# Calamity, disaster, still in the wilderness



## wilderness

Hello all:

I am rough shape these days. I have never told my story, mostly because it is so terrible that many wouldn't even believe it. To be very brief, the day I found out about my wife's affair was about a year ago. At the time we were separated but planning on being reunited as a family in 6 weeks. I found out by using her phone to call the OM. She responded by calling the cops on me. The cops did nothing, but she filed for a restraining order and got it. 

One full month later I was arrested and charged with assault. I had never been in trouble before in my life. I was not accused of putting my hands on her at all, just putting her in fear (even though I wasn't accused of specifically threatening her), and they came to my job and arrested me. At the time I thought it must have been a mistake, or even a joke. All it was was an argument in which I had barely even raised my voice.

My former mother in law, who hates me, then tried to leverage this arrest into getting me to sign away my parental rights. My daughter means everything to me and I have taken care of her since birth. Of course I declined, thinking this type of evidence should prove that the charge was nonsense. I was wrong. Even though it was a misdemeanor, and even though there were no witnesses or evidence or any kind whatsoever, and even though I have no criminal record, I was thrown in prison for 30 days.

Since that time my x and her mother in law have been fighting to keep me away from my daughter. My xmil has accused my father, mother, stepfather, and brother of being abusers (none of them have ever been in any trouble of any kind whatsoever). When we go to family court, it seems as if they just throw false accusation after false accusation out there and they are believed, while nothing that I say is taken seriously...even though I have a mountain of evidence of their wrongdoing including abusive text messages, emails, and witnesses that can testify to this. But I've never been able to get the judge to let the witnesses testify or the evidence admitted.

I've lost my job. I've gained a ton of weight. I've mostly lost my relationship with my daughter. They have tried to have me arrested twice since that time and I have no doubt there will be more accusations to come. Still trying to maintain hope in the face of overwhelming adversity. I will never give up on my daughter. There is a custody trial coming up and I hope to win close to 50/50 joint custody, but will it be worth the paper it's printed on? Unfortunately I think not as my X and my Xmil will just withhold my daughter and make me chase them. The police will not get involved.

Thanks for listening.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Do you have a lawyer?


----------



## EnjoliWoman

What country are you in? I assume you were convicted if you served 30 days. 

I would try to get her to admit you never hurt her. Call her up under ANY pretext. Even if you loathe to hear her voice, call her and tell her you love her and don't want to lose her,... LIE. Get her to admit you never hit her if at all possible.

Try to get a job again. I was fortunate to run across a divorcee who owned an employment agency and she put me on the best jobs until I found the right one. I was honest but didn't complain or blame and she was a great ally.

If you can get a job and show you weren't the aggressor you have an even better chance at shared custody.

Police will not get involved in custody. That is a civil matter. However, if they refuse to allow visitation that is contempt of court and that is criminal and you can file for contempt and she may very well serve time for that if she doesn't immediately comply.

Keep at it. Go see a counselor. United Family Services provide family and individual counseling on a sliding scale based on income. It will show that you are willing to seek help to remain positive through this time and help your daughter through it as well. Your purpose for attending is dealing with the emotions of the divorce and learning to co-parent. Whether your ex is cooperative doesn't matter. It shows YOU are willing to work and learn and put your child above all else.

There are also custody advocates in most states and they run under different names but their intent is to serve the needs of the child, not the parents. And they understand a child needs both parents and stability. A custody advocate is the best thing you can have because they are completely impartial and make a recommendation to the court on behalf of the child and aren't easily swayed by such crazy stories. If you feel strongly that you are a good father and you have friends and family that can vouch for that, that is all they need to know.

Best of luck. Get a kick-ass attorney.


----------



## wilderness

EnjoliWoman said:


> What country are you in? I assume you were convicted if you served 30 days.
> 
> I would try to get her to admit you never hurt her. Call her up under ANY pretext. Even if you loathe to hear her voice, call her and tell her you love her and don't want to lose her,... LIE. Get her to admit you never hit her if at all possible.
> 
> Try to get a job again. I was fortunate to run across a divorcee who owned an employment agency and she put me on the best jobs until I found the right one. I was honest but didn't complain or blame and she was a great ally.
> 
> If you can get a job and show you weren't the aggressor you have an even better chance at shared custody.
> 
> Police will not get involved in custody. That is a civil matter. However, if they refuse to allow visitation that is contempt of court and that is criminal and you can file for contempt and she may very well serve time for that if she doesn't immediately comply.
> 
> Keep at it. Go see a counselor. United Family Services provide family and individual counseling on a sliding scale based on income. It will show that you are willing to seek help to remain positive through this time and help your daughter through it as well. Your purpose for attending is dealing with the emotions of the divorce and learning to co-parent. Whether your ex is cooperative doesn't matter. It shows YOU are willing to work and learn and put your child above all else.
> 
> There are also custody advocates in most states and they run under different names but their intent is to serve the needs of the child, not the parents. And they understand a child needs both parents and stability. A custody advocate is the best thing you can have because they are completely impartial and make a recommendation to the court on behalf of the child and aren't easily swayed by such crazy stories. If you feel strongly that you are a good father and you have friends and family that can vouch for that, that is all they need to know.
> 
> Best of luck. Get a kick-ass attorney.


There is a restraining order. I cannot contact her in any way. Believe me, she's not going to lift it anytime soon. I have a lawyer for divorce. As far as a GAL, my lawyer recommended against it as I live in one of the worst areas in the country for fathers. According to 2 lawyers that I've spoken to, GALs almost always side with the mother where I live.
I'm going to keep fighting the good fight.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

wilderness said:


> There is a restraining order. I cannot contact her in any way. Believe me, she's not going to lift it anytime soon. I have a lawyer for divorce. As far as a GAL, my lawyer recommended against it as I live in one of the worst areas in the country for fathers. According to 2 lawyers that I've spoken to, GALs almost always side with the mother where I live.
> I'm going to keep fighting the good fight.


