# I never saw this coming - where to now?



## NeverSawThisComing

Hi everyone,

I'm a mess at the moment. My wife and I were happy together, or so I thought. Six years living together, including 4 years married. We have a beautiful young daughter. We moved to an Asian capital for my wife's work about 8 months ago, but I've had trouble finding work, but I've kept myself busy with fulltime language classes until I do find something. We both had great, well-paying jobs back home, but a huge opportunity opened up for my wife and we went for it. My career went to the sidelines for the move, but I'm well qualified and will find something here soon I'm sure. I'm learning the local language to be more employable here.

My wife travels a lot for work as the company she works for is in the midst of setting up their regional presence across several cities, and my wife is integral to that process.

Her travel is mostly between 3-4 key Asian cities, but we're managing ok - as we have a full-time nanny for the little one. Travel averages out to about 1 week per month, usually in 3-4 day bursts.

My wife's Hotmail syncs on my computer as well as hers - this was just an accident due to her accessing her Hotmail account on my computer several months ago. Never thought much of it, as it was usually just junk mail - all very boring, and I did sneak a peak once in a while - but she's never been secretive about anything, and I never saw anything out of the ordinary.

However, it turns out that my wife must not have known that I was getting all her Hotmail. About a week ago, I stumbled across a few emails on my laptop between her and a guy from head office.

There was nothing remotely sexual, but these two were obviously very close friends at least. They were sharing fitness goals - but that could be platonic, right? Except that I'd never heard of the guy before, and she talks about work a lot.

Then I read a line that leapt off the screen, from my wife, "I don't know were the line is now - everything I do reminds me of you." She also mentioned that it was strange being back at home after such a great time in (city where the head office is located). She'd just come back from a week there while the nanny and I looked after my daughter.

She also mentioned in the emails that the main reason she gets to work so early every morning is for chatting with him online. She would kiss me goodbye every morning before heading off to the office for a 6am start. Very few people arrive into the office until 8-9am usually, but this also allowed her to come home earlyish to play with our girl, so I know it wasn't just for chatting.

So I tried to rationalise and analyse what was going on. There was only proof of an EA (in my mind). Then I started thinking about that line again. It took a while, but it gradually dawned on me that I know that feeling very well - we all do. The reality of returning to everyday life feels strange. Everything reminds me of you. You only get that after an intense time in a new romance. "I don't know were to draw the line now" indicated to me that this hasn't gone on for long. With the information in from of me, I surmised that perhaps an EA had been going on for some time, and that this past week had been the first time it had gone physical.

Two days ago I was ready to confront her. I asked her, "Did you know that your Hotmail syncs on my computer?"

"You've been reading my emails?"

"Not intentionally, but yes. Tell me about Michael."

Blank stare of disbelief.

"Babe, it's obvious. How long has it been going on for? I need to know everything."

She then burst into tears, repeating, "I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. What have I done?" 

It was sincere. There was no attempt to minimise, blame-shift or deny. She told me they'd been chatting for months, but physical for two months (not just one week - my radar was out a bit there). I've never known my wife to lie about anything, and I don't think she spoke a word of a lie that day.

After talking for a few hours, it turns out she's been feeling a growing distance between us over the past couple of years - which is absolutely true. We've been talking about getting some counselling for at least a year now. Sex life has been almost non-existent since the birth of our daughter as well. 

I'm a lazy communicator and spend too much time in my computer and reading. She's a bubbly, life of the party girl. And seriously hot. I sometimes act impatient when she talks to me about stuff. Sometimes I feel overwhelmed by the number of words that can come out of her mouth, and the hap-hazard changing of topics. But she's just unwinding from a tough day in the office, and I shut her down, and too frequently act annoyed. My way of winding down from work is to chill, and I guess I haven't even really tried to reach her half-way. I know that some of it is depression - especially now, with no job, but I've never sought treatment.

She doesn't know if it's repairable, and suspects it may be too late.

I think it is repairable. I've never loved anyone as much as her and I love our family.

She agrees it is worth trying to fix -at least for the sake of keeping our family together. We agreed that counselling must begin very soon. In fact, this morning she sent me an email to tell me that she's made an appointment for herself.

I've told her the affair must stop immediately. She agrees. But here's the snag. She will be working in the same office as OM for a few days overseas, and (kudos for being truthful), she said that she's not sure if she can guarantee nothing will happen.

We are apart at the moment (due to me currently studying a short course in another city), and will not see each other face to face until after she comes back from this business trip. We do Skype daily though (with our daughter), and have agreed we should begin our healing process by talking on the phone for half an hour as well before we go to bed.

By the way, the OM is married with two kids. She knows it's wrong and immoral and destructive for both families, but she's having trouble committing to staying away from him. I think that's also why she's made the counselling appointment for herself - I can tell she's conflicted about how she is able to justify the affair in her mind - especially to this guy. I also note that she didn't take the easy way out and say, "No, never again." Which I would have believed if she had said it.

It's a week until she goes on that business trip. I'll be away from the family for the next two and a half weeks.

We talk tonight. 

What should I do?


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## EleGirl

The best way to cause the end of the affair is to tell the other man's wife. Generally, after that the OM is too busy trying to save his marriage and will dump your wife.

If you do this, send his wife copies of some emails that are strong evidence. 

There are some good books that I suggest. Read them in this order:
"Surviving an Affair" by Dr. Harley
"His Needs, Her Needs" 
"Love Busters"

Another thing that people often do to prevent the continuation of an affair is for the spouse to travel with the cheater. If you and your child went with her on the trip, it would more likely ensure that she does not cheat on the trip.

You wife is going to need to find a new job. She cannot continue to work with the OM. She has completely destroyed this great career chance that she had.


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## tracyishere

I wouldn't accept that. She needs to make a decision now! She cannot work on your marriage if this OM is still in the picture. Show some respect for yourself and give her an ultimatum. You deserve it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67

tracyishere said:


> I wouldn't accept that. She needs to make a decision now! She cannot work on your marriage if this OM is still in the picture. Show some respect for yourself and give her an ultimatum. You deserve it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And like what has been said you need to contact the omw asap!


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## the guy

Tell the OMW (other mans wife)

Exposure is the best way to fight this affair. It will also and more pressure for the Om as her tries to save his own marriage.

Get it? See the OM has no reason not to stop seeing your wife but if you expose this then not only will the pressure be on your wife to keep her marriage..the presure will also be on the OM to keep his marriage.

Please don't tell your wife, you don;t want her and Om doing any damage control....just get the contact info for the other mans wife and contact her. If you tell your wife about this plan it won't have the effect you want it to have.

You must blind side the OM and if you talk to your wife about contact the OMW she will tell her lover and her lover will make sure he protects his own marriage with more lies.

Please expose this and don't tell your wife!


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## tom67

the guy said:


> Tell the OMW (other mans wife)
> 
> Exposure is the best way to fight this affair. It will also and more pressure for the Om as her tries to save his own marriage.
> 
> Get it? See the OM has no reason not to stop seeing your wife but if you expose this then not only will the pressure be on your wife to keep her marriage..the presure will also be on the OM to keep his marriage.
> 
> Please don't tell your wife, you don;t want her and Om doing any damage control....just get the contact info for the other mans wife and contact her. If you tell your wife about this plan it won't have the effect you want it to have.
> 
> You must blind side the OM and if you talk to your wife about contact the OMW she will tell her lover and her lover will make sure he protects his own marriage with more lies.
> 
> Please expose this and don't tell your wife!


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## NeverSawThisComing

Thanks Elegirl. I wish I could travel with her - that's a great idea, but I'm stuck on this month-long course. 

I've tried finding the wife, but all I have is the OM's name, the company he works for, and which large city he lives in. I haven't been able to match up anything in the Whitepages and can't find him on Facebook.

I'll have a look at those books.


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## the guy

Your wife has not faced any consequences for her action...thats why she can not promise you to be faithful.

I bet if her job was at risk she could keep a promise to be faithful.

Besides she needs to quit if the both of you want this marriage. Everytime she see OM she will want him and it will continue to infect your marriage.

Again quiting her job is just another consequence she will need to face for making bad choices.

With out consequences the bad behavior will continue...hell she even admitted to it.


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## tom67

Hire a pi then if you have to your marriage is at stake and it doesn't look good.


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## Shaggy

1. Immediately tell the other mans wife - that will speed up her ending the affair

2. Contact Her boss and HR at her company and report the affair and that they are using her company paid for hotel room to hook up

3. Begin the process to you and your daughter returning to your hone country ASAP. If your wife wants to be with her daughter and save the marriage, she can return home with you.

Your wife chose to blow her big career chance when she cheated at work. You say you had a good job back home,then it's time you stop looking for work where you are and return home.

Nuke your wife's affair at work which will make it easier to follow you back home.


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## Shaggy

Oh, and if I where you, I'd be going on the trip with her - another great way to stop her having sex with him.


Frankly after she admitted that she might sleep with him again, why didn't you tell her not to bother coming back? Seriously, you seen to be really under reacting here.


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## Machiavelli

NSTC,

You should have seen it coming. I'm guessing your wife first started outearning you, or started up her first outside relationship, at the same time she started distancing herself. You say the last couple of years and you've been together for six, so that's about right. Different experts indicate 4-7 years of a relationship is where a woman is most likely to embark on an affair, then another crucial time is 12-14 years. There are a number of biological systems at work here. Basically, she has lost sexual attraction for you, due to your decline in male status. Women are hypergamous by nature and OM has what you don't.

Right now, the best way to "fix" this is to go all hard ass on her. Out the OM to his wife and the office. Start training your ass off (bodybuilding), change your clothes, your hair, and your M.O.Take the kids back to your home country immediately and file there. Believe it or not, that is all decisive, tough guy stuff and very appealing to women, even the one it's being done to (your wife). You won't do this, but you will remember this post a few months from now and think "I should have paid attention..." It's too counter-intuitive to the present generation of neutered gammas. 

You should probably start reading this guy's book and his blog.

It goes a long way to explaining how you got in this predicament. 

Just the fact that you haven't already filed and want to reconcile makes you less manly and less attractive to your wife. she's been mentally running down your fitness as a mate for a long time.

How often do women hit on you?


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## Shaggy

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Thanks Elegirl. I wish I could travel with her - that's a great idea, but I'm stuck on this month-long course.
> 
> I've tried finding the wife, but all I have is the OM's name, the company he works for, and which large city he lives in. I haven't been able to match up anything in the Whitepages and can't find him on Facebook.
> 
> I'll have a look at those books.


What's more important your marriage or a course?


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## tom67

Shaggy said:


> Oh, and if I where you, I'd be going on the trip with her - another great way to stop her having sex with him.
> 
> 
> Frankly after she admitted that she might sleep with him again, why didn't you tell her not to bother coming back? Seriously, you seen to be really under reacting here.


Sigh-you should have told her to kick rocks, but this can be fixed you can file and always cancel it if she comes out of the "fog".


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## EleGirl

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Thanks Elegirl. I wish I could travel with her - that's a great idea, but I'm stuck on this month-long course.
> 
> I've tried finding the wife, but all I have is the OM's name, the company he works for, and which large city he lives in. I haven't been able to match up anything in the Whitepages and can't find him on Facebook.
> 
> I'll have a look at those books.


Keep looking.. what social media do people there use? Look for him there. Search the internet for his name and his email address.

How are you stuck in a month long course? What will you lose if you don't take the course? This is an emergency. What would you do if your wife or child were in the hospital in critical condition? Would you just leave for the course? Your marriage is in critical condition. Perhaps it's time to put your wife and your marriage first.


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## KanDo

I am really sorry you are here. And like so many other betrayed spouses, your initial post reads like you are to blame for your wife's cheating STOP THAT! You are responsible for some of the problems in the marriage, but t he affair is ALL on her.

Please do not put up with this"don't know if I can be faithful" Crap. You are worth way more than t hat. Tell the OMW immediately without letting it wife know. Expose to your wife'family as well. Act like a person who has some self-worth and tell your cheating wife that she has a choice t o make if she wants the other man, good luck and you will file for divorce immediately.if she wants her family, you will consider it depending on how committed she is to winning you back. Finally, contact an appropriate attorney to advise you on rights and procedures.

Please don't be like so many other foolish BS who blame themselves and rugsweap into a false recovery that can not last.


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## Shaggy

You have his email, get googling it.


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## JustSomeGuyWho

You need to find the OMs wife.

If she goes on this trip then she will sleep with the OM. She can't guarantee she won't, meaning she is all but guaranteeing she will. 

That is a dealbreaker in my book. She admits the affair, apologizes, wants to work it out ... and then basically admits that she will do it again without saying it in so many words. 

If you want to have a chance at reconciliation then you have to stop it cold and I agree with the others that in this case, exposure to the OMs wife is the best option. I would also tell her that if she does, she might as well not come back. She needs to know it is a dealbreaker and you will not back off (whether you will or not).


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## Shaggy

Btw, all the talk from her about you getting distant etc, is 100% standard cheater script, it's part of her internal justification on why she chose to cheat, and apparently has chosen to continue to cheat.

You have a chance right now to nuke this if you can really standup and fight hard - the things I mentioned, telling the OMW, reporting it to her boss and HR, and following her on the trip to c-block her, are all hard, but they are the things that will give you a chance.

Talking it over and , being a nice understanding patient guy will cost you the marriage.

She's already looked you in the eye and told you she's going to hook up with him next week given the chance, and that you have to just accept that!


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## NeverSawThisComing

Ok news just in. OM will not be attending at the request of my wife (she is more senior than him). She rearranged the schedule of work to be done and they won't be crossing paths.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Stop blaming yourself. Stop fooling yourself. Your OP contains a bunch of minimizing and blame shifting from your wife. 


> 3. Begin the process to you and your daughter returning to your hone country ASAP. If your wife wants to be with her daughter and save the marriage, she can return home with you.


This would be #1 for me after she said she didn't know if she could be faithful. 

Sorry, but you realize she confessed because there must be worse emails?


NeverSawThisComing said:


> Ok news just in. OM will not be attending at the request of my wife (she is more senior than him). She rearranged the schedule of work to be done and they won't be crossing paths.


Cool, now don't you believe this at all.

I'd follow her to the airport, watch everyone get on, demand an itinerary and get his full name. Even then, I still wouldn't believe her at all.


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## tom67

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Ok news just in. OM will not be attending at the request of my wife (she is more senior than him). She rearranged the schedule of work to be done and they won't be crossing paths.


Is there a way you can confirm this I'm just saying.


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## NeverSawThisComing

tom67 said:


> Is there a way you can confirm this I'm just saying.


Yes, good point. Not to any level that would measure up in a court of law. I will be asking more details tonight though.


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## Shaggy

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Yes, good point. Not to any level that would measure up in a court of law. I will be asking more details tonight though.


Trouble is, you honestly cannot believe a thing she says ESPECIALLY about the OM or the affair.


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## EleGirl

Tell her that you have cancelled your class and will be going with her so that the two of you have more time to heal. See what her response is to this. It could tell you if the OM really will not be there.


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## NeverSawThisComing

EleGirl said:


> Tell her that you have cancelled your class and will be going with her so that the two of you have more time to heal. See what her response is to this. It could tell you if the OM really will not be there.


Interesting you should say that. I mentioned I was looking into flights to be with her for those few nights. We could go and and see the sights when she's not working, etc.

She said, no, that's really not necessary - it's all under control. 

Okay.

Now I forgot to mention previously that I did send a private email to her manager last night (we've all had dinner a few times, so I know him well enough to sound out an informal channel rather than go nuclear on her career). I asked if there's anything he can do to eliminate the chance of my wife and OM seeing each other face to face while we work on our issues. His reply was: not unless you want to make this a formal matter - sorry to hear this and best wishes in this difficult time. I said leave it with me, I'll see how the next 24 hours goes before proceeding down that path.

I just received an email from him stating that my wife had told him what had transpired in the past few days, and had requested that she be excused from all overseas travel while we sort out our problems. She actually handed herself into the school principal and gave herself detention. 

My gut was right on this one - I'm encouraged by this display of integrity. She had no way of knowing that this would get back to me.

I need to proceed with caution, as trust is something that must be earned back, and I know that overnight 180 degree flips are seldom actually that. But this is a very good sign.


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## Dyokemm

You cannot love or' nice' your WW back into the marriage.

All the advice you have been given here is spot on.

Total exposure: POSOM's W, boss and HR, both your families.

Tell her you are returning to the States with your D. She can follow if she wants to save her family.

And Shaggy is right. If she can't commit to not seeing this scumbag POS, then tell her to not bother coming home at all.

If you want to save your M, it has to be more important that any course you are taking or even her job.

BTW, her job will have to go anyway if you decide to R. She cannot work with this POS if you want any chance of saving the M.

If the company is reputable at all, though, you will not need to convince her to leave the job. Her and POS should both be getting canned after telling boss and HR since employer paid for rooms, etc, were used to carry out the A.


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## warlock07

> She doesn't know if it's repairable, and suspects it may be too late.
> 
> I think it is repairable. I've never loved anyone as much as her and I love our family.
> 
> She agrees it is worth trying to fix -at least for the sake of keeping our family together. We agreed that counselling must begin very soon. In fact, this morning she sent me an email to tell me that she's made an appointment for herself.
> 
> I've told her the affair must stop immediately. She agrees. But here's the snag. She will be working in the same office as OM for a few days overseas, and (kudos for being truthful),* she said that she's not sure if she can guarantee nothing will happen.*
> 
> We are apart at the moment (due to me currently studying a short course in another city), and will not see each other face to face until after she comes back from this business trip. We do Skype daily though (with our daughter), and have agreed we should begin our healing process by talking on the phone for half an hour as well before we go to bed.
> 
> By the way, the OM is married with two kids. *She knows it's wrong and immoral and destructive for both families, but she's having trouble committing to staying away from him*. I think that's also why she's made the counselling appointment for herself - I can tell she's conflicted about how she is able to justify the affair in her mind - especially to this guy. I also note that she didn't take the easy way out and say, "No, never again." Which I would have believed if she had said it.
> 
> It's a week until she goes on that business trip. I'll be away from the family for the next two and a half weeks.
> 
> We talk tonight.
> 
> What should I do?


What the hell!! Why do want to be with someone who such little respect for you?? 

And the OM wouldn't come because of her request?? Give me a f*cking break!! 

]At this point I think I am more pissed for you about the situation than you are..

Stop putting your wife on a pedestal and start seeing her for what she is. A lying cheater having affair with a married man. Good people don't do that.

You give her much credit for still coming out that she still has feelings for the OM. I cannot blive that you would settle for so less. I think she values you and your relationship so less that she has no fear telling you her feelings for the OM. Do you think they are not discussing on how to keep this going(either by leaving each other spouses or continuing in secret.)

Imagine yourself cheating on your wife for as long as she is .What should you actually feel towards her to do without any guilt, then after being confronted about it...still claim feelings towards your lover

The marriage is long dead. By being desperate to save a marriage with a selfish spouse, you are setting up yourself for sever pain and emotional damage. Most BS here go through the phase you are going through - the denial and desperation phase. the faster you get out of it and see the reality for what it is, the better for you, your kids and the marriage. Take the choice of keeping the family together out of the hands of this selfish woman. It will only keep feeding her behavior


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## warlock07

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Interesting you should say that. I mentioned I was looking into flights to be with her for those few nights. We could go and and see the sights when she's not working, etc.
> 
> She said, no, that's really not necessary - it's all under control.
> 
> Okay.
> 
> Now I forgot to mention previously that I did send a private email to her manager last night (we've all had dinner a few times, so I know him well enough to sound out an informal channel rather than go nuclear on her career). I asked if there's anything he can do to eliminate the chance of my wife and OM seeing each other face to face while we work on our issues. His reply was: not unless you want to make this a formal matter - sorry to hear this and best wishes in this difficult time. I said leave it with me, I'll see how the next 24 hours goes before proceeding down that path.
> 
> I just received an email from him stating that my wife had told him what had transpired in the past few days, and had requested that she be excused from all overseas travel while we sort out our problems. She actually handed herself into the school principal and gave herself detention.
> 
> My gut was right on this one - I'm encouraged by this display of integrity. She had no way of knowing that this would get back to me.
> 
> I need to proceed with caution, as trust is something that must be earned back, and I know that overnight 180 degree flips are seldom actually that. But this is a very good sign.


Integrity my ass. Does she have any other option right now ? She is controlling the situation so that she can manage the outcome. With you dealing with it, she cannot. She should be worried about losing you for the rest of her life and all she seems to be worried is her image at her work place. You are your own biggest enemy. You ust cannot trust this woman right now. 

Notice her response happened after your contact with her manager


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## warlock07

Your wife started cheating with her coworker once you lost your employment. Do you understand the situation here?


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## dogman

If another man was banging my wife, you better believe that within 24 hours he and I'd be having a face to face conversation and he'd want to stay far away from my wife.

You should stop short of nothing to correct this. 

I feel sick for you. You need to get back on course, screw her job, she lost that privelage when she slept with a co worker.

Go home, start working and let her find new work, whatever the cost it's worth it. 

Sorry pal, life is sometimes a kick in the balls.


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## warlock07

And poor guy, she gas lighted him completely. OP did you read the newbie thread. Your wife's affair is following the script.The more you educate about this, the better you can go about handling this.


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## warlock07

And yeah, tell her family immediately. No, this is not out of revenge or spite. if it was, you would tell your family and friends


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## happyman64

NSTC

That is a good sign from your wife now capitalize on it.

Find the OMW and kill this affair.

Then make sure your wife is telling the truth.

Verify everything she says to the best of your ability.

And do not let her know you are speaking to her boss.

Show her who really is boss by your actions.

Then find a job.

HM64


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## Rottdad42

NSTC, you have received good info from the BS's (betrayed spouses) myself included. Mach has nailed it completely. She makes more than you so in turn things change. You need to up your sex rank, this is key. She is in the fog and until she stops and comes back to the reality of things, you will continue to be snowballed. I doubt you are being told the complete truth right now. You are getting half the info. To early in this game for her to be honest with you. I'm not in your shoes and being overseas is in itself difficult, been there done that. I think at this point your only option is exposure on a level that once you do you can't call that bullet back. 

One question I do have does this person work for your wife (subordinate), this would not bode well for her. If the situation was reversed certain inferences could be made. How much are you willing to put up with. Regardless your world has changed forever families are now or most certainly destroyed. Trust is gone. Can you "R" maybe but heaven and earth at a minimum would have to be moved, before you can even begin. Good luck. Please listen to what these folks are saying and some of what I said. We have been where you are now, it's not going to be easy. Good luck.


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## Chaparral

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Ok news just in. OM will not be attending at the request of my wife (she is more senior than him). She rearranged the schedule of work to be done and they won't be crossing paths.


How can you confirm this? You say your wife is telling the truth. What she is no doubt telling is trickle truth. In the last three years I cannot remember one cheating spouse that has told the truth when caught.

This could be a first but you cannot depend on it. Verify every last thing you hear. For example, let her know at the last minute you will be going with her. Better yet, do not let her know and take a different flight. Let her know she has earned 100% skepticism not trust.

Keep your daughters passport handy.


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## Chaparral

Also, start searching for a job back home. Leave clues you are doing it laying around where she will see it. She HAS to think she is on the verge of losing everything.

Anything new on the email acct? Has she quit using it? Too bad you let her know where you got your info. Never give up sources no matter what. Beware she may use it now to send you false info.


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## NeverSawThisComing

Chaparral said:


> Also, start searching for a job back home. Leave clues you are doing it laying around where she will see it. She HAS to think she is on the verge of losing everything.
> 
> Anything new on the email acct? Has she quit using it? Too bad you let her know where you got your info. Never give up sources no matter what. Beware she may use it now to send you false info.


Yeah, the email account. The password changed a couple of days after I had received all the emails I needed. I assume she noticed that the account was being accessed from a different country and she changed the password. So I don't have access to that now.

What I am planning is this:
My return back home (from the course I'm doing) will be a day earlier than she expects. I had originally allowed a couple of days extra for some sightseeing after I've finished the course. I will show up as a surprise. I will insist on transparency of passwords, etc. immediately upon my return. This will not allow enough time to tidy up messages or emails if there is anything to hide.


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## Chaparral

You can download the two books in my signature. Read MMSLP as fast as possible. It will pull the fog from you eyes. Btw, its not a sex manual, just poorly named imho.


NOT JUST FRIENDS is the definitive work on infidelity.

Google free download NO MORE MISTER NICE GUY, many men find this very helpful. You can read a pdf version on line. You will soon recognize if this pertains to you.

MMSLP is must read ASAP.


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## warlock07

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Yeah, the email account. The password changed a couple of days after I had received all the emails I needed. I assume she noticed that the account was being accessed from a different country and she changed the password. So I don't have access to that now.
> 
> What I am planning is this:
> My return back home (from the course I'm doing) will be a day earlier than she expects. I had originally allowed a couple of days extra for some sightseeing after I've finished the course. I will show up as a surprise. I will insist on transparency of passwords, etc. immediately upon my return. This will not allow enough time to tidy up messages or emails if there is anything to hide.


What if she refuses? Tidying up is not that hard tough..,She could be deleting the messages or she could use a diifferent email account. You are being naive to the deception of cheaters and their ways. Is the ******* site still online?


----------



## Carlchurchill

Sorry you going through this, however you said 2 very important things in your opening post:

1) Your sex life has not been good since the birth of your daughter
2) Your wife is VERY sexy

Now everyone on here will say that her cheating is 110% not your fault...however you allowed her to be a soft target for anybody willing to give her an ounce of attention!


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> 
> Then I read a line that leapt off the screen, from my wife, "I don't know were the line is now - *everything I do reminds me of you." She also mentioned that it was strange being back at home after such a great time* in (city where the head office is located). She'd just come back from a week there while the nanny and I looked after my daughter.
> 
> She feels strange at home means she is deep in this Affair and she is gone faaar away from you and your marriage.
> 
> *It was sincere. There was no attempt to minimise, blame-shift or deny*. She told me they'd been chatting for months, but physical for two months (not just one week - my radar was out a bit there). *I've never known my wife to lie about anything, and I don't think she spoke a word of a lie that day.*
> 
> 
> Why you believe she told you the truth on a strech? I strongly belive she TT.
> After talking for a few hours, it turns out she's been feeling a growing distance between us over the past couple of years - which is absolutely true. We've been talking about getting some counselling for at least a year now. *Sex life has been almost non-existent since the birth of our daughter as well.*
> 
> Why your sex life is non existent? Is it due to any physical reasons? or loss of attraction for you
> 
> I know that some of it is depression - especially now, *with no job,* but I've never sought treatment.
> 
> 
> No job is the biggest problem. In the eyes of a women SHAD loses respect in time.It happened to you also.
> 
> She doesn't know if it's repairable, and suspects it may be too late.
> 
> I think it is repairable. *I've never loved anyone as much as her and I love our family.*
> 
> What is the definit of love for you? Is it OK to be a cuckold or doormat husband if one loves his wife? Is it love or unhealthy behavior.
> 
> *She agrees it is worth trying to fix -at least for the sake of keeping our family together. *We agreed that counselling must begin very soon. In fact, this morning she sent me an email to tell me that she's made an appointment for herself.
> 
> *Why she decides whether to R or not? Dont you have any other option? Why you are directly jumping to R when she is not even sure about ending it with OM
> *
> 
> I've told her the affair must stop immediately. She agrees. But here's the snag. She will be working in the same office as OM for a few days overseas, and (kudos for being truthful), *she said that she's not sure if she can guarantee nothing will happen.
> *
> 
> If a wife said this to the face of a husband it means a lot more than what you heared. It means she dont give a **** about your love, hurt, pain or family. It means she dont have any respect for you as a husband. It means she is not afraid of loosing you. She is not afraid of loosing her family.
> 
> Then why should she stop when she knows Only thing you wanted is not to loose her. Did you told her hell no its not aceptable for me? I think you didnt. If you didnt it means you are OK to share your wife with OM!
> 
> We are apart at the moment (due to me currently studying a short course in another city), and will not see each other face to face until after she comes back from this business trip. We do Skype daily though (with our daughter), and have agreed *we should begin our healing process by talking on the phone for half an hour as well before we go to bed.*
> 
> 
> I dont think you or her truly understand the destruction her A brought to this marriage. In my opinion no one repaired their marriage after infidelity by talking on phone for half an hour. I dont think both of your priorities are some thing different not your marriage. Her priority is her la la land with OM as the center of attraction, her reputation and job. yours seems to be your course. Its not going to work.
> 
> *By the way, the OM is married with two kids.* She knows it's wrong and immoral and destructive for both families, but she's having trouble committing to staying away from him. I think that's also why she's made the counseling appointment for herself - I can tell she's conflicted about how she is able to justify the affair in her mind - especially to this guy. I also note that she didn't take the easy way out and say, "No, never again." Which I would have believed if she had said it.
> 
> Stop playing nice man, man up. OM took your wife, your child's home and your marriage, stop playing nice and nuke him. Where is your anger, pride and self respect? I dont means anything physical but inform his wife, friends and HR let him go and take rest at his home playing with his children if OMW allows him.
> 
> It's a week until she goes on that business trip. I'll be away from the family for the next two and a half weeks.
> 
> We talk tonight.
> 
> What should I do?




Your wife lost attraction for you sexually and mentally. Why? find out it may be helpful in future. She is in full control of the situation, take that control from her.
Go back to your country, find your job back. If she wants you let she follow you. You left your good job for her career, she ****ted on her carrier and sacrifice you made by sleeping around. Its her turn if she loves you and if she needs her family she will find a new job.

Expose him to HR and his wife. If they need an official complain they let it be do it. Whom you are worried about? He took your wife from you now its your time to fooook his a$$. If it was me i may not have rested untill OM gets the consequences he desrves.


----------



## Shaggy

Here is how things played out with her mgr.

1. Very possibly he already knew, but ...

2. You contacted him,

3. He contacted her

4. They discussed trying to cool the situation down so that the mgr doesn't have to do something about it officially

5. Your wife offered not to go on a couple trips

Now that's fine and good but not a long term solution couple of take aways

1. When you stand up to her and take action - things move in your favor , so don't be passive about any of this

2. When you contact her mgr, he will contact her and not keep it private

3. You've got a long term problem with her and this guy. The job is going to have to end if you want to fix your marriage. You need to have your own job, and she's got to change hers.


----------



## weightlifter

Can getting him out of the picture be anything less than her getting a new job?

Im thinking not.


----------



## Shaggy

Project for today - find other mans wife.


----------



## warlock07

weightlifter said:


> Can getting him out of the picture be anything less than her getting a new job?
> 
> Im thinking not.


I think the major issue here is an entitled lying and cheating wife more than anything. And a good natured naive husband.

OP, have you discussed about talking to his wife with your wife ? ow did she react to this ?

Have you considered that her scraps of hope that she throws at you once in a while are to control and manage you and make sure that the situation does not blow up ?


----------



## bfree

Every time she goes into work she is reminded of her affair. She is reminded of email communications she had with him. Business trips she took on company time where she and he had sex. Laughing and feeling good that she was newly in love. Everything about her job and her workplace screams infidelity. So long as she works there her affair will never be over in her mind, regardless if she ever sees the OM again. If I were you the first thing I would do is demand she leave that job asap. Failing that I don't see this marriage being recovered.


----------



## Hicks

you have to kill the affiar before you talk about counseling, fixing your marriage etc... 

How to kill the affair:
-- Expose to OMW
-- Formalize HR action within her company
-- Make her quit her job
-- Move back to home country
-- Expose to families, friends etc (nuclear fashion).
-- Get her passwords today

You are wasting your time trying to "fix" a marriage unless she is completely transparent, remorseful and willing to do whatever you require...She gets this way once the door is closed on her fantasy.


----------



## Hardtohandle

All I will say is I was going to retire and sell my home to fix my marriage and my wife was the one having the affair(s).. 


I do like what I am reading about her telling her boss, but I really do think a true and hard decision has to be made. Coming back to the states and a new job.. 

I would have been a lumberjack if I knew it would have fixed my marriage.. I would have lived in a single room if I knew we were happy and my wife loved me.

Further her fixing this to keep the family together is NOT the answer.. Fixing this because she loves you is, but for the sake of the family is total Bullsh1t and just delaying the inevitable of another affair.

Try Spokeo to search for this mans wife..

Search his facebook and look to see if he is friends with his wife or in laws, Try to get her maiden name and work it around that way. Heck even if you have to tell his in laws, just something to out him to his family..


----------



## duped333

NSTC: So VERY sorry to hear all of this.

"Shaggy" hit this directly on the head. I was in management for a governmental agency for many years, and damage control was EXTREMELY important if you wanted to retain a valued employee. Sadly, if the manager does not want the hassle of formal proceedings (and believe me, it's a HUGE PITA) he absolutely pulled BOTH of them in and made them very aware of what they had at stake, professionally, that is. He could give a rats a#$ about their respective marriages. The ONLY hope you have, is to listen to the previous good advice...contact the OMW. Not asap, but NOW.
Again, I am so very sorry that you are here.


----------



## rrrbbbttt

NEWSFLASH: She stated she cannot ensure something will not happen.

At this point in time, the office gets contacted and told about the affair, if this POS is a Superior he needs to be fired. 

Your wife quits her job and/or you file for Divorce.

She needs to give access to all her passwords and accounts, NOW.

If you keep being the guy who lets it happen and then you react you may be raising another man's child after this trip, and saying oh well, she told me this could happen.


----------



## Garm

I am in a similar situation. My wife cheated on me for years even while we had 2 babies at home. It has been 5 months since DDay and I finally understand that she does not love me and it looks like those feelings are gone forever. I am a SAHD so I am trapped in limbo. I exposed the affair to everyone and blew it out of the water and I'm glad I did. Fortunately my wife's affair was not at her workplace. 
I will never understand how women who have young children could be so evil. I'm sorry you are here. It is the worst experience I've ever had. I hope you are in a better position to heal than I am.


----------



## badmemory

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Interesting you should say that. I mentioned I was looking into flights to be with her for those few nights. We could go and and see the sights when she's not working, etc.
> 
> *She said, no, that's really not necessary - it's all under control.*
> 
> Okay.


You've got to be kidding me OP. *You're* the one who decides if it's under control, not her. *You* are the betrayed spouse.

Right now, your approach should be that *you* will call the shots and if she doesn't like it, you are done with her.

If *she* doesn't accept *all* of the consequences you've been aptly advised to give her, *you* need to be packing your bags.

If she wants to avoid having to quit her job, *she* needs to provide you with documented evidence that there will be NO contact with OM. If she can't or won't; *she* either quits her job or you're out.

If you can't track this OM down to expose him, *she* needs to give you that information. If she won't, you're out.

She will give you all her passwords. If not - I bet you can guess by now.

Wake up. You are fighting for your marriage and coming off like a whipped puppy - and this makes you all the less attractive to her.

*You* have to be willing to end your marriage to have a "chance" at saving it. Until you embrace that notion, you have little chance for a successful R.


----------



## Chaparral

Google OM's name, linkedin, facebook every social site you can find. Try the sites in the US, assuming you are from the states, that you can look up his name, email address, phone number. Many of these sites like spokeo.com have information on relatives.


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## Garm

The best advice I can give you after my experience the past 5 months is this: don't lose your cool. Your wife does not have any romantic feelings for you anymore and you have to accept that. If you lose your cool she will use that against you and make you look like the bad guy.


----------



## Jambri

Let me get this straight. She cheated on you for months, doesn't think it's repairable and can't guarantee she won't do it again.

And you're still with her?

Grow some balls and do what needs to be done dude. If you have no respect for yourself how the hell do you expect her to?

Get a lawyer and toss her.


----------



## warlock07

> Sex life has been almost non-existent since the birth of our daughter as well.


Who's choice was it? Did she tell you how long it has been going on?

have you considered a paternity test?


----------



## tom67

warlock07 said:


> Sex life has been almost non-existent since the birth of our daughter as well.
> 
> Who's choice was it? Did she tell you how long it has been going on?
> 
> have you considered a paternity test?


You may want to consider this. You can't believe a thing she says now.


----------



## warlock07

One repeated theme I notice is the amount of trust you have in her. Every post you mention this in one way or the other. Why is that?



> She then burst into tears, repeating, "I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. What have I done?"
> 
> It was sincere. There was no attempt to minimise, blame-shift or deny. She told me they'd been chatting for months, but physical for two months (not just one week - my radar was out a bit there). I've never known my wife to lie about anything, and I don't think she spoke a word of a lie that day.





> She said, no, that's really not necessary - it's all under control.





> I just received an email from him stating that my wife had told him what had transpired in the past few days, and had requested that she be excused from all overseas travel while we sort out our problems. She actually handed herself into the school principal and gave herself detention.
> 
> My gut was right on this one - I'm encouraged by this display of integrity. She had no way of knowing that this would get back to me.


----------



## Madman1

Here is the deal you get all passwords!

Changing a password is a deal breaker.

then follow the advice here.

its time tested, over and again.

be a strong man of action!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Thank you so much for your replies. I haven't had time to review and analyse everything, but I will.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Ok, I've read everything, and there's not a response that I haven't agreed with to some extent.

I just spoke on the phone with my wife (she's at home, I'm away on a language course), and I can't help but feel the sincerity in what she's saying. If I'm wrong, I'll be come straight back here and let you know. 

I know her manager. I know my wife. I spoke with both of them seperately - today - and there is no reason for me to believe that there is a conspiracy between them to allow the A to continue. She was open to her manager about the A. She even complained to me about the lack of tissues in his office.

I see two possibilities:
1. She's lying, and her manager is lying to me (yes it's a very reputable company). There is an ongoing conspiracy to allow this to happen.

2. She's telling the truth. So is her manager. This is completely backed up by her travel plans.

I don't see the need to go nuclear on anything. I see a way forward for us. She has been a POS - totally agree. But I don't see the need to blow up her career to save our marriage. The OM doesn't even live in our country. The only time she gets to see OM is when both of them happen to be on business trips into the same location. She has voluntarily asked her manager to be excused from such trips until we have spent some time counselling. Our home city is the same city that OM lives in, so returning there with my wife to save our marriage won't work.

I actually think we're on the right course.

Can anyone let me know if I've let something important out? We need to work with a counselor (yet to be engaged), but I don't see any sense in nuking anything.


----------



## badmemory

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I actually think we're on the right course.
> 
> *Can anyone let me know if I've let something important out?* We need to work with a counselor (yet to be engaged), but I don't see any sense in nuking anything.


Sure, be happy to. 

1 - Passwords? Has she given them to you? Has she agreed to complete transparency?

2 - Exposing to OM's wife? Have you found him? If not, will she give you that information? Exposure is a time sensitive must do.

3 - What about contact with OM on business trips "after" counseling? This can't be a temporary demand. It has to be permanent. Nothing less should be acceptable to you.


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## Chaparral

It might help if we knew what countries we were dealing with. For example, I am assuming you are from the US but we have posters from all over the world.


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## NeverSawThisComing

Chaparral said:


> It might help if we knew what countries we were dealing with. For example, I am assuming you are from the US but we have posters from all over the world.


Australia -> Hong Kong.


----------



## Hicks

What is missing:

-- She has to agree to No More Contact and knows that if you find contact that she does not report to you that you will be filing for divorce
-- She has to agree to send a letter to him stating she wants no more contact (look up no contact letters on this site for further information)
-- You want her email and phone password immeidately
-- She agrees that you will monitor her email, texting, phones
-- You tell her that if you find an different cell phone or email account you will get divorced
-- You expose to the OMW as soon as possible, with proof. This is your #1 priority which will cause the OM to start focusing on his marriage and stop pursuing your wife
-- She agrees to let you have access to her WORK email, since it would be easy for them to communcate through it.
-- She agrees that she will NEVER travel on a business trip when he will be there ever again.

The biggest mistake you can make is to "nice" your way out of things. You have to give her some hard challenges, and see if she does them willingly, or fights you on them... That tells you where you are at.


----------



## Dyokemm

OP,

You need to expose this POS to his BW immediately. If this scumbag is allowed to slink by with no consequences from what he did, then he will try to get with your W again when she finally resumes a normal travel/trip schedule after you two make progress in counseling as a couple.

You must blow the A up on his end at a minimum. Make him scramble to save his M and get his W's eyes as an extra set watching this situation to make sure it does not restart.

This is a MINIMUM. 

There is a reason everyone is telling you that the job has to go. This is because the A will never be truly in the past for your WW if she sees POS at work on a fairly regular basis, and there will always be that chance it starts again because of this situation.

The best solution is she leaves the job ASAP.

This serves TWO really good purposes.

1) It removes WW from the proximity of the A environment and the POSOM.

2) Losing her dream job will provide a valuable lesson to your WW about why you DO NOT CHEAT in marriage.

I'm concerned that if your WW does not suffer a severe enough consequence for what she has done, she will eventually be tempted to do it again.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

badmemory said:


> Sure, be happy to.
> 
> 1 - Passwords? Has she given them to you? Has she agreed to complete transparency?
> 
> 2 - Exposing to OM's wife? Have you found him? If not, will she give you that information? Exposure is a time sensitive must do.
> 
> 3 - What about contact with OM on business trips "after" counseling? This can't be a temporary demand. It has to be permanent. Nothing less should be acceptable to you.


All totally valid points:
1. Passwords - I haven't requested her new passwords yet. I'm counting on my early return to catch her out if there is anything to hide. I have insisted that transparency will be key to our ongoing relationship, but not specifically mentioned passwords.

2. OM's wife. I'm not convinced that killing his family is paramount at this moment. I have emailed him directly, saying that any further contact with my wife will result in the affair emails being sent directly to his wife.

3. After-counseling business trips. Really good point. I'm yet to decide on a course of action there. I have a few weeks to decide, but I will have a zero tolerance to any misbehaviour. I have the details and documents required to list for divorce. This would be my next course of action if the A continued.


----------



## tom67

You shouldn't have warned him now he can tell his wife that you're the crazy jealous husband of a coworker. What do you mean you don't want to ruin his marriage he ruined yours plus she has a right to know, he could have an STD and give it to her, ugh.


----------



## Hicks

You will hear this from everyone, and eventually you will know that you should have told his wife.

YOU are not killing his family. HE killed his family. YOU are just protecting YOUR family and YOUR children and YOUR life that he is more than willing to destroy. And, by giving your wife or him a heads up about exposure, what he will do is go tell his wife that some CRAZY GUY thinks he is bonking CRAZY GUY's wife, and if he ever contacts you just know he is an insane crazy person.


----------



## tom67

Emails can be intercepted you have to get a phone number jmo.


----------



## Chaparral

Is she still going to work early?


----------



## Garm

If you don't tell the OM's wife you're letting the OM get away with messing around with your wife with no consequences. His wife deserves to know. It really will help stop the affair too.


----------



## Chaparral

There is some very good info for new posters here.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read-3.html


----------



## warlock07

Can anyone link the "Mistakes BS make after the D-day". thread

Even southsideirish's thread would be good read


----------



## Chaparral

If I were you I would contact a PI in your hometown to get the contact info for the OM's wife.

here is a post of the wayward spouse instructions. It is recommended to study them with your spouse. The reason for that is to carefully watch her reactions to see how sincere she is.

Print this off:

_ Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.

Rejoice in your renewed commitment to spend your lives together in happiness. Celebrate it together regularly! _


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## bfree

NSTC,

I know it feels as if you are becoming a complete a-hole if you tell his wife. I understand how you don't want to ruin his marriage and that it feels to you like revenge. There may also be hesitation on your part because you are concerned about a backlash from your wife if you expose. One thing I'd like to mention is that it often happens that the interloper resumes contact after a period of time. You have no way of monitoring their work emails nor do you know about any other ways they may have communicated or will communicate in the future. It may indeed be that your wife is sincere and wants to work on the relationship with you. But you KNOW she has deep feelings for this man in spite of the distance and in spite of his and her marital situation. First thing I'd want to know if I were in your position is whether this relationship was ongoing before you moved. You said that his home city is where you used to live. Could they have started something before you moved away from that city? Second thing I'd be concerned about is this. You don't expose to his wife. After a time he starts to feel comfortable that you are a coward and he becomes emboldened. He then contacts your wife during your reconciliation. This causes added pressure and tension derailing the reconciliation and causes a rift between the two of you. That rift causes resentment and you eventually divorce. That has happened before and it will happen again. It is one of the reasons that most here are advocating exposure. Even if your wife doesn't become involved with him again future contact can and will erode the feelings for you she may be working on strengthening and will cause you to once again relive all these terrible emotions that you are feeling. Exposure insulates you and your wife from these possibilites and gives you a better chance of recovering your marriage. Think about it.


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## workindad

Contact OM's wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CASE_Sensitive

By exposing to OMW you are increasing the chances of your marriage surviving. You want to put out this fire, use a tsunami, not a sprinkle.


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## badmemory

NeverSawThisComing said:


> 2. OM's wife. I'm not convinced that killing his family is paramount at this moment. I have emailed him directly, saying that any further contact with my wife will result in the affair emails being sent directly to his wife.


OP,

You came here for advice. It's wise to sift through all of it and then make a determination to fit you own circumstances. After all, you could post a hundred pages and still not capture the nuances of your marital situation.

However, exposing to OM's wife has been a consistent suggestion from me and all of the posters. If you were going to ignore any of the advice, this would be the last one you'd want to ignore - for the reasons already stated. 

Simply put - If you value your marriage, you'll be making a huge mistake if you don't expose him to his wife.

Good luck to you.


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## tom67

badmemory said:


> OP,
> 
> You came here for advice. It's wise to sift through all of it and then make a determination to fit you own circumstances. After all, you could post a hundred pages and still not capture the nuances of your marital situation.
> 
> However, exposing to OM's wife has been a consistent suggestion from me and all of the posters. If you were going to ignore any of the advice, this would be the last one you'd want to ignore - for the reasons already stated.
> 
> Simply put - If you value your marriage, you'll be making a huge mistake if you don't expose him to his wife.
> 
> Good luck to you.


I hope you do this for your sake.


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## CASE_Sensitive

If you have any qualms, just remind yourself OM f'ed your wife knowing she is married to you, the mother of your children and did it multiple times. Why do you owe this F'er a single moment of family tranquility knowing what you're going through? Your wife's concern should just be about saving you two, not sparing this guy.


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## tom67

If there is backlash after you expose to his wife then you know that the affair isn't really over. You are setting yourself up for some real heartache if you don't. Sex life was dead since your daughter was born. How old is your daughter? Going to work early to kiss him? Yea sure.


