# Almost 99% certain it's an affair



## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

I figured nobody would want to read the 130 replies on my topic on the Men's Club House so here are some updates on my problem.

Thanks to the keylogger, I finally got access to his cell phone and the one credit card that I did not have access before. So what do I see? Tons of phone calls/texts to this one number who happened to be a former co worker(both her and husband lost jobs about the same time). Since he got this phone mid Jan he seem to be in contact with her on a regular basis. I have seen some photo messages on his phone because he has sent her few photos of our son but no other msg on the phone itself. So he makes sure he erases them.

On the credit card there are about 11 hotel stays all in our area since Jan 10, 2010. He had no business being in these hotels. I don't know if the reservations were in his name but he seems to be booking the reservations over the phone more or less last minute and then you see several texts exchanged between them. Most likely all these sexual encounters happen during the day as both of them are unemployed. Her husband works in a hospital as some technician so he probably has weird hours. they live in an average suburb, nothing special on the home at least from what I have seen.

To add to this I also checked my H other cell phone and in December he had tons of calls to her. One of them made when he was abroad, 87 min and it cost well over $250 which he expensed through work. At that time he had another work cell number but the bills went to his HR department. Since H was running the show in this place nobody probably confronted him about these calls.

Husband continues to use his Blackberry probably for all other communication with her. I have never met this woman from his work but I know she is about his age if not couple years older. She is married, don't know if she has kids. I do know where she lives and I have her home number.

sofar I have:
My husband's weird behaviour
Record of all these phone calls/text(but not the actual content of the messages)
Credit card statements with hotel stays

Even the MC was impressed with me today on what I have managed to find out. I personally actually don't feel so bad right now, in a way I feel calm. Maybe I will hit a brick wall tomorrow but I think the not knowing was worse than the discovery.


He has not said anything to the counsellor about an affair and so far we are in individual counselling. She will try to get us together next week but of course I won't share what I have so far unless I get some great proof by then. She wants to see if we can talk it out as to what has happened to us to disconnect in such a way.

What do you think? Should I try to contact the OW husband with what I have or should I try to gather more info from a PI?

At what point do I expose the affair to family/friends after I confront him? Do I do it immediately regardless of how he responds?

Thanks


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## 63Vino (Dec 23, 2009)

Hi nrtq,

Total opinion here of course.
Your first thing is to confront him and deal with your own house. 
You'll have to get to the bottom of why, your own feelings and what you ultimatly want to do right?

As far as "payback" you can do all that but you're doing it out of anger.. which of course you have, but it's not serving you really, and could just make for more drama you dont need.

I'd focus on him and your marriage and then after some time, the rest will probably present itself as the right path.. 
Your adrenaline is high right now, and you should look to have a good support system, counselor, friends whatever, because its possible to get more difficult more emotional and more painful.
Take your time and think carefully about what you do, dont simply act from the anger.

all the best
Sorry by the way.. i know from reading other posts, you were working on this.

Stay calm.  as you can.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

When I said about exposing the affair I meant to do it in a polite way not insulting or attacking anyone. Basically saying H has an affair with XYZ. I have proof about it and I care to preserve my marriage. So in turn I am asking friends and family to support us and to encourage H to end the affair and get back to his family. Something along those lines. This would be sent to close family and some close friends that I know may make a difference especially on H.

Actually I am really calm right now. I am disappointed of course but considering what I went through in the last two months I actually feel better today then two days ago.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

notreadytoquit~

The order to do this is to first talk to/confront him asking if he is willing to end all contact with OW FOREVER--that is to say, never ever contact her again and give you access to everything so you can verify that his words and actions are matching. Do not necessarily give him all the evidence you have, but you have it if you need it. Ask if he's willing to devote 100% to you and working on your marriage. It's somewhat unusual, but sometimes just being confronted is enough for some Disloyal Spouses to end the affair and come back to the marriage. 

Then if he says no, or won't end all contact, or won't allow you access....THEN you would expose it. I recommend exposing to people who are likely to be pro-marriage (and bear in mind that his family may support him even if he is entirely wrong rather than being brave and telling him to go back to his wife). Some typical people to expose to are folks like the pastor, your family and/or siblings, maybe his family or siblings, and sometimes really true, good friends. Another REALLY basic (but sometimes hard) place to expose is to the employer or place of work. Right now the company is WIDE OPEN to a lawsuit for sexual harassment for unwanted sexual contact at the workplace (you, as the spouse, did not want this contact between them). Also they used work resources to facilitate their sexual activity and that resulted in both loss of productivity and loss of company profit! 

As you said, the purpose for the exposure is not spite nor to drag your spouse's name through the mud (nope--their choices and actions are doing that), but rather to bring to the light of day the TRUTH of what is going on rather than letting it continue hidden. 

So--#1 ask if he'll willingly end it. If he will, no need to expose as that would be vengeful. #2 if he will NOT...then expose.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

I cannot get a hold of any messages(either text or blackberry) so I would like to get some sort of visual proof that I can show to his family. It would be hard to deny something like that.

Again I am not even sure that I would want to stay married if he is not willing to end things and be 100% honest and open with everything with me whether that happens as soon as I confront him or down the road. I know you can't get divorced over night anyways so he'll have to think about his actions.

I would not want to go the employer route right now because he is still receiving severance from the company and I don't want to end up fighting him over custody of our 15 month old son


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> I cannot get a hold of any messages(either text or blackberry) so I would like to get some sort of visual proof that I can show to his family. It would be hard to deny something like that.


Most likely you won't get visual proof. That doesn't happen very often. And if you keep waiting for that, you will allow the affair to grow, even though it is doomed in the end - she is married. It's not gonna continue...



> Again I am not even sure that I would want to stay married if he is not willing to end things and be 100% honest and open with everything with me whether that happens as soon as I confront him or down the road. I know you can't get divorced over night anyways so he'll have to think about his actions.


Unless he is willing to end things, you won't be able to stay married anyway, since eventually he will leave. And a divorce is not necessary - you can also separate and remove yourself from the picture - this will cause the affair to collapse as well, and leave him stranded, with no one to fill the needs he has been getting from both his women.



> I would not want to go the employer route right now because he is still receiving severance from the company and I don't want to end up fighting him over custody of our 15 month old son


These are not very convincing excuses! If you divorce him, you'll possibly end up fighting over custody anyway! (Although not likely - more likely you'll end up splitting custody). No fight is really necessary. But as for the work thing - _so what _about the severance pay? Are you saying that money is more important to you than your marriage? Are you really arguing that he should be allowed to continue getting money to spend time with the Other Woman? Seriously?


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## fullcircle (Mar 8, 2010)

I would ask him this question:
"If you found out somehow that I had booked hotel accommodation in 11 hotels since Jan 2010 and had also been making tons of phone calls/texts to one particular number who happened to be a former man co worker. And quite often text messages and calls seemed to happen at the same time as booking these hotels, would you be slightly concerned about that in any way" ? 

At this point I would hazard a guess that you will see a more red appearance to his face, more commonly known as nervous blushing. At least that's is how I looked when my wife confronted me with just ONE, e-mail.

Now I am a "benefit of the doubt" kind of guy but you do not need any more evidence to see what is most likely going on here, and if he is not concealing a plan to surprise you with a party revealing that he has finally found your long lost sister and he has been setting up accommodation for all of your friends and relatives that are coming to the party, then he is having an affair! 

In my opinion you don't need to do anything else at this time other than confront this head on and get some explanations out in the open. If you can stay as calm as you seem at the moment and not let him draw you into an argument about it, I think he will feel like he is the luckiest guy in the world that he isn't getting the crockery thrown at him. 
At some point this is going to hit the fan anyway, and it may as well be on your terms when you feel in control. 
Once you have got it out in the open you can start to think about who you need to talk to for support and how bad the situation is. 
It will all depend on his reaction as to where it will go next. Prepare yourself for the worst, that he will confess all and tell you he loves this woman and wants a divorce. If he is in total denial and does not want to play ball with you then he is worried about losing something, which is a more hopeful situation to be honest. If he is begging your forgiveness, even better.
It might be good to think about how you will react to each of those scenarios so that you can be more prepared in your response.
I think if you start to speculate to much about avenues of money custody and such, you are just jumping to far ahead and will get overwhelmed with the situation and make reactionary decisions. You need to deal with one thing at a time. Confrontation, then take time to let that sink in and what it means, and then think about what you need to do next.

That would be my approach from what you have said, but ultimately you will know your H and what makes him tick more than anyone on here can, which will shape the way you approach it.
I don't envy you, and hope that you will be strong and thoughtful in your decision making.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

I am still debating about the hiring of the PI but if I don't end up doing that I will confront him with that. In the last two days I don't seem to see lots of communications between them at least not via the phone(he could be using the BB though). And last night when he came home(he said he had to stay later in the office), I did not bother making dinner thinking he went out for dinner. Well he did not apparently so he went to a local nearby food place and got dinner for both of us. I only asked for a salad but he also got me a sandwich. This morning I went to his car and put back the car seat(I had to wash it yesterday) and when he got up I told him I put the car seat in the back and he seemed fine and in a good mood. So I will observe what happens in the next few days with his behaviour. 

As for me exposing his affair to his work(for which I absolutely have to be 101% sure or be embarrased) I can do that but I will leave that as last resort.

Another question to ask. Should I try to contact the OW husband if I only have these hotel stays/phone records? Should I tell him that I am suspecting something based on that? I don't know this person but I know how to contact him. Would it help if I contacted him before I confronted my husband?


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## cody5 (Sep 2, 2009)

notreadytoquit said:


> Another question to ask. Should I try to contact the OW husband if I only have these hotel stays/phone records? Should I tell him that I am suspecting something based on that? I don't know this person but I know how to contact him. Would it help if I contacted him before I confronted my husband?


I'm no expert, but you've got too many unknowns to deal with for now. Adding a potentially volitile wronged husband into this mix could be a disaster. You've got enough to deal with for now. 

I don't see why you need a PI. It looks like you're ready to confront. 99%? Why go through all that effort and cost just to bump it up 1%.

Good luck. You seem so calm.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Would you contact the husband if I was absolutely sure it is her he is having an affair?

The only reason I would like to hire a PI for is to get some visual evidence if I can. He does not know about the keylogger and I know he will be mad about it. If I confront him now with what I have he will deny it and then take the laptop everywhere with him and then I will have absolutely no way of knowing what is going on. Just because I confront him it does not mean he will end it. I don't want to look like I am trying to be controlling because I am not a person like that. But I do care about my marriage and I love my husband and I think I have every right to fight for it and know what is going on. If there are things that are missing for both of us I am sure we can work on it but if his mind is somewhere else I don't think it would make a lot of difference even if I stood on my head all day long.

For the past 3 months I have been really suffering because of not knowing what is going on. I am calm now because at least I have some proof.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> The only reason I would like to hire a PI for is to get some visual evidence if I can. He does not know about the keylogger and I know he will be mad about it. If I confront him now with what I have he will deny it and then take the laptop everywhere with him and then I will have absolutely no way of knowing what is going on. Just because I confront him it does not mean he will end it.


Just to let you know, he could deny it if you confronted him with photographic evidence. He could deny it if you caught him in person in bed with the other woman. This is not made up stuff - it's actually happened. The point is that you know he is having an affair.

And with that knowledge you have a way to proceed.



> I don't want to look like I am trying to be controlling because I am not a person like that.


While you may not want to look like a controlling person, that's exactly what you are trying to do. You want to find the perfect tool to _make_ him stop doing what he is doing. You think if you can just get the right picture, the right evidence, etc., that he will stop what he is doing and return to you. That is an attempt to control him. And controlling another person is virtually impossible. There is also the possibility that he might simply choose the Other Person over you once you confront him. 
_
There is a much better way to go about what you need to do._



> But I do care about my marriage and I love my husband and I think I have every right to fight for it and know what is going on. If there are things that are missing for both of us I am sure we can work on it but if his mind is somewhere else I don't think it would make a lot of difference even if I stood on my head all day long.


A lot of truth there! As long as the affair is in progress, he will not be willing to work on your marriage. _That does not mean that you should not be doing your part of the work._ 

To end the affair: 

1) You definitely need to confront him with what you have. Also keep what you have (printouts, etc.) safe for future reference. Ask him to stop what he is doing, ask him instead to return to you and begin working on the marriage. That's all you need to do. He is free to respond. That way you have given him the choice. 

*Simply confronting with evidence is often a means to ending an affair.*

2) If he refuses, then expose the affair to people with the ability to persuade him. His work, the Other Person's family, your family, his family, etc. 
*
Exposure is a very strong tool to end an affair.*

Note for both steps one and two: An affair is a fantasy built and sustained by hiding. Part of it's thrill is the secrecy. Exposing it to light shows it to be the fantasy that it truly is. Exposure makes it less appealing and is usually a mortal wound to the affair.

If that does not work, then: 

3) If he continues, cut off the support you are offering him.

In an affair, the Disloyal Spouse is getting their needs filled from both the Loyal Spouse and the Other Person. For the most part, neither the Loyal Spouse, nor the Other Person are filling 100% of the Disloyal Person's needs. Hence - cutting off your part of the supply means that they must then turn to the Other Person for the rest of their needs. This puts a huge burden on the Other Person - who (especially in this case) is already dealing with their own spouse.

*The Disloyal Spouse wants their cake - and they want to eat it too.*

Will he get mad if you confront him? Sure he will! He will be embarrassed, scared, and a large part of the fantasy will suddenly by pulled away from him. Yes he'll get mad. That's part of the whole package. You _CANNOT_ control him in such a way that he will not get angry. 

But keep this in mind: _your spouse is not thinking clearly_. He has built up an entire world of fantasy, he has twisted facts until they contradict reality. He is in a fog. He is thinking in a dizzy fashion, and that dizziness will last for quite a while after the affair ends. The affair is like an addiction, and it takes a while to end the habit. 

You need to confront him soon. Allowing it to continue because you are not 100% sure of the outcome (and you never will be!) means that you are allowing the addiction to build and build and build - until it destroys your marriage.


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## fullcircle (Mar 8, 2010)

notreadytoquit said:


> Would you contact the husband if I was absolutely sure it is her he is having an affair?


No, the other woman and her husband are irrelevant to you unless the are causing the problem. For instance if your husband confessed all and was really trying to make a go of it and she kept pestering him then you would have good reason to contact her or her husband to tell her to back off.
I think you need to forget about the external things and focus on your H, that is only thing that can ultimately keep you together. Your H and your relationship are what needs to be fixed, nothing else !
You should not be worried about the fact that he will deny everything and then keep the laptop because in all honesty you should not allow that to happen. If he denies it then surly he would have to give you a really good explanation for the messages and hotel bookings etc. Him immediately going off at you for the key logger thing would just be a way of diverting your attention from the issue (him having an affair). Like I said, don't allow him to do that. Tell him straight, tell him you put the key logger on there because you don't trust him right now, I haven't read your previous posts but it sounds like you had good reason for not trusting him. Tell him if he takes the laptop away and does not allow you to view credit card bills etc then you have no option but to presume him guilty !. Tell him either he gives you a convincing explanation or you will presume he is having an affair and will have no choice but to act on that. It is his job to convince you that he is not, not your job to prove that he is. If I may say so with all due respect it sounds like you are enabling him to do what he wants by not demanding that he is open with you. Some men and women think for some reason that they have a right to there own private world when the are married, that is just not the case. When you get married you are in a partnership and there should be nothing that you cannot share with each other. That is not to say that some people WON'T have a secret little world form there partners, but that is called deception, not something I have a right to. You shouldn't have to feel like you need to inform your partner of every little detail of your life all of the time but you be willing to explain and disclose details if asked. You are not controlling your husbands life you taking care of your life with him. Even if he somehow gives a perfectly acceptable explanation, he should still have no problem with you viewing his stuff !. The only time he has the right to be slightly pi**ed at you for this is if he completely innocent and repeatedly showing you evidence to that effect but you keep hounding him. Somehow I don't see that being the case here !


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> No, the other woman and her husband are irrelevant to you unless the are causing the problem. For instance if your husband confessed all and was really trying to make a go of it and she kept pestering him then you would have good reason to contact her or her husband to tell her to back off.


