# Tell me “It’s just sex” without telling me “it’s just sex.”



## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

Online, I’ve seen a lot of comments of sexually disconnected partners raising the issue of how important sex is to them (emotionally) only to be rebuked by a comment along the lines of “dude, it’s just sex, get over it.” 

So as a thought experiment this morning, I was thinking of ways I’ve seen what the title of this post is. I would offer the following as evidence that sex for your partner is just a physical thing and not much else:

1) Doesn’t talk about it before or after or if they ever do, they talk “around it.”
2) Never mentions how emotionally connected they feel before, during or after but they become emotional if you turn them down or they catch you watching porn.
3) Promptly gets dressed and leaves 90 seconds to 2 minutes after they orgasm AND/OR finishing you off (if they finished first) turns into a chore for them
4) Doesn’t seem to get any pleasure watching you enjoying what they are doing to you. 
5) No build up or flirting just ceremoniously getting undressed and starting the routine as you’re both efficient at getting each other off. 
6) Discussions about suggestions, things to try, observations, etc are forbidden.

So is it really “it’s just sex get over it” or a sign your partner has intimacy issues?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

I guess it depends on how important it is to THAT person. My wife has said before "its just sex" when I wanted to make a bigger deal out of it. So to me its more than that and that's where a difference would exist.

Our sex frequency has increased lately but for her its still just a "go though the motions" sort of thing so I think that's why she feels like "its just sex"

And I suppose if someone has a view like hers, they would be inclined to tell others "its just sex". i.e. if one of her friends complained about their sex life with their husband, my wife would probably say something like that.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I don't think my wife used to regard sex as that important, or at least in the later stages of our marriage. She was very engaged at the beginning and had sex every day. Wen her issues started, she was preoccupied with other stuff, so sex declined. But when we had it, she was very involved, enjoyed it, had an orgasm and we held hands afterwards. Always been like that. It was difficult to get her to do it, but at least it was good. So, no, I never had that problem, although she did say to me "you are divorcing me because of sex"...


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

The easy answer to those people is "ok...then you don't mind if I eff your sister, or the woman at the bank with the nice tits, because , as you say, _it's just sex_"??


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Here’s one thing to think about. 

If a withholder says, “it’s just sex” or writes it off as not a big deal or not important then what is the objection to doing it? If it’s no big deal then why not participate?


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

It would appear that the more someone talks about it, worries about it, complains about it, assigns some dumb religious thing to it, or has a dead bedroom then the less and less chance “it’s just sex”

I have a healthy normal sex life with my wife and there are times “it’s just sex” and times where it is emotional bonding. The two are separate but equal and we both know which is which when it’s happening.

Outside of my marriage there is no such thing as “just sex” because that isn’t going to happen.

I have two daughters 20 & 22. I made damn sure not to polute their minds with all that sex double standard guilt sideways talking BS. They both know their parents like and enjoy it. We put them on birth control before they went to college. God forbid they develop some of the screwed up views of sexuality I’ve seen around this place.

It’s just sex …. Sometimes yes, Sometimes no


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

when pressed, my wife resorted to "we are not compatible".... mmm.... so when we were ficking every day we were not compatible either?


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Mr.Married said:


> It would appear that the more someone talks about it, worries about it, complains about it, assigns some dumb religious thing to it, or has a dead bedroom then the less and less chance “it’s just sex”
> 
> I have a healthy normal sex life with my wife and there are times “it’s just sex” and times where it is emotional bonding. The two are separate but equal and we both know which is which when it’s happening.
> 
> ...


I agree. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

this is why you need to talk about sex, have sex, probably actually need to live together for a while BEFORE GETTING MARRIED.

i know some religions frown on that. but it is really the only way you can be sure the two of you are tuned to the right wavelength.

and even then, there is the chance that one in the marriage pair will change their mind as time goes on--as in one of them getting kinkier, or one of them deciding they are really asexual. 
but at least you had that common starting point as a reference to go back to.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

aaarghdub said:


> Online, I’ve seen a lot of comments of sexually disconnected partners raising the issue of how important sex is to them (emotionally) only to be rebuked by a comment along the lines of “dude, it’s just sex, get over it.”
> 
> So as a thought experiment this morning, I was thinking of ways I’ve seen what the title of this post is. I would offer the following as evidence that sex for your partner is just a physical thing and not much else:
> 
> ...


From a woman that checks of few of these, for me, it’s better to disconnect and see it as just sex. Why? Because then, if a man cheats, it’s no big deal…because it was just sex. Now, I’m not the “go through the motions type” I will flirt and build up tension, but it’s more along the lines of how a stripper would…the only difference is, I’m not getting paid and I follow through to a happy ending. Still, the disconnect is a way to protect myself. I’ve been married and faithful to the same man for almost 14 yrs….that hasn’t changed my views on seeing it as just sex. I love him and can be emotionally connected any other time, but not during sex.


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## Bulfrog1987 (Oct 8, 2021)

For me it has to be just sex. There is zero intimacy outside the bedroom or in it. It's an act my husband uses as a release and nothing more. I'm the vessel for that release. It does absolutely nothing for me at this point because I need it to be more than just spasming on top of me or using me for a BJ, just to literally side step me while I'm still on my knees to head to wash off. 

It's sad, but that is my life. My husband is just fine with getting his physical needs met and nothing more. I never dreamed it would be this way. 

So it is just sex for me, and for me it's just surviving the sex. I know this is going to upset some. 

Do what you need, go wash off, it was just sex.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Bulfrog1987 said:


> For me it has to be just sex. There is zero intimacy outside the bedroom or in it. It's an act my husband uses as a release and nothing more. I'm the vessel for that release. It does absolutely nothing for me at this point because I need it to be more than just spasming on top of me or using me for a BJ, just to literally side step me while I'm still on my knees to head to wash off.
> 
> It's sad, but that is my life. My husband is just fine with getting his physical needs met and nothing more. I never dreamed it would be this way.
> 
> ...


The only thing that upsets me about your post is that you tolerate a sex life with someone you can't stand. That's not fair TO YOU, and based on your other comments, YOU are the one choosing to stay. And that's what upsets me.


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## Bulfrog1987 (Oct 8, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> The only thing that upsets me about your post is that you tolerate a sex life with someone you can't stand. That's not fair TO YOU, and based on your other comments, YOU are the one choosing to stay. And that's what upsets me.


And you aren’t wrong.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

MiaLancer69 said:


> From a woman that checks of few of these, for me, it’s better to disconnect and see it as just sex. Why? Because then, if a man cheats, it’s no big deal…because it was just sex. Now, I’m not the “go through the motions type” I will flirt and build up tension, but it’s more along the lines of how a stripper would…the only difference is, I’m not getting paid and I follow through to a happy ending. Still, the disconnect is a way to protect myself. I’ve been married and faithful to the same man for almost 14 yrs….that hasn’t changed my views on seeing it as just sex. I love him and can be emotionally connected any other time, but not during sex.


So having orgasms with him don't make you feel more attached to or admiring of him?

Can't you see that the wall you are using to "protect" yourself is actually causing you the greatest pain?
Do you think at some point you will not want sex at all, since you are only "going through the motions" to make HIM happy? Will you at some point get sick of that and then completely shut him out of your sexual experience?

I'm really asking.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Talker67 said:


> this is why you need to talk about sex, have sex, probably actually need to live together for a while BEFORE GETTING MARRIED.
> 
> i know some religions frown on that. but it is really the only way you can be sure the two of you are tuned to the right wavelength.
> 
> ...


If only this worked, it would be a great idea.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

MiaLancer69 said:


> From a woman that checks of few of these, for me, it’s better to disconnect and see it as just sex. Why? Because then, if a man cheats, it’s no big deal…because it was just sex. Now, I’m not the “go through the motions type” I will flirt and build up tension, but it’s more along the lines of how a stripper would…the only difference is, I’m not getting paid and I follow through to a happy ending. Still, the disconnect is a way to protect myself. I’ve been married and faithful to the same man for almost 14 yrs….that hasn’t changed my views on seeing it as just sex. I love him and can be emotionally connected any other time, but not during sex.


That’s always the way it’s been for you? Nothing happened in your past that caused you to evolve to the “it’s just sex” attitude? Your husband didn’t do anything to warrant your pre-emptive feelings?

I get that you answered the question. Seeking context for the answer.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Some shocking and depressing responses from women here... 😢


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

> If only this worked, it would be a great idea.


Yeah, it didn’t work for me. Might have had a better chance had I had sex and real relationships with other people, before our trial run.

That said, looking back, our trial run did come with warning signs. I didn’t recognize some, and discounted or ignored others.

I’d guess, on average, more experiences before committing can be helpful. But agree it’s not sufficient. It’s possible to be fooled, fool yourself, or just lose due to unforeseeable change.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Talker67 said:


> this is why you need to talk about sex, have sex, probably actually need to live together for a while BEFORE GETTING MARRIED.


We did that... we lived together for 3 years before getting married. It was great but, with life and kids, thing deteriorated and ended up in tears. So, it can be useful, but it's no guarantee your married life will be good. You need to introduce the stressors in the equation.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

PieceOfSky said:


> Yeah, it didn’t work for me. Might have had a better chance had I had sex and real relationships with other people, before our trial run.
> 
> That said, looking back, our trial run did come with warning signs. I didn’t recognize some, and discounted or ignored others.
> 
> I’d guess, on average, more experiences before committing can be helpful. But agree it’s not sufficient. It’s possible to be fooled, fool yourself, or just lose due to unforeseeable change.


Exactly. This might weed out some problem partners, and force you to work on some issues, but it's certainly not any kind of guarantee that you will live happily ever after. People change, relationships change, life changes.

Also, PEOPLE LIE. And just because you aren't married, if you are living together, you may tend to WANT to overlook issues that crop up, because you are still very invested in your partner and relationship, even without marriage! So the temptation to lie to yourself and ignore red flags is very great.

If I had not been living with my EX, I would have seen the red flags more clearly, and I wouldn't have stayed with him. Living together made me MORE unwilling to leave when there were clear signs he wasn't right for me.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

MiaLancer69 said:


> From a woman that checks of few of these, for me, it’s better to disconnect and see it as just sex. Why? Because then, if a man cheats, it’s no big deal…because it was just sex. Now, I’m not the “go through the motions type”* I will flirt and build up tension, but it’s more along the lines of how a stripper would…the only difference is, I’m not getting paid and I follow through to a happy ending. Still, the disconnect is a way to protect myself*. I’ve been married and faithful to the same man for almost 14 yrs….that hasn’t changed my views on seeing it as just sex. I love him and can be emotionally connected any other time, but not during sex.


interesting.
does he know that? or are you just good at acting it?

i guy might sense that you are not sincerely turned on my him in a sexual way, and it gives him a gut feeling that something serious is wrong with the relationship.

can't you just let go and really enjoy it once in a while, like when you have been drinking or smoking pot?


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

LisaDiane said:


> Exactly. This might weed out some problem partners, and force you to work on some issues, but it's certainly not any kind of guarantee that you will live happily ever after. People change, relationships change, life changes.
> 
> Also, PEOPLE LIE.


the deal is, if you lived with them, lets say for 6 months, then you probably got to see the real person.

you can then not come back years later and say "i did not know that he/she was like X", because you should have figured it out before getting hitched.

a person can lie, but for the FULL 6 months? you would see thru it.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Talker67 said:


> the deal is, if you lived with them, lets say for 6 months, then you probably got to see the real person.
> 
> you can then not come back years later and say "i did not know that he/she was like X", because you should have figured it out before getting hitched.
> 
> a person can lie, but for the FULL 6 months? you would see thru it.


Maybe...but if you are told that the things you are seeing as the real person are not real, then you can't be sure. And it's hard to want to move back out and start over for something you aren't sure of.

Living together does work for some issues and incompatibilities, but the emotional connection required to even want to live together can make breaking things off difficult, once those red flags start flying!

And I will also say that my EX changed significantly years AFTER we got married. We had many happy years together, with him working out our sexual issues and other things....and then everything changed.

In those cases, NOTHING will warn you of potential future unhappiness.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> Maybe...but if you are told that the things you are seeing as the real person are not real, then you can't be sure. And it's hard to want to move back out and start over for something you aren't sure of.
> 
> Living together does work for some issues and incompatibilities, but the emotional connection required to even want to live together can make breaking things off difficult, once those red flags start flying!
> 
> ...


Best course of action would be not to get yourself into a LTR and just enjoy life


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> Maybe...but if you are told that the things you are seeing as the real person are not real, then you can't be sure. And it's hard to want to move back out and start over for something you aren't sure of.
> 
> Living together does work for some issues and incompatibilities, but the emotional connection required to even want to live together can make breaking things off difficult, once those red flags start flying!
> 
> ...


Nope. People choose who they are going to be every day and need to keep choosing their spouse and family if they want to succeed.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Numb26 said:


> Best course of action would be not to get yourself into a LTR and just enjoy life


True...except that it's only in a LTR that I feel attached and connected enough to truly open up and be myself. And that's what I need to be happy and satisfied, being loved as my real self.

Plus, I REFUSE to live in fear!! Big girl pants pulled up, marching FORWARD...not staying in the same place!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> True...except that it's only in a LTR that I feel attached and connected enough to truly open up and be myself. And that's what I need to be happy and satisfied, being loved as my real self.
> 
> Plus, I REFUSE to live in fear!! Big girl pants pulled up, marching FORWARD...not staying in the same place!


I can't see myself ever having sex again without the security of commitment. My faith doesn't allow for sex outside of marriage anyway so it suits me.

I had a wild youth but it was from a damaged perspective and I actually harmed myself with casual relationships.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I can't see myself ever having sex again without the security of commitment.


I can...


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

Talker67 said:


> interesting.
> does he know that? or are you just good at acting it?
> 
> i guy might sense that you are not sincerely turned on my him in a sexual way, and it gives him a gut feeling that something serious is wrong with the relationship.
> ...


Oh, I’m not saying I don’t find him attractive nor that we don’t/can’t have fun. What I’m saying is that I can find a man attractive and be turned on by him and still separate my emotions. Many tend to believe that women fall in love through the act of making love…that’s simply not true for all women. I love my husband, but I strictly see sex as just sex. I don’t see it as making love.
Though, yes, I would consider myself a good actress in the bedroom. Just as a stripper or prostitute would make a man feel, I have a leg up on that, because I’m not requiring anything for my services.
Even in my drunkest state, I tend to disconnect all the more and would likely do things (inviting a third party) that I would regret later. So, it doesn’t necessarily help me relax, just hold tighter to the idea that “if sex is just sex and it means nothing l, then I can’t get hurt.”
I might add, I was sexually abused by multiple people throughout my childhood, so that could play a role in why I can and do disconnect.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

MiaLancer69 said:


> I might add, I was sexually abused by multiple people throughout my childhood, so that could play a role in why I can and do disconnect.


This has alot to do with it. And I'm VERY horrified for you, and sorry that happened to you!


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

Casual Observer said:


> That’s always the way it’s been for you? Nothing happened in your past that caused you to evolve to the “it’s just sex” attitude? Your husband didn’t do anything to warrant your pre-emptive feelings?
> 
> I get that you answered the question. Seeking context for the answer.


It’s wasn’t always this way with him. But, yes, I’ve always had this ability. I was sexually abused by multiple people throughout my childhood. Then, my husband began showing signs that he was willing to cheat (but says he never did…think extreme flirting on the verge of groping). His parents have a marriage agreement to stay married just because they vowed to…because of cheating. My parents were both cheaters and divorced. I’ve come to realize it’s inevitable…if sex becomes “making love” then there’s room for hurt. It’s best for me to love my partner in all other areas and see sex as a transaction/agreement. That doesn’t mean sex can’t be good (strippers and prostitutes can make a man feel like he’s a king, yet have zero emotions attached).


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Talker67 said:


> the deal is, if you lived with them, lets say for 6 months, then you probably got to see the real person.
> 
> you can then not come back years later and say "i did not know that he/she was like X", because you should have figured it out before getting hitched.
> 
> a person can lie, but for the FULL 6 months? you would see thru it.


There is no guarantee any lie is detectable, let alone in six months. I imagine there are all sorts of affairs that go on for years, for instance.

There is no guarantee due diligence uncovers all relevant facts.

I don’t expect anyone to make the things I missed or glossed over all better somehow. The reason I would mention them is as a warning to others and a reminder to myself: pay attention, take action, find a level headed smart experienced person to provide a reality check.

Id agree a trial live-in arrangement can be valuable. But there are no guarantees. And there are pitfalls, like as @LisaDiane mentioned with feeling very invested.

And to someone new to sex or contemplating leaving, a phrase I think @LisaDiane might have coined in another thread is worth keeping in mind: orgasm goggles.

All that’s to say, it’s not easy, there are no guarantees, stay alert, and take action even when it hurts.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> I can't see myself ever having sex again without the security of commitment. My faith doesn't allow for sex outside of marriage anyway so it suits me.
> 
> I had a wild youth but it was from a damaged perspective and I actually harmed myself with casual relationships.


I believe I am happier now being single then I ever was married so I will have fun enough for both of us. 😃


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> True...except that it's only in a LTR that I feel attached and connected enough to truly open up and be myself. And that's what I need to be happy and satisfied, being loved as my real self.
> 
> Plus, I REFUSE to live in fear!! Big girl pants pulled up, marching FORWARD...not staying in the same place!


It's never good to live in fear! I'm proud of you for putting on your big girl pants. 👍


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Numb26 said:


> I believe I am happier now being single then I ever was married so I will have fun enough for both of us. 😃


Someone has to keep those wild women at bay! You have my thanks!😉


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> Someone has to keep those wild women at bay! You have my thanks!😉


I should have told you what happened a few nights ago! LOL


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Oh, I’m not saying I don’t find him attractive nor that we don’t/can’t have fun. What I’m saying is that I can find a man attractive and be turned on by him and still separate my emotions. Many tend to believe that women fall in love through the act of making love…that’s simply not true for all women. I love my husband, but I strictly see sex as just sex. I don’t see it as making love.
> Though, yes, I would consider myself a good actress in the bedroom. Just as a stripper or prostitute would make a man feel, I have a leg up on that, because I’m not requiring anything for my services.
> Even in my drunkest state, I tend to disconnect all the more and would likely do things (inviting a third party) that I would regret later. So, it doesn’t necessarily help me relax, just hold tighter to the idea that “if sex is just sex and it means nothing l, then I can’t get hurt.”
> I might add, I was sexually abused by multiple people throughout my childhood, so that could play a role in why I can and do disconnect.


i guess i understand that. it is just a mental discipline you employ to never let yourself become too open or vulnerable.

i was wondering about possible sexual abuse but did not want to pry.
the general thinking is that childhood sexual abuse continues to bother a person long into adulthood, and unless they seek professional counseling for it, its effects might never die down. There are counselors who speicalize in this sort of problem.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

PieceOfSky said:


> There is no guarantee any lie is detectable, let alone in six months. I imagine there are all sorts of affairs that go on for years, for instance.
> 
> There is no guarantee due diligence uncovers all relevant facts.
> 
> ...


YES...the terrible affliction of orgasm goggles... 

I couldn't see anything bad about him when we had sex...that's a handicap for sure!!


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> Maybe...but if you are told that the things you are seeing as the real person are not real, theyou can't be sure. And it's hard to want to move back out and start over for something you aren't sure of.
> 
> Living together does work for some issues and incompatibilities, but the emotional connection required to even want to live together can make breaking things off difficult, once those red flags start flying!
> 
> ...


You WANT to believe your partner, and the longer you live together, the greater the investment, the more you feel stupid for staying. All of that works AGAINST you getting out, because you don't want to believe you were wrong.

I think the warning signs are there from the beginning. We let the fog of attraction cloud our judgment initially, but as we realize things are getting serious, we want our partner to see the best in us, and, for some of us, we believe the best in us is our loyalty, our faithfulness, our trust. A perfect setup for the expert gas-lighter. It may not even be deliberate, the gas-lighting lying partner may not even be aware of the advantage they have over the partner who's trusting and loyal. It's just that you were one of the ducks in the shooting range that had clipped wings, an easier target.

Again, and again, and again. The most important thing to figure out is, what secret does your spouse have that they most want to keep from you, because they're concerned it would send you away if you knew. That secret is the foundation for disaster, because it encourages your partner to double-down on keeping it at bay, actively decieving you at times. A history of sexual abuse (childhood or otherwise) would be one of those secrets. Or if there was something in past relationships that gave you grief, something that repeated. Your partner deserves to know that you'll be looking for those same things going forward. 

The past is not the past. We weren't wired to experience sexuality without it affecting us. How it affects us can be wildly different so generalizations are dangerous, but to believe that we come to a new relationship and present ourselves as a blank slate is nuts. If you or they feel that the past is none of their business, make that clear early on, before any real investment in the relationship has been made, so each of your are comfortable with that. 

Is this a threadjack? I don't think so. I think it helps to explain the importance of understanding our partner's motivations, their drives, which affects the durability of the relationship.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

MiaLancer69 said:


> It’s wasn’t always this way with him. But, yes, I’ve always had this ability. I was sexually abused by multiple people throughout my childhood. Then, my husband began showing signs that he was willing to cheat (but says he never did…think extreme flirting on the verge of groping). His parents have a marriage agreement to stay married just because they vowed to…because of cheating. My parents were both cheaters and divorced. I’ve come to realize it’s inevitable…if sex becomes “making love” then there’s room for hurt. It’s best for me to love my partner in all other areas and see sex as a transaction/agreement. That doesn’t mean sex can’t be good (strippers and prostitutes can make a man feel like he’s a king, yet have zero emotions attached).


I am so sorry to read this. You are living the perfect storm.


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## theloveofmylife (Jan 5, 2021)

Bulfrog1987 said:


> need it to be more than just spasming on top of me or using me for a BJ, just to literally side step me while I'm still on my knees to head to wash off.


Why do you allow this?


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## Bulfrog1987 (Oct 8, 2021)

theloveofmylife said:


> Why do you allow this?


I really haven’t figured that part out yet. I think a deep part of me keeps hoping the manner in which he just constantly takes will stop. 

he’s joined a mens ministry that meets weekly and I keep Thinking he’ll bring something back from it but he never does. Maybe he’s trying to drive me out? That’s crossed my mind.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

hamadryad said:


> The easy answer to those people is "ok...then you don't mind if I eff your sister, or the woman at the bank with the nice tits, because , as you say, _it's just sex_"??


There is no faster way to reduce the thermostat to absolute zero than this. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Bulfrog1987 said:


> For me it has to be just sex. There is zero intimacy outside the bedroom or in it. It's an act my husband uses as a release and nothing more. I'm the vessel for that release. It does absolutely nothing for me at this point because I need it to be more than just spasming on top of me or using me for a BJ, just to literally side step me while I'm still on my knees to head to wash off.
> 
> It's sad, but that is my life. My husband is just fine with getting his physical needs met and nothing more. I never dreamed it would be this way.
> 
> ...


This is heartbreaking. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

hamadryad said:


> The easy answer to those people is "ok...then you don't mind if I eff your sister, or the woman at the bank with the nice tits, because , as you say, _it's just sex_"??


😅 nope cause I’m at that age where his daddy, his brother, his uncle, and the guy fixing my car are all great prospects, too. Nah, but seriously, men pay for strippers and prostitutes to pretend…why y’all worried when your woman does? I’m genuinely curious. She’s not asking for money. She’s still showing love outside of the bedroom(should be)…so if she has to pretend a little, what’s the fuss? No different than men watching porn before sex because they need different stimulation…we just hide it better because…we’ll, we don’t have anything that needs to rise lol.
I find it odd that so many men want a connection during sex, yet also say other sexual activities mean nothing (porn, strip clubs, undressing women with your eyes)…if you need a connection then surely you’re wanting one with these women too…which means those activities mean a lot. Just my thoughts though.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MiaLancer69 said:


> It’s wasn’t always this way with him. But, yes, I’ve always had this ability. I was sexually abused by multiple people throughout my childhood. Then, my husband began showing signs that he was willing to cheat (but says he never did…think extreme flirting on the verge of groping). His parents have a marriage agreement to stay married just because they vowed to…because of cheating. My parents were both cheaters and divorced. I’ve come to realize it’s inevitable…if sex becomes “making love” then there’s room for hurt. It’s best for me to love my partner in all other areas and see sex as a transaction/agreement. That doesn’t mean sex can’t be good (strippers and prostitutes can make a man feel like he’s a king, yet have zero emotions attached).


I'm not being flippant or dismissive when I say this, as your story is clearly tragic...but you understand that you are setting yourself up for a self fulfilling prophecy, don't you?

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MiaLancer69 said:


> nope cause I’m at that age where his daddy, his brother, his uncle, and the guy fixing my car are all great prospects, too. Nah, but seriously, men pay for strippers and prostitutes to pretend…why y’all worried when your woman does? I’m genuinely curious. She’s not asking for money. She’s still showing love outside of the bedroom(should be)…so if she has to pretend a little, what’s the fuss? No different than men watching porn before sex because they need different stimulation…we just hide it better because…we’ll, we don’t have anything that needs to rise lol.
> I find it odd that so many men want a connection during sex, yet also say other sexual activities mean nothing (porn, strip clubs, undressing women with your eyes)…if you need a connection then surely you’re wanting one with these women too…which means those activities mean a lot. Just my thoughts though.


Your assumption about connection in all encounters is incorrect. 

Sometimes sex is about fun.

Sometimes it is about connection.

Sometimes it is about need. 

Sometimes it is pure lust. 

Occasionally, it is about celebration.

I can tell you definitively that without sex with my wife, my connection with her suffers.

I married her to be my friend and my lover, and I want her to give all of herself to me...even the bad stuff.

There is no real connection without emotional intimacy. This is why you are making a self fulfilling prophecy. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

MiaLancer69 said:


> 😅 nope cause I’m at that age where his daddy, his brother, his uncle, and the guy fixing my car are all great prospects, too. Nah, but seriously, men pay for strippers and prostitutes to pretend…why y’all worried when your woman does? I’m genuinely curious. She’s not asking for money. She’s still showing love outside of the bedroom(should be)…so if she has to pretend a little, what’s the fuss? No different than men watching porn before sex because they need different stimulation…we just hide it better because…we’ll, we don’t have anything that needs to rise lol.
> I find it odd that so many men want a connection during sex, yet also say other sexual activities mean nothing (porn, strip clubs, undressing women with your eyes)…if you need a connection then surely you’re wanting one with these women too…which means those activities mean a lot. Just my thoughts though.


Does your husband know how you feel?


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> So having orgasms with him don't make you feel more attached to or admiring of him?
> 
> Can't you see that the wall you are using to "protect" yourself is actually causing you the greatest pain?
> Do you think at some point you will not want sex at all, since you are only "going through the motions" to make HIM happy? Will you at some point get sick of that and then completely shut him out of your sexual experience?
> ...


The 1960's free love thing isn't so free for women after all.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

farsidejunky said:


> Your assumption about connection in all encounters is incorrect.
> 
> Sometimes sex is about fun.
> 
> ...


Actually, our connection in every other way is great. We still have sex 4-5 times a week..if not more. However, the idea of “making love” seems a bit useless when men seem to crave the disconnected sexual experience most. My husband and I are very open and honest in our relationship. But something’s are best left unsaid, such as him wishing I looked more like a super model or me pretending there’s a connection during sex. Why is it only for men to decide what type of sex is important and at what moment? Perhaps, all should remember women also have needs and they need to be themselves regardless of someone else’s desire…


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

Casual Observer said:


> Does your husband know how you feel?


Nope. I find it best to not share that. Do you tell your SO that you’d rather they look like the super model/porn star that you fantasize about? Some things are best kept to ourselves.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Bulfrog1987 said:


> I really haven’t figured that part out yet. I think a deep part of me keeps hoping the manner in which he just constantly takes will stop.
> 
> he’s joined a mens ministry that meets weekly and I keep Thinking he’ll bring something back from it but he never does. Maybe he’s trying to drive me out? That’s crossed my mind.


He is what he is and you need to face it. You are who you are and you should start being true to yourself.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Actually, our connection in every other way is great. We still have sex 4-5 times a week..if not more. However, the idea of “making love” seems a bit useless when men seem to crave the disconnected sexual experience most. My husband and I are very open and honest in our relationship. But something’s are best left unsaid, such as him wishing I looked more like a super model or me pretending there’s a connection during sex. Why is it only for men to decide what type of sex is important and at what moment? Perhaps, all should remember women also have needs and they need to be themselves regardless of someone else’s desire…


The latter part of your post is so completely foreign to me. I can't fathom not valuing my wife's wants and needs in sexual encounters. 

I'm sorry you feel unheard. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Bulfrog1987 said:


> I really haven’t figured that part out yet. I think a deep part of me keeps hoping the manner in which he just constantly takes will stop.
> 
> he’s joined a mens ministry that meets weekly and I keep Thinking he’ll bring something back from it but he never does. Maybe he’s trying to drive me out? That’s crossed my mind.


Men compartentallize. I wouldn't read too much into that.
Unless he's sworn to secrecy, he probably just doesn't think you're interested in man stuff.
It's also a reality that our culture doesn't train men for marriage.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

LisaDiane said:


> So having orgasms with him don't make you feel more attached to or admiring of him?
> 
> Can't you see that the wall you are using to "protect" yourself is actually causing you the greatest pain?
> Do you think at some point you will not want sex at all, since you are only "going through the motions" to make HIM happy? Will you at some point get sick of that and then completely shut him out of your sexual experience?
> ...


 No, because I 100% believe love is more than just sex. Whereas sex can be just sex, without love. Think about it, what if something occurred that made it so you or your SO couldn’t have sex for a long time or ever again…would you then fall out of love or lose your connection? I won’t because I don’t base our connection on sex. I base it on everything else. I base it on how openly we communicate, on the hobbies we enjoy, on our past, our present, our future, but most importantly on who we are as individuals and a couple.
I’ve been this way for my entire life, which makes it far easier for me to continue this way. It’s why, while most women are too tired after giving birth to even muster a bj, I can with enthusiasm give him the most mind blowing bj (his words) the next day…without him asking. Because I can be spontaneous and someone else during those moments…which makes the sex great and keeps me from getting hurt.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

farsidejunky said:


> The latter part of your post is so completely foreign to me. I can't fathom not valuing my wife's wants and needs in sexual encounters.
> 
> I'm sorry you feel unheard.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


i think you mistook what I said. My husband very much values my wants and needs and I his. Does he need to know that I disconnect during sex? What good will that do, when our sex life is great and our emotional connection is spot on outside of those times? My point was, from the comments, men are stating that women need to make love and have more than “just sex” yet they don’t seem to understand that sometimes having just sex is exactly what a woman needs. It’s so she can let go of who she is, she can disconnect, and she can be carefree. Making love, many times, seems like the chore.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MiaLancer69 said:


> i think you mistook what I said. My husband very much values my wants and needs and I his. Does he need to know that I disconnect during sex? What good will that do, when our sex life is great and our emotional connection is spot on outside of those times? My point was, from the comments, men are stating that women need to make love and have more than “just sex” yet they don’t seem to understand that sometimes having just sex is exactly what a woman needs. It’s so she can let go of who she is, she can disconnect, and she can be carefree. Making love, many times, seems like the chore.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but that doesn't sound so different than the post I wrote about different types of encounters. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> i think you mistook what I said. My husband very much values my wants and needs and I his. Does he need to know that I disconnect during sex? What good will that do, when our sex life is great and our emotional connection is spot on outside of those times? My point was, from the comments, men are stating that women need to make love and have more than “just sex” yet they don’t seem to understand that sometimes having just sex is exactly what a woman needs. It’s so she can let go of who she is, she can disconnect, and she can be carefree. Making love, many times, seems like the chore.


Your husband can't help you with your internal reactions, so you're right to not tell him. All you can do is work on it yourself.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

[/QUOTE]


farsidejunky said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but that doesn't sound so different than the post I wrote about different types of encounters.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


that’s where it differs. Men want different encounters, with different women. However, they want their SO to be 100% connected to them during sex. Why should she? Why should a woman need to remain connected to an act, that is told means nothing? In what way does that benefit us women? It doesn’t. So, when sex is just sex…nothing more, then all sexual activity is just that…just sex. Logically, it makes more sense than saying, “hun, I was groping a stripper tonight…it meant nothing…and now I need you to make love to me to rebuild our connection.”


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

jonty30 said:


> Your husband can't help you with your internal reactions, so you're right to not tell him. All you can do is work on it yourself.


I’m actually quite happy with the way this is. It keeps me safe and it keeps our marriage a happy. I don’t think anyone should ever be given the opportunity to destroy another person, which for many, infidelity does. When disconnected from sex, I can see it as animal instincts rather than the emotional connection many think is created/needed. Does that mean I don’t feel anything about certain actions? No. I still have moments of jealousy or moments of anger…but I let them pass and move on. I remind myself, “it’s just sex. It means nothing” or I choose to make a lesson out of it. That way, it won’t be repeated again.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> that’s where it differs. Men want different encounters, with different women. However, they want their SO to be 100% connected to them during sex. Why should she? Why should a woman need to remain connected to an act, that is told means nothing? In what way does that benefit us women? It doesn’t. So, when sex is just sex…nothing more, then all sexual activity is just that…just sex. Logically, it makes more sense than saying, “hun, I was groping a stripper tonight…it meant nothing…and now I need you to make love to me to rebuild our connection.”


There is so much truth in this. I was trying to figure out your headspace and now I get it. It makes sense. And it protects us from that whole “it’s different because I luuurve you” lie.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

TexasMom1216 said:


> There is so much truth in this. I was trying to figure out your headspace and now I get it. It makes sense. And it protects us from that whole “it’s different because I luuurve you” lie.


