# I've moved out but not moved on. (Handing out free 2x2's)



## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I suck at this. I have been a poor husband in the past while I was ill but I can neither make her see the real me nor accept that I need to move on. There is a plentiful supply of 2x2's to your right as you enter, please feel free to make us of them accordingly.

I have been depressed and distant for a long time, she had enough of being the only one working on our marriage while I thought I was being a good family man simply by working hard at jobs I hated but, have to admit to being a nightmare to actually live with. She has also got it into her head that I cheated on her last year. This is so far form the truth but I can kinda see where she got the idea from. I have been 100% faithful to her though, even since we separated. I have not so much as tried to kiss another woman. The thing is, I have done things with work, my responsibilities and her health to break her trust, this on top of the broken trust of having cheated (despite the fact I haven't..) has killed my marriage.

I can totally look myself in the mirror and say I never did anything to intentionally hurt or betray her. Sadly looking back over the last couple years, maybe more, I can't say that I haven't actually done so. I also can't say she didn't try to reach out, I can see now she did but I was too far into my dark hole to respond. Major Depression (now diagnosed and being medicated) is a big part of this but I have to also hold my hands up and say I wasn't exactly husband of the year before hand either. Due to my childhood I have always been a little confused about how to behave and while I have truly tried to be a good husband, i guess even before the depression, I was something of a scared boy faking being an adult. 

That's not to say we were never happy but there were enough missed birthdays and the like to give her cause for complaint before my depression then made things so much worst.

The separation has jarred me out of things and I have sought help. I feel like my tablets are almost magical, though i think some of my improvement is down to a change in my attitude too? In many ways I feel better and happier than in years. If I could just get her to give me one chance I know I could now be the man she deserves. As I said in my previous threads though, it does seem too much damage has been done already for that to happen. In her words, she has nothing left to give. 

We had agreed I could stay in the family home but with her total detachment it was just too damn hard. She wants to friends and chat but there is no emotional connection that you need as partners there any more for her. After weeks of this I was finding it too hard to be there without breaking down.

So, on Monday I moved out though I am still full time parenting. I am now renting a strangers spare room instead of living with my 3 boys. I am only 15 min walk away. On Monday i picked the kids up from school and sorted their tea out and made sure they were settled in bed (all in the family home) before I left. Tuesday I was back there an hour before they woke up and sorted their breakfast and took them to school. Same again on Tuesday night/Weds morning. 

Those two nights, I managed a grand total of 3 hours sleep in the new place so Weds night I stayed back at the family home and managed to catch up on some sleep. :smthumbup: Thurs morning I again sorted the kids out and got them to school then collected them from childcare and fixed their dinner. Once in bed I took myself off to the new place and here I am typing away as I don't know there is any point trying to actually sleep here.

So my first question for this thread.. being there as much as i am for my boys ( hnestly being there any less is not an option for me), how do I detach and give her space at the same time. I still love her completely but am struggling to leave her alone without pressing her. I have also probably blown £100 on tickets for a show, I know she will love, two days after valentines day. I intend to give them in a handmade card with a message I am writing on valentines and see if she will let me take her. I say blown £100 as in wont make any difference and she would probably prefer to go with just about anyone else.

Having neglected her so much I feel I have to try to show her I am making an effort to change the way I treat her and that I can treat her the way she deserves. On the basis I totally intend to give her the above on valentines, the best i can hope for is to leave her alone in the meantime but I don't know how?


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## NoWhere (Oct 2, 2012)

K.C. I think you are looking for a easy answer to make it easier to detach from her while still seeing her and being around her. I'm afraid there is no easy answer. Its tough and it sounds like you will just have to suck it up and do the best you can for the sake of you and your time with the kids. 

As far as the valentines card I know you probably shouldn't, but the romantic in me says go for it. Just don't be surprised if it doesn't change anything.

What ever you do try and get some sleep. Its hard enough to think through these things for yourself without adding sleep deprivation to the equation.


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

K.C. said:


> I suck at this. I have been a poor husband in the past while I was ill but I can neither make her see the real me nor accept that I need to move on. There is a plentiful supply of 2x2's to your right as you enter, please feel free to make us of them accordingly.
> 
> I have been depressed and distant for a long time, she had enough of being the only one working on our marriage while I thought I was being a good family man simply by working hard at jobs I hated but, have to admit to being a nightmare to actually live with. She has also got it into her head that I cheated on her last year. This is so far form the truth but I can kinda see where she got the idea from. I have been 100% faithful to her though, even since we separated. I have not so much as tried to kiss another woman. The thing is, I have done things with work, my responsibilities and her health to break her trust, this on top of the broken trust of having cheated (despite the fact I haven't..) has killed my marriage.
> 
> ...


Get yourself a better place to stay. Have the kids away from her. Do this for you. You can't detach while still around her. I know this all too well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

NoWhere said:


> I'm afraid there is no easy answer...
> 
> ..As far as the valentines card I know you probably shouldn't, but the romantic in me says go for it. Just don't be surprised if it doesn't change anything.


I know there is no easy answer NW. I just know I need to do better for the sake of my sanity and for there to be any chance of her coming around. Not that I think any number of gestures can fix the damage. I just feel I have to try. I neglected special occasions before, one way or another they just didnt seem important even though they should have. This is an attempt to show I realise they matter to her I guess.



Dedicated2Her said:


> Get yourself a better place to stay. Have the kids away from her. Do this for you. You can't detach while still around her. I know this all too well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I totally hear you D2H, problem is, we have plan to emigrate next year as she already has a job offer. the kids quality of life will be massively improved by moving abroad and what town or country we are in makes no difference to me as the limited support network I have is distant anyway. The kids know about the move as it has been planned for a while so i do not want to jeopardise that. The thing is though, for me to get work over there I pretty much need to complete my degree. If I don't I am stuck unable to work till when/if we get residence. Completing my degree means I work part time now (I tried full time but it was killing me) so a better place isn't an option, we can only just stretch to me living here. 

I probably need to try and reduce my interactions with her when I am there but that just seems to seem like building on the past problems instead of changing fr the better?


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## NewLife2013 (Dec 4, 2012)

K.C. - this is by no means easy....I am in a somewhat similar situation - it is my husband that has decided he wanted out, I also think he's been dealing with depression, to much work related stress but that's another topic...

Now, we are still cohabiting in our marrital home. It is very tough for me as I cannot live on breadcrumbs he's giving me. The difference is that your wife is friendly and seeks contact with you (my husband is angry and resentful). 

As for your Valentin'es gift, if you want to detach, you shouldn't give it to her nor should you engage in anything personal, your relationship should be just about your boys (I guess you know about 180). My husband refused to see a play with me, we bought tickets together before our fall out and he said I should go with a friend. He even refused a Christmas gift even though we spent the holidays together withour son. Oh, and we are canceling our Easter faraway holiday for which we paid a significant deposit...Now, your wife may as well find that romantic and loving. If feeling neglected was the issue she had with you, this may be a step in the right direction. As I am in the same boat as you, and been dealing with this for only 8 weeks, you may want some of the old timer's advice.

I agree with the prevous poster, you should get something better than just a room to rent. I see you are based in the UK (as I am) and housing is more complicated here than in the US where most posters tend to be based. This is part of the issue we have with our cohabitation...it is difficult to fund two propper homes. This would probably be ideal so you can have your boys with you on your days. That way, you could keep communication and contact to a minimum and also give her the time and space to reflect. It would also make you feel more in charge and she would see how it is to be without you... I feel my husband is still at our home out of self pity because he would not want to be in a room at his age and perceived status (that was the only option financially where we live). If you can, get a propper home and settle yourself and you boys in well, she may realise you and the boys can do just well w/o her....


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Slight tangent but everywhere I look, it is the depressed partner that bails out while their partner wants to support them through it but they refuse to accept their condition or work on it. Mostly they seem to project the blame onto their partner.

I struggle through as I love my family, finally accept my mental state, what it has caused and start dealing with it but.. it's too late. 

The irony is a little galling. 

I'd love a proper place of my own but it is simply not going to happe unless I quit Uni and go full time work again.

Like I say, this puts me in a position where I most likely can't work in the US for a longer period and have to rely on a spousal visa. While she insists she wouldn't hold that over me... I would much rather be able to stay under my own steam asap. 

The other option would be to stop or delay the move. That would upset the kids and most likely move the relationship with my wife firmly into the gutter.

Not only is there no easy answer, I suspect there is no answer other than to suck it up and accept being no more than friends. While I have accepted that is the most likely outcome, I just cannot bring myself to stop trying or hoping?

She checked out emotionally a long time ago I guess and if I cant reignite any spark that may be remaining, i have a lot of catching up to do.


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## NewLife2013 (Dec 4, 2012)

That's interesting... you would still consider moving all together to the US even if you marriage does not make it? 
It may bring you together, being in a new place. You will have to lean on eachoter. Now, you will need to build yourself w/o depending on her. I am not sure how things are in the US economy now (other posters could advise better) but if you have an enterpreneurial skills, US is far better than the good old UK...
Oh, the thing about depression... I see the link with what you are saying and my husband blaming me for everything... This depression thing is something I started looking into recently and it seems to make sense...


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Yeah it would still be the plan regardless of the marriage working or not. 

Mad perhaps but that part is entirely on the kids future quality of life. My wife (possibly heading towards stbxw territory? though I truly hope not) will be earning more by herself than we can earn between us in the UK (if I were to go full time again even) with the job offer she has. My degree should be highly desirable in the US once I have it and like I say, there is very little to keep me here anyway.

It is scary as hell but despite my whining here.. I feel a lot stronger than in a long time. I am slowly starting to feel like although I do still very much want her, I may be able to lose the felling of needing her.

I am guilty of _loving her too much_ and putting her on a pedestal while simultaneously _showing that love too little_. I really think I could have that balance right now. I want that to be with her but I am slowly starting to feel I can make it through if that doesn't come to pass.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

I've been wondering about you & like you, I deleted my drawn out previous posts as well & decided to live for me.
One thing I've learned from the books I'm reading is this: "You are responsible for your own happiness & nobody else", if you have to change physically, emotionally etc, you are in control.
My wife & I are more like good friends than a 17 yr married couple & I've decided that is okay. I've been better with not fighting emotions & wishing things were different, no expectations cause no pain. I've left the battle.
Changing your mindset is key. I struggled to stay while still "in love" so I emotionally removed myself & I finally feel free.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Thanks WW, I hadnt forgot your posts in my other threads. 

When I said it's too hard being there when a lot of things about daily life hadn't changed.. she said pretty much that. That for a long time we have been more like good friends than husband and wife. 

I have to say I am not convinced. Maybe while she loves/loved me, she never had that 'truly madly deeply' feeling to it and thinks less of our relationship because of that. I also wonder if her conviction I cheated is based largely on being so unhappy but needing a justification.

I am pretty confused to be quite honest. Our love has always been the real deal to me but to listen to her now, you would think most of our marriage was terrible. I really don't think that is true. the last 2 years? Sure. I have to hold my hands up to that but we mostly great together before that. Or so I still think.

The whole cheating thing is really bothering me if I am honest. Having admitted to so many faults and started to actively began working on them.. I just can't process this "failing" of mine that is totally false and wondering if convincing her I never even thought about straying outside my marriage could be the key to us making progress?


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

Hi K.C., sounds like a tough situation and although I wasn't in anything like yours, I would suggest you start IC ( are you on a waiting list? I can't remember), and start rebuilding yourself. Find an activity, sport or hobby. Something physical would be good, might help you sleep. Why are you not sleeping? Get your sleep hygiene in order for starts. Meditation helps.

I'd suggest not giving the card. It will just hurt if she rejects it, which is a decent chance of happening. If you offer her the tickets, make sure you're make it clear she's under no pressure to take you. I know you hope she will but don't pressure her into it. You'd want her to choose you of her own free will and not because you manipulated her. The main advice is detach and do your 180. Look after the boys, but I wouldn't be there all the time, she can do some of the child care too. If you have a chance of getting through to her it will be through your actions not words. Women like a strong, confident man, so be that person but don't bend over backwards, as you may come across like a doormat.


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

Also, instead of loving her too much, start showing yourself some love too. You're as deserving as she is. And don't put her on a pedestal, no one likes that and it makes you look weak.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Yeah the pedestal thing I have realised. I was busy attributing any achievement we made to her and any failing to me. I have started to see that isn't the case. 

It is cray but, going through this painful time and I feel more alive than in ages. Ok I feel pain, but that is a step up from the numbness and hey I am getting more enjoyment from time with the kids than before.

As to IC, yeah I am on waiting list. Doc appointment on Tuesday where I hope to hurry it along. I have issues dating back to my very early childhood all the way to early twenties that it is about damn time I started dealing with. You know the NHS though, as and when they are ready, heh.

The card and tickets, what you say is pretty much the plan. I know there is a good chance of rejection. It's just something I feel I need to do, regardless of that risk. She will be free to use the second ticket however she feels like. I am giving them both to her. I know I am setting myself up for a fall, maybe it will be one last do or die charge and if it's die I can start moving on? I don't know. Like I say I suck at this. I am pretty sure with my head on straight I could find someone else which is progress, I just can't envisage wanting to which leaves being alone and I find that quite a scary thought.. it might mean I have to find out who I am!


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Oh and sleep is partly a side effect of the meds. Was having some insomnia from them already but has definitely been exacerbated by being away from my boys and her. Can't stop rolling things over in my mind.. hence being sat here at 0130 when I am supposed to be up at 0600.


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

Yeah I know the NHS! Love it and loathe it. You know someone just told me about a church group that does free counselling. They're all proper trained counsellors and it's not churchy or anything. I would
start looking to see of you have something similar nearby. Some counsellors also work on a sliding scale which may be worth investigating. And I know there are student counsellors needing to build their hours to graduate, you could probably hook up with someone through a college or uni that offers diploma courses. It might tide you over or you might find a gem. And get to that doctor and really put it on how much you're struggling and you've no support. Maybe don't say you're suicidal (tho that would defo put you t the top of the list) but do put it on a bit. When I had my assessment, some effin stupid part of me decided to say how well I was coping! However my assessment test showed otherwise! LOL 

What part of the UK are you in? If you were near me I could give you the name of the church group.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I'm just outside Manchester. I'll tell the doctor straight no worries there. She already knows that I had suicidal thoughts as a teen but I don't plan on mentioning that again as I am definitely not thinking that way now.

I am kinda doing ok other than sleep atm, I am terrified of how I might react to any other problms that may come along though.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Am feeling a LOT of confusion right now. 

I know my feelings for her were and still are real but I find myself wondering if they ever were for her. I'm worried I just wasted the best part of 10 years with someone that never loved me as a husband and just wanted someone that she thought would be a good Dad and she liked enough to put up with. Other times i am certain that no only she did love me but there is still a small spark that could be rekindled.

Wasted is the wrong word I guess as i have my 3 boys from it and I wouldn't change that for anything and the good times with her were the best of my life.

Struggling to NOT think of her, what was and what could be atm.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Rough weekend.

I need to get back to fixing my future instead of dwelling on her. I feel like having emotionally neglected her so long, to quit now would be wrong. I want to be there for her. I want to talk to her and support her.

I have ot give her space so we can both process this and sort out our individual feelings. But if I distance myself too much I am continuing the behaviour that led to the split in the first place.

I miss her so much and simply can't envisage a future where she isn't there. Things are hard now but if she started seeing someone else for example I don't know I could cope with that.


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## NewLife2013 (Dec 4, 2012)

K.C. - hang in there, this is not going to be easy. From your previous posts I see that you are not going to lose her for good - I understand that the plan is for you all to move together to the US. I think that could turn out quite well. You will get to see her a lot and you will spend plenty of time with your kids. Some people are in a much worse situation re custody or theri spouses not wanting to see them ever again. So I would advise you to relax and just let things run their course. She is much more likely to gravitate back to you if you are strong for both of you, particularly that she will be going through a lot with a new job in a new work culture and she will definitely need you. If you are there for her, strong and acting as her anchor...you know the rest. Use this time for you, reflect and see what you can do better going forward...

At the same time, i have also been questioning the 180 in situation such as yours (mine's similar). If the problem for the spouse that wants out was lack of attention and love, does 180 really do anything?!? I mean, my H's problem was that he felt neglected and not loved enough and he is doing his own weird version of 180 (apart that he is not very friendly to me but else is spot on) we are just going to end up further apart...


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

180 would be for self healing and moving on. Until l I choose to give up on her, I will not be doing it. If my actions don't back up my words about changing my ways and outlook then I may as well give up.

I have hurt her and betrayed her trust but despite this I know she still cares for me. I won't say love right now but I suspect there is still an ember of love there that if she ever forgives me can be rekindled. I honestly believe the biggest issues is not love but trust and fear. I don't think she trusts me to follow through with he changes I need to make. I think she is scared that if she did give me one last chance I would blow it AGAIN and she would be back to square one but with more wasted time.

That said, I have to accept I did neglect her emotionally. I did act irresponsibly and worst of all I did betray her trust. I did not cheat on her, either emotionally or physically but I did put myself before her when she trusted me not to and when there were major consequences. 

None of that was done with intent it was never ever my intention to hurt her. I have to admit that while I have been unwell, I have had my head so far into my own internal issues and been very "oh woe is me" that I didn't give enough or prehaps even any consideration to the feelings and situation of my family.

If she hadn't rescued the situation I created, the kids would have got very little for Christmas. That same situation has put her long term health at risk. What is worst she thinks I did this maliciously to try and bind her to me so she wouldn't leave. This is so far from the truth. In my haze I really believed I was making more of an effort and in some senses even now I can look back and say there were things I started to do a little better. Truth be told though, in my new better frame of mind, they were far too little to counteract not only the negatives I had done before but the negatives I continued to do.

Long winded way of saying, following 180 would just validate her decision and show her she was right. I believe I can make her happy again though and will only do any 180 type strategy if I give up on that.

Last night I broke down and begged and pleaded her to keep an open mind. i admitted I still have a long way to go and that even if she would agree to working on things I would need to stay out of the house and give her space etc. If I came back now i wouldn't trust myself to treat her right all the time so why should she. I am very much a work in progress but I do feel the progress being made already. I will come out of this a better stronger person. i will do this for me and my boys, regardless of where "we" end up.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Sheesh that was a bit long.. tldr..

I have been a poor husband.
I have failed to put my family first.
I have failed to be an emotional support for my wife.
I have accepted responsibility for my actions.
I have started working on fixing my problems.

I have not EVER cheated on her physically or emotionally.
I have not ever stopped loving her, even if I did stop showing it.
I have not given up on earning her trust and respect back and would love doing that to lead to more again. Trust and respect are a minimum acceptable place fro me though. She has to be able to trust me to put the boys first from now on.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Being there for your wife, like a previous post said, is the best advice. Show her you can be counted on for whatever support she needs. Lastly, you have to get rid of all your negativity. What you did or didn't do in the past is over, if you keep dwelling on what you did wrong, then you will act on that mindset.
It's a new year, a fresh start, a new direction. Nothing in the past matters, you have to clear your mind once and for all.
I think you'll win in the end, one way or another


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I totally agree WW. Easier said than done but it shall be done. Far more than a future for 'us' is on the line. My self respect and ability to be a good Dad for my boys is riding on me sorting my self out.

I dwell a lot on my mistakes atm because I spent so long denying them or choosing to not deal with them. I have had to make sure I face up to my demons and I think I have done that. I have stopped running and I have looked them in the eye. It's time to push them back. They will always be there I guess but they cannot have control over me any more. I can't and won't allow it any more.

Today has been a great day. Tomorrow I have to stop talking the talk and start walking the walk instead.

The CBT stuff I have been given has been a great help and I intend to embrace it. Tomorrow I also have a docs appointment where I can discuss the meds I have been on (I think they have been a massive help) and push for the counselling I think I need.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

So yesterday was a very good day. Today has started the same way.

Doc has adjusted my medication dose and accepted my request for counselling. She says I am doing well and thinks I would be ok without the counselling but I disagree and she has said it will be a few more weeks. In the meantime I will continue the CBT and reading the self help books I have bought. The meds is a weird one though. She says I am doing well but has increased the dose! Maybe that was always the plan, to start low and then increase but it seems weird to change it when it seems to be helping as it is. Despite my doubts though, this time I am taking the advice, I will take the larger dose and go back if the side effects start to outweigh the benefits.

Today I think I need to stop talking the talk and just get on with putting one foot in front of the other. I have real hope for the future but I need to accept I have a long way to go and a lot of hard work to do. This is just the start of my journey but at least I have a destination now.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Not going into details but, refusing to 180 and keeping it honest may have resulted in a break through of sorts. We are NOT back together or even close to it but, there is now hope that I am not the only one that would like to see me fix my **** so we (not just I) can move forward.

Changes nothing at all regarding what I need to do for my issues. I absolutely need to make all the changes I have said I do. I am confused about how to act with her now but I will not make my old mistakes of trying to rush full speed ahead. 

Baby steps K.C., baby steps.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Last few days i am also thinking of going to see the scumbag I grew up calling Dad in prison with no idea of where the desire to do so has come from or if it is even possible to

He was my step-dad, after driving away first my biological Dad and then my Mum he was the "man" that "raised" me. He is the root cause of pretty much all my issues but I refuse to continue living as his victim, I am a survivor. Maybe I am just wanting to throw that in his face while he rots.


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

Hi KC, how are things? Have you made a plan to make those changes you are asking about? Keep moving forward, accept what your part was, and forgive yourself- I presume you are human like the ret of us- and start walking the walk.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Yeah, moving forward and generally doing pretty well atm. No more big breakdowns and sleeping much better. Some of that is definitely down to the last talk we had I think. It seems she may finally believe that there was no cheating. While we are not back together, she has expressed she is open to working on things slowly on a last chance basis. That gives me real hope we can get somewhere. It was hard dealing with all the real issues I have admitted to, with that 'fictional' deal breaker hanging over things. I can, will and I think have, held my hands up to my poor behavior but I will not admit to something I did not do. 

Couple more weeks till IC starts. Hoping to use that largely on my pre-existing issues rather than the separation though it will surely come into it.

Forgive is a weird word. I feel like if I forgive myself, I will be saying what I did was ok? I have to accept nothing I do now can change the past and concentrate on living in the present and planning for the future. To say I forgive myself would be a lie right now. What I am trying to do though is channel that positively rather than continually berating myself. I have to fix my issues and I really do feel I am making progress. 

I want one last chance to have my family. I honestly feel right now, I am in a pretty strong place mentally. I would have no excuses for messing up again.

