# After 23 Years Wife's Passion Is Gone (or was there any anyway?)



## MarriedFor20Years (Sep 28, 2012)

We have been a couple for 23 years and married for 20. We now have 2 beautiful and healthy Teenagers. Pretty normal sex life to start, you know making babies. Very normal loving family home life. Wife had no interest in any Oral Sex till I asked 10 years ago while on vacation on an incredibly romantic island. Her response was "I'd do it if you really want me to". Bad Sign. Very little interest still. Over the years I have tried to interest her in toys, games, oils and lubes all again to little or no interest. Porn would be a horror for her. In the last few years, very few orgasms on her part, always in the missionary position, maybe her on top a couple of times per year. After sex, she is completely exhausted, even without having an orgasm. She does not even fake it. More and more its just a HJ as she has no energy or passion. Sometimes Oral on her, but rare. The other night, a complete disaster when I tried to play out a fantasy with her during a HJ (intercourse was out of the question) and she angrily got up and said "this does not turn me on at all" and she got up and got dressed and went to sleep, leaving me stunned. She has plainly told me that she has no interest in sex at this time in her life, and that even if I want her to enjoy it, she says can't. What is strange is that she knows how much love and passion I have her, yet there is nothing reciprocating. I should have picked up the signs over the years that sex is not something she enjoys, and not bought and then thrown out all the romantic toys. Sex is now once a week or less. Last month, trying to be open, I asked her if she masturbated if I am away for a night or two, and she said sometimes, but I know she is lying, as we are together almost constantly, and she has no toys or lubes what so ever. The Hitachi Magic Wand if got her for XMASS, thrown out years ago. I should have asked that question at the start, as it turns out she is not a sensual being at all, very beautiful, but now cold. Maybe she has fallen out of love with me, and can't tell me. The thing is I am in terrific shape and a great lover. I feel great love and compassion for all, and I want to share that with her. Nothing back at all. I think our marriage is close to dead as there is no spiritual or emotional connection at all. I think I have been a terrific husband and don't deserve to now be locked in a loveless marriage for the rest of my life. She could care less about my needs, and its not just about sex. She has no interest in me at all. Maybe the kids burned her out. Maybe depression. Maybe 23 years is to long. Surely Menopause is involved as she is close to 50. She could have a great lover for the rest of her life but is to narcissistic to see that. I have never been more depressed about having so much love to give and its just going to an empty soul. At this point, I really don't want to be intimate at all with her. It will never be the same. Maybe thats what she wants. I think I will stick it out for the next 5 years till the kids are in college and then either she cares for me with some passion or I am gone. How sad. Thanks for listening.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

So many stories as yours ...you are not alone. 

Is your wife resentful for anything from your hand over the years? Unfullfilled desires, dreams, wounds not talked about , forgiven, healed..... Have you satisfied her love languages ? 

Or possibly slipped into "Nice Guy" mode and she has slowly grown "apathetic"? 

Resentment can cause a divide like a grand canyon & destroy one's emotional vulnerability with the other...which also steals their joy, excitement and ....passion. 

I feel desiring intimacy/sex is mostly between the ears/ our attitude ~ if one has enough hormones running through their bodies.. getting to the roots of her discontent, the depression...also your manning up (book above)- for yourself... ..... these things are a good start....for trying to salvage what can be salvaged.


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## indiecat (Sep 24, 2012)

Wow there are so many mismatches, have you told her that you don't want to stray, but can't go on like this. Lay it out on the line so that she is clear about you being very unhappy. If she is LD she doesn't care about having a great lover, she doesn't feel the urge, and that may just be hormonal and not her fault.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Another of those clear cases where she "knows" you won't leave or stray, so she has no incentive at all to change. She needs her cage rattled but it doesn't sound like you've got the will or the stones to do it. I'll bet if you started going out on Friday and Saturday nights, and occasionally spending the night in a hotel and returning the next morning as if nothing was wrong that she'd start making an effort pretty quickly.


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## MarriedFor20Years (Sep 28, 2012)

Wow, thanks for the replies. I don't want to stray, but I can't go on like this. Sex with my wife is now completely hollow. I dread sleeping near her now. What do I do if she wants sex? She has no clue how deeply she has hurt my feelings.

When I described my situation to a close Female Friend, she said "don't you have a lover on the side". That really woke me up. I felt like there is hope, that I can have a lover again, someone who has passion and empathy.

However, I would not take another lover as I know it would crush her despite her selfishness. I must wait till my teen is in college. Thankfully, I will still be in my early 50's with so much to offer the right lover. Thanks for listening.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Married,
You want to be a stand up guy? This is your shot. 

You sit your wife down and gently take her through a revised financial plan. In a low-key and non-threatening manner you explain that when your youngest leaves the house you plan to do the same and you want to create a plan that leaves you both in a good situation.



MarriedFor20Years said:


> Wow, thanks for the replies. I don't want to stray, but I can't go on like this. Sex with my wife is now completely hollow. I dread sleeping near her now. What do I do if she wants sex? She has no clue how deeply she has hurt my feelings.
> 
> When I described my situation to a close Female Friend, she said "don't you have a lover on the side". That really woke me up. I felt like there is hope, that I can have a lover again, someone who has passion and empathy.
> 
> However, I would not take another lover as I know it would crush her despite her selfishness. I must wait till my teen is in college. Thankfully, I will still be in my early 50's with so much to offer the right lover. Thanks for listening.