Hm. I had a restraining order (he really WAS abusive) but he was allowed to contact me to make visitation arrangements.

Will ALL contact be via attorneys? No emails or mediation?

Sorry your area of the country is not very supportive for fathers. I admit as the mother I don't know if ours is or not - I thought they were VERY fair. Her GAL was a man, the custody advocate a woman. They seemed very objective.


----------



## wilderness

EnjoliWoman said:


> Hm. I had a restraining order (he really WAS abusive) but he was allowed to contact me to make visitation arrangements.
> 
> Will ALL contact be via attorneys? No emails or mediation?
> 
> Sorry your area of the country is not very supportive for fathers. I admit as the mother I don't know if ours is or not - I thought they were VERY fair. Her GAL was a man, the custody advocate a woman. They seemed very objective.


There have been amendments to the restraining order, but to make a very long story short, anything that I say- no matter how nicely I say it, is used as an opportunity for my X and/or her mother to claim that I am harassing or abusing her. For example, we negotiated that I would be able to say goodnight to my little one every night. Problem is, they never take the calls. So naturally I put it in the journal to please make sure I get my goodnight phone call as my little one's relationship with her father is very important. This was used as an opportunity to claim that I was harassing her. I took her to court for contempt, and I had phone records and witnesses, but the judge would not allow the witnesses to testify and would not look at the phone records. Instead, she lectured me on 'controlling my anger', then ruled against me . I was dumbfounded.

Believe me, any and all legal angles have been covered by me 1000x over. I have tried everything, and I continue to try everything. I won't ever give up on my little girl, but this is really taking it's toll. My whole family has taken abuse from my x and her mother- honestly I didn't tell 1/100th of the story. It is amazing what they have been allowed to get away with.


----------



## Nsweet

So you caught her cheating and her knee-jerk reaction was to pull the victim card and have you arrested for spousal abuse based on her fabricated story? And from the sounds of it it sees like her mother taught her everything she knew too. So now you're facing trumped up charges she invented with a Oscar winning performance in a female biased court that further paints you at as some Lifetime movie abusive husband and her as the victim. **raises hand* I've been there.* 

I hate to say it, but you're kinda sh!t out of luck here. You still want to keep fighting for even 50/50 custody but you have to be super careful when dealing with your wife. And if your wife is absolutely viscous and adamant about twisting the legal system to hurt you (so she can feel she's won), you may need to just let her have your daughter. I don't want that to happen, but I'm just telling you because I've seen some ex wives pull some nasty tricks.

Trust me, you don't want to be pulled into court defending child molestation charges because your ex wife finds your daughter has a yeast infection and want to keep harassing you for custody. And you just really don't want to lose everything because women like this do not give up in a fight. I'm telling you she could end up costing you a fortune and send you to the nut house. Ever heard of "emotional reasoning"? It basically means she's going to leverage anything she can use against you real or imaginary to beat you. 

Don't feel bad though. I promise you anything she's goin gto do the same thing to her new boy toy and OM when he's no longer of use to her. If you can get your daughter, all power to you. But if you can't, I hate to say it but she's going to be in for one rough childhood and training to be just like her mother and grandmother. That's probably the worst part of divorce when your ex is emotionally abusive and manipulates people, they train their children too.


----------



## KNIFE IN THE HEART

Why don't you start a journal to your daughter and every time you think of her, write in it. If the worst happens, and you aren't able to be in her life now, you will have this to show her when she approaches you in the future. It will be a sure sign of your love for her. You may even want to write letters to her, mail them to you, don't open them and save them for the future. Then you can show her that you thought of her all though the years. Again, I'm thinking worst case scenario. The reason for mailing the letters is to have the post-date to prove that it is something you did throughout her life. Otherwise, the mother might convince your daughter that you completed the journal in one night and faked the dates. 

It really is unfair how fathers are treated when it comes to custody. You are in my thoughts. Keep fighting.


----------



## wilderness

Nsweet said:


> So you caught her cheating and her knee-jerk reaction was to pull the victim card and have you arrested for spousal abuse based on her fabricated story? And from the sounds of it it sees like her mother taught her everything she knew too. So now you're facing trumped up charges she invented with a Oscar winning performance in a female biased court that further paints you at as some Lifetime movie abusive husband and her as the victim. **raises hand* I've been there.*
> 
> .


Her knee jerk reaction was to play the victim card and take out a restraining order on me. The amazing part of my story that I didn't elaborate on, is that the criminal charges were not filed against me until 4 days after the argument. Here is how it went down:

The day of the restraining order hearing (4 days after the incident), my mother and I were approached by my XMIL. She told us that my x did not want to continue going through the courts to resolve our issues and we all should have a talk instead of them pursuing the restraining order. I agreed, and my x and her mother had a discussion a few minutes later. At the time I saw the discussion as a potential opportunity to work things out, so my plan was to hold my X accountable for what she had done and see if we could find a way to get through it.
The discussion turned ugly very quickly, as my x AND her mother refused to admit that my X and I were involved in a reconciliation attempt, or that we were planning on moving in together, or that she cheated.
Now keep in mind that at the time, my X was spending 5 nights a week at my house, we were looking at apartments, we were talking on the phone multiple times a day, we were having sex all the time, we had told my daughter that we were moving in together as a family, etc etc...
As I pointed out all of these facts, my X and her mother both absolutely lost it, screaming at me and my mother at the top of their lungs in a totally filthy manner. I ended up kicking them both out of my house. They then drove to the courthouse and filed these charges against me. 

Of course no one in the criminal justice system cared that these charges were obviously retaliatory in nature. 



