# Swinging. What happens when the fun stops & adultery steps in



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Headley murder: Man shot dead at Surrey village 'swingers sex party' | Crime | News | London Evening Standard

I'll monitor this story.

This is the rather sedate Surrey Police statement on the event
http://www.surrey.police.uk/news/mu...a-man-discovered-at-private-party-in-headley/


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Still not sure what happened in this story, but I'm really surprised that we don't hear about more murders or other violence associated with the discovery of infidelity. After all, that is the biological/instinctive/hormonal reaction to it.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> Still not sure what happened in this story, but I'm really surprised that we don't hear about more murders or other violence associated with the discovery of infidelity. After all, that is the biological/instinctive/hormonal reaction to it.


True. The problem here is that as the ownership of firearms is comparatively rare in the UK, the shooting would have had to have been premeditated. I.E., no chance of someone having a Concealed Carry Permit suddenly finding their spouse in the arms of a lover, as concealed carry permits were abolished in the UK about 20 years ago.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*IMHO, "swinging," whether spouse endorsed or not, is "cheating!"

The only real difference is that each spouse actually gets to lay witness to the other "performing" the illicit and often soul-killing act!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

arbitrator said:


> *IMHO, "swinging," whether spouse endorsed or not, is "cheating!"
> 
> The only real difference is that each spouse actually gets to lay witness to the other "performing" the illicit and often soul-killing act!*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I get criticized for the same view a LOT. I keep telling people adultery is defined as a married person having sex with someone who is not their spouse. There is no exception listed for those who do it with permission. Meaning, even if the spouses agree, it's still adultery.

That said, we don't know that adultery was involved. It's easy to assume, but for all we know the guy with the gun was a high end drug dealer who was there to supply the party guests and some sh*t went down between him and a customer. Could have also been an ex, a stalker, or even a professional or personal rivalry.

It'd be nice if some witnesses came forward, even anonymously, and filled in the who and why.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *IMHO, "swinging," whether spouse endorsed or not, is "cheating!"
> *


*
How can it be cheating when there is no deception? I'll grant that many people don't do it with the full "responsible" part of responsible non-monogamy. But many do.




The only real difference is that each spouse actually gets to lay witness to the other "performing" the illicit and often soul-killing act!

Click to expand...

*


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It cracks me up that people with NO experience on the subject can opine so readily on what "often" happens.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Perhaps the police report is so sedate because there was a house of lords member in an ostrich suit.

So sorry for our British reader that you can't own guns in the UK.

I guess the question is why swinger events are not shot up more in the US?

Tamat


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

Jealousy makes you do crazy things.
I think swingers especially have to be really careful with who they invite into their lifestyle. Who knows when feelings might develop and allow for something to happen. I'll be it this is an extreme story but end the end result of the marriage being broken up is a big possibility, IMO.


Sent from my iPhone


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

TAMAT said:


> Perhaps the police report is so sedate because there was a house of lords member in an ostrich suit.
> 
> So sorry for our British reader that you can't own guns in the UK.
> 
> ...


That is standard for ANY police press release in the UK! 

For example, when they take someone in for questioning they say "A man/woman is helping the police with their enquiries!" 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## optimalprimus (Feb 4, 2015)

I was in that pub last week....didn't know such exciting parties went on on my doorstep.

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

A swinging party right near the church?! 
Was it a lover scorned or something else?



Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## tripod (Jun 18, 2016)

Anyone else just amused as hell that the name of the pub next door is "The C0ck Inn"?


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

tripod said:


> Anyone else just amused as hell that the name of the pub next door is "The C0ck Inn"?


Wait, swingers party beside a church & a pub called The C0ck Inn? 
Comedians in England are loving this I bet! 

But sincerest sympathy to those lost & hurt. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

The Middleman said:


> Still not sure what happened in this story, but I'm really surprised that we don't hear about more murders or other violence associated with the discovery of infidelity. After all, that is the biological/instinctive/hormonal reaction to it.


The male lion has a rather drastic response to cuckolding.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Council man says "Its not the sort of thing we expect in a community like this".

You can say that, but swinger parties HAPPEN all over the place in QUIET neighbourhoods.
They happen in hotels, they run for 4~8 hours typically.

There is a LOT of wife swapping in the suburbs.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

MrsAldi said:


> Wait, swingers party beside a church & a pub called The C0ck Inn?
> Comedians in England are loving this I bet!
> 
> But sincerest sympathy to those lost & hurt.
> ...


Anywhere there is a large venue for rent in a nice setting, swingers will rent it for their events.

We actually had a local bruhaha recently between a local Masonic Lodge and a church located next to them. The Masons have a large events hall attached to their building that they rent for receptions and such. Every year, a swingers group rents the hall for their big event. They host an "off premises event", meaning no sex at the venue. Most who attend rent hotel rooms a block away at a chain motel. No biggie, right?

The church found out the Masons rent the venue to swingers every year and want them to stop because it's immoral. 

The Masons say that the swingers group pays their fee, leaves the place in good condition, and they aren't going to stop having them as a customer. 

The local police haven't had any problems with the party goers. No noise complaints, no people wandering pantsless, not even drunk drivers because the swingers club arranges designated drivers between the venue and the hotel.

The debate is ongoing and I hear some of the locals are trying to get a city ordinance change to make the swingers party illegal within city limits, but I doubt it will fly.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

citygirl4344 said:


> Jealousy makes you do crazy things.
> I think swingers especially have to be really careful with who they invite into their lifestyle. Who knows when feelings might develop and allow for something to happen. I'll be it this is an extreme story but end the end result of the marriage being broken up is a big possibility, IMO.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


The book I referenced in another thread does a great job handling jealousy. The thing that is different for swingers/poly people don't seek to avoid it but to work through it. It takes both the willingness to be totally honest and accepting your partner's honesty as a reflection of the intimacy of them showing you exactly who they really are.

I know a small number, like 1 that I can think of, that broke up. But they had such a large number of issues, they would have ended up divorced anyway. And man was she ever well rid of him.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> The book I referenced in another thread does a great job handling jealousy. The thing that is different for swingers/poly people don't seek to avoid it but to work through it. It takes both the willingness to be totally honest and accepting your partner's honesty as a reflection of the intimacy of them showing you exactly who they really are.
> 
> I know a small number, like 1 that I can think of, that broke up. But they had such a large number of issues, they would have ended up divorced anyway. And man was she ever well rid of him.


Every swinger couple I know, and it's more than a few, has divorced save my Aunt and Uncle. Most of those couples were swingers for years. Usually, until the youngest kid left the nest or they realized they can live without half their assets.

In this area, swinging seems to be relationship life support. It's how people who aren't getting what they want/need can stand to stay in their marriages.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MJJEAN said:


> Every swinger couple I know, and it's more than a few, has divorced save my Aunt and Uncle. Most of those couples were swingers for years. Usually, until the youngest kid left the nest or they realized they can live without half their assets.
> 
> In this area, swinging seems to be relationship life support. It's how people who aren't getting what they want/need can stand to stay in their marriages.


Yuck. Not a fan. That is certainly not what you would find described in the Taormino book I mentioned. There is nothing "responsible" about that. That is just sugar coating. You sure they were swinging and not "open"?


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## DrSher (Jul 17, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> The Middleman said:
> 
> 
> > Still not sure what happened in this story, but I'm really surprised that we don't hear about more murders or other violence associated with the discovery of infidelity. After all, that is the biological/instinctive/hormonal reaction to it.
> ...


 HAHAHA. the Brits really screwed themselves over like rat of Europe. They disarmed their entire population; emasculated every native man; banned everything from porn to prostitution; taxed the productive to death; still keeps telling their men how chauvinist they are and now they have to deal with the new men coming...

Entire Europe is rotting apart. All the emasculated castratis over there couldn't help themselves even if they HAD guns. The noise would create "anxiety".

And Sweden is now the "rape capital" of Europe. I hope it is comforting to know it is not the Emasculated Swedish male doung it. I LIVE women with the exception of the Europran ones- not so much..


Finally, I didn't know people in Europe were opposed to that? In any case, what would they do?

Pull the trigger? Oops, no gun.

Pick up a knife? Oops, too scared.

Throw a punch? Oooops, we haven't done so since first day of kinder garden.

These people are neither serious about their past nor future.


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## DrSher (Jul 17, 2016)

DrSher said:


> MattMatt said:
> 
> 
> > The Middleman said:
> ...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

With what you describe, the swinging hardly caused the break ups if they were just using at as an excuse to boink other people to delay the inevitable.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I never understood swinging. I want my wife to be strongly jealous and I would hope she wants me to be the same. My wife (body and all) is mine as I am hers. I often wonder if deep down inside one or both of the partners wonder if their spouse really loves them.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> Yuck. Not a fan. That is certainly not what you would find described in the Taormino book I mentioned. There is nothing "responsible" about that. That is just sugar coating. You sure they were swinging and not "open"?


Oh, yeah, I am sure. Complete with hosting parties, going to events, and telling everyone how awesome it is to be part of the lifestyle.

Everything about swinging seems sugar coated to me. Break it down and think about it. Swinging is basically an honest way for those who are discontent in their relationship for whatever reason, large or small, to have their needs met without lying and sneaking or having to give up their primary partner. 

Although, I must admit, I have seen plenty of lying and sneaking. At events I went to, it was common for couples to have play rules. No cumming in other women, no play when out of each others line of sight, no actual intercourse, things like that. Just as common as those rules was someone in a dark corner violating them and hoping not to be noticed.

Much more interesting than the swingers party is the gossip following it.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Update a knife was found by the woman who runs the village shop. Julie Ho-a-shoo reported the matter to the police.

Man killed and two people injured in Surrey pool party shooting - BBC News

Two arrests have been made.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MJJEAN said:


> Oh, yeah, I am sure. Complete with hosting parties, going to events, and telling everyone how awesome it is to be part of the lifestyle.
> 
> Everything about swinging seems sugar coated to me. Break it down and think about it. Swinging is basically an honest way for those who are discontent in their relationship for whatever reason, large or small, to have their needs met without lying and sneaking or having to give up their primary partner.


That certainly was not the way it was for DH and I nor any of the friends we have met nor the many, many people we have discussed this with on appropriate boards. We never gave each other up. 


> Although, I must admit, I have seen plenty of lying and sneaking.


That is sort of the opposite of the point of swinging. To be fair, there are definitely people who use whatever to do whatever. Swinging communities have their jerks too. The most common is a husband who pressures the wife into it. We chose not to hang out with people like that. I feel bad for anyone who is pressured. One guy told me on IM "well it is better than cheating"! I was like, no it isn't you twat. PLONK.





> At events I went to, it was common for couples to have play rules.


You are/were a swinger? Was it sugar coating for you? 



> No cumming in other women, no play when out of each others line of sight, no actual intercourse, things like that. Just as common as those rules was someone in a dark corner violating them and hoping not to be noticed.
> 
> Much more interesting than the swingers party is the gossip following it.


Never really did understand the arbitrary rules around specific actions. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. 

We were never big into events. Not much into just banging any random people. The only parties we ever went to, and this was very infrequent, was by invitation by friends only. We certainly never gossiped about each other afterward!


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> You are/were a swinger? Was it sugar coating for you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was more or less in an open marriage, but not swinging. ExH and I were both screwing around, we both knew it, and sometimes we'd show up at a mutual friends house with a date and then proceed to ignore each other all night if one of us didn't just make excuses to the host and leave. 

The infidelity was what made the marriage bearable for me. Going out with other men made dealing with exH slightly less bothersome. I was open about it, honest about it, and didn't sugar coat a dang thing.

A lot of people I met at a few local alternative venues/clubs are swingers and a surprising number of people I grew up with ended up dipping a toe in for a while. Between new friends and old friends, I got a lot of party invites. I'd help set up parties, hang out for a bit, and then leave before people started getting naked. 

Since I was in something of a sham "open marriage" (we never had an agreement because that would have taken away drama and exH fed on drama) and didn't participate in the swinger parties, everyone tought I would be a perfect non-judgmental and neutral confessor and sounding board. The level of two-faced bullsh*t was just astounding. You couldn't get any 2 of those groups together without them talking mad sh*t about others in their regular group or from larger gatherings, but they were all best of friends to each others faces.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> Oh, yeah, I am sure. Complete with hosting parties, going to events, and telling everyone how awesome it is to be part of the lifestyle.
> 
> Everything about swinging seems sugar coated to me. Break it down and think about it. Swinging is basically an honest way for those who are discontent in their relationship for whatever reason, large or small, to have their needs met without lying and sneaking or having to give up their primary partner.
> 
> ...


The fact that they call it "play" is gross. Why don't they call it what it is, f*cking.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

sokillme said:


> The fact that they call it "play" is gross. Why don't they call it what it is, f*cking.


The reason most call it "play" is because it's recreational sexual contact, but not necessarily f*cking. The level of participation at parties, public or private, is individual.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

I honestly don't judge swingers. Not really my thing but at least they are honest with each other. I really don't view a person's ability to stay monogamous as a reflection of their morality. I see it as their sexual type. Some are better suited for monogamy than others. Swingers at least let their partners know upfront.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

TAMAT said:


> Perhaps the police report is so sedate because there was a house of lords member in an ostrich suit.
> 
> So sorry for our British reader that you can't own guns in the UK.
> 
> ...


Don't be sorry. Don't want them.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

DrSher said:


> HAHAHA. the Brits really screwed themselves over like rat of Europe. They disarmed their entire population; emasculated every native man; banned everything from porn to prostitution; taxed the productive to death; still keeps telling their men how chauvinist they are and now they have to deal with the new men coming...
> 
> Entire Europe is rotting apart. All the emasculated castratis over there couldn't help themselves even if they HAD guns. The noise would create "anxiety".
> 
> ...


This is quite hilarious. Thank you.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> Anywhere there is a large venue for rent in a nice setting, swingers will rent it for their events.
> 
> We actually had a local bruhaha recently between a local Masonic Lodge and a church located next to them. The Masons have a large events hall attached to their building that they rent for receptions and such. Every year, a swingers group rents the hall for their big event. They host an "off premises event", meaning no sex at the venue. Most who attend rent hotel rooms a block away at a chain motel. No biggie, right?
> 
> ...


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

TaDor said:


> Council man says "Its not the sort of thing we expect in a community like this".
> 
> You can say that, but swinger parties HAPPEN all over the place in QUIET neighbourhoods.
> They happen in hotels, they run for 4~8 hours typically.
> ...


That's husbands swapping wives, right? I'm for gender equality and want to promote wives swapping husbands. Could be educational... :surprise:


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MJJEAN said:


> I was more or less in an open marriage, but not swinging. ExH and I were both screwing around, we both knew it, and sometimes we'd show up at a mutual friends house with a date and then proceed to ignore each other all night if one of us didn't just make excuses to the host and leave.
> 
> The infidelity was what made the marriage bearable for me. Going out with other men made dealing with exH slightly less bothersome. I was open about it, honest about it, and didn't sugar coat a dang thing.
> 
> ...


Like finds like, I guess. Not trying to be mean, but that is what you were doing then. No wonder that is what you attracted.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> Like finds like, I guess. Not trying to be mean, but that is what you were doing then. No wonder that is what you attracted.


You were actually having sexual contact with your swinger circle, yes? So, of course, you'd be very selective about who you consider part of your circle.

I wasn't participating beyond social chit-chat before people started pairing or grouping up. I wasn't as picky about who I hung out with because I didn't have any skin in the game. Not to mention, I was young and almost puppy-like in my friendliness. I could find things to like about everyone so long as they didn't wrong me. 

As we all grew older, I kept people around I probably should have stopped talking to years ago. I did at least get to see how their stories played out. I guess that's something. 

Then, about 2 years ago, I actually did just stop talking to pretty much everybody. I still keep in touch with a few people from those groups, but they're the really honest and big-hearted ones who aren't into drama.

DH's swinging experience was fairly straightforward. His then GF was bi-curious and he wasn't sexually attracted to her anymore, but very emotionally attached. So, they started swinging. He started to want a different kind of relationship and she was starting to get a little too heavily into partying, so they split up. 

A few months later, he met me. She ended up going to a party, getting treated like a piece of meat by two guys she grouped with, had a "WTF am I doing?!?!" moment, moved out of state, got married, got divorced, stopped talking to everyone, and got remarried to a foreign guy who has absolutely no idea what she used to be into.


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

You have some interesting stories, @MJJEAN. =)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when swingers get divorced, they just use "irreconcilable differences" as the reason, so there's really no way to pinpoint the exact number of marriages that ended due to swinging, as it's all lumped in with the monogamous relationships.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> She ended up going to a party, getting treated like a piece of meat by two guys she grouped with, had a "WTF am I doing?!?!" moment, moved out of state, got married, got divorced, stopped talking to everyone, and got remarried to a foreign guy who has absolutely no idea what she used to be into.


Ahh nothing like and open honest foundation to build a great marriage. :surprise:


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Ahh nothing like and open honest foundation to build a great marriage. :surprise:


But with the sacrament of marriage, it's all made fine! 
_
Yeah, you made me feel
Shiny and new

Like a virgin
Touched for the very first time
Like a virgin
When your heart beats
Next to mine_
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHW5RVvg2v4


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

DrSher said:


> HAHAHA. the Brits really screwed themselves over like rat of Europe. They disarmed their entire population; emasculated every native man; banned everything from porn to prostitution; taxed the productive to death; still keeps telling their men how chauvinist they are and now they have to deal with the new men coming...
> 
> Entire Europe is rotting apart. All the emasculated castratis over there couldn't help themselves even if they HAD guns. The noise would create "anxiety".
> 
> ...


Sounds like somebody's British boyfriend dumped him for a Swede who was better looking and more fit!


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

Swinging is bizarre to me. I don't give a **** if swingers want to swing but I just don't get it. What self-respecting person wants to watch their spouse boning or getting boned by other people? It's just nasty. I've seen the documentaries on HBO about swingers. They always give off such a creepy vibe.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MJJEAN said:


> DH's swinging experience was fairly straightforward. His then GF was bi-curious and *he wasn't sexually attracted to her anymore*, but very emotionally attached. So, they started swinging. He started to want a different kind of relationship and she was starting to get a little too heavily into partying, so they split up.


You won't get a single bit of advice on any book or forum that would advise using swinging to solve this kind of issue. You CERTAINLY would not get that advice from me. Attraction is not static. If you are swinging (vs more complicated poly without a primary) then your partner is your primary. You can that relationship 150% strong BEFORE you reach out to anyone else. 



> A few months later, he met me. She ended up going to a party, getting treated like a piece of meat by two guys she grouped with, had a "WTF am I doing?!?!" moment, moved out of state, got married, got divorced, stopped talking to everyone, and got remarried to a foreign guy who has absolutely no idea what she used to be into.


Maybe the difference is that we started much older than you, it sounds like. We did our due diligence. We read about what to expect, pitfalls that other people had experienced... We met other people who THOUGHT like us. We set up expectations that involved full stop if the primary partners had some kind of difficulty. We went for FWB vs ONS or party scene...

I suppose anything that can be beneficial (like marriage even!) can also be very destructive (like marriage even!).


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

There have been reports of a rise in STDs in older people caused by unsafe sex practices including by swingers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> But with the sacrament of marriage, it's all made fine!


Not everyone views marriage as sacramental. Many of us view it as an interpersonal commitment with no religious element whatsoever. One documentary we saw on Christian swingers did strike me as a bit whacky. But many Christians of many denominations pick and choose which bots of their doctrine they actually follow. So my PoV was like <shrug>, whatever.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> There have been reports of a rise in STDs in older people caused by unsafe sex practices including by swingers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is hardly a surprise that unsafe sex practices yields an increased risk of STD. I had read that the incidence of unsafe sex practices was actually lower than that of cheating spouses. I cannot imagine how someone would study/measure that though.


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## straightshooter (Dec 27, 2015)

Interesting discussion. No reason to be judgmental regarding non monogamous lifestyles, but unfortunately many people enter into these lifestyles under the illusion it will save or spice up their marriages. And in the SHORT term, in many cases it probably can and does.

But the same problems that occur in monogamous marriages rear their ugly heads.
Broken boundaries
Unchecked emotional commitment
Lying, i.e cheating

What is supposed to start out in most cases as just pure sexual variety and fun evolves like any office relationship into one partner wanting more than just a fun romp in the bed. And of course that was not planned for and then the other partner wants to back off, is rejected in doing so, and welcome to divorce 101. Sound familiar because it is the same in a lot of cases as non compromise and selfishness as in monogamous marriages.

There are probably a lot of folks who "dabble" in it, but if anyone thinks the percentage of happy endings and long term happiness is greater, i think you are dreaming.

We have known a number of couples who have gone the various routes in non monogamy ( swinging, polyamory) and do not know one that was together five years down the road. might that have happened anyway, sure possible. 

no one will ever know.

Now in a forum this size, you can say the sky is blue and there will be someone that will strongly disagree. So to you LONG TERM swingers out there, CONGRATULATIONS on a job well done.

YOU ARE NOT IN THE MAJORITY and if you think you are i have a bridge to sell you.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

The stats and my own observations are at variance with yours, straightshooter. I know many couples who have been swingers for 2 or even 3 decades, and are happily still together - and have met and know of hundreds more who are still together, happy, and active in the swinger community 8 years or more later. There are many who dabble, find that it doesn't work for them, and return to monogamy without any problem. I also know of some who have broken up, mostly because they had problems even before they tried swinging. I have met - and avoided - people who are in it for the wrong reasons, or have seriously warped expectations. Basically, what you've got here is a representative cross-section of everyone in the wider community, who also happen to be interested in the variety provided by casual sex. The one difference I see versus the population in general, is that a large majority of couples include a bisexual woman, so a great deal of the motivation is for them to satisfy that side of their sexuality. In that sense, most swinging is promoted by and mostly for the benefit of women.

As for the stats and studies - some studies find swingers have happier marriages overall.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/files/attachments/134956/the-swinging-paradigm.pdf

There are lots of articles on the psychologytoday site about swinging, open relationships, polyamory, etc., for anyone interested.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

straightshooter said:


> What is supposed to start out in most cases as just pure sexual variety and fun evolves like any office relationship into one partner wanting more than just a fun romp in the bed. And of course that was not planned for and then the other partner wants to back off,


Failure to have boundaries, planning for these things is, indeed, a very bad idea.


> We have known a number of couples who have gone the various routes in non monogamy ( swinging, polyamory) and do not know one that was together five years down the road. might that have happened anyway, sure possible.


8 years or so for us. Single data point.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> Swinging is bizarre to me. I don't give a **** if swingers want to swing but I just don't get it. What self-respecting person wants to watch their spouse boning or getting boned by other people?


People who don't view sexual or romantic exclusivity as important to the core of their relationship.



> It's just nasty. I've seen the documentaries on HBO about swingers. They always give off such a creepy vibe.


I can nearly guarantee you that there are non-nasty people walking around you that you have no idea are swingers. None of my family or friends would categorize me as nasty.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> The stats and my own observations are at variance with yours, straightshooter. I know many couples who have been swingers for 2 or even 3 decades, and are happily still together - and have met and know of hundreds more who are still together, happy, and active in the swinger community 8 years or more later. There are many who dabble, find that it doesn't work for them, and return to monogamy without any problem. I also know of some who have broken up, mostly because they had problems even before they tried swinging. I have met - and avoided - people who are in it for the wrong reasons, or have seriously warped expectations. Basically, what you've got here is a representative cross-section of everyone in the wider community, who also happen to be interested in the variety provided by casual sex. The one difference I see versus the population in general, is that a large majority of couples include a bisexual woman, so a great deal of the motivation is for them to satisfy that side of their sexuality. In that sense, most swinging is promoted by and mostly for the benefit of women.
> 
> As for the stats and studies - some studies find swingers have happier marriages overall.
> 
> ...


This expresses exactly my experience as well.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> The stats and my own observations are at variance with yours, straightshooter. I know many couples who have been swingers for 2 or even 3 decades, and are happily still together - and have met and know of hundreds more who are still together, happy, and active in the swinger community 8 years or more later.


To each his own. Personally, if I've got to swing to subsidize a lack of excitement and thrill in my own marriage and my life, I'm probably married to the wrong woman or have expectation that will ultimately knock my dyck in the dirt. 
As far as claims of happier marriages, many smokers, druggies, people hooked on all types of porn, et cetra , claim to have happier, more fulfilling lives.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

becareful2 said:


> You have some interesting stories, @MJJEAN. =)
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but when swingers get divorced, they just use "irreconcilable differences" as the reason, so there's really no way to pinpoint the exact number of marriages that ended due to swinging, as it's all lumped in with the monogamous relationships.


Pretty much. No fault divorce is no fault.



sokillme said:


> Ahh nothing like and open honest foundation to build a great marriage. :surprise:


I know, right? The man she married comes from a very conservative culture. So, she just decided her previous life never happened and that was that.



NobodySpecial said:


> You won't get a single bit of advice on any book or forum that would advise using swinging to solve this kind of issue. You CERTAINLY would not get that advice from me. Attraction is not static. If you are swinging (vs more complicated poly without a primary) then your partner is your primary. You can that relationship 150% strong BEFORE you reach out to anyone else.
> 
> Maybe the difference is that we started much older than you, it sounds like. We did our due diligence. We read about what to expect, pitfalls that other people had experienced... We met other people who THOUGHT like us. We set up expectations that involved full stop if the primary partners had some kind of difficulty. We went for FWB vs ONS or party scene...


My groups of swinger friends ranged from early 20's to mid 40's. 

For the younger of the group, I think a lot of their choices stemmed from marrying too young and having children shortly before or after. By the time they grew up and realized who they were, they were already bound to someone they cared deeply for, but who wasn't actually a good match. Swinging was seen as a fix. Get what you need elsewhere with your primary relationship intact. Didn't work out for pretty much anyone.



Married but Happy said:


> The stats and my own observations are at variance with yours, straightshooter. I know many couples who have been swingers for 2 or even 3 decades, and are happily still together


NobodySpecial mentioned age. You mention couples who are clearly older as they have been swinging for decades. I'm wondering if I have seen the beginning, the weeding out process, and you two are seeing the end product. Maybe by the time people inclined to swing make it to your age group, those ill suited have already crashed and burned, so you don't see them.


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> The man she married comes from a very conservative culture. So, she just decided her previous life never happened and that was that.


Was the guy Asian or Middle Eastern?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

MJJEAN said:


> NobodySpecial mentioned age. You mention couples who are clearly older as they have been swinging for decades. I'm wondering if I have seen the beginning, the weeding out process, and you two are seeing the end product. Maybe by the time people inclined to swing make it to your age group, those ill suited have already crashed and burned, so you don't see them.


That's not it, I'm sure - in our experience. The scene here may well be different than the one where you were. We hung out with a large local social group, and particularly the two couples who had organized it and ran it for over a decade. A large majority of nearby new couples would be invited to and come to their events, as it was a good way to meet others in a no-pressure social environment. Ages ranged from 20s to 60s, and various experience levels. Some inexperienced were dissuaded from continuing, as they weren't there for the right reasons. The group did a lot to educate new people so they wouldn't have bad experiences. A lot continued, and are still involved. Some found what they wanted and left eventually. Some moved away. Only a few (that I heard of, and being connected to the organizers meant we usually did hear) out of hundreds created or experienced any problems for others or themselves.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

VladDracul said:


> To each his own. Personally, if I've got to swing to subsidize a lack of excitement and thrill in my own marriage and my life, I'm probably married to the wrong woman


That is a common misconception. Successful swingers are not trying to subsidize a LACK of excitement. But fuel their crazy excitement with each other.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MJJEAN said:


> NobodySpecial mentioned age. You mention couples who are clearly older as they have been swinging for decades. I'm wondering if I have seen the beginning, the weeding out process, and you two are seeing the end product. Maybe by the time people inclined to swing make it to your age group, those ill suited have already crashed and burned, so you don't see them.


I think the thing about being a little older is STARTING a little older with an already strong bond. We did experiment when we were younger, and discovered that we just weren't in a place that that made sense. When we were older, not a TON older, but more established with the working of love and desire in the context of kids, work and life, it worked much better. We were more strongly bonded to each other, more committed. So the trust was there.


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## happy2gether (Dec 6, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> That is a common misconception. Successful swingers are not trying to subsidize a LACK of excitement. But fuel their crazy excitement with each other.


this is certainly true. We had a MFM yesterday with my wife's 26 year old boy toy. Not because just me and her don't have fun, but we do it to add even more excitement. We were just talking about it a few minutes ago, how the various experiences actually bring us closer. 

I'll admit we had a rocky time last year. BUT I have to point out that we had actually stopped swinging for several years and were going thru problems totally unrelated to it. We had stopped communicating with each other and settled into the not uncommon rut of long term relationships. She had someone make her think she could do better single, honestly the way we were I probably would have done the same thing if the roles had reversed. But we got thru it and during our conversations we discovered we both wanted to get back to swinging. Not for our personal pleasure(though it is nice) but for the amazing way it enhances our relationship. it is NOT for everyone, and it never works if one party is being coerced into it, but it works great for us.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> That is a common misconception. Successful swingers are not trying to subsidize a LACK of excitement. But fuel their crazy excitement with each other.


Like I said Dawg, to each his own. I don't need to fuel my excitement for my wife. She gets my juices flowing in her own right and if were any better, I couldn't stand it; and she and I are probably a hell of a lot older than you.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

happy2gether said:


> We had a MFM yesterday with my wife's 26 year old boy toy. Not because just me and her don't have fun, but we do it to add even more excitement. We were just talking about it a few minutes ago, how the various experiences actually bring us closer.


Your comments mean little without pictures to back them up.>


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

VladDracul said:


> Like I said Dawg, to each his own. I don't *need *to fuel my excitement for my wife. She gets my juices flowing in her own right and if were any better, I couldn't stand it; and she and I are probably a hell of a lot older than you.


We didn't "need" it either. But we liked it! Sorry you couldn't keep up!  JK.


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## happy2gether (Dec 6, 2015)

VladDracul said:


> Your comments mean little without pictures to back them up.>


that would get me banned. 0


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> We didn't "need" it either.


Wasn't talking about you. I'z talking about me. Whether you or I "need" anything or not is best determined by what happens if its taken away. Just from my, and only my perspective, it sounds like ya'll enjoy it too much to give it up without an adverse effect on your relationship. A question to consider if its a need or not is, "could you maintain the same level of happy relationship if it were long term monogamous?".


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

happy2gether said:


> that would get me banned. 0


Ya, damnit.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

VladDracul said:


> Wasn't talking about you. I'z talking about me. Whether you or I "need" anything or not is best determined by what happens if its taken away. Just from my, and only my perspective, it sounds like ya'll enjoy it too much to give it up without an adverse effect on your relationship.


We have "given it up". For reasons having nothing to do with swinging itself.



> A question to consider if its a need or not is, "could you maintain the same level of happy relationship if it were long term monogamous?".


Given that we are, I feel confident in saying yes. That was never in question.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

VladDracul said:


> Wasn't talking about you. I'z talking about me. Whether you or I "need" anything or not is best determined by what happens if its taken away. Just from my, and only my perspective, it sounds like ya'll enjoy it too much to give it up without an adverse effect on your relationship. A question to consider if its a need or not is, "*could you maintain the same level of happy relationship if it were long term monogamous?*".


We could, and for some long periods of time we have. It has definitely provided additional excitement occasionally (and expanded our skill set), but it's purely for fun and not a need. It has made us appreciate each other all the more, too. At the moment, we're inclining back towards monogamy.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

I'm not a swinger and have zero interest in it. My friends who were swingers and/open are all divorced now. Well, I should say, all but one couple. Rumors are that they are separating but I'm not real close with them so I'm not sure. 

The local swinger club got shut down because they were bringing their children and apparently including them in the "play time" activities. 

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/crim...otorious-mineola-texas-swingers-club-case.ece

I'm certainly not equating swingers with pedophiles. I'm only showing that apparently there is a LOT of variation in these groups and their rules.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

becareful2 said:


> Was the guy Asian or Middle Eastern?


From India. 



Married but Happy said:


> That's not it, I'm sure - in our experience. The scene here may well be different than the one where you were.


I think there are some people who are well suited to swinging, some who give lip service to the ideals espoused by swingers so they can join a group or groups and have their fun, and others who are just completely delusional and think everything is huny-dory until some random event that makes them say "HOLY SH*T! WTH and I doing with my life?".

This area seems to have more than it's share of lip servicers and the delusional.



NobodySpecial said:


> That is a common misconception. Successful swingers are not trying to subsidize a LACK of excitement. But fuel their crazy excitement with each other.


Mechanically, I think swinging is basically playing around with hysterical bonding and that accounts for the increased excitement and feelings of closeness. How people talk about their relationship afterwards is very similar to how BS's and WS's talk about their relationship after infidelity is discovered and they are either reconciling or on the fence. Can't keep their hands off each other, sex out of this world again, being emotional with their partner, etc.




TX-SC said:


> I'm only showing that apparently there is a LOT of variation in these groups and their rules.


There certainly seems to be much variation.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

TX-SC said:


> I'm not a swinger and have zero interest in it. My friends who were swingers and/open are all divorced now. Well, I should say, all but one couple. Rumors are that they are separating but I'm not real close with them so I'm not sure.
> 
> The local swinger club got shut down because they were bringing their children and apparently including them in the "play time" activities.
> 
> ...



I've known two couples that were swingers. Both are divorced. One admits it was the swinging, the other I don't know well enough to get into the details.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

straightshooter said:


> Interesting discussion. No reason to be judgmental regarding non monogamous lifestyles, but unfortunately many people enter into these lifestyles under the illusion it will save or spice up their marriages. And in the SHORT term, in many cases it probably can and does.


I'll be judgmental.

"swinging" is adultery.

"swingers" are just as wayward and fogged out as any cheater I've ever met.

Just a different variation on the rationalizations and justifications.

They destroy themselves and others.

We shall continue to see this lifestyle promoted more and more {especially online}, just as other deviant lifestyles are and have been promoted more and more as normal, because sinners are extremely motivated to soothe their inner judgmental voice and try to make sense of the consequences that seem to constantly arise with this behavior. A plus if they exaggerate the numbers and try to make it sound {and feel} like everybody is doing it. 

Go and sin no more. You'll end up much happier. God's really not telling you how to live your life to restrict your fun. He knows "swinging" is bad for you physically, mentally and relationally. Such behavior is forbidden because it'll hurt you....eventually. Sin always has consequences.

An upside to swinging becoming more normalized would hopefully include these people telling you upfront who they are and what they do ~~ maybe bumper stickers, lapel pins, hats or an ascot signifying they are "DTS" {down to swing} or "MASA" {make America Swing Again}. Then the true great majority of decent folks will know who to "judge", avoid and de-friend. I'm not going to stand by and simply "tolerate" friends hurting themselves when I know what it means for them and I know a better way.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Years back my ex and I were friends with some neighbors who confided that they were swingers. They bragged about how happy they were and how much swinging had helped add spice to their marriage. Then after a time the quit coming around. A few months later I run into the husband out on the street. He is looking like sh!t and told me that his wife left him for one of the men that they used to swing with. That guy also left his wife, and so this guy and another woman were now left alone with no spouses. I honestly didn't know what to say to him. I felt like telling him he deserved it for engaging in something that stupid

I often wonder if my exWW played with them, and we had a fantastic foursome...except I wasn't there and didn't know about it. It wouldn't surprise me.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

NobodySpecial said:


> People who don't view sexual or romantic exclusivity as important to the core of their relationship.


 What IS important to the core of their relationship? Is there a shared view that swingers hold....what role does "emotional exclusivity" play....not crossing that line when sharing our bodies...this has to be like playing with Fire...

But still...swingers end up falling in love, or newly found Lust with other swingers ... like @bandit.45 's example above ...


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> That is a common misconception. Successful swingers are not trying to subsidize a LACK of excitement. But fuel their crazy excitement with each other.


I can see how that would be true. For this to work, you'd have to have a crazy good sex life already.

Plus, it seems the guy would have to feel good about his size,and the woman would have to feel good about how her boobs and butt looked. If you were at all insecure, seeing your SO having sex with others that were physically more appealing would open the Pandora's Box of insecurity.

I think that's a big part of people's problem with the idea; (other than religious-type beliefs).


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> What IS important to the core of their relationship?


I can only speak for us. Trust, honesty, intimacy, connection, forgiveness, love.



> Is there a shared view that swingers hold....what role does "emotional exclusivity" play....not crossing that line when sharing our bodies...this has to be like playing with Fire...


For us there was no expectation of emotional exclusivity, just that sharing a bond to some degree with someone else does not lessen our bond with each other. For us it wound up being interesting the things that made us appreciate the few other people who touched our hearts and spirits. We wound up learning a lot about each other.



> But still...swingers end up falling in love, or newly found Lust with other swingers ... like @bandit.45 's example above ...


I did not see bandit's example. Not sure what is wrong with newly found lust. But we did wind up falling in love. I don't think it is all that uncommon for swinging to lead to polyamory. At least I have seen it mentioned by people a few times on other boards. For us the problem was no polyamory so much as the guy turned out to be not this great dude we thought he was but a narcissistic jerk. Here DH and I are. Still happily married. Still in love.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I can see how that would be true. For this to work, you'd have to have a crazy good sex life already.
> 
> Plus, it seems the guy would have to feel good about his size,and the woman would have to feel good about how her boobs and butt looked. If you were at all insecure, seeing your SO having sex with others that were physically more appealing would open the Pandora's Box of insecurity.
> 
> I think that's a big part of people's problem with the idea; (other than religious-type beliefs).


You certainly have to be confident, but it is not always about body parts. It is about being confident in who you are and what you are doing. I find that among swingers, they seem to accept that the most important sex organ is the brain. One of my best buddies was tiny. But he was so fun and funny and wonderful. A penis is just a tool. Learn to use the tool you have.


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## happy2gether (Dec 6, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> You certainly have to be confident, but it is not always about body parts. It is about being confident in who you are and what you are doing. I find that among swingers, they seem to accept that the most important sex organ is the brain. One of my best buddies was tiny. But he was so fun and funny and wonderful. A penis is just a tool. Learn to use the tool you have.


I'm not huge, just average. At parties you will see all sizes, and honestly like you said it is about how you act not necessarily what you have. I've seen 300# bald men with short equipment get more action than buffed out 30 year olds. You have to be confident, but not narcissistic.

We love the fun of it, it is truly an adrenaline rush. Sure there are people that end up in a relationship and leave their original partner, but honestly from my experience this is LESS likely to happen than with traditional partnerships where jealousy and trust issues are more common.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

happy2gether said:


> I'm not huge, just average. At parties you will see all sizes, and honestly like you said it is about how you act not necessarily what you have. I've seen 300# bald men with short equipment get more action than buffed out 30 year olds. You have to be confident, but not narcissistic.


In my opinion narcissism is the last defense of the severely lacking in confidence. 


> We love the fun of it, it is truly an adrenaline rush. Sure there are people that end up in a relationship and leave their original partner, but honestly from my experience this is LESS likely to happen than with traditional partnerships where jealousy and trust issues are more common.


