# The New American Man Doesn't Look Like His Father



## Ikaika

The New American Man Doesn't Look Like His Father : NPR


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## EleGirl

When society transformed from mainly farming to industrial there were huge numbers of books and articles written about how men were no longer the same. How this change was destroying the family. It's very interesting to read some of them because in many ways the sound a lot like the articles we are seeing today.

Society changes. We adapt.


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## Caribbean Man

Great article , and some interesting perspective from controversial author , sociologist Michael Kimmel. 

It think it also debunks the sexist concept of " male privilege ."

Here's a little snapshot of what that " privilege" looks like;



And stuff like education , and war fatalities aren't mentioned because it is understood and accepted as fact.


If all humans are created equal , then why has the conversation about gender equality in the USA been so lop sided for so long ?

Or better yet , why is it politically incorrect for men to discuss issues that they perceive are affecting them negatively in the USA , in an age of egalitarianism?

Sounds like Orwellian double speak to me.

These are all difficult questions , but framing the discussion in the right context should be able to produce answers and workable solutions that are acceptable to both sides.


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## murphy5

ah, its a brave new world!


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## Forest

drerio said:


> The New American Man Doesn't Look Like His Father : NPR


Who does he look like? His mother?


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## jld

Ele, I think you are right on about the changes being linked to more men not growing up doing manual labor. And nowadays, their fathers may not have done it, either.

And yes, men do look and act more like women. Look at how upset they get when women are emotional. They can't seem to shake it off.

My husband grew up on a farm. He is used to dirt and labor and continuous responsibility. He wasn't with peers all the time. He spent most of his time with his family. 

And he grew up in a country not as rich as the USA, where he, and every kid in his village, got one present for Christmas and just a cake for his birthday. But nobody felt deprived, because that was the norm.

My daughter is 19 and has mentioned that the young men at her college (a mostly engineering school) are not like her dad (himself an engineer). They blend right in with the girls. She is just not feeling attracted to them. Often, she is the leader, whether it is in chem lab or her honors classes. 

She has told me she is not going to be with a young man less intelligent than herself, and could be happy single, with her career as her focus, nice vacations, a pretty house, etc.

I understand Ele's comment, that we adapt, but are we? Are we adapting in a _healthy_ way?


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## John Lee

jld said:


> My daughter is 19 and has mentioned that the young men at her college (a mostly engineering school) are not like her dad (himself an engineer). They blend right in with the girls. She is just not feeling attracted to them. Often, she is the leader, whether it is in chem lab or her honors classes.


This is the rub for me. I feel like all my life I have been told *by women* to act more a certain way, and then I find out that it's not "attractive" to act in the very way that women have been telling me to act.


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## treyvion

John Lee said:


> This is the rub for me. I feel like all my life I have been told *by women* to act more a certain way, and then I find out that it's not "attractive" to act in the very way that women have been telling me to act.


Exactly. They will gay down the rest of the men and then only 5% are attractive to them. Be a man.


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## unbelievable

Our society does all in it's power to prevent boys and men from behaving like males. This is why we end up in a world where women swoon over scrawny, sparkling, sensitive, vampires and call the SWAT team if they happen to meet an actual man. Just another brilliant Lefty idea that went predictably and terribly wrong.


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## jld

John Lee said:


> This is the rub for me. I feel like all my life I have been told *by women* to act more a certain way, and then I find out that it's not "attractive" to act in the very way that women have been telling me to act.


I am sure it is tricky for a man. He hears conflicting things.

My guy is a real guy, John Lee. Hardworking, masculine, tall and strong, not threatened in any way by women. 

Because he is secure in himself, he can be kind to women and understanding of them. He is not jealous of them. 

I know that sounds a little crazy, but some men actually sound jealous of women. And that is so unattractive!


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## John Lee

Honestly I feel like our society has swung too far in the direction of an entitlement culture for women -- at least for middle class and upper class women. They want everything both ways. Men are supposed to be their bffs and their provider/protectors -- be endless sponges for female emotion and yet not express emotion (unless it's the kind women want to hear). Men and women should be financially equal but women should have the freedom to pursue work that's "interesting" to them even when it's not the best financial decision. I keep seeing these "Can women have it all?" articles like it's some tragedy that it's hard to juggle family/work/fun. Of course you can't have it all. No one ever raised me to think I could have it all.


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## that_girl

"Gay down" Means nothing in a sense because some homosexual men are quite 'manly' and 'burly'. Stereotypes suck. A feminine man doesn't mean he's gay. Get over that.

I do know that if I was a young woman today, I'd have a hard time finding any male I'd be attracted to. 

But I see it in schools quite often, this "feminization of men". Teachers want boys to act like girls. But boys are not girls and should not be treated like they are. 

In my classroom there is tons of movement and talking. This is for both boys AND girls. Movement for the boys, talking for the girls. I've been to many seminars and read a few books on how to teach boys and it's quite fascinating to me. 

But, if young men don't look like MY dad, that's ok. He was a drunk and abandoned his family.


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## that_girl

John Lee said:


> Honestly I feel like our society has swung too far in the direction of an entitlement culture for women -- at least for middle class and upper class women. They want everything both ways. Men are supposed to be their bffs and their provider/protectors -- be endless sponges for female emotion and yet not express emotion (unless it's the kind women want to hear). Men and women should be financially equal but women should have the freedom to pursue work that's "interesting" to them even when it's not the best financial decision. I keep seeing these "Can women have it all?" articles like it's some tragedy that it's hard to juggle family/work/fun. Of course you can't have it all. No one ever raised me to think I could have it all.



No one can have it all. And I do believe any career should be interesting to you, or else why would you study to do it?

I don't want it all. I just want to do what's best for me and my kids.


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## John Lee

that_girl said:


> No one can have it all. And I do believe any career should be interesting to you, or else why would you study to do it?


To make sure your family can eat well, obviously.


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## that_girl

John Lee said:


> To make sure your family can eat well, obviously.


That's just a job then.

When I think career, I think of the positions people went to school for. I am a teacher, I love teaching, I was interested in teaching...and we eat just fine.

Husband loves cars, went to become a mechanic, now is a master mechanic. Bills are paid. He loves his career.


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## jld

I think it is great that you and your dh have satisfying work, tg. 

I think John's point is that even if you did not, you would still have responsibilities.

My dh loves his job, but even if he did not, he would still have to find some way to pay the bills. I could help, but I cannot make as much money as he can. He really carries that responsibility here. 

There seem to be other men that feel that financial responsibility, too. Though it may be dying out.


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## unbelievable

that_girl said:


> No one can have it all. And I do believe any career should be interesting to you, or else why would you study to do it?
> 
> 
> Hmmm, I dunno..because you need to pay bills? Your kids like to eat? It's awesome if people are delighted with their work but the primary function of a career is to support yourself and your family. If more college students understood this, there would be far fewer unemployed graduates with worthless degrees.


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## Dad&Hubby

drerio said:


> The New American Man Doesn't Look Like His Father : NPR


I look SOOO much BETTER!! :smthumbup:


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## John Lee

jld said:


> I think it is great that you and your dh have satisfying work, tg.
> 
> I think John's point is that even if you did not, you would still have responsibilities.
> 
> My dh loves his job, but even if he did not, he would still have to find some way to pay the bills. I could help, but I cannot make as much money as he can. He really carries that responsibility here.
> 
> There seem to be other men that feel that financial responsibility, too. Though it may be dying out.


I certainly feel that responsibility, and although my wife is not irresponsible, I'm ultimately the one who shoulders more of that burden. I'm the one who thinks through fully how much we need to make if we want certain things in life. I'm the one who went to school based on how I could improve my earning potential, whereas my wife (as I have occasionally griped around here) made a financially not so great decision in order, she thinks, to find a way out of a job she doesn't like. That aside, since my wife is the one who winds up with more of the responsibility for our childcare (although I'm a very involved dad), I don't think this division overall is unfair. It makes sense to divide labor and responsibility, not have everyone do everything. I only think it's unfair when one side of the equation wants more benefits and less responsibilities.


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## that_girl

I guess I just see a difference between career and job.

Or maybe I've just never been able to be silly about work.

I would work any job to provide for my family. Even jobs that deal with poop.

I couldn't imagine going to school for 6 years and hating my career. That is pointless and a waste of money.

I am a trained doula. My DREAM Is to be a doula. I can't just quit my job and become one because it's not steady income.

So don't talk to me like I don't know why you'd work any JOB. I thought you meant career and I don't know too many people who chose careers, paid tuition for school, and hate their career.

Or maybe I just don't get it because I've never had someone take care of me. I carry most of the weight in bills and always have in my life. I've been a mom (single) since 22 so I was never allowed to be silly with life. I guess some women can be...I just don't know any of them.


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## movealong

Until men are ready to change the dynamic, this kind of crap will be the norm. Has anyone seen a competent Dad figure on t.v. since the Cosby show went off the air? Most of the "Dad's" portrayed on t.v. today are bumbling idiots who can't make a move without checking to see if their panties are on right side out and checking with their wife. 

It seems as if the 'perfect men' are subservient fools or unattainable sparkly vampires, or rich sadomasochist types. Sometimes I think women are living in a fantasy world of 50 Shades, Twilight, and insane romance novels where they honestly believe that they can change men into their "ideal". In the meantime, most men are trying to adapt to this norm and failing. I'd rather fail being who I am than fail trying to be a sparkly effing vampire wannabe. LOL!


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## GusPolinski

Forest said:


> Who does he look like? His mother?


LOL. Mother's ex-boyfriend/former co-worker/random bar guy/mailman.


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## Racer

I've been reading this author... interesting take on all this.
A New Masculinity - Mark Manson
The basic summary is what was once seen as masculine and “success” just no longer is. A career man, slave to the office, provider, white-picket fence… is seen as almost a failure now. The role models are just as screwed up, and what it is to be ‘manly’ is subjective. A premise of this author is a ‘right of passage’ sort of thing where other men judge you is at the heart of it.

While I don't disagree, I don't think that's the full story. My own belief is because of the female influence indoctrinating what they want as a gender from men, along with feminist fathers and politically correct acceptance, as well as a whole slew of male peers who have also learned some traditional male traits are 'bad', that the end result is there are severe mixed signals. 

The balance point hasn’t been found, just as it hasn’t for women yet… Culture is in transformation for men, just as it is for woman. It’s sort of why I latched onto the NMMNG Integrated Male concept; You are true to yourself. Because the reality is there are so many versions of ‘the perfect man’ that one person’s perspective of you will not at all be the same as the next. You can’t please them all and most are more than happy to advise you toward their ideal of “perfection”. So you focus on the one thing you can control and listen to; your own gut about what a man is.


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## that_girl

movealong said:


> Until men are ready to change the dynamic, this kind of crap will be the norm. Has anyone seen a competent Dad figure on t.v. since the Cosby show went off the air? Most of the "Dad's" portrayed on t.v. today are bumbling idiots who can't make a move without checking to see if their panties are on right side out and checking with their wife.
> 
> It seems as if the 'perfect men' are subservient fools or unattainable sparkly vampires, or rich sadomasochist types. Sometimes I think women are living in a fantasy world of 50 Shades, Twilight, and insane romance novels where they honestly believe that they can change men into their "ideal". In the meantime, most men are trying to adapt to this norm and failing. I'd rather fail being who I am than fail trying to be a sparkly effing vampire wannabe. LOL!


OMG The way men are portrayed on TV and commercials really irritates me! Men look like stupid baffoons and some woman has to come rescue or ridicule him. Wtf? :scratchhead: It's not funny or ok, imo. It's unnerving and I am glad we don't have television (just movies and Netflix streaming). 

And vampires don't sparkle. The eff. I have never seen those movies out of principle BUT....yea. No.

And I'm sure when you say "women", you mean SOME women. Not all of anything is something.


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## ScarletBegonias

Men today are definitely different than their fathers. Some of that is very,very good. Some of that is very,very bad. 

