# The reason beta males pedestalize women



## Adex

Very true.

The Reason Beta Males Pedestalize Women « Chateau Heartiste

"Eventually, the beta male gets married, and his lack of experience — one to three lifetime “partners” (and I use the term loosely) is the norm — has cultivated in him a strong inability to read women’s signals, which sometimes leads him into blissful ignorance where infidelities can linger for years unnoticed, and “Surprise! I have a divorce paper!” gambits accost him like hammer blows to the head. Mostly, though, he floats through his marriage thinking the best of his wife, and worst of himself should feelings turn sour or the sex dry up. Because this is just what men are supposed to do when a woman is less than happy: take the blame. Women are the weaker sex, after all."


----------



## Holland

Do men follow and believe this tripe about women?


----------



## Gaia

Apparently so holland. Thankfully not all men do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Holland said:


> Do men follow and believe this tripe about women?


No.


----------



## humanbecoming

ERMAHGERD!

NOW I know what my problem has been all along!*


----------



## Cosmos

With odious terms like "manjawed femc*nt" and "b!tch tits" it's not hard to suss the mentality of people who frequent sites like that.

The anger and misogyny, there, is deafening...


----------



## RandomDude

Adex, how would you feel about a woman coming on here and posting some seriously spiteful feminist sh-t? Cause this is what you are doing.

These sites are taking good principles such as standing your ground as man/being firm with your boundaries/not smothering your SO to the point she has no space/etc. But then it twists up as an excuse to be an a$$hole. 

Their hate expressed in their words are such an obvious retaliatory response from bitter men who have been "nice guys" and "doormats" who think manning up means being a jerk.


----------



## Dollystanford

what a load of horsesh*t


----------



## I Notice The Details

Holland said:


> Do men follow and believe this tripe about women?


No we dont...


----------



## T&T

Holland said:


> Do men follow and believe this tripe about women?


Nope


----------



## unbelievable

It's got nothing to do with "experience". A male raised with very strict, traditionalist values has been taught a few things: 1. Honor and respect his mother. 2. A man doesn't hit a woman. 3. A decent man doesn't yell or curse a woman. 4. Take care of your business and don't complain, whine, or snitch. 5. A man financially supports his wife and kids.
Now, those values work really well for him if he marries a traditionalist woman. Stick him in a relationship with the typical American Princess or feminist, meth cooker, cheater, sociopath, etc, and he's got problems. He won't yell or hit a woman. He's been taught to keep the peace and to keep the appearance of peace in his home. She knows she can be as sorry as dirt or as mean as a snake and he'll dutifully trudge off to work every day. If he ever complains to her, all she has to do is threaten to divorce him and take his kids. A traditionist male doesn't grow up concentrating on making himself happy. He grows up trying to please his parents, his boss, his teachers, his military superiors...through work. Protecting himself against disrespect is not even on his radar screen. Add to that, many traditionalist men are also very religious. If one believes divorce is a sin and that God knows about and is in charge of their circumstances, that suffering is educational, and they are going to live forever somewhere else, they are absolved of the responsibility of seeing to their own well-being, safety, finances, and quality of life.


----------



## ocotillo

Holland said:


> Do men follow and believe this tripe about women?


Not all of us


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Adex,honey,I am dying to read your life story.I want to know all about the woman who did this to you.


----------



## WyshIknew

Gawd!

I might as well pack up go home and give up. There's no hope for me.

I wish I was Alpha. It's obviously the answer to life the universe and everything.


----------



## Amplexor

Holland said:


> Do men follow and believe this tripe about women?


Tripe? I love tripe. I'll take mine lightly poached with a side of veal sausage please. Chop, chop sweet-cakes, your alpha is waiting.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Amplexor said:


> Chop, chop sweet-cakes, your alpha is waiting.


I need to put that in my signature.Classic!


----------



## T&T

Amplexor said:


> Tripe? I love tripe. I'll take mine lightly poached with a side of veal sausage please. Chop, chop sweet-cakes, your alpha is waiting.


I find it hard to believe a REAL alpha would use the words "sweet- cakes" :rofl:


----------



## I Notice The Details

unbelievable said:


> Stick him in a relationship with the typical American Princess...


I do call my wife a "Princess"...and she loves it....just saying...


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

Actually,there is a huge amount of men that pedestalize women. Look at every man who gives up all of his friends, hobbies and everything that made him himself and a man, just because he was scared his gf/wife would leave.

Abandonment issues are a real deal and it is affecting higher amounts of men than ever.


----------



## SpinDaddy

*Adex My Man:*

TAM has really opened my eyes in the last month or so and made me truly grateful for our, albeit not perfect, marriage in which Ms. Spin and I have *mutually *vowed to love, honor, cherish, respect, support, obey and sometimes when the lights are out worship each other.

I read your link and it is disturbing. All I can say is you will never achieve peace following the edicts of the defeated and down trodden. SMH.


----------



## Thundarr

RandomDude said:


> These sites are taking good principles such as standing your ground as man/being firm with your boundaries/not smothering your SO to the point she has no space/etc. But then it twists up as an excuse to be an a$$hole.
> 
> Their hate expressed in their words are such an obvious retaliatory response from bitter men who have been "nice guys" and "doormats" who think manning up means being a jerk.


:iagree:


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

Actually , Chateau Heartiste is a great blog, it just isn't for everyone. I read it like it's a Bill Hicks comedy show, there are a lot of dark and ugly things being said, but underneath it all there is a very good message to take home.

And come on have you ever read any mildly feminist website and the garbage that has been spewed there for years. When women do it, it's being strong independent women. When men do the same, it's ugly, deplorable and unacceptable.


----------



## naga75

unbelievable said:


> It's got nothing to do with "experience". A male raised with very strict, traditionalist values has been taught a few things: 1. Honor and respect his mother. 2. A man doesn't hit a woman. 3. A decent man doesn't yell or curse a woman. 4. Take care of your business and don't complain, whine, or snitch. 5. A man financially supports his wife and kids.
> Now, those values work really well for him if he marries a traditionalist woman. Stick him in a relationship with the typical American Princess or feminist, meth cooker, cheater, sociopath, etc, and he's got problems. He won't yell or hit a woman. He's been taught to keep the peace and to keep the appearance of peace in his home. She knows she can be as sorry as dirt or as mean as a snake and he'll dutifully trudge off to work every day. If he ever complains to her, all she has to do is threaten to divorce him and take his kids. A traditionist male doesn't grow up concentrating on making himself happy. He grows up trying to please his parents, his boss, his teachers, his military superiors...through work. Protecting himself against disrespect is not even on his radar screen.


:iagree:
this is what happened to me.
kept my nose to the grindstone in order to keep the peace and take care of my family, like i was RAISED to do... and my "princess" and entitled of a wife used it against me with a vengeance. 
i have since changed my ways to include making MYSELF happy. and sometimes that upsets the wife. to that, i say..."oh well".


----------



## unbelievable

An honest, hard-working, loyal employee can be exploited and so can a decent husband. In earlier days, a pushy, foul-mouthed battle-axe of a heifer would be ostracized and/or punished by society just as a sorry, no-account, lazy husband and father, would. In both cases, society excuses and tolerates these behaviors but punishes offended spouses who try to correct matters, themselves. In my role as Sergeant, the easiest soldiers I might exploit are those with traditional values. I could work them to death or ask them to charge a machinegun nest armed with only an entrenching tool and they'd do so without complaint. They are the best warriors I have and also make the best leaders. They are far from being weak or Betas. They are merely reliable and self-motivating. I don't have to coddle them or cajole them to do their duty (and also the duties of the sorry-assed types, if I permit). These are the people that make the world go round and what passes oftentimes for Alphas, go along for the ride.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

unbelievable said:


> An honest, hard-working, loyal employee can be exploited and so can a decent husband. In earlier days, a pushy, foul-mouthed battle-axe of a heifer would be ostracized and/or punished by society just as a sorry, no-account, lazy husband and father, would. In both cases, society excuses and tolerates these behaviors but punishes offended spouses who try to correct matters, themselves. In my role as Sergeant, the easiest soldiers I might exploit are those with traditional values. I could work them to death or ask them to charge a machinegun nest armed with only an entrenching tool and they'd do so without complaint. They are the best warriors I have and also make the best leaders. They are far from being weak or Betas. They are merely reliable and self-motivating. I don't have to coddle them or cajole them to do their duty (and also the duties of the sorry-assed types, if I permit). These are the people that make the world go round and what passes oftentimes for Alphas, go along for the ride.


