# Where is the line in emotional affairs?



## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

On my husbands phone, I found a voice mail from a divorced female co-worker of his, that started with "Darling" and ended with "love you". Which started an argument. That was two months ago. Now we argue about twice a week with me asking lots of questions. I have not been given any information from him voluntarily. Here is what I found so far on my own. He has text her with messages like "I miss you" and ends his text signing "love" with his name. (this is what he told me they said, since he deleted them before I could read them). He has phone conversations that end with love you too. In person when he says goodbye he gives her a hug, kiss on the lips and tells her he loves her. He told me she said she doesn't date married men. I feel something was said to her before she said this to him. I really don't think they were talking about work and she blurts out "I don't date married men". He admits to flirting with her and said she is a good looking woman. He defends her when I say she didn't respect our marriage and has yet to say anything negative about her. I told him he needed to end this friendship if he wanted to be in a marriage with me. I asked him to call her and tell her he can only have a business relationship with her and to call her on speaker phone, in front of me and not let her know I was listening in. As soon as she answers he tells her I am in the room. So I ended up telling her I didn't want her being this close to my husband and kissing him on the lips and telling him she loves him. She said they were just friends and I was naive to think people don't greet each other this way. She claims she does this with all her friends. I told her she can not use my husband as a surrogate boyfriend, that he is my husband. She ended up crying and telling us to have a nice life. Since they still work together I don't know if he is business only with her or not, and if he might have apologized to her about the phone call. Our last argument I asked why he would repeatedly tell another woman he loves her. He said something about the grass being greener and the fact that I do not initiate affection, (I am not a very forward person with most things in my life, but I am willing to be affectionate when he is initiating), and that I am a sloppy housekeeper that maybe he was fantasizing about her. I asked him why he wouldn't have talked to me about this, instead of starting something with someone else. He says he doesn't know. Am I being naive about his special friendship or has he crossed a line? I still think there is more he has to tell me, but not sure how to get him to talk. Not sure where to go from here.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

line crossed


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Wonder how he would feel if YOU, kissed another man, told OM you loved him and then told your husband "Maybe" you were fantasizing about this OM...hmmm think he might be pissed off?

He mentions the grass is greener shat, maybe he needs thrown over the fence to see what it really looks like, Your husband is putting this OW ahead of his wife, plain and simple.......

Boundaries... what are yours?

Read "Not Just Friends" Dr. Shirley Glass - NOT "Just Friends"

PS read the newbie link at the bottom of this post, will explain quite a bit, gas lighting,blame shifting (making you out to be the bad guy, its your fault he turned to OW, dont buy into it for 1 second). Take the time to really read it all.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Sweet 
you are not naive. She is wrong and your husband is worse. He made certain vows to you and won't honor them. He is going to do what he wants to do. You need to realize that. Lay some divorce papers on him and don't let him browbeat or belittle you. 

You need a husband not a sometimes boyfriend. And, as for that he makes a pizz poor boyfriend. 

Tell him that until he can PROVE that he's done with the OW (his word is not proof at all) then you will divorce. 

Proof:
NC letter
Job transfer so she has nothing to do with him (threaten a visit to HR if necessary)
Recovery of texts and vms

these for a start. At the moment he has placed himself in the driver's seat. Let him know those days are gone - or you are.


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

He is waaayyyy over the line. Kissing on the lips? Telling her "I love you"? Just what type of business are they in....geesh. 

Classic cheaters script, you don't initiate, you're a sloppy housekeeper. Don't let him gaslight, or blame shift. You both share responsibility for problems in the marriage, but he is 100% responsible for his despicable behavior. Recommend you both read "Not Just Friends".


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

I don't know about anyone else, but I've *NEVER, EVER* had a female coworker say goodbye to me by kissing me on the lips and telling each other that we love each other. 

Like Aunt Ava said, this is an affair going by the Cheater Script exactly by the numbers. You have the 

She's Just A Friend Lie
Gaslighting - He's saying she does this with all her friends (Yeah, right)
Demonizing the betrayed spouse and blameshifting
Defending the OW
Telling the OW that he misses her and loves her (ummmm..that's not just flirting)

This *NOT* a "special friendship". This *IS* a full on affair, and it's already crossed the line into a PA because they've kissed......repeatedly. This is likely just the tip of the iceberg. And your husband is not her surrogate boyfriend....he *IS* her boyfriend. 

The worst part of this is that they still work together. For this marriage to recover, they must go completely NC, and NC cannot happen while they work together and *they can easily take this underground*.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Sweet Ginger said:


> On my husbands phone, I found a voice mail from a divorced female co-worker of his, that started with "Darling" and ended with "love you".


It may not be sexual, but it's intimate. It's inappropriate.



> I have not been given any information from him voluntarily.


That's a red flag.



> He has text her with messages like "I miss you" and ends his text signing "love" with his name. (this is what he told me they said, since he deleted them before I could read them). He has phone conversations that end with love you too.


Again, inappropriate.



> In person when he says goodbye he gives her a hug, kiss on the lips and tells her he loves her.


Beyond inappropriate. What's next, a "friendly" BJ? Your husband can kiss you, your children, and his mother on the lips. If he can't remember that list, write it down for him.



> He told me she said she doesn't date married men.


That's just here say. Who knows what she really told him?



> I asked him to call her and tell her he can only have a business relationship with her and to call her on speaker phone, in front of me and not let her know I was listening in. As soon as she answers he tells her I am in the room.


There's a reason for that. So that she knows this isn't the time to start with the phone sex.



> She said they were just friends and I was naive to think people don't greet each other this way. She claims she does this with all her friends.


You're not naive. Nobody greets people this way. And it doesn't matter how much of a slvt this woman is with other men. You only care about your husband. She needs to dial it back with him.



> He said something about the grass being greener and the fact that I do not initiate affection, (I am not a very forward person with most things in my life, but I am willing to be affectionate when he is initiating), and that I am a sloppy housekeeper that maybe he was fantasizing about her.


This is telling. He may, or may not be having sex with this woman. But she's letting him know that she wants him. And that's VERY seductive. The number one complaint from men on the sex board is that their wive's won't initiate. Men want to be desired. If this woman is showing him desire and you're reluctant, then she has a BIG advantage over you.

That's not to say that your husband is justified in going to another woman. He's not. He should be working through these issues with you. But, please let this be a wake up call to you to show you what men like.



> Not sure where to go from here.


It sounds like you told him he needed to choose her or you, and he called your bluff. He won't tell you anything about their relationship. He won't be transparent with you. And he won't refuse to stop seeing her.

So, what are you going to do about it?

Good luck.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

The only coworkers I ever kissed AT ALL were the ones I dated. That woman is stupid to think someone can be so naive to BELIEVE that "everyone does it" garbage. No, everyone does NOT do it. Only those who are dating or trying to date each other do.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You are not naive. I've been in the business world for 30 years and women DO NOT KISS OTHER MEN ON THE LIPS. EVER. It is instant grounds for dismissal in every place I've ever worked. Hell, you can't even touch someone on the shoulder any more without risking a lawsuit.

You need to install a keylogger on his computer and get access to his call/text records.

That said, you DO need to take a good hard look at what you are providing your husband. It's your job, as his wife, to keep your marriage fresh, just as it's his job to do the same. 

Have you read His Needs Her Needs? Get it today.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

strugglinghusband said:


> Wonder how he would feel if YOU, kissed another man, told OM you loved him and then told your husband "Maybe" you were fantasizing about this OM...hmmm think he might be pissed off?
> 
> He mentions the grass is greener shat, maybe he needs thrown over the fence to see what it really looks like, Your husband is putting this OW ahead of his wife, plain and simple.......
> 
> ...


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

strugglinghusband said:


> Wonder how he would feel if YOU, kissed another man, told OM you loved him and then told your husband "Maybe" you were fantasizing about this OM...hmmm think he might be pissed off?
> 
> He mentions the grass is greener shat, maybe he needs thrown over the fence to see what it really looks like, Your husband is putting this OW ahead of his wife, plain and simple.......
> 
> ...


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

@Lordmayhem,
Thanks for your input. The five things that you listed are exactly what he is doing right now. And I do believe that I have not been told everything. I just don't know how big the iceberg may be. And I sure don't know how to make him tell me more. He said he does not regret what happened, (this is something he learned in an AA meeting, yes he is also an alcoholic), so since he doesn't regret it and doesn't think it was more than a friendship, he really doesn't apologize in a way to make me feel better about the whole thing. Just wish I know what it would take, to make him spill his guts and tell everything.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

@Struggling Husband, Thanks also for your input. I had asked him how he would feel if I did all the things he did with OM. He said he knows I wouldn't because I am more on the shy side, so he doesn't have to worry about how he would feel. I did use your "throw him over the fence" in our argument last night. He claims he doesn't want to be with her, he wants to mend our marriage. There are so many gaps in his story, that it just confuses me. I asked him about her interest and how her marriage ended and he knows nothing about either subject. So how can a man tell another woman he loves her, misses her and kisses her on the lips, but doesn't know her interest outside of work? How could he say she was a really good friend and not know these things? We are talking about boundaries now, but it is hard when he thinks what happened wasn't a big deal. Thanks for the book recommendation and the link. I got the book from the library yesterday and have started reading it.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

@PHTLump, Thanks for your input. I am so glad that you feel this is inappropriate behavior. Just curious, if you are male or female? I do feel that when he called her in front of me, that there was a reason he let her know I was there. I feel like I lost my chance to see how they interact with me not being there. I wish there was another way to see this, especially since he won't tell me anything beyond just friends. I also have been working on my being more forward.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Sweet Ginger said:


> @Struggling Husband, Thanks also for your input. I had asked him how he would feel if I did all the things he did with OM. He said he knows I wouldn't because I am more on the shy side, so he doesn't have to worry about how he would feel. I did use your "throw him over the fence" in our argument last night. He claims he doesn't want to be with her, he wants to mend our marriage. There are so many gaps in his story, that it just confuses me. I asked him about her interest and how her marriage ended and he knows nothing about either subject. So how can a man tell another woman he loves her, misses her and kisses her on the lips, but doesn't know her interest outside of work? How could he say she was a really good friend and not know these things? We are talking about boundaries now, but it is hard when he thinks what happened wasn't a big deal. Thanks for the book recommendation and the link. I got the book from the library yesterday and have started reading it.


You are welcome, Not Just Friends will really open your eyes.

He says he knows you wouldnt do something like that...of course you wouldnt because you know its wrong, and so does he, HE knows its wrong!!!!
He thinks it was not a big deal, I call BS!!! it is/was a big deal for you, so it should be a big deal for him.

I'm sure he isnt telling you it all, most dont when first confronted, it's called the trickle truth and it sucks, every time you get a little more new info, it's like starting all over.

He says he want to be with you and mend the marriage, then he needs prove that to you with actions and not so much with words, Actions like getting away from her 100% No contact, No contact means, no contact EVER AGAIN!!!!


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Ginger, I used to be really shy as well. Never in a million years did I ever think I would cheat on my husband. It was never physical, but was still cheating. No, I am not suggesting that you go out and do the same thing, nor am I suggesting that you WOULD. But he needs to be made aware that even those who APPEAR to be the most faithful spouses DO, indeed, cheat.

Honestly, short of filing for divorce (it doesn't mean you have to go through with it) to wake him up to what he has really done to your marriage, I don't think there is anything you really CAN do to get him to see. And, if you DO file, then if he wants to actually fix the marriage, then he needs to come clean on everything, not "just enough" to get by, not just what he thinks you want to hear. And, he needs to find a new job, or be transferred at the company to somewhere he will not have to interact with this woman. You need to show him you are serious about it...and DO NOT BACK DOWN. He neds to see how wrong this is/was. Until THAT happens, and NC is established, you are going to continue to be at odds over this.

Oh, and PHTLump is a man.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> Ginger, I used to be really shy as well. Never in a million years did I ever think I would cheat on my husband. It was never physical, but was still cheating. No, I am not suggesting that you go out and do the same thing, nor am I suggesting that you WOULD. But he needs to be made aware that even those who APPEAR to be the most faithful spouses DO, indeed, cheat.
> 
> Honestly, short of filing for divorce (it doesn't mean you have to go through with it) to wake him up to what he has really done to your marriage, I don't think there is anything you really CAN do to get him to see. And, if you DO file, then if he wants to actually fix the marriage, then he needs to come clean on everything, not "just enough" to get by, not just what he thinks you want to hear. And, he needs to find a new job, or be transferred at the company to somewhere he will not have to interact with this woman. You need to show him you are serious about it...and DO NOT BACK DOWN. He neds to see how wrong this is/was. Until THAT happens, and NC is established, you are going to continue to be at odds over this.
> 
> Oh, and PHTLump is a man.


:iagree: x1000

Your husband wants to rug sweep this, and gas light you to the very end and keep on eating his cake, he's faced no consequences for this..none.

You may feel very weak at this moment, but actually YOU are in the drivers seat, you just dont know it.. but you are.

Sounds like your husband is in the "Fog" thier affair partners can do no wrong, they will defend them and thier relationship like a rabid dog, he needs to see this for what it is..WRONG!!! and sometimes it takes the threat of divorce or exposing it to people that will help end it for them to see the light, affairs of any type thirve on secercy, the thrill, the rush the chemicals in the brain, once the secercy of it is gone and the real world sets in, you have a chance of fixing things...

Dont let him manage you, stand your ground!


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

strugglinghusband said:


> you are welcome, not just friends will really open your eyes.
> 
> He says he knows you wouldnt do something like that...of course you wouldnt because you know its wrong, and so does he, he knows its wrong!!!!
> He thinks it was not a big deal, i call bs!!! It is/was a big deal for you, so it should be a big deal for him.
> ...


this.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

What youre going thru and about to go thru sucks. No two ways about it. He is fully aware of what he is doing. He knows full well that he's having an affair. He thinks you too stupid to prove it.

So, get his phone records. Put a VAR in his car under the drivers seat and install a keylogger in your computer for starters.... I had to, it works and ONLY when faced with UNDENIABLE evidence will they sometimes come clean and you can start to R. Get all of yourevidence AND learn as much as humanly possible about HER. Where she lives, who her parents are, where she went to college, her best friends name....."KNOW THY ENEMY"


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Sorry to say this, but if he's kissing her on the lips it's a physical relationship. I don't mean because of the kiss, I mean that kissing like that on the lips is something you do between lovers , it requires lowering of personal space barriers.

For it to become part of a simple goodbye shows that those barriers are completed dropped down between them. If a physical affair was something forbidden and unexplored they would not casually be kidding on the lips. Instead that would be weird and awkward between them.

Nope, they've clearly done are are doing much more.


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## Pault (Aug 15, 2012)

Sweet the guys are in the marjority right. You H is playing the field, hes lied and the incident where he phones the OW and annouced you were listening in was a clear indication that he was firing up the waring signals, what is worse , he did it in front of you which in my book says hes disrespecting you in a big way. Not a thoughless act but a calculated one to protect the other woman. Ive had female co workers who have phoned me and text me and I can honestly say even with those who I was close (in a business way) would NOT have kissed me on the lips end of, would not have called me darling or loved me at the end of a call and if they had, Id have distanced myself immeadiately! Your H owes you a massive appology and a full explaination with the TRUSTH and not hiding the bits he wants to hide. I suspect that the relationship was more than a little lip kiss. he may indeed need a boot in the rear with you producing the name and address of your lawyer, He might just see that you are not putting up with the rubbish


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

He is in an affair with this other woman (OW). When people first begin to discover an affair, they rarely have as much confirming information affair as you now have. Contrary to what your husband and the OW say, kissing another woman on the lips and telling her that he loves her, is a big enough betrayal on its own that most husbands would be begging for forgiveness for having done just this; you would be naive if you bought into their lie that it was not a big deal. Your husband telling her that you were in the room when he called on speaker, after agreeing not to, proves beyond a doubt that as bad as it sounds so far, there is more that he is trying to hide. His attempted blame shifting as to your faults and his grass is greener comment, confirm that he is rationalizing why it is OK to cheat. Cheaters always try to hold you to a standard of perfection that they do not hold themselves too, knowing that as a human you will fail such a standard. Do not let him do this. If he had a problem with you he needed to work with you on it. Cheating never fixes issue in a marraige. BTW, the kissing makes it no longer just an emotinal affair, and the fantasizing about her comment indicates even more.

You must be willing to end the marriage to have a shot at having a marraige worth saving. Stop listening to his lies and second guessing yourself. He crossed the line and is in an affair. See an attorney to learn your rights and let him know that you are doing so. Tell him that to even have a chance at saving the marriage that he must end all non-work-required contact with the OW and demand full transparency which includes passwords without complaint. Also demand that he acknowledge that what he did was cheating and start showing remorse for it.

I am sorry that you are here. Be well and good luck.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

TRy said:


> You must be willing to end the marriage to have a shot at having a marraige worth saving. Stop listening to his lies and second guessing yourself. He crossed the line and is in an affair. See an attorney to learn your rights and let him know that you are doing so. Tell him that to even have a chance at saving the marriage that he must end all non-work-required contact with the OW and demand full transparency which includes passwords without complaint. Also demand that he acknowledge that what he did was cheating and start showing remorse for it.


This is the most important advice you will ever get. Please follow it.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

The grass looks greener on the other side of the fence because it's fertilized with bullsh!t.

So he thinks it would be better with her? Give him a dose of reality. Contact a lawyer and discuss your legal options.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

@shaggy, I hate to think you are right, but you make a very good point. In reading this I get a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach.

@Pault- My husband is having a hard time apologizing, he said he learned in AA meeting that you do not regret things that you do that are wrong. So he says he does not regret this friendship and therefore does not have remorse for it.

@TRy- Your second paragraph is a very valuable piece of advice and I am taking it to heart.

I told my husband no none business contact with her at work. But last night he tells me when she is going to lunch she checks to see if see can pick up something for him. I told him to me it seems she doesn't want to end the special friendship and he says she is only being polite. Unless I'm over thinking everything she does, I think it is time for me to make a more drastic move, to wake him up.


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## thesunwillcomeout (Jun 25, 2012)

Sweet Ginger, have you thought about heading to an Al-Anon meeting to help you in your own quest to detach (in love) and gain some perspective? It can help with the 180. That bit about him telling you he learned to not regret anything in AA is a twist of mier-duh. I've been in the rooms plenty and I never heard it twisted quite like that. If there was no regret or remorse there would be no need for the 8th step: "8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all." Your husband owes you an amends. He's not making that step a priority in regards to you. What we learn in the rooms is that all of the damage, the hurt can be turned around and be used for good BUT it comes through a new way of life. Admitting our wrongs, making amends. NOT using it as a justification for the very acts existence. He's manipulating AA to manipulate your emotions. Betcha if you tell him your going to Al-Anon for yourself because you want to know yourself he'll stop pulling the AA-line because you'll have his number. 

All of this is just secondary though. It's incredibly painful stuff because he's walking the cheaters walk. It hurts! 

You can do this. You can stand up to him. You can be strong. You won't find better direction and clarity than "Not Just Friends".

Can you get your husband to read it with you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pault (Aug 15, 2012)

@Pault- My husband is having a hard time apologizing, he said he learned in AA meeting that you do not regret things that you do that are wrong. So he says he does not regret this friendship and therefore does not have remorse for it.


Boy that seems like BS. Holding on to something you regret is a bad thing to do if your a recovering Alchoholic or you sugffer depressive states, but not to admit to something that is WRONG which is what hes saying here then boy this world is finished.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Pault said:


> Boy that seems like BS. Holding on to something you regret is a bad thing to do if your a recovering Alchoholic or you sugffer depressive states, but not to admit to something that is WRONG which is what hes saying here then boy this world is finished.


It is BS. But, I think, there's no regret because he does not think what he's doing IS wrong.

Interesting that Sweet Ginger's H mentioned her asking about lunch. It's not really that objectionable, is it? The problem is that he's trying to classify this with other behaviour such as kissing the OW on the lips.

I wouldn't do anything 'drastic'. The suggestion of reading "Not Just Friends" might work as it's less confrontational.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

I used to think male female friends were acceptable. I would have drawn the line at romantic or affectionate talk or flirting. Now my rule is simple. No friends of the opposite sex. Anything elese is asking for trouble.


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## thesunwillcomeout (Jun 25, 2012)

I think you need to go all Molly Shannon in Talladega Nights and start kissing all of his friends on the lips right in front of him. 

Oh, I'm just kidding. Probably not a good joke. 

But I think he DOES know its wrong---deep inside---he's just minimizing cuz he's trying to convince himself and you in order to justify. Typical.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

thesunwillcomeout said:


> I think you need to go all Molly Shannon in Talladega Nights and start kissing all of his friends on the lips right in front of him.
> 
> Oh, I'm just kidding. Probably not a good joke.
> 
> ...


He ABSOLUTELY knows its wrong otherwise he wouldnt have hidden it. He would have told you in the first place and not let you discover it......AND he would have let her speak with you in the room and NOT told her as you requested. Instead he put HER needs ahead of YOURS. That to me, shows consciousness of guilt, or he would have let her speak freely w/o censoring it.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

azteca1986 said:


> It is BS. But, I think, there's no regret because he does not think what he's doing IS wrong.
> 
> Interesting that Sweet Ginger's H mentioned her asking about lunch. It's not really that objectionable, is it? The problem is that he's trying to classify this with other behaviour such as kissing the OW on the lips.
> 
> I wouldn't do anything *'drastic'.* The suggestion of reading "Not Just Friends" might work as it's less confrontational.


Her husband passed drastic way up when he kissed another woman, as far her checking to see if she can get him some lunch, it is very objectionable, they kissed... maybe thats just the tip of the iceburg, who knows what else went down.
it was right that he told Ginger about it, but instead of being polite, he should have slammed the door on thier 'supposed" friendship FOREVER!!! maybe something along the lines of '"My relantionship with you was terribly wrong and I have hurt my wife, and I need to atone for that, my marriage is more importnat to me than anything and I need to focus on rebuilding what I have damaged, We can no longer have any type of relantionship, now or ever, Do not attempt to contact me in any fashion, if you do I will let my wife and our employer know of the situation, basically stay the effe away from me, you got it?"

Blowing her the hell off PRONTO!!!!

But he didnt do that, did he?, nope still stuck in good ole affair land, and he he isnt leaving until he's forced to...
Hammer time???


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

strugglinghusband said:


> Her husband passed drastic way up when he kissed another woman, as far her checking to see if she can get him some lunch, it is very objectionable, they kissed... maybe thats just the tip of the iceburg, who knows what else went down.
> it was right that he told Ginger about it, but instead of being polite, he should have slammed the door on thier 'supposed" friendship FOREVER!!! maybe something along the lines of '"My relantionship with you was terribly wrong and I have hurt my wife, and I need to atone for that, my marriage is more importnat to me than anything and I need to focus on rebuilding what I have damaged, We can no longer have any type of relantionship, now or ever, Do not attempt to contact me in any fashion, if you do I will let my wife and our employer know of the situation, basically stay the effe away from me, you got it?"


Hey I agree with you. In an ideal world that's exactly how her husband should deal with this. But he hasn't and doesn't seem even close to.



> But he didnt do that, did he?, nope still stuck in good ole affair land, and he he isnt leaving until he's forced to...
> Hammer time???


So long as any threat or consequences don't only succeed in driving this underground?


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

azteca1986 said:


> Hey I agree with you. In an ideal world that's exactly how her husband should deal with this. But he hasn't and doesn't seem even close to.
> 
> So long as any threat or consequences don't only succeed in driving this underground?


Thats a possiblity but you cannot "nice" someone out of an affair either. It CANNOT be done.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

canttrustu said:


> Thats a possiblity but you cannot "nice" someone out of an affair either. It CANNOT be done.


Agreed


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

azteca1986 said:


> Hey I agree with you. In an ideal world that's exactly how her husband should deal with this. But he hasn't and doesn't seem even close to.
> 
> No harm no foul, I didnt think you were down playing it, just trying to make sure ginger dosent let him pull the wool over her eyes..were cool
> 
> So long as any threat or consequences don't only succeed in driving this underground?


She dosent have to make threats, only keep her word on what she will and will not tolerate, he really needs to go no contact 100%, if they cant see each other to keep the flames burning much harder to take it underground, will get him out of the "Fog"


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## MysteryMan1 (Nov 4, 2012)

To be quite honest your husband might as well spit in your face the way he's handling this situation. You tell him not to tell her you're in the room when he calls, the first thing he does is tell her you're in the room.

He's blatantly cheating on you and doesn't care how you feel about it.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Ginger, how did you feel when he told you about the lunch incident? how did you react to that? hurt,pissed off?


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Sweet Ginger said:


> I had asked him how he would feel if I did all the things he did with OM. He said he knows I wouldn't because I am more on the shy side, so he doesn't have to worry about how he would feel.


 To get him to answer this question, ask him again, but this time tell him that unless he tells you that such actions are wrong and would bother him, that you will take it to mean that it does not bother him and that you have his permission to do such a thing should the opportunity come up. Remind him that since you have admitted that it does bother you, that he does not have such permission. He probably will not bite if you say this just one time, but if you say it enough times, it may start to worry him, especially if you make a point of being more engaging with other men while he is at the same event. I am not saying to cheat, just be less shy and more friendly such that he notices a change.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

He says he does not feel remorse for having the friendship.

Ask if he is sorry his actions are so hurtful to you.
Ask him if he has remorse for betraying and disrespecting you.

I am afraid he is using twisted psycho babble to justify what he did (is still doing).


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

TRy said:


> To get him to answer this question, ask him again, but this time tell him that unless he tells you that such actions are wrong and would bother him, that you will take it to mean that it does not bother him and that you have his permission to do such a thing should the opportunity come up. Remind him that since you have admitted that it does bother you, that he does not have such permission. He probably will not bite if you say this just one time, but if you say it enough times, it may start to worry him, especially if you make a point of being more engaging with other men while he is at the same event. I am not saying to cheat, just be less shy and more friendly such that he notices a change.


In my experience, when a person is involved in an affair, they are so wrapped up in that affair that they dont have any concern for what you do. NOthing you do effects them short of total 180. They are so hung up on whats going on in their world that they have no empathy for anyone. Their concern for rather or not you are happy, rather or not you come home, rather or not you are crying or sad or uncomfortable is non-existant. Not until NC is established and the affair is busted up and they can begin to come out of their fog. They almost always have to be faced with losing the BS before they will do anything. Just the "thought" of "How would you feel" doesnt phase them at all because they are so enthralled in fantasy land.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

@Thesunwillcomeup - Good idea about going to an Al-Anon meeting. I had a while back actually went to an AA meeting on a night that he didn't go, and I went with one of my female friends. Maybe I will ask him to tell me what is the 8 th step at his AA meetings.

@Strugglinghusband - I felt hurt of course. But I was also angry that she would feel comfortable coming up to him and offering to get his lunch. So it makes me feel that he probably did apologize for the phone call that made her cry.

@TRy- Very good way to re ask the question. I think I will ask him that tonight.

@TDSC60 - Also a good way to re ask him questions.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> In my experience, when a person is involved in an affair, they are so wrapped up in that affair that they dont have any concern for what you do. NOthing you do effects them short of total 180. They are so hung up on whats going on in their world that they have no empathy for anyone. Their concern for rather or not you are happy, rather or not you come home, rather or not you are crying or sad or uncomfortable is non-existant. Not until NC is established and the affair is busted up and they can begin to come out of their fog. They almost always have to faced with losing the BS before they will do anything. Just the "thought" of "How would you feel" doesnt phase them at all because they are so enthralled in fantasy land.


:iagree:

In other words to them (the WS) "No one else exsists and nothing else matters"


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

strugglinghusband said:


> :iagree:
> 
> In other words to them (the WS) "No one else exsists and nothing else matters"


BINGO!!!! This is what you have to realize unfortunately Ginger. Right now you can ask and re ask all you want but the fact is you are not the priority. He proved that already by directly going against you when asked not to identify to her that you were in the room which he PROMPTLY did. He chose HER. He will continue to do so as long as he is in this affair. So, as much as you'd like to rephrase, reask or redo it wont change anything so long as there remains any contact whatsoever. Im talking from first hand experience here as is Strugglinghusband.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Sweet Ginger, the post (#42) from canttrustu is bang on the money. There are too many times where your H has either disregarded your concerns, feeling and worst of all shown where his 'loyalties' really lie.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

strugglinghusband said:


> :iagree:
> 
> In other words to them (the WS) "No one else exsists and nothing else matters"


In one cheater forum, they refer to this as the "affair bubble" on infidelity support sites like this, its called the "fog". Its all unicorns and rainbows in affair land.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Sweet Ginger;
@Strugglinghusband - I felt hurt of course. But I was also angry that she would feel comfortable coming up to him and offering to get his lunch. So it makes me feel that he probably did apologize for the phone call that made her cry.QUOTE said:


> You should be pissed as HELL! you want to know why she felt comfortable coming up to him? Because she was and he made her feel that way....yes he did...again her before you, are you starting to really see it now?
> 
> I would bet dollars to doughnuts that he did apologize to her, boo hoo.. poor little Ms.SkankBag, did her get upset by my mean ole wifey, see I told you she wouldnt understand, she never does, ok lets kiss hello and good bye now, everyone does that these days especially when there as good as "friends" as we are..love you.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

strugglinghusband said:


> Sweet Ginger;
> @Strugglinghusband - I felt hurt of course. But I was also angry that she would feel comfortable coming up to him and offering to get his lunch. So it makes me feel that he probably did apologize for the phone call that made her cry.QUOTE said:
> 
> 
> ...


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## thesunwillcomeout (Jun 25, 2012)

Ginger, do you have any friends/people you trust at his office who you can discreetly mine for information? How long have they worked closely together? If she's checking to see if he wants lunch, they are in constant touch in the office. She's comfortable going into his office...likely the same he is with hers. They probably go out to lunch together as well from time to time. Because they're "friends". This all sucks...but I think there's way more to this story.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

@azteca - I agree # 42 is a very good post.

@strugglinghusband - I am pissed. And I totally see it happening the way you worded it. 

@thesunwillcomeout - My husband does not work in an office. He is a tree trimmer. He has a crew of two under him and she is one of them. This whole thing sucks big time!


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> @azteca - I agree # 42 is a very good post.
> 
> @strugglinghusband - I am pissed. And I totally see it happening the way you worded it.
> 
> @thesunwillcomeout - My husband does not work in an office. He is a tree trimmer. He has a crew of two under him and she is one of them. This whole thing sucks big time!


My Ws OM was a tree trimmer...


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> @azteca - I agree # 42 is a very good post.
> 
> @strugglinghusband - I am pissed. And I totally see it happening the way you worded it.
> 
> @thesunwillcomeout - My husband does not work in an office. He is a tree trimmer. He has a crew of two under him and she is one of them. This whole thing sucks big time!


