# Is it an affair during separation?



## desperateguy

My wife and I separated 3 months ago. We agreed to work on ourselves while separated and work toward reconciliation. The plan was a few weeks silence, then getting together once a week and seeing how things went from there. 

I found out that 24 hours after I moved out, she registered on a dating site and was actively using it. 

When I confronted her with that she told me she wanted to date people but not sleep with them. Then a few weeks later she told me she wanted to sleep with some guys. I'm pretty sure she's done that (I can get proof if needed), and likely has a boyfriend.

We have had virtually no contact since separation, except around kids and basic logistical stuff. She has made it clear she now has no interest in reconciliation.

I don't believe she set me up, her actions are in response to her extreme emotional reaction.

Given we were separated, albeit for 24 hours, at the time she started dating, does this count as an affair? Is exposure an appropriate tactic? Many people would say "you are separated, you can do what you want".

Bear in mind, she is active in church (not the same church I go to) and virtually all her friends are as well.


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## that_girl

It's cheating.

100% cheating.

It was her plan all along but didn't want to hurt your feelings at the time of separation.

My husband and I separated under similar terms. work on ourselves and check in once a week. Neither of us dated or anything.

if we had, that would have been the end.

Separation is not an "eff all" situation unless agreed on by both parties. in my eyes, separation is not single. You are still married and this will forever stain your marriage.

You cannot reconcile when one person is boffing other people.


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## desperateguy

that_girl said:


> It was her plan all along but didn't want to hurt your feelings at the time of separation.


I really honestly believe it wasn't her plan. Call me delusional, but I don't think so, I know her, and I also know of stuff she said to others. 

Regardless, it is what it is. 

Is exposure a legitimate tactic? People will be less sympathetic - "she is separated, she can do what she wants".


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## that_girl

She agreed with you to work on yourselves and check in.

Instead, she got online and met men and now wants to sleep with them.

That doesn't happen overnight. You are delusional.

Separation is not divorce.


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## desperateguy

I still maintain it wasn't planned. But we might have to disagree on that. She is a very emotional person, and the move out caused her to crack. She had said to trusted friends a few weeks before the separation that she really didn't want a divorce. 

So what do you think I should do?


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## that_girl

I think it's time to stop trying to work on the marriage. You can't control her, you can only control yourself. How can you work on the marriage if she's effin other men?

Tell her she's changed the rules and now you will see what you have to do.


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## chaos

Since she doesn't want reconciliation, why not file for divorce?


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## that_girl

Yea, if she wants to live like she's single...then let her be single.


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## Paladin

desperateguy said:


> I found out that 24 hours after I moved out, she registered on a dating site and was actively using it.
> 
> ... she wanted to date people but not sleep with them... she wanted to sleep with some guys.(I can get proof if needed),
> 
> *She has made it clear she now has no interest in reconciliation.*


I'm not sure how registering on a dating site could be seen as "working on herself." After telling you she wanted to "just date" she started f*cking other men and then made it clear to you that she was done. Last time I checked, separation was not divorce so she is still your wife, and is having an affair (multiple affairs probably)

Consult with an attorney, sooner than later, and file for D. Protect your assets, look up "Just let them go" here in CWI (someone will be kind enough to post a link, I'm sure)

It sucks that she couldnt just tell you up front that she was done with you, and had to debase herself like that. Unless she did, and you just didnt hear it. Anyhow, it is not a nice place to be, but for R to work, two people have to want it. She does not, maybe facing the reality of what she is doing when she sees the papers will help her along, if not her, than you.

Good Luck, I'm sorry you are in this situation, it will get better.


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## unbelievable

Not sure what difference it makes whether you call this "cheating" or a peanut butter sandwich. Either she is working to heal the marriage or she's working to destroy it. Her conduct is something you are prepared to tolerate or it's not. Those would seem to be the only two relevant questions.


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## desperateguy

I take your point all. Let me play devil's advocate.

We've all seen cases - many cases - of people running off with an affair or whatever, and then after a few months having a change of heart. I'm not going to throw away 18 years and the future of our 2 kids that easily. 

And, I'm in Australia. No divorce till 12 months separation.


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## unbelievable

It seems to make sense that a woman who has decided to leave her marriage for another man wouldn't be likely to register for a dating site. Such a woman would already have another relationship. You have 18 years and a couple kids invested. You can't stop her from window shopping. Odds are, what she's going to discover is that what she had at home beats the losers she's likely to find on-line. Work on yourself and have faith. She has just as much invested in this marriage as you.


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## desperateguy

unbelievable said:


> It seems to make sense that a woman who has decided to leave her marriage for another man wouldn't be likely to register for a dating site. Such a woman would already have another relationship. You have 18 years and a couple kids invested. You can't stop her from window shopping. Odds are, what she's going to discover is that what she had at home beats the losers she's likely to find on-line. Work on yourself and have faith. She has just as much invested in this marriage as you.


I agree. I know for sure she didn't have a boyfriend when we separated, or a particular one in mind. 

The problem is, she is so emotional, has so much anger over stuff that happened during the marriage (nothing extreme, no beatings, just the usual stuff most people mess up, emotional neglect, etc etc) that she is irrational. 

I am working on myself, a lot, making great progress.


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## Entropy3000

desperateguy said:


> *I really honestly believe it wasn't her plan.* Call me delusional, but I don't think so, I know her, and I also know of stuff she said to others.
> 
> Regardless, it is what it is.
> 
> Is exposure a legitimate tactic? People will be less sympathetic - "she is separated, she can do what she wants".


24 hours. It was her plan. She decided she was single. But that does not matter. It is what it is. Your choice to make it permanent. Divorce her and move on. She could not wait to become isolated so she could do this. At the very least she wanted a break from being married to explore and play with other men. How fun for her. If you are ok with this then go for it. We all have different boundaries.

I do not believe in separations. This must be the fifth thread about wives who are separating and register on dating sites just this past week. Wow the recruiting for these sites must be really up huh?

Anyway ... separation ... bad idea for most. But you are supposed to be married so no dating other people and especially banging them is frowned upon. YMMV. You are her backup plan.

Instigation, Isolation and Escalation. She was on dating sites in less than 24 hours. Wanting to date other men. Adults do not generally date each other without the expectation of having sex within so many dates. She is married and wanted to date other men. Wasted no time at all. You do the math.

She has no respect for you any more and may have done some of this out of resentement. That is cruel. If you reconsile she will hang this over your head forever as a threat that she can be gone and banging other men anytime she wants. She may just decide to come home and cake eat with these other guys on the side. Yes it is cheating.


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## unbelievable

Who she's with when she's 90 is more important than who she's chatting with today.


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## chaos

What makes you think that if she ends her affair and commits to R, that you won't be filled with extreme resentment towards her?


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## desperateguy

chaos said:


> What makes you think that if she ends her affair and commits to R, that you won't be filled with extreme resentment towards her?


That's my issue to deal with. If I can't deal with it, then I need to move on. But plenty of people here have successful post-affair marriages.


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## Entropy3000

desperateguy said:


> I take your point all. Let me play devil's advocate.
> 
> We've all seen cases - many cases - of people running off with an affair or whatever, and then after a few months having a change of heart. I'm not going to throw away 18 years and the future of our 2 kids that easily.
> 
> *And, I'm in Australia. No divorce till 12 months separation*.


Then work on yourself and cut her out of your life. Rather than doing what she is doing prepare yourself for a better life and a better woman.


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## Paladin

unbelievable said:


> Who she's with when she's 90 is more important than who she's chatting with today.


Who she is when she is 90, will not be desperateguy, who even when told by her directly that she is not interested in him, only wants to stick his head in the sand and attempt to rationalize her dysfunctional behavior as her "being emotional," further stripping her actions of their agency and marginalizing what she is doing.

@desperate: Why were you the one that moved out? Have you consulted with an attorney? Are you two 50/50 on the deed? Is she using community money to pay for membership on the site? 

Please look up the threads about "The Fog" and what it sometimes takes for people to come out of it.


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## desperateguy

This is a genuine question. I'm trying not to be defensive.

I am surprised by the reactions I'm getting here. This is a forum for coping with infidelity. We've all seen many people, often in their sigs, of people who have had an affair and reunited successfully. In general, those people who get through it have a better marriage than most.

So I honestly don't get it. Why are most people telling me to move on? I understand there's a time and place to move on, but none of those people who survived from an affair did it easily - they all went against the odds, put themselves out, risked their emotions, etc.


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## unbelievable

Because you aren't talking to the doctors. You're asking the wounded patients for advise.


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## warlock07

> Because you aren't talking to the doctors. You're asking the wounded patients for advise.


And you are a doctor? 

@desperateguy Let me ask you this. Why do you want to be with someone who does not care/respect about you? One way of coping with infidelity is moving on. You need to respect yourself first before moving on.


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## desperateguy

warlock07 said:


> And you are a doctor?
> 
> @desperateguy Let me ask you this. Why do you want to be with someone who does not care/respect about you? One way of coping with infidelity is moving on?


Because I believe it's only temporary. Call it an affair fog.


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## warlock07

By that logic, she can go have multiple affairs through out the marriage separating every time. yes, it(fog) might be temporary but read the stories of men over here that did that and were absolutely devastated in the end. Moving on is protecting yourself emotionally.


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## desperateguy

warlock07 said:


> By that logic, she can go have multiple affairs through out the marriage separating every time.


Do I REALLY need to point out the flaws in this argument? Come on, I thought people on this forum were a little smarter than that.


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## Paladin

desperateguy said:


> This is a genuine question. I'm trying not to be defensive.
> 
> I am surprised by the reactions I'm getting here. This is a forum for coping with infidelity. We've all seen many people, often in their sigs, of people who have had an affair and reunited successfully. In general, those people who get through it have a better marriage than most.
> 
> So I honestly don't get it. Why are most people telling me to move on? I understand there's a time and place to move on, but none of those people who survived from an affair did it easily - they all went against the odds, put themselves out, risked their emotions, etc.


Look, you've been on this site for how long now? Some of the people taking time out of their lives to post in this thread have been here a long time. In the _vast majority_ of the cases either the LS (loyal spouse) or the DS (disloyal spouse) are in a "fog" it takes drastic action to wake someone up.

No one is telling you to take this advice as gospel, you said you two separated so you could "work on yourselves" so I'm assuming you are seeing a counselor. Print up some of this stuff and run it by your IC (individual counselor)

I would also like you to post links and quotes that support your statement that the cases where R works and a new post affair relationship emerges, someone has to "put themselves out risk their emotions" I think if you really take a close read of the success stories, you will find that hard choices, and difficult action had to be taken to get things moving in the right direction. To have a *Post Affair* relationship, there has to be a post... meaning if she is still f*cking other men, no matter how hard you love her, there is no chance for R.

I saw someone on this site say "you cant nudge your DS out of the fog, you gotta hit em with a log" or something along those lines. The longer you tolerate your DS's dysfunctional behavior while she is living in your marital home and using community money to fund her new addiction, the less respect she will have for you, further degrading your chances for R (which she said she is not interested in) So you can continue to "not be defensive" by being defensive, or take some of this advice, bounce it off a professional, and come back and tell us what you chose to do.

You wanted to play devils advocate earlier in this thread, well how bout this:

your DS is desperately trying to get your attention, to recognize her actions as something more than her "being emotional" deep down inside she doesnt want to debase herself and piss all over her vows to you, but she doesnt think you are strong enough to hep her. Enabling her in any way, reenforces her fear. Acting, doing the hard thing, the thing that shows her you are capable of showing strength, is the only thing that has a chance at giving her the courage to admit that she f*cked up and reach out to you for help. She knows that it will take someone strong to help her, she does not see you as that someone right now.


