# I Really Want To Save My Marriage, Can't Seem to Get Past Her Lying - Please Help!



## DoormatNoMore53

Hello,
I am brand new to this forum. While I am familiar with forums in general (I admin one), I am very apprehensive about discussing my wife's infidelity issues in public. I don't want to come off as an idiot, and I really feel like one now after discovering what she did.

Anyway, here goes, I'm going to give it a shot as I really need some advice right now. I apologize in advance for rambling and for the length of this post. I'm just not thinking too clearly right now  

I feel like I'm at the bottom of the ocean grasping for rocks. I have a severe back condition which keeps me in constant pain. However, that pain is Nothing compared to what I'm feeling now due to her cheating and continued lying. I have NEVER felt pain like this before.

So, here's the full story. I am 58 & my wife is 57. We have been married (happily, or so I thought) for 37 years. I must be honest and tell you that due to her going through menopause, and my back condition, we've not been intimate (except for 2 times) in the last 12 years. Previous to that, we were...how do I put this...pretty wild in our sex life.

In the early mourning of November 18th I was updating my wife's laptop with some security stuff while she was sleeping. She usually has her email account closed down when she goes to bed but for some reason, this time she had her Hotmail open. I just glanced for a moment at her inbox and was shocked at some of the subject headings I saw. I then began to open some of the emails & it was like an atom bomb went off in my head & chest. I immediately began to get a severe panic attack as I read the extremely graphic verbal give & take of the messages. In addition there were also very graphic photos and some videos. I guess I was gasping and probably crying so loud my wife woke up. She saw the look on my face and asked what was the matter. Like an idiot, I returned the laptop to her and went upstairs to try and compose myself. Again, I was suffering from a major panic attack which I thought might have been a heart attack at the time. After about 15 mins., I went back downstairs to confront her about what I had found. I saw the look on her face and immediately knew that she knew she had been exposed. I can't remember the whole conversation, but I guess I asked the usual questions, like "are you in love with him", "how long has it been going on", "Are You planning on leaving me for him" etc..etc.. The answers back as I remember were "No I don't love him", "Not that long", "no she wasn't planning on leaving" etc.. At that point the pain from the panic attack became so severe, I told her I couldn't handle it and that I had to get out to collect my thoughts.

I drove around for about an hour, getting more mad, hurt & upset as I went. I really can't even begin to explain the gamete of emotions going through me. After an hour of driving, I decided to go back home and pack a bag to leave. I just couldn't be in that house right then as even though I'm not a violent man, I didn't really know what I was capable of doing. Long story short, I drove about 100 miles out of town to a motel. Oh, yeah, I forgot, we were doing some texting via phone during my drive. I was telling her I couldn't be there right then and I didn't know how long I'd be gone. She was telling me how sorry she was and how she wished that it had never happened etc.. etc..

I stayed in the hotel for three days. It was the most miserable three days of my life. We were still texting and also doing some PM's on our forum site. On November 21st, I decided I was going to move to another location. She had text me in the mourning asking how I was. The conversation seemed to be a lot calmer & I thought to myself that maybe I could go home for a little while and we could talk things over. Again, long story short, I went home & we came to a somewhat understanding that we still loved each other and maybe we could work it out. 

This is getting way too long so I'm going try to cut to the chase. 

While I was still very hurt, we did come to an understanding and were actually talking things out. A BIG part of the understanding was that the affair was completely over. Also, that it was mostly cyber sex and they had only met one time. Again to try and shorten things up, I have since discovered via tracking software I placed on her computer that she has lied to me all through this supposed reconciliation. I now know that the affair lasted for almost three years, their were numerous meetings and that she was still contacting him. It has just been a series of lies and deception on a daily basis. Every time I think I finally know the whole story, something else comes up. She says it's an obsession and she can't control it. Also that she still loves me and does not want to end our marriage. I'm so confused, I just don't know where to turn, or what to do or say anymore.

Here's the real crux of the situation. While there is much more deceit and lying to this story, I still REALLY REALLY love my wife!!! I know that may sound weird at this point but it's the truth and I can't seem to let go. I would like to find a way to fight for her and resolve things. She has agreed to counseling but I have absolutely no faith and/or trust in what she says anymore.

Please, please could someone with experience in this weigh in and offer some advice as to what I should do!? Should I just give up and leave her. Should I stay and fight for her. Should I just ask for a temporary separation? I just don't know. All I do know is that I still love her & I'm not sure I could survive without her. I do believe her relationship with this guy is sexual only. She has a term for it that I can't put here but it goes "bad word_Buddies!???? I really need help. Any comments and/or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
John


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## Eli-Zor

Read the following :-

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html

Run the 180 

Call your children and expose the affair to them 

Call the OM's wife siblings and parents and expose to them

First thing Monday go to a lawyer , understand your rights and ask him to draw up seperation papers .

Move all monies to a secure account

When she steps out of the house , change the locks , cancel all her credit cards and lock her out of the accounts.

Your wife has been in a three year affair , they have made plans and I assure you she will carry on with the affair until you make it unpleasant .

A very clear message to you , your wife is no longer the woman who loves you , she really really really does NOT give a dam about you. Do not be a doormat , your marriage can only recover if you stand up to her adultery and fight it . Exposure is a key part of that plan, the 180 is a must and preparing yourself for life without her will give you strength to make decisions . You are waging a war for your marriage , no time to be nice . Keep records of her mail and communication secure , buy a VAR and hide it in her car.

You have a major advantage , waywardness follow a script , we have a collective experience of how to counter adultery , you however 
must trust us .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Initfortheduration

She has a term for it? Well you have convinced her that she dodged a bullet. How could you stay married to someone who would rather have sex with another man, while her husband's heart is being sent through a blender. Hey if you can stand being a cuckold. Sorry nothing to offer while she is still in the affair and you are considering staying when she won't stop. You could really, Really, REALLY love her. But it doesn't matter a hill of beans as long as she goes heals up under some guy. She doesn't love you. She loves your security.


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## UnwarrantedParanoia

I am so sorry for what you are going thru. I know how painful this is. Be strong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

Cheating and lying after getting caught the first time is even worse than cheating. You can never trust such a person again. You will have to worry about her every time you are not at home, every time she goes out. Living as such would be hell without any mental peace. To have any chance to your marriage working out, file the divorce. She will know how serious you are and it will prepare you for the life after if the marriage does not work out during the separation period.

For what it is worth, this might be not the first affair she had during the marriage.


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## sadcalifornian

It's a tough choice for your wife as it seems that she is getting her unmet needs from OM. If this is the case, frankly what can you do? She has this sexual needs you cannot meet. Or, can you? 

Another reason she refuses to end the affair is that she knows that you will not leave her no matter what. This puts you in a very difficult position. I know you love her and keep this marriage, but think this way. If one finds himself/herself in an abusive relationship, he/she should be able to walk away, right? But, if the abused spouse refuse to walk away, what motivation is there for the perpetrator to stop the abuse? 

What I am saying is that although you can try some minor moves to derail her affair, but with you not wanting to put your foot down to give her the ultimatum, she may never stop this affair. Her initiating this affair is 100% her fault, but her not stopping this affair after getting found out is just as much your fault as hers in a sense. 

You will get more advices from other posters, but honestly I don't think anybody can give you a real workable strategy to end this affair, other than you needing to demand divorce if she doesn't end it. 

Sorry for your sitch.


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## Eli-Zor

Diluting the advice we give you will not help you, you have to be firm resolute and draw on your inner strength. Make the affair common knowledge, affairs thrive in secrecy shining a light on the adulterers cause problems especialy when those who impact them most start talking.

Insist on her going for an STD test. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered

So she has a highly sexually charged online affair and then meets him and they don't have sex?!


Uh...yeah right


This is trickle truth, get an std test


And add the fact she claims to have no control over her actions - that is blameshifting


You have no marriage while she continues her affair and you can't have R when she continues to lie and show no remorse (she shows guilt not remorse)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

I am 54 and my wife is 50 - married 28 years.

Last year she had a cyber affair that made me react like you. It tore me to bits.

She said it will never happen again.

Last week I confronted her while she was with someone and this affair has been going on for months.. 

As of right now there seems to have been no physical sex. They kissed once. Do I know for 100% No, but it does seem that they kissed once. I do believe that had I not called at the time I did on Tuesday that sex could have happened. My wife says that she thought it would have happened that night and was hoping the guy was willing. It did not get to the point as I confronted them.

Last year my wife lied about everything, and never fully came clean. My son told her that this time you better not lie about anything or dad will leave you. So far she has been fully cooperative.

I was prepared this year and it was not as big as shock as I had time get my head together.

It gets better down the road. Don't be hasty at trying to fix things. I was last year and have some regrets.

This year like last year I have told her everything is hanging on what she does to fix things. 

Divorce or reconcile? I don't know. At the present I have prepared to divorce her but I willing to try R again.


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## calif_hope

TallJohn

Sex only twice in 12 years due to her bad back and menopause....sorry considering she has had a **** buddy for the last 3 years. Looks like she has been giving you the "sorry honey I have a head ache" while she healthy enough to spread them for someone else. 

Tall, have to wonder if their wasn't someone else or more in the prior 9 or more years; my opinion your marital story of 37 years may include more people than you know about.

Take care of yourself, sleep, exercise, drink water (stay off the booze)...stay strong!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

Tall,

Your initial reaction was you gut telling you the right thing to do - to leave her. Your marriage has been over for years, you just didn't know it. She was staying around to keep the roof over her head, you taking care of things, and paying the bills.

If you go back her cheating probably started longer ago - say back at menopause when she suddenly "lost" her sex drive? It was in reality another man. She chose him for sex, and you for a roof over her head.

You discovered she was fully able to lie to you for years and years while living with you. When discovered she stayed true to her ways and continued to lie to your face.

It's not an obsession she has - IT IS A CHOICE SHE IS MAKING. She chooses to lie to you. She chooses to lie to you so she can contact him and have sex with him.

Is that the act of someone that has either respect or love for you?

Is someone who will lie like that, as person you want to waste any more of you life on? Serious 57 is a great age for living life. Why waste anytime with someone who obviously cares so little about you.

She obviously has a very healthy sex drive. Yet, for 12 years you've been told she has none.

You say you had a pretty wild sex life - I suspect all those years ago she met someone, and decided to stop being with you, but to keep living under the same roof.

Perhaps the OM is married?

So what to do now?

1. Find the OM. 

He is very likely married, and that this why your wife has used you to provide a home.

2. Find the OMW and tell her about his cheating. She deserves to know. This will hurt the affair, but it also informs her about the truth and lets her make honest decisions.

3. See lawyer and get divorce papers drawn up. Even if you don't end up filing them, show your wife that you are very seriously looking at that option.

4. Have your wife take a polygraph test and answer questions about the past and present.

5. Decide after you know the truth from if you can still even be in the same room as her.

Frankly, her actions are so hurtful, and so awful - I don't see how anything but divorce


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## JustWaiting

Hang in there and take things slow. It does feel like the world has come crashing down. She's like an addict who's been getting a fix right now, so there will be lies and setbacks. Drive down the street and think about the statistics. If there is infidelity in 50% of relationships, How many houses do you pass where couples have survived this? I write to say there is hope. It is not easy. There is no silver bullet. If your wife is committed and you are committed, you should not rush out and file for divorce. Read the books you see recommended on this site such as The Monogamy Myth. But remember you are doing that for yourself. You can be there for her, but you can't fix her. You can fix yourself. Expect all the symptoms of PTSD. It's just like you've been robbed and raped. But it gets better. There needs to be a "we" for there to be a new start. Was your wife disconnected because there was no "we"? None of the things you do or say or buy will make any difference until she can look at the marriage as "we" .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem

TallJohn1953 said:


> Again to try and shorten things up, I have since discovered via tracking software I placed on her computer that *she has lied to me all through this supposed reconciliation*. I now know that the affair lasted for almost *three years*, their were *numerous meetings and that she was still contacting him*. It has just been a series of lies and deception on a daily basis. Every time I think I finally know the whole story, something else comes up. She says it's an obsession and she can't control it.


Ok, so you TALKED it out. You gave her no consequences. Basically, you swept this under the rug. Since she received no consquences for her actions, she did what all cheaters do in this situation: She took the affair underground. And it lasted a whole 3 years? This is a LONG TERM AFFAIR (LTA), the most damaging affair of them all. She has deep feelings for this OM, and will likely remain in her heart forever, whether you reconcile or not.

So what did she do with the precious gift of R? She stomped on it. 



TallJohn1953 said:


> Also that she still loves me and does not want to end our marriage. I'm so confused, I just don't know where to turn, or what to do or say anymore.


Of course she doesn't want to end the marriage. She's a cake eater. She wants the security of marriage and the freedom to f#ck her OM. You've been living in an open marriage and not realizing it. There's no room for 3 in a marriage, unless you're into that sort of thing.



TallJohn1953 said:


> Here's the real crux of the situation. While there is much more deceit and lying to this story, I still REALLY REALLY love my wife!!! I know that may sound weird at this point but it's the truth and I can't seem to let go.


Over the years, you have become so co-dependent. You have to learn to start to detach. Follow the advice on the 180 now!



TallJohn1953 said:


> I would like to find a way to fight for her and resolve things.


You have it backwards. She betrayed the marriage, destroyed your trust in her, f#cked an OM behind your back for another 3 years, lied to your face. It is SHE who should be fighting for you, not the other way around! You cannot make her love you. She should be on her hands and knees begging you to take her back and make it work. If it's been the opposite, then you have major problems. She sees you as a doormat and has no respect for you. She knows that she can do whatever she pleases and all she has to do is wait out your anger. Then she will resume her affairs because she knows you will just sweep this under the rug as you have done in the past.



TallJohn1953 said:


> She has agreed to counseling but I have absolutely no faith and/or trust in what she says anymore.


Is that all she's agreed to? MC is useless until the affair is over and she is committed 100% to you and the marriage. Anything less is a waste of time. What has she done to be remorseful? What has she done to be transparent? Has she willingly done any of this?

If not, then you're in for more FALSE R. Personally, if it was my WW in a LTA like that, I would divorce her. She's now too damaged for R.


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## Shaggy

TallJohn1953 said:


> . She has agreed to counseling but I have absolutely no faith and/or trust in what she says anymore.


Counseling doesn't end affairs. It doesn't change a persons mind. All it does is teach couples how to talk to one another and work through conflict.

She is still in the affair 100%. Counseling won't stop this, or her choosing to lie to you.

Her goal isn't to end the affair. Her goal is to return to the time when you didn't know, and she could use you for a roof, while having her lover. 

This is very different from what you want, which is for the lover to vanish and her to return being faithful and honest.

This is why counseling while the person is still deep in the affair doesn't work. 

So save your money and time until the affair is truly dead and she no longer desires it.



TallJohn1953 said:


> All I do know is that I still love her & I'm not sure I could survive without her.


You absolutely can and will. You've already survived for years with only part of another human in your life. You will survive quite well after that remaining part is gone.



TallJohn1953 said:


> I do believe her relationship with this guy is sexual only.


Unfortunately it's not. It also a relationship that she has made a priority over yours. It's a relationship that - even when you discovered it and are feeling like you've lost your world - that she continues to turn to, indifferent to your hurt or feelings.

Sex cheating is about sex, but it's also about trust and respect. You wife doesn't respect you. She sees a man that she has been able to lie to for yes. In the her eyes that makes you a weak man.

Her lover is more important than her relationship with you. If it wasn't the guilt would have eaten away at her years ago. 

Right now she has no remorse, only frustration that she got caught and might loose her nice home and the guy who took care of it for her.

And she continues to turn to him. Does that seem like it's only sex? Sex is something that takes are few minutes and your done. She's got a relationship with this guy, and she is continuing to turn to it even though it causes you deep pain.

Does that seem like only sex?


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## Shaggy

One more thing Tall, please don't think the advice you are reading here is just from some angry biter betrayed people, because it's not.

The advice your reading here is from people who've been through it, and from people who've seen many people's story just like yours. 

The advice you're getting is also from people who have had the chance to look back, with emotions less raw, and to see where the truth lay, and where the lies led.


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## posibiltypusher

John,

I know it's painful and your ego (manhood) is hurt, but ask yourself why are you the one feeling all the pain. I honestly believe that your wife really does love you. Love making and intimacy is very important in a marriage/relationship. I know you have back trouble and yes menopause can bring on its on difficulties, but when you are not having the sex you must find a way to maintain your intimacy with each other. Otherwise you start feeling and acting like roommates and or relatives. Intimacy is the binding force that sustains the closeness when the sexual part is not available.

People are so quick to just give up and make decisions according to their hurt and pain. John I realize most people might not agree with me, but you did violate your wife trust and privacy when you viewed her personal email. What were you looking for? Did you already have some suspicions? Then you mention you checked the tracking software after you both agreed to stay together. John you have to choose to trust even after trust has been broken. 

John I'm saying take responsibility for your part in this as well. I'm not saying what your wife did or is doing is right, but again have you tried to understand why she feels she has a need for these things? It may hurt you to understand, but if you truly love your wife and want to save your marriage and I feel like you honestly do then ask her to open up to you and be totally honest. Explain to her you are not trying to judge nor condemn her, but you are honestly trying to understand her needs so that you can give her what she needs again. * John when you talk to her provide a warm and passionate environment where she can feel secure to open up to you totally.

Let her know that you do not trust her anymore and what you found from the tracking software. Then apologize for spying on her. Let her know that was wrong of you and you will never do it again. Ask her if she feels that what she is getting from cyber man; she can get from you. While watching her videos in her personal email did you learn anything? Ask her if she would like the two of you to make your own video? Do you still kiss her with passion, do you hold her hand, do you read or write her love poems & thoughts. Do you make her feel beautiful and desired? John loving your wife is so much more than the 4 little letters.

As a woman I encourage you not to punish her by taking away things. That's trying to control her and make her do and act the way you want her to and then you have taken away her own identy. John ask God to allow you to see your wife as he does (pure love) when you ask be prepared to accept what will be shown. Dont try to change your wife. Change yourself ask God for his guidance and I belive you wife will fall back in love with the new man in Christ. Your wife will follow you as she see you follow Christ.

I'm believing in the possibilities of you!


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## Shaggy

posibiltypusher said:


> John,
> 
> I know it's painful and your ego (manhood) is hurt, but ask yourself why are you the one feeling all the pain. I honestly believe that your wife really does love you. Love making and intimacy is very important in a marriage/relationship. I know you have back trouble and yes menopause can bring on its on difficulties, but when you are not having the sex you must find a way to maintain your intimacy with each other. Otherwise you start feeling and acting like roommates and or relatives. Intimacy is the binding force that sustains the closeness when the sexual part is not available.
> 
> People are so quick to just give up and make decisions according to their hurt and pain. John I realize most people might not agree with me, but you did violate your wife trust and privacy when you viewed her personal email. What were you looking for? Did you already have some suspicions? Then you mention you checked the tracking software after you both agreed to stay together. John you have to choose to trust even after trust has been broken.
> 
> John I'm saying take responsibility for your part in this as well. I'm not saying what your wife did or is doing is right, but again have you tried to understand why she feels she has a need for these things? It may hurt you to understand, but if you truly love your wife and want to save your marriage and I feel like you honestly do then ask her to open up to you and be totally honest. Explain to her you are not trying to judge nor condemn her, but you are honestly trying to understand her needs so that you can give her what she needs again. * John when you talk to her provide a warm and passionate environment where she can feel secure to open up to you totally.
> 
> Let her know that you do not trust her anymore and what you found from the tracking software. Then apologize for spying on her. Let her know that was wrong of you and you will never do it again. Ask her if she feels that what she is getting from cyber man; she can get from you. While watching her videos in her personal email did you learn anything? Ask her if she would like the two of you to make your own video? Do you still kiss her with passion, do you hold her hand, do you read or write her love poems & thoughts. Do you make her feel beautiful and desired? John loving your wife is so much more than the 4 little letters.
> 
> As a woman I encourage you not to punish her by taking away things. That's trying to control her and make her do and act the way you want her to and then you have taken away her own identy. John ask God to allow you to see your wife as he does (pure love) when you ask be prepared to accept what will be shown. Dont try to change your wife. Change yourself ask God for his guidance and I belive you wife will fall back in love with the new man in Christ. Your wife will follow you as she see you follow Christ.
> 
> I'm believing in the possibilities of you!



Wow, that is some awful advice! :rofl:

So he is supposed to take away his one means of knowing that she is still in the affair and lying - AND - he is supposed to appologize for snooping and promise never to do it again?

Should he also buy her a new car and condo so she can meet her lover and have a nice ride to get over there?

This advice will only result in her running right back to her affair and it never ending. It will also turn the betrayed spouse into a passive rug sweeping doormat.


Wow.


