# Naive - Generally a Good Thing?



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

The OP in this thread had a bit of an unfair kicking in my opinion:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/238466-lazy-wife-starting-crack.html

We do not have the full story, but it seems he went into marriage assuming it was a partnership and both sides would try to make it work. Naive and stupid seemed to be the response. 

However, having in the past sought advice from men in good marriages, I was struck my something. 

Their advice was rubbish. They absolutely assumed good faith and that sure both sides would care for the well-being of the other and be willing to make some effort as long as they are appreciated? Their advice was, "have you not explained it to her? What did she say........but that makes no sense, you must have misunderstood".

In other words, we can be very wise on here, but ultimately, many people make it work regardless of not having any of that insight. Having a partner that does not have to be trained like a semi-feral puppy is a bigger factor than anything else.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Two people committed to making marriage work are probably bound to succeed. One person who is committed in a marriage might be able to persuade the other, but it is not sure.

You mentioned the other day that men in good marriages are spoiled. Is this thread in part to elaborate on that?


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

jld said:


> Two people committed to making marriage work are probably bound to succeed. One person who is committed in a marriage might be able to persuade the other, but it is not sure.
> 
> You mentioned the other day that men in good marriages are spoiled. Is this thread in part to elaborate on that?


It was my mentioning it on that thread that got me thinking. Then I read the post I mention earlier.

Most people have good reason to think the other is commited. Sometimes they are, and then you suddenly find yourself in a frog and scorpion scenario and no clever method will work.

I, personnally, learnt a great deal on this forum, i.e. give up. I also had to tolorate some people offering panaceas and refusing to believe they did not apply. It was mentioned on another thread that a professional may be more sympathetic than people on here. Tough love is necessary, but I am not going to condemn people for trusting the person they marry, it would seem crazy to marry them otherwise. That done, it is a shock if they act completely differently.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Each one sees things through their own frame of reference and experiences. Something someone shares may click.

You are assuming that the advice is naive. But you have never had kids, have you MTO? That alone adds a huge factor in that thread you linked.

Some of the advice you see as "naive" might instead come out of hard learned experience that differences in neatness might not be the hill to die on.

In your case, you have a very clean break. When children are involved there is no such thing.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

I think the phrase "love is blind" is more appropriate. During courting we put our best foot forward, good appearances, best behavior. Then, after living with someone for a few years, the blinders come off and you realize "crap! my spouse is the laziest person I've ever met!"

Maybe you already realized it, thought they would change and they didn't and now you're stuck in a situation.

But also we have to remember that we are supposed to be adults when we get married and should be more aware of the situation before getting into it.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

You don't truly know someone until you've lived with them.

And relationships are supposed to be partnerships. Anyone would feel slighted if they felt they were carrying the load of everything. Always being the giver when you are with a taker is not good. It will wear people down.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Blonde said:


> Each one sees things through their own frame of reference and experiences. Something someone shares may click.
> 
> You are assuming that the advice is naive. But you have never had kids, have you MTO? That alone adds a huge factor in that thread you linked.
> 
> ...


Hi Blonde,

I must disagree. I wrote (perhaps on another thread), that I did not think the poster was in a good mental position atm to give the full picture. Kids are obviously a huge factor.

However, if there were no kids and she is not working, the naive advice is "You should communicate that you would like her to help" or "Perhaps you could help too". The third suggestion would be, "perhaps you could show you appreciate what she does do".

I had a clean break, and my wife was not willing to be heavily involved with children, housework, work or sex. The advice from husbands in good marraiges was I must be making some huge error, either communication (it was perfectly clear) or bounderies (she ended up having a tough time of it, but preffered misery), then thirdly, depression (two doctors said no). 

In other words, the assumption is that the woman is strongly motivated by an active desire and care for their husband's well being. There are many women like this and their husbands are lucky men. Often, the husbands put it down to their own abilites.

Equally, I imagine there are many wives with decent husbands, who put their single womens' friends difficulties down to the lack of wisdom that they have in bundles.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> In other words, the assumption is that the woman is strongly motivated by an active desire and care for their husband's well being. There are many women like this and their husbands are lucky men. Often, the husbands put it down to their own abilites.
> 
> Equally, I imagine there are many wives with decent husbands, who put their single womens' friends difficulties down to the lack of wisdom that they have in bundles.




We all know it all?