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## warlock07

desperateguy said:


> Do I REALLY need to point out the flaws in this argument? Come on, I thought people on this forum were a little smarter than that.


Good luck


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## Paladin

desperateguy said:


> Do I REALLY need to point out the flaws in this argument? Come on, I thought people on this forum were a little smarter than that.


It really seems to me that you are looking for responses that fit what you want to hear. Just reply to your own questions with the appropriate answers and I'll copy and paste them in this thread.


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## desperateguy

Paladin said:


> your DS is desperately trying to get your attention, to recognize her actions as something more than her "being emotional" deep down inside she doesnt want to debase herself and piss all over her vows to you, but she doesnt think you are strong enough to hep her. Enabling her in any way, reenforces her fear. Acting, doing the hard thing, the thing that shows her you are capable of showing strength, is the only thing that has a chance at giving her the courage to admit that she f*cked up and reach out to you for help. She knows that it will take someone strong to help her, she does not see you as that someone right now.


Thanks, I found this useful.

I can see your point and am taking it on board. Sometimes being strong is right, sometimes being gentle is right, and frankly I have no idea which this is. But gentle hasn't worked. 

Yes, I'm seeing an individual counselor, and having some good success with that.


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## desperateguy

Paladin said:


> It really seems to me that you are looking for responses that fit what you want to hear. Just reply to your own questions with the appropriate answers and I'll copy and paste them in this thread.


Well let's see. If what he said is true, then NO couple would EVER recover from an affair. I'm interested in alternative views, but not ones that fail a basic test of logic.


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## Paladin

desperateguy said:


> Thanks, I found this useful.
> 
> I can see your point and am taking it on board. Sometimes being strong is right, sometimes being gentle is right, and frankly I have no idea which this is. But gentle hasn't worked.
> 
> Yes, I'm seeing an individual counselor, and having some good success with that.


None of this **** is easy in any way shape or form. Believe me, I understand what you are feeling right now, as do most (not all) of the responders to your thread. No one wants to see your relationship fail, reading your line about an 18 year marriage with kids made my eyes well up. Seeing you talk about your wife with love in your heart is even harder, because some of us see how deep in the fog she is, and how hard things will be for you. Some of the advice I got early on was so alien to me that I wanted to push it as far away as I could, but in the end, it was doing the hard thing (working really hard to let go) that gave me a foothold and helped my Partner reach out to me for help. Once that happens, the really hard work starts. Good Luck man, feel free to send a PM, I'm around.

-P


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## Paladin

I re-read what Warlock wrote, perhaps you just interpreted it in a particular way, let me translate:

You are trying to be supportive toward a person who violated the stated boundaries of your relationship and the implied terms of your temporary separation. Your support seems to include waiting for your wife to be finished with her affair and then moving forward. You have not, thus far, stated what the consequences of this breach of boundaries will be. If there are no consequences, then in a few years, when your wife again decides to be single for a while, she will know you will wait until she is done, and then reconcile. She will have no reason to respect the boundaries of the relationship, because when she disrespected them last, she got to have some fun, and then got to go back to her comfortable life with you.

There are clear consequences to the dysfunctional behaviors of the DS's in the successful post-affair relationships. The DS has to know, without a shadow of a doubt, that if they do it again, the LS will leave, taking all the history, comfort, safety, and love they offer with them. The only way to demonstrate to the DS that the LS is willing to do that, is by taking the steps to actually do that. Its counter intuitive at first, but makes sense later, trust me.


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## snap

desperateguy said:


> Well let's see. If what he said is true, then NO couple would EVER recover from an affair. I'm interested in alternative views, but not ones that fail a basic test of logic.


Don't argue the strawman, dude.

Just go and actually READ any of those reconciliation stories. It never happened due to a cuckold sitting out the affair in his corner. In all the cases the betrayed was actively killing the affair and giving the wayward some tough love. Yes, that includes filing for D.


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## Remains

desperateguy said:


> Well let's see. If what he said is true, then NO couple would EVER recover from an affair. I'm interested in alternative views, but not ones that fail a basic test of logic.


No! You are incorrect. 

Your wife is making it clear she has no interest in you, in recovery and reconcilliation, she desires other men, actively pursues them and puts herself out there to practically anyone who wants her. And she does this within 24 hours of you moving out (why did u move out? Get back in there and move her out (it was her who cheated wasn't it?) if she wanted out of the marriage and was willing to do what she did then YOU should NOT be making the sacrifices). When someone doesn't want you there is nothing more pathetic than them still pawing around your ankles like a lost puppy, especially when you keep kicking them in the teeth. 

Getting tough with her is not throwing your marriage away OR giving up on it. Ditching her (even though she has ditched you already) is not about giving up. It is about protecting you, AND the marriage. It is sending a clear message that this behaviour is UNACCEPTABLE. Since when were affairs and dating sites acceptable things in a marriage? 

By doing what you are doing, YOU are damaging the marriage by showing her she can do what she likes and you will be there still. You are enabling her to treat you like s*hit. And what about your children? YOU are damaging the marriage.

So...get tough and protect it. And protect you. And protect your children. If anything is going to make her stop and come back to you then getting tough and stop offering her your love to wipe her feet on will. When you have something regardless you take it for granted. When that thing goes you suddenly begin to appreciate it, miss it, kick yourself for taking it for granted, kick yourself for not appreciating it when you had it. And now it is gone! Devastation! 

Sort it out! Wet blankets are unnattractive. So are doormats. So are pathetic men who will take any sh*t you throw at them. Be strong and not a needy puppy.


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## lordmayhem

If you've bothered to read ANY of the successful R stories here, you would see that there are the four general requirements that are a must:

1. The WS ends contact forever with their affair partner. No contact means no contact means no contact.

2. The WS is truly remorseful for their actions, not just guilty for being caught. 

3. The WS is completely and willingly transparent to their BS because they truly want to earn and rebuild the trust that they destroyed.

4. The WS and the BS is 100% to saving and reconciling the marriage.

The first three requirements are the WS doing the heavy lifting to save the marriage. The BS also has to work on themselves too by changing their behaviors that led to the state of the marriage before the affair and learn to forgive their WS. EVEN then, R is still difficult under the best of circumstances.

This is your situation:

Your wife had an affair and you separated. Within 24 hours she's looking to date and boldy tells you that she wants to date other men. Then she boldly tells you she wants to bang a few of them. You even suspect that she already has and has a new OM. Your WW saw separation as her free pass to live the single life, no matter what you think about her or what she has said in the past. The facts are irrefutable. Instead of trying to save her marriage, your WW simply went completely the other way. 

*What you are to her is the back up plan*. The second stringer. That's all you are to her. In case her relationships fail, she knows you will take her back no matter what she does. You my friend, are a chump. You live in fear. There are many people here who have been married longer than you, including myself, who are willing to pull the trigger on D. I don't know about you, but I am NO ONE'S back up plan. What your WW is, is a classic cake eater. Coming from the saying, having their cake and eat it too. She wants the safety net of marriage, but continue to live the single life.










Your username exactly describes the phase that you're in: Desperation. When in this phase, you're willing to accept whatever crumbs your WW throws your way because you're desperate to save your marriage at any cost. 


What you're doing in your desperation is the classic mistake most BSs make, and that is rug sweeping. You want to sweep all her actions under the rug and wait out her affairs.










The problem with rug sweeping is that all it does is build up resentment. You will resent the fact that she got to live the single life, bang other men, made you a cuckold, and in the end you took her back with no repercussions whatsoever.

Another classic mistake you're making is that you cannot let her go. 










But hey, if you want to continue to be the back up plan, the second choice, then good luck with that. Now my arms hurting again from typing, so good luck.


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## jen1020

Hi desperateguy.

I'm very sorry to hear what you are going through.

I am currently separated from my husband. Since separation I have filed for divorce.

It looks to me like your wife is trying to find herself again, albeit going the wrong way about it by trying to find solutions with other men. She can only do that by looking at herself and she will figure that out eventually. Soon after I separated from my husband he registered on a dating site too - that hurt badly. His reasoning for it was that he wanted to have something to 'look forward to'. Again, I believe it is best to look inside yourself first, otherwise the same problems will follow you in to your next relationship.

Something you wrote jumped out at me:-

"The problem is, she is so emotional, has so much anger over stuff that happened during the marriage (nothing extreme, no beatings, just the usual stuff most people mess up, emotional neglect, etc etc) that she is irrational."

I was on the receiving end of my husband's bad moods, verbal abuse and emotional neglect for years. I wouldn't underestimate the damage it can cause and shrug it off as 'the usual stuff'. May I suggest that you perhaps take a second look at her grievance towards you more seriously and take steps to work on that? 

I wish you all the best.

Jen


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## desperateguy

jen1020 said:


> Hi desperateguy.
> I was on the receiving end of my husband's bad moods, verbal abuse and emotional neglect for years. I wouldn't underestimate the damage it can cause and shrug it off as 'the usual stuff'. May I suggest that you perhaps take a second look at her grievance towards you more seriously and take steps to work on that?


Hi Jen. 

Sorry you are going through a rough time.

I wasn't clear on that point for the sake of brevity. I absolutely 100% screwed up and hurt her, there is NO doubt about that and I fully own it. 

She screwed up a LOT as well, but that doesn't excuse my behavior.

I've been doing a lot of work on myself since the separation. I'm a much better man for it. She's paid the price to put me through school. Whether she gets the benefit of it or me, remains to be seen. 

I won't take her back unless she does some work on herself as well. There's a few issues which are deal breakers to me.


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## desperateguy

Thanks all for your advice. It might not seem like it, but I HAVE taken it on board. There's a lot of truth in here.

I knew it as some level but thinking about it more today, I have realised how much I am enabling her, and actually actively making her transition to divorce as easy for her as possible. She really does want her cake and to eat it to. 

So I'm having a good hard think, and talk with a few wise trusted friends and my counsellor, to consider my next steps.


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## warlock07

Paladin said:


> I re-read what Warlock wrote, perhaps you just interpreted it in a particular way, let me translate:
> 
> You are trying to be supportive toward a person who violated the stated boundaries of your relationship and the implied terms of your temporary separation. Your support seems to include waiting for your wife to be finished with her affair and then moving forward. You have not, thus far, stated what the consequences of this breach of boundaries will be. If there are no consequences, then in a few years, when your wife again decides to be single for a while, she will know you will wait until she is done, and then reconcile. She will have no reason to respect the boundaries of the relationship, because when she disrespected them last, she got to have some fun, and then got to go back to her comfortable life with you.
> 
> There are clear consequences to the dysfunctional behaviors of the DS's in the successful post-affair relationships. The DS has to know, without a shadow of a doubt, that if they do it again, the LS will leave, taking all the history, comfort, safety, and love they offer with them. The only way to demonstrate to the DS that the LS is willing to do that, is by taking the steps to actually do that. Its counter intuitive at first, but makes sense later, trust me.


Thanks for typing that out Paladin. That is what I meant


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## lovelygirl

desperateguy said:


> So I honestly don't get it. Why are most people telling me to move on? .


Instead of working on herself and trying to figure out how to get back with you, she chose to date other men and open her legs to some of them.
I think that's enough of a reason why you should move on. 

Seperation was her lame excuse and laying ground work to end things with you in a softer way.


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## jen1020

desperateguy said:


> I've been doing a lot of work on myself since the separation. I'm a much better man for it. She's paid the price to put me through school. Whether she gets the benefit of it or me, remains to be seen.
> 
> I won't take her back unless she does some work on herself as well. There's a few issues which are deal breakers to me.