Yah it always strikes me funny that any lifestyle that is different than the norm is held to a higher standard. Vanilla marriages end for all kinds of reasons. Yet a swinger marriage ending is a condemnation of the highest order. Hetero marriages end all the time. But a gay marriage ending is a condemnation of the highest order. I don't get it.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

Quality said:


> I'll be judgmental.
> 
> "swinging" is adultery.
> 
> ...



I misjudged you by some of your previous posts. This is awesome. Great post. I don't buy into the "don't judge" crowd. In fact, they're judging you when they sell you that hooey. If somebody steals, I judge. If somebody kills, I judge. If somebody lies, betrays, and commits adultery. I judge them as being wrong. Don't like it? Tough sh*t. Judge me if you want. I couldn't care less.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Quality said:


> I'll be judgmental.


Good for you, no sarcasm intended since I am often judgemental as well.



Quality said:


> "swinging" is adultery.


As per a dictionary definition, I concur "swinging" is adultery.



Quality said:


> "swingers" are just as wayward and fogged out as any cheater I've ever met.


Are you confused?

Considering swingers, swing with informed consent the use of the term wayward as a descriptor is a misnomer.

As to any association with cheating, swingers can cheat as can non-swingers. Having said that any and all dalliances that occur with informed consent like "swinging" are by virtue of that consent not cheating at all.

In other words not fogy at all.



Quality said:


> Just a different variation on the rationalizations and justifications.


What like when people convince themselves an unevidenced deity is real and has a special relationship with them?



Quality said:


> They destroy themselves and others.


As do many more people in monogamous relationships.



Quality said:


> We shall continue to see this lifestyle promoted more and more {especially online}, just as other deviant lifestyles are and have been promoted more and more as normal, because sinners are extremely motivated to soothe their inner judgmental voice and try to make sense of the consequences that seem to constantly arise with this behavior. A plus if they exaggerate the numbers and try to make it sound {and feel} like everybody is doing it.


:rofl:

Hmmm, you do know that sin isn't actually a real thing and that it is actually make believe gobbledygook right?



Quality said:


> Go and sin no more. You'll end up much happier.


Since sin isn't a real thing, no one on this planet is actually sinning, one's happiness doesn't actually rest upon believing such nonsense.



Quality said:


> God's really not telling you how to live your life to restrict your fun. He knows "swinging" is bad for you physically, mentally and relationally.


Your make believe deity isn't telling anyone anything.



Quality said:


> Such behavior is forbidden because it'll hurt you....eventually.


:rofl::rofl:

Forbidden, who by you?



Quality said:


> Sin always has consequences.


:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Real life and real things have consequences, unlike the make believe sin that you're peddling.



Quality said:


> An upside to swinging becoming more normalized would hopefully include these people telling you upfront who they are and what they do ~~ maybe bumper stickers, lapel pins, hats or an ascot signifying they are "DTS" {down to swing} or "MASA" {make America Swing Again}. Then the true great majority of decent folks will know who to "judge", avoid and de-friend.


Since swinging is a consensual pursuit, telling one's sexual partner/s is the norm.



Quality said:


> I'm not going to stand by and simply "tolerate" friends hurting themselves when I know what it means for them and I know a better way.


Absent actually physically forcing people to stop swinging in order to conform to you make believe deity's manmade rules, tolerance is all you have.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Personal said:


> What like when people convince themselves an unevidenced deity is real and has a special relationship with them?


Jesus is and was a real historical figure and I do have a special relationship with Him.




> Since swinging is a consensual pursuit, telling one's sexual partner/s is the norm.


Why is their a "norm"? Who makes up the "norms", you? I've seen others on this thread talk about rules to swinging but why would anyone willing to go outside of societal norms regarding marriage (so I'm not even talking sin here) be trusted to follow anyone elses rules or "norms"? Sure you can get together with your spouse and hammer out some ground rules and treaty's but upon what basis do you have any to complain when they end up doing whatever they want and simply indicate that is they want to change the rules and implement a new "norm"? 




> Absent actually physically forcing people to stop swinging in order to conform to you make believe deity's manmade rules, tolerance is all you have.


I was talking more about my boundaries and after telling a friend I found out was swinging what I thought about the behavior; he or she will either stop it or never be in my company ever again. I'll probably also tell/warn their family, friends and employers too. That might not be the norm to expose people, but I think it's fun. 

And really, who says I have to tolerate anything, you? Our government's (ignorable) man made rules? How come you "get to" break norms but I'm expected to obey the law and not "physically force people to stop swinging"?


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

@Personal I don't think this has to do with a deity necessarily.

Rather it has to do with trust, emotional commitment, and vulnerability.

Obviously these three things have different meanings in monogamous versus nonmonogamous relationships.

What you hear as negative judgment is more likely hurt and betrayal. In monogonously inclined people there is no desire to "push through" the pain of losing emotional commitment. 

Interestingly, there could be a common n point of reference; the gift of emotional commitment is enabled through a willingness to be vulnerable; maybe the gift of emotional freedom is enabled the same way.

I just think monogamous people don't want to enable emotional freedom. That's all. They treasure emotional commitment as a sign of loyalty (though that's hardly the primary reason).

Can you tell us how loyalty is exhibited, fostered, cherished and nurtured in a nonmonogonous relationship? As a pretty existential guy, I am what I do and I see non monogamy as doing many things that tell me "we're not in love with each other" (assuming my definition of love as exhibiting the behaviors mentioned above). 

So what is love and what is loyalty to you?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

TheTruthHurts said:


> @Personal I don't think this has to do with a deity necessarily.


Nor do I.



TheTruthHurts said:


> Rather it has to do with trust, emotional commitment, and vulnerability.


On the other hand informed consent can have a lot to do with trust, emotional commitment and vulnerability.



TheTruthHurts said:


> Obviously these three things have different meanings in monogamous versus nonmonogamous relationships.


I expect those three things have plenty to do with both monogamous and non-monogamous relationships.



TheTruthHurts said:


> What you hear as negative judgment is more likely hurt and betrayal. In monogonously inclined people there is no desire to "push through" the pain of losing emotional commitment.


All I was responding to was the promulgation of religious nonsense and the erroneous belief that informed consensual swinging is cheating (absent the application of deceit, cheating cannot occur).



TheTruthHurts said:


> Interestingly, there could be a common n point of reference; the gift of emotional commitment is enabled through a willingness to be vulnerable; maybe the gift of emotional freedom is enabled the same way.


Non-monogamy has no monopoly on emotional freedom just as monogamy has no monopoly on vulnerability.



TheTruthHurts said:


> I just think monogamous people don't want to enable emotional freedom. That's all. They treasure emotional commitment as a sign of loyalty (though that's hardly the primary reason).


What monogamous people think is a moving feast, and depends very much upon the perspective of the individual, monogamous people certainly don't all share the same opinions.



TheTruthHurts said:


> Can you tell us how loyalty is exhibited, fostered, cherished and nurtured in a nonmonogonous relationship? As a pretty existential guy, I am what I do and I see non monogamy as doing many things that tell me "we're not in love with each other" (assuming my definition of love as exhibiting the behaviors mentioned above).


Nope I can't.

To date I've only ever been a serial monogamist, with my longest run so far lasting 20+ years with my wife of 17+ years.

That said if one can be loyal and love various friends, family and previous sexual partners. I can't see how non-monogamous relationships can't also feature love and loyalty.

It's not that hard to love more than one person.



TheTruthHurts said:


> So what is love and what is loyalty to you?


I have no idea what love is as a definable thing, is it chemicals?

I love my wife and others, yet I can't really tell you or anyone else what that means through pictures or words.

Loyalty is a commitment to others.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> In my opinion narcissism is the last defense of the severely lacking in confidence.
> 
> 
> Yah it always strikes me funny that any lifestyle that is different than the norm is held to a higher standard. Vanilla marriages end for all kinds of reasons. Yet a swinger marriage ending is a condemnation of the highest order. Hetero marriages end all the time. But a gay marriage ending is a condemnation of the highest order. I don't get it.


I consider a marriage first and foremost to be a vow to each other. That vow doesn't involve the guests, the preacher, the government or the public at large. As long as you're living up to the vow you make to your spouse, you're golden.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> I consider a marriage first and foremost to be a vow to each other. That vow doesn't involve the guests, the preacher, the government or the public at large. As long as you're living up to the vow you make to your spouse, you're golden.


I agree with the notion that it is between the two people and not the other parties. But the vow we took when we were in our twenties seems to not allow us to grow together. We promised things we did not understand. Twenty something years later I would rather be committed to HIM than to a promise that I made when I was nothing better than a child.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Quality said:


> I'll be judgmental.
> 
> "swinging" is adultery.
> 
> ...


They used to call gay people deviant. Do you know what deviant means? Departing from accepted standards. People who think necessarily depart from accepted standards because standards are developed to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

Off I go today to visit some of my best friends who I met through swinging. We are going to enjoy some food, some boating, playing with our kids and dogs. I am going with my husband and best friend. I know. Ruination!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

TheTruthHurts said:


> @Personal I don't think this has to do with a deity necessarily.
> 
> Rather it has to do with trust, emotional commitment, and vulnerability.
> 
> ...


I have never once received a reply that indicated any thinking on this topic, though I have posted it often enough. For non-monogamous people emotional commitment does not need to be exclusive to be strong and real.



> I just think monogamous people don't want to enable emotional freedom.


The reason is fear. 


> That's all. They treasure emotional commitment as a sign of loyalty (though that's hardly the primary reason).
> 
> Can you tell us how loyalty is exhibited, fostered, cherished and nurtured in a nonmonogonous relationship?


Honesty. The same way as in any other relationship that is working well. Working through rough times together. Cherishing each other's dreams. Holding each other up when one is down...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Quality said:


> And really, who says I have to tolerate anything, you? Our government's (ignorable) man made rules? How come you "get to" break norms but I'm expected to obey the law and not "physically force people to stop swinging"?


You sound like a gas at parties.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> They used to call gay people deviant. Do you know what deviant means?


I suspect that you don't really want to know what Quality thinks of gay people either.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I suspect that you don't really want to know what Quality thinks of gay people either.


Sin!


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Personally, and leaving the religious aspect of it out, I don't have a hell of a lot of problems with gays, or swingers. I'm just not inclined to be one. Suffice it to say, I've participated in a number of threesomes and wife watching events but always backed out when many of these come to involve, "male touching". I never went for that crap. I guess that makes me homophobic Always being the bad boy and pushing the envelope on rules ( and a problem with the male ego that I don't want folks trespassing on my property (you can interpret that anyway you wish, I don't give a sh1t)), in my younger and wilder year, I likely wouldn't mind banging your old lady's brains out, with or without your permission, but I wouldn't want you messing with mine. 
As the years passed, I met my wife and have been satisfied with both the way she treats me (emotional aspect) and the ride she gives me. I don't go lookin for something I've already got.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> They used to call gay people deviant. Do you know what deviant means? Departing from accepted standards. People who think necessarily depart from accepted standards because standards are developed to appeal to the lowest common denominator.


"used to"???




> playing with our kids and dogs.


Strange euphemism for swinging. :grin2:


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> "I just think monogonous people don't want to enable emotional freedom."
> 
> The reason is fear.
> 
> ...


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Quality said:


> Strange euphemism for swinging. :grin2:


Unless the dogs are referring to the husbands.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

VladDracul said:


> Unless the dogs are referring to the husbands.


Meeooowwww. Catty!


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

arbitrator said:


> *IMHO, "swinging," whether spouse endorsed or not, is "cheating!"
> 
> The only real difference is that each spouse actually gets to lay witness to the other "performing" the illicit and often soul-killing act!*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lean in agreement, here. I have always viewed ''swinging'' as something two married people get involved with who really probably should divorce, but because they don't want to go through a divorce, and have kids, bills, houses, etc together - they decide to 'date' and think that by doing it in this way, that they will get everything they both want. If your marriage is dead, or your feelings, sexual or otherwise are dead for your partner pretty much, then divorce...and go on to date others. That's far better than living a lie, and dragging everyone else (like your kids) down into your lie.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Unless there are religious convictions involved; I think* most (not all)* people don't swing, or have polyamory; because of sexual insecurity.

Men especially have a very difficult time with the idea of their wives having sex with another man---and that man doing it better than them. Men like to see women performing sex acts with other women; no other man to compete with in those scenarios.

And, as a woman, I would be _very_ insecure about my husband trying out another woman, and preferring her. I think it's quite likely that he would prefer another woman. But he wouldn't be likely to get the loyalty and devotion from anyone else, that he gets from me.

I also know that any man I willingly have sex with; I will begin to have feelings for him and start to feel in love. So, it's all a bit beyond my personal comprehension, how swinging and polyamory could be sustained in a traditional marriage.

But most (not all) people watch porn when they are married. Most (not all) people have other sexual partners before they are married. Most (not all) people feel attracted to others IRL after they get married. Men (not all) go to strip clubs before and after they are married. Some women do too.

So why is "swinging" seen as so extremely sick and nasty? The only answer I can come up with (other than religious beliefs) is sexual insecurity.


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

I've read articles authored by adults whose parents were swinging when they were young kids, and how it traumatized them. For those who say swinging doesn't have a negative impact on their children, they're wrong. I recall it was the AME cable channel who had a short lived show about swingers. They were from Ohio, I believed. They weren't careful about concealing the names of the couple on the show, so when I googled the mother's name, it returned very sexually graphic pictures of her and her husband. Imagine if their children googled their mother's name like many of us often do with our name, or if their friends did it and showed them the pictures. If they were my parents, I'd be ashamed for life. I'd want to crawl under a rock and hide from the rest of the world.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Unless there are religious convictions involved; I think* most (not all)* people don't swing, or have polyamory; because of sexual insecurity.
> 
> Men especially have a very difficult time with the idea of their wives having sex with another man---and that man doing it better than them. Men like to see women performing sex acts with other women; no other man to compete with in those scenarios.
> 
> ...


I think that swinging is a lie people tell themselves that they can 'have it all.' No one can have it all. You can't have 'monogamy' and also be a 'swinger.' Why not just divorce, and date others? It's a lie people tell themselves...hey, I can stay ''married'' and still keep sleeping around, and I'll live happily ever after. 

Doubtful most swingers are happy, because they're looking outside of their marriage for something to make them happy in it.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> I think that swinging is a lie people tell themselves that they can 'have it all.' No one can have it all. You can't have 'monogamy' and also be a 'swinger.' Why not just divorce, and date others? It's a lie people tell themselves...hey, I can stay ''married'' and still keep sleeping around, and I'll live happily ever after.
> 
> Doubtful most swingers are happy, because they're looking outside of their marriage for something to make them happy in it.


Obviously, one does NOT have monogamy if you swing. You have mutually consensual, limited non-monogamy. Why would swingers divorce? Most are extremely happy with their relationships, are already having better sex than many married couples, but also enjoy the occasional sexual variety that swinging provides without compromising their great relationship. You CAN have both! Millions of people DO have both, so it's not a lie we're telling ourselves. We are very aware of the state (marvelous!) of _our _relationship, and what we gain from having non-threatening sexual variety with other like-minded people.

You are also very, very, ridiculously wrong in assuming that it is necessary to look outside the marriage for happiness. The vast majority of swingers are already happy - they can just supplement their happiness. You may not be able to understand how this works, but nevertheless, it DOES work (notwithstanding the minority who shouldn't be swinging). But you don't have to take my word for it. Research has shown that swingers are generally happier in their marriages than traditional monogamists, and even healthier. So, it may not work for the majority of people who aren't interested in swinging for whatever reason (and really, that's great for them), but that does not in any way negate the fact that it works - and extremely well! - for some people.


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> Obviously, one does NOT have monogamy if you swing. You have mutually consensual, limited non-monogamy. Why would swingers divorce? Most are extremely happy with their relationships, are already having better sex than many married couples, but also enjoy the occasional sexual variety that swinging provides without compromising their great relationship. You CAN have both! Millions of people DO have both, so it's not a lie we're telling ourselves. We are very aware of the state (marvelous!) of _our _relationship, and what we gain from having non-threatening sexual variety with other like-minded people.
> 
> You are also very, very, ridiculously wrong in assuming that it is necessary to look outside the marriage for happiness. The vast majority of swingers are already happy - they can just supplement their happiness. You may not be able to understand how this works, but nevertheless, it DOES work (notwithstanding the minority who shouldn't be swinging). But you don't have to take my word for it. Research has shown that swingers are generally happier in their marriages than traditional monogamists, and even healthier. So, it may not work for the majority of people who aren't interested in swinging for whatever reason (and really, that's great for them), but that does not in any way negate the fact that it works - and extremely well! - for some people.


You keep using words like "most" and "the vast majority" to support your argument about the positives of swinging, but do you have any concrete evidence to back that up? I surmise this is your limited experience only. Do you keep in touch with all the swinging couples you've met, or do you just assume that if they stop contact that their marriages are still on the up and up? If they do divorce, do they report to you to let you know so you can keep a mental record? Like I said, when swinging couples divorce, it's usually under irreconcilable differences and not under "we tried swinging and it destroyed our marriage."


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

becareful2 said:


> You keep using words like "most" and "the vast majority" to support your argument about the positives of swinging, but do you have any concrete evidence to back that up? I surmise this is your limited experience only. Do you keep in touch with all the swinging couples you've met, or do you just assume that if they stop contact that their marriages are still on the up and up? If they do divorce, do they report to you to let you know so you can keep a mental record? Like I said, when swinging couples divorce, it's usually under irreconcilable differences and not under "we tried swinging and it destroyed our marriage."


We encounter hundreds of swinger couples that we've met over the years are social events. So, my experience encompasses a statistically large group. In addition to that, there are peer-reviewed scientific studies that looked at thousands of swinger couples, that support my assertions. I also know far more supposedly monogamous couples who have cheated on their partners, and split up as a result - so, NON-consensual non-monogamy. This happens FAR less often with swinging couples, unless they already had the same problems as monogamous couples do.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> Obviously, one does NOT have monogamy if you swing. You have mutually consensual, limited non-monogamy. Why would swingers divorce? Most are extremely happy with their relationships, are already having better sex than many married couples, but also enjoy the occasional sexual variety that swinging provides without compromising their great relationship. You CAN have both! Millions of people DO have both, so it's not a lie we're telling ourselves. We are very aware of the state (marvelous!) of _our _relationship, and what we gain from having non-threatening sexual variety with other like-minded people.
> 
> You are also very, very, ridiculously wrong in assuming that it is necessary to look outside the marriage for happiness. The vast majority of swingers are already happy - they can just supplement their happiness. You may not be able to understand how this works, but nevertheless, it DOES work (notwithstanding the minority who shouldn't be swinging). But you don't have to take my word for it. Research has shown that swingers are generally happier in their marriages than traditional monogamists, and even healthier. So, it may not work for the majority of people who aren't interested in swinging for whatever reason (and really, that's great for them), but that does not in any way negate the fact that it works - and extremely well! - for some people.



Why be married? 

Define ''works.''


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Of what I've read about swinging, it's not something that is decided upon before the couple married, but it became something they decided to after. Probably after the boredom set in, or their sex life wasn't go so well...it sounds like an escape route for a couple who isn't all that compatible, and wants to add variety to their lives, without risking their marriage. But, it doesn't challenge the couple to fix what might be wrong IN their marriage...they just seek variety outside of it. If that is how some married couples make it 'work,' no thanks. Just sounds like an escape route for when things are not everything you hoped for in your marriage, you can seek it outside of it. If the majority of swingers got married with that in mind before the wedding, that would be different. But, sounds like it is something one or the other wants to do and the other goes along with it, as to not lose the marriage. 

This is what I've read about it, not saying there aren't happy swingers who are married, but again...swinging doesn't sound like it gets you to look at maybe something going wrong in your marriage, if something is not quite right...you go seeking it out with someone else. And because your spouse knows, then it doesn't seem so bad, I guess. Seems like a complicated way to live.


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> We encounter hundreds of swinger couples that we've met over the years are social events. So, my experience encompasses a statistically large group. In addition to that, there are peer-reviewed scientific studies that looked at thousands of swinger couples, that support my assertions. I also know far more supposedly monogamous couples who have cheated on their partners, and split up as a result - so, NON-consensual non-monogamy. This happens FAR less often with swinging couples, unless they already had the same problems as monogamous couples do.


So you have no idea if those hundreds of swinging couples are still happily swinging today? Of course, when swinging couples meet, everybody has to put on a happy face. That doesn't really say much, though. I'd be interested to know of any follow-up to those studies to find out if those couples are still happily married and still into the swinging lifestyle.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

DrSher said:


> HAHAHA. the Brits really screwed themselves over like rat of Europe. They disarmed their entire population; emasculated every native man; banned everything from porn to prostitution; taxed the productive to death; still keeps telling their men how chauvinist they are and now they have to deal with the new men coming...
> 
> Entire Europe is rotting apart. All the emasculated castratis over there couldn't help themselves even if they HAD guns. The noise would create "anxiety".
> 
> ...


You haven't been in many Scots or Irish pubs then?
Or caught a footy match....


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

*Deidre* said:


> Of what I've read about swinging, it's not something that is decided upon before the couple married, but it became something they decided to after.


A couple I know got into swinging because she wanted a girlfriend. They didn't want some young skank or hysterical/bipolar woman with issues, she wanted someone reasonably mature, self supporting and personally honest, who didn't "want" something (eg trying to get to her husband/assets) and that unlike poly wouldn't be dealing with her kids as any part of the relationship. Somewhere safe, with an available woman who was relaxed and open or single (and without disease).
Her husband wanted similar, although he was happy with their sex life, had no interest in other guys at all, but was mildly curious about seeing two (or more) women together.

Swinging (according to the brochure) would fit those ideas.

What she didn't count on was, many of the people weren't in good shape (her and her husband were early 40's, not athletic but "tidy"), that she didn't really get "a girlfriend" as there were much fewer women actively participating and those that did tended to have their own little "harems" of male advocates, with the occasional attached woman. And so instead of getting "a girlfriend for fun and games" she initially ended up with a bunch of "part time husbands" (which is apparently lots more work, and not so much of the fun [I get the feeling that one is expected to 'entertain' rather than just be an equal, in such 'relations']. She did in the end get some parttime girlfriends and her husband found that he had a mild fetish for cuckolding, and she was surprised at the strength of her negative reaction at seeing him with another female (even one that was just the three of them). But they're still happily together, although they don't attend much anymore, from what I hear.

Also, fyi, it seems not a lot of poly-folk get into the swinging scene. which is mildly surprising, that therefore swinging tends to be for monogamous couples (or younger women looking for sugar daddies/mommies, from what I hear...)

PS apparently it is amusing when you get socially (or professionally) introduced to someone for the "first" time, that you've only met before at the swinging group . Since you have to act as if you've never met them before, but you know them (or their partner) rather well (and sometimes some of their fetishes.....)


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> Why would swingers divorce? Most are extremely happy with their relationships, are already having better sex than many married couples, but also enjoy the occasional sexual variety that swinging provides without compromising their great relationship. You CAN have both! .


It ain't much of a stretch to understand how easy it would be to meet someone you have better chemistry with, both emotional and physical, since you're already experiencing the most intimate closeness. I ain't knocking it if you're into that sort of thing but you have to admit it appears to add a new level of risk. 
Each "swinger" in the a given relationship can only speak only for themselves that the relationship is strong and happy enough to avoid getting overly involved with another swinger. Their mate may have other ideas despite what they tell you. Any husband or wife in a mono relationship believes the marriage is so strong that neither will get involved in an hot and heavy affair; until the cats out of the bag.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

spotthedeaddog said:


> A couple I know got into swinging because she wanted a girlfriend. They didn't want some young skank or hysterical/bipolar woman with issues, she wanted someone reasonably mature, self supporting and personally honest, who didn't "want" something (eg trying to get to her husband/assets) and that unlike poly wouldn't be dealing with her kids as any part of the relationship. Somewhere safe, with an available woman who was relaxed and open or single (and without disease).
> Her husband wanted similar, although he was happy with their sex life, had no interest in other guys at all, but was mildly curious about seeing two (or more) women together.
> 
> Swinging (according to the brochure) would fit those ideas.
> ...


 Sounds like it gets complicated. 



> PS apparently it is amusing when you get socially (or professionally) introduced to someone for the "first" time, that you've only met before at the swinging group . Since you have to act as if you've never met them before, but you know them (or their partner) rather well (and sometimes some of their fetishes.....)


oh my lol :surprise:


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

LucasJackson said:


> Swinging is bizarre to me. I don't give a **** if swingers want to swing but I just don't get it. What self-respecting person wants to watch their spouse boning or getting boned by other people? It's just nasty. I've seen the documentaries on HBO about swingers. They always give off such a creepy vibe.


The creepy vibe is often from social cues that are culturally different to yours, and very different to what actors portray on TV. Also it doesn't help that TV tries to get "interesting" or "authoritative" people to be the visual voice of the article so depending on the slant of the article and the size of the pool they're picking from they can get some odd people (many "normal" people don't want to be outed on TV about their lifestyle, which also would out many of their friends too).

As for the other (watching partner). Or joining in with partner and other, it's a bit like many other things, it might not be -your- interest but I assure you many others are very happy with it. Hence why good groups have different nights or rooms, and/or travel.

I must admit, personally, I like the openness that it brings about with sex and sexuality both in my partner(s) and in friends. But without it being central or overly public topic. It creates a bit more emotional bond, kind of like the old skin-mag "forum" stories but on steroids.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> Why be married?
> 
> Define ''works.''


Why not be married?

How well does monogamy work? Not very, it seems with at least a quarter of all couples not being able to achieve it. Better to deal with the issue of sex with other people openly and honestly, and together. That usually _does_ work.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

VladDracul said:


> It ain't much of a stretch to understand how easy it would be to meet someone you have better chemistry with, both emotional and physical, since you're already experiencing the most intimate closeness. I ain't knocking it if you're into that sort of thing but you have to admit it appears to add a new level of risk.
> Each "swinger" in the a given relationship can only speak only for themselves that the relationship is strong and happy enough to avoid getting overly involved with another swinger. Their mate may have other ideas despite what they tell you. Any husband or wife in a mono relationship believes the marriage is so strong that neither will get involved in an hot and heavy affair; until the cats out of the bag.


Well, that's the thing: belief. Monogamy assumes certain things, that often are not true. Monogamous risk is hidden because of convention, and the (often wrong) assumption that monogamy insulates you from risk. Swingers explicitly discuss these risk issues, and how to deal with them. Sure, there is always risk, but perhaps there is LESS risk when you mutually agree on the boundaries, as in swinging. Risk can be managed. Swingers who have higher risk issues tend to compensate by never playing with another couple more than once. That way, they can't get more deeply involved. Those who have stronger relationships, can have long-term swinging relationship and friendships, without any added risk. We've had long-term, multi-year friendly swinging relationships that have never created any temptation to go beyond our boundaries. If we want to to push the boundaries, we discuss it first. We've never had a problem because of this, and the vast majority of other swinger couples we know have not either.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

*Deidre* said:


> Lean in agreement, here. I have always viewed ''swinging'' as something two married people get involved with who really probably should divorce, but because they don't want to go through a divorce, and have kids, bills, houses, etc together - they decide to 'date' and think that by doing it in this way, that they will get everything they both want. If your marriage is dead, or your feelings, sexual or otherwise are dead for your partner pretty much, then divorce...and go on to date others. That's far better than living a lie, and dragging everyone else (like your kids) down into your lie.


For swinging as a couple (as opposed to two singles so he can go too), it requires more and better communication. If things are on the rocks swinging is more likely to end it (same as any increase in social contacts).
Swinging works better when people are happy with their personal relationship and are looking to extend/expand themselves.

eg One couple I know personally, she loves being the dominant marriage partner, and he loves a considerably more submissive role, even in public. They both well educated, happy, healthy, jobs with respect, income, and assets. And they both enjoy "sex" so they grew it into a bigger hobby. Some people collect stamps, others make model aeroplanes, she ties several people up at a time and whips them in her very tidy soundproofed room while he gets ordered about. Naught as strange as folk...n'ver saw the interest in stamps myself...


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## happy2gether (Dec 6, 2015)

*Deidre* said:


> Of what I've read about swinging, it's not something that is decided upon before the couple married, but it became something they decided to after. Probably after the boredom set in, or their sex life wasn't go so well...it sounds like an escape route for a couple who isn't all that compatible, and wants to add variety to their lives, without risking their marriage.


well, my wife and I have been together 22 years, married 14, and swinging off and on for 21 years. never been any boredom in our bedroom, even when we were taking a break from swinging for a few years. Many couple we know started within a few months of dating, again before marriage. yes many wait until later when the real trust builds, but for some us we have enough trust in each other to truly be able to enjoy ourselves and know nothing beyond a fun time will come of it.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

happy2gether said:


> well, my wife and I have been together 22 years, married 14, and swinging off and on for 21 years. never been any boredom in our bedroom, even when we were taking a break from swinging for a few years. Many couple we know started within a few months of dating, again before marriage. yes many wait until later when the real trust builds, but for some us we have enough trust in each other to truly be able to enjoy ourselves and know nothing beyond a fun time will come of it.


If everything is so wonderful, why are you here?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Well I guess I'm a primate compared to most. I'd chop a guy's arm off and beat him to death with it if I saw him railing my woman.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

I've looked a lot of porn. A lot interests me but doesn't raise the flagpole. W touches me for a second and I'm there. She completely does it for me. Even in my imagination, banging anyone else doesn't stand up to W - even remotely. Maybe that's just the bottom line.

I don't want to trade out a winning for a mediocre or losing hand. Maybe you have to experience this feeling to understand why non monogomy is not very interesting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DayOne (Sep 19, 2014)

MrsAldi said:


> Wait, swingers party beside a church & a pub called The C0ck Inn?
> Comedians in England are loving this I bet.


We (M'Lady and I) attended a fetish event last weekend, hosted at a naturist club. Which, either by design or a he11 of a coincidence is based in about the most appropriately named location ever. 

Pennis Wood, in Fawkham, Kent.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> If everything is so wonderful, why are you here?


I can answer that one, for myself. Because I might learn something that will help me improve my marriage even more, or share something that will help others. I'm very interested in relationship psychology and dynamics of all types, so I find hearing what others have to say - directly from their own hearts and minds - very interesting.

There are a bunch of others here who are also in ideal relationships. Ideal in that they have a wonderful partner, lasting, happy marriages, and even great sex lives - and few or no significant problems. Some of us manage this even though we're not in conventional or traditional marriages. We may sometimes have a different perspective that some people find useful, even though it is sometimes necessary to argue with contrary views and even rampant misconceptions.

Honestly, though, it may mostly be for the entertainment value. The first thing I look for is something new in "Humorous Memes"!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> Of what I've read about swinging, it's not something that is decided upon before the couple married, but it became something they decided to after. Probably after the boredom set in, or their sex life wasn't go so well...it sounds like an escape route for a couple who isn't all that compatible, and wants to add variety to their lives, without risking their marriage.


Most of my best friends I met through swinging. GMTA and all that. These people, and we, engaged in this activity when our sex lives were going GREAT.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> I can answer that one, for myself. Because I might learn something that will help me improve my marriage even more, or share something that will help others. I'm very interested in relationship psychology and dynamics of all types, so I find hearing what others have to say - directly from their own hearts and minds - very interesting.
> 
> There are a bunch of others here who are also in ideal relationships. Ideal in that they have a wonderful partner, lasting, happy marriages, and even great sex lives - and few or no significant problems. Some of us manage this even though we're not in conventional or traditional marriages. We may sometimes have a different perspective that some people find useful, even though it is sometimes necessary to argue with contrary views and even rampant misconceptions.
> 
> Honestly, though, it may mostly be for the entertainment value. The first thing I look for is something new in "Humorous Memes"!


This place is full of pain. Not a place for happy people. It's a place where those of us who've felt the flames can talk among ourselves. I seriously doubt the happiness of someone if they're spending any significant time in a place like this. I know a ton of really happy couples IRL, and none of them ever come to places like this. Why would they, they're happy. 

There are plenty of relationship sites and even other happier sections of this site. This particular section, however, is filled with pain. When "happy" people take up residence it feels like those people who slow down at the scene of a horrific traffic accident so they can get a good look at the carnage. Then they have the nerve to tell people who have been cut to the bone "hey, look at us, we're such a happy couple". It's like approaching a person in a wheel chair and saying "hey, watch this" and then tap dancing in front of them.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> Lean in agreement, here. I have always viewed ''swinging'' as something two married people get involved with who really probably should divorce, but because they don't want to go through a divorce, and have kids, bills, houses, etc together - they decide to 'date' and think that by doing it in this way, that they will get everything they both want. If your marriage is dead, or your feelings, sexual or otherwise are dead for your partner pretty much, then divorce...and go on to date others. That's far better than living a lie, and dragging everyone else (like your kids) down into your lie.


If you can share that level of intimacy with another, then your marriage is dead whether someone wants to admit it or not.


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## happy2gether (Dec 6, 2015)

LucasJackson said:


> If everything is so wonderful, why are you here?


Because seeing the misery of some folks on here helps to remind me/us of just how good we have it. I seriously laugh out loud at how 90% of the time folks here respond to "is my spouse cheating" with "Yes and you need to leave now", based solely on the one sided and often overly jealous post. I mean seriously, it is no wonder many folks here can't keep a mate, they refuse to trust anyone or even give the benefit of the doubt given a perceived slight. Many posters here are a prime example of what NOT to do if you want a successful relationship.

There are MANY threads on this board that actually do give insight into how to improve a relationship, and while what we have is great there is always room to improve things so these come in handy as well. 


Lastly I too look forward to updates in the Humorous Memes thread.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> This place is full of pain. Not a place for happy people. It's a place where those of us who've felt the flames can talk among ourselves. I seriously doubt the happiness of someone if they're spending any significant time in a place like this. I know a ton of really happy couples IRL, and none of them ever come to places like this. Why would they, they're happy.
> 
> There are plenty of relationship sites and even other happier sections of this site. This particular section, however, is filled with pain. When "happy" people take up residence it feels like those people who slow down at the scene of a horrific traffic accident so they can get a good look at the carnage. Then they have the nerve to tell people who have been cut to the bone "hey, look at us, we're such a happy couple". It's like approaching a person in a wheel chair and saying "hey, watch this" and then tap dancing in front of them.


Your perspective is far too narrow and negative, Lucas. Besides, I had a bad first marriage that I chose to end, so I've had some of the same experiences that many here have had. I've come out the other side very happy and successful in a new relationship, so I can share what worked for me to achieve that, based on actual experience.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> Well I guess I'm a primate compared to most. I'd chop a guy's arm off and beat him to death with it if I saw him railing my woman.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Railing? Really?


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Ya Bandit, why do you want to refer to humping like a ferret as railing? You need to clean up your act my man.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> Well I guess I'm a primate compared to most. I'd chop a guy's arm off and beat him to death with it if I saw him railing my woman.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Okay, I see your problem, here. You're channeling your inner-orangutan, not your inner-bonobo.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> Okay, I see your problem, here. You're channeling your inner-orangutan, not your inner-bonobo.


What's a bonobo?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> Your perspective is far too narrow and negative, Lucas. Besides, I had a bad first marriage that I chose to end, so I've had some of the same experiences that many here have had. I've come out the other side very happy and successful in a new relationship, so I can share what worked for me to achieve that, based on actual experience.


Why do you need to soil the institution of traditional marriage then by pushing this philosophy. 

I don't get you. Wouldn't it be more prudent for you and your wife not to be legally married but instead be in a committed poly-amorous relationship? Why would you entangle yourself with all the legal booby traps that go along with legal marriage. Why not just live together, have your family and then be free to sail on to newer seas once the shine wears off?

If you were a business man I wouldn't loan money to you. You are not very logical. 

Marriage is for monogamous people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

VladDracul said:


> Ya Bandit, why do you want to refer to humping like a ferret as railing? You need to clean up your act my man.


Oh I'm sorry 

I meant laying pipe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> Why do you need to soil the institution of traditional marriage then by pushing this philosophy.
> 
> I don't get you. Wouldn't it be more prudent for you and your wife not to be legally married but instead be in a committed poly-amorous relationship? Why would you entangle yourself with all the legal booby traps that go along with legal marriage. Why not just live together, have your family and then be free to sail on to newer seas once the shine wears off?
> 
> ...


You'd be a poor businessman, then. I am actually very logical, and have excellent credit ratings!

But to answer your question ... Given the nature and laws of the society we live in, there are pragmatic advantages to marriage, particularly financial and in terms of benefits, such as health insurance. It was a logical decision to marry. 

Besides, our experiences with poly/open/swinging relationships is very secondary to our deep love and commitment to each other. The "shine" hasn't worn off after 16 years, so we're doing far better than many supposedly monogamous couples. 

What IS illogical is the belief that monogamy confers sexual exclusivity, when we know all too often that doesn't happen. You seem to be suffering under the illusion that marriage is only one thing, whereas it is (and always has been) different things to different people, and in different times and cultures. BTW, I think the institution of traditional marriage has soiled itself. Time for a diaper change!


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Um, no the laws of marriage in most societies has, for most of human history, in the Western world at least , been enforced as a legal union between one male and one female. 

Are you denying history? You seem to be the delusional one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> Um, no the laws of marriage in most societies has, for most of human history, in the Western world at least , been enforced as a legal union between one male and one female.
> 
> Are you denying history? You seem to be the delusional one.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Law is one thing. What people do in practice is another. Historically, men have often had mistresses, concubines, or other extra-marital relationships in western (and all other) culture, while doing their best to keep their wives under lock and key. Even many clergy had mistresses! One of those do as I say, not as I do <wink><wink> situations.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Married but Happy said:


> Law is one thing. What people do in practice is another. Historically, men have often had mistresses, concubines, or other extra-marital relationships in western (and all other) culture, while doing their best to keep their wives under lock and key. Even many clergy had mistresses! One of those do as I say, not as I do <wink><wink> situations.




Historically women were chattel too. Job had everything taken from him by the devil and in the end God made him whole by providing a new wife. Women HAD to quit jobs as soon as they married in the US during the 1900's because married women weren't allowed in the workforce.

Of course marriages were good and bad historically, and when they were bad there was no recourse, so adultery was known as a solution (I differentiate known from accepted - because I doubt it was truly accepted but rather tolerated and understood). 

Clergy were not allowed to marry as a practical matter to prevent loss of church assets - traditionally the eldest son inherited the fathers assets.

I don't think referencing historical adultery to bolster your argument is very sound unless you assume current monogomous relationships also contain historical repressive cultural aspects as well. And if you're for firing married women from the workforce, well then maybe you're not the progressive thinker you believe you are.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> Oh I'm sorry
> 
> I meant laying pipe.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


See, it just makes you feel better to use a more sophisticated vernacular.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

happy2gether said:


> Because seeing the misery of some folks on here helps to remind me/us of just how good we have it. I seriously laugh out loud at how 90% of the time folks here respond to "is my spouse cheating" with "Yes and you need to leave now", based solely on the one sided and often overly jealous post. I mean seriously, it is no wonder many folks here can't keep a mate, they refuse to trust anyone or even give the benefit of the doubt given a perceived slight. Many posters here are a prime example of what NOT to do if you want a successful relationship.
> 
> There are MANY threads on this board that actually do give insight into how to improve a relationship, and while what we have is great there is always room to improve things so these come in handy as well.
> 
> ...


