# Accepting materialism



## RandomDude

Been pushed over the edge recently with a discussion with some friends which has led me to give up on any idealism and hope for the future when it comes to relationships.

I was spoiled in my youth and marriage, my ex-wife didn't care about how much I was making as she had the financial fallback and support already, and in my heart I felt truly loved compared to the revelations nowadays that materialism is a necessity where I live. Big city realities.

I've rejected women because they couldn't compare to my ex, yet their reasons for materialism is sound. None of the women I've dated after ex have the same financial fallback as my ex, so I flagged them all as materialistic when they are simply being realistic.

Yet I can't let go of the feeling of being loved for who I am and not how much I made. I feel disgusted with the revelations that my wealth contributes to my attractiveness when it's the last thing I wish to be valued for. This idealism is not realistic and unhealthy if I am to get involved with any woman either than my ex.

If I continue like this, it's just never going to happen. How do I accept materialism? How do I stop comparing women to my ex?


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## Miss Independent

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## RandomDude

That's the point, only way to finally move on from her is to learn to accept women unlike her, women who do not have the financial fallback coming from a wealthy family, women who are realistic and hold standards in regards to the wealth of their spouse. Ex unfortunately had the one quality that makes me impossible for me to move on, she makes everyone else look like gold diggers though after time spent back in the dating scene I realised the main reason she didn't care, is because she didn't need to. 

I need to let it go. The question is how?


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## norajane

Have you tried dating a woman with a healthy career and her own income?

What do you do that you would come into contact with women who care more about a person's character than their income potential? Do you volunteer at anything to help others? That's where you might meet a different kind of woman than the kind you're meeting in bars or online.

When does your wealth make its presence known? Before or after these women get to you know who you are as a person?

ETA: Your ex abused you. Stop romanticizing and idealizing her now. You're re-writing history to omit the parts of her that were highly destructive to and painful for you. She didn't take your money, but she took other things from you, more important things.


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## RandomDude

All the women I've dated post-ex have a healthy career and their own income. But they all desire children of their own, and hence they must acknowledge the necessities of it, and hence they value men based on income level - they say they don't really have a choice. Yet it disgusts me, ex-gf never hid the fact that one of the reasons she was drawn to me was my financial security. I find it hard to accept that based on what I had experienced with ex-wife, and I struggle to move on from the standard she set.

My wealth makes its presence known sometimes straight off the bat, other times it remains hidden and throughout the years and experiences in dating it determines the success of almost all my dates; if my success is known before hand, I struggle to get rid of them. If I hide my success, they refuse to invest in me. I only met one another woman who didn't care, but she was very new to city lifestyle, and she's not very realistic with her expectations. In other words, she never thought that far ahead, nor did ex-wife (and ex-wife took a huge risk by marrying me). The other women that I've dated, have.

I need to come to accept that materialism is a necessity in my city. I struggle and struggle and this the only way otherwise I will remain bitter and have all this success and no one to share it with either than my daughter who is spoiled as it is.


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## RandomDude

Ex-wife has her problems and I am not blind to them however in the end the fact remains that she did love me for who I was and proved that to me. I need to move on from that, somehow, yet I still hold myself to this standard that remains idealistic and not very understanding to the dilemmas of women living in this city who want marriage and long term commitment.

If I can't accept materialism, I can't allow myself to love, and if I can't love, I won't be happy in any "relationship" and it's best to decide to give it up for good and tell myself that it's never going to happen. That's the only two options I see before me, I don't see a third.


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## norajane

There is no place where people do not seek security. Financial security and materialism are not the same thing. You also seek security - financial security through your business, and emotional security by leaving your abusive wife.

People always seek something from a partner, whether it's money or something else. You look down on women who seek a husband with a stable income for family purposes, even though you understand the practicality. It disgusts you. That seems to be a deep, visceral reaction, maybe out of proportion to the reality of it. You won't overcome it unless you figure out where it comes from, and that answer usually lies with some fear you have.


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## Emerging Buddhist

@norajane makes a sound case for surrounding yourself with the right people, no matter if simply for friendship.

It is always helpful to spend some time reevaluating one's place in this wonderful world... being happy and useful for the right reasons is a wonderful purpose.

Finances should play little part in that, maybe detaching from materialism would open up some lessons of life, self, and future in areas you never intended them to come from.


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## norajane

RandomDude said:


> *Ex-wife has her problems and I am not blind to them however in the end the fact remains that she did love me for who I was and proved that to me.* I need to move on from that, somehow, yet I still hold myself to this standard that remains idealistic and not very understanding to the dilemmas of women living in this city who want marriage and long term commitment.


Did she? Or did she want sex from you, on her terms, all the time? And she got it. At your expense. 

You are holding on so tightly to your view that your ex is the paragon here. Let it go. She used you. Not for money. But she used you. Maybe that's why you are so afraid of being used again.

Therapy, dude. Go back to therapy. And stop fixating on what is wrong with every woman you meet, but in what you still need to repair within you that your ex-wife damaged.



> If I can't accept materialism, I can't allow myself to love, and if I can't love, I won't be happy in any "relationship" and it's best to decide to give it up for good and tell myself that it's never going to happen. That's the only two options I see before me, I don't see a third.


Start by changing your script. Stop calling it materialism, and start calling it financial security and common sense, the exact same things you want in your own life. 

You can't love until you are healthy. You're not there yet. You aren't ready to give, not money, but of yourself to someone, and until you can give of yourself, you can't love anyone else.


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## RandomDude

When I was married in our early years it was a struggle financially. I resorted to working 84 hour weeks to provide for my wife and baby girl. I refused her offer to accept her parents' money - that was my choice. I did it, because I felt loved for who I was. I was inspired to provide, not pushed to. I compare that kind of love to the relationship my mother has with step-dad. Do I fear ending up in stepdad's shoes, yes I do.

I wonder how he can be content with a wife who married him for security, when I can't, and it just comes down to the fact that I'm spoiled, that I maintain a foolish idealism when it comes to love, yet it is this love which was pure in the beginning that drove me to the success I enjoy today. Ex may have been selfish when it comes to sex but for me, being in stepdad's shoes is so much worse for me, and I struggle to accept the latter, so much.

I want to know how I can, and if I even can, cause if not, then it's over.


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## Emerging Buddhist

Too much time seems spent on trying to figure out others when you are the only one needing.

There is nothing wrong with alone time... use it wisely.


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## Holland

RD you have been here before with this concern. Nothing has changed IMHO except you are sounding more and more wound up about it.

Leave the women alone for a while then when you have your head screwed on straight again go and meet women that you are financially compatible with. Honestly you are coming off as a bit of a whinger with this issue. You live in the biggest city in Oz that is full of hard working, well off women. I get the impression you actually don't want to find one because a woman that is your equal might just scare the life out of you. Better to stick with the ones that you have resentment for even before you meet them.


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## RandomDude

I've met them I just can't accept them.

Other blokes can, hell we talk about it all the time, they know in the end, money is paramount. They accept the reality that women are after security when it comes to anything more than a fling, when I don't, even though over the years I've come to understand women who aren't like my ex who never had to worry about money.

I've been too much of an idealist and I know that, yet I continue to struggle with accepting the reality of things. With ex-gf when she asked me to finance her startup I felt sick to my core, I didn't want to give, because I compared her to my ex and went "wait a second, is this your plan all along?"


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## SimplyAmorous

RandomDude said:


> Ex-wife has her problems and I am not blind to them however in the end the fact remains that she did love me for who I was and proved that to me. *I need to move on from that, somehow, yet I still hold myself to this standard that remains idealistic and not very understanding to the dilemmas of women living in this city who want marriage and long term commitment.*


 Why does being *Materialistic* have to run along the same lines as wanting *long term commitment ??* 

Using myself as an example... I consider myself very frugal.. when I married my husband.. I even made more than he did... I didn't drop him thinking I could do better...He appealed to me because he wanted that "long term commitment"... and kids too... but no one would ever call me materialistic...a "cheap mother" maybe.. 

I won't even allow myself a Pepsi out to eat.. it's always water.. kids will do likewise.. Never been a city girl though.. 

There are women like this around, who aren't looking to put a man in the poorhouse.. evaluating him on the vehicle he drives, living to wine & dine her.. 

Unlike your ex's upbringing... I didn't grow up with being given much at all.. I feel this played into the fact... I felt more secure to always have "savings" as a back up.. very very important to me!!.. or I'd be working like a dog.. trying to build our savings back up.. 

I just hate debt... I refuse to pay interest on anything.. You haven't met any women with this mindset in all this time , more conservative with $$... They are out there ! She is not going to squander your money -if you 2 become a couple.. because Your money is HER money too, and that's your future..


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## RandomDude

Women like you are like a dream SA, but its just not my reality. It hurts even to entertain the possibility that women like you exist bc I cant find them, especially not in this city for understandable reasons.

Im stuck here in this materialistic cesspool. Yet I cant adapt because I hold into idealism of love untainted by greed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shoto1984

I'm not up on RD's history but I will say that I share his feeling about being financially evaluated by women. Over and over the early conversations are filled with qualifying questions designed to determine my status. In my head they quickly end up in the high priced call girl category with the important difference being that they want to keep the trick going and going. No thanks.


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## EllisRedding

I think as you get older and accomplish more, materialism will always be a concern. When my W and I first met, we were young, had very little, so material things were never an issue/concern for us.

At this point though, if I were single, it would be a huge concern of mine when dating. I can understand how security/material items can add to ones attraction, but the question would be is that the main driving force for someone wanting to be with you.


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## Holland

RandomDude said:


> I've met them I just can't accept them.
> 
> Other blokes can, hell we talk about it all the time, they know in the end, money is paramount. They accept the reality that women are after security when it comes to anything more than a fling, when I don't, even though over the years I've come to understand women who aren't like my ex who never had to worry about money.
> 
> I've been too much of an idealist and I know that, yet I continue to struggle with accepting the reality of things. With ex-gf when she asked me to finance her startup I felt sick to my core, I didn't want to give, because I compared her to my ex and went "wait a second, is this your plan all along?"


You keep ignoring the 3rd option you claim to be looking for. Look for a financial *equal*. Your GF was not that or she would not have been looking to you to help fund her.


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## EllisRedding

Also RD, did you ever sort out how to have sex with short people? :smile2:


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## EnjoliWoman

Interesting to think about, Random. 

Would you date an ugly woman? 

I ask that because women have a similar issue over a different topic: looks. Does an attractive woman worry that you are only interested in her because she's beautiful? And that you might not love her for who she is on the INSIDE? Just like you worry that you won't be loved for who you are on the inside with these women only looking at fiscal wealth. The time isn't so long ago when men of wealth married women of beauty - that's what they both brought to the table. Even now it's pretty much that way, so you each have similar concerns about being cared about for who you really are deep down. 

But if it helps ease your mind, wealth can make a man more attractive as a potential mate but it can't compensate for a bad person. Most any woman would tell you that most importantly a man has to be someone she is attracted to with a moderate income that demonstrates a level of stability. More money is great and will help make things easier but without the initial attraction, it's not enough to compensate. Most women would prefer to be happily with a man of moderate means than with a man they didn't like who was wealthy. At that point she's just a high end prostitute, selling her body to the highest bidder, even if a ring and contract is involved. So the women are into you and your income is just icing on the cake, just like you are into the woman and her above-average looks are icing on the cake.

Personally, I'm pretty solid middle class. I earn above the median but not enough to impress anyone. I may get bashed for this, BUT, I am not particularly interested in men who earn a lot less than me. Mostly because they aren't very interesting. They usually aren't curious about the world enough for my taste. I want someone who is interested in other cultures - traveling there and experiencing the food, the art, the history. And if travel isn't doable, still learning (whether reading or watching something) and trying new things and being open minded is important to me. And while there may be less wealthy men who earn much less and have those characteristics, they are usually the flightier artsy-fartsy type. I guess I'm looking for a down to earth guy with a little sophistication and that isn't a combination often found on a construction site doing manual labor. BUT if he were, his salary would not preclude him from being my partner if all of the other elements are there. Because at the end of the day, common interests lead to great conversation and cerebral stimulation is key to a good physical connection as well.


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## Wolf1974

I have no idea how much you make OP but my guess is a well bit more than me. What I can tell you from personal experience is even if you don't make a ton, again like me, money is always an issue. I have had girls that bypassed me because I don't make a millions a year and are probably the same women who want you because you do. What I have always done is to try to make dating as little about money as possible. First couple dates are free or only 20$ or so. Hike, walk in park, couple beers, coffee. I had one woman once tell me she only goes out to dinner dates . I told her to have a good night. Also nothing wrong with asking the lady to pay for something along the date. I personally never liked the 1/2 thing but prefer "hey I'll get dinner you get the movie ok?" If they made a big deal of this then we wouldn't be compatible. 

My point is you can weed out those who are using you for money. Not all women are interested in men just for money, just take things slow and make it known you aren't looking to fund someone's good time.


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## always_alone

There are lots of non-materialistic women in this world. And like Holland suggested lors that are more than capable of providing for their own material needs and desires. 

You are just looking in the wrong places.


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## Miss Independent

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## MrsAldi

@RandomDude materialism has got nothing to do with love. 
If me & my husband had nothing & lived on the street we'd still be happy. 
I think you're not over your ex. 
You don't have to tell women on dates your income. 




Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## richardsharpe

Good evening
I view wealth as a useful tool for making life easier. Not as a goal, or as a measure of overall worth, but still important.

Spending money to make your life better is fine. So is caring about the financial situation of potential partners.

The one thing I would avoid is falling into the trap of spending money to "compete" with other people who spend money. That can never bring happiness because there is alwyas someone out there who can spend more than you can.


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## zookeeper

It's a shame that someone concerned with a partner's ability to earn a living is automatically labeled "gold digger." 

Having a steady, healthy income is not just a means to the end of having more stuff. It is can also be an indicator of maturity, responsibility, reliability, ambition, drive and good decision making skills. Not a guarantee either way, but these are good indicators to look for. At the very least, a woman who gets involved with a financially successful man has fewer worries that she will end up supporting him while he sits on the couch getting fatter and playing video games.

Are there people out there that want a meal ticket? Sure. Does that mean that anyone who looks for someone who is financially successful is a money grabber? No way. 

If I were single and looking for a LTR, I would most certainly be looking for a woman who is reasonably successful financially. Not only for the reasons above, but so that I know I won't be limited in the life I want to live because she can't afford to participate unless I foot the bill. I'm very generous (often to a fault) but at this point in my life

Sounds to me that women who acknowledge your income trigger your own insecurities. Perhaps you are concerned that if you lost your income they would have no further use for you? Maybe you are just using this as a wall to prevent you from getting hurt again. Could be any number of things. Are you seeing a counselor to help you work this through? 

The fact that you chose to work over 80 hours a week instead of accepting help from your in laws speaks volumes. Doesn't sound to me like you are comfortable with your own worth as a person. How did it benefit your wife and child to have you gone most of the time and probably dog-tired whenever you actually were home? Why would you refuse the help? Did you feel judged by them?


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## Kivlor

It's natural for women to gauge men by status and capacity to provide just like it's natural for men to gauge women on traits like clear skin, hip to waist ratio, etc. I think the real issue is learning to accept that.

I actually disagree with the statements here about finding a financial equal. I think that in general--obvious exceptions apply--this is setting yourself up for failure. There is a reason why men who earn less than their wives are at higher risk of divorce. Most women don't want an equal, they want a man who is strong, powerful, higher status etc. I wouldn't hold out looking for someone who is my equal. They are too rare to acquire, too exhausting to keep and just as prone to treachery as anyone else. 

People--women or men--have agendas. Just try to make sure the ones you surround yourself with--or tie yourself off to--don't have agendas that run counter to your own and counter to your well being. 

Maybe I'm just a jaded pessimist...


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## Mr. Nail

@RandomDude ,
Like many respondents I think that what is troubling you runs deeper than money. I think you are labeling it as materialism because you don't know what it is that is turning you off. Are you interested in more Children? Are you interested in travel? Are you interested in sharing a hobby? I'm not sure you know what it is you want from a relationship. It's a hard question, you may not be able to visualize what s successful relationship looks like to you. You haven't experienced it yet. 

To put it briefly. You don't know what you want, but you do know what it isn't.


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## SimplyAmorous

RandomDude said:


> Women like you are like a dream SA, but its just not my reality. It hurts even to entertain the possibility that women like you exist bc I cant find them, especially not in this city for understandable reasons.
> 
> *Im stuck here in this materialistic cesspool. Yet I cant adapt because I hold into idealism of love untainted by greed.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow.. that was really nice of you to say Random Dude! 

I'm trying to figure out what is behind your preoccupation with materialism.. how do you describe Materialism ? Here is one definition : 


> *a tendency to consider material possessions and physical comfort as more important than spiritual values*


 

Would you say you are a "spiritual person" Random Dude?

Which is more something that EATS at you.. is it that you want to be assured she is IN LOVE with you (that idealism) and less about how much money you make.. (as this may not = genuine love, but a facade)...

Or .. you would be very very upset to be get entangled with a woman who can't live within her or you & her's means?

Speaking of your ex...is she with another,* is she happy? *You were surely the love of her life...


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## RandomDude

When I do hide my financial status with prospective dates I don't exactly pose as a bum. I do omit information that need not be shared, however I do share my role and some of my responsibilities, I also share stories that are commonplace in my line of work. The impression I like them to have, is of a simple, humble, man who enjoys his work, is financially stable and able to carry his own weight, with enough to spare. These are the standards that even I, myself, as a father, hold for my future son-in-law.

