# I am the "Bad Guy"



## boyjeff (Sep 11, 2013)

Hi all, pleased to meet you, as a forum frequenter for some of my hobbies I think I might be able to gather some useful information here, maybe even improve my life. I have a long intro story so please bear with me. I found this forum by searching on "my wife hates me" so that is the benchmark we can start with.

I am a 50 something man, physically fit, easily look 10 years younger, well educated, professional executive, high income bracket. All in all if I was "on the market" I would probably seem like a dream come true, but I am not on the market I am in a dysfunctional marriage to a woman who I used to think was my soulmate, and who I now think considers me public enemy #1 

I met my current wife when we were both in our 20's, we met at a summer place of employment and hit it off right away. At the time she had a boyfriend she was intent on marrying, and although I persisted for years to try and make the relationship more than platonic, she would not relent. I eventually found a charming country girl who I married at the age of 33, my "ex" married her boyfriend. We both went to each others wedding. Fast forward 15 years, and "ex" starts calling me, wanting to rekindle our friendship and inviting me out for lunch, which seemed a bit clandestine, but at the time I was bored out of my mind with country girl (wife #1) and thought the titilation might wake me up a bit. Needless to say we embarked on a torrid affair, that ended my marriage and as it turns out hers was already done as husband #1 had already left her for reasons I would find out. 

The "ex" was very good at manipulation, and while in the throws of her sexual intoxication she mentioned she was seeing a couple of other men as well, one of which was a man she had cheated on her husband with throughout their marriage. This was a painful revelation for me and really the reason her marriage ended, although she would tell me her husband was a drug addict and was abusive. Perhaps he was, I never really knew him and he had already left her. 

To make a long story short I divorced wife #1, she divorced husband #1 and we moved in together, and eventually married in a small private ceremony. I will say that the first 3 years of our relationship were among the happiest of my life in terms of sexual satisfaction. I truly felt like I had won the sexual lottery and there were no fantasies left unfulfilled. As her happiness was the most important thing to me, and she had always been sad about the fact she was never going to have kids we embarked on a new journey to become parents. It was difficult for her to conceive, but we eventually succeeded and had a beautiful baby girl, followed by a sister 2 years later. This is where things started to unravel.

I had prepared myself for the fact that my wife would not have as much time for me while taking care of the babies, and would be tired, but I was not prepared for having the switch turned off. We had gone from a very frequent sex life (multiple times per week) to nothing in the span of about 1 year. Things slowed dramatically after birth #1, and pretty much ended after #2. I was frustrated, hurt, felt abandoned and rejected, but no amount of discussion seemed to be able to reverse the trend. On the few times I managed to coerce her into sex, her mind was elsewhere, worrying if the kids were OK, or if they might walk in. At one point she told me she was fearful of getting pregant because pregnancy #2 was very problematic and we were done at 2. She said I need a vasectomy to make her feel comfortable with sex again. Maybe she thought I would never agree to this and could use the pregnancy fear card forever. Anyway I got the V and nothing changed. 

Well one thing changed, which was a married co-worker who was a confidant started to get very protective of me and thought my wife was totally unappreciative (like her husband) and to make another long story short I began another torrid affair with her that ended in heartbreak for both of us after 3 years. At which point we decided to end our marriages and be together, but she changed her mind, unfortunately the damage had been done as the spouses had been informed of the decision. That was 10 years ago, and yes I am sure you all see the pattern. 

So the next 5 years at home were hell, but I committed to be there for my wife and kids. I didn't want them being raised by a single parent or a step father, and I truly hoped that my wife and I might reconnect at some point. We sought counseling, but unfortunately my wife's anger would not subside and I lived in the house as the enemy, and my wife relished in her role as the victim. 

As my kids got older my wife realized her toxic attitude was impacting them so she called a "truce" and we agreed to do the best things for our kids, which was to try to get along maybe even like each other. For the longest time I refused to take them on vacation because I assumed my wife and I could fight at home for free. As things have improved we have been venturing out and even took a lovely trip to Paris last year although it was far from romantic, it was still nice and my kids enjoyed it. 

So that brings me up to today (although many details have been omitted). I don't remember the last time I had sex with my wife (I truly don't) it has been years. I don't remember the last time she touched me in a suggestive way, or kissed me like she meant it. I have tried to kindle a flame, I tell her she is pretty, I find her attractive, I complement her on her clothes, and youthful looks, I tell her I would like us to be more intimate with each other. But there is never any reciprocity. A few weeks ago I was working from home, we had been getting along particularly well, the kids were out of the house and I gave her a big hug and told her how attracted I was to her and that she was beautiful. Later, I went upstairs as she was in the bedroom, and she had the covers wrapped TIGHT around her as she told me about her splitting headache. That message came through loud an clear as "DON'T TOUCH ME"

So I don't know what to do, I am not abusive, I don't drink, gamble or philander. I make a comfortable income, we live in a nice house in a nice neighborhood, my kids go to private school, and all in all I think we are a totally dysfunctional family. My wife is very well educated, but she seems content to shop and pretend that somehow I am the source of what is wrong in our life. I read somewhere that one of the things I should do is stop thinking as if a divorce is the inevitable future, but I find myself counting how many years until my kids will be out of college, so I can abandon my unsatisfying marriage and find happiness, either with someone else, or just myself.

That's my very abbreviated intro, I hope I might learn something here that might improve things at home. There are tonnes of details I have left out as the story is long enough as it is. I will just say I am at the point in my life where I am not looking for someone else to make me happy, I try to do the things that make me feel good about myself (read, exercise spend time with the kids), but I know deep down inside that things could be so much better if my wife and I could somehow reconnect, but at this point I wonder if there is just so much bad blood between us that it is as good as it is going to get.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I think this is one of those situations where you've been run over by the karma bus but you seem to have missed seeing it somehow. 

You cheated on your first wife with a known serial cheater. You then divorced your wife and married a woman you knew was a serial cheater. Then you cheated on her. My guess is that she has done the same to you from time to time. I'm not sure what you hoped to achieve in the realm of lasting happiness with a marriage between two people who patently know they cannot trust one another. You're both living proof that if he/she will cheat with you, he/she will cheat on you. This marriage was pretty much doomed to this end before it even got started. 

That said, there may be some hope for you yet. I would recommend that you purchase the two books _Lovebusters_ and _His Needs, Her Needs_, both by Willard Harley. Read them - either together if she's willing, or by yourself for now if she's not - and begin implementing what you learn into your interactions. In order for your marriage to be an emotionally safe, loving, happy union, I'm pretty sure both of you will need to radically overhaul your relationship, as well as your lifestyles and even your values.

If that sounds like something you aren't up for, or if you both don't eventually buy into major changes in the relationship, then it's probably best to call it quits and split as amicably as possible. You're deluding yourself if you think staying together for the kids, with a marriage in the shape yours is in, is in their best interests somehow. Trust me, your kids know their parents are unhappy. Would you want them to take the marriage you're in as an example of what to strive for - or even merely accept - in their own relationships?