I like that my husband doesn't act like the folks in Mad Men.I like that he does the stereotypical man jobs around the house like mowing the lawn,patching the driveway,snow blowing,etc. But I also like that he understands me on an emotional level and isn't too manly to be emotional himself. 

He can be all the man he wants to be as long as he meets my emotional and physical needs


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## ScarletBegonias

that_girl said:


> OMG The way men are portrayed on TV and commercials really irritates me! Men look like stupid baffoons and some woman has to come rescue or ridicule him. Wtf? :scratchhead: It's not funny or ok, imo. It's unnerving and I am glad we don't have television (just movies and Netflix streaming).
> 
> And vampires don't sparkle. The eff. I have never seen those movies out of principle BUT....yea. No.


I've b*tched about this on numerous occasions here.It's REALLY getting bad. 

Like that commercial where mom is away for business and talking to dad/kids on the webcam. He's all "yeah dear every thing is cool" and they pan out to show the house is wrecked. Some advertisement for washable paint. Basically shows men can't be trusted to care for children while mom is away. SO FREAKING insulting and irritating. I WISH these advertisement people would just STOP IT.


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## that_girl

I don't see a lot of commercials (was away for a night recently and watched TV and I do NOT miss television. Stupid!)

Anyway, I saw a commercial for laundry. The man was such an IDIOT  I mean, he didn't know what settings to push or how much soap. Dude. If the man was 1/2 competent he could figure it out, but no...his wife came to rescue him with some condescending smiles and a pat ON THE HEAD 

Gross. If my mate acted like that, it would NOT be sexy....hard to feel sexy with someone you see as your child.

The men I know personally, in my circle if you will, are really good men. Fun to be around, like to talk about things other than cars and tools, good fathers (two are single fathers, one is a widower), and well rounded in interests. I wouldn't say they were feminine, but they do struggle with finding a balance, especially when dating. I hear stories of WOMEN these days and WOW....just people who were lied to about being princesses.

I just raise my girls to smell bullshet. One thing I notice in the generation of the late 90s is that they lack ambition. (Many, not all). They don't have summer jobs or any way to get income, and yet they want mommy and daddy to pay for their "wants". lol. My daughter knows better than to ask for "wants". She can earn money and next summer she'll have to get a job or she'll be home all summer. I don't think parents push their kids (boys or girls) to be independent as much. I know that my 5th grade classes are weak. The kids are whiny and parents are always there fighting their kids' battles. It's sad.


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## WorkingOnMe

John Lee said:


> This is the rub for me. I feel like all my life I have been told *by women* to act more a certain way, and then I find out that it's not "attractive" to act in the very way that women have been telling me to act.



You don't ask a deer for hunting tips.


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## movealong

that_girl said:


> OMG The way men are portrayed on TV and commercials really irritates me! Men look like stupid baffoons and some woman has to come rescue or ridicule him. Wtf? :scratchhead: It's not funny or ok, imo. It's unnerving and I am glad we don't have television (just movies and Netflix streaming).
> 
> And vampires don't sparkle. The eff. I have never seen those movies out of principle BUT....yea. No.
> 
> *And I'm sure when you say "women", you mean SOME women. Not all of anything is something.*


Standard over-generalization to go along with the stereotype of men.


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## EleGirl

So what are the issues that men feel are politically incorrect to talk about that they feel are important?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl

However, as far as TV goes....I was not around when women were portrayed as idiots and children. Husbands SPANKING their wives for going over budget or getting the wrong coffee.

Women bowing down to all needs of her husband while he smoked a pipe and called her his "little woman".

Women upset that they got the wrong "insert item here" because her husband would be mad at her. 

WTF.

The pendulum has to find a REAL middle ground. Both of these (from the I Love Lucy days to now) are extremes. Somewhere in the middle is the truth.

The trouble is, young boys watch TV and see men acting like this and being treated like this and they think it's ok. Subconsciously they think it's ok.

If I talked to my husband the way some of those TV women talk to their men, HOLY CRAP! not only would I feel shetty, but he'd call me on it too. You can be upset and still not be condescending and sarcastic.


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## that_girl

movealong said:


> Standard over-generalization to go along with the stereotype of men.


Duh. Of course.


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## John Lee

Another commercial that bothers me: those "framily" commercials (AT&T)? The man looks like a child and acts completely ineffectual, and his house is in disarray. I know it's supposed to just be "silly" or something, but that's the message I get.


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## jld

that_girl said:


> Or maybe I just don't get it because* I've never had someone take care of me. I carry most of the weight in bills and always have in my life.* I've been a mom (single) since 22 so I was never allowed to be silly with life. I guess some women can be...I just don't know any of them.


Tg, would you like a man to take care of you? To provide enough money so that you could be a SAHM?

I ask, because some women have said they would not want that. 

To me, for me, that is a pretty essential part of my life. It was a huge draw for me to my husband, that he saw it as his job to provide for me and the kids. 

But it seems like that way of life is dying out. And to some people, the idea that it still exists at all is just wrong.


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## Racer

EleGirl said:


> So what are the issues that men feel are politically incorrect to talk about that they feel are important?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Women. (in any light other than the intelligent, sexual, wise, all knowing creatures with boobs)

Violence. How awesome it feels to just wail on someone.

Sexuality. Porn and such...


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## that_girl

Talking about women would be a big tackle. Women are all different. Sure, stereotypes exist but that wouldn't be authentic.

Not all men are deadbeat drunks and yet that was all I saw as a child. It wouldn't be fair now to hold that against all men.

Talk about women! We're a crazy mix of everything. If your views on women are bad (majority of views) then you're hanging with the wrong women.


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## that_girl

jld said:


> Tg, would you like a man to take care of you? To provide enough money so that you could be a SAHM?
> 
> I ask, because some women have said they would not want that.
> 
> To me, for me, that is a pretty essential part of my life. It was a huge draw for me to my husband, that he saw it as his job to provide for me and the kids.
> 
> But it seems like that way of life is dying out. And to some people, the idea that it still exists at all is just wrong.


I like having my own way to earn money. I watched my mom struggle like anything when my dad and she divorced. She had no job, no real income. What a mess. I was 12 and knew I'd never be in that situation. 

Marriage is a big leap of faith. I refused to let someone else (husband or not) hold me in their hands...because at some point, I would be dropped-- then what? (and I have been dropped, but been ok  )

Sorry, off topic, was just answering her questions.


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## WorkingOnMe

EleGirl said:


> So what are the issues that men feel are politically incorrect to talk about that they feel are important?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



We've learned the hard way to avoid questions like that since our answers just get used against us. Men: beware the nice and innocent sounding female.


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## that_girl

Wow.

So you don't want men to be portrayed a certain way but you treat all women a certain way. Beware women?


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## EleGirl

Racer said:


> Women. (in any light other than the intelligent, sexual, wise, all knowing creatures with boobs)
> 
> Violence. How awesome it feels to just wail on someone.
> 
> Sexuality. Porn and such...


Now there you go. A serious answer to a serious guestion. Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

WorkingOnMe said:


> Men: beware the nice and innocent sounding female.


Because she might teach you something.


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## EleGirl

EleGirl said:


> Now there you go. A serious answer to a serious guestion. Lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then don't complain about not being able to bring issues b that are importsnt to men.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## movealong

The women responding to WorkingOnMe totally missed the point of his post, the guys all nodded when they read it. LOL!


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## Racer

that_girl said:


> Talk about women! We're a crazy mix of everything. If your views on women are bad (majority of views) then you're hanging with the wrong women.


Yes, you are a crazy mix.

I just know meeting some new guy, there will be some common ground of conversation: Guns, cars, exploding stuff, gaming, or sports... 99% of the time, we can roll with that and kill hours pounding our chest and grunting about our exploits. So basically, there is a 99% chance one of those subjects is a common interest. 

And by irony, there is a 99% chance one of those subjects some woman will take issue with that you actually like it and feels compelled to counter-point and try to 'correct' your thoughts on the subject. Guys harass, poke and prod, but rarely talk down to you like motherly scolding.


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## GusPolinski

John Lee said:


> This is the rub for me. I feel like all my life I have been told *by women* to act more a certain way, and then I find out that it's not "attractive" to act in the very way that women have been telling me to act.


I think that this is because, as a group, we've sort of taken the advice that we've been given w/ respect to relationships over the course of the past generation (hell, maybe the past couple of generations) to the extreme.

Imagine this scenario... A man and his wife are out and about one day, driving around looking for a new restaurant or whatever. Husband is driving, wife is navigating. Wife says "Turn left!" sort of sharply, so husband turns left. But he turns so far to the left that he actually winds up doing a 180 (NPI) of sorts. That's kind of what we've done.

A generation ago, women wanted us to be more emotionally supportive, wanted us to listen more, wanted us to help out around the house and w/ the kids more, etc. Basically, we've been asked to become more "beta", and we have. Well, we've taken it too far. We meant to turn left and instead wound up turning around. It's possible to do each of ^these things w/o being "too beta", and that's what books like MMSLP and NMMNG are about -- finding and maintaining a healthy balance.


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## John Lee

EleGirl said:


> Now there you go. A serious answer to a serious guestion. Lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's interesting to me that the female responses to what he said have all been sarcastic and dismissive. I see this so much on all these blog sites like jezebel, this snarky, sarcastic, dismissive tone, so anxious at its core, so afraid to actually engage with anything being said.


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## that_girl

Well, then just sit around and complain about women.

I love women and all their differences. I don't hang around women who can't hold a conversation.

I love men and all their differences. I don't hang around men who can't hold a conversation.

That's why men make male friends and women have girl friends. What is your point? Do you want to sit around and talk about birth with me? I'm a doula-- I love birth and fertility. Or maybe sit around and talk about feelings and gardening and surfing and hiking. These are also my interests. No. Some man would roll his eyes and yawn.

So again, what is your point? Men and women are hardly compatible for many reasons...they just get together because of attraction and reproduction purposes. 

I do like guns though...and survival talk. I like politics and conspiracy theories too. And I can have great conversations with people about it, people who share the same interests.

And if you were serious about fighting, there is really nothing that feels quite like it when you punch someone. But I can't see having a 2 hour conversation about that, unless we're comparing fight stories. lol.


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## that_girl

John Lee said:


> It's interesting to me that the female responses to what he said have all been sarcastic and dismissive. I see this so much on all these blog sites like jezebel, this snarky, sarcastic, dismissive tone, so anxious at its core, so afraid to actually engage with anything being said.


Well, it also seems that many, if not most, men have an idea in their brain about what a woman is and who she is...without knowing that woman.

It comes across in every post about women. I read these posts and think, "Damn, I don't know any woman like this!" So many he just picked the wrong women.


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## John Lee

that_girl said:


> Well, then just sit around and complain about women.
> 
> I love women and all their differences. I don't hang around women who can't hold a conversation.
> 
> I love men and all their differences. I don't hang around men who can't hold a conversation.
> 
> That's why men make male friends and women have girl friends. What is your point? Do you want to sit around and talk about birth with me? I'm a doula-- I love birth and fertility. Or maybe sit around and talk about feelings and gardening and surfing and hiking. These are also my interests. No. Some man would roll his eyes and yawn.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Well I think what men don't understand these days is "is this ok or isn't it?" Are we cool with the idea that men and women aren't exactly the same or aren't we? I don't think all men love guns or no women do, I know you can't always "generalize" but do we accept as a society that there are some loose gender lines or not? We can't expect men to have all the good qualities of both men and women. A guy can't be tough, stoic, and emotionally wide open all at the same time, it's a contradiction.


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## John Lee

I mean, I'm not into hunting or fishing or NFL, but I like NBA and guitars and to be honest I cannot imagine a conversation I would less want to have than discussing birth with a doula. Women can like NBA and guitars too, and men can want to knit or whatever (I sure don't), but ultimately do we recognize that certain traits have some correlation to gender?


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## EleGirl

John Lee said:


> It's interesting to me that the female responses to what he said have all been sarcastic and dismissive. I see this so much on all these blog sites like jezebel, this snarky, sarcastic, dismissive tone, so anxious at its core, so afraid to actually engage with anything being said.