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## bfree

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I don't see the need to blow up her career to save our marriage.


I'd like to harken back to this statement for a minute.


Why not? What is more important? Her career or your marriage?

I'd like to point out something to you and if this sounds harsh I apologize.

Your marriage and your wife's affair is not special. To the posters on TAM it's been there done that. I'm sure to you it seems unique. It seems like the only thing in the world right now. But objectively, your story just isn't that special. Now I'm not saying this to be cruel. On the contrary. I'm saying this because I want you to understand that many have been here that have gone through EXACTLY what you are going through right now. We know what works and we know what will end up destroying your marriage. Machievelli already said it. It's counterintuitive and you probably won't listen. Then months down the line you'll remember what was said and you'll have that aha moment as you are meeting with your lawyer to go over the divorce details.

Your wife had a workplace affair. The advice is almost always she quits the job. You've already rejected that advice.

You've been advised to expose to the OMW. You've already rejected that as well.

Why are you trying to reinvent the wheel? Why are you thinking you can succeed without doing what has proven to have worked in the past? What makes you so special?


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## ody360

Pretty much everyone has it covered. My 2 cents the guys wife' she deserves to know. She needs to now what type of husband she has. It isn't your job to destroy there marriage but your not destroying it. That has already been done the omw just doesn't know yet. You just need to ask yourself if the other mans wife caught her husband 2 months ago cheating. Wouldn't you want to know. Lets say you buy everything your WS is selling. Poof 3 months from now you find out through OMW that she just caught them having a affair. Are you gonna say yeah i new about it 2 months ago but i thought it was over, but instead in went majorly underground. By the other BS finding out it will almost 100% eliminate the chances of you getting the gut wrench all over again. She deserves to know. Like you deserve to know.


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## nogutsnoglory

:iagree:


Hicks said:


> You will hear this from everyone, and eventually you will know that you should have told his wife.
> 
> YOU are not killing his family. HE killed his family. YOU are just protecting YOUR family and YOUR children and YOUR life that he is more than willing to destroy. And, by giving your wife or him a heads up about exposure, what he will do is go tell his wife that some CRAZY GUY thinks he is bonking CRAZY GUY's wife, and if he ever contacts you just know he is an insane crazy person.


:iagree::iagree: TELL THE WIFE :iagree::iagree:

why does he get to F*** your wife and get away with it. If his wife found out wouldn't you want to know?


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## Iver

You are blowing it. 

Sorry to be blunt but contacting the OMs wife is a MUST if you want to try to save your marriage. 

1. It makes it harder for the affair to re-ignite
2. The misery you inflict on the OM will make the affair less of a positive/fun experience for your wife - it will instead be seen as negative/ugly. (This will also be a good reality check for future affairs.)

It may be too late since you gave him a heads up - he will most likely tell his wife you are a wacko husband she should ignore.

I'll just finish by saying you are being really nice to the OM. 

Remember what they say about nice guys.


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## tom67

Iver said:


> You are blowing it.
> 
> Sorry to be blunt but contacting the OMs wife is a MUST if you want to try to save your marriage.
> 
> 1. It makes it harder for the affair to re-ignite
> 2. The misery you inflict on the OM will make the affair less of a positive/fun experience for your wife - it will instead be seen as negative/ugly. (This will also be a good reality check for future affairs.)
> 
> It may be too late since you gave him a heads up - he will most likely tell his wife you are a wacko husband she should ignore.
> 
> I'll just finish by saying you are being really nice to the OM.
> 
> Remember what they say about nice guys.


:iagree::banghead:


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## TDSC60

Multiple betrayed husband are/have been where you are now. Almost without exception, the one who rationalize NOT telling OMs wife have found out what a horrible mistake that was. 

Almost all wish they had told the wife as soon as they found out what was going on.

His wife deserves to know what a POS he is. And it is not YOU who would be causing strife in his family by telling OM wife - he and your wife have already done a really good job of destroying two marriages.

OM wife deserves the same facts that you have and deserves to make the same informed decision that you now have to make.


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## carmen ohio

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Ok, I've read everything, and there's not a response that I haven't agreed with to some extent.
> 
> I just spoke on the phone with my wife (she's at home, I'm away on a language course), and I can't help but feel the sincerity in what she's saying. If I'm wrong, I'll be come straight back here and let you know.
> 
> I know her manager. I know my wife. I spoke with both of them seperately - today - and there is no reason for me to believe that there is a conspiracy between them to allow the A to continue. She was open to her manager about the A. She even complained to me about the lack of tissues in his office.
> 
> I see two possibilities:
> 1. She's lying, and her manager is lying to me (yes it's a very reputable company). There is an ongoing conspiracy to allow this to happen.
> 
> 2. She's telling the truth. So is her manager. This is completely backed up by her travel plans.
> 
> I don't see the need to go nuclear on anything. I see a way forward for us. She has been a POS - totally agree. But I don't see the need to blow up her career to save our marriage. The OM doesn't even live in our country. The only time she gets to see OM is when both of them happen to be on business trips into the same location. She has voluntarily asked her manager to be excused from such trips until we have spent some time counselling. Our home city is the same city that OM lives in, so returning there with my wife to save our marriage won't work.
> 
> I actually think we're on the right course.
> 
> Can anyone let me know if I've let something important out? We need to work with a counselor (yet to be engaged), but I don't see any sense in nuking anything.



Dear NSTC,

You came here asking for advice. You are getting sound advice from people who have dealt with hundreds of situations just like yours. You have heard that fixing your marriage would be harder than you thought. You don't like this advice and therefore you have chosen to ignore much of it.

If you continue to ignore it, the odds are strong that your marriage will fail. If you follow the advice, there is a decent chance that you can save your marriage.

Expose her affair to the OMW, your family and her family. File for divorce or at least start the process so that she realizes the gravity of her situation. Get back to work; a SAHD cannot hold on to a high-powered woman who has shown her willingness to look elsewhere for sexual gratification. Force her to choose between her marriage/family and the single life. Let her know that you are ready, willing and able to live without her. Do all things and you stand a good chance of keeping your family together. Take the easy road and you have little chance, even if in the short run things seem to improve.

Whatever you decide, keep posting on TAM/CWI. We are here for you.

Good luck.


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## Chaparral

Did he say he did not want to tell omw? I thought he hasn't been able to locate her yet.

The reason for exposing is to make the om forget your wife while hauling his own nuts out of the fire. Another reason is to have another set of eyes on the other end watching.

DO NOT ACCEPT your wife back to quickly. She has to think you are ready to dump her . If she continues to take you for granted, your family is toast.

Read mmslp and get your respect back.


----------



## Dyokemm

Chapparral,

Yeah, he said in his last post (or the one before that) that he didn't know if he thought it was necessary for him to nuke their marriage since things were progressing so well with his WW and the steps she was taking at work.

He is in a little bit of denial about how easy it will be for this POS to go after his W again after she goes back to a 'normal' travel schedule after they 'work on things'.

I told him POS will definitely try again if he allows him to slink around with no consequences for banging his wife.

Don't know if he's paying attention to that advice, which he is getting from pretty much everyone, or if he is afraid it will lead to some type of backlash from his W.


----------



## Dyokemm

And worse yet, he already contacted the POS and told him he will tell his wife if he attempts further contact with his W.

Completely tipped him off that he is not going to suffer any exposure for what he has done so far, and of course provided him with the opportunity to preempt OP by telling his W about this 'psycho' H of one of his co-workers.

Big time fail on that.


----------



## lenzi

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I don't see the need to go nuclear on anything. I see a way forward for us. She has been a POS - totally agree. But I don't see the need to blow up her career to save our marriage. The OM doesn't even live in our country. The only time she gets to see OM is when both of them happen to be on business trips into the same location. She has voluntarily asked her manager to be excused from such trips until we have spent some time counselling. Our home city is the same city that OM lives in, so returning there with my wife to save our marriage won't work.
> 
> I actually think we're on the right course.


You need to realize that most posters who reply to you have been victims of infidelity and tend to identify with you as the victim and project your wife to be the proverbial bad guy.

It's no different from a good movie with good character and plot development where you just can't wait for the bad guy to get nailed in the end. Most on this board will say "we have a lot of experience" and the only way to save your marriage is to go nuclear and expose.

I have read where exposure "might" work as a tool to break up an affair and "suddenly snap the cheater out of the fog" at which point they come running back begging for forgiveness and eventually all the problems are fixed and the happy couple goes forward with a successful marriage- although I think that's rather rare.

In your case? She's apologetic and remorseful and appears to be doing what she needs to do to make things right. Exposure won't do anything other than piss her off, and if she loses her job and you ultimately divorce, it will probably cost you in support payments you'll need to give her since she's unemployed. 

As far as your situation goes, I think that for the most part you've got it covered; except for the fact that you forgave way too easily. 



Chaparral said:


> DO NOT ACCEPT your wife back to quickly. She has to think you are ready to dump her . If she continues to take you for granted, your family is toast.


^^This

She was never in any danger of you kicking her to the curb. So what's to stop her from doing it again someday? 

Even if you KNOW you'll forgive her, it's important to let her sweat it out. Don't be so quick to say "ok, I'll forgive you because I love you". That's like rewarding the dog with a treat after it's crapped on the rug.

Also be aware that if she hadn't been caught this thing would still be going on. She quit the affair only because you found out and doesn't want to go through the inconvenience and expense of a divorce and the life changes that go with it. She certainly wasn't thinking about you and your feelings when she screwed this guy.

She deceived and betrayed you in the ultimate possible way. If you do reconcile know that you will never, ever be able to trust her. You'll be sleeping with one eye open for the rest of your time together.

I sure hope she's worth it.


----------



## Dyokemm

Lenzi,

I think the most disturbing thing about how quickly he is moving forward with R with his WW is the fact that she told him she could not promise him nothing would happen if she saw this POS.

While she gets credit for talking to boss to try and avoid seeing POSOM, the fact that she stills feels such a deep attraction to the A makes him moving to R so fast a real risk IMO.

I think he should expose POS to his wife to try and make sure this A is blown up. Otherwise this scumbag will just bide his time and keep trying to entice her back into the A.

Right now he has nothing to lose since OP is refusing to let POS's W know about the A.


----------



## NaturalHeart

I think this may be the one time where I've read a post and don't understand why people are pushing him to tell the other mans wife. He has made it clear that his wife immediately started making changes showing him she wants her marriage. I'm clearly reading immediate progress and he clearly said that he almost dang near neglected her into the arms of another man... not that I condone it but once she was confronted it seemed as if she immediately snapped out of it.

OP Please look at what is best for your marriage and not turn this into a messy situation that will do more hurt to your marriage than good. Some people have been badly badly burned and dang near need counseling so they can stop seeing their cheating ex spouse in the eyes of every post they damn read GOSH


----------



## lenzi

Dyokemm said:


> Lenzi,
> 
> I think the most disturbing thing about how quickly he is moving forward with R with his WW is the fact that she told him she could not promise him nothing would happen if she saw this POS.


Right. I read that and forgot to address it in my post.

That's a huge red flag.

"Honey I'm really sorry I screwed the guy but I can't promise you it won't happen again".

"That's ok, I forgive you, this affair is partially my fault".

That just won't cut it.


----------



## Dyokemm

NaturalHeart,

I think you are mistaken my friend. 

I agree his WW is making some positive steps, but she has also admitted to the fact that she's not sure she could stop something from happening if POS continues to pursue her.

And he will be able to safely continue to make these attempts to re-seduce her into the A if he knows he has no consequences to worry about.


----------



## Cubby

TDSC60 said:


> Multiple betrayed husband are/have been where you are now. Almost without exception, the one who rationalize NOT telling OMs wife have found out what a horrible mistake that was.
> 
> Almost all wish they had told the wife as soon as they found out what was going on.
> 
> His wife deserves to know what a POS he is. And it is not YOU who would be causing strife in his family by telling OM wife - he and your wife have already done a really good job of destroying two marriages.
> 
> OM wife deserves the same facts that you have and deserves to make the same informed decision that you now have to make.


:iagree: In fact, I'll go as far as saying if you don't let the OM's wife know, you're.....uh......I hate to call you a nasty name because I realize you're hurting but it's a real a-hole move not to tell her. Just imagine her living her life in the dark, thinking everything's fine with her marriage....or maybe things aren't going well in her marriage and she's beating herself up, thinking it's her fault, etc......I don't think I've ever read on this forum that a betrayed spouse wished they never found the truth about their wayward spouse. Wishing it didn't happen isn't the same as wishing they didn't know the truth.


----------



## lenzi

NaturalHeart said:


> I think this may be the one time where I've read a post and don't understand why people are pushing him to tell the other mans wife. He has made it clear that his wife immediately started making changes showing him she wants her marriage. I'm clearly reading immediate progress and he clearly said that he almost dang near neglected her into the arms of another man... not that I condone it but once she was confronted it seemed as if she immediately snapped out of it.
> 
> OP Please look at what is best for your marriage and not turn this into a messy situation that will do more hurt to your marriage than good. Some people have been badly badly burned and dang near need counseling so they can stop seeing their cheating ex spouse in the eyes of every post they damn read GOSH


Is the large font really necessary?

Let your posts stand on their own merit.

It's quality not QUANTITY


----------



## Cubby

NaturalHeart said:


> I think this may be the one time where I've read a post and don't understand why people are pushing him to tell the other mans wife. He has made it clear that his wife immediately started making changes showing him she wants her marriage. I'm clearly reading immediate progress and he clearly said that he almost dang near neglected her into the arms of another man... not that I condone it but once she was confronted it seemed as if she immediately snapped out of it.
> 
> OP Please look at what is best for your marriage and not turn this into a messy situation that will do more hurt to your marriage than good. Some people have been badly badly burned and dang near need counseling so they can stop seeing their cheating ex spouse in the eyes of every post they damn read GOSH


No, it has nothing to do with, as you say, being badly burned and dang near need counseling....it's about being a decent, moral person.


----------



## Cubby

Now I wish I didn't quote that "shouting, loud" quote. It's ugly to look at.


----------



## tom67

I think Elvis has left the building.


----------



## Dyokemm

If there ever was a 'textbook' case of a situation where exposing the AP to their BS was a vital step to trying to save a M, this might be it.

OP's WW has admitted she is weak vis a vis the OM. She seems to be willing to try to help save the M, but openly concedes that she is vulnerable to POS's potential manipulations.

He MUST get this scumbag away from his W if he is to have any chance to save his M. The best way for OP to accomplish this is to expose to the other BS.

POSOM will be too busy trying to save his own a** to worry about trying to bed OP's W again.

And OP will have a potential ally in helping to monitor NC to make sure this crap doesn't start up again.


----------



## wilderness

Forget about your courses, they mean nothing compared to what you are facing. Anytime your wife goes anywhere, make sure you are there. Even if it's only out for a few drinks for 3 hours.


----------



## Cubby

Dyokemm said:


> If there ever was a 'textbook' case of a situation where exposing the AP to their BS was a vital step to trying to save a M, this might be it.
> 
> OP's WW has admitted she is weak vis a vis the OM. She seems to be willing to try to help save the M, but openly concedes that she is vulnerable to POS's potential manipulations.
> 
> He MUST get this scumbag away from his W if he is to have any chance to save his M. The best way for OP to accomplish this is to expose to the other BS.
> 
> POSOM will be too busy trying to save his own a** to worry about trying to bed OP's W again.
> 
> And OP will have a potential ally in helping to monitor NC to make sure this crap doesn't start up again.


And it's also "textbook" as to the BS' reluctance to out the POS. I don't know what it is, but maybe the BS just wants to quickly get things back to normal and not let things become messier and more complicated. The pain is so great for him, he wishes he can push the rewind button back to when things were fine, so he eagerly believes wife's assurances that she wants to save the marriage and get everything back to normal. Just quickly sweep this crap under the rug and get back to normal. Big mistake.


----------



## tom67

You can lead a horse to water. ..oh well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dyokemm

Cubby,

Yes a lot of BS react to the trauma of infidelity by immediately seeking to 'get back' to some previous time in the M where they think things were ideal or good.

What they fail to realize is that there is NEVER any going back. Te old relationship is dead. The WS destroyed it completely with their actions.

Any future relationship will have to be built anew around the new reality the couple faces.

The cheating cannot be undone as if it never occurred.

But many BS are afraid to admit and face this when the pain is fresh. 

Unfortunately, some of them never come out of this denial and they desperately try to sweep the A under the rugs as quickly as possible in order to 'save' the M and get it back to the good times as fast as possible.


----------



## lenzi

tom67 said:


> I think Elvis has left the building.


Why.. because he hasn't logged on in 6 hours?

Some people don't spend all day on the pc like we do.


----------



## badmemory

lenzi said:


> Exposure won't do anything other than piss her off


Other than:

-Reducing the possibility of the A continuing while the OM is dealing with having his @ss handed to him by his wife.

-Gaining a vital set of eyes and ears to monitor OM. 

-OM's wife deserving to know who she is married to, just as much as any other BS does.

-Giving the WS another deserved consequence; adding to the list of things that might make her think twice before she cheats again.

And on another point, I would rather take majority advice from those who have experience in dealing with infidelity and exposure, (especially those who have dealt with it and are in R) - rather than those who haven't, that are theorizing the best approach.

If I am projecting the "bad guy" image on the WS because of my past experience; it's only because I can recognize how devastating their betrayal is. No apologies for that.


----------



## 3putt

badmemory said:


> Other than:
> 
> -Reducing the possibility of the A continuing while the OM is dealing with having his @ss handed to him by his wife.
> 
> -Gaining a vital set of eyes and ears to monitor OM.
> 
> -OM's wife deserving to know who she is married to, just as much as any other BS does.
> 
> -Giving the WS another deserved consequence; adding to the list of things that might make her think twice before she cheats again.
> 
> And on another point, I would rather take majority advice from those who have experience in dealing with infidelity and exposure, (especially those who have dealt with it and are in R) - rather than those who haven't, that are theorizing the best approach.
> 
> If I am projecting the "bad guy" image on the WS because of my past experience; it's only because I can recognize how devastating their betrayal is. No apologies for that.


I, for the life of me, don't understand why this is so difficult for some to understand. Well stated, badmemory.


----------



## lenzi

badmemory said:


> Other than:
> 
> -Reducing the possibility of the A continuing while the OM is dealing with having his @ss handed to him by his wife.
> 
> -Gaining a vital set of eyes and ears to monitor OM.
> 
> -OM's wife deserving to know who she is married to, just as much as any other BS does.
> 
> -Giving the WS another deserved consequence; adding to the list of things that might make her think twice before she cheats again.
> 
> And on another point, I would rather take majority advice from those who have experience in dealing with infidelity and exposure, (especially those who have dealt with it and are in R) - rather than those who haven't, that are theorizing the best approach.


Ok, I concede, all good points.

I mis-posted (or at least, was ambiguous) when I suggested there is nothing useful about exposure, I meant_ that in this particular instance_ it probably won't be effective. But that's probably poor advice on my part, given that wifey can't promise she won't screw him again and the Op commends her for her 'honesty'. That one just left me shaking my head. "Thanks for being honest and telling me you just might screw him again", let's move on with counseling.." 

So I retract. You want to try to save this? Blow the whole thing up. She cannot be trusted AND she will be with him again. 

That much said..

Generally speaking, the potential drawbacks of exposure must also be considered along with the possible benefits.

I maintain, if divorce is likely or inevitable then exposure will cause more problems than it might solve.

I have posted that exposure can be a useful tool for the betrayed spouse who will do anything to try and get the cheater back.


----------



## dogman

It's funny if you watch people. They hear a fire alarm and they seem like they refuse to react. They sit and look around and say "humph, must be another drill" then they sit and end up in a situation that has less options then if they reacted immediately.

In this case if the OP would react immediately with informing the OMW, and then get complete transparency and a solid set of demands before he continued R, he would be in a position of strength. 
He has to be prepared to end the marriage, until then he will be losing in R and there may be more damage done that he won't be able to get over.

The fact that she said she can't promise something won't happen again with the other man is proof positive that she feels no threat of loss or repercussions from her husband. She can do what she wants and he can't stop her. 

He's powerless and he has to get his power back. Or it's over.


----------



## tom67

dogman said:


> It's funny if you watch people. They hear a fire alarm and they seem like they refuse to react. They sit and look around and say "humph, must be another drill" then they sit and end up in a situation that has less options then if they reacted immediately.
> 
> In this case if the OP would react immediately with informing the OMW, and then get complete transparency and a solid set of demands before he continued R, he would be in a position of strength.
> He has to be prepared to end the marriage, until then he will be losing in R and there may be more damage done that he won't be able to get over.
> 
> The fact that she said she can't promise something won't happen again with the other man is proof positive that she feels no threat of loss or repercussions from her husband. She can do what she wants and he can't stop her.
> 
> He's powerless and he has to get his power back. Or it's over.


BINGO!:iagree::iagree:


----------



## SaltInWound

dogman said:


> He's powerless and he has to get his power back. Or it's over.


I made this mistake as many others have too. He was powerless the day he stopped working, thinking that supporting upward mobility of her career was actually benefiting both of them. As long as he is depending on her income, she has the upper hand. What is the first bit of advise that happens here when a person finds out their non-working spouse is cheating? Cut off the finances. What keeps the cheating spouse from doing the same to their non-working BS spouse? Things are trickier because they are in a foreign country. The law doesn't always look out for spouses. 

I advise him to find the child's passport and hide it from the wife. Same goes for his and any of his other documents that prove he is legal in that country as a resident.


----------



## Iver

I don't see this mentioned so the standard question needs to be asked...has she been tested for STD's? And given you the results in writing?

If you try to tell me they used protection I will be very disappointed in you.


----------



## Chaparral

tom67 said:


> I think Elvis has left the building.


He's in Hong Kong. Quite a time difference.


----------



## tom67

Chaparral said:


> He's in Hong Kong. Quite a time difference.


Only a day aheadok a brain fart


----------



## Shaggy

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Ok, I've read everything, and there's not a response that I haven't agreed with to some extent.
> 
> I just spoke on the phone with my wife (she's at home, I'm away on a language course), and I can't help but feel the sincerity in what she's saying. If I'm wrong, I'll be come straight back here and let you know.
> 
> I know her manager. I know my wife. I spoke with both of them seperately - today - and there is no reason for me to believe that there is a conspiracy between them to allow the A to continue. She was open to her manager about the A. She even complained to me about the lack of tissues in his office.
> 
> I see two possibilities:
> 1. She's lying, and her manager is lying to me (yes it's a very reputable company). There is an ongoing conspiracy to allow this to happen.
> 
> 2. She's telling the truth. So is her manager. This is completely backed up by her travel plans.
> 
> I don't see the need to go nuclear on anything. I see a way forward for us. She has been a POS - totally agree. But I don't see the need to blow up her career to save our marriage. The OM doesn't even live in our country. The only time she gets to see OM is when both of them happen to be on business trips into the same location. She has voluntarily asked her manager to be excused from such trips until we have spent some time counselling. Our home city is the same city that OM lives in, so returning there with my wife to save our marriage won't work.
> 
> I actually think we're on the right course.
> 
> Can anyone let me know if I've let something important out? We need to work with a counselor (yet to be engaged), but I don't see any sense in nuking anything.


You nicely explain away your wife's affair and affair partner - yet your explanation doesn't deal with the real fact that despite all your rationalizations she did develop an emotional relationship with him, and she has had sex with him willingly by choice numerous times. Right now,despite all your arguments, he is more important to her than you are.

That is why you need to deal with the hard facts of the situation and not what you want to believe it to be.

Btw - demand a polygraph from your wife.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Hey everyone, thank you so much for the replies and discussion here. Its really helping me to distil my thoughts on the situation. I am totally prepared to lose her. Cant write much now as I'm in class. I have to continue my course as it's part of my plan to regain my power. The fluency I'm gaining in this intense course will have me sitting in a job interview answering questions in mandarin confidently and getting the job I need. Ill be back in a few hours.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Hey everyone, thank you so much for the replies and discussion here. Its really helping me to distil my thoughts on the situation. I am totally prepared to lose her. Cant write much now as I'm in class. I have to continue my course as it's part of my plan to regain my power. The fluency I'm gaining in this intense course will have me sitting in a job interview answering questions in mandarin confidently and getting the job I need. Ill be back in a few hours.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for replying and coming back. It's your life take all the info and make an informed decision and I am truly sorry.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

I spoke with her tonight, and I don't sense any optimism for the future in her voice. All I'm hearing is that we should go to counselling for the sake of our family. Maybe we can work things out. I said if she doesn't want to be in this for us (her and I), then maybe we should just skip the counselling and proceed with divorce.

She resisted this and said that we should do counselling. Maybe we can work it out, she says. I don't think this is about the OM. It's about our broken marriage.

I want her back (I still love her), and I want our family to be together. I can't even think of our daughter growing up without Mum and Dad together.

I'm careful not to sound needy, hence my suggestion to her of divorce.

What's my next move? I really don't know what to do. I am intellectually prepared for divorce - I'm not in denial. I understand that it may be inevitable, but I hear her say we should do counselling, and I'm just a little bit lost at the moment. And really sad.


----------



## tom67

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I spoke with her tonight, and I don't sense any optimism for the future in her voice. All I'm hearing is that we should go to counselling for the sake of our family. Maybe we can work things out. I said if she doesn't want to be in this for us (her and I), then maybe we should just skip the counselling and proceed with divorce.
> 
> She resisted this and said that we should do counselling. Maybe we can work it out, she says. I don't think this is about the OM. It's about our broken marriage.
> 
> I want her back (I still love her), and I want our family to be together. I can't even think of our daughter growing up without Mum and Dad together.
> 
> I'm careful not to sound needy, hence my suggestion to her of divorce.
> 
> What's my next move? I really don't know what to do. I am intellectually prepared for divorce - I'm not in denial. I understand that it may be inevitable, but I hear her say we should do counselling, and I'm just a little bit lost at the moment. And really sad.


Never please consider telling the omw if it were the other way around wouldn't you want to know? I believe the lack of sex was that she was getting it from him so she ruined the marriage not you by bringing in the 3rd person.


----------



## CASE_Sensitive

Unless you have a guaranteed job lined up as a result of passing this language class, I'd suggest getting home and having real face to face time with your wife. She's still deflecting the O/M impact here, but I'd still stress to her that the marriage can be saved, you're going to give it your 110% effort, heart, strength and courage and expect the same from her...which means absolutely ensuring he is out of the picture.


----------



## nogutsnoglory

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I spoke with her tonight, and I don't sense any optimism for the future in her voice. All I'm hearing is that we should go to counselling for the sake of our family. Maybe we can work things out. I said if she doesn't want to be in this for us (her and I), then maybe we should just skip the counselling and proceed with divorce.
> 
> She resisted this and said that we should do counselling. Maybe we can work it out, she says. I don't think this is about the OM. It's about our broken marriage.
> 
> I want her back (I still love her), and I want our family to be together. I can't even think of our daughter growing up without Mum and Dad together.
> 
> I'm careful not to sound needy, hence my suggestion to her of divorce.
> 
> What's my next move? I really don't know what to do. I am intellectually prepared for divorce - I'm not in denial. I understand that it may be inevitable, but I hear her say we should do counselling, and I'm just a little bit lost at the moment. And really sad.


do what you have been told to do. Stop allowing her to live in the fog of the affair and expose it to all including the OM's wife.
Does not sound optimistic you say. Think that might have something to do with her feeling secure in the affair. If I were her I would see you as weak and not want you either. Do it for yourself and stop worrying about how it may make her feel.
Until you do what is needed for yourself you will live with regret and your marriage will not survive as she will not respect you for being a doormat. I am sorry for being harsh, I just wish you would do what is needed.
I never read a follow up to you getting full access to her e-mails either, did you ever lay that demand out there or did you fail to do that as well?


----------



## TDSC60

I think she is sorry she got caught. I think she wants to "work" on the marriage but not for the right reasons. The statement she made about not being able to guarantee nothing would happen if she saw POSOM again is very telling. This makes it obvious that OP, their child and their marriage occupy second place behind her feelings for POSOM.

I do not know what her reason for R is, maybe something to do with the job. Maybe she has been told that if she divorces and you name POSOM as AP in the divorce her job is toast.

Whatever she hopes to gain from R, it's not a marriage/family with you. 

You have to know that somewhere down the road they will cross paths again if they both remain in current jobs. It will happen eventually and by her own admission, it will not take much for her to go right back to her cheating behavior.

I do not think she suddenly "snapped out of the affair fog" - she is simply in damage control mode.


----------



## rrrbbbttt

Until the OM situation is addressed and answered there is No Marriage. 

Her choice for counseling is to Rug Sweep the Affair and make you the Fall Guy for a supposedly by her Bad Marital relationship. 

Guess what I will save you the MC money you were not a loving devoted husband, you let your work and interests take you away from your marriage. Your wife felt neglected. You need to work on it. You need to setup date night with your wife. You need to set aside time every night to have conversations and discuss what is really going on in the world and with you.

There. Saved you some money.

Now deal with the Affair.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Ok, I have the OM's name, company and a gmail address.

I've googled all of this to death and found nothing. His phone number is either unlisted or in his wifes name.

All I need is an email address for her. Any ideas?


By the way, if anyone thinks I should hold off on alerting his wife - let me know now. I'm really conflicted on this, as I think he's now out of the picture (no proof though), I think my wife is being sincere, and she is definitely scared about the potential of outing OM due to impact on his family (and yes, clearly I know about the impact on mine, but all children are innocent, including his).


----------



## Refuse to be played

PI? Give him the info you have on the OM and he'll get you his wife contact info. I think thats what Shamwow did.


----------



## tom67

Try spokeo or if you have the funds, contact a pi in their home town give him the info you have just a thought.


----------



## tom67

Please as a reminder DO NOT tell your wife until after you contact the omw. Her reaction will let you know if the affair is ongoing or not. She should not care but if she gets all mad well...


----------



## CASE_Sensitive

Repeat to yourself....O/M would still be with YOUR wife, except for random chance you found out. His wife deserves to know, and you deserve to know you're protecting your family. You didn't hurt his kids, he did when he went outside his marriage. The only ones to blame for any misery out of this are him and your wife. 

And based on his home country, I'd suggest do not send any emails until you get OMW's phone number and a chance to minimize any gas lighting.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

tom67 said:


> Please as a reminder DO NOT tell your wife until after you contact the omw. Her reaction will let you know if the affair is ongoing or not. She should not care but if she gets all mad well...


Tom, I'm sorry, but I still do not get this at all.

I am not in any kind of conflict with his kids. I'm sure they are just as beautiful and precious as my own. My marriage may be over for a number of reasons, but it has nothing to do with these kids.


----------



## tom67

Never you can do this. His kids will be fine if they divorce and it won't be your fault! There are always consequences for one's actions you, me everybody it's called life!


----------



## tom67

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Tom, I'm sorry, but I still do not get this at all.
> 
> I am not in any kind of conflict with his kids. I'm sure they are just as beautiful and precious as my own. My marriage may be over for a number of reasons, but it has nothing to do with these kids.


Ok what if he has an STD. His wife has no idea what's going on so if it was the other way around you wouldn't want to know?:scratchhead:


----------



## PreRaphaelite

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I spoke with her tonight, and I don't sense any optimism for the future in her voice. All I'm hearing is that we should go to counselling for the sake of our family. Maybe we can work things out. I said if she doesn't want to be in this for us (her and I), then maybe we should just skip the counselling and proceed with divorce.
> 
> She resisted this and said that we should do counselling. Maybe we can work it out, she says. I don't think this is about the OM. It's about our broken marriage.
> 
> I want her back (I still love her), and I want our family to be together. I can't even think of our daughter growing up without Mum and Dad together.
> 
> I'm careful not to sound needy, hence my suggestion to her of divorce.
> 
> What's my next move? I really don't know what to do. I am intellectually prepared for divorce - I'm not in denial. I understand that it may be inevitable, but I hear her say we should do counselling, and I'm just a little bit lost at the moment. And really sad.


Here's the problem with her replies: she's not doing this for you but for the sake of keeping the family together. Her motives for R are purely pragmatic: she doesn't want to disrupt your lives.

Also, whether or not you think so, she's protecting the OM and his family. That means more to her than you do. 

Keep trying to find the OMW, and if I were you, I would initiate the divorce process. Talk to a lawyer and get the paperwork set up. You don't need to follow through on it, but Machiavelli and others here are right: you have to show your wife that what she did has has serious consequences and means a lot more than just "keeping the family together." That's just a convenient excuse on her part to white-wash this and get you into a false reconciliation where she can control the outcome as she would like.

Basically, she wants live to go on as normal with nobody getting burned, all tidied up in a nice bow.


----------



## nogutsnoglory

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Ok, I have the OM's name, company and a gmail address.
> 
> I've googled all of this to death and found nothing. His phone number is either unlisted or in his wifes name.
> 
> All I need is an email address for her. Any ideas?
> 
> 
> By the way, if anyone thinks I should hold off on alerting his wife - let me know now. I'm really conflicted on this, as I think he's now out of the picture (no proof though), I think my wife is being sincere, and she is definitely scared about the potential of outing OM due to impact on his family (and yes, clearly I know about the impact on mine, but all children are innocent, including his).


her being "scared" is her caring about another man. That means the fog of her emotions for him has not lifted. Time for you to lift it yourself. OM's wife deserves to know. Period.


----------



## Refuse to be played

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Tom, I'm sorry, but I still do not get this at all.
> 
> I am not in any kind of conflict with his kids. I'm sure they are just as beautiful and precious as my own. My marriage may be over for a number of reasons, but it has nothing to do with these kids.


Dude. This guy knew your wife was married. He knew about you. He knew you two had kids. He just didn't give a f###, he wanted to do your wife. His family and how they take the news should be of no concern of yours because your family obviously wasn't any to him. You won't be hurting his family contacting his wife, he already did that himself.

You don't want him fishing for your wife at some point down the line while you two are attempting to R. You need this guy out of the picture for good. His wife will help you see to that.

Do what must be done if you want to reconcile.


----------



## Iver

You need to call the OM's wife or have a P.I. do it for you. If the OM intercepts the email his wife will never see it. (or do both)

You also need to reframe this situation in order to deal with it properly. 

If the OM is not out of the picture your marriage has zero chance. A divorce will hurt your children. 

Your choice is simple. Your children are harmed or this man who was cheating on his wife is harmed. 

You decide. 

Lastly, have you told your wife you want her tested for STD's? I have the feeling she will refuse. Doing this will reframe the affair in a direction she won't want to go.

Best to start looking for a good lawyer.


----------



## Iver

Another point.

Do you feel any moral responsibility to notify the OM's wife what a cheating POS he is? 

You know he's cheating on her (also exposing her to STD's, some which are incurable) and you are dithering on notifying her.

Do you think the Golden Rule should apply? I am assuming you'd want to be told if the OM's wife had learned of the affair.


----------



## CASE_Sensitive

Sorry if I missed this, but which country does O/M live (assuming not in Asia or Australia?)


----------



## Nucking Futs

CASE_Sensitive said:


> Sorry if I missed this, but which country does O/M live (assuming not in Asia or Australia?)


From the op's home town in Australia.


----------



## CASE_Sensitive

All the better, OP can deliver the news personally once an address is confirmed. It's easy to hang up or delete an email. OMW is less apt to dismiss this as BS.
This is a second good reason why OP needs to screw the language course and get back to Australia and take care of business.


----------



## tom67

CASE_Sensitive said:


> All the better, OP can deliver the news personally once an address is confirmed. It's easy to hang up or delete an email. OMW is less apt to dismiss this as BS.
> This is a second good reason why OP needs to screw the language course and get back to Australia and take care of business.


:iagree:He should go back take care of business with omw and move back and get a good job again. If she wants the marriage fine if not he'll move on.


----------



## The Traveler

NSTC,

I have no idea how you think that you are protecting his children by not exposing this affair to the OMW. It's unbelievable. You would be doing them a favour if you did expose. You want their childhood to be a lie? You want another human-being, in the same position you were (not knowing you were being cheated on) to go on living a lie? The longer her and her children are unaware of the sick acts the OM has committed, the harder they are going to fall when they do find out.

Ask yourself this,

Would you have moved to Hong Kong with your wife and daughter, and put yourself out of a job and spent time unemployed, if you knew BEFORE you were going to quit, that your wife was having an affair? Would you have put your family through that move? Was it fair to your daughter that your wife ****ed another man? Would you rather have not known and continued living a lie for the false ideal that this has anything to do with a child's innocence? The child will grow up and learn from it. I hope your daughter grows up with more self respect than you. I hope the OM's children and wife don't have to waste the rest of their innocent lives because of your naive moral stance. Not exposing is only aiding the OM to hurt his family, I hope you don't find that moral.

I don't mean to be overly aggressive here, but I would hate you If you didn't tell my mother that my father was boinking another woman if you had known (ESPECIALLY if you were the husband of the other woman).


----------



## Gabriel

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Ok, I have the OM's name, company and a gmail address.
> 
> I've googled all of this to death and found nothing. His phone number is either unlisted or in his wifes name.
> 
> All I need is an email address for her. Any ideas?
> 
> 
> By the way, if anyone thinks I should hold off on alerting his wife - let me know now. I'm really conflicted on this, as I think he's now out of the picture (no proof though), I think my wife is being sincere, and she is definitely scared about the potential of outing OM due to impact on his family (and yes, clearly I know about the impact on mine, but all children are innocent, including his).


I have Spokeo. If you are so inclined - feel free to send me via private message the OM's info, and I will look it up for you. I will keep it confidential.


----------



## TDSC60

Try whitepages.com. or freephonetracer.com

Go to the reverse lookup section and enter the phone number. It will display the geographical location of the phone in question and offer you the chance to purchase a report for $1.00 USD.


----------



## badmemory

NeverSawThisComing said:


> By the way, if anyone thinks I should hold off on alerting his wife - let me know now.


No doubt, if you keep looking for an opinion that you shouldn't expose OM, you'll find one. Not too many here though.


----------



## Hicks

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I spoke with her tonight, and I don't sense any optimism for the future in her voice. All I'm hearing is that we should go to counselling for the sake of our family. Maybe we can work things out. I said if she doesn't want to be in this for us (her and I), then maybe we should just skip the counselling and proceed with divorce.
> 
> She resisted this and said that we should do counselling. Maybe we can work it out, she says. I don't think this is about the OM. It's about our broken marriage.
> 
> I want her back (I still love her), and I want our family to be together. I can't even think of our daughter growing up without Mum and Dad together.
> 
> I'm careful not to sound needy, hence my suggestion to her of divorce.
> 
> What's my next move? I really don't know what to do. I am intellectually prepared for divorce - I'm not in denial. I understand that it may be inevitable, but I hear her say we should do counselling, and I'm just a little bit lost at the moment. And really sad.


Just becuase you found out does not mean your wife automatically runs back to the marriage. She is not optimistic, that is normal.

The phease you are in now is affair killing. You are skipping ahead to marriage building. What you have to be expressing is that you are confident that there is a process out there that can help to recover your marriage. That neither of you currently know the answers, but for the sake of the children you do agree that it is worth trying. That you will try but you expect her to actively try as well. That you commit to fixing your issues if she is willing to commit to fixing her issues.

But what you can express to her what you do know is that you cannot even begin to recover the marriage a) if she is still in contact with OM in any way shape or form and b) you are not afforded basic safety within the marriage that she is not actively cheating on you. Is she willing to agree to those things? And if she says yes, then you tell her what your rules are:

-- Total transparencey of her passwords, phones, computer, whereabouts, find my iphone tracker etc.
-- Any contact between them is reported.

And speaking of the affair killing stage, this is why you expose to the wife... It helps to kill the affair.


----------



## dogman

"Gee,I don't want to damage the OMs family" ha! There you go taking something on yourself again. You didn't damage his family HE DID when he was banging your wife while he has a wife and kids at home.

Your wife even has you convinced that this trouble you're having in your marriage is because you neglected her somehow or you didn't help her enough or whatever. Trust me its NOT that. She started bonding to the other dude and now you dont look so great and suddenly shes way less happy with everything you do. This is not your fault, it's the fact that your wife has been cheating on you and has bonded to someone else. 

Even if she knows she can't have him permanently, the bond with you is broken and she's ready to move on.

I just don't see how that's your fault.

She's going through the motions of counseling so she can say she tried to work IT out with you, when we all know IT is the OM, or any other man and the fact that she BROKE HER MARRIAGE VOWS.

She can be knocked out of the fog with exposure, but your gonna have to be more assertive and confident and get to it!

Tell the other mans wife.
Tell her parents 
Tell your parents.
Tell anyone relevant in your marriage so she will feel the repercussions.

Then we'll see where she stands.

Good luck, times a wasting. Tick tock


----------



## badmemory

Hicks said:


> The phease you are in now is affair killing. You are skipping ahead to marriage building.


:iagree:


----------



## OlderAndWiser

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I spoke with her tonight, and I don't sense any optimism for the future in her voice. All I'm hearing is that we should go to counselling for the sake of our family. Maybe we can work things out. I said if she doesn't want to be in this for us (her and I), then maybe we should just skip the counselling and proceed with divorce.
> 
> She resisted this and said that we should do counselling. Maybe we can work it out, she says. I don't think this is about the OM. It's about our broken marriage.
> 
> I want her back (I still love her), and I want our family to be together. I can't even think of our daughter growing up without Mum and Dad together.
> 
> I'm careful not to sound needy, hence my suggestion to her of divorce.
> 
> What's my next move? I really don't know what to do. I am intellectually prepared for divorce - I'm not in denial. I understand that it may be inevitable, but I hear her say we should do counselling, and I'm just a little bit lost at the moment. And really sad.


She has no interest in saving your marriage. She is gone at this point. For her to tell you that she can't promise that she could be faithful if she saw him again should have told you everything. 

She has no optimism about your future because in her mind, her future DOES NOT INCLUDE YOU. She checked out long ago, and has been planning an exit with the OM for a long time. You discovering the affair ruined her perfect plan, because her plan included dumping you when she was ready. Now, the timing of her plan has been disrupted, thus she needs time to think through a revised time line. But the end point of her plan is till the same. She'll string you along through counseling until she is again ready to move on.

You're being played.....


----------



## tom67

OlderAndWiser said:


> She has no interest in saving your marriage. She is gone at this point. For her to tell you that she can't promise that she could be faithful if she saw him again should have told you everything.
> 
> She has no optimism about your future because in her mind, her future DOES NOT INCLUDE YOU. She checked out long ago, and has been planning an exit with the OM for a long time. You discovering the affair ruined her perfect plan, because her plan included dumping you when she was ready. Now, the timing of her plan has been disrupted, thus she needs time to think through a revised time line. But the end point of her plan is till the same. She'll string you along through counseling until she is again ready to move on.
> 
> You're being played.....


Move back home with the kid and start divorce proceedings maybe that will shock her out of the fog. DNA test the kid also.


----------



## Gabriel

Refuse to be played said:


> Dude. This guy knew your wife was married. He knew about you. He knew you two had kids. He just didn't give a f###, he wanted to do your wife. His family and how they take the news should be of no concern of yours because your family obviously wasn't any to him. You won't be hurting his family contacting his wife, he already did that himself.
> 
> You don't want him fishing for your wife at some point down the line while you two are attempting to R. You need this guy out of the picture for good. His wife will help you see to that.
> 
> Do what must be done if you want to reconcile.


This This THIS!!!!


----------



## Chaparral

When does she say the marriage went south? Was it before you quit your job and moved to Hong Kong?

Since the om lives in your hometown, you should be able to talk to a pi there and get the omw's information. In the U S that would cost acouple of hundred bucks.

Tell his wife, do not tell your wife, this will let you know if he is still in contact with him. Just give her the facts, tell her to let you know if she finds out anything or learns anything new. This gives you two people watching both ends of the playing field.

Demand she gives you all her passwords now. Otherwise, no mc, no marriage , then take your daughter and go back home.

Again, when did the marriage start having trouble? Could she have met him before the move? The odds she is giving you the whole truth is as close to zero that you can get. Who has been withholding sex, how long , you ir her?


----------



## Chaparral

Btw, if she blows up after she finds out you talked to his wife, it means he told her. Tell your wife to give him another message, you are just biding your time till you can get your hands on him.


----------



## dogman

If I had an affair with a married woman and her husband found out I would be scared to death every time the phone rang and my wife answered it. Rightfully so, I think. I'd probably do anything he asked to avoid that scenario playing out.....

...unless my affair partner promised me she could handle her husband and I shouldn't worry. 

Heck, then I'd probably bang her again if I thought I'd get away with it.

Just saying.


----------



## carmen ohio

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I spoke with her tonight, and I don't sense any optimism for the future in her voice. All I'm hearing is that we should go to counselling for the sake of our family. Maybe we can work things out. I said if she doesn't want to be in this for us (her and I), then maybe we should just skip the counselling and proceed with divorce.
> 
> She resisted this and said that we should do counselling. Maybe we can work it out, she says. I don't think this is about the OM. It's about our broken marriage.
> 
> I want her back (I still love her), and I want our family to be together. I can't even think of our daughter growing up without Mum and Dad together.
> 
> I'm careful not to sound needy, hence my suggestion to her of divorce.
> 
> What's my next move? I really don't know what to do. I am intellectually prepared for divorce - I'm not in denial. I understand that it may be inevitable, but I hear her say we should do counselling, and I'm just a little bit lost at the moment. And really sad.


Dear NSTC,

Your reaction is perfectly natural. You have had the rug pulled out from under you by your WW's adultery and are trying to figure out how to save your marriage (i.e., how to get back to where you were in your marriage before she cheated). The problem with this is that there is no way back. The marriage you had is dead. What comes next will require you to make a brand new beginning in life. Whether this new beginning includes your WW or not is not within your control: only she can decide whether she wants to come with you. At the moment, it looks like she does not and, based on everything you have said about her, it seems unlikely that this will change. Do not confuse her wanting to drag things out ("let's start MC") for wanting to be part of your new life. What is more likely to be her goal is to delay, if not prevent, your starting to build a new life. As long as you stay where you are, she can continue to do whatever it is that she wants to do.

The reason so many people have been urging you to take a hard line about this (go back home, get a job, file for divorce, etc.) is because they know how difficult it is to rebuild a relationship after one party has been unfaithful. Read some of the "success" stories on TAM/CWI and you will see that it takes years of hard work on both partners' part. Moreover, every success story involves a WS who is completely remorseful for what he/she has done and is willing to do whatever is necessary. Your WW has shown little if any remorse. In fact, she has said that she can't promise that she won't cheat again. This is not a very good foundation on which to try to build a new relationship with her.