> I hate to say it, but you're kinda sh!t out of luck here. You still want to keep fighting for even 50/50 custody but you have to be super careful when dealing with your wife. And if your wife is absolutely viscous and adamant about twisting the legal system to hurt you (so she can feel she's won), you may need to just let her have your daughter. I don't want that to happen, but I'm just telling you because I've seen some ex wives pull some nasty tricks.
> 
> Trust me, you don't want to be pulled into court defending child molestation charges because your ex wife finds your daughter has a yeast infection and want to keep harassing you for custody. And you just really don't want to lose everything because women like this do not give up in a fight. I'm telling you she could end up costing you a fortune and send you to the nut house. Ever heard of "emotional reasoning"? It basically means she's going to leverage anything she can use against you real or imaginary to beat you.


I'm fighting for _full_ custody, not 50/50. It's obviously not going to happen right away, but there is no way in good conscience I can sit and watch while my x and her mother raise my daughter to be like them. I have to fight.
As to a potential false sexual abuse claim, I am fully prepared for that eventuality. I actually think my x is already angling to try it, as she has been making comments to my mother and her lawyer about sleeping arrangements of the child (she has her own bed obviously) and things of that nature. I think the tactic I'm going to take is that moving forward, I'm going to videotape every single moment of my visitations with my daughter. 



> Don't feel bad though. I promise you anything she's goin gto do the same thing to her new boy toy and OM when he's no longer of use to her. If you can get your daughter, all power to you. But if you can't, I hate to say it but she's going to be in for one rough childhood and training to be just like her mother and grandmother. That's probably the worst part of divorce when your ex is emotionally abusive and manipulates people, they train their children too


My x and her boyfriend already broke up, so that's done. I am very concerned for my daughter, though. My XMIL is an abuser of the worst sort. It's taken me awhile to get here, but I now understand that the reason my x is so screwed up is because of her mother. My x isn't an abuser like her mother, but it's irrelevant because my x lives with her mother and her mother is 'driving the bus'.


----------



## wilderness

KNIFE IN THE HEART said:


> Why don't you start a journal to your daughter and every time you think of her, write in it. If the worst happens, and you aren't able to be in her life now, you will have this to show her when she approaches you in the future. It will be a sure sign of your love for her. You may even want to write letters to her, mail them to you, don't open them and save them for the future. Then you can show her that you thought of her all though the years. Again, I'm thinking worst case scenario. The reason for mailing the letters is to have the post-date to prove that it is something you did throughout her life. Otherwise, the mother might convince your daughter that you completed the journal in one night and faked the dates.
> 
> It really is unfair how fathers are treated when it comes to custody. You are in my thoughts. Keep fighting.


This is one of the best suggestions I've ever heard in my life. God bless you, I will do this. I do get to see my daughter now, but very little.


----------



## RandomDude

What... the... fk?!!!!!

I swear mate you must have alot of fking strength because I sure as hell would gone bonkers at all of this. Sickening, disgusting behaviour from your ex and her mother.

SICK and DISGUSTING behaviour from the courts as well.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

I'm know my ex has said all kinds of things (remember he's NPD) about me to others painting himself the perfect husband and father and has, no doubt, painted me the crazy WAW and has deemed all of my actions as devious and hateful. 

Women who actually DO/ARE those things make it bad for the rest of us and it's so unfair to the children. All I ever wanted was peace in my life and was willing to go 50/50 with custody. But since he used that time to turn her against me, that had to cease.

Until joining TAM I never realized how many emotionally unstable people there were. It's a bit frightening/daunting to someone who is dating but maybe that's why I've been single for 10 years - I'm selective.

It's a shame the courts and other agencies are too busy to devote manpower to cases that need it or are not progressive enough to know fathers are perfectly find parents, too. A vagina does not make me a better parent; my parenting skills do! One of the reasons I'd like to get my law degree is to help parents, both men and women, who have gotten the short stick.


----------



## wilderness

RandomDude said:


> What... the... fk?!!!!!
> 
> I swear mate you must have alot of fking strength because I sure as hell would gone bonkers at all of this. Sickening, disgusting behaviour from your ex and her mother.
> 
> SICK and DISGUSTING behaviour from the courts as well.


Man, you don't know the half of it. My X actually robbed my mother out of $2500 and after my mother filed the police report, the cops wouldn't arrest her. I was and am dumbfounded. They put me in jail over an _*argument*_, but she robs someone and they don't care?
The other thing that happened is that my XMIl basically tried to extort $4000 from me prior to me going to jail along with trying to get me sign away my parental rights- all this for dropping the allegation which was false to begin with.

In family court it has been lie after lie after blatant lie. For example, she tried to paint my exposure as me abusing her family members. She claimed I called her names, harassed her family repeatedly and they were afraid for my child because of it, etc etc...
Meanwhile I sent ONE facebook exposure message which was as polite as you could possibly get.
She tried to claim I was arrested for assault and battery on a police officer, which is just a flat out made up lie.
She claimed when I call my daughter I hang up on her (ridiculous).
She claimed that my mother watches my daughter on my visits while I go out partying (never happened, not even once).
She claimed I never visited my daughter in gymnastics (total lie).
She claimed my stepfather abused her and called her names. Luckily my mother and I were sitting there listening the conversation in question, and it never happened.
She claimed my father is an alcoholic and child abuser- neither are remotely true.

The other thing she did, which I didn't mention, is that while I was in jail she filed to have me arrested for not paying child support _for the 3 weeks while I was in jail_! The day after I got out I was served with a court summons. This probably costed my XMIL a thousand dollars to do, because her attorney filed it, because the child support agency wouldn't help her because I only owed 3 weeks.

My XMIL has tormented my family and especially my mother. She goes to bed crying most nights these days because she is terrified of this woman and what she will do. It's been a rough time, to say the least.


----------



## RandomDude

Fk mate... is it possible for you to make an appeal to take this case to another court in another state? Cause it doesn't seem like you're ever going to get any rights or justice at the moment with this one.

Hell I don't know what I would do in your shoes... probably best I don't think about it!