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## awake1 (Jan 29, 2013)

boyjeff said:


> I met my current wife when we were both in our 20's, we met at a summer place of employment and hit it off right away. At the time she had a boyfriend she was intent on marrying, and although I persisted for years to try and make the relationship more than platonic, she would not relent. I eventually found a charming country girl who I married at the age of 33, my "ex" married her boyfriend. We both went to each others wedding. Fast forward 15 years, and "ex" starts calling me, wanting to rekindle our friendship and inviting me out for lunch, which seemed a bit clandestine, but at the time I was bored out of my mind with country girl (wife #1) and thought the titilation might wake me up a bit. Needless to say we embarked on a torrid affair, that ended my marriage and as it turns out hers was already done as husband #1 had already left her for reasons I would find out.


This is a great way to start a doomed relationship.

Relationships that begin during affairs have a very, very low probability of working out long term. On the order of less than 1 in 10. Some peg the number closer to 5 out of 100.

There's a lot of reasons why. But it's not chance or freak circumstance. 

There's a correlation between cheating and an inability to have stable relationships, whether there's cheating in the future or not. 

Some wake up. Others continue blame shifting on others their own faults, and using it as justification for unwise future behavior. 


boyjeff said:


> The "ex" was very good at manipulation, and while in the throws of her sexual intoxication she mentioned she was seeing a couple of other men as well, one of which was a man she had cheated on her husband with throughout their marriage. This was a painful revelation for me and really the reason her marriage ended, although she would tell me her husband was a drug addict and was abusive. Perhaps he was, I never really knew him and he had already left her.
> 
> I had prepared myself for the fact that my wife would not have as much time for me while taking care of the babies, and would be tired, but I was not prepared for having the switch turned off. We had gone from a very frequent sex life (multiple times per week) to nothing in the span of about 1 year. Things slowed dramatically after birth #1, and pretty much ended after #2. I was frustrated, hurt, felt abandoned and rejected, but no amount of discussion seemed to be able to reverse the trend. On the few times I managed to coerce her into sex, her mind was elsewhere, worrying if the kids were OK, or if they might walk in. At one point she told me she was fearful of getting pregant because pregnancy #2 was very problematic and we were done at 2. She said I need a vasectomy to make her feel comfortable with sex again. Maybe she thought I would never agree to this and could use the pregnancy fear card forever. Anyway I got the V and nothing changed.


Because she cheated on husband #1, there's a possibility it wasn't the kids at all but another man. 

Regardless at some point post baby #1 she lost attraction to you for whatever reason. 


boyjeff said:


> Well one thing changed, which was a married co-worker who was a confidant started to get very protective of me and thought my wife was totally unappreciative (like her husband) and to make another long story short I began another torrid affair with her that ended in heartbreak for both of us after 3 years. At which point we decided to end our marriages and be together, but she changed her mind, unfortunately the damage had been done as the spouses had been informed of the decision. That was 10 years ago, and yes I am sure you all see the pattern.


Yikes.


boyjeff said:


> So the next 5 years at home were hell, but I committed to be there for my wife and kids. I didn't want them being raised by a single parent or a step father, and I truly hoped that my wife and I might reconnect at some point. We sought counseling, but unfortunately my wife's anger would not subside and I lived in the house as the enemy, and my wife relished in her role as the victim.


To be fair you did make her the victim. 


boyjeff said:


> So I don't know what to do, I am not abusive,
> I don't drink, gamble or philander. I make a comfortable income, we live in a nice house in a nice neighborhood, my kids go to private school, and all in all I think we are a totally dysfunctional family. My wife is very well educated, but she seems content to shop and pretend that somehow I am the source of what is wrong in our life. I read somewhere that one of the things I should do is stop thinking as if a divorce is the inevitable future, but I find myself counting how many years until my kids will be out of college, so I can abandon my unsatisfying marriage and find happiness, either with someone else, or just myself.


You already abandoned your marriage. 

That's probably issue #1. 

To have never been through the betrayal yourself, and even before I myself went through it, understanding the devastation can be hard. 

She would have felt unloved, cast aside, objectified, and more. 

2-5 years is an average healing time from an affair _with help_. Without it can be longer, or never. 

She probably has deep scars from all this, and no one can blame her. To you this affair might seem like a distant memory. 

But to her she might have daily reminders. The hurt could be as fresh as the day it happened. 

If she lacks the proper coping skills, or never developed them, her chosen alternative may have been passive aggressiveness. She might not wish to reconnect figuring you'll cheat again. 

Everyone has needs, whether physical or emotional. But ask any couple who's been married 20, 30, 50 years and they'll say there were probably years without sex. Hard times from stress, kids, life, whatever. There will be times when the wife withholds sex, or the husband works until 9 pm. 

These rare life upheavals or sacrifices come with the territory. IMO it's only an issue if it becomes the norm. 

My guess is she got depressed after baby #1, and never quite recovered because she never got the proper support and help she needed. Or, she cheated on you too. Just like her previous husband. 

She probably needs individual counseling, and I think you do too. If she chooses to, marriage counseling would help too. 

But in the end it's her choice to reconcile with you. She will or won't and you can't force her.


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## boyjeff (Sep 11, 2013)

Rowan said:


> I think this is one of those situations where you've been run over by the karma bus but you seem to have missed seeing it somehow.
> 
> You cheated on your first wife with a known serial cheater. You then divorced your wife and married a woman you knew was a serial cheater. Then you cheated on her. My guess is that she has done the same to you from time to time.


my dogma has certainly been run over by my karma, but the reality is that I didn't know my wife was a serial cheater, that didn't come out until much later. the way the picture was painted is that the husband was abusive, an alcoholic and drug addict and left her, she said she had tried to "fix" him and had chased him down a few times but had given up and was now playing the field as a divorce was going to cost her legal fees she didn't have (this is what she said). The reality is that husband #1 left because he found out about the BF who was never given up. I didn't find this out until I confessed about the affair, at which point we were both coming clean with each other. there were no revelations about her still seeing the old BF, maybe she is but I doubt it. It felt like when we came together that we could finally jettison the baggage of the past and find the happiness that had been intended for us. When I said I thought she was my soulmate this wasn't just a cliche, I truly felt a deep connection. 

I know in marriage counseling the therapist had been astonished that my wife and i had both cheated on our spouses yet my wife was so upset about my last affair as if it should have occurred to her another one was inevitable. like i said lots of water under the bridge, i just wonderr what can be salvaged. my deepest desire is for my kids happiness and i don't think a divirce is going to do that, nor do i think a loveless marriage will send the right signal either.


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## LonelyinLove (Jul 11, 2013)

Enjoying the underside of the karma bus?

You cheated on and dumped your first wife.

You cheated on fellow cheater wife #2.

No sympathy here. You reap what you sow.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

boyjeff said:


> my dogma has certainly been run over by my karma, but the reality is that I didn't know my wife was a serial cheater, that didn't come out until much later. the way the picture was painted is that the husband was abusive, an alcoholic and drug addict and left her, she said she had tried to "fix" him and had chased him down a few times but had given up and was now playing the field as a divorce was going to cost her legal fees she didn't have (this is what she said). The reality is that husband #1 left because he found out about the BF who was never given up. I didn't find this out until I confessed about the affair, at which point we were both coming clean with each other. there were no revelations about her still seeing the old BF, maybe she is but I doubt it. It felt like when we came together that we could finally jettison the baggage of the past and find the happiness that had been intended for us.


My apologies then. You didn't know your affair partner was a serial cheater. But you obviously _did_ know she would cheat on her husband. You were both very aware that each of you had "issues" with maintaining fidelity within a marriage. 

You will both need a lot of personal work and a lot of relationship work if either of you ever hopes to have a healthy marriage not marred by infidelity - whether with one another or with future spouses.