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## indiecat (Sep 24, 2012)

Wow, don't give up like this! You must have had great love for each other to build this family. If you got sick tomorrow, it would be her sitting by your bedside. Talk to her, then talk some more. The surest way to ending your marriage is to bottle it up, fester with resentment and end up 'married singles'. People who are married in name only. Ask her to seek MC with you. Ask her if she is depressed. Divorce is a harrowing event in a person's life.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Honestly OP...being there myself with a wife not into sex but much worse than your once a week.

You probably freaked her out over all the sex stuff. She sees you as nothing more than a sex fiend and a deviant.

Think about it fom her perspective and how you handled it. She really never was much into it but you kept hammering her for it (Trying to FIX her) buying lubes vibrators list goes on an on. You made her hate sex and finds your weekly stuff a CHORE. Probably disgusting.
Even HJ's are the most she'll do because they are the LEAST sexual way to get you off so you leave her the freak alone.

If you would have taken a half a second to look at things from her perspective and temper some of your fantasies you and her would probably have a decent sex life she would actually enjoy like before. Problem is you caused this an women don't forget.

You have a TON of damage to undo. If you want that wild sex life it won't be with her and its going to be a LONG time before she even considers WANTING instead of ACCEPTING a sex life with you again. YOU are just another chore on her list. Nothing is there for her. She only does it because she doesn't want to divorce because you provide safety and security for her. She accepts your life but is probably not very happy at all.

Might as well divorce if you are unwilling to look at this from her perspective and own up to the fact you pushed her over the edge years ago. Forget BJ's she only does those when she wants to.

Sorry just calling it like it is. You attract more with honey. Look in the mirror and you will see why your sex life is messed up right now.


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## Wanting1 (Apr 26, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Honestly OP...being there myself with a wife not into sex but much worse than your once a week.
> 
> You probably freaked her out over all the sex stuff. She sees you as nothing more than a sex fiend and a deviant.
> 
> ...


Are you kidding? His sex life sucks because he wants to have sex with his wife?! The nerve!


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Honestly OP...being there myself with a wife not into sex but much worse than your once a week.
> 
> You probably freaked her out over all the sex stuff. She sees you as nothing more than a sex fiend and a deviant.
> 
> ...


Nice way to blame the original poster. As a woman, I don't think it's fair to dump his wife's unnatural reaction to sex all on his shoulders. Frankly all the things he has mentioned he'd like to try are pretty mainstream and nothing really kinky.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

> In the last few years, very few orgasms on her part, always in the missionary position, maybe her on top a couple of times per year. After sex, she is completely exhausted, even without having an orgasm.


Well, that would make me want to avoid sex...no orgasms and complete exhaustion during sex trying to get to orgasm? ugh. I'm not surprised sex has become a chore if that is her experience of it.

When did she stop having orgasms regularly? Why do you think she isn't having orgasms much anymore?

Are you still affectionate with each other (outside of bed, and not leading to sex)? Do you connect when you talk, or are you in two separate worlds? Do you do anything fun together, like you used to when you met? Do you compliment each other, or flirt at all? Do you laugh together?

Do you respect her? Does she respect you?


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

It sounds to me as if she is going through menopause or is perimenopausal. Have her hormones checked out. 

If a man is low in testosterone, he will have a problem maintaining and erection or lose desire, if a woman is low on female hormones, she will also lose desire.


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## justbidingtime (Sep 25, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Honestly OP...being there myself with a wife not into sex but much worse than your once a week.
> 
> You probably freaked her out over all the sex stuff. She sees you as nothing more than a sex fiend and a deviant.
> 
> ...


Is that you T2??????:scratchhead: Actually making sense with cogent thoughts?

OP I have to ask why you think you are such a proficient wonderful lover? Heck you don't do oral often with your wife (and I wonder about any woman who doesn't like oral as I would a man and oral), and she seldom orgasms. The only way I know I am doing anything right is the fact my spouse orgasms..... Yes I am caring, compassionate, giving and enthusiastic, but does that make me a good lover? Heck I don't know.

T2 is right, you have been getting sex at least 1X/wk for 3 years and have tried to bully your wife with sex toys and gifts and she has told you she isn't into it and you have not really discussed it. 

I can only imagine what my spouse would do if I bought her a 'magic wand' and left it under the tree at xmas (probably end up in my ass).

And it took you 3 years to figure it????? Sorry but you're slow on the uptake.

Best advice is divorce or find a mistress and leave the poor woman alone....


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Wanting a Strong Marriage said:


> Are you kidding? His sex life sucks because he wants to have sex with his wife?! The nerve!


T2 is in a sexless marriage. Based on his past threads, his wife is very likely in a long-term physical affair with another man. She stays with him because he makes a good salary that allows her to not work. His emotional defense for his wife's actions is that the other man is just a friend, that he is to blame for her refusal to have sex, and that he must, somehow, earn back her affection. Because otherwise, he made the mistake of marrying a gold digger who never cared about him.


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## wiigirl (Jun 14, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.


Lol...good site. 








_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## justbidingtime (Sep 25, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> T2 is in a sexless marriage. Based on his past threads, his wife is very likely in a long-term physical affair with another man. She stays with him because he makes a good salary that allows her to not work. His emotional defense for his wife's actions is that the other man is just a friend, that he is to blame for her refusal to have sex, and that he must, somehow, earn back her affection. Because otherwise, he made the mistake of marrying a gold digger who never cared about him.


But what he said I think was not off base. Only on TAM do people think marriage vows are a contract to a fulfilling sex life and carte blanche to whenever and wherever you want.

Read the OP again and tell me why he should have and expects more.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

justbidingtime said:


> But what he said I think was not off base. Only on TAM do people think marriage vows are a contract to a fulfilling sex life and carte blanche to whenever and wherever you want.
> 
> Read the OP again and tell me why he should have and expects more.