To put things in a better perspective, look at the situation from your WW's point of view. She has (mostly) lost her feelings for you and is now emotionally attached to another man. That man -- from her perspective -- is more alpha in that he has good job while you, on the other hand, are unemployed (and you actually lose points over the fact that you are unemployed because you put her interests first because that is beta behavior). Your reaction to her affair so far also indicates weakness, given that your measures have been half-hearted at best and have not really caused her any serious consequences. Hence, from her perspective, you probably do not seem like the person that she feels she can depend on in the future -- the irony here being that woman are more attracted to men who don't put up with their sh!t since such a man is likely to be a better protector. So, reconciling with you is a big gamble for her. On top of that, she doesn't really feel all that bad for what she's done. Put this all together and the odds that the two of you will be together a year or so from now seem very small.

What you seem not to realize is that the best way to increase the odds is to detach from her and start to build a new life without her. If you do this, one of two things will happen: she will either realize that the man she is about to lose is the best mate she is every likely to find (strong, confident, knows what he wants, etc.) or she will let you go, in which case you can rest assured that any attempt at reconciliation would have failed and you will be that much closer to regaining your happiness with someone else.

Of course, you can ignore the advice you are getting her and, who knows, maybe your story will be the exception and you and your WW will live happily ever after with just a bit of MC. But, based on the hundreds of stories that have played out on TAM/CWI, the odds of this happening are about 1 in a 100.

You have been cheated on and lied to by the one person that you should have been able to trust and rely upon. You need to get angry about this and take steps to protect yourself and your child. Let your WW know that, for now, she doesn't matter to you. Let her know what it feels like to be rejected.

Time to show her who is the man in the family.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

OlderAndWiser said:


> She has no interest in saving your marriage. She is gone at this point. For her to tell you that she can't promise that she could be faithful if she saw him again should have told you everything.
> 
> She has no optimism about your future because in her mind, her future DOES NOT INCLUDE YOU. She checked out long ago, and has been planning an exit with the OM for a long time. You discovering the affair ruined her perfect plan, because her plan included dumping you when she was ready. Now, the timing of her plan has been disrupted, thus she needs time to think through a revised time line. But the end point of her plan is till the same. She'll string you along through counseling until she is again ready to move on.
> 
> You're being played.....


Amen


----------



## bfree

It's it possible the move to Hong Kong was at least in part because she was planning on divorcing you and wanted to be in more comfortable surroundings where she had more support, not only for the divorce but for life as a single parent?


----------



## Machiavelli

NeverSawThisComing said:


> She doesn't know if it's repairable, and suspects it may be too late..... She knows it's wrong and immoral and destructive for both families, but she's having trouble committing to staying away from him.


She may be right, but she's also clueless at the same time. She has no idea why she is compelled to boff the OM at every opportunity. She doesn't understand the real reason this guy is giving her the best sex she's ever had. Even if you knew enough about female sexual response to explain to her that 

1. Married women, especially, have a huge release of dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin when climaxing with a new paramour. Notice those three natural brain drugs are the same ones stimulated by crack cocaine. Your wife is, at least temporarily, addicted to the OM and she will lie, cheat, and steal to get more of her "crack" (the OM). The forbidden nature of the relationship, the intrigue, the secrets, putting one over on the clueless cuckold (that would be you) all make this much, much more exciting than regular old premarital sex; to say nothing of boring old marital sex with you (which she quit doing long ago anyway).

2. She has a biological drive (limbic system) to reproduce with this man, due to the release of oxytocin and other "bonding" chemicals during post-orgasmic bliss. Even if her prefrontal cortex doesn't want this and is able to prevent it from happening via BC or "any means necessary", this limbic drive is pushing her for more coitus with OM.

3. She does sexual things with OM your were probably too timid to ask for. Women can release their inner sloot with the OM and no holds are barred. It's an opportunity to unleash a side of themselves they feel the need to keep hidden from the BH. She ain't going to want to give you a blow by blow account of their sessions, I promise you. Then she'll lie anyway.

4. Semen is also an issue in that it contains the same mood elevating chemicals as the anti-depressants so many women take these days. This is why women in adulterous affairs instinctively do not use condoms.



NeverSawThisComing said:


> I think it is repairable. I've never loved anyone as much as her and I love our family.


She's banking on this keeping you around until the time comes to pull the trigger, in a place and time of her own choosing. You need to start acting like a man with options who is starting to explore those options. Not only is it the smart thing to do for your own sake, it also is very appealing to the female limbic reproductive system, which is really what's in control of your wife's life at the moment. This is a test intended to help men determine how attractive they are to single women, but these are the same behaviors that keep married women attracted to their H's, although moderation is in order for an LTR. See how you stack up and adjust your vibe accordingly.




NeverSawThisComing said:


> I spoke with her tonight, and I don't sense any optimism for the future in her voice. All I'm hearing is that we should go to counselling for the sake of our family. Maybe we can work things out. I said if she doesn't want to be in this for us (her and I), then maybe we should just skip the counselling and proceed with divorce.
> 
> She resisted this and said that we should do counselling. Maybe we can work it out, she says. I don't think this is about the OM. It's about our broken marriage.
> 
> I want her back (I still love her), and I want our family to be together. I can't even think of our daughter growing up without Mum and Dad together.
> 
> I'm careful not to sound needy, hence my suggestion to her of divorce.
> 
> What's my next move? I really don't know what to do. I am intellectually prepared for divorce - I'm not in denial. I understand that it may be inevitable, but I hear her say we should do counselling, and I'm just a little bit lost at the moment. And really sad.


Your next move is to go back and reread my first post in this thread and start implementing it. You young guys raised under the matriarchy and its bullsheet are always at a huge disadvantage when sexual reality rears up and kicks you in the balls. Time to find those balls is now. Why do you think arschlöcher get all the women? There is a reason. This man is full of irresistible dark triad traits that your wife will remember with lust deep in her heart, even if she reconciles with you. This guy wanted her badly enough he was willing to throw away his own marriage and sacrifice his own kids mental futures on the altar of your wife's body. That's pretty heady stuff for women like your wife. You can't compete with any of this, unless you man up. 

What's your testosterone level?


----------



## the guy

Consequences prevent bad behavior from continuing, until the OM has to face the consequences at the sake of his own family well then he just might think twice about going after your wife again.

Hell you just might prevent OM from going after another mans wife!


----------



## Shaggy

Hire a local PI and direct him to get her info.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

I found (with a little help from someone here), what may be the OMW on Facebook.

I sent a short message to her (paid the $1 message fee) about 3 hours ago to sound out if she was the right person. But haven't yet received a reply, although the message does show as read, 7 minutes after I sent it.

I introduced myself, and said if you are the wife of XXXXX who works at XXXXX, then we need to talk. I mentioned my wife and the affair.

But no reply. 

Maybe it's the wrong person or maybe the OM is monitoring and deleting. Maybe the OMW read it and is so shocked she doesn't know what to reply. It was the only Facebook name that matched in the city that the guy lives in. It's not a common surname. There were a couple of kids in the photos. They seem about the right age.

What's my next step? I want to go through with exposing this thing.

EDIT: maybe I should wait a day before worrying?


----------



## Chaparral

Now that you have found a name, have you done any google searches on her?

I would still call a local pi.


----------



## Chaparral

If your wife has warned him he will be filtering her messages.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Ok, I just received a reply. 
"No, it's not me. My son's name is XXX, but not my husband.

Hope you find who you're looking for."

******.


----------



## warlock07

Are you planning to tell the family ?(Her family)

Did you verify the lies and truth of her affair ?(How long was her affair actually going on. She might have deleted all email traces by now though)

Usually, it is innocent until found guilty but now that she is caught, the opposite is true. Unless you can confirm something yourself, you don't trust her on anything. 

She cheated on you for several months.She looked at you during this time without any guilt. She can lie without much trouble. You get that, don't you ?


----------



## warlock07

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Ok, I just received a reply.
> "No, it's not me. My son's name is XXX, but not my husband.
> 
> Hope you find who you're looking for."
> 
> ******.


Leave the FB for now. It could be a different woman or it could be OM intercepting your message before his wife.

Is the OM an expat like you or is he someone from that country ? The PI may or may not be feasible depending on this.

Will reporting the affair get both of them fired ?(what kind of company does she work for ?). Why is this an issue ? You could move back and restart the career back here.


----------



## warlock07

OP, did you read the newbie links. Read them immediately. It will explain a lot of your wife's reaction and manipulation.

Do you think she assumes that she could try out the relationship with the OM and get back to you once it does not work out ? Does she realize the finality of your divorce in your discussions ?

Are you angry ? or are you scared ?


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

warlock07 said:


> OP, did you read the newbie links. Read them immediately. It will explain a lot of your wife's reaction and manipulation.
> 
> Do you think she assumes that she could try out the relationship with the OM and get back to you once it does not work out ? Does she realize the finality of your divorce in your discussions ?
> 
> Are you angry ? or are you scared ?


Am I angry or am I scared?

I'm an Aussie living in HK/China that speaks the local language. The worst that's going to happen to me is that I'm going to get far more p*ssy than I can handle.

EDIT: and yes, I'm angry. I'm not going to take any prisoners. I'd like my family back, but not at the cost of my own self respect.


----------



## warlock07

Read this thread. 
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...onths-since-d-day-stuck-need-perspective.html

Notice the wife's reaction


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

warlock07 said:


> Read this thread.
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...onths-since-d-day-stuck-need-perspective.html
> 
> Notice the wife's reaction


What do you mean by that? I should ask for an open marriage?

I guess it could work - she gets OM once a month during their 'business' trips and I go out every night of the week


----------



## duped333

I can't speak for Warlock, but my take is that everything was just fine and dandy while she had her other man, but as soon as he was no longer "available" she realised she had nothing and wanted her H back. THIS is why you expose. You're on the right track now!


----------



## warlock07

NeverSawThisComing said:


> What do you mean by that? I should ask for an open marriage?
> 
> I guess it could work - she gets OM once a month during their 'business' trips and I go out every night of the week


No, that haha. I meant how she changed when she realized that her Husband could be with women other than her. That she was not indispensable and her husband can get with other women if he wanted to. And that he has other options. You are right about white guys in China/HK.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

I know, I'm just being facetious 

I do see the way forward, and I foresee many uncomfortable conversations as my wife confronts this particular addiction with her friends and relatives who will be receiving an email from me in the next few days.

It's probably a good thing that I'm away for a couple weeks while this happens. She's going to hate me for a while, but when the fog lifts, I think she'll understand.

And if she doesn't - well I still get to walk with my head held high.


----------



## CASE_Sensitive

Way to go NSTC!
Plan for the worst, hope for the best and good luck!
I still say fight to the end, do everything you can, and if it still fails, no one can say you didn't give it your everything.


----------



## tom67

CASE_Sensitive said:


> Way to go NSTC!
> Plan for the worst, hope for the best and good luck!
> I still say fight to the end, do everything you can, and if it still fails, no one can say you didn't give it your everything.


Hang in there and if you have to hire a pi back in the home town.


----------



## warlock07

Was there anger at any point of your discussion ?

Did she ever get a message that the decision to R is no longer hers?


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

warlock07 said:


> Was there anger at any point of your discussion ?
> 
> Did she ever get a message that the decision to R is no longer hers?


Yes and yes. We were in a hotel room at the time and I caught a glimpse of myself in the mirror. I was being so assertive that I almost turned myself on.

I told her last night that maybe we should just divorce. She said no, let's work on it.


----------



## warlock07

how desperate was she?


----------



## greenfern

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Ok, I just received a reply.
> "No, it's not me. My son's name is XXX, but not my husband.
> 
> Hope you find who you're looking for."
> 
> ******.


Does anyone else think this is a strange coincidence? I would be worried this was intercepted by the OM (or is it possible you reached the mother of the OM?)


----------



## Gabriel

Good luck. And keep us posted.


----------



## mahike

Speaking as someone that also caught his wife and she claimed an connection with him that she has lost with me. It was months before she was detached from him. Women are about emotional connections. He rocks her world in more then one way. Stay on top of things. Call her parents right away. That is a must. Also you really do need to expose. So spend a couple of bucks and find her, phone number, email and get it done.

What are you doing to take care of yourself. Are you seeing a IC. You will need it to stay strong. Your emotions are going to take you for a ride.


----------



## Machiavelli

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I'm an Aussie living in HK/China that speaks the local language. The worst that's going to happen to me is that I'm going to get far more p*ssy than I can handle.


As we were wont to say in olden tymes: QFT.



NeverSawThisComing said:


> EDIT: and yes, I'm angry. I'm not going to take any prisoners. *I'd like my family back, but not at the cost of my own self respect.*


I'm all for R when kids are involved, but it requires a prostrate and distraught WW as the key ingredient. That seems to be lacking.


----------



## weightlifter

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I'm an Aussie living in HK/China that speaks the local language. The worst that's going to happen to me is that I'm going to get far more p*ssy than I can handle.


OK Ill bite. Several posts mention white guys do well in HK. 

The simple reason is...?


----------



## tom67

Decorum said:


> Money, status, immigration, and larger egg roles.
> 
> Plus he speaks the language, it must be love.


:lol::iagree::rofl::rofl:


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

I've only anecdotal evidence though. But seriously, the number of very old unattractive western guys with hot local girlfriends is ridiculous.

But this is a tangent.


*Any investigators want to help me out pro bono before I go and spend $400? The location of OM is Sydney.*


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

I have a question on timing of the exposure.

I am about to engage a PI, but it will take a few days to get info from him about OMW. Otherwise, my letter to OMW is ready to go.

Letter for exposure to family is ready to go, but I will be holding off until just before the weekend so that WW doesn't get contacted while she's at work.

I was thinking that it would be a good idea to send everything at once for the tsunami effect, but that's not going to be possible as I'm not likely to get OMW contact details until after weekend.

But then I thought, maybe it doesn't hurt to do the OMW letter a few days after the family letters. If OMW gets OM's email password, then perhaps we'll be able to see if they've been in touch after the family emails. This could be a little bonus to help assess where these two are currently at in terms of communication.

OM and WW live in different countries, so I don't think there's much danger of WW and OM getting together in her time of need.

Any thoughts on this?


----------



## Hicks

Exposure is to kill an affair.

Is your wife still having an affair? You have to verify this first. You don't want to create trauma and drama if your wife has truly ended her affair.

Has she agreed to no contact? Have you been checking her computers? Has she sent a no contact letter? Have you made rules for her to follow? Has she agree to a polygraph?


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Hicks said:


> Exposure is to kill an affair.
> 
> Is your wife still having an affair? You have to verify this first. You don't want to create trauma and drama if your wife has truly ended her affair.
> 
> Has she agreed to no contact? Have you been checking her computers? Has she sent a no contact letter? Have you made rules for her to follow? Has she agree to a polygraph?


I have no idea if she is still having an affair. That's the point.

I think of this as an intervention. My wife admitted to me that she'd cheated on previous partners, so this can only be seen as the continuation of a pattern of destructive behaviour.

My wife and I may reconcile. Maybe not.

Under both of those outcomes, I need her to stop this destructive pattern of behaviour. For my daughter's sake at least. She's on a path that is going to lead to upheaval every time she has an itch that needs scratching, which is an unacceptable outcome for my daughter. If I'm with her, it's obviously an unacceptable outcome for me too. And if we're not together and this behaviour still a part of her MO, then I pity the guy(s) that ends up with her.

My email will only be going out to her parents (not mine, as I'm not that close to them), her brother and our girl's godmother. I have no interest in doing the facebook friends bit as I don't think that would be constructive.

My hope is that this very limited intervention results in a wakeup call sufficiently loud enough that this behaviour is eliminated from her MO.


----------



## Chaparral

It sounds like you need to do some research on serial cheaters.

Add this to her already pathetic responses, things look bleak.

Polygraph..........first question.....is this the only time you have cheated on me?


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Yup. I know.

But I'm assuming that most instances of cheating are not outed in this way. There are never any consequences except for a sad looking BS. Nothing to learn except that you can get away with this kind of behaviour. Nor do they get an appreciation of the destruction they cause. Hence my planned actions in this particular case.

I will not be a scared BS that's afraid of upsetting the WS. It's a horrible shame and disappointment, but I am quite prepared to lose her. I'll just have to mark it down to poor choice of spouse and learn from it.


----------



## CASE_Sensitive

Are you sure not calling her parents directly is not better? (or at least following up right after the email is sent?). I'm all confused where everyone is right now.

NSTC-> Hong Kong with Daughter 
WW -> in hotel with NSTC (but where does she work?)
(where do you actually live?)
POSOM -> works where?
OMW -> Sydney


----------



## disconnected

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I've only anecdotal evidence though. But seriously, the number of very old unattractive western guys with hot local girlfriends is ridiculous.
> 
> _My husband is 63 and OW is 27. Neither are particularly attractive. It is rife in this country. My husband always said that he didn't like seeing older European men with young Asian women ... but he seems to have changed his tune now that the predator has her hooks into him.
> 
> I am watching the bank account VERY CAREFULLY_.
> .[/B]


----------



## Nucking Futs

CASE_Sensitive said:


> Are you sure not calling her parents directly is not better? (or at least following up right after the email is sent?). I'm all confused where everyone is right now.
> 
> NSTC-> Hong Kong with Daughter
> WW -> in hotel with NSTC (but where does she work?)
> (where do you actually live?)
> POSOM -> works where?
> OMW -> Sydney


Let's see if I've got this right.

NSTC-> Out of town in a hotel for a language course
WW -> At home in Hong Kong with daughter
POSOM -> Works and lives in Sydney
OMW -> Sydney

NSTC and WW are also from Sydney, they're in Hong Kong because WW got assigned there by her employer. POSOM works for the same company in the Sydney office, they meet up on business trips.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Nucking Futs said:


> Let's see if I've got this right.
> 
> NSTC-> Out of town in a hotel for a language course
> WW -> At home in Hong Kong with daughter
> POSOM -> Works and lives in Sydney
> OMW -> Sydney
> 
> NSTC and WW are also from Sydney, they're in Hong Kong because WW got assigned there by her employer. POSOM works for the same company in the Sydney office, they meet up on business trips.


10/10

Thankyou for saving me a post


----------



## GutPunch

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Yup. I know.
> 
> But I'm assuming that most instances of cheating are not outed in this way. There are never any consequences except for a sad looking BS. Nothing to learn except that you can get away with this kind of behaviour. Nor do they get an appreciation of the destruction they cause. Hence my planned actions in this particular case.
> 
> I will not be a scared BS that's afraid of upsetting the WS. It's a horrible shame and disappointment, but I am quite prepared to lose her. I'll just have to mark it down to poor choice of spouse and learn from it.


Thank goodness this is starting to click for you. The people here know what they are talking about. Good Luck and destroy that posom. You are not destroying a family but releasing the omw from the shackles of a broken one . It is the moral thing to do. Kudos to you.


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

You won the war when you realised the fact that, you can move on with or without her.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Kallan Pavithran said:


> You won the war when you realised the fact that, you can move on with or without her.


Thank you.
But replace the word 'can' with 'must'. This hurts so much. What happened to my family? I just want to die. I know it's the alcohol talking - of course you've all been though the same. 

**** this rollercoaster.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

OK, just ignore my last post. It's just a wild ride at the moment.


----------



## Chaparral

Unfortunately, we know what you are talking about.


----------



## Chaparral

Oh by the way, it does get better, much, much better if you play your cards right.

We have had many here say they ended up being thankful this happened, both reconciled and divorced. You can do this.


----------



## BK23

Believe it or not, you are way ahead of the curve in how you are dealing with this. Whatever the ultimate outcome, it takes some people months to get to where you are mentally. Just hang in there, you're doing great.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

I know. You're absolutely right.
It's just that I thought had a beautiful family a couple of weeks ago, and I'm now thinking that my 2.5 year old girl will never even have a memory of what it's like to have a loving family with Mum and Dad together.

But... it is what it is. I'm 90% sure that this is over. I'll grieve for a while, but I know I will make it through. Just a rough ride at the moment.


----------



## Dyokemm

If she can't say for sure that she would not cheat if she saw POS again, then she is at least mentally still in the A.

Expose her to family and friends ASAP.

She needs to start feeling some real consequences to her crappy behavior if she is going to get out of this fantasyland fog that allows her to still see cheating with POS as so exciting of a possibility that she can't be sure she would stay away from it.


----------



## tom67

I'll bet after you tell the omw he dumps your w to try to save his marriage and she is begging you for a second chance be prepared for that.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

tom67 said:


> I'll bet after you tell the omw he dumps your w to try to save his marriage and she is begging you for a second chance be prepared for that.


She should be so lucky 

She would have to work for it. Long time.


----------



## CASE_Sensitive

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I know. You're absolutely right.
> It's just that I thought had a beautiful family a couple of weeks ago, and I'm now thinking that my 2.5 year old girl will never even have a memory of what it's like to have a loving family with Mum and Dad together.
> 
> But... it is what it is. I'm 90% sure that this is over. I'll grieve for a while, but I know I will make it through. Just a rough ride at the moment.


Picture this, 2 years from now:
You: arguing with ex about who gets to have daughter for Christmas. You dont and return to your empty apartment
POSOM: Smiling to his full family, looking at his wife, thinking about the hot new girl they just hired
You: Still dealing with anger one day, sadness the next, and loneliness for the days without your children and your now ex-wife
POSOM: Living carefree without a worry in the world. Life is good.

Sorry, this is harsh and a worst case scenario, but a definite possibility.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

CASE_Sensitive said:


> Picture this, 2 years from now:
> You: arguing with ex about who gets to have daughter for Christmas. You dont and return to your empty apartment
> POSOM: Smiling to his full family, looking at his wife, thinking about the hot new girl they just hired
> You: Still dealing with anger one day, sadness the next, and loneliness for the days without your children and your now ex-wife
> POSOM: Living carefree without a worry in the world. Life is good.
> 
> Sorry, this is harsh and a worst case scenario, but a definite possibility.


Sorry, but what was your point? So many people here are helping me stay positive (regardless of outcome), but upon reading some posts that indicate that I might be having a rough night, your response is this? Grow up.


----------



## CASE_Sensitive

Sorry, that was never my intention.
I just your earlier post and thought it was in reference to not breaking up the OM family. If I read it wrong, my apologies. Yeah, I really f'ed the pooch on that one.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

CASE_Sensitive said:


> Sorry, that was never my intention.
> I just your earlier post and thought it was in reference to not breaking up the OM family. If I read it wrong, my apologies. Yeah, I really f'ed the pooch on that one.


It's ok dude, sorry for snapping at you.


----------



## CASE_Sensitive

Perfectly understandable and sorry for contributing in any way to the darkness. Me and I assume everyone here want nothing but the best for you. I was there the day my sister called me crying saying her husband was having an affair. I was there when his family tried rug sweeping it. She's now divorced and still going through the process. I hold a special place of anger in my heart for what cheaters do (but obviously it's not even a fragment of what you're going through. I did my best to learn as much from here to help my sister get through the dark days. Still wish the husband of the lady my brother-in-law would have knocked my him for a loop. Lord knows I wish I could have done the same. 
Hope you can get some rest tonight.


----------



## Chaparral

The quickest way to get a little relief is to go to a gym and workout.
Weightlifting is great at this. 

Its hard to keep the mind running away from you when you are lifting, balancing weights, counting etc. Running, cycling, skating gives you too much time to think(and get run over).

Added benefits, the body releases chemicals and hormones that make you feel better mentally and physically. After a workout you will have a much better outlook. In no time you can double your strength and actually see the growth in your muscles. The women see it too. Your confidence grows.

Since you are in HK, look into self defense classes. Obvious plusses here and you can practice your new language skills.

The outcome here is what you make it.

Do not hesitate to see your doctor for help.

I have no clue what is available there, but we constantly recommend IC with a counselor experienced in infidelity and especially PTSD. Few things in life are this traumatic.


----------



## Gabriel

Chaparral said:


> Oh by the way, it does get better, much, much better if you play your cards right.
> 
> We have had many here say they ended up being thankful this happened, both reconciled and divorced. You can do this.


This is very true. You are doing this the right way. Keep it up, stay here and let the good TAM folks guide you.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Be careful of the Self Defense in HK, make sure you find the legit places. They have schools that are outrageously expensive designed to take your money.

Depending on where you are at, go to a local park and practice for free.


----------



## weightlifter

OP

Here is somepositive. Read bff's thread in its entirety. Its full cycle. The end is good i promise.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Ok, the emails have been sent to her parents, brother and our best friend. 

Our friend replied already offering her love and support which means a lot to me. Nearly burst into tears reading it.

WW has a few phone calls coming her way tonight I imagine.


----------



## tom67

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Ok, the emails have been sent to her parents, brother and our best friend.
> 
> Our friend replied already offering her love and support which means a lot to me. Nearly burst into tears reading it.
> 
> WW has a few phone calls coming her way tonight I imagine.


Sorry You will find out who your real friends are. You are doing a great job so far.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Email number two back from father in law, saying he will do whatever he can for our family. WW respects her Dad above anyone else on the planet. He also lives in HK near us. WW and her Dad are meeting for drinks right about now.

I have a good feeling about this intervention. It would never have occurred to me to unleash a tsunami of exposure before I came to TAM.

Thank you everyone for your advice. Not just your advice, but your support as well. I'm a little isolated while on this course, and your advice and concern for me has been a great help.


----------



## happyman64

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Email number two back from father in law, saying he will do whatever he can for our family. WW respects her Dad above anyone else on the planet. He also lives in HK near us. WW and her Dad are meeting for drinks right about now.
> 
> I have a good feeling about this intervention. It would never have occurred to me to unleash a tsunami of exposure before I came to TAM.
> 
> Thank you everyone for your advice. Not just your advice, but your support as well. I'm a little isolated while on this course, and your advice and concern for me has been a great help.


NSTC

You just keep moving forward and stop drinking alcohol.

Take it day by day.

I hope you explained to your FIL that his little girl has a cheating pattern and your goal is to break her of it for your families sake.

Good Luck,

HM


----------



## Shaggy

I think you should be realizing what your wife did by cheating isn't an one tine aberration, but very much part of who she is. You say she's cheated on all her part relationships, why do people think that such behavior will not be repeated upon them?

She's an admitted serial cheater, who travels a lot for her job. 

Do you honestly think there is any way that she's not going to really reform just because you caught her this time? 

Did she cheat on you while dating? Before you say no, think back carefully.

Has she ever been caught by other past partners cheating? How did she handle those times? Think about how she justified herself when she told you about her past cheating to these guys?

The point I'm making, is that you aren't dealing with a wife who one time git sweet talked by a player, instead shes the one with a history of going out hunting and being open and willing to cheat. It's part of her personal values for herself.

If you gave her another chance, you'd need to forever be monitoring and tracking her, looking for the next guy she hooks up with while traveling for work.


----------



## Gabriel

Shaggy said:


> I think you should be realizing what your wife did by cheating isn't an one tine aberration, but very much part of who she is. You say she's cheated on all her part relationships, why do people think that such behavior will not be repeated upon them?
> 
> She's an admitted serial cheater, who travels a lot for her job.
> 
> Do you honestly think there is any way that she's not going to really reform just because you caught her this time?
> 
> Did she cheat on you while dating? Before you say no, think back carefully.
> 
> Has she ever been caught by other past partners cheating? How did she handle those times? Think about how she justified herself when she told you about her past cheating to these guys?
> 
> The point I'm making, is that you aren't dealing with a wife who one time git sweet talked by a player, instead shes the one with a history of going out hunting and being open and willing to cheat. It's part of her personal values for herself.
> 
> If you gave her another chance, you'd need to forever be monitoring and tracking her, looking for the next guy she hooks up with while traveling for work.


This is very true. Her history, coupled with the flippant sounding, "if I saw him again I can't promise nothing will happen", tells us that this behavior has been part of her make up until now. That she doesn't see it as all that unusual. More like, hey, I am what I am, sorry.

"Intervention" is a great word for this situation. I forget, did your email address this? Was it toned in a way to ask for these people to help her stop this destructive practice?

I'd almost treat her as a patient who needs therapy right now. Your decision to R or D can wait until this gets sorted out. No need to rush that.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Shaggy said:


> I think you should be realizing what your wife did by cheating isn't an one tine aberration, but very much part of who she is. You say she's cheated on all her part relationships, why do people think that such behavior will not be repeated upon them?
> 
> She's an admitted serial cheater, who travels a lot for her job.
> 
> Do you honestly think there is any way that she's not going to really reform just because you caught her this time?
> 
> Did she cheat on you while dating? Before you say no, think back carefully.
> 
> Has she ever been caught by other past partners cheating? How did she handle those times? Think about how she justified herself when she told you about her past cheating to these guys?
> 
> The point I'm making, is that you aren't dealing with a wife who one time git sweet talked by a player, instead shes the one with a history of going out hunting and being open and willing to cheat. It's part of her personal values for herself.
> 
> If you gave her another chance, you'd need to forever be monitoring and tracking her, looking for the next guy she hooks up with while traveling for work.


This is one of the things I need to assess during counselling. I'm not trying to get her back at all costs - I'm looking to get her back to the negotiating table and assess what I have here.

Yes, I did mention in my email to family that cheating has occurred at least in previous relationships. Of course there's no way to tell if she's done it before in our relationship. I asked her about previous cheating, and she freely admitted that it had happened in the past, but never with me. In fact her face changed completely to a look of horror when I asked about previous cheating in our relationship. I'm a poker player from way back, and there was no flinch, just a look of 'no way'. I'm trusting my gut on this. In light of her not hesitating with any of my questions, I have to trust this.

This is not a matter of me believing everything she says. I totally doubt her statement that the relationship was only two months old - due to body language. I didn't get that sense at all with my question of whether this has happened before in our relationship.

I don't know if she was caught cheating in relationships previously - I didn't ask her.

I doubt anyone properly outed her like I'm doing at the moment - to her parents, sibling and friends. There is a full blown intervention underway. This is a risk that I'm willing to take for the sake of our family. I just have to be vigilant.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Gabriel said:


> This is very true. Her history, coupled with the flippant sounding, "if I saw him again I can't promise nothing will happen", tells us that this behavior has been part of her make up until now. That she doesn't see it as all that unusual. More like, hey, I am what I am, sorry.
> 
> "Intervention" is a great word for this situation. I forget, did your email address this? Was it toned in a way to ask for these people to help her stop this destructive practice?
> 
> I'd almost treat her as a patient who needs therapy right now. Your decision to R or D can wait until this gets sorted out. No need to rush that.


Actually, my two page email to her family members was very much a call for intervention. I mentioned previous cheating. I provided links to articles on the the chemistry of addictive sexual behavior, and referred to her problem as an addiction at least 3 times.


----------



## Nucking Futs

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Actually, my two page email to her family members was very much a call for intervention. I mentioned previous cheating. I provided links to articles on the the chemistry of addictive sexual behavior, and referred to her problem as an addiction at least 3 times.


That was well done.


----------



## warlock07

Put the onus on her to prove that this is a 2 month only relationship. She probably must have removed all trail of evidence by now. As I reminded you previously, be frugal in giving out your trust. This is the woman that changed the email password once she was caught. maybe at this point, you should hold it back a little. Self preservation comes before all. She might be worried about how she might be looked at and perceived more than anything else...


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

warlock07 said:


> Put the onus on her to prove that this is a 2 month only relationship. She probably must have removed all trail of evidence by now. As I reminded you previously, be frugal in giving out your trust. This is the woman that changed the email password once she was caught. maybe at this point, you should hold it back a little. Self preservation comes before all. She might be worried about how she might be looked at and perceived more than anything else...


I think you're absolutely right about holding back. I just had a Skype with my mother in law who was in tears. She is just flabbergasted and so disappointed. She's in the UK (WW's parents were divorced years ago) and she said she's about ready to jump on a plane to HK to see her daughter. This is a close family, and consequences are going to rain down thick and fast for my WW. I will be backing off to let her family digest and deal with this. They have all been so supportive. I've always loved her family, but it's at another level now.


----------



## BashfulB

> She will be working in the same office as OM for a few days overseas, and (kudos for being truthful), she said that she's not sure if she can guarantee nothing will happen.


She inasmuch has told you she will not stop cheating if future opportunities present themselves.

Really? This is the person you want to share your life with? 

Why do you hold yourself in such low esteem?

Kudos? Kudos? Are you kidding?


----------



## carmen ohio

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I think you're absolutely right about holding back. I just had a Skype with my mother in law who was in tears. She is just flabbergasted and so disappointed. She's in the UK (WW's parents were divorced years ago) and she said she's about ready to jump on a plane to HK to see her daughter. This is a close family, and consequences are going to rain down thick and fast for my WW. I will be backing off to let her family digest and deal with this. They have all been so supportive. I've always loved her family, but it's at another level now.


Dear NSTC,

All sounds good so far but be aware that the general experience on TAM/CWI is that, once the WW explains her side of the story to her family, they rally around her. So be prepared to hear back from them that they are shocked to learn how badly you treated their daughter and, while not condoning what she's done, think that you have to accept much of the blame for what happened.

I hope that your WW's family is the exception but I thought you should be warned of the possibility.


----------



## mahike

It is very hard to be logical and dispassionate when making choices on how to deal with your wife's betrayal. You like her family, you want to keep the family intact for the kid but you need to think long term. 

I am the first to say try and make it work but it seems like your wife has not really be jolted out of her rainbow and unicorn world of the A. She how things go with Mom and Dads verbal slaps but you may want to consider filing for D. 

This is what really did it for my wife was the fact that I was going to end things. Your wife right now does not look at you as an Alpha male if she did she would not have had a PA with that SOB. 

I also hope you are in IC right now. My anger was so over the top if it was not for my IC I would have done something really stupid. Keep in mind your emotions are going to come in waves. Right now you are feeling love and support from others. Later you can have a nosedive on your feelings.

Your wife is a serial cheater always keep that in mind. Also do you want to look over your shoulder for the rest of your life?


----------



## aug

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Email number two back from father in law, saying he will do whatever he can for our family. *WW respects her Dad above anyone else on the planet. He also lives in HK near us. WW and her Dad are meeting for drinks right about now.*
> 
> *I have a good feeling about this intervention.* It would never have occurred to me to unleash a tsunami of exposure before I came to TAM.
> 
> Thank you everyone for your advice. Not just your advice, but your support as well. I'm a little isolated while on this course, and your advice and concern for me has been a great help.



Her father will stick with his daughter when push comes to shove.

Your wife is an unapologetic cheater. The trait could be deep in her biology. You'll have years or decades of turmoil if you decide to stay with her. It's your choice.


----------



## Chaparral

I hope you have had time to download MMSLP. A lot of things will click when you do.

Are you back from your trip? Is she contacting you?


Be prepared for to have a melt down when she finds out you outed her. Tell her if what she did was so wonderful she should be able to own it.


----------



## warlock07

Don't be surprised if the family eventually comes to support their daughter if they had to choose between you two. Don't think of it as a betrayal.


----------



## Dyokemm

Chaparral, 

I think you are right about that.

I suspect one of the reasons she was not too enthusiastic about fixing things at the beginning is she feared being exposed to her family, not only for this but her pattern of being a cheat in life.

She may have even only agreed to work on things because she knew an instant D and blow up of the M would raise too many questions with the family, and she knew it would come out.

She might have figured that spending some time in MC 'working on it' would allow her to spin the D to her family that they had just grown apart as a couple, and she would be able to keep this dirty secret buried.

She probably hoped if she agreed to work on the M and kept OP hooked, he would not air her dirty laundry.

If she was planning or thinking along these lines, then his exposure may very well cause a melt/down blow up.


----------



## warlock07

Chaparral said:


> I hope you have had time to download MMSLP. A lot of things will click when you do.
> 
> Are you back from your trip? Is she contacting you?
> 
> 
> Be prepared for to have a melt down when she finds out you outed her. Tell her if what she did was so wonderful she should be able to own it.


melt down or lashing out


----------



## Chaparral

Typically they say........well I had decided to stay and work it out but now there is no way after you embarrassed me. Its their way of blame shifting. Just part of the same old tired script.

Someone here with the time needs to make a list of the things the waywards always do.


----------



## Dyokemm

I agree that she will probably react this way...if that was her plan its now been blown sky high and she will be pi**ed off.


----------



## Gabriel

Chaparral said:


> Typically they say........well I had decided to stay and work it out but now there is no way after you embarrassed me. Its their way of blame shifting. Just part of the same old tired script.
> 
> Someone here with the time needs to make a list of the things the waywards always do.


Yep - many cheating spouses (especially wives) take this approach. It's all part of the rationalization hamster. 

His wife seems a bit different though. It seems this is not an emotional thing for her, but sexual. She's done it before, she did it here. She's apparently very attractive, she loves sex and many men are willing to give it to her. I don't think it's anything beyond that for her.

So she might be one of the exceptions here. I think she could be pissed he outed her, and yes, her family will absolutely rally around her, with or without him (she's family after all), but once she gets that support she might just come around.

Time will tell. NSTC, have you guys spoken since the email went out? You were saying before that you assumed your W had already received phone calls. Very surprised she hasn't contacted you.


----------



## Iver

NSTC,

For starters I have to tell you that you are doing a fantastic job of handling this truly awful situation.

Please don't hesitate to see you physician if you think you are going to have a melt down - that's what they are there for.

Make a point to stay on the good side of the in-laws (I know this can get tricky) Being the "good guy" here can help in custody issues e.g. babysitting offers from in-laws...


I also wouldn't be surprised if your WW was in damage control with the OM right now. A PI hand delivering a message to the OMW may be warranted.

Whatever happens next you can keep your head up knowing you gave it your all.

Good Luck.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Great advice, but I'm going to add one thing. Be prepared for the rewrite which will make it all your fault. Be prepared to be made out to be the bad guy since you outed her. As someone said earlier, family will rally around her before you. Heck, if she tells the right story, the support you are feeling now could tun on a dime. Sorry, for being a downer, but I'd rather you be prepared than be blindsided if they change sides. 

Glad you took control of the situation; good job.


----------



## tom67

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Great advice, but I'm going to add one thing. Be prepared for the rewrite which will make it all your fault. Be prepared to be made out to be the bad guy since you outed her. As someone said earlier, family will rally around her before you. Heck, if she tells the right story, the support you are feeling now could tun on a dime. Sorry, for being a downer, but I'd rather you be prepared than be blindsided if they change sides.
> 
> Glad you took control of the situation; good job.


Exactly but him exposing first will make it quite difficult for her to twist. Whatever happens I'm glad he came out of the shock and took the advice, nice way to end a week.


----------



## Shaggy

Demand a polygraph from her for starters.

Against her right now are the facts:

1. She's got a history of cheating

2. She cheated on you for at least months

3. She didnt actually end the affair when you caught her, instead she said she wasn't sure she could do it.

4. She hasn't left her job, and plans on going back to business as usual as soon as things calm down


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Thank you all for the discussion above, I've just finished reading all the posts that have come in overnight (in my time zone). It really helps me keep sane through this.

It's 8.50am and no contact from her yet, but it's still early in the day. WW will be concentrating on our daughter at the moment.

This is probably going to be the most difficult day yet for my WW - but she earned it.


----------



## Hardtohandle

Chaparral said:


> I hope you have had time to download MMSLP. A lot of things will click when you do.


Just downloaded that book. I'm curious about it as well


----------



## Shaggy

While waiting you can google polygraph and your home city - I wouldn't trust on done in China.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Hardtohandle said:


> Just downloaded that book. I'm curious about it as well


Me too. Lovely day outside (but hot), so I think I'll just sit in the courtyard and read this book through.


----------



## tom67

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Me too. Lovely day outside (but hot), so I think I'll just sit in the courtyard and read this book through.


You have come a long way. Stay strong for the kid.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Ok, a couple of emails just in from WW:

FROM: WW
TO: Me

Hi, 

I know I deserve to be punished, but before you send any more emails please can you think about how it might upset other people. I am the one to blame not anyone else. 

Thank you

---------------------------------

FROM: Me
TO: WW

Have you read the email? It has nothing to do with punishment. It's intent is very clear.
I will send to you if you don't have a copy.

I'm sorry that you're upset, but this is not about punishing you.

---------------------------------

FROM: WW
TO: Me

No and I don't want to. The only person who I have spoken to is dad, but I know to spammed half my friends and family. 

Please stop, that is all I can say.

----------------------------
----------------------------


So. Should I just send her the email anyway? I was hoping she'd get it from one of the recipients, as it has a link to an article about affairs as chemical addictions. The email itself isn't about how upset the A has made me, it's a call for intervention to WW mum, dad, brother and best friend from a husband who is worried about his wife's destructive addiction and the toll on the families involved.


----------



## Truthseeker1

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Ok, a couple of emails just in from WW:
> 
> FROM: WW
> TO: Me
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I know I deserve to be punished, but before you send any more emails please can you think about how it might upset other people. I am the one to blame not anyone else.
> 
> Thank you
> 
> ---------------------------------
> 
> FROM: Me
> TO: WW
> 
> Have you read the email? It has nothing to do with punishment. It's intent is very clear.
> I will send to you if you don't have a copy.
> 
> I'm sorry that you're upset, but this is not about punishing you.
> 
> ---------------------------------
> 
> FROM: WW
> TO: OB
> 
> No and I don't want to. The only person who I have spoken to is dad, but I know to spammed half my friends and family.
> 
> Please stop, that is all I can say.
> 
> ----------------------------
> ----------------------------
> 
> 
> So. Should I just send her the email anyway? I was hoping she'd get it as it has a link to an article about affairs as chemical addictions. The email itself isn't about how upset the A has made me, it's a call for intervention to WW mum, dad, brother and best friend from a husband who is worried about his wife's destructive addiction and the toll on the families involved.


Oh she has either seen it or it has been read to her. She doesn't care what is actually in it - she wants this rugswept...it is good you exposed it...for both your sakes...I'd say expose this affair to whoever you want to...


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Ok, a couple of emails just in from WW:
> 
> FROM: WW
> TO: Me
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I know I deserve to be punished, but before you send any more emails please can you think about how it might upset other people. I am the one to blame not anyone else.
> 
> Thank you
> 
> ---------------------------------
> 
> FROM: Me
> TO: WW
> 
> Have you read the email? It has nothing to do with punishment. It's intent is very clear.
> I will send to you if you don't have a copy.
> 
> I'm sorry that you're upset, but this is not about punishing you.
> 
> ---------------------------------
> 
> FROM: WW
> TO: OB
> 
> No and I don't want to. The only person who I have spoken to is dad, but I know to spammed half my friends and family.
> 
> Please stop, that is all I can say.
> 
> ----------------------------
> ----------------------------
> 
> 
> So. Should I just send her the email anyway? I was hoping she'd get it from one of the recipients, as it has a link to an article about affairs as chemical addictions. The email itself isn't about how upset the A has made me, it's a call for intervention to WW mum, dad, brother and best friend from a husband who is worried about his wife's destructive addiction and the toll on the families involved.


Just tell her it is very telling that is what she has to say.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> Just tell her it is very telling that is what she has to say.


Sorry, I'm not sure what you meant?

I think I'll hold off until everyone's had a chance to talk with her - otherwise she'll divert attention from the task at hand to nitpick the email.


----------



## Dyokemm

She's upset because her plan to keep her cheating a secret from everyone has now been ruined.

Any chance to rugsweep this whole thing by lulling you to sleep through MC and temporary changes to her work routine, where she would eventually pick her lifestyle back up with you as a doormat or her leaving and telling her family that the M had just degraded and fell apart, is now a thing of the past.


----------



## warlock07

Spamming ? That is the word she chose ?


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

warlock07 said:


> Spamming ? That is the word she chose ?


If she re-offends, the word spamming would be entirely accurate.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Ok, here's my email in reply. I got the article in there as well:


FROM: Me
TO: WW

No - only a select few people who will always love you unconditionally. And I have no intention of sending the email to anyone else. As I said, this is not about punishment. It's an intervention to ensure that your relationship with POSOM is entirely and immediately eliminated and to bring a secret destructive trait out into the clear light of day. I have (daughter) to think about, and regardless of whether or not we get back together, I cannot abide the thought of this kind of upheaval reoccurring every time you have an itch. I am worried about you and I am really concerned for (daughter). I would do the same if you were addicted to crack.

Anatomy of an Affair - The Chemistry of Love - Marriage AdvocatesMarriage Advocates

I'm sorry that this is uncomfortable for you, and you can call me anytime you want. I can help you through this is you want.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Sorry, I'_m not sure what you meant?_
> 
> I think I'll hold off until everyone's had a chance to talk with her - otherwise she'll divert attention from the task at hand to nitpick the email.


She wants to rug-sweep., nothing else.


----------



## bfree

Continue with your original plan. It was a good one and your actions are not vindictive or revenge based. You are acting out of love and concern for your family. Right now she is reacting to the embarrassment of exposure. This is common and actually good. Do not let her words sway you from your course.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> She wants to rug-sweep., nothing else.


Got it, thanks.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

bfree said:


> Continue with your original plan. It was a good one and your actions are not vindictive or revenge based. You are acting out of love and concern for your family. Right now she is reacting to the embarrassment of exposure. This is common and actually good. Do not let her words sway you from your course.


Thanks for this. I agree completely. I can tell 100% that she was hoping to tidy this up with a bit of rug sweeping, and is pissed that this is no longer an option. And very pissed that I've outed her. As I mentioned, she has a very close family, who are all devastated by what has happened. I don't think she was expecting this intervention at all.

My WW and I are still speaking civilly, which is good. I had a skype session with my 2yo daughter a couple of hours ago, and although WW was very stand-offish, she did facilitate the chat with my daughter very well, and WW and I chatted a little about what our daughter got up to today.


