# What about a letter or "last chance" conversation?



## ButterflyGirl (4 mo ago)

I am wondering if it would be helpful to have one last conversation about this where it hopefully does NOT lead to a fight before I make a long-lasting decision. Is it unreasonable to make some sort of "ask"? Here is what I am thinking.

1. I understand you like your video games, but it is really making me lonely when you are up 7x a week until 3 or 4 in the morning and sleeping half the day away on weekends (and dead tired on work days). Are you willing to cut this down to 3x a week and come to bed before midnight on the others?
2. Are you willing to improve our love life where we have some sort of intimacy at least 2x a month instead of once every 3 months?
3. Are you willing to see a doctor in the next month about medical and mental health issues that are impacting our relationship and your health?
4. Are you willing to go with me to a counselor in the next 60 days?

And...........depending on the response (either a negative response to the questions OR blowing up and saying "we're not discussing this" or "take me or leave me"), making that part of the decision-making?


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

If you feel it would make a difference. But I’d be clear you expect to work together to make a change. Maybe say “ after thinking about the contents of the letter, let’s meet at…( name place and time) . If no response walk.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

It’s important when making a big decision like this to be sure you’ve explored all the options. If you want to try one last time then do so.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I'm conflicted here of what I'm about to suggest versus your directs asks; so take that for what it is. You don't get my tone or body language here, so figured I'd start with relaying that. I would suggest a face to face conversation - not a letter - so that it's not a one-way communication and can include shared tone and body language.

Here's where I feel conflicted. If you want to give this 'one last attempt' at communicating, there needs to be room for what he also needs from you combined with him coming up with solutions; not you just telling him what he needs to do differently. Based on what you have shared previously, he's already displayed defensiveness when you have broached topics in the past, therefore, pointing the finger of blame and telling him what he needs to do differently is likely to just narrow him back into a corner of defensiveness.

How about making it more of a broad conversation as a potential starting point that provides opportunity for an open conversation between you. I'd be thinking along the lines of, 'I want to make this marriage work with you, yet how we currently are is not working for me. What I need for us to continue is more time spent with you with greater shared intimacy and joint healthier lifestyles. If you also want to make this work, what do you need?'

My train of thought is that by coming at it from the broader view, he has the opportunity to listen and express himself including whether he has interest in continuing the marriage too as well as the opportunity for both of you to work out together what needs to change. There may be stuff he requires of you also. However, if the conversation looks like it's about to slide into defensiveness or an argument, just tell him straight, this is an opportunity to see if you can make this work together and that you're not interested in arguing as that's proven to be pointless and non-productive. Don't engage in back-and-forth argument. You have choice not to do that. However, that's not to be confused with if he tells you what he needs even if you think you're already providing that - you might need to hear his perspective of you also. As much as you want him to understand, you also need to understand him. In saying all of that, if you can have a productive discussion together, it will take some time to change the habits and dynamic and obviously actions speaker louder than words. Also during the conversation, you will both no doubt gauge tone and body language and if something irks you or doesn't sit right, then ask about it in that moment as a means to gain and offer fast feedback. I don't know whether this is a good suggestion or not, however, you get what you pay for 

Relaying from personal experience and a different dynamic to your marriage, with the point about tone and body language, fairly recently my husband and I were discussing an opportunity for him. During that, he expressed that my responses were supportive which he appreciated, yet he also questioned whether I was being nonchalant and explained why he felt this and what that meant. Okay, cool. I absorbed this and acknowledged that I understood how he could perceive me that way, and yet I had opportunity to explain where I was coming from; and when I did so, it made sense to him. It was a snippet of a bigger conversation, yet he raised how he felt with me in that moment, and it was helpful. No defensiveness needed. If he'd not expressed that, I'd be none the wiser that that's how I was coming across to him. And so, I'm all for 'fast feedback' in the moment.


