# Does your spouse give you sex whenever you want?



## MichelleR (Jan 6, 2016)

Okay so I joined here quite recently and have been hooked. I do not have a lot of friends so I don't have many people to talk to, plus most of them don't reveal intimate details about their marriage. 

I'm noticing a lot of LD/HD couples here and am curious to know how common it is. Now I understand that the members of TAM is probably not representative of the general population but I'm still curious. 

Does your husband or wife give you sex whenever you want (in general, not 100% due to valid circumstances) or are you regularly denied? In my marriage I'd say we initiate pretty- much 50/50 and both are just about always willing to satisfy the other. I'm wondering if that is common or if we are just really lucky.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

In my 20-year marriage, sex was very lopsided (I was HD, he was LD). We are divorced.

In my current LTR of five years, we are just like you. We both initiate equally, and we are both almost always up for the ride! In fact, I can't remember the last time either of us turned the other one down.

I'm not sure how common that is, but I will never live any other way again. I would rather be single than living with a partner who doesn't desire me in that way.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

MichelleR said:


> Okay so I joined here quite recently and have been hooked. I do not have a lot of friends so I don't have many people to talk to, plus most of them don't reveal intimate details about their marriage.
> 
> I'm noticing a lot of LD/HD couples here and am curious to know how common it is. Now I understand that the members of TAM is probably not representative of the general population but I'm still curious.
> 
> Does your husband or wife give you sex whenever you want (in general, not 100% due to valid circumstances) or are you regularly denied? In my marriage I'd say we initiate pretty- much 50/50 and both are just about always willing to satisfy the other. I'm wondering if that is common or if we are just really lucky.


*@MichelleR ~ As is, you have the consummate marriage relationship! Just keep it up!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

MichelleR said:


> Does your husband or wife give you sex whenever you want (in general, not 100% due to valid circumstances) or are you regularly denied? In my marriage I'd say we initiate pretty- much 50/50 and both are just about always willing to satisfy the other. I'm wondering if that is common or if we are just really lucky.


No

Yes

Initiation varies, theoretically 100% me but effectively 100% her. When you are mostly incapable of any spontaneous action you've basically got 100% control of initiation when it happens although the thought may have been planted the previous day, days etc.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I'm the HD in a HD/LD relationship. For most of our 30 year marriage my wife has almost always turned me down. I've essentially never turned her down. Over the last couple of months (after I managed to convince her of how unhappy I was) she has been making a real effort. She still turns me down maybe 2/3 of the time, but not always and she does initiate.

I don't know how common HD/LD is - its not something people talk about much in person. Groups like this will attract people with relationship issues so the percentage with problems may seem very high. From these groups it appears that there are a similar number of LD men and LD women.

LD/HD is really terribly hard on a relationship. The constant rejection / constant pressure is poisonous.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

MichelleR said:


> Okay so I joined here quite recently and have been hooked. I do not have a lot of friends so I don't have many people to talk to, plus most of them don't reveal intimate details about their marriage.
> 
> I'm noticing a lot of LD/HD couples here and am curious to know how common it is. Now I understand that the members of TAM is probably not representative of the general population but I'm still curious.
> 
> Does your husband or wife give you sex whenever you want (in general, not 100% due to valid circumstances) or are you regularly denied? In my marriage I'd say we initiate pretty- much 50/50 and both are just about always willing to satisfy the other. I'm wondering if that is common or if we are just really lucky.


It's not really about saying yes or no. To me it's what's behind the yes or no. My wife has acquiesced 99% of the time, however, in the past the "yes" was simply said with a sense of duty in mind.

It's like asking my 18 year old son to shovel the snow off my driveway. He will say "yes" but what he really wants to say is "f$ck, I don't want to do this."

The holy grail is a meaningful, hearty, lusty, "YES." I want a "yes" because of desire, not duty.

To take this one step further, even when you get a yes, many LD spouses are responsive desire, so as the HD initiator you must press on to eventually get the "real" YYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSS during orgasm:grin2:


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

UMP said:


> It's not really about saying yes or no. To me it's what's behind the yes or no. My wife has acquiesced 99% of the time, however, in the past the "yes" was simply said with a sense of duty in mind.
> 
> It's like asking my 18 year old son to shovel the snow off my driveway. He will say "yes" but what he really wants to say is "f$ck, I don't want to do this."
> 
> ...


Luckily right now, I get mostly hell yah. When it was duty sex a few years back, it sucked.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

MichelleR said:


> Does your husband or wife give you sex whenever you want (in general, not 100% due to valid circumstances) or are you regularly denied? In my marriage I'd say we initiate pretty- much 50/50 and both are just about always willing to satisfy the other. I'm wondering if that is common or if we are just really lucky.


If my wife gave me sex whenever I wanted, I'd likely over indulge and wear both of us out! Instead she tells me no and throws her boobs in my face to let me know what I can not have until she is ready. 

I consider myself very lucky, cause I like a dominant woman that knows how to tease me!

Badsanta


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

I would say most people don't get sex whenever they want. They prob do in the first years of a relationship but it's less from there.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

My ex was LD, I was and am HD. We are no longer married. I think there are a LOT of mismatched couples, unfortunately. Current spouse is also HD. We have (not "give") sex pretty much daily, sometimes more. There are - rare - times when one of is isn't interested right then, but that doesn't last long. We both initiate pretty much equally.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

I think consistent daily sex over time is pretty rare. Get it while u can


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

Yes she will but I do not like sex if she is not in the mood for it. I love to please women more than having pleasure myself. I have a very high sex drive and my wife does not. She did something few wives would do; she invited her best friend to have sex with me and become my lover. She did and ended up in our lives for most of our 40+ year marriage. The best part is that they bought enjoyed sex with each other so my wife wanted sex a lot more but mostly in threesomes. We had over 5,000 threesomes followed by one on one sex with each of them by me. They never had sex together unless I was part of it. 

So my wife may not have given me sex every time I wanted it, but she brought in someone to take up the slack and in the process discovered that she is bisexual and prefers sex with women. That does not mean she does not enjoy sex with me. In fact, her idea of fulfilling sex is a FFM threesome, followed by a FF and then FM. At least I am the only m an in the world that she likes to have sex with. We tested that somewhat.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

MichelleR said:


> (1)....I'm noticing a lot of LD/HD couples here and am curious to know how common it is.
> 
> (2)Does your husband or wife give you sex whenever you want (in general, not 100% due to valid circumstances) or are you regularly denied? In my marriage I'd say we initiate pretty- much 50/50 and both are just about always willing to satisfy the other. I'm wondering if that is common or if we are just really lucky.


(1) Common enough that there are lots of marriage counselors and sex therapists who have major segments of their practice in this area.

While the main reason for divorce is financial problems, mismatched sex drives are up there in the list of causes of divorce.

(2) I am HD and my wife is LD. So no my wife doesn't give me have sex with me as often as I would want it, but we has sex as often as she can and enough that I am satisfied.

Are you lucky.....Yes.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Vinny is that a penthouse letter?5000 threesomes?! Really.


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## plomito (Apr 7, 2015)

I say you have a winner here. enjoy it


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Michelle,

I'm not going to call the stuff below 'rules', because that feels contractual. And a contractual approach to marriage - makes it feel more like a prison and less like a partnership. 

We sort of have this request/response pattern woven deeply into the mesh work of the marriage. For example: 

Babe, you want to go for a walk tonight? 

Now in theory - either of us can say no to that type request. Thing is - you can't escape ground truth. Not in a marriage. Ground truth on walking is:
- It has some unexplained but real emotional synchronization benefits
- It's good quality time, we don't do phone calls other than emergencies while out walking
- It's healthy 
- Once you get going it's fun 

Same for playing board games and other stuff we do together. So when your partner invites you to do something, absent a compelling reason not to, we say yes. And afterwards we say: thank you for motivating me. 

In a marriage that works like that, saying yes to sex is as natural as saying yes to everything else. 

Only difference being it's perfectly ok to ask: is there any chance we can connect tomorrow? 






MichelleR said:


> Okay so I joined here quite recently and have been hooked. I do not have a lot of friends so I don't have many people to talk to, plus most of them don't reveal intimate details about their marriage.
> 
> I'm noticing a lot of LD/HD couples here and am curious to know how common it is. Now I understand that the members of TAM is probably not representative of the general population but I'm still curious.
> 
> Does your husband or wife give you sex whenever you want (in general, not 100% due to valid circumstances) or are you regularly denied? In my marriage I'd say we initiate pretty- much 50/50 and both are just about always willing to satisfy the other. I'm wondering if that is common or if we are just really lucky.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Somehow asking to go for a walk and asking for sex are not exactly the same thing.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I initiate about 60%, her 40%.