Actually, being exploited and not setting boundaries is pretty lame and non-selfrespecting. Say what you can about jerks, but at the end of the day, they get what they want.

In fact, the only differences between a jerk and a self-respecting man are respecting others and morals. 

So basically what you want to be is a jerk who respects others and who has morals.:smthumbup:


----------



## Faithful Wife

Adex...I had high hopes when you recently posted that you realized you needed to actually LISTEN to the women here who are telling you what they want and stop just assuming that you already know what they want (apparently based on only internet reading).

I was really hoping you had started to make some progress toward maturity, but based on these two posts in the MR, you are still stuck on trying to impose what you BELIEVE upon other people's REALITY. You can believe whatever you want, but it will not change another's reality one bit.


----------



## Cubby

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Actually , Chateau Heartiste is a great blog, it just isn't for everyone. I read it like it's a Bill Hicks comedy show, there are a lot of dark and ugly things being said, but underneath it all there is a very good message to take home.
> 
> And come on have you ever read any mildly feminist sight and the garbage that has been spewed there for years. When women do it, it's being strong independent women. When men do the same, it's ugly, deplorable and unacceptable.


:iagree: There's a lot to learn from Chateau Heartiste (Roissy) about the nature of women. His writings come from a single pick-up artist viewpoint, and he's not a proponent of marriage, so you have to pick and choose what to apply to your situation. 

But having been way too beta and one who put women I was attracted to on a pedestal in my past, I found a lot that made sense in the linked article. I always used to wonder why the girls I really liked a lot and treated very, very nicely, and was very agreeable with, etc, only liked me 'as a friend.' And then the girls I used to treat somewhat brusquely chased after me.


----------



## hookares

Adex said:


> Very true.
> 
> The Reason Beta Males Pedestalize Women « Chateau Heartiste
> 
> "Eventually, the beta male gets married, and his lack of experience — one to three lifetime “partners” (and I use the term loosely) is the norm — has cultivated in him a strong inability to read women’s signals, which sometimes leads him into blissful ignorance where infidelities can linger for years unnoticed, and “Surprise! I have a divorce paper!” gambits accost him like hammer blows to the head. Mostly, though, he floats through his marriage thinking the best of his wife, and worst of himself should feelings turn sour or the sex dry up. Because this is just what men are supposed to do when a woman is less than happy: take the blame. Women are the weaker sex, after all."


I seldom use the word, but I HATE reading this because it describes the man I was for over twenty years.
Rest assured it isn't me now nor ever again.


----------



## LovesHerMan

Pedestalize--not a word.

Just like the people who believe this nonsense--not real men.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

lovesherman said:


> Pedestalize--not a word.
> 
> Just like the people who believe this nonsense--not real men.


Oh darling, tell us who these fabled "Real Men" are. Please?

If it works, it works. I love how when a man does anything that someone doesn't agree with, he is immediately classified as "not a real man."


----------



## unbelievable

I suppose there is a place for self-serving folks who sit around worrying about whether their own toast is sufficiently buttered. History is made by those who believe in something larger than themselves and who sacrifice for the many. We didn't litter Normandy Beach with the bodies of people primarily concerned for their own well-being. One can demand outward displays of respect but true respect is earned. The Pattons and Ghengis Khans of the world would be nothing without the legions of quietly loyal warriors doing their dirty work.


----------



## Caribbean Man

unbelievable said:


> . The Pattons and Ghengis Khans of the world would be nothing without the legions of quietly loyal warriors doing their dirty work.


:iagree:..but sometimes I wonder if people really _get_ that?


----------



## unbelievable

U.S. Soldiers get it. That's why Selfless Service is one of our 7 Army Values. It's the difference between having a duty and having a job. What family or what company could survive if men only went to work on the days they felt respected and valued? What marriage could survive if both partners focused only or primarily on their own desires. it's a team effort and nobody gets to be the quarterback every day..


----------



## ocotillo

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Oh darling, tell us who these fabled "Real Men" are. Please?
> 
> If it works, it works. I love how when a man does anything that someone doesn't agree with, he is immediately classified as "not a real man."


I think the problem lies in the fact that putting a woman on a pedestal does not automatically equal "Beta."

I've told the story of my FIL on TAM more than once. Six foot eight. A certified genius. An officer in the Strategic Air Command. He'd forgotten more ways to kill someone with improvised weapons than I'll ever know. Treated his wife like a goddess. 

The skinny, little pencil-necks who write these articles reveal who they truly are via their core assumptions.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

ocotillo said:


> I think the problem lies in the fact that putting a woman on a pedestal does not automatically equal "Beta."
> 
> I've told the story of my FIL on TAM more than once. Six foot eight. A certified genius. An officer in the Strategic Air Command. He'd forgotten more ways to kill someone with improvised weapons than I'll ever know. Treated his wife like a goddess.


My husband has always put me on a pedestal - since we've met....been my #1 fan....even when I may not have deserved it over the years...It was HE who taught me how to love. ....I'm a little spoiled even! ...... But ya know...he's always been "my everything" at the same time.. so what's wrong with that. 

I so appreciate him being the loving Doting husband he IS. 

I still wouldn't call him Alpha primarily ...but it still means the world to me....even if he doesn't carry comparable credentials of a said Alpha Air Commander , or similar. 


__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content












Adex said:


> "Eventually, the beta male gets married, and his lack of experience — one to three lifetime “partners” (and I use the term loosely) is the norm


 I preferred a man who didn't parade his Di** around in his youth. That would have been a deal breaker for me... a complete TURN OFF. There is something very beautiful about learning & growing together sexually / emotionally. 



> *unbelievable said* : It's got nothing to do with "experience". A male raised with very strict, traditionalist values has been taught a few things: 1. Honor and respect his mother. 2. A man doesn't hit a woman. 3. A decent man doesn't yell or curse a woman. 4. Take care of your business and don't complain, whine, or snitch. 5. A man financially supports his wife and kids.
> *Now, those values work really well for him if he marries a traditionalist woman.*












I think I am going to do a thread on why Betas are Better for some women... Can we accept that ....Finding a partner should be about "Compatibility". It bothers me how the word is so often abused ....as nothing but weak & of lessor value in comparison to Alpha males. 

But of course.... I am of the Old Fashioned Traditionalist variety...who wanted to settle down younger, have children/ a growing family to share our lives with...a faithful emotionally present husband who'd make a present attentive Father, why would I want less. For excitement [email protected]#$%^ Our abode brings enough of that on - in itself. 

Not all women abuse this......the ones who do... well, I don't really understand that.... something else is going on... loss of attraction, Love Languages off...growing resentment, lack of communication... I don't know... 

I do feel those naturally tipped Beta need to be ever so careful the type of woman they attach themselves to.... especially those primarily attracted to the Alpha types.


----------



## ScaredandUnsure

/facepalm


----------



## Holland

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Actually , Chateau Heartiste is a great blog, it just isn't for everyone. I read it like it's a Bill Hicks comedy show, there are a lot of dark and ugly things being said, but underneath it all there is a very good message to take home.
> 
> *And come on have you ever read any mildly feminist website and the garbage that has been spewed there for years.* When women do it, it's being strong independent women. When men do the same, it's ugly, deplorable and unacceptable.


Two wrongs will never make a right.

All this trash is aimed at weak, under developed men so they can pick up weak, under developed women. That is fine.

But if a man wants a strong, confident woman he will not get her by using drivel such as The Sixteen Commandments Of Poon.


----------



## jfv

ocotillo said:


> I think the problem lies in the fact that putting a woman on a pedestal does not automatically equal "Beta."
> 
> *I've told the story of my FIL on TAM more than once. Six foot eight. A certified genius. An officer in the Strategic Air Command. He'd forgotten more ways to kill someone with improvised weapons than I'll ever know. Treated his wife like a goddess. *The skinny, little pencil-necks who write these articles reveal who they truly are via their core assumptions.


The thing is this type of advice isn't for Six foot eight officers who know how to kill people. 

Those types can get away with alot more than a skinny little pencil neck whose margin of error with women is zero.


