# if the shoe was on the other foot



## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

I had a EA with wife's friend she knows about it.... we are in MC.... it's a long mess of a story and I guess D-Day was 5 months ago... I cannot believe she did not leave ... I think if she did this I would have left... is that typical , the female stays more often and the male leaves?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Yep........

But be careful because about 50% of all betrayed spouses end up having revenge affairs. It's generally done as an attempt to repair the complete destruction of their self worth that the original affair caused.


If you want to keep your marriage, you need to be busting your butt to fix it. My suggestion is that you get the two books "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs". They are about affair proofing your marriage. Get her to read them with you and do the required work together.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

You sound disappointed that she stayed? Did you enter into the A as an indirect way to leave her? 
Are you remorseful about this and want this to work out? If you have answered Yes, Yes and No, then you should be honest with your BW and do the right thing and discuss a divorce.
There is no point in entering into a R with your already wounded wife to destroy her all over again?

In making a decision to leave or stay women are different as they generally think about children (if there are any), family members affected, etc, long term outcome, financial situation, etc. This does not mean though that you are off the hook and it may well come back to bite you especially when the above factors change. An affair destroys trust and trust is something that is very very difficult to rebuild. You may get to a point where you are moving along well with each other but things will never ever be the same again, she will never look at you the same way again.

If you genuinely want this to work you need to be pulling out all the stops to make things right.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

kivadbd1 said:


> I had a EA with wife's friend she knows about it.... we are in MC.... it's a long mess of a story and I guess D-Day was 5 months ago... I cannot believe she did not leave ... I think if she did this I would have left... is that typical , the female stays more often and the male leaves?


Sooo... even after ^this^, you were (or are...?) STILL thinking of asking your wife for an open marriage?

Well, I guess we know who you had in mind for your FWB.


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

I am not disappointed that she stayed and I want to work on myself and and why I cheated. I just feel like after all this, she is either plotting, or she is very forgiving and maybe she does love me. Our MC says I am a bit psychopathic and she is a placater ?

I now have a ton of **** going on in my head... why did I cheat, why did she forgive me? has she cheated and I don't know it ? Do I really want to stay married? did I cheat hoping she would leave? 

when we were raising our children it seemed I had no time to even think of an affair , or if she was having one... we needed each other to get through the struggles of raising children. Now we are a bit older and the children do not need us as much....


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

You cannot control your wife's reactions or the eventual outcome. You screwed up terribly and now must make it right. It seems however you need IC before MC because you have personal issues which you are bringing into the marriage. You wife may stay for a host of reasons but instead of over analysing maybe you should be thankful you have been given one more chance, many wives would have kicked u out.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Do you respect your wife?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

Like MattMatt asked, "Do you respect your wife?" I would go even further and ask do you respect her for staying and putting up with your bad behavior?

Would you have prefer she left? 

The reasons she stayed maybe: because she loves you so much and could not see herself being without you.

Or, she remembers the man whom she fell in love with and still see some of him in you.

Or, she is thinking about family, kids and finances.

You are very lucky that she still wants to be with you. Accept this gift that you were given. Work on yourself and why you betrayed your wife and marriage. What caused you to do such a destructive thing. Take the advice given and work thru those books recommend with your wife. Get some help together, to rebuild a stronger and happier marriage. Best of luck.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

You obviously can never truly know what goes on in someone's head. So accept it and continue on.


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

I do respect her.. after all this I feel that I am the lucky one... I think some of it is that she did not want to blow up the entire 18 years for this. Not to say that she was not super pissed... and asks me a ton of questions. She knows I am truly sorry... but I think from here on out she will be looking for clues... I asked her if she trusts me and she said yes... It's as if she looks at me and says.... stupid man.... and some days she wants to know why I wanted sex with another person... I just told her it was exciting and I was being foolish... I mean it's not easy being in this spot... at least she did not leave...I think some of it is also that fact that she wanted to 'WIN' over the OW winning... if that makes any sense


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

kivadbd1 said:


> I do respect her.. after all this I feel that I am the lucky one... I think some of it is that she did not want to blow up the entire 18 years for this. Not to say that she was not super pissed... and asks me a ton of questions. She knows I am truly sorry... but I think from here on out she will be looking for clues... I asked her if she trusts me and she said yes... It's as if she looks at me and says.... stupid man.... and some days she wants to know why I wanted sex with another person... I just told her it was exciting and I was being foolish... I mean it's not easy being in this spot... at least she did not leave...I think some of it is also that fact that she wanted to 'WIN' over the OW winning... if that makes any sense




Winning over the other woman? Kind of sounds a little conceited on your part. Do you have empathy for your wife? I don't see how you respect her unless I'm reading this post entirely wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

You see, I just shared this experience with my SIL. She is in your wife's shoe. She does not care about winning over the OW. She just wants to hold on to the man she loves and the life the two of you created. 

You are having the same reaction as my BIL, its an ego booster to know two women are fighting for you. Be honest, you like that feeling.

Trust is not there now. She is not going to trust your axx for a long, long time. You are stupid to ask that question. You are not prepared for her honest answer. 

She has a right to her anger, pain and mistrust. You don't get to question that. You need to provide honest and truthful answers to her questions. Even if she ask you 100xs.

You have damaged your wife. You have placed cracks in your foundation. 

You have lots of work to do, buckle down and start working.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

kivadbd1 said:


> I am not disappointed that she stayed and I want to work on myself and and why I cheated. I just feel like after all this, she is either plotting, or she is very forgiving and maybe she does love me. Our MC says I am a bit psychopathic and she is a placater ?
> 
> I now have a ton of **** going on in my head... why did I cheat, why did she forgive me? has she cheated and I don't know it ? Do I really want to stay married? did I cheat hoping she would leave?
> 
> when we were raising our children it seemed I had no time to even think of an affair , or if she was having one... we needed each other to get through the struggles of raising children. Now we are a bit older and the children do not need us as much....


A diagnosis of "being a bit psychopathic" is beyond the pay grade of many MCs.

He she may be right. But this diagnosis needs to be confirmed by a Psychiatrist and a treatment regemin designed and put into practice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

kivadbd1 said:


> I do respect her.. after all this I feel that I am the lucky one... I think some of it is that she did not want to blow up the entire 18 years for this. Not to say that she was not super pissed... and asks me a ton of questions. She knows I am truly sorry... but I think from here on out she will be looking for clues... I asked her if she trusts me and she said yes... It's as if she looks at me and says.... stupid man.... and some days she wants to know why I wanted sex with another person... I just told her it was exciting and I was being foolish... I mean it's not easy being in this spot... at least she did not leave...I think some of it is also that fact that she wanted to 'WIN' over the OW winning... if that makes any sense


I can get this. My wife was stunned by my choice of OW for my RA. 