She never turns me down. I do turn her down sometimes but I'm trying to improve on that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cmc (Aug 30, 2013)

I rarely initiate. I like the pursuit from my husband. I cannot recall turning him down and he asks often. He starts working on me in the morning and by the evening I'm ready to submit to him. He seems to like the chase. I feel like I have to build up my desire. It seems like my husband can turn it on like a light switch.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

As long as we are not in the middle of having a dinner party or at the supermarket, then yes we both "get" sex whenever we want.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

cmc said:


> *It seems like my husband can turn it on like a light switch.*


FYI, he may grow frustrated that he always has to initiate. Along with that frustration will likely come with him questioning his self confidence as to why you never initiate. Then mild psychological issues with ED may begin to arise. He may withdraw. 

Then your libido will skyrocket and you will try every trick in the book to get him interested again, while unknowingly you will actually be overstimulating him and making him sexually numb. You may accuse him of being broken, send him to get his hormones checked, only to find out they are normal. 

Then hopefully before it is too late, you will realize that your husband is NOT a light switch, but that you have been sexually lazy and making him do all the work. 

Sexuality has seasons! If I were you, I'd start thinking on some sexy winter clothing, gather some kindling and make sure you can help your husband build a roaring fire to keep the romance alive as the two of you get older.

The more you know,
Badsanta


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

during the first two years, she turned me down nearly every time. she initiated once a month to "scratch the itch". i upset the status quo and now she doesn't turn me down at all. i don't turn her down either. i initiate about 60-70% of the time, and if she is not ready to drop her panties at a moments notice, she finds lots of creative and delightful ways to satisfy me. 

you better believe i do everything in my power to keep that girl happy. after all, she literally gives me her body, enthusiastically, to make me happy. 

fvcking love that woman...


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Holland said:


> As long as we are not in the middle of having a dinner party or at the supermarket, then yes we both "get" sex whenever we want.


otherwise that might be embarrassing and might lose some of your dinner party friends or asked not to come back to the supermarket. 

good policy!


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

16 years together, 13 married. I'd say we both give each other sex whenever we want it providing no one is ill or exhausted. And even if one of us is exhausted, we have given each other blanket permission to have sleep sex. 

We both initiate, but lately it seems to be less about obvious initiation and more about normal affectionate gestures leading to making out leading to sex.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

cmc said:


> It seems like my husband can turn it on like a light switch.


It is not a light switch, it is always on! 

I believe the actual physiological response need to get an erection is to merely close the valve that lets blood escape from the penis. Close the valve and boom, up it goes:wink2:


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Holland said:


> As long as we are not in the middle of having a dinner party or at the supermarket, then yes we both "get" sex whenever we want.


You lack imagination! A quickie in the bathroom and your guests will never know!

"Honey, can you come look at this? I think the sink is leaking.."


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## MichelleR (Jan 6, 2016)

AslaDain, I'm glad you're so happy! I'm curious to know what you did to change the status quo.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> You lack imagination! A quickie in the bathroom and your guests will never know!
> 
> "Honey, can you come look at this? I think the sink is leaking.."


Love this!

My SO and I once hosted an NFL party. We slipped upstairs, unnoticed, during the half for a quickie while the guests were pounding down snacks and beer. I have very fond memories of that football game! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happy2gether (Dec 6, 2015)

yep, barring time of month or illness she never turns me down. even then more often than not she will perform oral. We have pretty equal sex drives, and if for some reason we go more than a day without some form of sex she WILL initiate it aggressively!


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

MichelleR said:


> Okay so I joined here quite recently and have been hooked. I do not have a lot of friends so I don't have many people to talk to, plus most of them don't reveal intimate details about their marriage.
> 
> I'm noticing a lot of LD/HD couples here and am curious to know how common it is. Now I understand that the members of TAM is probably not representative of the general population but I'm still curious.
> 
> Does your husband or wife give you sex whenever you want (in general, not 100% due to valid circumstances) or are you regularly denied? In my marriage I'd say we initiate pretty- much 50/50 and both are just about always willing to satisfy the other. I'm wondering if that is common or if we are just really lucky.


You are just really lucky


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## cmc (Aug 30, 2013)

badsanta said:


> FYI, he may grow frustrated that he always has to initiate. Along with that frustration will likely come with him questioning his self confidence as to why you never initiate. Then mild psychological issues with ED may begin to arise. He may withdraw.
> 
> Then your libido will skyrocket and you will try every trick in the book to get him interested again, while unknowingly you will actually be overstimulating him and making him sexually numb. You may accuse him of being broken, send him to get his hormones checked, only to find out they are normal.
> 
> ...


I gather my husband seems to enjoy the chase. We work full time so in the morning before work, he's pretty flirtatious and touching or groping me. At work we may exchange a few texts, and then in the evening we have sex. I think my husband could go morning, noon, and night if I was available. It's hard for me to just be able to go at once. We do it almost daily but I think my husband could go multiple times daily.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

MichelleR said:


> Okay so I joined here quite recently and have been hooked. I do not have a lot of friends so I don't have many people to talk to, plus most of them don't reveal intimate details about their marriage.
> 
> I'm noticing a lot of LD/HD couples here and am curious to know how common it is. Now I understand that the members of TAM is probably not representative of the general population but I'm still curious.
> 
> ...


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

If you get the ropes just right you get as much sex as you want >


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## cmc (Aug 30, 2013)

Marc878 said:


> If you get the ropes just right you get as much sex as you want >


My husband is learning this


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Ropes?


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

You truly think your wife has never desired to have another guy?

Always possible but hard to believe a woman who suggested the threesomes in the first place would be one to not go for another man at some point.



Vinnydee said:


> Yes she will but I do not like sex if she is not in the mood for it. I love to please women more than having pleasure myself. I have a very high sex drive and my wife does not. She did something few wives would do; she invited her best friend to have sex with me and become my lover. She did and ended up in our lives for most of our 40+ year marriage. The best part is that they bought enjoyed sex with each other so my wife wanted sex a lot more but mostly in threesomes. We had over 5,000 threesomes followed by one on one sex with each of them by me. They never had sex together unless I was part of it.
> 
> So my wife may not have given me sex every time I wanted it, but she brought in someone to take up the slack and in the process discovered that she is bisexual and prefers sex with women. That does not mean she does not enjoy sex with me. In fact, her idea of fulfilling sex is a FFM threesome, followed by a FF and then FM. At least I am the only m an in the world that she likes to have sex with. We tested that somewhat.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

I call bs on this vinny guy.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

OkGuy,

Yes. That's true. 

And Michelle - I'd like to share a few observations about libido/raw sex drives. 

In a lifetime marriage, it's unlikely to remain highly synchronized all the way through. And that's ok provided your marriage is a genuine collaboration and not a competition to see who can get the best 'deal' for themselves. 

I'll share a quote from a member of TAM. 

My partner wants sex daily, I want it monthly. So I think a fair compromise is twice a month. 

This type of nonsense is the result of folks seeing monogamy as an unconditional commitment. They don't seem to grasp that - healthy monogamy is both a request for fidelity and a commitment to take care of your partners desire for sex. 

Folks who expect fidelity without accepting the responsibility to make a good faith effort to keep their partner sexually happy - are selfish. 

And folks who don't make an effort to remain attractive, but consider sex a contractual obligation, are just as selfish. 

I'll close on this note. It might be cold outside - and I'm really comfortable in my favorite reading chair - middle of a good book. I really don't feel like walking. 

But then - there's this person who after 25 years still craves my company. Delights in our connection. And she is ASKING ME to do something that - I'm always glad I did once we get going. 

That description sounds a lot like the way responsive sexual desire works. And I'm fairly certain M2 treats sex the way she does - is that it mirrors my view of walking. 




Okguy said:


> Somehow asking to go for a walk and asking for sex are not exactly the same thing.


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## LostinMO (Jan 1, 2016)

She did, yes. Whenever I wanted. I could not keep up with her, try as I might. It was awesome.

Now-she doesn't. Been a bad dry spell. None at all in 2015. Been over a year. Hormones, Fybromialgia...Still love her but it is tough.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Lost its tough when the wife is ill. But should be easier to deal with because you know she really can't do anything about it.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Mem I like your analogy. My wife always likes it once we do it. She just doesn't get the responsive desire part yet.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

cmc said:


> I gather my husband seems to enjoy the chase. We work full time so in the morning before work, he's pretty flirtatious and touching or groping me. At work we may exchange a few texts, and then in the evening we have sex. I think my husband could go morning, noon, and night if I was available. It's hard for me to just be able to go at once.*We do it almost daily but I think my husband could go multiple times daily.*


*And what's remotely wrong with that?

I mean, if you were presented with an absolutely hard choice, would you rather have more sex, or none?*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Yea we were doing it 4-5 times a week in our 40s too. Not the same in our 60s though.


