# Spouse of a Doctor - At Wits End



## CJ.Love

Hi All - new to the forum, and have found this community because I am at a crossroads and need help. A brief synopsis of my current situation is as follows:

-- Mid-30's male, married to a surgeon for 5 years, together for 9 years, 2 young kids, house.

-- Both partners very well educated, career driven, "type A"

-- I am an extrovert, with many friends from all walks of life (high school, college, grad school, work, neighborhood) and very social/active; wife is an introvert, only 2-3 friends, prefers to stay at home and not do much

-- Wife's job/career has taken us along a roller coaster over the last 9 years - crushing work schedule/hours/stress, living apart in different cities, 3 different jobs, tremendous sleep deprivation buildup, etc. It is her true focus in life and has been since day 1 - things have not changed at all since schooling, although when we first dated/got married I thought they would

-- As a result of the prior post, I have had to make many sacrifices along the way - first it was shut down much of my social life due to her personality/work demands/tiredness....now it is doing the lion's share (~80%) of the house responsibilities - laundry, garbage, pet care, paying bills, lawn work, etc. I have had to change jobs to a career trajectory with less upside and pay in order to facilitate her latest job change

-- This is now starting to affect child care as well - her demands have started to impact her ability to be there for the kids, and I foresee this being a major issue as they get older - her having to miss games, school plays, activities, etc. Luckily my schedule is flexible so one of us will be able to still do this

-- Sex life is basically on life support; has never been good, now down to 1-2x a year; its an elephant in the room that we dont really address - there are many roots to this problem, but its a huge issue....much of it stems from lack of communication and desire/comfort on her part to ever talk about something that is uncomfortable

I've read and re-read "No More Mr Nice Guy" -- fits me to a tee in may ways. Have been to a # of therapists over the years to address my own issues (confidence, prior porn problems, being a "doormat" etc.) which has really helped. We have tried couples counseling in the past and she hated it - only lasted a few sessions and then shut it down.

So I'm finally starting to think about separating. Feel like I'm with someone who isnt willing to make changes, and in may ways who I dont think can make changes. I feel hopeless and sad, primarily for the children. And I've lost much of myself in this marriage and feel drained and empty in my own respect.

Dont think that being married to a "high profile career person" is a great thing - ala a doctor/surgeon -- the money may be fine, but it comes with a price. 

Any help or thoughts would be more than welcome. Thanks.


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## ScrambledEggs

It is hard to imagine that anyone here can provide better and even as complete of insight as a therapist but let me give it a try.

I think you have things pretty good so you might think twice about it. Based on what you have said about fitting NMMNG I suggest you work to enforce boundaries more aggressively and see if that leads to arguments and discontent or a better life? I get the impression that your wife tends to have an upper hand of dominance in the relationship in some fashion. Case in point if it where otherwise you might have said "I have to push her into going out and doing things to enjoy life and her unhappiness ruins it" rather than "we just don't go out" If you can't deal with this, its going to be a problem in any relationship. 

Part of those boundaries are setting expectations for communication, sharing, time with the kids, sex life, and addressing/balancing dominance in matters great and small. Put all your cards on the table, tell her you love her and then it is for her to work with you, or for you to enforce the boundaries.

All the issues around keeping the house are trivial. At your income level you can easily afford landscaping, housecleaning, full laundry, and even meal services. You guys worked hard and sacrificed to get where you are. Even paying bills now is stupid easy with the various applications and automated payment methods available to us. Enjoy your hard work and pay for some labor.

Also, I am less sympathetic given you must have realized long before kids and marriage that you where marrying someone that was going to have an ambitious career. Even if you did not realize what that meant at the time, it is still on you.

Finally, given that your are such an extrovert with many friends, none of those friends happen to be women that you could see yourself in a relationship with are they?


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## bandit.45

You can't be in a marriage by yourself. Would she agree to marriage counseling?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor

CJ, welcome aboard. Have you been to the NMMNG forums at No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group - Powered by vBulletin yet?

It sounds as if your wife may be running away from something by immersing herself in not only her job but in the way she is moving around and has few friends or outside interests. Is there anything in her background which might be traumatic or which would push her to prioritize her career over everything else?

As a general statement, what you describe seems like an all too common loss of priorities. Yes she has some professional responsibilities, and yes money is important in this world. But those things are not everything. Where is the moderation in her life?

One of my coworkers is a former Wall St. banker who now works as a pilot. His wife is a physician. They have structured their work schedules such that he works about half time and she works no more than 40 hrs per week. They take a substantial family vacation every summer with their kids. They have enough money for sure, but they could each make at least 2x more if they wanted to. But they instead have allowed for other things to be important considerations in their lives.

"Quality of Life" is a phrase which applies. With balance comes Quality of Life. Your wife is out of balance, and thus the marriage relationship and the family itself are out of balance.

Is there some reason she fights finding balance? Some past traumas or faulty upbringing could cause her to have a psychological resistance.


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## EleGirl

Much of what you describe is typical for being married to a doctor/surgeon. Except in your case your the husband and not the wife.

My suggestion is that you tell her that you are at wits end. Tell her that you need for her to go with you to MC for six months to a year and find a way to restructure your lives and your marriage. You cannot stay in a marriage where there is no emotional and sexual intimacy, where she provides no companionship.

Get the books "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters". Both of you read them and work through what the books say to do. Is this part of the MC you do.

Hire someone to do things like house work, yard care. 

Is there someone else in your life?


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## CJ.Love

To answer some of the questions posed:

-- There is no one else in my life. While I have certain dreams and fantasies of finding a "perfect someone" that is much more compatible, I realize that is likely a pipe dream. So this isn't being driven by an affair with someone who I think meets more/all of the needs not met in my marriage

-- We have tried marriage counseling in the past, after I went to counseling on my own due to my own issues related to intimacy issues, past battles with porn viewing, etc. The couples sessions were all one way (driven by me) and it was clear she hated them and didn't like talking about intimate parts of her life or opening up. Similar to what I encounter on my own at home. I've continued to see therapists and read books to address my own issues, for the better part of 3 years, and I've made some great progress (although I've still got a way to go).

-- I expected hurdles when dating/marrying a "career woman"....I just never expected the robotic/cold/one track minded (aka career) person like the one I'm married to. I thought the kids would change things, but the little energy, bandwidth, concern, and care left over after each work day is given to the kids, not me

-- my wife has clearly said she doesn't know how to relax, how to have fun, and how to not worry. She has issues with anxiety, but again - refuses to address them. She neglects herself (gym/fitness, her own medical care, clothes/leisure activities), so she can't even show attention to herself

I always joke that the hospital and the patients get all the energy and care, and I get none. 9 years and counting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl

CJ.Love said:


> -- I expected hurdles when dating/marrying a "career woman"....I just never expected the robotic/cold/one track minded (aka career) person like the one I'm married to. I thought the kids would change things, but the little energy, bandwidth, concern, and care left over after each work day is given to the kids, not me


Being married to a "career woman" should not cause hurdles as it does not hold that "career women" are difficult in personality or in a relationship.

Career women are not "robotic/cold/one track minded (aka career) "

The issues you are having are particular to your wife. It sounds to me that your wife just does not have the excess energy for life in general and does not have the skills to handle her own emotions. It sounds like she was like this when you married her, but you married her anyway.

So now you know an important rule about marriage. Anything that bothered you before marriage will not magically improve after marriage. Instead it will get worse and it will other you even more.


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## ScrambledEggs

It really does seem like she is avoiding dealing with some things in her life, even if those things are just feelings with no apparent cause or reason. She might be running from anxiety for example.

I have some anxiety that I have no idea where it comes from. Our demons don't always come with a return/origin label. Oddly enough the healthiest thing for her might be suffer some sort of complete collapse of her ability to cope but I have seen a lot of people go their whole lives without a sort of persona balance and stay functional. Oddly enough, from my view, she has the hardest stuff to get in life and slacking off comes pretty natural to me. I have to fight with it for the career success I have.

Sounds like you have to make her understand how serious this is.


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## CJ.Love

EleGirl - I think you may have misinterpreted what I was trying to convey. I totally get that career women (or men for that matter) bring a number of challenges with them, as this inherent to the stress and responsibilities associated with their work. Most folks I know like this are able to find a work life balance - some go too far on the "wild and crazy" side, some barely scratch out a trip to the gym or a few drinks or a shopping trip out with friends here and there.

My wife seems to not have the capacity to do this. When I met/dated her she was a surgical resident, logging 80+ hours a week with minimal pay, sleep, and semblance of real life. I figured this would get better as she got through schooling and transitioned into a normal medical practice. Unfortunately it hasn't. The hours and stress levels have somewhat normalized compared to residency, but the intense focus and obsessive devotion to the work at the expense of everything else outside have not. 

The anxiety is clearly an issue, as I believe it runs in the family. But she won't address it. Just like she won't consider therapy - individual or couples. Just like she won't talk about any issues we are having, good, bad or otherwise. Just like she won't talk about sex - is clearly uncomfortable with the topic so avoids it, even when sex is good. 

I admit that this is not a sky-is-falling situation - no egregious philandering, abuse, drug addiction, or other massive issue. It feels like death by a thousand cuts. And it hurts more because there are 2 young kids involve that we both love to death.

How can you get someone to make any change, when you yourself have made so many, but that person isn't even open to talking about the mere topic of a change???
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl

CJ.Love said:


> How can you get someone to make any change, when you yourself have made so many, but that person isn't even open to talking about the mere topic of a change???


The best you can do is to inspire change. But if she chooses to not change then there is nothing you can do about it. Your only choice is to decide your own actions.

Are you contemplating leaving the relationship because of this? If so then tell her and let her know that it's that serious. The threat of divorce will often shake a person out of the funk they are in.

What is the chance that your wife is in a depression. It sounds like she might be. That might be another angle, to get her to address the depression.


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## turnera

CJ.Love said:


> How can you get someone to make any change, when you yourself have made so many, but that person isn't even open to talking about the mere topic of a change???


By setting up boundaries in your life and the consequences for crossing those boundaries, and then ENFORCING those consequences if she chooses to ignore your boundaries.


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## VeryHurt

What type of surgeon?
You do realize that her job is beyong stressful?


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## ScrambledEggs

> I admit that this is not a sky-is-falling situation - no egregious philandering, abuse, drug addiction, or other massive issue. It feels like death by a thousand cuts. And it hurts more because there are 2 young kids involve that we both love to death.



With what you have said, the best thing for your kids is probably for you to stay together. It is a problem that she is not putting time into them, but its not like divorce will improve that at all or improve the parenting situation/model. This does not mean you should sacrifice your own happiness, but I think suggesting that you are doing it for your kids is tenable.

You can get a new wife, but you can't replace their mother.


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## turnera

Have you read MMSLP?


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## Thor

CJ.Love said:


> How can you get someone to make any change, when you yourself have made so many, but that person isn't even open to talking about the mere topic of a change???
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You can't.

Your situation is one where you have to be willing to end your marriage in order to have a chance at saving it. In my opinion you have done all you can do with the gentle stuff and with leading by example. If she won't participate in MC, won't read books, won't seek therapy or other solutions (exercise, diet, nutrition) for her anxiety, then she is demonstrating by her actions she is not interested in changing.

Are you currently in IC? You may need some support for this. I think you need to really put it on the line with her that you are at the end of your rope and either the marriage needs to be fixed or it needs to be ended. Perhaps this would provide the rock bottom she has to experience in order to feel a need to seek personal change and growth.

But she might also just say end the marriage. So you have to be ready to do so.

Don't stay for the kids. Imho the kids are a tie breaker. If it is a coin toss on whether you would stay or go, the kids tip the scale to staying. But if your marriage on it's own merits is not acceptable and there is no reasonable hope of it ever becoming acceptable, everyone will be better off in the long run if there is an amicable divorce.


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## CJ.Love

turnera said:


> Have you read MMSLP?


Turnera - I have not read this book - what is it?

So the feedback thusfar has been helpful and insightful, albeit somewhat contradictory, but that's to be expected:

-- mention/threaten the prospect of separation divorce
-- things won't change, it is what it is and just adapt or leave
-- wife needs to address anxiety issues, and/or unearth what is driving extreme work mentality
-- don't leave for sake of the kids - will not make things any better on them
-- set firm boundaries and enforce them hard

My wife isn't a very communicative person, in person, so part of me has contemplated writing a letter or email outlining my thoughts and expressing my feelings on a lot of this stuff. Not with a negative or angry tone, but just laying out the cards on the table and telling her where I'm at here. A past therapist recommended something similar at one point. I know she'd read it, but when and how do I do this, if I do? I don't want to ruin her work day, especially given that patients' lives are in her hands. Thoughts?

As my current therapist says - ideally, I don't want to get rid of and divorce the person, but I want to get rid of and divorce the current marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Married Man Sex Life Primer. Kind of takes NMMNG and ramps it up to real use.

The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011 | MMSL Primer | By Athol Kay | Married Man Sex Life


As for what to do, you have to ask yourself what you're willing to live with as a married man, to ANY woman. The bare essentials. Figure that out, and then tell THAT to her. Tell her if she's not willing to provide even that much, you understand, but you will be forced to move on and find someone who will. She needs to hear that.


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## Thor

CJ.Love said:


> -- don't leave for sake of the kids - will not make things any better on them


My advice is the opposite. I wish I'd left many years ago, because nothing ever changed with my wife. In fact it got worse. The kids would have had two homes, and in theory mine would have been happy and healthy if we had divorced. And, it is quite possible my wife would have been much happier married to someone else, so she would have had a happier home for the kids. But by staying married the kids were brought up in one home which has been dysfunctional.

Divorce is not ideal as far as kids are concerned, but it can be much better than growing up in a dysfunctional home. Remember that your kids are observing you and learning what a marriage looks like. They are not getting a good example.



CJ.Love said:


> -- set firm boundaries and enforce them hard


Yes. This is about YOU and what YOU will accept. She has free choice to do what she wants. You can't force her to be or do anything, and you can't make her change. Boundaries will protect you (and your kids), and _might_ provide the motivation she needs to seek self improvement.




CJ.Love said:


> My wife isn't a very communicative person, in person, so part of me has contemplated writing a letter or email outlining my thoughts and expressing my feelings on a lot of this stuff. Not with a negative or angry tone, but just laying out the cards on the table and telling her where I'm at here. A past therapist recommended something similar at one point. I know she'd read it, but when and how do I do this, if I do? I don't want to ruin her work day, especially given that patients' lives are in her hands. Thoughts?


Could be a good thing, but don't get attached to a certain outcome. This is a NMMNG key point, and if you have leanings towards being a Nice Guy you might need this warning. Your wife may or may not respond positively. A letter may be exactly the right communication method to reach her. But she might also react angrily. Mine did. She took it as a serious affront when I sat her down years ago and read a letter to her.

If you think a letter may be a better way to reach her than having a discussion, go ahead. Just don't expect any particular response. It will be what it is, and you take it from there. Don't get all butt hurt if she reacts negatively.

My advice is to make the letter as positive as possible. Talk about how you love her and want a great marriage and family with her. Talk about your vision of a happy future. Mention that you know you contribute to some of the negative dynamics. Use a lot of "I Feel" statements. Try to avoid blaming. For example, mention that you want to spend more time with her, not that she ignores you and spends all her time at work. Talk about finding a better overall balance for the entire family, not that she has her priorities all out of whack. Tell her you want to go to MC and get things back on track before it is too late.

If there is a particular book you want her to read you could mention it. I would suggest an easy quick book rather than a long book. There are many outstanding relationship books out there but you should start with something really easy which won't intimidate her. 5 Love Languages is one such book I would consider. It is very positive and is not written as rescuing a failing marriage or dealing with serious dysfunctions. Afterwards you can move to deeper books if she is willing.


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## barbados

Mid 30's and the sex life is only twice a year ?? Are you sure she is not cheating at work ? Doctors / nurses are a high ranking group in the "cheating top ten". Something to consider.

You don't really have a marriage / relationship at this point otherwise. You do all the work (plus your job) and you are sexless. Basically you are living like a single parent anyway.

If your W is unable to decrease work load / stress, which may not be possible with her being a surgeon, you may seriously need to consider D.


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## Romance Deluxe

*Is this what I'm in for?*

*OMG!!!*

I searched “doctor” in thread titles because I was pondering over something.

The guy I’m interested in is almost done with medical studies, next year he’ll get his title as an ophthalmologist. But then he has a license for general medical practice as well…

I was a little bit worried however because he seems to love his job with a torrid passion, devoting his whole being to it. The first time we spent some time together (not a date) he received 3 calls from colleagues/family/patients, and it was all about health problems. 

He’s almost always exhausted at the end of the day but even with that he’s ever ready to go the extra mile to help people health wise.

While I adore his big heart, I was worried about the implications this might have on a possible relationship/couple life.

I made the search because I wanted to have an idea what people in this situation were going through, not to judge or stop things with him, but know what to expect.


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## long_done

Very complex topic. Do not marry a high flying career person until you have lived together for a while and understand what day to day routine is like, and you are okay with it.

For the OP - try separation. See if that wakes up your wife that something is wrong and if she will take the initiative to fix things. If not, then divorce seems like the best way out for you, unfortunately.


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## LongWalk

Father was a doctor. Brother is a surgeon. Maybe 12 other relatives who are physicians or health care profs.

The job and family are often in conflict. Doctors are VIPs to some degree. People put their lives into their hands. Moreover, patients expose all sorts details about themselves, their sex lives, addictions, stupid mistakes, etc.

At some level physicians can burn out emotionally. The cost can come at the expense of their own energy to do what they recommend their patients do. The surgeon may cut off the diabetics feet and toes, yet does he eat right and exercise? 

Emotional neglect of family is the same thing. The doctor must tell the spouse that post OP the spouse will have to care for the person who is healing. The physician needs support to survive this life.

Of course many doctors have will power they stand at the operating table for hours, until their urine is dark yellow. Their marriages may be bathed in this pent up toxicity.

If you want to save your marriage, you must lead. The boundaries you establish must force your wife to change.

Since she refuses MC you must either 180 or be blunter.

Please realize that dysfunctional people may erect careers as walls of protection to avoid addressing psychological problems, e.g., family of origin issues. 

What sort of childhood did your wife have?

To start with have you told your wife that you have to do things together? Holiday by the sea, for example.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## alte Dame

The dynamic you describe is very much like the first 20 years of my marriage, only with the roles reversed. A husband with driving ambition, Type A hours and schedule, and me torquing my life and career around his. 

The one main difference in your story is that we have always had a very active sex life. This, I think, probably kept me in the game. We always had the intimacy.

I would suggest starting there. Issue an ultimatum that your sex life has to be seriously addressed and improved. Or else.


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## that_girl

My friend is a doctor's wife. She calls herself the Doctor's Widow...because her life is same as yours.

But if you want change, you gotta talk about it ALL.

You thought things would change but why is that? She is a surgeon...she has to prove herself. It's a busy, crazy life.