It's possible that a couple can be really into one another without the need to bring others into it.  Some people meant their vows on their wedding day, and don't think that sleeping with others is a healthy idea. That doesn't make them jealous and insecure, that makes them real and committed. 

I think that our culture is obsessed with sex, and that getting off whenever and however you like, even if that means bringing outsiders into your marriage, has become a sad reality for so many. But to each their own, if something like a disease, accident, or condition ever causes them to not be able to have sex at all, I wonder how they'll be able to cope since they put so much importance on sex. Sex is important in a relationship but it shouldn't be how someone judges their own self worth, or the value of their marriage. If you have to bring others into your marriage in order to 'be happy' in your marriage, that is unhealthy IMO.

Not sure what anyone is missing here but if you have a ''great'' marriage and ''great'' sex life, the desire to sleep with others simply wouldn't be there. Unless people view sex as like taking up tennis or something lol...and instead of taking tennis lessons, you go and sleep with random strangers. But, it's much more than that, thus the thread theme here. People weren't meant to be used as props to ''help'' their marriage get better, and to me, it's not different than infidelity, in the respect that you desire someone other than your spouse. Your spouse knowing that you want to sleep with others, doesn't change that. That's the truth. You can spin it however you like, to justify why you do it, and convince yourself that your marriage is ''great'' but if it was truly great, you wouldn't need to sleep with others. It's really that simple, IMO. If people want to sleep around, don't get married. Being married and sleeping around is a dangerous thing to do, no matter how anyone justifies it.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Historically women were chattel too. Job had everything taken from him by the devil and in the end God made him whole by providing a new wife. Women HAD to quit jobs as soon as they married in the US during the 1900's because married women weren't allowed in the workforce.
> 
> Of course marriages were good and bad historically, and when they were bad there was no recourse, so adultery was known as a solution (I differentiate known from accepted - because I doubt it was truly accepted but rather tolerated and understood).
> 
> ...


That's it? A silly religious reference, a few irrelevant historical facts, irrational leaps of illogic, and a thinly veiled ad hominem attack? (And one that's so wildly off-target that I don't even want to reply in kind - you've shown your colors.)


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

*Deidre* said:


> I think that swinging is a lie people tell themselves that they can 'have it all.' No one can have it all. You can't have 'monogamy' and also be a 'swinger.' Why not just divorce, and date others? It's a lie people tell themselves...hey, I can stay ''married'' and still keep sleeping around, and I'll live happily ever after.


When were you appointed spokesman for the local swinger's population and their motives?

We have at least two of them in this very thread telling you why they do what they do, but you're convinced that you have the insight and authority to speak for them? That seems more than just a bit presumptive.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Cletus said:


> When were you appointed spokesman for the local swinger's population and their motives?
> 
> We have at least two of them in this very thread telling you why they do what they do, but you're convinced that you have the insight and authority to speak for them? That seems more than just a bit presumptive.


I specifically state it's my opinion. But who are they to tell married couples that they're insecure for not wanting to ''swing?''


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

*Deidre* said:


> I specifically state it's my opinion. But who are they to tell married couples that they're insecure for not wanting to ''swing?''


Unless I missed it, none of the swingers here are doing that. Mostly, they're having to defend their lifestyle from those who would tell them what marital and mental issues they must have to be practicing it. And they're doing it with grace, poise and patience. More than I have, at least, but then I don't swing.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Cletus said:


> Unless I missed it, none of the swingers here are doing that. Mostly, they're having to defend their lifestyle from those who would tell them what marital and mental issues they must have to be practicing it. And they're doing it with grace, poise and patience. More than I have, at least, but then I don't swing.


Go back a page or so, and it's there. I can have an opinion, that's how I've worded things. You're welcome to not like my opinion, but I'm welcome to not agree that swinging is a healthy addition to a marriage.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> What's a bonobo?


The bonobo is the slvt of the primate world.

Wikipedia: Bonobo



Wikipedia said:


> Sexual activity generally plays a major role in bonobo society, being used as what some scientists perceive as a greeting, a means of forming social bonds, a means of conflict resolution, and postconflict reconciliation. Bonobos are the only non-human animal to have been observed engaging in tongue kissing, and oral sex. Bonobos and humans are the only primates to typically engage in face-to-face genital sex, although a pair of western gorillas has been photographed in this position.
> 
> Bonobos do not form permanent monogamous sexual relationships with individual partners. They also do not seem to discriminate in their sexual behavior by sex or age, with the possible exception of abstaining from sexual activity between mothers and their adult sons. When bonobos come upon a new food source or feeding ground, the increased excitement will usually lead to communal sexual activity, presumably decreasing tension and encouraging peaceful feeding. This quality is also described by Dr. Susan Block as "The Bonobo Way" in her book of the same title "The Bonobo Way: The Evolution of Peace Through Pleasure".
> 
> Bonobo clitorises are larger and more externalized than in most mammals; while the weight of a young adolescent female bonobo "is maybe half" that of a human teenager, she has a clitoris that is "three times bigger than the human equivalent, and visible enough to waggle unmistakably as she walks". In scientific literature, the female–female behavior of bonobos pressing genitals together is often referred to as genito-genital (GG) rubbing, which is the non-human analogue of tribadism, engaged in by human females. This sexual activity happens within the immediate female bonobo community and sometimes outside of it. Ethologist Jonathan Balcombe stated that female bonobos rub their clitorises together rapidly for ten to twenty seconds, and this behavior, "which may be repeated in rapid succession, is usually accompanied by grinding, shrieking, and clitoral engorgement"; he added that it is estimated that they engage in this practice "about once every two hours" on average. Because bonobos occasionally copulate face-to-face, "evolutionary biologist Marlene Zuk has suggested that the position of the clitoris in bonobos and some other primates has evolved to maximize stimulation during sexual intercourse". On the other hand, the frequency of face-to-face mating observed in zoos and sanctuaries is not reflected in the wild, and thus may be an artifact of captivity. The position of the clitoris may alternatively permit GG-rubbings, which has been hypothesized to function as a means for female bonobos to evaluate their intrasocial relationships.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> Your perspective is far too narrow and negative, Lucas. Besides, I had a bad first marriage that I chose to end, so I've had some of the same experiences that many here have had. I've come out the other side very happy and successful in a new relationship, so I can share what worked for me to achieve that, based on actual experience.


If the new relationship is so awesome, why spend time on this particular section of the site? When my relationship was awesome I didn't even know this place existed.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

happy2gether said:


> Because seeing the misery of some folks on here helps to remind me/us of just how good we have it. I seriously laugh out loud at how 90% of the time folks here respond to "is my spouse cheating" with "Yes and you need to leave now", based solely on the one sided and often overly jealous post. I mean seriously, it is no wonder many folks here can't keep a mate, they refuse to trust anyone or even give the benefit of the doubt given a perceived slight. Many posters here are a prime example of what NOT to do if you want a successful relationship.
> 
> There are MANY threads on this board that actually do give insight into how to improve a relationship, and while what we have is great there is always room to improve things so these come in handy as well.
> 
> ...



I don't buy it. Happy people don't hang out in places like this. The part I underlined supports what I posted earlier. Some "happy" posters come here to get off on the pain of others. That's pretty sick.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> It's possible that a couple can be really into one another without the need to bring others into it.  Some people meant their vows on their wedding day, and don't think that sleeping with others is a healthy idea. That doesn't make them jealous and insecure, that makes them real and committed.
> 
> I think that our culture is obsessed with sex, and that getting off whenever and however you like, even if that means bringing outsiders into your marriage, has become a sad reality for so many. But to each their own, if something like a disease, accident, or condition ever causes them to not be able to have sex at all, I wonder how they'll be able to cope since they put so much importance on sex. Sex is important in a relationship but it shouldn't be how someone judges their own self worth, or the value of their marriage. If you have to bring others into your marriage in order to 'be happy' in your marriage, that is unhealthy IMO.
> 
> Not sure what anyone is missing here but if you have a ''great'' marriage and ''great'' sex life, the desire to sleep with others simply wouldn't be there.


How old are you? Apparently unmarried. You know ALL about it. You read from people who actually know, having been there, then make up your own ideas out of whole cloth. Good luck!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> If the new relationship is so awesome, why spend time on this particular section of the site? When my relationship was awesome I didn't even know this place existed.


New topics come up on the right hand side of the page regardless of the subforum. Some of us are used to angry vitriol spouted about swinging. It is a fun topic.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

*Deidre* said:


> Go back a page or so, and it's there. I can have an opinion, that's how I've worded things. You're welcome to not like my opinion, but I'm welcome to not agree that swinging is a healthy addition to a marriage.


Yeah, you're welcome to have an opinion. Like the saying goes...

I often wonder what causes someone to value her opinion over the statements of those who have actually lived the opposite. I have never understood that level of hubris. 

Clearly swinging isn't for everyone, probably not even for many. But you have neither the qualifications, expertise, nor authority to opine about what makes any other person choose it, ESPECIALLY when they tell you otherwise from personal experience.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> I specifically state it's my opinion. But who are they to tell married couples that they're insecure for not wanting to ''swing?''


I mentioned fear. Not insecurity. I think fear drives people to fail to accept that you cannot ever be everything to another person. This is why people cling to exclusivity, as a means of proving to themselves that they ARE everything to their partner. This self delusions leads to all sorts of upset including porn use, cheating...

I know I am not everything to my husband. But apparently, I am enough. And he is awesome for me. Nuff said.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> New topics come up on the right hand side of the page regardless of the subforum. Some of us are used to angry vitriol spouted about swinging. It is a fun topic.


Swingers can swing, I don't care. They should just be honest about it. If your spouses were fulfilling you and you them, there would be no need for swinging. People do not seek what they don't feel a need for. When somebody cheats or swings or smokes or uses drugs, they're needing something. Swingers are not happy with their spouses so they need sex from others. If they were happy, that need wouldn't be there. Not that there's any moral issue. It just is what it is, we should all be honest about it.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> Swingers can swing, I don't care. They should just be honest about it. If your spouses were fulfilling you and you them, there would be no need for swinging. People do not seek what they don't feel a need for. When somebody cheats or swings or smokes or uses drugs, they're needing something. Swingers are not happy with their spouses so they need sex from others. If they were happy, that need wouldn't be there. Not that there's any moral issue. It just is what it is, we should all be honest about it.


This is rich. When someone shares their thoughts they are called dishonest for not agreeing with the people they are sharing their thoughts with. 

I am telling you, in complete honesty, that sexual and romantic exclusivity is not necessary for my husband and I to love each other madly. That swinging is not something we "needed" so much as wanted to do. I have made the best friends of my life through this shared adventure. When my house breaks, they come out to help me. When we have something to celebrate, I bring food. And in the end, despite having many different options laid before him, he has always chosen me. And I have always chosen him. Can you say the same?


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> I mentioned fear. Not insecurity. I think fear drives people to fail to accept that you cannot ever be everything to another person. This is why people cling to exclusivity, as a means of proving to themselves that they ARE everything to their partner. This self delusions leads to all sorts of upset including porn use, cheating...
> 
> I know I am not everything to my husband. But apparently, I am enough. And he is awesome for me. Nuff said.


I think this makes a lot of sense, and in my opinion, from the failed marriages I've seen with friends and family, it seems that the reasons were unreasonable expectations of another person to 'make' them happy or to fulfill each and every need. To me, even though I've never been married, it's unreasonable to expect someone else to be my 'everything.' That's where much of the unhappiness seems to stem from, from my observations with people going through divorces offline and online.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> This is rich. When someone shares their thoughts they are called dishonest for not agreeing with the people they are sharing their thoughts with.
> 
> I am telling you, in complete honesty, that sexual and romantic exclusivity is not necessary for my husband and I to love each other madly. That swinging is not something we "needed" so much as wanted to do. I have made the best friends of my life through this shared adventure. When my house breaks, they come out to help me. When we have something to celebrate, I bring food. And in the end, despite having many different options laid before him, he has always chosen me. And I have always chosen him. Can you say the same?


Of course he chooses you and you choose him. You both let each other cheat and there are no repercussions. He's in dude heaven. Has a wife to do domestic stuff and all the women he can snag on the side. The trade off is he has to suck it up when some guy more well endowed and better than him is curling your toes. If that's your bag that's cool but don't say you don't need it. if you didn't, you wouldn't do it. You two aren't enough for each other and there's nothing wrong with that but I like to keep it real.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Cletus said:


> Yeah, you're welcome to have an opinion. Like the saying goes...
> 
> I often wonder what causes someone to value her opinion over the statements of those who have actually lived the opposite. I have never understood that level of hubris.
> 
> Clearly swinging isn't for everyone, probably not even for many. But you have neither the qualifications, expertise, nor authority to opine about what makes any other person choose it, ESPECIALLY when they tell you otherwise from personal experience.


My opinion comes from observations of people who have cheated on their spouses and from people who I've known in 'open marriages.' There seems to be something more at play, than 'we have a great marriage and we just like swinging.' They don't seem all that content in their relationships.

I'm not judging swinging as good or bad, I'm observing it as a dangerous thing to enter into if you're married, and that people should not think all non-swingers are closed minded people who just can't grasp how freeing and awesome swinging is. I'll admit, I don't get the appeal of sleeping with people outside of ones marriage or relationship, and taking chances with your own safety and health in order to do that.

And if you have kids who are old enough to understand things...do swinging couples lie to them or tell them straight up that they're swingers? If they're lying to their kids or not being straight with them, then that should tell them what they're doing isn't healthy.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> If the new relationship is so awesome, why spend time on this particular section of the site? When my relationship was awesome I didn't even know this place existed.


I don't pay attention to what section I'm looking at. I just look at New Posts, and contribute to any I find interesting. Since there are no rules limiting where I can post, I'll do whatever I want, within the site rules.

Why do you care where I post? I don't care where you post. Even if you're not qualified to have an opinion (I'm not saying you are or are not, BTW), you're entitled to express one. As am I.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> Of course he chooses you and you choose him. You both let each other cheat and there are no repercussions. He's in dude heaven. Has a wife to do domestic stuff and all the women he can snag on the side. The trade off is he has to suck it up when some guy more well endowed and better than him is curling your toes. If that's your bag that's cool but don't say you don't need it. if you didn't, you wouldn't do it. You two aren't enough for each other and there's nothing wrong with that but I like to keep it real.


Wait. I do domestic stuff? I have to check my journal. I thought that is what I had kids for. And for curling toes, I actually like to see my man being happy whether with me or with me and someone else. As for need, we must not need it since we don't do it right now. There are a lot of things I do that I don't need. Like ribs tonight for dinner. I want ribs. I don't need ribs. But yah. I like ribs.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> I don't pay attention to what section I'm looking at. I just look at New Posts, and contribute to any I find interesting. Since there are no rules limiting where I can post, I'll do whatever I want, within the site rules.


Jerk.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> My opinion comes from observations of people who have cheated on their spouses and from people who I've known in 'open marriages.' There seems to be something more at play, than 'we have a great marriage and we just like swinging.' They don't seem all that content in their relationships.
> 
> I'm not judging swinging as good or bad, I'm observing it as a dangerous thing to enter into if you're married, and that people should not think all non-swingers are closed minded people who just can't grasp how freeing and awesome swinging is. I'll admit, I don't get the appeal of sleeping with people outside of ones marriage or relationship, and taking chances with your own safety and health in order to do that.
> 
> And if you have kids who are old enough to understand things...do swinging couples lie to them or tell them straight up that they're swingers? If they're lying to their kids or not being straight with them, then that should tell them what they're doing isn't healthy.


They're not but I've also found swingers to be fiercely loyal to defending their choice no matter what. The only time I've seen a swinger debunk the lifestyle is when the marriage ends. I'm like this. If people want to get some on the side and each partner is ok with it then so be it. With that said, however, I will say that if they were enough for each other they wouldn't feel that need to get some on the side. That's a fact. For the same reasons cheaters cheat, swingers swing. Swing away, I couldn't care less.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> My opinion comes from observations of people who have cheated on their spouses and from people who I've known in 'open marriages.' There seems to be something more at play, than 'we have a great marriage and we just like swinging.' They don't seem all that content in their relationships.


For the record, swinging and open are two different things. Learn the vernacular.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

LucasJackson said:


> They're not but I've also found swingers to be fiercely loyal to defending their choice no matter what. The only time I've seen a swinger debunk the lifestyle is when the marriage ends. I'm like this. If people want to get some on the side and each partner is ok with it then so be it. With that said, however, I will say that if they were enough for each other they wouldn't feel that need to get some on the side. That's a fact. For the same reasons cheaters cheat, swingers swing. Swing away, I couldn't care less.


Exactly. The thing is, many people cheat or want to sleep with others, because something is missing in them. It may have nothing to do with the marriage at all. I think some people just get married because they think it's the right next step. And then they realize...they're not the marrying kind. We have a society that puts a lot of pressure on people getting married, which is why the divorce rate is what it is. 



NobodySpecial said:


> For the record, swinging and open are two different things. Learn the vernacular.


Nah, I don't need to ''learn'' anymore about it, thanks.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> Exactly. The thing is, many people cheat or want to sleep with others, because something is missing in them. It may have nothing to do with the marriage at all. I think some people just get married because they think it's the right next step. And then they realize...they're not the marrying kind. We have a society that puts a lot of pressure on people getting married, which is why the divorce rate is what it is.
> 
> 
> 
> Nah, I don't need to ''learn'' anymore about it, thanks.


Ignorance is bliss, they say.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

What a fascinating discussion! I have no interest in swinging or sharing my wife, but I have zero problem with others doing it. I haven't personally seen it work, but as some on here have shown, it must work for many or it wouldn't be a "thing" at all.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

No one answered my question about what is told to the kids, if swingers have kids. If swingers have kids old enough to understand that mom and dad are going out for the night or away for the weekend, etc... what are the kids told?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)




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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

*Deidre* said:


> No one answered my question about what is told to the kids, if swingers have kids. If swingers have kids old enough to understand that mom and dad are going out for the night or away for the weekend, etc... what are the kids told?


My adult children to this day don't know anything specific about my sex life other than the fact that I have one. YMMV.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> No one answered my question about what is told to the kids, if swingers have kids. If swingers have kids old enough to understand that mom and dad are going out for the night or away for the weekend, etc... what are the kids told?


The kids don't know any more than the vague sense that Mom and Dad have a great sex life.... They know this as a result of what they hear in their home between the two of us. When we go out for the night, it is no different than any other parent going out for the night. Good night, loves! See you in the morning.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> My adult children to this day don't know anything specific about my sex life other than the fact that I have one. YMMV.


QFT. AFAIC knowing your parents love each other is not a bad thing.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


>


That made me laugh.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> No one answered my question about what is told to the kids, if swingers have kids. If swingers have kids old enough to understand that mom and dad are going out for the night or away for the weekend, etc... what are the kids told?


It's kept a secret, same as cheating. They're very similar if you list out all the characteristics. One is adultery, the other is agreed upon adultery. I do have to point out that if the swingers were so fulfilled, they wouldn't be here reading this right now. They'd have no need in their lives for such a site.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> It's kept a secret, same as cheating. They're very similar if you list out all the characteristics. One is adultery, the other is agreed upon adultery. I do have to point out that if the swingers were so fulfilled, they wouldn't be here reading this right now. They'd have no need in their lives for such a site.


Do my kids need to know about my sex life? Do yours?


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

I'm assuming that most kids don't think their parents are sleeping with people outside the marriage. Unless the parents are separated or going through a divorce, most kids wouldn't assume their parents are sleeping with others. In a 'happy household,' it would be a confusing thing for a kid to comprehend, so might be wise to not share it.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> I'm assuming that most kids don't think their parents are sleeping with people outside the marriage. Unless the parents are separated or going through a divorce, most kids wouldn't assume their parents are sleeping with others. In a 'happy household,' it would be a confusing thing for a kid to comprehend, so might be wise to not share it.


Most kids don't think about what their parents are doing. You don't know this since you don't have kids. They know that they are fed every day. They are loved every day. That's what they need.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Most kids don't think about what their parents are doing. You don't know this since you don't have kids. They know that they are fed every day. They are loved every day. That's what they need.


That's not what I've read on here, with people whose kids find out about their mother or father cheating - or leaving the relationship for another person. The kids seem pretty shocked and upset. Kids are more perceptive than they're given credit for, I think. (kids who are capable of understanding what's going on, I mean)


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Married but Happy said:


> That's it? A silly religious reference, a few irrelevant historical facts, irrational leaps of illogic, and a thinly veiled ad hominem attack? (And one that's so wildly off-target that I don't even want to reply in kind - you've shown your colors.)




Brrrhahahaha silly silly history. I'm glad to finally meet someone who doesn't believe in modern concepts like logic and instead clings to mysticism.

You are pretty delusional - I suggest you Google ad hominem - assuming you are suggesting that an attack on your "internet facts" represents a logical fallacy, which it clearly does not. Unless you just don't know what ad hominem means and what it represents, which i believe is the case here.

Anyway this blathering bores me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Anyway this blathering bores me.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Agreed. Your blathering bores me. :wink2:


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

*Swinging. What happens when the fun stops &amp; adultery steps in*

.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> Not sure what anyone is missing here but if you have a ''great'' marriage and ''great'' sex life, the desire to sleep with others simply wouldn't be there. Unless people view sex as like taking up tennis or something lol...and instead of taking tennis lessons, you go and sleep with random strangers. But, it's much more than that, thus the thread theme here. People weren't meant to be used as props to ''help'' their marriage get better, and to me, it's not different than infidelity, in the respect that you desire someone other than your spouse. Your spouse knowing that you want to sleep with others, doesn't change that. That's the truth. You can spin it however you like, to justify why you do it, and convince yourself that your marriage is ''great'' but if it was truly great, you wouldn't need to sleep with others. It's really that simple, IMO. If people want to sleep around, don't get married. Being married and sleeping around is a dangerous thing to do, no matter how anyone justifies it.


This was a really nice post Deidre, especially what I quoted here.

Ideally, I agree with you completely. And I suppose, in my heart of hearts, I so wish what you wrote above here was true.

But, it's my actual experience that most people don't really want to be monogamous. Not really, there are varying degrees of dishonesty and self-deception. Who amongst us can say that we never find anyone other than our spouse attractive? Probably not very many.

So all the other things creep in; porn, outside flirtations, checking out other people at work/grocery store/the beach . . . strip clubs, escorts, affairs.

Those things aren't all "the same"; of course not. But (to me) they occur on the same spectrum; "I wish I could fck people other than my partner"

Swinging is definitely not for me. I just think it is at the extreme end of the innate sexual disloyalty that ALL of us have in us to some extent. Most of us are monogamous for reasons of insecurity, and the need for emotional devotion to and from someone.

Swingers don't seem to need that emotional devotion to be exclusive to one person. Foreign to me; but if it works for them, at least I think they are commendable for their honesty.


I hope you don't lose your ideals, Deidre. Maybe you are much savvier about sexual reality than you seem. But, well suffice it to say, I hope as many of your dreams and ideals come true as possible.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

notmyrealname4 said:


> This was a really nice post Deidre, especially what I quoted here.
> 
> Ideally, I agree with you completely. And I suppose, in my heart of hearts, I so wish what you wrote above here was true.
> 
> ...


lol Thank you for this. 

I think the issue I have with it is that most of us have a hard time accepting that we can't have it all. It seems that people want to be married for certain reasons, but also don't want to give up their sex life with others, for other reasons. If your partner is cool with this, then it's okay, in your life. But, in my opinion, it would cheapen the marriage if I or my future husband would want to sleep with others, because it would just feel like we're still dating...not 'forsaking others' for one another, and our vows would seem so empty. Like it's just a piece of paper keeping us together as a married couple legally, but really...our behaviors would indicate that we are still interested in seeing other people. I look at actions not just words...so, that's just me. 

That said, I think marriage seems to be a lot of hard work, and it isn't for everyone. Not saying that people must marry, on the contrary, I think if you really want to keep sleeping around, it'd be better to not marry and just sleep with whomever your like. Not sure any of us are really monogamous by nature, there are a lot of temptations out there for sure. But, if you bother to get married to one person, and still sleep around, just seems like a lot of work to me, when you could have just remained single.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> The bonobo is the slvt of the primate world.
> 
> Wikipedia: Bonobo


Are they edible?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> Law is one thing. What people do in practice is another. Historically, men have often had mistresses, concubines, or other extra-marital relationships in western (and all other) culture, while doing their best to keep their wives under lock and key. Even many clergy had mistresses! One of those do as I say, not as I do <wink><wink> situations.


Most of these men you talk about were maybe 1% of the population and were generally patriarchal elites or royalty. They generally only had one actual wife and the rest of the women were concubines. They were not married in the strictest sense to these extra women. 

Most peons an commoners had only one wife. Even polygamous Mormon men only have one legal wife. 

So what are we talking about, marriage or polygamy?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> Are they edible?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They think Aids came from eating chimpanzees. Since they are cousins to chimpanzees I'd guess so.

Or are you thinking of bonbons?


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## happy2gether (Dec 6, 2015)

most of the time the kids are just told they are going to a party and be back on a certain date. There are a few that do give detail about what goes on, I don't agree with that but it is their kids. So long as I don't go in a place an see someone underage, because the first thing I will do is bring it up to the host. if he does nothing, I will leave and debate seriously my next move.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

happy2gether said:


> most of the time the kids are just told they are going to a party and be back on a certain date. There are a few that do give detail about what goes on, I don't agree with that but it is their kids. So long as I don't go in a place an see someone underage, because the first thing I will do is bring it up to the host. if he does nothing, I will leave and debate seriously my next move.


Be back on a certain date? As in leaving for several days?


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Do my kids need to know about my sex life? Do yours?


Sure they do. They knew that mom and I had sex with each other and when she went nuts and cheated, they knew that too. We don't believe in secrets. If you need to keep it a secret then you know it's wrong.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

LucasJackson said:


> Sure they do. They knew that mom and I had sex with each other and when she went nuts and cheated, they knew that too. We don't believe in secrets. If you need to keep it a secret then you know it's wrong.


:surprise: Tell me you don't tell your children the intimate details of your sex life, sexual activity and the sexual acts you do?

If you do tell them such things... :surprise::surprise::surprise:

If you don't tell them (you don't keep secrets because "you know it's wrong") you are evidently a hypocrite.

That said in this instance I really hope you're a hypocrite...


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Kids aren't stupid. They figure out around 10-12 what their parents are up to. They figure out that adults don't take naps mid afternoon Saturday... nor are they "sleeping in" on Sunday morning. Or that after dad returns from a business trip that he's not actually tired and wants to go to bed to sleep.

I also don't want to teach kids to be embarrassed or ashamed of sex. They lead to hangups and get in the way of a healthy sex life. Fun having sex is an important part of adult life fulfillment. I do want my kids to eventually live a fulfilling life.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

Personal said:


> :surprise: Tell me you don't tell your children the intimate details of your sex life, sexual activity and the sexual acts you do?
> 
> If you do tell them such things... :surprise::surprise::surprise:
> 
> ...


If mom and I were swingers and banging other people we'd tell them we were swingers and what that meant. If we couldn't or wouldn't tell them then that means we think there's something wrong with what we're doing. If the swinger really believes in swinging then they'd have no problem telling the kids. No need to describe specific acts. Suggesting that is just being glib.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

LucasJackson said:


> Personal said:
> 
> 
> > :surprise: Tell me you don't tell your children the intimate details of your sex life, sexual activity and the sexual acts you do?
> ...


Hypocrisy...


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

Personal said:


> Hypocrisy...


How so? I never said the swingers should go into specifics, only that they have marital relations with multiple people instead of just mommy and daddy. The same way someone like me would explain that mommy and I have sex because we love each other. They should explain that they have sex with a lot of people, and not just mommy or daddy. Where's the inconsistency or hypocrisy?


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

Over on SI there's a betrayed husband (wittold?) who received multiple videos via email of his wife at a swingers' party engaging in sexual acts. He surmised that some guy whom his wife didn't want to have sex with sent him those videos to get back at her. Why she thought pictures and videos of her at these parties wouldn't be taken by others is beyond me. Her children haven't been told that she had sex with many men at these parties; only that mom did something wrong. They're teenagers, so eventually they'll figure it out. When we have a puzzling, unresolved question on our mind, we usually won't stop thinking about it until we get an answer that makes sense. They will figure it out, that I can almost guarantee. They'll just have to get near the general vicinity of infidelity and things will begin to make sense.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

becareful2 said:


> Over on SI there's a betrayed husband (wittold?) who received multiple videos via email of his wife at a swingers' party engaging in sexual acts. He surmised that some guy whom his wife didn't want to have sex with sent him those videos to get back at her. Why she thought pictures and videos of her at these parties wouldn't be taken by others is beyond me. Her children haven't been told that she had sex with many men at these parties; only that mom did something wrong. They're teenagers, so eventually they'll figure it out. When we have a puzzling, unresolved question on our mind, we usually won't stop thinking about it until we get an answer that makes sense. They will figure it out, that I can almost guarantee. They'll just have to get near the general vicinity of infidelity and things will begin to make sense.


It kind of makes my point. If you can't/won't tell the kids, then you know it's wrong.


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

I actually believe swingers shouldn't have children. Period. When we bring children into the world, we should do right by them. Keeping them fed with a roof over their head is not enough. There's nothing honorable about that lifestyle. The discovery that their mom and dad are wh0res would just be too shameful for them to bear.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

becareful2 said:


> I actually believe swingers shouldn't have children. Period. When we bring children into the world, we should do right by them. Keeping them fed with a roof over their head is not enough. There's nothing honorable about that lifestyle. The discovery that their mom and dad are wh0res would just be too shameful for them to bear.


If they're honest with their kids, which they should be, then it really puts the kids at a big disadvantage to ever having healthy relationships in their lives. Not saying they can't but they'll have a big hill to climb.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

LucasJackson said:


> How so? I never said the swingers should go into specifics, only that they have marital relations with multiple people instead of just mommy and daddy. The same way someone like me would explain that mommy and I have sex because we love each other. They should explain that they have sex with a lot of people, and not just mommy or daddy. Where's the inconsistency or hypocrisy?


Well you proffered the following:



LucasJackson said:


> We don't believe in secrets. If you need to keep it a secret then you know it's wrong.


That being the case you evidently believe in not keeping any secrets, therefore you will share all honestly, without restriction, caveat or hesitation. To do anything else is actually hypocrisy.

If you instead asserted that you tend towards honesty except for the occasions when you think keeping secrets is appropriate there would be no hypocrisy involved at all.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

I don't agree with most of the assumptions about swingers in this thread. I guess I just don't think there should be any limits in what consenting adults do with one another in their bedrooms as long as they aren't hurting anyone. It's no one's business. 

For the record, I know two people whose parents are swingers. They didn't tell them when they were kids (why on earth would anyone do that). But they did tell them as adults. They are in their early 30s now. Neither is in the lifestyle, and it didn't change how they view their parents. They still love them.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

becareful2 said:


> Over on SI there's a betrayed husband (wittold?) who received multiple videos via email of his wife at a swingers' party engaging in sexual acts. He surmised that some guy whom his wife didn't want to have sex with sent him those videos to get back at her. Why she thought pictures and videos of her at these parties wouldn't be taken by others is beyond me. Her children haven't been told that she had sex with many men at these parties; only that mom did something wrong. They're teenagers, so eventually they'll figure it out. When we have a puzzling, unresolved question on our mind, we usually won't stop thinking about it until we get an answer that makes sense. They will figure it out, that I can almost guarantee. They'll just have to get near the general vicinity of infidelity and things will begin to make sense.


Because such activities were against the rules! 

Oh... but, wait... how, exactly would they enforce those rules after someone sent the husband those videos? :scratchhead:

Speak ill of them at the next meeting? :rofl:

They really are mad: To quote from Blackadder:



> ‘He’s mad. He’s mad! He’s madder than Mad Jack McMad, the winner of last year’s Mr Madman competition.’


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

Personal said:


> Well you proffered the following:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Since I'm being consistent with expectations of swingers and normal couples there is no hypocrisy. If I expected something different from one over the other then that would be hypocritical.

This is just an attempt, and not a very subtle one, to deflect from the dishonesty of these swingers. If they have nothing to hide, then they'd tell the kids, in an age appropriate way, about their lifestyle.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> Because such activities were against the rules!
> 
> Oh... but, wait... how, exactly would they enforce those rules after someone sent the husband those videos? :scratchhead:
> 
> ...


Having rules about screwing other people is like having rules about how you kill people in war. It's just silly. Once you open the marriage to screwing other people you can't get mad when one partner adds their interpretation of the screwing.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> How so? I never said the swingers should go into specifics, only that they have marital relations with multiple people instead of just mommy and daddy. The same way someone like me would explain that mommy and I have sex because we love each other. They should explain that they have sex with a lot of people, and not just mommy or daddy. Where's the inconsistency or hypocrisy?


Marital relations. I remember having plenty of "relations" before getting married.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Marital relations. I remember having plenty of "relations" before getting married.


Most people do. It's ok because they're single. Not ok once they're married.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> Most people do. It's ok because they're single. Not ok once they're married.


It is interesting to me that so many people have a fundamental problem with 2 people making different choices. My husband and I are incredibly happy together. Our kids are very well adjusted. That probably just torques people who are not happy.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> It is interesting to me that so many people have a fundamental problem with 2 people making different choices. My husband and I are incredibly happy together. Our kids are very well adjusted. That probably just torques people who are not happy.


Two questions:

1. Do you tell the kids what you do?

2. If so happy, why here?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> Two questions:
> 
> 1. Do you tell the kids what you do?


They know what they know. I don't agree with you that children need to be told everything and that represents wrongfulness. I did not tell them what DH and I did last night because it is none of their business. As a human person, I am aloud some privacy. But they are not stupid. 



> 2. If so happy, why here?


Where here? TAM? Mostly because I need to take breaks from work from time to time. And there are some cool people to talk to. Lots of angry, bitter people. But some cool people too. And I have actually been helpful to people in the past, according to the PMs.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> They know what they know. I don't agree with you that children need to be told everything and that represents wrongfulness. I did not tell them what DH and I did last night because it is none of their business. As a human person, I am aloud some privacy. But they are not stupid.
> 
> 
> 
> Where here? TAM? Mostly because I need to take breaks from work from time to time. And there are some cool people to talk to. Lots of angry, bitter people. But some cool people too. And I have actually been helpful to people in the past, according to the PMs.


But when you explain relationships to the kids, what do you tell them about marriage? About your marriage? About sex? Do you tell them that you and dad hook up with a lot of other people?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> But when you explain relationships to the kids, what do you tell them about marriage? About your marriage? About sex?


I tell them that sex is good and fun. I tell them that it can have emotional and physical dangers, and that being careful is important. I tell them about my marriage that I love their father. What the hell else would I tell them? 




> Do you tell them that you and dad hook up with a lot of other people?


No. I generally don't talk about the details of my sex life. They do know that I don't think sexual exclusivity is important. We have discussed that. They have heard me listen to and agree with Dan Savage. They know that I participated in a poly forum for a while. Interestingly, they don't care. Having not been raised by prudes, they are very not prudish.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> I tell them that sex is good and fun. I tell them that it can have emotional and physical dangers, and that being careful is important. I tell them about my marriage that I love their father. What the hell else would I tell them?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm glad you threw the "prudish" thing in there. So you think that people who practice monogamy are prudes? To be "cool" and not prudish you should sleep around? Do you have a daughter? Do you teach her that philosophy?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> I'm glad you threw the "prudish" thing in there. So you think that people who practice monogamy are prudes? To be "cool" and not prudish you should sleep around? Do you have a daughter? Do you teach her that philosophy?


I have a daughter. She is of an age where a lot of her classmates are interested in dating. She is not so much. She wants someone who is into HER, not just wanting to date a pretty girl. She is very pretty. I don't tell her whom to sleep with! But I certainly hope she has a fun and active, yet safe, sex life when she is ready. I don't teach her that virginity is a precious gift for some man. I can't because I think it is BS. Sex is sex.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Oh about the prude comment. I think people who criticize other people for having great sex lives are either prudes or just plain jealous.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LucasJackson said:


> But when you explain relationships to the kids, what do you tell them about marriage? About your marriage? About sex? Do you tell them that you and dad hook up with a lot of other people?


Good lord, man.

My children are now adults. They were introduced to age appropriate discussions about sex and sexuality. They did not get a notorized book detailing to whom I lost my virginity, what sex acts I engage in with their mother, or that sometimes mom and dad get a little freaky in the swimming pool on a hot summer's night.

I am ashamed of none of this. I don't tell them because IT'S NONE OF THEIR ****ING BUSINESS.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

Cletus said:


> Good lord, man.
> 
> My children are now adults. They were introduced to age appropriate discussions about sex and sexuality. They did not get a notorized book detailing to whom I lost my virginity, what sex acts I engage in with their mother, or that sometimes mom and dad get a little freaky in the swimming pool on a hot summer's night.
> 
> I am ashamed of none of this. I don't tell them because IT'S NONE OF THEIR ****ING BUSINESS.


But you explained marriage, sex, relationships to them. At least if you were doing your job as a parent you did. What did you tell them about your chosen lifestyle? Did you keep it a secret?


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Oh about the prude comment. I think people who criticize other people for having great sex lives are either prudes or just plain jealous.


I had a "great" sex life like that in the 80's when I was playing guitar in a hair metal band. Groupies were awesome. At some point, however, I became disgusted with myself. Sex without love is so shallow and demeans and a truly meaningful relationship.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> I have a daughter. She is of an age where a lot of her classmates are interested in dating. She is not so much. She wants someone who is into HER, not just wanting to date a pretty girl. She is very pretty. I don't tell her whom to sleep with! But I certainly hope she has a fun and active, yet safe, sex life when she is ready. I don't teach her that virginity is a precious gift for some man. I can't because I think it is BS. Sex is sex.


Does your daughter know that you sleep with multiple men besides her father? Do you keep your lifestyle a secret from her?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> Does your daughter know that you sleep with multiple men besides her father? Do you keep your lifestyle a secret from her?


I neither keep it secret nor tell her about it. That would be fairly creepy, talking about my sex life with my 12 year old. She does know that neither Dad nor I value traditional marriage the way other people do and that for us love is the key, not some promise made 23 years ago on a hot day in August.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> I neither keep it secret nor tell her about it. That would be fairly creepy, talking about my sex life with my 12 year old. She does know that neither Dad nor I value traditional marriage the way other people do and that for us love is the key, not some promise made 23 years ago on a hot day in August.


Well, you guys don't really have any kind of promise or vows. Marriage itself doesn't really mean anything. He can nail whomever he wants whenever he wants. Odds are one of them is going to touch his heart. Maybe already has multiple times. You wouldn't know unless he confesses. Still, parents have these talks with children and explain relationships, sex, marriage, etc. I'm glad you said it would be "fairly creepy" to tell her that you're swingers. I think we're starting to get some truth now.