This is partially correct. You should also contact the other husband if your husband refuses to stop the affair. This affair is harming THAT relationship as well, and, while what goes on in their marriage is really of no concern to you, what YOUR husband is doing IS of concern.

The purpose of exposing the affair to the Other Person's spouse is to create a situation in which your spouse cannot get their needs filled by the Other Person. It has nothing to do with vengeance.

Moreover - if you are unwilling to go to the Other Person's spouse means that there are things more important to you than saving your marriage.


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## fullcircle (Mar 8, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> This is partially correct. You should also contact the other husband if your husband refuses to stop the affair. This affair is harming THAT relationship as well, and, while what goes on in their marriage is really of no concern to you, what YOUR husband is doing IS of concern.
> 
> The purpose of exposing the affair to the Other Person's spouse is to create a situation in which your spouse cannot get their needs filled by the Other Person. It has nothing to do with vengeance.
> 
> Moreover - if you are unwilling to go to the Other Person's spouse means that there are things more important to you than saving your marriage.


:iagree: yep good point. I would still say however that this should not be something to think about right now as she has not given her H the opportunity to explain himself.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

The adivce from both of you is good I think. I have already thought about all that myself. Let me ask you something else:

Let's say I confront him, he gets angry,denies it all or does not explain anything. He takes away the laptop and continues with his weird behavior. Do I walk away then?

For those who have not read my original post in the Men's Clubhouse here it is in a nutshell. He started acting weird beginning of Dec 09. He had a lot of pressure at work so I did not want to hound him on this. On Jan 8 he found out that he is losing his job(but still has all benefits and severance for a 1 year). We are financially very well so money is not issue here. From that day on he decided to sleep in a different bedroom, act totally distant, spend most of the day outside the house. When I asked him he only said things have not been well between us for a while. It took him another month before we actually talked. He then said that I have been draining him emotionally with my bad behaviour for the last almost 3 years, even though he never showed that or talked about it. Up until Nov he would do whatever every loving spouse does: kiss, hug, tell me he loves me etc. So this came out of the blue to me at least. Oh and he has put a password on his blackberry after not having one for 7 years and when I asked him to show it to me if he had nothing to hide, he refused.
All I know is that an affair is not an excuse for any problems in a marriage. I am a very open person and I thought he was too.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

We are also in individual MC now and that was also my idea.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> Let's say I confront him, he gets angry,denies it all or does not explain anything. He takes away the laptop and continues with his weird behavior. Do I walk away then?


Again - take it in steps. 

_The first step_ is to confront him, and ask that he cease and desist, and return to the marriage.

*If he refuses,* then go to step two: Expose the affair to all involved, and to anyone who has some influence over your husband.

*If that does not work, *then step three: you will need to remove your support from him - let him experience the consequences of choosing someone else over you.

If that does not work, you are free to make any choices you feel are correct.

However: in the meantime - from now until you get to step three, you should be doing all you can to be the World's Greatest Wife. Be the wife that stories are written about. Do it, no matter how you hurt. Smile, though your heart is breaking.

The reason? This will leave a lasting impression upon your husband. He may not act as though he wants it right now - but if you DO get as far as step three, he'll all of the sudden notice a distinct drop in getting his needs filled.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

notreadytoquit~

May I share a personal story with you? My first husband and I had a business installing touchscreen computers into very fancy, high-end restaurants and hotels. When my ex had his affair, he said he was going to <city> to work on the computers at <hotel> which was a client for whom we did the restaurant and the hotel computer network. Well.... I suspected but could never prove and he kept telling me I was nuts, I was making it up, they were "just friends" etc. Then one day the hotel sent me some lingerie saying "Dear Mr. XYZ~ In your last visit with Mrs. XYZ on <date> she inadvertently left some lingerie in the room and we thought she'd like it back. " 

Needless to say, he had NEVER, EVER taken me there. So I took the lingerie up to the hotel with me, and in the excuse of working on the computers, I looked at security footage from that date--and it showed them walking in...and them walking out. It did not show them in bed together but armed with the "less than fresh" other woman's lingerie, the receipt for "Mr. and Mrs." to a hotel we had never been to, and the security footage of them in the hotel on that date...I confronted him. 

See if you can guess what happened? He DENIED IT! :lol: Seriously I kid you not. And the story was so silly I asked him, "How stupid do you think I am?" 

Notready, when a person marries they make a covenant to "...act in a way so that affection and loyalty are committed and dedicated to a private person to whom loyalty is due" namely to their spouse alone. That means if they have a kindler that needs to be met, they promise to forsake all others and turn only to you. If they are bored, they turn to you. If they want fun, they turn to you. Since that is not what's going on...then it is an affair. You don't need the smoking gun. Okay? 

Finally, I do agree with Tanelorn (naturally ) that first you ask him if he's willing to end it 100% and never contact. If he is, great you can work on rebuilding; but if he's not it is absolutely appropriate to contact the Other Woman's Husband. This is not for vengeance or to get in cahoots, but because the OW's spouse needs to know/deserves to know that your H is interfering in his marriage. This would be "information only" and possibly sharing some of your proof (because put together with some of his own doubts/proof he may see the truth). Once OW's H is informed it is no longer your business how they handle it or whether they stay together. This is ONLY to encourage the end of the affair as soon as possible.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Just an observation: if you are 99% sure this is an affair, and you want 100% verification - 

If you confront him with your evidence, and he grows angry and refuses to prove it is not an affair, you just got the other 1%.

99% + 1% = 100%


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> Just an observation: if you are 99% sure this is an affair, and you want 100% verification -
> 
> If you confront him with your evidence, and he grows angry and refuses to prove it is not an affair, you just got the other 1%.
> 
> 99% + 1% = 100%


I think I may have found the 1%. Tonight he is out in another town(thanks GPS). Just about the time he left there are 3 phone calls back and forth to her. He told me he is going out with a former male colleague but no record of calling this guy. He also called the hotel earlier when I was out. 1 min but still a call. So now they are having nice dinner and then we will see what the GPS shows. If it shows the hotel, well he may have to throw up the food when he gets home or maybe I should put a sign on the door to his bedroom BUSTED!?

I guess tonight is the night. I know, I should be calm as much as I can and let see how he reacts. Oh and tomorrow morning he has an appointment with the counsellor(to which I will also send an email tonight)


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

notreadytoquit~

It certainly seems that tonight may be the night. You will be in our thoughts and prayers tonight and if you need to, you know how to contact us right?


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> I guess tonight is the night. I know, I should be calm as much as I can and let see how he reacts. Oh and tomorrow morning he has an appointment with the counsellor(to which I will also send an email tonight)


I'm very sorry about this. It is a very painful and sorrowful thing to have to endure. Have courage and always do the right thing.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

called the hotel no reservation under either name, however he could be just asking if there are rooms available. Thanks to all for your support. Yes it sucks to be in this position but surprisingly I am really calm right now. The only thing is if he comes back much later I won't be waiting for him. I am done waiting for him for anything. I know he will try to avoid the conversation tonight with excuses about being tired and that he has a 7am appointment with the counsellor tomorrow morning. If not tonight I will wait until Monday to talk to him when the hotel charge gets posted on his credit card.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

ok so here are more developments. I have not confronted him yet. But thanks to keylogger, I found out he had a different email address and there I found some incriminating emails back and forth. Also found out that she went to Cancun with him when he was there on business. She stayed 5 days there. What an idiot of a H do I have. 

Now the keylogger was installed on his work computer that he is also using as you can see to organize his sexual encounters. I don't want him to know about the keylogger. How do I confront him about all this without discovering my "tools".

I can confront him about the cell phone account because he had a password that I could have really guessed. I also have the hotel stays on his credit card but for that I could say I called around and found the info(I know how to talk to res. agents at hotels used to work in the travel industry). Should I just go about these two things and not mention the rest? Or should I just throw everything in his face and whatever happens it happens? They are no longer working at the company but my H still receives benefits/salary from them and uses the car/work laptop.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You don't 'confront' him. You tell him you KNOW he is having an affair and that YOU will not accept it in your marriage. He can either end the affair, or LEAVE. 

Just like that. You are not telling him what to do; you are telling him that YOU will not accept an unfaithful husband. 

Then wait. 

If he continues to contact her (and yes, I would hire a PI, if you are well off like you say - your marriage is worth it), THEN you call:
his parents
his siblings
his best friends
the OW's husband
the OW's parents (if she's under, say, 35)
your parents

You tell them what is going on and say you are fighting to save your marriage, what do they advise? That puts them in your corner. They may or may not contact him and the OW - but them just knowing that they have been exposed is often enough to stop it dead in its tracks. If nothing else, it's no longer as fun and exciting as it was - now it's kinda embarrassing. A great damper.

Then you wait again. He will either end the affair, or you will kick him out.

No matter what, you CANNOT accept it continuing around you.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

notreadytoquit said:


> How do I confront him about all this without discovering my "tools".


Turnera has it exactly correct. You confront him like this: "_(Husband) for a little while now I've had the feelings things were not right between us so I did some investigating, and I have discovered proof that you are having an affair with (OW's Name). No I will not tell you what I know or how I got it, just know that I do have concrete evidence that would stand up in a court of law and will accept nothing short of absolutely honesty. You have one chance and one chance only to make this right with me--I'm asking you right now to end all contact with (OW) forever. In order to rebuild trust I would expect nothing short of access to all of you email accounts, cell phones and bills, and online accounts to verify your honesty about ending contact. Are you willing to do that right now...tonight? Are you willing to write a No Contact letter with me right now that I can send to (OW) and never, EVER contact her in any way? Are you willing to give me access to all your emails, chat logs, and accounts right now and go through with me and delete or block her and any other single women?_" 

You don't need to give him details about what you know or how you got it. He doesn't need to know that--YOU know! If you showed him, he'd most likely just try to explain it, deny it, or somehow blame you anyway so there's no point. Just ask him if he's willing to end it, right now. Don't "give him a week to think about it" either. He's Disloyal Dizzy but not dumb, so let him know right up front what he stands to lose. 

THEN after talking like that, very clear and with confidence, you'll know what he's going to choose. Now, he's likely going to be a little sideswiped, not see it coming, etc. but stay calm and don't let him "explain" or talk his way out of it. You know what you know, notready--don't deter from that point. Stay on target and keep going back to "End it now...tonight." It would be REALLY gracious of you to give him a way to save some face and not be utterly embarrassed. Tell him you do love him and want to work on it and even understand that you contributed to making the marriage vulnerable and you have stuff to work on. It would give him hope to know you could forgive him and take responsibility for your part in this! But before any of that good stuff can happen it's GOT TO END. 

So print what you need to, store it somewhere safe, and then go talk to him. Be firm, be confident, don't give away your evidence, and stay on track. Are you willing to end it right now, tonight?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Excellent advice. And when she says store it somewhere safe, that means NOT in your house! If he doesn't cave, if he isn't salvageable (sorry), he will go searching for the evidence to destroy it. So protect the stuff before you talk to him. I'm hoping you won't need it, but please protect yourself first.


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## Mal74 (Dec 24, 2009)

I've read the thread and really just wanted to say that I admire you for wanting to save your marriage. I think there's a real difference between wanting to work to salvage the marriage and simply being a sap. So many people seem to cave in the face of situations like this, either hoping their partner will change as if by magic and give up the cheating, or they simply turn their back and walk out. 

I think that to walk the path you're walking takes real courage, and it's a great example of being committed. I think especially if you take the advice given here, of confronting him and giving him the choice to join you in the fight to save the marriage, you are doing such a brave and inspiring thing. 

In light of my own painful situation I just wanted to say that while I wouldn't compare myself to what you are going through, certainly you have inspired me with your commitment and your courage.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

turnera said:


> Excellent advice. And when she says store it somewhere safe, that means NOT in your house! If he doesn't cave, if he isn't salvageable (sorry), he will go searching for the evidence to destroy it. So protect the stuff before you talk to him. I'm hoping you won't need it, but please protect yourself first.


:smthumbup: :iagree: :smnotworthy:

You got it! 

Remember hearing the story about my ex to whom I showed the lingerie from the hotel room and video tape as my proof and he still tried to deny it? His exact words were "How did you do that?" "Do what" "Doctor a tape to make it look like I did that?" Seriously I kid you not. I knew nothing then and know nothing NOW about how to do Photoshop and doctor tapes for a VCR (for crying out loud) but that was his "excuse" for not believing what I had filmed him doing!

Then I also had printouts of his emails and copies on my computer (screenshots of his email so you can tell it's his, etc. ). Well he went into his computer, deleted the email address and then broke into my house and tried to delete my hard drive!  He was a toughish ex. Anyway, turnera has the point right on the money. Store the evidence in a safety deposit box in the bank or at your attorney's office or something like that--because there is a very good chance he will try to find it and delete it/erase it/destroy it to cover up his own guilt.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Ok so last night he lied to me about going to tennis so I took a drive to their favorite restaurant hangout(he is very predictable) and of course I find his car parked there. But I was not sure what restaurant they were in so I waited in the parking lot. 3 hrs later they come out, he escorts her to her car and then he goes to his. As he was walking towards his(they were parked next to each other) I confronted him. I only smiled and said to him that I know all about the affair and then I turned around and left. Of course she saw me too(she was in the car already). 

So I came home went to bed. He comes maybe 30 min later and wants to talk to me. I told him that I have nothinig else to say to him. I told him I know everything from his trip to Cancun up to tonight. He then left the house went to the office. Came back at 130am and then left again at 730am. In the meantime, there were over 16 txt message exchange between them over night plus some phone calls. 

This morning he changed the online password on our joint account and removed me as the authorized user from my cell phone account. The phone was originally in his name because I had no credit history but it still works which is fine with me because I have nothing to hide. He text me saying he needed to protect his privacy. I told him privacy and secrecy are two different things and that the second one is a breeding ground for an affair.

So I guess he is pissed, mad and gulity! My sister decided to stay with me for few more days.

I did not present any evidence to him and it is in safe place as per the adivice on this forum. So that was my CSI night!

Any further thought?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Go to the bank NOW and make sure he can't withdraw money!

Then go to a lawyer TODAY to draw up papers in case he tries to run you over (figuratively).


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Ok thanks turnera,

Now just got a message from him. He wants to talkto see where I am coming up with these accusations. So I have no problem talking to him but I am not going to tell him everything or show him anything.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> Now just got a message from him. He wants to talkto see where I am coming up with these accusations. So I have no problem talking to him but I am not going to tell him everything or show him anything.


Why would you not tell him everything - or show him anything? This is the perfect opportunity to make plain what needs to be done to save your marriage! 

The very first thing you do - to begin to recover your marriage - is to confront your Disloyal Spouse with any evidence you have, and let them know that the affair has to end. Now while you certainly confronted him in the parking lot - you still should take this step as an official move forward in the recovery of your marriage.

You don't even have to worry about convincing him to stop, you don't have to rebut his defenses (I mean, you don't have to argue back about any objections he may have.) You don't have to plead or whine or do any other thing that you feel may reach him - emotionally, or rationally.

All you have to do is let him know that if he wants the marriage to continue, he needs to stop. 

And leave it at that. I call this step of marriage recovery 'Placarding'. It's like you put up a sign that says "End the affair. Stop all contact." You don't need to explain. The sign says it all. Your statement is a notice - it is a significant change in the relationship - from this time onward things will be different, both regarding the affair, and your marriage. It makes _NO difference_ what he says - the course of your marriage will change from the moment you make this statement. 

And having the evidence - _although this may not make a difference_ - also may. If you are worried about losing the evidence once you show it - make copies. 

Regardless, its a good thing to take full use of this opportunity. 

One last word of advice: you will most likely hear all kinds of reasons why either this affair is necessary, or that it isn't happening. Pay no attention to these statements. Stick to your guns, make your declaration that the affair needs to end, all contact must end, and then move onward. In answer to _any _objection, _tell him that in order for the marriage to work he needs to stop the affair._ Stay on track, don't let him change tact. He'll most likely try a lot of different things.

