# Mental health... sometimes I feel like I'm going crazy



## IAMCIV (Nov 8, 2011)

How do i start this.... first let me say that I love my wife. It's just that I feel like her refusal to take care of herself mentally is too much. 

My wife is an amazing person, smart, funny, beautiful and more than I ever asked for however, she has issues. She is afraid of illnesses like cancer or other terminal diseases. We've been married for 12 years and for over 10 of those years at least once every two months or sometimes as often as once a week, she will come up with a new illness that she believes she has. And it's not that she thinks she has them, she believes she has them and all the symptoms too. lumps or pains here or whatever it may be any particular time. I try to talk to her and show her how unreasonable she's being but it never fails, she literally has to go to the dr and get tested, exrayed, cat scanned, or whatever to believe she's not sick. And to top it off sometimes we will leave the dr office and she will still think there's something they missed. 

She's was visiting a dr. regualrly to go over any possible symptoms she might be worried about and the dr. prescribed anti anxiety pills that didn't do much of anything at all, so she was taken off of them. Also she was reffered to a psychiatrist but after one visit she felt that they were point less. That she knew exactly what the dr was going to say so what was the point. She is very smart and can be like arguing with a lawyer most times. not fun. 

She doesn't see anything wrong at all with her behavior and no two issues are related, just because she wasn't sick all the other times, doesn't mean she isn't sick now. This is really hard on me as I see the woman I love crying and worried all the time and unless she goes to the dr. she can't be helped. Oh and she doesn't like going to the dr. she'll put off going because she says she's scared of finding out she's sick and would rather just die, than find out when she'll die. Many times I have to drag her there while she's crying and all that. it's not fun. I just see a beautiful wonderful healthy woman who can't enjoy the health she has. I tell her it's a slap in the face to all those who are really sick. That they'd trade places of health in an instant. 

One thing the psyc said is that she is afraid of loosing her family and it manifest in these ways. I am thankful that she loves her family so much but at the same time these behaviors are driving me crazy. I feel cold inside like there's no hope of her ever stopping this behavior and will I have to live like this forever?

I love her and I can't imagine my life without her but what the heck am I supposed to do? I told her the other night that I am loosing hope that she'll ever stop thinking she's sick. It saddens me. I don't want to live like this anymore.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

You should get her to another phsychiatrist who will do more to figure out meds, etc for her. She obviously has a real issue. 

Have you done much searching on the internet to research this type of behavior.

treatment of hypocondia

For a while go with her to her appointments to make sure she goes through with it.


----------



## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

have her get a full body scan...or something to put her mind at ease.

I don't have cancer, but I have a HUGE tumor that needs to be removed, I'd gladly give it to her so she has something to complain about.


----------



## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Find her a therapist who specializes in cognitive behaviour therapy. Sometimes a website will list it in the shrink's details under 'orientation'. Or call and ask. And buy her a couple of books on NLP. I like the ones by Paul McKenna. Richard Bandler's latest one looks good, too.


----------



## rokia82 (Feb 2, 2012)

This is my first time posting, so please forgive me if I give the wrong advice. I am not a therapist, just a college student with kids and a hubby. In my opinion, I think it is a way for her to get attention. There are all types of different methods of grasping for someone's attention. Sometimes they are not even aware of what they are doing. If she is truly stressed, perhaps she should try yoga or get into exercise with a class. Whenever, my anxiety builds up, sometimes doing a physical activity like pilate helps me feel better afterwards.

Here is an artical I found that may help. 
Ways to Deal with Someone that is Always Complaining - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com


----------



## IAMCIV (Nov 8, 2011)

Hmmm.. Thanks for the replies. I've tried getting her to see another dr to no avail. She doesn't think she has a problem. She just sees herself as a normal person responding in a sane manner to whatever symptoms she thinks she is experiencing. 

So since she won't go, or how do I get her to go? I've tried everything, even saying if you don't go I'm leaving. She called my bluff. I just don't want to live like this anymore. 

I've thought about the attention aspect. I really don't think it's that. We've actually talked about that. She was raised in a very religous home and grew up terrified that god would put her through Job like tourments. So I think that plays a huge factor.

However, she thinks she's sick, I tell her she's not. She keeps going, yes I am yes I am, I say no. Then she starts saying stuff like I don't care about her, I could care less if she dies, why are we even married. 

Oh and if you've read my other post about her being sure of the fact that I will one day look at porn again, therefore ending our marriage, she starts saying stuff like worrying about this illness and knowing you will look at porn again one day is too much, we need to get a divorce. So those things combine for a real fun night of conversation.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

IAMCIV, the behaviors you describe -- fear of abandonment, victim mentality, emotional instability, and black-white thinking -- are classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW has. Moreover, having imaginary illnesses is not uncommon among folks having such traits at a strong level.

Whether those traits are so severe as to satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having full-blown BPD is a determination that only a professional can make. This does not imply, however, that you cannot spot the red flags, i.e., strong occurrences of such traits. There is nothing subtle about traits such as emotional instability, inability to trust, and black-white thinking. Hence, given your 12 year history with her, it should be easy for you to spot the red flags for such traits. I therefore suggest that you read more about them.


IAMCIV said:


> One thing the psyc said is that she is afraid of loosing her family and it manifest in these ways.


The primary hallmark of a BPDer (i.e., a person with strong BPD traits) is a strong, irrational fear of abandonment. This is why the #2 best selling BPD book is called _I Hate You, Don't Leave Me._


> _She just text me, she doesn't think things will work out. She had a dream that we got divorced and she doesn't see a point in going forward.... _(Your 1/19 post.)