----------



## BashfulB

You did the right thing. Don't doubt yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Decorum said:


> I don't see anything wrong with this, you are not begging, but holding off a bit as suggested above is not a bad idea.
> 
> Her response seems rather restrained and unemotional. Is that her way?
> 
> *No it is not her usual way. We've emailed each other every day for the past six years, and this is the first time I've seen this tone in her writing. She's just really pissed at me. Considering that I've blindsided her with an intervention, I'm not surprised.*
> 
> Remember this will reveal a lot about her intension, you may not like what you see.
> 
> *This would mean that I've totally screwed her intention of walking away from this looking like an angel. I'm ready for a divorce, although I'd prefer a real reconciliation.*
> 
> Think about this,
> 
> “Its true weather we fix this or not we will both need the support from the people I told. It is my call whom I tell, you did not ask me whom you could sleep with. I realize I cannot control you, I can only control me, I have to make the best decisions for our family, I may make a mistake ( I don’t believe I have yet), I never imagined having to deal with this, and I am doing the best I can. You have destroyed my trust and I feel devastated. I have no interested in revenge only in getting back on my feet and doing what is best for our daughter first because she is the innocent one in this and to find a place to evaluate your sincerity.”
> 
> *I like it. I may use it. Copied and pasted it already for future consideration.*
> 
> I’m just saying think about this and come up with your position over the next few days.
> 
> Don’t be rude, if anything be a little detached. * It’s not so much what you say over the next weeks but what you do that will make a difference. * But you still want to be right in what you say to minimize her self justification, should she have any.
> 
> Don’t assume she is evil, she will show you by her actions if she is remorseful. Remorsefulness doesn’t always show up right away, be patient.
> 
> *No intention of being rude, and I don't think she's evil at all. I think she's a fool and weak and has some major issues that I didn't know about, but not evil.*
> 
> Don’t be baited into an argument, remember any mistakes you make in dealing with this pale in comparison to the $hit sandwich your wife has handed you.
> 
> If eventually you can get past that she can get past those.
> 
> You sound like a normal sensible man, don’t doubt yourself, follow your gut, be firm but kind.
> 
> Spend a lot of time with your daughter when you can.
> 
> PS I think you want the last “IS” in your paragraph to be an “IF”


Thanks. I'd truly be lost if I hadn't come here.


----------



## Chaparral

Whether as opposed to weather I think.

I would delete the part about being devastated......too early. I would replace it with "you destroyed our marriage/family, where we go from here is all on you, we may be able to rebuild but that's entirely up to you."


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Chaparral said:


> Whether as opposed to weather I think.
> 
> I would delete the part about being devastated......too early. I would replace it with "you destroyed our marriage/family, where we go from here is all on you, we may be able to rebuild but that's entirely up to you."


No there's no talk from me of devastation. I am copying and pasting bits and pieces that may be useful in future communications though.

I remember my WW being so outraged when some friends of ours broke up a year ago. It was a shock to everyone. They were married less than a year and he ran off with a co-worker. No kids were involved though. My WW totally cut off contact with the guy (as did I). 

Hypocrite. How does she now justify trashing two families?


----------



## tribesman

After reading the whole thread, you have to realize by now that this is pretty much hopeless. She doesn't care about you anymore, just D her and find someone better.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

tribesman said:


> After reading the whole thread, you have to realize by now that this is pretty much hopeless. She doesn't care about you anymore, just D her and find someone better.


That may be true, but I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet. I'm working as per the playbook, and if there a 10% chance that we can turn this around (and end up with a better marriage), then I'm going to play this though to the end. Don't worry though, I'm maintaining my self respect through the process. There is no begging from me, and I will not settle for anything less than WW returning to me for the right reasons (ie. loving me).

I'm standing firm and by my principals for my family. I will not walk away from this without being able to say that I gave it everything I had.


----------



## warlock07

Your wife thinks she is in love. You ust classified it as an addiction and infatuation. How well do you think she will take it? 

You may be right but she is in no state to process the information rationally and will probably see it as a desperate attempt to manipulate and to get her back with you(She thinks you are punishing by telling her family).

Stop sending her links like that.


----------



## Chaparral

You have to kill he affair from both ends. You HAVE to get in contact with omw and take him down. Get in touch with his employer and tell them you are looking into taking legal action against them. I'll bet they do not want to ruin their relationship with your wife's company in order to protect an immoral adulterer.


----------



## warlock07

Do you plan to make an official complaint ?


----------



## Iver

My sense from her comments is she is worried about the OM and what kind of s--storm will land on him if (when) you notify his wife.

I believe the uglier it ends up for the OM the better it will be for you...


----------



## dogman

This is my first post on this thread. 

Sorry for your troubles my friend.

I get fighting for her. Be prepared for a big turn about in your own feeling if you win her back. You are in a high adrenaline phase. After you have her back and calm down, it will sink in and you may find it harder for you to move forward than you think right now.
There's part of you that will wish you didn't R. That part will wish you just told her that you are too good for her. 

The process is longer than you realize.

My wife and I are 7 years out and it's still hard.


----------



## carmen ohio

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Ok, here's my email in reply. I got the article in there as well:
> 
> 
> FROM: Me
> TO: WW
> 
> No - only a select few people who will always love you unconditionally. And I have no intention of sending the email to anyone else. As I said, this is not about punishment. It's an intervention to ensure that your relationship with POSOM is entirely and immediately eliminated and to bring a secret destructive trait out into the clear light of day. I have (daughter) to think about, and regardless of whether or not we get back together, I cannot abide the thought of this kind of upheaval reoccurring every time you have an itch. I am worried about you and I am really concerned for (daughter). I would do the same if you were addicted to crack.
> 
> Anatomy of an Affair - The Chemistry of Love - Marriage AdvocatesMarriage Advocates
> 
> I'm sorry that this is uncomfortable for you, and you can call me anytime you want. I can help you through this is you want.


Dear NSTC,

Not sure if you've sent the note yet but, if you haven't, a few comments. First, don't promise not to disclose her affair to anyone else. Second, I would drop the reference to crack addiction and instead would say something about an affair being like an addiction. Third, I would drop the I'm sorry language and the offer to help: this is entirely on her and up to her to fix.

With these things in mind, here's what I'd say:

FROM: Me
TO: WW

No - only a few people who will always love you unconditionally. As I said, this is not about punishment. It's an intervention to ensure that your relationship with POSOM is ended once and for all and to bring a destructive trait of yours into the clear light of day. I have (daughter) to think about and, regardless of whether or not we get back together, I cannot abide the thought of this kind of upheaval reoccurring every time you have an itch. An affair is like an addiction and therefore difficult to end, which is another reason an intervention is called for. In this regard, you may find the following article, instructive.

Anatomy of an Affair - The Chemistry of Love - Marriage AdvocatesMarriage Advocates

I realize that this is uncomfortable for you but that is simply a consequence of what you have done. It is much harder for me, since I am the one who was betrayed. It is for me, not you, to decide how best to deal with your infidelity.

+++

Let me add my congratulations for how well you are dealing with this and my best wishes to you and for family that things work out the way you want them to.


----------



## Gabriel

warlock07 said:


> Your wife thinks she is in love. You ust classified it as an addiction and infatuation. How well do you think she will take it?
> 
> You may be right but she is in no state to process the information rationally and will probably see it as a desperate attempt to manipulate and to get her back with you(She thinks you are punishing by telling her family).
> 
> Stop sending her links like that.


His wife thinks she's in love? Didn't get that impression, but maybe I'm wrong. Seems to me she enjoys the sexual attention her looks get from men. Didn't think she was seeking an emotional connection from her cheating partners.

I tell ya, if I was with a GF or fiance, and found out she cheated on previous people, I would run for the hills. Something is just broken about someone like that. 

Sounds like the OP didn't know about this until he was already married?


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Gabriel said:


> His wife thinks she's in love? Didn't get that impression, but maybe I'm wrong. Seems to me she enjoys the sexual attention her looks get from men. Didn't think she was seeking an emotional connection from her cheating partners.
> 
> I tell ya, if I was with a GF or fiance, and found out she cheated on previous people, I would run for the hills. Something is just broken about someone like that.
> 
> Sounds like the OP didn't know about this until he was already married?


I didn't know until a week ago. I asked her if she had cheated in previous relationships. She said she had, but I don't know whether this means once or 10 times, or which relationships they were.


----------



## TDSC60

She is showing the pattern of a serial cheater. This kind of women have some deep seated mental instability. They do not wake up one day and think "What have I done - I am going to change". This is not going to happen.

Even if you think she is showing and doing all you require to R, that does not change her mentality. She will do it again. Sorry.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

TDSC60 said:


> She is showing the pattern of a serial cheater. This kind of women have some deep seated mental instability. They do not wake up one day and think "What have I done - I am going to change". This is not going to happen.
> 
> Even if you think she is showing and doing all you require to R, that does not change her mentality. She will do it again. Sorry.


This may be true, maybe not. What's the definition of a serial cheater? If someone cheats more than once (say twice), are you saying that there is no hope for reform?

The majority of affairs are swept under the rug and there are no consequences. Hence no introspection or treatment. This is not the case here.

Does anyone know how a potential serial cheater would go about reforming? I'm guessing IC?

I don't know if this is the issue here - all I know is that it's not a first for her - thats all.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

NeverSawThisComing said:


> This may be true, maybe not. What's the definition of a serial cheater? If someone cheats more than once (say twice), are you saying that there is no hope for reform?


Based on your information he is saying there is a good chance it is no. Not her first is why the term serial is being used. As to consequences, she is with you not any of those other men. That doesn't sound like rug sweeping or lack of consequences to me.

You must do what you want, but don't go in blind.


----------



## TDSC60

NeverSawThisComing said:


> This may be true, maybe not. What's the definition of a serial cheater? If someone cheats more than once (say twice), are you saying that there is no hope for reform?
> 
> The majority of affairs are swept under the rug and there are no consequences. Hence no introspection or treatment. This is not the case here.
> 
> Does anyone know how a potential serial cheater would go about reforming? I'm guessing IC?
> 
> I don't know if this is the issue here - all I know is that it's not a first for her - thats all.


A classic serial cheater is someone who has had multiple affairs. They mentally cannot be satisfied with one person who loves them. They are compelled to seek attention from the opposite sex. To assure they get that attention and keep it, they offer sex.

IC can help but it takes a long long time. It is like an addiction that can return at anytime. Think alcoholic or drug addict. All it takes is one drink, even after years of sobriety, and they are back to their bad habits.

When you said she had been unfaithful in previous relationship and you did not know if it was 1 or 10 times, to me, that is a serial cheater.

I do not know if this is the type of person your wife is or not. Just know that if she fits this mold then the chances of her doing it again a greater than the chances that she will not.

Your choice. It will be a gamble either way.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Thanks for the explanation. I certainly do not intend to set myself up for failure, and whether or not she fits that mold is one of my primary considerations going forward. If we get to counselling, I'll definitely be pressing for more details so that I'm not going in blind. And if there's no counselling, then it's D.


----------



## Shaggy

Serial cheaters never reform. It's not in their DNA.

Stop being apologetic or minimizing in your emails, you keep talking to her like she's a delicate flower whom you are afraid of upsetting.

She happily cheated in you, and then looked you in the eye and told you she would not commit to stopping having sex with him. Seriously, it ok to be angry.

She doesn't get to tell you who you tell the truth to, and you should never be defending or justifying your actions to her. It only empowers her and makes her feel in control,

And btw, you should be giving her consequences for betraying you and cheating, it's actually a good thing if you hope to R.

Consequences are the opposite of rug sweeping,


----------



## life101

"Oh what have I done? How could I do this to you?"

Let me remember where I have heard this before.  

A cheater stays in a relationship only when there is not enough suitable outside options. The moment there appears a greener pasture suitable enough, the cheater will leave.

The basis of a successful relationship are respect and trust. By cheating, a cheater has already shown the lack of respect for the BS.


----------



## Dyokemm

I do not think that serial cheaters, or anyone with any problem for that matter, can NEVER reform themselves.

But I believe such complete 180's in an individual's personality and pattern of living are EXTREMELY rare. It is the reason why recidivism in crime and relapses in addictions are so common as to almost be expected.

In the case of a serial cheater, it is just not worth the time and hurt for a BS to try to work through it at all. 

If they choose to try, then they need to mentally and emotionally prepare themselves for the PROBABILITY (not possibility) that their WS will relapse into their pattern of behavior. 

This is especially likely given that any R will be highly stressful and emotional, prime circumstances for the WS to want to run away and find comfort in familiar patterns.


----------



## Chaparral

When are you going home?


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

In a week and a half I'll be back.

It just occurred to me that I probably wouldn't have found out if I has at home. She's been good at deleting emails, but got sloppy while I was away.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

I just thought I'd write a bit of an update on how I'm progressing. This post is about me, not the marriage.

1. I've read MMSL, and will start implementing immediately. I wish I read it a year ago. We would not have moved to HK unless I also had a job lined up. I think my rank dropped at least two points during that process.

2. I've read the 180, and have been implementing for a few days already. Texts or emails to WW have been short and cordial, and I've dropped the word 'babe' from my vocabulary.

3. I'm getting a life. I've already joined a HK hiking group to get me out of the house and meet people. HK is 70% mountainous forest, so I'm looking forward to seeing it and getting fit at the same time. I'm also going to get my bike out of storage and get back into cycling (I used to be quite fit).

4. There's a great gym in my apartment building - I'm going to use it vigorously.

5. Get a job as soon as possible. I've been too picky before without any success. Perhaps I should consider stepping down a rung on the ladder for a little while till I get established here. An expectation of moving straight back into a senior role having just moved to a completely different country was perhaps not very realistic.

6. I've already lost several pounds since this started, but I think I've got about 15 more to go. Already noticing it around my middle and in my face.

7. Make an effort to start talking with women, confidently and assertively, especially if WW is around.

I think that should set me up for a MMSL sex rank increase of 2-3 points.


Any other suggestions would be welcome


----------



## Dyokemm

Personally, I'd be more open and assertive about talking to other females, especially when she is around.

Not flirty or emotionally connecting, but enough of an interaction that she noticed.

This serves 2 purposes IMO.

1) It shows that you will have no problem moving on from her. 

2) It will remind her that other women have an interest in you.

She needs to really see and understand that you are not some sure thing doormat that she can have anytime she wants with no effort from her.

She needs to realize she could very well lose you.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Dyokemm said:


> Personally, I'd be more open and assertive about talking to other females, especially when she is around.
> 
> Not flirty or emotionally connecting, but enough of an interaction that she noticed.
> 
> This serves 2 purposes IMO.
> 
> 1) It shows that you will have no problem moving on from her.
> 
> 2) It will remind her that other women have an interest in you.
> 
> She needs to really see and understand that you are not some sure thing doormat that she can have anytime she wants with no effort from her.
> 
> She needs to realize she could very well lose you.


Great one. I've added it to my list.


----------



## happyman64

NeverSawThisComing said:


> No there's no talk from me of devastation. I am copying and pasting bits and pieces that may be useful in future communications though.
> 
> I remember my WW being so outraged when some friends of ours broke up a year ago. It was a shock to everyone. They were married less than a year and he ran off with a co-worker. No kids were involved though. My WW totally cut off contact with the guy (as did I).
> 
> Hypocrite. How does she now justify trashing two families?


You should remind her of this event and how she acted.

It calls to question her long term integrity.....


----------



## LostViking

What integrity? Where?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

NSTC

Get in shape.

Get a job.

These are all positive steps.

And a little voice in the back of her head will be telling her "Wow, he is going to replace me..."

You will neither confirm or deny.

Stay positive, focused and committed to seeing this lousy event through to its conclusion.

It will force your wife to deal with her issues.

HM


----------



## EleGirl

NeverSawThisComing said:


> This may be true, maybe not. What's the definition of a serial cheater? If someone cheats more than once (say twice), are you saying that there is no hope for reform?


The definition of a serial cheater is someone who cheats more than once. Typically it's someone who cheats a lot more than 2 times. My experience is that a true serial cheater has no conscience when it comes to cheating. 



NeverSawThisComing said:


> The majority of affairs are swept under the rug and there are no consequences. Hence no introspection or treatment. This is not the case here.


Doing things to make the WS take responsibility for the affair will stop a lot of people from repeat cheating. I’ve seen it happen. Your telling your in-laws about your wife’s affair will go a long way to stop her from ever cheating again. Affairs depend on secrecy. Your wife is upset right now. That’s good.


NeverSawThisComing said:


> Does anyone know how a potential serial cheater would go about reforming? I'm guessing IC?


IC and MC help as lot. People who cheat have weak boundaries. One way for them to avoid cheating again is to structure the marriage in a way that makes it hard for them to create the secret second life that is needed for an affair. Some of these things are complete transparency in the marriage. This means that you both know all passwords for all online accounts, cell phone, computers, etc. You both agree that the other can check anything at any time. Even snail mail is not private between you.

Agreeing that all computers in the home will have keystroke monitors on them and either of you can check the logs. It’s best to have a keylogger that sends the data files to an email account or a website so that they cannot be easily deleted.

Implement a policy of radical honesty in the marriage.
The Policy of Radical Honesty

One thing to be careful of is that all of this applies to both spouses. While only one might have cheated initially, revenge affairs are very common. Once you have been cheated on the chances are pretty high that you will cheat sometime in the next 2 years or so.

It takes most BSs 2-5 years to recover from an affair. We go through a lot of emotional turmoil. One thing that a lot of BSs experience is a strong desire to cheat. You are not far enough along in the emotional cycles that follow discovery. But at some point you might very well have thoughts of cheating. Leveling the playing field. So a lot of BS give into this.

So the rules of protection apply to both of you, not just the original cheater.



NeverSawThisComing said:


> I don't know if this is the issue here - all I know is that it's not a first for her - that’s all.


The same protects need to be in place no matter what.


----------



## tribesman

What's the point of being in a relationship if you can't have privacy and trust with one another? Just D and find someone else, someone that will treat you right.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

My wife just called. Started off with small talk about our daughter, then I asked what's on her mind.

She said that her mother and brother aren't talking to her - they're so upset with what she's done. I said that will change over time. She's not convinced, as her mother went though the same thing as me several years ago, which obviously devastated the family and ended in divorce.

She said she doesn't know what I was trying to achieve with the emails, but I just shouldn't have done that

She said that she was wanting to see if we could work it out with counselling, but not now that I've exposed this to her family.

She said we should divorce.

I said that's fine. It is what it is. I said that honestly I was thinking the same. What you've done has made me question everything anyway. You've poisoned everything we once had.

She said that I don't understand her, and she doesn't understand me, and what she did isn't right, and we should have had this conversation a year ago.

I said well, the decision is made - the rest is just logistics. We both agreed that everything will be done with our daughter's best interests in mind.

I ended the conversation shortly after that. She was delaying hanging up, but I said there's nothing more to say. Goodnight. She hesitated for a while and then said goodnight.

What a phone call.

Have I done the right thing by exposing to her family? I haven't yet exposed to OMW. She'll think I'm being vindictive.

Should I stay the course and proceed with OMW?

Anyone want to take any bets on the survival of my marriage? To be totally honest, I want our family back together - I'm just doing the 180 here.

Tough phone call.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Consequences are never easy. All this tells me is she was looking for a way out. You don't understand her? What's there to understand about cheating? If you were abuse, cheating yourself, distant, punishing her by withholding sex or a few other reasons I could see a LONG SHOT explanation as to this excuse.
Normal ups and down, plus a year? Naw, she wanted to cake eat. There are people that should never get married IMO. My sister and a good friend are still single. When they realize it isn't the guy, they break up. Yes, it sucks, but it is that simple. No, compromised integrity or morals.


----------



## Truthseeker1

NeverSawThisComing said:


> My wife just called. Started off with small talk about our daughter, then I asked what's on her mind.
> 
> She said that her mother and brother aren't talking to her - they're so upset with what she's done. I said that will change over time. She's not convinced, as her mother went though the same thing as me several years ago, which obviously devastated the family and ended in divorce.
> 
> She said she doesn't know what I was trying to achieve with the emails, but I just shouldn't have done that
> 
> *She said that she was wanting to see if we could work it out with counselling, but not now that I've exposed this to her family.*
> 
> She said we should divorce.
> 
> I said that's fine. It is what it is. I said that honestly I was thinking the same. What you've done has made me question everything anyway. You've poisoned everything we once had.
> 
> She said that I don't understand her, and she doesn't understand me, and what she did isn't right, and we should have had this conversation a year ago.
> 
> I said well, the decision is made - the rest is just logistics. We both agreed that everything will be done with our daughter's best interests in mind.
> 
> I ended the conversation shortly after that. She was delaying hanging up, but I said there's nothing more to say. Goodnight. She hesitated for a while and then said goodnight.
> 
> What a phone call.
> 
> Have I done the right thing by exposing to her family? I haven't yet exposed to OMW. She'll think I'm being vindictive.
> *
> Should I stay the course and proceed with OMW?*
> 
> Anyone want to take any bets on the survival of my marriage? To be totally honest, I want our family back together - I'm just doing the 180 here.
> 
> Tough phone call.


Her statement about wanting to work it out but now wont is a total lie..if she wanted to work it out - you would both be in counseling. How many remorseful WSs on TAM endured exposure - some at their own hand - to win back their BS. She wanted a tidy rugsweeping..no way

You definitely should expose this to the OMW - you need to go for TOTAL exposure - this sordid affair needs the disinfectant of sunlight. Affairs don't look so romantic when they hit the sunlight..Affairs are like vampires - both do not react well to sunlight.


----------



## Tobyboy

Continue the 180, get your ducks in a row, lawyer up ASAP! File for divorce, expose to the posom's wife, and her employer! Your WW has never suffered consequences for her betrayals, that's why she's acting out this way. Your priority now should be you and your D security. Also, expect more affairs to be uncovered. Don't assume this is the first in your M. Take care and keep posting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LostViking

You did good. Proceed with D. If she really wanted to save the marriage she would be fighting and begging for it. No, she is lazy. In her mind she will either get back with the OM or replace you with another guy. Just like she replaced her prior partner with you. 

Protect yourself legally and get away from this woman. She is poison.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

Yes you did the right thing by exposing the affair.

Right now she’s trying to punish you for doing that. She probably expected you to back down and beg for her forgiveness when she said that she wanted a divorce now. She wants a recovery on her terms. You have now let her know that any recovery will be on your terms and she will be held accountable.

Don’t be surprise, not that you agreed to a divorce, if she gets remorseful and starts begging you to take her back.


----------



## Shaggy

You absolutely need to expose to the OMW because now that she's talking D, she's going to feel free to hook back up with the OM. You need to warn his wife ASAP

I suggest you get yourself and your daughter back home, where you have friends ,family, and job prospects.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Sorry, I had to go back to the beginning.

NSTC remember this?


> She doesn't know if it's repairable, and suspects it may be too late.


She was done when you found out, she was just waiting for a reason to blame you. IMO, it has nothing to do with the outing to the parents, she would have found another reason.


----------



## Chaparral

Yes, by now she knows you haven't told his wife. She may think she can still work that to her advantage.

Most say something like she did. It doesn't usually mean anything. She was shocked you did not fold and apologize then beg her back. 

She was hanging on to the convo because she doesn't really want this to be over.

This is a really bad time to be away but it may work to your advantage. 

Look up the 180, most people think it means you are now enemies. The point is to be aloof and pleasant. Like you would be to a stranger. Many wayward ives have second thoughts as they process what their new reality is going to be. On the other hand, she may shock you with her hard heart.

You will just have to play it by ear.. Try to contact omw as soon as possible and get everything on the table. It will be to your advantage if he is desperate to save his family and throws your wife under the bus. This can shock a ww 
Back to earth.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Chaparral said:


> Yes, by now she knows you haven't told his wife. She may think she can still work that to her advantage.
> 
> Most say something like she did. It doesn't usually mean anything. She was shocked you did not fold and apologize then beg her back.
> 
> She was hanging on to the convo because she doesn't really want this to be over.
> 
> This is a really bad time to be away but it may work to your advantage.
> 
> Look up the 180, most people think it means you are now enemies. The point is to be aloof and pleasant. Like you would be to a stranger. Many wayward ives have second thoughts as they process what their new reality is going to be. On the other hand, she may shock you with her hard heart.
> 
> You will just have to play it by ear.. Try to contact omw as soon as possible and get everything on the table. It will be to your advantage if he is desperate to save his family and throws your wife under the bus. This can shock a ww
> Back to earth.


Yes, I'm doing the 180 - aloof and pleasant. I had to bite my tongue a couple of times to not get drawn into any kind of argument. I recorded the conversation actually, and I think I was calm throughout, but a little stilted. It's weird hearing your own voice in a recording.

It's good that I'm away, as I don't know how this would have gone face to face.


----------



## Chaparral

Put the onus on her, pleasantly of course. Leave her alone. If and when she calls and starts talking about something other that your child or household business, ask her if the two of you should be talking about anything like that since she is wanting a divorce.

I still think she was fishing.


----------



## Chaparral

Btw, you need to talk to an attorney back home. What are the logistical problems of divorce while living in a foreign country? What if you could get a much better job back home?


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Chaparral said:


> Put the onus on her, pleasantly of course. Leave her alone. If and when she calls and starts talking about something other that your child or household business, ask her if the two of you should be talking about anything like that since she is wanting a divorce.
> 
> I still think she was fishing.


I'll be leaving her alone.

My main focus at the moment is minimising the impact on my daughter, as well as upping my MMSL sex rank (via a job, fitness and getting my life together). This will ensure a positive outcome for my daughter and I regardless of whether or not my wife and I get back together.

Yes, she may be fishing. Time will tell.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Chaparral said:


> Btw, you need to talk to an attorney back home. What are the logistical problems of divorce while living in a foreign country? What if you could get a much better job back home?


I'm going to stick around in HK. This is the best outcome for my daughter. My WW may be at the top of my sh!t list at the moment, but she's a good mum in every other respect.

Divorce in Australia requires a year of separation and a lot can happen in that time, especially if the affair is nuked and the fog lifts.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Decorum said:


> I have been thinking that this might have been her end game all along.
> 
> *Me too.*
> 
> 
> If she could not rug sweep and lull you it would have come to this, maybe should have a year ago when she checked out of your marriage.
> 
> *Completely agree. And I'd still have my old job.*
> 
> 
> Do you really think things could have been better if you had taken any other course?
> 
> *No, I don't*
> 
> 
> Be a man, stay strong, let her deal with her choices.
> 
> I would still tell OMW personally.
> 
> *Hopefully this will be possible later in the week*
> 
> 
> If she is done it does not matter what she thinks, if she is not she will get over it.
> 
> If she says anything tell her that "if we should have had this conversation a year ago and that would have spared you the pain of your betrayal then the sooner the omw knows the better".
> 
> You cannot change the things that are, she is willing to split her family and divorce you because you told her parents, but you were willing to reconcile with after such a disrespectful and damaging betrayal, really?
> 
> Where do you think her head is really at?
> 
> You have been preparing for this in you working on you and the 180.
> 
> A remorseful WS will move heaven and earth to keep the relationship together and working..
> 
> I am sorry.
> 
> Again don't assume anything until it happens and don't weaken, because I think Chaparral may be right she has done this before, its like a threat, don't take it hook line and sinker
> 
> *I still can't decide whether it's a threat or not. Anyway, time will tell*
> 
> Take care!
> 
> *Thank you and goodnight. I'm off to bed!*


----------



## TDSC60

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I'm going to stick around in HK. This is the best outcome for my daughter. My WW may be at the top of my sh!t list at the moment, but she's a good mum in every other respect.
> 
> Divorce in Australia requires a year of separation and a lot can happen in that time, especially if the affair is nuked and the fog lifts.


But the affair is not nuked yet. You have to tell OM's wife. She deserves to know what a POS her husband is. And don't rationalize that it makes YOU look vindictive. Don't you wish someone who knew about your wife and OM had had the balls to come forward and tell you?


----------



## tom67

TDSC60 said:


> But the affair is not nuked yet. You have to tell OM's wife. She deserves to know what a POS her husband is. And don't rationalize that it makes YOU look vindictive. Don't you wish someone who knew about your wife and OM had had the balls to come forward and tell you?


Notice how stunned your wife was when you agreed with her on divorce you didn't crumble and beg good job now finish it by telling the omw. If it was thee other way around I'm sure you would want to know.


----------



## Dyokemm

OP,

Definitely expose the POS to his W. She will really need this information now because your WW will now feel entitled to continue her A with this piece of filth. His BW has the right to know and to protect herself and her family from these two scummy people.

Also, file a formal complaint with HR and the company. 

Do not go to her immediate boss. I think he was actually helping her to do damage control when she went to him earlier. Their plan was to make minor changes to her travel schedule, etc., to keep this entire thing under wraps so it did not threaten either of the scumbag's careers.

Go to her boss' superior and the head of the HR department. Nuke their jobs.

These two seem to have no qualms about destroying other people's lives. Give them a taste of their own medicine.

I hope they both get terminated.

Then file and do a hard 180.

If there is any chance at all of snapping your foolish W out of this affair fog and making her really remorseful, she will have to see her entire life crumbling around her.

Right now she sees her personal/family life collapsing, but she still feels empowered to be defiant and unrepentant because she still possesses her dream career.

She is thinking she will just move on, replace you, and eventually her family will get over it. Plus, she probably is thinking that now she can openly lean on POS for support, and they can make plans to build their dream life together.

If you nuke their careers and make him scramble to save his own a** and family, this little fantasy world she is in will blow up.

Only then, maybe, will she snap out of this and see what she has truly done and what she stands to lose.

You have to prioritize your M over her job if you want any chance at R.


----------



## theroad

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Sorry, but what was your point? So many people here are helping me stay positive (regardless of outcome), but upon reading some posts that indicate that I might be having a rough night, your response is this? Grow up.


I read it as motivation for doing a full exposure on the OM.

If work connection the expose OM at work.

Expose to OM parents, siblings, kids, relatives.

Get on OM FB then copy ad paste his FB friends list. Then do a full FB exposure.


----------



## tribesman

Lift lots of weights dawg and go find someone who will treat you right.


----------



## Chaparral

The situations here are similar to shamwow's thread.

Have you ever gotten the impression she drinks a lot while on the road?

There have been a ton of threads here where traveling spouses have cheated, particularly when they are working with the same people while away from home.

Drinking and loneliness make for a wicked c*cktail.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Decorum, thank you so much for what you've written here. Its given me a lot to think about and clears my mind somewhat as to how to proceed and what my mindset should be going forward.

I'm confident that I'm handling the situation correctly regardless of the outcome.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Machiavelli

NeverSawThisComing said:


> She said she doesn't know what I was trying to achieve with the emails, but I just shouldn't have done that
> 
> She said that she was wanting to see if we could work it out with counselling, *but not now that I've exposed this to her family.
> *
> She said we should divorce.


As was previously predicted. This is pretty much SOP when a woman's "rationalization hamster" can't square the circle of her sexual actions (limbic) vs. her moral beliefs (cortex). You are forcing her to confront her wickedness and hypocrisy, which she can handle by denial (as she has probably done since the beginning of your relationship), but you've put a twist on it by going "public." You just dammed denial.

I don't get the impression, though, that your wife is really new to adultery. I think you're seeing the tip of the iceberg:


----------



## tom67

Machiavelli said:


> As was previously predicted. This is pretty much SOP when a woman's "rationalization hamster" can't square the circle of her sexual actions (limbic) vs. her moral beliefs (cortex). You are forcing her to confront her wickedness and hypocrisy, which she can handle by denial (as she has probably done since the beginning of your relationship), but you've put a twist on it by going "public." You just dammed denial.
> 
> I don't get the impression, though, that your wife is really new to adultery. I think you're seeing the tip of the iceberg:


Stay the course captain stay the course.


----------



## warlock07

NeverSawThisComing said:


> My wife just called. Started off with small talk about our daughter, then I asked what's on her mind.
> 
> She said that her mother and brother aren't talking to her - they're so upset with what she's done. I said that will change over time. She's not convinced, as her mother went though the same thing as me several years ago, which obviously devastated the family and ended in divorce.
> 
> She said she doesn't know what I was trying to achieve with the emails, but I just shouldn't have done that
> 
> She said that she was wanting to see if we could work it out with counselling, but not now that I've exposed this to her family.
> 
> She said we should divorce.
> 
> I said that's fine. It is what it is. I said that honestly I was thinking the same. What you've done has made me question everything anyway. You've poisoned everything we once had.
> 
> She said that I don't understand her, and she doesn't understand me, and what she did isn't right, and we should have had this conversation a year ago.
> 
> I said well, the decision is made - the rest is just logistics. We both agreed that everything will be done with our daughter's best interests in mind.
> 
> I ended the conversation shortly after that. She was delaying hanging up, but I said there's nothing more to say. Goodnight. She hesitated for a while and then said goodnight.
> 
> What a phone call.
> 
> Have I done the right thing by exposing to her family? I haven't yet exposed to OMW. She'll think I'm being vindictive.
> 
> Should I stay the course and proceed with OMW?
> 
> Anyone want to take any bets on the survival of my marriage? To be totally honest, I want our family back together - I'm just doing the 180 here.
> 
> Tough phone call.



You did extremely well. The threatening divorce because you exposed is a part of the cheater's script. It is part of manipulations and negotiations. It was intended to make you feel exactly like you did. You did not damage your chances of reconciling to a better marriage. In fact you increased your chances to, even though it does not seem to be at the moment. If this ends up in a divorce, you never had a chance anyway and it was an exit affair.


----------



## tom67

warlock07 said:


> You did extremely well. The threatening divorce because you exposed is a part of the cheater's script. It is part of manipulations and negotiations. It was intended to make you feel exactly like you did. You did not damage your chances of reconciling to a better marriage. In fact you increased your chances to, even though it does not seem to be at the moment. If this ends up in a divorce, you never had a chance anyway and it was an exit affair.


Go back to aussie land get a job and go for it from there jmo.


----------



## tom67

I like her family already frankly they support your marriage.


----------



## warlock07

Have to considered filing an official complaint with the HR ? Do you have the proof for it ?


----------



## tom67

warlock07 said:


> Have to considered filing an official complaint with the HR ? Do you have the proof for it ?


Warlock he is a guy in England or Aussietown he has one strike against him.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

tom67 said:


> I like her family already frankly they support your marriage.


Absolutely. So do I. I can talk about any subject with my MIL. I'm actually far closer to her family than my own, so my MIL is the mother figure in my life. Even if we divorce I'll go across to the UK to visit them from time to time. The Dad's a great bloke too, and I have a lot of time and respect for him.

They know from first hand experience how much this kind of behaviour poisons everything, and this news about their daughter is very hard for them to take.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

warlock07 said:


> Have to considered filing an official complaint with the HR ? Do you have the proof for it ?


I'm not killing her career. I've talked off the record with her boss, and he's helped me out with information. That's enough contact from me with the workplace.

If telling her family and the OMW doesn't achieve the result I'm looking for then nothing will. This would mean divorce, in which case I need WW to be gainfully employed to support my daughter.

Not going there.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Can someone please point me to an OMW sample letter? Search isn't working for me for some reason.

Thanks.


----------



## cpacan

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Can someone please point me to an OMW sample letter? Search isn't working for me for some reason.
> 
> Thanks.


I found this post:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...er-cheating-says-she-wants-me.html#post442013


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

I think I fell off the 180 a little today, email-wise. If you haven't read through previous posts, we amicably agreed last night to divorce. I was a 180 star last night, but I may have come across as caring too much in the emails below. Not sure.

------------------------------
Her: Are you ok? I'm not.

Me: Depends on your definition of OK. I have a pulse and a plan going forward. I'll grow through this experience I'm sure. I won't let it scar me. That part's ok. 

My family is blown up. You chose to have an affair rather than work on our marriage (or even have a conversation about it), and my daughter will suffer immeasurably because of that. In that respect, I'm not ok.

Her: I know I have made 2 big mistakes and I didn't think through the consequences of my actions, however (daughter) won't suffer immeasurably because the one thing we have in common is that we both love her more than anything. We both have our different ways of being a parent and she will always benefit from having both of us in her life. There is no need for that to change in the foreseeable future. 

It would be good if we can work on a plan together and it might be useful if we do go and see a mediation person or someone to help us sort through everything. 

Me: That sounds like a good plan.
--------------------------

Did I fall off the plan? If so, what would have been a better response from me to the initial email for future reference?

She was quite chatty and happy during my regular Skype with my daughter an hour ago. I kept our interaction about our daughter, and had a great time talking with my daughter, but WW's demeanor was the same as before DDay, which is a total contrast to previous couple of grumpy Skypes since I emailed her family.

Not quite sure what to make of it. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, and she was just keeping things upbeat for our daughter.


----------



## bfree

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I think I fell off the 180 a little today, email-wise. If you haven't read through previous posts, we amicably agreed last night to divorce. I was a 180 star last night, but I may have come across as caring too much in the emails below. Not sure.
> 
> ------------------------------
> Her: Are you ok? I'm not.
> 
> Me: Depends on your definition of OK. I have a pulse and a plan going forward. I'll grow through this experience I'm sure. I won't let it scar me. That part's ok.
> 
> My family is blown up. You chose to have an affair rather than work on our marriage (or even have a conversation about it), and my daughter will suffer immeasurably because of that. In that respect, I'm not ok.
> 
> Her: I know I have made 2 big mistakes and I didn't think through the consequences of my actions, however (daughter) won't suffer immeasurably because the one thing we have in common is that we both love her more than anything. We both have our different ways of being a parent and she will always benefit from having both of us in her life. There is no need for that to change in the foreseeable future.
> 
> It would be good if we can work on a plan together and it might be useful if we do go and see a mediation person or someone to help us sort through everything.
> 
> Me: That sounds like a good plan.
> --------------------------
> 
> Did I fall off the plan? If so, what would have been a better response from me to the initial email for future reference?
> 
> She was quite chatty and happy during my regular Skype with my daughter an hour ago. I kept our interaction about our daughter, and had a great time talking with my daughter, but WW's demeanor was the same as before DDay, which is a total contrast to previous couple of grumpy Skypes since I emailed her family.
> 
> Not quite sure what to make of it. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, and she was just keeping things upbeat for our daughter.


She is relieved because she thinks her life is going to get simpler with a divorce. All the turmoil she has caused will be magically wiped clean. The realities of divorce which you can clearly see she cannot. She is in for a rude awakening.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I think I fell off the 180 a little today, email-wise. If you haven't read through previous posts, we amicably agreed last night to divorce. I was a 180 star last night, but I may have come across as caring too much in the emails below. Not sure.
> 
> ------------------------------
> Her: Are you ok? I'm not.
> 
> Me: Depends on your definition of OK. I have a pulse and a plan going forward. I'll grow through this experience I'm sure. I won't let it scar me. That part's ok.
> 
> My family is blown up. You chose to have an affair rather than work on our marriage (or even have a conversation about it), and my daughter will suffer immeasurably because of that. In that respect, I'm not ok.
> 
> Her: I know I have made 2 big mistakes and I didn't think through the consequences of my actions, however (daughter) won't suffer immeasurably because the one thing we have in common is that we both love her more than anything. We both have our different ways of being a parent and she will always benefit from having both of us in her life. There is no need for that to change in the foreseeable future.
> 
> It would be good if we can work on a plan together and it might be useful if we do go and see a mediation person or someone to help us sort through everything.
> 
> Me: That sounds like a good plan.
> --------------------------
> 
> Did I fall off the plan? If so, what would have been a better response from me to the initial email for future reference?
> 
> She was quite chatty and happy during my regular Skype with my daughter an hour ago. I kept our interaction about our daughter, and had a great time talking with my daughter, but WW's demeanor was the same as before DDay, which is a total contrast to previous couple of grumpy Skypes since I emailed her family.
> 
> Not quite sure what to make of it. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, and she was just keeping things upbeat for our daughter.


Her: Are you ok? I'm not.

Me: Your point? 

Her: I know I have made 2 big mistakes and I didn't think through the consequences of my actions, however (daughter) won't suffer immeasurably because the one thing we have in common is that we both love her more than anything. We both have our different ways of being a parent and she will always benefit from having both of us in her life. There is no need for that to change in the foreseeable future. 

It would be good if we can work on a plan together and it might be useful if we do go and see a mediation person or someone to help us sort through everything. 

Me: Mediation: I let you know after I speak to my attorney.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Decorum said:


> No real damage done. But it will be hard on you to keep engaging her about the relationship, that is why it is not recommended.
> 
> She is glad that you are going to move on. Wow.
> 
> BTW the 180 is for your benefit not for hers, its so you can heal and deal with the reality of the situation
> 
> *What were her 2 big mistakes, one is the affair, but maybe I'm being thick I don't get what #2 would be. Maybe not saying something sooner?*
> 
> Bfree is right she is way to happy about this outcome, it sound like she is looking forward to being single. I'm sorry I know that will cut if its true.
> 
> She is more broken than I thought if that is the case.
> 
> I would stay detached from this point on.
> 
> She did not have the courage or integrity to deal with the marriage in an honest and honorable way.
> 
> You need to be strong here for your own wellbeing and for your daughter.
> 
> Take care!


Yes, the mistakes she's referring to are not telling me how she felt about our relationship, and then having an affair.

EDIT: And I'll stick to the 180 even if for no one else but me.
I have my first hike with the HK hiking group the Sunday after I get home, and really looking forward to it.


----------



## Gabriel

bfree said:


> She is relieved because she thinks her life is going to get simpler with a divorce. All the turmoil she has caused will be magically wiped clean. The realities of divorce which you can clearly see she cannot. She is in for a rude awakening.


I could not agree with this more.


----------



## bfree

Oh and if anyone asks why you are divorcing her tell them its not solely because she cheated but that she cheated and doesn't care. Some may want to try to talk you out of the divorce but nobody will ask you to stay with a remorseless cheater.


----------



## Nucking Futs

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Yes, the mistakes she's referring to are not telling me how she felt about our relationship, and then having an affair.
> 
> EDIT: And I'll stick to the 180 even if for no one else but me.
> *I have my first hike with the HK hiking group the Sunday after I get home*, and really looking forward to it.


Don't tell her what you're doing. If she asks, either just tell her you're going out or tell her that it's no longer any of her business where you go or what you do if your daughter is not involved.


----------



## Cubby

bfree said:


> She is relieved because she thinks her life is going to get simpler with a divorce. All the turmoil she has caused will be magically wiped clean. The realities of divorce which you can clearly see she cannot. She is in for a rude awakening.


It sounds like she thinks she'll run off with the OM. Maybe I missed something, but OM is still married, right? And we don't know if he's considering leaving his wife. So that means NSTC's wife is probably delusional about what the future holds for her.


----------



## mahike

I think your wife is more screwed up then you know. I am glad you are getting support from her family that is rare. You do not have to be a nice guy with her. My response with her comment about we both have different ways of parenting would be "why yes I will teach our daughter to keep her vows and not spread her legs for other men" I know that is harsh but you need not keep your feelings bottled up.

How is it going with IC for you?


----------



## bfree

Cubby said:


> It sounds like she thinks she'll run off with the OM. Maybe I missed something, but OM is still married, right? And we don't know if he's considering leaving his wife. So that means NSTC's wife is probably delusional about what the future holds for her.


Aren't they all?


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Nucking Futs said:


> Don't tell her what you're doing. If she asks, either just tell her you're going out or tell her that it's no longer any of her business where you go or what you do if your daughter is not involved.


Genius. I wouldn't have thought of that. Thanks.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Cubby said:


> It sounds like she thinks she'll run off with the OM. Maybe I missed something, but OM is still married, right? And we don't know if he's considering leaving his wife. So that means NSTC's wife is probably delusional about what the future holds for her.


I should have a surprise for OM soon. Watch this space. He's about to get a sudden urge to throw WW under the nearest bus. I predict about 2-3 days from now.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

mahike said:


> I think your wife is more screwed up then you know. I am glad you are getting support from her family that is rare. You do not have to be a nice guy with her. My response with her comment about we both have different ways of parenting would be "why yes I will teach our daughter to keep her vows and not spread her legs for other men" I know that is harsh but you need not keep your feelings bottled up.
> 
> How is it going with IC for you?


No IC for me yet. I know I need it though.

I like your comment on parenting styles. I'll save it for a rainy day if it all becomes irreparable.


----------



## LostViking

She is in a safe delusional place of her own making. You see she thinks that if she believes hard enough that everything is okay, and that the divorce will solve all her problems and bury a of her sins then if she believes this hard enough then it will come to pass. Conversely, if she believes it hard enough then everyone else in her life, including her betrayed spouse, will come around to her way of thinking also. 

It is the most pathetic form of denial there is. The sad outcome is that this flimsy house of cards she has built to shelter herself from the fallout if her deceit cannot stand up under the strain of the truth. It will eventually come crashing down around her. This is why we hear so many stories of WSs who crash and burn after a time... many of them ending up having full on emotional or mental breakdowns and some of them even ending up in the psych ward.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hicks

If your goal is divorce you are doing great.

If your goal is reconciliation, you have to communcate to that the door is open, and if she does a, b, c you will consider continuning the marriage.


----------



## Aunt Ava

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Her: however (daughter) won't suffer immeasurably


Your wife is either delusional or truly deep in the fog.


----------



## happyman64

Too early to communicate reconcilation Hicks.

NSTC has to kill the affair first.

Then he has to get back so he can eyeball her actions not just listen to her words.

She is an admitted liar and cheater.

His wife is thinking only about her future happiness, not their daughters or his at all.

Time is on his side.

HM


----------



## aug

She's most likely relieved that divorce is now on the table. She need not be concerned about keeping up appearances. She can now tell her potential lovers that she's getting a divorce, and they will be more willing to bed her (you wrote she's "hot").

The fact that she can revert back so quickly showed that her soul has left the marriage. The fact that she can so easily cheat on you in a young marriage with a child showed her true desire is elsewhere.

She has left. You're waiting to see if she'll return.


----------



## warlock07

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I'm not killing her career. I've talked off the record with her boss, and he's helped me out with information. That's enough contact from me with the workplace.
> 
> If telling her family and the OMW doesn't achieve the result I'm looking for then nothing will. This would mean divorce, in which case I need WW to be gainfully employed to support my daughter.
> 
> Not going there.


She will find a second one soon enough. People get fired from their jobs all the time. You know, people are fired for work place infidelity for a reason. This will also move back to Australia(unless you plan to stay in HK) and face the consequences of her actions.(getting fired/searching for new jobs)

Yeah, actually seems a bit vindictive but your call here. ust giving you a different perspective a the situation.


----------



## warlock07

however (daughter) won't suffer immeasurably because the one thing we have in common is that we both love her more than anything. We both have our different ways of being a parent and she will always benefit from having both of us in her life. There is no need for that to change in the foreseeable future. 

It would be good if we can work on a plan together and it might be useful if we do go and see a mediation person or someone to help us sort through everything. 

She will get you to do whatever she wants under guise of doing the best for your daughter or things that are convenient for her. By betraying her daughter's father and well being, you know she actually gives jacksh!t about things that actually count. I think she will continue manipulating you through your daughter.