Hi desperateguy

Then you are doing all you can - as you say even if your relationship does not work out, you, your children and any future relationship will reap the benefits anyway.

Best wishes

Jen


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## snap

How did you learn about the dating sites? Did she tell you, or you discovered yourself?

That she did it within 24 hours sounds fishy. Normally there would be someone lined on already in situation like that.


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## desperateguy

I discovered it. She knows I know. 

No, I'm 100% sure there was no one lined up. I'm also quite sure, despite what everyone here says, that she didn't plan it. One of many reasons I believe that is that I initiated the separation.


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## chaos

Why are you fighting for the love of a woman who does not want you as her husband anymore? So what if you've been married for 18 years? You initiated the separation because you could no longer stand living with her so that in and of itself is very telling that she was deficient as a wife. Stop pining for a woman who no longer loves you nor wants you and is trying to replace you. Let go and move on wirh your life.


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## Count of Monte Cristo

desperateguy said:


> I really honestly believe it wasn't her plan. Call me delusional, but I don't think so, *I know her*, and I also know of stuff she said to others.



Everyone on this site thought that they knew their wayward spouse. When my wife moved out, I hardly recognized the sweet lovable woman that I married 19 years ago.

In her place was a cold and distant facsimile of her former self. A doppelganger, so to speak. A woman who willingly gave up her two kids, her dream home, and her pets.

So, while you think you might know your wife -- you really don't know this person. 24 hours of separation and she was already trolling dating sites for friends with benefits? This was planned on her part. She wanted some fresh meat. (Don't mean to be so graphic but I'm trying to get you out of your fog.)

By the way, it takes two to make a marriage. In your case, your wife has already told you that she does not want to reconcile. She's checked out. Gone.

If she does come back, it's only because you are her back up plan. And she'll be gone again in the not too distant future.


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## LeslieH

My H and I are separating for a month and a 1/2. It's only been 2 weeks since dday and I'm finding it very hard to stay focused on him. I don't have a wandering eye, but that dopamine rush is sorely missed. I think your wife is craving some form of validation, physical touch being a big one of those. I'm pretty depressed right now, fighting for a relationship with a person that at this stage still resents me. Every conversation focuses on my deficiencies and flaws...but these are necessary. I would do anything to just hold the guy's hand, but he won't let me touch him. I think he may have said one pleasant thing to me since dday and it was regarding our dog. So I can understand how she would be tempted to look elsewhere for validation and physical touch, but even to me, 24 hours is waaaay too fast!

I think I can understand her thinking, but she is going about everything all wrong. Is she in therapy as well? Does she even want to R?


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## Entropy3000

desperateguy said:


> Because I believe it's only temporary. Call it an affair fog.


What you describe is someone who willingly sought men on dating sights. She was not in a fog then. This is not a friendship that got too close. She was seeking intimacy and sex with other men before any dopamine kicked in. 

That is the difference. She willfully sought out to be unfaithful and cheat within hours of leaving you. Which means it was planned.

Kinda the difference between man slaughter and premeditated murder. There is a difference of intent.

It sounds as much like she could not wait to 1) begin her life and 2) hurt you.


----------



## Entropy3000

desperateguy said:


> Well let's see. If what he said is true, then NO couple would EVER recover from an affair. I'm interested in alternative views, but not ones that fail a basic test of logic.


It was not logical for you to move out and enable this activity. So there has already been a FAIL of logic. This was a huge mistake. So far your logic has you in a situation where your wife is dating and having sex with other men. You seem to want to press an agenda instead of get advice on how to cope. Coping does not mean putting up with an affair. It is how to deal with it. She left you. Folks are trying to help you cope with this. Sometimes coping does involve reconsiliation.


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## desperateguy

I know you think I'm delusional. I just absolutely 100% refuse to believe it was planned. *I* initiated the separation. 

I'm not saying that lack of planning excuses her behavior, it doesn't. If it was "planned" it was no more than a few days in advance.

It was a reaction to emotions, to neglect, to feeling empty. A very inappropriate reaction. I know for sure it wasn't planned. Some close friends of hers who don't approve of her behavior have passed me information, shown me emails, etc. I never believed it was planned, and the stuff they showed me confirms that even more.

She wasn't dopamine or an affair fog. She was after validation (something I did badly in the last few years). She wanted to feel desirable, to feel valued by a man. She had become to doubt herself as a woman and wanted to feel that way. I think at some level we all, guys and girls, can relate to that feeling - we want to be wanted. We mostly don't choose such an inappropriate reaction, but most/all of us have had those feelings. 

But you are welcome to believe what you want.


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## In_The_Wind

I feel that its hard to work on a marriage if you are separted thats kinda like a hall pass in a way jmo


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## desperateguy

Entropy3000 said:


> It was not logical for you to move out and enable this activity. So there has already been a FAIL of logic. This was a huge mistake. So far your logic has you in a situation where you wife is dating and having sex with other men. You seem to want to press an agenda instead of get advice on how to cope. Coping does not mean putting up with an affair. It is how to deal with it. She left you.


Again, not reading my posts. I left her. She started this AFTER I moved out. We had an agreement pre-separation, negotiated with a counsellor we both trusted. She threw out that agreement post-separation. 

I have spent most of the night planning a more drastic approach to pop her bubble. To confront her. So I have listened to the advice. Again, I've said this. 

I guess it's your choice to attack someone while they are at their lowest point in their life. It could be that your meaning is 100% right. But regardless of how right or not you are, very few people in the world are going to respond well to the tone you are taking. But if attacking people at their lowest makes you happy, I'm here for you. Go for it!


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## Entropy3000

desperateguy said:


> I know you think I'm delusional. I just absolutely 100% refuse to believe it was planned. *I* initiated the separation.
> 
> I'm not saying that lack of planning excuses her behavior, it doesn't. If it was "planned" it was no more than a few days in advance.
> 
> It was a reaction to emotions, to neglect, to feeling empty. A very inappropriate reaction. I know for sure it wasn't planned. Some close friends of hers who don't approve of her behavior have passed me information, shown me emails, etc. I never believed it was planned, and the stuff they showed me confirms that even more.
> 
> She wasn't dopamine or an affair fog. She was after validation (something I did badly in the last few years). She wanted to feel desirable, to feel valued by a man. She had become to doubt herself as a woman and wanted to feel that way. I think at some level we all, guys and girls, can relate to that feeling - we want to be wanted. We mostly don't choose such an inappropriate reaction, but most/all of us have had those feelings.
> 
> But you are welcome to believe what you want.


By definition a deluded person does not beleive they are delusional. You also refuse to believe ... that is denial. 

But again it does not matter. You know she was on dating sites within 24 hours. You know she wants to have sex with mutlitple guys. You know she already has a boyfriend. Let her go.


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## desperateguy

Entropy3000 said:


> By definition a deluded person does not beleive they are delusional. You also refuse to believe ... that id denial.


You would have fit in well at the witch hunts at Salem!

She denies she's a witch? She must be a witch!

Nice to see you are also attacking someone at the lowest point in their life. I'm open to new ideas, but presenting them as an attack is, in my experience, generally not the best communication tactic.


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## Entropy3000

desperateguy said:


> Again, not reading my posts. I left her. She started this AFTER I moved out. We had an agreement pre-separation, negotiated with a counsellor we both trusted. She threw out that agreement post-separation.
> 
> I have spent most of the night planning a more drastic approach to pop her bubble. To confront her. So I have listened to the advice. Again, I've said this.
> 
> I guess it's your choice to attack someone while they are at their lowest point in their life. It could be that your meaning is 100% right. But regardless of how right or not you are, very few people in the world are going to respond well to the tone you are taking. But if attacking people at their lowest makes you happy, I'm here for you. Go for it!


I read your posts. I know you left. That was the huge mistake I am referring to. Not logical at all.

It's called tough love buddy. No one is attacking you.

Realize that you are in a fog.

I have no joy in your troubles. We are trying to reach you.

You are in a very tough situation. You helped enable it. Sorry you listened to that counselor. Counseling is not always about saving a marriage. Sometimes it is about helping folks go their separate ways.


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## Entropy3000

desperateguy said:


> You would have fit in well at the witch hunts at Salem!
> 
> She denies she's a witch? She must be a witch!
> 
> Nice to see you are also attacking someone at the lowest point in their life. I'm open to new ideas, but presenting them as an attack is, in my experience, generally not the best communication tactic.


Not attacking you. But since you wish to argue I will not waste my time on you any longer.

Sincerely good luck.


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## that_girl

Did you just want to be coddled, OP?


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## desperateguy

I appreciate your help. But I'm finding it hard to see 

"By definition a deluded person does not beleive they are delusional. You also refuse to believe ... that id denial. " as anything other than a self fulfilling statement. 

Again, you didn't read. I didn't listen to the counsellor. WE approached the counsellor to help us negotiate the way we could have a successful trial separation. 
"We had an agreement pre-separation, negotiated with a counsellor we both trusted. "

So my wife and I had an agreement. I left on the basis of that. Maybe I screwed up leaving, I'm open to that, but that is done, too late to change that, so I'm looking at what I can do now. 

The reason we separated is we had been in a rut so long, we basically were blind to our own problems, but we could see we were(if that makes sense? twisted logic) and so needed the space. 

Again, maybe that was a stupid idea. I don't know. It was a desperation measure, and clearly has backfired.


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## snap

Yes, there must be something we're missing.


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## desperateguy

Entropy3000 said:


> Not attacking you. But since you wish to argue I will not waste my time on you any longer.
> 
> Sincerely good luck.


Best post you've made so far


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## desperateguy

that_girl said:


> Did you just want to be coddled, OP?


No. Again, for the.... fourth time...? I'm taking the advice on board. 

But this IS tough advice. It's against most peoples natural instincts - or at least mine. So I am after help exploring it, but finding it very hard when I feel am being attacked. 

So maybe I'm not picking up the concepts instantly, they are hard concepts to pick up!


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## TDSC60

Since the separation was a mutual agreement to give you both time to "work on yourselves" and the ground rules were mutually agreed upon prior to separation, yes it is cheating. You do not work on a stale marriage or yourself by dating and having sex with other people. She agreed to the rules of separation and then proceeded to burn the agreement as soon as she was free.

It does not matter who initiated the separation. She is using it a permission to date and f*ck around. Speak to your attorney not the MC.


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## that_girl

You feel attacked because you are still in your delusion and we know it.

No one here means you any harm. No one here wants to eff up your life with bad advice.

Promise.


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## bryanp

If the roles were reversed and after your agreed upon separation you engaged in dating sites and engaged in sexual affairs with other women, how do you think your wife would be reacting to you? You judge people by their actions and her actions speak volume. She disrespected you and your marriage. If you do not respect yourself then who will?

In addition, allowing her to continue with her sexual activities sends a message that you are willing to accept this type of behavior from her. No consequences to her actions equals no motivation to change. I wish you luck.


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## desperateguy

snap said:


> Yes, there must be something we're missing.


Maybe there is.

This is what I don't understand.

This is a forum on infidelity. The dominant subject is BS working out how to get their WS back. That's my situation. 

It's also pretty common for the WS to say they want to leave, to divorce, etc. That's also my situation. 

But there's many discussions here about how to turn around the WS, when all those points above are true.

So I don't get why people are just saying to divorce to me, but talking about how to win them back to others. 

I don't see how my situation is that much different from the others here, how my situation neccessiates divorce. Sure in time if nothing changes, of course it does. 

No, she doesn't want to reconcile - but that's common for a WS (I believe). She's in an affair fog. But my understanding is that passes - or can sometimes be "popped" by drastic action. 

