.
> Alphas may achieve their status by means of superior physical prowess and/or through social efforts and building alliances within the group.[1]
> The position of alpha also changes in some species, usually through a physical fight between a dominate and subordinate animal. Such fights may or may not be to the death, with relevant behavior varying between circumstance and species.
> 
> 
> Beta and Omega
> 
> Social animals in a hierarchic community have are assigned ranks for the purpose of scientific study. Six of these ranks have attracted special attention in ethology and been given applicable names: alpha, beta, gamma, delta, epsilon, and omega.[citation needed]
> Beta animals often act as second-in-command to the reigning alpha or alphas and will act as new alpha animals if an alpha dies. In some species of birds, males pair up in twos when courting, the beta male aiding the alpha male. The beta male does not generally get to mate with the female birds, but if the alpha dies, he takes over the alpha's females, becoming the new alpha.[citation needed] It has been found that the social context of the animals has a significant impact on courtship behaviour and the overall reproductive success of that animal.[2]
> Omega (usually rendered ω) is an antonym used to refer to the lowest caste of the hierarchical society. Omega animals are subordinate to all others in the community, and are expected by others in the group to remain submissive to everyone. Omega animals may be also be used as communal scapegoats or outlets for frustration, or given the lowest priority when distributing food.


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## MEM2020

TG,
You definitely belong on my list. 




that_girl said:


> I'm super alpha at work. I get shet done and I run committees and professional developments and I've only been there 3 months
> 
> I was alpha when I was single. But...eh...I like just doing what I do and H does what he does. I don't want to have all the power or be all in charge. We just do what needs to be done.
> 
> Like Bill Cosby said, "I saw the boss' job, and I didn't WANT it."


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## MEM2020

M,
Balance is important. Self awareness is very important as you have learned. Mrs. MEM often inflicts a LOT of pain when she is not getting her way. 

We recently had a series of conversations about that. We are both making a good faith effort to rebalance the marriage. It is challenging - mother nature is quite powerful and traits are etched deep. 





Mavash. said:


> I'm a toned down alpha female. Takes a bit of self discipline and a sincere desire to change but it can be done. Helps that I love my husband enough to turn over the reigns to him. I abused my power and it cost me. I won't do that anymore. My marriage is too important for that. I've listened and learned from most of the men here. I can be strong and soft at the same time. It truly is all about balance.


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## SimplyAmorous

> *MEM11363 said*: A quick informal list of alpha females I know:
> 
> - Simply Amorous
> - Catherine
> - Turnera
> - Trenton
> - Long list of others on this board
> - Two of my Aunts
> - Two sisters
> - Mrs. MEM - AKA The Good Wife
> - Many executives I have worked with


I had to laugh seeing my persona here... does it show that much ! I am just a simple SAHM... But yeah... the reference to "wearing the pants"... Many times over the years.... even the guys at my husbands workplace run with that one... he just laughs & jokes right along with them ~ adding to their making more jokes about it, strap ons, whips & all...







... I think they envision me like this -given how he lets them go on.....









But ya know... He would have never stayed with me or wanted me had he not experienced my very sensitive side...this is where his







connected with mine - that vulnerability before him. 

My temperament is conflicted... I am high spirited on both ends of this...He will often say - he will take the GOOD with the BAD ...cause otherwise it just wouldn't be *ME*. Ya know... I've teared up over him saying that to me, cause honestly - I have my moments. Don't we all? I do go out of my way to make up for it though.... this helps. 

I can be very challenging mentally ~ Depending. I would not fare well with a man like myself ~ When I say my husband can handle me, I mean that. He does it with open arms & so often getting me to laugh at myself .











> *Michie said*: Regardless of personality an who a natural leader it takes two people to make a relationship, and it would be very unfulfilling otherwise.


 I so agree with this ! I would never be happy if my husband was suffering inside ~ it would suck the life out of me...(and it should )...if this was my mentality in marriage....







...we would have never lasted. 

A team effort ~ how very important ~ both of us are self aware for the most part...his weaknesses just happen to be my natural strengths... and my weaknesses happen to be his natural strengths...We bear with one another in this walk hand in hand . 



> *MEM11363 said*: Balance is important. Self awareness is very important as you have learned. Mrs. MEM often inflicts a LOT of pain when she is not getting her way.
> 
> We recently had a series of conversations about that. We are both making a good faith effort to rebalance the marriage. It is challenging - mother nature is quite powerful and traits are etched deep.


 This self awareness thing is HUGE ...for every one of us... Self-Awareness and Personal Development



> To perfect your management skills, the best place to start is self-awareness. Self-awareness means knowing your values, personality, needs, habits, emotions, strengths, weaknesses, etc.
> 
> With a sense of who you are and a vision of the person you want to become, a plan for professional or personal development can be created. Moreover, self-awareness allows you to motivate yourself and manage your stress better, helps you with your intuitive decision making, and helps you to lead and motivate others more effectively. Self-awareness is very useful.


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## Lyris

fetishwife said:


> I have no idea what it might be like to be loved by a beta female. Ive only had the one wife for 23 years and 2 alpha f*&^buddy girlfriends before that who were not even exclusive to me.
> 
> I can only imagine in might be nice to have some woman want to rub my feet, give me a back massage, or wash my back without being asked...bring me coffee in bed, comfort me, always think I had all the answers without constant questioning and alternate opinions....lol....maybe even offer certain adult acts JUST for the purpose of pleasing me.....
> 
> I think alpha woman in bed is one who is interested in pleasing herself and expecting me to please her.....as much as she has improved sexually in her mid 40's..I still dont get the sense that she actually gets off on the idea of giving me pleasure...although Im not sure....
> 
> But she is perfectly happy to have me bust my hands, ass, balls, mouth in giving her pleasure....
> 
> Me wifey can be very feminine occasionally when she wants to be, usually she does it as a special treat for me during the deed....says something like "I love being YOUR wife..."...or "I'm surrendering to you.." something nice and more submissive like that....
> 
> For her that is a very non-alpha "I give up the power to you" statement.....like she is telling me she BELONGS to me.
> 
> Do beta women do that as a matter of course?
> 
> To get those kind of words out of an alpha woman who runs a business with 70 employees and is called a dragon lady at work....
> 
> Hey I must be pretty good!


That's not an alpha woman. That's a selfish woman. 

I'm in charge at work. I'm in charge with my kids. My husband and I have different spheres of influence at home, no-one's really in charge. No-one routinely has the final say. We both have veto power though.


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## BjornFree

Is there a gender neutral term for a person who simply does not give a sh!t about social hierarchy of wolves?...Forget that, I just realized I don't give a sh!t.


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## Caribbean Man

BjornFree said:


> Is there a gender neutral term for a person who simply does not give a sh!t about social hierarchy of wolves?...Forget that, I just realized I don't give a sh!t.


Yup!
It's called BjorneFree !


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## BjornFree

Caribbean Man said:


> Yup!
> It's called BjorneFree !


Ding Ding Ding we have a winner

But really, on a serious note though, people are painting the picture that alpha represents the end all. Personally I find nothing wrong with the shy ones who don't take charge from the word go. They're quite alluring in their shyness.


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## BjornFree

MEM11363 said:


> M,
> If you think you can change the basic nature of all those alpha females feel free to give it your best shot.


But the fact is all these alpha females will still drop the alpha if you know how to turn them on.


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## Mavash.