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## lordmayhem

posibiltypusher said:


> John,
> 
> I know it's painful and your ego (manhood) is hurt, but ask yourself why are you the one feeling all the pain. I honestly believe that your wife really does love you. Love making and intimacy is very important in a marriage/relationship. I know you have back trouble and yes menopause can bring on its on difficulties, but when you are not having the sex you must find a way to maintain your intimacy with each other. Otherwise you start feeling and acting like roommates and or relatives. Intimacy is the binding force that sustains the closeness when the sexual part is not available.
> 
> People are so quick to just give up and make decisions according to their hurt and pain. *John I realize most people might not agree with me, but you did violate your wife trust and privacy when you viewed her personal email*. What were you looking for? Did you already have some suspicions? Then you mention you checked the tracking software after you both agreed to stay together. John you have to choose to trust even after trust has been broken.
> 
> John I'm saying *take responsibility for your part in this as well*. I'm not saying what your wife did or is doing is right, but again have you tried to understand why she feels she has a need for these things? It may hurt you to understand, but if you truly love your wife and want to save your marriage and I feel like you honestly do then ask her to open up to you and be totally honest. Explain to her you are not trying to judge nor condemn her, but you are honestly trying to understand her needs so that you can give her what she needs again. * John when you talk to her provide a warm and passionate environment where she can feel secure to open up to you totally.
> 
> Let her know that you do not trust her anymore and what you found from the tracking software. *Then apologize for spying on her.* Let her know that was wrong of you and you will never do it again. Ask her if she feels that what she is getting from cyber man; she can get from you. While watching her videos in her personal email did you learn anything? Ask her if she would like the two of you to make your own video? Do you still kiss her with passion, do you hold her hand, do you read or write her love poems & thoughts. Do you make her feel beautiful and desired? John loving your wife is so much more than the 4 little letters.
> 
> As a woman I encourage you not to punish her by taking away things. *That's trying to control her and make her do and act the way you want her to and then you have taken away her own identy*. John ask God to allow you to see your wife as he does (pure love) when you ask be prepared to accept what will be shown. Dont try to change your wife. Change yourself ask God for his guidance and I belive you wife will fall back in love with the new man in Christ. Your wife will follow you as she see you follow Christ.
> 
> I'm believing in the possibilities of you!


Either you are a cheater yourself, since you played the controlling card, or you have no freaking idea about infidelity. You say you're a woman, well I'll be the other women here in the forum have a lot to say about that.

What you preach is nothing but enabling behavior. He has every right to investigate and monitor his WW. It was she who broke the trust and destroyed the marriage. She should be the one fighting to save the marriage. 

Betrayed Spouse Bill of Rights « betrayed but recovering

What you advise is rewarding her for her bad behavior. Sweeping it under the rug.


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## DoormatNoMore53

Thanks for the advice and for posting back so soon. I can't say anything else right now I'm just crushed! I know you're probably (no absolutely) right. I just have to get my **** together. HOW COULD I BE SUCH AN *******!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't know if I can take this hurt, it's killing me. Thanks again, I'll be back, gotta take a drive and think things out!


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## warlock07

One poster undid what all others posted *facepalm*


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## Shaggy

TallJohn1953 said:


> Thanks for the advice and for posting back so soon. I can't say anything else right now I'm just crushed! I know you're probably (no absolutely) right. I just have to get my **** together. HOW COULD I BE SUCH AN *******!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't know if I can take this hurt, it's killing me. Thanks again, I'll be back, gotta take a drive and think things out!


Tall, stay away from booze during this time.

Another thing: You don't leave the house - she does. if there ever is an R - she has to earn her way back in.


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## DoormatNoMore53

posibiltypusher said:


> John,
> 
> I know it's painful and your ego (manhood) is hurt, but ask yourself why are you the one feeling all the pain. I honestly believe that your wife really does love you. Love making and intimacy is very important in a marriage/relationship. I know you have back trouble and yes menopause can bring on its on difficulties, but when you are not having the sex you must find a way to maintain your intimacy with each other. Otherwise you start feeling and acting like roommates and or relatives. Intimacy is the binding force that sustains the closeness when the sexual part is not available.
> 
> People are so quick to just give up and make decisions according to their hurt and pain. John I realize most people might not agree with me, but you did violate your wife trust and privacy when you viewed her personal email. What were you looking for? Did you already have some suspicions? Then you mention you checked the tracking software after you both agreed to stay together. John you have to choose to trust even after trust has been broken.
> 
> John I'm saying take responsibility for your part in this as well. I'm not saying what your wife did or is doing is right, but again have you tried to understand why she feels she has a need for these things? It may hurt you to understand, but if you truly love your wife and want to save your marriage and I feel like you honestly do then ask her to open up to you and be totally honest. Explain to her you are not trying to judge nor condemn her, but you are honestly trying to understand her needs so that you can give her what she needs again. * John when you talk to her provide a warm and passionate environment where she can feel secure to open up to you totally.
> 
> Let her know that you do not trust her anymore and what you found from the tracking software. Then apologize for spying on her. Let her know that was wrong of you and you will never do it again. Ask her if she feels that what she is getting from cyber man; she can get from you. While watching her videos in her personal email did you learn anything? Ask her if she would like the two of you to make your own video? Do you still kiss her with passion, do you hold her hand, do you read or write her love poems & thoughts. Do you make her feel beautiful and desired? John loving your wife is so much more than the 4 little letters.
> 
> As a woman I encourage you not to punish her by taking away things. That's trying to control her and make her do and act the way you want her to and then you have taken away her own identy. John ask God to allow you to see your wife as he does (pure love) when you ask be prepared to accept what will be shown. Dont try to change your wife. Change yourself ask God for his guidance and I belive you wife will fall back in love with the new man in Christ. Your wife will follow you as she see you follow Christ.
> 
> I'm believing in the possibilities of you!


Are you freaking serious!? THIS WAS NOT MY FREAKING FAULT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I did not want to lose a 7 Mill biz due to a back condition!!!! I did NOT have a three year affair!!!!! Yes I spied on her, but ONLY after she lied 15 times AFTER I found out about the damn thing!!!!! I AM NOT THE BAD GUY HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You've got a lot of nerve lady. Are you a cheater too!? Sounds like it to me. Good God, what the hell did I do wrong here!? You say you're trying to help me. You just made me feel 1000% worse!!!!!!!!! Thanks loads!


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## Eli-Zor

TallJohn1953 said:


> Thanks for the advice and for posting back so soon. I can't say anything else right now I'm just crushed! I know you're probably (no absolutely) right. I just have to get my **** together. HOW COULD I BE SUCH AN *******!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't know if I can take this hurt, it's killing me. Thanks again, I'll be back, gotta take a drive and think things out!


Keep control of yourself , go see a doctor for some help. What you are going through is what most BS go through. You are going to have to get control of yourself and don't run away from the problem, your wife will look at you as needy and desperate . She will see the OM as dangerious and attractive the opposite of you. The sooner you get a grip on yourself , run the 180 the sooner you can deal with this and work to a plan .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Tall : hang in there , give yourself a bit of a breather then read our posts again . Create a plan along the lines we proposed . There is a book "surviving an affair" by Harley that will help you understand your position and help give input .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

posibiltypusher said:


> John,
> 
> I know it's painful and your ego (manhood) is hurt, but ask yourself why are you the one feeling all the pain. I honestly believe that your wife really does love you. Love making and intimacy is very important in a marriage/relationship. I know you have back trouble and yes menopause can bring on its on difficulties, but when you are not having the sex you must find a way to maintain your intimacy with each other. Otherwise you start feeling and acting like roommates and or relatives. Intimacy is the binding force that sustains the closeness when the sexual part is not available.
> 
> People are so quick to just give up and make decisions according to their hurt and pain. John I realize most people might not agree with me, but you did violate your wife trust and privacy when you viewed her personal email. What were you looking for? Did you already have some suspicions? Then you mention you checked the tracking software after you both agreed to stay together. John you have to choose to trust even after trust has been broken.
> 
> John I'm saying take responsibility for your part in this as well. I'm not saying what your wife did or is doing is right, but again have you tried to understand why she feels she has a need for these things? It may hurt you to understand, but if you truly love your wife and want to save your marriage and I feel like you honestly do then ask her to open up to you and be totally honest. Explain to her you are not trying to judge nor condemn her, but you are honestly trying to understand her needs so that you can give her what she needs again. * John when you talk to her provide a warm and passionate environment where she can feel secure to open up to you totally.
> 
> Let her know that you do not trust her anymore and what you found from the tracking software. Then apologize for spying on her. Let her know that was wrong of you and you will never do it again. Ask her if she feels that what she is getting from cyber man; she can get from you. While watching her videos in her personal email did you learn anything? Ask her if she would like the two of you to make your own video? Do you still kiss her with passion, do you hold her hand, do you read or write her love poems & thoughts. Do you make her feel beautiful and desired? John loving your wife is so much more than the 4 little letters.
> 
> As a woman I encourage you not to punish her by taking away things. That's trying to control her and make her do and act the way you want her to and then you have taken away her own identy. John ask God to allow you to see your wife as he does (pure love) when you ask be prepared to accept what will be shown. Dont try to change your wife. Change yourself ask God for his guidance and I belive you wife will fall back in love with the new man in Christ. Your wife will follow you as she see you follow Christ.
> 
> I'm believing in the possibilities of you!



Please step away from this thread .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DoormatNoMore53

Eli-Zor said:


> Keep control of yourself , go see a doctor for some help. What you are going through is what most BS go through. You are going to have to get control of yourself and don't run away from the problem, your wife will look at you as needy and desperate . She will see the OM as dangerious and attractive the opposite of you. The sooner you get a grip on yourself , run the 180 the sooner you can deal with this and work to a plan .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks Eli-Zor! Finally a ray of hope. Your right I shouldn't run away. I wasn't gonna do that. Just take a drive cause I think better and it clears my head. NO freaking way an I EVER leaving again. If anyone leaves SHE is! But I'm just trying to keep a level head right now. Funny thing is, due to the disability, there really aren't manv assets, so I'm not worried about that. I've already called my lawyer who is a very close friend, just to get a head start on things if it goes that way. At least I know more now, I guess that's something. Just wish that other poster hadn't done what she did. I already have felt too long that I had some culpability in this.


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## Shaggy

Tall,

One of most effective things you can do is to find the OM, and bring some of the fun into his life. 

don't confront him - ever - complete waste of time. 

But do find his wife and tell her.


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## Eli-Zor

You have a tough road ahead of you.

Do you know who the OM is ? is he married , has family children etc.

You need as much information on the OM , key is to make the affair unpleasant so you can focus on your choices with your wife. Read the 180 and start running it , move the monies , gather and secure your evidence . Do not tell your wife what you are doing .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Get yourself a couple of VAR's , one for her car or a place where you think she is secure to make calls to the OM and one to carry with you especialy when talking to her. Waywards try all sorts of dishonest tricks and often make up claims of abuse , cover yourself.

I read you have a keylogger loaded , keep it there or upgrade it to a better one you want to know of all their communications and plans .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aug

Since the latest is a subsequent exposure your pain will lessen a little in due time as it did the first discovery.

As you should realize by now, your wife is not telling you the truth. Your better position to take is to assume everything she says is a lie till you have independent verification. This includes any of her attempt to minimize or reconciliation.

She's too long into her affair to really care about you. She currently has the fallback of another man. And if you really think about it, she does not need you.

Dont further confront her till you are prepared. That includes hiding and securing any assets you have so she cant touch them. Slowly remove her from any joint bank accounts, credit cards, etc.

Read about "letting her go" and the 180.

Note that the 180 is for you only and for your mental health and strength as you continue to encounter emotional and family turmoil.

Your wife is unethical, she's a cheater and a liar. Once you are able to see and truly comprehend that, you'll start detaching. Unless, of course, you like that type of a wife. But, from what you have written, I dont think so. So read the 2 links above, start preparing yourself and start detaching.


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## morituri

John my heart goes out to you because I also found out a video of my ex-wife engaging in sex with her OM (Other Man). The difference was that our sex life was full and she was a very loving wife towards me during the entire time she carried on with POSOM (Piece Of Sh!t Other Man). So you see, it doesn't matter how the sex life is at home, if the cheating wife/husband is a broken person, you could be the greatest lover in the world giving her/him multiple mind blowing orgasms, and they will still cheat.

Know that you are not alone and that *you are not less of a man because of your wife's betrayal - actually she is less of a woman for it.*

Lastly, if you want to prevent future comments from members like posibiltypusher View Post, go to the top of the page and click on 'User CP' under 'Control Panel' and 'Settings and Options', click on 'Ignore List' and put the name of the member you want to ignore and then click 'Okay'. It should then prevent that member from commenting to your thread or contacting you.


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## calif_hope

Quote From PosibilityPusher: Let her know that you do not trust her anymore and what you found from the tracking software. Then apologize for spying on her. Let her know that was wrong of you and you will never do it again......

WRONG, HORRIBLE ADVICE!!!!! You did no wrong in confirming your fears....you didn't violate her privacy - you exposed her lies. Don't disclose or give up your sources and your tools - if you do you lose you ability to "trust but verify". - if you expose your methods all that your WW has to do is, if she desires, is to go deeper and change her communication methods.

She is a proven lier, and a cheat, who thinks nothing of crushing your heart, if you want to reconcile, great I wish you luck but do so with your eyes and ears wide open and your heart protected - 
and remember she has to do the lion share of the heavylifting and work in your relationship....

My first thought was that PosibilityPusher was you WW.....I am certain she is a WW or FWW!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustaJerk

After gaslighting you in the aftermath of the first discovery, you can't in NO WAY take her word on ANYTHING anymore. 

Oh... and its called "[email protected]#$ buddies," and the younger generation uses this often to denote _friends with benefits_. By using this term, it seems your wife is in some kind of mid-life crisis, and is probably using these encounters to feel young again. At least that's how I'm seeing it.


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## DoormatNoMore53

Hello again!

First and foremost, A *BIG* Thank You to the following: Shaggy, Eli-Zor and most of all *morituri* ! You have ALL opened my eyes and given me reason to hope (not for her, but for myself and my own well being). Again *thank you!*

I am sorry for the long delay in getting back to this thread. However, let me assure you that the delay was time well spent! I took my little drive (about an hour) only because I tend to think better for some reason in the car (always did. It comes from being an independent rep covering 7 states for over 20 years lol). I then came back and started to read all of the suggested links including the "180", "letting her go", "man up" etc... Took a loooong time to read, re-read, digest & print what I wanted to keep for reference while offline. I have to say that I'm so thankful for the information. I didn't believe, for whatever reason, that there were others in my situation. The "180" is a God Send and will be my Bible as I traverse this situation going forward.

I must say that I am in a much better place then when I first posted. While I'm still hurt and dealing with WW, I now know that I'm not the problem, but rather the victim. I have already begun to formulate a game plan on how I'm going to handle this. That game plan will NOW be about ME and MY future well being! I now realize that I can't (and don't want to) change or control what has happened, AND that it is NOT up to me to try and reconcile ANYTHING. Additionally, I now know and understand that the only way an R could EVER happen is if it is initiated & truthfully wanted by WW. Even then, it will be my decision to accept or reject it.

My plan now is to remain calm and implement my game plan which is to very slowly, & stealthily gather additional evidence, change personal info like bank accts & other assets & keep reading my new Bible (the 180). In addition, I have already gathered loads of info on the OM including phone #'s, addresses, AW's name and so forth. I now even have info on locations where the meetings took place. All of this info I will use VERY carefully and with calmness and by thinking intelligently. BTW, All of this is being stored in a safe secure location & WW knows nothing about it. I have over 20 years exp in running my own business, It's time I used that knowledge again to be smart in what I know now I must do. The only thing I'm going to move very quickly on is contacting the AW as I feel she deserves to know what a p.o.s. the OM is, also to KILL WW's affair once and for all. Even in doing this though I will remain calm, collective & most of all decisive.

While I'm now resolute in what I have to do, there are a few other things that I need advice on. Someone had mentioned using "a couple of VAR's". I don't want to sound like an idiot but what are these and how are they used?

Also, I think I mentioned that there were pics and vids involved in this. I am VERY concerned that there are faces in these. My biggest concern is that they wind up on the Internet. While that would be embarrassing for me, I am really concerned about my kids & grand kids one day finding them floating around online. I have contacted my lawyer friend and unfortunately he told me that I don't have much recourse because I'm not in them and WW was a willing participant. My question is, has anyone else had experience with this and could they give me any advice as to how to try and either recover the materials (I know I my be dreaming here), or at least scare the OM into thinking about posting them if he hasn't already?

OK, that's it for now. Sorry for the long post again. I promise future ones will be shorter & more concise. 

Thanks again to everyone :smthumbup:


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## Sindo

VAR = voice activated recorder

Good luck.


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## ZeekZealand

My advice is after 37 years of marriage and sex twice over 12 years; leave, completely cut her off, and wait. She is wrong for doing what she did and the lies come with the territory, I don't think it defines her entire character. Give her another chance, but do it on your terms. 

Get away and think, and wait to see what happens. I left shortly after it happen to me. I was so sad to be alone and with out her but I have pushed through it and it has made me have so much more perspective.

Tell her you're leaving and will come back when the lies and affair are over, and she can prove it. Don't contact her again. If she loves you she will realize she can't have it both ways and come back to you. If she doesn't there's absolutely nothing you can do, I assure you.


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## lordmayhem

TallJohn1953 said:


> While I'm now resolute in what I have to do, there are a few other things that I need advice on. Someone had mentioned using "a couple of VAR's". I don't want to sound like an idiot but what are these and how are they used?












A common place to put them is using industrial strength velcro under the driver's seat in the vehicle, master bathroom, bedroom, or where ever you think that your WW is chatting with the OM. Use rechargeable batteries when you can. Here are some examples. Of course you get what you pay for, and the more expensive models may be to your liking/preference.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Philips+-+Voice+Tracer+Digital+Voice+Recorder/2596305.p?id=1218338417967&skuId=2596305

Walmart.com: Sony ICD-BX8112 Digital Flash Voice Recorder: iPods & MP3 Players


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## Almostrecovered

I have this weird feeling that TJ left his browser history up and his wife found it and posted as possibilitypusher


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## lordmayhem

Almostrecovered said:


> I have this weird feeling that TJ left his browser history up and his wife found it and posted as possibilitypusher


Had the exact same feeling. Almost the same thing happened with that other member.


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## morituri

TallJohn1953 said:


> I must say that I am in a much better place then when I first posted. While I'm still hurt and dealing with WW, I now know that I'm not the problem, but rather the victim. I have already begun to formulate a game plan on how I'm going to handle this. That game plan will NOW be about ME and MY future well being! I now realize that I can't (and don't want to) change or control what has happened, AND that it is NOT up to me to try and reconcile ANYTHING. Additionally, I now know and understand that the only way an R could EVER happen is if it is initiated & truthfully wanted by WW. Even then, it will be my decision to accept or reject


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

You are on the correct path with that mindset. I would suggest that you print out this paragraph of yours and read it as many times as needed, every day because it will keep you focused on what you need to do and will not allow your emotions to sabotage any efforts to move forward with your life.

It's great to see that you are doing much better and that you have read the 180 and will implement it. Remember, the 180 is not a manipulation tool to get your wife to stop her affair and commit to doing the hard work of marital R (Recovery), it is an emotional empowerment tool to help you to become stronger so that you will be able to move on with your life with or without your cheating wife.



TallJohn1953 said:


> Also, I think I mentioned that there were pics and vids involved in this. I am VERY concerned that there are faces in these. My biggest concern is that they wind up on the Internet. While that would be embarrassing for me, I am really concerned about my kids & grand kids one day finding them floating around online. I have contacted my lawyer friend and unfortunately he told me that I don't have much recourse because I'm not in them and WW was a willing participant. My question is, has anyone else had experience with this and could they give me any advice as to how to try and either recover the materials (I know I my be dreaming here), or at least scare the OM into thinking about posting them if he hasn't already?


There's no doubt that you are a good man for even in the face of the worst pain a human being could possibly endure, your concern is towards others, your kids and grandkids.

I understand your concern for your children and grandchildren but please, it is a job that your WW (DW - Disloyal Wife) and the OM are solely responsible for since they were the ones who posted it in the first place. If there is any fallout, both of them will have to pay the consequences which may include permanent banishment by their family members - which would serve them right for acting like a pair of third rate porn actors.

Lastly, I am 53 years old - also a grandfather - and I'm involved in a committed relationship with a wonderful woman. I tell you this because I don't want you to fall into the false belief that just because you are 58 that it is impossible for you become involved in a committed relationship. If you strive to become the best man you can possibly be, there will be plenty of good and kind women out there dying to be your loving and faithful companion. Read and implement the principles in books such as 'No More Mr Nice Guy' - click on the link below my tag line to download and print a free copy of this ebook - which will help you to achieve this goal.


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## Eli-Zor

Thanks for coming back, sometimes the BS is in denial and does not take steps to protect themselves . As far as the pics,I suspect these will be on their phones or computers or within their mail account.

Once you and the OW 's wife are in contact you will together be able to keep track on both sides . A flag for you, often the spouse of the other wayward does not want to believe the affair , share some evidence not all and do not disclose where or how you obtained it. If she is not proactive in dealing with the OM expose this to his adult children , friends , siblings etc . Assuming she is proactive then she should deal with him without your further involvement other than sharing intel.

Try hit the exposure on the OM and your side at the same time , technique is to cause them to flounder without support of family and friends , in your wife's case be prepared for her to walk out , if so have her card details handy to cancel and empty the account. The OM's wife should be aware her husband may walk out as well and would be paying for your wife if she does not do a similar financial lockdown.

Look at your options carefully and decide how hard you want to be on the day you force the issue to a head , remember waywards are professional at lying and deception. Your wife has been in a lengthily affair so it is very likely they have discussed the possibility of a D day (confrontation day ) and will have a semblance of a plan including the possibility of having monies hidden in other accounts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

Tall,

How can you take her back at this point?

There's 12 years where she cut you off, but clearly is a sexual person.

There's video of her willingly with the OM.

There's years of her lies and deceit.

Are you trying to save things because you think that once exposed she will return to being the wife you thought you have had for the last 12 years?

Realize that wife was a lie and didn't exist. All you had was part of woman, and that part clearly thought of you with contempt and no-respect, and no love.