Obviously there are no guarantees, it is ultimately up to the WS to change, to repent, to cut off contact, etc, etc. Not at that stage yet.

And yes, I've screwed up. But so has pretty much every BS.

So what I don't get is why people are saying divorce to me? What's different?


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## desperateguy

bryanp said:


> In addition, allowing her to continue with her sexual activities sends a message that you are willing to accept this type of behavior from her. No consequences to her actions equals no motivation to change. I wish you luck.


Yeah, I'm realising that. I'm working on that now. Thanks for this. It's a tough pill to swallow. There's a lot of advice out there that's contradictory and so it's a balancing act. Is plan A better than plan B?


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## that_girl

No, this site isn't about getting a spouse back. It's about accepting reality and taking care of oneself. It's about surviving infidelity but keeping your spine.

 

So right now, then do nothing. Do what you feel is best. But don't sleep with her. And get checked for STDs.


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## snap

Well, let's think about it logically  There are two possibilities for that:

a) Everyone is against you
b) You don't (or won't) understand the very nature of advice given to other BS.

TAM has always been about "tough love", and it's the kind of advice given to everyone here. Statistically, it's about the only approach out there that works. So no, you are not special.

You bust the affair (expose), you cut off the WS (distance your self, financially and emotionally). This put the stress of reality to their fantasy life in affair, and it often crumbles.


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## TDSC60

desperateguy said:


> Maybe there is.
> 
> This is what I don't understand.
> 
> This is a forum on infidelity. The dominant subject is BS working out how to get their WS back. That's my situation.
> 
> It's also pretty common for the WS to say they want to leave, to divorce, etc. That's also my situation.
> 
> But there's many discussions here about how to turn around the WS, when all those points above are true.
> 
> So I don't get why people are just saying to divorce to me, but talking about how to win them back to others.
> 
> I don't see how my situation is that much different from the others here, how my situation neccessiates divorce. Sure in time if nothing changes, of course it does.
> 
> No, she doesn't want to reconcile - but that's common for a WS (I believe). She's in an affair fog. But my understanding is that passes - or can sometimes be "popped" by drastic action.
> 
> Obviously there are no guarantees, it is ultimately up to the WS to change, to repent, to cut off contact, etc, etc. Not at that stage yet.
> 
> And yes, I've screwed up. But so has pretty much every BS.
> 
> So what I don't get is why people are saying divorce to me? What's different?


Filing divorce is the drastic action that can "pop" the fantasy bubble. Divorce can take awhile and can be stopped at anytime during the process. Hopefully your wife will be one of those who comes around when the reality of divorce is dropped in her lap in the form of tangible papers.

Now that she has a taste of the single life divorce may be what she wants. If it is, delaying it will do you no good and will not help the situation.

This is why folks are saying file the papers. It is a huge reality check for the WS.


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## Shaggy

Ok, yes she is cheating. You had an agreement not to see others and now she is seeing others. that is cheating.

so stop the debate.

Now, you do seem to want to find some get out of jail loophole that makes her choosing to cheat OK some how. Well there isn't one. She made a choice - it's a selfish and hurt choice - and it violated the terms of both your marriage and separation.


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## that_girl

Yea. ....if she knows you're just waiting there for her to come around, she'll do this forever.


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## In_The_Wind

desperateguy said:


> Maybe there is.
> 
> This is what I don't understand.
> 
> This is a forum on infidelity. The dominant subject is BS working out how to get their WS back. That's my situation.
> 
> It's also pretty common for the WS to say they want to leave, to divorce, etc. That's also my situation.
> 
> But there's many discussions here about how to turn around the WS, when all those points above are true.
> 
> So I don't get why people are just saying to divorce to me, but talking about how to win them back to others.
> 
> I don't see how my situation is that much different from the others here, how my situation neccessiates divorce. Sure in time if nothing changes, of course it does.
> 
> No, she doesn't want to reconcile - but that's common for a WS (I believe). She's in an affair fog. But my understanding is that passes - or can sometimes be "popped" by drastic action.
> 
> Obviously there are no guarantees, it is ultimately up to the WS to change, to repent, to cut off contact, etc, etc. Not at that stage yet.
> 
> And yes, I've screwed up. But so has pretty much every BS.
> 
> So what I don't get is why people are saying divorce to me? What's different?


Maybe because after all the counseling and the formal written agreement she broke that immediately probably before the ink was even dry 

If this is what you want then by all means go for it its your marriage  my question is why be with someone who continues to lie and cheat ?? Their are alot of decent other woman out there that would not behave this way start working on yourself and taking care of you its all about what your willing to put up with if her behaviors are ok with you then why are yall separted why did you want to leave in the first place ??


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## desperateguy

snap said:


> You bust the affair (expose), you cut off the WS (distance your self, financially and emotionally). This put the stress of reality to their fantasy life in affair, and it often crumbles.


You are saying this. Others are saying straight to divorce. Which one is it? Yours seems far more constructive. 

I like your approach because, no, I'm not ready to give up yet. She's done some bad stuff, but I do love her, and want to be with her and the kids. I've seen people come back from worse than this and have successful marriages. 

FYI, what you've described is loosely the plan I'm working on. I've spent a lot of time today looking at the ways I've actually been enabling her. I'm working out the best way to pull them out from under her feet, in a way that will be a SHOCK to her. She will NOT be a happy camper. Part of that is me withdrawing. Remove myself as the safety net, the plan B. Then just sit back and watch the fireworks  It'll probably polarise things, force her in or out. Either way is better than being strung along. I either get her back (assuming she repents, etc, and gets her stuff together, that's a whole other process), or get to move on with my life without her. 

So thanks to this thread, I am working on this radically different and more... drastic? approach. 

Emotional distance is hard, as I'm sure you know. I'm making progress, but I suspect that is just a slow process.


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## desperateguy

that_girl said:


> Yea. ....if she knows you're just waiting there for her to come around, she'll do this forever.


Yes, I'm realising this, but thanks for confirming it. I'm planning to remove her safety net, to stop being her plan B. How she reacts... we'll see.


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## Rmommy22

First, lets answer the question...Yes it is an affair. You both had set up and agreed to terms before the seperation. For her to CHOOSE to look at dating sites within a day of that seperation means she was actively choosing to cheat. She does not have respect for you or your marriage. 

Is it worthwhile to still try to reconcile? That is up to you...I would still say that the typical steps have to be followed to start; the affair must be exposed, she must go NC, and you both must actively work on reconciliation. Starting divorce proceeedings if she does not agree with that will usually bring about one of two outcome; she flips and realizes that she wants to reconcile (in which case you can both start working on it), or she decides that divorce is what she really wants. If it is the second, then you are better off knowing what is coming and learning to take care of yourself alone, not being desperate to gain her affection.

The problem is that she has made it abundantly clear that she wants to be with other people. It does not matter if it is because she is reacting to emotional stress in the marriage or other issues. It comes down to the fact that she is still making a CHOICE. Her choice is to throw away your relationship for other people. You can take blame for some problems in the marriage, but stop acting like you can take on some of the blame for her choosing to have an affair. You can not change that, you can expose and talk, but she will make the ultimate choice on what she is willing to do.


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## snap

Well, my initial (maybe mistaken) impression was that you intend to sit the affair out. Perhaps the others felt the same vibe.

This approach is not popular here, mainly because it was demonstrated to not work.

BTW I'm all up for filing. I am in R now, but it took exactly that to snap her out and stop this insanity. Wish I did it earlier.


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## SadSamIAm

She cheated. I am sure your separation agreement that you negotiated with the help of a counselor must have stipulated that neither of you are to see anyone else. She cheated.

The typical advice when someone cheats is to look at the actions of the cheater. Are they remorseful? Will they be transparent with their phone, email, etc? Do they show that they value the marriage and are willing to work on it with counseling or whatever?

If they aren't remorseful and won't discontinue the affair, the advice is to expose the affair. Tell her family, your family the other man's wife, etc. Also, to file for divorce. To make the spouse realize that cheating in the marriage will never be tolerated.

Often, exposing causes the OM to leave the affair so he doesn't lose his marriage. This will sometimes break the fog as the cheater realizes she was just being used. Not sure I would like this happening as I would always feel like I was the second choice.

Often, filing for divorce will break the fog. The cheater sees the reality of the situation they are in (finances, family, etc.). They realize they can't cake eat. Not sure I would like this either as I would feel that I blackmailed her into staying.

I think the best chance for reconciliation is to actually separate for a period of time. For the wife to actually live with their decision. To see what it is like with life without you. Hopefully they realize they truly love you and show true remorse and earn your love.


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## desperateguy

Sitting out was my initial approach. But I wasn't convinced it was right, thus posting here. 

Filing doesn't work here. We are 3 months in, here, you can't file for 12 months. However, I can make noises about it - eg consulting a lawyer (which I have done), which is hopefully the next best thing,


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## that_girl

And start the 180.

It's counter-intuitive but will help you detach a bit and will make you respect yourself more in the long run.


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## daisygirl 41

Even though you keep on saying she started cheating AFTER you moved out, it was only 24hrs later so I'm sorry but it just sounds like she was just waiting for you to move out. Sounds like she must have checked out way before the actual seperation.
Why did you move out? Did she put you in an impossible situation where you had no choice?
Sorry you are going through this. I've been through a year of hell, I didn't want to hear the truth either but you know what? Everyone here is just trying to help you and many of us are scarred from infidelity and it's just crap! BUT there is no way on earth that she wasn't thinking about dating other men before you left if it only took her 24 hrs to start looking!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SRN

desperateguy said:


> I really honestly believe it wasn't her plan. Call me delusional, but I don't think so, I know her, and I also know of stuff she said to others.
> 
> Regardless, it is what it is.
> 
> Is exposure a legitimate tactic? People will be less sympathetic - "she is separated, she can do what she wants".


I haven't read through the whole thread yet, BUT... You're delusional. Let me share a bit of my experience:

Wife wanted a divorce, we agreed to separate for three months. She told me that she would continue to consider me as her husband while we worked through things. That she would think long and hard about "us". She told friends that she was going to have an open mind about me, but that she needed space.
Turns out she had very likely been sleeping with a guy from work at the tale end of the time we lived together, and _definately_ was doing it the week after she moved into her new place! She never had _any_ intention of thinking about saving our marriage! She wanted out so that she could start f*cking this other guy free of guilt. Real class act.
You're wife wanted to get out so that she could "explore" options. 24 hours, dude! _24_ hours! WTF? Expose it, file for divorce and start moving on with your life. It's one of the hardest things you'll ever do, but stop kidding yourself, your marriage is over. Start acting like it before you get decimated emotionally like so many of us did.


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## Saffron

Sorry for what you're going through Desperateguy and I hope you take to heart a lot of what has been posted on this thread and site when dealing with infidelity. Now to your situation . . .

Your wife did plan to join the dating sites, it may have been 1 hour before or 1 week, but she knew what she was doing when she signed up. Before doing so she could've called you and said she did not want the separation. She could've warned you a separation meant she was going to date other men. She made the decision to date other men, who knows when, but she made the decision and kept it from you. It doesn't really matter when she decided to date other guys, the problem is she did it and knew it went against the terms of your separation agreement. It's possible she was harboring resentment about your suggestion of a separation and this was her way of getting back at you. Regardless of her motivation, she's enjoying this new lifestyle and doesn't want to give it up.

Therein lies the problem for R. Your wife most likely feels justified in dating other men and is probably holding your suggestion of a separation against you. Doesn't matter if she agreed, she'll re-write histroy to suite her needs. She's also most likely using every negative thing you've ever done in the past to fuel her justification to date other men.