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## Loves Coffee (4 mo ago)

I think letters are great. I write them on occasion to my wife. It allows you to say what you want to say without worrying about interruptions or getting derailed. You get to organize your thoughts. They also grab the attention of the recipient more because people don't get them often. It's special so hopefully conveys that specialness that they will be giving up by not working things out with you.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Also, if you are prepared to have one last conversation - I take that to mean that you are prepared to also let the cards fall / makes plans to move on if you're not BOTH engaged in making serious adjustments? I wrote BOTH meaning that you alone cannot 'fight' for a marriage that he's not also actively onboard with nurturing.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Words and letters are a waste of time. He’s never going to change. Only your actions will count.
Obviously you have trouble making decisions.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

No real advice here. Just sympathy.

Hoping the best for you but many men in a similar situation do not realize what they have or what they have to lose.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

I glanced at one of your other threads and because you have been married to your husband for over 20 years, I think giving him this might be helpful. But, if you really want him to commit,and if he doesn't that's a dealbreaker for you, you need to set that boundary, or you'll always be writing letters with no change on his part.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

ButterflyGirl said:


> I am wondering if it would be helpful to have one last conversation about this where it hopefully does NOT lead to a fight before I make a long-lasting decision. Is it unreasonable to make some sort of "ask"? Here is what I am thinking.
> 
> 1. I understand you like your video games, but it is really making me lonely when you are up 7x a week until 3 or 4 in the morning and sleeping half the day away on weekends (and dead tired on work days). Are you willing to cut this down to 3x a week and come to bed before midnight on the others?
> 2. Are you willing to improve our love life where we have some sort of intimacy at least 2x a month instead of once every 3 months?
> ...


Once you have firmly made up your mind.

Hand him a letter outlining your feelings and "bottom line." Include the option of marriage counseling "if he wants to save the marriage." Make it clear to him that in your mind he has drifted off and left your marriage. That you would like him back, but it is now on him to save the marriage if he wants one.

Good luck.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

“for almost a decade I have had the same issues which aren't getting any better”

Those are your own words. It obviously isn’t my life or choice but my opinion is that you are completely wasting your time. Even if he does change it will be short lived and another year will have gone by. Respect your time and life enough to know that enough is enough.


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## ButterflyGirl (4 mo ago)

TexasMom1216 said:


> It’s important when making a big decision like this to be sure you’ve explored all the options. If you want to try one last time then do so.


I feel like after over 2 decades together, it warrants being sure.


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## ButterflyGirl (4 mo ago)

heartsbeating said:


> I'm conflicted here of what I'm about to suggest versus your directs asks; so take that for what it is. You don't get my tone or body language here, so figured I'd start with relaying that. I would suggest a face to face conversation - not a letter - so that it's not a one-way communication and can include shared tone and body language.
> 
> Here's where I feel conflicted. If you want to give this 'one last attempt' at communicating, there needs to be room for what he also needs from you combined with him coming up with solutions; not you just telling him what he needs to do differently. Based on what you have shared previously, he's already displayed defensiveness when you have broached topics in the past, therefore, pointing the finger of blame and telling him what he needs to do differently is likely to just narrow him back into a corner of defensiveness.
> 
> ...


YES to everything you said! I want this to be a fair conversation. I probably should have set the stage better with my post and not just started with the list. I absolutely want it to be fair so face-to-face probably would be better. I will agree that if there is something he needs from me, it needs to be said and I need to be open to it. I agree with you on all you have said! Am I unreasonable with the actual requests?


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## ButterflyGirl (4 mo ago)

Loves Coffee said:


> I think letters are great. I write them on occasion to my wife. It allows you to say what you want to say without worrying about interruptions or getting derailed. You get to organize your thoughts. They also grab the attention of the recipient more because people don't get them often. It's special so hopefully conveys that specialness that they will be giving up by not working things out with you.


Thank you. I think I am going to write things down for MYSELF, but then use it to guide a conversation. I definitely am one that needs to think things through in advance and gather thoughts. Depending on the conversation, I might also do a letter acknowledging what was discussed.


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## ButterflyGirl (4 mo ago)

Mr.Married said:


> “for almost a decade I have had the same issues which aren't getting any better”
> 
> Those are your own words. It obviously isn’t my life or choice but my opinion is that you are completely wasting your time. Even if he does change it will be short lived and another year will have gone by. Respect your time and life enough to know that enough is enough.