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## happy2gether (Dec 6, 2015)

When our kids are old enough, we won't have a problem telling them that we swing. But a 12 year old does not need that kind of detail. She will be confused enough about sex the next few years. While I certainly hope she waits until she is mentally able to handle it and to do it safely, I also know her first time will come at too young an age and she will get her heart broke. Most certainly she will get a reputation in school as a bad girl and be picked on, EVEN if she never does have any type of sexual contact. It is a part of jr high/high school. It just happened to one of her friends last week, another started drama and now has everyone thinking this girl is pregnant, when she is in fact still a virgin. My wife had a long talk with the girls and explained that at their age they can't mentally handle it well, so to try and abstain but if something does happen to make sure they are safe. 

So no at this point I don't want her even thinking about how it must be ok since we do it, but once she gets older and has skin thick enough to shake off the remarks of folks such as some on here, then it will be choice and we will be fine with it. We will most certainly not give graphic details to our kids, but a good general talk so they are informed of real world ramifications will take place at some point.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> Well, you guys don't really have any kind of promise or vows.


Yes we do. We continually promise to love each other. To love our kids. To grow old together.



> Marriage itself doesn't really mean anything.


Interesting. Marriage is sex to you? THAT is what marriage means? Our marriage means a whole lot more than that to us!



> He can nail whomever he wants whenever he wants. Odds are one of them is going to touch his heart. Maybe already has multiple times.


Yup. It has happened. We're good with it.



> You wouldn't know unless he confesses.


Confesses?!! He has no need to hide it.



> Still, parents have these talks with children and explain relationships, sex, marriage, etc. I'm glad you said it would be "fairly creepy" to tell her that you're swingers. I think we're starting to get some truth now.


No I said it would be fairly creepy to discuss MY sex life with my 12 year old.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LucasJackson said:


> But you explained marriage, sex, relationships to them. At least if you were doing your job as a parent you did. What did you tell them about your chosen lifestyle? Did you keep it a secret?


I'm not a swinger. I never told them about my 'chosen lifestyle', whatever that means. I did tell them to ensure that they are sexually compatible with a partner before pulling the trigger on marriage - but without telling them exactly why I know it's so important. You're talking to someone who was a very early adopter of the fight for same sex marriage. I'm not against polyamory if all of the interested parties are willing adults.

Today, if I recommend anything about sexuality to my children at all, which is rare, it's to listen to the Savage Love podcast. There they can hear all manner of good advice on how to navigate the minefield that is human sexuality.


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## happy2gether (Dec 6, 2015)

oh and as to the question of if I meant leaving for several days, couples go on cruises or road trips all the time. Not necessarily TO swing, but then again it is not out of the question either. Many folks take a long weekend to drive or fly several hours away to attend parties/events, they leave the kids with grand parents or who ever watches them. No need to say we are going out of town to party, just we are taking a trip together.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Yes we do. We continually promise to love each other. To love our kids. To grow old together.
> 
> 
> Interesting. Marriage is sex to you? THAT is what marriage means? Our marriage means a whole lot more than that to us!
> ...


So he has fallen for other women he's met through swinging and you're ok with it, yet here you are spending significant time at a "coping with infidelity" support site. That's telling. Before I was coping with it myself, I never knew this place existed and if I did wouldn't have bothered visiting. No need for it.

Actually, it seems your marriage means a whole lot less to you. Now you've admitted he has had relationships with other women as well as just sex. At this point, what's the point in being married at all?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> So he has fallen for other women he's met through swinging and you're ok with it, yet here you are spending significant time at a "coping with infidelity" support site.
> 
> That's telling. Before I was coping with it myself, I never knew this place existed and if I did wouldn't have bothered visiting. No need for it.


I am not the one who posted this topic to this subforum. You do know that new topics show up in the right hand side of the forum's main page, right?

Suffice it to say that I am not you. I am not sure what you are being "told" about my posting. You certainly don't seem interested in the opinion of someone who has actual experience. But that is not all that unusual.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> I am not the one who posted this topic to this subforum. You do know that new topics show up in the right hand side of the forum's main page, right?
> 
> Suffice it to say that I am not you. I am not sure what you are being "told" about my posting. You certainly don't seem interested in the opinion of someone who has actual experience. But that is not all that unusual.


I'm only reading and discussing what you're saying in this particular thread. So far you've said you hide your lifestyle from the kids, your hubby has fallen for other women that he has nailed, and you're fine with it. I guess the point is, what's the point of being married at all? Now we've learned that even his love is not exclusive to you. You have created for him a cheater's paradise. He can have sex with whomever he wants and even have feelings for whomever he wants and you're fine with it. In your words, not mine. I'm not judging one way or the other. If it works for you that's cool. 

I just question are you really being honest with yourself about it actually being fine with you? I mean, he's sharing love and intimacy with others. He saves nothing for you exclusively. If you're fine with that then I'm happy for you but honestly if that was the case, I don't think you'd be here right now. Healthy people don't spend time on "coping with infidelity" boards. If I wasn't still working through some stuff I wouldn't be here and when I'm done working through some stuff I'll no longer be here. I won't need it.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LucasJackson said:


> Actually, it seems your marriage means a whole lot less to you. Now you've admitted he has had relationships with other women as well as just sex. At this point, what's the point in being married at all?


What's it to you? 

No, really. Why do you feel it's your duty, or obligation, or even just a way of passing time to tell others here to abandon their sham of a marriage, by your estimation?

Why are some people so damned inclined to tell others what to do with their lives? They have a marriage that works for them. You have neither the authority nor the right to negate their reality. 

I've listened to these same basic arguments against gay marriage for almost 30 years now. It's always the same - "I cannot understand how you find happiness or meaning in this situation, and I therefore feel compelled to deny its existence." It is insufferable arrogance.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

Cletus said:


> What's it to you?
> 
> No, really. Why do you feel it's your duty, or obligation, or even just a way of passing time to tell others here to abandon their sham of a marriage, by your estimation?
> 
> ...


It's a discussion board and I'm discussing the topic of the thread. I didn't make any suggestions of course of action, I just asked questions. As for your quotes, those are your own, nobody else said anything that you've quoted. You just misread through lack of comprehension of what was actually written.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

happy2gether said:


> oh and as to the question of if I meant leaving for several days, couples go on cruises or road trips all the time. Not necessarily TO swing, but then again it is not out of the question either. Many folks take a long weekend to drive or fly several hours away to attend parties/events, they leave the kids with grand parents or who ever watches them. No need to say we are going out of town to party, just we are taking a trip together.


Do they know about your alternative definition of marriage? Is it a secret?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> I'm only reading and discussing what you're saying in this particular thread. So far you've said you hide your lifestyle from the kids, your hubby has fallen for other women that he has nailed, and you're fine with it. I guess the point is, what's the point of being married at all?


I have said this a number of times. Love. Love is the point. 



> Now we've learned that even his love is not exclusive to you.


That is the entire point. Exclusivity is not required for love to exist for some people, including us. 



> You have created for him a cheater's paradise. He can have sex with whomever he wants and even have feelings for whomever he wants and you're fine with it.


It does not really work exactly like that. But yes, there is no reason for him to lie about his feelings. Nor is there any reason for me to lie. Guess what? He is not some crazy sex crazed monkey. He is a loving man.





> In your words, not mine. I'm not judging one way or the other. If it works for you that's cool.
> 
> I just question are you really being honest with yourself about it actually being fine with you?


Here we go again. 



> I mean, he's sharing love and intimacy with others. He saves nothing for you exclusively. If you're fine with that then I'm happy for you but honestly if that was the case, I don't think you'd be here right now. Healthy people don't spend time on "coping with infidelity" boards.


I tend to reply to this topic because it is one that interests me. It is one that I know something about. 



> If I wasn't still working through some stuff I wouldn't be here and when I'm done working through some stuff I'll no longer be here. I won't need it.


Good for you! I don't have a lot of work to do today. No one is posting much on the parenting board I sometimes frequent. Gotta entertain myself.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> What's it to you?
> 
> No, really. Why do you feel it's your duty, or obligation, or even just a way of passing time to tell others here to abandon their sham of a marriage, by your estimation?
> 
> Why are some people so damned inclined to tell others what to do with their lives? They have a marriage that works for them. You have neither the authority nor the right to negate their reality.


Over the years I have heard it all. It is not really marriage... It is interesting to me that it most frequently comes from divorced or miserable people.



> I've listened to these same basic arguments against gay marriage for almost 30 years now. It's always the same - "I cannot understand how you find happiness or meaning in this situation, and I therefore feel compelled to deny its existence." It is insufferable arrogance.


Yup.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> I have said this a number of times. Love. Love is the point.
> 
> 
> That is the entire point. Exclusivity is not required for love to exist for some people, including us.
> ...


At first it was just about not being exclusive sexually. Now you've added love too. If he is seeking love elsewhere, is he not getting his needs fulfilled at home?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LucasJackson said:


> It's a discussion board and I'm discussing the topic of the thread. I didn't make any suggestions of course of action, I just asked questions. As for your quotes, those are your own, nobody else said anything that you've quoted. You just misread through lack of comprehension of what was actually written.


"At this point, what's the point in being married at all?"

is a rhetorical question, laden with considerable baggage, not an honest question of inquiry. I may not know precisely what you mean in asking it, but I'm on solid ground in assuming it isn't a request for genuine knowledge given the context of the rest of your posting. 

Don't play innocent and then expect to have it fly.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> At first it was just about not being exclusive sexually. Now you've added love too. If he is seeking love elsewhere, is he not getting his needs fulfilled at home?


You are making some assumptions with no evidence. Neither of us was seeking love. It happened. But we were clearly both open to it because neither of us view sexual or romantic exclusivity as defining our relationship. To love someone else does not affect his love for me or mine for him.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> I'm only reading and discussing what you're saying in this particular thread. So far you've said you hide your lifestyle from the kids,


I have actually never said that. Is English not your first language?


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

Cletus said:


> "At this point, what's the point in being married at all?"
> 
> is a rhetorical question, laden with considerable baggage, not an honest question of inquiry. I may not know precisely what you mean in asking it, but I'm on solid ground in assuming it isn't a request for genuine knowledge given the context of the rest of your posting.
> 
> Don't play innocent and then expect to have it fly.


Not rhetorical at all. Considering what marriage is, what's the point of being married if there's zero exclusivity on anything? That's a legitimate question.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> Not rhetorical at all. Considering what marriage is, what's the point of being married if there's zero exclusivity on anything? That's a legitimate question.


What is marriage? I am guessing I don't agree with your definition.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> You are making some assumptions with no evidence. Neither of us was seeking love. It happened. But we were clearly both open to it because neither of us view sexual or romantic exclusivity as defining our relationship. To love someone else does not affect his love for me or mine for him.


Now you're compartmentalizing. Cheaters do that. Saying your love is separate from the love he has for other women. That's literally exactly what most cheaters do almost word for word.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> Now you're compartmentalizing. Cheaters do that. Saying your love is separate from the love he has for other women. That's literally exactly what most cheaters do almost word for word.


Cheaters also lie.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> What is marriage? I am guessing I don't agree with your definition.


The agreement between two people to love, honor, and cherish each other. Forsaking all others.

If there is zero exclusivity between the partners, what's the point? That's not rhetorical, it's a legitimate question.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Cheaters also lie.


You never know who's lying. You or your hubby could be lying about a lot of things. Are you sure you're ok with him loving other women? Why would he need to do that?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> The agreement between two people to love, honor, and cherish each other. Forsaking all others.
> 
> If there is zero exclusivity between the partners, what's the point? That's not rhetorical, it's a legitimate question.


We just don't adopt the forsaking all others bit. I have told you the point repeatedly.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> We just don't adopt the forsaking all others bit. I have told you the point repeatedly.


I was on board with you when it was just sex. That's a physical act that can be separated from love, although it's not even 1/1000th as good without love. Then, however, there was a revelation that your husband loves other women too. That's a whole different story. That's when you have to question why bother being married at all? When he's in love with someone else, that's gotta hurt. It's human nature. That's a betrayal of his love for you even if you grin and bear it and tell him it's ok. How has he talked you into this fantasy world he's living?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> I was on board with you when it was just sex. That's a physical act that can be separated from love, although it's not even 1/1000th as good without love. Then, however, there was a revelation that your husband loves other women too.


Just one. 


> That's a whole different story. That's when you have to question why bother being married at all?


Apparently YOU have to question it. I don't. 




> When he's in love with someone else, that's gotta hurt.
> It's human nature. That's a betrayal of his love for you even if you grin and bear it and tell him it's ok. How has he talked you into this fantasy world he's living?


Why do you think HE talked ME into it? That's just weird. But if I were you, I would get a refund on your psych degree. It is obviously no good.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Just one.
> 
> Apparently YOU have to question it. I don't.
> 
> ...


I think he talked you into it because the whole thing is following a pattern and that pattern usually starts with a husband that wants other women and a wife that is afraid of losing her husband. Too many similarities to ignore. I mean honestly there is no better feeling in this world that being somebody's everything and they're your everything. That kind of love literally trumps all good feelings a human can have and transcends sex by leaps and bounds. That kind of love is so wonderful and special. I feel bad that you can't experience that in your relationship. You're not his everything. You're just one of his women. He loves another. I do feel bad for you about that. That's gotta hurt.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> I think he talked you into it because the whole thing is following a pattern and that pattern usually starts with a husband that wants other women and a wife that is afraid of losing her husband.


Nope.



> Too many similarities to ignore. I mean honestly there is no better feeling in this world that being somebody's everything and they're your everything.


How did that work out for you?




> That kind of love literally trumps all good feelings a human can have and transcends sex by leaps and bounds. That kind of love is so wonderful and special. I feel bad that you can't experience that in your relationship. You're not his everything. You're just one of his women. He loves another. I do feel bad for you about that. That's gotta hurt.


Nope.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Nope.
> 
> 
> How did that work out for you?
> ...


That kind of love worked out great. We had a long exclusive loving relationship. She developed some very bad emotional problems with aging and started engaging in self-destructive behavior and it cost her her marriage and family. That is a shame indeed, still I wouldn't trade all those wonderful years of being each other's everything for 10 lifetimes of being in a relationship where you're not your partner's everything. There's no point to that. Have you not ever experienced being someone's everything?


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)




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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> There's no point to that.


Do you think that if you keep repeating this it will become true?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> They think Aids came from eating chimpanzees. Since they are cousins to chimpanzees I'd guess so.
> 
> Or are you thinking of bonbons?


No, I just like to kill things.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

I may as well admit it. I'm one of these highly insecure, untrusting and selfish bastards who doesn't want another man banging my old lady even if swinging is fun. If I could clone my wife for the day and me and clone slip off to one of the meet-ups (or is it meat-ups) I probably wouldn't mind doing another guys wife while he did the clone.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Do you think that if you keep repeating this it will become true?



It is true. You've told us more and more as we go. Like cheaters do with TT. First you were like it's just sex. Sex is sex, it doesn't mean anything. First, that's like a 14 year old's view of sex. Still, if that's what you like then more power to you. Then you hit us with that he loves another woman. Wow. That's a lot for you to swallow. What if you made him pick and give up one of you? Who would it be? I guess it's safer for you to allow him to screw other women than to make him prove that you're his everything. You didn't answer my question. Have you ever been someone's everything and felt that kind of love?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> It is true. You've told us more and more as we go. Like cheaters do with TT. First you were like it's just sex. Sex is sex, it doesn't mean anything. First, that's like a 14 year old's view of sex. Still, if that's what you like then more power to you. Then you hit us with that he loves another woman. Wow. That's a lot for you to swallow. What if you made him pick and give up one of you? Who would it be? I guess it's safer for you to allow him to screw other women than to make him prove that you're his everything. You didn't answer my question. Have you ever been someone's everything and felt that kind of love?


Yeah I am guessing English is not your first language since you clearly did not understand what I said. Cheers.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Yeah I am guessing English is not your first language since you clearly did not understand what I said. Cheers.


You're deflecting away from answering that question and getting defensive. That's another thing I've wondered about swingers. Why are they so defensive about it? Seriously, have you ever felt that love where you're someone's everything? Right now you're not. Hubby loves another woman, or women. You said that.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> No, I just like to kill things.


One thing the crazy muslim countries get right, or wrong depending on your opinion, they let you kill adulterers.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> You're deflecting away from answering that question and getting defensive. That's another thing I've wondered about swingers. Why are they so defensive about it? Seriously, have you ever felt that love where you're someone's everything? Right now you're not. Hubby loves another woman, or women. You said that.


I don't feel the slightest bit defensive. There is precious little point in continuing to converse with you since you prefer to make stuff up rather than read what is written. Cheers.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't feel the slightest bit defensive. There is precious little point in continuing to converse with you since you prefer to make stuff up rather than read what is written. Cheers.


Everything I've said comes exactly from your own words. You're the one that admitted that your husband loves another woman. How do you feel about that? How did he explain it away when you found out? I'm 99% sure that when swinging first came up he said it was only sex, no love. Well, he went back on that one didn't he? I do sympathize with you. You're a betrayed spouse like so many of us here. That's why you're spending time on this particular section of the site. This is a safe place. It's ok to let your guard down and tell us how you feel about your husband loving another woman.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> Everything I've said comes exactly from your own words. You're the one that admitted that your husband loves another woman. How do you feel about that? How did he explain it away when you found out? I'm 99% sure that when swinging first came up he said it was only sex, no love. Well, he went back on that one didn't he? I do sympathize with you. You're a betrayed spouse like so many of us here. That's why you're spending time on this particular section of the site. This is a safe place. It's ok to let your guard down and tell us how you feel about your husband loving another woman.


lol. Somehow you managed to get it pretty much all wrong.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> lol. Somehow you managed to get it pretty much all wrong.


Only going by your own words. A lot earlier in the thread you said it was just about sex, nothing else. Then later admitted that love does happen and did happen. That was a change that came only after quite a few questions. Still, I notice you've yet to answer that one question that I keep posing.

Have you ever felt that love of being someone's everything?


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Ok new question. When does everyone get naked or does it depend on the event? I've imagined parties and meet and greet followed by pairing (or more) and drifting into separate areas as desired... and also all out sex parties. I've read about a variety of things.

What are your experiences? What do you prefer?

Also what triggers you to get aroused enough to want to have sex with people you don't know (assuming your partners aren't vetted over a period of time)?

Mind you I'm more clueless than most as I've never had a ONS and only had one partner for 30+ years. When I met my W I was a prowling teen and did act when I saw her and we connected so I get that part - it's just that I've never felt that desire with anyone after and can't really imagine it since I got what I wanted and needed. So I would be very interested in understanding how this works in your mind AFTER you already have the person you want.

Serious question; no judgement intended or implied.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

It varies wildly.


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

ReformedHubby said:


> I don't agree with most of the assumptions about swingers in this thread. I guess I just don't think there should be any limits in what consenting adults do with one another in their bedrooms as long as they aren't hurting anyone. It's no one's business.
> 
> For the record, I know two people whose parents are swingers. They didn't tell them when they were kids (why on earth would anyone do that). But they did tell them as adults. They are in their early 30s now. Neither is in the lifestyle, and it didn't change how they view their parents. They still love them.



The thing is, many swinging couples end up in divorce, so who gets hurt? The kids, in addition to the couples involved. There are articles online written by children of parents who divorced due to swinging, and it chronicled the turmoil they went through. This is not the victimless crime that many swingers think it is. If you could ask the now adult children of that couple if the discovery actually hurt them or damage their view of their parents, that would be very telling.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

becareful2 said:


> The thing is, many swinging couples end up in divorce, so who gets hurt? The kids, in addition to the couples involved. There are articles online written by children of parents who divorced due to swinging, and it chronicled the turmoil they went through. This is not the victimless crime that many swingers think it is. If you could ask the now adult children of that couple if the discovery actually hurt them or damage their view of their parents, that would be very telling.


Can you provide references for that? I can provide peer reviewed research that shows that swingers divorce at lower rates than monogamous couples, and - statistically - are as/or more happy and healthy in their relationships.

I can also give you lots of statistics about - supposedly - monogamous couples who divorce for many reasons, often including non-consensual infidelity. So, what's your point? People get divorced for many reasons, and swingers sometimes get divorced too. I think you're speculating based on a personal bias, but if you do have evidence, I would be interested in reviewing it.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> It varies wildly.




Ha ha no sh1t Sherlock! That's why I asked the question. What is going on and through your minds.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> Can you provide references for that? I can provide peer reviewed research that shows that swingers divorce at lower rates than monogamous couples, and - statistically - are as/or more happy and healthy in their relationships.
> 
> I can also give you lots of statistics about - supposedly - monogamous couples who divorce for many reasons, often including non-consensual infidelity. So, what's your point? People get divorced for many reasons, and swingers sometimes get divorced too. I think you're speculating based on a personal bias, but if you do have evidence, I would be interested in reviewing it.


Like I've said and like MJJEAN has said, when swingers get divorced, they usually file under irreconcilable differences, so even if they were once happily swinging and defend the lifestyle like you do now, their divorce will not reflect the destruction of their marriage due to the swinging lifestyle. I am not aware of any studies that accurately pinpoint how many couples divorce because of swinging. It's impossible as far as I can tell, unless they can get an honest survey of divorced couples and specifically ask them if their divorce was due to swinging.

You keep pushing your "peer reviewed" references, but do those studies do any follow-up on the happily swinging couples five years out, ten years out, to see if they have divorced due to swinging not working for them or due to other reasons? Just about every swinging couple you meet will put on a happy face. Who wouldn't? However, you also haven't been able to keep in touch with the hundreds of happy couples you've met along your journey, so who is to know if they're still swinging or not? You don't know the status of their marriages, right?

If you meet 100 happy swinging couples, and lost contact with 60 of those couples, you would still tell us that you've met 100 happy swinging couples. Even if 30 of the 60 couples whom you've lost contact with ended up in divorce court because swinging didn't work out for them, they'll still file their reason under irreconcilable differences, and their stat will get lost among the millions of other monogamous divorces. Those 30 couples will not report back to you or your swinging groups that they have decided to divorce because of the falllout from swinging, so the personal stats that you give us are highly questionable. That's all I'm saying. It doesn't really take a genius to figure that out.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Assuming you are correct @becareful2 about the difficulty of collecting statistics about the incidence of later divorce, you can't prove your assumption any better than I can. It could be equally true that - as seems supported by the studies I've seen - that swingers have a lower rate of divorce, simply because there is less infidelity. Why cheat when you can agree to have sex with others? Yes, if emotional attachments form, then it could result in problems. This occasionally happens, but from what I can glean, it happens a lot less often than with "monogamous" cheaters.

Anyway, without doing a lot of research I don't have time for, I will acknowledge that it may not be provable either way. However, the argument I gave above does make a lot of sense based on my own observations and experience, and what I do recall from various studies.

The following article isn't a peer-reviewed paper by any means, but does match my own observations:

Why Polyamorous Couples Divorce Less Than Monogamous Couples | Mike Hatcher | YourTango


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> Assuming you are correct @becareful2 about the difficulty of collecting statistics about the incidence of later divorce, you can't prove your assumption any better than I can.


On divorce filings, there's "infidelity" and "irreconcilable differences," but there is no option for "swinging". That's how I know my assumption is more likely to be true than yours. If 40 monogamous couples divorce and file it under irreconcilable differences, and 30 swinging couples divorce and file it under irreconcilable differences, all the public will see is that 70 couples divorced under ID. The divorce documents will not show who divorced due to swinging and who divorced for other reasons.



> It could be equally true that - as seems supported by the studies I've seen - that swingers have a lower rate of divorce, simply because there is less infidelity. Why cheat when you can agree to have sex with others? Yes, if emotional attachments form, then it could result in problems. This occasionally happens, but from what I can glean, it happens a lot less often than with "monogamous" cheaters.


If one swinging partner leaves their spouse to be with another swinging partner, wouldn't that be considered infidelity? You and about two members here defend swinging, while the rest are critical of it. The three of you offer your anecdotal evidence, while the rest offer their counter anecdotal evidence about the couples they once knew who were swingers but have since divorced. You actually don't know how many happily swinging couples you've met had divorced or not due to not keeping in touch. That puts you three in the minority as far as I can tell, and your anecdotal evidence less reliable.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

I would just assume less divorce among swingers and all the subsets of swingers. They can't do anything wrong. They can love their spouse, or not, and can sleep with whomever they want. They can love whomever they want. They literally don't follow any definition of marriage at all, therefore, it renders divorce kind of moot. No point in ending a union that doesn't really exist anyway. Just paperwork at that point. When they do divorce it's probably because one of them inevitably meets someone while they're out sleeping around that they actually do make a meaningful connection with so they realize what they've been missing, they toss their sham marriage and enter into something more real. Finding that connection I believe would be about the only viable reason to end an open/swinging/poly/whatever marriage. Divorce for normal couples can happen for a lot of reasons but they all come back to a violation of the marital agreement. Swingers/open/poly/whatever have no agreement to violate. You can't hold a spouse accountable for violating an agreement that doesn't exist.


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

Daughter upset with swinging parents

My Parents Are Swingers and It Makes Me Really Uncomfortable
Should I confront them, or go hide somewhere for the rest of my life?

Today, I was at a bar with my friends for my 19th birthday when I saw my dad grinding some chick that was not my mom. I confronted him and told him I was telling mom. He then pointed across the bar to my mom with another man. I just found out my parents are swingers. FML (fml stands for f0ck my life)

Tech savvy daughter believes her parents may have divorced due to swinging. source



Take My Wife, Please
I convinced her to bed another man, and now I'm insanely jealous.

Dear Prudence,
A few months ago, in order to spice up our sex lives, I persuaded my wife of four years to try swinging. I searched online and found an ordinary-looking couple I thought would suit us to begin with. We met, had dinner, went to a hotel, and swapped partners. I am a fit, fairly good-looking, well-endowed man. I was surprised and dismayed when the other man, who is older, somewhat overweight, and balding, undressed. He was way larger than me, and for two hours I had to watch him work my wife into multiple fits, screams, and moans. Since this experience (which we have not repeated), I haven't been able to look at my wife in the same way. I cannot get that night out of my mind. It's affecting my work and ability to be happy. Sometimes I feel I could just punch my wife in the face. I want a divorce. The few friends I have confided in about this say that I am being unfair, but I cannot see how I could possibly be content in my marriage ever again. Is there a way I can overcome this?

—Outgunned Husband

-----------------------------------------

You think that couple's marriage above will last?


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

Mum 'n Dad are secret swingers source

I can’t begin to tell you how shocked and disgusted I am.

Suddenly it feels as though my whole life has been a lie and a sham.

All those “uncles and aunties” who used to come to our house when I was little for my parents’ famous parties were obviously swingers too.

I used to think they were my friends when they were actually my parents’ lovers!

All the times I was given a packet of Smarties and sent off to bed early was because they all wanted to get their rocks off downstairs.

Then, later, when I was much more aware, no wonder I was always being packed off for sleepovers with my friends.

No wonder my mum and dad were so keen to sign me up to every school trip and youth club outing possible. I think I probably did more camping between the ages of 10 and 18 than Bear Grylls has done in his whole life.

As an older teen my parents even used to give me money so I could go off with my boyfriend for a dirty weekend.

My friends used to marvel at how generous and enlightened dear old ma and pa were.

If they knew that every time I was out of the house our home was turned into a “fun dungeon” or “sexy brothel” they probably wouldn’t be so impressed.

Me, I’m utterly shocked and disgusted. I’m no prude, but my parents are the most ordinary people you could ever imagine.

I would never have credited my mum with having a single sexy bone in her body. As for my dad, he makes Mr Bean look like James Bond.

I’m in my late 20s and I only know the truth now because my Nan has blabbed.

She and my mum have had a huge row because Nan wants to give up her flat and move into the family home. My mum has said “no” (for obvious reasons) and my Nan has gone nuclear.

Apparently she’s heard about the parties from my aunt and is out to make trouble. My Nan can be a bitter old girl – and I don’t approve of blackmail – but what she’s saying is true.

I’ve spoken to my mum. She’s admitted everything and the most shocking part of all is that she’s not sorry. She says that she is what she is and isn’t prepared to change or apologise for anything.

How can we ever have a normal relationship again?


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

LucasJackson said:


> One thing the crazy muslim countries get right, or wrong depending on your opinion, they let you kill adulterers.


They also blame rape victims and allow family to kill her. Not a great example / parallel.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> lol Thank you for this.
> 
> I think the issue I have with it is that most of us have a hard time accepting that we can't have it all. It seems that people want to be married for certain reasons, but also don't want to give up their sex life with others, for other reasons. If your partner is cool with this, then it's okay, in your life. But, in my opinion, it would cheapen the marriage if I or my future husband would want to sleep with others, because it would just feel like we're still dating...not 'forsaking others' for one another, and our vows would seem so empty. Like it's just a piece of paper keeping us together as a married couple legally, but really...our behaviors would indicate that we are still interested in seeing other people. I look at actions not just words...so, that's just me.
> 
> That said, I think marriage seems to be a lot of hard work, and it isn't for everyone. Not saying that people must marry, on the contrary, I think if you really want to keep sleeping around, it'd be better to not marry and just sleep with whomever your like. Not sure any of us are really monogamous by nature, there are a lot of temptations out there for sure. But, if you bother to get married to one person, and still sleep around, just seems like a lot of work to me, when you could have just remained single.


This is the way I started out. I thought my wife wanted all the things that I did, to love each other and spend our lives together forever. Then I realized that she didn't feel this way. When you know this is true, it hurts. She doesn't love or want me and I don't love or want her. Before I found this out we had kids and I basically felt I was trapped, I couldn't get out of the marriage unless I gave her basically all our savings and all the things I've worked all my life for. So, we're struck in and marriage that neither one of us want. Things I would never have thought about before I can now see why others have decided to give them a try. I sure beats living in a ****ty marriage. The fun stopped and that's really all that's left, all the garbage left on the side of the road. You can't have a normal relationship so have to use what's left to make life interesting. That's where I think swinging got it's birth.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

jb02157 said:


> This is the way I started out. I thought my wife wanted all the things that I did, to love each other and spend our lives together forever. Then I realized that she didn't feel this way. When you know this is true, it hurts. She doesn't love or want me and I don't love or want her. Before I found this out we had kids and I basically felt I was trapped, I couldn't get out of the marriage unless I gave her basically all our savings and all the things I've worked all my life for. So, we're struck in and marriage that neither one of us want. Things I would never have thought about before I can now see why others have decided to give them a try. I sure beats living in a ****ty marriage. The fun stopped and that's really all that's left, all the garbage left on the side of the road. You can't have a normal relationship so have to use what's left to make life interesting. That's where I think swinging got it's birth.


I have actually never met a single couple who approached it that way. YMMV.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

becareful2 said:


> *I convinced her* to bed another man, and now I'm insanely jealous.


Bad, bad, bad.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

larry.gray said:


> They also blame rape victims and allow family to kill her. Not a great example / parallel.


True. That's why I labeled them crazy muslim countries. They're a nutty bunch.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

jb02157 said:


> This is the way I started out. I thought my wife wanted all the things that I did, to love each other and spend our lives together forever. Then I realized that she didn't feel this way. When you know this is true, it hurts. She doesn't love or want me and I don't love or want her. Before I found this out we had kids and I basically felt I was trapped, I couldn't get out of the marriage unless I gave her basically all our savings and all the things I've worked all my life for. So, we're struck in and marriage that neither one of us want. Things I would never have thought about before I can now see why others have decided to give them a try. I sure beats living in a ****ty marriage. The fun stopped and that's really all that's left, all the garbage left on the side of the road. You can't have a normal relationship so have to use what's left to make life interesting. That's where I think swinging got it's birth.


If only sex with others could solve your problems, but it won't. Only you can solve your issues, and many people leave toxic marriages. You have to decide if living every day the way you are out weighs a better future for yourself and kids. Just keep thinking on it. ((hug))


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

This thread has taken quite a few twists and turns since I posted in here yesterday


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> This thread has taken quite a few twists and turns since I posted in here yesterday


A lot of truth has been pried out too. Nothing that surprised me.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

LucasJackson said:


> A lot of truth has been pried out too. Nothing that surprised me.


Oh really? lol I'll have to go back and read later. :nerd:


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Bad, bad, bad.




Both husband and wife seemed like pretty open-minded and enlightened to me. 

Nobody is entitled to happiness but they are entitled to the pursuit of that happiness. However, if the way they go about it is not anchored in integrity and honor, then regret would soon follow. Such is the case with that husband. He didn't honor his wife or his marriage vow. He thought swinging would make him happy. He now pays a terrible price for it in the form of mind movies.

There's nothing honorable about the swinging lifestyle, especially if the parents have kids. This is not a victimless crime as insinuated by swingers.


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

This article is entitled "Happily Married Swingers" but there's an interesting bit at the end:

sexual health expert, Hilda Hutcherson, M.D., is pretty open-minded... but this trend has her worried.

"If swinging isn't something a woman really wants to do, then she shouldn't," Hutcherson says. "It can lead to major resentment." Even when both partners are genuinely curious, it's crucial to set ground rules and protect each other against sexually transmitted diseases. "Just because someone is married doesn't mean they're safe. Even with condoms, you can be exposed to viruses like HPV and herpes," she says. HPV (human papillomavirus) can lead to cervical cancer, of course, but it's also linked to throat cancers—making oral sex riskier than most people think. *There are emotional risks too: "One of my patients got divorced after she saw her husband with someone else at a swingers party. She thought she could handle it, but she realized too late that she couldn't," Hutcherson says.*


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

If my parents were into that kind of thing, I think I'd be worried about three things:

Is my dad really my dad?
Did my mom swing while pregnant? That carries a extra level of risk of STD fetal damage that shows a level of calusness.
I hope she never kissed me goodnight after blowing a line of guys. Then again, once I learned what falatio was, I wouldn't let my mom kiss me.


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

Their new book, “A Modern Marriage,” is a chronicle of Christy and Mark’s lives as swingers: the group sex, the jealousy, the secrecy, the STDs and hygiene issues, the emotional and psychological dangers.

They’ve been married for 14 years, and swinging, they insist, has made their marriage that much stronger.

“This is a love story,” Christy says. “We’re normal. We have the same issues that other people do."

------------------------

Let me summarize the good points for you all, but you're welcome to read it here.

Mark and Christy hooked up with Mark's old high school buddy, Brett, and Brett's wife, Terri. Mark and Christy don't appear to have any children, but Brett and Terri does have an 8 year old daughter named Tiffany.

The two couples swapped spouses. Things started out well but soon emotional bonds are developed and jealousy reared it's ugly head. Terri wanted to leave her husband, Brett, to be with Mark. Brett became very jealous and dumped his feelings onto Christy, and Christy became jealous because Brett cared less about her than he does about his wife, Terri. Soon, Terri dumped both her husband and Mark. Brett and Terri got a divorce. Mark lost a good high school friend, but he and Christy continue to swing without a care in the world. 

Who suffered the most from these two selfish couples' acts? The 8 year old daughter, Tiffany, of course. She was so distraught, she called Mark and Christy constantly. She now has to grow up with divorced parents and a broken family thanks to dear old mom and pop. 

Mark and Christy's swinging lifestyle has destroyed one family, but they keep on keeping on.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

LucasJackson said:


> I was on board with you when it was just sex. That's a physical act that can be separated from love, although it's not even 1/1000th as good without love. Then, however, there was a revelation that your husband loves other women too. That's a whole different story. That's when you have to question why bother being married at all? When he's in love with someone else, that's gotta hurt. It's human nature. That's a betrayal of his love for you even if you grin and bear it and tell him it's ok. How has he talked you into this fantasy world he's living?




Those are good points; BUT, if I'm understanding @NobodySpecial correctly, she may have had loving feelings for other men too; or is open to it and so is her husband. Also, I didn't get the impression that she was "talked into it" by her husband????

I don't think NS is the poor, betrayed wifey, pressured into swinging, so her selfish, unloving husband can get all the tail he wants.

They both seem to want it and enjoy it. Not my cup of tea; but if they are all consenting, responsible adults; then it's their choice, their fun, and their consequences.


=======================================




VladDracul said:


> I may as well admit it. I'm one of these highly insecure, untrusting and selfish bastards who doesn't want another man banging my old lady even if swinging is fun. If I could clone my wife for the day and me and clone slip off to one of the meet-ups (or is it meat-ups)* I probably wouldn't mind doing another guys wife while he did the clone.*





becareful2 said:


> Dear Prudence,
> A few months ago, in order to spice up our sex lives,* I persuaded my wife *of four years to try swinging. I searched online and *found an ordinary-looking couple* I thought would suit us to begin with. We met, had dinner, went to a hotel, and swapped partners. I am a fit, fairly good-looking, well-endowed man. I was surprised and dismayed when the other man, who is older, somewhat overweight, and balding, undressed.* He was way larger than me, and for two hours I had to watch him work my wife into multiple fits, screams, and moans.* Since this experience (which we have not repeated),* I haven't been able to look at my wife in the same way.* I cannot get that night out of my mind. It's affecting my work and ability to be happy. *Sometimes I feel I could just punch my wife in the face. I want a divorce.* The few friends I have confided in about this say that I am being unfair, but I cannot see how I could possibly be content in my marriage ever again. Is there a way I can overcome this?
> 
> —Outgunned Husband



And again, evidence that a large number (I think majority, actually) of men would LOVE swinging; under certain circumstances:

1.) Their wife can only have sex with other women.

2.) Their wife can have sex with other men *IF* he has a noticeably smaller penis; and the sex she gets swinging is kind of a disappointment.

3.) Only a (presumably disposable) clone of their wife can have sex with another man. The real wife is allowed no such freedom; meanwhile hubby gets to "do" the real wife of any other man.


==================================

The guy in the "Dear Prudence", is basically a caricature of sexual selfishness:


1.) Pressure wife into swinging so *I* can fck other women openly; I can't be accused of cheating.

2.) Pick a couple where the guy is ostensibly unattractive, so there is no threat to his ego

3.) But, alas, he's hung like a horse!!! And wife gets a night like she's never known before.

4.) Hate wife and blame her for everything; to the point of wanting to inflict physical violence on her-----for something he pressu . . .sorry, "persuaded" her into doing in the first place.


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

notmyrealname4 said:


> And again, evidence that a large number (I think majority, actually) of men would LOVE swinging; under certain circumstances:


I don't think that's evidence of anything but greed and selfishness. He wanted his cake and eat it, too. I surmise that many men would not want to share their wives with anyone, be it men or women.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

becareful2 said:


> I don't think that's evidence of anything but greed and selfishness. He wanted his cake and eat it, too. I surmise that many men would not want to share their wives with anyone, be it men or women.


Or it might just as well be a reflection of the human condition. I surmise that many men who were able to get easy access to females for copulation would eschew marriage completely. 

Lots of men get married by and large because women want them to.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

becareful2 said:


> I don't think that's evidence of anything but greed and selfishness. He wanted his cake and eat it, too. I surmise that many men would not want to share their wives with anyone, be it men or women.


Yes, becareful. I agree. Most men don't want to share their wives with anyone.

The point here is that *they* would still like to have other women. Most men; not all men. Have no idea what the percentages would be; it's not quantifiable, is it?