Caribbean Man said:


> Good that you can recognize your strengths , and know exactly how and when to use it.:smthumbup:


I have learned there is some serious power to be had in submission. I'm strong and tough as nails but there is no need to be that way with my husband. It's a beautiful thing to love freely without feeling the need to control. 

It has awakened some very deep feelings in my husband. Everything I give to him he gives back tenfold. It's totally worth the effort to cater to him. I find it kinda fun actually. Who knew? LOL



> Balance is important. Self awareness is very important as you have learned. Mrs. MEM often inflicts a LOT of pain when she is not getting her way.


Yes I did the same thing. I inflicted quite the punishment when I didn't get my way. Now I'm aware enough to NOT do that. He appreciates that so much. He's so much nicer to me since I've dropped this awful behavior.


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## greenpearl

I usually get lost in this alpha beta debate. 

I don't know how other people run their relationship. But to us, if what my husband says makes sense, I agree with him, I let him make the decision for us. If what I say makes sense, my husband agrees with me, he lets me make the decisions for us. Or I should say we both make the decision. After so many years together, we already know what is good for us, there is little to disagree with. 

Two responsible people work together to build up a happy relationship together. Who cares who is more alpha or who is more beta? Who cares who takes the lead and who follows behind?

Is it good to be an alpha female? I have no idea. I am more than happy to be a beta female if it brings peace and happiness to my life.

Are alpha females horny in bed? I have no idea. I think sex is for both male and female to enjoy. My husband and I both love sex and enjoy pleasing each other. Do I need him to be more alpha to turn me on? No! Does he need me to be more alpha to turn him on? I don't think so. I do know that we both need to maintain our sexy bodies to stay attractive and delicious for each other.


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## AFEH

Michie said:


> Relationships are not struggles for power and they don't need leaders they need partners with equal respect and responsibility for said relationship.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's interesting how you equate leadership with power. Leadership is, well leadership. As soon as power comes in then it turns into domination, a totally different thing.


I’m kind of like yes and no with what else you say. It’s yes when everything in the marriage is running along just fine. When both husband and wife are getting their needs met and that they are joyful within themselves. When indeed they are working as a team, pulling together and helping one another out.


But your “model” (which I will say after a 4 decade marriage is exceptionally idealistic) doesn’t hold up when there’s trouble in the marriage. And believe me trouble can come in many forms. A suicide in the family, a death due to a drunken driver, use of drugs by a son or daughter, an affair, financial collapse for one reason or another, redundancy, a terminal illness, MLC, menopause, foundations of home collapsing etc. etc.

I think you must by now get my drift.


Some of the above can either make the marriage stronger or tear it apart. It can at times take either the husband or wife’s leadership by way of creativity, inspiration, motivation etc. to overcome those types of problems and sometimes that leader stands alone in the marriage trying to keep it on track and make it work in the hope that eventually they’ll turn things around.


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## greenpearl

AFEH said:


> I’m kind of like yes and no with what else you say. It’s yes when everything in the marriage is running along just fine. When both husband and wife are getting their needs met and that they are joyful within themselves. When indeed they are working as a team, pulling together and helping one another out.


I agree with this 100%. 

A happy marriage needs both the husband and wife to have sound minds.


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## SimplyAmorous

AFEH said:


> I’m kind of like yes and no with what else you say. It’s yes when everything in the marriage is running along just fine. When both husband and wife are getting their needs met and that they are joyful within themselves. When indeed they are working as a team, pulling together and helping one another out.


Kinda like "Interdependence"....1st learned that term from one of your links AFEH 



> What makes interconnections healthy is interdependency – not codependency. Paradoxically, interdependency requires two people capable of autonomy – the ability to function independently. When couples love each other, it’s normal to feel attached, desire closeness, be concerned for one another, and to depend upon each other. Their lives are intertwined, and they’re affected by and need each other.
> 
> However, they share *power* equally and take *responsibility* for their own feelings and actions and contribution to the relationship. Because they have self-esteem, they can manage their thoughts and feelings on their own and don’t have to control someone else to feel okay.
> 
> They can allow for each others’ differences and honor one another’s separateness. Thus, they’re not afraid to be honest and can listen to their partner’s feelings and needs without feeling guilty or becoming defensive.
> 
> Since their self-esteem doesn’t depend upon their partner, they don’t fear intimacy, and independence doesn’t threaten the relationship. In fact, the relationship gives them each more freedom. There’s *mutual respect* and support for one another’s personal goals, but both are committed to the relationship.
> 
> A Healthy Marriage is Interdependent


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## Amyd

I have no idea if I'm an Alpha or Beta???

Is there a quiz?


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## AFEH

Amyd said:


> I have no idea if I'm an Alpha or Beta???
> 
> Is there a quiz?


If you are Alpha you only stay that way until a bigger Alpha comes along. Then you morph into a beta. Or if you leave the pack and wander by yourself you may become an Omega.


Hopefully you’re at least the Alpha of your own world. The “main man” of your life so to speak.


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## AFEH

SimplyAmorous said:


> Kinda like "Interdependence"....1st learned that term from one of your links AFEH


It very much is an interdependence. And no more so than in the child rearing years. It’s when both spouses truly know their roles and responsibilities and it’s working when both are happy and fulfilled by carrying them out. For example a woman who really wants to be a wife and mum, a man who really wants to be a husband and father and to provide. It’s when the masculine and feminine are in balance, in harmony with one another. It’s compatibility when the compromises are ok and neither partner is sacrificing. It’s marriage bliss and I was fortunate enough to have a great deal of it.


The empty nest can truly upset this balance. As can MLC, menopause or any other life changing event. It can be during those changes when the creative and inspirational leadership is most needed to get things back into harmony, balance albeit with a new set of roles and responsibilities and changed people.


But you know these things and have proven that you put them into practice.


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## ScarletBegonias

I'm the woman who gets it done.I can be considered Alpha if that's the term we're using for "she who wears the pants". 

I don't like controlling people or telling people what to do but if they aren't taking control of themselves and their job, I WILL make sure they get on top of it.

At home I am relaxed and passive until something is truly important to me.Then I will stand up and take control of the situation.Otherwise,I prefer an equal partnership.

I will not run around calling myself an Alpha female but I will own the fact that I am unselfish,fair,giving,loving,and understanding of my own personal boundaries as well as the boundaries of my coworkers and partner(when I'm in a relationship).


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## EnjoliWoman

SB that sounds like me.

I take charge because I HAVE to. I was very much more passive in my marriage and not because he was abusive - i was that way to start with and it just happened to feed into his agenda.

I love to turn over the reigns - being in command all of the time is draining. I don't want to give up who I am inside - I just want to share. I love doting on my man - back rubs, favorite meals, taking care of the house and him. I just expect to get similar treatment in return although different forms. I want back rubs, taking my car for an oil change without asking and opening the door for me, possessive arm around me/hand holding when in public.


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## MEM2020

SA,
There is nothing inherently bad about being the more dominant partner as you have proven again and again in your life. 

In fact being strong does not imply any negative traits at all. 

Your H loves you and is proud of you. And I bet a whole bunch of his friends from work secretly crush on you. 





