# Sex discussion BEFORE marriage



## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

How many of you had a really in-depth discussion regarding sex before you said "I do"? I didn't.

Some of the guys I know cite my relatively low sex marriage as being my own fault for not discussing it in depth before getting married. The idea is why would you commit to someone before talking about the importance of sex and your expectations. Two guys are in couples where they have open marriages and said they had to determine their soon to be wife was open to that as well.

Now the open marriage idea might be an extreme but others tell me I should have confirmed my wife would be into the same sex schedule as I was or I shouldn't have gotten married to her. We never discussed it but I just assumed the sex would be the same as when we were dating (which was quite often)

But doesn't this idea have its faults based on the idea that things don't change in a marriage? I mean how can you talk about something now and expect its going to be the same in a few years?

Thoughts?


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

How long have you been married? Kids yet?

Things change over time and experience hiccups with kids and schedules but I've observed that when sex becomes an issue, like it apparently has with you, it usually has a foundation in far more underlying reasons.

Can you give us a comparison to when you were dating to now and when did it start slowing down?


----------



## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> How long have you been married? Kids yet?
> 
> Things change over time and experience hiccups with kids and schedules but I've observed that when sex becomes an issue, like it apparently has with you, it usually has a foundation in far more underlying reasons.
> 
> Can you give us a comparison to when you were dating to now and when did it start slowing down?


Thanks Conan

Going on 7 years (second marriage after first long term one) and well beyond the "kids" ages. They are all in their 30s now. When dating sex was everyday now its once a week or more (ten days).

And just to be clear, I don't expect any help so no worries there. I am old enough to see some things cannot be changed. I'm just curious if any based their marriage on a pre-marriage sex discussion as a few people (both male and female) told me I should have.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Thanks Conan
> 
> Going on 7 years (second marriage after first long term one) and well beyond the "kids" ages. They are all in their 30s now. When dating sex was everyday now its once a week or more (ten days).
> 
> And just to be clear, I don't expect any help so no worries there. I am old enough to see some things cannot be changed. I'm just curious if any based their marriage on a pre-marriage sex discussion as a few people (both male and female) told me I should have.


Sure. 

We didn't discuss sex when we first got together.

We knew something major was brewing between us after the first date so we discussed what we needed from each other for the long term and our deal breakers.

We have discussed sex a few times since then (29 years ago) when it had become an issue and we resolved it.

We had sex within 8 hours of meeting and roughly 30 more times that first week.

We obviously couldn't keep that pace for long without losing our jobs! LoL!

We have slowed a bit over the years but have discussed it when needed.

We still want each other. She wants it once or twice a week at least. I'm still good for every day but we hit a good compromise.


----------



## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> Sure.
> 
> We didn't discuss sex when we first got together.
> 
> ...


That sounds familiar. Congrats on the almost 30 years!

I guess we are the same way its just our compromise has weighed more towards her desires (once or twice a month) than mine. (once or twice a day! LOL)


----------



## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I guess we are the same way its just our compromise has weighed more towards her desires (once or twice a month) than mine. (once or twice a day! LOL)


Ugh.

You actually think a woman in her 60's would want to have sex with you every day? LOL.

Might as well dream big, right?

Most women this age are post menopausal and except for a handful of rare women who suddenly begin acting like horny frat boys and need it constantly, it seems the majority of post-menopausal women usually tend to lose some (if not all) of their sex drive. They don't ASK for this to happen, it's just one of nature's cruel jokes. I suppose the logic is that once a woman is past her childbearing years, she doesn't NEED to desire sex anymore because it won't lead to procreation. That's the only plausible reason I can come up with for why nature does this to post-menopausal women.

She didn't ASK for this, OP.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I do think it's important to discuss your sex life before you marry. However, it is important to realize that it WILL change even if you make agreements ahead of time. By about two years, sex frequency and passion decline for most couples - those initial hormones wear off, you become habituated to each other, the newness is gone so excitement fades because you know it will likely be the same old thing once again. Yes, you can work at keeping things exciting, but that takes both people, and most people can't sustain this long term; besides, after a while, what is left that is new? This isn't to say that you can't or won't have a satisfying sex life - it just isn't likely to have anywhere near the excitement of the early year or so.

Your friends with open marriages (also true for swingers, polyamorous people, etc.) have found one solution. Being able to have sex with new people provides the newness and excitement that many really want, but sacrifice when they agree to monogamy. This excitement can and usually does carry back into the primary relationship. We have found that to be the case, and after 20 years still have sex almost daily - and sometimes it's still _really _great sex! Sure, there are risks, but the rewards are much greater. It has worked very well for us, even though we pursue outside options only occasionally (but not recently due to covid). And yes, occasionally couples in such relationships may find someone else who is a better match overall, and will split up because of that. Our take on that is if you'll be happier and have a better life with someone else, you should pursue that; there are other great prospects out there if that happens. Of course, over time we have repeatedly proven that we are best for each other (and have a great history _together_), so sex with other people is no threat. Put this into the context that _at least_ 70% of married women have cheated, and 72% of married men have cheated (Hite report, early 1990s) - and most get away with it - and you may reconsider how ethical non-monogamy can prevent most of this.

Anyway, we discussed sex before we married, and agreed to the parameters of an open relationship. We put no requirements on the frequency of sex for us, but knew that neither of us would accept a sex-poor relationship for long (it helps that we both love sex and are good at it). Later we tried swinging, and have also been in poly relationships. As a result, we've had an exciting sex life for 20 years, and are very happy with each other.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> You actually think a woman in her 60's would want to have sex with you every day? LOL.
> 
> Might as well dream big, right?


Is 58 close enough to 60s? With a little judicious HRT we're still having sex almost daily. It helps that we have a great relationship and have both always really loved sex with each other. Living the dream!! LOL


----------



## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Ugh.
> 
> You actually think a woman in her 60's would want to have sex with you every day? LOL.
> 
> ...