I know what happened and what mitigating circumstances can be brought in my defense. I know how I need to behave going forward and I am actively addressing them. No more excuses.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

K.C. said:


> Forgive is a weird word. I feel like if I forgive myself, I will be saying what I did was ok? I have to accept nothing I do now can change the past and concentrate on living in the present and planning for the future. To say I forgive myself would be a lie right now. What I am trying to do though is channel that positively rather than continually berating myself. I have to fix my issues and I really do feel I am making progress.
> 
> I want one last chance to have my family. I honestly feel right now, I am in a pretty strong place mentally. I would have no excuses for messing up again.
> 
> I know what happened and what mitigating circumstances can be brought in my defense. I know how I need to behave going forward and I am actively addressing them. No more excuses.


This I can relate to very clearly.

Forgiving myself for things I have done.

It's been done.

The consequences are what they are.

Can be very hard to forgive yourself I find, because you cannot control others words / actions but you should be able to control your own.

Even though mistakes are made.

Excuses cannot be used.

I will warn you though.

Feeling content in yourself to the point of arrogance is where you must be careful.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I hope I don't come across that way, especially to her. Icertainly have a way to go before I am content in myself.

Been thinking more on this and actually, I am not sure I even want to forgive myself? Is this weird? Maybe I am worried if I forgive, I'll forget and regress. No matter what happens with my marriage I cannot go back to being that person - he isn't me.

Also a reminder to self. Baby steps.. don't push it.


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

Maybe forgiveness has baggage for you. What about acceptance? Accept your mistakes, your faults, your flaws, you are human after all. Find a way to make peace with yourself. Counselling will definitely help you in this. Are you in IC now? Why the delay? Forgiveness doesn't mean you forget, it means you accept what you did and learn from it. I'm glad you're no longer beating yourself up about if. But don't dwell on it either, look to the future and concentrator your own well being and self improvement. Are you reading any books? Search books on TAM or ask for suggestions. Stay strong! xo


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Thank you both very much Chopsy and Up.

Perspective.

I would find it much easier to give 'gentle advice' and fully mean and believe it than I do to accept it coming the other way. Just so used to criticising myself I guess. As a depressive, I am maybe too settled into the downward spiral to easily forgive myself. Funny how I can forgive others so much more readily than myself.

Thats what I mean by channeling it more positively. I am not ready to cast off the guilt or forgive myself as such but rather than berating myself for the past I am trying to use it as fuel to do better in future. Maybe acceptance is the word as Chopsy says.

I accept I can't go back in time but that what I did was bad and would go back if I could. in the absence of a Deloran, I am determined to not repeat the mistakes of the past. I truely hope that willl be with my wife but I also accept all I can do is be the person I want to be and hope that person is what she wants. i can't force her to love me and I don't want to make her unhappy anymore.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

EEEK.

Maybe I should get a 'baby steps' tattoo somewhere I will see it a lot?

This morning had an almost overwhelming urge to kiss her. Just something about the way she looked was stood and her eyes.. Managed to resist but since then have been wondering if I should have gone for it.

Pretty sure restraining myself was the right thing but damn it was harder than usual this time.

Got some of the tension out by staying behind at school to help clear away all the snow that has come at last. Nice and tired now but soooo cold.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Good move to not kiss her. She most likely would have responded negatively & hurt your feelings. Telling her she looks nice is just as meaningful & she can't not like to hear it. Temptations will always be there, be strong.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Yah, I did tell her she looked lovely because she did.

I "know" I need to go at her pace. I honestly do. It's just well it's hard and I do have a tendency towards impulsiveness that I need to reign in. Guess anything worth it is hard though. 

I think I am craving some sign from her that there are still real feelings for me in there somewhere? I did send a text after I left letting her know how I feel but that I know it has to be at her pace. Wanted to say it to her directly before leaving but it wouldnt have been fair to her and would have put her on the spot. Maybe the text was a bad call too? Regardless I think I need to back off again and other than being there for her, leave things to her for a while.

Little slap for myself for the text but other than that I think I am doing pretty well atm.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

So woke up from the most amazing fantasy about my wife last night. 

No, nothing like that, ya dogs. Was that she let me give her a foot rub like I used to then we just cuddled on the sofa and fell asleep in each others arms.

Wow, made me wake up in a fantastic mood but it's wearing of and it is making me realise how much I miss the little things like linking arms as we walk down the street, holding hands and just being together.

Having spent years bottling things up and not really talking.. I have so much to say now! About me, about her. I just want to talk to her properly.

Strangely for me, I am not missing the sex. I still fancy her like mad and want her that way but I have thought about sex a lot less since the separation. I may have finally separated sex and love in my head. Not to say both together isn't amazing but after almost 34 years on this earth I have finally stopped obsessing over that side of a relationship. I just want he closeness and companionship back.

I have a feeling today will be hard to not reach out again but I keep telling myself to let her move things on to whatever is next when she is ready. Then I have to acknowledge she may not be able to get further than this which is the stuff of nightmares but I try not to dwell on that now.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Hmm, Well and truely put in my place. :/

It seems I have been making her uncomfortable and she thought I was acting as if we were back together. I know full well we are not, just the possibility of trying again has maybe made me a bit giddy though. Was a pretty cool talk from my view, quite productive. I got to explain where I am with things, she got to clarify her position. Explained I have been making sure to bail when the kids are in bed precisely because I knwo we arent back together and she needs space.

So having explained I want her to see I am opening up etc and want to be there for her if she will let me in, I definitely need to back the hell off. Haven't been 'trying' to push things but it has obviously come across that way and maybe on a subconcious level I have been?? so I need to work on that.

I need to forget any possibility of R and just focus on what needs to be done. I am quite happy with 'wanting her' at this stage, i am being honest with myself there, I am working towards not needing her though and I think I am getting there. Tonight's talk would have left me in bits a few weeks ago but I still fell pretty good right now. Like I have been slapped down a bit but heh, guess it was needed.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

That didn't last long, can feel myself slipping again. Seeing it coming is an improvement but I don't know how to stop it happening.

I know I've got to think positively but it's so much easier said than done. I hate this limbo.


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## NoWhere (Oct 2, 2012)

Its tough K.C. No doubt. Looks like I can safely put away the 2x4 you gave me. And I was so looking forward to whacking you with it. 

I know I have a ton of things I'd like to say. Its amazing how when you reflect back and analyze everything its so much clearer then when it all happened. As far as the sex thing. I'm in the same boat. Don't even think about it anymore. Its no longer apart of the love equation for me.



K.C. said:


> That didn't last long, can feel myself slipping again. Seeing it coming is an improvement but I don't know how to stop it happening.
> 
> I know I've got to think positively but it's so much easier said than done. I hate this limbo.


Don't feel bad. I felt pretty good today after my confrontation then later found myself slipping again. If you figure out how to stop it from happening let me know. I try and brush away any thoughts, but its almost impossible sometimes.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Dude, swing away. I need it right now.

I see it as maybe 50-50 at best that she will give us another chance then the lord only knows what chance of making it work. I should be grateful there is even a chance when a couple weeks ago it was all Taylor fecking Swift never ever getting back together...

I am just desperate for one chance while I am 'awake' to show her what she means to me. So much easier to give advice than follow it.


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## NoWhere (Oct 2, 2012)

K.C. said:


> Dude, swing away. I need it right now.


 :lol:



K.C. said:


> I see it as maybe 50-50 at best that she will give us another chance then the lord only knows what chance of making it work. I should be grateful there is even a chance when a couple weeks ago it was all Taylor fecking Swift never ever getting back together...
> 
> I am just desperate for one chance while I am 'awake' to show her what she means to me. So much easier to give advice than follow it.


 I know the feeling. I wish I could right all the wrongs and show my ex how much she means to me. Feel lucky in your case you have some contact. I have none with mine. Today was the 1st time seeing her since once in Nov and before that the day I moved out. So I went from seeing her everyday for 13 years to twice in 3 months. Pretty shocking to anyone's system. You get so use to life as it was just to have the carpet pulled out from underneath you. I only wish she could experience a small fraction of how painful this all has been to me.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Seeing so much of her makes even thinking of moving on a pointless excercise. I was trying and telling myself I was managing to gain some separation but meh I was lying to myself I think. All I have achieved is some feeling that life will go one without her. Slowly making her a want instead of a need.

Moving on though? Nah, wasn't getting anywhere with it before, and certainly can't with the door maybe not open, but at least unlocked.

In a way it was easier to deal with when she was saying no way not ever. Hope is a wonderful thing and I don't want to lose it but it can be painful too.

I know i can fix 100% of the problems except for how she feels inside. All I can do is be the best I can and hope for that to come good.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Thanks Up, perfect sense as always.

I don't want t be someone else though, I kinda like the me I see inside, I just want to be that grown up well adjusted version of myself on the outside too and I really and truly am making progress to it.

I don't want to become what she wants, I want her to want what I become, if that makes sense?

I know her so well, I knew there was a talk coming tonight about 20 minutes after she came through the door. I am awake and could do what I should have been all along. 

You are spot on about her letting me know though. That is where I fall down big time. Knowing to leave her be and actually doing it.. As for how long I wait? I don't know, how long is a piece of string?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I am definitely trying to avoid any games or manipulation. I don't just want me to be happy with us being together, I want her to be happy too.

I do know I can't do anything about her internal thoughts but yeah, maybe I'm lying if I say I don't want my actions to influence them? All I can do is be the best me I can and she will choose what she chooses, when she chooses. 

Maybe at some point I will not want to wait any longer but seeing as I still want that last chance, I am honest enough to say I am fine with leaving the door open from my side. Will it hold back my healing and ability to detach? I guess it will have a huge impact there. If she was a cheat or normal WAW maybe I would feel more comfortable on that but this is my mess, not hers. As of now, I still want to clean it up. Will she let me? For now I have hope and that will have to be enough.

Feeling ok again this morning, not thinking much on 'us' but I do feel very lonely. No family or friends in this town. Back in Uni next week though and that should help a lot as I intend to make myself much more active and engaging than before. Last couple of weeks have been hard in that sense as I haven't doing any socialising just enjoying as much time with the boys as I can and in the day while they are at school doing lots of soul searching and self help stuff.


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## NoWhere (Oct 2, 2012)

OK. I've drilled some holes in my 2x4's so it will whistle when I swing it at you K.C. 
Thought it was a nice added touch!

I think you are doing fine K.C. Obviously you still want things to work out and you are properly focusing on yourself. Its naive to think that the part of you that wants things to work out isn't going to slightly influence your interactions with her and that you can control that part of you without abandoning all hope of R.

As far as being lonely I can relate. If I was in the UK I'd take you to a pub and we would have a blast. I think it would do both of us some good.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Hah yeah. Last and only time I have been out since the split was boxing day where my Dad, older Brother and best mate from my hometown got me destroyed and I was ill for 2 days. Could certainly do with getting out in slightly less overindulgent style.

Today has been hard but like I say not so much from thinking of her rather the lack of anything interesting to do.


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## NoWhere (Oct 2, 2012)

K.C. said:


> Today has been hard but like I say not so much from thinking of her rather the lack of anything interesting to do.


Yeah I need to find some more hobbies. There really isn't anything interesting to get involved with around here at all. I'm in the most backwards place in the U.S. I was doing a lot of shopping/decorating/projects on my house, but my funds started to get low so all of that has been on hold. I keep pretty busy throughout the week with work, working out, reading books and playing guitar. However on the weekend I usually end up bored and lonely with too much time on my hands. I keep saying I'm going to find something else to do, but haven't decided what or committed to anything yet.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

My main hobby in the past was online gaming but have decided it needs to be gone. It wasnt the cause of any of my problems but it was a big part of how I hid from them.

Gonna join the Uni gym next week and see if there are any groups and activities that don't mind a dinosaur joining in.

In other news, Mrs.C asked what was wrong with me today. Had been thinking a lot about the prison visit thing and guess it showed. Talked about it and as is so often the case her advice was great. So it is scrapped, at least for now. I still think about doing it and maybe I will but not now. Maybe a last thing before leaving the country type thing.

I have enough to deal with right now without that on top.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

UpnOver said:


> You explained how you felt.
> 
> What else is there you can do?
> 
> How long are you going to wait hoping?


Re reading the thread and this really stands out. There really is nothing more I can do. The changes I am committed to making are to be made regardless. I am already happier in myself than for a long time. Sure I have a way to go but at least I am on the way.

The only thing holding me back is hope I guess. But so long as I don't want to move onto anyone else and she doesn't either I accept the hope. If I meet someone else then that would be something to consider but right now I'm more concerned with finding out more about who I am than who is out there. If she starts dating, well that would be rough for me to deal with I think but I have to accept that it could happen. 

Reliving the past and worrying about the future has been a large part of my depression so I will deal with that as and when it needs to. Right now I am trying to live in the present, just with that particular hope refusing to go away.

Ya know what though, I am honestly quite happy with that right now.


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## NoWhere (Oct 2, 2012)

That's the way to go. Just worry about right now. I had the same epiphany while reading a book I bought about dogs and training. The part that struck me was how dogs don't dwell on the past or even think of the future. They just live in the present. Which is why they are so easily amused and happy. All species on earth are like that, but us. Forget the past its done. The future is yet to be. So just enjoy right now and count your blessings. There's always someone worse off then you somewhere in the world. 

It will all work out eventually.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Ugh.

Feeling ill and in need of a cuddle.. guess where that thought leads to.

Swing.. thunk.. oww..

Nope, 2x4'ing yourself is like wanking. Kinda works but it's just not the same as the real thing


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Feeling really icky now, snow meant it took extra hour and half to get home. Gonna curl up in bed by myself soon sigh. Work again tomorrow too, Pfft. This sucks.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Also have looked into Realate (Marriage/relationship Counselling charity in UK).

Thinking even if we don't work on getting back together it could be good for us to this, not sure how and when to broach this though. She flat out refused MC when I asked about it when we first split and I can see why but I think this would be good for us, whether that is towards R or in setting workable healthy boundaries and communication as we are.

So much to think on. Don't want to do it yet as I think that would be pushing too far too soon. Maybe in a few weeks?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Still feeling ill.
Still wondering about joint counselling. 

On a plus, I believe I have managed to not push things at all for about 5 days. New record. Feelings are the same but maybe I am handling them a little better. It's so hard not to reach out but as Up so clearly stated what else could I say or do that I haven't already.

Ball is firmly in her court now.

edit.. five days sounds right, the last chat a few days ago was instigated by her and the things she was unhappy about were from a few days before.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Soooooooooooooooo.

Today was great. And it sucked.

Great day, good food, put kids to bed. She mentioned Glee was on. Yeah yeah byebye streetcred but I started watching it with her and ended up actually liking it. I still watch that and Bones round there .
Stayed after the kids went to bed to watch it, big mistake. Turned out was all about break ups. I "don't think" there was anything planned about that as I say, usually stay to watch it. We were having a good time and laughed a bit but I started losing it a bit towards the end. I don't wnat to be just friends dammit.

Tried to be diescreet but I know she knows me plenty well enough to have picked up on it. Didn't want to make a deal so stayed till the end, asked if she needed anything before I left, then came back here to my crappy little room.

Text her on the way home just saying I enjoyed today. Maybe I shouldn't have but I managed to resist any us talk was literally just that little sentence. 

That was hard in the end but I have promised to leave it to her and I have to keep that promise..


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

Hi KC, hope you're feeling better now. I think you're doing great. I would hold off on bringing up Relate for awhile yet. I think you handled watching telly ok. good job not chasing! Five days is awesome! I aspire to beat your record one day! LOL stay strong, listen to Nowhere and Up, I'm no good for advice as I'm so effed up myself, as you well know! But I can do moral support! hope you're not getting the flu. Take care of yourself.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

I think it's noble of you that you made it through an evening with your wife but take it from me, the more time you spend alone together, the more it will rip you apart. She is in full on "friend" mode & you are still in love. You will only be able to supress your emotions for a short time & then you will blow, either in anger or tears. I've had to accept the change in my marriage, mourn the loss of what I had fought for & be happy with a mostly companion. It took me 3 yrs of "self torture" to get to this point, I could have left, but 16 years was too much to throw away & we get along very well, it is all about a mindset of acceptance. You can either both be close friends or intimate lovers, but you can't be on opposite sides & not drive yourself insane. You'll get to this point, I'm pulling for you buddy.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I feel I am being true to myself rather than noble or anything. Its painful but I emotionally neglected her for so long I do want to be there for her now I have woke up to what I was doing. I am still hoping for genuine R and right now I don't think she knows what she wants.

She made a brave and strong decision to kick my ass into touch. I wasn't treating her right and she thought I was having an affair on top. How can I complain that she was strong enough to do that? Thing is it wasn't the real me treating the that way - it was the depression taking hold, but I accept that is still my responsibility. Secondly I wasn't having an affair of any kind though I think the signs of my depression were easily interpreted as such - becoming distant and moody etcetc.

So anyway, I left last night as said. After sending the text that I had enjoyed the day I was checking for replies avery 2 minutes... and worrying I would do something daft so I took myself off to bed.

Normal service resumed this morning. I was upset but I feel pretty good about how I responded to that overall.

This morning when I got back to the family home for sorting he kids out, she talked about us going to a music festival at some point this year and distractedly responded calling me love to something.. 

I "KNOW" I shouldn't give too much credence to little slips like that but I still believe if she can get the courage to let me back in, we can still fix things and actually end up with a stronger marriage than ever as I will be a much better husband than before as a result of this experience.

Pfft. Thats enough 'us' thoughts, back to sorting my self out regardless.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

<< New pheonix avatar as it seems more fitting now than the "closing the stable door after the horse has bolted one"..


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I love you please give me one chance, now I see what i did, to prove it.

I can't promise perfection but I promise to do all I can to make you happy.

I don't just mean a better husband. I am going to be a better person and I want you there with me.

If we can't make it work I'll let you go. 

I just want one genuine attempt for us to heal what was so special for both of us.


..Phew. Close one there. :banghead:


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## NoWhere (Oct 2, 2012)

I could copy that and send it to my ex. That is basically how I feel.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Copy away.

just don't send.

amidoingthisright?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

So glad for Mrs Browns Boys. Made me lmao despite the fact I am wistfully looking at pics of us from just a few months before it ended. We look so happy to me. heh.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Still no more slips with her. That I can think of.

The feelings and thoughts don't get any easier but maybe dealing with them does?

Despite being ill, have woke up feeling in a pretty good mood today.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I very much feel like something needs saying by one or the other of us like, right now. Feels like the right time and atmosphere to talk.

Biting my tongue. Hard.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Stay strong & don't do it, unless you want to get hurt. Sadly until you two decide to be husband & wife or close friend parents, you are going make yourself nuts. You can't live half in & half out emotionally. I fear sooner than later you will "stir the nest" & get stung. You are only being human & any other way is unnatural. Be careful.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Indeed.

Biting was successful so the danger is past for now.

What I think triggered it was a "what was that love" comment from her. There was a similar one yesterday. I am so wired for signs of affection it's hard not to jump on them.

This is on top of the fact she knows I got tickets for a show just after valentines day and she has agreed to go plus talked about us going to a festival this year.

I am hoping if we are to try and make progress she will be less subtle than that so I am resisting. She wouldn't be that subtle right?

Have to say yeah, holding a torch for her has a pretty high chance of resulting in burnt fingers but it's the path I have chosen to take and I will see it to the end.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Sounds like you still have her up on a pedestal, KC. 

Even if you two were both committed again that wouldn't be healthy.

Don't be the dog under the table sniffing for scraps or you'll just get kicked in the head.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

:lol::rofl:

Nah, she is off the pedestal. I think. 

I don't think having her up where I did wasnt so much the unhealthy thing as pegging myself so much lower was. She has faults and things that bug me but in the grand scheme of things I still think she is an amazing woman.

I am treading carefully but feelings are feelings.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Curious and maybe I missed it - have either of you mentioned these events as dates or specifically friends? Where does that stand? Is it clear?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Tbh I'm a little unsure here myself. The festival would be whatever it is if we do it. Would be months away yet but we had both wanted to do one of the big ones for ages and would both love to go one before we leave the country.

She has said she is now open to working on things and once a month 'maybe going on a date or whatever'. I have basically interpreted this as we are not back together but that we will work on things with R as the aim. I know it's a little fluffy sounding and believe me I want to sit down and talk about this in more depth but I am sticking to the promise to leave it alone for now. Just that step of being open was massive progress.

I am though planning the 16th as a valentines date, I intend to make it a special day for her unlike my crappy efforts in the past. I have a chance to woo her again and I want to make the best of it.

I know it may sound like I am deluding myself and burying my head in the sand. I am not though. I have my eyes open wide to the *very* real risk of coming away from this hurt. I made a decision to take this path and I am fully committed to it. It could lead back to the separate path I had thought was my only option but I have spent too much time punishing myself for the past and stressing about what if's. I see this as living in the present, so long as I go about it the right way.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Oh and I love the kick in the head analogy.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I am in such a good mood. I still have man-flu but feel really good in myself atm.

Am desperately missing a real hug though. It's mad. When we were together we couldn't hug without me wanting more... now the hug is all I can think off. I keep dreaming of falling asleep in each others arms. D'oh.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

KC my man you are walking a tight rope over shark infested waters. 

You can't move on if your holding on. She seems to have way too much control. I think I am gonna start and read yours from the beginning.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

That about sums it up if I'm honest GP. To clarify though, right now.. moving on isn't even in mind.

You're spot on about control.. as far as R goes, she has a lot of control. She ended it, she didn't cheat and she had what I consider valid reasons for ending it. And she knows I am 100% after R. I have stooped chasing for now though, it's hard but i focus on me and being there for her and the kids to show I am mostly back. I am keeping to the values that matter to me but... I am definately looking to be happy with myself too and thats why I am in such a good mood. I feel better about K.C. the man than I have in a long time. 

I do understand I am putting a lot on the line in an attempt to achieve R but I dont think I could accept anything else form myself. 

I had always said I would never marry having seen it mean so little to so many adults growing up. Having made the decision to propose to her though, the vows meant everything to me. I know that doesn't make me special but I failed at least one vow. When my depression kicked in I no longer cherished her. I chipped away at her self worth and made her feel unloved and worthless. 

Despite that i always loved her and would never have done any of that consciously. I have to at least put that right though as I do still love her.

The flip side of all that is I totally did lose track of who I am. I became Dad, Husband and breadwinner.. but lost all handle of myself. I am slowly rediscovering who K.C. is. This is being done no matter what. If we end up back together I will need ot keep on that track.

Believe it or not I never was one to roll over and just accept what she said or wanted. I am not typical beta or co-dependent in the sense of appeasement though I certainly have developed a lot of co-defendant traits in that I though dedicating myself to her and the kids 100% was the right thing to do. Somehow though I think I let that ideology get in the way of putting them first.. weird? I feel like I was so busy ignoring my needs in favour of my families that eventually I rebelled against myself and started subconsciousnessly doing the opposite?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Woohoo.

I am still ill. So is the youngest. And now the 8 year old has it too. They are driving me nuts. How can ill children still be so damn hyper.