His response was way too high level to be able to actually address any thing meaningful.

Basicly he said that men want to be talk about how bad women are, besting the crap out of each other and porn.

Have at it. If those are the hardest issues you (generic you) have, you lead a charmed life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

John Lee said:


> A guy can't be tough, stoic, and emotionally wide open all at the same time, it's a contradiction.


My husband is, if I am understanding your post correctly.

If you are secure in yourself, you can listen to other viewpoints. You don't have to agree with them, but you can listen.


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## WillinTampa

Like most "trends"and "epidemics" in the news, the demise of men is 95% media BS. 

Men are still men. You have to look a little deeper into these reported trends. 

For example, more women are attending college. Yes, a little more, but the majority of women are majoring in psychology and business and other non-STEM fields. When I studied Engineering in the late 70's there were about 15% women in my classes. That percentage hasn't changed in over 30 years. 

The 21 Century is technical -- women who are planning to take over the World need to change their majors.

"Women are the breadwinners in The majority of households in America..." 

Yes but... 60% of those "breadwinner mom" households are single mother households -- a small inconvenient technicality. 

Women are no doubt advancing and things are changing for men, but not anywhere near the rate and effect that the alarmist, click-hungry, press blathers on about. 

I think both men and women are going to be just fine in the future. 

There is some truth to the old quip: The more things change, the more they stay the same. 


.


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## that_girl

Men can be whatever they want to be and someone will find that attractive. No?



I always fell for the tough, quiet, stoic men...and got burned each time. Yet, as far as men go, I am not attracted to emotionally wide open people...at least not in public. I, myself, am not all wide open in public either. 

I don't think men or women should care if something is ok or not. Just say it. Two of my best friends are men and it helps me see inside their world. Their dating stories are hilarious. But one is into cooking (his wife passed 9 months ago and this has helped him heal) and the other is a writer...however BOTH men have that mysterious quality women dig. 

You don't have to be a douche to be a "man".


----------



## that_girl

John Lee said:


> I mean, I'm not into hunting or fishing or NFL, but I like NBA and guitars and to be honest I cannot imagine a conversation I would less want to have than discussing birth with a doula. Women can like NBA and guitars too, and men can want to knit or whatever (I sure don't), but ultimately do we recognize that certain traits have some correlation to gender?


I still don't understand this train of thought. Who cares what people like. Men and women date...they find something to talk about. 

I'd rather gouge my eyes out than talk about sports.

Guitars I do love  I have a couple myself but can't play lol. I play piano.

Of course there are some gender lines, because that's how we've been raised and some things are just innate. But not all women like the same topics. I have been with a woman who would fake snore when I got into my birthing talk. LOL! It didn't bother me none, I have friends who were also doulas and we could talk about birth for hours. My husband talks about cars, but not with me. He has friends for that. Big deal.


----------



## BaxJanson

One of the traits that I see is the common complaint that men today don't have any ambition. And it's true, few do. However, ambition hinges rather directly on some traditionally male traits - risk-taking, competitiveness, desire to excel (not that females do not have those traits, but simply that they are viewed as masculine.) When we denigrate masculinity and prop up femininity in young boys, these are the traits you'll see less of.

Furthermore, boys today aren't competing with the neighborhood kids or the rest of their grade. They are exposed to world-wide competition via the internet. Their entire life will be with the acute awareness that there are people out there who FAR exceed anything they will ever accomplish. Like to play the piano? Check out youtube. Enjoy video games? Good luck competing with the kid on the other side of the world who does nothing but play.

The message received is a combination of "everyone will be better than you at everything." and "you should feel bad for even wanting to be better than anyone else." Combine with a learning style designed to teach young women - often drugging boys into compliance - as well as overwhelming media portrayals as men being either idiots or villains, efforts to embrace traditional masculinity as being misogynistic and shameful...

I can't say I blame them for not trying too hard. And it's going to get worse before it gets better.


----------



## John Lee

jld said:


> My husband is, if I am understanding your post correctly.
> 
> If you are secure in yourself, you can listen to other viewpoints. You don't have to agree with them, but you can listen.


Right, but that's being open to YOUR emotions, not being emotionally wide open.


----------



## that_girl

If you want to see how children in the USA will be learning in these next few years, check out the Common Core Standards.

Looks good on paper but when you dig deeper it's just disturbing. Group work, group grades....and other such nonsense.

I resist, but as a teacher I have to go to these meetings to learn how to be more effective  But I worry about our future generation and this CCS nonsense because it really takes away ANY ambition or craving to be the best.


----------



## John Lee

EleGirl said:


> His response was way too high level to be able to actually address any thing meaningful.
> 
> Basicly he said that men want to be talk about how bad women are, besting the crap out of each other and porn.
> 
> Have at it. If those are the hardest issues you (generic you) have, you lead a charmed life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't agree with his post, but there is a point there. Aggression, competition, violence, sex drive, all connected. Sometimes the bad comes with the good.


----------



## movealong

Ever hear of the Red Pill subforum on reddit? Yea. Those kids and young men see the world a whole new way. I feel bad for our society if they ever become what the radical arm of the feminist movement became.


----------



## John Lee

What I see in schools (my wife is a teacher too) is that there is this thing called Special Ed that is entirely filled with boys. The boys that the teachers (almost all women) don't want to deal with for a wide range of reasons. I'm not saying it's all the teachers' fault, it's the way the system is structured. These boys can't concentrate, they can't sit still, they are louder, more aggressive, more rambunctious. We make it less and less ok for boys to be that way -- no recess, no gym, zero tolerance policies.


----------



## Racer

that_girl said:


> That's why men make male friends and women have girl friends. What is your point? ...
> 
> I do like guns though...and survival talk. I like politics and conspiracy theories too. And I can have great conversations with people about it, people who share the same interests.
> 
> And if you were serious about fighting, there is really nothing that feels quite like it when you punch someone. But I can't see having a 2 hour conversation about that, unless we're comparing fight stories. lol.


You pretty much nailed my point. By some people's take, you aren't very girly. Nor is the guy talking about baby poo and diaper war stories... 

It's a state of flux as to what is a man and what is a women. You also aren't looking like your mother.

So where's it going to land? We won't know and it might continue to be state of flux for a really long time. I do think that because of 'how connected' we are and the information age are so heavily influencing us as a society. Our fathers and mothers had the newpaper that described events of the recent past. It was rare to see a story, a idea, or a concept actually develop. So here we are, separated by thousands of miles, talking about the direction of the male persona... Something our parents never imagined much less were influenced by.


----------



## that_girl

John Lee said:


> What I see in schools (my wife is a teacher too) is that there is this thing called Special Ed that is entirely filled with boys. The boys that the teachers (almost all women) don't want to deal with for a wide range of reasons. I'm not saying it's all the teachers' fault, it's the way the system is structured. These boys can't concentrate, they can't sit still, they are louder, more aggressive, more rambunctious. We make it less and less ok for boys to be that way -- no recess, no gym, zero tolerance policies.


Yes, I see this too. It's horrible. My friend does our special day classes and she says there is really no reason the boys belong in there (she had a class of 15. ONE GIRL who was disabled.) The boys were just BOYS. 

I love my boys. They are so funny and bright and keep me on my toes (5th grade). We do have PE and recess and I don't believe in zero tolerance (except in death threats and weapons)...everything is a learning opportunity. But my boys and girls are like night and day. The girls are already so...mature and "so over playing". lol. But I race my boys to the gate every day. Sometimes I let them win


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

I'll bite, Elle. Something men are not really allowed to talk about genuinely; something regularly contorted and misconstrued so as to paint one in a negative light:

When I got married, sex was part of the package. If you don't want to have sex, gtfo. Instead, what actually happened is she forces ME to search out what happened to our sex life. A runaround trying to figure out exactly what niggling thing she is unhappy with when, by all appearances, she was happy as a pig in sh*t. Never a word of being unhappy. By all appearances, she just had no sex drive. 

I damn sure wouldn't have gotten married if there's no sex. It's key to my happiness. But if you bring up lack of sex, you're whiny. The next time, the fact you brought it up will be the reason she doesn't want sex. It's truly awesome. It will always be turned into your fault. Nevermind that before I brought up lack of sex, she'd never brought up any issue with me or unmet need of hers. If you mention your frustration on a forum like this, you're bombarded by women quick to point out that she has no obligation to sleep with you. What did you do to cause her to not want sex? Completely bypassing the fact that if something I did caused it, then she should have brought THAT up first. But you're told that you should focus on jumping through her random selection of hoops that she didn't mention until you brought up the lack of sex... these unmet "emotional needs" that bothered her so much she didn't bring them up. After you mention the sex thing, she will bring up a myriad of things she claims is the problem, but if you're like me, you isolate and focus on them until its definitively proven not the problem. You start to wonder if you've become weak, jumping through hoops... but then realize, you still have all the edge you've ever had, and your mistake has been believing her excuses to be genuine. You fill with resentment and stop caring.

On a forum like this, you're accused of only wanting sex as if wanting sex is exclusive to other feelings, and dismissed when you explain that without sex, those other feelings pack their bags. Then, if you convince anyone your spouse is actually a cold fish, you're advised to leave them.

BUT... when you leave due to lack of sex, you're socially cast as the "bad guy" and a selfish jerk to all parties privy to the information. A poisoned well of mutual friends and even family. A myriad of insulting implications: she didn't want sex? He must be lazy around the house. He must not care about her needs. He must be selfish in bed. All of which keep you pinned from talking about it at all.

Very very few see it as lack of sex driving detachment. They see it as simply shallow. You're some kind of perv or sex addict. You learn very quickly that her critically important emotional needs (ya know, those things that are so important that she didn't bother to mention them until you bring up lack of sex) far outweigh your sexual needs - and you're just a pos for even having those sexual needs. "What is she, your sex slave? If she doesn't want to she doesn't want to" is commonly heard. No, she was my wife, and I expect mutual desire... and I expect anything dampening that desire to be brought up. Not made up after I finally bring forth MY resulting issue. Regardless, a wife of mine who doesn't want sex with me, will not continue being my wife - as far as I'm concerned, this is as critical to me as these ethereal "emotional needs" that get tossed around on forums like this are to women. But for some reason, those emotional needs are given credibility, and sexual needs are a black sheep.

And as a guy, you can't even talk about this crap without being accused of whining, being needy, sex obsessed or otherwise unattractive.

That's some bullsh*t if you ask me. There is definitely a sense of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" to being a modern male. It is what it is and you deal. If you're in my circumstance, you do finally get fvcked though... in the wallet.


----------



## that_girl

Racer said:


> You pretty much nailed my point. By some people's take, you aren't very girly. Nor is the guy talking about baby poo and diaper war stories...
> 
> It's a state of flux as to what is a man and what is a women. You also aren't looking like your mother.
> 
> So where's it going to land? We won't know and it might continue to be state of flux for a really long time. I do think that because of 'how connected' we are and the information age are so heavily influencing us as a society. Our fathers and mothers had the newpaper that described events of the recent past. It was rare to see a story, a idea, or a concept actually develop. So here we are, separated by thousands of miles, talking about the direction of the male persona... Something our parents never imagined much less were influenced by.


I am just me. I think people are becoming more sensitive to the fact that much of our gender roles come from what "they" think the roles should be.

My mom is pretty independent though. lol. I look like her in that aspect. She raised me and paid the bills. 

My gramma was the typical 1950s housewife. Took the abuse like the best of them but dammit she was married 63 years! No one would have lasted in her marriage these days...but she was a good Catholic woman.

And my fight stories are from HS. lol I grew up after that. 

I like people who are just who they want to be. Just be you and to hell with the gender roles. If you try to be what other people want, you will fail. (You as the general you).