SimplyAmorous said:


> I had to laugh seeing my persona here... does it show that much ! I am just a simple SAHM... But yeah... the reference to "wearing the pants"... Many times over the years.... even the guys at my husbands workplace run with that one... he just laughs & jokes right along with them ~ adding to their making more jokes about it, strap ons, whips & all...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... I think they envision me like this -given how he lets them go on.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But ya know... He would have never stayed with me or wanted me had he not experienced my very sensitive side...this is where his
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> connected with mine - that vulnerability before him.
> 
> My temperament is conflicted... I am high spirited on both ends of this...He will often say - he will take the GOOD with the BAD ...cause otherwise it just wouldn't be *ME*. Ya know... I've teared up over him saying that to me, cause honestly - I have my moments. Don't we all? I do go out of my way to make up for it though.... this helps.
> 
> I can be very challenging mentally ~ Depending. I would not fare well with a man like myself ~ When I say my husband can handle me, I mean that. He does it with open arms & so often getting me to laugh at myself .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I so agree with this ! I would never be happy if my husband was suffering inside ~ it would suck the life out of me...(and it should )...if this was my mentality in marriage....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...we would have never lasted.
> 
> A team effort ~ how very important ~ both of us are self aware for the most part...his weaknesses just happen to be my natural strengths... and my weaknesses happen to be his natural strengths...We bear with one another in this walk hand in hand .
> 
> This self awareness thing is HUGE ...for every one of us... Self-Awareness and Personal Development


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Amyd said:


> I have no idea if I'm an Alpha or Beta???
> 
> Is there a quiz?


Article I found .... The Alpha Female & Beta Female 



> *Alpha female pros*
> The alpha female is playful and interesting. She will make sure to be entertaining and confident as she entertains you. She intrigues her man with her broad knowledge and makes him laugh. She won’t be needy and call 500 times a day. She has other things to do. As she plans to be financially independent, she won’t rely on her husband too much in those matters. She will bring passion to the relationship, always making it interesting. Being sexually confident, she will take you places you had little idea of existed, and will be open to trying new things. Having a broad network of important contacts, she will gladly introduce you to her circle of royalties, socialites and other influential individuals. Having an alpha woman as your date will increase your stock on the social scene.
> 
> *Alpha females cons*
> Alpha females are known for being B*t**es. She will make sure to create drama and exaggerate things to the max. She’s possessive and sometimes jealous. You can forget about “poker nights” and similar, the alpha woman will decide who you meet and when. Fighting with her will make things worse, we suggest that you just nod and say “sorry” a couple of times to resolve any issues that might occur, as the alpha female won’t be the one crawling back. Don’t expect her to accept her place in the kitchen, because she is far too evolved for that. She’s demanding and might as well ask her husband to clean, cook and take care of the children.





> *Beta females pros*
> Beta is sweet, catering and considerate. She’s the perfect housewife; comfortable in the kitchen and a good mother. She’s feminine and loves dressing up to please her man. She’s girly and does not challenge her man intellectually (at least not in public). She’s a romantic and dreams of a calm and comfortable life. She is an excellent cook, and will treat her man with delicious meals ever night after a long day at work. She will also be the perfect hostess, and gracefully entertain your clients at your dinner parties. The beta female is sensitive: rather than shouting and being aggressive, she shows her discontent with tears and a pouting lip. However, the beta is also generous with smiles and compliments and will treat her husband like a king.
> 
> *Beta females cons*
> Beta females can be somewhat ditsy and silly, not always known for their intellectual side. Forget about trying to have somewhat of an intellectual conversation, the Beta will not respond with more than a smile. Beta-females follow orders without questioning and can be naive. Betas lack the strong self-esteem the alpha possesses. They also get emotional, but turn to tears and sobbing rather than threatening words to get their will through. Alpha females may intimidate her. Beta is passive in her relationships, expecting the man to do most of the work/talking/acting. She will never take the first step to seduction, and be prepared as a man that she will expect you to pick up the bill for most of the expenses.


If you take 1 of these 2 tests, it will give you your (1 of 16) type at the end (below)... 

*1.*







 The Gray-Wheelwright-Winer 4-letter Type Indicator Test 







(more serious test) ... or 

*2. *







******* | Take The Brutally Honest Personality Test







(this test is meant to be humorous, but is also very accurate)

Once you know what you are..... then click on this link >>>








The Most Alpha Myers-Briggs*Type? 









.... it gives you some idea to what your ALPHA Potential is and why......breaks it down from...

*1.* Most Alpha Potential 
*2. *Alot of Alpha potential
*3. *Plenty of Alpha potential
*4.* Some Alpha potential and at the bottom is 
*5.* Less Alpha potential ...











*** I am *ESFJ* - (though I have also tested *ENFJ* &* ESTJ* before ~ cross breed here)....which is the 2nd & 3rd rung of Alpha Potentials... whereas my husband is a *ISFJ* - which has the least Alpha potential... which would make much sense of our marital dynamics.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

I think mine has changed over the years. I'm an ENTJ but the E/I's were both 5s. 

I'm half and half. I'm a big ole logical sap. Must take after my dad. Probably the only tree-hugging republican.


----------



## that_girl

How funny.

I got ENFJ-- Teacher.


----------



## greenpearl

SA,

Haha, I need to boast myself. I am both alpha and beta. 





Alpha female pros
The alpha female is playful and interesting. She will make sure to be entertaining and confident as she entertains you. She intrigues her man with her broad knowledge and makes him laugh. She won’t be needy and call 500 times a day. She has other things to do. As she plans to be financially independent, she won’t rely on her husband too much in those matters. She will bring passion to the relationship, always making it interesting. Being sexually confident, she will take you places you had little idea of existed, and will be open to trying new things. Having a broad network of important contacts, she will gladly introduce you to her circle of royalties, socialites and other influential individuals. Having an alpha woman as your date will increase your stock on the social scene.


Beta females pros
Beta is sweet, catering and considerate. She’s the perfect housewife; comfortable in the kitchen and a good mother. She’s feminine and loves dressing up to please her man. She’s girly and does not challenge her man intellectually (at least not in public). She’s a romantic and dreams of a calm and comfortable life. She is an excellent cook, and will treat her man with delicious meals ever night after a long day at work. She will also be the perfect hostess, and gracefully entertain your clients at your dinner parties. The beta female is sensitive: rather than shouting and being aggressive, she shows her discontent with tears and a pouting lip. However, the beta is also generous with smiles and compliments and will treat her husband like a king.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Trenton said:


> It's hard to debate something when it's written in complimentary form but, Mem, I'm afraid I disagree. I could never limit myself to one specific label such as Alpha nor would I want to.
> 
> Also notice that in the Lady's Lounge there aren't threads upon threads of how to become more Alpha or strong willed or determined or examples as to why without this a woman's relationship won't work. In other words, Alpha is not the pinnacle women are told or want to live up to.
> 
> Advice becomes very slanted and easily turned when your advice is prescribed rather than customary.


:iagree: I totally feel the same way as you Trenton


----------



## Entropy3000

At work typically I play the AMOG role.

My marriage is a partnership. My wife is a strong person. I would not have it any other way. Depending on the situation either my wife or I will handle it. In fact on most days my wife is at the helm. We subscribe to POJA. Policy Of Joint Agreement. On emergency occasions however I will take charge. There is never any disagreement because it will be in a circumstance that makes sense for me to do so. So typically I do not summon the Kracken. But I can when I need to. It is serious when I do.

So indeed a pure Alpha or a pure Beta are inferior creatures. The blend matters. Again give me the type of personality of a fireman. One brave enough and capable enough to risk their life to save another. That takes a lot of Alpha AND Beta.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

greenpearl said:


> SA,
> 
> Haha, I need to boast myself. I am both alpha and beta.