Why do I struggle with this so much??? I don't know. It has been a decade. I think it's our history and that we have been together for so long, just giving up is HARD. Am I wrong to feel this way? Also, if I see even one small tiny step in the right direction I take it as a positive sign and it keeps me hanging in there. I think those are the reasons I still keep hanging on.


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## ButterflyGirl (4 mo ago)

Young at Heart said:


> Once you have firmly made up your mind.
> 
> Hand him a letter outlining your feelings and "bottom line." Include the option of marriage counseling "if he wants to save the marriage." Make it clear to him that in your mind he has drifted off and left your marriage. That you would like him back, but it is now on him to save the marriage if he wants one.
> 
> Good luck.


Thank you. Definitely like the idea of including MC. He will be defensive about it, as he has been before, and likely will tell me if I'm not happy then to go. But yes, I do plan on including MC. That's AFTER I have made up my mind - which I still haven't and is a huge problem for me that I can't.


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## ButterflyGirl (4 mo ago)

*Deidre* said:


> I glanced at one of your other threads and because you have been married to your husband for over 20 years, I think giving him this might be helpful. But, if you really want him to commit,and if he doesn't that's a dealbreaker for you, you need to set that boundary, or you'll always be writing letters with no change on his part.


I feel like I owe it to both of us after such a long relationship. I am having trouble setting that boundary (( WHich is the crux of my problem.


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## ButterflyGirl (4 mo ago)

Marc878 said:


> Words and letters are a waste of time. He’s never going to change. Only your actions will count.
> Obviously you have trouble making decisions.


YES ((( I do. That is the crux of the issue here. Why am I struggling so much? I think it is two-fold: we have been together 27 years, that's a long time to just let go. ANd I do care about it. I thought people only left relationships when they stopped loving people - not because of problems. I know that is faulty thinking, but it has always been what is ingrained in my mind for whatever reason. Second, I see him make tiny steps in the right direction and think it will lead to more. Third, he reminds me of "in sickness and in health" and I feel bad. But doesn't that also imply that with "in health" we have a role to play in taking care of ourselves for the other person? I would never leave someone who became ill, disabled, etc. due to no fault of their own, but when they choose to not do anything (or microsteps)? I would really love for anyone to share their thoughts on any of these issues and if these thoughts are indeed faulty thinking. Maybe that would be what I need to actually make a decision.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

@ButterflyGirl I think you are doing the right thing writing a letter.

I don’t look at it so much as what might or might not save your marriage, but more from a standpoint of what YOU need to do to be ok with the next step (good or bad).

If you do end in divorce, would you want to look back knowing you made this attempt? I personally would want to know I did everything I could.

I don’t know your full backstory, but just the idea of putting your needs out there in a last effort to save your marriage is an admirable thing. I wish more people would do that.

Best of luck to you.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

ButterflyGirl said:


> YES ((( I do. That is the crux of the issue here. Why am I struggling so much? I think it is two-fold: we have been together 27 years, that's a long time to just let go. ANd I do care about it. I thought people only left relationships when they stopped loving people - not because of problems. I know that is faulty thinking, but it has always been what is ingrained in my mind for whatever reason. Second, I see him make tiny steps in the right direction and think it will lead to more. Third, he reminds me of "in sickness and in health" and I feel bad. But doesn't that also imply that with "in health" we have a role to play in taking care of ourselves for the other person? I would never leave someone who became ill, disabled, etc. due to no fault of their own, but when they choose to not do anything (or microsteps)? I would really love for anyone to share their thoughts on any of these issues and if these thoughts are indeed faulty thinking. Maybe that would be what I need to actually make a decision.


It’s not uncommon to stay in a bad situation. A lot love on hopium. Some because of fear of the unknown.
People past a certain age don’t change. They may for a short period but revert back.
You stay in this because you want to. Until that changes you’ll keep yourself stuck.


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

It's been my experience with a decade of reading on this forum that letters rarely ever accomplish anything.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

I'm more of a fan of face-to-face than letters.