Mywife is pretty and trim, OW was large and not exactly pretty.

They were friends which made the situation worse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

kivadbd1 said:


> I do respect her.. after all this I feel that I am the lucky one... I think some of it is that she did not want to blow up the entire 18 years for this. Not to say that she was not super pissed... and asks me a ton of questions. She knows I am truly sorry... but I think from here on out she will be looking for clues... I asked her if she trusts me and she said yes... It's as if she looks at me and says.... stupid man.... *and some days she wants to know why I wanted sex with another person... I just told her it was exciting and I was being foolish... * I mean it's not easy being in this spot... at least she did not leave...I think some of it is also that fact that she wanted to 'WIN' over the OW winning... if that makes any sense


Back in your first post in this thread you said you had an EA with the OW. I hope that was just a typo here but I strongly suspect that it isn't and you had a PA.

One of the many things you have to do is to figure out WHY you had a physical affair. Of course it was exciting. So is standing on a window ledge 50 stories above the street.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

brooklynAnn said:


> You see, I just shared this experience with my SIL. She is in your wife's shoe. She does not care about winning over the OW. She just wants to hold on to the man she loves and the life the two of you created.
> 
> You are having the same reaction as my BIL, its an ego booster to know two women are fighting for you. Be honest, you like that feeling.
> 
> ...


Listen to this. Brooklyn advice is good advice!


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Aren't you the one who wanted an open marriage?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cgiles (Dec 10, 2014)

read this : Understanding Your Loyal Spouse | AFFAIRCARE


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

Hey Kiva, now we know why you were asking about open marriages. You know your wife was not going to go for that crap. I hope you have stop all contact with the OW. We women do not like sharing our mate. You are one lucky man, that she took you back. 

Boy are you going to be eating S**t for a while and with her bestie too...

Be good. No open marriage in your future.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

It sounds like you would like out of the marriage, but don't have the courage to leave. So, you do something that will force her to make the decision for you - open marriage demand, cheating.

There are lots of reasons for wanting out. Maybe you feel the famous 'love but not in love,' or maybe you want some 'variety' after raising your family, or maybe you've 'grown apart.'

I know it's maddening when your low self-esteem makes you seek out people who aren't as good as your spouse, and then your spouse proves her superiority by being noble. It's a true quandary.

If you want out, though, you should man up and do it. Be honest. If you don't want out, then you need to do the work to get your head straight so that you can be a decent husband to your wife.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

kivadbd1 said:


> I do respect her.. after all this I feel that I am the lucky one... I think some of it is that she did not want to blow up the entire 18 years for this. Not to say that she was not super pissed... and asks me a ton of questions. She knows I am truly sorry... but I think from here on out she will be looking for clues... I asked her if she trusts me and she said yes... It's as if she looks at me and says.... stupid man.... and some days she wants to know why I wanted sex with another person... I just told her it was exciting and I was being foolish... I mean it's not easy being in this spot... at least she did not leave...I think some of it is also that fact that she wanted to 'WIN' over the OW winning... if that makes any sense


You are minimising what you did so early on too, you are not remorseful. If you caught your wife banging someone else would it be ok if she said sorry hun I was just 'foolish'? 

Evidence of your minimisation:
1. she didn't want to blow up the entire 18 years for this ( you are making what you did sound insignificant, if she did it to you, would it be so minor?)
2. Not to say she was not super pissed ( one is super pissed when one gets a flat tire, or is late for an appointment because of some other person's incompetence). How do your know your wife is not showing a brave front while you have totally broken her heart, or she looks at you in disbelief because it still hasn't sunk in what you did, she is in denial?)
3. It was exciting and I was being foolish, (really, that is what a teenage son tells his mum when he sneaks a cigarette or beer from the Dad's supply) not when a grown man decides to engage in a relationship outside his 18 year marriage! 
4. I mean it is not easy being in this spot (wow you are psychopath, it still is all about you and how you feel, blah blah blah, poor you , the victim, you still have no empathy for your wife)
5. Your wife wanted to 'win' over the OW (FFS (and I do not swear) you are so full of ego and sxxx, it is still all about you, maybe your poor wife wanted to save her marriage for the kids, etc, although I cannot understand why, I hope she eventually kicks you out, you do not deserve her at all.

You are a POS tbh, you have managed to make this all about you, no empathy, no remorse at all for what you have done. Your wife is a saint to stay with you. 

If you cannot see that what you have done is even wrong, hurt your wife, etc. then do her a favour and ask for a divorce, she doesn't deserve this at all. :surprise:


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

MATT these two are friends as well.... and my wife is far more attractive than OW..... I didn't mean that she wanted to "win" but that she felt hey he messed up , but so did she... why ruin my life ... if we can work it out... in a strange way our communication is better than before.


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

Open Marriage not really, just some spice.... I don't know... my head is f*cked up right now


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

Yes I know the open marriage thing was stupid......


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

I am very remorseful, I was going and saying everything I could/can up to the point she said I was smothering her. I had to realize I have a choice, stay with a woman who loves me, or leave ....... I know I was wrong ... I know I hurt her feelings... and I know she does not trust me... I tell her everywhere I am at every minute of the day. 

I try to make her days easier, I don't kiss her butt, she does not want that.... I listen.... something I never did before... I would listen to her only to try and solve her problem... I learned that she does not want me to solve her problem, she just wants me to listen.


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

aine said:


> You are minimising what you did so early on too, you are not remorseful. If you caught your wife banging someone else would it be ok if she said sorry hun I was just 'foolish'?
> 
> Evidence of your minimisation:
> 1. she didn't want to blow up the entire 18 years for this ( you are making what you did sound insignificant, if she did it to you, would it be so minor?)
> ...


I'm not sure this was cheating, it was EA at best no PA.... and mostly talking... but we did make an effort t hide it from her ... I know she has a right to be pissed off... I would be if she had a PA... but I know she has talked to men in the past... women are complex creatures.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Well you did say directly that you wanted a f-ck buddy, but since you didn't want out you still wanted to hold onto your wife. Perhaps what changed your mind was the realization that your wife will f-ck other men, so you imagined you'd get some side fun but wife would be at home waiting for you. Unless she joined in for your pleasure, remember?

Please stop minimizing your EA with another woman, if it has to be hidden it's bullsh!t and you know it. Would you be ok with her having the same type of relationship with other men? Clearly not according to you.

If you wife was here I'd tell her to get rid of you. I'd suspect it's only a matter of time until you "make a mistake" again. I hope I'm wrong about that.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

kivadbd1 said:


> I had a EA with wife's friend she knows about it.... we are in MC.... it's a long mess of a story and I guess D-Day was 5 months ago... I cannot believe she did not leave ... I think if she did this I would have left... is that typical , the female stays more often and the male leaves?