You are living in that blessed balance then...as we all need to find...this keeps our spouses attracted, entertained, feeling loved, cared for, provided for, it gives us empathy and courage. Just everything desirable and admirable. 

It's always been about balancing the "good" ALPHA along with the "good" BETA.... We want to avoid the CONS of each of these as much as possible .... Just like in our* temperaments *........which to me is how *I* relate all of these things .....as I don't feel those tipped more ALpha should be praised more by any means....We all need to work on our inborn strengths & minimize the known weaknesses that accompany them - in the temperament realm - striving to be the Best of what we were born to be. 



> *Trenton said:* It's hard to debate something when it's written in complimentary form but, Mem, I'm afraid I disagree. I could never limit myself to one specific label such as Alpha nor would I want to.


It's that feisty assertive disagreeableness that got you the Label Trenton! 



> *Entropy3000 said*: So indeed a pure Alpha or a pure Beta are inferior creatures. The blend matters. Again give me the type of personality of a fireman. One brave enough and capable enough to risk their life to save another. That takes a lot of Alpha AND Beta.


Truth.


----------



## BjornFree

I just took the test and the server broke down processing my result .
.
.
.
.
.

ESTP.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Trenton said:


> *Also notice that in the Lady's Lounge there aren't threads upon threads of how to become more Alpha or strong willed or determined or examples as to why without this a woman's relationship won't work. In other words, Alpha is not the pinnacle women are told or want to live up to.
> *
> Advice becomes very slanted and easily turned when your advice is prescribed rather than customary.


Trenton,
I had also noticed it, and I also tried to start such a thread and keep it running.
This is the thread:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...sion/59902-what-would-you-call-woman-who.html


Feel free to contribute to the discussion, because I think this needs to be discussed more. Both the pros , the cons and the apparent differences biases / differences of opinions across the gender divide.
Its much better than having a a shouting match between the genders whenever the topic comes up.
We can at least analyze it , and come to a compromise..

I also don't think that the term alpha equates limiting oneself to a label, just as the term " awesome " doesn't limit a woman from being beautiful & smart and vice - versa.

Just like there are different types of personalities, introverts , extroverts etc, there are also different types of personality disorders.
So too there are some basic traits that both women and men can have in certain clusters that can affect who they are.
My thinking is that anyone can manipulate these traits, [call them what you will ] by adaptation, to make them a better person.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

MEM11363 said:


> SA,
> There is nothing inherently bad about being the more dominant partner as you have proven again and again in your life.
> 
> In fact being strong does not imply any negative traits at all.
> 
> Your H loves you and is proud of you. And I bet a whole bunch of his friends from work secretly crush on you.


Well MEM - you know upon landing at TAM , I was getting my feathers ruffled with all this talk from BigBadWolf....telling me I was going to resent my husband for not being more dominant.......Oh he ticked me off







....but it was FUN too, I enjoyed exploring this subject...& found







with it. Even though one of my 1st threads was blissfully entitled ....."Husbands who are not Dominate enough & Wives who are - how to reverse roles?"

My Grandmother was more verbally assertive/ a strong woman who loved her job...didn't seem to care about a man....then she met my Grandfather in her 30's...he was quieter /laid back....he would probably say she wore the pants too - but just like us... He was the Breadwinner, she settled in to be the happy Homemaker & Mom.....they also had a solid marriage. She would always share her stories with me about their life &







. 

She met my husband yrs before she died & said he was just like my Grandfather. 

You just don't hear these type of marriages talked about....it always seems to have some "doormat" issue going on. When it's good, you don't go to a marriage forum though -so it makes sense. 

I've seen many such marriages in my yrs...some are really extremes even ~ but it worked for them. 

My Moms best friend growing up, she had a reputation as the town Flirt (and a little more).....she was loud mouthed, one didn't mess with her... she went on to marry the town virgin -quiet ,shy, laid back... Talk about extremes!! They were my neighbors, their daughter my best friend for yrs, what they had in common... a love for horses - built a horse farm together. 

You'd never hear a peep out of him when we'd visit.... but Her....Oh my... she was a boisterous one, very ALPHA women , could be intimidating...but she was so much FUN, my Mother adored her, said some of her best times in life was at that house .... Great marriage they had ~ he was able to handle her.... When he died, My mother told me she collapsed... she's never been the same without him around. 

I could see that happening to me. We're all only so strong. I always say my husband is the

" The Wind Beneathe my Wings"


----------



## greenpearl

I think men who are prone to being a Beta tend to have happier marriages. 

Men who are prone to being an Alpha have a lot of women around them, but I doubt that their wives are happy.


----------



## CandieGirl

As if calling yourself an Alpha is some sort of accomplishment? Really? Just another label. BORING.


----------



## Entropy3000

greenpearl said:


> I think men who are prone to being a Beta tend to have happier marriages.
> 
> Men who are prone to being an Alpha have a lot of women around them, but I doubt that their wives are happy.


I contend men with too extreme either way are less than happy and so are the people around them. Having a blend is what makes the difference. Few women truly want an extreme Beta man to meet most of their needs.

But indeed one would have to define what that happy marriage was about. The wife may be happy in many ways especially if she can get her other needs met by other people. The Beta guy may feel happy in being Beta. It becomes a problem if the wife losing attraction for him because Beta guys can fall into that Nice Guy situation where they expect love back for what they give.

I think folks settle in their mind that they like the idea of Alpha or Beta and then identify someone who represents a good mate and then claim that that person is what they like not realizing the person they like has a blend of traits. 

Some women identify an Alpha as just flat being at the top of the list. They may indeed have some Alpha qualities but I suggest they have a blend. It is one thing to be attracted to an extreme Alpha guy for a short time, but they are not relationship material. 

But I don't think it is just a contiuum between Alpha and Beta. I think that someone can be highly Alph AND highly Beta at the same time. One may be dominant at any instant but they can have a balance and those traits can be prominant. Another person may be balanced but they may also not be super high in Alpha or Beta. Just not a passionate person one way or the other. So they may not be so assertive, but they may also not be so caring either.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

greenpearl said:


> I think men who are prone to being a Beta tend to have happier marriages.
> 
> Men who are prone to being an Alpha have a lot of women around them, but I doubt that their wives are happy.


Yeah... just a little TIPPED on the Beta scale... this I personally prefer ! I really enjoyed this article - not many found like this on the net...enjoyed the points given (further explanation in link) - some may take to arguing. (I do so agree with 2, 4, 5, 6, 7 8 & 10 though) .....Betas rarely get any praise. ...they deserve it ! 



> 10 Reasons to Date a Beta Male
> 
> 
> 
> 1. He’s more highly evolved.
> 
> *2*. He plays well with others.
> 
> 3. He’s more likely to be creative, artsy and funny.
> 
> *4.* He’s capable of emotional connection (assuming he isn’t caught up pretending to be an alpha who is incapable of emotional connection).
> 
> *5*. He’s nurturing and caring.
> 
> *6*. He’s much less likely to cheat.
> 
> *7.* He’s far more likely to marry and stay married.
> 
> *8*. He wants to be a dad, and he’ll be good at it.
> 
> 9. He’s healthier
> 
> *10*. He’s not a sociopathic narcissist.



*Alpha* = attraction building = Dopamine = In Love = Excitement

*Beta* = comfort building = Oxytocin / Vasopressin = Pair Bond = Calm Enjoyment" 


> The *Alpha Traits* are those associated with classic “manly man” strengths. Power, dominance, physical ability, bravery, wealth, cool and confidence. Oh and good genes. These are the things that attract women and turn them on sexually. The Alpha Traits are linked to the dopamine response in women.