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## indiecat

A wake up call perhaps? Tell her you will not continue to live in a celibate marriage. Tell her that you didn't marry her to be her roommate. Get her somewhere she can't run off, like go for drive in the car together. Tell her you are deadly serious on this point. Surgeons respect power so be commanding about it. It is unreasonable and unacceptable for two young people to not be having sex, if that means you schedule it for a certain night a week, then so be it. Whatever works time wise. 

What about family holidays? Does she get time off? When and how much? Do you go away on these holidays so that she can't be called in? 

Date nights? Hire a sitter. Tell her she has to devote the same interest and dedication to her marriage as she does her job, or it's in great jeaopordy. 

I feel that you have trouble speaking up and telling her what you have to have to keep this family together. 

She is taking you for granted big time. She won't change if she doesn't have to.


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## CJ.Love

So my takeaway from all of these messages is to have a real "come to Jesus" talk with her and address all of my concerns and clearly express that my needs aren't being even minimally met, and that I've considered separation or divorce.

I know that she will blame the stress of jobs, of having 2 young kids, etc. No responsibility will be assumed. Meanwhile I've spent years reading books, posting on message boards, seeing 4 different therapists, and working out regularly to address my own personal issues and strive toward a better marriage.

There are a few other elements here that will likely come into play:

-- Body image issues - my wife has never been overly thin or fit, has never put in all that much effort to try to change this, and yet I believe her sense of her body is a root cause of her insecurities. Sadly, and honestly, they have caused my attraction to her to ebb and flow as well. I hate to say it but it's true. I work hard to stay very fit and would expect her to do the same. But she doesn't. Says her body can't change and that it's useless. So she doesn't try very hard to stick to a rigorous workout routine whatsoever. It's a very defeatist attitude, completely ignores my feelings about it (I can't even mention anything body/image/clothing related for fear of getting my head cut off), and as a result has caused me to lose much of my sexual attraction to her.

-- Girlie "stuff" - my wife never cares to do girlie things - shopping, trying new hairstyles, drinks w her friends, etc. She rarely wears makeup or jewelry. She's just not wired that way, yet I would love it if she were, and I've told her many times (to no avail).

-- Talking about sex - it's taboo to her, never wants to talk about it at all - from recapping good sex we have had, to sexual issues, to fantasies, to even saying the word "penis" about my son's private part when he has a diaper rash there, etc. She expects me to do all the talking, initiating, etc because I'm "the man in the relationship and that's how relationships work"

-- Past ED issues - we've grappled with bouts of ED in the past - partly caused by the body stuff mentioned above, part due to some issues
I had with viewing porn years ago (I've since don't aLOT) to address that and it is no longer a major factor in my life, thankfully

So how does one deal w a partner that has body image issues, who won't address them with her partner, who won't take efforts to make any change whatsoever, and as a result it causes sexual desire and attraction to all but go out he window?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor

CJ.Love said:


> So how does one deal w a partner that has body image issues, who won't address them with her partner, who won't take efforts to make any change whatsoever, and as a result it causes sexual desire and attraction to all but go out he window?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Have you read the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. Glover yet? Maybe you already mentioned it but I can't keep all the details straight in various threads.

Anyhow, I see a couple of points related to NMMNG in your recent post. First off, you cannot change her. You cannot control her. You cannot make her understand or feel anything. Similarly she cannot "make" you feel anything. You have to own your own feelings and perceptions as being yours.

So, you sometimes don't find her physically attractive. Go ahead and accept it as true, it is who you are and part of you. It is ok! You are entitled (and I literally mean you are *entitled*) to feel attracted or not. You are wired the way you are wired. It doesn't make you a bad or defective person, it makes you *normal*. This is one of those dark side things Doc Glover talks about. Embrace your dark side.

Secondly, you cannot change her! You have worked hard at improving yourself. You have sought out information via books, and you have worked hard at therapy. Your responsibility to the marriage is to be he best person you can. Your wife has the same responsibility, to be the best person she can.

It isn't your job to be her therapist, and you cannot control her. The most you can do is inform her of your concerns, your desires, your expectations, and your boundaries. She then chooses either to work at improving or she chooses not to.

You can make an appointment with a marriage therapist, and then invite your wife. She may say no, or she may show up. My wife refused to even entertain the idea of marriage therapy (my wife is a licensed psychologist!) but when I told her of the appointment she magically found time to be there.

That's it. You figure out what your line in the sand is. You communicate with your wife about the marriage. If she can't or won't step up, you choose to leave the relationship.


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## turnera

CJ.Love said:


> So my takeaway from all of these messages is to have a real "come to Jesus" talk with her and address all of my concerns and clearly express that my needs aren't being even minimally met, and that I've considered separation or divorce.
> 
> I know that she will blame the stress of jobs, of having 2 young kids, etc. No responsibility will be assumed.


You're not getting it yet. You don't CARE if she assumes responsibility. You aren't TELLING her to assume responsibility. You are merely telling her what YOU will do (the consequence to...) if you stay any longer in a one-sided marriage when you have decided you won't (...your boundary).

This boundary/consequence thing takes the whole situation out of the realm of he said/she said and disables one's ability to duke it out. She's free to kick and scream all she wants that YOU aren't being good enough to HER and therefore that's why she won't meet your needs. Great. Let her. Still doesn't change how YOU feel about being in an empty marriage. 

The one concession I can see is telling her that, if she does decide she wants to work on the marriage, you're more than willing to hear her half and hear why she isn't happy (if so) and take a good hard look at your own actions and change any that need changing; after all, that's what you're asking her to do.

Beyond that, however...no need. You state what you will and won't accept in a marriage from the other person and then you sit back and let her decide if she's willing to work on that stuff. If she's not, better that you know now, rather than later, because you DO intend to have such a partner and if it won't be her, it will be someone else.

Period.

Do you see the difference? You have to approach this from a position of power; that power being your capability of removing yourself from her if she's unwilling to participate. You're not telling her what to do. You're telling her what YOU need in a partner. If she wants to keep you, she WILL address those issues, she WILL go to MC with you and IC possibly to get over her sex hangup, and she WILL work to make you happy.


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## VFW

I'm sorry that you find yourself in this position. I won't tell you to stay or divorce as that is a decision that only you can make. However, I think that you know who she is and I don't think that is going to change dramatically. Her work is the only place where she has excelled in her mind and doesn't know how to do anything else. She may try for a while, but she will shortly revert back, as that is who she is at heart. 

That leaves you with the only option available and that is working on you, making you the best you can be. If she is spending very little time with the family now, it probably will not affect you much one way or the other. Be prepared for the affect that it will have on the children, and seek counseling as necessary.


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## CJ.Love

Turnera - you sum it up perfectly. I just wish it were that easy for me to say and put into practice. My therapist says the same thing - that while I may have my own issues, problems, and demons, I have tried and worked hard to address them, and that my wife hasn't and that she has a lot to lose if I go. I need to get the f'ing [email protected] to just put it all out there as I see it and want it (still envisioning exactly how I want the latter to be).

Lily - I agree with you to some degree, but if this is a sticking point for me what can I do to address it without making her feel shamelessly inadequate and contribute further to existing body issues?

Also -- my wife seems to always be a conversation away from crying, tears, meltdowns. Whether it's feeling inadequate about her image/body, her ability to be a mother active in her kids' loves due to work, her own work struggles. The combination of this + her constant tiredness makes me think there is some degree of depression going on....but anytime I've ever raised it she'll always blame sleep deprivation from work/kids over the years. I don't agree with that but will never win the argument.

Honestly, I am incredibly torn - I cannot even fathom a split home for my wonderful children, and blowing up much of what my wife and I have worked hard to build together. But I cannot envision staying in a relationship where sex is nonexistent, spouse is constantly tired/sad, and living life with someone who self admittedly says she doesn't know how to relax or have much fun. 

It's a purgatory from hell, as ironic as that sounds.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Well, if you don't want to move out, you could tell her you're done pursuing her and you'll start living your own life, complete with dating other women, from the comfort of y'all's home.


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## Thor

I can't remember if I asked you this yet. Does your wife have a history of child sex abuse, or teen rape, a parent with substance abuse, or other abusive situation in her past?


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## turnera

And if you're afraid to stand up to her, write her a letter.


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## clipclop2

So she is an over-achiever.

And she bought into the bull that women can have it all.

We can't. Nobody can.

I struggle with work life balance as well. I get it. But something she can never do is get back this time with the kids. Progressing more slowly at work isn't a sign off failure. Success would look like someone who is in charge of their career instead of someone whose career is in charge of them.

Not to mention of she is tired all the time it won't be long before she makes a costly mistake. Patient safety must be her number one concern if she is a good doctor and she can't be a good doctor if she is tired all the time.

Can her parents talk to her? Her friends?

I think you are right to put your foot down. It is best for everyone, including her patients.

It seems like she could really use some therapy and a mentor at work who can help her with achieving a more satisfying life. I bet she is very independent and doesn't like to ask for help though...


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## CJ.Love

Thor - no history of any abuse as far as I'm aware.

ClipClop - I have debated reaching out to her parents and sister on this. Perhaps to stage some sort of soft "intervention" -- part of me feels like this would shatter their image of me, their daughter, and our marriage. But part of me feels as if they'd be happy and willing to help.

On a side note, today really pushed me over the edge. My wife pushed so hard for a family vacation this summer, but in her traditional fashion, took complete control of the situation in booking the trip, and rushed to get it on the calendar asap. It was booked in January, and she simply told me the dates to take off, since she was requesting them off at her own job.

Well we get a call today from the resort asking why we're not there. My wife tried to argue that next week was the vacation, but the resort said this week was the vacation, pointed her to the agreement she signed outlining the dates. They also couldn't refund us or reschedule at this stage, and so not only do we eat the cost of a huge trip, but we forego a family vacation this year

This was clearly yet another case of my wife being overtired, overworked, burnt out, and simply missing things - BIG things. What bothers me most is that this directly impacts us as a family - valuable time and memories gone, simply because she is so stretched and frazzled that she can't even get her vacation week dates right (!!). 

This is simply unsustainable and not healthy for us as a family, or me as a spouse. I feel like I could be a better parent to my 2 sons on my own, albeit part time. But I also get concerned as to how she could manage 2 kids on her own, even for just a few days a week.

We (really, me) are quickly moving toward a breaking point. Something major has to give, and I can only do so much on my end. I am prepared for the worst consequences and a small part of me actually wishes we went that route. We will have to see how this plays out...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

What it looks like to ME is two people who won't take the time to sit down once a month to get your calendars aligned.

All too easy to blame it all on her. Where were YOU in planning this all out and adding it to your calendar?


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## LongWalk

Come on, Turnera, this was a mess up created by the person who booked the trip. However, the blame needs sharing. OP should have been reviewing the info to prepare for the trip. But regardless of the proportion of blame 60/40 or 70/30, this marriage is in big trouble.

OP bears responsibility for enabling his wife's behavior. 

There is no need to forego the family holiday. They should get a cabin by a lake and go. The failure can be transformed into another holiday. OP can come up with a rescue plan.

I went jogging yesterday and today with my brother who is a surgeon. He is not in good shape in comparison with last summer. He works hard and does a large amount of cooking and cleaning. My SIL runs his life. 

She looks very healthy compared with my brother. She is also a doctor but doesn't want to work. My brother lets her be the soccer mom while he is frazzled. He enables her approach.

CJ Love, you should schedule MC. If she refuses to go, file for divorce.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## CarlaRose

I've been your wife - so totally driven, always working, seldom taking a day off, sleep deprived, tired all the time, here but not here. I thought the world would fall off its axis if I didn't go to work. I didn't realize I was neglecting everything else in my life, including my daughter. That was something really awful because I was a divorced single mom.

There was a serious 3 incredibly stupid things I did in one day - the last and final one being a car accident that was all my fault - that made me sit down and recognize that road I was on, and I only did that because my mother had forewarned me less than a week earlier. Just being in her presence for an hour, she could see it in my face and the way I was talking. She told me I needed to take some time off work to get some rest and to get organized. Were it not for her giving me that to think about, I've no doubt I would have kept right on and not bothering to analyze any of it until something really bad happened.

I think there is something your wife is doing to keep up her pace. No one can maintain that kind of pace for 6, 7, 8, 9 years. The breaking point would have occurred by now, resulting in some horrible mistakes/accidents being that she is a surgeon. Either that, or all the mistakes have already occurred, and she has law suits up the wazoo. (In case you haven't, you may want to check into that.) Screwing up the vacation dates is nothing and something anyone can do. I did that same thing myself long after my years of rest-deprived existence. I'm saying she's going to do something detrimental if she hasn't already.

What I'm reeaally driving at is to say I think it's possible she's on drugs. It's not uncommon for doctors and nurses and though they may be regulated and hard to get in the hospital, they still get their hands on them by writing each other prescriptions or whatever it is they do. It might explain some things, like the neglect and being generally incommunicative.


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## Thor

CJ.Love said:


> Thor - no history of any abuse as far as I'm aware.
> .
> .
> .
> My wife pushed so hard for a family vacation this summer, but *in her traditional fashion, took complete control *of the situation in booking the trip, and rushed to get it on the calendar asap.


Good, if there is no trauma in her history.

The extreme control is a symptom of trauma in childhood, but of course there are many other ways a person ends up a control freak. Docs tend to be in charge when they are at work, and it may bleed over into their non-work life. To get through all the school etc to be a doc takes a driven personality.

It could be possible your wife is avoiding something, and has been for a long time. She may be afraid of slowing down and relaxing. She may not remember exactly how or why this started, it is now just a way of life for her.

I think you need to get her into MC with you. And you may need to force the issue by making an appointment at a time she can be available, then tell her about the appointment. If she doesn't go, you go alone.

You should be taking more of a lead in things. It may help her relax a bit at home. At work she has to make decisions and she has to make things happen. If you are _helpful_ at home, she may see you as yet one more assistant she has to supervise.

The book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Robert Glover may be helpful. Also the book "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" is excellent. It is far more than what the title suggests.

One message I think your wife needs to hear is that she is out of control and out of balance. And, it is having a very large negative impact on you and the family. This is not about one vacation getting messed up, it is the entire lifestyle of the family which is messed up. She needs to slow down somehow. Maybe make a job change, or at least find a way to reduce and compartmentalize her job so that it is only one portion of her life.


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## Evinrude58

I agree that counseling could help. If you love each other it would be a shame not to exhaust all possibilities.


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## poppyseed

My relatives are all MDs, surgeons, dentists, gps etc. 

Some have a decent marriage with children and some don't: prone to high conflict marriages ending up in serial Divorce, cheating, purchasing of high class prostitutes, speeding offences, risk taking behaviour, no morals etc. 

It is clear that this marriage isn't quite working out. Your Wife is probably a good Doctor but good MDs are not necessarily a good spouse. Perhaps, you learned the hard lessons in your marriage. 

These bright, high achieving people are very attractive with a highly well paid job, a great status, fast cars, overseas holidays etc..but that does not mean they make great spouses..


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## CJ.Love

Here is the latest update for me:

We went on a family vacation last week (more of a "trip" given 2 little babies, requiring us to sleep in separate rooms due to sleep training, etc.)

We had a few frank discussions about what has been going on, not to a deep level, but my wife admitted the following:

-- She thinks she should workout more and/or see a therapist to address her various issues pertaining to stress, anxiety, and borderline sad feelings.
-- She wants to do more date nights
-- She says she has no time to do anything outside of work/kids and is always exhausted
-- She is obsessed with work and worrying about all facets of it - patient care, workplace politics, busyness, pay, prestige, etc
-- She knows that I'm continuing to see a therapist and work out regularly to address my own issues and combat any bad feelings

This all sounds well and good, but I have seen this movie before. I made sure to portray myself as supportive, loving, and caring for her well being and the after effects it has on our family. I didn't lay or place any blame or make her feel guilty about the trip booking issue, or any other things.

I am going to give her 6 weeks to show progress. Labor Day will be my deadline for this. If I have not seen meaningful effort on her part by then on any number of the above factors, and also on a demonstrated willingness to help out around the house and shift the housework mix from 80/20 toward 50/50, then I plan to tell her that I am thinking we may be better off possibly separating and parenting our children individually. I want to give this one good last shot to see if she can make the steps and progress on her end to change. I'm not really sure she can or will but I owe it to her and to our kids to give it a real shot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Did you tell her that?


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## Blonde

CJ.Love said:


> Also -- my wife seems to always be a conversation away from crying, tears, meltdowns. Whether it's feeling inadequate about her image/body, her ability to be a mother active in her kids' loves due to work, her own work struggles. The combination of this + her constant tiredness makes me think there is some degree of depression going on....but anytime I've ever raised it she'll always blame sleep deprivation from work/kids over the years. I don't agree with that but will never win the argument.


She has two babies (in diapers?)

Post partum depression?

And TBH as a mother who has borne numerous children, your obsession with her weight/body tone after she just bore you two children... it's hurtful. Rebounding back to bridal weight after pregnancy takes some time

She's a surgeon with two babies at home and you want her to do more housework? :scratchhead:

Get an au pair who will help with the children, do housework, and maybe teach the kids a second language.


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## Blonde

CJ.Love said:


> -- Girlie "stuff" - my wife never cares to do girlie things - shopping, trying new hairstyles, drinks w her friends, etc. She rarely wears makeup or jewelry. * She's just not wired that way, yet I would love it if she were, and I've told her many times* (to no avail).


very rejecting on your part... 

there are men out there who will appreciate a serious intelligent successful surgeon wife and I expect when she feels love and appreciation she will have more motivation to take care of herself.

the grass might not be as green as you think once you trade her in for a GNO bimbo. Just sayin'


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## Blonde

CJ.Love said:


> -- As a result of the prior post, I have had to make many sacrifices along the way - first it was shut down much of my social life due to her personality/work demands/tiredness....now it is doing the lion's share (~80%) of the house responsibilities - laundry, garbage, pet care, paying bills, lawn work, etc. *I have had to change jobs to a career trajectory with less upside and pay in order to facilitate her latest job change*
> 
> -- This is now starting to affect child care as well - her demands have started to impact her ability to be there for the kids, and I foresee this being a major issue as they get older - her having to miss games, school plays, activities, etc. Luckily *my schedule is flexible *so one of us will be able to still do this



How much money do you make? 
How many hours do you work?

You have job flexibility, and free time to go to the gym and therapy.



> If I have not seen meaningful effort on her part by then on any number of the above factors, and also on a demonstrated willingness to help out around the house and *shift the housework mix from 80/20 toward 50/50*, then I plan to tell her that I am thinking we may be better off possibly separating and parenting our children individually


 

You are going to ultimatum your surgeon wife with two babies at home about splitting the housework 50/50?

She can do the housework while watching the babies while you are at therapy and the gym I spose :scratchhead:

If I was your wife, I would want to hear how you realized how selfish that YOU have so much free time for therapy and the gym and you want to provide free time for HER to invest in herself... not how you want to arrange for MORE free time for yourself and she should do more housework...

No wonder she is depressed...


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## turnera

Excellent points.


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## clipclop2

If you dont tell her this is her last chance you are being passive aggressive about leaving her.

You helped make the two babies. She didn't get here all by herself.

She is apparently also a pleaser.

Unfortunately I think you used to like being the one she wanted to please. That changes as families grow.

