# Role of grandparents/extended family in a marriage



## Scannerguard

This has been a topic that's been knockign around in my mind for awhile. I wasn't sure how to express it so that's why I knocked it around.

But what role do you think grandparents play in keeping a marriage together?

Here's something I have noticed - with grandparents being "younger" nowadays, it seems that most young couples are more "on their own" than ever with raising kids. I know that's just a generalization but I think it's true.

I was talking to another person in the Divorce forum who's circumstances sounded similiar to my own. So darn busy, no time for each other. . .nobody to even help the couple have some regular time for each other.

I was apprehensive about bringing this up because I would never want my parents or her parents to feel bad about our divorce. . .because I am sure they feel bad enough. But sometimes, it really felt like we were dying trying to keep it altogether. And they saw our marriage declilning and never once did they offer, "How about we give you guys some time together?" We got like one night out, just to go out, the two of us, in like 10 years. It would have been nice if either set of the grandparents said, 

"We would love to have the kids 1 weekend/month/quarter to do x, y, z with."

Now. . .that being said, they were always there for emergencies. I don't want to downplay their contribution/safety net contribution. But my stb-x, whether rightfully so or not, often interpreted that us asking was a burden.

But I think my stb-x (not me so much) often expected more out of them. . .that when she was younger, her grandmother was like a second mother to her and was over there a lot. Now, grandparents are often off in Florida, doing triathlons and living their second youth.

What obligation do you think as grandparents/parents do you have to your kids in maintaining a marriage?

I was apprehensive of posting this because I know I can hear it now - "Dam Generation X'ers - some dam entitled!" ANd that's not what I mean. I don't expect anything. It's just that my and her parents seem to have more "help" around and took it for granted.

Okay, what say?

Again, I do believe the success of any marriage rests squarely on the couple, not other people. But as the African Proverb states - "It takes a whole village to raise a kid." In that village are extended family/grandparents.


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## Blanca

Ive been mulling over this same topic, too. Im thinking of having kids in a few years and Ive been debating on moving next to my family. There are pro's and cons to it. On the one hand it would be nice to have help, but on the other hand, family can mettle and make things worse. I have one sister that lives right by my mom and it has helped her because my mom will watch the kids while they go out. On the other hand, it has brought a lot of stress for her and my BIL basically avoids my mom now. My other sister refuses to live close to family. She and her H have raised their kids just fine on there own. She will ask my mom to come up and watch the kids if they are leaving for an extended period of time, maybe once every couple of years, but not often. 

Having family close by can help, but like anything it can cause problems. there's just no way around having to deal with problems. You have to cope with some problem one way or another.


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## greenpearl

Western culture is so different from Eastern culture. I know that in North America or Europe, grandparents never help looking after their grandchildren. They only like to visit and have fun. In China and Taiwan, if young parents are working and having trouble looking after their children, they leave their children to their parents to raise. So a lot of grandparents take care of their grandchildren here. The young couple sometimes give their parents some money. But when our parents are old and sick, it is also our responsibility to look after them and support them. I don't think Western parents expect any financial help from their children. I have to send money home every year to my old parents, I am a girl, I don't have to do it. But I want my parents' life to be good. 
We don't send money to my husband's parents since they are Canadian. We phone them every week. 

We decided not to have kids because we have nobody to help us here in Taiwan since both families are far away. My husband doesn't want children because he thinks children are killers of romance. His family laughs at him for being immature. I don't care what they think about our decision. My husband always tells me that he is happy being away from his family. They annoy him. His mother still tries to nag him even though he is so far away. But my mother-in-law did compliment him for one thing he did. She said the only right thing he did in his life was by marrying me.  He left their religion. He left his job.( He used to be an accountant in Canada) He left Canada. He doesn't want to be a father. He doesn't want to master Chinese. So many things they are not happy with him. 

Sigh, little do they know that their son has a very balanced and organized life( with my help though! !!!!!


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## greenpearl

From your post, I decided to help my son look after his children if one day he needs my help. My son is 13 years old. He lives with his father. My son is a MAN now, he gives me the feeling that he can protect me. How come I always like men to protect me? I even want my son to protect me. He likes to joke, too. He always tells me jokes when we see each other on the weekends!


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## greeneyeddolphin

I think grandparents should be available to help in emergencies whenever possible, definitely. I know that I could call my parents at work if I have an emergency and they will drop everything to help me out. In fact, I just did that a couple of weeks ago when I had a flat tire on my way to pick up the kids from school. I had no one else who could pick them up, and the last time the tires were put on the car, they tightened the lug nuts so tight that I couldn't get them off. My parents left work to come get me to get my kids, although I was fortunate enough that a friend drove by and picked me up before my parents could get there. 

Anyway...I think grandparents should offer to take the kids every now and then, but not so much for the parents benefit. I think it's important that grandparents and grandchildren have a bond, a relationship. The best way for them to build that is to spend time together, doing things that interest both of them. 