I don't think that expecting a marriage to include a satisfying sex life is a radical idea. To the contrary. I think the people who insist that one spouse has the right to disregard the other are the radicals. If a wedding was a mutual suicide pact, the brides would wear black.

T2 was completely off base. While I agree that it is possible for a husband to come across as a pervert and freak out his wife, I seriously doubt that is the case here. The OP is talking about buying some lingerie and toys. He's not trying to get his wife into swinging or uploading videos of her online.

However, I think the Married Man Sex Life, and/or No More Mister Nice Guy approaches, where the husband takes the lead in changing the marriage, may be beneficial here. Sitting back and complaining and hoping that the wife changes here behavior will get the OP nowhere fast.


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## justbidingtime (Sep 25, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> I don't think that expecting a marriage to include a satisfying sex life is a radical idea. To the contrary. I think the people who insist that one spouse has the right to disregard the other are the radicals. If a wedding was a mutual suicide pact, the brides would wear black.
> 
> T2 was completely off base. While I agree that it is possible for a husband to come across as a pervert and freak out his wife, I seriously doubt that is the case here. The OP is talking about buying some lingerie and toys. He's not trying to get his wife into swinging or uploading videos of her online.
> 
> However, I think the Married Man Sex Life, and/or No More Mister Nice Guy approaches, where the husband takes the lead in changing the marriage, may be beneficial here. Sitting back and complaining and hoping that the wife changes here behavior will get the OP nowhere fast.


Personally I think buying sexy lingerie or sex toys for Xmas for a spouse who makes it abundantly clear she is not sexual is ballsy and quite off putting.

Read the OP again and tell me where he should have expected more (only coerced her into oral 10 years ago).

Plus he's getting no pity from me as he is getting it at least weekly as it is...


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

justbidingtime said:


> But what he said I think was not off base. Only on TAM do people think marriage vows are a contract to a fulfilling sex life and carte blanche to whenever and wherever you want.
> 
> Read the OP again and tell me why he should have and expects more.


What's so radical about the idea of a fulfilling sex life with one's spouse? If we agree to forsake all others (part of the standard marital vows in my country) then the expectation that comes with giving up sex with others is the spouse provides the sexual fulfillment since one can't get it from outsiders.


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## justbidingtime (Sep 25, 2012)

Coffee Amore said:


> What's so radical about the idea of a fulfilling sex life with one's spouse? If we agree to forsake all others (part of the standard marital vows in my country) then the expectation that comes with giving up sex with others is the spouse provides the sexual fulfillment since one can't get it from outsiders.


Well maybe write it into your vows along with weight gain, hygiene, code of conduct & salary requirements.......


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

justbidingtime said:


> Personally I think buying sexy lingerie or sex toys for Xmas for a spouse who makes it abundantly clear she is not sexual is ballsy and quite off putting.


Wrong. What is ballsy is to marry a man you are not attracted to, make a claim on his labor for decades, and then deny him intimacy for so long that he is reduced to a quivering, simpering, wreck. For a man in that situation to grasp at straws in order to spark some interest from his wife is completely understandable. It's quite cold-hearted to suggest otherwise.

I have no doubt that the OP's wife did not present that picture when he was courting her. Oh, I'm sure that she wasn't very sexual. But I would be shocked if she told him, "Look, I'll put up with duty sex once a week or less. But I'll never enjoy it and I'll always try to make you feel bad about it." If she really said something along those lines, then I agree with you. The OP got what he asked for.


justbidingtime said:


> Read the OP again and tell me where he should have expected more (only coerced her into oral 10 years ago).


You need to read the OP again. Nothing was said about coercion. He took her to a romantic island and asked for oral. Nothing about a gun, a knife, or leaving her on the island if she refused. She just used a passive-aggressive remark to try to make him feel bad about wanting it. I say going 13 years without oral makes him a damned hero.

So, again. Marriage is a sexual relationship. That's why even the Church will annul marriages that have not been consummated. Even the Pope expects marriage to be sexual. Only radicals try to argue that marriage should NOT be sexual.


justbidingtime said:


> Plus he's getting no pity from me as he is getting it at least weekly as it is...


That's OK. I've got enough pity for both of us. Trust me, getting duty sex all the time is pretty sad. It can crush a man's spirit for the woman he loves, who has professed to love him for the rest of her life, to ask him to finish up and get off her because she would rather be folding laundry.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

justbidingtime said:


> Well maybe write it into your vows along with weight gain, hygiene, code of conduct & salary requirements.......


You think that's not in the vows? Seriously?

You're saying that, if your husband quit his job, stopped washing, gained 100 lbs, and spent his days on the couch playing video games, you would continue to love, honor, and cherish him? I think not. I think most women would give such a man a few weeks, perhaps even months, before cheating and/or leaving. And few of them would even feel guilty about "breaking" their vows.


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## justbidingtime (Sep 25, 2012)

PHTlump you make me laugh..... I think the two deserve each other. I have empathy for those in sexless marriages and unfulfilled lives (been there, done that got the tshirt), just don't like the way he stated it and how full of himself he is.

What he said in the OP tells me more then I need to know that he turns me off with his braggadocios behaviour and comments about it all being about him.

Below is the OP and I will highlight the salient points imo.

"We have been a couple for 23 years and married for 20. We now have 2 beautiful and healthy Teenagers. *Pretty normal sex life to start* (_i.e. normal not exciting or over the top_), you know making babies. Very normal loving family home life. 

*Wife had no interest in any Oral Sex till I asked 10 years ago* _(If you have not had oral for the first 13 years, why do you expect it out of the blue ater 13 years????)_while on vacation on an incredibly romantic island. Her response was "I'd do it if you really want me to". Bad Sign. Very little interest still. 