----------



## Pandakiss

nothing wrong with being on a pedestal. it dosent have to be a unmovable, never changing, constant pillar of worship. if behaviors dont reflect the same positives and morals, then it shouldnt be erected mayhap.

to me a "pedestal" is not a bad thing, its saying your person is the best to you, and you are the best to them, they are "your person". you can go out into the world and be an assh0le, but not to your person at home.

you want to treat them a cut above the rest. you hold them to different standards, and views then co-workers, and friends. sidenote, my alpha husband put his alpha chick on this lovely pedestal 20 years ago, and through de-construction, and re-construction, it still stands.

i know that my pedestal isnt permanent. its there because i deserve it. if i do something to fvck it up, i WILL lose it. and of course, i have him on one too.


----------



## in my tree

unbelievable said:


> Now, those values work really well for him if he marries a traditionalist woman. Stick him in a relationship with the typical American Princess or feminist, meth cooker, cheater, sociopath, etc, and he's got problems.


Wow - putting feminists in with princesses, meth addicts, cheaters and sociopaths. I think I need to avoid these types of threads.


----------



## WadeWilson

Oh gifted sage, so wise and full of knowledge to bestow amongst us who don't understand the ways of alphaness...

View attachment 2156



On second thought.... Please, stop...
You want to know the real secret, just be you, don't stop being you, don't let others define you, all this looking into frat boy mentality of what it means to be alpha... Is utter and complete bull... Adopting someone else script is just being furthermore beta... I do what I want and what I feel is necessary, and don't have to explain why, and I hold my wife to the highest and utmost but, if she screws that up, removed it shall be...

It's not what you do, it's what you don't do...


----------



## Thundarr

I don't know why people get so up on arms at these threads. The name is "The reason beta males pedestalize women" not "Is it ok to put each other on a pedestal" or do good men treat women with respect. It's not talking about men who have already figured out how to be a good husband. It's talking about a certain type of dynamic that a lot of men fall into to varying degrees usually when they are married young.

Anyway it seems like too much outrage.


----------



## Cubby

A big component of Chateau Heartiste/Roissy's writings is that what women generally SAY they're attracted to and what they actually ARE attracted are two different things. I don't know, but maybe that's the case right here on this thread with some of the women who disagree with the linked article. Ha ha....just a thought.....


----------



## RandomDude

The whole argument of "women don't know what they want" and that "they say they want one thing but they really want another" is just a bunch of BS in my opinion. In all my years I've noticed a very simple truth and pattern to what women want and it's really a nobrainer; the simple fact is that they just want it *all*.

In that regard I believe people should stop focusing on being "this" or "that" and just learn how to forfill a woman's needs without being a doormat in the process being able to enforce one's boundaries.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Cubby said:


> *A big component of Chateau Heartiste/Roissy's writings is that what women generally SAY they're attracted to and what they actually ARE attracted are two different things*. I don't know, but maybe that's the case right here on this thread with some of the women who disagree with the linked article. Ha ha....just a thought.....


 I don't know that this is Bullsh** Random Dude....I see it all the time....women want ROMANCE...but if he shows it TOO much...she gets bored, too much sensitivity... and he is weak. 

I really DO prefer Beta man..I just like to throw my 2 cents into these threads... I want the High Romance... A man lacking in this ...would not satisfy me... I would have many issues with him & likely be pining for a tipped Beta male. 

An example of a day in a life...me & mine ....song came on the radio ...I grabbed him & we danced...it was ...Even Though We Ain't Got Money, I'm so in love with you honey ..... a few minutes before I was talking about TAM ...the browbeating of Nice Guys...how many go on about them being clingy, weak, and women loose attraction to them... my Husband listens and says back....."what's wrong with clingy?"... he looks down at me & says ...."If you wasn't clingy, you wouldn't be mushy"... and you know ...he's absolutely right... so







... I'm clingy then... He loves it ... and I love it ....

I buried my face in his chest, grabbed him a little tighter... so thankful we have each other... moments like that..are priceless. 

The other night, I mentioned this thread....the insinuation is to down men for the Pedestal (come on, we're not stupid, it was started by ADEX -anything Beta to him is like an unsightly mole growing on top of his nose)...I shared how they were talking about Pedestals... men should never do this... he gets this indignant look and says... "WHY not, we are supposed to treat our woman like that" -that is just how he *IS*... I wouldn't trade that for anything.












> *RandomDude said*: The whole argument of "women don't know what they want" and that "they say they want one thing but they really want another" is just a bunch of BS in my opinion. In all my years I've noticed a very simple truth and pattern to what women want and it's really a nobrainer; the simple fact is that they just want it all .


 And this is the problem, isn't it... we can't have it *ALL*. No man can be *E**V**E**R**Y**T**H**I**N**G*, so decide which type will fulfill what she craves the most...

Some thoughts I have on the differences between Alpha ..and Betas..

What does a woman prefer MORE SO....

*1. * MYSTERIOUS...*or* a giving / willing open Transparency 

*2.* EXCITEMENT/ Adventure *or* more cuddling Contentment

*3*. Manly man- less emotion *or *a Sensitive man (this doesn't = doormat, just open with his feelings, can express tender emotion)

*4.* Higher Test/more Territorial/ more LUST, creative bedroom aggressive .....*or* Lower Test ...more patience, sensual making Love type- a true PLeaser in bed. 

*5*. The man who parties with his buddies watching the Superbowl -loud & carrying on - *or* the man who'd prefer kicking back & watching a Romantic movie with his wife.

*6*. The man who feels you being "Friends" with a woman will destroy the relationship *VS*... the Man who believes the best relationships develop from being >> friends 1st.

*7. *Independent confident -Never let a woman know she is your Priority *VS*... the man who openly shows how much a girl means to him, feeling this is what Love is about, the "one woman" type.

*8.* High Charm - Successful Business Man - has "Presence" -proud to be on his arm ...*VS* doting attentive Father, husband...wants to go to all the kids plays, lives for his family .


----------



## RandomDude

Well SA, when someone asks for one hamburger but then gets forced to eat a hundred of them... they wouldn't really like the hamburgers in the end even though he/she wanted it in the beginning right? lol. Same case with romance/sensitivity. Like Brendan Fraser in the movie Bedazzled hehe - the sensitive wish!

I believe, though perhaps I'm assuming... that most men are capable of being both alpha/beta. Like hey, all those 8 qualities you mentioned - it depends on my mood! lol
But then again probably why my wife calls me a rollercoaster ride... *sigh*

Can never win! Besides, sometimes too she wants lovey doveys, other times she wants to be taken hard, have to pretty much align the freakin stars -.-
Hmmm, that rhymes...


----------



## ocotillo

jfv said:


> The thing is this type of advice isn't for Six foot eight officers who know how to kill people.
> 
> Those types can get away with alot more than a skinny little pencil neck whose margin of error with women is zero.


The point to the anecdote is that female perceptions of a man are not the same thing as male perceptions of a man. 

Maybe the author of the article thought he was simply being witty and pithy by putting "monogamously inclined traditionalists" in the same bucket as "manginas." It comes across as someone who understands the symptom but still doesn't understand the cause.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *RandomDude said* :Well SA, when someone asks for one hamburger but then gets forced to eat a hundred of them... they wouldn't really like the hamburgers in the end even though he/she wanted it in the beginning right? lol. Same case with romance/sensitivity. Like Brendan Fraser in the movie Bedazzled hehe - the sensitive wish!


I didn't see that movie...I am sure they make him out to be a pure duffus....Mine doesn't come off as he is GAY....or a Mr Rogers type.....even I would get terribly bored with that -if he didn't have some kind of EDGE. 

I've also never looked at him as clingy....he's not the type to show me his NEED unless he knows I am receptive to it...so he's not stupid. Though he would be miserable if I was a low driving independent type feminist who couldn't profess needing her man... We don't view saying "







" as some form or insecurity as I've seen referenced to on this forum many times. 



> I believe, though perhaps I'm assuming... that most men are capable of being both alpha/beta. Like hey, all those 8 qualities you mentioned - it depends on my mood! lol
> But then again probably why my wife calls me a rollercoaster ride... *sigh*


 Mine falls on the Beta scale in every single one of those....and if I had to choose between the 2.... I would check mark the way HE IS. He could step it up in 1 or 2 of those areas for me, but some things would just be nit picking on my end. 



> Can never win! Besides, sometimes too she wants lovey doveys, other times she wants to be taken hard, have to pretty much align the freakin stars -.-
> Hmmm, that rhymes...


 Yeah...and we know you struggle with the Lovey Doveys....The Beta in touch with himself would find that like breathing...just as the Alpha in touch with himself could give a girl all the  Rape Fantasies she wanted (that doesn't sound nice, but ...yeah....lots of women have these....just as MEN desire the PORN star in bed. 