I completely get what you are saying but it does leave me feeling unwanted sometimes especially since I am younger than she is. Hence my other posting about porn and masturbation. And hence this posting as if I am at fault for not spelling out my sexual desire before getting married. I guess I just thought that too crass or selfish to base a marriage upon?


----------



## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Married but Happy said:


> I do think it's important to discuss your sex life before you marry. However, it is important to realize that it WILL change even if you make agreements ahead of time. By about two years, sex frequency and passion decline for most couples - those initial hormones wear off, you become habituated to each other, the newness is gone so excitement fades because you know it will likely be the same old thing once again. Yes, you can work at keeping things exciting, but that takes both people, and most people can't sustain this long term; besides, after a while, what is left that is new? This isn't to say that you can't or won't have a satisfying sex life - it just isn't likely to have anywhere near the excitement of the early year or so.
> 
> Your friends with open marriages (also true for swingers, polyamorous people, etc.) have found one solution. Being able to have sex with new people provides the newness and excitement that many really want, but sacrifice when they agree to monogamy. This excitement can and usually does carry back into the primary relationship. We have found that to be the case, and after 20 years still have sex almost daily - and sometimes it's still _really _great sex! Sure, there are risks, but the rewards are much greater. It has worked very well for us, even though we pursue outside options only occasionally (but not recently due to covid). And yes, occasionally couples in such relationships may find someone else who is a better match overall, and will split up because of that. Our take on that is if you'll be happier and have a better life with someone else, you should pursue that; there are other great prospects out there if that happens. Of course, over time we have repeatedly proven that we are best for each other (and have a great history _together_), so sex with other people is no threat. Put this into the context that _at least_ 70% of married women have cheated, and 72% of married men have cheated (Hite report, early 1990s) - and most get away with it - and you may reconsider how ethical non-monogamy can prevent most of this.
> 
> Anyway, we discussed sex before we married, and agreed to the parameters of an open relationship. We put no requirements on the frequency of sex for us, but knew that neither of us would accept a sex-poor relationship for long (it helps that we both love sex and are good at it). Later we tried swinging, and have also been in poly relationships. As a result, we've had an exciting sex life for 20 years, and are very happy with each other.


Awesome Married But Happy! I like hearing these kind of stories. It won't ever happen to use but glad to hear it does happen.


----------



## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

varying religious norms aside...i think it is VERY important for a couple to live together for some period of time before getting married. You do not see the true person you are dating while on a date. You only see them when the kitchen sink is full, the garbage can is full, the fridge has no food, and the car gas gauge is on E all the time. You might find your "love" can not survive the real relationship.


----------



## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Talker67 said:


> varying religious norms aside...i think it is VERY important for a couple to live together for some period of time before getting married. You do not see the true person you are dating while on a date. You only see them when the kitchen sink is full, the garbage can is full, the fridge has no food, and the car gas gauge is on E all the time. You might find your "love" can not survive the real relationship.


We did for three years but maybe that wasn't enough???


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> How many of you had a really in-depth discussion regarding sex before you said "I do"? I didn't.
> 
> Some of the guys I know cite my relatively low sex marriage as being my own fault for not discussing it in depth before getting married. The idea is why would you commit to someone before talking about the importance of sex and your expectations. Two guys are in couples where they have open marriages and said they had to determine their soon to be wife was open to that as well.
> 
> ...


We did before my first marriage. We had Catholic marriage preparation and they insist you go through specific points about expectations about sex, kids, housework, parents and money.
In my case, it did not work as everything she had claimed went out the window once we were married. But, I still think that in general it is very worthwhile. Usually, both parties will take part in good faith.


----------



## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> We did for three years but maybe that wasn't enough???


three years...you did not notice her sexual appetite was low in 3 years? 
i do not understand.

if you married her, knowing her libido level, it is all on you. you can not expect her to change who she is.

but if she was horny like a randy teenager for 3 years, and then you got married and she shut you off, then brother, you got played!


----------



## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Talker67 said:


> three years...you did not notice her sexual appetite was low in 3 years?
> i do not understand.
> 
> if you married her, knowing her libido level, it is all on you. you can not expect her to change who she is.
> ...


I feel like I got played as for the three years it was almost sex everyday. OK at least every other day.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Yes we discussed the role of sexuality in our lives just as we also discussed finances, career goals, kids, hobbies, housekeeping etc etc. 

That was over a quarter of a century ago and since then we have had 2 kids, moved half way across the country then a few years later moved back, we have bought 3 houses, changed jobs a few times, went from a traditional monogamous marriage to a very active swinging lifestyle and now back to a traditional monogamous relationship etc etc etc. I could go on but you get my point. 

Things change. people change. Economies change. Lifestyles change. Interests change and our sexual needs, wants and desires change. 

People do need to have open, honest discussions about those things prior to making any serious commitments like marriage and such. But more importantly, people need to continue to have open dialogues and especially a healthy framework of how they will adapt and adjust to those changes as we go through the course of our lives. 

In other words, yes, it is important to have those discussions prior to marriage; but it's more important to have a system in place on how to communicate and deal with things as the dynamics change and evolve. 

The people that are happily married after 50 years are not the ones that have rigidly and steadfastly held on to the agreements they made 50 years prior - but are rather the people that have found a way to deal with the changes and variations and issues as they occur.


----------



## ah_sorandy (Jul 19, 2018)

Never marry for gratitude! I married my wife becuase she gave up her virginity for me. I felt compeled to marry her for that, instead of REAL LOVE.

We dated for a year and a bit before we married. There were plenty of red flags raised, as having sex with her was like pulling teeth.

I'm now 65 and stuck in a sexless marriage. I have stayed through 46 years of sexual frustration thus far, for the kids and financial reasons.

Being HD myself does not match up well with a LD/ND woman.!!!.