I wouldn't even attempt to carry the conversation beyond that point. The response of your husband will give you all the information you need about which direction you should go from that point onward.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't want to show him the credit card statement with the hotels because I used a keylogger but I have a different credible way to present that info(used to be in travel and I know how to get info like that from hotels)

As for the cell phone statements as I said I could have easily guessed the password so I was planning of showing him that. I was going to show him the latest usage showing their phone calls and texting all last night(why would they do it if they had nothing to hide) I was also going to tell him about all the signs he exhibited as cheater(I have a list of those).

I think this would be enough. He also has another gmail account with some sexy msgs but I used the keylogger for that one so I won't say anything about that yet.

What do you guys think of all this?


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> What do you guys think of all this?


I'm kinda torn on that. Here's the reason.

You want to hide the keylogger from him - but the sole reason for using the keylogger is to find evidence of an affair. You did. There is no longer a reason to conceal it from him. 

If he agrees with you that the affair must stop, he will be willing to do whatever it takes to repair the damage. That would include, if you felt it necessary - the use of a keylogger on his computer. If he is serious about recovery - he will give you 100% access to everything he does - he has lost the right to any privacy, at least for the time being. Over time, he will be able to build up trust with you again - at which time, the keylogger will become unnecessary.

Also - a healthy marriage is built on honesty - it is difficult to see how, once the proof has been found, it is honest to not tell him you are using a keylogger to track his movements.

On the other hand, I can see how you would be worried that he will say one thing, and do another.

Or - that he will simply keep up the affair, and you'll want to continue gathering proof.

It seems to me that you have all the proof you will ever need. You don't need more - the affair has been revealed and brought to light. From this point on, you can move from gathering proof to other steps of recovery, and he will either come along or he will not. He may try to continue the affair - and the evidence you need for that will be his unwillingness to be open and honest with you. He will still keep things private. 

THAT'S all you need - you don't need more chat logs, or photographs. My two cents worth...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I think at this point that I would show it to him. And make it clear you will NOT continue with him in any shape or form unless he continues to allow a keylogger on his computer until you are satisfied he has quit cheating. 

You shouldn't be taking him back without that agreement. PERIOD.

Because, if he is unwilling to allow you to monitor his activity, it means HE IS STILL CHEATING.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

I confronted him just now. He of course denied it ALL and he even tries to make me like I am controlling wife and that I am the crazy one here. It was almost funny at times how he was lying. He brought up again how he has been emotionally drained from me from the last 3 years(I was being negative he kept saying).


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Yep Tanelorn hit the nail on the head (again).  The primary purpose of the keylogger and gathering evidence was to prove to you (and secondarily to him) that you know he is having an affair. Bear in mind that whatever you do present to him, he will very, very likely deny and try to "explain." So the primary purpose of determining "Yes or No, is he involved in an affair?" has been accomplished (Yes, he definitely is). 

I think Tanelorn and I may disagree very slightly in that I see some value in having the keylogger on as verification--and he believes that being honest/transparent is more valuable and I do believe he makes a good point. We know for a FACT it is an affair, and if need be you have printed, saved "evidence for a court of law" proof of it, stored outside the home so he can not block you, delete you, erase it, etc. Right? That was what we needed. 

Now, when you speak to him, I personally do not believe you need to lay every bit of evidence out on the table--not that you're keeping an "ace in the hole" but more like he's the one in the affair...he KNOWS what he's doing and that it's wrong, and so do you. So there's nothing profitable from rehashing all that. In fact, you could easily say to him something like "I have credible evidence that would hold up in a court of law and that is not what I want to discuss with you now. What I DO want to discuss is that you made a marriage commitment to me and you're having an affair. Are you willing to end ALL CONTACT with the other woman right now, tonight, and never ever contact her again?" 

See what I mean? In a way the evidence is a bit irrelevant now. You proved it and it's over. Now you know and he knows that you know. So NOW you take step one to recover after an affair and ask him to stop. 

Thus, my advice would be to not worry so much about "the evidence" as chances are about 99.99% he'll deny whatever you do produce. The energy is better spent now on ending the affair and recovering afterward. 

BTW--if Turnera says "Expose! Expose!" that's actually the next step. The very first step is to ask them right out if they are willing to end all contact. I suggest giving like 24 hours to respond because the fact is, he and the OW have been sideswiped and are plotting. Lots of times, once they are discovered, a disloyal will fume and fuss a bit, then some part of their head realizes the charade is over and they do agree to stop. In that instance you wouldn't move on to exposure because they admitted they were wrong and stopped it of their own accord. Make sense?

So tonight the focus is not on the evidence, but rather asking if he is willing to END ALL CONTACT, and never ever speak to her again. And yep--that includes at work. He will need to either transfer or quit the job or you can move or whatever, but NO MORE CONTACT.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

OH! FYI some typical things a disloyal will say right now: 

DISLOYAL: "I can not believe you would invade my privacy like that!"
YOU: "You're right--I can not believe you would hide and sneak and lie like that to me"

DISLOYAL: "What is your problem? You're making something out of nothing!"
YOU: "If it's nothing you should be able to end all contact easily! Good I'm glad that's settled."

DISLOYAL: "We are just friends and you can't tell me who I can or can not be friends with!"
YOU: "You're right I can't force you to stop your inappropriate affair with another woman but I can call it what it is. It is not a friendship. A true friend would tell you to go make things right with your wife!"

DISLOYAL: "Don't drag my name through the mud or get me fired!"
YOU: "I have only told the truth. Your actions and choices are what is dragging your name through the mud/getting you fired."


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

The keylogger was put on his work laptop so that's why I can't disclose it.

So he kept denying things, he is trying to put the blame on me for the last 3 years. Should I go ahead and call the OW husband, expose this to friends and family or wait few more days?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Did you ask him right out loud "Are you willing to end all contact with the other woman and never, ever talk to her or see her again?"

I would ask that right out first.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Agreed. Ask him to stop. THEN decide.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Also, it would be cool/okay to say "I'll give you 24 hours to consider whether you'll end all contact--so by or before 1pm PT/4pm ET tomorrow. I want to work it out with you and I'm willing to work on the things I did to contribute to this. We could work on a letter ending all contact together, and we can get through this." 

(This way he has hope and knows that you are willing to work it out if he just admits what he's done.)


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> The keylogger was put on his work laptop so that's why I can't disclose it.
> 
> So he kept denying things, he is trying to put the blame on me for the last 3 years. Should I go ahead and call the OW husband, expose this to friends and family or wait few more days?


Once you 'placard' the affair (that is, make the statement that it needs to end), you have completed that step. Depending on his response to your statement, you have two clear paths you can follow:

1) If he agrees that he needs to end the affair, you can both start working on recovery.

2) If he denies it, you then move to the next step: exposure.

Since it appears that he is certainly denying this, your next move is to _expose the affair_. As Affaircare added above - you can certainly give him a time period to decide - but keep that fairly short, because in that time, if he wishes to keep the affair going, it will be going very far underground. (This is one reason why I say that it no longer as important to gather proof.) 

Remember that the reason to expose the affair is not to get some vengeance, nor to punish, but to shed some light on a thing that lives in darkness, as well as to get more people involved in talking some reality to your spouse.

So - when Turnera says go.....GO!!!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

lol


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

he just keeps laughing about everything, as if I were crazy so he is not accepting anything. I think if I caught him in bed with her he would still deny it.

I have already composed a letter to his brother. His mom is going on vacation tomorrow for a week so I did not want to spoil her trip by telling her all this(yes I am being nice)

I have that one email from his secret account where they are all giggly and lovingly expressing feelings so who ever won't believe me they can see a copy of that email. Simple as that. I already have an idea whom to contact. 

As we are from Canada and now living in the US I will be consulting lawyers in both countries. Both places have very similar laws(no fault states) almost identical. However in the US we are on work visa which does not allow the spouse(me) to work. Also as Canadian citizen I can only stay as tourist max 6 months in this country. So I figured if I get divorced here I may end up with bigger child/alimony. I don't think he is thinking about that yet. All I want to be able is to take care of my child and be surrounded by friends and family who care about me and in this case this would be in Canada. Our son is dual citizen so we will have to work out some arrangment around taking the child between the countries or outside of North America. 

At this point I am really ready to start a fresh new life even without him. I just can't live a life with lies and deception around me. This is definitely not the man I married.

He even said today that the counsellor told him that I was in denial(that things are not working out with us) but we have not even had a joint session together and of course he is giving her completely different story than mine so she does not know whom to believe. 

He did agree that I go back to Canada for couple of weeks to get my mind cleared and get out of this place for a while.

Wow I never thought I'd be saying these things.

Thank you all for your support and the great advice. Whatever happens, happens! It's not the end of the world. I won't be the first one or the last one going through divorce. And his judgement day will come sooner or later. Like they say what goes around comes around


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> At this point I am really ready to start a fresh new life even without him. I just can't live a life with lies and deception around me. This is definitely not the man I married.


This is so true. The man you are around right now is deep in the dizzy fog of an affair, which is why we suggest you listen to everything with at least a grain of salt. Until the affair ends and the fog lifts, he won't be even close to the man you married. 

What he is doing is entirely to be expected, so pay very little attention. It is all done to distract you - to make you look one way while he goes another. 

Also, do not be concerned about what his counselor 'said.' Keep in mind several things: 

1) The counselor did not say this to you - your husband claims this is what was said. 

2) The counselor does not have all the facts, and therefore cannot make any kind of precise, or even correct judgment about you. All that this counselor has to go on are statements made by a man deep in fog. Until you see the same counselor and are able to talk, any claims made will be guesses - if they are stated at all. It is entirely possible that the counselor said something like, 'that sounds like denial, yes' - which your husband then used as an attack on you. 

3) The counselor might not be pro-marriage at all, which means that they approve of affairs and divorce over commitment - if it makes you 'happy.'

In any of the cases listed above: ignore it. It's silly rambling.

Stay on track - the affair must end in order for the marriage to recover, and there are steps you take, one after the other, to ensure that you are doing things the right way, and that, in the end, you will be able to say with a clear conscience that you did everything you could.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Don't make any decisions like this for at least 6 months, if you can help it. You need that time to be able to think from logic, not emotion.

So...you asked him to stop contacting her and he said...what?

If you are going to expose, you need to do it all in one day, because once he figures out you are telling people about his affair, he will JUMP on the phone and start calling everyone else - BEFORE you get to them - and tell them all that you are crazy, over the bend, vindictive, on meds...you name it, he'll say it about you.

So I'm sorry, but you NEED to tell his mother at the same time you tell his brother, any other siblings, his best friends, his pastor, his counselor...anyone whose high estimation he needs. His mom can handle it; trust me (I'm probably her age). He needs to know that the people he cares about most KNOW what he is doing and are not happy with him. Why? So he can see that it is NOT true love (if that's even what he's after; many men just want more sex), she WON'T be accepted by them, and they are disappointed in him.

You also need to find HER contact info - her husband, parents, and siblings - and tell THEM at the same time. 

Even if you feel like you want to leave him, do this. It needs to happen, for a variety of reasons.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

The problem is that he is not even admitting the affair so how I can I ask him if he is willing to stop it?

What I was thinking is basically to put it in writting something along these lines:

Option A:

He ends the affair and we both take responsibility for whatever part we have contributed towards this situation. All contact with her has to stop FOREVER. We go to marriage counselling we work on rebuilding trust. It may take time but it could also work.

Option B:
We separate/eventually divorce maybe. At this point we sit down and figure out what possessions we divide(we have no house to sell, we are renting). Our major assets are 1 car and money in the bank. I am not interested in being a golddigger, I just want what's fair for both of us and for our child. Whatever money I get from alimony/child support is going to go towards the benefit of the child anyways(most of it). I am not interested in fighting Jerry Springer style. Basically discuss all this in civilized manner and if we can't agree on something we let lawyers sort it out. He knows very well that I am not out there to take him to the cleaners(even though I could if I really wanted to).

So while I am gone to Canada he can think about these options and let me know which one is it going to be. Divorce is my last option and not the avenue I want to pursue but I can't force him to stay with me. Maybe he needs to learn a lesson from this other woman to wake up from his dream.

As for the exposing I want to tell everyone I plan to at the same time for the reasons turnera mentioned above. He is already trying to make me like I am nuts so I don't want other people to think this way.

What do you guys think about my thoughts on all this?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You have it ALL wrong. You do not ASK him to do ANYTHING.

You tell him that IF he wants to stay married to you, he WILL write her a no contact letter, give you access to all his passwords, and agree to a GPS in his car. 

PERIOD.

YOU have the power here. 

USE IT.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Ok so you are saying don't even give him the options at all or just say what you said above as part of option A?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you found out HER contact information?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Why should you be giving him any options? HE CHEATED ON YOU!

You should be mad as a wet hen right now, not second-guessing yourself. 

He thinks you're an idiot, weak, clingy, hopeless, and stupid. Sorry, but that's how he's acting.

You need to IGNORE everything he says to you - EVERYTHING - except "I'm sorry I hurt you, and what do I need to do to make it up to you?"

If he doesn't say this to you, you need to kick him out of the house and/or make plans to take the kids back to Canada. 

I'm sorry if I sound rude, but this is the single most critical moment in your marriage. If you cave now, he will have control over you for the rest of your life.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

notreadytoquit said:


> Ok so you are saying don't even give him the options at all or just say what you said above as part of option A?


This isn't about what he wants to do or not.

It's about what YOU can live with.

You CANNOT live with a cheating husband.

If he cannot accept that fact, then YOUR choice is to leave him. (Unless, of course, you do choose to keep him no matter what he does.)

This is only YOU stating YOUR boundaries. He is free to accept your boundaries, now that he's cheated, or to suffer the consequence of losing you. You are NOT telling him what he has to do. You are telling him what YOU are willing to accept.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

notready - don't be so readytoquit!

First - there are separate, distinct steps you can take that very often result in a positive outcome - and usually the person taking the steps benefits greatly - even if the wayward spouse does not. 

You can't do them out of order, because each one builds on the foundation laid by the previous step. Every step is done rationally, and calmly - for the sole purpose of producing positive change in the marriage.

Step _one_ is to find out if there is an affair. 

You did that.

Step _two_ is to confront your partner - to let them know you know.

You did that.

The next step is to '*placard*' - (that means, state or declare something) - the fact that the affair needs to stop. In this step - as I wrote before - you don't need to persuade your partner of anything. You don't need to convince, threaten, whine, cry, yell, plead, or in any other way make any attempt to get your partner to have any response at all.

All you do is make the statement. You are then left with two possible paths to follow (work on the marriage - or move to the next step designed to end the affair.) 

When you write this: 



> The problem is that he is not even admitting the affair so how I can I ask him if he is willing to stop it?


You are misunderstanding this step. It is not designed to get him to stop. You certainly HOPE he will. But that's not the point. This is the point where you draw the line. This is where you define a boundary that has been crossed: 'your action has crossed this line...'

How he responds gives you the information you need to proceed. Yes, you ask him to stop. Certainly. Do not be concerned if he denies it - you have proof! It doesn't matter how he squirms, evidence is still evidence, proof is proof.

If he denies - you move on to exposure.

If he agrees - you move on to rebuilding.

That's all you need to do right now.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

turnera said:


> Have you found out HER contact information?


Yes I have her cell number, email addresses, home number and her husband's name. But the problem is that I don't think she is working now and I don't know when to try to call the husband. I am not even sure what is going on in their marriage(I know it is not my problem). What do you suggest is the best way to contact the husband?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If you know his name, do a search (pay for it if you have to) for HIS cell #.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

what is the best website to find someone's cell number?


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

notready - You have so many balls in the air right now that something is bound to fall and get lost. It would be easier for your sanity to take this one step at a time.

I wrote above: you have confronted him and told him you know about the affair (caught him red handed, as a matter of fact.)

The next step is to confront him and let him know that one of your boundaries has been crossed (you cannot live with an unfaithful partner). As I pointed out before, this step does not include giving him direct choices, it does not involve trying to get him to understand his infidelity, nor to admit it.

What it does is clearly set the path for your next step. Now, before you proceed to the next step (exposure) may I ask one question, to clear up some misunderstanding that I am having? My question is this: Do you believe that you have stated clearly to him that the affair needs to stop and he needs to stop all contact with the Other Woman?