Exceptions: the true cuckold and the man who is a swinger and is secure enough?/fair-minded enough?, to understand that if he gets to enjoy other women, she gets to enjoy other men.


Once again, this is all thoughts in a Petri dish to me. Just thinking it through and putting ideas out there; and hearing what others have to say. Swinging has no appeal to me.

I still tend to think it appeals less to women. BUT, I'm probably projecting my own bias onto that.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Those are good points; BUT, if I'm understanding @NobodySpecial correctly, she may have had loving feelings for other men too; or is open to it and so is her husband. Also, I didn't get the impression that she was "talked into it" by her husband????The first couple we ever met remain good friends to this day. We ventured from swinging to polyamory with a couple. And polyamory was not so much the problem as the man half was a narcissistic prick. Charming as all get out. But still a selfish tool.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I still tend to think it appeals less to women. BUT, I'm probably projecting my own bias onto that.


I tend to agree with this. I have read confessions by women who used to be part of the swinging lifestyle who have since stopped. They now speak out to warn husbands to not tempt their wives by opening up their marriage, because the fallout could be devastating.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Cheaters also lie.



And swingers live a lie.

I would never trust a swinger.

I would encourage anyone that knows swingers in real life to NOT mind your own business and expose them just like we encourage everyone to expose waywards on this forum.

Maybe a little shame will help them understand that what they are doing is licentious and depraved and, after having a mirror held up and shone up such behavior, they'll stop it. 

All it takes is some consequences and friends, family, neighbors, co-workers that truly care about their fellow man.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

becareful2 said:


> Like I've said and like MJJEAN has said, when swingers get divorced, they usually file under irreconcilable differences, so even if they were once happily swinging and defend the lifestyle like you do now, their divorce will not reflect the destruction of their marriage due to the swinging lifestyle. I am not aware of any studies that accurately pinpoint how many couples divorce because of swinging. It's impossible as far as I can tell, unless they can get an honest survey of divorced couples and specifically ask them if their divorce was due to swinging.
> 
> You keep pushing your "peer reviewed" references, but do those studies do any follow-up on the happily swinging couples five years out, ten years out, to see if they have divorced due to swinging not working for them or due to other reasons? Just about every swinging couple you meet will put on a happy face. Who wouldn't? However, you also haven't been able to keep in touch with the hundreds of happy couples you've met along your journey, so who is to know if they're still swinging or not? You don't know the status of their marriages, right?
> 
> If you meet 100 happy swinging couples, and lost contact with 60 of those couples, you would still tell us that you've met 100 happy swinging couples. Even if 30 of the 60 couples whom you've lost contact with ended up in divorce court because swinging didn't work out for them, they'll still file their reason under irreconcilable differences, and their stat will get lost among the millions of other monogamous divorces. Those 30 couples will not report back to you or your swinging groups that they have decided to divorce because of the falllout from swinging, so the personal stats that you give us are highly questionable. That's all I'm saying. It doesn't really take a genius to figure that out.



Almost all the "peer reviewed" material out there involves questionnaires and interviews with currently swinging individuals. Of course they like it. Imagine how happy and loving full blown waywards could make their affair relationships sound if given such questions. How about asking drunks in a bar whether they are happy and feel fulfilled. It's self-justifying bs designed to rationalize the behavior AND provide an argument that ~~~ well, sure our research is a little nebulous but you can't prove your premise either. 

Doesn't take a whole lot of discernment to understand swinging is not a safe, rewarding, healthy, consequence free lifestyle. It might be "great" once, twice or dozens of times but the consequence train is coming.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

LucasJackson said:


> One thing the crazy muslim countries get right, or wrong depending on your opinion, they let you kill adulterers.


Do you want to kill NobodySpecial or have her killed for adultery? Do you want to kill all people who have sex outside of marriage (which technically includes sex before marriage) or have them killed for adultery?


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

Personal said:


> Do you want to kill NobodySpecial or have her killed for adultery? Do you want to kill all people who have sex outside of marriage (which technically includes sex before marriage) or have them killed for adultery?


No, I'm not a crazy muslim. When they do it, I'm sure a lot of BS's can see where they're coming from.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Since somebody brought up Dear Prudence maybe some of the female swingers can answer the age old question that has been ask and answered time and time again. Does size matter? Let here it from those that's in the trenches.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Quality said:


> And swingers live a lie.
> 
> 
> I would encourage anyone that knows swingers in real life to NOT mind your own business and expose them just like we encourage everyone to expose waywards on this forum.


Should you do that IRL, I would sincerely hope that the subsequent harassment litigation would make it a one-time trip down morality Schutzstaffel lane.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Cletus said:


> Should you do that IRL, I would sincerely hope that the subsequent harassment litigation would make it a one-time trip down morality Schutzstaffel lane.


What you call harassment, I call free speech. I think as long as what I'm saying (and all I'm doing is saying it ~~ no threats or chasing the people around) is true, it's protected speech. I could picket the sidewalk in front of my neighbors house with signs saying "Guard your spouse ~ swingers live here" and from my understanding there is little that can be done as long as I don't step foot on the private property. I know this because I've picketed the workplaces of several cheaters when companies refuse to take action against cheating co-workers or, once, the company was owned by the other man.

Besides, I have yet to hear about a single wayward (including swingers) take a witness stand in open court to defend their lifestyle. They sure love to threaten lawsuits ~ but they either can't find an attorney to take their worthless case or they don't want to buck up a $10,000 retainer. I just don't think it's harassment anyway.

Though, anyone can sue anyone for anything so it's always a good thing to have a best friend bulldog attorney in your back pocket. Maybe I should even set up an exposure public service charity and as one of the board of directors, I could have very limited personal liability.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Quality said:


> I would encourage anyone that knows swingers in real life to NOT mind your own business and expose them just like we encourage everyone to expose waywards on this forum.
> 
> Maybe a little shame will help them understand that what they are doing is licentious and depraved and, after having a mirror held up and shone up such behavior, they'll stop it.
> 
> All it takes is some consequences and friends, family, neighbors, co-workers that truly care about their fellow man.



IIRC you are coming from a Christian perspective???

So, "let him without sin, cast the first stone"

If I'm mistaken about that, and you feel that swinging is a moral offense that should be illegal--you may run into people taking revenge on you for messing with their private lives.

If you feel strongly, attempt to initiate legislation that bans swinging. I believe in the U.S., you are allowed to collect signatures for local ballot initiatives.

Of course you will face opposition, most notably from the ACLU. But you may get support from some religious groups too.

But don't you think you'd be better off improving the world by using that energy to help people that would really appreciate your efforts. So many causes and so forth that could use a donation or the gift of your extra time.

Hand out sandwiches to homeless people. Donate money to St.Judes Children's Hospital. Adopt a shelter pet.

And don't practice swinging, or have anything to do with swinging yourself. That's what I do. So far, no-one has ever attempted to force me to swing. If anyone ever does, believe me, I'll make a stink about it.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Quality said:


> I know this because I've picketed the workplaces of several cheaters when companies refuse to take action against cheating co-workers or, once, the company was owned by the other man.


:surprise: :| :smile2: :grin2:...... :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Personal said:


> :surprise: :| :smile2: :grin2:...... :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


I hope he's not in the United States. A lot of people own guns here. Pull that trick with the wrong person and they might just make you disappear.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Personal said:


> Do you want to kill NobodySpecial or have her killed for adultery? Do you want to kill all people who have sex outside of marriage (which technically includes sex before marriage) or have them killed for adultery?


I am kind of blown away by the hate on this thread. People with no idea what they are talking about speculating out their butts then deciding that their speculations are real. MBH and I are sharing how it can be from our actual experience. But NO! It can't be like that because we don't understand it. Things we don't understand are scary. And scary is bad. The language is so similar to the anti-gay hate of less than a generation ago. Baffling.

When marriage is besieged by cheating, those of us who can look at our spouses and recognize that sexual exclusivity is not the be all of the world and accept that are somehow seen as deviant. That we can be fully honest with each other, endearing real intimacy, is seen as broken. When I am 90, I will still be happily married to a great man. I am good with that.

I am not sure by what authority anyone would seek to kill me. They would be killing someone with a lot of charity and kindness. Will they kill my husband too?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

VladDracul said:


> Since somebody brought up Dear Prudence maybe some of the female swingers can answer the age old question that has been ask and answered time and time again. Does size matter? Let here it from those that's in the trenches.


No. Size does not matter. I have actually spoken to this several times. The brain remains the biggest and most important sex organ. And other women don't even have a penis! And they can be pretty special too.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

@Quality, are you also a gay-basher?

Your idea may be free speech and even truthful, but you would be doing so maliciously with intent to harm someone who has not harmed you, and has actually harmed no one. Swinging is consensual, and (with rare bad actors who I wouldn't care about if they were exposed) do not push non-swingers into participating, or attempt to entice a married person to cheat. Your free speech could easily provoke a malicious response against you or your family, and frankly, I think that would be understandable even if regrettable.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> I am kind of blown away by the hate on this thread. People with no idea what they are talking about speculating out their butts then deciding that their speculations are real. MBH and I are sharing how it can be from our actual experience. But NO! It can't be like that because we don't understand it. Things we don't understand are scary. And scary is bad. The language is so similar to the anti-gay hate of less than a generation ago. Baffling.
> 
> When marriage is besieged by cheating, those of us who can look at our spouses and recognize that sexual exclusivity is not the be all of the world and accept that are somehow seen as deviant. That we can be fully honest with each other, endearing real intimacy, is seen as broken. When I am 90, I will still be happily married to a great man. I am good with that.
> 
> I am not sure by what authority anyone would seek to kill me. They would be killing someone with a lot of charity and kindness. Will they kill my husband too?


Yet, admittedly, you'll never be his everything. You'll never know that feeling. That's a sad existence.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

I don't agree. Even when we were OPEN marriage, my wife was my everything. I never cheated her out of my heart or my attraction for her. Any woman I meant (casual or with sexual interests) would have me talk about my wife and "meet her".

She didn't handle it well... and ended up cheating and too afraid to talk about her feelings or concerns. On to of that, she was drinking everyday - far more than I knew. My family core is most important.

Each their own, what works for them - may not work for you.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

TaDor said:


> I don't agree. Even when we were OPEN marriage, my wife was my everything. I never cheated her out of my heart or my attraction for her. Any woman I meant (casual or with sexual interests) would have me talk about my wife and "meet her".
> 
> She didn't handle it well... and ended up cheating and too afraid to talk about her feelings or concerns. On to of that, she was drinking everyday - far more than I knew. My family core is most important.
> 
> Each their own, what works for them - may not work for you.


It's funny that the second part of your story invalidates the first part. Your wife was not your everything and she realized that. Still, my point was to the other poster who admitted that along with swinging, her husband was also in love with another woman.

That love that only two people can share exclusively, where they are each other's everything, that is the most special feeling of love of them all. If you have experienced it we wouldn't be debating it. I've known both. The multiple partner thing and the exclusive "you're my everything" love. I'll tell you this. I'd rather experience 5 minutes of the "everything" love over a lifetime of the other. There is no comparison of quantity over quality. If we share our hearts or our bodies with others, then the "everything" love is not achievable.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LucasJackson said:


> Yet, admittedly, you'll never be his everything. You'll never know that feeling. That's a sad existence.


More "just asking questions", I see.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

Cletus said:


> More "just asking questions", I see.


I never claimed that was a question. I've been on both sides of this equation. My opinion is as valid as anyone else's. Have you every been someone's everything and they yours? <<==See? That is a question. They're usually qualified by a question mark '?' at the end of the sentence. When I ask a question, I end the question with a question mark to identify it as a question. Don't you?


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

That is your opinion. But I said, SHE was my everything... so no, I didn't invalidate myself. I know exactly how I thought about he before the A.

I think that open relationships is not for everyone. And I don't see myself wanting it with my WW. But a good chunk of the human population all over the world are poly/swingers and they do just fine.

Okay, I'll throw this at you... about the ability to only love one person.

Children.

If you have 2 or even 4 whatever kids. Do you only love just one kid? or one kid at a time? Or do you love all of them, as individuals for who they are?


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Quality said:


> Besides, I have yet to hear about a single wayward (including swingers) take a witness stand in open court to defend their lifestyle. They sure love to threaten lawsuits ~ but they either can't find an attorney to take their worthless case or they don't want to buck up a $10,000 retainer. I just don't think it's harassment anyway.


You haven't heard of it because most people mind their own business. Swingers aren't being hunted down as criminals. If they were I am sure they would defend themselves and their rights. IMO, the treatment you are applying to swingers should really only be reserved for pedophiles.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> More "just asking questions", I see.


I can't see his supposed questions. He clearly has no interest in DIalog. His monologue is good enough for him.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

TaDor said:


> That is your opinion. But I said, SHE was my everything... so no, I didn't invalidate myself. I know exactly how I thought about he before the A.


Certainly when we were first together, we were each other's everything. But over the years we can to the conclusion that exclusivity is not necessary to love the crap out of each other. It is not a sad existence. I am cherished, loved, cared for every single day.




> I think that open relationships is not for everyone.


I sometimes wonder if open relationships are more dangerous than swinging. 



> And I don't see myself wanting it with my WW. But a good chunk of the human population all over the world are poly/swingers and they do just fine.
> 
> Okay, I'll throw this at you... about the ability to only love one person.
> 
> ...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

notmyrealname4 said:


> IIRC you are coming from a Christian perspective???



If by Christian you mean following in Christ's loving example, we would clearly have to conclude no. If by Christian you mean using religion as an excuse to mind what other people are doing in their bedroom, then I would say yes.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

​


NobodySpecial said:


> I can't see his supposed questions. He clearly has no interest in DIalog. His monologue is good enough for him.


You and I had a very interesting dialogue...or so I thought. I expected more from you than a post like this. When I had a question, I asked. That's a typical pattern of discussion. Still, an attack post like this I figured was well within Cletus's scope as a person, but not yours. Was I wrong about you?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I can't see his supposed questions. He clearly has no interest in DIalog. His monologue is good enough for him.


Having an opinion is one thing. Covering it with intellectual dishonesty sauce makes it particularly unappetizing.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

TaDor said:


> That is your opinion. But I said, SHE was my everything... so no, I didn't invalidate myself. I know exactly how I thought about he before the A.
> 
> I think that open relationships is not for everyone. And I don't see myself wanting it with my WW. But a good chunk of the human population all over the world are poly/swingers and they do just fine.
> 
> ...


If you have romantic relations with other women, or men, then she is not your everything. The love of parent to children can't be compared to romantic love. That's gross and illegal in most places.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

ReformedHubby said:


> You haven't heard of it because most people mind their own business. Swingers aren't being hunted down as criminals. If they were I am sure they would defend themselves and their rights. IMO, the treatment you are applying to swingers should really only be reserved for pedophiles.


Wayward spouses aren't criminals or pedophiles either and we recommend exposing them to public scrutiny. What's the difference?

I'm not hunting them down either. I'm just suggesting searching publicly disclosed available lists of swingers that live in my vicinity and exposing them. If they don't want to be exposed for such behavior, don't swing.

What I think about individuals that struggle with same sex attraction is irrelevant to my opinion of adulterers. People that, of their free will, stand before their community and marry {marriage is a social institution} and then ~~ of their free will ~~~ have sex with others are, in no way, comparable to the struggles for acceptance, rights, compassion and, perhaps, tolerance of the black, hispanic, handicapped, challenged, gay, lesbian, trans and other marginalized communities. Nobody could begin to argue they were BORN a swinger and it's offensive to see those arguments conflated.


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## niceguy28 (May 6, 2016)

I don't understand the hatred for two consenting adults what they want to do. I'm not defending anything but to suggest that they be "outed" some how is ridiculous. There are times when swinging works but most times it doesn't. Very few people can deal with issues of jealousy. As for the comment about size, I do think that it matters more to women than they care to admit but unless you have a micro-penis you can work with what you've got.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Quality said:


> Wayward spouses aren't criminals or pedophiles either and we recommend exposing them to public scrutiny. What's the difference?


A little separating of the sheep from the goats.

Except that isn't your job, pharisee.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> @Quality, are you also a gay-basher?
> 
> Your idea may be free speech and even truthful, but you would be doing so maliciously with intent to harm someone who has not harmed you, and has actually harmed no one. Swinging is consensual, and (with rare bad actors who I wouldn't care about if they were exposed) do not push non-swingers into participating, or attempt to entice a married person to cheat. Your free speech could easily provoke a malicious response against you or your family, and frankly, I think that would be understandable even if regrettable.



Swinging is the harmful behavior ~ not exposure. 

Swinging is destructive to families, children AND their swinging parents, it spreads disease throughout the community and further leads to the breakdown devaluation of the institution of marriage.

Don't want to be exposed ~ don't swing.

My experience with adulterers is they either scurry away like roaches when you shine a light on their behavior or they own up to their behavior, admit wrongdoing and repent/change their ways. It's quite remarkable how AFTER being exposed, waywards (including swingers) come to understand how awful their behavior is.


I did want to add ~ if the swinger is a professing Christian, I'd want to have a private discussion with him/her first, not warning him of being publicly exposed, but to confront him/her on their behavior and ask them to stop it privately. Then we go before the church or several members of the church and then public. Most refuse to meet up at all so it's not an issue generally.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

I would assume that each group is different, but do most groups require condoms, or since you are all friends do you assume everyone is safe? If one of the members finds out they have an STD, do they get kicked out of the group, or do you just have to be more cautious? Most people don't perform oral with protection, so do you worry about what other members are doing when they are away? My assumption may be wrong, but I have assumed that swingers go through large numbers of partners, many of which are strangers?

If you have an accidental pregnancy, do you DNA test, or is the husband carefree enough to possibly raise someone else's child? Protection (condom or pill) is not 100 percent and I image their is a lot of fluid exchange. 

I just imagine their are a LOT of scenarios you have to discuss in order to make swinging work. For me, I could never do it. For one thing, I'm happy with only my wife. For another, I would get jealous of anyone having sex with my wife. Lastly, I tend to equate sex with emotions. I have had a few ONS before I met my wife. None of them were very fulfilling. Longer-term relationships with an emotional bond mean way more to me. I know I would end up falling in love with someone else and it would damage my relationship with my wife. I don't want or need that. 

I guess maybe the way I view swinging is that you basically use other people like a sex toy. Instead of grabbing a new toy from the drawer, you say "Hey, lets screw Tom and Jen tonight!" then when you are done you toss them back into the drawer to use later? I do realize they enjoy it to, but it's just kind of how I envision it. 

Last night I decided to go to an adult site and look at some swinging videos. Interesting! I didn't see many condoms. Also, do attractive people swing too?  Maybe the attractive ones just don't do videos? I'm just kidding. I'm sure the attractive ones have more swinging options than the unattractive ones. Is that the case? 

So many questions! If I come across as anti swinging, I'm not. I'm only against it for me and my wife.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

TX-SC said:


> I would assume that each group is different, but do most groups require condoms, or since you are all friends do you assume everyone is safe?


Always, always, always, always condoms. Always. Did I mention Always? Regular testing with results available to anyone who wants them.




> If one of the members finds out they have an STD, do they get kicked out of the group, or do you just have to be more cautious?


It depends on the STI. If it is bacterial, they wait for the course of treatment. If it is viral, the infected person usually steps out or find someone likewise inflicted.



> Most people don't perform oral with protection, so do you worry about what other members are doing when they are away? My assumption may be wrong, but I have assumed that swingers go through large numbers of partners, many of which are strangers?
> 
> If you have an accidental pregnancy, do you DNA test, or is the husband carefree enough to possibly raise someone else's child? Protection (condom or pill) is not 100 percent and I image their is a lot of fluid exchange.


This certainly never happened to us. We generally used several forms of protection to reduce risk. But according to DH, any child of mine is a child of his.




> I just imagine their are a LOT of scenarios you have to discuss in order to make swinging work. For me, I could never do it. For one thing, I'm happy with only my wife. For another, I would get jealous of anyone having sex with my wife. Lastly, I tend to equate sex with emotions. I have had a few ONS before I met my wife. None of them were very fulfilling. Longer-term relationships with an emotional bond mean way more to me. I know I would end up falling in love with someone else and it would damage my relationship with my wife. I don't want or need that.


That is not an uncommon view. Know thyself.



> I guess maybe the way I view swinging is that you basically use other people like a sex toy. Instead of grabbing a new toy from the drawer, you say "Hey, lets screw Tom and Jen tonight!" then when you are done you toss them back into the drawer to use later?


Different people do it differently, and some the way you describe. We basically made very good friends with many of our ... friends.

I do realize they enjoy it to, but it's just kind of how I envision it. 



> Last night I decided to go to an adult site and look at some swinging videos. Interesting! I didn't see many condoms. Also, do attractive people swing too?  Maybe the attractive ones just don't do videos? I'm just kidding. I'm sure the attractive ones have more swinging options than the unattractive ones. Is that the case?


LOL. It is certainly harder for those of us in the attractive category to find partners who are likewise. It is just a matter of numbers. I would never dream of posting pics or vids!


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Cletus said:


> A little separating of the sheep from the goats.
> 
> Except that isn't your job, pharisee.



Ahhh, so it is your understanding that exposure is a vindictive, judgmental, hurtful and mean act.

It's not. 



gotquestions dot org said:


> The core message of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats is that God’s people will love others. Good works will result from our relationship to the Shepherd. Followers of Christ will treat others with kindness, serving them as if they were serving Christ Himself. The unregenerate live in the opposite manner. While “goats” can indeed perform acts of kindness and charity, their hearts are not right with God, and their actions are not for the right purpose – to honor and worship God.



God's people love others. Jesus didn't tell the woman at the well to "go, and sin no more" because he was mean and wanted to ruin her fun. He had compassion and empathy for her, knew her heart and knew the destructive path she HAD been on. 

It's caring and loving to expose adulterers otherwise they just remain trapped in the golden age of sin constantly multiplying the consequences to themselves and others. In my empathetic view, the sooner they incur the consequences of their choices ~ the sooner they will hopefully turn away from their behavior and turn towards their creator.

Also, I'm not perfect. If you were my brother, neighbor or friend in real life I'd equally like you to hold me likewise accountable for my behavior such that I can live a better life too.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Quality said:


> Ahhh, so it is your understanding that exposure is a vindictive, judgmental, hurtful and mean act.
> 
> It's not.


What it is is none of your business. My morality is MY business and none of yours. I will keep my nose out of your hypocrisy. You can keep your nose out of my bedroom.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> Always, always, always, always condoms. Always. Did I mention Always? Regular testing with results available to anyone who wants them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for your well reasoned answers. Way too many people are answering from their emotions rather than from reasoned standpoints. Anyway, good luck and be safe.


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## happy2gether (Dec 6, 2015)

I can say this to the ones that "once knew a few couples that swing and are now divorced", those of us that swing know FAR MORE couples that do it and are extremely happy together. One thing many of you don't realize is just how many people you know that swing, only they keep that a secret from judgmental folks.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

happy2gether said:


> I can say this to the ones that "once knew a few couples that swing and are now divorced", those of us that swing know FAR MORE couples that do it and are extremely happy together. One thing many of you don't realize is just how many people you know that swing, only they keep that a secret from judgmental folks.


Why keep it a secret?


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Ha ha I decided to google swinging in my area. Got some hits and they have realistic posts like this:

"'m a girl underneath these clothes, i'm just me. I'm a black liberal girl and i had to ask the whitecolored males in this area who call themselves often republican, conservative, democratic or liberal for that matter how do you balance that when you date outside your contest or political affilation? through. She is widowed and has been for a couple years, i just want her to fin"

Clearly NOT spam links to foreign web sites. Because we all talk that way, right?

Maybe I don't know the secret handshake 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LucasJackson said:


> Why keep it a secret?


I'm an atheist. Living on the Left Coast, I don't keep it a secret. If I lived in Mississippi, I might consider it, because there it would have tangible negative repercussions on my livelihood, standing in the community, lives of my spouse and my children. I don't say this theoretically - I have a brother-in-law who lives there who can tell you of the very real downside. 

It's no reflection on what I think about my beliefs, but what fallout I might have to endure by broadcasting them.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

Cletus said:


> I'm an atheist. Living on the Left Coast, I don't keep it a secret. If I lived in Mississippi, I might consider it, because there it would have tangible negative repercussions on my livelihood, standing in the community, lives of my spouse and my children. I don't say this theoretically - I have a brother-in-law who lives there who can tell you of the very real downside.
> 
> It's no reflection on what I think about my beliefs, but what fallout I might have to endure by broadcasting them.


That's cool. I'd hate to live a life afraid to stand by my own beliefs. If somebody doesn't like them, that's cool, live and let live. I've been an outspoken atheist in the deepest of the bible belt for a few years. Nobody ever gave me any sh*t about it. A lot of those tales of intolerance I learned were bullsh*t. I was as much a yankee outsider as one could be and the people were awesome. I had heard about "southern hospitality" but found that one to be true.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LucasJackson said:


> That's cool. I'd hate to live a life afraid to stand by my own beliefs. If somebody doesn't like them, that's cool, live and let live. I've been an outspoken atheist in the deepest of the bible belt for a few years. Nobody ever gave me any sh*t about it. A lot of those tales of intolerance I learned were bullsh*t. I was as much a yankee outsider as one could be and the people were awesome. I had heard about "southern hospitality" but found that one to be true.


My BIL is an OB-GYN who started going to church because it was well known that he would lose clientele if he let his beliefs become public. So it's more the soft-"racism" kind of problem instead of the overt in-your-face kind that Quality is proposing here.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

happy2gether said:


> I can say this to the ones that "once knew a few couples that swing and are now divorced", those of us that swing know FAR MORE couples that do it and are extremely happy together. One thing many of you don't realize is just how many people you know that swing, only they keep that a secret from judgmental folks.


I would rather have judgement, than lack it.


There are also a lot of cheating wayward spouses out there that say the exact same thing. They are really embarrassed of their affair partner, but feel they need to keep it a secret because of all those judgmental folks that might be critical of them and their relationship. Better to PRETEND they are just friends.

Why pretend? How come swingers don't have swing pride parades?

If there is really nothing wrong with it other than some grief from us "judgmental folks" and you really are this large populace why don't you all just come out and do it proudly? Considering most swingers are white, educated and above average incomes ~ there should be lots of business owners and jobs available to swingers with companies where this is already going on en masse. Why not be proud and loud in real life?

{yes, cletus those are rhetorical questions ~ because I know why already ~ it's fear, shame and probably embarrassment ~ especially for the spouse that least likes the idea of sharing his/her spouse}


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

Cletus said:


> My BIL is an OB-GYN who started going to church because it was well known that he would lose clientele if he let his beliefs become public. So it's more the soft-"racism" kind of problem instead of the overt in-your-face kind that Quality is proposing here.


Neighbors used to send the southern baptist ministers to our house to convince us to come to church so we don't burn. I enjoyed the debate with them about super beings and all that silliness. I'd point out the inconsistencies in their belief system....you know...like I did with swinging on this thread.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> Certainly when we were first together, we were each other's everything. But over the years we can to the conclusion that exclusivity is not necessary to love the crap out of each other. It is not a sad existence. I am cherished, loved, cared for every single day.
> 
> I sometimes wonder if open relationships are more dangerous than swinging.


My wayward was my everything. It was years after being together that we started allowing outside fun. I was experienced, but never pressured her to try anything - but she made a mistake and did things to please me. There is some KINK we both like and able to do still.
Anyway, when she cheated on me, it was with someone not in the lifestyle or open minded groups. He might have been half my age, his personality was not attractive or liked by others.

After the A and the pain of whats happened, my primary relationship is most important, not worth jeopardizing with anything open.

When I used the word "open relationship" I was using it as a general umbrella. 

Swinging <~> Polyamorous are two ends of the spectrum. To a degree, swinging is safer than poly as its *IS* just about sex (of course there is cheating) - Poly has emotional, but maybe not sex. (Of course, there is cheating). Same rules applies to mono vs non-mono.

My wayward wife getting involved with one guy way too much vs our occasional "fun" every 2-4 months is quite different. She had pissed off our poly friends... which we are still friends with, but are friends.
(ie: even before - we would hang out and sex isn't planned or happen)


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

LucasJackson said:


> If you have romantic relations with other women, or men, then she is not your everything. The love of parent to children can't be compared to romantic love. That's gross and illegal in most places.


 I don't agree with your opinion, simple as that.

WTH are you talking about? Are you perverted?! Why would YOU attach romantic love to children? Would you mixed them as one? Nothing I said was sexual about children.
Yes, romantic love vs family love are two different things. But the point applies.

Can you love more than one child? Yes.
Can you love more than one parent? Yes.
Can you love more than just one family member? Yes.
Can you care about more than one friend? Yes.
So *YES* people can and DO have romance outside more than just the two of them.

We have poly friends that are upset with my WW cheating and lying.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

As there is more cheating going on that many of us ever thought. There is a LOT more swinging and poly going on than most people know about, especially with the older crowd.

When my WE started being more open, etc. My wife *THEN* finds out that many more of her friends are into swinging/poly that she never knew. Hell, some of them wanted her (unicorn) before she and I even meet.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> If only sex with others could solve your problems, but it won't. Only you can solve your issues, and many people leave toxic marriages. You have to decide if living every day the way you are out weighs a better future for yourself and kids. Just keep thinking on it. ((hug))


What I meant was that I can see why people in my situation do these things. Fortunately I haven't or don't intend to. I don't see how you can go to swinging parties and still go back home to a wife and family when it's all a sham. I couldn't live a lie like that.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

TaDor said:


> My wayward was my everything. It was years after being together that we started allowing outside fun. I was experienced, but never pressured her to try anything - but she made a mistake and did things to please me. There is some KINK we both like and able to do still.
> Anyway, when she cheated on me, it was with someone not in the lifestyle or open minded groups. He might have been half my age, his personality was not attractive or liked by others.
> 
> After the A and the pain of whats happened, my primary relationship is most important, not worth jeopardizing with anything open.
> ...


According to the reading I have done, open marriage means solitary (not together) activity. THAT was what I wondered if was more dangerous. I have friends that joke, people who play together stay together.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

TaDor said:


> I don't agree with your opinion, simple as that.
> 
> WTH are you talking about? Are you perverted?! Why would YOU attach romantic love to children? Would you mixed them as one? Nothing I said was sexual about children.
> Yes, romantic love vs family love are two different things. But the point applies.
> ...


That describes a sad life where you have a bunch of pretty special but none that are the one. Sad.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Ha ha I decided to google swinging in my area. Got some hits and they have realistic posts like this:
> 
> "'m a girl underneath these clothes, i'm just me. I'm a black liberal girl and i had to ask the whitecolored males in this area who call themselves often republican, conservative, democratic or liberal for that matter how do you balance that when you date outside your contest or political affilation? through. She is widowed and has been for a couple years, i just want her to fin"
> 
> ...


If you want serious people, you use a paid, private site.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

@NobodySpecial : Yes, that makes sense. When we played together - it was okay, but some issues. 
@LucasJackson : Your logic & reasoning doesn't make sense. You did associate loving your children = sex / romance with children, after all. I tried to explain it in the simplest of terms.

And as WE do see, the ratio of cheating spouses in monogamous relationships *IS* quite high and has nothing to do with swingers. The mentality of cheaters is still the same, either way.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I'm an atheist. Living on the Left Coast, I don't keep it a secret. If I lived in Mississippi, I might consider it, because there it would have tangible negative repercussions on my livelihood, standing in the community, lives of my spouse and my children. I don't say this theoretically - I have a brother-in-law who lives there who can tell you of the very real downside.
> 
> It's no reflection on what I think about my beliefs, but what fallout I might have to endure by broadcasting them.


I don't actually discuss my atheism with my mother. While I think she has come to the same conclusion herself, after years of Catholic schools and forced church attendance, I just think I will pass. We have really nice conversations about her law practice, my kids, our vacations... It works.

I certainly don't tell my kids that I had anal with Dad last night or that I gave him a BJ. Am I keeping it "secret'? Why the hell would they want to know that? At best I would get an ewwww Moooom. Do I think anal is wrong? No. Would my kids just love to hear about the BJ? Ewwwww Moooom. I DO remind them sometimes that they are lucky kids to have 2 parents who still love each other, even still love having sex.

My kids definitely understood that things we different with our poly quad. We looked at houses together. They knew that I loved both of them and that Dad loved her. And that we both loved their kids. They know age appropriate things about the break up. 

My kids don't tell me which of the kids in their class are having sex or smoking pot. It is none of my business. I do know that they aren't and that they both have good skills for helping a friend in trouble if the need ever arises. I don't meddle in their affairs that they can handle themselves. 

The damage to the kids one I truly don't get. The Dear Abby article made me laugh a little. We do know that

1. Kids think their parents having any sex is gross.
2. Dear Abby is an entertainment article.

I look at my kids. They are recognized at school, by their peers, by their activity teachers and coaches as very well put together. Both of them, despite being in the thick of dating age, absolutely reject acquiring a boyfriend or girlfriend who does not value them as people. They are both smart enough to come to me or Dad with problems when they need to. That are very open with us about sexual education. (Anyone who is interested in sex ed for teens, look into Our Whole Live. Awesome program.)

If on any day my kids want to ask me about my own sex life, I will answer them honestly to the degree that I think they need to know to grow into mature people as I already do. This will include failure to play stupid games of covert contracts with Nice Guys, playing stupid games of paying for romance or marriage with sex or paying for sex with money. If they WANT to know about swinging, I would tell them. Why wouldn't I? Interestingly, they could not care less about my sex life.

My son was talking about sex ed in school. (He thought it was a joke.) He said yah parent's can exclude their kids from sex ed for religious reasons. I don't get it. Why would you want your kids to remain ignorant?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

TaDor said:


> @NobodySpecial : Yes, that makes sense. When we played together - it was okay, but some issues.


For us, there was some closeness achieved by working THROUGH issues rather than avoiding them. YMMV. But boundary issues yielded Full Stop.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> What it is is none of your business. My morality is MY business and none of yours. I will keep my nose out of your hypocrisy. You can keep your nose out of my bedroom.


Is it now? Is that a fact? 

But minding your business and the business of other adulterers is my lifestyle behavior choice. I CHOOSE to be a busy body and I'm not hurting anyone by publicizing public information about persons. Don't want it made public, don't do it or keep it an airtight secret (which is really hard to do forever). The truth usually comes out and I'll be there living MY chosen lifestyle. Exposure is just words ~ its the behavior that is exposed that hurts people and it hurts people NOW while you are doing it ~ they just don't know it YET.

My choices are MY business and none of yours. Keep your own nose out of your own hypocrisy {telling me what to do based upon a social norm of "minding one's own business" while protesting my objections and judgment of you behaving outside social norms}.

As far as keeping my nose out of your bedroom. This is not a singles forum ~~ I don't swing, I'm happily married and I'm certainly not interested.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Quality said:


> Is it now? Is that a fact?
> 
> But minding your business and the business of other adulterers is my lifestyle behavior choice. I CHOOSE to be a busy body and I'm not hurting anyone by publicizing public information about persons. Don't want it made public, don't do it or keep it an airtight secret (which is really hard to do forever). The truth usually comes out and I'll be there living MY chosen lifestyle. Exposure is just words ~ its the behavior that is exposed that hurts people and it hurts people NOW while you are doing it ~ they just don't know it YET.
> 
> My choices are MY business and none of yours.


Why are your choices yours and none of mine. But mine are, apparently yours? Your imaginary friend?


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> The damage to the kids one I truly don't get.


I think it's the fact that kids look up to their parents so much. They love them and respect them, so when they discover that their parents sleep around with so many total strangers, that knowledge tarnishes this image that they have of their parents. Personally, if hypothetically speaking, I found out that my parents were swingers, I'd be truly ashamed to call them my parents, but then again, I'm a grown adult and they're kids. Luckily, my mother is a very honorable woman and has never done anything to cause me to lose even a tiny bit of respect for her. My dad was married to her for over 30 years and still had a very healthy dose of respect for her up until he passed away years ago. She is a true saint and if admission to heaven could be attained by being a good, moral person, she would be a shoo-in.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

becareful2 said:


> Personally, if hypothetically speaking, I found out that my parents were swingers, I'd be truly ashamed to call them my parents,


Wow, not me at all.

If I found out my parents were swingers, I'd blink twice, close my lower jaw, and get on with my day. The sexual proclivities of another person, short of practicing pedophilia, have no bearing whatsoever on how I view their worth as a human. 

Now that you mention it, my mother did tell the story of how one set of friends inquired if they might be willing to swing. This would have been about 1965. You never know - they could be your neighbors!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

becareful2 said:


> I think it's the fact that kids look up to their parents so much. They love them and respect them, so when they discover that their parents sleep around with so many total strangers, that knowledge tarnishes this image that they have of their parents. Personally, if hypothetically speaking, I found out that my parents were swingers, I'd be truly ashamed to call them my parents, but then again, I'm a grown adult and they're kids. Luckily, my mother is a very honorable woman and has never done anything to cause me to lose even a tiny bit of respect for her. My dad was married to her for over 30 years and still had a very healthy dose of respect for her up until he passed away years ago. She is a true saint and if admission to heaven could be attained by being a good, moral person, she would be a shoo-in.


They raised you in a way that I clearly have not with my kids. And the last thing I want my kids to think of me as "saint". I am a human person teaching them how to be human people. How is your saint coming?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Wow, not me at all.
> 
> If I found out my parents were swingers, I'd blink twice, close my lower jaw, and get on with my day. The sexual proclivities of another person, short of practicing pedophilia, have no bearing whatsoever on how I view their worth as a human.


Well. Animals have no ability to consent either, so I am not down with bestiality either.


> Now that you mention it, my mother did tell the story of how one set of friends inquired if they might be willing to swing. This would have been about 1965. You never know - they could be your neighbors!


Apparently it made its biggest increase in participation in the '70s. Go figure. =)


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Why are your choices yours and none of mine. But mine are, apparently yours? Your imaginary friend?


So are you saying you get it? That post wasn't serious. I was sarcastically {using your own language even} pointing out your hypocrisy in telling my how to behave when you don't think anyone has the right to question or oppose your anti-social, non-standard, unhealthy, hurtful and debased behavior.

You like social custom when it suits you and expect others to follow rules while disregarding them yourself. 

Maybe if I try again, you'll fully get it.

*This is sarcasm ~~~ 
*
Why are your choices (to swing) none of my business and I should keep my nose out of it. But my choices {to be a swinger exposer extraordinairre} are, apparently yours {since you told me it's none of my business and I need to keep my nose out of it}. 

If english isn't your first language ~ I apologize.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Quality said:


> Why are your choices (to swing) none of my business and I should keep my nose out of it. But my choices {to be a swinger exposer extraordinairre} are, apparently yours {since you told me it's none of my business and I need to keep my nose out of it}.


Because, in legal terms, you have no standing.

You are not in any tangible way harmed by her choice of sexual lifestyle. Our society is based loosely on the principle that you have no say in the matter and in fact should have none when the outcome of that decision does not impact you in the slightest. 