*Over the years I have tried to interest her in toys, games, oils and lubes all again to little or no interest. Porn would be a horror for her.* _(why do you keep trying without discussing it or stating why you are interested in it)_

*In the last few years, very few orgasms on her part*_(what about her orgasms throughout the years)_, always in the missionary position, maybe her on top a couple of times per year. After sex, she is completely exhausted, even without having an orgasm. She does not even fake it. More and more its just a HJ as she has no energy or passion. 

*Sometimes Oral on her, but rare*_(doesn't sound like he is making a huge effort into it too)_.

*The other night, a complete disaster when I tried to play out a fantasy with her during a HJ (intercourse was out of the question) and she angrily got up and said "this does not turn me on at all" and she got up and got dressed and went to sleep, leaving me stunned.*_(why would he have though that would work?)_ 
What is strange is that she knows how much love and passion I have her, yet there is nothing reciprocating. 

*I should have picked up the signs over the years that sex is not something she enjoys, and not bought and then thrown out all the romantic toys.* _(Duhhhhh)_Sex is now once a week or less. 

*Last month, trying to be open, I asked her if she masturbated if I am away for a night or two, and she said sometimes, but I know she is lying, as we are together almost constantly, and she has no toys or lubes what so ever.* _(AFter 23 years!!!!!!! Are you kidding and expect a different answer?_ 

The Hitachi Magic Wand if got her for XMASS, thrown out years ago. I should have asked that question at the start, *as it turns out she is not a sensual being at all* _(He knew it from the beginning)_, very beautiful, but now cold. Maybe she has fallen out of love with me, and can't tell me. The thing is I am in terrific shape and a great lover. I feel great love and compassion for all, and I want to share that with her. Nothing back at all. I think our marriage is close to dead as there is no spiritual or emotional connection at all. I think I have been a terrific husband and don't deserve to now be locked in a loveless marriage for the rest of my life. She could care less about my needs, and its not just about sex. She has no interest in me at all. Maybe the kids burned her out. Maybe depression. Maybe 23 years is to long. Surely Menopause is involved as she is close to 50. She could have a great lover for the rest of her life but is to narcissistic to see that. I have never been more depressed about having so much love to give and its just going to an empty soul. At this point, I really don't want to be intimate at all with her. It will never be the same. Maybe thats what she wants. I think I will stick it out for the next 5 years till the kids are in college and then either she cares for me with some passion or I am gone. How sad. Thanks for listening."


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

justbidingtime said:


> PHTlump you make me laugh..... I think the two deserve each other. I have empathy for those in sexless marriages and unfulfilled lives (been there, done that got the tshirt), just don't like the way he stated it and how full of himself he is.


You equally flummox me. I don't know if you're hostile to sex in general, or if you have something against the OP specifically. But nothing he has said is outrageous or deserving, in any way, of being sentenced to a passionless marriage.



justbidingtime said:


> What he said in the OP tells me more then I need to know that he turns me off with his braggadocios behaviour and comments about it all being about him.


If someone yearning for a sex life that the majority of couples enjoy makes that person selfish and braggadocios, then the vast majority of men, and women, are guilty as charged.



justbidingtime said:


> *Wife had no interest in any Oral Sex till I asked 10 years ago* _(If you have not had oral for the first 13 years, why do you expect it out of the blue ater 13 years????)_


You think a romantic trip to the islands is out of the blue? You're wrong. After the news on a Tuesday night is out of the blue. And it's still not unreasonable. Spending thousands of dollars to try to set the mood so that your frigid wife might deign to entertain the notion of something that most couples regularly enjoy is going above and beyond. The OP's mistake was not asking for oral. It was waiting 13 years to ask for oral.



justbidingtime said:


> *Over the years I have tried to interest her in toys, games, oils and lubes all again to little or no interest. Porn would be a horror for her.* _(why do you keep trying without discussing it or stating why you are interested in it)_


Again, you try things to see if you can spark interest. For most men, and many women, sex is a primary need. When one partner announces that the sex life is over, or will at least be passionless for the rest of their lives, most people will not accept that. I'm amazed that you think they should.



justbidingtime said:


> *In the last few years, very few orgasms on her part*_(what about her orgasms throughout the years)_


I assume that, since he wrote "in the last few years," that it was a change and that she was orgasmic before. He also wrote that he believes menopause is playing a role in her behavior.



justbidingtime said:


> *Sometimes Oral on her, but rare*_(doesn't sound like he is making a huge effort into it too)_.


It sounds like she won't let him do it. I don't recommend that he force himself on her.



justbidingtime said:


> *The other night, a complete disaster when I tried to play out a fantasy with her during a HJ (intercourse was out of the question) and she angrily got up and said "this does not turn me on at all" and she got up and got dressed and went to sleep, leaving me stunned.*_(why would he have though that would work?)_


Again, desperate people try desperate things. Who would have thought that 40 million women would be into the "50 Shades" BDSM scene? Not me. But you never know.

Again, this guy needs MMSL, NMMNG, and/or MEM's thermostat approach. Stop catering to this woman who is showing him nothing but contempt.


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## MarriedFor20Years (Sep 28, 2012)

Hey Everybody, thanks for the input!