If you believe you have (and it kind of seems that you have) then you are on the right path by gathering information (phone numbers, email addresses, etc.) But please don't jump the gun - it gets too confusing if you have to keep retracing your steps and redoing things.

If you feel that you have finished the placarding step - then move onward. If you don't really think you have - please stop now and do that first! But go slowly, one step at a time. You have time!

(BTW just google for phone number lookup sites...)

----------------
Now playing: Pink Floyd - Nobody Home
via FoxyTunes


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Ok that's weird - my browser inserted the song I'm listening to!


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Yeah but how cool are you listening to Pink Floyd!


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

I told him that I would not tolerate this affair but in his state of denial I don't think he was listening.
Today he is supposed to give me a letter so I am able to take our son to Canada. 
But once I am there I will put that in writting to him. He seems to listen more to things when they are put on paper.

Iam also seeing a lawyer here in the US today and I will see one in Canada as well.

Yesterday of course he went and changed all his passwords but since I still have the GPS in his car I know he went to meet her in her neighbourhood probably to plot some strategy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Sorry if I'm being too practical here, but I would be careful about the keylogger. Certain states have privacy laws that you might be breaking by having installed this on a computer that isn't yours. I don't think you would be in any "trouble", but I'm not sure you could use the evidence in court. You might want to keep the keylogger to yourself until you've spoken with an attorney.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Spoke to a lawyer today. Basically no matter how I look at it the law would be on my side. He is not even aware of what he might lose. As for the keylogger he said that I am fine because he has not been really using that computer for "business". Heck he is either browsing sports, or articles how to get younger or what women want. He even checked out an article on how to recognize a cheater.

The lawyer also said since I have the evidence of the affair that even if I expose it to everyone he cannot sue me for defamation of character since I am presenting the truth. 

He did give me the letter today about taking the child to Canada. He is even acting friendly. My sister cannot believe how normal he is acting. He must know that I have told her everything.

As for the bank I went and they told me I can get my own user name so I should be fine about accessing the account online.

The only thing now that I want to ask him one more LAST time: Is he going to END this affair now and commit to rebuilding the marriage or NOT. That is if I can find him to ask him. Again he is at the gym and at his office. Tomorrow am he is leaving early for a flight to go for job interview(he is not lying about this). So I may have to ask him that question via email. I will tell him I need a yes or no right now.

I will be seeing a lawyer in Canada as well.

I just can't see right now how a marriage in this stage can ever survive, I really can't see that.

Oh and I am leaving voice recorders at home on several locations while I am away just in case he brings that w**** at home while I am away. I did not bother cleaning the house and I did not even bother to change the bedsheets on our master bedroom(I am sure he won't take her to the basement)

I am also taking all my valuables jewlery/documents back to Canada for safekeeping.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

So tonight before going to bed he says to me that he has not said anything to his mother about us. His mom is going away for two weeks on Sat(I will be still in Canada when she comes back). Then I ask him: are you going to end this affair or not? I just need to know yes or no? The he says I try to pick up a fight and again dismisses everything. So I told him fine then I will have to move to plan B with a smile.

I have only presented to him the list of the hotel dates and the copy of his cell phone bill. I still have the secret email with some tender loving exchange between them. Why would he be so worried about me telling his mother anything if he has nothing to hide?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

EXACTLY why exposure is the most IMPORTANT tool you have!

Telling his mother what he's doing would mortify him and make him question what he is doing. NOTHING can take down a man like his mother's disappointment.

Please don't skip that step. He has given you his answer: "I will not acknowledge what you are saying."

Fine. Go get help from his family and friends and the OW's family.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Note: Turnera says 'Go!' (Hee hee) - Go!

It is time for the *next step*

This will shed light on the affair, it will bring it out of hiding and present it to the world, to family, friends and employers. It will show that he has been lying, unfaithful, disrespectful, unloving and untrustworthy. It will put the spotlight directly on him.

This has a huge chance of ending the affair. Proceed carefully and completely.

If this does not work, there are more steps to take.

In the meantime, however - you must now become the Greatest Wife in the World (plan A via Marriagebuilders, Carrot & Stick via Affaircare). You need to show him the woman he fell in love with - and what he will be losing if he does not return to the marriage.

----------------
Now playing: Bob James - It's All Right
via FoxyTunes


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## kdswim (Mar 26, 2010)

turnera, Tanelornpete and Affaircare - You guys rock! Notreadytoquit is lucky to have you here to help. I have been browsing threads for a while and still can't figure out how to post a thread. I am dealing with SO's emotional affair and would like some advice. Please advise. Thanks and rock on!


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

kdswim, at the top of the list of threads is a button to start a new thread.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> I have been browsing threads for a while and still can't figure out how to post a thread. I am dealing with SO's emotional affair and would like some advice. Please advise.


Yeah - as losinglove states - on the main thread page (not an individual thread topic - in the topic area) click on 'new thread' - I will try to do my best to help you.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> Note: Turnera says 'Go!' (Hee hee) - Go!
> 
> It is time for the *next step*
> 
> ...


I am now in Canada. Came yesterday. He is all worried about me going to see his mother. She is on vacation for two weeks starting today but I will be still here when she gets back. He mentioned he does not want his mother to come and visit in the US. I told him that if he has nothing to hide then he should not be worried about his mother.

Now I also have an email from his secret account where he says things like "love you", "miss you" to the other woman. He does not know I have that. 

Tomorrow I will be seeing a former colleague and friend of his(family oriented guy, him and wife and kids know us all). I would like to tell him and show him one of these emails. Is that a good idea or bad since I have not shown that to my H yet? Or should I email it to my H and ask him if he needs more proof?

And when his mother comes back I will go and tell her so whatever happens, happens. I have nothing else to lose.

Spoke to a lawyer in the US on Thursday, he basically said no matter how we look at it things are looking up in my favor. And since the affair started while both of them were working at the company he could be in lots of trouble(misconduct). But he suggested not to go that route yet.

I will be seeing a lawyer here in Canada next week.

Veronika


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yes, tell his friend but tell him you are going to call everyone else on one day to ask for help stopping the affair, so ask this guy not to say anything until you let him know it's ok, if he wants to call your H


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Turnera,
What about my mother in law? He does not want me to go and see her but I do. I was even thinking of taking her back with me to the US so he can deal with her.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

notreadytoquit said:


> Turnera,
> What about my mother in law? He does not want me to go and see her but I do. I was even thinking of taking her back with me to the US so he can deal with her.


Yes, she would be a very important person to involve - especially if she holds any value in her son's eyes. If her opinion means anything to him, and she is willing to stand up for marriage, then by all means, she is one of the best to involve.

Just keep this in mind: the purpose of exposure is NOT punishment, vindication, or any other form of gossip. It has one aim in mind - to shine light on the darkness of the affair - to pull it out of hiding. By exposing the affair to those to whom he is lying, the lies become unavailable to him - they will work no longer. 

This is a crucial step - and very, very effective. Also keep in mind that you need to do all of this step as quickly as possible, try to get to everyone on the same day or so, because if the affair partners become aware of this activity, they will quickly devise new lies to counteract you - making you seem crazy, or even a liar.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

By all means talk to her, even bring her down if you think it will help. But I wouldn't do it until you're ready to tell everyone. Believe me when I say that once the wayward finds out you are telling people, once they start calling HIM (if they do), they will JUMP on that phone and start heading off everyone else, and tell them all you're crazy, need to be committed, he had to call the police on you...trust me, he WILL do it, if you don't call everyone in the same 2 or 3 hour period.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Update:

I am still in Canada and I just got of the phone with the OW Husband. They are already in a process of divorce he is still living at home and just waiting for her to buy him out on the house. They have two kids 17 and 10 year old.

I have not exposed the affair yet to friends and family. Just one former coworker of my husband who I saw yesterday knows about the affair.

What do I do from here? If I were to expose the affair what do I write in that letter?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Dear XXX,
I'm writing to you because my husband XXX is having an affair with XXX. I want to save my marriage, and I know that if they were to stop all contact with each other, he and I could refocus on our marriage and make it better than ever. But right now, the excitement of the affair is clouding his mind to what's going on all around him. I'm asking for your help and advice. If you and XXX could talk about this, he may begin to understand the ramifications of what he is doing (and hopefully understand that his family and friends will not approve), and end his affair. If you're uncomfortable to do so, I understand, but even a letter or email to him would help him see that his affair is destroying our family. Please help us in any way you can, and God bless you.

Thanking you in advance,
nrtq


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## amanda1959 (Mar 29, 2010)

Start therapy with one therapist in the same room and open that file of yours. He moved out of the bedroom...he is distancing himself from you and most likely having an affair. Trust your gut.


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## amanda1959 (Mar 29, 2010)

I just read that you have gone ahead and phoned the OW husband. Now you know the OW is on the way out. Your husband could be to I can't believe you are not confronting him!! He is confused and conflicted get answers now!


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

I emailed the therapist as well and she emailed me back saying that I should move on. Now is that a good therapist even though we have not had a single joint session?


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## amanda1959 (Mar 29, 2010)

Stop it you are going in circles...talk to your husband now! I have never had a therapist TELL me what to do unless she has come to some final conclusion that there is no other solution. It sounds like itistimetoquitreadyornotmylove. sorry relationships can be so painful this one was not meant to be...it takes two! good luck to you and your young child


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> I emailed the therapist as well and she emailed me back saying that I should move on. Now is that a good therapist even though we have not had a single joint session?


No - that's not a reliable therapist - but as a friendly word of advice, you should not be seeking marriage advice from a therapist without your husband there. Seek counsel for your own issues, and wait till you can take the marriage to a counselor. By that I mean, there are three entities involved in marriage counseling - you, your spouse, and the marriage. All three must be present in order to work on solutions.

Turnera offered a great letter format - just use that and keep up with what you are doing - you're doing great.


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## FebStars (Jun 29, 2009)

Therapists are humans too, and make mistakes. 

We had a therapist once that disclosed information about another one of her patients - she even used her name! It turned out we knew the person she talked about. How unprofessional is that?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

notreadytoquit said:


> I emailed the therapist as well and she emailed me back saying that I should move on. Now is that a good therapist even though we have not had a single joint session?


LOL  *sigh* notready, please remember too that there are individual therapists (those who treat the individual), marriage therapists (those who treat a marriage) and then there's me and Tanelorn--PRO-MARRIAGE coaches. The difference is that my take on it is to take a stance that is *FOR* the marriage, and encourage the parties to save the marriage if it is at all even vaguely conceivable. Not all marriage counselors are pro-marriage; and we do not advocate saving the marriage at all costs (like in the case of physical abuse for example). But there is a big difference when a person is Pro-Individual but Not-So-Pro-Marriage, as their advice may tell the individual to "pursue their dream" or "follow their heart" whereas a pro-marriage counselor would encourage the individual to find ways to pursue a dream within the realm of their marriage! Make sense?

My guess is that the counselor you spoke to is NOT a pro-marriage counselor.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I had a coworker go to one and she turned into someone we couldn't even recognize, after her counselor convinced her she had given up all her dreams and had the right to pursue them, no matter who she ran over (including her husband) in the process. Not a pretty sight.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

well I am still in Canada. He calls maybe every other day or sends me a message on BB to ask about our son. I either call him back briefly or send him short msg to say son is well, I say nothing about me.

In one of the emails that I have not shown to him yet he says to the other woman he loved her. This was like in Nov 09. At the same time when I read his emails to me at that time he also told me he loved me.

How much of this is real love towards this OW?

In the meantime I got in touch with her husband. They are in a process of divorce. He sounds like a nice guy. From what I have heard from him she is very manipulative. He said she does not care if she destroys another marriage. They have been married 18 years, two kids(17 and 10) both kids completely manipulated by her, no respect for the father. He told me last year he graduated from university after trying to work and go to school at the same time and only his mother showed up at the graduation. The OW has accused her husband of having an affair with a friend of hers which he denied even beingh true. And now she is cheating on him. The stupid bimbo left a copy of a reservation of a hotel she stayed recently with my husband in NYC in the garbage. He saw his name, googled it, found out he was her boss, found us in the phone book. 

Why is my husband not seeing this in her?

I will be confronting him with the rest of the evidence when I come back and ask him point blank where do we go from there. I will tell him that I am fed up with the humiliation and the pain he is causing and that I want to move on with or without him. Right now I don't want to upset him because I am affraid he may withdraw large amount of money from our bank account here in Canada and then it will be a real uphill battle to get that back.

Our 5th wedding anniversary is coming up in few weeks. That will be such a hard day for me.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Can you get some of that money moved, yourself?


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

I could but we have not started any divorce proceedings yet so I don't want to make things worse by doing that. I will be consulting a lawyer next week on that.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

notreadytoquit said:


> I could but we have not started any divorce proceedings yet so I don't want to make things worse by doing that. I will be consulting a lawyer next week on that.


Are you jumping to divorce stage before doing anything else?

----------------
Now playing: Ah Nee Mah - Night Voices
via FoxyTunes


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

I am getting fed up with his arrogance and lies. He won't admit anything and I won't allow to be humiloiated anymore. He just won't talk to me at all about this. What am I supposed to do? Spoke to his brother tonight, they are also shocked. But he is not close that much to him so I am not sure what he can do. He does not have other family in Canada. Honestly I am starting to become emotionally detached from him. I just want my normal life back with or without him. And he keeps on waisting money in the mean time.

My family has written him off the list already. I don't know if I could trust him again and how do I do that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

notreadytoquit said:


> I am getting fed up with his arrogance and lies. He won't admit anything and I won't allow to be humiloiated anymore. He just won't talk to me at all about this. What am I supposed to do?


To tell you the truth, I'd be worried about you if you were happy about his arrogance and lies. But it seems to me that being fed up with them is absolutely normal. Pretty much every person who has had a spouse have an affair has been fed up with their lies and arrogance. They are all pretty much amazed that their Wandering Spouse would not admit anything. They don't want to get humiliated again. 

But a lot of marriages - a LOT - have recovered from these very things. This means that your particular situation is no different than any of the others. The only difference is that this time it's YOU experiencing the troubles, rather than someone else.

So, the question becomes - are you Not Ready To Quit? Are you willing to do all you can to save your marriage - and wait until the day when you can say 'I gave it everything that could be done to save it,' instead of 'I got fed up with him lying and decided not to try any steps that might have worked to recover the marriage....

If you are willing, let me know - there are steps you can take. There is hope. 



> Honestly I am starting to become emotionally detached from him.


This is normal. In fact, the truth is that if you build a marriage on emotional attachment, it is bound to fail, because at various points emotions fluctuate. The fact that they do is one of the main causes for affairs. People want to get that 'emotional high' back - but, and here's the real trouble: They are not willing to work at it. Instead, they want it to sweep over them without any work. And that does happen every once in a while - but depending on that means that you will wander away from your spouse every time someone else makes you 'feel' better. The secret to a good marriage is work. Working at love, not waiting for it to magically appear.



> I just want my normal life back with or without him. And he keeps on waisting money in the mean time.


You can certainly end that part - get your own bank account. Put all of your money there. Insulate yourself! Let him waste his own money!



> My family has written him off the list already. I don't know if I could trust him again and how do I do that?


That's not something you need to worry about right now. Right now, you need to figure out if you want the affair to end, and if you want your marriage to recover. _That_ work comes later.

----------------
Now playing: Basia - Cruising for Bruising
via FoxyTunes


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Well, I have tried to talk to him, he won't. I tried counselling that now seems like a waste of time, I showed him evidence he still won't budge. Yesterday he said "send me whatever other proof you have, I don't care". In one of the emails he has said to this woman that he loved her and missed her and that really troubles me.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

All you can do is stick to your guns. Just keep repeating "when you are ready to STOP seeing any other woman and let me prove it through your transparency, let's talk. Until then, I have nothing to say."


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

But how long do I wait and waste my life? The OW is going to be free in June when her divorce is final.
Our 5th wedding anniversary is Apr 20. I feel like punching both her and my H in the face.

On top of it my H tells her he loves her. That does not give me lots of hope.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> But how long do I wait and waste my life? The OW is going to be free in June when her divorce is final.
> Our 5th wedding anniversary is Apr 20. I feel like punching both her and my H in the face.
> 
> On top of it my H tells her he loves her. That does not give me lots of hope.