Stil not got my hug of course but a couple of 'virtual' hugs from TAM'rs has helped there.

Still feeling pretty good about where I am and where I am heading. As i posted in that social thread. I finally realised I am pretty awesome with my head screwed back on so screw you to anyone that disagrees!


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Have spent last four nights back at the family home. As me and the kids have been ill it seemed better than walking in the cold in the morning and evening for me. It was originally mentioned by Mrs.C and I was glad to accept. 

Being here so much has been a major challenge to the not pushing things resolution but so far I have stuck to it and not broke down. No begging or trying to move anything past where we are at. We have chatted a fair bit about the new job she has, I am genuinely interested in both the work and how it is going. Attentive and involved in the conversations but I am careful not to steer it anywhere she doesn't want to go yet.

This morning we dropped the kids off for school then she dropped me back here before going to work. I did briefly touch her arm and tell her I am really proud of her. I wanted to hold her hand or hug her and say it but I restricted it to that brief touch, said what I said then see you later and got out the car.

I think that is ok for where we are? I kept the touch brief and not intimate in any way but I am proud of what she has achieved and I want her to know that.

As for me, feeling much better today, still a bit icky but I should be good for Uni on Monday. As worried as I am about how much work I have to do to catch up, I can't wait to get back. It is the key to my social and activity building. It's the one place I will be able to naturally interact with people without feeling I am 'forcing it' and I also intend to make use of the gym facilities there. Always said I wanted to tone up etc and now I don't have any excuse not to.

Still feeling pretty positive about myself while hoping for more from her and although 'getting out there' is a little scary I can't wait. Even if she said tonight we are back together, that wouldn't change. 

I need a life outside my family and I *won't* accept any of my own past bullsh!t excuses for not having one.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

Just keep your sick germs over there on that side of TAM. Dont be hackin up lugies n shxt...I cannot afford to get sick over here and miss work.

I like how your mellow with your wife...how you made sure to keep the touch light and not be pushy...in other words your very attentive. 

Kewl.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Thanks Stella, I need reassurance about what little gestures are ok etc; it felt right, maybe it was maybe it wasn't.

I am a little worried about the amount of time I have spent back here this week though. It has been due to me and the kids being ill but i would be lying if I said I am not happier here than away from my family back at the rental. I don't want her thinking I am moving myself back in by installments though using me and the boys being ill as cover.

Will speak to her after work about the weekend plans with the kids and try and gauge if I need to cool my heels some more but I feel like I am getting better at this limbo business.

Couple weeks ago the vibe in the house would have me convinced it was time to 'try again'. I still feel like it is but am managing to not act on that impulse. 

As pointed out to me before what would I say that I haven't already?!


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

OMG! As part of doing things I would never have before.. I just posted a vocaroo of me singing over in social haha, apologies to anyone that actually listens to it. :rofl:

Also Mrs.C came home and doesnt seem weirded out by the comment this morning so I get to stay in my super good mood!


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Wow.

Hard crash. Nothing messed up, had a pleasant enough evening but as much as I get better at handling 'our' interactions, the loneliness is kicking my ass right now.

Sat here doing nothing with no one.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

yes, I'd imagine. 

You are in a very rough position to be so close yet so far away. But you must keep your composure if you want it to work out. Show her (and you) that you can.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Yeah that side is fine still. Kept it together fine till bed time. Putting on a brave face etc and we are getting in really well atm.

I just crave that extra ya know. Something as simple as holding hands would make my year right now. Any words to say this is how we will approach fixing our problems.

On th ebright side, this is the worst I have felt in a bout 3 weeks but it's not near to what I was feeling before.

Reckon I'll be right in the morning, but I wan to try and get out of the dark cloud before sleep or I will be dreaming of her all night and it sucks when that happens.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Err just to check.. going and waking her up to discuss this or to just kiss her.. bad idea right? 

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

K.C. said:


> Err just to check.. going and waking her up to discuss this or to just kiss her.. bad idea right?
> 
> :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:


You know your situation better than us. Was pushing things or not giving her space an issue in the past. Has she mentioned taking things slow? Has she said anything leaving you with the impression that she's looking for you to initiate?


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

wow, you're doing awesome KC! I do think the touch on the arm was fine, if kept brief. It must be tough for you but you're really doing it right, not pushing (oh yes kiss to wake up, NOT a good idea! LOL). I think -and you probably know this- you will have to wait for her to make a move I suspect. Unless she starts giving off some signals, otherwise keep it cool! ace job mate!


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

It was only a couple weeks she said she is open to working on it. Beofore that was zero chance.

She did feel I was pushy for physical contact before and that is a big contributor to how she feels so yeah, even if touching and holding hands type stuff came back on the table.. initiating anything major will be a no no for me unless given clear indication.

She definately wants it taken slow, as she says, we are not back together, it's merely a possibility at this point.

As I have mentioned before I have the valentines/16th feb plans (went and got a load of stuff from craft shop to make card earlier) but I do think I need to cool my jets until then and even then, take it easy on the day.

I
JUST
DONT
WANT
TO
RAWR.

Ahem.


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

good advice, now follow it!


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

OK, nothing to see here.

Normal service is resumed. I feel great about keeping a lid on things. Can't wait to get to Uni on monday, so very badly need an outlet and none child non work contact.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Another tough day as it turned out.

I have spent far too much time here this week. Don't get me wrong it has been great and we are getting on really well but, well it is killing me to keep it under wraps.

At least I can say I have succeeded in not pushing it and I am really proud of that as my emotions are just the same.

So seeing as I am feeling better (mostly) and have work tomorrow then Uni monday, I need to get back to the planned routine so we both have space. Her to decide what she wants and me to well, not go totally insane..

No screwups despite being back at the family home literally all week is huge though I think. Maybe I am finally acting consistently with what I am saying.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Keep doing what you're doing KC. You are making progress. Take it slow.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Thanks man, this is the only way it can go, I know that. Anything else and I may as well walk away now. Doesn't make doing it any easier, especially as I know there is a fair chance of it being for nothing. At least I am trying though.

I worry about how far away from 'moving on' i'll be if it doesn't pan out but I guess having committed to this path, I can only worry about that later.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

K.C. said:


> Thanks man, this is the only way it can go, I know that. Anything else and I may as well walk away now. Doesn't make doing it any easier, especially as I know there is a fair chance of it being for nothing. At least I am trying though.
> 
> I worry about how far away from 'moving on' i'll be if it doesn't pan out but I guess having committed to this path, I can only worry about that later.


If you keep working on yourself and accept the very real chance that it may not work, you'll be in a much better place than when this started, yeah?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Hah, very tempted to not answer that, but in the interests of honesty..

I'll be a better person for sure regardless of us. Don't know about a better place if it's not with her though. From the view of it not working out.. I'd be much better served letting go of the hope now rather than doing what I am, 

The plus side is that I honestly believe if she can let me back in then our marriage would be better than ever as she wouldn't be married to a scared little boy anymore and I wouldn't be worshiping the floor she walks on anymore.


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

Good luck tomorrow with uni! Bit jeal!


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Need all the luck I can get as I am way way behind! Really wish had gone for Psychology instead heh.

Am pretty good in myself atm but a bit of internal confusion about things. Why can't life just be simple?


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

K.C. said:


> Why can't life just be simple?


It is only as complicated as we make it. Accepting that change is inevitable is key. And letting go of what we do not control.


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## SpunkySpunky (Dec 17, 2012)

You're doing great K.C.!

Don't ever doubt yourself, and take advice from zill up there^^


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

For the first time in a LONG time, it's not me I doubt.

I feel really good about myself. I AM a good guy and i AM a great Dad to my boys. I have a huge amount of remorse for my past failings but I other than embracing and working on those faults, I can't do more. 

Beating myself for them repeatedly will only hold me back and I have places to be. It would be nice to know where those places are but at least I know it's out there.

I don't know what will happen. I don't know if she will come around, maybe she will, maybe she won't. I don't know if I will still be waiting for her if if/when she does. Maybe I'll decide she was right all along and it's better this way.

All I know right now is I have made what feels like a huge amount of progress in a couple of months. 

I am happier in myself day to day than in years.
I am 'pining away' over her less than before.
I am doing better and more with the boys than before.
I am getting better at not pushing any 'us' talk.

I really do feel like I am slowly becoming myself rather than whatever the hell I was turning into and it feels fantastic.

I am confused though as I still feel just the same about Mrs.C and I am just as sure as ever that our marriage would be better than ever going forward if she could just let me back in. 

At the same time I am trying to hold onto the small amount of detachment I achieved. I am seeing that there are other amazing women out there. Coming to the conclusion I would only be alone forever if I chose to be. This is a strange and scary thought to someone that has not so much as glanced outside his partnership/marriage for a decade. It's feels almost like betraying her to even consider that when I am so set on making it work with her. I can't have it both ways. I can't want to make it work and be thinking of other options at the same time? It's not like I am seriously considering other options though, just becoming aware of the fact I am not such a loser that they wouldn't be open to me? Blurgh, not sure I can articulate what I am feeling.

Realising life will go on with or without Mrs.C at my side doesn't change the fact I still want her there but it does change the way I look at having there I guess?


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Nothing wrong about thinking about the possibilities of ending up with someone else, it shows you are growing & healing. You are right, you can't have it both ways so you should set a time frame when you will give up the fight. Time will keep passing you by, if not. You don't want to have an indefinite "waiting" for reconciliation. It doesn't matter if it is 2 or 6 months or New Years Eve? Even if you are the only one who knows your deadline, at that point you can be at total peace in that you did all you could do.


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## SpunkySpunky (Dec 17, 2012)

woundedwarrior said:


> Nothing wrong about thinking about the possibilities of ending up with someone else, it shows you are growing & healing. You are right, you can't have it both ways so you should set a time frame when you will give up the fight. Time will keep passing you by, if not. You don't want to have an indefinite "waiting" for reconciliation. It doesn't matter if it is 2 or 6 months or New Years Eve? Even if you are the only one who knows your deadline, at that point you can be at total peace in that you did all you could do.


If I could like this million times, I would.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

That's a great way of wording it WW. I don't want to set a hard deadline for real R but I need to think about the fact we may never be more than friends. Don't know I can be that for her tbh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SpunkySpunky (Dec 17, 2012)

K.C. said:


> That's a great way of wording it WW. I don't want to set a hard deadline for real R but I need to think about the fact we may never be more than friends. Don't know I can be that for her tbh.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And that is completely okay, KC.

It's rough.

Only you know what you can be(friends with her or not), and only you know what your limit is.

You're a great guy who is obviously intelligent and committed. That's admirable.

I know I could never be true friends with my stbxh, but hey if it can work for you and your w...well, I say go for it, but only if your heart agrees with your head.

Always listen to your head. It gives good advice sometimes.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

SpunkySpunky said:


> if it can work for you and your w...well, I say go for it, *but only if your heart agrees with your head*.
> 
> Always listen to your head. It gives good advice sometimes.


Yes.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I'd want to be friends. Her failing in our marriage are minor compared to mine, I don't hold any bitterness towards her, in many ways I am proud of her having the strength to do what she has.

I love her and would want her to be happy, even if that is without me and with someone else. If I am honest though I don't think putting myself into that position would be healthy for me though. A friend would be happy to see someone happy, but whatever front I could put on, I know I would hate it. However much I would want to remain friends, I don't know that I could actually do it. Sure I could fake it for the kids sake but that isn't the same thing as being friends.

There I go again worrying about the future when the present is actually pretty good. Gonna say sod it for now until when/if I have to worry about it.

In other news, I understood precisely none of that uni lecture.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

So back at my little room. bleh.

Was great to spend the last week back at home, but better today and so are the kids so there really was no excuse to hang around.

Still no progress at all since she said she was open to maybe working on things but the atmosphere was pretty comfortable. She could be thawing towards me or she could be fully into the friends zone. Maybe the 16th will shed light.

I still find it weird that having been so high sex drive my whole life that almost 5 months without is barely bothering me but the lack of other contact is killing me. I would literally kill for her to give me just a hug or hold hands.

3 weeks since she said maybe work on things. If I didn't have the 16th in mind due to the plans I have made i don't know how long I could hold off doing anything but hey, less than two weeks. I really do want some tangible sign of progress then if I am honest, even if it is just a small step forward. I don't want to stay stalled where we are long term, that would be torture if I went with it.

edit.. and still feel pretty damn good even though am back here. no crash and burn in sight so far. Woohoo.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

K.C. said:


> I still find it weird that having been so high sex drive my whole life that almost 5 months without is barely bothering me but the lack of other contact is killing me. I would literally kill for her to give me just a hug or hold hands.


I know how you feel KC. Going from having intimate touch daily to none at all is rough. Some moments I feel I would do almost anything for just a platonic hug or any physical form of comfort. Or a hand on a shoulder. 

A lot of that stems from my scared little boy, afraid of not being accepted by his parents. 

Working from home is challenging in this regard. Little to no contact with anyone in person through the week. A few moms at the school while I drop off and pick up D6. Clerks at the store. Sandwich maker at Subway. 

No wonder I find myself attracted to these women. They are the only people I talk to face to face through the week.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

That is rough Z.

Part of me wonders if I need to clarify my position with this. Maybe she thinks I just want to go back to having sex when the truth is I think about it less now than ever before. i just want that closeness and companionship we had back. Right her and now I don't care if we never have sex again if we could just be close.

That part of me is wrong though. I don't need to go over this as I have already communicated it all to her so I would juts be going back on what I have said I will do.. I would be finding an excuse to push my 'us' agenda and I cannot and will not do that.

This morning when I aked her something she again, like last week responded with "what was that love? I know I shouldn't but I get a massive buzz and boost in hope whenever she makes comments like that.

To my mind she is slowly coming around but it is tentative at best and I need to keep my cool or I will push her away again.

Not so long ago feeling like this would have had me in a spin, now though, I am fine. It's great to have hope but it is also great to have some level of acceptance that I can't do anything and have to just keep looking inwards and continuing my progress.

Someone is going tobe blown away by me one day. Whether that is her or not.. I am back to "I don't know" but I kind of like that. I don't know because while I am thoughtful of the past and consideing the future, I am focusing on the now. The 'now' is pretty good so what's to worry about.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I can definitely relate to the 'scared little boy'. I wouldn't wish my childhood on anyone at all. I do think it has a huge bearing on how I 'automatically' respond to things. I feel like I sometimes have to mentally step back form that automated response and actively consider what the man i want to be would do rather than the boy i was.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

K.C. said:


> That is rough Z.
> 
> Part of me wonders if I need to clarify my position with this. Maybe she thinks I just want to go back to having sex when the truth is I think about it less now than ever before. i just want that closeness and companionship we had back. Right her and now I don't care if we never have sex again if we could just be close.
> 
> ...


You know why this feels good and that is ok. Let it feel good. Be thankful for it. Just don't let it cloud your judgement. 



K.C. said:


> Not so long ago feeling like this would have had me in a spin, now though, I am fine. It's great to have hope but it is also great to have some level of acceptance that *I can't do anything and have to just keep looking inwards and continuing my progress.*
> 
> *Someone is going tobe blown away by me one day.* Whether that is her or not.. I am back to "I don't know" but I kind of like that. I don't know because while I am thoughtful of the past and consideing the future, I am focusing on the now. *The 'now' is pretty good so what's to worry about.*


Some great perspective shining through here!


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Wow, random mini crash..

No idea what triggered it but looked in the mirror and found myself wondering how I ever got Mrs.C in the first place. I have had self esteem issues as long as I can remember but have been feeling really good about myself recently so was weird to just suddenly have that thought.

Feeling a little better again now. Had a time out with the kids at bed time, went up with them and cuddled up with the youngest while me and the older two watched The Matrix. Not seen it in ages so was pretty cool. Was nice. Came back to some sense being slapped into me in social which was really nice too if a little  !

Still trying to figure out what triggered that but meh, maybe I should just let it go. On the plus, in the pst that sort of negative thought would have ate away at me and started a massive spiral but while I don't feel as positive as before he mini crash, I don't feel myslef falling lower so, progress I guess. :smthumbup:


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## Chris from IL (Jan 15, 2013)

K.C. said:


> That is rough Z.
> 
> Part of me wonders if I need to clarify my position with this. Maybe she thinks I just want to go back to having sex when the truth is I think about it less now than ever before. i just want that closeness and companionship we had back. Right her and now I don't care if we never have sex again if we could just be close.
> 
> ...


I think you wrote something about this in one of my threads KC - we analyze EVERYTHING she says or does, and we try to put a meaning on it. We (at least I) - desparately hope for the marriage, bu continue to work on ourselves in the event that it doesn't turn out the way we would have hoped. As they say, 1 day at a time eh?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Yeah, instead of reacting to it I come here instead.

I do get a buzz out of what I am trying to think of as verbal slips, as I think even if it is subconscious it shows there are feelings still there. But I also know I am maybe grasping at straws with it too. 

She will come around or she won't. Me jumping on any little thing will only hinder that possibility. Sometimes I need to see that in black and white on here to believe it though.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

K.C. said:


> Yeah, instead of reacting to it I come here instead.
> 
> I do get a buzz out of what I am trying to think of as verbal slips, as I think even if it is subconscious it shows there are feelings still there. But I also know I am maybe grasping at straws with it too.
> 
> She will come around or she won't. Me jumping on any little thing will only hinder that possibility. Sometimes I need to see that in black and white on here to believe it though.


It happens (the buzz). I suppose it's only natural after a long time and kids together, etc. I still get it when I see X at kid swap, from a smile, laugh or look - even though I'm not sure I would take her back. 

The verbal slip, I dunno. I haven't let loose any verbal slips with X. There have been some "babe"s and "hon"s from her though.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Bleh.

Bored out of my tiny little mind.

Sick of the sight of these four walls right now.

Doesnt feel like a crash or down, just total unshakable boredom.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

K.C. said:


> Bleh.
> 
> Bored out of my tiny little mind.
> 
> ...


take up yoga. 

Not even kidding. good for the body and also calms me down when I get bored and stir crazy.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Never considered it but hmm, maybe. I already do breathing and meditation things to help with my darker moments, would make a certain amount of sense to move that on a level.

I don't feel particularly down just very meh about it all atm. Lack of motivation. Lack of interest in doing anything. Pretty surefire signs of the start of a depressed period, I am hoping spotting it before it really kicks in with the negative thought spiral will help me stay out of the dark this time.

Fingers crossed.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Woke up feeling the same. I am still pretty positive about 'me'. I am not getting on my own back about failing or any such stuff. So woohoo on that score.

Yesterday I did a few things for her that she asked if I possibly could if I had time. Later on got a 'you're a star' text which made my day. I am SO still seeking/craving validation from her. Something to work on there for sure. I don't feel bad or like a doormat for doing the few things. They were no trouble and as I have said, I want to be there for her and my family. Maybe it was a test, maybe she simply wanted the favour but either way, no biggie, was happy to do it.

No, the big thing for me atm is boredom/motivation. I thought Uni this week would be a massive help.. all it has done is made me see how far behind my studies I have fallen and I am unsure where to start with the catch up.. meaning I am not doing what needs to be done and falling further behind rather than catching up.

I can't decide if I need a good b!tchslap and 2x4'ing or if I need to take a step back and give myself a free pass on this slip and get to work on refinding my focus.

I feel like am on the verge of a big depressed episode.. when I have hit this point before I have tended to get hyper critical of myself and boom, downward spiral. Feel like I have made massive prgress here.. I have spotted what is happening and I am avoiding the self criticism (mostly).

I wonder if giving myself that free pass is just counter to regaining motivation though.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Just posted this elswhere and found it theraputic so it's going here too. 

....................................................

:soapbox: :rant:

My Dad taught me it was ok to give up on your kids when the going got tough and access was hard. That it's ok to focus on beer when you have kids at home.

My Mum taught me it was ok to walk away from your marriage and later on your kids when someone better came along and that putting your happiness ahead of your kids is just fine and dandy. 

My StepDad taught me the nature and meaning of evil and hate. That morality is optional and that do unto others that can't stop you, exactly as you please is an acceptable way of life. That it is OK to live off the state. He taught me to be broken and bowed.

..................................................


Somehow I am still standing despite it all so I guess what I was really taught is how to be strong all by yourself without a support network. How to fend for yourself and fight the hard fight against all the odds.

So yeah thanks, you made me into what I am. Which is someone far more amazing than all of you put together. 

F U all, you aren't worth anymore of my time or thoughts.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Nope, can't shake the cloud today. Feeling like am going t do something stupid when she gets home tonight.

I probably need to haul ass out of here asap once the kids are ready for bed. I have been doing so well and we have been getting on so well but am feeling weak and insecure all of a sudden. I want to move things along and get some sign of working on things.

Have to find a way to resist but the feeling is overwhelming me at the moment. :banghead:  :banghead:  :banghead:


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## Chris from IL (Jan 15, 2013)

Well, being separated 4 times, im probly the last person that should be giving advice. Anyway, if you must, maybe allow yourself to try something very small, or follow your initial reaction and leave after the kids are put to bed?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Thing is i KNOW it's a mistake to push. It breaks the promise I made to myself and to her. I know it's just being under my dark cloud making me want to do it.

One of my main resolutions has been to be true to myself.. if I do something I know is a mistake I have broken that too. I can't let my Mr Hyde spoil the work my Dr Jekyll has been doing.


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## Chris from IL (Jan 15, 2013)

Sounds like you know what to do then. Just say something nice to her as you make your grand exit
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Maybe I should find a cape to "swish" dramatically on the way out too!


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## Chris from IL (Jan 15, 2013)

Lol, not a bad idea ..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

stay strong, "Mr Hyde" is running out of patience of you doing so much good & is ready to screw things up for you, so don't let him. As I & others have told you, you can't keep a foot in and a foot out for a long time without consequences, you are only human.
You've been walking on thin ice & the cracking is getting worse.
As much as it will hurt, you have to lay it on the line with her, marriage or just friends, you have to know where you stand? If she chooses friend, then you have to adopt that mindset to free yourself from "limbo" hell. You can still be with your kids & be nice to her but begin to emotionally withdraw. Trust me, you will feel saddened but a huge burden will be lifted. It might not be a "real" marriage by doing this but it lets you survive.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Regarding us, I do think I have been dealing OK mostly. I haven't had any breakdowns with her at all. Couple rants on here but before, the rants on here were after having slipped with her, whereas I have now managed to keep it here. I think it's just lonliness / general depression sh!t that has knocked me back with the relationship stuff today.

Kids had after school childcare lined up but I went and got em from school myself seeing as was about anyway. Feel a bit saner just for having my boys with me.

If the Valentines plans don't get any progress I will have some thinking to do but right now, all I have to do is make it to the 16th. I need to go one way or the other at some point but I am willing to take as long as needed to repair things, I just need to feel like we are working towards it and I'll be happy. I don't know how long i can go with 'maybe we'll work on it' before going insane though.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

You got a buzz and and are craving another hit. Do not beg the dealer for more - it is not free.