You are correct that "you think" you would leave. That's the point though isn't it. Credibility of how we'd deal with something is created when we have to deal with it. It's likely that she believed she would leave if you cheated before the fact as well.

I'm sure statistical data would show if one gender is more or less willing to attempt reconciliation.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

Kiva, EAs is cheating. Anytime you are taking time, energy, emotions that belongs to your wife and marriage away and giving it to someone else you are stealing. You got involved with the OW, trying to hide things from your wife. 
What do you call that? I don't think you are taking full responsibility for your actions. You are still hiding and minimizing your actions.

About the OW, what kind of person does this to her best friend? She could not be that great because she has no morals and boundaries. So thats what you wanted. 

You are very lucky your wife wants to still be with you. Keep working on it. Stop minimizing what you did and own up to your wrong doings.
Because if you don't, then, sooner or later, it gonna happen again.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

brooklynAnn said:


> *...Or, she is thinking about family, kids and finances.*


Bingo... Tell him what he's won Johnny.

A pissed off room mate for the rest of your marriage.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Kivadbd1

Just based of your posts in this thread I'm going to give you my opinion of what I see. Take it for what it's worth and do what you want with this. You had an EA with your wife's supposed best friend. If that's not good enough you wanted an open marriage for spicing things up. What is your view on intimacy? Why just give yourself away for a short period of feeling good? Are your morals that lacking?

If you haven't hurt your wife bad enough, you continue to inflict more damage. You question if you really had an affair. You took away her best friend, possible support for her. Then you show no remorse for your actions. You say you have hurt her, correction, you have destroyed and crushed her for being "foolish" in your words. I won't even start on the I wanted to have sex with someone else. Do you even know how much that hurt her?

So I see you have no respect for your wife, marriage, or yourself. You have destroyed your wife and a friendship she had for your selfish desires. You have zero remorse much less regret, and cannot own your actions. Your behavior is of intentionally inflicting pain on a woman who loves you. Many people here would love to have what you have, but you discard it for your own selfishness. 

Then you say your wife wanted to "win" you away from the other woman. It's more along the lines of being in a competition that she never entered. She already "won" you when she said yes to marrying you. She even made vows to you and upheld them! I'm questioning what she "won", because I see nothing worth "winning".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

I know the EA was wrong.... if I was not happy with marriage I should have told my wife. In a crazy way I was punishing her by having the EA with her friend. I know that's sick, but I'm being honest. I know now that I have some personal demons. But the wife is not this glowing beacon of bliss at times either. I do not think she has ever cheated on me , but she might have I don't know. 

As far as OW I did not have a PA..... and I have ceased all contact since the day wife found out. 

It would be nice if I could get some concrete advice... instead of how bad I am

I mean for the ladies out there, where do I go from here?

Ok I admit it, I love her, I'm crazy about her, but now after the EA I am afraid she will use this against me, or I will make myself vulnerable...


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

We can't give you advise because you are not sorry. You said a few times yeah I hurt her.....but she's not perfect. I know I crushed her.....but......

You are not sorry you will do it again. If you ever really loved your wife divorce her she deserves way way better than you.

You want us to help you fool your wife into thinking you are sorry and won't do it again.....but you will so no advice from me other than to leave your wife because she deserves better than you.


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

I love her but I'm afraid she will use the ea against me.......again everything you type is about you. All we here is me me me help me fool my wife me me me.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Well for one thing stop making excuses as to why it wasn't that bad and thus you shouldn't need to be accountable for it. As for your wife "using it against you" that's something you'll have to suck up as she heals from this. 

And stop trying to downplay what you did by theorizing that your wife MIGHT have cheated too unless you have actual evidence of it. 

Stop dodging full responsibility. Yeah I know what I did was bad BUT.....its not so bad, she might have cheated, I don't want it thrown in my face, blah blah blah. All responses from a guy who doesn't take full responsibility and isn't willing to face consequences. 

Ironic that someone who admits he did it to hurt his wife now doesn't think he should have to hurt by actually facing consequences. Not very good partner material.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

kivadbd1 said:


> I know the EA was wrong.... if I was not happy with marriage I should have told my wife. In a crazy way I was punishing her by having the EA with her friend. I know that's sick, but I'm being honest. I know now that I have some personal demons. But the wife is not this glowing beacon of bliss at times either. I do not think she has ever cheated on me , but she might have I don't know.
> 
> As far as OW I did not have a PA..... and I have ceased all contact since the day wife found out.
> 
> ...




First, I know your wife isn't perfect, nobody is including you. The best way to get a little rise out of me is to blame shift as that is what this is. You don't need advice on how to blame shift you are excelling at it on your own. 

You just don't get it, nor do I have confidence you will, and against my better judgement ill try to point something out to you. Look deep within yourself, find the empathy you should have for your wife. Find the apologies she is owed, find that humiliation to beg for mercy. You screwed up huge, yet blame her, accuse her of cheating which is on page three of the cheaters script. Ask for forgiveness, show your wife with actions you are worth her love, show her you respect her, love her more then yourself for once.

Get that done and I'll offer more advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

I had to google empathy.... I cannot tell that it destroyed her.... but I will take your word for it... I try to put myself in her shoes... and when I do I would have likely left...I can see why she wants to know where I am at all the time, and what I am doing.... in her head if she thinks I am gone too long , say I'm at the store for too long.... she will say, "did you have a problem at the store" you normally get in and get out and do not browse" so I know she is thinking, is he doing something ?

If I text a person from work and laugh, she wants to know who I am texting and if I am talking to more women than just her friend. She wants to know if when I was traveling for business if I had ONS..... I tell her I have never cheated until now.... 

I am selfish, it's all about me and what I want and how I feel ... I wanted to keep my family and wife and also play around... I think that called cake eating.... but when I think of her with someone else, it infuriates the **** out of me..... she has really spoiled me for years.... and she continues to do it. I do love her and I want to stay married... but I do not think I have ever experienced love on the level that you guys are talking about. either giving it or feeling it... I am not saying that she does not love me... she leaves for work earlier than I do and kisses me goodbye every morning... that is my clue to get up... BUT I think she does that so she can have the bathroom to herself... ( JK) 

I mean its not like we have always been this way... I never cheated until now.... there were years of happiness, raising children, vacation, homes, cars etc... I think maybe I'm at a point 47 , where I am disappointed with what I have accomplished and feeling that my best days are over.... 