I also think, though, that the grandparents should, to a point, determine how much time they want to spend with their grandchildren. I mean, for example, my grandparents had 7 grandchildren. If they took grandkids for weekends, they'd either have had a full house on a weekend, or never have had a weekend to themselves (all the grandkids are grown now, and most of us have kids of our own now). 

As to whether grandparents should offer of the parents should ask...I think it's a two way street. I think sometimes the grandparents should offer, but I also think it's fine for the parents to ask, so long as the parents understand that the grandparents have the right to say no, or suggest another time or date. 

I also think it's very easy for either side to overstep and assume things. I know for me, right now we're living with my parents, and they often overstep and say or do things that I don't feel they should be as grandparents. I frequently have to bite my tongue, knowing that they don't intend to undermine me, and knowing that if I say something, they could take it the wrong way and refuse to help me out in the future. So I think, especially when it comes to something like this, communication is important.


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## Scannerguard

Greenpearl,

Thanks for your contribution (and others too - atrucker's girl seems to be that balance between East and West).

I think that's what I am getting at. . .the cultural change that American Society has undergone and what is really culturally expected of a young couple.

Like my stb-x pointed out, it was different when she was younger. That being said, it seemed like when I was a kid, my grandparents were "Old" at 45 - had gray hair, glasses. . .nowadays, with hair dye being good, face lifts, well, Generation X lost a lot of that transitory help that was so often depended on.

Yes, Greenpearl, I have read that sociologically, Western society is very different.

Even in "primitive" (I hate to use that word because it can be disrespectful if not presented the right way), the men are out hunting, the women are out gathering, and the grandparents are raising the grandkids/doing "daycare" during the day.

So the idea that a young couple raises kids is relatively a new development. They were only supposed to "Make kids", not raise them.

I am not saying this caused the fall of my marriage. I am NOT SAYING THAT AT ALL. Of that, I take 50% responsibility as obviously there are happy moms and dads here with 6 kids.

But I see all these "economic/cultural" things that "added up" to our demise. Stagnant household income, Property taxes nearing $9,000/year for essentially a 275K house (and yes, perhaps we could have lived in a smaller house and just crammed the boys together), longer work weeks, higher healthcare costs, no spousal time, no extended family support, or at least irregular. . .I think we finally realized forces were just conspiring against us as a family.

Thanks for the thoughts.


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## Scannerguard

PS: I wanted to add that both of our parents, it rarely (if ever with mine) occurred to call us up and say,

"How about we take the kids Friday night? They could come over and play cards with us."

But if you asked, they would oblige.

I don't know. . .that's something I have always admired culturally about Hispanic and Asian families. They seem to want little kids around - nieces, nephews, grandsons, granddaughters, cousins. They like big families. . .think those extended family members add value to their lives.

WASP's seem to really not value family as much.

They think kids are pains in the keesters. (and they are a lot, lol)

I say this speaking as an American WASP.


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## 4sure

People can't mind read if you need time without the kids ask grandparents. All they can say is no, but they may say, "I would love to." Some parents don't want to overstep the boundaries with their adult children. If you don't say anything then they won't know what you need.

I can't wait to be a grandma. I will be an awesome grandma.


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## Scannerguard

4sure:

Good for you! I wish you well.

BTW, with regards to meddling, here was our opinion:

Please meddle!

I can remember so much hearing from MIL (god bless her soul, I loved her very much and still do). . ."I don't want to horn in on you guys." She'd come over and leave as quick as she got there. I don't know what I could have done to make her feel more welcome. I would stay and joke with her, or just leave and let her be with her daughter and do my thing.

Never hardly any advice on parenting, anything. 

No wisdom from that generation, either side.

LOL. . .I can remember the first night home with our newborn, our first child and they came over and left and we both looked at each other thinking:

"Ummmm. . .why are *we* in charge? They left hte baby alone with 2 people who don't know squat, how to even change a diaper? This is like neglect or something." LOL.

Didn't seem right to leave our baby with the parents, LOL.


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## Scannerguard

4Sure,

And yes, I would tell my wife that but she had this issue about asking.

She was like the wallflower girl at the dance waiting to be asked, I guess, and resentful she never got asked, instead of asking the shy boy from Biology if he wanted to dance.

It's a whole mother/daughter dynamic I never understood. My stb-x said she would often act like a martyr when she did provide help.

Personally, I never saw it. She never seem to "martyr" herself for that. . .but again, the mother/daughter dynamic. . .what was I to do? Take the MIL's side?

I may as well taken a revolver to my head.

I do know women do those "women-women" interactions behind men's backs. SO it was entirely possible.