She was happy on Skype after this because she thinks everything is back to noraml and she actually reasoned out the affair in her mind. She thinks you have come to terms with her affair and is not feeling guilt about it(See, he is moving on fine..). 

Is she out of her mind ? This is not how one treats their loved ones. Especially a partner of 6 years. What a f*cking disaster!!


----------



## dogman

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I think I fell off the 180 a little today, email-wise. If you haven't read through previous posts, we amicably agreed last night to divorce. I was a 180 star last night, but I may have come across as caring too much in the emails below. Not sure.
> 
> ------------------------------
> Her: Are you ok? I'm not.
> 
> Me: Depends on your definition of OK. I have a pulse and a plan going forward. I'll grow through this experience I'm sure. I won't let it scar me. That part's ok.
> 
> My family is blown up. You chose to have an affair rather than work on our marriage (or even have a conversation about it), and my daughter will suffer immeasurably because of that. In that respect, I'm not ok.
> 
> Her: I know I have made 2 big mistakes and I didn't think through the consequences of my actions, however (daughter) won't suffer immeasurably because the one thing we have in common is that we both love her more than anything. We both have our different ways of being a parent and she will always benefit from having both of us in her life. There is no need for that to change in the foreseeable future.
> 
> It would be good if we can work on a plan together and it might be useful if we do go and see a mediation person or someone to help us sort through everything.
> 
> Me: That sounds like a good plan.
> --------------------------
> 
> Did I fall off the plan? If so, what would have been a better response from me to the initial email for future reference?
> 
> She was quite chatty and happy during my regular Skype with my daughter an hour ago. I kept our interaction about our daughter, and had a great time talking with my daughter, but WW's demeanor was the same as before DDay, which is a total contrast to previous couple of grumpy Skypes since I emailed her family.
> 
> Not quite sure what to make of it. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, and she was just keeping things upbeat for our daughter.


You did great pal! But this whole exchange would p!ss me off.

She is getting what she wants. She wants out and for you to be ok with that. This is breaking a contract and she should feel repercussions. Don't make this easy for her. 

Her answers are rationalizing to the max. She needs to be snapped out of the fog.


----------



## lenzi

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I think I fell off the 180 a little today, email-wise.


You did fine.

The 180 really doesn't apply at this point, you've acknowledged that your marriage is over, and you're moving forward with your life and the only contact you have now with your soon to be exwife is about your daughter and divorce related matters.

That's how it needs to be. 

Just avoid getting into conversations about anything personal, keep it 'business only' about your daughter and dissolving the marriage, keep it civil because the more you can work out between the two of you the less you'll spend in attorney's fees and the quicker it will get done- however make sure she's not going to blindside you by pretending to negotiate to see what you're willing to give up and then hit you with all these legal motions. I speak from experience on that one..


----------



## dogman

I thought about what bothers me about this and here it is...

It's fine and maybe preferable to let her go but you want her to be blubbering with snot running out of her nose because she regrets her actions. You want her to not want to end it while you decide if you can stand the sight of her.

The way this is is not conducive to you feeling good and confident.

You need to continue the 180 and maybe even get your game going so she feels the pain. Oh yeah, and crush that OM with word to his wife. When he's gone your wife will be more workable.


----------



## Foghorn

lenzi said:


> Just avoid getting into conversations about anything personal, keep it 'business only' about your daughter and dissolving the marriage, keep it civil because the more you can work out between the two of you the less you'll spend in attorney's fees and the quicker it will get done- however make sure she's not going to blindside you by pretending to negotiate to see what you're willing to give up and then hit you with all these legal motions. I speak from experience on that one..


Completely agree.

She is not allowed to see into your thoughts or inner life any more, she gave that up when she exited your marriage. She is also not allowed to ask you for support, use you as a crying towel, or complain about the results of her bad decisions (this one is coming).

Complaining to you, criticizing you, asking your support, asking how you are, asking what you think about her choices... all this feedback and all that listening are privileges of marriage which she threw out the window when she cheated.

Speak only about your child and necessary arrangement for her. Be civil, but brief. Do not indulge her need for your feedback, love, or feed any drama. 

You are doing great, in my opinion. If she really cared if you were "OK with it" she wouldn't have cheated in the first place. Fark her.


----------



## tom67

I don't think she will be all happy go lucky after you tell the omw though just sayin.


----------



## Chaparral

The 180 does not mean you do not talk about your relationship. It says you do not bring it up, she has to. 

Read and reread the 180. This is an emotional time, people constantly get parts of the 180 wrong in the beginning.

Many times, the wayward sees the BS doing fine, getting their self together, find that attractive , come out of the fog, and change their mind about divorce.

Btw, if you answered he question about her drinking alcohol excessively while on her work trips , I missed it.


----------



## Gabriel

tom67 said:


> I don't think she will be all happy go lucky after you tell the omw though just sayin.


Agree with Tom here. Given how easy she seems to be taking this, my guess is she sees the OM as a possibility. Squash that possibility.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Aunt Ava said:


> Your wife is either delusional or truly deep in the fog.


Yep. My daughter wanted me to get back with my ex-fiance, so she could have a "full sister." Yeah, even well adjusted kids are affected.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Chaparral said:


> The 180 does not mean you do not talk about your relationship. It says you do not bring it up, she has to.
> 
> Read and reread the 180. This is an emotional time, people constantly get parts of the 180 wrong in the beginning.
> 
> Many times, the wayward sees the BS doing fine, getting their self together, find that attractive , come out of the fog, and change their mind about divorce.
> 
> Btw, if you answered he question about her drinking alcohol excessively while on her work trips , I missed it.


Regarding the alcohol, yes she does enjoy a glass or three. It doesn't have anything to do with her decision to cheat on any particular business trip though as I'm sure she was quite sober while planning their times away together. An email I read recalled a time when they were shopping together for my daughter's toothpaste (of all things), which means to me that this is a full blown romantic engagement between them, not 'just a sex thing'. My point here being that alcohol was incidental to this affair and not a contributing factor.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Thanks again everyone for the discussion on this. It really does help.

Not sure where I'm going to find the strength, but I just have to keep pushing through this day by day. I know it will get better for me, it's just all a bit raw at the moment.


----------



## aug

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Thanks again everyone for the discussion on this. It really does help.
> 
> *Not sure where I'm going to find the strength, but I just have to keep pushing through this day by day. I know it will get better for me*, it's just all a bit raw at the moment.



Yes it will.

Time and the determination to move on are your allies.


----------



## Chaparral

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Thanks again everyone for the discussion on this. It really does help.
> 
> Not sure where I'm going to find the strength, but I just have to keep pushing through this day by day. I know it will get better for me, it's just all a bit raw at the moment.


Have you started working out, seen an MD?


----------



## theroad

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Her: Are you ok? I'm not.
> 
> Her: I know I have made 2 big mistakes and I didn't think through the consequences of my actions, however (daughter) won't suffer immeasurably because the one thing we have in common is that we both love her more than anything. We both have our different ways of being a parent and she will always benefit from having both of us in her life. There is no need for that to change in the foreseeable future.
> 
> It would be good if we can work on a plan together and it might be useful if we do go and see a mediation person or someone to help us sort through everything.
> 
> Me: That sounds like a good plan.
> --------------------------
> 
> She was quite chatty and happy during my regular Skype with my daughter an hour ago. I kept our interaction about our daughter, and had a great time talking with my daughter, but WW's demeanor was the same as before DDay, which is a total contrast to previous couple of grumpy Skypes since I emailed her family.


This is WW setting you up for the slaughter in the divorce process.

You tell, calmly, that you will never be able to be friends with her if the marriage ends in divorce. You can not be friends with the woman that broke up the family and trying to make you a PT dad.

Make WW aware of the consequences for cheating on you.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Chaparral said:


> Have you started working out, seen an MD?


Not yet to both. Although I've added a couple of sets of pushups to my morning routine. Ill get started in the gym qhen I get home in about ten days. And see a doctor of some description.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Thanks Decorum. I'll take care of myself. I'll think about the VAR, but really all of our interactions have been quiet. I ramped up a little on DDay, but I've got good control over my emotions now. Dispassionate is what I'm delivering to WW. "Yeah that's nice, where's my daughter."

PI is working on finding OMW. OMW letter is ready to go, minus a name and address. Oh there will be further exposure.

Thank you again for your concern about my wellbeing. Yours and everyone else's help is giving me strength.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

tom67 said:


> I don't think she will be all happy go lucky after you tell the omw though just sayin.


It's in the works, mate.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Too bad if she is unhappy. I hope she is is miserable. Affairs have consequences. Let her feel them. She created this mess. Let her stew in it.


----------



## CASE_Sensitive

Good job NSTC!
I recently started doing some 30 minute body weight, no equipment workouts from Youtube. I'm just getting back into exercising, but they leave me exhausted and drained (in a good way). Give them a try and you'll find ways to expand the push up routine.

Keep doing what you're doing, stay positive, and do your best.


----------



## Nucking Futs

NeverSawThisComing said:


> *Thanks Decorum. I'll take care of myself. I'll think about the VAR, but really all of our interactions have been quiet.* I ramped up a little on DDay, but I've got good control over my emotions now. Dispassionate is what I'm delivering to WW. "Yeah that's nice, where's my daughter."
> 
> PI is working on finding OMW. OMW letter is ready to go, minus a name and address. Oh there will be further exposure.
> 
> Thank you again for your concern about my wellbeing. Yours and everyone else's help is giving me strength.


Just do it. It's cheap insurance in case things change. If you record every conversation without ever really needing to, you can just erase them and sell it on ebay when it's all over. But you'll regret it when she flips to evil mode and you're not prepared.


----------



## tom67

Nucking Futs said:


> Just do it. It's cheap insurance in case things change. If you record every conversation without ever really needing to, you can just erase them and sell it on ebay when it's all over. But you'll regret it when she flips to evil mode and you're not prepared.


When the land of unicorns comes to an end believe me she will act like a cornered rat and blame you-get a var.


----------



## BrockLanders

My take on this is that although she was honest when confronted, she still expected to be rewarded for telling the truth. You don't get praised for doing what you're supposed to do. It reminds me of this Chris Rock bit:

I Take Care Of My Kids - YouTube

The long and short of it is you were her backup and while she could control her ugly little secret while dangling you around things were okay. Now that the truth is out there's no reason to keep you around. I'd suggest canning the nanny and become the primary caretaker of your child. Speak to a lawyer asap and see what your rights are with regards to spousal support, et al. I'm sure there's a lawyer in Sydney who will do a Skype consult with you. Good luck.


----------



## dogman

This may be obvious but ill say it anyway.

My hope is that OMs wife rips him apart and he throws your wife under the bus. She realizes how great you've been and what she put you through and she begs to work it out with you.
You take your time deciding and make new ground rules and stipulations that she must adhere to or she's gone. 
You stay in the drivers seat and keep your family intact.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Thanks dogman.


----------



## Shaggy

I can't help but feel there's some more drama coming from her your way. She's being far too cooperative. Like a snipe letting you get into the middle of zone.


----------



## tom67

The Smashing Pumpkins - Bullet With Butterfly Wings (lyrics) - YouTube a song for her


----------



## livinfree

Nucking Futs said:


> Just do it. It's cheap insurance in case things change. If you record every conversation without ever really needing to, you can just erase them and sell it on ebay when it's all over. But you'll regret it when she flips to evil mode and you're not prepared.


Totally.

It's your silent witness, I have hours of my ex ranting tirades and blame shifting. I've yet to actually listen to it all but gdam it's worth more than its weight in gold and straight from the horses mouth.


----------



## davecarter

Shaggy said:


> I can't help but feel there's some more drama coming from her your way. She's being far too cooperative. Like a snipe letting you get into the middle of zone.


I've read this thread with great interest and I'm afraid I have to agree.
Look our for yourself NSTC.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

I can't yet see it getting nasty, but if it does, I'll kill her career.

We'll all be in back in Australia before you can say "Visa cancelled".

Definitely last resort though.


----------



## davecarter

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I can't yet see it getting nasty, but if it does, I'll kill her career.
> 
> We'll all be in back in Australia before you can say "Visa cancelled".
> 
> Definitely last resort though.


Did you ever find out whether the woman you 'thought' was the OMW...was actually her or not?


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

It wasn't the person I was looking for. She has a son by the same name whos about 15 years too young to be OM.


----------



## Chaparral

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I can't yet see it getting nasty, but if it does, I'll kill her career.
> 
> We'll all be in back in Australia before you can say "Visa cancelled".
> 
> Definitely last resort though.


She is over the shock of being caught. Now she sees herself free to carry on with the posom. Her whole attitude will change when you out him.. she may break down and want to reconcile. She may go ballistic with hate when he throws her under the bus. Etc. Wear your seat belt.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

I've sent a letter to hopefully the right person (OMW) by snail mail.
The PI came up with an address and phone number, however the phone number is disconnected. Hopefully they haven't moved house.


----------



## Dyokemm

Have the PI go to the address under some pretext and find out if she is there.

If they have moved, the current residents may have a forwarding address and contact information.


----------



## Iver

If they have moved there should be a change of address for mailings posted somewhere - a decent P.I. should be able to figure this out.

Another option if necessary: if you know who the OM is and where he works...well, just have the P.I. follow him home one day. (or attach a GPS to his car)


----------



## disconnected

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Yes, the mistakes she's referring to are not telling me how she felt about our relationship, and then having an affair.
> 
> EDIT: And I'll stick to the 180 even if for no one else but me.
> I have my first hike with the HK hiking group the Sunday after I get home, and really looking forward to it.


Hi there. Which Sunday do you go out with Hong Kong hiking group? Hope you have a great time.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

disconnected said:


> Hi there. Which Sunday do you go out with Hong Kong hiking group? Hope you have a great time.


A week from now - Sunday morning. Wanna come for a walk? It's a relatively easy one.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Ok it's time for another update.

I Skyped with my MIL and her partner. They are very supportive of me and very upset with their little girl's behaviour.

After our Skype, they Skyped my wife to speak with their granddaughter. My wife wouldn't even go on screen with them, as she's been avoiding talking with them since the exposure. My MIL went through a similar situation of betrayal 10 years ago after a 30 year marriage, which then ended in divorce. My MIL and her partner are very angry and distraught by the situation. It cuts so close to experiences that they have both been through.

Soon after my MIL's skype with my daughter, it was my turn to Skype my daughter. I didn't see that much of her (a bit, but not much). My wife hijacked most of the call to fill my ears with bile.

How dare I talk with her mother?
How dare I drive a stake between them?
This is between you and I.
How dare you be so manipulative?
I want a divorce now. As soon as you get back, we're filing.

I honestly don't think this situation is retrievable. I wish it was. I still love her, but she's just this bile spitting thing at the moment.

So now I'm in a catch 22.

I can wait passively and wait for STBXWW to file on me on her terms, or file myself on the basis of adultery, which would significantly favour a better outcome for me in terms of custody and alimony.

I'm the stay at home parent (with help from the nanny), and I have no income at the moment. STBXWW is making threats about kicking me out. ie "When are you coming back? where are you going to live?", "I'm going to live in my home", "Yeah we'll see how that works out for you."

The S has really hit the fan with this exposure.

Should I file as soon as I get back?


----------



## GutPunch

Yes you file on adultery and expose to posomw asap.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Gabriel

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Ok it's time for another update.
> 
> I Skyped with my MIL and her partner. They are very supportive of me and very upset with their little girl's behaviour.
> 
> After our Skype, they Skyped my wife to speak with their granddaughter. My wife wouldn't even go on screen with them, as she's been avoiding talking with them since the exposure. My MIL went through a similar situation of betrayal 10 years ago after a 30 year marriage, which then ended in divorce. My MIL and her partner are very angry and distraught by the situation. It cuts so close to experiences that they have both been through.
> 
> Soon after my MIL's skype with my daughter, it was my turn to Skype my daughter. I didn't see that much of her (a bit, but not much). My wife hijacked most of the call to fill my ears with bile.
> 
> How dare I talk with her mother?
> How dare I drive a stake between them?
> This is between you and I.
> How dare you be so manipulative?
> I want a divorce now. As soon as you get back, we're filing.
> 
> I honestly don't think this situation is retrievable. I wish it was. I still love her, but she's just this bile spitting thing at the moment.
> 
> So now I'm in a catch 22.
> 
> I can wait passively and wait for STBXWW to file on me on her terms, or file myself on the basis of adultery, which would significantly favour a better outcome for me in terms of custody and alimony.
> 
> I'm the stay at home parent (with help from the nanny), and I have no income at the moment. STBXWW is making threats about kicking me out. ie "When are you coming back? where are you going to live?", "I'm going to live in my home", "Yeah we'll see how that works out for you."
> 
> The S has really hit the fan with this exposure.
> 
> Should I file as soon as I get back?


To be honest, I've always been mixed on exposure. I feel it's necessary if the affair is hot and heavy and they need to get snapped out of it. I think in your case it was debatable whether this was the case, but you certainly didn't do anything wrong.

What it has done is show that your wife really was never remorseful, and really is only worried about her own ass. Don't let her words affect you. At this point it is VERY IMPORTANT for you to get cold. Don't break down, don't beg, don't give in here. Just stay businesslike and don't let her bring you into emotional conversations.

Go about the D process in the way that will help you the most. And be that Aussie that gets laid on a regular basis up there.


----------



## 3putt

And do NOT move out under any circumstances. She's the one that chose to leave the marriage, so she can leave the marital home.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Gabriel said:


> To be honest, I've always been mixed on exposure. I feel it's necessary if the affair is hot and heavy and they need to get snapped out of it. I think in your case it was debatable whether this was the case, but you certainly didn't do anything wrong.
> 
> What it has done is show that your wife really was never remorseful, and really is only worried about her own ass. Don't let her words affect you. At this point it is VERY IMPORTANT for you to get cold. Don't break down, don't beg, don't give in here. Just stay businesslike and don't let her bring you into emotional conversations.
> 
> Go about the D process in the way that will help you the most. And be that Aussie that gets laid on a regular basis up there.


Yeah, me too regarding exposure. I guess I will always wonder if exposure pushed our situation into something irretrievable. But all this did was screw with her ability to control and create the narrative in such a way that suited her. I think this is the case. She kind of admitted this in today's conversation. ie. "Yes I made a mistake - I should have just divorced you."

My motivation was to shock her out of the fog, but I think her mind is set now. Her rationalizations are now about how manipulative I am. I truly don't recognise her any more, and I feel that she is getting out as she has wanted - just not according to her original plan.

And yes. I'm looking forward to meeting the ladies who are going to help me get through this difficult time in my life  Take a number girls, and wait in line.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

3putt said:


> And do NOT move out under any circumstances. She's the one that chose to leave the marriage, so she can leave the marital home.


Yes I agree. The problem is though, that our luxurious apartment costs about 30% of her substantial salary. I can't see her salary providing for two apartments plus cost of living plus education expenses for our girl. Tough one, but I guess she should have thought of that before she dropped her panties.


----------



## Jasel

Not to get your hopes up but it's also possible the consequences of exposure just haven't really set in yet. I'd be curious to see what happens when exposure reaches the OMW. From what I've seen it really seems like cheating men are a hell of a lot less willing to lose their marriage/family over an affair than cheating women are. It's very possible once the OMW finds out, the POSOM will throw your wife under the bus.

Anyway when it comes to affairs you shouldn't do anything passively. You should have filed for divorce after D-Day but yes file ASAP.


----------



## jules1990

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Yeah, me too regarding exposure. I guess I will always wonder if exposure pushed our situation into something irretrievable. But then all this did was screw with her ability to control and create the narrative in such a way that suited her. I think this is the case. She kind of admitted that in our conversation. ie. "Yes I made a mistake - I should have just divorced you."
> 
> My motivation was to shock her out of the fog, but I think her mind is set now. Her rationalizations are now about how manipulative I am. I truly don't recognise her any more, and I feel that she is getting out as she has wanted - just not according to her original plan.


Exposure in reality just showed that she wanted her prized OM more than you and the relationship as a family, it shows how selfish she is, it shows her lack of feeling for her family and it actually did you a favor, unlike those I read who are stuck in limbo wondering there lives away during their potentially false reconciliation she wants out, good stuff as she only hurts you once and does not get to torment you for years with trickle truths and future hurt and humiliation.

Sorry it came round this way but you got lucky in one way I think.


----------



## disconnected

NeverSawThisComing said:


> A week from now - Sunday morning. Wanna come for a walk? It's a relatively easy one.


Thanks, but am not in Hong Kong.
Was posted there before/during and after the handover. Very interesting time to be there, and great place to live. 

Reason for asking about you going walking with Hong Kong hikers was that - with all that you have been through/going through - it seemed to be a way forward and/or a diversion from what's happening.

I hope you have a great time, and that you go out with this group regularly after that. 

cheers, and good luck


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

disconnected said:


> Thanks, but am not in Hong Kong.
> Was posted there before/during and after the handover. Very interesting time to be there, and great place to live.
> 
> Reason for asking about you going walking with Hong Kong hikers was that - with all that you have been through/going through - it seemed to be a way forward and/or a diversion from what's happening.
> 
> I hope you have a great time, and that you go out with this group regularly after that.
> 
> cheers, and good luck


Thanks mate. I'm totally looking forward to my new life and meeting new people, getting into a (very healthy) pastime that I've always enjoyed.


----------



## Chaparral

She's mad at herself. You are just handy to take it out on. The biggest problem is the long distance situation, she doesn't have to look you in the eye. She just sees you as an evil object, not a loving hurt husband. The BIG mistake was trying to do this long distance.

Right now she is planning on screwing over the omw. Do not let that happen.

Why haven't you solved this. It would/will change the whole dynamic of this mess.

Ass always failure to break up the affair by letting the other betrayed spouse help out fas backfired.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

I've not been able to locate OMW. I sent a letter on Thursday to what is hopefully her address, but I won't know for sure if I've sent to the wrong address for another few days. I have hired a PI with the last of my cash to get this address. I don't know what else I could have done. She lives in another country, so I can't just get in the car and follow him home from work.

Edit: and I'm back home in two days. I changed my flight from next Friday to Tuesday.


----------



## LostViking

Do not move out of that apartment. File for D as soon as you get back and make sure adultery is at the top of the list. You have to wait a year anyways. Maybe during that time your wife will pull her head out of her azz. Unlikely. 

Next time don't marry someone who works across the other side of the globe. As far as the exposure part, well it revealed to you the truth of who and what she is did it not? I think it was a very successful exposure. Now you know the nature of the beast and can make your plans around that knowledge.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

The illusion of the woman your wife was is breaking down slowly, isn't it ?

Does she realize that you can file a formal complaint at work and get both of them fired ? Point this out the next time she tries to attack you.

I think you shouldn't have engaged her as much though. No more arguments with her now. It will help her ustify what she did in her mind. Next time she tries to argue, disconnect the call.


----------



## Chaparral

The thing that throws a wrench in this situation is trying to take care of it long distance. 80% of the information exchanged in a conversation is visual. You have been dehumanized to an ugly object by now.

Have you lost weight? How much?

I would go completely dark on her and simply turn up Tuesday.

I would also be prepared to take the kids and go back while she works. That sounds hard until you compare it to what she is doing/has done.

No matter your goal, you have to realize you are in a war and she is not taking prisoners.


----------



## Will_Kane

Don't believe your wife when she says anything was going to be amicable.

Your wife's plan all along was to see a marriage counselor, go through the motions, then tell everyone that it didn't work out, that you grew apart and have decided to separate and divorce and, oh, by the way, there is a very nice co-worker from another office who helped me through this and, can you believe it, we now have discovered we have feelings for each other now that my marriage is over. Isn't that wonderful? Aren't you all so happy for me?

Her plan was to divorce you and never tell anyone that she cheated on you.

Her plan before you uncovered her cheating was to keep cheating as she explored the relationship with the other man.

Her plan now is to divorce you and ask the other man to leave his wife, as he has promised.

When you get back home, follow the other man to his house, get his address, get his phone number, and tell his wife.

Definitely contact a lawyer as soon as possible, even before you get home, to file for divorce. Like you said, it benefits you to file first, and it can be stopped if things change down the line.

Once other man throws your wife under the bus, your wife may come back, but this time a little more humbly, to see if she can work it out with you. This has happened many times on this forum. She is all fired up and confident now because she still is confident of her true love with other man. Once other man's wife knows, that may change - most likely it will change.

Do not mention any exposure to your wife. Just do it.

As far as the possibility of exposing her and other man at work, do not even mention it to your wife. All it will do is give her time to prepare. You can subtly raise the possibility of exposing her at work and suing her company with her during divorce negotiations if it will help your bargaining position. Save telling her about it for when it will benefit you.

Your exposure to her family just gave you a better glimpse into your wife's mindset. She would have "fake reconciled" with you for a while to avoid exposure.

Her affair and contact with other man has never ceased, it only went further underground. You will find this out soon enough after you expose to his wife.


----------



## Will_Kane

Was your wife seeing someone, even very casually, when she first met you?

Is your wife one of those women who can't ever be without a man? Breaks up with one man to go out with another? Never since her early teenage years has been without a boyfriend or a male love interest in her life?


----------



## Dyokemm

If she continues to be vicious and threatening towards you, tell her in a calm but direct manner that YOU will be divorcing her because you have decided you have no desire for a self-centered, lying cheat in your life.

Then inform her that you want this to be civil, but if she continues to threaten and revile you it will get nasty. 

Then remind her that nasty WILL involve exposing to the HR at her company about the conduct of both her and POSOM.

Tell her you want to keep this calm and simple, but you will defend yourself if she continues to threaten kicking you out to be homeless in another country.

Even through her anger, this should wake her up.

All you want now is a quick and fair D settlement to get this worthless woman out of your life.


----------



## 3putt

Dyokemm said:


> If she continues to be vicious and threatening towards you, tell her in a calm but direct manner that YOU will be divorcing her because you have decided you have no desire for a self-centered, lying cheat in your life.
> 
> Then inform her that you want this to be civil, but if she continues to threaten and revile you it will get nasty.
> 
> *Then remind her that nasty WILL involve exposing to the HR at her company about the conduct of both her and POSOM.*
> 
> Tell her you want to keep this calm and simple, but you will defend yourself if she continues to threaten kicking you out to be homeless in another country.
> 
> Even through her anger, this should wake her up.
> 
> All you want now is a quick and fair D settlement to get this worthless woman out of your life.


Not so sure about this part, partner. When you expose, you don't tip your hand to the wayward parties. If you do then the spin machine is set in motion. Shock and awe is the theme here. The offense never tells the defense what play they are about to run. They just run it.


----------



## carmen ohio

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Yeah, me too regarding exposure. *I guess I will always wonder if exposure pushed our situation into something irretrievable.* But all this did was screw with her ability to control and create the narrative in such a way that suited her. I think this is the case. She kind of admitted this in today's conversation. ie. "Yes I made a mistake - I should have just divorced you."
> 
> *My motivation was to shock her out of the fog, but I think her mind is set now.* Her rationalizations are now about how manipulative I am. I truly don't recognise her any more, and *I feel that she is getting out as she has wanted - just not according to her original plan.*
> 
> And yes. I'm looking forward to meeting the ladies who are going to help me get through this difficult time in my life  Take a number girls, and wait in line.


Dear NSTC,

Exposing a WS's affair is almost always a necessary step for reconciliation but does not guarantee it. The purpose of exposure is several fold:

- To bring the affair out into the open so that the WS feels pressure to end it;

- If the affair is ended, to ensure that as many people as possible are observing the WS's behavior to minimize the chance of him/her going back to his/her AP;

- To cause the WS to reevaluate his/her actions, thinking and feelings with the hope that he/she will become remorseful and willing to do what is necessary to reconcile with the BS;

- To protect the BS's reputation by avoiding other people drawing the wrong conclusions as to why the marriage is in trouble (i.e., blaming the BS);

- For retribution/revenge. Many people do not see this as a legitimate reason for exposure but others (IMO, the others being people who have a more realistic view of human psychological needs) think that this is a legitimate purpose of exposure, as it helps the BS feel that justice has been done (the need for the sense that life is just -- i.e., fair -- being a strong human need).

- To determine if the WS is genuinely remorseful and interested in reconciling with the BS. This, IMO, is the most important reason for exposure since the BS needs to make a decision, eventually, whether to try to reconcile with or divorce the WS.

Almost all WSs respond angrily to the BS exposing the affair. This is not hard to understand since none of us like it when our failings are publicized. Of course, this is a purely selfish reaction. What happens next is the key to the future of the marriage. If, after a short while, the WS comes to understand the reason for the BS exposing the affair and accepts the necessity for it, there is a chance that the marriage can be saved. If, on the other hand, the WS remains angry over the exposure, this is a very strong indication that the marriage cannot be saved and that divorce is the appropriate response.

Thus, you should not feel that you possibly made a mistake by exposing your WW's affair to her family. What you did was test her claims to wanting to try to fix her marriage and she appears to have failed the test.

At this point, I agree with the other posters that you should file for divorce ASAP. If I were you, I would not expect this to provoke any change in your WW's attitude other than possibly making her even more angry and spiteful. Be prepared for this. Among other things, get a VAR and keep it on you whenever you speak with your WW.

You have handled this difficult situation extremely well. Let go of the past, stay strong in the present and remain hopeful about the future.


----------



## Dyokemm

3putt, 

I see your point. And I agree. Never tell them when you are going to do it.

What I'm saying here is if he wants to get this D done in as quick and civil a manner as possible, he will probably find her far more willing and compliant if he reminds her of the POTENTIAL consequences if she keeps acting the way she has in his last couple posts.

It's a warning shot over the bow that she had better get onboard with a fair and civil split or she and her POS Loverboy have a lot more to potentially lose.

I think OP should get away from this worthless cheat ASAP, but he will need her to be cooperative to keep this fast and simple.

Personally, I would still blast them after the settlement was finalized in the courts. And THAT, I would not tell her about.


----------



## warlock07

Regrading the MIL,so your W's birth father cheated on her mother ?


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

warlock07 said:


> Regrading the MIL,so your W's birth father cheated on her mother ?


Yes he did, for two years before they divorced.

Apparently my wife's reaction at the time was to tell her mother to 'get over it.' She sided with her dad at the time, but in recent years (especially since the birth of our daughter) she has reconciled with her mother. She is angry that my exposure threatens this improved relationship she has until recently enjoyed with her mother.

I have clearly wandered into a relationship with a woman who has a dysfunctional moral compass, and I'm now reaping the rewards.


----------



## Tron

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Yes he did, for two years.
> 
> Apparently my wife's reaction at the time was to tell her mum to 'get over it.'


Wow! 

Sorry NSTC, your WW is a real winner. Truly understands the meaning of empathy. 

You had better go hard for custody.


----------



## warlock07

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Yes he did, for two years before they divorced.
> 
> Apparently my wife's reaction at the time was to tell her mother to 'get over it.' She sided with her dad at the time, but in recent years (especially since the birth of our daughter) she has reconciled with her mother. She is angry that my exposure threatens this improved relationship she has until recently enjoyed with her mother.
> 
> I have clearly wandered into a relationship with a woman who has a dysfunctional moral compass, and I'm now reaping the rewards.


You never noticed or you ignored it ?

And I might be overreaching here,but I think serial cheating is a very real possibility. Also, try to read some material on narcissism. Your W is showing plenty of traits. See if she fits the bill.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

warlock07 said:


> You never noticed or you ignored it ?


I viewed it as one of the complexities of a mother/father/daughter relationship that had little to do with me. I believed her spin. It was not something that I had ever encountered in my life until that point, so I didn't have any reference points from which to judge her take on the situation.


----------



## EleGirl

I think that your filing for divorce as soon as you get back is the only chance your marriage has of reconcilitation.

Right now your wife thinks that she holds all the power. She's the one with an income. She will just kick you out and too bad for you. Wait till reality hits her.. she cannot kick you out of your home. She will have to foot the bill until you find a job. You might end up with custody of your child due to infidelity and the fact that you have been SAHD. She's about to realize that you have significant power here.

When the 2x4 of reality hits her in the head, she might just have a breakdown and realize what she's done.


----------



## carmen ohio

EleGirl said:


> I think that your filing for divorce as soon as you get back is the only chance your marriage has of reconcilitation.
> 
> Right now your wife thinks that she holds all the power. She's the one with an income. She will just kick you out and too bad for you. Wait till reality hits her.. she cannot kick you out of your home. She will have to foot the bill until you find a job. You might end up with custody of your child due to infidelity and the fact that you have been SAHD. She's about to realize that you have significant power here.
> 
> When the 2x4 of reality hits her in the head, she might just have a breakdown and realize what she's done.


You might be right, EleGirl, but, based on everything NSTC has learned about his WW, I think he would be making a mistake to attempt reconciliation. She has a history of cheating and a dysfuntional moral compass (to use NSTC's words). My guess is that it would only be a matter of time before she cheated again.


----------



## EleGirl

carmen ohio said:


> You might be right, EleGirl, but, based on everything NSTC has learned about his WW, I think he would be making a mistake to attempt reconciliation. She has a history of cheating and a dysfuntional moral compass (to use NSTC's words). My guess is that it would only be a matter of time before she cheated again.


The thing about filing is that he will know pretty quickly if she is trying to bluff him.

I agree with all you say to a point. I know of a few cases in real life where the husbands were acting like his wife after being found out... and they were repeat cheaters. 

In each of these cases, once the wife filed for divorce, the husband freaked out. He stopped his treats. Over time they stopped the divorce and reconciled with no further cheated. One couple I know of have been happily married for about 15 years not post this incident with no repeat cheating.


----------



## tom67

Decorum said:


> I know, if only you could have talked with her, reasoned with her, taken her in you arms and shown her how much you loved her
> 
> If only you had not exposed,
> if only, if only, if only, ...it could have been saved.
> 
> Here if you can stomach it read Horizons thread...
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/72375-after-lies-their-connection-fully-revealed.html
> 
> But by the grace of God there go you!
> 
> Take care!


Or not. Seriously move ahead with d sorry.


----------



## Shaggy

At least she has stopped acting out her false remorse.


----------



## Machiavelli

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I can wait passively and wait for STBXWW to file on me on her terms, or file myself on the basis of adultery, which would significantly favour a better outcome for me in terms of custody and alimony.


Whoever takes the high ground first, controls the battlefield. He who hesitates, is lunch.


----------



## carmen ohio

EleGirl said:


> The thing about filing is that he will know pretty quickly if she is trying to bluff him.
> 
> I agree with all you say to a point. I know of a few cases in real life where the husbands were acting like his wife after being found out... and they were repeat cheaters.
> 
> In each of these cases, once the wife filed for divorce, the husband freaked out. He stopped his treats. Over time they stopped the divorce and reconciled with no further cheated. One couple I know of have been happily married for about 15 years not post this incident with no repeat cheating.


EleGirl,

Of course there are cases in which the WS, first unremorseful and even defiant, eventually sees the light and reconciles with the BS. The problem is that none of us know the future and therefore must draw conclusions based on the evidence we have. So the question is, what conclusion should NSTC draw about the likelihood of reconciling successfully with his WW?

In this case, what we have been told is that the WW has cheated on partners in the past, cheated and lied to NSTC, when she was caught showed little remorse, tried to rug sweep her affair and, when he exposed it, went ballistic.

Yes, she might eventually see the light and become a loving and faithful wife. But what are the odds of that happening?

If I were NSTC, I wouldn't bet on it. Would you?


----------



## tom67

Machiavelli said:


> Whoever takes the high ground first, controls the battlefield. He who hesitates, is lunch.


Stay the course on exposing to the omw I know you tried, try again! Read the art of war-Sun Tzu.


----------



## Shaggy

I'd be the one filing and doing it fast. That puts you in control if you ever want to halt it.


----------



## EleGirl

carmen ohio said:


> EleGirl,
> 
> Of course there are cases in which the WS, first unremorseful and even defiant, eventually sees the light and reconciles with the BS. The problem is that none of us know the future and therefore must draw conclusions based on the evidence we have. So the question is, what conclusion should NSTC draw about the likelihood of reconciling successfully with his WW?
> 
> In this case, what we have been told is that the WW has cheated on partners in the past, cheated and lied to NSTC, when she was caught showed little remorse, tried to rug sweep her affair and, when he exposed it, went ballistic.
> 
> Yes, she might eventually see the light and become a loving and faithful wife. But what are the odds of that happening?
> 
> If I were NSTC, I wouldn't bet on it. Would you?


What are the odds of it happening? Probably a higher than the 0% most here seem to think.

I brought up an alternative point of view and possibility. It's valid to do this.

You nor I can predict what will happen, can we? So preparing him with different possible ways this can go is a good idea.


----------



## Machiavelli

EleGirl said:


> What are the odds of it happening. Probably a higher than the 0% most here seem to think.
> 
> I brought up an alternative point of view and possibility. It's valid to do this.
> 
> You nor I can predict what will happen, can we? So preparing him with different possible ways this can go is a good idea.


She may well try to reconcile at some point. Plenty of women do, but more are willing to blow things up, even when they know their position is untenable and their AP is a zero. Pride and/or toxic shame combined with lots of spin from the Rationalization Hamster prevents R in most cases. And if she does go for R at some future point, OP would be risking a lot going out on a limb with her. 

You're right that he does need to consider and pre-decide what his response will be, no matter how unlikely.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Machiavelli said:


> She may well try to reconcile at some point. Plenty of women do, but more are willing to blow things up, even when they know their position is untenable and their AP is a zero. Pride and/or toxic shame combined with lots of spin from the Rationalization Hamster prevents R in most cases. And if she does go for R at some future point, OP would be risking a lot going out on a limb with her.
> 
> You're right that he does need to consider and pre-decide what his response will be, no matter how unlikely.


I'll cross that bridge if and when I come to it. I don't think I'd have to have an immediate answer for her anyway. Nothing wrong with thinking about it for a few days. If she's truly remorseful at some point, then she'll wait for an answer.

Can't see it happening though. She looked to me yesterday like she was past the point of no return.

Funny thing about filing for divorce here is that she is not able to do it herself - nor are we able to do a joint application as there needs to be a 1 year separation first. This requirement is waived for adultery.:rofl:


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Decorum said:


> NSTC,
> 
> She smacked you around a little and you are seconding guessing yourself? Really?
> 
> Her state ATM is completely normal for an unremorseful cheating spouse.
> 
> Read will Kane's quote above line by line and believe it.
> 
> You were headed for this same place NO MATTER WHAT!
> 
> "I should have just divorced you" her heart has not been with you for a long time and she has checked out of the marriage long ago.
> 
> Her problem is that she is the bread winner, her plan was to cut you lose when it suited her. From the situations I see here you are in a good position, (yes its hard to do from a distance, Chap is right), but it would have been no different if you were home.
> 
> Exposure positions you in a much better place with custody and finances.
> 
> You are an evil, manipulating, selfish, beast ...or not.
> What do you think of yourself? Are you the one who cheated? Are you the one who is unremorseful? Were you planning to blindside your wife and the mother of your child when you were in a better position and to cut them loose with as little as possible and set up your new life at their expense? YOU SOB...or not?
> 
> Or are you a loving husband (not perfect, who is) and father?
> 
> Who is the beast here?
> 
> Wake up!
> 
> Man up!
> 
> Don't believe any mores lies about yourself and stop second guessing your decisions.
> 
> She is not pretending to be hateful she is. Yes that can change, no she was not always like that, but it is a choice to be mature just as it is a choice to not cheat and she is doing neither.
> 
> You could not just go and "nice" her back into the marriage, I have never seen that work!
> 
> Peace!
> 
> I really wish you well.
> 
> Take care!


Another gem.

Thanks Decorum. I've read this post and Kane's several times already. You are right on every point of course. I've woken up as you suggested. My mind is clearer with every passing minute.

The ball is in my court and I'm going to smash it in. I have some research to do. Need a lawyer.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

And I just got a call from my wife.

She called to apologise for last night's episode. Asked me how my exams went (very well thank you), what I'm doing tonight, what time my flight gets in tomorrow, etc.

She said she shouldn't speak that way to me. I told her she's not to do it again. Especially in front of our daughter. She asked me not to speak with her mum about this and I said that MIL is an important person in my life - you've blown up my life and I'll speak with whoever I want.

She sounded quite contrite actually.

Not sure what to make of it all.

I'm wary of an attempt at false R in the future, ready to be dumped when the time is right. And to be honest, I still hope for a full R.

I think I should still file to protect myself from that possibility.


----------



## warlock07

Was she drunk ?

While there are time one should apologize, imagine what would have happened if you had apologized earlier.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

I've downloaded a divorce petition (adultery version).
It's awesome. "Adultery" in bold across the top of the form. Can you imagine getting served with this?
http://www.judiciary.gov.hk/en/crt_services/pphlt/pdf/sc391s.pdf

Imagine carrying this baggage into the celebrant at your next wedding? Consequences indeed.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

warlock07 said:


> Was she drunk ?
> 
> While there are time one should apologize, imagine what would have happened if you had apologized earlier.


No she wasn't drunk - it was 3pm so she would have been at work.

I apologise for nothing. I'm not a doormat. Yeah.


----------



## warlock07

The 180 change in her behavior is a bit concerning, though...


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

warlock07 said:


> The 180 change in her behavior is a bit concerning, though...


I agree. She was like a petulant 16 year old last night. I've never seen anything like that from her before.

Don't worry, I don't believe a word of it. I think the call served two purposes for her - to try and stop me talking with her mother (not successful), and to soften me up (also not successful). 

If she's been doing any serious investigation as to how this could play out for her, it may be dawning on her that she is not in a position of strength here. That's why I must proceed with filing. I want her to know exactly where she stands.

She can't even file for divorce.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: I never saw this coming - where to now?*



Machiavelli said:


> Whoever takes the high ground first, controls the battlefield. He who hesitates, is lunch.


Sun Tzu?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: I never saw this coming - where to now?*



warlock07 said:


> The 180 change in her behavior is a bit concerning, though...


Maybe the fog is lifting somewhat? In any case good or bad it's all words. Actions count. Watch what she does not what she says.


----------



## warlock07

Or is she strategizing ?


----------



## bfree

warlock07 said:


> Or is she strategizing ?


Could be.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

warlock07 said:


> Or is she strategizing ?


I'm ready for that. She is not.


----------



## Chaparral

You have to understand that she is on a roller coaster too. Her whole would is shattered...................and in her heart she knows she shattered it.

How were things going when you were both working before you gave up your job and moved to H ong Kong?

She can foresee you leaving and possibly taking your child and her losing everything and for what. I'm guessing she would do anything to go back in time.

Make no mention or promise nothing about the future. You must make her wonder where things are going. Give her no comfort. While you may not save the situation, she is vulnerable and you are in the drivers seat.

Why has the PI not been able to find this guys family?


----------



## Will_Kane

NeverSawThisComing said:


> And I just got a call from my wife. She called to apologise for last night's episode. She sounded quite contrite actually. Not sure what to make of it all.


This is part of what is referred to as the rollercoaster.

Most likely your wife's behavior is driven by external forces, not you, not her internal guilt, remorse, or regret - i.e., the other man.

She probably spoke with him and he didn't give her the answer she wanted - i.e., "I can't leave my wife right now, it will take some time, I can't give you an exact date ..." Hence, she is ready to patch it up with you - for the time being. 

Until tomorrow, or the day after, or next week, when, after getting the silent treatment from your wife, he calls her and says, "guess what honey babe, it looks like I will be able to leave my wife and family by the end of October, my wife just got a job, I just need to give her a few weeks and then we'll be in the clear." Then you can expect your wife to turn cold to you again.

Such are the ups and downs when the affair is found out, but has not yet ended.


----------



## Will_Kane

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I think the call served two purposes for her - to try and stop me talking with her mother (not successful), and to soften me up (also not successful).
> 
> If she's been doing any serious investigation as to how this could play out for her, *it may be dawning on her that she is not in a position of here*. That's why I must proceed with filing. I want her to know exactly where she stands.
> 
> She can't even file for divorce.


This could be part of it, but most times the type of about-face, the ups and downs, the hot and cold, are more driven by the other man's interactions with her than any logic or reasoning on financial terms. If it was just finances, I think she still would be going full guns against you.

Definitely you talking to her mother bothers her. Use that to whatever advantage you can, even if it is to make her feel that even her own family is supporting you.


----------



## Gabriel

I think you are doing extremely well. Keep a level head, both directions. Don't get too high or too low. She might be playing you, or she might not. Don't over-guess. 

Use your instincts and facts to guide you. It's worked so far.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

It's my last night here in Beijing.

Tomorrow I return to Hong Kong. It's been so emotional for me tonight. I've said farewell to a number of friends that I know I'll probably never see again. Friends that have helped me through this. I've been crying for an hour now that I'm back at my temporary home.

I'm just so sad. Where did my babe go? Where did my family go?

I'm sorry, it's just so hard to deal with this.


----------



## Machiavelli

bfree said:


> Sun Tzu?


Probably every tactician since these guys were the infantry state of the art:








Chimp patrol takes the high ground.


----------



## Gabriel

NeverSawThisComing said:


> It's my last night here in Beijing.
> 
> Tomorrow I return to Hong Kong. It's been so emotional for me tonight. I've said farewell to a number of friends that I know I'll probably never see again. Friends that have helped me through this. I've been crying for an hour now that I'm back at my temporary home.
> 
> I'm just so sad. Where did my babe go? Where did my family go?
> 
> I'm sorry, it's just so hard to deal with this.


Very sorry. Get it all out before you see her. This is exactly why so many men cave and blubber and go soft once they see their wife again after something like this. Myself included - the first time.

Before you think that might be the ticket back into your marriage, realize that if you do that, you will look weak to your wife, and she will feel even less attraction toward you. She is going to want a strong man, even now. 

Only once she sees how strong a man you are, how you are going to be strong without her and protect your daughter, will she potentially change her feelings about the D.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

I'm leaving for the airport soon, and will be home around midnight.

I will be filing as soon as I can, but still hold a little hope for R.

I have a question. How do I make it known to WW that I am open to R? 

I have agreed we should divorce (she thinks it will be a joint application for divorce - which it won't be), and I haven't referred to the possibility of R. If she thinks I just want to divorce her, she may not even think of considering the alternative.


----------



## Tron

Obviously the ideal situation would be she lets you know she wants it. This puts you in a position of strength.

If you think she is too prideful to ask then a subtle hint is all it takes. Way too early for that right now though.


