# The wife wants to have an "open relationship"...



## Kazama

Hello; wow, I am super frustrated...going to vent here if you folks don't mind.

about a month ago, my wife tells me she is super unhappy with me. She pretty voiced she is not happy with almost every attribute about me, except i'm a great father.

She says she does not know if she's in love with me anymore, and wants us to see other people. at first i agree out of confusion, then a couple weeks later I tell her no way.

Then a couple weeks later she tells me she has been facebooking\talking\txting an old boyfriend, which started a couple months ago.

I'm thinking ok, the complaints she has about me are all regular problems people go through within a 10 year marriage, but throw in an ex-boyfriend and all the sudden these complains about me are really excuses to get away...hmmmmm.

So we go to counseling and on the first session we establish that we need to spend more quality time together, and the counselor says she needs to stop chatting with her x boyfriend.

i felt things were looking better after the first session, and then when we meet the counselor again, she admits she is still facebooking the dude.

When I attempt to find out what exactly she wants to do, she says she doesn't know, and needs time.

This is killing me because i don't want to just give up.

*1/24/2014 10:22AM UPDATE*

I confronted her last night. basically said that it's not going to work out if you keep talking with your x-boyfriend.

Her behavior is inappropriate and as much as I was trying to ignore it; I don't want to end up despising her. so yeah, I did not want to have it drag on anymore.

in the end, she said she didn't feel the same about us; and wants to be single.

but basically she is not willing to cooperate and give us another fair shot (by not talking with her x). she keeps bringing up past events and details that upset her...which feels like reasons to distance herself from me.

So now we are discussing terms of separation. *sigh

*1/28/2014 10:00AM Update:*

So I mentioned that I'm not moving out, and we have pretty much talked about her moving out.

I just now read up a little on the 180 no mr nice guy. pretty slick set of rules. will tighten up my behavior based on the guide(s).

since the talk last week where I was set on separating she is now "confused". and is apparently doing some soul searching.

All the meantime, I have started sleeping in another room, and we have broken up the week where she has our daughter half the week and I the other.

it's weird because she still sets up lunches and dinner outings, and all I can think about right now is running away from her as far as possible.

the question is, should I set a timeline for her to vacate the house? example: suggest to her that she has a month to be confused, and then she either needs to be on my team or start actively looking for a place to stay?

*9/4/2014 12:34PM Update:*

Wanted to come back and thank everyone for all the support!

1. I ended up hanging in there and followed advice of the "no more nice guy" material.
2. Went to a couple sessions of marriage counseling, which also helped a bit.
3. Luckily all of her friends were on my side, and had a ton of support in that aspect. Thank goodness, as i thought i come off kind of like a jerk in their eyes...heh
4. I pretty much gave up my hobbies so we could share a common hobby of endurance training (running/triathlons)
5. Also luckily the other guy turned out to be a huge jerk off. Ended up asking her to borrow money!

I do not suspect that the two of them ever actually met up; that would set me off in another direction. I trust the answers she gives me, and besides, the dude lives five hours away, and she is way busy to be able to sneak off.

But it came down to asking her to step up and cut ties....stop talking to the dude, or we are done. She agreed to cease and desist...and we have been working on the relationship since. And since then I truly believe she is back in love with me.


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## John Lee

I would tell her "You are welcome to an open relationship, but not one that includes me."

If she says yes, that's what she wants, she was already out the door and there was nothing you can do. At least you've preserved some self-respect. Agreeing to what she wants is a trap.


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## A Bit Much

It's clear she's not going to give up the EA she's having. That leaves you and what is in your control.

I know you don't want to give up, so continue the counseling to help you to make clear choices. She really needs an ultimatum, but lean on the advice of the counselor before doing that.


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## Married but Happy

Open relationships don't work when they start out from a baseline of problems. Then, they are usually just bridges to finding someone new to replace you. Only when the relationship is strong and secure and communication is excellent do open relationships stand a good chance of success - and both have to be fully on board with the choice.

I think you can demand that she make a choice to work on the marriage, including MC, else you will file for divorce. That may provide the leverage and incentive to work on the problems and resolve them - one way or another. If she doesn't agree, or doens't fulfill her commitments, file - you can always withdraw it if/when she comes around.


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## Caribbean Man

You need to insist that she go no contact with this ex boyfriend.

It was the boyfriend that got her in that position in the first place.
She contacted him long before you found actually found out.
You cannot solve a problem doing the same thing that got you int that problem in the first place.

Tell her it's either the boyfriend goes or she goes , but you aren't prepared to sleep with her and her boyfriend.


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## MrK

Go for it.


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## LongWalk

Read the threads of Bagdon and GutPunch.

Don't talk to your wife about anything except your kids and the bills. Be polite. Give off a cheerful vibe. You are going to survive and flourish without her.

Pick up standard divorce papers and see if you can work out a settlement for divorce without wasting a lot of money on lawyers.

Go to the gym and get in super shape. Change your haircut. Get some smart duds.