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## Chris from IL (Jan 15, 2013)

zillard said:


> You got a buzz and and are craving another hit. Do not beg the dealer for more - it is not free.


Very apt.... my name is Chris, and I'm a junkie too
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

zillard said:


> You got a buzz and and are craving another hit. Do not beg the dealer for more - it is not free.


Sir yes sir. 

Had posted this elsewheer as was thinking of it as an alternative to actually saying/doing anything directly...



K.C. said:


> Thinking of sneaking this onto Mrs.C's pillow right before leaving for the rental when the kids are in bed..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe I should go with not doing anything at all for now.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Proud of myself. Thanks for the replies guys.

Kids in bed, dinner dishes done, said good night and left.

No talks, no gestures, no little gift left to be found. Nothing.

Woohoo.

Hope it's not an opportunity missed but better that than a set back at this point I guess.

The little thing was going to leave will be left with valentines card on 14th instead and then we'll see what happens on the 16th when we go out. Getting rather nervous about that lol but I don't expect a huge amount. Something as little as holding hands would be massive. Could be nothing happens at all and it's just like two friends in which case I think we would have to talk about where if anywhere she see's things going.

In the meantime I need to 2x4 some sense and motivation back into myself.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

> It's a game called circle and I don't know how, I'm way too up to back down
> But I think I'm still trying to figure this crap out
> Thought I had it mapped out but I guess I didn't, this ****ing black cloud
> Still follows, me around but it's time to exorcise these demons
> These mother****ers are doing jumping jacks now!





> And I just can't keep living this way
> So starting today, I'm breaking out of this cage
> I'm standing up, I'ma face my demons
> I'm manning up, I'ma hold my ground
> ...


Eminem - Not Afraid - YouTube


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

RAWR!

So err yeah I'm back. Mr Hyde got a kicking and is back in his cage again.

I really think yesterday was less about "her" and "us" than it was to do with being lonely and generally depressed. Posts here might not make it look like it but I really do think I handled it a lot better than in the past and I am quite proud of myself for keeping it together, With a little help from my TAM friends of course. You guys rock.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I wish i wasnt in work. I suspect i am becoming addicted to TAM.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Still feeling ok today.

I am re-making my promise to myself to not do anything until valentines and the 16th. 

No reaching out.
No gestures.
No us talk. 
No hanging around the house longer than needed unless invited.
No pressure, nothing.

Still intend to go all out with my actions rather than words on the 14th and 16th but until then I need to keep this step back and let things play out.

Have been doing really well with this and I can't spoil it now. Even with my wobbles I have been keeping back and resisting the urges. I just need to keep going with that.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

I would be careful not to go overboard on Vday. 

She has said you two are not back together. I would treat her more like a date that you'd love to see again than the love of your life. 

But yes - actions more than words.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Yeah. Thats kinda the frame of mind i'm aiming for.

I am kinda scared witless.. The last time was this nervous was the first time we went out a decade ago lol.

I'd like to be able to hold her hand while a kiss goodnight would blow my mind but is more than i expect.

Any progress at all like that would be amazing but i am very much aware it could just end up like 2 friends and i am trying to keep that in mind without letting it freak me out.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Well that's good. You are nervous like you are dating rather than expecting to get laid. Good place to be. 

Like in the dating world - just have a good time and enjoy the company!


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I'll try not that i can remember as far back as the dating world!

I'd say there is apx 0% chance of 'getting laid and I am 100% ok with that. Not that I wouldnt love to go there but it really isn't on my mind.

Well it is a little now. Oops. 

As someone that historically obsessed over sex, its a good frame of mind to find myself in.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

No matter how it goes, don't get discouraged. Dating your spouse is hard because you know you are married to her & it is unnatural to act as if you are not. What is your best case scenario for Valentines & what will you still be okay with? I think it is important to prepare yourself with various outcomes, so you aren't crushed.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

All i hope for is a solid indicator of being more than friends. A fun night where we maybe hold hands or link arms woild be solid progress to my mind.

I worry i am obsessed over physical indicators though. Partly as they are harder to misconstrue than verbal ones.

Thinking how i will handle no indication of attraction or affection is what i am thinking about a lot atm. I really do believe it is still in her but i am all to aware i could be blowing smoke up my own ass at this point.

I just want to be able to say we honstly tried and did everything we coud to mend things. I am willing for that to be a gradual as she needs, i just need to feel like we are at least working towards being together again even of we are not there or even close yet.

I want to get out of limbo i guess but i am not close to being ready to close the door myself.

If that makes sense?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Hmm just read this back.. bit long and rambly heh.

So tomorrow marks the 4 wk landmark from the whole "not back together but maybe" thing. Seems ike kind of a big deal.

There has been zero progress in those four weeks, absolutely nothing towards R of any sort (I occasionally try to tell myself otherwise but pfft.. 2x4 time) but I have got better (despite the wobbles) at dealing with this. I have gone from total meltdown for any reason at all, to wobbling AFTER reaching out, to wobbling on TAM instead of reaching out so err yeah WOOHOO.

There was that chat couple weeks ago instigated by her, where she said I was acting too 'back together" but thinking back I disagree. I think it's just that the "maybe talk" did calm me down a lot and that was the difference she saw. I am "fairly" sure I have kept the emotions and reaching out under wraps for the most part. Wobbles here on TAM, normality there.

Not claiming to have it mastered but it's a lot better.

Now I find myself again thinking of the future again. How long do I give it for us to start working at things in reality rather than just thought before I accept defeat and move on? I can't give an honest answer right now. I simply don't know. I just accept i can't live like this for ever. At some point I have to be out of limbo one way or another. Do I set a deadline or just see when the feeling comes?

I do feel like I can take an R process however slowly is needed so long as it is an honest real attempt, but we are not in R and I am not moved on or even trying to.. this limbo sh!t is well, err sh!t and can't be indefinite or I'll go loopy (says the man on happy pills etc lol))

I honestly am working on myself and I feel like myself again for hte first time in a few years. I am going to rock whichever future I get. I know which one i'd choose but it's hardly my choice at this point is it. If that is a future with Mrs.C, I will be a much better husband as a result of being a better K.C. I will actually be a worst husband in the way i used to think.,. i intend to have alife other than my family, but that K.C. wasnt a very healthy person. If there is no Mrs.C in my future, well again, I will be a much better K.C regardless. Hopefully I am not deluding myself but I am trying to keep my mind on the brutal unwelcome fact that IS very possible (maybe probably even) and I have to prepare for that.

I am interacting with other people more like I used to. Even flirting a little with the occasional person... though that does make me a little uncomfortable as I don't consider myself available. It's 10 years since I was 'on the market' and I was never great at it so 10 years of being totally focused on my wife means I don't have a clue how to it nor am i focusing on it so it's probably cringeworthy attempts at flirting but pfft. Guess i am just trying to put myself out there in any and every way. No intention or intent to move on right now but there are a very small number of women I think are, well I don't even know? Interesting? Attractive? This is so confusing but I am accepting it. I still want Mrs.C very much but again, it's not my choice. I could be 100% successful in fixing myself and she could still say no. 

Truth sucks but it is truth anyway.

Anyway, thanks to everyone that checks in on me, TAM has been amazing in helping me keep sane seeing as my RL support network pretty much doesnt exist. I appreciate al the support and advice even when I stubbornly/blindly/stupidly choose to ignore it! 

Oh and almost forgot to say.. still feeling pretty damn good about myself right now.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

You're doing fine, KC. 

I think your thought about how long you give it before you throw in the towel, same for so many of us, I'm sure. You love your wife, you pine for her to come to her senses, quit playing all these stupid mind games. But it doesn't happen. What you get are tiny signals followed by more indifference and silence. Nothing worse than the silence.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

A timeline will help you immensely. This has been a good year for me so far, because of my New Years deadline. I had to decide once & for all to either accept things the way they are or leave. I chose to stay & haven't worried about anything since. It is all about the mindset.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Yeah I think will see how this week goes and then give it some thought from there.

I am committed to being patient and doing things at her pace, but that is based on the idea we are working towards R at some point. I am showing her the real me is back at the moment and very much being there for her as required. I know some advise to let her miss me but she spent the last two years missing me as I wasn't the man she married while swamped by my dark cloud so I still think this is the right approach. 

What I don't know is how long to keep it up or when to call it a day in order to protect myself emotionally. Definitely need to give this some serious thought if there is no change at all this weekend. I feel I need to hear her say we are working on things with a view to R if we can fix the things that are needed. This 'maybe we will work on it' is to sketchy for me. Maybe I just need clarification on her stance but I will wait on doing that.

As this is such a big deal for me I have shift swapped my usual Sunday, so after the Saturday night, if it goes well I am available to build on it as the kids are away the whole weekend. We could spend some time doing/talking whatever on Sunday if she wants to. If it goes badly (as i have to keep reminding myself is quite possible) and I am 'in bits again' I don't have to worry about a brave face in work and will have the Sunday to get my self back together if need be.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Also, inspired by the social threads on TAM.. I am considering recording a song using Vocaroo and mailing it her on Vday itself. Trying to decide on a suitable song though.

I want to serenade her (as best my voice allows) but don't want to just do it in person and put her on the spot to respond. 

Again I am wanting to make gestures and show my feelings but without it being pushy or making her feel she has to commit to something there and then.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Morning, KC. Sounds like you've got a viable plan. You don't want to sit like a potted plant forever waiting for some steps forward. But you've also been to the dark side of the forest, and hope that R is still possible. 

Like many on here have advised me, you'll know when it's time to continue trying for R or to simply walk away. But it does sound like you've really thought this true and not just lurching from one crisis to the next, like a boxer on the ropes. 

Let us know how it goes.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Well I made a card for Vday for her and composed and wrote the words for inside

I'm not very artistic so it is kinda like me. Rough around the edges but true, honest and totally for her.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Liverpool match on TV and I am actually not working for it for a change.

Woohoo.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Sorry if I missed but what are you plans for Vday? Are you going to the house and spending time with her? 

I know you had a possible outing planned for the 16th but don't remember about the 14th.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I'll be there with the kids same as every weekday. 

On Vday itself I am giving her the card and mini paper roses I have made today. That will be in the morning. I am usually there in the morning to help sort out the kids but I am considering making an excuse so that she gets them without me there to avoid any feelings of pressure or upset/guilt seeing as there is a high chance she won't be getting me anything I guess.

I am undecided on the evening. I was thinking perhaps have a bath run for her when she gets back from work and make her a nice meal while she is in it but...

I don't know. Maybe the card and little gift should be it and then make my self scarce as soon as possible in the evening. I will be there waiting for a response that may well not come and she may feel uncomfortable with me hanging around on Vday especially if she hasn't got anything for me which as I say, I think is likely.

Maybe other than the card, treat it as any other day and see how things pan out for the weekend once the kids are at their Nans. 

Any attempts to work on things need to be done away from the kids anyway, as it wouldn't be fair to them for us to be on-off-on etc unless we got a lot further down the R route and were both committed to making it work.

In other news.. Liverpool lost so I am sulking.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

K.C. said:


> Also, inspired by the social threads on TAM.. I am considering recording a song using Vocaroo and mailing it her on Vday itself. Trying to decide on a suitable song though.
> 
> I want to serenade her (as best my voice allows) but don't want to just do it in person and put her on the spot to respond.
> 
> Again I am wanting to make gestures and show my feelings but without it being pushy or making her feel she has to commit to something there and then.


Stop

Historically, have you been able to get her to laugh?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Yes, why?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

K.C. said:


> Yes, why?


Stop with the romance.

Do something to make her laugh - and make it "gifty"

If you listen to women when they're musing, they'll tell you they fell in love with this guy or that guy because he "made them laugh".

It's a gift to be able to do that.

And, you hear story after story of how women are overwhelmed with the pressures of daily life and they blame their husbands. Oftentimes, we buckle our chinstraps and try to "nice" our way through it - and lose our sense of humor in the process.

Life is to be lived - and humor is the currency of intimacy.

Making her laugh will never be viewed as needy. It will be viewed as giving... and - most importantly - as strength.

Damn, he knows me. He knows my sense of humor. He can make me laugh.

Think about it.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

We have always laughed together, even now we do make each other laugh so that is encouraging to hear.

I don't "know how to make her laugh" as such, my humour tends to be spur of the moment or observational so I don't know how I would plan something like that?

As toi the romance. I have never been overtly romantic and one of her complaints was that I failed to make special occasions seem special and by extension make her feel special.. Her gestures around Valentines and anniversaries were always much better thought out than my last second attempts or I am shamed to admit forgotten occasions.

Special occasions just never registered with me. SO I am trying to show I finally understand they matter to her.

On that basis you really think it's a bad idea to try and woo her a little?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

It's not a bad idea, but remember that humor is intimacy.

You may want to mix in some self-effacing humor about your performance on these special occasions.

Like a worthless gift that she would hate as a Trojan Horse.

Then roll out the nice stuff.



K.C. said:


> We have always laughed together, even now we do make each other laugh so that is encouraging to hear.
> 
> I don't "know how to make her laugh" as such, my humour tends to be spur of the moment or observational so I don't know how I would plan something like that?
> 
> ...


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

This is true, and a great idea. 

Goof off with the kids too and get them to laugh. 

Since you have a history of depression, I'm assuming you went through a period where this wasn't happening as often, correct?

If you can make her and your kids crack up, you are:

Happier
More confident
Not desperate
Fun
A good father
and therefore more attractive.

Plus, laughter produces endorphins.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Conrad said:


> It's not a bad idea, but remember that humor is intimacy.
> 
> You may want to mix in some self-effacing humor about your performance on these special occasions.
> 
> ...


Hmm that is an interesting perspective.

Was so focused on the 'gesture' and actually making an effort I hadn't really given that actual interaction on the day as much thought as maybe I should.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

K.C. said:


> Hmm that is an interesting perspective.
> 
> Was so focused on the 'gesture' and actually making an effort I hadn't really given that actual interaction on the day as much thought as maybe I should.


Lightheartedness is interpreted as confidence and strength.

THAT is attractive to all women.

Forget it at your peril.


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## BFGuru (Jan 28, 2013)

I, for one, would love any one of these gestures.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

zillard said:


> This is true, and a great idea.
> 
> Goof off with the kids too and get them to laugh.
> 
> ...


You are spot on. I have always been able to have a laugh but for the last couple of years not so much.

Since attacking my issues;

I am happier. Its mental to be happier when it's so painful to be separated but it is the case. I had to consider if the happiness is because of being "set free" but it certainly isn't that. It's because I am owning my issues, resolving to repair them. A weight has been lifted since I made that mental change. Oh and the happy pills help too. 

Confidence is a work in progress. Don't know how to rate that. Appearing confident will I guess be a knock on from the other things.

Fun and the kids, well like I say we have a laugh together even now and being a good dad comes naturally. In my depression I had become very snappy and short tempered but other than that I have a great relationship with the boys. The snapping and grumpiness have largely subsided. I find it pretty easy to goof around with the boys whether she is there at the time to see it or not. Even when she was totally done and very angry and resentful, she acknowledged I am a good Dad.

The desperate bit.. well err yeah. So that has been the problem since separation. I made it all too clear how desperate I am for a good while, though I have sat back from that at last. On the 14th it will have been 31 days since I last broached any us talk and even that was instigated by her "maybe we can work on it" text though I instigated the talk the day before that so 31 days is fair non the less. How well my body language has covered that longing for her I am less sure but I have been trying.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

BFGuru said:


> I, for one, would love any one of these gestures.


Please tell me you are secretly my wife?!?! :rofl:


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## BFGuru (Jan 28, 2013)

O.k. 

.
.
.
.
.
.
Oh wait, I declared I was joining an atheist nunnery after he leaves. That might not work.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

K.C.

You want to show some masculine mettle?

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html

Read all those links.

Give you some good food for thought over the next several days.

You'll see me in there. At least an earlier version




K.C. said:


> You are spot on. I have always been able to have a laugh but for the last couple of years not so much.
> 
> Since attacking my issues;
> 
> ...


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Will be looking through those, thanks Conrad.

I tell you what, this soul searching, thinking and working on myself is exhausting. I am really tired and need to start kicking my ass into doing more.

I have reached a plateau a bit. Been so happy with the progress I have made that I have not been pushing so hard to make more, instead just maintaining where I am. Occurred to me this morning that is affecting my motivation to do some things I was set on, like catching up with Uni and working out regularly. 

I have been finding excuses to do this tomorrow or that the day after while patting myself on the back for what I did last yesterday or last week. I am still proud of the progress I have made, a few months ago I wouldn't have been making any effort and certainly not acknowledging and being happy for achieving things. But, if I know I am still on the road rather than at the destination, why the hell am I not moving forward? Why have I stopped pushing myself? I may have been in danger of getting complacent? 

I need to keep pushing. The changes I have made can't be considered permanent until I don't have to remind myself to maintain them. I am happier with myself than in a long time but I have not got to where I said I needed to be, where I want to be. 

I am better than I was and feel like myself again but I am not all I feel I can be yet. Got to get back to work on me if I am going to make that a reality.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

So motivation is still a struggle. Blowing back the dark cloud is so tiring ffs.

I don't want to slip into using that as an excuse but I have made no tangible progress since that pep talk post to myself yesterday.

There is a study/time management technique Mrs.C used in Uni that I asked her about this morning. It's called The Pomodoro Technique. Worked really well for her so I think will look into it some more try and implement it.

Got to get some focus and structure and start getting my sh!t done.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

K.C. said:


> So motivation is still a struggle. Blowing back the dark cloud is so tiring ffs.
> 
> I don't want to slip into using that as an excuse but I have made no tangible progress since that pep talk post to myself yesterday.
> 
> ...


When you take a step in the right direction do you ever allow yourself to just enjoy it, or do you start searching for 'the next big thing' right away?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Historically I brushed of my successes and achievements is insignificant or still not quite good enough so I would push again only to feel like I was failing the whole way.

One of the things I have been doing is stopping to acknowledge my small victories. Thing is, I am feeling like I have settled at this stage too long now and am at risk of staying here when I have further to go to reach where I want to be?


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Your right, KC, it's all about small victories.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Well made myself have one today. I did have to force myself too!

Just done a workout suggested in the workout thread. It's only one time but it's another step, now I need to keep it up as a daily thing. Something tangible to focus on.


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

thinking of you KC, stay positive


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

So she has the card.

Squeeky bum time.

Edit.. No she doesnt lol. I didnt leave it out to make sure the boys didnt see it.

Soon though heh.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Go upstairs and see it and let me see what reaction aaargggh. 

Anxious as hell. Put me out of my misery heh.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

K.C. said:


> Go upstairs and see it and let me see what reaction aaargggh.
> 
> Anxious as hell. Put me out of my misery heh.


Enhance your calm.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Hah. I'll get right on that.

Just as soon as she goes into her room.

Keeping it under wraps well though. Like a duck in a pond. All calm on the surface but there is some crazy stuff going on underneath!

Ooh. On that note, time for my happy pills.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

She said thank you and didn't seem weirded out or annoyed. So neutral i guess.

I can deal with that. The gear was that the reaction would be negative. Held off on flowers / voice recording as thought it might be too much.

Maybe on saturday depending how things seem to be.

In the meantime back to not pushing or prompting unless she does something to invite it.

I can't expect one card and gift to change anything by itself but maybe it will be a step in tbe right direction. Suppose time will tell.


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## Chris from IL (Jan 15, 2013)

So no negative reaction is itself a small victory? I gave mine a couple cards and a small gift, won't see a her reaction until tonight. Tomorrow your big day?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

So, today went well. Never felt like losing it. Had a mofo of a headache though. Coincedence or anxiety hoping for response? Dunno.

I didnt say or do anthing to push other than the card so kept to my plan. Kids all made her a card. An me?

Total cards recieved. 0.
Happy VD wishes recieved 0.

As expected but it does make me sad.

Day 2 of excercise and shoulders gave up after first set of push ups. Guess I over did it day one. So mostly just cardio.

Now walking back to rental. Again feeling the dark cloud approach an Mr Hyde is rattling the cage door. Umbrella in on hand for the downpour. 2x4 in the other for Mr Hyde. 

Sorry but K.C. Isnt in the mood to play gamed so jusy bring it and i'll kick your ass.

No pity party tonight if I get a say!


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Happy Valentine's Day KC!

Change that zero to a 1.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

zillard said:


> Happy Valentine's Day KC!
> 
> Change that zero to a 1.


I'm glad you changed your avatar before sending that greeting.

I'm imagining getting Valentine's wishes from a skull.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Haha, should have said none TAM I guess.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

KC

You did your best. You were thoughtful and considerate. 

All you can do.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I thought I did well. She thanked me for the card and is impressed with what I am taking her to see Sat night. She could easily have handed the card back or been annoyed by it but that wasnt the case.

I did it in such a way the kids didnt see it so they dont get confused or their hopes up. Pretty pleased overall.

The big thing is tomorrow. The kids go their Nans around midday then its just the two of us. I need to be disciplined and not get all emotional but I think i have that down now. Just going to take it easy have a fun day. Trying to think of it as a first date where you dont know how much they are going to like you.

Am scared it could all go horribly wrong but excited at the chance for the two of us to spend some time together properly.

I am not expecting much. I have to be honest and say I am hopeful of a lot but, earning her trust and respect back isnt going to be a quick easy job on the back of the last two years. Some tangible progress would be great though. We cerainly wont be "back together as husband and wife" at the end of the weekend but I would love "open to the idea of working on things" to become "will work on things".

Not been this nervous since the last time we went on a 1st date a decade ago!

Fingers crossed.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

It all sounds very positive. 

Of course you are nervous, wanting it all to go well, to make progress, even if it's baby steps. 

It seems to me a really good thing, she hasnt closed the door on you, she knows you are trying. You make mistakes, like we all do, but soldier on afterwards. 

Hang tough and keep us posted on what transpires.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

She just left to take kids ro their nans.

Couple hours to nip shop for making meal and tidy up before she gets back.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Gotta have a plan and it sounds like you've got one. What's on the menu?


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

Thinking of you KC. Try to relax and be sure to enjoy the day yourself. I'd be surprised if she doesn't appreciate the effort you've gone to and feel a little warmer to you. Good luck


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

So Roses on the table of course.

Butterbean and Choizo Soup to start.
Steak with Potatoes roasted with bacon and garlic and seasoned green veg. Got to come up with a sauce with limited ingrediants next.
Then heart shaped Belgian chocolate cheesecake to finish.

Rose wine and non alcohol rose grape drink as she wants to drive.


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

Sounds amazing!


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Yes, sounds wonderful.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

KC

We're waiting for an update. 