Are you trying to R because you fear being alone? You've already been mostly alone for the last 12 years, because you haven't had a real partner there loving you for that time. You've had a roommate who you shared a house with.

You're still young enough that if you get her out, you'll find there a lots of great women available who will love you, and actually be with you - not just sharing a house.

I'm glad you're prepared to nuke the OM's happy life, after this long he deserves every bit of "love" you can share with him.


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## DoormatNoMore53

ZeekZealand said:


> My advice is after 37 years of marriage and sex twice over 12 years; leave, completely cut her off, and wait. She is wrong for doing what she did and the lies come with the territory, I don't think it defines her entire character. Give her another chance, but do it on your terms.
> 
> Get away and think, and wait to see what happens. I left shortly after it happen to me. I was so sad to be alone and with out her but I have pushed through it and it has made me have so much more perspective.
> 
> Tell her you're leaving and will come back when the lies and affair are over, and she can prove it. Don't contact her again. If she loves you she will realize she can't have it both ways and come back to you. If she doesn't there's absolutely nothing you can do, I assure you.


Thanks for the post but sorry I have to disagree with you, (today that is - yesterday, I may have agreed). I will NOT ever leave again! If anyone leaves it will be her. Yes we share (shared) our home. But she lost the right to stay in it when she decided to cheat & lie for three years, especially while I was recovering from back-to-back surgeries. No, I will never leave again - This is MY HOUSE!


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## DoormatNoMore53

Shaggy said:


> Tall,
> 
> How can you take her back at this point?
> 
> There's 12 years where she cut you off, but clearly is a sexual person.
> 
> There's video of her willingly with the OM.
> 
> There's years of her lies and deceit.
> 
> Are you trying to save things because you think that once exposed she will return to being the wife you thought you have had for the last 12 years?
> 
> Realize that wife was a lie and didn't exist. All you had was part of woman, and that part clearly thought of you with contempt and no-respect, and no love.
> 
> Are you trying to R because you fear being alone? You've already been mostly alone for the last 12 years, because you haven't had a real partner there loving you for that time. You've had a roommate who you shared a house with.
> 
> You're still young enough that if you get her out, you'll find there a lots of great women available who will love you, and actually be with you - not just sharing a house.
> 
> I'm glad you're prepared to nuke the OM's happy life, after this long he deserves every bit of "love" you can share with him.


Shaggy,
Please don't take this the wrong way, but I think you read my post wrong. (BTW, Doesn't surprise me as it was so long a rambling lol) I never said that I would R. I did say that if there was ever a chance to R, it would have to be initiated by WW and I would decide to agree or not. At this point I'm not even considering that. I'm trying to follow the 180 and be calm & intelligent about setting things up without tipping her off.


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## DoormatNoMore53

morituri,
Once again your advice is straight to the point and right on the head. You are my voice of reason & I am very thankful for you & for that. :smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup: Consider this a virtual high five. Maybe someday I will be able to give you a real one 

Eli-Zor
Thank you for the great advice. I've already set some of this in motion. I sent the OM an email detailing _"Only Some"_ of my knowledge of the affair, (I don't want to over play my hand and give away too much at this point). But I got my point across. I also demanded the offensive material be returned, really knowing he wouldn't and it would scare him into deleting it all. Well, with-in 20 mins of my email to him, he not only responded back to me saying that he HAD deleted all the content, along with the account and a copy of a message from his ISP detailing to him that the content would be shred deleted with-in 48 hrs. Now here come the great part. He sent an email to WW with a time stamp 2 mins after the one he sent to me stating the following:

_"I know you are under a great deal of stress. So am I and neither of us can say that it isn't our fault. It's time to repair burned bridges at home and get on with our lives. **** needs you and **** needs me. She is working extremely hard on her recovery and I need to be there for her, my daughter, the rest of my family, and friends *so this is goodbye*. We supported one another when we really needed it but it's time to move on. Thanks for sticking by me through all the pain I suffered because of addiction. I'll never forget it."_

He was obviously scared sh!tless & is trying to cut his losses. Little does he know what a rude awakening he's in for in the very near future! :rofl:

BTW, This line really gets me: *"and neither of us can say that it isn't our fault"* What a P.O.S. this guy is!

As for coming back, you're stuck with me dude I've found a home at talkaboutmarriage.com. :lol: Seriously, after I get through this, I hope to be a seasoned vet and maybe help others out a little going through it. Pay back if you will. Thanks again.


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## Shaggy

Ah, got it now. Stay strong and keep us updated as you play it out!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DoormatNoMore53

Thanks Shag. I will definitely do that.


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## lordmayhem

Got another Shamwow here people! :smthumbup:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/29971-wife-travels-lot-sex-life-has-stalled-worried-help.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/31388-go-time-time-go-sucks.html


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## DoormatNoMore53

lordmayhem,
Thanks for the info on Vars. Man am I having fun! I went to a site that specializes in surveillance devices. I'm like a kid in a candy store. Don't worry, I won't get stupid, but I can dream can't I? :lol:


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## lordmayhem

TallJohn1953 said:


> lordmayhem,
> Thanks for the info on Vars. Man am I having fun! I went to a site that specializes in surveillance devices. I'm like a kid in a candy store. Don't worry, I won't get stupid, but I can dream can't I? :lol:


Whatever it takes you to heal. :smthumbup:


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## sunshine93

lordmayhem said:


> A common place to put them is using industrial strength velcro under the driver's seat in the vehicle, master bathroom, bedroom, or where ever you think that your WW is chatting with the OM. Use rechargeable batteries when you can. Here are some examples. Of course you get what you pay for, and the more expensive models may be to your liking/preference.
> 
> http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Philips+-+Voice+Tracer+Digital+Voice+Recorder/2596305.p?id=1218338417967&skuId=2596305
> 
> Walmart.com: Sony ICD-BX8112 Digital Flash Voice Recorder: iPods & MP3 Players


Yep, this is exactly how I caught my husband! I called B&H warehouse and explained exactly what I was using it for and asked what the best options were for a VAR. The SA suggested that I also purchase an external Mic to pic up a better recording. My only problem was that when I searched in his car for a proper place to hide it, the spot I found was where the back seat lifted up. It was hidden but it was in the back; not the best place to get a quality recording. I only had tape with me.....I need to know where to find this industrial strength Velcro you speak of. I wanted to hide it under the dash on the driver's side but was too afraid of him hitting a pothole and it dropping out onto the floor! The car he drives to work is an old Celica, actually my old college car. It's very drafty and once my husband got onto the interstate I couldn't hear anything! Thankfully he called the little tramp as soon as he got into his car so while he was driving through our neighborhood I could hear it clearly. I haven't put it back in his car yet because I'm afraid he would be looking for something. I never told him HOW I caught him. Thursday night I'm putting it back in his car. Good luck to the OP, these things work......best $50 I ever spent! I really wish I had done it sooner. I spent 3 months of limbo hell! Thanks! April


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## lordmayhem

You can get some velcro at your local Wal Mart, Target, or other store. Usually in the automotive section I think. I saw some in the sewing section too.

Yes, NEVER reveal your sources, EVER!


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## Sindo

Almostrecovered said:


> I have this weird feeling that TJ left his browser history up and his wife found it and posted as possibilitypusher


Talljohn, you might want to keep this in mind. possibilitypusher's account only has one post, in this thread. If your wife has indeed seen this thread, she is going to be aware of any suggestions we made for surveillance.


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## DoormatNoMore53

Sindo,
Thanks but I'm positive the post was not form my wife. She hasn't left the house since my first post and I have tracking software on her computer & phone. The software would have picked up this site not only in a keylog but also in a screenshot and site listing. The software will even pick this up if she would have connected through a proxy so no, I'm 100% positive it wasn't her. Thanks for looking out for me though.

P.s. If any one is interested in what this software is, let me know. BTW, I don't have any connection with the company & I'm not trying to sell anything.


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## Shaggy

So when does the next round of sharing the love happen?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustaJerk

> She was telling me how sorry she was and how she wished that it had never happened etc.. etc..


Well of course she is... she got caught. If there was sincere remorse and/or regret, she would've come out and told you about it.:scratchhead:


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## DoormatNoMore53

OK Everyone,
Here's an update as of today 12-8 (4 days out from D day. BTW, still reading the 180 & Bill of Rights everyday).

1. I'm currently working with my lawyer drawing up disillusionment papers. (They have not been presented yet because I am still working on a few things, mostly monetary).

2. The affair has been stopped dead in it's tracks. There have been no more communications from, or to, either party since the email back to me from the OM, (see post above). I'm positive of this by the way because up until late this afternoon, neither she, or I have left the house. I still have all my tracking stuff in place, (computer & smart phone). There has been nothing new to report on that front.

3. I have made contact with the OMW via cell phone. However she was extremely drunk & I did not get to tell her much because I couldn't get a word in edgewise. I have an email address for her, but I do not know if it's current, so I haven't sent any communications via that route yet. I'm going to try and call her again earlier in the mourning this time to see if I can have a coherent convo with her. I'm not holding out much hope however, because the first call was at 11:00am! She must be a very bad alcoholic. If I can't find a way to convo with her, I know they have an adult daughter. I don't presently have any contact info on her, but I'm sure I can get it with a little more research.

4. Two nights ago WW & I had a long (6 hour) talk, (she did most of the talking, I maybe said 20 words the whole time.) I sat and just listened. She came completely clean with every detail, and let me tell you 80% of it was graphic (many tears by her, and about 5 boxes of tissues. NO yelling or screaming on either part whatsoever). About 4 hours into the convo, she started asking if I would be willing to R, or if I was just planning on leaving her. I did not give her an answer, not even a moan, grunt or any kind of facial expression, I just sat stoic and kept listening. The convo ended with her tearfully pleading for me to give her another chance, at which time I just stated, "We'll see what happens".

5. WW has left the building lol. I calmly asked her today if she thought a temporary separation would be a good idea. Her response to me was that _"if I needed to leave for a few days again, she would understand"_. I broke out laughing. I told her calmly that I wasn't going anywhere, but she was free to leave if she felt she needed the space. Her face turned completely white. I mean I've never seen anyone completely lose their color like she did. We sat there for about 10 minutes (Seemed like 10 hours) and she stormed up stairs to the bedroom. I had already confiscated her car keys (hey, the damn thing is paid for and in my name, no freaking way was she taking it!). I did not touch the computer or her phone, as I still have the tracking stuff on it, (btw, she is still unaware). She came down and asked for her keys and I asked her in a soft voice, _"you mean to my car?"_ She immediately called one of her girl friends to come pick her up. The last thing I said to her as she walked out the door was, call me now & then to let me know how you are doing. She replied GFY! and got in her girl friends car & left. We have not spoken since. I'm in the process tonight of changing all the locks on the doors, plus the code on the G-door.

That's kind of all of it up to now. My plan from here on out is to keep working with my lawyer & keep collecting evidence, I'm extremely interested to see if the tracking stuff picks up any communication with the OM. I'll try and keep you posted as best I can throughout this whole process. Unfortunately, unless some kind of miracle happens very soon, I'm relatively positive that R is out of the question. FYI, my next post may be in the D section.

One more thing, I now have another gift I'd like to thank the lying b!tch for. I'm currently experiencing severe panic attacks & really wild nightmares. Has anyone else had experience with this. I'm going to call my doctor tomorrow to see if he can give me something. Man these suck along with everything else going on  Good thing I'm really not into booze or the other stuff


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## DoormatNoMore53

To: morituri, Eli-Zor & Shaggy.

Hey guys, I have a couple of pressing questions I'd like to ask. Hope it's OK to ask just you guys? I don't want to come off as a jerk to the other members, but I connected with you three the most and really respect your opinions.

Anyway, I have not, up to this point, completely informed my 21 yo son, or my 38 yo daughter of everything that happened. They know that we were having problems & that WW has left as of today. However, I tried to explain to WW that it was her responsibility to inform the kids of her A. Obviously, she strongly resisted and said I just wanted revenge for what she did to me. My question is, what should I do now. Should I get them both together and tell them. How much detail should I go into.

Also, same as above, except for the rest of mine, and her family, e.g., aunts, uncles, cousins etc...?

Thanks in advance for any help and advice.

John


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## morituri

TallJohn1953 said:


> The last thing I said to her as she walked out the door was, call me now & then to let me know how you are doing. *She replied GFY!* and got in her girl friends car & left. We have not spoken since.


WOW! Her 'remorse' didn't last long, did it?



> One more thing, I now have another gift I'd like to thank the lying b!tch for. I'm currently experiencing severe panic attacks & really wild nightmares. Has anyone else had experience with this. I'm going to call my doctor tomorrow to see if he can give me something. Man these suck along with everything else going on  Good thing I'm really not into booze or the other stuff


Oh yeah BTDT have the T-shirt. My advice to you is to get yourself a good therapist that specializes in PTSD. This is trauma and you need a professional who specializes in helping people with traumatic experiences to become healthy.

FWIW, I'm glad that you are doing much better than when you posted your first comment. As a fellow survivor of infidelity, I can tell you that you will make it through this ordeal and come out a better man. Bank on it.


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## morituri

TallJohn1953 said:


> To: morituri, Eli-Zor & Shaggy.
> 
> Hey guys, I have a couple of pressing questions I'd like to ask. Hope it's OK to ask just you guys? I don't want to come off as a jerk to the other members, but I connected with you three the most and really respect your opinions.
> 
> Anyway, I have not, up to this point, completely informed my 21 yo son, or my 38 yo daughter of everything that happened. They know that we were having problems & that WW has left as of today. However, I tried to explain to WW that it was her responsibility to inform the kids of her A. Obviously, she strongly resisted and said I just wanted revenge for what she did to me. My question is, what should I do now. Should I get them both together and tell them. How much detail should I go into.
> 
> Also, same as above, except for the rest of mine, and her family, e.g., aunts, uncles, cousins etc...?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any help and advice.
> 
> John



I would keep it between you and your stbxw for the time beng. Of course if she later chooses to wage war against you, using lies to cast you as the bad guy with the children and other family members, then all bets are off and you can show everybody the information as proof.

I would talk to your stbxw and tell her that it is up to her how this will be handled. If she wants the divorce to be a quiet event with only the two of them knowing the real reason for it, then you will honor your vow of silence. But if she chooses to try to crucify you, that you will give everybody the evidence of her seedy 3 year affair so they can see the type of person she is. If she's got any sense left, she'll choose to keep her mouth shut.


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## DoormatNoMore53

Thanks morituri! I just knew somehow that you'd be the first one to reply back.



> WOW! Her 'remorse' didn't last long, did it?


Maybe I'm still a little naive but I really think the car thing set her off. I guess she really is a "Cake Eater".



> Oh yeah BTDT have the T-shirt. My advice to you is to get yourself a good therapist that specializes in PTSD.


So this is what I should tell my doc? Don't want to sound stupid, but I thought that was only for war vets?



> As a fellow survivor of infidelity, I can tell you that you will make it through this ordeal and come out a better man. Bank on it.


I really want to believe you on this one!!!! *Please don't judge me*, but what I did was really hard, and I have to admit that 15 seconds after she left, I started to second guess myself a little. Thank God it passed, but I still feel guilty and scared that I even felt like that at all!???? I just wish I knew a time frame on when I'll start feeling human again. I still have so far to go ya know.


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## DoormatNoMore53

> Originally Posted by *morituri!*
> I would keep it between you and your stbxw for the time beng. Of course if she later chooses to wage war against you, using lies to cast you as the bad guy with the children and other family members, then all bets are off and you can show everybody the information as proof.
> 
> I would talk to your stbxw and tell her that it is up to her how this will be handled. If she wants the divorce to be a quiet event with only the two of them knowing the real reason for it, then you will honor your vow of silence. But if she chooses to try to crucify you, that you will give everybody the evidence of her seedy 3 year affair so they can see the type of person she is. If she's got any sense left, she'll choose to keep her mouth shut.


This one is really gonna suck! Mostly because of my daughters three kids. Remember I told you that I was completely down for 9 months with the two surgeries? Unfortunately, I found some stuff where my daughter had chatted with WW about how I may have been milking my recovery. I love my daughter & I don't think she would intentionally blow me up behind my back. I think she was siding a little with WW just to be a shoulder to lean on. BTW, my daughter is a commitment junkie. She's always told me there's no good reason for D unless of infidelity. Anyway, If I don't tell her, I'm scared sh!tless I'll lose contact with my three little grand guys. That's really gonna sting!


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## morituri

It's up to you how you want to do it John. I was just commenting based on what you told your wife earlier. You obviously can limit the amount of exposure to only the people closest to you like your children. If you choose to do this, I would advise you not give them all the gory details, and just simply let them know that you have evidence of their mother's infidelity. That's all.

As far as the PTSD, yes it is normally for combat vets but these therapists also know that for many people, infidelity can be as traumatic as having witness a horrific act of war. Some people have committed suicide after finding out that their spouse had betrayed them. I briefly contemplated suicide when I saw that video of my ex-wife with the OM, but fortunately a friend came over who had also experienced infidelity with his ex-wife, and he helped me make the call to set an appointment with a therapist. The therapist I went to specialized in PTSD and he told me that what I witnessed was just as traumatic as what some of his combat vet patients experienced while in combat. Obviously you don't have to specifically select a PTSD therapist but if one is willing to take you on as a patient, I would jump at the chance if I were you.

John, the truth of the matter is that your wife had the obligation to tell you how much she was hurting being in a sexless marriage. The two of you could have come up with a workable solution that would have been mutually satisfactory. But she didn't and instead chose to disrespect you and herself by cheating. She is now reaping what she has sown and if divorce comes, she has no one to blame but herself.


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## Shaggy

TallJohn1953 said:


> To: morituri, Eli-Zor & Shaggy.
> 
> Hey guys, I have a couple of pressing questions I'd like to ask. Hope it's OK to ask just you guys? I don't want to come off as a jerk to the other members, but I connected with you three the most and really respect your opinions.
> 
> Anyway, I have not, up to this point, completely informed my 21 yo son, or my 38 yo daughter of everything that happened. They know that we were having problems & that WW has left as of today. However, I tried to explain to WW that it was her responsibility to inform the kids of her A. Obviously, she strongly resisted and said I just wanted revenge for what she did to me. My question is, what should I do now. Should I get them both together and tell them. How much detail should I go into.
> 
> Also, same as above, except for the rest of mine, and her family, e.g., aunts, uncles, cousins etc...?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any help and advice.
> 
> John


For the time being I would hold off telling them. Eventually you will need to, and if you R and she is remorseful a big step for her is to come clean to them. 

If you don't R, and you head to divorce, then yes. Tell them everything. 

--

So you're now seeing her go through the motions of negotiation, trying to get you to R, etc. I'm not hearing remorse.

I hear she came "clean", ok, that was totally for her benefit. It clears her conscience possibly to be able to tell her story. That's not R, that's not remorse. It's her telling her story.

I think for the very first time she is finally having to deal with the real consequences of her choice to cheat. It's totally foreign to her.


Yes contact the OMW- btw, she may have been drunk because she's found out his part and she's self medicating with booze.


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## DoormatNoMore53

Thanks morituri & Shaggy,

So I think I'm going to take your advice and hold off telling them everything. However, I & WW will have to obviously tell the kids something. I mean they now know that WW is out of the house and staying with her friend. Although this may sound petty, when I, or We tell them whatever, (like hey, we're having serious problems and it may end up in a separation or D), I want them to know that it's WW that caused the problems and NOT me! I actually think that I can get her to agree to this as, after all, it will be in lieu of a total exposure of the A and it's time frame. I even think that I can get her to do the telling to them in front of me. Do you think that this would be OK? And do you understand why I want this? Opinions please. Thanks.....

UPDATE!!!! We have a family meeting scheduled for 6:00pm TONIGHT! SH!t, now I'm having a panic attack on how I'm going to play this. I've got to scramble to set up a game plan. ANY advice before 6 would be greatly appreciated. ray:


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## Shaggy

Best advice: Do not drink. You need a very clear head right now.

Second advice: Whatever she says to blame or provoke you, don't take the bait or react. She very well might try and blame you, and if she can get you to loose it - then she wins the battle.

so stay strong, stay cool.

The worst that will happen is you get divorced. That's the worst. You can handle the worst, and come through it ok. Many people do each every day.

So if you can handle the worst - you can handle everything else!


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## DoormatNoMore53

Shag, So you think she may be planning to blow me up tonight in front of the kids?

I will stay strong and cool. I just hope she has enough self respect left in her to do the same. We're not really drinkers or anything elsers, so I don't see that as a prob. Just trying to get ahead of what might be coming tonight.


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## Shaggy

TallJohn1953 said:


> Shag, So you think she may be planning to blow me up tonight in front of the kids?
> 
> I will stay strong and cool. I just hope she has enough self respect left in her to do the same. We're not really drinkers or anything elsers, so I don't see that as a prob. Just trying to get ahead of what might be coming tonight.


I have no idea what she plans to do. 

If she called the kids to join you, I'm guessing she's going to announce that you're getting divorced. 

If she does that then consider now what you want to say to her, and the kids. It's doubtful she'll come clean to them, and she'll likely hide behind the whole "we haven't gotten along, it just didn't work, etc"

If she tries to down play it and say it's both you being responsible - what do you want to do?

You could just smile, say "No kids, where getting divorce because I caught her cheating on me for the last few years,and despite saying claiming it was over, she kept on behind my back. So that's why we're getting divorced." Then get up and leave the room.


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## aug

If she talks about the affair, do not accept her blame shifting. Her affair is 100% her own choice. And the fact it went on for so long should seal that in your head.