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## Scannerguard

PS:

(sorry to keep interjecting but it resurrected memories)

Here's how it went:

SCANNER: Hi Mom. It's Scannerguard. XXXXX is sick today. I can actually stay home with him this morning but this afternoon, I Have a shift at work. Could you come over at 2:30 p.m.? STB-X will be home around 6 p.m. to relieve you.

MIL: Sure. I would love to. What time do you need me?

SCANNER: 2:30 is fine. Or even 3:00. Whatever works for you. Now, if it's really too much of an imposition, please say so. I can make other arrangements.

MIL: Not at all.

Later on

STB-X: I talked to Mom today and she said she had to cancel her art class at 2 p.m. because YOU asked her to watch XXXXX.

SCANNERGUARD: Well, I didn't know that. I would have made other arrangement for sure. I thought I made that clear to her.

STB-X: Well, you didn't. And I had to listen to *sighs* on the other end of my phone.

I actually confronted MIL one time about it - was she being 2-faced about asking. She totally denied it.

But again, that IS a female for you. You can never trust a woman when confronted about female-female interactions. It's like that have this whole secret world they won't let men in on.

Anyway, for like 2-3 years, I had to submit all relief-parenting requests through my wife and she would ask her mother. (my parents lived like 90 minutes away).

LOL. . just another page from the Book of the Scannerguard Dysfunctional Family.

I don't know. . .maybe I did impose too much. She was always there for us and maybe 1x/month she'd be there to help out with the sniffles, etc. Her husband would I guess complain when she was gone too, and that's what my wife heard but I think that was an act too. . .I think he was happy to have the place to himself and eat a hoagie. But she would always say, "I have to get back to FIL."

Oh well, not my problem anymore. . .just like to think about the various factors.


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## cherrypie18

Scannerguard said:


> PS:
> 
> (sorry to keep interjecting but it resurrected memories)
> 
> Here's how it went:
> 
> SCANNER: Hi Mom. It's Scannerguard. XXXXX is sick today. I can actually stay home with him this morning but this afternoon, I Have a shift at work. Could you come over at 2:30 p.m.? STB-X will be home around 6 p.m. to relieve you.
> 
> MIL: Sure. I would love to. What time do you need me?
> 
> SCANNER: 2:30 is fine. Or even 3:00. Whatever works for you. Now, if it's really too much of an imposition, please say so. I can make other arrangements.
> 
> MIL: Not at all.
> 
> Later on
> 
> STB-X: I talked to Mom today and she said she had to cancel her art class at 2 p.m. because YOU asked her to watch XXXXX.
> 
> SCANNERGUARD: Well, I didn't know that. I would have made other arrangement for sure. I thought I made that clear to her.
> 
> STB-X: Well, you didn't. And I had to listen to *sighs* on the other end of my phone.
> 
> I actually confronted MIL one time about it - was she being 2-faced about asking. She totally denied it.
> 
> But again, that IS a female for you. You can never trust a woman when confronted about female-female interactions. It's like that have this whole secret world they won't let men in on.
> 
> Anyway, for like 2-3 years, I had to submit all relief-parenting requests through my wife and she would ask her mother. (my parents lived like 90 minutes away).
> 
> LOL. . just another page from the Book of the Scannerguard Dysfunctional Family.
> 
> I don't know. . .maybe I did impose too much. She was always there for us and maybe 1x/month she'd be there to help out with the sniffles, etc. Her husband would I guess complain when she was gone too, and that's what my wife heard but I think that was an act too. . .I think he was happy to have the place to himself and eat a hoagie. But she would always say, "I have to get back to FIL."
> 
> Oh well, not my problem anymore. . .just like to think about the various factors.


What I learned from my MIL and her whole family pretty much, is that they will do you a favor just so they can brag how they had to give this and that up to help you out. Some people only help so throw it in your face later. 

So I learned to never ask her to help me with anything, and they disliked me even more because I made decisions or did stuff without consulting with them first, asking their opinion or their help. I am the kind of person who doesn't usually ask people for favors, unless it's my mom 

As for my parents, they always taught me that if I'm going to do someone a favor, I should do it from the heart and then forget about it. That way life is easier and you don't get disappointed when they don't return the favor. 

Anyway so even if I was still with my husband and we needed someone to watch my baby, unless it was truly an emergency I would not ask his mother. If she offered then I'd let her do it, but not ask her for a favor. 

Right now I live with my parents and they're the best. I can leave my baby with my mom any time and even go to the movies with a friend, and nothing will be thrown at my face. 

It is a cultural thing though. In most counties in Europe, where culture is strictly being preserved, grandparents watch their grand kids with love. My cousin's kid practically lives with his grandma because both his parents work...a lot.. He even travels with the grandparents. Sometimes stays with them for a whole month.


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## DawnD

I dunno. We are military, and have never been close enough to either of our families to help us out with the kids. But I do find other couples and rotate with them. You have two kids and I have two kids. I will watch yours this Friday night and Saturday morning if you watch mine next Friday night and Saturday morning. You learn really quick who repays the favor and who doesn't  I do realize that now when my H has a day off from work and I don't have class, we take full advantage. Kids are in school , we are OUT. Gym first for both of us in the morning and then out to do something fun together.