R can only work if both the WS and BS want to make the marriage work. If my H still wanted to boink his AP after d-day, I would've filed for D. I can't rebuild a marriage while he's emotionally invested elsewhere. I wouldn't have waited for him to "find himself" either. On d-day it was him asking me to consider R and the only way I could was if he did everything I needed to heal. NC with his AP from that moment on was a must.

I'm sorry but I agree with posters that say you should file for D. Your wife needs a wake up call that her actions have consequences. I'm over a year past d-day and it still pi$$es me off that my H had the opportunity to experience the emotional high and sex from a new relationship. Getting past this in our R will be extremely difficult, but it'd be impossible if he had done this fully knowing I was aware of his behavior while he did it. Your wife is willfully and knowingly throwing you and your 18 year marriage away, makes R that much more difficult if she ever comes around.

Will she ever come around and want R on her own? Perhaps, but most likely for the wrong reasons. The security your 18 year marriage offers will become appealing again once she's dumped by a new guy she's really into. She'll turn to you when the single life no longer has the appeal of a shiny gold coin, however it wouldn't be you she's choosing, just security. 

The problem with trying to R after this scenario, you'll always feel like the back-up plan. How can you rebuild trust when you know you were not her first choice. If your wife still secretly thinks there is someone else out there better for her, she'll keep herself open to the possibilities. Not dating sites, but perhaps a "friendship" that could lead to an exit affair. If she doesn't choose you, her loyalities are not with you, just herself.

Tread carefully and protect yourself. You can not change the way someone feels, you can only change yourself. If she wants to live the single life, then let her live it in all ways financially and emotionally. Focus on moving forward for you and your kids, I wish you all the best.


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## Machiavelli

Okay, Desperate, I'm getting the idea that you want your wife back, even though you said back in your first post in March that she's banging multiple guys. The odds of getting her back are very slim, but let me try to provide some pertinent info and observations. 

Your wife is pissed because you moved out. You are the one who wanted the separation. She sees that as abandonment. She came around to your way of thinking, only in spades. Now she's addicted to strange c•ck and lots of it. She's not using rubbers either, since semen is full of mood and libido elevating chemicals like testosterone. Read the following:

Semen acts as an anti-depressant - 26 June 2002 - New Scientist

Attention, Ladies: Semen Is An Antidepressant | Psychology Today

This above is why when crabby single women come into the office on Monday morning and they're all smiles, you know they've been well banged over the weekend. There was truth behind the old saying, "she must have gotten laid this weekend."

Even more than that, consider the brain chemistry released in a woman's body when she has sex with a new guy. Read this:

The Brain in Love and Lust

When you moved out, your wife was pissed off and depressed. She is treating her depression with doses of semen and dopamine from numerous sources. Your wife is high as a kite. Incidentally, who watches the kids when she's with her men? Do they spend the night at your place with your wife?

Also, the fact that she was hooking up, or trying to, on dating sites within 24 hours of your leaving means she was already thinking about it, or even already looking.

What this means for you is that you were a downer to her already, then you walked out. In her eyes, you have zero sexual attraction and haven't for a long time. Right now, she's having her fill of men and their mood elevating essence. The fact that she's doing this right in your face makes it all the more sweet to her. There's no way for you to compete with that sexually.

Your only hope is that when she sees you moving on, she'll have a moment of clarity in her sex crazed mind and want to keep the family together. You have to be willing to burn the village to save it. However, in this case you already lit the thatch and your wife poured gasoline on it.


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## Thorburn

Look I got beat up pretty good at first. Folks told me I was in denial, I hated it, felt attacked, they were right. I stuck here on TAM and am getting good help. I did not follow advice and it hurt me. I drank hard, I let my anger get out of control and now I became the bad guy and I own it.

I am going to give you a little case history of a young client I had in therapy. His life is a mess. Got kicked out of the Marines for a drug charge. He is a combat Veteran who got wounded. Got hooked on pain pills. his wife stuck by him while he sat in prison. He got kicked out (in my opinion rightfully so). his wife stuck by him again. They had no money and a kid. He went to his wife and said "let's separate", she did not want it. He said he is depressed and she should not be around him. She wanted to help him. he forced the separation. Having no money he moved in with his dad and she moved in with her mother. Bad move. She got from him by words and action that he does not want to be with her, after all she did for him. She found someone else. He saw her with him and went nuts, begging her, pleading with her. He got really drunk and called me and then I had to have him committed after he threatened suicide.

This is just one case. But separation is rarely a good thing. I don't care how awful you were in the marriage. When you pushed separation you basically told you wife you do not want to be around her. She looked elsewhere. I believe you are correct in that this was not her intent (who knows), but I will tell you that it takes one minute, of her being alone, after you or her moved out, to look elsewhere after being told that you do not want to be with her. Because whether you want to admit it or not that is what you told her and is what you did.

When i was stationed overseas in the 70's all my Christian friends who were serving with me (who were married) got divorced. There were about 8 guys I hung out with. Most shared an apartment (downtown) but a few lived in the dorm with me. In the evening we would hang out in the apartment. Everyone of them could have taken a two year tour and brought their families with them. None did. They opted for the short one year tour. It was rough. I was held hostage, saw a guy next to me get his brains blown out, the country was in turmoil and there we were (not in a war zone), in the midst of this. The guys all opted for the short tour because they did not want to bring their families into a hostile situation. But during the separation everyone of their "Christian" wives cheated (all 8 of them). I developed a theory as a young man at that time. That all 8 of my friends told their wives that they do not want them (I could be completely off base). If they did, they would have brought them along and all 8 could have done so. This tour in the 70's (I was single) have shaped my view of what separation can do in a marriage. 

Do you think she would have done what she did if you did not separate? 

Most of the folks here on TAM will help you. You will not agree with everything but even the ignorant ones will give you some pause to think. The easiest reply is "D the skank", or something along those lines.

The quickest way to work on your marriage is get you both under the same roof. Separation is not good in your case. Get her back if you want this to work.


----------



## razorsedge

I am going to be blunt. Yes it is an affair when separated. She found someone or wants someone else. She wants to boink other people. I know it hurts to hear this, but she has told you in her own words.

You sound like I did almost 17 years ago. I was "desperate" to believe my wife wanted to work on things. I think I was the backup plan. She in fact told me she did not want me, but did not want anyone else to have me either. I think she was in the fog. 

I went though months of begging, crying, pleading, etc for her to stay with me. You know when she wanted to come back??? When I grew my balls back dude. I stopped talking to her about EVERYTHING except our kids. I started moving on. I figured out it was over. After a few weeks of me being a MAN, she started coming out of the fog (or she figured out it would not work out with the other dude who she never admitted to lol. Idk, perhaps she got dumped lol). At any rate, she came back, we are still together but I think I was the backup plan. Some things going on with me right now she is not aware of, but thats another story. Do not end up like me and always wonder if you were the "runner up". 

On a side not, when we got back together, she later told me that all my begging, chasing, crying was a big TURN OFF to her.

I will NEVER be so weak and pathetic again. I guess I did the 180 before I even knew what a 180 was. It was not to get her to come back though, it was for ME. I needed to be a man dude. That's what you need to do.

I have told and taught my sons NOT TO CHASE when a girl dumps them. I do not want them doing the weak puppy dog act. It will not and does not work. Gotta go. I am starting to trigger lol.


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## Machiavelli

desperateguy said:


> I've spent a lot of time today looking at the ways I've actually been enabling her. I'm working out the best way to pull them out from under her feet, in a way that will be a SHOCK to her. She will NOT be a happy camper. Part of that is me withdrawing. Remove myself as the safety net, the plan B. Then just sit back and watch the fireworks :


This is good. Was your separation legal or just something you guys cooked up informally? If the latter, move back into the house yesterday. This will dump big snow on her campfire. Kill the internet, cell plan, etc.

Does your state have legal sep and is it a requirement for divorce?


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## KanDo

desperateguy said:


> Sitting out was my initial approach. But I wasn't convinced it was right, thus posting here.
> 
> Filing doesn't work here. We are 3 months in, here, you can't file for 12 months. However, I can make noises about it - eg consulting a lawyer (which I have done), which is hopefully the next best thing,


Talk to that lawyer again. It was my understanding that infidelity waived the 1 year separation requirement.


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## Tall Average Guy

You are getting some great advice here, but wanted to emphasize a couple of things:



desperateguy said:


> This is a forum on infidelity. The dominant subject is BS working out how to get their WS back. That's my situation.


No, the dominant subject is about taking care of the BS. By doing that, sometimes the marriage can be saved. But it is about helping the BS set boundaries, keep their self respect, and take care of themselves.



> So I don't get why people are just saying to divorce to me, but talking about how to win them back to others.


Because divorce is easy to stop and nothing states a boundary like telling her you don't want her anymore due to her actions.



> I don't see how my situation is that much different from the others here, how my situation neccessiates divorce. Sure in time if nothing changes, of course it does.


Its not. You are not really getting any advice that others have not gotten as well.



> No, she doesn't want to reconcile - but that's common for a WS (I believe). She's in an affair fog. But my understanding is that passes - or can sometimes be "popped" by drastic action.


Like divorce?


----------



## Entropy3000

Thorburn said:


> Look I got beat up pretty good at first. Folks told me I was in denial, I hated it, felt attacked, they were right. I stuck here on TAM and am getting good help. I did not follow advice and it hurt me. I drank hard, I let my anger get out of control and now I became the bad guy and I own it.
> 
> I am going to give you a little case history of a young client I had in therapy. His life is a mess. Got kicked out of the Marines for a drug charge. He is a combat Veteran who got wounded. Got hooked on pain pills. his wife stuck by him while he sat in prison. He got kicked out (in my opinion rightfully so). his wife stuck by him again. They had no money and a kid. He went to his wife and said "let's separate", she did not want it. He said he is depressed and she should not be around him. She wanted to help him. he forced the separation. Having no money he moved in with his dad and she moved in with her mother. Bad move. She got from him by words and action that he does not want to be with her, after all she did for him. She found someone else. He saw her with him and went nuts, begging her, pleading with her. He got really drunk and called me and then I had to have him committed after he threatened suicide.
> 
> This is just one case. But separation is rarely a good thing. I don't care how awful you were in the marriage. When you pushed separation you basically told you wife you do not want to be around her. She looked elsewhere. I believe you are correct in that this was not her intent (who knows), but I will tell you that it takes one minute, of her being alone, after you or her moved out, to look elsewhere after being told that you do not want to be with her. Because whether you want to admit it or not that is what you told her and is what you did.
> 
> When i was stationed overseas in the 70's all my Christian friends who were serving with me (who were married) got divorced. There were about 8 guys I hung out with. Most shared an apartment (downtown) but a few lived in the dorm with me. In the evening we would hang out in the apartment. Everyone of them could have taken a two year tour and brought their families with them. None did. They opted for the short one year tour. It was rough. I was held hostage, saw a guy next to me get his brains blown out, the country was in turmoil and there we were (not in a war zone), in the midst of this. The guys all opted for the short tour because they did not want to bring their families into a hostile situation. But during the separation everyone of their "Christian" wives cheated (all 8 of them). I developed a theory as a young man at that time. That all 8 of my friends told their wives that they do not want them (I could be completely off base). If they did, they would have brought them along and all 8 could have done so. This tour in the 70's (I was single) have shaped my view of what separation can do in a marriage.
> 
> Do you think she would have done what she did if you did not separate?
> 
> Most of the folks here on TAM will help you. You will not agree with everything but even the ignorant ones will give you some pause to think. The easiest reply is "D the skank", or something along those lines.
> 
> The quickest way to work on your marriage is get you both under the same roof. Separation is not good in your case. Get her back if you want this to work.


