# What did you not know about relationships?



## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

In your youth, what did you not know or what misconceptions did you have about relationships that surprised you as you gained more experience with relationships. Did you overcome it easily, or was it an obstacle. I'm not really calling for a debate on points, but just thinking of things I didn't know when I was young. 

1. I had no idea about the "love languages." I'd never heard of it.

2. I didn't realize there could be such emotional differences between men and women, and that their sex drives could be driven by totally different things. I just thought that most everybody liked sex in general and it would take something huge to kill a sex drive.

3. I had never heard of a walk-away-wife, and I'm sure there are walk-away-men too, but I always thought it took something huge like cheating or physical abuse to cause a divorce. 

I'm sure I have more, but this will get the ball rolling. What are some of yours?


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

My ex-husband/STBX (same person) and I both did not have a good enough grasp/commitment to "'til death to we part." We married too young and I honestly don't even recall feeling, back then, at age 23, that I was fiercely committed to that part of the vow.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I only had two relationships before marriage, so even now, not a lot of experience to draw on. Have actually learned a lot just reading here on TAM.

I did not know that sexless marriage was common before coming to TAM. I had only heard tell of it, no close experience.

Similarly, before TAM, I did not know that some men needed the woman to feel enthusiastic about sex for it to be a good experience for him. My husband expects access, not enthusiasm. 

I always thought of men as strong. But it seems like a lot of men have fragile egos, and don't like to be challenged if it means they will be embarrassed, even if what they are being challenged with is true. Actually, that might get the worst reaction--challenging them with the truth.

I did not know some women feel powerful over men. I have mostly been afraid and avoidant of men in my life. But some women truly dominate men. They often seem to defend and protect them, too.

Interesting topic, southbound!


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

I didn't know that you should pay attention to what a woman does, not what she says.

I didn't know that "ILYBINILWY" meant "I'm cheating on you or about to cheat on you".

I didn't know that the aholes that got laid all the time were just giving women what they actually wanted, not what they said they wanted. (See point 1.)

I didn't know that changing the subject was often a better way to deal with complaints than trying to do something about the topic of the complaint.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Wow. It appears that not many people had things they didn't know. Looking back, I think that was a big part of my problem; there was so much about relationships that I had misconceptions about in my youth.

Aside from 4 people, it appears most everyone else didn't have misconceptions. I've often said there should be a class or some kind of training on relationships when we are young.

So, maybe I should change up the question and ask, where did you get your knowledge of relationships? Did it just come naturally or did someone talk in length with you about them?


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

I learned it from scientific research. For instance, females tend to have a larger emotional , and a bigger right side hemisphere that is useful in learning language and communication. People bond differently because our brains are different, and how we make those connections differ from people to people.

The book on the love language is a way in which some people can learn how their partner form connections.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I suppose we all get it from experience, and listening to and observing the people around us.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Mr.Fisty said:


> I learned it from scientific research. For instance, females tend to have a larger emotional , and a bigger right side hemisphere that is useful in learning language and communication. People bond differently because our brains are different, and how we make those connections differ from people to people.
> 
> The book on the love language is a way in which some people can learn how their partner form connections.


I assume this must have come at a later age though; right? Once you got into a relationship, did you at any point think that what you thought you knew about relationships was not adequate or incorrect?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I had no idea either about 5 Love Languages.

I also thought a man should take care of his wife and make her life easy. I had no idea it was wrong to be "nice" to your wife, that she would lose respect and attraction.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Thor said:


> I had no idea either about 5 Love Languages.
> 
> I also thought a man should take care of his wife and make her life easy. I had no idea it was wrong to be "nice" to your wife, that she would lose respect and attraction.


It is not wrong to be nice to your wife. It is a great idea!

If my husband were _not_ nice to me, I _would_ lose my respect and attraction to him!


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

I had no idea that maintaining a healthy relationship could apparently be so complicated. I haven't found any other relationships in life that requires so much work and attention.

I thought that if two logical, mature people that loved each other got together, things just ran smoothly.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

southbound said:


> I had no idea that maintaining a healthy relationship could apparently be so complicated. I haven't found any other relationships in life that requires so much work and attention.
> 
> I thought that if two logical, mature people that loved each other got together, things just ran smoothly.


Logical and mature can look different to different people, you know?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

southbound said:


> In your youth, what did you not know or what misconceptions did you have about relationships that surprised you as you gained more experience with relationships. Did you overcome it easily, or was it an obstacle. I'm not really calling for a debate on points, but just thinking of things I didn't know when I was young.
> 
> 1. I had no idea about the "love languages." I'd never heard of it.
> 
> ...


Very basically, I thought everyone just talked about what was bothering them with clear examples and made compromises to work through whatever the issues were. I didn't know I had to learn to read the signs and then interpret their meanings before being able to understand. I didn't know that things were too difficult to talk to your spouse about. I guess that is a product of thinking that when a person gets married, they believe it's for life and will work through almost anything to keep it. 



southbound said:


> Wow.  It appears that not many people had things they didn't know. Looking back, I think that was a big part of my problem; there was so much about relationships that I had misconceptions about in my youth.
> 
> Aside from 4 people, it appears most everyone else didn't have misconceptions. I've often said there should be a class or some kind of training on relationships when we are young.
> 
> So, maybe I should change up the question and ask, where did you get your knowledge of relationships? Did it just come naturally or did someone talk in length with you about them?


Basically, I knew nothing. All I thought I knew was worthless. I didn't see this thread and maybe many others didn't either. Also, I believe it shows my weaknesses and there are many. So, it's difficult to post honestly after looking at myself and be so vulnerable. 

I learned many things here. I still have many things to learn, but I don't think I will even know everything. I learned by osmosis from my parents. That was a pretty bad example. They didn't talk much in front of us. They didn't go out. They didn't participate in hobbies. Mum cleaned and dad worked on the more traditionally male duties around the house. Dad went to work and cam home. He rarely missed work. He didn't talk much to me or anyone. We did few things together. I really didn't like him because I looked at him as a punisher and had a lot of fear of him. 

I just winged it for the most part. No one told me anything and I made many many mistakes. Doesn't mean I didn't love or feel love. I just didn't know how to love well, connect what I was doing with a woman feeling love(chores), or think that we weren't in it together. I mean, I got here and realised it's two individuals who do their thing and then do things for their wife or husband separately. I guess I thought most of what two did in marriage was always with consideration of the spouse and then a few things were done separately to just "get away" and relax with some fun hobby or something. 

Sex? Again, I thought, if there was a problem we would just bring it up and talk. I didn't think anything would be done that was so embarrassing that a spouse could not tell me. I figured, if she couldn't tell me, she didn't really want to do it. It was just a fantasy. I don't mean beat me over the head with her words, just sit down and take time to talk. We have the rest of our lives. Take your time and tell me. 

I didn't bullet point anything. I hope this is okay.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

When I was younger, had no clue. I just experimented and did not really have any preconception on how they should operate.

The more I learn, the less idealistic I became on love. For instance, there are some drugs that help inhibit people from forming attachments, making them feel indifference to family and friends. Changing our hormones, will change our behavior and our physical brain.

There is this one woman who lost her amygdala and can no longer feel any emotions, it change her personally and the old her is dead. Even her voice is flat with no change in tone. Needless to say, it affected her other relationships.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> I didn't bullet point anything. I hope this is okay.


Absolutely ok! The things in your post were the type of things I was thinking about. I could relate to a lot of things in your post.


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

As someone that only had one real serious relationship before marriage (not counting the woman I was involved with before the wife, as there was no chance of marriage there - was lots of sex), and as someone that didn't date much:

Being in a relationship is not all it's cracked up to be. I love my kids to Pluto, but their mother, unfortunately, not nearly as much. Just because someone is an adult in real age doesn't mean that they're an adult in maturity. 

Also didn't realize how much a PITA sibling can impact a relationship. I've grown to not being able to stand her sister, and the thought of her makes my blood boil - can't say anything around DW, though, as she knows she's a PITA but is deathly afraid of upsetting her for some reason. 

Like southbound, didn't realize that sex drives could waver, and in DW's case, just collapse several years ago. Wasn't expecting daily sex, but once to twice a week would suffice. Hasn't been much more than five times in the past five years, with no improvement on the horizon.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Now I know that love is not enough. There are many other things that have to considered: compatibility, similar libido, attitudes toward work and family balance, etc. 

And for those who think that being nice made them loose wife's respect. My husband is not that nice of a person, and believe me it is probably a matter of time when we split for good. for now we still trying, as kids are small. So don't think that being jerk will land you a trophy wife.


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## LaundryMan (Mar 17, 2015)

Thanks for bringing this up, OP. I wish I could have found a discussion like this before I was ever in a serious relationship.

I knew pretty much nothing about relationships, having never actually seen one (if you've read my long post on the other forum you know what I'm talking about).