Get out now, or regret staying like I do! JMHO.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

ah_sorandy said:


> Never marry for gratitude! I married my wife becuase she gave up her virginity for me. I felt compeled to marry her for that, instead of REAL LOVE.
> 
> We dated for a year and a bit before we married. There were plenty of red flags raised, as having sex with her was like pulling teeth.
> 
> ...


You stayed for kids and financial reasons....If you are 65 years old your kids probably grew up and left the house ages ago. At that point it wasn't worth it to become a one income household as a single man to get out of this relationship in which you are frustrated and say was never real love??


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

We didnt have sex before we married nearly 16 years ago, but we did talk about it a lot before marriage because his sex life was one of his big dissapointments in his first marriage. I knew we would be ok, we didnt have to live together first to know this.


----------



## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

Talker67 said:


> but if she was horny like a randy teenager for 3 years, and then you got married and she shut you off, then brother, you got played!





FloridaGuy1 said:


> I feel like I got played as for the three years it was almost sex everyday. OK at least every other day.


Women (and men) may change after being together for a while but I really doubt that it's some master plan of trickery or "bait and switch". I see this idea of "being played" on this forum a lot but I don't really think it works that way.


----------



## Bluesclues (Mar 30, 2016)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I feel like I got played as for the three years it was almost sex everyday. OK at least every other day.


Can I ask what you mean by “played?” Like you think your wife had more sex with you in the initial stages of your relationship as a calculated ploy? “Dear diary, I only have to pretend to enjoy FloridaGuy for another 36 months and then I will have him right where I want him” To what end is your wife’s diabolical scheme?


----------



## BigbadBootyDaddy (Jun 18, 2018)

Plenty of women (some men) are looking for a wedding but not a marriage.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

My ex did bait and switch; lots of sex before marriage, and very little after. It may not have been a calculated ploy, but it was a huge disappointment while our marriage lasted.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

No one is going to be on the same sex schedule you are. That's unrealistic. And sure, you should know before marriage if you're at least reasonably sexually compatible, but sorry, man, sex drives change over time, and young love turns into old married love. No woman is going to adhere to a sex schedule if they stop wanting to do it as often, which can happen for any number of reasons both physical and emotional. And if you love and respect someone, you wouldn't want them to do it out of obligation.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

JustTheWife said:


> Women (and men) may change after being together for a while but I really doubt that it's some master plan of trickery or "bait and switch". I see this idea of "being played" on this forum a lot but I don't really think it works that way.


Oh it is absolutely a thing. 

For some it may not necessarily be a conscious game plan and simply drop the act and revert to their disordered self once married, but some people absolutely do change on a dime once the marriage certificate is signed.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Mr The Other said:


> We did before my first marriage. We had Catholic marriage preparation and they insist you go through specific points about expectations about sex, kids, housework, parents and money.
> In my case, it did not work as everything she had claimed went out the window once we were married. But, I still think that in general it is very worthwhile. Usually, both parties will take part in good faith.


That is pretty much my story as well. 

There is one thing that I was bitter about that came up in Sex Therapy sessions to try to save our marriage. One of our discussions prior to marriage about sex included oral sex. My future wife told me that it was too intimate prior to marriage. The nuns at the catholic schools she was educated in assured her that after marriage anything a woman did with her husband sexually was natural and wonderful. As my wife explained later, the nuns didn't know how perverted men are. What was too intimate became too disgusting and not intimate at all.

In ST she confessed that when she made various promises about sex, she really thought she would change with marriage and be much more willing to try new things and do other things that made her uncomfortable. After marriage, she learned that it was harder to change than she had thought it would be. It was not that she didn't love me or that she lied to me, she felt that changing her core beliefs was harder than she had imagined.

We have been married for 49 years. We are in our early 70's. We drifted apart, had a sex starved marriage, and came very close to divorce when in our late 50's early 60's. We have negotiated (with the help of a great sex therapist and later with a marriage counselor) an agreement on having sex twice a week. Sex is defined as either PIV missionary or cowgirl. Never had oral sex (giving or receiving) as it is too gross for my wife. Have never had sex with anyone else. She is a good woman, a loyal friend, a good business/financial partner, someone whose accomplishments I am proud of, a great mother and grandmother. She loves me to the extent she can and I love her and cherish her.

I suggest that the OP seek marriage counseling with a good sex therapist. Even if you have talked about sex before marriage, people change and grow. Sometimes they change and grow in ways that are not good for a marriage, othertimes they can through a lot of inner strength transform themselves into someone they want to become.


----------



## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Oh it is absolutely a thing.
> 
> For some it may not necessarily be a conscious game plan and simply drop the act and revert to their disordered self once married, but some people absolutely do change on a dime once the marriage certificate is signed.


You undermine the point when you say that it's not necessarily conscious. So what would we mean by it not being conscious? If it's not conscious, there is no master plan for it. Simple.

It's natural for couples to focus more on each other and put their best foot forward in all aspects of life when "courting"...both men and women. Men may buy her more gifts, listen to her more, initiate romantic stuff, nice dinners, focus on her ahead of his friends, keep his drinking under better control, keep his nasty temper in check, never raising a hand to her until after marriage, keep his racist comments to himself, be nice and kind to her kids, show interest in her job, spend time winning over her parents and other family, etc, etc. Then it all can change after marriage. Nothing to see here. Nothing new here.

i don't think many people would argue that it's quite common for both men and women to try harder during the courting phase of a relationship. The whole point is whether it's conscious, planned, etc. I don't think any of it is a conscious game plan. I think it's just normal courting behavior --- in some it may be very little difference between courting and marriage but for others it can be very severe----- and not just related to women and sex.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

JustTheWife said:


> You undermine the point when you say that it's not necessarily conscious. So what would we mean by it not being conscious? If it's not conscious, there is no master plan for it. Simple.
> 
> It's natural for couples to focus more on each other and put their best foot forward in all aspects of life when "courting"...both men and women. Men may buy her more gifts, listen to her more, initiate romantic stuff, nice dinners, focus on her ahead of his friends, keep his drinking under better control, keep his nasty temper in check, never raising a hand to her until after marriage, keep his racist comments to himself, be nice and kind to her kids, show interest in her job, spend time winning over her parents and other family, etc, etc. Then it all can change after marriage. Nothing to see here. Nothing new here.
> 
> i don't think many people would argue that it's quite common for both men and women to try harder during the courting phase of a relationship. The whole point is whether it's conscious, planned, etc. I don't think any of it is a conscious game plan. I think it's just normal courting behavior --- in some it may be very little difference between courting and marriage but for others it can be very severe----- and not just related to women and sex.