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Chris Taylor said:


> I think the phrase "love is blind" is more appropriate. During courting we put our best foot forward, good appearances, best behavior. Then, after living with someone for a few years, the blinders come off and you realize "crap! my spouse is the laziest person I've ever met!"
> 
> Maybe you already realized it, thought they would change and they didn't and now you're stuck in a situation.
> 
> But also we have to remember that we are supposed to be adults when we get married and should be more aware of the situation before getting into it.


That is a great example. In the thread I quoted, that was the case. It is not always.

Again, I hate to bring it back to me, but this is simplistic. People do change dramatically in different circumstances. For what it is worth, my old friends in the city where I lived assumed out marriage difficulties must have come from me cheating or something, as she was such a down to Earth and caring person. In the new city we moved to, people cannot understand why I ever married such a pretentious and indifferent woman with whom I argued. 

An assessment of "Lah! Lah! Lah! that does not happen! - try really listening" is part of what amkes this issue difficult.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

A quick summing up, we can all be as clever as we like, but the route to a good marriage is broadly summed up in three parts;

- Find someone decent
- Do not be a **** (where most book can be useful)
- Hope they stay decent

Only one of those is really in our control, though we might like to pretend otherwise. Even being socially inept and insensitive can be OK, of 1 and 3 are strong enough. The two worst examples of Mr Nice Guys I know of (in both cases, I have had their wives ask me to be more sensitive to their husbands feelings) are both happily married.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Have you read 7 Principles for Making a Marriage Work, by John Gottman? I think it was designed for troubled marriages, but am not sure.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

jld said:


> Have you read 7 Principles for Making a Marriage Work, by John Gottman? I think it was designed for troubled marriages, but am not sure.


I have not read it fully. 

I seems to be mainly about predicting, which is useful. 

It would be useful in a marriage as far as I can see, but it would take both being willing ot make an effort though.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

I don't think it is your fault your M failed MTO.

In the thread you are referencing, my spidey senses are telling me that OP is either a troll with a made up story in an attempt to research what kind of answers he'll get?

OR he is quite an OCD fella with very high standards nursing a very long record of perceived "wrongs". My dad is an obsessive neat freak (with 4 failed M and numerous other failed relationships behind him). My 14yo has OCD tendencies which can come across super controlling to whoever the target of them is 

OCD neat freaks might need to CHILL sometimes- esp when there is a toddler in the house.

Does that make sense?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Why do you think MTO's marriage failed, Blonde?


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

lack of community is a factor IMO

didn't they move to another country very early?

she didn't have any GF's (or family) to talk to and help her process marital conflict and molehills can become mountains when one is all alone trying to figure them out....


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

stress too

changing countries, jobs, friends, etc puts the stress levels off the charts

when I am stresed, the next straw breaks the camel's back

and fight or flight survival mode takes over

does that make sense?


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Blonde said:


> stress too
> 
> changing countries, jobs, friends, etc puts the stress levels off the charts
> 
> ...


I think that is fair. That said, I think it is what made the marriage mercifully brief. Kids would have been a far greater stress than moving to a country, in which (while foreign) everyone speaks English and you are only asked to get a part time job.

Her Dad did hint to her that if I was working and minding the house, I would be pissed off eventually. Her Mum seemed to think that was fine. That said, that her GF's have been very sympathetic to me since the split suggests there were some honest conversations. A lot of what we discussed in marriage preparation turned out to be make believe, which was also a great shame. I am not that she ever understood the difference between feeling you did something on an emotional level and actually doing it are very different. 

I perhaps really wanted a happy marriage and that was an issue. The fact I chose the down to Earth girl rather than a very beautiful woman was part of that (it was not a hard choice at all at the time). 

However, most men who made mistakes as big as mine are happily married.

I would be rubbish now though. I will tie it back into the subject of the thread. When a woman talks about her realtionship or complains, part of me assumes she is lying. It is not to say it annoys me, I just take it as noise. That was a technique I learned from being bull****ted to constantly (in good faith), but is a curse now. 

A man who thinks that I should have just tried really listening to what she feels would make a much better match now (even if he would be smug and annoying).


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

My husband is French, and I am American. We have lived in France, but only for a few months/years. We lived in India, too. Not easy.

He is such a great guy, so good to me, that I would live abroad the rest of my life with him if necessary. But it would be a sacrifice. Life in America is very, very comfortable.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

jld said:


> My husband is French, and I am American. We have lived in France, but only for a few months/years. We lived in India, too. Not easy.
> 
> He is such a great guy, so good to me, that I would live abroad the rest of my life with him if necessary. But it would be a sacrifice. Life in America is very, very comfortable.