I’m so glad someone else understands. It really is the safest way for us to remain in a relationship and be happy. The only other option would be to be extremely naïve/gullible…unfortunately, I’m too in tune for that lol.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

Men, have we not all been told/taught “Men are visual and Women are emotional.” Please, do not request that your SO be emotionally connected during an act that you can so easily disconnect from and do with someone else. Do not ask your SO to do something that you yourself will not do…remain emotionally connected to sex. We can’t have our cake and eat it too. We either lump all sexual activities as just sex or we lump them all as emotional connection. So, if you want your SO to be ok with you doing the other things you’re doing…best believe it’s better for her mental state to disconnect during sex with you. If you’re willing to give those things up and have a real emotional connection during sex with her, then do that. Just don’t expect both. That’s so selfish. Imagine her going and banging some guy then coming home to you asking you to make love to her because she doesn’t feel a connection with you anymore. That’s exactly what it’s like when sex is more than just sex.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Actually, our connection in every other way is great. We still have sex 4-5 times a week..if not more. However, the idea of “making love” seems a bit useless when men seem to crave the disconnected sexual experience most. My husband and I are very open and honest in our relationship. But something’s are best left unsaid, such as him wishing I looked more like a super model or me pretending there’s a connection during sex. Why is it only for men to decide what type of sex is important and at what moment? Perhaps, all should remember women also have needs and they need to be themselves regardless of someone else’s desire…


It's important to only paint your husband with the brush of your experience.

I and other men don't fit that particular mold.

I had tons of "disconnected" sex before meeting my wife and discovering something much better. I would never go back.😉


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Men, have we not all been told/taught “Men are visual and Women are emotional.” Please, do not request that your SO be emotionally connected during an act that you can so easily disconnect from and do with someone else. Do not ask your SO to do something that you yourself will not do…remain emotionally connected to sex. We can’t have our cake and eat it too. We either lump all sexual activities as just sex or we lump them all as emotional connection. So, if you want your SO to be ok with you doing the other things you’re doing…best believe it’s better for her mental state to disconnect during sex with you. If you’re willing to give those things up and have a real emotional connection during sex with her, then do that. Just don’t expect both. That’s so selfish. Imagine her going and banging some guy then coming home to you asking you to make love to her because she doesn’t feel a connection with you anymore. That’s exactly what it’s like when sex is more than just sex.



Just hold on there sister....lol...

IME, most guys resort to porn and infidelity, etc, because their wives either pulled some bait and switch crap on them, or decided once they had a ring on that they no longer cared about their appearance, what their husband needed or wanted, etc...The way you are categorizing it, it's as if a woman shouldn't be all that connected because all guys aren't anyway....Bull crap....

I can assure you that most men really are pretty simple when it comes to this stuff...They want a woman that desires them, looks good and takes cares of herself, and actually wants them, that isn't making excuses to get out of sex but rather finds reasons not to...Find a woman like that and add some intangibles and that guy will move mountains for her....with a plastic spoon..

The vibe I am getting from you, is that you are a garden variety 'cold fish"., I may be wrong, and apologies in advance if I am misread it's just an anonymous forum, but that's the feeling I am getting from your posts, when it comes to this topic...And you know what? That's fine!...But then you aren't going to endear many men with the attitude that it's "just sex"...All that means is you can take it or leave it, _or worse_....No guy wants a woman like that....OK...maybe a few desperate dopes, but anyone worth a crap won't want it....


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

MiaLancer69 said:


> i think you mistook what I said. My husband very much values my wants and needs and I his. Does he need to know that I disconnect during sex? What good will that do, when our sex life is great and our emotional connection is spot on outside of those times? My point was, from the comments, men are stating that women need to make love and have more than “just sex” yet they don’t seem to understand that sometimes having just sex is exactly what a woman needs. It’s so she can let go of who she is, she can disconnect, and she can be carefree. Making love, many times, seems like the chore.


Hmm.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

MiaLancer69 said:


> that’s where it differs. Men want different encounters, with different women. However, they want their SO to be 100% connected to them during sex. Why should she? Why should a woman need to remain connected to an act, that is told means nothing? In what way does that benefit us women? It doesn’t. So, when sex is just sex…nothing more, then all sexual activity is just that…just sex. Logically, it makes more sense than saying, “hun, I was groping a stripper tonight…it meant nothing…and now I need you to make love to me to rebuild our connection.”


Men are not all alike.

Many have never groped a stripper. I’d guess most do not when married.

I’d say, if sex is meaningless for you, and you prefer to keep it that way, good for you. I hope it continues to work out for you, and I don’t begrudge what you get from keeping it that way (if there is even a choice).

I used to feel love from having sex with my wife. Even though she was clear very early in our sex life that it was just physical, and not connection enhancing for her. (She was my first and only partner, and I thought maybe my loving feelings were just naive.). Then, years later, I felt extremely unloved, by her withholding, months and years at a time. I’m not sure I could ever feel loved by having sex with her again. I like to think, with the right person in the right circumstances (after this marriage), sex could be something that would make her (whomever that is) and me feel connected and loved. I could also imagine it being a lighthearted pleasurable experience without feelings of love. That is, I agree with those who say it can involve feelings of love, but it doesn’t have to and might not.

If you think it is impossible for a man to be truthful when he reports feeling more connected with sex, or for a woman reporting the same, then you are invalidating. It doesn’t make logical sense that one can know better what another’s experience is. Sure, people lie to get sex from others. But, I don’t think that is happening in this thread. IME, projection like that occurs because I’m trying to justify a belief to myself that is self-serving but not based in facts I have at hand. YMMV.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Nope. I find it best to not share that. Do you tell your SO that you’d rather they look like the super model/porn star that you fantasize about? Some things are best kept to ourselves.


I don’t tell her that because I don’t think that. Trust me, there’s not much in the way of a dark side my wife isn’t aware of. She knows the serious issues, the specifics, how I think. Transparency and vulnerability are key for me. I’m not denying my wife agency.

Your husband deserves to know what’s poisoning intimacy in your marriage.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Men, have we not all been told/taught “Men are visual and Women are emotional.” Please, do not request that your SO be emotionally connected during an act that you can so easily disconnect from and do with someone else. Do not ask your SO to do something that you yourself will not do…remain emotionally connected to sex. We can’t have our cake and eat it too. We either lump all sexual activities as just sex or we lump them all as emotional connection. So, if you want your SO to be ok with you doing the other things you’re doing…best believe it’s better for her mental state to disconnect during sex with you. If you’re willing to give those things up and have a real emotional connection during sex with her, then do that. Just don’t expect both. That’s so selfish. Imagine her going and banging some guy then coming home to you asking you to make love to her because she doesn’t feel a connection with you anymore. That’s exactly what it’s like when sex is more than just sex.


This is extremely dysfunctional. What makes you believe other couples would even tolerate infidelity?

I'm not poking at you. You may live in a situation where most relationships are like yours.

I personally don't even go to strip clubs much less grope other women and I don't have time for any woman that isn't totally committed to me so the dynamic that exists for you is totally absent in my marriage.

Do you get that your situation is yours and not close to universal?


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I just think everybody is kind of different. I had emotional sex with a guy I was in love with until I found out he was dating someone else and then that just turned the love connection during sex off like a spigot. After that it was just sad disconnected sex for me. I remember the first time we slept together after I found that out and I remember thinking it would never be the same again. 

Then ironically sometime later, he commented about that night that he thought it was the best sex we had together. And I told him that it wasn't for me because I had lost the feeling. I think maybe he was just cutting loose that night because he had come through me finding out he was dating someone else and that I still slept with him. He probably thought that was just great.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I just think everybody is kind of different. I had emotional sex with a guy I was in love with until I found out he was dating someone else and then that just turned the love connection during sex off like a spigot. After that it was just sad disconnected sex for me. I remember the first time we slept together after I found that out and I remember thinking it would never be the same again.
> 
> Then ironically sometime later, he commented about that night that he thought it was the best sex we had together. And I told him that it wasn't for me because I had lost the feeling. I think maybe he was just cutting loose that night because he had come through me finding out he was dating someone else and that I still slept with him. He probably thought that was just great.


Ugh....


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> Ugh....


Ah, it's just life. We weren't committed. He wasn't cheating.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Ah, it's just life. We weren't committed. He wasn't cheating.


It was my reaction to your situation. Ugh....


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

hamadryad said:


> Just hold on there sister....lol...
> 
> IME, most guys resort to porn and infidelity, etc, because their wives either pulled some bait and switch crap on them, or decided once they had a ring on that they no longer cared about their appearance, what their husband needed or wanted, etc...The way you are categorizing it, it's as if a woman shouldn't be all that connected because all guys aren't anyway....Bull crap....
> 
> ...


Funny enough, that’s not at all how it usually is. Most men go into a marriage with a porn issue, ask any man…they didn’t just randomly start watching it after marriage.


hamadryad said:


> Just hold on there sister....lol...
> 
> IME, most guys resort to porn and infidelity, etc, because their wives either pulled some bait and switch crap on them, or decided once they had a ring on that they no longer cared about their appearance, what their husband needed or wanted, etc...The way you are categorizing it, it's as if a woman shouldn't be all that connected because all guys aren't anyway....Bull crap....
> 
> ...


actually, I am quite a positive, upbeat, and bubbly person, lol. I’m not one that leans toward negativity. I try to see the good in all situations, some situations don’t have any good to see, though. Still, I’m a beautiful woman who is supportive, attentive, driven, and loyal. I certainly don’t see myself as someone unworthy or someone to be disregarded. 

I have to say, your thoughts that porn is usually started because of a lack of something is not at all what most experts would say, nor what most women experience. Men become aware of porn in childhood, far before meeting/marrying their SO. To say that a lack of anything drove a man to those things shows a lack of accountability. If a man is emotionally disconnected from a woman, should she then seek it elsewhere?

Honestly, this entire thread has me baffled and confused. I’m not sure how men can say one thing, yet be so contradictory. I didn’t say a woman should never be connected. A connection is required in all relationships if they are going to last. I said, “disconnecting during sex.” I also stated that women should only do this if their SO finds it acceptable to say, porn, strip clubs, etc..mean nothing. They are all sexual activities. If a man can disconnect from his SO and the other women involved during these acts, it’s most certainly wrong to expect a woman to be 100% connected to that man during sex. I said if a man doesn’t do these things, then a woman can and should have that connection with him.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

ConanHub said:


> This is extremely dysfunctional. What makes you believe other couples would even tolerate infidelity?
> 
> I'm not poking at you. You may live in a situation where most relationships are like yours.
> 
> ...


Hopefully I can explain it better this way,

I understand that completely and in that case, my comment was not directed at you specifically. If a man doesn’t do those things, then I believe a woman should build that connection during sex. However, I don’t believe a woman should be seeking a connection via sex if a man is doing those things then saying they mean nothing. Any activity that is sexual in nature will be one or the other…meaningful or meaningless. As a woman, emotions are attached to everything, thus if those activities are meaningless then any sex would also be…because they all lump together.

again this isn’t directed at you, as I don’t know you. It’s directed toward the men that want their cake and eat it too.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

PieceOfSky said:


> Men are not all alike.
> 
> Many have never groped a stripper. I’d guess most do not when married.
> 
> ...


When I say “men” I’m not speaking on every single man, as they are all individuals. I’m speaking on the ones that I’ve described throughout all of my comments.

As for a woman withholding, that’s not something I consider as “just sex” stance. That’s an emotional disconnect period. Those are very different things. A woman can disconnect emotionally from sex and still have/give amazing sex. However, a woman that emotionally disconnects period…that’s an issue far beyond sex. There’s typically a lack of communication, respect, sprinkle on some depression, and likely other things. That’s far from what I’m speaking on when I say disconnecting during sex.
I’m not certain what you feel like I’m projecting? I’m merely stating what would be beneficial to a woman in 2 different scenarios.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

Casual Observer said:


> I don’t tell her that because I don’t think that. Trust me, there’s not much in the way of a dark side my wife isn’t aware of. She knows the serious issues, the specifics, how I think. Transparency and vulnerability are key for me. I’m not denying my wife agency.
> 
> Your husband deserves to know what’s poisoning intimacy in your marriage.


See, I find it quite interesting that you continue to act as if my relationship lacks intimacy. What is intimacy to you? For me, it’s knowing someone on a deeper level. It’s being able to talk to him and feel heard. It’s being his cheerleader, his best friend, his biggest supporter. It’s knowing that no matter what, we’re going to be ok. Intimacy is not just sex. If you feel that it is, then I feel sad for you. I’d hate to wake up one day in our 80’s and think, “gosh, I hate that we no longer have a connection because we don’t have sex.” How sad that would be. Thankfully, what we have far exceeds sexual connections. Thankfully so, and it does for many others, too. Consider anyone in the military, truck drivers, or any job that requires spouses to be apart for long periods of time. They maintain a connection not because of sexual connection but because they have a connection even without sex being involved.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Funny enough, that’s not at all how it usually is. Most men go into a marriage with a porn issue, ask any man…they didn’t just randomly start watching it after marriage.
> 
> actually, I am quite a positive, upbeat, and bubbly person, lol. I’m not one that leans toward negativity. I try to see the good in all situations, some situations don’t have any good to see, though. Still, I’m a beautiful woman who is supportive, attentive, driven, and loyal. I certainly don’t see myself as someone unworthy or someone to be disregarded.
> 
> ...


Because much like women, we are diverse, with varied tastes and preferences. 

Don't fall into the trap of thinking most men are entirely (or even mostly) alike. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

MiaLancer69 said:


> From a woman that checks of few of these, for me, it’s better to disconnect and see it as just sex. Why? Because then, if a man cheats, it’s no big deal…because it was just sex. Now, I’m not the “go through the motions type” I will flirt and build up tension, but it’s more along the lines of how a stripper would…the only difference is, I’m not getting paid and I follow through to a happy ending. Still, the disconnect is a way to protect myself. I’ve been married and faithful to the same man for almost 14 yrs….that hasn’t changed my views on seeing it as just sex. I love him and can be emotionally connected any other time, but not during sex.





MiaLancer69 said:


> Actually, our connection in every other way is great. We still have sex 4-5 times a week..if not more. However, the idea of “making love” seems a bit useless when men seem to crave the disconnected sexual experience most. My husband and I are very open and honest in our relationship. But something’s are best left unsaid, such as him wishing I looked more like a super model or me pretending there’s a connection during sex. Why is it only for men to decide what type of sex is important and at what moment? Perhaps, all should remember women also have needs and they need to be themselves regardless of someone else’s desire…





MiaLancer69 said:


> I’m actually quite happy with the way this is. It keeps me safe and it keeps our marriage a happy. I don’t think anyone should ever be given the opportunity to destroy another person, which for many, infidelity does. When disconnected from sex, I can see it as animal instincts rather than the emotional connection many think is created/needed. Does that mean I don’t feel anything about certain actions? No. I still have moments of jealousy or moments of anger…but I let them pass and move on. I remind myself, “it’s just sex. It means nothing” or I choose to make a lesson out of it. That way, it won’t be repeated again.





MiaLancer69 said:


> See, I find it quite interesting that you continue to act as if my relationship lacks intimacy. What is intimacy to you? For me, it’s knowing someone on a deeper level. It’s being able to talk to him and feel heard. It’s being his cheerleader, his best friend, his biggest supporter. It’s knowing that no matter what, we’re going to be ok. Intimacy is not just sex. If you feel that it is, then I feel sad for you. I’d hate to wake up one day in our 80’s and think, “gosh, I hate that we no longer have a connection because we don’t have sex.” How sad that would be. Thankfully, what we have far exceeds sexual connections. Thankfully so, and it does for many others, too. Consider anyone in the military, truck drivers, or any job that requires spouses to be apart for long periods of time. They maintain a connection not because of sexual connection but because they have a connection even without sex being involved.


If you and your spouse are on the same page, great. If he realizes how scared you are that he will cheat, that you've protected yourself from seeing sexual intimacy as exclusive to your marriage, so there's no deception, then you've got the ultimate BFFwB scenario.

But you're doing one heck of a lot of projecting (pot calling kettle black here, yeah, I know), making assumptions about men based upon your past, and especially the part where you talk about protecting yourself emotionally by making sex just a physical thing so that his cheating wouldn't destroy you. Perhaps our fundamental disagreement is on boundaries, the idea that sex outside of the marriage is a line that must not be crossed. It feels like you've accepted that as a likely, possibly inevitable that the line will be crossed, and you don't want to lose your marriage when it happens. Ask 100 people and you'd find it unlikely there would be many (any?) who could put anything higher than sexual intimacy higher on the list of things that are shared only by husband and wife.

I don't think most consciously think of it as the reason, but I believe the exclusivity of sex within the marriage, that is perhaps what empowers it as an agent of intimacy.

Finally, I'm not the only man here who thinks what your husband did at the strip club, with the lap dances, was horribly wrong. A complete lack of respect for his spouse.If you get rid of the comments from those who feel this way, you'll likely see more agreement with your views.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Funny enough, that’s not at all how it usually is. Most men go into a marriage with a porn issue, ask any man…they didn’t just randomly start watching it after marriage.
> 
> actually, I am quite a positive, upbeat, and bubbly person, lol. I’m not one that leans toward negativity. I try to see the good in all situations, some situations don’t have any good to see, though. Still, I’m a beautiful woman who is supportive, attentive, driven, and loyal. I certainly don’t see myself as someone unworthy or someone to be disregarded.
> 
> ...


" The lady doth protest too much"


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

TexasMom1216 said:


> There is so much truth in this. I was trying to figure out your headspace and now I get it. It makes sense. And it protects us from that whole “it’s different because I luuurve you” lie.


It makes sense if you accept the premise that boundaries carry tit-for-tat consequences and allow for escalation without destruction of the marriage. Some of us don’t believe that crap about “but it’s YOU that I love” nonsense as having any place in a relationship. We essentially agree, in our vows, to a sort of mutually-assured-destruction scenario. Not saying that men and women don’t try to waffle out of it..


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Most men go into a marriage with a porn issue, ask any man…they didn’t just randomly start watching it after marriage.


Most men? How do you know that? I asked myself (as a man) and the answer was "no". Maybe I am an exception?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

MiaLancer69 said:


> When I say “men” I’m not speaking on every single man, as they are all individuals. I’m speaking on the ones that I’ve described throughout all of my comments.


I think you need to rephrase, then, because it doesn't come across like that in your posts. They come across like blanket statements accusing "all men" of doing something wrong.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> However, I don’t believe a woman should be seeking a connection via sex if a man is doing those things then saying they mean nothing


This was the first thing you said that I totally get. Everything before this was shocking to me (male58).

If a guy (husband) is being stupid, then yes disconnect. Disaster is in your future anyway so protect yourself.

If he’s not, then disconnecting becomes a sort of punishment (or at least deception) for acts not committed.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

Casual Observer said:


> It makes sense if you accept the premise that boundaries carry tit-for-tat consequences and allow for escalation without destruction of the marriage. Some of us don’t believe that crap about “but it’s YOU that I love” nonsense as having any place in a relationship. We essentially agree, in our vows, to a sort of mutually-assured-destruction scenario. Not saying that men and women don’t try to waffle out of it..


AND emotionally checking out from sex acts with your hubby seems to be an excellent way to convince yourself it is OK to cheat on him. "It is only sex, so its ok if i boff my coworker at lunchtime, it does not mean anything" sort of mindset


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

The comments on here are interesting both from men and women. I will say that it might not be as common in women, but I fall on the HD end and my partners have all gone from frequent sex to less and less frequent. XH had ED and managed that by cheating to make sure "it still worked" and XBF was very LD after the initial bait and switch (we had a lot of sex at the beginning of the relationship until he got what he wanted from me - moving in) and he deflected by asking me why it was "just about sex" and coming up with wildly odd scenarios like "well if I was in an accident and couldn't have sex anymore, would you still even want to be with me? Obviously you don't love me if you only want sex from me." 

To me that deflection was the oddest. Would say porn, ED and just a very low desire in LTR are all recipes for disaster. I agree partially with the idea of people putting on weight in relationships, or changing their outlook on making themselves attractive can lessen the desire of their partner. But that just wasn't my experience really - if you think sex is just sex, then why bother with a LTR? .Is it stability you crave or love or something else? I don't really get it. I had some partners as a young adult who were casual but I just don't like how it feels to be with someone sexually who doesn't care about you at all. It's somewhat self-destructive.

Seeing as how I am divorced, I have sometimes been tempted to say "f&(& it, I'm just going to go have lots of sex with people I find attractive and not worry about relationships." Then I remember that empty feeling from having sex with people I don't care about and who don't care about me and it always stops me. For some people who are LD, I would guess sex is just sex. But that could be said to be the case for HD people too - it just isn't true in my case. I wonder if there is a correlation between lack of desire and the view that "it's just sex so what's all the fuss about? what are you complaining about?"


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

joannacroc said:


> The comments on here are interesting both from men and women. I will say that it might not be as common in women, but I fall on the HD end and my partners have all gone from frequent sex to less and less frequent. XH had ED and managed that by cheating to make sure "it still worked" and XBF was very LD after the initial bait and switch (we had a lot of sex at the beginning of the relationship until he got what he wanted from me - moving in) and he deflected by asking me why it was "just about sex" and coming up with wildly odd scenarios like "well if I was in an accident and couldn't have sex anymore, would you still even want to be with me? Obviously you don't love me if you only want sex from me."
> 
> To me that deflection was the oddest. Would say porn, ED and just a very low desire in LTR are all recipes for disaster. I agree partially with the idea of people putting on weight in relationships, or changing their outlook on making themselves attractive can lessen the desire of their partner. But that just wasn't my experience really - if you think sex is just sex, then why bother with a LTR? .Is it stability you crave or love or something else? I don't really get it. I had some partners as a young adult who were casual but I just don't like how it feels to be with someone sexually who doesn't care about you at all. It's somewhat self-destructive.
> 
> Seeing as how I am divorced, I have sometimes been tempted to say "f&(& it, I'm just going to go have lots of sex with people I find attractive and not worry about relationships." Then I remember that empty feeling from having sex with people I don't care about and who don't care about me and it always stops me. For some people who are LD, I would guess sex is just sex. But that could be said to be the case for HD people too - it just isn't true in my case. I wonder if there is a correlation between lack of desire and the view that "it's just sex so what's all the fuss about? what are you complaining about?"


there needs to be a balance!

some FK it sex just for fun , and some deep touchy/feelie sex for the relationship!


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

joannacroc said:


> The comments on here are interesting both from men and women. I will say that it might not be as common in women, but I fall on the HD end and my partners have all gone from frequent sex to less and less frequent. XH had ED and managed that by cheating to make sure "it still worked" and XBF was very LD after the initial bait and switch (we had a lot of sex at the beginning of the relationship until he got what he wanted from me - moving in) and he deflected by asking me why it was "just about sex" and coming up with wildly odd scenarios like "well if I was in an accident and couldn't have sex anymore, would you still even want to be with me? Obviously you don't love me if you only want sex from me."
> 
> To me that deflection was the oddest. Would say porn, ED and just a very low desire in LTR are all recipes for disaster. I agree partially with the idea of people putting on weight in relationships, or changing their outlook on making themselves attractive can lessen the desire of their partner. But that just wasn't my experience really - if you think sex is just sex, then why bother with a LTR? .Is it stability you crave or love or something else? I don't really get it. I had some partners as a young adult who were casual but I just don't like how it feels to be with someone sexually who doesn't care about you at all. It's somewhat self-destructive.
> 
> Seeing as how I am divorced, I have sometimes been tempted to say "f&(& it, I'm just going to go have lots of sex with people I find attractive and not worry about relationships." Then I remember that empty feeling from having sex with people I don't care about and who don't care about me and it always stops me. For some people who are LD, I would guess sex is just sex. But that could be said to be the case for HD people too - it just isn't true in my case. I wonder if there is a correlation between lack of desire and the view that "it's just sex so what's all the fuss about? what are you complaining about?"


Yeah, I think it's very easy for low desire people to say "it's just sex, what's all the fuss about?"... on the other hand, when you want to divorce them, they always come out with "you are divorcing me just because of sex?"


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

MiaLancer69 said:


> i think you mistook what I said. My husband very much values my wants and needs and I his. Does he need to know that I disconnect during sex? What good will that do, when our sex life is great and our emotional connection is spot on outside of those times? My point was, from the comments, men are stating that women need to make love and have more than “just sex” yet they don’t seem to understand that sometimes having just sex is exactly what a woman needs. It’s so she can let go of who she is, she can disconnect, and she can be carefree. Making love, many times, seems like the chore.


How often do you connect or make love with sex, compared to how often you are disconnected?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Actually, our connection in every other way is great. We still have sex 4-5 times a week..if not more. However, the idea of “making love” seems a bit useless when men seem to crave the disconnected sexual experience most. My husband and I are very open and honest in our relationship. But something’s are best left unsaid, such as him wishing I looked more like a super model or me pretending there’s a connection during sex. Why is it only for men to decide what type of sex is important and at what moment? Perhaps, all should remember women also have needs and they need to be themselves regardless of someone else’s desire…


You completely lost me here, and with many of your following comments.

I have known almost NO men like what you describe in my real life, and even of the men who come on this site hoping for more sex with their wives. 

You said later that you don't mean this as a criticism on all men, but here you most certainly do. And it's not fair...or even close to correct.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> How often do you connect or make love with sex, compared to how often you are disconnected?


Shes made it quite clear she does not want to connect sex with love, because she doesn’t trust that it won’t set her up for failure. There is no trust here. She says they have a wonderful, intimate relationship otherwise. Just this one area in which she doesn’t trust her spouse, or men in general. So she’s detached herself, protected herself from the potential for fatal damage to her marriage.

That’s my read so far. The exclusivity that fuels desire for many of us, that we’re sharing something that’s not shared with anyone else, is always a potential minefield. Is it worth the investment, knowing that failure could be devastating?


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> You completely lost me here, and with many of your following comments.
> 
> I have known almost NO men like what you describe in my real life, and even of the men who come on this site hoping for more sex with their wives.
> 
> You said later that you don't mean this as a criticism on all men, but here you most certainly do. And it's not fair...or even close to correct.


Just another man hater I think


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Talker67 said:


> AND emotionally checking out from sex acts with your hubby seems to be an excellent way to convince yourself it is OK to cheat on him. "It is only sex, so its ok if i boff my coworker at lunchtime, it does not mean anything" sort of mindset


I think she’s trying to protect herself from when HE does that.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Numb26 said:


> Just another man hater I think


she was abused several times during her childhood… I don’t find it strange she has a low opinion of men and that she has to detach for sex. What’s worrying is that she doesn’t qualify that she doesn’t think all men are like that. She did say it’s not the case, but very often it does sound like a blanket statement.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> she was abused several times during her childhood… I don’t find it strange she has a low opinion of men and that she has to detach for sex. What’s worrying is that she doesn’t qualify that she doesn’t think all men are like that. She did say it’s not the case, but very often it does sound like a blanket statement.


Not trying to insult you or attack you, but in fairness it’s pretty easy on the internet to make observations that sound like wild generalizations. I think she is not the only one who has done that, and did come back say she didn’t mean to.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

DownByTheRiver said:


> He is what he is and you need to face it. You are who you are and you should start being true to yourself.


Beware because some men's ministries preach keeping your wife subservient to you.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Numb26 said:


> Just another man hater I think


She has probably never had the experience of being with a good man, one that loves her and doesn't use her. So, she can't equate being with one.


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## Julie's Husband (Jan 3, 2022)

I tend to need emotional attachment and usually make love with my wife, but once in a while we have been playful and just had sex. I have Poloroid photos of one such time.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Fair enough… but saying it happens is a bit of a cop out? The lady is very eloquent.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> Fair enough… but saying it happens is a bit of a cop out? The lady is very eloquent.


And she is giving tremendous insight into the mind of someone who has emerged from significant abuse.

Insight like that is discarded often to one's own detriment. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

farsidejunky said:


> And she is giving tremendous insight into the mind of someone who has emerged from significant abuse.
> 
> Insight like that is discarded often to one's own detriment.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


We only know what she is telling us and quite frankly most of the people I know have gone through other types of different but equally tragic abuses(myself included), to not let it then cloud our opinions of seemingly an entre gender of people..


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

hamadryad said:


> We only know what she is telling us and quite frankly most of the people I know have gone through other types of different but equally tragic abuses(myself included), to not let it then cloud our opinions of seemingly an entre gender of people..


I am not discounting this.

What I am also not doing is discounting her perspective entirely, which seems to be what some posters are attempting to do.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Talker67 said:


> there needs to be a balance!
> 
> some FK it sex just for fun , and some deep touchy/feelie sex for the relationship!


This is exactly what she’s protecting herself against. Some recreational sex and some meaningful sex? You can’t have it both ways. It either means something or it doesn’t. When a man says “she didn’t mean anything to me, it’s just sex,” then it’s always just sex no matter who it’s with. This idea that “it’s different because I love you” is something to mollify the wife into tolerating extracurricular activities. Eventually it will become clear it’s not true and the wife is left heartbroken after wasting years of her life on someone who never cared about her at all. But if you just assume that all sex is meaningless, it’s just a physical release and don’t allow it to get you attached, you’ll be safe from that heartbreak. 

This isn’t something I would do in my own life, BUT I am not afraid of being alone and I also haven’t been through the kid of trauma the OP has. She has her reasons for feeling this way. She is protecting herself the only way she can right now. I don’t think she means to “smear” all men, she’s just taking a step back and recognizing reality and figuring out the best way to protect herself.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> I am not discounting this.
> 
> What I am also not doing is discounting her perspective entirely, which seems to be what some posters are attempting to do.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


Her perspective is valid. The issue is whether the spouse is aware. I’d feel that way no matter what was driving one’s thinking. The spouse has a right to agency.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I think she’s trying to protect herself from when HE does that.


did she say he cheats? I do not remember that


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Talker67 said:


> did she say he cheats? I do not remember that


She said he has indicated a willingness to cheat. First few posts by her. She’s protecting herself because she doesn’t trust him. I’d have left him but it seems there are children involved.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Talker67 said:


> did she say he cheats? I do not remember that


depends if you think having a lap dance is cheating. Most would at least consider it a betrayal.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Casual Observer said:


> Her perspective is valid. The issue is whether the spouse is aware. I’d feel that way no matter what was driving one’s thinking. The spouse has a right to agency.


I would tend to agree, except she has indicated that sexual fidelity for him is not a priority in his mind. (Strip clubs, etc). She is making the best of a bad situation.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

Casual Observer said:


> depends if you think having a lap dance is cheating. Most would at least consider it a betrayal.


i do not.
the guy SHOULD bring his wife to the strip club, so there are no big secrets being misconstrued. but a lap dance is a LAP DANCE, not screwing her.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I would tend to agree, except she has indicated that sexual fidelity for him is not a priority in his mind. (Strip clubs, etc). She is making the best of a bad situation.


i do not know what these type of strip clubs are, but the ones here in MA are really no big deal. you watch semi naked women dance. If you want, you sit at the first row and give her dollar bills as a tip. it is not a big deal


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Talker67 said:


> i do not.
> the guy SHOULD bring his wife to the strip club, so there are no big secrets being misconstrued. but a lap dance is a LAP DANCE, not screwing her.


So your wife can give other guys a lap dance right?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Talker67 said:


> i do not know what these type of strip clubs are, but the ones here in MA are really no big deal. you watch semi naked women dance. If you want, you sit at the first row and give her dollar bills as a tip. it is not a big deal


To you. Some people don’t invite others into their marriage. As long as everyone agrees then there is no reason to declare that all women must accept that there will be other women.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

Talker67 said:


> i do not.
> the guy SHOULD bring his wife to the strip club, so there are no big secrets being misconstrued. but a lap dance is a LAP DANCE, not screwing her.


The mind games that go on when a naked girl is gyrating in front of you crosses a fidelity line with most women as far as I know.

Your partner sets the boundaries for such things. If you disagree then pick another partner.

Im 99% sure I’d be in divorce court if I thought like you are saying. But I’m sure there are women who would agree with you too. I just don’t know any.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> The mind games that go on when a naked girl is gyrating in front of you crosses a fidelity line with most women as far as I know.
> 
> Your partner sets the boundaries for such things. If you disagree then pick another partner.


This exactly. Some women are fine with it. Some are NOT. You have to talk about these things prior to marriage. But you can’t claim that sex is a meaningful expression of love and then get it from a stripper.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Talker67 said:


> i do not know what these type of strip clubs are, but the ones here in MA are really no big deal. you watch semi naked women dance. If you want, you sit at the first row and give her dollar bills as a tip. it is not a big deal


And if it's no big deal then why would you need one?
Because it does things for you. Sexual things. Those belong to the wife. Now if your wife is ok with it good for you. But lap dance are a no go for all the women I know they consider it sexual infidelity. Just as most men would get upset if their wife gave a lap dance to same rando male.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

It’s really not hard to stay out of strip clubs on business. I just said, “No, I’m married.” If you get folks saying, “so?” Just keep repeating it and they’ll want to leave you behind after a couple of times.

In my opinion the guys who go want to go.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I would tend to agree, except she has indicated that sexual fidelity for him is not a priority in his mind. (Strip clubs, etc). She is making the best of a bad situation.


But she’s helped to frame and direct the situation by indicating that infidelity is not a deal-breaker for her; that it isn’t really a boundary. And yet, she proposes retaliation if he does.

It really does sound like a BFFw/benefits scenario. She wants to avoid being hurt, so sexual vulnerability/closeness is off the table, but servicing needs is ok. She wants everything else, really, the ultimate BFF thing. But I suspect she is at risk of her husband at some point discovering what sexual intimacy with a more open and vulnerable partner would be like… discover what’s missing. Such things are likely already going through his head.

The stripe club thing could be the tip of the iceberg. He knows something’s missing and acting out sexually. It’s similar to _some_ cases of porn, where it’s not so much an addiction as a frustration or a release mechanism.

in general, I think it’s dangerous to assume that you get to pick which 95% of a relationship you will live with and your partner's views don't matter. This is pretty much what my wife did, and she would tell everyone we had a wonderful marriage... from her perspective, we did, because my perspective wasn't part of the equation. She chose the 95% and geez, if 95% is great, why should 5% matter, right?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> It’s wasn’t always this way with him. But, yes, I’ve always had this ability. I was sexually abused by multiple people throughout my childhood. Then, my husband began showing signs that he was willing to cheat (but says he never did…think extreme flirting on the verge of groping). His parents have a marriage agreement to stay married just because they vowed to…because of cheating. My parents were both cheaters and divorced.* I’ve come to realize it’s inevitable*…if sex becomes “making love” then there’s room for hurt. It’s best for me to love my partner in all other areas and see sex as a transaction/agreement. That doesn’t mean sex can’t be good (strippers and prostitutes can make a man feel like he’s a king, yet have zero emotions attached).