----------



## that_girl

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I'll bite. Something men are not really allowed to talk about genuinely; something regularly contorted and misconstrued:
> 
> When I got married, sex was part of the package. If you don't want to have sex, f*cking leave. Instead, what actually happens is she forces ME to search out what happened to our sex life. A runaround trying to figure out exactly what niggling thing she is unhappy with when, by all appearances, she was happy as a pig in sh*t... she just had no sex drive.
> 
> I damn sure wouldn't have gotten married if there's no sex. It's key to my happiness. But if you bring up lack of sex, you're whiny. The next time, the fact you brought it up will be the reason she doesn't want sex. lol It will always be turned into your fault. Nevermind that before I brought up lack of sex, she'd never brought up any issue with me or unmet need of hers. If you mention your frustration on a forum like this, you're bombarded by women quick to point out that she has no obligation to sleep with you. What did you do to cause her to not want sex? Completely bypassing the fact that if something I did caused it, then she should have brought THAT up first. But you're told that you should focus on jumping through her random selection of hoops that she didn't mention until you brought up the lack of sex. All of these she claims is the problem, but if you're like me, you isolate and focus on them until its definitively proven not the problem. You start to wonder if you've become weak... but then realize, you still have all the edge you've ever had, and your mistake has been believing her excuses to be genuine.
> 
> You're accused of only wanting sex as if wanting sex is exclusive to any other feelings, and dismissed when you explain that without sex, those other feelings pack their bags. Then, if you convince anyone your spouse is actually a cold fish, you're advised to leave.
> 
> BUT... when you leave due to lack of sex, you're still cast as the "bad guy" and a selfish jerk to all parties privy to the information. A poisoned well of mutual friends and even family.
> 
> No one sees it as lack of sex driving detachment. They see it as simply shallow. You're some kind of perv or sex addict. You learn very quickly that her previously unmentioned emotional needs far outweigh your sexual needs - and you're just a pos for even having those sexual needs. "What is she, your sex slave? If she doesn't want to she doesn't want to" is commonly heard. No, she was my wife, and I expect mutual desire... and I expect anything dampening that desire to be brought up. Not made up after I finally bring forth MY resulting issue. Regardless, a wife of mine who doesn't want sex, will not continue being my wife - as far as I'm concerned, this is as critical to me as these ethereal "emotional needs" that get tossed around on forums like this are to women. But for some reason, those emotional needs are given credibility, and sexual needs are a black sheep.
> 
> And as a guy, you can't even talk about this crap without being accused of whining, being needy, sex obsessed or otherwise unattractive.
> 
> That's some bullsh*t if you ask me.



It is TOTAL bullshet and I went through the same with my older daughter's father. He never wanted sex. He said "let me instigate! You're like a man!" and then we went FIVE MONTHS without touching. 

I finally said this isn't my life and left. (he was also a jerk).

But to feel bad about YOUR SEXUALITY or your sex drive is wrong. I always thought partners should talk about it to at least understand. But to cut someone down just because they want sex from you is also cruel.

At the time I do not want sex. My husband understands why because he caused it all (long story of his behavior). But I'd never say the things I've been told by people about my sexual desire.

It's not just a man thing to want sex and not get it, and then be ridiculed for wanting it. Promise.

As a woman, I have been called MANY THINGS just because i like sex. I've also been called a man because my sex drive is so high. It's so stupid. I am just me.

But you're no perv or shallow. You married someone you love and you want to feel close and you have needs. That's NORMAL. I bet if you stopped paying your bills she'd have something to say. 

No one gets married to be celibate...to do that to a spouse is wrong....unless like in my situation where your spouse has left multiple times and you are hanging by a thread with his lies and BS.


----------



## that_girl

Ya know...I'm glad I don't look like my grandmother in how she lived her life. When she passed two summers ago, my mom found some journals and they were filled with entries and short stories. This woman, my grandmother, who was Mr. Man's wife for 63 years, and a mother and a grandmother and who made the best gravy....was also a WOMAN! A woman NO ONE KNEW...not even my grandpa. Some entries were about her desire to be a writer or travel or go back to school but she knew my grandpa would say no...her place was in the home. She tried speaking out against him and got beaten. Not slapped. Beaten. My mother remembers seeing that.

I want to be known for ME. ...not some cartoon of what I think society wants me to be. And I think men should feel the same way. Be YOU...not what society thinks you should be.

So while we may romanticize about men and women of the past, the roles were so...rigid. I'm glad my husband isn't like the men from the 50s or I'd have to kick his as$. Women are not to be caged and rescued, men are not brutes that get respect from force. 

I am not alive just so some man can gawk at me. I know people say men are simple creatures, but I don't believe that all they think about is sex and sammiches. Unless it's true, of course, but I don't buy it. 

Sure, the pendulum has swung into some weird, 'men are stupid' territory, but somewhere in the middle is the truth. Marriage and relationships between two people are built on mutual trust, respect, attraction and love. That's it. Be a burly man or a feminine man. Be a girly girl or a tom-boy. Doesn't matter. There's a shoe for every sock.


----------



## EleGirl

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I'll bite, Elle. Something men are not really allowed to talk about genuinely; something regularly contorted and misconstrued so as to paint one in a negative light:
> 
> When I got married, sex was part of the package. If you don't want to have sex, gtfo. Instead, what actually happened is she forces ME to search out what happened to our sex life. A runaround trying to figure out exactly what niggling thing she is unhappy with when, by all appearances, she was happy as a pig in sh*t. Never a word of being unhappy. By all appearances, she just had no sex drive.
> 
> I damn sure wouldn't have gotten married if there's no sex. It's key to my happiness. But if you bring up lack of sex, you're whiny. The next time, the fact you brought it up will be the reason she doesn't want sex. It's truly awesome. It will always be turned into your fault. Nevermind that before I brought up lack of sex, she'd never brought up any issue with me or unmet need of hers. If you mention your frustration on a forum like this, you're bombarded by women quick to point out that she has no obligation to sleep with you. What did you do to cause her to not want sex? Completely bypassing the fact that if something I did caused it, then she should have brought THAT up first. But you're told that you should focus on jumping through her random selection of hoops that she didn't mention until you brought up the lack of sex... these unmet "emotional needs" that bothered her so much she didn't bring them up. After you mention the sex thing, she will bring up a myriad of things she claims is the problem, but if you're like me, you isolate and focus on them until its definitively proven not the problem. You start to wonder if you've become weak, jumping through hoops... but then realize, you still have all the edge you've ever had, and your mistake has been believing her excuses to be genuine. You fill with resentment and stop caring.
> 
> On a forum like this, you're accused of only wanting sex as if wanting sex is exclusive to other feelings, and dismissed when you explain that without sex, those other feelings pack their bags. Then, if you convince anyone your spouse is actually a cold fish, you're advised to leave them.
> 
> BUT... when you leave due to lack of sex, you're socially cast as the "bad guy" and a selfish jerk to all parties privy to the information. A poisoned well of mutual friends and even family. A myriad of insulting implications: she didn't want sex? He must be lazy around the house. He must not care about her needs. He must be selfish in bed. All of which keep you pinned from talking about it at all.
> 
> Very very few see it as lack of sex driving detachment. They see it as simply shallow. You're some kind of perv or sex addict. You learn very quickly that her critically important emotional needs (ya know, those things that are so important that she didn't bother to mention them until you bring up lack of sex) far outweigh your sexual needs - and you're just a pos for even having those sexual needs. "What is she, your sex slave? If she doesn't want to she doesn't want to" is commonly heard. No, she was my wife, and I expect mutual desire... and I expect anything dampening that desire to be brought up. Not made up after I finally bring forth MY resulting issue. Regardless, a wife of mine who doesn't want sex with me, will not continue being my wife - as far as I'm concerned, this is as critical to me as these ethereal "emotional needs" that get tossed around on forums like this are to women. But for some reason, those emotional needs are given credibility, and sexual needs are a black sheep.
> 
> And as a guy, you can't even talk about this crap without being accused of whining, being needy, sex obsessed or otherwise unattractive.
> 
> That's some bullsh*t if you ask me. There is definitely a sense of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" to being a modern male. It is what it is and you deal. If you're in my circumstance, you do finally get fvcked though... in the wallet.


You ex sounds a lot like my ex. Some I men do this same thing. It sucks to be married to a person with a lower sex drive and/or a person who uses sex as a weapon. As it turns out men choose to withhold sex or cause their marriage to be sexless I as often as women do. About 20% of marriages are sexless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

John Lee said:


> What I see in schools (my wife is a teacher too) is that there is this thing called Special Ed that is entirely filled with boys. The boys that the teachers (almost all women) don't want to deal with for a wide range of reasons. I'm not saying it's all the teachers' fault, it's the way the system is structured. These boys can't concentrate, they can't sit still, they are louder, more aggressive, more rambunctious. We make it less and less ok for boys to be that way -- no recess, no gym, zero tolerance policies.


We homeschool, the relaxed way. We have four sons, and I love that they can be active whenever they want, and learn at their own pace, and according to their interests.


----------



## Aspydad

WillinTampa said:


> Like most "trends"and "epidemics" in the news, the demise of men is 95% media BS.
> 
> Men are still men. You have to look a little deeper into these reported trends.
> 
> For example, more women are attending college. Yes, a little more, but the majority of women are majoring in psychology and business and other non-STEM fields. When I studied Engineering in the late 70's there were about 15% women in my classes. That percentage hasn't changed in over 30 years.
> 
> The 21 Century is technical -- women who are planning to take over the World need to change their majors.
> 
> "Women are the breadwinners in The majority of households in America..."
> 
> Yes but... 60% of those "breadwinner mom" households are single mother households -- a small inconvenient technicality.
> 
> Women are no doubt advancing and things are changing for men, but not anywhere near the rate and effect that the alarmist, click-hungry, press blathers on about.
> 
> I think both men and women are going to be just fine in the future.
> 
> There is some truth to the old quip: The more things change, the more they stay the same.
> 
> 
> .


 I do think this is true. Yes there are more women in college mainly because these days one must have a degree to make a decent wage. Way back when my parents graduated high school - 1962 a secretary could make good enough money to support themselves. Nowadays, administrative assistants (as they are referred to these days) generally have a college degree - at least at my company. we don't have secretaries anymore. If you look at any of the engineering schools or any of the top public universities - you will see anywhere from 52-55% Boys to 45-48% girls. There are private colleges - Baylor for example - where it is 55% girls to 45% boys. So if you’re a boy who has parents who can afford $55K per year - this is the school for you - how would like those odds as young guy!!

The main difference I see for kids growing up these days is that everything is just so ramped up as I call it. By 7th grade - you want to play for the junior high or high school sports team - well you better do AAU and work on your sport all year round our don't bother going out for the team. Where as I played multiple sports growing up (baseball, football, hockey, basketball, golf, soccer) and actually played three sports in high school – football, basketball and golf and was able to get playtime in all of them – forget that these days. Scholastically, in high school if you want to be top 10% - you have to take AP classes so you get the extra bonus added to the final grade - kids graduate with 4.6 GPSs these days - WTF is that!! So if my kid takes an AP class and they make a 85% (B) they really get a 100% (A) - say what?? I will tell you this - I have looked at the AP classes that my kids have taken - they do not compare to college - to me it's all a scam!!

My oldest daughter took AP Calculus in 11th grade and made A's and passed the test at the end with a 5. So she had credit for Calculus I and II in college. So she signs up and takes Calculus III thinking she is ready and she struggled big time (C-) because her high school AP experience was NOT equivalent to college Level. To me this new AP crap these schools are coming up with is not worth a damn. My second daughter has taken the AP Classes just to get the bump up - but, she will not do as her sister - for any class that is important to her degree, she will take the college version and not skip with the AP credit. The only AP Class she will count is something like geography or history and not chemistry or calculus which requires a good foundation to take the full complement of courses.

One last thing. We have young engineers at my company that come in and cannot think there way out of a paper box. These kids require way more training than back when I started. They are great with computers – but, if you need to think – look out as they are in trouble. So this ramped up education system that has been unleashed is just way over rated.