Several questions...but first, I can completely understand how frustrated and angry you feel. That is normal and to be expected. 

First question: the steps you should be taking to do all you can to recover your marriage, and build a stronger and better one, each follow one another, and build a strong foundation for your overall well being and the chances that your marriage can recover. This is not guaranteed, but I've seen it happen before. These steps work. 

Having said that, how can you consider the idea that you did all you could to save your marriage - fought to the last breath to save something that was once good - and could be again...

...waiting and wasting your life? 

Second question: what is this 'waiting' you keep speaking about? Are you not working on getting your life in order, making sure all of the problems you had that made this situation a possibility no longer exist, taking careful steps to protect yourself and your son from harm? Or are you just sitting motionless, thinking that somehow something magic is going to happen? Haven't you separated your bank account? How could this be considered waiting? This is a lot of work!

Third, your husband tells her he loves her....

and....

what would you expect a guy to be saying to a woman he is getting familiar with: I loathe you? 

Of course he's saying he loves her! He feels all gushy around her. She hasn't had the time in his life to start Busting His Love! YOU, on the other hand, have had over five years where things started out the same way he feels now - but then you spent time together - and over those years you pulled apart some, let each other down some, didn't do everything right. And so he looked around and is pretending he has found the perfect match -

when all the time YOU are the perfect match: because that perfect match takes WORK - active participation. It NEVER happens like the movies - no matter how magical that affair may feel.

So are you going to take action, or are you just going to 'wait'?


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't want to sit motionless but this man does not even want to tell me what drove him to this affair. He is not admitting anything not saying anything. He just ignores the whole thing as if nothing happened. I can't start fixing things if I don't know where they are broken. He barely sticks around the house, does not share anything with me and I am all day by myself at home with 15 month old baby.

When I go back I will separate the accounts. The waiting I am talking about refers to turnera's last post. 

I honestly don't know if he wants to save this marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

He is trying to bluff you. He is a man. He is used to running roughshod over a woman, out-manipulating her, out-threatening her, getting what he wants. He is used to just DENYING everything, and the woman becoming her typical insecure, "NICE" self, and apologizing for doubting him. Most likely, he's been using this practice since he was a teenager...and it worked.

Now that you are willing to stand your ground and DEMAND respect, he will have to sit up and take notice...or lose you.

Unfortunately, it may take LOSING you for him to realize you were serious.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Yesterday he went to visit his brother whom I have already told about the affair and emailed him proof of his emails with the other woman. My brother and sister in law were in shock. He did not tell them anything and then his brother showed him the email just before he left. He read it and basically said it was not true. Is he nuts denying a proof like that?

I am starting to think something is seriously wrong in his head.

Today he went and changed the password on that secret email account and tried to screw around my cell phone(which is still under his name)


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

notreadytoquit said:


> Yesterday he went to visit his brother whom I have already told about the affair and emailed him proof of his emails with the other woman. My brother and sister in law were in shock. He did not tell them anything and then his brother showed him the email just before he left. He read it and basically said it was not true. Is he nuts denying a proof like that?
> 
> I am starting to think something is seriously wrong in his head.


He is having an affair. He is in la-la land. 

On top of that, he is certain that if he continues to deny this, you will back down. My guess is that you've played this game so often in your marriage that he knows how to use it - it's pretty much a habit for him.

As long as you refuse to pay attention to this, and move onward acting on the truth, his actions will become weirder and weirder. That's a good thing, because pretty soon MANY people will begin to see this. Eventually he will have to face up to himself.



> Today he went and changed the password on that secret email account and tried to screw around my cell phone(which is still under his name)


That no longer matters - you already have proof. You don't need any more. 

Question: do you have more exposure to do? If so, get that done very quickly.

If not, move on to the NEXT step - forget about gathering evidence. You have that. Forget about exposure - although you can always do it when you find someone else (that matters) who is not aware of the situation. You've already done that. 

You have moved to a different stage in recovering your marriage. Time to start on that.

I will point this out though: get your OWN phone service - cancel the one in his name. Let him pay any fees. Get your OWN bills and finance YOU from now on.

----------------
Now playing: Willie Nelson and Leon Russell - Trouble in Mind
via FoxyTunes


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

notreadytoquit~

It seems to me that for a long time you were in the "gather evidence" mode and weren't really quite ready to believe yourself that it was an affair. 

Once you got irrefutable evidence, it seems like you got stuck again in "prove it to him" mode. You know as well as I do that it is an affair. To be blunt, an affair is "acting in a way so that affection and loyalty are not committed and dedicated to a private person to whom loyalty is due; not adhering to promises (vows)." See, when you and he exchanged marriage vows, you both promised to give 100% of your intimacy (deeply opening up and knowing you) to one person and one person only. Clearly he has given affection and loyalty to another, so even if he denies it, it IS an affair. But now, over and over again you keep saying, "Well I showed him the evidence and he keeps denying it. How can that be? I guess we have to divorce." 

notready, remember what I said about my exH? I had soiled lingerie not mine, hotel registration for "Mr. and Mrs." when we had never been there, a credit card payment for a night at that hotel, and surveillance video of him and her walking in and leaving! MY GOD how much more evidence can you get? He denied it. I've known disloyals who were caught IN THE ACT (as in...their spouse walked in on them having sex) and as they put their clothes on they said, "It's not like what it looked like." 

My point here is that it sounds to me like you're stuck wanting him to see the evidence and say (with a sad face), "Wow you're right. I am having an affair. I'm sorry." And in the most polite way possible, I'm telling you that is not the way that disloyal spouses behave. They are not themselves, remember? They act out of character and are addicted to their affair-zing. Do drug addicts lie in order to continue their drug? Do they hurt people they love, even steal in order to get more drug? Then it's mildly unreasonable to expect an addicted disloyal to just admit "Yep I'm a drug addict--take it." They are going to fight TOOTH AND NAIL to keep their addiction!

So notready--please move past the "Well I showed him the evidence and he won't admit it" stage. He has admitted it by his actions--by doing things like going to the secret email and changing his password now. The evidence was about 99.9% to convince YOU, because it's hard to admit to yourself that your spouse would do that. You know it's true, so move on to step #2: Exposure. 

How do you plan to expose the affair to everyone who will make a difference and support the marriage? Who will that be? Tell us THOSE plans and let's get un-stuck here.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

I will get my own phone but unfortunately I am not allowed to work in the US under his work visa. So financially I depend on him at this moment. This is why I am trying to come back to Canada with the child if I can and then go from here and decide whether I end this marriage or not. I just wished that all this happened while we were in Canada. It would have been so much easier. I am not even sure if he will give me another permission to come with the child like this to Canada again.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Okay I am not a lawyer here notready and I'm speaking in huge generalities, but from what you've described I'm guessing he has an H1B visa and is no longer working for that company...and you and your son have an H4 visa.

One MAJOR issue is going to be that if he's not working for the H1B company, he may have to face leaving the USA soon himself (I believe). If he was laid off and they provided him with a good severance package, and as part of that, he's receiving a regular pay stub for another couple months (after stopping to work for them), he would be considered "out of status" from the day he stopped working for the employer. However, he can find a new employer and they file a new H-1B petition for him, and he'd have to show his pay stubs. Therefore, it may still be possible to extend or change status during the period you are receiving severance payments. The USCIS overlooks brief gaps in pay stubs, but that is not always guaranteed so if he doesn't get on the ball, he'll be headed back to Canada. 

Would I be correct to assume that you can work in Canada--you're a citizen there? I would think it would be wisest to check with a lawyer, see if you can stay in the country of your citizenship where he may (or may not) be returning himself. Then go ahead and set yourself up with your own place and job so that at least you're not under his control...and baton down the hatches to fight for the marriage!

This way--you've got something to do so you're not just "sitting around waiting on him." You'd be checking your legal rights, finding a place to live, getting a job, making sure you and your son are secure-ish, and simultaneously working to improve yourself (looking better and better) while the affair crumbles (looking worse and worse).


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Better yet, if you already have a job when he starts to pitch a fit about bringing his kids back to him in the States (IF he does that), it will make more sense for the kids to stay in Canada with you.

Remind me: Did you expose yet to everyone?


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Yes he is on H1B visa and he got 6 month severance which expires Jul 8. However his contract states that he has to get 1 year of severance. He will most likely get the other 6 mts. He is engineer by profession so he won't have trouble staying in the US on TN visa at least. He does not want to go back to Canada.

I am already making arrangements(appt,job) in Canada. I am seeing a lawyer in Canada to see if we can get divorced here and what my rights are. I already saw one in CT. A truly uncontested divorce takes about 4-6 months in CT. I don't mind travelling back/forth when needed but I really don't want to be around him there all the time.

If I end up choosing the recovery/forgivness route, will that set a bad example for my son(it is ok to cheat), will that make me feel like a doormat? I guess my current struggle right now is which direction I take.

As for exposing the affair I have told his brother and another close friend. His mother will find out when she gets back from vacation and I plan on telling few more of his friends today and tomorrow. I have told my family and 3 of my closest girlfriends. I even told our bank manager because he changed the online access to our joint account.

My family is furious at him and they think I am too nice to him. I am sorry I can't be the ***** he probably deserves. I don't think my family would ever forgive him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It will set a bad example ONLY if your husband doesn't come to you in humility and do whatever it takes to make up to you for what he did. That is an example of learning by your mistakes.

I'm not sure if that's realistic in your situation, though.

That said, I've seen more stubborn, self-righteous men than your husband realize what they did and turn around - but ONLY after the wife told them they were done with them, and the husband had to scramble to get back in her good graces. Nearly every example I've seen where the wife took the husband back without getting VERY strict boundaries in place, he cheated again. Because he just learned his wife is weak and he can get away with it.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

notreadytoquit said:


> Yes he is on H1B visa and he got 6 month severance which expires Jul 8. However his contract states that he has to get 1 year of severance. He will most likely get the other 6 mts. He is engineer by profession so he won't have trouble staying in the US on TN visa at least. He does not want to go back to Canada.


My "guess" just using common sense is that if you were married in Canada and you return to Canada where you are a citizen, you will probably be able to divorce in Canada. Here in the USA if one spouse has an affair and moves to another state, they can divorce in either location (their home state or the new one they moved to) and the spouse can ask for it to be moved to their venue. So I bet it would be something similar for you too--that even if he filed in the USA, if you needed to you could ask for it to be moved to your venue. 



> I am already making arrangements(appt,job) in Canada. I am seeing a lawyer in Canada to see if we can get divorced here and what my rights are. I already saw one in CT. A truly uncontested divorce takes about 4-6 months in CT. I don't mind travelling back/forth when needed but I really don't want to be around him there all the time.


I would like to encourage you to continue with arrangements like a place to live and a job in Canada, as well as seeing what your rights are. In addition, I would like to encourage you to consider an arrangement more like legal separation only to protect yourself and your son, and to give the affair time to "burn out." If he wants to divorce--let him do all the work! You want to stay married, right?  So get some things determined by law like the fact that he is responsible for at least some child support and can't walk out on that responsibility and then we'll work on some of the other steps to end the affair. Okay? As you can see though, you have plenty to do. 



> If I end up choosing the recovery/forgivness route, will that set a bad example for my son(it is ok to cheat), will that make me feel like a doormat? I guess my current struggle right now is which direction I take.


Well for one thing, correct me if I'm wrong but your son is just barely over 1 year old, right? I would guess that he wouldn't be aware of whether you're being a doormat or not as he's pretty young! However, I do know what you mean. Here's my personal opinion. It will teach your son to not break a commitment. It will teach your son that you honor your vows. It will teach your son that you can make a mistake and be forgiven. It will teach your son to think of others ahead of his own "happiness". It will teach your son that parents work things out--they don't leave each other over a "fling." So it's true there will likely be times you feel like a doormat, but there will also likely be times you feel strong and self-confident. 

I expect you to choose the "recovery/forgiveness" route when he realizes that he doesn't love her, that it's been a lie all along, that he lost his CHILD for nothing, and that he's sorry and wants to work it out. Thus, first he'll need to want to recover and be willing to work to recover the loving feelings with you. Your job, until then, is to try to keep your heart open to the possibility of forgiving him when he finally figures that out. 



> As for exposing the affair I have told his brother and another close friend. His mother will find out when she gets back from vacation and I plan on telling few more of his friends today and tomorrow. I have told my family and 3 of my closest girlfriends. I even told our bank manager because he changed the online access to our joint account.


Okay--do you have a pastor? How about his employer? If he's using the employer's laptop to carry on this affair, even though they laid him off and somehow has the laptop in the severance package, they need to know that they are at risk of a sexual harassment lawsuit. Their resources are being used to further unwanted sexual activity--and if they are not told, they're at risk.

Soooo...brother and another close friend, your family and 3 of my closest girlfriends, and the bank manager. Please continue today and tomorrow with more of his friends and family, your pastor if you have one, and his employer (or former employer). If nothing else maybe they'll reclaim their laptop and disable THAT method of their affair!



> My family is furious at him and they think I am too nice to him. I am sorry I can't be the ***** he probably deserves. I don't think my family would ever forgive him.


Maybe not but then again, his actions and his choices made it so that your family is mad at him, not your telling them the truth. They need to know so that they can support you, encourage you, and so that a divorce isn't "sprung" on them. You can tell them "It's my marriage and we've chosen to go to counseling and work it out" and tell them to stop. Then let him prove himself to them--it won't hurt anything!


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

So I have disclosed the affair to quite a few friends and family. Everybody is shocked and I made sure they also saw some of the emails as proof. Everybody encourages me to be strong but nobody seems to have the guts to call my husband. Is this normal? Is it enough that these people even know about the affair? My H does not know that these people know about the affair.

Spoke to a lawyer today in Canada. Just like in Ct looks like I will be in very good shape when it came to child/spousal support if it came to that. He would pay so much he won't have enough for his w****
At the end of the day I only care about good health for myself and my son because that cannot be bought with money.

What do I do next? He still does not admit anything. I am yet to talk to him about our future when I come back to CT.

I will be really surprised if I ever reconcile with this man. Don't want to sound pessimistic but that's how I feel right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yeah, it's very common. What's more important is that he KNOWS they know. Have you talked to his mom and dad yet? Or siblings? They are the ones most likely to call him. Ask them to. Ask them to tell him that everyone now knows. He needs to be aware of this, so he can decide if he wants to continue acting like a fool.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Today I feel like crap. He still just calls once a day just to ask about our son. My family wants to send him an email to express their disappointment. I saw the letter looks polite considering how mad they are.

I don't know why but I actually miss him today. Am I missing a person that no longer exists? Why do I feel this way? I am still mad and hurt by his actions and by his current behaviour.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Hey - sorry you're having a rough day. We all miss what we used to have. We miss them - or the old them - even when they aren't treating us right. Totally normal, but still really sucks.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

His mom is coming today from her vacation. He does not want me to go and see her and he says he will call her to tell her about us. But I doubt she will hear the truth. Should I still call her?
He still acts as if nothing happened, no appology, no remorse despite overwhelming evidence that he has now seen.

Its been more than 3 wks since I confronted him in front of the restaurant. Why doesn't he come clean and let's all move on?

Also everytime I send a message with something in regard to his affair he never responds. Why is he doing that? Is it because he is still in denial?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> His mom is coming today from her vacation. He does not want me to go and see her and he says he will call her to tell her about us. But I doubt she will hear the truth. Should I still call her?


Absolutely you should tell her! From the way he is acting, this is one person of whom he is afraid to let the truth reach.

The reason he wants to talk to her is to get in the preemptive impressions - he will be able to convince his mom that you are crazy, or vindictive - at best, lying about him. Make sure she sees your evidence.



> Its been more than 3 wks since I confronted him in front of the restaurant. Why doesn't he come clean and let's all move on?
> 
> Also everytime I send a message with something in regard to his affair he never responds. Why is he doing that? Is it because he is still in denial?


He is counting on you backing down and letting him have his way. I still suspect this is an old pattern the two of you developed over time, and will take some time to overcome. Stick to your guns, and don't give up!