Yet these standards fall short of the standards set by the women where I live, as a six figure salary is the bare minimum here for what they consider "long term potential". The reason for this is the very high cost of living. In early marriage before my business was more established I also had to purchase property far from the vicinity of the major developed areas due to extortionate prices of real estate. My wife did not mind at the time, the women I've met after her - consider that a dealbreaker, as they wish to purchase property in a "reputable" and "convenient" location, with prices in the millions. Some also insisted that when they get married they do not wish to own second hand goods, which they had when growing up. They do not wish to be frugal.

This is a very consistent attitude, and they deny their materialism, insisting that they are simply looking for "financially stable" men. Simply twisting words does not convince me however, I'm a hard sell. So I call it as it is, materialism. It's accepted by men here in this city so they get away with it. My friends especially those born and raised in this city's culture no longer really don't care. Those who do not meet the standards, lie to get what they want, and their wives later complain about their deadbeat husbands. Those who do meet the standards, know full well that their wives are in it for security.

I dare to be different and hold onto the ideals of what I believe love should be about.

Yes, there are exceptions, ex-wife was one, one woman I dated recently was also another, but thats two out of thousands and we had other issues to deal with. I wish I can be like my friends and accept the reality of money being paramount when it comes to love but I'm holding onto something that has only led me to loneliness, disappointment and disgust.

@SA

Ex and I are friends and coparents but maintain a certain distance. She is with someone else now yes. Whether or not she is happy, it's none of my business anymore I guess. Regardless the face she wears for me remains pleasant and content.


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## SimplyAmorous

zookeeper said:


> It's a shame that someone concerned with a partner's ability to earn a living is automatically labeled "gold digger."
> 
> Having a steady, healthy income is not just a means to the end of having more stuff. It is can also be an indicator of maturity, responsibility, reliability, ambition, drive and good decision making skills. Not a guarantee either way, but these are good indicators to look for. At the very least, a woman who gets involved with a financially successful man has fewer worries that she will end up supporting him while he sits on the couch getting fatter and playing video games.
> 
> Are there people out there that want a meal ticket? Sure. Does that mean that anyone who looks for someone who is financially successful is a money grabber? No way.
> 
> *If I were single and looking for a LTR, I would most certainly be looking for a woman who is reasonably successful financially. Not only for the reasons above, but so that I know I won't be limited in the life I want to live because she can't afford to participate unless I foot the bill. I'm very generous (often to a fault) but at this point in my life*


 You are most definitely one who cares about living a higher class lifestyle...nothing wrong with that.. I think it's good we can admit what is important to us & in a mate, not trying to hide it.. be compatible.. 

I never looked the way of the richer man.. as I wouldn't feel his equal.. even if I was a hard worker .. I wasn't what anyone would call "financially successful", didn't go to college & all that. 

I can honestly say I cared more about Love over lifestyle.. this does not mean, however.. that *work ethic* gets thrown out the window.. that is essential in a man, heck should be in a woman too!.... you do what you have to do to take care of your family.. it may not be all sunshine & roses.. might have to jump on the overtime at a lower paying Job if times are tough.... but still you get by.. I see *responsibility* in that.. 

I would be offended by the stereotype that just because someone doesn't bring home $100,000 a year - they don't have a "real Job".. there is a thread going right now with the wife saying this to her husband - like his contribution is worthless.. since she makes 4 times that.. It sure would suck to be married to someone like that !

Another reason it's probably best to stay in our own "class".. nothing worse than people looking down on you.


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## greenpearl

It's true that most people in this world are into a materialistic life style. It's depressing that you can't find a woman who you don't admire. 

I know a group of people who are not into materialism. They are happy living a simple life. But you won't find them appealing. 

The woman you are looking for is someone who has a spiritual background, but sexually she is not prudent. 

If you do want to look for a woman who is not materialistic, you have to stop being materialistic. Try joining a group who enjoys living a simple life, and try to impress women with your personalities. But do you have characters which are appealing to non materialistic women? Are you a kind man? A man who is mild? A man who respects women? A man who is considerate of others and affectionate of others?


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## southbound

RandomDude said:


> Women like you are like a dream SA, but its just not my reality. It hurts even to entertain the possibility that women like you exist bc I cant find them, especially not in this city for understandable reasons.
> 
> Im stuck here in this materialistic cesspool. Yet I cant adapt because I hold into idealism of love untainted by greed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree. SA is certainly the exception. I don't see too many around my neck of the woods like her. Wouldn't it be nice the majority of women were like SA and you just met an occasional woman who was not that way?

Of course, I suppose things change with each generation. What was common, average, and non-materialistic when i was a kid is considered pretty rock bottom these days. I'm the kind of guy that as long as I have a roof over my head that's warm in winter and cool in summer, some clothes, a vehicle, and food, I'm happy as a lark; however, most desire a little more in this day and time.


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## JukeboxHero

I'm just curious, @RandomDude; What happened to the 2 other women you were talking about in a thread 2-3 months ago? I recall one you had a relationship with but wanted to wait a few more months to have sex. And Another who was the fun and spicy girl that you met at work and wanted to take a chance with.


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## zookeeper

SimplyAmorous said:


> You are most definitely one who cares about living a higher class lifestyle...nothing wrong with that.. I think it's good we can admit what is important to us & in a mate, not trying to hide it.. be compatible..


You couldn't be more wrong, but I see that part of my response was truncated so that might explain it.

I have pretty meager needs. I recently bought my first brand new car in 20 years because it was the only way to qualify for my employer's new auto reimbursement plan. We live in a pretty small house. I mow my own lawn, repair everything myself, and can't remember the last time I failed to wear a pair of shoes until there was at least a single hole in both.

I'll spend money freely on others or when a real need arises. I'm no cheapskate, I just really am not that impressed with most of the junk I see in stores. My wife is from a different tribe...

My wife has been on this ride for a long time. I am OK with the fact that we have a large imbalance in financial/career success. I make good money and can afford for her to do what wants. We have built our lives together and there are reasons that she doesn't earn much money.

If I found myself dating again, I would not be interested in being a sugar daddy or hero. I would want a woman who can not only support herself but takes pride in her ability to do so. She doesn't have to make the kind of money I do, but she needs to WANT to make a contribution. I'll gladly pay for the expensive dinner and show, but I want her to insist that she pays for coffee and maybe the cab ride. 

My overall point is that those who make harsh judgements about others are often best served by looking at themselves first. It's great to know what you want and even better to be honest with others about your needs. There would be far fewer broken relationships if people were more upfront about what they really want. I just find the whole idea of blaming others for not meeting one's criteria to be a bit counterproductive. People are complex. We shortchange ourselves when we fail to truly seek understanding.


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## Hope1964

You keep talking about 'your city'. Why don't you get out of this horrible city then? Why don't you give up your wealth and strike out into uncharted territory? Live out of a winnebago or something. Set yourself free. Buy a yurt. And stop looking so hard for your ex wife's doppelganger. Stop looking at all and just live for a while.


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## RandomDude

Main reason I can't move is that my daughter is here, and I can't rob her of her mother, not to mention all her friends. If it wasn't for her, yes, I would sell and start anew. But that is not an option until she turns 18 or when she is ready to strike it out on her own.

@JukeboxHero

The one I was dating for a while was a country girl, and yes, she was the exception I mentioned; a total of 2 women out of thousands over the years. But we had other issues, race and sexual expectations. The latter being the dealbreaker. Still, after being remind how rare she truly was, I do regret ending things with her. Too late now however.

@southbound

Exactly, it gives me hope when I hear her thoughts but it also hurts because it reminds me of how hard it is to even find anyone like her.


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## Holland

Are you in IC RD? Honestly you live in the largest city in Oz and still can't find a woman, have you considered that you are a big part of the problem and not them? Are you being materialistic in the attractiveness dept? 

As for women in your age group wanting security, well what is wrong with that? With the average house price over $1mil of course women (and men) want financial security. But you still ignore the point about looking for a financial equal. We both know that to survive there it is a dual income lifestyle.

I think you are scared of women that are successful.


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## RandomDude

Of course I am a big part of the problem - I struggle to accept that I am to be valued by my income. As for this whole argument that women wanting money is the same as men wanting looks, the way I see it is this: Looks and personality are what the average men look for correct? These are subject to opinion, subject to one's individual tastes, and when one stands out, it overcomes the other, especially when it comes to personality over looks. Heck, right after all that I've seen now I'm happy as long as I can keep it up without having to close my eyes! And what does the average women in my city look for? Looks, personality, AND MONEY. Many men already accept that financial stability is important, but even the term financial stability means so DIFFERENT things to different people!

As for the average house price $1 mil? We got our first home during marriage for WELL under $1 mil and it was a spacious and modern home. Even when my income increased exponentially over the years the only problem we had there was dealing with racist bogans. Yes, the commute was longer, yes, it was out of the way and home to a few degenerates, yes our furniture was second hand. Yet how do you think our wealth grew? By spending? By needing Mercs and BMWs that only deteriorate in value over time? We made it our home, we saved, we invested, we struggled, we suffered, we succeeded, we prevailed, and we did it together. You know ex-wife didn't even argue about dividing our assets, and despite giving her the house and savings I don't mind helping her, I can afford it and she remains the mother of my child, I can't have her back with her parents or be forced to live a lifestyle that she's not accustomed to. This is how much I RESPECT her. And you know what? She hasn't asked any money from me, not then, not even now. She does ask for personal help, and I do, as she helps me in return as well.

You know during my divorce one poster mentioned something to me, that I should look back and appreciate the support that my wife has given me over the years to actually be able to SUCCEED out there financially. She HAD MY BACK and that I simply can not deny. And you know what? ALL I WANT is to be assured that whoever the fk I end up investing my love, my future, and many more years of my life with WILL have my back because YES - it IS the recipe for success. You think I could I perform and excel all those years ago before I achieved what I wanted to achieve if all I had to go home to was a nagging wife whining about me not earning enough? No way in hell. I did NOT achieve success alone.

And I don't care one bit about how much a woman earns. I don't even consider myself in that "class", I keep my feet firmly on the ground because I know I've been in the trenches and I know I maybe again. I don't need anymore money and I was the sole provider in marriage and I can be again. Furthermore I despise materialism how am I to justify to myself searching SPECIFICALLY for income level in the women I meet? Not to mention having such standards SEVERELY limits my pool of options.


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## Miss Independent

.


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## MrsAldi

Seriously, you need to get over your ex. 
Not all women in your city are after men with money. 
In fact not all women want to date some rich guy. 
Some people marry for love & money is just for food & a roof. 


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Holland

OK the *median* house price in your city is over $1mil, I don't understand what median actually is but either way it is quite an expensive city to live in. So why is it hard to understand that women (and men) need financial security? You say you don't want a wife at home wanting you to earn more money but you also don't want a woman that has equal financial assets/income.

You would not have to be valued by your income if you were meeting women that earn good money, of which there are plenty where you live.

What is it you do want? The past is the past, your ex is no longer your wife and there is no shortage of great women out there. Please leave them alone until you have your head worked out.


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## zookeeper

You seem to hold your ex wife in very high regard. Why did you divorce her?


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## RandomDude

Heck you know what... think I answered my own question. How to accept materialism? I can't.

Typing things out I realised something, there are two types of women in this world, one who looks for a successful man and the other who inspires her man to be successful. Looking back at ex-wife, looking at SimplyAmorous, looking at the wives of some other very lucky friends, I have to say they are the latter, and if I ask myself if I can compromise on anything less...

Marriage shattered me emotionally but it built me professionally forcing me to accept responsibility and driving me to achieve not because it was expected of me, but because I wanted to. I went to work both jobs giving it my best and I had no fear of a woman nagging me to death at home. I did it because I knew this woman loved me, and I wanted to provide her with the very best of me. Also the reason I succumbed to her demands and expectations in our sex life but that's another story. Regardless success in both professions allowed me to handle several departments at once later down my career.

Nah fk it, I can't accept it. Funny, smile is back on my face. I feel better.
Nope, not compromising. I know what I want.

Anyway guys, thanks for this, it's helped me find an answer.


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## RandomDude

Holland said:


> You would not have to be valued by your income if you were meeting women that earn good money, of which there are plenty where you live.


I don't care about how much a woman makes, more or less it means nothing to me, ZERO. I look straight at the type of woman she is, and I don't hold stereotypes about professions other, even though I might joke about it for humor's sake.

I simply do not have that standard! If I meet a "financial equal" and she is otherwise in every way compatible with me then THANK FKING GOD. But I'm not going to favor someone just because how much she makes.


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## RandomDude

zookeeper said:


> You seem to hold your ex wife in very high regard. Why did you divorce her?


Because we were immature.

As for reconciliation the damage is too much. But the respect remains as friends.


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## Miss Independent

.


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## RandomDude

Well pardon me if I ignore your comment


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## norajane

RandomDude said:


> Of course I am a big part of the problem - I struggle to accept that I am to be valued by my income.


Or do you struggle to accept you could be valued for anything other than your income? 



> And I don't care one bit about how much a woman earns. I don't even consider myself in that "class", I keep my feet firmly on the ground because I know I've been in the trenches and I know I maybe again. I don't need anymore money and I was the sole provider in marriage and I can be again. Furthermore I despise materialism how am I to justify to myself searching SPECIFICALLY for income level in the women I meet? Not to mention having such standards SEVERELY limits my pool of options.


You're entirely missing the point. It's not about her income and whether you need it. It's about the attributes a woman possesses who has achieved a certain level of success in her career and with her own income - those are all the same attributes you say you seek in a woman. A woman who doesn't need YOUR money because she is plenty comfortable on her own as it is. A woman who understands hard work and what it takes to succeed because she did it herself, too. A woman who can appreciate what you went through to get where you are, the long hours, the failures, the successes. A woman who is secure enough in her income that she isn't seeking a man based on his ability to provide, but on whether she likes him as a man and the quality of the relationship.


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## Miss Independent

.


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## RandomDude

I was valued for more than my income in the past and is it so wrong to desire to be valued for it again?

As for the attributes, yes, I get that, hence why I already mentioned that if I find someone who is a "financial equal" and is every other way compatible with me then YES! Where the hell is she? Oh, and speaking of compatibility you hold these women in too high a regard, as many also has set standards for men in regards to income and their own financial equal. Once again judging by wallets. They are NOT immune to this.

I can satisfy their standards now, but how about tomorrow? What happens if I sell?


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## norajane

All I hear you talking about is money and not anything about the things that you want to be valued for. What are those things? Maybe that would help clarify what kind of woman you are looking for. Can you describe that woman without using any references to money or income, financial matters and frugality? What kind of woman do you want as your partner, as your lover? What kind of future do you imagine with that woman?


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## RandomDude

Oh for the love of...

What I can offer a woman is something for people to discover, NOT for me to claim with my own words. I know what I can, and have brought into a relationship and I also know what I have brought into a relationship that I must not bring about again. I know who I am and the honey poured in my ears I do not need or wish to repeat using my own words. That makes me cringe. By that alone, you should get an idea of one attribute of who I am, whether you see that as a strength or weakness that is your opinion and yours alone.


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## southbound

EnjoliWoman said:


> Personally, I'm pretty solid middle class. I earn above the median but not enough to impress anyone. I may get bashed for this, BUT, I am not particularly interested in men who earn a lot less than me. Mostly because they aren't very interesting. They usually aren't curious about the world enough for my taste. I want someone who is interested in other cultures - traveling there and experiencing the food, the art, the history. And if travel isn't doable, still learning (whether reading or watching something) and trying new things and being open minded is important to me. And while there may be less wealthy men who earn much less and have those characteristics, they are usually the flightier artsy-fartsy type. I guess I'm looking for a down to earth guy with a little sophistication and that isn't a combination often found on a construction site doing manual labor. BUT if he were, his salary would not preclude him from being my partner if all of the other elements are there. Because at the end of the day, common interests lead to great conversation and cerebral stimulation is key to a good physical connection as well.


Well, points for honesty. Whew, I have to say, though, that wears me out just reading it. You mentioned "middle class" and "down to earth." I consider myself both of those, but I guess I'm stuck in the definition of those from my childhood.

I never, ever considered myself below middle class because I never had to worry about having money for food, clothing, shelter, or a vehicle. I guess my situation is unusual. I have a college degree make good money for my area, and am well respected, but I guess I don't act it. Everyone else in my profession in my area has the nice house, boats, campers, takes vacations, but I'm a guy who's happy just having the basics and listening to the birds chirp in my lawn. 

So, on paper, I'm in their category, but I don't care for the lifestyle. I'd be happier dating a woman who works the counter at Target and considers eating at Steak & Shake to be an enjoyable evening. 



RandomDude said:


> I don't care about how much a woman makes, more or less it means nothing to me, ZERO. I look straight at the type of woman she is, and I don't hold stereotypes about professions other, even though I might joke about it for humor's sake.
> 
> I simply do not have that standard! If I meet a "financial equal" and she is otherwise in every way compatible with me then THANK FKING GOD. But I'm not going to favor someone just because how much she makes.


I've always been that way as well. I want a good person with a compatible personality, one that clicks with me(I'm sure that sounds old fashioned). I never cared what a woman did for a living. I never once thought I'd be happier with a lawyer than I would a woman that worked at a grocery store. I couldn't care less about that.