----------



## jld

John Lee said:


> Right, but that's being open to YOUR emotions, not being emotionally wide open.


How would you define "emotionally wide open," John?


----------



## jld

Aspydad said:


> My oldest daughter took AP Calculus in 11th grade and made A's and passed the test at the end with a 5. So she had credit for Calculus I and II in college. So she signs up and takes Calculus III thinking she is ready and she struggled big time (C-) because her high school AP experience was NOT equivalent to college Level. To me this new AP crap these schools are coming up with is not worth a damn. My second daughter has taken the AP Classes just to get the bump up - but, she will not do as her sister - for any class that is important to her degree, she will take the college version and not skip with the AP credit. The only AP Class she will count is something like geography or history and not chemistry or calculus which requires a good foundation to take the full complement of courses.


My dd19 is studying chemical engineering, and she told me the same thing about the kids who took AP in high school. They went into classes above their level, and struggled. 

She just started with Calc I, and did great. Same with physics and chem.


----------



## Racer

And my family you could say were ‘odd’. Late-sixties/early seventies, they were hippies. So ya, I lived in a tee-pee and/or pit house on a commune for a bit and have blocked out my macramé memories. They took life a bit more serious as us kids needed something more stable than an art commune: So career, then yuppies and started to travel. Now they are jet setters. 

Raising a ‘renaissance man’ was important to them. So, I travelled abroad, lots of cross country trips, camping, exploring. Lots of art, etiquette lessons, music, history and culture exposure. Tons of encouragement and opportunity to decide for myself my belief systems and likes (though they pressured, as parents do, to their own like church, acceptance, and an open mind). That crossed over into who I was; A romantic, geek friends, jock friends, so on and so forth able to find a balance of accepting other’s… Which played nicely into becoming a Nice Guy when I twisted it so it became about what I believed others wanted from me to be accepted, particularly girls as I started HS and relationships became a ‘big deal’ to find acceptance among peers (both male and female). Glorious external validation can mess you up. 

And I sort of feel like I’m failing my sons. I was too caught up in appeasing others during those formative years that I didn’t expose them to much. I just defaulted to my wife’s idea of a sheltered bubble to keep them ‘safe’. So, they just haven’t experience ‘the world’ as much as watched it through a box.


----------



## that_girl

I don't think men of the past could survive in a society where women know there's more to life than a kitchen and coiffed hair.

If men want to be respected as men, then be what you think a man should be. 

Women don't tell men what to be. I just know that as a woman, I know what I want and don't want in my life and I'm not afraid to voice it. My life isn't here just to take care of others.

But maybe that's the problem...maybe by women becoming stronger, men feel like it took away some of their strength? I may be saying it wrong, but it really made me think. 

Then I just come back to "be you". If you want to be like the men of the past, there are women out there for you. I couldn't be with a man who thought my sole purpose was to be at home doing "wifey things" while he went out on the town and paraded around with his buddies and god knows who else. 

I mean, women of the past turned their eyes from a cheating husband just because it "wasn't her business". LOL Seriously? Is that what is manly?

I dunno...just some thoughts.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

EleGirl said:


> You ex sounds a lot like my ex. Some I men do this same thing. It sucks to be married to a person with a lower sex drive and/or a person who uses sex as a weapon. As it turns out men choose to withhold sex or cause their marriage to be sexless I as often as women do. About 20% of marriages are sexless.


I don't deny that it happens to both sexes. But, and you're welcome to contradict me, it seems like men are simply not allowed to talk about it, or are blamed regardless of scenario.

A woman talks about her husband's low sex drive, and people raise an eyebrow as if to say "wtf is wrong with him?"

A man talks about his wife's low sex drive, and the focus is, "what is HE doing wrong? Oh, you're not meeting her emotional needs." (<-- I love this one... its like an impossibly vague catch all)

Even talking about this sense that men are blamed for everything... responsible for everything... such that I have plenty of double standard examples in support, will get you branded as somehow less manly. We're expected to simultaneously communicate, emote, AND "suck it up" without complaint. Its pretty awesome. haha


----------



## WorkingOnMe

that_girl said:


> Wow.
> 
> So you don't want men to be portrayed a certain way but you treat all women a certain way. Beware women?


No not beware women. Beware the innocent sounding woman. The one who tries to pretend she's "just asking" a simple question, because she's not, she's gathering ammunition. JLD is the master of this, trying to make herself sound like a friend and a sympathetic ear, and then using what she learns to attack.

No, not all women just the one's who aim to deceive.


----------



## that_girl

Racer said:


> And my family you could say were ‘odd’. Late-sixties/early seventies, they were hippies. So ya, I lived in a tee-pee and/or pit house on a commune for a bit and have blocked out my macramé memories. They took life a bit more serious as us kids needed something more stable than an art commune: So career, then yuppies and started to travel. Now they are jet setters.
> 
> Raising a ‘renaissance man’ was important to them. So, I travelled abroad, lots of cross country trips, camping, exploring. Lots of art, etiquette lessons, music, history and culture exposure. Tons of encouragement and opportunity to decide for myself my belief systems and likes (though they pressured, as parents do, to their own like church, acceptance, and an open mind). That crossed over into who I was; A romantic, geek friends, jock friends, so on and so forth able to find a balance of accepting other’s… Which played nicely into becoming a Nice Guy when I twisted it so it became about what I believed others wanted from me to be accepted, particularly girls as I started HS and relationships became a ‘big deal’ to find acceptance among peers (both male and female). Glorious external validation can mess you up.
> 
> And I sort of feel like I’m failing my sons. I was too caught up in appeasing others during those formative years that I didn’t expose them to much. I just defaulted to my wife’s idea of a sheltered bubble to keep them ‘safe’. So, they just haven’t experience ‘the world’ as much as watched it through a box.


And here I thought (from what I've read of your thoughts) that you are some great, cool guy! Someone I'd want to know in life. 

Most parents these days want to protect their children to a fault. It is ruining people as a whole. Don't let that hurt you. Just take your kids out of the box NOW.  Not all is lost.


----------



## that_girl

WorkingOnMe said:


> No not beware women. Beware the innocent sounding woman. The one who tries to pretend she's "just asking" a simple question, because she's not, she's gathering ammunition. JLD is the master of this, trying to make herself sound like a friend and a sympathetic ear, and then using what she learns to attack.
> 
> No, not all women just the one's who aim to deceive.


Got it. So you've been burned by this person personally so then beware all innocent sounding women.  lol. Sometimes I just ask a question because I don't understand...I don't want to throw it back at you.


----------



## that_girl

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I don't deny that it happens to both sexes. But, and you're welcome to contradict me, it seems like men are simply not allowed to talk about it, or are blamed regardless of scenario.
> 
> A woman talks about her husband's low sex drive, and people raise an eyebrow as if to say "wtf is wrong with him?"
> 
> A man talks about his wife's low sex drive, and the focus is, "what is HE doing wrong? Oh, you're not meeting her emotional needs." (<-- I love this one... its like an impossibly vague catch all)
> 
> Even talking about this sense that men are blamed for everything... responsible for everything... such that I have plenty of double standard examples in support, will get you branded as somehow less manly. We're expected to simultaneously communicate, emote, AND "suck it up" without complaint. Its pretty awesome. haha


SO TRUE! 

ALthough, I didn't talk about it for a long time because people would think what is wrong with ME...because all men love sex all the time so it must be ME with the problem or he isn't attracted to ME. 

Personally, hindsight tells me he was a major cheater. But oh well, that was 15 years ago and we don't even talk


----------



## WorkingOnMe

that_girl said:


> Got it. So you've been burned by this person personally so then beware all innocent sounding women.  lol. Sometimes I just ask a question because I don't understand...I don't want to throw it back at you.


lol you never sound all that innocent TG! I think you're a pretty straight shooter.


----------



## that_girl

WorkingOnMe said:


> lol you never sound all that innocent TG! I think you're a pretty straight shooter.


Well, fine. lol.


----------



## John Lee

Just today in the office, a few of us are talking about how summer camp, about how we don't really like swimming in lakes and how we're not that into camping. A woman sitting in the lunchroom with us (a higher up, btw) calls us "pansies." As it happens, she's into camping and stuff. Whatever, I know she's "joking" and no hurt feelings here, but this is the kind of thing that would never be tolerated the other way around. A few weeks ago some of the dad in the office got called "wussy" by another female higher-up for not wanting to make start time earlier since we're all involved in getting our kids places in the morning. We were "wussy" for being involved with our kids. Maybe I just have some strange women in my office, maybe they're just an older generation. But that seems like the double standard we face. Even when a woman "compliments" you for being involved with your kids I almost always detect a discomfort underneath it. "He's a good father and provider" is almost always followed by "but..."


----------



## that_girl

John Lee said:


> Just today in the office, a few of us are talking about how summer camp, about how we don't really like swimming in lakes and how we're not that into camping. A woman sitting in the lunchroom with us (a higher up, btw) calls us "pansies." As it happens, she's into camping and stuff. Whatever, I know she's "joking" and no hurt feelings here, but this is the kind of thing that would never be tolerated the other way around. A few weeks ago some of the dad in the office got called "wussy" by another female higher-up for not wanting to make start time earlier since we're all involved in getting our kids places in the morning. We were "wussy" for being involved with our kids. Maybe I just have some strange women in my office, maybe they're just an older generation. But that seems like the double standard we face. Even when a woman "compliments" you for being involved with your kids I almost always detect a discomfort underneath it. "He's a good father and provider" is almost always followed by "but..."


That sounds horrible and sexist and I hate that crap. Turn it on her now...she likes camping, how dykey of her. Or very manly of her. Wrong. She likes camping. You don't. So what.

I was always told I was "too white" by my colleagues when working in South Central. "Girl, you are just too white. Get some sun!" Imagine if I said they were "too black"? Holy CRAP!

If you don't like camping, then you don't like camping (although if you camped with me, you'd LOVE IT ) If you are involved with your children that's a great thing. Stand up for that. It's usually people without children that don't get it. Or people who have children but aren't invested. 

I don't stay after school. Ever. I have kids of my own to deal with. My male boss DOES NOT GET IT. "Oh, I know you won't stay after for this because you're a Moooom." Damn straight, I am, douche bag.

Maybe those people are just jealous that they don't have children? I dunno. I know my career is not my life....and I think that bothers people who make their career their life.


----------



## John Lee

Actually, I do like camping, and hiking, and all that, I just don't like swimming in lakes.


----------



## that_girl

John Lee said:


> Actually, I do like camping, and hiking, and all that, I just don't like swimming in lakes.


Me neither. I was just talking to my husband about this. Fresh water skeeves me out and god help me if I touch the bottom of a lake. GROSS.

But still, her perceptions of what men should be have probably been tainted by the media or things she reads. She projected that onto you guys because it perhaps made her feel weird for doing what she does if men don't even like doing it.

I dunno. I try not to associate with people who can't just let people be who they are without name calling.

What's worse is that you probably feel you can't say anything or you'll be ridiculed more. Whereas a woman could complain to her super and get a man in trouble for "name calling" or "harassment" or whatever they call it.


----------



## jld

John and that_girl, it is all because of traditional power dynamics. It is changing, though. 

John, if you wanted to report that woman to HR, you could. And tg, I bet you could report that teachers who made the white comments, too, if you wanted to.


----------



## EleGirl

WorkingOnMe said:


> No not beware women. Beware the innocent sounding woman. The one who tries to pretend she's "just asking" a simple question, because she's not, she's gathering ammunition. JLD is the master of this, trying to make herself sound like a friend and a sympathetic ear, and then using what she learns to attack.
> 
> No, not all women just the one's who aim to deceive.


I was the one who asked the question, not Jld. So this post via is an attack/insult of me.

I asked an honest question hoping to get some good, discussion going. 

Your ascribing some motive yo me that you fabric is your problem. It has nothing to do with the reality of why i asked the question.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## that_girl

jld said:


> John and that_girl, it is all because of traditional power dynamics. It is changing, though.
> 
> John, if you wanted to report that woman to HR, you could. And tg, I bet you could report that teachers who made the white comments, too, if you wanted to.