And don't take this the wrong way, but if all doesn't go well, I can get you a job as a chef here in Wahington.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Had a great night. Doesnt feel like any progress though. She liked the meal and flowers and loved the show.

I held her hand and told her I enjoyed the night, she let me but said to not be expecting anything now.

She has gone to bed and now I'm wondering wtf that actually means.

I dont want anything now. I just wanr her to commit to trying.

Damn. Back to giving her space and trying to detach to protect myself for if/when the time comes to call it. 

At least I didnt do anything stupid to go backwards but I dont want to tread water for ever. Patience I guess.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

KC

God on you for not back-tracking. Your instincts are right, it's all about PATIENCE. 

Men always hope for results. Women are okay with letting it run it's course

Don't second guess yourself. You love this woman and you must be willing to wait it out. 

All good things are worth waiting for.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

As long as I'm not becoming plan B. There is no sign of that atm regarding her going out etc but I am not ok with being a back up incase nothing better comes along if that is how she starts seeing it.

Despite my past failings the real me that is mostly here now deserves better than that.

I have made a real effort to show the real me but at some point soon I may need to step back completely other than the kids for my own sanity.

Limbo cannot be forever. But yeah I still want to be with her, being with anyone else holds no interest for me and the thought of her with anyone else...

How long does patience remain a virtue and when does it become stupidity. That time isn't now but it is something to consider for sure.

On the plus I am not at all bummed. I didn't get my wish but it was a nice night and she may have dropped a not so subtle hint for some where she'd like to go next.. We shall see on that as I will look into it asap.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Agreed, KC. Patience can't be forever. 

Can't accept concept of being Plan B. 

Other women hold no interest. The thought of some other guy on your couch with your kids makes you homicidal. 

This is the same B.S. I obsess about all day. Why does it have to be this way?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

It doesnt have to be.

For whatever reason we choose for it to be. We "could" just walk away afterall but emotions and feelings are what they are until you decide to change em.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

I guess you're right. 

You fought the good fight. Give it more time, amigo.


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## SpunkySpunky (Dec 17, 2012)

Agreeing with you and Bullwinkle.

You are fighting the good fight and there is no shame in that...until you're fighting a lost cause that is. I know I can say I fought my hardest...even when I knew it was all lost...because I couldn't be the only one trying to hold stuff together. It's like trying to catch a runaway train, running barefoot over hot coals. Daunting, and ultimately a very painful waste of energy and heart. If it ever becomes apparent that you are becoming a plan B or if it seems like you will be in a forever limbo, or hey, if you just decide you've had enough...there is no shame in walking away.

But only you can know when to call it quits.

In my case, I should've quit long before I finally did, but I don't regret it. Atleast I can say I really tried.


And you can too. Who knows, things could fall back into place again. But do know, that if it doesn't work out...you aren't a failure. But don't get discouraged yet, you're still in the game. Just don't let it consume you.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Thanks Spunky.

I did worry no progress would have me going off the deep end but I'm good. Not exactly happy of course but it was a good show and nice night and I have ended it feeling ok so woo.

I want to clarify where we are too. I think we are square one until she commits go working on things. Of course I am working on things myself anyway but does she think "this" is working on things? I dont think so but it's hard to not second guess.

There were some silences tonight. In the past that would have just been us being comfortable with each other but is she seeing them as a lack of things to talk about?

It's all so damn hard lol.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Oh man, I have been doing so well..

Going through loads of old stuff to get rid of any clutter. Came across wedding anniversary and valentines cards etc we kept.

Love forever. Soul mate. Best friend. And so on.

Ohoh.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

KC

Sorry to hear you came across the pictures, cards. Great timing, eh?

Try not to let them get you down. I know, easier said than done. 

Happened to me too yesterday. Found a picture of WS holding our newborn daughter. Made me weepy as a schoolgirl. 

Don't get discouraged, mate. Hang tough.


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

Oh I hate it when I come across cards and pics, still hurts like hell. Try not to dwell on it. Do something to get it out of your head!


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Yup. Timing sucked.

Thinking I might ask her to read them as I think she may have been trying to convince herself she was never truely deeply in love with me even before the bad times...

I will keep it together but that actually seems like a worthwhile thing to do if we talk about where we are and where we are going at some point.

Grrrrr. Back to wanting to push FFS.


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## cantmove (Feb 20, 2012)

K.C. said:


> Yup. Timing sucked.
> 
> Thinking I might ask her to read them as I think she may have been trying to convince herself she was never truely deeply in love with me even before the bad times...
> 
> ...


Please don't ask her to do that. It will be a mistake. It won't get you the response you want. It will just make you look needy. I wouldn't say this if I didn't know what I was talking about.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

But I am needy....

Waa waaa...

I guess your right. It's just limbo SUCKS ffs.


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## cantmove (Feb 20, 2012)

I know limbo sucks. I was there for a long time. Walking on a lot of eggshells, trying to be perfect, reminding him of the good times, showing him cards, letters, photos. All the while looking less and less attractive to him. She will either come back or she won't. You have no control over that. You only have control over how long you are willing to stay in limbo. For your sake I hope you don't stay there long. 

You actively moving on may be what she needs to see before she remembers that you are what she wants. Sometimes they never do. You have to be prepared for that possibility.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I am. Kind of. I know it it is true but the heart is lagging behind.

Sometimes I wish there had been an affair or similar. She isnt blame free by any means but her things were minor.

It is painful to lool at those memories knowing the one who really threw it away was me, or at least my Mr Hyde.


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## cantmove (Feb 20, 2012)

It takes two people to screw it up, even when there is an affair. My ex did cheat, but I readily admit I played a part in messing up our marriage.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

It may sound like I am beating myself or taking too much blame but our key issue was my long term major depression and my refusal to deal with it. Yes she gave up trying to reach me and started to put up walls to protect herself that made my depression even worst but I can look back now and see her trying for so long to reach me before ahe did that.

We ever get back together we both have to make changes. I am making mine regardless but trying to say equal blame or even 60~40 split woulld be me fooling myself.

I am going to beat this depression but I have to be totally honest about my failings to do that.

Feeling ok again. My wobbles are more infrequent and dont drop me totally to the floor now. At least in part thanksto kind words and guidance on here.

TAM ~ the best thing since sliced bread.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Here is my take, on your past few days. I think you handled yourself admirably with the results that you got, you should be proud. While I do think your wife appreciates what you did, with the date, card etc, she was only showing kindness, like anyone should. The comment she made after the "hand holding" spoke volumes in that she doesn't want what you want. I don't believe she wants to purposely hurt you & she wants to get along, but if you act like you two are husband & wife again, hurt or not, she will repel you.
Sad fully I don't see this changing tomorrow or next month. She'll let you stay in limbo as long as you can stand it. My advice is to "pull away" now. She is seeing the "new" you & not acting any different so show her now what she is missing, by not being there. Spend time with your kids, be courteous to her but that's it. No comments, small talk etc. It probably won't bother her at all & hurt you more, but hopefully help you escape limbo. Experimenting or testing is painful, but in the end it makes you see more clearly.
I once did a test with my wife & stopped kissing her entirely, hoping it would affect her, knowing if it didn't, it would hurt. We made it over a month before I told her what I was doing. She noticed but it was no big deal- OUCH! It was another proven example of how different our view of marriage has changed. I realize she will never be what I had hoped for, but have just accepted it.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Well I said if no progress I'd have some thinking to do, so the thinking hat is on believe me.

If she can't commit to even trying, I have to go forward on the basis it's over? Makes logical sense but of course doesn't feel right.  :scratchhead:


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

You might want to just point blank ask her if she is done being your "wife" forever & if so then what kind of relationship does she expect to have with you? This would give you answers you are afraid of, but will throw you out of limbo & show you where you stand so you can progress one way or the other. Do it in a non threatening, non pressuring way, but a firm one that you want a definitive answer. Tell her you will quit "fishing", if there is no chance of catching a fish, namely her.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I was thinking more "are we working on us with a view to getting back together or not?"

It's a lot less final than yours.. heh wonder why that might be.. I am complaining about limbo but then embracing it from fear of that finality.

It will take some thinking before deciding. I feel like I owe her longer than this to figure out what she actually wants. That would mean more limbo while playing it cool. I need to decide if I can handle that or not.

In other news I want to see if I can switch degree to Psychology. It is much more interesting and easily engaged in for me than my current Maths course. I went with maths partially as I thought it was the subject I was best at but I am far behind and struggling to catch up due to the nature of the programme.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Thinking without over thinking is hard.

Sleep time instead.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Give it more time, KC. 

You'll know in your heat when it's time to throw in the towel.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Bullwinkle said:


> Give it more time, KC.
> 
> You'll know in your heat when it's time to throw in the towel.


That's where I am but I don't want to hand on if it's just a fantasy with no hope of coming true.

Woke up thinking no clarification talk, just back off again day to day and see where we go. 

On the way home Sat night, she mentioned a live music bar she noticed and looking into it online. Going to take that as a hint and look into that for asking her for another date. Preferably it will have music you can dance to..


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

woundedwarrior said:


> You might want to just point blank ask her if she is done being your "wife" forever


One thing I have been busy working out is that my wife says one thing and means quite another. She has done nothing but push me away for 6 months (D-bomb less than a month ago) but in fact I think that all that time she wanted me to come and get her, to fight for her. Even when she said she didn't want me to fight for her, I think she still did. She was just angry as hell that I wasn't reacting the way she wanted me to. 

She's just a very small hearted person who doesn't know how to say "come and pay attention to me and love me". Instead she tried to get a reaction from me by pushing me away. Bad move. Not sure what I do next.

Anyway, back to you...what she says and what she wants and what she thinks she wants could be three very different things.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Anyway, back to you...what she says and what she wants and what she thinks she wants could be three very different things.


Yep


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Wow.. this post got wordy.. lots of thoughts to process so laying em out, a fair amount is rehashing things I have posted before but here is where things atm;

.....................................................................................

I think it is as simple as she doesn't know what she wants. I have been thinking and what i want hasn't changed. I said I wouldn't let a lack of progress this weekend dishearten me so i won't. There was "comfortable with each other" progress but of course that isn't husband and wife progress.

I am starting to form a time-frame of when *I* should let go, not decided on date yet but I have ideas how long is reasonable for my sanity to live in limbo. The time to let go is not now but I do need to start laying specifics down in my mind. If we hit that date and she still "doesnt know" if she wants to try then *I* will have to make the decision regardless of *wanting to or not*.

The simple fact she changed from "never" to maybe, I think means she can see at least trying to fix things is the "right" thing to do, but is it the right thing for her? It is the right thing for me, it is the right thing for our family and the right thing by the vows which I know she took seriously, but is it the right thing for her individually? I say yes but then I am of course just a little biased.

There are many things for her to think about so I have to give her a fair amount of time for that She could be doing any number of;


Trying to decide if my changes are genuine and long term. If I slip back she is just opening herself for more hurt. I am totally set on keeping my progress up with or without her. They have to be permanent for me and my boys sake regardless of her. I don't know what it would take for her to believe that. Which leads to;
Trying to decide if she can trust me. She seems to accept there was never an affair on my part now but regaining that trust is something else. Can she take me back without worring what I may be up to. On this I have offered 100% transparency and access to all computers/phones etc. That said I am pretty tech savvy so maybe she things I could work around that? Maybe down the line a key-logger for her to be able to monitor me might help her there? I have nothing to hide whatsoever so it's no bother to me if it helps the trust issue.
Additionally on trust, probably more so than the last point, as it predates the whole affair thing, does she trust me to put her and the kids first. I failed to do this previously, some minor but definitely some major things that I am far far from proud of. Looking back at "the person" making these mistakes, I think he was an ass. I am not talking about being mr nice guy instead but in very important areas of life I let my family down. Can she trust this new me to not go back to that. I like to think yes, I was a good provider and reliable before depression, I can do it again. Coming out of depression really has been like having the bag lifted from over my eyes and I see very differently now. Not to say I don't have to keep working at it as I intend to.
Being so hurt already and then thinking I was cheating made her put up walls and start mentally preparing for life after me. I am certain (yes actually sure not just her word for it) there was no affair from her side but part of life after me included thinking about other possibilities. She woke up to the possibility of being free to be with whoever she wants. I wonder if this is appealing to her still. 
Even before the bad times when our relationship was good, I failed at special occasions and romance. The Vday just gone was an attempt to show understanding of what these times mean to her. If she will try again, that was not a one off, i intend to keep this in mind going forward
Wondering if i am just after sex. I am not but I was very full on about sex before. 100%, as much as I am still attracted to her, I think about sex very little now. Not like not at all but I can see sex and love as two connected but separate things where before I needed sex to feel loved, I've mentioned this before but it is a big change for me, in the past I was very very high sex drive, to the point it may have been an obsession/addiction even (one for counselling). I constantly thought about it and would happily have engaged several times a day. I tried to instigate sex too often and without thought, and there are genuine serious reasons that I should not have been doing this beyond LD vs HD.

There may well be more but until she will work with me, I am working alone. I am fine with that. I have come to terms with the fact I may be without her and seeing as I don't want anyone else at this point that would mean being alone at least for a while. Again something I am fine with. i need to finish finding myself and becoming comfortable with who I am anyway. If she said yes, lets see if we can work through this, I would not try to move straight back in for example, even into the spare room that I sleep when I stop over.

I believe to make a strong marriage going forward we would have to go slowly and work from the foundation up, it's just that commitment to doing that from her I want now. The road to reconciliation preocess could take as long as needed, I just want her to confirm we are on that road, as opposed to standing at the start deciding whether to take it or not.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> There may well be more but until she will work with me, I am working alone. I am fine with that. I have come to terms with the fact I may be without her and seeing as I don't want anyone else at this point that would mean being alone at least for a while. Again something I am fine with. i need to finish finding myself and becoming comfortable with who I am anyway. If she said yes, lets see if we can work through this, I would not try to move straight back in for example, even into the spare room that I sleep when I stop over.
> 
> I believe to make a strong marriage going forward we would have to go slowly and work from the foundation up, it's just that commitment to doing that from her I want now. The road to reconciliation preocess could take as long as needed, I just want her to confirm we are on that road, as opposed to standing at the start deciding whether to take it or not.


Exactly where I am - except if I am perfectly honest I don't think I have 100% come to terms with the idea of life without her - but I am getting closer every day (and doing a damn fine job of faking it in front of her!).

I know that on one level she would like to fix things, and I strongly believe that they are fixable - if only because I have changed and I can understand her perspective so much more clearly now. On another level she is thinking "I have been hurt so much by all this that I just want it to end"


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Well if i am honest that was a hell of a long post for someone that has come to terms with the idea.. Maybe i'm not fully come to terms? Maybe all I have done is accepted it is a very real possibity that I have pretty limited say in it.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> Well if i am honest that was a hell of a long post for someone that has come to terms with the idea.. Maybe i'm not fully come to terms? Maybe all I have done is accepted it is a very real possibity that I have pretty limited say in it.


I'm not quite sure how you know when you have come to terms with it. 

I'm having some health issues at the moment and I have come to terms with certain limitations I may face in the future - but that doesn't mean that I don't care about them or don't wish that things could be different. So I don't think that "just don't care any more" is the right test for whether or not you have come to terms with something. I think it's more like acceptance, an absence of panic or waves of emotion when you think about it and just being able to contemplate that potential future calmly and as if it is as real as any other potential future you might think about.

Sounds like you're pretty much there.

And of course, accepting that something might turn out to be the case doesn't stop you from fighting for a better future. I accept my health condition, but if there were avenues open to me that could give me a better future I would sure as hell be pursuing them.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I am still anxious about the future bit compared to the falling apart panic I was feeling.. I think I am much closer to acceptance than the start point, just not there yet.

I really think MC in a neutral setting could do us wonders combined with my own efforts but I feel now still isnt the time for that subject to come up.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

When you separate, the time to let go is the present. You cannot work on your marriage alone. Work on yourself.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

K.C. said:


> I am still anxious about the future bit compared to the falling apart panic I was feeling.. I think I am much closer to acceptance than the start point, just not there yet.
> 
> I really think MC in a neutral setting could do us wonders combined with my own efforts but I feel now still isnt the time for that subject to come up.


Are you frightened?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Yes.

Not of it being over. It already is.

Not even of being alone, that is a needed part of my healing.

What scares me is mishandling a shot at reconciliation. Either by pushing her away by pushing for R or by not spotting overtures towards it from her. Scared that the second guessing everything will make that fear a self fulfilling prophecy.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

K.C. said:


> Yes.
> 
> Not of it being over. It already is.
> 
> ...


When someone wants to be with you, you can't miss it.

"Looking" for signs of it appears weak, needy, and clingy.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I am slowly getting there with being less overtly needy. The inside is lagging behind though and i guess that it probay shows through.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

K.C. said:


> I am slowly getting there with being less overtly needy. The inside is lagging behind though and i guess that it probay shows through.


Check out "Reinventing Katy"

Read it for content and check the mirror.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Thanks. Will do.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> What scares me is mishandling a shot at reconciliation. Either by pushing her away by pushing for R or by not spotting overtures towards it from her. Scared that the second guessing everything will make that fear a self fulfilling prophecy.


Exactly how I feel
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Then I challenge you.. First to cave gets the beers in.

I have to just stop now. I made my gestures. They were accepted but not reciprocated. We had a good time but that is that.

She knows where I stand and what I want, I got to stop spinning. 

I got off the rollercoaster just to get on the merry go round.

Just stop FFS.

Bring on the 2x4's.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

K.C. said:


> Bring on the 2x4's.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

You may need a bigger pile but thats a good start!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

K.C. said:


> You may need a bigger pile but thats a good start!


You can see from the brand, it's left over from Synthetic.

He was a particularly tough case.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

KC

Like I said, patience. I know it is hard, believe me. 

Conrad is right. 

Stay strong, mate.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Part of my issue is that i resist the advice as Mrs.C doesn't fit the WS or WAW tags. I like fooling myself that makes a difference to the fact I need to sort my own stuff out as a priority. The basic premise of whether she likes what she sees when she looks at me remains. The advice stands regardless of why she ditched my sorry ass, fact remains she did.

If I am honest I have allowed the last couple weeks to become about showing her this new me again etcetcetc. I don't regret it though. I feel I had to make an effort and gesture for Vday for the reasons posted before but that's done now.

Less time there unless invited or for the kids. Got to get my ass up to speed with Uni, getting into shape and socialising. I want to do these things but then I want to hover showing off my progress so far instead of making more progress.

I posted last week I had stalled. Damn maybe I had actually regressed.

Tell you what though, I can do this and I will do it.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

One step forward, two steps back. 

Don't you wish sometimes you almost didn't care? That you had lost all feeling for W and now she was somebody you only used to love? Out at the boozer every night, not a care in the world....


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I do wish letting go was easier. I almost wish I had found evidence of cheating instead of what I did when I looked.

Then I could have put my head back up my ass and blindly carried on and had a nice easy 'out' in blaming her cheating. Could have fooled me I was moving o and doing better but, I would have just been dooming myself to another ride of the roller-coaster with someone else at some point.

Instead I got nothing to get angry with her about, just more angry with what I was becoming. 

I know it probably sounds like too much of my focus is still on her, and I guess in some ways that is true. I am starting to see many co-dependant traits in myself but not in the regular sense. Maybe it should be a different label or maybe its just a different manifestation. I never tended to instantly cave to her if we disagreed. She didn't ask for the changes I made, I was so desperate to be the "stereotypical" good parent and a good husband that I forgot about being a good me. I guess this is from having such poor biological parents and a monster of a step father. My family became my entire life.

But the need to change who and what I am, I am doing that for me as a man now. For the first time in a long tie i am asking do "I" like what I see in the mirror instead of do my family like what they see. I was so deluded about what I was doing, i wasn't even getting the good husband and father bit right as I was unknowingly carrying this resentment around with me which made me difficult to live with, let alone love.

I am starting to like who I see in the mirror now, but he is far away from being all he can be. Sucker has a lot of work to do yet.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

KC

I think youre doing your best to make sense of it all. Unlike a lot of people on this forum, you are taking a lot of responsibility for what's happened and are really serious about trying to make changes for the better. 

But my advice to you is don't be quite so hard on yourself. Stop beating yourself up. Sure, you made mistakes, who the hell hasn't? All you can hope for is to keep doing your best. That's all life can expect from you.


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

I like your attitude but you are blaming yourself for so much. Stop. It's in the past. Become who you want to be. Might be worth looking up a codependency book or checking online just in case you do have these traits. I think that's something I need to do.(I can hear you saying, ya think??? LOL) anyway do be kind to yourself. You need to get off the treadmill of blame, it doesn't help and it takes away the focus on the present and what you can do now to be happy. Think you could do with chillaxing a bit and not over think so much .


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Thats were Jekyll and Hyde helps. I take the blame as it is right to do. I have no doubt if Mrs.C was here instead and I wasnt doing what I am you all would tell her to cut her losses. That wasnt me though. Not the real me at least. Thats how I separate responsibility for what I have done from beating myself.

I am ok with who I am when I look inside. Accepting resposibility for past actions, depressed or not is part of that.

I do need to get the balance right between looking back and forwards though.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Ugh massive headache. Information overload from cramming 3 weeks of Linear Algebra into half an hour. Catching up may kill me. But at least i'll be too busy to dwell on the past!


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Uni finished thankfully.

Now how to take my mind of being horny and wanting to get laid when it simply isn't an option heh.

Been a while since I randomly got like that for no discernable reason.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Signs of life stirring! 

And remember, KC, any day they're not throwing dirt on your face is a good day.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Hah. Other than the headache had a good day today.

Going to try and stretch to the cost of uni gym/pool when I get paid on thursday. £60 ish for 3 months. Not sure can afford it yet but they dont do monthly.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

if you can, you're a good investment


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Result!

Mum just called and mentioned the gym thing as she knows I have working out. She thought had already joined and so is buying the first quarter for me as an early birthday present. I wasnt even fishing either!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

K.C. said:


> Result!
> 
> Mum just called and mentioned the gym thing as she knows I have working out. She thought had already joined and so is buying the first quarter for me as an early birthday present. I wasnt even fishing either!


When you love yourself, the world follows suit.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Dont know wtf is wrong with me today. Not been able to drag myself out of bed for uni. Had a long day yesterday and I am so tired. 

Have work later but thinking I may just sleep till then.

Feel like a loser for not motivating myself but I am dog tired. At least I hope its just that and not my dark cloud coming to say hi.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Get your ass up. 

Don't give in to the clouds. 

Strong coffee and AC/DC's You ashook Me All Night Long.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> At least I hope its just that and not my dark cloud coming to say hi.


Even if it is then simply recognising an episode of depression for what it is is half the battle.