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## treyvion

Caribbean Man said:


> You need to insist that she go no contact with this ex boyfriend.
> 
> It was the boyfriend that got her in that position in the first place.
> She contacted him long before you found actually found out.
> You cannot solve a problem doing the same thing that got you int that problem in the first place.
> 
> Tell her it's either the boyfriend goes or she goes , but you aren't prepared to sleep with her and her boyfriend.


My eyes got as big as saucers.


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## treyvion

LongWalk said:


> Read the threads of Bagdon and GutPunch.
> 
> Don't talk to your wife about anything except your kids and the bills. Be polite. Give off a cheerful vibe. You are going to survive and flourish without her.


Don't force the vibe. Just do your 180 and add some things in your life that are very fun for you.



LongWalk said:


> Pick up standard divorce papers and see if you can work out a settlement for divorce without wasting a lot of money on lawyers.
> 
> Go to the gym and get in super shape. Change your haircut. Get some smart duds.


These last items will let you feel better about yourself.


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## Mrs. T

It sounds like she wants out and in order to save face is putting it all on you, making it seem that you are lacking in some way gives her an easy reason for connecting with an old boyfriend. Cheating is just around the corner unless of course she can get your permission by agreeing to the "open relationship". DON'T do it! Show her the door. She'll soon find that the grass isn't always greener, and when she does it'll be too late.


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## A Bit Much

I think between that couple of weeks of you agreeing to her proposition and then the regret of doing so, your wife may have escalated her affair. 

She wants your permission to have this other relationship, and it will give her a clear conscience if you are having a fling too.


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## Kazama

what's crazy is that this dude is in a city that's 5 hours away, and he's tied to the city because he's divorced and has a kid there as well.

my best assesment is that I think she's going through some mid-life crisis.
Would really hate to give her an ultimatum right in this state, as she will likely choose freedom (in my best assessment).


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## Married but Happy

Kazama said:


> what's crazy is that this dude is in a city that's 5 hours away, and he's tied to the city because he's divorced and has a kid there as well.
> 
> my best assesment is that I think she's going through some mid-life crisis.
> *Would really hate to give her an ultimatum right in this state, as she will likely choose freedom* (in my best assessment).


Why would that be a bad thing? It _could_ be the best thing that will happen to you for the rest of your life!


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## John Lee

Let's put it this way: ultimatum = 50/50 she walks.
No ultimatum = 95/5 she cheats.


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## WyshIknew

I wonder how she'd feel if you had a chance at some other woman?

I've seen a number of stories on here where one spouse has their eye on somebody and wants the other spouses permission. As soon as the boot is on the other foot it doesn't seem so much fun.

She is having or will have a PA with this ex boyfriend and merely wants a rubber stamp to ease her conscience.


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## Kazama

first of all, thanks for all the replies!!! i didn't expect to see so much activity.



Married but Happy said:


> Why would that be a bad thing? It _could_ be the best thing that will happen to you for the rest of your life!


well because despite her insanity for the last couple months, i still want her to be my wife. I am just hoping the madness is temporary. Would hate for things to end prematurely and make the biggest mistake of both our lives.

my game plan is to attempt to work with her, and if she wants to end things; she will have to be the one to walk out the door.

i do beleive she is honest with me, and she would tell me if she is in love with the other guy, or has cheated on me.


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## ConanHub

She needs a wake up call! You need to distance yourself from her and make it VERY CLEAR that she has a lot to lose here!

She is a cake eater. 

She needs to feel some pain for her behavior or she will continue acting sh!tty.
Don't try to make it better for her until she is broken out of her "fog" and is truly remorseful.

What she had was an affair and you need to react accordingly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## treyvion

Married but Happy said:


> Why would that be a bad thing? It _could_ be the best thing that will happen to you for the rest of your life!


Yes it could be the BEST thing that ever happened to you.


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## treyvion

Kazama said:


> first of all, thanks for all the replies!!! i didn't expect to see so much activity.
> 
> 
> 
> well because despite her insanity for the last couple months, i still want her to be my wife. I am just hoping the madness is temporary. Would hate for things to end prematurely and make the biggest mistake of both our lives.
> 
> my game plan is to attempt to work with her, and if she wants to end things; she will have to be the one to walk out the door.
> 
> i do beleive she is honest with me, and she would tell me if she is in love with the other guy, or has cheated on me.


I'm glad you recognize it as insanity, and her mind will construct rational ways of making it happen.

Why not see a maritial counselor and someone in the church experienced with maritial problems?


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## Kazama

ConanHub said:


> She needs a wake up call! You need to distance yourself from her and make it VERY CLEAR that she has a lot to lose here!
> 
> She is a cake eater.
> 
> She needs to feel some pain for her behavior or she will continue acting sh!tty.
> Don't try to make it better for her until she is broken out of her "fog" and is truly remorseful.
> 
> What she had was an affair and you need to react accordingly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


nice Conan.

a couple days ago, i told her that I finally looked up her x-boyfriend on facebook. she got super aggervated/rude with me and fell silent.

she recenlty has been describing her dream guy (paul walker) which looks nothing like me. Wow, and her exboyfriend somewhat physically resembels our late friend mr. walker. She asked me "what does paul walker have that i don't have?" 
I wish i was making this up, but trust me...i am not. Wow.