I'm not necessarily disagreeing with what you are saying. Most people it is probably not part of some intentional, diabolical plan. 

But for some it is. It does happen. Both men and women can do it.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I'm not necessarily disagreeing with what you are saying. Most people it is probably not part of some intentional, diabolical plan.
> 
> But for some it is. It does happen. Both men and women can do it.


Everyone has more sex in the early years, thats life.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> Everyone has more sex in the early years, thats life.


Yeah but I am talking about people who marry people that they are not actually sexually attracted to but marry for other reasons like financial support, security, appease the family etc etc. 

They have somewhat regular sex prior to marriage or promise regular sex but once the ink on the marriage certificate dries, so does their jay-jay. 

I'm not talking about people that once they have been together 25+ years and they are in their 50s and menopausal etc that the passion and sex life is getting fewer and farther between. 

I'm talking about people that promised a sex life. Indicated they would have a sex life and perhaps even did have an active and enjoyable sex life before marriage... but once actually in the marriage, it falls into the abyss in very short order.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Then don't marry someone who only wants you for your money. No one should do that anyway.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Then don't marry someone who only wants you for your money. No one should do that anyway.


But that's the point - no one is going to come right out and say that. They are going to make it seem as if they are into the chump for real. That is what bait and switch is.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Actually I've seen plenty of gold diggers who make it very clear right up front that's what they're after and that they're willing to trade sex for it. It's not that hard to figure out. They're usually pressuring you for expensive gifts and all sorts of stuff.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Actually I've seen plenty of gold diggers who make it very clear right up front that's what they're after and that they're willing to trade sex for it. It's not that hard to figure out. They're usually pressuring you for expensive gifts and all sorts of stuff.


Yeah, there are those; along with sugar babies and actual prostitutes and escorts etc . And frankly, as long as they are upholding their end of the bargain, I have no beef with that. 

But there are people that simply want the other benefits of marriage and through word or deed have implied that an active sex life is on the table but once the marriage is in full effect, no longer engage in that activity.


----------



## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> once the ink on the marriage certificate dries, so does their jay-jay.


That sounds like it could be a medical problem. Like some guys go limp after they get married. Best to get a doctor to check it out.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

JustTheWife said:


> That sounds like it could be a medical problem. Like some guys go limp after they get married. Best to get a doctor to check it out.


You know what I meant.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I want to take a moment to direct your attention to the new members forum and check out the thread about the gal considering marrying some guy that she literally describes as repulsive and that makes her skin crawl for financial security. 

You can't make this stuff up :-O


----------



## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> You know what I meant.


oh...I get it....their jay-jays drying up is your special way of saying that a woman doesn't want to have sex.


----------



## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> I want to take a moment to direct your attention to the new members forum and check out the thread about the gal considering marrying some guy that she literally describes as repulsive and that makes her skin crawl for financial security.
> 
> *You can't make this stuff up :-O*


Part of me thinks that it IS made up!


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

JustTheWife said:


> Part of me thinks that it IS made up!


I'd like to believe that it is fake and a troll as well but like I said, they are out there and they do walk among us. More than we'd care to believe.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

JustTheWife said:


> You undermine the point when you say that it's not necessarily conscious. So what would we mean by it not being conscious? If it's not conscious, there is no master plan for it. Simple.
> 
> It's natural for couples to focus more on each other and put their best foot forward in all aspects of life when "courting"...both men and women. Men may buy her more gifts, listen to her more, initiate romantic stuff, nice dinners, focus on her ahead of his friends, keep his drinking under better control, keep his nasty temper in check, never raising a hand to her until after marriage, keep his racist comments to himself, be nice and kind to her kids, show interest in her job, spend time winning over her parents and other family, etc, etc. Then it all can change after marriage. Nothing to see here. Nothing new here.
> 
> i don't think many people would argue that it's quite common for both men and women to try harder during the courting phase of a relationship. The whole point is whether it's conscious, planned, etc. I don't think any of it is a conscious game plan. I think it's just normal courting behavior --- in some it may be very little difference between courting and marriage but for others it can be very severe----- and not just related to women and sex.


I agree with this.
But...I sympathise with those who disagree.
Before first marriage, my then fiancee and I did housework together, we had regular sex both worked and planned for children.
After marriage, she rarely if ever physically helped with the housework (she did emotional labour, but that would be called lying if it were a man), sex stopped she did not take a job and announced she had always said she never wanted childre.


----------



## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I feel like I got played as for the three years it was almost sex everyday. OK at least every other day.


that IS a classic psychological condition.
either she tricked you into getting married, now that you are married, she does not have to try at all.

OR

Now she feels that being married, she needs to be put up on a pedestal (Madona/***** complex)

in either case, the response from you should be a psychological one too. something that changes the way she subconsciously thinks


----------



## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

JustTheWife said:


> Women (and men) may change after being together for a while but I really doubt that it's some master plan of trickery or "bait and switch". I see this idea of "being played" on this forum a lot but I don't really think it works that way.


maybe.
people DO just get bored. 
but just getting bored does not bode well for a long term marriage!