> The *Beta Traits* are those associated with the strengths of being a nice guy / “family man”. Kindness, being a good listener, the ability to help with the children, dependability, thoughtfulness, compassion and patience. These all create a sense of comfort and safety for the woman, and relax her because she feels that if she became pregnant, the Beta Trait male isn’t going to abandon her and the baby.





> So *Alpha Traits* create attraction and that “in love” feeling, and *Beta Traits *create the pair bond and makes her feel relaxed enough to have sex. You need a balance of both Alpha and Beta in a marriage to maximize her desire to have sex with you.


----------



## Entropy3000

SimplyAmorous said:


> Yeah... just a little TIPPED on the Beta scale... this I personally prefer ! I really enjoyed this article - not many found like this on the net...enjoyed the points given (further explanation in link) - some may take to arguing. (I do so agree with 2, 4, 5, 6, 7 8 & 10 though) .....Betas rarely get any praise. ...they deserve it !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Alpha* = attraction building = Dopamine = In Love = Excitement
> 
> *Beta* = comfort building = Oxytocin / Vasopressin = Pair Bond = Calm Enjoyment"


Good stuff. I want to be both.


----------



## greenpearl

Entropy3000 said:


> Good stuff. I want to be both.


My husband is an Alpha and Beta blend. More Beta in it, I think. And he is a wonderful man. 

As a female, I think I am an Alpha and Beta blend too. And more Beta in it. 

Pure Alphas might be too arrogant, and pure Betas might be too boring.


----------



## Amyd

SimplyAmorous said:


> Yeah... just a little TIPPED on the Beta scale... this I personally prefer ! I really enjoyed this article - not many found like this on the net...enjoyed the points given (further explanation in link) - some may take to arguing. (I do so agree with 2, 4, 5, 6, 7 8 & 10 though) .....Betas rarely get any praise. ...they deserve it !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Alpha* = attraction building = Dopamine = In Love = Excitement
> 
> *Beta* = comfort building = Oxytocin / Vasopressin = Pair Bond = Calm Enjoyment"


If those are the "official" Alpha Beta definitions I'll go Beta any day of the week.


----------



## Entropy3000

greenpearl said:


> My husband is an Alpha and Beta blend. More Beta in it, I think. And he is a wonderful man.
> 
> As a female, I think I am an Alpha and Beta blend too. And more Beta in it.
> 
> Pure Alphas might be too arrogant, and pure Betas might be too boring.


Agreed!

Also I think what we look for in our mate can shift from time to time. Probably varying around some typical behavior. Our needs can shift in priority. So its good to be steady but I think it can feel like a moving target sometimes. Communication is key with this.

I think optimally for most people the Beta is more prominent in day to day life. They just need to be able to summon that Alpha from time to time. Maybe this is what you have.


----------



## Entropy3000

Amyd said:


> If those are the "official" Alpha Beta definitions I'll go Beta any day of the week.


Not tryng to be a total [email protected]$$ but there are those that contend that it does change for many women over the course of their cycle. That during ovulation the same woman may prefer a more Alpha guy where normally she is happy with more Beta.


----------



## Amyd

Entropy3000 said:


> Not tryng to be a total [email protected]$$ but there are those that contend that it does change for many women over the course of a their cycle. That during ovulation the same woman may prefer a more Alpha guy where normally she is happy with Beta.


Yes, I understand that because when you're "in the mood" you want someone to take charge. So a Beta who role-plays as an Alpha in the bedroom is pretty much the ideal man.


----------



## Entropy3000

Amyd said:


> Yes, I understand that because when you're "in the mood" you want someone to take charge. So a Beta who role-plays as an Alpha in the bedroom is pretty much the ideal man.


I nominate this as the post of the year on this topic.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Amyd said:


> Yes, I understand that because when you're "in the mood" you want someone to take charge. So a Beta who role-plays as an Alpha in the bedroom is pretty much the ideal man.


 I hate to say this on here, but it doesn't go over so well with my husband, I've tried to get him to spank me, I'd be saying ..."Harder ~ Harder" (good thing the kids weren't home)

We were talking about his fantasies the other night... he literally has NONE about coming on to the women, being that aggressor in bed....... his fantasies are all the woman coming on to him & using him for her pleasure. 

Oh my goodness....not that this is all bad, cause my fantasies are kinda Mrs Robinson-ish. I actually like to bring the guy to his knees ....so aren't we a perfect fit [email protected]#$%^& ..... Even if the man is supposed to be the Don Juan. Oh well ...

At least when we met, he did pursue me - he did feel that was his place as a MAN. 

According to this test >>  Take The Lover Style Profile Test .... I'm the Casanova / "Suave Lover".....and he is the "Devoted Lover" ....which was a suggested best match - even if our roles are a little backwards .

And ya know...truth is...I'd feel "caged" if I was with one of these tipped Alpha males who DIDN'T like a little taking charge in the bedroom from the woman...& only this "Subtle" receptive business - so he feels more "*the MAN*".... did a thread on that once, took it down cause I felt my husband sounded a little strange in comparison 

He loves "Subtle" and "Aggressive" equally -thinks they are both







...so in this ...I guess we work well. I could likely be toned down a bit and him be turned up on these scales...but it is what it is. 

So long as he loves being there...







.


----------



## that_girl

Just be alpha when you need to be and beta when you need to be.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Trenton said:


> SA, I'm ENTP dontchaknow.
> 
> Caribbean Man, *Awesome is an adjective whereas Alpha can be not only an adjective but also a noun.*
> 
> I am awesome.
> Here comes the awesome.
> 
> I am Alpha.
> Here comes the Alpha.
> 
> I'll check out your thread.


Ok then,
Lets replace noun " Alpha" with " Extraordinary. "

Same - Same, but the idea is what's important!


Hope to see your thoughts on the concept I mentioned on the thread.


----------



## Gangland

MEM11363 said:


> I can get around the use of this word with synonyms and make post after post without inspiring hostile flames. I am not going to do that anymore, I am going to write a post and lobby for it to be a sticky here in your lounge.
> 
> The "PC coding for this type woman in my youth was": She wears the pants in the family.
> 
> Everyone freely used that expression and when it was used, everyone knew what it meant. I never heard an argument from the men present when those comments were made. Folks would nod - yes that is true - she DOES wear the pants in the family.
> 
> With no further ado: The only societies which lack an abundance of alpha females are those inherently hostile to women - think religious fanatics.
> 
> All real meritocracies are home to a rapidly growing number of them. Stop fighting a term that applies every much to you as it does to the men.
> 
> A quick informal list of alpha females I know:
> - Simply Amorous
> - Catherine
> - Turnera
> - Trenton
> - Long list of others on this board
> - Two of my Aunts
> - Two sisters
> - Mrs. MEM - AKA The Good Wife
> - Many executives I have worked with
> 
> Alpha means leader - means powerful - it doesn't mean: Man who abuses his power over women.
> 
> And one more thing. Alpha females are hot. And those that mix a lot of alpha and beta together make great spouses and co-parents.


Alpha, does not mean poweful. power is simply a by product of being animial with the highest social status. The reason people do not speak of Alpha females is because women do not dertermine what is attractive in women, men do. (and vice versa) While status helps... it's not the same, Most men I know are still attracted to the woman if she's hot! regardless of her social status.