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## boyjeff (Sep 11, 2013)

awake1 said:


> My guess is she got depressed after baby #1, and never quite recovered because she never got the proper support and help she needed. Or, she cheated on you too. Just like her previous husband.
> 
> She probably needs individual counseling, and I think you do too. If she chooses to, marriage counseling would help too.
> 
> But in the end it's her choice to reconcile with you. She will or won't and you can't force her.


I think she had PPD after baby #1, she had confessed to this, I truly don't think she has cheated on me, maybe i'm wrong.

We have both had IC and MC, she is still in IC for anxiety. Yes it is her choice, which unfortunately I feel she made a long time ago and her pride won't let her forgive me.


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## boyjeff (Sep 11, 2013)

LonelyinLove said:


> Enjoying the underside of the karma bus?
> 
> You cheated on and dumped your first wife.
> 
> ...


I didn't ask for sympathy, I thought this was the men's clubhouse?


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

boyjeff said:


> I didn't ask for sympathy, I thought this was the men's clubhouse?


I was just wondering, do you want a new situation where you "don't have to cheat"? Or are you going to be single?


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## LonelyinLove (Jul 11, 2013)

boyjeff said:


> I didn't ask for sympathy, I thought this was the men's clubhouse?


Take a look at the Ladies Lounge, plenty of men post there. 

Did you think men would be more receptive to your, um, situation?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You forgot to mention, you have a great self image. 

What are you doing to GET her to like you?


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## bunny23 (May 19, 2011)

What is her emotional state?

Why is she having anxiety issues?

There is a lot going on here.. you state she is highly educated but is at home- why? 

You mention a lot about what you bring into the marriage but not what she does, what is her point of view?

What has she said in counselling regarding the sex and her low sex drive?

It really sounds like she resents you, the relationship... and possibly has some huge internal turmoil for some reason.

BTW the whole "don't touch me"? I was in this situation for the first time in my life maybe 3 years ago, right after my marriage started, and I had a VERY high sex drive. I was with a person before this relationship for 6-7 years and was married to him briefly and we NEVER had a sex problem.
My "new" hubby was an a$$, cheater and had anger issues. Yes the sex stopped. I didn't trust him and viewed him with a PHYSICAL repulsion. Plus he was a big mommy's boy...

We were just discussing family dynamic from a womans perspective in the general forum, and maybe in addition to the cheating she feels like she is 100% responsible for everything in the relationship.
That's not a turn on and it makes you look like a kid who needs mothering. 

To be honest this goes so deep for me that RIGHT NOW, 1 year after separation, even thinking about the act with my stbxh makes me gag.

I really felt that there was something wrong with me until my doctor told me that there is probably something wrong with my marriage.

It seems like you knew this woman so well and for such a long time.. but now everything has gone to sh**... there is no definite reason why. It's probably 100 reasons that both of you ignored.

I don't know if this is something to repair or if it has gone too far...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What are her top 3 complaints about you, over the years?


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## boyjeff (Sep 11, 2013)

treyvion said:


> I was just wondering, do you want a new situation where you "don't have to cheat"? Or are you going to be single?


i would like to reconnect with my wife and have her want me, that is by far the best solution. I have tried to be penitent for my past transgressions, I try to show my wife that I love her in many ways which I could give examples of if necessary. As far as I can tell she doesn't want what's broken fixed. When I get very critical of her it is easy for me to think she is only using me and giving nothing in return. If I asked her what she does for me given all that I provide for her, I am sure the answer would be somehow related to what she does for our kids and our home, but that's not for me, thats for them and her. She once told me in a rage the only things that were important in her life were her kids, her home and her husband. I told her she even got them in order of importance. 

I made the committment to stay married, but if one day she tells me she wants out then I guess I would understand. I would like an intimate relationship in my life I am still young feeling and thinking and I feel like that is slipping through my fingers. I doubt very seriously a 3rd marriage is in my future and being single probably wouldn't feel much different than my life does now.


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## boyjeff (Sep 11, 2013)

LonelyinLove said:


> Take a look at the Ladies Lounge, plenty of men post there.
> 
> Did you think men would be more receptive to your, um, situation?


was your initial comment supposed to be receptive? I guess I missed that. so what do you suggest I do?


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## boyjeff (Sep 11, 2013)

turnera said:


> You forgot to mention, you have a great self image.
> 
> What are you doing to GET her to like you?


I don't suffer from low self esteem if that is what you mean. 

The whole family just got back from a very relaxing week at the beach where we had a separate bedroom with a suggly (full) bed, but even that didn't warrant removing the pillow she places between us when we sleep. I could go on about how long our kids slept in the bed with us.


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## boyjeff (Sep 11, 2013)

*looking for the female POV*

I posted this over in the boys club, perhaps you ladies have some thoughts to share.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/118730-i-am-bad-guy.html#post4194330


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## bunny23 (May 19, 2011)

Are you still in MC?


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## camillaj (Aug 3, 2013)

Your wife is disgusted by your actions. You treated her as the plan-B. Everytime you try to compliment her or make a move for sex, she knows you only do it because the other woman dumped you. Yes, it's called the karma bus.


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## boyjeff (Sep 11, 2013)

bunny23 said:


> Are you still in MC?


no, W quit on 3 separate marriage counselors when all therapists indicated that she in some way owned a piece of what was wrong. she finally found an individual counselor who agreed with her that I sucked and told her to leave me, and when she didn't the counselor told her she couldn't help her anymore. I saw an IC for about 2 years, one was a woman who was very helpful and convinced me to give up some habits she thought might be impairing my judgement. another was a man who basically told me to go see a lawyer and get a letter of divorce proceedings as a threat unless W got with the program. I only saw him a few times as he was more interested in hearing himself talk than me and ultimatums aren't my style nor did I think it was the best way to handle the situation. It would be good for me to talk to someone again, but I am not really looking for tools anymore as much as someone with similar experience who managed to navigate the rough spots and make it work again. As for me I just keep hoping I can keep the boat bailed out long enough to get it back to shore. 

Kris Allen "Falling Slowly" @ Joe's Pub, NYC - YouTube


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You sure have a lot of excuses for cheating - none of which shed any blame on you.

Do you think your wife is aware of this flaw and simply is done with it?


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## LonelyinLove (Jul 11, 2013)

boyjeff said:


> was your initial comment supposed to be receptive? I guess I missed that. so what do you suggest I do?


1. No, it wasn't.

2. Suck it up...you made your bed with your poor decisions. 

You commented that you felt like you had won the sex lottery...maybe you did..you just forgot the taxes you have to pay on the winnings.

You also stated that you didn't want your children raised by a another man? Were you planning on walking out of their lives if you divorced?

Both you and wifey #2 are serial cheaters. You kicked your first wife to the curb when #2 came calling when her first choice didn't pan out. When the going gets tough after the babies are born, you go looking for someone else again.

It didn't occur to you that if #2 was okay cheating WITH you, that she would have no issues cheating ON you with someone else? 

As much as I think you two deserve each other, I don't believe either one of you are mature or ethical enough for marriage.


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## boyjeff (Sep 11, 2013)

camillaj said:


> Your wife is disgusted by your actions. You treated her as the plan-B. Everytime you try to compliment her or make a move for sex, she knows you only do it because the other woman dumped you. Yes, it's called the karma bus.