So he is her supervisor????? So he is risking his job??? NOT good. AND they have ALL day access to each other and he is out of communication with you alot, correct???


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## thesunwillcomeout (Jun 25, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> My husband does not work in an office. He is a tree trimmer. He has a crew of two under him and she is one of them. This whole thing sucks big time!


Wow! That's a tough one. No VAR in the office. Geesh, I would think he could re-staff his crew. That makes it even stranger. Kissing your tree-trimming staff on the lips? Just strange. 

Time he gets an all-male crew, not that women can't be great tree-trimmers, just not THAT one. 

Is she married? Boyfriend?


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

@canttrustu -Correct, he usually calls me. If I call him, I leave a message for him to call me back. 

@thesunwillcomeout - I had trouble with her trying to eat lunch with him in the big truck that he only drives. She and the other guy drive a small truck to the site. She only drags brush, she doesn't climb. My husband is the only climber. And my husband is the one that recommended her for the job. She was hired just this year. She had worked with him at a different tree job in the past. And she is a divorced woman, only a year older than myself.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

Do you know why she's divorced?


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Sweet Ginger said:


> @azteca - I agree # 42 is a very good post.
> 
> @strugglinghusband - I am pissed. And I totally see it happening the way you worded it.
> 
> @thesunwillcomeout - My husband does not work in an office. He is a tree trimmer. He has a crew of two under him and she is one of them. This whole thing sucks big time!



Ginger, the way I said it may seem harsh..buts its the honest to gods truth that these things (affairs)pretty much follow a script to the "T"..I am so sorry you are hurting, but I will not sugar coat something that I know is so deeply wrong, as you know it is wrong as well...

My question to you is "What are you prepared to do about it?"

If you feel weak thats ok, it's normal, but your fear to take action is what paralyzes you...

Everything you want is on the other side of fear..Jack Canfiled


Bottom line is, This BIOTCH has to go!, there is now way in hell you have a chance of saving your marriage while he is still in contact with her..NONE, drag his a$$ out of this fog by any means possible.

Tree Timmers that kiss hello and good bye on the LIPS and tell one another they love each other, is this in "Never Ever Land?"
geez what are they trimming stuff off a sugar gum drops trees?

All fairy tails and lies....


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

@Ovid - No, that is the weird part. He claims they were just really good friends, with the "I love you, kissing on the lips, hugging etc.", and yet when I asked how and when her divorce came about, he says he has no idea. I asked what her interest were outside of work and he has no idea of that either. It seems if you were good enough friends to say I love you, that you would also know something about the person.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Sweet Ginger said:


> @Ovid - No, that is the weird part. He claims they were just really good friends, with the "I love you, kissing on the lips, hugging etc.", and yet when I asked how and when her divorce came about, he says he has no idea. I asked what her interest were outside of work and he has no idea of that either. It seems if you were good enough friends to say I love you, that you would also know something about the person.


Hmmm wonder what they do talk about and do together then?

IOW he dosent really know her at all, but he tells her he loves her..kinda of odd dont you think?


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

@Strugglinghusband - No worries about being harsh. I have brought up the "D" word. And believe me I am doing everything in my power to get this woman away from my husband. I've turned into quite the potty mouth during our arguments. I can't help it, things just fly out of my mouth before I can stop them. Btw, I appreciate your gum drop tree humor.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Sweet Ginger said:


> @Strugglinghusband - No worries about being harsh. I have brought up the "D" word. And believe me I am doing everything in my power to get this woman away from my husband. I've turned into quite the potty mouth during our arguments. I can't help it, things just fly out of my mouth before I can stop them. Btw, I appreciate your gum drop tree humor.



Good for you, dont worry about being a potty mouth, when you bring up the big D, mean it, dont throw anything out there you are not prepared to back up, after all you are a person of thier word (unlike your husband). 

There is really nothing to agrue about when you put it this way and mean it.

"Her or me....her..or me?" 

It is really that simple, three words..her or me?


I think you really are a firecracker once the fuse gets lit..look out! everyone run fast and far ....time to light that fuse..huh?

PS. if you can find someting to laugh about in all of this, that should tell you, you will be ok.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Sweet G
Go to a family law attorney before the end of this week. Explain the situation and find out what your rights and his are in case this escalates. If you have any financial documents take them with you. Tell them about your husband's tree-trimming business and see if you indeed own half of it. 


Go to the bank and open an account in your name only then transfer half of the joint acct into it. 

When this is done tell your husband of the preparations you have made. Tell him you already have a pu$$y and don't need him. He needs to be a man and own up to his misdeeds or prepare for a legal dogfight. 

Of course you'll have to follow through on your threat if he doesn't immediately acquiesce to your demand that he act like a loyal spouse. 

And really, if he's not in the marriage then what have you got? It's best to face the issues head-on and take control rather than drift along and hope the tide washes your marriage onto a favorable spot. That won't happen. 

Take control of your life.


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## thesunwillcomeout (Jun 25, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> @Ovid - No, that is the weird part. He claims they were just really good friends, with the "I love you, kissing on the lips, hugging etc.", and yet when I asked how and when her divorce came about, he says he has no idea. I asked what her interest were outside of work and he has no idea of that either. It seems if you were good enough friends to say I love you, that you would also know something about the person.


"I don't know", "I have no idea", and the like are typical statements that usually cover "I know, but don't want to tell you". I'm sure he does know some of her interests.....and I would bet the farm I don't have that he knows what led to her divorce too, at least on some level. I'm sure she shares some of her private woes with him. I could be wrong...but doubt it, cuz....the script!


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

yep "IDK & IDR" are the front runners for the script. Every question I asked for mos the answer "I dont remember"........Yeah, right. You 'loved' a girl and dont remember any conversations with her??? UFB. Its called gaslighting. The same as "we're just friends". Ginger, look in the NJF book, one of the top signs of an affair is the word "just"..........

The other thing I want to say is that like you, I argued and fought, tried really hard to get my H to open up and tell me what was wrong. Flat out asked him if there was someone else..."no, of course not. Dont be ridiculous." Yeah, at that point he'd been having an affair for around 9 mos...

So my point is that he wont ever confess until you have physical proof. Get that VAR in his truck. And some spyware on his phone pronto. And until then try to lay low. I know its tempting to fight it out with him every second but the fact is its getting you nowhere. And he's getting smarter. So you have to go James Bond on him. Then when you have undeniable proof You sit him down with "its her or me" just like Struggling said. Even if that means he has to get a new job or transfer her or whatever. As I mentioned before my H had to resign to get NC. it sucked but it was his price to pay. 

I worry about how long this has been going on since you said he
worked with her before and brought her to him basically....Have you looked back at phone records? Have you checked this woman out?


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

_On my husbands phone, I found a voice mail from a divorced female co-worker of his, that started with "Darling" and ended with "love you"._

_Here is what I found so far on my own. He has text her with messages like "I miss you" and ends his text signing "love" with his name. (this is what he told me they said, since he deleted them before I could read them). _

_He has phone conversations that end with love you too. In person when he says goodbye he gives her a hug, kiss on the lips and tells her he loves her. _

_He admits to flirting with her and said she is a good looking woman. He defends her when I say she didn't respect our marriage and has yet to say anything negative about her_

_He said something about the grass being greener_

_ that maybe he was fantasizing about her_

_He said he does not regret what happened_

_ last night he tells me when she is going to lunch she checks to see if see can pick up something for him. I told him to me it seems she doesn't want to end the special friendship and he says she is only being polite. _

_He has a crew of two under him and she is one of them_




Read the above, What more ammo/proof do you need?


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> @Ovid - No, that is the weird part. He claims they were just really good friends, with the "I love you, kissing on the lips, hugging etc.", and yet when I asked how and when her divorce came about, he says he has no idea. I asked what her interest were outside of work and he has no idea of that either. It seems if you were good enough friends to say I love you, that you would also know something about the person.


I suspect he does know and is keeping their intimate discussions from you.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

strugglinghusband said:


> _On my husbands phone, I found a voice mail from a divorced female co-worker of his, that started with "Darling" and ended with "love you"._
> 
> _Here is what I found so far on my own. He has text her with messages like "I miss you" and ends his text signing "love" with his name. (this is what he told me they said, since he deleted them before I could read them). _
> 
> ...


i agree. its enough for me but she isnt getting anywhere with this.
Well, I suppose you could say 'her or me' right now based just on what he's admitted to. it would be enough, more than enough for me. But i dont think you're at your limit yet. I think youre still hoping in the back of your mind that they truly are "Just friends" but as we've all said- all the signs are there. 

on a side note, and I know this is personal but hows your love life? has it dramatically increased/decreased?


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Ginger
Back in the day I was lineman, I know this chick, worked with a ton just like her, they did the grunt work, easy labor stuff, flaggers etc
Some of the girls were cool and pulled thier weight others used thier looks and flirting to get the fools to do thier work for them, it was down right scary, married men acting like love struck teenagers over some chick that was clearly a skank, together all day, when it rained if there was no place to go they would sit in the trucks and ride it out..BONDING, telling thier woes reeling the dumbasses in more and more and the guys (the stupid ones) ate it like candy, you knew who was screwing who in more ways than one.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

@thesunwillcomeout - I thought about that last night that it is not that he doesn't know that information, but that he isn't telling it to me.

@strugglinghusband - I'm sure she is the one that gets the men to cover and do things for her. My husband recommended her for the job, even though he knew she doesn't climb, but had that she did on her resume. And when it rains that is exactly where they sit. I told him I hope I never find out that she is sitting in the big truck with him, when is suppose to be in there by himself.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

It sucks to find out your spouse is an idiot. Simply put, don't settle, you are never #2. NOTHING he says makes any sense, even if they are "just friends."


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Sweet Ginger said:


> @thesunwillcomeout - I thought about that last night that it is not that he doesn't know that information, but that he isn't telling it to me.
> 
> @strugglinghusband - I'm sure she is the one that gets the men to cover and do things for her. My husband recommended her for the job, even though he knew she doesn't climb, but had that she did on her resume. And when it rains that is exactly where they sit. I told him I hope I never find out that she is sitting in the big truck with him, when is suppose to be in there by himself.



Do you have enough for you yet? if not
You mentioned that there is a third person on his crew.
1) Do you know him?
2) Is he married?
If so they could be a good ally, maybe the third co-workers wife would be a good place to start?


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Do speak to a lawyer before you talk seriously with your husband. He's not taken you or your concerns seriously so far. Talking (perhaps vaguely) about D hasn't worked either. The phrase "I've already spoken to a lawyer..." will have the effect of sobering him up rapidly.

Then your H can choose; You, your marriage, proper boundaries, transparency and conditions (OW has to be out of the picture immediately). Or her.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

@Stugglinghusband - Good idea. I know his number is on my husband's phone and I can easily find out if he is married.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> @Stugglinghusband - Good idea. I know his number is on my husband's phone and I can easily find out if he is married.


It is a great idea. Just be careful- If your H is his boss he may be hesitant to be forthcoming.


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## thesunwillcomeout (Jun 25, 2012)

Exactly--be very careful how you proceed. It'll go either two ways: he'll cover for your husband OR he'll want to help you b/c he's pissed she's getting preferential treatment, and believe me, she's getting preferential treatment. It's possible she's working over the other guy too. My husband's OW did this in the office as well. She had (and may still have) another guy in the office wrapped around her thumb...and he has a young baby at home. Sick chick. (But so are the men who fall for it AND initiate it!)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

@ canttrustu and thesunwillcomeout - For now I will copy his name and number from my husband's phone and keep it for possible later use. You are right that this could be very touchy.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

thesunwillcomeout said:


> Exactly--be very careful how you proceed. It'll go either two ways: he'll cover for your husband OR he'll want to help you b/c he's pissed she's getting preferential treatment, and believe me, she's getting preferential treatment. It's possible she's working over the other guy too. My husband's OW did this in the office as well. She had (and may still have) another guy in the office wrapped around her thumb...and he has a young baby at home. Sick chick. (But so are the men who fall for it AND initiate it!)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ahh- good ole Permelia, she sure does get around doesnt she??:rofl:


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

@ TRy- In reference to your post # 40. I did ask him how he would feel if I did the same thing. And I asked the way you mentioned. He kind of got a weird look on his face and said that would be different because I am more backward and he knows if I was doing the things that he did, that I would somehow be more serious about it, compared to him doing it and it being only on a friendship level. Go figure?


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

I may have missed this info in my reading, but is this your husband's business, or does he work for someone else? I would be contacting their supervisor if there is one. I cannot imagine that their behavior would be acceptable by company terms! And if he loses his job, so what? It will cut that relationship off at the knees, at least for a while. Sorry but your husband is an a$$hole. Get thee to a lawyer, ASAP.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> @ TRy- In reference to your post # 40. I did ask him how he would feel if I did the same thing. And I asked the way you mentioned. He kind of got a weird look on his face and said that would be different because I am more backward and he knows if I was doing the things that he did, that I would somehow be more serious about it, compared to him doing it and it being only on a friendship level. Go figure?


As I said- No concern for you. He cant put himself in that thought. To him, thats just not going to happen. Plain and simple. He wants you both. But her first for now. Until you put a stop to it.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Sweet Ginger said:


> @ TRy- In reference to your post # 40. I did ask him how he would feel if I did the same thing. And I asked the way you mentioned. He kind of got a weird look on his face and said that would be different because I am more backward and he knows if I was doing the things that he did, that I would somehow be more serious about it, compared to him doing it and it being only on a friendship level. Go figure?


He's just rationalizing/justifying it in his own mind, You wouldnt be able to handle a "Friendship" (puke) like this, because you would crosslines, but he can maintain, which of course is BS he proved he cant.

The best way I can desrcibe it,is like he's hypnotised which to a degree he is, he sees nothing wrong and he wont until he's shaken out of it.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

strugglinghusband said:


> He's just rationalizing/justifying it in his own mind, You wouldnt be able to handle a "Friendship" (puke) like this, because you would crosslines, but he can maintain, which of course is BS he proved he cant.
> 
> The best way I can desrcibe it,is like he's hypnotised which to a degree he is, he sees nothing wrong and he wont until he's shaken out of it.


No- He sees wrong- He's just not capable of changing it w/o major upheaval in his world. Like most WS, they know they are doing something WAY wrong which is why they lie and deny but they cant/wont see their way out w/o some powerful motivation i.e the possibility of losing BS.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

@ strugglinghusband & canttrustu - Honestly some days I think he really thinks what he did was okay, even as far as the kissing on the lips. Then other days I think, hell no, he knows what he did was very wrong. This is definitely a confusing time period for me.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> @ strugglinghusband & canttrustu - Honestly some days I think he really thinks what he did was okay, even as far as the kissing on the lips. Then other days I think, hell no, he knows what he did was very wrong. This is definitely a confusing time period for me.


oh Ginger. Now THIS is BS fog talk, do you for real believe that he for one minute thinks it ok to kiss another woman on the lips??? Let me ask you this then- Did he tell you he did this BEFORE you found this voicemail?????

Remember when I said not to follow your heart here bc it will lead you astray??? Well here is exactly what Im talking about. Your head is telling you he knows better(and he does) but your heart wants to believe that he doesnt (bc thats a less painful avenue). listen to your head and your gut.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

@canttrustu - You are right it was after I found the voice mail. The first question I asked was have you kissed her? And that was he did admit he did, but that it was a quick peck on lips along with the hug, hello and goodbye. Btw, I hate mental pictures. I guess it would be easier to believe he didn't think it was wrong.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> @canttrustu - You are right it was after I found the voice mail. The first question I asked was have you kissed her? And that was he did admit he did, but that it was a quick peck on lips along with the hug, hello and goodbye. Btw, I hate mental pictures. I guess it would be easier to believe he didn't think it was wrong.


IF it was ONLY friendship he wouldnt say "I love you" or "I miss you" he wouldnt Kiss her lips, a cheek maybe, lips- NO WAY. And he wouldnt fight you SO HARD for a FRIEND. Have you read NJF? It tells you about how they fight so hard for the "friendship".

My H fought me SO hard for his AP. So hard. When I asked himto move away from her he had a freakin' melt down. Threw his phone, yelled and screamed about what a "child" I was being and how ridiculous that would look on him at work.....That was 10 mos into the affair.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Ginger You know its wrong, thats what matters here, you do, your the one being hurt...


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Dont let the BS talk of the "Fog" be used as carte blanche to sh1t all over you, or as a free pass for him not own up to it...

Again I say, STAND YOUR GROUND, do not soften up.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> @ strugglinghusband & canttrustu - Honestly some days I think he really thinks what he did was okay, even as far as the kissing on the lips. Then other days I think, hell no, he knows what he did was very wrong. This is definitely a confusing time period for me.


It's not confusing. The times you think it's OK are the times you try to rationalise it, so you can be OK with it. In the end you are not OK with it, so you go back to being hurt.


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## thesunwillcomeout (Jun 25, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> @ TRy- In reference to your post # 40. I did ask him how he would feel if I did the same thing. And I asked the way you mentioned. He kind of got a weird look on his face and said that would be different because I am more backward and he knows if I was doing the things that he did, that I would somehow be more serious about it, compared to him doing it and it being only on a friendship level. Go figure?


Oh blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I suppose he thinks you're falling for it too? Geesh, he can't come up with something better than THAT??


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

I have a question about this fog that WH is in. Is the OW usually also in a fog? How can you tell which one would be pushing for it to move from an EA to a PA? Are there any signs that I could tell this, or are they both just idiots in a fog, just waiting for the other one to push it forward?


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## thesunwillcomeout (Jun 25, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> @ strugglinghusband & canttrustu - Honestly some days I think he really thinks what he did was okay, even as far as the kissing on the lips. Then other days I think, hell no, he knows what he did was very wrong. This is definitely a confusing time period for me.


I don't think it's confusing for you AT ALL. You KNOW it's wrong. I think what you described here shows his double-mindedness. He doesn't see it's wrong because he's given himself the "self-talk" that he's not harming anyone by his little secret dalliance that you don't know about...but he KNOWS it's wrong, that's why he continues to lie to you to try to keep it a secret. But there's no secret in that bag. It's out....now it's just a matter of finding out details and exposing.


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## thesunwillcomeout (Jun 25, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> ...are they both just idiots in a fog, just waiting for the other one to push it forward?


Yes! Both are in the fog. "Idiots in the fog" as you put it.

id·i·ot 
/ˈidēət/
Noun

A stupid person.
A mentally handicapped person.

Synonyms
fool - imbecile - blockhead - dunce - nitwit - dolt


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The fog is induced by chemicals in the brain: Love Chemical - Love Chemicals and Chemistry of Love


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

The fog is induced by chemicals in the brain, sort-of. It's more like the brain chemicals make it pleasant so they lie to themselves over and over until they have such a layer of lies they are ok with their crappy behavior, because that is the only way they can continue to go after the relationship that is giving them the chemical high... So it's a self induced fog, which is why it can be so hard to cut through. 

Yes they are both in a fog, but they didn't fall in. They walked in on their own free will.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Ginger, I have been following your thread. I can't remember every post, but I don't recall how many, if any, WS have responded, other than myself. I was WS at one time as well as BS at another time. Ours were EA, never to PA, which I truly believe was due to geography. I thank God that the geography was so great though! But yes, he knows what he has done/is doing is wrong. The thing is, he really doesn't care. He keeps trying to rationalize something...for which there is NO rationalization. Ginger, stand firm on this. Do not waver. You are right. He knows this. And he needs to acknowledge it if there is any chance of your marriage continuing....And that's the WS in me speaking... not just the BS.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

When I found out about my WWs A I became an unreasonable prick hell bent on getting her out of the house. 

That reaction cut through the fog quick, and forced a dose of reality on the playland in her head. You need to work that strategy and take a crap in his fantasy land or the A will continue, and only grow worse. No one has ever niced their WS out of an A.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Your H crossed the line of an EA long ago, by the sounds of things.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> Your H crossed the line of an EA long ago, by the sounds of things.


Sorry, but I'm betting on PA from the sounds of things.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> Your H crossed the line of an EA long ago, by the sounds of things.


Yes, I agree. When he kissed her, it crossed that particular line. And the fact that he was saying ILY and the like to her... it doesn't matter if she kissed him or he kissed her (which he will try to spin it to be the former, if he hasn't already)... he allowed it, regardless. He could have pushed her away. He could have backed away when she leaned in (if that's what happened)... btu he didn't. He allowed the kiss(es). And he has told the woman he loves her. I don't tell men that I love them unless they are family, which includes my husband. However, even with family, there are exceptions. Those who marry into the family, I don't say it. Those who are born into it, I do. 

Anyway, line is way past crossed and he needs to see you are not going to back down on this.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

I cannot tell all of you how great it is to hear from people that have been through this before and speak up to help those of us presently going through the same thing. I appreciate everyone telling me to stand firm, I truly think that has helped me to do just that, stand firm.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Hang In there Ginger. This wont be easy but it is your only choice. You have to be rock solid. No wavering. "I will not tolerate....." "THese are the consequences for continuing.... I wil absolutely DIVORCE YOU if you choose to continue". He needs to hear this and you need to MEAN it. Sometimes its the only way to get the WS' head out of his a$$. As its often said around her - You have to be willing to lose your marriage to save it.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> Hang In there Ginger. This wont be easy but it is your only choice. You have to be rock solid. No wavering. "I will not tolerate....." "THese are the consequences for continuing.... I wil absolutely DIVORCE YOU if you choose to continue". He needs to hear this and you need to MEAN it. Sometimes its the only way to get the WS' head out of his a$$.


:iagree:

With what you already have is MORE than enough, It's hurting you,hurting your marriage, you can keep digging for more,but why? whats the smoking gun your looking for? would it be enough for your husband to see where your coming from,I serioulsly doubt he would, he would just spin it off like he has with everything esle.

IOW, stick with the facts (you already have them) and like CTU is saying 
"Listen up, I'm not putting up with jack **** from you any longer, either she goes right EFFEN now or you will be served with divorce papers" mean it and follow thru, you should be talking with an Atty to see what your options are..


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

strugglinghusband said:


> :iagree:
> 
> With what you already have is MORE than enough, It's hurting you,hurting your marriage, you can keep digging for more,but why? whats the smoking gun your looking for? would it be enough for your husband to see where your coming from,I serioulsly doubt he would, he would just spin it off like he has with everything esle.
> 
> ...


You have to be willing to lose your marriage to save it. He had 2 choices- her or ME. Period. NO other options. Not somewhere in between. Once I came to TAM and realized just exactly how incidious EA's are- GAME OVER. "Her or ME. NO other choices. I will not compete for my H. Make a choice and IF you EVER turn back, even once, Im done" And thats the way Ive played the 'game'. Now, pls dont mistake that for me saying its been smooth sailing. OH GOD NO. But SHE hasnt been a factor. He walked away from her and NEVER looked back. HOWEVER, he remained with his head square up his arse for the better part of the following year.....so buckle up. Its not instantly back to the guy you know and love but three's a crowd Ginger and so long as she is in the picture AT ALL, you dont have a prayer.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

It makes so much sense that "you have to loose your marriage in order to save it." I keep repeating that in my head, and also to stand firm.
My husband admitted to talking with her this past week, about the phone conversation that we made to her that made her cry. Of course he only remembers parts like him saying "my wife asked me to do it several times and so I finally did", and her saying something about being typical. Of course he only remembers a small part of it and can't even remember how it came up. This is also after I repeatedly asked him if either one has talked about it, and he repeatedly said no. So I know he continues to lie to me.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Sweet Ginger said:


> It makes so much sense that "you have to loose your marriage in order to save it." I keep repeating that in my head, and also to stand firm.
> My husband admitted to talking with her this past week, about the phone conversation that we made to her that made her cry. Of course he only remembers parts like him saying "my wife asked me to do it several times and so I finally did", and her saying something about being *typical.* Of course he only remembers a small part of it and can't even remember how it came up. This is also after I repeatedly asked him if either one has talked about it, and he repeatedly said no. So I know he continues to lie to me.


Of course he remembers it all(phone conversation)again him putting HER before you,"My wife asked me to do it several times, so I finally did" he was more concerned about how she would take it and not you.

Typical, yes sir typical for a wife to be pissed off at some chick that is involved with her husband way deeper than she should be.

Yes they talked about the phone conversation, why in the world wouldnt they? being such close friends (she cried about it).


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

I agree and I dont say this lightly. my H had to resign to get NC so I know the pains of this but its not as bad as the impending D if he continues contact with her. Thats a guarantee. This will escalate. There are people on here who's H's have been ready to leave them in a matter of WEEKS! UFB. But true. Affairland is Unholy. Its unfathomable in its escalation ability. you must take action Ginger. You know for sure he's lying to you about her. You know for sure he's telling her he loves her. You know for sure he's kissing her. You know for sure he's putting her needs ahead of yours. What more do you need to put a stop to this???? Everyday that goes by is another day closer they are and another day they've pushed you OUT.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> I agree and I dont say this lightly. my H had to resign to get NC so I know the pains of this but its not as bad as the impending D if he continues contact with her. Thats a guarantee. This will escalate. There are people on here who's H's have been ready to leave them in a matter of WEEKS! UFB. But true. Affairland is Unholy. Its unfathomable in its escalation ability. you must take action Ginger. You know for sure he's lying to you about her. You know for sure he's telling her he loves her. You know for sure he's kissing her. You know for sure he's putting her needs ahead of yours. What more do you need to put a stop to this???? Everyday that goes by is another day closer they are and another day they've pushed you OUT.


:iagree:

Sad thing is, she is pretty much out, except physically.....


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

strugglinghusband said:


> Of course he remembers it all(phone conversation)again him putting HER before you,"My wife asked me to do it several times, so I finally did" he was more concerned about how she would take it and not you.
> 
> Typical, yes sir typical for a wife to be pissed off at some chick that is involved with her husband way deeper than she should be.
> 
> Yes they talked about the phone conversation, why in the world wouldnt they? being such close friends (she cried about it).


And just so you know my H's AP pulled the crying routine too. It works like a charm to reel them back in...... She's a pro and he's a sucker.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> And just so you know my H's AP pulled the crying routine too. It works like a charm to reel them back in...... She's a pro and he's a sucker.



Oh yeah the depths of the BS, you cant even begin to measure how deep it goes, After I got the TT and found out POSOM's wife had a boy friend and they were getting a divorce I got the "He was going thru a rough time and needed a friend" CRAP...
really poor ole POSOM is having a bad time, Welcome to my world A$$hole..boo hoo.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

strugglinghusband said:


> Oh yeah the depths of the BS, you cant even begin to measure how deep it goes, After I got the TT and found out POSOM's wife had a boy friend and they were getting a divorce I got the "He was going thru a rough time and needed a friend" CRAP...
> really poor ole POSOM is having a bad time, Welcome to my world A$$hole..boo hoo.


In this case I think "BS" is for Bullsh*t......lol

And yep, as I was on my knees in our bedroom My H had the audacity to tell me he was worried about "hurting her feelings"......I was litterally on my knees and had thrown up twice. Yeah, HER feelings were hurt. I'd been watching my H have an affair for mos. I'd seen and heard unfathomable things. and yet his concern was for HER. UFB. Yet thats the way a WS thinks. Its only the two of them, the BS(betrayed spouse) is not even on the radar. WE are only an afterthougtht when its time to lie bc they got sloppy.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

Funny. I heard the having a hard time excuse. I said "well now I'm having a hard time. How do you think I should handle it?"


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

You all are right. I do feel like when he had to more or less apologize for the phone call we made to her that it puts me outside their little team. I told him by him discussing the phone call with her it was like stabbing me in the back. I said you know you are right back on a personal level with her. He said he talks this way to all the guys at work. I said the only difference is you haven't kissed and hugged and told the guys at work that you love them and miss them, so this is totally different when you get personal with her. I told him he doesn't need to listen to all her complaints, like he is doing again. I said next time when she complains about her life to you, tell her to shut the f*** up, just like you told me when I was asking too many questions.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> You all are right. I do feel like when he had to more or less apologize for the phone call we made to her that it puts me outside their little team. I told him by him discussing the phone call with her it was like stabbing me in the back. I said you know you are right back on a personal level with her. He said he talks this way to all the guys at work. I said the only difference is you haven't kissed and hugged and told the guys at work that you love them and miss them, so this is totally different when you get personal with her. I told him he doesn't need to listen to all her complaints, like he is doing again. I said next time when she complains about her life to you, tell her to shut the f*** up, just like you told me when I was asking too many questions.


See part of the problem aside from the obvious of him being too involved with her is that he has NO consideration for you and the fact that youre uncomfortable. Lets say this isnt an affair(which imo it is) youre being immensely uncomfortable should be enough for himto back the hell off. But it isnt, thats very telling of his boundariies or lack there of. 

Again, I encourage you to take a good look at your intimate life and see if there have been significant changes in either direction. Alot more or alot less. Either would be condusive with an affair. Thats something to take note of for you. Also any new moves he may have suddenly. Or being overly nice or picking alot of fights. IOW, extremes of any kind. But IMO, he's given all you need to prove he's being unfaithful at very least. And likely having an affair with this woman.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Ginger it is you who should be saying "Shut the effe up.... I'm not buying any more of your Bull**** or listening to any more of your lies, Now sit down and shut the effe up and I'm gonna tell you how it's going to be, YOU GOT IT!"


I'm telling you, you have to be this way, fire in your eyes, meaning what you say, leaving no doubt of where you stand, anytime he tries to change the direction or spin it off, you just calmly hold your hand up and say 'Stop right there, I wont listen to it" and reiterate what you DEMANDED...nothing more, nothing less.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You know what would get him to fire her or quit that job?

You kicking him out of the house and saying "until you have absolutely no contact with that woman ever again, you have no place in this house. I will NOT be disrespected."


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

turnera said:


> You know what would get him to fire her or quit that job?
> 
> You kicking him out of the house and saying "until you have absolutely no contact with that woman ever again, you have no place in this house. I will NOT be disrespected."


Usually I dont go this way right off the bat but since he's admitted to kissing her and telling her he loves her.....we all know that is only the tip of the iceberg likely. And him saying "IDR" about the conversation about the phone call- Puh-lease sister! "IDR"& "IDK" are the top runners in the answers cheaters give. 

This is a rare case where I agree, put him out and talk when he comes to his senses. And by coming to his senses I mean she gets on another crew or he does.

Does your H own this company???


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

Just a question before I make any decisions about my marriage. Those of you that decided to stay with the WS do you still have trust issues or have it lessened with time? Just curios if I would get him away from OW would I really ever trust him again? And if you don't trust them after EA is over, how do you handle living with that?