Like I said, we have a very loving marriage, but no passion on her side. Over the years, we have communicated about experimenting, and thats been the reason for the gifts (oils, toys, lubes), but she is really not interested. I in no way have forced anything on her, and the best we have now is missionary 1x a week. It looks like that will be the status quo for a long time, maybe forever in our marriage. After reviewing other posts on this board, maybe thats not so bad. Maybe she is resentful, is not happy with me, is in menopause, depressed, etc, but, we are in the prime of our lives, should not great sex be a part of that?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

MarriedFor20Years said:


> ... the best we have now is missionary 1x a week. It looks like that will be the status quo for a long time, maybe forever in our marriage. After reviewing other posts on this board, maybe thats not so bad. Maybe she is resentful, is not happy with me, is in menopause, depressed, etc, but, we are in the prime of our lives, should not great sex be a part of that?


It will only be the status quo in your marriage if you accept it. If you're willing to accept it, then I suggest you just go to your doctor and start on anti-depressants. You'll need them.

If you want to improve your sex life, you need to take action. You need to improve yourself and your life to the point that, either your wife really wants to get you in the bedroom, or another woman will.

Good luck.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

Perhaps you just have to accept thats she's just not that into you as you are at the moment. That may or may not mean that it can be turned around. After 20 years of marriage ( 23 years in a relationship for me - married 15 of those/2 kids ) there is usually some underlying issues for both of you. 


My wife has told me that my HD is my problem. As in, too bad, deal with it. To me that tells me that she has no interest in my needs and is not willing to put in any effort to change for the good of the relationship as she is "fine" with herself. Yet at the same time she demands monogamy ( i'm cool with monogamy btw). Last night as she was going to bed I said to her, in a tactful tone, "for 15 to 20 years it's been whatever you like honey, oh your to tired, it's the wrong time of day, you need some "you" time/space, your behind on ........ , your not in the mood, oh okay whatever you like because I respect your needs. I wonder when you'll start respecting mine the same way I respect your's" To that she replied " Your so hard done by" 

With that reply she is telling me that my needs are out of line, they're unimportant, I'm selfish and, she is trying to make me feel bad about and belittle what I need. 

I went to sleep on the couch as my stomach was in knots and I could not sleep in the same bed as her. I woke up to her clanging in the kitchen at about 6:15am. She said she was sorry. ( for what I don't know ). I said "don't worry about it, it's my fault". Meaning it's my fault I allowed myself to put up with this sh*t for far to long. I've had sex once in the last 2 months. I can count with 2 fingers the number of times I have gotten a BJ. She tells me she had a bad experience (28 years ago) and that's why she's uncomfortable doing it. 

Are there things in life that just can't be fixed? They are so broken they are beyond repair. Are people even willing fix them? Does it just makes more sense to cut your loses and start over? These are the hard questions I have been asking myself. I keep picturing a tan coloured legal sized envelope with divorce documents inside. There comes a point when the plane is going down when you need to, for the good of yourself and others put your oxygen mask on first.


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## fetishwife (Apr 22, 2012)

CanadianGuy....

look at the quote in your signature......

read MMSL primer before you give up.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

CanadianGuy said:


> Perhaps you just have to accept thats she's just not that into you as you are at the moment. That may or may not mean that it can be turned around. After 20 years of marriage ( 23 years in a relationship for me - married 15 of those/2 kids ) there is usually some underlying issues for both of you.
> 
> 
> My wife has told me that my HD is my problem. As in, too bad, deal with it. To me that tells me that she has no interest in my needs and is not willing to put in any effort to change for the good of the relationship as she is "fine" with herself. Yet at the same time she demands monogamy ( i'm cool with monogamy btw). Last night as she was going to bed I said to her, in a tactful tone, "for 15 to 20 years it's been whatever you like honey, oh your to tired, it's the wrong time of day, you need some "you" time/space, your behind on ........ , your not in the mood, oh okay whatever you like because I respect your needs. I wonder when you'll start respecting mine the same way I respect your's" To that she replied " Your so hard done by"
> ...


Another case of a wife knowing that you won't leave or make her face any real consequence so she'll not have to change. People get offended at "ultimatums" and nice guys refuse to leave or really put their foot down (and let's face it, all Canadians are nice guys lol). So, you get what you get.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

fetishwife said:


> CanadianGuy....
> 
> look at the quote in your signature......
> 
> read MMSL primer before you give up.


Have read it. On my third read. What is my wife reading / doing? Nothing.......


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Another case of a wife knowing that you won't leave or make her face any real consequence so she'll not have to change. People get offended at "ultimatums" and nice guys refuse to leave or really put their foot down (and let's face it, all Canadians are nice guys lol). So, you get what you get.


So true WOM. Canadians are nice eh. Which brings to mind a quote " If you continue to do what you've always done you'll get what you've always gotten" - I have tried so many different ways/things etc I should have a PHD. At the very least I know I've earned a certificate in hoop jumping. lol. 

Didn't mean to hijack the thread. Was meant as perspective and insight for the OP.


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## fetishwife (Apr 22, 2012)

CanadianGuy...

You are to be commended for trying....I assume you didnt just read the book...I assume you are now in shape or even buff or at least well defined..(Im a smaller dude 143 5' 7' so Im muscularly defined now, not buff though...)....

I can not STRESS enough how my body change had an effect on my LD wife......

She will LIE LIE LIE hamster about it when asked directly...but hints about it all the time during sex, before, etc..."you looks so manly, you look so sexy" etc....

Ok we are working on her being more expressive...but this is all fairly new.

Still overall I dont think she looks at my body or men's bodies much...but I'm sure its a 100% help vs the 185 pounder 5 7 I used to be years ago with 37 waist vs my 30 now.

My clothes and head shave helped...

All this along with my DEMANDS not begging...for more sex...plus IC/MC....