----------



## wilderness

RandomDude said:


> Fk mate... is it possible for you to make an appeal to take this case to another court in another state? Cause it doesn't seem like you're ever going to get any rights or justice at the moment with this one.
> 
> Hell I don't know what I would do in your shoes... probably best I don't think about it!


I'd love to, but no it's not possible unless the X makes the mistake of moving. As bad as my Xs and her mother's behavior has been, the system itself has been worse. I would never have believed how rigged against fathers the court is unless I had lived through it. As as bad as family court has been, the criminal system has been much worse. They tried to put me away for FIVE YEARS, based on a misdemeanor assault (argument!) with no battery, no witnesses, no evidence, AND she signed a form the day of the incident, with the police, saying she wouldn't file a restraining order. 
When they put me in jail, I was sent to a maximum security prison for the first 2 weeks of my sentence. That experience in itself is worthy of another thread, I could write a book. It was awful.

Meanwhile in family court, my X has repeatedly violated every court order we've ever had, and I have yet to win a contempt finding despite the fact that I have mountains of evidence. I do believe I've made some progress in this area, however, as I believe the judge is starting to catch onto their games. The next time I bring them to court I believe I'll win. But practically speaking, I'm probably 3 wins away from the judge actually doing anything to my X. Still trying to fight the good fight, though.


----------



## RandomDude

IMO, this needs a book. People need to be aware of how fked up your state is.

Keep up the good fight mate, stay strong and you will win out as long as you don't give up. Hell I do hope that judge wakes the fk up and starts doing his job properly. This is seriously inept conduct.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

May I ask what state? Just curious. I think my state/county/jurisdiction is more forward. By your name "wilderness" I might be able to assume a little backwards in that regard?

Canada seems to be the most family forward, child/divorce friendly country. Very aware of parental rights, alienation, etc.


----------



## wilderness

EnjoliWoman said:


> May I ask what state? Just curious. I think my state/county/jurisdiction is more forward. By your name "wilderness" I might be able to assume a little backwards in that regard?
> 
> Canada seems to be the most family forward, child/divorce friendly country. Very aware of parental rights, alienation, etc.


Massachusetts.
I've watched so many cases in my jurisdiction, trying to get a leg up on understanding how things work in my particular court. The woman gets full residential custody just about every time, with the man only getting every other weekend and wednesday night (what I have currently). The only positive is that normally joint _legal_ custody is awarded, which I have.
I have a trial for modification pending. I would think I have a good chance to get more time. After that, I'll file a modification every 6 months until I win. That's the plan.


----------



## KNIFE IN THE HEART

Keep us posted wilderness. I'm so frustrated for you! You are doing the right thing by documenting and fighting. I know your daughter will appreciate it when she's old enough to understand. What a great dad you are!


----------



## wilderness

Thanks everyone for the support. I didn't know if I should post my story, but now I'm glad that I did. I'd be remiss in mentioning that I'm a believer in Jesus Christ, and that I do believe he will somehow pull me through this situation.


----------



## wilderness

I've been struggling with something in my case. 

Right now, when I see my daughter, my mother or stepfather will drop off my daughter after the visit. Inevitably, my former mother in law will use this drop off as an opportunity to wreak havoc. She will either try to start a fight, or she will make some sort of outrageous demand that will in turn cause my whole family to fight. My mother in law is a _master_ at picking out an issue that she knows will cause arguments for me and my family. As such, my mother is going through marriage problems because of this woman.

Anyway, the alternative is to modify the restraining order so that all pick ups and drop offs happen at the police station. Of course, no one in my family thinks I should do it that way because it would hurt my daughter. I feel as though I have no choice. The other alternative would be to always have a witness with me for pick ups and drop offs. But that is probably not realistic in the medium to long term.


----------



## Nsweet

Good. I was going to suggest pickups and drop offs at the police station, but with a voice activated recorder (depending on your state's laws). A witness is a good idea too. The MIL might not be so quick to jump into a fight if you had a third party there who was immune to her bullsh!t. I'll give you bonus points if you bring along a good looking female friend.:smthumbup: Because that would really get to your wife.


----------



## wilderness

Nsweet said:


> Good. I was going to suggest pickups and drop offs at the police station, but with a voice activated recorder (depending on your state's laws). A witness is a good idea too. The MIL might not be so quick to jump into a fight if you had a third party there who was immune to her bullsh!t. I'll give you bonus points if you bring along a good looking female friend.:smthumbup: Because that would really get to your wife.


Unfortunately my state is a 2 party state, so VAR is out. One good thing is that my MIL is someone that simply cannot control herself. I know that it's just a matter of time before she goes off in front of a judge, or cop, or GAL, or something of the sort. Another reason why I won't give up.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

wilderness said:


> I've been struggling with something in my case.
> 
> Right now, when I see my daughter, my mother or stepfather will drop off my daughter after the visit. Inevitably, my former mother in law will use this drop off as an opportunity to wreak havoc. She will either try to start a fight, or she will make some sort of outrageous demand that will in turn cause my whole family to fight. My mother in law is a _master_ at picking out an issue that she knows will cause arguments for me and my family. As such, my mother is going through marriage problems because of this woman.
> 
> Anyway, the alternative is to modify the restraining order so that all pick ups and drop offs happen at the police station. Of course, no one in my family thinks I should do it that way because it would hurt my daughter. I feel as though I have no choice. The other alternative would be to always have a witness with me for pick ups and drop offs. But that is probably not realistic in the medium to long term.


It doesn't have to hurt your daughter. We do it. I simply told her it's a safe place, what with police present. And that sometimes when it's dark like in the winter it's just nice to have a safe parking lot to exchange in. We don't go inside. Parking lot is adequate AND they always have cameras. 