I don't know how it usually goes with families that are all within driving distance, but I suppose that could be nice!


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## greenpearl

Scannerguard said:


> PS: I wanted to add that both of our parents, it rarely (if ever with mine) occurred to call us up and say,
> 
> "How about we take the kids Friday night? They could come over and play cards with us."
> 
> But if you asked, they would oblige.
> 
> I don't know. . .that's something I have always admired culturally about Hispanic and Asian families. They seem to want little kids around - nieces, nephews, grandsons, granddaughters, cousins. They like big families. . .think those extended family members add value to their lives.
> 
> WASP's seem to really not value family as much.
> 
> They think kids are pains in the keesters. (and they are a lot, lol)
> 
> I say this speaking as an American WASP.


Scannerguard

I don't agree with the way Western society is going. People are becoming more and more distant from each other. 
I just read something yesterday, it said that in England, couples use a lot of messages and emails to communicate with each other. They spend about 4 hours together in a week(one hour is watching TW) people are spending a lot of time working and commuting, it is really not healthy for marriage and family life. 

There are things in Chinese culture I hate, but for family life, I think Chinese culture is doing a job I wish to stay. We are a big family. We are taught to look after each other. Older siblings are taught to look after the younger ones. One day my husband pointed out to me, since I am the youngest out of five, I had always been protected and looked after, that's why I like to seek protection. 

In Taiwan, it is more traditional since Taiwan didn't go through cultural revolution. Chairman Mao destroyed a lot of good culture in China, but Taiwan still has it. Women are more submissive and traditional( they are still vain and demanding though, that's international, the woman I mentioned in a different post had been influenced by ten years of western culture)). A lot of adults still live with their parents because they feel the need to look after their parents( a lot of daughters-in-law don't like it). People who are single, have a job in the same city, they will live with their parents, no rent, Mom cooks and does the laundry. What a wonderful life for them. That's why Taiwanese tea houses and coffee shops are full of people who are in their 20's or 30's, since they have a lot of money to spend. We have a law that adult children can't abandon their old parents, you know, there are still bad people, they will be put into jail because in Taiwan, it is still children's responsibility to look after their parents when they need help.

For grandchildren, grandparents just think it is their responsibility to look after them since they are not doing anything at home. So you see a lot of old grandparents take children to walk in the park or in the yard. It is very sweet. We just feel this is our responsibility to help out!


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## greenpearl

I still see some close family bond among witnesses. My husband grew up in a witness family, I went to visit them, I was surprised to see that they are different from what I read about westerners. My mother-in-law is looking after her mother-in-law. My sister-in-law stays at home and looks after the kids and manages their house. My uncles-in-law visit each other a lot. 

I don't agree with witnesses for the way they think that they are the only true religion, but I do respect the way they teach about family and marriage. I see a lot of happy marriages among witnesses. In the kingdom hall, you see them sit together and their interaction between each other, you know that they are bond with each other. I learned a lot from reading their magazines and books. They teach that women should be submissive and respectful towards their husbands, but they also teach men should provide and protect their wives. It is all in the their teaching. They are taught to make sure that their houses are clean and neat. Anyway, a lot of good things. I like the teaching they have about human life. But don't agree with some other things, and it was driving me crazy, so I stopped. 

But if a witness is not whacked out, they make good husbands and wives. My husband has no problem to stay faithful because that's what they teach men.


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## greenpearl

IMO, I think every culture has its good or bad, every religion has its good or bad, every person has something good or bad, I learn what good about them and apply that in my life. 

My goal is to achieve peace and happiness!!!


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## greeneyeddolphin

I don't know that it's western culture changing so much, as it is circumstances forcing changes. With the current economy, people are often moving far from family just to find jobs. That move requires changing family roles, since the physical distance prevents typical interactions. 

And I think for some families, closeness just isn't that important, or they don't know how to do it. I know, in my mom's family, she and her sister and two brothers were each told when they turned 18 that once they moved out, they were not welcome to come back home except for very brief visits. Whereas my dad's family, any of the 5 kids, as well as the 7 grandkids and our families, would be welcomed with open arms into my grandparents home if we needed a place to stay.

Families can be strange, sometimes.


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## Mom6547

Scannerguard said:


> This has been a topic that's been knockign around in my mind for awhile. I wasn't sure how to express it so that's why I knocked it around.
> 
> But what role do you think grandparents play in keeping a marriage together?


Exactly NONE.


> Here's something I have noticed - with grandparents being "younger" nowadays, it seems that most young couples are more "on their own" than ever with raising kids. I know that's just a generalization but I think it's true.
> 
> I was talking to another person in the Divorce forum who's circumstances sounded similiar to my own. So darn busy, no time for each other. . .nobody to even help the couple have some regular time for each other.