This touches home with me having been in the Navy for eight years back in the 70s.

Many of the women felt their husbands abandoned them. Many of the sailors would come to me with letters from their young and devoted wives. Most of these young sailors were indeed completely faithful and devoted to their wives. 

On their first major cruise a couple of these guys found out their wives went out dancing at the O club on the very day we were to ship out. We did not ship out. I called my wife. She picked us up. The sailors were unable to contact their wives. We brought them to thier apartments. Their kids were being watched by a neighbor. The wives turned out to be wingwomen and had gone out seeking other men the very first night of a six month cruise.

Later these women kept sending letters about feeling abandoned and that they craved male attention and were dating other men. Both were college sweetheart types. Very young children.
Needless to say they both ended up being divorced.
These were again very much faithful good guys.

These experiences definitely color my view of separation. I have seen all these great and loyal people totally fall apart during these separations.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Machiavelli said:


> This is good. Was your separation legal or just something you guys cooked up informally? If the latter, move back into the house yesterday. This will dump big snow on her campfire. Kill the internet, cell plan, etc.


This is an excellent point. Whatever agreements you did have are clearly null and void. Move back to make her dating difficult.


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## ArmyofJuan

desperateguy said:


> I take your point all. Let me play devil's advocate.
> 
> We've all seen cases - many cases - of people running off with an affair or whatever, and then after a few months having a change of heart. I'm not going to throw away 18 years and the future of our 2 kids that easily.


You know what? This is true and I thought this way and it happened to me. I was able to R 3 times with this tactic (2 false Rs).

To do this, all you have to do is sacrifice your dignity and self-respect. Your wife gets to keep her faithful husband and you get to have your unfaithful wife back, easy-peasy!

She is disrespecting you by immediately jumping into the dating pool before the corpse is even cold. The thing is you won't be able to stop her so I'd say do it yourself. Some people might not like that idea but I was seeing someone when my WW come around the 3rd and last time and that time R stuck. Me dating and getting my confidence back really showed my W that I was willing and able to move on without her and made me 100x more desirable than sitting on my thumbs.


----------



## Machiavelli

I forgot to mention, if you do move back, which you should ASAP, keep a small VAR on you at all times as your wife may try to keep her orgy going by having you removed from your home forcibly. Yeah, she can get you put out of your house with a protection order. You can get VARs that look like a ballpoint pen. Keep one clipped to your shirt at all times, if you move back in.

Back up all face to face conversations to the cloud.


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## SRN

Ok, I've read through the whole thread, and a lot of good advice. Advice I wish I had listned too, but didn't. All these people are talking from experience, don't discount that. Everything you're reading here was learned the hard way.

One question I don't think I've seen asked is this: Can you deal with the fact that she's slept with another (or several other) men? Can you? That will mess with your mind. What did she do with them? What did they do to her? How did she react? That special move or moan or laugh that she always did _just_ for you she's now likely done for another guy. Can you live with that? I know I couldn't which is why I filed. It still wakes me up in a cold sweat at night.
This is your wife, mate! Your _wife_! And she's out sleeping around! Why the f*ck aren't you just pissed right the hell off? I get it, I wasn't either. I wanted to save my marriage. I didn't believe what everyone was telling me. Even after I found out about the affair. Even after I filed and was going to sign the papers with her I was still clinging to some false hope that she'd snap out of it. Fact of the matter is, she's not going to! At least not while you just sit around, and the odds are not even after you've tried some tough love.

*You can't make anyone do anything that they don't want to do.*

Read that. Read it over and over again. Ingrain that in your mind. If you take one thing away from this experience, that is it. Right now, the best and ONLY thing you can do is focus on you. For yourself and your kids. She's gone. If she want's to come back, she will. But only she can choose to do that.


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## Machiavelli

ArmyofJuan said:


> Some people might not like that idea but I was seeing someone when my WW come around the 3rd and last time and that time R stuck. Me dating and getting my confidence back really showed my W that I was willing and able to move on without her and made me 100x more desirable than sitting on my thumbs.


This has been known to work. WW has no sexual interest in OP and can't see how any other woman would either. She has put him in the omega zone. Women take their attraction cues from the responses of other women toward their male prospects. This is why women tend to prefer men who are already in a relationship (pre-approved) or upfront womanizers. They also want to feel like they are still the cat's meow to their exes. Plus, they want the man they can't have. Another reason why moving on is usually the best tactic to getting them back, but I doubt it will work in this case.


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## In_The_Wind

ArmyofJuan said:


> You know what? This is true and I thought this way and it happened to me. I was able to R 3 times with this tactic (2 false Rs).
> 
> To do this, all you have to do is sacrifice your dignity and self-respect. Your wife gets to keep her faithful husband and you get to have your unfaithful wife back, easy-peasy!
> 
> She is disrespecting you by immediately jumping into the dating pool before the corpse is even cold. The thing is you won't be able to stop her so I'd say do it yourself. Some people might not like that idea but I was seeing someone when my WW come around the 3rd and last time and that time R stuck. Me dating and getting my confidence back really showed my W that I was willing and able to move on without her and made me 100x more desirable than sitting on my thumbs.


:iagree::iagree: I started taking my wife's best friend out on dates as soon as she heard that well she couldnt wait to get into recovery after that couldnt move quick enough This was after her revenge affair on me needless to say we have never been better and its been 3 yrs now 

Good Luck


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## that_girl

All that cheating and revenge cheating is just wayyyy too much drama for me.

Hang out with women if you please...but just don't dip your stick.


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## In_The_Wind

that_girl said:


> All that cheating and revenge cheating is just wayyyy too much drama for me.
> 
> Hang out with women if you please...but just don't dip your stick.


Your right TG however alls fair in love and war as they say and honestly i did want to R with my wife, She was taking her time making a decision so i just thought of something that would help push it along I know bad bad bad it did work though


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## that_girl

In_The_Wind said:


> Your right TG however alls fair in love and war as they say and honestly i did want to R with my wife, She was taking her time making a decision so i just thought of something that would help push it along I know bad bad bad it did work though


Yea. Glad it worked for you. I just wouldn't have been able to do it myself.
And if Hubs had done it, it would have pushed me farther away.


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## Almostrecovered

desperateguy said:


> Maybe there is.
> 
> This is what I don't understand.
> 
> This is a forum on infidelity. The dominant subject is BS working out how to get their WS back. That's my situation.
> 
> It's also pretty common for the WS to say they want to leave, to divorce, etc. That's also my situation.
> 
> But there's many discussions here about how to turn around the WS, when all those points above are true.
> 
> So I don't get why people are just saying to divorce to me, but talking about how to win them back to others.
> 
> I don't see how my situation is that much different from the others here, how my situation neccessiates divorce. Sure in time if nothing changes, of course it does.
> 
> No, she doesn't want to reconcile - but that's common for a WS (I believe). She's in an affair fog. But my understanding is that passes - or can sometimes be "popped" by drastic action.
> 
> Obviously there are no guarantees, it is ultimately up to the WS to change, to repent, to cut off contact, etc, etc. Not at that stage yet.
> 
> And yes, I've screwed up. But so has pretty much every BS.
> 
> So what I don't get is why people are saying divorce to me? What's different?



for starters you may not a have choice in whether you D or R anyways, she may just decide no matter what you do to D, you can't control her can you? 

What you can do is control yourself-

Which is present consequence for her adultery

you said yourself that you had an agreement that you wouldnt see others during separation, and she broke that agreement and you are still married thus it is infidelity

thus your best shot in getting her to R is to show her that you won't allow her to stay married while she plays around. That consequence will put her to the choice- stay with you and work things out with no more dating men OR continue dating other men and proceed with the D

I know it sounds counter-intuitive but it's your only shot- the longer she gets to have the marriage and the security that comes with it and still have the single life fun the harder it will be to get her back, so that's why we say you can't nice a cheater out of the affair


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## iheartlife

It is very hard to do what you're doing and it is counterintuitive to follow the advice. The reason that you see so much "tough love" here is because we know what it's like to be you. You are so HURT that what you really want to do is wake up and find out this was all a nightmare. So you trick yourself, you fool yourself, into believing things that people like us see right through. We're on the other side of this trying to throw out lifelines.

As far as your WS--

Think of a child. A child disobeys, tests boundaries, etc.

Think of the parent who lets the child break boundary after boundary. Who tells them what the limits are, but the child disobeys anyway. The parent doesn't exact any consequences for the child's behavior.

Answer this: does that child respect that parent when they don't follow through? Will their future actions show RESPECT? Will they keep inside the boundaries in the FUTURE?

You know the answer. It is very hard to swallow. But you already know it.

It's just a cold hard biological fact that the vast majority of women need to RESPECT a man in order to LOVE him. They do not RESPECT someone who draws a line in the sand, and it gets crossed, they just go and draw another one.


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## Lon

desperateguy, sorry you are going through this. A year ago my w said she wanted D, and we talked, and discussed etc, she needed time/space... About a month before she had booked herself a getaway (even though we'd gone on a nice family vacation just a few weeks before that) and the D word happened to pop up just a couple days before her vacation. Of course I later found out her retreat was actually a booty call... the details are quite ugly, several OM, and I was shocked how blind I was to all of this. It was even more shocking to see the person she has become ever since - she too still won't acknowledge it was adultery (in her mind we were divorced, even though she only mentioned the word once before going all the way to intercourse, was still living at our home and had not separated or talked to a lawyer to have any kind of proceedings started). The facts around my situation are only slightly different than yours, however one thing is the same, your W, like mine was, is checked out of the marriage.

R is not on the table for you right now. You keep iterating that you were the one who initiated separation - that is false, she did and you played her game by giving her the time/space she needed to pursue her affairs. You say you need 12 months before you can file - similar in Canada however you can have all the agreements in place and divorce decree signed and ready to sign by the judge on day 366. Plus in Canada if there is proof of adultery (as there is in your case) it can be fast tracked. But really, you will be healing from this for a long time, no rush on the divorce just get it started so you have a direction and plan.

Right now your primary interest is to protect yourself because NOBODY but you is going to do that. As well, you now have to stop trying to protect your W because she has fired you from that job.

Good luck... many of us guys on this forum have been exactly where you were and our advice is based on hard earned wisdom.


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## SRN

Lon said:


> It was even more shocking to see the person she has become ever since - she too still won't acknowledge it was adultery (in her mind we were divorced, even though she only mentioned the word once before going all the way to intercourse, was still living at our home and had not separated or talked to a lawyer to have any kind of proceedings started).


Its fascinating how common this is. My ex did the same thing. As soon as they check out, they assume that you will too. That you are on the same page as them and somehow _know_ that its over.


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## lovelygirl

SRN said:


> What did she do with them? What did they do to her? How did she react? That special move or moan or laugh that she always did _just_ for you she's now likely done for another guy. Can you live with that? .


You could wonder the same about men she's had _before_ you. So you'll never be able to tell if she did that moan just for/with you.
Maybe that's her way she handles sex..no matter with who she has it.


----------



## SRN

lovelygirl said:


> You could wonder the same about men she's had _before_ you. So you'll never be able to tell if she did that moan just for/with you.
> Maybe that's her the way she handles sex..no matter with who she has it.


Well in my case, no it was just me. I was her first and she mine. 
Fun times...


----------



## lovelygirl

SRN said:


> Well in my case, no it was just me. I was her first and she mine.
> Fun times...


Oh well then, unfortunately you're right to doubt like that.