My wife is a great person though...I know she does love me a lot...and I know that she has a very hard time with sex...and LOW LOW Drive.....I have to initiate almost all the time except maybe 2 Sundays a month...has to be Sunday am for her with ZERO other immediate responsibilities...

Another huge factor was getting her home from work EARLIER! Now she has time to go to bed early vs working on email till 10:30 at night.

I also did have a bad temper about all this for some period of time, bought a condo, constantly threatened to leave her etc etc....occasionally slept over at a guy friends house...came home late on a Friday night making her very angry etc etc...kinda bad boy stuff....

She believed me that I would leave her..and I believed myself.

Now as long as I initiate I seem to be getting as much sex as I want most days (up to max of 2x per day on say one weekend day if I really push)...

She is not into sex...she only has O's say 1-2x per month on her Sunday times....she has issues about sex that run very deep....

BUT....it CAN be done.....IF she wants you with her badly enough.....I went from 4-5 times per month to 4-5 times per week so far for the last 4 months or so and this is DURING me continuing to be difficult and even angry with her. 

Im not sure if its the difficult and angry that worked or her mid 40's age or her realization that its more love and intimacy and sex or no more me.....

Or if its just getting over the HUMP of it and making her realize that its not "so bad" after all....

But there is no way my LD wife is going to initiate 4-5 times per week....even when she rarely initiates is based upon us "normally" having sex Sundays...so she expects it.....or I say something like "Im coming in to take a shower with you" and then she asks after a while if I would like "shower sex.." 

I have to face the reality that mostly she is "doing it for me"....but she likes the closeness much more now that she is used to it....

We had a stretch for 6 days a couple weeks ago where I was upset about something and when we did it again she noted "I have not felt you for 2 weeks!" it had been 5-6 days....so she did miss the closeness....

She does NOT crave the orgasms though like most guys and HD women....its just not the way she is...

Im hoping that she wont go down as perimeno approaches but maybe that small chance of her getting increased drive in perimeno like some women will happen...

In any case...Im making having sex EVERY DAY....the DEFAULT..since she is a person of routine and pattern.....

Make the DEFAULT to sex and not DEFAULT to no sex.

If she really does not love you and or is not IN LOVE with you...then Im not sure my method will work.

This was my issue too...my CLEAR MESSAGE to her was IF YOU DONT WANT TO HAVE SEX THEN YOU MUST NOT BE IN LOVE WITH ME....SO ADMIT IT!

She really thought about this and decided I was the love of her life and has made this clear.

I know this sounds needy...but its not really...because I tempered it with a lot of angry behavior and alpha behavior too.....IF YOU DONT SOMEONE ELSE WILL!!!

By the way Im NON Beta to a fault...I forgot our anniversary yesterday...oops....I forgot to get her a Bday card last year....I dont do crap for her and I only get her small inexpensive gifts...
I got her flowers twice..USELESS!!! Did nothing!

I do make equal to her income....deal with the house externally...deal with money in the house...etc so those are beta things...

Im NOT very nice...Im cranky...cynical..etc.

So go figure....

Im going for sex daily and if I get 4 times per week for as long as Im able then I think Ill live with that....


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

PHTlump said:


> Wrong. What is ballsy is to marry a man you are not attracted to, make a claim on his labor for decades, and then deny him intimacy for so long that he is reduced to a quivering, simpering, wreck. For a man in that situation to grasp at straws in order to spark some interest from his wife is completely understandable. It's quite cold-hearted to suggest otherwise.
> 
> I have no doubt that the OP's wife did not present that picture when he was courting her. Oh, I'm sure that she wasn't very sexual. But I would be shocked if she told him, "Look, I'll put up with duty sex once a week or less. But I'll never enjoy it and I'll always try to make you feel bad about it." If she really said something along those lines, then I agree with you. The OP got what he asked for.
> 
> ...


Good points. I'm sure I grasped at straws a lot of times trying to spark some interest in my x wife. I'm sure i took the wrong path many times, but living each day with a burning desire for your wife, yet not getting to do anything about it just turns one into an emotional mess. 

My wife just never was a very sexual person. She seemed to enjoy it when we had sex, and there were times when she seemed really in the mood, but she certainly didn't need it often. She would have freaked out if I had suggested toys or anything spicy.


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## fetishwife (Apr 22, 2012)

Southbound...

Was that the final straw in your divorce then? Low sex quantity?

I would not blame you one bit.


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## russ101 (Jan 8, 2010)

my wife and I have reached a point where she is now in her late 40's and in menopause. I have always had a high sex drive and up until 6 years ago she had an average sex drive (I could have it every day, she wanted it about 3-4 times per month). Our sex life went from 5-8 times a month with lots of kissing, oral, different positions etc., to six times a year, with the last one being over 3 months ago. For the last 4 years it pretty much has been me asking her, she finally agreeing then on her terms (no kissing, foreplay, lights out and she just lays there until I am done, unless I take more than 10 minutes then she acts like it is hurting her and tells me I need to finish (I'm in good shape and 155 lbs).

3 months ago she said she was done with sex until I start making more money and can move her into a larger house (along with a lot of other demands). I truely believe that even if I could meet them, she wouln't improve much because she just doesn't have the desire anymore, and is using her resentment issues as an excuse.

I really don't want the kind of duty sex she was offering anymore anyway. I am to a point in my life where I am thinking like the poster where as soon as the kids leave, I'm gone too. 

My friends have recommended to me to go on a site where married people who's spouses don't want to have sex anymore hook up with others in the same boat to meet their needs. I know many will tell me to just divorce and not cheat, but I can''t do that to my 3 kids. I honestly think that this will probably be the best option until they leave the house and am seriously considering it. 