Would you say it would be a cultural leap for a European to move to the USA?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> Would you say it would be a cultural leap for a European to move to the USA?


Depends. Dug is very open, so it was fine.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Mr The Other said:


> Would you say it would be a cultural leap for a European to move to the USA?


It is super easy for a European to live in the US. And you can still watch real football on TV, just in the morning instead of afternoon. That is how hard it gets!


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Duguesclin said:


> It is super easy for a European to live in the US. And you can still watch real football on TV, just in the morning instead of afternoon. That is how hard it gets!


I actually think many Americans see it that way. We watched Game of Thrones on Monday rather than Sunday, but were very brave about it. And the burgers here are over-fussy.

Certainly, if I had written in:
"I moved with my wife to the USA, as I wanted to see more of the world. I have been here a year and I think she wants me to help with the housework or get a job. I cannot even get a job interview here though and when she sets up job interviews for me, I don't go.

Sometimes I help around the house and she is pleased, but I do not want to be a house-husband, so I normally play candy crush. Also, she has stopped giving me blow jobs and links to me me not giving her any oral sex for a year. I do not think it is fair I am being punished like this.

How can I get her to improve her communication problems so she can get past her issues?"
I doubt I would have had a sympathetic response. 

In my case, I think the issue was that she thought she was in love, but ultimately was not really and wanted me as a friend. Friends do not typically clean their houses, give them money or sexual gratification so I should not expect that from her. Husbands do all that though and that created a huge imbalance in her expectations. In reality, the expectation that a wife will care for you for your own sake is also hugely unrealistic, but I did get sucked into that.

But, to return to the point. I have learnt a great deal about realtionships and much of it hugely constructive. However, a naive man who thinks a wife would naturally care for her husband for his own sake is probably a far better bet than I am at the moment.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I have been saying this forever. It is impossible to comprehend the dark depths to which a human being will fall into until you see it happening.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MTO, do you think you did anything wrong in your marriage?


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

JLD,

Being able to flourish in another country/culture is easy for your because of your extraordinary husband.

I won't ever cross a border with my H and a minor child again. I don't even maintain a passport anymore. 

Long story, but he does not have an empathetic bone in his body and I felt (and WAS) trapped in a Muslim country with him with no rights (being a mere female and all)

That was in 1990 and I haven't changed my mind about being in a foreign country on his visa. Good ole USA for me. 

Europe might be somewhat easier, but there is still culture shock and adjustments and if SO is a native and not empathetic, they are not going be able to understand nor provide emotional support. I can see how it could be a dark dark place to be.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I agree with you, Blonde. I think it was challenging for MTO's wife.

I remember moving to France and how lonely I felt. Dug was working long hours and travelling. I was home with four kids, homeschooling in a culture that does not approve of it. Money was not exactly plentiful, either. We were six in a small apartment.

Dug is a very good guy, but certainly not perfect. I remember getting chided for not trying harder to make friends. He could have been more understanding. I am sure he sees that now.

I was scared of the people. French people are not the easiest to get to know, and the society is more restrictive and judgmental than here in America. There is not as much freedom and acceptance.

I was really excited to hear he was getting transferred to India. It was a way for the kids and me to escape back to America, at least for a time.

India was its own challenge. I wanted to go home as soon as we got there. I remember sobbing, and I do mean sobbing, and telling Dug he had to buy tickets home for me and the kids. He told me I had to give it time. And then he went to sleep. I sat in bed quiet for about five minutes, and then that awful overwhelming sobbing again. And then the fire ants started biting . . . 

Looking back, I am really glad we had both experiences. But they were not easy at the time. And I am so grateful to be back in America.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

I couldn't speak the language and I was unfamiliar with the neighborhoods and I was afraid to ride the becak to the grocery store (afraid of being kidnapped) and H got angry at me about having to take me to the grocery store.

When I birthed a baby there 6 months in, he left me in the hospital (strange language, strange customs, no telephone) until it was time to pick me up to go home. Did not visit at all (after telling me at the birth of a girl child "YOU got YOURSELF another girl"- he wanted a boy)

I had strange men follow me home and ask if I was M and when I said I was they wanted to know if I had any sisters who were single.

H took my curly blonde blue eyed 5yod on the motorcycle into the section which blocks and blocks of all prostitutes and the pimps said "she'd sell"

When he started going out to bars and hanging out with prostitutes (we were missionaries) I wanted to go home and he said "Go ahead and GO but you can't take the children because they are on MY VISA and you have no rights here"

Never again!