----------



## Lon

SRN said:


> Its fascinating how common this is. My ex did the same thing. *As soon as they check out, they assume that you will too. That you are on the same page as them and somehow know that its over.*


Yes, the moment when the twisted look of rejection, betrayal and grief on my face was met with confused disbelief on hers is the worst, most painful moment I've ever felt in my life. Worse even then the katana slicing me through my core when I saw the photo evidence of her affarir... worse than hearing her utter the words "I want a divorce". It's like she was looking at me as if she thought I wanted her to go have sex with other men and erase the future I always wanted with her in one cruel swipe.

When it finally all hit me, some days after dday, I fell to the floor, curled up an weeped like a terrified child, unable to control myself... feeling her eyes on me trying to guess if I was really in that much pain or just putting on a show. I couldn't bare to be there like that completely ripped open my guts on the floor, and feeling like she was judging ME like I was the broken one (because I was at that moment). That was the moment I also realized she was not, nor had ever really been, there for me - it was a revealing moment for me that she really was a truly selfish woman and it also started to dawn on me right then that I didn't want her in my future.

It was a defining moment in life - one I hope all betrayed spouses get to experience (whether that means they realize they do want their spouse in their life or not), it was my own certainty, my coming-out-of-the-smog moment.


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## arbitrator

Until the Judge's signature is actually dry on the divorce decree, you are deemed by law to be in a "married state." To that end, that is "cheating!"

Now my question is: If STBX and you are separated but not yet legally divorced and STBX lists their marital status as being "divorced" either on FB or some dating website, isn't that tantamount to cheating on their part?


----------



## profos

desperateguy said:


> This is a genuine question. I'm trying not to be defensive.
> 
> I am surprised by the reactions I'm getting here. This is a forum for coping with infidelity. We've all seen many people, often in their sigs, of people who have had an affair and reunited successfully. In general, those people who get through it have a better marriage than most.
> 
> So I honestly don't get it. Why are most people telling me to move on? I understand there's a time and place to move on, but none of those people who survived from an affair did it easily - they all went against the odds, put themselves out, risked their emotions, etc.


You're surprised at the multitude of unanimous answers that concur about your wife 1) setting you up 2) having this planned all along and 3) your only option being to walk away from the marriage because you're a) in denial b) desperate to hold onto a failed marriage and c) expecting to hear the good old "everything will be ok, she'll be back, full of remorse and in between the sheets with you before you know it as long as you are patient and wait for her".

It's not going to happen.


----------



## profos

arbitrator said:


> Until the Judge's signature is actually dry on the divorce decree, you are deemed by law to be in a "married state." To that end, that is "cheating!"


No, if two parties are married and yet are fully aware of their partners sexual actions with another person it's not cheating.

The term "cheating" is in no way shape or form related to "being legally married", it has everything to do with deception.


----------



## arbitrator

profos said:


> No, if two parties are married and yet are fully aware of their partners sexual actions with another person it's not cheating.
> 
> The term "cheating" is in no way shape or form related to "being legally married", it has everything to do with deception.



I was just giving a broad example of "cheating," and was not quoting statutory law. However, if you should prefer the legal vernacular, then it would be officially listed as "adultery."


----------



## Machiavelli

profos said:


> No, if two parties are married and yet are fully aware of their partners sexual actions with another person it's not cheating.
> 
> The term "cheating" is in no way shape or form related to "being legally married", it has everything to do with deception.


You're right. It's not cheating. It's just plain old adultery.


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## TDSC60

profos said:


> No, if two parties are married and yet are fully aware of their partners sexual actions with another person it's not cheating.
> 
> The term "cheating" is in no way shape or form related to "being legally married", it has everything to do with deception.


I have to disagree.

Being aware of sexual actions and agreeing to sexual actions are not the same.

He is aware of her sexual actions but they violate the separation agreement which specified - no interaction with other people.

Deception is definitely a part of most cheater's handbook. She was not up front with him and started to pursue other men the minute the separation started even though she agreed not to do that. So in this case - yeah, cheater.


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## Toffer

"Who she's with when she's 90 is more important than who she's chatting with today." - Unbelievable

Seems a bit naive if you ask me. She's out and about boinking like a rabbit in heat and what's important is where she will be when she's 90? I'd be willing to bet she'll be running from bed to bed in the old folks home when she's 90!

She couldn't even wait 24 hours to get her freak on! Whether or not she plans on going back to the OP as the fallback guy after she's full remains a question but I bet she will. Op will spend the rest of his time with her watching over her.


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## bandit.45

Not only is she a cheater, she is a loose cheater. She's been waiting for the gates to open her whole marriage, and he finally sprung the latch!


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## Trickster

Way befoe my wife and I were married,when we were just lliving together for about 3 years, we seperated. (If you can call it that)She oved in with a Female friend in another City 4 hours away.

We both "dated". (NO SEX) I went joined a dating club (no on-line stuff back then) and she dated a few men. I was having a blast. I didn't have sex with them. I was too nice. I dated about 10 women within 4 months. 

Well, after the 4th month, she was already making plans to come back and I wasn't really ready for her to come back. What I found out is that my wife is really sweet and although dating other women was fun, most were a little too wild for me. That was 17 years ago.


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## Toffer

Desperate,

Stop thinking your being attacked here. Listen to these people. Not to be corny but at times you need to walk away and show the cheater that you are strong and prepared to move on without her in your life and that you are going to become a better person for the next woman in your life so this doesn't happen again.

You Said "She was after validation (something I did badly in the last few years). She wanted to feel desirable, to feel valued by a man. She had become to doubt herself as a woman and wanted to feel that way."

I belive this is true. What is wrong her is how she chose to get her validation while still in a marriage with you, forsaking all she had promised to you 18 years ago. 

I don't blame her for feeling this way but didn't she owe it to use as a friend and a mate to say "This isn't working. I no longer love you because of the way you've treated me over the years. also, since you've been so crappy to me, I am going to date again and have sex to see if I can re-kindle that giddy feeling I had as a teen when I would fall in love with someone new."

What people are advocating here is a Big Stick apprach. She's all fogged up and most times hitting them with the Big Stick can knock them off the fence and give them some clarity. Is it harsh? Yes! Most times in cases like yours, being subtle does not work!

Stop defending yourself and try using some of the suggestions listed here. You may be surprised at the results


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## Trickster

I do know that when I told my wife-then GF about some of my dates was when she wanted to come back to me. For a while, I felt like she desired me. That didn't last long.

If Both of you agreed to be allowed to have sex during the separation, I think that would be just fine. However, I don'tbelieve the OP has a choice here.


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## Chaparral

The advice here is usually to break up an affair. She's not having an affair and is not in the affair fog. She has found that through your misguided separation that she likes dating and having sex with other men, she thinks its better than what she had with you. 

Your big mistake was moving out. So move back in and do what you can to stop her adultery. (If thats what you want). If you have to stay separated for a year doesn't that mean she would have to move out. If she does, don't let her take the kids. Consequences. Let her pay for her whole separtate lifestyle. Stop paying for anything to do with her. Move back in and be a good man and father. If you show her what you can do she might go for it.

It sounds like she wants to be the town bicycle, however, and you probably won't get over that.


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## Halien

You are fixating on that word "seperation", somehow implying that it gives her a free pass.

OP: "My wife pursued sexual relationships with other men while we were seperated, but married, therefore it is okay."

But you also said that you agreed that both of you would be working on reconciliation during this time.

OP: "My wife pursued sexual relationships with other men while we were working on reconciliation, but still married, therefore it is okay." Dude, she would be crazy to leave you.


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## iheartlife

Wow, 8 pages in and thirty-four members saying that it's definitely cheating / adultery. Have you read other threads here? Most of them get just a handful of consistent posters. Yours may set some kind of record.

That is some deep denial, especially the part about how we're the ones who were betrayed, so 'of course' we think it's cheating.

Have you visited a cheater's website and posted the same question? Just curious what their responses would be. Probably along the lines of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em." Or that you should join your wife in a 3-(or more)-way.

I agree with the advice of chap that you move back in, keep the kids, and make her move out if she wants to continue with her newfound lifestyle. Report back from there.


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## bandit.45

arbitrator said:


> Until the Judge's signature is actually dry on the divorce decree, you are deemed by law to be in a "married state." To that end, that is "cheating!"
> 
> Now my question is: If STBX and you are separated but not yet legally divorced and STBX lists their marital status as being "divorced" either on FB or some dating website, isn't that tantamount to cheating on their part?


The fact that a large portion of our population think marriage vows go on hold during separation, shows you just how devalued marriage is in this f*cked up society.


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## arbitrator

bandit.45 said:


> The fact that a large portion of our population think marriage vows go on hold during separation, shows you just how devalued marriage is in this f*cked up society.


No truer words have ever been spoken, my good man!


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## that_girl

Yea ....I agree, Bandit.

And just the nerve of her. It really tells me she was just waiting for him to make the move to get out so she could do this.

My husband moved out and I was devastated. If I was to have gone online 24 hours after he left...just to meet men to screw? holy crap. The thought would have made me ill. 

OP, not many people deal with emotional distress the way you think your wife does/did. Most women whose husbands have left will talk to friends, etc, if they are upset about their man leaving.

They don't go online to eff other guys.

No way.


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## lordmayhem

bandit.45 said:


> The fact that a large portion of our population think marriage vows go on hold during separation, shows you just how devalued marriage is in this f*cked up society.


:iagree:

My friend just went thru the exact same thing. Within days of her getting her new apartment, she was throwing parties, going out partying and drinking. And this is a woman that would NEVER drink, not through all the years that we knew her. No one could get her to even drink for special occasions like New Years. She went online, even before they separated and paraded her new boyfriends to everyone. It polarized our circle of friends, with the wives in our group high fiving her and saying that its okay because they're separated and she deserves to be happy.


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## arbitrator

that_girl said:


> Yea ....I agree, Bandit.
> 
> And just the nerve of her. It really tells me she was just waiting for him to make the move to get out so she could do this.
> 
> My husband moved out and I was devastated. If I was to have gone online 24 hours after he left...just to meet men to screw? holy crap. The thought would have made me ill.
> 
> OP, not many people deal with emotional distress the way you think your wife does/did. Most women whose husbands have left will talk to friends, etc, if they are upset about their man leaving.
> 
> They don't go online to eff other guys.
> 
> No way.


I would totally agree with that assessment as overall theory provided that there is no active infidelity of any kind going on. But there's always the distinct possibility that they might well have already engaged in that sort of activity even prior to their spouses having actually moved out!


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## that_girl

Friends who watch friends do stupid things because they "deserve" to be happy are not friends.

I know my friends would have betch slapped me and I would have betch slapped them had we behaved that way.


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## lordmayhem

that_girl said:


> Friends who watch friends do stupid things because they "deserve" to be happy are not friends.
> 
> I know my friends would have betch slapped me and I would have betch slapped them had we behaved that way.


:iagree:

My best friend was involved in an affair, I told him to stop, I exposed him to his wife. To this day he's still my best friend and thankful for what I did for him. His wife and him are fully R'd but it took a while. And now he's there for me as I go thru my own problem.


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## Beowulf

Desperate,

You wanted the opinion of someone that has reconciled. Here you go.

I'm a BS that reconciled 20 years ago. All the advice you are receiving here is spot on whether you want to believe or accept it or not. You cannot make someone love you. You cannot love someone out of an affair or love them out of "loose" behavior. Your wife will never respect you if you act as a doormat. The hard truth is that you cannot save something until you are prepared to lose it.


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## Almostrecovered

been a day since he logged on

hope he comes back


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## Confused and worried

In the U.S. at least, the states that require a separation of at least 12 months before granting a divorce will consider even dating during the separation as an affair and if it is a modified at fault state they will grant you a divorce at any point during the separation on that basis alone, converting a no fault divorce into an at fault divorce. It goes without saying that in an at fault divorce the court will sympathize with the BS in the proceedings. 