I have told her there is no one else, that I do not want to leave, I text her, I talk to her, I listen to her, I try to show her I love her. I tell her how great she looks, she did say I have to stop f**cking her and start making love to her... that hurt me... because I knew then she was hurting. 


But doesn't everyone look at a stranger and think man , attractive, I would do that in a minute... and then the thought leaves your head... ?


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

kivadbd1 said:


> I am selfish, *it's all about me* and what I want and how I feel ... I wanted to keep my family and wife *and also play around... *I think that called cake eating.... but when I think of her with someone else, it infuriates the **** out of me.....
> 
> But doesn't everyone look at a stranger and think man , attractive, I would do that in a minute... and then the thought leaves your head... ?




This thread is really making my head hurt.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

kivadbd1 said:


> I had to google empathy.... I cannot tell that it destroyed her.... but I will take your word for it... I try to put myself in her shoes... and when I do I would have likely left...I can see why she wants to know where I am at all the time, and what I am doing.... in her head if she thinks I am gone too long , say I'm at the store for too long.... she will say, "did you have a problem at the store" you normally get in and get out and do not browse" so I know she is thinking, is he doing something ?
> 
> If I text a person from work and laugh, she wants to know who I am texting and if I am talking to more women than just her friend. She wants to know if when I was traveling for business if I had ONS..... I tell her I have never cheated until now....
> 
> ...




Kivadbd1

Truthfully I don't feel your marriage was so bad, and yet you cheated, with your wife's best friend. What were you trying to punish her for? Why do you think she cheated?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

terrence4159 said:


> I love her but I'm afraid she will use the ea against me.......again everything you type is about you. All we here is me me me help me fool my wife me me me.


Actually K you were up front and told us that one of your counselors said you were a psychopath and your wife a placatory. This is the reason why you find it difficult to identify with your wife and what she may be going through as psychopaths feel no empathy, remorse or guilt for their actions generally. That is just the way you are. I guess your wife knows you best and what you are capable of and not capable of.

It is difficult for us to 'advise' you as any advice would be based on the premise that you were truly remorseful for what you have done. It is clear from your posts that you have not reached that stage and may never. Sometimes one has to endure personal pain

My guess is that your wife already knows your capability in this area, has decided to carry the emotional load (as she has probably being doing all this time anyway), brush it aside and move on.

Nevertheless, you should be worried about what she will do, as a woman never forgets these things and unless you do all to make it up to her, then she may just be biding her time till the kids leave.

BTW are you Asian? I ask because if you are , culture plays a big role too.


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

He said I have psychopathic tendencies. I am remorseful. I wish I had not hurt my wife....of course I feel guilt, I'm on here posting about it, going to see IC and MC.....

She might be biding her time until the kids are gone......I hope not.... I love her... but if she does leave I cannot stop her . I know I was wrong but does a short term EA equate to D


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

kivadbd1 said:


> He said I have psychopathic tendencies. I am remorseful. I wish I had not hurt my wife....of course I feel guilt, I'm on here posting about it, going to see IC and MC.....
> 
> She might be biding her time until the kids are gone......I hope not.... I love her... but if she does leave I cannot stop her . I know I was wrong but does a short term EA equate to D




Each person is different, some have zero tolerance towards infidelity and some don't. What you said though equates to you think the EA was nothing, sort of matter of fact. Maybe My perspective of what you say is wrong but you have no empathy or remorse by saying "does a short term EA equate to divorce"? In your case I would say yes, but that's because I don't think you understand how devastating your actions really were.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

I am not trying to down play the EA or dismiss it... but i do not feel it is as damaging as a PA .... or a long term affair, or multiple affairs...


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## dignityhonorpride (Jan 2, 2014)

kivadbd1 said:


> I am not trying to down play the EA or dismiss it... but i do not feel it is as damaging as a PA .... or a long term affair, or multiple affairs...


But that's not for you to decide. She is the one who was betrayed, who has to struggle with this for the rest of the marriage. For perspective, I am also a betrayed wife. My husband had several brief PAs. We are reconciling. If he had had even one EA, even if it lasted only two weeks, I'd probably have to divorce him. Everyone has different limits, boundaries, perspectives, etc. You can't predict or control the future. You just have to do the best you can with each day you are given. You may want to order the book "How to Help Your Spouse Recover From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful." it's very short and very helpful - for both you and your betrayed wife.


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

So you are saying that there is no degree of sin... so I was to catch her talking to a person man or women and she was sharing information about our marriage ( I know she does by the way) that could be construed as infidelity as well.....

So for you, the EA is worse than the PA... so there are varying degrees based on how the betrayed sees it.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

One good measure is how upset you'd be if your wife did the same thing, and my your own admission you'd be very upset. So that means you're full of poppyc0ck that it's not a big deal. You just don't want to have to be accountable. 

If you could honestly say it wouldn't me a big deal of your wife did it you might have an argument.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

It sounds like you are restless and unhappy in your life, so you decided to kill two birds with one stone by having an affair - you could both punish your wife for your unhappiness, and get a little 'spice,' as you call it.

What I get from your posts is that you are very self-absorbed. You think your wife should leave you because you would leave her if the shoe were on the other foot. You actually sound like you've lost respect for her for trying to work it out. You are projecting your own feelings onto your wife. Since you do this, you are not capable of feeling her pain.

To answer your question, people stay for many reasons. I would like to think that I wouldn't stay with a man with your attitude and behavior, but we never know until we are in the situation.

You've destroyed the trust that your wife had for you. This is clear from both your behavior and hers. You've really hurt her. I don't know if you're a psychopath, but you certainly sound like someone with a narcissistic personality.

Instead of projecting your own feelings and understanding onto your wife, which only feeds the self-absorption, look only at yourself and what you have done. Look at your own humanity.

You made vows to someone who has had your children and has stayed with you and supported you. She is flawed like the rest of us, but she has kept her vows. You have broken your vows. You have broken the heart of the woman you say you love. You have cheated and lied and now you are blameshifting and minimizing. In general, you have not honored your wife, your marriage, or your family.

What does all this say about the man you think you should be? This, to me, is the question, not whether her reaction to your cheating is the 'right' one. You get low marks for humanity with what you have done. You should want to be a better man for yourself. Your wife is giving you the opportunity to do this work within the bounds of the family that you love. You should be grateful, not questioning her motives.


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## always_hopefull (Aug 11, 2011)

kivadbd1 said:


> Yes I know the open marriage thing was stupid......


Did you ask for anopen marriage before or after your affair was exposed?


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

I did not ask for an open marriage, just a stupid thought... I would not tolerate a PA from her, if she had an EA I would want to know why and how we could fix it.... 

In therapy they also ask why I had the EA.... They also want to know what was wrong in the marriage . I am not blame shifting or blaming my wife, but if the marriage had been better in the first place maybe I would not be here... it takes two make it right and two to make it wrong. 