First, I never knew that women like sex, let alone want it, let alone want it enough that they'll break up a marriage over it. I thought the sure-fire way to be a great boyfriend/husband was to kill the libido and do lots of chores. Yeah, that sure worked out great.

I didn't realize that loving someone is work. Being in love with someone doesn't make the relationship run itself, with everything falling into place.

I didn't know kids neither make nor break a relationship, they just make many things harder and some things (e.g., getting out of social engagements you'd rather blow off) easier.

I didn't think it was possible you could be in a relationship and be lonely.

And I guess I didn't know that what one person wants in a relationship is different from what another person wants. What works for one partner will not work for the next, if that relationship fails.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

southbound said:


> Absolutely ok! The things in your post were the type of things I was thinking about. I could relate to a lot of things in your post.


Honestly, after being here so long, I realise the reason for so many difficult break ups is really because, in my opinion, no one has patience. They want what they want right now. They have plenty of options and they aren't afraid to make certain their spouse knows it. Sometimes, that ends up being an affair because it's how some think they can get through to their spouse. They don't really understand that some folks just don't see things the way they do and won't understand the message because they are so out of touch with each other and have such different views.

My attitude concerning lifelong marriage made me look like I didn't care about her. It made me lazy and at times, like I did things from the standpoint of I will decide and that wasn't it at all.

I ask myself every day, "Why did she marry me, when we are so different", "Didn't she know or did she think I was something I'm not", "What led her to believe that and not ask"? I tell you. I just don't get it and never will. My conclusion is, she didn't know herself, or changed drastically. It isn't logical to think we can change someone so fundamentally, if we are not really the same. And, that's why I think past experience does matter greatly. It may not be nice, correct or any of my business, but it will play a huge roll in the longevity of a marriage. How do two figure out if they are right for each other(highly compatible) without trusting each other enough to talk about the "uglies" of their lives? 

I guess the thread struck a nerve with me that I haven't had a chance to talk about. Thank you for letting me release some of the pain.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

I guess i touched on this in my first post, but to say it another way, I didn't realize you could be a "good person" but still drive someone to want to divorce you. I didn't realize you could have so many positive things in the "good column" and still have someone want to get a divorce. That certainly leaves a weird feeling. 




2ntnuf said:


> I guess the thread struck a nerve with me that I haven't had a chance to talk about. Thank you for letting me release some of the pain.


You are welcome. Although I post from time to time, I don't often feel that I'm the one dishing out the help; I'm glad when I can help someone out.


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## SunnyWife (Aug 6, 2014)

There is so much I didn't know. I was married for the first time at age 19 and felt I knew enough. Clearly I was wrong. I didn't even know that he had been abused as a child and this played into our relationship greatly. He did a complete 180 -- the wrong way -- once the wedding band was on the finger. During our honeymoon I could feel that things were already wrong. Once back home things went down hill very fast. He was never home, always away on business trips. I had an affair. Not proud of it by any means. I confessed to him. By age 21 I was going through divorce. This is when I learned so much. I began reading self-help books. My very sheltered Christian upbringing had played into it as well. I had not seen any of the signs and was completely clueless. Oddly enough I did feel something was off right before walking up the aisle but ignored it and chocked it up to nerves. I am the youngest and had seen my siblings get married and my parents were in a good marriage (for the most part) so I figured that everything would work out. I could not have been more wrong. I left my church, got the divorce and lived completely alone in a big city under an unlisted phone number so that my family could not even reach me. 

In this time of my life I grew up the most and learned so much from each relationship I was in. I mostly began to trust my gut instincts. I learned that chasing men never works. I learned that one night stands really suck and the worst is the lack of self-respect from doing this. I learned that becoming my own best friend was the best thing for any relationship. I learned that healing from a divorce is very important and rebound relationships just complicate the healing process. This phase of my life lasted for about 2 years. 

Slowly on I returned to my church but in a very different congregation on the other side of the country. I dated men from my church and then learned that not everyone was OK with me being divorced (that whole 'used goods' feeling). Finally I met the guy I would eventually marry. I made life rough for him at first, not believing much of what he told me since I'd been lied to once too often. He hung in there. I wasn't sure this relationship would last. At one point I went on a vacation that I had booked before we started dating -- I was away from him for 3 weeks. He called me every night and we talked for at least an hour each time, often longer. I realized if we could talk this much there really was something to this relationship. This is when I fell deeply in love with him. We got engaged shortly after I returned from this trip. We'd only been dating 7 months but I was very certain about him like I'd never been for anyone else ever. Never once have I regretted marrying him.

Sorry this is so long... it really struck a chord.


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## Giro flee (Mar 12, 2013)

I had no idea relationships could contain so much compassion, kindness, and acceptance. Seems like I'm on the other side of the fence than most posting here.

My foo was a horrible example of family life. Full of drama, alcoholism, anger, yelling, etc. I didn't want anything to do with men or marriage until I met my husband. Aside from him being a workaholic he might go down as a saint for having the patience to wait for me to heal and become a healthy partner worthy of his efforts.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Giro flee said:


> I had no idea relationships could contain so much compassion, kindness, and acceptance.  Seems like I'm on the other side of the fence than most posting here.
> 
> My foo was a horrible example of family life. Full of drama, alcoholism, anger, yelling, etc. I didn't want anything to do with men or marriage until I met my husband. Aside from him being a workaholic he might go down as a saint for having the patience to wait for me to heal and become a healthy partner worthy of his efforts.


I disagree. You've shown me compassion. Maybe you didn't recognize what you were doing, but I felt it. Isn't that really what it's all about? It's about making someone else feel just a little better without requiring payment.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

LaundryMan said:


> I didn't realize that loving someone is work. Being in love with someone doesn't make the relationship run itself, with everything falling into place.
> 
> I didn't think it was possible you could be in a relationship and be lonely.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

I bought into the romantic nonsense that true love conquers all. The problem is, my idea of "true love" was sexual passion, gazing into one another's eyes over a candlelight dinner, having him sweep me into his arms, blah, blah, blah.

I was one DUMB woman. So what did I do?

Chose two extremely charming men who were brilliant at knowing what to do to lure me in. Was I stupid? Was I naïve? A bit. But I was SELFISH. I loved the flattery, attention, the stuff that made me feel as if the man was making me the center of his universe.

In truth, both husbands were manipulative alcoholics who were good at their game. And I was too sick to see that no man would be right for me until I was right FOR ME.

I'm not anti-relationship. I just know that a man in my life is not what I want or need. I finally have ME in MY life. And that is a peaceful, good place for me to be.

JMO.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

I did not realize my wife's feet would be so cold. When we are in bed, she loves warming them up on my thighs. 22 years in the relationship and it has not changed.

I am really happy with my wife. But if I had analysed relationships around me I probably would have been scared to be in one.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

That is a good point. Most of the marriages I too saw growing up had lots of unhappiness. Dug is very easy to get along with. I have been very lucky.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jld said:


> *Similarly, before TAM, I did not know that some men needed the woman to feel enthusiastic about sex for it to be a good experience for him. My husband expects access, not enthusiasm*.


 So much of what JLD has learned.. is part of my experience.. ha ha.. I guess meeting me was a strange awakening ... my H would not even TOUCH me if I didn't show interest in sex...the emotional entanglement means everything to him.. he is a FEELER...He is one who NEEDS enthusiasm or he'd roll over & wait till I wanted it just as much...

BIG EGO...Not at all...very humble... but sensitive* to my desire*.. VERY MUCH... 

This doesn't bother me at all , I even prefer it - cause I am the exact same way ! 



> *I did not know some women feel powerful over men. I have mostly been afraid and avoidant of men in my life. But some women truly dominate men. They often seem to defend and protect them, too*.


 Jld ...you're talking about me again!!... It's true, I have a stronger / more challenging personality over my Husband... anyone who knows us would say I am the more dominate between us... but it works... we're happy with our dynamics....I CARE very much how he feels and I want to please him- so we're happy together...take this away.. it may not be so good.. - my sensitive side is a plus...

I couldn't change him any more than he could change me , even sexually.. I am naturally more aggressive. What can you do! 

The Power thing.. I feel it can go both ways...if a woman uses her feminine charm/ability to manipulate and harm a man who is really INTO her... it speaks BADLY of her character.. but if she uses it FOR GOOD, knowing she has "a hold" on someone... to enhance their relationship, bringing them closer...through honesty & faithfulness.. it's not a bad thing.. it blesses them both..


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Whatever you are doing is working very well for you, SA. Keep it up!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Well I was one of those weird teenagers who read books on finding the love of your life... the reasons to wait to have sex.... between seeing how my parents screwed up in a # of ways (marrying too young- age 18, she was naive, he was lust blinded, her allowing passion to over ride her MIND after the divorce).... the wheels were always turning.. I knew to be cautious.. never jump... take TIME... build a friendship.. this was the plan.. 