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## RandomDude

Construction actually pays really well, the builders and contractors under them, they handle thousands and even millions worth of work. I deal with them regularly with my expansion projects. I don't know why people continue to look down on blue collar jobs, especially in my country some of the top builders earn even more than me. Also travel is doable by many with humble incomes, you may have to save and/or you may have to avoid five star hotels but it's not THAT expensive to travel that you need a 100k+ salary to actually do so. Ex-wife and I when we traveled also had our budget to adhere to especially in our earlier years but it never stopped us. Hell many of our friends and couples even travel together with backpacker's wages. People find a way, they always do. Money is nothing but a means to an end.

Even to this day when I travel I force hotels to price match with Expedia cause I'm a "cheapskate", but hey, I like a good deal. I don't throw money away, I manage it. Reminds me what my father said to me when young that it's not about always about how much you earn but how well you manage your finances.



southbound said:


> I've always been that way as well. I want a good person with a compatible personality, one that clicks with me(I'm sure that sounds old fashioned). I never cared what a woman did for a living. I never once thought I'd be happier with a lawyer than I would a woman that worked at a grocery store. I couldn't care less about that.


Aye, it simply makes no difference for me either.


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## EnjoliWoman

southbound said:


> Well, points for honesty. Whew, I have to say, though, that wears me out just reading it. You mentioned "middle class" and "down to earth." I consider myself both of those, but I guess I'm stuck in the definition of those from my childhood.
> 
> I never, ever considered myself below middle class because I never had to worry about having money for food, clothing, shelter, or a vehicle. I guess my situation is unusual. I have a college degree make good money for my area, and am well respected, but I guess I don't act it. Everyone else in my profession in my area has the nice house, boats, campers, takes vacations, but I'm a guy who's happy just having the basics and listening to the birds chirp in my lawn.
> 
> So, on paper, I'm in their category, but I don't care for the lifestyle. I'd be happier dating a woman who works the counter at Target and considers eating at Steak & Shake to be an enjoyable evening.


See, I don't need the nice house, boats or campers and on vacation I'm fine with a standard clean motel/hotel. I don't need a 5-star resort. What I DO want is someone curious about the world and willing to learn about it and explore it.

I would be brain dead working as a cashier. I need more intellectual challenge than that, so my mate needs to bring that, too. (And I'm NOT implying someone who is happy doing that is less than me or less intelligent - we just want different things.) That doesn't mean sophisticated philosophical discussions every night with a cigar and brandy.  For instance, I also love talking with a friend about his remodeling and how he's going to solve certain design challenges. It gets my mind going. I love to problem solve. 

As to dinners out, I'd rather cook myself than go to Steak & Shake (and it's healthier). If I can make it just as good as the restaurant, I'd rather do it and save the eating out for less often but higher end. I love trying little hole in the wall places with gourmet food and lots of character. And I love to entertain and chat with friends around the fire pit. I don't own anything designer that I didn't get on clearance and my car is used (2013) because financially I'd rather someone else take the depreciation hit for the first couple years. Even if I were rich, this would still be my lifestyle because I just can't see spending $300 on a purse or $500 on shoes.

So as I said, I'd rather not be the breadwinner because I don't earn a lot - but I'd like him to be my equal at least.


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## Middle of Everything

I say go to Queens and get a job at McDowell's. Dont tell anyone you have money. Oh and dont look in bars for nice women. They arent there.

p.s. Sorry I dont have any good advice for you, though I think you are getting some good advice from others.

p.p.s Joe Louis is the greatest damn boxer that ever lived. (Well maybe Rocky Marciano too)

p.p.p.s Hopefully someone gets my references and attempt at humor.


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## EllisRedding

Middle of Everything said:


> I say go to Queens and get a job at McDowell's. Dont tell anyone you have money. Oh and dont look in bars for nice women. They arent there.
> 
> p.s. Sorry I dont have any good advice for you, though I think you are getting some good advice from others.
> 
> p.p.s Joe Louis is the greatest damn boxer that ever lived. (Well maybe Rocky Marciano too)
> 
> p.p.p.s Hopefully someone gets my references and attempt at humor.


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## NextTimeAround

My experience with men and money is that as soon as you try to be sensitive to their financial situation, go cheap with them and maybe even go dutch for them, I'm then called a cheap date.

And then I notice how happy they are to spend money on other women. (One only needs to review many of my posts here.) So I'm convinced, based on my experience, that men like spending money and being a provider to a woman that he cares about. Well, I am certainly not going to stand in the way of that.

When I pull my wallet out, I am taking that pleasure away from him. And this is why he looks elsewhere whether dating other women or developing female friends on whom he can shower his (financial and otherwise) generosity on. 

And let's don't forget that men may marry not only for beauty; but also for social status -- whether by class or trading up in perceived "ethnic status." 

Sometimes, there's even intra-racism. I was watching the '90s film "Mississippi Marsala" (with Denzel Washington) about an East Indian family that moved Mississippi. the Indian daughter was painfully aware of the fact that she was considered a ****** by East Indian men.


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## southbound

EnjoliWoman said:


> See, I don't need the nice house, boats or campers and on vacation I'm fine with a standard clean motel/hotel. I don't need a 5-star resort. What I DO want is someone curious about the world and willing to learn about it and explore it.


Nothing wrong with that; everybody likes what they like. It just seems like everybody is like that these days in one form or another. There was a song years ago titled, "Where Have all the Average People Gone?" When I was a teen, if I had come in with a girlfriend and said, "Hey, I have a girlfriend who is curious about the world and want's to explore different cultures," everybody would probably have just looked at each other and thought, "Okaaaaay, he's got him a highfalutin gal." I'm not poking fun at you, I promise, I'm just trying to show how different I am.



EnjoliWoman said:


> I would be brain dead working as a cashier. I need more intellectual challenge than that, so my mate needs to bring that, too. (And I'm NOT implying someone who is happy doing that is less than me or less intelligent - we just want different things.) That doesn't mean sophisticated philosophical discussions every night with a cigar and brandy.  For instance, I also love talking with a friend about his remodeling and how he's going to solve certain design challenges. It gets my mind going. I love to problem solve.


I know several people who work directly with people everyday; their life is buzzing with people at work. When they are not at work, the last thing they want is to be around a lot of people. They like peace and quiet with a select few.

I may be in a similar situation with the intellectual stuff. I have to say, being intellectual after hours bores the soup out of me. I have a Master's degree and work in a job related to it. I desegregate data, triangulate assessments(sounds exciting doesn't it), interpret documents from the state department, and explore everything from author's purpose, animal ecosystems, to causes of World War II. I love that in it's place, but when I'm on my own time, I'm just average Joe who likes to eat a sloppy hamburger, watch a little tv in the evenings, and discuss something new that we noticed in an episode of The Andy Griffith show that we've seen for the hundredth time.

Intellect has it's place but sometimes the people I work with can tell some of the driest, intellectual jokes, and laugh like it's the best thing since sliced bread. I have to watch a few episodes of Larry the Cable Guy just to reset myself and return to my normalcy. 

And some people mention that they like a challenge. Personally, my job is challenging enough. Sometimes I think the Wal-Mart greeter seems like a nice job, seriously. I don't desire challenges in my off time. I'm hoping everything runs as smoothly as possible. I don't ever feel challenge-deprived. If anything, I like to see how many days of peace I can have in a row.



EnjoliWoman said:


> As to dinners out, I'd rather cook myself than go to Steak & Shake (and it's healthier). If I can make it just as good as the restaurant, I'd rather do it and save the eating out for less often but higher end. I love trying little hole in the wall places with gourmet food and lots of character. And I love to entertain and chat with friends around the fire pit.


I have no problem with that. I'm heavily into music, and it reminds me of a line from a Merle haggard song: "before microwave ovens, when a girl could still cook, and still would!" 



EnjoliWoman said:


> I don't own anything designer that I didn't get on clearance and my car is used (2013) because financially I'd rather someone else take the depreciation hit for the first couple years. Even if I were rich, this would still be my lifestyle because I just can't see spending $300 on a purse or $500 on shoes.


One of my vehicles is a 2000 model, and the other is a 2006, so I can safely say I have used vehicles as well. 

I guess my issue isn't so much that i think women are all gold diggers. If they come digging for gold with me, they won't find much, but it's just that common standards and expectations are so much higher than when I was a kid. I'm happy just being what a common man was 30 or 40 years ago. 

I mentioned that I am heavily into music(even in a local band) so let me bore you with a song that sums it up for me. I don't drink, but otherwise this song describes me well. The second one is the Haggard song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woWzNRIBEcI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgV4Gx6MtXk


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## EnjoliWoman

I think it's more difficult to be a 'common man' and earn a livable wage. Granted, most of my info comes from TV, but there seemed to be a time when a man could support a family of four by being a mailman or a milkman or a mechanic. Now to support a family of four, the mailman/milkman/mechanic's wife needs to work as well.

My job challenges aren't particularly intellectual - I know my product and I sell it. I like my coworkers and clients. At the end of the day I cook dinner, have some wine, and putter on projects or read. I watch some TV but not much. I'll flip channels to find a "This old House" or something of similar nature on HGTV, maybe History channel or National Geographic. Those shows make me restless!

I think Random can find a nice woman who doesn't have to have the latest greatest of everything. We are out there, even though some of us might be exhausting to talk to!   Sorry to thread hijack, @random!


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## southbound

EnjoliWoman said:


> I think it's more difficult to be a 'common man' and earn a livable wage. Granted, most of my info comes from TV, but there seemed to be a time when a man could support a family of four by being a mailman or a milkman or a mechanic. Now to support a family of four, the mailman/milkman/mechanic's wife needs to work as well.


When I talk about being a common man, I'm talking more about state of mind than occupation. If I were a millionaire, I'd still like Larry the Cable Guy, and I doubt I'd be touring Europe; however, I am lucky to live in an area where the cost of living is apparently cheaper than a lot of the country. Around here, mechanics and mailmen are considered great jobs. 

I have a relative that is a mailman. He gets a kick out of the fact that people act like a mailman is scraping rock bottom in other parts of the country, but around here, it's considered a good living. 

I have a cousin who runs his own mechanic shop at his home; he has the boats, campers, you name it. 

Last month, my electric bill was $55. I don't know exactly how that compares to other parts of the country, but I had a neighbor move here from TX, and he went on and on about the difference in electric bills were.


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## Wolf1974

This thread as convinced me that I have always been right that living middle class is the best. Happily a blue collar worker


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## EnjoliWoman

southbound said:


> When I talk about being a common man, I'm talking more about state of mind than occupation. If I were a millionaire, I'd still like Larry the Cable Guy, and I doubt I'd be touring Europe; however, I am lucky to live in an area where the cost of living is apparently cheaper than a lot of the country. Around here, mechanics and mailmen are considered great jobs.
> 
> I have a relative that is a mailman. He gets a kick out of the fact that people act like a mailman is scraping rock bottom in other parts of the country, but around here, it's considered a good living.
> 
> I have a cousin who runs his own mechanic shop at his home; he has the boats, campers, you name it.
> 
> Last month, my electric bill was $55. I don't know exactly how that compares to other parts of the country, but I had a neighbor move here from TX, and he went on and on about the difference in electric bills were.


For budgeting purposes, I have equal payment plans for electric and gas. Otherwise electric is high in summer/gas in winter. Average is $155 for 1500 sqft. for power; $65 for gas (hot water/heat) - for two.

The average home price for a 2br/3ba w/ garage on .25 acre lot is $178K here (in a nice area of town - can go under 100K for 'ghetto' and over 1M for 5K sq ft on a golf course). The average mail carrier earns between 30 and 40K a year. Not enough for the average $178K house.


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## southbound

EnjoliWoman said:


> For budgeting purposes, I have equal payment plans for electric and gas. Otherwise electric is high in summer/gas in winter. Average is $155 for 1500 sqft. for power; $65 for gas (hot water/heat) - for two.
> 
> The average home price for a 2br/3ba w/ garage on .25 acre lot is $178K here (in a nice area of town - can go under 100K for 'ghetto' and over 1M for 5K sq ft on a golf course). The average mail carrier earns between 30 and 40K a year. Not enough for the average $178K house.


Gee whiz! Around here, a three bedroom, 2 bath, 2 car garage is around $130,000, and I know a guy who bought a three bedroom, 2 bath, 2 car garage, with full basement on 17 acres for $145,000. The house was around 13 years old.


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## Holland

southbound said:


> Gee whiz! Around here, a three bedroom, 2 bath, 2 car garage is around $130,000, and I know a guy who bought a three bedroom, 2 bath, 2 car garage, with full basement on 17 acres for $145,000. The house was around 13 years old.


A very different world to here. It would be materialistic if in your area a potential partner said no, I will only live in a $400k house and I don't care how hard you have to work to get it for me.

Down here you cannot buy a house for much under a $mil. Our wages are higher but the cost of living is also much higher. So I can't see why it is materialistic for anyone to make sure their potential spouse can afford to live here. 

This Beach Box went for $285k recently. (about $210K USD) It is just a changing room for when people go to the beach.
http://www.domain.com.au/news/iconic-brighton-beach-box-sells-for-foreshore-record-of-2850000-20160130-gmhnal/


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## 2ntnuf

RD,


Seems to me it's possible you are getting what you don't want, because you aren't practicing what you preach.


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## southbound

Holland said:


> This Beach Box went for $285k recently. (about $210K USD) It is just a changing room for when people go to the beach.
> http://www.domain.com.au/news/iconic-brighton-beach-box-sells-for-foreshore-record-of-2850000-20160130-gmhnal/


I wouldn't give $10 for the entire lot, and i would feel like an idiot if I did.


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## Holland

southbound said:


> I wouldn't give $10 for the entire lot, and i would feel like an idiot if I did.


Yep fair enough, like I said we all live in different worlds. A friend of mine bought one and made over $100k on it. But I digress, just pointing out that if you live in an expensive place then looking for a partner that can afford the lifestyle is not materialism. It is all relative to where you live. 

Materialism is putting possessions above everything else.


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## RandomDude

Heh that beach box sells less than a parking SPOT in my city, but for that price you can get yourself a very comfortable home further inland. It's all affordable, it all comes down to lifestyle choices, and none can fault anyone for that. The issue I have with it however, is the fact that material profit enters the equation of choosing a spouse. Material profit for me, is through my own blood and sweat, not inherited, not given, not married into.

There is nothing wrong with wanting that beach box (lol), so work for it. Children do make it hard especially in early years but it's not forever. Many times you may have to make sacrifices in your lifestyle for the sake of your family but that is not forever either. People grow, and achieve both success and failure in their lives, companionship should be about how they grow together, not what they can earn from each other.


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## Holland

RandomDude said:


> Heh that beach box sells less than a parking SPOT in my city, but for that price you can get yourself a very comfortable home further inland. It's all affordable, it all comes down to lifestyle choices, and none can fault anyone for that. The issue I have with it however, is the fact that material profit enters the equation of choosing a spouse. Material profit for me, is through my own blood and sweat, not inherited, not given, not married into.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with wanting that beach box (lol), so work for it. Children do make it hard especially in early years but it's not forever. Many times you may have to make sacrifices in your lifestyle for the sake of your family but that is not forever either. People grow, and achieve both success and failure in their lives, companionship should be about how they grow together, not what they can earn from each other.


Ok all good and this is how so many people live (inc. me, my friends, peers, family) it is not some magic unicorn you are seeking. If you are not finding them then why? And don't say because all women are materialistic because it just isn't true. Why are you not meeting the right woman, that is the real question.


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## RandomDude

I never used the word all, as I have married a woman who was not materialistic, and I've also met several other women who have compatible financial mindsets. Almost all taken by the time I meet them. And the few who were single ended up incompatible; recent one was due to cultural issues that were too difficult to resolve. Another was due to sexual expectations and incompatible values of chastity.

Perhaps I simply do not know where to find them. Where do they all hang out? I have even volunteered and even then it's becoming seemingly impossible to find a non-material girl who's actually still single and compatible. Sometimes I feel like I'm cursed because I can't seem to have any luck when it comes to this.


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## southbound

Holland said:


> Yep fair enough, like I said we all live in different worlds. A friend of mine bought one and made over $100k on it. But I digress, just pointing out that if you live in an expensive place then looking for a partner that can afford the lifestyle is not materialism. It is all relative to where you live.
> 
> Materialism is putting possessions above everything else.


I agree; can't argue with that. It takes more money just to make ends meet and be common in some places. I get that, but materialism is the same everywhere. It's putting a great deal of importance on the extra material things that are available. 



RandomDude said:


> Perhaps I simply do not know where to find them. Where do they all hang out? I have even volunteered and even then it's becoming seemingly impossible to find a non-material girl who's actually still single and compatible. Sometimes I feel like I'm cursed because I can't seem to have any luck when it comes to this.


I really know where you are coming from. It's odd though, although you experience this in real life, and I understand completely, once you pose the situation, everybody knows tons of women like you are searching for. Heck, nobody is materialistic. All responders and their grandmother's are just the personality you want as well. Nobody has a clue what you're talking about; women like you want are everywhere. I'm with you, "where do they all hang out?"


----------



## Holland

RandomDude said:


> I never used the word all, as I have married a woman who was not materialistic, and I've also met several other women who have compatible financial mindsets. Almost all taken by the time I meet them. And the few who were single ended up incompatible; recent one was due to cultural issues that were too difficult to resolve. Another was due to sexual expectations and incompatible values of chastity.
> 
> Perhaps I simply do not know where to find them. Where do they all hang out? I have even volunteered and even then it's becoming seemingly impossible to find a non-material girl who's actually still single and compatible. Sometimes I feel like I'm cursed because I can't seem to have any luck when it comes to this.