That is a sad an cynical way to live life. Cheating is not inevitable.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> From a woman that checks of few of these, for me, it’s better to disconnect and see it as just sex. Why? Because then, if a man cheats, it’s no big deal…because it was just sex. Now, I’m not the “go through the motions type” I will flirt and build up tension, but it’s more along the lines of how a stripper would…the only difference is, I’m not getting paid and I follow through to a happy ending. Still, the disconnect is a way to protect myself. I’ve been married and faithful to the same man for almost 14 yrs….that hasn’t changed my views on seeing it as just sex. I love him and can be emotionally connected any other time, but not during sex.


Wow. Gotta say, I don’t like your stance but I certainly appreciate the radical honesty.

I’ll say this: if my wife said what you’ve been saying in this thread, I would inform her that we need to see a lawyer and go our separate ways. If she wanted to be that guarded with her feelings during sex, that’s cool. Just don’t do that with me. She’s the only woman I’ve slept with. Why? Because sex means something to me and that emotional connection is important. Could I give into a base drive and do it with no connection? Sure. It wouldn’t be hard to do - but I don’t want to. I want an emotional connection with my wife.

this is actually something that I struggle greatly with my wife. Your outright admission is interesting. I’m dead serious. If my wife was this brazen and admitted this to me today, we would divorce as fast as possible.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Wow. Gotta say, I don’t like your stance but I certainly appreciate the radical honesty.
> 
> I’ll say this: if my wife said what you’ve been saying in this thread, I would inform her that we need to see a lawyer and go our separate ways. If she wanted to be that guarded with her feelings during sex, that’s cool. Just don’t do that with me. She’s the only woman I’ve slept with. Why? Because sex means something to me and that emotional connection is important. Could I give into a base drive and do it with no connection? Sure. It wouldn’t be hard to do - but I don’t want to. I want an emotional connection with my wife.
> 
> this is actually something that I struggle greatly with my wife. Your outright admission is interesting. I’m dead serious. If my wife was this brazen and admitted this to me today, we would divorce as fast as possible.


This is exactly why many men never find out. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Hopefully I can explain it better this way,
> 
> I understand that completely and in that case, my comment was not directed at you specifically. If a man doesn’t do those things, then I believe a woman should build that connection during sex. However, I don’t believe a woman should be seeking a connection via sex if a man is doing those things then saying they mean nothing. Any activity that is sexual in nature will be one or the other…meaningful or meaningless. As a woman, emotions are attached to everything, thus if those activities are meaningless then any sex would also be…because they all lump together.
> 
> again this isn’t directed at you, as I don’t know you. It’s directed toward the men that want their cake and eat it too.


So can I interrupt you not connecting to your husband during sex means he uses porn, goes to strip clubs and undresses women with his eyes? Otherwise you SHOULD be connecting during sex, no?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Casual Observer said:


> *But she’s helped to frame and direct the situation by indicating that infidelity is not a deal-breaker for her;* that it isn’t really a boundary. And yet, she proposes retaliation if he does.
> 
> It really does sound like a BFFw/benefits scenario. She wants to avoid being hurt, so sexual vulnerability/closeness is off the table, but servicing needs is ok. She wants everything else, really, the ultimate BFF thing. But I suspect she is at risk of her husband at some point discovering what sexual intimacy with a more open and vulnerable partner would be like… discover what’s missing. Such things are likely already going through his head.
> 
> ...


You're absolutely correct. This will be a self-fulfilling prophecy. She assumes he'll cheat, prepares herself for it and decides she'll just let it happen because she believes it to be inevitable. She's not just preparing for the worst (which I believe is the smart thing to do) she's ASSUMING the worst will happen. And furthermore, I know what she's said, I've read it and I've paid attention to it. It's not that I don't believe her, but to my mind she is clearly NOT ok with infidelity. She's withholding herself from him because she isn't ok with infidelity and is protecting her feelings from it by assuming it's already happened/happening. 

I don't know if he realizes anything is missing because you can read the responses here from men who believe that "it's different because I luuurrrrvve you" and they think lucky guys are guys whose wives don't care if they have all manner of extracurricular sex. Honestly, there are lots of men who would be totally fine if their wife saw sex as a meaningless transaction as long as they could have as much extracurricular sex as they wanted. "It's no big deal," after all, for the man to get sex somewhere else. 

There are, however, men who are NOT like that. We have no way of knowing, but based on what she's said, it doesn't sound like fidelity is important to her husband as long as it's HIM who cheats and not her. But we can't know that. 

It boils down to honest communication. I was very clear that fidelity was important to me before I married. I shared my boundaries and he shared his. I'm not advocating that the OP open up to her husband, but I'm also not going to advocate modeling a relationship after theirs. Only she can know what is best for herself. I don't have a ton of sympathy for the husband because he has what men on here want: a woman who doesn't care who he has sex with (or at least says she doesn't). I think the men on here saying it's all cool to mess around when your wife agrees need to pay close attention to this thread: very, very few of us are silly enough to believe that the sex you have with others is just a meaningless sexual release but somehow what we have between our legs is special. This viewpoint is likely far more prevalent in the swinging, swapping, open marriage crowd than the participants realize.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Wow. Gotta say, I don’t like your stance but I certainly appreciate the radical honesty.
> 
> I’ll say this: if my wife said what you’ve been saying in this thread, I would inform her that we need to see a lawyer and go our separate ways. If she wanted to be that guarded with her feelings during sex, that’s cool. Just don’t do that with me. She’s the only woman I’ve slept with. Why? Because sex means something to me and that emotional connection is important. Could I give into a base drive and do it with no connection? Sure. It wouldn’t be hard to do - but I don’t want to. I want an emotional connection with my wife.
> 
> this is actually something that I struggle greatly with my wife. Your outright admission is interesting. I’m dead serious. If my wife was this brazen and admitted this to me today, we would divorce as fast as possible.





farsidejunky said:


> This is exactly why many men never find out.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


I think, or maybe hope, there would be some more nuance to the situation. If the wife came out and bluntly said I do not connect emotionally, nor do I want to connect emotionally with you during sex, then I would expect a rather harsh response from the husband, maybe even going down the road to divorce. I wouldn't blame him for that attitude and not wanting to stay with someone that isn't 100% invested in ALL aspect of the marriage. What I would expect from a happily married couple is for the wife to tell her husband that past issues make it seem impossible to connect emotionally during sex, even with you. In that case the husband would be going off the deep end running straight to divorce. The proper response would be offering to help her get over those fears. 

Remember, @MiaLancer69 comments only seem so brazen because she is posting on an anonymous forum where we can say just about anything that comes to mind without fear of real consequences.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

farsidejunky said:


> This is exactly why many men never find out.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


Yep. Exactly. It sucks too. I would hate to learn one day I was strung along like this for years. Seems like a waste of time for someone to do to someone else, but I don’t understand the minds of others.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

TexasMom1216 said:


> It boils down to honest communication. I was very clear that fidelity was important to me before I married. I shared my boundaries and he shared his. I'm not advocating that the OP open up to her husband, but I'm also not going to advocate modeling a relationship after theirs. Only she can know what is best for herself. I don't have a ton of sympathy for the husband because he has what men on here want: a woman who doesn't care who he has sex with (or at least says she doesn't). I think the men on here saying it's all cool to mess around when your wife agrees need to pay close attention to this thread: very, very few of us are silly enough to believe that the sex you have with others is just a meaningless sexual release but somehow what we have between our legs is special. This viewpoint is likely far more prevalent in the swinging, swapping, open marriage crowd than the participants realize.


But we don't know what the husband actually wants. We're not even sure what he actually has. The only thing we can be reasonably sure of is that he doesn't have agency, and it's very tough for me to come up with a scenario in which your partner's agency should suffer due to your own insecurities. With the exception, in some cases, of abuse by the spouse, I don't see denial of agency being acceptable in marriage.

Marriage is not supposed to be all-about-me. I willingly sacrifice my own well being, financial circumstance, recreational activities, for the sake of my partner. Not all of the time, but overall, it's kind of that lay-down-your-life for your partner thing. Maybe that's extreme for many, and that's fine, I get that. I think most will think 50-50 is ok. You give and you take. You marry expecting this. Denial of agency is the extreme far end; it's 100% all-me. And I suspect in many cases, spouses who try to hide their true nature from their spouses suffer from a mental illness, perhaps brought up by trauma.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Yep. Exactly. It sucks too. I would hate to learn one day I was strung along like this for years. Seems like a waste of time for someone to do to someone else, but I don’t understand the minds of others.


It's not as bad as you think. Oh. Wait. It is. I suspect it's also more common than most believe.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Casual Observer said:


> But we don't know what the husband actually wants.


No, without his direct input we can't know what he wants. 

I'm all in on my marriage and have made myself vulnerable TO A POINT. I'm ready (I hope) if things go wrong. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. That's where the OP and I are different: I'm hoping for the best. I'm trusting, but I've prepared myself for that MOAB to hit (I hope, I've worked it out in my head and hope I hold it together when it happens). But to my mind, that is me hanging on to my agency. I can't control what he does, but I can hopefully control my reaction to it.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I think, or maybe hope, there would be some more nuance to the situation. If the wife came out and bluntly said I do not connect emotionally, nor do I want to connect emotionally with you during sex, then I would expect a rather harsh response from the husband, maybe even going down the road to divorce. I wouldn't blame him for that attitude and not wanting to stay with someone that isn't 100% invested in ALL aspect of the marriage. What I would expect from a happily married couple is for the wife to tell her husband that past issues make it seem impossible to connect emotionally during sex, even with you. In that case the husband would be going off the deep end running straight to divorce. The proper response would be offering to help her get over those fears.
> 
> Remember, @MiaLancer69 comments only seem so brazen because she is posting on an anonymous forum where we can say just about anything that comes to mind without fear of real consequences.



BD, you are a fair and proper patient man. I wish I had the same strength you did. I think you are correct. I think what you've stated would be the proper thing to do. Find the issue and work on it if at all possible. That certainly would be the compassionate thing to do. 



TexasMom1216 said:


> you can read the responses here from men who believe that "it's different because I luuurrrrvve you"


TM, I hope you know that many men here (dare I say the majority) have sex with their wives because they love their wives and having an emotional connection to her during sex is of utmost importance. I see where you are coming from. There are some supreme loud mouths here that drown out many others and there are plenty of men that simply won't comment on a thread like this. I still believe the majority would see it my way.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Casual Observer said:


> It's not as bad as you think. Oh. Wait. It is. I suspect it's also more common than most believe.


Which is a crazy shame, too. This thought process is much in the same one that SoKillMe posted a couple weeks back about the wife that wasn't attracted to her husband. What in the hell? Why? Why go through the trouble of marriage and being with someone if you don't want to be with them? Why emotionally disconnect yourself from the one person you are supposed to be emotionally connected to? 

Damn. Just tell me the truth. I'd rather be alone than to get into bed with someone every night that looked at me with disdain or indifference. What a monumental waste of time.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I think, or maybe hope, there would be some more nuance to the situation. If the wife came out and bluntly said I do not connect emotionally, nor do I want to connect emotionally with you during sex, then I would expect a rather harsh response from the husband, maybe even going down the road to divorce. I wouldn't blame him for that attitude and not wanting to stay with someone that isn't 100% invested in ALL aspect of the marriage. What I would expect from a happily married couple is for the wife to tell her husband that past issues make it seem impossible to connect emotionally during sex, even with you. In that case the husband would be going off the deep end running straight to divorce. The proper response would be offering to help her get over those fears.
> 
> Remember, @MiaLancer69 comments only seem so brazen because she is posting on an anonymous forum where we can say just about anything that comes to mind without fear of real consequences.


Actually, I have zero fear of any consequences. I have, in the past, made it know that certain things make it hard to connect sexually. To which, he said, “why do you always bring up the past.” He gave me the ultimatum to “drop it” or divorce. I love our relationship in every other way, thus, I chose to drop it and disconnect from sex. Do I like it? Not always. But, in my situation it is ideal and likely for many others. It’s hard to get hurt by something when it means nothing. Hopefully this clears some things up.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

BigDaddyNY said:


> So can I interrupt you not connecting to your husband during sex means he uses porn, goes to strip clubs and undresses women with his eyes? Otherwise you SHOULD be connecting during sex, no?


That’s exactly what he does, yes. That is why I am able to comment from this standpoint.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

ConanHub said:


> It's important to only paint your husband with the brush of your experience.
> 
> I and other men don't fit that particular mold.
> 
> I had tons of "disconnected" sex before meeting my wife and discovering something much better. I would never go back.😉


Of course not all men, just as many men are speaking on women, yet not all women. However, if it hits a nerve, there’s usually a reason.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

BigDaddyNY said:


> That is a sad an cynical way to live life. Cheating is not inevitable.


Of course it’s not, and why cynical? Knowing who a person is and choosing to remain, by means of disconnecting in sex is cynical? I’d say, knowing that someone is lying to themselves about who a person is, is far worse.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Of course not all men, just as many men are speaking on women, yet not all women. However, if it hits a nerve, there’s usually a reason.


What's the reason? 

I can say for myself that if your comments came from my wife, that would most certainly hit a nerve with me. That would mean that I've been used for 20 years. That I was some sort of means to an end. That I never really had a loving wife. I was only "needed" for what I could do for her. The only good part about your comments is the honesty. You have my full respect in that regard. 

I've wasted many years of my life. That's on me. I would want this same kind of honesty you show here coming from my wife. That would at least arm me with the knowledge I need so that I don't waste one more second of my life and spend it on living to the fullest.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Of course not all men, just as many men are speaking on women, yet not all women. However, if it hits a nerve, there’s usually a reason.


Yeah I don't like broad brushing any topic and saying "women" as in all or "men" as in all.

My nerves get struck when lumped in with all when it's usually groups and subgroups.

My situation in life is actually statistically not common so I'm in a pretty small subgroup myself.😉


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Wow. Gotta say, I don’t like your stance but I certainly appreciate the radical honesty.
> 
> I’ll say this: if my wife said what you’ve been saying in this thread, I would inform her that we need to see a lawyer and go our separate ways. If she wanted to be that guarded with her feelings during sex, that’s cool. Just don’t do that with me. She’s the only woman I’ve slept with. Why? Because sex means something to me and that emotional connection is important. Could I give into a base drive and do it with no connection? Sure. It wouldn’t be hard to do - but I don’t want to. I want an emotional connection with my wife.
> 
> this is actually something that I struggle greatly with my wife. Your outright admission is interesting. I’m dead serious. If my wife was this brazen and admitted this to me today, we would divorce as fast as possible.


Then it’s not directed to you. It’s directed to those men that expect a woman to accept all of their actions and remain connected during what is a very intimate state. It’s not possible to do both, unless the woman has zero self esteem or she disconnects during the act.

I understand from your standpoint how it would feel, because you do see it as meaningful, but I can’t tell you how many men I’ve heard or read say, “ah, it didn’t mean anything!” When discussing the things I’ve mentioned. In fact, so many men on this thread have said “it’s not the majority” but it is. The men that don’t think this way, are the minority. You guys are true gems and should be proud of that.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Aside from her misstep typing "men" as in all, I actually like @MiaLancer69 's turnabout solution to her husband's behavior.

One of the funniest scenarios I've dreamt up would be for a group of husbands to go to a club only to see their wives stripping and giving lapdances to other men.😈

Seems totally appropriate.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> TM, I hope you know that many men here (dare I say the majority) have sex with their wives because they love their wives and having an emotional connection to her during sex is of utmost importance. I see where you are coming from. There are some supreme loud mouths here that drown out many others and there are plenty of men that simply won't comment on a thread like this. I still believe the majority would see it my way.


I hope so. I'm assuming you also realize that it doesn't go both ways: it's not meaningful with your wife and meaningless with a stripper. I want so desperately to believe my husband feels this way. I'm prepared if he doesn't, but I'm going to continue to trust and believe and hope I never need to activate Plan X. It's there if I need it.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> Aside from her misstep typing "men" as in all, I actually like @MiaLancer69 's turnabout solution to her husband's behavior.
> 
> *One of the funniest scenarios I've dreamt up would be for a group of husbands to go to a club only to see their wives stripping and giving lapdances to other men*.😈
> 
> Seems totally appropriate.


Me too. 😈 "It's no big deal," after all.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

ConanHub said:


> Yeah I don't like broad brushing any topic and saying "women" as in all or "men" as in all.
> 
> My nerves get struck when lumped in with all when it's usually groups and subgroups.
> 
> My situation in life is actually statistically not common so I'm in a pretty small subgroup myself.😉


That was never my intent to make all of you feel I was speaking toward you all. When I’ve stated men, in any of my comments, it’s directed toward the men that do fit the person I’ve described.
As I told Luster, some of you men are the minority and the exception. While some have stated most men aren’t this way, in my experience, I run into men that think this way daily. They believe that the acts of described are meaningless, thus rendering sex meaningless. So, those of you that don’t think this way, I seriously admire you all and hope, if you have sons, they are being raised with that same mindset.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

ConanHub said:


> Aside from her misstep typing "men" as in all, I actually like @MiaLancer69 's turnabout solution to her husband's behavior.
> 
> One of the funniest scenarios I've dreamt up would be for a group of husbands to go to a club only to see their wives stripping and giving lapdances to other men.😈
> 
> Seems totally appropriate.


I’m glad we were all able to understand one another 😅 and again, I apologize for making anyone assume I meant “all men” that wasn’t my intent.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Then it’s not directed to you. It’s directed to those men that expect a woman to accept all of their actions and remain connected during what is a very intimate state. It’s not possible to do both, unless the woman has zero self esteem or she disconnects during the act.
> 
> I understand from your standpoint how it would feel, because you do see it as meaningful, but I can’t tell you how many men I’ve heard or read say, “ah, it didn’t mean anything!” When discussing the things I’ve mentioned. In fact, so many men on this thread have said “it’s not the majority” but it is. The men that don’t think this way, are the minority. You guys are true gems and should be proud of that.


I see what you are saying. I honestly do. Try to take a step back for a moment.

Is it the majority of men....... or is the loud mouth woman-haters, the bad red-pill guys and the guys that think they are supreme ultra alpha that spout off in every thread? My guess? That is what you are seeing. The majority of men do not act that way or think that way. Hell, most of them don't speak on TAM. Most just watch or express their opinions in other threads. A lot of the good men will see a thread like this and not engage. I do so that the loud mouths I mentioned above don't sway the perception of women when it comes to men.


This is no different if I were to make the same comment concerning women. It would be easy to for me to say that most women here are miserable feminists. This is absolutely not true - but they sure do scream the loudest and do everything they can to shut up any man from speaking. It "appears" to be the majority of women, but in fact, it is a minority. The majority of the good women don't speak up, watch or simply move onto other threads that interest them. I can rattle off a few of the good ones that do speak up and keep things real. They will say what the majority of most women won't say, but the majority of women still think it and are a part of the good group.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

MiaLancer69 said:


> That was never my intent to make all of you feel I was speaking toward you all. When I’ve stated men, in any of my comments, it’s directed toward the men that do fit the person I’ve described.
> As I told Luster, some of you men are the minority and the exception. While some have stated most men aren’t this way, in my experience, I run into men that think this way daily. They believe that the acts of described are meaningless, thus rendering sex meaningless. So, those of you that don’t think this way, I seriously admire you all and hope, if you have sons, they are being raised with that same mindset.


I know what you're talking about. My group of friends is filled with solid men but I recently ran into a group of guys, we were all staying at the same hotel for some extended work, who had no problems picking up women while away from home and these guys had at least girlfriends.

A had a discussion with one who was about the same age as my youngest and I saw him thinking when I mentioned that men who get some on the side shouldn't be too worked up if their women are doing it too. It's insane to think someone would have no reaction to find their SO was getting some extra but it's pure hypocrisy and a double standard to expect different.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

Talker67 said:


> i do not.
> the guy SHOULD bring his wife to the strip club, so there are no big secrets being misconstrued. but a lap dance is a LAP DANCE, not screwing her.


I do, as I believe that all sexual activity is linked. If a man can get a lap dance and grope a woman, then say it means nothing…then turn around and say sex is meaningful…it’s very contradictory. If your SO gave a guy a lap dance and let him grope her, would it be ok or cheating? If it’s cheating, why? If not, why?


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I hope so. I'm assuming you also realize that it doesn't go both ways: it's not meaningful with your wife and meaningless with a stripper. I want so desperately to believe my husband feels this way. I'm prepared if he doesn't, but I'm going to continue to trust and believe and hope I never need to activate Plan X. It's there if I need it.


I am in full agreement with you. I haven't been to a strip club since I was 20 years old (before I even met my wife) and I only went because I was with friends that wanted to keep drinking and all the bars were closed. I wasn't impressed. It made no sense to me to pay for blue balls.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> That’s exactly what he does, yes. That is why I am able to comment from this standpoint.


Sorry that you have to put up with that and don't have the opportunity to feel what it is like to regularly have sex and a deep emotional connection at the same time. 



MiaLancer69 said:


> Of course it’s not, and why cynical? Knowing who a person is and choosing to remain, by means of disconnecting in sex is cynical? I’d say, knowing that someone is lying to themselves about who a person is, is far worse.


It is very cynical. You expect the worst to be inevitable. If that isn't cynical then I don't know what is.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> I know what you're talking about. My group of friends is filled with solid men but I recently ran into a group of guys, we were all staying at the same hotel for some extended work, who had no problems picking up women while away from home and these guys had at least girlfriends.
> 
> A had a discussion with one who was about the same age as my youngest and I saw him thinking when I mentioned that men who get some on the side shouldn't be too worked up if their women are doing it too. It's insane to think someone would have no reaction to find their SO was getting some extra but it's pure hypocrisy and a double standard to expect different.


Ever notice in 90% of the infidelity stories here that the cheater always just wanted a 1-way open marriage? They would be devastated if their spouse cheated on them...... but it's totally cool if they do it. It is mental gymnastics to the highest degree.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> I do, as I believe that all sexual activity is linked. If a man can get a lap dance and grope a woman, then say it means nothing…then turn around and say sex is meaningful…it’s very contradictory. If your SO gave a guy a lap dance and let him grope her, would it be ok or cheating? If it’s cheating, why? If not, why?


What you describe is awful and I wouldn't trust any man that does this. This is disgusting and I would consider it cheating. I personally would never do this. I would never touch another woman so long as I'm married to my wife.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

ConanHub said:


> I know what you're talking about. My group of friends is filled with solid men but I recently ran into a group of guys, we were all staying at the same hotel for some extended work, who had no problems picking up women while away from home and these guys had at least girlfriends.
> 
> A had a discussion with one who was about the same age as my youngest and I saw him thinking when I mentioned that men who get some on the side shouldn't be too worked up if their women are doing it too. It's insane to think someone would have no reaction to find their SO was getting some extra but it's pure hypocrisy and a double standard to expect different.


It absolutely is. That’s where my dilemma came in. We had discussed what was acceptable for each. He stated it was ok for him to receive a lap dance, but not ok for me to give a lap dance. It was ok for him to look at other women, but not ok for other men to look at me. Now, the porn thing was what actually drove the disconnect first because he became so addicted to it, while traveling for work that it led to strip clubs and trying to find ways to cheat. I handle all of our finances and he’s awful with technology, thus he wasn’t able to do much in ways that I wouldn’t find out.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I am in full agreement with you. I haven't been to a strip club since I was 20 years old (before I even met my wife) and I only went because I was with friends that wanted to keep drinking and all the bars were closed. I wasn't impressed. It made no sense to me to pay for blue balls.


Well, I'm not recommending it because you'd need a penicillin shot afterwards, but if you ask the right questions you won't pay for blue balls. You'll pay, but they won't be blue. Possibly green, with little screaming meanies crawling around, but not blue. 🤣 😉


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Ever notice in 90% of the infidelity stories here that the cheater always just wanted a 1-way open marriage? They would be devastated if their spouse cheated on them...... but it's totally cool if they do it. It is mental gymnastics to the highest degree.


On a side note (hopefully not too much of a TJ) it did illustrate just how easy it is for men to get laid.

Everyone of those guys went out to party and none of them went to bed alone. One guy woke up with three women in his room!

They understood perfectly when I said I like to travel with Mrs. C and it helped avoid temptation.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> It absolutely is. That’s where my dilemma came in. We had discussed what was acceptable for each. He stated it was ok for him to receive a lap dance, but not ok for me to give a lap dance. It was ok for him to look at other women, but not ok for other men to look at me. Now, the porn thing was what actually drove the disconnect first because he became so addicted to it, while traveling for work that it led to strip clubs and trying to find ways to cheat. I handle all of our finances and he’s awful with technology, thus he wasn’t able to do much in ways that I wouldn’t find out.


Why did you stay? I apologize if you've already answered this. If it's ok for him to cheat but not you, that's him telling you he planned to cheat on you. Why on earth would you settle for that?


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Sorry that you have to put up with that and don't have the opportunity to feel what it is like to regularly have sex and a deep emotional connection at the same time.
> 
> 
> It is very cynical. You expect the worst to be inevitable. If that isn't cynical then I don't know what is.


It’s been proven to me that the worst is a majority rule. I’m generally a very optimistic person. I truly am. I am a bubbly and happy lady. I like to have fun and enjoy not seeing the worst. I’m also logical.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> One guy woke up with three women in his room!


You make it sound like he was surprised. I mean, come on, man, he knew what he was doing.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

aaarghdub said:


> Online, I’ve seen a lot of comments of sexually disconnected partners raising the issue of how important sex is to them (emotionally) only to be rebuked by a comment along the lines of “dude, it’s just sex, get over it.”
> 
> So as a thought experiment this morning, I was thinking of ways I’ve seen what the title of this post is. I would offer the following as evidence that sex for your partner is just a physical thing and not much else:
> 
> ...


What you described sounds hollow and pointless. Going through the motions, if you will. There's no heat, build-up, nothing sexy at all. 

I'd say it's the sign of someone who doesn't see you as a person and is using you as a masturbatory aid.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> It’s been proven to me that the worst is a majority rule. I’m generally a very optimistic person. I truly am. I am a bubbly and happy lady. I like to have fun and enjoy not seeing the worst. I’m also logical.


Ugh. I know you're right. People in general are not nice. 😥


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> On a side note (hopefully not too much of a TJ) it did illustrate just how easy it is for men to get laid.
> 
> Everyone of those guys went out to party and none of them went to bed alone. One guy woke up with three women in his room!
> 
> They understood perfectly when I said I like to travel with Mrs. C and it helped avoid temptation.


CHub, you strike me as a guy that is extroverted and likes to go out. 

Me personally? I have no problems avoiding temptation. I am on the extreme side of introverted. I look at people funny if they even bother to come up to me and speak. I am extremely dense and don't even notice if a woman is interested me (assuming they pushed past my resting b1tch face. Yes, some will actually do this to speak with me). If all else fails, I can always just put on my FPV drone goggles. That's a 100% guarantee to get women to flee from me. I know. It works on my wife every single time.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

TexasMom1216 said:


> You make it sound like he was surprised. I mean, come on, man, he knew what he was doing.


He wasn't surprised but a lot of TAM folks might be.

I've said for years that it wasn't hard for men to get sex but I've been contradicted a lot.

People have mentioned how I look but I don't believe that can account for everything and these were just regular guys who weren't in terrible shape, had good hygiene and a little charm.

They knew how to show a lady a good time and were not offensive.

It doesn't take a lot.🙂


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

MiaLancer69 said:


> It absolutely is. That’s where my dilemma came in. We had discussed what was acceptable for each. He stated it was ok for him to receive a lap dance, but not ok for me to give a lap dance. It was ok for him to look at other women, but not ok for other men to look at me. Now, the porn thing was what actually drove the disconnect first because he became so addicted to it, while traveling for work that it led to strip clubs and trying to find ways to cheat. I handle all of our finances and he’s awful with technology, thus he wasn’t able to do much in ways that I wouldn’t find out.


You do have the choice though, of creating a firm boundary and require that he seek counseling to deal with his porn and strip-club issues. It would take time, but it's possible he could become a better person (yeah, a value judgement that a better person doesn't betray his wife's expectations of faithfulness), and you could learn to trust again. It could be a monumental undertaking. He could fail. And if he did, you're really not much worse off than you are now. 

As things presently stand, it feels like your husband doesn't understand the consequences of his actions. He doesn't get how they've affected you. That you've become very comfortable with a workaround that, if he really understood and cared, he would want to work at becoming that better person. And if he didn't? Then is he really that wonderful guy in all other ways that you'd want to stay married to? Or is there the potential for him to betray you in other ways?

Thanks for hanging in there and making things increasingly clear.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Casual Observer said:


> As things presently stand, it feels like your husband doesn't understand the consequences of his actions. He doesn't get how they've affected you. That you've become very comfortable with a workaround that, if he really understood and cared, he would want to work at becoming that better person. And if he didn't? Then is he really that wonderful guy in all other ways that you'd want to stay married to? Or is there the potential for him to betray you in other ways?


Here's the rub, though, if she were blunt and said, hey, you said you could cheat and I can't, so I know sex is meaningless for you so I have completely closed myself off and don't feel anything, is there a good outcome to that? I try very hard not to ask questions I don't want to hear the answers to. Either he freaks out and leaves because "you've been lying to me" (rich coming from a cheater) or he says, "great, less worry for me." Are either of those good scenarios?

I don't love @MiaLancer69's situation for her. I wish it wasn't that way. But I honestly have a tough time arguing against it, in her circumstance. If there are kids involved and leaving would wreck their lives (which we know it will) then why not just do a friends with benefits thing? It wouldn't be my choice, but when you've committed to create a stable home for kids, you sometimes put yourself last. I realize people think the husband is the one being done wrong here, but he really isn't. As we've seen from many posts on here, he's got the dream for guys who think that cheating is "no big deal." So I see what she means when she says there's no advantage to telling him. He'll either freak out and hurt the kids or he won't care and hurt her even more.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

MiaLancer69 said:


> It’s been proven to me that the worst is a majority rule. I’m generally a very optimistic person. I truly am. I am a bubbly and happy lady. I like to have fun and enjoy not seeing the worst. I’m also logical.


Could be you're hanging around with the wrong people (where does your husband fit in this?), or you don't recognize your own ability to make the world a bit better place by example. You'd be surprised how much impact a single person can have on the lives of many. The ultimate response to therapy is when the person in need improves, and recognizes not just their abilty, but a desire, to help others in a similar place. They go into therapy wanting to hide their issues from others, and leave wanting the world to feel as they now do. If therapy is successful, of course.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Casual Observer said:


> You do have the choice though, of creating a firm boundary and require that he seek counseling to deal with his porn and strip-club issues. It would take time, but it's possible he could become a better person (yeah, a value judgement that a better person doesn't betray his wife's expectations of faithfulness), and you could learn to trust again. It could be a monumental undertaking. He could fail. And if he did, you're really not much worse off than you are now.
> 
> As things presently stand, it feels like your husband doesn't understand the consequences of his actions. He doesn't get how they've affected you. That you've become very comfortable with a workaround that, if he really understood and cared, he would want to work at becoming that better person. And if he didn't? Then is he really that wonderful guy in all other ways that you'd want to stay married to? Or is there the potential for him to betray you in other ways?
> 
> Thanks for hanging in there and making things increasingly clear.


Agreed.

If your husband can disconnect this easily MiaLancer69, then I see a serious flaw with him. I don't think you should accept this terrible behavior from him.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I think, or maybe hope, there would be some more nuance to the situation. If the wife came out and bluntly said I do not connect emotionally, nor do I want to connect emotionally with you during sex, then I would expect a rather harsh response from the husband, maybe even going down the road to divorce. I wouldn't blame him for that attitude and not wanting to stay with someone that isn't 100% invested in ALL aspect of the marriage. What I would expect from a happily married couple is for the wife to tell her husband that past issues make it seem impossible to connect emotionally during sex, even with you. In that case the husband would be going off the deep end running straight to divorce. The proper response would be offering to help her get over those fears.
> 
> Remember, @MiaLancer69 comments only seem so brazen because she is posting on an anonymous forum where we can say just about anything that comes to mind without fear of real consequences.


This is exactly why I think there is at least a small modicum of honesty in what she is saying.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

TexasMom1216 said:


> No, without his direct input we can't know what he wants.
> 
> I'm all in on my marriage and have made myself vulnerable TO A POINT. I'm ready (I hope) if things go wrong. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. That's where the OP and I are different: I'm hoping for the best. I'm trusting, but I've prepared myself for that MOAB to hit (I hope, I've worked it out in my head and hope I hold it together when it happens). But to my mind, that is me hanging on to my agency. I can't control what he does, but I can hopefully control my reaction to it.


You can never prepare yourself 100% for this, no matter what you think. All you can do is trust that no matter what happens in your life, you will be ok, b/c you're strong enough to pick up your feet and keep moving on.

Speaking as someone who was precisely clear with boundaries, b/c I think the worst of most people (men and women), had a serial cheat father and ex.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

TXTrini said:


> You can never prepare yourself 100% for this, no matter what you think. All you can do is trust that no matter what happens in your life, you will be ok, b/c you're strong enough to pick up your feet and keep moving on.
> 
> Speaking as someone who was precisely clear with boundaries, b/c I think the worst of most people (men and women), had a serial cheat father and ex.


I know. 😟 I've been through the scenarios in my head over and over, practicing what I'm going to say. Deciding what I will do and hoping that I will be able to stay cold and detach myself. All I can do is prepare myself the best I can and remind myself that I don't "need" anyone.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I know. 😟 I've been through the scenarios in my head over and over, practicing what I'm going to say. Deciding what I will do and hoping that I will be able to stay cold and detach myself. All I can do is prepare myself the best I can and remind myself that I don't "need" anyone.


Why do you feel the need to do that? I guess there is something to be said for being prepared, but playing worst case scenarios about the end of your marriage in you mind seems like a four lane highway to depression.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Why do you feel the need to do that? I guess there is something to be said for being prepared, but playing worst case scenarios about the end of your marriage in you mind seems like a four lane highway to depression.


I've already threadjacked and I'm on the chopping block. Best to stop here.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I've already threadjacked and I'm on the chopping block. Best to stop here.


I think it is relevant as it stems from Mia’s posts of being disconnected from sex and (sex just for having sex with no emotion”.

I see her point and where it comes from. I do not fully understand yours.