@CTU - The one extreme change would be an increase in our sex life. If one thing would be different it might be that sometimes I feel like he kisses in a less sloppy way that he used to do. Also, he does not own the company.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Just a question before I make any decisions about my marriage. Those of you that decided to stay with the WS do you still have trust issues or have it lessened with time? Just curios if I would get him away from OW would I really ever trust him again? And if you don't trust them after EA is over, how do you handle living with that?
> 
> @CTU - The one extreme change would be an increase in our sex life. If one thing would be different it might be that sometimes I feel like he kisses in a less sloppy way that he used to do. Also, he does not own the company.


They say it takes 2-5 years, (I'm going on 2 soon) trust issues do lessen with time, IF you have a truly remorseful spouse, no rug sweeping...would you ever trust him again?, only you can decide that, yes it can be done.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

strugglinghusband said:


> They say it takes 2-5 years, (I'm going on 2 soon) trust issues do lessen with time, IF you have a truly remorseful spouse, no rug sweeping...would you ever trust him again?, only you can decide that, yes it can be done.


And provided THIS Affair is adequately dealt with and NOt swept under the rug. And theyre are consequences for his actions and he's truly remorseful and willing to deal with those consequences. 

Ginger the upturn in your sex life can be a sign of infidelity as you will read in NJF. Mine went the other way- straight down hill- which is also common. The key is 'change' that is significant during other suspicious activity i.e. telling another woman he loves her, misses her and kissing her and lying to you about it all. Seems to me he's geting his appetite during the day and coming home and eating his cake. Sorry, I know that sucks. Do something about it before he stops coming home to eat(if its not too late already), I implore you.


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## thesunwillcomeout (Jun 25, 2012)

Sweet Ginger....reading your husband's reaction is like reading the same story, CTU's, mine, everyone's just with minor changes. That protecting her and leaving you out. That business about hurting her feelings...(UGH, that triggered me a bit, because after DD2 my husband was hesitant to drop her from Facebook because she had "waited so long for him to accept her request and he was worried that it would hurt her feelings" WTF? I just found your cruddy emails, have taken off my ring, not returned your phone calls, not sure I can stay married to you and driven 2 hours east and you're giving me THAT? YEAH, I don't think so. 

Ginger, it's hard ball time. Don't give him any reason to take you for granted. Be strong in yourself. I don't know how far into "Not Just Friends" you are, but I do hope you're reading. I wish you could at least offer it to your husband. (I bought my husband his own copy, which he read. But that was after he had had a couple of emotional breakdowns when he realized our marriage was no longer a guarrantee. I just couldn't deal with wearing my wedding band, and told him I wasn't sure I could stay married to him. I didn't kick him out of the house -- but he did sleep on the floor. The only reason I didn't was because I was the one who wanted to leave. I was so tired of being his personal childcare assitant, cook, caretaker, blah blah blah and told him "If anyone gets to leave, I'm the one who gets to leave and you're gonna have to figure out how to deal with everyone knowing you're a cheater and you'll have to figure out how to take care of the kids, etc." It actually freaked him out...but that's what worked for me only because I was giving 90% to the marriage and he was in 10%.) 

Also, is there anyone at all you can expose this to? How close are you to the owner of his company? Wish you could get ahold of her ex-husband and dig for ideas on exposure. Bet that would be enlightening.

In any event, I'm so sorry you're going through this. You've been given really good advice here.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

thesunwillcomeout said:


> Sweet Ginger....reading your husband's reaction is like reading the same story, CTU's, mine, everyone's just with minor changes. That protecting her and leaving you out. That business about hurting her feelings...(UGH, that triggered me a bit, because after DD2 my husband was hesitant to drop her from Facebook because she had "waited so long for him to accept her request and he was worried that it would hurt her feelings" WTF? I just found your cruddy emails, have taken off my ring, not returned your phone calls, not sure I can stay married to you and driven 2 hours east and you're giving me THAT? YEAH, I don't think so.
> 
> Ginger, it's hard ball time. Don't give him any reason to take you for granted. Be strong in yourself. I don't know how far into "Not Just Friends" you are, but I do hope you're reading. I wish you could at least offer it to your husband. (I bought my husband his own copy, which he read. But that was after he had had a couple of emotional breakdowns when he realized our marriage was no longer a guarrantee. I just couldn't deal with wearing my wedding band, and told him I wasn't sure I could stay married to him. I didn't kick him out of the house -- but he did sleep on the floor. The only reason I didn't was because I was the one who wanted to leave. I was so tired of being his personal childcare assitant, cook, caretaker, blah blah blah and told him "If anyone gets to leave, I'm the one who gets to leave and you're gonna have to figure out how to deal with everyone knowing you're a cheater and you'll have to figure out how to take care of the kids, etc." It actually freaked him out...but that's what worked for me only because I was giving 90% to the marriage and he was in 10%.)
> 
> ...


What about HIS family????


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

@the sun - I am still reading NJF's. I have also read parts of it to my husband and he won't comment too much, but he does look like he might be taking some of it in. You are right about the advice I've been given on here, it is the BEST. 
@CTU - Both of his parents have passed. He has two brothers, but both have issues. One is bi-polar and the other has issues with depression. I did tell him if his mother was still alive, she would not be happy with your actions.

To all, I am trying to play hardball. When I asked why he talked with her about the phone call, of course as I said before he doesn't know why, he doesn't know who brought it up, and he doesn't remember hardly anything about the conversation. So this morning I called him at work, and told him when he comes home I want the answer to all three questions about him talking to her in reference to the phone conversation. I told him he had better not discuss this with her to get advice as to what to tell me tonight. And it had better be the God honest truth, or there will be consequences for lying to me yet again. And I let him know, I Can Not Live In A Marriage Filled With Lies!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Now just be prepared to kick him out if he does.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> @the sun - I am still reading NJF's. I have also read parts of it to my husband and he won't comment too much, but he does look like he might be taking some of it in. You are right about the advice I've been given on here, it is the BEST.
> @CTU - Both of his parents have passed. He has two brothers, but both have issues. One is bi-polar and the other has issues with depression. I did tell him if his mother was still alive, she would not be happy with your actions.
> 
> To all, I am trying to play hardball. When I asked why he talked with her about the phone call, of course as I said before he doesn't know why, he doesn't know who brought it up, and he doesn't remember hardly anything about the conversation. So this morning I called him at work, and told him when he comes home I want the answer to all three questions about him talking to her in reference to the phone conversation. I told him he had better not discuss this with her to get advice as to what to tell me tonight. And it had better be the God honest truth, or there will be consequences for lying to me yet again. And I let him know, I Can Not Live In A Marriage Filled With Lies!


Good.BUT you CANNOT dish out empty threats. YOU MUST FOLLOW THRU. If you dont, he will escalate his relationship with her bc he will lose even more respect for YOU.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Sweet Ginger said:


> @the sun - I am still reading NJF's. I have also read parts of it to my husband and he won't comment too much, but he does look like he might be taking some of it in. You are right about the advice I've been given on here, it is the BEST.
> @CTU - Both of his parents have passed. He has two brothers, but both have issues. One is bi-polar and the other has issues with depression. I did tell him if his mother was still alive, she would not be happy with your actions.
> 
> To all*, I am trying to play hardball.* When I asked why he talked with her about the phone call, of course as I said before he doesn't know why, he doesn't know who brought it up, and he doesn't remember hardly anything about the conversation. So this morning I called him at work, and told him when he comes home I want the answer to all three questions about him talking to her in reference to the phone conversation. I told him he had better not discuss this with her to get advice as to what to tell me tonight. And it had better be the God honest truth, or there will be consequences for lying to me yet again. And I let him know, I Can Not Live In A Marriage Filled With Lies!




Dont try to play hardball..PLAY HARDBALL!!! like the others are saying and have said all along...you have to follow thru, empty threats with no action will make you look weak.

I know it's hard and scary as hell, but once you get over the hump of being afraid, and in control of your life, you will look back and say " wow, what was I so afraid of " .... you really will.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

Okay here is the answer I got last night. He said he did bring it up. It was Friday before Easter and they were working side by side and she starts telling him all about her weekend plans. So he says to her "you know we are not suppose to be talking personal, remember the phone call we made to you about that?" Then he said the part about me repeatedly asking him to do it and him not wanting to do it, but finally gave it and called. And then she says that's typical. (I guess referring to me as a jealous wife). I told him he took her side when he told her he didn't want to do the call and that he let her know that he would like it go back to being good friends. He doesn't see it that way. I asked him what he was feeling when he talked to her and he said he was just trying to stop her from telling him about her personal life. We didn't get to finish our conversation because of family interruptions, and are going to continue it tonight and talk about what major step needs to be taken now.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Okay here is the answer I got last night. He said he did bring it up. It was Friday before Easter and they were working side by side and she starts telling him all about her weekend plans. So he says to her "you know we are not suppose to be talking personal, remember the phone call we made to you about that?" Then he said the part about me repeatedly asking him to do it and him not wanting to do it, but finally gave it and called. And then she says that's typical. (I guess referring to me as a jealous wife). I told him he took her side when he told her he didn't want to do the call and that he let her know that he would like it go back to being good friends. He doesn't see it that way. I asked him what he was feeling when he talked to her and he said he was just trying to stop her from telling him about her personal life. We didn't get to finish our conversation because of family interruptions, and are going to continue it tonight and talk about what major step needs to be taken now.


But Ginger you KNOW for a fact taht what he's telling you here-*'he said he was just trying to stop her from telling him about her personal life'*- So you KNOW he's being dishonest with you here and the problem is you gave him ALL day and time to discuss with HER what to say to you to pacify you. And the 'thats typical' tells me that this woman is used to going around and messing with married men.....She's a predator and you've got big problems bc your H is out of his league here.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Ginger he is semi-telling you want you want to hear, like he's got this under control, (no he dosent not by a long shot), the only thing/person he has under control is YOU and I agree with CTU, this chick isnt divorced for no reason.

You are being managed here, plain and simple, he says he will scale it back, how? by telling you what you want to hear and not giving her up, you can talk and talk until the cows come home..ACTIONS speak way louder than words and so far the only action you are really seeing is that he is still in contact with her DAILY, a chick he kissed and tells her he loves her..........


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

@CTU - He told me in the beginning when I first found the voice message, that when he talked to her and told her he would not be flirting with her anymore that she said, "this isn't the first time that a wife had a problem with me."

@Struggling - I know he is semi-telling me what I want to hear. But once we got interrupted I didn't want to try to finish the conversation knowing that there was a chance we were going to be interrupted again. So we will finish that tonight and action is what I meant about taking the next step.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The problem is, he's too freakin' dumb to tell you the RIGHT things to stop you worrying. 

Personally, I would be packing his bags and saying 'let me know when you're ready to choose me over that girl and that job.'


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

turnera said:


> The problem is, he's too freakin' dumb to tell you the RIGHT things to stop you worrying.
> 
> Personally, I would be packing his bags and saying 'let me know when you're ready to choose me over that girl and that job.'


Well Hes not to dumb, He just plain ole doesnt HAVE to. He's not required to. He is getting away with what he's doing so why change anything????


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> @CTU - He told me in the beginning when I first found the voice message, that when he talked to her and told her he would not be flirting with her anymore that she said, *"this isn't the first time that a wife had a problem with me."*
> 
> @Struggling - I know he is semi-telling me what I want to hear. But once we got interrupted I didn't want to try to finish the conversation knowing that there was a chance we were going to be interrupted again. So we will finish that tonight and action is what I meant about taking the next step.


Hmmmm... WHY am I not surprised at this???


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

I just want to let everyone know that even though I am moving slowing on this, I do have a plan. I have already opened an account in my name and have transferred money into it. 
And I do realize the OW is a veteran at what she does. Her personality is total opposite of mine and I really don't know what she is capable of doing.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Did you have your follow up talk with your H, SG?

What are your concerns (when you say you don't know what she's capable of doing) with the OW?


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

@azteca- My follow up talk is post # 128.

I guess my concern with the OW is her coming on stronger to get what she wants, and also if she doesn't get what she wants, I think she is the type to make trouble or get revenge on him or me.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Right. You mentioned that you were interrupted, so I was wondering if you had been able to conclude your chat. Apologies if I got the wrong end of the stick there. 

As for the OW, she does seem to enjoy the power to mess with other people's relationships. But remember, when she was confronted by you (and H) on the phone she reacted by turning on the waterworks. Effective manipulation for your H, but not the strongest response with regard to you. 

Anyway, she's not your immediate concern right now. 

H is still failing to see things from your point of view, which is the biggest barrier you face in getting him to see her as a threat to your marriage. Therefore reason will most likely fall on deaf ears. 

He wants things to stay much as they are and if he can stall you long enough, he's hoping you either get bored or learn to live with it.

I hope your plan will shake him out of his complacency.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

@Azteca, Yes we actually we were to continue that conversation tonight. But unfortunately when I went to the high school to pick up one daughter and then to the college to get the other daughter, he proceeded to get drunk. Not to the point that he would have loose lips, but to the point that he would just keep repeating the same thing and I wouldn't be able to have a real conversation with him. Not sure if you read on earlier post that he also has a drinking problem.
Thanks for the support, I too hope it shakes him out of his complacency.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Perhaps it was another stalling tactic; perhaps not. Best not to introduce alcohol to this discussions anyway.

You're getting your 'ducks in a row'. Consult with a lawyer with the extra day, if you haven't already. Your H can't be allowed to let this situation continue as it is. He needs to be very clear of the serious of your intent.

I think your head is getting there. Good luck to you.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

My mantra is that when a spouse is sharing things with another person of the opposite sex that should consumately remain within the framework of their marriage, then that grossly represents infidelity, more specifically an "emotional affair," or EA.

I haven't even given lip service to the other yet. But in my learned opinion, either of them are _waaaaay_ over the line!


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

Help...............I got the information I needed with my VAR. It is very clear that my husband is flirting with this women in a very sexual way. After he lied and told me he had stopped and would never do it again. I stood my ground, and didn't reveal my source, and told him I would have a bag packed for him when he gets home this afternoon from helping his cousin do a tree job. He doesn't want to go, and says he doesn't want the OW, and now wants him and I to go to a MC. I told him it is no use to go to a MC when you can't stop lying, so I'm sure you would just lie to the MC. I need to hear some support.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Ginger, this is what you expected. Remember we talked about this. Now you absolutely MUST stand your ground! If you waffle now, you lose forever. You CANNOT give in. Give him two options, he either gets rid of her by having her transferred TODAY in a way you can verify and you go to marriage counseling with a NC letter. NO exception. NONE. OR you file for D. PERIOD. Blow this wide the hell open. EXPOSE. EXPOSE. EXPOSE. Their supervisor needs to know. His JOB is not as important as his MARRIAGE. Do NOT buckle. THis is the beginning of the hard part I told you about. Buckle up Ginger. You can do this. Stand your ground. He is fully expecting to talk his way out of this. Do NoT fall for the 'script'. Accept NOTHING short of what Ive described above. And yOU verify everything he does. EVERYTHING. Cheaters lie. Period.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Sweet Ginger said:


> I told him it is no use to go to a MC when you can't stop lying, so I'm sure you would just lie to the MC.


Brilliant job on calling him out on the MC! More stalling from him by the sounds of it.

The OW has to be out of his life pronto. You're doing great, keep going!


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## Rags (Aug 2, 2010)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Help................ I need to hear some support.


You got it.

You know what you need to do - you're doing the right thing.

It will be hard, and he's not used to you standing up like this, so he won't react in an expected way, and he'll try to talk you you of it.

But you _know_ what you need to do. Be strong. If you are to have any hope for your marriage in the future, you need to know that he's going to do the right thing - and that means he either does the right thing, right now, or he's divorced.

Otherwise you'll never be secure, because you know he isn't doing the right thing on his own. If he gets away with it now, he'll believe he always can.

You are doing the right thing. Keep it up.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Hey Ginger, how ya doin??? You ok today?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ginger, remember that you have to TEACH him to respect you, and this is the A#1 way to accomplish that - her or me. Period. No discussion.


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## thesunwillcomeout (Jun 25, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> I just want to let everyone know that even though I am moving slowing on this, I do have a plan. I have already opened an account in my name and have transferred money into it.
> And I do realize the OW is a veteran at what she does. Her personality is total opposite of mine and I really don't know what she is capable of doing.


That's good -- and she's certainly not bright. For her to say this "this isn't the first time that a wife had a problem with me." is just, well, dumb. No shugga sherlock. She probably thought she was being cute saying that. "I'm so 'all that' that wives have trouble with me." Noooo, you're so 'all that' that you haven't learned your lesson and life's eventually gonna catch up to you. It's not a matter of "if", it's a matter of "when". Karma. Sewing and reaping. There are some principles in life that are indisputable.


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## thesunwillcomeout (Jun 25, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> @azteca- My follow up talk is post # 128.
> 
> I guess my concern with the OW is her coming on stronger to get what she wants, and also if she doesn't get what she wants, I think she is the type to make trouble or get revenge on him or me.


Honestly, if my husband's OW had tried to "get revenge" on me I would've welcomed it cuz I coulda sunk her ship. I did A LOT of research on her....dug at work, dug online, dug around town. I have dirt on the chick if I ever need it. 

When I went to visit her husband and have a follow-up talk with him she was pissed off because she couldn't control me. She thought I was gonna go quietly and that I was all sweet and I forgive you and so on. Visiting her husband let him know that it had affected me a lot more deeply than what she was probably telling him. I also told him I had seen it coming and told him I didn't want them working together -- that I wanted my husband to leave his job. He said he wanted her to leave as well. After we talked we both said we were gonna let our waywards know that we had talked. She was PISSED OFF and went storming into my husband's office and slammed the door. (That helped a touch of the fog burn off for him when he saw her inner bayatch! Not so sweet and "whatever you want" anymore.) In any case she told him to tell me to "never speak to my family again". Yeah, right! Like that was effective. Or else she'd what? throw a temper tantrum with me??? There are too many people in this town where SHE grew up that I could tell about her predatory ways, not just with my husband but with other men! I'm getting long-winded. All of this is to tell you NOT to be afraid of your husband's AP's empty threats. SHE can't hurt you. She has NOTHING on you. You are the one in the strong position. Don't let the wimp intimidate you. You have to remember the coward's position is to cheat. BE brave, be strong. (And I say that knowing that we're all capable of falling down on a myriad of different points. Not a single one of us on TAM is blameless in everything....but on this, your marriage, there is no shame in protecting that Flush you have in your hands. She has nothing in hers. And your husband, he's the real issue..... and that's coming from someone who has spent a ton of time focusing on the OW instead of my WS! (still do at times. Big ol' plank in my own eye.)


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

> Help...............I got the information I needed [...] I need to hear some support.


I'm so sorry for what you are dealing with. I can only imagine it must hurt very very much to hear his words. You seem like a strong person, and there is much support and wisdom from folks here. You deserve something better, and I suspect you now have the clarity you need to find the strength and courage to get what you deserve, one way or another. I wish you the best in the days to come.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Help...............I got the information I needed with my VAR. It is very clear that my husband is flirting with this women in a very sexual way. After he lied and told me he had stopped and would never do it again. I stood my ground, and didn't reveal my source, and told him I would have a bag packed for him when he gets home this afternoon from helping his cousin do a tree job. He doesn't want to go, and says he doesn't want the OW, and now wants him and I to go to a MC. I told him it is no use to go to a MC when you can't stop lying, so I'm sure you would just lie to the MC. I need to hear some support.


The underlined is him trying to manage you yet again, giving you something, throwing out a bone offering MC, hoping you will take it and he can continue to work with her and eat his cake, 
tell him... 
"Yeah sure we will go MC, right after you or her leaves the crew FIRST! other than that we have nothing to talk about"...


He will continue to lie his a$$ off, you have to hold him accountable, if you don't stand up for yourself, who will?


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

OMG what a weekend. All of you have been so right. I had his bag packed when he came home Saturday afternoon. He said repeatedly that he didn't want to go and looked like a wounded puppy. It was like I had all your posts in my head as I told him, no you have to go. He asked where should he go and I said you need to call one of your male friends and go there. But if you decide to run to your ***** (sorry about the language), you can have no hope of reconciling with me. He called one of his male friends and stayed at his house. He called me Sunday late morning and asked if he could come home just to talk, and I let him. He ended up totally opening up to his friend and his friend told him how hurtful he was acting to me and the lying was horrible and that he can expect me not to trust him completely for a very long time. He also now says he is remorseful. Now as to getting rid of her. I called the foreman that she was working under before she was transferred to my husband's crew. She had told my husband that she was transferred because her foreman wasn't doing his job. Funny thing when I talked to her formal foreman, he had quite the tale about her. He said she wasn't doing her job and he documented everything that she was not doing in her job and he felt she wasn't even qualified to do the job. He said he reported her and wanted her off his crew asap. He says now his crew if getting the job done in a timely manner. My husband and I are going to call his employer in the middle of the week. But first I wanted him to tell her that he now knows what he was doing was very wrong and that his marriage is more important to him than she will ever be. I also told him to tell her she needs to respect him as her foreman and that she has no business in his big truck. I wanted to hear the conversation this morning, so he called me on his cell phone and stuck it in his pocket so I could hear what he was saying to her. He told her what I wanted and said my wife is way more important to me than you are, and she said some whiny **** about "well how are we suppose to work together", and he told her I as you foreman will tell you to set out the cones or drag brush and you will do it, and you need to stay out of the big truck. I asked him what her expression was as he was saying this, he said she kind had a blank expression on her face. He said his piece and then got in the big truck and pulled the phone out of his pocket to talk to me. I told him not to tell her what are plans are as far as talking to the employer. I told him he needs to document any thing she does or says that is not appropriate and then when we talk to the employer we will request her to be moved and then her a** is out of there! I told him his actions this week will directly affect the outcome of his marriage and that this is a very important week for him.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Wow! Sweet Ginger you've done superbly well. Posters are often advised to pack the bags of their husband's/wive's, but I don't think I've ever read such an effective outcome. Well done.

Your husband's friend (and your ultimatum) seems to have finally woken your husband up. That conversation was, of course, a consequence of your clearly defined boundaries/expectations - and having consequences if H chose badly. Well done there too



Sweet Ginger said:


> I told him his actions this week will directly affect the outcome of his marriage and that this is a very important week for him.


Excellent way to frame H's immediate future.

I don't have much constructive to add at the present, so this will have to do :smthumbup:


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Ginger, be advised taht this was WAY too easy. WAY too easy. Be prepared for this to go underground. The facts are it just usually doesnt go down this way. A WS doesnt usually 'get it' this easily. Beware of being gaslighted and TT'd and further mislead. YOU need to follow up with the supervisor AND he needs to write her a NC letter that YOU mail. They now have several days to formulate a 'plan' of how to deceive you. Did you disclose your source???


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Sweet Ginger said:


> He said something about the grass being greener and the fact that I do not initiate affection, (I am not a very forward person with most things in my life, but I am willing to be affectionate when he is initiating),


You had better start initiating because this is a valid complaint from a lot of men and quite honestly probably the reason he's seeking validation from another woman.

I'm not justifying his actions with this woman because I see it as an emotional affair.
Just stop giving him this excuse to look elsewhere.

Start meeting his needs and he'll have no excuse to look elsewhere.

In the mean time keep a very close eye on his interactions with the OW


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Ginger you do know, shes got to go ASAP, to another crew or better yet just plain go down the road, do not settle for anything less than 100% No Contact..NONE at all... he cant be her boss, he cant be her friend, he cant be her anything!


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

tacoma said:


> You had better start initiating because this is a valid complaint from a lot of men and quite honestly probably the reason he's seeking validation from another woman.
> 
> I'm not justifying his actions with this woman because I see it as an emotional affair.
> Just stop giving him this excuse to look elsewhere.
> ...


This is called blameshifting! THIS is not why he had an affair! Total Bullsh*t. Dont fall for this sh*t Ginger. Youre not withholding from him rihgt? You dont refuse him? And its difficult to initiate when he's all up in some other womans skirt.....

Dont let him blameshift this onto you.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> This is called blameshifting! THIS is not why he had an affair! Total Bullsh*t. Dont fall for this sh*t Ginger. Youre not withholding from him rihgt? You dont refuse him? And its difficult to initiate when he's all up in some other womans skirt.....
> 
> Dont let him blameshift this onto you.


You need to look up the definition of "blameshifting".

Her husband stated he feels a lack of affection from her and she herself confirmed she doesn't initiate affection towards him.

Gingers strategy is working very well and I'm impressed with her fortitude BUT if she doesn't want a re-run with yet another OW in the future she should listen to his concerns.

Affairs happen for many reasons and very often those reasons are that the WS is looking for something he/she isn't getting at home.

It was fairly easy for this OW to get her claws into Gingers man.
It would have been much more difficult for her if he hadn't felt like his wife wasn't into him.

He has a lot to work on, she has to work on this as well.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

tacoma said:


> You need to look up the definition of "blameshifting".
> 
> Her husband stated he feels a lack of affection from her and she herself confirmed she doesn't initiate affection towards him.
> 
> ...


NO. She said she does not initiate affection BUT she does return it.

And I would bet knowing your H is kissing another woman and telling another woman he loves her is less than motivating to do so...


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

tacoma said:


> You need to look up the definition of "blameshifting".
> 
> Her husband stated he feels a lack of affection from her and she herself confirmed she doesn't initiate affection towards him.
> 
> ...



NO. Blameshifting is when they put the blame for having an affair on the BS. When they make excuses for the affair based on the perceived state of the marriage. YOU need to look up blameshifting.

He is saying bc she is not affectionate he is entitiled to an affair. Total BS. She is not initiating but she also not refusing according to Ginger. When a WS says the 'the grass is greener' kind of statement or that the affection is lacking when 'explaining the reason' for the affair-thats blameshifting. THe reason for the affair is selfishness. The marriage may hae issues and one of them may be that she needs to initiate more but he had other alternatives to that

1. MC
2. Ignore and continue
3. Divorce

But he chose to cheat and then use 'lack of initiating' as an EXCUSE. IOW-blameshifting. 

And Im sure its hard to initiate when your H is kissing another woman and telling her he loves her.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

canttrustu said:


> This is called blameshifting! THIS is not why he had an affair! Total Bullsh*t. Dont fall for this sh*t Ginger. Youre not withholding from him rihgt? You dont refuse him? And its difficult to initiate when he's all up in some other womans skirt.....
> 
> Dont let him blameshift this onto you.


It may be blameshifting, but research shows that a man's #1 need is almost ALWAYS sex with his wife; it's how he feels loved. If she will only do it when HE initiates, he is left feeling unwanted and unloved. I agree that, now that this appears to be settled, she needs to address this side of her and see what she can do to get outside her comfort zone - to SHOW him her love of him.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And Ginger...you go, girl! VERY well played. Now you need to follow the script for boundaries:
You have his passwords for his phone/computer
You can check it whenever you want
He lets you know where he is if he ever deviates from his routine
He agrees to not befriend anyone of the opposite sex unless you, too, are friends with her - and absolutely no time alone with any woman
You two go to MC to start mending fences and learning more about each other


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

turnera said:


> It may be blameshifting, but research shows that a man's #1 need is almost ALWAYS sex with his wife; it's how he feels loved. If she will only do it when HE initiates, he is left feeling unwanted and unloved. I agree that, now that this appears to be settled, she needs to address this side of her and see what she can do to get outside her comfort zone - to SHOW him her love of him.


I really think we are putting the cart before the horse here. There is still contact.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

turnera said:


> It may be blameshifting, but research shows that a man's #1 need is almost ALWAYS sex with his wife; it's how he feels loved. If she will only do it when HE initiates, he is left feeling unwanted and unloved. I agree that, now that this appears to be settled, she needs to address this side of her and see what she can do to get outside her comfort zone - to SHOW him her love of him.


You want this to happen the same week she caught him LYING, deceiving, and telling another woman he loves her???? Wow.

Lets not forget he HAD HER TRANSFERRED to him. She tried to call him out several times and he outright lied to her. Why are we all assuming we can sing kumbya just yet?????? While they are stil working together all day everyday.....Is this the twilight zone?


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

TAM definition of Blame shifting.

_*Blameshifting* - The WS will justify their decision to engage in the affair by blaming the faults and perceived problems caused by the BS in the marriage. It is important to note that these problems of the marriage will often be exaggerated, made up or the BS will be vilified. Blameshifting is usually the first reaction of a WS when caught and confronted with the proof of their affair. (ie. "If you paid more attention to me I wouldn't have had the affair") Most here believe that marital problems are shared 50/50 but the affair is 100% the fault of the WS as the WS had more honorable actions to choose from regarding marital strife._

Ginger can not be held accountable for his actions, only her own. He needed to speak up about his needs not being met before hand, even if she was meeting his needs would he have stepped outside the marriage? Would it have been harder for her to get her hooks in him? possibly, that's something, that needs to addressed in counseling.


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## foolme2x (Jan 1, 2013)

So I can kiss another man, tell him I love him, and then claim I didn't realize I was doing anything wrong -- and then blame it all on my husband?? Awesome!!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

canttrustu said:


> You want this to happen the same week she caught him LYING, deceiving, and telling another woman he loves her???? Wow.
> 
> Lets not forget he HAD HER TRANSFERRED to him. She tried to call him out several times and he outright lied to her. Why are we all assuming we can sing kumbya just yet?????? While they are stil working together all day everyday.....Is this the twilight zone?


 Notice I said APPEARS to have been settled...

And I made no such comment about crazy wild sex THIS WEEK. I just said to be aware that this is an area she needs to be more aware of, and be honest with herself if she's going to stay in this marriage.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

turnera said:


> Notice I said APPEARS to have been settled...
> 
> And I made no such comment about crazy wild sex THIS WEEK. I just said to be aware that this is an area she needs to be more aware of, and be honest with herself if she's going to stay in this marriage.


And I completely agree with you once the affair is over and they begin R and are in MC. BUT so far as Im concerned, while there is continued contact this conversation about what she needs to do to make him happy is pointless just yet. The very first thing to be done is for him to go complete NC. And I know Turnera that you agree. You and I have been thru this together many times.

I worry we are putting the cart before the horse by worrying how to 'fix' the marriage before we triage the wounds....


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

canttrustu said:


> Ginger, be advised taht this was WAY too easy. WAY too easy. Be prepared for this to go underground. The facts are it just jusually doesnt go down this way. A WS doesnt usually 'get it' this easily. Beware of being gaslighted and TT'd and further mislead. YOU need to follow up with the supervisor AND he needs to write her a NC letter that YOU mail. They now have several days to formulate a 'plan' of how to deceive you. Did you disclose your source???


Cantrustu - I know this can not be this easy. I am giving him two days to work with her after telling her this morning. Today counts as one day. I did not reveal my source. I told him someone was watching him and heard what they were talking about. I was hoping to use a VAR tomorrow, if I can hide it well enough. And there are still some unanswered questions that I believe he is still withholding from me.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

tacoma said:


> And *nobody ever said she was **accountable for the affair.*
> Although cantrustu did make a nice play to twist my words that way.
> 
> The reading comprehension in the forum needs some serious improvement.