You're not cursed RD. You are just in the post divorce dating scene which without a doubt is different than life before. So you have met a couple of women that were close to what you want but not in all areas. Keep dating and keep it light. The right woman will value you for who you are.


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## knobcreek

I've worked hard and have a nice house, my wife drives a nice car, but overall I have nothing, a Seiko watch, I shop at the outlet stores for sale items and drive a Honda Civic. I could get by fine on 1/8th of what I currently make. I could care less about material things, I enjoy experiences.

But I understand the OP, I always kinda felt bad for rich and famous people, it must be nearly impossible for them to find someone who actually likes them as the person, and not just for their money or fame.


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## Starstarfish

Maybe it's just the "not too short" perfect 10 looks department women who are more likely to be materialistic? I mean, at a certain point you might have to realize and accept that finding another woman exactly like your ex who checks all the right boxes might not happen. Because in the end, your ex wasn't perfect either, otherwise she wouldn't be your ex. 

The other thing to consider is lying to these women isn't right. You also have a child and assuming you are being honest about that they have to consider knowing up front that any income you have will be shared with an ex wife and a child, meaning that the resources for any children they might possibly want to have will be split with a pre-existing party. The fact is you can't just go out and have a clean slate now as if those things don't matter and aren't factors.


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## RandomDude

It's not as simple a solution as "stop dating the pretty girls"; All the best of what I've seen weren't even the prettiest, but they had qualities (such as non-materialism) that made me so attracted to them. There are a ton of women who I don't even consider all-that according to my taste yet they hold such insane material standards! Sometimes when friends ask for photos of whoever I'm dating at the time some of them already go "what? You really think she's that hot?" Then when these women show their material colors to me first thing that comes to my mind is "you have to be kidding me, you aren't exactly all-that and this is what you expect to find?" Still I let them go gracefully, I don't make a scene or try to hurt them. It's ridiculous actually, and it's really no wonder why many of them are single for years and I pity them. 

As for lying about my financial status, I simply don't reveal information that I don't need to reveal, and as I mentioned I don't exactly pose as a bum. The friends of mine with families (multiple children, and I only have ONE kid) don't earn even nearly as much as what seems to be expected in the dating scene, but they live comfortably and they are patient when attaining their luxuries.



southbound said:


> I really know where you are coming from. It's odd though, although you experience this in real life, and I understand completely, once you pose the situation, everybody knows tons of women like you are searching for. Heck, nobody is materialistic. All responders and their grandmother's are just the personality you want as well. Nobody has a clue what you're talking about; women like you want are everywhere. I'm with you, "where do they all hang out?"


YES! What the hell?! lol


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## Starstarfish

Wow. So sometimes you date women and feel like you are doing them a favor by doing so. Because they really aren't that hot and you pity them. I'm thinking they probably pick up on that. That's a mentality that's going to cause a problem even if you do find a "more perfect" girl. 

If you were a female poster saying you chose not to reveal certain information to potentially entrap a date, I'm thinking the reactions would be a lot worse. How is lying (directly or by omission) a better personal habit than materialism?


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## RandomDude

What? Seriously? Read carefully - I pity them for their standards that makes it very difficult for them to find a mate, not that I pity them for their looks and as I mentioned I do find them attractive to begin with, but they aren't bloody super models.

As for the deception complete transparency from the get go is not a luxury that I can afford. Why are they entitled to my financial details before our relationship reaches a point where it becomes necessary?
So should I go up to every date I meet and ask HER for her financial status? Why am I entitled to it? I'm not!


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## SimplyAmorous

zookeeper said:


> I have pretty meager needs. I recently bought my first brand new car in 20 years because it was the only way to qualify for my employer's new auto reimbursement plan. We live in a pretty small house. I mow my own lawn, repair everything myself, and can't remember the last time I failed to wear a pair of shoes until there was at least a single hole in both.
> 
> I'll spend money freely on others or when a real need arises. I'm no cheapskate, I just really am not that impressed with most of the junk I see in stores.


 Now this sounds more like us.. I can relate to your post.. I call myself cheap BUT that's because I "can't" waste money.... like Random Dude explained.. it's about managing it... when we want something.. the money is there... we have a large family (8 of us, 1 flew the nest, will be 2 in college this year).. still we would be considered Middle class for our area.... they have online calculators for this >>

Are you in the US middle class? Try our income calculator | Pew Research Center

We obviously live in a pretty depressed area.. we bought our house with 50 acres for $100,000 19 yrs ago... with a large 3 stall garage too.. its a beautiful piece of property... takes us 3 hours to do our lawn, another 2+ to weed wack ... I'd shutter if we had to pay someone to mow ours!! 

We've helped friends in need, we've taken kids's friends on Vacation with us, loading up our 9 seat Suburban... it's all about living life.. and enjoying it.. We want to make sure our kids experience Disney a couple times in their growing up yrs too...the cost for 7 of us at Magic Kingdom.. kinda crazy.. we hit 4 large parks in 7 days back in 2011... that was a good $1,000 plus right there -just to get in...but we only live once.. we'd never stay on Property though.... 



> *If I found myself dating again, I would not be interested in being a sugar daddy or hero*. I would want a woman who can not only support herself but takes pride in her ability to do so. She doesn't have to make the kind of money I do, but she needs to WANT to make a contribution. I'll gladly pay for the expensive dinner and show, but I want her to insist that she pays for coffee and maybe the cab ride.


 I don't think many Sugar Daddy's marry today.. they just want sex.. they call these women "Sugar Babies".. all sorts of websites where the Rich guy is seeking the Hot college girl ...then she gets her Tuition paid for.... is this really OK, it's a free world right.... doesn't this infiltrate who we are, our views, attitudes, what we make excuses for? ... I just shake my head.. people think nothing of using each other anymore, it's common place.... A growing list of these websites:

Reviews of SugarDaddyMeet.com - Our NO.1 Sugar Daddy Website



> My overall point is that those who make harsh judgements about others are often best served by looking at themselves first. It's great to know what you want and even better to be honest with others about your needs. There would be far fewer broken relationships if people were more upfront about what they really want. I just find the whole idea of blaming others for not meeting one's criteria to be a bit counterproductive. People are complex. We shortchange ourselves when we fail to truly seek understanding.


 Here is what I wanted when I started out.. nothing has changed 36 yrs later.. I'd still want the same things.. I wanted authentic love.. someone to grow old with.. someone who adored me (I am not stuck up in the least way.. I wanted to adore him too)...that loving & Cherishing... I love the spirit of the "vows"... I wanted to marry my best friend but also my Lover... I wanted to live in the country - I hate the city.. I'd feel like a caged animal there.. give me lush green grass, trees, I want to see some deer & turkeys outside my window.. be able to read a book under a tree hearing the birds chirping & have bonfires at night...this was my vision.. my hope of making a Life, a home... 

I wanted to build a family together.. I didn't care if we had the latest & the greatest....we could work on things together, I've helped my husband lay cement, pull shingles off the roof, change transmissions.. I get my hands dirty with him.... we could save for what we wanted.. our kids have never went without.. we've never had to take out a loan in our marriage -yet.. outside of our mortgage.. but you won't see our kids wearing designer clothes, and we prefer older vehicles so husband can still work on them...it's not just me saying this.. he feels this way also.. our last car, cost $2,000 used.. lasted us a good 10 yrs.. 

I found this poem many yrs ago.. liked it so much.. I stuffed it in one of my books...found it recently.. what I see today is.. we are pretty much living in a Fast food / "throw away " society.. I tend to think along these lines.. that's why I call myself more old fashioned..


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## RandomDude

Sugar babies...

:rofl:


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## 2ntnuf

You need to join an exclusive dating site for successful business owners. If there was such a thing. 

Mostly the folks who grew up in a poor family will be less materialistic. The problem is, what happens when they realize they can afford whatever they dreamed of as a child with little to no responsibility, after marrying a successful businessman? I think the chances of it going bad are great.

If you meet a woman who grew up in a wealthy family, she may feel entitled to whatever she wants because that's how her parents treated her. Like she deserved all the best of the best and did little to nothing for it, unlike the poor woman.

If you meet a woman who grew up in a relatively average home and had the drive and intelligence to succeed in business, you may find someone who understands you, can think like you, and will be as careful as you in the selection of a mate for life. 

Of course, looks are less important, but I think the way of the world will have forced that successful woman who worked her way up to naturally be easy on the eyes, have a good personality, and an ability to make herself dress well and look good to help her succeed. That does not mean she will show off her body. It means she will dress fashionably, coordinating her apparel, taking good care of her hair and skin, makeup and weight. 

They are out there. The more limitations you place on prospects, the less chance there is of finding one. Settling leads to divorce, though. Just be certain you aren't misjudging them.


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## southbound

SA, I used your calculator, and i was put in the High Income category; but I think it's only because I'm single. It sure doesn't feel like I'm in the high income bracket.

Again, these frugal women are everywhere except where guys are looking. I guess it's difficult to put into words what I'm saying. I'm probably looking at a little different angle than even RandomDude, but I certainly know where he's coming from. 

Let me give you an example of a conversation I had with a female co-worker. I live in an old farmhouse, and it's not fixed up, it's just livable. Sure, I might slap on a new coat of paint here and there if the notion hits, but the house is not my little project. I'm actually very happy living here; however, I realize most women would not be. the lady i was talking to knows how super happy I am here, and she said something like, "If you got a woman, your life would change. Then, every time I saw you, you'd be saying,
"we're remodeling the bathroom, we're putting down new carpet, or we're building on a new room, and it would all be because of her, because I know you are happy as it is."


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## john117

2ntnuf said:


> You need to join an exclusive dating site for successful business owners. If there was such a thing.


I thought it's called "staff" 😉



> Mostly the folks who grew up in a poor family will be less materialistic. The problem is, what happens when they realize they can afford whatever they dreamed of as a child with little to no responsibility, after marrying a successful businessman? I think the chances of it going bad are great..


I grew up poor despite both parents working. So no materialistic tendencies for me. My sinful earthly possessions are my bike, stereo, and camera equipment. My wife grew up 1% and can't fathom not being materialistic. Since she works and brings home a super sized paycheck she requires, ehem, adult supervision at times for spending. It's always landscaping or artwork, on occasion clothes.


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## RandomDude

2ntnuf, there are several agencies that I have been looking at, it's on average $3K for membership, less than recruitment fees I guess but I questioned whether throwing money at the problem would really make it go away - as I read several reviews in regards to the service provided and not only was the pool of candidates alot smaller than what was pitched to them upon signing the contract, the quality of dates was no different from any other dating site and the agency was also only legally entitled to provide ONE date. Not to mention complaints in regards to dates being rigged and drilled on what to say and how to act despite the contract stating confidentiality prior to the arranged dates.

Was like too much of a scam to me and I do not wish to encourage such business conduct so I voted with my wallet.


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## 2ntnuf

john117 said:


> I thought it's called "staff" 😉


I thought that was an infection? :grin2:

Don't date staff. They will become haughty and want to tell everyone what to do, usurping your authority in the belief that they know what you'd do if you were asked. 





john117 said:


> I grew up poor despite both parents working. So no materialistic tendencies for me. My sinful earthly possessions are my bike, stereo, and camera equipment. My wife grew up 1% and can't fathom not being materialistic. Since she works and brings home a super sized paycheck she requires, ehem, adult supervision at times for spending. It's always landscaping or artwork, on occasion clothes.


Yep. You had the drive and intelligence to make it. You are grounded because you know what it's like to be poor. Those who came from poor families and are successful tend to be in the minority. It's even tougher for them to succeed than the middle class, and there is a chance they won't have the refinement of a middle classer. (classer?  )

She started with more, so expects much more since she has become successful. If you and her cannot provide that, she will be bitter and feel like you aren't trying hard enough or don't value her enough.


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## RandomDude

southbound said:


> SA, I used your calculator, and i was put in the High Income category; but I think it's only because I'm single. It sure doesn't feel like I'm in the high income bracket.


Lol, we have the same problem here, it seems we tend to underestimate our incomes really. I was shocked actually when I entered my income in our local calculator here:

Tool that compares your income shows most Australians are out of touch

Funny how it goes "DO NOT DEDUCT TAX" lol


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## 2ntnuf

RandomDude said:


> 2ntnuf, there are several agencies that I have been looking at, it's on average $3K for membership, less than recruitment fees I guess but I questioned whether throwing money at the problem would really make it go away - as I read several reviews in regards to the service provided and not only was the pool of candidates alot smaller than what was pitched to them upon signing the contract, the quality of dates was no different from any other dating site and the agency was also only legally entitled to provide ONE date. Not to mention complaints in regards to dates being rigged and drilled on what to say and how to act despite the contract stating confidentiality prior to the arranged dates.
> 
> Was like too much of a scam to me and I do not wish to encourage such business conduct so I voted with my wallet.


Yeah, it's tough to write sarcasm. I wasn't really serious about that. Too easy to scam.

Though, if you were doing things that you like to do outside of work, things that you place value in and happen to meet some women doing whatever that group does, you may have a better chance of finding someone you are compatible with. 

That's what my first post in your thread meant. There have to be things that successful business folks do beside work and play? Giving your time to those in need or I don't know. Hell, I'm not in that class. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say here.

The rest of my post was serious. Sorry about that.


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## RandomDude

Heh, as I mentioned I have met some, just stars aren't aligning as we ended up incompatible for other reasons, most of it because they were well - TAKEN lol


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## staarz21

Sounds to me that you're still stuck on your ex (and your paycheck). There are plenty of women out there that aren't what you're describing. At all. Not even close. You're trying to find your ex in another woman, and it's not going to happen. 

Take a step back. Stop trying to date. Stop comparing everyone to your ex. She used you. You don't want that again, it's understandable. Unfortunately, you're probably throwing away perfectly good women due to your fear. 

Go to counseling, if you're not already. Don't date until you can stop thinking about your ex.


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## 2ntnuf

RandomDude said:


> Heh, as I mentioned I have met some, just stars aren't aligning as we ended up incompatible for other reasons, most of it because they were well - TAKEN lol


Well, that proves you are doing the right things. And, there are lots of men out there who are looking for the same things in a woman, but few women who fit the bill. 

Expand your search by doing a greater variety of those things where you have met those women who are compatible in many ways, except being single.


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## 2ntnuf

staarz21 said:


> Sounds to me that you're still stuck on your ex (and your paycheck). There are plenty of women out there that aren't what you're describing. At all. Not even close. You're trying to find your ex in another woman, and it's not going to happen.
> 
> Take a step back. Stop trying to date. Stop comparing everyone to your ex. She used you. You don't want that again, it's understandable. Unfortunately, you're probably throwing away perfectly good women due to your fear.
> 
> Go to counseling, if you're not already. Don't date until you can stop thinking about your ex.


I'm sorry. I'm not picking on you. This is pretty much what many of the women in this thread are saying. I don't believe this.

Yes, in general, he can find women who would be reasonably compatible in a general sense. He doesn't want that. It's too risky for him.

And, there are women who would be a very close match, not soul-mates, because there are none, but those very few who are a extremely compatible. Yeah, he's put himself under great limitations, but it's his life and he deserves a chance to find what he wants, not what everyone else thinks he needs. 

I do agree that he tends to measure women against his ex and that is bad in some ways. It's also good if he says he doesn't want a woman who treats him poorly and uses what he learned with her to measure prospects. It also isn't bad if he uses what he learned about her that was good to measure prospects. 

We all tend to do that. Yes, I used the word all. Those who had a bad marriage will judge prospects against the evil husband or wife. Nothing really wrong with that, as long as that ex was truly evil. As long as the "good" spouse isn't delusional about what happened. 

I don't see RD as delusional, just careful and maybe really hurt. If he does go to counseling, I'd think it would be to learn how to open up and trust, but with careful consideration beforehand. I actually think he is doing that, but he may be too careful. Can anyone who has been hurt so fully blame him? I can't. 

Sorry staarz. I had to get that out. Nothing personal. It's just frustration. I guess.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

southbound said:


> SA, I used your calculator, and i was put in the High Income category; but I think it's only because I'm single. It sure doesn't feel like I'm in the high income bracket.


 I tested one of those calculators with our son's income (He is single too) ...he's getting a lot of overtime but doesn't make good money ..... even he came out lower middle class..(it was a different calculator that gave a bar on where you rate in the lower / middle / High categories... we were *Lower* on the middle scale with our family size.. 

Good thing these calculators give states & areas though.. as what some of us make in our area would be very very low in another area, we'e be looked upon as paupers.....I didn't test what our results would be in a affluent high class city for example...we live where the Amish Dutch are.. so it makes sense.. things are pretty laid back...



> Let me give you an example of a conversation I had with a female co-worker. I live in an old farmhouse, and it's not fixed up, it's just livable. Sure, I might slap on a new coat of paint here and there if the notion hits, but the house is not my little project. I'm actually very happy living here; however, I realize most women would not be. the lady i was talking to knows how super happy I am here, and she said something like, "If you got a woman, your life would change. Then, every time I saw you, you'd be saying,
> "we're remodeling the bathroom, we're putting down new carpet, or we're building on a new room, and it would all be because of her, because I know you are happy as it is."