Everyone in your family needs to understand what "not engaging" means. Whatever the mother/grandmother says, they simply don't respond or limit it to "I'm only here to drop off DD". Or even better, "I'm only here to drop of DD and I'm sure you wouldn't want to have her overhear such distressing accusations/comments/conversations"

If she is old enough to get out by herself, she should just get out, grab her things without need for anyone to get out of their vehicles.

Also, check your laws. I found out in my state that I had the legal right to give permission on kiddo's behalf to record her phone conversations. So she could talk to her father on the phone and I could legally record their conversations, during which I recorded him saying "remember our plan" and called me a B while talking to our daughter. Not cool. So if she calls home, might not hurt to record.


----------



## Nsweet

Wait a minute! Have you tried using a little psychology on the MIL? Yeah, *she's just the attack dog in this fight between you and your stbxw.* So you know she's hearing the worst about you and then making irrational prejudice judgements based off of a few stories told over and over to her when really she should just mind her own freaking business and stay out of her daughter's business. 

Your wife is the real opposition here. Don't forget that!

What your MIL knows is that no one will ever be good enough for her precious daughter, because she probably judges all men to be the same like her ex husband or her father. What she wants to hear is that she's right, you were wrong, and feel like she's won. However, you don't have to give up your paternal custody rights here. Just agree with her for right now without any "buts".

What I'm thinking is you work with whatever your wife and MIL are willing to give you, which may mean forgoing custody visits for a couple weeks and phoning your daughter. If they're going to leverage your daughter against you in this fight, then how about you stop letting them do this and try to calm them down first. And the way you calm them down is just by letting them think they've won and feeding their ego. 

You still have what 18 years of child support and partial custody (23 or so if she goes to college). If worst comes to worse and you lose custody or your wife takes your daughter and moves far away where you can't reach her, you still have the rest of her life to meet her and be with her. It took me 21 years to meet my dad and I still keep in touch, only once or twice a week because I don't like my step mom (who's younger than me:slap.

I was in your daughters shoes and let me tell you she's not going to hate you forever based off of her mother's side of the story. She will want to meet you and get to know you, and probably feel relieved when she finally gets to hear your side of the story.

The only thing that really sucks about losing these custody battles in a feminist court system (gender biased towards men in custody cases) is that your wife can lie and cry in court and claim she gave up her career for your marriage (when really she just quit), and just throw you under the bus... which she already has done and will continue to manipulate the courts to punish you. That's why I'm telling you to agree with her and patch things up briefly until the papers are filed and can't be changed.


----------



## wilderness

EnjoliWoman said:


> It doesn't have to hurt your daughter. We do it. I simply told her it's a safe place, what with police present. And that sometimes when it's dark like in the winter it's just nice to have a safe parking lot to exchange in. We don't go inside. Parking lot is adequate AND they always have cameras.
> 
> Everyone in your family needs to understand what "not engaging" means. Whatever the mother/grandmother says, they simply don't respond or limit it to "I'm only here to drop off DD". Or even better, "I'm only here to drop of DD and I'm sure you wouldn't want to have her overhear such distressing accusations/comments/conversations"
> 
> If she is old enough to get out by herself, she should just get out, grab her things without need for anyone to get out of their vehicles.
> 
> Also, check your laws. I found out in my state that I had the legal right to give permission on kiddo's behalf to record her phone conversations. So she could talk to her father on the phone and I could legally record their conversations, during which I recorded him saying "remember our plan" and called me a B while talking to our daughter. Not cool. So if she calls home, might not hurt to record.


Believe me, I've had the 'don't engage' conversation with my family a million times. This problem is that my family is literally terrified of her. If she does not get her way, there is _always_ a punishment that follows and often times that punishment involves using my child as a weapon against me by withholding visitation. She is also skilled at doing it during a time that leaves me powerless to do anything about it. Example, right before a court date and no time to file contempt and be heard by a judge prior to court. Or there will be accusations that result from her not getting her way. Or the not engaging will be used against us in some way.

I truly believe the best solution is for her to have to face me. I will not let her get away with this stuff...period. I'll just say "I won't discuss that with you." I'm seen all of her tricks and I know what to expect from her.


----------



## wilderness

Nsweet said:


> Wait a minute! Have you tried using a little psychology on the MIL? Yeah, *she's just the attack dog in this fight between you and your stbxw.* So you know she's hearing the worst about you and then making irrational prejudice judgements based off of a few stories told over and over to her when really she should just mind her own freaking business and stay out of her daughter's business.
> 
> Your wife is the real opposition here. Don't forget that!
> 
> .


Actually, it's the opposite. My MIL is driving this entire bus. She has badmouthed me almost from day 1 to my wife. When we got separated, it was because my MIL convinced my wife that a separation would be best for my marriage. When we got back together, my MIL introduced my wife to OM and invited him over to their home several times to get them to hook up. Once we got separated, wife moved into MIL's house and I was banned from ever going there by MIL. My criminal lawyer even told me that the DA told her that my wife did not want to prosecute for her BS accusation, but my MIL wanted me to go to prison for 5 years!
My wife has never been strong enough to stand up to her mother. My guess is that her mother has been threatening my wife to do it her away or face eviction from her home (or worse).

She truly planned to destroy my marriage, and she did. Now she is trying to destroy me, which she won't.



> What your MIL knows is that no one will ever be good enough for her precious daughter, because she probably judges all men to be the same like her ex husband or her father. What she wants to hear is that she's right, you were wrong, and feel like she's won. However, you don't have to give up your paternal custody rights here. Just agree with her for right now without any "buts".


My MIL is still married, but my FIL is totally controlled by my MIL. As an example, when this thing started, my father called her father and said to him "I think it's time we had a man to man talk." What did my FIL do? He said "hold on" then put MIL on the phone.



> What I'm thinking is you work with whatever your wife and MIL are willing to give you, which may mean forgoing custody visits for a couple weeks and phoning your daughter. If they're going to leverage your daughter against you in this fight, then how about you stop letting them do this and try to calm them down first. And the way you calm them down is just by letting them think they've won and feeding their ego.