In my state the court will even allow you to name the OM/OW in the divorce and proceed with a civil suit against them for monetary damages, such as court costs for the divorce and the civil suit, thus potentially punishing someone that seeks out married people for sex. I love this state more and more.

You may want to check with your lawyer though as I am by no means trying to give you legal advice.


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## Chaparral

that_girl said:


> Yea ....I agree, Bandit.
> 
> And just the nerve of her. It really tells me she was just waiting for him to make the move to get out so she could do this.
> 
> My husband moved out and I was devastated. If I was to have gone online 24 hours after he left...just to meet men to screw? holy crap. The thought would have made me ill.
> 
> OP, not many people deal with emotional distress the way you think your wife does/did. Most women whose husbands have left will talk to friends, etc, if they are upset about their man leaving.
> 
> They don't go online to eff other guys.
> 
> No way.


I think OP is probably right about her not planning this. We have no detalis about what led up tothe separation execpt it was OP's idea. She tol;d her friends she didn't wanta divorce.

However, when he left (dumped her in her mind), all bets were off. Now instead of the relentless pressure of at least one unhappy partner, she is party girl with no worries. Well screw him and his separtation, things are much better now.

Just speculating. As far as I'm concerned, if my wife left, that would be all it took.


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## desperateguy

Ok so back, been in real life turmoil.

I did confront her, not quite the way suggested here but took a strong stance. I made it clear I wasn't going to stick around much longer. I really took the advice of someone (can't remember who to give credit to) who said "you can't win her back without making her angry". That became almost a mantra to me. 

I knew she was far gone, but a few small things that came up that made me realise how truly far gone she was. Once I saw those things, I realised that while in theory I still wanted her back, the changes she would need to do to win my trust were just not going to happen. If anything she is getting worse, not better. 

So I decided that was it. It was a mental/emotional switch. I just stewed on it for a few hours and realised that the odds of reconciliation were so unbelievably tiny, that for me to hold on was destructive to me. So I let go.

The following day she sent me an email stating very clearly (and coldly) that she had zero interest in reconciliation. The interesting thing is she has never actually used the "divorce" word. Dunno what's going on there. Like saying that is an admission of defeat?

Anyway, when the email came through, it did nothing to me. I didn't react, didn't make me sad. I had a friend over, just saw the email quickly on my phone. Glanced at it and kept chatting. And I wasn't just putting on a brave face, it really didn't phase me. Now I know letting go is a process, I'm not that stupid, but I can already feel a significant "shift" in me. I'm sure there's some emotional turmoil ahead, but not doing too badly now. 

I can stand up to myself, to my children, to my family, and say "I did everything I could to make this work". That's worth a lot to me. I have the absolute unconditional blessing of everyone - including her parents who I'm on great terms with - to let go and move on. Not that I needed that, but it's nice to have it. 

And just for a bit of fun, she had been publicly playing the "perfect wife whose husband was satan" line (I readily admit I screwed stuff up, but it was pretty much a classic 50/50 fault breakdown). This was to her family as well. Her parents paid her a surprise visit last weekend. Walked into her bedroom naked in bed with a guy. A w k w a r d. I've heard via friends she's been dating this guy for a few weeks, and apparently it's already on the rocks and she's ready to dump him. I guess she's made her bed, she is literally and figuratively laying and lying in it!

But I'm continuing to be the better man. I could literally destroy her life, quite easily. She has done so much stuff in private (which I have very strong proof of), but maintains a very public moral image. But that's fine. That's her choice, and her life to live. 

Thanks to all for wrestling with me - and I mean that sincerely!


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## keko

Did you think about exposing everything she did to her friends/family/coworkers? That might be the last wake up call for her to see clear.


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## warlock07

> She has done so much stuff in private (which I have very strong proof of), but maintains a very public moral image.


Do you mean illegal stuff?


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## desperateguy

Yes, I did think about that. But she really is far gone. All that would do now is create animosity. 

Just before I finally made up my mind, I did call a friend of hers who is extremely influential in her professional/social circle (the two are inseparable), and been a semi-mentor of hers. Told her everything. 

She was shocked of course. But then since I decided it was over, I decided to leave it up to her how to handle that information, and told her so. Still what's been said can't be unsaid. And I'm ok with that.


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## desperateguy

warlock07 said:


> Do you mean illegal stuff?


No. Just crazily irresponsible stuff.

Spending money on expensive tattoos while not being able to afford the rent, and then seducing the tattoo artist. 

Just to be clear, I'm fine with her getting tatts, that doesn't bother me. But while you can't pay the rent... and then... yeah.


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## keko

desperateguy said:


> Yes, I did think about that. But she really is far gone. All that would do now is create animosity.
> 
> Just before I finally made up my mind, I did call a friend of hers who is extremely influential in her professional/social circle (the two are inseparable), and been a semi-mentor of hers. Told her everything.
> 
> She was shocked of course. But then since I decided it was over, I decided to leave it up to her how to handle that information, and told her so. Still what's been said can't be unsaid. And I'm ok with that.


I meant not to humiliate her but to get the truth out before she twist's it. At least to the people that you care but aren't aware of it.


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## keko

Her parents didn't anything when they caught her in the bed with another man?


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## desperateguy

keko said:


> Her parents didn't anything when they caught her in the bed with another man?


They already knew she was screwing around. I'd told them. 

I don't know what happened, but I know it was ugly. And I know my wife refuses to talk to them now. Apparently they texted her the next day 
"We love you"
she replied
"Don't contact me again"

They are a pretty close family.

As I said, she's very very far gone.


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## desperateguy

keko said:


> I meant not to humiliate her but to get the truth out before she twist's it. At least to the people that you care but aren't aware of it.


Not sure I see the point. I know what she's saying about me. It's not true, but it's not anything terrible. 

The strange thing is I did screw up plenty of stuff in the marriage. Why she's telling people a lie about what I did is bizarre. But whatever, the lie is no worse than the stuff I actually did do. So no point. She basically has nothing on me worse than the "usual" marriage stuff, eg, emotional neglect, etc. Not for a second saying that stuff is minor, it's not and I screwed up. But if that's the worse she can say about me, then fine. 

Family and close friends know what she's been up to. She's burnt a lot of bridges.


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## warlock07

desperateguy said:


> They already knew she was screwing around. I'd told them.
> 
> I don't know what happened, but I know it was ugly. And I know my wife refuses to talk to them now. Apparently they texted her the next day
> "We love you"
> she replied
> "Don't contact me again"
> 
> They are a pretty close family.
> 
> As I said, she's very very far gone.



Yep, she is in self destructive phase. Step aside and move on


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## anonim

desperateguy said:


> Because I believe it's only temporary. Call it an affair fog.


i think you are the one that's in a fog my friend


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## Kallan Pavithran

Why you are waiting, issue her with what she needed the D papers. You should have done this yesterday.


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## iheartlife

desperateguy said:


> I can stand up to myself, to my children, to my family, and say "I did everything I could to make this work". That's worth a lot to me. I have the absolute unconditional blessing of everyone - including her parents who I'm on great terms with - to let go and move on. Not that I needed that, but it's nice to have it.


I'm glad to see you swing from fairly deep denial to this. I am glad her parents saw her for what she was. I'm glad they learned that you were telling the 100% truth.

Maintain the high road for your children. They are watching everything, everything that you do right now. Stay strong.


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## desperateguy

iheartlife said:


> I am glad her parents saw her for what she was. I'm glad they learned that you were telling the 100% truth.
> 
> Maintain the high road for your children. They are watching everything, everything that you do right now. Stay strong.


Thanks, it's tough to be the bigger person, but have managed it so far. Well, except one TINY thing, which chances are she didn't notice, but hey I'm allowed to have some fun aren't I?

Her parents always believed me. When they walked in on her and her boyfriend naked in bed, I think that probably sealed the deal for them though....


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## the guy

DG,
Just quickly went through your thread and I see what you mean by wrestling with the replies way back then (a few weeks back). Its hard to argue with experience but you did a fair job. 

Now you are in a new phase and from the sound of your current posts you'll be fine. These days seem tough but it does get better.

Its not what knocks us down that matters, it how we get back up that counts.

Curious about the 12 month period you have to wait, is it before you file for D or before the D is finalized?


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## desperateguy

Yeah, it's tough. But I think I've already been through the worst of the grief. I'm doing surprisingly ok. I'm kinda wondering if I'm repressing something and going to have an explosion some time, but I don't think so. Not pretending I'm great, but I'm functioning, unlike a month post-separation. 



the guy said:


> DG,
> 
> Curious about the 12 month period you have to wait, is it before you file for D or before the D is finalized?


Before you file. Then because there's kids involved, there's a few legal steps to go through, even if the divorce is 100% amicable.

However it is possible to get a binding financial separation now. Thinking of kicking that off next week. If she disagrees, I can get complete access to her financial records. Wine, tattoos, etc. Her call


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## the guy

So what dictates the starting point of the 12 months before you file and what is the time frame before its finalized?

In the states you file and depending on the state it can be 30 day or 90 days before its final.

I'm curious b/c I'm concerned you will prograstinate and could be losing valuable time in having her face the reality of her dicision.


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## desperateguy

You can start to file 12 months after the date of separation. Not sure the time frame that it takes. A few months I gather.

I think I'm gonna do the financial thing soon, start the next week or two. Once that's done, the actual divorce I don't really care about that much. 

She is so deep in denial, her arguments just don't pass basic common sense. It's bizarre. I did screw up plenty of things, but she's not focusing on that. She's just making up stuff which is obviously rubbish. So frankly I don't care about her facing up. It's her life. Facing up to reality has always been a weak point of hers. She's in the deepest she's ever been. I have a feeling she may never get out of it.


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## the guy

You would think her rock bottom would be now with lossing her marriage, allienated from her parents and distance from close friends. But I guess it will take more crap in her life to realize that expecting change when doing the same thing over and over again doesn't cut it.


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## lordmayhem

desperateguy said:


> However it is possible to get a binding financial separation now. Thinking of kicking that off next week. If she disagrees, I can get complete access to her financial records. Wine, tattoos, etc. Her call


Yeah, I read about that from another poster named velveteer in another forum. He's from Ireland too and he stated that they had to be legally separated a year before divorce proceedings can commence. 

One of our states, North Carolina I think, requires a long separation period too before being able to divorce.


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## desperateguy

the guy said:


> You would think her rock bottom would be now with lossing her marriage, allienated from her parents and distance from close friends. But I guess it will take more crap in her life to realize that expecting change when doing the same thing over and over again doesn't cut it.


Honestly, I'm not sure she ever will. My prediction:
She's come around to it partly, but put a spin on it. In order to fully acknowledge what she has done, that she's broken up the family, our kids will now be raised in a broken home, with no effort AT ALL on her part post-separation to try and make it otherwise, I just don't think she can reconcile that.

Right now I've asked her how to handle telling the kids. Ideally we would do it together. She is completely avoiding the subject. Doesn't want to face her guilt. Or hasn't worked out a way to spin it. The kids KNOW that I want it to work and she has been reluctant, so not much of a way to spin divorce away from "it's all my fault" from that base.


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## the guy

Don't kid your self, it sounds like your wife will come back with this great idea that you hurt her to much to come back to daddy. 

Do you think for one minute she will tell her little ones that mommy like to have boyfriends and daddy won't let her?

I strongly suggest your both script this out with a counselor that will be age apropreiate for them. In doing this you will have a better chance to answer there many questions.

Right now its about them and your WW will need to step out of the fog for one session of family counseliing for the benifit of the kids. After that she can step back in her fantasyland.


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