> *Rape fantasies* tell us that women want to surrender sexually to a man of tenacious and powerful will. Women crave the feeling of “*being taken*”, and no cautious beta asking politely if he may peer down her blouse or apologizing when she coyly reprimands him for sliding his hand under her bra during a make-out is going to hit that “being taken” button


 See, my husband struggles with this ~~ It is going against something deep inside of him, how he was raised , how he views women... But I get the Romantic I crave...and well... I can be his Porn star. 




Thundarr said:


> Simply, I love that your personal taste doesn't close your mind to differing thoughts so long as those differing thoughts can be observed or speculated using logic.


 I try. 



> *Ocotillo said* Maybe the author of the article thought he was simply being witty and pithy by putting "monogamously inclined traditionalists" in the same bucket as "manginas."


 It's purely condescending....Yes.... I'm sure there's truth to this...and frankly, that is just NOT OK. Some of these Modern Men today...wouldn't be worth the tissue for wipe our butts on... but women ain't exactly helping matters.....to why men no longer see much of an incentive to marry .


----------



## Caribbean Man

Ok,
Based on what I'm getting from the ladies on this thread,
Nothing's wrong with men placing their women on a pedestal.....

Sooooooo,

_*Should women place their men on a pedestal?*_

If yes why?
If no why?


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

I think the word pedestal isn't being used in the right context here.

If you place something on a pedestal, you are giving it a higher value than even yourself. It should never be okay. But feel free to pedestalize me :smthumbup:


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Caribbean Man said:


> Ok,
> Based on what I'm getting from the ladies on this thread,
> Nothing's wrong with men placing their women on a pedestal.....
> 
> Sooooooo,
> 
> _*Should women place their men on a pedestal?*_
> 
> If yes why?
> If no why?


I think you should place each other on a pedestal if both people earn that from each other.that may not work for all types of people though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Holland

Caribbean Man said:


> Ok,
> Based on what I'm getting from the ladies on this thread,
> Nothing's wrong with men placing their women on a pedestal.....
> 
> Sooooooo,
> 
> _*Should women place their men on a pedestal?*_
> 
> If yes why?
> If no why?


It is an interesting question. I said no one should be put on a pedestal because it can lead to great unbalance in a relationship.
But there is more to it than that.

In my marriage the ex placed me way up on a golden pedestal. The problem was that at the same time he did not give me credit for being a normal human with normal human failings.
So when I made mistakes and stuffed up he couldn't give me credit that it was a normal human mistake.
I was golden girl so when I made a mistake he could not deal with it because people on pedestals are not supposed to make mistakes.

If you treat someone like they are above the rest, if you cannot see them as normal humans with normal failings then you are setting you both up for failure.

He got pissed that I was not the perfect woman *he *projected me to be. 
I got pissed because his expectations of me were unrealistic.

In my current relationship I think we both have each other on a pedestal, the difference being that we also have a realistic view of each other. We understand normal human failings.
In our case being on a pedestal means that we hold each other in very high esteem. It is not taken seriously, it is more of a showing off thing "look how freaking amazing my partner is".

So should women put men on a pedestal? I would say yes that is fine as long as it is balanced and not taken too seriously.
As long as she doesn't do it to her own detriment and understands that men can and do fail at times. As long as she can stand by him even when he makes a mistake. and as long as she knows she is his equal and not idolising him because she thinks he is better than her.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Caribbean Man said:


> _*Should women place their men on a pedestal?*_
> 
> If yes why?
> If no why?





> *Shadow_Nirvana said*: I think the word pedestal isn't being used in the right context here.
> 
> If you place something on a pedestal, you are giving it a higher value than even yourself. It should never be okay. But feel free to pedestalize me


I just asked my husband this..... if he sees me as above him... he says... "this is entrapment" ... he said I am awesome & worthy so I deserve the pedestal... Ha ha Wish he'd log in & write this stuff himself...it would sound better coming from him. I asked him if he feels he is just as worthy... he says "Dear...I'm happy". 

Of course we should, we should dance at our husbands feet... well in lap dance style of course. They don't want a Pedestal... they want our deep RESPECT and our enthusiastic DESIRE for them, they want us to be PROUD of them... men need this from their wives... 

We, too, should be their biggest fan (it helps if they live in a respectful responsible manner to protect, Provide & tenderly show love to us).......

We should be their helpmate in all areas of life, have their backs....as they have helped us...someone to come home to - to get away from the rat race, knowing his wife is waiting ...with a smile, open arms...ready for his embrace..and a warm meal would be nice too. Not coming home to a house of contention.


----------



## Caribbean Man

*Absolutely NO ONE should put their partner on a pedestal in a relationship.
*
IT IS A RECIPE FOR DISASTER !

Relationships are supposed to be based on equality , and meeting each other's needs.
Placing someone on a pedestal means that you are putting them way above you.
Your needs would never be met in such a a relationship, because it is one of continuous, obsequious, servitude.


----------



## Holland

HTML:







Caribbean Man said:


> *Absolutely NO ONE should put their partner on a pedestal in a relationship.
> *
> IT IS A RECIPE FOR DISASTER !
> 
> Relationships are supposed to be based on equality , and meeting each other's needs.
> Placing someone on a pedestal means that you are putting them way above you.
> Your needs would never be met in such a a relationship, because it is one of continuous, obsequious, servitude.


Absolutely everyone can make up their own mind on this.

Placing someone on a pedestal is subjective. To me it means my partner is the only man for me. 
It has nothing to do with inequality because we have a very equal relationship.
I remember reading here that in your relationship your you make the decisions (can't remember the thread or the full context). To me that is unequal so I would never live like this. It works for you that is great but to me that would be servitude.
Simply admiring your spouse because they are wonderful while at the same time understanding you are as wonderful is not going to ruin your life.

Using the golden pedestal like my ex did was unbalanced and did cause problems.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Holland said:


> If you treat someone like they are above the rest, if you cannot see them as normal humans with normal failings then you are setting you both up for failure.


 I've never done this with anyone, In fact until I learn some DIRT on someone, I wouldn't feel I knew them . It is kinda like a rule in my head dealing with people. .....show me the dirt !!! If we can accept someone at their worst & still want them in our lives.....that's REAL.... We've gotten somewhere. 



> He got pissed that I was not the perfect woman *he *projected me to be.
> I got pissed because his expectations of me were unrealistic


 Surely he was on the receiving end of the imperfection early on... so why did he hold on to a fantasy... why would people do this ?? Heck...my husband seen me at my worst...early on... I had an attitude. I was a disgruntled young teen & I didn't hide it...I spilled it ... I was sweet too though, I was a mixed bag. He still saw something good in there & hung on. 



> In my current relationship I think we both have each other on a pedestal,* the difference being that we also have a realistic view of each other. We understand normal human failings.*
> In our case being on a pedestal means that we hold each other in very high esteem.


 See, I see this as healthy. It's balanced, no one is a servant. You love him, admire him, Gush, praise, there is a Gratitude there ... what's wrong with that. 



> So should women put men on a pedestal? I would say yes that is fine *as long as it is balanced* and not taken too seriously.
> *As long as she doesn't do it to her own detriment and understands that men can and do fail at times. As long as she can stand by him even when he makes a mistake. and as long as she knows she is his equal and not idolising him because she thinks he is better than her*.


 Balance in all things. I don't see anything wrong with this. 



> *Caribbean Man said*: Relationships are supposed to be based on equality, and meeting each other's needs.













> Placing someone on a pedestal means that you are putting them way above you.


 Is this ALWAYS the intended meaning though... I don't personally look at it like this. I couldn't even love someone who didn't treat me right (I am not an Unconditional lover at all).. I'd make an unruly belligerent servant..carefully planning my escape. 

Though you are right, if it's unbalanced... and one is sacrificing their needs/wants/ desires - to allow the other to live like a selfish Queen...that's a set up for *Unrequited love*/ fulfillment.


----------



## Holland

> Quote:
> He got pissed that I was not the perfect woman he projected me to be.
> I got pissed because his expectations of me were unrealistic
> 
> 
> 
> Surely he was on the receiving end of the imperfection early on... so why did he hold on to a fantasy... why would people do this ?? Heck...my husband seen me at my worst...early on... I had an attitude. I was a disgruntled young teen & I didn't hide it...I spilled it ... I was sweet too though, I was a mixed bag. He still saw something good in there & hung on.