If your kids arent convinced, then show them the videos, pictures, emails, etc. Ask your wife to provide them.

You're the innocent party in all this.

Do not accept the blame or responsibility for her affair.

You'll be fine if you keep this fact in mind.

If she wants divorce, what say you?

If she wants reconciliation, do you?

If you do not know the answers to these questions, admit that and say you have to think about them.


Hope this helps.


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## DoormatNoMore53

OK, got it. It's 5:30pm, took a 1/4 Valium just to calm down. Good and relaxed now but not goofy. Have my plan in my head & just waiting for them to get here. So..........Game On! I'll post back when it's over to let you all know what happened.

BTW, just one more thing. I have to make this perfectly clear. At this point barring an absolute miracle (you know the walking on water kind etc...), an R is out of the question. Only thing left is D and how that will play out. I'll keep posting here until the papers are filed, then move on over to the D forum and go from there. Thanks again to all who stood by me and offered advice. You all, (save one, & she knows who she is), have been great through this. I can't begin to tell you what it's meant to me to have this support. :smthumbup: to all!

John


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## Shaggy

Tall, what went down? You ok?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

John, here's hoping that everything came out well for you in the meeting.


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## lordmayhem

Hoping it went smoothly and didn't become a shouting/blaming match.


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## DoormatNoMore53

Sorry for the delay in getting back and posting after our family meeting. Damn thing didn't end until 11:30pm.

You guys are probably going to beat me up after this post, but I believe in absolute honesty ... so here goes.

Everyone arrived on time (6:00pm). The meeting consisted of me, WW, my daughter and my son. My daughter brought her three sons, & after the usual uncle, grandma & grandpa welcome hugs & small talk, we put in a movie for them and asked the oldest to take control as we adults had some important things to discuss upstairs. All of us, sans kids then went up to our living room and sat down. There was an extremely awkward 10 mins, of dead silence & I could see the apprehension in my daughter & sons faces. I sat there not saying a word, as my plan was to let WW do the talking initially. Then....and this is no joke, I was flabbergasted to a degree I'd never been before!

*WW began to talk unsolicited, and low and behold she came completely clean to our kids.* I mean everything. Every detail except the actual sex acts themselves. The beginning of the A by trading emails, to the 1st meeting in 09, to the last in Sept of this year. Every location, hotel and the fact that she met OM twice during my recovery from two surgeries. She even talked about sending pics, although she didn't mention how graphic and also did not mention the videos. She cried though most of the story and really labored at times but hit every point dead on as I have it documented so far.

The kids were completely silent during the whole ordeal. I looked in their faces and knew they were in total shock. I remained silent as to be honest, I too was in shock. When WW ended, she tearfully turned to me & began begging for me to consider letting her back into my life. She stated that she knew she didn't deserve even the slightest consideration from me because of what she had done, it's length and how she had lied about it many times even after my D. She also stated that if she was me, she wouldn't be inclined to accept or consider any compassion or reconciliation. I didn't say a word.

The kids at that point finally spoke up and, almost simultaneously said, "your GD right mom, dad owes you nothing at this point. They continued to berate her and ask her questions, mostly how the f*ck could you do this to dad & to us! I let this go on for a long, long while and then said enough. It was getting REAL nasty, and while I knew WW deserved every bit of it, it was getting uneasy, even for me to take anymore.

The kids then turned to me and asked what I was going to do. I think they knew already what the answer was going to be. I didn't hesitate, I told them that due to the evil nature of the A, the subsequent lying after D & WW's non remorse since up until now, I didn't feel there was much chance of R. I didn't even have to bring up D as they knew that was my line of thinking. They just shook their heads as if they knew exactly where I was coming from. My daughter was crying, my son looked like I must have after D, angry, shocked, hurt...all of the above. I told them that I knew this was a shock and that it hurt, I also told them that I loved them and always will & not to ever think that they had any fault in what happened.

We talked and talked and surprisingly, the rest of convo was calm & collected. Everyone left around 11:30.

Here's the part you're most likely going to beat me up over. *While I'm still resolute in my decision & my path forward*, I can't help being somewhat confused . I really didn't expect WW to do what she did. I can't help wondering WHY the F*ck she just didn't do it from the beginning of D!? The only thing I can figure is that she talked it over with her girl friend and they came to the conclusion that what she should do is come completely clean. Obviously, it's a little (LOT) freaking late for me. However, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't more than a little intrigued. I'm going to take a few days and mull all of this over in my head. As I said, I'm just confused right now.

John


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## aug

Take your time to mull things over. Let things settle in your mind.

You dont anyone an answer at this time.

But dont take too long that you become accustomed to the limbo situation.


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## lordmayhem

aug said:


> Take your time to mull things over. Let things settle in your mind.
> 
> You dont anyone an answer at this time.
> 
> But dont take too long that you become accustomed to the limbo situation.


:iagree:

It's rare to get full disclosure like that in front of you and the family, I mean very rare. I too would be a little intrigued at this point. Most of us BSs will never get full disclosure or even the truth. Most WSs will take the truth to their graves, even in the face of proof. 

Take your time to process this, but don't let anyone get their hopes up that you're thinking of R, that way they don't try to put any pressure on you.


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## sadcalifornian

I carefully venture to say that there might be a slim ray of hope for R here. What she has done is atrocious. But, when someone comes clean the way she did and begs for forgiveness, you can't help wondering if she finally has come to her senses. This confession does not negate what she has done, but if I were you, I would take time to think things thru one more time as to what to do. 

This is your life and your marriage. Make the decision that you can live with. Nobody will criticize you no matter which way you decide.


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## Eli-Zor

Take your time and work on your health , physical , mental and emotional . You may change your mind about seperation you may not . Depending what your wife says and does from here on will decide if you put the brakes on . I suggest you take a break from everything, don't think of what has happened , step away from TAM for a couple of days and rest your mind .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

What consequences for herself did she offer in order to return?

I assume for starters full transparency, no ale firends, full access to fb, email etc?

You might send her away for a month or two just to give yourself time to clear your head.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DoormatNoMore53

Shaggy said:


> What consequences for herself did she offer in order to return?
> 
> I assume for starters full transparency, no ale friends, full access to fb, email etc?


To be honest Shag, I was in such a state of shock that nothing much got through my head after her FD but hearing her beg to let her back in my life. I do remember her saying that *"I"* would have *"FULL"* control of *"when & how"* she would come back. Other than that, it was a blur. Also, the kids began to really turn on her, to the point of getting pretty nasty, (which I completely understand). After a half hour or so of that, I was sort of playing referee. In hind sight, I probably should have left the room and just let them work it out. 



Shaggy said:


> You might send her away for a month or two just to give yourself time to clear your head.


_Posted via Mobile Device_

I like this idea a lot for two reasons. 1. I'm still REALLY pissed, hurt, numb....whatever. It'll give me time to think things through without having to look at her and wanting to choke her, (I've already set up appts. for myself with a therapist that specializes in PTSD and is also an MC. 2. This time out will give her some time to _"eat her cake"_ elsewhere for awhile. Maybe she'll finally understand that she not only blew up our marriage, but also lost her security. 

FYI, my therapist talked to my doc & he prescribed Lexapro for me. He said it wasn't a cure all, just to get me over the hump (stop the panic attacks), until we can start something called CB behavior therapy.


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## Eli-Zor

It's is counter productive for either of you to move out , more often in causes the marriage to end. Work on yourself, behave with dignity and respect to your wife and children . Give this time , many marriages have recovered from far worse. No hasty decisions despite how you feel now you will think differently in a couple of weeks time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DoormatNoMore53

Eli-Zor said:


> Take your time and work on your health , physical , mental and emotional . You may change your mind about seperation you may not . Depending what your wife says and does from here on will decide if you put the brakes on . I suggest you take a break from everything, don't think of what has happened , step away from TAM for a couple of days and rest your mind .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good advice Eli-Zor, I'm going to do that. I start therapy early next week, (by myself). I think I'll concentrate on that for awhile to get *"ME"* back to feeling human first. I'm also starting on a med (Lexapro), the therapist suggested to my doc. It's supposed to help with the panic attacks & bad dreams. It takes 7 days to start kicking in.

She's sent a couple of texts already today just asking how I am. All I sent back is _"I have to think for awhile"_. Thank God tomorrow is Sun. Lots of football so I can maybe just sit and comatose all day.


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## Eli-Zor

It's good she is texting you. Your wife wont have a plan on what to do and will be floundering looking for ways to evidence she is willing to work on the marriage. Give her a book as a gift " his needs Her needs" by Harley. If she reads the book it will give her a start .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DoormatNoMore53

Eli-Zor said:


> It's is counter productive for either of you to move out , more often in causes the marriage to end. Work on yourself, behave with dignity and respect to your wife and children . Give this time , many marriages have recovered from far worse. No hasty decisions despite how you feel now you will think differently in a couple of weeks time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She's already out (her decision). Funny thing is that she didn't offer FD until she was out and came for the family meeting. So while I understand what you're saying, the deed has already been done. I think it would be counter productive to for me to capitulate now and ask her to come back this soon. I don't know, I'm gonna give it a few days to settle and at least get 1 or 2 sessions with the therapist.



> behave with dignity and respect


I am doing this! I've *NEVER, EVER* stooped to name calling, physical violence or even rancor. Can't say the same for her in the beginning though.


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## aug

Your kids are grown up. So that should not be the reason to stay together.

Financially, you dont need her.

Sex? Well nothing for 12 years. And she was with her lover for the last 3 years. She gave you nothing. You at 58 should be fairly attractive to other single women right now. There are lots (I mean lots) of single women out there well within your age range.

Emotional support. You have shown yourself recently that you can be okay with not needing her.

So, I think the equation is all in your favor. Divorce her. Move on to another phase of your life. You still have at least 20 more years that you could use to pursue one of your unfulfilled dreams (I hope you still have those.  )


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## DoormatNoMore53

Eli-Zor said:


> It's good she is texting you. Your wife wont have a plan on what to do and will be floundering looking for ways to evidence she is willing to work on the marriage. *Give her a book as a gift " his needs Her needs" by Harley. If she reads the book it will give her a start .*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Eli-Zor, I've read the first chapter of this book and I'm really impressed. Amazing how it details a lot of what happened to us. I'm going out to get this today. I want to read the whole book myself before I decide to give it to her, (and I'll only do that if I decide to hold up on the D for awhile, which right now is still a real long shot), but THANKS for the heads up on this. :smthumbup:


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## morituri

Sadly now the traumatized has gone from 1 to 3 (you and your adult children). I would like for you to consider the idea of your children to accompany you to your therapy sessions. Not just for support you but so they can also apply some of therapy for their own personal recovery. It may cost a bit more, but it may be worth it for they to have had their lives shaken to the core by this traumatic revelation of their mother's betrayal.


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## DoormatNoMore53

aug said:


> Your kids are grown up. So that should not be the reason to stay together.
> 
> Financially, you dont need her.
> 
> Sex? Well nothing for 12 years. And she was with her lover for the last 3 years. She gave you nothing. You at 58 should be fairly attractive to other single women right now. There are lots (I mean lots) of single women out there well within your age range.
> 
> Emotional support. You have shown yourself recently that you can be okay with not needing her.
> 
> So, I think the equation is all in your favor. Divorce her. Move on to another phase of your life. You still have at least 20 more years that you could use to pursue one of your unfulfilled dreams (I hope you still have those.  )


Geez aug, While I appreciate your candor, and I know in your heart you're just trying to look out for me, please give me a chance to digest what happened last night. *I'm not going to run back into her arms!!!!* I've grown much to much over the last week for that. I'm just confused and need a little time to think, can you at least understand that? It took us 37 years to get where we're at. I'm thinking it won't harm anything to take a few days to settle down, analyze, see my therapist, let the meds kick in and be clear headed going forward. *I still think it's over*, but there's no harm in taking it a little slow for a few days.

P.s. I'm not ragging on you. Just trying to explain my mindset right now which is a combination of intrigue & confusion.


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## DoormatNoMore53

F!UCK THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm so F!UCKING confused right now that my head is ready to explode!

I'm getting advice from left field, right field, center field and the F!ucking dugout! I don't need this right now. Who ever said, step away from TAM for a few days and collect your thoughts was ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!! None of you was there last night! None of you heard and saw what happened! None of you saw what my kids went through! *While I STILL believe* in my heart that it's over, *WHY is it such a BAD thing* to take a few F!CKING days to just think rationally about what happened and try to put it into perspective. I sometimes think some people comment without reading a full post. While I know my posts are sometimes, (many times) long, please take the time to read them through.

I'm sorry for the rant & also sorry if I offended anyone. That was not my intention. I'm really confused guys. Give me some time.

FYI, I love you guys for getting me through this so far but I need to step away temporarily. I'll be taking a few days break from here. Bottom line is that this is *MY* life we're talking about here. I have to do what's right for *ME*. I'll be back after meds & some personal therapy. I hope you will all understand and support that.

John


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## morituri

I get your point John and take no offense by it. Have a great weekend.


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## Eli-Zor

Take the break and rest your mind, we are not going anywhere.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aug

TallJohn1953 said:


> Geez aug, While I appreciate your candor, and I know in your heart you're just trying to look out for me, please give me a chance to digest what happened last night. *I'm not going to run back into her arms!!!!* I've grown much to much over the last week for that. I'm just confused and need a little time to think, can you at least understand that? It took us 37 years to get where we're at. I'm thinking it won't harm anything to take a few days to settle down, analyze, see my therapist, let the meds kick in and be clear headed going forward. *I still think it's over*, but there's no harm in taking it a little slow for a few days.
> 
> P.s. I'm not ragging on you. Just trying to explain my mindset right now which is a combination of intrigue & confusion.



You're right. You do need time. I should have taken my own advice to you about taking your time to mull it over.


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## sadcalifornian

Sometimes, posters try to influence to either D or R, implying as if you don't follow their advised course of action, you are being pathetic or not a man enough. Don't be swayed by those posts. The ultimate decision is yours. You are right that this is your life and your marriage. 

Take time and think things thru.


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## DoormatNoMore53

Hello Everyone! I’m baaaaack! .

Just wanted to give you an update of what’s been happening over the last few days. First though, I want to apologize again for snapping on Friday in my last post. My only excuse is that I was on complete overload. 

Also, as you can see I’ve changed my handle to _*DoormatNoMore53*_. I did this because WW has been searching for relationship and infidelity stuff and actually viewed a thread on this forum. My other handle would have exposed me in a heartbeat.

Anyway, what a fast paced and mind blowing last few days I’ve had. Please try and bear with me as some of this stuff is going to really sound off the wall to you. I can’t believe a lot of it myself, and it’s happening to ME!

Saturday & Sunday were just wind down and chill days for me which I really needed. I got the script for Lexapro and although I don’t feel any different yet (which I fully didn't expect so soon), it does seem to have slowed down the panic attacks a bit. In fact, I’ve only had one real bad episode Sunday eve. I’ve already met with my personal therapist twice and really like him. He seems to have a good handle on PTSD and infidelity issues; in fact he handled my brothers Vietnam PTSD issues in 1993. We’re currently working on a form of Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy (CBT).

That’s only a small part of the story though. WW has been constantly texting me. I told her I needed a short break on Sat. eve & to get back to me on Monday.

*I’m going to try and break this up into separate posts, so they’re not as long. However, there’s a lot to tell you so bear with me...Much more to come below...*


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## DoormatNoMore53

*Hello Everyone! I’m baaaaack! Cont….#2*

So early yesterday, I get this email from WW which I have to share because it totally blew my mind, as it is the first time she’s taken any real responsibility directly & only to me. BTW, this was totally unsolicited. Also, be advised, it’s rather long.

Monday 12-12-11 7:38am
_“I woke up early this morning with you on my mind and the thoughts of how guilty and ashamed I am for hurting you so bad. First off I want to tell you again how very sorry I am and how I wish I could take it all back. I know the hurt, betrayal and lies have to dig so deep it's worse than a stab in the heart. I know what I'm feeling for what I've done to you is nothing compared to that. Again, I don't pretend to know what you're going through but I'm sure it's a living hell and I'm so honestly sorry for that. I've been beating myself up on why I did what I did. The most honest answer I can give you is I was SELFISH. It had nothing to do with you, it was all about me. I gave no thought to you or the kids and what the consequences would be. I thought of no one but myself. What an eye-opener that was for me to admit it to myself. I apologize for that with all my heart and can only hope that one day you’ll forgive me.

I know you can’t believe this right now but I do care for you deeply, and love and want you. I don't want you worrying about me on top of everything else. It won't help either of us. And no, I don’t want us to be apart. Not because I just want security but because I need to own up to what I did and look in your eyes every day and see the pain I've caused and try to repair it. The shame, guilt and physical problems I’m feeling and having are totally my problem not yours! I did this to you and have no one else to blame but myself for any problems I’m and you are now having. I don’t want any of this to be about me, just about what I did and how I can help you feel better some day by showing you that I get it. I will however try to start taking better care of myself if only for your sake so you can stop worrying. I want there to be an “US” again and for both of us to be healthy if that's possible. BTW…I have made an appointment to get tested. I will let you know when and where if you want to be there. Either way I will give you the original written results from their office as soon as I have them.

FYI....I have been searching for and looking at marriage help forums. I’ve been reading alot and getting alot of information that makes so much sense to me now and helps me to see the damage I've done to you and our marriage. I’ve printed out mounds of helpful stuff that I read and re-read constantly. I need to stay focused on you and what I need to do in order to repair the awful damage I’ve done to you. At present I don’t deserve any more than the opportunity to try and do that if you’ll let me. 

There's no need for you to be ashamed or apologize for how you're feeling…panic attacks etc... They're your feelings! My job now is to try and understand them and help you recover from them if I can and if you’ll let me. If I were in your shoes I would absolutely feel the same way. I would want you to feel the exact same pain I would be feeling. I know you'll probably never be able to forgive me for what I've done and that's something I'll have to live with for the rest of my life and I deserve it. I want you to know that I am fully committed to trying recovery and to our relationship if you see fit to continue it. I promise that if you choose to let me I will do whatever I have to do to help repair it. I know it will never be the same but I hope we can eventually start a new foundation once we talk to **** and build on that. I also promise that I will cherish and be thankful everyday that you're letting me try to help make this work....again if you choose to.”_

I read this and texted her that I did receive it and to give me some time to re-read it and think about it.....

Even more below....


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## DoormatNoMore53

*Hello Everyone! I’m baaaaack! Cont….#3*


On Monday afternoon, I then received this email from WW:

Monday 12-12-11 2:07pm
_“I know that you’re reading and thinking about my earlier email and I don’t want you to feel pressured about responding to it, but I’ve been sitting here thinking again and I wanted to ask you something. I know that I don’t deserve any consideration in asking for favors after what I’ve done but if you could find it in your heart to please hear me out I would be grateful.

I wondered if you would consider meeting me for coffee or lunch some time this week… my treat. I truly meant every word in my other email and I would like the opportunity to express what I said while we’re face to face. I’d like for you to see my eyes and expressions while I talk and maybe you will be able to believe more of it. You won’t have to say anything just listen to and watch me. I know you’re still very hurt and mad and this is asking alot when I have no right to ask anything of you. If you could just give me a chance to talk in person it would mean alot to me. Thanks for reading this”_

Again, I texted her and said I read the 2nd email and would think about it.

I had an evening session yesterday with my therapist and I brought copies of the two emails to show him. He read them and like any good therapist would do, he asked me how I felt about them. I told him I was even more confused but even so, I was leaning towards accepting her offer because it had me intrigued. I also told him that I was extremely suspicious and wondered what she had up her sleeve. He then asked me if I was still tracking her computer and phone. I said yes, and he suggested that I verify her statement that she was searching for, & visiting marriage help forums and infidelity sites. He also said that if I could, to try and visit those sites and see if she had copied anything from them in her emails. I immediately knew then what he was driving at. He wanted me to know if what she had written was in her own words, or just copied from someone else’s. I told him I thought it was a great idea. He then gave me his cell # and told me to call him later that night if I discovered anything.

I immediately went to my tracking software when I got home. I hadn’t been looking at it for several days while I was taking a break from all this. What I found was exactly what she told me. Loads of Google searches for “marriage help forum”, “relationship forum”, “advice for cheating wives” etc… I started to visit the sites she went to and compare what I saw to what she had written. Bottom line…I found no evidence of any plagiarism. I called my therapist and told him what I had found. He asked me what I thought. I told him I was going to consider contacting WW and setting up the meet.

OK, so these last three posts are already way too long. Sorry about that 

Now it’s your turn. Advice, Comments, Flames…whatever please. Let me hear it? Do you think WW could finally be getting it, or running another game on me? Do you think this could be real or just smoke? If real, do you think there may be a chance for R (if I want to)? Do you think I should agree to meet with WW? If so, I’m thinking of having the meet at my house, (I feel more comfortable there. My son will be at work and besides, it’s kinda hard to not talk & stare someone down in public without looking like an idiot.) So what do you think?


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## Shaggy

Eventually you will have to meet her, but do not be rushed to do it before you are ready.

I think you need a couple of days to recharge your emotions so take them, and do not meet or chat until late in the week at the earliest.

If sh is reading forums she is likely looking for the list of things to do to make you feel better and not hate her so much. He goal seems to be to R which means convincing you she is sorry and then negotiating what she needs to do for you to let he return to her home. Notice I didn't say anything about helping you. Anyone who has been so selfish and deceitful for so long isn't going to change their personality over night.

She may believe she was selfish, or she maybe saying that because he has read in the forums that cheaters are selfish. Don't know, you'll have to see her and observe her to tell if she really has had an awakening.