I think your lady friend is right .. even I would do that.. not the adding on though.....a large farmhouse has enough room in it.. but taking a room & spiffying it up adding it it's "homey country appeal".. oh yeah... women are good for that...we can't help it .. it's in our DNA..  

We had 2 older gentleman/ brothers who used to live across the yard from us when we were 1st married.... they were perfectly content even though their shack was ready to fall over, hadn't changed curtains in probably 30 yrs.. I don't know...everything was terribly outdated.. it was like walking into an antique shop but not as cheery.... but yeah... I laughed a little about it.. thinking "That's men for ya!!".. gotta love 'em though.. but I also think that's why some men need a woman.. even if they don't think they do.. 

But I know.. I know Southbound.. there are exceptions, you are one.. 

It's just that some of us would try to bring those changes a little more slowly... taking our time.. shopping for the best deals to brighten up the atmosphere.... Take me for instance...I wanted a newer look for our Kitchen... so I took every door off the hinges, sanded them all down...and re-painted them, adding some white to the design... good enough!... wouldn't be into turning the house upside down -with contractors & such...

Though we've hired out for a couple projects we couldn't do.. like opening up a kitchen wall so we could see the stairs going up...adding a couple windows to let the sun shine down ..it was too dark in there...this was a major improvement ..and we paid big bucks for a new retaining wall a few yrs back.... if that wasn't done right...we'd be dealing with a muddy porch and basement flooding for many years to come..


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## staarz21

Are you looking outside your city? Maybe drive further out (possibly where you might want to move one day). Maybe getting away from the city, you can find someone who is more your taste.


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## RandomDude

I volunteer when I have time because I know my contributions help to limit the amount of animals being put down when unable to find a home, although I contribute financially the best gift I can give them is myself, to socialise the animals because it is the non-socialised ones that get put down first. I have a way with them and it's one of my gifts. I do not do it to meet women but to contribute to where my heart lies. As for my other hobbies, I take my boat out whenever the weather isn't so horrible as it is now, with my cute little navigator at my side to keep daddy from doing silly things. I also take to the skies on my hang glider. I have my hobbies and I love my lifestyle, doesn't seem to increase my chances at all.

But I didn't meet my recent prospects from there. The recent ones; one was offline, random while shopping for new shoes and the other was online. But hey, incompatible in other areas but those dates ended well on always a good note. The bad notes are when money gets into the equation, like when I had to leave ex-gf behind because I knew I did not trust her due to her materialism and already she was placing very high material expectations on me - she was ALOT better when we were just friends with benefits.

Guess in a way, she was my sugar baby, my mistake was thinking she could be anything more.



staarz21 said:


> Are you looking outside your city? Maybe drive further out (possibly where you might want to move one day). Maybe getting away from the city, you can find someone who is more your taste.


Distance relationships... well, at this point I may have to consider that, I don't know.

I'm dropping standards one by one, another issue I have is that I struggle to see how I can put up with anyone else's kids either than my own. However I've done work on that and recently become more open to it now.


----------



## staarz21

2ntnuf said:


> I'm sorry. I'm not picking on you. This is pretty much what many of the women in this thread are saying. I don't believe this.
> 
> Yes, in general, he can find women who would be reasonably compatible in a general sense. He doesn't want that. It's too risky for him.
> 
> And, there are women who would be a very close match, not soul-mates, because there are none, but those very few who are a extremely compatible. Yeah, he's put himself under great limitations, but it's his life and he deserves a chance to find what he wants, not what everyone else thinks he needs.
> 
> I do agree that he tends to measure women against his ex and that is bad in some ways. It's also good if he says he doesn't want a woman who treats him poorly and uses what he learned with her to measure prospects. It also isn't bad if he uses what he learned about her that was good to measure prospects.
> 
> We all tend to do that. Yes, I used the word all. Those who had a bad marriage will judge prospects against the evil husband or wife. Nothing really wrong with that, as long as that ex was truly evil. As long as the "good" spouse isn't delusional about what happened.
> 
> I don't see RD as delusional, just careful and maybe really hurt. If he does go to counseling, I'd think it would be to learn how to open up and trust, but with careful consideration beforehand. I actually think he is doing that, but he may be too careful. Can anyone who has been hurt so fully blame him? I can't.
> 
> Sorry staarz. I had to get that out. Nothing personal. It's just frustration. I guess.



No offense. I actually am confused on what you're frustrated about. Is it because I think there are women out there that aren't worried about money? It seems we agree on most everything else from your post. Sorry, I haven't had any coffee yet this morning so I may be misreading or not understanding. :grin2:

I know people compare past relationships. It's learned experience to help keep us from making repeat mistakes. In RD's case though, I think he's forgetting what his ex put him through. Maybe not forgetting, but definitely minimizing. He was miserable. I know a bit of time has passed since then, but it sounds like he has almost like a "greener grass" thing going on. In some posts, it sounds as though he would have wanted her back. I mean that he thought it was bad with his W then, but now it's bad because she's gone. Good qualities of his ex are outweighing the bad qualities after all of this time - at least, that's how he's portraying it here. They divorced for a reason. 

That's all fine, if that's what he wants. However, he's here talking about how women are after his money. I don't believe there aren't any reasonable women out there, because I know there are. I am one. Several women here are. We're just not high maintenance, 10s. We're average women who are okay with little to nothing in regards to "stuff". 

He could be looking in the wrong place, or going after women who lived a high maintenance life, or comparing way too much to his ex. No one is going to match her exactly, hopefully since she wasn't exactly good for him. 

He's made his pool very, very small. That's completely fine. It's just going to take a lot of time to find that one that fits his bill. Not a bad thing, but he needs patience for that. 

Sorry if I didn't address what you meant, I agree with most of what you said, though.


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## RandomDude

Have her back? Errr no, she falls in the same category as the other non-material women that I've dated and deemed incompatible. Do I use her as a standard? Of course, she's the easiest example as I know her the longest.

I'm living in the wrong place, that's what it seems to come down to, in a city where women who appreciate a man for who he is and not much he earns has become a rarity and an idealistic dream that others tell me I should squish and surrender to the acceptance that the value of men comes down to the size of his wallet.


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## always_alone

RD, you are a particular guy who wants very particular things, and so of course it is going to take a while to find what you want.

Putting down your dates as "not all that" is probably not going to help you get there. 

And what others are telling you about looks and choices, and opening your eyes to wider possibilities is worth thinking about. The type of woman you are looking for is very often the type of women that is completely overlooked as a prospect.

I've seen it over and over again. Recently I was talking to a male friend of mine who had just ended his marriage. He was bemoaning his inability to find lasting love. I've known this guy for decades, and the truth is, he always goes for high drama, narcissistic women. He doesn't even see the down-to-earth grounded ones. He chases after the "fun" and then wonders why she is so high maintenance.

It's like, dude, open your eyes and change your strategy.


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## RandomDude

The most promising date that I had recently was a woman who clicked in almost every way possible, however we had issues with sexual expectations and values of chastity. I was not patient with her as she made it clear she believes in love and commitment before sex, where I believed that sexual compatibility should be determined along with love and prior to commitment. Neither of us could reach a compromise.

I do feel like an idiot for overlooking her now, but at the same time, even if we tried again, there's just no solution to our problem! I'm set in my ways and she is too. That's why it gets frustrating!!!

ALMOST!









BAAAAAAH! :banghead:


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## 2ntnuf

staarz21 said:


> No offense. I actually am confused on what you're frustrated about. Is it because I think there are women out there that aren't worried about money? It seems we agree on most everything else from your post. Sorry, I haven't had any coffee yet this morning so I may be misreading or not understanding. :grin2:
> ...snip...



I think what he is being told is to give up on what he wants so he can find a wife. While I agree he is limiting himself and may have some overly strict standards, I certainly can understand that he doesn't want to give those up, unless it's absolutely necessary. 

I think I understand why, as well.

He has admitted he is limiting himself and is slowly working through all of that with some success. I think he is doing well.

He isn't lacking a dating life. He is getting out. He is spending time with his daughter. He works. He volunteers his time and money.

Seems all good to me. Sounds like a catch for many women. It's up to him to sort through all the women who may cross his path. If he gives up most of his standards, he'll likely be sorry. I think he just needs help in where else to look to expand the pool of available women. I don't think he is selfish, at all.


----------



## RandomDude

Heck sometimes I can't even believe I gave a woman like this a chance:









https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNSUOFgj97M

Lol... 

Anyway on a serious note, nah, I think even if I am to accept the materialism in my city like other guys, eventually there will come a time that my resentment towards her will come out, and force me into situations like having to choose whether to lead on ex-gf or dump her two days away from Valentine's day... which wasn't one of my prouder moments =/

As for finding out where the heck to find em? WHERE!?

Wait... maybe I should resort to the one thing that brings everyone together, the cause and solution of all of life's problems!!










 ... but I don't drink anymore... =/

Wait... church! 










Erm, no not again... ex was Christian

What to do ey?


----------



## soccermom2three

RD, how do you know these women are materialistic? Are they straight up asking you how much you make or how much is in your bank account? Are they asking you to buy them expensive gifts? I guess I don't understand how you are coming to that conclusion.

Personally I don't begrudge a woman or a man wanting to know if the person they're dating has their financial life together. Steady job, hard worker, good with money. This may sound harsh, jaded, too practical, whatever, but love alone doesn't pay the bills. There has to be the whole package. Too be honest, I don't understand people that marry train wrecks when it comes to losing jobs and just being plain lazy. I've watched two friends do it and they were divorced within a few years, (thankfully there were no kids). Getting your electricity turned off or having a spouse sit on the couch all day while you work your ass off kills all the love that may have been there at the beginning so yeah, vetting a potential mate is important. 

I've tried to teach my daughter (21) that she needs to be able to take care of herself but at the same time she needs to make sure that her future husband has his stuff together too.


----------



## greenpearl

People who blame others for their problems can never fix their problems. 

A couple of years ago, I told you to seek wisdom. 

Today you are still lost here.

Keep on blaming others, keep on blaming the world instead of examining yourself. 

You will have little chance fixing your problems. 

Again, I see that money is bringing some people misery instead of happiness.


----------



## RandomDude

Soccermom,



> When I do hide my financial status with prospective dates I don't exactly pose as a bum. I do omit information that need not be shared, however I do share my role and some of my responsibilities, I also share stories that are commonplace in my line of work. The impression I like them to have, is of a simple, humble, man who enjoys his work, is financially stable and able to carry his own weight, with enough to spare. These are the standards that even I, myself, as a father, hold for my future son-in-law.
> 
> Yet these standards fall short of the standards set by the women where I live, as a six figure salary is the bare minimum here for what they consider "long term potential". The reason for this is the very high cost of living. In early marriage before my business was more established I also had to purchase property far from the vicinity of the major developed areas due to extortionate prices of real estate. My wife did not mind at the time, the women I've met after her - consider that a dealbreaker, as they wish to purchase property in a "reputable" and "convenient" location, with prices in the millions. Some also insisted that when they get married they do not wish to own second hand goods, which they had when growing up. They do not wish to be frugal.


In addition, it's not very difficult for me to hide my assets, I don't own a beach house and I drive the same car I've driven since marriage. I also make it very clear that I am not financially motivated. And that's when it starts, similar arguments to what has already been shared in this topic. Standards of lifestyle and limits in terms of sacrifice. How much would they be happy with, etc etc. And knowing that I was THAT man, and that she could not love that man when he was only a seed financially, I ask myself -> how can she possibly love the man that he has become? 

My ex-GF I was actually straight up with too, and she straight up told me lol, she was very honest which I do respect her for - she made it very clear to me that financial capability in a man is one of her priorities, heck it even turns her on! I accepted it, I thought over time, I could come to understand her, and I did, but I ended up disagreeing with her in the end. The major red flag towards the end was her financial dreams and trying to get me to finance her ambitions when I remember in the past I had to STRUGGLE to secure investors. If she's not willing to take that struggle how could she possibly handle the struggle of maintaining her business during the downtimes without me? Also, WTF? Sugarbaby much?

With the recent girl who I dated who did impress me, I did loosen up on the tests, but even without the test, she was actually turned OFF by my extravagance - which I thought was my A game (I just came out of a year of a celibacy so I was very rusty and didn't know what I was doing). She actually tested me on our third date, to see if I was all talk in regards to our shared compassion for animals, my appreciation for the simple joys of life and if I was the non-material man I said I was - she was actually interested in the things that I actually wanted to be valued for. Ex-gf and other girls sure as hell didn't do that. Was like a completely different world.

So hey, I don't think I'm being too inaccurate with my conclusions about the type of women I am meeting.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

RandomDude said:


> The most promising date that I had recently was a woman who clicked in almost every way possible, however we had issues with sexual expectations and values of chastity. *I was not patient with her as she made it clear she believes in love and commitment before sex, where I believed that sexual compatibility should be determined along with love and prior to commitment. Neither of us could reach a compromise.*
> 
> I do feel like an idiot for overlooking her now, but at the same time, even if we tried again, there's just no solution to our problem! I'm set in my ways and she is too. That's why it gets frustrating!!!
> 
> ALMOST!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BAAAAAAH! :banghead:


You know what I find really funny about this.. you and her may differ in a different area & bonked heads, couldn't get past your idealistic areas.. but you SHOULD understand each other none the less.. that woman doesn't want "used for her body" -that's precious to her , she was holding on to the a vision of how it's supposed to play out, in her eyes, how a gentleman is supposed to treat the woman he wants above all.. Either the man is on board or he's not.. 

Similar to you...you have *idealistic expectations* when it comes to making darn sure the woman is totally 100% INTO YOU.. that it's not a hint about your wallet, or what you bring financially / that lifestyle... it is VERY VERY IMPORTANT TO YOU to know she will stick beside you even if you'd hit rock bottom... 

Us Romantics feel this way too.. it's just in another area...we know what many guys are after & will say anything to get it.. just as there are women who suddenly find a man a Bigger Better catch & would be crawling all over him learning what he makes for a living.. but didn't pay him no attention if he was the "average Joe" earner...

There was this Documentary, the "Science of Attraction" or something like that (?)...Deejo put it on here yrs ago.. I watched it... interviewing on the streets.. showed this very clearly.. how the sex rank GOES UP once they learn what a man makes.. even if he had a lower score earlier ... it was very telling..


----------



## RandomDude

Agreed, now I'm in the process of trying to figure out how to get her back, it's been four months, we left on a good note but we dropped contact.

I WAS AN IDIOT TO LET HER GO


----------



## NextTimeAround

SimplyAmorous said:


> There was this Documentary, the "Science of Attraction" or something like that (?)...Deejo put it on here yrs ago.. I watched it... interviewing on the streets.. showed this very clearly.. how the sex rank GOES UP once they learn what a man makes.. even if he had a lower score earlier ... it was very telling..


OTOH, I was able to tell when a guy was really interested..... because he would very explicit about what he does for a living or even tell me how much money he makes.

My husband told me when we met that he was a lawyer for a multinational. HE could have just told me that he simply worked for that company and leave me to wonder whether he was someone's marketing assistant. 

And I can think of a couple of times when the guy told me how much money he made.

There are men who are gold digging women. Before I met my husband I dated a guy who was making 6 figures. Never married, no kids, ergo no dependents. he wanted to move in with me and according to him he could pay me something towards the rent and then I could make a lot of money. I often wondered what his experience with women was before. 

I made considerably less then he did. I think women really need to learn to protect themselves. A lot of guys throw around the M word and expect women will put out (either sexually or financially, my case he was more interested in the financial) because the promise of marriage is treated like some future payback.


----------



## WorkingWife

RandomDude said:


> Yet I can't let go of the feeling of being loved for who I am and not how much I made. I feel disgusted with the revelations that my wealth contributes to my attractiveness when it's the last thing I wish to be valued for. This idealism is not realistic and unhealthy if I am to get involved with any woman either than my ex.
> 
> If I continue like this, it's just never going to happen. How do I accept materialism? How do I stop comparing women to my ex?


I haven't read the entire thread yet so maybe this has alredy been covered but two things come to mind.

1. Stop calling it "materialism" - what you're describing in these women sounds to me like a desire for security and stability in their lives, not "materialism" - materialism is a love of things. Are they trying to get you to buy them expensive things? Or are they just saying "I dream of having a family and am not going to get serious with a man who can't support a family." 

If it's the latter, that's not them loving you FOR your money, that's them not being willing to give their heart to someone financially unstable. (Which is what I did and I really wish I'd been as smart as they are now.)

2. You say you want to be loved for "who you are." What kind of work you do, what holds your interest for a career, how much time you devote to work, your level of ambition, your spending habits, generosity or frugality - that all IS part of who you are that a person falls in love with.

I don't know what you do for a living, but if women want you for your earning power you are clearly a different type of person than someone who is content to work at a gas station or be a line cook for life.

MY ADVICE
If you don't want a shallow gold digger, I would not disclose how much you make if it's a lot. I would not spend lavishly while dating. I would watch out for women who try to get you to buy them things or seem hyper focused on "stuff" and projecting an image that they are well off. When the woman says she wants to be a stay at home mom and it's important to her that her future husband can support her, ask yourself if that's what you want too. If not, maybe look for someone else. 

Maybe the real problem is that you don't want to support a wife and family but instead of admitting that and fishing in a different pool, you're deciding women who do want that are materialistic.


----------



## RandomDude

Guess I'm just an idealist, just like my recent date who I stopped dating cause she wouldn't put out.

Anyway guys, I'm good now, thanks for this discussion, it's been a sh-t ton of help. I now know what I have to do.