----------------
Now playing: Bachman Turner Overdrive - Street Action
via FoxyTunes


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sorry but this time you will have be strong and 'mean' and do what you have to do - talk to his mother, show her the evidence, and ask her for help. No matter what, do it before he gets to her and convinces her you're crazy!


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

But what about a mother that defends her child no matter what?

I just want this to be over and done. Getting really tired of this BS. I wish I did not love him this much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

There's always that chance. But at the very least, SHE will know the truth about her son. And HE will know that SHE knows. That's important.

Believe me, the #1 most important thing in the world that he is afraid of is that you tell his mom.

How do I know that?

Because cheaters always make a big deal out of what they fear, and he has repeatedly told you not to tell his mom. He is petrified to think that she will find out.

That is exactly why you have to tell her. If anything can get through to him, it's her knowing.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

So I went to see my mother in law. She was shocked of course but she wants to hear his side of the story. She was really concerned about our son and his future. She said that none in their family is divorced. I told her that divorce is my last option and that I hope we work things out. She did agree that having an affair is not the way to deal with any marriage issues.

she does not want to meddle in her kids life but she said if her son came to talk she would listen.

So I don't know if I will gain something out of all this but at least I told her my side of the story.

She did not want to see any of the evidence but she said that she believed me few times during the conversation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Good job. That's all you can do.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

I hope things work out but not at any cost and not just because of the child. I emailed him tonight asking him to be at home Wed night so we can have a private conversation in the basement. I told him it's high time we sit down for a civil talk.
Hopefully he will at least acknowledge the affair. Any special questions I should remember to ask?

Also should I continue exposing the affair tomorrow? So far the people that know are: his mom, his brother, 3 ex colleagues to whose families we are close and one of his childhood friends(female). I think he might have even talked to her.

Anything more I can do now?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

By all means, call EVERYONE tomorrow. The only way your H is going to deal with his actions is if he knows that EVERYONE KNOWS. Do it before you talk.

And you keep trying to get him to 'acknowledge' what he has done. Why? What do you think you will get from that?

It won't fix your marriage. He'll just have excuses. He'll likely blame you. And you'll still be back at step 1.

Your reason for a meeting should be for what YOU have to have to continue the marriage. Please don't keep beating this dead horse, getting him to say 'I cheated.' You KNOW he cheated. Get past that. 

Tell him - again - what YOU have to have to EVER live with him again - access to his computer and phone, all his passwords, maybe a GPS in his car, a No Contact letter that he writes and YOU send to whatever OW he's seeing, no longer going anywhere without first letting you know, adhering to certain decent hours for your family...whatever you need.

This meeeting needs to be about what it would take for you to TAKE HIM BACK. 

NOT about whether he cheated. You are way past that. And you need the exposure for him to be aware that everyone important to him now knows he is a CHEATER. Why? So he can see that he can no longer do it and keep his reputation intact. THEN you two can talk about what his future life will look like. 

You may as well let him know his mom now knows.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

So today I went to see my MIL again so she can also see her grandson. We talked some more. She spoke to my BIL last night and he basically told her the same he told me that the evidence was disturbing and that his brother is not acting the same. His brother is also a bit disappointed in my H because they have not been closer over the years. My BIL has two small kids as well so he knows the burden of parenthood the first year and so on. He basically told my husband he would be throwing away a wonderful future and an opportunity to see his son grow.

In the meantime, my H has been calling more regularly to ask about our son. For second day he actually asked me how I was doing. I was brief with him did not say much. He actually did some work around the house, cleaned and did some laundry. I also exchanged few emails with the OW husband. He said that his wife has not been out lately. Not sure how long lately is but I don't want to keep my hopes too high. For all I know they could be keeping things low for the moment. My husband has not replied to any of my messages that refer to our marriage including the one from yesterday when I asked him to make sure he is home Wed night so we can talk privately. 

I am driving tomorrow to CT with my mom. She is coming to help me with the child. She will stay out of any conversations with him. My sister is sending him an email on behalf of my family to express their disappointment in his behaviour and the pain he has inflicted to all of us. Letter is polite no insults or vulgarities.

So why is he not replying to any of my messages regarding the affair and our marriage? How do I interpret that behaviour?

I cannot stay in CT but at the same time I don't trust him enough to move to any other place in the US with him at the moment. My idea is to suggest for me to move to Canada on a separation basis. He can come and see his son anytime and I will be closer to my family and his mother. In the meantime we'll see how things work out for us. JOb wise if he chooses I am sure he can also move back to be closer to us. If he comes clean and feels remorse about what he did and wants to try to fix our marriage I will suggest that we stay in Canada while we do that before there is enough trust between us to go anywhere else. Of course I will have other demands as well but that's just basic. What do you guys think of this?


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> So why is he not replying to any of my messages regarding the affair and our marriage? How do I interpret that behaviour?


My guess is that this is part of the same thing he's done all along.

I would like to point out something else though - you mentioned that you are having regular email conversations with the Other Woman's husband. I advise very strongly against this. One email - the one exposing the affair - is all you need to do. After that, a strong policy of 'no contact' should be in force. 

There is danger here that you might not recognize - but certainly do not need. It is way too easy for two wounded souls to end up confiding in one another - which leads on and on - it can easily spiral into an affair on your part. Please - don't contact him again - there is absolutely no need. You already know about the affair, he already knows about the affair. From now on you work on your marriage, he works on his.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

I realized the same thing. I won't contact him again but his marriage is over. Divorce will be finalized in June so she will be free and that scares me a little bit.

What do you think about the rest of my post about me and son moving back to Canada on some separation basis?


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> What do you think about the rest of my post about me and son moving back to Canada on some separation basis?


I think that's an excellent idea - on many levels. At home, you can work on you, and stay fairly insulated from his bad behavior.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

notreadytoquit said:


> So why is he not replying to any of my messages regarding the affair and our marriage? How do I interpret that behaviour?


I would say he's trying to avoid conflict and if he pretends long enough that it's not happening maybe you'll leave him alone. Also, it is 100% according to the Disloyal Script for them to say something like "It's not what it looks like" "We're just friends" or "You're just making something out of nothing." I have to kind of agree with turnera on this one though--why are we still beating this dead horse? You have proof in your hand that it is an affair and whether he denies it or not is irrelevant. It's not like he's going to say, "Well wow look at that evidence. I guess I *am* an adulterer." So since that's not going to happen, I say let go of the hope that he'll open his heart to you and gushingly admit what he's done. That is not reality. Let it go. 



> I cannot stay in CT but at the same time I don't trust him enough to move to any other place in the US with him at the moment. My idea is to suggest for me to move to Canada on a separation basis. He can come and see his son anytime and I will be closer to my family and his mother. In the meantime we'll see how things work out for us. JOb wise if he chooses I am sure he can also move back to be closer to us. If he comes clean and feels remorse about what he did and wants to try to fix our marriage I will suggest that we stay in Canada while we do that before there is enough trust between us to go anywhere else. Of course I will have other demands as well but that's just basic. What do you guys think of this?


Honestly I think that sounds reasonable. At this point he has put himself into a position of having to support his wife and child while the family lives outside of their home country--then he left you. Without his support, you'll have to support yourself at least somewhat, so you (notreadytoquit) will have to work and you can only do that in your home country. Thus I'd suggest not only returning to Canada and if he chooses to work on the marriage he can return to you in that country...I'd suggest getting a child support order in place so he is held to his responsibilities as a parent. He may well determine in his heart to do what he knows is wrong--but he should not be let "off the hook" for his obligations to your son. Furthermore, it should not be to your son's detriment to "visit" his father. He's way too young for a lot of inter-country travel just to make life easier for dad. Thus, I'd suggest that this is a perfect natural consequence for your H's choices--that when/if he wants to have time with his son, HE has to arrange it and HE has to make the travel and effort to get to your son. It seems just and fair that the adult who decided to break things up be the one who's also responsible to make the effort in order for them to spend time together. Thus two things can be established--the amount of child support that will be garnished from him and how HE will make the arrangements to travel to see his son. 

Otherwise I think this is very reasonable notreadytoquit.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Yesterday I drove with my mom and son for 8 hrs. He did not bother to even call to see how we are. About 3 hrs away from home I sent him a message to tell him we are ok and where we were. No reply. Got home around 7pm he is not home. I thought he was at tennis since the gym bag was not there. Sent him another message to say we are home and said that I hoped he would be at home too. I also let him know that my mom came instead of my sister because my sister had problems taking time off from work.

He emails back saying: "I don't know why your mom or your sister would come" and I was not sure when you were coming back".

He wrote me a letter with the dates of travel for the border, he knows how long the drive is to/from Canada and I certainly would not get in a car by myself with a 15month old baby. Is he nuts?

He said we would talk on the weekend. So let's see what happens.

Oh and tonight I am not sure if he would come home early. So much for missing his son. Unbelievable.

Oh he also snooped around my laptop. I think he might have figured out about the GPS and the keylogger. I don't have problem telling him what I did(not proud of it) but I certainly had to find out what was going on in my marriage. Am I right thinking like this?


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

You might want to forget about trying to control where he is, where he goes, when he is there and not, what he says in his emails, and just get to business with the actual steps that lead to recovery - or at least, to self improvement.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sounds like he's digging his heels in. He doesn't want your family's judgment of him, so he's trying to bully you into keeping them out of your life for now. He's trying to punish you by not being available so you will feel sorry for what you've done to him (gag). I'm sorry to say it, but the only thing I can see changing your situation is more pressure to end the affair(s) and/or you leaving him legally.

I agree, just give up expecting something from him that's not going to happen - some people will self-destruct, lose everything, rather than admit fault.

Just concentrate on what YOU need, irrespective of what he offers.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't see how this can be reconciled. I mean he just refuses to communicate. I cannot believe someone could change this much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

My first instinct is that he was taught, as a child, that admitting fault would result in BAD consequences. His brain has hardwired that information so that even if he wanted to do the right thing, his wiring is preventing it. That's what I mean by some people will self destruct rather than admit fault.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

I think I may have to do the legal route.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

notreadytoquit said:


> I think I may have to do the legal route.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For what purpose?

----------------
Now playing: Traffic - Stranger To Himself
via FoxyTunes


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Well normal reasoning does not seems to do me any good. At moments he acts nice then, like nothing happened, then he gets upset if I bring up anything about the affair. Almost like bipolar. 

And what's the hard I miss him so much but I know what I miss no longer exists. I will just have to learn to live with it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

notreadytoquit said:


> Yesterday I drove with my mom and son for 8 hrs. He did not bother to even call to see how we are. About 3 hrs away from home I sent him a message to tell him we are ok and where we were. No reply. Got home around 7pm he is not home. I thought he was at tennis since the gym bag was not there. Sent him another message to say we are home and said that I hoped he would be at home too...


It would appear that he has not been living "at home" and in this instance if your mom came with you she is a witness that he is not living at the home. By chance have you gotten the personal calendar like we suggested so you can factually notate these things day-by-day as they happen? (A day-by-day personal calendar is admissible as evidence to indicate a pattern of behavior--you turn in the whole calendar. Your "memory" of dates and times is not admissible.) If not, get one now, today, and note that you drove 8 hours, arrived, he was not home and will not be coming home for three more days. Where did he say he plans to be?  



> He said we would talk on the weekend. So let's see what happens.


 Do you plan to sit and wait for when it's convenient for him to "show up"? Or are you planning to pack your things, put them in the car or ship them, make arrangements for the move, and then speak to him with a packed UHaul? 

Okay I'm being a little snide there but he has a lot of gaul to not bother to even show up until the weekend. It is consistent with his behavior of burying his head in the sand and pretend it's not happening. 



> Oh and tonight I am not sure if he would come home early. So much for missing his son. Unbelievable.


This should be noted in the personal calendar as well. It may be pertinent to child support and custody discussions, so make a note. 



> Oh he also snooped around my laptop. I think he might have figured out about the GPS and the keylogger. I don't have problem telling him what I did(not proud of it) but I certainly had to find out what was going on in my marriage. Am I right thinking like this?


He could have chosen to tell his spouse the truth or even now to come clean with what is happening. As it is, he left you no alternative and as in interested, invested party you do have a right to know. That I know of, it is not illegal nor and you've had legal consultations so don't let him get too grouchy on that point. Hey, my spouse can keylogger me any day because I openly share everything with him! So don't worry. It wasn't the world's BEST behavior but it wasn't anything to be guilty about either. 

notreadytoquit, may I make a suggestion? You say you may need to go the legal route. It would appear that he is not going to deal with this at all and that he is going to attempt to just drop out of your life and his obligations to you and to your son. I would suggest that it's reasonable to go for a legal separation that outlines his required legal duties to you, child support, bills, etc. so that he does not just drop out of his obligations. Also it would put an impartial third party in there "enforcing it" so that he can't just say you're being mean or selfish. 

However, I would also suggest that you do NOTHING to start or assist with a divorce. If he wants that, he is going to have to be the one to get off his backside and do the work for it. I'm not saying you necessarily *want* him back right this moment, but rather than start a snowball rolling downhill that you can't stop, just do nothing on that front right now. Give this a little time. A few things are bound to happen:

a) as more "real life" is introduced into his fantasy, the affair is likely to break apart

and

b) as more of his obligations are enforced by an outside third party, he'll start to see that his behavior is NOT acceptable to society

So for now, just as we are suggesting to showtime, just do what you need to do to protect yourself and your son, and work on YOU. Make yourself a wonderful woman, wife and mom and then if his head comes round, you'll be amazing and he can figure out how to win you back. If not, you'll still be amazing and someone will get a very healthy, wonderful woman and your son will have a mom who stood up and did the right thing for him.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Ok so we finally had our talk.

He wants a divorce. He wants to do it in Ct but we both agree I can move back to Canada and then just come when necessary for divorce proceedings.

He is being very generous with everything: furniture, car, money. He basically said he would double the money on the alimony privately with me so I don't pay taxes on that, I keep the car and I can pick what I want from furniture and other household items. Child goes with me. Neither one of us has problems as to visiting the child, seeing his mother who also lives in Toronto.

My husband has always being a generous person no doubt about that. But I think deep down he also wants to be generous to keep me from talking about the affair.

He is still not admitting anything. Spoke to his brother and he will see his brother and mother on Saturday. He can manipulate his mother on emails(she is computer illiterate) but his brother told me he believes everything he saw and so did everyone else that I told about.

I do need the money to start my life from scratch that I gave up 3 years ago. And I have a child. But in a way I don't want his money. I have never been after anyones money.

At the end I asked him why is he doing all this.. He says he has been unhappy(even though never tried to talk to me). He keeps bringing up this one fight we had back in Canada(probably the only one we had in 9 years), yet afterwards he acted fine, he was the loving husband, we were intimate, went through infertility, had a baby that was basically miracle, went through 1 year of motherhood all by myself in a different country with no friends and family nearby. So I could have been negative maybe. But when did he try to talk to me? Between diaper changes? On days when I barely got any sleep?

What a life! I don't know but I have been crying a lot this afternoon. Why? For a person that no longer exists?

He almost seemed in a good mood after the conversation because he came home to spend few minutes with our son. He tries to avoid the house because my mother is here.

I am going back to Canada in two weeks to go apartment hunting. Will be there for another two-three weeks. He has no problem with it.

Here is the funny part. Unknowingly we have both consulted the same lawyer in Ct. I told you we think alike. He consulted the lawyer in February before I discovered the affair. He even offered to pay the lawyers expenses. But I refused on that I can afford that much.

I'd like to here everyone opinion on this.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Oh and his mom is upset about the divorce.I told her it was not my decision that I suggested separation instead. The woman believes in working things out in a marriage. Our marriage was never given that chance, not in the last 3years.

She is also upset that he does not want me to come on Sat with him at his brothers
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm so sorry. I'm sorry for him, too, when he realizes that the life he will now have - which he thinks is going to be so wonderful, now that he's 'free' - is going to be a sad fake version of life. And 30 years from now, he'll hate himself for doing this.

You could stay, but it won't work. It just won't. He wants to please himself too much to ever care enough about you. That said, moving home just may give him time to realize the grass really isn't greener.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> He wants a divorce. He wants to do it in Ct but we both agree I can move back to Canada and then just come when necessary for divorce proceedings.