Before you meet with her you need to think through the list of actions and consequences you have for her. Any R here will require a major reconstruction of your marriage and the rules in it. Her personal freedom and her secrecy is gone out the window for one.

You said she came clean, and she says the why is because she was selfish. This isnt the end of that discussion.

How dd she meet the people she cheated with? Was there more than one? 

What was she getting from him? What was she willing to give to him? Why did she keep going back?

what about the OM and consequences to him?

What about the no contact letter from her to him,

What is going to prevent it ever again? Do not accept her " I know I made a mistake now so itcouod never happen again " crap. She knew it was wrong and the death of the marriage the first time, yet she chose to do it, and hid it, and kept it going.

Let her stew a little. Her offer to meet gives you something constructive to do so it's likely temping to take it and start moving so that you feel you are doing something, but to do it before you recharge you, will mean its a wasted opportunity.

So bottom line, take time and do it at your pace. She took what 3 years out of your life for her cheating. You can take a week, two, a month out of hers while you think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

One more thing, do you know it's really really over? That there will never be any contact. Can you monitor where she is and who she's contacting?

You can also move over to the private section if you are worried she might find this forum,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered

she can talk the talk now, but can she walk the walk?

I'm with shaggy, while it is a good sign she is reading and learning what it takes to R as a wayward, at the same time it will take a lot to change her ways

so, you've done the right thing, you aren't rushing to be in her arms again. Take your time in deciding what you want and if it's worth the emotional investment and time to try to R. It's a good chunk of time of your life to attempt something like that.

Besides, making her squirm a little while you decide is a good thing for her to go through.


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## DoormatNoMore53

Shaggy said:


> One more thing, do you know it's really really over? That there will never be any contact. Can you monitor where she is and who she's contacting?
> 
> You can also move over to the private section if you are worried she might find this forum,
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks Shag,

Yes I do know it's over. I watched her send the NC letter and she has received a reply back from the OM stating that he agreed and that this will be the last time we ever talk. I still have the tracking software on her computer, also on her smart phone. There is more but for L reasons I don't want to divulge anything else. I am very confident though that she has not had any contact with the OM since NC conformation.

Where is the private section? Will you, and the others be over there? Will my thread be moved there? :scratchhead:

Thanks.


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## Shaggy

Go back to main menu and look in the Private Members link.

I think you need to start a new thread, ask the admins maybe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

Welcome back John.

No flames from me and I'm glad that you're back sounding stronger.

I just want to touch on a few things for you to give some consideration.

Your DW sounds remorseful enough but my concern is whether the two of you can handle the arduous task of marital recovery IF you chose that path. There is the natural tendency for the cheating spouse to want things to go back to the way they were before D-day quickly enough and feel hopeless when their betrayed spouse experiences the bottom drops of the emotional roller coaster and lashes out at them. A betrayed spouse's emotional recovery can take up to 5 years. Can the 2 of you stomach this?

Now due to your back conditions that have required surgeries, the two of you have only been sexually intimate only twice in twelve years. She in turn has had a vigorous sex life on the side for 3 years. Can this be resolved to both of your satisfaction?

Whatever the two of you decide on doing, do it with both eyes wide open without any rose colored glasses on.


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## Almostrecovered

just PM a mod like amplexor and ask to move this thread into the private section


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## Shaggy

If you do R, what about the sex part? She clearly values it. He worked hard for years to have it with this OM. Are you able to meet that need of hers?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DoormatNoMore53

Shaggy said:


> I think you need a couple of days to recharge your emotions so take them, and do not meet or chat until late in the week at the earliest.


:iagree:



Shaggy said:


> If sh is reading forums she is likely looking for the list of things to do to make you feel better and not hate her so much. He goal seems to be to R which means convincing you she is sorry and then negotiating what she needs to do for you to let he return to her home. Notice I didn't say anything about helping you. Anyone who has been so selfish and deceitful for so long isn't going to change their personality over night.


:iagree: again.



Shaggy said:


> She may believe she was selfish, or she maybe saying that because he has read in the forums that cheaters are selfish. Don't know, you'll have to see her and observe her to tell if she really has had an awakening.


That's why I'm intrigued about face to face meeting. 



Shaggy said:


> Before you meet with her you need to think through the list of actions and consequences you have for her. Any R here will require a major reconstruction of your marriage and the rules in it. Her personal freedom and her secrecy is gone out the window for one.


I've already started to make a list. Also, have already told her to expect anywhere from 18 months to five years, *IF* we R.



Shaggy said:


> You said she came clean, and she says the why is because she was selfish. This isnt the end of that discussion.


Oh, hell no. It's not even the beginning of the end. It just may be the end of the beginning though 



Shaggy said:


> How dd she meet the people she cheated with? Was there more than one?


Met OM on a cooking forum site. My PI has told me that he can find no other info on additional affairs. While I'm still skeptical, I guess OM was the only time. 



Shaggy said:


> What was she getting from him? What was she willing to give to him? Why did she keep going back?


Yet to be determined, but all very valid points I'm adding to my list. 



Shaggy said:


> what about the OM and consequences to him?


Oh Sh!t, I forgot to include that. I've made contact with the OMW. I now have a working relationship with her on her end to monitor the situation. I even gave her the info on what T software I'm using. BTW, she is an alcoholic. Says it's because of him which I tend to believe (freakin SOB) Unfortunately, because of her addiction, I just don't know how reliable she'll be. I have got some pretty good stuff from her, although nothing I didn't know already.



Shaggy said:


> What about the no contact letter from her to him,


Sent and confirmed with me present to see it and printed out for records.



Shaggy said:


> What is going to prevent it ever again? Do not accept her " I know I made a mistake now so itcouod never happen again " crap. She knew it was wrong and the death of the marriage the first time, yet she chose to do it, and hid it, and kept it going.


:iagree: First thing to work on *IF* we R. Plus, tracking will remain until I'm satisfied. Also, total disclosure of all accounts, passwords, daily whereabouts etc...etc...



Shaggy said:


> Let her stew a little. Her offer to meet gives you something constructive to do so it's likely temping to take it and start moving so that you feel you are doing something, but to do it before you recharge you, will mean its a wasted opportunity.
> 
> So bottom line, take time and do it at your pace. She took what 3 years out of your life for her cheating. You can take a week, two, a month out of hers while you think.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree: But do you think I should also run this past my therapist? I really do respect his opinion. Just asking?


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## Almostrecovered

I also suggest that if you do meet her that you merely ask for the entire truth from her only and that you will listen, ask some questions and then get back to her after you've processed everything. State that if you were to consider R that you must hear everything now and if anything else is discovered down the line then it is completely over, so she better come clean on everything


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## DoormatNoMore53

morituri said:


> Welcome back John.
> 
> No flames from me and I'm glad that you're back sounding stronger.


Thanks, good to be back! BTW, not that anyone is, but no need to baby me, I just had a bad day Friday. 



morituri said:


> A betrayed spouse's emotional recovery can take up to 5 years. Can the 2 of you stomach this?


Don't know for sure, don't think anyone does, but I can promise that *I will not agree to R* if I don't *REALLY* believe WW understands this! 



morituri said:


> Now due to your back conditions that have required surgeries, the two of you have only been sexually intimate only twice in twelve years. She in turn has had a vigorous sex life on the side for 3 years. Can this be resolved to both of your satisfaction?


Can't be positive on this one either. I can tell you that I'm feeling the best I have since my condition started back in 1995. Guess we'll cross that bridge when & *IF* we come to it, i.e., *IF* we R. BTW, I won't even consider it until I have the STD test results in my hands!



morituri said:


> Whatever the two of you decide on doing, do it with both eyes wide open without any rose colored glasses on.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## DoormatNoMore53

Thanks AR,



Almostrecovered said:


> she can talk the talk now, but can she walk the walk?


Don't know but I may be about to find out 



Almostrecovered said:


> so, you've done the right thing, you aren't rushing to be in her arms again. Take your time in deciding what you want and if it's worth the emotional investment and time to try to R. It's a good chunk of time of your life to attempt something like that.


Not rushing into anything anymore. 18 months to 5 years is a long time, but so is 37 years. If I *really feel she is on the level* and *all the criteria is met by her,* then yes, definitely it will be worth it.



Almostrecovered said:


> Besides, making her squirm a little while you decide is a good thing for her to go through.


As much as I hate to admit it - :iagree: It's also a good thing for me to go through right now


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## DoormatNoMore53

Almostrecovered said:


> I also suggest that if you do meet her that you merely ask for the entire truth from her only and that you will listen, ask some questions and then get back to her after you've processed everything. State that if you were to consider R that you must hear everything now and if anything else is discovered down the line then it is completely over, so she better come clean on everything


Have already done this and have confirmed it with T software on both her computer & smart phone. Also by a PI I still have on retainer. But I get your point. Never hurts to reiterate something as important as this, so will do if and when we meet.


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## DoormatNoMore53

> If you do R, what about the sex part? She clearly values it. He worked hard for years to have it with this OM. Are you able to meet that need of hers?


Shag, see my reply post to morituri ^. About 3rd question or so I think.


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## DoormatNoMore53

> just PM a mod like amplexor and ask to move this thread into the private section


Thanks AR, I'm going to try now.


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## DoormatNoMore53

Just a heads up. I just sent a PM to amplexor about moving this thread to the private section. Stay tuned.....ray:


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## morituri

Maybe the following goes without saying but nevertheless, if you choose to reconciliate, you may want to make your WW aware from the onset that a probationary period must be put passed before you will consider accept any final reconciliation. This is necessary because:

1. It gives you breathing space that you are not locking yourself in to a situation that may be too much for you to handle. 

2. It shows your WW that the marriage is not out of the woods and that she will have to prove herself worthy, through her actions, of a final reconciliation.

There are lots of stories where reconciliation was entered without a probationary period and in almost of them, divorce was the final outcome. Granted that even with the a probationary period, divorce may be the final outcome in your case, but a probationary period at the very least will eliminate a false recovery.


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## DoormatNoMore53

morituri said:


> Maybe the following goes without saying but nevertheless, if you choose to reconciliate, you may want to make your WW aware from the onset that a probationary period must be put passed before you will consider accept any final reconciliation. This is necessary because:
> 
> 1. It gives you breathing space that you are not locking yourself in to a situation that may be too much for you to handle.
> 
> 2. It shows your WW that the marriage is not out of the woods and that she will have to prove herself worthy, through her actions, of a final reconciliation.
> 
> There are lots of stories where reconciliation was entered without a probationary period and in almost of them, divorce was the final outcome. Granted that even with the a probationary period, divorce may be the final outcome in your case, but a probationary period at the very least will eliminate a false recovery.


Me likey this idea a lot  Sorry, getting a little slap happy from the Lexapro I guess. Anyway, is this something that should be put into writing like a contract? If so, do you know of any templates that may be available?

I've already fashioned something with my lawyer called a "Provisional Disillusionment". Basically what happens with it is, I & WW sign it, but no action is taken unless one of the document stipulations is met like another infidelity, asset theft etc... I wonder if I could just add this probationary period stuff to that? Hum...looks like I'll have to call my lawyer again  

Thanks for the tip morituri.


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## DoormatNoMore53

Got another session with my therapist at 2:30 today. I'm gonna run all of this by him and talk about it. I really like this guy and value his opinions. Mostly cause he's been there twice and knows all the pitfalls, angles & even catch phrases. Kind of cool to be face to face with someone who really knows & can relate. 

I'll post back after the session to pick your guys brains some more.

See ya, I'm outa here...


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## Shaggy

Get all the advice from as any angles as you can, but in the end listen to your gut.

Keep in mind you IC is to help you manage you, his job isn't to make decision or guide you as an oracle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DoormatNoMore53

*Back from Therapist Session..... *

Had another great session with my T. This guy is amazing. And yeah Shag, I know I'm vulnerable right now and I may be transferring a little because he's a shoulder to lean on, but I just can't help it. The guy resonates with me and what he says comes off to me as intelligent, straight forward and truthful.

Anyway, we did some CB stuff for half the session and then I brought up again what's been happening with WW yesterday & today. I told him that I was thinking of making her sweat a little and oh boy, his eyes rolled up. He asked why I thought that was such a good idea. I told him because it would make me look less desperate, her want it even more, and that she also deserved it....More rolling eyes, and he says, are we school boys now? If you want to just punish her, than file for D now. But if you really want to gauge her reactions to what she's telling you, why give her more time to rehearse what she's going say? Make her do it now, or as soon as you can, so it's as spontaneous and unrehearsed as possible. Isn't THAT our goal here? I see no value at all in making her wait, in fact, I think it will devalue your objective.

I thought for awhile, and then told him that it was hard to come up with a good argument for what he had said but I was still worried that I may look desperate if I set the meet up too soon. He replied back that you *ARE* desperate, but not for the meeting. Your desperate to find out the truth about whether or not she's on the level. So again, why wait, lets do it as soon as we can.

He then asked me what I thought the earliest day was I could set the meeting up for. I told him probably as soon as tomorrow night. He asked how I would contact her and I said most likely by email. Then he looks at me and says, so... why don't you email her and try to set it up for tomorrow? I said what now? He said yes. You've got your smart phone, or you can use my laptop. I hesitated and he said look, we've agreed that there's no value in waiting right? I said yeah... and pulled out my phone.

Bottom line is that I emailed WW and told her that I wanted to meet tomorrow at 6pm. It took her all of 2 minutes to reply back & accept. So I'm sorry guys but that's the plan of action. I have to be honest and tell you that the argument my T made was a sound one to me. Why play games at this point when all I want to do is look her in the eyes while she talks, and gauge her reactions. I don't have to commit to anything tomorrow and *I won't!* What I will have is a better idea of whether she's bullsh!tting me again, or really trying to do the right thing.

Anyway, it's game on now. I'm in the process of finishing up my list of questions & conditions. I'm positive I'll be ready for tomorrow. I'm gonna hop off now cause I have a feeling I'm going to get blasted from some of you for this. Go ahead and let me have it. Just know that in my mind, I'm positive I did the correct thing.


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## Shaggy

One reason for holding off was to give you time emotionally to recharge, but if your feeling charged then hey wait.

Remember when taking advice here or anywhere, we all have opinions but you will own the consequences.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

No need to apologize to us John. Your therapist is the expert who you should rely on to help you heal from the trauma of betrayal. We are here to lend you emotional support during this trying time.


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## DoormatNoMore53

OK FYI, The meeting is set up for this evening at 6:00pm at my house. To be honest, I’m scared sh!tless for some reason. I guess if I’m really going to be honest with myself, I’m hoping this is real and there is a chance for legitimate R. However, right now I’m able to temper that and I’m going into this with *eyes wide open*!

I realize that even if it is real and we agree to R, it’s coming off an LTA and the odds are not really in our favor. I just keep thinking 37 years. That’s a long time, even though the last three of them I totally lost; and how I lost them was evil to say the least. However, I also realize how good it was with her before I lost my business and my back issues began. Oh sh!t, I’m getting very confused again 

One thing I do know for sure. There will be *NO* snap decisions tonight. I’m resolute in taking time after this meeting to try and analyze what was said and how it was delivered. I also want to consult my therapist and talk it over fully with him. I’ll try and post after the meet tonight and let you know how it all went…wish me luck…and stay tuned…..

John


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## Almostrecovered

let me ask you about the back and sex issue because it is an issue that will have to be dealt with if you attempt R

is it an injury that inhibits all types of sex? Can any intercourse be done without pain? Can oral be done for either of you? Do the meds take away your drive? etc?


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## DoormatNoMore53

Almostrecovered said:


> let me ask you about the back and sex issue because it is an issue that will have to be dealt with if you attempt R. is it an injury that inhibits all types of sex? Can any intercourse be done without pain? Can oral be done for either of you? Do the meds take away your drive? etc?


I'm feeling much better than I did when it all started, (I mean the condition). I think the hip replacement and aqua therapy has a lot to do with it, so the answer to your first question is No. The answers to your last three questions are Yes, Definitely Yes, and No, not that I'm aware of.

Your post did bring up another thought for me though. I really believe that WW was in this affair for the thrill of it _*more than the actual sex*_. I mean I think she got off on the idea that she was being clandestine and might get caught. If I'm right about that, then what I have to do *if* we R, is be aware of those feelings and desires in her and think up some creative ways to fulfill them. e.g., maybe having her meet me at a bar & then going and getting a room, or fooling around outdoors etc...etc... I know there's a forum here at TAM where I can probably get some great ideas for this. Anyway, just something I've been thinking about.


----------



## DoormatNoMore53

I’m back with an update of the meeting with WW tonight. Here’s the complete rundown:

WW arrived exactly at 6:00pm. I think she was parked nearby for a while so she could hit it right on the dot lol. I let her in and we went downstairs to the family room. We sat facing each other and there was a short and very awkward few minutes of silence, then she started to talk.

She started off with how sorry and ashamed she was and how she now understood how bad she hurt me and our marriage. Then to my amazement, she handed to me a legal pad sheet and told me that it had all of her id’s and passwords for all of her accounts on it, including her smart phone. She said that she understood that I would never be able to fully trust her again, and that she needed to be totally open with everything she does from now on, (check off one of my conditions – lol). She really started to tear up at this point and I got her a box of tissues.

She continued to talk through her sobbing and told me that she deserved to be put out on her ass for being so stupid and causing me so much pain. Also that she tried but couldn’t even imagine how f#cked up I must be and the hurt I must be feeling over her cheating & constant lying. She told me that she wasn’t excusing her actions in any way, but she didn’t come completely clean with me on D-day because she feared I would end it then & there. Then once she lied again she dug even deeper holes for herself until the lying just became like the truth to her. She then said that if she was me, she could & never would allow me back into her life because what she did was just so horrible. At that point she said excuse me and ran upstairs to our small bathroom. I got up and heard her retching in there. I went back downstairs and waited. Up to that point she had done all the talking. I had not said one single word.

She finally came back downstairs and apologized for the delay. She began to talk again and told me that she had been visiting marriage help forums and had printed out loads of material she read every day. She reached for her purse, opened it, and pulled out some paperwork she printed from a site she visited called “Surviving Infidelity”. She began to read from the paper and started to really sob again. She said the title to the article was “Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners”, and began to read from it. I had already seen the item from the sites I found on my tracking software so I calmly put my hand on the paper and said I was glad she was getting help but I wanted to hear her words, not someone else’s.

She put down the paper, which was now soaked with tears and began to tell me that she knew she was the only one at fault and that it was totally up to her to convince me that she was worthy of being my wife again. She continued by saying that she would do whatever it took to try and fix what she had tried to, or did destroy. She then said that she understood that it was all up to her and that I had to do nothing except find it in my heart to allow her to try and convince me that she could and would become a loyal and faithful wife again. She said that she has an appointment this Thursday to get tested and will give me the results as soon as she gets them. She really broke down then and sobbed that she loved me, has always loved me and that there will never, ever be another affair with anyone again. She then excused herself again and went upstairs and I heard the ugly sounds of her retching again.

It went on like that for about another hour, just her talking, apologizing for the 100th time, and telling me that it still would never be enough. I began to get redundancy overload and finally spoke up. I told her that she wasn’t going to like hearing this, but I still wasn’t sure I believed her and wasn’t sure if I ever could again. I let it all out, the hurt, betrayal, scummy feelings I had for what she did and how she did it. How I felt she was only in our marriage for the security and that I was just a doormat for her and on and on….

BTW, I did all this in a low controlled voice, never sounding threatening to her. I then began to go over my list of conditions. She just sat there and took it all in without saying a word and waiting until I was completely finished. She then reiterated that she wasn’t me, so she couldn’t even begin to understand the pain and hurt I was feeling. She said that all she wanted was a chance to show me, that she wanted only me; and would do whatever it took, for however long, to convince me of it.

I told her it was getting late and I was getting tired. I said that I appreciated what she had said, and that I would think about it and we would talk some more soon. I escorted her to the door and asked if she was OK to drive, or if she wanted me to take her back to her girlfriends. She told me she was shaken, but OK and she would be careful and drive herself. She then told me that even though I wouldn’t believe it now, she loved me and hoped she would hear from me soon. She waked out and I closed and locked the door.

I’m not exactly sure how I feel about the whole meeting at this point. That’s going to take some time to fully digest. I can tell you this though, although she did have an LTA under my nose, I still think I can read her pretty well when she’s talking to me face to face. When she talked tonight, she never lowered her eyes and looked straight into mine. She also never paused or sounded like what she had to say was rehearsed or contrived. It absolutely sounded spontaneous and coming from deep with-in her. In other words, I believe she was being sincere and telling me the truth. It might be the truth as _“she”_ sees it, but still the truth.

As I said, I’m still processing all of it. My idea is to back away from it completely for a few days and try not to think about it much. Then, I’m going to take my time to go over every bit of it in my mind before I contact her again. Where I go from there...I don't really know yet.

Well…. that's it. Once again, please let me know what you think.

And thanks again for listening.

John


----------



## aug

DoormatNoMore53 said:


> And thanks again for listening.
> 
> John


Thanks for the detailed update.

Take your time in making any decision on reconciliation or divorce. There's no hurry (that I can see). You have all the time you need.


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## Almostrecovered

well you got what a lot of the betrayed don't get, which hopefully is a sincere apology and desire to atone.

Thus you are at a stage where you can forgive. (forgive does not mean accept however)

But the real question is whether or not you wish to R or D.

If you D at least you have some real closure that many who D don't get.

If you R then you appear to have what it takes- a spouse willing to work on helping you and your pain.