----------



## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

"bait and switch"
or simple animal instinct.
a squirrel might walk past a dog, and get zero response.
that same squirrel running past the same dog gets the chase of their lives.

Maybe it is the same with humans. One see getting another as "the hunt". when the thrill of the hunt is gone, and 40 years of marriage are all they see ahead, they lose interest, and stop trying? 

Are we ingrained to only hunt, and conquest our lovers. Why can some then be content with a long and sexually active marriage, while others seem to abhor it?


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Talker67 said:


> that IS a classic psychological condition.
> either she tricked you into getting married, now that you are married, she does not have to try at all.
> 
> OR
> ...


A lot of people have a belief, certainly in their youth, of being destined for greatness. If people are aware of it, they probably know it is silly, but it is still a feeling. I suspect, marriage triggers it in some cases and when it is unrealistic, it can breed resentment.


----------



## Donny69 (Sep 12, 2020)

I don’t remember talking about it much but I do recall lots of discussion about our attraction for each other. My wife had previously been in a long relationship with her high school/college boyfriend who she was never really attracted to. I think her smile, eyes, and the way she reacted when kissed- was all I needed to know. Twenty seven years and sex has never been a problem other than I never catch her as much as I’d like... kids and the pace of life just always are getting in the way!

I can’t imagine anyone could fake real attraction and desire for someone. I felt this from my wife the moment we met... my point is talk is cheap but you can really feel it when someone wants you!

Yeah, don’t marry your “friend”... it’s got to be “hotter” than that.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Donny69 said:


> I don’t remember talking about it much but I do recall lots of discussion about our attraction for each other. My wife had previously been in a long relationship with her high school/college boyfriend who she was never really attracted to. I think her smile, eyes, and the way she reacted when kissed- was all I needed to know. Twenty seven years and sex has never been a problem other than I never catch her as much as I’d like... kids and the pace of life just always are getting in the way!
> 
> I can’t imagine anyone could fake real attraction and desire for someone. I felt this from my wife the moment we met... my point is talk is cheap but you can really feel it when someone wants you!
> 
> Yeah, don’t marry your “friend”... it’s got to be “hotter” than that.


I do not think it is faked. I think people change according to their circumstances and for many the marital status is an important circumstance.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Talking about sex before marriage is good, but it doesn’t guarantee anything, things change and people change. 

The best you can do is compromise and tell her you would ideally like sex 2-3x a week and see what she says. Tell her how you feel when you don’t have sex with her frequently.


----------



## ah_sorandy (Jul 19, 2018)

Livvie said:


> You stayed for kids and financial reasons....If you are 65 years old your kids probably grew up and left the house ages ago. At that point it wasn't worth it to become a one income household as a single man to get out of this relationship in which you are frustrated and say was never real love??


I foolishly thought when the last of our kids left home when I was in my early 50s, that it was too late for me to start over. 

I accepted my situation at that time and stayed hoping that having an empty nest would be a reason for my wife to change. Sadly, nothing changed other than for her LD to become ND.!!!.

I should have left after our 3rd year of marriage when it became clear to me that my wife's focus was on anything and everthing other than having sex. I should have left when I turned 40 and was so unhappy. I should have left, but I didn't, and I now regret not seeking to find a woman that I would have been more compatible with sexually much earlier.

I believed my wife when she told me that all women were like her, and that I wouldn't find a woman that wanted sex as much as I wanted and needed it. Apparently, having sex twice a day, and 5 to 6 times on the weekend, was too much for any woman to accomodate.!!!. 😞


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> How many of you had a really in-depth discussion regarding sex before you said "I do"? I didn't.
> 
> Some of the guys I know cite my relatively low sex marriage as being my own fault for not discussing it in depth before getting married. The idea is why would you commit to someone before talking about the importance of sex and your expectations. Two guys are in couples where they have open marriages and said they had to determine their soon to be wife was open to that as well.
> 
> ...



Things change, a given, but the talk includes things like that.

It's a must have.


----------



## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

it may have been noted here, but some one once told me before i got married, "they have have been tigers in bed, they may have been the sex fanatics but the minute that ring goes on there is a chemical reaction that occurs and they lose all memory of who they were in bed."


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

JustTheWife said:


> Women (and men) may change after being together for a while but I really doubt that it's some master plan of trickery or "bait and switch". I see this idea of "being played" on this forum a lot but I don't really think it works that way.


Oh, I don't know. Maybe if we talk about something other than sex <g>. 

My wife any I played golf together pretty regularly before marriage. Post marriage, not once in 20+ years. Yes, I asked several times. No interest at all. Clearly part of the sales campaign.


----------



## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

anonmd said:


> Oh, I don't know. Maybe if we talk about something other than sex <g>.
> 
> My wife any I played golf together pretty regularly before marriage. Post marriage, not once in 20+ years. Yes, I asked several times. No interest at all. Clearly part of the sales campaign.


Interesting that its not just sex that can happen that way? Hmmmm?


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Interesting that its not just sex that can happen that way? Hmmmm?


Yep, of course I can play golf with any number of friends of either sex. Sex, not so much


----------



## Ella-Bee (Apr 18, 2020)

I've known and know several women (and a couple of men) that openly admit they got married for money. They don't always describe it that blatantly, but they'll use 'financial security', 'stability', 'house and lifestyle' and other euphemisms to say the same thing. They were all over their other half when they were dating, and very enthusiastic about marrying quickly. As soon as they had that ring, their career ground to a halt, sex decreased and eventually all but stopped, the romance and flirting dropped off a cliff behind closed doors, and they essentially now view their partner as a substitute parent.

For those who have not yet tied the knot, I would strongly advise you to study how the parents behave and how your SO reacts to them. If your girl's dad is the one that goes out to work and pays for everything and the mother is cold, distant, demanding towards him, then this is what your future wife will consider normal as a relationship structure. Unless she points out how unfair it is and is very opposed to it, in which case expect things to be the polar opposite as she rebels against how she grew up. But 99% of the time she will expect you to treat her like her father treated her mother and will expect you to be fine with her enacting her mother's role.