Odd how clear traumatic memories like that are even 25 years later...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Oh, Blonde, that is terrible! 

I am sure it was nothing like that for MTO's wife. Maybe if she were here, reading your posts, she would think Denmark looks pretty good after all!

MTO, did she succeed in learning any Danish? Was that one of the issues that impeded her from gaining employment?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Duguesclin said:


> It is super easy for a European to live in the US. And you can still watch real football on TV, just in the morning instead of afternoon. That is how hard it gets!



It's not. You and I are exceptions. The majority of (western) Europeans would not choose immigration to the USA today. 

If I had to work American hours versus French hours I would be back in a hurry. Yea, svcks to pay $6 for gas but Sorbonne is a lot cheaper than where my kids are...


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

jld said:


> MTO, do you think you did anything wrong in your marriage?


Clearly I did. Indeed, at times, my mental health was fragile. I did what I could to make the move as straight forward as possible, but that may have been excessive. Also, as well as taking on too much work at home, I was having to work long hours to earn enough. We went to an MC, which did help both of us in some ways. My wife pulled me up on some things, where I had bad habits. That I did not have expectations for her beyond hanging out with the neighbours and some American ladies for the first few months may have given the impression that housework, jobs etc were my thing. Again, I put great emphasis on agreements and discussions we had, putting too much emphasis on words and doing that stuff, rather than taking talk as being for the sake of talking.

I suspect what she found hardest was being away from friends. She did make friends initially though, very well in fact.

She does speak excellent Danish. She did really well there. Her spending was also fairly modest and, though it took a year and a half, she started helping with the housework. The main thing that impeded her from getting a job was not ringing people or meeting people who were interested in giving her one - it was her choice. However, the rate at which I expected her to step up was a very patient one. 

You might feel I should not have expected her to do any housework for the first two years and not get a part time job for perhaps five years? That is a judgement call. I would not be willing to accept that, she would never have accepted that of me either. Furthermore, although neither of you address the eariler post, I very much doubt you would have considered it OK for a man ot take that time off completely. There comes a point where if you are not willing to contribute to a marriage, you should not be in it.

I have plans to bring an unemployed cousin over from England as he should be able to get a job here (most UK and US people manage it in a month or two), as his chances are better here.

jld, I am sorry you had a hard time. However, there were no kids, there is an American community in the locality, there were friends in the area, I was home every evening to tidy and cook dinner and everyone here speaks English and are not French. It was not easy for her, but I feel I am getting stick from you two have had bad experiences in different situations.

My wife is a decent woman and is holding down a job now we are separated. In marrying me, she married a man she did not really love. It was a mistake, but she suffered enough for that. 

The people who were most judgemental about her lifestyle when we were married were not ignorant, insensitive men (as I think you two seem to assume), but working mothers, American and otherwise.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Blonde said:


> I couldn't speak the language and I was unfamiliar with the neighborhoods and I was afraid to ride the becak to the grocery store (afraid of being kidnapped) and H got angry at me about having to take me to the grocery store.
> 
> When I birthed a baby there 6 months in, he left me in the hospital (strange language, strange customs, no telephone) until it was time to pick me up to go home. Did not visit at all (after telling me at the birth of a girl child "YOU got YOURSELF another girl"- he wanted a boy)
> 
> ...


That is a case of a man being a complete ****.

I realise I have to be careful now, as I picked up bad habits in the marriage to cope with the relationship. I became so accustomed to being lied to, that rather be bothered by it, I just took it as her making noise and not to take it seriously. I rationalised, it is a woman saying stuff that happens not to be true. Rather than blame her and face up to her lying to me all the time, I rationalized that making stuff up and saying it was something women tended to do.

It was nonsense, but the truth would have been very hurtful and in turn made me continuously angry. I should have been strong enough to accept that she lied to me a lot. It did not make her a bad person, just someone who could not live with the truth.

This does read like you have done something similar. Rather than accept that what happened to you was truely exceptionally bad behaviour (far worse than anything I put up with), you would rather think that men are just like that and cannot really help themselves. Certainly, you seem to have assumed that I must have treated my wife very badly and that her experience is in someone comparable to your experience. It can help to feel like you have moved on, but surely we know that women are just as capable of integrity and men are just as capable of behaving with decency and compassion.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

MTO,

I don't think you are understanding the point of JLD and my sharing.