In my experience (as someone who has suffered from low-level depression pretty much all his adult life) the secret then is to take some action. It doesn't really matter what it is. Go for a walk, or better still a run, Write a letter or a song. Do your filing or some housework. It is inaction that depression feeds off - inaction on one hand and that empty "what's the point" feeling on the other that keep each other going. Break the cycle.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Right so 4 hours later than planned.. I am up.

10x Pushup, 10x situp, 10x Squats. 2 sets of this for now and will do some more later. It's not the full routine I am supposed to be doing but I need to ease myself back in.

Now shower, make myself handsome (hah) and get off to work.

I think it was just tiredness catching up but I will be watching my thoughts closely today for sure as I am still not feeling very motivated to get my act together today.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> Right so 4 hours later than planned.. I am up.
> 
> 10x Pushup, 10x situp, 10x Squats. 2 sets of this for now and will do some more later. It's not the full routine I am supposed to be doing but I need to ease myself back in.
> 
> ...


WELL DONE!!

Now the other thing is to have compassion for yourself. And have compassion for the depression. Don't beat it up (it will only come on stronger) and don't beat yourself up.


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

Nice start to the day, I need to build in a routine like yours. Hope you have a great day!


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

*Re: Re: I've moved out but not moved on. (Handing out free 2x2's)*



Chopsy said:


> Nice start to the day, I need to build in a routine like yours. Hope you have a great day!


Check out the workout thread in social. Lots of knowledge and support in there.


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## Thewife (Sep 3, 2007)

Just managed to read through your thread 

Guess what "you are doing really good". 

You are definitely a good husband and father, so don't doubt that. No one is perfect and everyone has screwed up in life one way or other whats important is the courage to acknowledge and admit it and work on making amends.......and you are doing exactly that. Don't worry about the end result, give it all you have and take what comes......there will be no regrets. 

The word "May be" and " not to expect anything now" from Mrs C seems positive to me because I am in her shoes somewhat. Give it time but don't ever let her feel you have given up even by mistake. 

I'll be rooting for you KC, in doing all these don't forget to take care of yourself.......have fun and be fun and everything will fall in place just the way it should.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Well, after a VERY slow start to the day.. 

I am almost ready for bed again! :sleeping:

Other than the Uni thing, today was a good day. Got loads done in work even with my TAM addiction, feeling pretty good about things too. So while I will keep an eye on Mr Hyde in case he tries to slip out his cage again, I think this morning was tiredness plain and simple. OK I should still have hauled ass but I don't feel like it was a precursor to a big down now so that's good. :smthumbup:

Work 'night out' on Sunday. Last year was a wash-out, everyone left straight after the meal but I'm hoping to get a few of them to stay out at least a couple of hours this time. The Supervisor I was training that Mrs.C thought I was having an affair with isn't going at all as she is away so hopefully there wont be any "trust" repercussions... Actually maybe not as how will Mrs.C know who is or isn't there.. me saying anything one way or the other would just be misconstrued? It's not like she can come along though i would be happy for her to if it was. Damn, now i am second guessing whether I should go at all. I think I should but... I do so much second guessing these days heh. :scratchhead:

You know it's funny, the girl Mrs.C thinks i was going off with, in the year and a bit I have known her, has got engaged to her long term boyfriend, bought a house with him and is now pregnant too. She is living her dream. Just about the last person that would have been available even if I had wanted to cheat. :scratchhead:

As if my Mr Hyde behaviour wasnt bad enough back then, she was imagining all that too. I'd laugh if it want so, well totally not funny to live it. 

Not been dwelling on me/her/us much at all today but i am spoiling it now by wanting to phone home, wake her up and sing "I wanna hold your Hand" down the phone to her. I "suspect" her reaction would most certainly not be what I want. :rofl:


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Sounds like what started as a rough morning turned into a decent day. 

Send pictures from the Sunday work party.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C.

Have you ever read any Michael Neill? He's got a few books out on the theme of how to be happy (including one called "Feel Happy Now!". 

One of his maxims is "have an average day". If you just aim to have an OK day rather than an amazing one and to get an average amount of stuff done rather than be superman today, then over time you will go an awfully long way towards your goals with minimal stress. If you aim to be exceptional every day you will end up beating yourself up most days and may well achieve less.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

K.C. said:


> Not been dwelling on me/her/us much at all today but i am spoiling it now by wanting to phone home, *wake her up and sing "I wanna hold your Hand" down the phone to her. I "suspect" her reaction would most certainly not be what I want.* :rofl:


:rofl:

I would have liked to have heard this!!


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I suspect it would have involved lots of swearing and go to hells coming the other way! 

It is so weird to know we are not back together but that is a real possibility down the line. Very strange feeling to be in this "inbetween".

On the basis that if you take a girl out and like her, you would then offer a second date... having left it a good few days...

This morning we had a quick chat. Nothing heavy. I said I really enjoyed the night out and would like to do it again whenever we are both free. She said she does not know when that would be possible (Uni-work-kids etc) but yes! ::smthumbup:

Don't worry though, i am not getting carried away.

I also said, on the basis our communication in the past had got rather poor, could she clarify what she means by "don't expect anything yet". Part of the reason I wanted to do this, is due to my past unreasonable sexual advances. I would "try" for sex at totally inappropriate times (I don't mean "ooh adventurous" inappropriate but real, dude WTF are you trying it on now for you d!ck inappropriate) far too often. I wanted to make sure she didn't think I was trying to get her into bed just because we had a good night. I had no intention of even trying for more than the brief hand holding. I told her I was not expecting anything, certainly not that she would 'jump into my arms' just that I had wanted to express I had enjoyed the night out.

So I feel a bit of clarity. She says she is fine with us working towards getting back together. Not that we will get back together but we can work towards it and see where we end up. She clarified that right now she doesn't feel we are in a relationship or that she is ready for that. I accepted that and clarified where I think we are. Funnily that is exactly the same as where she see's us. We have just approached that spot from different directions.

I know I am more enthusiastic about reconciliation down the line than she is atm so I need to watch my step and my pace. I say we will go at her pace BUT that isn't the same as actually doing that. Her walls are understandably high, I consider her being willing to chat about the possibility from the top of the wall rather than pouring burning pitch a big positive. 

That is only natural too seeing as we are approaching it from opposite directions; me from never wanted to break up in the first place and her from having been convinced not only was I being an ass for a long time; totally guilty as charged! But an unfaithful ass too; no way no how, not copping a plea for that one. It really isnt so long ago she was taking the stance of we would never ever get back together. (damn you Taylor Swift I so want to slap you whenever I hear that sh!t - why is it stuck in my head!). It feels like forever since that stance softened to me, but really it's only weeks.

So that is done with for a while. Family stuff only for a bit but I will try to find an idea and suitable time for a 'second' date at some point. Won't be any time real soon though.

So yeah, i am quite pleased with that. I still need to make sure she doesn't feel rushed or pressured so will give her more space than the last couple of weeks (me and kids being ill so I was there a lot then and Vday / weekend)

I know it's pretty far from the 180 and could be seen by her as me being needy but I think a small dose of that is needed in my situation. Not to use that as an excuse though. It is back to focusing on myself.

As a reminder to myself..

My marriage IS over. I won't forget that. 
There is no US now, I wont forget that either.

There is K.C. though and he needs to keep looking and moving forward. I will continue discovering more about myself as an individual and figuring out my headmess.

I don't have a set destination yet, I'd like it to involve her but that is not in my control. Wherever the road leads I'm sure will be a good place for me though. I am not willing to accept any less.


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## Thewife (Sep 3, 2007)

Yes, it should always be "me" first then our family, if we can't take care of ourselves then we can't take care of our family.......I have learnt it the hard way. 

Baby steps, baby steps...slow and steady wins the race.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> I know I am more enthusiastic about reconciliation down the line than she is atm so I need to watch my step and my pace.


Just remember all the lessons from the 180 and the MMSG, etc. Needy really isn't attractive. Needy sends them running in the opposite direction. She may be your preferred choice of partner but she is not your only choice of potential partner. "Preferred" means that you may jump through a couple of extra hoops for her rather than the next woman, but nothing more than that. You won't die in a ditch for her. You won't wait for her forever. You will continue to rebuild your life. At the moment there is a space in that new life that she might be able to fill, but it is not going to be open forever.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

That is true. I had that awakening to 'there being other amazing women out there" a little while ago and it was weird after a decade with no thoughts of other women in that way.

Right now she is my only choice in partner. But that is by my choice. I choose to remain faithful to my vows until we reconcile or I decide it will never happen and stop waiting for it. I will always love her but I won't grow old and die alone for that love. That's why I said;



> I don't have a set destination yet, I'd like it to involve her but that is not in my control. Wherever the road leads I'm sure will be a good place for me though.


Once I finish working myself out, I'll start working the rest out.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Oh and I have decided i will be billy no mates tonight and go the pub on my own. Hoping somewhere has the Liverpool match on but I think will go out even if they don't.

Going to look at meetup.com again, last time i looked nothing appealed but I have cheered a fair bit up since then so even if nothing new, one that didn't appeal may be of interest after all.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Stella Moon said:


> :rofl:
> 
> I would have liked to have heard this!!


Oh and alost forgot;

For anyone actually fool enough to want to hear me sing. Walk by the Foo Fighter "sang" (I use the term lightly here) by yours truly is in that "sing for your supper" thread in social from a little while ago! 

I missed my vocation for sure!


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

You see very self aware and have so much insight into your situation. I'm glad you've had a few positive words from Mrs C. Remember when she fell in love with you, what kind of person were you then? I think you approaching this spot on.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Thanks Chopsy. It's about the only way in which trying to analyse everything I see is useful in this situation. The second guessing being the major donwside I think. I am constantly watching what I do, why I did it and how i respond to things. I don't have it mastered but i feel pretty good about that now. I am getting better at stopping and seeing, sometimes with a little help from my TAM friends, the why behind my actions.

I am trying to balance what I feel is needed based on my specific situation (the emotional neglect etc) with the very good 180 style advice from for example Conrad.

I feel like both sides are needed. If I full on 180'd I would still be unavailable and nothing changing in that sense. While I want to save my marriage, for me personally I don't think it is the route. If there had been infidelity or abuse sure but while she is not an angel or on her pedestal any more she was a pretty damn good wife in the main. She isn't the one needing the wake up.. that was me and she did that brilliantly. 

That said, the 180, man-up and the like are brilliant for seeing where I need to stand strong and step up to be attractive as a man. How I need to step out of my comfort zoe and not be so 100% family focused. I need to find time to be me without neglecting my responsibility as a father. Before I neglected being me because I thought that was being a good husband and father... To make my kids happy (and maybe later her sure) I need to be happy with me. If I cannot be happy with my life or with who I see looking back in the mirror why the hell would anyone else?! 

If I had carried on as I started the break up, we would be over for ever by now, I have no doubt about that. I would have begged and pleaded my way to oblivion weeks and weeks ago without TAM. i would have pushed her away in my desperation without doubt.

Likewise, detaching and self healing, with full 180 I would probably be further along by now. I know Mrs.C well enough to know how she would respond to that with my history of not showing I cared in her love language. She would write it off as a good job she got out when she did and validation of her choice.

Only time will tell if it is too little too late or if I should have just gone as full 180 as the kid/future emigration plans allowed. But I am happy with the balance I trying to achieve. I still need to work on not pushing and allowing distance in between the together things though.

I have done plenty of my natural instinct to appeal to her and show I care stuff the last week so it is definitely time to step back, let her digest that in her own time and focus purely on me and the boys for a bit I think.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

So i have gone out for the Liverpool game. That didn't work out so well
Stupid way goal rule. Pub closed but little club across the way open. OMG so many kids. Feeling old lol though a couple seem half interested hah. As if kiddos lol what are you 17?

I still just want Mrs.C though the ego boost is nice I admit.

Glad I came out though.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Hey, KC, an ego boost is always good. You're really sounding more upbeat in general.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Yeah feelin good. Shame am not intersted in random tail.

Does help me feel better that life wlll go on regardless of Mrs.C. If need be.

She has a Uni reunion tonight so I admit this is me taking my mind off that so I dont have to worry what she may be up to. Probably nothing but you guys know what I mean.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

A little hung over this morning but I'm glad I went out. Didnt do anything to regret. It was nice to just relax.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Trying not to stress about her being out last night. Worried she is going to meet someone before we do some real work on us.

Never ever been bothered like that before.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> Trying not to stress about her being out last night. Worried she is going to meet someone before we do some real work on us..


Relax. If you're right together then meeting some other guy she doesn't quite fit with is just going to remind her how right you are for her.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I know.

Sometimes the scared little boy comes out though.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> Sometimes the scared little boy comes out though.


Tell me about it 

I'm just moving out of the angry little boy stage!


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## NoWhere (Oct 2, 2012)

K.C. said:


> Trying not to stress about her being out last night. Worried she is going to meet someone before we do some real work on us.


 Well if that happens then it wasn't meant to be. Tell that scared little boy there are better things out there if that happens and try not to worry yourself about it. It will do you no good. 

I know. I won the gold in worrying a few years back and got a bronze last year. :smthumbup:


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Ha. Very true. It's one just one more thing beyond my control.

I think it is a natural concern to have but I can't let it weigh too heavily as no good can come of it.

/Reads the Serenity prayer for the millionth time...


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

If she does at least you won't be in limbo anymore. 

You can see good in anything if you have the right perspective.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Damn you Z.

There is that but its not much of a silver lining heh.

Chilled again now. Mornings suck some days. Maybe I need to change the time I take my meds.

Cant wait to see kids. They been at their nanas this week for us going the show last weekend and school holidays with us both working etc. Childcare would have been mental.

Miss em so much when they away. Just spoke to them on phone. They didnt miss us it seems. All 3 wanted to stay there few more days. Little sods!


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Staying at family home tonight so can spend as much time as possible with the kids before work tomorrow.

Got here and everyone is asleep as expected but my spidey sense is going off big time. The family photos that had remained on show and one of me and Mrs.C have all been taken down.

I could be reading to much into that as she seems to have been having a sort out in general and the roses from the show last week are still there, but there is not a picture with me in it out anywhere now.

I have a bad feeling about tomorrow.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Yes, KC, I understand. I been down the photo road.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

K.C. said:


> Staying at family home tonight so can spend as much time as possible with the kids before work tomorrow.
> 
> Got here and everyone is asleep as expected but my spidey sense is going off big time. The family photos that had remained on show and one of me and Mrs.C have all been taken down.
> 
> ...


I went through the house and removed photos with X in them, while she still lived here. I left one that was in D7s room up and put a couple more of D7 and mom in kiddos room. 

I did it for a reason. Don't ignore your spidey sense. 

But don't freak out. Prepare yourself emotionally. You knew something like this might happen at some point. Remain calm. This isn't the end of the world. 

I still cannot deny that my X still has some small chance down the road. That chance was much larger when I removed photos. But the photos were no accident. You know that.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Make note. Prepare. Don't mention it. Stay cool and dispassionate. She said she felt you are not in a relationship currently. She may be showing you she means it. 

Show her that you are ok with it, as you said.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Yeah I said I wont push and I intend to hold myself to that. 

She may have moved back to a no never stance or as you say it may be a message about where we stand. It could just be that she has been meaning to but not got round to it as she has been mad busy. There bas to be a reason for why now.

If she has made a decision sure she will tell without me fishing. I wont push but I will be watching her body language if nothing is said.

While concerned of course.. I was already prepared for the possibility and am not freaking out. Yet at least.


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## Thewife (Sep 3, 2007)

Good, don't freak out. You are giving it all and now all you can do is see where it goes, if it works out then great, if not...then I am sure there will be something greater, its the gap in between you need to prepare yourself for. Everything happens for a reason, you will definitely know the reasons one day. Meanwhile do what makes you happy.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Am up and pretty calm for a decent sleep. Still have the feeling I wont like today or whenever she says what she has to say if she does have something to.

I really want to just ask about the pics but I will resist. Please install nails into to 2x4's if I dont stick to that.

Thankfully have the boys to focus on until work which should help a lot. Missed em so much. Hearing I love you Daddy from the youngest is the best.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Dude, your passivity (if indeed that is a word) in all this worries me. You're just hanging around waiting for her to make her move, trying to second guess her body language, stressing over things that may or may not happen

This is not good for YOU. Who is looking out for what you need? She's calling all the shots and has no timescale, it all seems a bit open ended? As if she can just make a decision on a whim whenever she feels like it. No wonder she's not in any kind of hurry!

Have you got any idea how long you're willing to put up being in limbo?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I dont know tbh. I wouldnt say I'm passive so much as stepping back while she sorts out what she wants. Right now I am sure she doesnt really know.

There is a lot of trust to be rebuilt. If she comes round, I can't expect it to be fast when the process that got us here was so long.

My big thing right now is to not be plan B. She can have the time she needs but if she does start looking elswhere that will be her decision made.

I am trying to come up with a timeframe but it has to be one I can live with enforcing or I am just fooling myself and will feel like an idiot for not sticking to it.

The problem I have compared to a lot of threads is that I am, or rather was, the villian of my story. I am working hard on that but ot means the waiting is different for me I think. Even if she does like what she is now seeing, she has to believe it is a genuine long term change not just me putting on a show to win her back.

Patience is needed but if her decision isnt yhe one I want, I am preparing for that as best I can.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

You're not into dating others right now, and mentally you are still waiting for her to come around. I don't know if I'd call that you being her Plan B, given that you say you were the "villain". Still, it may help if she senses she could lose you.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I am just focussng on actually doing the things I say I will for me. Like going the pub on my own the other day, going on the work night out tomorrow even thoigh first instinct is to spend time with the kids instead. Lile the uni gym.

I am waiting for her yes but I'm not sat on my ass doing nothing in the meantime. I certainly am not looking for a relationship elsewhere. I woildnt be even of she is final with it. I wouldnt be ready to and I am not going to do it to be playing games.

We find our way back together as ourselves or not at all.


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## Thewife (Sep 3, 2007)

You are not that bad a villain as there is no infidelity in my view but you are right that she surely will want to wait and see if this change is for good or not, I hope she gives you a positive answer soon.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Me too. It doesnt have to be full on back together just a commitment to try. 

We'll see. What I did that is only alluded too wasnt cheating or abuse but was enough to break trust all the same.


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## Thewife (Sep 3, 2007)

Rebuilding trust is definitely a hard work for both parties involved, time and patience is vital.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Yeah.

I know there is still love there bit ss te song says, sometimes it just aint enough.

Without trust it isnt enough. I trust myself as being genuine here. Convincing her without pushing her away is the hard bit.

Think I was over reacting to the pics. She is mid way through sort out and the family one is back out. No marriage/ us ones yet but the family one being out had helped me stick to calmly waiting.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Store transfer sorted. Asked for one on the basis Mrs.C thought I was having an affair with a colleague here. 

I think she ready believes there was no affair but if she doubts this was about the only thing I could do about it.

Just one week left here then I transfer. Its not to the area I asked aboit and the manager where I am goimg is known as a cow to work for but I don't care. Accepted it.

Dont know if it will affect my wifes thinking at all but I think its best to be out of here in case it does.

Hmm today has been very "her" based in this thread but I am behaving. Honest.

Had great time with kids swimming before work. As much as they drive me mad, I miss them like crazy when they are gone at all.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I'd love Mrs.C to post her version of events but I dont see it ever happening.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

KC

I've been thinking the same thing lately, would love to read my WS 's version of events. I mean, of course I could tell you some of it but......

What has astonished me over the last two years or so is how differently two intelligent people can view the same issue.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

So random stray thought.

Get into "our" bed next to her. Cuddle up to her and go to sleep with her in my arms.

What could possibly go wrong.

Man I miss just holding her right now. Sleeping alone in a simgle bed really sucks. Some nights even more than others.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

At least you have a bed.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I have two actually woohoo.
Go me!


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

I understand about the single bed. I could try to articulate it but it would be hopelessly inadequate.

KC, you're like the rest of us, it's this LIMBO shyt that sucks the most.


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## SpunkySpunky (Dec 17, 2012)

I have a full sized bed. 

At the beginning of our separation, I used still slept on "my side", even though I was in a bed at my parents house. I would look over on "his side" and see nothing but emptiness. I'd even miss his snoring which would keep me up. I even put a body pillow next to me because I missed cuddling so much.

You could say I was sort of in a limbo (was a false one, but I didn't know that). 

He has "our" bed now.


And I starfish in MY bed nowadays. 




But I remember being where you were K. I hated having those stray thoughts. I am embarrassed to say I still have them at times. Just keep on keepin' on. It will get better.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Thanks Spunky.

It is already. Although the feelings and thoughts remain, they are far less debilitating and easier to move aside so I can get on with day to dah.

I post a lot here that maybe seems I am not going forward but giving it that release here is part of how I deal better now I think.

Glad I didnt go off about the pics though the wedding and us pics being down sucks I think it was the family ones of all 5 of us that had hurt and thats back out now.

Was very tempted to skip the work night out which is tonight as seen so little of the boys this week but that was the old me. Always ditching plans or not even making them in order to be a "good husband and dad" and being miserable about not having a life etcetc. So am going anyway and will just have as much time as possible in the week to make up.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Good for you KC. Go enjoy yourself in ways you held back before.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

You haven't been flirting with me on my thread as of late...miss you...I even posted a pic of me in 80's garb...lmao! thought you'd get a kick out of it..*ahem (attention hint)... 

Yes...you go out tonight and have a good time...smile...relax and don't dwell on anything regarding 'her'. You are such a good guy KC...if you were closer I'd come crash that party...just to see the look on your face! lmao! ha!!! (I'm so laughing right now)...


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Wow I may be blushing in the middle of the pub now..

Main reason Stella is I feel like i've stalled big time where you have been doing amazingly. Dont worry though, I still think your hot.  .

I am a great guy. Its weird. So many peope have said I seem like a different person now... They havent known me known me long.. I just feel like me again at last.

It's nice.

So is the pub.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Woop. Good night even though only a few stayed out. Am munching pizza in taxi on way home. Yumm.

Only thing missing is Mrs.C to cuddle up to now.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

K.C. said:


> Wow I may be blushing in the middle of the pub now..
> 
> Main reason Stella is I feel like i've stalled big time where you have been doing amazingly. Dont worry though, I still think your hot.  .
> 
> ...


nuh uh...I just posted about crying and getting triggerd...I have sad days...sad moments...not so 'amazing'... sometimes I even think I regress...emotionally...

I wish so often I could be a fly on the wall in 'his' house at my ex inlaws...wondering if there's been any ill effect on 'him'... 

sounds stupid huh? yea.. I know...


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

You have had it way harder than I have Stella and have made solid progress. I admire your toughness and resolve. I am still in waiting mode though. Lots and lots of "me" progress but none at all on "us". I still think the same way about us and the future when I let myself. I have to actively think about other things instead to stop myself spinning on the spot.