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## cmc (Aug 30, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *And what's remotely wrong with that?
> 
> I mean, if you were presented with an absolutely hard choice, would you rather have more sex, or none?*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I like the amount we get right now but sometimes he needs more. I usually offer assistance if he needs to do some maintenance as he calls it.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

As a man who didn't get married until he was 35, I had "conditions" for getting married. In hindsight, that could've been disastrous, and was probably one reason it took me so long to get married. After a few failed attempts at long-term relationships up to that point, I decided I would be up front with my main "condition". When I met my wife, and we had dated long enough to know we were compatible and loved each other, I opened up to her about the main "condition". You guessed it, that "condition" was sex whenever "I" wanted it. Of course, I told her that I may not want sex several times a day, or every night, or whatever, because I didn't know the future. She understood this, and we had sex many times a day for a few months, slowing down some the longer we were married. After 19+ years, and two kids, it has slowed down to 5 to 6 times a week. The quality of sex is very good, and sometimes great, depending on if we have enough time together. With a very busy household, just finding quality time together can be difficult. Sometimes we will pick a day where we will do NOTHING else, no other plans but to be with each other. It doesn't have to be, nor is it always sexual in nature, just relax and focus on resting our brains and bodies, and paying real attention to each other. Those are always really good times, and recharges our relationship. I think most people are just are too dang busy, and therefore their sex drive gets out of sync, gets put on the backburner, has time constraints, and / or other "duties" keep them from being able to get into it. My wife and I have that time when we put everything, and everybody else, completely out of our minds and focus on each other. Sometimes it is difficult to do, but we are getting better at it.

The gist of the story is set aside a time each day where nothing else matters, and focus completely on each other. Sometimes it doesn't even "have" to be sexual, just sensual. It works for us, and I love my wife now more than ever!


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Slowed to 5-6 times a week? Gee. Must be tough


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

There were some slower times mixed in over the years, but, yes, 5 to 6 times a week. I was blessed for sure. It was extremely important to me, and was communicated before I got married.


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

Luvher4life said:


> There were some slower times mixed in over the years, but, yes, 5 to 6 times a week. I was blessed for sure. It was extremely important to me, and was communicated before I got married.


If she still wants to have sex that often after menopause then you are lucky because she is in the minority of women who desire sex that often especially as they get older.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

I hate to brag but i get sex anything i want, i just have to look at her and she disrobes and assumes the position..... 


....wait sorry that was a dream i had last night......which probably explains why my wife looked like Diane Lane. Never mind.


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

I have had great sex with my husband for almost 30 years. Don't see any reason to slack off now!! The only time I've ever turned him down was if I was sick or something, but I made sure to make it up to him as soon as I could. He has turned me down, but that's when his Testosterone levels were low and he couldn't help that, but he is now on TRT, so no worries.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

OkGuy,
I raise all this because it's important to recognize that when both partners accep, even embrace responsive desire, it is a huge help in an HD/LD marriage. 

Which is why I don't immediately assign blame to either person in a sexually fvcked up marriage. 

Most movie scenes reflect how sex works during the first 2 years. When both folks feel strong desire just from being in proximity to each other. So the pacing is fast, aggressive. 

The average person - give them 2 years of that approach working well - and they get lost when the EXACT SAME approach to sex, produces not a less positive result - but a bad experience for their newly LD partner. 

In the beginning technique rules. But after the transition to a steady state, if the HD retains the same pacing and affect - game over. 

Of you want to understand how important affect is, ask yourself how it feels when a puppy is dry humping your leg. Not good. But the puppy gets some latitude - cross specie IQ expectations combined with age/training - you don't really blame the pup. Still feels awkward. 

As far as pacing goes. M2 loves when I play with her nipples. M2 hates when I play with her nipples. Is she crazy? Am I inconsistent? Nope. If I complete those two sentences:
- M2 loves this once she is turned on
- M2 hates this BEFORE she is turned on

It is not a matter of feeling LESS GOOD. It's a matter of it feeling bad. 







Okguy said:


> Mem I like your analogy. My wife always likes it once we do it. She just doesn't get the responsive desire part yet.


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## NorCalMan (Dec 14, 2011)

Sex 5 to 6 times a week? I didn't get that much the first month following our honeymoon!


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

> Most movie scenes reflect *how sex works during the first 2 years*. When both folks feel strong desire just from being in proximity to each other. So the pacing is fast, aggressive.
> 
> The average person - give them 2 years of that approach working well - and they get lost when the EXACT SAME approach to sex, produces not a less positive result - but a bad experience for their *newly LD partner*.


Mutual desire usually exists in new relationships, and the hormones responsible for this fade by the 2 year mark. That is why I recommend dating - even living together - for at least two years before deciding to marry. If you can resolve any issues that arise once one partner becomes relatively LD versus how they were before, then marry. If not, don't!


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

Happilymarried25 said:


> If she still wants to have sex that often after menopause then you are lucky because she is in the minority of women who desire sex that often especially as they get older.


Agreed. I am "lucky", as you say it. I say I have been blessed with a wonderful wife.

To be fair, she is not always into it fully, but she still never says no. I have a tremendous respect for her for holding her end of our bargain. She knows I can do it any time, and anywhere, as I still find her very attractive and sexy. Sometimes (rare) I'm not in the mood, but if she initiates (and she does often) I will most definitely respond. It's a matter of knowing what buttons to push to go from "not in the mood" to "YES!"


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

After 16 years, we're still at 5 to 10x a week (reduction by half since the early years), but occasionally one or both of us have an off day and we don't. Getting older takes a hormonal toll, so we've made efforts to counter that, as we both love sex. It's just a little more difficult to get started these days, but we both will initiate and one of us is usually in the mood and can get the other going pretty easily.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

So after 16 years you still do it almost every day? Ages?


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> OkGuy,
> I raise all this because it's important to recognize that when both partners accep, even embrace responsive desire, it is a huge help in an HD/LD marriage.
> 
> Which is why I don't immediately assign blame to either person in a sexually fvcked up marriage.
> ...


yes. you hit a nerve. maybe dumb to pick on movies because they don't mean anything in real life, but on the other hand maybe they do, because i think people do watch and at least subliminally are affected

movie after movie shows two lovers coming together for the first time and there's that 'golden' moment with some tender music or triumphant music in the background when they climax together in a heap of glorious love. i think this does a disservice to young people and people in general who think love should(could) always be this way, when in reality, it can be awkward and less than wonderful as well as times when it is wonderful. i think it would be better served not to imply that love is always perfect. end of rant.

i can't remember when was the last time i got turned down, although i don't ask but 1-2 times a week. she initiates about equally as me.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

We have a compromise frequency of around twice a week. 

And the quality is mostly good, sometimes great. 




Okguy said:


> Slowed to 5-6 times a week? Gee. Must be tough


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

I would kill for once a week.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

MichelleR said:


> Okay so I joined here quite recently and have been hooked. I do not have a lot of friends so I don't have many people to talk to, plus most of them don't reveal intimate details about their marriage.
> 
> I'm noticing a lot of LD/HD couples here and am curious to know how common it is. Now I understand that the members of TAM is probably not representative of the general population but I'm still curious.
> 
> Does your husband or wife give you sex whenever you want (in general, not 100% due to valid circumstances) or are you regularly denied? In my marriage I'd say we initiate pretty- much 50/50 and both are just about always willing to satisfy the other. I'm wondering if that is common or if we are just really lucky.




My W takes care of my business whenever I like. I will do the same for my W.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

You are full of crap Personal.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Really open marriage? Extramarital sex? Passive aggressive? You are clueless.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

You can only change yourself not others.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Got any realistic suggestions smart ass?


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

My boyfriend and I are both a bit LD. Neither of us gets sex whenever we want, but we're both fine with that.

We both have delicate drives... things like headaches, backaches, fatigue, and high stress are turn-offs. I'd say we have sex once or twice a week (we don't live together, and see each other maybe three nights a week). I think we each initiate about half the time, and we reject in amounts equal to each other as well. But rather than waiting for someone to initiate and then saying no, we tend to be upfront about the fact that it's not a good night for sex, so nobody gets their hopes up.

We basically go with the belief that sex should only happen if it's enjoyed on both sides. He has some performance issues, and I was the LD in a mismatched marriage, so we're both grateful for the lack of pressure. When we have sex, it's very good and enjoyed on both sides. If that means sometimes someone doesn't get sex when they're in the mood... well there's always next time.

I know this wouldn't work for a lot of people here, but it works perfectly for us!


ETA: I don't think I could date someone who expected me to have sex whenever they want, nor could I expect that from another person. I'm just not programmed like that. I need the ability to say no, simply because I'm not in the mood, in order to feel sexually secure. To me, sex is something I choose to give, not something another person is entitled to. But I couldn't subject someone to a sexless marriage, and wouldn't stay with someone I just never wanted sex with.