Always a ROMANTIC at







.. yet that cautiousness on the other hand...I think I had a decent handle on what I wanted.. what would NEVER be acceptable to me.. (deal breakers..drinkers , smokers, catch a man in 1 lie, got a bad reputation.. he's OUT!)..... but then maybe I was just lucky.. He walked into my life as earlier as he did. 

My romantic relationship with my husband starting in my teens has been -literally - the greatest thing that's ever happened to me. I have nothing bad to say in relation to him... there were no rude awakenings for me.. 

The only thing I got WRONG was not understanding the antsy nature of the MALE sex drive.. I really did not KNOW I was hurting my husband ...that it emotionally and physically was painful for him to wait *DAYS* to be with me intimately. .. 

I was very stupid here & his being not one to push wasn't getting the message across.... Grandma talked to me about MANY THINGS in regards to what to look for in a man.. but she neglected how to keep him satisfied in this way.. and obviously my books weren't SEXUAL ENOUGH to bring all that home ... shame shame..


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

My mom and my sisters always talked about how much men wanted sex. I figured you had to keep a man satisfied that way.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> The only thing I got WRONG was not understanding the antsy nature of the MALE sex drive.. I really did not KNOW I was hurting my husband ...that it emotionally and physically was painful for him to wait *DAYS* to be with me intimately. ..


My x wife never understood this either. I can't say for sure what was going through her mind, but she certainly didn't look at it as a need for men or the way men felt loved by their wife. She just viewed it as a bonus for me, and if i wanted it very often, then I was just a pig.

She never said it in those words, but that is certainly the way it came across. She viewed her emotional needs as normal needs that anyone should understand, but I was just a pig.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


>


:iagree:

Plus the flip side, I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

southbound said:


> My x wife never understood this either. I can't say for sure what was going through her mind, but she certainly didn't look at it as a need for men or the way men felt loved by their wife. She just viewed it as a bonus for me, and if i wanted it very often, then I was just a pig.
> 
> She never said it in those words, but that is certainly the way it came across. She viewed her emotional needs as normal needs that anyone should understand, but I was just a pig.


My wife said she just thought a man "needed to spurt it out", as a purely physical event. She didn't think men had any emotional aspect with sex.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Thor said:


> *I had no idea either about 5 Love Languages.
> 
> I also thought a man should take care of his wife and make her life easy. I had no idea it was wrong to be "nice" to your wife, that she would lose respect and attraction*.


I bought the love Language book early in our marriage.. I don't think I read the whole thing but I knew back then we were both high in *TIME*.. & the *TOUCH* was there too.. when the babies started coming...I had them in bed with us ..thinking back, I was getting TOUCH from cuddling with them -probably MORE than my Husband !!









My husband had the same idea as you THOR... love your wife, make her life easy.. be good to her.. and really.. this was NEVER a turn off TO ME.. all through our years.. I would thank him for putting up with me. or being so good to me.. I appreciated the way he was....

Too nice sometimes = TOO passive, too catering.. to the point a man leaves some of his authenticity behind...I think what women appreciate is some "Edginess".. a little Bad boy in there too... but yet we also want the man who treats us GOOD...and means it from the heart.. this is a good article taken from the No More Mr Nice Guy Book.... 

Authentegrity



> In No More Mr. Nice Guy, I make reference to Nice Guys being “*Teflon men*.” They believe that if they appear perfect, people will like them. Ironically, perfection (or the appearance of it), makes it difficult for people to connect with you.
> 
> *People are attracted to people’s rough edges. When you keep all of your flaws, warts, and imperfections hidden, people have nothing to connect with.*
> 
> ...





> *Thor said*:* My wife said she just thought a man "needed to spurt it out", as a purely physical event. She didn't think men had any emotional aspect with sex*.


 Is this because of PRIOR experiences then.. did she see this wasn't true of all men... that it was emotional for you?? That not all are the same or treat women the same...

I've always felt the emotional from my H...or I would have been [email protected]# I needed that...

If only we had the ability to trade places with the other & feel each others hormonal make up... or sensitivities in these areas of craving/ longings... Had I felt that FIRE *AS OFTEN* as HE did ..I would have realized how I was hurting him.... OH I felt it too ...after so many days if we got busy/ projects/ kids .....then it would hit me in the middle of the night.. "*I NEED HIM NOW!!!*".... but he probably felt that way *EVERY DAY* back then.... whereas I could go 5 days before my hormones were itching for it , wanting to get lost in that.. 

We screwed up on not purposely trying to arouse each other more so.. the potential was there.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> My husband had the same idea as you THOR... love your wife, make her life easy.. be good to her.. and really.. this was NEVER a turn off TO ME.. all through our years.. I would thank him for putting up with me. or being so good to me.. I appreciated the way he was....


:iagree:

I don't understand this idea of women not liking genuinely good, kind, helpful men. Is everything superficial?

We had our babies in bed with us, too, SA. If anything, _I_ got to the point where I felt neglected by Dug, because his first concern was always for our children. Sometimes I felt like I practically had to scream that I matter, too!

Lol, it's funny how we can all have such different experiences, and still be in warm, loving marriages.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Thor said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Plus the flip side, I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then.


beat me to it. bob seger (from 'against the wind').


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

what did for my summer vacation..........

Oops, wrong subject.

I was a pretty dumb guy. What I didn't know about relationships was to trust your gut more. 

If you think something is wrong, it is.

If you think she's mad at you, she is.

If you think there's infidelity, there is.

If you think she's been playing footsie with so and so, she is.

If you think this relationship will be trouble down the line, then it is. Move on. Respect your self more and just move on.

(you can substitute 'she' for 'he' if you like.)


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

Don't discount the impact that children have on a relationship. Speaking for myself (knowing that others will have totally difference experiences), it actually made our relationship worse. We went from enjoying each others company for the most part to now I can't stand to be around her and look for reasons to get away with the kids. How I never noticed how immature she is before the kids came along is a mystery. Also the way she thinks about my family - before she liked spending time with them. Now that we have the kids, if my mom comes to visit, I have to hear DW ***** about she has to entertain my mom, etc. My mom certainly knows that something is up with her, but won't say anything. 

I honestly thought having kids would strengthen our marriage, but it's made it worse, which is sad (and I'm not absolving myself from any blame, just noting what's going on). If she up and left, I honestly don't think I'd be unhappy about it if that meant that I had the kids.

EDIT - just saw jorgene's post above mine, and agree totally. No infidelity to worry about (although not sure that I would mind anyway), but trust your gut. Not sure it mattered in my case, as most of our issues reared their ugly head after the kids arrived, but still good advice.


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## cons (Aug 13, 2013)

The most important thing I learned was how to "see" and understand the importance of sexual fulfillment is for a man in a relationship.

I used to be of the mindset that sex was just to meet my SO's immediate need for pleasure. But through life experience, I've come to realize how important sex is to an intimate relationship... it is the most effective way for me to express to my husband how important he his to me....how loved he is...that he has value and worth...that he is my hero...

Sure- I could tell him all of these things (which I try to do)...but pairing that up with action makes that message all the more powerful...

...plus, HE is the only one who will receive this type of intimacy from me...which sets him apart from any other man in my life.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

cons said:


> *The most important thing I learned was how to "see" and understand the importance of sexual fulfillment is for a man in a relationship*.
> 
> I used to be of the mindset that sex was just to meet my SO's immediate need for pleasure. But through life experience, I've come to realize how important sex is to an intimate relationship...* it is the most effective way for me to express to my husband how important he his to me....how loved he is...that he has value and worth...that he is my hero...
> 
> ...










...I so resonate with your post [email protected]#

I read this somewhere & saved it..


> Fulfilling our husbands sexually encompasses so much more than the physical act..it is embracing ALL that he is...It speaks our wanting to fully understand him and welcoming the sexual appetite that expresses his masculinity...
> 
> It involves striving with him through weakness & temptation & covering his fears & failures. No magazine, no co-worker, no porn site can be this teammate and confidante for our husbands...This is our place, this is our power...this is our gift.. Unwrap it.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Giro flee said:


> I had no idea relationships could contain so much compassion, kindness, and acceptance. Seems like I'm on the other side of the fence than most posting here.
> 
> My foo was a horrible example of family life. Full of drama, alcoholism, anger, yelling, etc. I didn't want anything to do with men or marriage until I met my husband. Aside from him being a workaholic he might go down as a saint for having the patience to wait for me to heal and become a healthy partner worthy of his efforts.



I'm curious, being that you had a lot of negativity in your youth, did you embrace the kindness and compassion of your husband with open arms and bask in the enjoyment of that great environment?
Was it a great relief to have this new, more stress free environment?

I ask because I work with younger people in my profession that sometimes come from not so great places. Once they are exposed to a great environment, however, they continue to have issues.

For example, I have dealt with people who say they come from an environment where it was chaos and people were rude. I often think it would be a breath of fresh air to go from that to an environment where it's calm and people are nice, but these people often still have behavior issues. I don't fully understand that, but then again, I come from a great childhood.