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## Kazama

treyvion said:


> I'm glad you recognize it as insanity, and her mind will construct rational ways of making it happen.
> 
> Why not see a maritial counselor and someone in the church experienced with maritial problems?


we have gone to two counseling sessions. we established that she wants to work things out, but is not willing to halt communications with her boyfriend. which really means, she is not 100% into the healing proccess.


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## A Bit Much

Paul Walker (RIP) is dead and doesn't have a wife who has clearly lost her mind with this open relationship talk. THAT'S what he has.


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## treyvion

Kazama said:


> we have gone to two counseling sessions. we established that she wants to work things out, but is not willing to halt communications with her boyfriend. which really means, she is not 100% into the healing proccess.


She doesn't understand why this JUST CANNOT work in the way she thinks it will?

If she persists, I would let her go be with him, go get on with my life, start and complete the divorce.


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## Tall Average Guy

Kazama said:


> my game plan is to attempt to work with her, and if she wants to end things; she will have to be the one to walk out the door.


What is there to work with? She is not in love with you (her words) and is chatting with her ex-boyfriend. She wants an open marriage. She pretty clearly wants out, so give that to her. 



> i do beleive she is honest with me, and she would tell me if she is in love with the other guy, or has cheated on me.


Where is the evidence that she has been honest? she chatted with her ex for a couple of months without telling you. She wanted an open relationship without telling you that she had a specific guy in mind. She continues contact with him without telling you. So where is this honesty?


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## Machiavelli

Kazama said:


> Hello; wow, I am super frustrated...going to vent here if you folks don't mind.
> 
> about a month ago, my wife tells me she is super unhappy with me. She pretty voiced she is not happy with almost every attribute about me, except i'm a great father.


Out of the blue, right? That's her rationalization hamster running around in her brain coming up with justifications for the affair she's been having for quite a while now.



Kazama said:


> She says she does not know if she's in love with me anymore, and wants us to see other people.


She doesn't know if she's in love with you anymore, because when she climaxes with other guys, it releases what shrinks call "Bonding chemicals", mainly oxytocin and vasopressin. This "after-sex" bonding to the other guy(s) is what's confusing her about her feelings for you.



Kazama said:


> at first i agree out of confusion, then a couple weeks later I tell her no way.


Glad you found your balls, but her affair(s) started before she told you she wanted an open marriage.




Kazama said:


> Then a couple weeks later she tells me she has been facebooking\talking\txting an old boyfriend, which started a couple months ago.
> 
> I'm thinking ok, the complaints she has about me are all regular problems people go through within a 10 year marriage, but throw in an ex-boyfriend and all the sudden these complains about me are really excuses to get away...hmmmmm.


There's more going on here than Facebook.



Kazama said:


> So we go to counseling and on the first session we establish that we need to spend more quality time together, and the counselor says she needs to stop chatting with her x boyfriend.
> 
> i felt things were looking better after the first session, and then when we meet the counselor again, she admits she is still facebooking the dude.
> 
> When I attempt to find out what exactly she wants to do, she says she doesn't know, and needs time.


She doesn't need time, she needs an ultimatum. I guarantee you she's been getting nailed. If not by Facebook guy, then by somebody else.



Kazama said:


> This is killing me because i don't want to just give up.


Marriage is like Viet Nam. You have to burn the village in order to save it. You have to step up and take charge and tell her the facts of life and mean it. 

But first you need to do some intel work to find out how deep her rabbit hole goes.


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## Tall Average Guy

Kazama said:


> we have gone to two counseling sessions. we established that she wants to work things out, but is not willing to halt communications with her boyfriend. which really means, she is not 100% into the healing proccess.


No, she is not 100% into your marriage. The healing process won't start until she ditches him. 

If you love her, give her what she wants. Start packing her bag, tell her you will buy the bus ticket to the OM's city, and ask when she wants the rest of the stuff sent to her.


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## A Bit Much

She shouldn't have permission to date within the safety of your marriage. TAG has a great idea. Give her what she wants... FULLY. 

She wants the single life, play the dating game, she's free to do so, without your money funding it, or in your face.


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## WayUpNorth

5 hours isn't that far away. I make that drive every weekend. I wonder how many times he has cruised into your town to doink your ol' lady.


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## John Lee

Agree with the others here. She will never be capable of "working on things" when she is not even honest with HERSELF, let alone with you, when she thinks she can have the best of both worlds -- you still wanting her while she emotionally and possibly physically cheats on you, when she is in this "fog," when no one has set any rules or boundaries for her, etc. etc. 

What's that quote people around here always say about how you have to be willing to risk losing the marriage if you want even a chance to save it?