You’ll have to trust me that I do understand your feelings. I harbor a mountain of resentment for my wife. I have been wondering lately if she is forcing herself to have sex with me, disconnecting emotion from it, and just going through the motions all in an attempt to prevent a dead bedroom because she knows I’ll leave at the drop of a hat if it happens again.
So she “solves” one problem and creates another. I’m not interested in emotionless sex. I can get that and not be married.

may the same time, I very much love my wife and believe in her that she can overcome her demons and we can come back to a happy center. I will leave if I have to, but I would prefer staying and having everything work out with both of us working hard on the marriage.

I think TXTrini said it best with knowing you’ll be ok if you gotta go and nothing can truly prepare you.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I've already threadjacked and I'm on the chopping block. Best to stop here.


I don't think you've threadjacked at all! You've helped many understand where such thoughts come from, eloquently and without rancor.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I see her point and where it comes from. I do not fully understand yours.


It's her thread, not mine.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> It's her thread, not mine.


Actually it isn't her thread, it is @aaarghdub 

The topic is relevant, so I wouldn't worry about TJ.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Why do you feel the need to do that? I guess there is something to be said for being prepared, but playing worst case scenarios about the end of your marriage in you mind seems like a four lane highway to depression.


Long story short, I always prepare for worst case scenarios. In everything. It's related to my past, which is a whole thing. It's not like the scenarios are on a constant loop or anything like that. I just have given it some thought. Women age, men cheat, it's a thing that happens. If I think about it ahead of time and at least try to take a step back and logically think about what would be the best way to handle it, when it happens maybe I can better weather the shock of it. Trust is not something I've had good luck with so far in my life.


LATERILUS79 said:


> You’ll have to trust me that I do understand your feelings. I harbor a mountain of resentment for my wife.


I don't resent my husband. At all. He's done nothing to make me think he'd do something like that. 

I think it's important to look at the world as it is, not as you wish it was. I will never not have a job, I will never be dependent on another person, and while I know I can't guarantee that I'll be able to react the way I want in that moment, it makes me feel more secure and in control if I at least have an idea what I would do.

If I get banned cause of this threadjack, I'll be huffy with you guys... 😉 😁 🤣


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

TexasMom1216 said:


> It's her thread, not mine.





BigDaddyNY said:


> Actually it isn't her thread, it is @aaarghdub
> 
> The topic is relevant, so I wouldn't worry about TJ.


The original post wasn't about a personal experience or a request for help with an issue they were dealing with; it was a series of postulations, looking for various viewpoints for why something might happen. I don't think anyone's gone very far astray from the OP's questions.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I see what you are saying. I honestly do. Try to take a step back for a moment.
> 
> Is it the majority of men....... or is the loud mouth woman-haters, the bad red-pill guys and the guys that think they are supreme ultra alpha that spout off in every thread? My guess? That is what you are seeing. The majority of men do not act that way or think that way. Hell, most of them don't speak on TAM. Most just watch or express their opinions in other threads. A lot of the good men will see a thread like this and not engage. I do so that the loud mouths I mentioned above don't sway the perception of women when it comes to men.
> 
> ...


This is invaluable, I had no idea what I was dealing with wasn't inevitable. Seeing the thoughts and opinions of decent men really changed my mindset and expectations. I also thought men thought along some of the disgusting lines I'd come to accept as inevitable. I didn't think true gentlemen existed anymore, that they were in the past, and all that were left in my peer range were weak, morally bankrupt men.

Even though I divorced my ex, I've come to be more hopeful, reading the viewpoints of many of the men of TAM, b/c it injected me with the hope that I can still find what I want, and I don't have to resign myself to either accept **** treatment or be single for life. 



TexasMom1216 said:


> I know. 😟 I've been through the scenarios in my head over and over, practicing what I'm going to say. Deciding what I will do and hoping that I will be able to stay cold and detach myself. All I can do is prepare myself the best I can and remind myself that I don't "need" anyone.


You know this is also setting yourself up for a self-fulfilling prophecy like you cautioned the other poster. I remember reading someplace, life is 10% of what happens to you and 90% of how you react to it. You have absolutely no control of anything and anyone but yourself, trying to mentally prepare is actually choosing to step on a fear treadmill and keep you stuck in fight/flight mode. That's extremely stressful, and I can't imagine it does any good. 

I've seen you post, you have a good job, sense of self, you're opinionated and not beaten down. I think you'll be just fine if sh1t happened. Have faith in yourself and your capabilities! If your husband decides to screw around, sure it'll be painful for a while, but you'll get over it and move on to something better. Pain shapes us, only you can choose to be strengthened or destroyed by it.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

TXTrini said:


> I think you'll be just fine if sh1t happened.


Thanks, your post is really nice. I will be fine, I'll always be fine. I'm very strong. It's more about how I would handle the different scenarios of cheating. I can say for certain I will not be disconnecting sex from emotion, I tried that when I was younger and I can't. I couldn't do what Mia is doing. I'm not implying one of us is better than the other, we're just different. She has WAY more self confidence than I do. So I guess I kind of am implying she's better, because she has more self confidence. 🤪


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Here's the rub, though, if she were blunt and said, hey, you said you could cheat and I can't, so I know sex is meaningless for you so I have completely closed myself off and don't feel anything, is there a good outcome to that? I try very hard not to ask questions I don't want to hear the answers to. Either he freaks out and leaves because "you've been lying to me" (rich coming from a cheater) or he says, "great, less worry for me." Are either of those good scenarios?
> 
> I don't love @MiaLancer69's situation for her. I wish it wasn't that way. But I honestly have a tough time arguing against it, in her circumstance. If there are kids involved and leaving would wreck their lives (which we know it will) then why not just do a friends with benefits thing? It wouldn't be my choice, but when you've committed to create a stable home for kids, you sometimes put yourself last. I realize people think the husband is the one being done wrong here, but he really isn't. As we've seen from many posts on here, he's got the dream for guys who think that cheating is "no big deal." So I see what she means when she says there's no advantage to telling him. He'll either freak out and hurt the kids or he won't care and hurt her even more.


Thank you. You seem to understand my situation and why it’s just not feasible to tell him. If it were an absolute horror (abuse) then yes, I would leave. However, our lives outside of this issue are not so bad. We are very happy in all other areas. So, it is my way of making the best of what I have, with the only way I know how.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

Casual Observer said:


> You do have the choice though, of creating a firm boundary and require that he seek counseling to deal with his porn and strip-club issues. It would take time, but it's possible he could become a better person (yeah, a value judgement that a better person doesn't betray his wife's expectations of faithfulness), and you could learn to trust again. It could be a monumental undertaking. He could fail. And if he did, you're really not much worse off than you are now.
> 
> As things presently stand, it feels like your husband doesn't understand the consequences of his actions. He doesn't get how they've affected you. That you've become very comfortable with a workaround that, if he really understood and cared, he would want to work at becoming that better person. And if he didn't? Then is he really that wonderful guy in all other ways that you'd want to stay married to? Or is there the potential for him to betray you in other ways?
> 
> Thanks for hanging in there and making things increasingly clear.


The thing is, that opens a door that can’t be closed. He will either choose to leave (unlikely) or he will choose to stay and for things to then turn from him openly telling me what he’s doing to then hiding it again, which would create more issues in other areas. I’d rather keep the honest communication flowing, rather than going back to the lies, if that makes sense?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> The thing is, that opens a door that can’t be closed. He will either choose to leave (unlikely) or he will choose to stay and for things to then turn from him openly telling me what he’s doing to then hiding it again, which would create more issues in other areas. I’d rather keep the honest communication flowing, rather than going back to the lies, if that makes sense?


I see where you are coming from, but it is sad that you are essentially having to lie (through omission) to keep him from lying.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I see where you are coming from, but it is sad that you are essentially having to lie (through omission) to keep him from lying.


She knows it's not a great situation. But you do what you have to do for your kids. When they're grown, you leave. As my grandmother used to say, "You do the best that you can for as long as you can, and then you save yourself." That is what Mia is doing. My scenario would be different from hers in that I would no longer have sex with my husband, but I would do the same, I would keep the family together for my son. Because the kids come first, always.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

Casual Observer said:


> Could be you're hanging around with the wrong people (where does your husband fit in this?), or you don't recognize your own ability to make the world a bit better place by example. You'd be surprised how much impact a single person can have on the lives of many. The ultimate response to therapy is when the person in need improves, and recognizes not just their abilty, but a desire, to help others in a similar place. They go into therapy wanting to hide their issues from others, and leave wanting the world to feel as they now do. If therapy is successful, of course.


It’s not necessarily who I hang out with, rather those I meet through work, school, games, hobbies, etc… The people I hangout with are what many on here call “religious” they follow a strict code of morals, values, and ethics. Even then, I’ve seen some of those men claim porn and strip clubs as sin and forbidden, yet do them days after attending church. Again, contradicting.
I don’t automatically assume a man is like this, but you can quickly tell when one is or is not by the way they treat the women around them (whether family or strangers).


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Thanks, your post is really nice. I will be fine, I'll always be fine. I'm very strong. It's more about how I would handle the different scenarios of cheating. I can say for certain I will not be disconnecting sex from emotion, I tried that when I was younger and I can't. I couldn't do what Mia is doing. I'm not implying one of us is better than the other, we're just different. She has WAY more self confidence than I do. So I guess I kind of am implying she's better, because she has more self confidence. 🤪


I get it, but one thing I know for sure, everyone has lots of talk in the face of cheating, and many of those have no action. It's one of those things you have to experience to understand, I pray most people don't.

I was/am a serious hornball, and still don't care to dissociate emotions from sex, even though it might be easier. I certainly don't think it's a better state of being, but everyone chooses for themselves what they will do/accept. 

I don't think it has anything to do with self-confidence, but personal demons and trying to make the best of a ****ty situation. Personally, I wouldn't touch a man who was cool going to strip clubs with another woman's hands, much less anything else.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

MiaLancer69 said:


> It’s not necessarily who I hang out with, rather those I meet through work, school, games, hobbies, etc… The people I hangout with are what many on here call “religious” they follow a strict code of morals, values, and ethics. Even then, I’ve seen some of those men claim porn and strip clubs as sin and forbidden, yet do them days after attending church. Again, contradicting.
> *I don’t automatically assume a man is like this, but you can quickly tell when one is or is not by the way they treat the women around them (whether family or strangers).*


Totally agree with the bolded above ^^^ 

However, those folks obviously don't hold themselves to the morals, values, and ethics they say they do. Bunch of hypocrites.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

TXTrini said:


> Personally, I wouldn't touch a man who was cool going to strip clubs with another woman's hands, much less anything else.


Oh I wouldn't either. I am no one's "Plan B." If you're not attracted to me any more, no one is going to force you to have sex with me. You'll never have to bear the disgustingness of touching me again. Ever. And please, we all know there is, in fact, sex in the Champagne room. 

I would be willing to stay in the same house and be basically roommates and parents until our son left for college. But no, if you don't want me, then fine, take it elsewhere. The SECOND my son finds out you're fooling around, though, we (my son and I) are gone.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Oh I wouldn't either. I am no one's "Plan B." If you're not attracted to me any more, no one is going to force you to have sex with me. You'll never have to bear the disgustingness of touching me again. Ever. And please, we all know there is, in fact, sex in the Champagne room.
> 
> *I would be willing to stay in the same house and be basically roommates and parents until our son left for college. But no, if you don't want me, then fine, take it elsewhere. The SECOND my son finds out you're fooling around, though, we (my son and I) are gone.*


Again, something you don't want to live. It's soul death by 1000 cuts, trust me on this one. Besides, your son might learn it's ok to mess around once no one finds out about it.

I still don't understand how one can be in the moment and pretend to have a connection while sharing your body with someone (and I briefly dabbled in casual sex when my marriage ended). It's just meh.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

hamadryad said:


> Just hold on there sister....lol...
> 
> IME, most guys resort to porn and infidelity, etc, because their wives either pulled some bait and switch crap on them, or decided once they had a ring on that they no longer cared about their appearance, what their husband needed or wanted, etc...The way you are categorizing it, it's as if a woman shouldn't be all that connected because all guys aren't anyway....Bull crap....
> 
> ...


I would like to add another reply to this, as I’m rereading your comment. You said men do these things only after women let themselves go. Does that then make it ok for these activities when a wife has health issues, we’ll say cancer, or perhaps she’s depressed, or what about as women age? You see, no matter how you spin it, it’s never ok to expect a connection during sex if the man is able to disconnect himself anytime he feels he needs something new…which for the men I’ve met (family or strangers) is daily.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

TXTrini said:


> I still don't understand how one can be in the moment and pretend to have a connection while sharing your body with someone


I don't think you can. I think you can shut yourself off but it's traumatic, like when you're raped. 

I believe you about the death by 1000 cuts. The blow to my self esteem would be crippling. And I tell myself "if it was a one-time thing," but it's never a one-time thing, is it? It's just the first time I found out, not the first time it happened. 

Good thing I have a job and can afford to care for my son alone. Just in case. It's not an accident that it's that way.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> You said men do these things only after women let themselves go.


Know how some men never take responsibility for treating women like dirt? Case in point. It is ALWAYS the woman's fault when the man cheats, according to this guy. And a woman aging or being ill is DEFINITELY justification in his mind for a man to cheat.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

It


TXTrini said:


> Again, something you don't want to live. It's soul death by 1000 cuts, trust me on this one. Besides, your son might learn it's ok to mess around once no one finds out about it.
> 
> I still don't understand how one can be in the moment and pretend to have a connection while sharing your body with someone (and I briefly dabbled in casual sex when my marriage ended). It's just meh.


 For me, it’s like having an alter ego. I am someone else during that time. Similar to a stripper named Cinnamon who is actually Jessica. While Cinnamon might be flirty, sensual, and sexy…Jessica is nerdy, going to college, and is a mom (This just an example and not someone I know, lol).


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Know how some men never take responsibility for treating women like dirt? Case in point. It is ALWAYS the woman's fault when the man cheats, according to this guy. And a woman aging or being ill is DEFINITELY justification in his mind for a man to cheat.


Absolutely! That’s why I say, while not all men do these things, a majority do…and it becomes increasingly clear which men do and which don’t just by how they view what is acceptable and find justification for it.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> For me, it’s like having an alter ego. I am someone else during that time. Similar to a stripper named Cinnamon who is actually Jessica. While Cinnamon might be flirty, sensual, and sexy…Jessica is nerdy, going to college, and is a mom (This just an example and not someone I know, lol).


I believe you, I just couldn't do it. It would kill me knowing that I wasn't what he wanted, that he wasn't really attracted to me so much as I was just there and convenient. That he'd be out with Cinnamon if he had that choice because Jessica, the person I truly am, isn't what he wants. 

And frankly, Jessica has her life together and is an all around more well-rounded and interesting person than Cinnamon so he doesn't deserve either of them. 😎


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

MiaLancer69 said:


> The thing is, that opens a door that can’t be closed. He will either choose to leave (unlikely) or he will choose to stay and for things to then turn from him openly telling me what he’s doing to then hiding it again, which would create more issues in other areas. I’d rather keep the honest communication flowing, rather than going back to the lies, if that makes sense?


But you're severely limiting his potential to become a better husband. What would happen if you said-

"Sometimes it seems like we're the perfect BFF couple. I think I'm ok with that, but what about you? Are we missing out on anything?"

A relevant question might be, do you really want to know the answer to that question? 

I'm not sure how long you've been married; think I recall it was less than 20 years. Personal experience tells me that you can't make assumptions that momentum will allow things to continue as they have. The things you don't know, the things that aren't said, the fears that he'd go underground with his porn, the idea that you believe, presently, that you are in control because he's not underground. Every one of those is a variable, and the only control you have comes from conversation, setting up boundaries, observation and enforcement. 

You can suggest a reboot of your marriage. Forgiveness of all-things past and go forward with honesty and the best intentions. Have the conversation about shared passwords and privacy being a thing of the past. If one of you is having issues, you expect the other to help you out rather than throw you out, at least initially. There is no success without opportunity to fail. 

If he's really got a strong porn issue, sex issue in general, it won't be easy. But he has to realize it's not possible to hide it, that secrets have a nasty terrible way of being discovered. You can probably even capitalize on his desire to be discovered and start over, rather than continuing to live in fear. Because he must be living in fear. You don't want that, as much as you don't want him to be having lap dances or spending much time in porn. 

I know this isn't easy. I know my words just sound like words from someone who doesn't have a clue what your life is really like. I get that. These words coming from someone whose life was turned inside-out on his 63rd birthday when a secret past came to life that explained a lot of things, and the gas lighting that followed was all about protecting herself at my expense. I was even given a 4 month time limit to "get over it" and get therapy, or else. It was my problem, not hers. It took two years for her to own the effects her past had on her, and how that had affected us. And she still wants to protect herself at the expense of our relationship.

Your husband may do the same. But it does get better, if you've got the stomach for it. I think you might be living a life that can sustain itself maybe until the kids are out of the house, and during those last years, you might both be quietly counting the days, neither one of you invested in the future together. Facing things down now carries the risk of the marriage failing much sooner, of losing your BFF. But the upside would be that dream of living with your BFF forever, not until the need and/or patience runs out, not until one of you decides there's more to life than roping off areas of vulnerability because you might fail. 

I want to die in my wife's arms, or her in mine, after living a full and complete life. Maybe that's not what you want. Maybe that's a ridiculous dream that shows a severe detachment from reality. 

I wish you and your husband the very best.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I believe you, I just couldn't do it. It would kill me knowing that I wasn't what he wanted, that he wasn't really attracted to me so much as I was just there and convenient. That he'd be out with Cinnamon if he had that choice because Jessica, the person I truly am, isn't what he wants.
> 
> And frankly, Jessica has her life together and is an all around more well-rounded and interesting person than Cinnamon so he doesn't deserve either of them. 😎


I’ve come to realize it’s not that he’s not attracted to me, rather he has his own issues that he has to deal with and until he confronts those, he’ll continue in his ways. He’s seeking validation from everyone because he wasn’t shown the live he should have been as a child. He is quite insecure, something I know from my younger years and can see a lot of those traits in him now. He’s seeking to fill a void that has to be filled with self love.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Dumb argument, and I hate it when people(mostly women) use it....

Equating someone with a non controllable health condition to obesity, lack of care about appearance, etc, is just stupid...It's not the same...Not even close...Nor does it have anything to do with the normal aging process...Normal aging process doesn't mean pack on 100 lbs ,chop your hair off because you don't want to bother with it..... or "give up" trying to put any effort into someone's health or appearance...It's not the same...

I am admittedly unlike most men...I expect it, but i don't fail to give it....I walk the walk...I do all the lifting...If a woman fails to do at least the minimum, then I wouldn't even have sex with them...Its as simple as that, so there would never be this "disconnect" you keep harping on...Life's too short for that crap...Im far happier now...

I get what I want and they get all, , or they get none...I don't settle...Did that already and failed miserably...I have no issue with people that want to play games, beg, coerce, schedule, whatever, or do some dog and pony show, like you are doing, if it's working for you, great, you have my best wishes, but I don't fck dead wood type women, just because they think I am not into them, or whatever point you are trying to make...


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> I’ve come to realize it’s not that he’s not attracted to me, rather he has his own issues that he has to deal with and until he confronts those, he’ll continue in his ways.


Like I said, you have a lot more self confidence than I do. I'm pretty sure I'm a LOT older than you, too, so I'm a lot less confident than I was years ago.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

MiaLancer69 said:


> I’ve come to realize it’s not that he’s not attracted to me, rather he has his own issues that he has to deal with and until he confronts those, he’ll continue in his ways. He’s seeking validation from everyone because he wasn’t shown the live he should have been as a child. He is quite insecure, something I know from my younger years and can see a lot of those traits in him now. He’s seeking to fill a void that has to be filled with self love.


So why do you stay?? That sounds like a miserable existence....(pity)...


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

hamadryad said:


> Dumb argument, and I hate it when people(mostly women) use it....
> 
> Equating someone with a non controllable health condition to obesity, lack of care about appearance, etc, is just stupid...It's not the same...Not even close...Nor does it have anything to do with the normal aging process...Normal aging process doesn't mean pack on 100 lbs ,chop your hair off because you don't want to bother with it..... or "give up" trying to put any effort into someone's health or appearance...It's not the same...
> 
> ...


Thank you. You are exactly the type of man I’ve been harping on 😁 and I knew I’d be able to tell the moment you replied to my comment. So, when your woman is on bed rest and gains 50lbs during pregnancy, you’re free to do anything you like…because for you, sex is just sex. For you, that’s all your relationship is…you clearly care more about looks than the person. That’s fine. You do you. But, don’t act like you’re not “one of those guys.” So, while you justify cheating based on something that’s inevitable (weight gain, aging, etc…) don’t try to paint a different picture of who you are. Own the person you are, that way people can pick and choose what works for them. ☺


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

hamadryad said:


> Just hold on there sister....lol...
> 
> IME, most guys resort to porn and infidelity, etc, because their wives either pulled some bait and switch crap on them, or decided once they had a ring on that they no longer cared about their appearance, what their husband needed or wanted, etc...The way you are categorizing it, it's as if a woman shouldn't be all that connected because all guys aren't anyway....Bull crap....
> 
> ...





MiaLancer69 said:


> I would like to add another reply to this, as I’m rereading your comment. You said men do these things only after women let themselves go. Does that then make it ok for these activities when a wife has health issues, we’ll say cancer, or perhaps she’s depressed, or what about as women age? You see, no matter how you spin it, it’s never ok to expect a connection during sex if the man is able to disconnect himself anytime he feels he needs something new…which for the men I’ve met (family or strangers) is daily.


I think the post you're responding to is awful. There's a bit of "truth" in it, but it's used to justify terrible stuff. There's an undercurrent of "Wives are here to please their men" and no mention of the idea that we're here to find ways to please each other, and feel better about how we can be as a whole rather than apart. My wife is that cancer patient you spoke of; she lost her hair, her boobs, gained a ton of weight compared to her former self (that was before the cancer), and I never stopped seeing her as something other than the most beautiful and, yeah, sexy, woman on the planet. She was and is the person I made a vow to, because my view of "love" was all-encompassing. More so than hers, as it turned out, but that didn't change things for me. She's been through 3 bouts of breast cancer, and her "replacement" boobs are awful. Lopsided and hard. I know why they're called "knockers" now. If she rolls over, she can really hurt me! NONE of that causes me to turn away from my wife.

Years of secrecy and deception and doubling-down on lies is far more impactful to me. And we're getting through that, bit by bit by bit.

You are not a "cold fish." You are a very interesting person, indeed, but you don't fit the mold that @hamadryad wants to put you in.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Thank you. You are exactly the type of man I’ve been harping on 😁 and I knew I’d be able to tell the moment you replied to my comment. So, when your woman is on bed rest and gains 50lbs during pregnancy, you’re free to do anything you like…because for you, sex is just sex. For you, that’s all your relationship is…you clearly care more about looks than the person. That’s fine. You do you. But, don’t act like you’re not “one of those guys.” So, while you justify cheating based on something that’s inevitable (weight gain, aging, etc…) don’t try to paint a different picture of who you are. Own the person you are, that way people can pick and choose what works for them. ☺



One thing is very evident....

You don't know sh!t about me, and you don't know **** about men, including your husband.. That's why you are so miserable...

If you have such powers of mental telepathy, then focus it on the lottery....


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Casual Observer said:


> I think the post you're responding to is awful. There's a bit of "truth" in it, but it's used to justify terrible stuff. There's an undercurrent of "Wives are here to please their men" and no mention of the idea that we're here to find ways to please each other, and feel better about how we can be as a whole rather than apart. My wife is that cancer patient you spoke of; she lost her hair, her boobs, gained a ton of weight compared to her former self (that was before the cancer), and I never stopped seeing her as something other than the most beautiful and, yeah, sexy, woman on the planet. She was and is the person I made a vow to, because my view of "love" was all-encompassing. More so than hers, as it turned out, but that didn't change things for me. She's been through 3 bouts of breast cancer, and her "replacement" boobs are awful. Lopsided and hard. I know why they're called "knockers" now. If she rolls over, she can really hurt me! NONE of that causes me to turn away from my wife.
> 
> Years of secrecy and deception and doubling-down on lies is far more impactful to me. And we're getting through that, bit by bit by bit.
> 
> You are not a "cold fish." You are a very interesting person, indeed, but you don't fit the mold that @hamadryad wants to put you in.


Gimme a break....  

Where did I say all men should cheat on and dump women that get sick or suffer some debilitating condition??

"there is a lot of truth in it"...yes...there is..


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

hamadryad said:


> Dumb argument, and I hate it when people(mostly women) use it....
> 
> Equating someone with a non controllable health condition to obesity, lack of care about appearance, etc, is just stupid...It's not the same...Not even close...Nor does it have anything to do with the normal aging process...Normal aging process doesn't mean pack on 100 lbs ,chop your hair off because you don't want to bother with it..... or "give up" trying to put any effort into someone's health or appearance...It's not the same...
> 
> ...


Also, the fact that you laugh at my post where I state that my husband is attracted to me…funny how you assume I’m not smoking hot (which I am btw and own that **** proudly bc I wasn’t always). You’ve deluded yourself into thinking that all beautiful women are somehow into guys like you. Funny enough, that’s the one thing I can say about my husband. He’s never been the type to say “you have to look, act, or dress this way for me to be attracted to you.” So, I do pitty you and whatever poor woman falls for your “charm.” He’s always told me how beautiful I am and he always catches hell from his friends and coworkers who say, “how the hell did you snag her?!” So, you can believe what you want about me…I already know who you are by your posts. ☺


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Thank you. You are exactly the type of man I’ve been harping on 😁 and I knew I’d be able to tell the moment you replied to my comment. So, when your woman is on bed rest and gains 50lbs during pregnancy, you’re free to do anything you like…because for you, sex is just sex. For you, that’s all your relationship is…you clearly care more about looks than the person. That’s fine. You do you. But, don’t act like you’re not “one of those guys.” So, while you justify cheating based on something that’s inevitable (weight gain, aging, etc…) don’t try to paint a different picture of who you are. Own the person you are, that way people can pick and choose what works for them. ☺


The reaction really says it all. 😂


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Thank you. You are exactly the type of man I’ve been harping on 😁 and I knew I’d be able to tell the moment you replied to my comment. So, when your woman is on bed rest and gains 50lbs during pregnancy, you’re free to do anything you like…because for you, sex is just sex. For you, that’s all your relationship is…you clearly care more about looks than the person. That’s fine. You do you. But, don’t act like you’re not “one of those guys.” So, while you justify cheating based on something that’s inevitable (weight gain, aging, etc…) don’t try to paint a different picture of who you are. Own the person you are, that way people can pick and choose what works for them. ☺


 Why do you stay?? 

I'd never accept that type of treatment, why do you??


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Also, the fact that you laugh at my post where I state that my husband is attracted to me…funny how you assume I’m not smoking hot (which I am btw and own that **** proudly bc I wasn’t always). You’ve deluded yourself into thinking that all beautiful women are somehow into guys like you. Funny enough, that’s the one thing I can say about my husband. He’s never been the type to say “you have to look, act, or dress this way for me to be attracted to you.” So, I do pitty you and whatever poor woman falls for your “charm.” He’s always told me how beautiful I am and he always catches hell from his friends and coworkers who say, “how the hell did you snag her?!” So, you can believe what you want about me…I already know who you are by your posts. ☺


Oh...I am sure you are the pride of your town.....

But as gorgeous as you are he's hitting up the clubs and beating his meat to everyone else, right??


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

hamadryad said:


> One thing is very evident....
> 
> You don't know sh!t about me, and you don't know **** about men, including your husband.. That's why you are so miserable...
> 
> If you have such powers of mental telepathy, then focus it on the lottery....


Funny, that’s the SAME THING all men like you say. 😂 it seriously never fails. I’m starting to believe there’s a douche bag handbook somewhere that y’all read. Sheesh. Not only that, but you somehow know my husband better than I do? Wow, you’ve been married to him for 14 yrs? That’s interesting, didn’t realize. You assume my husband is as shallow as you in all areas. He’s not. In fact, he’s never stepped foot in a gym, while I’m there daily. But continue to make assumptions “bro” 🤣


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

hamadryad said:


> Oh...I am sure you are the pride of your town.....
> 
> But as gorgeous as you are he's hitting up the clubs and beating his meat to everyone else, right??


Yep, but just like you, it’s all about being selfish and entitled. ☺ Mommy issues will drain a man


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Funny, that’s the SAME THING all men like you say. 😂 it seriously never fails. I’m starting to believe there’s a douche bag handbook somewhere that y’all read. Sheesh. Not only that, but you somehow know my husband better than I do? Wow, you’ve been married to him for 14 yrs? That’s interesting, didn’t realize. You assume my husband is as shallow as you in all areas. He’s not. In fact, he’s never stepped foot in a gym, while I’m there daily. But continue to make assumptions “bro” 🤣


But you are the one whining about your sex life and your problems with your marriage and husband, and I never have....almost 900 posts...not once...go and look...I'll wait... 😂

You never answered the question....why do you stay with this horrible man?? If you were my sister i'd slap both of you silly..


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

hamadryad said:


> But you are the one whining about your sex life and your problems, and I never have....almost 900 posts...not once...go and look...I'll wait...


But I’m not whining lol 😂 I’m owning my ****. That’s the difference. I’m not crying about it. I’ve stated I’m quite happy with my life the way it is. I just gave examples for why some women detach during sex. You’re taking it personal because you’re questioning which women have done this to you. I don’t do the whole blame shifting ****. 😊 You do those things because you don’t want to admit that you have deep rooted issues too…the same reason my husband does…those yours seem to go a bit further, as looks are very superficial.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

MiaLancer69 said:


> But I’m not whining lol 😂 I’m owning my **. That’s the difference. I’m not crying about it. I’ve stated I’m quite happy with my life the way it is. I just gave examples for why some women detach during sex. You’re taking it personal because you’re questioning which women have done this to you. I don’t do the whole blame shifting **. 😊 You do those things because you don’t want to admit that you have deep rooted issues too…the same reason my husband does…those yours seem to go a bit further, as looks are very superficial.


It takes a lot more than some chicken shyt banter on a forum to make me take something personal...This is all in fun...I assure you... 

My life is really pretty good right now...

*I just don't understand why you would stay with such a miserable man.*..Its got to be bothering you enough to take as much time as you do talking about it...As awesome as you are, most guys would drag their balls over a hundred yards of broken glass to meet all of your emotional and physical needs and never think about anyone else...makes no sense to me...


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

hamadryad said:


> But you are the one whining about your sex life and your problems with your marriage and husband, and I never have....almost 900 posts...not once...go and look...I'll wait... 😂
> 
> You never answered the question....why do you stay with this horrible man?? If you were my sister i'd slap both of you silly..


I stayed with him because I do love him. See, I don’t base things on what a person looks like or what they can do for me. Those things are always changing and will never be enough. I base it on who I know the person is, even when they’ve lost sight of it. My husband wasn’t always this way. He changed when he experienced a traumatic event that brought up a lot of traumas from his own childhood. At this time, he’s not ready to seek help to understand it, but I’m a patient person and hope that one day he will. 😊


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Actually it isn't her thread, it is @aaarghdub
> 
> The topic is relevant, so I wouldn't worry about TJ.


I don't see it as a threadjack, either.

The subjects are closely intertwined.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

hamadryad said:


> It takes a lot more than some chicken shyt banter on a forum to make me take something personal...This is all in fun...I assure you...
> 
> I just don't understand why you would stay with such a miserable man...As awesome as you are, most guys would drag their balls over a hundred yards of broken glass to meet all of your emotional and physical needs and never think about anyone else...makes no sense to me...


Perhaps my last reply helped clear up why I stay. We all are hurting and broken to some extent. I do believe there is good in everyone. Even the men I speak of on here. I believe all people are dealing with their own **** the best they can. I hold out hope that the man I married does resurface and when/if he does, I will find that connection again. Until then, my situation works for me. I know that there are many men that would like someone like me. I hear it daily. However, there’s only one man I want.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I think it is relevant as it stems from Mia’s posts of being disconnected from sex and (sex just for having sex with no emotion”.
> 
> I see her point and where it comes from. I do not fully understand yours.
> 
> ...


Would you mind clarifying a bit on the “problems” she’s facing. If not, I understand. Also, what makes you think she’s just going through the motions? I would like to offer insight, but without knowing what might cause her to detach, I can’t really know if she has.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Oh I wouldn't either. I am no one's "Plan B." If you're not attracted to me any more, no one is going to force you to have sex with me. You'll never have to bear the disgustingness of touching me again. Ever. And please, we all know there is, in fact, sex in the Champagne room.


TM, I’m gonna ask you, as a random internet stranger, to not refer to yourself as unattractive or disgusting. I worry that you think about yourself in this way and then possibly project that to your husband.
Is it possible that your husband is one of the terrible men out in the world that cheats? Maybe. I don’t know him and I only know what you share here.
I will say this from a different male perspective than the the one you fear the most from men.

My wife is 42, just like me. She doesn’t look like she did at 32. She doesn’t look like she did at 21 when we started dating. She has a bit more heft to her than 20 years ago and she bears the battle scars of delivering our two little perfect twins.

And she is so sexy, all I can think of all day is ripping off her clothes and throwing her on our bed to have my way with her. God willing and we stay together, I will do the same thing when she is 52 and keep this train going as long as I possibly can.

when my dead bedroom ended in Dec. 2020, my wife initiated a hysterical bonding period. No issues getting me to go along. I am very high drive. It didnt Matter that she didn’t look like how she did 15 years ago. I don’t care. When she acts sexy because she feels sexy, I cannot think about anything else. I swear to you I could pick up her scent 200 yards away and immediately that would be enough for me to ready to go for some sex. If she looks me in the eyes and shows me that she loves me and appreciates me while we are having sex, nothing else in this world matters. She is the only one I see. She is the only one I think about. Yes, I do in fact fantasize having sex with my wife while I’m having sex with my wife. 🤣

I fear that your mentality is working against you. I see beautiful women in their 50s and 60s all the time - and a lot of it is just attitude. If you walk around like you are a sex goddess, the good men of the world will see you as one.


be careful thinking that all men will cheat and look for the upgrade model. It is a minority.


again, I’ll just offer up the opposite side of things. Read 100 cheating stories where the wife cheats on her husband and you’ll keep coming across the same reasons over and over.

1. the other man gave me a compliment. Yes, a few damn compliments to make the woman feel young and beautiful again. That’s all it took for her panties to drop.