I'm sure the situations aren't identical, but yours might give me some insight.


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## another shot (Apr 14, 2015)

That marriage is a process not an event that requires ongoing investments and maintenance or it dies. I was amazed to learn this. It seems obvious now but there is no solid training to being a successful spouse


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## Giro flee (Mar 12, 2013)

southbound said:


> I'm curious, being that you had a lot of negativity in your youth, did you embrace the kindness and compassion of your husband with open arms and bask in the enjoyment of that great environment?
> Was it a great relief to have this new, more stress free environment?
> 
> I ask because I work with younger people in my profession that sometimes come from not so great places. Once they are exposed to a great environment, however, they continue to have issues


At the time I thought I was accepting of love, but I was actually very distrustful and waiting for bad things to happen. The tactics I used as a child, perfectionism, overly responsible, never sharing or opening myself up, were definitely not good for marriage. 

As we got further into the marriage problems starting popping up and I started to withdraw out of fear. I let resentment build to unhealthy levels because I was unable to communicate any of my needs and was constantly on the defensive and therefore unable to be a giving spouse.

It took quite a bit of therapy, reading, and a wonderful husband to get me to a mostly healthy place now.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Giro flee said:


> At the time I thought I was accepting of love, but I was actually very distrustful and waiting for bad things to happen. The tactics I used as a child, perfectionism, overly responsible, never sharing or opening myself up, were definitely not good for marriage.
> 
> As we got further into the marriage problems starting popping up and I started to withdraw out of fear. I let resentment build to unhealthy levels because I was unable to communicate any of my needs and was constantly on the defensive and therefore unable to be a giving spouse.
> 
> It took quite a bit of therapy, reading, and a wonderful husband to get me to a mostly healthy place now.


Are there any books you would suggest for those who find it difficult to trust?


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

I thought that men who were assertive and sexually forward were considered jerks (how many times have you heard a woman complain “he’s only after one thing”), and that being passive and accommodating and deferring to a woman was the way to make her attracted to you.

I thought forgiving someone who wronged you would show them how much you loved them, but it only shows them what they can get away with.

I didn’t know how hard it could be to leave one that was making you miserable.

I also didn’t (and don’t) understand why a romantic relationship seems to be so much harder to make work than others. I don’t fight or have deep disagreements with my family or friends, why is a romantic partner so different? Do we expect too much from others once we become “romantic”? Why can't I just have a friend who sleeps with and is physically affectionate with me (not talking about a FWB).


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

That just means she wants you, but she wants affirmation she is more than just a body to be able to move forward. She doesn't want to be another mark on the bedpost.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I was very naive when it came to relationships. I believed that if you found a woman and sacrificed your own happiness for hers then that would mean she would love you back. It isn't the case. When it comes to relationships you have to have shared values and expectations. Both partners willing to contribute equally to that relationship even if it is in different areas. Love isn't a fairy tail and takes work. Have to find someone worth making the investment in.


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## Giro flee (Mar 12, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Are there any books you would suggest for those who find it difficult to trust?


My reading started with Janet Woititz. Most of it was centered on adult children of alcoholics and the fear of intimacy. I branched off from there into many different authors, I'll try to look them up.

The most frustrating part was reading about my problems and realizing awareness was not the cure. It took a lot of hard work to change my behavior, and unfortunately those little voices of doubt and fear are always in my head, just not as loud or in so much control anymore.


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## Giro flee (Mar 12, 2013)

I believe it is a huge mistake to compare marriage to friendships or familial relationships. Your life is nowhere near as enmeshed with those people as it is with a spouse.

You don't usually share parenting, finances, life goals, values, etc as well as sex with people other than your spouse. It is a lot to navigate, throw in expectations and baggage and it is no wonder how difficult maintaining a marriage is.


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## cons (Aug 13, 2013)

Yes- marriage is MUCH more intimate than familial relationships...It's within marriage where we are most vulnerable... and with vulnerability we open ourselves up to the potential for the great loss but also for the greatest joy...

Brené Brown: The power of vulnerability | Talk Video | TED.com


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## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

I didn't realize there were men out there who don't care for sex.

I also thought that sex would be frequent, spontaneous, and exciting all the time.


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

cons said:


> Yes- marriage is MUCH more intimate than familial relationships...It's within marriage where we are most vulnerable... and with vulnerability we open ourselves up to the potential for the great loss but also for the greatest joy...


I don't agree with this at all. If you allow yourself to be vulnerable, the BEST outcome is that your partner won't use it against you. There is nothing to be gained by it, so why risk it even if you do trust you partner.


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## Giro flee (Mar 12, 2013)

Joey2k said:


> I don't agree with this at all. If you allow yourself to be vulnerable, the BEST outcome is that your partner won't use it against you. There is nothing to be gained by it, so why risk it even if you do trust you partner.


I found this very sad, especially because I used to believe this. Without vulnerability you can never truly ask for what you need because you are afraid to admit it. If you never ask, you will never receive. If you do ask and you have a good partner you may receive more than you ever knew you needed or wanted.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

TheCuriousWife said:


> I didn't realize there were men out there who don't care for sex.
> 
> I also thought that sex would be frequent, spontaneous, and exciting all the time.


Neither did I till I came here. I thought all guys liked sex


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## cons (Aug 13, 2013)

Joeyk- I remember feeling like you felt. The risk of vulnerable love isn't worth the pain...that someone I loved could actually treat me so horribly (to be so deceitful and without empathy and remorse)...

...but I was blessed to meet another man who very much the opposite.


He's not perfect....he has hurt me...and I have hurt him...but what makes it different is that we make amends when we fall short...that we do the next right thing...It's a risk with the greatest reward.

C.S. Lewis wrote:

“To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything and your heart will be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact you must give it to no one, not even an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements. Lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket, safe, dark, motionless, airless, it will change. It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable. To love is to be vulnerable.” 


Sure you can be safe....but in that refuge, do you truly live?


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## toonaive (Dec 13, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> I was very naive when it came to relationships. I believed that if you found a woman and sacrificed your own happiness for hers then that would mean she would love you back. It isn't the case. When it comes to relationships you have to have shared values and expectations. Both partners willing to contribute equally to that relationship even if it is in different areas. Love isn't a fairy tail and takes work. Have to find someone worth making the investment in.


:iagree:


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

cons said:


> Joeyk- I remember feeling like you felt. The risk of vulnerable love isn't worth the pain...that someone I loved could actually treat me so horribly (to be so deceitful and without empathy and remorse)...
> 
> ...but I was blessed to meet another man who very much the opposite.
> 
> ...


What exactly is the reward? The best outcome is that you break even and don't get hurt. I don't get it.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Joey2k said:


> I also didn’t (and don’t) understand why a romantic relationship seems to be so much harder to make work than others. I don’t fight or have deep disagreements with my family or friends, why is a romantic partner so different? Do we expect too much from others once we become “romantic”? Why can't I just have a friend who sleeps with and is physically affectionate with me (not talking about a FWB).


I've often wondered the exact thing. Why are relationships with other people that you love and care about not this complicated? As others have stated, I realize there is a difference, but why are other relationships not even close. I don't give a second thought to the relationship with my parents, brother, cousins, friends. I never have to wonder what kind of mood they're in or try to interpret signals, or wonder if I've done one thing when i should be doing another. That part just handles itself on autopilot. 




TheCuriousWife said:


> I didn't realize there were men out there who don't care for sex.
> 
> I also thought that sex would be frequent, spontaneous, and exciting all the time.


I always thought the same thing about women. I never dreamed sexual desire for women could be so complicated, at least complicated compared to what makes my motor hum.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Is this because of PRIOR experiences then.. did she see this wasn't true of all men... that it was emotional for you?? That not all are the same or treat women the same...
> .
> .
> .
> We screwed up on not purposely trying to arouse each other more so.. the potential was there.


She was sexually abused as a young girl. She learned men valued females for physical gratification. There was certainly no romantic love involved. As a teen she dated substantially older men, again (my speculation on all of this) learning she was valued for providing sex. She also garnered approval of the other high school girls who weren't dating men with cars, spending money, who would take her to the beach for a wild weekend, or were cool professional musicians.

(Where were her parents in all of this? Out to f'n lunch!)

She was quite sexual while we were dating, as is common with sex abuse survivors. Then after the wedding she had great difficulty with physical and emotional intimacy. I was a classic Nice Guy per the book NMMNG and didn't call her out on it assertively. I even tended to blame myself for having done something unknown to have turned her off. She was quite sexual before me, and then with me, so I must have been the one doing something wrong to turn her off of sex.

She remains allergic to normal sexy flirting. I tried some barely suggestive texts and she nearly had a meltdown.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

jld said:


> I don't understand this idea of women not liking genuinely good, kind, helpful men. Is everything superficial?