The same applies to the man you are dating ladies. If he was raised by a single mother who went out to work alongside running the home, then he likely won't be happy with a SAH wife who only does housework and isn't financially contributing too. He may argue otherwise, but I know too many guys like this who said they wanted a trophy wife, got the trophy wife, now can't stand having to be the sole breadwinner and have zero respect for her.

People quickly revert to what they consider the 'norm', especially in times of stress (which life has a lot of). Make sure you do your research and find out what they really value in a partner. Not just by asking (because people can say anything they like to get you to marry them), but learn how they view the relationship model their parents gave them. If that doesn't match your own expectations (which doesn't make either of you right/wrong, just incompatible) then don't waste your time and money on a wedding. Or simply continue dating so both of you remain pressured to behave a certain way indefinitely.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ah_sorandy said:


> I foolishly thought when the last of our kids left home when I was in my early 50s, that it was too late for me to start over.
> 
> I accepted my situation at that time and stayed hoping that having an empty nest would be a reason for my wife to change. Sadly, nothing changed other than for her LD to become ND.!!!.
> 
> ...


In a way she is correct in that very few if in fact any women would be up for multiple times a day indefinitely.

That’s why men really need to soul-search and determine in committing themselves to sexual exclusivity with one person for life is really in their best interests or not.

And if that one person no longer wants to have sex with you at all, then you really need to seriously reconsider the exclusivity aspect and whether it it in one’s best interests to remain in the relationship and whether to remain involuntarily celibate in that relationship.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Going on 7 years (second marriage after first long term one) and well beyond the "kids" ages. They are all in their 30s now. When dating sex was everyday now its once a week or more (ten days).


Your original question is perhaps a moot point. When relationships begin there is NRE (new relationship energy) which is also known as the honeymoon phase. If the topic of sex were to be discussed during this time, the hormones involved in NRE would likely skew the results in favor or more sex more often. 

Sometimes relationships after a 1st marriage or just ending a long term relationship are about "rebounding." And that is about finding someone to help end the pain of loneliness and heartbreak. The euphoria experienced there is more about relief from pain than it is about genuine sustainable desire. So even after ending a relationship and knowing what you want, asking this question again may not be obvious or straightforward if one is experiencing a rebound. 

Also just because someone is HD in one relationship does not mean they will remain HD in the next relationship. Sometimes people experience a role reversal when moving from one relationship to another. An HD may discover he is not really that HD at all and struggles to keep up with a partner that is very needy and difficult to please sexually.

I would advise you to look into the future and stop questioning "what ifs" about the past that may have prevented your current issues. 

If you have a lot of desire to be with your wife, don't apologize for it. Odds are she may be struggling with low self esteem that comes with getting older and everything that goes along with it. Find a way to use your desire to make her feel desirable and positive about herself. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

There were a couple times when we discussed sex though I don't think it was terribly in depth and there were few if any explicit agreements about it. 

At one point my ex said something to the effect that she might have trouble with the concept of sex after having a child because she would think of herself more as a mother and less of a wife / lover. It confused me a great deals since we only knew one or two only children (among our peers) so our mothers were still having sex and having a child didn't stop them. At that point she got kind of freaked out that her parents might actually have sex (they didn't at that point but that was their problem) which she had never really considered. It was still years before we had children from that conversation and having sex was mostly just limited by soreness / stitches and not perspective by that point.

At another point there was some discussion of masturbation. I don't remember exactly how it came up but she was bothered that I did masturbate sometimes. I basically promised that I would probably never turn down any activity she proposed but if she wasn't willing or able to participate in any sexual activities, I was probably going to take care of it myself. I had had an orgasm at least once a day since 5th grade and would like to share an experience with her each time but her participation wasn't strictly required. At that point I think it helped prevent the experience from being too short though I don't think that was brought up.


----------



## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> Oh it is absolutely a thing.
> 
> For some it may not necessarily be a conscious game plan and simply drop the act and revert to their disordered self once married, but some people absolutely do change on a dime once the marriage certificate is signed.


like they do the dishes before the wedding, but not after?


----------



## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> We did for three years but maybe that wasn't enough???


We lived together for four, nearly five years, most of it while engaged to be married.

The key I missed is one needs to do it with eyes wide open, wisdom to know what things probably will get better and what things are likely to get worse, and have the courage to pull the plug if that’s what is indicated.

In my case, I was too naive and inexperienced, too confident and stubbornly logical about our “good match”, too needy and too lonely, to choose a different path at the time.

So, as much as discussions with one’s partner early on can provide actionable information, someone like me would have benefitted even more by having conversations with an impartial and wise expert on life, people, and the way things change and do not.

Had I had, say, the right therapist or mentor in my life, I might have made different decisions at key points. I had a lot to learn.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

WandaJ said:


> like they do the dishes before the wedding, but not after?


I actually do the lion’s share of the dishes and have to supervise and manage how everyone else loads the dishwasher. If I don’t keep my eye them every time, they will neglect to pre-rinse 😮 

I do a ton more dishes after marriage than before because before I married it was all paper plates lol 😂


----------



## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> I actually do the lion’s share of the dishes and have to supervise and manage how everyone else loads the dishwasher. If I don’t keep my eye them every time, they will neglect to pre-rinse 😮
> 
> I do a ton more dishes after marriage than before because before I married it was all paper plates lol 😂


I am not talking about you. You guys say that women do bait and switch with sex. I think the same can be said for many guys doing house chores.

it is simply because that’s how humans are. New relationship we all try to be at our best, but with time most will slip back into what’s normal for them.


----------



## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

It's weird that a lot of people seem to have very different ideas about how you should act as a boyfriend or girlfriend versus husband or wife. I mean the relationship is good or you wouldn't want to get married but then you decide to change your behaviors and expectations after you declare that you'll always be together. 