So damned busy, in my opinion, is an excuse. If the kids are small, then there is time after they are in bed. If kids are big, then they can be left alone. No one OWES anyone baby sitting. If you are lucky enough to have it, then that's it. You are lucky.

Marriages require that you MAKE time. Our anniversary date was gorp at the top of a beautiful mountain sitting a few feet away from our kids. We have had dates of picnics in the backyard, special gourmet dinners in our own kitchen, breakfasts in bed...

If you want to stay married, you MAKE time.



> I was apprehensive about bringing this up because I would never want my parents or her parents to feel bad about our divorce. . .because I am sure they feel bad enough. But sometimes, it really felt like we were dying trying to keep it altogether. And they saw our marriage declilning and never once did they offer, "How about we give you guys some time together?" We got like one night out, just to go out, the two of us, in like 10 years.


Did you ASK them? Hey are you free to babysit the kids? 

I am very sorry you are getting a divorce or are divorced. But if you could not arrange for a neighborhood teen or another parent barter for sitting in TEN YEARS, then I contend perhaps you weren't being super creative? I don't day this to make you feel bad. But maybe some person reading this... or you in your next go 'round might say ... gee why don't I make some rolls, grab the deli ham, pick up a bottle of boone's farm (cheap) and some plastic wine glasses and take my wife on a date in the backyard!

I mean... there very likely were other issues... but the time one makes no sense to me.



> It would have been nice if either set of the grandparents said,
> 
> "We would love to have the kids 1 weekend/month/quarter to do x, y, z with."
> 
> Now. . .that being said, they were always there for emergencies. I don't want to downplay their contribution/safety net contribution. But my stb-x, whether rightfully so or not, often interpreted that us asking was a burden.


I agree with you. It IS nice. But really, that is all it is. Gravy. For US the need to balance family and us time has been a really good, character building, closeness exercise. 

In my opinion, not all grandparents are the I want to spend a bunch of time with my grand kids types. They may have chosen to have kids. And they damned well better have stepped up to the plate and raised them properly. But they did not chose to have grand kids. If they would rather play golf or whatever, I feel that that really is THEIR choice.



> But I think my stb-x (not me so much) often expected more out of them. . .that when she was younger, her grandmother was like a second mother to her and was over there a lot. Now, grandparents are often off in Florida, doing triathlons and living their second youth.
> 
> What obligation do you think as grandparents/parents do you have to your kids in maintaining a marriage?


Well I think I have made myself clear. But just in case.. ZIP. In the obligation department, they have ZIP. 

I think if a grown parent thinks that their parents owe them support of this kind, are *obligated* then I think that that grown parent has a lovely opportunity for personal growth in the responsibility department! May your wife get there before her next marriage and/or parenting any more children!



> I was apprehensive of posting this because I know I can hear it now - "Dam Generation X'ers - some dam entitled!" ANd that's not what I mean. I don't expect anything. It's just that my and her parents seem to have more "help" around and took it for granted.
> 
> Okay, what say?
> 
> Again, I do believe the success of any marriage rests squarely on the couple, not other people. But as the African Proverb states - "It takes a whole village to raise a kid." In that village are extended family/grandparents.


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## Mom6547

greenpearl said:


> Western culture is so different from Eastern culture. I know that in North America or Europe, grandparents never help looking after their grandchildren.


That is not true At All. These kind of blanket generalizations irritate me. It certainly is not the EXPECTED cultural norm, in that the g'parents who chose not to would not be looked at askance. But many, many people have very active grandparents.


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## Mom6547

Scannerguard said:


> WASP's seem to really not value family as much.
> 
> They think kids are pains in the keesters. (and they are a lot, lol)
> 
> I say this speaking as an American WASP.


Can I be NOT offended by this by virtue of the fact that I am not Protestant, despite the fact that you are speaking to my culture as well? 

Shame on you. Speak for yourself. And if YOU are so not into family that you want to schlep your kids off on your folks, double shame on you. <--- Hopefully you get the exaggerated nature of this for fun.


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## greenpearl

vthomeschoolmom said:


> That is not true At All. These kind of blanket generalizations irritate me. It certainly is not the EXPECTED cultural norm, in that the g'parents who chose not to would not be looked at askance. But many, many people have very active grandparents.


Sorry if I have irritated you. 

Maybe I should have worded my sentence better. 

Please give me more details. 

People in the US are from the world. I am sure a lot of them still keep their culture. 

I have never lived in the States, so I really don't know anything. 

Thank you if you do give me some information about the culture in the States.


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## Mom6547

Greenpearl, your comment : "I know that in North America or Europe, grandparents never help looking after their grandchildren."