JLD is married to IMO an esteemed "superhusband" of TAM who is at a level of husbandry very few men will ever achieve.

Even JLD with "superhusband" had a very hard time adjusting to a cross cultural situation.

It isn't your fault nor your deficiency that your W had a hard time. It is NORMAL. You shouldn't blame her nor yourself for it. It's just the way it is.

That isn't to say you don't have room for growth in preparation for future relationships. All M men should aspire to be superhusbands IMO 

IMO the fact that you are here and are willing to introspect already puts you over the 75th percentile among men. :smthumbup:


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> This does read like you have done something similar. Rather than accept that what happened to you was truely exceptionally bad behaviour (far worse than anything I put up with), you would rather think that men are just like that and cannot really help themselves. .


 Did you mindread, judge, and project like that with your W? 
There's an area with potential for improvement.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I would just encourage you, MTO, not to get trapped in bitterness. I am sure it is hard to go through a divorce. But try to work on healing, in preparation for, as Blonde said, future relationships.

Dug should be getting off work soon. He is over in Germany right now. I hope he can contribute more to this thread. I think there are mistakes he made that, looking back, he regrets. And we can surely all learn from one another's mistakes.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Blonde said:


> MTO,
> 
> I don't think you are understanding the point of JLD and my sharing.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the kind words. I was going to edit the entry to add that I like you and I knew full well that I was not in a position to judge your situation well. I am glad to see it was not necessary. My impression is, and I only write this about an impression gained from this misleading medium, that you remain more sceptical of men's stories on here generally that women's. I do realise people tend to show their weakest side on here and it is not the place to assess people.

Our MC seemed to think I qualified as a top husband. It clearly does not really matter in itself. Her best friend assred me I did everything I could, unfortuantely it is not performance art but trying to make a relationship work. Good enough would have been great. I would rather be at the bottom on account of the others being fantastic! 

I am sorry to pick on you again, Blonde, but..... The 75th percentile among men, where would that put me in the overall percentil of spouses


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

jld said:


> I would just encourage you, MTO, not to get trapped in bitterness. I am sure it is hard to go through a divorce. But try to work on healing, in preparation for, as Blonde said, future relationships.
> 
> Dug should be getting off work soon. He is over in Germany right now. I hope he can contribute more to this thread. I think there are mistakes he made that, looking back, he regrets. And we can surely all learn from one another's mistakes.


Thanks for the advice. I think I have several friends who are thinking I should be more bitter TBH! I am fortunate that things are working out much better for me. Looking at pictures of me from a year ago, it is remarkable how haggard I looked that and fresher now. I think it is working out much better for my wife now that she is truely forced to be independent.

I do genuinely think the travel hurried things up rather than was the real cause. One issue I can see, that is hard to explain, is that I did put to much weight on words - so the pre-marital discussions (and post) meant a great deal to me. In reality, they were a diversion - I confess that I do not know how I could have done that differently (as I genuinely could not put it right next time).


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Mr The Other said:


> Their advice was rubbish. They absolutely assumed good faith and that sure both sides would care for the well-being of the other and be willing to make some effort as long as they are appreciated? Their advice was, "have you not explained it to her? What did she say........but that makes no sense, you must have misunderstood".
> 
> .


I've coined the wisdom "People will always be more generous with someone else's resources."

Over the years, I have noticed advice among the lines of "give the benefit of the doubt" "second chance" and so on. If you notice that this same, seemingly, generous person with your situations does not practice the same level of generosity in their own situations and you inquire you are met with the wall of "But this is different."

So this is we also have the wisdom "Actions speak louder than words."


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

NextTimeAround said:


> I've coined the wisdom "People will always be more generous with someone else's resources."
> 
> Over the years, I have noticed advice among the lines of "give the benefit of the doubt" "second chance" and so on. If you notice that this same, seemingly, generous person with your situations does not practice the same level of generosity in their own situations and you inquire you are met with the wall of "But this is different."
> 
> So this is we also have the wisdom "Actions speak louder than words."


There does seem to be an insight in that. 

I would say what I am referring to in my original post is more that we can learn techniques on here that seem to turn marriage into a competitive post or performance art. This also leads to people in good marriages thinking "wow, we rock at this, I am really clever", or when it does not work, assuming the problem is the oppposite sex often are not up to it.

Now, I am aware that this is very much against how jld and Blonde see it and I have huge respect for them. They more qualified in these matters than I am. 

In fact, it seems if both in a marraige are reasonably decent and try their best, it tends to work and if they are not it does not.


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