I've already tried that and it failed miserably. My MIL wants me totally out of the picture...forever. Again, she tried to leverage the criminal allegations to get me to sign away my parental rights.



> You still have what 18 years of child support and partial custody (23 or so if she goes to college). If worst comes to worse and you lose custody or your wife takes your daughter and moves far away where you can't reach her, you still have the rest of her life to meet her and be with her. It took me 21 years to meet my dad and I still keep in touch, only once or twice a week because I don't like my step mom (who's younger than me:slap.


Wherever my wife moves, I move. I won't give up on my daughter, no matter what.




> I was in your daughters shoes and let me tell you she's not going to hate you forever based off of her mother's side of the story. She will want to meet you and get to know you, and probably feel relieved when she finally gets to hear your side of the story.


Right now, my daughter goes crazy when she has to leave my house. It's heartbreaking. She hides under the bed and cries hysterically. Nothing is going to tear us apart.



> The only thing that really sucks about losing these custody battles in a feminist court system (gender biased towards men in custody cases) is that your wife can lie and cry in court and claim she gave up her career for your marriage (when really she just quit), and just throw you under the bus... which she already has done and will continue to manipulate the courts to punish you. That's why I'm telling you to agree with her and patch things up briefly until the papers are filed and can't be changed


The only way to patch things up would be to sign away my parental rights. That ain't NEVER going to happen. I'm going to fight this one all the way to the end.


----------



## Nsweet

I think you need this. :rofl:
Amazon.com: VOODOO DOLL - MOTHER IN LAW: Toys & Games


----------



## Jellybeans

I guess I am one of the strange ones -- I actually loved my mother in law. She is very sweet. She told me that of her 3 daughter in laws, I was always her favorite.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Yeah, I wouldn't dare give up a single visit. They will use that against you saying you don't really want time with her or you only want 50/50 to lessen the support.

I would try to set up appointments for family therapy on your time with your daughter. If it's Wednesdays, go those days. You can tell your daughter that you understand how hard it is for her to feel she has to choose to be loyal to one of her parents when she should be able to love both and that this person/therapist is going to help you both figure out a way to do that. 

If you have to later on, forget the GAL and go the private route by issuing a subpoena for the therapist. They cannot testify to confidential stuff you or your child has said, BUT they can say things like "based on my professional opinion, the child feels she must always take the mother's side in any disagreement between the parents and I would recommend the courts employ a parallel parenting plan to keep the child out of the middle of any parental disagreements". 

It might even be better for you to go to the person first alone, describe what you are dealing with and that you want your daughter to have her own safe place to work through some of her fears/issues/concerns and then stay out of it. If your daughter speaks to the therapist alone on a regular basis, that is DD's therapist, not YOURS. Could be very useful.

In my case I had one and it was for both of us to work through some stuff pertaining to divorce - I felt she was disrespectful of me, somewhat fearful of her father and acting out because of being put in the middle by him... XH did say in court that therapist was not unbiased as she was therapist for both DD and me but in the end the judge wrote in her findings that the therapist was found to not take sides with XH or me but to be an advocate for DD. If your judge is not as clear-sighted perhaps just having DD go is of benefit. Regardless of whether or not it helps your case, it may help her adjust to going between houses since it is becoming so traumatic for her to go back.


----------



## wilderness

EnjoliWoman said:


> Yeah, I wouldn't dare give up a single visit. They will use that against you saying you don't really want time with her or you only want 50/50 to lessen the support.
> 
> I would try to set up appointments for family therapy on your time with your daughter. If it's Wednesdays, go those days. You can tell your daughter that you understand how hard it is for her to feel she has to choose to be loyal to one of her parents when she should be able to love both and that this person/therapist is going to help you both figure out a way to do that.
> 
> If you have to later on, forget the GAL and go the private route by issuing a subpoena for the therapist. They cannot testify to confidential stuff you or your child has said, BUT they can say things like "based on my professional opinion, the child feels she must always take the mother's side in any disagreement between the parents and I would recommend the courts employ a parallel parenting plan to keep the child out of the middle of any parental disagreements".
> 
> It might even be better for you to go to the person first alone, describe what you are dealing with and that you want your daughter to have her own safe place to work through some of her fears/issues/concerns and then stay out of it. If your daughter speaks to the therapist alone on a regular basis, that is DD's therapist, not YOURS. Could be very useful.
> 
> In my case I had one and it was for both of us to work through some stuff pertaining to divorce - I felt she was disrespectful of me, somewhat fearful of her father and acting out because of being put in the middle by him... XH did say in court that therapist was not unbiased as she was therapist for both DD and me but in the end the judge wrote in her findings that the therapist was found to not take sides with XH or me but to be an advocate for DD. If your judge is not as clear-sighted perhaps just having DD go is of benefit. Regardless of whether or not it helps your case, it may help her adjust to going between houses since it is becoming so traumatic for her to go back.


This is a great idea. It may not be possible at this time, because I lost my job due to the legal trouble, but in the long term I surely like this strategy. Need to find a new job. Thing is, it's tough to keep a job right now with all of this legal stuff. I'd have to miss a lot of work, unfortunately.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

wilderness said:


> This is a great idea. It may not be possible at this time, because I lost my job due to the legal trouble, but in the long term I surely like this strategy. Need to find a new job. Thing is, it's tough to keep a job right now with all of this legal stuff. I'd have to miss a lot of work, unfortunately.


United Family Services. Division of United Way - they offer family, couple and individual counseling based on income. When I was unemployed it was $7 a visit. When I got a job it was $50 for an hour visit. They also happened to accept most insurance for when I secured a job. We saw a LCSW. It wasn't for legal strategy - it really was to get help parenting DD but it turned out to be a very useful thing. The judge even ordered XH to go to her for a few sessions but eventually XH poisoned DD against the therapist by telling DD that the therapist testified in court against him.  Then she refused to go because she didn't think what she said was confidential and didn't feel she could trust the therapist anymore, which was a shame. They had a good thing for a while.