You are quite incorrect here with "grandparents never"... In the USA it runs the gammit. There are baby mammas who turn they children over to g'ma entire. Some families have children cared for by g'parents while parents work. Some families, like mine have g'parents who sit for date nights and will watch for doc appts and the like. My Mom, for example, (lives no where near me so we don't have access anyway) would consider it intruding to take on any kind of child care responsibility.

I think a fair differentiation in culture would be that grandparents are not *expected* to automatically be responsible for grand children's care.

S


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## cherrypie18

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I think a fair differentiation in culture would be that grandparents are not *expected* to automatically be responsible for grand children's care.
> 
> S


That's exactly it. But in most Eastern countries, and I don't just mean the far east, Arab countries and others included, it's not only that they're "expected" to care for the grandchildren, they're obligated to in a way. Just like the younger generation is expected as well as obligated to care for their elders. And if they refuse to do so they are looked down on because it's a "shame" for them. 

The West spreading their ways has changed that a little, but most families are still this way "I care for you, you care for me, I care for your child" and so on. 

I don't think there is a right or wrong in this. I mean, I think people should be as involved as possible in each others lives, but they should not cross boundaries and stick their nose up others personal matters. Something that people in these underdeveloped or developing countries are still learning.

I'm just generalizing here, because obviously not everyone in developed countries understands boundaries, and not everyone in underdeveloped ones sticks their noses in others lives. But in developed countries people are much more independent to live their lives as they please regardless of what their family or the society thinks.


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## greenpearl

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Greenpearl, your comment : "I know that in North America or Europe, grandparents never help looking after their grandchildren."
> 
> You are quite incorrect here with "grandparents never"... In the USA it runs the gammit. There are baby mammas who turn they children over to g'ma entire. Some families have children cared for by g'parents while parents work. Some families, like mine have g'parents who sit for date nights and will watch for doc appts and the like. My Mom, for example, (lives no where near me so we don't have access anyway) would consider it intruding to take on any kind of child care responsibility.
> 
> I think a fair differentiation in culture would be that grandparents are not *expected* to automatically be responsible for grand children's care.
> 
> S


Thank you. 

You are right. 

I shouldn't have said " grandparents never"

What you said is true.

Thank you for pointing out this, we do make a lot of mistakes when we say things. We should watch out. 

Never say "never", never say "all", never say "always", should say "some" and "sometimes". 

Learned!


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## Mom6547

greenpearl said:


> IMO, I think every culture has its good or bad, every religion has its good or bad, every person has something good or bad, I learn what good about them and apply that in my life.


Absolutely. I hope I did not stick my foot in it to say that I think there is anything WRONG with the Eastern cultural way. I just have a pet thing about broad generalizations. 



> My goal is to achieve peace and happiness!!!


Pick me! Can I have some?!? Thanks!


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## Mom6547

greenpearl said:


> Thank you.
> 
> You are right.
> 
> I shouldn't have said " grandparents never"
> 
> What you said is true.
> 
> Thank you for pointing out this, we do make a lot of mistakes when we say things. We should watch out.
> 
> Never say "never", never say "all", never say "always", should say "some" and "sometimes".
> 
> Learned!


Please, please, please feel free to call me when I do it. Cuz don't you know it is coming soon!


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## Mom6547

cherrypie18 said:


> That's exactly it. But in most Eastern countries, and I don't just mean the far east, Arab countries and others included, it's not only that they're "expected" to care for the grandchildren, they're obligated to in a way. Just like the younger generation is expected as well as obligated to care for their elders. And if they refuse to do so they are looked down on because it's a "shame" for them.


As greenpearl says, there is a good and bad in all cultures. From MY vantage point, given that I am in a culture for which having children is largely discretionary, I think it is a shame that g'parents, having lived their lives, need to be responsible like that. That is ME and MY situation talking. But care for the elderly, really failure to care for the elderly, SHOULD be shameful in my book. So the seeds of where our cultures come from can be right and wrong, depending on the situations we find ourselves in.



> The West spreading their ways has changed that a little, but most families are still this way "I care for you, you care for me, I care for your child" and so on.


Each to their own ability I think. It is when shame and obligation are the acting forces and not love and support that I begin to think things have gone awry.



> I don't think there is a right or wrong in this. I mean, I think people should be as involved as possible in each others lives, but they should not cross boundaries and stick their nose up others personal matters. Something that people in these underdeveloped or developing countries are still learning.


I could not agree with you more.


> I'm just generalizing here, because obviously not everyone in developed countries understands boundaries, and not everyone in underdeveloped ones sticks their noses in others lives. But in developed countries people are much more independent to live their lives as they please regardless of what their family or the society thinks.


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## greenpearl

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Absolutely. I hope I did not stick my foot in it to say that I think there is anything WRONG with the Eastern cultural way. I just have a pet thing about broad generalizations.
> 
> 
> 
> Pick me! Can I have some?!? Thanks!