ButterflyGirl said:


> Definitely like the idea of including MC. He will be defensive about it, as he has been before, *and likely will tell me if I'm not happy then to go*. But yes, I do plan on including MC. That's AFTER I have made up my mind


Do you mean go to counselling on your own, or "go" as in end the marriage?

Why leave MC until after you make up your mind? It might change things, if you get the right counselor. It has to be one who's expert in this kind of couple work.

Trying to get him to agree to your list of changes probably won't work. He'll either refuse, or he'll agree and then not follow through. Sorry. 

The work would be about finding something corresponding that _he_ wants to be different between you. And it probably needs a third party to dig that out. If you just have your list of wants, and you don't have _his_ list, you're in a dead end.


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## Loves Coffee (4 mo ago)

ButterflyGirl said:


> Why do I struggle with this so much??? I don't know. It has been a decade. I think it's our history and that we have been together for so long, just giving up is HARD. Am I wrong to feel this way? Also, if I see even one small tiny step in the right direction I take it as a positive sign and it keeps me hanging in there. I think those are the reasons I still keep hanging on.


Well, it's easier to say detached on a forum and harder to do in life because it's more personal and emotions take a long time to deal with. I think I saw in another post you made that he said something along the lines of you just have to take it or leave it. That's a pretty callous attitude to take towards someone you love for something that is changeable. 

I recommend making it crystal clear that this is a last stand of sorts but don't painstakingly go over every wrong from the beginning of time to try to paint a picture or come across as nagging because it will just derail the message. I recommend sticking to the message that a, b, c is what I need to continue this relationship and I need to see action taken in a short amount of time and acknowledgement of wrong. Even if it's a waste of time as other posters have said, it will still give you closure that you did everything you could.


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## 342693 (Mar 2, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> It’s important when making a big decision like this to be sure you’ve explored all the options. If you want to try one last time then do so.


Wish I could give you 1000 likes. Too often a person leaves a relationship too soon to chase greener grass. And by the time they realize their mistake, the other person has moved on. Aside from abuse and infidelity, most relationships can be saved if both parties want to. But for some, it's easier to discard and move on...then repeat.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

ButterflyGirl said:


> I feel like I owe it to both of us after such a long relationship. I am having trouble setting that boundary (( WHich is the crux of my problem.


You probably should discuss boundaries together, and then he can see where you struggle with that. Sometimes, spouses set boundaries without discussing it with each other, and then the offending spouse doesn't realize they've crossed them. Good luck with your plan.


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## ButterflyGirl (4 mo ago)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> @ButterflyGirl I think you are doing the right thing writing a letter.
> 
> I don’t look at it so much as what might or might not save your marriage, but more from a standpoint of what YOU need to do to be ok with the next step (good or bad).
> 
> ...


That is a good point and I see it from that standpoint (i.e., what I need to do to be o.k. with the next step). The only thing I know that I could do is to let him keep what he is doing in the name of "compromise" and not say a word about it. Which is not working so well - works well for HIM, not so much for me. And he knows this. Which is what makes it all so frustrating.


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## ButterflyGirl (4 mo ago)

Marc878 said:


> It’s not uncommon to stay in a bad situation. A lot love on hopium. Some because of fear of the unknown.
> People past a certain age don’t change. They may for a short period but revert back.
> You stay in this because you want to. Until that changes you’ll keep yourself stuck.


It is probably some of both for me (hopium + the unknown). I know I am making a conscious choice. I need to get past it, whatever is creating me being stuck.


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## ButterflyGirl (4 mo ago)

Laurentium said:


> I'm more of a fan of face-to-face than letters.
> 
> Do you mean go to counselling on your own, or "go" as in end the marriage?
> 
> ...


Based on what he has told me several times before, if I am not happy, then I can go and find someone else. He thinks he either can't make any changes or won't make any - or maybe a bit of both. Honestly, him saying that was pretty hurtful. LIke I'm not even worth fighting for. But that's another whole issue. I know it's a long shot that he would agree to any of it, much less follow through, but I feel like i have to put it out there. The counseling he went several years back to two sessions and said never again, even if it was one he chose.