That question I can't answer for you. That is your decision. And again you are wise for considering your options before jumping into a decision. I don't wish I was in your shoes, that's a real hard place to be put in. An affair that long is a really hard thing to get over. My wife's was only a few weeks. The only real mitigating factor at play here is that fact that she probably more prepared to deal with the consequences than any cheating spouse that I have seen on this board to date (based on her actions and words of your most recent conversation). If she wasn't that willing then I wouldn't even consider R. Thus you are in a real tough spot and I don't envy you. 

Whatever you choose to do take it slow, you can always change your mind if it is not playing out the way you want it to. You have the power right now and you are in control (that must feel good for a change, eh?). If you decide to D you can always stop the procedure before it's final. If you decide to R and it just isn't working you can always know you tried and start moving towards D.

whatever you choose I will support your decision and help you in any way that I can, good luck


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## Shaggy

John,

I do wonder, other than getting caught and her admitting it. 

What is she doing or changing so that she doesn't feel the need and desire to cheat again. 

She went to a lot of effort here. So what is to be done to end her cheating?


----------



## DoormatNoMore53

OK guys, I've been thinking all weekend about this and this is where my mindset is, (and I don't think it's gonna change anytime soon). I have decided that WW is just running another f*cking game on me. While she seems to be doing the right things, I've come to this conclusion due to analyzing everything that's happened through this whole sh!tty mess up to now. Here are my thoughts in no particular order:

1. This was not a one time fling. It was an LTA of the worst kind.
2. She lied after D not once or twice but dozens of times.
3. She used me and my son as pawns in the affair to get sympathy from the OM and keep it going.
4. She had encounters with the OM while we were on vacation at our relatives condo in Florida, and while I was recovering from two major surgeries.
5. She only became truly remorseful after she knew the A was over and completely dead and she got scared she would lose her meal ticket.
6. She all of a sudden has this miracle epiphany that I'm the one she wants and needs after ten years of rejection and complete apathy? Yea right, WTF?????
7. Shes a champion at the lying game. If they gave out black belts for lying she would be a grand master. So how could I ever believe her again?
8. I'm only 58 and really beginning to feel good physically for the first time in 13 years. Do I really want to invest up to five years on what may be a lost cause anyway? I may be dead by then.
9. She played the Oh, I'm sick card on me this weekend to try and shift sympathy her way. I then find her on F!ckbook telling her fiends that she's full from eating a great dinner at her friends house & now their enjoying a great little wine together.
10. I now think the whole meeting thing on Thursday was a complete set up, cooked up by her and her girlfriend. Great, now I'm even more pissed and have even less respect for the lying, cheating B!tch!

So that's my current mindset. While I was hoping there may be a small chance for R, I now am convinced that was a fantasy I cooked up in my mind to try and stave off what looks like to be a really hard road ahead. I now realize that the fantasy road would be even harder, especially if it turned out to be false R. I've had enough pain to last a lifetime.

BTW, I haven't yet done anything stupid because if this revelation, (which amazes even me, as I haven't been the sharpest tool in the shed lately). I intend to do what I originally said last week, lay low, keep collecting evidence and coordinate with my lawyer friend. I will be nice, cordial, even sweet at times. However, I will also follow the 180 to a tee and be be uninterested, and not chase, beg, plead or implore for anything. I will not lower myself by consenting to sex even if her tests results come back perfect. I WILL begin secretly planning my new life without her.

I'm really going to need your help through this guys. I appreciate everything you've done so far and I know I've been a pain in the ass sometimes. I also can't guarantee that I won't be one in the future as this thing gets hairy. I guess what I'm asking is to keep getting your support. It's going to be even more critical for me to be here on TAM as this all unfolds in the coming months.

Anyway, thanks for listening again,
John


----------



## Tall Average Guy

DoormatNoMore53 said:


> OK guys, I've been thinking all weekend about this and this is where my mindset is, (and I don't think it's gonna change anytime soon). I have decided that WW is just running another f*cking game on me. While she seems to be doing the right things, I've come to this conclusion due to analyzing everything that's happened through this whole sh!tty mess up to now. Here are my thoughts in no particular order:
> 
> 1. This was not a one time fling. It was an LTA of the worst kind.
> 2. She lied after D not once or twice but dozens of times.
> 3. She used me and my son as pawns in the affair to get sympathy from the OM and keep it going.
> 4. She had encounters with the OM while we were on vacation at our relatives condo in Florida, and while I was recovering from two major surgeries.
> 5. She only became truly remorseful after she knew the A was over and completely dead and she got scared she would lose her meal ticket.
> 6. She all of a sudden has this miracle epiphany that I'm the one she wants and needs after ten years of rejection and complete apathy? Yea right, WTF?????
> 7. Shes a champion at the lying game. If they gave out black belts for lying she would be a grand master. So how could I ever believe her again?
> 8. I'm only 58 and really beginning to feel good physically for the first time in 13 years. Do I really want to invest up to five years on what may be a lost cause anyway? I may be dead by then.
> 9. She played the Oh, I'm sick card on me this weekend to try and shift sympathy her way. I then find her on F!ckbook telling her fiends that she's full from eating a great dinner at her friends house & now their enjoying a great little wine together.
> 10. I now think the whole meeting thing on Thursday was a complete set up, cooked up by her and her girlfriend. Great, now I'm even more pissed and have even less respect for the lying, cheating B!tch!
> 
> So that's my current mindset. While I was hoping there may be a small chance for R, I now am convinced that was a fantasy I cooked up in my mind to try and stave off what looks like to be a really hard road ahead. I now realize that the fantasy road would be even harder, especially if it turned out to be false R. I've had enough pain to last a lifetime.
> 
> BTW, I haven't yet done anything stupid because if this revelation, (which amazes even me, as I haven't been the sharpest tool in the shed lately). I intend to do what I originally said last week, lay low, keep collecting evidence and coordinate with my lawyer friend. I will be nice, cordial, even sweet at times. However, I will also follow the 180 to a tee and be be uninterested, and not chase, beg, plead or implore for anything. I will not lower myself by consenting to sex even if her tests results come back perfect. I WILL begin secretly planning my new life without her.
> 
> I'm really going to need your help through this guys. I appreciate everything you've done so far and I know I've been a pain in the ass sometimes. I also can't guarantee that I won't be one in the future as this thing gets hairy. I guess what I'm asking is to keep getting your support. It's going to be even more critical for me to be here on TAM as this all unfolds in the coming months.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for listening again,
> John


A few thoughts:

1) Take your time and remain calm. It will help you avoid backing yourself into a corner.
2) You can always stop a divorce and change your mind. Nothing wrong with moving forward and letting her show by her actions that your analysis is no longer true.
3) Sorry you are here, and have come to this point. It must be very painful. Best of luck.
4) Get some excercise. Best thing for you.


----------



## aug

Your post appears well thought out. 

You're closest to your situation than we are, so your read and intuition mean more.

A thought occurred to me that she had over a decade of developing her deceiving mindset. 

Probably makes sense now when I think about her confession -- it came too quick and too full from someone who was in a deep relationship with her lover.


I agree with Tall Average Guy. Take your time as you plan and ponder on your situation. 

Exercise and weights are important. But dont over do it. Slowly build up your tolerance, and dont hestitate to back off to adapt before increasing the level.


While you're planning, may I suggest that you update your will? I like to think there's no reward for all that betrayal of the last 12 years.


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## Eli-Zor

aug said:


> Your post appears well thought out.
> 
> You're closest to your situation than we are, so your read and intuition mean more.
> 
> *A thought occurred to me that she had over a decade of developing her deceiving mindset. *
> 
> Probably makes sense now when *I think about her confession -- it came too quick and too full from someone who was in a deep relationship with her lover.*
> 
> 
> I agree with Tall Average Guy. Take your time as you plan and ponder on your situation.
> 
> Exercise and weights are important. But dont over do it. Slowly build up your tolerance, and dont hestitate to back off to adapt before increasing the level.
> 
> 
> While you're planning, may I suggest that you update your will? I like to think there's no reward for all that betrayal of the last 12 years.



Agree


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## Eli-Zor

A way to confirm if she is telling the truth is to let her know you are arranging a polygraph at a date of your choice and she has to come clean on everything. 

Create a mail with questions you want answered and give them to her to write the answers. Often a wayward will write more than they will say if they are face to face. 

I would also mention that she seem less than remorseful , posting on facebook and having dinner with friends sounds like she is have a good time. 

Her friends are likely to have known and supported her affair, time she dropped them . Pose it as one of the questions.


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## morituri

DoormatNoMore53 View Post said:


> She all of a sudden has this miracle epiphany that I'm the one she wants and needs *after ten years of rejection and complete apathy?* Yea right, WTF?????


THIS has got to be one of the toughest things to overcome. You wanted to have sex with her and she rejected you for many years. I don't blame you for being skeptical about her 'epiphany'. It would have been more believable if she had chosen to come forward on her own and confessed that she had been unfaithful to you. But she didn't, did she? She only confessed after you found out about it and she saw your determination to end the marriage. 

Also, the affair showed no signs of having ended and if you had not found out about it, it could have continued going on for years and years without end.

You must ultimately make a life changing decision that you can live with for the rest of your life and that can bring you much needed peace of mind. Choose wisely.


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## DoormatNoMore53

Eli-Zor said:


> A way to confirm if she is telling the truth is to let her know you are arranging a polygraph at a date of your choice and she has to come clean on everything.


How would I do this? I Googled "polygraph tests" in my area and it came up with many entries. How would I know who to use. I do have a friend that's a PI, I wounder if he could help me find a good one?



Eli-Zor said:


> Create a mail with questions you want answered and give them to her to write the answers. Often a wayward will write more than they will say if they are face to face.


This is how we've been communicating of late. I have sent her a few lists of questions. They've all come back with the same sort of answers like in our face to face meeting. I think she's getting her friend to help her. 



Eli-Zor said:


> I would also mention that she seem less than remorseful , posting on facebook and having dinner with friends sounds like she is have a good time.


Yeah, that was a deal breaker in my book. She says she knows how I feel and wants to do the right things, and then this? Uh uh, "homey don't play that way" 



Eli-Zor said:


> Her friends are likely to have known and supported her affair, time she dropped them . Pose it as one of the questions.


Will do.


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## DoormatNoMore53

morituri said:


> I don't blame you for being skeptical about her 'epiphany'. It would have been more believable if she had chosen to come forward on her own and confessed that she had been unfaithful to you. But she didn't, did she? She only confessed after you found out about it and she saw your determination to end the marriage.


This is exactly why I feel the way I do now and why I've come to this decision after much thought. It was too f*cking late in my book to be believable.



morituri said:


> Also, the affair showed no signs of having ended and if you had not found out about it, it could have continued going on for years and years without end.


Yup, and it's one of many reasons why I want to throw up every time I even think of R with her.



morituri said:


> You must ultimately make a life changing decision that you can live with for the rest of your life and that can bring you much needed peace of mind. Choose wisely.


I'm trying morituri, I'm trying


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## DoormatNoMore53

aug said:


> Your post appears well thought out.
> 
> A thought occurred to me that she had over a decade of developing her deceiving mindset.
> 
> Probably makes sense now when I think about her confession -- it came too quick and too full from someone who was in a deep relationship with her lover.


Thank you, exactly my point aug!




aug said:


> Exercise and weights are important. But dont over do it. Slowly build up your tolerance, and dont hestitate to back off to adapt before increasing the level.


Weights are a little hard right now due to my back still not being 100%. I am doing a lot of aqua therapy though which is really helping with the back and also with stress.


While you're planning, may I suggest that you update your will? I like to think there's no reward for all that betrayal of the last 12 years.[/QUOTE]

Never even thought about it, Great idea, thanks again aug.


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## DoormatNoMore53

Where the hell is Shaggy? I really wanted his take on this too. Guess he's abandoned me because I'm such an idiot to believe her bullsh!t again. Don't really blame him either.


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## morituri

For all we know he just may be busy doing some Holiday shopping. Don't be shy, send him (Shaggy) a PM.


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## DoormatNoMore53

Man I'm feeling really down and sh!tty right now. Don't get me wrong, I so appreciate all you guys, (morituri, Eli-Zor, aug, Almostrecovered, Tall Average Guy), if I missed anyone, sorry didn't mean to. You guys are all life savers and I don't know how I would have gotten this far without you all.

This is going to sound weird, (and I SWEAR I'm hetero sexual), but I really miss Shaggy and his input.

I sent him a PM, but no response. Thinking I may have pissed him off with my wavering. 

Shaggy, if you read this, sorry man. I don't blame you a bit. I deserved it.


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## Shaggy

Hi, I didn't leave, I just was elsewhere in the world the last coupe of days.

Look, if anything time is on your side. Don't be rushed by you or her.

You had a bad couple of days where you are angry and questioning things. That's gonna happen no matter what you do. The only ones who don't question their choices are madmen.

So chill, knowing you are acting sanely.

...

Now expect her to push boundaries and see where she an play you. She's been able to cake eat for years very very successfully. So she is going to do it without even thinking about it. Case in point the fb posting and the story she told you. My advice is to call her on it up frnt everytime, not to call her out and punish her but instead to show her you are now watching and the days of you givng her the benefit of the doubt and automatic support are gone.

When you see her doing it tell her, "look, I know theres more behind why your feleling sick, and clearly frm your fb post it was because you ate and drank too much. Sounds like you had yourself a great time, now you are paying the price for it, and you are expecting y sympathy. Well this is the new world you've made, where you made you bed, you get to sleep in it."

I also suggest anytime you cach even a white lie, to call her out with "I thought you said you've chosen to be fully transparent and working on the marriage. So what up with XXXX?"

Or even a shorter "look, you've chosen to be here. If you are not 100% sure, then there is the door."

....

Now you must demand full transparency on where she is and what she's doing. I also think her frreedom to be hanging with this frend who kno doubt knew about the cheating needs to be pulled back a lot.

Get that polygraph and include questions about the friends and knowing about the affair. Anyone who knew must go from her life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

Oh, and as for sex don't force yourself, but I think you need to reclaim that right of marriage when/if her results come back clean. I am not talking about a once so you can say you did it me event either. You need to get back to having sex with her regularly as a way to work on the relationship and as a test of R.

She fed you a pile of BS for years about her not beng sexual. You demanding regular sex and not accepting any more lies about her not beng sexual when clearly she is, shows her that you are setting the bar for her in the R.

Get some magic pills you find you need them, but get busy.

If she is reluctant or feeds you a series of excuses why she can't, then again call her on it. Don't scream or get angry, just be honest and tell her that clearly she isn't really in R, she just wants it to slide back into the broken relationship it was. Tell her that marriage and that husband are gone. This is the new guy and the new relationship terms, and she is either fully in or she can leave. You aren't negotiating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DoormatNoMore53

Oh man Shag thanks! I didn't want my whining to sound like a bromance or something but you've never pulled any punches with me and I really need that right now.

Great advice and I'll begin acting on it coyly right away. Especially the poly. MY PI gave me a couple of choices on where to get it done right and at a discount (his). Any suggestions on how I should go about telling her I want to have the poly done?

Thanks again man. I appreciate it.


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## aug

DoormatNoMore53 said:


> Oh man Shag thanks! I didn't want my whining to sound like a bromance or something but you've never pulled any punches with me and I really need that right now.
> 
> Great advice and I'll begin acting on it coyly right away. Especially the poly. MY PI gave me a couple of choices on where to get it done right and at a discount (his). *Any suggestions on how I should go about telling her I want to have the poly done?
> *
> Thanks again man. I appreciate it.



Dont tell her in advance. She's a skillful liar so she'll be prepared psychologically. Also it looks like she researches (for ex, her performance of remorsefulness), so she'll research how to beat the poly.

Maybe, ask her to meet somewhere, then drive her to the poly and spring it on her. This way she wont be prepared. Unless, of course, she's reading this thread.


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## lordmayhem

I was wondering what happened to this thread, because I rarely venture into the private members area, totally missed all the updates. :facepalm:

I too would be suspicious about her sudden epiphany. Considering this was a 3 year long LTA (that you know of), she was deeply invested in this OM. There would be a long withdrawal period for her. I forgot what the formula was, something like a week of withdrawal for every 2 months the affair was on or something like that. The sudden remorse just seems a bit too neat if you get my drift. 

Always be aware and look out for any fishing. An LTA lasting this long is an addiction thats very difficult to break, and at least one of the affair partners is going to fish for renewed contact. It can be as simple as "How are you?", "Are you alright?", "Miss you", etc, etc. The OM in my case tried to fish twice, and it was only a 7 month long EA. I don't know if you've read any other infidelity support sites, especially the ones that forums for waywards like at SI or Loveshack, the waywards will describe how extremely difficult to maintain NC. I read one story at Loveshack where the poster (wheelright), kept posting how she kept breaking NC off and on for 7 months, and she was still so obsessed with him even after OM threw her under the bus and went NC with her. She STILL longed for him and 1.5 years laters still pined for OM. I guess her husband finally had enough and they divorced.

Also, what do you know about your WWs friends? Are they toxic? Did they have full knowledge of her affair? Did they enable her? I don't remember you saying she moved back home and last I read she was staying at a girlfriends house. If this is so, then you have no idea if she has maintained NC because even if you have monitoring software on her phone, her friend has a phone and computer for her to use for any secret email accounts that she may have.

Then there's those secret cell phones that they can get. HurtinginTN knows about those. He busted his WW using a secret cell phone with a VAR, after the first 1 was discovered and he destroyed it, she went and got another one and to avoid the VAR, she started taking long walks to contact OM. Be aware that OM can have a secret cell phone too to avoid his BW's monitoring. So beware the pay as you go phones.

This is why the polygraph is a good idea. One good yes or no question is "Have you contacted or has OM contacted you since the affair was discovered?" The questions for the poly have to be yes or no questions, not opinionated questions, otherwise it will throw the poly off. A good poly examiner will tell you that.

The whole "playing sick" card, then yucking it up on facebook to her friends would indeed make me skeptical as to her true intentions for R also.


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## Almostrecovered

DoormatNoMore53 said:


> This is going to sound weird, (and I SWEAR I'm hetero sexual), but I really miss Shaggy and his input.


----------



## Shaggy

Almostrecovered said:


>


Oh man, this is getting weird.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

DoormatNoMore53 said:


> Any suggestions on how I should go about telling her I want to have the poly done?


Yeah, tell her you want her to take a poly to help you rebuilds some trust in her and tghen schedule one and the her to it.

Stop playing games, stop over thinking. On all things around the affair, sex, the possible divorce: Decide what you want to do k listen to your gut, but don't react in the heat of the moment, AND then tell her your decision.

Be alpha here, this is a new relationship you are now in. A new dynamic is being set. She is there becase she chose to be after you had her leave. She asked to come back. You need to set the bar, dont accept her sliding back into the old dynamic. When she pushes back on you, don't play games, just remind her that she asked to R, and you are expecting her to step up to the job.

Remember R doesn't mean a few tears and then back to the old marriage. R means a new marriage with new openness and work to make it better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

Another thing.. You really need to be vigilant about watching for fishing. She may have weak moments or the OM might want to try and hook up again.

Don't get paranoid, but do have ways of catching it. I assume she has agreed to tell you when he does try to contact her, and that she will share the contact info with you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem

With the OMW being an alcoholic and in a drunken stupor a lot, I really wouldn't have any confidence in her ability to keep an eye on the affair from her end.


----------



## aug

I still think with the poly, you should not tell your wife ahead of time. If you do, she'll be prepared to sabotage the test which she can do. A person who has been lying for so many years has adapted and the falsehood would be normal.


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## Eli-Zor

This does not apply to the poly questions:

Any questions you ask should be answered with you in the room, make some coffee while she scribes the answers . Especially since you suspect she has a friend helping her. Pose the questions so most of the answers are short. 

Ask easy and hard ones and insist she sits at the table with you to answer them in writing. You need to put her on the back foot. 

Start off by saying that trickle truth, lies, covering up and not committing fully to the relationship that includes answering all questions in your presence with total honesty. 



If you so choose to go the is route here are a few sample Q's. 



> Did you tell OM you loved him? ( don't use his name as it sounds to nice call him F&*%buddy or something similar)
> 
> Did he tell you he loved you?
> 
> Did you say ever you love me and mean it?
> 
> Why do you think he dumped you?
> 
> Did you purposefully starve me of intimacy?
> 
> Why did you deprive me of an intimate loving fulfilling sexual relationship when you were purposefully having sex with your FBuddy?
> 
> Name all your friends who knew of the affair before I found out?
> 
> Are you lying to me or by not telling me everything lying by default?
> 
> Do you love me?
> 
> To let you know I will be scheduling a polygraph to verify that you have been telling the truth in all matters of the affair.


I took these from a BS who was in a similar position, his wayward chose to threw a tantrum and refused to answer , he filed , a couple of days later she promised to answer everything truthfully. He got his answers but had already decided never to take her back.

Should you do this you have to be calm, poker faced , don't react to her, don't let her walk off or delay the answering. You cannot force her to answer immediately but it will give you the option to file or not . This raises the stakes on her, you comment going forward would be her inability to accept responsibility for the affair , help you recover or tel the truth. 

I suspect your wife will decline and want to come back after talking to her friend.


----------



## Eli-Zor

This does not apply to the poly questions:

Any questions you ask should be answered with you in the room, make some coffee while she scribes the answers . Especially since you suspect she has a friend helping her. Pose the questions so most of the answers are short. 

Ask easy and hard ones and insist she sits at the table with you to answer them in writing. You need to put her on the back foot. 