The makeup comment makes me wonder if you aren't just looking for an out.

Is there someone else? You have too much free time.


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## Thor

You might try the book "His Needs, Her Needs" as a last ditch wake-up call for her. Hand her the book and tell her it explains how a healthy relationship works. Tell her that you want a good marriage with her but everything is so out of balance that it just isn't working at all for you or for the family. Offer her support in making changes, such as a job change or at least changing the amount of time her current job requires. Request that she attend MC with you so that together you two can get it figured out.

BTW, many docs around here only work 3 or 4 days per week. There's no reason she cannot cut back her hours and responsibilities. There will be a cut in pay, but she should still earn a very much greater than average paycheck. What's more important, her family or a few extra $$?


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## CJ.Love

Blonde - while your questions have merit on the surface, they assume many things and have a very aggressive and derogatory tone to them. I didn't come to these boards to be lambasted, especially by folks that know a small fraction of my story. I came to find constructive feedback, suggestions, and ideas for how I/we may save our marriage. Insults don't really do much to accomplish that.

Yes, I work. More hours than my wife, with an often volatile schedule. Similar stress levels, albeit in a different industry (finance). Similar education and training (top 5 schools, top graduate schools, rigorous employer/work requirements).

Contrary to your assumptions, I'm not sitting on the beach eating bon-bons. I'm getting up at 6 am or squeezing in a 30 minute workout at the gym 3-4 days a week. I'm seeing my therapist 1-2x a month at 7am before work or early evening Friday when most people are already home from their commutes. Oh, and my wife is usually working at all of these times.

I'm the one who has kept this family afloat both financially and household-wise for 5+ years while she was making peanuts, doing a fellowship in another state, too tired to lift a finger to even check the mail at home, and too distracted to remember to order diapers for her own kids. She herself admits that we would be screwed if I didn't pick up the slack in so many areas.

Imagine you sitting at home staying up late at night reading books and message boards like this trying to find ways to improve and enhance your relationship, while your spouse sleeps through it all not caring. 

Imagine you cleaning dishes, getting groceries, cleaning cat litter, scrubbing toilets, doing yard work, bathing and changing babies, paying bills, investing retirement money, caring for elder parents....while your spouse sleeps through it all or is oblivious to the work that has to be done, and that you are doing to keep the household moving. 

Imagine going to 4 different psychologists over the course of 6 years in 3 different cities, trying to improve yourself and better enhance your own relationship,'while your spouse finds no need or interest in attending but ordering you to go. 

Imagine that in the short timeframe that you both went to a shrink together your wife saying that she has no need or interest in making even the smallest of changes for a partner because "she is who she is and the partner should love her as-is with not a single small change ever needed." 

Imagine bending over backwards to do whatever your spouse would want in terms of clothing, image, sociability....to make your spouse happy....while even the slightest ask in reciprocity is met with nothing but attacks and rage about how one could ever ask such a thing and not accept the person exactly as they are. 

Imagine having a partner who is exponentially more vested in the lives of their coworkers, patients, and patient families than their own partner. 

You have no idea what my life is like and what we have been through over the years, especially pre-kids...so until you do I would ask that you refrain from the sensational chastising and sweeping generalizations about just how bad a person I really am.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67

CJ.Love said:


> Blonde - while your questions have merit on the surface, they assume many things and have a very aggressive and derogatory tone to them. I didn't come to these boards to be lambasted, especially by folks that know a small fraction of my story. I came to find constructive feedback, suggestions, and ideas for how I/we may save our marriage. Insults don't really do much to accomplish that.
> 
> Yes, I work. More hours than my wife, with an often volatile schedule. Similar stress levels, albeit in a different industry (finance). Similar education and training (top 5 schools, top graduate schools, rigorous employer/work requirements).
> 
> Contrary to your assumptions, I'm not sitting on the beach eating bon-bons. I'm getting up at 6 am or squeezing in a 30 minute workout at the gym 3-4 days a week. I'm seeing my therapist 1-2x a month at 7am before work or early evening Friday when most people are already home from their commutes. Oh, and my wife is usually working at all of these times.
> 
> I'm the one who has kept this family afloat both financially and household-wise for 5+ years while she was making peanuts, doing a fellowship in another state, too tired to lift a finger to even check the mail at home, and too distracted to remember to order diapers for her own kids. She herself admits that we would be screwed if I didn't pick up the slack in so many areas.
> 
> Imagine you sitting at home staying up late at night reading books and message boards like this trying to find ways to improve and enhance your relationship, while your spouse sleeps through it all not caring.
> 
> Imagine you cleaning dishes, getting groceries, cleaning cat litter, scrubbing toilets, doing yard work, bathing and changing babies, paying bills, investing retirement money, caring for elder parents....while your spouse sleeps through it all or is oblivious to the work that has to be done, and that you are doing to keep the household moving.
> 
> Imagine going to 4 different psychologists over the course of 6 years in 3 different cities, trying to improve yourself and better enhance your own relationship,'while your spouse finds no need or interest in attending but ordering you to go.
> 
> Imagine that in the short timeframe that you both went to a shrink together your wife saying that she has no need or interest in making even the smallest of changes for a partner because "she is who she is and the partner should love her as-is with not a single small change ever needed."
> 
> Imagine bending over backwards to do whatever your spouse would want in terms of clothing, image, sociability....to make your spouse happy....while even the slightest ask in reciprocity is met with nothing but attacks and rage about how one could ever ask such a thing and not accept the person exactly as they are.
> 
> Imagine having a partner who is exponentially more vested in the lives of their coworkers, patients, and patient families than their own partner.
> 
> You have no idea what my life is like and what we have been through over the years, especially pre-kids...so until you do I would ask that you refrain from the sensational chastising and sweeping generalizations about just how bad a person I really am.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's a tough call I think you have really tried.
It SADLY may be time to throw in the towel you can't keep this up.
I'm so sorry.


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## Blonde

It was your own words about how 

my wife is not like this has never been like this and I have told her repeatedly that I want her to change and be like this 

That comes across extremely rejecting

And your new post above sounds so full of resentment and defensiveness

I'm gonna go with the divorce crowd. If you were my husband I'd rather end it than have you continue pretending and all the while hating and resenting me and wishing I was someone I'm not instead of valuing who I am. 

How much do you make and how much does she make NOW?

My oldest daughter is in residency. I know how demanding residency is with relatively poor wages. My daughter does not have babies adding to her workload. ALL of her $50K resident salary went to pay her med school loans while her software engineer H paid their living expenses and her loans are paid off.

Her plan when she has kids is to work part time. One 10 hour shift as a hospitalist would bring in $1500


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## Blonde

CJ.Love said:


> Yes, I work. More hours than my wife, with an often volatile schedule. Similar stress levels, albeit in a different industry (finance). Similar education and training (top 5 schools, top graduate schools, rigorous employer/work requirements).


Similar MONEY?

H has PhD from MIT and made <50K for 25 years so IME the caliber of the grad school really means nothing about income.

You said you made career sacrifices for flexibility and your wife's job. Ramp your career back up and hire an au pair/nanny for housework and childcare. According to the MMSL advocates around here making a lot less than the W kills her sexual attraction.

But if your still leaning toward trading your W for a GNO bimbo never mind. The more you make the more for the bimbo to piss away on her clothes, make-up, and plastic surgery....


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## farsidejunky

Blonde:

One simple question: is his resentment justified? Please just a simple yes or no.


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## Blonde

farsidejunky said:


> Blonde:
> 
> One simple question: is his resentment justified? Please just a simple yes or no.





CJ.Love said:


> -- Girlie "stuff" - my wife never cares to do girlie things - shopping, trying new hairstyles, drinks w her friends, etc. She rarely wears makeup or jewelry. *She's just not wired that way*, yet I would love it if she were, and I've told her many times (to no avail).


He rejects his wife. She *is not wired that way* but he repeatedly tells her he wishes she was



CJ.Love said:


> Imagine that in the short timeframe that you both went to a shrink together your wife saying that she has no need or interest in making even the smallest of changes for a partner because *"she is who she is and the partner should love her as-is*."


Putting myself in the W shoes, If my H treated me with such contempt for who I am, how I dress and look....

I wouldn't want to have sex with him either.

My guess is his resentments come out of his porn use and comparing his wife with what he's whacking off to (or to a RL OW he's interested in) and are not his wife's issue but his own.


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Blonde:
> 
> One simple question: is his resentment justified? Please just a simple yes or no.


No. He is selfish and shortsighted. He won't realize what he is taking for granted until he loses it.


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## Blonde

CJ.Love said:


> O
> -- Girlie "stuff" - my wife never cares to do girlie things - shopping, trying new hairstyles, drinks w her friends, etc. She rarely wears makeup or jewelry. She's just not wired that way, yet I would love it if she were, and I've told her many times (to no avail).


If you look around TAM, I bet you can find an H with two little babies who hates that his wife racks up the credit cards shopping, dresses to the 9's, and goes out drinking with the girls. That H wishes she would be more mature, maternal, serious, intellectual, and bring in a paycheck.

Maybe you could wife swap and both be happy?


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## Miss Independent

jld said:


> No. He is selfish and shortsighted. He won't realize what he is taking for granted until he loses it.



Can you provide quotes where he is selfish and shortsighted?


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## john117

Slowly contemplating the cosmetics and grooming bills for your girls, Blonde 

Awesome family pic!!! Thanks for sharing.


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## Blonde

LOL John, They were very motivated to earn money by the time they were teenagers. Why would mom *pay* for a haircut when I have perfectly good scissors? :fro:

They learned well to be frugal (household of 10 on <50K). Even the doctor married to software engineer dink (double income no kids) still shops in thrift stores for some of her clothes (and brags about her finds )


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## john117

There isn't enough Drano produced annually to unclog our bath drains :lol:


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## turnera

OP, what I see is two people who really just don't have the same outlook on life. Neither of you is wrong; just incompatible - assuming ONE of you wants the OTHER to change to be like the former. Here's what my two ICs have told me: you can't make your spouse change. You can't make your spouse WANT to change. All you can do, since she has stated unequivocably she won't change, is figure out how to get YOUR stuff, your needs met, without expecting her to change to meet them. Without sitting around waiting for her to change, and getting more and more resentful and disrespectful by the day. In fact, my IC even GAVE me the number for a contractor, so I could stop griping about my H not taking care of anything (like the 5-foot-long hole in the ceiling for 10 years).

You're in the same boat. She's not going to change. She is who she is. I know women like her, who just take things one day at a time, even though planning ahead or being proactive would have saved money, time, and/or effort; to some people, living a stress-free life is more important than stuff like that. That's built into their brains; you ain't gonna change it. Ok?

So you can either keep tilting at windmills and spend the rest of your life stressed, upset, and angry at the straw you pulled, or you can accept that you married someone totally unlike you, and figure out ways to deal with it. Hire a nanny. Hire a housecleaner. Sign your kids up for YMCA camps so they get what their mom isn't providing. Or just divorce her and hope the next woman is what you want.


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## Mr Blunt

> By C.J. Love
> 
> I am going to give her 6 weeks to show progress. Labor Day will be my deadline for this. If I have not seen meaningful effort on her part by then on any number of the above factors, and also on a demonstrated willingness to help out around the house and shift the housework mix from 80/20 toward 50/50, then* I plan to tell her that I am thinking we may be better off possibly separating* and parenting our children individually. I want to give this one good last shot to see if she can make the steps and progress on her end to change. I'm not really sure she can or will but I owe it to her and to our kids to give it a real shot


.


*



By C.J. Love
I am thinking we may be better off possibly separating

Click to expand...

**If you tell her that and she does not change then what are you going to do?*

If you are going to tell her what you printed in bold above and she does not change and you back down then you are going to have little credibility with any other ultimatum you tell her. I would suggest that you not make empty threats.

You have been given some advice on this thread for YOU to do to see if it makes things better. 

*Have you done any of those? 
Are you going to do any of those*?

I am not saying that you have not done a lot already but doing a lot has not produced what you want. How about doing a little more?


There does seem to be some words of hope for change coming from your wife. Your wife has stated several thing below that seem to indicate that she has done some introspection and came up with some very good conclusions and solutions



> my wife admitted the following:
> 
> -- She thinks she should workout more and/or see a therapist to address her various issues pertaining to stress, anxiety, and borderline sad feelings.
> -- She wants to do more date nights
> -- She says she has no time to do anything outside of work/kids and is always exhausted
> -- She is obsessed with work and worrying about all facets of it - patient care, workplace politics, busyness, pay, prestige, etc
> -- She knows that I'm continuing to see a therapist and work out regularly to address my own issues and combat any bad feelings



The above tells me that your wife wants to get better!
If you can try to do a little more to help her and yourself. Reading your posts tell me that you have done a lot but if you can push a little more. It seems that you are on the verge of separating and that would be a shame as you both have some good things going for you and you have children!

*If you wind up separated or divorced you probably want to know that you went the extra mile.*


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## clipclop2

you realize that when you do everything for somebody that getting pissed off because they are lazy is your own fault right? 

low standards and low requirements are usually met with low performance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

spinsterdurga said:


> Can you provide quotes where he is selfish and shortsighted?


Read his opening post. Read the excerpts Blonde picked out.


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## Miss Independent

jld said:


> Read his opening post. Read the excerpts Blonde picked out.



I read the entire thread and I don't see where he is selfish. Maybe I missed it. That's why I asked for specific quotes where YOU (not Blonde) see him as selfish and shortsighted.


----------



## jld

spinsterdurga said:


> I read the entire thread and I don't see where he is selfish. Maybe I missed it. That's why I asked for specific quotes where YOU (not Blonde) see him as selfish and shortsighted.


I see it in the same places as Blonde points out, spinster.


----------



## Miss Independent

jld said:


> I see it in the same places as Blonde points out, spinster.



Actually Blonde points out that he is rejecting his wife. You claim that he is selfish, yet you can't provide quotes to back up your claim...hmmm


----------



## jld

spinsterdurga said:


> Actually Blonde points out that he is rejecting his wife. You claim that he is selfish, yet you can't provide quotes to back up your claim...hmmm


That must be it. Rejecting your wife is a sure sign of selflessness.


----------



## Miss Independent

jld said:


> That must be it. Rejecting your wife is a sure sign of selflessness.



Still you can't provide one (or more) quote(s)? I disagree rejecting her doesn't equal nor support "he is selfish and shortsighted".


----------



## jld

spinsterdurga said:


> Still you can't provide one (or more) quote(s)? I disagree rejecting her doesn't equal nor support "he is selfish and shortsighted".


Fine. We see it differently. And I don't need to see any quotes.


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## CJ.Love

Mr. Blunt - I very much appreciate your comments and thoughts, and they align sharply with why I'm here on these boards, why in going to therapy, and why I'm. It giving up trying to make this work. There are enough signs and evidence that my wife is willing to make some changes to her life to enhance our marriage and that along is enough to keep me going. My goal is to continue to try to facilitate us working toward a more holistic change as a couple over time. We will see if that is possible.

Jid - your interpretation is flat out incorrect and the fact that you can't even back up your own warped view of my situation with any quotes or evidence from what I have written makes any future dialogue between us pointless. I have never ever rejected my wife. If you consider my wishing she changed a few things about her approach to work/life balance, and caring for her mental and physical health "rejection" then so be it. In fact, it's the other way around (I go to therapy, she refuses when I ask to go together...I go to the gym, she refuses when I say it's good for mental well being and mood enhancement, I try to do more around the house to make her life easier, yet she is all over me when I ask her to so a bit more to balance the load, etc.). I would dress like bozo the clown in front of highway traffic if this woman wanted me to if I knew it made her happy. Yet she can't even throw on a pair of earrings or eye makeup when I ask because I think she looks great with it on. Marriage is all about compromise and if that's my reality then I don't see much compromise at all.

Again, I didn't come here to be chastised - I am by no means perfect at all but I came here for constructive advice, feedback, thoughts, and insights from posters' past experiences and lives....yours and Blonde's posts don't even provide destructive responses, just attacks, which to me is simply white noise at this point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

Okay, OP, sorry not to have seemed more helpful. You know your own situation best. Good luck to you and your wife.


----------



## Blonde

CJ.Love said:


> Yet she can't even throw on a pair of earrings or eye makeup when I ask because I think she looks great with it on.


Controlling AND rejecting (and whiny). Way to kill off her sex drive, man!!!


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## turnera

Like I said before, C.J. you want something that she isn't. To please my fiancé, I cut my long hair off to please him, I wore skanky outfits to please him, I gave up my friends to please him. He was thrilled. I was miserable. I dumped his ass.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> Like I said before, C.J. you want something that she isn't. To please my fiancé, I cut my long hair off to please him, I wore skanky outfits to please him, I gave up my friends to please him. He was thrilled. I was miserable. I dumped his ass.


That is why I agree that CJ should divorce his wife. He is so focused on what she is not providing him. Why not free her up to be with someone who can truly love and give to her?

I don't hear any humility, any, Gee, I wonder what I'm doing that is not helpful but I'm just not seeing it? I hear defensiveness. To me that indicates unwillingness to look at his own shortcomings. 

I think she must be exhausted with her demanding job and her little ones. She needs a loving, giving, serving spouse, someone who will nurture her and not have a lot of needs of his own.

I'm really worried for this woman. It sounds like she's just barely hanging on. She doesn't need any more demands on her energy. 

I hope she doesn't have some kind of breakdown.

Getting her husband out of her life should provide some relief, and a chance to calmly and peacefully regroup and direct whatever emotional energy she has on herself, and face and heal her own issues.


----------



## CJ.Love

turnera said:


> Like I said before, C.J. you want something that she isn't. To please my fiancé, I cut my long hair off to please him, I wore skanky outfits to please him, I gave up my friends to please him. He was thrilled. I was miserable. I dumped his ass.


Turnera - that's exactly it. Except I am the equivalent to you. I stopped being social with my friends and arranging get togethers, because my wife felt uncomfortable in those settings even though I'm an extrovert. I changed jobs/careers to keep me at home more with less pay/ upside so she could stay on her career track. I stuck it out in the same well paying but crappy job where extreme volatility and job insecurity was rife, while she pursued graduate studies 6 hours away (we were apart for our first married year). And she subsequently tried 3 jobs in 4 years and is contemplating yet another switch. I continue to take active steps to try to enhance our relationship, but since I'm rebuffed on MC, I go solo and read/post to still try to work on things myself, while she sees no issues.

She's thrilled, I'm miserable, and I'm contemplating dumping her ass. Then let her handle managing a household and 2 kids solo all for the sake of career, without a safety net doormat to pick up every loose ends. The ones who sadly suffer the most are the kids, which is why I still try to see what we can do to turn this ship around.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thor

jld said:


> Getting her husband out of her life should provide some relief, and a chance to calmly and peacefully regroup and direct whatever emotional energy she has on herself, and face and heal her own issues.


My guess is if they divorce she retains her hectic overloaded lifestyle. I doubt she will feel relief, and in fact she may feel even more burdened because she will have to do all the housekeeping, grocery shopping, yard maintenance, car care, and child care (when she has the kids) herself.