I just don't think that LD people know what it is like for the HD person to go without sex for long periods of time, and I really don't want to have sex with someone who doesn't want it. Sorry for the long rant, but reading all of these posts really hits home for me.


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## fetishwife (Apr 22, 2012)

russ101...

See if she will get to the doctor...a good one.....if she used to be interested and there is love there....

Also...run the MAP from MMSL....if she knows you WILL leave and you put your foot down...be the man..etc....that might perk her up....

That sex you are getting is the "hate you with her vagina" type sex and its not satisfying hardly at all......although it still may be better than nothing...

Try MC/IC if you can afford it. 

Stay away from her BS about IF YOU GIVE ME "x thing" then Ill give you more sex. 

That probably wont work.


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## russ101 (Jan 8, 2010)

she is not interested in any doctors. She doesn't think it is important anymore. She has a lot of resentment issues that is coming into play too. I have thought about leaving her, but in reality probably won't until the kids are grown. After that (5 years until the last one is out), if things have not changed dramatically by then, I am absolutley out of there.


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## fetishwife (Apr 22, 2012)

As long as she knows you wont leave...from what you describe she wont change...although she must have SOME concern to even do the submitting to you that she is doing.

If you are angry and hurt all the time...will that really be best for your kids?


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## russ101 (Jan 8, 2010)

i keep hoping it will chang. Probably not going to though, she has too many resentment issues coupled with the fact that she has gained weight over the years (I still think she is hot, and tell her that often), and has a very low image of herself. 

I guess I'm mainly here for the kids now. Not worth leaving to only see them once every other weekend. After they are grown, if it is still the same, I am definitley gone. My only regret is that I will be about 55 before that happens.


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## fetishwife (Apr 22, 2012)

I recently read a great summary of the problems of a LD wife...

(1) She must be made to feel unsafe being non-sexual
(2) She must be made to feel safe being sexual

In my own marriage I never knew these things until recently.

I implemented (1) by almost leaving to move into my own place.
I am working on (2) as I have messed this up quite a bit in the past but Im getting better at it.

Neither one will work is she is not attracted to you. However I think (1) can make her feel more attracted to you and (2) can keep her more attracted to you.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Turns out OPs wife has been getting her needs filled elsewhere. He has anew thread in coping with infidelity. 

So much for those giviing him hell.


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## Still Interested (Mar 10, 2013)

I posted something similar just a few minutes ago, same with my wife. I am beginning to believe more and more in pure chemistry, and it sounds like you don't have it with her and I wonder if it is something that can be fixed. I feel the same, it would crush her to leave her, but its crushing you emotionally to stay. I don't think it is enough to just be "given" sex, duty, I want to be wanted and I think thats what you want.

I feel your pain and its not easy.


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## fetishwife (Apr 22, 2012)

If there is love and respect there then sexual relationship can change even under very difficult circumstances...I am living proof of this but it was far from easy going.

I had this problem with my wife for a long time..no initiation from her hardly ever, no orgasms, mostly refusal other than once per week...(which is far from enough for me)..

..she is actually somewhat better now that she is older....she hardly ever turns me down and even if not particularly in the mood she acts nice about it...although she will sometimes tell me to hurry up...annoying things like that.

.and now that I know about all her mental fetish issues.....she is 46. Not meno yet. Sometimes this stage of life women can get more interested, sometimes less...she initiates a lot more now than ever before..maybe 1x per week..but its probably cause she knows that I EXPECT her to do it...so its happening these days.

One thing that irritates me is that she is almost never "available" for sex on workday mornings....she always has to get max sleep...but otherwise she claims she is more in the mood in the am...

Recently I tried to break this habit one Friday am (a work day for her)..I got rebuffed that am...she was still sleeping and likes to sleep until the point where she just has enough time to get ready for wk...but she was really nervous and really expected me to be really pissed about it...as I certainly have been in the past..

I was not pissed externally...I didnt show any emotion about it..I was not Mr. Happy either...just neutral......so later that day when she came home she had her tail between her legs and made it clear that she was available to me that night.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

fetishwife said:


> *If there is love and respect there *then sexual relationship can change even under very difficult circumstances...I am living proof of this but it was far from easy going.
> 
> I had this problem with my wife for a long time..no initiation from her hardly ever, no orgasms, mostly refusal other than once per week...(which is far from enough for me)..
> 
> ...


So love and respect leads to you trying to "break her" of hating workday morning sex, and leads to your wife coming home with her tail between her legs because she turned you down for morning sex, which you well knew she isn't up for on workday mornings. 

Sorry, where exactly is your love and respect for her there?


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## fetishwife (Apr 22, 2012)

Hi Nora..well sorry this is getting off the thread here...but I feel that you are attacking a bit there so Im going to reply...

So to love and respect her Im not allowed to try to change her and not allowed to be pissed about behaviors that I dont like or be upset when my needs are not being met? 

Not the case in my world. I get to feel love, and feel respect for her as a person overall, but I also get to not be happy about things that I dont like or needs that I have that are not being met.

You know the biggest lie I see perpetrated about relationships is that you can't change the other person, you can only change yourself....

Guess what? My wife decided to change in many ways when it became clear that was her only option...short of seeing that she was going to lose me...she would not change a lot of things that were unacceptable to me.

Guess what...? She is now HAPPY about all the changes I "forced" on her..and bad habits that I "broke."

Anyway...I was not claiming to be a model of loving and respecting my own wife..

The sum total happens to be that I am bonded to her emotionally, we have a 12 year old, we have a life and history together, we mostly share the same values....and its convenient to stay together. In addition, the alternative of being alone is not attractive to me. The second alternative of finding another woman is a crap shoot. Could be much better..or could be I'm more miserable for the rest of my life. I dont know. 