Start off by saying that trickle truth, lies, covering up and not committing fully to the relationship that includes answering all questions in your presence with total honesty. 



If you so choose to go this route here are a few sample Q's. 



> Did you tell OM you loved him? ( don't use his name as it sounds to nice call him F&*%b---y or something similar)
> 
> Did he tell you he loved you?
> 
> Did you say you love me and mean it?
> 
> Why do you think he dumped you?
> 
> Did you purposefully starve me of intimacy?
> 
> Why did you deprive me of an intimate loving fulfilling sexual relationship when you were purposefully having sex with your FB?
> 
> Name all your friends who knew of the affair before I found out?
> 
> Are you lying to me or by not telling me everything lying by default?
> 
> Do you love me?
> 
> To let you know I will be scheduling a polygraph to verify that you have been telling the truth in all matters of the affair.


I took these from a BS who was in a similar position, his wayward chose to throw a tantrum and refused to answer , he filed , a couple of days later she promised to answer everything truthfully. He got his answers but had already decided never to take her back.

Should you do this you have to be calm, poker faced , don't react to her, don't let her walk off or delay the answering. You cannot force her to answer immediately but it will give you the option to file or not . This raises the stakes on her, mention "to help you and the marriage recover depends on her ability and willingness to accept responsibility for the affair and be truthful". 

I suspect your wife will decline and want to come back after talking to her friend.


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## Thor

Do you want to R? If not, why bother with all the other crap. Just collect whatever intel your lawyer says is helpful to your case, and then file for D.


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## DoormatNoMore53

Very funny on the Scooby-Doo stuff AR! You really are a Sh!thead :lol::lol::lol:


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## DoormatNoMore53

OK, I'm digesting all the great advice guys thanks.

I have a few questions just for now until I go through all these posts and get them right in my mind.

1. Should I get WW to come back home so I can have full control over monitoring her? I think I know how to accomplish this without making it look desperate on my part.

2. I have an idea on how to do the poly and still have it be sort of spontaneous instead of giving her time to calculate (plan) her answers. How about if I set it up & take her to lunch that day, I'll explain to her during lunch that I want a poly to confirm she's on the level and that's it's a condition for me even considering R. I really think I can make this fly. What say you on this guys?

3. FYI, just so everyone knows. I have finished the disillusionment paper work my my lawyer. It's set up only to go into force if I give him the go ahead. I'm not jumping the gun here, I just wanted to be prepared ahead of time should it come to this.


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## DoormatNoMore53

Thor said:


> Do you want to R? If not, why bother with all the other crap. Just collect whatever intel your lawyer says is helpful to your case, and then file for D.


I don't know what I want from one day to the next Thor. I'm only a little over 4 weeks out from d-day. I'm trying to take the advice of others here and not rush into anything but rather try and think it through calmly and clearly. I may not R, but as others have said, I have the upper hand now and it feels sorta good to finally be in that position. I'm trying hard to realize that time is on my side here and I don't have to rush into anything. Hope that answers your question.


----------



## Eli-Zor

DoormatNoMore53 said:


> OK, I'm digesting all the great advice guys thanks.
> 
> I have a few questions just for now until I go through all these posts and get them right in my mind.
> 
> 1. Should I get WW to come back home so I can have full control over monitoring her? I think I know how to accomplish this without making it look desperate on my part.
> 
> 2. I have an idea on how to do the poly and still have it be sort of spontaneous instead of giving her time to calculate (plan) her answers. How about if I set it up & take her to lunch that day, I'll explain to her during lunch that I want a poly to confirm she's on the level and that's it's a condition for me even considering R. I really think I can make this fly. What say you on this guys?
> 
> 3. FYI, just so everyone knows. I have finished the disillusionment paper work my my lawyer. It's set up only to go into force if I give him the go ahead. I'm not jumping the gun here, I just wanted to be prepared ahead of time should it come to this.



1. Do you think your wife has been transparent and honest enough to earn the right to be in the same house? Has she asked you to return ? The logic of her coming back home is she is willing to do what it takes to rebuild the marriage. If she has not asked , you can pose the question but ....there is always a but, she has to commit to all your requirements and marriage boundaries . Full transparency , dropping affair enabling friends , hand written NC letter, a letter of apology to your parents and hers , active ongoing evidence she is working on restoring the marriage including sexual intimacy , she identifies and disposes of all clothes , gifts , jewellery and other items she wore for the OM . These are but a few items to mention if she says yes.

2. If you spring it on her have the words correct and in prior conversations let her know you seek all the truth and want it verified. You know your wife , only you can tell how she will react.

3. Yes keep this ready , if you have to enact do not say anything until she is served.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

I think since you aren't going straight to D, then she should be home.

As for the polygraph, it isn't something that you study for, do there really isn't a need to surprise her, the only surprises arethe exact questions she is asked.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

Yes, do remember to purge all things commented to the OM : clothes, lingere, gifts, as well as places they went together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

Shaggy said:


> I think since you aren't going straight to D, then she should be home.
> 
> As for the polygraph, it isn't something that you study for, do there really isn't a need to surprise her, the only surprises arethe exact questions she is asked.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Actually if you google beating a lie detector there are many sites that have tips on how to beat them
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DoormatNoMore53

Shaggy said:


> I think since you aren't going straight to D, then she should be home.
> 
> As for the polygraph, it isn't something that you study for, do there really isn't a need to surprise her, the only surprises are the exact questions she is asked.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree that she should be home if only (for the time being) so I can monitor her more closely. Also, so I can break the influence her friend has on her. This btw, will be just one condition of her coming back home. NC with her friend if she's serious about any chance of R.

2. All of the poly sites I visited state evidence that a poly is almost impossible to beat. They say they are 95% accurate. Of course if this was my line of business, I would say whatever to protect it's integrity too.  However, my cop friend swears he has never seen anyone beat a poly whether it be with drugs or whatever. WW is a professional liar, but even I don't think she's good enough to do this. I also think that if they could be beat that easily using some scheme on the Internet, drugs or whatever, there would be a lot more stuff out there about it in the traditional media and online. I just don't see any evidence of that being the case.


----------



## DoormatNoMore53

Eli-Zor said:


> 1. Do you think your wife has been transparent and honest enough to earn the right to be in the same house? Has she asked you to return ? The logic of her coming back home is she is willing to do what it takes to rebuild the marriage. If she has not asked , you can pose the question but ....there is always a but, she has to commit to all your requirements and marriage boundaries . Full transparency , dropping affair enabling friends , hand written NC letter, a letter of apology to your parents and hers , active ongoing evidence she is working on restoring the marriage including sexual intimacy , she identifies and disposes of all clothes , gifts , jewellery and other items she wore for the OM . These are but a few items to mention if she says yes.
> 
> 2. If you spring it on her have the words correct and in prior conversations let her know you seek all the truth and want it verified. You know your wife , only you can tell how she will react.
> 
> 3. Yes keep this ready , if you have to enact do not say anything until she is served.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you Eli - :iagree::iagree: :iagree:


----------



## DoormatNoMore53

Last but not least. I'm still digesting all of this info and advice. Once I have it straight, I'm going to develop a game plan. WW will be back in the house for Xmas eve and day. Don't know if I can have everything ready by then and I don't want to rush it. More realistic time frame would most likely be the week between Xmas & New Years. Would like her back here b/4 NY eve so I can keep a close eye on her.


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## Shaggy

Why is it taking so long to bring her home? Get her bak home tomorrow night.

Remember to drop vars in rooms around the house to pick up calls she makes during the day.

Oh, if she says she has plans or ommitments and has to be places, call her on it.either she really is fully making you her priority or she isn't and you can move on,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## aug

DoormatNoMore53 said:


> ...
> 
> 2. All of the poly sites I visited state evidence that a poly is almost impossible to beat. They say they are 95% accurate. Of course if this was my line of business, I would say whatever to protect it's integrity too.  However, my cop friend swears he has never seen anyone beat a poly whether it be with drugs or whatever. WW is a professional liar, but even I don't think she's good enough to do this. I also think that if they could be beat that easily using some scheme on the Internet, drugs or whatever, there would be a lot more stuff out there about it in the traditional media and online. I just don't see any evidence of that being the case.


Here you go: beating the polygraph - Google Search

Some links are:
Learn How to Pass (or Beat) a Polygraph Test | AntiPolygraph.org
How to Cheat a Polygraph Test (Lie Detector) (with pictures) - wikiHow
Top 10 Tips for Beating a Lie Detector


----------



## DoormatNoMore53

FYI,

*Great News!!!! The test results came back and I have them in my hands. EVERYTHING is 100% NEGATIVE!!!!! YEA!!!!!*:


----------



## Almostrecovered

DoormatNoMore53 said:


> I agree that she should be home if only (for the time being) so I can monitor her more closely. Also, so I can break the influence her friend has on her. This btw, will be just one condition of her coming back home. NC with her friend if she's serious about any chance of R.
> 
> 2. All of the poly sites I visited state evidence that a poly is almost impossible to beat. They say they are 95% accurate. Of course if this was my line of business, I would say whatever to protect it's integrity too.  However, my cop friend swears he has never seen anyone beat a poly whether it be with drugs or whatever. WW is a professional liar, but even I don't think she's good enough to do this. I also think that if they could be beat that easily using some scheme on the Internet, drugs or whatever, there would be a lot more stuff out there about it in the traditional media and online. I just don't see any evidence of that being the case.


well duh, of course a place that wants to sell polygraph testing will have their own stats

the failure rate is closer to 15%

The Straight Dope: How accurate are lie-detector tests?


also, some people if they train themselves properly and practice can pass a lie detector, it's all about the control questions


----------



## DoormatNoMore53

Shaggy said:


> Why is it taking so long to bring her home? Get her bak home tomorrow night.
> 
> Remember to drop vars in rooms around the house to pick up calls she makes during the day.
> 
> Oh, if she says she has plans or ommitments and has to be places, call her on it.either she really is fully making you her priority or she isn't and you can move on,
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're right! I've got my conditions completed and contacted her by phone. She should be back home tonight. I have vars in the family room where she talks on her phone and uses her computer. Also in the kitchen and "Her" dressing room.

Let's see how she reacts now. I will not ask for and act like I need and/or want anything, e.g., will not make any first moves.

I have to honest guys, I'm sh!tting my pants a little here in anticipation. However, I now I can be strong and handle it.

Additional updates to come soon.


----------



## Almostrecovered

good to hear you dont have herpes


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## DoormatNoMore53

Almostrecovered said:


> good to hear you dont have herpes


 :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## Shaggy

John,

Don't play games. None at all. Tell her what you want need and expect. Wen she doesn't deliver tell her she isn't delivering.

Honestly she keeps surprising me with how much she is finally doing right here, BUT the next step is to see if her words match her actions.

Make sure you leave the house to give her time to talk on the phone etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DoormatNoMore53

Shaggy said:


> John,
> 
> Don't play games. None at all. Tell her what you want need and expect. Wen she doesn't deliver tell her she isn't delivering.
> 
> Honestly she keeps surprising me with how much she is finally doing right here, BUT the next step is to see if her words match her actions.
> 
> Make sure you leave the house to give her time to talk on the phone etc.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Shag, believe me I'm not playing games. I've been totally straight forward with her and not holding back. I've also been leaving the house to do Xmas shopping, so I'll be checking the vars and keeping track of her phone and computer. I realize that She's the one who'll have to make the moves to convince me, AND TRUST ME, it's gonna take a hell of a lot of doing on her part.* NO MORE BULLSH!T!* I'm not going to be nasty, but I'm also not going to just believe her sh!t anymore either. I've told her this in no uncertain terms.

BTW, we have an MC session set up for 1/6. I am still seeing my IC every other day.

Sorry for the delay in posting. I haven't done anything for Xmas and I'm trying to do it all now. Not sure when I'll be back but I'll try and keep you all updated on any new stuff.

*MERRY CHRISTMAS ALL!!!!!*


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## Shaggy

Buy her that extra wild lingere you've always wanted her to wear She will need new stuff after throwing out her current stuff and you might as well start off the new marriage sex the way you want it to be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

Any updates?


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## DoormatNoMore53

Hey Guys!

Hope you all had a great Christmas.

Sorry for not updating in awhile, it's been a wild few days to say the least. WW and I have been doing the horizontal mambo every day, sometimes 3 or 4 times. I realize that it's HB but it sure has been fun!  Don't want this to turn into tmi, but I've been rolling out some new stuff every other time we do it. My back and hip have been fine and WW has been totally receptive to all of it and I know she's enjoying it due to all the BIG O's she's having.

BTW, there's been no talk of _"we're OK now", "we're now in R", "no I love you's"_ (from me anyway), or any other I'm caving crap from me, i.e., I'm keeping a level head. One of the coolest parts of all this is that we've been talking for hours after, and the talks have really been interesting and enlightening. I'm finding out stuff about WW that I never knew before, I mean all the way back to her childhood. I think it'll be of great use in IC and MC. WW also always ends our sessions with an _"I'm sorry for what I did and I'm so grateful for the chance to prove to you that I want only you"_. She's also been remorseful as hell during our talks. I realize that this HB will probably not last, but right now I don't care. I'm just enjoying the ride (pardon the bad pun), especially because of the 10 year drought.

I still don't know how this is going to end up but my stress level is WAY down with all the sex, AND the fact that I really feel in control now. I'm still being vigilant in monitoring WW's computer and phone and there's been nothing to report there or from the 3 vars I have set up. I had a thought that the OM might try and do some fishing during Christmas but it didn't happen. Also, WW has agreed that her girlfriend was a negative factor and agreed to sever the relationship. Her GF was kind of pissed because she did offer WW a safe haven when she left. Oh well, too bad, that's GF's problem not mine.

Well that's it for now. Gonna go get some sleep, which BTW has been another extra bonus to all this.


----------



## DoormatNoMore53

Oops, one more thing. I was thinking of asking a mod to move this thread back to it's original location. There's no need to keep it private anymore as everything is out in the open.

Do you think they might do it, or would I come off as a _"pita"_ to them if I ask?


----------



## aug

DoormatNoMore53 said:


> Sorry for not updating in awhile, it's been a wild few days to say the least. WW and I have been doing the horizontal mambo every day, sometimes 3 or 4 times. I realize that it's HB but it sure has been fun!  Don't want this to turn into tmi, but I've been rolling out some new stuff every other time we do it. My back and hip have been fine and WW has been totally receptive to all of it and I know she's enjoying it due to all the BIG O's she's having.



Well, at least you know you and her are functional...


----------



## Chaparral

DoormatNoMore53 said:


> Oops, one more thing. I was thinking of asking a mod to move this thread back to it's original location. There's no need to keep it private anymore as everything is out in the open.
> 
> Do you think they might do it, or would I come off as a _"pita"_ to them if I ask?


You should get a lot more looks in CWI.


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## Eli-Zor

Its pleasing to read some good news. take each days as it comes, you will have good days, then some ups and downs. With time your marriage should improve if both of you work on it. 




> Also, WW has agreed that her girlfriend was a negative factor and agreed to sever the relationship. Her GF was kind of pissed because she did offer WW a safe haven when she left. Oh well, too bad, that's GF's problem not mine.


:iagree: Tough


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## DoormatNoMore53

aug said:


> Well, at least you know you and her are functional...


Thanks aug. Yeah it's nice to know that the old flag pole still works :lol:


----------



## DoormatNoMore53

Eli-Zor said:


> Its pleasing to read some good news. take each days as it comes, you will have good days, then some ups and downs. With time your marriage should improve if both of you work on it.


Thanks Eli, The sex is great don't get me wrong, but what's really amazing is that after we do it, we talk for hours and she opens up completely. She's never really gone this deep inside herself before. I mean I'm finding out sh!t that goes way back to her childhood that is really blowing my mind. Some of it's good and some really bad, but all that we can really use in IC & MC.

BTW, is this normal. I mean does a WW usually open up this much this early. I'm thinking it has something to do with the intimacy she's feeling during and after sex. Could this be it? :scratchhead:


----------



## DoormatNoMore53

FYI to all. I've sent a PM to amplexor asking him to move this thread back to CWI. Hope he agrees. Anyway, just wanted to let you all know.


----------



## morituri

DoormatNoMore53 said:


> Sorry for not updating in awhile, it's been a wild few days to say the least. WW and I have been doing the horizontal mambo every day, sometimes 3 or 4 times. I realize that it's HB but it sure has been fun! Don't want this to turn into tmi, but I've been rolling out some new stuff every other time we do it. My back and hip have been fine and WW has been totally receptive to all of it and I know she's enjoying it due to all the BIG O's she's having


I guess this should go without saying but you got too agreeable being in a sexless marriage for over a decade. Never again allow that to happen. So far you are doing a great job, keep it up (no pun intended ).




> Thanks Eli, The sex is great don't get me wrong, but what's really amazing is that after we do it, we talk for hours and she opens up completely. She's never really gone this deep inside herself before. I mean I'm finding out sh!t that goes way back to her childhood that is really blowing my mind. Some of it's good and some really bad, but all that we can really use in IC & MC.
> 
> BTW, is this normal. I mean does a WW usually open up this much this early. I'm thinking it has something to do with the intimacy she's feeling during and after sex. Could this be it? :scratchhead:


It's either you providing an emotional environment where she feels safe to open up and share her deepest thoughts and feelings with you or she may feel that by becoming totally transparent that she has the best chance of not losing you. Maybe it's a combination of both.


----------



## lordmayhem

DoormatNoMore53 said:


> Thanks Eli, The sex is great don't get me wrong, but what's really amazing is that after we do it, we talk for hours and she opens up completely. She's never really gone this deep inside herself before. I mean I'm finding out sh!t that goes way back to her childhood that is really blowing my mind. Some of it's good and some really bad, but all that we can really use in IC & MC.
> 
> BTW, is this normal. I mean does a WW usually open up this much this early. I'm thinking it has something to do with the intimacy she's feeling during and after sex. Could this be it? :scratchhead:


Yes, the physical intimacy from all that hysterical bonding is helping you and her re-connect. Just keep in mind that HB isn't always a sign that R will be successful, but it is a part of it.


----------



## DoormatNoMore53

morituri said:


> I guess this should go without saying but you got too agreeable being in a sexless marriage for over a decade. Never again allow that to happen. So far you are doing a great job, keep it up (no pun intended ).


Nope never will. I also realize that this current frequency is probably HB, but who cares right now. I'm gonna ride that horsey for as long as I can.  I'll deal with the slow down if and when it comes.





morituri said:


> It's either you providing an emotional environment where she feels safe to open up and share her deepest thoughts and feelings with you or she may feel that by becoming totally transparent that she has the best chance of not losing you. Maybe it's a combination of both.


Thanks morituri. I guess I've got to stop trying to be so analytical about this stuff and just go with the flow. After all, why should I care why it's happening? As long as I know I'm not being snowballed, and she keeps doing it unsolicited, it's all good right?


----------



## DoormatNoMore53

lordmayhem said:


> Yes, the physical intimacy from all that hysterical bonding is helping you and her re-connect. Just keep in mind that HB isn't always a sign that R will be successful, but it is a part of it.


Thanks lord. I do realize that we have a loooooong way to go. There is so much crap to deal with and so many layers of mistrust and hurt that need to be peeled away, I know it's going to take a lot of hard work and time.

Can't help enjoying the current Bennie's from this now though, especially after going so long without. Geez, it's weird, I would have never thought anything good could come from this. As long as I keep a level head, I'll see it for what it is and just enjoy riding it out.


----------



## morituri

DoormatNoMore53 no matter what happens to the marriage, strive to not allow the toxic twins, anger and bitterness, to poison your heart and soul. Doing so will help your personal healing tremendously and allow you to move on with your life, with (hopefully) or without your wife.


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## lordmayhem

If you're lucky, you could end up like AlmostRecovered. His HB with his fWW started and has hardly stopped. :smthumbup:

That's why I tell the WWs that come here wanting to help reconnect with their BH to throw all the sex at him that they can. *The intense physical intimacy and emotional sharing* that come from HB can help *spark* a little recovering and healing.


----------



## DoormatNoMore53

morituri said:


> strive to not allow the toxic twins, anger and bitterness, to poison your heart and soul.


Man that's a tough one right now. I'm great when I'm with her, but when I'm alone, I have to admit that those two demons are still whacking upside the head constantly. I'll have to address this with my IC. Maybe there are some tricks, or books or something to help me get a handle on this. You're right though, now it's all good because of HB. What happens if that slows down and the twins try and take over?


----------



## DoormatNoMore53

lordmayhem said:


> If you're lucky, you could end up like AlmostRecovered. His HB with his fWW started and has hardly stopped.


Oooh man, now that would be really cool!!!!!!!: Can't think of a better way to ruin myself. :rofl:


----------



## lordmayhem

Yeah, that would be cool. Sad to say, my HB didn't last, but it was good while it lasted. Felt like we were newlyweds again.


----------



## MrK

I'm presuming the comments that were made when this was in the private section stayed in the private section? Because this thread started with the OP describing a pretty cold, calculating, heartless b.i.t.c.h who dug a dagger into his chest and kept turning for 10 years of lies and deceit while giving herself to another man and not him. D was settled.

They pretty quickly changed inot two lovebirds on their honeymoon. Yeah, there are some posts missing, I guess. 

But as long as he's happy...