Her husband doesn't seem to be asking for unusual needs to be met. He wants to spend time with his wife doing relaxing and interesting things. He wants a little bit of sex. He wants her to be involved with the kids and their activities.

His opening post describes her work schedule as "crushing". He describes himself as doing 80% of the family responsibilities. The kids are suffering from her absence and neglect. Their marriage is sexless. She has no interest in any social activities at all. He has made major career and personal sacrifices, yet she is unwilling to make any changes at all.

A husband's needs are basic. Usually sex, quality time together, shared goals and values, a wife who is genuinely interested in him, and some domestic support. Most men aren't happy being a house-husband or the primary housekeeper.

I believe his wife has some psych issues, and she is running away from any personal connection with her husband and kids. She works brutal hours to deflect from internal anxieties.

There are some answers to help out the husband, but I don't think the wife will change. They could downsize their lifestyle so that they can contract out the majority of the domestic work. Hire a nanny to run the kids around, hire a lawn service, hire a cleaning service to come in twice a week, hire a cook several days each week. Then the husband could spend more time doing things which he finds fulfilling and which don't create emotional turmoil when he is forced to do it himself.

CJ describes himself as a "Nice Guy", and unfortunately there is a strong correlation of pathological Nice Guys marrying pathological women. His wife most certainly has serious issues she is avoiding, and the fallout is this disaster of a marriage and family.

This family needs enormous changes and serious professional intervention if there is hope of a happy outcome as a family.


----------



## jld

I don't think he is an asset to her, Thor. That is why I would like to see him pursue a divorce. 

Do you have children? Would you like to see your daughter married to a man who has said the things that he has said here?

I have a 19-year-old daughter who is very intelligent and very hard-working. She is a chemical engineering major in college and got a 4.0 the whole freshman year. She is talking about going to medical school in a few years.

If she ends up becoming a specialist and working the kinds of hours that this man's wife is working, then she absolutely needs a spouse who is selfless and is going to give to her. To be honest, I think I'm going to ask my daughter to read this thread. 

A woman with a very demanding career and small kids needs a very supportive husband. I don't hear "supportive" in these posts. I'm not talking about external support, things she could pay other people to do. I am talking about emotional support, affirmation of her very self, as an individual, and as a woman.

I think CJ needs a different partner. I am convinced Mrs. CJ does.

She needs a man who is going to point out all the good things about her, to lift her up and build her sense of self-worth. She needs a man who, sensing that she is depressed, puts caring for her and her emotional state first and foremost in the relationship. She needs a man who loves her just the way she is, without trying to improve her to meet his list of requirements. She needs a man who accepts her whole package and is delighted by it.

When you meet a woman's deepest emotional needs, needs that she herself may not even be able to verbalize, she will respond in kind.

I do think that CJ might be able to turn this around, but he would have to have a completely different mindset. He would have to do a 180 in his thinking. He would have to start seeing himself as the problem and not her. He would have to start seeing her list of requirements and start fulfilling those. He would really have to put her first.

The problem is, she may not be able to give that list. She would probably have to work with a therapist to really get in touch with her deepest feelings. In the meantime CJ could start reading books that talk about women's deepest needs. Or he could just listen to people like Blonde and me here. We're trying to help him, but he doesn't see it as help. I don't think that the people who are telling him he's justified are truly helping him and his marriage. 

Although, I do think that pushing him to divorce would be helpful to his wife, so in that sense the advice that he's getting from most people is helpful.

I would tell CJ all this if I were his mother, by the way. I would not let my boys get away with blaming their wives like this. 

And don't forget, _we are only hearing one side!_


----------



## john117

But said aspiring doc working uber long hours should recognize the other spouse's sacrifices and adjust accordingly. That's the theory.

In practice it does not work most of the time. The selfless partner is seen as too domesticated, too beta, etc etc.


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## Duguesclin

CJ.Love said:


> She's thrilled, I'm miserable, and I'm contemplating dumping her ass. Then let her handle managing a household and 2 kids solo all for the sake of career, without a safety net doormat to pick up every loose ends. The ones who sadly suffer the most are the kids, which is why I still try to see what we can do to turn this ship around.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am a little lost here. From what I have read on this thread, your wife spends most of her time at work while you do 80% of the housework. If they are going to suffer, would not you seriously consider raising them yourself? Would not it better for them anyway as you already do 80% of the work?


----------



## Thor

jld said:


> When you meet a woman's deepest emotional needs, needs that she herself may not even be able to verbalize, she will respond in kind.


She isn't home long enough to get any needs met. When she is home, she is disconnected and emotionally absent.

CJ describes years of trying to make things work, so I think he has more than been supportive of her career. He has put in a lot of effort on the home front to keep the household running while she is away at work. He has supported her needs for food, shelter, keeping the kids organized, etc.

I just don't see this as a case of a husband who is doing only barely his share, and who is not attempting to meet the emotional needs of his wife. This is not the typical case of spouses not knowing how to meet each others' needs. This is a case of a wife giving 100% to her job/career while leaving her husband frozen out of any kind of personal relationship with her.

SHE is the one whose life is totally out of balance. SHE is the one who is content with things the way they are, which is very dysfunctional. SHE is the one who is apparently not interested in a normal level of intimacy.

I do agree they both need different spouses. He needs a woman who wants a normal level of emotional and physical intimacy. She needs a man who is happy to be essentially a SAHD with a workaholic wife.


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## jld

Don't forget, Thor, that we have not heard from _her._

I hardly expect him to see himself objectively. Few people do. I totally believe that in his mind, he has done all the right things, and she has responded woefully inadequately.

I think she is dysfunctional, as is he. A dysfunctional marriage takes two, right?

I think she has some serious emotional issues that need to be addressed. I hope she is strong enough to do it. 

His leaving may force that, and get her going on the road to wellness. I surely hope so.


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## Duguesclin

If they divorce, I can foresee 3 scenarios:

1. He gets the kids and finds it very hard to date other women until the kids are much older. She works all the time and stays alone.
2. She gets the kids, works all the time and stays alone. He has time to date other women and find the happiness he desperately wants.
3. They get joint custody and they have to make sure they stay in the same city. He probably can meet someone else, but it starts to get quite complicated. Many very complicated parameters to consider.


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## aug

turnera said:


> Like I said before, C.J. you want something that she isn't. To please my fiancé, I cut my long hair off to please him, I wore skanky outfits to please him, I gave up my friends to please him. He was thrilled. I was miserable. I dumped his ass.


And now you have long hair and no skanky outfits...


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## john117

I have not read the entire thread but I don't see him as dysfunctional. My wife is married to her job although she does enough housework to get a Betty Crocker seal of approval, but at the cost of me raising two girls practically alone - not a bad thing - and being considered a slacker because I only work bank hours - -and still make more than her lolz -

My older daughter observed that in her field most married people are both designers, artists, architects, and the like. Those professions are just too consuming..


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## CJ.Love

jld said:


> I don't think he is an asset to her, Thor. That is why I would like to see him pursue a divorce.
> 
> Do you have children? Would you like to see your daughter married to a man who has said the things that he has said here?
> 
> I have a 19-year-old daughter who is very intelligent and very hard-working. She is a chemical engineering major in college and got a 4.0 the whole freshman year. She is talking about going to medical school in a few years.
> 
> If she ends up becoming a specialist and working the kinds of hours that this man's wife is working, then she absolutely needs a spouse who is selfless and is going to give to her. To be honest, I think I'm going to ask my daughter to read this thread.
> 
> A woman with a very demanding career and small kids needs a very supportive husband. I don't hear "supportive" in these posts. I'm not talking about external support, things she could pay other people to do. I am talking about emotional support, affirmation of her very self, as an individual, and as a woman.
> 
> I think CJ needs a different partner. I am convinced Mrs. CJ does.
> 
> She needs a man who is going to point out all the good things about her, to lift her up and build her sense of self-worth. She needs a man who, sensing that she is depressed, puts caring for her and her emotional state first and foremost in the relationship. She needs a man who loves her just the way she is, without trying to improve her to meet his list of requirements. She needs a man who accepts her whole package and is delighted by it.
> 
> When you meet a woman's deepest emotional needs, needs that she herself may not even be able to verbalize, she will respond in kind.
> 
> I do think that CJ might be able to turn this around, but he would have to have a completely different mindset. He would have to do a 180 in his thinking. He would have to start seeing himself as the problem and not her. He would have to start seeing her list of requirements and start fulfilling those. He would really have to put her first.
> 
> The problem is, she may not be able to give that list. She would probably have to work with a therapist to really get in touch with her deepest feelings. In the meantime CJ could start reading books that talk about women's deepest needs. Or he could just listen to people like Blonde and me here. We're trying to help him, but he doesn't see it as help. I don't think that the people who are telling him he's justified are truly helping him and his marriage.
> 
> Although, I do think that pushing him to divorce would be helpful to his wife, so in that sense the advice that he's getting from most people is helpful.
> 
> I would tell CJ all this if I were his mother, by the way. I would not let my boys get away with blaming their wives like this.
> 
> And don't forget, _we are only hearing one side!_





Jid - do you see her as an asset to me? If so, how? Outside of the surface level checkbox factors of good salary, great career/education, etc. ?

Hundreds of hours of counseling with 3 different therapists in 3 states, countless books, various gym and fitness classes....all costing me thousands of dollars in aggregate.....NOT so I could buff up and drop my wife to find a young bimbo (never at all on my radar), but instead to find answers on my own about myself......and us....since my wife won't go together OR take it upon herself to do just a BIT of her own self searching and introspection, both for her own sake, and the sake of our family.

Again, I view what you're saying in similar light to Turnera's comment, except I put myself in the shoes of this martyred wife you think I'm married to. As the old addage goes - "god helps those who help themselves" and after 9 years of trying to help both of us, it's time my wife tries extraordinary means to help herself of the outlook is grim.

BTW - check the divorce rates for surgeons....hindsight is always 20/20, and of course I thought we'd be different....but there's a reason they rank at the top of broken marriages and families....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

The whole point is that he is being a Nice Guy, a Giver, and then resenting HER for it.

It's not her fault for marrying a masochist.


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## Blonde

jld said:


> And don't forget, _we are only hearing one side!_


So very easy to read between the lines though. I know how I'd feel if my H did this to me


CJ.Love said:


> -- Girlie "stuff" - my wife never cares to do girlie things - shopping, trying new hairstyles, drinks w her friends, etc. She rarely wears makeup or jewelry. She's just not wired that way, yet I would love it if she were, and I've told her many times (to no avail).


His wife said how she feels



CJ.Love said:


> Imagine that in the short timeframe that you both went to a shrink together your wife saying that she has no need or interest in making even the smallest of changes for a partner because "*she is who she is and the partner should love her as-is* ..."


You just really don't seem to LIKE your wife, CJ. I'm reading a book called "Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay" which I saw recommended somewhere on TAM. One of the questions is "do you genuinely like your partner, and does your partner seem to like you?" 

You don't LIKE her. Divorce her. You are not doing HER any favors hanging around stewing with resentment.


----------



## turnera

aug said:


> And now you have long hair and no skanky outfits...


Well, given that that was 38 years ago, not exactly, no.


----------



## Blonde

Duguesclin said:


> I am a little lost here. From what I have read on this thread, your wife spends most of her time at work while you do 80% of the housework. If they are going to suffer, would not you seriously consider raising them yourself? Would not it better for them anyway as you already do 80% of the work?


Yep. CJ should have full custody since his W is so useless around the homefront.

Have fun with that CJ.


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## turnera

CJ.Love said:


> Hundreds of hours of counseling with 3 different therapists in 3 states, countless books, various gym and fitness classes....all costing me thousands of dollars in aggregate.....to find answers on my own about myself......and us....since my wife won't go together OR take it upon herself to do just a BIT of her own self searching and introspection, both for her own sake, and the sake of our family.
> 
> Again, I view what you're saying in similar light to Turnera's comment, *except I put myself in the shoes of this martyred wife you think I'm married to*.
> 
> after 9 years of trying to help both of us, it's time my wife tries extraordinary means to help herself or the outlook is grim.


CJ - you are miserable for trying to twist yourself like a pretzel to get her to give you what you want, is that correct? Trying to be what you are not?

So why is it fair for you to expect HER to do the SAME?

SHE never asked you to do these things. You did them as a covert contract, as all Nice Guys do - you do YOUR action IN ORDER TO get her to do what you want HER action to be. Except you didn't get her buy-in before you did this.

Here's the bottom line - and assuming she's not just out of love with you and couldn't care less about you - she is who she is, and YOU DON'T LIKE THAT PERSON. So you're tilting at windmills trying to mold her into the person you DO like. 

YOU CAN'T CHANGE SOMEONE ELSE. YOU CAN'T MAKE SOMEONE ELSE WANT TO CHANGE. 

Until you accept that, you will continue to be miserable.


----------



## jld

CJ.Love said:


> Jid - do you see her as an asset to me? If so, how? Outside of the surface level checkbox factors of good salary, great career/education, etc. ? I think she loves you, CJ. You have a history with her. You know her. She is the mother of your children. Your life is going to be a lot less complicated if you stay with her and help her.
> 
> But yes, it is going to be up to you. I just don't think she's going to get there on her own. It is going to take patience and perseverance and moral courage. But the alternative may not be a cakewalk, either, CJ.
> 
> You said the sex never was very good. If she's always been like that, why are you complaining now?
> 
> She doesn't cheat, she shares her money with you, she doesn't physically abuse you, and she doesn't suffer from substance-abuse. That is already a good foundation. Not all people can say that.
> 
> Everybody has issues, CJ. Don't fool yourself.
> 
> Hundreds of hours of counseling with 3 different therapists in 3 states, countless books, various gym and fitness classes....all costing me thousands of dollars in aggregate.....NOT so I could buff up and drop my wife to find a young bimbo (never at all on my radar), but instead to find answers on my own about myself......and us....since my wife won't go together OR take it upon herself to do just a BIT of her own self searching and introspection, both for her own sake, and the sake of our family. You can certainly just give up if you want to. Again, I think you are going to have to lead the way. I don't think she's emotionally strong enough right now to even meet you halfway. And again, you do have the legal right to just quit.
> 
> Again, I view what you're saying in similar light to Turnera's comment, except I put myself in the shoes of this martyred wife you think I'm married to. As the old addage goes - "god helps those who help themselves" and after 9 years of trying to help both of us, it's time my wife tries extraordinary means to help herself of the outlook is grim. Again, if you're going to blame her and put the responsibility on her, you probably better off just getting a divorce right now.
> 
> I think for your wife to heal emotionally, she's going to need an exceptional amount of emotional support and compassion and patience from you. You would need to show selflessness. It would not be easy, but I think you would grow from it. And I think your kids would thank you someday, CJ.
> 
> And honestly, I think someday you would thank Blonde and me and Turnera and Duguesclin, for not giving up on *you*.
> 
> BTW - check the divorce rates for surgeons....hindsight is always 20/20, and of course I thought we'd be different....but there's a reason they rank at the top of broken marriages and families....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_ I was thinking about that this morning. The president of my homeschooling group is married to a surgeon. She told me that the divorce rate is over 90%. They also have several kids with health issues, and she has some psychological issues herself. I think she said once that she is bipolar.
> 
> But they have a strong faith, and I think that sustains them.
> 
> What is your support system for not only continuing on in the marriage, but strengthening it? Do you know of a support group for spouses of surgeons, or doctors in general?
> 
> I could ask my friend if she knows of one, or belongs to one herself, perhaps online, if you'd like.
> 
> I sense you would like to hang onto this marriage, if possible. I think it's possible but it's going to require a lot of selflessness, at least for a while, on your part.


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> Yep. CJ should have full custody since his W is so useless around the homefront.
> 
> Have fun with that CJ.


----------



## CJ.Love

You are 100% right I want to hang on, for the kids sake foremost. But also for my wife's. I feel for her and know that there is setting there, there is great possibilty and potential. 

I often joke (to myself, in a nerdy way) that she is an Anakin Skywalker person buried deep down in a hard twisted mechanical shell of Darth Vader scars, coldness, and robotic-ness, all brought on by nearly 2 decades medical schooling, training, cases, deaths, emotional roller coasters, toxic co-worker surgeon personalities,etc. My goal has been to be a "Luke Skywalker" to help her find salvation and see the light. Sorry to go Star Wars dorky here (not my norm).

You reference my needing to find resources or books that talk about how to get to the core of a woman's needs and wants, even if the wan herself can't annunciate what those are. Any and all suggestions on this front would be appreciated - the more specific the better. 

I just did start reading the MMSLP book others have recommended - so far so good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CJ.Love

You are 100% right I want to hang on, for the kids sake foremost. But also for my wife's. I feel for her and know that there is setting there, there is great possibilty and potential. 

I often joke (to myself, in a nerdy way) that she is an Anakin Skywalker person buried deep down in a hard twisted mechanical shell of Darth Vader scars, coldness, and robotic-ness, all brought on by nearly 2 decades medical schooling, training, cases, deaths, emotional roller coasters, toxic co-worker surgeon personalities,etc. My goal has been to be a "Luke Skywalker" to help her find salvation and see the light. Sorry to go Star Wars dorky here (not my norm).

You reference my needing to find resources or books that talk about how to get to the core of a woman's needs and wants, even if the wan herself can't annunciate what those are. Any and all suggestions on this front would be appreciated - the more specific the better. 

I just did start reading the MMSLP book others have recommended - so far so good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

Attaboy, CJ. Now you're thinking right! :smthumbup:

I'll be back later with some more thoughts . . .


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## john117

CJ, take it from me - you can't fix them if they do not perceive having issues, and they don't have issues when they self assess themselves. It's that simple. At best you get an uneasy truce, the occasional family outing, occasional sex, and glimpses of what was.

Among all mortals, I have a good set of qualifications for the fixing job. Yet my wife refuses to go along, projecting her deficiencies on me better than any Mitsubishi rear projection TV I've ever seen.

The only way I can see it happening is to have her (or let her) go off the deep end. Then MAYBE she will snap out of it.... Or realize that she needs help.

That's where role models also help.


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## turnera

That, or you just finally saying I won't stay married like this. Pay attention or we're divorcing.


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## jld

john117 said:


> CJ, take it from me - you can't fix them if they do not perceive having issues, and they don't have issues when they self assess themselves. It's that simple. At best you get an uneasy truce, the occasional family outing, occasional sex, and glimpses of what was.
> 
> Among all mortals, I have a good set of qualifications for the fixing job. Yet my wife refuses to go along, projecting her deficiencies on me better than any Mitsubishi rear projection TV I've ever seen.
> 
> The only way I can see it happening is to have her (or let her) go off the deep end. Then MAYBE she will snap out of it.... Or realize that she needs help.
> 
> That's where role models also help.


^^^Do you see that, CJ? That is called _pridefulness_, and john, my dear friend, my very smart, very funny, very dear friend john has it in abundance, as may his wife. 

If you don't want to end up as resentful as John, CJ, you have to tame that very human tendency towards Pridefulness. You have to look at your own hand in your marital problems. You have to humbly ask yourself what you've contributed to the issue at hand. Search your heart. 

And if you really can't think of anything, ask your wife. And really listen to what she tells you. And ask us.