Do you enjoy your religious freedom? Good - better hope that the majority continues to believe in it too rather than put your name on lists and pin stars to your lapel.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Quality said:


> So are you saying you get it? That post wasn't serious. I was sarcastically {using your own language even} pointing out your hypocrisy in telling my how to behave when you don't think anyone has the right to question or oppose your anti-social, non-standard, unhealthy, hurtful and debased behavior.
> 
> You like social custom when it suits you and expect others to follow rules while disregarding them yourself.
> 
> ...


Sarcasm. You suck at it. As for "norms" and "custom", I reject them all the time in the name of mental health. I see so much broken "normal" that I feel fine with that conclusion.

Your choice is an infringement on someone else. My choice does not bother you in the slightest. Except for having a massive hair across your ass.


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Quality said:


> Is it now? Is that a fact?
> 
> But minding your business and the business of other adulterers is my lifestyle behavior choice. I CHOOSE to be a busy body and I'm not hurting anyone by publicizing public information about persons. Don't want it made public, don't do it or keep it an airtight secret (which is really hard to do forever). The truth usually comes out and I'll be there living MY chosen lifestyle. Exposure is just words ~ its the behavior that is exposed that hurts people and it hurts people NOW while you are doing it ~ they just don't know it YET.
> 
> ...


At this point I'm starting to ask myself if you're even for real. I guess I just can't wrap my head around caring that much about others people's lives. I'm not you. But for me that would be exhausting. Picketing companies that employ cheaters, wanting to expose swingers. That takes a lot of time. Life is much too short for that. This ain't the political forum, but I am glad I don't live in your version of America. Oh, and for the record, I love me some Jesus too.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

TaDor said:


> @NobodySpecial : Yes, that makes sense. When we played together - it was okay, but some issues.
> 
> @LucasJackson : Your logic & reasoning doesn't make sense. You did associate loving your children = sex / romance with children, after all. I tried to explain it in the simplest of terms.
> 
> And as WE do see, the ratio of cheating spouses in monogamous relationships *IS* quite high and has nothing to do with swingers. The mentality of cheaters is still the same, either way.


Actually you're the one who connected love for children with romantic love. You made that comparison, I said it was gross and illegal. Let's keep it factual. As for "stats" on any of these things, that would be absolutely impossible to gather with even a remote degree of accuracy. I dismiss all of them no matter which group they're about.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Sarcasm. You suck at it. As for "norms" and "custom", I reject them all the time in the name of mental health. I see so much broken "normal" that I feel fine with that conclusion.
> 
> Your choice is an infringement on someone else. My choice does not bother you in the slightest. Except for having a massive hair across your ass.


But by trying to tell me not to expose adulterers aren't you then trying to infringe on my Christian obligation to expose such?



> Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. Ephesians 5:15 NIV


Are you bigot towards Christians? Why so hateful? I'm just trying to live my faith.

AND ~~~ Your choice does "bother me". It's wrong, unhealthy, hurtful and undermining social structure, devaluing marriage ETC ~ ETC ~ ETC and ETC. Decent persons should feel a sense of obligation to warn others of who the adulterers are just as I would want to know if I was in the company of secret swingers and some guy (or his wife - yuhk) was eyeballing my wife (or me - double yuhk).


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

I don't understand the whole ''exposure'' theme on here lol Honestly, this forum is probably the first place and only place that I've ever heard this idea of exposing cheaters and such. And now the suggestion to ''expose'' swingers. It's okay to agree to disagree about a person's lifestyle choices, but to gossip about them...or ''expose'' their lifestyle choices to others...just seems wrong. While I have my own personal thoughts about it, and we can all chat about here on this forum, it's not my place to run around telling others to feel the same way I do about it.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> I don't understand the whole ''exposure'' theme on here lol Honestly, this forum is probably the first place and only place that I've ever heard this idea of exposing cheaters and such. And now the suggestion to ''expose'' swingers. It's okay to agree to disagree about a person's lifestyle choices, but to gossip about them...or ''expose'' their lifestyle choices to others...just seems wrong. While I have my own personal thoughts about it, and we can all chat about here on this forum, it's not my place to run around telling others to feel the same way I do about it.


Exposing cheaters is a righteous thing to do. There are so many reasons to do it and very few not to. I, however, don't understand anyone wanting to "expose" swingers. I don't see the point.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

Cletus said:


> Unless I missed it, none of the swingers here are doing that. Mostly, they're having to defend their lifestyle from those who would tell them what marital and mental issues they must have to be practicing it. And they're doing it with grace, poise and patience. More than I have, at least, but then I don't swing.


Actually the word "prudish" was used by the swinger toward the non-swinger. I asked why that word was chosen but, as expected, there was no response.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

LucasJackson said:


> Exposing cheaters is a righteous thing to do. There are so many reasons to do it and very few not to. I, however, don't understand anyone wanting to "expose" swingers. I don't see the point.


''Exposing'' people in their sins to family, friends and anyone who will listen seems very Old Testament-esque. lol


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> ''Exposing'' people in their sins to family, friends and anyone who will listen seems very Old Testament-esque. lol


Exposing affairs is the absolute best way to put an end to them and the bad behavior in general. Most times it's used to help the BS get support in place to help heal the marriage. Plus, cheaters, when in the fog, are masterful liars. If you don't get the truth out there they'll control the message and weave quite a web of lies. They'll end up having family, friends, and community actually sympathizing with them. BS's need to take control of the message the minute they find out.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

LucasJackson said:


> Exposing affairs is the absolute best way to put an end to them and the bad behavior in general. Most times it's used to help the BS get support in place to help heal the marriage. Plus, cheaters, when in the fog, are masterful liars. If you don't get the truth out there they'll control the message and weave quite a web of lies. They'll end up having family, friends, and community actually sympathizing with them. BS's need to take control of the message the minute they find out.


I can understand sharing it with a close friend or a parent, in terms of venting, but to spread it around like the town crier, seems vengeful and doesn't change what happened. The BS is still hurt as ever, and nothing changes. The WS doesn't just change because he/she is exposed...if there is reconciliation, it might because the BS burned all the bridges and now the only place left for the WS to run, is back home. This is just my opinion, but just think it's not something to tell the world, and the other thing is...and I've seen this on threads in here...the WS and the BS reconcile, but everyone in their social and family circles remembers what the WS did, and treats them forever differently. We could say, well the WS deserves it, but it seems unnecessary. Idk. That's just my opinion, fwiw. 

Exposing people in their sin doesn't change them, they can only change themselves. And only if they want to.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> if there is reconciliation, it might because the BS burned all the bridges and now the only place left for the WS to run, is back home.


I understand the theory that it will assist in breaking up the affair and foster the cheaters to return to the barnyard. But like you say, if the only reason they are back is because the BS burned the bridges what kind of marriage are they going to have left anyway. 
Ive always felt, given this type scenario, at least one wants to stay in the marriage primarily for financial reasons. The "kids" argument doesn't wash because most folks are aware kids from so called broken families are oftentimes better off than those where the one or both parents are miserable.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> I can understand sharing it with a close friend or a parent, in terms of venting, but to spread it around like the town crier, seems vengeful and doesn't change what happened. The BS is still hurt as ever, and nothing changes. The WS doesn't just change because he/she is exposed...if there is reconciliation, it might because the BS burned all the bridges and now the only place left for the WS to run, is back home. This is just my opinion, but just think it's not something to tell the world, and the other thing is...and I've seen this on threads in here...the WS and the BS reconcile, but everyone in their social and family circles remembers what the WS did, and treats them forever differently. We could say, well the WS deserves it, but it seems unnecessary. Idk. That's just my opinion, fwiw.
> 
> Exposing people in their sin doesn't change them, they can only change themselves. And only if they want to.


If you don't care about your spouse - then don't expose them.

I don't think you've thought this through fully. Would you let a friend waste away on heroin without an intervention? It's similar. A wayward spouse is so wrapped up in sin (much like the swingers) that they can't make any decisions about their life, your life, their family ~~~ really anything. Your plan of non-intervention is merely enabling the affair to continue. You'll eventually give up and divorce or have an affair of your own. Exposure brings rock bottom forward and eliminates weeks, months even years of betrayed spouse limbo. 

The first step towards saving your spouse {whether you reconcile or not} is exposure. I prefer it in concentric circles where you first confront the wayward in private and demand they stop, then supportive family and/or a couple close friends, then without warning literally everyone. 

It's amazing how many affairs unravel nearly immediately once exposed. Usually the male affair partner goes running back to his wife and shuts it down. 

Then you can evaluate your situation without any interference from an interloper and reconcile, divorce or be open to both solutions for a time while everyone figures it out.