2. husband Got busy with work for a short time period and needed to do something that kept him away from spending more time with the wife. What’s worse is that this time period is between 2 weeks and 4 weeks. That’s all it takes. If these women aren’t given attention for 2-4 weeks, they stray. Unbelievable.

3. got bored. These Women need to be constantly “swept” off their feet. If the husband doesn’t kee constant excitement in their life, they stray.

4. These women are hypergamous. They are looking for the cash cow to take care of them better than what their husband does.



99% of cheating women fall into these 4 categories. Please note, I say CHEATING women. Cheating women are the minority of women. I think the majority of women do NOT exhibit this disgusting behavior. As such, I don’t automatically believe that all women are eventually going to cheat - but you’ll see the woman haters here say that, and they are completely wrong.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Would you mind clarifying a bit on the “problems” she’s facing. If not, I understand. Also, what makes you think she’s just going through the motions? I would like to offer insight, but without knowing what might cause her to detach, I can’t really know if she has.


My wife is a rug sweeper. If she can hide from something serious, she’s gonna do it. She’s been hiding from some past trauma that she has never addressed and it has hit a boiling point in our marriage where I cannot be the emotional “savior” for the rest of our lives. It has beaten me up to the point where I can’t handle it any more. It also caused our dead bedroom for an embarrassingly large number of years.

we will be starting MC soon and I am going to ask her to try some hardcore therapy. She has demons that she must face. She can no longer ignore these and expect me to stay by her side for the rest of my life. I can’t emotionally take it any more.

what Makes me think she goes through the motions?
90% of our sex is what I call “upside down” starfish. She prefers being on top. She doesn’t move. I have to keep picking her up and down to move her to cause a sex motion. Her eyes are closed the entire time. She refuses to kiss me.

there are other things she does that really causes us issues in the bedroom that I don’t want to say, but they emotionally hurt me very bad.

This is basically how it is now ever since she came “down” after our hysterical bonding period ended. She knows that she is on very thin ice after what I’ve been put through after all these years. She knows that I refuse to go back to a dead bedroom - so I think she forces herself 3-4 times a week so she can “technically” say that we don’t have a dead bedroom.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

LATERILUS79 said:


> TM, I’m gonna ask you, as a random internet stranger, to not refer to yourself as unattractive or disgusting. I worry that you think about yourself in this way and then possibly project that to your husband.
> Is it possible that your husband is one of the terrible men out in the world that cheats? Maybe. I don’t know him and I only know what you share here.
> I will say this from a different male perspective than the the one you fear the most from men.
> 
> ...


Well, I didn’t know whether to love your post or give it a sad face. I love the way you speak about your wife. That’s absolutely beautiful! However, I do hate those last few lines, about the statistics of women cheating. I can’t imagine that. My husband is often away for work, longer than 2-4 weeks, and yet I couldn’t imagine doing anything like that. I get enough compliments from my husband to sustain me a life time, and while I hear them often from other men, they men nothing to me aside from that: a compliment. I guess as a mom, wife, and working woman, I don’t have time for boredom lol and even if I did, I’d certainly use it that time up with a much needed nap. As for money, I’m relatively independent. As of now, I’m out of work due to a recent surgery, but will return in a few weeks. Sadly, all of these people (the men and women that do these things) have something in common. They’ve allowed trauma to become who they are. I was lucky enough to have counseling for my trauma early on…and while my therapist would frown on my disconnect from sex, she also understands why im doing it and that it’s one area I won’t change right now. I hope that one day my husband comes to the realization that his trauma is what causes him to act out, as I’d like to see the man I married again…I can’t choose that for him. But, I will stay in hopes that it does happen.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

LATERILUS79 said:


> My wife is a rug sweeper. If she can hide from something serious, she’s gonna do it. She’s been hiding from some past trauma that she has never addressed and it has hit a boiling point in our marriage where I cannot be the emotional “savior” for the rest of our lives. It has beaten me up to the point where I can’t handle it any more. It also caused our dead bedroom for an embarrassingly large number of years.
> 
> we will be starting MC soon and I am going to ask her to try some hardcore therapy. She has demons that she must face. She can no longer ignore these and expect me to stay by her side for the rest of my life. I can’t emotionally take it any more.
> 
> ...


Oh my. Yes, that’s more than just disconnect. Even while I’m disconnected from the emotions of sex, I’m still actively taking part in It. It almost sounds like she is in a depressive state. She would likely benefit from one on one therapy as well as MC.
The way your wife is acting is how I acted during the sexual abuse I encountered as a child. I don’t know if that’s something she experienced, either way that’s none of my business, but I wanted to let you know that therapy helped me so much. I hope your wife is able to overcome these issues and I hope your marriage comes out stronger than ever.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> I guess as a mom, wife, and working woman, I don’t have time for boredom lol and even if I did, I’d certainly use it that time up with a much needed nap.


Preach.

I'm sad you're going through this with your husband. I'm conflicted with wanting to hug you and punch him.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Oh my. Yes, that’s more than just disconnect. Even while I’m disconnected from the emotions of sex, I’m still actively taking part in It. It almost sounds like she is in a depressive state. She would likely benefit from one on one therapy as well as MC.
> The way your wife is acting is how I acted during the sexual abuse I encountered as a child. I don’t know if that’s something she experienced, either way that’s none of my business, but I wanted to let you know that therapy helped me so much. I hope your wife is able to overcome these issues and I hope your marriage comes out stronger than ever.


Thank you. Yes, the past 15 months of my life have been quite eye-opening. I truly didn’t know much about relationships and what is “normal” or at least “un-damaged”. I’ll just add you to the list of people that are all “hmmmm…. Yep, that isn’t normal.”. It’s all I can do to prevent my mountain of resentment from growing taller. That’s my fight. That’s what I need to work on and get over so that I can be the partner my wife needs moving forward. I’ve just gotten to the point where rug sweeping will no longer work for me in our marriage and I will divorce if she continues to do so.

The glimpses of my real wife come out from time to time when she doesn’t let her past rule her. It’s what makes our relationship so tragic - I feel like she needs to want to heal for herself and our marriage instead of constantly hiding.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

LATERILUS79 said:


> This is basically how it is now ever since she came “down” after our hysterical bonding period ended. She knows that she is on very thin ice after what I’ve been put through after all these years. She knows that I refuse to go back to a dead bedroom - so I think she forces herself 3-4 times a week so she can “technically” say that we don’t have a dead bedroom.


Ugh…

It’s hard but if she’s not going to be into it I tell my wife it’s ok I’m just going to go to bed and I hope she feels better soon. 

That messes her up. 

Last week she was like oh well I don’t want to have sex but I’ll give you a BJ. Me: why, what’s wrong are you ok? Her: I don’t know. Me: ok well maybe you will figure it out, good night then!


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Thank you. Yes, the past 15 months of my life have been quite eye-opening. I truly didn’t know much about relationships and what is “normal” or at least “un-damaged”. I’ll just add you to the list of people that are all “hmmmm…. Yep, that isn’t normal.”. It’s all I can do to prevent my mountain of resentment from growing taller. That’s my fight. That’s what I need to work on and get over so that I can be the partner my wife needs moving forward. I’ve just gotten to the point where rug sweeping will no longer work for me in our marriage and I will divorce if she continues to do so.
> 
> The glimpses of my real wife come out from time to time when she doesn’t let her past rule her. It’s what makes our relationship so tragic - I feel like she needs to want to heal for herself and our marriage instead of constantly hiding.


I agree, she does need to heal. I do want to give you a word of caution if she does begin the healing process…she will likely be very hot and cold. Her mood will go from extremely high to the lowest of lows. Please know, it’s not you…it will be the traumas all resurfacing again. I went through this once I was diagnosed with CPTSD, after the abuse I faced in childhood. Try not to take it personally and remind yourself often that it’s the storm you must both face before the healing starts to show. I can’t say how long hers will last, but mine lasted a good 6 months. after that 6 months, I still had occasional issues (only for short moments if something triggered the memory) but therapy helped me, as I had someone that could help me find my center again and realize “what happened then is not happening now.”


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> Ugh…
> 
> It’s hard but if she’s not going to be into it I tell my wife it’s ok I’m just going to go to bed and I hope she feels better soon.
> 
> ...


In a normal situation, I would actually do this, but we both know exactly what the problem is - and my wife won't be feeling better until a hardcore therapist helps and my wife actually wants to heal. That'll be the key. She actually wants it. I say hardcore therapist because her IC sucks ass. Again, my wife is an ultimate rug sweeper. She consciously or subconsciously seeks out people like herself so that she can continue to live a broken life. Her IC does not hold her feet to the fire and make her face her fears at all. 

And I get it - I don't like accepting terrible sex. That's my own fault. I really don't know what's the matter with me. The best I can come up with is that if I pass up on the garbage sex offered, she will be more than happy to re-establish the dead bedroom. That means an automatic divorce (obviously, both parties in physical health to have sex). I refuse to ever go back there - and we haven't even gotten to MC yet. So I guess I look at this as leniency - which is hard for me to do when my wife has used up every last ounce of patience I've had over the past 2 decades. I truly want my wife to win. I truly want her to really try hard to heal. FFS, even if I'm not with her, I don't know why anyone would want to live like this. She should be doing this for herself. So yeah, in MC I'll be telling her some extremely uncomfortable things that she knows deep down but doesn't want to hear. And then we'll see what happens. I have to see effort. Not looking for a fix. I'm looking for an effort. I'll let her know she has a year to show me effort. If not, no animosity. No hatred. She is a wonderful person. She's an amazing, caring mother. We can coparent. I've got no issues with this.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> I agree, she does need to heal. I do want to give you a word of caution if she does begin the healing process…she will likely be very hot and cold. Her mood will go from extremely high to the lowest of lows. Please know, it’s not you…it will be the traumas all resurfacing again. I went through this once I was diagnosed with CPTSD, after the abuse I faced in childhood. Try not to take it personally and remind yourself often that it’s the storm you must both face before the healing starts to show. I can’t say how long hers will last, but mine lasted a good 6 months. after that 6 months, I still had occasional issues (only for short moments if something triggered the memory) but therapy helped me, as I had someone that could help me find my center again and realize “what happened then is not happening now.”


I will gladly take hot and cold over "robot". 

My patience is shot - but if she showed effort? True effort? I'm not looking for a fix. I'm looking for a desire to want to heal. I will walk through the depths of hell with her and be by her side every step of the way if she can show true effort.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> I agree, she does need to heal. I do want to give you a word of caution if she does begin the healing process…she will likely be very hot and cold. Her mood will go from extremely high to the lowest of lows. Please know, it’s not you…it will be the traumas all resurfacing again. I went through this once I was diagnosed with CPTSD, after the abuse I faced in childhood. Try not to take it personally and remind yourself often that it’s the storm you must both face before the healing starts to show. I can’t say how long hers will last, but mine lasted a good 6 months. after that 6 months, I still had occasional issues (only for short moments if something triggered the memory) but therapy helped me, as I had someone that could help me find my center again and realize “what happened then is not happening now.”


And she has plenty of hot and cold from me. It's how I found this place. I was losing my mind. I had detached from my wife. I was ready to walk. No animosity. No hatred. I just couldn't take it any more. Then she decides that she needs to keep me and initiates HB and makes me fall madly in love with her again. She doesn't want to speak about it. She wants to rug sweep. Some days I'm in love with her. Some days the resentment of years upon years is so strong I don't want to look at her - so I get it. I completely expected this to happen (assuming we get there).


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> In a normal situation, I would actually do this, but we both know exactly what the problem is - and my wife won't be feeling better until a hardcore therapist helps and my wife actually wants to heal. That'll be the key. She actually wants it. I say hardcore therapist because her IC sucks ass. Again, my wife is an ultimate rug sweeper. She consciously or subconsciously seeks out people like herself so that she can continue to live a broken life. Her IC does not hold her feet to the fire and make her face her fears at all.
> 
> And I get it - I don't like accepting terrible sex. That's my own fault. I really don't know what's the matter with me. The best I can come up with is that if I pass up on the garbage sex offered, she will be more than happy to re-establish the dead bedroom. That means an automatic divorce (obviously, both parties in physical health to have sex). I refuse to ever go back there - and we haven't even gotten to MC yet. So I guess I look at this as leniency - which is hard for me to do when my wife has used up every last ounce of patience I've had over the past 2 decades. I truly want my wife to win. I truly want her to really try hard to heal. FFS, even if I'm not with her, I don't know why anyone would want to live like this. She should be doing this for herself. So yeah, in MC I'll be telling her some extremely uncomfortable things that she knows deep down but doesn't want to hear. And then we'll see what happens. I have to see effort. Not looking for a fix. I'm looking for an effort. I'll let her know she has a year to show me effort. If not, no animosity. No hatred. She is a wonderful person. She's an amazing, caring mother. We can coparent. I've got no issues with this.


It's too bad she doesn't realize what she gave up by unwilling to heal. 
It's terrible to look back on life and how much of it you wasted by rugsweeping.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

LATERILUS79 said:


> In a normal situation, I would actually do this, but we both know exactly what the problem is - and my wife won't be feeling better until a hardcore therapist helps and my wife actually wants to heal. That'll be the key. She actually wants it. I say hardcore therapist because her IC sucks ass. Again, my wife is an ultimate rug sweeper. She consciously or subconsciously seeks out people like herself so that she can continue to live a broken life. Her IC does not hold her feet to the fire and make her face her fears at all.
> 
> And I get it - I don't like accepting terrible sex. That's my own fault. I really don't know what's the matter with me. The best I can come up with is that if I pass up on the garbage sex offered, she will be more than happy to re-establish the dead bedroom. That means an automatic divorce (obviously, both parties in physical health to have sex). I refuse to ever go back there - and we haven't even gotten to MC yet. So I guess I look at this as leniency - which is hard for me to do when my wife has used up every last ounce of patience I've had over the past 2 decades. I truly want my wife to win. I truly want her to really try hard to heal. FFS, even if I'm not with her, I don't know why anyone would want to live like this. She should be doing this for herself. So yeah, in MC I'll be telling her some extremely uncomfortable things that she knows deep down but doesn't want to hear. And then we'll see what happens. I have to see effort. Not looking for a fix. I'm looking for an effort. I'll let her know she has a year to show me effort. If not, no animosity. No hatred. She is a wonderful person. She's an amazing, caring mother. We can coparent. I've got no issues with this.


I understand this from a child’s point of view. My mother was and still is like this. She never wanted treatment. She likes being depressed, I think. In fact, I’d go so far as to say she thrives in it. It kinda made my life a living hell, so if your wife is being a good mom then I give her props for that…my mom was a “good mom“ in many ways (food on the table, clean house, clothes to wear) but she was not emotionally available 99% of the time. When she was, the emotions were either hatred, disgust, or fake joy. Her life now is all about try to control her kids, who are all adults or controlling her husband (my stepdad) to the point of not allowing him to speak to his sister or brother.
I hope so much that your wife overcomes this. I’ve always wished that my mom would too. I see she has potential to be so much more, yet she always chooses this instead. Everything is negative. Sunny days are too nice and rainy days are too dreary.
Does your wife experience this outside of the bedroom?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> I stayed with him because I do love him. See, I don’t base things on what a person looks like or what they can do for me. Those things are always changing and will never be enough. I base it on who I know the person is, even when they’ve lost sight of it. My husband wasn’t always this way. He changed when he experienced a traumatic event that brought up a lot of traumas from his own childhood. At this time, he’s not ready to seek help to understand it, but I’m a patient person and hope that one day he will. 😊


Before he was "this way", which I assume to mean strip clubs, porn etc.,.were you all in sexually? Or have you always emotionally detached and pretended to be an alter ego during sex? If not, have you ever given yourself fully to someone?


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

LATERILUS79 said:


> And she has plenty of hot and cold from me. It's how I found this place. I was losing my mind. I had detached from my wife. I was ready to walk. No animosity. No hatred. I just couldn't take it any more. Then she decides that she needs to keep me and initiates HB and makes me fall madly in love with her again. She doesn't want to speak about it. She wants to rug sweep. Some days I'm in love with her. Some days the resentment of years upon years is so strong I don't want to look at her - so I get it. I completely expected this to happen (assuming we get there).


Ah, I see. I was in your spot, when my husbands issue arouse. I went from loving him to hating him, then loving him and hating myself. It caused a whirlwind of emotions. I’m glad you’re willing to work with her, as long as she’s willing to work on herself. I hope she does. There’s so much strength in overcoming the things that were meant to destroy us.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Before he was "this way", which I assume to mean strip clubs, porn etc.,.were you all in sexually? Or have you always emotionally detached and pretended to be an alter ego during sex? If not, have you ever given yourself fully to someone?


Before all of this, yes, I was emotionally attached during sex. I’ve always had the ability to turn it off, which I did throughout high school. He was the first and only person I ever emotionally attached to during sex. This is likely why I refuse to re establish that connection until I see he’s working on changing, because it would be a hurt that would send me into a dark place mentally and emotionally.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

ccpowerslave said:


> Ugh…
> 
> It’s hard but if she’s not going to be into it I tell my wife it’s ok I’m just going to go to bed and I hope she feels better soon.
> 
> ...


This.

Having sex with one's wife while she is biting the pillow does both a disservice...

Her, because she will build resentment for doing something that she doesn't want to do.

And him, as he clearly knows he's doing sex TO her rather than having sex WITH her. And a part of him will hate himself for hurting her while succumbing to his need. 

@LATERILUS79, I didn't know it had come to that point with you two.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

LATERILUS79 said:


> In a normal situation, I would actually do this, but we both know exactly what the problem is - and my wife won't be feeling better until a hardcore therapist helps and my wife actually wants to heal. That'll be the key. She actually wants it. I say hardcore therapist because her IC sucks ass. Again, my wife is an ultimate rug sweeper. She consciously or subconsciously seeks out people like herself so that she can continue to live a broken life. Her IC does not hold her feet to the fire and make her face her fears at all.
> 
> And I get it - I don't like accepting terrible sex. That's my own fault. I really don't know what's the matter with me. The best I can come up with is that if I pass up on the garbage sex offered, she will be more than happy to re-establish the dead bedroom. That means an automatic divorce (obviously, both parties in physical health to have sex). I refuse to ever go back there - and we haven't even gotten to MC yet. So I guess I look at this as leniency - which is hard for me to do when my wife has used up every last ounce of patience I've had over the past 2 decades. I truly want my wife to win. I truly want her to really try hard to heal. FFS, even if I'm not with her, I don't know why anyone would want to live like this. She should be doing this for herself. So yeah, in MC I'll be telling her some extremely uncomfortable things that she knows deep down but doesn't want to hear. And then we'll see what happens. I have to see effort. Not looking for a fix. I'm looking for an effort. I'll let her know she has a year to show me effort. If not, no animosity. No hatred. She is a wonderful person. She's an amazing, caring mother. We can coparent. I've got no issues with this.


That's because you're still carrying her water. It's a sign of codependency.

As you are finding out, you can't want it for her. She has to want to want it, which is incredibly difficult for somebody who has suffered trauma; childhood, sexual, or otherwise.

It took my wife around 6 to 8 months before she actually began to want to revisit her sexual assault, and initially she only did it because she knew she was losing me. 

Once she realized I was willing to help carry her if she would simply take the first step, her motivation increased significantly.





Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jonty30 said:


> It's too bad she doesn't realize what she gave up by unwilling to heal.
> It's terrible to look back on life and how much of it you wasted by rugsweeping.


Not unlike a drowning person, they have to choose to listen to you and not panic as you try to pull them to safety. 

If they don't listen, you both may drown. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

farsidejunky said:


> This.
> 
> Having sex with one's wife while she is biting the pillow does both a disservice...
> 
> ...


It's been like this for the past 3-4 months. 

Honestly, I should have seen it coming. For the past 18 years, it's always been the case of "what does she fear the most? Facing her demons or losing me?" I've done much thinking over this past year and a regular pattern keeps popping up. Every time I started to pull away from her is when she would put in effort. Of course after realizing this I just add to my ever growing resentment pile. I really should open up a few slopes on that mountain and at least make some money off it. 

So yeah, she does what I consider the bare minimum effort to make me re-fall in love with her to stay. Sometimes the bare minimum isn't a lot. Sometimes it requires hysterical bonding with the most wild and crazy physical sex we've ever had let alone the most passionate and loving..... but you see, it is always the bare minimum. She's not stupid. She saw my foot was out the door with the second foot lifting up. She knew something drastic needed to be done to keep me this time. 

And it is sooooooooo Insulting. I am so sick and tired of taking a back seat to her trauma. I used to have sympathy for her. I don't anymore and that makes me feel terrible. She used it all up along with my patience. Her normal default is to live in fear of her trauma from decades ago....... until I'm ready to leave. Then the fear of losing me takes her over. She corrects that "problem" in her life and then she reverts to her default. 

The only thing different this time is that she knows she is in trouble because I'm not allowing her to revert. She now has both fears hitting her at the same time because I am so very pissed off and I watch her like a hawk now. She can't hide and rug sweep anymore. She knows that there is only a short period of time left to correct our path. 

She has to come to a decision. Face an old fear. Confront her trauma - or enjoy living with it for the rest of her life...... without me in it. 


To some that is going to sound extremely harsh. I'd love for those people to live a day in my shoes. I have to laugh at the number of garbage men that get amazing women on this forum. 🤣 it truly is laughable. If I end up on the single market in the next two years, I don't think I'll have too much trouble finding a quality woman that enjoys being treated well, taken care of, living a fun lifestyle and given respect and love. And if for some reason I don't, being alone is better than the limbo I am in right now. 

My wife has first dibs due to how much I am in love with her. The opportunity is there. She just has to take it and run with it.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Long story short, I always prepare for worst case scenarios. In everything. It's related to my past, which is a whole thing. It's not like the scenarios are on a constant loop or anything like that. I just have given it some thought. Women age, men cheat, it's a thing that happens. If I think about it ahead of time and at least try to take a step back and logically think about what would be the best way to handle it, when it happens maybe I can better weather the shock of it. Trust is not something I've had good luck with so far in my life.
> 
> I don't resent my husband. At all. He's done nothing to make me think he'd do something like that.
> 
> ...


Being a slight rule-breaker, I haven't read all the posts in this thread. However, it was interesting to read this. Early on in our relationship, I was guarded to a point and based on what I'd experienced of my parents. Although not a trauma response. Nothing to do with Batman's actions whatsoever. Watching TV about a couple once, I turned to him and said, 'Don't you ever do that to me. I'll cut your balls off.' I know, not particularly graceful. He replied, 'Not sure threats are an effective way to keep me around.'

Years back Batman shared this analogy of what being with me sometimes felt like to him, and that's the feeling when you're sitting on a chair and tilting on the back two legs and there's that moment where the balance faults and you're not sure whether you're going to fall back completely or remain upright and balanced. However, years in the making, it was such an internally freeing experience when I allowed myself to completely 'let go' and I learned to trust in myself more. In turn, that allowed me to trust in him more and completely accept his love in a way that I hadn't before. I personally felt a shift within my own part of our dynamic when I knew I'd completely let down any forms of protective walls or defensive patterns that I'd formed prior to meeting him. When I got to that point, I started to feel more (ready for the word).... _congruent. _And it felt freeing. He noticed the shift too, and no longer had the feeling of being on a chair about to lose balance.

That's just one aspect to share; I think learning and growth is a continual process. And both kind of cool and kind of cringey to reflect back on elements of yourself that have changed. And don't get me wrong, I'm not downplaying what some have been through. I also agree that one doesn't really know what they'd do in certain scenarios until experiencing them. However, in the moment, I'm rolling with what we got.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

LATERILUS79 said:


> It's been like this for the past 3-4 months.
> 
> Honestly, I should have seen it coming. For the past 18 years, it's always been the case of "what does she fear the most? Facing her demons or losing me?" I've done much thinking over this past year and a regular pattern keeps popping up. Every time I started to pull away from her is when she would put in effort. Of course after realizing this I just add to my ever growing resentment pile. I really should open up a few slopes on that mountain and at least make some money off it.
> 
> ...


The sad thing is that fear is one of the few things she truly understands.

Can you imagine how emotionally painful it must be to live in that world?

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Does your wife experience this outside of the bedroom?


Does a bear sh*t in the woods? 🤣 

Think about a topic. Any topic. If it is something above the level of mundane, we don't talk about it. 

We NEVER talk. 

I am very confrontational. She is very exact opposite of that. 


If we need to talk about something more serious than 

How was your day
How was school for the kids
How's the weather


Then it requires me to schedule a talk. At the very most, I can have 1 hour per week. That's it. She will start to cry if we go past that. She says she gets overwhelmed. 


TO BE FAIR...... I am intense and I have a mountain of resentment to control. This would be imposing to anyone. She cannot compete with that and I need to be the better man and have that under control when I speak with her. 

Regardless, 1 hour a week. Once hysterical bonding started last year and I about lost my mind due to falling love with someone that I was just about detached from, I instated weekly discussions. I wanted 1 hour every night. She can only do it once a week. If I don't remind her 5-6 times, she will revert to her professional license in rug sweeping. If she can't rug sweep, she will go to her bag of excuses as to why we can't talk. 

After this pastThanksgiving, she told me she needed a one month break from our talks so she could enjoy Christmas. That turned into 3 months. We are having our first talk since before Thanksgiving this week because I told her I won't make it to MC (4-6 weeks from now).

Again, she only takes action when the fear of losing me outweighs her demons.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

heartsbeating said:


> Being a slight rule-breaker, I haven't read all the posts in this thread. However, it was interesting to read this. Early on in our relationship, I was guarded to a point and based on what I'd experienced of my parents. Nothing to do with Batman's actions whatsoever. Watching TV about a couple once, I turned to him and said, 'Don't you ever do that to me. I'll cut your balls off.' I know, not particularly graceful. He replied, 'Not sure threats are an effective way to keep me around.'
> 
> Years back Batman shared this analogy of what being with me sometimes felt like to him, and that's the feeling when you're sitting on a chair and tilting on the back two legs and there's that moment where the balance faults and you're not sure whether you're going to fall back completely or remain upright and balanced. However, years in the making, it was such an internally freeing experience when I allowed myself to completely 'let go' and I learned to trust in myself more. In turn, that allowed me to trust in him more and completely accept his love in a way that I hadn't before. I personally felt a shift within my own part of our dynamic when I knew I'd completely let down any forms of protective walls or defensive patterns that I'd formed prior to meeting him. When I got to that point, I started to feel more (ready for the word).... _congruent. _And it felt freeing. He noticed the shift too, and no longer had the feeling of being on a chair about to lose balance.
> 
> That's just one aspect to share; I think learning and growth is a continual process. And both kind of cool and kind of cringey to reflect back on elements of yourself that have changed. And don't get me wrong, I'm not downplaying what some have been through. I also agree that one doesn't really know what they'd do in certain scenarios until experiencing them. However, in the moment, I'm rolling with what we got.


I love his response to your 'threat'.

Calm, confident, no b.s...boundaries 101.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Before all of this, yes, I was emotionally attached during sex. I’ve always had the ability to turn it off, which I did throughout high school. He was the first and only person I ever emotionally attached to during sex. This is likely why I refuse to re establish that connection until I see he’s working on changing, because it would be a hurt that would send me into a dark place mentally and emotionally.


You asked me about what I was thinking when I brought up projection. The conversation moved on to deeper things, but I’ll throw this out if you’re still interested.

Early on, you seemed to be saying, for a given man, all kinds of sexual experience are Either/Or — either all his sexual experiences (lustful thoughts, porn, strip clubs and lap dances, or physical affairs — and sex with his wife) are all just physical, or they are all emotionally charged/bonding/connecting. That a given person can’t possibly feel different sorts of feelings doing any of a variety of sexual things, with (or imaging) a different or even the same partner.

I might have misunderstood you.

But, reading your quote above, I hope you agree it is quite possible for someone, even with their only partner ever, to feel emotional connection before/during/after sexual activity, and then at some other time from the same activity feel disconnected and the distance expand.

That says nothing about whether claims one makes about how he or she experienced whatever are accurate, or are motivated by lies to themselves or others. That says nothing about the wisdom or lack thereof of taking them at their word, or keeping your guard up or being completely vulnerable. It’s just an observation: it’s not really possible to know what is in another’s head. Projecting something into their head doesn’t keep you any safer. You can still keep yourself safe and act in your best assessment of self-interest while accepting the uncertainty, weighing heavily or not your best *guess* about what was going on inside of them. It is your birthright.

eta: Being charitable about what motivated their behavior can be an unhelpful complication too. You can wait a lifetime waiting for someone to address their demons/foo.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

PieceOfSky said:


> You asked me about what I was thinking when I brought up projection. The conversation moved on to deeper things, but I’ll throw this out if you’re still interested.
> 
> Early on, you seemed to be saying, for a given man, all kinds of sexual experience are Either/Or — either all his sexual experiences (lustful thoughts, porn, strip clubs and lap dances, or physical affairs — and six with his wife) are all just physical, or they are all emotionally charged/bonding/connecting. That a given person can’t possibly feel different sorts of feelings doing different sexual things, with different or even the same partner.
> 
> ...


Great point. The very fact that @MiaLancer69 can turn off her emotional connection during sex proves that it can be just sex with one person (stripper, porn star, etc) while being about the emotional connection with their wife.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

farsidejunky said:


> I love his response to your 'threat'.
> 
> Calm, confident, no b.s...boundaries 101.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


Yeah, I hadn't thought of it quite that way. I mean, it did catch me in the moment that he was right.

I guess that tone has kind of been there from the start. Including upon meeting at the club that first particular night and when he bounced next door. From my observations, particularly in more recent years, he's even more _congruent _(that word again!) in how he conducts himself across all aspects of daily life. There are some instances, unrelated to me, where I'm taken aback in his ability to assert his boundaries in such a way that seems so calm and easy. Yet that's also been a process of years in the making. Alongside recognizing he only has so many funks to give.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

If he demonstrates calm, confident, no b.s. in current interactions with me, does that equate to me being a crappy spouse in that moment then? I mean, does the need for that ever stop?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Great point. The very fact that @MiaLancer69 can turn off her emotional connection during sex proves that it can be just sex with one person (stripper, porn star, etc) while being about the emotional connection with their wife.


So now we should all have open marriages because sex is meaningless. 🙄

Pretty sure that isn’t what @MiaLancer69 meant. But now I know who you are. You guys were all upset until you figured out how to twist into “cheating is fine.”


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

heartsbeating said:


> If he demonstrates calm, confident, no b.s. in current interactions with me, does that equate to me being a crappy spouse in that moment then? I mean, does the need for that ever stop?


It never stops, but that doesn't mean it happens often.

ETA: I just realized I left off what could clearly be the harder answer to hear... completely unanswered...lol.

No, I don't think you're a bad spouse in the moment. A bad spouse would not be able to acknowledge what you did in the previous two posts.

A humble apology goes a long ways.



Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

farsidejunky said:


> It never stops, but that doesn't mean it happens often.
> 
> ETA: I just realized I left off what could clearly be the harder answer to hear... completely unanswered...lol.
> 
> ...


It didn't occur to me about the part that you left off.

I was considering the initial response still. And part of that thought process was that it sounds exhausting! Why would anyone sign up to this stuff?  I kid, ofcourse. Then the other thought was that when it's just cemented into part of who you are, it wouldn't be exhausting. Almost kind of like an inner philosophy occurring or something.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Does a bear sh*t in the woods? 🤣
> 
> Think about a topic. Any topic. If it is something above the level of mundane, we don't talk about it.
> 
> We NEVER talk.


How do you connect? I mean, what makes up the relationship between you?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> TM, I’m gonna ask you, as a random internet stranger, to not refer to yourself as unattractive or disgusting. I worry that you think about yourself in this way and then possibly project that to your husband.


I've been noodling on this for a while, trying to figure out how to respond. I want to believe you meant well, I'm just not sure what to say. I didn't want to not acknowledge it because it seemed like you were trying to be nice, and I appreciate that. Sorry this isn't more eloquent and profound. You really stumped me with this one.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

heartsbeating said:


> How do you connect? I mean, what makes up the relationship between you?


😔

We don't. 

I get glimpses of who she was from time to time. That's it. 

This is going to be a very difficult year for her. Can won't be kicked down the road again. She has to make a choice. Me or her trauma.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Great point. The very fact that @MiaLancer69 can turn off her emotional connection during sex proves that it can be just sex with one person (stripper, porn star, etc) while being about the emotional connection with their wife.


True, but not my main point, and likely to be misunderstood…




TexasMom1216 said:


> So now we should all have open marriages because sex is meaningless. 🙄
> 
> Pretty sure that isn’t what @MiaLancer69 meant. But now I know who you are. You guys were all upset until you figured out how to twist into “cheating is fine.”


Absolutely not what I was saying.


Cheating is not fine in my book. I hope it is not in Mia’s.

My point is, it is not possible to truly know what’s is in another’s head, why someone does what he or she does, and how they feel about it before/during/after.

IME, it’s better to accept the reality that there is uncertainty, and pay attention to what they are actually doing and whether that crosses a line for you.

I wouldn’t want anyone to tolerate a boundary crossed.

Not that it’s my business (other than Mia brought it up), but I think she should not tolerate her husbands cheating and strip club activities and awful talk. She should choose better for herself, and she might discover there are men worthy of admiration, respect, and being vulnerable with.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> To some that is going to sound extremely harsh. I'd love for those people to live a day in my shoes.


It's not harsh. It's survival. You're going through all of this with her and for her. You're traumatized too. It has to be really hard to watch someone you love go through something and want to help and not be able to.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I've been noodling on this for a while, trying to figure out how to respond. I want to believe you meant well, I'm just not sure what to say. I didn't want to not acknowledge it because it seemed like you were trying to be nice, and I appreciate that. Sorry this isn't more eloquent and profound. You really stumped me with this one.


I meant well by it. 

I personally didnt want to see you beat yourself up any more. 

But that is my perception. And I am an internet stranger. Simply reading your words shows me that you have a lot more worth than what it appears you give yourself.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

PieceOfSky said:


> Not that it’s my business (other than Mia brought it up), but I think she should not tolerate her husbands cheating and strip club activities and awful talk.