What you are describing is the endless cycle of push-you-away and pull-you-back that is so characteristic of BPDers. There are several reasons for this behavior. One is that the BPDer has two strong fears: engulfment and abandonment. Because she has a fragile, unstable sense of who she is, she hates to be alone. She wants a strong personality around her who will help "center her" and give her focus. 

Yet, as you draw close to her, she will feel engulfed by your strong personality, as though she is losing herself and evaporating into thin air. She also will experience it as being suffocated and controlled by you. She therefore will push you away, usually by creating an argument over nothing. This, incidentally, is why your worst arguments with a BPDer usually will happen immediately after your most intimate evenings or best weekends together.

As you draw back to give her breathing space, however, you will eventually trigger her fear of abandonment within weeks, if not days. Then she will start pulling you back by being extra sweet and giving you great make up sex. Significantly, this unending flipping from adoration to devaluation is very confusing and addictive, because you are always thinking you can restore the ecstasy if you can only figure out what you are doing wrong.

Another reason for his alternating between adoration and devaluation is her splitting, i.e., her tendency to only be in touch with one set of feelings at a time. BPDers cannot tolerate having strong mixed feelings for very long. The result is that, when she is loving you, she is totally out of touch with the bad feelings and doubts she has about you. Likewise, when she is not loving you, she is totally out of touch with her loving feelings. 

This "black-white thinking" leads to her classifying everyone as "all good" or "all bad," a process also called "all-or-nothing" thinking that results from splitting. It creates a black-white view of people that, not surprisingly, destroys her ability to maintain LTRs with folks. Moreover, based on an innocent comment or action, a BPDer will reclassify people from one polar extreme to the other -- and she can do it in just seconds based solely on a glance you made or a tone of voice she thought was disrespectful.


> At least once every two months or sometimes as often as once a week, she will come up with a new illness that she believes she has.


Due to the fear of abandonment, it is common for BPDers to portray themselves as vulnerable, needy victims of a disease -- to prevent you from walking out on the "sick loved one." Moreover, because that fiction is usually created subconsciously, the BPDers typically are consciously convinced it is true. 

Like a young child, a BPDer does not have the skill of intellectually challenging her intense feelings. Instead, she accepts them as truth. That is, she is convinced anything that is felt that strongly MUST be true. You therefore cannot reach her with reasoning and calm conversations.

My BPDer exW, for example, was convinced she had fibromyalgia. Likewise, her two sisters (both of which have strong BPD traits) also were convinced that they had it too. And, in the case of fibromyalgia, they all may actually have had it because it is a common ailment among BPDers.


> Also she was referred to a psychiatrist but after one visit she felt that they were pointless.


If your W is a BPDer, it likely won't matter if she goes to therapy or not. Although there are excellent treatment programs all over the country, BPDers are loath to let go of the false self image that they are victims, always victims. Having a weak, fragile ego, that false self image of being "the victim" is often the only shred of a self image she has to hold on to. 

Yet, to improve and heal, it is essential for a BPDer to step forward and start taking responsibility for her own actions. Absent that, substantial improvement is impossible. This is why therapist Shari Schreiber says you have a better chance flying to the moon strapped to a banana than ever seeing a BPDer stay in therapy long enough to make a real difference. I would be surprised if 1 in 100 BPDers have the self awareness and ego strength to accomplish that. 

Over the past five years, I've communicated with nearly a hundred self-aware BPDers online but they are so rare that I've never knowingly met one in my private life. Moreover, even when you get a BPDer to stay in therapy by insisting on it, she likely will just play mind games with the therapist. 

That is what my exW did for 15 years of weekly visits to six different psychologists -- at enormous expense to me. She only got worse, eventually having me arrested and thrown into jail on a bogus charge of "brutalizing" her. Such false arrests are very common when men are married to BPDer wives.


> She is very smart and can be like arguing with a lawyer most times. not fun.


Most BPDers I've met are well above average in intelligence. Even so, they will come up with the most circular and illogical arguments you will ever hear. The problem is not a lack of intelligence. 

Rather, the problem is that they turn that intelligence off whenever one of their two great fears (abandonment and engulfment) is triggered. Specifically, they split off that logical, adult part of their minds from the conscious part of their minds. This leaves you having to speak to the intuitive, emotional child part when you are trying to have a discussion of any sensitive matter.


> She doesn't like going to the dr. she'll put off going because she says she's scared of finding out she's sick....


No, she's scared of being told that she is _not_ sick. If she is a BPDer, what she really wants is validation of her false self image of being "the victim." Moreover, she wants to use the constant threat that she is needy and sick to prevent you from abandoning her.


> She needs constant reassurance. Even to the point of saying I don't find her attractive or love her anymore if we go more than three days with out sex.


If she is a BPDer, she is incapable of trusting you for any extended period. Simply incapable. Moreover, her emotional development is so stunted (at about age 3 or 4) that she never developed a perception of "object constancy," -- i.e., she is unable to see that you and other people have personalities and values that are essentially unchanged from week to week.

On top of that, she has such a fragile sense of whom she really is that she keeps a death grip on her false self image of being "the victim." For a BPDer to be willing to live with you, you MUST play one of two roles -- both of which are designed to "validate" that false self image of being a victim. 