I never said anyone did either....

The point I was trying to get across was to ginger, for her to not feel in any shape or form the she was to blame/responsible 
for his actions. Which she has felt that way to some degree.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

tacoma said:


> You had better start initiating because this is a valid complaint from a lot of men and quite honestly probably the reason he's seeking validation from another woman.
> 
> I'm not justifying his actions with this woman because I see it as an emotional affair.
> Just stop giving him this excuse to look elsewhere.
> ...


@Tacoma, Quite honestly for the past 3 months I have been having hysterical bonding sex with my husband. And during all this time, he was continuing to lie to me about flirting with her.I do know that I need to keep up with my end on this, but like Cantrustu said it is hard to take the lead when I keep thinking about my husband kissing another woman and telling her he loves her and misses her. I wish my husband would have taken the time to tell me he wanted me to initiate with him, instead of taking the time to build an emotional relationship with her.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

strugglinghusband said:


> Ginger you do know, shes got to go ASAP, to another crew or better yet just plain go down the road, do not settle for anything less than 100% No Contact..NONE at all... he cant be her boss, he cant be her friend, he cant be her anything!


@Struggling, Yes I do know she has to go. Wednesday is my deadline in my head.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Cantrustu - I know this can not be this easy. I am giving him two days to work with her after telling her this morning. Today counts as one day. I did not reveal my source. I told him someone was watching him and heard what they were talking about. I was hoping to use a VAR tomorrow, if I can hide it well enough. And there are still some unanswered questions that I believe he is still withholding from me.


just pls be careful. In two days alot of planning and scheming can go on between them. they can very easily take this underground. And above all Ginger, do not take any of the blame for this. He had other choices.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

turnera said:


> And Ginger...you go, girl! VERY well played. Now you need to follow the script for boundaries:
> You have his passwords for his phone/computer
> You can check it whenever you want
> He lets you know where he is if he ever deviates from his routine
> ...


I agree it is time to set the boundaries.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Hey, guys there's value in the plurality of the opinions expressed so far 

From her post, Sweet Ginger is holding her H to his ACTIONS in the coming week; up to and including get rid of the OW from H's work life. Until that point he's on thin ice. That won't be the end of the matter, I'm sure.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

canttrustu said:


> just pls be careful. In two days alot of planning and scheming can go on between them. they can very easily take this underground. And above all Ginger, do not take any of the blame for this. He had other choices.


@Cantrustu - I know and I may change my mind and do it tomorrow. Today is going to be a long day waiting to see what he tells me when he comes home. And I do feel like he is still going to lie to me about stuff. I was even thinking about him and I going to the bosses home and both of us talking to both of them. The business is owned by a husband and wife. The wife is friends with me on facebook and a lot of times she will comment on post or pictures I put up of me and my family. So I feel like I have gotten to know her a little more than just being a co-owner of the place where my husband works.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Ginger, I'm sorry forgot to say "That a Girl" :smthumbup:

Continue to take the lead here, setting boundaries and sticking to them is hard at first, but once you got it, you got it.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> @Cantrustu - I know and I may change my mind and do it tomorrow. Today is going to be a long day waiting to see what he tells me when he comes home. And I do feel like he is still going to lie to me about stuff. I was even thinking about him and I going to the bosses home and both of us talking to both of them. The business is owned by a husband and wife. The wife is friends with me on facebook and a lot of times she will comment on post or pictures I put up of me and my family. So I feel like I have gotten to know her a little more than just being a co-owner of the place where my husband works.


I suggest you take all available avenues. Speak to the owners wife woman to woman...


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

canttrustu said:


> I suggest you take all available avenues. Speak to the owners wife woman to woman...


I thought about that, to appeal to her wife side. She is a very business no nonsense compassionate person.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Ginger - 

You seem to be making the transition from being afraid to challenge your H to feeling confident about yourself. The fear of rattling the WS's cage too much is very common. We worry that it will push him/her into the other's arms or make the marriage even more tenuous than it already is.

As you seem to have learned, this fear is counterproductive. If you remain afraid, it's a virtual certainty that your M will be doomed. Instead, you have to act decisively and with the confidence that you absolutely deserve a faithful husband. You should never accept anything else. He should never be allowed to engage in behavior that hurts you and makes you fearful and doubtful. Never. You have to be strong enough to insist on that for yourself.

It is extremely common here to read about all the reasons that people give for infidelity. Rewriting the marital history to justify it is so common as to be the norm, I would bet. There's been a discussion about your sex life, but I would agree with those that that is an issue to be addressed between you or with an MC only AFTER you have killed this affair. If he continues to cheat, any sex issues will be irrelevant anyway. If he doesn't and you want your marriage, you can address it in your reconciliation.

From what I've read, this is an OW who will not easily go away, but will also definitely not be the type of woman that your H wants for the long-term. If he continues his A with her, I would bet the store that he will very quickly deeply regret losing you over it.

And he has to see that he will lose you. No hedging. You have to take control of this and he has to be aware of the consequences. You draw a very clear line in the sand. It is, after all, your life and you have a right to be in control of it.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

My husband called me at lunch to tell me she did say one non business thing to him. She saw a dead buck lying off the road and asked my husband how she could get the antlers off the buck. He told her to get a chainsaw and cut them off. I told him he doesn't need to help her with this project. He said he didn't that she already did it herself. What a lady!


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Sweet Ginger said:


> My husband called me at lunch to tell me she did say one non business thing to him. She saw a dead buck lying off the road and asked my husband how she could get the antlers off the buck. He told her to get a chainsaw and cut them off. I told him he doesn't need to help her with this project. He said he didn't that she already did it herself. What a lady!


She's already hunting up another buck I see, hmmm and a dead one at that, maybe thats the only kind she will get in the future


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> I thought about that, to appeal to her wife side. She is a very business no nonsense compassionate person.


Also, realize your H could be in some trouble as well. He is the superior, no? But ginger, your M is the most important issue at hand here. And I'd bet she has had this behaviour before and your H has not....The owners wife will appreciate the honesty from you and will not like the 'predatory' nature of this OW who possibly has access at times ther her H as well.....


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> My husband called me at lunch to tell me she did say one non business thing to him. She saw a dead buck lying off the road and asked my husband how she could get the antlers off the buck. He told her to get a chainsaw and cut them off. I told him he doesn't need to help her with this project. He said he didn't that she already did it herself. What a lady!


he should NOT have answered her. This is what you have to understand. NO contact means NO contact. NONE. NO extra conversation. NO "good morning" NO "how can I do this" NOthing unless its work related. And get busy getting her out of there.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> Ginger -
> 
> You seem to be making the transition from being afraid to challenge your H to feeling confident about yourself. The fear of rattling the WS's cage too much is very common. We worry that it will push him/her into the other's arms or make the marriage even more tenuous than it already is.
> 
> ...


You are right and I am seeing everyday that I have more control that I ever thought I had. I told him this morning that is not by far out of the woods. This woman is a total opposite personality from me and I don't think he would actually be happy with her. I think his head is in this fog that everyone mentions.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

strugglinghusband said:


> She's already hunting up another buck I see, hmmm and a dead one at that, maybe thats the only kind she will get in the future


Too funny!


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

canttrustu said:


> Also, realize your H could be in some trouble as well. He is the superior, no? But ginger, your M is the most important issue at hand here. And I'd bet she has had this behaviour before and your H has not....The owners wife will appreciate the honesty from you and will not like the 'predatory' nature of this OW who possibly has access at times ther her H as well.....


You are right she has had this kind of behavior before. My H has always been on the jokey side. He was the class clown type. Something about her brought out a jokey sexual behavior.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

canttrustu said:


> he should NOT have answered her. This is what you have to understand. NO contact means NO contact. NONE. NO extra conversation. NO "good morning" NO "how can I do this" NOthing unless its work related. And get busy getting her out of there.


I wish I would have thought of that when I was on the phone. Good point.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> You are right and I am seeing everyday that I have more control that I ever thought I had. I told him this morning that is not by far out of the woods. This woman is a total opposite personality from me and I don't think he would actually be happy with her. I think his head is in this fog that everyone mentions.


Yep, and thats why you cant take him at his word just yet. The fog is powerful Ginger. As long as she is in his face so to speak, you've got trouble. he will lie. Even if he doesnt want to, he will find himself doing so. Not saying he CANT control it but saying the pull is very strong and he likely wont. NC is the ONLY way. My H continued to work with AP for a couple of mos after dday- pure misery and he didnt even begin to come out of it. Not even a little. Dont know of any who have while still in contact. NOt one.

Ask Thesunwillcomeout. Ask Entropy3000. Ask Strugglinghusband. Ask anyone who has dealt with a workplace affair. Coming out of the fog while still seeing AP is EXTREMELY unlikely.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Something about her brought out a jokey sexual behavior.


Yes. Completely inappropriate flirty behavior and intimate conversation brought this out. And don't kid yourself. It's mutual. It sounds like the VAR recording made this clear.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Yep, she will keep fishing, trying to find the right bait until he bites 
"the buck antlers didn't work, what should I try next?"

You could bet the farm on it...


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> Yes. Completely inappropriate flirty behavior and intimate conversation brought this out. And don't kid yourself. It's mutual. It sounds like the VAR recording made this clear.


Oh yeah, the ping pong between AP's is sickening. If they ever put that much effort into their marriages there would likely be no problems now. At least I can say thats the case in my H's A. He put ALOT of effort into her. ALOT. Putting that much into your marriage doesnt make them 'high' so they dont do it. Instead they choose fantasy land. 

Ginger, what you heard on the VAR- did it confirm, in your mind that it was "only" an EA? or do you believe it could be more??


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

canttrustu said:


> Oh yeah, the ping pong between AP's is sickening. If they ever put that much effort into their marriages there would likely be no problems now. At least I can say thats the case in my H's A. He put ALOT of effort into her. ALOT. Putting that much into your marriage doesnt make them 'high' so they dont do it. Instead they choose fantasy land.
> 
> Ginger, what you heard on the VAR- did it confirm, in your mind that it was "only" an EA? or do you believe it could be more??


One part I heard from last week was sexual flirting.
Her - I'm going to take off now.
Him- You're going to take it all off now?
Her- That's what I said.
Him- Well it's going to be a long weekend. You know what I will be thinking about all weekend.

One part I heard from the week before.
He is on the phone talking to me in his big truck. He turns the conversation to sex and what he would like to do with me when he gets home. He says well I have to now I'm getting horny. It should like someone whispers something at this point. I never hear the door open or close and after he hangs up with me I hear him say to her. "I thought you were going to say something" and then he says "I love the sex" and she laughs and says "is that what you like to do?" and he says "that is what I like" and she says "is that all you are going to tell me?" And then it switches to business talk. Not sure what I think about this? Why would he call me in front of her and talk about sex with me with her listening?


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Sweet Ginger said:


> One part I heard from last week was sexual flirting.
> Her - I'm going to take off now.
> Him- You're going to take it all off now?
> Her- That's what I said.
> ...


1) To throw you off track, making you think he is thinking about you.

2) To spice it up between them taking it up a notch or five!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Not sure what I think about this? Why would he call me in front of her and talk about sex with me with her listening?


 Because they've been regular PA partners and talking to you in front of her is old hat now. I hope you keep using the VAR.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> One part I heard from last week was sexual flirting.
> Her - I'm going to take off now.
> Him- You're going to take it all off now?
> Her- That's what I said.
> ...


Wow. Thats kind of scary Ginger. Sounds like they get off on bringing you into the mix w/o your knowledge. A kind of torture. they hang up and laugh kind of thing. Very sad.

This kind of conversation makes me concerned it could be PA which will make this an EA/PA and so much more difficult to both end and get over.

This leaves me NO doubt that YOU MUST speak to his supervisor.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Why would he call me in front of her and talk about sex with me with her listening?


It's a devious way to talk dirty to her, especially if he's looking at her whilst talking.

It's totally inappropriate to make that call in her (or anyone else's)
presence.

I know you already read this, but don't cough up the VAR or you methods. You'll need it later once/if she's removed from the team.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

azteca1986 said:


> *It's a devious way to talk dirty to her,* especially if he's looking at her whilst talking.
> 
> It's totally inappropriate to make that call in her (or anyone else's)
> presence.
> ...


If only that's all thier doing, talking...The hell with waiting until Wed's, the next time you listen you might be hearing something your really don't want to be hearing(far worse)
One of them needs to go NOW!

the sexual tension between them could be cut with a chain saw its so damn thick.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

strugglinghusband said:


> If only that's all thier doing, talking...The hell with waiting until Wed's, the next time you listen you might be hearing something your really don't want to be hearing(far worse)
> One of them needs to go NOW!
> 
> the sexual tension between them could be cut with a chain saw its so damn thick.


You raise the point of why this has to wait till Wednesday. Things can escalate quickly. It's a big risk.



> she laughs and says "is that what you like to do


Makes me think that at that point in time OW doesn't yet know what he likes to do.

OW needs to go, but speaking as an employer myself, sometimes an employee doesn't get to make that call. OW already has had one supervisor state she's not fit for purpose. This is valuable. An appeal to the owners would probably work in your favour, SG as not many married couple's would like their business to enable affairs and break marriages. But it has to be handled carefully as your H is not blameless in this.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

azteca1986 said:


> You raise the point of why this has to wait till Wednesday. Things can escalate quickly. It's a big risk.
> 
> 
> *Makes me think that at that point in time OW doesn't yet know what he likes to do.*
> ...


Or she was touching him inappropriately while asking that question........

And I completely agree, this needs to be handled carefully. But handled with the employer nonetheless.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

The VAR recording is very bad, in my opinion. Very bad. Your H is lying to you big time. Tell him it's her or you. That's it. NC with her or he's out. Go to the employers and tell them your concerns. Don't give up your sources.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

On another note Ginger, What do you know about this OW- personally??? It needs to become very uncomfortable for her to carry on with your H. VERY.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> It's a devious way to talk dirty to her, especially if he's looking at her whilst talking.
> 
> It's totally inappropriate to make that call in her (or anyone else's)
> presence.
> ...


That is why I will not reveal my source, because I do think after she is off his crew one of them will try to get in touch with the other.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> You raise the point of why this has to wait till Wednesday. Things can escalate quickly. It's a big risk.
> 
> 
> Makes me think that at that point in time OW doesn't yet know what he likes to do.
> ...


We are not sure which would be the best way to go about speaking to the employers. We weren't sure if it would be best for me to call the wife or for him to talk to the husband of the business and tell him this women on his crew is coming between his wife and himself. But like you say he is not blameless but not sure how to tell them without making him look really bad.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

canttrustu said:


> On another note Ginger, What do you know about this OW- personally??? It needs to become very uncomfortable for her to carry on with your H. VERY.


I am still searching for information about her. I know she isn't the computer type, so there is no social things like facebook etc. to find out about her. 

I am planning on calling the employer they both worked with before and see if I can get some kind of information on her.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> We are not sure which would be the best way to go about speaking to the employers. We weren't sure if it would be best for me to call the wife or for him to talk to the husband of the business and tell him this women on his crew is coming between his wife and himself. But like you say he is not blameless but not sure how to tell them without making him look really bad.


Ginger, he has no say. This is your call. I say you go to the wife since she is your fb friend. Talk to her woman to woman not employee to wife. I'll bet she helps you.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> I am still searching for information about her. I know she isn't the computer type, so there is no social things like facebook etc. to find out about her.
> 
> I am planning on calling the employer they both worked with before and see if I can get some kind of information on her.


Spokeo.com


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

Well I guess once a liar always a liar. Upon questioning him about the deer antlers more, he now tell me he did cut them off for her. And he said he was going to tell me the truth when he got home. We are going to up the employer talk to tomorrow. We are thinking about driving down together and talk to them as a couple. She must be frustrated because when my husband was driving home talking to me on the phone her number came up because she was calling him while he was talking to me. I told him he can not talk to her and try to explain things to her, so I know she is pissed.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I would NOT trust your husband to go to the owner. You have a bit of a rapport with the woman; ask her if you two can get together for a coffee or something.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Well I guess once a liar always a liar. Upon questioning him about the deer antlers more, he now tell me he did cut them off for her. And he said he was going to tell me the truth when he got home. We are going to up the employer talk to tomorrow. We are thinking about driving down together and talk to them as a couple. She must be frustrated because when my husband was driving home talking to me on the phone her number came up because she was calling him while he was talking to me. I told him he can not talk to her and try to explain things to her, so I know she is pissed.


 So he went above and beyond his work schedule to drive out to wherever this dead deer was, WITH a chainsaw or whatever, took the time to do this, and then went back to work?


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

I am sure she was calling him about the conversation this morning with him telling her he wants to work things out with his wife and that his wife means more to him than her.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Well I guess once a liar always a liar. Upon questioning him about the deer antlers more, he now tell me he did cut them off for her. And he said he was going to tell me the truth when he got home. We are going to up the employer talk to tomorrow. We are thinking about driving down together and talk to them as a couple. She must be frustrated because when my husband was driving home talking to me on the phone her number came up because she was calling him while he was talking to me. I told him he can not talk to her and try to explain things to her, so I know she is pissed.


This tells you he doesnt get it! Watch yourself here Ginger. You are starting to let HIM make the decisions. I see alot of "we" are gonna. Obviously, he did talk to her today and thats why she felt comfortable enough to call him. Do you still have the VAR set up?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Not only talked, but RESCUED her.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> I am sure she was calling him about the conversation this morning with him telling her he wants to work things out with his wife and that his wife means more to him than her.


Dont be so sure this is how the conversation went. He's misled you here before with what he tells you he supposedly said to her. Yes, you heard what he said to her while the line was open and you were on the other end. BUT what you did not hear was the conversation once he hit 'end' on that phone call with you.


Also, you kicked him out AND he still even spoke to her??? Yeah, he is in the fog big time. She will continue to pull at him and he will continue to respond. YOU have to take the hard line. This "we" stuff- Its not gonna work. YOU talk to the employer. He writes a NC letter and YOU deliver it. Ask the employer to transfer her ASAP. Your H spent time with her taht he could have spent talking to YOU. That he should have spent talking to you given the circumstances. 

The deer antlers is a disaster. He should have had NOTHING to do with that. And had the conversation gone the way he said it went, she shouldnt have felt comfortableenough to ask the SAME day.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

turnera said:


> So he went above and beyond his work schedule to drive out to wherever this dead deer was, WITH a chainsaw or whatever, took the time to do this, and then went back to work?


The deer was lying there where they were working and she asked him how could you get the antlers off the deer and he told me he said to use a chain saw. But after questioning him he admitted that he cut them off for her. I told him she was just seeing what she could get you to do since you told her you didn't want to talk to her. And of course it worked and then he has to lie to me on top of it.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

turnera said:


> Not only talked, but RESCUED her.


I know I told him he was her knight in shining armor.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

canttrustu said:


> Ginger, he has no say. This is your call. I say you go to the wife since she is your fb friend. Talk to her woman to woman not employee to wife. I'll bet she helps you.


I agree with this. A woman to woman talk appears to be the best way to go. A married woman should be sympathetic to yours concerns (and won't want this type of woman round her husband either). Don't go too heavy on exactly what you know - you have to protect your VAR.

If you explain how OW is de-stabilising your marriage, hopefully the business woman in her will see that your husband is more valuable to the company and make a simple business decision.

If you get flak from H for approaching his employer, remind him you are doing what it takes to protect your marriage. He can give it a try too!

EDIT: Just saw the deer antler lie. When is H going to figure out his lies aren't helping


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

canttrustu said:


> This tells you he doesnt get it! Watch yourself here Ginger. You are starting to let HIM make the decisions. I see alot of "we" are gonna. Obviously, he did talk to her today and thats why she felt comfortable enough to call him. Do you still have the VAR set up?


I know I am beginning to see your point that I need to take the reigns back.

I was afraid to put it in today, because even though I told him someone was actually watching him. I think he thinks the person watching him actually put a bug in his truck. I am going to do one tomorrow and make sure to do it after she is out of there, because I know they will try to make contact and I want to hear what they have to say to each other.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

I agree with canttrustu's post #215

DO speak to the employer on your own. Don't tell her to transfer OW; a business owner doesn't like to be told how to run their business. When you relay your genuine, well-founded concerns, ask for her help. She'll know what to do, you just need to nudge her gently in the right direction.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Ginger, if you spend time reading on this site, you will realize, sadly, that you simply cannot trust what your H is telling you. You can't attack this problem together because that would require that the two of you are on the same page. He, however, has been lying to you and he continues to lie. You are not on the same page and won't be again until there is absolutely no more contact with this OW. And even then, you can't trust him. You will have to check and check again to make sure that NC is actually in place.

Talk to the female employer and tell her what has been happening. Don't tell her that this OW is 'after' your H. Tell her the truth - that the two of them are endangering your marriage while they work side by side every day.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> Talk to the female employer and tell her what has been happening. Don't tell her that this OW is 'after' your H. *Tell her the truth - that the two of them are endangering your marriage while they work side by side every day.*


Yep. That's perfect.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> I agree with canttrustu's post #215
> 
> DO speak to the employer on your own. Don't tell her to transfer OW; a business owner doesn't like to be told how to run their business. When you relay your genuine, well-founded concerns, ask for her help. She'll know what to do, you just need to nudge her gently in the right direction.


Good advice on how to talk to her.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

canttrustu said:


> Dont be so sure this is how the conversation went. He's misled you here before with what he tells you he supposedly said to her. Yes, you heard what he said to her while the line was open and you were on the other end. BUT what you did not hear was the conversation once he hit 'end' on that phone call with you.
> 
> 
> Also, you kicked him out AND he still even spoke to her??? Yeah, he is in the fog big time. She will continue to pull at him and he will continue to respond. YOU have to take the hard line. This "we" stuff- Its not gonna work. YOU talk to the employer. He writes a NC letter and YOU deliver it. Ask the employer to transfer her ASAP. Your H spent time with her taht he could have spent talking to YOU. That he should have spent talking to you given the circumstances.
> ...


You are so right about this!


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> Ginger, if you spend time reading on this site, you will realize, sadly, that you simply cannot trust what your H is telling you. You can't attack this problem together because that would require that the two of you are on the same page. He, however, has been lying to you and he continues to lie. You are not on the same page and won't be again until there is absolutely no more contact with this OW. And even then, you can't trust him. You will have to check and check again to make sure that NC is actually in place.
> 
> Talk to the female employer and tell her what has been happening. Don't tell her that this OW is 'after' your H. Tell her the truth - that the two of them are endangering your marriage while they work side by side every day.


I like the way you put that also!


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## thesunwillcomeout (Jun 25, 2012)

Ginger, I'm not so sure you should tell your husband before you go talk to the co-owner/owner's wife. As you put it, you need to take back the reigns. Your husband will likely still try to micromanage this. If the two of you go together, I'm not sure how he would do it, but he would likely try to minimize and falling into natural old patterns, you would likely not assert yourself with him taking the lead. No, good advice here, go solo, to the wife first. Be honest with her. Ask her how well she knows the employee herself. If she has any experience with her, ask her if she's observed anything. (Always good to let the leader do some of the thinking (-: -- Ask her how she thinks best to handle it. And then after you speak with her, let her know that you've discussed this with your husband, that he will know about your conversation so you look (and are) really above board. This way you establish yourself as looking out for the best interest of the company and the "good character" / "honest image" they'd like to portray -- or whatever you think best. Make it in the best interest of the company -- because it is, and of course for your marriage.

As a side note -- Antlers sucks. She has him under her thumb. He can't break away yet. He's torn. Will be til she's gone. It's true. (And sadly, spoken from experience. My husband recently told me it's taken him a year to get over the emotional part of his A).

And the truck conversations? Very, very disturbing. I will say -- her asking him if that's what he likes may imply that it was on the edge of going PA, or, sadly, maybe it has gone PA and it was stupid, "playful" banter that folk in their position think is really, really, really coy and witty at the time. (gag.)

You go get'em tiger. You're doing the right thing.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Don't go on and on when you talk to the employer. Be concise, to the point, and offer real bang for the buck. Tell her about the kisses on the lips and the 'darlings' and 'loves'. Tell her that you feel that the work environment is endangering your marriage and that it simply cannot continue.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

How can she protect the secret of the VAR when she talks to the employer or employer's wife? She may be bluntly asked "How do you know this is going on?" IMHO, she shouldn't lie and instead state she would rather not answer.

Also, if he is suspicious he is being bugged, should she stop that for now?

Also, I see no value in permitting husband to go to the discussion with the employer. If the employer and wife are decent folks, then they will ask all the questions they need to grasp just what is going on, and most importantly hear the honesty of SGs hurt in her responses. If present, H will only have two choices: incriminate himself and betray his fantasy girl, or lie to employer and wife. I fear he will choose the low road. Of course, he will deserve the consequences of that, but it won't make SG's life any easier and will potentially put doubt in employer and wife about who is telling the truth. H's presence can only make the conversation more difficult and awkward, and add noise to an otherwise heart to heart conversation.

Also also, assuming the employer and employer's wife do see the seriousness of the matter, yet don't instantly fire them both, would it be good to ask the big boss to scare H straight, so to speak? Put him on notice to shape up, NC, or he is fired?

And, how can SG guard her VAR recordings? I hope SG keeps them somewhere safe.

IMHO, husband and his fantasy girl should both be caught off guard, and have no idea the bosses are being clued in. If they no it is coming, H will tell the b***** (sorry), and she will manipulate him to sabotage the potentially very fruitful conversation with employer and employer's wife.

SG and all, sorry to butt in. I am no expert here. Just rooting for SG. Time is precious, please don't let my questions derail the thread. Don't anyone feel the need to respond, unless you think a question of mine is relevant.

I also see folks here have vast experience with this sort of thing in general, but is speaking to employer a rare sort of thing or commonly recommended?

Keep finding strength SG.  You're fighting the good fight.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

PieceOfSky-

Exposing to the employer is usually recommended. It puts official pressure on to end the A, as well as shines the light on it for other employees. Also, Ginger has plenty of evidence without blowing her cover re the VAR. In my opinion, she should keep the VAR option very much to herself, but continue to let the WH believe that he is being watched. This may well be a strong inducement for him to behave. A little paranoia can go a long way.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

How's it going today Ginger?


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> Also, Ginger has plenty of evidence without blowing her cover re the VAR. In my opinion, she should keep the VAR option very much to herself


In case I left the wrong impression, I 100% agree she should keep the VAR her own secret, and use it whenever she safely can. I was just asking how best to prepare one's mind to guard against letting its existence slip out during the upcoming conversation(s).


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> In case I left the wrong impression, I 100% agree she should keep the VAR her own secret, and use it whenever she safely can. I was just asking how best to prepare one's mind to guard against letting its existence slip out during the upcoming conversation(s).


Answer: VERY carefully. VERY. If she exposes herself now, she could lose valuable info going forward. Right now, its the only way to know if he's still talking to her in his truck. Even after dday he is continuing to put HER ahead of his wife. Its important for Ginger to know where she stand and how deep her husband is in this and it will also help her in knowing if its a PA or an EA/PA. Unfortunately, a cheater's word cannot be relied upon during an affair and for some time following the affair. A VAR is very useful in continuing to verify NC since cheaters often speak to each other in their cars.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

Very good advice everyone. I will keep my VAR a secret at all cost. Just to update, not sure where I left off yesterday. After I found out H helped her with the antlers and lied about it, I totally lost it and screamed at him in the phone towards the end of his day. He told me he was sorry but he thought I would have been mad if he told me he actually cut them off. Duh! So he tells me when he gets back to the shop he will not take either of them back to their trucks, so as not to be left by himself with her in the truck. When he gets back he tells them both to get out at the building. After the other guy walks away she sticks her head in the truck and said "well can you take me back to my truck, so I can get my antlers and a big rock out of the back of the work truck?" He says "no he is not going to do that." She gets mad and is like "really? Well I guess I will have to get them tomorrow morning." She doesn't even say goodbye. Then on the way home he is talking to me and another call comes in and it was her, trying to call him before he gets home. He doesn't answer it and does tell me about it. So I know she is wanting answers. Today I did use a VAR and I also told my husband I wanted him to call me before he gets her in the truck and put the live phone in his pocket so I can hear what is going on. She gets in and he said "get your stuff out of the back of the truck please." He doesn't offer to help her and she gets it out and said nothing to him. He called me at lunch and said she must be mad because she hasn't talked to him and will not even look at him. I told him she is going to try to get you alone and get answers from him and he better be ready. I know she is mad now.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

What have you decided about speaking to his employer??? He cannot continue to work with her, speaking or not she IS a threat to your marriage, I promise you that.

Also, since he KNEW you'd be upset about him cutting off the antlers then WHY did he do it? I mean I know why, but what was his 'explaination'? Sounds like a case of he'd rather ask forgiveness than permission. Thats a really bad attitude for a guy who was just thrown out of his house, dont you think???


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> What have you decided about speaking to his employer??? He cannot continue to work with her, speaking or not she IS a threat to your marriage, I promise you that.
> 
> Also, since he KNEW you'd be upset about him cutting off the antlers then WHY did he do it? I mean I know why, but what was his 'explaination'? Sounds like a case of he'd rather ask forgiveness than permission. *Thats a really bad attitude for a guy who was just thrown out of his house, dont you think?*??


He should be treating her like a leper, stay away at all cost.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

Okay, I got my thoughts all organized on paper and called the boss's wife. I didn't ask for the OW to be transferred and I was short and concise. She listened and then asked me would I like to see her transferred off his crew. I said I would LOVE to see her off his crew.She thanked me for calling and said she will talk to her husband and then talk to my H and that she would call me and let me know what is going on. So glad I called her and so glad everyone gave me such good advice. Now to wait and see what happens. The OW is still not talking to my husband at work. And I am still using a VAR just to make sure he is listening. He lied one too many times for me to believe him with his word. Wonder how long it will take to actually believe everything he tells me?


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

canttrustu said:


> Answer: VERY carefully. VERY. If she exposes herself now, she could lose valuable info going forward. Right now, its the only way to know if he's still talking to her in his truck. Even after dday he is continuing to put HER ahead of his wife. Its important for Ginger to know where she stand and how deep her husband is in this and it will also help her in knowing if its a PA or an EA/PA. Unfortunately, a cheater's word cannot be relied upon during an affair and for some time following the affair. A VAR is very useful in continuing to verify NC since cheaters often speak to each other in their cars.


I am totally hoping to not have to reveal my source. I can see how the VAR will be needed even after she is transferred. The fact that she is still upset about my H telling her his marriage and wife were more important than her, tells me that she isn't the type to let things go without a struggle.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> I am totally hoping to not have to reveal my source. I can see how the VAR will be needed even after she is transferred. The fact that she is still upset about my H telling her his marriage and wife were more important than her, tells me that she isn't the type to let things go without a struggle.