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> How many of you had a really in-depth discussion regarding sex before you said "I do"? I didn't.
> 
> Some of the guys I know cite my relatively low sex marriage as being my own fault for not discussing it in depth before getting married. The idea is why would you commit to someone before talking about the importance of sex and your expectations. Two guys are in couples where they have open marriages and said they had to determine their soon to be wife was open to that as well.
> 
> ...


My husband and I never discussed it before marriage, at all. But to my understanding, celebrities make sure that it's a clause in their prenuptial agreements...how much sex, etc etc.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

I never had a "sex discussion" with my wife before we got married about sexual expectations for our marriage.

For starters I had been married before and a lack of sex wasn't ever an issue. Since my ex-wife and I always shared an enormous amount of frequent and varied sex. From around 2 hours of meeting each other, through to a little while into our separation pending divorce.

Plus my wife and I had also shared an enormous amount of frequent and varied sex as well, from our third date through living together before we were married. Plus my other sexual relationships were a smorgasbord of lots of sex as well, so I didn't even imagine, that a lack of sex would ever be a thing in a marital relationship.

That said I don't see how having a "sex discussion" about expectations would afford any guarantees moving forward. Since people change, so I think holding them to such expectations is a fools errand. If people can get divorced, then presuming someone will hold a sex promise seems foolish to me.

The presumption I have had with all of my sexual partners, is that if I choose not to share plenty of sex with them, I forfeit any obligation for sexual fidelity from them.

At the end of the day, I don't know what the future holds. So I enjoy what I have now, while accepting that things may change for the better or worse going forward. If my sexual relationship with my wife devolves, then I will embark on new sexual adventures with others and consider myself fortunate for what we did get to share together.

Yet even without any sexual expectations being expressed before marriage. I find my sexual relationship with my wife continues to grow and evolve positively. In our early days we had a splendidly rich sex life together. Yet marriage has seen us do much more. Since to settle for what we had or less is to bring boredom to our sexual experience, which would rob us of some of our desire for it. So even after being together for over 24 years, we keep weaving in new practices into the rich tapestry of our sex life. Which renews and refreshes, our shared sexual experience, which helps to keep us connected sexually, through the sharing of many pleasures.

If one wants to share a tremendously rich sex life, they need to bring a rich sex life and not be shy about it. And if bringing that isn't reciprocated, the best path to sexual renewal is in letting the other person go.


----------



## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Personal said:


> I never had a "sex discussion" with my wife before we got married about sexual expectations for our marriage.
> 
> For starters I had been married before and a lack of sex wasn't ever an issue. Since my ex-wife and I always shared an enormous amount of frequent and varied sex. From around 2 hours of meeting each other, through to a little while into our separation pending divorce.
> 
> ...


I wish it were all that easy and I would just leave but getting divorced is a bit pricey when you are the guy.


----------



## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Hiner112 said:


> It's weird that a lot of people seem to have very different ideas about how you should act as a boyfriend or girlfriend versus husband or wife. I mean the relationship is good or you wouldn't want to get married but then you decide to change your behaviors and expectations after you declare that you'll always be together.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


I do not think people decide that. They just reverse to whatever they were before


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I wish it were all that easy and I would just leave but getting divorced is a bit pricey when you are the guy.


Easy is what you are doing, which isn't much at all.

I've been divorced, I am not afraid.


----------



## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Personal said:


> Easy is what you are doing, which isn't much at all.
> 
> I've been divorced, I am not afraid.


I've been divorced once too and still recovering financially from it. Can't afford it again at least not now. Easy to talk when you are not in my shoes.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I've been divorced once too and still recovering financially from it. Can't afford it again at least not now. Easy to talk when you are not in my shoes.


Divorce impacted me financially as well and I lost all sorts of things and was poorer for it, plus (not unreasonably) I also paid child support through the first ten years of my second (current marriage) as well.

Yet one thing for sure if I'm not getting the sex I want, I certainly won't complain about it to no end while not fixing that problem with my sexual partner or playing with others.


----------



## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

anonmd said:


> Oh, I don't know. Maybe if we talk about something other than sex <g>.
> 
> My wife any I played golf together pretty regularly before marriage. Post marriage, not once in 20+ years. Yes, I asked several times. No interest at all. Clearly part of the sales campaign.


No surprise there. Both sexes usually put their best feet forward when dating and bend more to create a feeling of similar interests, etc. Early in relationships, it's also often the case that just spending time together is exciting and great, no matter what you're doing.

She might be interested in your sports teams and going to the games before marriage and not so much after some years together. He might be interested in her hobbies or job prior to marriage and care much less after.

Sadly this is all to common and not part of a devious "bait and switch" as some are making it out to be.


----------



## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Ugh.
> 
> You actually think a woman in her 60's would want to have sex with you every day? LOL.
> 
> ...


@She'sStillGotIt didn’t say otherwise, but I think it’s important to note ASKing or NOT ASKing for one’s libido is just one fact of many to be understood and weighed.

(Worth reiterating: Not wanting to attach more meaning to @She'sStillGotIt statement here than she meant, or to address it per se. But it triggered a thought, and I was lost in it for a bit, and wanted to share where I eventually ended up.)


Situations are complex, and navigating out of them or trying to sanely and optimally exist within them can be soul-sucking.

I think there are many instances of mismatched desire where neither partner is at fault for his or her differing desire level. Even when that level is “not normal” by some standard.

Even when we are significantly at fault for something, is that really a surprise? After all, we are humans. Doing our best can still lead to conflict and imbalances and hurt. We often do less than our best, and would be foolish to expect only perfection from the partner we commit to.

Empathy and respect for the other’s needs is important. But it can be *harmfully confusing* too. Changes that involuntarily visit the other don’t exist in a vacuum.