----------



## GutPunch

I think she needs to come to you more than once for R. 

She must undo the damage SHE caused. 

You proceed with the Divorce even if you don't want it.

Hopefully she will come around.


----------



## kenmoore14217

R is off the table............ PERIOD !! Make that your frame of mind.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I have a question. How do I make it known to WW that I am open to R?
> 
> .


She's mad at you for everything you did to save the marriage and you want R? You should take a deep breath and carefully think about what that entails.


----------



## bfree

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I have a question. How do I make it known to WW that I am open to R?


I completely understand where you're coming from. You don't want to look back and think there might have been a chance but you never let your wife know you were open to it.

Here is what I'd recommend. File for divorce as you plan to. Let your wife know that you have done so and simply say that you don't want this but you don't see anything from her that would indicate that she truly wants to reconcile and be with you. That opens the door. Its then up to her if she steps through.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

kenmoore14217 said:


> R is off the table............ PERIOD !! Make that your frame of mind.


Considering this the most likely outcome, I think this would be the healthiest mindset right now. Thanks.

Edit: I like bfree's suggestion as well. 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I have a question. How do I make it known to WW that I am open to R?


That depends on whether you actually want to R or not. If you really want to lower your value in her eyes and confirm that she's doing the right thing by divorcing you, then letting her know you're open to R is appropriate.

If you actually want to have a chance at R, you have to show her steely resolve. You have to show that you're a strong enough man to be a worthy mate. 

Backing down or hinting at R will only show weakness.

You also can't jump at it if she brings it up. If she brings it up but she's not crying, apologizing and begging for another chance it's just a fitness test and if you jump at it you fail the test.


----------



## bfree

Decorum said:


> NSTC,
> 
> Fitness testing IS something you should learn more about.
> 
> I don't know if someone can recommend a good source that covers it well maybe a website.


Ask and ye shall receive:

Saving Marriages One Blog Post At A Time | Chateau Heartiste

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2008/12/17/common-****-tests/

Relationship Game Week: A Reader’s Journey | Chateau Heartiste


----------



## Chaparral

Get home, take it easy , let things chill awhile. See if she wants to talk. If she does , ask her how she got herself in such a mess.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

It's weird being back home. I wondered how it would be to see her again. I honestly have trouble looking at her let alone having a conversation about anything. She's done her fake I'm worried about you speech, followed by I'm so sorry. I don't know if I'll ever believe another word she says. Lets talk after dinner she says. About what? My brain is screaming "File! File! FILE!!"_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LostAndContent

NeverSawThisComing said:


> It's weird being back home. I wondered how it would be to see her again. I honestly have trouble looking at her let alone having a conversation about anything. She's done her fake I'm worried about you speech, followed by I'm so sorry. I don't know if I'll ever believe another word she says. Lets talk after dinner she says. About what? My brain is screaming "File! File! FILE!!"_Posted via Mobile Device_


We're all screaming it too. Stay strong my friend. She still doesn't think you'll go through with it. She still thinks she's in control.


----------



## happyman64

NeverSawThisComing said:


> It's weird being back home. I wondered how it would be to see her again. I honestly have trouble looking at her let alone having a conversation about anything. She's done her fake I'm worried about you speech, followed by I'm so sorry. I don't know if I'll ever believe another word she says. Lets talk after dinner she says. About what? My brain is screaming "File! File! FILE!!"_Posted via Mobile Device_


And file you should to protect yourself and your daughter.

When she gets served and is hysterical/angry/unemotional then you can calmly explain to her that while you still love her and want to remain married to her, she has left you no choice but to sever yourself from her infidelity, from her open marriage that she never sent you the invitation too.....

Then you explain that divorce takes months. If she had an affair so she could use that to end the marriage tell her to admit it, be honest so you can make appropriate plans to divorce.

If she does not want a divorce then she should tell you that as well.

But the one answer you must not accept is "I don't know" because that is just her way of sitting on the fence.

Take control. Judge her by her actions, not by her words.

You must remain cool, calm & dispassionate.

So now you are seeing your "real" wife for the first time.

Do you like what you see?

Do you love her like you did when you married her??

Patience NSTC. And go meet with an attorney.

Find the OMW and kill the Affair for good.

HM64


----------



## disconnected

NeverSawThisComing said:


> It's weird being back home. I wondered how it would be to see her again. I honestly have trouble looking at her let alone having a conversation about anything. She's done her fake I'm worried about you speech, followed by I'm so sorry. I don't know if I'll ever believe another word she says. Lets talk after dinner she says. About what? My brain is screaming "File! File! FILE!!"_Posted via Mobile Device_


Hi there. I am in the same time zone, though not in Hong Kong. Please take care. Please be very cool during the discussion. Please try to avoid her upsetting you at all. You are worth so much more than to be treated badly, especially when it is you that is trying to save the marriage for you and your daughter. 

Once the trust has gone it is extremely hard to get it back. And you will likely always have some doubt about whatever she tells you.

It is very sad for you and your daughter that your wife has gone outside of the marriage looking for "love" "affection" or whatever else she thought she was missing.

You will come through all this, but it won't be easy, and it won't be quick.

Your daughter is very fortunate to have such a great Dad. You will both come through this.

Hope you have a great time hiking with the group on Sunday.

Good luck!!

PS I am a 64 year old grandmother - and this is the first time I have gone through anything like this. It is extremely painful. But there is no way that I will let BH and OW's "close friendship" destroy me. I am still heading for 'rock bottom' ... but I am not fighting it any more ... once I get to 'rock bottom' I can then start climbing back up.


----------



## azteca1986

Decorum said:


> NSTC,
> 
> Fitness testing IS something you should learn more about.
> 
> I don't know if someone can recommend a good source that covers it well maybe a website.
> 
> I learned about it initially by reading threads on TAM.


This thread on TAM is excellent. If pushed for time read from about page 11, taking note of the posts of BigBadWolf

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18347-fitness-tests-11.html


----------



## disconnected

azteca1986 said:


> This thread on TAM is excellent. If pushed for time read from about page 11, taking note of the posts of BigBadWolf
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18347-fitness-tests-11.html


You are right. This thread and 3 others (missmollie, overthemoon88, and another one that I've been advised is now a zombie) are the ones that I have been able to relate to the most. I think because there is an offshore and/or cultural aspect that I can identify with.

But having said that, the TAM/CWI is helping me more than any counselling could. Thank you for keeping me going.


----------



## Chaparral

You can talk with her that's fine. You may get some useful information. Beware however, there is no doubt that there are more lies to come. Always slip into every conversation that action speaks louder than words.

In this country,.you can download a divorce packet or pick one up at the county court house. If you can do this and accidently leave it laying around while filling it out, it can show ww how serious this is.


----------



## Chaparral

Have you googled "how to find someone in australia"?


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

NeverSawThisComing said:


> It's weird being back home. I wondered how it would be to see her again. I honestly have trouble looking at her let alone having a conversation about anything. She's done her fake I'm worried about you speech, followed by I'm so sorry. I don't know if I'll ever believe another word she says. Lets talk after dinner she says. About what? My brain is screaming "File! File! FILE!!"_Posted via Mobile Device_


NSTC, Of course you have trouble looking at her. Tell her there is nothing to talk about except the divorce. Tell her she cheated, what is there to talk about? She is only sorry she got caught and now events are out of her control. you know what you need to do. She has shown you by her words and actions what you need to do. We know it hurts and you are painfully waiting to see if she will come around and be a big honest girl and do what she needs to do to fix this. She will not. *She would have started already if she wanted to. *. She has not. 

She has shown you her true colors. She has verbalized her contempt for you. That is who she is. Her actions have told you all you need to know. 

File ASAP. Limit conversations with her to the bare minimum. Be unflappably polite. When she says she is sorry remind yourself so was Judas. Remind her too if she keeps blabbering about being sorry. When she demands to talk tell her she should go talk to her affair partner, but to please respect the marital home and do it outside. 

File now, you are only prolonging your own misery.


----------



## Chaparral

You have only been communicating while you were apart. Take some time and read the body language. There is no real hurry.


----------



## Chaparral

Btw, you have misunderstood the male female dynamic. Get/download mmslp as soon as possible. It is not at all a sex manual.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Chaparral said:


> Btw, you have misunderstood the male female dynamic. Get/download mmslp as soon as possible. It is not at all a sex manual.


Thanks mate, yes I read that two weeks ago. Wish I'd read it two decades ago - and again every year from that point on as a refresher.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Chaparral said:


> You have only been communicating while you were apart. Take some time and read the body language. There is no real hurry.


I agree there's no real hurry. I have to get legal aid organised first before I can file. Fortunately WW is legally unable to preempt my move by filing first.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Last night was interesting.

Our discussion began once our daughter had gone to bed. It wasn't the discussion I expected. I had expected WW to begin talking about mediation, etc and next steps from here.

WW began again with how big a mistake she made by not trying to work with me to resolve the issues in our marriage, but rather having the A instead. I reminded her that it was not a mistake, but a series of calculated deceptions that ultimately drove a wrecking ball through what remained of our marriage and family.

Then she comes out with I never meant to hurt you, which was a gift as I could just continue with my wrecking ball metaphor, yada, yada...

Anyway. The bit that came next was a line I hadn't heard before.

I sit at work everyday trying to keep it together, she said. I know I deserve every bit of this. I know I could lose my job. I'm just waiting for you to escalate this, and the next thing that happens is we'll be living in a council flat in Sydney somewhere with no income. Please - I'll do anything (she repeated this a few times). I know I deserve it all, but (daughter) needs me to stay here working.

This was a full crimson faced, snot bubble display from start to end.

I then asked her where she wants to go from here and she said theres no rush to do anything right now - in relation to mediation and divorce.

I said that's fine, I've just got home and would like to get my head around the concept of D before we start trying to work out the logistics.

I'm feeling strong at the moment. Just been to the gym. Went to the doc yesterday. Sleeping pills worked great and I got about 9 hours last night and no alcohol. Also now taking an antidepressant (never taken one before), and I'm feeling clearer and more motivated than I have in years (maybe ever?).

Anyway, the fog is lifting for me. My life is still a mess, but I have a plan to move my family through this, with or without my WW.


----------



## Nucking Futs

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Last night was interesting.
> 
> Our discussion began once our daughter had gone to bed. It wasn't the discussion I expected. I had expected WW to begin talking about mediation, etc and next steps from here.
> 
> WW began again with how big a mistake she made by not trying to work with me to resolve the issues in our marriage, but rather having the A instead. I reminded her that it was not a mistake, but a series of calculated deceptions that ultimately drove a wrecking ball through what remained of our marriage and family.
> 
> Then she comes out with I never meant to hurt you, which was a gift as I could just continue with my wrecking ball metaphor, yada, yada...
> 
> Anyway. The bit that came next was a line I hadn't heard before.
> 
> I sit at work everyday trying to keep it together, she said. I know I deserve every bit of this. I know I could lose my job. I'm just waiting for you to escalate this, and the next thing that happens is we'll be living in a council flat in Sydney somewhere with no income. *Please - I'll do anything (she repeated this a few times). I know I deserve it all, but (daughter) needs me to stay here working.
> 
> This was a full crimson faced, snot bubble display from start to end.*
> 
> I then asked her where she wants to go from here and she said theres no rush to do anything right now - in relation to mediation and divorce.
> 
> I said that's fine, I've just got home and would like to get my head around the concept of D before we start trying to work out the logistics.
> 
> I'm feeling strong at the moment. Just been to the gym. Went to the doc yesterday. Sleeping pills worked great and I got about 9 hours last night and no alcohol. Also now taking an antidepressant (never taken one before), and I'm feeling clearer and more motivated than I have in years (maybe ever?).
> 
> Anyway, the fog is lifting for me. My life is still a mess, but I have a plan to move my family through this, with or without my WW.


I'm a little confused. Is she blowing snot bubbles because she wants to save her marriage or her job?


----------



## happyman64

NSTC

A little more advice for you.

Do nothing.

Exercise, sleep, spend time with the kid.

Get your head, body and spirit in a positive place.

And while doing all this expose the OM to his wife.

Show your wife that no matter what happens you will be terrific.

Watch her actions. Judge her by what she does, not what she says.

Be the man you were when she married you.

listen to her but make no promises or commitments.

See how she is acting in a month or two.

And if you do not like her actions, or she is lying or screwing around then you act.

Get the OM out of the picture......

HM


----------



## tom67

happyman64 said:


> NSTC
> 
> A little more advice for you.
> 
> Do nothing.
> 
> Exercise, sleep, spend time with the kid.
> 
> Get your head, body and spirit in a positive place.
> 
> And while doing all this expose the OM to his wife.
> 
> Show your wife that no matter what happens you will be terrific.
> 
> Watch her actions. Judge her by what she does, not what she says.
> 
> Be the man you were when she married you.
> 
> listen to her but make no promises or commitments.
> 
> See how she is acting in a month or two.
> 
> And if you do not like her actions, or she is lying or screwing around then you act.
> 
> Get the OM out of the picture......
> 
> HM


Read this 3 times:iagree::iagree:


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Nucking Futs said:


> I'm a little confused. Is she blowing snot bubbles because she wants to save her marriage or her job?


The snot bubbles where through most of the conversation. The bit where she was begging was related to the job and keeping up appearances. We're still on track for D, but she is starting to see the enormity of the mess she has made, and that she will not be able to control the fallout. That's because I'm in the drivers seat of course.

I'm sure it's possible for a WS to have full snot bubble remorse, but would still rather not R? 

I think that's where her mind is at the moment.

When she gets served, the shock will push her one way or the other I guess.


----------



## Shaggy

NeverSawThisComing said:


> The snot bubbles where through most of the conversation. The bit where she was begging was related to the job and keeping up appearances. We're still on track for D, but she is starting to see the enormity of the mess she has made, and that she will not be able to control the fallout. That's because I'm in the drivers seat of course.
> 
> I'm sure it's possible for a WS to have full snot bubble remorse, but would still rather not R?
> 
> I think that's where her mind is at the moment.
> 
> When she gets served, the shock will push her one way or the other I guess.


Translation .... Please do not treat me like an adult and hold me accountable. Please let me continue seeing OM at work. Please don't tell OMW. Please let me eat cake.


----------



## 3putt

Shaggy said:


> Translation .... Please do not treat me like an adult and hold me accountable. Please let me continue seeing OM at work. Please don't tell OMW. Please let me eat cake.


Exactly. Those weren't tears and snot bubbles for what she has done, but crocodile tears and snot bubbles for what you have the power to do.


----------



## tom67

Shaggy said:


> Translation .... Please do not treat me like an adult and hold me accountable. Please let me continue seeing OM at work. Please don't tell OMW. Please let me eat cake.


Find any way you can to locate the omw along with filing of course.


----------



## aug

She's bidding her time. 

She probably already knows she cant file first. She probably already knows you'll name her lover in your divorce petition for adultery.

Whatever she's doing now, it's obvious that it's not true remorse (which only comes after there's serious consequences). No consequences, no remorse. Thus she'll cheat again.

She's buying time to strengthen her position. She's buying time to take her future cheating underground.


----------



## alte Dame

Keep going NSTC. You're doing great.

You've got the best, heaviest hitters on your thread helping you. Stick with them. They won't steer you wrong.


----------



## Iver

It's not going to hit home for her until the OM's wife gets the news. Once that s*** hits the fan look out. 

That's when it's going to get ugly for her.

I have a strong feeling the harder you grind the OM down the better things will be for you - reconciliation or divorce will both turn more in your favor if you put the brass knuckles on for him. 

She has to know that you inflicted pain and suffering on him in order for her to respect you.

Channel your inner Walter White* here. 

*Breaking Bad


----------



## Dyokemm

I agree with Iver.

Find OMW and begin the process of totally and utterly destroying this POS who has completely f'd up you and your daughter's lives.

I wouldn't let up the pressure until THIS piece of filth was a bawling, snot blowing mess as his life lays in ruins about him.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

I read you loud and clear. I have no more money for the PI. He said the next step would be to follow the guy home from work. It's just not something I'm going to be able to do.

I have a gmail address of the POSOM and his Linkedin details. Google turns up nothing further. Nothing else. He's not on Facebook, and Australia doesn't hold a lot of public information in searchable databases. I'm sure it would be a lot easier in the US, but not Aus.

I really don't know what else I can do.


----------



## disconnected

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Last night was interesting.
> 
> Our discussion began once our daughter had gone to bed. It wasn't the discussion I expected. I had expected WW to begin talking about mediation, etc and next steps from here.
> 
> WW began again with how big a mistake she made by not trying to work with me to resolve the issues in our marriage, but rather having the A instead. I reminded her that it was not a mistake, but a series of calculated deceptions that ultimately drove a wrecking ball through what remained of our marriage and family.
> 
> Then she comes out with I never meant to hurt you, which was a gift as I could just continue with my wrecking ball metaphor, yada, yada...
> 
> Anyway. The bit that came next was a line I hadn't heard before.
> 
> I sit at work everyday trying to keep it together, she said. I know I deserve every bit of this. I know I could lose my job. I'm just waiting for you to escalate this, and the next thing that happens is we'll be living in a council flat in Sydney somewhere with no income. Please - I'll do anything (she repeated this a few times). I know I deserve it all, but (daughter) needs me to stay here working.
> 
> This was a full crimson faced, snot bubble display from start to end.
> 
> I then asked her where she wants to go from here and she said theres no rush to do anything right now - in relation to mediation and divorce.
> 
> I said that's fine, I've just got home and would like to get my head around the concept of D before we start trying to work out the logistics.
> 
> I'm feeling strong at the moment. Just been to the gym. Went to the doc yesterday. *Sleeping pills worked great and I got about 9 hours last night and no alcohol. Also now taking an antidepressant (never taken one before), *and I'm feeling clearer and more motivated than I have in years (maybe ever?).
> 
> Anyway, the fog is lifting for me. My life is still a mess, but I have a plan to move my family through this, with or without my WW.


My older son is a firefighter. Three years ago his American girlfriend committed suicide (hanging). He found her. Husband and I returned to Australia immediately. Short version : the aftermath was hell for our son. He was stood down from his work (which is normal, because sometimes in that job they have to deal with suicides, and accidents of course and so on), but he got through it. Within three months he was operational (on the trucks) again. Three years later he is engaged and will marry early 2014. He is still a very effective firefighter.

But during the three months he persevered without medication. The Fire Service arranged counselling, and therefore it would be the psychologist's decision if/when he went back on the trucks or even remained in the Fire Service. (He had never taken prescribed anti-depressants or sleeping tablets before and therefore made the decision to see if he could get through it himself. Mind you, he has no children so that makes a huge difference ... if he had had children then he may have needed medication).

What I am saying is ... IMHO ... use the prescription to HELP YOU ... please/please don't let it take you over. You are "in charge" of you ... AND, you don't need ANY alcohol AT ALL at this time ... seriously, you don't.

(I am really sorry if I am offending anyone here ... because none of this is any of my business ... but I have seen 'stuff' over the years ... I just don't want it to be any harder for you than it already is) 

Good to hear that you had a great night's sleep. Also, that you had a good session at the gym. And you have the "great outdoors" with Hong Kong hikers coming up on Sunday.

Along with everyone else on this thread, I am thinking of you, and your young daughter. It's a bit like the safety messages on aircraft ... "put the oxygen mask on yourself first, and then help the children". If you are OK, then it will automatically mean that your daughter is OK.

(Now remember, this is the short version ... wait till I write a book!! omg...


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Thanks Disconnected, and I'm sorry your son had such a tough time - he must be tougher than me. I guess we don't know how we'd react to something like that until it happens.

I'll tread carefully with the meds - it's not a high dose, but I am feeling significantly clearer, and the rollercoaster of emotions has lessened considerably. I took myself off to the doc after realising how irritable and impatient I was - even with my daughter. Of course she's going to take 20 minutes to finish breakfast. She's two.

I'll be careful - it's only temporary.


----------



## disconnected

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Thanks Disconnected, and I'm sorry your son had such a tough time - he must be tougher than me. I guess we don't know how we'd react to something like that until it happens.
> 
> I'll tread carefully with the meds - it's not a high dose, but I am feeling significantly clearer, and the rollercoaster of emotions has lessened considerably. I took myself off to the doc after realising how irritable and impatient I was - even with my daughter. Of course she's going to take 20 minutes to finish breakfast. She's two.
> 
> I'll be careful - it's only temporary.


G O O D

Like I said, none of this is any of my business.

good on you


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Decorum said:


> No one you can call in a favor with back home?


I don't know what the guy looks like. I don't know which office he works in. I'm telling you he's a ghost.

But... he's real (ie. the name is correct). He has over a hundred links on Linkedin, and the current job matches. No photo on his profile though.


----------



## dogman

I know it's a long shot but try t get the info from your wife again. Tell her if she want s to keep her job she will give you his Info. You want to talk to the guy who ruined your life.


----------



## warlock07

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Last night was interesting.
> 
> Our discussion began once our daughter had gone to bed. It wasn't the discussion I expected. I had expected WW to begin talking about mediation, etc and next steps from here.
> 
> WW began again with how big a mistake she made by not trying to work with me to resolve the issues in our marriage, but rather having the A instead. I reminded her that it was not a mistake, but a series of calculated deceptions that ultimately drove a wrecking ball through what remained of our marriage and family.
> 
> Then she comes out with I never meant to hurt you, which was a gift as I could just continue with my wrecking ball metaphor, yada, yada...
> 
> Anyway. The bit that came next was a line I hadn't heard before.
> 
> I sit at work everyday trying to keep it together, she said. I know I deserve every bit of this. I know I could lose my job. I'm just waiting for you to escalate this, and the next thing that happens is we'll be living in a council flat in Sydney somewhere with no income. Please - I'll do anything (she repeated this a few times). I know I deserve it all, but (daughter) needs me to stay here working.
> 
> This was a full crimson faced, snot bubble display from start to end.
> 
> I then asked her where she wants to go from here and she said theres no rush to do anything right now - in relation to mediation and divorce.
> 
> I said that's fine, I've just got home and would like to get my head around the concept of D before we start trying to work out the logistics.
> 
> I'm feeling strong at the moment. Just been to the gym. Went to the doc yesterday. Sleeping pills worked great and I got about 9 hours last night and no alcohol. Also now taking an antidepressant (never taken one before), and I'm feeling clearer and more motivated than I have in years (maybe ever?).
> 
> Anyway, the fog is lifting for me. My life is still a mess, but I have a plan to move my family through this, with or without my WW.


Is she that un-hireable ? And you have no job prospects either ?

Won't she ever get hired again in her life ?

Don't people lose jobs and find them again ? 

I am little concerned if she is using your daughter as a manipulation tool, so that she can keep working with the OM in HK and continue the affair ..

One way some BS handle this is to make one of them quit(change) the job at that place (preferably OM) under the threat of exposure.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: I never saw this coming - where to now?*



warlock07 said:


> Is she that un-hireable ? And you have no job prospects either ?
> 
> Won't she ever get hired again in her life ?
> 
> Don't people lose jobs and find them again ?
> 
> I am little concerned if she is using your daughter as a manipulation tool, so that she can keep working with the OM in HK and continue the affair ..
> 
> One way some BS handle this is to make one of them quit(change) the job at that place (preferably OM) under the threat of exposure.


Yeah the "let me keep my job for our daughter" thing had me confused too.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

bfree said:


> Yeah the "let me keep my job for our daughter" thing had me confused too.


Makes perfect sense if she has no wish to reconcile. We've moved to a foreign country and she's the only one with an income.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Makes perfect sense if she has no wish to reconcile. We've moved to a foreign country and she's the only one with an income.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So that is still her being selfish. She wants to stay where you all are so she is saying that it is in her daughter's best interest. In actuality it is what she wants because if you pack up and move back you will have more prospects and she would be on the defensive with no work. It tips the balance back in your favor if she loses her job and you return home.


----------



## warlock07

yeah, but it won't be as bad as she is trying to portray it to be. Maybe something is lost in translation but seems to be a over-reaction from me.


----------



## Chaparral

Give it time, all this is just speculation. You will know what she really wants before too long. I doubt she knows whether or not you would even take her back yet. It may not have crossed her mind that any man would take her back considering the circumstances. Let her simmer for awhile. Just do not turn into mr nice guy.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Ok, I'll bite. Some amateur psychoanalysis of WW.

This pretty, talented, hardworking young woman has a secret fault. An addiction to self actualization through praise from others - ie. she needs to be wanted and acknowledged - to a fault. This causes her on occasion to cheat on partners whenever she's feeling not loved enough at home.

This fault also has a useful byproduct - ambition and a desire to rise to the top - to be noticed and loved. So one day, this average sized fish in a large pond is given the opportunity to become one of the large fish in an average sized pond. She does very well in her new environment. They adore her - the CEO makes it clear that he thinks she's the best thing to happen to the region. Within a matter of months, she's on such a high. Her addiction is sated at every level. A daughter who adores her, money's pouring in, designer shoes handbags and sunglasses are suddenly affordable for the first time, cruising rarefied heights with the crowd applauding. Her family have never been prouder of her. She even has a new man on the side for those other needs. Never mind, no one will know....

And then an earthquake rumbles in, shattering the illusion. First it's just a tremor - the husband finds out. Plans are shaken and must be re-evaluated, but that's all doable. Let's tidy up around here and do some rug-sweeping. 

The tremor fades, but suddenly returns with a vengeance, knocking the woman off her feet. The family knows her now. She knows in an instant that they will never forget this moment. Now everyone knows that all those nights away from family were not about sacrifice. The crazy early mornings had nothing to do with ambition. It was just sleaze. And family-wrecking. Suddenly her addiction to self actualization through praise from others has suffered a huge blow. Daddy's little big girl is actually a bit of a **** and just wrecked two families.

Now there's only one remaining source to feed that addiction. Not many people know, but a few do. The boss knows. His EA knows. local (but not corporate) HR knows. This could all come down in an instant.

"Please - I'll do anything you want. Just don't kill this last thing I have here." 

Please don't make me go cold turkey. This is all I have now.


It has nothing to do with our daughter.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Chaparral said:


> Give it time, all this is just speculation. You will know what she really wants before too long. I doubt she knows whether or not you would even take her back yet. It may not have crossed her mind that any man would take her back considering the circumstances. Let her simmer for awhile. Just do not turn into mr nice guy.


Yep, I'm going with this advice. I'll just let her simmer for a while.

And Mr nice guy doesn't live here any more. I do.


----------



## davecarter

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Ok, I'll bite. Some amateur psychoanalysis of WW.
> 
> This pretty, talented, hardworking young woman has a secret fault. An addiction to self actualization through praise from others - ie. she needs to be wanted and acknowledged - to a fault. This causes her on occasion to cheat on partners whenever she's feeling not loved enough at home.
> 
> This fault also has a useful byproduct - ambition and a desire to rise to the top - to be noticed and loved. So one day, this average sized fish in a large pond is given the opportunity to become one of the large fish in an average sized pond. She does very well in her new environment. They adore her - the CEO makes it clear that he thinks she's the best thing to happen to the region. Within a matter of months, she's on such a high. Her addiction is sated at every level. A daughter who adores her, money's pouring in, designer shoes handbags and sunglasses are suddenly affordable for the first time, cruising rarefied heights with the crowd applauding. Her family have never been prouder of her. She even has a new man on the side for those other needs. Never mind, no one will know....
> 
> And then an earthquake rumbles in, shattering the illusion. First it's just a tremor - the husband finds out. Plans are shaken and must be re-evaluated, but that's all doable. Let's tidy up around here and do some rug-sweeping.
> 
> The tremor fades, but suddenly returns with a vengeance, knocking the woman off her feet. The family knows her now. She knows in an instant that they will never forget this moment. Now everyone knows that all those nights away from family were not about sacrifice. The crazy early mornings had nothing to do with ambition. It was just sleaze. And family-wrecking. Suddenly her addiction to self actualization through praise from others has suffered a huge blow. Daddy's little big girl is actually a bit of a **** and just wrecked two families.
> 
> Now there's only one remaining source to feed that addiction. Not many people know, but a few do. The boss knows. His EA knows. local (but not corporate) HR knows. This could all come down in an instant.
> 
> "Please - I'll do anything you want. *Just don't kill this last thing I have here." *
> Please don't make me go cold turkey. This is all I have now.
> 
> 
> It has nothing to do with our daughter.


This.


----------



## bfree

Yup, nothing to do with daughter....or you.

But here's the thing. If the last thing that is important to her gets to stand untouched what does that tell her? Especially when it was the conduit that started everything. If you want a divorce then having that trump card is going to help you get favorable terms. If you have even the slightest wish to try reconciliation then the conduit must be closed forever even if that mean you have to move.


----------



## Iver

Perhaps a dumb question but you can't charge the P.I. service to a credit card?

Would the in-laws be willing to help? If it was presented to the MIL as something you need to do to help save the marriage?


----------



## tom67

Iver said:


> Perhaps a dumb question but you can't charge the P.I. service to a credit card?
> 
> Would the in-laws be willing to help? If it was presented to the MIL as something you need to do to help save the marriage?


Good idea.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Gabriel

Well, you know your W better than the rest of us, so that analysis is probably spot on.

It's not about your daughter, but that doesn't mean she isn't ready to fix herself, and your marriage.

If you are done, you are done. And that's okay. But if there is a glimmer of possibility in you that you could R, keep being firm, don't give in, but don't be a complete **** either. You have to show her the door is ajar, a little.


----------



## warlock07

Not everyone can ask their MIL's for money..


----------



## Iver

warlock07 said:


> Not everyone can ask their MIL's for money..


Depends how angry she is with the OM her daughter was cheating with...maybe a chance to stick it to him will be well received.


----------



## turnera

dogman said:


> I know it's a long shot but try t get the info from your wife again. Tell her if she want s to keep her job she will give you his Info. You want to talk to the guy who ruined your life.


 I second this.


----------



## tom67

Iver said:


> Depends how angry she is with the OM her daughter was cheating with...maybe a chance to stick it to him will be well received.


Or he could ask the fil who is with them in HK. Tell him the only chance to save the m is to get the om out of the way I mean you know that's the only chance he has.


----------



## CASE_Sensitive

Well, if you know where the O/M office is and his photo is on linked in (hopefully), do you have a brother, an old friend, anyone that owes you a favor to help you out? If you can get the license plate of his vehicle, I'm sure there might be a TAM member here who can help you out.

My question for NSTC is in your opinion, does she think you are not going to the OMW?


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

CASE_Sensitive said:


> Well, if you know where the O/M office is and his photo is on linked in (hopefully), do you have a brother, an old friend, anyone that owes you a favor to help you out? If you can get the license plate of his vehicle, I'm sure there might be a TAM member here who can help you out.
> 
> My question for NSTC is in your opinion, does she think you are not going to the OMW?


Don't know which office he works in, and there's no photo on Linkedin. Yes I think I may be able to call in a favour.

If a TAM member has access to Australian databases (credit, motor vehicle, etc), yes I'd be eternally grateful. I have a name, a gmail address and an up to date LinkedIn profile with no photo. 

She knows I'm capable of it, but I feel she thinks they may have dodged a bullet.


----------



## tom67

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Don't know which office he works in, and there's no photo on Linkedin. Yes I think I can call in a favour.


It's a start


----------



## Dyokemm

OP,

I'm thinking that if you find a way to expedite exposing to OMW, your WW will truly crumble.

As she hears about his life collapsing, probably with him throwing her under the bus to save his own worthless a**, she will realize her last potential support going through this will be gone.

At that point she will be totally desperate to find any accommodation with you she can. 

She will be entirely on her own, and I think you are correct that she realizes even her job is hanging by a thread and you hold the scissors.

At that point, I think you will be able to demand any conditions you want for either a D or R (if you still want it).


----------



## tom67

Dyokemm said:


> OP,
> 
> I'm thinking that if you find a way to expedite exposing to OMW, your WW will truly crumble.
> 
> As she hears about his life collapsing, probably with him throwing her under the bus to save his own worthless a**, she will realize her last potential support going through this will be gone.
> 
> At that point she will be totally desperate to find any accommodation with you she can.
> 
> She will be entirely on her own, and I think you are correct that she realizes even her job is hanging by a thread and you hold the scissors.
> 
> At that point, I think you will be able to demand any conditions you want for either a D or R (if you still want it).


Yes get it done.


----------



## cpacan

I really don't see why you need to worry so much about tracking OM down - your wife will tell you who he is, right? If she has just the tinyest wish to rebuild with you, she'll tell you.

If not, it's an exit affair, and knowing all about him will be of less significance.


----------



## davecarter

cpacan said:


> I really don't see why you need to worry so much about tracking OM down - your wife will tell you who he is, right? If she has just the tinyest wish to rebuild with you, she'll tell you.
> 
> If not, it's an exit affair, and knowing all about him will be of less significance.


But this could be a double-bluff?
If she reconciles with NSTC, it also gives her breathing-space and that ever-so-small-but-significant opening of hooking up with the OM again...because no-one but them (the WW and the OM), know the identities of who had this affair.

The OMW really has to know about the affair to make sure it is all blown-up and made public.
If this happens, and NSTC's wife goes balllistic....then he has his final-proof right there: she still has feelings for the OM and never wanted reconciliation anyway.


----------



## bfree

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Don't know which office he works in, and there's no photo on Linkedin. Yes I think I may be able to call in a favour.
> 
> If a TAM member has access to Australian databases (credit, motor vehicle, etc), yes I'd be eternally grateful. I have a name, a gmail address and an up to date LinkedIn profile with no photo.
> 
> She knows I'm capable of it, but *I feel she thinks they may have dodged a bullet*.


And that feeling will cause you no end of trouble.


----------



## bfree

davecarter said:


> But this could be a double-bluff?
> If she reconciles with NSTC, it also gives her breathing-space and that ever-so-small-but-significant opening of hooking up with the OM again...because no-one but them (the WW and the OM), know the identities of who had this affair.
> 
> The OMW really has to know about the affair to make sure it is all blown-up and made public.
> If this happens, and NSTC's wife goes balllistic....then he has his final-proof right there: she still has feelings for the OM and never wanted reconciliation anyway.


I think cpacan is saying that if his wife has any ideas on R she will disclose the information on the OM if NSTC demands it. Then he can expose the affair to the OMW and truly know the affair is dead. I tend to agree with that but I'm doubting that NSTC's wife is that remorseful, at least at this moment in time.


----------



## Chaparral

Does she still go to work early? Did she figure out how you caught her?


----------



## Chaparral

You should var her car. In this country the best bet is the sony model that runs appx. $50. Also a var for the house while you are out.

If you cant find his wife you should put him on cheaterville.


----------



## cpacan

bfree said:


> I think cpacan is saying that if his wife has any ideas on R she will disclose the information on the OM if NSTC demands it. Then he can expose the affair to the OMW and truly know the affair is dead. I tend to agree with that but I'm doubting that NSTC's wife is that remorseful, at least at this moment in time.


Yes, but it would be very good way for start to call her on her intentions.


----------



## bfree

cpacan said:


> Yes, but it would be very good way for start to call her on her intentions.


True. But many successful R have taken place when the WS initially refused to disclose info about their AP. Sometimes in order to truly break through their affair fog you have to completely destroy the affair and show consequences to their AP first. Then they begin to realize that it was all fantasy and see what they are truly losing. If NSTC's wife refuses to give him info on the AP it doesn't necessarily mean that they can't R. It just means she is still desperately in self protection mode.

Of course having said that I don't believe she is ready for R now anyway. I think she still needs a huge wakeup call before she is a good candidate for R (if ever.) That is if RSTC even wants to R with her.


----------



## turnera

Look. If your WW says she wants to R but refuses to give you the guy's info, you have all the facts you need.

SHE IS LYING.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

bfree said:


> True. But many successful R have taken place when the WS initially refused to disclose info about their AP. Sometimes in order to truly break through their affair fog you have to completely destroy the affair and show consequences to their AP first. Then they begin to realize that it was all fantasy and see what they are truly losing. If NSTC's wife refuses to give him info on the AP it doesn't necessarily mean that they can't R. It just means she is still desperately in self protection mode.
> 
> Of course having said that I don't believe she is ready for R now anyway. I think she still needs a huge wakeup call before she is a good candidate for R (if ever.) That is if RSTC even wants to R with her.


This.

We have a long way to go before finalisation of divorce (yet to be filed). I'm hearing that it takes three months after getting thrown under the bus by OM for the fog to lift.

She is not ready for R. Maybe she never will be. She thinks we're going to get mediation and make a joint application. She thinks I'm going to be fine living as a peasant compared to her after supporting her in this move to HK. If she is dead set ready to screw me over like that, then there's only one move left for me.

It's all-in. I hate to use poker analogies in this sense, but it fits. If you're not ready to lose all of your chips when the stakes are high then you might as well go home. I still have a couple of big cards to play.

She has to visualise everything crashing down around her. She has to visualise herself booted from her family (divorce filed on adultery, me with full custody), her with potentially no job, and visa cancelled - or at a minimum, a hefty alimony bill. She has to see this without the comfort of OM in the background. She will see the true cost of her choices and actions. At that moment, when all seems hopeless, I can see a flash of rationality and true remorsefulness taking place. Or not.

At the moment, she's expecting the exact opposite from me. In her imagination, I'm going to back away, give everything away in mediation, leave the family home and become part time Dad.

Whether it's D or R, I think it's the same play. It's all-in.

It's just fortunate that our daughter is not old enough to be forming permanent memories about this point in time. But we've kept it mostly civil to date.


EDIT: Is it a little psychotic that I consider this course of action to be an act of love?


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

I think it's time for a musical interlude following my previous post. Time for reflection and healing.


Robbie Williams - Sexed Up - YouTube


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I think it's time for a musical interlude following my previous post. Time for reflection and healing.
> 
> 
> Robbie Williams - Sexed Up - YouTube


I might have went for the "Ride of the Valkyries", but I'm a little different.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Help!

WW asked me this morning if I want for us to work things out. Too soon! I'm nowhere near filing as I'm still applying for legal aid, etc. This stuff can't be turned around overnight.

I can't see true remorse yet, it was really just a half-hearted question. I deflected with, "I will not be strung along."

What's my next move? This is likely to come up again in the next 24 hours. Fortunately a temper tantrum from our 2 year old made conversation impossible.


----------



## Jasel

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I can't see true remorse yet, it was really just a half-hearted question. I deflected with, "I will not be strung along."


That wasn't so much a deflection as much as it was the correct answer. Because I'm pretty sure at this point in time that's all she would be doing.


----------



## 3putt

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Help!
> 
> WW asked me this morning if I want for us to work things out. Too soon! I'm nowhere near filing as I'm still applying for legal aid, etc. This stuff can't be turned around overnight.
> 
> I can't see true remorse yet, it was really just a half-hearted question. I deflected with, "I will not be strung along."
> 
> What's my next move? This is likely to come up again in the next 24 hours. Fortunately a temper tantrum from our 2 year old made conversation impossible.


Ask her, "Why in the hell would you want that? I mean, I was sh!tty enough for you to cheat on me, so why am I now good enough to work things out with? Thanks, but no thanks"

Then wait and see what she says.


----------



## EleGirl

NeverSawThisComing said:


> This.
> 
> We have a long way to go before finalisation of divorce (yet to be filed). I'm hearing that it takes three months after getting thrown under the bus by OM for the fog to lift.
> 
> She is not ready for R. Maybe she never will be. She thinks we're going to get mediation and make a joint application. She thinks I'm going to be fine living as a peasant compared to her after supporting her in this move to HK. If she is dead set ready to screw me over like that, then there's only one move left for me.
> 
> It's all-in. I hate to use poker analogies in this sense, but it fits. If you're not ready to lose all of your chips when the stakes are high then you might as well go home. I still have a couple of big cards to play.
> 
> She has to visualise everything crashing down around her. She has to visualise herself booted from her family (divorce filed on adultery, me with full custody), her with potentially no job, and visa cancelled - or at a minimum, a hefty alimony bill. She has to see this without the comfort of OM in the background. She will see the true cost of her choices and actions. At that moment, when all seems hopeless, I can see a flash of rationality and true remorsefulness taking place. Or not.
> 
> At the moment, she's expecting the exact opposite from me. In her imagination, I'm going to back away, give everything away in mediation, leave the family home and become part time Dad.
> 
> Whether it's D or R, I think it's the same play. It's all-in.
> 
> It's just fortunate that our daughter is not old enough to be forming permanent memories about this point in time. But we've kept it mostly civil to date.
> 
> 
> EDIT: Is it a little psychotic that I consider this course of action to be an act of love?


While I agree with you here, there is a problem.

If she loses her job, you are not getting any alimony or any hefty alimony out of her. Nor will you get much child support. Once her career is gone, so are those things.


----------



## EleGirl

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Help!
> 
> WW asked me this morning if I want for us to work things out. Too soon! I'm nowhere near filing as I'm still applying for legal aid, etc. This stuff can't be turned around overnight.
> 
> I can't see true remorse yet, it was really just a half-hearted question. I deflected with, "I will not be strung along."
> 
> What's my next move? This is likely to come up again in the next 24 hours. Fortunately a temper tantrum from our 2 year old made conversation impossible.


Legal aid? I'm not sure what the laws are where you are at, but here in the USA the non-earning spouse can ask the court to have their legal fees either paid by the other party or out of marital assets. 

Have you checked with an attorney on this?


----------



## tom67

EleGirl said:


> While I agree with you here, there is a problem.
> 
> If she loses her job, you are not getting any alimony or any hefty alimony out of her. Nor will you get much child support. Once her career is gone, so are those things.


:iagree:All he should do is let omw know and then asses through her actions if she is worth r or not. Let her keep her job and you move back to australia with d.


----------



## happyman64

Tell her you need time to think.....


----------



## 3putt

One thing's for damned sure though. This affair has run it's course. She wouldn't be posing this question otherwise.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Yep and a halfhearted reconciliation is worse than a divorce in my opinion. To me, that means you are plan B. Some people can deal with that other can not.


----------



## tom67

Decorum said:


> You did perfect!
> She is just trying to work out her future.
> 
> Its to early, tell her you would have to think about what that would take on your part (trust gone, betrayal, memories, can you even get past them), and what you would have to have from her.
> 
> It's to big a decision to rush.
> 
> Dont be drawn into ANY arguments!
> 
> "I am not ok with where this conversation is going"
> "I am not ok with your tone of voice"
> "I am still mourning the loss of my maggiage because of your infidelity, it still to eary"
> 
> I.e. Thr old marriage is dead, the benifit of the doubt tust is gone.
> 
> You would have to start over, establishing a new relationship upon which a marriage can be built, and unlike the first time overcome your devestating betrayal, "And I'm not sure your heart would be in it, and I'm not sure yet that even I want to."
> 
> Nothig has happened yet NSTC that changes anything.
> 
> Stay the course, and be patient.


:iagree::iagree:


----------



## Gabriel

The answer to her question is:

"Why do you ask? You seemed to be done. What's changed now?"


----------



## Machiavelli

Is she ready to get a new job? R means she has to leave or OM has to leave. 

Right now, you need to string _her_ along, until you're ready to release the hounds.


----------



## disconnected

Machiavelli said:


> Is she ready to get a new job? R means she has to leave or OM has to leave.
> 
> Right now, you need to string _her_ along, until you're ready to release the hounds.


YOU are the driver.

You are no-one's Plan B.

Steer the car in the direction YOU want to go.

GOOD LUCK.


----------



## disconnected

Hope you have a great day out with Hong Kong hikers tomorrow.

You never know ... you might be a "dream come true" for some young woman who is out hiking with the group too.

That might be the last thing you need right now ... but hey, any boost to the ego could be a good thing ... you just never know.

Good luck to you and your daughter


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

EleGirl said:


> Legal aid? I'm not sure what the laws are where you are at, but here in the USA the non-earning spouse can ask the court to have their legal fees either paid by the other party or out of marital assets.
> 
> Have you checked with an attorney on this?


Yes I have. The procedure here is firstly get means tested and approved for legal aid - then nominate a lawyer to get started on the case.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

3putt said:


> One thing's for damned sure though. This affair has run it's course. She wouldn't be posing this question otherwise.


I think this is the case. Last night I asked offhand what's the future with POSOM. Her instant reply, along with a dark look, was: "What future? There never was a future with him anyway. We're both lucky to still be employed. I can't believe you told my boss."

She had another go at me today about telling her boss. I think a conversation may have happened very recently between WW and OM. The limited exposure within the company may have spooked OM - he does have a family to provide for and he's been employed there for several years.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

So the topic of reconciliation did come up again as I expected.

She raised the idea - again half-heartedly. I asked - what do you really want? She said she doesn't know what she wants at this point.

I then told her that when she has worked out what she wants, then I'll be available to discuss it further, but not until then.

She also said that she's afraid of not being able to talk with me in the future, that I may not like her after this saga if we don't get back together.

I looked her in the eye and told her that she's dealt me the most savage blow I've ever experienced. If through hard work, we manage to work it out, then that's one thing, but if this mess that you've created causes me to lose my family, then you will never be a friend of mine.

She looked very unhappy today. Did a lot of crying. My guess is that she's realised two things in the last couple of days: support from OM has now faded significantly, and NSTC is not the doormat she was expecting him to be. The fog is clearing.


----------



## The Traveler

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I think this is the case. Last night I asked offhand what's the future with POSOM. Her instant reply, along with a dark look, was: "What future? There never was a future with him anyway. We're both lucky to still be employed. I can't believe you told my boss."
> 
> She had another go at me today about telling her boss. I think a conversation may have happened very recently between WW and OM. The limited exposure within the company may have spooked OM - he does have a family to provide for and he's been employed there for several years.


To me it appears that she is testing her safety net-- assessing her options so to speak.

I suspect that telling the OMW will push your WW over the edge and get her to truly understand the damage and pain she has caused. However you WW might take her last stand in the sanctuary of her current career. If that is the case, as it seems it might be, I would seriously consider sending formal notification to her company's HR department. I'd advise you to have an email/letter prepared just for the possibility that you might need to burn down her last hiding place.

Before you decide to follow that path though, you need to be confident that you are easily employable back in AUS. Also, this crossed my mind earlier: If you did get her fired from her current position, what makes you think that she would not be employed a few months later once the fog has lifted? Does she not have transferable skills? 

TT


----------



## Chaparral

Do you have to divorce in Hong Kong or Australia? I'm confused on this point.