I suppose, which is why I am here asking for advice and thoughts. I worked for a company for 20 years until they downsized and I lost my job at the height of the economic downturn, which sucked but 2 1/2 years later I got back into the corporate world. At my former employer I had made a lot of advancements but once you got to a certain level it was either up or out, and if you aren't going up then they were figuring out how to get you out, so every review period was a review of your years past mistakes rather than a celebration of the successes. At my new employer I am the boy wonder and on the fast track once again, the good thing being that all the past baggage has been left at the former employer. I sometimes think this is what I need in terms of a relationship, but I am also realistic enough to know the grass is rarely greener on the other side, it's just a different variety of grass.


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## boyjeff (Sep 11, 2013)

turnera said:


> You sure have a lot of excuses for cheating - none of which shed any blame on you.
> 
> Do you think your wife is aware of this flaw and simply is done with it?


like i said there is a ton of stuff i left out, the reality is that i owned the whole thing and apologized profusely and begged for forgiveness and to leave the past behind and try to live in the now. did i make bad decisions? absolutely! am i remorseful for those decisions? absolutely! should i be penalized the rest of my marriage for those bad decisions? that is the question i am trying to answer.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Not my point. My point is your self-centeredness and how it affects your wife and your marriage.


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## boyjeff (Sep 11, 2013)

LonelyinLove said:


> As much as I think you two deserve each other, I don't believe either one of you are mature or ethical enough for marriage.


I guess your pissy attitude would explain why you are lonely in love. This is why I am sure marriage #3 isn't the answer, damaged goods are damaged goods, and the pool I would be fishing in would be full of em.


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## boyjeff (Sep 11, 2013)

turnera said:


> Not my point. My point is your self-centeredness and how it affects your wife and your marriage.


where should my center be? I think there is a big difference between being self-centered and selfish. people work with multiple centers, family centric issues, spouse centric issues and self centric issues. If the conclusion you have drawn from my brief story is that I only care about me, then you are wrong. 

this is kind of like listening to Jen Bermann on the radio give somebody advice to leave a man or woman after hearing 5 minutes of their life. Unless a life is in danger there is always more to understand before delivering a verdict.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Assuming you have shared with your wife, your desire to fix the relationship and return to a state of wedded bliss, and having enumerated your reasons for wanting this with HER as opposed to "the mother of your children" and she has declined to work toward a full reconciliation...you only have two choices. Put up with more of the same or divorce.

I can understand that you are lonely and desire intimate contact along with an intimate relationship. Are you convinced though, that you want this WITH HER or just that you deeply want this?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

*Re: looking for the female POV*

Sorry. I got nuthin.


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## LonelyinLove (Jul 11, 2013)

boyjeff said:


> I guess your pissy attitude would explain why you are lonely in love. This is why I am sure marriage #3 isn't the answer, damaged goods are damaged goods, and the pool I would be fishing in would be full of em.


As if....I've been married to the same man for 35 yrs..I'm your age.

My name is the title of my favorite Dan Fogelberg song. 

You're right...marriage # 3 is not the answer.

The only hope is for both of you to grow up and find honor. 

PS...that won't be found in another's bed....

What do you want? To save your marriage? Dude, your marriage started off wrong....it's going to be a long, hard haul.

You really want my advice....

Stop the affairs! Stop looking at other women. Stop thinking about other women. 

You're a businessman....to be successful, you focus on your core business, right? Your family is your core business. You are the CEO and you need to make the hard decisions to move the family forward (support your brands...wife and kids) to maximize growth (family love) and to fend off a hostile takeover (things or people that come between you and your family). 

You have a failing business....your Marriage Dun & Bradstreet rating is poor, but you have two assets you don't want to lose.

What do you think you should do?


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## boyjeff (Sep 11, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Put up with more of the same or divorce.
> 
> I can understand that you are lonely and desire intimate contact along with an intimate relationship. Are you convinced though, that you want this WITH HER or just that you deeply want this?


Like I said I thought I won the sex lottery when we got together, she WAS very sexual and turned me on more than anyone I have ever known, and she truly loved me. I just wonder if any of that is ever possible again. I was in a group session once and a man was relating how his wife had cheated on him. they had reconciled but he compared his marriage to a shattered goblet that was glued back together, but the fact that it had been broken and repaired was obvious to him everytime he looked at it.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

boyjeff said:


> i would like to reconnect with my wife and have her want me, that is by far the best solution. I have tried to be penitent for my past transgressions, I try to show my wife that I love her in many ways which I could give examples of if necessary. As far as I can tell she doesn't want what's broken fixed. When I get very critical of her it is easy for me to think she is only using me and giving nothing in return. If I asked her what she does for me given all that I provide for her, I am sure the answer would be somehow related to what she does for our kids and our home, but that's not for me, thats for them and her. She once told me in a rage the only things that were important in her life were her kids, her home and her husband. I told her she even got them in order of importance.
> 
> I made the committment to stay married, but if one day she tells me she wants out then I guess I would understand. I would like an intimate relationship in my life I am still young feeling and thinking and I feel like that is slipping through my fingers. I doubt very seriously a 3rd marriage is in my future and being single probably wouldn't feel much different than my life does now.


For many on TAM being single is a better option than to being a cuckholded male or an mistreated and neglected female.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

boyjeff said:


> I just wonder if any of that is ever possible again.


I seriously doubt it. Sounds like your W is thoroughly disgusted with you and completely checked out of the marriage. Your options now are to divorce, or to keep up the truce/facade until the kids are out of the house. After that, I don't know why you'd want want to stay in this mess.

And when you do finalize your divorce, don't jump into another relationship. Find some integrity first, or you'll be back here starting another thread.


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## boyjeff (Sep 11, 2013)

LonelyinLove said:


> As if....I've been married to the same man for 35 yrs..I'm your age.
> 
> My name is the title of my favorite Dan Fogelberg song.
> 
> ...


Im a foglberg fan but I dont know that song, I'll have to look it up. 

the affair is over this is all 10 years under the bridge, i don't chase other woman or look at them. one therapist told us it could take years to get over the affair if at all, well it's been 10, we don't talk about it anymore, but nothing feels fixed.

I like your corporate analogy, we may be more like each other than i initially thought  I have been trying to fix it, like i said i took her to paris last year to fulfill a life long dream of hers. We had a particularly nasty argument a few months back where she dragged up the past "AFTER WHAT YOU DID TO ME!!!" she said I hadn't fixed it yet. I told her I took her to Paris for christsakes, what did I need to do? But she can't tell me, because I think she knows the answer is "you can't do anything, because i refuse to ever let it be fixed" and now she is content to let me be the income provider, banker, father, handyman and groundskeeper, but NOT her lover.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

boyjeff said:


> where should my center be? I think there is a big difference between being self-centered and selfish. people work with multiple centers, family centric issues, spouse centric issues and self centric issues. If the conclusion you have drawn from my brief story is that I only care about me, then you are wrong.
> 
> this is kind of like listening to Jen Bermann on the radio give somebody advice to leave a man or woman after hearing 5 minutes of their life. Unless a life is in danger there is always more to understand before delivering a verdict.


I determine my assessment on the basis of what you write, and how you write. If I wanted to take the time, I could go back and pull it all out for you.