I switched schools for proximity reasons. Now I work 3 miles from home--- not 40. But I did tell one woman who said it to me that if the tables were turned it wouldn't go over well. 

But what is John going to say about this woman? I mean, in people's mind he will be the "wuss". no?

I can see how men get the short end of the stick in many situations. They can't show weakness or feelings but things do bother them....except they can't say they are bothered because it's not the MANLY thing to do. Just suck it up and move on. 

That has got to be a crappy way to live.


----------



## ntamph

I'm glad that at least some people are waking up to the fact that men want and deserve to be involved in their children's lives as much as women and are just as capable.

I haven't seen or heard women calling involved fathers "wussies." The exact opposite, they are seen as super dads and there are too few of them. I will never sacrifice watching any future kids of mine grow up so that my company can add a little more to the bottom line. I think my GF would understand that sentiment.

My company does give paid paternity love (thankfully). I can't imagine watching a kid grow up and just assuming that they will always be closer to mom and my job is disciplinarian and provider. I want as much closeness as anyone else.


----------



## jld

that_girl said:


> I switched schools for proximity reasons. Now I work 3 miles from home--- not 40. But I did tell one woman who said it to me that if the tables were turned it wouldn't go over well.
> 
> But what is John going to say about this woman? I mean, in people's mind he will be the "wuss". no?
> 
> I can see how men get the short end of the stick in many situations. They can't show weakness or feelings but things do bother them....except they can't say they are bothered because it's not the MANLY thing to do. Just suck it up and move on.
> 
> That has got to be a crappy way to live.


I realize it would be hard, but he could just say, "I feel hurt when I hear that," or "I feel disrespected when I hear that." If it really bothers him, that would be the assertive thing to do.

My husband's boss is a woman, and she has done a lot of things he does not agree with. He is still polite to her, goes the extra mile in many ways, etc. And he has a thick skin. Things that would bother me just roll off his back.

She is the one who will ultimately pay for her words and actions. We all do.


----------



## that_girl

And that's what many people don't understand. The company doesn't give a CRAP about you. They want money and you help get money.

So you may waste a whole lifetime working at this company and then die and then what? You worked at a company that gave you a watch and replaced you the next day.

I love seeing men be dads. I don't see it as being wussy. I see it as being a dad.  That's why men have a parental name like moms do. Dad. It's a name that means so much, doesn't it?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

that_girl said:


> But maybe that's the problem...maybe by women becoming stronger, men feel like it took away some of their strength? I may be saying it wrong, but it really made me think.


I'm going to reword you a bit...

It's not strength, its role. The role of men in society is greatly diminished. There was a clear place, but with women joining the ranks of several roles, that place is not so clear any longer for men. Throw in a seeming onslaught against the myriad widely held to be masculine behaviors, and you have a mess. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for equality, I'm just bringing up one interesting consequence.

Classical men, bring certain elements that women generally don't. A way of being, handling problems and asserting themselves, that is different from women, but valuable imo. But many of these things are frowned upon today.

If you were bullied, these Dads said to pop that f-er in the mouth. Stand up for yourself and you won't be bullied anymore. Fighting was frowned upon, but there was always a sense that when push comes to shove - you fight back. A black eye as a right of passage. You'll heal. They'll heal. But there was honor to it. Something respectable - a thing most men seem to really get about it, even while understanding it shouldn't be over encouraged.

Today we say go cry to an adult, who in all probability will be totally ineffectual. We live in the era of carrying grudges - that fester, passive aggression and children snapping and shooting a class mate. No honor, just revenge for an endless sea of slights taken on the chin.

In parenting, I think the tendency toward distance in fathers makes sense, to a degree. Mothers shower attention, encouragement and compassion - and anything we are showered with becomes watered down. Meanwhile, it was a BIG deal if you impressed dad. Dad is the school of hard knocks. Figure it out kid. Fall. Get hurt. Now get your @ss up and try again. Don't b8tch about it, do something about it. Don't expect someone to come running with band aids. If you're misbehaving, it was a BIG DEAL if Dad has to step in.

They actually use this method in Marine Corps Basic Training. There are 3 drill instructors you see all the time. Then there is a senior drill instructor, who you rarely see. The few times you see him, he's really inspiring and motivating... or he's disappointed and you're being punished. In a very short time, you feel bad for disappointing this man. Its entirely different from how you feel about the other DIs. 

In turning fathers into nurturing mothers, I think we're losing some of these elements. Dad kisses your @ss just as much as mom does, because he's a modern involved, affectionate, compassionate father, bubble wrapping his children just like Mom. And as a result, we're rearing a generation of soft, narcissistic, passive aggressive young men who were over doted upon.

In my humble opinion of course.


----------



## EleGirl

ntamph said:


> I'm glad that at least some people are waking up to the fact that men want and deserve to be involved in their children's lives as much as women and are just as capable.
> 
> I haven't seen or heard women calling involved fathers "wussies." The exact opposite, they are seen as super dads and there are too few of them. I will never sacrifice watching any future kids of mine grow up so that my company can add a little more to the bottom line. I think my GF would understand that sentiment.
> 
> My company does give paid paternity love (thankfully). I can't imagine watching a kid grow up and just assuming that they will always be closer to mom and my job is disciplinarian and provider. I want as much closeness as anyone else.


Where I work most of the men with young children are very involved. They take turns with the mothers doing what is needed. Most of the women are married to men who do the same. 

Men being very involved in child rearing is not new. The books and articles I have read written during the time of transition into the industrial economy warn that men leaving the farm and/or home business was going to lead to the distruction of the family. This is hecause wonen would be left to raise children alone and boys would be raised by their mother and not their fathers. It used to be that when a boy reached 5, he boy worked along side his father to learn how yo do the fathers job. The girls 5 and older worked aside their mother.

What some consider normal with a woman staying home raising kids and the father gone is relatively new in the history of humankind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## always_alone

EleGirl said:


> Basicly he said that men want to be talk about how bad women are, besting the crap out of each other and porn.
> 
> Have at it. If those are the hardest issues you (generic you) have, you lead a charmed life.


And in my experience, men who are into that have no problem talking about it at all. :scratchhead:


----------



## that_girl

I so agree with that, Dvls  Thank you for finding my word...I knew I wasn't getting it across right.

As a woman, I do like feeling secure in my relationship. I do like feeling protected. I like giving that back as well.

I am a strong woman and I won't be any different to appease a person who may not be so strong in their own Self. 

I raise my kids like you wrote above. I run my classroom like what you wrote above (well, I can't advocate fights but I don't step in right away when I see a bullied kid FINALLY wackin some obnoxious as$.) Now husbands and men on TV are portrayed as a woman's toy almost. I think they even share jeans 

But I can see how this is changing dynamics for men. Especially the boys who grow up seeing women being strong (which is nothing wrong), but then thinking, "WHERE DO I FIT IN? WHAT IS MY ROLE HERE?!" especially since we use to portray strong men AND women in relationships (helloooo Mr. and Mrs. Huxtable. They had a GREAT balance on TV).


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Quick note to my post... when I say "more distant" in reference to fathers, I don't mean uninvolved. I mean, involved in a way quite different than mom. Less nurturing and compassionate... more disciplinary and empowering/motivating. Mom is always telling you you're great and special. Dad holds back a little more, praise isn't so easy... and there's a psychology to it I think... an increased desire to earn Dad's pride. The two approaches complement each other, instilling a sense that while you're special just for being you, you also have to earn your way.

I don't think Dad should be a copy of Mom... but hey, I'm no parenting expert.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

that_girl said:


> "WHERE DO I FIT IN? WHAT IS MY ROLE HERE?!"


Well, if TV is any indication, the role is apparently to be some woman's bumbling idiot and grateful for it.


----------



## that_girl

I don't think people should be praised for everything they do. Work hard and have goals. That's my advice for my kids. 

But I see your point. Dads are not moms and visa versa. But sometimes they are both. Moms are dads and dads are moms. It gets tricky.


----------



## that_girl

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Well, if TV is any indication, the role is apparently to be some woman's bumbling idiot and grateful for it.


Ain't that the truth these days. It wasn't 20 years ago!

My most hated show is "Everybody Loves Raymond". If the roles were reversed, it would be deemed abusive and blah blah against women.

That wife is vile. I want to slap her. The show isn't allowed in my home.


----------



## NobodySpecial

that_girl said:


> OMG The way men are portrayed on TV and commercials really irritates me! Men look like stupid baffoons and some woman has to come rescue or ridicule him.


How about Rick and Daryl???


----------



## ScarletBegonias

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Well, if TV is any indication, the role is apparently to be some woman's bumbling idiot and grateful for it.


no.no.no. I'd rather be single than have my husband morph into the idiot men of tv.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

This is why I have a love/hate relationship with Big Bang Theory. I absolutely despise the way Penny treats Leonard and how he reacts to her.We're all supposed to get barrels of funny hahas from it but I think it's disgusting. 

I love the dynamic between just the girls and just the guys but when they start interacting in couples I want to hurt the writers.


----------



## that_girl

NobodySpecial said:


> How about Rick and Daryl???


Daryl isn't married  Rick....well....I have issues with him. lol.

I meant men on TV in marriages on TV.


----------



## nice777guy

that_girl said:


> Ain't that the truth these days. It wasn't 20 years ago!
> 
> My most hated show is "Everybody Loves Raymond". If the roles were reversed, it would be deemed abusive and blah blah against women.
> 
> That wife is vile. I want to slap her. The show isn't allowed in my home.


But the show was written by a man - stars a man - and made that same man a $hitload of money.

If the entertainment industry was dominated by women, it would be a completely different story.


----------



## that_girl

nice777guy said:


> But the show was written by a man - stars a man - and made that same man a $hitload of money.
> 
> If the entertainment industry was dominated by women, it would be a completely different story.


Yep. Money.

It's still a crappy show. My friends laugh at it because they also laugh at their husbands. Nice.


----------



## nice777guy

that_girl said:


> Yep. Money.
> 
> It's still a crappy show. My friends laugh at it because they also laugh at their husbands. Nice.


Ray Ramano laughed all the way to the bank.

I'm just not buying into the whole "men as vicitims" BS. So often we do it to ourselves.


----------



## movealong

nice777guy said:


> Ray Ramano laughed all the way to the bank.
> 
> I'm just not buying into the whole "men as vicitims" BS. So often we do it to ourselves.


Men want to get laid. Many of them will buy into anything that they think will serve that end, including becoming subserviant to their wife.


----------



## that_girl

nice777guy said:


> Ray Ramano laughed all the way to the bank.
> 
> I'm just not buying into the whole "men as vicitims" BS. So often we do it to ourselves.


Yea, in that instance you did do it to yourselves.

And in commercials, I guess men can choose to not do those parts.

You wouldn't see me in a commercial getting spanked by her husband unless it was a naughty commercial  Rawr.

SO if it's run by money, and men do this to themselves, why complain about it?


----------



## NobodySpecial

unbelievable said:


> Our society does all in it's power to prevent boys and men from behaving like males.


I think the entire point is to redefine what it means to be male. This is the world we live in. Successful men are going to figure out how to continue to be male in the new world. Unsuccessful men are going to be the ones who whine about the good old days. 

There are differences between men and women, clearly. Somebody on this thread mentioned violence and the thrill of beating someone. I think this is not actually the core of maleness. Testosterone generates aggression. (Anyone interested in this topic as it relates to young sons, take a read of "The Wonder o Boys".) But aggression needn't result in violence. Violence and taking pleasure in beating the crap out of someone is basically evil. Aggression is a value neutral quality which can be applied to something like enjoying beating the crap out of someone (bad) or enjoying competitive sports (potentially good) or martial arts (very good) or competitive chess...

The world is different. Happy men will learn how to remain true to themselves, their masculinity while living in equality with women. It is not that hard. You see it in practice in the north east all the time.