If your W is a BPDer, you played the first role -- being "the savior" -- during the infatuation period. As savior, you were validating her status as "the victim" because anyone in need of being saved must be a victim. 

Yet, as soon as the infatuation evaporates, the only role that will validate that false self image is for you to become "the predator," i.e., the cause of every misfortune to befall her. You therefore will be blamed for everything that goes wrong, e.g., every disease you don't take seriously and every time she imagines that she catches you "cheating on her" by looking at another woman. 

With a BPDer, the irony is that, the more you do to prove your love, the more insistent she will become that you do not. The problem is that a BPDer is unable to love herself or trust herself. Until she develops those skills, she will remain incapable of trusting you.

Moreover, it gets worse as the years go by. The BPDer becomes increasingly resentful about your failure to make her happy or fix her. This is why BPDers typically walk out on caregivers like us after about 12-15 years. In my case, it took 15 years, at which point my exW abandoned me. By "abandoned me," I mean she had me arrested so she could get a restraining order keeping me out of my own home for the 18 months it takes to get a divorce in this state.


> These behaviors are driving me crazy.


"Crazy" is exactly how you should be feeling if you've been living with a BPDer for 12 years. Therapists see far more partners and spouses of BPDers coming into therapy than they ever do of the BPDers themselves. If you were living with a narcissist or sociopath, you would be just as miserable as living with a BPDer. But you would not feel like you're losing your mind. 

Of the ten personality disorders (PDs), BPD is the ONLY ONE with the reputation of making many of the partners feel like they are going crazy. The reason is that BPDers are so unstable that they alternate every few weeks from adoring you to devaluing you -- or from wanting to make passionate love one minute and wanting to divorce you the next. This induces a feeling of craziness in many partners because they spend years trying to figure out what they are doing wrong (not realizing that the BPDer is emotionally unstable).


> I feel cold inside like there's no hope of her ever stopping this behavior and will I have to live like this forever? ... I don't want to live like this anymore.


If your W actually suffers from strong BPD traits, there is absolutely nothing you or a team of psychologists can do to fix it. She must want very badly to fix herself and, to get very far, she likely will need professional guidance for years. 

Sadly, the nature of the disorder is such that it is very unlikely she will have the self awareness and ego strength needed to accomplish that. I therefore encourage you to see a clinical psychologist -- on your own for a visit or two -- to obtain a candid professional opinion. If she has strong BPD traits, it is highly unlikely that her own psychologist will tell her, much less tell you.

While you are waiting for an appointment, I suggest you read more about the BPD traits to see if most of them accurately describe her behavior. The two books mentioned above are excellent places to start. I caution that, although most BPDers direct their anger outward in temper tantrums and verbal abuse, a portion of them direct it inward -- punishing and controlling you not by being verbally abusive but, rather, by becoming cold and withholding of all affection. They use passive aggression. 

I mention this because nearly all descriptions of BPD you will find online describe only the outwardly hostile, abusive form -- which is inconsistent with your description of your W's behavior. Hence, if your W has strong BPD traits, she would be called a "waif" BPDer (aka, "quiet" BPDers).

Moreover, most people having a PD at the diagnostic level actually have two or three PDs, not just one. This is because psychologists created too many PDs, a mistake they are correcting in the DSM-5 which should be released in 2013. The current draft combines many PDs, reducing them from 10 PDs to only six, one of which is BPD. I mention this because the behaviors you describe sound like they may partially overlap with Avoidant PD, which also is being retained in the new diagnostic manual. 

I therefore would suggest that, if what I've said about BPD does not sound familiar, you read about Avoidant PD. To me, your description so far sounds more like the traits of a "quiet borderline" (aka, "waif borderline"), whose anger is more inner directed. One important difference between the two is that, whereas a quiet BPDer is emotionally unstable, an Avoidant is stable. 

The best article I've seen about waif BPDers is therapist Shari Schreiber's description at BORDERLINE WAIFS AND UNSUNG HEROES; Rescuing The Woman Who Doesn't Want To Be Saved.. Another article (which emphasizes the cold nature of some quiet BPDers) is Mahari's article at Borderline Personality - The Quiet Acting In Borderline and The Silent Treatment - Nons - Borderline Personality Disorder Inside Out. Of those two, I believe Schreiber's description is closer to what you've said about your W's behavior.

Here on the TAM forum, you can read my description of BPD traits in Maybe's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If that discussion of BPD traits rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss them with you and point you to good online resources. Take care, IAMCIV.


----------



## DreamTee (Feb 26, 2012)

Hello, do you wholly believe she is not sick? Does she say things that lead you to believe she doesn't feel right most of the time? I just ask because for years I simply felt like crap, off and on, lots of vague symptoms. I went from dr to dr, most saying I was fine. I ended up taking anti-depressants which did nothing for me. I stopped trying to figure it out because I was getting embarrassed and thought maybe I WAS making it all up! 

Fast forward many years and in the past few years I have found out I have Celiac Disease, thyroid problems, silent migraines and severe allergies. When each one was uncovered I felt a little better but it's not until I have dealt with them all that I'm feeling normal! I didn't know what normal people felt like.

I could be way off and maybe this is not what's happening with your wife. I just felt the way you described your wife. Not knowing what's wrong with you can make you crazy and make you think you have everything! You have to be your own detective. 

I just wanted to add a different perspective to this thread.


----------



## Emly (Feb 22, 2012)

The discussion over here is very useful and helpful.I have got a lot of info from here!