A pathologically Nice Guy will abdicate his leadership. He will defer to his wife rather than lead with a caring heart.

A really simple example is going out to eat. A kind man will take into account her likes, dislikes, and opinions. He will state "I want to take you out for dinner tonight to the Japanese steak house' (assuming he knows she is likely to enjoy it). If she has an issue or would rather do something else, she is free to say so. He will then discuss and negotiate an agreeable solution. 

The Nice Guy will simple ask if she wants to go out, and where she'd like to go. The Nice Guy believes he is doing the right thing by letting her have whatever she wants. Yet over the long term this dynamic is a disaster.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

I always thought I knew quite a lot about relationship, but finding TAM was an eye-opener. I just wish it was around twenty years ago.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Thor said:


> A pathologically Nice Guy will abdicate his leadership. He will defer to his wife rather than lead with a caring heart.
> 
> A really simple example is going out to eat. A kind man will take into account her likes, dislikes, and opinions. He will state "I want to take you out for dinner tonight to the Japanese steak house' (assuming he knows she is likely to enjoy it). If she has an issue or would rather do something else, she is free to say so. He will then discuss and negotiate an agreeable solution.
> 
> The Nice Guy will simple ask if she wants to go out, and where she'd like to go. The Nice Guy believes he is doing the right thing by letting her have whatever she wants. Yet over the long term this dynamic is a disaster.


You are probably correct with this explanation, and this is another reason why i say that romantic relationships are way too complicated. There is no other relationship I have where going out to eat could be so subtly complicated.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

southbound said:


> You are probably correct with this explanation, and this is another reason why i say that romantic relationships are way too complicated. There is no other relationship I have where going out to eat could be so subtly complicated.


I don't think eating out was the best example. What if he doesn't care where they go, and she does? How is it a problem?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

jld said:


> I don't think eating out was the best example. What if he doesn't care where they go, and she does? How is it a problem?


Lack of leadership, and deferring leadership to her. In isolation, one event is not at all problematic. But when the Nice Guy constantly seems to have no opinion or preference, and is always asking her to make the decision, he starts to look like a boy who needs his mommy to decide for him.

We can start to swerve towards the alpha-beta discussions, but I think someone else used a good term earlier in the thread saying a man needs to retain some edginess. He needs to be decisive and definitive in his desires, and perhaps a bit unpredictable. Always cognizant of her, too, but he should retain an air of leadership rather than deferring to her.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

I did not know that integrity wasn't automatic.

I couldn't tell the difference between nice and kind.

I thought all people defined love the same way.

I thought relationships were all about give and take and compromise, and if some areas were give and others were take, it would still work out overall.

I never dreamed that two people could profess to love each other, but still feel that the other was the taker while they were the giver.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

This is all stuff I realized after I was 50. Honestly I am startled to think how long it took me to figure it out.

1. I thought marriage would get easier when the kids left the house. It became more complex.

2. I thought she would prefer my company to her friends.

3. I never realized what a deeply negative effect pornography would have on my relationship especially when my wife began using it.

4. I did not think that relationships prior to marriage would still be haunting us 30 years later.

5. I had no idea how much my own family dynamic would provide script for what how mine would unfold with my wife and kids.

6. I never thought I would be so deeply hurt by the one I had waited my life for.

7. I thought being a nice guy would be more beneficial to our relationship than detrimental.

8. I never realized how lonely I would be in marriage.


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

Thor said:


> Lack of leadership, and deferring leadership to her. In isolation, one event is not at all problematic. But when the Nice Guy constantly seems to have no opinion or preference, and is always asking her to make the decision, he starts to look like a boy who needs his mommy to decide for him.


I need to stop reading things like this (even if they are true); they really make me dislike women. I try to be accommodating and she loses respect and attraction for me. It makes me feel women and relationships aren't worth the hassle.

(For the record, the going out to eat dilemma is all too familiar to me; I'll ask what she wants to eat, she doesn't know, I'll suggest place after place, she doesn't like any of them, then she gets frustrated with me for not being able to figure out what she wants to eat, when she doesn't know herself).


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Joey2k said:


> I need to stop reading things like this (even if they are true); they really make me dislike women. I try to be accommodating and she loses respect and attraction for me. It makes me feel women and relationships aren't worth the hassle.
> 
> (For the record, the going out to eat dilemma is all too familiar to me; I'll ask what she wants to eat, she doesn't know, I'll suggest place after place, she doesn't like any of them, then she gets frustrated with me for not being able to figure out what she wants to eat, when she doesn't know herself).


Not to pile on the issues, but what makes it even more difficult is when you must balance what Thor posted with the idea of equality. That's where it gets tricky. It isn't too tough to figure out what you want, but making sure you don't overstep your bounds and make her feel controlled and less important is definitely a challenge.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Joey2k said:


> I need to stop reading things like this (even if they are true); they really make me dislike women. I try to be accommodating and she loses respect and attraction for me. It makes me feel women and relationships aren't worth the hassle.
> 
> (For the record, the going out to eat dilemma is all too familiar to me; I'll ask what she wants to eat, she doesn't know, I'll suggest place after place, she doesn't like any of them, then she gets frustrated with me for not being able to figure out what she wants to eat, when she doesn't know herself).


I understand your concern here, but my opinion is that believing a falsehood is much more hazardous than believing a truth, no matter how unpleasant. So I have made peace with the nature of women, even though I wish it were different.


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## JustTired (Jan 22, 2012)

I grew up with a mother that gave me some very skewed views on relationships & the opposite sex. My mother taught me:

- Men are stupid & literally don't know jack $hit

- Men will easily leave you & the kids; then you're "stuck" with kids, no money & no help

- If you gain weight, your man will leave you

I never learned what showing proper respect to your mate entails because my parents disrespected each other in front of us all the time. Love languages? What is that?!? All I learned from my parents was anger.

It wasn't until I was like 25 years old that I sought out therapy. that is when I finally started learning what relationships are all about.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Lol, JT. My mom always warned me men only want one thing. 

Thing is, I think my dad would have said the same.


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## JustTired (Jan 22, 2012)

jld said:


> Lol, JT. My mom always warned me men only want one thing.
> 
> Thing is, I think my dad would have said the same.



LOL!!! That's another one my mom told me too!


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## razgor (May 8, 2014)

Joey2k said:


> I need to stop reading things like this (even if they are true); they really make me dislike women. I try to be accommodating and she loses respect and attraction for me. It makes me feel women and relationships aren't worth the hassle.
> 
> (For the record, the going out to eat dilemma is all too familiar to me; I'll ask what she wants to eat, she doesn't know, I'll suggest place after place, she doesn't like any of them, then she gets frustrated with me for not being able to figure out what she wants to eat, when she doesn't know herself).


LOL, been down this road. The answer is to simply pick where you want to go! Announce, I want to go to so-so. And go!

The one thing I have learned is that being a little selfish is actually GOOD for your marriage. The other thing, is women what a man who has an opinion and knows what he wants. So go be a little selfish!


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Frankly, to add to the restaurnat conversation, we always decide together where we want to it. 

Maybe when you are still dating he should invite her, but later on I really want to have say where I eat. maybe you guys are trying to hard that alpha thing?


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## razgor (May 8, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> Frankly, to add to the restaurnat conversation, we always decide together where we want to it.
> 
> Maybe when you are still dating he should invite her, but later on I really want to have say where I eat. maybe you guys are trying to hard that alpha thing?


Ha, no alpha thing. Of course if the wife really wants something then we will go there (provided I like it to. But I am not super picky). Just if she starts getting wishy-washy about what to eat or do - make a decision and go!

Edit: In the beginning I used to run down a list of restaurants with her. She would get frustrated and I would get frustrated. So make the decision. Then don't be suprised the next time you mention dinner - she picks the restaurant out from the start!


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Joey2k said:


> I need to stop reading things like this (even if they are true); they really make me dislike women. I try to be accommodating and she loses respect and attraction for me. It makes me feel women and relationships aren't worth the hassle.
> 
> (For the record, the going out to eat dilemma is all too familiar to me; I'll ask what she wants to eat, she doesn't know, I'll suggest place after place, she doesn't like any of them, then she gets frustrated with me for not being able to figure out what she wants to eat, when she doesn't know herself).



So what you do is become _declarative_. "I feel like Sushi tonight. There's a new place downtown getting great reviews. Let's leave in half an hour".

If she doesn't feel like sushi she can tell you. You are giving her every opportunity to get what she wants, you aren't going to force her to eat sushi if she really doesn't want it.

Contrast that to "Do you feel like going to Outback tonight?" No. "Do you feel like going to McGrath's Fish House" No. "Do you feel like sushi tonight?" No.

Chances are you're running into her not wanting to have to make the decision rather than not really wanting to go to any of those places.