First question: what's the difference between divorce in Canada and divorce in CT? While I advise you to have NOTHING to do with the actual filing (let him do all the work, etc.) I would be very careful about where you file. He is going to do it as fast as he possibly can so that he gets you out of his hair, as conveniently and as cheaply as possible. So be aware that what might be best for you (and the marriage, I might add) may not be in doing what HE chooses.



> My husband has always being a generous person no doubt about that. But I think deep down he also wants to be generous to keep me from talking about the affair.


I also advise you to be very cautious about this 'generosity.' He has shown that he does not have your best interest in mind, I would not be surprised if this generosity did not dry up if things don't go exactly how he dictates them.

He is still not admitting anything. Spoke to his brother and he will see his brother and mother on Saturday. He can manipulate his mother on emails(she is computer illiterate) but his brother told me he believes everything he saw and so did everyone else that I told about.

It _doesn't matter_ if he doesn't admit anything! That is completely, in all ways, irrelevant. It isn't anything you need to think about, or concern yourself with. You know the truth. So does everyone else. That's what matters. So quit dwelling on the fact that HE won't admit it. He doesn't have to SAY THE WORDS. His ACTIONS already admitted it. It's done, finished, you have the proof.



> At the end I asked him why is he doing all this.. He says he has been unhappy(even though never tried to talk to me). He keeps bringing up this one fight we had back in Canada(probably the only one we had in 9 years), yet afterwards he acted fine, he was the loving husband, we were intimate, went through infertility, had a baby that was basically miracle, went through 1 year of motherhood all by myself in a different country with no friends and family nearby. So I could have been negative maybe. But when did he try to talk to me? Between diaper changes? On days when I barely got any sleep?


THIS is what I mean by the affair being a FANTASY. He has created a world full of reasons for his actions - that are not based in reality. SO don't concern yourself with his reasons. He is making them up. The reality is that there is some sort of issue in your marriage that needs to be addressed and solved. That's all.

----------------
Now playing: Jeff Beck & Stanley Clarke - Diamond Dust
via FoxyTunes


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

I would like to thank everyone that has been very helpful here on this forum especially turnera, affaircare and tanelornpete with their very sound and practical advice. You guys were way better than that marriage counsellor I went to. There may not be any prospect right now to save my marriage(read above why) but at least you gave me some guidance as to what to do.

I will be seeing a divorce lawyer probably either Monday or Tuesday. We are going to go through collaborative divorce procedure and if you have any other input as to how to behave, what to say and do please do not hesitate to post.

Divorce is a horrible experience, who knows if my now husband will ever come to his sense and if I would ever consider taking him back. I just feel horrible about our 15 month old son who I felt was never given a chance to live in a normal family(my eyes are watering as I am writing this) and for our marriage where the problems(where I still don't know for sure what the real problem is) were never addressed in a serious manner but rather through an affair on my husband's behalf that he flatly denies(nobody that I told ever believed he was capable of something like this). It hurts a lot when that person was the love of your life and I know time heals everything or most things at least. I am not revengeful person by nature but this time I hope what goes around does come around

On Tuesday is our 5th wedding anniversary. I don't know how I will live through that day. In a way I feel like sending a nasty message to the OW but I know she is only partly to blame for all this. On the other hand I want to punch my husband right between the eyes. My mother is here with me so my husband barely spends like an hour at home, other than sleeping in the basement at night. He will be away to a job interview that day out of town and overnight. I just can't believe that up until last summer/early fall we were planning where to go for this week.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

I am about 80% certain you should take your divorce to Canada, rather than here in the U.S. 

That would give you a lot more time for things to work out between you two, and you'd have the courts more in your favor - but that's just my opinion...


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## Ted (Mar 2, 2009)

I have been keeping up with your thread all along, I didn't post anything before, because I found it hard to give any better or additional advice to what Tanelornpete, Turnera, and Affaircare shared.

But I wanted to write now to tell you how sorry I am for you. and that you have to go through this. Please hang in there.

And I would agree with above statements. He may talk about a nice simple divorce, but don't believe any promises that are not part of the divorce settlement. If he could not honor his marriage vows, I doubt he would honor any promises outside of court. And Tanelornpete has a good point about doing it in Canada may actually be better for you and possibly even the marriage. (I still hold out hope for you, that he will come to his senses, and see the grass isn't greener, and reconciliation could take place.)

Good Luck.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> I am about 80% certain you should take your divorce to Canada, rather than here in the U.S.
> 
> That would give you a lot more time for things to work out between you two, and you'd have the courts more in your favor - but that's just my opinion...


There is an option that I can move the proceedings in Canada but I will first have to discuss the option with the lawyer here. The lawyer in Canada told me that whatever judgment happens here in CT I can get it revised or changed in Ontario(meaning getting more money if that is the case). I will actually let the two lawyers discuss this option. At this point I just want to get back to Canada asap. I have the support of my parents and friends both financial and emotional at this point.

At this point we don't have a house to split, he does not want the car and the rest of it is money in the bank and retirement savings. The child will be living with me, we'll make arrangements for visits(he will stay in the US). If he takes this new job he is inteviewing for now he will be travelling a lot especially overseas. I told him to just make sure he changes his life insurance policy to his son. I have already changed my life insurance to my son but I put my sister as trustee so in case something happens my H does not collect the money if my son is minor. 
He only has his mother in Canada so it is not going to be complicated. His brother and his family also live in the US. As for visiting he agreed to fly at least once a month to see the child plus holidays. He is Catholic and I am Eastern Orthodox so most of our holidays are two weeks apart so no arguing where to go for Xmas or Easter. Thanksgiving in the US and Canada are month apart so that is not a problem either. 

I am also considering an option where I would take whatever the courts decide on alimony/child support plus a larger lump sum of money from him since he offered to help. Then when I am back in Ontario I may pursue the option of maybe changing something if I feel that it is necessary. The reason why I want that larger sum of money is to potentially use it so I put it as downpayment toward a condo so we are not renters for years and move around all the time. I really don't care about any special furniture(just what is needed for the baby) or other household/kitchen items. The less things I have around me to remind me of him the better.

I will try to work on myself and not worry too much about him or whether he wants me back or not. I will deal with that if it becomes an issue at the time.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Thanks again to everyone and if you have any other ideas to share let me know. You guys are better than any marriage counselor out there.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

notreadytoquit~

The first thing I want to say is that in a way it sounds like you're thinking through this rationally, allowing "experts" (lawyers) to advise you of the legalities, etc. and I'm grateful to see that, but I know that behind these reasonable sounding words is literally a lifetime of love and pain in even talking about this option. My guess is that you're not a big emotional sharing person on an anonymous forum, and that's cool--just know that I know your actions are "taking care of business" but your heart is dying. Okay?

Next, I want to mention that since it is clearly an affair and he clearly is acting like he wants the marriage to end, that may not necessarily mean "the end." Let me explain. When we walk people through the steps of ending the affair, it is to give them the very best chance of ending it, saving their marriage, and then recovering afterward. Obviously this can't happen in every case; sometimes the affair partners are so stubborn or prideful that even when it is CLEAR they are wrong and no one will support them, they'll continue with what's wrong anyway...and then live a life that's a mess because they're too proud to admit their choices were wrong! Sadly, there's not much we can do in that instance except give the original marriage every chance and every possibility... 

In your instance, your spouse was unfaithful to you and caught. In every moral code I know, you have the right to be the injured spouse and declare the vow broken--you would have the right to move on and remarry and he would not. In every legal code I know, even the sort of "no-fault" set up of the USA, if there were to be grounds declared, you are the one who would have the right to declare adultery and he would not. So in every conceivable way I can think of, you have the right to walk away and with a free conscience. Furthermore, even after discovering it you had the character to still try a little longer and give him the chance to make it right! So KUDOS for you--you have done above and beyond! 

But just so you know, the ink on the divorce decree is not dry, and until it is you two are married. If you choose to do so, there are still things you can do to try to save your marriage. For example, as Tanelorn said, let him do the legwork and pay for legal fees and file--meaning don't make it "easier" for him to cover up his affair--let him go through the consequences of his choice to leave. Consider transferring to Canada because it is a one year waiting period. This gives him a year to burn through his affair and discover that it's not as rosy and the grass isn't really greener...BUT it also does tons and tons more damage and harm to the marriage! Nonetheless, rather than a quick 90 day divorce "throw some cash at her and she's gone" and then he thinks he's free to bring out the other woman... he'd have to wait a full year before it would even be put on the docket -AND- even if you stayed reasonable but just didn't agree on some things it could take another whole year! Can you imagine keeping the other woman hidden and denying she exists for two years? Can you imagine an affair built on sneaking, lies, and unfaithfulness lasting for more than two years? I can't either. The real trouble is this--think of the damage he'd be doing all that time to you!  

So it really is in your hands. At this point I can't think of a single person on the planet who would judge you for choosing to leave. You've fought the good fight and behaved admirably. But I do want you to know that if you have it in you, there is a choice...okay?



> There is an option that I can move the proceedings in Canada but I will first have to discuss the option with the lawyer here. The lawyer in Canada told me that whatever judgment happens here in CT I can get it revised or changed in Ontario(meaning getting more money if that is the case). I will actually let the two lawyers discuss this option. At this point I just want to get back to Canada asap. I have the support of my parents and friends both financial and emotional at this point.


Just to be clear, I think we may be talking about two different things here. The divorce "negotiations" (shall we say) and the final decree. If you transfer the negotiations of the case to Canada, they do have that mandatory one-year waiting period (during which there are temporary orders), then it is scheduled for court, and THEN you'd prepare papers for the orders. After back and forth... the orders are DECREED. Here in the USA there is only a 90-day period from filing to decree. During that 90-days you have temporary orders, do discovery, do mediation meetings to reach an agreement, and then go to court to get the final decree. So the difference is 90-day fairly quick divorce here in the USA vs. one-year longish divorce in Canada. Also just a note--the state of CT is one of the states in the USA that does allow for grounds to be declared, and you may throw some wrenches into his "quickie divorce" if you declared the grounds of adultery and then had the chance to prove it in a court of law  I'm just saying...it's an option to consider. 

Finally, I join Tanelorn in warning you about his "promises" right now. His motivation now is to get rid of you quickly and quietly so he can carry on his affair with some semblance of looking alright, and he probably thinks that if he promises you more money or more stuff that you'll go away. The problem comes in when he says he'll give you money "under the table" over and above what the courts order, and you sort of depend on that money say to pay a bill or pay for something for your son...then OW starts complaining about "You're sending money to HER again? How about me?" and he just stops. Since it's not court-ordered, he has no obligation to continue, and he's already demonstrated that he doesn't follow through on his promises and is willing to lie to get what he wants. So if you want something from him, get it IN WRITING and enforced by the courts. Do *NOT* believe his "promises" and do not fall into the trap of thinking, "Well he's a generous person...he always has been" because this man who's having the affair is not the same man as the husband you married. This man is capable of lying, cheating, sneaking, hiding, deflecting, pretending, and blaming--and he does NOT have your best interests at heart. He doesn't even have his child's best interests at heart! If he's thinking of anyone, it's himself and only himself (and yeah--I say this as someone who was a disloyal spouse!). So verify everything, get it in writing, get it enforced by court, and do not believe him no matter how "nice" he acts. 

(I'm not saying he's a bad guy. Nope, in fact he's probably a fairly decent fella if he could get out from under the influence of this affair. But I am saying that while under this influence, trusting someone who's untrustworthy is not wise.)


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

I will be getting everything in writting. The lump sum I am asking for is going to go officially through the lawyers. I want that lump sum so I don't depend on his promises or be under his control.

As for the quickie divorce vs the 1 year at this point I don't think it will matter. He is very stubborn and he will die before he admits anything. There is no guarantee he will change his mind even in a year. But if he wakes up one day I even remotely consider taking him back it will be ALL on my terms. After the 90 days and if I get what I want there is nothing to stop me to still tell other people why we got divorced. The emails and the proof I have are sitting in a safety deposit box and on a memory stick in Canada. His reputation is at stake here and that is something you can't buy with money. He was a CEO of a company. He is very well respected in his industry. And many of his business associates know me very well too. And I can contact them all if I choose to. The few that I told were disgusted by his actions.

I am actually getting my lawyer from Canada to speak to my lawyer in the US so I get the best deal possible.

today my husband took our son to his brothers house. His mom is there to because it is her bday. He did not wanted me to go even though they invited me. Spoke to them few times in the last two days. My MIL wanted me to come but my husband didn't. They are staying there overnight so he can see what I go through at night with a baby all by myself.
So this pm my mom and I went shopping to an outlet(I was reasonable with money). After that we stopped at the restaurant where I caught my husband, had dinner and put the bill on our joint credit card. He has been spending money like crazy lately on clothes, dinners and of course hotels. So he does not say a word when I go to buy something for myself. I have actually lost about 15 lbs and I really need new clothes. And I am still reasonable with how I spend the money. 

My friend thought it will be pretty funny when he sees the charge from the restaurant.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Oh one more thing to mention. When you go through divorce in Canada you can go retroactively to count the separation time. So in our case would be beginning of 2010. Once the year has passed you file for divorce and that is completed in few months. So I am not really gaining another full year. 

As for me sharing my emotions online, I have no problem. I am crying everytime I post something here. Yes I do understand that my heart is dying inside me right now. But on the other hand staying longer in a life like this can take serious toll on my health and my son needs his mother more than anything right now. So I have to look at that aspect too. I know that nothing is final until you sign things but I am not going to keep my hopes too high so I don't get disappointed. 

And knowing how his mother feels and how his brother feels he may have a hard time showing that woman in front of them. His mother cannot comprehend how he can go with another older woman and take care of her kids(the kids are staying with the OW) and leave his own child. His mother reasons very well. She even told me: If he has done what you are telling me(she did not want to look at the emails) than maybe you are better off without him. You don't deserve to be treated this way. She said people compromise in marriages and people work on marriages. Marriages do not work themselves out on their on. Effort has to be put by both spouses. 

She says I will always be her daughter in law and I am always invited in her house(whether her son likes it or not, that's his problem).

I am sure I will go through emotional ups and downs from now on and I count on your support as well to get me through this period. And I hope other people on this forum learn from my experience.

Yesterday I was cleaning out some smaller clothes of my son. I had kept some of them for our second child. Now I am giving them away to Salvation Army. And I did tell my husband what I was doing. He did not say anything.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You have a great MIL. The best thing you can do is stay in good with her so your son grows up with both grandmas. You're in pain right now, but a year from now, it'll be easier to spend time with her, so keep that in mind.

As for your divorce I agree that you should make it last as long as possible before it's official. If nothing else, it will take that much time before your ex will be 'legal' with OW - causing strain to the affair and possibly ending it. And even if the two of you don't get back together, I want that affair to end! I don't want your son to have to have that woman in his life, knowing she helped tear his family apart. So I would still be exposing and fighting the affair - once you have your legal protection in place!

As for the agreement, let your lawyer handle it - do NOT get involved. If your H tries to talk to you about it - and he will, once he gets over the guilt and realizes he promised you the moon, and wants to renige (sp?) - say ONLY 'My lawyer is now handling it. Talk to him.' 

And tell your lawyer to be a bulldog. You want him to fight for every penny he can get - it's best to shoot for the moon rather than be nice, and get half. Trust me. If you don't do this, you will get taken to the cleaners. HE chose to cheat, HE gets to pay for it.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

One more thing to ask you for advice. Should I continue to expose the affair to other friends and family now or should I wait until I get what I want from the divorce?

His mother does not want to say anything to rest of his family that are mostly in Europe but I can. In a way I want to respect her wish but I also want the truth out. She is normally embarrased as a mother of his actions and maybe she will not tell them everything. At the same time I want to keep good relations with her.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

You've already exposed the affair. No, you don't need to do more. At this point you should move on to the next step.....


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> You've already exposed the affair. No, you don't need to do more. At this point you should move on to the next step.....


Well I am already looking at the lawyers list here. Not exactly the step I wanted to take but he left me no choice. He does not want this marriage period.

Just spoke to my sister in law to ask how was he at his brother's during the weekend with his mom there. His mom tried to talk to him but he refused to discuss. She told him repeatedly that he should REALLY Think about his actions before he does anything. I know he wont.