For brevity's sake, I'd just say your center should be your WIFE and family, not yourself.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

boyjeff said:


> Like I said I thought I won the sex lottery when we got together, she WAS very sexual and turned me on more than anyone I have ever known, and she truly loved me. I just wonder if any of that is ever possible again. I was in a group session once and a man was relating how his wife had cheated on him. they had reconciled but he compared his marriage to a shattered goblet that was glued back together, but the fact that it had been broken and repaired was obvious to him everytime he looked at it.


 Probably what _she_ sees, too.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

boyjeff said:


> the affair is over this is all *10 years under the bridge*, i don't chase other woman or look at them. one therapist told us it could take years to get over the affair if at all, well it's been 10, we don't talk about it anymore, but nothing feels fixed.


10 years doesn't matter to her. My W can't remember where she put her keys half the time, but she'll bring up some minor thing I did 20+ years ago.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If you want her to desire you, you have to figure out what she's unhappy about and, if in your power, change it.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

boyjeff said:


> Like I said I thought I won the sex lottery when we got together, she WAS very sexual and turned me on more than anyone I have ever known, and she truly loved me. I just wonder if any of that is ever possible again. I was in a group session once and a man was relating how his wife had cheated on him. they had reconciled but he compared his marriage to a shattered goblet that was glued back together, but the fact that it had been broken and repaired was obvious to him everytime he looked at it.


Sometimes it's not what you say but what you don't say.

If you are holding back from committing yourself to making this work until you feel as if A) There's a good chance it will work. And B) that she will reciprocate in her ability to commit to making it work. Then you are wasting your time.

It seems that neither of you are really fully able to commit to a marriage, affairs not withstanding. people can change. They can grow up, they can gain insight, they can become the kind of person they wish to be, but only if the make the declaration of intent within themselves FIRST. You haven't done that so it's rather unfair to ask it of her.

I suggest an amicable divorce so you both can find as much happiness as you are capable.


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## Moulin (Jul 30, 2013)

*Re: looking for the female POV*

So, you cheated with a married woman. Then divorced and then married your affair partner and now she cheated on you.

Seems like you got what was coming and now know how it feels. 

Try going to the Coping With Infidelity section - maybe they'll have some advice.


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## LonelyinLove (Jul 11, 2013)

boyjeff said:


> Im a foglberg fan but I dont know that song, I'll have to look it up.
> 
> the affair is over this is all 10 years under the bridge, i don't chase other woman or look at them. one therapist told us it could take years to get over the affair if at all, well it's been 10, we don't talk about it anymore, but nothing feels fixed.
> 
> I like your corporate analogy, we may be more like each other than i initially thought  I have been trying to fix it, like i said i took her to paris last year to fulfill a life long dream of hers. We had a particularly nasty argument a few months back where she dragged up the past "AFTER WHAT YOU DID TO ME!!!" she said I hadn't fixed it yet. I told her I took her to Paris for christsakes, what did I need to do? But she can't tell me, because I think she knows the answer is "you can't do anything, because i refuse to ever let it be fixed" and now she is content to let me be the income provider, banker, father, handyman and groundskeeper, but NOT her lover.


She has to own her part of this too....like I said..you both started out the wrong way.

If the family is to be saved, both of you need to move forward, not backward.

CEO...you need a meeting of the Board (you and wifey) and maybe with an external consultant (counselor, pastor, priest) and decide what it's going to take to salvage the family. Does she want it to fail?

Whatever history she holds against you needs to be spoken of now, and then forgotten forever. In business, history is a key learning for what not to try again (re: New Coke).

Life is too brief to be unhappy and at war with the one person who should always have your heart.

I have no idea your religious beliefs, but there is a book called The Love Dare...http://www.shenzhoufellowship.org/main2/files/old/SpecialTopics/TheLoveDare.pdf.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/bhcommunity...933287&Signature=63KXhYg4oG5XecCKHfvxIB+weQI=


The movie Fireproof is based on the book.

You can skip the religious part if you wish but the rest is still applicable to any couple.

It's time for a re-org my man....start today.

Fogelberg rocks!


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## boyjeff (Sep 11, 2013)

turnera said:


> I determine my assessment on the basis of what you write, and how you write. If I wanted to take the time, I could go back and pull it all out for you.
> 
> For brevity's sake, I'd just say your center should be your WIFE and family, not yourself.


there are 10 years of details my dear. i am a confident self assured man that is without question, but here is an example. 

When i got back into the corporate world my new job was a 2 hour drive from my home. I told my wife I would give it some time before we considered relocating, and I had a very generous relocation allowance. 9 months into the new role and I can see the fit and company is fantastic, we started looking at homes and checking out schools. the neighborhoods were excellent, the schools were top in the state, the cost of living was lower than where we were coming from so it would be a home upgrade to boot. We sselected a home and prepared to make an offer when my wife came to me in tears adn said she didn't want to go, she wanted to let my kids stay in the school they were in, she didn't want to be far from her parents who lived nearby. She said she would go but in her heart she didn't want to. I told her it wouldnt make sense if I was 1 out of 4 who were happy with the move, the overall net happiness would go down. So I continue to commute 2 hours each way each day I am in the office, it's been 2 years now with no end in sight. 

Who did I put first there? :scratchhead:


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## Unique Username (Jul 6, 2013)

Get a cheap but nice condo in the city of your new job.

Keep the old house for your kids and spouse...so kids have same school and Grandparents nearby.

COme home on weekends and see if this kind of trial helps. 

But for goodness sake "Bad boy Jeff" don't start philandering with women in your new town period. Decide what you want but this time....THIS TIME...don't be a cheater.....leave her and your family first


And I get the feeling from reading what you just wrote that u are using this "decision" to play martyr ....i,e, "See what ELSE I have given up for YOU" kinda crappy if you ask me.
Think about perspectives other than your own


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Unique Username said:


> Get a cheap but nice condo in the city of your new job.
> 
> Keep the old house for your kids and spouse...so kids have same school and Grandparents nearby.
> 
> ...


I love this idea. Then they could work in a weekend or two here and there without the kids and maybe begin to reconnect.


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## boyjeff (Sep 11, 2013)

Unique Username said:


> Get a cheap but nice condo in the city of your new job.
> 
> Keep the old house for your kids and spouse...so kids have same school and Grandparents nearby.
> 
> ...


yeah i am getting there with the condo. as far as martyrdom it's not my style, i still think the better move is for us all to be near where i work, but i only sensed an opportunity to fail, as if everything worked out it would go unnoticed, but hte first thing that went wrong would be all mine!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Or he could use it for his fun on the side. 

Sorry, not convinced. I'm not saying she's a saint and you're a heel, it's obviously somewhere in between. But SHE isn't happy with you, so it behooves you to figure out why. My dear.


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## boyjeff (Sep 11, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I love this idea. Then they could work in a weekend or two here and there without the kids and maybe begin to reconnect.


i actually fear the condo would be the beginning of the end. my parents had a rocky marriage, my dad was in sales and was gone all week. the weekend was typically the time for them to catch up on their arguing.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

In a situation like moving, there should have been more discussion, from both of you.


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## boyjeff (Sep 11, 2013)

turnera said:


> Or he could use it for his fun on the side.
> 
> Sorry, not convinced. I'm not saying she's a saint and you're a heel, it's obviously somewhere in between. But SHE isn't happy with you, so it behooves you to figure out why. My dear.


I should probably also mention W has suffered from depression on and off most of her life, a fact that wasn't known to me until we were well into the marriage, but I do recall conversations with her when we were just friends and they almost always had to do with her recently being sick, or not being able to do what she wanted because she had no money. 