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## Machiavelli

Kazama said:


> what's crazy is that this dude is in a city that's 5 hours away, and he's tied to the city because he's divorced and has a kid there as well.


Baby sitters and airplane tickets are easily acquired. He may come to your area on business. He may also be only one of many paramours. You don't know, so you've got to do your intel.



Kazama said:


> my best assesment is that I think she's going through some mid-life crisis.


I'm guessing she's age 29-39, which is when women's testosterone (and sex drive) is peaking. Other guys start seeming very interesting if you aren't keeping her off balance in your own relationship.



Kazama said:


> Would really hate to give her an ultimatum right in this state, as she will likely choose freedom (in my best assessment).


A strong smack down (figuratively) at the first sign of an interloper is by far the tactic most likely to succeed. Dithering while she performs adultery, even though it's hidden to you, is very damaging to her image of you as a man. Which she has no doubt already been devaluing around the clock, courtesy of her rationalization hamster.


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## Kazama

yeah, i don't like sitting on my hands here. it feels like I have a caged/wild animal in our home. 

at first I said one of us needs to move out, and she said i was being to drastic....hah. a couple days go by, and and i was determined to look for seperate living arrangements, but her brother convinced me to try and hash things out, and that seperation is not the option i want to take.

Oops i forgot to mention we have a 4 year old daughter. so it's not 

easy for her to just walk out the door...or for her just to move to another city.


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## Married but Happy

If you actually - against all the good advice - go through with an open relationship, your _ONLY hope _of regaining her attention is to *find someone prettier and nicer *than her, and *flaunt* it in her face. She may suddenly value you again - but if you can do better, why take her back then?


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## Machiavelli

Kazama said:


> well because despite her insanity for the last couple months, i still want her to be my wife.


That's what she's banking on. You paying the bills while she has a party between her legs. After all, you signed on to the open marriage idea.



Kazama said:


> I am just hoping the madness is temporary.


The sooner you stop the party, the sooner the party ends.



Kazama said:


> Would hate for things to end prematurely and make the biggest mistake of both our lives.


You've already said it was okay for her to bang other guys (huge hit to you, lowering your sex rank about as low as possible), even though you took it back. If it turns out she's done a few guys, do you still want her?



Kazama said:


> my game plan is to attempt to work with her, and if she wants to end things; she will have to be the one to walk out the door.


First you need to do your intel. You've already told her to quit the tip of the iceberg you know about, and she's refused to quit. 



Kazama said:


> i do beleive she is honest with me, and she would tell me if she is in love with the other guy, or has cheated on me.


You believe wrongly.


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## A Bit Much

Kazama said:


> yeah, i don't like sitting on my hands here. it feels like I have a caged/wild animal in our home.
> 
> at first I said one of us needs to move out, and she said i was being to drastic....hah. a couple days go by, and and i was determined to look for seperate living arrangements, but her brother convinced me to try and hash things out, and that seperation is not the option i want to take.
> 
> Oops i forgot to mention we have a 4 year old daughter. so it's not
> 
> easy for her to just walk out the door...or for her just to move to another city.


Moving out is drastic? 

Translation: 'I'm having fun and haven't any solid plans yet with the other man. I want to see where it goes with him first.'

OP do you want to be her Plan B? He's become the starter and you the backup.


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## CASE_Sensitive

Really suggest you move this thread to the Coping With Infedelity thread and start your research there for next steps (which many of the other responders have).


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## Machiavelli

Kazama said:


> nice Conan.
> 
> a couple days ago, i told her that I finally looked up her x-boyfriend on facebook. she got super aggervated/rude with me and fell silent.
> 
> she recenlty has been describing her dream guy (paul walker) which looks nothing like me. Wow, and her exboyfriend somewhat physically resembels our late friend mr. walker. She asked me "what does paul walker have that i don't have?"
> I wish i was making this up, but trust me...i am not. Wow.


She has decided you are not attractive to other women and she's comparing you to sexual alpha types. Sounds bad, but this is what almost always happens with affairs (at least in the mind of the WW) and since she's being upfront about it (unusual to say the least) you may be able to confront it if you still want to.

Do other women come after you often? ever?


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## Dad&Hubby

Kazama said:


> what's crazy is that this dude is in a city that's 5 hours away, and he's tied to the city because he's divorced and has a kid there as well.
> 
> my best assesment is that I think she's going through some mid-life crisis.
> Would really hate to give her an ultimatum right in this state, as she will likely choose freedom (in my best assessment).


You're right.

GOD FORBID, you shake up your wife's thought process while she's been doing the following
1. Been in contact with this guy A LONG TIME before she had issues with you.
2. Started having issues with you BECAUSE of what this guy is telling her. (New love, short term is always more powerful than established love...it's a chemical thing)
3. Who knows what she's talking about with the exboyfriend and for how long.
4. Wouldn't be surprised about expressions of love and sexting.
5. Has your sex life decreased over the last 6 months to a year?
6. Is a woman who looks at you and only sees negatives, because...to her...you're a road block to her freedom. You are stopping her from having her freedom, true love and happiness.
7. Perceives you as everything wrong in her life.