I don't think she should either. But I understand what she's saying, and I'm a little jealous that she can shut herself off that way and still enjoy sex. It's no picnic constantly waiting for that shoe to drop.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

heartsbeating said:


> It didn't occur to me about the part that you left off.
> 
> I was considering the initial response still. And part of that thought process was that it sounds exhausting! Why would anyone sign up to this stuff?  I kid, ofcourse. Then the other thought was that when it's just cemented into part of who you are, it wouldn't be exhausting. Almost kind of like an inner philosophy occurring or something.


Boundaries are exhausting at first, especially when you're not used to asserting them.

But as I said in the post about Batman, the calm manner in which he delivered it was what mattered almost more than anything.

When people first learn they have to assert boundaries, they have a tendency to get angry with those who test them. Really, they have nobody to point that anger at but themselves for allowing it to get to that point. Projection at it's finest.

The more nonchalant the delivery of the boundary statement, the more effective the impact. It's just the opposite with anger. 

That said, I don't necessarily think it's a lifetime thing for many. Part of the appeal of my wife is that she challenges me to be better. Not everyone values that in a spouse. 

But...sometimes we all get a little to big for our britches, and need to be gently (or not so gently) reminded.


Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

heartsbeating said:


> I personally felt a shift within my own part of our dynamic when I knew I'd completely let down any forms of protective walls or defensive patterns that I'd formed prior to meeting him. When I got to that point, I started to feel more (ready for the word).... _congruent. _*And it felt freeing*.


I'm sure it does feel freeing. It sounds great. I'm happy for you that you can do that.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

TexasMom1216 said:


> So now we should all have open marriages because sex is meaningless. 🙄
> 
> Pretty sure that isn’t what @MiaLancer69 meant. But now I know who you are. You guys were all upset until you figured out how to twist into “cheating is fine.”


Yeah, definitely not what I meant, at all. ETA: totally thought this was a different thread at first 😅


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Great point. The very fact that @MiaLancer69 can turn off her emotional connection during sex proves that it can be just sex with one person (stripper, porn star, etc) while being about the emotional connection with their wife.





BigDaddyNY said:


> Great point. The very fact that @MiaLancer69 can turn off her emotional connection during sex proves that it can be just sex with one person (stripper, porn star, etc) while being about the emotional connection with their wife.


ah, I see, I misunderstood your remark when reading from TMs comment. Sure, they can but here is where the difference lies. I disconnect from sex solely to make my marriage work. I’m doing it because I love my spouse and only my spouse. I’m not going out and sleeping with random people, saying it means nothing, then turning around and demanding that connection in from a faithful partner. If a person is disconnecting with multiple people, then it’s usually safe to assume it’s because they find the act completely meaningless, therefore are lying when stating “it’s meaningful with my partner.”


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> If a person is disconnecting with multiple people, then it’s usually safe to assume it’s because they find the act completely meaningless, therefore are lying when stating “it’s meaningful with my partner.”


Thank you, eloquently put. But you were absolutely correct, they will twist anything to justify cheating. We saw it before as that guy twisted and twirled his way out of "the only reason men cheat is women get old and fat."


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I'm sure it does feel freeing. It sounds great. I'm happy for you that you can do that.


I just wanted to add, some of these concepts (and I'm not referring to trauma) can sound simplistic in type. The reality is that it usually involves wading through one's own crap and then challenging oneself to alter the way one goes about things in life. It's not an instant change. I'm not suggesting that you personally haven't done or are doing this, by the way. This is a general thought. To me, most learning if we want change to occur is usually pretty icky to go through when one is going through the process of it, until it starts to get easier... and then it's just more of a continual that becomes less confronting. Often I think it may feel 'easier' to stay stuck in our default mode of being, even though it may be doing us a disservice in the long-run.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Thank you, eloquently put. But you were absolutely correct, they will twist anything to justify cheating. We saw it before as that guy twisted and twirled his way out of "the only reason men cheat is women get old and fat."



Who said that? I know you are creating your own crap to suit your own agenda, but please find that quote you posted and put a name on it...

And while you are at it, find a single post where l advocate someone cheat on a woman because she can't bother taking care of herself..

It's ok. I'll wait.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

hamadryad said:


> Who said that? I know you are creating your own crap to suit your own agenda, but please find that quote you posted and put a name on it...
> 
> And while you are at it, find a single post where l advocate someone cheat on a woman because she can't bother taking care of herself..
> 
> It's ok. I'll wait.


Aw come on, man, calm down. You did twist and twirl your way out of it and turned it into a supportive conversation about her not tolerating mistreatment, while working in a long discussion about how fit and hot you are, and what an amazing catch you are, if only there existed a woman worthy of your glory. Learn to take yourself a bit less seriously. (I know, I know, pot, kettle, but I'm really trying here)


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

PieceOfSky said:


> You asked me about what I was thinking when I brought up projection. The conversation moved on to deeper things, but I’ll throw this out if you’re still interested.
> 
> Early on, you seemed to be saying, for a given man, all kinds of sexual experience are Either/Or — either all his sexual experiences (lustful thoughts, porn, strip clubs and lap dances, or physical affairs — and sex with his wife) are all just physical, or they are all emotionally charged/bonding/connecting. That a given person can’t possibly feel different sorts of feelings doing any of a variety of sexual things, with (or imaging) a different or even the same partner.
> 
> ...


Because love. I do it from necessity, not selfish gain. I do it to preserve. I couldn’t imagine the evil it would take to disconnect from sexual acts just to hurt someone I love. Would you consider cheating a necessity? Would you say it’s ok to disconnect from sex to sleep with someone else, then place meaning on it hours later? My husband has not physically cheated on me, but I do find it hard to believe that a person can disconnect from sex to watch porn, then reconnect during sex. In fact, I can see the disconnect in his own eyes during sex. He doesn’t try to hide that he’s a million miles away. So, no, I believe it’s quite impossible to disconnect because you’re purposely doing something that’s hurting the one you love…then turn around and reconnect with them. The guilt won’t allow it.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Thank you, eloquently put. But you were absolutely correct, they will twist anything to justify cheating. We saw it before as that guy twisted and twirled his way out of "the only reason men cheat is women get old and fat."


I feel like I'm reading different posts to you and the other TAM member.

I didn't perceive his posts the way that you both have. Especially initially, until it got a bit sling-matchy. How I perceived it is that he's all-in with a relationship and that's what he wants in his spouse too. Part of that is remaining attractive to one another. To me, he was balancing both sides of the equation. And that he questioned why the other member was willing to put up with what she has relayed as an issue for her. Although, I also get that she is saying it's not such an issue for her and she has compartmentalized and is waiting for her spouse to sort himself out. That's my take anyway.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Aw come on, man, calm down. You did twist and twirl your way out of it and turned it into a supportive conversation about her not tolerating mistreatment, while working in a long discussion about how fit and hot you are, and what an amazing catch you are, if only there existed a woman worthy of your glory. Learn to take yourself a bit less seriously. (I know, I know, pot, kettle, but I'm really trying here)


Wrong.

You're the ONE twisting sh!t around. Again. Find one single post where I said I am "hot" lol. Never happened. Because I would never characterize myself that way.

I'm not afraid to say what I say but cut the sh!t with dreaming up garbage to suit your own agenda

It's lame AF..


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Funny enough, that’s not at all how it usually is. Most men go into a marriage with a porn issue, ask any man…they didn’t just randomly start watching it after marriage.
> 
> actually, I am quite a positive, upbeat, and bubbly person, lol. I’m not one that leans toward negativity. I try to see the good in all situations, some situations don’t have any good to see, though. Still, I’m a beautiful woman who is supportive, attentive, driven, and loyal. I certainly don’t see myself as someone unworthy or someone to be disregarded.
> 
> ...


I've still only skim-read the thread, yet you do raise some interesting things here.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

hamadryad said:


> Wrong.
> 
> You're the ONE twisting sh!t around. Again. Find one single post where I said I am "hot" lol. Never happened. Because I would never characterize myself that way.
> 
> ...


Get those points in. You'll be in the popular crowd in no time. 🤣 🤣 If that wasn't you who said that, who are you defending?


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

heartsbeating said:


> I feel like I'm reading different posts to you and the other TAM member.
> 
> I didn't perceive his posts the way that you both have. Especially initially, until it got a bit sling-matchy. How I perceived it is that he's all-in with a relationship and that's what he wants in his spouse too. Part of that is remaining attractive to one another. To me, he was balancing both sides of the equation. And that he questioned why the other member was willing to put up with what she has relayed as an issue for her. Although, I also get that she is saying it's not such an issue for her and she has compartmentalized and is waiting for her spouse to sort himself out. That's my take anyway.


While attraction is important, in his original reply, he did state that men typically do this because the woman has let herself go. That’s where our take comes from, which was further assumed when he made his 2nd reply. Now, personally, I’ve never let myself go in marriage, unless you consider the time I gained an extra 10lbs during pregnancy and didn’t lose it until my daughter was 6 months old. Thus, showing that it’s not from a woman letting herself go. Everyone is entitled to their preferences. I believe it’s important to make those known before marriage, that way you’re compatible. So for him, he’d do best to find a woman that puts high priority on her appearance. Whereas, some men and women do care about appearance as much as they value personality. I couldn’t careless about a man’s muscles or how he looks or what he wears. I care more about personality. Looks fade. Clothing changes with age. But a guy that can make me laugh when I’m about to cry, a guy that picks up my favorite dessert for no reason other than he knows I love it, or the guy that fills my cars gas tank so I don’t have to wake up an extra 30 minutes early…that’s someone that I can make a life with.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Laugh all you want, all you are doing is making a complete dope of yourself....


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

heartsbeating said:


> I feel like I'm reading different posts to you and the other TAM member.


Nothing happens in a vacuum, there's a trend. He also called her a "cold fish" and said some other pretty ugly things to her. As you can see, he's pretty sensitive about it and takes himself very seriously.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

hamadryad said:


> IME, most guys resort to porn and infidelity, etc, because their wives either pulled some bait and switch crap on them, or decided once they had a ring on that they no longer cared about their appearance, what their husband needed or wanted, etc...


Yeah okay, I can see this might have both elements of truth for some, and not for others, while also making it simplistic. Accountability is required from both in the relationship.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Nothing happens in a vacuum, there's a trend. He also called her a "cold fish" and said some other pretty ugly things to her. As you can see, he's pretty sensitive about it and takes himself very seriously.


Lol. Nothing about anything I do here is "serious" ..

I know your story because I have seen it a million times. I feel sorry for you. Honestly. I really do.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

MiaLancer69 said:


> While attraction is important, in his original reply, he did state that men typically do this because the woman has let herself go. That’s where our take comes from, which was further assumed when he made his 2nd reply. Now, personally, I’ve never let myself go in marriage, unless you consider the time I gained an extra 10lbs during pregnancy and didn’t lose it until my daughter was 6 months old. Thus, showing that it’s not from a woman letting herself go. Everyone is entitled to their preferences. I believe it’s important to make those known before marriage, that way you’re compatible. So for him, he’d do best to find a woman that puts high priority on her appearance. Whereas, some men and women do care about appearance as much as they value personality. I couldn’t careless about a man’s muscles or how he looks or what he wears. I care more about personality. Looks fade. Clothing changes with age. But a guy that can make me laugh when I’m about to cry, a guy that picks up my favorite dessert for no reason other than he knows I love it, or the guy that fills my cars gas tank so I don’t have to wake up an extra 30 minutes early…that’s someone that I can make a life with.


I'm not into sling-matching on forums, and so feeling myself getting pulled in, decided I'm not about to go there now. I ought to have just kept out of it. I agree with you on deciphering compatibilities though. Appearance and physical attraction is important to me. Both mine and my husband's appearance has changed over time. Granted, I think he looks even more appealing now after 27 years together. And yes, I'm bias. That attraction though is absolutely linked to who he is as a person. That is to say, appearance doesn't override the types of considerations you mentioned either, and with character traits, personality and such. Another thing that I value is being myself around him. In all the complex awkward glory that entails, and vice verse.

I think you have sparked different thoughts in this thread.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

heartsbeating said:


> Yeah okay, I can see this might have both elements of truth for some, and not for others, while also making it simplistic. Accountability is required from both in the relationship.


Absolutely. This is where the issue arose. I don’t believe infidelity is permissible for any reason, especially something as superficial as looks. I’ve met plenty of women that are amazing moms, wives, and juggle multiple careers while also keeping a spotless house, they are happy and loving and all around really awesome women…but, they don’t put much weight on their appearance. I can’t imagine their husbands cheating on them based solely on looks, when they are literally Wonder Woman.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Absolutely. This is where the issue arose. I don’t believe infidelity is permissible for any reason, especially something as superficial as looks. I’ve met plenty of women that are amazing moms, wives, and juggle multiple careers while also keeping a spotless house, they are happy and loving and all around really awesome women…but, they don’t put much weight on their appearance. I can’t imagine their husbands cheating on them based solely on looks, when they are literally Wonder Woman.


It's all about values, really.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Does a bear sh*t in the woods? 🤣
> 
> Think about a topic. Any topic. If it is something above the level of mundane, we don't talk about it.
> 
> ...


I’m not a therapist, but after years of therapy, it sounds like she is an avoidant attachment style (my husband is too) and you are an anxious attachment style (I am). The only way to fix what’s going on is for her to push herself to have the conversations that she hates. Also, some advice for you, I find it easier to write down my concerns as if writing a letter. Then proof read them and rewrite it from a place of calm and understanding. That helped with our communication skills. A lot of times, he assumed my “talks” were meant to put him down, when I was just trying to understand a situation or remark. That’s because I let my emotions cloud reality. Once I had the time to step back and calm down, then present them in a new way, our conversations started flowing freely. It took a few months, but it helped a lot. Also, look up some conversation games for couples. Rather than bringing in the resentment at first, try something light hearted for a few weeks, then slowly bring up your concerns during those times. When she giggles about one of the questions, Say something like, “gosh, I love seeing you smile! Your laugh is contagious.” You’d be surprised how this might change her mind set toward discussing.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

One last thing, then I'm out.... when I wrote before about 'accountability from both' I did not mean/relate that to infidelity.

And from here, can the bar be raised back to engaging in constructive debate / exchange of ideas if needed? I guess I'll find out later.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> It's all about values, really.



If a romantic relationship(because that's what we are talking about here, right?) was "all about values" then maybe people should just find a person that helps the homeless, has perfect credit score and never got a parking ticket, and volunteers at the dog pound.....and leave it that...Don't worry what they look like or whether or not they are someone you want to share a bed with,....it's ALL about values...

Values are vital, but without attraction(yes, and sexual attraction) you don't have a romantic relationship...you maybe have a good friend, and maybe someone who you can count on for certain things.... Period...

Attraction and desire, just like a lot of other things in a marriage or relationship, needs to be cultivated...needs to be maintained...needs to be nurtured...Or you wind up like a lot of people on here, losing their minds because they can't figure out why they can't have that element in their marriage...

It's not "all about values"....sorry to inform you...


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

It's kind of gone off the rails but I think the conversations you're having on here have a lot of potential value, @MiaLancer69. I had honestly never understood the depth of some of what people are going through, I agree with @heartsbeating, let's get back to that. It's my fault, I tried to make a joke with someone who doesn't want to have any kind of conversation with me, and any joke at all was inappropriate, so I apologize for my part in derailing things.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

hamadryad said:


> If a romantic relationship(because that's what we are talking about here, right?) was "all about values" then maybe people should just find a person that helps the homeless, has perfect credit score and never got a parking ticket, and volunteers at the dog pound.....and leave it that...Don't worry what they look like or whether or not they are someone you want to share a bed with,....it's ALL about values...
> 
> Values are vital, but without attraction(yes, and sexual attraction) you don't have a romantic relationship...you maybe have a good friend, and maybe someone who you can count on for certain things.... Period...
> 
> ...


Attraction can come in many forms, though. Because of who my husband is, the person who I fell in love with, I am attracted to him no matter his change in clothing/weight/hairstyle, etc.. I am attracted to his being and that forms a physical attraction regardless of what a person looks like. When I met him, he was 6’2, skinny as a rail, and baby faced. He’s still 6’2, has dad bod, and has full on facial hair. He used to dress in loose jeans and baggy t-shirts, now he dresses in wranglers and cowboy boots. Wanna know something? I’m attracted to him now just as much as I was then…if not more. When you find that person, the one that touches your soul, attraction transcends the outward appearance. In fact, when you are attracted to their being, like a domino effect, it will cause the attraction to their appearance. That’s why, even in old age, people continue to have an attraction to their partner.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Attraction can come in many forms, though. Because of who my husband is, the person who I fell in love with, I am attracted to him no matter his change in clothing/weight/hairstyle, etc.. I am attracted to his being and that forms a physical attraction regardless of what a person looks like. When I met him, he was 6’2, skinny as a rail, and baby faced. He’s still 6’2, has dad bod, and has full on facial hair. He used to dress in loose jeans and baggy t-shirts, now he dresses in wranglers and cowboy boots. Wanna know something? I’m attracted to him now just as much as I was then…if not more. When you find that person, the one that touches your soul, attraction transcends the outward appearance. In fact, when you are attracted to their being, like a domino effect, it will cause the attraction to their appearance. That’s why, even in old age, people continue to have an attraction to their partner.


My favorite thing to do is make my husband laugh. I can still do it, 17 years later. He does it to me too, we laugh all the time. It's actually hard for me to admit that, it's very personal and makes me vulnerable in a way that makes me very nervous, because this is such a public and not entirely friendly place. But to your point, attraction isn't just physical for everyone. There is more to a person than just their looks for some people.


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## theloveofmylife (Jan 5, 2021)

Bulfrog1987 said:


> I really haven’t figured that part out yet. I think a deep part of me keeps hoping the manner in which he just constantly takes will stop.


It won't just happen on its own. You need to seriously put your foot down and stop letting him get away with treating you like this. Who does he think he is? You deserve so much better.

I don't know your whole story. Does he (or do you think he might) cheat?



Bulfrog1987 said:


> he’s joined a mens ministry that meets weekly and I keep Thinking he’ll bring something back from it but he never does.


Are you sure that's where he is going?



Bulfrog1987 said:


> Maybe he’s trying to drive me out? That’s crossed my mind.


If so, why would you want to stay? 

You deserve love and respect and mutual satisfaction. You have to make him treat you right. Stop doing all the giving. It never works, yet you're probably trying even harder now that he is treating you like this. Many fall into this trap, but you have to stand up for yourself, set boundaries, and enforce them.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

TexasMom1216 said:


> My favorite thing to do is make my husband laugh. I can still do it, 17 years later. He does it to me too, we laugh all the time. It's actually hard for me to admit that, it's very personal and makes me vulnerable in a way that makes me very nervous, because this is such a public and not entirely friendly place. But to your point, attraction isn't just physical for everyone. There is more to a person than just their looks for some people.


That’s wonderful that you both share that! It’s important for any relationship to have something deeply rooted, so it can withstand the test of time. You’re absolutely right! I learned to admire my own ability to love to someone from the inside out, rather than vice versa. While people in modern society have questioned me on doing so, I question why anyone wouldn’t want to experience it.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

theloveofmylife said:


> Many fall into this trap, but you have to stand up for yourself, set boundaries, and enforce them.


Sometimes it's not about hard, loud boundaries. It's about making a promise to yourself that you will be treated as you believe you deserve and then quietly following through on that promise. Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do is simply walk away. No drama, no noise. Just, "goodbye." It's simple, but it's certainly not easy. Sometimes it breaks your heart. But you will survive it and be better for it.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> While people in modern society have questioned me on doing so, I question why anyone wouldn’t want to experience it.


I wasn't always 50 years old. I was young once, and it wasn't exactly painful to look at me. 😉 No one understood why I chose to marry for love instead of money, looks and security. I know why and still think I made the right decision.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> I’m not a therapist, but after years of therapy, it sounds like she is an avoidant attachment style (my husband is too) and you are an anxious attachment style (I am). The only way to fix what’s going on is for her to push herself to have the conversations that she hates. Also, some advice for you, I find it easier to write down my concerns as if writing a letter. Then proof read them and rewrite it from a place of calm and understanding. That helped with our communication skills. A lot of times, he assumed my “talks” were meant to put him down, when I was just trying to understand a situation or remark. That’s because I let my emotions cloud reality. Once I had the time to step back and calm down, then present them in a new way, our conversations started flowing freely. It took a few months, but it helped a lot. Also, look up some conversation games for couples. Rather than bringing in the resentment at first, try something light hearted for a few weeks, then slowly bring up your concerns during those times. When she giggles about one of the questions, Say something like, “gosh, I love seeing you smile! Your laugh is contagious.” You’d be surprised how this might change her mind set toward discussing.


Lol. Are you psychic?

Yes. She is avoidant. Yes, I am anxious. 


Yes, I came to the same conclusion (with help from some amazing people on TAM) to write down what I need to say to help prevent bringing in the ugly resentment monster to our talks. 


Yes, I bought a bunch of conversation games. I've begged her to play. She's done it once. She gets anxious and upset with the most trivial of topics from these games. I told her to relax. It is just supposed to be fun. It'll be like we get to know each other all over again. Nope. She won't do it. I gave up after asking 10 times or so.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I wasn't always 50 years old. I was young once, and it wasn't exactly painful to look at me. 😉 No one understood why I chose to marry for love instead of money, looks and security. I know why and still think I made the right decision.


It's not painful to look at you NOW. 

I'm hoping you start looking in the mirror to tell yourself that. Maybe even say, "hmmmm, you look rather nice, TM. Really? Why thank you, TM". 😁


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Yes, I bought a bunch of conversation games. I've begged her to play. She's done it once. She gets anxious and upset with the most trivial of topics from these games. I told her to relax. It is just supposed to be fun. It'll be like we get to know each other all over again. Nope. She won't do it. I gave up after asking 10 times or so.


I will be deservedly flamed for suggesting this. If there is a history of which I am unaware, please accept my sincerest apologies, I do not mean to be insensitive, please believe I have good intentions (we all know where THAT road leads). 

I will stand toe to toe with a bear, I am not afraid to die for those I love, but emotional vulnerability sends me scurrying under the bed like a nervous cat. I have been known to imbibe and then I can relax a bit. Some productive conversations of a very sensitive nature that ended up helping our marriage on several fronts have happened when I was able to relax a bit. You want to watch out for dependencies on chemicals for emotional release because that can go badly. I am an odd duck, I've been through some stuff and it's made me... unique. But sometimes a social lubricant is just that, and it can help you open up in little bits.

Please don't be offended, I am honestly trying to help based on what has helped me.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> It's not painful to look at you NOW.
> 
> I'm hoping you start looking in the mirror to tell yourself that. Maybe even say, "hmmmm, you look rather nice, TM. Really? Why thank you, TM". 😁


That is kind of you.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Lol. Are you psychic?
> 
> Yes. She is avoidant. Yes, I am anxious.
> 
> ...


Haha! I sometimes feel like I am (it’s a trauma response, per my therapist…apparently being empathetic and an extroverted introvert are too 😅)

I’m glad you’ve found help on here!

It’s a bummer that she won’t play the games, though. What about a family game night? Just lightening the atmosphere might help. We were having a disagreement once, on a car ride home, when our daughter recommended we play a game.It was similar to eye spy, you pick a random site/scene/object, etc and give clues. It got interesting once I began to play…my husband began to see new things about me that he hadn’t realized… such as I have an eye for details. That new revelation made him curious to learn other things about me…so he slowly started asking me questions. Here and there, for months, he would ask random questions to see my response. Some with deep meaning and some that were silly. That game just sparked his curiosity.

It might not work, but if you’re willing I’d give it a try. Just find a game that requires some type of individualism.You might both learn something new about the other ☺


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Bulfrog1987 said:


> he’s joined a mens ministry that meets weekly


Watch out for this. Those are not friendly to women. This could actually be exacerbating the problems. 

It honestly sounds like you need some self confidence. You're all over the forum with this same pain. Take a deep breath, look at your life and decide what you can live with. Like my grandmother always said, "Do the best that you can for as long as you can, then save yourself."


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I will be deservedly flamed for suggesting this. If there is a history of which I am unaware, please accept my sincerest apologies, I do not mean to be insensitive, please believe I have good intentions (we all know where THAT road leads).
> 
> I will stand toe to toe with a bear, I am not afraid to die for those I love, but emotional vulnerability sends me scurrying under the bed like a nervous cat. I have been known to imbibe and then I can relax a bit. Some productive conversations of a very sensitive nature that ended up helping our marriage on several fronts have happened when I was able to relax a bit. You want to watch out for dependencies on chemicals for emotional release because that can go badly. I am an odd duck, I've been through some stuff and it's made me... unique. But sometimes a social lubricant is just that, and it can help you open up in little bits.
> 
> Please don't be offended, I am honestly trying to help based on what has helped me.


No offense taken. 

She gave up drinking about a year ago. I tried that too. 

She is..... she is my wife and I've never known any other woman. When she does set down her baggage, she can light up a room and warm my heart. She knows how to enjoy life , but it's like she chooses not to. 

I get emotional vulnerability is tough, but after 20 years of knowing that I'm about as rock solid as it gets? Gotta give me something here eventually. She keeps this up, she won't have anyone.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I get emotional vulnerability is tough, but after 20 years of knowing that I'm about as rock solid as it gets? Gotta give me something here eventually. She keeps this up, she won't have anyone.


My heart will break for her, because she has done it to herself. I can't imagine having a man standing there loving you and wanting to help you and not being grateful. I say that because my husband did it for me, and I tell you what, there is nothing like an alpha male to make a woman feel safe. I want so badly to believe she's trying, but if she's not, you need to save yourself.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Watch out for this. Those are not friendly to women. This could actually be exacerbating the problems.
> 
> It honestly sounds like you need some self confidence. You're all over the forum with this same pain. Take a deep breath, look at your life and decide what you can live with. Like my grandmother always said, "Do the best that you can for as long as you can, then save yourself."


It depends on the ministry, and the leadership, as to whether it is friendly to women or not. I have seen it go both ways. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> So now we should all have open marriages because sex is meaningless. 🙄
> 
> Pretty sure that isn’t what @MiaLancer69 meant. But now I know who you are. You guys were all upset until you figured out how to twist into “cheating is fine.”


That's a pretty twisted way to interrupt my comment, lol. The fact that someone can turn off emotions during sex, only means they can separate sex and emotions. @MiaLancer69 has proven that through her actions and change from emotional connection to no emotional connecting during sex with her husband. In no way did I mean to imply that makes cheating okay or makes strip clubs and porn okay if the other spouse isn't okay with that stuff. They are two separate things.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

BigDaddyNY said:


> That's a pretty twisted way to interrupt my comment, lol. The fact that someone can turn off emotions during sex, only means they can separate sex and emotions. @MiaLancer69 has proven that through her actions and change from emotional connection to no emotional connecting during sex with her husband. In no way did I mean to imply that makes cheating okay or makes strip clubs and porn okay if the other spouse isn't okay with that stuff. They are two separate things.


I believe, it also comes down to each individual. I had a childhood filled with sexual abuse, which gave me the ability to disconnect this way. As many others have stated, it’s not the “norm.” Its also not something that is done lightly nor at the drop of a hat. I can’t decide today to just turn that back on. I can decide to work toward it, but not automatically say, “I’m ready to connect during sex, so let’s turn it back on.” No, it takes weeks, sometimes months, to retrain the brain. So, no, it’s not possible to say, “I disconnected to watch porn or go to strip clubs, then 30 minutes later I have reconnected.” It doesn’t work like that. The disconnect itself might happen quicker, but one won’t reconnect that soon, even if they actually wanted to.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> ah, I see, I misunderstood your remark when reading from TMs comment. Sure, they can but here is where the difference lies. I disconnect from sex solely to make my marriage work. I’m doing it because I love my spouse and only my spouse. I’m not going out and sleeping with random people, saying it means nothing, then turning around and demanding that connection in from a faithful partner. If a person is disconnecting with multiple people, then it’s usually safe to assume it’s because they find the act completely meaningless, therefore are lying when stating “it’s meaningful with my partner.”


I agree that saying it is only sex in the way you describe here is just a way to discount your feelings as being invalid. He is violating one of your boundaries and is using "it is only sex" as an excuse. 

I was making the point that, based on your own experience, the same person can have emotional connection during one sexual encounter, but not during another. You can even do it within sexual encounters with the same person. However, your previous comments seemed to say this is not possible. It is either an all or nothing scenario. 

Here's where I was going with that. You turn off the emotional connection during sex with your husband and he says strippers/porn is just sex, no emotional connection. Why does that mean to you that he finds all acts of sex, even with you meaningless, but your sex with him still has meaning even though is "only sex" because you emotionally detach? It seems like you are apply different standard to yourself and to your husband. Or are you saying that sex with your husband is meaningless to you since you have turned off the emotional connection?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Because love. I do it from necessity, not selfish gain. I do it to preserve. I couldn’t imagine the evil it would take to disconnect from sexual acts just to hurt someone I love. Would you consider cheating a necessity? Would you say it’s ok to disconnect from sex to sleep with someone else, then place meaning on it hours later? My husband has not physically cheated on me, but* I do find it hard to believe that a person can disconnect from sex to watch porn, then reconnect during sex.* In fact, I can see the disconnect in his own eyes during sex. He doesn’t try to hide that he’s a million miles away. So, no, I believe it’s quite impossible to disconnect because you’re purposely doing something that’s hurting the one you love…then turn around and reconnect with them. The guilt won’t allow it.


That bolded section is completely can't be true. That is what you are capable of. You say you can turn emotional connection during sex on and off, why can't someone else? I'm not trying to find an excuse for cheating or violating a spouse's boundary. There is no valid excuse for that. However, that doesn't change the fact that what you are saying is not congruent with you own actions.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I agree that saying it is only sex in the way you describe here is just a way to discount your feelings as being invalid. He is violating one of your boundaries and is using "it is only sex" as an excuse.
> 
> I was making the point that, based on your own experience, the same person can have emotional connection during one sexual encounter, but not during another. You can even do it within sexual encounters with the same person. However, your previous comments seemed to say this is not possible. It is either an all or nothing scenario.
> 
> Here's where I was going with that. You turn off the emotional connection during sex with your husband and he says strippers/porn is just sex, no emotional connection. Why does that mean to you that he finds all acts of sex, even with you meaningless, but your sex with him still has meaning even though is "only sex" because you emotionally detach? It seems like you are apply different standard to yourself and to your husband. Or are you saying that sex with your husband is meaningless to you since you have turned off the emotional connection?


Because sex is either one or the other. Sexual acts are linked. There is no way around that. I’m just giving this as an example, say your SO went and slept with someone else and said it meant nothing. Then told you, sex does mean something. Which is it? Did it mean nothing or something? When disconnecting in sex, in my younger years, it’s not as though I connected with one partner and not the other…no, I disconnected with all sexual acts. When I met my husband, I built up to that connection with him. When I disconnected it didn’t happen overnight, with each hurt I disconnected a little more each time. So it is, for me, either meaningful or meaningless. Right now, it’s just sex, a means to an end. When you’re connected, there’s no reason to search for meaningless connection.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

BigDaddyNY said:


> That bolded section is completely can't be true. That is what you are capable of. You say you can turn emotional connection during sex on and off, why can't someone else? I'm not trying to find an excuse for cheating or violating a spouse's boundary. There is no valid excuse for that. However, that doesn't change the fact that what you are saying is not congruent with you own actions.


As stated, I can’t just turn it off and on at the drop of a hat. So, I can’t be connected, then decide to disconnect for a few hours, then reconnect a few moments later. That’s where I think you’re assuming that this is a button that is pressed and automatic. It is not. It takes time to lose the connection and more time to re-establish.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Because sex is either one or the other. Sexual acts are linked. There is no way around that. I’m just giving this as an example, say your SO went and slept with someone else and said it meant nothing. Then told you, sex does mean something. Which is it? Did it mean nothing or something? When disconnecting in sex, in my younger years, it’s not as though I connected with one partner and not the other…no, I disconnected with all sexual acts. When I met my husband, I built up to that connection with him. When I disconnected it didn’t happen overnight, with each hurt I disconnected a little more each time. So it is, for me, either meaningful or meaningless. Right now, it’s just sex, a means to an end. When you’re connected, there’s no reason to search for meaningless connection.





MiaLancer69 said:


> As stated, I can’t just turn it off and on at the drop of a hat. So, I can’t be connected, then decide to disconnect for a few hours, then reconnect a few moments later. That’s where I think you’re assuming that this is a button that is pressed and automatic. It is not. It takes time to lose the connection and more time to re-establish.


Yep, I get you now. It isn't quite a switch for you. You need time to move from one state to the other, which does align with what you are saying about a cheating spouse. 

I do think turning emotions on and off may be more common than you think though. I've only had one sexual partner in my life, so I personally can't comprehend how you separate the two, but there are lots of people in open marriages and swinging. I don't know what is in their heads, so I don't know if they completely turn of the emotional connections, but they definitely have a different connection with their spouse versus a different sexual partner. Now it could be that you are 100% correct and they really only see sex as an act, no emotional connection and they are just saying they have an emotional connection with their spouse. 

You say you can sense the lack of attachment from your husband during sex. Does he know you sense that? Have you told him that you think his porn use and other actions are causing that detachment?


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

BigDaddyNY said:


> That bolded section is completely can't be true. That is what you are capable of. You say you can turn emotional connection during sex on and off, why can't someone else? I'm not trying to find an excuse for cheating or violating a spouse's boundary. There is no valid excuse for that. However, that doesn't change the fact that what you are saying is not congruent with you own actions.


While people may very well delude themselves into thinking they can turn it on and off so quickly, it’s just that, a delusion. It’s a way for people to continue in their activities without the guilt or shame. In reality, they are disconnected from it all, as I was before and am now. The difference is, I know it SHOULD mean something. Even when disconnected, I know that it’s an intimate act that should have meaning.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> *That's a pretty twisted way to interrupt my comment, lol.* The fact that someone can turn off emotions during sex, only means they can separate sex and emotions. @MiaLancer69 has proven that through her actions and change from emotional connection to no emotional connecting during sex with her husband. In no way did I mean to imply that makes cheating okay or makes strip clubs and porn okay if the other spouse isn't okay with that stuff. They are two separate things.


Don't feel bad, buddy...