Her wanting to reconcile is a good thing. It depends on her personality how to proceed. Is she as strong as she would like everyone to think. She may be totally serious but lacking in real self confidence. She may just want to string it along and continue the affair.

Find out how she wants to fix the situation.

Most people I assume, considering 80% are never caught according to studies, never intended to give up their families. It may be relaevan to know that 70-75% of people admit they would cheat if they knew they would not get caught.

What you need to do is keep the door open but not be to quick to forgive and forget.

A good mc that will not take cheating lightly and will not rugsweep is a must along with Shirley Glass' book linked to below.

Her wanting to work this out this quickly should be a good sign. She is seeing what your family has to lose.

Find the Omw.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

The Traveler said:


> To me it appears that she is testing her safety net-- assessing her options so to speak.
> 
> I suspect that telling the OMW will push your WW over the edge and get her to truly understand the damage and pain she has caused. However you WW might take her last stand in the sanctuary of her current career. If that is the case, as it seems it might be, I would seriously consider sending formal notification to her company's HR department. I'd advise you to have an email/letter prepared just for the possibility that you might need to burn down her last hiding place.
> 
> Before you decide to follow that path though, you need to be confident that you are easily employable back in AUS. Also, this crossed my mind earlier: If you did get her fired from her current position, what makes you think that she would not be employed a few months later once the fog has lifted? Does she not have transferable skills?
> 
> TT


If I have to kill her career then it's over between us. So I won't be resorting to that to snap her out of the fog. However this could be significant leverage in maintaining the upper hand in any future court battle.


----------



## aug

Has your wife provided more info on her lover? For eg, where he lives?


----------



## BobSimmons

NeverSawThisComing said:


> So the topic of reconciliation did come up again as I expected.
> 
> She raised the idea - again half-heartedly. I asked - what do you really want? She said she doesn't know what she wants at this point.
> 
> *I then told her that when she has worked out what she wants, then I'll be available to discuss it further*, but not until then.
> 
> She also said that she's afraid of not being able to talk with me in the future, that I may not like her after this saga if we don't get back together.
> 
> I looked her in the eye and told her that she's dealt me the most savage blow I've ever experienced. If through hard work, we manage to work it out, then that's one thing, but if this mess that you've created causes me to lose my family, then you will never be a friend of mine.
> 
> She looked very unhappy today. Did a lot of crying. My guess is that she's realised two things in the last couple of days: support from OM has now faded significantly, and NSTC is not the doormat she was expecting him to be. The fog is clearing.


Again this is on her terms. When will she work it out? She still puts you second, but more over you're putting yourself second. You have been plan B all along. What I'm getting at is, despite everything you've done, you're still saying to her, I'm here ready to forgive, so go ahead and do what you have to do..you don't know how she's truly feeling about the OM, it's all supposition on your part.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Chaparral said:


> Do you have to divorce in Hong Kong or Australia? I'm confused on this point.
> 
> Her wanting to reconcile is a good thing. It depends on her personality how to proceed. Is she as strong as she would like everyone to think. She may be totally serious but lacking in real self confidence. She may just want to string it along and continue the affair.
> 
> Find out how she wants to fix the situation.
> 
> Most people I assume, considering 80% are never caught according to studies, never intended to give up their families. It may be relaevan to know that 70-75% of people admit they would cheat if they knew they would not get caught.
> 
> What you need to do is keep the door open but not be to quick to forgive and forget.
> 
> A good mc that will not take cheating lightly and will not rugsweep is a must along with Shirley Glass' book linked to below.
> 
> Her wanting to work this out this quickly should be a good sign. She is seeing what your family has to lose.
> 
> Find the Omw.


I am going for divorce in HK, due to the adultery bit. Australian divorces are all considered 'irreconcilable differences'.

On your point about personality, my wife has a stubborn streak, but is also intelligent and pragmatic enough to relinquish ideas in favor of better ones. But not if I railroad it through to her. While I of course will have my 'must haves' in order to proceed with R, I think I need to be prepared to explore options with her rather than grab one method or idea and present it as 'we need to do X, Y and Z in order to R.'

I've had a read of MarriageBuilders. Sounds interesting, so I might 'suggest' to WW that this might be worth looking at. Not yet, but when the time is right. I guess I could ask around the local scene for good MC's.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

aug said:


> Has your wife provided more info on her lover? For eg, where he lives?


Not yet, I haven't asked.


----------



## Chaparral

An absolute must will be total transparency regarding passwords, email accts, not deleting emails or texts etc.

Rather letting her "decide what she wants" the question should be what can she do to fix this.

Do not forget a no contact letter, if it comes to reconciliation.

If she complains about talking to her boss again, let her know you were fighting for you family and you would/will do it again . Also , make her think you are not necessarily done with other man's a$$ either.


----------



## disconnected

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I am going for divorce in HK, due to the adultery bit. Australian divorces are all considered 'irreconcilable differences'.


Hi NSTC. Are you and WW Australian citizens? 

I hadn't realised that it might be possible to divorce in Asia as Australians, and therefore have adultery as grounds. 

I think that my WH would love to get away with his behaviour by divorcing me on grounds of 'irreconcilable differences'.

I would be much happier if the grounds for our divorce were his adultery.


----------



## The Traveler

NeverSawThisComing said:


> If I have to kill her career then it's over between us. So I won't be resorting to that to snap her out of the fog. However this could be significant leverage in maintaining the upper hand in any future court battle.


I do not understand... So her career is more important than your marriage? If she takes refuge in her career then its over whether you kill her career or not, right? You sacrificed a lot so she could follow this career dream, and she destroyed your family, yet she still gets to keep her dream career? I honestly don't get this. Why would anyone come out of the fog if they have a feeling of security there; if the fog gives them a hopeful bright future? 

Unless you truly find yourself to be unemployable with both of you having no job prospects, then I see no reason not to blow up her career if everything else has failed. If you are saying that the "line" for your efforts coming to a stop is HER career, then I think maybe you need to rethink why you even bother hoping for R since HER career is the trump in all of this.

I don't mean to sound aggressive, I'm just pretty sensitive about this stuff. It's your life and your call. I don't want you to come out regretting too much.

TT


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

disconnected said:


> Hi NSTC. Are you and WW Australian citizens?
> 
> I hadn't realised that it might be possible to divorce in Asia as Australians, and therefore have adultery as grounds.
> 
> I think that my WH would love to get away with his behaviour by divorcing me on grounds of 'irreconcilable differences'.
> 
> I would be much happier if the grounds for our divorce were his adultery.


Yes we are Australian citizens. HK law allows anyone residing in and with a substantial connection to HK (eg. a job and a lease) to get divorced there.

Good luck! (Whatever that means in this type of situation).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

TT I understand what you're saying. But I don't agree that the fog that needs to lift is related to her employer. A colleague yes, but not her employer. 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Will_Kane

NeverSawThisComing said:


> She also said that she's afraid of not being able to talk with me in the future, that I may not like her after this saga if we don't get back together.


She is ready to move on, not reconcile. How else can you interpret this? She's worried you might have an adversarial relationship after the divorce. She's trying to maneuver it so that you get divorced amicably.


----------



## Will_Kane

NeverSawThisComing said:


> So the topic of reconciliation did come up again as I expected.
> 
> She raised the idea - again half-heartedly. I asked - what do you really want? She said she doesn't know what she wants at this point.
> 
> I then told her that when she has worked out what she wants, then I'll be available to discuss it further, but not until then.


She has been with you for six years. She knows all about who you are. She doesn't need any more time to figure it out. Either she wants to save this marriage, or she does not. Here's how it works: If she doesn't say pretty emphatically that she wants to save it, then it means she does not.


----------



## Will_Kane

Why haven't you asked her to give up the other man's name yet?

It seems you are starting out down a path that will be filled with uncertainty and misery for a long time. I have seen other posters here go down this path and it always ends in divorce.

Tell your wife you want to try to reconcile, if that's what you want. Tell her that you love her. Tell her you want to improve yourself and improve your marriage, and you expect the same of her. Tell her if she can't commit to that, then it is time to move on and divorce. Tell her that if she wants to commit, here are the minimum requirements you have:

1. Complete truth, including other man's name, phone, address, email, and answer any questions you have about the affair.
2. All passwords and access to all communication devices.
3. No contact letter to other man.
4. Job search to find another job because she can't work with other man any longer.
5. Trash all gifts and mementos from other man, as well as any lingerie or outfits she wore for him on their trysts.

Add whatever else you need in here.

You both know each other very well, having been together six years and with a child and life's ups and downs. Either you both want to try to reconcile or you don't.


----------



## bfree

NeverSawThisComing said:


> TT I understand what you're saying. But I don't agree that the fog that needs to lift is related to her employer. A colleague yes, but not her employer.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do you expect that you can reconcile with her and her affair partner still working for the same company?


----------



## Chaparral

I think you are both overwhelmed at the moment. Forcing issues is premature at this moment. I do not think either of you are ready to make the decision that's going to last a lifetime. 

If there is a hurry, I can't imagine what it is.

Work on yourself and do what you have to do to find the om's wife.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Chaparral said:


> I think you are both overwhelmed at the moment. Forcing issues is premature at this moment. I do not think either of you are ready to make the decision that's going to last a lifetime.
> 
> If there is a hurry, I can't imagine what it is.
> 
> Work on yourself and do what you have to do to find the om's wife.


Absolutely. And thank you. That's exactly what I'm doing. Neither I nor my wife seem to really know what we want at the moment. The situation is a mess. I'm actually a little more upbeat about things now, because I have a plan that can involve her or not. 

My wife who was 100% divorce is not so sure now, and in the last day or so has become quite despondent. Started crying a few times today.

I don't really know what to make of it as I'm getting mixed messages. She's clearly more messed up than I am at the moment.

Anyway - time will tell. She knows I'm pro R, but definitely on my terms. I'll keep that door ajar as you said in a previous post.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

bfree said:


> Do you expect that you can reconcile with her and her affair partner still working for the same company?


As long as I get in touch with OMW, as the A can only happen on work trips as they live in different countries. However I honestly feel that my wife is starting to view the whole thing as a stupid mistake.


----------



## Chaparral

Let her know, at the right time, that you will be do great come what may, that you consider yourself a catch, a good father, and that you do not lie, steal or..................cheat, and women love that in a man.


----------



## Chaparral

NeverSawThisComing said:


> As long as I get in touch with OMW, as the A can only happen on work trips as they live in different countries. However I honestly feel that my wife is starting to view the whole thing as a stupid mistake.


You have to stick a stake in the monster to be sure its done. With the OMW, you have a guard at both ends and an ally. It also puts the pressure on the OM to save his family. Right now, he thinks only your foolish wife is under the bus. Also, you can't be sure who/how many, she is sobbing for?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: I never saw this coming - where to now?*



NeverSawThisComing said:


> As long as I get in touch with OMW, as the A can only happen on work trips as they live in different countries. However I honestly feel that my wife is starting to view the whole thing as a stupid mistake.


Telling the OMW is imperative so you're right to see that as the first step. But you also need to have a way to verify what goes on during these work trips. Is it possible that these work trips can be eliminated our you can accompany her?


----------



## happyman64

Nstc
You are doing great. 

Again, keep showing her consequences and how life will be without you. 

Time is on your side and yes you do have leverage. 

Hm
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

NSTC, may I suggest as a matter of reconciliation that your wife herself expose the affair to her affair partners wife? From her paycheck she can pay for the P.I.? Other than a conference call not sure how this would work logistically. I know just demanding that she do this will tell you instantly where her loyalties reside.


----------



## Machiavelli

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Anyway - time will tell. She knows I'm pro R, but definitely on my terms. I'll keep that door ajar as you said in a previous post.


Then lay out your terms. She has to hand up OM's head on a silver platter as part of that, although I don't recommend you phrase it that way.


----------



## warlock07

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Absolutely. And thank you. That's exactly what I'm doing. Neither I nor my wife seem to really know what we want at the moment. The situation is a mess. I'm actually a little more upbeat about things now, because I have a plan that can involve her or not.
> 
> My wife who was 100% divorce is not so sure now, and in the last day or so has become quite despondent. Started crying a few times today.
> 
> I don't really know what to make of it as I'm getting mixed messages. She's clearly more messed up than I am at the moment.
> 
> Anyway - time will tell. She knows I'm pro R, but definitely on my terms. I'll keep that door ajar as you said in a previous post.


How how much pro R would you be if you learn that it only happened(her remorse) once the OM dropped her after you talked to her manager and put their jobs in the line ?

Would you be happy with that, if at all ?

Some call it coming out of fog. Would that be enough for you?


----------



## warlock07

Do you think she is still talking to her OM ? How would you know ?


----------



## warlock07

NeverSawThisComing said:


> As long as I get in touch with OMW, as the A can only happen on work trips as they live in different countries. However I honestly feel that my wife is starting to view the whole thing as a stupid mistake.


Do you ?


----------



## Shaggy

Have you googled for a picture of the OM?

Borrow if you have to but, you absolutely need to find the OmW and expose ASAP, if the OM is spooked etc, finding your wife too costly to be with, contacting his wife will totally freak him out.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Shaggy said:


> Have you googled for a picture of the OM?
> 
> Borrow if you have to but, you absolutely need to find the OmW and expose ASAP, if the OM is spooked etc, finding your wife too costly to be with, contacting his wife will totally freak him out.


I've tried googling his picture. Unfortunately he has the same name as a relatively well known singer. Millions of hits - even if I add his company name.

Yes, I talk to the PI tomorrow about the next step.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

warlock07 said:


> Do you think she is still talking to her OM ? How would you know ?


Truth is of course, I have no way to know.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

I had a great day out hiking today. For those who know HK, we started in Admiralty, went up the peak and finished down on the beach on the south side of the island.

Far more girls than guys, and I made sure I spent some time walking and chatting with all the pretty ones to work on my confidence after what's happened. As it turned out I had nothing to worry about. I quite enjoyed flirting with about four of them. They've all messaged me since I got back, so I can't have been too bad to talk with.

Today was a good day for my confidence. I know I'll be fine (totally fine) if we proceed with D. Kind of looking forward to it actually. Provided I do well out of the D, all I lose is a skanky cheating home wrecker. But that's what I'm saying today. There are plenty more moves to be made in this particular game.


----------



## Chaparral

Get a var and leave it in your house whenever you are out. There is a sony model that costs about 50 US $ that works great with lithium batteries. You need intel.

How do you get around there, do uou have a car? 

Does she still go to work early?


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Yes, she still leaves early for work. We don't have a car here - no need for one. I'll be looking for a VAR tomorrow.


----------



## Chaparral

You said she leaves early to talk to om. Brickstone has pen vars that can be slipped into a purse.


----------



## Chaparral

The thing about a var is you can find out things even if the convos not with om.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

That's a great idea. I had assumed that they're just chatting on the company network, but I guess they could easily be talking via a company voip link.


----------



## Chaparral

If you find anything, protect your sources at all costs. Local laws may be punitive.

Any spy stores in Hong Kong? How are prices there?


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Already located one. It's in a building full of little electronics businesses vying for attention from customers. I'm sure I'll find a good deal. I'll let you know how I go.


----------



## Chaparral

Maybe you will see James Bond there.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

I'm sure he'll see me first


----------



## Shaggy

When googling for people with names similar to famous people, you can remove results by putting a minus sign infront of terms. For instance -music -concert -appearance to remove things that include those terms.


----------



## jupiter13

Even with 'irreconcilable differences' in my state I can file what is called tort for "Intentional infliction of emotional distress"or "Negligent infliction of emotional distress." This can be filed against the OW as well. However when filing for the D filing this at the same time makes the court aware of the problem and can increase and support any or all your demands and requests. It's a tactic used now and again. Something I would do just to make a point that it was unacceptable.


----------



## cpacan

Demand that your wife tells you OM name and adress.


----------



## Chaparral

cpacan said:


> Demand that your wife tells you OM name and adress.


I think this has the potential of having his wife warn the posom and giving him time to gaslight his wife. I would do this as a last resort possibly.


----------



## cpacan

Chaparral said:


> I think this has the potential of having his wife warn the posom and giving him time to gaslight his wife. I would do this as a last resort possibly.


I may be over-simplyfying this, but if warnings and gaslighting is an issue, they are in place already.

I see it as a very quickly way to determine her R-willingness. "Tell me OM name, adress, phone number and what else you can come up with - FB-profile, Google+ etc". If she doesn't, I wouldn't even consider rebuilding with her.

If she does come up with it, call OMW emmediatly, if not possible, message, e-mail, letter... and then monitor wifeys use of communication intensely.


----------



## disconnected

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I had a great day out hiking today. For those who know HK, we started in Admiralty, went up the peak and finished down on the beach on the south side of the island.
> 
> Far more girls than guys, and I made sure I spent some time walking and chatting with all the pretty ones to work on my confidence after what's happened. As it turned out I had nothing to worry about. I quite enjoyed flirting with about four of them. They've all messaged me since I got back, so I can't have been too bad to talk with.
> 
> Today was a good day for my confidence. I know I'll be fine (totally fine) if we proceed with D. Kind of looking forward to it actually. Provided I do well out of the D, all I lose is a skanky cheating home wrecker. But that's what I'm saying today. There are plenty more moves to be made in this particular game.


F O U R !! ? ?

It is win/win for you now. YOU have the choice of R ... if YOU want to. 

And if you choose you don't want to reconcile, then there is a new and happy life waiting for you.

I'm so pleased to hear about this.

BTW my WH turned up at home last night - house sitting was only for a month apparently. I don't know / I don't care. I am staying on-side while waiting to hear about the job.

No idea what is happening with OW ... I don't know and I don't care. They deserve each other.

Anyway, back to business ... are you going hiking again next weekend?


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Sitting in the dingy Legal Aid office in Mongkok. That's what my posWW has reduced me to. Awesome.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## davecarter

cpacan said:


> I may be over-simplyfying this, but if warnings and gaslighting is an issue, they are in place already.
> I see it as a very quickly way to determine her R-willingness. "Tell me OM name, adress, phone number and what else you can come up with - FB-profile, Google+ etc". If she doesn't, I wouldn't even consider rebuilding with her.
> If she does come up with it, call OMW emmediatly, if not possible, message, e-mail, letter... and then monitor wifeys use of communication intensely.


It sounds very dubious that she hasn't already.
The longer this stone-walling goes on, the less and less I would a) trust this woman and b) have any chance of a 'R'.

And in answer to someone else's post earlier, I'd put money on the fact NSTC's wife is still in contact with OM:


NeverSawThisComing said:


> "Last night I asked offhand what's the future with POSOM. Her instant reply, along with a dark look, was: "What future? There never was a future with him anyway. We're both lucky to still be employed. I can't believe you told my boss."
> She had another go at me today about telling her boss. I think a conversation may have happened very recently between WW and OM. The limited exposure within the company may have spooked OM - he does have a family to provide for and he's been employed there for several years."


Yeah, the _cojones _of this woman....what an attitude.
She's obviously protecting OM and she's probably still carrying a 'torch' for him...


----------



## EleGirl

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Sitting in the dingy Legal Aid office in Mongkok. That's what my posWW has reduced me to. Awesome.


Be careful because legal aid will often only do the very basic for divorce. It's probably the same anywhere a person is getting services paid for my someone else.

Have a contingency plan to get a shark lawyer.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Legal aid is going to take months to get approved. I'll probably be earning by then, so that may have been a waste of time. I can nominate the lawyer of my choice on legal aid here though.

I'll check on the feasibility of filing forms and then fleshing the case out with a lawyer when resources become available.


----------



## EleGirl

Have you talked to any attorneys about asking the court to the legal fees be paid out of marital assets or have her pay them? 

What are the laws there about income and assets during marriage? Is it community property? Or some other structure?


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

disconnected said:


> F O U R !! ? ?
> 
> It is win/win for you now. YOU have the choice of R ... if YOU want to.
> 
> And if you choose you don't want to reconcile, then there is a new and happy life waiting for you.
> 
> I'm so pleased to hear about this.
> 
> BTW my WH turned up at home last night - house sitting was only for a month apparently. I don't know / I don't care. I am staying on-side while waiting to hear about the job.
> 
> No idea what is happening with OW ... I don't know and I don't care. They deserve each other.
> 
> Anyway, back to business ... are you going hiking again next weekend?


Yes, I do see it as a win-win. And it's HK, so I'll be living like I'm 30 again, but 10 years wiser this time round.

I've already booked my hikes for the next two weeks. Had a great time yesterday. I felt... normal, and happy. It's been a few weeks since I felt that way.


----------



## weightlifter

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Yes, I do see it as a win-win. And it's HK, so I'll be living like I'm 30 again, but 10 years wiser this time round.
> 
> I've already booked my hikes for the next two weeks. Had a great time yesterday. I felt... normal, and happy. It's been a few weeks since I felt that way.


Perhaps you have reached the bottom and are now climbing your way out. We can hope for you sir!


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

weightlifter said:


> Perhaps you have reached the bottom and are now climbing your way out. We can hope for you sir!


Thanks mate. I think you're right. I'm feeling this way a lot earlier than I expected to, to be honest. I think that as each day goes by, I'm grieving less. Perhaps I'm realising that I have less and less to grieve about. I'm beginning to realise that this woman that I had put up on a pedestal was substantially less than what my mind had built her up to be.

I couldn't even look in her direction tonight. She just revulsed me.


----------



## carmen ohio

NeverSawThisComing said:


> *Legal aid is going to take months to get approved. I'll probably be earning by then, so that may have been a waste of time.* I can nominate the lawyer of my choice on legal aid here though.
> 
> I'll check on the feasibility of filing forms and then fleshing the case out with a lawyer when resources become available.


Dear NSTC,

I don't understand why money is a problem for you. Your WW makes a good income. You are here H. Therefore, you are entitled to share in her income. In the U.S., one spouse cannot withhold money from the other in order to prevent the other from seeking legal assistance. Maybe the laws are different in HK, but I suggest you look into this. The simplest way, I presume, would be to call a marital lawyer and ask.

Agree with the other posters that you are handling this difficult situation extremely well. Keep it up.


----------



## LostViking

Every day as you disconnect from her you will begin to look at her objectively and see her for the pathetic creature she is. That revulsion will eventually morph into apathy. Soon you just won't give a sh!t.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WyshIknew

carmen ohio said:


> Dear NSTC,
> 
> I don't understand why money is a problem for you. Your WW makes a good income. You are here H. Therefore, you are entitled to share in her income. In the U.S., one spouse cannot withhold money from the other in order to prevent the other from seeking legal assistance. Maybe the laws are different in HK, but I suggest you look into this. The simplest way, I presume, would be to call a marital lawyer and ask.
> 
> Agree with the other posters that you are handling this difficult situation extremely well. Keep it up.


:iagree:

Exactly my thoughts!

Besides she has no doubt spent family time and money on the affair so it is only fair you get to spend family time and money on the divorce process.

Because believe you me, with her spending capabilities she will hire a damn good shark lawyer who would have the potential to chew your freebie lawyer up and spit out the bits.

I don't know how the lawyers work where you are staying but in general they have a conflict of interest when they have already been consulted on a case so it may be worth your while to do a consult with a few of the recommended divorce lawyers.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

You guys are making a lot of sense.

This morning I've sent an email to a very prominent HK family lawyer. I'll see what happens from that.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Just received an email from WW listing her upcoming travel. Four weeks away over the next two months. There is no future with her. It would drive me nuts - I know I can never trust her again.

At least all this travel should make the custody battle a cakewalk.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

At least she'll be out of the house.
My reply to her was "have fun."

I'm done playing this game.


----------



## warlock07

Is this out of character or do you think love blinded you all this time ?



> Just received an email from WW listing her upcoming travel. Four weeks away over the next two months.


Was this meant to gauge your intention to expose her at work?


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

No, there's nothing out of character here. I think she was actually just giving me a heads up as to when she would be away. There may be an implied "and I don't care if you don't like it" in her email, but that's ok, because I'm beyond caring anyway. This is good news for me, although it may be tough while she's actually away, as I won't know if OM is there and of course I still have feelings for her. 

But bottom line in practical terms, is that this means more 1 on 1 time with my daughter, and this bolsters my custody case, and damages hers.


----------



## davecarter

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Just received an email from WW listing her upcoming travel. Four weeks away over the next two months. There is no future with her. It would drive me nuts - I know I can never trust her again.


NSTC - is this something, within work-parameters that she cannot avoid though? 
Sorry if Im being ignorant. :scratchhead:


----------



## Chaparral

Can you and your daughter visit Australia while she's gone?


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

davecarter said:


> NSTC - is this something, within work-parameters that she cannot avoid though?
> Sorry if Im being ignorant. :scratchhead:


No, that's a fair question.

Absolutely - her work requires travel. It's just that if I can't trust her (and I can't), then there is no future with her. I haven't seen the remorse I've been waiting for and I doubt that I will.

I guess my comments in the posts that you're referring to are more about me realising what it feels like to know that she's about to start travelling again soon. Of course I knew it was inevitable, but it's quite a different thing to be sent specific dates and destinations.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Chaparral said:


> Can you and your daughter visit Australia while she's gone?


Potentially. We are domiciled in HK though, so it's not something that I would risk without full disclosure to and the full acquiescence of my wife.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

I've received a significant amount of specific advice regarding filing without the help of a lawyer. Apparently this should not be a problem, as the initial filing is quite simple - it's the later stages that get a bit lawyer-ey, and amendments can be made along the way if necessary.

So, I file in the next several days. Things are about to start heating up around here.

Only problem though is that she may cancel all of her travel in response to this to minimise impact to her case for custody. Another glitch is that I have just come back (for a week now) from a month away from the family which doesn't help me - although this is the only time I've ever been away from them since my daughter was born.

I'd be happy to wait another two months, but I have learned that my wife could actually file against me tomorrow if she wanted to, citing 'unacceptable behaviours' - which could be anything from snoring to not having a job.


----------



## LongWalk

Are you still committed to learning Mandarin and living in the same city as your wife? You have not revealed whether you are in Singapore, Hong Kong or China, but local family law will create a curious situation, unless you agree to divorce in your homeland.

If you 180 hard, you can build a new life. If you are independent, you will fare better. Perhaps over time your wife will see things differently.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

LongWalk, I'm in Hong Kong. I like it here, so I'm staying, as is my wife. I would also like my daughter to have mum and dad close by regardless of who gets custody. Fortunately in HK, the law is still largely based on British law, so I'm happy to proceed with the divorce here. In fact it's preferable here as I can cite adultery as the reason, which is worth extra bonus points from what I've heard and read.

I am 180ing hard, and my intention is to build a new life, independently as you say. For the sake of my family, I would still like my wife to see things differently, but I'm not convinced that it would be worth my effort rehabilitating this marriage. I guess time will tell, so I've got to keep an open mind.


----------



## Nucking Futs

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Potentially. *We are domiciled in HK* though, so it's not something that I would risk without full disclosure to and the full acquiescence of my wife.





LongWalk said:


> Are you still committed to learning Mandarin and living in the same city as your wife? *You have not revealed whether you are in Singapore, Hong Kong or China,* but local family law will create a curious situation, unless you agree to divorce in your homeland.
> 
> If you 180 hard, you can build a new life. If you are independent, you will fare better. Perhaps over time your wife will see things differently.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


:scratchhead:


----------



## davecarter

NeverSawThisComing said:


> No, there's nothing out of character here. I think she was actually just giving me a heads up as to when she would be away. There may be an implied "and I don't care if you don't like it" in her email, but that's ok, because I'm beyond caring anyway. This is good news for me, although it may be tough while she's actually away, as I won't know if OM is there and of course I still have feelings for her.
> 
> But bottom line in practical terms, is that this means more 1 on 1 time with my daughter, and this bolsters my custody case, and damages hers.


Can I ask...will you/can you be doing anything to find out if OM is going to be there?
That would pretty much be 'End Game' (if things arent already)


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Yes I think that would be end game right there. Other than asking her, I don't think there's much I could do to find out.

She'll be served with a copy of the divorce petition by then, so I think I'll have an idea of where our relationship stands by then. Hopefully.


----------



## happyman64

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Yes I think that would be end game right there. Other than asking her, I don't think there's much I could do to find out.
> 
> *She'll be served with a copy of the divorce petition by then, so I think I'll have an idea of where our relationship stands by then. Hopefully*.


You will know where the relationship stands by then.

DO not listen to what comes out of her mouth.

Judge her by her actions.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

What sort of actions are we talking about here? I've read that kind of comment before, but not really sure what you mean.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

NeverSawThisComing said:


> What sort of actions are we talking about here? I've read that kind of comment before, but not really sure what you mean.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actions =

Offering to quit her job

Canceling her trip

Turning over all cell phone and computer access to you

Handing over all her passwords

Voluntarily "outing" herself to friends and any family that haven't already been told

Calling the OMW and apologizing for having an affair with her husband

Writing a NC letter, showing it to you for approval and sending it out asap

Setting up IC for herself and MC for the two of you

Offering to sign a post nup

etc


----------



## warlock07

Or having dignity in dealing and making things easy for the BS when proceeding towards separation/divorce...


----------



## bfree

warlock07 said:


> Or having dignity in dealing and making things easy for the BS when proceeding towards separation/divorce...


now THAT'S a fantasy!


----------



## Chaparral

I think you should ask her boss if the other man will be there. If he says yes, I would tell him that makes divorce a certainty.


----------



## CASE_Sensitive

Chaparral said:


> I think you should ask her boss if the other man will be there. If he says yes, I would tell him that makes divorce a certainty.


Her boss is only going to take so many calls before they insist either handle this privately or someone has got to go.


----------



## BK23

CASE_Sensitive said:


> Her boss is only going to take so many calls before they insist either handle this privately or someone has got to go.


Is this necessarily a bad thing?


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

BK23 said:


> Is this necessarily a bad thing?


Yes it would be a bad thing if my wife lost her job. I'm looking forward to making it here on my own in HK, but if our visas are cancelled due to my wife getting fired, then we're on the next plane to Australia. I'm reasonably certain that this is headed for divorce, regardless of where we live. I'd like to make a go of it here, at least for several years.


----------



## Chaparral

This is eerily similar to shamwow's thread. After the divorce sham's wife went to hell.


----------



## LostViking

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Yes it would be a bad thing if my wife lost her job. I'm looking forward to making it here on my own in HK, but if our visas are cancelled due to my wife getting fired, then we're on the next plane to Australia. I'm reasonably certain that this is headed for divorce, regardless of where we live. I'd like to make a go of it here, at least for several years.


Do what you need to do to get the best possible outcome. If that means not exposing and getting her fired, then don't expose. 

If she and the OM keep it up the upper management will eventually find out and then her a$$ is grass.


----------



## LongWalk

Well, one way to accelerate past her is to learn Mandarin faster than her. By the way, Cantonese is so different from Mandarin that you can even learn some at the same time place your emphasis on Mandarin but memorize some Cantonese phrases for ordering food.

Pretty fun to do.


----------



## EleGirl

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I've received a significant amount of specific advice regarding filing without the help of a lawyer. Apparently this should not be a problem, as the initial filing is quite simple - it's the later stages that get a bit lawyer-ey, and amendments can be made along the way if necessary.
> 
> So, I file in the next several days. Things are about to start heating up around here.
> 
> Only problem though is that she may cancel all of her travel in response to this to minimise impact to her case for custody. Another glitch is that I have just come back (for a week now) from a month away from the family which doesn't help me - although this is the only time I've ever been away from them since my daughter was born.
> 
> I'd be happy to wait another two months, but I have learned that my wife could actually file against me tomorrow if she wanted to, citing 'unacceptable behaviours' - which could be anything from snoring to not having a job.


There are concerns in your case that it might be wise to have a lawyer for from the start. They are similar to the ones I had when I divorced my son's father.

As a doctor he worked long hours (add to that the hours he told me he was working and with one or another affair partner).

I was concerned because, while he is a doctor with a good practice in the USA, I know from my snooping that he was considering just taking off with our son to Italy where we have family. 

And I, like were, was not employed at the time I filed for divorce.

I had my attorney file some things with the initial filing to cover these things.

1) Interim custody and time share schedule. 
2) Order that neither of us could go out of state with our son without written permission from the other.
3) Interim spousal support and child support starting immediately. This is the support you get until the divorce is final.

My then husband was not pleased with this, but, since I filed first and what I filed was reasonable I got it. He then had to fight it. He did fight it. But I made sure that everything was reasonable to the was not able to change anything.


----------



## EleGirl

NeverSawThisComing,

Another thing.... very often, when divorce papers are filed against the primary bread winner of a family it seems to make all financial records, personal papers, legal papers, etc disappear. It's just like magic.

Once they disappear, you will have to subpoena everything. Generally the only things you will get is what you ask for and can proves exists. As a side line, I’ve done forensic accounting for divorces. I’ve seen this happen a lot. It happened in my divorce as well.

So, before she is served, get a copy of every piece of financial paperwork you can find and store it in a safe place. I rented a 5x5 storage space for this. Also get copies of all personal papers, legal papers, deed, mortgages, loan papers, etc etc. Photo copy all credit cards, front and back. You don’t know right now what you might need.

Since she has been cheating and seems to have some anger and contempt, I would not be surprised if she has some secret accounts, etc. As a sideline I've done forensic accounting for divorces. There is no shortage to what people will do financially to get away with infidelity and start moving themselves away from their spouse.


----------



## Will_Kane

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Only problem though is that she may cancel all of her travel in response to this to minimise impact to her case for custody.


So she could cancel the travel if she wanted to. Given the state of her marriage, if she was interested in reconciling, she would cancel.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Will_Kane said:


> So she could cancel the travel if she wanted to. Given the state of her marriage, if she was interested in reconciling, she would cancel.


Totally. 

It will be interesting to see how the travel aspect plays out. Her effectiveness would be significantly reduced if she were to simply can all travel. If she feels that her job is in jeopardy by not travelling, she'll choose the job. I'm almost 100% certain about that. There would be too much shame in returning back home with her life in a (self caused) shambles and dream job lost.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Totally.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how the travel aspect plays out. Her effectiveness would be significantly reduced if she were to simply can all travel. If she feels that her job is in jeopardy by not travelling, she'll choose the job. I'm almost 100% certain about that. There would be too much shame in returning back home with her life in a (self caused) shambles and dream job lost.


To be honest, right now she believes you want a divorce. Believing that she'd be a fool to jeopardize her job for a situation that is heading towards divorce.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

EleGirl said:


> To be honest, right now she believes you want a divorce. Believing that she'd be a fool to jeopardize her job for a situation that is heading towards divorce.


She knows that I'd prefer a real reconciliation. But I told her I'm not interested in having that conversation unless she is absolutely sure that is what she wants. I don't think we're going to reconcile, so no, she won't jeopardize her job for something she's probably already written off.

What she may jeopardize her job for is the custody of our daughter. The first thing a lawyer is going to tell her is "stop travelling, maximise the amount of time you spend with your daughter". I'm just not sure what she will do with that advice though.


----------



## WyshIknew

NeverSawThisComing said:


> She knows that I'd prefer a real reconciliation. But I told her I'm not interested in having that conversation unless she is absolutely sure that is what she wants. I don't think we're going to reconcile, so no, she won't jeopardize her job for something she's probably already written off.
> 
> What she may jeopardize her job for is the custody of our daughter. The first thing a lawyer is going to tell her is "stop travelling, maximise the amount of time you spend with your daughter". I'm just not sure what she will do with that advice though.


Surely any judge with common sense (yeah I know, one hell of an oxymoron.) would realise that this sudden cessation of travel was merely a front to fool the court into granting her more custody.

And I would hope that your shark lawyer would go to great lengths to point this out to the judge.

As you would obviously have got in first and limited her choices by having consults with some of the other top family lawyers and kept the best one for yourself.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

I had a bit of a setback today.

I went to the Family Law offices, and found that I they won't allow me to file on the Adultery petition without help of a lawyer. Apparently the proof requirements get a bit messy for the unwary.

That leaves me with finding a lawyer who'll do this without payment, waiting for legal aid to be approved (could be four months), or file under unacceptable behaviour. Which I'd mostly have to make up, because I thought she was a saint before I found out she's a slvt.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

After being angry for so long, I just had a wave of "I don't want to be angry any more" come over me.

Maybe it's time to negotiate for the best outcome for me.

It's just been so exhausting and consuming. I need to be finding a job and spending my time productively. The fun stuff and the next chapter of my life is only going to start once I've moved past this sordid mess.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

NSTC, you have no family that you could borrow some money from for an attorney?


----------



## carmen ohio

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I had a bit of a setback today.
> 
> I went to the Family Law offices, and found that I they won't allow me to file on the Adultery petition without help of a lawyer. Apparently the proof requirements get a bit messy for the unwary.
> 
> *That leaves me with finding a lawyer who'll do this without payment, waiting for legal aid to be approved (could be four months),* or file under unacceptable behaviour. Which I'd mostly have to make up, because I thought she was a saint before I found out she's a slvt.


NSTC,

I still don't understand why you have no money. Your WW makes a good income. You are her spouse. Why can't you access the family financial resources? If she refuses to give you any money, you may have the right require her to. That's how it would work in the U.S.

Have you asked an attorney about this?


----------



## BK23

Can you put it on a credit card. Also, here in the states at least, in some cases with a stay at home parent, the working partner has to pay their attorneys' fees. Have you looked into it?


----------



## karole

At least schedule some consultations with different attorneys to find out your options.


----------



## Hicks

The only option your wife sees is divorce. And you are plodding ahead on only that path. 

If you don't want a divorce, you have to give her some concrete ideas of what she can do for reconcilation.


----------



## happyman64

NSTC

Can I ask you why you or both of you are rushing to end your marriage?

It is not a race. 

If my wife was the breadwinner and she cheated on me one of my first steps would be to go to the bank and remove half the money into my own account.

I mentioned actions earlier. 

You like Hong Kong. You are getting out and being active.

Your wife loves her job and travels a lot because of it.

You cannot control your wife. So let her continue to work. Lets see if she travels. Lets see if she cheats.

You should sit back and observe her actions.

And while you observe do the following:

Get your own bank account.
Secure some $$$ for yourself.
Work on your career.
Stay healthy in both mind and body.
Focus on your daughter.
Use this time to improve your outcome. With or without your wife.
And find the OMW to kill the Affair.

If my wife was the primary breadwinner I would not want her to lose her job. But I would not make her trips fun either.

I would work on my self esteem, my job prospects and my kid.

I would show my wife what she is going to lose. It does not mean you two Reconcile but I certainly would not make it easy on her.

She does not deserve easy.

Remember, all the choices are truly yours.

HM64


----------



## davecarter

happyman64 said:


> NSTC
> 
> Can I ask you why you or both of you are rushing to end your marriage?
> 
> It is not a race.
> 
> If my wife was the breadwinner and she cheated on me one of my first steps would be to go to the bank and remove half the money into my own account.
> 
> I mentioned actions earlier.
> 
> You like Hong Kong. You are getting out and being active.
> 
> Your wife loves her job and travels a lot because of it.
> 
> You cannot control your wife. So let her continue to work. Lets see if she travels. Lets see if she cheats.
> 
> You should sit back and observe her actions.
> 
> And while you observe do the following:
> 
> Get your own bank account.
> Secure some $$$ for yourself.
> Work on your career.
> Stay healthy in both mind and body.
> Focus on your daughter.
> Use this time to improve your outcome. With or without your wife.
> And find the OMW to kill the Affair.
> 
> If my wife was the primary breadwinner I would not want her to lose her job. But I would not make her trips fun either.
> 
> I would work on my self esteem, my job prospects and my kid.
> 
> I would show my wife what she is going to lose. It does not mean you two Reconcile but I certainly would not make it easy on her.
> 
> She does not deserve easy.
> 
> Remember, all the choices are truly yours.
> 
> HM64


Good points.
NSTC - even if your wife does start up seeing the OM again, you really might have to suck it up and swallow your pride for a bit, but HM has a valid, realistic view here...


----------



## Nucking Futs

davecarter said:


> Good points.
> NSTC - even if your wife does start up seeing the OM again, you really might have to suck it up and swallow your pride for a bit, but HM has a valid, realistic view here...


There is a good reason to rush filing. He needs to file first so the grounds for divorce will be her adultery rather than whatever "unreasonable behavior" she claims. Once he's filed the pace can slow down.


----------



## LongWalk

HappyMan makes good points. Your wife is very tied up to her work. If you practice a soft 180: polite and warm but absolutey not needy, then your marriage will limp on. While your wife concentrates on her career, filing for divorce will be a time consuming activity. If she is highly motivated to divorce let her pursue it.

At the end of the day your stay at home status is an advantage. You are more flexible. Build your HK life. Contacts, friends, etc. You are actually in a position to create her social life. You can arrange a picnic with another couple with a child up on the Peak. You can find neat little restaurants. You can perfect phrases of Cantonese that will draw laughs.


----------



## dogman

NeverSawThisComing said:


> After being angry for so long, I just had a wave of "I don't want to be angry any more" come over me.
> 
> Maybe it's time to negotiate for the best outcome for me.
> 
> It's just been so exhausting and consuming. I need to be finding a job and spending my time productively. The fun stuff and the next chapter of my life is only going to start once I've moved past this sordid mess.


Don't lose focus yet. If this was a fight you'd be tapping out too soon. 

Saying you want to get started moving on is a rationalization. 

Definitely make decisions based on you and your child's best interests, but don't compromise. She broke the contract, it shouldn't be easy for her to move on, it should have repercussions. 
There is no one who can give her repercussions but you. 

Don't get soft yet. It's only round one.


----------



## TDSC60

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I had a bit of a setback today.
> 
> I went to the Family Law offices, and found that I they won't allow me to file on the Adultery petition without help of a lawyer. Apparently the proof requirements get a bit messy for the unwary.
> 
> That leaves me with finding a lawyer who'll do this without payment, waiting for legal aid to be approved (could be four months), or file under unacceptable behaviour. Which I'd mostly have to make up, because I thought she was a saint before I found out she's a slvt.


Can you file under unacceptable behavior and list having sex with another man and being a pathological liar as the behaviors?


----------



## Jonathanedgar

I read through your post and man, I feel for you buddy. This is quite the situation you have fallen into. First off, nice writing.. Very clear and concise. Secondly, what great emotional control you have displayed throughout your ordeal. I think it really requires the best of both worlds to understand your emotions and not react on such and truly act on logic and reasoning. 

Now, there are so many things that come to light here when I have read through your ordeal and if you ultimately decide to go through with the big D as you have stated, or just continue the GAME of filing the papers to call her in to the negotiation table as you have mentioned, then that is wrong in itself. This isn't a game, marriage isn't a game. Your daughter isn't a game. That is just another means to strongarm the ultimate result that you are looking for. Stop the games, separate and take time if needed. Live your life a bit, give both of yourselves well needed space and time to heal your wounds and most importantly, FORGIVE HER. This will let you heal and understand what transcended. 

I have read responses and advice people have offered to you, most are wrong. You do have certain things you do have to own up to in regard to her infidelity, marriage is a decision by two people to live as one unit, and if the marriage fails it is on both to figure out what happened and make necessary changes so this doesn't happen again. I am not saying what she did is right nor mitigating what she did, But what happened is because of something she is missing at home. Women look for something when they don't get it at home and that there is where you have to figure out what you didn't give her so she could feel complete and whole as a WOMAN. FYI, women usually cheat for emotional reasons, men cheat for sex and something new. 

When you decide to make a family you need to make a true commitment to that family and resolve all issues for better and worse. Society has forgotten the true meaning of those little words. Divorce is much easier for both sides. But at the same time you can't play the game of snitching her out to her family and her boss in an attempt to control her life. You have no right doing those things. It is not for you to decide her ultimate fate. Your right is to have a wife, to care for her, love her more than she loves you, show her what type of man you are and what type of relationship you want. Do you want an emotionally functional relationship? then show her that, do you want a cheating relationship? then show her that. Ultimately it is the job of the man to lead the family forward. 

If it were an issue of drugs, gambling etc etc etc, would you throw her away? Would you throw a child away for their errors? if you answer no to either of those questions then you need to work on yourself and your marriage and realize that their is fault on your side and you can only control yourself but can lead the family to where you would like it to go. 

First things first, be a man and get a job. I am sorry if you don't like that response, but a man has many responsibilities to his family and he needs to give direction and the financial stability to his family. He needs to find the means to get to the end. A man is not a man staying at home. A man was designed to be a machine and work, give guidance and direction to his family and facilitate the means to achieve goals. This will help you and help her too if you get a job. 

Sorry if you take this personal, but I think society as a whole has lost some very important values and we need to remember that our word is more important then our pride. So she cheated, she is human, forgive her and find out and understand what happened. If you lead the chat and speak with your heart, not your ego and hurt pride and she has a big heart and good intentions, you two will be just fine and I am sure both of you will get through this.


----------



## Nepenthe

Edit: 

Dump her OR fight for her.


----------



## Jonathanedgar

One last point I wanted to make, Opinions are like butts, everyone has one and everybody will offer you their own view. But there is only one correct thing to do, own up to your part in the failure or fault, and move on. I don't know what religion you pertain to, but there are many scripts you can read through and find out lots of information on basic values for a marriage and basic responsibilities for both parties in the marriage. You do not have to live by the bible, but it does give you an idea of what is expected from you and her. These are good basic hard core values and there is no interpretation needed because it is very straightforward.


----------



## Dyokemm

Jonathanedgar,

You are absolutely right that each partner is responsible for the state of a M prior to an affair, and in some cases the BS may indeed be more at fault for the problems the couple has than the eventual WS.

But you are also absolutely wrong that the BS owns ANY part of a WS's decision to cheat. That is a cowardly decision the WS makes entirely on their own.

They had other options, but instead decided to betray their partner. There is no getting around this point by trying to shift blame for their choice onto the BS for their unhappiness.

They could have issued an ultimatum for change or demanded couple's counseling. 

They could have left and filed for divorce.

Instead the decide to 'cake eat' by keeping their spouse for the things they want from them and then betraying their spouse in the worst way possible.

It is an act of pure selfishness that they own 100% themselves.

And the BS is well within their rights to kick such a selfish, disloyal partner to the curb so fast their head spins.

They certainly do not owe their partner forgiveness.


----------



## Jonathanedgar

Dyokemm said:


> Jonathanedgar,
> 
> 
> 
> But you are also absolutely wrong that the BS owns ANY part of a WS's decision to cheat. That is a cowardly decision the WS makes entirely on their own.
> 
> 
> Maybe I didn't explain myself well, he is not to blame for her decision per say, but he is to blame for the actions leading up to the decision. Take the beaten wife scenario, now the husband didn't respect by beating her, then she made the decision to shoot him. She made the decision.. But the husband contributed to her mindset. That is my point with this, it is easy to blame her for going off and screwing another guy, but something isn't right for that to happen... simply that...