Yes...we don't want to take a stick of dynamite to that mindset...do we?


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## Kazama

Thanks for all the truth and your thoughts folks!!!

Yeah, it does feel like I am her plan B. Even if her plan A will never work out (fantasy).

It seems simple enough to find out if she is willing to be 100% onboard or not.


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## A Bit Much

You already KNOW if she's 100% on board or not...

Her ACTIONS tell you all you need to know. She's still in contact with this man after being told to cut it off. She has flipped you the bird on that one. 

Your actions need to show her you mean business and will NOT be accepting of this nonsense.


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## treyvion

Married but Happy said:


> If you actually - against all the good advice - go through with an open relationship, your _ONLY hope _of regaining her attention is to *find someone prettier and nicer *than her, and *flaunt* it in her face. She may suddenly value you again - but if you can do better, why take her back then?


Do this part for your own self esteem, don't do it to smite her. I'd let her go on about her way since she's so focused on it.


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## John Lee

Kazama said:


> Thanks for all the truth and your thoughts folks!!!
> 
> Yeah, it does feel like I am her plan B. Even if her plan A will never work out (fantasy).
> 
> It seems simple enough to find out if she is willing to be 100% onboard or not.


That's right. Respect yourself, man. If she'd rather catch the boat to lala land where Paul Walker types throw themselves at her feet, let her go ahead.


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## Dad&Hubby

Kazama said:


> first of all, thanks for all the replies!!! i didn't expect to see so much activity.
> 
> 
> 
> well because despite her insanity for the last couple months, i still want her to be my wife. I am just hoping the madness is temporary. Would hate for things to end prematurely and make the biggest mistake of both our lives.
> 
> my game plan is to attempt to work with her, and if she wants to end things; she will have to be the one to walk out the door.
> 
> i do beleive she is honest with me, and she would tell me if she is in love with the other guy, or has cheated on me.


Have you ever tried to reason with a love sick 15 year old girl? Have you ever been a parent/uncle etc. trying to tell a 15 year old girl how wrong a guy, that she's head over heals for, is for her?

You're wife is a love struck 15 year old girl right now. 

You need to take a hard line with her which will do one of two things...end it early so you're in the least amount of pain (because from your wife's side of things, you COULD NEVER GET HER BACK) or snap her out of it.

You need to say "I see how much you want to be with someone else. I'm not going to have a wife who acts like a 15 year old girl love struck for someone else. Get out, go be with your lover boy. I'm moving on with my life. I'm not going to accept this behavior and treatment" and kick her out.


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## Dad&Hubby

Kazama said:


> we have gone to two counseling sessions. we established that she wants to work things out, but is not willing to halt communications with her boyfriend. which really means, she is not 100% into the healing proccess.


No it means she wants to USE YOU for your paycheck and your paternal abilities (plus being the convenient babysitter when she wants to go bang another dude).

Her life is super convenient right now. She has the doormat husband/father at home and the ability to have all the giddy, butterflies of new love with other men.

Win win. There's no "confusion". She knows what she's doing.


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## Kazama

Machiavelli said:


> She has decided you are not attractive to other women and she's comparing you to sexual alpha types. Sounds bad, but this is what almost always happens with affairs (at least in the mind of the WW) and since she's being upfront about it (unusual to say the least) you may be able to confront it if you still want to.
> 
> Do other women come after you often? ever?


not often, but i'm not an unattractive guy. I keep fit...very low body fat. but yeah, on an attractive scale from 1-10, if i give myself a 7, this guy has me by a couple points.


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## Machiavelli

Kazama said:


> Thanks for all the truth and your thoughts folks!!!
> 
> Yeah, it does feel like I am her plan B. Even if her plan A will never work out (fantasy).
> 
> It seems simple enough to find out if she is willing to be 100% onboard or not.


It's simple, but it won't look simple to you and it won't look simple to her. Your wife gets a crack-like hit of dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin, and a host of other feel good body chemistry if she is having sex with another guy. She has basically become an addict (no overstatement) to attention from outside males.

Put a voice activated recorder under the driver's seat of her car. Velcro it up in there. Put a GPS on it. You can either get the real time or the USB after-the-fact type for a lot less money. It's not like you're trying to stop something that hasn't already happened.

Pull your phone records back for the last year and look for mystery numbers with heavy traffic.

Get into her computer and try to find out how many men she met during the "open marriage" period.

How old are you two? Any kids?

Does your wife work or travel?


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## Kazama

Dad&hubby,

Our sex life has suffered since we had our daughter; we got caught as the parents that sleep with their toddler. 
Just in the last few months we moved her to her own room.

my wife also complains that i can't get her to orgasm outside of oral sex. 

So yes, I have fallen short in the bedroom department.