She just fabricates, embellishes, takes anything you post out of context, flat out lies, etc..It's not just you... 😉


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Yep, I get you now. It isn't quite a switch for you. You need time to move from one state to the other, which does align with what you are saying about a cheating spouse.
> 
> I do think turning emotions on and off may be more common than you think though. I've only had one sexual partner in my life, so I personally can't comprehend how you separate the two, but there are lots of people in open marriages and swinging. I don't know what is in their heads, so I don't know if they completely turn of the emotional connections, but they definitely have a different connection with their spouse versus a different sexual partner. Now it could be that you are 100% correct and they really only see sex as an act, no emotional connection and they are just saying they have an emotional connection with their spouse.
> 
> You say you can sense the lack of attachment from your husband during sex. Does he know you sense that? Have you told him that you think his porn use and other actions are causing that detachment?


I dabbled in poly during my younger years and I can say that the act of sex was just that, sex. You can care about someone, yes, but there is not emotional connection during the sex with your SO. If there were, you’d never do it again (I know because my husband once asked about a threesome and I told him that was not something I would be willing to do with him, as we were connected during sex at that time) when you’re connected, you don’t want to share that person with anyone else. While they might have that emotional connection to a person outside of the bedroom, they don’t have it during sex.

I have mentioned it to him, which led to him saying I was just jealous or insecure (I’m a very secure person and don’t see myself as the jealous type…if something means nothing then what would be the reason for jealousy?). He said, “this sounds like a you problem, not a me problem.” So, I left it at that and allowed the disconnect to happen for me.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> As stated, I can’t just turn it off and on at the drop of a hat. So, I can’t be connected, then decide to disconnect for a few hours, then reconnect a few moments later. That’s where I think you’re assuming that this is a button that is pressed and automatic. It is not. It takes time to lose the connection and more time to re-establish.


Fair enough.

in your situation with your husband visiting strip clubs, I can understand your view of porn.

for me, I can disconnect from porn. My wife gets first dibs every time. I prefer my wife to anything else. I still prefer my wife when she offers to have terrible sex.

if she rejects me, I will use porn. Sex is both emotional and physical for me. I have a very high drive. I want my wife multiple times a day. She does not want it every day. My wife could shut down porn use in a heartbeat. Just come to me. It really is that simple.

I don’t see porn use as a problem until it is being used in place of the spouse. That I don’t agree with - and I don’t agree with strip clubs and touching other women at all


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> I dabbled in poly during my younger years and I can say that the act of sex was just that, sex. You can care about someone, yes, but there is not emotional connection during the sex with your SO. If there were, you’d never do it again (I know because my husband once asked about a threesome and I told him that was not something I would be willing to do with him, as we were connected during sex at that time) when you’re connected, you don’t want to share that person with anyone else. While they might have that emotional connection to a person outside of the bedroom, they don’t have it during sex.
> 
> I have mentioned it to him, which led to him saying I was just jealous or insecure (I’m a very secure person and don’t see myself as the jealous type…if something means nothing then what would be the reason for jealousy?). He said, “this sounds like a you problem, not a me problem.” So, I left it at that and allowed the disconnect to happen for me.


Its too bad that he gaslights you instead of actually hearing and addressing your concerns. 

I agree that I would never want to share my wife with anyone else and I only ever want to give myself to my wife. I think I'm coming at this from a different angle though. You say because they have sex with someone else then all sex for them lacks emotional connection. For me, I don't think I could completely turn off the emotional connection that comes with sex. I don't want that emotional connection with anyone other than my wife and I certainly don't want her having that emotional connection with someone else. Porn I'm not in agreement. Although I no longer care for porn I have used it a lot in the past. My wife knows BTW. It was mainly an outlet while I traveled, which at one point was quite often. I don't feel like it ever did harm to the emotional connection I have with my wife.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Its too bad that he gaslights you instead of actually hearing and addressing your concerns.
> 
> I agree that I would never want to share my wife with anyone else and I only ever want to give myself to my wife. I think I'm coming at this from a different angle though. You say because they have sex with someone else then all sex for them lacks emotional connection. For me, I don't think I could completely turn off the emotional connection that comes with sex. I don't want that emotional connection with anyone other than my wife and I certainly don't want her having that emotional connection with someone else. Porn I'm not in agreement. Although I no longer care for porn I have used it a lot in the past. My wife knows BTW. It was mainly an outlet while I traveled, which at one point was quite often. I don't feel like it ever did harm to the emotional connection I have with my wife.


Might I ask you and Laterilus79, how you can view a strip club and porn differently? Porn is still viewing of other women naked, is it not? It’s still fantasizing about being with someone else. Without the lap dance added in, I can’t see how one is any different than the other. Some would also argue that since it’s all fantasy, that a lap dance is no different either. That’s where it makes no sense to me. Why would I need or want to imagine or actually be with someone else if the connection were there? It puzzles me. I suppose I see this quite differently. For me, the idea of needing or wanting someone else sexually would mean I am not getting my needs met. So the idea that one can get their needs met and still seek more, is baffling.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> I dabbled in poly


This is where the mind-F really comes into play. I can firmly understand your stance on being completely dissociated with sex (all or none). The poly folks here would disagree. They have emotional bonding with their spouse when they have sex but somehow dissociate with they go and have sex with others. I'll never be able to wrap my mind around that. It's like, "monday through friday, my spouse and I have very emotionally bonding sex. It's a connection like no other..... then I go and have non-emotional sex with others on saturday and sunday.". 

To each their own.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> in your situation with your husband visiting strip clubs, I can understand your view of porn.
> 
> ...


His porn use was his gateway into the strip clubs. He admitted that the porn was no longer enough, thus the clubs.


LATERILUS79 said:


> This is where the mind-F really comes into play. I can firmly understand your stance on being completely dissociated with sex (all or none). The poly folks here would disagree. They have emotional bonding with their spouse when they have sex but somehow dissociate with they go and have sex with others. I'll never be able to wrap my mind around that. It's like, "monday through friday, my spouse and I have very emotionally bonding sex. It's a connection like no other..... then I go and have non-emotional sex with others on saturday and sunday.".
> 
> To each their own.


I’d imagine they grew up in a childhood far worse than mine and mine was rough. Though, for me, I see it as similar to dissociating from porn but not your spouse. Perhaps, I’m just an odd duck, haha. But, to be able to fantasize about someone else while completely connected in every way to someone…I can’t understand it. I’ve tried to…but I can’t lol 😅 so, yep, I’m an “all or nothing” kinda girl.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Might I ask you and Laterilus79, how you can view a strip club and porn differently? Porn is still viewing of other women naked, is it not? It’s still fantasizing about being with someone else. Without the lap dance added in, I can’t see how one is any different than the other. Some would also argue that since it’s all fantasy, that a lap dance is no different either. That’s where it makes no sense to me. Why would I need or want to imagine or actually be with someone else if the connection were there? It puzzles me. I suppose I see this quite differently. For me, the idea of needing or wanting someone else sexually would mean I am not getting my needs met. So the idea that one can get their needs met and still seek more, is baffling.


Want to know something nuts? 

I prefer watching the porn that are amateur. The couples that don't show their faces. I don't want to see faces. In addition, I look for women that have a similar body to my wife's.... so I can imagine that I'm having sex with my wife. 

like I said, it would end immediately. All my wife needs to do is not reject me. It is completely within her own power if she wants. In addition, my wife prefers for it to be this way. She says if I didn't watch porn, I would ask her 4 times a day instead of just once a day. If it really did bother her, she knows she can come and talk to me any time. ANY. TIME. I think I've made it clear that I am more than willing to talk. 

Strip clubs and getting lap dances is "personal". It's not just viewing people on a screen. It's an interaction with another person. I look at cam girls the same way. It is an interaction.

Like I said, sex is physical and emotional for me. I have a very high drive and I want that mechanical release. I haven't looked at porn in 3 days. My wife has had sex with me 3 days in a row. It is not a coincidence.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Might I ask you and Laterilus79, how you can view a strip club and porn differently? Porn is still viewing of other women naked, is it not? It’s still fantasizing about being with someone else. Without the lap dance added in, I can’t see how one is any different than the other. Some would also argue that since it’s all fantasy, that a lap dance is no different either. That’s where it makes no sense to me. Why would I need or want to imagine or actually be with someone else if the connection were there? It puzzles me. I suppose I see this quite differently. For me, the idea of needing or wanting someone else sexually would mean I am not getting my needs met. So the idea that one can get their needs met and still seek more, is baffling.


Also, I can see your point here. It does make logical sense.

I won't defend porn use. Doesn't matter if someone destroys me in a logical argument. I'm going to look at it anyway. Best I can say is that it feels way different than going to see a woman live and touching her.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Want to know something nuts?
> 
> I prefer watching the porn that are amateur. The couples that don't show their faces. I don't want to see faces. In addition, I look for women that have a similar body to my wife's.... so I can imagine that I'm having sex with my wife.
> 
> ...


If she’s ok with it and it works for you, that’s great. However, with my husband, that’s definitely not the case. He has used porn to the point that he would rather use it than have sex most nights, because he doesn’t want a connection. That’s why I say, it’s not fair to ask a spouse for the connection that the person won’t give in return.


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Want to know something nuts?
> 
> I prefer watching the porn that are amateur. The couples that don't show their faces. I don't want to see faces. In addition, I look for women that have a similar body to my wife's.... so I can imagine that I'm having sex with my wife.
> 
> ...


In the bold, you state physical and emotional. Now, I’m not saying this is use, so please don’t take it that way, but this is something I’ve heard from my parents when they cheated. Sex can be just physical and not emotional. I had sex with that person but loved your mom/dad. Perhaps that’s where my views on all or nothing come from. Because I can’t imagine loving someone and being able to do something that isn’t loving at all.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> Might I ask you and Laterilus79, how you can view a strip club and porn differently? Porn is still viewing of other women naked, is it not? It’s still fantasizing about being with someone else. Without the lap dance added in, I can’t see how one is any different than the other. Some would also argue that since it’s all fantasy, that a lap dance is no different either. That’s where it makes no sense to me. Why would I need or want to imagine or actually be with someone else if the connection were there? It puzzles me. I suppose I see this quite differently. For me, the idea of needing or wanting someone else sexually would mean I am not getting my needs met. So the idea that one can get their needs met and still seek more, is baffling.


I'll be honest, it is somewhat arbitrary, but at the same time it is clear in my mind

The strip club involves a real person that is within reach. It is real and in your face. You can actually have a back and forth exchange of words, expressions and maybe even touch, and maybe even with enough money you could take one home with you, lol. In my mind that is vastly different than porn which is all in my head. There is zero possibility of any kind of physical interaction or connection. When using porn I didn't typically fantasize about having sex with the person in the video, I fantasized about doing the things going on in the scene with my wife. That is why I avoided anything that was degrading to the female or something like cuckolding or multiple men with one woman. I sought out porn that fit with what I wanted to do with my wife. 

All this would be out the window if my wife said she wasn't comfortable with it. She had no issue with it so long as I wasn't using it in place of being with her. As I said, I used it mostly when away from her, so it wasn't taking anything from her. That said, I stopped because I started using it more (out of boredom mainly) and I felt it was starting to affect our sex life, but it had nothing to do with our emotional connection.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> If she’s ok with it and it works for you, that’s great. However, with my husband, that’s definitely not the case. He has used porn to the point that he would rather use it than have sex most nights, because he doesn’t want a connection. That’s why I say, it’s not fair to ask a spouse for the connection that the person won’t give in return.


See, that is an issue with him specifically. He appears to have an escalating addiction to sexual arousal. That isn't universally true for all men. What he is doing is much different than a man who was turned down or can't have sex with their partner, so they use porn to help get sexual relief. Your husband is replacing you with porn and strippers. I wouldn't want to be connected to that either.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> If she’s ok with it and it works for you, that’s great. However, with my husband, that’s definitely not the case. He has used porn to the point that he would rather use it than have sex most nights, because he doesn’t want a connection. That’s why I say, it’s not fair to ask a spouse for the connection that the person won’t give in return.


This is where I see the problem with porn use. Can't choose it over the spouse. Nope. That signifies a problem to me. 

Back during our HB time, my wife would enjoy playing a joke on me and "reject" me when I wanted her BAD. Then she would come over to "interrupt" me. 😂 I have very fond memories of this. These are some of my favorite times. 

In addition, when my wife can really shut off her demons for a little bit, we will watch it together to get some ideas of things we want to do. I've also looked in her search history before and seen where she will watch it herself. She will get herself amped up at times and then come and find me. 


Again, if there really was a problem here, she can come and talk to me any time. I welcome it. I want it. I desire for her to talk to me instead of avoiding everything. 


It's funny; I tell her about TAM all the time. I tell her about the people I meet here and talk to. I tell her that my computer/phone/tablet is open at all times. I don't log out. Feel free to take a look. See what I post about. She says no. I say, "You know I talk about you, right? You know I share very detailed information about our lives, right?". She says she understands and doesn't want to "infringe" upon my space, and that is what I find so damn funny. I want interaction with my wife so bad that I'd be more than happy if it turned into a negative interaction, just to get a damn response. I'd love for her to come to me some day and say, "You told these strangers THAT?!". 

Why yes I did wife. Would you like to talk about it?


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> See, that is an issue with him specifically. He appears to have an escalating addiction to sexual arousal. That isn't universally true for all men. What he is doing is much different than a man who was turned down or can't have sex with their partner, so they use porn to help get sexual relief. Your husband is replacing you with porn and strippers. I wouldn't want to be connected to that either.


As per usual, BD helps with the good words to explain stuff.


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## theloveofmylife (Jan 5, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> No drama, no noise. Just, "goodbye." It's simple, but it's certainly not easy. Sometimes it breaks your heart. But you will survive it and be better for it.


Yep, but I don't think she's there yet. Maybe taking steps will get her there. It just makes me sad to see anyone being treated so badly.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> In the bold, you state physical and emotional. Now, I’m not saying this is use, so please don’t take it that way, but this is something I’ve heard from my parents when they cheated. Sex can be just physical and not emotional. I had sex with that person but loved your mom/dad. Perhaps that’s where my views on all or nothing come from. Because I can’t imagine loving someone and being able to do something that isn’t loving at all.


You have a very good point here. I can't refute it. 

What I can say is this: I'm not going out to physically touch another woman. I've only ever slept with my wife. I'm not lying to her about what I'm doing. I'm not sneaking around. I'm not making an emotional connection with another woman. I'm not stealing time from my wife or my children to go spend time with another woman. 

I can't argue against your point. The best I can do is say that I see it very differently.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> In the bold, you state physical and emotional. Now, I’m not saying this is use, so please don’t take it that way, but this is something I’ve heard from my parents when they cheated. Sex can be just physical and not emotional.


I forgot to mention this:

If it was just sex and didn't mean anything, why did your parents hide it from the other spouse when they did it? 

I've never seen a cheater answer that question before. All the excuses they come up with? They never answer that simple question. Why. did. you. hide. it.


And they know exactly why they hid it. Because it did in fact mean something to them and they wanted to have their cake and eat it too. 



I do not hide anything from my wife. I tell her exactly what I'm going to do and why I'm going to do it. Like I mentioned in one of my previous posts, I want her to "snoop" on my computer and read what I write about here. I want it to make her mad. I want her to come and talk to me. What I find hilarious is that my wife is so damn avoidant, so damn pro at rug sweeping that I know she doesn't look on my account here because she knows what is here. She knows it is going to be filled to brim with people saying, "What your wife is doing is not healthy and she needs to face her trauma head on and heal.". That would make it all too real for her.


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## Vorpal (Feb 23, 2020)

“You aren’t finished yet?”


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

T


LATERILUS79 said:


> I forgot to mention this:
> 
> If it was just sex and didn't mean anything, why did your parents hide it from the other spouse when they did it?
> 
> ...


hats a good question and one I’ve been asking, lol. That’s why, it’s never made sense to me that people say porn, strip clubs, cheating, etc..mean nothing, yet hide it. If it needs to be hidden, then there was a meaning.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> T
> 
> hats a good question and one I’ve been asking, lol. That’s why, it’s never made sense to me that people say porn, strip clubs, cheating, etc..mean nothing, yet hide it. If it needs to be hidden, then there was a meaning.


Exactly. If you have to hide it, then you know it is wrong.
i don’t hide porn use from my wife. For the few times a year that she looks at it, she’s not exactly hiding it from me.

I bring it up at least once a year and ask her if there is a problem. She says no every time. I’m not a mind reader and she is really good at acting like a robot so I can’t get a read on her.

I tell her she is more than welcome to speak to me about it whenever She wants. She never does. That’s as much as I can offer. It is up to her to let me know if it ever bothers her. So far it hasn’t in about 20 years.


as for your parents, I am curious what their answer is for hiding it.

oh, and the answer, “I didn’t want them to know because I didn’t want to hurt my spouse’s feelings.” Is a lie. They don’t care about about the others feelings or else they wouldn’t have done it in the first place. They hide it because it allows them to continue to do what they want and no face any accountability. Hiding it allows them to continue to do what they want without consequences. It has nothing to do with feelings (well, other than the discomfort and shame when their spouse learns the truth, but that means the cheater is only thinking about themselves)


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

@MiaLancer69, you had mentioned you connected with your husband in other ways outside of sex, correct? Also, @heartsbeating asked me what do my wife and I connect on. 

This thread had me thinking about things in this area. 

Last Sunday, my wife and I were laying in bed watching a show. We were both laying on side in a "separated" spoon formation. I heard her start to cry softly during a part in the show. It was a really sad part. I get it. Things like this typically don't get to her, but I could see it was bothering her. I moved in to hold her and comfort her. I tried 3 times and she pushed me away each time and snapped at me on the 3rd attempt. This upset me and I said, "Why are you doing that? I'm just trying to comfort you.". She said that if she lets me hold her, she'll start crying more and she doesn't want to. So I said, "Are you telling me you don't want your husband, the man you've been with for 20 years, to comfort you while you are crying?"

Silence. 

I could have asked again, but I know that means she would have gotten up and walked away. 


Mind you, I am the man that she is desperate to stay with. The man she'll do anything for if I start to walk out the door - but I'm not allowed to comfort her if she cries. So she also dissociates from other forms of emotional bonding, not just sex. 


Best I could get was a "sorry" out of her the next day. I knew we wouldn't be able to talk about it, so sometimes I resort to text. Sometimes she'll talk that way. I told her that I just wanted to hold her and comfort her. I said it hurt pretty bad that she wouldn't allow me to do that considering I am the one she chose for that job. She said she was sorry and that she loved me. A lot of times it is very difficult to believe.


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## theloveofmylife (Jan 5, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I told her that I just wanted to hold her and comfort her. I said it hurt pretty bad that she wouldn't allow me to do that considering I am the one she chose for that job.


I don't know how to say this gently, so here goes the straightforward response:

It wasn't about you. Not everything is. It was about her and she didn't want to cry more. Maybe get to the bottom of that instead of jumping to the idea that she's intentionally trying to hurt you by answering your question honestly.

And, all she can say is "sorry." I don't even know what she has to be sorry for. She was open and honest and you took offense to what she was feeling. Who gets to decide that her feelings are right or wrong?

It seems to me that she does respond to you. Maybe it's just not what you want to hear?

I'm not trying to be mean, just offering the perspective of someone on the outside looking in.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I won't defend porn use. Doesn't matter if someone destroys me in a logical argument. I'm going to look at it anyway. Best I can say is that it feels way different than going to see a woman live and touching her.


FWIW, I also see porn as different from strip clubs. Porn is like lusting after a movie star, it's not someone you know in real life. Lap dances are physical contact with another person. Strippers are people that you are engaging with in a personal, sexual way. And we ALL know there is, in fact, sex in the Champagne room. And in the main room. If you haven't seen it, it's because you're not looking for it. It is happening. And no one is going to convince me that it's not infidelity. Because it is. And if you can do that with a stranger and have it mean nothing, then it means nothing with me too. It means less with me than with her, because you're turning off all the lights and pretending that I am her because she is more attractive. So tell yourself whatever you want about "disconnecting" and justify whatever you like, but it is what it is. Those are my boundaries. And if it's not ok for your wife to rub her naked body all over strangers, but it's ok for you to be with a stripper, then you are a hypocrite.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

theloveofmylife said:


> I don't know how to say this gently, so here goes the straightforward response:
> 
> It wasn't about you. Not everything is. It was about her and she didn't want to cry more. Maybe get to the bottom of that instead of jumping to the idea that she's intentionally trying to hurt you by answering your question honestly.
> 
> ...


Fair points.

I’m hoping to speak to my wife about it soon….. hopefully.

oh, and I don’t think it is all about me and I don’t think she is intentionally trying to hurt me. I guess what I’m looking for is this:

if she wants to stay married with me, why not let me in?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

theloveofmylife said:


> I don't know how to say this gently, so here goes the straightforward response:
> 
> It wasn't about you. Not everything is. It was about her and she didn't want to cry more. Maybe get to the bottom of that instead of jumping to the idea that she's intentionally trying to hurt you by answering your question honestly.
> 
> ...


This is absolutely right in an objective sense.

Unfortunately, his wife's lack of sincerity the dead bedroom has led @LATERILUS79 to question her sincerity in everything..collateral damage from a dysfunctional relationship.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Fair points.
> 
> I’m hoping to speak to my wife about it soon….. hopefully.
> 
> ...


Because sometimes we need to be our own person.

Look, brother. I totally get why you are where you are, as well as why this incident concerned you.

That said, if you want her honesty, the last thing you need to do is scold, chide, or pester her when she actually gives it to you, simply because you didn't like her answer. That is YOUR insecurity coming through.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

farsidejunky said:


> Because sometimes we need to be our own person.
> 
> Look, brother. I totally get why you are where you are, as well as why this incident concerned you.
> 
> ...


More fair points.

I'm always happy to hear criticism and to learn. I am far from a perfect human being. I know I've done more than my fair share of wrong things in my relationship/marriage. No question. There is always something about myself that I can improve. 

These are two very good perspectives and something I'll be keeping in mind. 

Like I said, I wasn't even able to keep my resentment in check until I came to TAM in the first place. I didn't even realize that it was out of control and making a very difficult situation for my wife damn near impossible.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

@LATERILUS79, I'm going to further caution you. If you can't take a simple request for her to be left alone over something of moderate significance, what do you think she can expect from you when she reveals something intensely significant?

The last few months, you've been openly questioning your wife's ability to be able to help recover your marriage, while really only addressing your resentment.

I'm sorry to break this to you, brother, but you have more you need to deal with than just your resentment. Insecurity is probably higher on that priority list.

I get it. I really do. There are times where my wife refuses comfort from me as well, and while it hurts my feelings, I have to respect it if I hope to hear an honest answer from her the next time. It helps to remember that it isn't in fact about me, just as the other poster stated.

These are the pitfalls of being a sensitive man

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

LATERILUS79 said:


> More fair points.
> 
> I'm always happy to hear criticism and to learn. I am far from a perfect human being. I know I've done more than my fair share of wrong things in my relationship/marriage. No question. There is always something about myself that I can improve.
> 
> ...


Having been there, I totally understand it. It makes you question a lot of things, chief among them whether or not you need to buy a bridge to live under.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## MiaMia0930 (11 mo ago)

My husband


LATERILUS79 said:


> @MiaLancer69, you had mentioned you connected with your husband in other ways outside of sex, correct? Also, @heartsbeating asked me what do my wife and I connect on.
> 
> This thread had me thinking about things in this area.
> 
> ...


 My husband and I do connect outside of the bedroom, yes. However, due to my childhood (not the sexual abuse, just how I was raised), I also find it hard to be comforted. I had always had to deal with my emotions on my own, so as an adult, it makes it difficult to receive comfort. It almost feels like “weakness,” I suppose. A close family member passed away almost a year ago, this month, and my husband had to work out of town. He asked if I needed him to take off that week, but I insisted he go to work. I needed the space to grieve properly, which I find hard to do when people are around me.
As for your wife, based on what you’ve already stated, I’m wondering if she is closing herself off completely. Now, I know you’ve said you haven’t done anything to make her act this way, and I believe you, but coming from someone who has experienced some of this (on a smaller scale) it makes me wonder if she is overthinking, has anxiety, and likely CPTSD. If she’s overthinking and has anxiety, it will make it difficult to trust anyone or anything, which would cause the complete shutdown and robotics.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

farsidejunky said:


> @LATERILUS79, I'm going to further caution you. If you can't take a simple request for her to be left alone over something of moderate significance, what do you think she can expect from you when she reveals something intensely significant?


lol. So you are going after my biggest fear. It's ok, FSJ. Just punch me in the face, why don't you?  

My opinion? I would be SHOCKED if she reveals anything intensely significant. I hope she does. I REALLY REALLY REALLY hope she does. If it is something significant (and it hurts) then at least I know it would be the truth. My honest to God biggest fear (as it pertains to revealing something intensely significant) is a hidden deal breaker. There is no way, no how, she would give up that information. Not a chance. She'll take it to her grave. 




farsidejunky said:


> The last few months, you've been openly questioning your wife's ability to be able to help recover your marriage, while really only addressing your resentment.
> 
> I'm sorry to break this to you, brother, but you have more you need to deal with than just your resentment. Insecurity is probably higher on that priority list.


If I've given the impression that I'm insecure, then that is the impression I give. I don't believe myself to be so. I'm typically happy with myself, what I'm capable of doing and what I've accomplished in life. Regardless, I don't dispute that there is most likely other things I need to address besides resentment. 



farsidejunky said:


> I get it. I really do. There are times where my wife refuses comfort from me as well, and while it hurts my feelings, I have to respect it if I hope to hear an honest answer from her the next time. It helps to remember that it isn't in fact about me, just as the other poster stated.
> 
> These are the pitfalls of being a sensitive man
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


Interesting. Been a long time since I've been referred to as a sensitive man. Should I have been sensitive to that instance the other night? Probably not. I see your points. It makes sense. I plan on apologizing to my wife tonight for making that situation weird. I think you all have helped me see it differently - but me being sensitive? Sometimes sure, but not the norm. Meh..... I'm open here on TAM due to being anonymous. The situation the other night was very unusual. I can only explain it as me looking for some way to connect with my wife because opportunities are few and far between.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

MiaLancer69 said:


> My husband
> 
> My husband and I do connect outside of the bedroom, yes. However, due to my childhood (not the sexual abuse, just how I was raised), I also find it hard to be comforted. I had always had to deal with my emotions on my own, so as an adult, it makes it difficult to receive comfort. It almost feels like “weakness,” I suppose. A close family member passed away almost a year ago, this month, and my husband had to work out of town. He asked if I needed him to take off that week, but I insisted he go to work. I needed the space to grieve properly, which I find hard to do when people are around me.
> As for your wife, based on what you’ve already stated, I’m wondering if she is closing herself off completely. Now, I know you’ve said you haven’t done anything to make her act this way, and I believe you, but coming from someone who has experienced some of this (on a smaller scale) it makes me wonder if she is overthinking, has anxiety, and likely CPTSD. If she’s overthinking and has anxiety, it will make it difficult to trust anyone or anything, which would cause the complete shutdown and robotics.


This is outstanding information. Thank you.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Fair points.
> 
> I’m hoping to speak to my wife about it soon….. hopefully.
> 
> ...


Being vulnerable with you obviously isn’t something she’s comfortable with. Many women with serious issues in their history need more space than others. The question is can she overcome that. Maybe she’ll address that in therapy.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Openminded said:


> Being vulnerable with you obviously isn’t something she’s comfortable with. Many women with serious issues in their history need more space than others. The question is can she overcome that. Maybe she’ll address that in therapy.


I think you are correct. My curiosity meter is pegged whether I ever get that information or not (or whether I deserve it or not. I really have no idea). Regardless, I wanna know. I would love the truth - why am I not “safe” after 20 years when everything I’ve done would say otherwise (Love, loyalty, protection, no abuse problems, provider, protector, security)?

so it isn’t a logical state of mind she is in. It’s a feeling. She knows logically that I am safe, and I think that is at least partially the reason she doesn’t want me to leave.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I have childhood issues that follow me around. I absolutely consider comfort as a weakness because there was none when I was growing up. And if I’m feeling as though I might tear up then definitely comfort will make it worse. I prefer to face things alone to deal with them. She may or may not be like me (hopefully not) but that’s a difficult thing to overcome.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

LATERILUS79 said:


> @MiaLancer69, you had mentioned you connected with your husband in other ways outside of sex, correct? Also, @heartsbeating asked me what do my wife and I connect on.
> 
> This thread had me thinking about things in this area.
> 
> ...


Really, who needs comforting because they tear up at a movie? Come on. That made her feel foolish and she probably thought you were trying to take advantage of her. If someone did that to me, I'd not be watching movies with them. You know, it's not just men who don't always like to cry around people and would prefer people just leave it alone if they do. All it means if you tear up at a movie is the director did his job. 

I used to resent my mother because she liked me best when I was sick and helpless, which wasn't often. You have to be suspicious of people who seem to feed off of it when you are at your weakest moments. It's got a whiff of opportunistic feeding, taking down a lame antelope.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Really, who needs comforting because they tear up at a movie? Come on. That made her feel foolish and she probably thought you were trying to take advantage of her. If someone did that to me, I'd not be watching movies with them. You know, it's not just men who don't always like to cry around people and would prefer people just leave it alone if they do. All it means if you tear up at a movie is the director did his job.
> 
> I used to resent my mother because she liked me best when I was sick and helpless, which wasn't often. You have to be suspicious of people who seem to feed off of it when you are at your weakest moments. It's got a whiff of opportunistic feeding, taking down a lame antelope.


I’ll keep this brief as I don’t want to be banned.

there is no reason for you to ever comment on something involving my wife and I.

ever.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Last Sunday, my wife and I were laying in bed watching a show. We were both laying on side in a "separated" spoon formation. I heard her start to cry softly during a part in the show. It was a really sad part. I get it. Things like this typically don't get to her, but I could see it was bothering her. I moved in to hold her and comfort her. I tried 3 times and she pushed me away each time and snapped at me on the 3rd attempt. This upset me and I said, "Why are you doing that? I'm just trying to comfort you.". She said that if she lets me hold her, she'll start crying more and she doesn't want to. So I said, "Are you telling me you don't want your husband, the man you've been with for 20 years, to comfort you while you are crying?"
> 
> Silence.
> 
> I could have asked again, but I know that means she would have gotten up and walked away.


I'm glad you didn't ask again, since you had already done plenty to hurt her.

Please try to understand she wasn't doing anything to you. It is actually okay for her to cry while watching something, without having you comfort her over it. This really wasn't about you at all, yet instead you went out of your way to make it all about you.

That said, you did nothing wrong in trying to hold her in the first instance. Yet that is not what she wanted or needed in that moment, so she pushed you away which wasn't wrong of her either.

Where the wheels fell off is you then tried again two more times, when it was evident in the first instance she didn't want you to do that. With her having to push you away again, yet despite that you did it one more time to assert your want upon her. So you clearly failed to respect her own agency, plus failed to respect her wants and needs as well.

In other words though your stated intention was to comfort your wife, given what you did to her. It is pretty clear that your wife's comfort was not what this was about. Since if your goal really was to provide comfort to your wife, you would have appreciated that you holding her in that moment, was not what she wanted and you would have not tried again in the moment.

I hope you will understand that what you were doing was trying to assuage your own ego from the moment you tried again when that wasn't satisfied. You then attacked her with the following statement: "Are you telling me you don't want your husband, the man you've been with for 20 years, to comfort you while you are crying?".



> Mind you, I am the man that she is desperate to stay with.


Because she loves you despite what you do to her.



> The man she'll do anything for if I start to walk out the door - but I'm not allowed to comfort her if she cries. So she also dissociates from other forms of emotional bonding, not just sex.


To protect herself in the face of you not respecting her own agency wants and needs (which is evidenced in what you related above), it ought to not be a surprise that she disassociates from you. What would have been a comfort to her, would have been for you to respect her wants and needs as she expressed them to you. By you not continuing to try to hold her when she made it clear to you that she didn't want or need that.



> Best I could get was a "sorry" out of her the next day. I knew we wouldn't be able to talk about it, so sometimes I resort to text. Sometimes she'll talk that way. I told her that I just wanted to hold her and comfort her. I said it hurt pretty bad that she wouldn't allow me to do that considering I am the one she chose for that job. She said she was sorry and that she loved me. A lot of times it is very difficult to believe.


Wow!

So your wife felt compelled to apologise to you, in the face of you not respecting her agency wants and needs in that moment.

Do you understand how cruel you are to her?

Seriously if you wanted to comfort her, you would have respected her need not to be held I that moment.

That said, it looks like she think the world of you, despite how you hurt her, I am really sorry for both of you that you don't see that.



LATERILUS79 said:


> if she wants to stay married with me, why not let me in?


Because for her own wellbeing, while ever you continue to be unwilling or unable to afford her a safe place to do that, she can't afford to let you in.

So until or unless you actually really respect her own agency, wants and desires, and don't fault her for her own agency, wants and needs (which is what you did on that Sunday), and can prove it consistently for whatever time allows her to feels safe to be more open going forward, she is right not to let you in.

If you want to stay married to her, perhaps you might consider working towards not being an emotionally unsafe partner to her?


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Personal said:


> I'm glad you didn't ask again, since you had already done plenty to hurt her.
> 
> Please try to understand she wasn't doing anything to you. It is actually okay for her to cry while watching something, without having you comfort her over it. This really wasn't about you at all, yet instead you went out of your way to make it all about you.
> 
> ...


Only his wife knows what was going on inside her head. Which is one of the issues in their marriage... communications suck. Regarding it being somehow cruel to ask, more than once, if she's OK? I think there are times when we automatically rebuff our spouse's first attempt to console us about something, just... because. We want to see if it's reflexive and not from real concern maybe? Asking three times might be one time too many, but asking twice might not be inappropriate for some. If she's crying, she's maybe gone into a hole that's tough, but not impossible, to reach. It may take more than one attempt.

It could also be instructive to understand what the trigger was that set her off. I think it's OK for the husband to want to explore that, unless it's one of those things where it's so friggin obvious he already knows.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Casual Observer said:


> communications suck


How can she communicate safely, when she has a spouse who chooses not to respect her wants and needs when she is being open and honest?


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Personal said:


> I'm glad you didn't ask again, since you had already done plenty to hurt her.
> 
> Please try to understand she wasn't doing anything to you. It is actually okay for her to cry while watching something, without having you comfort her over it. This really wasn't about you at all, yet instead you went out of your way to make it all about you.
> 
> ...