Two books you should read are: "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. R. Glover, and "The Way of the Superior Man" by D. Deida. Not all of both books will apply to you but you will get some great nuggets out of each.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Joey2k said:


> *I don't agree with this at all. If you allow yourself to be vulnerable, the BEST outcome is that your partner won't use it against you. There is nothing to be gained by it, so why risk it even if you do trust you partner*.


Oh but there is much to be gained.. but you are right..* TRUST* needs to be built with this person before you 1st.. not everyone is worthy of our trust but a select few...we should hope a spouse.. but unfortunately it's not always the case. 

I have always & forever bared my soul to my Husband, he's never hurt me but protected & guarded my heart..

On the other hand, he feared being AS vulnerable WITH ME in 1 area.. and because of this... we missed each other.. Now that we have opened up in the deepest ways....(I sought to understand how this happened to us...the hurt...the why's)...we went forth united, forgiving where we missed it...it's brought us closer than we've ever been.. 

I did a thread on this subject, a little outline from the author who spoke in that video (Brene Brown) taken from her book...

The Gifts of Imperfection: Let Go of Who You Think You're Supposed to Be and Embrace Who You Are: 

.. she is the "Shame researcher"...she also felt LIKE YOU at one time, bulked at it..(she speaks of this in the video!) 

Taken from my Vulnerability thread...



> Brene Brown: The Power of vulnerability
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jld said:


> *Lol, JT. My mom always warned me men only want one thing.
> 
> Thing is, I think my dad would have said the same*.


But there is MUCH TRUTH TO THIS.. the problem is.. parents do not get down to the nitty gritty in how one separates all of this.. and what it may mean to Us.. do we know what we want?...and how to handle..

I've always explained...there are boys who will take the time to get to know a girl, show them they are important...take them places, treat them...before going in for a hot kiss...

And then there are boys who will want a piece of action -just because they fish to get it...they may not even remember your name the next day.. 

I met some guy when I was young at a amusement park.. I doubt I walked around with him for 10 minutes before he asked me to go behind the Roller coaster to make out... I don't think so buddy!...... Another one at Disney world on a trip.. what did he want me for.. to touch his penis on that Space ride.... 

Boys.. . gotta love them in some ways.... but be very very careful ! They can hardly help themselves.. so we have to be wise!


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## SamuraiJack (May 30, 2014)

I don’t even recognize myself from before she left me.
I was a romantic and believed that all I had to do ”was love her even more”…and everything would be alright.

I didn’t know about WAW’s either so when things calmed down I thought “Wow I finally loved her enough”.
Turns out she was just prepping for dust off.

I thought “til death us part” was for real and when problems came up we would tackle them and work together on it and I would always be able to say I needed something. I didn’t realize that a person could take up so much of the relationship they could leave you starving for air.

I didn’t realize that a person could change SO drastically and how they could SO drastically shift how they saw the other person.

Had no idea about 180’s, NC and standing your ground.

Am I older? Yes.
Am I wiser? Oh yes indeed.
Will I try again? I’m contemplating it.


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

Thor said:


> Two books you should read are: "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. R. Glover, and "The Way of the Superior Man" by D. Deida. Not all of both books will apply to you but you will get some great nuggets out of each.


Haven't read it all, but I've skimmed through The Way of the Superior Man, and all it did was piss me off. If women really were the way they are portrayed in that book, I wouldn't want anything to do with them.


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## JustTired (Jan 22, 2012)

Joey2k said:


> (For the record, the going out to eat dilemma is all too familiar to me; I'll ask what she wants to eat, she doesn't know, I'll suggest place after place, she doesn't like any of them, then she gets frustrated with me for not being able to figure out what she wants to eat, when she doesn't know herself).


I had to laugh at this because I have the same issue except with my HUSBAND! He is the most indecisive person ever, especially when it comes to going out to eat. So I just pick the place & he finds something that he can eat there. I don't have time for all of the back & forth.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

technovelist said:


> I understand your concern here, but my opinion is that believing a falsehood is much more hazardous than believing a truth, no matter how unpleasant. So I have made peace with the nature of women, even though I wish it were different.


I have discovered this; one might as well admit the truth and make peace with it. After I have accepted the truth, however, it's made me realize I'm happy being single; I don't really need all the complications and stress of a relationship.

I may meet a woman that sweeps me off my feet tomorrow, and all the stuff we have discussed here would be worth it, but right now, I'm happy doing what I want when I want, and not having to spend my time trying to decipher signals or wonder if the true me who might say "where do you want to eat" instead of picking the place myself is acceptable.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Southbound, just be yourself. Ask her where she wants to eat. I am sure it will be fine.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Something just dawned on me in reading this thread. I guess I consider a lot of things "my problem" and not a partners. What I mean is, if I'm so torn up about whether someone asks me where I want to go eat or if they pick and take the load off me, I consider that a weird quirk of my own. 

I wouldn't hold someone else responsible and lose attraction for them because they were following their nature with something that simple. Does nobody else view it that way, or is everything someone else's fault with most people? 

I don't mean to beat the "where to eat" thing to death or put too much importance on it, but it's as good of an example as any. If it weren't that, it would be something else. 

Maybe that's the reason I never quite understand people who divorce simply because they aren't happy anymore with what some would consider small things. I don't expect people to read my mind or always butter my toast correctly.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *Thor said*: *She was sexually abused as a young girl. She learned men valued females for physical gratification. There was certainly no romantic love involved. As a teen she dated substantially older men, again (my speculation on all of this) learning she was valued for providing sex. She also garnered approval of the other high school girls who weren't dating men with cars, spending money, who would take her to the beach for a wild weekend, or were cool professional musicians.
> 
> (Where were her parents in all of this? Out to f'n lunch!)
> 
> ...


 I remember your story now THOR.. it's been a very difficult road ......with this sort of trauma in her upbringing , what you have described -it often follows a similar script... just a shame..her capacity to trust was deeply shaken.. 

.. I'm sure the last thing she needed was an overbearing man who didn't treat her right.... but I know what you mean.. It can swing too much in the other direction too.... I have the "No More Mr Nice Guy" book.. there is some very valuable information in there for men who get caught seeking approval from women to the point of loosing their authentic / assertive selves -taking a hit on their quirky charm -which makes them relatable , lovable and Enjoyed. 



Thor said:


> A pathologically Nice Guy will abdicate his leadership. He will defer to his wife rather than lead with a caring heart.
> 
> A really simple example is going out to eat. A kind man will take into account her likes, dislikes, and opinions. He will state "I want to take you out for dinner tonight to the Japanese steak house' (assuming he knows she is likely to enjoy it). If she has an issue or would rather do something else, she is free to say so. He will then discuss and negotiate an agreeable solution.
> 
> *The Nice Guy will simple ask if she wants to go out, and where she'd like to go. The Nice Guy believes he is doing the right thing by letting her have whatever she wants. Yet over the long term this dynamic is a disaster.*


I can only speak from my own experience here.. My husband has always been MORE LIKELY to ask what I want to do 1st.. and no, it's not been a problem for us. ..33 yrs later...haven't lost attraction to him ... 

But ...and maybe THIS makes a difference in these things....*I've always been one inclined to ask and find out his feelings, wants & desires too*.. for instance...I know he's not crazy about Chinese, he got sick once & won't touch that restaurant again.... I want him to be happy too !.. He would say something if he didn't care for my choice...as another said.. some men just aren't as picky or particular... Isn't this a plus) and it would be great if women were similar. Personally I am awfully easy to please.. I don't expect fine wine & dining..

And a # of times I have said...."come on, where would you like to go?"... I may throw out some ideas if he is lagging on an answer"... very common.. I feel we pretty much decide together.. by bouncing things off of each other.. Beings I am always looking to save $$ ... often my choices are related to a coupon or where our large family can get the most bang for the buck. 



> We can start to swerve towards the alpha-beta discussions, but I think someone else used a good term earlier in the thread saying a man needs to retain some edginess. He needs to be decisive and definitive in his desires, and perhaps a bit unpredictable. Always cognizant of her, too, but he should retain an air of leadership rather than deferring to her.


 I am a woman who prizes a willing transparency OVER the ALPHA "unpredictability"..... Mystery men are not what turns me on.. I'd rather be with a "Best friend type" that others would consider more Beta-ish who enjoys discussing things WITH ME.. 

In our marriage.. H has always brought his ideas to me....that's just the way he naturally IS... there has been times I might even chuckle at him telling me he plans to buy some plow part - as what do I know about these things... but really I appreciate he keeps me informed.. 

I pretty much handle all the finances related to our family.. All college related everything.... he brings in the money, he works on stuff I can't.. He appreciates that I save him a lot of stress dealing with people, scheduling for 7 of us, every school paper brought home needing signed, deadlines of every sort.. prices, what CD's to put our $ into, doing the research & the leg work...this works for us. 