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## tom67

Find a way to contact the other mans gf. That's another way of ending this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## A Bit Much

Kazama said:


> Dad&hubby,
> 
> Our sex life has suffered since we had our daughter; we got caught as the parents that sleep with their toddler.
> Just in the last few months we moved her to her own room.
> 
> my wife also complains that i can't get her to orgasm outside of oral sex.
> 
> So yes, I have fallen short in the bedroom department.


I call BS on her 'complaint'. MOST women don't/can't orgasm outside of oral sex or masturbation. She's asking you to capture the holy grail with that one.

She's bored and she's taking it out on you versus doing something constructive WITH you to strengthen your relationship.


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## Kazama

Machiavelli said:


> It's simple, but it won't look simple to you and it won't look simple to her. Your wife gets a crack-like hit of dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin, and a host of other feel good body chemistry if she is having sex with another guy. She has basically become an addict (no overstatement) to attention from outside males.
> 
> Put a voice activated recorder under the driver's seat of her car. Velcro it up in there. Put a GPS on it. You can either get the real time or the USB after-the-fact type for a lot less money. It's not like you're trying to stop something that hasn't already happened.
> 
> Pull your phone records back for the last year and look for mystery numbers with heavy traffic.
> 
> Get into her computer and try to find out how many men she met during the "open marriage" period.
> 
> How old are you two? Any kids?
> 
> Does your wife work or travel?


we are in our mid thirties. we have a 3 1/2 year old daughter.

She works, and makes almost as much as me...so she can be independent without my salary.

she does not travel. 

I really think she would have told me if she slept with someone else. i know i sound like an idiot by saying that.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

Kazama said:


> Dad&hubby,
> 
> Our sex life has suffered since we had our daughter; we got caught as the parents that sleep with their toddler.
> Just in the last few months we moved her to her own room.
> 
> my wife also complains that i can't get her to orgasm outside of oral sex.
> 
> So yes, I have fallen short in the bedroom department.


Not to be funny, but some women would be SUPER happy to have a husband who can "only get her to orgasm through oral".

Some husbands don't make their wives orgasm at all.

Some women can't orgasm through penetration, so it's not a reason to not be happy with you (potentially).

So what you're telling me is you have a wife who.
1. Doesn't like you in the bedroom
2. Doesn't find you attractive (regardless of the fact that you are an attractive guy)
3. Doesn't respect you
4. Cheats on you

Okay so WHY do you want to be married to her? Seriously?

What in the above could EVER possibly be the recipe for long term happiness?

I know it sucks about divorce and it's affect on your daughter. I have two older kids from a divorce and, as guilty as I felt then, I've come to realize that they are 100000X better growing up the way they have instead of what the house WOULD have been if I tried to make it work with their mom.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

Kazama said:


> we are in our mid thirties. we have a 3 1/2 year old daughter.
> 
> She works, and makes almost as much as me...so she can be independent without my salary.
> 
> she does not travel.
> 
> *I really think she would have told me if she slept with someone else. i know i sound like an idiot by saying that.*


At least you admit it. LOL

I know this sucks man. But be strong.


----------



## Machiavelli

Kazama said:


> not often, but i'm not an unattractive guy. I keep fit...very low body fat. but yeah, on an attractive scale from 1-10, if i give myself a 7, this guy has me by a couple points.


The following assumes you want to stay with her or else replace her with the hottest thing on two legs.

Six Pack? good. The only thing that rates higher than that (female subconscious attractor) is to be within the Golden Ratio, which is the waist (between obliques and ribcage) needs to be 67% or less of the shoulder measurement. A six pack and golden ratio physique will trigger women's limbic response. Here's what you want (the guy on the left has it, the guy on the right needs to add shoulder width):









Right now, you need to change your hair. If it's long, cut it off. If it's short, grow it out, but change it someway immediately.

Change your clothes up. Start dressing about 10 years younger and about 3X richer. Start finding excuses to wear suits or sport jackets. Change your ride to something a guy on the make would drive.

Start going out. Did you get any dates during your open marriage period? Tomorrow night, comb your new hairstyle, put on your new threads and say, "I'm going out. Don't wait up."

She'll either look at you dumbstruck, in which case you continue to leave, or she'll ask where you're going. If so, you say, "I'll know when I get there, do you want to go?" If she does, make it a date night, but don't tell her where you're going. You go where you want without any input from her (important). If she doesn't want to go, head on out. Your GPS will tell you what she did while you were away. You might also want to stash a VAR under your bed and in the guest room if you have one.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Kazama said:


> I really think she would have told me if she slept with someone else.


Based on what? I already listed the lies and omissions she has told you (or not told you). What evidence do you have that she would be honest with you. By the way, have you asked her if she has slept with him (or any one else)?


----------



## Machiavelli

Kazama said:


> Dad&hubby,
> 
> Our sex life has suffered since we had our daughter; we got caught as the parents that sleep with their toddler.
> Just in the last few months we moved her to her own room.
> 
> *my wife also complains that i can't get her to orgasm outside of oral sex. *
> 
> So yes, I have fallen short in the bedroom department.