Got it. You are awesome. I’ll keep that in mind. It’s why I typically move right by your comments. I’m far from perfect, accepted some reasonable criticism, but I definitely don’t need someone like you to tell me that I don’t respect my wife - and it’s even more hilarious for you to call me cruel.

anyways, this just reminded me I’ve been meaning to put you on my ignore list.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

@LATERILUS79 Do you really not see the dynamic that you ignored her wants and needs under the guise of trying to meet her wants and needs?

And I’m not the only one in this discussion, that has noticed this in what happened on that Sunday.

At the end of the day it is up to you to decide if protecting your ego matters more than letting your wife feel safe to let you in.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Personal said:


> How can she communicate safely, when she has a spouse who chooses not to respect her wants and needs when she is being open and honest?


So you disagree that his wife has an avoidant personality, or that he's going about things the wrong way, given that she has an avoidant personality?

There are some people who truly desperately want to stay married, wish that they could make the changes that need to be made, but they're not capable of making those changes on their own. So which is the most important component? That they want to remain married, or that they have extreme difficulty making the required changes?

This isn't hypothetical. It's seen here all the time; it's not my uniquely-personal version of hell. Where do you draw the line between helping the spouse understand and hold accountable for the required changes to stay married, which is their professed goal, and bullying?


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

While I'm thinking about it, the "comfort situation" got taken out of proportion. I was attempting to explain that I am always looking for ways to connect with my wife. That obviously didn't work. I didn't think some people would make such huge leaps and speculations here.

So allow me to add to the story since some people here are making huge leaps and accusing me of abusing my wife. I first asked my wife if she was ok, she then realized I could hear her crying so she started to do her "cry-laugh" thing. It's awfully cute. I took it as a playful. My first two attempts to give her a hug were playful as we were both laughing (although she was cry-laughing). The third attempt I got the point that she didn't want comfort. 

The reasonable advice here is still very reasonable and very much appreciated. Those of you that pointed out my errors in a respectful manner helped me see things in a different way that was very helpful. 

The people that want to speculate that I would ever consider sexually assaulting my wife or that what I did was "cruel"..... grow up. My wife is not a delicate little flower. She is a grown ass woman. If what I did constitutes cruelty, then I can only imagine what you complain about in the world on a daily basis. You might be scared of your own shadow. 

You don't know me, you don't know my wife and your speculations are way out of line and truly disgusting. I don't share everything in the main group here because of disgusting comments like that. You have no clue.... no idea about the EXTREME CARE I put into my marriage on a daily basis so that my wife feels as safe as humanly possible. You have no way of possibly knowing the lengths I go through every single day so that my wife would NEVER feel like I could ever possibly assault her. My wife has some serious demons to contend with in her head, but I know one thing for certain - she knows that her husband is the one man she can count on to protect her from any sort of cruelty or assault.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

MiaMia0930 said:


> Attraction can come in many forms, though. Because of who my husband is, the person who I fell in love with, I am attracted to him no matter his change in clothing/weight/hairstyle, etc.. I am attracted to his being and that forms a physical attraction regardless of what a person looks like. When I met him, he was 6’2, skinny as a rail, and baby faced. He’s still 6’2, has dad bod, and has full on facial hair. He used to dress in loose jeans and baggy t-shirts, now he dresses in wranglers and cowboy boots. Wanna know something? I’m attracted to him now just as much as I was then…if not more. When you find that person, the one that touches your soul, attraction transcends the outward appearance. In fact, when you are attracted to their being, like a domino effect, it will cause the attraction to their appearance. That’s why, even in old age, people continue to have an attraction to their partner.


I do really love what you express here about attraction transcending appearance.

Although I feel deeply connected to my husband, I'm not confident that my _sexual _attraction would remain if he was less observant of his health and appearance. He's never been into going to the gym, it's just not his bag, yet he keeps fit through other aspects of life. His appearance has changed over the years, as has mine, and my attraction for him has if anything increased. However, in the context of lifestyle habits and not applying hypothetical / unexpected health challenges, if he became less conscious of his appearance (including hygiene and other aspects), it's possible that my physical attraction to him could be impacted. An example is during lock-down, he was regularly having a small donut with his coffee. I'd get them for him too, knowing he liked this. Then one day he requested that I skip the donut as he'd needed to expand his belt and so it was time for him to cut back. While I thought he was all good, he has those moments when he notices in his clothing that it's time to adjust aspects and which he manages in a balanced way to get back to his own ideal; for both health and appearance. If he didn't, and continued on to where he was then needing bigger sizes and developing a sizeable belly that I observe of some men in our age group, call me shallow but I'm not so sure if my level of _sexual _attraction would remain the way that it is. Based on both appearance and on habits.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

MiaMia0930 said:


> Might I ask you and Laterilus79, how you can view a strip club and porn differently? Porn is still viewing of other women naked, is it not? It’s still fantasizing about being with someone else. Without the lap dance added in, I can’t see how one is any different than the other. Some would also argue that since it’s all fantasy, that a lap dance is no different either. That’s where it makes no sense to me. Why would I need or want to imagine or actually be with someone else if the connection were there? It puzzles me. I suppose I see this quite differently. For me, the idea of needing or wanting someone else sexually would mean I am not getting my needs met. So the idea that one can get their needs met and still seek more, is baffling.


Hmmm. I'm not a proponent of porn, or any form of prostitution, but I have a very active imagination and a very dirty fantasy life. 

I don't associate fantasy with real people touching me or watching real people have sex.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

MiaMia0930 said:


> Might I ask you and Laterilus79, how you can view a strip club and porn differently? Porn is still viewing of other women naked, is it not? It’s still fantasizing about being with someone else. Without the lap dance added in, I can’t see how one is any different than the other. Some would also argue that since it’s all fantasy, that a lap dance is no different either. That’s where it makes no sense to me. Why would I need or want to imagine or actually be with someone else if the connection were there? It puzzles me. I suppose I see this quite differently. For me, the idea of needing or wanting someone else sexually would mean I am not getting my needs met. So the idea that one can get their needs met and still seek more, is baffling.


I can't speak for everyone else regarding porn. For me, just me, it was a distraction from intimacy issues in my marriage. A release valve maybe? A way of not getting so frustrated with my wife's view (then) of intimacy that she could feel comfortable saying "If sex is so important to you, go have an affair or find a hooker." Porn was not cheating on my wife; it was (in my mind anyway) a way to prevent me from considering it. Again, the release valve thing. 

In the end, it was wrong because there shouldn't have been a release valve that allowed me to avoid the decisions and reckoning that had to be done. It spanned maybe 20 years, and that's 20 years that our marriage (almost said "my" marriage, which would be the wrong thing to say) wasn't what it could have been. There was no progression to ever-worse or more-exploitive versions of porn, and there was lots of stuff I'd simply turn off and say ewww to. But it didn't turn me off entirely to porn.

An addictive personality is an addictive personality, and whether it's porn or alcohol or lying to get ahead, things get worse over time... you just can't go there at all. Thankfully that wasn't the case for me. I was able to quit cold turkey when I had my version of d-day sorta, and realized there was no place for it.

So... I would never, ever, have considered going to a strip club, much less having a lap dance. That would be actively cheating on my wife, in my opinion. But I don't think my watching porn was. But it doesn't pass the secret test. I didn't let my wife know I was watching it. I did disclose all though, a few months after d-day. If it was something I didn't think she should know, then it was exactly what she SHOULD know.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

heartsbeating said:


> I do really love what you express here about attraction transcending appearance.
> 
> Although I feel deeply connected to my husband, I'm not confident that my _sexual _attraction would remain if he was less observant of his health and appearance. He's never been into going to the gym, it's just not his bag, yet he keeps fit through other aspects of life. His appearance has changed over the years, as has mine, and my attraction for him has if anything increased. However, in the context of lifestyle habits and not applying hypothetical / unexpected health challenges, if he became less conscious of his appearance (including hygiene and other aspects), it's possible that my physical attraction to him could be impacted. An example is during lock-down, he was regularly having a small donut with his coffee. I'd get them for him too, knowing he liked this. Then one day he requested that I skip the donut as he'd needed to expand his belt and so it was time for him to cut back. While I thought he was all good, he has those moments when he notices in his clothing that it's time to adjust aspects and which he manages in a balanced way to get back to his own ideal; for both health and appearance. If he didn't, and continued on to where he was then needing bigger sizes and developing a sizeable belly that I observe of some men in our age group, call me shallow but I'm not so sure if my level of _sexual _attraction would remain the way that it is. Based on both appearance and on habits.


Fighting crime requires him to be in top notch shape.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Got it. You are awesome. I’ll keep that in mind. It’s why I typically move right by your comments. I’m far from perfect, accepted some reasonable criticism, but I definitely don’t need someone like you to tell me that I don’t respect my wife - and it’s even more hilarious for you to call me cruel.
> 
> anyways, this just reminded me I’ve been meaning to put you on my ignore list.


Why would you put him on ignore?

All he did was reiterate nearly exactly what I stated to you further up the thread, just in a less diplomatic and more direct (insensitive) manner.

Just like your post to DBTR...

You don't have to like the person...

You don't have to like their delivery...

That doesn't mean there isn't significant truth in what they are telling you.

All of this ties into exactly what I was saying earlier, which is that you are sensitive. That's okay. So am I.

But your sensitivities, just like triggers, are yours to manage, not the responsibility of others. Ignoring those comments does nothing to help you build resilience in the face of what hurts you, which is exactly what you need.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Personal said:


> @LATERILUS79 Do you really not see the dynamic that you ignored her wants and needs under the guise of trying to meet her wants and needs?
> 
> And I’m not the only one in this discussion, that has noticed this in what happened on that Sunday.
> 
> At the end of the day it is up to you to decide if protecting your ego matters more than letting your wife feel safe to let you in.


I'm quoting this post so you can see it, brother.

100% truth. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Casual Observer said:


> So you disagree that his wife has an avoidant personality, or that he's going about things the wrong way, given that she has an avoidant personality?
> 
> There are some people who truly desperately want to stay married, wish that they could make the changes that need to be made, but they're not capable of making those changes on their own. So which is the most important component? That they want to remain married, or that they have extreme difficulty making the required changes?
> 
> This isn't hypothetical. It's seen here all the time; it's not my uniquely-personal version of hell. Where do you draw the line between helping the spouse understand and hold accountable for the required changes to stay married, which is their professed goal, and bullying?


He said nothing about @LATERILUS79's wife because, in this instance, she wasn't the one that needed addressing.

There is no doubt his wife has plenty of problems to deal with.

This isn't a binary thing where either one or the other needs improvement. Clearly they both do. 

Unfortunately, his wife is not here. All that can be done is encourage him to grow in ways that will help foster a more open form of communication with her.

What @Personal is suggesting does exactly that. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

LATERILUS79 said:


> While I'm thinking about it, the "comfort situation" got taken out of proportion. I was attempting to explain that I am always looking for ways to connect with my wife. That obviously didn't work. I didn't think some people would make such huge leaps and speculations here.
> 
> So allow me to add to the story since some people here are making huge leaps and accusing me of abusing my wife. I first asked my wife if she was ok, she then realized I could hear her crying so she started to do her "cry-laugh" thing. It's awfully cute. I took it as a playful. My first two attempts to give her a hug were playful as we were both laughing (although she was cry-laughing). The third attempt I got the point that she didn't want comfort.
> 
> ...


If at any time what you are hearing from me is too heavy, say the word and it will stop.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

I also want to add @LATERILUS79 I don’t think you have malicious intent towards your wife at all. I don’t think you’re out to get her. Yet that doesn’t mean the dynamic is safe for her to let you in.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I had a family member pass recently. Batman learned that I'd had a big ole cry in the car by myself on the way home from the store (it's okay, no safety risk). He did express wanting to be there for me; that he could have come with me. I let him know that while I know this, I just wanted to process that way. It never would occur to me that his feelings could potentially be hurt. I also didn't consider that I was shutting him out. As kind of others have raised, it wasn't about him, it was about me. I needed that moment of just driving, listening to music, and the emotions of grief bubbled over. He let me know that he's there for me whenever I need it. That in itself spoke to me, personally. His support is there if I need it. 

Speaking with a family member on the phone a few days later, on speaker with Batman there. Hearing family member crying, I was tearing up. I don't typically cry easily. I was about to share/relay a memory, and instantly choked up. Couldn't get the words out. He told me to take my time, he understood (family member). Batman sat next to me, rubbed my back. I managed to squeeze out the memory; family member and I both in tears as I was doing so (understandably). After the call, Bats asked if I was okay. At that point, I reached out for a hug.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

farsidejunky said:


> I'm quoting this post so you can see it, brother.
> 
> 100% truth.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


Yer killin’ me Smalls. Yer killin’ me.

thankfully, I can’t see ignored list people even if you quote them.

trust me, it’s best that I don’t. I get great help here from quality people. I don’t need insulting help from people that have no idea what they are talking about and have nothing to offer. It is best I don’t speak to them. I can’t say what I really want to say as it will force your hand to ban me.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

farsidejunky said:


> If at any time what you are hearing from me is too heavy, say the word and it will stop.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


Nothing you’ve said is out of line. Not even close.
Check your pm.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

farsidejunky said:


> He said nothing about @LATERILUS79Unfortunately, his wife is not here. All that can be done is encourage him to grow in ways that will help foster a more open form of communication with her.
> 
> What @Personal is suggesting does exactly that.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


Strongly disagree.

that member’s comment had nothing to do with helping me foster better communication with my wife.

many members here however have definitely helped me out with that very issue and have succeeded. I owe a lot to some people here (and you know who you are). I’ve had the most productive conversations with my wife after getting stellar advice from TAM.

page long expositions dripping with arrogance and littered with insults do not help me.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> What @Personal is suggesting does exactly that.


There was a time in the past when I was doing the same thing (as in the behaviour) wrong myself.

Yet what did wonders for my relationship with my wife going forward, is that I was fortunate enough to have figured out what I was doing, and was able to stop that behaviour.

Which is why, I (like you) called out that dynamic.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> Why would you put him on ignore?


He put me on ignore for a lot less...  

Anyway, I can smell lack of boundaries and respect and co-dependency here. I know because I was like that myself. And I thought I was right.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Personal said:


> There was a time in the past when I was doing the same thing (as in the behaviour) wrong myself.
> 
> Yet what did wonders for my relationship with my wife going forward, is that I was fortunate enough to have figured out what I was doing, and was able to stop that behaviour.
> 
> Which is why, I (like you) called out that dynamic.


And that's why I don't have a relationship now. I didn't understand.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> He put me on ignore for a lot less...
> 
> Anyway, I can smell lack of boundaries and respect and co-dependency here. I know because I was like that myself. And I thought I was right.


Unfortunately, when you accidentally click on a thread here where the last person that commented is someone you have on ignore, it automatically shows you their content.

You are on ignore because you know nothing.... but you think you do. Just like Personal thinks he knows what he is talking about. And just like that guy, you have NOTHING of value to offer. Nothing. You butt into everything thinking you know all the answers when in fact you don't know what you are talking about.

You smell lack of boundaries and respect and co-dependency? You don't know me. You don't know my dynamic with my wife. My wife and I are about the most independent people that I know. We are far from co-dependency. In fact, I think it would do us a lot of good to spend some more time with each other instead of how little we currently do. Just another thing where your intuition (as per usual) is wildly incorrect.

You and others like personal were able to throw together a wide range of far reaching bullshyt out of one small story - slinging insults along the way and keeping your accounts open. I know I can't answer you the way I'd really like to because it would get me banned and I really don't want to stop speaking to the people here that actually help me. 

You don't have the slightest clue about how much respect I've given my wife over the years. Not the slightest. You have no idea what I've been through and how I've supported my wife over these past 20 years. 

If you live in the same world as personal where an offer of a hug to a woman you've been with for a long time is on par with "cruelty", then you are just as weak as he is. I would imagine that a paper cut would constitute torture in personal's world. 

The ARROGANCE dripping from people like you and personal who think they know it all? It's ridiculous. Why are people like you and him even here? If you both know so damn much, go out and live your lives. 

You both write like you can't get enough of yourselves. I would assume you both love the sound of your own voices. 

Gotta love the internet where people like you and personal would NEVER speak to me in real life the way you do here. 

Anyways. Back to ignore you go before I lose my account.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

@LATERILUS79 won't see this, but I can only add to his arrogance comments that I received many many harsh suggestions in my own original thread some years ago, but I've never been arrogant enough to put people on "ignore". They all helped, somehow. I don't insult people and I'm not arrogant. I don't have anybody on ignore. I consider this a family, in a way. The post above just shows such a massive lack of humility that my head is spinning. He deserves what he gets in his marriage, to be honest.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

MiaMia0930 said:


> Actually, our connection in every other way is great. We still have sex 4-5 times a week..if not more. However, the idea of “making love” seems a bit useless when men seem to crave the disconnected sexual experience most. My husband and I are very open and honest in our relationship. But something’s are best left unsaid, such as him wishing I looked more like a super model or me pretending there’s a connection during sex. Why is it only for men to decide what type of sex is important and at what moment? Perhaps, all should remember women also have needs and they need to be themselves regardless of someone else’s desire…


Don't say "men" because not all men fit your idea.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

that’s where it differs. Men want different encounters, with different women. However, they want their SO to be 100% connected to them during sex. Why should she? Why should a woman need to remain connected to an act, that is told means nothing? In what way does that benefit us women? It doesn’t. So, when sex is just sex…nothing more, then all sexual activity is just that…just sex. Logically, it makes more sense than saying, “hun, I was groping a stripper tonight…it meant nothing…and now I need you to make love to me to rebuild our connection.”
[/QUOTE]

Some men.....don't paint us all with same brush.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Divinely Favored said:


> Some men.....don't paint us all with same brush.


This have been brought up before, by me... she said that she doesn't mean "all men"...


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

MiaMia0930 said:


> Men, have we not all been told/taught “Men are visual and Women are emotional.” Please, do not request that your SO be emotionally connected during an act that you can so easily disconnect from and do with someone else. Do not ask your SO to do something that you yourself will not do…remain emotionally connected to sex. We can’t have our cake and eat it too. We either lump all sexual activities as just sex or we lump them all as emotional connection. So, if you want your SO to be ok with you doing the other things you’re doing…best believe it’s better for her mental state to disconnect during sex with you. If you’re willing to give those things up and have a real emotional connection during sex with her, then do that. Just don’t expect both. That’s so selfish. Imagine her going and banging some guy then coming home to you asking you to make love to her because she doesn’t feel a connection with you anymore. That’s exactly what it’s like when sex is more than just sex.


No it isn't. When sex is more than sex, you don't go bang someone else. You are faithful to the one you love. Problem arises when someone the sex means something to gets connected to someone that it is just sex. It is more likely than not, the one who it means something is gonna get cheated on....because to their SO "it is only sex...."


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> This have been brought up before, by me... she said that she doesn't mean "all men"...


Then she needs to quit using the general term "men" because the way she is staying it implies the gender as a whole. Should be stated "some men"


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> @LATERILUS79 won't see this, but I can only add to his arrogance comments that I received many many harsh suggestions in my own original thread some years ago, but I've never been arrogant enough to put people on "ignore". They all helped, somehow. I don't insult people and I'm not arrogant. I don't have anybody on ignore. I consider this a family, in a way. The post above just shows such a massive lack of humility that my head is spinning. He deserves what he gets in his marriage, to be honest.


Isn't it ironic? You'd think of all people, you'd understand his frame of mind and be more empathetic. 

Hmm, maybe you need some therapy to manage your resentment for the result of your marriage and guilt for failing to act on harsh advice.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> @LATERILUS79 won't see this, but I can only add to his arrogance comments that I received many many harsh suggestions in my own original thread some years ago, but I've never been arrogant enough to put people on "ignore". They all helped, somehow. I don't insult people and I'm not arrogant. I don't have anybody on ignore. I consider this a family, in a way.


Lord help me for the ridiculous mistake I am making for engaging you. I just knew it was you that TXTrini was answering. her comment made it obvious that it was you.

Saying that you smell codependency, lack of boundaries and lack of respect is arrogant. That is quite the speculation on little information. You don't know. You think you do, but you don't. You and I are VERY different people. 

I show a great amount of humility to the people here I respect because I value their opinions, regardless of how harsh they come down on me. 

Why people get up in arms over the ignore list is beyond me. It is annoying to weed through all the garbage posts that are not helpful whatsoever to get to the stuff that is helpful. Let alone the fact that I get pulled off into tangents on crap like this. FSJ has no problem taking me to task and he does it without being a complete A-hole. I have no issues disagreeing with him at times, and yet, I don't ignore him. I ignore the people that have no shot at helping me through my issues because they clearly do not understand my situation and make incorrect speculations. 




In Absentia said:


> The post above just shows such a massive lack of humility that my head is spinning. He deserves what he gets in his marriage, to be honest.


And there it is. How fitting. This is why I have no respect for you. I assumed this is what you thought and I'm glad you said it. It appears I was right. When people like you give advice or "figure out someone's situation" It is obvious what you actually think - You hope for other's lives to be miserable. You hope for their failure. 

What a miserable way to live. It's just like the man-haters and woman-haters here. They are miserable so they do things to make everyone else miserable. It is ridiculous. 

Me? I just ignore people. That's it. No big deal. I prefer not being around people that I cannot under any circumstances have a healthy conversation with..... but I would NEVER hope for their misery or failure. That is disgusting. 

I've already wasted enough time on this. 

Sorry for the t/j. I'll bow out of this one.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

TXTrini said:


> Isn't it ironic? You'd think of all people, you'd understand his frame of mind and be more empathetic.
> 
> Hmm, maybe you need some therapy to manage your resentment for the result of your marriage and guilt for failing to act on harsh advice.


I understand because I’ve been there. I have no resentment. It’s a forum. People can accept what people suggest or not. I dealt with it and I learnt a lot. Your post is condescending.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Lord help me for the ridiculous mistake I am making for engaging you. I just knew it was you that TXTrini was answering. her comment made it obvious that it was you.
> 
> Saying that you smell codependency, lack of boundaries and lack of respect is arrogant. That is quite the speculation on little information. You don't know. You think you do, but you don't. You and I are VERY different people.
> 
> ...


Look… get a life. You don’t know anything about me either. I’m not surprised you are where you are.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> I understand because I’ve been there. I have no resentment. It’s a forum. People can accept what people suggest or not. I dealt with it and I learnt a lot. Your post is condescending.


Curiouser and curiouser...


In Absentia said:


> Look… get a life. I’m not surprised you are where you are.


The lady doth protest too much.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

TXTrini said:


> Curiouser and curiouser...
> 
> The lady doth protest too much.


Is that the best you can do? 😊


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> Is that the best you can do? 😊


It's all I can be bothered to do. Toodles.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

TXTrini said:


> It's all I can be bothered to do. Toodles.


We agree. I feel the same.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I’m not bothered about all this. It’s part of being on TAM. You can’t agree with everybody. Happy day to everyone. I’m out.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I am in full agreement with you. I haven't been to a strip club since I was 20 years old (before I even met my wife) and I only went because I was with friends that wanted to keep drinking and all the bars were closed. I wasn't impressed. It made no sense to me to pay for blue balls.


Same here, only time at one was to meet a dancer. I used to dance country dance with Jade, a hot green eyed blond, at a different club on her nights off. She wanted to fix me up with a dancer at her strip club. I went to meet her. 

Could not go there. She had to mingle with the crowd between sets. I am a man that does not like other dudes getting handsy with my woman and would react in a detrimental manner to such. Never went back to one.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

It’s unfortunate this thread got too personal and moved away from the conversation about looking out for one’s self and using secrecy for protection vs denial of agency for your partner if you do so.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Casual Observer said:


> It’s unfortunate this thread got too personal and moved away from the conversation about looking out for one’s self and using secrecy for protection vs denial of agency for your partner if you do so.


I apologise for the threadjack, but I think LATERILUS79 should open his own thread. I would also like to apologise if I've offended anybody, LATERILUS79 included. It just got too personal and @Personal did his bit too...


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> anyways, this just reminded me I’ve been meaning to put you on my ignore list.


Please pardon me for being a buttinski; but, this would be a mistake (imnsho). @Personal is one of the few men on this forum who actually can understand women (we're really not from Venus and y'all really aren't from Mars). FSJ is getting there.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Blondilocks said:


> Please pardon me for being a buttinski; but, this would be a mistake (imnsho). @Personal is one of the few men on this forum who actually can understand women (we're really not from Venus and y'all really aren't from Mars). FSJ is getting there.


I appreciate your concern. His style of delivering messages doesn't work well with me - let alone I don't agree with most of what he says.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

LATERILUS79 said:


> TM, I’m gonna ask you, as a random internet stranger, to not refer to yourself as unattractive or disgusting. I worry that you think about yourself in this way and then possibly project that to your husband.
> Is it possible that your husband is one of the terrible men out in the world that cheats? Maybe. I don’t know him and I only know what you share here.
> I will say this from a different male perspective than the the one you fear the most from men.
> 
> ...


Sadly of all the cheaters I personally am privy to, the # of cheating wives has surpassed the # of cheating husbands by good bit.


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## David60525 (Oct 5, 2021)

aaarghdub said:


> Online, I’ve seen a lot of comments of sexually disconnected partners raising the issue of how important sex is to them (emotionally) only to be rebuked by a comment along the lines of “dude, it’s just sex, get over it.”
> 
> So as a thought experiment this morning, I was thinking of ways I’ve seen what the title of this post is. I would offer the following as evidence that sex for your partner is just a physical thing and not much else:
> 
> ...


Making love should include all what you wrote.
See a sex therapist. If it don't improve intimacy and together, oh, read Dr
Gottman books. Back to my rant. Sex is a chore for either one of you. No growth of bonding divorce, even if you have kids. Us men get ED at 55 usually, so get a partner that meets your emotional, sexual, and intimacy needs, and can talk about and resolve tough issues. Read both of you tje tacticL guide to women and proper caring and feeding of marriage. Good luck


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

MiaMia0930 said:


> I dabbled in poly during my younger years and I can say that the act of sex was just that, sex. You can care about someone, yes, but there is not emotional connection during the sex with your SO. If there were, you’d never do it again (I know because my husband once asked about a threesome and I told him that was not something I would be willing to do with him, as we were connected during sex at that time) when you’re connected, you don’t want to share that person with anyone else. While they might have that emotional connection to a person outside of the bedroom, they don’t have it during sex.
> 
> I have mentioned it to him, which led to him saying I was just jealous or insecure (I’m a very secure person and don’t see myself as the jealous type…if something means nothing then what would be the reason for jealousy?). He said, “this sounds like a you problem, not a me problem.” So, I left it at that and allowed the disconnect to happen for me.


He sounds like a real 🍑. A rotting, worm eaten one at that. He sounds like a dik. I am a person who has strong emotions with sex. If that emotional connection is damaged, sex is off the table too. I'm with you in that we both see porn and such as crossing the line. There are no GNO/BNO. Hell we did not have a Bachelor/Bachelorette parties. Did not want to go out partying w/o the other. 

My wife and I both are completely vulnerable to each other. I have told her it is undescribable the feeling that I can let my guard down with her and be completely vulnerable and bare my soul and know that she is a safe port in the storms of life.

With words or actions she could destroy me...at the same time she has said she loves me so completely that even if I cheated, she would not leave. She is safe saying that as it would never happen. Even in the past when the marriage was strained due to her actions, walls and past issues, I value my integrity most of all and would leave before going there.

Marriage is better than ever! 25 yrs come May. Just keeps getting better.

There are many that turn it off and on. Like a woman that falls in love with her AP but has sex with hubby to keep up the facade. Same for both sexes.

Or there are prostitutes that are married. Do not understand that at all.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

MiaMia0930 said:


> Might I ask you and Laterilus79, how you can view a strip club and porn differently? Porn is still viewing of other women naked, is it not? It’s still fantasizing about being with someone else. Without the lap dance added in, I can’t see how one is any different than the other. Some would also argue that since it’s all fantasy, that a lap dance is no different either. That’s where it makes no sense to me. Why would I need or want to imagine or actually be with someone else if the connection were there? It puzzles me. I suppose I see this quite differently. For me, the idea of needing or wanting someone else sexually would mean I am not getting my needs met. So the idea that one can get their needs met and still seek more, is baffling.


I see so called "mommy porn" books as a step above PB or Penthouse in terms of severity. There are a lot of women that are up the SOG book and scoff at Penthouse, etc. A porn mag has pictures, a novel has you making your own pictures in your mind, that is much more intimate. One can create their own image of who Grey/Gray looks like, what kind of body, pet themselves in the characters place. 

Why women got so hot over that book. I know of 2 women who became so hypersexual over that book they started cheating on their husbands. One said he had no problems with his wife reading that, he was benefitting from it. I am like Ok you realize she is fantasizing about the character while screwing you? You are just a flesh dildo and in her mind she is having sex with the other guy. Was not long before she was caught screwing her friends buff trooper hubby.

To my wife and I, none of it is OK. No porn, no books, no strippers, no BNO/GNO.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Hmmm. I'm not a proponent of porn, or any form of prostitution, but I have a very active imagination and a very dirty fantasy life.
> 
> I don't associate fantasy with real people touching me or watching real people have sex.


But if that fantasy is not of your spouse, then that is no different than porn.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Divinely Favored said:


> But if that fantasy is not of your spouse, then that is no different than porn.


Quite different because my thoughts aren't real and don't involve real people.
I'm not even in most of them and neither is my wife.
You might be thinking about fantasizing about a particular person but that's not what I'm talking about.

Reading a story where a character murders another character is quite a bit different than watching a real person murder another.

My fantasies are like stories or scenes that have an erotic element.

P.S. Mrs. C and I roleplay occasional and that has an aspect of fantasy as well.

Pretending to be Superman overwhelming Batgirl is a lot of fun.😉


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Quite different because my thoughts aren't real and don't involve real people.
> I'm not even in most of them and neither is my wife.
> You might be thinking about fantasizing about a particular person but that's not what I'm talking about.
> 
> ...


You are talking role play, fantasizing I'm referring to fantasizing about screwing your waitress from the cafe, while with your wife. Or imagining sex a movie star on show you saw last night when with your spouse.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Divinely Favored said:


> You are talking role play, fantasizing I'm referring to fantasizing about screwing your waitress from the cafe, while with your wife. Or imagining sex a movie star on show you saw last night when with your spouse.


I figured that's what you were referring to.

Not even in the same ballpark as fantasies.

What you're talking about is lusting after real women.

That's not a fantasy at all.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

If there is governance over what I "think" about when having sex, than I am in trouble.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

"She said that if she lets me hold her, she'll start crying more and she doesn't want to. So I said, "Are you telling me you don't want your husband, the man you've been with for 20 years, to comfort you while you are crying?"

[/QUOTE]


@LATERILUS79 I feel a strong connection to your story as I share some similarities with your wife. This moment strikes me as a key moment for various reasons:
1) when my husband was almost out the door he made it clear that it wasn't just the sexual aspect of our relationship it was the emotional aspect that he didn't know me and he couldn't continue if I couldn't learn to be vulnerable so I _knew_ I had to get that aspect of myself sorted.

2) my coach is a guy in the uk i am happy to message you his details. He has really helped me - broke through to me and i think he could help your wife. He is not cheap. He makes me feel those moments says it is the ONLY way. The first time I was furious with him but when I felt my feelings it was transformative for my relationship with my husband and kids. Your wife doesn't want to feel her feelings but feeling her feelings

Is. The. Way. 

You know this instinctively which is why I think this got to you so deeply.

3. Worth trying to remember what moment triggered your wife's tears. Might give you an insight into her that would help.


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## Bulfrog1987 (Oct 8, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Watch out for this. Those are not friendly to women. This could actually be exacerbating the problems.
> 
> It honestly sounds like you need some self confidence. You're all over the forum with this same pain. Take a deep breath, look at your life and decide what you can live with. Like my grandmother always said, "Do the best that you can for as long as you can, then save yourself."


Actually, this particular group was speaking all the things many on here have said as well. “She’s not a prince of property. She’s a daughter of the king dude. You need to take a good long look in the mirror.” Literally telling him they’d walked through this with him but he had to do the work, ect.

However, two weeks ago in Saturday my husband ended his life while our son and I were gone. So, it’s all a moot point now. I’m just a zombie now looking bad and realizing, even trying to accept that these past few months were really a bigger symptom of what was really going on with him.. I can see that clear as day now. And the guilt is eating me alive.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Bulfrog1987 said:


> Actually, this particular group was speaking all the things many on here have said as well. “She’s not a prince of property. She’s a daughter of the king dude. You need to take a good long look in the mirror.” Literally telling him they’d walked through this with him but he had to do the work, ect.
> 
> However, two weeks ago in Saturday my husband ended his life while our son and I were gone. So, it’s all a moot point now. I’m just a zombie now looking bad and realizing, even trying to accept that these past few months were really a bigger symptom of what was really going on with him.. I can see that clear as day now. And the guilt is eating me alive.


So, so very sorry for your loss. There are no words.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Bulfrog1987 said:


> Actually, this particular group was speaking all the things many on here have said as well. “She’s not a prince of property. She’s a daughter of the king dude. You need to take a good long look in the mirror.” Literally telling him they’d walked through this with him but he had to do the work, ect.
> 
> However, two weeks ago in Saturday my husband ended his life while our son and I were gone. So, it’s all a moot point now. I’m just a zombie now looking bad and realizing, even trying to accept that these past few months were really a bigger symptom of what was really going on with him.. I can see that clear as day now. And the guilt is eating me alive.


I'm very sorry to hear this tragic news and your loss.


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## Defhero (Jan 5, 2022)

Talker67 said:


> this is why you need to talk about sex, have sex, probably actually need to live together for a while BEFORE GETTING MARRIED.
> 
> i know some religions frown on that. but it is really the only way you can be sure the two of you are tuned to the right wavelength.
> 
> ...


You are so right. I figured this out after the 2nd marriage. My wife of 15 year now, we talked heavily about this subject, before I would marry. Respect, respect, respect. She has never turned me down and she initiates it 40% of the time.m At times during menopause, she would demand that I come to bed so she could suck my eyeballs back into my head.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

Defhero said:


> You are so right. I figured this out after the 2nd marriage. My wife of 15 year now, we talked heavily about this subject, before I would marry. Respect, respect, respect. She has never turned me down and she initiates it 40% of the time.m At times during menopause, she would demand that I come to bed so she could suck my eyeballs back into my head.


She's a keeper, for sure!


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