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## ButterflyGirl (4 mo ago)

Loves Coffee said:


> Well, it's easier to say detached on a forum and harder to do in life because it's more personal and emotions take a long time to deal with. I think I saw in another post you made that he said something along the lines of you just have to take it or leave it. That's a pretty callous attitude to take towards someone you love for something that is changeable.
> 
> I recommend making it crystal clear that this is a last stand of sorts but don't painstakingly go over every wrong from the beginning of time to try to paint a picture or come across as nagging because it will just derail the message. I recommend sticking to the message that a, b, c is what I need to continue this relationship and I need to see action taken in a short amount of time and acknowledgement of wrong. Even if it's a waste of time as other posters have said, it will still give you closure that you did everything you could.


Yes, that is true.............there have been "take it or leave it" statements made before. ANd it definitely is pretty emotional being in a situation IRL vs. reading about it on a forum. I think I know what his response will be - exactly what it was before, "find someone else" rather than try to look at each of the things. Can you provide thoughts on whether or not the things on my list are reasonable?


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## ButterflyGirl (4 mo ago)

SCDad01 said:


> Wish I could give you 1000 likes. Too often a person leaves a relationship too soon to chase greener grass. And by the time they realize their mistake, the other person has moved on. Aside from abuse and infidelity, most relationships can be saved if both parties want to. But for some, it's easier to discard and move on...then repeat.


I think about that "grass is greener" quote A LOT. Which is part of what keeps me stuck. What if it isn't GREENER?!?! Not that it is green right now where it is, but it's not all bad either despite the problems at hand. We do enjoy each others company, have 3 kids together, have built a life together, financially sound, etc., so it's not ALL brown grass where I am. Part of my fear is thinking leaving is the best thing and finding out just what you said - they realize it was a mistake. A HUGE, huge fear of mine.


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## Loves Coffee (4 mo ago)

ButterflyGirl said:


> Can you provide thoughts on whether or not the things on my list are reasonable?


Sure.



ButterflyGirl said:


> 1. I understand you like your video games, but it is really making me lonely when you are up 7x a week until 3 or 4 in the morning and sleeping half the day away on weekends (and dead tired on work days). Are you willing to cut this down to 3x a week and come to bed before midnight on the others?
> 2. Are you willing to improve our love life where we have some sort of intimacy at least 2x a month instead of once every 3 months?
> 3. Are you willing to see a doctor in the next month about medical and mental health issues that are impacting our relationship and your health?
> 4. Are you willing to go with me to a counselor in the next 60 days?


1. I used to game a lot and I attribute my gaming as partially to blame for the deterioration to one of my earlier relationships. This became such a phenomenon once MMORPG's were created that there were groups created called "Everquest Widows" and "Gaming Widows." Anyway, going from 7x a week to 3 is a pretty big jump if he's that addicted. To you it feels like hours, but to him only minutes have passed. I think your demands are valid, but it's going to be a transition. Like I always say, you don't get what you don't ask for. Shoot for the moon on this and let him know how serious you are. He has to make that hard choice. I was personally only able to change priorities after being saved by Jesus. Have you tried playing the game with him? Invade his space.

2. I think 2x a month is nowhere near enough, but I have a high libido and am projecting here  Dead bedroom = dead marriage. No doubt about it. I'd say be much more specific than some form of intimacy. Say you want a date, cuddling, quality time, etc whatever your heart desires. This could actually be funny and help break tension a bit but still serious.

3. This one is hard. It's kind of vague, but I think I get what you're talking about. It can come across as you have diagnosed him and look like a blame shift. It might be best to leave this one off and let it be taken care of with #4 after properly identified in counseling unless there is a history I don't know about.

4. The counseling needs to happen ASAP if this is your demand. 60 days is just too far out and seems like not a priority.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

ButterflyGirl said:


> I think I know what his response will be - exactly what it was before, "find someone else" rather than try to look at each of the things. Can you provide thoughts on whether or not the things on my list are reasonable?


This is why you need to find out what's on *his* list. And that won't be easy. You may need help. 

He very likely feels hopeless that he can't change.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

ButterflyGirl said:


> It is probably some of both for me (hopium + the unknown). I know I am making a conscious choice. I need to get past it, whatever is creating me being stuck.


You are keeping yourself stuck.