I could have definitely handled it better. I should have talked to her , or had MC prior to the EA.... The EA just happened over time.... I did not set out for it to happen, but I did not prevent it either.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

kivadbd1 said:


> it takes two make it right and two to make it wrong.


I agree that it takes two to make it right, but one partner can certainly make it wrong all on his/her own. There are plenty of good people, working hard and honorably at their marriages & their spouses dishonor them. This is a character issue with the offending spouse, in my opinion. (Of course, you could say that what the blameless spouse actually contributed to the mess was picking the wrong person in the first place...)


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

Well what I mean is that while I am to blame for the EA, I am not 100% to blame for all the ****ty times in the marriage... it seems that all the responses are that I am 100% to blame and that's not true.

I did not get married to make my wife happy at any cost and to do anything and everything she wants. it's a partnership.... I do not feel that husbands and wives are responsible for making each other happy... that is a personal issue and one needs to make ones self happy. 

Now that does not mean that I want try to make her happy, as a loving husband and provider...

BUT as the MC says, when we start peeling back the layers, we will find the root cause of the EA .... I feel that most of the time when there is cheating ( not serial cheating) there are underlying issues that both are to blame for .... 

You guys act like she has not done anything wrong... she will get in a funk through no fault of mine and then take it oout on me by ignoring me, or really just being a *****


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Those things that she does still do not lead to your cheating. They are not causal factors. There are so, so many ways that you could respond to the issues in your marriage that don't include infidelity, the infliction of horrible pain on your spouse.

Yes, you both own the problems in your marriage, but you 100% own the choice to cheat. Sorry, but I doubt you will find anyone here or at any of the other infidelity sites that will support you in your blameshifting.


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

how do you know that it crushed her?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Why do you think that it didn't?


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

She was upset at first... and the OW is still her friend. The whole thing is really not going anywhere.... I think you are right I cannot see this going much further once the children are gone...

some days are fine some days she is a 100% Beauuuch she's on cymbalta

I think my expectations are too high....... 

She has been a ***** for the past week... since daughter had a baby


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

kivadbd1 said:


> She was upset at first... and the OW is still her friend. The whole thing is really not going anywhere.... I think you are right I cannot see this going much further once the children are gone...
> 
> some days are fine some days she is a 100% Beauuuch she's on cymbalta


She's a B because she is on Cymbalta?
Have you ever stopped to think she is depressed/has anxiety etc because she is married to a man who doesn't give a s*** and puts himself first? 
You and your wife need to get a MC, thrash out your issues and see if you can make it work. Believe me, you could end the marriage but you will have exactly the same problems in the next relationship. 

Instead of going around in circles, take charge, suggest MC and go and work your guts out at it, then see what happens. Maybe your wife is expecting a grand gesture from you instead of your stalling and blame shifting. Your wife sounds like a good woman, do something about it.


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

Well lets see everything was going pretty well last week I was trying very hard and she was receptive... then out of no where shes freaking *****... I asked here where she was and she said " since when do you care where I'm at.... total *****... I act like I care and she says this...

Said she was going to the mall to look for baby clothes, yet came home with nothing? So I ask her what's wrong and she says I just don't feel good.... I'm trying she is giving me ****.... I dont mind trying , but if she keeps rejecting and *****ing etc... then I cannot do anything else..... 

Oh I know suggest another book for me to read.....


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## whiteviper (Aug 8, 2015)

This thread is like a mirror to my behavior when i was in the middle of my EA, only i didn't blame my wife like you. 
Dday, she took me back, i stopped my EA but very unremorseful. Months later she had her affair and when i found out she just copied all my lines that i used to her. Lying coward, not my fault i cheated you're such a bad spouse anyway. That was when i realized wow, what a cr4ppy attitude. You have empathy problem, clearly. NPD highly possible to, reeks all over your posts. I don't think you'll understand what's been happening to your wife unless it happen to you. So i don't have any advice. It's difficult to give advice one if you're not even receptive. 4 pages and you've always been defensive. Your posts are full of blameshifting, but but but. 

What kind of advice are you looking for ? Or are you just looking for affirmation ?


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

I'm not sure what I'm looking for , some days I want to fix the marriage and some days I want leave as fast as I can . Apparently I Have NPD . So I am not capable of feeling What she is feeling
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

kivadbd1 said:


> I'm not sure what I'm looking for , some days I want to fix the marriage and some days I want leave as fast as I can . Apparently I Have NPD . So I am not capable of feeling What she is feeling
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your wife will be up one day and down the next and if you were interested in making it work you would suck it up, you and only you got into this mess. Maybe you need to feel the pain of your wife betraying you then you'll be less flippant and less self centred. No one is going to tell you on this site that you EA was your wife's fault.


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

I am not saying my EA was her fault... you really do not know all the facts... and in a 20 year marriage there is so much I cannot express on a board. 
Even through the EA I loved her.... I do not think she loves me, I think she stays for the kids and for her own preservation. 

She will act like she does, and she will pretend to get what she wants.... you do not see this side of her you So while I she this side of her, I am told to cherish her and women want to feelthis or that... 

I have felt neglected for many many years....


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

Locke.Stratos said:


> How do you know that it didn't? Why wouldn't it crush her? What you did would be painful to any spouse.
> 
> I feel it does not bother her all that much.....
> 
> ...


again I do care about her but I am getting to the point that it's just too much aggravation. I also do not want to lose all I have worked for.


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

we are in MC and in fact we go tomorrow afternoon should be fun.


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## IDsrvBetr (Jul 29, 2015)

Been following this thread for a few days wanting to say something but not some long-winded diatribe. 

K, I don't think you understand the magnitude of damage done by the EA. i don't think you can understand it unless you have been in your wife's shoes. The emotional betrayal to me is sooo much worse than anything a PA could have done. PA is an act that, once completed, is done, over with. An EA involves your STATE OF MIND. It is much worse than anything physical. I'm sure your wife's mind just races at times wondering exactly what horrible lies you told the OW about her to get her on your side. You have destroyed your wife mentally and emotionally with YOUR poor choices and you come on here implying you are looking for help and answers but the whole thread is about you defending your actions and shifting part of, if not all of the blame on your wife and your marriage.

If you aren't truly remorseful and own up to YOUR conscious choices and actions then you are a lost cause. No matter how things were in the rest of your marriage, there is NO excuse for what you did and nothing she did MADE you do that. Unless you can grasp that concept nothing else matters.


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

So now I spend the rest of my life kissing her ass? Showering her with gifts and proving to her that I love her... and what am I supposed to get in return? 


should it not be a two way street?