----------



## southbound

SimplyAmorous said:


> We had 2 older gentleman/ brothers who used to live across the yard from us when we were 1st married.... they were perfectly content even though their shack was ready to fall over, hadn't changed curtains in probably 30 yrs.. I don't know...everything was terribly outdated.. it was like walking into an antique shop but not as cheery.... but yeah... I laughed a little about it.. thinking "That's men for ya!!".. gotta love 'em though.. but I also think that's why some men need a woman.. even if they don't think they do..


It is interesting as to how much of the surroundings and activities are headed by the woman in a relationship. I know some single guys, and their living environment and lifestyle is nothing like the married guys.


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## phazari

It's not an attractiveness thing. It's a security thing. You wouldn't date someone who made minimum wage and couldn't at least pay half of the monthly mortgage/rent, right? They don't want to have to deal with someone who could throw their own finances into disarray.

And get over your wealthy ex. Most women don't have a throbbing trust fund to fall back on.


----------



## NextTimeAround

phazari said:


> It's not an attractiveness thing. It's a security thing. You wouldn't date someone who made minimum wage and couldn't at least pay half of the monthly mortgage/rent, right? They don't want to have to deal with someone who could throw their own finances into disarray.
> 
> *And get over your wealthy ex. Most women don't have a throbbing trust fund to fall back on*.


I think this the problem. He has not found anyone he loves.

And may also think that rich socialites are a dime a dozen.

I would not last long with a guy who wants everything 50/50. Whether they are upfront about it or by stealth like the other guy I mentioned dating.

When I finally made it clear to my (future) husband that I would no longer be exclusive with him if he needed to keep his friend around, he changed immediately, including his nickleing and diming tendencies with me.

Random Dude, what are you ideally looking for? A partner who pulls out the calculator each time and neither of you pays a penny more than the other?


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## southbound

phazari said:


> It's not an attractiveness thing. It's a security thing. You wouldn't date someone who made minimum wage and couldn't at least pay half of the monthly mortgage/rent, right? They don't want to have to deal with someone who could throw their own finances into disarray.
> 
> And get over your wealthy ex. Most women don't have a throbbing trust fund to fall back on.


I would date someone who made minimum wage. For me, it's always been about the person and their character. Maybe it's because that's how I was raised and because I live in a rural area. 

I couldn't care less what a woman made. If she did make minimum wage, obviously we wouldn't live the high life, but if she was satisfied with living the life that fit our income, I'd be fine with that.

I am acquainted with a man who owns a bank in our area. He's cheated on his wife in time, and pulled a few shady deals. Someone made the comment one time that on one hand, people think he's a big deal, but on the other hand, he's nothing when it comes to being a person of character.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

phazari said:


> It's not an attractiveness thing. It's a security thing. You wouldn't date someone who made minimum wage and couldn't at least pay half of the monthly mortgage/rent, right? They don't want to have to deal with someone who could throw their own finances into disarray.


 I think if one hears another only makes minimum wage.. given they are older, anyway.. they come off lazy, slackers, low class, must lack intelligence for sure ..... that sort of thing...

I can understand a woman questioning if a man hasn't TRIED to move up - aiming for a better future in some way... but then I would also look at *the whole picture*..

My husband's had a really GOOD Job for the last 18 yrs, considering where he started when we met...given where we live.. lots of unemployment.. it's very hard to find a Living wage here unless you are lucky.. or have a worthy college education (many seem near worthless to me these days)....

IF he got laid off tomorrow & took a significant pay cut (or another man for that matter)...would I hold that against him... [email protected]#... that is a small snapshot of his life, where he is RIGHT NOW...

I think circumstances matter to....to why someone is where they are.. We drive older cars... but we've had our house paid off since before we had our last son... because we manage our money so well.. 

*I am not sure how many women LOOK at money management AS MUCH as what a man Earns..*...this doesn't seem to enter into these discussions very much...which always baffles me.. that's a huge part of it. Some people APPEAR like they have it all.. but are living in huge debt to keep up appearances, it's all a LIE even.... that is far worse [email protected]#

I started a new Job... I make double minimum wage.. one doesn't need a college education for the work I do...I'm part time & since I don't get benefits there (which are Killer good).. I make more an hour over what the full time employees do ... there was this one man there.. he's got 3 kids... works lots of overtime.. been at that job for many years now.. kids our age.. his wife works too but he's the one who carries the benefits for the family.... 

I could see some women thinking lower of him.. not a catch in any way...like he wasn't ambitious enough.. but I thought he was a GREAT GUY ....responsible, hard worker... taking care of his family.. owns his own home.. I mean.. we've had some discussions with his training me.. why he works there.. he really Cares about the people...he enjoys this sort of work.. I felt he had a GOOD HEART.... (that character @southbound spoke of -for even wanting to do the kind of work we are in).. 

Me personally, how do I say this.... I am more there for the higher pay, and love the Grave-night shift, its the hrs I love... not so much because I want to work with the handicapped.. so not sure what that says about me! 

So yeah.. it comes back to the whole picture for me.. looking at circumstances too - to why someone is where they are.. and if they can build a life, a responsible one, on that income.. if a couple can do it together... I would not turn my nose up to a Garbage collector -if I lost my husband tomorrow.. 
Now if he drank, smoked, did weed & partied.. I would.. (that is lifestyle too)... I also would if he wasted his money .... had nothing to show for his hard work over a long period of time..

Those are things I personally look at not being a materialistic type so much...but like anyone else.. when I want something.. I WANT IT... I would think nothing of blowing hundreds on a Rock concert, our vacations, if I wanted a new SLR.. things like that.. you gotta live.. and have some hobbies to throw your money into too....besides just staying afloat.

@southbound said: 



> I would date someone who made minimum wage. For me, it's always been about the person and their character. Maybe it's because that's how I was raised and because I live in a rural area.
> 
> I couldn't care less what a woman made. If she did make minimum wage, obviously we wouldn't live the high life, but if she was satisfied with living the life that fit our income, I'd be fine with that.
> 
> I am acquainted with a man who owns a bank in our area. He's cheated on his wife in time, and pulled a few shady deals. Someone made the comment one time that on one hand, people think he's a big deal, but on the other hand, he's nothing when it comes to being a person of character.


 What is character to an individual..not sure everyone would answer the same on that ....what we see so often today is people being swept away by "success"...ambition... this often overlooks what a person is really made of, we excuse their narcissism somehow.. (look at Donald Trump!)... we throw away the Ben Carsons & praise the Trumps.. The world has gone Mad.. but really it always was. 

I am thankful many men (but certainly not all) are wired a little different over women on this one....even with this being Southbounds post.. who is very content to remain alone... a romantic he is not.. though Random Dude.. I haven't quite figured him out yet ! He goes back & forth, he's still trying to fill some sort of void that he thinks alludes him for whatever reason. 

Here is the DEAL.. we all want happiness...right?.... what is happiness??... is it always tied to achieving some measure of success according to the world's standards.. God help us in America!! ...or is this a chasing after the wind, as it says in Ecclesiastes ..


I offer this post I did a while back taken from my ...  What gives your Life Meaning & Purpose...your greatest inner happiness?  thread...



> A good friend of mine suggested I watch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....it was on our streaming Netflix.. so our family watched it last week....eating pop corn... thought it might be a good mention on this thread...
> 
> A 1:47 introduction HERE..and Happy Trailer (Documentary 2012)
> 
> "Happy" takes us around the world, looking at different people in various economic situations, and, with the help of happiness science, gauging their level of happiness....it makes the compelling argument that once basic necessities like food and shelter are provided for, economic factors have relatively little to do with overall satisfaction in life.
> 
> Using a balance of scientific research and fascinating human stories, the filmmakers explore some of the non-material roots of happiness, and in the process, show that while there isn’t a formula for it, everyone can become happier.
> 
> Our circumstances, our job, income, social status, age and health accounts for another *10 % *of our happiness. But the really good news is that there is a great deal you can do to make yourself happier, as *40 %* of our overall happiness is determined by intentional behavior. These are things people can do on a regular basis to become happier.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The film points out that you can gain more happiness with exercise, being in nature and adding variety to your life.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Search for Happiness .........Happy the movie: Director Roko Belic on Happiness and Empathy
> 
> One of my most profound experiences occurred when I spoke with one of the leading researchers of happiness in the world, Ed Diener, at the University of Illinois. He told me that a person's values are among the best predictors of their happiness.
> 
> **** People who value money, power, fame and good looks are less likely to be happy than people who value compassion, cooperation and a willingness to make the world a better place. That astounded me -- but it somehow made sense. People who express their love -- who rejoice in the health and happiness of others -- are more likely to feel loved and happy themselves.
> 
> I asked Ed Diener if there is a single key to happiness, a secret happy ingredient that every happy person in the world possesses. He said that the formula is different for everyone, but the one constant is good relationships. He said every happy person he's studied in over three decades of research had someone to love and someone to be loved by.
> 
> Happy -the Movie : Reviews From a Spiritual Perspective
> 
> Material happiness was explored. It was found that in the U.S., once a person makes $50,000/year, anything after that makes no difference in happiness. A rickshaw driver in India was said to be as happy as a middle-class U.S. citizen. Even though the rickshaw driver had little material comforts, he had an extensive neighborhood support system which greatly contributed to his happiness.
> 
> The film explored what places on earth are the happiest and which are the most unhappy. The most unhappy country was Japan where people work very long hours and literally work themselves to death. There is a term for it, *Karoshi*, which means death from overwork.
> 
> The film went all over the world looking for happiness. In Denmark, a single mom with two kids joined a co-housing community when she had financial difficulties. The film showed how co-housing communities take the financial burden off people and give them an extended family and sense of belonging which promotes a deep sense of happiness.
> 
> One especially moving section of the film for me was a demonstration of how love and connectedness can replace bullying in a school. Michael Pritchard, an emotional healer and stand-up comic, was shown giving a class on cultivating emotional intelligence to an assembly of middle-school children. He asked students to get up and tell their feelings about being bullied. As a result, there was an immediate and profound transformation from separateness to connectedness in the whole room.
> 
> 
> 
> The most surprising thing to me in this documentary was...the 10% being "circumstantial"....I tend to put much weigh on circumstances in my life. ... thinking .. It will all go to hell if _________ or ________ happens... (I tend to be quite a worrier in certain areas...like health & well being)...
> 
> But according to what was learned here..... I am way off.. that we humans, if we are generally happy / connected/ empathetic ...it's our daily walk...can bounce back much quicker than we may realize!.... So that was very encouraging...
> 
> There is a much heavier weight on our attitudes...(that 40%)...with those intentional actions ..basically Happiness is a choice !
Click to expand...


----------



## tech-novelist

This is one of the hardest parts of having to face the reality of how men and women differ.

Women are hard-wired to seek security, because they are descended from women who needed to do that so that their children would survive.

No one can do anything about this, so the only solution is to face it.


----------



## norajane

tech-novelist said:


> This is one of the hardest parts of having to face the reality of how men and women differ.
> 
> Women are hard-wired to seek security, because they are descended from women who needed to do that so that their children would survive.
> 
> No one can do anything about this, so the only solution is to face it.


I'm really curious - do men NEVER worry about how they would support their child or how their child will be raised? Really? They don't worry about this, and if they do, that is a sad fact to be lamented? I give men a LOT more credit than that.

I don't understand why it's such a terrible, horrendous, evil, materialistic thing that women think about how they will be able to take care of and support a child, or multiple children, financially and otherwise, BEFORE having those kids and BEFORE committing to a man to have those kids with.

Doesn't it make her a DUMBASS if she willy-nilly pops out kids without a moment's thought to how she will raise them and with whom? Doesn't it make her a dumbass to have kids she can't afford? Doesn't it make her a dumbass to marry a deadbeat or bum, and then proceed to have kids with him when they can't afford it? Doesn't it make her a dumbass to rely on hope and magic rather than logic and financial planning?


----------



## Cletus

norajane said:


> Doesn't it make her a DUMBASS if she willy-nilly pops out kids without a moment's thought to how she will raise them and with whom?


Yes


> Doesn't it make her a dumbass to have kids she can't afford?


Yes.


> Doesn't it make her a dumbass to marry a deadbeat or bum, and then proceed to have kids with him when they can't afford it?


Yes


> Doesn't it make her a dumbass to rely on hope and magic rather than logic and financial planning?


I trust you see the pattern...

Before I married my wife, who was going to school and living at home at the time, I insisted that she move out and support herself disconnected from mom and dad's apron strings for a year. Because, materialistically, I would have been the dumbass to do otherwise.

Nothing wrong with weighing a prospective spouse's ability to be a sound financial partner in a marriage, either way. In the Top Things that Destroy Marriages, money is every bit as high as sex on the list.


----------



## southbound

norajane said:


> I'm really curious - do men NEVER worry about how they would support their child or how their child will be raised? Really? They don't worry about this, and if they do, that is a sad fact to be lamented? I give men a LOT more credit than that.
> 
> I don't understand why it's such a terrible, horrendous, evil, materialistic thing that women think about how they will be able to take care of and support a child, or multiple children, financially and otherwise, BEFORE having those kids and BEFORE committing to a man to have those kids with.
> 
> Doesn't it make her a DUMBASS if she willy-nilly pops out kids without a moment's thought to how she will raise them and with whom? Doesn't it make her a dumbass to have kids she can't afford? Doesn't it make her a dumbass to marry a deadbeat or bum, and then proceed to have kids with him when they can't afford it? Doesn't it make her a dumbass to rely on hope and magic rather than logic and financial planning?


Sure. I think we all have our own idea of what we are talking about here, and we all have different definitions. 

I wonder myself why some women marry and stay with deadbeats. I know guys who work a while, then they don't, or they don't work at all with no apparent reason as to why. They are happy drawing some kind of check and having enough money to buy cigarettes. That's not what I'm talking about.

But there are people who always work. It may not be in a lawyer's office; it may be at Wal-Mart, and they are good people. It just seems to me that people can often overlook a good person just because they don't make a high wage and wear a suit to work. 

As i mentioned before, the cost of living isn't as high where i live as it is in other places. Nobody is going to starve on minimum wage where I'm from, especially if both people have a minimum wage job, so maybe that's why that doesn't stun me as much. 

If I met a woman that i clicked with and she was rich, fine, it's not like I'm against it, but I'd rather have a woman that I clicked with as opposed to one that made good money and I didn't click with, and I'm certainly not going to turn away a woman that i click with because she doesn't have a high class job.


----------



## southbound

SimplyAmorous said:


> My husband's had a really GOOD Job for the last 18 yrs, considering where he started when we met...given where we live.. lots of unemployment.. it's very hard to find a Living wage here unless you are lucky.. or have a worthy college education (many seem near worthless to me these days)....
> 
> IF he got laid off tomorrow & took a significant pay cut (or another man for that matter)...would I hold that against him... [email protected]#... that is a small snapshot of his life, where he is RIGHT NOW...
> 
> I think circumstances matter to....to why someone is where they are.. We drive older cars... but we've had our house paid off since before we had our last son... because we manage our money so well..
> 
> *I am not sure how many women LOOK at money management AS MUCH as what a man Earns..*...this doesn't seem to enter into these discussions very much...which always baffles me.. that's a huge part of it. Some people APPEAR like they have it all.. but are living in huge debt to keep up appearances, it's all a LIE even.... that is far worse [email protected]#
> 
> I started a new Job... I make double minimum wage.. one doesn't need a college education for the work I do...I'm part time & since I don't get benefits there (which are Killer good).. I make more an hour over what the full time employees do ... there was this one man there.. he's got 3 kids... works lots of overtime.. been at that job for many years now.. kids our age.. his wife works too but he's the one who carries the benefits for the family....
> 
> I could see some women thinking lower of him.. not a catch in any way...like he wasn't ambitious enough.. but I thought he was a GREAT GUY ....responsible, hard worker... taking care of his family.. owns his own home.. I mean.. we've had some discussions with his training me.. why he works there.. he really Cares about the people...he enjoys this sort of work.. I felt he had a GOOD HEART.... (that character @southbound spoke of -for even wanting to do the kind of work we are in)..
> 
> Me personally, how do I say this.... I am more there for the higher pay, and love the Grave-night shift, its the hrs I love... not so much because I want to work with the handicapped.. so not sure what that says about me!
> 
> So yeah.. it comes back to the whole picture for me.. looking at circumstances too - to why someone is where they are.. and if they can build a life, a responsible one, on that income.. if a couple can do it together... I would not turn my nose up to a Garbage collector -if I lost my husband tomorrow..
> Now if he drank, smoked, did weed & partied.. I would.. (that is lifestyle too)... I also would if he wasted his money .... had nothing to show for his hard work over a long period of time..


I read over your post again and just want to say that you are on the same wave length as I. It's about the big picture, not just an income. You see the good qualities in a person aside from what they make.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

southbound said:


> I read over your post again and just want to say that you are on the same wave length as I. It's about the big picture, not just an income. You see the good qualities in a person aside from what they make.


VERY MUCH SO.. I was just working on a post trying to contrast where NoraJane is coming from.. to what you are saying.. there is a huge middle ground there.. that is not being talked about...and Yes !!...there are plenty of women who would not settle for that middle ground... they will look lessor on the man...

What I get from Random Dude is wanting to feel some RESPECT for that Middle ground.. he surely understands a woman cares that a man is "Responsible" in numerous ways , with money, how he manages his life, treats her , that he can afford to LIVE, have a couple kids, he's not looking for a "dumbass".