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## ButterflyGirl (4 mo ago)

Laurentium said:


> This is why you need to find out what's on *his* list. And that won't be easy. You may need help.
> 
> He very likely feels hopeless that he can't change.





Laurentium said:


> This is why you need to find out what's on *his* list. And that won't be easy. You may need help.
> 
> He very likely feels hopeless that he can't change.


I definitely want to see what he might put on his list. I have no idea what could be on it short of me not saying anything about "all of the above" and just accepting him for who he is. But I intend to ask for a list and hope he will provide it.


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## ButterflyGirl (4 mo ago)

Marc878 said:


> You are keeping yourself stuck.


YES, I know. I don't want to be.


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## ButterflyGirl (4 mo ago)

Loves Coffee said:


> Sure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



#1 - I feel like it has become an addiction. I've never heard of gaming addiction, but it makes sense. Anything in excess is not good. I can see going from 7x to 3 is essentially cutting it in half, so could definitely be too much. I will re-think that.

#2 - I don't disagree, but even 2x would be a huge improvement over the present. I would be thrilled if he committed to that. And good point on being specific.

#3 - It's hard for me to NOT want to address this one because I think it snowballs into some of the other problems (if he took care of this item, some of the other things would be moot).

4. - Point taken

Thank you for this food for thought. It really has been helpful.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

ButterflyGirl said:


> just accepting him for who he is


Yes, that is likely what he wants. (Because he doesn't feel he can change it). And that might be hard for you to do.


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## Loves Coffee (4 mo ago)

ButterflyGirl said:


> #1 - I feel like it has become an addiction. I've never heard of gaming addiction, but it makes sense. Anything in excess is not good. I can see going from 7x to 3 is essentially cutting it in half, so could definitely be too much. I will re-think that.
> 
> #2 - I don't disagree, but even 2x would be a huge improvement over the present. I would be thrilled if he committed to that. And good point on being specific.
> 
> ...


Video games also reduce libido. It's been studied.


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## ButterflyGirl (4 mo ago)

Laurentium said:


> Yes, that is likely what he wants. (Because he doesn't feel he can change it). And that might be hard for you to do.


Definitely would be hard for me if he feels he cannot change anything.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

ButterflyGirl said:


> Definitely would be hard for me if he feels he cannot change anything.


It's definitely a vicious circle. He wants to be accepted for who he is, you can't accept his current behaviours.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

People don't change significantly. It's an entire life that brought them to be who they are. Even if they try, it's unlikely it would really work and especially that it would last, and there would just be another layer of resentment. If you want someone a certain way, you have to marry someone you like the way they are or not at all.


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## ButterflyGirl (4 mo ago)

DownByTheRiver said:


> People don't change significantly. It's an entire life that brought them to be who they are. Even if they try, it's unlikely it would really work and especially that it would last, and there would just be another layer of resentment. If you want someone a certain way, you have to marry someone you like the way they are or not at all.


That makes sense. I didn't see this 20 years ago, has only been in the last 7. I don't think those behaviors were there back then, I really don't. But I agree, marry someone you like the way they are - but - hope that they stay true to it, knowing that some change is inevitable, but hopefully not the core of who they are would change.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

ButterflyGirl said:


> That makes sense. I didn't see this 20 years ago, has only been in the last 7. I don't think those behaviors were there back then, I really don't. But I agree, marry someone you like the way they are - but - hope that they stay true to it, knowing that some change is inevitable, but hopefully not the core of who they are would change.


People are on their best behavior when you are courting and hide their bad behaviors for later. The first person you knew wasn't the real person. The longer you know someone that is the genuine version because you get to see all the different sides over time and circumstance. That goes unless you think there's any reason that they are developing a mental problem or had head trauma or something like that.

You never really know someone until you see them when they're not getting their way.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> People are on their best behavior when you are courting and hide their bad behaviors for later. The first person you knew wasn't the real person. The longer you know someone that is the genuine version because you get to see all the different sides over time and circumstance. That goes unless you think there's any reason that they are developing a mental problem or had head trauma or something like that.
> 
> You never really know someone until you see them when they're not getting their way.