This is not the same for women, who tend to (with good reason) put a lot more weight on status (alphaness). Thus the emphasis on Alpha Males.

There are alpha females. but being an alpha females is not as valuble in the opposite sexes eyes as being an alpha male. and thus it's not discussed.


----------



## MEM2020

E,
Great post. Yes to all of this. 

It is disheartening to continue to hear so many posts that reflect no real understanding of how this works "well" in a marriage. Someone just posted that "alpha = father" in a marriage. 

I will continue to pick on SA here. Does she say to her H: "We are having peas and carrots for dinner tomorrow, and I am ordering you to eat yours"

Or does she smile at him and say "I was planning to make peas and carrots for dinner tomorrow night." 

The end result of "leadership/alpha" is the alpha tends to achieve their desired goal most of the time. And if their goals are positive - for instance everyone eats a healthy mix of vegetables, and if they are achieved by enlisting cooperation, then why invoke some "hierarchical parent/child" power structure that is inherently skewed due to age difference? 

Why is "alpha" so often associated with "male thug?"



Entropy3000 said:


> I contend men with too extreme either way are less than happy and so are the people around them. Having a blend is what makes the difference. Few women truly want an extreme Beta man to meet most of their needs.
> 
> But indeed one would have to define what that happy marriage was about. The wife may be happy in many ways especially if she can get her other needs met by other people. The Beta guy may feel happy in being Beta. It becomes a problem if the wife losing attraction for him because Beta guys can fall into that Nice Guy situation where they expect love back for what they give.
> 
> I think folks settle in their mind that they like the idea of Alpha or Beta and then identify someone who represents a good mate and then claim that that person is what they like not realizing the person they like has a blend of traits.
> 
> Some women identify an Alpha as just flat being at the top of the list. They may indeed have some Alpha qualities but I suggest they have a blend. It is one thing to be attracted to an extreme Alpha guy for a short time, but they are not relationship material.
> 
> But I don't think it is just a contiuum between Alpha and Beta. I think that someone can be highly Alph AND highly Beta at the same time. One may be dominant at any instant but they can have a balance and those traits can be prominant. Another person may be balanced but they may also not be super high in Alpha or Beta. Just not a passionate person one way or the other. So they may not be so assertive, but they may also not be so caring either.


----------



## Gangland

MEM11363 said:


> E,
> Great post. Yes to all of this.
> 
> It is disheartening to continue to hear so many posts that reflect no real understanding of how this works "well" in a marriage. Someone just posted that "alpha = father" in a marriage.
> 
> I will continue to pick on SA here. Does she say to her H: "We are having peas and carrots for dinner tomorrow, and I am ordering you to eat yours"
> 
> Or does she smile at him and say "I was planning to make peas and carrots for dinner tomorrow night."
> 
> The end result of "leadership/alpha" is the alpha tends to achieve their desired goal most of the time. And if their goals are positive - for instance everyone eats a healthy mix of vegetables, and if they are achieved by enlisting cooperation, then why invoke some "hierarchical parent/child" power structure that is inherently skewed due to age difference?
> 
> Why is "alpha" so often associated with "male thug?"


I think the reason it's misconstrued mostly has to do with the manosphere.. the reason bloggers and people go so extreme with alpha is because to simply tell someone who is awesome at being a "nice guy" to be more confident is not enough. You have to break him of it and completely destroy what he thinks "confidence" is and how to display it, to do that you need to be a little extreme. People don't change their beliefs for "be more confident" They do however think twice for "stop being such an effing ***** and grow some effing balls" hence the idea that being alpha means being a thug.

It doesn't, but thugs tend to have alpha qualities. not any one man can be alpha at all times and in all situations. 

I agree with Entropy that it takes a blend.

As for the father. not all fathers are "alpha" but the good ones have some alpha qualities. Namely, the ability to lead, make tough decisions, and hold steady (be the oak tree) when things get rough in the family.

The hierarchy doesn't invoke anything, it's just describing what already is. Good parents lead their kids well through cooperation as you say, (and sometimes punishment) and that's alpha. They cannot be equals, because equals make their own decisions, and while I'm sure teens and above make most of their own decisions, they are not old enough or wise enough to make them all and have the best chances of being successfull adults. Thus the hierarchy.


----------



## Caribbean Man

MEM11363 said:


> E,
> Great post. Yes to all of this.
> 
> It is disheartening to continue to hear so many posts that reflect no real understanding of how this works "well" in a marriage. Someone just posted that "alpha = father" in a marriage.
> 
> I will continue to pick on SA here. Does she say to her H: "We are having peas and carrots for dinner tomorrow, and I am ordering you to eat yours"
> 
> Or does she smile at him and say "I was planning to make peas and carrots for dinner tomorrow night."
> 
> *The end result of "leadership/alpha" is the alpha tends to achieve their desired goal most of the time. And if their goals are positive - for instance everyone eats a healthy mix of vegetables, and if they are achieved by enlisting cooperation, then why invoke some "hierarchical parent/child" power structure that is inherently skewed due to age difference? *
> 
> *Why is "alpha" so often associated with "male thug?"*


The answer to your question is quite simple IMO.
*Some people can ONLY speak from their experience*,and most times their experiences have been either bad or non existent, because they have never really taken the time to _think it through_.

The case of SA, is a good example of an experience that is good, and thus she speaks positively of both Alpha and Beta traits in a marriage, the power dynamics and how it can work well.
I know of marriages where the man appear to be quiet and very "Beta " and his wife, the head . But in reality he is the de facto head of the household. His wife is the extrovert, the busybody always doing the talking, organizing and handling everything, and he is introverted. But behind the scenes, she ALWAYS consults with her husband before decisions are made and never goes against his wishes. In reality, what HE says goes, and there is no wrangling for power between them. A healthy balance exists.

She has very deep respect for him. Nobody could talk down her husband and family, she will vigorously defend them. Whenever it becomes too much for her, he simply steps in and does what needs to be done, to restore equilibrium to his family.
His wife has absolutely no problem in playing the leadership role, the man has no problem n his role. He knows himself and is extremely self confident.

What some people fail to understand on both sides of the Alpha debate is that every single marriage has a different type of power dynamic. Some women like to lead and are very capable of doing so. Some simply like to support their more Alpha husband, and still some others prefer the 50-50 arrangement. 
Observe the pendulum swinginging from the extreme right throughout the entire spectrum of combinations to the extreme left, and you will see that we have all different types of scenarios, based on the persons involved in a marriage.

In the end its what works well for YOUR marriage.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Caribbean Man said:


> The case of SA, is a good example of an experience that is good, and thus she speaks positively of both Alpha and Beta traits in a marriage, the power dynamics and how it can work well.
> 
> I know of marriages where the man appear to be quiet and very "Beta " and his wife, the head . But in reality he is the de facto head of the household. *His wife is the extrovert, the busybody always doing the talking, organizing and handling everything, and he is introverted. But behind the scenes, she ALWAYS consults with her husband before decisions are made and never goes against his wishes.* In reality, what HE says goes, and there is no wrangling for power between them. A healthy balance exists.


How do you know us so well Caribbean [email protected]#$%^ 

*This is* *US*... I literally do NOTHING against his wishes... we sit down & discuss it all. 

There has never been a time where I left the house & he didn't know where I was, or I bought something & he'd be up in arms cause I didn't consult him. My husband is very on top of NEEDED house repairs/ car repairs ...keeping "the necessary" running smoothly (He shines here)....I've never had to nag ... A blessing to any wife. If the kids need something fixed - he is on it. 