Good girl. Also realize that this will be difficult for your H to give up. This is like an addiction. It helps pass an otherwise very boring day. He's come to rely on her to boost his ego. This is a very dangerous thing for a married man. So please realize that her reaching toward him is not the ONLY danger here...

Good job calling the employers wife. Dont buckle Ginger. Stay strong. Show your H a side of you he didnt know existed. If you are strong, solid and steadfast you will have hope of being attractive to your H. If you are weak she will be the more attractive option. 

Hang in there Ginger. How did last night go? Did you get anything on the VAR yesterday?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I can imagine that this is a big ego thing to her. She's the dish with the blossoming intimacy with your H. To her, you're the wifey at home who needs to be managed and kept in the dark and on the fringes. It's an intimate conspiracy the two of them have had going. For her, she's in and you're out. Your H has been letting this happen and has been enjoying it, so she doesn't now want to suddenly be the one who is on the outside.

She really needs to be put in her rightful place. Your H needs to follow through with this job by going complete NC.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Okay, I got my thoughts all organized on paper and called the boss's wife. I didn't ask for the OW to be transferred and I was short and concise. She listened and then asked me would I like to see her transferred off his crew. I said I would LOVE to see her off his crew.She thanked me for calling and said she will talk to her husband and then talk to my H and that she would call me and let me know what is going on. So glad I called her and so glad everyone gave me such good advice. Now to wait and see what happens. The OW is still not talking to my husband at work. And I am still using a VAR just to make sure he is listening. He lied one too many times for me to believe him with his word. Wonder how long it will take to actually believe everything he tells me?


Awesome ginger...just AWESOME
Real men don't want a woman that wont stand up for them selves and are weak, you are proving that you are a strong woman with boundaries she will not allow to be crossed..


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

canttrustu said:


> Good girl. Also realize that this will be difficult for your H to give up. This is like an addiction. It helps pass an otherwise very boring day. He's come to rely on her to boost his ego. This is a very dangerous thing for a married man. So please realize that her reaching toward him is not the ONLY danger here...
> 
> Good job calling the employers wife. Dont buckle Ginger. Stay strong. Show your H a side of you he didnt know existed. If you are strong, solid and steadfast you will have hope of being attractive to your H. If you are weak she will be the more attractive option.
> 
> Hang in there Ginger. How did last night go? Did you get anything on the VAR yesterday?


I do feel this is far from finished. But I do feel like I crossed one bridge by calling the boss's wife. My H must be telling the truth about not talking to each other yesterday. I stayed up really late listening to the VAR just to make sure, and I do not hear her voice at all on the recording.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Okay, I got my thoughts all organized on paper and called the boss's wife. I didn't ask for the OW to be transferred and I was short and concise. She listened and then asked me would I like to see her transferred off his crew. I said I would LOVE to see her off his crew.She thanked me for calling and said she will talk to her husband and then talk to my H and that she would call me and let me know what is going on.


Brilliantly handled. Well done.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> I do feel this is far from finished. But I do feel like I crossed one bridge by calling the boss's wife. My H must be telling the truth about not talking to each other yesterday. I stayed up really late listening to the VAR just to make sure, and I do not hear her voice at all on the recording.


Just be sure he hasnt found and erased it. Put it in a different place just to be sure....


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Sweet Ginger said:


> *I do feel this is far from finished. *But I do feel like I crossed one bridge by calling the boss's wife. My H must be telling the truth about not talking to each other yesterday. I stayed up really late listening to the VAR just to make sure, and I do not hear her voice at all on the recording.


You're right there, you've got a good head on your shoulders.

It's easy to put too much focus on OW, as she's the interloper in your marriage. But the way EA's function is by having little secrets that grow into bigger ones which result in making you the outsider. I'm pretty confident the boss's wife will transfer OW. And now their affair will have a couple of extra eyes on them, if it is to continue. Guaranteed OW'll start fishing with seemingly innocuous chit chat. 

Where's your husband now (mentally). He seemed rightly shaken up when you packed his bags and sent him to his friend's place. But his poor understanding of boundaries is what got your marriage to this precarious position in the first place.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Great job.

However, be prepared for righteous indignation when he is called into his boss' office and talked to. Suddenly it will all be YOUR fault.

When that happens, have the empty suitcase sitting by the front door. Don't say anything but this, while pointing to the suitcase: "If you aren't happy with me, you are welcome to leave."


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Great job with the employer. Remember that he could well be talking to her outside of his truck. The fact that he is suspicious that he's being watched may be a good check on him in all cases, but don't assume that he's not talking to her at all. At the very least, you've stopped the intimate connection inside the truck. The car/truck environment is a favorite private place for people who cheat.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

Okay after I talked to the boss's wife, she talked to her husband. About 20 minutes ago the boss just called me. He wanted me to explain some of the things that were going on and he is going to visit their job site tomorrow morning to talk with both of them. He said it will be hard to transfer her since the other site she worked at, the foreman there said he didn't want her back. The boss said how would I feel if all inappropriateness stopped, would I be okay with them working together. I said I am worried about feelings being involved and it going back to where it was before. He said he hates to see one of them loose their job, but if need be one of them might have to go. I feel I need to coach my H on what he needs to say to get her removed. Because right now he said it is uncomfortable working with her, especially since she is giving him the cold shoulder.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Okay after I talked to the boss's wife, she talked to her husband. About 20 minutes ago the boss just called me. He wanted me to explain some of the things that were going on and he is going to visit their job site tomorrow morning to talk with both of them. He said it will be hard to transfer her since the other site she worked at, the foreman there said he didn't want her back. The boss said how would I feel if all inappropriateness stopped, would I be okay with them working together. I said I am worried about feelings being involved and it going back to where it was before. He said he hates to see one of them loose their job, but if need be one of them might have to go. I feel I need to coach my H on what he needs to say to get her removed. Because right now he said it is uncomfortable working with her, especially since she is giving him the cold shoulder.


This is proof that the employer doesnt understand EA's. Not his fault as most people dont. BUt Ginger, under NO circumstances can your H and OW continue working together. NONE. This will restart. She will break him down. Or he will just cave on his own. This will not work. I dont understand frankly why the employer would keep her knowing that she is trouble everywhere she goes????? I'd bet you 10 to 1 the other foreman had a thing with her too. Thats why he's so dead set. I'd bet my lunch on it.

And that boss cant GUARANTEE that the inappropriatness will stop. He simply cant. And even if he could, that doesnt stop the feelings from circulating constantly bc they are in each others sights 10 hrs a day. Trust me on this one....


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I'm on the fence here about whether you should talk to your H at all about this OR whether you should use it to drive a good, strong wedge between him and the OW. If he's busy saving his own a*s, then that might be very good.

You need to hold your ground, though, Ginger. This has gone way too far already with the kissing and 'I love you's' and intimacy just with the two of them. They need to be off the same team. Staying on the team, but 'stopping' the inappropriate behavior does not work. Does not work.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

In general, Ginger, I hope you're feeling confident enough now to tell him, "If she's anywhere near you, ever, we are done. Her or me. I get information about this, so you are forewarned."


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

canttrustu said:


> This is proof that the employer doesnt understand EA's. Not his fault as most people dont. BUt Ginger, under NO circumstances can your H and OW continue working together. NONE. This will restart. She will break him down. Or he will just cave on his own. This will not work. I dont understand frankly why the employer would keep her knowing that she is trouble everywhere she goes????? I'd bet you 10 to 1 the other foreman had a thing with her too. Thats why he's so dead set. I'd bet my lunch on it.
> 
> And that boss cant GUARANTEE that the inappropriatness will stop. He simply cant. And even if he could, that doesnt stop the feelings from circulating constantly bc they are in each others sights 10 hrs a day. Trust me on this one....


You can probably keep your lunch. When she first came to work there and he was talking to my H about her, he said she was hot! Now they are like oil and water. Not sure what my H should say to convince the boss that it would be better to get rid of her. I thought about my H calling the boss tonight to talk to him.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> In general, Ginger, I hope you're feeling confident enough now to tell him, "If she's anywhere near you, ever, we are done. Her or me. I get information about this, so you are forewarned."


I do like the sound of saying that to him.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> You can probably keep your lunch. When she first came to work there and he was talking to my H about her, he said she was hot! Now they are like oil and water. Not sure what my H should say to convince the boss that it would be better to get rid of her. I thought about my H calling the boss tonight to talk to him.


He may have to tell the guy up front and honest that its gonna cost him his marriage......you play you pay. Those are the facts. As I said, Ive seen this kind of *woman* before. She's a predator. I was pretty sure she'd had an affair with the prior foreman too. So.... Yeah. Your husband has a call to make at this point, you or her. He needs to make it ASAP. And stop trying to save his pride at work.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> I do like the sound of saying that to him.


Dont confuse that, I dont think Alte is saying to let her stay as long as she stays away.....Not at all. She is saying she goes or he does. Thats it.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

There's one obvious positive in your latest post is that the other foreman refused to have OW back on his team. If it comes down to it, it would seem she will be the one to go.

But...

*The Boss' dilema
*He's not about to deprive one person of their livelihood for actions that both parties are equally culpable. Your H is the one who took the vows, etc. The boss's motivation/goal is to be fair. You can't blame him for not putting your marriage first if your H is unable to. 

Therefore I'm not sure that any amount of coaching of H, even if he follows through will get to the goal of having the OW removed. 

The inescapable fact is that this problem would go away if your H would only shut this down. I believe in only worrying and working on things that are in your control. The OW and the Boss are not the main problem. Your H and his boundaries are.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Look, she lied on her resume'. That is fireable. End of story. They are tree trimmers, she doesnt climb. Gone. That simple. IF the guy makes is harder that that its bc he doesnt want to fire her for whatever reason. Your H needs to make it clear that she doesnt climb.......


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> Dont confuse that, I dont think Alte is saying to let her stay as long as she stays away.....Not at all. She is saying she goes or he does. Thats it.


Exactly, CTU. She has to go or he does. An absolute line in the sand for the marriage.

Again, this has gone way too far already. Your H has to choose. If he's in too deep and can't go NC, then make him pack his bags again.

People are trying hard to manage you right now. From all sides, probably from the employers' side as well at this point. Don't cave! This is your life. You are not living it for them. There are compromises to be made in life but this is not one of those times.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I agree. She is NOT DOING HER JOB. Not only that, SHE is the common denominator for both work sites that DON'T WANT HER. IIWY, I would call the wife back and tell her what her H said and that you now fear your H will lose his job, when it is clearly a case of a predatory woman. Ask her to talk to her husband tonight.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Sweet Ginger said:


> I feel I need to coach my H on what he needs to say to get her removed.


He better realize SOON that it is going be his job or hers, and that that decision is not in your hands, but his employer's. His instinct for self-protection better kick in, and cause him to stop worrying so much about this manipulative woman's feelings.

Also, the employer weigh the potential this woman will claim sexual harassment if she is fired, if your husband is in anyway thought of as her superior in the company. If he truly did not harass her, and this was all mutual or if she initiated, then I hope he has the proof for or at least the trust of the manager. Once this woman feels scorned, she is darn sure not going to worry about screwing your husband over, whether he deserves it or not.

One thing in his favor is her track record in this company. I hope the employer uses this new incident as an opportunity to finally get rid of her.

SG, that's all just my opinion, and I'm not as experienced with these matters as many other folks here. To be clear, I'm *not* saying there is anything you can act on there (like telling your husband about his precarious position -- which might reveal more about your talk with employer than you'd like???). But, maybe one of the smarter folks her, including you, might give that some thought.

Btw, SG, I admire your courage to take action, and your willingness to face facts and get help. People get through these sorts of things and end up in a better place. It seems like you are one of those that will. Good luck.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

canttrustu said:


> Look, she lied on her resume'. That is fireable. End of story. They are tree trimmers, she doesnt climb. Gone. That simple. IF the guy makes is harder that that its bc he doesnt want to fire her for whatever reason. Your H needs to make it clear that she doesnt climb.......


The Boss might think : "But you (H) didn't think to bring this to my notice till you got yourself in trouble...". Ratting on OW will only incriminate H at this point.

I wouldn't suggest going back to the Boss's wife. He will feel manipulated. If you're going to speak with them again, it's far better to speak to them both. 

To be clear, I'm not for a minute advocating inaction. I'm just trying to think of the best course to get SG her most favourable outcome. I know I've not given you advice as to a solution SG, but it's just as important to be aware of possible mis-steps.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

canttrustu said:


> I dont understand frankly why the employer would keep her knowing that she is trouble everywhere she goes?????


I don't think he plans to keep her. My hunch is employer said what he said (Essentially: "You realize separating them means one get's fired, right? And you're OK with that?") in an attempt to measure how truly serious SG feels this is.

I'm thankful SG understands the seriousness, and did not sugar coat it.

Just a hunch, though.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

azteca1986 said:


> The Boss might think : "But you (H) didn't think to bring this to my notice till you got yourself in trouble...". Ratting on OW will only incriminate H at this point.
> 
> I wouldn't suggest going back to the Boss's wife. He will feel manipulated. If you're going to speak with them again, it's far better to speak to them both.
> 
> To be clear, I'm not for a minute advocating inaction. I'm just trying to think of the best course to get SG her most favourable outcome. I know I've not given you advice as to a solution SG, but it's just as important to be aware of possible mis-steps.


I was more saying as an excuse the employer could give as opposed to firing her for the A. Truth be told the employer's wife will likely say "get rid of her" like most wive's would in her position. I was merely offering an 'excuse' for the firing.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

canttrustu said:


> I was more saying as an excuse the employer could give as opposed to firing her for the A. Truth be told the employer's wife will likely say "get rid of her" like most wive's would in her position. I was merely offering an 'excuse' for the firing.


Apologies if I was abrupt. We're all on the same side after all 

I don't think the boss is in a firing mood. OW would have him for discrimination, or somesuch.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

The most realistic best case sceanrio is:

Boss talks to them both and tells them that he doesn't want them to continue with their inappropriate behaviour at work. If it does, one or both of them will be out. Even if the boss feels OW is not a competent worker, he won't risk using the situation as a catalyst for dismissal without risking a sexual discrimination lawsuit.

It's inconceivable that either of them won't publicly comply and lose their jobs.

Possible outcomes:
1. H realises the gravity of the situation. Both job and marriage are on the line.
2. H & OW are now 'star crossed lovers' (puke) and this brings them together. And they go underground.
3. H is annoyed that SG talked to the bosses. The defence is that SG was protecting the marriage due to his actions.
4. H resigns - Good for the marriage in the short term. Awful for household income and might cause resentment if a new job isn't quickly forthcoming.

None of the above are ideal, as there's no clean break from OW. Thoughts anyone?

SG, where is H's head at?


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> The most realistic best case sceanrio is:
> 
> Boss talks to them both and tells them that he doesn't want them to continue with their inappropriate behaviour at work. If it does, one or both of them will be out. Even if the boss feels OW is not a competent worker, he won't risk using the situation as a catalyst for dismissal without risking a sexual discrimination lawsuit.
> 
> ...


I asked my H what he is going to say tomorrow, and he said not to worry that he would not throw me under the bus. I asked if she does her jaw drop and says your wife is paranoid and too jealous that nothing was going on. He said he would say yes something inappropriate was going on. I asked if the boss asks him if he could work with her as long as nothing inappropriate was going on, what would he say. He said he would say it would be extremely uncomfortable. And I asked what if the boss ask why would it be? He said he would say that he didn't think he could work with her and not have it end up back to where is was before. Not sure if he should say these things or not????


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Ginger - 

The boss has his problems and you have yours.

Yours is that if your H stays on a crew with this OW you will get a divorce. This is what you should be saying. Whether you want it or not. You have to be tough.

You tell your H that he accomplishes NC with this woman or he packs his bags. He must tell his boss that his W will divorce him if he stays on a crew with her. He has already kissed her, passed inappropriate texts and calls back and forth. Who knows how far it has gone?

His psychology, your psychology, the OW's putrid psychology? Irrelevant. NC. That's it.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Sweet Ginger said:


> He said he would say that he didn't think he could work with her and not have it end up back to where is was before.


This is a terrible response if that's his true feelings, instead of a badly thought out one.

I agree with alte Dame "He must tell his boss that his W will divorce him if he stays on a crew with her."

The boss will have to make a business decision:
Losing H vs Moving OW back to the other team, where she's not wanted and easing her out later

Good luck SG


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

azteca1986 said:


> *This is a terrible response if that's his true feelings, instead of a badly thought out one.*
> I agree with alte Dame "He must tell his boss that his W will divorce him if he stays on a crew with her."
> 
> The boss will have to make a business decision:
> ...


As terrible as it may be its likely the first truthful thing he's said to her in a very long time.

Yes. He tells the boss she has to go or he does.

Stay strong Ginger. Youre getting there. Keep your head on and keep pushing.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Agree. Either she is gone, he quits, or he loses you.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> I asked my H what he is going to say tomorrow, and he said not to worry that he would not throw me under the bus. I asked if she does her jaw drop and says your wife is paranoid and too jealous that nothing was going on. He said he would say yes something inappropriate was going on. I asked if the boss asks him if he could work with her as long as nothing inappropriate was going on, what would he say. He said he would say it would be extremely uncomfortable. And I asked what if the boss ask why would it be? He said he would say that he didn't think he could work with her and not have it end up back to where is was before. Not sure if he should say these things or not????



This is a TERRIBLE response! He is not asserting his need to save his marriage! This is wishy washy at best, and proves that his feelings for her are still there!


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Sweet Ginger said:


> I asked if the boss asks him if he could work with her as long as nothing inappropriate was going on, what would he say. He said he would say it would be extremely uncomfortable. And I asked what if the boss ask why would it be? He said he would say that he didn't think he could work with her and not have it end up back to where is was before.


To those who think his answer is terrible, please consider this:

1) It is true. That's why we all are advocating NC.

2) He did not say it would happen again because she is his soulmate and can't live with out her. That could be the reason, or it could be that he has wised up and sees that improper boundaries bring with them risk. Maybe he sees that as a flaw in himself. Or maybe he sees that's the way most of is are made. Or, maybe he doesn't have a clue but he's picked up a vibe that that is what his wife wants him to say. Or, that he fears this manipulative girl with the antler connection; the deer didnt see it coming and he's afraid he is next. Who knows? I don't think we do.

That said, however, I'd agree it would be more effective to state "I'd be uncomfortable because I am certain my wife will not stand for it and file for divorce.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

Well I sent my husband off this morning with a lot of worries in my mind. He is going to call me when he has to pick HER up in the little truck and take her to their area on the lot and he will have his phone in his pocket, so I can hear whether or not she is talking to him today or if today will be the day she tries to start being friendly with him. I also used my VAR, but don't know if I will hear the conversation with the boss, it depends of course on the location they choose to meet. He said he would call me after the meeting.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Try and keep yourself occupied, else you'll worry yourself sick (easier said than done, I know)


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Well I sent my husband off this morning with a lot of worries in my mind. He is going to call me when he has to pick HER up in the little truck and take her to their area on the lot and he will have his phone in his pocket, so I can hear whether or not she is talking to him today or if today will be the day she tries to start being friendly with him. I also used my VAR, but don't know if I will hear the conversation with the boss, it depends of course on the location they choose to meet. He said he would call me after the meeting.


Hang in there Ginger. Ive been where you are-basically sending your H back to the lair with the cougar. Hoping with all you have that he has come around enough to realize this is it. THIS is a do or die situation. My H, like most this early on, thought he could just cool me down and carry forward. It took getting complete NC and mos away from her to see the damage he'd inflicted on both me and our marriage. So what Im saying is that he likely doesnt have any introspection right now. he is just trying to calm the waves. Hold him to the fire. YOU are the only one thinking rationally, you have to do it for the both of you right now as he is incapable.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

canttrustu said:


> Hold him to the fire. YOU are the only one thinking rationally, you have to do it for the both of you right now as he is incapable.


Sometimes I find myself wishing this TAM site would let me add a dozen "likes" to a single post.


Btw, when I've done what i could do of what needed to be done, and am waiting for the outcome, I cope by telling myself a line from a song: No matter what happens, nothing's ever going to be the same. Either that, or I take a nap. Though, I could see keeping busy might work too.


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## thesunwillcomeout (Jun 25, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> You can probably keep your lunch. When she first came to work there and he was talking to my H about her, he said she was hot! Now they are like oil and water. Not sure what my H should say to convince the boss that it would be better to get rid of her. I thought about my H calling the boss tonight to talk to him.


It's likely she's played up the big boss too. That's what my husband's OW did at work....she had all the key men thinking she was fantastic and awesome and gushing over her. She plays the tramp card well. They get so blind by the sex appeal they can't see her (them) for who she really is. Funny thing is, with the women in the office, she was the fodder for a LOT of gossip and only a couple of women really "hung" with her. Her prey, of course were (may still be -- haven't confirmed lately) men, even though she no longer works in the office.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

Well here is how it went down yesterday. When the boss came to talk to them he wasn't alone, he brought his wife with him. This was a positive thing. My H was asked if he could work with her on his crew, and he said it would be extremely uncomfortable. Then he explained how he promised his wife he would not talk to her socially and explained how they started out as friends and that yes they did cross several lines. He told them that they kissed on the lips hello and goodbye, and when he said that, the wife said if I were your wife I would have killed you. He said it lasted less than 10 minutes. Then they talked to her and he didn't know what was said. But at the end before the bosses left they asked OW if she was able to finish out the day there and she said yes. She wouldn't look at him or talk to him all day. The boss called him later in the afternoon and told him that she is being transferred and that she would have a choice of three different locations, all of which are going to be a much longer drive for her. (awe, too bad for her). I told him she will try to talk and ask questions when they end their day. And sure enough she came to him and asked him to come clean. She said the bosses acted like it was all her fault. And he told her when he exactly said about promising me, and that it was inappropriate and that he didn't want he working on his crew. She said "well you drug me through the mud, so you for sure can expect me to do the same to you" and then she stalked off to her truck. So not sure if she will be there today or if it will be official on Monday.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Well that's great outcome from where I'm sitting. Happy for you!

The bosses handled that as best as could be hoped for (with a gentle nudge from yourself, I think). Be thankful that they were marriage friendly.

She said "well you drug me through the mud, so you for sure can expect me to do the same to you" 

Sounds like the affair fog has lifted. Don't waste your time worrying about her threat. You'll deal with it together if anything actually materialises. What it does do is give your H extra motivation, if needed, that he goes completely NC with her. Any further contact is likely to harmful - False accusations, etc. Paint him a picture if he still doesn't get it.

So, successful mission Sweet Ginger. 

Next step: Making sure this doesn't happen again. Your husband has a lot of work to do.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

If you don't mind me asking, how are you feeling after all that?


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Well here is how it went down yesterday. When the boss came to talk to them he wasn't alone, he brought his wife with him. This was a positive thing. My H was asked if he could work with her on his crew, and he said it would be extremely uncomfortable. Then he explained how he promised his wife he would not talk to her socially and explained how they started out as friends and that yes they did cross several lines. He told them that they kissed on the lips hello and goodbye, and when he said that, the wife said if I were your wife I would have killed you. He said it lasted less than 10 minutes. Then they talked to her and he didn't know what was said. But at the end before the bosses left they asked OW if she was able to finish out the day there and she said yes. She wouldn't look at him or talk to him all day. The boss called him later in the afternoon and told him that she is being transferred and that she would have a choice of three different locations, all of which are going to be a much longer drive for her. (awe, too bad for her). I told him she will try to talk and ask questions when they end their day. And sure enough she came to him and asked him to come clean. She said the bosses acted like it was all her fault. And he told her when he exactly said about promising me, and that it was inappropriate and that he didn't want he working on his crew. *She said "well you drug me through the mud, so you for sure can expect me to do the same to you" and then she stalked off to her truck.* So not sure if she will be there today or if it will be official on Monday.


I'm guessing that she's going to be telling anyone that'll listen to her about how your husband wronged her.

Whether what she says will be the truth, lies, or somewhere in between will remain to be seen. Be prepared.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Yep let the her cry all she wants, to bad for her and to bad for your husband, the only victim here ginger is YOU, they will have to deal with the fallout and consequences, guess they should have thought about that before hand.

Now ginger comes more work, do not rug sweep this and think all is ok now, lots of work still to do, you came this far be willing to go farther, you have it in to continue.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

strugglinghusband said:


> Now ginger comes more work, do not rug sweep this and think all is ok now, lots of work still to do, you came this far be willing to go farther, you have it in to continue.


I can say first hand that rug sweeping will be tempting -- this has had to have been exhausting to you. And I can say first hand rug sweeping will not work. 

And I am only starting to realize that although my wife is the one that had the EA, and is the one that committed, say, the moral offenses (lying, and probably things i don't want to know), it was my behaviors beforehand had made that easier to do. I am pissed to this day she never woman-upped since the big multi-faceted reveal and done any significant work to fix herself. But, I'm only now realizing that I have needed to be doing more with my own issues myself.

Anyways, it warms my heart that you've persevered through this and took strong action to defend your needs. I think you'll continue to do what needs to be done.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

This is great news. Ginger, you still must confirm for a while that NC is being continued. Dont take his word for it. Sorry but you just cant yet. And as everyone else has stated, no rugsweeping. This must be dealt with between you and your H openly. He cant say "look you wanted her gone, she's gone so get over it" or anything like that. NO. He must deal with the fallout of your emotions and lack of trust. He must show remorse and be transparent. Make sure you read some reconciliation stickies and threads. Youve come a long way and you have a long way to go. First and foremost ensuring NC for the time being. She will likely trying to inch her way back or he will. Keep your eyes open. 

Secondly, now you know your h is capable of this. Its something that needs to be addressed. To know why he allowed it. What within him made him loosen his boundaries so much that he violated his vows to such an extent? 

COngrats Ginger. But stay here, there's still lots of work ahead.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

PieceOfSky said:


> And I am only starting to realize that although my wife is the one that had the EA, and is the one that committed, say, the moral offenses (lying, and probably things i don't want to know), it was my behaviors beforehand had made that easier to do. I am pissed to this day she never woman-upped since the big multi-faceted reveal and done any significant work to fix herself. But, I'm only now realizing that I have needed to be doing more with my own issues myself.


This is very important. You in no way CAUSED him to do this, but if you want a strong marriage moving forward, you MUST take a hard look at what you both come home to. Have you read His Needs Her Needs? Now is an excellent time to read it. Together. It will explain everything.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> And I am only starting to realize that although my wife is the one that had the EA, and is the one that committed, say, the moral offenses (lying, and probably things i don't want to know), it was my behaviors beforehand had made that easier to do. <snip> But, I'm only now realizing that I have needed to be doing more with my own issues myself.


There's no harm at all in a bit of introspection. It's healthy for Sweet Ginger to if things could be better with her marriage. But here's the rub - things can _always_ be better in a marriage. No matter how good, there will always be room for improvement. Not every affair needs to be proceeded by 'problems'.

The main problem in this situation was H's lack of boundaries. Maybe he wasn't aware what they are; that they apply to both parties. He forgot what it means to be a husband, somehow convincing himself that it was okay for a married man to kiss anyone but his wife on the lips. It's an obvious line that can't be crossed. It matters not if OW or the next potential OW is friendly, does it with everyone, etc, etc. H as to confront his own self-deceptions which led him to jeopardise his marriage. 

You get hit on at work, wherever. It's a fact of life. When you get married it's your responsibility to recognise when friendly becomes flirty and then make a choice. Every time it happens. It's easy to either shut things down or steer conversations to safer waters without making things awkward.

One useful boundary my wife and I have is that we never discuss our marriage problems with OS friends. In fact, we've mutually agreed on the people who we would turn to if the need arises.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

True, but now that she's had this scare, it's a perfect time to take a look at the marriage and see if it's time for a tune-up. Harley suggests spending 15 hours a week together in non-kid/housework/work activities, to keep the love flowing. Most people get nowhere near that, and their lives dull away to a bare existence. We can have so much more than that, if we make the effort.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

I agree turnera.

There's nothing but good from working toward a happier healthier marriage together. Your advice is spot on.

I just don't want the spotlight to come off H till he really _gets_ what he was doing. And then learns how to avoid it in the future.

Last thing we want is him to think "Phew! Glad that's dealt with... what's for dinner?"


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

No. She needs a list of boundaries.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> Well that's great outcome from where I'm sitting. Happy for you!
> 
> The bosses handled that as best as could be hoped for (with a gentle nudge from yourself, I think). Be thankful that they were marriage friendly.
> 
> ...


Today I assume is now her last day. I have already talked to my husband four times since he left for work. It is a rainy day here and they are not working so much. I wanted to stress to him, like you said about false accusations, etc.., that she is going to want to confront him at some point today. I told him not to even answer her and if she attempts to get in the big truck with him to talk things out, he needs to be very forceful and tell her to get back in the little truck, and not worry about what she might need to discuss with him.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> If you don't mind me asking, how are you feeling after all that?


I still have a nervous feeling in my stomach. I think it really helped my H that his employers think a lot of him and that they don't know her hardly at all. I don't want to say that he suffered no consequences, but I think he was lucky that nothing changed for him in his job. I'm not sure how to make him feel like he still has a lot of work to do to complete this situation.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

canttrustu said:


> This is great news. Ginger, you still must confirm for a while that NC is being continued. Dont take his word for it. Sorry but you just cant yet. And as everyone else has stated, no rugsweeping. This must be dealt with between you and your H openly. He cant say "look you wanted her gone, she's gone so get over it" or anything like that. NO. He must deal with the fallout of your emotions and lack of trust. He must show remorse and be transparent. Make sure you read some reconciliation stickies and threads. Youve come a long way and you have a long way to go. First and foremost ensuring NC for the time being. She will likely trying to inch her way back or he will. Keep your eyes open.
> 
> Secondly, now you know your h is capable of this. Its something that needs to be addressed. To know why he allowed it. What within him made him loosen his boundaries so much that he violated his vows to such an extent?
> 
> COngrats Ginger. But stay here, there's still lots of work ahead.


Believe me I do feel like one of them is going to try to contact the other to really talk deeply about this whole thing. I am still using the VAR to try to catch that conversation. I know if I was her I would want answers about how the bosses found out and who talked to them. I assume the bosses wouldn't have told her that it was me that initiated the first call.
Thanks for the idea of reading the threads on reconciliation, because I am not sure what my next step should be. I do know I don't want any rug sweeping. I feel like getting her transferred was one very big step and I can thank all of you for repeatedly telling me how important this was to do.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

turnera said:


> This is very important. You in no way CAUSED him to do this, but if you want a strong marriage moving forward, you MUST take a hard look at what you both come home to. Have you read His Needs Her Needs? Now is an excellent time to read it. Together. It will explain everything.