As for the exposure I have told his brother,mother, two former ex colleagues who also know the OW, another two former colleagues from another company where he worked, my best friend in Canada, my family, the bank manager, my H best childhood friend, another colleague of my husband who is used to work with him here but moved back to Europe, one of my husband's cousins in Canada. He still has lots of family in Europe I would like to contact and few other friends in Canada. I think I will tell them now before he spins his story.

I am already making apartment arrangements in Canada even MIL offered we stay in her place if we need to. Work wise I am also networking with past employers plus my sister is helping me. I still have to organize the move, get the car over the border(lots of paperwork on that one). I don't want to rush with the move because honestly I would rather get that lump sum of money than stupid furniture.

As far as how I feel now, well I feel like crap. Sometimes I get thoughts through my brain like:

"Is he worthed taking him back"?
"Will he sober up before the ink is dry on the divorce?"(I know you guys advise me to do it in canada.)

Deep down I still hold little bit of hope for a little miracle but I don't know if that would be the best deal for myself at the end. It is not easy to get rid of feelings one has had for so many years. I feel in a way I will always love him but it will be a version of him that does not exist anymore.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I would send out a message like "I just wanted to let everyone know that H and I will be divorcing (or separating, whichever you decide), due to his refusal to end an affair he's having. If you need to contact me or our child, please use this number:X-XXX-XXX-XXXX. We will be at this address: (list address). Thank you for your understanding."


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Today he tried to get me to go mediation instead of collaborative divorce. He said he would email me in writting what he proposes. I told him no to mediation but I told him I would look at that document and discuss it with my OWN lawyer. Today I spoke to few that left me good impression and I am still waiting for call back from few other. 

I think he is scared **** if I open my mouth further. He has not asked me who I have told but I did tell his mother.

My dad(he was a doctor) says he is in some sexual craziness right now and he says with people like that you never know when they will sober up on that. I guess no money will stop me later to tell few more people about his affair after everything is final.

I honestly don't see how I would even think about reconcilliation with someone like this no matter how much I may want that. Is that even possible?

I think I gave my marriage a fair chance so far. Anyone else would have been gone long time ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Reality check....



> Today he tried to get me to go mediation instead of collaborative divorce. He said he would email me in writting what he proposes. I told him no to mediation but I told him I would look at that document and discuss it with my OWN lawyer. Today I spoke to few that left me good impression and I am still waiting for call back from few other.


What's the difference between collaborative and mediative, other than that there is a neutral third person who helps divide possessions rather than the two of you simply arranging that yourselves?



> I think he is scared **** if I open my mouth further. He has not asked me who I have told but I did tell his mother.


Of what? If you are pulling for a divorce, it doesn't matter any longer what people think! He'll be free to do whatever he wants.



> My dad(he was a doctor) says he is in some sexual craziness right now and he says with people like that you never know when they will sober up on that. I guess no money will stop me later to tell few more people about his affair after everything is final.


Your dad is right - affairs are like addictions. There are examples of that all over this site. But: just to let you know, the AFFAIR ends the day the MARRIAGE does. After that, it's just another relationship. The comment about money 'buying you off' makes no sense: if you meet someone after your marriage, are you going to want to make sure the world does not know it? Why?

_I honestly don't see how I would even think about reconcilliation with someone like this no matter how much I may want that. Is that even possible?_

Of course it is possible. It happens all the time!



> I think I gave my marriage a fair chance so far. Anyone else would have been gone long time ago.


This was pretty much a 'run of the mill' standard, textbook affair, so I'd have to disagree with you on the 'anyone would have been gone long ago...' I've known people who give it a LOT more effort than you - in some instances it worked out and they are happily married, and in others, it finally ended in divorce.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

In mediation you have 1 neutral person acting between the two of us. In collaborative divorce we each have a lawyer and then we try to find middle ground. I am yet to meet with my second lawyer to discuss options.(We ended up consulting the same lawyer unknowingly)

As for the divorce I was never for it. And I will not be the one filing. Of course I wanted to make my marriage work but not at the expense of my health. This whole situation is already doing damage to me. 
Other than trying to move the whole thing back to Canada I don't know what else I could have done. Can you suggest something else?He is very stubborn, he does not talk to anyone about this situation other than the OW. I mean he went to see a lawyer when we were trying to go to counselling in Feb and I did not find out about that until 2 days ago.And maybe he has to lose us before he wakes up to realize what he has done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> As for the divorce I was never for it. And I will not be the one filing. Of course I wanted to make my marriage work but not at the expense of my health. This whole situation is already doing damage to me.


Actually, may I point out that although it feels like the situation is doing the damage you are suffering, in reality this is what you are doing to yourself? 

I don't mean to discount any pain you are experiencing - that is quite real. But what is happening is that a human being is taking certain actions, and you are seeing those actions and _reacting_ to them. That is _entirely_ understandable, but at the same time, I hope you can realize that when you say 'I wanted (notice the past-tense form?) to make my marriage work - but not at the expense of my health' that the damage you are experiencing is due to the things you believe SHOULD be happening that AREN'T - and you are expending ALL SORTS of energy virtually WILLING things to go the way you want - and stressing when they don't. 

This has been a pattern for you all the way through this process - and, while I say again that it is understandable, I will also point out that it is not necessary. 

Keep in mind that the only damage a person can really do to you is physical - cutting, stabbing, punching, shooting, poisoning, etc. A person gets over an emotionally abusive relationship - _not when they leave it_ (all that does is create a reprieve until the next abusive relationship), but when they no longer choose to react the way the person doing the abuse WANTS them to. 

The health damage, the harm you are experiencing (other than the exhaustion from travel) is due to the fact that you are choosing to expect 'X' from your husband, and instead getting 'Y' - and this makes you angry, it confuses you, etc. 

That's why we've given you concrete steps to take - REGARDLESS of your husband's actions. I.e., "this is what you should do" and "here is why." 



> Other than trying to move the whole thing back to Canada I don't know what else I could have done. Can you suggest something else?


Do you know why we suggested moving the thing back to Canada (and THEN starting the year of separation)? I don't know about others (except Affaircare) but there are a couple of reasons: 

The first is to force your husband to keep the affair going _as an affair_ - which is damaging to that relationship, especially after more and more family members, friends, etc. begin to understand what is going on. One you are divorced, it is no longer an affair.

The second is to give you a longer chance to take the next TWO steps without the divorce creating an additional hurdle. Yes - there are two more steps to take before you would consider divorce on your own!

And yet you seem to be leaping over these two steps ... for what? To enable your husband to get what he wants more easily?



> He is very stubborn, he does not talk to anyone about this situation other than the OW. I mean he went to see a lawyer when we were trying to go to counselling in Feb and I did not find out about that until 2 days ago.And maybe he has to lose us before he wakes up to realize what he has done.


It may be that he has to love you before he realizes that he did - but that may not phase him. The issue here is still the same! You claim 'he is very stubborn, he won't talk to anyone about this situation other than the Other Woman. From my point of view, that is completely irrelevant. Where is it written that he must talk about this to someone? Why should he? 

Because you want him to? Well, that certainly may be nice, but I've found that a lot of what I want does not always happen. 

And regardless of that - there are more steps you can take that can definitely give him cause to re-examine his views - all without you feeling the pain of him not submitting to what you want him to do. And these steps can be taken clear up to (and, in reality even after) a divorce. We've talked about this in many threads - I haven't gone back over yours to see if they've been discussed (I'd be surprised if Affaircare, Turnera, or myself had NOT already pointed them out.)

The question is are you really serious about being 'notreadytoquit' - from many of your posts, it seems like you are pretty much 'alwaysreadytoquit'  

Are you still willing to take more steps? Even if they seem pointless?


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Ok go ahead and shoot:
1.Got evidence
2.Exposed the affair to where it matters.

Based on his behavior and his actions what do you want me to do next IF for some reason moving the action to Canada does not work as I think it will? I just don't want to get into situation of him threatening with our child.

Remember I need to establish myself in Canada with a place to live and work before filing for separation. So it's not even a simple move.

So go ahead make more suggestions but I think turnera said somewhere that sometimes people like him have to lose someone before they realize what they have done. Maybe in my case losing me through divorce is the way he will wake up I don't know.

His mother said she cannot help anymore than this. At the end of the day it is her son and she does not want to cut him off completely from her life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> Based on his behavior and his actions what do you want me to do next IF for some reason moving the action to Canada does not work as I think it will?


Well, first - what do you think moving to Canada will do?

And - what do you mean 'threatening with the child'?


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> Well, first - what do you think moving to Canada will do?
> 
> And - what do you mean 'threatening with the child'?


Get me out of this environment I am in right now
Give me fresh start(work, reconnect with friends, closer to family), being able to work on myself give me some breathing room.

What if he says: You can't go with the child. I don't want to look like I am abandoning the child and I would never leave my son. I just don't want the child used as a tool for revenge or bargaining.

Did I miss something?

Also what would happen if I say to him I am not giving him divorce? Can he force it on me legally somehow since he has been sleeping separate since January? I will be asking the lawyer this for sure as an option.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Since Ct is No Fault state I cannot stop by myself the divorce if I refuse to sign anything. That is automatically considered irreconcilable differences. Just checked on the Internet


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> What if he says: You can't go with the child. I don't want to look like I am abandoning the child and I would never leave my son.


He can say pretty much anything - he could say 'You must be 10 foot tall and blue' but that doesn't mean anything. You will not lose your child - at the most you would end up with 50/50 custody, but I imagine your lawyer will be better than that.



> Also what would happen if I say to him I am not giving him divorce? Can he force it on me legally somehow since he has been sleeping separate since January? I will be asking the lawyer this for sure as an option.


The use of the word 'force' is unusual - this is something that pretty much does NOT involve force. In essence, you are not required to sign the papers, all that happens is the eventually a judge will sign off on the divorce and it will be over. 

This does not mean, however, that you do not have the chance to challenge the decree, reword it, get it to state what YOU consider fair. It just means you don't have to sign it.

As for the steps we use for marriage recovery:

1) Gather evidence
2) Confront
3) Expose
4) Plan A
5) Plan B
6) Divorce

You've basically gotten half way - and in reality, you can do plan A and B even after a divorce - especially if you think there's a chance for remarriage. It's all up to you. Like everyone else on here has said, no one would or could fault you for divorcing your husband. You have moral grounds. 

The question instead is, is it worth keeping up with attempting to save it?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Hey notreadytoquit~

Whew! It's been an active day! Okay LOTS of topics! Just to be sure I'm on same page and understanding what has occurred, here they are: 

1. _He asked you to go to mediation instead of collaborative divorce. In essence this means an impartial person helps you two reach an agreement, then some legal person writes up the agreement. _

I personally agree with you that is not wise. At the very least I think you should have your own attorney, and you should tell your attorney that you want to save the marriage. Thus your attorney can advise you on ways to stall and give the affair time to end...and your attorney can legally protect your best interests! I guarantee to you that in his current state of mind, your husband is NOT thinking of what's best for you, but selfishly thinking of himself. 

In all your legal activities think of these three goals: Save the marriage, Protect what's left of the family while your husband goes AWOL for a bit, Protect you and your son. If you keep acting in that order, you'll do GREAT!

2. _His mom won't help end the affair or really talk to him/tell him it's wrong "because he's her son" and she wants to be in his life._ 

Unfortunately this is sometimes the case--and more and more often these days. Rather than standing up for their values and what they believe in, parents and families will often condone any behavior a) because they want to be part of the spouse's life or b) because "it makes them happy." Well here's what I say to that: Pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft!

You thought highly enough of her to think she had the character and morals to stand for what was right. What a shame that you were incorrect; but the shame is on her and not on you. 

3. _You're thinking of moving back to Canada and worried about "what if he threatens the custody"?_ 

What if he says you're a tall, blue goat? ARE you a tall, blue goat?  No of course not. He can threaten anything he wants, but that neither makes it happen nor makes it enforceable. Look here are the legal facts. He is your son's parent, and as such he has both financial obligation (whether he wants to or not) and privilege to spend time with the child. But the child is young, you were a Stay At Home mom, he was a mostly absent father, and you have no criminal record. There is no reason to believe his threats would be anything other than hot air and if documented in the personal calendar as I suggested a while ago--may be part of a pattern of threatening to get his own way that you can demonstrate. That's IT! 

Notreadytoquit, before this is over, it could entirely turn ugly, antagonistic, hostile, even downright combative! I can't tell you how many divorces I've seen start "friendly and agreeable" because the disloyal thinks they can push through a "quickie divorce" if they throw enough money at it. Hey chances are good that OW is giving him some pressure to leave you (because obviously he wold NEVER do that to her...their love is special *gag*)!! But as soon as he has to not bring her around your son, he has to send you child support and alimony, and all that money can't go to her--she'll start complaining, he'll get combative to show her he's serious--and it all spirals downhill. 

Soooooo...begin to prepare yourself now that it's conceivable this may not go all friendly. If that happens, you don't have to sink to that level of mire but I'm just saying, be ready. Threats are usually not worth the hot air used to breathe them. 


AND 4. _You were wondering if you can just say "I'm not giving you a divorce" and you're considering with Tanelorn about whether it's worth it to keep doing the steps of ending an affair. _

Since there are more steps to do, I'll let him keep talking to you about all the steps. There are still at least two more you can do if you decide to do so. Also in the USA, you can not completely avoid a divorce by saying "I'm not giving you a divorce." But you can slow them down and stall them...by maybe declaring grounds of adultery for example. In that case you need to prove adultery using testimony or evidence from someone other than a spouse--but who's to say you don't have that kind of evidence? It would slow things way down and "adultery" would be on your divorce papers rather than "irreconcilable differences" or "marital breakdown." You can also request a counseling requirement. That means request that the court ORDER you two to attend marriage counseling before you can divorce. There are lots of things you can do to slow things WAY down so that he has to take his time...and so that he has the time to get over this fantasy and realize what he's doing.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I would only add that you always have more time...if you don't make things final. And that you are a ball of emotions right now, so you know that's not the best time to make a decision this important. 

Take a break. Get a legal separation order in place so that he has to financially support you for now. Take six months to move back home to Canada and get your life back. Think about things. See what he does.

THEN make your decision. What have you got to lose?


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Well here is an update. We are proceeding with collaborative divorce. I picked a good lawyer. Later by accident I found out that the husband of the OW is also using the same guy. No conflict of interest lawyer says since we both do collaborative.

However my husband said I had conflict of interest in using my lawyer but would not say what that conflict was(he almost admitted his affair).

He also tried to bully me to sign a waiver for him to use a lawyer that we unknowingly saw for initial consultation. I refused and he backed down. 

He proposed a settlement that basically insults my intelligence so I am working on counter offer now. We are most likely having our first meeting next week. My H seems to be in a rush. Maybe he is planning a June wedding or vacation with his w****

I also found out he now has a separate blackberry and I got into his cell phone again. Surprisingly no phone calls/texts to the other woman on that phone at least but they could be using BB to communicate.

Unbelievable to what lenghts he has gone to cover up, deceive and lie about this whole thing. Even if I were to forgive tomorrow would I really want to have someone like him by my side? He can never be trusted again. I swear she must have completely brainwashed him. 

What scares me is how will I ever trust another man? How can I regain trust when I have been deceived to this degree? Do you suggest some sort of counselling to cover this trust issue even if I don't reconcile with my H ever again? What has been your experience?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

BY ALL MEANS you need to be in counseling! So that you can understand this was HIS choice and that, while you owned 50% of the marriage issues, you owned 0% of the choice to cheat.

Just remember, YOU are the one who can look at herself in the mirror. In 20 years, after his life has been filled with shame, anger, and regret, you'll have moved on, found a man who DOES honor commitments and his wife, and found a whole better life.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Thanks turnera, I thought along the same lines. I will also ask for money for counselling since our government health care in Canada does not cover that and even if I got benefits from work they may or may not cover it. I have no guarantees I will get a full time job soon.

Any other suggestions are also welcomed. You guys have been great support throughout this process. I know it did not have the positive outcome I hoped for but you were the friend I needed to talk to that I did not have here in CT


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