----------



## wilderness

Rough day today. I had my final mediation session yesterday before trial and it was a disaster. Their lawyer offered absolutely nothing. They offered to give me a small amount of time on Christmas, Thanksgiving, and Christmas eve and that's it. Obviously this is time that I'll receive no matter what. Of course, even if I receive it they won't honor the parenting time most likely so I'll have to chase it after the fact by filing contempt motions.
Their attorney also told me they are going to take away my parenting time due to my 'criminal incident'. That's not going to happen as even a convicted felon gets every other weekend. (I have only a misdemeanor, fortunately)

I miss my daughter. The last time she stayed over, she said to me: 
"Dada?"
me- "yes."
Her- "This is my favorite night, because I get to spend it with you."

It hurts so bad to be away from her.


----------



## wilderness

Nothing good to report. Unfortunately this keeps getting worse and worse. 

I did not get to see my daughter over the holidays. The enemy camp claimed that I chose not to see her, which couldn't be further from the truth. 

There was an ugly incident involving my my XMIL and my mother. The XMIL screamed at the top of her lungs at my mother. I responded by telling my XMIl that if she ever raised her voice to my mother again I would go to the police and file assault charges against her. The result is that they no longer take any of my good night phone calls, so I don't get to speak to my daughter anymore unless it's during a visit.

I may have to fire my attorney. I have insisted that the next time we go before the judge, he mention a couple of things (her mother's assault on my mother, their offer to drop the criminal charges in exchange for me signing away custody, etc etc). I don't think he is willing to do it. I don't think it is 'politically correct' for the man to defend himself in this way. He hasn't even been returning my calls.

I have accepted that this battle can't be won without finding a way to clear my name. I've thought of writing a short book, or screenplay, trying to find a reporter to write about my story, ANYTHING to change things. As it stands right now, no one will listen to what I have to say.


----------



## Morgiana

Wilderness, we don't see eye to eye on many things, but dealing with crazy ex-spouses does suck. I understand your pain.


----------



## wilderness

More disappointment to report. I heard from my X by text for the first time in 1.5 years the other day. I didn't recognize the phone number, so I texted back "who is this?". No response, so I called, and my x picked up. I hung up immediately. She called back twice and left a message for me to call back. Of course, no way was I going to risk this with an outstanding restraining order. So I didn't call back. What does she then do? She goes to the police and tries to get me arrested. It didn't work, but it was a stressful couple of days.


----------



## Ceegee

wilderness said:


> More disappointment to report. I heard from my X by text for the first time in 1.5 years the other day. I didn't recognize the phone number, so I texted back "who is this?". No response, so I called, and my x picked up. I hung up immediately. She called back twice and left a message for me to call back. Of course, no way was I going to risk this with an outstanding restraining order. So I didn't call back. What does she then do? She goes to the police and tries to get me arrested. It didn't work, but it was a stressful couple of days.



Wow. Amazing.


----------



## vi_bride04

....yeah b/c having you arrested will make you want to talk to her even more!



Where are people's brains now adays? 

Sorry you are still dealing with a completely crazy ex. It seems like after 1.5yrs she would have moved on a bit by now?


----------



## wilderness

This weekend was very hairy. My ex mil tried every dirty trick in the book to prevent my parenting time. To make a very long story short, after fighting with everything I've got, I got to see my daughter. The end of the visit was absolutely heartbreaking as she cried her eyes out, not wanting to leave. 

I need to do something, I need a better plan. My daughter needs me and my hands are tied. I can't even go by her preschool to see her, because part of the restraining order is that I can't go there. 

I need to fight harder. I promised my little girl that I would never give up on her and I have to keep that promise.


----------



## lenzi

You're in a really tough spot, the cards are stacked against you and you're in a huge hole. If it helps, you're not alone. This sort of stuff happens to fathers (and sometimes mothers) all the time.

It happened to me. I was served with an Order of Protection early in the divorce process, it was completely bogus, eventually dropped, but during the first few months I couldn't see my kids without supervision, and they were reluctant to see me anyway. They thought dad was some sort of monster that the police took away. (I didn't go to jail, but I wasn't allowed to go by the house, and couldn't see my children without a court approved third party). 

Even though we got past it, there was a lot of damage done and for a 3 year period my eldest daughter didn't speak to me and my youngest went 2 years.

You are being alienated from your kids, and don't think for a minute the restraining order had anything to do with some argument you had. Your ex is using the legal system to her advantage, and she's twisting, fabricating and outright lying to make you seem to be the worst person on the face of the planet. As far as she (and her family) are concerned, your daughter is better off without having a father in her life, and they'll do everything they can to try to make that happen. It could be all about the money (child $upport), or they could really believe that you are a bad person.

So what can you do?

Become an expert on parental alienation, join father's rights support groups, read up on case law either online and/or at your local court house law library, and make sure you've got an attorney that is very experienced in this sort of thing, because you've got an uphill battle ahead of you for sure.

You might understand why some fathers throw their hands in the air and walk away from their children in frustration and despair, sometimes they meet someone new, and start new families. And the children they leave behind are told "see, your father never loved you, he abandoned you!". 

Today, I'm close with my eldest daughter who is now 21 with 2 kids of her own; she doesn't even speak to my exwife. She's getting married soon, and she won't even be inviting her mother. My younger daughter, after not speaking to me for 2 years- moved in with me for about a year. She eventually moved back with mom (she says I was too strict), but the point being I was in a situation similar to yours (but not nearly as bad), and things worked out better much than I expected. Because I never gave up, although to be honest I was getting close there for a while, it was hard to even get through the day, I felt like I was banging my head against the wall. 