Is His Needs Her Needs a book or something on this site?


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Believe me I do feel like one of them is going to try to contact the other to really talk deeply about this whole thing. I am still using the VAR to try to catch that conversation. I know if I was her I would want answers about how the bosses found out and who talked to them. I assume the bosses wouldn't have told her that it was me that initiated the first call.
> Thanks for the idea of reading the threads on reconciliation, because I am not sure what my next step should be. I do know *I don't want any rug sweeping. I feel like getting her transferred was one very big step and I can thank all of you for repeatedly telling me how important this was to do*.


You know ginger, you have done what needed done, scary as hell, yes I know...
Be so very proud of yourself, when newbies come onto to TAM, your thread would be a good read for them, how to handle it and not be afraid, to be willing to throw the marriage out the door in order to save it....

I have no doubt you will be fine....


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Is His Needs Her Needs a book or something on this site?


book 

His Needs, Her Needs

another good one is The 5 Love Languages

Books | The 5 Love Languages®


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> There's no harm at all in a bit of introspection. It's healthy for Sweet Ginger to if things could be better with her marriage. But here's the rub - things can _always_ be better in a marriage. No matter how good, there will always be room for improvement. Not every affair needs to be proceeded by 'problems'.
> 
> The main problem in this situation was H's lack of boundaries. Maybe he wasn't aware what they are; that they apply to both parties. He forgot what it means to be a husband, somehow convincing himself that it was okay for a married man to kiss anyone but his wife on the lips. It's an obvious line that can't be crossed. It matters not if OW or the next potential OW is friendly, does it with everyone, etc, etc. H as to confront his own self-deceptions which led him to jeopardise his marriage.
> 
> ...


I know my H has a flirty personality and my own mother told me that I shouldn't try to change his personality. Even last night he went over to the 80 year old neighbor ladies house to help her with something. (We are always looking out for her). Anyway she said she was sorry that she had to call him so late to help her and he told me he said something along the lines of "No that's fine because I am happy to sneak out of the house late at night and help a pretty lady." Needless to say I am not jealous of our elderly lady, but it made me feel bad and I am not sure why, other than maybe I am thinking he uses every opportunity to talk to women this way every day of his life. I know he need a list of boundaries.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

turnera said:


> True, but now that she's had this scare, it's a perfect time to take a look at the marriage and see if it's time for a tune-up. Harley suggests spending 15 hours a week together in non-kid/housework/work activities, to keep the love flowing. Most people get nowhere near that, and their lives dull away to a bare existence. We can have so much more than that, if we make the effort.


Who is Harley?


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Believe me I do feel like one of them is going to try to contact the other to really talk deeply about this whole thing. I am still using the VAR to try to catch that conversation. I know if I was her I would want answers about how the bosses found out and who talked to them. I assume the bosses wouldn't have told her that it was me that initiated the first call.
> Thanks for the idea of reading the threads on reconciliation, because I am not sure what my next step should be. I do know I don't want any rug sweeping. I feel like getting her transferred was one very big step and I can thank all of you for repeatedly telling me how important this was to do.


You should be proud for being so damned strong Ginger. You came and asked for help. You got it and listened. So many posters ask but refuse to take the hard step to demand NC no matter what that takes. YOU called the employer. So many would NOT have done that and this A would have continued. YOU fought for your marriage. Keep fighting. The next phase is full transparency. That means he tells YOU everything. You've read NJF right? So you know about 'walls and windows' ? NO more walls to you and no more windows to HER. One of the top ways to kill an affair is to kill the secrets between the partners. SO that means HE tells you everything that transpired between them. THATS GONNA SUCK for you. But you sit and listen CALMLY. Be as calm as you can. i know youre no robot and emotion will spill out. But the more rational and calm you are the more open he will be. Even if that means you go to the bathroom to throw up afterward- been there girl. THAT is the next step. Its important for him to bring you into the fold and push her out. THAT is the first step- TELLING YOU EVERYTING.

Also- HE needs to read NJF. It will open his eyes to that flirty personality he has and the dangers it carries...


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> I agree turnera.
> 
> There's nothing but good from working toward a happier healthier marriage together. Your advice is spot on.
> 
> ...


I would put money on him thinking just that, "Phew! Glad that's dealt with... what's for dinner?"


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

canttrustu said:


> You should be proud for being so damned strong Ginger. You came and asked for help. You got it and listened. So many posters ask but refuse to take the hard step to demand NC no matter what that takes. YOU called the employer. So many would NOT have done that and this A would have continued. YOU fought for your marriage. Keep fighting. The next phase is full transparency. That means he tells YOU everything. You've read NJF right? So you know about 'walls and windows' ? NO more walls to you and no more windows to HER. One of the top ways to kill an affair is to kill the secrets between the partners. SO that means HE tells you everything that transpired between them. THATS GONNA SUCK for you. But you sit and listen CALMLY. Be as calm as you can. i know your no robot and emotion will spill out. But the more rational and calm you are the more open he will be. Even if that means you go to the bathroom to throw up afterward- been there girl. THAT is the next step. Its important for him to bring you into the fold and push her out. THAT is the first step- TELLING YOU EVERYTING.
> 
> Also- HE needs to read NJF. It will open his eyes to that flirty personality he has and the dangers it carries...


I did finish NJF's. I think I need to buy a copy, since I keep renewing it from the library for him to read it.

I think getting him to tell me everything is going to be really hard. He stands firm on what he told me already is all that happened.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> I did finish NJF's. I think I need to buy a copy, since I keep renewing it from the library for him to read it.
> 
> I think getting him to tell me everything is going to be really hard. He stands firm on what he told me already is all that happened.


Well thats why he needs to read NJF. Getting them to tell you the truth and the whole truth is VERy difficult. It took me several mos. And it SUCKED. Believe me, I'd bet most anything that you dont know the half of it Ginger. He thinks by telling you he will drive you away when in reality keeping the secrets is what will eventually drive you away from him. When a person has a habit of lying either by omission or comission its a pattern that will lead to another affair quite often. Be sure that there are consequences here Ginger. So far, he's had it pretty darned easy.....


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Sweet Ginger said:


> I know my H has a flirty personality and my own mother told me that I shouldn't try to change his personality. Even last night he went over to the 80 year old neighbor ladies house to help her with something. (We are always looking out for her). Anyway she said she was sorry that she had to call him so late to help her and he told me he said something along the lines of "No that's fine because I am happy to sneak out of the house late at night and help a pretty lady." Needless to say I am not jealous of our elderly lady, but it made me feel bad and I am not sure why, other than maybe I am thinking he uses every opportunity to talk to women this way every day of his life. I know he need a list of boundaries.


Well, there is something that needs to be changed. There are probably some things that are futile or unhealthy to try to change; personality is probably one.

BUT, you are absolutely right. You can and should establish clear and concrete boundaries that are verifiable. That will go a long way to avoiding the sort of problems his personality (and now "track record") suggest he is vulnerable to.

Btw, his helpfulness with the elderly lady is admirable. Yet, I can relate to you being bothered by it as you described. My dad, in his retirement, helps all sorts of folks all the time (mows yards, fixes things all handyman-like, drives people to chemo, etc. -- and all for free), and I love that very "social" part of him. Yet, I have pangs of doubt, sometimes, when I see those he helps are women -- old, middle-aged, or young. I never got over his long running EA.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

canttrustu said:


> [...] Getting them to tell you the truth and the whole truth is VERy difficult. It took me several mos. And it SUCKED.
> 
> [...] When a person has a habit of lying either by omission or comission its a pattern that will lead to another affair quite often. [...]


I did a very poor job on getting all the facts; and, apparent facts I had in hand, to this day are explained away only by "her word". There is doubt every day that there was more to it all (PA, "Love") than she confessed. 

And, it seems these days, I am experiencing trouble as a result. Not because she's had another EA or more contact, but because I never did the work ON MYSELF to properly process the EA -- that it occurred, and what it is telling me about myself that I'm not hearing, and what I'm telling myself about it that I should not ("I'm a loser. An idiot. Less of "a man". Etc.)

Ginger, you've impress me with your strength and wits through all this. So, maybe you don't have as many things to process and learn as I did (do). But, just be sure you make yourself find out, either way, and do the right thing about YOU. It's part of treating yourself well.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Is His Needs Her Needs a book or something on this site?


 It's a book by Willard Harley, the founder of the site marriagebuilders.com (do NOT go to their forums, they are toxic and harmful). You can also find the Love Buster questionnaire and the Emotional Needs questionnaire there, which are essential for learning more about each other so that you can start making each other 99% happy.

His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage: Willard F. Jr. Harley: 9780800719388: Amazon.com: Books
Love Busters Questionnaire
Emotional Needs Questionnaire

Do the Love Buster questionnaire first. Learn how you harm your spouse and spend a couple months eliminating those bad habits. THEN do the EN questionnaire.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You've come a really long way with this in just a short time. I have no doubt that your H is seeing new strength and determination in you.

For you, if you try to stop yourself from feeling like you are perpetually walking a tightrope with your H, you might have a calmer, more confident sense of your own power. You are on firm ground. You have every right to expect your H to be faithful and honest. He was well on his way to establishing a serious extramarital relationship. You don't have to be hesitant about your feelings about that.

You should express the boundaries that you expect to hold in your M with confidence and the absolute belief that you deserve no less.

I think your H was very happy to eat his cake. The only way you will stop that is to demand the respect that you deserve. You have to demand it. You have to believe it and live it. He's lucky to have you. It's time he remembers exactly how lucky.

Keep up the monitoring. The OW had every reason to believe that she and your H had their own little secret and you were the W on the outside who was to be managed but not considered a threat to their arrangement. Keep letting your H know how wrong that calculation was. And they both made that calculation, not just the skanky OW.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> You've come a really long way with this in just a short time. I have no doubt that your H is seeing new strength and determination in you.
> 
> For you, if you try to stop yourself from feeling like you are perpetually walking a tightrope with your H, you might have a calmer, more confident sense of your own power. You are on firm ground. You have every right to expect your H to be faithful and honest. He was well on his way to establishing a serious extramarital relationship. You don't have to be hesitant about your feelings about that.
> 
> ...


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

On my post #277 I tell about how OW came to my husband with questions and comments yesterday at the end of the day, after they were talked to by bosses. Well I finally listened to my VAR from yesterday and my H seems to have left several things out of the conversation. This is some of how it really went:

OW - I'm going to give you an opportunity to come clean.
H -um hum
OW - So you can hopefully respect yourself, for you to put this crock of sh** on me.
H - I didn't put it on you.
OW - Yes you did! The boss's wife wouldn't even look at me..... whatever your wife said or did. This is gone beyond whatever.
H - I didn't put it on you.
OW - Then why do I have to go find another job?
H - I told my wife I wouldn't converse with you. And it is extremely uncomfortable working with someone you can't even say hello to.I promised my wife I wouldn't talk to you.
OW - It shouldn't of even gone to this point.
H - I know.
OW - So why do you let , why did you let it? And you just keep playing the game.
H - I honestly think we crossed barriers.
OW- A kiss to greet someone hello? Maybe in your mind it was something, but it was never in my mind. So for you to put that on me is a crock of sh**.
H - I didn't put that on you.
OW -Well it sounds like you did according to what they said.
H - Well it is what it is.
OW - So I'm just letting you know, if you are going to sling my name through the sh** , you can expect for you to be slung through it too.
H - I'm not degrading anybody.
Then truck slams.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Well, Ginger, this is hard to analyze because it's very possible that your H is paranoid about being recorded. Hard to know. If it's completely candid, though, it verifies that he's toeing the line and that he realizes their behavior was wrong. She's definitely p*ssed that she's being viewed as the bad one when it was both of them, but we already know that both of them were on board.

I'll keep my fingers crossed that they're scared enough to stay away from each other. Definitely keep monitoring.

How are things at home?


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

I think your H did really well here. I am appalled to read that someone thinks that kissing a co-worker hello, on the mouth, is something that is acceptable! Sheesh. When I was actually DATING one of my co-workers, we didnt even do that! (at work, I mean!)


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> Well, Ginger, this is hard to analyze because it's very possible that your H is paranoid about being recorded. Hard to know. If it's completely candid, though, it verifies that he's toeing the line and that he realizes their behavior was wrong. She's definitely p*ssed that she's being viewed as the bad one when it was both of them, but we already know that both of them were on board.
> 
> I'll keep my fingers crossed that they're scared enough to stay away from each other. Definitely keep monitoring.
> 
> How are things at home?


A little stressful, because when I asked him about this conversation and whether or not my name was brought up by him or her, he swears to me that neither one of them mentioned me at all, when clearly they did. So I quit asking "are you sure that I wasn't brought up in the conversation", just because I didn't want to let him know about the VAR. Wish he would start telling the truth, I know he remembers what was said.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Sweet Ginger said:


> A little stressful, /QUOTE]
> 
> It must suck to here their voices and even more to not know what their conversation means. Don't fall to the temptation of assuming the best here, for his track record does not suggest such assumptions are wise.
> 
> ...


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> Sweet Ginger said:
> 
> 
> > A little stressful, /QUOTE]
> ...


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Sweet Ginger said:


> PieceOfSky said:
> 
> 
> > I have not been able to release my feelings with tears at all. Not sure why, because I normally cry easily. My hurt is showing up as anger directed at him and stomach problems.
> ...


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

I know I should be happy that the OW is gone, off H's crew, as of Friday. Now I am trying to get H to come clean with everything, which is hard.
But, I never expected the blow I got this morning. We were just getting up and his phone rings. He picks it up and looks at the number and said he didn't recognize it, so he wasn't going to answer it. So I took his phone and redialed the number. A woman answers and I put the phone up to him and he says hello. Clearly he knows the woman, and she says oh sorry are you just getting up? And he says yes getting ready to go out to breakfast with my wife. After he hung up he tells me this is a woman he went to high school with and he also had sex with before we were married. He said it was a one night stand and even back then he didn't want his friends to know that he did have sex with her, since she kind of has a bad rep. In him trying to be honest with me, he tells me yes about 4 months ago he was trying to build up a relationship with her again in hopes that he could have sex with her. He also took her out to breakfast. This is different than the one at work, he would not want anyone to know he was after this person. Although he admits to kissing her on the lips hello, as well. No love talk with her.
With the one at work he stands firm that he wasn't trying to have sex with her, even though that relationship seems more likely to happen. I am totally confused now. Is it possible to have two EA's at the same time, or did he want the work one as an EA and the other he wanted to be strictly a PA with no emotions?
 Why can't I cry about this? I'm beginning to think something is wrong with me.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Why can't I cry about this? I'm beginning to think something is wrong with me.


I suspect you will. 

Don't let my earlier probing about your emotional state is make you think there is some "expectation" you should have and if you don't feel a certain way you are not normal.

You seem like a very normal person in a very difficult situation.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm so sorry. I mean, be grateful that he was honest with you, but if she hadn't called, I doubt he would have ever told you about it. And may have even carried forward with it. Do you have access to his call/text history? You're gonna have to start monitoring him now. Did you save the number?

And when you're in crisis mode, you often set up a wall so you don't fall apart. Once the crisis is resolved, you'll likely have a big meltdown.

What are you doing now?


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

I would take his phone away immediately, and see what contact attempts are made to his phone. And insist he stay home today so he cannot send anyone any signals while waiting to see who texts or calls. Ymmv.

Detailed call and tex history from cell provider can be revealing. Won't show text content probably, but who texted whom when.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

I second the question of "do you have access to his phone bill/call history?" AND this clearly was NOT happening just four mos ago and then stopped since she is still calling. Im sorry to say but think you may have a serial cheater on your hands and that is a very different problem from a one time issue. VERY different. Get access to that bill/call log and start digging. OR call that number back and ask her yourself whats going on....HE cannot be relied upon for truth. So so sorry Ginger.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I would throw him out. He is such a liar. And then he tells you just enough truth to wound you irreparably. He tells you that he was building up a relationship with her in the hopes of having sex with her?

I would. I would throw him out. I think CTU is right. You have a serial cheater that you're married to. I'm sorry, but I bet there is lots, lots more.

Throw him out and let him back only after he has passed a polygraph. (And yes, I know they are unreliable, but they sure as h3ll concentrate the mind.)


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

The problem with the phone is that it is his company's phone. And I know they are blocked from texting on their phones now. They had texting for a short time last year when he was texting the one from work. 
How and where do you go to get a polygraph?
I am 100 % positive the thing he had going at work is/was an EA. And I can tell he still is concerned about what happened to her. But this one today is just yuck. My sister knows of this woman and the story on her is she is a who** and big time into drugs. I can tell he has no emotional concern for this one. My H turns 60 this summer and I am in my early 50's. I am wondering if he has lost it and is going through some kind of mid life crisis.
Today he has apologized over and over again. He said he is a fool and can't believe he did what he did. I am numb right now, and have a loss of appetite. I also can't seem to concentrate on anything, including helping my youngest get organized for her first time to the prom with a boy.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

I want him to call the one that called this morning back, and say something or ask her something that would let me know one way or another if they actually did have sex yet. Any suggestions what he could say to her on the phone that would give me that answer?


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Is it a smartphone like an iPhone or blackberry or android, ie. can it run apps?

Does he have access to the Internet on phone or pc/laptop/tablet?

My wife never texted. Guess she was a bit old fashioned with the 2000+ plus minutes (EDIT: I type "hours" originally, but it was minutes lol) of calls a month. Which did stick out like a sore thumb once I tapped into her cell carriers website.

Employers wife might be willing to get you access to call records. Though what it reveals might get him fired.

It sucks you have this to deal with at this noteworthy time in your daughter's life. I am confident you will get through this, as you are strong and obviously deserving.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Sweet Ginger said:


> I want him to call the one that called this morning back, and say something or ask her something that would let me know one way or another if they actually did have sex yet. Any suggestions what he could say to her on the phone that would give me that answer?


If I recall correctly, he didn't play along very well with that sort of thing when you tried something like that by calling antler-girl. If thats the case, i fear he'd tip her off too, immediately. Apologies if I'm mixing in something from another thread.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Sweet Ginger said:


> I know I should be happy that the OW is gone, off H's crew, as of Friday. Now I am trying to get H to come clean with everything, which is hard.
> But, I never expected the blow I got this morning. We were just getting up and his phone rings. He picks it up and looks at the number and said he didn't recognize it, so he wasn't going to answer it. So I took his phone and redialed the number. A woman answers and I put the phone up to him and he says hello. Clearly he knows the woman, and she says oh sorry are you just getting up? And he says yes getting ready to go out to breakfast with my wife. After he hung up he tells me this is a woman he went to high school with and he also* had sex with *before we were married. He said it was a one night stand and even back then he didn't want his friends to know that he did have sex with her, since she kind of has a bad rep. In him trying to be honest with me, he tells me yes about 4 months ago he was trying to build up a relationship with her again in *hopes that he could have sex with her*. *He also took her out **to breakfast*. This is different than the one at work, he would not want anyone to know he was after this person. Although he admits to kissing her on the lips hello, as well. No love talk with her.
> With the one at work he stands firm that he wasn't trying to have sex with her, even though that relationship seems more likely to happen. I am totally confused now. Is it possible to have two EA's at the same time, or did he want the work one as an EA and the other he wanted to be strictly a PA with no emotions?
> Why can't I cry about this? I'm beginning to think something is wrong with me.


Ginger if he meet up with her only ONCE and she is a skank bag...and he admitted he wanted to have sex with her AGAIN! 
I hate to be the one to say this, but you may want to get tested for STD's and quit having sex with him until you both get tested, what if he is lying(yet again) and did have sex with her? and she has something....Once is all it takes.


PS...I'm so sorry that you are going thru this.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

@ Sky - His phone is just a regular old style phone that flips up. Just to let you know I decided to call her and ask her point blank, "are you sleeping with my H?" She said he asked her and she did not do it. H then told me she had told him she would, but that she wanted money. My H is way too cheap to pay for it.

@ Stuggling - I have already told my H that very same thing, that I want him tested and I too am going to get tested.

And this is to let everyone know about the EA that most hurts and scares me the most. On Friday the owner was going to give the OW a choice of locations to transfer to or to leave. This morning when H sent new guy down to pick 3 rd crew member up he came back with OW in the little truck. My H called the office and they told him no she should not be there. The owner said Friday when he went to talk to her, she just turned away from him and got in her own truck and left, so they assumed she quit. I can not believe the nerve of this woman to show up to work on my H's crew after blatantly ignoring the owner. She just doesn't want to leave this particular crew.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Sweet Ginger said:


> On Friday the owner was going to give the OW a choice of locations *to transfer to or to leave. *This morning when H sent new guy down to pick 3 rd crew member up he came back with OW in the little truck. My H called the office and *they told him no she should not be there.* The owner said Friday when he went to talk to her, she just turned away from him and got in her own truck and left, so they assumed she quit. I can not believe the nerve of this woman to show up to work on my H's crew after blatantly ignoring the owner. *She just doesn't want to leave this particular crew.*


Hey SG, I hope this provides a little reassurance. Remember a while back I mentioned how you had to tread carefully when talking to the owner's wife; as no business owner wants to be told how to run their company? Well, the OW is not respecting the owner's clearly communicated wishes (the bolded bits). He's also thinking "I can not believe the nerve of this woman..."

I don't think OW will remain an employee much longer.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

So is the owner going to come in and fire her for directly ignoring his orders??????


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> Well, the OW is not respecting the owner's clearly communicated wishes (the bolded bits). He's also thinking "I can not believe the nerve of this woman..."
> 
> I don't think OW will remain an employee much longer.


Agreed. Though her "persistence" might be a bit unnerving, I think she is making it clear to the owners that she's an unsolvable problem. I think that will make them instantly more sympathetic to you, should you ever need their help.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> Hey SG, I hope this provides a little reassurance. Remember a while back I mentioned how you had to tread carefully when talking to the owner's wife; as no business owner wants to be told how to run their company? Well, the OW is not respecting the owner's clearly communicated wishes (the bolded bits). He's also thinking "I can not believe the nerve of this woman..."
> 
> I don't think OW will remain an employee much longer.


Oh yes I do remember you saying that and that was exactly what I did when I called and you were right in saying that the bosses wife would know what to do.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

The owner gave OW two choices:

a) Transfer
b) Leave

The situation now is between the owner and OW. You and H don't come into it. OW is just begging for him to pull the trigger and he will.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

canttrustu said:


> So is the owner going to come in and fire her for directly ignoring his orders??????


I know when my H called the office and talked to owner, he gave my H a phone number for her to call. She called it in front of the new guy and he told my H that she was told that she needs to decide what location or leave, but that she can NOT be at the location with my H. She then left, but is probably is not working today and probably has to give an answer before tomorrow. Before she left she told the new guy that my H was a a**hole and the bosses wife was a bit**. I'm sure she had a word for me also, but H wasn't going to tell me. Wondering if I will see her in her truck driving around my neighborhood, Keeping an eye out for her.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> I know when my H called the office and talked to owner, he gave my H a phone number for her to call. She called it in front of the new guy and he told my H that she was told that she needs to decide what location or leave, but that she can NOT be at the location with my H. She then left, but is probably is not working today and probably has to give an answer before tomorrow. Before she left she told the new guy that my H was a a**hole and the bosses wife was a bit**. I'm sure she had a word for me also, but H wasn't going to tell me. Wondering if I will see her in her truck driving around my neighborhood, Keeping an eye out for her.


So you still have the VAR in his truck??? In case he calls her or she calls him? Or in case he calls the other woman.....


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Ginger....wow just plain UFB, there are at least two OW, one on her way out the door and now the other one, the one he went to, *specifically*! to have sex with...such a good guy he is ,turning her down because "She would but she wanted money" wonder what would have happened had she not wanted money, suddenly he got his morals back because he was way to cheap


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

canttrustu said:


> So you still have the VAR in his truck??? In case he calls her or she calls him? Or in case he calls the other woman.....


I did not get to put it in the bag this morning. He was so obsessed over the weekend, about how I knew things that he mentioned that he thought I bugged him. So I was afraid to put it in there this morning, for fear that he would find it. 
He did call me and tell me the want to be, one night stand woman called him on his way to work. He said she told him that his wife had better not call her ever again and she told him this was the last time she would be talking to him. Not sure what I believe about this phone call.
He sure has had an interesting morning dealing with both women.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

strugglinghusband said:


> Ginger....wow just plain UFB, there are at least two OW, one on her way out the door and now the other one, the one he went to, *specifically*! to have sex with...such a good guy he is ,turning her down because "She would but she wanted money" wonder what would have happened had she not wanted money, suddenly he got his morals back because he was way to cheap


UFB is right. I did ask him that very thing, and his answer was he didn't think he could have actually followed through with it. So I said I guess I should be thankful that this OW asked for money so you didn't have to decide about that temptation. BTW, when I told my sister who this woman was, she thought it was UFB that he would even want to touch her. And I did ask him was he planning to use protection if and when he did have sex with her. He said if he did he would have went and got protection. I said, so if you don't actually have it with you, when you took her out to breakfast would you have had to make a really quick stop at the drug store, if that was going to be the day of the encounter, and what if the drug store wasn't open yet. His new thing is calling himself a fool and saying he didn't realize how lucky he was to have me and our three children.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Sweet Ginger said:


> I did not get to put it in the bag this morning. He was so obsessed over the weekend, about how I knew things that he mentioned that he thought I bugged him. So I was afraid to put it in there this morning, for fear that he would find it.
> He did call me and tell me the want to be, one night stand woman called him on his way to work. He said she told him that his wife had better not call her ever again and she told him this was the last time she would be talking to him. Not sure what I believe about this phone call.
> He sure has had an interesting morning dealing with both women.


What an a**. He is still not showing any remorse for those things you've already nailed him with. And does he think you are studpid for not realizing what he's up to? I don't understand why you permit him to treat you with such little respect?


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Before she left she told the new guy that my H was a a**hole and the bosses wife was a bit**.


Odd. Maybe the bosses wife was the one telling her that on the phone?

Interesting, though, and possibly of use later if somehow she continues to be employed there and continues to be a problem.

(Edit: Removed flippant remark about antler girl. I was pissed, and antlr girl deserves it, but, I think it was a bit out of touch with must be going on in SG's mind at the moment. Sorry about that.)


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## His_Wife_77 (Jun 9, 2011)

OMG... SweetGinger, I hurt for you and I don't even know you. My husband had a number of online affairs. They cut me so deep that I couldn't breathe at times. I get it... I'm so sorry for what you're dealing with. 

EVERYTHING your husband is doing is INAPPROPRIATE.. EVERYTHING. He is TOTALLY out of line and you do not deserve that... Give him some space so he can figure out what he wants. Because this is so unfair to you and SO HURTFUL..


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Sweet Ginger said:


> He did call me and tell me the want to be, one night stand woman called him on his way to work. He said she told him that his wife had better not call her ever again and she told him this was the last time she would be talking to him. Not sure what I believe about this phone call.


My brain is struggling to understand just what sort of person this woman is, and how her behavior might play out. 

For one, I'm trying to grasp that, quite literally, she is a wh*re. As such, I can see her not wanting to be bothered by customers' wives and girlfriends. On the other hand, as long as she's satisfied "the wife" has been subdued, I'd guess she'd have no trouble continuing to reel in a potential new "client". 

I guess my point is, don't assume she has lost interest, just based upon your husband's report of her getting angry.

I am, too, so sorry you have this happening. I'm sure you deserve much much better, and will get it one way or the other.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

All of this makes me wonder WHAT ELSE your H has done....


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> My brain is struggling to understand just what sort of person this woman is, and how her behavior might play out.
> 
> For one, I'm trying to grasp that, quite literally, she is a wh*re.


She's a woman who only refused to have sex because she wouldn't be paid. If it walks like a duck, etc.

Personally, I'm struggling to understand wtf H was thinking. He was too embarrassed to tell his mates that he'd had a ONS with her decades ago. I doubt her lifestyle in the meantime has improved her looks.



> His new thing is calling himself a fool and saying he didn't realize how lucky he was to have me and our three children.


That sounds too much like "Oh yeah, silly me." H can't think he's out of the woods yet. True, he confessed - but that was _only_ a result of her calling him (supposedly after 4 months). 

What other secrets are there? How is he going to make sure his life from now on is transparent? He has to start giving answers.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

After reading all of this I think you should stop confronting and dig deeper. It sounds like he's been crapping in the basement for awhile and now you're just seeing what's comming up through the floor boards.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

SweetGinger, 

I'm wondering if tomorrow might be a good time to reach out to the boss-wife again - this time to ask for help in acquiring the call/text records for the company provided cell phone H uses to communicate with these women.

I suspect antler-girl's behavior has given you a credibility boost with the employer (not that you needed one). And, perhaps you could convey that new information has come in that makes you really hunger for a way to measure the extent of his activity.

I hate to recommend that, because I know a list of calls etc. in black and white on a page can really really hurt.

But my hunch is he has been using that phone to make contact, if indeed he has made contact, over an extended period of time. So it might turn out to be a very clarifying piece of data.

Just my two cents. Just a thought.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> SweetGinger,
> 
> I'm wondering if tomorrow might be a good time to reach out to the boss-wife again - this time to ask for help in acquiring the call/text records for the company provided cell phone H uses to communicate with these women.
> 
> ...


I would be afraid that would be pushing the employer just a little too much, were it me. 

I hate to say this SG, but with this new info about him actively seeking sex from another woman, I think its time to have a heart to heart with H about what it is that he feels is lacking in the marriage. Otherwise, you will get through this episode, only to find yourselves tuned in to another one down the road.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I don't believe that he didn't have sex with that woman. And I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't a few more to dig up.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> I would be afraid that would be pushing the employer just a little too much, were it me.
> (


Good point, if you mean H might end up getting fired. Phone logs might be very helpful, but, H not having a job would hurt SG and the kids.

So, consider me to be back on the fence.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

I don't want to go to the boss's wife to get phone information at this point, even though I would love to see it. I am afraid of getting him fired if I made that move right now. I still don't know what happened to the OW, (if she was transferred or if she quit).
I know it seems like I am letting him treat me with no respect, but I am a little numb and don't quite know what I'm going to do next and trying to think of options.
I did have a heart to heart with him last night with out getting loud or angry. He did admit that he was also working towards having sex with the OW that he worked with, but says he doesn't know if it came down to it if he would have actually done anything. 
He swears I know everything now. But I told him he has told me this before. I really wanted for him to come clean before I went to a MC.
Just wondering if anyone ever found out that their WS had some kind of mid life crisis or had some mental problem that was the reason for their cheating?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What many people call MLC, I call getting older and realizing you're not the hot stud you used to think you are, and you're running out of time to fulfill that fantasy of getting all the hot crazy sex you grew up knowing you'd get. 