A little edginess.. to me -that is a little bad boy.. . DRY HUMOR...a little sarcasm.... When a man can get his woman to laugh at herself.. he is KING... and them falling down laughing together.. it's hard to top moments like that.... Mine is more the Gentleman type but I think some would be surprised the things that come out of his mouth behind closed doors.. and I really love that.


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## tangled123 (Jan 18, 2015)

enlightening thread!

The list of what I did not know is too long, so what I thought before marriage was:


Only men will enjoy sex (blame my grandmother)- now I know thats bull
Sex will get too boring after children - found out otherwise
Husband and wife will and have to think alike to be happy- How stupid have I been?
I will be able to allow him to make decisions for me - this is a total flop
It is not possible to fix things once we screw up the marriage (cheating/lies) - now I am learning that possibilities are endless if we are willing to work through the problem (mostly after reading on TAM) but I am not sure about affairs which is a deal breaker to me.
It is not possible to overcome resentment - learning that it is possible was not easy and I am so glad I did. It feels like I am falling in love all over again and all the imperfections seems so trivial (call me naive but that's how I feel)


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

tangled123 said:


> enlightening thread!
> 
> The list of what I did not know is too long, so what I thought before marriage was:
> 
> ...


It appears everything you didn't know turned into a positive, which is good.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

tangled123 said:


> enlightening thread!
> 
> The list of what I did not know is too long, so what I thought before marriage was:
> 
> ...


I do think we and our spouse need to think similarly. 

Resentment is a tough one for me.

Do you have a book(s) or thread(s) or something you can share?


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## razgor (May 8, 2014)

southbound said:


> Something just dawned on me in reading this thread. I guess I consider a lot of things "my problem" and not a partners. What I mean is, if I'm so torn up about whether someone asks me where I want to go eat or if they pick and take the load off me, I consider that a weird quirk of my own.
> 
> I wouldn't hold someone else responsible and lose attraction for them because they were following their nature with something that simple. Does nobody else view it that way, or is everything someone else's fault with most people?
> 
> ...


Southbound, at first I kind of had the same reaction as you. How would being nice and catering to her cause her to lose interest in me? But it is not really a woman thing, just a human thing. Imagine you had a male friend that always catered to you. Did only what you wanted, never came up with anything to do on his own. He never called you and wanted to go do a guys night. But would hang out if you asked him to. At first, it might be cool. But after a while it would start to get on your nerves. Then imagine you are with that person everyday of your life for years. How boring! And the reverse is also true. What guy wants a male friend that only wants to do what he wants to do. So either extreme is bad.

I think it is human nature to be attracted to *people* that are interesting! It is not an alpha/beta thing. Those words are so overused. Be your own person first. Work to be interesting, do things that make you happy, try new and different things. I am not suggesting that you have to be domineering to your spouse. You can still be a nice guy. Just don’t put her wants before your wants all the time! And I think that goes for any healthy relationship. Friends, parents, children and your spouse.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

razgor said:


> Southbound, at first I kind of had the same reaction as you. How would being nice and catering to her cause her to lose interest in me? But it is not really a woman thing, just a human thing. Imagine you had a male friend that always catered to you. Did only what you wanted, never came up with anything to do on his own. He never called you and wanted to go do a guys night. But would hang out if you asked him to. At first, it might be cool. But after a while it would start to get on your nerves. Then imagine you are with that person everyday of your life for years. How boring! And the reverse is also true. What guy wants a male friend that only wants to do what he wants to do. So either extreme is bad.
> 
> I think it is human nature to be attracted to *people* that are interesting! It is not an alpha/beta thing. Those words are so overused. Be your own person first. Work to be interesting, do things that make you happy, try new and different things. I am not suggesting that you have to be domineering to your spouse. You can still be a nice guy. Just don’t put her wants before your wants all the time! And I think that goes for any healthy relationship. Friends, parents, children and your spouse.


Yep, and I think it's a sort of training to actively think of something to do, like where you want to eat, not where she wants to eat. It's not a non-caring atitude, it's more that she's an adult and can open her mouth if she doesn't want to go somewhere or decides she wants to go somewhere in particular. In the end, you are correct. It's not about alpha and beta, gamma or delta. Those are just terms that have gotten bad names because they imply control and abuse. That's not what is meant, but it takes time to understand that and adapt ideas to your own personality. You don't have to own a corporation, a yacht or hunt lions and tigers with a bowie knife. You just have to have an opinion and be able to express it with confidence that you know what you want. No forcing necessary. She is important and so are her needs, just be sure you don't forget your own, or you will become bitter and it will show.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Must confess I only read the first three pages of this thread before starting to write, probably because this subject is so painful. My FOO was confusing and emotionally traumatic that I was bound to misunderstand all relationships. Same sex camaraderie is the easiest to figure our because it happens in school.

Relationships with the opposite sex were mysterious. The desire to get close to girls is so strong and yet many guys are shy. How are relationships supposed to work? To the adolescent boy, or me at any rate, a girl's personality was important. But liking her as a person and desiring her sexually seemed in conflict. 

The idea that successful relationships required work. Work on self and work on the relationship was nothing that I wanted to figure out. Sex and love should solve everything. Marriage was a sacred commitment. The idea that it wouldn't take care of itself hardly occurred to me.

I once asked a friend what our lives would have been like if we had understood the things we do today back when we were young and he replied: "We would have been a danger to ourselves and others."


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

razgor said:


> Southbound, at first I kind of had the same reaction as you. How would being nice and catering to her cause her to lose interest in me? But it is not really a woman thing, just a human thing. Imagine you had a male friend that always catered to you. Did only what you wanted, never came up with anything to do on his own. He never called you and wanted to go do a guys night. But would hang out if you asked him to. At first, it might be cool. But after a while it would start to get on your nerves. Then imagine you are with that person everyday of your life for years. How boring! And the reverse is also true. What guy wants a male friend that only wants to do what he wants to do. So either extreme is bad.
> 
> I think it is human nature to be attracted to *people* that are interesting! It is not an alpha/beta thing. Those words are so overused. Be your own person first. Work to be interesting, do things that make you happy, try new and different things. I am not suggesting that you have to be domineering to your spouse. You can still be a nice guy. Just don’t put her wants before your wants all the time! And I think that goes for any healthy relationship. Friends, parents, children and your spouse.


This being "interesting" doesn't sound weird, but I guess everyone has their own idea of what interesting is. What I find interesting, most people probably find boring. I just like a laid back, drama free life. I'm not always yearning to be involved in something or be in some kind of activity. To be honest, probably the thing that I look most forward to is realizing ahead of time that I have some time to spend a quiet, relaxing day or evening practically doing nothing but relaxing. 

A movie or something mixed into that will work. When I know I have vacation time coming, what I look forward to most is imagining not having to be on a schedule, relaxing, going and coming as I please, that kind of thing. I don't skydive, have a four-wheeler, boat, camper, huge grill, or anything of that nature, yet, I'm happy as a lark because I know who I am. 

the men who were role models in my childhood were just good men who weren't afraid to put food on the table and be a good father. I don't recall any women in my family saying they fell in love because the men were interesting. 

I'm not interested in putting on a show, or striving to be someone I'm not in the least just to appear more interesting or appealing. 

As far as the guy friends, I have a couple just as you described, and it's all fine with me.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

SamuraiJack said:


> I don’t even recognize myself from before she left me.
> I was a romantic and believed that all I had to do ”was love her even more”…and everything would be alright.
> 
> I didn’t know about WAW’s either so when things calmed down I thought “Wow I finally loved her enough”.
> ...


YES. I hear you on the contemplating.

Too bad it takes so much time and pain to learn all this wisdom. I feel like my ex took the best of my youth and stomped all over it. Now that I finally understand relationships better I have no more energy or attractiveness left with which to pursue a good one.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> YES. I hear you on the contemplating.
> 
> Too bad it takes so much time and pain to learn all this wisdom. I feel like my ex took the best of my youth and stomped all over it. Now that I finally understand relationships better I have no more energy or attractiveness left with which to pursue a good one.


 

((Hopeful Cynic))


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

That bridging the cultural and racial divide in an Intercultural / interracial marriage would be way too complicated. 

The importance of healthy (mentally) in-laws and healthy relationship between the spouses and in laws.

Materialism.


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

I found out that even though me an my ex wife loved each other (and probably both still do), it was not enough. We had taken each other for granted for so long that both resented each other but neither revealed the hurt.

We were loving parents and once our daughter left for college we were not ready for the challenges of empty nesters.

The incompatibites that normally were not an issue became infected sores.

For a marriage the biggest thing I learned is if there is the tiniest issue with the relationship is to never ignore it. Usually by the time you get to that point of feeling there is an issue it needs to be addressed immediately. Lingering hurt feelings (lack of intimacy, not doing things together) just feeds itself like a disease.

Had me and my ex wife worked on things sooner we probably would not have split after 23 years together. 

School of hard knocks for sure.