----------



## southbound

SimplyAmorous said:


> VERY MUCH SO.. I was just working on a post trying to contrast where NoraJane is coming from.. to what you are saying.. there is a huge middle ground there.. that is not being talked about...and Yes !!...there are plenty of women who would not settle for that middle ground... they will look lessor on the man...
> 
> What I get from Random Dude is wanting to feel some RESPECT for that Middle ground.. he surely understands a woman cares that a man is "Responsible" in numerous ways , with money, how he manages his life, treats her , that he can afford to LIVE, have a couple kids, he's not looking for a "dumbass".


Right. I almost get the feeling sometimes that it's like a checklist:
he's a nice guy, responsible, like being around him, he makes me laugh, ooops, he doesn't meet the financial criteria so he's outta here.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

norajane said:


> I'm really curious - do men NEVER worry about how they would support their child or how their child will be raised? Really? They don't worry about this, and if they do, that is a sad fact to be lamented? I give men a LOT more credit than that.
> 
> I don't understand why it's such a terrible, horrendous, evil, materialistic thing that women think about how they will be able to take care of and support a child, or multiple children, financially and otherwise, BEFORE having those kids and BEFORE committing to a man to have those kids with.
> 
> Doesn't it make her a DUMBASS if she willy-nilly pops out kids without a moment's thought to how she will raise them and with whom? Doesn't it make her a dumbass to have kids she can't afford? Doesn't it make her a dumbass to marry a deadbeat or bum, and then proceed to have kids with him when they can't afford it? Doesn't it make her a dumbass to rely on hope and magic rather than logic and financial planning?


Contrasting your post with @southbound 's... obviously you are speaking of a woman who would sleep with near anything.. with no forethought if they'd even be able to afford Rent, let alone a house someday.... Yes this is highly stupid to even get involved with someone who isn't "responsible"...paying their bills and has some nesting instincts.. so they don't have to rely on the government, hand outs, borrowing from family members ...these sorts of situations cause great poverty, and many social ills.. 

But there is a middle ground to look at here too... When I hear of the term materialistic.... I think of those expect more than the *average lifestyle*....these are "high class" people or SEEK TO BE....they expect to be wined, dined, she'd be offended if he didn't buy her the more costly diamond, after all she is worth the highest price... maybe she expects __________ and __________ - where another women just doesn't need all that pampering, she doesn't need to travel the world, or get manicures every month...she would be happy with getting off camping with the kids.. shopping at consignment shops...a real treat may be going to Red Lobster a few times a year...

Random Dude sounds like he's made his fortune, he's done VERY WELL for himself... but as I understand..he came from very meager beginnings...and had to near fight, put in a lot of sweat & determination to get where he is today.. (very admirable by the way) 

Tonight our family watched a movie.. Will Smith playing the father in  The Pursuit of Happyness

Very touching.. that was a true story...and what a STORY IT WAS [email protected]# His wife left him when he was down (I must admit that was REALLY DOWN !)..... but he never gave up! ..and today.. wow.. look where he is...talk about determination to "Make it" and build a better life with near EVERYTHING coming against you!!

There are some darn good people, intelligent people that can find themselves in some really bad situations... (even if they never touched drugs, or did outrageously stupid things to end up there)... they may have gotten laid off after many years of service to a company, or took a pay cut, less hours so they can be there for a special needs child, or moving closer to home to be there for a parent dying of cancer...so many situations where maybe the affluent lifestyle wasn't the priority, but took a back seat ... 

Just trying to point out that I personally would factor these things in.. when evaluating a mate of any sort..I find things like that very admirable.


----------



## norajane

SA, I completely agree with you. There is a vast middle ground, _vast_.

It's RD who is convinced ALL the women of Sydney are materialistic, and he can't find any that aren't, except for the ones who are incompatible with him.


----------



## Personal

There are lots of wonderful women in/from Sydney, I'm married to one of them and know some others as well.


----------



## Aspydad

I do feel for those who for whatever reason find themselves single later in life - once they have already become successful (at least from their point of view as that is a very relative term). How does one ever really know that the women or man is really into you or into your money? I think the more money one has, the more this can be a problem. 

My parents live in a retirement community if Florida - and they actually know people who find themselves in this situation - either from divorce or, even more common where they are, the death of a spouse. My Dad plays cards with a guy who lives down the street - this guys wife died about five years ago - he was only 60 at the time. My Dad tells me how all of the single old / young ladies just swarmed over this guy - for about two years after his wife died this guy hardly ever had to cook for himself - these ladies kept bringing him food. About two years ago he did remarry - to a women who was 10 years younger and very attractive - but NOT well off as she had been divorced and got screwed by her husband. One thing that I did not mention - this guy is a retired ex VP at IBM - and is worth millions. I do know that this guy has a very solid prenup - and that his kids are going to get most of his estate - but, the longer he is married - the higher percentage his new wife will get. This guy did confide to my Dad - jokingly, that really he just had to forget about money - and just take the dive with new romance - as you only live once and at his age - he had no time to waste.

I have done alright for myself. If I ever found myself single - for whatever reason - I would have the same attitude as this guy - no time to waste. I really could care less how much money the women has if I find myself attracted to her - mind and body - and most importantly - do we mesh as a couple. If I found that - what does it matter what the women is worth?? I actually like taking care of and protecting someone I love anyway. Now, I certainly would have a prenup - I am not stupid - and I would make sure that half of my net worth - goes to my kids at the very least - and I would also increase the percentage that goes to the new wife the longer we are married up to the 50%. Also, depending on my health and age - I would start to actually move the 50% into my kids name in the form of a trust - so just in case I get to a point were I am mentally incompetent - there is no way I can be taken advantage of.


----------



## southbound

SimplyAmorous said:


> Contrasting your post with @southbound 's... obviously you are speaking of a woman who would sleep with near anything.. with no forethought if they'd even be able to afford Rent, let alone a house someday.... Yes this is highly stupid to even get involved with someone who isn't "responsible"...paying their bills and has some nesting instincts.. so they don't have to rely on the government, hand outs, borrowing from family members ...these sorts of situations cause great poverty, and many social ills..
> 
> But there is a middle ground to look at here too... When I hear of the term materialistic.... I think of those expect more than the *average lifestyle*....these are "high class" people or SEEK TO BE....they expect to be wined, dined, she'd be offended if he didn't buy her the more costly diamond, after all she is worth the highest price... maybe she expects __________ and __________ - where another women just doesn't need all that pampering, she doesn't need to travel the world, or get manicures every month...she would be happy with getting off camping with the kids.. shopping at consignment shops...a real treat may be going to Red Lobster a few times a year...
> 
> There are some darn good people, intelligent people that can find themselves in some really bad situations... (even if they never touched drugs, or did outrageously stupid things to end up there)... they may have gotten laid off after many years of service to a company, or took a pay cut, less hours so they can be there for a special needs child, or moving closer to home to be there for a parent dying of cancer...so many situations where maybe the affluent lifestyle wasn't the priority, but took a back seat ...
> 
> Just trying to point out that I personally would factor these things in.. when evaluating a mate of any sort..I find things like that very admirable.


SA, you have such a way of describing what I am trying to say. There is a middle ground, and I like the word "responsible." One has to be responsible regardless of their situation. 

Again, I'm not saying a woman should marry a dead beat. here's a situation: Let's say a guy is in his forties, has a middle class job, has a 1200 sq. foot home, nothing fancy at all, but it's his. It has no pool or other bells and whistles. He has one vehicle, and doesn't care much for stuff; however, he's responsible, doesn't have to worry about paying his bills or where his next meal is coming from, and he's a good person; he's not a drunk, on drugs, wouldn't cheat, and has a great relationship with others.

Still, that wouldn't be good enough for some women, even some who consider themselves average. I don't get that.


----------



## norajane

southbound said:


> SA, you have such a way of describing what I am trying to say. There is a middle ground, and I like the word "responsible." One has to be responsible regardless of their situation.
> 
> Again, I'm not saying a woman should marry a dead beat. here's a situation: Let's say a guy is in his forties, has a middle class job, has a 1200 sq. foot home, nothing fancy at all, but it's his. It has no pool or other bells and whistles. He has one vehicle, and doesn't care much for stuff; however, he's responsible, doesn't have to worry about paying his bills or where his next meal is coming from, and he's a good person; he's not a drunk, on drugs, wouldn't cheat, and has a great relationship with others.
> 
> Still, that wouldn't be good enough for some women, even some who consider themselves average. I don't get that.


I have to disagree; I think there are many, many women who consider that sort of personal and financial responsibility very appealing. Here in the Midwest, USA, that is mostly what people are - middle class and raising families to the best of their ability and not trying to buy $1000 purses and expensive cars or whatever. I know this because these are the women and men I am friends with, couples who are working hard to give themselves and their kids the best life they can.

But if a guy is only meeting women at the hottest clubs in town and is wearing his $1000+ watch and shoes and whatnot, the only women he is going to meet are women who care about superficial things.


----------



## southbound

norajane said:


> I have to disagree; I think there are many, many women who consider that sort of personal and financial responsibility very appealing. Here in the Midwest, USA, that is mostly what people are - middle class and raising families to the best of their ability and not trying to buy $1000 purses and expensive cars or whatever. I know this because these are the women and men I am friends with, couples who are working hard to give themselves and their kids the best life they can.


I'm glad to hear that there are people like that in other places. I often think sometimes that it's because i live in a rural area that people think they have to "rise above" and have all their little toys to show people that they've made it. I'm sure availability dictates what that looks like in different places. I'm not saying that if you drive through my little rural town that it looks like Beverly Hills; that's not here. 

Around here, though, a lot of people like to have their houses with at least three bedroom homes, at least two or three vehicles, boats, campers, four-wheelers, grills that look like space ships, swimming pools, at least two traveling vacations a year, and all that. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that if it's what you've built up to. 

However, if one of those ladyies found herself no longer married, the guy I described with the 1200 sq. ft. home just wouldn't be quite good enough. 

I guess our culture is different in other ways in a small town too. It seems that everybody rubs shoulders with everybody else. In other words, the lawyers, doctors, and couple that owns a house that is rumored to be over a million dollars, socializes with the farmers, factory workers, and other average Joes. There are no ritzy restaurants where only the lawyers eat and a greasy spoon for everybody else.

So, on the surface, everybody mingles, but if that lady that lives in the million dollar house became single, I'm sure she would look for another big shot, even though she likes to appear average Joe on the surface.


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## RandomDude

southbound said:


> Right. I almost get the feeling sometimes that it's like a checklist:
> he's a nice guy, responsible, like being around him, he makes me laugh, ooops, he doesn't meet the financial criteria so he's outta here.


Lol that's normally how it is unless I start flashing my wallet around



SimplyAmorous said:


> There are some darn good people, intelligent people that can find themselves in some really bad situations... (even if they never touched drugs, or did outrageously stupid things to end up there)... they may have gotten laid off after many years of service to a company, or took a pay cut, less hours so they can be there for a special needs child, or moving closer to home to be there for a parent dying of cancer...so many situations where maybe the affluent lifestyle wasn't the priority, but took a back seat ...
> 
> Just trying to point out that I personally would factor these things in.. when evaluating a mate of any sort..I find things like that very admirable.


Exactly, and it's hard to find women here who will understand.



norajane said:


> SA, I completely agree with you. There is a vast middle ground, _vast_.
> 
> It's RD who is convinced ALL the women of Sydney are materialistic, and he can't find any that aren't, except for the ones who are incompatible with him.


As I mentioned before, I never mentioned ALL, but most of the women I have dated since ex has all been the same. 



Personal said:


> There are lots of wonderful women in/from Sydney, I'm married to one of them and know some others as well.


So did I - ex wife, and I'm currently trying to get back in the good books of a recent one that I dated, namely because I've realised they are simply too rare for me to start being picky.

I may not get sex from this one for a while - maybe a year or more due to her standards of sexual morality, but not like I have a choice really.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Aspydad said:


> I do feel for those who for whatever reason find themselves single later in life - once they have already become successful (at least from their point of view as that is a very relative term). How does one ever really know that the women or man is really into you or into your money? I think the more money one has, the more this can be a problem.
> 
> My parents live in a retirement community if Florida - and they actually know people who find themselves in this situation - either from divorce or, even more common where they are, the death of a spouse. My Dad plays cards with a guy who lives down the street - this guys wife died about five years ago - he was only 60 at the time. My Dad tells me how all of the single old / young ladies just swarmed over this guy - for about two years after his wife died this guy hardly ever had to cook for himself - these ladies kept bringing him food. About two years ago he did remarry - to a women who was 10 years younger and very attractive - but NOT well off as she had been divorced and got screwed by her husband. One thing that I did not mention - this guy is a retired ex VP at IBM - and is worth millions. I do know that this guy has a very solid prenup - and that his kids are going to get most of his estate - but, the longer he is married - the higher percentage his new wife will get. This guy did confide to my Dad - jokingly, that really he just had to forget about money - and just take the dive with new romance - as you only live once and at his age - he had no time to waste.
> 
> I have done alright for myself. If I ever found myself single - for whatever reason - I would have the same attitude as this guy - no time to waste. I really could care less how much money the women has if I find myself attracted to her - mind and body - and most importantly - do we mesh as a couple. If I found that - what does it matter what the women is worth?? I actually like taking care of and protecting someone I love anyway. Now, I certainly would have a prenup - I am not stupid - and I would make sure that half of my net worth - goes to my kids at the very least - and I would also increase the percentage that goes to the new wife the longer we are married up to the 50%. Also, depending on my health and age - I would start to actually move the 50% into my kids name in the form of a trust - so just in case I get to a point were I am mentally incompetent - there is no way I can be taken advantage of.


Hopefully, your dad's friend is just joking. IF this second wife is loving wife, he is benefiting from the positive AND constant companionship. his kids benefit from knowing that their father is not alone and / or hassling them for company while they pursue their own adult lives with their own families (and in-laws).

Marriage is the kind of the relationship where each partner expects the other to drop everything for the other. If you prefer to have a non working spouse or one whose job does not prioritise her life, then you need to give her / him some security.

When I was just dating my husband and he was in talks with his employer about moving country for the firm, I told him that I wasn't going to continue to just hang out with him so that he could leave in another year. I needed security and I didn't get him with him, I would keep looking. At the very least, I could at least spend more time with my friends and let him wonder how he might fill his weekends.


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## NotEasy

norajane said:


> I'm really curious - do men NEVER worry about how they would support their child or how their child will be raised? Really? They don't worry about this, and if they do, that is a sad fact to be lamented? I give men a LOT more credit than that.
> 
> I don't understand why it's such a terrible, horrendous, evil, materialistic thing that women think about how they will be able to take care of and support a child, or multiple children, financially and otherwise, BEFORE having those kids and BEFORE committing to a man to have those kids with.
> 
> Doesn't it make her a DUMBASS if she willy-nilly pops out kids without a moment's thought to how she will raise them and with whom? Doesn't it make her a dumbass to have kids she can't afford? Doesn't it make her a dumbass to marry a deadbeat or bum, and then proceed to have kids with him when they can't afford it? Doesn't it make her a dumbass to rely on hope and magic rather than logic and financial planning?


I certainly think there is a difference in how men and women think of and plan for the future. My wife was planning for our daughter before conception. Our daughter didn't become serious to me until I actually saw her. I look back on that second as the biggest change in my world view ever. My wife and I ended up at the same point. Suddenly her urgency about baby clothes etc made sense.

But I don't see this as materialism. And I don't have a problem with a spouse planning how to look after our family. Hopefully this is not what RandomDude sees as materialism. 

I do see a big difference between Austalian city and country folk. We describe ourselves as bush people, but most have never left bitumen and concrete. Here in the city many females see their future happiness in terms of which suburb they will live in, where they will fly on vacation and what car they will drive. Their plan seems to be to trade their looks for this future retirement, they want to be someones sugar baby. In one sense this is sort of rational, they see city houses as too expensive to get any other way. But they have taken it too far.

One way to improve the odds is to move to the country. My family are in the country and view life very differently. 

Another way is to change where you mingle in the city. I suggest church, even though I think you mentioned your ex's church as a problem. There are many different churches with different approaches. Our church guides singles into bible studies and simple group dinner dates while frowning on expensive romances. Materialism is seen as a sin, and is preached against.


----------



## Wolf1974

southbound said:


> SA, you have such a way of describing what I am trying to say. There is a middle ground, and I like the word "responsible." One has to be responsible regardless of their situation.
> 
> Again, I'm not saying a woman should marry a dead beat. here's a situation: Let's say a guy is in his forties, has a middle class job, has a 1200 sq. foot home, nothing fancy at all, but it's his. It has no pool or other bells and whistles. He has one vehicle, and doesn't care much for stuff; however, he's responsible, doesn't have to worry about paying his bills or where his next meal is coming from, and he's a good person; he's not a drunk, on drugs, wouldn't cheat, and has a great relationship with others.
> 
> Still, that wouldn't be good enough for some women, even some who consider themselves average. I don't get that.


 from the other thread I learned you are in a smaller community and that may play a part in this. Your choices may be limited on the number of women willing to accept what you can give. Where I live I have a greater dating pool. I have been passed over for men that make more money but have no issue with that since that's not my lifestyle. But I have never once had trouble finding women who were willing to accept what I have and what I was willing to give. The numbers here are just more in favor of that here.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

NotEasy said:


> I certainly think there is a difference in how men and women think of and plan for the future. My wife was planning for our daughter before conception. Our daughter didn't become serious to me until I actually saw her. I look back on that second as the biggest change in my world view ever. My wife and I ended up at the same point. Suddenly her urgency about baby clothes etc made sense.
> 
> But I don't see this as materialism. And I don't have a problem with a spouse planning how to look after our family. Hopefully this is not what RandomDude sees as materialism.