----------



## IAMCIV (Nov 8, 2011)

Uptown, your post was so spot on accurate I started to cry. I don't exactly know why, but it was like you knew. My heart is pounding and my head is still spinning. She draws me close and pushes me away. Makes pasionate love to me, and then hates me and wants a divorce. Sometimes only minutes after. Many times after a nice dinner, night out, whatever, I start thinking, ok, when is it going to happen? What's next. 

I'm not going to diagnose her myself and say, yes this is what she has. I'm not a trained psycologist. However, I will say you described her behaviors to a tee. To a tee. 

My head is spinning too much to reply in any sensable form, but thank you so much for that reply. It made me feel like I'm not alone and I'm not crazy, potentially anyway. 

It's funny because in the last 12 years I've never worried about her really leaving me, like I knew we'd make it. However lately, I've been feeling like I'm all used up. I don't know how to describe it but I've had this weird feeling of being used up in her eyers. Maybe its a weird permenition? I don't know. Maybe just depression...

Either way thank you for your reply. I will try to reply to specific things you posted but right now I have to get my head straight.


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

If it's BPD then you you will have a lot of difficulty getting her treated as most BPD are extremely resistant to getting help


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

IAMCIV, thank you for the kind words. Being a caregiver like you, I am very pleased to hear that you found the information helpful.


IAMCIV said:


> I'm not going to diagnose her myself and say, yes this is what she has. I'm not a trained psychologist.


True. Only a professional can determine whether your W "has BPD," i.e., has the full-blown disorder. You can truthfully say, however, that she "has BPD traits." Everybody on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD traits. Splitting, for example, is something you do many times every day -- every time you daydream or are suddenly startled.

Further, it also is okay for you to say she "has strong BPD traits" if that is what you are seeing. Significantly, there is nothing subtle or nuanced about traits such as icy silence, flipping from adoration to hatred, and inability to trust. After living with a woman for 12 years, you would have to be deaf, dumb, blind, and stupid not to spot strong occurrences of such traits.

Before you graduated high school, IAMCIV, you already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD. You could identify the class drama queen -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD. You could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And you could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. 

Similarly, you are able to spot strong BPD traits when they occur. This is why it is okay to say she "has strong BPD traits" if that is what you have been seeing for years. Do not tell her that, however. If she is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project your accusation right back onto you. And, because the projection will be done subconsciously, she likely will firmly believe it. 

This means that she will be convinced that YOU are the one having strong BPD traits. The conventional wisdom, then, is to simply advise a high functioning BPDer to see a clinical psychologist. In the unlikely event that she does seek therapy, it is very unlikely that the psych will tell her the name of her disorder (for many reasons I've explained in other threads).


> Thank you so much for that reply. It made me feel like I'm not alone....


You are far far from being alone. A recent large-scale study showed that 6% of the population has a lifetime incidence of BPD at the diagnostic level. If you add to that the percent of folks having strong BPD traits (but below the diagnostic level), you may get a figure exceeding 8% of the population -- i.e., at least as common as left-handedness. 

And, because those BPDers tend to leave a trail of numerous hurt lovers in their wake, the share of folks in your shoes may be double or triple the 8%. You will find thousands of those "Nons" (i.e., the nonBPD partners and ex-partners) at BPDfamily.com. It is the largest BPD forum that is targeted only to Nons like you and me.

I strongly suggest that, after you have time to follow the links I provided above, you join (or at least lurk) at that website forum. But please don't forget about those of us here at TAM. We want to continue sharing our experiences with you as long as you find the information helpful. And, by sharing your own experiences here in this thread, you likely are helping numerous members and lurkers.


----------



## IAMCIV (Nov 8, 2011)

DreamTee said:


> Hello, do you wholly believe she is not sick? Does she say things that lead you to believe she doesn't feel right most of the time?


Thank you for the question, but I KNOW with all certainty that she is not sick. I tell her that she likes to think she is sick or dying, it always makes her mad. But as uptown posted and as I've told her a thousand times, literally, she doesn't want to go to a dr. and hear she's ok. She draws things out, when I get serious or too fed up to deal with things, she says ok, we'll go to the dr. Then she gets blood tested, x-rayed or cat scanned or whatever and everything always comes back the same. There is nothing wrong with her. I told her she's addictied to thinkiing she's sick. Then she gets mad at me for "not caring if she dies" and lets get dicvorced since it won't matter to me weither or not she lives or dies. It's like when she thinks she's sick she wants all the pampering and pity, and when I don't give it to her because I know she isn't sick, I'm the bad guy. 

I've tried talking to her but she's so emotional, she jumps from emotion to emotion. If I try to bring something up, like the fact that she needs help, it turns into a you don't love me, so just leave thing. So instead of making progress in our relationship, it ends up being about just staying together. 

I always tell her that she says she wants a divorece just to hear me tell her I don't. It makes her feel better. But what about me? How many times can you be told your spouse wants a divorce just because they know it will end anyway?


----------



## IAMCIV (Nov 8, 2011)

Uptown, thanks again for the links, I'm reading up on BPD right now. Ihave a question though...

So times in our married lives she would say thing that were the complete opposite of what she told me sometimes hours or days before. It was like her "black and white" filter was off...is this a behavior of BPD?