Is that a new problem? Sometimes women can't climax from coitus with any guy, sometimes they can with certain guys. If this is new, in the sense that she has just started complaining, you know what it means.


----------



## treyvion

Machiavelli said:


> Is that a new problem? Sometimes women can't climax from coitus with any guy, sometimes they can with certain guys. If this is new, in the sense that she has just started complaining, you know what it means.


And sometimes they can't climax from sexual intercourse, but for some strange reason in an affair they can.

Her level of intensity and focus is increased in her affair, so everything feels better to her.


----------



## Cletus

Kazama said:


> Thanks for all the truth and your thoughts folks!!!
> 
> Yeah, it does feel like I am her plan B. Even if her plan A will never work out (fantasy).
> 
> It seems simple enough to find out if she is willing to be 100% onboard or not.


Dude, you really are being a sucker here. 

If she wants an open relationship, tell he she already has one - the front door is wide open.

This isn't a penitent wife coming home, scarred, with her tail between her legs looking for redemption and a second chance, where I could give you the benefit of the doubt. The only thing between her legs is some other dude's schlong.


----------



## MrK

Just remember, if you don't look like one of these guys, you won't get laid.



Tell her you have a date tomorrow night. Then go to a movie, grab a late snack, take a little nap in your car and get home really late. Get some cheap perfume and spray a TINY bit on your clothes.


----------



## John Lee

IMO now is not the time to be focusing on how you can better please the wife in bed. It's like going through a burning building looking for fire code violations.


----------



## John Lee

MrK said:


> Just remember, if you don't look like one of these guys, you won't get laid.
> 
> 
> 
> Tell her you have a date tomorrow night. Then go to a movie, grab a late snack, take a little nap in your car and get home really late. Get some cheap perfume and spray a TINY bit on your clothes.


Machiavelli is either a troll or just one of those guys who reads too many PUA books. He has some points, but he is to be taken with much salt.


----------



## John Lee

Actually, according to Mach, the guy on the right has TROUBLE getting laid. Because his shoulders aren't wide enough. Must suck to be him.


----------



## Kazama

machiavelle,

ahaha...but you are right, I will start to dress nicer and hang out with my boys once in a while (which I NEVER do anymore). in fact i will go out tomorrow night to see a friend from out of town.

wow, i kill myself with weights big time to look like those guys...heh. here is where i am at today...I have been super into Jiu jitsu lately and have lacking in hitting the gym.


----------



## A Bit Much

Going out and making yourself LESS available to her as a babysitter will make a difference... more for you than her.

And as a female I don't think you look bad at all. I'm being completely honest. I think your wife is full of you know what and wants her cake and to eat it too.


----------



## John Lee

If your wife isn't committed to you, it doesn't matter what your abs look like. You look fine, you're in good shape, that's clearly not the problem here.

Your wife is caught in a fantasy right now. She may stay in it or she may snap out of it, but she's only going to respond to the hard approach, if she responds to anything at all.


----------



## A Bit Much

John Lee said:


> Actually, according to Mach, the guy on the right has TROUBLE getting laid. Because his shoulders aren't wide enough. Must suck to be him.


Dude, I wouldn't kick Ryan Reynolds out of MY bed. Just sayin.


----------



## Machiavelli

Kazama said:


> we are in our mid thirties.


That fits the profile.



Kazama said:


> we have a 3 1/2 year old daughter.


Child approaching age 4, when she will be fairly viable on her own. This is another stereotypical danger point.



Kazama said:


> She works, and makes almost as much as me...so she can be independent without my salary.


Yeah. She's not really feeling the "I love my provider male" vibe. At least she's not out-earning you.



Kazama said:


> she does not travel.


Good. That makes it easier to run your investigation. 



Kazama said:


> I really think she would have told me if she slept with someone else.


You're wrong about that.



Kazama said:


> i know i sound like an idiot by saying that.


You're right about that, but that's just how us guys are, when we're in love. It is no slam on you in any way. It's only slam if you're so sure of it, you won't look into it.

Stop with the MC. It's a waste of time and money when a boyfriend is in the picture. Seriously. Drop it and don't mention it to your wife. In fact, stop talking about the relationship with your wife. Women always say they want a sensitive guy who talks about the relationship, but in fact that is a huge sexual turn off to them. 

Your wife has deluded herself over a period of time into thinking you're not attractive. Your reasonable and totally rational appeals to her to quit misbehaving make her (crazily) think she is the only woman who will have you (see she's irrational and basically on crack). The best way to shake her up is to get her to look at you in a new light and that means change your appearance and your behavior toward her and your behavior toward other women.


----------



## Cubby

Those two weeks where you at first agreed, she was like a kid in a candy store. Big mistake to agree to that. 

I know, you were flustered and didn't know how to handle it. If you vehemently deny her request, you probably thought you'll lose your wife. You wanted to desparately cling to her at that moment.