I know whats wrong and have spelled it out well here. When my wife wants things to be fixed they will be fixed, until then it is not likely that anything will change. it's her move.


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## Unique Username (Jul 6, 2013)

Seriously I only suggested the weekday move because you are already seperated
you want to be a Dad (sorta) so at least you can be with them during the weekend.

This is Transitioning to being gone all the time...better way to smooth into leaving for good.

Kids and wife deserve to keep the house and community they love. (after you give-up and cavort with the next woman, just make sure this time she isn't married and you have LEFT your spouse...have the dignity and respect for your wife/children)


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## boyjeff (Sep 11, 2013)

turnera said:


> In a situation like moving, there should have been more discussion, from both of you.


we talked about it for 6 months and the possibility was known for 9 months. keep in mind i was out of the corporate workforce for 30 months, getting back in with a meaningful position was a BIG deal. What discussions do you have? this is where the source of our livliehood is, and we will all be a better family when we are together. Would you have done otherwise? :scratchhead:


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Maybe I missed something but it seems like you consider your wife to be a serial cheater, but not yourself?

Just get divorced and work on yourself and find out why you have lived this way. 

You described your current wife as your soulmate in the first 3 years of marriage...yet you really only state great sex as the reason for this.

Do you really know how to love so deeply that you don't want to cheat?

If not, find out why.


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## boyjeff (Sep 11, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Maybe I missed something but it seems like you consider your wife to be a serial cheater, but not yourself?
> 
> Just get divorced and work on yourself and find out why you have lived this way.
> 
> ...


I don't know enough about what my wife did or didn't do to consider her a serial cheater, like i said when i got together with her she said her husband had left and she didn't expect him back. I guess I didn't see that as cheating. As for me, there are obvious issues, i left lots of girlfriends like that, one wife and almost a second. I am the serial cheater. but that is past and there are many more reasons than sex that caused me to think that my wife was my soulmate, the sex was just a natural consequence of the connection not the cause.

yes i would like for things to be like they were, i don't know if that is ever possible. sometimes i think an apartment away from her is a good thing, but it won't help to heal the wound, it would just keep the friction to a minimum. There was a point when i felt so abused, rejected and unappreciated that all i wished for in our marriage was for her to stop picking on me and finding fault with everything i said or did. I still feel like that once in a while.


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## boyjeff (Sep 11, 2013)

*Re: looking for the female POV*



Moulin said:


> So, you cheated with a married woman. Then divorced and then married your affair partner and now she cheated on you.
> 
> Seems like you got what was coming and now know how it feels.
> 
> Try going to the Coping With Infidelity section - maybe they'll have some advice.


i don't think you read the story right, you got some of the details wrong. I will check the Infidelity section


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I would have worked on a compromise on the move, so you didn't end up resentful about it, rather than just giving her what she wanted.

I'm having a really hard time with this one. Can you give us more detail about your marriage, personalities, instances where things went wrong, typical interactions?


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## Moulin (Jul 30, 2013)

*Re: looking for the female POV*

Ok, I re-read. Wife #2 didn't have the affair. You did. Nice job!

Please read the Infidelity section. It will give you a lot of insight in to the hard work and efforts it takes to rebuild trust in a marriage once you've destroyed it.

Also, you might want to tone down all your 'justification' of why you cheated in two different marriages. Own the decision you made to do terribly hurtful things and recognize it for what it is - hurtful and destructive behavior. 

No matter how 'disconnected' you feel your wife is, there is no excuse for infidelity. Ever.


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## Moulin (Jul 30, 2013)

boyjeff said:


> like i said there is a ton of stuff i left out, the reality is that i owned the whole thing and apologized profusely and begged for forgiveness and to leave the past behind and try to live in the now. did i make bad decisions? absolutely! am i remorseful for those decisions? absolutely! should i be penalized the rest of my marriage for those bad decisions? that is the question i am trying to answer.


You don't really own it. In your original post, you JUSTIFY why you had the affair in Marriage #1 and then don't own the affair in Marriage #2. No ownership of what is f'ed up inside of you to drive you to behave this way.

Was there ever clear and open disclosure of all details to Wife #2 or was it just a 'sweep it under the run and pretend it never happened'? Did you answer all questions and let her work through it?


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## boyjeff (Sep 11, 2013)

i am not resentful of the move, just a bit worn from the commute. i will try to paint a broader picture over time.


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## boyjeff (Sep 11, 2013)

Moulin said:


> You don't really own it. In your original post, you JUSTIFY why you had the affair in Marriage #1 and then don't own the affair in Marriage #2. No ownership of what is f'ed up inside of you to drive you to behave this way.
> 
> Was there ever clear and open disclosure of all details to Wife #2 or was it just a 'sweep it under the run and pretend it never happened'? Did you answer all questions and let her work through it?


i didn't justify anything, I said i was bored, but i didn't say that was justification. wife #2 told me that she needed all details of the affair to move ahead. i gave her a full disclosure which I concluded later was a huge mistake. she didn't work through any of it, just used it as ammo for the next 5 years of arguements.

i have made lots of mistakes and owned it all, and continue to own it all. yeah i'm f'ed up inside. i am the oldest of 5 kids, with 7 years between us, and less than 1 year between me and my next brother. I am sure i have dealt with rejection since before I was less than a year old. maybe there is a piece of me that burns before i get burned, who knows.


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## Unique Username (Jul 6, 2013)

boyjeff said:


> i didn't justify anything, I said i was bored, but i didn't say that was justification. wife #2 told me that she needed all details of the affair to move ahead. i gave her a full disclosure which I concluded later was a huge mistake. she didn't work through any of it, just used it as ammo for the next 5 years of arguements.
> 
> i have made lots of mistakes and owned it all, and continue to own it all. yeah i'm f'ed up inside. i am the oldest of 5 kids, with 7 years between us, and less than 1 year between me and my next brother. *I am sure i have dealt with rejection since before I was less than a year old. maybe there is a piece of me that burns before i get burned, who knows.*




Isn't that exactly what you did with wife#1 when you hooked up with wife#2 ?

point is be a BIGGER man a BETTER person this time.
remind me how old are your kids?

you really don't sound like you want to continue this marriage...truly sounds mostly like sex is all you HAD going...that's gone and you are ready to go out and find another to bed

perhaps the details you shared in "full disclosure" of your infidelity to wife#2 were stuff that she can't QUICKLY get over (ludicrous since she cheated on her husband with you and you both split up your previous families due to home wrecker adultery right?)

disclosing doesn't guarantee you a dayumed thang......every person heals in their OWN way at their OWN time

have YOU ever been cheated on (whilst being faithful to the person?) you have any clue how it really feels?


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## Moulin (Jul 30, 2013)

It just sounds like it's all about you, you and you. Maybe you shouldn't be IN a relationship until it can be about more than that. 

You were bored so you cheated.
You were isolated so you cheated.


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## boyjeff (Sep 11, 2013)

Moulin said:


> It just sounds like it's all about you, you and you. Maybe you shouldn't be IN a relationship until it can be about more than that.
> 
> You were bored so you cheated.
> You were isolated so you cheated.


who's point of view do you assume i am most familiar with? 

given the fact that you haven't managed to contribute much here in the last few months but managed to comment 4 times on my thread i can only assume this is hitting a raw nerve for you, so be it. I didn't come here to get judged, i came with my perspective of my problem, if you have some insight, please share it. if you have some judgement, shove it!