My great grandmother (oh that’s right, I’m digging deep for the wisdom, sorry to the red pill gang) said that you should know someone for four seasons before you agree to marry them.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> My great grandmother (oh that’s right, I’m digging deep for the wisdom, sorry to the red pill gang) said that you should know someone for four seasons before you agree to marry them.


Your great grandmother and EF Hutton have a lot in common.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

ButterflyGirl said:


> Based on what he has told me several times before, if I am not happy, then I can go and find someone else. He thinks he either can't make any changes or won't make any - or maybe a bit of both. Honestly, him saying that was pretty hurtful. LIke I'm not even worth fighting for. But that's another whole issue.


And for me, that would be the point of no return in my relationship.


ButterflyGirl said:


> The counseling he went several years back to two sessions and said never again, even if it was one he chose.


I'd tell him, "We have a session with a marriage counselor on Tuesday at 4pm. When I leave the house, either you're with me or I'm passing the counselor's office and going straight to my attorney's office. You pick."


ButterflyGirl said:


> I think I know what his response will be - exactly what it was before, "find someone else" rather than try to look at each of the things


How much of his abuse are you willing to accept?


ButterflyGirl said:


> What if it isn't GREENER?!?! Not that it is green right now where it is, but it's not all bad either despite the problems at hand.


It is greener when you have someone who loves and RESPECTS you. You're not getting any younger. How much of your life do you want to live in this sick environment?


ButterflyGirl said:


> Definitely would be hard for me if he feels he cannot change anything.


He probably can't change anything, but if he is convinced he can't change anything, he absolutely can't. Sorry.


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## ButterflyGirl (4 mo ago)

Sfort said:


> And for me, that would be the point of no return in my relationship.
> 
> I'd tell him, "We have a session with a marriage counselor on Tuesday at 4pm. When I leave the house, either you're with me or I'm passing the counselor's office and going straight to my attorney's office. You pick."
> 
> ...


I needed to hear that part about the grass is greener (I needed to hear all of it, but really appreciate your response on that in particular since that thoughts keeps popping up in my mind - "what if I am one of those 'grass is greener' people who is going to regret it later!). I see the difference - thank you.


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## ButterflyGirl (4 mo ago)

OK, I invited him to a public place to have a conversation. Without going into the whole, lengthy thing, it's basically "how dare you bring up YOUR problem when I am dealing with so many serious issues right now." I left feeling really guilty. Though I know I also am part of a 2-person relationship that deserves to be heard. I am even more confused than ever. His pre-diabetes is what scares me the most - and with the foot problems, he isn't going to be able to be active and lose some of the weight, though he is getting a consult on the foot surgery, so that is SMALL progress -am wondering if that "counts" as making a positive step but also not sure about that first sentence. Again, more confused than ever.


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## Loves Coffee (4 mo ago)

ButterflyGirl said:


> OK, I invited him to a public place to have a conversation. Without going into the whole, lengthy thing, it's basically "how dare you bring up YOUR problem when I am dealing with so many serious issues right now." I left feeling really guilty. Though I know I also am part of a 2-person relationship that deserves to be heard. I am even more confused than ever. His pre-diabetes is what scares me the most - and with the foot problems, he isn't going to be able to be active and lose some of the weight, though he is getting a consult on the foot surgery, so that is SMALL progress -am wondering if that "counts" as making a positive step but also not sure about that first sentence. Again, more confused than ever.


Sorry to hear that. Only his problems count? You can be active enough to lose weight with a foot problem. What are you going to do about it? You have no reason to feel guilty.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I have not read all the posts or your responses to other people's thoughts. 

I am taking the assumption that you have in fact discussed these things before and have brought up your issues with him in the past. 

What were the results of those prior discussions?

Are you saying anything different now than what you have said in the past??? What were the results??

My thoughts are if you simply cannot live with what is taking place rights now and you have made clear your issues before and he either did not change or only paid lip service or changed for a week or two before slipping back into the same old routine - My suggestion is to go ahead and physically separate. Perhaps even file and have him served. Perhaps even go through with the divorce. 