Now...

..I absolutely DO NOT love and respect EVERYTHING about her! 

There is nothing wrong with that. No one is perfect...not me..not her....

I love SOME things about her..and I respect SOME things about her...probably most of the time I love more that I dont...overall the sum total of my feelings is that I have respect for her..but she has done a lot of stuff in our lives that I do not respect. Im sure she feels the same way about me.

Basically, I stay with my relationship because I know that and we are shooting for "good enough" after 23+ years. I do buy what the MC said to us that its pretty rare to find a perfect mate. 50% of people at least end up with divorce. Many of the ones that dont divorce end up as room mates....

I am realistic enough to know that although I might find a period of more happiness and plain fun with another woman for a while...in the longer term I'd probably be in the same situation in one way or another...if my replacement relationship was better sexually, it would probably have some other problem that I dont have now.

.now I most certainly do not have any problem whatsoever telling her my needs, responding negatively at times and as needed when my clearly expressed needs are not being met.

I was making a point to the people who are having sexual trouble with their spouses...

IF their wives still love and respect them..then its possible for their sexual problems to improve....that is all I was saying.

My wife knows very well how I feel so there is no mystery.

She knows perfectly well that I feel that our relationship is a compromise for me. She knows perfectly well that her sexual problems have been a serious impediment to our life together and that trying to cover it all up for many years really hurt me deeply and nearly cost us our marriage...(my wife has a fetish that apparently makes her very ashamed of herself....she cant really get heavily into sex without her fetish thought...but she feels bad thinking about it....catch 22...Ive worked with this, but due to the secret keeping and lying...its been very difficult to stay positive about it all the time....extensive IC and therapy 10 years ago and 1 year ago...better but there is no cure for a fetishist. She knows perfectly well that she kept all this from me prior to getting married and then for many more years after that....all the while telling me nothing was wrong despite my extensive efforts to figure things out. Anyway...its a long story.

I love and respect her despite the fact that according to her sex is uncomfortable to her because of her needs to fantasize about her fetish. Its been pretty hard to deal with this...and its been pretty hard to deal with the fact that she did not disclose any of this to me prior to marriage....and it was not for lack of asking and trying on my part.

She just does not experience sex the same way as I (or probably most people) do....the thing that turns her on is not a sexual thing to anyone Ive ever heard or read about....its peripherally associated with a taboo subject....its certainly NOT sexual to me..I dont get it at all...Ive tried..but she has difficulty including me in it anyway...although she has tried a couple times....mostly she blocked me out of it..

...its not something she would ever look for in a real life partner.....its not dangerous...but she finds it shameful especially because its associated with something that society finds totally unacceptable....but she would never act upon it.

Still I cant understand it...I think having a strong fetish like this is basically equivalent to ones sexual orientation. Its something she should have told me about..I had a right to know before marriage that she cant complete sex without including something outside of "us"....

In fact her entire sexuality is associated with things outside of the relationship...for example she has always also (independent of her fetish which is required for orgasm)...had intense crush/obsessions on a parade of actors/celebrities. She gets into one of them for a year or so and then goes dormant until another one strikes her...

Its at the point where she knows Im tired of it..Ive tried indulging her as it would often lead to her being sexually proactive with me...but after 20 movies, websites, books, etc it starts to look like she is in love with the guy and I finally got fed up with this...but I went with it for quite some time...she just never knows when to quit.

So Im already dealing with a person who is highly complex....not to mention that she has been incredibly rigid in many parts of our life...as an example.....I had to fight with her years ago just to take our first vacation to a tropical island...not because we didnt have the $, not because of fear of flying...but because she thought that her parents would think it was too expensive and too decadent....now she loves them of course. This same type of problem has been going on with us for 20+ years....I fight her to get her to try something new...then she is always happy I did...but Im usually resentful that I had to fight her practically to the death about it...and of course she forgets that she ever objected in the first place.

Now as to the specifics, I DO NOT love how she never wants to have sex on weekday mornings and I don't respect her on that issue either...as there is no real reason other than mental...its stupid and rigid....plus it hurts me.

I do think its a HABIT...since she is perfectly fine with sex on non-workday mornings....and I do think its a BAD HABIT because its very troublesome to me some of the time and its bad for the relationship..

I would respect a real compromise....but NEVER on a weekday morning...that is not a compromise...its her getting her way on that issue ALL THE TIME.....in fact Id probably be much happier with a lopsided compromise, such as sex once during the work week...but never during the workweek is not a compromise..it is a habit that I have every right to try to break....and its a stupid habit....she needs to learn to relax a bit about work.

I do not feel bad about wanting to change her..I do not think this means I dont love her or respect her. I do think it means Im looking out for myself and Im needing to at least attempt to get my needs met.

FYI...my wife does not have to work and I would be more than happy to fully support her in the exact same lifestyle that she has now.....I earn enough....she also does not need to work such a hard schedule that she is so tired on weekdays..but she chooses to do it against my wishes...and I do respect her desire to work when it deserves my respect...

For example..for many years her schedule was out of control for no good reason other than the fact that she was stubborn and was letting her business partners control her life....

I did not respect that about her and I (finally after many years of asking nicely) demanded that it change so she could come home and have dinner with our teen and myself....

My wife is a high powered professional person...this happened slowly over the years, but I did know I was not getting a SAH wife...do I wish I had that...yes...I now do wish she would just not work. However, I respect her desire to work and she works!

My wife is a bit unusual sexually...I don't LOVE that about her. I guess I respect that she has this unusual fetish.


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