An example, once a couple of mutual friends were getting married. The bride to be called off the wedding and to the groom to be that she didn't trust him when it came to woman. I was talking to the groom trying to lift his spirits and my wife was talking to the once bride to be. After she was done talking with her she joined our conversation in which she stated something to the effect that "women just have a hard time trusting men. I even have a hard time trusting IAMCIV and he's never done anything to make me think I can't trust him or I should leave him." I was thinking, What?! Just the other day you were saying you wanted a divorce... And this was after the first time she found out I was looking at porn, the very reason she wanted to leave me and couldn't trust me. I was like, huh? 

So it seemed when she thought "rationally" (whatever that means) about my looking at porn, she wasn't that upset about it, but when her emotions (as I call them for a lack of a better term) come into play, if I look at porn again, she's leaving. 

I always thought that statement was so strange. Now it's starting to make sense. I think.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

IAMCIV said:


> So times in our married lives she would say thing that were the complete opposite of what she told me sometimes hours or days before. It was like her "black and white" filter was off...is this a behavior of BPD?


Yes, IAMCIV, that "rewriting of history" is very common with BPDers. My exW did it every few weeks. If your W is a BPDer, what you were witnessing in her statement to the groom -- acknowledging that she had no basis for mistrusting you -- is what is called "moments of clarity." My exW also would get those moments in which she seemed to see clearly that I was not the liar that she so often accused me of. As you say, it was as though she had momentarily turned off the black-white filter.

Most of the time, however, a BPDer's perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations is distorted by the intense feelings she has little control over. This is why BPD is referred to as a "thought disorder."

In addition, there are several other reasons why a BPDer often will contradict herself. One is that a BPDer typically will flat out lie if you get her pinned into a corner, where the shame of admitting guilt would be very painful for her fragile ego. 

Another reason -- and this is much more common -- is that a BPDer's perception of you changes to reflect her current feelings. Her feelings are so intense that she is convinced they are real -- because she is not good at challenging them intellectually. The result is that this highly intelligent woman will come up with the most convoluted, absurd explanation as to how she did not really promise to do something two days earlier.

A third reason is that, at a subconscious level, her mind is ridding itself of guilt by projecting bad thoughts and guilt onto you. She therefore will start believing -- at a conscious level -- these new allegations about you even though they contradict what she believed about you only yesterday. As I said earlier, BPDers have great difficulty with "object constancy" and therefore do not have a consistent perception of you as an individual. This, at least, is my understanding of it.


----------



## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

I understand she may have BPD, but she also may not. Self diagnosis as you said yourself is not that of a psychologist.

My mother is like your wife. Her stems from severe anxiety. This is how her anxiety comes out (paranoid about health issues) and she is at the doctors or hospitals every week with suspected fatal illnesses.

You need to somehow get through to her that this is not normal. Whether it be someone outside of you telling her or even watching an episode of Dr Phil together which dealt with this. Something where she can see or hear from another perspective.

Living with someone with anxiety like this is tough I understand. This is how her anxiety manifests (health). It is like a compulsion that OCD sufferers have (I know). For her the symptoms and threats are very real, and very scary.

It's very hard though, I'm very wary to approach my mother as she is alone and has dark thoughts at times, plus she is much older. Better luck to you.


----------



## IAMCIV (Nov 8, 2011)

Gratitude said:


> I understand she may have BPD, but she also may not. Self diagnosis as you said yourself is not that of a psychologist.
> 
> My mother is like your wife. Her stems from severe anxiety. This is how her anxiety comes out (paranoid about health issues) and she is at the doctors or hospitals every week with suspected fatal illnesses.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for your reply and I understand when she's crying woirried that she's dying that it's very real for her. She gets depressed and a couple of times she was ready to tell the kids she was sick and might be dying... That's going to far in my book and I told her if she did that I'd divorce her and keep the kids. I couldn't believe she'd do that, but she believes with all her heart that she has these dieases. I feel so horrible and helpless sometimes. It's classic BPD though, I feel like I'm on the end of a yo-yo and when things go bad, I try to make them better, because when they're good, they're great. 

Reading about BPD has been eye opening and when researching I can hear "IAMCIV, This is your life!" in that anouncers voice.


----------



## IAMCIV (Nov 8, 2011)

Uptown, I cannot thank you enough for the information you've shared here with me. Honestly, your posts were so helpful that I cannot imagine not having the information you shared, and staying sane (or going more insane I should say).

I haven't said much to my wife in regards to anything but I can see everything so clearly now. She always says little things like her head hurts or stomach hurts and in a way where she's not complaining genuinly about the pain, but wants me to help her emotionally. Time and time again, she'd be with faimly while I was working and if I'd call, I could hear her having the greatest time, laughing and as soon as I'd show up... her head hurts, her stomach hurts, something would go wrong. And I felt like crap so many times, like the party spoiler just by showing up and now I see it's all because I'm her "savior". I've always told her I must be the cause of her headaches since she doesn't ever seem to have them away from me. She say stuff like don't be crazy and of course not, but now I see and understand the behavior. I've always asked why she is happy go lucky without me and when I show up this or that is wrong. I'm supposed to be mr. fix all. The person she is with me isn't the person she is with her family, when I'm not around. I've often felt like I was the problem. Now I see it's one of the roles I play.

But in reading all this and researching BPD, I've gone through many emotions and an interior journey. When first writing this thread, I was basically going to ask the opinon of people regarding the mental health responsibilties of spouses to their marriage. Like am i crazy for not being able to handle this. I don't think I ever even posted that question, but that was my intent. I have decided that if my wife has a disorder of the emotions like BPD (which I am now convinced she has), I will do my best to stand by her side. I married her in sickness and in health and I meant it. If it was any other physical disease I wouldn't even consider leaving but then again when a physical disease comes, you don't feel like a yo-yo bouncing off the rubber walls of an institution. Well maybe you do. Either way, after a couple of days of hopelessness, I feel better, like armed with this knowledge I can sustain. At least I know what's in front of me.