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## Moulin (Jul 30, 2013)

That is insight but again, you're all wrapped up in you again.

People who are solely focused on themselves shouldn't be in a relationship. Being in a relationship means putting someone else's needs ahead of their own and considering their thoughts and feelings. 

Your behavior indicates you're not capable of that. 

Clearly, there's a touch of immaturity in there or a lack of ability to accept tough feedback.


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## Unique Username (Jul 6, 2013)

It's called Narcissism

How to Spot a Narcissist | World of Psychology

"At the core of extreme narcissism is egotistical preoccupation with self, personal preferences, aspirations, needs, success, and how he/she is perceived by others."


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

This isn't feedback. It's blatant judgement.

Awful lot of projection going on.

This is a guy asking whether or not it's possible to reconnect with his disconnected wife.

Telling him he's selfish and he sucks doesn't really address the question.

Awful lot of focus on the OP as a serial cheater for something that happened YEARS ago. There are no secrets here. The consequences are already well in place.

This isn't a fresh problem for him or his spouse. It is very old, very big scar. Crux of their issue, no doubt. 

But deciding to break out the fresh, flogging gear for a cheater is completely inappropriate in this case.

It's old news. 


My input? I think wanting what your marriage once was, once again, is a pipe dream. It's a great thought. Sounds like you have been trying to make amends and measure up. 

You can't make that happen alone. And you can't make her want to do it. 

As Anon Pink said, you have two options. Only one of them means you get another shot at an intimate relationship.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Hmmm....I dunno Deejo....I'm just saying that the guy needs to do some reflection and be really self-aware about himSELF and his own actions. It isn't clear if he has done that yet, and his language seems to show a lack of understanding of how his actions have landed him where he is.


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## Moulin (Jul 30, 2013)

Not sure I agree, Deejo. 

Selfishness is referring to his original post and subsequent posts talking about what he wants, what he feels, etc. and not anything about his wife. His infidelity, while it was years ago, is another selfish act and another indicator of that type of personality.

Has he asked his wife what she is feeling, what needs she has, what would help to make her happy?

Has he ever opened the conversation to allow her to ask all questions and deplete any concerns remaining about the infidelity or was it simply swept away and perhaps still lingering in her mind? 

I'm not a victim of infidelity so I'm certainly not projecting but the 'me, me, me' in the posts are red flags.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I've made lots of suggestions to him and he hasn't responded to a single one, afaik.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

*Re: looking for the female POV*

OK... I read it.

I think you should stay with wife #2 so neither of you are inflicted on anyone else.

Your both serial cheaters and deserve each other.

Hope things get better for you both...really... I do.

Sad story.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

boyjeff said:


> there are 10 years of details my dear. i am a confident self assured man that is without question, but here is an example.
> 
> When i got back into the corporate world my new job was a 2 hour drive from my home. I told my wife I would give it some time before we considered relocating, and I had a very generous relocation allowance. 9 months into the new role and I can see the fit and company is fantastic, we started looking at homes and checking out schools. the neighborhoods were excellent, the schools were top in the state, the cost of living was lower than where we were coming from so it would be a home upgrade to boot. We sselected a home and prepared to make an offer when my wife came to me in tears adn said she didn't want to go, she wanted to let my kids stay in the school they were in, she didn't want to be far from her parents who lived nearby. She said she would go but in her heart she didn't want to. I told her it wouldnt make sense if I was 1 out of 4 who were happy with the move, the overall net happiness would go down. So I continue to commute 2 hours each way each day I am in the office, it's been 2 years now with no end in sight.
> 
> Who did I put first there? :scratchhead:


Does that mean 20 hours of your week go to driving? Or commuter train? Dangerous IMO if by car. Also huge amount of time taken from your family. Sounds like your wife is putting you on a position to fail and you have accepted it.

Those 20 hours a week should go to your children. Sports, reading stories, playing games.

Better to have the condo and more energy for the weekends.

More family vacations. New environment can open up communications. Keep approaching with physical affection but expect nothing for the time being. If you quit approaching her it may be another negative. Of course if she says don't ever touch me, you need to file for divorce
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boyjeff (Sep 11, 2013)

*Re: looking for the female POV*



waiwera said:


> OK... I read it.
> 
> I think you should stay with wife #2 so neither of you are inflicted on anyone else.
> 
> ...


if this is a self help forum it sucks 

god I thought the hobby forums i frequent were caustic, but this place is downright mean.

long story short, i will continue to try and do the things that I think will make my wife and family happy, if that involves long commutes and a sexless marriage then so be it, as many of you have pointed out I made my bed and I now sleep in it, but i didn't need to come here and expose myself to forum judgement to know that.


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## boyjeff (Sep 11, 2013)

if this is a self help forum it sucks 

god I thought the hobby forums i frequent were caustic, but this place is downright mean.

long story short, i will continue to try and do the things that I think will make my wife and family happy, if that involves long commutes and a sexless marriage then so be it, as many of you have pointed out I made my bed and I now sleep in it, but i didn't need to come here and expose myself to forum judgement to know that. 

thank you mr moderator for trying to refocus the task at hand, I had actually hoped there may have been something I hadn't thought of that might be helpful, but additional flagellation isn't the solution. I would surmise that many of you here fancy yourselves as LCSW only without the credentials and feel free to spew your rhetoric over any helpless victim who mistakenly comes here looking for help and may have a bit of emotional baggage with them.

i'm out.......


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

jeff, I'm sorry you feel that way. I've offered you real suggestions that can make your marriage better - figuring out what your spouse feels and thinks, taking a hard look at yourself and seeing what could benefit from changing, and taking your life in a new direction. Are those not what you wanted to hear?


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

*Re: looking for the female POV*

Boy Jeff maybe you shouldn't leave so quickly. You might find what you need through other thread. Personally I believe none of us is perfect so nobody should be dismiss for sincerely seeking another chance. 

Perhaps looking at the Reconciliation sub forum near the bottom of the forum index page might help also. I have seen on this forum that people who have cheat eventually get help if they are strong enough to endure the initial piling on. I'm not blaming people who pile on either because so many poster have endure some very painful treatment from cheaters. 

Hope you can stick around and get help.


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## LonelyinLove (Jul 11, 2013)

Don't leave....the worst part is over...


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

*Re: looking for the female POV*



boyjeff said:


> if this is a self help forum it sucks
> 
> god I thought the hobby forums i frequent were caustic, but this place is downright mean.
> 
> long story short, i will continue to try and do the things that I think will make my wife and family happy, if that involves long commutes and a sexless marriage then so be it, as many of you have pointed out I made my bed and I now sleep in it, but i didn't need to come here and expose myself to forum judgement to know that.


If you can't handle the comments in this thread so far, which I think aren't all that bad, you're not going to get it any easier in the CWI section which has mostly betrayed spouses. 

You cheated on two wives. What you need is a lot of individual counseling to find out why you feel so entitled, how you give yourself permission to cheat. It's not something we can do for you. That work is all on you. Monogamy doesn't suit you and you may want to acknowledge that instead of trying to force yourself into a model of marriage that doesn't work for you. Good luck.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

boyjeff said:


> So I don't know what to do, I am not abusive, I don't drink, gamble or *philander*.