 I feel the same.. no way he is defining it like this.. this is not about excess, or putting THINGS as more important than people...

Feeling like a broken record.. this is about being Responsible... it's at the heart of loving even....so our children are cared for. 



> I do see a big difference between Austalian city and country folk. We describe ourselves as bush people, but most have never left bitumen and concrete. Here in the city many females see their future happiness in terms of which suburb they will live in, where they will fly on vacation and what car they will drive. Their plan seems to be to trade their looks for this future retirement, they want to be someones sugar baby. In one sense this is sort of rational, they see city houses as too expensive to get any other way. But they have taken it too far.
> 
> One way to improve the odds is to move to the country. *My family are in the country and view life very differently. *
> 
> Another way is to change where you mingle in the city. I suggest church, even though I think you mentioned your ex's church as a problem. There are many different churches with different approaches. *Our church guides singles into bible studies and simple group dinner dates while frowning on expensive romances. Materialism is seen as a sin, and is preached against*.


I have to agree... there seems to be a disconnect in what seems fulfilling or what one desires between country folk and those who've lived mainly a Big city lifestyle...so much of this has to do with how we've been brought up, raised / taught. I've definitely sat in the Church pew hearing the parables of Jesus & the rich man. 

I would feel like a fish out of water to mingle with Big city people.... 

I wish I could remember the program now.. caught it on TV a few months back.. .about a Buddhist country... Bhutan - The happiest place on Earth - You Tube .. they are very much against materialism , also what they call "Consumerism". 

"Gross National Happiness" is more Important than "Gross National Product" is how one lady explained it.. what a difference in how people THINK...

Materialism: a system that eats us from the inside out | Opinion | The Guardian



> But an impressive body of psychological research seems to support these feelings. It suggests that materialism, a trait that can afflict both rich and poor, and which the researchers define as "a value system that is preoccupied with possessions and the social image they project", is both socially destructive and self-destructive. It smashes the happiness and peace of mind of those who succumb to it. It's associated with anxiety, depression and broken relationships.
> 
> There has long been a correlation observed between materialism, a lack of empathy and engagement with others, and unhappiness. But research conducted over the past few years seems to show causation. For example, a series of studies published in the journal Motivation and Emotion in July showed that as people become more materialistic, their wellbeing (good relationships, autonomy, sense of purpose and the rest) diminishes. As they become less materialistic, it rises.
> 
> In one study, the researchers tested a group of 18-year-olds, then re-tested them 12 years later. They were asked to rank the importance of different goals –* jobs, money and status* on one side, and *self-acceptance, fellow feeling and belonging* on the other. They were then given a standard diagnostic test to identify mental health problems. At the ages of both 18 and 30, materialistic people were more susceptible to disorders. But if in that period they became less materialistic, they became happier.


----------



## taytay03

I have an advanced degree work full time in my field and like my job. I make more money than my husband. But I also have two kids under 3. If it were financially feasible I would quit my job in a hot second to be home with my kids while they are so small. 

Just because these women would prefer to have flexibility to stay home does not mean that all they are looking for is money. I wouldn't trade my situation to be married to anyone else despite how hard things can be juggling a household and two jobs. I enjoy my work and would return to it once my kids started school if I had the option.


----------



## southbound

SimplyAmorous said:


> Feeling like a broken record.. this is about being Responsible... it's at the heart of loving even....so our children are cared for.
> 
> I have to agree... there seems to be a disconnect in what seems fulfilling or what one desires between country folk and those who've lively mainly a Big city lifestyle...so much of this has to do with how we've been brought up, raised / taught. I've definitely sat in the Church pew hearing the parables of Jesus & the rich man.


True, and I believe there is a disconnect between a lot of people as to what is fulfilling, not just between country and city.

My situation is that I have a decent job. I have no trouble paying bills and having the things I "need." It's not like I'm having to choose between food or clothes, and I don't live check-to-check. I believe that is all due to responsibility and me being able to manage money; however, if I had or tried to have all the "stuff" that some people have, I'd be in the poor house and insane to boot. I enjoy peace of mind more than stuff, but that is not fulfilling to a lot of people.

the thing I enjoy in life the most is peace of mind and not being in the rat race and having to be on the go all the time. that doesn't take as much money as a lot of lifestyles, so I'm not spending every moment reaching for the next dollar. I have a long summer vacation. I suppose I could find a side job and get more money, but that wouldn't fulfill me as much as the peace of mind of doing nothing.

Not many people work a job where they get as much vacation time as i do. I look at that as a huge success within itself. I use that time to just chill and live at my own pace because that is what i like but it wouldn't fulfill a lot of people.

It's also interesting to me as to how people view things according to the situation. Sometimes things are good enough, but not in other situations. For example, I remember a celebrity couple got married once, and it showed pictures of where thy stayed. I can't remember where, but it was an old cabin, and the bed looked like somebody went into the woods, chopped down a tree, threw a few bed posts together in about 10 minutes, and threw a mattress on it.

I'm sure that was so marvelous under the circumstance, but I'm sure it wouldn't be good enough for their everyday life.

SA, you mentioned the old men that lived across from you once and everything was old. I've noticed that some people can go buy a piece of old furniture that looks like it's been sitting under the drip, bring it in their house, and everybody will marvel about how great and rustic it is.

But, if that's what they had simply because they just hadn't bought a new piece of furniture in 40 years, somehow, it wouldn't be as acceptable. A psychological mystery. 

So, what I'm describing probably isn't materialism in it's truest form, but most people aren't satisfied with the simple stuff.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

notmyrealname4 said:


> And, it's my belief and experience (from being the woman who paid for dates, and has earned more) that men DESPISE women who pay for dates.
> 
> Men (deep down) respect women who set the bar high financially. I don't know why. It's what I've seen.
> 
> When a woman pays, somehow men see that as a slap in the face to their masculinity. If a women was worth anything, she'd be confident enough to expect a man to pay.
> 
> So what's wrong with this chick; that she's willing to pay half the check?


I really don't have any experience here to speak of.. since I've been with my hubs like forever.. I tend to view this a little different.. just due to how *culture* and *expectations* have changed.. 
There was once a time a man wanted to show a lady how much he cared for her, and treated her like a lady...back in those days when Marriage was supposed to mean something.....not so much jumping into bed for more experience... Basically women were wooed, they appreciated a man showing protection, his care...now any notion of Chivalry is looked upon as misogyny (by some women anyway). 

So...this has all been shot to hell.. now women want to F**k just as much and boast how they don't need a man, they can take care of themselves, thank you...

Therefore.. the roles have been shaken up.. men who still believe in Wooing a lady, treating her ...generally they are the good guys (so I feel anyway)...sometimes they get Taken by unscrupulous women who want to use them - till something better comes along... I've seen it happen to a close friend ....so yeah.. it bothers me.. 

Now me personally.. I would offer to pay if I just met someone.. because I wouldn't want him thinking he was owed sex.. it's a shame women need to worry about that... but again.. EXPECTATIONS HAVE CHANGED ..... 

Heck women jump to have sex without even a date today! SO if you get as far as an actual sit down date & he pays... I can only imagine what they are expecting. 

Don't get me wrong.. plenty of unscrupulous men out there too.. Now my husband is old fashioned and he wouldn't allow me to Pay.. and yeah I love him for feeling LIKE THAT... 

Even though I am old fashioned myself.. and love when Men treated women like ladies.. I guess my point is.. I just wouldn't expect to find too much of this today.... so I'd have to play a new game.. and be that independent chick who has no need of anyone...while trying to find love.. I think it sucks personally.. but what can you do!


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## southbound

notmyrealname4 said:


> Or you are creating a "unicorn woman". Desiring a combination of characteristics in one person that is highly unlikely. Like women who want a "sensitive man", who's a corporate CEO ---- not very likely.


Good point. I hadn't thought of it quite like that. 

I described my schedule and lifestyle earlier. To apply your statement to myself, I'm a guy who wouldn't be "gone" all the time working and then have to spend 2 or 3 hours at the home office when I got in; in in addition, I'm forgetting birthdays because I'm caught up in something else. 

I would be more plugged in to what was going on in "our" lives. I think it's easier to be sensitive, have date nights, do something special for the birthday, and cuddle on the couch more when you're actually at home more as opposed to being gone and mind wrapped up in work all the time.

If that's what is important to a woman, I'd fit the bill. I'm sure I wouldn't have the big house and all the bells and whistles that a CEO might have, so if the choice has to be made, I guess it's up to the woman to decide which is more important to her. 

I realize that people being on the go all the time is just some people's norm and they probably wouldn't give it a second thought, and being together a lot doesn't work as well for all couples, but I believe evaluating the entire situation is a must.


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## ReformedHubby

I have an opinion here. Apologies in advanced because I honestly don't have the time to wade through nineteen pages of responses. For me, the bottom line is there are several double standards that are applied to both sexes that will never go away. The reality is, if you're a man. You're a provider, period. Go ahead and be a starving artist or a jazz drummer if you want to, by the time you reach 30, your options with women will basically be limited to one night stands. This is truth. You can choose to ignore it or embrace it. I embrace it. Do you think men want to be successful to impress other men????? Literally everything we do is to impress women. Do you think guys would be pumping iron in the gym if women didn't care? Don't run from it, I say be the biggest baddest RandomDude you can be. You only live once. Stop freaking complaining!!!! Lots of guys would love to be you, for many, it doesn't come so easily.


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## jld

ReformedHubby said:


> I have an opinion here. Apologies in advanced because I honestly don't have the time to wade through nineteen pages of responses. *For me, the bottom line is there are several double standards that are applied to both sexes that will never go away. * The reality is, if you're a man. You're a provider, period. Go ahead and be a starving artist or a jazz drummer if you want to, by the time you reach 30, your options with women will basically be limited to one night stands. This is truth. You can choose to ignore it or embrace it. I embrace it. Do you think men want to be successful to impress other men????? Literally everything we do is to impress women. Do you think guys would be pumping iron in the gym if women didn't care? Don't run from it, I say be the biggest baddest RandomDude you can be. You only live once. Stop freaking complaining!!!! Lots of guys would love to be you, for many, it doesn't come so easily.


The bolded would make for a good thread, RH.


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## ReformedHubby

jld said:


> The bolded would make for a good thread, RH.


Ha, ha. It would, but I certainly wouldn't start it. That one would get ugly quickly. For whatever reason a lot of people want to believe that the sexes are the same and get offended when you imply otherwise.


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## jld

ReformedHubby said:


> Ha, ha. It would, but I certainly wouldn't start it. That one would get ugly quickly. For whatever reason a lot of people want to believe that the sexes are the same and get offended when you imply otherwise.


I would still be interested in your un-PC thoughts.

Anyway, thought it sounded like an interesting topic.

Back to you, RD.


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## RandomDude

Ey? Pretty done with this thread actually, I decided not to compromise. When I love a woman I dont love her for her finances, and I expect the same standard.

Ive come a long way from very humble beginnings but I keep my feet on the ground. I continue to reach for success at work not because of material gain, but to do the best job I can for my daughters future, and the teams who have faith in me to keep their own financial future secure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## southbound

RandomDude said:


> Ey? Pretty done with this thread actually, I decided not to compromise. When I love a woman I dont love her for her finances, and I expect the same standard.
> 
> Ive come a long way from very humble beginnings but I keep my feet on the ground. I continue to reach for success at work not because of material gain, but to do the best job I can for my daughters future, and the teams who have faith in me to keep their own financial future secure.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well put. I wouldn't love a woman for her finances, and I expect the same standards. I believe that it does add to the attraction for some people. It doesn't for me, and I never understood it. If I meet a woman and I click with her and feel an attraction, it's really not going to change anything if she works the counter at a department store or if she has a master's degree and makes big money. That latter is not going to make it easier to picture waking up by her for the rest of my life, and it's not going to make me desire her more sexually. 

I had a financially adequate, but humble childhood, and mentally, I am still a down to earth person.


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## DustyDog

I'm usually the person who is asked "A or B?" and I answer "C". And I see a value in doing so now.

First off, nobody has to accept materialism. But this will be difficult if you, yourself, are materialistic! In the OP, he writes of " the revelations that my wealth contributes to my attractiveness". How does a woman find out that a man is wealthy? Why would a man, if he really wanted a woman to love him for who he truly is, put any wealth on display? And, if he does put wealth on display, isn't that exactly "who he really is?"

Growing up, my Dad was pretty obsessed with money - that is, keeping as much as we could. Fairly normal for someone raised in the depression. It was a major source of arguments between Mom and Dad, she claimed that he should show more love to her by spending money. All that is simply background for why I decided, at an early age, to come to my own understanding about money.

And here is the fundamental guiding principle about how I view money:
Money is like oxygen. You only notice it when you don't have enough.

And, "enough" comes from your choice of lifestyle. 

And...there's a sequence:
1) Select a lifestyle
2) Determine a method to have the funds required to support it.

There are lots of tests out there to determine how healthy your view of money is. 

Here are two:
1). If you were gifted $1, what would you do with it? If you were gifted $100, what would you do with it? If you were gifted $100,000, what would you do with it?

Financially healthy people, it is said, would have the same answer to that question no matter how big the gift. They know what their highest financial goal is and anything extra goes toward it, whether it's saving for a down payment for a house, funding kids' college, retirement, etc.

Second test:
You quit your job at a company on the brink of bankruptcy and get a new job, doing approximately the same work, at double pay.

What do you buy? How does your lifestyle change?

Financially healthy people, they say, would not change their lifestyles. They might accelerate a costly repair, they might replace a vehicle that's requiring costly repairs every month, but they won't move out of a house that they previously thought was good enough.


So, with all that...exactly why would a man put his wealth on display, and then want to be loved for being someone other than "a man who puts his wealth on display"?


My early study of money and how I planned to deal with it put me in pretty good shape. I made a dumb mistake early on, I bought a used car with a loan "to start building a good credit score". That monthly payment felt like a monkey on my back and I began to realize that I didn't really want a good credit score, because I didn't plan to be in debt long. I paid off the car early. A few years later, my first house, got that paid off early by taking on roommates and so on. Learned enough about the market to accelerate the earnings on investments in company 401k plan, etc.

I've always had a higher net worth than typically 80% of people my age - but there would be nothing about my lifestyle to show it. I drove cars at least 5 years old, kept my house decor modest, as well as the house size.

Because that really IS who I am...a guy who got enough financial resources for money to be "no problem", but who doesn't "live it up".

As I think about my dating days, I really don't recall that my income or worth came up at all. How would it? I dated a few VPs, whose income, I'm sure were way over mine, but so what. I dated women on welfare, but so what.

My opinion is that if you put your money on display, you WILL attract the women for whom it matters a great deal.

Just my opinion....


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## MikeTO

zookeeper said:


> It's a shame that someone concerned with a partner's ability to earn a living is automatically labeled "gold digger."
> 
> Having a steady, healthy income is not just a means to the end of having more stuff. It is can also be an indicator of maturity, responsibility, reliability, ambition, drive and good decision making skills. Not a guarantee either way, but these are good indicators to look for. At the very least, a woman who gets involved with a financially successful man has fewer worries that she will end up supporting him while he sits on the couch getting fatter and playing video games.
> 
> Are there people out there that want a meal ticket? Sure. Does that mean that anyone who looks for someone who is financially successful is a money grabber? No way.
> 
> If I were single and looking for a LTR, I would most certainly be looking for a woman who is reasonably successful financially. Not only for the reasons above, but so that I know I won't be limited in the life I want to live because she can't afford to participate unless I foot the bill. I'm very generous (often to a fault) but at this point in my life
> 
> Sounds to me that women who acknowledge your income trigger your own insecurities. Perhaps you are concerned that if you lost your income they would have no further use for you? Maybe you are just using this as a wall to prevent you from getting hurt again. Could be any number of things. Are you seeing a counselor to help you work this through?
> 
> The fact that you chose to work over 80 hours a week instead of accepting help from your in laws speaks volumes. Doesn't sound to me like you are comfortable with your own worth as a person. How did it benefit your wife and child to have you gone most of the time and probably dog-tired whenever you actually were home? Why would you refuse the help? Did you feel judged by them?


That's not about insecurities. David Choe went through this crap after people found out he is a millionare worth hundreds of millions of dollars. It's funny how almost every single female from high school called him and wanted to date him with the exception of one woman and that was his 2nd ex girlfriend from highschool.

Why would they of a sudden contact him pretty much in the same month when they never contacted before that? It is likely there are at least 100 women that called him if not more. But hey men shouldn't be cautious.


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## MikeTO

ReformedHubby said:


> . Do you think guys would be pumping iron in the gym if women didn't care?


I workout for my health not for some woman. I had quite a few women hit on me and I just wanted to be left alone. Considering these women either were married or had boyfriend because a big deal.

Times have changed women can work now. Women are getting higher paying jobs. The number of men that can be a provider for a career woman is very small.
The risk of child support and alimony that can you struggling financial or leave you homeless makes you think twice. Plenty of men commit suicide after a divorce because they can't see their kids and they are broke. 
It sure makes a man think twice before getting married especially with a materialistic woman.


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