I love my wife, she is an amazing person and if she wants rid of me, I guess that will be her decision, but I know what I want, the same thing I wanted 12 yrs ago.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

IAMCIV said:


> The person she is with me isn't the person she is with her family, when I'm not around. I've often felt like I was the problem.


Yes, you are part of the problem. You are the enabler. The reason she behaves like a sick little vulnerable girl is that, around you, she can get away with it. Instead of enabling her, it would be far healthier for both of you if you allowed her to suffer the logical consequences of her own dysfunctional behavior.


> I have decided that if my wife has a disorder of the emotions like BPD (which I am now convinced she has), I will do my best to stand by her side. ... If it was any other physical disease I wouldn't even consider leaving.


If your W is a BPDer, her disorder does NOT provide an excuse for her abusive treatment of you, e.g., all the hostile accusations when you glance at another woman, talk about dancing with your D, or look at a Playboy magazine.

Moreover, BPD is NOT analogous to a broken leg or other physical ailment. At any point during your many arguments with her, she has the option of taking responsibility for her own actions and seeking help from a psych to guide her on learning how to control her issues. A dozen times a day, however, she CHOOSES not to improve herself even though she knows you are very unhappy. Hence, although she did not choose to get this disorder when she was in early childhood, she is now choosing _over and over again_ not to do anything about it. And you are enabling her to do that by remaining at her side, walking on eggshells to avoid triggering her too often.

Further, if she has strong BPD traits, she is incapable of trusting you or appreciating the many sacrifices you make on her behalf. This means it is impossible for you to build up a store of good will on which to draw during the hard times. Trying to make a BPDer feel appreciative is a fool's errand. It is as productive as trying to build a lasting sandcastle beside the sea. All of the appreciation is so short lived that it will be washed aside by the next tide of intense feelings flooding through her mind.

In addition, due to her inability to trust you, you will be subject to endless testing. Each time you pass the test by jumping through a hoop (e.g., throwing away the Playboys), she will simply raise the hoop higher. The way it works with BPDers is that, because they cannot love or trust themselves, they can never believe that you really love them -- and can never trust you not to leave them. Hence, the more you do to prove your love, the more insistent she will become that you cannot possibly love her.

My exW, for example, subjected me to endless testing. The fact that I adored her and married her meant nothing. She would feel unloved if I glanced at another woman for a half-second instead of a third-second. She would feel disrespected if she noticed me walking a step or two in front of her as we walked down the street -- and she would deliberately slow down to see just how long it took me to notice that she had dropped slightly behind me. Such tests -- and there were hundreds of them -- became exhausting and draining.

Also, keep in mind that, although a BPDer is capable of loving you, it is not the mature love you expect from a marriage partner. Rather, it is the type of impaired, immature love you receive from a four year old, where "I love you" largely means "I desperately need you to love ME." My point, then, is that living with a BPDer is not at all comparable to living with a physically handicapped adult. Instead, it is like being married to a four year old who has the intelligence, cunning, knowledge, and full body strength of a full-grown adult.


> I love my wife, she is an amazing person and if she wants rid of me, I guess that will be her decision, but I know what I want, the same thing I wanted 12 yrs ago.


IAMCIV, you are the only one who knows whether your W's BPD traits are at a mild, moderate, or strong level. Hence, you are the only one who can decide whether her amazing qualities (e.g., the passion and purity of expressions that give her a warmth otherwise seen only in children) are large enough to offset her damaging BPD behaviors. Moreover, you are the person best positioned to know whether staying married is in the best interests of your two children. 

I mention these considerations to explain why there is no need for you to feel defensive, here on TAM, about choosing to remain with your W. You are the only person with sufficient knowledge to be able to make the right decision. I therefore am confident that, with your quickly growing knowledge of BPD traits, you will make the choice that is right for you and your kids -- regardless of what that decision proves to be.


----------



## IAMCIV (Nov 8, 2011)

Uptown said:


> Yes, you are part of the problem. You are the enabler. The reason she behaves like a sick little vulnerable girl is that, around you, she can get away with it. Instead of enabling her, it would be far healthier for both of you if you allowed her to suffer the logical consequences of her own dysfunctional behavior.If your W is a BPDer, her disorder does NOT provide an excuse for her abusive treatment of you, e.g., all the hostile accusations when you glance at another woman, talk about dancing with your D, or look at a Playboy magazine.
> 
> Moreover, BPD is NOT analogous to a broken leg or other physical ailment. At any point during your many arguments with her, she has the option of taking responsibility for her own actions and seeking help from a psych to guide her on learning how to control her issues. A dozen times a day, however, she CHOOSES not to improve herself even though she knows you are very unhappy. Hence, although she did not choose to get this disorder when she was in early childhood, she is now choosing _over and over again_ not to do anything about it. And you are enabling her to do that by remaining at her side, walking on eggshells to avoid triggering her too often.
> 
> ...


Uptown, your posts have been invaluable. Sorry it's taken so long to reply but I've been away for a couple of days, just reflecting and trying to make sense of everything. 