Had a really fun night out. Not many stayed out long but had a laugh with the few who did. Was nice to see people genuinely disappointed when I had to leave and trying to get me to stay longer.

Old K.C. apparently was liked but people felt like they were on eggshells for the first half hour of my shifts untill my "work" face went on properly. For that first bit no one knew what sort of mood I would be in and whether they should just leave me alone.

They see a huge change in me the last 6 weeks where I am joking around or randomly singing and just generally much happier.

I am not even faking it. I am so much happier in myself. Part credit to the meds I have no doubt and if I have to take them forever I will. But I give myself a huge pat on the back too as I have made a real deliberate change to my mindset that has been the key. I believe the meds, CBT and self help books have enabled that change in attitude but it is the effort I have put in that has actually made the change.

I am aware though of this limbo and that I am very much living in hope. The real test will be moving on when/if waiting mode is no longer an option.

If we attempt R, i will have more hard work to do right there. Remaining new positive K.C. and avoiding my codependent old K.C. while desperate to make her happy and succeed in R.

If chance of R is taken off the table I will have a renewed fight to remain positive on my hands.

Either way, I feel all I have done so far is the easy bit and the hardest is yet to come. With how tough the easy bit has been, that is quite a sobering thought.

It is a challenge I AM up to though.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Oh and feeling awesome singing along to I beieve I can fly while doing the dishes.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I want what I cant have.

Is that why I still want it.

I don't think so.

I think its because the original scared boy faking it K.C. wanted it.
The depressed K.C. wanted it
The new man K.C. wants it.

Patience is a virtue but when does it become foolish to wait?

I have been trying to answer that and failing. Right now it still feels like I'd wait forever though I know that is far from realistic.

Still feeling good but how do you answer an impossible question.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

K.C. said:


> Patience is a virtue but when does it become foolish to wait?


When she starts interviewing posOM.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I guess but it's not like I could know she was or wasn't doing that unless she told me.

Maybe paranoia from so much TAM reading but aargh plan B etcetc.

Screw it. I need to stop thinking. 

There is nothing in this world that cant be made worse by thinking about it.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

K.C. said:


> I guess but it's not like I could know she was or wasn't doing that unless she told me.
> 
> Maybe paranoia from so much TAM reading but aargh plan B etcetc.
> 
> ...


Keep working on your sex rank and your attractiveness.


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

Over thinking can make you crazy, I really try not to think in 5 minute stretches, especially of anxious/ stressed. I think thinking (ironic I know!) is like a debilitating disease that eats away at your happiness in the present moment. Five minutes of present, no thinking- try it. 

As for when to give up, if ever that comes, I think you'll know. I don't think s probably too helpful to 'think' about that now. Try some deep breathing and stay in the present!


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Yes! I do a lot of moving my thoughts to the present.

Its just frustrating. Everyone can see the change in me. She hasnt even acknpwledged it other than by us talking more than in ages.

I know I shouldnt be waiting on scraps from her but until I give up I dont know how not to. I have got better at not vocalising and acting upon it but inside is the same as ever.

Busy day today should help keep my mind where it needs to be.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

K.C. said:


> Its just frustrating. Everyone can see the change in me. She hasnt even acknpwledged it other than by us talking more than in ages.


If everyone else sees it, you can bet your @ss she does too. She knows you better than any of them. 

Key here is this -> you don't need her to acknowledge. You know.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Nooooo. She must validate it for it to be true...

Like I say. Much Progress. Much still to do.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

The fact that others have noticed and commented and she has not said boo... 

Says more about her than you. 

And sometimes I rhyme too.

How 'boutchoo?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I dont think it says anything about her, just where she is at.

She has warmed to me in her general demeanor and we are getting along really well. I do think there is a large dose of fear for her. Splitting was a huge decision for her. What if she lets me back in only to get burnt again. What if I have another depressed dip and screw up again.

I also think she spent time convincing herself the love wasnt real. That it couldnt have been. It was but will she let herself feel it again.

So many questions but only she could answer them. Right now I dont think she wants to do that incase she gets the answer wrong.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

I know its frustrating, KC. I know you don't want to wait forever.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> Its just frustrating. Everyone can see the change in me. She hasnt even acknpwledged it other than by us talking more than in ages.
> 
> I know I shouldnt be waiting on scraps from her but until I give up I dont know how not to. I have got better at not vocalising and acting upon it but inside is the same as ever.


Two thoughts.

One, she has noticed. She has changed her demeanour towards you. Watch her actions not her words - they are both more valuable and more telling. We are sometimes far too addicted to words.

Two, waiting for scraps from anyone (whether that is a partner, a teacher, a boss, a friend, a celebrity, etc.) devalues ourself. So, you want to be with her and are keen for a sign that she is beginning to feel the same way. But you also know that if she chooses not to be with you then you have alternatives. You will survive and thrive. So let her make her decision in the knowledge that you will be OK either way. Don't completely put your life on hold awaiting that decision. Assume it's a "no" for now and begin to rebuild your life on that basis. If it turns into a "yes" then you just change tack. 

Making a working assumption that it's "no" doesn't necessarily mean giving up on her. You can still work towards a hoped-for outcome whilst being aware that that outcome may never happen and knowing that if it doesn't you'll be OK.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I know all this. I tell myself the same all the time.

Then I catch myself thinking again.. 

I just want it to move from might work on it to will work/are working on it. Though if I am honest I would then be wanting the next step of progress just as much as I want that step now.

Doesn't help that I can't find a good time to ask her out again either as we both have so much on and our families so far away for childcare. Maybe think about a 'night in' at some point.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> I know all this. I tell myself the same all the time.


I know you know. But sometimes its helpful if people on here tell you what you already know - I find it helpful, anyway. 




K.C. said:


> I just want it to move from might work on it to will work/are working on it.


That's the hard bit, mate. You can't control other people. You can't make them love you or want you or want to spend time with you. You've just got to accept that and let go. 

You know that, too, of course. But it doesn't make it any easier.

I'm finding it so hard to let go. 


If you can't do a night out then how about a family activity together?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Hehe, I am like a spinning top some days. Roundandroundandround. hehe.

It certainly does help to have someone else say it too. Especially when you are consciously changing your behaviours from what you have allowed in the past to what you want to accept in the future. I keep second guessing myself; as much as I am liking myself better now, I do feel like I only just met myself and don't know me well enough yet..

Am I doing "this" as it's actually what I want, or is it what I used to want or, is it what I think I am supposed to want. Clearly the first of those has to be the answer going forward if I am am to be true to myself but it's hard to figure out if it is the case sometimes. 

We do family stuff together still anyway, so there is time and interaction together a lot anyway. It's time without the kids I feel we need too. If we are to progress we need to start communicating about the previous issues and what each other would expect etc etc. At the same time, as far as the kids know, we are over and they are handlling it really well so far. It would be very unfair to give them hope/confusion we are getting back together while just working on things in case it didn't work out in the end. Unless at some point way down the line we recommit to each other fully, the kids need to just carry on as we are now.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> If we are to progress we need to start communicating about the previous issues and what each other would expect etc etc.


Just a thought. How about you start off being more positive and forward looking - thinking about the good stuff you had in your relationship before, thinking how good you could be together and what a happy family unit you could make.

That is not to say that you ignore the problems. You just don't make them the focus of your discussions for now. Once you are committed to creating a positive future together you can look back at the problems of the past and discuss how to ensure that they do not arise again - or that you have a plan for addressing them if they do.

But starting off by focusing on past problems is both negative and backward looking - even if you are genuinely trying to solve those problems. It just keeps the bad things in your old relationship at the front of her mind - and yours - when you want her to be thinking about the good stuff you shared. And in a sense those problems died when the relationship died, so leave them in the graveyard. Beware of keeping them alive (by focusing on them) and dumping them lock, stock and barrel into any future relationship you may have.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Just a thought. How about you start off being more positive and forward looking - thinking about the good stuff you had in your relationship before, thinking how good you could be together and what a happy family unit you could make.
> 
> That is not to say that you ignore the problems. You just don't make them the focus of your discussions for now. Once you are committed to creating a positive future together you can look back at the problems of the past and discuss how to ensure that they do not arise again - or that you have a plan for addressing them if they do.
> 
> But starting off by focusing on past problems is both negative and backward looking - even if you are genuinely trying to solve those problems. It just keeps the bad things in your old relationship at the front of her mind - and yours - when you want her to be thinking about the good stuff you shared. And in a sense those problems died when the relationship died, so leave them in the graveyard. Beware of keeping them alive (by focusing on them) and dumping them lock, stock and barrel into any future relationship you may have.


:iagree:

Problems are drudgery. Just keep plugging away at a reconnection, but don't make it obvious. Try to enjoy it for what it is w/out strategizing beyond normal. 

I'm really rooting for you man.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

That makes a lot of sense. I have been thinking of how to convince her that "this or that" wouldn't happen again rather than what could happen instead.

If the opportunity presents itself (not by me going looking for it) I focus on the future and how positive that could be, but remain open and honest about the past if/when she wants to approach it?

I guess the instinctively looking back is to do with the guilt I still feel for my past actions. Even though I have tried to kind of disassociate them from the new better me (Jekyll and Hyde stuff I talked of before), I know I still own that responsibility. It may have been a 'different me' but it was still me. 

I guess I worry (no really? duhh) that looking forward will be seen as avoiding that responsibility but going forward positively would actually be in part resolving those issues rather than avoiding them.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Two thoughts.
> One, she has noticed. She has changed her demeanour towards you. Watch her actions not her words - they are both more valuable and more telling. We are sometimes far too addicted to words.


Don't discount words entirely. Women are verbal creatures, let's remember. Actions can be just as false as words. She can backpedal both words and actions.. "Oh I didn't mean it when I said that" is just as common as "I didn't mean it when I did that".


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> If the opportunity presents itself (not by me going looking for it) I focus on the future and how positive that could be, but remain open and honest about the past if/when she wants to approach it?


I think that makes sense.

I sat down with a friend of mine last week to discuss all of my issues. Every sentence I uttered started "the problem is...." He pulled me up and told me to stop telling him about problems and start talking about solutions. He was right.

If you do nothing but talk about problems with her....well, you aren't exactly reminding her of all the good reasons to be with you. Youre' just reminding her of all the reasons she left.



K.C. said:


> I guess the instinctively looking back is to do with the guilt I still feel for my past actions.


Guilt is a very corrosive emotion that tends to keep you anchored in the past. There is a fine line between owning and taking responsibility for your past actions and racking yourself with guilt over them. If you feel guilt you will never move on and as a result you will never allow your relationship to move on. You will just drag your nice shiny new relationship back to the old days - and that will be a disaster.

I think you have to do two things. The first is to draw a line between "old you" actions and "new you" actions. That's not denying responsibility for the old you actions. On the contrary - the New You has been created precisely because you do take responsibility for those actions and you are determined that you never want to be that guy again - that guy who who did those things. (Hope that makes sense).

The second thing I think you need to do is to develop some self-compassion and learn to forgive yourself. This isn't a bad book to help you: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Self-Compassion-Kristin-Neff/dp/1444738178 

To repeat - as long as you are dragging around your guilt you will drag it wherever you go. And that means that you will drag that guilt into your new relationship and infect the new relationship with the poison from the old.


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## Thewife (Sep 3, 2007)

Voltaire said:


> I think you have to do two things. The first is to draw a line between "old you" actions and "new you" actions. That's not denying responsibility for the old you actions. On the contrary - the New You has been created precisely because you do take responsibility for those actions and you are determined that you never want to be that guy again - that guy who who did those things. (Hope that makes sense).
> 
> The second thing I think you need to do is to develop some self-compassion and learn to forgive yourself.


Very true! I suffered from severe guilt (not related to my marriage) a few years back and threatened to change my life forever but forgiving myself & the others involved and making the necessary changes and amends helped tremendously.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

So a smile today when I remembered something from a long while ago but putting it here rather than hijacking that thread.

After I moved in with Mrs.C, we heard a noise outside in the night. Could hear, " Motorbike? A [email protected] Motorbike?" and smashing.. went out and her ex (the eldest's dad) was down our side entry smashing up my motorbike.

So while I went out and "restrained him" ahem after smashing him one a few times, the not yet Mrs.C was phoning the police.

Not only did I get the pleasure of sorting him out then giving him a little tap whenever he threatened to kill me while I sat on him.. How you gonna do that fella, smack. He then got the pleasure of the police showing up to remove him.

Little sh!t never did pay for the repairs as promised but then he has always been a useless sh!t to the eldest so no surprise.

Ahh happier times.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

the little things that make us smile years later. gotta love it.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Ugh random mini slump.

I hate leaving my 'home' to come back here. Was feeling fine till I closed the door behind me.

Feel like screaming to just let it out. I feel like a man dying of thirst surrounded by seawater. 

Not even tempted or even wanting to text or speak to her though so that has got to be progress. I am quite content to sit here in the quiet and work through the feeling. I don't feel it has anything to with her right now but has everything to do with being away from the kids each night I sleep here.

It's daft really as all I would be doing there is sleeping and possibly being woken up by the youngest instead of getting a full nights sleep here but I'd swap in a heartbeat. :scratchhead:


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

And feel free to *****slap the hell out of me but i keep wondering if she is 'playing' the single Mum card despite me being there as much as I am.

Not that I have any reason to think it.. I just am. FFS.

Snap out of it and get a grip ya bloody idiot.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

K.C. said:


> Snap out of it and get a grip ya bloody idiot.


While you're at it tell that inner critic to shut the hell up. You aint no idiot, just on a roller coaster. It wouldn't be fun if it didn't have dips.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

K.C. said:


> Ugh random mini slump.
> 
> I hate leaving my 'home' to come back here. Was feeling fine till I closed the door behind me.
> 
> ...


KC,

Are you paying the bills at both places?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Haha good point.

These slumps are getting better (less bad heh) each time. I still feel ok, I just hate being apart from the kids at all. Even if all they would be doing is stopping me from sleeping.

At least this one makes a change from the 'her and us' coaster. Have had enough of riding that one just now for sure.

I need entertaining. May have found a Meetup group that looks ok. Only so many times you can go the pub on your own lol. Think next meetup is next week, the group does a variety of event types but next one is just a bar meetup so might very well be worth a look.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Conrad said:


> KC,
> 
> Are you paying the bills at both places?



Nah. She is financially independent now. Month to month I put only dribs and drabs into the family home and seeing as I eat there most of the time, I probably cost her money each month.

As I am at Uni, my employed income is pretty small at, basically work covers my own rent and expenses only. Then when I get my Uni money every few months, most of that goes into the family as my contribution.

I have no complaints on that score. I even sleep there a fair bit too so I am not feeling hard done by.. "moving out" was my decision as being there 7 days a week was driving me nuts with the distance between us. I am doing better with my own head-space to come to. It's just the kids thing.

That I am not there if they need me etc.

It's all good, just needed a little vent.

Really I have very little to complain about compared to other peoples access/financial situations.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

SSDD.

Trying to find my motivation. If it's reflecting on self and the like, i'm all over it but other stuff I have to really force myself to do it.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

K.C. said:


> SSDD.
> 
> Trying to find my motivation. If it's reflecting on self and the like, i'm all over it but other stuff I have to really force myself to do it.


I understand this...I do. I had to make myself go out to that 80's thing. I even went late. Left early. I just don't have an interest in much. I feel more content being at home right now in my bed watching a movie hangin' with the dawgs. Is that weird? I actually dread summer coming right now because I dread the idea of having to move about when I'm not ready too and I don't know if I want to see the body of water thawed...(the lake)...it's hard for me.. 'triggers'.. 

I hate going to walmart and cub...lol! 

Motivation...you have any idea how many times now I bxtch about needing to go to the gym...and I set a day...touch my gym stuff...and don't go...what's my problem??? :scratchhead::scratchhead:


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I hear you. I have had the money in my account to join the uni gym for a week now. but just doing the actualy uni stuff is such a chore.. I still havent joined.

Give em a self help book and I'm off. I am so focused on sorting myself out that everything else seems unimportant despite getting fit, doing uni etc being part of sorting myself out.

Bleh.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Having the urge to offer a foot rub.

Not to get anything else, just to do it for her like used to.

Can you guess what my main move language is.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Someome have a 2x4 handy?

I err, sigh. Bah just d'oh.

I'd been doing so well too.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

K.C. said:


> Someome have a 2x4 handy?
> 
> I err, sigh. Bah just d'oh.
> 
> I'd been doing so well too.


The Big Chipper stands ready to hear your confession.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I caved and text that she still has birthday IOU's to use but that she could have a footrub for free.

Text even though in same room.

What a tool. Heh.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

K.C. said:


> I caved and text that she still has birthday IOU's to use but that she could have a footrub for free.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Think they may need nails in tbh. They dont seem to working too well.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Doh!


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Indeed.

Needless to say no response and I'm back to square one. I dont feel beat up about it, i'm nkt falling apart. But I knew it was a bad move so I just feel stupid.

Why does my snakes and ladders board only have snakes?


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Watch the inner critic. Stupid actions do not make a stupid man.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I'm smart enough to know it wouldn't be responded to but not strong enough to not do it.

My inner critic meant weak not stupid.

I'm good. But I dont think I'm cut out for this. I just want to be my natural self with her. That was enough for her to marry me before the depression. 

I suck at restraining myself from showing affection. 

I have a ways to go.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

WTF.

I am actually still feeling in a great mood?

Like I messed up but the positive mood that brought it on is still here rather than evaporating at first hint of rejection.

I have no idea what that means or if it means nothing at all.

Better this than the old reaction though.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

KC,

Have you ever read any books about picking up women?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

No.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

K.C. said:


> No.


Get a copy of this one.

Amazon.com: Buying Choices: The Layguide: How to Seduce Women More Beautiful Than You Ever Dreamed Possible No Matter What You Look Like or How Much You Make

They also have a Kindle edition available.

Of course, you don't let your wife see you reading this, but there are many many ways you can increase your own attractiveness to her without putting on some sort of act.

This is as complete a reference as I can think of to help get your woman to desire you.

That's really what you're looking for.

Needy texts aren't going to get the job done.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Needy texts aren't going to get the job done.


I honestly get that. Even as I typed it and hit send I knew it was stupid. I really don't know why I didn't listen to myself. I even put the phone down between typing it and sending... then still hit send. :scratchhead:

As for 'pickup' books. I have to admit I am kinda uncomfortable with that whole idea. I don't want to be a pick up artist. I presume your saying it's transferable or whatever and it's not putting on an act.. I don't know though??


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

KC,

You should have seen me this past Summer - offering and handing out massages. It was pitiful. At the time, I felt I was doing the right thing by expressing myself to this woman - I got nothing back in return. Yet, I kept offering and providing these services. 

I was devaluing myself to this woman with each offer until I stopped.

I attracted this woman initially because I was different. I was hard to get. I didn't pander to her like every other guy would. She was beautiful and she didn't get the typical reaction from me. She became and remained intrigued...

That all changed when I became part of the flock.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

K.C. said:


> I honestly get that. Even as I typed it and hit send I knew it was stupid. I really don't know why I didn't listen to myself. I even put the phone down between typing it and sending... then still hit send. :scratchhead:
> 
> As for 'pickup' books. I have to admit I am kinda uncomfortable with that whole idea. I don't want to be a pick up artist. I presume your saying it's transferable or whatever and it's not putting on an act.. I don't know though??


Read my post again about Submitting to the Truth.

You heard that "still small voice" before you sent that text.

Learn to listen to it.

The PUA book is to give you perspective on what is attractive to women. Get it, download it, whatever.

Never let her see you read it.

Use the parts of it - ON HER - that you are comfortable using. And, push the envelope a bit to up your game.

It WILL get her attention - in a positive way - I guarantee it.


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## Thewife (Sep 3, 2007)

QUOTE=K.C.;1488122]

I suck at restraining myself from showing affection. [/QUOTE]


I suck at that too


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## Thewife (Sep 3, 2007)

I am getting worst from bad in quoting, sorry


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Overslept. Feel rather icky.

Delayed crash or coincidence? I should have been at family home half hour ago but havent even left here yet. Gonna grab taxi and hopefully wont have made anyone late.

/Kicks self up ass to get moving.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

IN my recent good moods I think I, no scrub that, I have allowed myself to slip back into 'her' mode. Focus was slipping off me and drifting back to trying to reach her.

So in an effort to get back on track, have just signed up to a group on Meetup and will be going to an open mic night next Thursday.

That will be a new experience for me as I have never done any sort of social group where I didn't already know at least one person. Quite daunting in a way, but hey, can't be any worse than going totally on your own can it. It's time to kick-start my social life and going the pub on my own wasn't really doing that for me.

I also will be joining the uni gym as previously said. I will be doing this on Monday, no excuses.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Why do I feel horrible for playful flirting here and there on TAM?

It's been bugging me all day, like I am doing something wrong but it's not like I am trying to dive into anyone's knickers or misleading anyone, just have a laugh with people I would be happy to flirt with if I was as single in my own mind as she says I am.

I don't even care if she reads the posts as I don't feel I have done anything wrong and I have enjoyed the playfulness of it. I feel it's just part of the mutual support so why do I feel confused about it?

Is it just that I am facing the fact that I may well feel "free" to be doing this for real soon while not wanting to give up on my marriage yet?


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

BAHAAHAHA! Free footrub! Holy Sh!t, I just peed my pants. I'm having an emotional needy day but dam KC you just made me spit coke all over computer monitor. Thanks for the laugh.

Dust yourself off and don't do it again.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Heh, well at least some good came of it! 

Part of it is that affectionate caring side of me was swamped by the depression.

I am very much a 'touch' person and pre depression would happily give footrubs and massage without expecting sex in return. Sure I admit I wanted it, as I am HD, but it was never conditional. I could understand her drive was lower than mine and sometimes it was not going to lead to anything else at all. But those sort of touches are how I naturally convey and feel affection.

Peering back into the fog, as I got deeper into it, I did still 'offer' but "only" when I wanted sex. What I was offering became conditional and was very much giving to receive. Due to my past and my love languages and the "need" for her to validate our love, this effectively meant I was constantly harassing her for sex. Then feeling increasingly unloved and rejected when she didn't want to.

[email protected], why would she want a footrub now, even being unconditional as it was intended, when in the end she was uncomfortable with even a cuddle as she couldn't do that without thinking I was going to move in for sex. I would go for it even when she was in no position to reciprocate.

It bugs me that if I had been having an affair to satiate my HD, I wouldn't have been treating her like a piece of meat and may not have upset her so much. Like I think our marriage could have been saved from an affair easier than the depression. Someone wanting to save his marriage wondering if he "should" of had an affair.. jeez man, get a grip.

Hows that for a mind-trip.

Fact is, my need for sex wasn't about the sex but a need to feel loved as depression overpowered my self-esteem. If it had just been about the sex, my high drive may well have took me elsewhere but it never did. I wanted sex very much but only with her. As I wanted her to "show" me she loved me. 