When you find yourself pointing the finger at her, as the saying goes, realize that there are three pointing back at _you._

Turnera, I just read your comment. Why the hard line? You think it could help to break through her shell, maybe?


----------



## turnera

It depends. Has he really really been telling her for years and years how unhappy he is and she flat out says I don't give a damn? If so, yes, he needs such a hard line as a last result, because she's shown she has no fear of him leaving and this may just be the only last shot he has at waking her up. If instead he's been doing it silently, as Nice Guys usually do, and stewing, she may have no idea how upset he really is, and he needs to follow some of the other advice we've been giving him. MMSLP is a good place to start.


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## RoseAglow

CJL- I am sorry you find yourself in your situation. I know many, many people like your wife: high-achieving, driven, passionate to the point of obsession about their work. My entire career has been working with the top MDs and PhDs doing research in their field. I understand the dedication these professionals possess: the MDs I work(ed) with live and breathe their research. They are always working; even when they are off work or on vacation, some part of their brains are thinking about their work. Their work is a huge part of their life, much more than the average person. It can consume them.

I don't blame you at all for wanting something different. I think you have a perfectly normal preference for someone who is home after "normal" working hours, or someone who is willing to more equally share family life, including child care and house work.

The reality, however, is that you married who is not interested in these things.You are married to someone who is all about her work. From what I can tell from your posts, your wife is pretty clear that she is who she is- she is not going to change this aspect of her. And I think you should believe her. In a way it isn't a choice for her- it is a personality. You can't fake the kind of focus and dedication it takes to be at her level. This is who she is. 

I think your therapist has it backwards. You want to keep the marriage, not the person.

As it's been noted previously, what you are describing is typical for someone in her profession. She is not doing anything out of the ordinary when compared to her peers. 

It is not unusual, even outside of the MD/hospital professions, for one spouse to do the heavy lifting for child care and house work. It is not unusual for a spouse to be away and unavailable for large periods of time- spouses in travel jobs, the military, and any work that involves residency and/or fellowships. 

I am saying all this because you seem so incredibly angry and resentful for your wife for being who she is. I just don't see anywhere in your posts that you like her, let alone love her. 

I don't even see any respect for what she does. For instance, you posted that your job in finance has a similar stress level as her job. That is absurd. Come on, man. Realistically, if your wife makes a mistake someone can die or be disabled. Even if she is a plastic surgeon (vs. say a pediatric oncology surgeon), anytime someone goes under the knife there is a chance of death or worse (horrific, painful, life-long disability.) 

I agree 100% with jld that you are not supportive of her. You might have gone along and you are doing what it takes to keep the household going, but you are resentful about it. 

You say you have never had a great sex life and now it is non-existent. You speak so angrily and disrespectfully towards your wife that I wonder if you are the person who has mostly turned off the sex. I wonder if you are so turned off by her that you are just not interested. On the other hand, I know I would never sleep with anyone who spoke about me the way you speak about your wife, so maybe she is the one who turned it off; I suspect though that neither of you are reaching out and trying. Hopefully I am wrong on that.

I hope you can work through your resentment so you think clearly. Right now you and your wife are at odds. I don't think you are wrong for wanting what you want, and I don't think your wife is a bad person for being who she is. I hope you two can work on a win-win.


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## jld

Okay, longest post ever, even for me . . . 

I'm really concerned, CJ, when I hear that you feel like she's often close to crying or meltdowns. She's very stressed. I understand why people are encouraging you to use an ultimatum to provoke change, but I think that's risky. Yes, it may break through her shell, her insides may come spilling out, and you may be able to connect on a very vulnerable level. Or she may just fall apart. She just seems very fragile to me.

I think the ultimatum approach, the hardline, may be more appropriate for very serious infractions, like sexual or financial infidelity. Here I would like to see you take a softer approach. 

I really don't think she can help herself right now. And I think more pressure on her is just adding to her load. 

I would like to see you lower the emotional temperature. Back off from complaints and threats and that sort of thing. That needs to be replaced with nurturing.

I do think the only way you're going to be able to do that is if you first start to nurture yourself. It's good that you take time to exercise and go to counseling. I think you also need to find men in a similar situation that can offer you support. NMMNG mentions how important this is. 

There must be an online group of men married to surgeons. It has to be out there.

You probably won't like this idea but please just consider it: how about taking some time off work and being a stay-at-home dad for a while? 

Okay, calm down.

I only mention that because I just don't know how families manage with two high-powered careers. Your wife is pretty deeply invested in hers, and there is a great earning potential there. I also think it feeds her somehow. Every family that I personally have known where there's been a doctor has had a stay at home spouse, except one. That family had a nanny and they hardly saw their kids. 

I think if you could be that nurturing presence, not only for the kids, but for your wife, you would all feel a lot more relaxed. You would have time in between doing other things to pursue some of your own interests. You could do the reading and the posting that you enjoy. You already seem, beneath the defensiveness that I think we've broken through, to be a caring person. I like that Luke Skywalker model . 

I don't know if this is been mentioned yet, but you do realize you're at a very difficult point in childrearing? When I had all little kids, I was pretty worn out. And I was a stay-at-home mom! 

Fortunately my husband is a very kind, compassionate, committed man, and he did what he was able to be supportive. But those were still rough years! So realize that you're at a very difficult point right now, but it is going to get much easier. It really would be a shame to divorce right now because of all the stress, only to figure out a few years down the road that if you had just hung in there, you could've made it.

If I were you, I would make a commitment to the marriage. I would consider all of the challenges just opportunities for growth. 

In dealing with your wife, I would really encourage you to focus on empathy. Learn the phrases, "Help me understand," and, "How can I help?" First seek to understand. Really try to put yourself into her shoes. Try to see life through her eyes. 

*I don't think she's going to have the courage to confront her issues until she feels safe, and I think that can start with you. You want to make her feel safe with you. You want to earn that trust. I think you'll know that you've earned the trust when she starts to open up about what causes her anxiety. You want to be the person that she comes to, because she knows that she's going to get affirmation instead of criticism, acceptance instead of rejection.*

I think she really needs to know that she's loved for who she is, and not what she does. So I think you need to change the way you're seeing her. Focus on what you like about her. Imagine that she would be killed in a car accident this evening. Think of all the things you would miss about her. When you start feeling frustrated with her, focus on those things. Revert to love and acceptance.

I would also like to see you share your heart with her. Not your anger, not your expectations, but your vulnerable, beating heart. I would like to see you become truly emotionally intimate with your wife. In the words of a famous poster here, "Show your pain, not your fury."

I kind of can't imagine sex as infrequently as you two are having it. I'm hoping that by developing emotional intimacy, mainly by making her feel safe and earning her trust, you can turn that around.

I think she is just very repressed. I'm hoping that a ton of empathy and nurturing can give her the courage to break out.

I know it's a lot to ask of you, CJ. Being a husband, a good, responsible, mature, loving husband, is not necessarily easy. But you are a smart man, and I know in your heart you don't really want to be a quitter. 

And I hope something in here helps you!


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## turnera

CJ, what would happen if you hired a maid to come in once a week, and a nanny to come over every afternoon for 2 or 3 hours, just to help keep things running? You could relax, she could relax, she might feel safer to not have to be on guard around you (since she likely knows how much you hate her right now), and maybe the two of you could be freer to start having some conversations? Lord knows you guys can afford it, if anyone can. Why make all that money if not to spend it to make your life better?


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## john117

I'm prideful in what I have accomplished, but I'm also aware that some things can't be fixed. Like my soon to be scrapped washing machine. Or my wife.

Don't get me wrong. Given enough money and Siemens spare parts the washer CAN be fixed. Likewise, given enough therapy, a less annoying husband, and lots of pharmaceuticals my wife could be fixed too.

But, the washer will be on it's way to washing machine heaven in an hour (Sunday evening delivery? Let's hear it for the retailer) and will not have to put up with my underwear or my kids' massive amounts of college logo apparel (Victoria's Secret Pink - college wear?). Likewise, my wife. Except in a couple years.

Dr. Surgeon is too engulfed in her nip-and-tucks to see the forest for the trees just like Dr. Applied Math here is. Swallow your pride and see if you can make SOME changes. But as time goes on the odds are not in your favor. 

I tried. God knows I tried. And I know how people think. Either enjoy playing Mr. Surgeon Hubs and enjoy the benefits or bail out. 

As to the efficacy of MMSL and the like, I bet Mr. Athol Key would have a field day dealing with an accomplished, prideful spouse...


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## jld

Or you could reach out in empathy, john, instead of waiting for her to come to you . . .


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## EleGirl

CJ.Love,

How many hours a week do you work?
How man hours a week does your wife work?

What % of your joint income do you earn?

I'm just trying to get a better picture of things.


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## SolidSnake

Hello CJ, I'd like to ask you if you have considered getting a cleaner or an au pair as was previouslyly suggested? I know a couple where the woman is a Dr. And they have a au pair. It takes tons of pressure off the working spouses. You have such a high income, you should get weekly cleaning and other help at the very least. There is no reason for you to be doing chores and being resentful about it when you can easily hire some help. 

Schedule a date night once a week or once every two weeks. Persue the rest of the good advice you have been given. 

By the way, what is up with all the posters saying he should just divorce? I think its really presumptuos to tell someone that so early on, especially since simple things haven't even been tried like getting an au pair or cleaner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor

CJ.Love said:


> You reference my needing to find resources or books that talk about how to get to the core of a woman's needs and wants, even if the wan herself can't annunciate what those are. Any and all suggestions on this front would be appreciated - the more specific the better.


Get over to the forums at No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group - Powered by vBulletin !

You are far too oriented towards her. You should be making changes to yourself for yourself. It sounds like you have done the typical Nice Guy quest to figure out how to "fix" your marriage and "fix" your wife. That is the wrong approach. As you can see it leads to disappointment and resentments.

As Doc Glover says in his book NMMNG, your marriage will either improve dramatically or go to a long overdue grave when you get yourself straightened out. As you learn to be truer to yourself you might find you are no longer willing to put up with what you have in the past.

Your wife has told you and shown you who she is. You cannot change her! What you can do is communicate to her how you feel about the way things are, and you can explain your vision of what you would like things to be, and you can tell her your boundaries or limits. That's it.

At this point I think you might benefit from talking to a good therapist about how to communicate these things to your wife, and how to determine your boundaries. And then you have the "come to Jesus" talk with your wife setting it all out there for her. Tell her that you want to have a strong healthy fun marriage with her, and you want her to ______ (fill in the blank) in order to get things on track. Probably MC would be an excellent thing to require of her.

If she refuses MC and refuses to work hard on making changes, you have your answer. While there is always a hope or a potential for great things, the reality may be that she is unwilling and/or unable to make adequate progress towards what you need and desire in a spouse.

Books I'd suggest for you:
"When I Say No, I Feel Guilty". Far more than the title suggests, this book is a superb addendum to NMMNG.
"His Needs, Her Needs". Great book!
"Getting the Love You Want". Also the workbook which goes with it.


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## Thor

jld said:


> You probably won't like this idea but please just consider it: how about taking some time off work and being a stay-at-home dad for a while?
> 
> Okay, calm down.
> 
> I only mention that because I just don't know how families manage with two high-powered careers. Your wife is pretty deeply invested in hers, and there is a great earning potential there. I also think it feeds her somehow. Every family that I personally have known where there's been a doctor has had a stay at home spouse, except one. That family had a nanny and they hardly saw their kids.


I think CJ's basic needs are being met *0%*, and have been met *0%* for a long time. What you advocate is him going further down the road away from his own needs being met.

The only hope I see starts with a total realignment at home, including hiring out a lot of the work CJ is doing. For most men, and it sure sounds like CJ, one of the basic needs is for his wife to take on responsibility for domestics. This can be met by hiring out much of the work, so the wife doesn't have to do the laundry or clean the bathrooms. CJ doing the majority of the domestic responsibilities is likely a huge negative which is unalterably a function of his brain wiring.

CJ also sounds like a typical male who has strong love languages of Touch and Quality Time. He gets no touch (even aside from sex), and he gets no Quality Time.

How can he feel loved by and how can he feel loving towards his wife if none of his emotional needs and none of his love languages are being met by his wife?

Quitting his job and becoming a SAHD isn't going to cause any changes in his wife. She is already getting whatever it is she needs in the way of housecleaning, cooking, and childcare being performed by CJ. How would him being a SAHD unburden her *at all*?

There may well be room for CJ to make some behavioral and attitude changes, but his wife is at least 50% of the dysfunction or mismatch in this marriage.


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## john117

jld said:


> Or you could reach out in empathy, john, instead of waiting for her to come to you . . .



Unreciprocated empathy.....

Here's today's cycling term in honor of my first ever 20 mile ride - with J2. The term is BSO. Bicycle Shaped Object, referring to a bicycle bought at a big box retailer. Looks like a bicycle. Rides sort of like a bicycle, but does not feel right, not like a real bicycle, solid, responsive, communicating. 

My wife is the spousal equivalent of a BSO. She's a WSO. Shaped like a wife, behaves like a wife in some aspects, but does not feel right. Does not feel solid, responsive, or communicating.

No amount of empathy can fix it. I've tried. And tried. I am an incredibly emphatic person by virtue of what I do. 

No amount of empathy will convince a WSO to act like the real thing, just like no amount of care and TLC can convert a BSO to a real bicycle.

Hope you like the analogy . I'm a bit sore and my rear end could use a case of Desitin (or two)...


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## jld

John, you are too funny. . WSO. Lol.

Glad to hear she rode with you again this Sunday.


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## jld

I think it would free up CJ's time, Thor. I think it would relax _him_, and make him more able to nurture _her._

No one really knows the best answer. Maybe taking a really hard line and demanding change, and then divorcing her if she doesn't bring it about, would bring him satisfaction. He could go that way.

I tend to think when you meet a wife's deepest emotional needs, you will get a positive response from her. You might have to be patient, and put a lot of deposits into her emotional bank account, but I think there will be a payoff.

I think she's working awfully hard. And they're both really busy with those little ones. I don't understand why they're doing all those household jobs either.

And I don't know why we're all trying so hard to help high earners for free.


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Spouse of a Doctor - At Wits End*



jld said:


> I think it would free up CJ's time, Thor. I think it would relax _him_, and make him more able to nurture _her._
> 
> No one really knows the best answer. Maybe taking a really hard line and demanding change, and then divorcing her if she doesn't bring it about, would bring him satisfaction. He could go that way.
> 
> I tend to think when you meet a wife's deepest emotional needs, you will get a positive response from her. You might have to be patient, and put a lot of deposits into her emotional bank account, but I think there will be a payoff.
> 
> I think she's working awfully hard. And they're both really busy with those little ones. I don't understand why they're doing all those household jobs either.
> 
> And I don't know why we're all trying so hard to help high earners for free.


Jld:

Let's suppose you are right and him taking those steps leads her to change. What is the ceiling? What is she actually capable of giving? Will she be able to sustain the effort necessary to meet his emotional needs? I am skeptical. She doesn't sound like she ever was great at it. 

I don't see this ending well.


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## john117

Capable of giving and willing to give are two different things... A high achiever may transactionalize everything since he/she is used to getting, not giving.


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Jld:
> 
> Let's suppose you are right and him taking those steps leads her to change. What is the ceiling? What is she actually capable of giving? Will she be able to sustain the effort necessary to meet his emotional needs? I am skeptical. She doesn't sound like she ever was great at it.
> 
> I don't see this ending well.


But he married her, far. They lived together for four years, or dated, so he knew how she was sexually for a long time before he made a lifetime commitment to her. There must've been other things that made up for the sexual lack. I think it would help him to tap into that, to remember why he did that.

If this is all about her meeting his requirements, he may want to just hang it up right now. If she has never been very sexual or been really into her looks or really cared about being in shape, chances are she may never be. If he just really can't stand the thought of not ever having those things in a partner, well, divorce is always an option.

My hope is that he would become stronger in himself, and with that strength, be able to give to her and the kids freely. By giving, I mean acceptance, affirmation, nurturing, reassurance, etc. I think if she felt safe enough, she could start to open up. 

Remember when MEM said that Dug is very calm and almost never angry and that's why I feel so safe with him, far? And then turnera said that when women feel safe, they can be very giving? That's what I am trying to tap into here. I'm very giving with Dug because he meets my deepest emotional needs. He makes me feel very safe and affirmed. I think CJ could do this for Mrs. CJ. It may not come naturally, but I think he could develop it.

We don't know what her limits are, far. That's the exciting part, really. She may end up surpassing his wildest expectations. 

Or he could hang it up right now and get a divorce.


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## jld

john117 said:


> Capable of giving and willing to give are two different things... A high achiever may transactionalize everything since he/she is used to getting, not giving.


I think she's just surviving, John. I think she's overwhelmed and coping the best she can.


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## RoseAglow

CJL, you are getting lots of good advice. I wanted to throw out the examples I've seen as some possible win-wins for you and your wife.

My experience is from working in a top US research hospital, #2 ranked nation-wide in our department, #1 for NIH grants. The best doctors/researchers in the US and the world want to work there. I worked primarily with neurologists and psychiatrists, but also two male brain/trauma surgeons. 

Your description of your wife matches many of the docs I worked with, so I am making an assumption that she is among that particular tribe. It is an assumption- but they have distinct markers so I think she probably is one of that group.

My experience is pretty similar to jld's in that most of the male doctors I worked with were either single or had a SAHW. Most of the women physicians/PhDs I worked with were either single or had a similarly high-powered spouse, but the spouse worked in industry and took the majority of child care/house stuff. I haven't worked with anyone so far who has had a SAH husband.

My main partner, mentor, and great friend is a woman physician. Her husband is a very smart PhD physicist working for NASA. He has taken several positions within NASA, always making sure that the job was 40 hrs/week with a stable schedule.

My mentor left her husband, 2 y/o son, and 6 y/o daughter for two years while she did a fellowship in another country, half-way across the world before I met her. She loves her family and she is very focused on her work. She (and I) worked 12-16 hr days up to 6 days/week for years. Her husband was there when the kids got home, cooked dinner, and in the evenings he was a coach for his kids (both got sports scholarships as well as scholar-based funds for their undergrad.) 

What they worked out was the following: he would do the heavy lifting at home; she would have Sundays at home with the family if there were no big deadlines (usually grant-based or article/book-based.) He got an enormous amount of satisfaction successfully coaching his children. She spent many weekends traveling for their sport, working on her laptop in the stands, taking a break here and there when her kids were playing.

I was in the wedding party for another friend, who is a PhD at the same institution. Her husband also works for NASA (not a PhD though but an aerospace engineer- pretty impressive!) Same thing- he takes the majority of cooking/after work child care. He has his boundaries and has expressed them, and she agrees to them. For them, not only does she work late hours (including teaching night classes) but she also is an iron woman athlete, so she spends extra hours/week training. I think he would relate to you doing the lion's work, but I think he greatly respects his wife and the work that she does. 