Yesterday I was given the silent treatment all day because, "i don't care" about her. Just because I said if she thinks she is sick she needs to go to a dr. But the fact that I didn't show any emotion towards the fact that she thinks she has a terminal disease, becasue I know she doesn't have one, makes her say we need to get divorced and she wasn't talking to me. I spent the majority of the day thinking to myself if I should really tell her lets end it. She supposedly ment it and ignored me all day, it took me doing the things I always do to make her talk to me, to show her I do care, even though, like you said its a fools errend. But I against my own judgement found myself trying to make everything ok. It's like it said on the other web site, when things are good, they're great so I'm constantly trying to get things back to where they were. But I know, it will never stay there. 

I'm really trying to figure things out. She still thinks she's dying and for now she thinks I care about her. I've been going through all these emotions, I've felt depressed for a couple of days. Thinking I don't know what it really feels like to be loved; I know what it feels like to have a person need you to love them. Maybe that's going to far, but I'm so tired of all this back and forth. And I've even stated to her that she should see a dr. to which she replied, "If you think I'm crazy just leave." I just replied that she's not crazy she just needs to get a grip on her fears. 

I think sometimes it'd be best to break things off, but her happiness is all I care about. It's like they say I guess, only fools fall in love.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

IAMCIV, thanks for the update.


IAMCIV said:


> I think sometimes it'd be best to break things off, but *her happiness* *is all I care about*.


That is a very unhealthy attitude -- and you know it. Like me, you are an excessive caregiver whose desire to be needed (for what you can do) far exceeds your desire to be loved (for the man you already are). 

I therefore am glad that you've started working on building much stronger personal boundaries. As you start enforcing them, IAMCIV, you will actually be helping your W by allowing her to suffer the logical consequences of her own bad behavior. That will give her an incentive to confront her own issues and start to grow up emotionally. If you were to deny her that opportunity -- as you have in the past by walking on eggshells -- you would be harming her.


----------



## IAMCIV (Nov 8, 2011)

Uptown said:


> IAMCIV, thanks for the update.That is a very unhealthy attitude -- and you know it. Like me, you are an excessive caregiver whose desire to be needed (for what you can do) far exceeds your desire to be loved (for the man you already are).
> 
> I therefore am glad that you've started working on building much stronger personal boundaries. As you start enforcing them, IAMCIV, you will actually be helping your W by allowing her to suffer the logical consequences of her own bad behavior. That will give her an incentive to confront her own issues and start to grow up emotionally. If you were to deny her that opportunity -- as you have in the past by walking on eggshells -- you would be harming her.


You are right, I need to allow her to acknowledge her inapporpiate behavior, which she can't see because I always try and tolerate her behavior. 

At least I see what is happening here, before I felt like I was going out of my mind. 

Before I would think there was going to be an end to her behavior, eventually, at least I hoped. Now I see that if I keep allowing it, it will continue.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

IAMCIV said:


> I need to allow her to acknowledge her inappropiate behavior, which she can't see because I always try and tolerate her behavior.


Actually, if she has strong BPD traits, she likely will never see her own inappropriate behavior no matter what you do. It's not that she is incapable of seeing it but, rather, that -- due to her self loathing and shame -- she CHOOSES to avoid seeing it by projecting it onto you. That projection will likely continue no matter how you respond.

So, when I said that your enabling behavior is destroying any CHANCE of her having an incentive to confront her issues, I meant that you are harming her by destroying that small chance. But it is a very small chance. I would be surprised if as many as 1 in 100 high functioning BPDers ever take advantage of that chance. Therapist Shari Schreiber says you have a better chance flying to the moon strapped to a banana than ever seeing a BPDer stay in therapy long enough to make a real difference.


> Now I see that if I keep allowing [her childish behavior], it will continue.


As I just noted, that behavior likely will continue no matter what you do if she is a BPDer. When you stop walking on eggshells and start being your true self again, what will likely happen is that she will find it intolerable to live with a person who refuses to validate her false self image of always being "the victim." That's what happened to me, with my exW choosing to leave me. When (and if) this occurs, IAMCIV, you likely will see a level of meanness and vindictiveness you never thought she was capable of.


----------



## IAMCIV (Nov 8, 2011)

Uptown said:


> As I just noted, that behavior likely will continue no matter what you do if she is a BPDer. When you stop walking on eggshells and start being your true self again, what will likely happen is that she will find it intolerable to live with a person who refuses to validate her false self image of always being "the victim." That's what happened to me, with my exW choosing to leave me. When (and if) this occurs, IAMCIV, you likely will see a level of meanness and vindictiveness you never thought she was capable of.


I know, I already see the signs, like the silent treatment for not giving her the sympathy she wants for being sick. I don't want to leave, but I can't imagine living like this forever. I talked to her about needing to see a dr due to her constant fear of being sick and she acted like she had no idea what I was alking about. Like the last 10 yrs haven't been spent constantly worried about some damned disease. Rewriting the past...


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

IAMCIV, thanks for giving us another update. It sounds like your eyes are wide open and you have a much better understanding of the many games she is playing to avoid confronting her issues.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

3Leaf, thanks for giving us such an articulate explanation of what having strong BPD traits feels like from a person suffering from them. I agree with all that you have said. As a man who tried in vain for 15 years to help my exW become self aware, I can't tell you what a joy it is to be able to communicate with self-aware BPDers. 