She gave little loving gifts and said she loved me. She did things for me to express she loved me, but I couldn't believe it unless she got naked for me. A wife or GF is not a wh0re, is not there to satiate your every need regardless of theirs. I never thought any of that but I see my actions clearly conveyed that to her none the less.

Insanity. Now I could go and look elsewhere, I have no interest, I don't get horny constantly like I did with her as it was very much a Love thing rather than a sex thing. I don't feel any urge to get laid at all. 

I don't even get that "free for sex" silver lining to being separated.

sandc's recent thread got me thinking about this a lot more recently. Different situations entirely but that whole sex for validation. Yup I was all over that like a rash.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

I do not understand a thing you just said KC? WTF was that.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I don't understand what you don't undrstand? 

Basically,

My main love language is Physical Touch.

To show love and feel love, things like holding hands, foot rubs massages etc were a natural thing for me. Sex too of course but certainly not just sex.

Then I got depressed.

Sought touch and sex as evidence she still loved me.

Any time she said no, i took it as a sign of not loving when if fact she did, I just wasn't "seeing" it.

The more worried about her not loving me I got, the more I sought physical reassurance.

The more I sought these physical reassurances while being moody, distant and unpleasant due to depression the rest of the time, the more she felt used, the more she rejected my advances.

the more unloved and depressed I felt, the more i pushed for reassurance..

Vicious circle.

Now not depressed.. I try to show I have changed back to old K.C. by offering a footrub when 6 months ago that would simply have been me wanting sex.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

"Reassurance Sex" is the high sacrament of Codependence


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Got ya the second time KC


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I have already accepted that label. I don't fit the whole spectrum but enough of it that if it looks like a dog, barks like a dog and pisses up the tree like a dog.. well, just call it a dog.

In fact well before I knew about CD, in my more rational moments, I knew the "reassurance of sex" was irrational. The dark cloud of depression skews everything though and those rational moments got few and far between.

Looking back from out of the dark cloud, I knew I had sought sex too much and was angry with myself, but having articulated the 'why behind it' has calmed that anger. I was trashing myself for simply being selfish and stupid. Now I understand better why I was doing it, I feel nothing other than regret that I didn't come to this realisation sooner. The 'why' is something tangible I can examine and work on. The anger at having done it was not.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

KC,

Here's the thing.

Reassurance sex never does the trick anyway.

Our needs are met when they are hot for us.

Hence the focus on the PUA literature, building desire, etc.

It's all related.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Thanks.

Between sandc and yourself i have been looking at that physical "need" and attraction a lot today. PUA stuff still seems a little 'contrived' but then I have never read one so maybe I should just stfu and see what I am comfortable taking from it like you say.

As reassurance sex not doing it. Yup totally already got that. Our sex life got pretty poor as although we still had it, it was duty sex for her and I got very little satisfaction from it as she was clearly going through the motions. Best sexual experiences were always when she initiated or at least invited me to in some way.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Bed time I think.

I think will sleep better tonight. Feeling much more at peace again.

Today has been pretty positive overall. I feel I have identified an area to work on. Well I already knew it needed work but maybe I have a better understanding and angle to approach it now.

I didn't compound last nights silliness with any new screw ups.

I didn't beat myself (too much) for last night.

Made a positive step with regards developing a social life.

Yup, had worst days.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Can't wait to go to the job I can't stand. I quite like the peeps I work with and need some company.

Feeling very alone right now.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

No advice really, but wanted to pop in to let you know I'm thinking of you. I stand in awe of your honesty and courage.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Thanks Lyris.

It isn't even missing Mrs.C today.

I just feel so distant from anyone, I do miss being able to turn to her when feeling like this, but it isn't her I am thinking about as such.

It is sad that I allowed my life to become so dependant on her and the kids that with her not there in that sense anymore and the kids in school.. life is empty.

I am working fixing that but making friends etc takes time and it sucks right here and now.

Maybe I need a double dose of happy pills today?  

No I don't mean it.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> Thanks Lyris.
> 
> It isn't even missing Mrs.C today.
> 
> ...


Sounds to me like what you're really missing is YOU.

No sense of identity, no sense of purpose, no sense that there is actually a person inside that shell you call a body. 

I may be wrong, but it looks to me like you have to find yourself and discover who and what you are.



I hope that doesn't sound too harsh - it's not meant to


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Kind of.

Not to the extreme you make it sound though. I am regaining a fair idea about myself as an individual. Remembering who I was, pre-depression and figuring out who I want to be now. I don't want to be pre-depression K.C. again as he had unresolved issues that led to the depression in the first place.

That original me is a pretty good guy and a decent place to start from though. I had an identity and I had dreams. I feel closer and closer to being "myself" every day.

I just don't have much experience of being me the last 5 years or so. The old real me enjoyed socialising and hanging out with friends, now i am getting back to that, I don't have any friends closer than 40 miles away to do anything with. Having re-awakened my desire to socially interact with people outside my family.. I don't have the option. I get on well with most anybody but have always been a bit reserved meeting new people. That is something else i have been working on for weeks already and thursdays meetup thing will hopefully be a big step in that direction.

So yeah, first step, complete the current aim, you could call that reaching K.C. v1.1 maybe. The old me but wiser and with a more defined route ahead. that route being to reach a genuine feeling of being K.C. v2.0

The delay between realisation and actualisation of that desire is lonely. I think what i am realising is as much as i loved my family and being with them, i was lonely for other companionship all along. That is probably a large part of the resentment and anger I was suppressing. I sacrificed my social life on the alter of my family, despite them never having asked me to that in the first place.

I was so focused on being like my parents, and to be a god Dad for my boys, I forgot all about being me somewhere along the line

Again as with yesterdays realisation about other things, it is at least a tangible thing I can work on. It is something within my power to correct and I have taken steps to do that.

Got to get my focus back on these things I can directly fix and leave anything else that may come of it to happen or not happen as it will.

Just to contradict myself a little, i have a 'date' idea in mind for a few weeks away. If I decide to do it, I will fish for whether her diary is free for it and just go ahead arrange and tell her we are going out. Not like forceful but instead of pu$$yfooting around asking for her permission to do it, I will be more assertive with it. Kind of how I was about hairspray but more so. 

I have arranged for "x event" on "date y", childcare already sorted, I'll be there at "time z", wear something warm.

Or something like that. If we are to have date nights as previously said, I need to act like a man, not the shadowy approval seeker I had become.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. that all sounds great. I know my original point sounded overly negative but you have responded with a very positive list of things.

I guess the thing about getting back in touch with yourself is that sometimes that connection will feel stronger than at other times. What I was really trying to say to you was that sometimes when external factors seem to be getting you down (job, uni, her, etc.) it may just be that the real root issue is internal. That connection with yourself may just be a bit weak at that particular time.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

K.C. said:


> The delay between realisation and actualisation of that desire is lonely. I think what i am realising is as much as i loved my family and being with them, i was lonely for other companionship all along. That is probably a large part of the resentment and anger I was suppressing. I sacrificed my social life on the alter of my family, despite them never having asked me to that in the first place.
> 
> I was so focused on being like my parents, and to be a good Dad for my boys, I forgot all about being me somewhere along the line


I did exactly this.^



K.C. said:


> I have arranged for "x event" on "date y", childcare already sorted, I'll be there at "time z", wear something warm.
> 
> Or something like that. If we are to have date nights as previously said, I need to act like a man, not the shadowy approval seeker I had become.


Excellent! Decisive man with a plan. She always has the option of saying no or suggesting something else. Showing her you know exactly what you want to do and are ready to do it is great. All she has to worry about is whether or not she wants to come along.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Itd ok V. I took in the spirit offered. Anything that helps me clarify my thoughts is welcome.

Z, thats what I am thinking. Without pushing too fast when I do try for something, I need to be proactive and myself about it. Like I would have to if she was someone new.

After the expense of the last thing, I have looked for something less so. I dont want to be seen as trying to buy her. This one is a free event so would just be childcare and food/drink while there. Cheap but hopefully cheerful and maybe she will appreciate the thought and effort over expense.

Got to treat it as dating rather than date night with the wife in both thought and action.

Other than that its all about me Gym on monday no excuses and the open mike night with that meetup on thursday. 

Also need to go all out catching up with uni.finish the year and can weigh up my degree/career options then.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

We had a chat this morning about where we are etc.

I think I have made a decision but am going to spend a day or so thinking on it first.


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

Marking my spot....hugs....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

There's no rush, make sure it's absolutely what you want to do. Because you don't need to be in limbo or wavering back and forth for much longer. Sometimes you just need to say 'enough'


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I read far too much into her maybe.

Time to let go and respect her decision.

In work but can't stop crying.

So thought I was past the tears and better prepared for this. I always knew it was likely to end this way.

Time to stop fooling myself and living in hope. She isnt coming back.

I'm running up the white flag.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

I'm so very sorry KC, this is probably cd but I am just devastated for you. I know you. Put your heart and soul into winning her back. I wish I had something useful to say. All I can say is my heart goes out to you. xox


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Nothing to say really. I always knew it was likely. Lets face it. Who do I think I am to presume I know her mind better than she does.

I was so convinced there was something left to rekindle. There really isnt.

Time to stop playing with fairies and get on with my plans for fixing myself without her.

Right after I stop crying that is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

K.C. said:


> Nothing to say really. I always knew it was likely. Lets face it. Who do I think I am to presume I know her mind better than she does.
> 
> I was so convinced there was something left to rekindle. There really isnt.
> 
> ...


KC,

Being honest with yourself is essential.

Most people would rather stay asleep than wake up.

Yet, waking up is the ultimate empowerment.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

This one's for you, K.C.

Eleanor Mcevoy - Whisper a prayer to the moon - YouTube

We are all thinking about you.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Nothing wrong with crying my darling, let it all out. The tears will dry up eventually, then the world will start looking a bit brighter. You have a good relationship with your kids and are at least civil with each other. Sometimes things just don't work out - there's no shame in that. 

You've tried to fix things - that's all you can do
Dolly hug! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

A million thanks guys.

I am in bits but I dread where I would have been without finding TAM.

I will get through it and no doubt my situation could be much much worst.

Think Spunky would mind me stealing her old name? I sure as hell have abandonent issues to work through now along with all my others.

I am getting no work done as I am not fit to be in front of a customer and to make today even better, I have to run the store with 25% less staff than the normal minimum.

Am not a happy camper at all today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Muse - Survival (THE 2ND LAW) - YouTube

This one helped me keep a good attitude on the day I filed, KC. 

Sorry it has come to this... but you will survive. You are strong. Your thread, posts, and honest introspection have been an inspiration.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> I read far too much into her maybe.
> 
> Time to let go and respect her decision.
> 
> ...


You're not running up the white flag. You are calling a halt to self-flaggelation and moving on.

The tears are normal. No matter how much you tell yourself you are ready to walk away, it is only when you actually take the decision to do so that you admit to yourself that the relationship is over. And it is only when you admit that that you can mourn.

Give the marriage the decent burial that it deserves, honouring your commitment to it. No-one could possibly accuse you of not being 100% committed to make it work. You have demonstrated that time and again. But once you have held the funeral let it go, shed a few last tears, and move on.

I talk a good story but I have yet to really do what you are doing now. I admire your decisiveness and your bravery. Good luck.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Got to do it without hope now though.

Through it all so far I think I have honestly thought we would at least "try". I have said before will do it without her but honestly there was always hope behind it.

Now feels different. I cant keep it going one way anymore.

I'm too tired and there is nothing left I can do anyway. So as of today, I am as done as she is. I wish it wasnt this way but I have to accept her decision.

I dont get to decideshe has feelings for me under it all. I dont get to decide she will come around in time.

All I can do is be me to the best of my ability. Be Dad to my boys and work on myself while waiting for the heartache to ease. It has to at some point right?

All other plans still need to be kept to. I am doing them for me afterall. Just have to keep motivated wothout her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> Got to do it without hope now though.


Hope can sometimes be a false friend.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

It can help you through the day.

Thing is, end of the day you are still in the same place.

Managed to get some work done last couple hours. Back in control of myself. Just feel numb instead.

Basically the hope has set me back 2 months. Having done it once, maybe with accepting it myself now, it will be less painful this time.

Maybe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> It can help you through the day.


Yeah, but only in the way that a drug helps you get through the day. Not good in the long run. And as you rightly say _"Thing is, end of the day you are still in the same place."_



K.C. said:


> Just feel numb instead.


They say that when you grieve your system only gives you whatever pain and emotion you can handle at that time. Clearly your system is saying that you need a bit of time before you can process anything. 

But it sounds like you really have completely given up on the relationship. Which is good. Good for you, and good because walking away completely is probably the only chance you have of reconciling. She will have sensed your hope and she may well have felt guilty or as if your hope put a burden on her shoulders. Without that in time she may well feel more free to approach you - but don't hope for it!



K.C. said:


> Basically the hope has set me back 2 months.


No it hasn't. You are not the man you were 2 months ago. You have made a huge amount of progress that will stand you in good stead whether you R or not.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Thanks V.

Realy do feel more and more like my old self everyday.

My old self had a lot of growing to do so I am under no illusions that I am nearly there.

As to any chance of R. Been there. I have to believe it wont happen. Not because I dont want it but because hoping for it was holding back and colouring my thinking.

The drug thing is very apt. It's time to get clean. No hope. No addiction. Just me.

I can do it.
I will do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SpunkySpunky (Dec 17, 2012)

KC. Sending you virtual hugs.

Crying is normal. I still do it. 

Just know you were 100% committed and you should feel no shame.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> My old self had a lot of growing to do so I am under no illusions that I am nearly there.


I bet your old self didn't have anything like that same degree of self-awareness. So you are probably considerably further on than your old self.

In any case, we are all works in progress. You can't sit there and work on yourself and work on yourself until you are nearly perfect and only then go out and engage with the world. Don;t wait until you are "fixed". Don't even think of yourself as faulty and in need of fixing. Just get out there as you are. Growth is not the same as fixing, and a vital part of growth is getting out there and interacting with the world. 



K.C. said:


> As to any chance of R. Been there. I have to believe it wont happen. Not because I dont want it but because hoping for it was holding back and colouring my thinking.


Just think of all of that Jedi training in Star Wars. Or Buddhist philosophy if you prefer. The only chance you have of getting what you want is to give it up completely. 



K.C. said:


> I can do it.
> I will do it.


You ARE doing it.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

So sorry to see where you're at, KC. 

But you're right, you were out there flapping in the wind for a long time. 

Resolution, one way or the other, has to eventually bring some relief. 

Hang tough.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Well today has started awesome.

Eldest says he hates me, wishes he had never met me and why couldn't Mum have married someone else, anyone else.

Whether it is meant or not I just can't take it right now.


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

How old is the eldest again? Its definitely not meant but I know how bad that stings right now. To kids, they are just words and don't realize the pain they can cause. Try not to take it personally, which I know is easier said than done. 

Keep moving forward, time to put all that good advice you give to me into action....for yourself. 

*hugs*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

Sigh...

KC
I can't tell you any words you haven't already heard. But damn dude I wish I could just hug you and hang out with you. You should just hop on a plane or drive to where I'm at...and hang at the lake house...I have a 55" flat screen surround sound the place shakes during a movie...you could ice fish....meet some hicks 'and' city people...you could fix my washer...lol!  I'm an excellent cook too!

I wish I could help...is what I'm saying. Your the sweetest guy...I wish I could take away your sadness and give you the hope you desire...I'm sowry your stbx is an idiot for letting you go. I think she's nutz. 

I'd scoop you up in a second...*muah!!!


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## Thewife (Sep 3, 2007)

So sorry to read that KC, I have worked with kids of that age and I know they can be absolutely hurtful if they want to but they don't really understand the exact meaning of what they say...please don't analyse this

Whenever life throws me to the lowest I try to look people who are even lower than that, this helps me to appreciate my life as what it is and enjoy it without letting others ruin it. 

Drop all thinking right now (easy said than done) go get yourself busy, you have a better job to do that is to show others that you are better than what they think. 

Is it possible for you to take a short vacation in your hometown with your family and friends? It will greatly help.


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

Stella Moon said:


> Sigh...
> 
> KC
> I can't tell you any words you haven't already heard. But damn dude I wish I could just hug you and hang out with you. You should just hop on a plane or drive to where I'm at...and hang at the lake house...I have a 55" flat screen surround sound the place shakes during a movie...you could ice fish....meet some hicks 'and' city people...you could fix my washer...lol!  I'm an excellent cook too!
> ...


Youde have to get in line behind me Stella!! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> Well today has started awesome.
> 
> Eldest says he hates me, wishes he had never met me and why couldn't Mum have married someone else, anyone else.
> 
> Whether it is meant or not I just can't take it right now.


She has clearly said something to him, blaming you for "walking out". Actions speak louder than words, particularly with kids, so just be a fantastic, loving Dad and he will very quickly understand that you haven't walked out on HIM (which is how he is feeling right now, encouraged no doubt by her)

Stay strong. Be a rock for the kids and they will gravitate towards you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

You fought the good fight & have nothing to be ashamed of or to think you didn't do enough. You played it smart & mature & can hold your head high.
A lot of guys in your shoes would have tried to force a decision by constant crying & begging, but you didn't. She may not "want" you anymore but I promise you she knows what she lost.
As far as kids saying they "hate" you, I was always taught you aren't being a true parent until you hear those words. My 3, now all in their 20s used to say it repeatedly at times. Congrats, you're a great dad.
Once you believe in your heart that its over, then the hurt will lessen each day. Being in limbo is an "open wound" that never heals. Hang in there buddy.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Thanks guys i knew he didnt mean it and we sorted it. Timing just sucked for me.

I know it could seem she saidsomething but it wasnt like that. He was just lashing out as he got himself in trouble. Mrs.C went and dealt with him.

Like I say I am lucky to be where I am in that sense. There is no animosity from her.

I think she has forgiven "me" for "Mr Hyde's" behaviour. She likes me and is very positive about my influence on the kids. I even suspect she knows she isletting a good thing go.

She cant be forced to feel what she doesnt though so thats that.

I deserve better than a marriage of convenience and so does she.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Oh and ladies,

How you doin? ... 

Small matter of 4k miles sadly. 

Dont let that stop you though. My ego needs all the help it can get. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

So that wasn't so bad.

It's a doddle this separation lark once you settle your mind. 

Only one moment being near losing it and that was only because I was day dreaming about her having a sudden change of heart. D'oh.

Started work in new store today, same compnay. Was a waste of time transferring.. I asked for it largely to try and assuage Mrs.C about my supposed affair with a colleague in the store I was in. That of course is irrelevant to anything now though. But being in a new store with a new team to work with helped keep my mind on the task at hand.

The new store is much smaller and should be less stressful so that's good and as I wont be 'bossing them about' any more, there are a couple of the team from the other store that I am quite friendly with so I may keep in touch with socially.

The blowout with the eldest was sorted and we are all good again. he just didn't like being told off and threw a tantrum basically. If anyone has lingering doubts, it had zero to do with Mrs.C and in fact, she was her usual great self with smoothing it out.

If I can mentally and emotionally cope with 'just friends' there is no reason we can't have a good and productive relationship. As things stand I'm fine with that. I have been honest with myself though, if she starts dating.. i really don't know how I will react. 

All I can do is work on the emotional detachment and hope if/when it happens, I handle it well enough to not affect how things work with the kids at least. The thought of her with someone else makes me nauseous right now. While I think she is quite happy being on her own atm (first time in a long time, even before me) she would have no trouble attracting people when she is ready. She is a fantastic catch, if only I had realised I was worth of her all along maybe I wouldn't have become so depressed and blahblahblah if's but's and maybe's... So I have to be prepared for that as best I can. It will happen unless she for some crazy reason decided to be alone for ever. Don't see it and wouldn't wish it on her either.

That I can see her having options in that sense isn't a surprise to me. I have always held her in the highest regard and that hasn't changed. What has come as a surprise and is a change for me, is that I am starting to see myself in that same light. I will only be single for so long as i choose to be. I am finally waking up to the fact that when I 'caught' Mrs.C, it wasn't a fluke. It was two people that deserved each other coming together. I have learnt so much from her and from the split too.. She had the worst of me, but the best of me is yet to come. Someone is going to get the benefit of that one day. Shame it won't be her.

I am accepting it is over and i am choosing to no longer stay in limbo. I have to move on myself. Now right now I am a million miles from being ion a place where i can engage in a relationship but I will attempt to be open to whatever may be in the course of opening my social circle. No intention of looking for relations but part of moving on is no longer telling myself "It would be wrong" because I am married.

My marriage is now just a slip of paper that needs to be kept for practical reasons re where we end up living in the next couple of years. I have not really given much thought to the D word as we probably can't look at that for several years at least but I have to presume it is in the future. If it wasn't for the practical side of where we may move to and visas etc, there would be no reason for us to not be doing it now. In fact without that practical concern I am pretty sure she would have used the D word very early in the separation if not immediately.

Sad but true.

She gets what she wants. Who knows, as little as i want this, it may be just what I need. Time to put on my big boy trousers and stand on my own.

Do I still have thoughts of us back together one day? For sure. I can't suddenly change that want but I have consigned those wants to the 'dream' category. Time to deal in reality. Reality is she doesn't want me or desire me any more. No amount of words, gestures or even actions and changes on my part can affect that.


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

K.C. said:


> So that wasn't so bad.
> 
> It's a doddle this separation lark once you settle your mind.
> 
> ...


Wow....very courageous...I want to think like you. So proud of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

God, KC, I'm so sorry, I can feel your anguish across the big sea, I really understand. 

I'm the same way, the thought of my WS with another man is without a doubt the hardest thing ive ever had to grapple with in all my years. I simply don't know how people comes to terms with it. It's something so basic, so primordial.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

familyfirst09 said:


> Wow....very courageous...I want to think like you. So proud of you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I thought her telling me it was over was hard. me accepting it and "choosing" to move on has been just as hard. I feel something of a weight lift though. I no longer have to concern myself about how she see's the changes I make. I don't have to worry about impressing her or putting effort into winning her over. At last it can truly be all about me and of course the boys. I still respect her opinion but can feel free t make my own decisions.



Bullwinkle said:


> God, KC, I'm so sorry, I can feel your anguish across the big sea, I really understand.
> 
> I'm the same way, the thought of my WS with another man is without a doubt the hardest thing ive ever had to grapple with in all my years. I simply don't know how people comes to terms with it. It's something so basic, so primordial.


This x100. Right now my mind and heart have reached agreement, it is time and that will happen at some point... deep down though it is a horrible, horrible thought. I can see why people who have been cheated on are so devastated by it. The thought of it 'after' we have split is bad enough for me.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

This thread is done.

New me, new thread;

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/68843-phoenix-ashes.html#post1501339


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