And, it works whether they are religious or not

~~~ it's not old testament - It's New Testament. 

Google Church Discipline.

An swingers are just adulterers with differing justifications. I care about them as well. Exposure is compassionate. Like disciplining children.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

VladDracul said:


> I understand the theory that it will assist in breaking up the affair and foster the cheaters to return to the barnyard. But like you say, if the only reason they are back is because the BS burned the bridges what kind of marriage are they going to have left anyway.
> Ive always felt, given this type scenario, at least one wants to stay in the marriage primarily for financial reasons. The "kids" argument doesn't wash because most folks are aware kids from so called broken families are oftentimes better off than those where the one or both parents are miserable.


I've seen some nasty affair situations completely recover regardless of the initial reasons spouses stay together. 

If you want to save your spouse from making a large mistake and destroying everyone's life {including their own} ~ expose them and hopefully get the affair to end {affairs draw power from the secret - they become much less fun after exposure} ~~~ then worry about the fallout.

If the wayward refuses to recover because of the fallout over exposure the betrayed spouse is better off without that person anyway.

Don't want be exposed ~ don't commit adultery.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Quality said:


> If you don't care about your spouse - then don't expose them.
> 
> I don't think you've thought this through fully. Would you let a friend waste away on heroin without an intervention? It's similar. A wayward spouse is so wrapped up in sin (much like the swingers) that they can't make any decisions about their life, your life, their family ~~~ really anything. Your plan of non-intervention is merely enabling the affair to continue. You'll eventually give up and divorce or have an affair of your own. Exposure brings rock bottom forward and eliminates weeks, months even years of betrayed spouse limbo.
> 
> ...


I understand what you're saying, so if you had a porn habit, would you want your spouse telling everyone in your family? If you asked to have a threesome, would it be ok if your spouse told everyone in your family?

You see, if you're a believer, sin is sin. Adultery isn't the worst sin, and you probably sin. We all do. I don't see exposing as being a good way to handle the problems going on in your marriage. 

I can understand what you're saying, but I personally see it as a vengeful act...not an act of 'charity.'


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> I understand what you're saying, so if you had a porn habit, would you want your spouse telling everyone in your family? If you asked to have a threesome, would it be ok if your spouse told everyone in your family?
> 
> 
> I can understand what you're saying, but I personally see it as a vengeful act...not an act of 'charity.


Yes. I expect my wife and friends to hold me accountable for my behavior. 

If she confronts me privately and I refuse to stop, then bring in some other witnesses to hold me accountable. If I still refuse, try a broader or even full exposure to bring me to my senses.


If your spouse can't hold you accountable, who will?


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

LucasJackson said:


> Exposing cheaters is a righteous thing to do. There are so many reasons to do it and very few not to. I, however, don't understand anyone wanting to "expose" swingers. I don't see the point.


I'm starting to wonder if we have a Westboro Baptist Church member among us...


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Quality said:


> Don't want be exposed ~ don't commit adultery.


Since you have an issue with adultery, am I right to presume you also picket nightclubs, pubs, libraries, cafe's, restaurants, hotels, motels, private homes and a myriad of other places where people meet up to heaven forbid have sex (or plan to) outside of marriage?

Considering adultery is any and all sex outside of a marriage and includes pre and post marital sex and not just extramarital sex, you must have your work cut out for you trying to expose most of the adult Western world.

Anyway last time I looked your man-made fairytale Christian god, had no problem telling others to commit adultery.

_And the Lord said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of wh0redoms.... Hosea 1:2

Then said the Lord unto me, God yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress. Hosea 3:1_


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> For us, there was some closeness achieved by working THROUGH issues rather than avoiding them. YMMV. But boundary issues yielded Full Stop.


Yep, we thought our communications were good enough, but they were not. Going full stop and working our problems would have been a big help to ourselves.

Well, that is the past.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> I don't understand the whole ''exposure'' theme on here lol Honestly, this forum is probably the first place and only place that I've ever heard this idea of exposing cheaters and such. And now the suggestion to ''expose'' swingers. It's okay to agree to disagree about a person's lifestyle choices, but to gossip about them...or ''expose'' their lifestyle choices to others...just seems wrong. While I have my own personal thoughts about it, and we can all chat about here on this forum, it's not my place to run around telling others to feel the same way I do about it.


The idea to expose cheaters *by the BS* to the other spouse and any other involved parties has the specific goal of waking the WS their fog. I don't think it is intended as a general scarlet letter usually. 

The swinger thing I don't get. Why people who call themselves christian act in such unchrist like ways I will never understand. Jesus was into the sick and the poor. He very specifically told people not to meddle with the splinter in their neighbor's eye when they have a 2x4 in their own. 

The whole undermining society thing is something so vague that it makes no sense. They said the same thing about gay marriage ruining the "institution" of marriage. I have failed to see society crumble in the past year. Go figure.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> You see, if you're a believer, sin is sin.


If you are a believer, believe. For yourself. Do not impose some christian version of Sharia on the rest of us. I think half the time I am more christian than the people who claim to be. Focusing on daffy things like charity, kindness,justice and love. Jesus would approve. When so called christians care more about what other people are doing with the sex lives than social justice, raiding our political discussion with "sin", it makes me mildly annoyed.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> The idea to expose cheaters *by the BS* to the other spouse and any other involved parties has the specific goal of waking the WS their fog. I don't think it is intended as a general scarlet letter usually.
> 
> The swinger thing I don't get. Why people who call themselves christian act in such unchrist like ways I will never understand. Jesus was into the sick and the poor. He very specifically told people not to meddle with the splinter in their neighbor's eye when they have a 2x4 in their own.
> 
> The whole undermining society thing is something so vague that it makes no sense. They said the same thing about gay marriage ruining the "institution" of marriage. I have failed to see society crumble in the past year. Go figure.


Agree. I don't see exposing anyone, unless they're committing a crime. If I saw someone robbing a bank, I'd go tell the police lol but, if my neighbors are swingers, or cheating, it's none of my business. 

This thread, we are all offering different opinions - but IRL, interjecting opinions into people's lives is something I never really understood, about any topic.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> Agree. I don't see exposing anyone, unless they're committing a crime. If I saw someone robbing a bank, I'd go tell the police lol but, if my neighbors are swingers, or cheating, it's none of my business.
> 
> This thread, we are all offering different opinions - but IRL, interjecting opinions into people's lives is something I never really understood, about any topic.


The ostensible motivations is "caring for them". But in truth it is nothing more than pride. Somehow god chose THEM to punish recalcitrant children. That has to be one hell of a mind blow. The idea that somehow exposing a non-believer who does not attain their morality from the exposer's god, who does not even think that there is a moral problem with their actions is not going to suddenly change the non-believer's heart or mind is not very smart. All it is likely to do is make the exposer look like the jerk they are.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

arbitrator said:


> *IMHO, "swinging," whether spouse endorsed or not, is "cheating!"
> 
> The only real difference is that each spouse actually gets to lay witness to the other "performing" the illicit and often soul-killing act!*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



This !!!!! 100% correct Arb. Swinging and open marriages are cheating. All adultery is. Endorsed or not. I don't know and will never know how people do it but I will never and I don't even associate with open marriage/swinging people


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

wmn1 said:


> This !!!!! 100% correct Arb. Swinging and open marriages are cheating. All adultery is. Endorsed or not. I don't know and will never know how people do it but I will never and I don't even associate with open marriage/swinging people


Except for that whole pesky lying deceit stuff!


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> I get criticized for the same view a LOT. I keep telling people adultery is defined as a married person having sex with someone who is not their spouse. There is no exception listed for those who do it with permission. Meaning, even if the spouses agree, it's still adultery.
> 
> That said, we don't know that adultery was involved. It's easy to assume, but for all we know the guy with the gun was a high end drug dealer who was there to supply the party guests and some sh*t went down between him and a customer. Could have also been an ex, a stalker, or even a professional or personal rivalry.
> 
> It'd be nice if some witnesses came forward, even anonymously, and filled in the who and why.


agreed !!!


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> The book I referenced in another thread does a great job handling jealousy. The thing that is different for swingers/poly people don't seek to avoid it but to work through it. It takes both the willingness to be totally honest and accepting your partner's honesty as a reflection of the intimacy of them showing you exactly who they really are.
> 
> I know a small number, like 1 that I can think of, that broke up. But they had such a large number of issues, they would have ended up divorced anyway. And man was she ever well rid of him.


Every swinging couple I have known have broken up except for one and their marriage is strained. 

Your statement that it's not cheating if there's no deception means I can go out tonight and bang someone other than my wife and then immediately report it to her and all of a sudden it's not cheating ??? Arbitrator is correct. I strongly disagree with you


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

VladDracul said:


> To each his own. Personally, if I've got to swing to subsidize a lack of excitement and thrill in my own marriage and my life, I'm probably married to the wrong woman or have expectation that will ultimately knock my dyck in the dirt.
> As far as claims of happier marriages, many smokers, druggies, people hooked on all types of porn, et cetra , claim to have happier, more fulfilling lives.



good point !!


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Quality said:


> I'll be judgmental.
> 
> "swinging" is adultery.
> 
> ...



Agree 100 % and yes I also am judgmental and feel exactly as you do, Quality


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

LucasJackson said:


> I misjudged you by some of your previous posts. This is awesome. Great post. I don't buy into the "don't judge" crowd. In fact, they're judging you when they sell you that hooey. If somebody steals, I judge. If somebody kills, I judge. If somebody lies, betrays, and commits adultery. I judge them as being wrong. Don't like it? Tough sh*t. Judge me if you want. I couldn't care less.


I agree. We have a right to judge and we have a right to stay away from such people with such lifestyles. I agree with you Lucas


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

wmn1 said:


> I agree. We have a right to judge and we have a right to stay away from such people with such lifestyles. I agree with you Lucas


Most of us don't exactly hang out at churches either.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

becareful2 said:


> So you have no idea if those hundreds of swinging couples are still happily swinging today? Of course, when swinging couples meet, everybody has to put on a happy face. That doesn't really say much, though. I'd be interested to know of any follow-up to those studies to find out if those couples are still happily married and still into the swinging lifestyle.


and therein lies the problem. The stats that pro-swinging people use can easily be murky


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> Why do you need to soil the institution of traditional marriage then by pushing this philosophy.
> 
> I don't get you. Wouldn't it be more prudent for you and your wife not to be legally married but instead be in a committed poly-amorous relationship? Why would you entangle yourself with all the legal booby traps that go along with legal marriage. Why not just live together, have your family and then be free to sail on to newer seas once the shine wears off?
> 
> ...


I agree with bandit here. Further, what Lucas was saying is that this forum is filled with people who strongly believe in monogamy, and were betrayed. The last thing they need to be turned on to or have promoted to them is to somehow enjoy having their spouse get bedded by other people


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

wmn1 said:


> I agree with bandit here. Further, what Lucas was saying is that this forum is filled with people who strongly believe in monogamy, and were betrayed. The last thing they need to be turned on to or have promoted to them is to somehow enjoy having their spouse get bedded by other people


Then they can just bloody well tune out or find another forum, no? 

Swingers exist. Probably in greater number than you imagine. It's not their "responsibility" to ensure that the people who don't approve never have to get a whiff of the issue. Screw that.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> Agree. I don't see exposing anyone, unless they're committing a crime. If I saw someone robbing a bank, I'd go tell the police lol but, if my neighbors are swingers, or cheating, it's none of my business.
> 
> This thread, we are all offering different opinions - but IRL, interjecting opinions into people's lives is something I never really understood, about any topic.


So if you found out your best friend or one of you really close friend's husband was cheating on her, you wouldn't tell your friend?

I assume you would {or probably would ~ fear creeps in ~ it's hard standing up for your priciples}.

If so, then I'm really just drawing of bigger circle than you.

It's the same care, compassion, empathy, sense of outrage, upset at seeing your friend be deceived and lied to that you'd give a good friend informing her about her life.

Further, cheating is, in my opinion, worse than robbing a bank.

Somewhere there's a bank teller that's been both cheated on and robbed at his/her bank job that can tell you that their cheating spouse's affair hurt them much worse and more profoundly than being witness to a bank robbery.

It's also, according to many people that have suffered both {which I haven't so I'm just reporting what I've read}, worse than the loss of a child or being raped. You'd certainly expose a rapist and report him to the police so why keep such an abhorrent thing as an affair a secret. 

I KNOW it just seems more private and the whole LGBTV movement and Hollywood has us all confused in this permissive and tolerant society. We have been bombarded with mix messages like report crime but then don't be a rat, cops are awesome to cops are gangsters. In addition, the senseless and random acts of violence have us fearful of retribution {my words here even prompted a few fearful posters to warn me that I may get physically injured for doing it} but exposure really is looking out for your fellow man/woman even if they don't like it. When you tell a betrayed spouse the truth about their life and exposing the {perp - cheater - adulterer} you really are helping perp by holding them accountable for their self {and others} destructive behavior and, helping the victim{s} make sense of their lives and make proper choices with more facts. They probably won't appreciate it at the time very much because it's a very traumatic situation but it's still the right thing to do.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Quality said:


> I KNOW it just seems more private and the whole LGBTV movement and Hollywood has us all confused in this permissive and tolerant society. We have been bombarded with mix messages like report crime but then don't be a rat, cops are awesome to cops are gangsters.


That's swell and all, but swinging is not illegal. It is not a criminal act. It is, in fact, none of your damn business. Outing swingers falls into the same category as outing Taco eaters because you don't like Tacos.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> For the record, swinging and open are two different things. Learn the vernacular.


You are splitting hairs. Both are adultery, and swinging is usually brought up as a subset of open marriage

I of course agree with Deidre


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Then they can just bloody well tune out or find another forum, no?
> 
> Swingers exist. Probably in greater number than you imagine. It's not their "responsibility" to ensure that the people who don't approve never have to get a whiff of the issue. Screw that.


Yah I don't get why some topics would be censored in a discussion forum which is supposed to be about ideas.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

LucasJackson said:


> If mom and I were swingers and banging other people we'd tell them we were swingers and what that meant. If we couldn't or wouldn't tell them then that means we think there's something wrong with what we're doing. If the swinger really believes in swinging then they'd have no problem telling the kids. No need to describe specific acts. Suggesting that is just being glib.


Yes, it's pretty sad Lucas that swingers justify their lifestyles but then it's taboo to let their kids know what's going on. If they were so big on it, then why wouldn't it be a positive thing to share ?? The answer is that there's a reason why less than 5 % of the US married population is involved in this lifestyle. Hint: because it's not a good thing


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

wmn1 said:


> The answer is that there's a reason why less than 5 % of the US married population is involved in this lifestyle. Hint: because it's not a good thing


5% of the US adult population is over 12 million people. That's on par with the gay population.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> 5% of the US adult population is over 12 million people. That's on par with the gay population.


Furthermore, not everyone values being part of the "majority" as inherently useful.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> The ostensible motivations is "caring for them". But in truth it is nothing more than pride. Somehow god chose THEM to punish recalcitrant children. That has to be one hell of a mind blow. The idea that somehow exposing a non-believer who does not attain their morality from the exposer's god, who does not even think that there is a moral problem with their actions is not going to suddenly change the non-believer's heart or mind is not very smart. All it is likely to do is make the exposer look like the jerk they are.



They can think I'm a jerk all they want. The truth will still be out there and they will either learn from the consequences of their behavior or they won't. I'll remain hopeful for them nonetheless and when they choose to turn their life around and {if Christian} receive the gift of repentance, I'll be there for them too.

My wife very much hated me for fully exposing her affair but now she's so appreciative that I cared enough to fight for her and our family. 


Do you think the "impact team", the group or individuals responsible for hacking AshMad is/was/are a jerk{s}??? I think they are heroes and social justice warriors for love, honor and decency.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Quality said:


> Do you think the "impact team", the group or individuals responsible for hacking AshMad is/was/are a jerk{s}??? I think they are heroes and social justice warriors for love, honor and decency.


Of course you do. 

Luckily for us, you were born in the West and indoctrinated into Christianity rather than Islam. That kind of zealotry and unflinching self righteousness is what motivates young men in the middle east to strap on bomb vests.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

becareful2 said:


> Like I've said and like MJJEAN has said, when swingers get divorced, they usually file under irreconcilable differences, so even if they were once happily swinging and defend the lifestyle like you do now, their divorce will not reflect the destruction of their marriage due to the swinging lifestyle. I am not aware of any studies that accurately pinpoint how many couples divorce because of swinging. It's impossible as far as I can tell, unless they can get an honest survey of divorced couples and specifically ask them if their divorce was due to swinging.
> 
> You keep pushing your "peer reviewed" references, but do those studies do any follow-up on the happily swinging couples five years out, ten years out, to see if they have divorced due to swinging not working for them or due to other reasons? Just about every swinging couple you meet will put on a happy face. Who wouldn't? However, you also haven't been able to keep in touch with the hundreds of happy couples you've met along your journey, so who is to know if they're still swinging or not? You don't know the status of their marriages, right?
> 
> If you meet 100 happy swinging couples, and lost contact with 60 of those couples, you would still tell us that you've met 100 happy swinging couples. Even if 30 of the 60 couples whom you've lost contact with ended up in divorce court because swinging didn't work out for them, they'll still file their reason under irreconcilable differences, and their stat will get lost among the millions of other monogamous divorces. Those 30 couples will not report back to you or your swinging groups that they have decided to divorce because of the falllout from swinging, so the personal stats that you give us are highly questionable. That's all I'm saying. It doesn't really take a genius to figure that out.


plus it all depends on how the questions are asked in surveys. I have seen some of these surveys and they are worded with an objective outcome in mind. AT the end of the day, if this was such a great lifestyle, why don't more people do it ?


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Yah I don't get why some topics would be censored in a discussion forum which is supposed to be about ideas.



Because swingers are just another wanton subset of adulterers and this is the forum "coping with infidelity" where, mostly, betrayed spouses come to read and get help dealing with their adulterating spouse.

I KNOW you feel differently. That you're different than "cheaters" because it's consensual. And I know this feeling of pretension motivates you to come to the table with your "ideas" and "notions" as though swinging adultery is a anodyne life choice irrelevant to the real pain and suffering being endured by many of the betrayed persons on this sub-forum {some of whom, no doubt, have no issue with swingers and some who probably do}.

It's still offensive, vulgar and insensitive.

It's tough to tell but it's interesting to note that most {not all} of supportive posts you've received here from persons that post primarily on this sub-forum are or were wayward spouses at one time. Probably a residual fog as they still struggle with discerning right from wrong. Maybe because they want or got grace they are eager to send it around to everyone regardless of their behavior. Conversely, those supporting my position (and Lucas's) have been primarily betrayed spouses. We've developed a deeper understanding and appreciation for marriage in our own life and as a social construct, religion aside. 

But I don't make or enforce the rules here so I'm not telling you how or where to post.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

becareful2 said:


> Daughter upset with swinging parents
> 
> My Parents Are Swingers and It Makes Me Really Uncomfortable
> Should I confront them, or go hide somewhere for the rest of my life?
> ...



Bingo !!!!


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

becareful2 said:


> Their new book, “A Modern Marriage,” is a chronicle of Christy and Mark’s lives as swingers: the group sex, the jealousy, the secrecy, the STDs and hygiene issues, the emotional and psychological dangers.
> 
> They’ve been married for 14 years, and swinging, they insist, has made their marriage that much stronger.
> 
> ...


exactly. Selfishness rears it's ugly head in this kind of lifestyle. Hedonism over morals and ethics


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

wmn1 said:


> plus it all depends on how the questions are asked in surveys. I have seen some of these surveys and they are worded with an objective outcome in mind. AT the end of the day, if this was such a great lifestyle, why don't more people do it ?


I think every bit of the research on infidelity, swinging, etc. is 99% horse sh*t. Especially if you're surveying adulterers. Their character traits are secrets and lies. They can't be honest with themselves or people they took vows with so they darn sure aren't going to be honest on a survey.

Cheaters and swingers (both adulterers by definition) are never going to be honest about anything that could paint them in a bad light. Shed some truth on their character. That's why the research is all bullsh*t.


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## happy2gether (Dec 6, 2015)

LucasJackson said:


> I think every bit of the research on infidelity, swinging, etc. is 99% horse sh*t. Especially if you're surveying adulterers. Their character traits are secrets and lies. They can't be honest with themselves or people they took vows with so they darn sure aren't going to be honest on a survey.
> 
> Cheaters and swingers (both adulterers by definition) are never going to be honest about anything that could paint them in a bad light. Shed some truth on their character. That's why the research is all bullsh*t.



yet you see no problem with using * to CHEAT the word filter here?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Quality said:


> It's still offensive, vulgar and insensitive.


Funny, because that's exactly how I see children who grow up in oppressive religious circumstances. And just like you, I can produce volumes of citations from those who have escaped. 

Residual fog my hairy yellow butt.

I have to make some additions to my kill file before I get banned for arguing with people who make up other's reality for a living.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Funny, because that's exactly how I see children who grow up in oppressive religious circumstances. And just like you, I can produce volumes of citations from those who have escaped.
> 
> Residual fog my hairy yellow butt.


Now we know Cletus is blonde!



> I have to make some additions to my kill file before I get banned for arguing with people who make up other's reality for a living.


Woa. A person can get PAID for that?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Now we know Cletus is blonde!


No, I'm yeller. Look at my avatar, for freakin' sake.



> Woa. A person can get PAID for that?


Nope. But they sure can convince themselves of how f'ing right they are, any evidence to the contrary notwithstanding.

You're going to have to be on your own for a while on this one. I can't stay civil much longer in the face of so much nauseating self-righteousness.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> No, I'm yeller. Look at my avatar, for freakin' sake.


I cannot look at your avatar. Doofus. And you are no doofus.



> Nope. But they sure can convince themselves of how f'ing right they are, any evidence to the contrary notwithstanding.


I remember when my mother was trying to talk to my nephew about religion. He was making cogent arguments. She had her virtual fingers in her ears and spun everything he said into something he DIDN'T say. He finally said, G'ma I can't believe you think that crap.



> You're going to have to be on your own for a while on this one. I can't stay civil much longer in the face of so much nauseating self-righteousness.


I blocked them pages ago. I have a great deal of respect for our lovely mods and would not want to cause them trouble.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

double post


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Cletus said:


> Funny, because that's exactly how I see children who grow up in oppressive religious circumstances. And just like you, I can produce volumes of citations from those who have escaped.
> 
> Residual fog my hairy yellow butt.
> 
> I have to make some additions to my kill file before I get banned for arguing with people who make up other's reality for a living.


No "oppressive religious circumstances" here at my home. Just normal everyday Christian family.

It's actually NOT funny, but that's exactly how I see children who grow up in uber- tolerant, do whatever you want, there is no right and wrong circumstances absent a parent or two {who may even be there but too busy focusing on their own genitals to be bothered with parenting much}. Adulterers make horrible parents. And unlike you, I can produce volumes of citations from those who have escaped and survived such circumstances. Our prisons are actually full of the ones that didn't.

Residual fog ~ yup. And if I was advising your wife on whether or not to recover with you years ago, the support you give here to the swingers, alternate lifestyles, relativism, the "sex is just sex" crowd and your hatred and anger towards Christians would be a fairly good indicator, to me, that you're too substantial a risk to recover with. She can obviously do whatever she wants {and has}, but I can hardly envision you being individually remorseful at all for what you did. In other words, you appear sorry you got caught and you might legitimately commit to never doing it again, but YOU don't regret it. Rather, it appears, you've made it a part of your life experience and made you who you are today. Hope I'm wrong but you are getting awfully mad for a guy that isn't even a swinger.

Hope you haven't put it this in the bozo bin just yet.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I think I created a monster.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Quality said:


> So if you found out your best friend or one of you really close friend's husband was cheating on her, you wouldn't tell your friend?
> 
> I assume you would {or probably would ~ fear creeps in ~ it's hard standing up for your priciples}.
> 
> ...


Intervening for the sake of saving my friend further loss of her dignity, etc...because her husband is cheating, for example, is a far cry from telling everyone and anyone who will listen that my neighbors are swingers. It's gossip and honestly, this isn't how I view the faith. The faith or the Bible isn't a tool by which we sit on a throne judging others. I don't believe that swinging is edifying to a marriage, from a secular perspective, actually - but it's my personal view and not my place to run around town telling people that there's swingers among us, beware. 

Remember the Bible story about the woman caught in adultery, and the townspeople wanted to stone her to death, because that was considered sinful and also a crime, legally. But Jesus said 'whoever is without sin, can cast the first stone,' and they all left. While it can be interpreted literally, it can also be a parable of sorts that should tell us that we are not to be the judge and jury over someone's life choices.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> Intervening for the sake of saving my friend further loss of her dignity, etc...because her husband is cheating, for example, is a far cry from telling everyone and anyone who will listen that my neighbors are swingers. It's gossip and honestly, this isn't how I view the faith. The faith or the Bible isn't a tool by which we sit on a throne judging others. I don't believe that swinging is edifying to a marriage, from a secular perspective, actually - but it's my personal view and not my place to run around town telling people that there's swingers among us, beware.
> 
> Remember the Bible story about the woman caught in adultery, and the townspeople wanted to stone her to death, because that was considered sinful and also a crime, legally. But Jesus said 'whoever is without sin, can cast the first stone,' and they all left. While it can be interpreted literally, it can also be a parable of sorts that should tell us that we are not to be the judge and jury over someone's life choices.


Yes.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Cletus said:


> Wow, not me at all.
> 
> If I found out my parents were swingers, I'd blink twice, close my lower jaw, and get on with my day. The sexual proclivities of another person, short of practicing pedophilia, have no bearing whatsoever on how I view their worth as a human.
> 
> Now that you mention it, my mother did tell the story of how one set of friends inquired if they might be willing to swing. This would have been about 1965. You never know - they could be your neighbors!


YEP! Because in reality - WE DON'T really know our parents sex lives. Our children see us as PARENTS, doing grownup things. They don't go out with us to parties, when we were in college, doing oral sex in cars, anal sex, etc. Things they don't want to know or need to know.

I know of many swinger/OR parents who are good caring loving parents. But on special weekends, they are total **** / stud freaks. 
Even parents of young adults - we'll talk about sexual things, that would make their kids (OMG! - Even if they do the same sex acts themselves) They don't need to know what exactly goes on in the bedroom.

Example, look up with google image search: Folsom Street Fair
(NOT safe for work)
When kids move out of home, us parent's be doing things. 

Our son is a toddler... we have started making plans for what we may want to do (travel and such) when he's off to college. Not talking about doing an orgy lifestyle everyday, but just seeing the world and doing different things.

Chances are, your parent's have done anal. And its possible it was dad on bottom. I know guys that like that, who are NOT homosexual.

There is a joke about suburbia... yeah, they are generally safer than the city, but still - behind closed doors, there is a LOT OF swinging going on.

I will admit something: I am very much aware of about 4 swinger parties a month. There are easily hundreds of small ones all over with 4~8 people.
In my life time, I've only been to such parties twice. And I didn't do intercourse with other women.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Quality said:


> What you call harassment, I call free speech. I think as long as what I'm saying (and all I'm doing is saying it ~~ no threats or chasing the people around) is true, it's protected speech. I could picket the sidewalk in front of my neighbors house with signs saying "Guard your spouse ~ swingers live here" and from my understanding there is little that can be done as long as I don't step foot on the private property. I know this because I've picketed the workplaces of several cheaters when companies refuse to take action against cheating co-workers or, once, the company was owned by the other man.
> 
> Besides, I have yet to hear about a single wayward (including swingers) take a witness stand in open court to defend their lifestyle. They sure love to threaten lawsuits ~ but they either can't find an attorney to take their worthless case or they don't want to buck up a $10,000 retainer. I just don't think it's harassment anyway.
> 
> Though, anyone can sue anyone for anything so it's always a good thing to have a best friend bulldog attorney in your back pocket. Maybe I should even set up an exposure public service charity and as one of the board of directors, I could have very limited personal liability.


very true

Don't listen to Cletus. I feel he's simply disgruntled


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> Intervening for the sake of saving my friend further loss of her dignity, etc...because her husband is cheating, for example, is a far cry from telling everyone and anyone who will listen that my neighbors are swingers. It's gossip and honestly, this isn't how I view the faith. The faith or the Bible isn't a tool by which we sit on a throne judging others. I don't believe that swinging is edifying to a marriage, from a secular perspective, actually - but it's my personal view and not my place to run around town telling people that there's swingers among us, beware.
> 
> Remember the Bible story about the woman caught in adultery, and the townspeople wanted to stone her to death, because that was considered sinful and also a crime, legally. But Jesus said 'whoever is without sin, can cast the first stone,' and they all left. While it can be interpreted literally, it can also be a parable of sorts that should tell us that we are not to be the judge and jury over someone's life choices.


First ~ that verse you are referring to is about hypocritical judging.


It's OK to be judgmental as long as you aren't a hypocrite. I have repented of my past sins and am not currently sinning. We are actually called to do it. That verse I quoted before about exposing the deeds of darkness and ~~



> John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.





> 2. Psalm 94:16 Who will rise up for me against the wicked? Who will stand for me against those who practice iniquity?





> Matthew 18:15-17 “If your brother sins against you, go and confront him while the two of you are alone. If he listens to you, you have won back your brother. But if he doesn’t listen, take one or two others with you so that ‘every word may be confirmed by the testimony of two or three witnesses. If, however, he ignores them, tell it to the congregation. If he also ignores the congregation, regard him as an unbeliever and a tax collector.


As Christians we are supposed to be able to judge right from wrong and being silent is a sin.



> Ezekiel 3:18-19 If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked person shall die for his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand. But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die for his iniquity, but you will have delivered your soul.



Surely people don’t like their evil exposed and people don’t like you exposing anyone else so it's common that people take the easy way out and don’t expose them. It's like everyone wants to either guard them selves from judgment {because they are currently sinning} or keep a door open to sin later on and fear this exposure thing could ruin it for them. What you are essentially saying is, I'm going to sin and I don't want anyone to know it versus I'm going to try not to ever sin again and, if I do, I want my brothers and sisters to hold me accountable for my behavior. So unbelievers twist that scripture around to read that no one is allowed to judge anything {while allowing themselves to judge me {and all Christians} as one of those loony bin, jerk, self-righteous Christians}

Don't believe or don't like it ~ read and study your bible. I'm not the problem. These aren't my rules. I'd rather soak in my hottub than worry about what my neighbors and friends are doing. I'm really just the messenger. It's just that way too many believers today will go against God’s Word and even stand up for the devil and fight against God by condoning and supporting wickedness. Too many believers stay quiet whenever they’re on the hot seat they hush up in fear of man. Jesus spoke up, Stephen spoke up, Paul spoke up so why would you {figurative you - this is all hypothetical and not personal} be quiet? We must not be afraid to rebuke others. If someone is going astray from Christ are you going to be silent so they won’t hate you or are you going to humbly and lovingly say something? 

If you remain quiet then you start joining wickedness and remember God is not mocked. Stop being part of the world, expose it instead and save lives. The person who truly loves Christ is the one who’s going to stand up for Christ no matter if we lose friends, family, or even if the world hates us. Haters gonna hate.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Always, always, always, always condoms. Always. Did I mention Always? Regular testing with results available to anyone who wants them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yeah sure, condoms makes this behavior rational and moral. Not !!


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

​


NobodySpecial said:


> What it is is none of your business. My morality is MY business and none of yours. I will keep my nose out of your hypocrisy. You can keep your nose out of my bedroom.


except for one thing. You aren't keeping it out of your bedroom. You are actually expanding it outside of your house and seeking prey. So your argument is false


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

ReformedHubby said:


> At this point I'm starting to ask myself if you're even for real. I guess I just can't wrap my head around caring that much about others people's lives. I'm not you. But for me that would be exhausting. Picketing companies that employ cheaters, wanting to expose swingers. That takes a lot of time. Life is much too short for that. This ain't the political forum, but I am glad I don't live in your version of America. Oh, and for the record, I love me some Jesus too.



here's the answer to this. If you befriend swingers, you are eating dinner with them and you are looking across the table and thinking "i'd like to hang out with these people" and they are looking across the table saying "I'd like to get in both of their pants". Big difference. Stop attacking Quality


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> ''Exposing'' people in their sins to family, friends and anyone who will listen seems very Old Testament-esque. lol


I believe in exposure to a large extent. Not all the time but most


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Quality said:


> As Christians we are supposed to be able to judge right from wrong and being silent is a sin.


Since you claim to be a Christian, am I right to presume you think adultery is okay and certainly not always wrong?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

wmn1 said:


> I believe in exposure to a large extent. Not all the time but most


So morality to you is something you apply inconsistently via a sliding scale?


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

LucasJackson said:


> Actually you're the one who connected love for children with romantic love. You made that comparison, I said it was gross and illegal. Let's keep it factual.  As for "stats" on any of these things, that would be absolutely impossible to gather with even a remote degree of accuracy. I dismiss all of them no matter which group they're about.


NO, I DID NOT. It's like English is NOT your primary language or something. You are the ONLY person who injected SEXUAL love with children into this discussion. Nobody else was confused.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

so, my wife an i have attended several events at a local swingers club. one weekend a month, our local swingers club conducts a BDSM only event. they do not make accommodations for those who want to "play" during the BDSM night. my wife and i practice a particular kind of BDSM and we often look for people who are open minded enough to discuss such things without actually judging us. considering that our local swingers club happens to be the best place to meet other kinksters like ourselves, we are often exposed to those who engage in alternative lifestyles, including those who swing. for the most part, they are stable and non-judgmental. its easy to spot the ones who are falling apart. just pay attention for a few minutes and you will see them. that said, most of those who we have met have been happily swinging for years. the ones who are new are easy to spot. they dont care about their spouse. my wife and i like to learn more about BDSM. we enjoy looking at each other to see if we like a particular idea or not. those who all the swingers say will die out are the ones who dont seem to give a crap if their spouses have a good time. all that said, it seems to me, from personal experience, that successful swingers really dont care about other swingers. they avoid forming strong bonds with other people. they care almost exclusively about their spouses.

in case your wondering about my religious background, i am Pentecostal.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

TaDor said:


> NO, I DID NOT. It's like English is NOT your primary language or something. You are the ONLY person who injected SEXUAL love with children into this discussion. Nobody else was confused.


As I recall, you did. 

You compared the romantic love swingers supposedly can have for multiple {sexual} partners with being able to love multiple children.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and call it just a poor analogy. I don't think you meant romantic love for your children.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> The idea to expose cheaters *by the BS* to the other spouse and any other involved parties has the specific goal of waking the WS their fog. I don't think it is intended as a general scarlet letter usually.


My reason to expose was to NOT let her get away with telling people "we broke, there was no affair" - and I was public about NOT wanting anything to do with her again. It made her more angry than wake her up back then.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

wmn1 said:


> Bingo !!!!


Bingo what? You pasted 4 examples out of what MILLIONS of people do in the USA... as being the standard fact?

That is not how you wing arguments.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Quality said:


> First ~ that verse you are referring to is about hypocritical judging.
> 
> 
> It's OK to be judgmental as long as you aren't a hypocrite. I have repented of my past sins and am not currently sinning. We are actually called to do it. That verse I quoted before about exposing the deeds of darkness and ~~
> ...


Jesus also said to shake the dust from your sandals ...if people weren't willing to hear your message. Not chastise, scold and coerce people into following Christ. I spoke my opinion earlier in the thread, and honestly, it has little to do with my faith - I just don't think that bringing outsiders into one's marriage is a wise move, or healthy, overall. And I can share that certainly, but to go from door to door, if I knew that my neighbors were swingers...alerting everyone to it, and asking them to shun them...is wrong. That's you're suggesting. What you're doing isn't loving. 

Where do you draw the line with your ''exposing'' people? If you know someone at work who is gay but doesn't want anyone to know, do you tell people? If you know that your neighbor is committing adultery, do you expose him/her? Actually, the loving thing to do according to Christ, is to tell the person what you think, and not others. 

But, I believe in religious freedom. God doesn't force us to come to Him. I left the faith for a while, and felt called back by God. But, God doesn't coerce us or shame us. He waits for us, and He lets us leave. I believe this anyways, but I wouldn't want to live in a land where religious freedom and the choice to not believe, didn't exist. 

I know you mean well, because my dad is a lot like you, in how he approaches Christianity. He believes in a fire and brimstone kind of witnessing. To each their own.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

TaDor said:


> NO, I DID NOT. It's like English is NOT your primary language or something. You are the ONLY person who injected SEXUAL love with children into this discussion. Nobody else was confused.


Are you claiming you didn't make the comparison by bringing parents with multiple children into the discussion? We can quote your words if you like.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> Jesus also said to shake the dust from your sandals ...if people weren't willing to hear your message. Not chastise, scold and coerce people into following Christ. I spoke my opinion earlier in the thread, and honestly, it has little to do with my faith - I just don't think that bringing outsiders into one's marriage is a wise move, or healthy, overall. And I can share that certainly, but to go from door to door, if I knew that my neighbors were swingers...alerting everyone to it, and asking them to shun them...is wrong. That's you're suggesting. What you're doing isn't loving.


I have removed the speck from my own eyes.

I am not and do not chastise, scold and coerce people into following Christ.

I don't and have never gone "door to door ~ alerting everyone ~ and asking them to shun them".





> If you know someone at work who is gay but doesn't want anyone to know, do you tell people?


I doubt it. I do feel it's a choice and a sin and I'm not a gay marriage supporter. Yet, I struggle with how to approach the same sex attraction issue as a Christian. I have empathy and compassion for the difficulties and consequences such lifestyle entails and, I suppose, feel called now to merely try to model Christian love and understanding such that if they ask me for help maybe I can help them make better choices or steer them to the answers they seek. I'd more likely pray for guidance if I was faced with keeping that secret on a case by case basis. I still think it's offensive to people that actually struggle with same sex attraction and, more particularly, other minorities to conflate such with people that clearly and unapologetically choose and promote adultery and obviously don't suffer or struggle with a compulsion to swing. 



> If you know that your neighbor is committing adultery, do you expose him/her? Actually, the loving thing to do according to Christ, is to tell the person what you think, and not others.


I most certainly would expose my neighbor if he is committing adultery. After we told the betrayed wife, we would confront him and tell him he needs to end it, immediately. I would rebuke him kindly, gently and humbly. If he refused, I'd bring in a couple other persons and maybe his pastor/minister/priest to confront him again. If he remained ardently rebellious ~ THEN more broad exposure would occur ~ probably starting with his close friends and family and quickly beyond that. The other woman's spouse would be told about the same time I confronted the wayward husband neighbor. Beats the betrayed wife having to do it herself. If the other woman/other man refused to stop, they'd more likely become the target of a very aggressive exposure campaign. I don't know him/her and they are interlopers in my friend's {neighbor's} marriage. 

If he did stop the affair ~ my wife and I would walk with them as coaches and accountability partners. 

If my neighbor were Islamic. I might not feel compelled to get involved. If my neighbor were non-Christian, I'd pray for guidance on a case by case basis but we would definitely expose to the betrayed spouse. 



> But, I believe in religious freedom. God doesn't force us to come to Him. I left the faith for a while, and felt called back by God. But, God doesn't coerce us or shame us. He waits for us, and He lets us leave. I believe this anyways, but I wouldn't want to live in a land where religious freedom and the choice to not believe, didn't exist.


If they feel shame, it's due to their shameful behavior. Exposure is a Christian duty and not, in itself, shameful or shaming behavior. If other people end up disassociating {"shunning"} the sinner, that's their right, right? 




> I know you mean well, because my dad is a lot like you, in how he approaches Christianity. He believes in a fire and brimstone kind of witnessing. To each their own.


You're young and exploring very mature concepts. I think that bodes well for you venturing NOW into thoughts, feelings, concepts that I didn't give 3 cow chips about when I was your age and I paid a hefty price {consequences} to learn these lessons and now I seek to help {not hurt} others. Somebody has to be brave ~ like your dad.

I also don't feel it's "to each their own" ~ truth and light just are what they are. It is a free country and anyone can deny truth if they want. 




> John 3:20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Quality said:


> It's tough to tell but it's interesting to note that most {not all} of supportive posts you've received here from persons that post primarily on this sub-forum are or were wayward spouses at one time. Probably a residual fog as they still struggle with discerning right from wrong. Maybe because they want or got grace they are eager to send it around to everyone regardless of their behavior.


Not me. The only woman I've ever had sex with beyond some limited fumbling around as a teenager is my wife.

If someone wants to swing and they are both in a agreement, I see no issue.



Quality said:


> But I don't make or enforce the rules here so I'm not telling you how or where to post.


It doesn't seem to stop you from being a jerk. I think you need to find some peace in your life.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Quality, it sounds like you did some things when you were young that you regret, and you would like to spare others the consequences that you yourself suffered. Is that accurate?

But other people may do those same things and not regret them. And even if they do come to regret them, isn't that part of their journey in life? They have to find their own peace, right? As much as you might care about them, is it really possible or even desirable to protect them from themselves? And is it really your responsibility?

To me, the swinger lifestyle is probably an orientation, just like being heterosexual or homosexual or bisexual. It is inborn, not something that is going to change. Accepting that can make life a whole lot easier.

If you tell someone to stop something that is inborn in them, they are probably just going to be irritated. Because even if they would (temporarily) stop the lifestyle, they are still oriented to it, much like a celibate person who is capable of and desires sexual activity.

All this said, you certainly have the right to follow your conscience, and to share your views. And we do sometimes hear people say on this site that they needed to hear some things that they did not necessarily want to hear, and were eventually grateful for the persistence some showed in sharing their views. 

But your care and concern might be better appreciated by people who do want to hear it, who would even seek it out from you. Just something to consider.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> I understand what you're saying, so if you had a porn habit, would you want your spouse telling everyone in your family? If you asked to have a threesome, would it be ok if your spouse told everyone in your family?
> 
> You see, if you're a believer, sin is sin. Adultery isn't the worst sin, and you probably sin. We all do. I don't see exposing as being a good way to handle the problems going on in your marriage.
> 
> I can understand what you're saying, but I personally see it as a vengeful act...not an act of 'charity.'


exposure is not vengeful. It is well deserved and earned for the wayward. And yes, other than perhaps murder, adultery is the worst sin

I have agreed with everything you said except this. Keep up the good work Deidre


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Except for that whole pesky lying deceit stuff!


lying and deceit is part of it but your focus is too narrow, way too narrow. Adultery is adultery. Plain and simple


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Most of us don't exactly hang out at churches either.


neither do I. Why do you suggest that I would ? I do believe that your attacks against religion in this thread is a bit overboard but then again, I wouldn't expect anything different from you !!!


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Then they can just bloody well tune out or find another forum, no?
> 
> Swingers exist. Probably in greater number than you imagine. It's not their "responsibility" to ensure that the people who don't approve never have to get a whiff of the issue. Screw that.


why should they Cletus ? You are on a 'COPING WITH INFIDELITY' forum and a few of you are defending spouses 'fvcking other people'. It's you who are out of place.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Quality said:


> So if you found out your best friend or one of you really close friend's husband was cheating on her, you wouldn't tell your friend?
> 
> I assume you would {or probably would ~ fear creeps in ~ it's hard standing up for your priciples}.
> 
> ...



agreed


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Cletus said:


> That's swell and all, but swinging is not illegal. It is not a criminal act. It is, in fact, none of your damn business. Outing swingers falls into the same category as outing Taco eaters because you don't like Tacos.


Noone said it was criminal. Some of us are calling it disgusting. 

You say it's none of our business ? Like we aren't entitled to an opinion ? This is a forum after all so we aren't allowed to opine unless we're Cletus of course. 

The deal Cletus is this. There are some of us who don't want sexual deviants in our lives who are trying to find 500 ways to get into my wife's pants. There are other people who read here and after listening to the open marriage people here , or swingers, some of us feel it's appropriate to denounce this type of activity in front of those other posters before those defending this lifestyle fvck up other people's marriages by encouraging them to do this crap.

Enough said


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Cletus said:


> 5% of the US adult population is over 12 million people. That's on par with the gay population.


I said 'less than 5'. Not sure where you missed that. 

Also it's less than 5% of the married population. 60 million married couples. That's 3 million. So check your numbers again


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Of course you do.
> 
> Luckily for us, you were born in the West and indoctrinated into Christianity rather than Islam. That kind of zealotry and unflinching self righteousness is what motivates young men in the middle east to strap on bomb vests.


look in the mirror Cletus. Your above statement shows that you are the intolerant one here


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Quality said:


> Because swingers are just another wanton subset of adulterers and this is the forum "coping with infidelity" where, mostly, betrayed spouses come to read and get help dealing with their adulterating spouse.
> 
> I KNOW you feel differently. That you're different than "cheaters" because it's consensual. And I know this feeling of pretension motivates you to come to the table with your "ideas" and "notions" as though swinging adultery is a anodyne life choice irrelevant to the real pain and suffering being endured by many of the betrayed persons on this sub-forum {some of whom, no doubt, have no issue with swingers and some who probably do}.
> 
> ...


well put, Quality


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

LucasJackson said:


> I think every bit of the research on infidelity, swinging, etc. is 99% horse sh*t. Especially if you're surveying adulterers. Their character traits are secrets and lies. They can't be honest with themselves or people they took vows with so they darn sure aren't going to be honest on a survey.
> 
> Cheaters and swingers (both adulterers by definition) are never going to be honest about anything that could paint them in a bad light. Shed some truth on their character. That's why the research is all bullsh*t.



agreed, Lucas. They live in the shadows and the research is skewed


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Swinging threads always get angry vitriol regardless of what subforum they appear in. People make up all kinds of stuff then convince themselves that it is the truth despite getting actual information from people who might have the ability to know. But I think having it in this particular subforum is making people particularly butt sore. Having played by the rules, their partners still betrayed them. And here are other people making different choices and being happy about it. It seems unfair. The truth is deceit is WRONG. Willfully causing your spouse pain is WRONG. In the context of marriages that have chosen monogamy, having sex with someone else is WRONG. And the betrayed spouse has every right and reason to be hurt. Whether you agree that non-monogamy can be responsible or not, I think we can all agree that deceit is NOT responsible and that the results are painful.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Personal said:


> So morality to you is something you apply inconsistently via a sliding scale?


exposure as long as it doesn't hurt the betrayed as well. It's not a hard concept


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

TaDor said:


> Bingo what? You pasted 4 examples out of what MILLIONS of people do in the USA... as being the standard fact?
> 
> That is not how you wing arguments.


No, I win arguments because if this concept was so great or special, then more than 3-5% of the population would be doing it. 

I sense a growing anger from the open marriage/swingers here. I love it because they are trying to justify their immoral and repugnant lifestyles and are failing miserably at it. I just hope that no third parties here are contemplating falling into this concept that it's somehow ok to have another man's junk in your wife's face


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Swinging threads always get angry vitriol regardless of what subforum they appear in. People make up all kinds of stuff then convince themselves that it is the truth despite getting actual information from people who might have the ability to know. But I think having it in this particular subforum is making people particularly butt sore. Having played by the rules, their partners still betrayed them. And here are other people making different choices and being happy about it. It seems unfair. The truth is deceit is WRONG. Willfully causing your spouse pain is WRONG. In the context of marriages that have chosen monogamy, having sex with someone else is WRONG. And the betrayed spouse has every right and reason to be hurt. Whether you agree that non-monogamy can be responsible or not, I think we can all agree that deceit is NOT responsible and that the results are painful.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Personally, I think swinging is almost a uniformly bad idea. I wouldn't dream of engaging in it (I'm not too crazy about sharing my tools, let alone my wife) and if anyone asks for my opinion, that's exactly what I'm going to tell them.

But publicly outing and shaming swingers? That's nuts, not to mention possibly violative of privacy laws.

If a couple mutually consents to swinging, and accepts the risk of the consequences that may bring to their marriage, what the f*ck is it to you folks who are so militant about the subject?


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Swinging threads always get angry vitriol regardless of what subforum they appear in. People make up all kinds of stuff then convince themselves that it is the truth despite getting actual information from people who might have the ability to know. But I think having it in this particular subforum is making people particularly butt sore. Having played by the rules, their partners still betrayed them. And here are other people making different choices and being happy about it. It seems unfair. The truth is deceit is WRONG. Willfully causing your spouse pain is WRONG. In the context of marriages that have chosen monogamy, having sex with someone else is WRONG. And the betrayed spouse has every right and reason to be hurt. Whether you agree that non-monogamy can be responsible or not, I think we can all agree that deceit is NOT responsible and that the results are painful.



Just because someone disapproved and doesn't practice that lifestyle doesn't mean they don't know what they are talking about in regards to it


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Experience is really good for understanding. Hell, I thought I new everything about parenting. Until I was a parent. I knew everything about cooking, until I started cooking. I just can't see how someone can say I have no experience with this, I have read some crap on the interwebs, but I know what there is to know about it.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

WOW there is a lot of hate for swingers here. It's pretty obvious why they are getting a bit defensive: they have been called repugnant, disgusting, inherently dishonest, etc. 

That would be like calling me inherently abusive because my wife and I live a 24/7 D/s relationship. 

I mean, I get it, this is the CWI forum, so people trigger here, but damn. Ya'll can be pretty freaking judgemental. You aren't "saving the innocents" by shaming swingers. Stating the risks is how you deter people from engaging in risky behavior.

Ya'll who call it immoral, and use that as your justification for kink shaming swingers, think about something... you are assigning your own judgements to other people who do not share your values. There are cultures all over the world that have existed for thousands of years that practice spouse swapping. Hell, if you were a male Eskimo hunter that ended up in the wrong area, being able to state that someone of the other tribe slept with your wife got you accepted as family. Letting a new stranger sleep with your wife ensured that they were accepted as family by the tribe, instead of killed for tresspassing.

So yeah, I get it, it makes no sense to you. It never will. But for the sake of common decency, would you please lay off the shaming?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Experience is really good for understanding. Hell, I thought I new everything about parenting. Until I was a parent. I knew everything about cooking, until I started cooking. I just can't see how someone can say I have no experience with this, I have read some crap on the interwebs, but I know what there is to know about it.


I understand what you are saying. However, some of us have lived it through others, and we are capable of putting ourselves mentally in others shoes. For example, I have never drowned but that doesn't mean that I can't envision my lungs filling up with water.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> WOW there is a lot of hate for swingers here. It's pretty obvious why they are getting a bit defensive: they have been called repugnant, disgusting, inherently dishonest, etc.
> 
> That would be like calling me inherently abusive because my wife and I live a 24/7 D/s relationship.
> 
> ...


Man, whatever. The swingers here have given it back as much as they have gotten it. Obvioulsy you haven't read objectively


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

wmn1 said:


> I understand what you are saying. However, some of us have lived it through others, and we are capable of putting ourselves mentally in others shoes. For example, I have never drowned but that doesn't mean that I can't envision my lungs filling up with water.


I am trying to process you actually saying you understand what drowning is like. Unbelievable. I can easily say that I know WAAAAY more swingers than you do. Or at least that you know are swingers. But I think you will stick to your magic thinking.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

GTdad said:


> Personally, I think swinging is almost a uniformly bad idea. I wouldn't dream of engaging in it (I'm not too crazy about sharing my tools, let alone my wife) and if anyone asks for my opinion, that's exactly what I'm going to tell them.
> 
> But publicly outing and shaming swingers? That's nuts, not to mention possibly violative of privacy laws.
> 
> If a couple mutually consents to swinging, and accepts the risk of the consequences that may bring to their marriage, what the f*ck is it to you folks who are so militant about the subject?


Easy answer, the swingers I have known in my life size unsuspecting people up, befriend them, party with them and then make their move. One couple tried it to me and my wife. Fortunately, we are well grounded, didn't fall for it and cut off all communication with that couple. While I am not the one who suggested to 'out' them, I think that the ones who target people and misrepresent their intentions should be outed to protect others. 

BTW, I hardly think that the poster who suggested 'outing' is saying to put an advertisement in USA Today. I think they were saying to spread the word among friends and families so that they don't get manipulated. I would like to know if I had a group of swingers among mutual friends.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

wmn1 said:


> Easy answer, the swingers I have known in my life size unsuspecting people up, befriend them, party with them and then make their move. One couple tried it to me and my wife. Fortunately, we are well grounded, didn't fall for it and cut off all communication with that couple. While I am not the one who suggested to 'out' them, I think that the ones who target people and misrepresent their intentions should be outed to protect others.


I think that couples can decline invitations to swing, or smoke a joint, or get involved in the latest direct marketing scheme without wringing their hands or getting overly hysterical about it.



wmn1 said:


> BTW, I hardly think that the poster who suggested 'outing' is saying to put an advertisement in USA Today. I think they were saying to spread the word among friends and families so that they don't get manipulated. I would like to know if I had a group of swingers among mutual friends.


I picture the poster in question as being nuts enough to picket outside the school the swingers' kids go to.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

GTdad said:


> I think that couples can decline invitations to swing, or smoke a joint, or get involved in the latest direct marketing scheme without wringing their hands
> or getting overly hysterical about it.
> 
> 
> ...



I disagree with you on both. I cut all swingers out of my life for a reason and want to know about future ones I come across. I think it's more complicated than refusing a cigarette. That's where I stand. Regarding the poster in question, I think a few people built that person up to be a zealot which is unfortunate. Deeply religious people aren't zealots because they are deeply religious.

Look, we'll just have to agree to disagree on both points.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

wmn1 said:


> Easy answer, the swingers I have known in my life size unsuspecting people up, befriend them, party with them and then make their move. One couple tried it to me and my wife. Fortunately, we are well grounded, didn't fall for it and cut off all communication with that couple. While I am not the one who suggested to 'out' them, I think that the ones who target people and misrepresent their intentions should be outed to protect others.
> 
> BTW, I hardly think that the poster who suggested 'outing' is saying to put an advertisement in USA Today. I think they were saying to spread the word among friends and families so that they don't get manipulated. I would like to know if I had a group of swingers among mutual friends.


Swingers do actively recruit. Especially financially advantaged, attractive couples. Been there and was actually offended that the couple in question thought that we would possibly be interested. They were nasty, unattractive, and over weight. They were aiming way out of their league. Be it swingers or not, stay in your swim lane.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> I am trying to process you actually saying you understand what drowning is like. Unbelievable. I can easily say that I know WAAAAY more swingers than you do. Or at least that you know are swingers. But I think you will stick to your magic thinking.


I am sure you do know more. I work hard to make sure they don't enter my life so I won't have a lot of them in my world.

However, we did have a 'swinging' group where I work. 9 couples in all. I still work with all 9 of the guys. I also know of 4 couples from my home town and one in my neighborhood. 

Of the 9 guys who I work with, and this took place in 2007-9, 8 are now divorced. The one couple who survived it have struggled. 20 kids displaced or living in broken homes. Guess how many of the guys went back to it ?? Two. One is going through a second divorce. 

My world, my magic thinking and IMO my correct thinking


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

wmn1 said:


> I am sure you do know more. I work hard to make sure they don't enter my life so I won't have a lot of them in my world.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




BOOM! SO there! Ha ha




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

*Swinging. What happens when the fun stops &amp; adultery steps in*

I think a lot of people have blended opinions about this, but the extreme supporters and detractors are the most vocal.

Personally - I'm a laissez faire kind of guy - your kink is of no concern to me unless you're wearing your dog collar around me putting it in my space. Then I might be either inclined to comment (possibly some slightly nasty, pithy but funny jab) or remove you from my life.

I did live on "boys town" in the '80s in Chicago - I had no problems with the couples OR the over the top kink because it wasn't out of line for the neighborhood.

But in my conservative neighborhood around my kids, you'd be a topic of conversation and a way to convey our values to our kids. Not judgmental - I don't care what you do - but values and morals - I do care that my kids understand the world and tell me what they think so we can talk about it.

And I do know about my parents sex life - they actively had sex, we never approached their bedroom when the door was shut, my dad had the Joy of sex in the '70's because I saw it in the open in the bedroom (wasn't hidden at all). I know they had sex into their 80s and I recently asked about their sex lives because he had prostate cancer treatments. And they are very conservative and he's a former minister. So I would imagine anyone less conservative is probably much more transparent and more so than they think.

My parents were "recruited" as well. They told me they went to a couples house in our town for dinner and afterward the couple split up and split my parents and asked if my dad liked the wife. So yes they were swingers and the "friendship" was all a ploy to have sex with my mom. Well my parents left of course. They told us this story recently though it happened in the 70s.

Personally I believe boundaries in like and marriage are important. I don't want to open myself to another woman. I reserve that for my wife. I believe I could easily become emotionally attached if I didn't have boundaries - that's why they exist. And I have a very happy relationship with no desire to screw it up over sex with a stranger.

I do understand the dilemma bisexual women face in marriage to a man and get that's why a lot of people swing. To me it's maybe the best of several bad choices available. But if I was married to a bisexual who wanted to satisfy that need I might have to end the relationship - I guess I wouldn't know unless I was there.

And I get the kinksters whose kink involves multiples or extreme personality types (need a d or s or gangbang, etc). There again - I would reach the conclusion we were not sexually comparable and have to release them and move on.

Can't imagine a scenario with a straight couple just wanting more variety as doing anything but harm to a marriage by acting out. Just my $.02




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

TheTruthHurts said:


> I think a lot of people have blended opinions about this, but the extreme supporters and detractors are the most vocal.


I'm an extreme supporter. 

I have never swung. Probably never will. Don't know any out swingers. Don't have an opinion on whether it's a good idea or not.

I will shout from the highest rooftop at the top of my voice for your right to swing if you want, and get very vocal when you decide that it's your right to run around imposing your morality on anyone else's mutually consented adult sexual behavior.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Maybe it's just the scene around here, but the swinger couples that we have met just ask if your into that sort of thing and if you say no, they don't bring it up. And, since our biggest and most regular bdsm event happens to take place at a dedicated swingers club, we have met quite a few. 

It's been my experience that swinger couples that have strong marriages make good company for non swinging fun, like going out and playing pokemon go, window shopping, fishing, etc. People who have weak marriages are not good company. Simple as that. 

That said, we have met a few who shouldn't be swinging. They weren't swinging because they love to have fun together. They were swinging because they DIDN'T love each other. You can usually tell the difference by the way they look at each other. If one of them looks like they are asking the other permission, they probably shouldn't be swinging. If they don't even look at each other at all, then they definitely shouldn't be swinging. They are probably going to fall apart at some point. 

If they look at each other with a twinkle in their eye and a knowing smile, they are looking to enjoy each others excitement. Personally, I find no offense to being approached. Especially since the kink community in my area is so enmeshed with the swinger community. There is no way for them to know if we are into it without asking. It's the ones that ignore each other once they are around other people that are trouble. If they are willing to ignore the person that is supposed to be there partner in everything... well, they are headed for trouble at some point. My wife and I have met some like that. They don't respect boundaries. Fortunately for us, they are the minority in our location. They usually get pushed away by both the kink community AND they swinger community. Nobody wants to interact with them.

Regardless of where I find them, I always love seeing couples that have been married for years and years who still have that twinkle in their eyes when they look at each other. And it doesn't matter to me at all what they do to fuel their excitement for each other.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

wmn1 said:


> I understand what you are saying. However, some of us have lived it through others, and we are capable of putting ourselves mentally in others shoes. For example, I have never drowned but that doesn't mean that I can't envision my lungs filling up with water.


I actually drowned once. 

I can assure you, you don't have a clue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

As'laDain said:


> I actually drowned once.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I almost did as a kid. I got pulled out in tune though. And I believe you can imagine it. Guess it depends on your imagination, right? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

TheTruthHurts said:


> I almost did as a kid. I got pulled out in tune though. And I believe you can imagine it. Guess it depends on your imagination, right?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's hard to imagine sensations that you have never experienced. I was not conscious by the time my lungs started filling. But I remember everything leading up to the point where I blacked out... coming close to it is not the same.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I'm an extreme supporter.
> 
> I have never swung. Probably never will. Don't know any out swingers. Don't have an opinion on whether it's a good idea or not.


"Out" such that your neighbors or coworkers know is a very bad idea. I can attest to that.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

As'laDain said:


> It's hard to imagine sensations that you have never experienced. I was not conscious by the time my lungs started filling. But I remember everything leading up to the point where I blacked out... coming close to it is not the same.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




Yes I was there. I didn't black out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

TheTruthHurts said:


> I almost did as a kid. I got pulled out in tune though. And I believe you can imagine it. Guess it depends on your imagination, right?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


How do you know you got pulled out in time? What if you died that day and this is the afterlife? :wink2:


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

*Re: Swinging. What happens when the fun stops &amp; adultery steps in*



TheTruthHurts said:


> I think a lot of people have blended opinions about this, but the extreme supporters and detractors are the most vocal.
> 
> Personally - I'm a laissez faire kind of guy - your kink is of no concern to me unless you're wearing your dog collar around me putting it in my space. Then I might be either inclined to comment (possibly some slightly nasty, pithy but funny jab) or remove you from my life.
> 
> ...



very well put, Truth


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> "Out" such that your neighbors or coworkers know is a very bad idea. I can attest to that.


I think anyone who reads this thread can attest to that...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

TheTruthHurts said:


> I almost did as a kid. I got pulled out in tune though. And I believe you can imagine it. Guess it depends on your imagination, right?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



very well put again. When I was 8, a 13 year old bully held me under water until I was out of air and then as I opened my mouth, he let me up. I hacked for a few minutes. My brother ran over after we got out of the pool and kicked his ass. As'ladain is wrong. While I didn't drown, I caught enough of a glimpse to know what I was facing.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> Maybe it's just the scene around here, but the swinger couples that we have met just ask if your into that sort of thing and if you say no, they don't bring it up. And, since our biggest and most regular bdsm event happens to take place at a dedicated swingers club, we have met quite a few.
> 
> It's been my experience that swinger couples that have strong marriages make good company for non swinging fun, like going out and playing pokemon go, window shopping, fishing, etc. People who have weak marriages are not good company. Simple as that.
> 
> ...


I disagree with the concept that swingers have strong marriages (yes I am awaiting a barrage of criticism for that one) and I can attest that some of my best friends have relatively weak marriages and they are great to hang out with. Their problems arise when they go home.

So disagreed all around


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

I personally don't see the difference between swinging and having an affair. As for it being all-around consensual, I know a guy who gets off on having his wife cheat on him behind his back. It's not swinging but it's not quite cheating either. What ever. I'm not going tell anybody to stop what they're doing if they're not hurting their family. But I have a right to be disgusted if it disgusts me.

I never ate s**t but I'm sure I wouldn't like it. If I find out you eat s**t, I don't care what kind of soap you use, excuse me if I don't shake your hand.

Is that judgemental?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

wmn1 said:


> very well put again. When I was 8, a 13 year old bully held me under water until I was out of air and then as I opened my mouth, he let me up. I hacked for a few minutes. My brother ran over after we got out of the pool and kicked his ass. As'ladain is wrong. While I didn't drown, I caught enough of a glimpse to know what I was facing.


You know what it feels like to be close. You would probably say that you know what a cluster headache feels like because you have had a migraine too...

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

KillerClown said:


> I personally don't see the difference between swinging and having an affair. As for it being all-around consensual, I know a guy who gets off on having his wife cheat on him behind his back. It's not swinging but it's not quite cheating either. What ever. I'm not going tell anybody to stop what they're doing if they're not hurting their family. But I have a right to be disgusted if it disgusts me.
> 
> I never ate s**t but I'm sure I wouldn't like it. If I find out you eat s**t, I don't care what kind of soap you use, excuse me if I don't shake your hand.
> 
> Is that judgemental?


It is. But we all have the right to judge for ourselves. We all get to choose with whom we hang out and with whom we don't. No foul there.

Wait wouldn't the metaphor be better as I don't care what mouthwash you use, you won't kiss me?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

One thing I will say is that I don't run around calling proselytizers disgusting despite feeling that way. Not saying you did, KC. But others have called me that... and worse. Just a thought.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Hey, you don't want to talk to them, fine. You don't see kinksters and swingers running around telling you that you are disgusting. And that is the point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> Hey, you don't want to talk to them, fine. You don't see kinksters and swingers running around telling you that you are disgusting. And that is the point.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Did you miss the posts by "Quality" advocating outing swingers to bosses, co-workers, friends, neighbors, and everyone else within earshot? 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> Hey, you don't want to talk to them, fine. You don't see kinksters and swingers running around telling you that you are disgusting. And that is the point.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In this very thread they do call normal people prudes, which is not true.


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> It is. But we all have the right to judge for ourselves. We all get to choose with whom we hang out and with whom we don't. No foul there.
> 
> Wait wouldn't the metaphor be better as I don't care what mouthwash you use, you won't kiss me?


I don't know. Are you kissable?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

KillerClown said:


> I don't know. Are you kissable?


I definitely don't eat **** anyway!


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> I definitely don't eat **** anyway!


If you engage in oral sex you do. Especially with women. It's a occupational hazard of going down on women. Not their fault but tests have a shown that a lot of sh*t residue makes it way to the vagina. That makes most of us sh*t eaters.


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> One thing I will say is that I don't run around calling proselytizers disgusting despite feeling that way. Not saying you did, KC. But others have called me that... and worse. Just a thought.


I wouldn't walk up to somebody and tell them they're disgusting if that's what you mean. If they asked me it's different story.

“Am I hideous, Jane?
Very, sir: you always were, you know.”


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Did you miss the posts by "Quality" advocating outing swingers to bosses, co-workers, friends, neighbors, and everyone else within earshot?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


Yeah, I saw that. It's people like him that make it hard for anyone who is different to live their own lives as they see fit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

KillerClown said:


> I personally don't see the difference between swinging and having an affair. As for it being all-around consensual, I know a guy who gets off on having his wife cheat on him behind his back. It's not swinging but it's not quite cheating either. What ever. I'm not going tell anybody to stop what they're doing if they're not hurting their family. But I have a right to be disgusted if it disgusts me.
> 
> I never ate s**t but I'm sure I wouldn't like it. If I find out you eat s**t, I don't care what kind of soap you use, excuse me if I don't shake your hand.
> 
> Is that judgemental?


no it's not judgmental. And even if it was, we do have a right to judge. I agree with what you said above


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