What’s most relevant is how each handles the uninvited (or invited) challenges to sustaining a loving, life-enhancing connection.

No doubt my wife has been effected by a change in hormones. I believe her when she says she has no desire to have sex with me, or any man, ever again. And, I don’t think for a minute she chose to feel this way.

But, there is way more to it. She has turned away and withdrawn from me, in many ways. Instead of engaging with me to healthily find a mutually workable way we can both feel loved, she has embraced avoidance as a lifestyle, and drowned her anxieties in harmful alcohol use. Years ago, she sought to get her emotional needs met elsewhere. And, she actively avoided healthy resolution of that. Years ago, while angry, she said in front of the kids we would stay married until they were done with high school and then try to solve our problems or divorce then.

I can’t imagine having sex every day, but surely I would like to (with a loving partner). I can’t remember what sex once a week or once a month felt like when I thought she wanted it too.

Everyday, I know what the absence of any touch feels like.

I can’t forget what it feels like when going for a kiss results in a head turn away. Or having the partner for life slide away when I sit close to her on the couch.



At this point, I can see connections of these behaviors to uninvited hormonal changes, as well as in-born or at least long ago established propensity towards anxiety. I can also see ways in which I have decreased her attraction towards me.

Lots of ways to understand the problems. Lots of ways to deconstruct and let go of culpability.

But, time marches on. I live only once. She is mostly indifferent to my needs. I have value to her, and meet some of her emotional needs. But, reciprocity seems low on her list of things she cares about. I sleep alone, and so does she, and she prefers it.

She didn’t ask for zero sexual desire, towards me or men in general. She doesn’t seem to want divorce currently. But, she clearly doesn’t want to fix anything, if that means having a romantic relationship — even if when asked she chooses to avoid directly saying that.

And yet, when I hear in a different context for a different “she” that “She didn’t ASK for it”, I feel guilt and paralysis. Something I need to be careful about.


----------



## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

PieceOfSky said:


> @She'sStillGotIt didn’t say otherwise, but I think it’s important to note ASKing or NOT ASKing for one’s libido is just one fact of many to be understood and weighed.
> 
> (Worth reiterating: Not wanting to attach more meaning to @She'sStillGotIt statement here than she meant, or to take it out of context. But it triggered a thought, and I was lost in it for a bit, and wanted to share where I eventually ended up.)
> 
> ...


Yes, you can have low libido and not want sex but still care for your partner. 
why are staying in this marriage? It doesn’t look like it reparable. She doesn’t want you, she doesn’t like you. You are drowning. How old are kids?


----------



## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> Yes, you can have low libido and not want sex but still care for your partner.
> why are staying in this marriage? It doesn’t look like it reparable. She doesn’t want you, she doesn’t like you. You are drowning. How old are kids?


Thanks for asking.

Not intending to stay. Have made clear to her I intend to divorce. Youngest is in final year of high school. Haven’t told the kids yet.

My intent is to be gone by sometime next Fall, if not sooner.


Reasons for staying have varied through the years. Most recently, it has been less about fear and indecision than it has been that I treasure the little time I have left in the nest with my youngest. Plus getting some of the finances and logistics worked out.

Maybe it’s my ego talking, but I wouldn’t say “she doesn’t like [me]” is the whole truth. I think she still likes, even loves, me. But she doesn’t love me “in that way.” I’m in the friend zone, and can be a valuable and useful friend, but that is all.

Despite my intent to leave, every once in awhile conviction dips a bit when I consider that’s its reasonable for some things to change due to biology and aging. I suppose the relevance to this thread is that despite talks and experiences before marriage, people and bodies change over decades. Sometimes, there is nothing that can be done to predict or redirect that. So, you’re still left with a problem to be resolved. And resolving it “justly” may involve weighing reasonably expected and unasked-for challenges against things we have more choice over.

OP, sorry for the thread jack.


----------



## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

PieceOfSky said:


> Thanks for asking.
> 
> Not intending to stay. Have made clear to her I intend to divorce. Youngest is in final year of high school. Haven’t told the kids yet.
> 
> ...


We all change, that’s normal. Question is if we are changing together or growing apart?


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Hiner112 said:


> It's weird that a lot of people seem to have very different ideas about how you should act as a boyfriend or girlfriend versus husband or wife. I mean the relationship is good or you wouldn't want to get married but then you decide to change your behaviors and expectations after you declare that you'll always be together.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


I suggest some of David Schnarch's books, the Crucible and Intimacy & Desire for example. Not only do you have to negotiate new roles after you marry (all these legal things like finances, buying automobiles, insurance, etc.) things change. If you buy a house you have monthly mortgage payments to make and need to take jobs and careers seriously. When you realize you need to save for retirement and kids college, that also puts a big strain on things and changes you. Then if you have children they really really change a lot. Who I was BC (before children) is a lot different me than who I was after. At each stage of life there are huge changes that can pull a couple apart or grow them as a unit. Either way it will be a challenge and you will need to work at it.

Good Luck.


----------



## TOMTEFAR (Feb 23, 2013)

I would never marry someone i haven't explored our sexual compayability with beforehand. 

Talking about it is not enough. If you are virgins you have no idea at all what you like or frequency. 

I'm not telling people to have sex with everyone or double digit + numbers but i think it in many cases is very very important that you know what you want and likewize your partner and you can only know that by experience.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> I want to take a moment to direct your attention to the new members forum and check out the thread about the gal considering marrying some guy that she literally describes as repulsive and that makes her skin crawl for financial security.
> 
> You can't make this stuff up :-O


Yes and he already knows she isn't into him. He knows if he gets her it's because she needs him financially. She only had sex with him once a long time ago and she hasn't agreed to properly date him since then so he knows exactly what he's getting into. He's an idiot if he keeps offering her all this security and easy living because there is no guarantee he's going to get anything in return because she is repulsed by him. He knows it.


----------