But you are. You cheated for 3 years with another woman and were prepared to leave your wife for this person. When you revealed that, it all blew up, the other woman changed her mind.

My guess is, to your wife, she will ALWAYS be second best. Yes, she has her issues, too. But I don't think she can let go of the anger and move past to full reconciliation.

I think if you truly want to save the marriage, you should ask your wife if she really wants to save it and if the answer is yes and you are both fully committed to it, then you need to go to marriage counseling - someone who specializes in helping couples heal from extramarital affairs. 

Although the fact your relationship began cheating on your first two partners... not a good sign.


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## boyjeff (Sep 11, 2013)

*Re: looking for the female POV*



Coffee Amore said:


> Monogamy doesn't suit you and you may want to acknowledge that instead of trying to force yourself into a model of marriage that doesn't work for you. Good luck.


I'm fine with monogamy, it's neglect and rejection that don't suit me, and perhaps the problem isn't so much about my willingness to commit as it is my selection process for a mate.

I will continue to lurk and read some of the CwI threads. C4E thanks for the encouragement


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

*Re: looking for the female POV*



boyjeff said:


> *I'm fine with monogamy,*


:scratchhead:

Are you effing kidding me?

You've cheated on both your wives and we're about to leave wife #2 for another cheating wife. You have NO idea what monogamy is or what it means to the people who value it.

To people who ARE monogamous and faithful and loyal your posts are utterly shocking and what is _most_ shocking is that YOU can't see how effed up your situation is.

PS: Yes boyjeff ... you should come over pop over to CWI you could learn a lot... but watch out for hurt feelings...I'm a kitten compared to some you might meet over there.


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## Tomara (Jun 19, 2013)

*Re: looking for the female POV*

I started to write on the other thread but nothing I said came out helpful. I am stunned by your lack of insite to your behavior. Naracism, look it up. 

If you are wanting sympathy about the cheating, it will be hard to find. As I have stated before to other posters. This place is in support of healthy marriages.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Threads have been merged. 

And for the record, name calling by proxy via 3rd person references is still name calling.

Posts removed. Keep it up at your own risk.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: looking for the female POV*



boyjeff said:


> I'm fine with monogamy, it's neglect and rejection that don't suit me, and perhaps the problem isn't so much about my willingness to commit as it is my selection process for a mate.
> 
> I will continue to lurk and read some of the CwI threads. C4E thanks for the encouragement


Not everybody is marriage material. (myself, for instance)
Perhaps you should just decide to go with occasional dating with no intentions of matrimony and concentrate on the other members of your family.
At least you still have them.


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## LonelyinLove (Jul 11, 2013)

Okay, we (including me) really piled on.....

The man has admitted his failings as a husband and at this point, wants to improve things. Perhaps his delivery was a bit off and we focused on the wrong things.

If he was a wino at an AA meeting, would he have met such venom?

Speaking personally, Jeff, I apologize....I took out my frustration with a cheating friend on you. That wasn't okay. I'm sorry.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

*Re: looking for the female POV*



hookares said:


> Not everybody is marriage material. (myself, for instance)
> Perhaps you should just decide to go with occasional dating with no intentions of matrimony and concentrate on the other members of your family.
> At least you still have them.


Why not concentrate on yourself? The family members will be there. Don't worry about being better for anyone. Work on yourself so that you have the best options available to you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

*Re: looking for the female POV*



boyjeff said:


> I'm fine with monogamy...


as long as my wife is showering me with affection and attention and I'm getting continuous mind-blowing sex. Just don't let me get bored. Cos then all bets are off.

I'm not just saying this for grins. I'm trying to help you see the break in your logic.

If your 'healthy' self esteem carries forward in your actions with your wife (and I'm talking the LITTLE things, not the big things like your magnanimous gesture to travel 2 hours a day), you could have pushed her away. It's the day to day stuff that adds up that makes someone done with a marriage.

Did you ever look at the HNHN book's Love Busters questionnaire? Ask her to fill it out?


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

*Re: looking for the female POV*



boyjeff said:


> I'm fine with monogamy, it's neglect and rejection that don't suit me, and perhaps the problem isn't so much about my willingness to commit as it is my selection process for a mate.


It's not your partner's responsibility to make sure you stay monogamous. That's on you. The statement above from you sounds like "if only the wife had done her part, I wouldn't have cheated for 3 years" (i.e. it's her fault I cheated). That's why I said YOU need to dig deep in individual counseling, not marriage counseling, to figure out why your go-to behavior when you're dissatisfied with marital life is to have an affair. You could easily buy a candy apple red sports car, take up an expensive hobby, etc instead of cheating. Everyone has low periods in a marriage. Looking to a third party isn't the answer. You destroy in attempting to create something special with someone outside your marriage.


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## Tomara (Jun 19, 2013)

LonelyinLove said:


> Okay, we (including me) really piled on.....
> 
> The man has admitted his failings as a husband and at this point, wants to improve things. Perhaps his delivery was a bit off and we focused on the wrong things.
> 
> ...


:iagree: I will offer my apology. Your post hit a boil for me. You remind me so much of my ex husband it's not even funny. I do believe that some men and women are not cut out for marriage. That's not a bad thing, just a fact. As a matter of fact you are meeting someone that isn't marriage material. Not for cheating but because I can't seem to hold a relationship together in the marriage realm. Decided to lease my models and not buy ever again I don't get hurt and I don't hurt someone else.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

I can understand how you feel offended by some of the posters. CWI is not kind to cheaters. It would go after your wife even harder because women cheaters trigger the male posters who are struggling with their own WWs.

There are two parts to your thread that have not been resolved but may be if you stick it out:

1) the empahasis on your pain, which naturally what motivates you to search for a way to improve your relationship, will shift towards what your wife is suffering. When you begin to relate her side of it more, you will come closer to coming up with possible solutions.

2) You are an articulate person and assertive. This works against you on your thread because you need to remove more ego to get to the bottom. I think that you have a hard time being unreservedly remorseful before your wife.

She lashes and punishes you but she wants you to be broken and unresisting. At least for many BS that is a condition for reconciliation. You have to have a Jesus moment which you are willing to sacrifice yourself for BS happiness. A trip to Paris is not enough; it is not even in the right direction. It is too material.

Even your wife buys into to your way of measuring success, for the sake of melting the ice off her heart you need to act in a fashion that is uncharacteristic for you. It should not be something measure in money.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

LongWalk said:


> I can understand how you feel offended by some of the posters. CWI is not kind to cheaters. It would go after your wife even harder because women cheaters trigger the male posters who are struggling with their own WWs.


He hasn't opened a thread in CWI yet. He posted in the Men's Club and the Ladies Lounge then those threads were merged by a Moderator to this thread in the Men's Club.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> I can understand how you feel offended by some of the posters. CWI is not kind to cheaters. It would go after your wife even harder because women cheaters trigger the male posters who are struggling with their own WWs.
> 
> There are two parts to your thread that have not been resolved but may be if you stick it out:
> 
> ...


"Wants you to be broken and unresisting". A willing **** who knows his place. I mean a man could choose to levitate a woman in that position intentionally. He could also take care of his own needs.



LongWalk said:


> Even your wife buys into to your way of measuring success, for the sake of melting the ice off her heart you need to act in a fashion that is uncharacteristic for you. It should not be something measure in money.


Right. I've always thought "doing all those things that you wouldn't do" is a great way to wake them up.


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