----------



## movealong

that_girl said:


> SO if it's run by money, and men do this to themselves, why complain about it?


I dislike it because so many boys are being raised by single moms. They don't have a dad there to show them the difference. This has been the pendulum swing since the late 60's. Humans are, well, human. And when they divorce the animosity makes them do things as a single parent to "get back" at the spouse that they would rarely do in a marriage. imo.


----------



## EleGirl

nice777guy said:


> Ray Ramano laughed all the way to the bank.
> 
> I'm just not buying into the whole "men as vicitims" BS. So often we do it to ourselves.


I agree. Men are the ones writing the shows, often the main characters and who earn the big bucks off this. 

If some want to complain, go complain to the men peddling the crap. 

I just don't watch it. That is the best way to vote No.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## that_girl

movealong said:


> Men want to get laid. Many of them will buy into anything that they think will serve that end, including becoming subserviant to their wife.


YUCK! lol. If my husband became subservient to me, that would be a huge turn off.

Be my partner...not my servant. 

But I'm sure there are women who would like that. I'm just not one of them.


----------



## nice777guy

that_girl said:


> Yea, in that instance you did do it to yourselves.
> 
> And in commercials, I guess men can choose to not do those parts.
> 
> You wouldn't see me in a commercial getting spanked by her husband unless it was a naughty commercial  Rawr.
> 
> SO if it's run by money, and men do this to themselves, why complain about it?


Easier to see yourself as a victim sometimes than to take responsibility. 

If people don't respect me, I'm not going to blame Ray Ramano. Or my grade school homeroom teachers.

If I was unhappy, I could maybe lay some blame on my parents. But at 42, what would be the point?


----------



## that_girl

I guess I just don't see the humor in treating your spouse like shet on the bottom of your shoe....male or female.


----------



## EleGirl

movealong said:


> Men want to get laid. Many of them will buy into anything that they think will serve that end, including becoming subserviant to their wife.


Then he has made a choice. He is not a victim. There are other I choices he could have made.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

There's another side to it I think... that I'm not going to characterize as good or bad:

I have a friend who refers to his wife as Swimbo (phonetic for the acronym, SWMBO - "She Who Must Be Obeyed"). He's a perfectly healthy, happy dude... not a pushover in any sense. Great guy. The first few times I met his wife, I was expecting her to be some hardline bish... and he at her beck and call. It wasn't the case. He distinctly wears the proverbial pants in the family... but has quite a hands off approach to things. Their relationship looks like an executive/secretary relationship. She pretty much manages everything, and he makes the money, and mostly deals in big decisions and overall course.

Yet he calls her Swimbo, in a totally affectionate sense.


----------



## Racer

that_girl said:


> And here I thought (from what I've read of your thoughts) that you are some great, cool guy! Someone I'd want to know in life.
> 
> Most parents these days want to protect their children to a fault. It is ruining people as a whole. Don't let that hurt you. Just take your kids out of the box NOW.  Not all is lost.


God, I hate to bust your bubble… but I’m dull as hell. 

And it makes me sad that this was my thought. A genuine complement given, and it sets off a “I’m a loser and fake” chain of thoughts like I should argue against it. I can’t take things on face value for some reason. It is something I’ve been trying desperately to break and continue to fail to do. I think the worst stuff about myself, so it’s going to be damn hard to turn it around when I rip my own self-esteem or self-worth by default now. 

It goes back to “they”, “them” and the expectations you feel they have for you. My wife accels at counterpointing anything I might feel some sense of worth in. It’s natural and flows out of her (and is somewhat the normal wife reaction). 

Me getting home after a day of racing back in the day, _“I did great today, won my class, and really ripped it up!" _I’m standing there beaming holding a trophy. 

Her; _“That’s nice. I watched the kids all day while you were playing, dinner isn’t cooked, the kitchen is a mess, and I didn’t accomplish anything. I can’t believe you have a race next weekend too… Maybe I need to call my Mom because I can’t do this alone. Do you have to go? When are you going to take our son out and teach him to ride a bike? The kids need you Racer, and you are off working on your stupid car, racing, and spending money while we’re stuck at home trying to take care of everything.”_​And I quit racing 2003. I quit a lot of stuff because she had this way of making it the right choice; What “they” (fathers & husbands) should be. It didn’t make me happy, feel cool, or special in any way. I did what needed to be done and felt it to be the right choice. I became boring and focused on what I allowed her to define for me: “They” (fathers & husbands), do ‘this’.

So what is the male role? The cool guy racing around a track or the Dad out on the driveway teaching his kids to ride a bike? I had to make a choice and couldn’t cake eat…..

The reward? Boring Daddy sort is not attractive as a fire suit and smell of gasoline. A SA-WW out to find ‘excitement’ in an otherwise boring life of suburban parenting where her “they” (husbands and fathers) aren’t the same as “them” (the guy they want to bonk).


----------



## John Lee

Sometimes I have to be the one to do "mom" stuff -- it's just the way it is, because we both work, and I'm there in the morning and my wife is already gone. Being responsible is more important than conforming to an image. Responsible is "manly" imo. So if that means picking out a cute outfit and brushing/bereting hair, so be it.


----------



## that_girl

John Lee said:


> Sometimes I have to be the one to do "mom" stuff -- it's just the way it is, because we both work, and I'm there in the morning and my wife is already gone. Being responsible is more important than conforming to an image. Responsible is "manly" imo. So if that means picking out a cute outfit and brushing/bereting hair, so be it.


And I just see that as parent stuff.

We both make the baby. Men can do hair too. lol.


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## that_girl

Racer said:


> God, I hate to bust your bubble… but I’m dull as hell.
> 
> And it makes me sad that this was my thought. A genuine complement given, and it sets off a “I’m a loser and fake” chain of thoughts like I should argue against it. I can’t take things on face value for some reason. It is something I’ve been trying desperately to break and continue to fail to do. I think the worst stuff about myself, so it’s going to be damn hard to turn it around when I rip my own self-esteem or self-worth by default now.
> 
> It goes back to “they”, “them” and the expectations you feel they have for you. My wife accels at counterpointing anything I might feel some sense of worth in. It’s natural and flows out of her (and is somewhat the normal wife reaction).
> 
> Me getting home after a day of racing back in the day, _“I did great today, won my class, and really ripped it up!" _I’m standing there beaming holding a trophy.
> 
> Her; _“That’s nice. I watched the kids all day while you were playing, dinner isn’t cooked, the kitchen is a mess, and I didn’t accomplish anything. I can’t believe you have a race next weekend too… Maybe I need to call my Mom because I can’t do this alone. Do you have to go? When are you going to take our son out and teach him to ride a bike? The kids need you Racer, and you are off working on your stupid car, racing, and spending money while we’re stuck at home trying to take care of everything.”_​And I quit racing 2003. I quit a lot of stuff because she had this way of making it the right choice; What “they” (fathers & husbands) should be. It didn’t make me happy, feel cool, or special in any way. I did what needed to be done and felt it to be the right choice. I became boring and focused on what I allowed her to define for me: “They” (fathers & husbands), do ‘this’.
> 
> So what is the male role? The cool guy racing around a track or the Dad out on the driveway teaching his kids to ride a bike? I had to make a choice and couldn’t cake eat…..
> 
> The reward? Boring Daddy sort is not attractive as a fire suit and smell of gasoline. A SA-WW out to find ‘excitement’ in an otherwise boring life of suburban parenting where her “they” (husbands and fathers) aren’t the same as “them” (the guy they want to bonk).


When you married your wife, you were racing? She probably loved that  

You cannot do it as a hobby? I don't think it's fair you should give it up. How old are your kids? Can't you teach them about racing? about cars?

You're hardly dull. We all get into the mundane course of parenthood (DUDE...I'm off all summer with my kids and while I do things with them throughout the week, I am not an entertainer nor am I stocked with cash and I'm LOSING MY MIND :lol: I miss work.  ) but even though we get caught in the raising of the people, we gotta hold on to US. I love to paint and sing. When I don't do it, I get irritated and dull.

I dunno...I hope you don't feel like you're not "allowed" to be yourself. Should your wife call her mother for help? Probably so....cause if your wife fell in love with and married a racer, then that's part of the life.


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## GusPolinski

John Lee said:


> Sometimes I have to be the one to do "mom" stuff -- it's just the way it is, because we both work, and I'm there in the morning and my wife is already gone. Being responsible is more important than conforming to an image. Responsible is "manly" imo. So *if that means picking out a cute outfit* and brushing/bereting hair, so be it.


As a man, I'd feel a deep moral and ethical responsibility to all men everywhere to dress my child as hilariously and ridiculously as possible, take pics, and then post them on Facebook. I'm pretty sure that, from that point on out, Mrs. Gus would have the clothes laying out the night before. :smthumbup:


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## Tall Average Guy

Racer said:


> And I quit racing 2003. I quit a lot of stuff because she had this way of making it the right choice; What “they” (fathers & husbands) should be. It didn’t make me happy, feel cool, or special in any way. I did what needed to be done and felt it to be the right choice. I became boring and focused on what I allowed her to define for me: “They” (fathers & husbands), do ‘this’.


The most difficult thing I had to learn in being a man was to be selfish at times. Being a good dad and husband can very quickly turn into being at the end of the line all the time. That can be disastrous. Carving out something for yourself is critical.



> So what is the male role? The cool guy racing around a track or the Dad out on the driveway teaching his kids to ride a bike? I had to make a choice and couldn’t cake eat…..


Why not both? Its about balance. If racing prevents you from spending any time with your kids, then it likely is too much. But I work with a guy who races (motorcycles) and he makes sure that he sets aside time for the family as well. He cut back his racing to 1-2 times a month (and none in the winter). Now, his kids come with and help him. But he taught them to ride bikes himself.


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## that_girl

Being selfish isn't always wrong.

As a woman, I REFUSE to lose my identity into the roles of wife and mother. Ew. How unattractive. No one fell in love with me because I was a good wife and mother. They fell in love with ME.

Be selfish in the best sense of the word. Take your kids to race events. Foster a love of racing in them too and now it's a family thing.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Racer said:


> So what is the male role? The cool guy racing around a track or the Dad out on the driveway teaching his kids to ride a bike? I had to make a choice and couldn’t cake eat…..
> 
> The reward? Boring Daddy sort is not attractive as a fire suit and smell of gasoline. A SA-WW out to find ‘excitement’ in an otherwise boring life of suburban parenting where her “they” (husbands and fathers) aren’t the same as “them” (the guy they want to bonk).


This is my role... (hope you don't mind if I share some mostly older pics, some wayyy old)


When I work, my kids work.



















When I want to hike. I take them hiking.










When I want to race. I take them racing.










I offer them my passions.



















I teach them that its critically important to build sandcastles, even though they always get washed away.










Sometimes, its even okay to flip out.










(I have some awesome pics of my daughter flipping with my help when she was a toddler, but don't have access to them atm grrr)


You can do that... and still be a suburban hottie. Yeah, I see you peekin' out your window neighbor lady.










In the end, your kids think you're Batman... and its pretty cool.


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## that_girl

And that's a great dad right there 

My dad taught me the art of construction and dry wall vs. plaster. He was a dry-wallist (word? LOL) and loved his profession.

I know a ton from helping me dad build shet. I know which nails to use for which projects and I know how important it is to respect tools. 

You don't have to choose between parenthood and who you are, Racer. You can incorporate them.  That's what I learned to do. For a while I was just mom and wife. zzzzzzzzzz omg. I was a horribly sad person. Now I just let the kids get involved. 

You love to race. You probably miss it. So what difference if you're doing it (with the kids involved) or not doing it and wishing you were which makes you not 100% available to your kids?

I dunno...


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## DvlsAdvc8

I quit racing when my daughter was born (its pretty dangerous). But I've always done track days and brought them. Nowadays, its a whole weekend at the track... we camp with my friends and/or family. Its a good time. I'm on track for 20 mins at a time, then off track for the next 40... so aside from making settings adjustments, there's a lot of time to hang out with them. Everyone has come to know them.