:scratchhead:


----------



## DoormatNoMore53

MrK said:


> I'm presuming the comments that were made when this was in the private section stayed in the private section? Because this thread started with the OP describing a pretty cold, calculating, heartless b.i.t.c.h who dug a dagger into his chest and kept turning for 10 years of lies and deceit while giving herself to another man and not him. D was settled.
> 
> They pretty quickly changed inot two lovebirds on their honeymoon. Yeah, there are some posts missing, I guess.
> 
> But as long as he's happy...
> 
> :scratchhead:


????????????????? :wtf:

Better read the WHOLE thread before making comments dude. :nono:


----------



## DoormatNoMore53

lordmayhem said:


> Yeah, that would be cool. Sad to say, my HB didn't last, but it was good while it lasted. Felt like we were newlyweds again.


Sorry to hear that lord. 

Don't know if this will last either, or even if it will lead to R, but you're right about it being good while it lasts. I think I deserve to take time, have some fun and make up my mind on exactly what I want to do. All I really do know for sure is that when it comes to this sh!t, nothing is carved in stone. It's just a matter of taking it one day at a time, and time is something I have a lot of right now.


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## Almostrecovered

lordmayhem said:


> If you're lucky, you could end up like AlmostRecovered. His HB with his fWW started and has hardly stopped. :smthumbup:


HA! It went down by half after the HB period! (8 times a week to 4-5 times a week)




last night was pretty incredible tho


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## Shaggy

I don't want to bring you down from the fun you are having, but you need to be ready for the next steps to follow.

1. Be on watch and be prepared over the coming months for her to begin to want you to give her back her old freedom and her old friends/lifestyle. 

2. be on watch for her to slip, even momentarily, back into acting/talking with you like she did during the last 12 years.

3. be on guard against you finally getting some and slipping back into the clueless accepting nice guy of old.

Habits and behaviors are very hard to break. It's one thing to act differently for a bit, but is it is hard to change for good. It can be done, but you need to be vigilant and quick to end the backslide when it happens.


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## MrK

DoormatNoMore53 said:


> ????????????????? :wtf:
> 
> Better read the WHOLE thread before making comments dude. :nono:


I did read the whole thread. I just missed how you guys got to this honeymoon stage so quickly. What happened to her gaslighting you for 10 years? What happened to her making excuses for not wanting sex with you for 10 years? What happened to her showing ZERO remorse until it looked like her safety valve sprang a leak? What happened to definite divorce? And how is it all of these experts are giving you thumbs up when this is all playing right into the standard script?

No fear about what she will do once she realizes that there were no consequenses to making a mockery of your marriage for 10 years? Not wondering how she could treat you like s.h.i.t for 10 years then suddenly realize you were her true one and only? Not worries about the lies about lies for the past 3 years?

Sorry, I'm not one of your top 5 pals, but it looks like they are letting you down here. Might want to listen to some other voices for a while.

Again, I read the whole thread, but look at my time stamp on that last one. That's eastern US time. It was late and I was tired. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to pile on, just bring you back down to earth a little. If you don't want my advice, just pass over it.


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## Jonesey

MrK said:


> I did read the whole thread. I just missed how you guys got to this honeymoon stage so quickly. What happened to her gaslighting you for 10 years? What happened to her making excuses for not wanting sex with you for 10 years? What happened to her showing ZERO remorse until it looked like her safety valve sprang a leak? What happened to definite divorce? And how is it all of these experts are giving you thumbs up when this is all playing right into the standard script?
> 
> No fear about what she will do once she realizes that there were no consequenses to making a mockery of your marriage for 10 years? Not wondering how she could treat you like s.h.i.t for 10 years then suddenly realize you were her true one and only? Not worries about the lies about lies for the past 3 years?
> 
> Sorry, I'm not one of your top 5 pals, but it looks like they are letting you down here. Might want to listen to some other voices for a while.
> 
> Again, I read the whole thread, but look at my time stamp on that last one. That's eastern US time. It was late and I was tired. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to pile on, just bring you back down to earth a little. If you don't want my advice, just pass over it.


:iagree: i to wonder how fast the honeymoon came around.


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## DoormatNoMore53

Shaggy said:


> I don't want to bring you down from the fun you are having, but you need to be ready for the next steps to follow.


You're NOT bringing me down shag. You're my voice of reason. 



Shaggy said:


> 1. Be on watch and be prepared over the coming months for her to begin to want you to give her back her old freedom and her old friends/lifestyle.


Oh Fu*k No! Will never happen I can assure you. 



Shaggy said:


> 2. be on watch for her to slip, even momentarily, back into acting/talking with you like she did during the last 12 years.


Ah, Fu*k No again! I've had way enough of that sh!t for a lifetime.



Shaggy said:


> 3. be on guard against you finally getting some and slipping back into the clueless accepting nice guy of old.


OK, Fu*k No #3! No more Mr, nice guy. Only Mr. my way or the highway guy for a least the next few years.



Shaggy said:


> Habits and behaviors are very hard to break. It's one thing to act differently for a bit, but is it is hard to change for good. It can be done, but you need to be vigilant and quick to end the backslide when it happens.


:iagree: and understand. Hell, I don't even consider us in R yet and I'm not 100% convinced that that's what I want to do. She keeps telling me that she knows she has to convince me EVERY day that shes worthy of R. So, we shall see if she can keep it up. If she doesn't I've already told her where the door is. WW is well aware of how I feel on this, so if she slips, it's on her NOT me!

I am going to still enjoy HB for as long as it lasts though


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## Shaggy

:smthumbup:

Sounds like you've got your head on straight. Keep it there and you'll be fine.


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## DoormatNoMore53

MrK said:


> I did read the whole thread. I just missed how you guys got to this honeymoon stage so quickly. What happened to her gaslighting you for 10 years? What happened to her making excuses for not wanting sex with you for 10 years? What happened to her showing ZERO remorse until it looked like her safety valve sprang a leak? What happened to definite divorce? And how is it all of these experts are giving you thumbs up when this is all playing right into the standard script?
> 
> No fear about what she will do once she realizes that there were no consequenses to making a mockery of your marriage for 10 years? Not wondering how she could treat you like s.h.i.t for 10 years then suddenly realize you were her true one and only? Not worries about the lies about lies for the past 3 years?
> 
> Sorry, I'm not one of your top 5 pals, but it looks like they are letting you down here. Might want to listen to some other voices for a while.
> 
> Again, I read the whole thread, but look at my time stamp on that last one. That's eastern US time. It was late and I was tired. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to pile on, just bring you back down to earth a little. If you don't want my advice, just pass over it.


It's not a honeymoon! It's HB or haven't you heard of that!? Geez, I never even said I was going to R yet and I'm still not sure. What is so wrong with taking a little back of what I lost the last ten years? WW has tested clean and so have I. I have never said one word about forgiveness, R or anything else remotely like it. Please see my other posts on this.

As for having 5 good friends, they are the same friends that have gotten me through this thing so far. And none of them has ever tried to jam something down my throat. They've also let me have it when I've done something stupid. So yes, I do value their input.

Hey, you're entitled to your opinions. Just like I'm entitled to make up my own mind in my own sweet time frame. I don't feel I should rush or hurry about making decisions that will last the rest of my life and effect my kids and grand kids.

BTW, No harm, No Foul. Go ahead and post away. You have every right to express your opinions.


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## MrK

DoormatNoMore53 said:


> It's HB or haven't you heard of that!?


No, I haven't actually. But if it means I can enjoy screwing my wife when I can barely stand to be in the same bed with her, enlighten me. Maybe I need it too.

I'll leave you alone now. Just be careful that you're giving your heart and sould back to someone that has proven in the past that she can chew them up and spit them out with no problem.

Good luck to you.


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## DailyGrind

DoormatNoMore53 said:


> It's not a fu*king honeymoon! It's HB or haven't you heard of that!? Geez, I never even said I was going to R yet and I'm still not sure. What the fu*k is so wrong with taking a little back of what I lost the last ten years? WW has tested clean and so have I. I have never said one word about forgiveness, R or anything else remotely like it. So get off your soap boxes boys cause you're preaching to the choir. :soapbox:
> 
> As for having 5 good friends, so fu*king what. These are the same friends that have gotten me through this thing so far. And NONE of them has ever tried to jam something down my throat. They've also let me have it when I've done something stupid. Once again, you're preaching to the choir.:
> 
> Hey, you're entitled to your opinions. Just like I'm entitled to make up my own mind in my own sweet time frame. I don't feel rushed or hurried about making decisions that will last the rest of my life and effect my kids and grand kids, do you!?
> 
> BTW, No harm, No Foul. Go ahead and post away. If I don't like an opinion I don't have to give credence to it. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have the right to express them though, so like I said, feel free.


WOW, Doormat....You don't have to agree with advice....but lashing out at someone for their advice? I have to say, I agree with MrK..to the extent that I'm sure it is fun right now..but be careful. That bonding works both ways. It may wind up skewing your ability to disengage should this turn sour again. Thought I'd throw my .02 in, at the risk of being flamed.


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## Beowulf

DailyGrind said:


> WOW, Doormat....You don't have to agree with advice....but lashing out at someone for their advice? I have to say, I agree with MrK..to the extent that I'm sure it is fun right now..but be careful. That bonding works both ways. It may wind up skewing your ability to disengage should this turn sour again. Thought I'd throw my .02 in, at the risk of being flamed.


I can completely understand Door's wanting to do the horizontal mambo. I don't believe he ever lost his attraction to his W and after going without for that long I would be eager as well. As long as he can stay objective regarding the marriage I see no harm in it really. Heck, maybe his W will figure out what she is really losing if she screws up again!


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## DoormatNoMore53

> No, I haven't actually. But if it means I can enjoy screwing my wife when I can barely stand to be in the same bed with her, enlighten me. Maybe I need it too.


FYI,

*Hysterical Bonding*

Upon being confronted with the undeniable reality that their most trusted spouse has betrayed them with another, some BS's experience an overwhelming sexual desire for their wayward spouse. Many couples claim to have had the best, most intense and loving sex of their relationship during the period following the discovery of an affair, (generally a few weeks to several months), often trying new things and experimenting in ways they had never considered before. This phenomenon is termed "Hysterical Bonding.

There is very little information on this phenomenon, but it appears to be a primal, instinctual way for the partners to reconnect and reclaim each other. While it may feel counter-intuitive to the BS; as if they are "rewarding" the WS for the affair, hysterical bonding can be a stepping stone to reconciliation. The intimacy encourages communication and a closeness that may otherwise take some time to re-build.

The occurrence or absence of hysterical bonding does not appear to be an indicator of successful reconciliation. Many other factors, such as the WS's remorse and openness are far more reliable indicators. *Hysterical bonding is, however, normal, and nothing for the BS to be alarmed about or ashamed about experiencing.* In fact, it has been said it is the one positive in an otherwise long and miserable experience, so enjoy it while it lasts!

From Surviving Infidelity - Why do I want to have sex with FWS?

Note: There are many other references to HB available. Here's an example search link - G Search Hysterical Bonding


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## DoormatNoMore53

DailyGrind said:


> WOW, Doormat....You don't have to agree with advice....but lashing out at someone for their advice? I have to say, I agree with MrK..to the extent that I'm sure it is fun right now..but be careful. That bonding works both ways. It may wind up skewing your ability to disengage should this turn sour again. Thought I'd throw my .02 in, at the risk of being flamed.


No flames here Daily and thanks for your post. I was trying to make a point and yes, I probably went over board. Please read all my posts., but for the sake of expediency, here are the main points as they apply to this issue:

1. I am very aware that HB is temporary.
2. I in no way consider WW and I in R due to this.
3. I'm not even sure yet if I'm willing to R.
4. WW knows this as she has been told many times by me that she will be shown the door if she skips a beat.
5. I am just taking my time to evaluate this entire situation while staying level headed. I am in control now, so time is on my side for once, and it feels really good.
6. Yes I'm enjoying the sex. Wouldn't anyone after a long absence from it and two back-to-back surgeries that I'm now just fully recovering from?
7. This is NOT lovemaking. It's raw sex with someone I have a 37 year history with; in lieu of a stranger which I would then consider myself cheating.

Hope that explains things again.


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## DoormatNoMore53

Beowulf said:


> I can completely understand Door's wanting to do the horizontal mambo. I don't believe he ever lost his attraction to his W and after going without for that long I would be eager as well. As long as he can stay objective regarding the marriage I see no harm in it really. Heck, maybe his W will figure out what she is really losing if she screws up again!


Thanks for the understanding Beowulf. And yes, I am staying objective and level headed.


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## morituri

Door do you know the act of writing your last post can be therapeutic because it is a reminder to yourself of where you should be in this period of time? The marriage is on probation.


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## Almostrecovered

guys quit trying to c0ckblock him and let him enjoy it, poor guy was sexless for a decade!!


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## HelloooNurse

Yeah, might as well get your use out of her before she's gone. I like the way you guys think.


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## MEM2020

DNM,
First off I agree you should stay the course and see what happens. Secondly HB is very real and has many behavioral "kissing cousins". The end of a long term marriage is like a type of death. Coming close to that and then avoiding it is like coming close to death and living. Tons of war stories about what civilians do after surviving a bombing raid - they fvck like crazy. 

I have a post from last year where my W created an intense level of conflict to which I responded aggressively. Prior to that conflict we were at a frequency of a little over once a week. Right after we had many weeks of almost daily intense sex. 

Your challenge is going to be defining a steady state that you feel good about and that is sustainable. So my gentle suggestion is for you to begin thinking about how you are going to help your wife transition from anxiety based lust to a sincere desire to please you. She will need your help in making that transition. You will need to be firm and low affect. You will also need to move away from "sudden death" penalty mode into a more graduated type of reaction to her behavior. 

I think what you are doing is great. If you get to the point where you want some feedback on how to transit to a healthy steady state, let me know. 





DoormatNoMore53 said:


> No flames here Daily and thanks for your post. I was trying to make a point and yes, I probably went over board. Please read all my posts., but for the sake of expediency, here are the main points as they apply to this issue:
> 
> 1. I am very aware that HB is temporary.
> 2. I in no way consider WW and I in R due to this.
> 3. I'm not even sure yet if I'm willing to R.
> 4. WW knows this as she has been told many times by me that she will be shown the door if she skips a beat.
> 5. I am just taking my time to evaluate this entire situation while staying level headed. I am in control now, so time is on my side for once, and it feels really good.
> 6. Yes I'm enjoying the sex. Wouldn't anyone after a long absence from it and two back-to-back surgeries that I'm now just fully recovering from?
> 7. This is NOT lovemaking. It's raw sex with someone I have a 37 year history with; in lieu of a stranger which I would then consider myself cheating.
> 
> Hope that explains things again.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DoormatNoMore53

*Just an update about New Years Eve*

First and foremost, HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!!!!!

Last night WW and I had plans for an informal NYE with just the two of us. A few appies, a bottle of wine and a movie. Our plans quickly turned to sh!t though. Remember I've told some of you that WW owns and operates a cooking forum that I built for her. Well to make a long story short, she spent half the night cooking the appies, taking photos of them and posting on her site. I started to feel like a second fiddle again, so I confronted her on it and we had a little blow up at first, (I think this was the wine as we're not really drinkers).

Things settled down and we would up having a three hour discussion (mostly me at first) where I told her in low and controlled tones, and in no uncertain terms, that I refused to be the under-card anymore to anyone, or anything, and that included her website. I told her that if she couldn't put me first before everything else, that she should just be honest and tell me so I could move on. She let me talk without saying a word, and then apologized profusely. She admitted she was dead wrong and told me that she made another mistake that won't ever happen again. We shall see, but I have to tell you that the convo was an empowering experience. If you could have seen the look on her face, you would know what I'm talking about. All in all, New Years eve turned out to be pretty cool in the end.

BTW, Just so I don't get flamed - all the members on her cooking forum save 3 or 4 are women. The OM is NOT a member and I track her every movement on it. I have not asked her to give up the site because to be honest, it brings in a little income every month which we need at the moment.

I hope everyone has a great day today. I plan on doing nothing but watching football and chilling.


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## Shaggy

Good job confronting the back slide instead of internalizing it and getting resentful and over thinking what you should do.

This is exactly what I was warning you about - and it sounds like you handled it like a pro.

Calling her on it, but staying calm is what worked here.


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## morituri

DoormatNoMore53 said:


> Things settled down and we would up having a three hour discussion (mostly me at first) *where I told her in low and controlled tones*, and in no uncertain terms, that I refused to be the under-card anymore to anyone, or anything, and that included her website. I told her that if she couldn't put me first before everything else, that she should just be honest and tell me so I could move on. She let me talk without saying a word, and then apologized profusely. She admitted she was dead wrong and told me that she made another mistake that won't ever happen again. We shall see, but I have to tell you that the convo was an empowering experience. If you could have seen the look on her face, you would know what I'm talking about. All in all, New Years eve turned out to be pretty cool in the end.


Excellent! You kept your cool which showed her your emotional strength and your message was spot on.

It is so easy to go back to the same old habits that created the marital environment where the affair was born, unless the two of you are eternally vigilant, like you were last night. The old marriage is dead, good riddance.

Hopefully your wife will continue to show through her actions that she is worthy to be your life companion. Maybe even one day, you may wish to renew your vows.

Happy New Year DNM53! (_Hopefully the ancient Mayans just happened to run out of rock_ )


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## DoormatNoMore53

Hi Everyone!

I'm so sorry for not updating in awhile. My only excuse is that things have been really crazy here and I just plain forgot. I'll try to do a better job of keeping everyone in the loop as I really do appreciate all the help.

So, here's an update on what's been happening up to now.....

Things right now are like a f*cking roller coaster ride...up, down, up, down. One day it's sort of OK, and the next it's total sh!t. A lot of this has to do with me. When I'm home and around WW so we can talk, I'm fine. However, as soon as I go out of the house and I'm alone, the mind movies and evil twins start beating me up to the point where I want to choke WW and OM's necks again. I've been working on exercises to help with this , and they're beginning to pay dividends to some extent.

HB is continuing and in fact, may be even a little more intense of late. And yes, I'm still doing this with a level head. I am still not letting WW get away with any back sliding. I immediately call her on it when it happens. BTW, it's happening less and less lately so maybe she's finally starting to get the fact that it's got to be an everyday thing, not just when she feels like it. I told her yesterday again that until I feel completely healed, we can not expect final R. Funny thing is that I still can't commit to us being in R, or if I really want to. S&D still rolls around in my head, mostly because it would be so much easier to run from this constant pain. I have to admit that sometimes I feel guilty about this and wonder if it's normal. MY IC says it is and so do the books I'm reading. I just think that at some point I'm going to need to make a decision. I'm NOT pressuring myself on this though. I know I have time.

I'm not taking Lexapro anymore. While it helped with the panic attacks and seemed to raise my mood a little, I started to have really bad side affects from it. I could only sleep for 2 hours at a time and then I would wake up in a frenzy, almost like a paranoid state. It scared the sh!t out of me. I also would have ridiculously vivid nightmares almost every night. I know they were from the Lex because they stopped immediately after I stopped taking it. I was also getting concerned about the sexual side affects of Lex. I did a load of research on this and found out that Lex is famous for SSA's like permanent ED, inability to orgasm, and apathy. What really disturbed me was that these side affects happen in up to 70% of guys taking it, depending on what study you believe. That scared the sh!t out of me too! I lost 12 years of sex and I'm not getting any younger. FYI, for anyone else thinking about taking Lexapro, be forewarned and extremely careful.

I'm now on a brand new med called "Viibryd". It has none of the side effects of Lex and seems to be working really well. The one draw back to it is that it's super expensive ($200 for 30 day supply! grrrrrrr!). My doc gave me some samples and a coupon for a free 30 day supply which helped at first but man, $200 a month is tough to swallow (pardon the bad pun).

WW and I are going to MC together as well as IC individually. IC is working fine, but I have some doubts about our "C" in MC. I'll do another post on that as I have some questions for you all.

Last but not least, I've been reading a lot lately (love the library now - lol). Anyway, I just finished _"Not Just Friends"_. Man, I love that book! For me, it really hits home on loads of issues. I gave it to WW and she's half way through it. We plan on talking about it after shes done.

Well, that's all for now. You're all up to date. I promise it won't be so long next time .

As always, thanks for listening and your comments and advice are most welcome.

~John


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## DoormatNoMore53

Hey everyone,

I have a couple of questions and need some advice regarding MC and specifically the "C". I have been reading a lot lately. In one book, there's a whole section on MC and making sure that the "C" is right for you and knows about both sides of infidelity, i.e., BS & WS and the issues they face. So here's my questions...

I was wondering how everybody else picked their MC? 

How did you know they were right for you? 
How long do I give it if I think there may be a problem?
Did any of you have to switch "C"'s? If you did, what finally "clicked" that made you decide that you needed to switch?

Any help and advice on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance .


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## Shaggy

I think you shoud set a goal to get off the mood meds in a short while. They are ok to get past the big initial hurdle but long term they steel part of you if you know what I mean.

As for the need to make a decision, you already have done that: you decided to work with her to try and see if she can build a new relationship with you where you feel safe and happy. That's not explicit R, but more of what you might get from very very serious exclusive dating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

DoormatNoMore53 said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I have a couple of questions and need some advice regarding MC and specifically the "C". I have been reading a lot lately. In one book, there's a whole section on MC and making sure that the "C" is right for you and knows about both sides of infidelity, i.e., BS & WS and the issues they face. So here's my questions...
> 
> I was wondering how everybody else picked their MC?
> 
> How did you know they were right for you?
> How long do I give it if I think there may be a problem?
> Did any of you have to switch "C"'s? If you did, what finally "clicked" that made you decide that you needed to switch?
> 
> Any help and advice on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance .


I googled how to find a marriage counselor and found this marriagebuilders page.

How to Find a Good Marriage Counselor


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