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

No matter how things were in the rest of your marriage, there is NO excuse for what you did and nothing she did MADE you do that. oh but she had a big part in it.... cant keep her mouth shut....


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## always_hopefull (Aug 11, 2011)

kivadbd1 said:


> Well what I mean is that while I am to blame for the EA, I am not 100% to blame for all the ****ty times in the marriage... it seems that all the responses are that I am 100% to blame and that's not true.
> 
> I did not get married to make my wife happy at any cost and to do anything and everything she wants. it's a partnership.... I do not feel that husbands and wives are responsible for making each other happy... that is a personal issue and one needs to make ones self happy.
> 
> ...


Did you ever think that maybe your wife sensed you were messing around and you were at fault for her moodiness? I myself am a BS, I was abused physically, mentally and emotionally, but I never cheated because I CHOSE NOT TO, unlike you who chose to step out. The other thing my EX used to say was he wasn't responsible for my happiness, true, but he was definitely responsible for my unhappiness when he was abusing and cheating on me . I'm sorry your not liking the responses here, but the reality is you made the decision to cheat and therefore it's all on you. As long as you keep saying your wife is responsible for your decision to cheat she can never fully reconcile, because your not accepting the blame, therefore the consequences. 

You are correct in stating it takes two to cause the problem, which would be you an the OW!!! However, fixing what you two broke is on you, only you, not your wife.

Eta, No matter how bad you had it in your marriage, your wife has it worse, she's the one who married the cheater.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@kivadbd1,

This is likely to be the one and only time that I use my valuable time to reply to you, so rather than snapping back at me with some defensive remark, I'd like to request that you take some time to READ what I write, and then takes some time to THINK about what I write. Actually ask yourself something like: "Could this be true?" before you just react.

I also was a Disloyal Spouse. I had an internet affair--so it was not PA but we did do sexting. I bring this up because I think part of your defensiveness is that to you it feels like people are Loyal Spouses blaming you and telling you that you were wrong. As a FORMERLY Disloyal Spouse, I'm telling you that right now the way you view your marriage is 100% bass ackward. 

Right now, based on the way you write and speak (and I'm guessing, the way you think) you view your marriage and your spouse essentially from the view of "What's In It For Me?" as if your marriage is all about meeting YOUR needs and making YOU happy. It sounds like your view of your spouse is very similar: that she is there as a means of meeting YOUR needs and making her responsible for your happiness. Do you notice the similarity there? Everything is based on YOU. Now I'm not saying a person shouldn't be "self-aware" or "self-interested" but as it regards marriage, viewing it from a self-center is exactly backward. 

Marriage means that you look at yourself and you make a promise to spend your whole life getting to know YOUR SPOUSE and meeting HER needs and acting in a way that is loving toward HER. That means you get to know her intimately--emotionally, mentally, physically--and based on knowing her that well and spending your time investing in HER, that you learn what HER needs are and then learn the ways she likes to have her needs met! That you study her and find out what her personality is, and what means "I love you" TO HER. See how the focus is not focused on your belly-button but on being the type of man who will honor his promise and focus on HER? 

Now again, I'm not saying you should be a servant or beta--the truth is that she also stood up before family, friends and God and promised to spend her time investing in you and learning your needs too. This is where people get the idea that marriage is a two-way street, because HE meets HER needs and SHE meets HIS needs and both promise to focus on the other rather than selfishly looking at themselves! 

And yet I'm fairly positive that at this point your head will say: "YEAH BUT SHE didn't hold up her end of the bargain! She didn't meet MY needs! She <insert excuse here>...."

@kivadbd1, the reason we say here on TAM that those are excuses and not "reasons" is because cheating of any kind is like murder--THERE IS NO ACCEPTABLE REASON FOR IT. None. If she was not meeting your needs, the acceptable thing to do is to first check yourself and see if maybe you got lazy meeting hers. If you didn't, the next acceptable thing to do is to have a talk with her at a time that is not emotionally charged and request what you'd like her to do (she is free to agree or disagree and offer an alternative she would be willing to do). The next acceptable thing to do is to have a firmer talk that is not a threat (in an attempt to make her do what you want) but is stating to her clearly, out loud, that her refusal to meet your needs is harming you and harming the marriage, and that you consider it to be breaking a vow--that she is completely free to make her choice, but you will not continue in a marriage that does not include <XYZ> and that if she chooses to <XYZ> the consequence of that choice is losing the marriage, you, and the benefits of you. The final acceptable thing to do is to separate--then file for divorce. 

The fact that you chose to commit adultery is 100% ALL ON YOU. Not one iota of that choice is on her, because as adults all of us are personally responsible for our own choices. You had plenty of moral options you could have chosen, and instead you chose to act in an immoral way. True repentance not only means stopping the affair, but also a 180 degree, complete U-turn change in your heart and how you look and feel about marriage and your spouse. It means actually see that indeed it was YOU ... not them. Did her behavior contribute toward making an environment in which you chose to be unhappy and look elsewhere? Maybe a little--life doesn't happen in a vacuum-- but did she "make" you cheat through her neglect? HELL NO!!! I repeat HELL. NO. 

So when you do truly repent, it's not a matter of spending the rest of your life "kiss her @ss" but rather being willing to spend the rest of your life proving to your Loyal Spouse that they were right to take the risk on you. It's not a matter of letting your spouse hold it over our head forever either--at some point the Loyal Spouse has to agree to put the weapon of "you had an affair!" down and release their right to recompense because that's what forgive means! But to me, as someone who is FORMERLY Disloyal, I realize that my Dear Hubby had to feel safe and heal from the hurt I caused him before he felt safe enough to put his weapon down! 

Envision it this way: you were the one with the sword carving up her heart, then she FOUND OUT about the sword and picked up her own dagger to defend herself, and you said: "Oh sorry! Sorry" and suddenly you just want her to put down her dagger without ever showing her that you are not going to attack her again and without acting in any way that is safe and helping her (like bandaging her wounds). You expect your "Oh sorry, I won't do that again" to be enough even though those are only words and you act exactly like you did before the sword attack--you expect her to "just trust you" and you just ran her through with a sword!

So what we are saying to you is this: 

FIRST see the sword in YOUR hand, have the inner courage to take personal responsibility and admit it was you...and not her. 

SECOND, put your sword down and bandage her wounds.

THIRD, change the way that you act and think. Don't act and think like you did right before the sword attack or she'll expect another sword attack. 

FOURTH, you broke the trust, so by acting and thinking about your marriage and spouse in an entirely new, different way, you take the time to slowly rebuild trust--not by forcing her to "just trust you" but by actually taking the time to ACT in a trustworthy way!