One of my and my husband's oldest friends (all since we were teens) is a PhD medical physicist at another prestigious research hospital. His wife is a high-powered actuary(she might actually out-earn him), but works normal business hours. In this case, she takes the bulk of the childcare after business hours. In their agreement, his parents watch the baby for at least one night every 2-4 weekends and he is very hands-on with their daughter when he is home.

Here is an example outside the medical realm. Another one of our oldest friends used to be a high-powered actuary, but then moved herself up to Business Partner at a large company and is in charge of all of the US east of the Mississippi. She is often on trains and planes, traveling the country (especially East Coast.) Her husband used to work normal business hours but lost his job with the political Sequestering that happened a few years back- just as she moved into her current position. Now he works occasionally with his brother at the family construction company and does most of the child care/house work (kids are in daycare/school).

In every case of a successful marriage between two high-powered professionals in my own small sample:
-One of the spouses work in industry (I would consider finance an "industry" job as opposed to medical/academic); 
-Both spouses respect what the other does;
-The Industry spouse willingly, enthusiastically agrees to taking the bulk of childcare/house care;
-The Industry spouse also clearly discusses what s/he needs for this to work;
-The non Industry spouse ensures that the spouses needs are met.

The pattern here is pretty clear. If your line in the sand is "I need to be with someone who is home and who jumps in 50-50", then I don't think your marriage can survive. I personally have that line in the sand, so I will never say it is a bad or unreasonable line. 

If that is truly what you want and need, it doesn't make you a bad guy. It also doesn't make your wife a bad person if she can't give you what you need. You two just are not compatible.

But, if you can accept that she is someone who is going to work most of the time, someone who does a hell of a lot of good, someone who saves or improves lives and you can respect and support what she does- if you can start there, there is a chance IMO.

What are your bottom-line issues? What needs to happen for you to be OK with your marriage? 

You're getting a ton of book recommendations, and I want to throw another one in for His Needs, Her Needs. You can also head over the Marriage Builders website and get the Emotional Needs questionnaire for free. The questionnaire will help you identify your top emotional needs, and that will likely help you figure out what your bottom-line is. It should also help you figure out her emotional needs (even if she doesn't complete it, you can usually suss out and identify them based on her actions.)

I hope you guys can work something out.


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## pidge70




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## pidge70

jld said:


> I think she's just surviving, John. I think she's overwhelmed and coping the best she can.


Have you told John about that awesome book on how to deal with people like his wife? I'd love to see John's response.


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## john117

View attachment 27330


It's for real :rofl:

I've read about two dozen books on BPD, which one is it?


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## jld

Lol, John. It is not a book, but that website (reignitethefire). I don't think it applies to CJ's wife, though. And we don't want to threadjack.

Rose, I appreciate what you are saying, but do you see CJ's wife as emotionally healthy?

I just do not see her able to meet his needs right now. I think the spouses that you reference, who know that they have to meet the needs of their industry spouses, are in a lot better place emotionally than CJ's wife.

I'm just hesitant to believe that he can get her to meet his needs by demanding it. If she could get stronger through his nurturing, I think maybe they could get there. 

But right now, through an ultimatum. . . doubtful.


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## JWTBL

CJ, I just finished reading all these posts, and just want to say, good luck. My ex is a doctor. It is very hard being married to someone who has to give their all to their career and has nothing left when they get home. My resentment built to the point where we no longer had a marriage. Some spouses are good at being married to an overworked professional- I was not cut out for it. I never understood how I wound up married to a doctor- I don't even like or trust doctors- what a disaster. Now he has hooked up with his high school girlfriend who thinks it is great that he became a doctor, since he was such an unlikely candidate. But I could never relate to the whole thing, and he just tried making more money, thinking that it would make me happy, but I didn't want or need more money, I wanted a partner in marriage. Once they get on the treadmill of high salaries, I think it is very hard to ratchet it down. I hope you can figure out a way to improve your marriage, but if your wife doesn't have the energy or desire to care about your unhappiness, there is a problem, and it sounds like you have some tough decisions to make. And for people to say its your fault and you should have known what it would be like to be married to a doctor, that is ridiculous. People who become doctors don't even know how stressful it actually is until they are in it, and then it is too late because it's not likely they can switch careers at that point, being hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and spent 12-16 years or more on an education.


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## turnera

My mom was a nurse, my dad was an engineer at NASA. He told her he wanted her to quit her job and be a SAHM. She refused. He wanted her to wear makeup and jewelry, too; she couldn't be bothered. He cheated and got kicked out. She divorced him. He quickly remarried a woman who wanted to be a SAHM. We hated her guts, but she took care of him, like a woman was "supposed to." My mom was glad to be rid of him, frankly.

CJ, the point is, your goal and her goal are not compatible. Either you accept that, or you stay married and remain miserable, or you divorce.


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## Thor

jld said:


> Lol, John. It is not a book, but that website (reignitethefire). I don't think it applies to CJ's wife, though. And we don't want to threadjack.
> 
> Rose, I appreciate what you are saying, but do you see CJ's wife as emotionally healthy?
> 
> I just do not see her able to meet his needs right now. I think the spouses that you reference, who know that they have to meet the needs of their industry spouses, are in a lot better place emotionally than CJ's wife.
> 
> I'm just hesitant to believe that he can get her to meet his needs by demanding it. If she could get stronger through his nurturing, I think maybe they could get there.
> 
> But right now, through an ultimatum. . . doubtful.


I think his wife has some significant emotional and/or psychological issues. They drive her to great professional accomplishments, but also drive a mountain sized barrier between her and CJ. I don't believe she is capable of being a present spouse within the current structure of her life.

The ultimatum CJ should present his wife is not a list, but rather a big-picture. He should tell her he is desperately unhappy with the status quo, and that he cannot continue like this, and that he wants to work with her to find a path to a mutually fulfilling marriage which also provides a healthy environment to raise the children.

I do think MC is a silent line in the sand. CJ should ask her, several times if necessary, to participate meaningfully in MC. She has to show up and she has to do the assigned homework. If after several requests over a period of perhaps one month she still refuses to attend, he has one card left which is to make an appointment and tell her about it. Then he goes whether or not she does. If a spouse doesn't care enough about the marriage to attend MC at the begging of the other spouse, it speaks clearly and definitively to the fact she simply doesn't care. She doesn't care he is in emotional pain, she doesn't care his needs aren't being met, she doesn't care about the marriage.

But this has to be an unspoken boundary or line in the sand, imho. He makes it clear it is important to him, and he is asking for her active participation. If she refuses, he has his answer that she will likely never change nor ever be interested in the kind of marriage he wants.

She is entitled to the model of family and career that she wants. If the status quo is what she wants, CJ needs to understand it asap so that he can make alternate plans for his own life.

Doc Glover in NMMNG talks about being a Good Ender. When it is clear things are not compatible, end the relationship immediately. Why drag something out that isn't ever going to work well?

I think CJ needs to force a change, which will either result in a positive permanent change in trajectory, or which will result in him clearly understanding that she has no desire to build a different kind of marriage.


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## RoseAglow

jld asked:



> Rose, I appreciate what you are saying, but do you see CJ's wife as emotionally healthy?


I would want more information. I suspect she is as mentally healthy as your average surgeon- which is to say, very dedicated to their job, very focused on their work/passions and not much else, "take charge" personality, does not suffer fools. 

Also, she is early in her career. I would say nearly 100% of the people I worked with, post-fellows and MDs right out of residency- sounded just like his wife. They were very concerned about their performance, the business, how it will work out, how they can do better or avoid a bad eval and this often involved politics, maintaining and improving their prestige, their reputation. It is a very stressful time, it can be "make or break" for several early years because a bad performance or big mistake can eliminate you from the top tier- you can forget about continuing at Mass General. My medical physicist friend got his PhD 10 years ago and only now, this July 1, is done with the critical "prove yourself" period of post-docs and residencies. He finally got his first real position. 10 long years working his a$$ off. He will continue to do so, but even with a big Fail now he will always be able to say "I spent a decade training at Mass General and XX years on the faculty" (Mass General is not his hospital). 

If she is the wreck that comes across in his description of his wife, she will not be a surgeon for very long. I am not convinced that she is as much of a mess as he describes.

Also- I think he throws a lot of noise at his wife. By noise I mean complaints that have quick and easy and often obvious solutions but the person continues to focus on the problem and not the issue. Housework is noise- there are quick and easy and obvious solutions that nearly every poster has asked about. Bill payments are also noise (easy solutions). I think pretty much all of my friends would find his diaper story amusing- most of them could have easily forgotten to order diapers and likely have forgotten much more than that. It is why the other spouse assumes responsibility. It is IMO noise.

When there is so much noise- - it is tempting to give up looking for the signal. She might seem "one conversation away from a meltdown" in his view because she is frustrated with him and is not interested in talking with him; his attempts at conversations are whiny, unpleasant, and unnecessary. His message seems to be it is all her fault, she is a terrible mother and should feel guilty about it. She should change things so she is a better mother who won't forget to order diapers. She will very write that right off as Noise.



> I just do not see her able to meet his needs right now.


I am not so sure about "unable"; I learn towards "unwilling" until/unless further information is shared. It could be unable if she is narcissistic (and that does seem to run among many surgeons) but so far, he hasn't said anything to indicate that.



> I think the spouses that you reference, who know that they have to meet the needs of their industry spouses, are in a lot better place emotionally than CJ's wife.


Since I am not convinced that she is emotionally in a weak place, I don't think she need to be made stronger. I think she probably needs to be re-focused. She is doing what many, if not most, people in her position do, which is to say, focus first and primarily and nearly 100% of the time on work. It is not easy being married to a highly dedicated doctor.


The problem as I see it is that he didn't realize what he was signing up for, and I think he is coming to this realization. I suspect the real underlying issue is that he doesn't want a relationship where everything is hired out, where both spouses work crazy schedules and intense jobs. 

I am not sure whether he actually wants the equivalent of an "industry spouse" so he can ramp his career back up, or if he would like both spouses to be at home and contributing, but he is miserable with what he has now.



> I'm just hesitant to believe that he can get her to meet his needs by demanding it. If she could get stronger through his nurturing, I think maybe they could get there.
> 
> But right now, through an ultimatum. . . doubtful.


I don't see his wife as weak, and as a surgeon who saves lives I doubt she will welcome any "Luke Skywalker" attempt to save her from her cold, cruel "Anakin" heart. She is much more likely to be a "White Knight" than a "Damsel in Distress".

In fact it could be the opposite- he might be too weak for her.

It is the "Nice Guy" (as in covert contract NG) dilemma- from what we can see, he hasn't simply and clearly spoken his truth and/or maintained his boundaries. Instead he tried to "do the right thing": carry the ship, do the work willingly but not happily, do everything he thinks he should do. However, he looks weak for complaining about it. Instead of feeling good and accomplished in his family, he is angry and resentful and lonely.

She will not want to meet his needs if he is complaining over easy stuff, complaining that he isn't in to her, not able to have sex with her, trying to make her into someone she isn't. She will not want to spend time with him if he is unpleasant to be around. She will spend even more of her time doing that things that truly capture her heart and mind and on which her self-esteem is based:her work. 

So- sorry, I am rambling as usual- I don't see him saying "I need this or it will work" as an ultimatum. I see it as him speaking his truth.

The truth is: this isn't working for him. He is very unhappy in his relationship. He needs more than what she is giving him.

This is very different than the things he is writing here. He might not be saying them directly to his face but the message I am sure is loud and clear for his wife: "You are never home. You are a bad mother, forgetting to order diapers and screwing up vacation time with your family. You are a bad spouse who won't even throw on a pair of earrings". I think these are his feelings and he has right to them. However, he is talking about his opinions, his judgement, and all that is noise. She needs the clear signal.

Her truth is: she is going to be focused on work. Even if she were home, she is likely going to be spending a lot of that time with working stuff ticking away in the back of her brain. 

When both parties have the truth of their situation, they can make honest and clear decisions. The OP and his wife are both very smart people. I hope they can find a way towards a solution for them.


----------



## RoseAglow

One more post before I go back to work.

My posts sound very harsh towards the OP, and I don't mean it that way. In truth I think he has hung in there and kept the ship running, and he clearly is trying to find solutions. 

At the same time, it looks clear to me that he has kicked a bunch of holes in the "Love Bucket". He has legitimate and well-earned gripes; I think he will get further though if he finds a better way to handle and express them.

I have some hope for their marriage, I am not ready to write it off and say "'straight to divorce!" It is my hope that if both spouses put it all out there- and this likely won't happen until he lets her know clearly that he is starting to wonder if it divorce is a real option here- which is the truth, not a manipulation or ultimatum- they will find a way to make it work.


----------



## jld

RoseAglow said:


> jld asked:
> 
> I would want more information. I suspect she is as mentally healthy as your average surgeon- which is to say, very dedicated to their job, very focused on their work/passions and not much else, "take charge" personality, does not suffer fools. I agree.
> 
> Also, she is early in her career. I would say nearly 100% of the people I worked with, post-fellows and MDs right out of residency- sounded just like his wife. They were very concerned about their performance, the business, how it will work out, how they can do better or avoid a bad eval and this often involved politics, maintaining and improving their prestige, their reputation. It is a very stressful time, it can be "make or break" for several early years because a bad performance or big mistake can eliminate you from the top tier- you can forget about continuing at Mass General. My medical physicist friend got his PhD 10 years ago and only now, this July 1, is done with the critical "prove yourself" period of post-docs and residencies. He finally got his first real position. 10 long years working his a$$ off. He will continue to do so, but even with a big Fail now he will always be able to say "I spent a decade training at Mass General and XX years on the faculty" (Mass General is not his hospital). That is why I said CJ is shortsighted. There will be a big pay off to the hard work she's doing in the years to come.
> 
> If she is the wreck that comes across in his description of his wife, she will not be a surgeon for very long. I am not convinced that she is as much of a mess as he describes. Agreed.
> 
> Also- I think he throws a lot of noise at his wife. By noise I mean complaints that have quick and easy and often obvious solutions but the person continues to focus on the problem and not the issue. Housework is noise- there are quick and easy and obvious solutions that nearly every poster has asked about. Bill payments are also noise (easy solutions). I think pretty much all of my friends would find his diaper story amusing- most of them could have easily forgotten to order diapers and likely have forgotten much more than that. It is why the other spouse assumes responsibility. It is IMO noise.He is definitely an emotional man.
> 
> When there is so much noise- - it is tempting to give up looking for the signal. She might seem "one conversation away from a meltdown" in his view because she is frustrated with him and is not interested in talking with him; his attempts at conversations are whiny, unpleasant, and unnecessary. His message seems to be it is all her fault, she is a terrible mother and should feel guilty about it. She should change things so she is a better mother who won't forget to order diapers. She will very write that right off as Noise. She is conserving her energy.
> 
> I am not so sure about "unable"; I learn towards "unwilling" until/unless further information is shared. It could be unable if she is narcissistic (and that does seem to run among many surgeons) but so far, he hasn't said anything to indicate that.
> 
> Since I am not convinced that she is emotionally in a weak place, I don't think she need to be made stronger. I think she probably needs to be re-focused. She is doing what many, if not most, people in her position do, which is to say, focus first and primarily and nearly 100% of the time on work. It is not easy being married to a highly dedicated doctor. Maybe we define emotional strength differently. I think it means being willing to confront problems head-on in an open and honest way. Her refusal to discuss issues and leaving marital counseling does not make her appear emotionally strong to me.
> 
> 
> The problem as I see it is that he didn't realize what he was signing up for, and I think he is coming to this realization. I suspect the real underlying issue is that he doesn't want a relationship where everything is hired out, where both spouses work crazy schedules and intense jobs. True.
> 
> I am not sure whether he actually wants the equivalent of an "industry spouse" so he can ramp his career back up, or if he would like both spouses to be at home and contributing, but he is miserable with what he has now. Yep.
> 
> I don't see his wife as weak, and as a surgeon who saves lives I doubt she will welcome any "Luke Skywalker" attempt to save her from her cold, cruel "Anakin" heart. She is much more likely to be a "White Knight" than a "Damsel in Distress".
> 
> In fact it could be the opposite- he might be too weak for her. Thank you for saying it!
> 
> It is the "Nice Guy" (as in covert contract NG) dilemma- from what we can see, he hasn't simply and clearly spoken his truth and/or maintained his boundaries. Instead he tried to "do the right thing": carry the ship, do the work willingly but not happily, do everything he thinks he should do. However, he looks weak for complaining about it. Instead of feeling good and accomplished in his family, he is angry and resentful and lonely.
> 
> She will not want to meet his needs if he is complaining over easy stuff, complaining that he isn't in to her, not able to have sex with her, trying to make her into someone she isn't. She will not want to spend time with him if he is unpleasant to be around. She will spend even more of her time doing that things that truly capture her heart and mind and on which her self-esteem is based:her work. She is trying pretty hard to meet her own emotional needs, since he is not.
> 
> So- sorry, I am rambling as usual- I don't see him saying "I need this or it will work" as an ultimatum. I see it as him speaking his truth.
> 
> The truth is: this isn't working for him. He is very unhappy in his relationship. He needs more than what she is giving him.
> 
> This is very different than the things he is writing here. He might not be saying them directly to his face but the message I am sure is loud and clear for his wife: "You are never home. You are a bad mother, forgetting to order diapers and screwing up vacation time with your family. You are a bad spouse who won't even throw on a pair of earrings". I think these are his feelings and he has right to them. However, he is talking about his opinions, his judgement, and all that is noise. She needs the clear signal.
> 
> Her truth is: she is going to be focused on work. Even if she were home, she is likely going to be spending a lot of that time with working stuff ticking away in the back of her brain.
> 
> When both parties have the truth of their situation, they can make honest and clear decisions. The OP and his wife are both very smart people. I hope they can find a way towards a solution for them. I think he has to be the leader. I think her energy is going elsewhere.
> 
> He is not forced. He can still just divorce. But that will not be an easy path, either.
> 
> I think if he starts to meet her deepest emotional needs, she will respond in kind. His efforts to make her do her share right off the bat have not worked. If I were CJ, I would get going on doing my part, and let her get there as I earn her trust.


----------



## Thor

jld said:


> I think if he starts to meet her deepest emotional needs, she will respond in kind. His efforts to make her do her share right off the bat have not worked. If I were CJ, I would get going on doing my part, and let her get there as I earn her trust.


Which emotional needs does she have which he is not meeting? What evidence is there of her attempting to communicate those needs and CJ not making an effort to meet them?


----------



## jld

Thor said:


> Which emotional needs does she have which he is not meeting? What evidence is there of her attempting to communicate those needs and CJ not making an effort to meet them?


From another thread:

_ . . . meet her deepest needs. To do that, you really have to get to know her. You have to spend time with her, pay attention to her, study her. You want to know her inside and out, what makes her tick.

Use that knowledge. Tie strings of love between you two. Be the one she goes to first with the sorrows of her heart. Be her patient, understanding confidant. Be her rock.

Meeting her deepest emotional needs will earn you her trust. You will become her safe person. She will know that no matter how bad things seem, she can go to you and together you will tackle the problem.

. . . Get to it. Become her hero. _


Thor, she may not be able to communicate them outright right now. And she may never be very verbal.

If they are not having sex, it may very likely be that he is not meeting her emotional needs.