But outside of the "necessary" ...this is where I step in generally....I am more the Imaginative / Creative force... lets say in unnecessary "home "improvements" (knocking out a wall & adding windows for more light in our kitchen for example)... planning our family vacations.... It is ME who comes up with the majority of ideas /plans, researches online/ reads reviews/ gathers all the fine details, calling Contractors/ stores/ various Hotels/Cabins ...& with details in hand....we'll sit down & discuss our options laid out ...then go forth...

....Then...well....he is *THE MAN*....the Worker bee ...and makes it a reality (drives us to our vacation destination, builds that 2 story Playset I found in that magazine, lays that cement, builds that chimney ....he takes on the Projects once they are at our door. He leads here. He built this same playset twice at 2 of our houses:










I am very organized .....I do tend to handle the Fort, the calendar, our schedules (all 8 of us), the $$...and he has every confidence in me. But he is the one who goes out there every day bringing in the







providing for our large family. It flows very well for us...like a fine well oiled machine. 

I've noticed a few women on this forum complain their husbands never plan a vacation...I already know mine would falter here -in comparison to me. Should I get upset about it ? No...if one leads better in one area... let it be. If however, he would complain & tell me I pick lousy destinations , etc - we'd have a problem ...but he always praises my choices & we have a beautiful time ~ Kids are always happy too. 



> She has very deep respect for him. Nobody could talk down her husband and family, she will vigorously defend them. Whenever it becomes too much for her, he simply steps in and does what needs to be done, to restore equilibrium to his family.
> His wife has absolutely no problem in playing the leadership role, the man has no problem n his role. He knows himself and is extremely self confident.


 My husband does not ooze confidence, I wouldn't say he walks around with a "Presence" either like some women talk about their Alpha Husbands....no women are throwing themselves at him by any means. 

The confidence I see is simply a CONTENT husband & father who is happy with his life, what he's accomplished, proud of his children... his family... He is not here to impress anyone. It's a quiet confidence - if anything. He knows he is not the hottest, the strongest, the smartest, the funniest... but he is greatly loved by his family... and that is "enough" in his book. To us he is still "the Man".









And I'll always say


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## Caribbean Man

SA,
I understand because,
My paternal Grandfather and Grandmother were the same....

My grandfather was a WWII vet and my grandmother a SAHM.
She was the main organizer and he simply gave her all the money.
She was able to purchase land, property, raise children , send them abroad to get educated. Everything.
But he was the man behind everything.
I have never seen them fighting in front of us, and I grew up with them!


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## sweaty teddy

alpha bit soup!

I'm alpha when I need to be and I'm beta when appropiate.

or at least I think so ...ignorance is bliss!!!!


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## MEM2020

Bjorn, 
I agree that the standard alpha female will drop the alpha in the bedroom. 

Actually, anecdotal evidence says something stronger than that. These females desire an aggressive male sexual partner in bed as much or more than their less aggressive counterparts.


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## Gangland

MEM11363 said:


> Bjorn,
> I agree that the standard alpha female will drop the alpha in the bedroom.
> 
> Actually, anecdotal evidence says something stronger than that. These females desire an aggressive male sexual partner in bed as much or more than their less aggressive counterparts.


I don't think I'm getting through.. so I'll let Dean speak for me

There's no such thing as an "Alpha" Female Because dominant females are not attractive to males and therefore not alpha


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## BjornFree

Gangland said:


> I don't think I'm getting through.. so I'll let Dean speak for me
> 
> There's no such thing as an "Alpha" Female Because dominant females are not attractive to males and therefore not alpha


I didn't even realize that ambitious women and dominant ones were considered more attractive till I came to this forum. As a man, I measure attractiveness on a purely physical basis. Would I get into the pants of an alpha female if i were single. Yes.

Would I consider marrying this alpha female or having a long term relationship?
No.
Not because i think these traits are bad but because these traits would definitely clash with my own temperament, thus leading to disharmony.


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## MEM2020

Gang, 
I agree with all this. I wasn't clear in my earlier comment. 

One poster said: I don't want an alpha H, I didn't marry a father figure. 

While a good parent has alpha traits, and this is true for both parents, it is also true that the parent child relationship has an inherent power imbalance. Parent child conflict is sometimes settled through a blunt power dynamic. 

Healthy adult relationships rarely use that type dynamic. 

So when someone says, male alpha partner = father figure, their emphasis is on a structural power difference, not on the leadership traits that make a successful alpha pattern in a marriage.


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## Gangland

MEM11363 said:


> Gang,
> I agree with all this. I wasn't clear in my earlier comment.
> 
> One poster said: I don't want an alpha H, I didn't marry a father figure.
> 
> While a good parent has alpha traits, and this is true for both parents, it is also true that the parent child relationship has an inherent power imbalance.
> 
> So when someone says, male alpha partner = father figure, their emphasis is on a structural power difference, not on the traits that make a successful alpha pattern in a marriage.
> 
> A successful alpha pattern in marriage is as much defined by what doesn't happen as what does.
> 
> Note the patterned responses on this entire thread. Every one of these folks says the same thing albeit in different words.
> 
> I will abstract it to: I lead when:
> - it is in an area I know well or
> - there is an absence of leadership and I fill the gap


Ahh I see, thank you for clearing that up for me.


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## tiredandout

This thread is a good read, once again, as I have recently been intrigued by the whole Alpha/Beta discussion and trying to learn where that golden balance for me personally would be.

Interestingly, I did the personality test and my result is a surprising XNFX. Meaning, completely cut in the middle with Extroversion/Introversion as well as Judging/Perception.

Frankly, I think this is about right, as I very much feel like a loonie because of how differently I feel like in different situations. I swear my husband thinks I'm crazy sometimes, because of the way I go from Boss Lady to Chirpy Servant.

My spouse is, I believe an ENTX, sliding back and forth on the scale of Judging and Perception himself. Sometimes he gets introverted, though, and becomes the absent-minded professor that is INTP.

This turns into interesting situations. When the stars align well (aka when we both are in good balance within ourselves and are presenting the sides that complement each other) — we work well together. However, when we don't (when we both put on bossypants and refuse to step down, or when he goes into professor mode and I get lost in imagination) — we face catastrophies. 

This was all maybe besides the point of the thread, but was just interesting to compare the personality test descriptions on the Alpha/Beta scale and realize how they both show the same thing: neither me nor my husband are naturally clearly more Alpha or Beta, especially me. Which is why I cannot find the "solution" for our marriage problems in just one source. It's a journey.  And an interesting one for sure!


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## SimplyAmorous

MEM11363 said:


> Bjorn,
> I agree that the standard alpha female will drop the alpha in the bedroom.
> 
> Actually, anecdotal evidence says something stronger than that. These females desire an aggressive male sexual partner in bed as much or more than their less aggressive counterparts.


I'd admit I would love that too ~ workin' on it ~ but some things I am afraid I'm gonna have to leave to fantasy......My husband is just not that type...he doesn't even use the word







, it's all "making love" to him.... he is Mr Sensual ~ I'm the Erotic. I'd Choose the Romantic type over the Rough housing type though - had I the choice. 

I'd like to think upon myself similar to the *Proverbs 31 woman* >> that has always been my model as a Wife & Mother. Not sure Alpha fits ~ though my primary Temperament is *Choleric* which has the classic characteristics & traits (the good along with the bad)


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## MEM2020

CM,
Agreed. Ultimately a good marriage is about two people bringing out each others best and and treating each other with respect and kindness. How that is managed in public/private varies a lot. 