I am sure he got the wrong end of my imperfections early on but sadly like a lot of people we just got caught up in the daily cycle of marriage. I did not know he had become resentful of me and my failings for many years because he never told me. 
He comes from a family where you stay "married till death do you part" so his experience was that you shut up and put up.

I could go on for hours about the disaster that eventually ensued, suffice to say an unbalanced pedestal is a dangerous thing for anyone, man or woman. It is dangerous for the person on the pedestal and the person standing under it.


----------



## WyshIknew

RandomDude said:


> hehe - the sensitive wish!


You called?


----------



## ScarletBegonias

When I say put someone on a pedestal I mean it as treating them as great as you can possibly treat them.giving them 100% even though the rest of the world might only get half that effort from you.i guess my meaning is different than others since I briefly skimmed and saw ABSOLUTELY DO NOT do the pedestal thing LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Caribbean Man

Holland said:


> HTML:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I remember reading here that in your relationship your you make the decisions (can't remember the thread or the full context). To me that is unequal so I would never live like this. It works for you that is great but to me that would be servitude.


No no dear,
You are wrong,
very wrong!

In our relationship and in our business , my wife is my BUSINESS PARTNER. 
I do NOTHING WITHOUT HER APPROVAL.
I also said that she CONSTANTLY CHALLENGES me, and I RESPECT that because it helps me to be a better man.

I could have sat on this forum for the entire afternoon, but I left about three hours ago because my wife came to me and said she was feeling to have Haagen Dazs ice cream. She wanted out of the house and to chill in the park.
I immediately logged off TAM , had a shower and went with her.
We just returned and ,
She wants us to look at a movie , so after I post this response I WILL LOG OFF again _at her request_.

See, I ALWAYS LISTEN TO MY WIFE.

My wife earns her own money and spends it as _she sees fit._ She doesn't have to account to me for anything.
Next month she leaves me home , jumps on an airplane with her friends and my mom , heading for an exclusive resort in St. Lucia. They stay there for 10 days.

How many wives you know whose husband allows them that privilege?

Later this year she goes on a cruise with her best friend.

I always knew her as a strong , independent woman , that's was one of the main things that attracted me.
Before we got married she decided NO SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE.
I agreed to HER CONDITIONS. How many women here on TAM could have told their fiancée that before marriage without being afraid of loosing him?

Later this year we are starting our new home. SHE DID THE BASIC DESIGN. Everything in that house would be exactly HOW SHE WANTS IT.

Here's the icing on the cake.
We have no kids, she earns her own money , we have seperate bank accounts and,
She also owns her own house.
So anytime she wants to leave me, there are absolutely no encumbrances.
The only reason she stays with me is because we both love each other and we have a very good thing going that VERY FEW PEOPLE HAVE.

In this relationship, I'm in charge, and just like in our business, my wife is an equal partner. There are no " power struggles" or questions about who's in charge.
It is MY responsibility to make sure she's safe and secure.
It is MY responsibility to make sure she feels emotionally fulfilled.
It is MY responsibility to keep the marriage on an even keel.
It is MY responsibility to keep intruders outside of our marriage.
It is MY responsibility to keep us financially secure.
It is my responsibility to come up with plans for our future.
When shyt happens,
It is MY responsibility to FIX it.

I have absolutely no problem being married to a woman who wants to lead in a marriage, it makes life easier for me.
However,
My wife has indicated to me time and time again that she wants a STRONG man to lead in our marriage, and like I said in the beginning of this post,she constantly challenges me and,
I ALWAYS LISTEN TO HER.


If that still sounds like servitude to you then that's ok. The lat time my wife and I spoke , she told me that she was extremely happy, to be in that kind of * servitude. *

BTW, _June this year would be 18 blissful years of * servitude .*
We are both eagerly looking forward to it!_


----------



## Thundarr

My marriage sounds very similar to CM's. It's an indicator that we found compatible women for our personalities. I am my wife's rock because she likes having a rock and I also because I like being that rock. It's in my nature to provide and protect but I wouldn't force my nature on her if conflicted with her feeling of independance or self reliance or if she felt controlled or in servitude.

There is some room for dynamics to play out and us still be compatible after all. I wouldn't be so flexible in regards to a lact of respect, honesty, or transparency but that's likely common among most of us on this thread. 

Regarding the ambiguous term "pedestal", it's just important to keep the same accountability and expectations for each other and to see each other as equally responsible and capable and invested.


----------



## jaquen

These threads aren't about beta this, or alpha that. That's just the succulent, ever contentious bait.

They are about one thing, and one thing only: Adex.


----------



## techmom

Caribbean Man said:


> No no dear,
> You are wrong,
> very wrong!
> 
> In our relationship and in our business , my wife is my BUSINESS PARTNER.
> I do NOTHING WITHOUT HER APPROVAL.
> I also said that she CONSTANTLY CHALLENGES me, and I RESPECT that because it helps me to be a better man.
> 
> I could have sat on this forum for the entire afternoon, but I left about three hours ago because my wife came to me and said she was feeling to have Haagen Dazs ice cream. She wanted out of the house and to chill in the park.
> I immediately logged off TAM , had a shower and went with her.
> We just returned and ,
> She wants us to look at a movie , so after I post this response I WILL LOG OFF again _at her request_.
> 
> See, I ALWAYS LISTEN TO MY WIFE.
> 
> My wife earns her own money and spends it as _she sees fit._ She doesn't have to account to me for anything.
> Next month she leaves me home , jumps on an airplane with her friends and my mom , heading for an exclusive resort in St. Lucia. They stay there for 10 days.
> 
> How many wives you know whose husband allows them that privilege?
> 
> Later this year she goes on a cruise with her best friend.
> 
> I always knew her as a strong , independent woman , that's was one of the main things that attracted me.
> Before we got married she decided NO SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE.
> I agreed to HER CONDITIONS. How many women here on TAM could have told their fiancée that before marriage without being afraid of loosing him?
> 
> Later this year we are starting our new home. SHE DID THE BASIC DESIGN. Everything in that house would be exactly HOW SHE WANTS IT.
> 
> Here's the icing on the cake.
> We have no kids, she earns her own money , we have seperate bank accounts and,
> She also owns her own house.
> So anytime she wants to leave me, there are absolutely no encumbrances.
> The only reason she stays with me is because we both love each other and we have a very good thing going that VERY FEW PEOPLE HAVE.
> 
> In this relationship, I'm in charge, and just like in our business, my wife is an equal partner. There are no " power struggles" or questions about who's in charge.
> It is MY responsibility to make sure she's safe and secure.
> It is MY responsibility to make sure she feels emotionally fulfilled.
> It is MY responsibility to keep the marriage on an even keel.
> It is MY responsibility to keep intruders outside of our marriage.
> It is MY responsibility to keep us financially secure.
> It is my responsibility to come up with plans for our future.
> When shyt happens,
> It is MY responsibility to FIX it.
> 
> I have absolutely no problem being married to a woman who wants to lead in a marriage, it makes life easier for me.
> However,
> My wife has indicated to me time and time again that she wants a STRONG man to lead in our marriage, and like I said in the beginning of this post,she constantly challenges me and,
> I ALWAYS LISTEN TO HER.
> 
> 
> If that still sounds like servitude to you then that's ok. The lat time my wife and I spoke , she told me that she was extremely happy, to be in that kind of * servitude. *
> 
> BTW, _June this year would be 18 blissful years of * servitude .*
> We are both eagerly looking forward to it!_


Wow, just wow.... Many men pretend to respect their wife but you truly do, congrats on 18 years:smthumbup:


----------



## 45188

Caribbean Man you are one of my favorite users on this site. Seriously, what a nice post. You're the kinda man most women want. I will -never- date another Alpha again. They can have that unevolved fantasy life in the article.


----------



## sinnister

This is tough to decipher. 

Is this coming across as mysoginistic, over compensating, macho BS, or does this writer have a point? My initial reaction like much of you is to have a little bile come up my throat, but reflecting upon the words...a good majority of this dog poo may actually work.

At the very least to create an aura of confidence and strength in a husband...but for how long? How long would it take for this teenaged big man on campus attitude to wear extremely thin on a strong confident woman?

My wife is as strong as they come. But I wonder if some of this would work? I'm tempted to treat this as an experiment.