So far, I've communicated with nearly a hundred folks who, like you, are self aware and have learned to manage their BPD traits. Such is the wonder of the Internet -- bringing people together who otherwise would have little chance of meeting in the physical world. In my private life, I've met numerous BPDers but have never knowingly met one who is self aware like you. 

I would be surprised if as many as 5% of BPDers are self aware like you -- and as many as 1% have both the self awareness and ego strength necessary to stay in a treatment program long enough to make a difference. I therefore applaud you, 3Leaf!


3leafclover said:


> Uptown made a comment ..."it just gets worse as the years go by". This is not necessarily true. BPD is often worst in the 20's and sometimes starts to improve in women in their 30's or 40's.


Again, I agree. Studies have shown that BPD traits do mellow somewhat with age. I don't believe this vague finding offers much hope, however, to a young man who is trying to decide whether to give his W another 5 or 10 years to change.

One reason I am very skeptical is that none of these studies define just how much better these "improved" BPDers will behave. This is a problem because a person satisfying only 70% of the diagnostic criteria may be almost as impossible to live with as a person satisfying 100%.

A second reason for my skepticism is that the studies examine only the BPDers who are actually diagnosed as having full-blown BPD. This presents a BIG problem because the vast majority of _diagnosed_ BPDers are low functioning people who are suffering so badly that "normal" folks will not date them, much less marry them.

Hence, a man who is married to a BPDer -- as IAMCIV may be -- almost certainly is married to a _high functioning_ BPDer. I doubt that these HF BPDers, which account for the vast majority of BPDers, are included in the studies because it is unusual for them to be diagnosed as "having BPD." 

Therapists are LOATH to give such a person a diagnosis of "BPD" even when their behavior satisfies 100% of the diagnostic criteria. Therapists know they almost certainly will quit therapy when told the true diagnosis. Therapists also know that giving them a new identity (as "the BPDer") can make their behavior much worse as they start exhibiting all 9 traits instead of only 5 or 6. And therapists know the treatments will not be covered by insurance if the diagnosis is listed as "BPD" but will be if it is listed as one of the side effects such as anxiety, depression, or PTSD. 

I therefore see no evidence that the high functioning BPDers tend to become more healthy as they age. Maybe they do. I doubt, however, that the studies include enough HF BPDers to be able to cast any light on what is happening to those BPDers who are healthy enough to be dating and getting married.

A third reason for my skepticism that "things will get better" for the nonBPD spouse is that -- even if his BPDer wife does mellow a bit -- this doesn't mean she will treat him any better. On the contrary, my experience -- and that of numerous folks I communicated with online -- is that the abusive treatment will get worse EVEN IF the BPDer is improving. 

The reason this occurs, I believe, is that the BPDer becomes increasingly resentful -- as the years go by -- of her husband's inability to make her happy. And, as her body ages, she becomes increasingly fearful of abandonment. This is why it seems common for a BPDer to walk away from the spouse after about 12-15 years.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

:iagree:IAMCIV, I again agree with 3Leaf's advice. No, 3Leaf, I am not a psychologist. Rather, I am just a guy who took his wife to 6 different psychologists for weekly visits over a period of 15 years. I therefore am just sharing my experiences (and what I've read over the past 5 years). 

This is why, IAMCIV, I have encouraged you to read about BPD traits so you can decide, _for yourself_, whether the red flags are strong and persistent. And this is why I encouraged you, as 3Leaf is doing, to check with your OWN psychologist -- for at least a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion.


----------



## IAMCIV (Nov 8, 2011)

Thanks so much for the input up and 3. 

As of right now I have made no major decisions. I am learning to see things from a new point of view and processing new thoughts. I want my wife to get help but am not sure how to bring this up. I've called trying to get her appointments for psycologists before and I couldn't make the appointment for her, she had to call and do it. So right now I'm observing, however understanding she may have an emotional disorder has been a major help to my sanity. 

These last few days have been wonderful, but that only means something is coming up soon.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

IAMCIV, thanks for your latest update. Yes, I understand your uneasiness with things being wonderful for a time. With BPDers -- if that is what your W is -- it is extremely difficult to determine whether they are improving, even if they do go to therapy every week. In the same way that smokers are always "quitting" every three weeks, a BPDer is always greatly "improving" every few weeks. That's how emotionally unstable folks are. It therefore is a real challenge to see any significant improvement even when it does occur. And, if you follow the path I took, you will start "seeing improvement" even when it is not actually taking place.


----------



## IAMCIV (Nov 8, 2011)

Uptown said:


> IAMCIV, thanks for your latest update. Yes, I understand your uneasiness with things being wonderful for a time. With BPDers -- if that is what your W is -- it is extremely difficult to determine whether they are improving, even if they do go to therapy every week. In the same way that smokers are always "quitting" every three weeks, a BPDer is always greatly "improving" every few weeks. That's how emotionally unstable folks are. It therefore is a real challenge to see any significant improvement even when it does occur. And, if you follow the path I took, you will start "seeing improvement" even when it is not actually taking place.


I've already been there, always telling myself things will get better, looking for signs of improvment, and then realizing that everything is the same as before. I refuse to be in that state of mind anymore. I'm looking at things through a much broader lens now. I'm about 98% certain she has bdp, and 100% certain she'd never admit it or think about seeking help. But at this point I'm understanding why she does and says what she does and I no longer feel like I'm goin crazy, or as crazy. It's like I have a new platform to view these episodes from. And I've evn avoided some issues that would have normally been huge ordeals by understanding why, she was saying a particular thing.

It's not easy but it is easier.


----------