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> [Another poster's] partner wants sex daily, [he] wants it monthly. So [he] thinks a fair compromise is twice a month.
> 
> This type of nonsense is the result of folks seeing monogamy as an unconditional commitment. They don't seem to grasp that - healthy monogamy is both a request for fidelity and a commitment to take care of your partners desire for sex.


I think that this is an oversimplification, but have been through major sexual dry spells where I could see myself echoing your sentiment. That was a time in my marriage when communication had completely broken down, and we lacked the tools that we needed to rebuild our sexual intimacy. That doesn't mean that she wasn't committed. I think she felt guilty about not wanting sex, but had no idea how to communicate that (much less solve the problem). 

These days things are better. Like the poster that you cite, my wife "joneses" for sex about once a month. She will get pleasure from it maybe three times a month. Any more than that and she is gracious, but doesn't become aroused or get any pleasure other than from meeting my needs.

I think that this is where "good faith" becomes important. As the HD spouse, my commitment to love and cherish her has to be balanced with her commitment to take care of my sexual needs. That is the reason that we compromise. 

For us, the compromise is that she is always graciously receptive to my advances (with obvious exceptions). She is free to decline (and often does), but I need her to be gracious about it. No cold shoulders in bed or ignoring me until I stop. For my part, I graciously "back off" if it's obvious that she's making an effort but it's just not happening for her on any given attempt. I could insist that she take care of my need for sex without regard to her own arousal, but that seems equally selfish to me. I would much rather endure being waved off and wait for a moment when we can both enjoy it than have a one sided interlude.

I think that a lot of people would say that the definition of a compromise is an agreement that doesn't make anyone completely happy. Some people would say that a compromise is an agreement that gives everyone a reason to celebrate. Some compromises don't have a formal agreement. Twice or three times a month is a compromise of sorts, but not because we struck a bargain and made up calendar to keep score. It's just the way that it works out. If asked, I would probably respond the way that the poster that you quoted did. We have a compromise.


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

OpenWindows said:


> My boyfriend and I are both a bit LD. Neither of us gets sex whenever we want, but we're both fine with that.


I have noticed a tendency for women to believe that men are fine with less sex than they (the male half) would like. I think that men are sometimes to blame for this, because we don't want to make the person that we love feel pressured or bad. Especially when we're dating! That chemical rush helps us overlook all manner of bumps in the road. 

It's up to you to decide if your beau is being honest with you, or just trying to make sure that you feel wanted, loved, and accepted for who you are. Your Beau may be speaking the truth, the truth as he sees it, or the truth as he wants it to be. As Ronald Reagan once said, "Trust, but verify." Listen to what he says, but observe how he responds. Learn to read each other's body language.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

pplwatching said:


> It's up to you to decide if your beau is being honest with you, or just trying to make sure that you feel wanted, loved, and accepted for who you are. Your Beau may be speaking the truth, the truth as he sees it, or the truth as he wants it to be. As Ronald Reagan once said, "Trust, but verify." Listen to what he says, but observe how he responds. Learn to read each other's body language.


I believe him. His words and actions line up perfectly. He has some sexual issues of his own, and has usually been in relationships where he's felt pressured and inadequate. Our sexual quirks line up quite nicely. I know the whole thing sounds unusual, but we're kind of an unusual pair.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

OpenWindows said:


> *We basically go with the belief that sex should only happen if it's enjoyed on both sides*. He has some performance issues, and I was the LD in a mismatched marriage, so we're both grateful for the lack of pressure. When we have sex, it's very good and enjoyed on both sides. If that means sometimes someone doesn't get sex when they're in the mood... well there's always next time.
> 
> I know this wouldn't work for a lot of people here, but it works perfectly for us!


You're not alone Openwindows. We're the same. There has to be sexual desire on both sides. The idea of duty sex or having to ask to 'get' sex is something neither of us wants. 

Personally, it would hurt my feelings if I felt I had to ask my husband for sex. I want him to want me, to find me sexually attractive. Based on previous bumps we've experienced, he feels the same way. 

I posted this before but at our lowest point, my husband told me that sexually, he wanted enthusiasm equivalent to the Raider Nation cheering section but all he was getting from me was a golf clap. 

So yeah.....no 'giving' sex at our house. We're either both ready to sweat or it ain't happening. Happens 2- 3 times a week.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

Lila said:


> So yeah.....no 'giving' sex at our house. We're either both ready to sweat or it ain't happening. Happens 2- 3 times a week.


Yeah, 'giving' sex doesn't fly with us. If I offer maintenance sex, he graciously turns it down. There's not really standalone oral for one person only, either (I'd be willing, and he knows it, but he always turns it down). Some times are oral-only for both... but not one-sided favors (although one person climaxing when the other can't is perfectly fine... sometimes it's just not happening).

It was a weird transition at first, after a decade of duty sex with my HD ex-husband who just assumed I wouldn't enjoy sex, so there was no point in him trying. But this is the most fulfilling sexual relationship I've had... and BF is also the only guy who's ever been able to consistently give me orgasms. Apparently I perform much better when I don't feel pressured.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

PPL,
I posted two distinct and somewhat opposing viewpoints - in adjacent paragraphs. The combination of the two, reflect my sentiment. The paragraph you reference is only half the picture.

As far as your mindset goes, it strikes me as very considerate. 

Based on reading many tens of thousands of posts, my belief is that most communication problems are related to ego protection. 

I'll tie that back to your approach to sex - which is free of the type ego protecting behavior that is so very common. The ability to calmly accept reality as is - without being offended or defensive - is as rare as it is beautiful. 






pplwatching said:


> I think that this is an oversimplification, but have been through major sexual dry spells where I could see myself echoing your sentiment. That was a time in my marriage when communication had completely broken down, and we lacked the tools that we needed to rebuild our sexual intimacy. That doesn't mean that she wasn't committed. I think she felt guilty about not wanting sex, but had no idea how to communicate that (much less solve the problem).
> 
> These days things are better. Like the poster that you cite, my wife "joneses" for sex about once a month. She will get pleasure from it maybe three times a month. Any more than that and she is gracious, but doesn't become aroused or get any pleasure other than from meeting my needs.
> 
> ...


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> PPL,
> I posted two distinct and somewhat opposing viewpoints - in adjacent paragraphs. The combination of the two, reflect my sentiment. The paragraph you reference is only half the picture.


Point taken. I did remove the part that wasn't related to my comment. My wife calls it selective hearing :grin2:


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
"would kill for it" is a colloquialism. There are perfectly valid reasons a person might be extremely unhappy with their sex life, but still feel constrained (by love, children, a sacred oath, etc) to stay with their spouse. They might even be unhappy about their sex lives but still overall enjoy the marriage.

With many LD partners you are left with 
Leave, cheat, live like a monk. 








Personal said:


> Actually no you wouldn't!
> 
> Despite all of your one line pontificating you are evidently a passive man.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I don't subscribe to the mindset of limiting your options to: 
- leave, 
- cheat or 
- accept having forced celibacy rammed down your throat

For the purpose of this conversation - it doesn't matter why the following series of discussions occurred, merely that they did happen. 

My wife and life partner said one night, and this is a verbatim quote: I can't imagine having to sleep with you for the next 15-20 years. 

So that came out of the blue, out of left field so to speak. We had been in a stable 2/week routine for a long time - I was under e impression she was good with it. 

I'm not going to cheat. Not wired that way. Not into the hardcore lying and gaslighting. That seems cruel to me. Marriage felt good to me overall, so I wasn't going to end it. Not going to threaten M2 with divorce to extort sex from her. And - then this other option. Having someone basically demand my celibacy. Total non starter. Not even open for discussion, much less debate. 

I've seen the movie 'fatal attraction'. Don't want anyone stalking my family. Killing our pets or worse. 

So I told M2 we could take as long a break as she wanted, I'd get a full body massage with a happy ending a couple times a week. 

I was planning to tell her I'd rotate places, girls to avoid even the minuscule risk of forming an attachment. Didn't get that far. 

I got the full throttle 'primal plus' response. This is a paraphrase but pretty much the message: 

- You are mine. All mine. 
- If anyone else comes near your equipment - I will physically hurt you - with the aid of a knife.
- Followed by weeks of hysterical bonding sex.

It was actually kind of entertaining. I never apologized. Not even close. She must have said at least a half dozen times - while we were having sex. 

You think I'm going to let someone else touch you like this. And not hurt you physically. 

I just smiled and stuck with the truth. Far as I'm concerned this whole thing was YOUR IDEA. You're the one wanted a 'break'.





richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> "would kill for it" is a colloquialism. There are perfectly valid reasons a person might be extremely unhappy with their sex life, but still feel constrained (by love, children, a sacred oath, etc) to stay with their spouse. They might even be unhappy about their sex lives but still overall enjoy the marriage.
> 
> With many LD partners you are left with
> Leave, cheat, live like a monk.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

"Does your spouse give you sex whenever you want? "

I find the wording "give you sex" very odd. A lot of people on TAM say it that way. I would never give anyone sex. The wording sounds like duty.