----------



## naga75

sinnister said:


> This is tough to decipher.
> 
> Is this coming across as mysoginistic, over compensating, macho BS, or does this writer have a point? My initial reaction like much of you is to have a little bile come up my throat, but reflecting upon the words...a good majority of this dog poo may actually work.
> 
> At the very least to create an aura of confidence and strength in a husband...but for how long? How long would it take for this teenaged big man on campus attitude to wear extremely thin on a strong confident woman?
> 
> My wife is as strong as they come. But I wonder if some of this would work? I'm tempted to treat this as an experiment.


I think it would work. 
On women that are weak mentally or that have not had a strong father figure. Jmo.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thundarr

sinnister said:


> This is tough to decipher.
> 
> Is this coming across as mysoginistic, over compensating, macho BS, or does this writer have a point?


The site he referenced has lots of over compensating techniques for dating that do work. And the USE-CASE starting this thread does occur as well and women likely despise as much as men. I think most women want to be with someone they have respect for but they also want to have it returned.

I recommend different reading for men in relationships.


----------



## Saki

It's an interesting exercise to read all the responses that disagree with the original post and throw the author, and poster, under the bus...

Yet not a single disagreeing response indicates what specifically they disagree with nor do they offer an explaination of why they disagree. 

One laughable response simply states no "real men" would believe what was written there.

Why not?


----------



## jaquen

Saki said:


> Yet not a single disagreeing response indicates what specifically they disagree with nor do they offer an explaination of why they disagree.


This is a clone of a dozen other ADEX threads made in the same vain. If you'd like thorough rebuttals to his claims, do a search, you'll find your fill.


----------



## ocotillo

Saki said:


> Yet not a single disagreeing response indicates what specifically they disagree with nor do they offer an explaination of why they disagree.


I stated why I disagreed. The author got off on the wrong foot when he mentioned, "...monogamously inclined traditionalists" in the same sentence as, "manginas." 

Marriage by its very nature is a monogamous tradition and those who believe in it would be monogamously inclined traditionalists. If the author was only talking about dating and gaming theory, that would be one thing. But if that's the case, he was hardly clear about it, since he does meander into marriage.

From there he indulges in the tired canard that male perceptions of a man correspond with female perceptions of a man. The balance of the essay is littered with demeaning expressions that men generally reserve to belittle the fat, weak and slow within their gender. 

But men and women aren't the same. A man can be, 'Alpha' by any male standard we wish to apply and still be hugely unsuccessful in his relationships with women. I've seen that and even given an example. Conversely, a man can be wildly successful with women and still be the one who sobs uncontrollably like a little girl the first time he sees what a rifle bullet will do to the human body. I've seen that too.

All in all, the article smacks strongly of the "Enthusiasm of the convert." No one despises their former self quite like a true believer does.


----------



## Saki

jaquen said:


> This is a clone of a dozen other ADEX threads made in the same vain. If you'd like thorough rebuttals to his claims, do a search, you'll find your fill.


If you want a behavior to go away, stop paying it attention....

Octillo, you appear to have attempted to make the point that your 6 foot 8 father in law treats his wife like goddesses while he is alpha.

That may or may not be the case, but your telling of the tale relies on 3 items that do not appear to have anything to do with your point.

1) You listed a number of masculine traits of MR father in law, but none of them make him "alpha" in the context of his sucess with women. I know MR father in law only from the facts you have presented, and am obviously unable to determine if he is "alpha" or not.

In fact, if anything, he sounds like a traditional beta PUA chaser, who emphasizes all sorts of things thinking they matter to women. When they dont.

2) You say he treats his wife like a goddess. That is not to say he treats all women that way. Furthermore, it's possible she EARNS that treatment, no?

3) You equate treating a woman like a goddess to pedistalization or however you spell the word that is quite possibly made up. Treating women like a goddess is a behavior, an action. Pedistalization is a paradime, a perspective, a way of thinking about things. It is the opposite of action, it is the internalization of one's thoughts, feelings, and observations. It's the lense that filters all your observations as you turn them into thoughts.

I can certainly see your point about the style of writting (and word choice) not being endearing. It is needlessly offensive, and frankly, a little pompus from where I'm sitting (note, english is my native tongue but that don't mean I can spell worth a crap). 

I agree with you about the enthusiasm of the convert. I was, in fact, just thinking the following: the article will make no sense to natural "alpha's", as it depicts the reality they see in a natural way. It'd be like reading an article explaining the color red, why it's red, what makes it red, how other people don't see it as red. 

To natural beta's, it will make no sense because it will immediately kick in their defensiveness and they would refuse to acknowledge the power of the female id.

The only people to whom it will make sense, to whom the article will resonate with, are the converted beta's, or at least the one's who have opened their eyes. Look at the responses to this thread and you can clearly see who fits into that catagory. 

Then I sat down and read your post and you clearly articulated what I was thinking with the term "enthusiasm of the convert"


----------



## Saki

ocotillo said:


> The balance of the essay is littered with demeaning expressions that men generally reserve to belittle the fat, weak and slow within their gender.


Food for thought:

The only people who have a problem with belittling the fat, weak, and slow....

are the fat, weak, and slow 

I kid.


----------



## jaquen

Saki said:


> If you want a behavior to go away, stop paying it attention...


What I threads I choose to post in, for whatever reasons, are of none of your concern.

You asked where the rebuttals are, and I point you toward where you could find them. Simple. Whether you chose to make that journey, or not, is your own business.


----------



## Amplexor

curious2 said:


> OMG noooo.....take another look. Articles like...how to get a girl to send naked pics...PURELY for sport.


Two words. "Spur Posse"


----------



## Amplexor

The Spur Posse was a group of high school jocks in the early 90s from Lakewood Ca that formed the club. Its sole purpose was a competition to see which could bed the most girls. Their competition quickly changed to preying on overweight, low confidence girls wanting to fit in to the upwardly social clique. Your comment on "sport" triggered my post.


----------



## Saki

curious2 said:


> OMG noooo.....take another look. Articles like...how to get a girl to send naked pics...PURELY for sport! Asking themselves, how can I manipulate this girl into doing this? and thats just one example. I feel sick when reading stuff like this and feel really sorry for the young girls and even women who latch onto this junk.
> 
> If you are a man ...A GOOD MAN...you dont act this way or want a woman who goes along with it.


It dosent clash with my moral compass nearly the way it does with yours.

I'm married. I'd love it if my wife sent me naked pics. But she dosen't. It's a symptom of our sub par, lackluster, passionless sex life.

Another way of looking at it is "how to get women to be so into you that they will send naked pics", or if you are married, "how to get your wife to be so into you that she'll send you naked pics".

Is that REALLY such a stretch?


----------



## ocotillo

Saki said:


> Octillo, you appear to have attempted to make the point that your 6 foot 8 father in law treats his wife like goddesses while he is alpha.


Thanks for your reply.

I'm not a young man. My FIL is deceased and SAC was deestablished in 1992. 




Saki said:


> 1) You listed a number of masculine traits of MR father in law, but none of them make him "alpha" in the context of his sucess with women. I know MR father in law only from the facts you have presented, and am obviously unable to determine if he is "alpha" or not.
> 
> In fact, if anything, he sounds like a traditional beta PUA chaser, who emphasizes all sorts of things thinking they matter to women. When they dont.


Agree and disagree. Treating women the way he did is/was an aspect of military culture. Not so much among enlisted men as among commissioned officers. --Especially among those who considered themselves the 'gentry' of the military. 

Whether that's 'Beta' or not, I don't know. What I *do* know is that the author of that article would not have said those things to his face. Launch codes were not entrusted to anyone who was likely to crack under interrogation. I trust the significance of that is understood. These men were tested first.




Saki said:


> 2) You say he treats his wife like a goddess. That is not to say he treats all women that way. Furthermore, it's possible she EARNS that treatment, no?


He treated all women that way. Again part of being an officer and a gentleman. If his wife did anything to earn it, I never saw it. From my perspective, it simply facilitated some very bad behavior on her part and on that, perhaps we agree. 



Saki said:


> 3) You equate treating a woman like a goddess to pedistalization or however you spell the word that is quite possibly made up. Treating women like a goddess is a behavior, an action. Pedistalization is a paradime, a perspective, a way of thinking about things. It is the opposite of action, it is the internalization of one's thoughts, feelings, and observations. It's the lense that filters all your observations as you turn them into thoughts.


"Pedestalize" is slang. I assumed it to be a one word term for the colloquialism, "To put on a pedestal", but maybe I'm wrong. If you're the author and you're clarifying it for me, I appreciate it.