----------



## Dyokemm

"What do you think that told her about your priorities? You don't have a job and exist as a parasite on her income."

Nepenthe,

So he's to blame for supporting his WW's career dreams and goals by giving up his job to go to Hong Kong and then retrain himself (learn Mandarin) in order to restart his own job/career?

Is this the extent of your 'insight' into what happened in this situation?

We all have a right to our own opinions, but if this insulting trash is the best advice you have to say to the OP, I think its better if you take it somewhere else.


----------



## alte Dame

Oy vey. Rhymes with per se.


----------



## Dyokemm

"That is my point with this, it is easy to blame her for going off and screwing another guy, but something isn't right for that to happen... simply that..."

Jonathanedgar,

Like I said, I agree that the problems in a M prior to cheating are the responsibility of both people, and in some cases even more so the fault of the BS.

That has absolutely NO bearing on justifying an affair. The WS owns that 100%.

Such choices are made from pure selfishness and narcissism (even if its not a permanent feature of their overall personality). 

People that sit around and try to justify the actions they take, knowing those actions are wrong, are just immature babies.

Children do this.

Adults learn to own their s**t.

And I would also venture to say that there are plenty of affairs where the 'problem' is simply the selfishness of the cheater.

OP sacrificed a lot to support his WW in her career.

And this is how she repays that loyalty and support?

If you wanted to support and justify cheaters, or call for greater sympathy for their side of the story, you certainly could have picked a better WS and situation to make your point.

This one deserves anything that happens to her.


----------



## tom67

Dyokemm said:


> "That is my point with this, it is easy to blame her for going off and screwing another guy, but something isn't right for that to happen... simply that..."
> 
> Jonathanedgar,
> 
> Like I said, I agree that the problems in a M prior to cheating are the responsibility of both people, and in some cases even more so the fault of the BS.
> 
> That has absolutely NO bearing on justifying an affair. The WS owns that 100%.
> 
> Such choices are made from pure selfishness and narcissism (even if its not a permanent feature of their overall personality).
> 
> People that sit around and try to justify the actions they take, knowing those actions are wrong, are just immature babies.
> 
> Children do this.
> 
> Adults learn to own their s**t.
> 
> And I would also venture to say that there are plenty of affairs where the 'problem' is simply the selfishness of the cheater.
> 
> OP sacrificed a lot to support his WW in her career.
> 
> And this is how she repays that loyalty and support?
> 
> If you wanted to support and justify cheaters, or call for greater sympathy for their side of the story, you certainly could have picked a better WS and situation to make your point.
> 
> This one deserves anything that happens to her.


Ah Yea!:iagree::iagree: Actions have consequences, always.


----------



## Dyokemm

I don't know where these two posters came from (Jonathanedgar and Nepenthe), but if they want sympathetic voices to back them up in some echo chamber where cheating always has a cause and justification, I would suggest they head over to the OM/OW forum at Loveshack.

They will get plenty of validation for their opinions/views over there.

No offense guys if your still reading, but I think your opinions and theories on the issues of infidelity are ridiculous.

Blaming the victim of an injury (the BS) for the choice to inflict that injury (by the WS) is just nonsense to most logically thinking people.

Might as well blame a rape victim for what happened to her because she 'dressed sl**ty' or some other such foolish reason.

People who commit acts that injure others unjustly have no justifications for their choices.


----------



## warlock07

> "That is my point with this, it is easy to blame her for going off and screwing another guy, but something isn't right for that to happen... simply that..."


Yeah, her being a selfish. self centered cheater. The issue is not having sex, it is doing it while making him believe that they are still in a exclusive monogamous relationship. The issue here is the wife. Pretty sure the wife isn't perfect before this and has her own faults. So, would you suggest to the OP that cheat on her and blame the symptoms when he gets caught ?


----------



## LongWalk

It's perfectly okay to have other opinions. Obviously cheating happens for different reasons. If there is no respect from WS towards BS, then the step to cheat is not so great. If they hold thinly veiled contempt towards their spouse, then cheating will seem almost righteous. 

At the end of the day, few people can accept that the marriage contract is worthless when the violation is at their expense. So, the golden rule applies.


----------



## Jonathanedgar

Dyokemm said:


> I don't know where these two posters came from (Jonathanedgar and Nepenthe), but if they want sympathetic voices to back them up in some echo chamber where cheating always has a cause and justification, I would suggest they head over to the OM/OW forum at Loveshack.
> 
> They will get plenty of validation for their opinions/views over there.
> 
> No offense guys if your still reading, but I think your opinions and theories on the issues of infidelity are ridiculous.
> 
> Blaming the victim of an injury (the BS) for the choice to inflict that injury (by the WS) is just nonsense to most logically thinking people.
> 
> Might as well blame a rape victim for what happened to her because she 'dressed sl**ty' or some other such foolish reason.
> 
> People who commit acts that injure others unjustly have no justifications for their choices.



Posters?? jajajajaja good one.... More of a take care of what you need to take care of and make sure all your ducks are in a row type of thought that you have put all your honest effort into the relationship.. Have you ever read the bible yourself? 

Nobody is blaming the victim, but simply stating or implying the obvious, for a woman to be attracted to a man there have to be certain qualities a man has to accomplish to make himself more attractive to his partner.. Maybe you haven't learned these yourself? Nobody is giving her the clean bill of health, but he does not need to play control games, he needs to worry about what he did that led to these events and worry about himself and what he put into the marriage what he deems missing to fulfill his woman so she doesn't have a need to run off into the arms of another... The man has to be a MAN. PERIOD..... If he shows her bad attitude and games, then she has the right to do that...
Proverbs 12:4
A wife of noble character is her husband's crown, but a disgraceful wife is like decay in his bones. 

Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry. But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 

At the end of a day only one person can decide what punishment is fit, he took an oath for better and worse, he is married and that promise or commitment should be fulfilled by himself and his wife. They both need to see what went wrong in their marriage and fix it.. 

Proverbs 10:12 
Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all offenses


----------



## WyshIknew

So Jonathan, you can't think of the possibility that some/most (I have no idea of the possible percentages) adulterers are just selfish individuals?

Could it not be just as likely that OP is as near perfect a husband as most guys are and his only relevant fault was to trust his wife?

Bit of a reach to assume that because one person commits adultery the other person somehow bears the blame.

And yes I'm not such a fool that I can't see the opposite is true and that the BS can contribute to problems in the marriage.

But why can't the WS do what everyone else does? Sort out the problem, live with it or divorce.


----------



## Jonathanedgar

WyshIknew said:


> So Jonathan, you can't think of the possibility that some/most (I have no idea of the possible percentages) adulterers are just selfish individuals? Could be.
> 
> Could it not be just as likely that OP is as near perfect a husband as most guys are and his only relevant fault was to trust his wife? Hmmm, I think some of it could go deeper. But I think that is for him to decide what went wrong in his marriage.
> 
> Bit of a reach to assume that because one person commits adultery the other person somehow bears the blame. I'll take that back to the battered wife theory.... She killled so should her sin be mitigated or forgotten?
> 
> And yes I'm not such a fool that I can't see the opposite is true and that the BS can contribute to problems in the marriage.
> 
> But why can't the WS do what everyone else does? Sort out the problem, live with it or divorce.


 We are human and make mistakes.


----------



## Squeakr

Jonathanedgar said:


> We are human and make mistakes.


We are also human and make terrible and stupid decisions! Cheating is one of them. It is never a mistake, human or not, it is a choice!

The bible that you are quoting and throwing around so much, also says that adultery is the only reason for marriage to be ended, so it recognizes how awful it is also (and doesn't have passages about how to overcome it).


----------



## dogman

Everyone can say whatever they want. The truth is when you're faced with the destruction of your family and the loss of all you planned...things look different.

The OP has done a great job so far. He's on the right track, he just needs to stay focused for longer than he can imagine. 

His wife is in the fog, she may not be in love with the OM but he certainly derailed this marriage and he needs to have consequences.

....oh yeah! Can we just leave the bible out of this? It's confusing enough for the OP. let alone bringing in something people fight wars over.


----------



## warlock07

Jonathanedgar said:


> We are human and make mistakes.


Forgiveness doesn't mean you need to take them back..


----------



## Acabado

Jonathanedgar said:


> Maybe I didn't explain myself well, he is not to blame for her decision per say, but he is to blame for the actions leading up to the decision. Take the beaten wife scenario, now the husband didn't respect by beating her, then she made the decision to shoot him. She made the decision.. But the husband contributed to her mindset. That is my point with this, it is easy to blame her for going off and screwing another guy, but *something isn't right for that to happen... simply that*...


Decorum, I'm sorry if you believe there's unnecessaryly rude comments here but I can't think there's a worse timing to blame this OP of not being man enough (in the tradicional sense of being the provider) so he can share his part on this fiasco. Totaly uncalled for. Jonathanedgar's posts are pure blameshifting masked as blamesharing.
What is wrong is OP's wife is a cheater at her core, a serial one (she already cheated in other relationships), she's selfish, she has no self respect, she has no responsability (with a 2yrs old at home, seriously?), she's entitled and have the wrong priorities and piss poor boundaires.
And she's ungrateful, she takes and takes never has enough.
And her reaction after being caught is being upset because her stelar career is at ristk, that's all. Very telling. A light into her values and what everyone understand as human qualities. Still waiting for something which tell us she's thinking in the damage she caused him, to this other man wife, to her child... that she's thinking in some one else than herself.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Wow - I'm away for a day, and all hell breaks loose.

To be honest, I don't mind a bit of plurality in discussion here. It's healthy for me to hear a range of views. I do have a well tuned bullsheet detector, and I agree that a couple of the recent comments have been ill-informed.

Just to clarify... The 'not having a job' argument doesn't hold water, as the affair started only 4 months into my job search (in a new country), and this is after I dropped everything in Sydney for WW. WW and I also agreed three months ago that I would temporarily drop the job search, concentrate on Mandarin in order to be placed in as high a level class as possible when I got to Beijing. Mission accomplished, as I have just passed an intermediate level course. And now I'm back in HK and have restarted my job search.

There were communication issues in my marriage that could have been worked on, but considering a hectic past few years (baby, careers, moving the family overseas) I thought we were travelling pretty well. Certainly WW made not one single hint that she felt any different to me. She just went and had an affair. All the while there would be regular facebook updates while she was away 'on business', "Can't wait to get home to (daughter) and (me).", "Missing my hubby so much", etc.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

By the way, at risk of offending the more religious among us, I would say the following. If a point needs to be made in relation to the hearts, minds, lives and dramas of modern humans that requires you to quote from your preferred holy book, then it would probably be helpful if you rethink and reframe your point within a context that is relevant to humans living in 2013.

Just a thought


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Acabado said:


> Still waiting for something which tell us she's thinking in the damage she caused him, to this other man wife, to her child... that she's thinking in some one else than herself.


This sentence hit me pretty hard, Acabado, because it's very true. I hadn't thought about it like that.


----------



## happyman64

NeverSawThisComing said:


> By the way, at risk of offending the more religious among us, I would say the following. If a point needs to be made in relation to the hearts, minds, lives and dramas of modern humans that requires you to quote from your preferred holy book, then it would probably be helpful if you rethink and reframe your point within a context that is relevant to humans living in 2013.
> 
> Just a thought


I am religious and I am not offended.

Maybe that makes me not that religious after all.....


----------



## disconnected

Are you going hiking with Hong Kong hikers this Sunday?


----------



## tom67

disconnected said:


> Are you going hiking with Hong Kong hikers this Sunday?


Lucky sunday?


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

happyman64 said:


> I am religious and I am not offended.
> 
> Maybe that makes me not that religious after all.....


No, it just means you're a well rounded individual, that's all. By the way, I've enjoyed reading your advice over the past couple of days. Thank you.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

tom67 said:


> Lucky sunday?


Mmmaybe...


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

disconnected said:


> Are you going hiking with Hong Kong hikers this Sunday?


Yes, definitely. And an all day hike booked for the following weekend... umm... with one of the girls from last Sunday.


----------



## happyman64

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Yes, definitely. And an all day hike booked for the following weekend... umm... with one of the girls from last Sunday.


Good for you. Rebuild your self esteem.

Truly enjoy this time to ease the stress.

And just enjoy the company.

HM


----------



## tom67

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Yes, definitely. And an all day hike booked for the following weekend... umm... with one of the girls from last Sunday.


Uh oh! On a serious note right now your wife is the breadwinner, wouldn't he take the money from her at the end I mean your not working that's how it usually goes in the states maybe it's different.


----------



## EleGirl

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Yes, definitely. And an all day hike booked for the following weekend... umm... with one of the girls from last Sunday.


So you are dating now? 

How much contact have you had with this women since your like hiking weekend that you are now making plans with her?

It is very common for BSs to have revenge affairs. Be careful about putting yourself in the position for this to happen.

If you think things are messed up now, it could get exponentially worse.


----------



## EleGirl

happyman64 said:


> Good for you. Rebuild your self esteem.
> 
> Truly enjoy this time to ease the stress.
> 
> And just enjoy the company.
> 
> HM


You are encouraging him to go out with other women? Really?


----------



## bandit.45

This is the most confusing thread. I cannot figure this out. 

OP whee are you? China, Australia, Bejieng, fvcking Outer Mongolia? Is your wife on Oz, is she in China.... Christ am I the only fvcking person who can't figure out wher e this globe trotting family is. 

What is it with you Aussies and your fvcking wanderlust? I have never seen a group of people who desire to stay in their home country as little as Aussies do. I fvcking trip over Aussies here in Phoenix. 

No wonder you and your wife have marital problems. Settle the fvck down and try living together under one roof for God's sake. I'm not trying to be an ass but this thread wears me out. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Decorum

Acabado said:


> Decorum, I'm sorry if you believe there's unnecessaryly rude comments here but I can't think there's a worse timing to blame this OP of not being man enough (in the tradicional sense of being the provider) so he can share his part on this fiasco.


I am taking it on the chin for this one, ouch!

Acabado I am in complete agreement with your view here.

For example I think Dyokemm comments were right on the money.

My reference to acrimony was really intended for our 2 visitors that completely disqualified all the advice given to this point. I felt that it was provocative and did not have the best interest of the OP in mind.

I did not feel they deserved the posting space of a reply (my opinion), even though I did post in response to what they said, ha ha.

My use of the Bible was offered as an alternative view to our 2 visitors post to show that in reality you can use the Bible to prove anything.

I reread my post and I think this is easily to see, but these forums are low bandwidth and sometimes intentions are not clear, I get that.

NSTC, I think you are in a good place now. You have a strong sense of self, your wife knows you are the real deal and she can’t help but respect your decisions.

You can make decisions from a position of strength and that was what the advice up to this point was intended for (That and to blow up the affair).

It is not unusual for things to slow at this point, and for the BS to consider his options. That is as it should be. I echo Happymans advise to think through your next move(s).


In response to this…



NeverSawThisComing said:


> By the way, at risk of offending the more religious among us, I would say the following. If a point needs to be made in relation to the hearts, minds, lives and dramas of modern humans that requires you to quote from your preferred holy book, then it would probably be helpful if you rethink and reframe your point within a context that is relevant to humans living in 2013.Just a thought


Honestly NSTC I think this is condescending.

To think that the wisdom literature of ancient peoples has nothing to offer “modern” man is a quasi-enlightened modernistic view of life.

I am widely read in in these writings and have university training in classical languages I find their metaphors and similes very interesting. I love the Chinese works, I think Lao Tzu is sublime, call me crazy.

I guess, where one man sees insight another sees a trite and banal statement. Ha ha, it takes all kinds.

But I did not mean to offend anyone. (except dogman…kidding ), so to my fellow posters I will be more discrete in the future, at least outside of the appropriate forums.

Out of respect for your thread I have removed the offending posts, and I will simply wish you well.

Take care!


----------



## EleGirl

bandit.45 said:


> This is the most confusing thread. I cannot figure this out.
> 
> OP whee are you? China, Australia, Bejieng, fvcking Outer Mongolia? Is your wife on Oz, is she in China.... Christ am I the only fvcking person who can't figure out wher e this globe trotting family is.
> 
> What is it with you Aussies and your fvcking wanderlust? I have never seen a group of people who desire to stay in their home country as little as Aussies do. I fvcking trip over Aussies here in Phoenix.
> 
> No wonder you and your wife have marital problems. Settle the fvck down and try living together under one roof for God's sake. I'm not trying to be an ass but this thread wears me out.


:scratchhead: They do live under the same roof.


----------



## bandit.45

EleGirl said:


> :scratchhead: They do live under the same roof.


Well thank you for clarifying that, because the way he describes her it sounds like she is a million miles away. 

Maybe she is in spirit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

For anyone wondering, there is no intention on my part to get a gf or have a revenge affair. It would nullify my case for divorce due to adultery. I'm not silly - just getting out and meeting people.


----------



## EleGirl

bandit.45 said:


> Well thank you for clarifying that, because the way he describes her it sounds like she is a million miles away.
> 
> Maybe she is in spirit.


Yep in spirit. 

She works some high powered job and travels some. 

He was away for a week or so in the life-time of this thread for a language class. But he's home now. 

Hope that clarifies a bit.


----------



## EleGirl

NeverSawThisComing said:


> For anyone wondering, there is no intention on my part to get a gf or have a revenge affair. It would nullify my case for divorce due to adultery. I'm not silly - just getting out and meeting people.


I mentioned this, not because I think you are silly or looking for a revenge affair, but because you are vulnerable now. You might not realize it but just about every BS is at this point. It is so easy to just fall into at least an EA. 

So it's just food for thought.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Decorum said:


> I am taking it on the chin for this one, ouch!
> 
> Acabado I am in complete agreement with your view here.
> 
> For example I think Dyokemm comments were right on the money.
> 
> My reference to acrimony was really intended for our 2 visitors that completely disqualified all the advice given to this point. I felt that it was provocative and did not have the best interest of the OP in mind.
> 
> I did not feel they deserved the posting space of a reply (my opinion), even though I did post in response to what they said, ha ha.
> 
> My use of the Bible was offered as an alternative view to our 2 visitors post to show that in reality you can use the Bible to prove anything.
> 
> I reread my post and I think this is easily to see, but these forums are low bandwidth and sometimes intentions are not clear, I get that.
> 
> NSTC, I think you are in a good place now. You have a strong sense of self, your wife knows you are the real deal and she can’t help but respect your decisions.
> 
> You can make decisions from a position of strength and that was what the advice up to this point was intended for (That and to blow up the affair).
> 
> It is not unusual for things to slow at this point, and for the BS to consider his options. That is as it should be. I echo Happymans advise to think through your next move(s).
> 
> 
> In response to this…
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly NSTC I think this is condescending.
> 
> To think that the wisdom literature of ancient peoples has nothing to offer “modern” man is a quasi-enlightened modernistic view of life.
> 
> I am widely read in in these writings and have university training in classical languages I find their metaphors and similes very interesting. I love the Chinese works, I think Lao Tzu is sublime, call me crazy.
> 
> I guess, where one man sees insight another sees a trite and banal statement. Ha ha, it takes all kinds.
> 
> But I did not mean to offend anyone. (except dogman…kidding ), so to my fellow posters I will be more discrete in the future, at least outside of the appropriate forums.
> 
> Out of respect for your thread I have removed the offending posts, and I will simply wish you well.
> 
> Take care!


Decorum, my comment was not directed at you - sorry you took it as such. You've been so helpful to me over the past few weeks, I would never mean to offend you. Sorry, I should have been more specific as to my intended audience for that (perhaps insensitive) comment.

Peace.


----------



## bandit.45

EleGirl said:


> Yep in spirit.
> 
> She works some high powered job and travels some.
> 
> He was away for a week or so in the life-time of this thread for a language class. But he's home now.
> 
> Hope that clarifies a bit.


Thanks. That does clarify. I wasn't sure if he and his kid were hiking in Oz or up some yak trail in Tibet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Decorum, my comment was not directed at you - sorry you took it as such. You've been so helpful to me over the past few weeks, I would never mean to offend you. Sorry, I should have been more specific as to my intended audience for that (perhaps insensitive) comment.
> 
> Peace.


Don't feel bad. You' have every right to be a godless heathen. We Deists can be a pushy lot sometimes.


( this is a bad joke of course).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Wow - I'm away for a day, and all hell breaks loose.
> 
> To be honest, I don't mind a bit of plurality in discussion here. It's healthy for me to hear a range of views. I do have a well tuned bullsheet detector, and I agree that a couple of the recent comments have been ill-informed.
> 
> Just to clarify... The 'not having a job' argument doesn't hold water, as the affair started only 4 months into my job search (in a new country), and this is after I dropped everything in Sydney for WW. WW and I also agreed three months ago that I would temporarily drop the job search, concentrate on* Mandarin in order to be placed in as high a level class as possible when I got to Beijing. *Mission accomplished, as I have just passed an intermediate level course. And now I'm back in HK and have restarted my job search.
> 
> There were communication issues in my marriage that could have been worked on, but considering a hectic past few years (baby, careers, moving the family overseas) I thought we were travelling pretty well. Certainly WW made not one single hint that she felt any different to me. She just went and had an affair. All the while there would be regular facebook updates while she was away 'on business', "Can't wait to get home to (daughter) and (me).", "Missing my hubby so much", etc.


HK as a point of transition to Beijing. Makes sense. That's a well beaten path. The air in Beijing is horrible so you cannot afford to split up and live in an apartment that does not protect your children's lungs. So forget about splitting without sufficient income.

If your Mandarin is coming along, you'll get the lay of the land faster than your wife and that will boost your sex ranking and leadership role. In China money is everything and nothing, since adapting to the culture is paramount to happiness.

It's like Paris. If you don't speak French and don't like the people, being stationed there for a company is likely to be miserable experience.

Your wife is on probation now. You're going to find out what she is made of under pressure. If you are strong now, she may come back grateful and remorseful. If not, she will fail the test life gave her.


----------



## tom67

LongWalk said:


> HK as a point of transition to Beijing. Makes sense. That's a well beaten path. The air in Beijing is horrible so you cannot afford to split up and live in an apartment that does not protect your children's lungs. So forget about splitting without sufficient income.
> 
> If your Mandarin is coming along, you'll get the lay of the land faster than your wife and that will boost your sex ranking and leadership role. In China money is everything and nothing, since adapting to the culture is paramount to happiness.
> 
> It's like Paris. If you don't speak French and don't like the people, being stationed there for a company is likely to be miserable experience.
> 
> Your wife is on probation now. You're going to find out what she is made of under pressure. If you are strong now, she may come back grateful and remorseful. If not, she will fail the test life gave her.


For any real remorse to appear he has to file jmo.


----------



## LongWalk

tom67 said:


> For any real remorse to appear he has to file jmo.


With both of them adapting to a new country, culture and language, the need to file for divorce to create shock is unnecessary. His wife will be scrambling to cover all bases. The OP can play this instead of proceeding to divorce. She will be very dependent on him.

OP hasn't explained what landed her the post in China. It's her job competence and understanding of the company's Asian expansion plans. Not all executives survive the transfer to China. Failure happens because dealing with a radically different environment is tough. You have to be flexible while keeping hold of core values.

Oops, core values, she already blew that one in her marriage. So, she is facing a real struggle. OP should be supportive of her if she turns around. He needs to measure her by her actions. She'll have much more difficulty hiding affairs under pressure.

Perhaps the OP should get a couple of VARs for the apartment. When he takes the children out and she is on the phone, he will soon know if she is fooling around.


----------



## davecarter

bandit.45 said:


> This is the most confusing thread. I cannot figure this out.
> 
> OP whee are you? China, Australia, Bejieng, fvcking Outer Mongolia? Is your wife on Oz, is she in China.... Christ am I the only fvcking person who can't figure out wher e this globe trotting family is.
> 
> What is it with you Aussies and your fvcking wanderlust? I have never seen a group of people who desire to stay in their home country as little as Aussies do. I fvcking trip over Aussies here in Phoenix.
> 
> No wonder you and your wife have marital problems. Settle the fvck down and try living together under one roof for God's sake. I'm not trying to be an ass but this thread wears me out.
> 
> 
> ...because the way he describes her it sounds like she is a million miles away.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Shouldn't LOL @ a serious thread, but I was thinking _exactly _the same thing!


----------



## Dyokemm

Man I'm glad I had to get off for awhile this afternoon now that I saw your last post Jonathanedgar.

It would have set me off at the time.

Please don't preach to me with that bs sense of superiority I've seen in far too many Christians in my time.

I was raised in a very religious family. Read the Bible several times. Two great-grandfathers were ministers.

So yeah I know your argument.

Here's the thing.

I apologize in advance if any of our other religious posters are upset by this, but this smug gentleman has called me out like I'm an idiot so I'm gonna be a little blunt with him.

I outgrew religion along with other things I consider myths like Santa Claus quite a while ago, Jonathan. 

So, to be perfectly I honest, I completely reject your holy book as the final word on any human problem or condition.

I know it contains a lot of good common sense wisdom and teaching, but I do not view it as some type of ultimate authority.

There are other philosophical and religious writings that are just as valid, many of which have very different views on issues like forgiveness, justice, and the proper stance for the victim of an offense to take.


----------



## weightlifter

I **AM** a Christian.

Even the bible lets you D a cheater. Perhaps we should just go back to the old testament remedies for cheaters. Saves all that divorce drama. The state could make a mint selling the pay per view rights to all those basement dwellers so they can watch biblical punishment.

I admire those who can R after a PA. The only situation I have seen here where I would have been able to even consider it was RTBP's wife where she literally was tearing herself to pieces over the guilt of it, ended it by herself, and was one of the closest weve come to self confessed.

Anyway OP. Sorry the legal thing is such a mess. Do look into "having her pay" Dunno HK law but in the US SAHM's do it all the time.


----------



## disconnected

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Yes, definitely. And an all day hike booked for the following weekend... umm... with one of the girls from last Sunday.


G O O D!!
that is brilliant news.
keep on looking after yourself.


----------



## Dyokemm

Weightlifter,

I apologize again if that upset you.

I have no problems with religious people at all if they are not offensively rude to me, as I felt Jonathan was.

I really respect the insight and perspectives your posts bring to the forum, and its because of people like you that I know are religious and that I enjoy reading posts from, that I was a little torn being so blunt with Jonathanedgar.


----------



## disconnected

So, did you have a good day yesterday with Hong Kong hikers?


----------



## happyman64

EleGirl said:


> You are encouraging him to go out with other women? Really?


No. I am encouraging him to get out of his home, enjoy the company of others and rebuild his self worth.

Nothing more and nothing less.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Hi guys, and thanks for checking in on me 

I had a great time on Sunday. The hike finished at about 2pm, I went home for a quick shower and get changed (by myself - promise!), and then went straight back out again with one of the girls from the hike.

We went to a couple of pubs and saw a great band in the evening, and I got home at about 1am.

I don't want to be married anymore to my WW. I've had a taste of what my life as a new bachelor is going to be like here, and I like it - a lot. So there's a choice. Spend the next x-number of years trying to repair this broken marriage with a woman who has lost her respect for me and is potentially a serial cheater, or enjoy my life. It's really a no-brainer for me.


----------



## LongWalk

So your wife was home at the time? You have a child together so splitting will not be uncomplicated.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

I have no doubt that it will be complicated. I'm seeing a lawyer tomorrow. My wife let it slip last night that she is seeing a lawyer today.


----------



## tom67

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I have no doubt that it will be complicated. I'm seeing a lawyer tomorrow. My wife let it slip last night that she is seeing a lawyer today.


Ahhh!


----------



## disconnected

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Hi guys, and thanks for checking in on me
> 
> I had a great time on Sunday. The hike finished at about 2pm, I went home for a quick shower and get changed (by myself - promise!), and then went straight back out again with one of the girls from the hike.
> 
> We went to a couple of pubs and saw a great band in the evening, and I got home at about 1am.
> 
> I don't want to be married anymore to my WW. I've had a taste of what my life as a new bachelor is going to be like here, and I like it - a lot. So there's a choice. Spend the next x-number of years trying to repair this broken marriage with a woman who has lost her respect for me and is potentially a serial cheater, or enjoy my life. It's really a no-brainer for me.


It is so good to read this post ... so positive, and shows the way forward, and of course leaving behind the unhappiness WW caused you.

It has only been four weeks since your first posting on this thread. If you have managed to get to this point after four weeks, then that is wonderful. 

It has taken me 9 months to get to the point where I now see there is no future with my WH. I would have LOVED to have gotten to this point after one month, but it has been too painful.

What I mean is that though it is great news that you have advanced so much in four weeks, please still be a bit cautious ... just in case your emotions go down instead of staying high like they are now.

My advice ?? ... have a great time because you have been through hell ... but also take things slowly with any new friends. But go out and enjoy yourself and have a great time.

BTW - Your WW will not be happy about that.

Best of luck with the lawyer. And also - good luck in getting a good job in Hong Kong.


----------



## happyman64

Nstc

Have spoken to your wife's boss lately or made contact with the OMW?

HM


----------



## tom67

happyman64 said:


> Nstc
> 
> Have spoken to your wife's boss lately or made contact with the OMW?
> 
> HM


DO IT!:iagree::iagree:


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

I haven't spoken with her boss for a while, and I don't think I will. I don't really see the value in it. However that doesn't mean that there isn't an angle to play there though. My wife loves her career so much, I just need to casually mention that I'll subpoena her boss, and I think she'll cave to any demands that I make. I doubt we'll even have to have our day in court. 

OMW is another matter entirely. Yes I have a plan. That's all I can say for the moment.


----------



## tom67

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I haven't spoken with her boss for a while, and I don't think I will. I don't really see the value in it. However that doesn't mean that there isn't an angle to play there though. My wife loves her career so much, I just need to casually mention that I'll subpoena her boss, and I think she'll cave to any demands that I make. I doubt we'll even have to have our day in court.
> 
> OMW is another matter entirely. Yes I have a plan. That's all I can say for the moment.


you better or the long stabby thing is coming out. Inside joke.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

tom67 said:


> you better or the long stabby thing is coming out. Inside joke.


I would expect nothing less


----------



## LongWalk

So where will you file? Is Beijing off now?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

LongWalk said:


> So where will you file? Is Beijing off now?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I will be filing in HK. I was only in Beijing for a month doing a language course.


----------



## disconnected

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I haven't spoken with her boss for a while, and I don't think I will. I don't really see the value in it. However that doesn't mean that there isn't an angle to play there though. My wife loves her career so much, I just need to casually mention that I'll subpoena her boss, and I think she'll cave to any demands that I make. I doubt we'll even have to have our day in court.
> 
> OMW is another matter entirely. Yes I have a plan. That's all I can say for the moment.


re OMW ... good one ... you have got a plan. Good luck!!:smthumbup:


----------



## tom67

Here is what we were laughing about 'Long, stabby thing' - YouTube


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

disconnected said:


> re OMW ... good one ... you have got a plan. Good luck!!:smthumbup:


Thanks! I should be able to report back on OMW in about a week.


----------



## warlock07

How is the wife reacting ? Or is she out of town ?


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

disconnected said:


> It is so good to read this post ... so positive, and shows the way forward, and of course leaving behind the unhappiness WW caused you.
> 
> It has only been four weeks since your first posting on this thread. If you have managed to get to this point after four weeks, then that is wonderful.
> 
> It has taken me 9 months to get to the point where I now see there is no future with my WH. I would have LOVED to have gotten to this point after one month, but it has been too painful.
> 
> What I mean is that though it is great news that you have advanced so much in four weeks, please still be a bit cautious ... just in case your emotions go down instead of staying high like they are now.
> 
> My advice ?? ... have a great time because you have been through hell ... but also take things slowly with any new friends. But go out and enjoy yourself and have a great time.
> 
> BTW - Your WW will not be happy about that.
> 
> Best of luck with the lawyer. And also - good luck in getting a good job in Hong Kong.



Thanks Disconnected.

I would attribute my speedy recovery in large part to the support I've had from you and many others within this thread. I know there's still more recovering to do though. If the last week is any indication, I'm sure there are many local girls here who will help me through this difficult time 

I hope and trust that the worst is over in your own situation. Nine months sounds like hell. One month was hell for me.

Regarding work - I have a meeting with the head of a large recruitment practice on Thursday. Strings were pulled on my behalf to get this meeting arranged, so hopefully something comes of this.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

warlock07 said:


> How is the wife reacting ? Or is she out of town ?


She's in town at the moment, although she will be away for a week from Sunday.

We are starting to get on each others nerves a bit. There's no remorse on her part. And I think she's a pile of trash.

We stay out of each others way.


----------



## Dyokemm

"We are starting to get on each others nerves a bit. There's no remorse on her part. And I think she's a pile of trash."

People usually have nothing but hatred and viciousness for you when the veil is torn and you see who they really are. It is a consequence of trying to cover their guilt and shame.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

Well put, Dyokemm.

I think that's exactly what I'm witnessing.


----------



## disconnected

Dyokemm said:


> "We are starting to get on each others nerves a bit. There's no remorse on her part. And I think she's a pile of trash."
> 
> People usually have nothing but hatred and viciousness for you when the veil is torn and you see who they really are. It is a consequence of trying to cover their guilt and shame.


too right!!

discovery and exposure are ace in bringing out the true colours


----------



## warlock07

How is the kid dealing with this ?


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

warlock07 said:


> How is the kid dealing with this ?


We are shielding her pretty well from this. 

STBXW is really only seeing our daughter for the weekends and an hour for about 3 weeknights during the week. When she comes home, I just usually hand over to her so that she does get to spend some time with her.

Although she usually hands back to me for bedtime, as our daughter will go straight to sleep for me, but throws a tantrum when STBXW tries to put her to bed.


----------



## LongWalk

NeverSawThisComing said:


> She's in town at the moment, although she will be away for a week from Sunday.
> 
> We are starting to get on each others nerves a bit. There's no remorse on her part. And I think she's a pile of trash.
> 
> We stay out of each others way.


She assumed she could eat cake. Now she cannot even wash down the mouthful that is sticking in her throat.

Her total lack of remorse is sad but it seems that changing mates sets off a psychological process. Not liking you anymore is a necessity. If you aren't a demon, then she bad. Better for you to be a demon. Your ability to move on is a blow for her to be sure. It would be better if you were clinging and she could despise you for being needy.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

LongWalk said:


> She assumed she could eat cake. Now she cannot even wash down the mouthful that is sticking in her throat.
> 
> Her total lack of remorse is sad but it seems that changing mates sets off a psychological process. Not liking you anymore is a necessity. If you aren't a demon, then she bad. Better for you to be a demon. Your ability to move on is a blow for her to be sure. It would be better if you were clinging and she could despise you for being needy.


I love the clarity of posts like this that I read every day on TAM. I never understood the source of her anger at me nor her demonizing of me, but now it's obvious. Thank you - it does make perfect sense now. It's her way of (not) dealing with the fact that she's a home-wrecker.


----------



## LongWalk

Eventually you may come so far as to ask her forgiveness for your failures. Right now you are too angry. But eventually you'll be more indifferent and philosophical. By apologizing to her and taking blame it will not justify her cheating. Just the opposite. She'll be left trying to hate you when you don't hate her.

Hard to hate when the other, who has more reason to hate, does not. And at that point she can only look in the mirror. This step is debated a lot because it takes time to get there and some people refuse to consider it. However, in the psychological process that is repeated, it is a great moment.

You probably need to get through the fight over the terms of divorce before you reach this point. You are moving quickly though.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

LongWalk said:


> Eventually you may come so far as to ask her forgiveness for your failures. Right now you are too angry.


I am a devious ****er, and I could imagine doing this to screw with her mind. But you're right. Not yet - I'm too angry.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

So STBXW returned home a few minutes ago. Early due to her appointment with her lawyer.

I asked if I'm about to be served with papers - she shook her head and said no, that wasn't the purpose of her meeting.

That's good, as my instructions to my lawyer tomorrow will be file asap. I'll sit in their office and type it up if necessary.


----------



## LongWalk

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I am a devious ****er, and I could imagine doing this to screw with her mind. But you're right. Not yet - I'm too angry.


Only works if it is genuine. It is not a goal but place where some end up. Right now you need to detach and bash out a good settlement. Economically, she must support you in this transition period.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

NeverSawThisComing said:


> I love the clarity of posts like this that I read every day on TAM. I never understood the source of her anger at me nor her demonizing of me, but now it's obvious. Thank you - it does make perfect sense now. It's her way of (not) dealing with the fact that she's a home-wrecker.


 That's why rewriting history is part of the script. Any time a potentially wayward spouse starts telling you she never loved you, or she was always unhappy, or she was just faking it...she's cheating.


----------



## davecarter

NSTC,

Time to drop 'Little Boy' and 'Fat Man' on your WW and her OM...
:lol:


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

turnera said:


> That's why rewriting history is part of the script. Any time a potentially wayward spouse starts telling you she never loved you, or she was always unhappy, or she was just faking it...she's cheating.


And I was even starting to believe her rewrite. It seems such a waste of a family. For what?

Well, better 6 years in than 16 years.


----------



## NeverSawThisComing

davecarter said:


> NSTC,
> 
> Time to drop 'Little Boy' and 'Fat Man' on your WW and her OM...
> :lol:


Soon, my friend. Soon. This Monday actually.

Once I know that OMW has confronted OM, I'll be sending OM an email containing a single word: BOOM.


----------



## Decorum

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Decorum, my comment was not directed at you - sorry you took it as such.
> Peace.


Thank you NSTC, at the time I thought I was included in your (perhaps insensitive ) comment, and I was surprised that you were being snarky with me. 

I was annoyed when I read JE's posts, I skimmed it and posted in reply to it.

I'm just back in town after a few and days re-read this section, so I'm good with putting it behind us. :smthumbup:

BTW am I the only one that cannot access page 47 of this thread, I cannot read the posts there, :scratchhead:

Once again thanks for the explanation.

Take care!

p.s. Bandit, you are sooo naughty, I thought you worshiped the dark one, now you are a deist? Don't reply here!


----------



## lenzi

Decorum said:


> BTW am I the only one that cannot access page 47 of this thread, I cannot read the posts there, :scratchhead:


No one can answer that question. 

I can tell you that I tried loading page 47 and had no problem with it, so it appears to be an issue on your end.

Clear your cache and history, close your browser, and try again.


----------



## Decorum

lenzi said:


> No one can answer that question.
> 
> I can tell you that I tried loading page 47 and had no problem with it, so it appears to be an issue on your end.
> 
> Clear your cache and history, close your browser, and try again.


It's still not getting there with my laptop, I will be back at work tonight and will try from there.

Thx lenzi


----------



## Decorum

NSTC,
Its been a few days , you doing ok?


----------



## disconnected

Decorum said:


> NSTC,
> Its been a few days , you doing ok?


Hi, I am wondering too. Did you go hiking yesterday? Is today still BOOM day? Hope you and your daughter are both ok.


----------



## davecarter

NeverSawThisComing said:


> Soon, my friend. Soon. This Monday actually.
> 
> Once I know that OMW has confronted OM, I'll be sending OM an email containing a single word: BOOM.


This.


----------



## MEM2020

NSTC,
I believe you have responded to the affair with a high level of maturity and emotional control. And a genuine optimism that you will be able to produce a positive outcome for yourself and your wife. 

Out of your entire thread, the two things really jumped out at me: 
1. Your / her communication styles (extrovert/introvert levels). 
She comes home and in a bubbly way uses a lot of words and jumps around from topic to topic:
And my response to that can be somewhat irritated 

2. The extreme drop in your sex life after your child was born

When I read (1), I laughed because I think many couples have some amount of that dynamic. My wife and I sure do. 

When I read (2), I paused. And I waited for more of your thread to 'unspool'. 

Now that it has, I can better frame this question about (2). You have described your 'pre affair' wife as very honest. Did she hide behind 'new baby, busy life' platitudes? Or was she straight with you about (2) being driven by a disconnect between you two? 





NeverSawThisComing said:


> Wow - I'm away for a day, and all hell breaks loose.
> 
> To be honest, I don't mind a bit of plurality in discussion here. It's healthy for me to hear a range of views. I do have a well tuned bullsheet detector, and I agree that a couple of the recent comments have been ill-informed.
> 
> Just to clarify... The 'not having a job' argument doesn't hold water, as the affair started only 4 months into my job search (in a new country), and this is after I dropped everything in Sydney for WW. WW and I also agreed three months ago that I would temporarily drop the job search, concentrate on Mandarin in order to be placed in as high a level class as possible when I got to Beijing. Mission accomplished, as I have just passed an intermediate level course. And now I'm back in HK and have restarted my job search.
> 
> There were communication issues in my marriage that could have been worked on, but considering a hectic past few years (baby, careers, moving the family overseas) I thought we were travelling pretty well. Certainly WW made not one single hint that she felt any different to me. She just went and had an affair. All the while there would be regular facebook updates while she was away 'on business', "Can't wait to get home to (daughter) and (me).", "Missing my hubby so much", etc.


----------



## davecarter

Any updates, NSTC?


----------



## disconnected

Hi. Could you please just tell us that all is ok. Hoping that you and your daughter are fine. Cheers.


----------



## Decorum

He hasn't logged in since the 10th. There is often a lull at this point but there is no telling which way its going.

Hoping for the best!


----------



## davecarter

Reconciliation going on, anyone?


----------



## CASE_Sensitive

Hoping you're doing well.


----------



## davecarter

Looks like the OP caved-in....like so many others.

Sad.


----------



## Decorum

I hope he does not end up settling for a woman that actually isn't into him. What kind of epiphany would it take for her to realize she was letting go of the love of her life?

I hope she is not playing him.

Making someone's skin crawl as they give into duty sex is not my idea of marriage, but men will go through hell and back for their kids sometimes, even if mistakenly so.


----------



## Chaparral

I'm guessing he is done withher and has no need to "cope" with infidelity. I hate to see families break up over this kind of selfishness but there is a reason why people cannot get over the traitorous acts of an adulterer.

Sadly, experts claim 80% of the couples that break up because of infidelity, regret that move. Easy to see why when you can look back and see the damage done to all the family and friends involved including what the cheaters themselves go through.


----------



## illwill

That 80% refers to wayward wives who regret divorcing. It comes from a Cosmopolitan study.


----------



## Shaggy

illwill said:


> That 80% refers to wayward wives who regret divorcing. It comes from a Cosmopolitan study.


And therein lies the lovely truth.

Cosmo - which certain does nothing to disgorge cheating.

And cheating wives who get rightly dumped by the guys they cheated on, and the same guys who then go on to have successful loving lives with better women who don't cheat on them.


----------



## Chaparral

I don't know what study it came from, it was under a huge list of infidelity stats. However, couples were specifically mentioned, not wayward wives.


----------



## illwill

I have yet to meet or read about one person who regrets divorcing a cheater. I'm sure they exist, but it's rare.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Yeah, I stay out of the stat game. I've found enough information to realize that the 80% and 50% numbers are misrepresented. 

I no longer know, or care, which is true. If it helps you reconcile to believe 80% of divorcees regret it, then go ahead. If it helps you divorce by believing 50% of marriages fail, then go ahead.


----------



## Chaparral

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yeah, I stay out of the stat game. I've found enough information to realize that the 80% and 50% numbers are misrepresented.
> 
> I no longer know, or care, which is true. If it helps you reconcile to believe 80% of divorcees regret it, then go ahead. If it helps you divorce by believing 50% of marriages fail, then go ahead.


The fifty percent of marriages failing is a misleading stat too. People that divorce are more than likely to divorce more than once, skewing the real number of people who divorce. I can't remember the real number. A radio dude also said the divorce rate has been going down for several years.

According to a Chrstian radio program, Christians are a little more likely to divorce than he general population. Nice guy syndrome?


----------



## Decorum

My son had a stat class in college he said that 95% of all stats are made up on the spot.
Especially if said in a court room.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alte Dame

Yes, and over 75% of the people who quote stats misremember 80% of what they are quoting.


----------



## Harken Banks

95% of life is just showing up.


----------



## Hicks

90% of baseball is half mental


----------



## Harken Banks

Invention is 93% perspiration, 6% electricity, 4% evaporation, and 2% butterscotch ripple. And as it is playoff season and keeping with the baseball theme, I suggest that every BS should take this page from **** Stuart: 'I add 20 points to my average if I know I look *****in' out there.' Yeah, he was a ****, but I always liked this quote.


----------



## alte Dame

Harken Banks said:


> 95% of life is just showing up.


The other 5% is me hiding where the sun don't shine & happily so. (Or it could be 4%, with the other 1% being Nate Silver's 'No opinion' category.)


----------



## Shaggy

123% of stats are over inflated.


----------



## CASE_Sensitive

Fact - this sentence is a lie


----------



## Chaparral

Decorum said:


> My son had a stat class in college he said that 95% of all stats are made up on the spot.
> Especially if said in a court room.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He sure didn't take my stats class. My instantaneous poll says 97.5% of those polled think he should transfer to another college, even though its nice in the Carribean.


----------



## Decorum

Chaparral said:


> He sure didn't take my stats class. My instantaneous poll says 97.5% of those polled think he should transfer to another college, even though its nice in the Carribean.


Ha ha ha ha, that's funny. He just graduated from a university in Illinois and it was worth every cent, he plans to move to Nigeria and open his own business using email check cashing scams. :rofl:

(Chap I appreciate your humor, it was a bit of a drive by post on my part, and I almost deleted it right after I posted it. I meant no actual dis against any stats shared here.) TTYL


----------



## alte Dame

CASE_Sensitive said:


> Fact - this sentence is a lie


There's only a 76% chance that that sentence is a lie. (But then I like baseball, so I'm half mental.)


----------



## Decorum

Rogers Hornsby 
"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it."

I pretty much 100% agree!


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## davecarter

*BUMP.*

This was a pretty interesting thread...looked like OP had his ducks in a row and was ready to drop the hammer on the OM but nothing for over a month. :scratchhead:

Another RDMU-esque situation...another husband caved-in over a false 'R'?


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## LongWalk

We'll never know. But he was on top of things and will survive better than average.

If R is taking place, it's because she saw her family about to disappear for a sexual relationship that would not lead to anything. He came down right with the D filing. 

If they are in R, you can be sure that he will never let her walk all over him again.


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