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

kivadbd1 said:


> So now I spend the rest of my life kissing her ass? Showering her with gifts and proving to her that I love her... and what am I supposed to get in return?
> 
> 
> should it not be a two way street?




This post says it all kivadbd1, you don't love your wife, you don't care for your wife, you have deep resentment for your wife, you are trying to punish your wife, in fact, I wonder if you are even capable of loving someone other then yourself. You say you marriage wasn't good, and you fixed it with an EA with your wife's best friend. Sort of like setting out a salt block and expecting deer to stay away. Now you think you have to kiss your wife's a$$ because you had an EA. Anyone with remorse would work on healing their spouse, not kissing their spouses a$$. If I forget to pick up bread ill kiss my spouses a$$ or go back out, but if I cheated I would do so much more to heal my spouse. You see what you did as nothing, you blame shift to your wife, and quite truthfully you have no idea how clueless you are. If I call you any name or say you are a pathetic excuse for a human being I get banned, so I won't tell you that's what I think. Instead I'll tell you I feel sorry for you, I feel sorry that it must be tragic to go through life without feeling love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Give her an amicable divorce. You will be happier and she will hopefully find someone that she wants to work with on a relationship.

You are too bitter and too far gone to do the heavy lifting required to help her heal.

You are empty. Would some space help?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

kivadbd1 said:


> So now I spend the rest of my life kissing her ass? Showering her with gifts and proving to her that I love her... and what am I supposed to get in return?
> 
> 
> should it not be a two way street?


Yes. That might work!

You *could* try that.

Or you could just try being a good, normal, loving spouse?


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

Afffaircare, thank you for your response. I am thinking about this a lot as I am posting a lot on the site.... If I really did not care for her I would not be looking for help. I am defensive... I do know it was my fault for having the EA with her friend. I knew she would eventually find out. I do not treat her the way you say I should if I loved her... when she is a ***** I am a ***** back.... when she is nice I am nice. but maybe she does not love me either, and we use each other for financial support, and to help each other raise children..

Right now we have an active sex life, she knows if she does not then I will definitely leave her.... but I can tell she does not always want to do this... It's like I have to have sex to love her, while she has to love me to want to have sex.

I have a difficult time letting my wife " in" I saw this online and I feel this way

I’d love to trust my wife to just care for me without needing to control my every thought and action. I’ve found that the less you tell someone about what you need, the less information they have to control you. I know I’m staying inside my shell and I’m probably missing some possible closeness, but I guess I’d just rather be alone than let someone know who I really am. Every time I’ve let a partner really see what really make me happy or sad, she for sure will use that against me later when she want’s something I can’t give her. I can’t risk that potential for emotional blackmail.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

Kiva, file for divorce. End this so that you can go on a make yourself happy. You don't need a mouthy, moody, miserable b****, on your ass every hour of the day. You need your freedom, so you can go explore how you can be happy on your own.

You should keep f**king the OW, your wife deserve that because she is too stupid to keep being friends with her when she knows what is going on. 

You don't need to kiss her ass. She should kiss your ass because you decided to stay with her crazy ass. You broke off your fling, that was making you happy. You sacrifice your happiness for her and she now has the gall to be unhappy and angry. How dare her, after all you did for her. 

F her. Why should you worry about her happinesses. Does she worry abut yours? She did you wrong so many times. She could not make you happy with all of her demands, a moodiness and expecting you to live for her and make her happy. Sleeping with her best friend was the best thing you could have ever done for her. You showed her what a who*e her best friend was and help her got rid of the bit*8.

She should be thanking you. Kissing your feet. Now dump her underserving ass and go live your happy life in fairyland.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

When you actually take the time to write in a thoughtful way, I find what you say to be very sad. You think that opening up to someone who loves you will expose you to emotional blackmail.

This is semantics, in my opinion. What you refer to as blackmail, I think I would consider the normal expectations within a loving, intimate relationship.

It sounds like you want only the effects of marriage that you think will be obviously advantageous to you, but marriage is hard work sometimes and we do many things for our spouses that aren't our first choices. We do them without expectation of return. We have to do these things sometimes because that's what loving someone is.

You can't get close, you say, but then you expect your wife to behave in certain ways. You've decided that your cheating just wasn't a big deal - don't say you don't think this - your posts are clear. 

I think it's tragic that you are so hellbent on ruining your marriage. You show no serious empathy for your wife. You know, the word 'heartbroken' is in the language for a good reason. You have broken your wife's heart with your A.

She sounds like she has enough knowledge of you to understand that you would never really see her pain if she let it all hang out there in front of you everyday. What's the point of showing you her pain? You refuse on principle to get it, so why should she bother? So, you can just go on deluding yourself that you haven't really trespassed so badly.

But infidelity is a betrayal that is like no other. It isn't a misunderstanding or an argument that fades away in a week or so. It's a complete game-changer in a marriage. You have changed the game, but don't want to believe that. You have, though. I think you will be surprised as the weeks and months go by and your wife shows you again and again how important your betrayal is to her. You don't just destroy trust in a relationship and then say, 'never mind.'


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

alte Dame, he is never going to understand what he did. He does not think like a normal person. It's all about him. It's helpless until he wakes up.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

brooklynAnn said:


> alte Dame, he is never going to understand what he did. He does not think like a normal person. It's all about him. It's helpless until he wakes up.


I know, sigh...

The kicker for me is that OP can't and won't empathize. Because of this, he generates certain responses from his W and then blames her.

Poor woman.


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

brooklynAnn said:


> Kiva, file for divorce. End this so that you can go on a make yourself happy. You don't need a mouthy, moody, miserable b****, on your ass every hour of the day. You need your freedom, so you can go explore how you can be happy on your own.
> 
> You should keep f**king the OW, your wife deserve that because she is too stupid to keep being friends with her when she knows what is going on.
> 
> ...


uh, I was talking to her friend... never had a PA.... I would think a lot of people talk to their spouses friends


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

So what do I need to do... what do I need to say... I get it... I hurt her.... I know that... she laid in bed for three days.... I feel terrible about it... I really do.... as much as I can, because I'm damaged due to sexual abuse as child

She asks me weirdo questions... like "do I think of OW when we have sex" Do I miss OW.... am I texting other women besides OW... 

Why do I go to the gym so much.. I got on a health kick prior to EA and shed 50 lbs... she now thinks I did that for OW. I cannot win.....

So what do I do....I take her shopping I take her out on dates, I never mention OW.... I make sure I don't look at any other women.....

I am wearing my wedding ring even though its way to big... I touch her lovingly... I listen to her... 

Why are women so damn emotional....


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

kivadbd1 said:


> So now I spend the rest of my life kissing her ass? Showering her with gifts and proving to her that I love her... and what am I supposed to get in return?
> 
> 
> should it not be a two way street?