Quite often alienating tactics backfire, the kids figure it out because they realize what they're being told doesn't match the truth. 

I can throw you a few links to websites for dads in your situation, if you want drop me a message and I'll send them over.

I will recommend a good book, it's written by actor Alec Baldwin, he was in almost the exact same situation as you. If you read it, you'll find yourself nodding just about every other page.

He even talks as you did, about how his daughter really enjoyed one particular night they had together, he made sure her favorite food was stocked in the kitchen cabinets. A real tear jerker, especially for us guys who have been estranged from our kids by a vindictive, cruel exwife.

Here's the link to the book

A Promise to Ourselves: A Journey Through Fatherhood and Divorce: Alec Baldwin: Amazon.com: Books

Get several books on Parental Alienation. You'll read a lot of stories nearly identical to yours along with some strategies for dealing with it, although unfortunately there's no easy fix. 



vi_bride04 said:


> ....yeah b/c having you arrested will make you want to talk to her even more!
> 
> 
> 
> Where are people's brains now adays?


She's not trying to get him to talk to her!

It was a setup to get him to break the restraining order.



wilderness said:


> I may have to fire my attorney. I have insisted that the next time we go before the judge, he mention a couple of things (her mother's assault on my mother, their offer to drop the criminal charges in exchange for me signing away custody, etc etc). I don't think he is willing to do it. I don't think it is 'politically correct' for the man to defend himself in this way. He hasn't even been returning my calls.


Yes, you need to find different representation. I went through 4 attorneys in my divorce. None of them were all that good. You'd think for the amount they charge per hour they'd be rolling out the red carpet for you.


----------



## lenzi

Nsweet said:


> And if your wife is absolutely viscous and adamant about twisting the legal system to hurt you (so she can feel she's won), you may need to just let her have your daughter. I don't want that to happen, but I'm just telling you because I've seen some ex wives pull some nasty tricks.
> 
> Trust me, you don't want to be pulled into court defending child molestation charges because your ex wife finds your daughter has a yeast infection and want to keep harassing you for custody. And you just really don't want to lose everything because women like this do not give up in a fight. I'm telling you she could end up costing you a fortune and send you to the nut house.


Unfortunately this is good advice, even though you probably don't want to hear it.

My last attorney said the same thing to me as we approached divorce trial after 3 yrs and over $200,000 in combined legal fees and my children not even speaking to me. Give her custody of the kids, let things cool down and then rebuild your relationship with your children.

And that's pretty much what I did. And as I said in my post above, eventually my daughters came around. 

To fight for custody given the odds against you at this point might be emotionally and financially devastating. 

Pick your battles. It just might be time to wave the white flag and say "ok, you've got sole custody, but I want liberal visitation and decision-making" or something along those lines. 

This is something you can discuss with your NEXT attorney.


----------



## Shooboomafoo

Glad you are thinking along the lines of a different attorney. Sure do feel for you and your situation man. Divorce Information for Men and Fathers | Cordell and Cordell | DadsDivorce.com has a lot of similar situations being posted by dads in the same boat, and there are a few alternative ideas presented that you wont find in TAM. 
Keep your faith in Christ, He managed to do some amazing things in my situation despite the odds.


----------



## wilderness

lenzi said:


> Unfortunately this is good advice, even though you probably don't want to hear it.
> 
> My last attorney said the same thing to me as we approached divorce trial after 3 yrs and over $200,000 in combined legal fees and my children not even speaking to me. Give her custody of the kids, let things cool down and then rebuild your relationship with your children.
> 
> And that's pretty much what I did. And as I said in my post above, eventually my daughters came around.
> 
> To fight for custody given the odds against you at this point might be emotionally and financially devastating.
> 
> Pick your battles. It just might be time to wave the white flag and say "ok, you've got sole custody, but I want liberal visitation and decision-making" or something along those lines.
> 
> This is something you can discuss with your NEXT attorney.



Well she already has physical custody but we share joint legal custody. If it were so easy to give up legal in exchange for more time with my daughter, I would have already done it. Their goal is to get me totally out of my daughter's life. I have to fight for every second I get with her.


----------



## wilderness

Shooboomafoo said:


> Glad you are thinking along the lines of a different attorney. Sure do feel for you and your situation man. Divorce Information for Men and Fathers | Cordell and Cordell | DadsDivorce.com has a lot of similar situations being posted by dads in the same boat, and there are a few alternative ideas presented that you wont find in TAM.
> Keep your faith in Christ, He managed to do some amazing things in my situation despite the odds.


I belong to that site already. One of the biggest problems that I face is that I live in one of the worst jurisdictions in the country for fathers. I have tried a lot of the suggested tactics I read about on the forum, but they have all failed, for various reasons. But I won't give up.


----------



## indiecat

You only fail if you quit trying. Do what you can, but remember to look after yourself. You are no good to your daughter if you get sick over all of this.


----------



## wilderness

Zanne said:


> Hi, Wilderness. Are you still in the wilderness? How are things on the custody front? Any news about exposing your XW's shenanigan's?
> 
> I don't know if you listen to contemporary Christian music, but I heard an oldie, but goodie today...Tobymac's "Made To Love You". The following verses made me think of you:
> 
> "The dream's alive with my eyes opened wide
> Back in the ring you've got me swinging for the grand prize
> I feel the haters spittin vapors on my dreams
> But I still believe"
> 
> tobymac-Made To Love with lyrics - YouTube


Thank you for asking, Zanne. There is an investigation underway, which I cannot talk about at this time. I am hopeful it will be resolved in my favor.

Other than that, things are horrible. I'll post soon. I have to be in the mood to defend myself against the inevitable vicious attacks that I'm sure a post updating my situation will illicit. The 'it's his fault he is being abused' crowd, I'm fairly certain, will be chomping at the bit.

Regardless, thank you for asking.


----------