Basically, it's called being selfish and putting YOUR needs ahead of your wife's. No matter what you call it.

And I don't believe him.

Line up a polygraph.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

Sweet Ginger said:


> I don't want to go to the boss's wife to get phone information at this point, even though I would love to see it. I am afraid of getting him fired if I made that move right now. I still don't know what happened to the OW, (if she was transferred or if she quit).
> * I know it seems like I am letting him treat me with no respect, but I am a little numb and don't quite know what I'm going to do next and trying to think of options.
> I did have a heart to heart with him last night with out getting loud or angry. He did admit that he was also working towards having sex with the OW that he worked with, but says he doesn't know if it came down to it if he would have actually done anything.
> He swears I know everything now. But I told him he has told me this before. I really wanted for him to come clean before I went to a MC*.
> Just wondering if anyone ever found out that their WS had some kind of mid life crisis or had some mental problem that was the reason for their cheating?


Sweet Ginger, I am sorry that you are going through this. I haven't read the entire thread, it's way too long, but it seems like you have been through the wringer.

The truth, from what I can see, is that your husband has fallen into some very bad habits. I am sure you know by now that you cannot correct his behaviour with threats or with sweetness. This is one hundred percent on him. The reason I say this is because he you simply can't trust him anymore. Even if and when he does tell you everything 1)You would have to believe him (which you are nowhere close to doing 2) believe that none of it would ever happen again and 3) forgive yourself for letting him do this (because you haven't LET him do anything) and only then would you be willing to forgive him. Quite frankly none of that is going to happen outside of a marriage counselor. If you are not ready for an MC then I implore you to go to at least an IC before you make any decisions about your husband. If you decide to let him stay, or not to divorce, you need to have a vision for your marriage other than "not this". And if you do decide to leave, you still have to have a vision other than "not this".

Right now it appears to me that by looking at excuses for his behaviour you are looking for a way to not face the problems you dealing with. A proffesional counselor can really help.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Just wondering if anyone ever found out that their WS had some kind of mid life crisis or had some mental problem that was the reason for their cheating?


I'm skeptical of the notion of a mid-life crisis. At my age (47), I certainly see doors closing and have a sense of urgency about sneaking something fulfilling in the years ahead. But, I just can't relate to the notion someone could be "driven" towards something harmful or destructive because of any "crises" one was in about this sort of thing.

Yet, I do see that folks make mistakes, for a variety of reasons, and some have issues and feelings I can relate to, or sympathize with, or at least recognize exist. And, maybe that helps me to feel some compassion for them.

But, in doing so, there is a big risk: having insufficient compassion for myself. 

And another risk: shifting focus to them -- maybe giving them excuses for not doing better next time, and distracting myself from the things I need to change in me, to see that my needs are consistently honored and met.

I think what I described in that last paragraph has been the theme to my whole marriage, and I am now paying the price. But, I'm starting to work on it in IC. 

Re. mental illness, sure, there are some mental illnesses that cause people to act out sexually (perhaps manic episodes of bipolar depression, perhaps others).

A mental health professional might be able to help YOU sort all this out, yet keep your eye on the ball.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

turnera said:


> What many people call MLC, I call getting older and realizing you're not the hot stud you used to think you are, and you're running out of time to fulfill that fantasy of getting all the hot crazy sex you grew up knowing you'd get.
> 
> *Basically, it's called being selfish and putting YOUR needs ahead of your wife's. No matter what you call it.*
> And I don't believe him.
> ...


:iagree::iagree:
It is not an excuse.
And for what its worth, from what I see, your heart to heart was nothing but trickle-truth.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

OMG I can not believe what happened. I threatened my H with a polygraph and he said he didn't want to do it because it would be degrading to him. And I'm like WTH, do you think what you are doing to me is, if not degrading. Well this made him open up with more than I expected. He has confessed to me that he has been naked with the fuc**** ugly drug selling whor* at least twice within the last year. He said he attempted to have sex with her but wasn't able to make a "stand" so could not complete the job. Since he couldn't finish the actual event he made sure to please her in another way, that makes me want to absolutely throw up. I will never get this mental picture out of my head. I guess I need to go to IC or MC because I have no idea what I want to do.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

I'm so sorry, SweetGinger. You do not deserve this.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Ah hell, Ginger...wtf. I was hoping for better. I hope this is everything, but brace yourself in case there is more. I'm so sorry.


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## brokenbythis (Aug 21, 2011)

Pluto2 said:


> line crossed


Hell yeah it has been crossed.


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## brokenbythis (Aug 21, 2011)

Sweet Ginger said:


> OMG I can not believe what happened. I threatened my H with a polygraph and he said he didn't want to do it because it would be degrading to him. And I'm like WTH, do you think what you are doing to me is, if not degrading. Well this made him open up with more than I expected. He has confessed to me that he has been naked with the fuc**** ugly drug selling whor* at least twice within the last year. He said he attempted to have sex with her but wasn't able to make a "stand" so could not complete the job. Since he couldn't finish the actual event he made sure to please her in another way, that makes me want to absolutely throw up. I will never get this mental picture out of my head. I guess I need to go to IC or MC because I have no idea what I want to do.


I've been down this road too. These confessions made me throw up. My STBXH having unprotected sex with total skanks. Now one of them is pregnant. OMG. I filed 2.5 wks ago.

I'm done.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm so sorry. 

You know what to do. No polygraph, no marriage.

Remember this: cheaters ALWAYS tell you just enough to make you stop asking questions. ALWAYS. So if you got "I was naked twice," it really means he's probably screwed 3 or 4 women.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

What a sickening development. So sorry to hear this.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Hey Sweet G-----what you got to understand, and deal with fairly quickly is the following

Your H, ain't to far from retiring---once he retires, and you do the same---the 2 of you will spend ALL OF YOUR TIME TOGETHER

Right now you have a mess on your hands---your H---isn't having a mid life crises---he is probably having his last fling-----I am sure when he looks at younger women---he knows in his mind most don't even acknowledge him, as they would think of him as an OLD MAN---and he is trying like he*l---to not go there yet.

How old are these 2 women he is messing with???

Obviously you only have 2 choices stay or go---so now it is on you---right now you are miserable, and it is getting worse with every word, or should I say lie that comes out of your H's mouth

If you decide to R, You can send him to IC, and put him on strict boundaries, such as no contact with any women outside of your immediate family and friends, no alcohol, and no time away from you, where he is by himself, and might go looking for women----he now also knows, he can't perform regularly anymore---so mentally he is even more screwed up

He may have crossed one bridge to many, and just maybe you have had it with him---If you leave I guarantee you will survive---obviously you have kids/family/good friends---so you will make it----You just have to decide---how you will spend the rest of your days-------You do realize tho---with this new info---where before you thot he was at a certain level in his chasing of women, he has gone way beyond that level------and your sub--conscious is now gonna kick in---and so YOU now have that to deal with

Just maybe this is really the tip of a very large iceberg that goes back years---your H, seems to have a penchant for screwing around, it just seems that as he is getting older, he isn't covering up as well

Biggest thing you MUST deal with, as I said before---it won't be long before you will be spending ALL of your time with him---day after day 24/7---for that is what retirement is all about---so you need to get this all straight as to what you wanna do

If you do allow him to stay with you---and you notice I said IF YOU ALLOW HIM TO STAY WITH YOU---for that is the ATTITUDE, you must now take with him---maybe he needs to get kicked out, for more than just a few days---you need to STOP giving him sex, stop being nice to him, and do make him take a POLY---go to your local police station---they will give you all the help you need on how to find a good poly operator

Stay strong---and be very hard about this-----it is what you MUST do---to preserve YOUR FUTURE


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Sweet Ginger, I am so sorry you are going through this.
Let me give him a huge cosmis smack upside the head for you. Why, oh why, does he think that what he did is somehow less reprehensible than "technical " intercourse? Is he trying for brownie points for honesty? Too, bad, because he has not been honest, and I STILL don't believe him. He is trickly-truthing you .... again.... and he is just disgusting. A polygraph would degrade him! OMG.
Lawyer up, don't leave, stay where you are and toss his a^^ out. Go to IC. Breath in and out. Put your ducks in a row and then wait. Wait until you can think straight to decide what you want. Until then, make sure he can't screw you financially.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

jnj express said:


> Hey Sweet G-----what you got to understand, and deal with fairly quickly is the following
> 
> Your H, ain't to far from retiring---once he retires, and you do the same---the 2 of you will spend ALL OF YOUR TIME TOGETHER
> 
> ...


:iagree:

It's like he has cheater's Tourettes - he just can't stop blurting out shocking things.

This does sound like 'last fling' behavior, although you also don't know whether he's been cheating on you over the years and you just never discovered it.

I completely agree with the the last few posters. You need to put on your big girl panties now and be tough. If it were me, I would make him leave and let him return only if he took a poly. I don't think he wants to lose you, but the ONLY thing he will take seriously is showing him the true consequences of what he is doing. By all rights, the true consequences should be that he loses you. You have to be strong to show him that.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Hard to understand that H would think a polygraph test is more degrading than his choice of affair partner. 

Pack his bags (like the last time, sigh). You'll need space and time to make decisions.


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## thesunwillcomeout (Jun 25, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> :iagree:
> 
> It's like he has cheater's Tourettes - he just can't stop blurting out shocking things.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more. I just caught up on your thread and wow, what a turn of events. Ginger -- I think you need a big break from him. You need time to clear his voice from your head so you can gain even more perspective -- and boy do you have a lot of perspective right now. He'll try to call the shots on this...You can't let him have even the tiniest bit of wiggle room. Time for him to face consequences. Seriously.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

Sweet Ginger, superficially I agree with all the above postings about teaching him natural consquences to his behaviour like leaving or taking a poly. Except...well I don't think he's capable of "learning his lesson". The more that we try to teach people the error of their ways the more they tend to cling to them or hide them from us. The more we try to force an issue the more they entrench themselves.

If you decide to divorce, imho, you need to do it for you. Forget about teaching him a lesson or giving him what he deserves or any of that vengeful type thinking. You've been trying to catch him in lies for a long time now. Sometimes he throws you a bone, sometimes he doesn't. Anyway all it does is leave you guessing and guessing some more and it gives him more power over you. Divorcing should set you on a path of healing and acceptance that you are not to blame. Not entrench you in his twisted emotional turmoil.

If you decide to stay you are going to have to accept the fact that you are never going to learn or know everything. You may be able after much heartache learn the wheres, whens, and hows, but the chances of you knowing the whys are minimal because, chances are, even he can't tell you why. You may have to begin by finding ways to assure yourself from the present forward that he is not straying. 

As much as I would say that you need space and time, the reality is that you don't have the luxury of not making a decision. Staying in this limbo you are in will only cause you more heartache.

*hugs*


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

brokenbythis said:


> I've been down this road too. These confessions made me throw up. My STBXH having unprotected sex with total skanks. Now one of them is pregnant. OMG. I filed 2.5 wks ago.
> 
> I'm done.


So sorry you are going through the same thing!


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

jnj express said:


> Hey Sweet G-----what you got to understand, and deal with fairly quickly is the following
> 
> Your H, ain't to far from retiring---once he retires, and you do the same---the 2 of you will spend ALL OF YOUR TIME TOGETHER
> 
> ...


What you are saying in this post is very helpful. As far as the age of these women, they are both older than me. Although I do know he does flirt with younger women. I also like the boundaries that you listed, it is a good starting point.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

Pluto2 said:


> Sweet Ginger, I am so sorry you are going through this.
> Let me give him a huge cosmis smack upside the head for you. Why, oh why, does he think that what he did is somehow less reprehensible than "technical " intercourse? Is he trying for brownie points for honesty? Too, bad, because he has not been honest, and I STILL don't believe him. He is trickly-truthing you .... again.... and he is just disgusting. A polygraph would degrade him! OMG.
> Lawyer up, don't leave, stay where you are and toss his a^^ out. Go to IC. Breath in and out. Put your ducks in a row and then wait. Wait until you can think straight to decide what you want. Until then, make sure he can't screw you financially.


Good advice!


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

Well now I am looking into IC for me and IC for him as well. H has agreed to also get checked for std's. (At first he didn't want to, but I told him even though he said he didn't actually complete the dirty deed, he was completely naked touching a well known whor*). H's attitude is now total remorse, ashamed of himself, and now begging me to forgive him. He asked me the last two mornings to think about what it will take for him to do, to atone for how he treated me and what he did to me. I am still too numb to make any kind of decision. I wonder what it is going to take for me, to actually say those words to him, "I forgive you"?


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

It's too easy for him. Let him have a think for himself. It's not for you to give him a checklist. You're the one still reeling from his infidelity. He's had months to come to terms with that.

He has to feel what he has done to you, truly understand it. He has to put himself in your shoes. Then he can come up with ways (actions and changes in behaviour) to make it up to you for as long as you need.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

azteca1986 said:


> It's too easy for him. Let him have a think for himself. It's not for you to give him a checklist. You're the one still reeling from his infidelity. He's had months to come to terms with that.
> 
> He has to feel what he has done to you, truly understand it. He has to put himself in your shoes. Then he can come up with ways (actions and changes in behaviour) to make it up to you for as long as you need.


:iagree::iagree:
This is not like going to confession and saying three Hail Mary's and he done.
He needs to leave you alone, let you have your space. IC for both is good, but be sure you have someone who deals with infidelity. Sending hugs....


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sweet Ginger said:


> H's attitude is now total remorse, ashamed of himself, and now begging me to forgive him. He asked me the last two mornings to think about what it will take for him to do,


Well, to start with, he can take the freakin' polygraph. Arrange it. Today.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Ginger before you can think of forgiving, you need to know 100% what you are forgiving....

PS. The forgiving is for you, not him.....


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

strugglinghusband said:


> Ginger before you can think of forgiving, you need to know 100% what you are forgiving....
> 
> PS. The forgiving is for you, not him.....


^^^ Exactly. He's been actively lying to you. His story changes every time you discover something. If you rugsweep now it will probably come back to bite you.

I will tell you, Ginger, if you go cold and very firm on him you have a chance of keeping your marriage together. He's trying to manage you. He's waiting for you to cool off so that things can go back to the way they were. If you don't demand and follow up with real consequences, this has no chance of stopping.

Tell him that you do not know if you want to give him a chance. Think carefully about the concrete things he would have to do to allow you to begin to trust again. A poly would help this. Then follow through. Do not cave. Stay firm. Show consistent strength and a willingness and determination to leave.

Some people only take you seriously when you are literally walking out the door. It finally shows them what they stand to lose.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Well now I am looking into IC for me and IC for him as well. H has agreed to also get checked for std's. (At first he didn't want to, but I told him even though he said he didn't actually complete the dirty deed, he was completely naked touching a well known whor*). H's attitude is now total remorse, ashamed of himself, and now begging me to forgive him. He asked me the last two mornings to think about what it will take for him to do, to atone for how he treated me and what he did to me. I am still too numb to make any kind of decision. I wonder what it is going to take for me, to actually say those words to him, "I forgive you"?


Forgive is the easy part. Forget... That's another story. You forgive him for you, when you're ready. Forget, never. He needs to earn back what he's lost and then maybe you'll be a new couple.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

alte Dame said:


> ^^^ Exactly. He's been actively lying to you. His story changes every time you discover something. If you rugsweep now it will probably come back to bite you.
> 
> I will tell you, Ginger, if you go cold and very firm on him you have a chance of keeping your marriage together. He's trying to manage you. He's waiting for you to cool off so that things can go back to the way they were. If you don't demand and follow up with real consequences, this has no chance of stopping.
> 
> ...


:iagree: x 100

It's now about what you want and need, and he better jump on what ever is required here, no bargaining with you or like alte is saying " Manage you" be firm "My way babe or the highway" accept nothing less!


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

I agree with Struggling - I need to know 100 % what to forgive, in order to forgive.
Just today on the phone my H tells me he was also telling this whor* that he was naked with, that he loved her. He said it was true that she asked for money, but it was after he had been with her twice and couldn't perform, so she told him to quit wasting her time or else if he wanted to try again he would have to pay for it.
I will never understand this nonsense! I am setting a polygraph up for him to take and he has agreed to do it.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> ^^^ Exactly. He's been actively lying to you. His story changes every time you discover something. If you rugsweep now it will probably come back to bite you.
> 
> I will tell you, Ginger, if you go cold and very firm on him you have a chance of keeping your marriage together. He's trying to manage you. He's waiting for you to cool off so that things can go back to the way they were. If you don't demand and follow up with real consequences, this has no chance of stopping.
> 
> ...


I am standing firm, even though it is hard when he is begging. I know this is my only chance and that if I cave now, I will never have another chance to set any kind of boundaries or anything.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

When he begs give your terms. Non negotiable.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I feel it's ok for you to give him a list. Most waywards have no way to figure out 'what' to do to earn you back. Your list is a good start. It must/should include:
polygraph (we can help you with the questions)
NO passwords on any electronic device or if one must be there for work, INSTANT access to that device any time you wish to see it. If he works for a place where you are not allowed to SEE that device, he must quit (to keep you).
He tells you where he is at all times, until you no longer need to know.
He tells you ahead of time if he is deviating from where he's supposed to be.
He is not allowed to contact any females with whom you are not also involved.
He writes and YOU send a No Contact letter to OW at work (and other woman/women, if they are recent) - it's not to end contact, it's for the humility he must endure, to feel the brunt of the pain you're going through.
He attends MC with you for as long as you want it. As well as his IC.

If it comes to light that he is a serial cheater and you decide to keep him, I'll suggest some sort of post nup wherein he gives up ALL money and ALL rights if you catch him again.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Good news on the polygraph. I understand they're most effective when questions are absolute - Yes/No, specific numbers.

Do you need any advice with that, or are you on top of it?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Just today on the phone my H tells me he was also telling this whor* that he was naked with, that he loved her.


Aside from the startling fact that your H is romancing a well-known wh0re, he seems to habitually offer up incendiary information voluntarily, out of the blue. Or did you ask him if he told her he loved her?

This isn't really trickle truth. It sounds like a serious lack of judgment on what is socially appropriate. Most lying cheaters have to be put on a rack to admit the things your H spontaneously divulges to you.

His behavior in general sounds very 'off' to me.

Definitely do the poly and think super carefully about the formulation of the questions. Decide what your dealbreakers are in any decision to keep going with him.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

turnera said:


> I feel it's ok for you to give him a list. Most waywards have no way to figure out 'what' to do to earn you back. Your list is a good start. It must/should include:
> polygraph (we can help you with the questions)
> NO passwords on any electronic device or if one must be there for work, INSTANT access to that device any time you wish to see it. If he works for a place where you are not allowed to SEE that device, he must quit (to keep you).
> He tells you where he is at all times, until you no longer need to know.
> ...


Thanks for helping me start my list for my H, with what you listed above. And I would appreciate any help with poly questions for him that anyone can offer me. I have asked him to write a NC letter to the one he was naked with and not the other one. Then after I send it I am going to put the VAR in his truck, because I am sure that she will call him about it. And then I can hear if he tells her he was forced to write the letter.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> Good news on the polygraph. I understand they're most effective when questions are absolute - Yes/No, specific numbers.
> 
> Do you need any advice with that, or are you on top of it?


Thanks and as I said to Turnera, I will take any help with poly questions.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> Aside from the startling fact that your H is romancing a well-known wh0re, he seems to habitually offer up incendiary information voluntarily, out of the blue. Or did you ask him if he told her he loved her?
> 
> This isn't really trickle truth. It sounds like a serious lack of judgment on what is socially appropriate. Most lying cheaters have to be put on a rack to admit the things your H spontaneously divulges to you.
> 
> ...


I am the one that asked him if he told her that he loved her. Because I was thinking about how he said he greeted this one with a kiss on the lips and hugging her, just like with the one on his crew. So I thought if he was kissing her also, was he also telling this one he loved her, just like the other one. And sure enough when I asked him he said yes he told her that he loved her after their second encounter. He said he told her that on the phone as well. So I asked him how he could love three different women at the same time, me, the work one, and the whor*. He said he just said that to them but didn't mean it, but that he means it when he says it to me. 
When you say his behavior is off, sometimes I wonder if my H doesn't have mental issues. Mental problems run in his family. His older brother was diagnosed as being bipolar and also having asperger syndrome.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Sweet Ginger said:


> When you say his behavior is off, sometimes I wonder if my H doesn't have mental issues. Mental problems run in his family. His older brother was diagnosed as being bipolar and also having asperger syndrome.


You should make getting this checked out immediately part if the deal.

I don't want to look for "excuses" for his behavior, but if he's on a manic episode of a bipolar depression, the that needs to be understood and treated directly.

I would think an appointment with a psychiatrist with you present is in order. IMHO, you cannot diagnose it, and neither can we.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Since he has admitted to the kissing and naked oral, it will be hard to formulate yes/no questions about that for the poly. You will have to ask questions like:

"Have you had sexual intercourse with anyone besides your wife since you have been married?"

"Besides AP1 and AP2, have you kissed any other woman besides your wife on the lips since you have been married?"

"Are you currently in contact for romantic and/or sexual reasons with any woman besides your wife?"

Etc.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you lied to your wife about any other instances of meeting or contacting other women?


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

Thanks for all the good questions for my H's poly. This morning I scheduled to have him tested for STD's and the nurse told me I need or should also be tested, so I scheduled appointment for myself. How embarrassing is this, that I have to go to the same doctor that I have been taking my children to since they were little, to get myself tested for STD"s. Never saw that happening.
H told me last night that this whor* that he was seeing lives right beside where I have been taking my two daughters for an activity that they each do twice a week. So that means that as I was sitting in my car in the parking lot my car actually was facing her home within a stones throw distance. He told me the whor* actually saw our daughter and told him our daughter was beautiful. I was like how does she even know what our daughter looks like? Then I asked him if he was in her house while I was outside in the parking lot next to her house and if he parked a street over so I couldn't see his truck and if he pointed our daughter out to her? He denies this of course.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

"Have you been with any other women besides me to whom you have pointed out, or introduced to, our children?"

Every time he opens his mouth, another good question pops out.

He's doing what most guilty people do - when they know a polygraph is imminent, they start blurting out truths, so you feel inundated and believe you've heard all of it, SO YOU WILL CANCEL THE POLYGRAPH.

It's often been said that the BEST benefit of a polygraph is the RIDE TO THE POLYGRAPH OFFICE because the cheater will start panicking and scrambling to avoid getting hooked up and give you TONS of good intel on the ride over.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> "Have you had sexual intercourse with anyone besides your wife since you have been married?"


Leave no room for him to pull a Bill Clinton-like redefinition of the terms. Ask specifically about each sort of activity that would bother you:

1) cell-phone calls
2) text messages
3) eye-gazing
4) hand holding
5) touching of private areas
6) HJ
7) BJ
8) him giving oral
9) PIV
10) exchanging photos, videos
...well, there's more that comes to my mind, but hopefully you get the point.

I'm sorry Ginger.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

Still getting question together for Poly. Your questions offered are all on my list.
He has blurted out more things since last post about the drug selling whor* He has taken her out of state and given her money to gamble, he has taken her out to dinner, taken her out to breakfast (at least 3 times, and one of times in my home town), he has taken her dinner to her apartment, he has taken her out for drinks at local bar, and taken her to run errands. He still claims no actual intercourse.
He has also admitted to a third woman he was pursuing that he actually went to her apartment and tried to have sex with her, but she actually was interested in dating him and never answered his calls after him trying to have sex with her.
He claims I know everything now and that he feels like a weight has been lifted off of him.
Still waiting for results from STD testing. Although the doctor did find a genital wart on him. Also H's blood pressure was very high.
He is begging now for me to put "us" back together. He is telling me he wants to be a great husband to me and a great father to our children. He said he wants to put me on a pedestal and make me number one in his life. How do you even start to believe someone that has constantly lied to you for the last 3 months?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Still getting question together for Poly. Your questions offered are all on my list.
> He has blurted out more things since last post about the drug selling whor* He has taken her out of state and given her money to gamble, he has taken her out to dinner, taken her out to breakfast (at least 3 times, and one of times in my home town), he has taken her dinner to her apartment, he has taken her out for drinks at local bar, and taken her to run errands. He still claims no actual intercourse.


:rofl:


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sweet Ginger said:


> He has also admitted to a third woman he was pursuing that he actually went to her apartment and tried to have sex with her, but she actually was interested in dating him and never answered his calls after him trying to have sex with her.
> He claims I know everything now and that he feels like a weight has been lifted off of him.


Translation:

_Now that I've told you everything, you can cancel the polygraph, ok?_

We told you he would do this. DO NOT CANCEL IT.


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## distraughtfromtexas (Apr 25, 2013)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## distraughtfromtexas (Apr 25, 2013)

Proceed with the polygraph, if he has nothing to hide he won't mind doing it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

I must admit, as a Brit I'm a little skeptical as to the whole idea of polygraphs... but I'm being won over. A total infidelity laxative by the looks of it.

I'll second Tunera - Don't cancel it.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

SG, maybe I am feeling fatalistic but what do you think that your chances of having a successful marriage are after all of this? Do you have any plans for what happens after the poly? If you catch him in a lie, then what? Is it game over? No more chances? I mean you've gone to a pretty great extent already...

Your husband claims that he took this OW a bunch of different places and gave her money...Did you ever notice him spending an inordinate amount of time away from home? (I mean he's been juggling 3 different relationships at least in a short period of time.) Did you ever notice something wrong with the bank accounts? I mean, I know that stranger things have happened. On the other hand, some of this sounds too far out of the realm of reality. Could he be a pathological liar? (She just so happens to live next to your daughter's activity place. Really!?!?! And why would he tell you what his sl**** OW thinks of your daughter? As if that is suppposed to make you feel better?) It's almost as if he TRYING to hurt you, almost sociopathically so.

SG, I think a good 90% of marriages can be saved, but I'm not sure why you want to save this one. I understand that you still love your husband. People don't simply fall out of love when they have been betrayed. But I honestly think that the loving thing to do, even for your husband, is to walk away from this drama right now.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Did the MD explain that genital warts are an STD, usually caused by HPV? So unless you have it, his wick has been dipping somewhere it shouldn't.
Let me ask you, do you believe him when he says he's "tried" to have intercourse, but couldn't? Would it matter after all he's admitted to?
Don't let him off the hook for the poly, unless you are done with the relationship anyway.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

The last three months?

Ginger, this isn't just an eruption out of nowhere. He's been dating other women. Really dating them. Many of them. Whether they are wh0res or not, they all have the same equipment and you are equally betrayed.

I think you're in the sort of shock that means that one more awful fact is just another thing to throw onto the bonfire. The hits keep coming and now you must be numb.

Definitely follow through with the polygraph because the threat of it seems to be truth serum for your H.

If it were me, though? I would throw. him. out.

(And thank the Lord that the weight is finally lifted off of him. I was really worried about him.)


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> (And thank the Lord that the weight is finally lifted off of him. I was really worried about him.)


:lol:


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Truth truly is stranger than fiction.....! THROW.HIM. OUT. Is absolutely right. What a stunaud!


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

SG, your just getting the tip of the iceberg, there's way more...













PS, don't let his tip anywhere near you, wart???


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

azteca1986 said:


> A total infidelity laxative by the looks of it.


Ooh, I love it! Can I use that?


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

turnera said:


> Ooh, I love it! Can I use that?


Of course, help yourself


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

SG,

I'm sorry there's be another turn for the worst. You'll get through this, and have a happier life on your terms. Might not seem like it now, but you will. People do. And you will.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

turnera said:


> Translation:
> 
> _Now that I've told you everything, you can cancel the polygraph, ok?_
> 
> We told you he would do this. DO NOT CANCEL IT.


I concure, DO NOT CANCEL THE POLY!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Oh, and prepare yourself for his anger when you tell him the poly is still on. He will try to anger you out of it and, when he figures that won't work, expect him to move out (so he can avoid it). And blame it on you. Just part of the script.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

Fledgling said:


> SG, maybe I am feeling fatalistic but what do you think that your chances of having a successful marriage are after all of this? Do you have any plans for what happens after the poly? If you catch him in a lie, then what? Is it game over? No more chances? I mean you've gone to a pretty great extent already...
> 
> Your husband claims that he took this OW a bunch of different places and gave her money...Did you ever notice him spending an inordinate amount of time away from home? (I mean he's been juggling 3 different relationships at least in a short period of time.) Did you ever notice something wrong with the bank accounts? I mean, I know that stranger things have happened. On the other hand, some of this sounds too far out of the realm of reality. Could he be a pathological liar? (She just so happens to live next to your daughter's activity place. Really!?!?! And why would he tell you what his sl**** OW thinks of your daughter? As if that is suppposed to make you feel better?) It's almost as if he TRYING to hurt you, almost sociopathically so.
> 
> SG, I think a good 90% of marriages can be saved, but I'm not sure why you want to save this one. I understand that you still love your husband. People don't simply fall out of love when they have been betrayed. But I honestly think that the loving thing to do, even for your husband, is to walk away from this drama right now.


Fled,
My plan and what I told him is if after the Poly if he does not pass, then it is game over.
The money thing you mentioned made me start asking him questions. His regular job the money goes directly in our account and I am the one that handles the bills, money etc. So we each have some cash weekly from this account. But, he does a side thing that he does 2 to 3 times a month and that he gets paid in cash. Upon questioning him, he has now admitted that he has been siphoning at least $ 50 out of it before he handed it to me, and he has been doing this from the beginning so that I would think that what he handed me was the actual amount he was paid. So he had built up quite the pile of "mad" money to spend as he pleased and I was none the wiser. Also, just to note, he has 0 dollars left in his mad money.
And I am positive that the whor* lives across from where my daughter's do their activity. Unfortunately their activity is in a bad location and the house where she resides is a big old house and it is known to rent out to people on the system and other low life. So I do not think he is lying about what he has told me so far.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

turnera said:


> Translation:
> 
> _Now that I've told you everything, you can cancel the polygraph, ok?_
> 
> We told you he would do this. DO NOT CANCEL IT.


I am not going to cancel the Poly.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

Pluto2 said:


> Did the MD explain that genital warts are an STD, usually caused by HPV? So unless you have it, his wick has been dipping somewhere it shouldn't.
> Let me ask you, do you believe him when he says he's "tried" to have intercourse, but couldn't? Would it matter after all he's admitted to?
> Don't let him off the hook for the poly, unless you are done with the relationship anyway.