There are many things bother me in eastern culture, they bother me so much that I don't want to go to Chinese forums. Do you know that Chinese are still crazy about having sons. Some parents force their sons to divorce their wives if the wives don't give birth to sons. I call them STUPID. Parents spoil their children so much that you can't imagine, one example was that a mother requested his son's university to find a nanny for him. STUPID again. Chinese men bicker that their wives are not virgins. And there are a lot, too many, can go on and on..........

Achieving peace is not easy, I view it like studying art. We need many years of practice to become good with what we are studying. 

Please don't think I am haughty. Lesson one: let go of ourselves, stop thinking about me. Start thinking about people around us and see what we can do to make them happy......
The best teachers are JESUS and BUDDHA.


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## Mom6547

greenpearl said:


> Please don't think I am haughty. Lesson one: let go of ourselves, stop thinking about me. Start thinking about people around us and see what we can do to make them happy......
> The best teachers are JESUS and BUDDHA.


You pick good teachers! Lesson... where are we? Three? Four? Laugh often. It serves many of the other goals, makes people happy, is healthy for us and rejuvenates the soul. 

This one life is all we have. How can we waste it with petty nonsense. Love is the only important thing.


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## greenpearl

vthomeschoolmom said:


> You pick good teachers! Lesson... where are we? Three? Four? Laugh often. It serves many of the other goals, makes people happy, is healthy for us and rejuvenates the soul.
> 
> This one life is all we have. How can we waste it with petty nonsense. Love is the only important thing.


Lesson two: 
I learned not to compare with people. I learned that I am just one drop of the water in the ocean. Nobody's life is perfect. They are rich or not, they are high educated or not , they are married or not, they are American or not, they are famous or not, they are powerful or not, nobody's life is perfect. We all have something missing in our lives(sorry I say all), so it is OK for me to have something lacking in my life. I can't have everything I want. My life is not always flowers. I learned not to think I am superior, I learned not to think I am inferior. I am just me. I am just a person in this world. This attitude helps me to be humble, helps me to be confident.


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## greenpearl

Lesson three:

I learned not to let small things bother me. Very often what bothers us is not that important, you can say 90% of the problems are little if real problems occur. One day, read this sentence, it says: If you doctor told you that you only had half a year to live, would you be bothered that your husband had forgotten your birthday? NO! Real problems appear, small problems disappear. As long as we are healthy and safe, we have money for food, clothes, and a shelter, we should be content. This really helped me. Now whenever I am bothered by something small. I tell myself that I am healthy, no accident happened today, my job is there, my husband is there, my home is there, stop feeling sorry!!!


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## greenpearl

Lesson four: I learned to smile to people. I used to have very dirty looks on my face since I was not happy. After reading the Bible, I learned to think: If I want people to be nice to me, I have to be nice to people first. If I want people to smile at me, I have to smile to people first. Smile is the most beautiful thing in the world. It helped me a lot. Now when I meet people, I have a big smile on my face! At least I make people feel warm!!!


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## greenpearl

Still, Jesus and Buddha are the best teachers, how about we stay here and learn together. I read books about life everyday. When I read something interesting, I will try to put in my posts. You have a lot to share too. People on TAM are nice, I learn a lot. 

I view TAM a big community, sometimes we disagree with each other. Sometimes we say something and hurt others not intentionally, please don't take it personally, and we can tell each other what bothers us. Communication is important, nobody is perfect. We are all individuals. We come from different background. So it is important for us to be forgiving and understanding in case something unpleasant happens.


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## Scannerguard

I think it's important to remember a good discussion (one that is 3 columns long so far, and in the parenting forum, to boot vs. the Sex Forum  ) can be had making cultural (or even gender) generalizations.

If we never generalized, you know what the world would be like with a discussion?

"Well, it depends" - would be the answer for everything.

And that's kind of a copout (vthomeschoolmom). Sorry my generalizations annoy you.

You know why they annoy you, don't they? Becuase often they are THAT GOOD.

Anyway, the subject was only meant to stimulate discussion that what should we (or should we not) do as a family or as a culture if we want to encourage the institution of marriage and see marriage succeed.

If you deduced this to mean that my marriage failed becuase of non-intervening grandparents, again, like I said, nothing could be further from the truth. I accept 50% blame for my failing marriage and I would never put that on my parents or her parents and am always willing to come forward with my part in contributing to my own divorce. If I didn't, how could I move on in a healthy manner?

That being said. . .I have learned that the cause of disease (in marriage or in the body, in government, in anything) is more complex than "Inside Out" or "Outside In."

That is, I could wax eloquent to the forum all day about what I did, and it was all our fault, and wow. . .aren't we so responsible in accepting responsibility?

(the ol' stoic "it was me" position)

But that's like saying, the reason someone got the flu and died was because he had a very poor immune system and was elderly and was just weak (an internal factor). Yeah, but perhaps if the man didn't venture out into public places, didn't practice good hygeine and good nutrition and proper sleep (external factors), that may have contributed to contracting the flu also?