```

```



As'laDain said:


> You know what it feels like to be close. You would probably say that you know what a cluster headache feels like because you have had a migraine too...
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know what a lot of things feel like that you don't and I am sure it's vice versa. So what's your point ???


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

LucasJackson said:


> In this very thread they do call normal people prudes, which is not true.


and there were attacks against Quality over his religion too. But I am sure Quality's critics are soooo beyond reproach themselves :scratchhead:


Last time I checked, there's nothing wrong with being religious


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> Ya'll who call it immoral, and use that as your justification for kink shaming swingers, think about something... you are assigning your own judgements to other people who do not share your values.


But when you and others rip on me, tell me I can't or shouldn't expose people, mischaracterize me calling me names and "judgmental" aren't you/they also "assigning their own judgments to other people who do not share your values"

So yeah, I get it, it makes no sense to you. It never will. But for the sake of common decency, would you please lay off the shaming? [/QUOTE]

Define common decency?

I'm just living my very common faith so maybe you, for the sake of common decency should stop swinging and lay off hating and shaming Christians for merely practicing their faith. 



nothingspecial said:


> It is. But we all have the right to judge for ourselves. We all get to choose with whom we hang out and with whom we don't. No foul there.



Except you are set out and determined to keep your sins a secret denying the great majority of "common decency lov'in" monogamous persons full disclosure such that they can freely choose with whom they hang out with and whom they don't.

Out'ing yourself is actually a phenomenal idea - for you. It's probably the first step towards extracting yourself from that wayward lifestyle because in reality (the real world where right and wrong aren't always upside down) you aren't as cool and hip and non-judgmental and desired/desirable as you FEEL you are now. Sin is deceiving. But swingers know that which is why they hide it. It's telling that none of you could have this conversation with me, your neighbors, your friends, ETC face to face but, yet, WE are the crazy bad judgmental people who proudly live our faith "lifestyle" all the time out in the open.


I'm also not triggering or angry. Her affair was 20 years ago. We are over it but the valuable life lessons we can still pass on to others.


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## Lloyd Dobler (Apr 24, 2014)

Cletus said:


> I'm an extreme supporter.
> 
> I have never swung. Probably never will. Don't know any out swingers. Don't have an opinion on whether it's a good idea or not.
> 
> I will shout from the highest rooftop at the top of my voice for your right to swing if you want, and get very vocal when you decide that it's your right to run around imposing your morality on anyone else's mutually consented adult sexual behavior.


Gotta say I agree with this 100% @Cletus. I personally have no interest in swinging and I don't know of any couples who do, but it doesn't bother me in the slightest that other folks live that lifestyle. Live and let live.


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

Cletus said:


> I have never swung. Probably never will. Don't know any out swingers. Don't have an opinion on whether it's a good idea or not.


Swung, swinged, swingeth.:scratchhead:


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

KillerClown said:


> Swung, swinged, swingeth.:scratchhead:


Hah! Brings new meaning to the term "conjugation".


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Quality said:


> But when you and others rip on me, tell me I can't or shouldn't expose people, mischaracterize me calling me names and "judgmental" aren't you/they also "assigning their own judgments to other people who do not share your values"
> 
> So yeah, I get it, it makes no sense to you. It never will. But for the sake of common decency, would you please lay off the shaming?


Define common decency?

I'm just living my very common faith so maybe you, for the sake of common decency should stop swinging and lay off hating and shaming Christians for merely practicing their faith. 

[/QUOTE]

i should stop swinging? im not a swinger. several of my friends are, however. 

and so far as practicing your faith... well, the westboro baptist christians were just practicing their faith too. they pushed a lot people away from christianity. who wants to be associated with so much hate?

i have had two sexual partners in my life, and the first i consider a mistake. the second being my wife. and i am pentacostal and yes, i believe in Christ as the Messiah. 

it is obvious to me that you would rather condemn sinners than save souls. whatever floats your boat i guess.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> Yeah, I saw that. It's people like him that make it hard for anyone who is different to live their own lives as they see fit.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I/we don't make it hard for you to live y'all's lives. It's the way our judgment makes you feel that makes living a deviant lifestyle hard. In other words, it's YOU that makes it hard on you. It's your choices and your internal underlying innate moral compass {that spark of light we're all given that you smother with these well versed rationalizations and justifications} that make FEEL shame and shamed. I'm just living my faith. I'd rather not mind any of you tax collectors at all but I'm just busting with hope for each and every one of you. If not, maybe more Christians will stumble upon my words and agree that it's not wrong to judge, they should hold their friends, neighbors, brothers and sisters accountable, humbly rebuke when needed and tolerance isn't a one way street.

it's a free country. Like Cletus, I'll defend my {and your} freedoms till the bulls come home. But when you "swing" you literally bring the public with you into your home or wherever you do it. This isn't a private matter between a husband and wife especially when done in a public place like a swingers club. Swingers don't have a privacy interest at stake and "marriage" is a social construct. It's like saying you can't tell anyone I drink beer or that I'm a Christian. It only SEEMS "private" because it's so wrong and shameful but it's really just an eventual public fact. Be "different" all you want just don't demand my tolerance and tell me to mind my own business.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Quality said:


> I/we don't make it hard for you to live y'all's lives. It's the way our judgment makes you feel that makes living a deviant lifestyle hard. In other words, it's YOU that makes it hard on you. It's your choices and your internal underlying innate moral compass {that spark of light we're all given that you smother with these well versed rationalizations and justifications} that make FEEL shame and shamed. I'm just living my faith. I'd rather not mind any of you tax collectors at all but I'm just busting with hope for each and every one of you. If not, maybe more Christians will stumble upon my words and agree that it's not wrong to judge, they should hold their friends, neighbors, brothers and sisters accountable, humbly rebuke when needed and tolerance isn't a one way street.
> 
> it's a free country. Like Cletus, I'll defend my {and your} freedoms till the bulls come home. But when you "swing" you literally bring the public with you into your home or wherever you do it. This isn't a private matter between a husband and wife especially when done in a public place like a swingers club. Swingers don't have a privacy interest at stake and "marriage" is a social construct. It's like saying you can't tell anyone I drink beer or that I'm a Christian. It only SEEMS "private" because it's so wrong and shameful but it's really just an eventual public fact. Be "different" all you want just don't demand my tolerance and tell me to mind my own business.


how many times are you going to put your foot in your mouth? im not a swinger. i dont have sex with anyone but my wife.

and i will tell you to mind your own business. im pretty sure you would love to crucify(metaphorically) some of those i work with. i will defend them with my last breath, because thats what they will do for me. you have already shown yourself to be completely intolerant and hateful of ANYTHING that does not line up with your religious views. i wouldnt trust you in a fox hole, no sir. you come across as the kind of person who lets your biases outgrow your love for your fellow man.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> how many times are you going to put your foot in your mouth? im not a swinger. i dont have sex with anyone but my wife.
> 
> and i will tell you to mind your own business. im pretty sure you would love to crucify(metaphorically) some of those i work with. i will defend them with my last breath, because thats what they will do for me. you have already shown yourself to be completely intolerant and hateful of ANYTHING that does not line up with your religious views. i wouldnt trust you in a fox hole, no sir. you come across as the kind of person who lets your biases outgrow your love for your fellow man.


He couldn't put together a defensible argument with an instruction manual.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Quality said:


> But when you and others rip on me, tell me I can't or shouldn't expose people, mischaracterize me calling me names and "judgmental" aren't you/they also "assigning their own judgments to other people who do not share your values"
> 
> So yeah, I get it, it makes no sense to you. It never will. But for the sake of common decency, would you please lay off the shaming?


Define common decency?

I'm just living my very common faith so maybe you, for the sake of common decency should stop swinging and lay off hating and shaming Christians for merely practicing their faith. 




Except you are set out and determined to keep your sins a secret denying the great majority of "common decency lov'in" monogamous persons full disclosure such that they can freely choose with whom they hang out with and whom they don't.

Out'ing yourself is actually a phenomenal idea - for you. It's probably the first step towards extracting yourself from that wayward lifestyle because in reality (the real world where right and wrong aren't always upside down) you aren't as cool and hip and non-judgmental and desired/desirable as you FEEL you are now. Sin is deceiving. But swingers know that which is why they hide it. It's telling that none of you could have this conversation with me, your neighbors, your friends, ETC face to face but, yet, WE are the crazy bad judgmental people who proudly live our faith "lifestyle" all the time out in the open.


I'm also not triggering or angry. Her affair was 20 years ago. We are over it but the valuable life lessons we can still pass on to others.[/QUOTE]

Completely agree with this !!


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

wmn1 said:


> Completely agree with this !!


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> how many times are you going to put your foot in your mouth? im not a swinger. i dont have sex with anyone but my wife.
> 
> and i will tell you to mind your own business. im pretty sure you would love to crucify(metaphorically) some of those i work with. i will defend them with my last breath, because thats what they will do for me. you have already shown yourself to be completely intolerant and hateful of ANYTHING that does not line up with your religious views. i wouldnt trust you in a fox hole, no sir. you come across as the kind of person who lets your biases outgrow your love for your fellow man.



Oh sure. Stop attacks by launching more. You know everything about everyone but in the end, you don't know $hit. You really want to accuse Quality of being biased ? Let me educate you, read your own posts on this thread. Then tell me who is biased but claims that they are fair ? Look in the mirror. It's you


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Cletus said:


>


Man Cletus, I feel bad for you. It must svck being wrong as often as you are. Don't worry about it man, step away from the keyboard and go re-invent yourself somewhere.

I will use your own GIF against you.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

I see it in a way like this...there's so much more to life than enslaving ourselves to every carnal desire we have. That's not really living, whether you're an atheist or a religious person...living begins when you find happiness inside of yourself. (and for a believer, in God) If people searched more inside of themselves for it, there'd be less need to keep searching for it ...in places that you'll honestly never find it. Not lasting happiness, anyways. Just my thoughts to it.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

wmn1 said:


> Oh sure. Stop attacks by launching more. You know everything about everyone but in the end, you don't know $hit. You really want to accuse Quality of being biased ? Let me educate you, read your own posts on this thread. Then tell me who is biased but claims that they are fair ? Look in the mirror. It's you


really? my main message has been live and let live. yours and qualitys message has been "burn them at the stake". and, when anyone points that out, you try to turn it around and say that we are the ones being biased, wrong, etc? yeah... no, im not going to live like that. i wont go out of my way to shame anyone. if you want to, by all means, go ahead. 

i will still defend the oppressed.

de oppresso liber.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> really? my main message has been live and let live. yours and qualitys message has been "burn them at the stake". and, when anyone points that out, you try to turn it around and say that we are the ones being biased, wrong, etc? yeah... no, im not going to live like that. i wont go out of my way to shame anyone. if you want to, by all means, go ahead.
> 
> i will still defend the oppressed.
> 
> de oppresso liber.


First of all, the swingers aren't the oppressed. So knock that off. And in this thread, they, and defenders like you, have been just as oppressive.

Secondly, I never said 'burn them at the stake'. I did say that I find such people to be vile and morally corrupt (not necessarily in those terms) but I stand by that. But 'burn them at the stake' is way overboard. I do agree with partial exposure so that they can't take advantage of others close to them.

Third, some people need to grow thick skins. In my job, I get insulted every day, spit at, threatened, etc... No words on a forum are going to hurt me. Maybe if some people feel 'shamed', they should crawl inside their 'safe spaces' and walk away from the keyboard because I can tell you this. There's not a DAM^ person on this board who can 'shame me'. It's pathetic that we can't have disagreements and dialogue without weak people being 'shamed'. Hey wait, I haven't heard any of the swingers here saying they were 'shamed'. So is it their defenders who are making this crap up ????


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> i am pentacostal and yes, i believe in Christ as the Messiah.
> 
> it is obvious to me that you would rather condemn sinners than save souls. whatever floats your boat i guess.



Do you try to save the souls of the swingers you know? If so, how?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

wmn1 said:


> First of all, the swingers aren't the oppressed. So knock that off. And in this thread, they, and defenders like you, have been just as oppressive.
> 
> Secondly, I never said 'burn them at the stake'. I did say that I find such people to be vile and morally corrupt (not necessarily in those terms) but I stand by that. But 'burn them at the stake' is way overboard. I do agree with partial exposure so that they can't take advantage of others close to them.
> 
> Third, some people need to grow thick skins. In my job, I get insulted every day, spit at, threatened, etc... No words on a forum are going to hurt me. Maybe if some people feel 'shamed', they should crawl inside their 'safe spaces' and walk away from the keyboard because I can tell you this. There's not a DAM^ person on this board who can 'shame me'. It's pathetic that we can't have disagreements and dialogue without weak people being 'shamed'. Hey wait, I haven't heard any of the swingers here saying they were 'shamed'. So is it their defenders who are making this crap up ????


go have fun dude. i have had to rely on people who i had issues with while doing what i do for a living. i have learned that people who live lifestyles i dont agree with can still be willing to die for me. what greater love is there than to die for your friend? you dont care if you are judged? fine. no problem. on this, we are in agreement. this soldier wouldnt put his faith in you anyway. nor would he to expect you to understand. 

call swingers whatever you want. i will form my opinion of you based on what i see of you.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

> i should stop swinging? im not a swinger. several of my friends are, however.


I probably would never expose you for things you just do with your wife. Doesn't sound like you're an adulterer so there might not be anything too expose. i don't believe BDSM to be a loving activity glorifying Him but that's between you, your wife and God. It sounded like you did that BDSM stuff in front of and around groups of others doing it too, which IS pretty much swinging in my book but it's not like I'm going to run around investigating every situation trying to find sinners everywhere. Then again, if you were a leader in my church, I'd PROBABLY feel compelled to mention this to the leadership and let them decide whether it was a problem or not.

You probably should reevaluate your friendships.

As far as hunting terrorists goes ~ I fully support you and your friends doing whatever needs to be done when fighting such evils. I may not like everyone's choices but I love the fact we get to choose.




> and so far as practicing your faith... well, the westboro baptist christians were just practicing their faith too. they pushed a lot people away from christianity. who wants to be associated with so much hate?


Charles Manson was into BDSM, does that mean you are a psychopathic murderer too. 

I have nothing to do with the Westboro Church. 




> i am pentacostal and yes, i believe in Christ as the Messiah.


Then why do you fight against God and condone wickedness? I have several Pentecostal friends and they understand this battle much like I do. 




> it is obvious to me that you would rather condemn sinners than save souls. whatever floats your boat i guess.


You're friends are swingers. You hang out at a swingers club and, I believe, do kinky fetish stuff in front of other people. You are defending swingers on this thread. You are attacking a fellow Christian for just talking about exercising his beliefs {I've exposed no one here and no one you know}. You've offered no scriptural objections, debate or even discussion while pouring out condemnation, judgment and rebuke yourself. You don't really sound like a person out "saving souls" to me. But I sincerely hope you are trying. We all have different talents and capabilities to influence others. 



> James 5:20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.





> 7. Galatians 6:1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.



Finally ~ on what planet are adulterers (including swingers) the oppressed? As a fellow Christian, how can you justify the wicked and stand up for the devil rather than God? How can you call what goes against God’s Word good and label them with victims? How can you love what God hates? Whose side are you on?


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> what greater love is there than to die for your friend?


Yes, He did.

Amen to that.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

LucasJackson said:


> Do you try to save the souls of the swingers you know? If so, how?


Jesus hung out with sinners, right? he loved them. he did no agree with them, but he welcomed them. 


i really dont need to save their souls. most of them dont need saving. most of them have decided to love each other and be happy with each other. 

trying to save a soul is like trying to wake someone up. waking up is painful. even if you tell them what life really is, they still wont want to wake up. so, i dont try to wake people up. i just let them know i love them, because i choose to. because its who i choose to be. it doesnt matter to me what they have done due to their own ignorance. i would even die for Quality, even if i cant stand him. 

thats what unconditional love is. there are no conditions. you dont have to like someone. you dont have to agree with them to love them. 


think about it... how was Jesus able to love sinners?


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> it doesnt matter to me what they have done due to their own ignorance.


So swingers are ignorant?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Quality said:


> I probably would never expose you for things you just do with your wife. Doesn't sound like you're an adulterer so there might not be anything too expose. i don't believe BDSM to be a loving activity glorifying Him but that's between you, your wife and God. It sounded like you did that BDSM stuff in front of and around groups of others doing it too, which IS pretty much swinging in my book but it's not like I'm going to run around investigating every situation trying to find sinners everywhere. Then again, if you were a leader in my church, I'd PROBABLY feel compelled to mention this to the leadership and let them decide whether it was a problem or not.
> 
> You probably should reevaluate your friendships.
> 
> ...


me, im on the side of human. even by your own quote, we should rebuke them with gentleness. you have not done that. 

and yea, maybe my experience skews my view. i have fought in two wars next to people who i didnt always agree with. i learned to love them despite it. 

i find it interesting that Jesus was out making friends with sinners while hardball christians are praising his name while refusing to even deal with sinners. it seems to me that Jesus just loved people. he never turned anyone away. he was willing to tell people they were sinning, and was willing to love them anyway. 

if you want to hate swingers, go ahead. but, that tells me that you are not interested in leading them to truth. you are interested in hating them. which makes me wonder why you would have such a strong reaction to it? 

you have to understand, in my line of work, death is just a part of the job. we REALLY look hard at our own beliefs. in looking at my own, i have to say that i do love Him, but i also love people. like Jesus did. 

just so you know, i have never done "wicked things" in front of others. you have assumed that yourself. it seems to me that you WANT your view to be reality. but, i seriously doubt that you are the kind of person who will spend a night sleeping with a homeless guy so that you can let him know that you really dont judge him, that you really do love him because you choose to. 

yea, you can tell me all day long that you love Christ, but from what i can see, you do not love people, so i dont believe you.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

i should say what i see truth to be. 

its reality. open your eyes. jesus is the proof that we are saved. we just have to accept it. everyone on the planet is ok, they are saved, if they will just accept it for themselves. its nobody else 's business.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

LucasJackson said:


> So swingers are ignorant?


perhaps. does that make them wrong? even if they arent ignorant, it makes no difference to my previous point. 

my wife has made mistakes out of her own ignorance. she didnt know how bad she would feel, etc. had she really known she would have made different choices. 

people walk in ignorance every single day. we always avoid looking at what we dont understand and what we dont agree with. and what we are afraid of.

regardless, no, i really dont think swingers are ignorant. i think they are accepting of what they feel.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Quality said:


> I probably would never expose you for things you just do with your wife. Doesn't sound like you're an adulterer so there might not be anything too expose. i don't believe BDSM to be a loving activity glorifying Him but that's between you, your wife and God. It sounded like you did that BDSM stuff in front of and around groups of others doing it too, which IS pretty much swinging in my book but it's not like I'm going to run around investigating every situation trying to find sinners everywhere. Then again, if you were a leader in my church, I'd PROBABLY feel compelled to mention this to the leadership and let them decide whether it was a problem or not.
> 
> You probably should reevaluate your friendships.
> 
> ...


you have judged me by assuming that i do "kinky stuff" in front of others. one, i dont. two, what difference would it make if i did? what i see is you hating people that you see as sinners. i dont like that. why dont you come out with me and spend a night with some homeless sinners. if you wouldnt be willing to do that, why would i believe that you have any interest in loving people? 

just in case you plan on relaying scripture to me, you should know that i use the bible as a tool to learn other languages. im a linguist, its what i do. i have read the bible in seven languages. the only way i can make sense of your stance is if you ascribe to the old testament and ignore the new.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

I'm actually thinking you may have gone into the fog to extract your depressed former wayward wife and just stayed there. 

Where's the As'laDain that wrote this? I disagree with your conclusions about unconditional love but you sound just like me wanting to help every person {marriage} you meet and willing to do things that you know are best for them even if they don't like it. Like me, you also expressed back then that you've never met a person you hated, but here you are 2 years later hating on me. 



As'laDain 2/19/2014 said:


> jld asked me to start a thread on what i consider unconditional love, and how i practice it through my life. i guess it could be an interesting topic, since there are a lot of opinions about it.
> 
> to me, unconditional love is constantly looking out for the betterment of others. its not a feeling, its a choice. most of the time, i love unconditionally. its just easier that way, to me. i dont like this back and forth thing where one minute i feel like helping somebody and the next i want to drop them by the side of the road and drive off.
> 
> ...


I've also read a few of your more recent posts and you sound like you are having a nervous breakdown. It's like reading two different people. What happened to you? Maybe you think you're finding yourself and expanding your mind but you're now writing rhythmically,illogically and hatefully. Playing this dom role 24/7 might work for your wife but it doesn't appear to be totally working for you.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

wmn1 said:


> No, I win arguments because if this concept was so great or special, then more than 3-5% of the population would be doing it.
> 
> I sense a growing anger from the open marriage/swingers here. I love it because they are trying to justify their immoral and repugnant lifestyles and are failing miserably at it. I just hope that no third parties here are contemplating falling into this concept that it's somehow ok to have another man's junk in your wife's face


Because its not a majority doesn't mean that a lot of people are doing just fine. 3~5% out of 7 BILLION humans is till a lot, much less out of 250m some-odd sexually active Americans.
A LOT of people like Game of Thrones, but most people never watched it. Doesn't reduce the quality of that TV series.

So no, your example of a handful of "BAD results" doesn't mean everyone IS having a bad time. Your "sense of anger" is misplaced, its more like annoyed by bigotry of self-righteousness people.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

As'laDain said:


> one weekend a month, our local swingers club conducts a BDSM only event. my wife and i practice a particular kind of BDSM and we often look for people who are open minded enough to discuss such things without actually judging us.


There is respect in the kink / BDSM crowd. As there are all kinds of people in any kind of lifestyle, etc. Something people think is that kinksters are doing KINKY things 24/7 (some do, but not most )- there are friendships, doing things that have nothing to do with kink etc.

I was at a BDSM party and performances last year. An old friend of mine and I were talking shop along with my wife. A young woman comes up to us and asks questions, and as a friendly crowed - nothing wrong with meeting new people and helping out newbies.

This woman tells us that she is a "dominatrix" and is with her guy-friend. She's actually is a HUGE Fifty Shades of Grey (FSOG) fan and we quickly guess what kind of "tools" she has at home. We show her some of our tools in our toy bags, how to use them and how they work. Pointing out that the FSOG toys were just cheap Chinese stuff with FSOG stickers stuck to them.* And that FSOG is badly written fantasy.

We're not going to sugar coat things, we still talked shop and engage with this "Dominatrix" I think 20min later, her friend said they had to go. She was out of her element, somehow found the party and was having a fantasy of beating up guys who are tied to beds or something. 

We did have a laugh about it because we didn't mean to scare her off on purpose. Hell, I've bought a good flogger for Dominatrix in training as a gift many many years ago. This woman from last year isn't or may never be ready for the real thing. I know a few women who would eat her up alive and give her nightmares. A couple of guys being friendly and she bails.

* You can get a cheap BDSM kits for $20 from Amazon. The FSOG bondage toys are junk, but with a much higher markup. It may still be the MOST popular selling brand. I think they do about a $billion in sales a year. I'd do the same 

Anyways, thought you may find that amusing. But also - kinksters do things JUST like anyone else. Eat, go to family events, work, drive, take care of their dogs, etc.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

LucasJackson said:


> In this very thread they do call normal people prudes, which is not true.


Thats just rude people and that can apply to anyone.

Kinksters may call other people... "Vanilla" - and its not at all to mean insulting. Because what is "normal" anyway? A Vanilla can be a crazy person or a bigot or a-sexual... its just someone who is keeping it on the bed.

Meanwhile, there are things we've tried that are new, and things we WANT to try - we haven't done before. After all these years, there *IS* new things to try out with your loved one.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

LucasJackson said:


> Are you claiming you didn't make the comparison by bringing parents with multiple children into the discussion? We can quote your words if you like.


No, I'll quote myself.



> *Okay, I'll throw this at you... about the ability to only love one person.
> 
> Children.
> 
> If you have 2 or even 4 whatever kids. Do you only love just one kid? or one kid at a time? Or do you love all of them, as individuals for who they are?*


1 - the Discussion was about LOVE, NOT SEX. Sex and LOVE are two DIFFERENT THINGS.

2 - I was talking about the ability to love more than one of your own children... and in LOVE. I didn't say "make love" or anything that should be mistaking as F-ing your kids.

3 - I didn't say anything that means having sex with any kids.

4 - the anlalogy was to express that as a HUMAN being, you DO have the ability to LOVE more than one other person. I didn't use the the phrase "IN-LOVE WITH YOUR CHILDREN" which would point towards romantic (incestual) interests.

5 - You made this about sex.

6 - Could it had been a little bit clearer, yes. But it should have been obvious since the post was not about SEX and was trying to explain ability of affection.

Even the word "affection" doesn't mean SEX. You can have affection for your wife which is different from affection (non-sexual) for your offspring (children).


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Quality said:


> I have nothing to do with the Westboro Church.
> How can you call what goes against God’s Word good and label them with victims? How can you love what God hates? Whose side are you on?


While not posted at me.
1 - You may not be in the WBC, you judgment and self-righteous makes you not much different. As we see, NON-Swinging/BDSM MARRIED preachers HAVE had affairs with MARRIED members of their flock.

2 - You don't know what God actually thinks. But on top of that... Which god do you mean? Theres hundreds of version, some are female. Who made God? Not, not Jesus (he's the son of God), but who made the God? And who made the god before that god? 

And for such an impressive super-god, why make such design defects as humans? Or fleas? Fleas suck. I'd fire the guy who designed fleas. Ticks too. And poisonous animals.

I think someone was drunk when the designed the wilderbeast and the platypus. Maybe even on drugs.

3 - Why should anyone fight god's battles? Isn't that the point of being a God? For or against, there wouldn't be a chance. 

Thank god I don't live in such fear.


OH, I know quite a lot Christians who are swingers and some who are into BDSM. Sorry, but you don't get to judge what consenting (non-cheating) people do... you may get judged back.  Theres even a Christian Swingers website, go figure.

Outside of sexual fun, I've never EVER assaulted/hit my wife or in anger. That is wrong. Only a wimp would beat up on a woman.

Ah, Friday!


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

TaDor said:


> No, I'll quote myself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No one claimed you advocated sex with children. You did, however, compare romantic love with love for children.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Quality said:


> I'm actually thinking you may have gone into the fog to extract your depressed former wayward wife and just stayed there.
> 
> Where's the As'laDain that wrote this? I disagree with your conclusions about unconditional love but you sound just like me wanting to help every person {marriage} you meet and willing to do things that you know are best for them even if they don't like it. Like me, you also expressed back then that you've never met a person you hated, but here you are 2 years later hating on me.
> 
> ...



wow, who goes into old posts in order to find something to blast someone with? you really are searching hard for something to use against me arent you? 

so, i guess i didnt think to mention that my own wife cheated on me at one point. i guess that might have been relevant, since this IS the coping with infidelity forum. i forgave her. end of story. 

and i dont hate you. i strongly dislike your hatred of people who dont think like you. 

a single person trying to drive drunk in my neighborhood i can do something about. besides, they present an immediate danger to themselves and my community, so it would be irresponsible to do nothing. swingers dont go running around putting my family in danger. 

where is your love of people? do you only have hate and condemnation? 

now that you have called my sanity into question, lets explore that. you think i am having a nervous breakdown? sure, lets explore that. but first, you may want to ask yourself... do you really want to go down that route right now?

i mean, im always up for a good dance. are you?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

As'laDain, if you were to speak your truth to me, I would listen. Particularly because, aside from being pretty frickin awesome, you don't try to save my soul. I don't run around trying to save christian's minds. I would fight tooth and nail for their (your) right to believe anything they want that is not a danger to others. I appreciate the kindness and respect shown to me to not try to save my soul.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> go have fun dude. i have had to rely on people who i had issues with while doing what i do for a living. i have learned that people who live lifestyles i dont agree with can still be willing to die for me. what greater love is there than to die for your friend? you dont care if you are judged? fine. no problem. on this, we are in agreement. this soldier wouldnt put his faith in you anyway. nor would he to expect you to understand.
> 
> call swingers whatever you want. i will form my opinion of you based on what i see of you.


you act as though you own the market on putting your life in jeopardy. You don't. Been there and done that. On the same note, I have to rely on people who are morally differently from me to have my back. I trust them there because I can actually separate my opinions from them as a person versus how they conduct their personal lives. In fact, I had to save a couple of their skins over the course of the last 20 years. You wouldn't put faith in me ? No issues there. You seem to know me better than I know me. I wouldn't serve along side of you anyway with your stinky attitude. Regarding opinions of each other, our feelings are mutual.

Peace out


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

TaDor said:


> Because its not a majority doesn't mean that a lot of people are doing just fine. 3~5% out of 7 BILLION humans is till a lot, much less out of 250m some-odd sexually active Americans.
> A LOT of people like Game of Thrones, but most people never watched it. Doesn't reduce the quality of that TV series.
> 
> So no, your example of a handful of "BAD results" doesn't mean everyone IS having a bad time. Your "sense of anger" is misplaced, its more like annoyed by bigotry of self-righteousness people.


First of all, I never said 3-5% of 7 billion people. Those stats are for the US adult population.

Secondly, I have no 'sense of anger' so stop making crap up. I have opinions on this subject which I am entitled to. 

Third, I never said that everyone is having 'a bad time'. I just am calling out the moral depravity of their lifestyle.But hey, I'm good with it all. It's not me who has to clean another man's cum stains off of my wife every so often or get told that she is too 'sore' for me. They can have that. If they want that kind of existence, good for them. They can have it. But those people are not allowed in my life because they are incredibly disgusting to me. 

BTW, bigotry is a broadly defined term. It's often bigots who call other people bigots. Hmm...


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> As'laDain, if you were to speak your truth to me, I would listen. Particularly because, aside from being pretty frickin awesome, you don't try to save my soul. I don't run around trying to save christian's minds. I would fight tooth and nail for their (your) right to believe anything they want that is not a danger to others. I appreciate the kindness and respect shown to me to not try to save my soul.


Of course he does think you do what you do because you're ignorant. That's cool though, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

LucasJackson said:


> Of course he does think you do what you do because you're ignorant. That's cool though, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.


I know Lucas. Some of the other poster's a$$es are jealous of the $hit that is coming out of their mouths. NobodySpecial has been ok though I completely disagree with her viewpoint but a few of the others wow !!!


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

wmn1 said:


> I know Lucas. Some of the other poster's a$$es are jealous of the $hit that is coming out of their mouths. NobodySpecial has been ok though I completely disagree with her viewpoint but a few of the others wow !!!


It's funny, nobody who disagrees with her opinion has called her ignorant. Only her "ally" has. LOL!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> It's funny, nobody who disagrees with her opinion has called her ignorant. Only her "ally" has. LOL!


I have no allies. Are we at war? Only people who agree to some degree with what I am saying. Though most of them don't even. They only agree with my right to be who I am and think how I think. For themselves, my former lifestyle would no more appealing than it would be to you. They are only espousing my freedom to choose it for myself and debunk some thinking about how terribly awful it is.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

i have seen what happens in cultures that start spouting hate for small subsets of their population. it always starts out with rhetoric aimed at dehumanizing them, until it is social accepted.

the next step, after it is socially acceptable to hate the group, is to begin to persecute them in various ways.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> I have no allies. Are we at war? Only people who agree to some degree with what I am saying. Though most of them don't even. They only agree with my right to be who I am and think how I think. For themselves, my former lifestyle would no more appealing than it would be to you. They are only espousing my freedom to choose it for myself and debunk some thinking about how terribly awful it is.


It's cool. You just don't understand your lifestyle. After all, you're ignorant.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> i have seen what happens in cultures that start spouting hate for small subsets of their population. it always starts out with rhetoric aimed at dehumanizing them, until it is social accepted.
> 
> the next step, after it is socially acceptable to hate the group, is to begin to persecute them in various ways.


Yes, the Democrats are very good at doing that


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> It's cool. You just don't understand your lifestyle. After all, you're ignorant.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

wmn1 said:


> Yes, the Democrats are very good at doing that


so were ISIS, the taliban, al qaeda, the nazis, the KKK, jeish almehdi, boko haram.

they all started with dehumanizing a group of people.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> You don't understand yours. After all, your an *******.


"your an..." "your"??? I guess your buddy was right. That actually lends to a theory I have about people who still get off on things that haven't been practiced since prehistoric/caveman days.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> so were ISIS, the taliban, al qaeda, the nazis, the KKK, jeish almehdi, boko haram.
> 
> they all started with dehumanizing a group of people.


I don't think you can name a "group" of people that don't demonize, or at least mock/insult, some other group of people.

I can't think of any. When everyone does it, it must be human nature.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> so were ISIS, the taliban, al qaeda, the nazis, the KKK, jeish almehdi, boko haram.
> 
> they all started with dehumanizing a group of people.


oh so you are a democrat. This should be easy. Considering the newest wikileaks emails, Hillary gave $$ and weapons to ISIS and Obama put a plane on the ground with $400 million to Iran. NO, we're not killing anyone yet but yes, the Democrats are as bad as our enemies. They are the enemy. 

Thanks for making my point but I do take exception to linking them to NAZI Germany and North Koreas. Again, stop inventing facts. 

Be a libtard. That's fine. Stop following their que and putting words in people's mouths. I am too intelligent to fall for that BS trap


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

LucasJackson said:


> I don't think you can name a "group" of people that don't demonize, or at least mock/insult, some other group of people.
> 
> I can't think of any. When everyone does it, it must be human nature.


I agree. As'laDain is reaching and he knows it. Glad you figured out his shadow game, Lucas


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

wmn1 said:


> oh so you are a democrat. This should be easy. Considering the newest wikileaks emails, Hillary gave $$ and weapons to ISIS and Obama put a plane on the ground with $400 million to Iran. NO, we're not killing anyone yet but yes, the Democrats are as bad as our enemies. They are the enemy.
> 
> Thanks for making my point but I do take exception to linking them to NAZI Germany and North Koreas. Again, stop inventing facts.
> 
> Be a libtard. That's fine. Stop following their que and putting words in people's mouths. I am too intelligent to fall for that BS trap


Are you intelligent? If so, go find the political part of this forum and spout your hatred there. Calling people names is not cool.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

TX-SC said:


> Are you intelligent? If so, go find the political part of this forum and spout your hatred there. Calling people names is not cool.


Yeah... he didn't even come close to correctly naming my political affiliation. I'm actually surprised this thread hasn't been locked yet, with all the name calling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

Actions have consequences. We reap what we sow. Consenting adults can do what they want. I just feel sorry for the children who suffer when there's a fallout, like in the real life example of the two couples I cited who exchanged spouses. That little girl didn't ask for any of that. Her innocent childhood is destroyed. Whether she knew it or not, she looked to her parents to be role models and to be an example of what a healthy relationship looks like. They failed her because they put themselves first. They pursued their lustful desires without considering the consequences that their actions would have on their child, but they don't get a do-over. Riverrat had a thread about his wife's infidelity with her consenting affair partner. His son caught them out in public, and even though the son was of age, what he witnessed between his mother, whom he idolized, and the other man messed him up. He developed a lot of emotional problems that troubled him for years.

Morals mean different things to different people, and we really can't force our morals onto others because we all have free will. We're all part of this great society, and what we do have rippling effects that affect others, good and bad. A happily swinging couple who have been swinging for decades can espouse the excitement and benefits of their lifestyle to others. They can give detailed step by step instructions of what to do and what not to do, but if anyone listening to them chooses to partake in that lifestyle and messes up with even one step in the instruction, the result could be devastating to their marriage and their children, if they have any. Personally, I think that's what happened with many swinging couples who tried that lifestyle. They thought they could handle it, and they did for a while, but jealousy and suppressed hurt feelings result in the destruction of their marriages. Mark and Christy knew how to navigate the dangers of that lifestyle, but Brett and Terri didn't, and it destroyed their marriage and greatly affected their kid's life.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

wmn1 said:


> oh so you are a democrat. This should be easy. Considering the newest wikileaks emails, Hillary gave $$ and weapons to ISIS and Obama put a plane on the ground with $400 million to Iran. NO, we're not killing anyone yet but yes, the Democrats are as bad as our enemies. They are the enemy.
> 
> Thanks for making my point but I do take exception to linking them to NAZI Germany and North Koreas. Again, stop inventing facts.
> 
> Be a libtard. That's fine. Stop following their que and putting words in people's mouths. I am too intelligent to fall for that BS trap


I stand for freedom. In this country, I always knew I was free, but I had no idea how much of a blessing it is to live in such an awesome country until I visited countries that do not put freedom first. 

Being that my job is basically to hunt down terrorists and find them so that we can kill them, I'm not sure where you got the idea that I am a democrat. I literally hunt down and kill people who try to force their views onto others. I do believe in what I do, but I hate the fact that I have to kill them. I would much rather sit down and talk to them. I don't hate them. I know that at any point, a terrorist could become the next Gandhi if he wanted to. But, I'm not going to sit by and watch them kill people just because they think differently. Once I know that their intentions are to kill those who don't agree with them, I am left with only two options: hope that they will change their minds and do nothing, or capture/kill them. In a perfect world, I would capture them and then get to know them. And then I would challenge them until they fully accepted themselves, and teach them how to love themselves. Cuz once someone truly accepts themselves and love themselves, they can't help but love other people. They will understand that nobody on the planet is really any different than them. 

It would be easy for me to call myself a conscientious objector, considering that I hate killing. But I'm also a realist. I know that people will act through their own ignorance, and will kill through it. I know that people can hate their own emotional reactions enough to decide to hate anyone who accepts their emotional reactions. 

I do not support Hillary. In this case, you are just wrong. I am a free thinker and a staunch patriot. 

I do have a question for you... where did I mention north korea? I have no idea where you pulled that one from. Are you running g out of things to attack me with? On this thread I have been called a swinger and a democrat, neither of which are true. I'm curious to know what else you will make up. It seems to me that you and those who support you like to make things up out of thin air. Which, when I think about it, means that you probably just make things up about everybody. You seem pretty convinced that you are correct in your thinking. 

So I have to wonder how much stuff that you believe is just something you made up yourself. I mean, if you are that quick to make up fantasies and then believe them to be reality, then I would have to question everything you say. 

How much of your opinion is affected by your own imagination?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

As'laDain said:


> I do believe in what I do, but I hate the fact that I have to kill them. I would much rather sit down and talk to them.


While some of the US is better than other countries (eg where you can disappear for asking the wrong questions about officials)...

" I do believe in what I do, but I hate the fact that I have to kill them. I would much rather sit down and talk to them. "

You'd rather sit down and talk with them ... but then when they still don't agree to do it the way you believe, you kill them. And you'll do it because some guy in an office said it was the right thing to do.

They too wish you'd just sit down and talk, and agree with them.
But you and others have been killing them for so long, they now fight you to the end because they know you will kill them when the man in the office says to do so.

But both sides lie, both sides create ignorance to control their masses. Both sides believe in their own bs.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

As'laDain said:


> so were ISIS, the taliban, al qaeda, the nazis, the KKK, jeish almehdi, boko haram.
> 
> they all started with dehumanizing a group of people.


So do the US, the US military, the US mega-corporations, and the Central banks. you _are_ stock for their farms.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

spotthedeaddog said:


> While some of the US is better than other countries (eg where you can disappear for asking the wrong questions about officials)...
> 
> " I do believe in what I do, but I hate the fact that I have to kill them. I would much rather sit down and talk to them. "
> 
> ...


I have had that thought too. That we are just killing each other because we kill each other. But, then they go and do stuff like this: ISIS burns 19 girls alive for refusing sex slavery

And I remember who we are dealing with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

TX-SC said:


> Are you intelligent? If so, go find the political part of this forum and spout your hatred there. Calling people names is not cool.


Don't quote objectionable content, it makes for more moderator work.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

@;


As'laDain said:


> so were ISIS, the taliban, al qaeda, the nazis, the KKK, jeish almehdi, boko haram.
> 
> they all started with dehumanizing a group of people.


I never said that !!! And you call me the one with the imagination ?? Look in the fvcking mirror


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

TX-SC said:


> Are you intelligent? If so, go find the political part of this forum and spout your hatred there. Calling people names is not cool.



I didn't call him $hit. Your imagination is as big as his. Maybe you need to find your 'safe space'. You sound very thin skinned


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> I stand for freedom. In this country, I always knew I was free, but I had no idea how much of a blessing it is to live in such an awesome country until I visited countries that do not put freedom first.
> 
> Being that my job is basically to hunt down terrorists and find them so that we can kill them, I'm not sure where you got the idea that I am a democrat. I literally hunt down and kill people who try to force their views onto others. I do believe in what I do, but I hate the fact that I have to kill them. I would much rather sit down and talk to them. I don't hate them. I know that at any point, a terrorist could become the next Gandhi if he wanted to. But, I'm not going to sit by and watch them kill people just because they think differently. Once I know that their intentions are to kill those who don't agree with them, I am left with only two options: hope that they will change their minds and do nothing, or capture/kill them. In a perfect world, I would capture them and then get to know them. And then I would challenge them until they fully accepted themselves, and teach them how to love themselves. Cuz once someone truly accepts themselves and love themselves, they can't help but love other people. They will understand that nobody on the planet is really any different than them.
> 
> ...


yada yada yada Your lectures are getting old. First of all, no a terrorist can't become the next Ghandi. Secondly, I find it troublesome that you want to sit down and talk and speak reason to terrorists when you are one of those who 'fight them'. And quite frankly, I disagree with you. Terrorists need to be wiped out.

Moving on, yes, I don't like swingers or open marriage people. But even I understand they have constitutional rights and I don't go out of my way to mess with them. But they have no place in my life, I think they are disgusting and I protect my friends and family from them. That will never change regardless of whatever you or anyone else says.

Like you, I am a patriot who has been serving society for 25 plus years, even under fire and constant threat. Even risking myself for those I don't like. And I too do not support Hillary.

Whatever your thoughts are about me is mutual and right back at you. I called you a Democrat as a joke. I made a passing joke that went over your head and your ego took exception to it.

Regardless, I will never agree with you on this topic and while I am sure I will get another long lecture calling me a liar even though you are making accusations that are wrong and I am quite curious regarding what these 'fantasies' that I am making up are. But it doesn't matter. Discussing this further with you is like clapping with one hand.

Oh on a final note, though I am not the one who called you a 'swinger', you mentioned in post 411 on this thread that you attend swinger clubs. That probably confused people or led them to believe that you are one. But I never said that.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

I am officially out of this thread before I get in trouble with the moderators. I won't even answer up to further cheap shots. Peace out


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*I'm locking this thread because I think it's gone over the deep end.

{speaking as a moderator}*


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