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## that_girl

Well, that's good.

I know the track life well...my husband races cars and wants to race motos. I don't say no...he's grown. Life is dangerous. live it.

But it's good your keep doing what you do. It doesn't have to be all or nothing with our choices.

Do I go to as much live music as I used to? No. It's expensive. BUT...I did get tickets for Paul McCartney (my LOVE!) in August for me and my daughter. It's her 15th bday present and she's STOKED. I may not go to my shows as much but I instilled my love for music in my kids. Good music too


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## DvlsAdvc8

I get my live music fix from local artists. Uber cheap.


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## that_girl

i did that often when I lived in a place that had that.

Now, oye...not so much where I live.


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## Mr. Nail

Oh I just hate it when a topic that I'm interested pops up and I don't see it until 7 pages have passed and all the interesting stuff is already discussed. Now I've read 9 pages but not the referenced articles and the topic has finally wandered back to a place I can enter.
Over the course of my adult life society has slowly shifted from the evil patriarchal base to the matriarchal lead which we were all assured would bring world peace and prosperity. Well meet the new boss same, as the old boss. We got fooled again.
My observation leads me to believe that men in general will become whatever you expect of them. If you expect them to be buffoons that is what you get. Now women value "funny" in male partners. back on topic. If you tell a young men that men aren't reliable he will become unreliable. If you insist that all men are cheaters, he will not expect to be anything else. 
I'm not sure that women are quite this way. 
Many on this topic have stated that we are on a course correction we have moved too far and need to find a middle road where men and women can work together as equals. Well in order for that to happen women will have to start expecting more of men. Men, in large have done o. k. at accepting women. Women needed to be stronger. Now is the time for them to use their strength and the feminine quality of nurturing together to expect more, and accept less. Men also need to join the reformation. They need to band together to be seen being manly. They need to be visible examples of the ideal. 
Now we are to the current direction of the thread. How parental roles and parenting actions can affect the shape of the rising generation male and female. If one parent is permissive and one is disciplinary, that sends the wrong message. It says my spouse said this rule but I don't respect them enough to enforce it. So equal partners show a united front. Second we both are able to take care of all of the necessary parenting functions. No job is too low or too complicated, and we trust each other to be able to do it.
You get the idea of the environment that we need to foster regardless of what mainstream media is showing.
A little more about how exactly to expect more. I've got to go to my roots here. In scouting we don't say " A scout should be trustworthy" We say "A Scout is Trustworthy" and then we act as if that ideal was already true, until it become so. A boy who has high expectations will have high character as a man. A little more about accepting less. We don't accept bulling, We don't accept emotional abuse, we can not afford to accept mocking of men in pop media. At the very least we say something. 
That is not all I have to say, but it is enough for the moment
MN


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## DvlsAdvc8

Man... I couldn't find this one pic I wanted to post.

Its of me rushing to change my son's diaper at the track in full leathers with my helmet on. My group was the next to go on track and just when I'm about to head to the hot pit, my son is like "I smell poo poo!" Fastest diaper change of all time. 

Sexiest pic evaaarrrrrrr. lol


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## Caribbean Man

Dvl's, I like your pics man.

Seeing the one with the races reminded me of when I was single.

I used to drag race [ illegal] a lot. It was like a drug to me.
Lost a couple of friends who died in various accidents.

But after i got married, I gave it up.
Too dangerous for my wife's liking.

She also wanted me to stop scuba diving , but I held on to that.
She's cool with the hunting trips though.


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## Enginerd

that_girl said:


> That sounds horrible and sexist and I hate that crap. Turn it on her now...she likes camping, how dykey of her. Or very manly of her. Wrong. She likes camping. You don't. So what.
> 
> I was always told I was "too white" by my colleagues when working in South Central. "Girl, you are just too white. Get some sun!" Imagine if I said they were "too black"? Holy CRAP!
> 
> If you don't like camping, then you don't like camping (although if you camped with me, you'd LOVE IT ) If you are involved with your children that's a great thing. Stand up for that. It's usually people without children that don't get it. Or people who have children but aren't invested.
> 
> I don't stay after school. Ever. I have kids of my own to deal with. My male boss DOES NOT GET IT. "Oh, I know you won't stay after for this because you're a Moooom." Damn straight, I am, douche bag.
> 
> Maybe those people are just jealous that they don't have children? I dunno. I know my career is not my life....and I think that bothers people who make their career their life.



Taught in South Central LA? I thought you were a tough cookie reading your posts, but now I know you are. By the way, once I moved out of So Cal people stopped telling me I was too white. I use to get that at the time whether I was at Zuma beach or playing basketball at Balboa park .


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## that_girl

Enginerd said:


> Taught in South Central LA? I thought you were a tough cookie reading your posts, but now I know you are. By the way, once I moved out of So Cal people stopped telling me I was too white. I use to get that at the time whether I was at Zuma beach or playing basketball at Balboa park .


HA! I was near Zuma yesterday. Balboa park in Encino? Or Newport?


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## Enginerd

that_girl said:


> HA! I was near Zuma yesterday. Balboa park in Encino? Or Newport?



Encino. I grew up in the Valley.


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## that_girl

Enginerd said:


> Encino. I grew up in the Valley.


Nice  I live about a mile from Lake Balboa.


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## Enginerd

that_girl said:


> Nice  I live about a mile from Lake Balboa.



I remember seeing Van Nuys as your location so I knew you were totally a Valley girl. I still have a valley accent even though I've been gone for like 20 years.


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## that_girl

Psh, I'm from Dana Point. Only lived here for 5 years. 

Sorry to be off topic!


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## Racer

Caribbean Man said:


> Seeing the one with the races reminded me of when I was single.
> 
> I used to drag race [ illegal] a lot. It was like a drug to me.
> Lost a couple of friends who died in various accidents.
> 
> But after i got married, I gave it up.
> Too dangerous for my wife's liking.


Hehe… For me it started very young. Remember big wheels? We’d race those, go carts (the pedal sort),.. I just have a knack. With that, I learned apex’s, balance, drifting, and how to push whatever I was on to bleeding edge. By 12, young Racer was outrunning cops on dirtbikes, skateboards, and bikes for recreational entertainment; Seriously, it’d get the point where neighbors would set up lawn chairs and the whole police department would roll out to catch us ‘pool hoppers’ (we knew they’d come). Great fun! By 15-16, I was talked into transporting stolen vehicles… that’s the darker side and no longer so ‘fun’; much higher risk, rough crowd of professional criminals, and serious charges. That didn’t take. Got my license and got into the illegal street race stuff… on road and off. Didn’t matter what you put me in, I normally won if the vehicles were matched up right. 

I was ‘that bad boy’, ‘wild child’, or whatever you call it. But still that Renaissance man; travelled Europe for a month when 16, week long hiking trips with friends, keggers, skier, snowboarder (early adopter when they were illegal on slopes), bmx bikes (pre-mountain bike), winning art competitions, and working construction. So I’d be that tiny white in city park with two huge black guys (Purdue fullbacks) smoking weed and them telling their thug friends “he’s cool, he’s with us”… 

That is my youth. So now? I sort of feel like that guy who talks about the ‘big game’ in HS. I can’t ‘peak’ or ‘outdo’ my youth. So sitting around the pool, bbq’ing some dogs for the kids is about as “extreme” as I get now. 46… suburban white male. I drive a BMW, wear cacky pants, go to work, come home, crack a beer, and watch The Daily Show. You might find me on weekends pulling weeds, mowing, and waving at my neighbors as they bike by wearing full biking spandex and a helmet; just like everyone else on my block. I seriously considered a minivan based purely on the utility. Thing is, I have memories of driving a stolen Mustang 5.0L balls out down a canyon without lights and wires dangling below the dash from the hotwire, knowing I’m 15, without a license and a cop ‘somewhere back there calling it in’….


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## Anonymous07

DvlsAdvc8, I love the pictures. 

I think it's great to involve the kids and I remember a lot of similar things growing up with my dad. My dad was very involved and taught me a lot. I was treated the same as my brothers, as we all played sports and learned about home improvement, cars, etc. I loved that time with my dad. 

My husband and I love going hiking, taking our son in a carrier with us(husband wears him). When we're cooking, our son is hanging out in the kitchen with us, too. It's great. My husband and I can still do what we love, we just include our son. Being a parent doesn't mean you have to give up everything you loved and enjoyed doing.


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## Anonymous07

that_girl said:


> Psh, I'm from Dana Point. Only lived here for 5 years.
> 
> Sorry to be off topic!


I love Dana Point! We go to baby beach there with my son and to go kayaking.  

I'm north from there, but will be moving inland this weekend(north orange county).


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## meson

Racer said:


> You are true to yourself. Because the reality is there are so many versions of ‘the perfect man’ that one person’s perspective of you will not at all be the same as the next. You can’t please them all and most are more than happy to advise you toward their ideal of “perfection”. So you focus on the one thing you can control and listen to; your own gut about what a man is.


I think Racer is on point with being true to yourself. To me today's man should define himself. Back in time when you learned mostly from your parents and adopted their career because that's what you could learn and master, it made sense to be a man like your father. Now there are so many places to learn things and so many jobs and career paths available it is much easier to do whatever you want than ever before. There are so many sports, hobbies that one can easily adopt and become skilled in. Because of this people do. Self made and defined people are in general more interesting and attractive for either sex. 

Someone who only does something because that's what they were taught "men" do are not self defined. They are merely followers of someone else's goal or vision. For many and including me this is extremely unattractive. My story has a similarity to yours Racer. I was a self defined person when I married my wife but with kids that changed and I became the cannonical suburban father and husband which ultimately made me unattractive to her. This was the cause of a lot of marital conflict. It was only when I returned to my true self, pursuing those things that fed my soul, that my wife found me attractive again. 

The things I picked to enjoy and do are not what traditional "men" do though there is some overlap. But what I do, I enjoy and become innovative with and effective at and grow. To me this is a measure of a man or woman for that matter.

I see what men my daughter and her friends are attracted to and if anything the traditional "man" is not it. There are still lots of women that like traditional "men" but the diversity of what women are looking for is ever increasing so that it is becoming increasingly impossible to characterize a recipes for a man to become to be a "man" for them all. Attempting to do this is unattractive for men and women.


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## that_girl

Racer said:


> 46… suburban white male. I drive a BMW, wear cacky pants, go to work, come home, crack a beer, and watch The Daily Show. You might find me on weekends pulling weeds, mowing, and waving at my neighbors as they bike by wearing full biking spandex and a helmet; just like everyone else on my block. I seriously considered a minivan based purely on the utility.


But that's all choice.

To only do that and identity with that because you have some preconceived notion of what it means to be 46 in the suburbs is your choice.

And if my neighbors wore full biking spandex, I'd die :lol:


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## Racer

that_girl said:


> But that's all choice.
> 
> To only do that and identity with that because you have some preconceived notion of what it means to be 46 in the suburbs is your choice.
> 
> And if my neighbors wore full biking spandex, I'd die :lol:


Yes it is. I made it freely and based on who I am. I do enjoy it, but like most.... there's that holding onto your youth and still wanting to prove you still 'got it'.

I always giggle at the spandex. You know that whole biking outfit like they are going to a race. It's f'n funny to me because I know it's just a casual ride. But I got to admit the herd mentality is strong; I feel weird in just 'normal shorts and t-shirt' when everyone else is in this specialized gear.


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## Enginerd

I see the more intelligent men starting to rebel against both popular feminist and corporate expectations, but in a sophisticated way. The new American man wears tight brightly colored pants, V neck shirts, a few tats and sports the facial hair of 1800's gold miner. A serious clash of styles if compared to traditional garb. They're well aware of how they're expected to behave in mixed company and dress accordingly, but their appearance subtly says FU IMO.


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## that_girl

You mean extremist feminists? They give true feminism a bad name.


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## heartsbeating

Great photos Dvls... and not just because of the Batman costume.


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