Now, having sex with each other, as a mutual act, is cool... daily if at all possible. But the day I start giving sex, or the day someone starts 'giving me sex' is the day I plan to leave. Duty is not what sex is about.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> "Does your spouse give you sex whenever you want? "
> 
> *I find the wording "give you sex" very odd*. A lot of people on TAM say it that way. I would never give anyone sex. The wording sounds like duty.
> 
> Now, having sex with each other, as a mutual act, is cool... daily if at all possible. But the day I start giving sex, or the day someone starts 'giving me sex' is the day I plan to leave. Duty is not what sex is about.


Totally agree EG which is why I had a little dig in my reply using* "get" *



> As long as we are not in the middle of having a dinner party or at the supermarket, then yes we both *"get"* sex whenever we want.


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## Feeling lost and lonely (Dec 15, 2015)

Been married almost 9 years and I stopped to initiate long time ago. Her reasons being tired, hurting from work or sick she had no interest but for year and half or so she slept with two other guys at different multiple times while I was working or on weekends when I were home and took care of our twins.
Now I just don't care anymore about it and that has made it a lot easier. 

Sent from my XT830C using Tapatalk


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Please advise Personals spouse he is gone if the sex decreases. And no whining about it.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Sure she does. Until she can't perform up to your standards


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> PPL,
> I posted two distinct and somewhat opposing viewpoints - in adjacent paragraphs. The combination of the two, reflect my sentiment. The paragraph you reference is only half the picture.
> 
> As far as your mindset goes, it strikes me as very considerate.
> ...


astute observation. if people would only get this.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I'm glad that worked in your case. In mine, I think my wife would have reacted much more negatively to that approach. 

There are probably a lot of reasons people are LD. 



MEM11363 said:


> snip
> 
> So I told M2 we could take as long a break as she wanted, I'd get a full body massage with a happy ending a couple times a week.
> 
> ...


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Agreed again Richard


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## Conceal.Dont.Feel (Apr 20, 2015)

This thread is so depressing to me. I can't believe the number of respondents who are women with high sexual desire (or any sexual desire).

My answer is NO. My wife is LD (or better to say NO Desire). She has no sex NEED. She has never masturbated. She has no drive to do so. In the 30 years we have been together, she has initiated maybe 5 times and that is only shortly after days of me pleading with her, so she does so not out of her need but out of her desire to make me happy. I stopped trying that technique decades ago. 

I only recently, (past 13 months) came to understand the type of relationship I am in (classic HD/LD mismatch) and to understand my own sexual desires and hers. I have read the books, tried the advice, had numerous talks over the past year although I rarely can get her to engage in a conversation about sex... and have since become increasingly depressed at realization of the years gone by with a dissatisfying sex life and the inability to change her.

Before anyone jumps on me about how I am whining, being passive aggressive, can divorce, have control to change my situation- I know. I have come to terms with the fact that I can change it. But not now. Not yet. I look forward to a day when I can. The main thing allowing me to continue to try to work on this with her (aside for 30 years of shared lives) is that I hope that the day does come when I can have that type of relationship, with or without her.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

I actually feel sad for those that are in sexless marriages. I cannot relate to it, so any advice I may have would not be from experience. All I can do is say, just keep trying. Go to the professionals that specialize in this area. Whatever you can to keep hope alive. I will also add that I think it is very selfish on the part of the LD partner to not do what needs to be done to make it easier for his or her marriage to be happy. Sex is very important in maintaining an emotional connection with the person you're married to.

There is absolutely nothing I can say or do that will make things better for you. The LD partner needs to find out what it is that is causing it, see how their libido can be revived, and take the necessary steps to get back in touch with themselves and their partner on a sexual level. Not do so is the epitome of selfishness, in my opinion. I say all of this not to be mean or vindictive, but as a person who can't imagine not enjoying the emotional connection of sex inside of marriage.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Richard,
From your overall depiction, it's obvious your wife loves, respects and trusts you. 

It's also true that your sexual frequency is shaped like a sawtooth wave with a very low frequency. When you reach a 'breaking point', and convey it, she spikes the sexual frequency and then very slowly, very gradually she cuts it back. Rinse, repeat. 

It may not even be a conscious thing, but it sure looks from the outside as if she is taking advantage of your chivalrous nature. 

Situation reversed, I don't think you'd do that to her. 






richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> I'm glad that worked in your case. In mine, I think my wife would have reacted much more negatively to that approach.
> 
> There are probably a lot of reasons people are LD.


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## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> I don't subscribe to the mindset of limiting your options to:
> - leave,
> - cheat or
> - accept having forced celibacy rammed down your throat
> ...


Glad that it worked for you. Hopefully it worked for her too.

My wife would also have a full throttle 'primal plus' response, but it would be

- You are mine. All mine. 
- I will physically hurt you - with the aid of a knife.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

I think Richard is doing all he can. As we all are. Despite the opinions of some.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Yes, her actions are indistinguishable from intentional. That doesn't mean that the ARE intentional, but the look like it. 

I've chosen to believe that it is not intentional, but there is no way I can know for sure.






MEM11363 said:


> Richard,
> From your overall depiction, it's obvious your wife loves, respects and trusts you.
> 
> It's also true that your sexual frequency is shaped like a sawtooth wave with a very low frequency. When you reach a 'breaking point', and convey it, she spikes the sexual frequency and then very slowly, very gradually she cuts it back. Rinse, repeat.
> ...


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Richard-s;

My heart goes out to you. I think I can understand your pain. 

Ultimately 180's are all about not settling for the status quo and trying to change the dynamic in your marriage for the better. 

We all get to make our own choices in life. Life is short, but then again, life can be lonely without someone you care about deeply and share a lot with. 

Ultimately, you need to determine if you are a character in Jean-Paul Sartre's play No Exit. We and the people we are with make our own Hell. We can also make it a paradise. It is up to us to choose, to risk, and to endure/enjoy what we choose.

I really do wish you good luck. When I was in my sex starved marriage, I found posting and sharing my fears, frustrations and hopes to be very cathartic and calming. I also learned a lot form the advice of others.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

MichelleR said:


> Okay so I joined here quite recently and have been hooked. I do not have a lot of friends so I don't have many people to talk to, plus most of them don't reveal intimate details about their marriage.
> 
> I'm noticing a lot of LD/HD couples here and am curious to know how common it is. Now I understand that the members of TAM is probably not representative of the general population but I'm still curious.
> 
> Does your husband or wife give you sex whenever you want (in general, not 100% due to valid circumstances) or are you regularly denied? In my marriage I'd say we initiate pretty- much 50/50 and both are just about always willing to satisfy the other. I'm wondering if that is common or if we are just really lucky.



HD / LD married couple here.

I'm HD and my wife is LD.


Mrs.CuddleBug is usually not in the mood but expects talking, cuddling, hugs, kisses, etc.

When I'm in the mood, I initiated but since she is LD and turned me down so many times, I stopped.

If we have sex now, she has to initiate. I'd say 1x month we have sex. Don't think we've ever had sex 1x or more every week since we got married 16+ years ago.....


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

As has been stated by many already a good marriage is about much more than sexual frequency.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

It never fails to astound me that we condemn denying human beings their basic needs out in the world, but somehow denying basic human needs in the home is exempt.

If the LD spouse punched the HD spouse or regularly berated the LD spouse verbally, people would be screaming "LEAVE THAT SUCH AND SUCH!", but it's perfectly ok for the LD spouse to psychologically and emotionally torture the HD spouse for years on end...


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

That's a gross oversimplification


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Okguy said:


> That's a gross oversimplification


Really? How so? Are you saying that denying a human being the basic needs of being touched and desired by their own mate isn't a form of psychological torture? The endless days and nights of rejection, the damage to self esteem, the wondering why, the hurt and pain, the physical and mental side effects of enforced celibacy, the loss of the very real myriad benefits physical and mental of having sex,etc etc isn't extremely damaging to the mind, heart, and soul of the victim?

No, my friend, it's very simple. It only becomes complicated when the victim has gotten to the point where s/he is too beaten down and afraid to leave what is a simply a more subtle form of abuse.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

You are describing a marriage with no sex or intimacy or any signs of love st all. In that case I would agree.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MJJ,
Perhaps it would be helpful to deconstruct the pieces of the puzzle and address them separately. 

The simplest and often most elusive is: Raw desire/lust. 

I absolutely believe that the typical LD, has a responsibility to figure out what works for them and what doesn't. And then be honest about it. 