So. . .we see a failed marriage/divorce.

We could all say, "Well, that was totally the couple's fault - 100% them and I wash my hands clean of it."

and cover our cultural ears and sing the Star Spangled Banner so we don't hear any other reasons why.

Or would a more mature viewpoint be that the death of a marriage may be from a host of cultural factors, economic factors, combining with a failure of the internal factors (the couple striving and having the chemistry to make it work)?

I personally think:

1. Economic factors
2. Cultural factors

factor more into the equation that what vthomeschoolmom suspects.

I know that flies in the face of the theory that we are all in control 100% of the time though, that our environment doesn't shape us. I believe we shape our environment (culture, economy) and our environment shapes us.

If I want my next marriage to succeed, I want to "hedge my bets" by creating the best environment for success as possible.

I think money and free time for the couple (environmental factors) contribute to the success of a marriage. I would want to have both in my next serious relationship - an abundance of time and money (with a good prenup, of course  ) and I will work to hedge my bets on the external conditions. Perhaps better family planning does too (we always had a young child, 5 and under, for the last 15 years. . .making it hard to find a paid baby sitter. . .maybe I am making excuses for my stb-x though)


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## greenpearl

I think money and free time for the couple (environmental factors) contribute to the success of a marriage. I would want to have both in my next serious relationship - an abundance of time and money (with a good prenup, of course ) and I will work to hedge my bets on the external conditions. Perhaps better family planning does too (we always had a young child, 5 and under, for the last 15 years. . .making it hard to find a paid baby sitter. . .maybe I am making excuses for my stb-x though)



Yeah, you got it. That's what we have. We are not rich, but we make more than we need, and the greatest thing for us, we have a lot of time together. Women are needy for time and attention. My husband really satisfies me in this area. 
And please, make sure she is a kind woman, not opinionated, easy to deal with! Pre-nup shows distrust, you have to be careful with this issue, to protect you, it is important, but to protect her feeling, not good. You can tell her that you don't feel like getting married if she is bothered or you are bothered. 
You are a big man, why is this little sister giving you advice? You know what to do! 
BE HAPPY FOR ME!!!


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## Mom6547

Scannerguard said:


> If we never generalized, you know what the world would be like with a discussion?


Well it seems to me that one would then be discussing the facts and realities of a case rather than stabbing at something that may or may not fit the generalization.

I remember being on a different marriage discussion group back in the bad old days of our marriage before we got a clue. There were a bunch of people who were saying men are like this and women are like that so you should.... I had to wade through a bunch of stuff that we WEREN'T like. Were the generalizations, generally/often true or correct? Probably. But they did not apply to us. As a matter of decision making and advice, I think generalizations are more distraction than help.




> And that's kind of a copout (vthomeschoolmom). Sorry my generalizations annoy you.
> 
> You know why they annoy you, don't they? Becuase often they are THAT GOOD.


I was not even referring to your generalizations, whatever they were. I even QUOTED the generalization to which I was referring. And it wasn't yours. So I am not sure why you think I was annoyed by you.

[snip]



> Or would a more mature viewpoint be that the death of a marriage may be from a host of cultural factors, economic factors, combining with a failure of the internal factors (the couple striving and having the chemistry to make it work)?


To what end... more down later.

[snip]
If I want my next marriage to succeed, I want to "hedge my bets" by creating the best environment for success as possible.
[/quote]

I guess I think this is a mistake.

When I see SUCCESSFUL marriages, I see all sorts of environments. I think the best course of action is work on one;s SELF as environments and circumstances are beyond our control. 

Rather than attempt to look outside for factors beyond our control, it makes more sense to me to develop skills; communication skills, problem solving skills, personal maturity and self soothing skills.... 

If one seeks to mold the ideal environment, it seems to me that one would face a life of frustration! You marry someone with parents who want to spend all their time with your children. Then when your child is a week old, they get hit by a bus. You try to insulate yourself from financial woes with savings and savings, then you lose your job and get cancer in the same week. By by savings.

I am not saying, of course, that you don't live your life with plans for the future and mold your environment to suit yourself to the best of your ability. But I DO think that the most important work to be done for the success of marriage would be one's self.





> I think money and free time for the couple (environmental factors) contribute to the success of a marriage. I would want to have both in my next serious relationship - an abundance of time and money (with a good prenup, of course  ) and I will work to hedge my bets on the external conditions.


And there is nothing wrong with that. But when I think back on the worst years of my marriage, we had gobs of money and endless time. Yet we were so unhappy! Now we have 2 kids, and we are flat broke. And we are deliriously happy. 

We learned how to love each other properly, how to handle the external factors together as a team. Now when life throws **** at us, instead of having them stress the marriage, the marriage is a source of strength to deal.



Those are my thoughts on the matter.


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