Pluto,
Yes the MD did explain that and I also researched it more on the internet. And no I don't believe him.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

I realize that I can not cancel the Poly. H told me that I knew everything the other day, which included the third woman. Then two days later he tells me about a fourth woman that drove a truck at one of the spots he worked for two weeks. Within that time he had sit with her in her truck, hugged and also given her a quick kiss on the lips, and exchanged phone numbers. He admitted that he did call her outside of work to try to get things started but that she never returned his call. He didn't think I would want to know about this one since he didn't actually get together with her.
Then two more days later he tells me about siphoning money off the top of the side job that he gets paid cash, and that he has been doing that for years.
Today we will find out results on our blood test for STD's. I now have IC lined up for me, to start hopefully this week. H is calling today to set his up.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

SG,
The lies and deceit..........
Let's assume for the sake of argument that between not and the poly it pretty much all gets uncovered. I personally don't think it will, but let's pretend. Say he passes the poly, do you want to stay with a man who could engage in this level and extent of deception. That is not what a marriage is suppose to be. Where's your life-partner? Could you stay?


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Fled,
> My plan and what I told him is if after the Poly if he does not pass, then it is game over.
> The money thing you mentioned made me start asking him questions. His regular job the money goes directly in our account and I am the one that handles the bills, money etc. So we each have some cash weekly from this account. But, he does a side thing that he does 2 to 3 times a month and that he gets paid in cash. Upon questioning him, he has now admitted that he has been siphoning at least $ 50 out of it before he handed it to me, and he has been doing this from the beginning so that I would think that what he handed me was the actual amount he was paid. *So he had built up quite the pile of "mad" money to spend as he pleased and I was none the wiser. Also, just to note, he has 0 dollars left in his mad money.*
> And I am positive that the whor* lives across from where my daughter's do their activity. Unfortunately their activity is in a bad location and the house where she resides is a big old house and it is known to rent out to people on the system and other low life. So I do not think he is lying about what he has told me so far.


I am skeptical he has 0 dollars left in his mad money, but call me jaded 

IMHO, you need to make financial questions part of the polygraph. Like:

-- Do you have any credit card debts your wife does not know about?

--Do you have any debts your wife does not know about?

-- Do you have any money tucked away anywhere that your wife does not know about and/or cannot access?

-- Have you ever gambled illegally (like with a "bookie")?

Also, while I am at it:

-- Have you ever had any other STD or symptoms of STDs besides the one your wife is aware of.



Seems like you do have a lot of information, and it must be painful to know -- not sure you'd want to know more -- but, I'm guessing the STD came from the wh*re, and antler girl probably does not know about the wh*re, and she may or may not need to know about the fact he has been "carrying" and STD. Antler girl may really dislike you right now, I don't know, but if she were informed about the wh*re and the STD, she might be willing to give you yet another version of the truth about what he and she had done. Really, I'm not sure I want to put that idea in your head; maybe someone else will shoot it down if it is a really really bad idea (might lead to antler girl really exposing him at work, which might have bad repercusions on your money situation).

Wishing you better days ahead. You will get through this.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Sweet Ginger said:


> I now have IC lined up for me, to start hopefully this week.


Excellent!!!!!!! Please keep us posted on how you feel about the counselor you find.

I'm glad to hear you are taking care of you.


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## thesunwillcomeout (Jun 25, 2012)

Ginger, I haven't been posting but I've kept up on your posts in chunks. Poly's are useful, if anything just to cut them down to size. (Unfortunately I've had experience with it -- and it wasn't a warm fuzzy one). And now, because of that experience I've done a lot of research on the efficacy of poly's (as in lots of reading online and talking to local folk who've worked for places like the NSA, etc who employ poly's). Nothing in life is 100% when it comes to a device, but it'll cause truth to come out one way or another.

Please keep us posted. 

Honestly, one poster (was it Alte Dame) said something a while ago about your husband perhaps having a version of Turets (said in jest I'm sure) but really, I agree. His weird regurgetation of his sexual escapades is downright funky in it's dump. That must be extremely, extremely hard for you. I hope it's a stripping of his soul, but who knows? 

Rooting for you....


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

@Pluto - I have been thinking about that very thing. That if he passes the poly, how will I feel about the extent of damage that he has done to our marriage.

@Sky - I had my first appointment with IC. It is hard to say how I feel about the counselor from the first visit, maybe with second time next week I will get a better feel. It is a male counselor and I might have a hard time talking with him about some things. Then again do you go into detail with your counselors on what your WS did?

@Sunwillcomeout- I too wonder why he says some of the things he does tell me.

Well just to let everyone know both our blood test come back negative for everything. H still needs to get wart taken care of in the near future. My IC started this week and H's will hopefully start next week.

Here is a question that not sure what it means. My H has had someone dropping a white napkin by his truck door sometime in the wee hours of the morning. It has been pretty much everyday, with some skips in time, but has been going on for over a year. In light of all this other stuff coming out with my H, I can't help wonder if this is a symbol that someone is sending my H with some kind of a message. Does anyone know what a white napkin, (because it is always plain white), would represent?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Ginger, please!!!!

I groan for you every time I read an update from you.

A white napkin? He's got some signal system going with another woman. If you confront him with this, he will no doubt say that he meets an OW at a designated time, he "hugs her and gives her a quick kiss on the lips." He seems to think that trickling out his horrible truth will allow you some time between the trickles to absorb and move on.

The man is 60 years old. He has been doing this for a while. Now you say a year with the napkins. Please take it from one of the older posters here. Before you know it, he will have his health failing and you will be taking care of an old man who cheated on you and LIED to you for years.

This will be my last post on your thread. The only help I could ever give you is virtually holding your hand as you presented him with divorce papers and walked out the door. I wish you the strength to do that. You're married to a dog.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Sweet Ginger said:


> @Sky - I had my first appointment with IC. It is hard to say how I feel about the counselor from the first visit, maybe with second time next week I will get a better feel. It is a male counselor and I might have a hard time talking with him about some things. Then again do you go into detail with your counselors on what your WS did?


IMHO -

VERY important to find a counselor you can open up to and bare your hurting soul to. I have had a few counselors in my 47 years, and I've ALWAYS found myself choosing females because I felt like I could be more fully open to them compared to males. I cannot explain it, and it feels a bit sexist, but so what - if anything in this world is supposed to be all about me and my needs and quirks then IC would be.

Personally, I don't see how you could get much value out of IC if you couldn't talk about the details.

Once i found a counselor I trusted and felt comfortable with, I might be tempted to print out this thread and offer it to her to read as a quick way to cover much ground, so she can get past the info gathering and get to the helping part. YMMV.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Regarding the napkin, is there another potential OW within walking distance? Have you ever heard a car in the middle of the night?

Is there an English literature fan in your town? http://www.shmoop.com/othello/handkerchief-symbol.html


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

I agree with alte dame 100%. This all feels wrong and a bit off to me, ginger. How do you know this napkin things has been going on for a year? If you noticed it some time ago you may have been able to spare yourself some of this garbage by confronting him sooner. Of course hindsight is always 20/20 but something daily for a whole year? And it's still going on despite the fact that you have told him you are on to him? That's pretty ballsy, not to mention stupid. alte dame is correct. You need to leave. I know that one does not simply fall out of love with someone overnight but this is all too much. I've seen people people come back from infedelity but I have never seen any couple come back from serial infidelity with multiple people like this. 

As was said earlier, truth can sometimes be stranger than fiction, but I just don't see how all of this can be the truth. Do I believe that he cheated on you? Yes. But there is alot of implausible stuff that I can't wrap my mind around. 

Please don't be offended by what I am about to say but this thread has garnered you alot of attention and advice, which while you seem to have taken some of it to heart, the main advice, leave, has been all but ignored. And as has been pointed out the stories and "admissions" become more and more crazy. Could this be an instance where your husband knows you'll never believe him so he will lie and manipulate you because that's exactly what you want to believe of him anyway? Are you looking for ways to hurt your husband or might you be trying to hold onto him by playing his game of deciet? 

Personally I get the feeling like we are all being played. If your husband is really this skilled at crazy making where we are all shaking _our_ heads and have run out of ideas and advice then this _can't_ be good for you to stay tangled up in it.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

Fledgling said:


> I agree with alte dame 100%. This all feels wrong and a bit off to me, ginger. How do you know this napkin things has been going on for a year? If you noticed it some time ago you may have been able to spare yourself some of this garbage by confronting him sooner. Of course hindsight is always 20/20 but something daily for a whole year? And it's still going on despite the fact that you have told him you are on to him? That's pretty ballsy, not to mention stupid. alte dame is correct. You need to leave. I know that one does not simply fall out of love with someone overnight but this is all too much. I've seen people people come back from infedelity but I have never seen any couple come back from serial infidelity with multiple people like this.
> 
> As was said earlier, truth can sometimes be stranger than fiction, but I just don't see how all of this can be the truth. Do I believe that he cheated on you? Yes. But there is alot of implausible stuff that I can't wrap my mind around.
> 
> ...


The thing about the napkin was I thought it was something with one of my three teenager's friends. Because when we first noticed the napkin it had blown around and we just thought it was one of the kids friends being stupid. But then it was more clear that it was always by my H's truck. I seem to always be a step behind. I didn't think to look at the text messages until after he erased them, and I just thought about this napkin thing the other night just because I wasn't thinking about it before this because I thought it was something with the kids. I do realize that I will never be able to trust him again. But I feel like after the poly I will have what I need to take a step. The reason I asked the question about the napkin was because when I searched the internet for an answer, one thing that came up was color codes for hankies with gay men, and I guess I was just seeing if any of you would think a white napkin could be a replacement for a white hankie. I know I over think things a lot and it probably wouldn't be this, but ever since this started the things I've heard from my H seem to have gotten worse. And I hope none of you feel played, if it wasn't for you I wouldn't have set him out the first time, also I would have never used the VAR in his truck. I know I am a slow mover, but financially I have to really think about this. Right now we have two of our children in college, one out of state, and I really have to think about what would happen there also. Also I have zero money of my own. I am also hoping my IC will assist me with steps to make a move. And as for my husband I wonder if he is not seriously mentally ill.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> Ginger, please!!!!
> 
> I groan for you every time I read an update from you.
> 
> ...


I have thought about the part of having to take care of him as he gets older,after what he has done to me and it makes me feel sick. I do thank you for all the advice that you have offered.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Ginger,

I don't feel played. One thing I've noticed about this place is people ( myself included) can get frustrated. But, it boggles my mind every time someone says an OP isn't making the recommended steps fast enough. It's informative, but rarely informative about an OP.

I'm sorry about the financial constraints you have.

I'm glad you are pursuing IC, because if C is good, they will guide you and nudge you, but still respect and understand your need to know each step you take is a good one.

In my parents case, I recall many nights there'd be a phone call, but if Mom or one if us kids answered, there'd be silence on the other end. Was tha an affair clue? To this day, I'm not sure. Point is, in retrospect, sometimes things we dismissed we shouldn't have. But, so what, that's not a flaw in anyone of us - just fallout from the fact aquiring truth is hard. 

Anyways, hang in there. I'd make a psychiatric exam part of the near future for H.

I'd also be tempted to catch the napkin dropper in the act. With technology, that is pretty easy to do. Ask if you want more info.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> I'd also be tempted to catch the napkin dropper in the act. With technology, that is pretty easy to do. Ask if you want more info.


I coulnd't resist the temptation either. Even old fashion way: tons of coffee and binoculars!


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

My thoughts on the napkin:

Well, it's a sign. What it signifies, I'm not sure. But knowing your husband, as we've come to know more about him these past few weeks... well. It's a signal for some kind of liaison. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume so.

I don't feel played. I think it's bang out of order to suggest that of you. You're the one being played, Sweet Ginger.

I do hope _alte dame_ keeps posting on this thread as she's one of the brightest, most insightful posters on TAM. If she has had enough, well, that's a sign too.

Each new post from you SG, each new revelation, leaves me more bewildered than before. I can't imagine what you're go through. My heart goes out to you. It's come to the point where I can only suggest you extricate yourself from this mess. Sorry.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I'm sorry, azteca & all. I blew a mini-gasket because I want so badly for Ginger to stand up for herself. I know she is trying and doing her best. I truly believe, though, that the only thing her H will understand at this point is being shown the door. He has a sweet, trusting, loving wife whom he has sorely mistreated. It's always possible that this is a mental problem of some kind, but even so, he needs a very serious wake-up call. He has a genital wart, a symptom of an STD & still maintains that he hasn't had extramarital sex.

Maybe this is just a woman thing, but I've really wanted to get a posse together and go kidnap Ginger.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

I should clarify. I don't mean Ginger making us feel played. I mean_ him_. I feel played because Ginger feels played! He keeps ripping the rug out from under her and throws new things at her to keep her off balance.

As to her not taking actions on suggestions...Ginger, you are taking adivice and you are working on things that is clear. But you have to be honest with yourself. Do you ever think "If it wasn't for finances I'd be outta here so fast his head would spin?" If you have then, imho, you are putting yourself through torture (polys, VARS) for no good reason. Money (or lack thereof) should never keep you trapped in a marriage that is filled with so much heartache. 

Now as to hindsight being 20/20 yes that is true. No one can blame you for not picking up on things. What I am encouraging you to do is not be "willfully blind" because you feel trapped and are avoiding certain truths. The napking thing you said has happened for about a year. I'm not sure you could really miss something that frequent unless you were unwilling to see it for what it was.

On the flip side what does it say that it is entirely possible that it was just a napkin? Now that you are willing to believe anything he says or does what's not to say that you are seeing something that isn't there (has it really been a year?) and causing yourself unnecessary heartache? The fact that this relationship is so toxic that this might be happening ought to send you signals.

Also I think you really need to put divorce as the primary action in dealing with this. When it is so low on your list of choices it gives him the upper hand and makes you very reactionary. He needs to react to you. Polys and VARS while having there uses are not the same thing as divorce and the finality of what that means.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I assume it's a paper napkin. My first thought is it's from a bar he and she (whoever she is) go to - you know, the napkins from the drinks they have together.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

If it is a signaling mechanism, then it is from someone who comes home late at night, and drops the napkin to say "I am available today" for him to see in the morning. Just speculation.

But, not knowing the layout of your driveway, it seems like a rather risky signaling mechanism -- having to come so close to the truck.

It's just weird. Sorry this is your life at the moment.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

Acabado said:


> I coulnd't resist the temptation either. Even old fashion way: tons of coffee and binoculars!


I have thought of setting my alarm to get up at 1:00 am and actually being in my vehicle or H's truck. I'm thinking the napkin is dropped closer to morning, since my teens have never seen anything when they come in really late at night and the napkin would be there the next morning.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Does your H know you are aware of these napkin drops? What's his explanation about them?


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

Fledgling said:


> I should clarify. I don't mean Ginger making us feel played. I mean_ him_. I feel played because Ginger feels played! He keeps ripping the rug out from under her and throws new things at her to keep her off balance.
> 
> As to her not taking actions on suggestions...Ginger, you are taking adivice and you are working on things that is clear. But you have to be honest with yourself. Do you ever think "If it wasn't for finances I'd be outta here so fast his head would spin?" If you have then, imho, you are putting yourself through torture (polys, VARS) for no good reason. Money (or lack thereof) should never keep you trapped in a marriage that is filled with so much heartache.
> 
> ...


To give you a perspective on my personality, my mother always told me of all her children, I was and am her Pollyanna child. I also don't want anybody think that I am all good either, because I am far from perfect.
As for the timing of the napkin I do know that it has been over a year, because my child that is in his first year of college was at home going to high school when it was happening. He thought it was one of his friends and I remember he wanted to stay up and catch the person but he had so many other things going on at the time that he never did.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

turnera said:


> I assume it's a paper napkin. My first thought is it's from a bar he and she (whoever she is) go to - you know, the napkins from the drinks they have together.


It is a paper napkin, but it is not like those little napkins that are placed under your drinks at a bar. It is more like the square ones that you would use in your home.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> If it is a signaling mechanism, then it is from someone who comes home late at night, and drops the napkin to say "I am available today" for him to see in the morning. Just speculation.
> 
> But, not knowing the layout of your driveway, it seems like a rather risky signaling mechanism -- having to come so close to the truck.
> 
> It's just weird. Sorry this is your life at the moment.


My H's truck is parked right along the side of the road. So all the person would have to do is slow down enough to drop it. My vehicle is the one actually in the driveway.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> Does your H know you are aware of these napkin drops? What's his explanation about them?


Yes he is aware of them. When it first started happening we all discussed it as a family, as to why someone was doing it. I know he won't tell me if he does know who is doing this napkin dropping.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

I'd add the napkin dropping to the poly.

I would also add interactions with other men to the poly as well.

When is the poly?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sweet Ginger said:


> It is a paper napkin, but it is not like those little napkins that are placed under your drinks at a bar. It is more like the square ones that you would use in your home.


 Then it's a local woman who lives in your neighborhood, probably your street, letting him know the mornings that her husband will be away so he can come over. 

The coast is clear.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

Well it has been just about a month since I posted anything on here. I hope everyone is not disappointed but my H did not take the Poly. It wasn't because he wouldn't do it. It was because the money I had saved I felt I had to let my daughter use for a camp that she really wanted to go to this summer. Since she has never been and this would be her last opportunity I could not say no.
This last month also included lots of IC for me and MC for us. Today I met with a Psychologist to determine if I need to have any meds. He seems to think I should be on a very low dose of anti-depressants until I have this whole mess behind me. Unsure if I want to start on medication or not. Also, MC is wanting H to go to IC. MC seems to think H has the ability to compartmentalize his dirty deeds, just like Pres. Clinton seemed to have done.
My H has told me nothing new within the last month. I have used the VAR and have caught nothing on it. But at the same time the MC agrees with me, that none of what he has told me makes any sense at all. He claims he doesn't know why he did all these things. H did schedule wart removal, but could not get in until July. I have not been having sex with him, much to his dismay. 
My thoughts are now going towards making an exit plan. Not sure if I want to separate, but after wart removal I want to be ready to do what I want for myself. I need money now so, I am selling anything I can find in the house worth some value on ebay. Also, my IC is also helping me with getting back in the job market.
From the look on our MC face when we talk about the things my husband has done, leads me to believe that she is wondering why I am still with him. So my question today is, has anybody that is married to a serial cheater ever reconciled? I would like views from both WS and BS.
Thanks in advance for any help you can give me.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

SweetGinger,

It is nice to hear from you, and to know you are getting help and support from IC and MC.

Not that it matters, but I would have made the same choice for camp instead of poly.

I have no idea personally about the prospects for successfully reconciling with a serial cheater. There was a thread started by TornNBroken or something like that where a few argued that reconciling with a serial cheater rarely succeeds, but they new of one successful case on TAM.

I wish you and those who counsel you understood what motivated your husband to take these great risks of hurting you and your kids, and what he lacked inside himself that let him do it. Did the MC or your IC offer any opinion about his mental health?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

From what I know, Ginger, a reconciliation with a serial cheater has a very low chance of success. If it can work at all, your H would have to be totally transparent, come completely clean and really want to change. Is any of that possible? What is he saying now?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

There's a woman here who's still with a man who cheated on her for at least a decade with many, many women. 

She is a basket case, trying to align her self respect with what he did to her.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> SweetGinger,
> 
> It is nice to hear from you, and to know you are getting help and support from IC and MC.
> 
> ...


Sky, Thanks for your reply. One thing the MC did say was she wondered if H was unable to have any kind of deep relationship with anyone. Which would include me and also his family.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> From what I know, Ginger, a reconciliation with a serial cheater has a very low chance of success. If it can work at all, your H would have to be totally transparent, come completely clean and really want to change. Is any of that possible? What is he saying now?


Alte,
Thanks for the reply. I don't think he has come completely clean. When we talk about it with MC, she agrees with me that what he is saying about the one affair doesn't make any sense. He claims he was just trying to have sex with OW, but that both times he tried he was unable to perform. What doesn't make sense is this was over a 2 year time period and it is hard to believe that he only attempted being physical with OW only twice. He said after second attempt the OW wanted money, because he was wasting her time. When MC asks him why he would keep going back if he wasn't going to pay money and if she wasn't going to let him keep trying. He answers that he has no clue why he would keep returning to her and buying her things and taking her out to breakfast. He says he was a fool and that he has stopped all this behavior.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

turnera said:


> There's a woman here who's still with a man who cheated on her for at least a decade with many, many women.
> 
> She is a basket case, trying to align her self respect with what he did to her.


Turnera, Is this woman's story still on her that I could read it. Sometimes I feel like I could end up a basket case. My IC has put me on a mild anti-depressant, which I just started taking two days ago. So not sure if it is working yet.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Did he ever explain the white napkins, and/or did it come up in MC? Don't feel obliged to tell us what that was all about, but, if you still don't know then yes he has not come clean.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Turnera, Is this woman's story still on her that I could read it. Sometimes I feel like I could end up a basket case. My IC has put me on a mild anti-depressant, which I just started taking two days ago. So not sure if it is working yet.


 Her name is Poppy.

Ginger, PLEASE get the money for the poly. NOW. Borrow the money, do whatever you have to do. The longer you wait, the more chance you will sweep it under the rug, and you will end up like every other woman who won't leave a man and has to settle for being her husband's second, third, fourth choice.

And if you are still getting the napkins, for God's sake, buy a video camera without telling him and have it installed so you can find out who he's cheating with.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

There are weatherproof video cams marketed to outdoorsmen (hunters?) at sporting good stores that have night vision and record only when something is in view (like an animal).


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

And what's his story about the genital wart? How does he explain it?


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> Did he ever explain the white napkins, and/or did it come up in MC? Don't feel obliged to tell us what that was all about, but, if you still don't know then yes he has not come clean.


PieceOfSky,

No he never did explain the napkins. It came up at our last session with MC last week and he acted like he had no clue. And I did tell the MC that I had woke up at 3 am one morning and set up camp in my car, but that that night there was no napkin. H did not know I had done this and he seemed surprised that I actually was trying to catch the person. For two days after that session there were napkins beside his truck, but for the last four days there has been no napkin.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

turnera said:


> Her name is Poppy.
> 
> Ginger, PLEASE get the money for the poly. NOW. Borrow the money, do whatever you have to do. The longer you wait, the more chance you will sweep it under the rug, and you will end up like every other woman who won't leave a man and has to settle for being her husband's second, third, fourth choice.
> 
> And if you are still getting the napkins, for God's sake, buy a video camera without telling him and have it installed so you can find out who he's cheating with.


Turnera,
I am already saving again for poly. I do think H is not going to confess to anything more without the poly.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> There are weatherproof video cams marketed to outdoorsmen (hunters?) at sporting good stores that have night vision and record only when something is in view (like an animal).


PieceOfSky,
Thanks for the info on the video cams.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> And what's his story about the genital wart? How does he explain it?


Alte Dame,
H says that the wart has been there forever, as in before we were married. I KNOW it has not, but he swears that it has been.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Sorry for all of this, Ginger.

Your H is a liar whose lies are finally unravelling. I am really sorry about it all. From your description, he has seemed very odd, almost like someone who is losing his cognitive abilities. Whatever it is, it's been going on for a while & you don't deserve to be lied to and cheated on.

I would start to wrap my mind around what is probably the inevitable. It seems clear that he will fail the poly. What is your plan if/when that happens?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

He's a habitual liar, Ginger. Is that all you're worth?


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> Sorry for all of this, Ginger.
> 
> Your H is a liar whose lies are finally unravelling. I am really sorry about it all. From your description, he has seemed very odd, almost like someone who is losing his cognitive abilities. Whatever it is, it's been going on for a while & you don't deserve to be lied to and cheated on.
> 
> I would start to wrap my mind around what is probably the inevitable. It seems clear that he will fail the poly. What is your plan if/when that happens?


Alte Dame,

Yesterday H was unable to attend MC because of work. I went by myself for the first time. Since this was the first time that we were able to talk without him, she was able to give me her opinions on H. She told me that she thinks he is still lying to me about what exactly happened with the wh0re, mainly because none of it makes any sense. She said there are probably other things he is still hiding. With that alone, not to mention his serious drinking problem, she is telling me I need to have a plan B in order and to do it soon. She said I need to think about where I want to be in five years, what are my values and how do I want to live my life. Yesterday was also my birthday, and all I could think about was where is my life going.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

turnera said:


> He's a habitual liar, Ginger. Is that all you're worth?


Turnera,
No it is not all that I'm worth. I just have been put on the back burner a lot of times in my life, with the worst times being done by my H, that I find it hard to stand up for myself. But I am learning. 

Yesterday for my birthday my three kids, (2 teens and 21 yr. old), sang to me and then us four did a group hug. I do know in my kids eyes that they think I am worth something, and that is what is keeping me from falling into a depressed mood.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mine has told me the same thing, several times. Not for infidelity, but for his huge dysfunctionalness. She wishes I would leave him.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Turnera,
> No it is not all that I'm worth. I just have been put on the back burner a lot of times in my life, with the worst times being done by my H, that I find it hard to stand up for myself. But I am learning.
> 
> Yesterday for my birthday my three kids, (2 teens and 21 yr. old), sang to me and then us four did a group hug. I do know in my kids eyes that they think I am worth something, and that is what is keeping me from falling into a depressed mood.


If he didn't do anything for you, I suggest you go to his wallet, take out a credit card, and go do the town. Without him. On his dime. that will help you feel worth something.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

You really are too sweet. Please add a lil more ginger. Stop the crap and get a better situation. No one deserves the BS you've been through.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Alte Dame,
> 
> Yesterday H was unable to attend MC because of work. I went by myself for the first time. Since this was the first time that we were able to talk without him, she was able to give me her opinions on H. She told me that she thinks he is still lying to me about what exactly happened with the wh0re, mainly because none of it makes any sense. She said there are probably other things he is still hiding. With that alone, not to mention his serious drinking problem, she is telling me I need to have a plan B in order and to do it soon. She said I need to think about where I want to be in five years, what are my values and how do I want to live my life. Yesterday was also my birthday, and all I could think about was where is my life going.


I think your counselor is very good. The question about where you want to be in five years is so helpful in getting people blasted out of their limbo.

You've been married for a long time. Is your H's infidelity something that you've only noticed in the last few years? He sounds like a serial cheater. Have you had concerns throughout your marriage?

(And try to get some help to catch whoever is dropping that napkin if it is still going on. If it has stopped, you can assume that your H talked to her to get a different system in place.)

(And last, but not least - Happy Birthday! I hope your next birthday is a better one for you.)


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Of course you're worth something, SweetGinger! That much is clear from what your posts here have revealed about yourself.

I'm glad to hear you have some loving kids.

Happy Birthday. I'm confident you will have many, and much happier, ones ahead!


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> I think your counselor is very good. The question about where you want to be in five years is so helpful in getting people blasted out of their limbo.
> 
> You've been married for a long time. Is your H's infidelity something that you've only noticed in the last few years? He sounds like a serial cheater. Have you had concerns throughout your marriage?
> 
> ...


Alte Dame,
I do feel like I have been in limbo since DD. I didn't notice anything until I heard him on the phone, towards the end of last year, telling the one he worked with that he loved her. I didn't find the voice mail from her until January of this year. Then in April is when the phone call from the wh0re came about. I was totally trusting up until then. H did admit that when we were first married he would slow dance with a women after work as a bar tender, (he had a part time job for short time period). They would put music on and slow dance during clean up. Then he said they would go out to his truck and smoke weed together. So I do consider him as a serial cheater. 
As for the napkin one was out there this morning. First time in a weeks time. I plan on sitting up camp tonight.
Thanks for the birthday wishes!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

A videocam would be a lot easier.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> Of course you're worth something, SweetGinger! That much is clear from what your posts here have revealed about yourself.
> 
> I'm glad to hear you have some loving kids.
> 
> Happy Birthday. I'm confident you will have many, and much happier, ones ahead!


Thanks you for the positive words and the birthday wishes!


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

turnera said:


> A videocam would be a lot easier.


I know and I might have to resort to that, if nothing happens tonight. Tomorrow is the first day I won't have to get up early in a long time. So I can be out there for several hours and come back in before H gets up and then when he leaves I will sleep in.


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## ALWAYS TRYING (Mar 2, 2013)

Sweet Ginger. Just wanted to give you a hug.

I didn't read your whole thread. But you really need to do more to shake him up. I have been there, I'm still here fighting. If you want to stay married you need to show him that what he did hurt you so much that your willing to leave. 

I have tried several times. The last one was the last one. All the others I was not as strong as I am now. I have been married 31 years and this is the last time I will fight for this man. 

You still have things he has not told you. Maybe you don't need to know everything. But he is hoping you will rug sweep and move on. I did that for years. Just knowing some of the facts is enough to get him to say what you need to hear and do what you need him to do.

I hope I have made some sence. I will be here cheering you on as you go forward.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I just wish you were willing to give him up, in order to get the truth. You're worth more than what you're settling for.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

ALWAYS TRYING said:


> Sweet Ginger. Just wanted to give you a hug.
> 
> I didn't read your whole thread. But you really need to do more to shake him up. I have been there, I'm still here fighting. If you want to stay married you need to show him that what he did hurt you so much that your willing to leave.
> 
> ...


Always,
You are right in thinking he does want me to rug sweep. He goes about his day as if nothing ever happened. Mean while I am thinking about it always. Especially when I am driving the kids in the car and any "love gone bad" song comes on, and you know there are a lot of "love gone bad" songs.
Did your H tell you everything each time? I'm not sure why I want to know everything, because I know it is going to hurt me even more.
I do want him to know that he hurt me to the point that I might not ever be able to go forward with him.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

turnera said:


> I just wish you were willing to give him up, in order to get the truth. You're worth more than what you're settling for.


Turnera,
Believe me I don't want to settle, especially when I think that he still hasn't come clean with me yet. And I am saving for the the poly.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

SG,
He wants you to forgive and (quickly) forget. Remind him that cannot happen unless you know what there is to forgive. Until then, forgiveness can't happen. If he gives you the same wholly story, well, you have to be tough and tell him that is not enough and walk out of the M. Otherwise, you will never have a real R, or a real marriage.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I just want to remind you that I can name at least 5 men I know who regularly cheat on their wives, think nothing of it, and say whatever their wives want to hear, to keep them from leaving.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

Pluto2 said:


> SG,
> He wants you to forgive and (quickly) forget. Remind him that cannot happen unless you know what there is to forgive. Until then, forgiveness can't happen. If he gives you the same wholly story, well, you have to be tough and tell him that is not enough and walk out of the M. Otherwise, you will never have a real R, or a real marriage.


You are so right Pluto. I do feel like we are not in a real R.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

I am going on a trip for about 4 days. I am worried that this will give WH free fun time to do what he wants. I am going to try not to think about him cheating, instead I am going to give a lot of thought about what I need to do with my marriage. WH wants me to go and promises me he will be good, and that he is done with all that stuff. Not sure how I would keep tabs on him anyway.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

VARs in the house?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ask a friend to follow him.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Or use HIS money to hire a PI.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

or tell him you don't believe him


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

Thanks everyone, all good ideas. I do have the VAR's ready. I am going to totally enjoy myself on this trip.


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