For instance, a common phenomenon in today's world is: someone lets themselves go, gains a lot of weight, finds their own body a turnoff and stops having sex. 

A lot of LD's hide behind the: I just find talking about sex too uncomfortable. 

I also believe that a lot of HD's don't create a communication friendly environment. If the HD partner responds to feedback in a defensive way, game over. 

And even in an environment where both folks are acting in good faith, this stuff can be hard. For instance, telling your easy going spouse (who's lovable because they are that way) you want them to flip a switch and be dominant/take charge in bed. That is not an easy switch to flip. 

Equally difficult to tell your ambitious, driven spouse (whose ambition and drive attracted you in the first place), to slow the fvck down and let you set the pace in bed, because they are always one step ahead of your responsive desire and that FEELS BAD. 







MJJEAN said:


> Really? How so? Are you saying that denying a human being the basic needs of being touched and desired by their own mate isn't a form of psychological torture? The endless days and nights of rejection, the damage to self esteem, the wondering why, the hurt and pain, the physical and mental side effects of enforced celibacy, the loss of the very real myriad benefits physical and mental of having sex,etc etc isn't extremely damaging to the mind, heart, and soul of the victim?
> 
> No, my friend, it's very simple. It only becomes complicated when the victim has gotten to the point where s/he is too beaten down and afraid to leave what is a simply a more subtle form of abuse.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Remember we teach people how to treat us as well. Sex is a high priority for me so I won't be part of a relationship where it is purposely denied to me. Every relationship I have ever had We had that discussion and very clear understanding of what that meant. I only ever had one woman test me on it and I made her head spin how fast I was out of there. This reason alone I believe is why I have never been in a sexless relationship.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Okguy said:


> You are describing a marriage with no sex or intimacy or any signs of love st all. In that case I would agree.


No. I was actually describing a marriage where sex is infrequent in the eyes of one spouse. 

According to the shrinks, a sexless marriage is defined as one where sex occurs about 12 times a year. I don't consider that sexless, because sex does occur. It's just infrequent. 

BUT, it is infrequent enough that one spouse spends about 3+ weeks at a time being basically mentally and emotionally battered while dealing with the effects of enforced celibacy, only to maybe get to have sex with their own spouse, so that the cycle can endlessly repeat.

I'm not buying the "other signs of affection" thing. Most of what I hear described by these sexless spouses is something along the lines of talking, joking around, hugging, sharing chores, making decisions together, helping each other when ill, history together, caring,etc.

Well, yeah, but I share that kind of relationship with a lot of friends and family members. I love them, I talk and joke with them, we bounce things off each other when making decisions, I can call for help and will respond to a call for help when ill, and we all hug, we have years of memories (in some cases, decades) and we help with each others kids. Sharing chores is what people do when they share a household. Family, friends, roomies, whatever.

The difference between love and in love, between friends and mates, is sex and sexual attraction. Without that, it's friendship. And, as I have said before, I can be someone friends without having to be married to that person.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Every relationship I ever had before marriage never had any sexual problems because we were always having sex. It was never discussed. It just was. And it was always good. Now if I had married any of those women perhaps twenty years later there's a pretty good chance I wouldn't be having the frequency of sex I had at the beginning. I'm just thankful I still have the quality of sex I enjoy while not having the frequency.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> No. I was actually describing a marriage where sex is infrequent in the eyes of one spouse.
> 
> According to the shrinks, a sexless marriage is defined as one where sex occurs about 12 times a year. I don't consider that sexless, because sex does occur. It's just infrequent.
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more. Sex is defining characteristic of what separates a female friend from a female significant other. If I'm not having sex with my SO then we are basically just friends and roommates. Great if some people would like to live that way but I wouldn't. I have enough friends.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> MJJ,
> Perhaps it would be helpful to deconstruct the pieces of the puzzle and address them separately.
> 
> The simplest and often most elusive is: Raw desire/lust.
> ...


As a former LD wife, I love this post!

It's really easy to blame another person for your discomfort. It's much harder to take a step back and look at ALL the moving parts in the machine. In my case, my drive was naturally low, and that was something I tried to work on. But my husband was not at all accepting of it, and felt that I was broken and needed to be fixed. That attitude made the situation worse, but he didn't believe that and therefore didn't address it.

So he got regular sex, because I could control that... but not much enthusiasm, as that was my natural response to his behavior. In my current relationship, there is no attitude that I'm broken. This leads to my boyfriend getting a decent amount of sex that is very enthusiastic!


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

I would agree mjj that infrequent sex is difficult and very frustrating at times. But as I just stated above sexual frequency is subject to change over time.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Okguy said:


> Every relationship I ever had before marriage never had any sexual problems because we were always having sex. It was never discussed. It just was. And it was always good. Now if I had married any of those women perhaps twenty years later there's a pretty good chance I wouldn't be having the frequency of sex I had at the beginning. I'm just thankful I still have the quality of sex I enjoy while not having the frequency.


True. We never know how people will change. And honestly you can't do anything to control another person so if they, for whatever reason, cut off sex not much you can do about it. But you do get to control what you do. Some people stay and some people go. Just depends on your views on it I suppose.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Open perhaps if your first boyfriend got enthusiastic sex you'd still be with him.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> You're not alone Openwindows. We're the same. There has to be sexual desire on both sides. The idea of duty sex or having to ask to 'get' sex is something neither of us wants.
> 
> Personally, it would hurt my feelings if I felt I had to ask my husband for sex. I want him to want me, to find me sexually attractive. Based on previous bumps we've experienced, he feels the same way.
> 
> ...


Is it that one of you is "ready to sweat" 7 days a week and the other is ready 2-3 times a week? Or are each of you "ready" 5 times per week and the 2-3 times are just the days that you happen to sync up? Or, by some miracle to you both happen to only be in the same mood at the exact same time?

If one of you changed to being "ready" once a month (decreased T with age for him?, menopause for you?), and the other remained as ready as always, would that cause a problem? Say you had an event that greatly decreased your libido so that you rarely had a spontaneous desire to have sex, would your marriage suffer? Is there anything that could be done about it?

Depending on both partners to be ready at the same time often enough to satisfy both seems like something of a crap shoot. So far you've been fortunate, I hope that doesn't change. 

Having sex when both partners have spontaneous desire is the ideal. It just seems a bit dangerous to count on perfect conditions existing at all times.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

Okguy said:


> Open perhaps if your first boyfriend got enthusiastic sex you'd still be with him.


He did, in the beginning. But he felt that bringing me to orgasm was too much work and I should just do it myself. He couldn't understand why repeatedly telling a woman that her sex drive and her vagina don't work right could turn her off. Really, they work just fine... Just not the way he WANTED them to work.

If he could have taken a step back, acknowledged the way I am, and tried to work with that (as I did with him), he would have gotten more enthusiasm. But by stubbornly demanding that his drive was right and mine was wrong and I should change, he helped widen the gap between us.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> MJJ,
> Perhaps it would be helpful to deconstruct the pieces of the puzzle and address them separately.
> 
> The simplest and often most elusive is: Raw desire/lust.
> ...


So, back to raw desire. This is something people over complicate. Sometimes, the simplest answer is the right one. And, in a lot of cases, no matter how many hoops one jumps through or how many tricks they learn trying to unlock their spouse's desire, the reality is that they're just a bad chemical match and nothing will change that fact.

Would either DH or I have put the effort into weight management and BDSM if we weren't chemically compatible, if we didn't have that baseline lust? No. We'd have gone our separate ways as friends and co-parents.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> Depending on both partners to be ready at the same time often enough to satisfy both seems like something of a crap shoot. So far you've been fortunate, I hope that doesn't change.
> 
> Having sex when both partners have spontaneous desire is the ideal. It just seems a bit dangerous to count on perfect conditions existing at all times.


How are we defining spontaneous desire?

For me and DH, we can be desirous of sex and reach for each other at the same time or one of us could desire sex and get the other in the mood. For example, if I were busy an not thinking about sex, DH may come over to me for a random affectionate kiss, linger a bit too long, hold me a bit close, let his hands wander, and I'm good.

I consider both of those to be spontaneous due to lack of planning.

Hmm, come to think of it, we don't plan sex very often and then only when we're doing something special that requires set up.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MJJ,
The limerance thing is a big one. Very dangerous to marry someone before that wears off and you both discover what steady state feels like. 




MJJEAN said:


> So, back to raw desire. This is something people over complicate. Sometimes, the simplest answer is the right one. And, in a lot of cases, no matter how many hoops one jumps through or how many tricks they learn trying to unlock their spouse's desire, the reality is that they're just a bad chemical match and nothing will change that fact.
> 
> Would either DH or I have put the effort into weight management and BDSM if we weren't chemically compatible, if we didn't have that baseline lust? No. We'd have gone our separate ways as friends and co-parents.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> How are we defining spontaneous desire?
> 
> For me and DH, we can be desirous of sex and reach for each other at the same time or one of us could desire sex and get the other in the mood. For example, if I were busy an not thinking about sex, DH may come over to me for a random affectionate kiss, linger a bit too long, hold me a bit close, let his hands wander, and I'm good.
> 
> ...