Caribbean Man said:


> The answer to your question is quite simple IMO.
> *Some people can ONLY speak from their experience*,and most times their experiences have been either bad or non existent, because they have never really taken the time to _think it through_.
> 
> The case of SA, is a good example of an experience that is good, and thus she speaks positively of both Alpha and Beta traits in a marriage, the power dynamics and how it can work well.
> I know of marriages where the man appear to be quiet and very "Beta " and his wife, the head . But in reality he is the de facto head of the household. His wife is the extrovert, the busybody always doing the talking, organizing and handling everything, and he is introverted. But behind the scenes, she ALWAYS consults with her husband before decisions are made and never goes against his wishes. In reality, what HE says goes, and there is no wrangling for power between them. A healthy balance exists.
> 
> She has very deep respect for him. Nobody could talk down her husband and family, she will vigorously defend them. Whenever it becomes too much for her, he simply steps in and does what needs to be done, to restore equilibrium to his family.
> His wife has absolutely no problem in playing the leadership role, the man has no problem n his role. He knows himself and is extremely self confident.
> 
> What some people fail to understand on both sides of the Alpha debate is that every single marriage has a different type of power dynamic. Some women like to lead and are very capable of doing so. Some simply like to support their more Alpha husband, and still some others prefer the 50-50 arrangement.
> Observe the pendulum swinginging from the extreme right throughout the entire spectrum of combinations to the extreme left, and you will see that we have all different types of scenarios, based on the persons involved in a marriage.
> 
> In the end its what works well for YOUR marriage.


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## MEM2020

SA,
My W would prefer that I was more emotionally even keeled. 
Would VERY MUCH prefer it. Traits are difficult. 




SimplyAmorous said:


> I'd admit I would love that too ~ workin' on it ~ but some things I am afraid I'm gonna have to leave to fantasy......My husband is just not that type...he doesn't even use the word
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , it's all "making love" to him.... he is Mr Sensual ~ I'm the Erotic. I'd Choose the Romantic type over the Rough housing type though - had I the choice.
> 
> I'd like to think upon myself similar to the *Proverbs 31 woman* >> that has always been my model as a Wife & Mother. Not sure Alpha fits ~ though my primary Temperament is *Choleric* which has the classic characteristics & traits (the good along with the bad)


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## SimplyAmorous

MEM11363 said:


> I will continue to pick on SA here. Does she say to her H: "We are having peas and carrots for dinner tomorrow, and I am *ordering* you to eat yours"
> 
> Or does she smile at him and say "I was planning to make peas and carrots for dinner tomorrow night."
> 
> *The end result of "leadership/alpha" is the alpha tends to achieve their desired goal most of the time.* And if their goals are positive - for instance everyone eats a healthy mix of vegetables, and if they are achieved by enlisting cooperation, then why invoke some "hierarchical parent/child" power structure that is inherently skewed due to age difference?


You can pick on me... The peas & carrots analogy is a little too tame, how about .....







.... 

I have said to him on occasion...things like ''Oh I am missing you Big Boy...we're gonna have fun tonight....I neeeed my fix! "... 

This is a little funny & not sure why my husband does this, but he was gravely sick yesterday (24 hr stomach bug).... better this morning, goes to work, mentions this to the guys.....and they ask him... "did she leave you off the hook for a day?"... he tells them I had mercy but I'll be standing at the door with the







when he gets home. (honest to God)... He enjoys playing me up as this demanding Nympho ...He thinks it's funny. 

I know he is just having fun with that... But still I asked him... "I'm not demanding you, am I?"... & he assures me it's what he wants too, we're one & the same in that with a . 

But so true.... in our past, given HIS way of dealing with such things... so much more passive over me (Oh my)....he didn't always pursue what he was after....you know the story, I'd say he was "overly sensitive" to my neutral mood, or a book in my hands at night. 

Then there is me....When I am after something ...I will do near anything (if I want it bad enough), no stone unturned...to bring about what I am after....."*demanding*" would never be satisfying though (I'm too sensitive for that !)... someone giving against their will & Joy - I'd find that repulsive / demeaning really.. 

But if there's any way to *inspire* a result, arouse, influence a positive experience.... I enjoy this challenge ....I'd find a way to make it difficult to resist my charms... Persistence is hard for me to lay down.



> SA,
> My W would prefer that I was more emotionally even keeled.
> Would VERY MUCH prefer it. Traits are difficult.


 I am assuming you mean doesn't like the mushy romantic. Seems most women say they want this while dating, but appear to grow bored with it ... I was never one of those.


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## MEM2020

SA, 
I restrain any verbally mushy urges pretty easily. We give get that mostly through touch. 

She has been over the top controlling. Let me re state that. I have been to low on the edge factor and she has been psycho a few times this year. Working on that.


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## Pandakiss

RandomDude said:


> Alpha pairs runs the risk of a sh-tload of problems including toxic dynamics and power struggles, my STBX and I's relationship was testament to that
> 
> If healthy dynamics are established and the foundations of the marriage is rock solid then sure, I can see it working, but that takes two, and ALOT of work. Something I don't think we will ever live to experience with each other no more.



it is a roller coaster....but once you figure out its the two of you against the world, and there are 2 thrones, and 2 crowns....then all is well.

it took us a few years to get our sh!t together. we are equals, and love on one another as if the sun rose and set with them...we are very loving and cute...just not to many other outsiders.

my husband is the biggest assh0le i know, but hes not that way to me...i am his queen to be adored and treasured.

but i agree with you, it is a lot of work...daily, sometimes hourly...we spend a lot of time talking out feelings and thoughts.


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## SimplyAmorous

MEM11363 said:


> SA,
> I restrain any verbally mushy urges pretty easily. We give get that mostly through touch.
> 
> She has been over the top controlling. Let me re state that. I have been to low on the edge factor and she has been psycho a few times this year. Working on that.


Better lift up that Edge with a Crane then......a controlling Alpha wife -heading towards psycho-dom would surely plow a mushy romantic into the ground. You do what you have to do [email protected]#$% 

I would think it would be a little difficult to restrain something that you wanted to release - those feelings...if you were stirred in a moment ....but as you say here ....it has it's release....through *TOUCH*. 

I guess that's all that matters then!


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## Caribbean Man

Pandakiss said:


> it is a roller coaster....*but once you figure out its the two of you against the world, and there are 2 thrones, and 2 crowns....then all is well.*
> 
> it took us a few years to get our sh!t together. we are equals, and love on one another as if the sun rose and set with them...we are very loving and cute...just not to many other outsiders.
> 
> my husband is the biggest assh0le i know, but hes not that way to me...i am his queen to be adored and treasured.
> 
> but i agree with you, it is a lot of work...daily, sometimes hourly...we spend a lot of time talking out feelings and thoughts.


Wish I could " like " your post a thousand times!

When my wife and I would disagree and fight over issues,
I used to tell her,
" Why are we fighting each other, its just you and me against the world baby.."
I used to tell her the fight is supposed to be " us" against " them." 
But I really meant it!


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## Entropy3000

MEM11363 said:


> Why is "alpha" so often associated with "male thug?"


If a pure Alpha could exist in nature then they would be incredibly selfish. This is not strong. So a male thug.

For an a man to be a quality Alpha person they need Beta balance. That is strong.


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