I never said it would be easy. Not all women are easy to communicate with. He has to work with what he has, or throw in the towel. 

I think he is going to continue to be disappointed if he thinks she is all of a sudden going to be 50/50 with communication, just because that is how he thinks she should be.


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## john117

And if her needs are only focused on landscaping, house maintenance, and proof reading the occasional PowerPoint slide for corporate political correctness, then what?

Even my girls agree that j2 has gone off the deep end emotionally in the past year. Absolutely no engaging them other than test scores or grades.


----------



## Thor

CJ describes his wife as absent for a "crushing" amount of time each week. He describes her as refusing to participate in MC, and not willing to attempt to make any changes.

I can't identify any needs she has which involve any form of emotional intimacy with CJ, any sexual need involving CJ, nor any need to spend time with him doing fun stuff. In other words, all I can glean from his posts is that his wife wants to have her own life involving tons of work and have a house and "family" she can drop in on. She needs to have most all of the domestic responsibilities taken care of by others (which CJ is currently doing).

She does not sound as if she has a need or desire to have conversation with CJ, or a need for him to give her gifts, or a need for him to spend time with her.

I think she is fairly broken. Either some form of trauma or family of origin dysfunctions, or perhaps she is just wired by dna this way. Maybe she has some form of Asperger's.


----------



## PS7

When I was in medical school with my wife the surgery resident said….'if you're still married after a surgery residency, it wasn't a good residency program'……

needless to say we went into other specialties bc I could see they were pretty much right.

you're on your own here Bro. noone will really understand your position except you. your wife really handles some heavy stuff, and you have done really well yourself.

you have an advantage here. she's disciplined. but it sounds that you two lack fundamental communication. 

try starting small. make a request. ask what you can do for her to make her life easier or better. make it a game. and grow that sentiment until both all your needs are filled. 

yeah. easier said than done, but that's what forums are all about.

like I said, you're on own.


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## jld

john117 said:


> And if her needs are only focused on landscaping, house maintenance, and proof reading the occasional PowerPoint slide for corporate political correctness, then what?
> 
> Even my girls agree that j2 has gone off the deep end emotionally in the past year. Absolutely no engaging them other than test scores or grades.


Two proud people who will not reach out to each other with empathy, justifying themselves. And the stalemate continues . . .

Your real friends tell you the truth, john. Think about that.


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## RoseAglow

jld, for some reason my quote function is not working (keeps on multi-quoting from ages ago!!).

You said: "Maybe we define emotional strength differently. I think it means being willing to confront problems head-on in an open and honest way. Her refusal to discuss issues and leaving marital counseling does not make her appear emotionally strong to me."

Yes, I am using a different definition for emotional strength; I think of it more as emotional stability or control. Using your definition, I agree that she is not confronting her marital problems head on.

You said: "I think he has to be the leader. I think her energy is going elsewhere."

I agree with this- he is the unhappy one. It is one of those ironies of life that the person who is unhappy and feels short-changed usually needs to be the one to do a lot of work and heavy lifting, at least at first.


----------



## jld

Thor said:


> CJ describes his wife as absent for a "crushing" amount of time each week. He describes her as refusing to participate in MC, and not willing to attempt to make any changes.
> 
> I can't identify any needs she has which involve any form of emotional intimacy with CJ, any sexual need involving CJ, nor any need to spend time with him doing fun stuff. In other words, all I can glean from his posts is that his wife wants to have her own life involving tons of work and have a house and "family" she can drop in on. She needs to have most all of the domestic responsibilities taken care of by others (which CJ is currently doing).
> 
> She does not sound as if she has a need or desire to have conversation with CJ, or a need for him to give her gifts, or a need for him to spend time with her.
> 
> I think she is fairly broken. Either some form of trauma or family of origin dysfunctions, or perhaps she is just wired by dna this way. Maybe she has some form of Asperger's.


Read Rose's posts. The wife is very smart and works very hard and needs a confident, nurturing husband, not a whiny, needy guy. 

If he cannot or will not do the job, he needs to get out of the way and let someone who can, and wants to, do it.


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## pidge70

jld said:


> Read Rose's posts. The wife is very smart and works very hard and needs a confident, nurturing husband, not a whiny, needy guy.
> 
> If he cannot or will not do the job, he needs to get out of the way and let someone who can, and wants to, do it.


Wow! That was rude.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

pidge70 said:


> Wow! That was rude.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is direct. Your real friends tell you the truth. Even when it stings at first.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Two proud people who will not reach out to each other with empathy, justifying themselves. And the stalemate continues . . .
> 
> 
> 
> Your real friends tell you the truth, john. Think about that.



Jld, believe me. She - has - no - empathy. Not for me, not for her kids. 

We are talking emotional zombie. 

It's hard to reach out to someone who sees ALL people (immediate family included) as trying to skrew her (literally and figuratively ). 

Today's schedule: arrive home at 545. Bike ride with DD19 615 till 730. Dinner 730 to 8 just me and the girls. She wanted my insight for a work issue 8 - 930. Wash dishes until 10. Go to sleep without a word.

Wake up at 8 am tomorrow and go to work to meet new team members. Wear nice outfit for after work drinks. 

View attachment 27370


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## Miss Independent

jld said:


> It is direct. Your real friends tell you the truth. Even when it stings at first.



There's a difference between being direct and being rude. You were rude.


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## Miss Independent

jld said:


> needy guy.



You know the op in RL? How do you know he is needy? Again, can you provide quotes to back your claim?


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## jld

john117 said:


> Jld, believe me. She - has - no - empathy. Not for me, not for her kids.
> 
> We are talking emotional zombie.
> 
> It's hard to reach out to someone who sees ALL people (immediate family included) as trying to skrew her (literally and figuratively ).
> 
> Today's schedule: arrive home at 545. Bike ride with DD19 615 till 730. Dinner 730 to 8 just me and the girls. She wanted my insight for a work issue 8 - 930. Wash dishes until 10. Go to sleep without a word.
> 
> Wake up at 8 am tomorrow and go to work to meet new team members. Wear nice outfit for after work drinks.


I know it is hard, john. But you are a smart guy, and you can figure this out.

You want her to reach out to you, or to meet you halfway. But you are the stronger partner. If it is realistically going to happen, you are going to have to take the lead.

John, no one can make your life better but you. Humble yourself and reach out to your wife. She needs your empathy.


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## john117

You can only reach out to people who are willing to accept they have a need. 

You can't manufacture emotions out of thin air for other people.

Leadership? Ain't important enough. She knows I'll do the right thing. She's not going to be a part of it if she can help it.

You're operating under the assumption she can be "fixed". I was like that in my pre-TAM years. I was like, dude, I'm a super hero. Miracle worker. 

Remember the tidbit I wrote about how emotions are created. There's a physical stimulus which causes a cognitive response. 

I still think of Duck when I play "Stairway to Heaven". That's a physical stimulus - the song - and my response thinking what it was like to live dirt poor in the middle of nowhere and love it. Fondness. 

I still think of my flame when I see the Snoopy cartoons "therapy for 5c"... The cartoon triggers that. No kidding. I used to call her Sally Brown. She sometimes called me... You get the idea.

Listening to the Moody Blues - my late brother's favorite. All the good times we had growing up together. 

J2 does not have any such triggers. It's like the past is being scrambled slowly like when a hard drive is formatted.

She wasn't like that 5 years ago, skrew it. I predict a shortage of Kleenex if I go on :lol:


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## jld

John, you are the only one who can solve your problem. I know you love your wife. I know you still care. But your pride is in the way.

You know you can't blame her and also solve your problem. It will not work. And you know that a divorce is going to be messy.

But it is up to you. I can encourage you and give you a little push here and there, but you are the only one with the ability to directly affect her. It really is in your lap.


----------



## Thor

jld said:


> Read Rose's posts. The wife is very smart and works very hard and needs a confident, nurturing husband, not a whiny, needy guy.
> 
> If he cannot or will not do the job, he needs to get out of the way and let someone who can, and wants to, do it.


Right. She needs someone who is basically a SAHD who will take care of everything on the home front so that she can work "crushing" hours at work, and so when she gets home she can do more work on her laptop. CJ can have a job, but she wants him to also do everything at home.

What she needs is not a husband who she snuggles up to on the couch while watching a movie after the little kids go to bed. She has made that clear. She doesn't want or need that kind of relationship.

Her needs are to have the house and finances and kids' activities organized and taken care of so that she doesn't have to do it.

She needs to have gobs of time to devote to her career.

CJ doesn't fit into her needs other than as someone who takes care of all that other stuff she doesn't want to bother with.

I just don't see anything which indicates she has other needs in the relationship, nor do I see anything which indicates she especially cares.

What should CJ do to be more supportive of her. STFU and just do all those tasks? Give her all the space she needs when she gets home? Make sure not to bother her with any of his own needs or desires?


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## jld

Thor, you might want to reread the first half of post #133. CJ has a task in front of him, and will ultimately need to figure out how to tackle it. We cannot give every exact step.

He could read The Way of the Superior Man. It says that you have to make your own mission in life your focus. Your wife can be a part of it, but not the whole thing. I think it is similar to NMMNG in that respect. Detaching the emotional hose, getting more secure in yourself, etc.

He is not appealing to her right now. I think he is the only one that can turn that around.

He could google Meeting a woman's emotional needs and see what he can find.

If he is coming off as needy and whiny and another drain on her energy, things will not improve. I think he needs to find a support group of other men married to surgeons. That could give him specialized help.

I think if he demands that she take half of the responsibility for meeting the emotional needs of the marriage, right now, he is going to be disappointed.

Life is not always fair, Thor. It is not always 50/50. 

And he is not trapped. There is no fault divorce in every state in America.


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## john117

Googling the aforementioned item brought me to the marriage builders site which dutifully reported nearly a dozen needs women have.

Well duh, I can only identify one, possibly two, needs my dear wife needs from me. Domestic support and financial support. Her six figures don't go as far as she would like I suppose 

That's about as many needs as I get fulfilled from her, and duh again, the same ones.

I did a few months in corporate marketing research as part of rotations and learned that in our line of business you can't create demand with ads. The demand has to exist. Same here.


----------



## jld

You know best, john.


----------



## turnera

Thor said:


> Right. She needs someone who is basically a SAHD who will take care of everything on the home front so that she can work "crushing" hours at work, and so when she gets home she can do more work on her laptop. CJ can have a job, but she wants him to also do everything at home.


Huh. Sounds like what a LOT of husbands I know expect of their wives.


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## john117

For the most part it can be balanced - and keep in mind that if money is relatively available lots of things can be outsourced, activities curbed (think Neuklas) and some resemblance of balance can be obtained.

If someone takes the approach that everything has to be done 100% perfectly with enough stupid constraints that waste everyone's time so be it.


----------



## Blonde

Thor said:


> Which emotional needs does she have which he is not meeting? What evidence is there of her attempting to communicate those needs and CJ not making an effort to meet them?


She has communicated her need for acceptance 



CJ.Love said:


> Imagine that in the short timeframe that you both went to a shrink together your wife saying that she has no need or interest in making even the smallest of changes for a partner because "*she is who she is and the partner should love her as-is* ..."


and he expressed contempt and rejection toward that need, not wanting to accept her but to change her (into what sounds like a GNO bimbo)



CJ.Love said:


> -- Girlie "stuff" - my wife never cares to do girlie things - shopping, trying new hairstyles, drinks w her friends, etc. She rarely wears makeup or jewelry. She's just not wired that way, yet I would love it if she were, and I've told her many times (to no avail).


This surgeon mother of two babies in diapers should spend her free time on clothing, jewelry, hairstyles, and out drinking with the girls  :scratchhead:


----------



## Thor

turnera said:


> Huh. Sounds like what a LOT of husbands I know expect of their wives.


Yeah, this is actually a common emotional need of men. They need a wife who will take on the majority of the responsibility for the household tasks. Even if the wife works, he feels emotionally satisfied if she takes on the household responsibilities by hiring a maid or hiring a nanny. He feels emotionally drained if he has to be responsible for the household things, though men typically are ok with doing some of the work as long as it is not their responsibility. e.g. I am happy to vacuum the house if my wife asks me to, but I am not happy to be responsible for keeping track of when it needs to be done.

CJ seems to be a typical man, but I think he could significantly reduce his angst if they hired out a lot of the domestic work. Maid, nanny, lawn service, cook.

CJ's other needs seem to be completely unmet. His wife is described as being absent physically, emotionally, and sexually.

The whole situation is out of whack. Simplification, downsizing, and hiring out domestics would be a good start. But his wife needs to be available to him and provide for his needs, too.


----------



## Blonde

ISTM that CJ wants shallow. OK, take custody of the two small babies in diapers since by your reckoning you do the lion's share of childcare and housework and trade the surgeon for someone who is into shopping, hairstyles, jewelry, makeup and drinking GNO's.

Let us know how that goes for ya.


----------



## john117

If she doesn't spend some time on herself and her family NOW what do you think she will do in 10 years? 20 years?

My girls have seen enough of their MSO (mom shaped object) to know that it all started with two young babies and a mom too busy with her dissertation to be of much maternal use. 

Now, for all she cares, these two young ladies just happen to live with us for the summer. 

Likewise what do you think will happen with OP?


----------



## john117

Duplicate post


----------



## Blonde

RoseAglow said:


> His message seems to be it is all her fault, she is a terrible mother and should feel guilty about it. She should change things so she is a better mother who won't forget to order diapers. She will very write that right off as Noise.


Not only that, a terrible specimen of womanhood. She should be into shopping, hairstyles, clothing, makeup, and going out for drinks with her GF's


RoseAglow said:


> *She will not want to spend time with him if he is unpleasant to be around.* She will spend even more of her time doing that things that truly capture her heart and mind and on which her self-esteem is based:her work.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

I would hate to come home day after day to the resentment, rejection, and contempt. And it wouldn't make me horny, that's for sure.


----------



## Blonde

john117 said:


> If she doesn't spend some time on herself and her family NOW what do you think she will do in 10 years? 20 years?


I noticed you said your W is out for drinks with the coworkers, John. Mrs/Dr CJ isn't out drinking.

Mrs/Dr CJ uses her free time investing in the children and he wouldn't be looking at sharing custody if he is really convinced she is a worthless and horrible mother.



CJ.Love said:


> the little energy, bandwidth, concern, and care left over after each work day* is given to the kids*, not me





CJ.Love said:


> there are 2 young kids involve that *we both love to death.*





CJ.Love said:


> I feel like I could be a better parent to my 2 sons on my own, *albeit part time*. But I also get concerned as to how she could manage 2 kids on her own, even for just a few days a week.


----------



## john117

Just today... 

Her team is spread all over the place - par for the course in her line of work - so every couple months they get together and enjoy. I would be more than happy to see her do that more often since her people skills need help..

Besides she could drink all of them under the table so...


----------



## Blonde

John,

per your quote in my tagline  I don't think CJ would be b!tching on TAM daily if he were getting sex. Nor do I see him as a poor innocent victim of a horrible neglectful wife. He has confessed to telling her repeatedly that he wants her to change into a GNO bimbo (for short)

You have a daughter who wants to be a doctor. I have a daughter who has her MD and is in residency.

Don't project your wife into CJ's situation. Think about your daughter, post med school and residency married with two babies in diapers, and her husband b!tching about her not liking "girlie" things like shopping makeup jewelry hairstyles and GNO's drinking.

How would you feel about it if CJ was your SIL? How would you feel about his attitude toward your precious, smart, intelligent, hard working, overwhelmed daughter/ mother of your grandchildren?

Thankfully my doctor daughter has not had any children yet to tax her energy more than what residency does. Thankfully her husband is kind, supportive, and compassionate.


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## john117

Easy.

If her husband did his share with the babies house etc like I did I would fully expect that she dresses nicely on occasion and has a resemblance of a social life and a family life.

I would NOT accept her becoming, or marrying someone who will become, a career workaholic. You can tell those people.

Also, as her father, I would make sure he passes his interviews (plural) with me before even thinking of marrying my daughter. 

At best, everyone listens to John and they all live happily ever after. At worst, I have expressed my concerns ahead of time and to paraphrase Pontus Pilates (?) I'm washing my hands...

There is no job that requires one to work like that. I could be earning twice the salary if I answered any of the LinkedIn requests from the West Coast tech firms - I'm holding out for a personal request from Zuck or Jony :rofl: - but that would mean working gulag hours and I ain't doing that...


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## Blonde

john117 said:


> Also, as her father, I would make sure he passes his interviews (plural) with me before even thinking of marrying my daughter.








CJ.Love said:


> When I met/dated her she was a surgical resident, logging 80+ hours a week with minimal pay, sleep, and semblance of real life. I figured this would get better as she got through schooling and transitioned into a normal medical practice. Unfortunately it hasn't. * The hours and stress levels have somewhat normalized compared to residency,* but the intense focus and obsessive devotion to the work at the expense of everything else outside have not.


What is "normalized"? And she added not one but TWO babies in diapers. I've had babies in diapers which can be overwhelming in its own right.

So John your doctor daughter works "normalized" hours as a surgeon and has TWO babies in diapers to whom she devotes her energy and time when off of work. Her H has told her repeatedly that he wants her to change- she should be a glam girl- go shopping more, hangout at the makeup counter, deck out with jewelry, go out drinking with her GF's. Your daughter is upset and tells the MC on a rare visit "I wish he could accept me as I am"

Your doctor daughter should bend herself into a pretzel and become someone she is not? 

IMO its disrespectful to resent someone for refusing to change into something they are not. It kills libido to feel resented and rejected by one's SO.


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## LongWalk

Blonde,

There is a lot of territory between being a bimbo and being wilfully unsexy. Usually all women care about their appearance to some degree. Those don't usually lack any sense of fashion.


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## Blonde

CJ.Love said:


> -- Girlie "stuff" - my wife never cares to do girlie things - shopping, trying new hairstyles, drinks w her friends, etc. She rarely wears makeup or jewelry. She's just not wired that way, yet I would love it if she were, and I've told her many times (to no avail).


Did you know that when you married her?


CJ.Love said:


> Imagine that in the short timeframe that you both went to a shrink together* your wife saying "she is who she is and the partner should love her as-is ...*"


I understand her perspective.


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Spouse of a Doctor - At Wits End*



LongWalk said:


> Blonde,
> 
> There is a lot of territory between being a bimbo and being wilfully unsexy. Usually all women care about their appearance to some degree. Those don't usually lack any sense of fashion.


Blonde:

This post is politely saying you are taking a MILE of liberty in your characterization of this thread. 

Is there a whistle of truth in what you are saying? Absolutely. However, the exaggeration train you are riding is drowning out any ability to discern that whistle.


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## john117

Here's an example from my favorite Dr. (Math, not Medicine thankfully )

As she works from home most of the time we are talking worn out T-shirts and yoga pants in the summer, worn out sweaters and sweats in the winter. My girls outright refuse to go out with her. 

For social events or work she has an Imelda Marcos sized closet full of good stuff (if you know what Loehmanns stores were... Or Nordstrom Rack). A ton of money on cosmetics (Estée Lauder). Accessories, jewelry... 