I would define spontaneous desire as the desire to have sex without any input from your partner.

If you aren't thinking about having sex but, once you get started, you enjoy it; that's responsive desire.

If you have responsive desire and refuse to have sex unless you're already aroused, then that's going to limit the amount of sex you have.

On the other hand, if you aren't aroused but your partner initiates and you are willing to start knowing that you will probably become aroused then it's less likely that there will be problems.

If you are rarely aroused and, even after giving it a try, you're still not aroused; I'm guessing that's No Desire.

When people talk about not having sex unless they are both in the mood, I'm assuming that they both have spontaneous desire before sex is even considered.

If you have No Desire, then you shouldn't force sex. Of course, it's highly unlikely that the relationship is gong to work if your partner enjoys sex.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

I have responsive desire. I define "in the mood" as being willing to try, and not particularly turned off. But if a person doesn't understand their own responsive desire (or their partner's), that's when the signals start getting mixed up.

The responsive partner has a responsibility to try. But the spontaneous partner must be willing to graciously back off, if the responsive partner tries and it still doesn't happen sometimes. If they take it as an insult or laziness, it damages the sexual relationship.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Buddy,

Good definitions. This type thing is the origin of many men saying that: no one can understand a woman

That statement isn't true, but it feels true for folks who don't differentiate between different types of activities. 

M2 hates - I mean hates - to be groped. But she LOVES to be mauled. Over powered. 

Her ideal ignition sequence looks like this: 
- Physically aggressive, dominant behavior - that isn't explicitly sexual. This is the 'over power' without groping model. 
- There is some fighting happening at this stage. Definitely hits the non concensual sex circuit board. And THAT produces a type of heat which no amount of technique can generate.

IME - The goal is to produce heat/lust WITHOUT doing anything that - might feel icky (did I just write that?) prior to arousal. 




Buddy400 said:


> I would define spontaneous desire as the desire to have sex without any input from your partner.
> 
> If you aren't thinking about having sex but, once you get started, you enjoy it; that's responsive desire.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Open,

Acceptance is a big deal. The interesting thing about all this is that 
when we got married I was a perfect example of that Mark Twain quote.

It's not the things you don't know, but rather the things you know that aren't so, which really get you into trouble. 

When we got married I thought I was good in bed. In hindsight I'd say, that at the point of marriage I had: Solid physical technique and decent restraint in terms of lasting during intercourse. 

During limerance that's enough. I knew little about all the stuff you can do/avoid outside the bedroom - that either amplifies or suppresses desire. 

Nothing at all about physical dominance. Was raised to never strike or physically intimidate a woman. 

M2 TAUGHT ME EVERYTHING I KNOW about that stuff. Without a solid grasp of 
- your partners turn ons and turn offs outside the bedroom
- dominance and/or 
- pacing 
you can have the best technique in the world, and end up sexless. 





OpenWindows said:


> As a former LD wife, I love this post!
> 
> It's really easy to blame another person for your discomfort. It's much harder to take a step back and look at ALL the moving parts in the machine. In my case, my drive was naturally low, and that was something I tried to work on. But my husband was not at all accepting of it, and felt that I was broken and needed to be fixed. That attitude made the situation worse, but he didn't believe that and therefore didn't address it.
> 
> So he got regular sex, because I could control that... but not much enthusiasm, as that was my natural response to his behavior. In my current relationship, there is no attitude that I'm broken. This leads to my boyfriend getting a decent amount of sex that is very enthusiastic!


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> I would define spontaneous desire as the desire to have sex without any input from your partner.
> 
> If you aren't thinking about having sex but, once you get started, you enjoy it; that's responsive desire.


Then I'd say I'm about 75% spontaneous and 25% responsive. I'm either in the mood or a nudge away from being in the mood.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

OpenWindows said:


> I have responsive desire. I define "in the mood" as being willing to try, and not particularly turned off. But if a person doesn't understand their own responsive desire (or their partner's), that's when the signals start getting mixed up.
> 
> The responsive partner has a responsibility to try. *But the spontaneous partner must be willing to graciously back off, *if the responsive partner tries and it still doesn't happen sometimes. If they take it as an insult or laziness, it damages the sexual relationship.


I agree and disagree with some of what you are saying. I am the HD in and HD/LD couple. My W may even be responsive desire as opposed to LD. 

Yes, both partners have a responsibility to try. Yes if the responsive partner wants to stop, the HD partner should not force them to do anything they don't want to do. However, the responsive partner should not engage in an elaborate form of tease and denial, either. 

The stars really have to be aligned right for my wife to orgasm. Sometimes she will start and she will either remember some work stress that completely destroys the mood for her. At those times she may want to stop or she may give me the gift of her body to prove to herself that she can pleasure me and enjoy the act of her pleasuring me. My wife really does desire sex less than I do. I have learned that. Still she doesn't want me to feel denied all the time. When we had a sex starved marriage at times she told me that she felt like a sexual failure. She doesn't feel that way anymore and that give her a sense of pride and accomplishment.

I agree that the non responsive partner needs to back off, but sometimes the responsive partner also needs to push forward and "just do it!"


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Young,
The tough thing is that many, many HD posters in sex starved marriages open their thread with some version of: 

When we do it, it's great for her and she always comes. 

---------
A few general comments about those openers. 
1. IME, those posters tend to cling to the belief that orgasm = overall good experience, as if their life depended on it. 

Me - I don't believe that. Convinced you can have a good (maybe not great but good) experience without rapturing IF the reasons you don't aren't tied to partner: indifference or incompetence. 

And you can have an O, but the process overall wasn't so great. 

Because I don't believe that there are all these women out there who find the entire experience good and orgasm and yet they are constantly saying NO. 
2. When I suggest they ask questions about - what parts of the experience aren't maybe so good for their partner, they don't seem open to having those conversations with their partner. 

I've shared this in MANY threads - and I will repeat it here. 

What I think may be happening with some couples sort of looks like this. The woman pretends the experience was way better than it really was. The man ACTS like it was a symmetrical experience partly because he wants to believe that and partly because his partner makes it easy for him to (in the moment). 

This is WAY different than a situation where it IS one sided and that fact is 'common knowledge'. Now it's a situation where it's one sided, but the person on the give side needs to pretend that it was equally fun. And that must be quite the breeding ground for resentment. 

-----------
Why not start at the beginning. If your partner is avoiding sex - acknowledge that it must not be that good for them overall. And work together on making it better. 

I'm convinced the reason M2 actively offers a decent amount of one sided encounters is because when they happen it's common knowledge that's what they are. We BOTH acknowledge it for what it is. And that's not due to my indifference (nor hopefully incompetence) but rather her mental state isn't always conducive to the rapture.....




Young at Heart said:


> I agree and disagree with some of what you are saying. I am the HD in and HD/LD couple. My W may even be responsive desire as opposed to LD.
> 
> Yes, both partners have a responsibility to try. Yes if the responsive partner wants to stop, the HD partner should not force them to do anything they don't want to do. However, the responsive partner should not engage in an elaborate form of tease and denial, either.
> 
> ...


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

The minute my husband asked about me "giving him" sex, we'd already have an issue. Phrasing it that way just has a "hit and quit it" mentality written all over it.

Had a man (well boy, really) who wanted that once. Promised myself no more of that.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

It's fine to just do it on occasion, but it's a dangerous habit to form.

The problem with "just doing it", is that if it happens too often, it starts to be accepted as normal. Then the HD partner can easily adopt the attitude that the LD won't enjoy it anyway, and should just do it. Slowly, the couple stops exploring what could make the LD more willing and enthusiastic, and they fall into a rut.

It's fine to sometimes selflessly meet your partners needs. But I have to draw a line in the sand about how often I'm willing to do that... otherwise my own needs get rug-swept.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Just for clarity - when it's obvious it's going to be one way - I defer til tomorrow and sometimes do that a few days in a row. 

It isn't always obvious. And it is a no go to say to M2: I only want to play if you are confident you can orgasm. She hates the pressure. 




OpenWindows said:


> It's fine to just do it on occasion, but it's a dangerous habit to form.
> 
> The problem with "just doing it", is that if it happens too often, it starts to be accepted as normal. Then the HD partner can easily adopt the attitude that the LD won't enjoy it anyway, and should just do it. Slowly, the couple stops exploring what could make the LD more willing and enthusiastic, and they fall into a rut.
> 
> It's fine to sometimes selflessly meet your partners needs. But I have to draw a line in the sand about how often I'm willing to do that... otherwise my own needs get rug-swept.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Just for clarity - when it's obvious it's going to be one way - I defer til tomorrow and sometimes do that a few days in a row.
> 
> It isn't always obvious. And it is a no go to say to M2: I only want to play if you are confident you can orgasm. She hates the pressure.