If he continues to play video games all the time and not seek appropriate treatment for his physical and mental health issues, then you have saved yourself a whole lot of time that would otherwise be spent going back and forth only to get divorced later on down the road when you are older and fatter and more jaded. 

On the other hand, if after separating and starting to move on with your own life, if he for some reason does sell the game system on Craigslist, seek treatment and therapy, adopt a healthy lifestyle and transform himself,,,,, then if he wishes to try to reestablish a relationship with you after he is a more functional adult and better mate material, you can cross that bridge and it would be your perogative if you wanted to consider it at that time or not. 

Is that a long shot????? Admittedly yes, yes it is a very long shot at success. 

However I do not see that as any less chance of success than hoping one more talk or certainly a letter making any bona fide, permanent changes. 

At least with my idea, you are moving forward with your own life so in the likely event that he does not make any permanent changes, you are at least on your way to making a good life for yourself.


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## ButterflyGirl (4 mo ago)

Loves Coffee said:


> Sorry to hear that. Only his problems count? You can be active enough to lose weight with a foot problem. What are you going to do about it? You have no reason to feel guilty.


I think it is nerve problems in the feet, but not sure. He also has arch problems. I would think he could do something low impact like swimming, but would have to find a pool. I DO feel guilty about asking for anything because he does seem to be struggling. I guess not guilty enough to ask because I did ask, but when he pointed out it was self-serving at a time when he was doing so poorly it made me stop and think - maybe he is right?


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## ButterflyGirl (4 mo ago)

oldshirt said:


> I have not read all the posts or your responses to other people's thoughts.
> 
> I am taking the assumption that you have in fact discussed these things before and have brought up your issues with him in the past.
> 
> ...


YES, has been discussed numerous times. He says it's just the way he is and he wants to enjoy life. Says I may be more compatible with someone else and to go and try and 'good luck'. Which is heart-breaking. We have 3 kids and the gaming started with them. They lost interest as they grew up, but he continues as his hobby, most of the time into the wee hours for hours on end. It's not so much that he is involved in gaming, just that it has taken over. I think right now I am just feeling guilty - guilty about saying something, guilty for leaving after 27 years if I chose that, guilty because he does have a lot of health things going on and he says he needs my support. Your idea is a possibility - I need to weight that with my other options. I appreciate your reply!


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## Loves Coffee (4 mo ago)

ButterflyGirl said:


> I think it is nerve problems in the feet, but not sure. He also has arch problems. I would think he could do something low impact like swimming, but would have to find a pool. I DO feel guilty about asking for anything because he does seem to be struggling. I guess not guilty enough to ask because I did ask, but when he pointed out it was self-serving at a time when he was doing so poorly it made me stop and think - maybe he is right?


A close friend of mine had 2 surgeries on his foot and also lost about 100lbs after those surgeries. He wasn't able to walk during that time. He confided in me that his wife has a higher drive than most and there were no problems to report. 

You don't need a foot to treat your wife with love and give her the affections she is due. He is manipulating you and your personality allows it.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

He makes life all about him. As long as you allow it he’ll continue it. Twenty-seven years will become 37 and then 47 (been there) and things will likely stay the same. Maybe he’ll turn things around but he’ll have to be highly motivated and continue and few are. Have a plan of your own.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

I just can't understand people that for decades put up with disrespect, being pushed aside, told "leave if that's what you need to do", and still be there trying to change the outcome because "we've been together for all this time".
That's a waste of not just your time, but your life. In the end, most people stuck in relationships like this end up old and bitter because they just kept trying one more time while their partner is just as oblivious and/or selfishly expecting to be accepted as they are as always, while the sucker partner is kept going back to the drawing board once again. 

People after their mid to late twenties seldom if ever change because by them they are set in their ways, they could with a lot of work, but a middle age person is almost impossible, specially if they are counting on their partner to continue putting up with their ****.

The definition of insanity is to continue doing the same over and over, expecting a different result every time.

Time for OP to leave this pathetic relationship. After this last encounter, I don't know what is she expecting the end result to be, unless she wants to weakly and meekly continue with the same old.


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## Jimi007 (5 mo ago)

Have you ever tried gaming with him ?


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