No, you dont have to spend the rest of your life kissing her a**, however at the beginning, if you want a successful marriage you have to show her that you really are remorseful and want it to work out. I hear what you mean about neglect, I guess you are not being appreciated as much as you would like, (this happens in long term marriages). You need to address each others needs (hopefully the MC will deal with that) and stop taking each other for granted.

However, the damage of the EA is your baby and you have to take that on board and be selfless, meaning give without expecting anything in return for now. In time your wife will meet you half way and you are slowly grow into a new relationship. The old relationship is dead.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

alte Dame said:


> I know, sigh...
> 
> The kicker for me is that OP can't and won't empathize. Because of this, he generates certain responses from his W and then blames her.
> 
> Poor woman.



He can't help it, it seems, he has psychopathic tendencies, pretty obvious from his responses.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

kivadbd1 said:


> So what do I need to do... what do I need to say... I get it... I hurt her.... I know that... she laid in bed for three days.... I feel terrible about it... I really do.... as much as I can, because I'm damaged due to sexual abuse as child
> 
> She asks me weirdo questions... like "do I think of OW when we have sex" Do I miss OW.... am I texting other women besides OW...
> 
> ...



I hear you, you need IC for yourself, adult victims of child sexual abuse have issues that need to be dealt with in counselling. This is why you cannot let your wife get "in" or see the real you, it is too scary to open up completely.
I think you should have IC before MC because until you yourself have come to terms with your past and see how it is possible to have a fulfilling relationship with another human being, to see that your spouse is flawed and will hurt you, but that doesn't mean she doesn't love you, you will not have a good marriage until you get right first. You should talk to your wife about this.
Victims of child sexual abuse often use drugs, alcohol and sex to plug that deep emptiness inside, so I commend you on not really going down those routes.


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

Oh I used drugs and booze until I was 26... gave it up when I got married...... cold turkey
I'm not blaming abuse on EA.... but through the years I have not been able to be normal and open myself up.... 

I am in IC for this.... doesnt help much... so long ago... and it was a female... so at the time I new it was wrong , but I liked it.... therapist says the abuse stripped away my ability to be intimate. So I equate sex as intimacy....

I was having sex regularly at 12-13 messed up I know so now if I dont have sex 5-7 times a week I almost start withdrawl like a drug

she really knows hw to pick them doesnt she


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

kivadbd1 said:


> So what do I need to do... what do I need to say... I get it... I hurt her.... I know that... she laid in bed for three days.... I feel terrible about it... I really do.... as much as I can, because I'm damaged due to sexual abuse as child
> 
> She asks me weirdo questions... like "do I think of OW when we have sex" Do I miss OW.... am I texting other women besides OW...
> 
> ...




"She laid in bed for three days"!!!! And you ask us how we know she is crushed?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

[begin small threadjack]

Dear Fellow-TAM regulars, 

I would like to ask you a favor. Rather than responding to @kivadbd1 as a typical Disloyal (which is often fairly harsh) I want to ask if you would consider speaking to him as if he HONESTLY DOESN'T KNOW. Here's why:

We, here, have all had the time to see the patterns of what Disloyals say, how Loyals are jello and beg and plead at first--you know, the Cheater's Script and the typical beta (male or female) Loyal. WE have the benefit of a little time under our belt so we know! We see it. We may reply somewhat projecting our own circumstances and feelings and thoughts into his situation, but for the most part the regulars here have enough time under their belt to see the faulty logic and the holes in the thinking--and trust me, when you are in the thick of it you can not see the forest for the trees! The mind is a powerful thing, and when your mind is capable of justifying adultery, you have some SERIOUS denial capabilities!

So I request that rather than calling names, generalizing about the lack of moral character, and just saying: "Good god, man, divorce already" that INSTEAD we take the time to point out "HERE is where there is a flaw in your thinking" .... "See where you said this here and that there?  They can't coexist" ... "Ah so you did ____? Here is what you need to do for _____ result."

The reason I request this is simple. What if we just assumed that for whatever reason, @kivadbd1 just really wasn't taught this? Hey many the dude had a REALLY hard life and has some shyte he needs to do some serious work on before he'll be the kind of husband that's devoted and committed. You know me--I don't believe a tough "past" is a reason for making an immoral choice in the present! But if you weren't taught---how can you do any better?

So I'm asking you to do what I do: pretend it's a kid. Maybe someone really young who had no good, parental model of a stable, loving marriage. Maybe someone who was never taught well about what long-term commitment and marriage even IS! So why not us? Why not teach him?

[/end of threadjack] 
@kivadbd1, I will say this one thing. I was expecting a very defensive, harsh response from you--I'm sure you could tell. I am not happy that these things occurred to you, nor do I think it's justifiable to use past abuse for present bad choices (and I speak from experience)....but if nothing else your reply was thoughtful and piqued my interest. I will reply to what you wrote tomorrow.


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

Hers the sad part I started talking to Ow because I wanted advice on whT to get wife for her birthday. And i We just kept talking and texting and pretty soon we were talking about what I was pissed about in the marriage and wife was telling her what she did not like and the OW started playing us . MC said OW found weakness in marriage and exploited it not blaming other women, but I was not looking for an EA I did not even know what one was when I started talking to her
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

We went therapy , she is mad that I did not come back from a trip to be with her when her daughter had a 10 week premie baby. I asked her if she wanted me to come back and she said no. But she should have said yes . We were spending time together and doing fine, and then she started a new job and daughter had baby which has to stay in hospital for a month. Since this happened she has been distant . Everytime she gets in a fu k she takes it out on me . Like she blames me for her problems . I ask her what is wrong and she just expects me to know. She said she does not want to go to MC and really I don't either , I don't think he is very good . At any rate I do not want to divorce because of my children , but she is acting the same way she was when the EA started . I don't know if she is in a funk or what . I am going to tell her that if she wants to get an attorney and file it will be fine with me . I cannot deal with it any longer .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

we are still together for now


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## kivadbd1 (Jul 31, 2015)

Been spending more time together..... seems to be helping.... no talk of divorce.... I am working on being a better person, to everyone I come in contact with... Not really sure what to make of it.... I dont feel I need love from people.... but it seems my family needs it from me.... since my methods are not working I am trying to change how I think , act, behave , talk, trying to be nice to people, and re assurring her I was wrong and I wont do it again.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Kivadbd1, You seriously need help with your past. Everyone has issues, none of us are perfect but events such as sexual abuse can do alot of damage which has a profound impact on your adult relationships. You probably need professional help. You must become better for yourself and maybe then you will see the positive impact on your family relationships including your marriage.


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