I don't blame her... I don't think I'm ever confident I can orgasm! And the pressure makes it so much worse. 

I think your methods sound pretty fair, MEM.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

My wife always orgasms and has for 25 years.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

She doesn't need to tell me.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

I'm not embarrassed in the least. But thanks for your concern.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> Is it that one of you is "ready to sweat" 7 days a week and the other is ready 2-3 times a week? Or are each of you "ready" 5 times per week and the 2-3 times are just the days that you happen to sync up? Or, by some miracle to you both happen to only be in the same mood at the exact same time?


I have never thought about it in terms of who's ready when.

I've posted about this before but my first serious relationship was with a man with whom I was NOT sexually compatible. He wanted way more from me sexually than I was willing to deliver. Getting asked for bjs, hjs, and sex 'all of the time' made me feel worthless and turned me off to him. The lack of sexual compatibility killed any sexual desire that I had for him. Outside of sex, we were incredibly compatible....but I ended the relationship following another 'we need to talk about the quality of sex' fight. 

This has never been the case with my husband. I've always had desire for him and I believe it's because we are sexually compatible. I want to have sex with him because it's 'natural' and 'normal'......for us I honestly can't remember the last time my husband asked for a stand-alone bj or hj, or quickie. I do these things because i'm turned on and want to do them (have desire), not because I feel pressured to do it. Again, we're sexually compatible. 



Buddy400 said:


> If one of you changed to being "ready" once a month (decreased T with age for him?, menopause for you?), and the other remained as ready as always, would that cause a problem? Say you had an event that greatly decreased your libido so that you rarely had a spontaneous desire to have sex, would your marriage suffer? Is there anything that could be done about it?


H and I have dealt with this, to some extent, from both sides. My libido blanked out after the birth of my son and he went through a long period where he suffered performance anxiety as a result of high stress. Neither of us ever expected to have to deal with these things in our 30s but we did and came out of both stints better for it. Did our marriage suffer for it? Well, it did until we stopped making sexual fulfillment a requirement for intimacy in the relationship. Once we recognized that sexual fulfillment is actually an element of intimacy and not the other way around, we were fine.

Because of our earlier experiences with ED and lost desire, we have discussed the natural aging process and menopause or decreased T. We both agreed that the benefits of hrt (for either) are not worth the risks. It is our hope that we continue to be in sync sexually even into our golden years. Hopefully, menopause and decreased testosterone due to age will happen at the same time, but if it doesn't, I think we'll be fine if we make intimacy the goal.



Buddy400 said:


> Depending on both partners to be ready at the same time often enough to satisfy both seems like something of a crap shoot. So far you've been fortunate, I hope that doesn't change.
> 
> Having sex when both partners have spontaneous desire is the ideal. It just seems a bit dangerous to count on perfect conditions existing at all times.


I guess it depends on how one defines intimacy. Sexual fulfillment is one of several ways for a couple to share intimacy. It's only as important as the people in the relationship make it to be. Some people think it's the primary, and really only option. Others don't. We fall into the latter category. It's probably why having synced sexual desire doesn't seem like a 'crap shoot'. 

And to be clear, I never said we both function on spontaneous desire. Keeping the fires alive takes work. We both know that. Sexual attraction has to be cultivated and cannot be taken for granted. On his part, my husband does his best to stay physically attractive to me, he does his best to meet my needs (there aren't many),and he tries to speak my love language (he struggles with that one on occasion). I hope that I'm doing the same for him. 

At the end of the day, we all have to do what works best for us. In our case, intimacy is the most important part of our relationship and sex is just one way to build intimacy.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

MichelleR said:


> Does your husband or wife give you sex whenever you want (in general, not 100% due to valid circumstances) or are you regularly denied? In my marriage I'd say we initiate pretty- much 50/50 and both are just about always willing to satisfy the other. I'm wondering if that is common or if we are just really lucky.


In the 1st 19 yrs... his drive was higher but he never complained... he initiated more so..but I also initiated as sometimes he'd wait to see how long it took for me to come on to him.. We missed each other more than we should have back then... Water under the bridge.. I have surely made up for it -in the past 8 yrs.... 

Age 42 ... my sex drive went in Over-drive / "Nympho drive"... couldn't get enough.. his DREAM ...didn't know what hit me.. He'd come home from work.. I'd tackle him ....but he couldn't keep up.. suddenly I realized how HE must have felt wanting me all those years....I asked him one night with the most serious of faces..... how in the hell did he DO THAT??!!! ... I told him I would have raised the roof off the house wanting more sex [email protected]# .....

I come to realize he felt I didn't love him as much - or wanted him as much ...but it was never this. I just didn't "get it" how fierce, unrelenting a man's drive can be -in his early years.. He never made me WAIT for it....I was always satisfied.. and he didn't rock the boat. 

He should have. 

Now we're even.. we both love it.. look forward to it.. I can't say it's because we are horny so much .... but we WANT to get there.. work it up, riding that wave together... we're so on the same page.. 

We both feel..







is the highlight of the day....


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Ideally each would be happy to provide pleasure to the other whenever they wanted it.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

But that rarely happens Richard


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

MichelleR said:


> Okay so I joined here quite recently and have been hooked. I do not have a lot of friends so I don't have many people to talk to, plus most of them don't reveal intimate details about their marriage.
> 
> I'm noticing a lot of LD/HD couples here and am curious to know how common it is. Now I understand that the members of TAM is probably not representative of the general population but I'm still curious.
> 
> Does your husband or wife give you sex whenever you want (in general, not 100% due to valid circumstances) or are you regularly denied? In my marriage I'd say we initiate pretty- much 50/50 and both are just about always willing to satisfy the other. I'm wondering if that is common or if we are just really lucky.


I have been married for 40 years and the first 15 years was much like you describe.

The next 15 years sex fell off considerably due to kids, health problems and the stress of her parents illness. Still its was about 1 or 2 times a week.

Then a 7 year spell where it was more like 1 per month. My wife is an only child and her parents got worse and eventually passed away during this time. She shut down for about 2 years after their passing and ended up getting medication for depression.

The past two years have been almost no sex at all largely due to her illnesses that eventually required two surgeries.

But I am not complaining. That is life. I still cannot imagine being with anyone other than her.

Enjoy yourselves and make the most of the time you have together.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Tdsc you are a very caring person who understands the realities of life.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
yes, but its sad. There are many men and many women who would be very happy to do whatever their partners wanted, in return for the same.




Okguy said:


> But that rarely happens Richard


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

The problem is getting those men and women together


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

MichelleR said:


> Okay so I joined here quite recently and have been hooked. I do not have a lot of friends so I don't have many people to talk to, plus most of them don't reveal intimate details about their marriage.
> 
> I'm noticing a lot of LD/HD couples here and am curious to know how common it is. Now I understand that the members of TAM is probably not representative of the general population but I'm still curious.
> 
> Does your husband or wife give you sex whenever you want (in general, not 100% due to valid circumstances) or are you regularly denied? In my marriage I'd say we initiate pretty- much 50/50 and both are just about always willing to satisfy the other. I'm wondering if that is common or if we are just really lucky.


Lucky, sounds very well balanced


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Because I don't believe that there are all these women out there who find the entire experience good and orgasm and yet they are constantly saying NO.


Sadly your belief doesn't play into it.

I have an ex-partner who has to hold back and can go within couple of minutes, but is a real chore to bed because of LD.

And an older ex-gf who was a real tough one to get things just right to send her over - but she liked to get "7 a day" (I manage 5 regularly, 6 if lucky) but she was almost as HD as I was and would occasionally initiate especially for teasing me. But she was happy enough just getting together, so if she didn't O then it wasn't a big deal for her (as long as it was at least every other day).


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## Kylie84 (May 4, 2012)

My DH and I are similar to you and yours. We are about 50/50 initiators and he has never said 'No' to me. And I have said no to him but for legit reasons. After reading so many sad stories on TAM in relation to the LD/HD thing we feel especially fortunate, and wish others could be as lucky.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> Ideally each would be happy to provide pleasure to the other whenever they wanted it.





Okguy said:


> But that rarely happens Richard


It happens in my marriage.

So it IS possible


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## Theunguy (Jan 25, 2016)

I would posit that it does not happen in most marriages sadly enough


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

It (being in sync) happens in plenty of marriages. But those people do not show up on Internet chat rooms or forums complaining about their sex life.


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## Theunguy (Jan 25, 2016)

The reality is we don't know how often it happens. Probably more often not I would think.


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