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## SamuraiJack (May 30, 2014)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> YES. I hear you on the contemplating.
> 
> Too bad it takes so much time and pain to learn all this wisdom. I feel like my ex took the best of my youth and stomped all over it. Now that I finally understand relationships better I have no more energy or attractiveness left with which to pursue a good one.


I CALL BULLSH1T!

Any man worth his salt knows that it isn't about your physical form...its about the total package of YOU.

Physical beauty can change in less than a second.
But a good soul...can never be pushed under.

Do NOT let the people in your past dictate your future...do not go easily into that good night.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> YES. I hear you on the contemplating.
> 
> Too bad it takes so much time and pain to learn all this wisdom. I feel like my ex took the best of my youth and stomped all over it. Now that I finally understand relationships better I have no more energy or attractiveness left with which to pursue a good one.


I hear you. Sometimes I wish my x wife had just looked the other way instead of setting her sights on me and then decide after 18 years that she wasn't happy anymore, even though I'm basically the same person i always was.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

2ntnuf said:


> You don't have to own a corporation, a yacht or hunt lions and tigers with a bowie knife. *You just have to have an opinion and be able to express it with confidence that you know what you want. No forcing necessary. She is important and so are her needs, just be sure you don't forget your own, or you will become bitter and it will show.*


 I like this.. Yes... :smthumbup::smthumbup:


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## tangled123 (Jan 18, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> Resentment is a tough one for me.
> 
> Do you have a book(s) or thread(s) or something you can share?


Sorry that I have no link or book to share but my own experience. There were a couple of threads here on that subject. But mainly I felt that many stories here revolves around resentment

When my accumulated anger turned into resentment, I had no idea what to do. I have read through this forum and many articles on resentment for a few years now but nothing seemed to work. To be honest, I couldn't even relate it to my situation. 

But reading all over made me understand that it is continuing to affect me and the family more than what my husband did. Besides, finding out the underlying reasons for his actions and my part in it has greatly helped. The most crucial change came when I found out he too has resentments over my actions but dealing with it differently. In addition, realizing that my resentment has caused pain to my H kinda made me feel like I wasn't the only one who was in pain and we are even now (this sounds cruel may be)

Trust me, I have read all of the above many years ago it just didn't make sense until when everything came together. Time is also an important factor here I think. 

One thing I am planning now is, we both are going to write down our list of resentments on a separate paper, take a boat into the sea and throw it away physically and kiss it good bye. It might sound childish I like the idea. 

I truly hope you will find it inside you to overcome it soon. Its really worth it.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> You don't have to own a corporation, a yacht or hunt lions and tigers with a bowie knife. You just have to have an opinion and be able to express it with confidence that you know what you want. No forcing necessary. She is important and so are her needs, just be sure you don't forget your own, or you will become bitter and it will show.


You may not have to own a corporation and all that, but a slightly toned down version is what women seem to want where I'm from. A lot of people I know have a boat, camper, swimming pool, a nice house, a couple of huge tv's, they go on a vacation or two every year, and they're always doing something, but they will say, "Oh, I don't need a lot of stuff to be happy." 

All that is just from the middle class. I guess it's just a matter of how we categorize things personally. I call that "stuff," but it may just be everyday things to most people.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

southbound said:


> You may not have to own a corporation and all that, but a slightly toned down version is what women seem to want where I'm from. A lot of people I know have a boat, camper, swimming pool, a nice house, a couple of huge tv's, they go on a vacation or two every year, and they're always doing something, but they will say, "Oh, I don't need a lot of stuff to be happy."
> 
> All that is just from the middle class. I guess it's just a matter of how we categorize things personally. I call that "stuff," but it may just be everyday things to most people.


Yeah, I wouldn't have a clue. Haven't been on a vacation, as such in five years. I don't see one in my future. I don't have a house or a swimming pool, not even a blow up pool lol, and I'm sure I wouldn't be attractive to any of those women. But, I can still have character. That's free.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> YES. I hear you on the contemplating.
> 
> Too bad it takes so much time and pain to learn all this wisdom. I feel like my ex took the best of my youth and stomped all over it. Now that I finally understand relationships better I have no more energy or attractiveness left with which to pursue a good one.


Many of us feel the same way. I don't know If I would be willing to put the work involved into a marriage especially when I tried so hard in the first one. It's always in the back of my mind. Contemplating. But I always come back to why would I want to chance this again you know.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> Yeah, I wouldn't have a clue. Haven't been on a vacation, as such in five years. I don't see one in my future. I don't have a house or a swimming pool, not even a blow up pool lol, and I'm sure I wouldn't be attractive to any of those women. But, I can still have character. That's free.


Very true, it just seems to take so much more to interest people these days.

Something else I thought incorrectly:

For whatever reason, I never thought much about "stuff" or being "the most fascinating man alive" as an attractor when i was younger. I just thought every person had someone out there that they would click with on another level and that would do the trick, but I guess not.



Wolf1974 said:


> Many of us feel the same way. I don't know If I would be willing to put the work involved into a marriage especially when I tried so hard in the first one. It's always in the back of my mind. Contemplating. But I always come back to why would I want to chance this again you know.


I agree. And I've thought since my divorce, what's the big prize I get out of another relationship? I quit doing what I want when i want to start playing the relationship game again and trying to interpret signals, wondering if I'm doing one thing when I should be doing another to keep things smooth, etc. I don't really want another job.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

southbound said:


> Very true, it just seems to take so much more to interest people these days.
> 
> Something else I thought incorrectly:
> 
> ...


I know why I don't think of much stuff. I've trained myself because I got my feelings hurt too many times hoping to get something, just about having the money saved and then something stops me. I hate owing money, so I didn't take out loans very often and mostly, I couldn't get a loan because of the carnage created by my overspending first wife. Some things, like my motorcycle, I had to sell in the divorce to pay second wife half the value. After never having what you really wanted, you just force yourself to quit hoping. 

I thought there was someone out there for me, too. So, I understand.

As far as a relationship, I don't know yet. It's not anywhere near time for me to think about that, and I'm not young. I haven't even dated yet and it's been almost four years since my second wife left. 

I find myself lying against my pillow at night because I miss feeling her lying there beside me. I wake in the morning and don't know what to do with myself because I don't have anyone to talk with in the morning and tell what my dream was that night. I don't eat at normal hours because I don't have a reason for a time frame without someone there to share. I don't cook like I used to because there's no one to enjoy it with. 

As far as the work involved in a relationship? I know I'm not ready. I didn't mind the back and forth, give and take. It's all part of having a real life. It gave me something interesting to do. Don't know if I'll ever be ready for even dating. Things have changed too much. I've changed too much. I don't like being alone at all, but I don't have any hope of finding that happiness again. I don't want it torn away from me again. I don't know if I can survive another heartbreak like that. I'm having a hard time just typing this. So, I know I'm still broken. 

And, believe me, I have nothing. I likely will never have anything. So, I work on being a better man. That's all I've got left. That's all I can hope to achieve.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> As far as a relationship, I don't know yet. It's not anywhere near time for me to think about that, and I'm not young. I haven't even dated yet and it's been almost four years since my second wife left.
> 
> I find myself lying against my pillow at night because I miss feeling her lying there beside me. I wake in the morning and don't know what to do with myself because I don't have anyone to talk with in the morning and tell what my dream was that night. I don't eat at normal hours because I don't have a reason for a time frame without someone there to share. I don't cook like I used to because there's no one to enjoy it with.
> 
> As far as the work involved in a relationship? I know I'm not ready. I didn't mind the back and forth, give and take. It's all part of having a real life. It gave me something interesting to do. Don't know if I'll ever be ready for even dating. Things have changed too much. I've changed too much. I don't like being alone at all, but I don't have any hope of finding that happiness again. I don't want it torn away from me again. I don't know if I can survive another heartbreak like that. I'm having a hard time just typing this. So, I know I'm still broken.


It's been over four years since my divorce, and I haven't dated either. I'm in a different place than you currently. I jump in my bed at night and like the idea that I have it all to myself. I can sprawl out and take the entire bed or whatever.

I wake in the morning happy as a lark. Not happy with the act of divorce, but just happy in my current situation. I don't mind being alone at all. I eat whatever I want whenever I want to eat it. I don't do a lot of major cooking either, but that's ok with me. 

I suppose another relationship would be great if it was great. I would give it my all to be a great, mature human being, but I'm just not in the mood to play the game again; nothing about it appeals to me.


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## scatty (Mar 15, 2013)

I guess I didn't know how how much love and trust I could feel for a man, when my own father was a serial cheater. I never compared the two, and never doubted my man- when my past said I should have! 

I now know why my dad never accepted or really even liked my hubby- it is because he is twice the man he is. I could have grown up very distrustful of men, but I guess I just knew my dad is an a hole in the relationship department. We got together young, so maybe I was lucky in that I was less jaded or maybe I was lucky that my hubby was a stand-up guy. Probably both.


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