----------



## Goldmember357

Holland said:


> Do men follow and believe this tripe about women?


The ones who already have psychological issues do. Its a coping mechanism and it helps them break down life in a simple way. 

Life is not simple though....


----------



## Thundarr

Saki said:


> The only people to whom it will make sense, to whom the article will resonate with, are the converted beta's, or at least the one's who have opened their eyes. Look at the responses to this thread and you can clearly see who fits into that catagory.


Beta blurs with Nice Guy. I don't think they're the same actually. I was a jerk (little bit embarrassed of that) when dating. Confrontational, c0cky, etc. *Once married though* the nice guy switch flipped on. That ended seven years later with a short list of "never agains". That's what happens when fear of failure dictates every move.


----------



## Caribbean Man

I once read a quote that went something like this.

" ..._*The problem with putting people on pedestals becomes obvious when they start giving orders from there*_..."

This is what I call the " Gods and Goddesses " syndrome.

Boy meets girl , goes bonkers for her and cannot believe that she actually likes a plebeian like himself. He puts her on a pedestal and she can do no wrong.
But girl is only human and she will make mistakes.
There can only be two outcomes of this.

Scenario 1]
One day girl makes a little mistake but boy is shocked and dumbfounded , " h_ow could she do this to me?_" he asks himself.
But girl is only human, born to make mistakes.
Boy thinks no, she is a " Goddess" and she should have known better , become resentful , and despises her.

scenario 2]
Girl decides to take her " Goddess Role " seriously. She begins to think that she is entitled to " special treatment " from boy. The more he tries to please her, the higher she sets the bar and the further away from him she grows. She begins to look on him as lower than her and begin to resent him because she doesn't see him as her " equal." 
_She now thinks she can do better than him_....
He now becomes her " Plan B."

Switch things around , where the girl places the boy on a pedestal ,makes him a " God " and we all know that 
" high school " script where he will abuse her love and devotion and break her heart in record time, over and over. Some cases are so bad, that the girl refuses to move on , and even if she does get into another relationship, "old boyfriend " still looms large in her consciousness and he jeopardizes all of her future relationships with men. She is unable to get him out of her life.

*" Pedestalizing " partners in a relationship is not to be confused with treating them with the dignity and respect they rightfully earned and deserve.
This would depend on the dynamics of the relationship and vary based on their level of intimacy.*
It is NEVER a good idea to reward mediocrity or bad behaviour with high platitudes and praise.
That may well be enabling them to further disrespect you.


----------



## Saki

ocotillo said:


> He treated all women that way. Again part of being an officer and a gentleman. If his wife did anything to earn it, I never saw it. From my perspective, it simply facilitated some very bad behavior on her part and on that, perhaps we agree.


That is the point.

Pedistalization (ha you didn't think I could misspell it worse, did you!) leads to the ... pedistalizer ... allowing themselves to be treated very badly. It tends to lead to a "I am the victim" perspective.

Caribbean Man described the scenerio's quite well.


----------



## Thundarr

scenario #3
girl treats boy disrespectfully
boy doesn't take up for himself or doesn't even grasp it
girl thinks boy is a doormat and wipes feet on him regularly
boy get clingy and girl despises him for it


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Thundarr said:


> scenario #3
> girl treats boy disrespectfully
> boy doesn't take up for himself or doesn't even grasp it
> girl thinks boy is a doormat and wipes feet on him regularly
> boy get clingy and girl despises him for it


How about Scenario #4

Girl treats Boy like he deserves to be Treated- because she recognizes (deep down) she found a good thing, a rare thing- a damn near impossible thing -the way many men are today...(expecting sex on the 3rd date for example). 

Boy continues to treat Girl like Gold...

Girl grows ever more thankful she found such a rare male , an answer to her prayers in fact (this is true)

Boy loves to be with Girl...and guess what, Girl loves to be with Boy just as much... the ball & chain is welcomed...they are affectionate best friends...that turn into married Lovers . 

That about describes our relationship anyway. 

Though in the beginning he did need a little patience with me.. I was a little bit of a handful, didn't like my family life, but even then I had a sweet side... but It would fit to say..... I was the "Damsel in distress" and he was my "White Knight". Sometimes there is a good ending to these. 

I don't take advantage of good men, I despise when women do that sort of thing. Watched one of our guy friends go through that, how she was using him Pi$$ed me off.... I'd be the 1st to tell such men >> "loose the B*tch"!


----------



## Cosmos

SimplyAmorous said:


> How about Scenario #4
> 
> Girl treats Boy like he deserves to be Treated- because she recognizes (deep down) she found a good thing, a rare thing- a damn near impossible thing -the way many men are today...(expecting sex on the 3rd date for example).
> 
> Boy continues to treat Girl like Gold...
> 
> Girl grows ever more thankful she found such a rare male , an answer to her prayers in fact (this is true)
> 
> Boy loves to be with Girl...and guess what, Girl loves to be with Boy just as much... the ball chain is welcomed...they are affectionate best friends.
> 
> That about describes our relationship anyway. Sorry to disappoint. Though in the beginning he did need a little patience with me.. I was a little bit of a handful, didn't like my family life, but even then I had a sweet side... but It would fit to say..... I was the "Damsel in distress" and he was my "White Knight". Sometimes there is a good ending to these.
> 
> I don't take advantage of good men, I despise when women do that sort of thing. Watched one of our guy friends go through that, how she was using him Pi$$ed me off.... I'd be the 1st to tell such men "loose the B*tch".


:iagree:

I'm no walk in the park when it comes to relationships, but I'm fortunate that my SO has been strong enough to know how to 'handle' me. The fact that he has stuck by me whilst I've had to do some 'personal adjustments,' without resorting to game playing etc, has earned him my deepest love, trust and absolute respect.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

SimplyAmorous said:


> How about Scenario #4
> 
> Girl treats Boy like he deserves to be Treated- because she recognizes (deep down) she found a good thing, a rare thing- a damn near impossible thing -the way many men are today...(expecting sex on the 3rd date for example).
> 
> Boy continues to treat Girl like Gold...
> 
> Girl grows ever more thankful she found such a rare male , an answer to her prayers in fact (this is true)
> 
> Boy loves to be with Girl...and guess what, Girl loves to be with Boy just as much... the ball chain is welcomed...they are affectionate best friends.
> 
> That about describes our relationship anyway. Sorry to disappoint. Though in the beginning he did need a little patience with me.. I was a little bit of a handful, didn't like my family life, but even then I had a sweet side... but It would fit to say..... I was the "Damsel in distress" and he was my "White Knight". Sometimes there is a good ending to these.
> 
> I don't take advantage of good men, I despise when women do that sort of thing. Watched one of our guy friends go through that, how she was using him Pi$$ed me off.... I'd be the 1st to tell such men "loose the B*tch".



:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:
And in this we are alike


----------



## Caribbean Man

SimplyAmorous said:


> How about Scenario #4
> 
> Girl treats Boy like he deserves to be Treated- because she recognizes (deep down) she found a good thing, a rare thing- a damn near impossible thing -the way many men are today...(expecting sex on the 3rd date for example).
> 
> Boy continues to treat Girl like Gold...
> 
> Girl grows ever more thankful she found such a rare male , an answer to her prayers in fact (this is true)
> 
> Boy loves to be with Girl...and guess what, Girl loves to be with Boy just as much... the ball & chain is welcomed...they are affectionate best friends...that turn into married Lovers .
> 
> That about describes our relationship anyway.
> 
> Though in the beginning he did need a little patience with me.. I was a little bit of a handful, didn't like my family life, but even then I had a sweet side... but It would fit to say..... I was the "Damsel in distress" and he was my "White Knight". Sometimes there is a good ending to these.
> 
> I don't take advantage of good men, I despise when women do that sort of thing. Watched one of our guy friends go through that, how she was using him Pi$$ed me off.... I'd be the 1st to tell such men >> "loose the B*tch"!


^^^^^
THIS SA,
Is not " pedestalization ."
This is treating a person RESPECTFULLY, giving them the respect they deserve. It is the mature , honest approach to relationships.
"Pedestalization" is treating your partner like gold or a god even though that person abuses you and disrespects you.

The guy friend you described in your last paragraph, put the girl who on a pedestal.In the end , he suffered.