I'm not talking her doing the June Cleaver routine but it's not difficult to dress decently if you already have the expletive deleted clothes...


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## Thor

Blonde said:


> Don't project your wife into CJ's situation. Think about your daughter, post med school and residency married with two babies in diapers, and her husband b!tching about her not liking "girlie" things like shopping makeup jewelry hairstyles and GNO's drinking.


My mother, now retired, was a medical doctor. She gave birth to 3 children in 25 months (my sisters and I are all barely 1 year apart in age). My dad did pretty much zero of the housekeeping - his jobs were lawn care, home repairs, and car maintenance.

My mom worked very part time until all of us were in school, and then she worked only school hours until we were all in at least 5th grade. Then she started working 40 - 50 hour weeks, plus being on call.

During the 1970's she was one of the leading experts in the USA on pediatric spinal injury and brain trauma rehab. She never earned $500K/yr, far from it!

My parents hired out some of the domestic duties, either to us kids when we were old enough or to others such as a cleaning lady and a lawn service.

Now while this is an extreme example, and one more consistent with the 1960's family values rather than 2010's materialistic oritentation, it nevertheless is proof that an MD can choose to prioritize something other than paycheck or professional ladder climbing.

CJ's wife could choose to work 40 or 50 hours per week. She could choose to work a job which only puts her on call one weekend every month or two. She could choose to set her hours so that one evening per week is absolutely off limits to work. She could choose to not work while on vacations.

CJ's wife could choose her husband and her family over maximizing her paycheck or chasing the most prestigious professional appointment.

CJ's wife is also free to choose professional advancement and paychecks over CJ and her family.

I think CJ's task is to inform her that the status quo is not acceptable to him, and to communicate what his needs and desires are. This gives her a fair chance to reevaluate her values and obligations. If she and CJ are not a match, neither one of them should go through life miserable because their needs are not being met.


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## john117

My girls' pediatrician (why you see one at 23 is another story) is married to an MD. She has worked 3 day weeks since we saw her 23 years ago.

Many of the specialists I know work 4 days a week...


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## Blonde

I don't disagree. My daughter plans to take advantage of the flexibility of medicine.

That is a potential point of negotiation if he liked her. 

But CJ dislikes, resents, and rejects the way his wife is wired, so they need to end it.


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## john117

Depending on the phases of the Martian moons my daughter hopes to do psychiatry then work as a forensic psychiatrist (think FBI), pathology (ditto), medical anthropology, do the MD/PhD route, or work in a UNESCO type setting. None of them are the "seeing real patients" variety. She knows she's not the type to work like mom...


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## Blonde

She has some narrowing down to do!!! How about radiology? They can read scans remotely while sitting on the deck of their lakefront mansion. 

My daughter OTH is internal medicine and pediatrics (med-pedes) resident so she will see patients for sure... In a big family practice with multiple providers, there is lots of scheduling flex.


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## EleGirl

Thor said:


> My mom worked very part time until all of us were in school, and then she worked only school hours until we were all in at least 5th grade. Then she started working 40 - 50 hour weeks, plus being on call.


How many hours a week does CJ"s wife work?


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## john117

Let's just say she has her moms empathy (none) and her dad's caustic humor (in barrels). 

If she ever shows up in your provider list RUN


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## Blonde

john117 said:


> If she ever shows up in your provider list RUN


LOL. I've had docs like that. Somehow all my children got enough empathy together with enough backbone to be straight with patients without being offensive. (D30 is the MD, D 26 is a PA, DIL 28 is a PA, D19 is in PA school)


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## CJ.Love

Blonde - I would ask that you have the courtesy to stop posting on this thread. You have repeatedly made grand and sweeping assumptions with not a shred of constructive insight or advice, and your posts take nothing but a severely negative tone. It is overtly clear that you have not an ounce or true insight into what is occurring in my marriage, after 12+ pages of various posts and responses, yet continue to beat a dead horse with your venom and negativity. It is destructive and not at all helpful. Know that I will not read or register any future comments you post.

Everyone else - from Jid to Thor to John to Turnera to Spinster and others - all I can say is "thank you" for your continuing to provide deep and thoughtful advice on my situation. Much of what many of you have written is true, and I will speak to much of it over the coming days as I have more time to review your comments and highlight what is pertinent to where we are right now.

There have been a few developments over the last week that have given me hope - including both of us changing the way we approach communicating, outsourcing some of the household tasks, self development and working out on the part of my wife (to deal with her stress and make her feel better about herself) and my taking a different tact toward finding out more about meeting her emotional needs. I'll explain further in my next post, but there are glimmers of hope through much of this, and some of it is due to suggestions posters on this thread have made.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

My brother is an orthopedic surgeon. He works too much. Commutes over an hour each way. He looks very worn. I am afraid that he is shortening his life. His wife is a pediatrician who has never worked since they had children. 

Now their sons are all close to adult: 19, 17 and 15. She could work and lighten his load, but prefers to play soccer mom.

My brother hates his hospital, so he works an extra day at another one where he teaches residents. This makes him happy. 

My brother's style of doing too much follows what my father did. He worked insanely to avoid family responsibilities, ie interacting with wife and children.

My eldest nephew failed every course his freshman year at the state u. GPA 0.0! He has been told to take a year off. He has a THC problem.

How did this happen to the son of two doctors?

The solution is to send him away to Italy to play soccer for a year.

My father sent me to private boarding school to get rid of his role. He was also sent to boarding school.

People repeat dysfunctional patterns over generations.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## pidge70

jld said:


> It is direct. Your real friends tell you the truth. Even when it stings at first.


And, you two became "real friends" when exactly?


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## jld

pidge70 said:


> And, you two became "real friends" when exactly?


John and I? A couple months ago, wouldn't you say, john?

Dug likes him, too. He thinks, as I do, that John is a smart, funny guy. 

John _is _a smart guy, pidge. He does not feel threatened by what I say. He can hear an opinion different from his own and not feel attacked by it. He is secure enough in himself to do that. 

And he makes thoughtful, interesting posts that stimulate my mind. That is the kind of poster I can respect.


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## pidge70

jld said:


> John and I? A couple months ago, wouldn't you say, john?
> 
> Dug likes him, too. He thinks, as I do, that John is a smart, funny guy.
> 
> John _is _a smart guy, pidge. He does not feel threatened by what I say. He can hear an opinion different from his own and not feel attacked by it. He is secure enough in himself to do that.
> 
> And he makes thoughtful, interesting posts that stimulate my mind. That is the kind of poster I can respect.


I was talking about the OP.


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## jld

Well, CJ, if Blonde is out, I am, too. I think she has_ by far _made the most important contributions to this thread. I think she saved it, actually.

It is often what makes a poster the most defensive that can actually help him the most, if he can push past emotion and look at the substance.

I think your wife is a great gal, and I hope she will stay true to herself. She deserves a supportive, loving, accepting partner. She should not accept anything less. 

Good luck.


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## pidge70

jld said:


> John and I? A couple months ago, wouldn't you say, john?
> 
> Dug likes him, too. He thinks, as I do, that John is a smart, funny guy.
> 
> John _is _a smart guy, pidge. He does not feel threatened by what I say. He can hear an opinion different from his own and not feel attacked by it. He is secure enough in himself to do that.
> 
> And he makes thoughtful, interesting posts that stimulate my mind. That is the kind of poster I can respect.


You give yourself waaaay too much credit.....lol


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Spouse of a Doctor - At Wits End*



jld said:


> Well, CJ, if Blonde is out, I am, too. I think she has_ by far _made the most important contributions to this thread. I think she saved it, actually.
> 
> It is often what makes a poster the most defensive that can actually help him the most, if he can push past emotion and look at the substance.
> 
> I think your wife is a great gal, and I hope she will stay true to herself. She deserves a supportive, loving, accepting partner. She should not accept anything less.
> 
> Good luck.


Way off base. Blonde waded in with guns blazing, with complete a mischaracterization of the OP's concerns. It was inflammatory, not constructive.

Her comments were not from a place of concern, but rather were geared toward taking the OP down a notch. While I often respect and agree with your opinions, jld, you were only a step or two down from blonde. 

I very much understand where the OP stands, as you well know. You have never criticized me to the degree of this OP in posts or PM's, yet I think I have been harder on my wife in my posts. 

He was looking for someone to give him constructive feedback. And that is not too much to ask.


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## pidge70

farsidejunky said:


> Way off base. Blonde waded in with guns blazing, with complete a mischaracterization of the OP's concerns. It was inflammatory, not constructive.
> 
> Her comments were not from a place of concern, but rather were geared toward taking the OP down a notch. While I often respect and agree with your opinions, jld, you were only a step or two down from blonde.
> 
> I very much understand where the OP stands, as you well know. You have never criticized me to the degree of this OP in posts or PM's, yet I think I have been harder on my wife in my posts.
> 
> He was looking for someone to give him constructive feedback. And that is not too much to ask.


:iagree:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor

john117 said:


> My girls' pediatrician (why you see one at 23 is another story) is married to an MD. She has worked 3 day weeks since we saw her 23 years ago.
> 
> Many of the specialists I know work 4 days a week...


Our dentists are a husband/wife team. Their office is open 4 days per week, with each of them working 3 days. They take two significant family vacations every year, so the office is closed for 2 weeks in the summer and then again 2 weeks in the winter.

Yes they take a significant pay cut. But they make enough, and they make their family the priority.


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## Blonde

Thanks JLD.

CJ, sorry you can't hear me for my bluntness. Your own words speak volumes and I'm calling what I see. 

All your gentle validating counselors you have been seeing for years don't seem to have helped your M. I'm not gentle and validating like them, but I mean well.  

I don't think the peeps on the thread helping you collect and formulate more put downs and criticisms of your W are doing you or her any favors, but suit yourself.

Unsubscribing.


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## EleGirl

CJ.Love said:


> Yes, I work. More hours than my wife, with an often volatile schedule. Similar stress levels, albeit in a different industry (finance). Similar education and training (top 5 schools, top graduate schools, rigorous employer/work requirements).
> 
> Contrary to your assumptions, I'm not sitting on the beach eating bon-bons. I'm getting up at 6 am or squeezing in a 30 minute workout at the gym 3-4 days a week. I'm seeing my therapist 1-2x a month at 7am before work or early evening Friday when most people are already home from their commutes. Oh, and my wife is usually working at all of these times.


Could you please clarify something? You say that your wife works grueling hours. But then you say that you work more hours than she does.


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## turnera

Blonde said:


> Thanks JLD.
> 
> CJ, sorry you can't hear me for my bluntness. Your own words speak volumes and I'm calling what I see.
> 
> All your gentle validating counselors you have been seeing for years don't seem to have helped your M. I'm not gentle and validating like them, but I mean well.
> 
> I don't think the peeps on the thread helping you collect and formulate more put downs and criticisms of your W are doing you or her any favors, but suit yourself.
> 
> Unsubscribing.


Blonde, the problem is you aren't 100% SURE that this is their problem. Since she isn't here and you aren't there.


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## john117

jld said:


> John and I? A couple months ago, wouldn't you say, john?
> 
> 
> 
> Dug likes him, too. He thinks, as I do, that John is a smart, funny guy.
> 
> 
> 
> John _is _a smart guy, pidge. He does not feel threatened by what I say. He can hear an opinion different from his own and not feel attacked by it. He is secure enough in himself to do that.
> 
> 
> 
> And he makes thoughtful, interesting posts that stimulate my mind. That is the kind of poster I can respect.



My blush-o-meter just crashed 

In general, If you're threatened or annoyed by what others read, take the time to see if there's any basis for what is being written.

I am not a big believer in "to change your spouse change yourself" theory. Pop-culture psychologists like to convince us that WE are the issue, not our spouses. That is not the case, it's a shared responsibility with the errant spouse usually shouldering the bulk of the blame, yet pop psychs try to convince us it's us.

Think how you react to undesired behaviors. In general highly educated, highly driven spouses have a few traits that make them desirable until the details come up regarding what it takes mentally to be so successful and driven etc. They are used to having their ways and that's it.

All I will tell to OP is that it's likely not going to get better. These are personality traits that aren't impacted by 180's, six pack and, and the like.

Realize how much is feasible to change under realistic expectations and decide whether you can deal with it or not.


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Spouse of a Doctor - At Wits End*



john117 said:


> My blush-o-meter just crashed
> 
> In general, If you're threatened or annoyed by what others read, take the time to see if there's any basis for what is being written.
> 
> I am not a big believer in "to change your spouse change yourself" theory. Pop-culture psychologists like to convince us that WE are the issue, not our spouses. That is not the case, it's a shared responsibility with the errant spouse usually shouldering the bulk of the blame, yet pop psychs try to convince us it's us.
> 
> Think how you react to undesired behaviors. In general highly educated, highly driven spouses have a few traits that make them desirable until the details come up regarding what it takes mentally to be so successful and driven etc. They are used to having their ways and that's it.
> 
> All I will tell to OP is that it's likely not going to get better. These are personality traits that aren't impacted by 180's, six pack and, and the like.
> 
> Realize how much is feasible to change under realistic expectations and decide whether you can deal with it or not.


I think it is less about pop culture and more about teaching us to understand the only person we can truly change is ourselves.


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## john117

Well, ask a real psychologist (even a small appliance psychologist ) what they think of a lot of the DIY pop culture psych books...


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## LongWalk

John and Farsidejunky, 

You are not necessarily in disagreement. An alcoholic has an illness. His or her spouse cannot cure the disease by magic. However, they can attend AA meetings for spouses. Let us say that changing people, including ourselves is easier said than done. However, if someone does make a change, that is a positive example.

Changing a workaholic might be as difficult as a substance addiction.

Freud was sort of a pop psychologist and he was wrong about a lot of stuff. He had some great ideas, too, though.

John,

Doesn't your work involve getting consumers to identify with the products because they contribute self actualization. One buys appliances that, for example, are "green" and being ecologically minded is part of self image. So, are the people who buy the products that fill psychological needs happier? Are they changed?


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## john117

Well...

I draw the line between stuff that has some basis in psych theory (Like AA) and stuff that's basically pulled out of thin air based on "personal experience".

In the case of AA you have the well regarded methods of group pressure to hold the individual accountable, basic goal setting and monitoring, acknowledging one's own Mea Culpas, and the CBT-like repetition of objectives to change, change, change. It has worked pretty well over the decades.

In the case of my customers, true, those few who understand our products (which are a lot more complex than appliances) do feel a "connection". Self actualization is paramount in branding. What makes my job so much fun is that I get to divine this self actualization and its value from my customers.

People are happier after reading the above mentioned books, true, but the long term implications of what is suggested in the book are not considered in the book's value proposition. Think of a book promoting a donut diet book...

Then again...

View attachment 27554


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## LongWalk

The donut diet works if you only eat three a day and nothing else.


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## LongWalk

I think CJLove should pull a neuklas.

Of course if neuklas had succeeded, wouldn't he have returned to let us know?


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## john117

LongWalk said:


> The donut diet works if you only eat three a day and nothing else.



My limit is 12. Wife used to work at Dunkin Donuts in college...

Neuklas is an interesting case. I wish he had provided some more details of any outcome.


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## anchorwatch

CJ, the ignore feature can be very useful. Avail yourself of it.


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## Wolfman1968

OK, I am late to the party here, but feel I need to weigh in.

CJ, you are fighting a very difficult battle here. I interact with physicians, nurses, etc. every day. And, for other reasons, I understand the situation completely.

It is one I hear all the time, but usually the sexes are reversed: the hardworking, perfectionist male physician has little time for his wife and family. Wife complains, feels neglected (except economically, of course), divorces. I see it all the time, and hear it all the time.

You are going up against a professional and personal culture which in most cases, does not change. I have seen it rarely when the physician cuts back to help his (in your case, her) marriage, but most of the time they return to their sins "like a dog to its own vomit."

I see several issues at hand. Firstly, your wife's personal self-image, if anything like the typical hard-driving physician, is one of personal responsibility to the patients at the cost of self-sacrifice. That is the ideal always drilled into the skulls of the physician, and although many physicians fall short, I know many who have internalized this to the extreme. You are included in her self-sacrifice, as her family is an extension of her. The education and training drives this into her. You have seen it yourself during her training period (residency, med school). No sleep, no time for anything else. Are your surprised that this kind of socialization took? And the hours don't actually get better for most specialities--most of the time, the attendings tell the residents that it only gets worse. On top of that, the medical profession rewards the "type A" workaholic personalities. They get kudos from their peers and staff. They are admired by their patients for the sacrifices made on their behalf. There is a lot of positive reinforcement for this behavior that you are going up against.

Furthermore, the medical system tends to select for these overachieving, type A people. Slackers don't get very far, in most cases, and don't get into medical school, or wash out of their residency. Natural selection favors these "type A" workaholics. So, I think you likely have basic, deep-seated personality traits to go up against, which would be the case in most physicians.

Finally, the economic/legal aspects of the medical profession encourage this sort of behavior. As payments for physicians have decreased, there is more and more pressure on the physician to work harder, just to stay at the same level economically, and be able to cover the costs of the practice. Electronic Medical Records, although they have a number of benefits, introduce HUGE inefficiencies for they physicians; the time they spend documenting has increased many fold. The days of the quick dictation are over; now, they must laboriously type or fill out electronic checklists. More and more steps are added by beancounters, hospital lawyers, and bureaucratic organizations such as JCAOH, often which are of dubious value; so the time she spends BEHIND THE SCENES (not necessarily with the patient) increases tremendously for each patient interaction. The pervasive fear of malpractice suits invades every aspect of her day, sucking more time and effort out of every interaction.

So, in summary, I suspect that your wife, if she is like the typical workaholic physician, has many positive reinforcements at work that encourage the workaholic behavior, and face many negative punishments or threats (economically/legally/bureaucratically) if she does NOT continue the workaholic behavior. That is why this is such a difficult issue to overcome. In most relationships that I have seen, it was not overcome.

P.S.: If you haven't done so, I urge you to read a 35-40 year old book, "The House of God." It is a humorous novel, but very very accurately portrays the dehumanizing experience of medical training.


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## JWTBL

Good post, Wolfman - you hit it right on the head.


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## LongWalk

But she is also drawn to this dysfunction.

Doctors actually risk their lives by being exposed to disease. The are trained to forward regardless.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Wolfman1968

LongWalk said:


> But she is also drawn to this dysfunction.
> 
> Doctors actually risk their lives by being exposed to disease. The are trained to forward regardless.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


True. Most docs and nurses I know have had to be checked after being exposed to tuberculosis patients, have gotten needle/scalpel sticks, blood exposure, etc.

I personally know a cardiovascular surgeon who got Hepatitis C from getting poked by the wires they use to close the rib cage (sternotomy wires) after heart bypass. He had to quit operating because he was a risk to infect patients. I personally know a renal surgeon who caught Hepatitis C from performing surgery; she had to undergo Hepatitis C therapy. And how about that doctor in the news who got Ebola virus taking care of people in Africa?

The self-sacrificing culture of medicine includes not only their personal health, but also their home life, family life, etc. become expendable. This is part of what is causing CJ's (the OP's) problem.


----------