----------



## Thundarr

SimplyAmorous said:


> How about Scenario #4
> 
> Girl treats Boy like he deserves to be Treated- because she recognizes (deep down) she found a good thing, a rare thing- a damn near impossible thing -the way many men are today...(expecting sex on the 3rd date for example).
> 
> Boy continues to treat Girl like Gold...
> 
> Girl grows ever more thankful she found such a rare male , an answer to her prayers in fact (this is true)
> 
> Boy loves to be with Girl...and guess what, Girl loves to be with Boy just as much... the ball & chain is welcomed...they are affectionate best friends...that turn into married Lovers .
> 
> That about describes our relationship anyway.
> 
> Though in the beginning he did need a little patience with me.. I was a little bit of a handful, didn't like my family life, but even then I had a sweet side... but It would fit to say..... I was the "Damsel in distress" and he was my "White Knight". Sometimes there is a good ending to these.
> 
> I don't take advantage of good men, I despise when women do that sort of thing. Watched one of our guy friends go through that, how she was using him Pi$$ed me off.... I'd be the 1st to tell such men >> "loose the B*tch"!


It's a sliding scale between these abstract definitions and we all have character traits falling in more than one direction. Character being the key work here SA. While your hubby is passive, from what I've read, he's stands up when he needs to and has strong character. He doesn't seem like the fearful insecure type litters the beta label.


----------



## Thundarr

Cosmos said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I'm no walk in the park when it comes to relationships, but I'm fortunate that my SO has been strong enough to know how to 'handle' me. The fact that he has stuck by me whilst I've had to do some 'personal adjustments,' without resorting to game playing etc, has earned him my deepest love, trust and absolute respect.


Hope my wife thinks this. Well, she is mostly a walk in the park but the deepest love, trust, respect, thing.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Thundarr said:


> It'While your hubby is passive, from what I've read, he's stands up when he needs to and has strong character. He doesn't seem like the fearful insecure type litters the beta label.


:iagree:

From what I've read in her posts about him, he is a very strong , confident, family oriented man.

I think I remembered reading somewhere, she said that once during their long courtship [ before they were married ] she broke up with him , I think it was because she felt she needed a break to meet other people. What I admired was that he was so confident about her that he simply waited for her to return.
In no time she was back with him.
[ SA please correct me if I'm wrong. ]


----------



## Caribbean Man

Cosmos said:


> :iagree:
> *The fact that he has stuck by me whilst I've had to do some 'personal adjustments,' without resorting to game playing etc, has earned him my deepest love, trust and absolute respect.*


^^^^^^^
THIS right here is what i'm talking about. These things are EARNED in a relationship,not just given out willy nilly.
There must be a _raison d'être_.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Cosmos said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I'm no walk in the park when it comes to relationships,* but I'm fortunate that my SO has been strong enough to know how to 'handle' me*. * The fact that he has stuck by me whilst I've had to do some 'personal adjustments,' without resorting to game playing etc, has earned him my deepest love, trust and absolute respect*.


I like this...This so describes how I feel as well....hard to even put into words......If I had to wade through a bunch of A-holes during that time when I was not so secure, angry about my home life, bi*chy at times.....while they played a bunch of Sh** games with me, dangling some damn carrot...who knows where I would even be today... I may be one of these disgruntled women who has lost faith in men. 

The biggest problem I have is... I tend to think pretty highly of many men -likely because of the example I have known, and lived with all of these years....this forum has shown me how fogged my lenses have really been. 



> *Caribbean Man said*: The guy friend you described in your last paragraph, put the girl who on a pedestal.In the end , he suffered.


 Yes, he didn't want to see the truth... these were Christians ....he had it set in his head God brought them together (ridiculous I know)... met in church, she ENJOYED hanging around him...he is FUN... they did Volleyball together, he threw her Big Birthday parties at his house...they were "close".....but she has ZERO want of him romantically, she KNEW he was nuts about her...but didn't cut it off. 

She used him - to get her house painted, her Mom's house painted, he would haul things for her, then she asked him to get US to haul something for her...I blew a Gasket on that one... For absolute months I'd keep pounding it in his head -she is NOT into him...he hated me at times.. he didn't want to hear it... 

But in the end....he had to face the music. Took him years to get over this woman. We were there for him....the with drawl of a lost friendship & unrequited love. It just shouldn't have been. 

Men really do get the wrong idea, and can't shake it, they want to hold on for dear life until you hit them in the head with a brick. 

She was definitely put on a Pedestal....that was not deserved.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I have said this here before...possibly on this thread, so I apologize if I'm repeating it here...but my husband and I both put each other on pedastals of equal height, *above everyone else but equal with each other*. From our equal height pedastals, we can clearly see and worship each other - - risen above the crowd and displayed for each other to see and cherish. Up on our pedastals, we don't notice anyone but each other. We don't listen to the voices of the masses when it comes to what we want for ourselves and our marriage. We are equals and worship each other equally and there is nothing but joy in this worship when it is reciprocated and born of true love and admiration.

The pedastal is a metaphor, of course, but it is a good one.

Men and women want to be together emotionally and physically, they want to have sex, and they want to worship each other's bodies. 

If you aren't with a partner who feels this way about you, you simply are with the wrong partner. There is one out there who would love to have you standing on a pedastal next to their own while you worship each other above all others.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> From what I've read in her posts about him, he is a very strong , confident, family oriented man.
> 
> I think I remembered reading somewhere, she said that once during their long courtship [ before they were married ] she broke up with him , I think it was because she felt she needed a break to meet other people. What I admired was that he was so confident about her that he simply waited for her to return.
> In no time she was back with him.
> [ SA please correct me if I'm wrong. ]


 Strong to put up with ME, all of us...Yes.... Family Oriented.....HUGELY ~ lives for us...... Confident.....hmmmmm.....how does one express this without taking something away from him. 

Everyone worships this thing called *Confidence*... I am one who believes people can GROW in this - if we give them half a chance. 

He had a genuine Goodness about him, character that was a cut above - in how he treated a girl he loved.... Integrity ~ amazing....he never let me down...faithful, dependable, honest, .... he didn't play games... he wanted me... he waited for me... Confidence... Not so much, he was worried I may want another... our whole dating, there was other guys who liked me... but that was the only time I "left" to explore a little...

I asked him tonight... he said maybe I should just let you all think that.... It sounds better!! Ha ha 

I just had to get some things clear in my head.. I didn't want to marry & wonder what I might have missed ....I was very close to my Grandmother who always told me to "play the field" before I settled down ...or ...I might regret it. 

I went out with a more popular type guy ... He wasn't for me... I missed my Best friend... I knew I'd never find another like him ...the peace came rushing in...HE was my forever , we moved into a little house on a hill & we planned our Big wedding.


----------



## Caribbean Man

SimplyAmorous said:


> ....I was very close to my Grandmother who always told me to "play the field" before I settled down ...or ...I might regret it.
> 
> I went out with a more popular type guy ... He wasn't for me... I missed my Best friend... I knew I'd never find another like him ...the peace came rushing in...HE was my forever , we moved into a little house on a hill & we planned our Big wedding.


SA,
You are one lucky woman, never doubt that!
The advice your grandmother gave you is what I or any other concerned parent would give to their kids before marriage. Yet you did it your way and still beat the odds.
I have told you time and time again that you , your husband and family have what lots of people search their entire lives and never find.
True love and understanding.

Your last post really made me smile!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Caribbean Man said:


> SA,
> You are one lucky woman, never doubt that!
> *The advice your grandmother gave you is what I or any other concerned parent would give to their kids before marriage*. Yet you did it your way and still beat the odds.
> I have told you time and time again that you , your husband and family have what lots of people search their entire lives and never find.
> True love and understanding.
> 
> Your last post really made me smile!










Caribbean Man...I'd say we BOTH had our insecurities when we met ...Teen years can be rough for many.....we helped each other, fulfilled something even & became better people for it. 

My Grandma living next door was my safe Haven....like the Mother I didn't have growing up...so yeah...I took many things she said to







...she had a beautiful marriage, love of family. (My grandfather died when I was 6). 

We'd sit on the Country porch & talk for hours... she'd share her life with me, their







story....she even turned him down a few times... she was a proud working woman in a Pottery back then/ didn't know if she even wanted to marry & have kids (my dad was a change of Life Baby even)....she too was the more boisterous outgoing one, him quieter/calmer....but Mr stable Dependable good Family Man...also hard working. 

When she met my husband early on.... she told me he was like my Grandfather (that comment stayed with me too).... she died months before our Wedding.

And as always, he was right there beside me.


----------