But that's the opposite of what you should've done. As it's been explained, that makes you appear weak, feeble, pathetic.

I fear it's likely your wife is already deeply involved with this guy or others. Now you have to find out (quietly)to what extent using the methods that have been explained.

And then it's very simple. Calmly and firmly tell her you won't tolerate an open marriage and if that's what she wants then you're done and you're filing for divorce. And then do it. Then we'll see how much the open marriage thing appeals to her. At least this way you have a shot to get your marriage back on track. If you want her, that is. You might not after your intel is complete.


----------



## Kazama

ahaah thanks folks.

Sounds like i am being a doormat. 

i am trying really hard to make things work. at the counselor we estabilshed every other weekend to have date night where my daughter spends the night at my parents house. an then i thought we set aside thursday to spend with each other...only to get in an argument this morning that she has to go to yoga after work...and that her triatholon training is faulting.

woman, your marraige is faulting! 

I will join her in hot yoga class tonight.


----------



## Tripper

Kazama said:


> Hello; wow, I am super frustrated...going to vent here if you folks don't mind.
> 
> about a month ago, my wife tells me she is super unhappy with me. She pretty voiced she is not happy with almost every attribute about me, except i'm a great father.
> 
> She says she does not know if she's in love with me anymore.
> 
> Then a couple weeks later she tells me she has been facebooking\talking\txting an old boyfriend, which started a couple months ago.
> 
> 
> 
> This is killing me because i don't want to just give up.


I believe the information you have given is nearly enough proof she has already made a choice to find whatever it is she is looking for somewhere else. We don't know the dynamics of your relationship and just what brought on these feelings she has or has lost?

Insisting she stop all contact with the other man as some have suggested will most likely push her even closer to him and further from you.

Moving forward with the "open relationship" would probably end the same way. To enter into an open marriage or swinging type lifestyle when the relationship is not a coming from a loving, secure and strong base will be destined to fail.


If she say's she's not sure if she is still in love with you and has been contacting an old BF for a while before dropping this all on you I would think it's safe to say she is ready to move on but may be reluctant due to the children.

Marriage Counciling.....Might work for some...but nearly all of the couples I have known (which has been 4) that went to counciling 3 of those ended up in divorce at some point.....The other...well they are still together but everyone can see they really are not happy and just sticking it out until their kids are grown....Not a good thing either.

I wish you luck!


----------



## John Lee

Kazama said:


> ahaah thanks folks.
> 
> Sounds like i am being a doormat.
> 
> i am trying really hard to make things work. at the counselor we estabilshed every other weekend to have date night where my daughter spends the night at my parents house. an then i thought we set aside thursday to spend with each other...only to get in an argument this morning that she has to go to yoga after work...and that her triatholon training is faulting.
> 
> woman, your marraige is faulting!
> 
> I will join her in hot yoga class tonight.


So triathalon and "hot yoga" are more important than you too, huh? 

I wouldn't even go to the hot yoga class. What's the point? If hot yoga is an excuse for an affair, you're probably not going to catch her that way. And it makes it seem like you're following her around like a puppy dog, or being "controlling" (a word wayward spouses LOVE to use). If you want to catch her, you need to be cool, not follow her around obviously. And if that's not the goal, well I don't see the point anyway, unless you just love hot yoga.


----------



## Cubby

John Lee said:


> If your wife isn't committed to you, it doesn't matter what your abs look like. *You look fine, you're in good shape, that's clearly not the problem here.*
> 
> Your wife is caught in a fantasy right now. She may stay in it or she may snap out of it, but she's only going to respond to the hard approach, if she responds to anything at all.


Yeah he does look good. That may not be the problem, but it might be part of the solution. By shaking up his marriage, including as Mach says, getting some cool new clothes, new haircut, mysteriously going out, at least it's believable, because he's in good shape, that other chicks could be attracted to him. Younger, hotter chicks. And that's actually appealing to her. So at least he's got half the battle won, by being in good shape.


----------



## Kazama

Machiavelli said:


> You're right about that, but that's just how us guys are, when we're in love. It is no slam on you in any way. It's only slam if you're so sure of it, you won't look into it.
> 
> Stop with the MC. It's a waste of time and money when a boyfriend is in the picture. Seriously. Drop it and don't mention it to your wife. In fact, stop talking about the relationship with your wife. Women always say they want a sensitive guy who talks about the relationship, but in fact that is a huge sexual turn off to them.
> 
> Your wife has deluded herself over a period of time into thinking you're not attractive. Your reasonable and totally rational appeals to her to quit misbehaving make her (crazily) think she is the only woman who will have you (see she's irrational and basically on crack). The best way to shake her up is to get her to look at you in a new light and that means change your appearance and your behavior toward her and your behavior toward other women.


thanks for the words. 

i see your viewpoint...i actually cancelled the marriage counseling sessions because our insurance will not cover them unless one of us is diagnosed with depression. and HSA cant be used for marriage counseling either. 

i think for now, i will grow some confidence.
i'll hit up that hot yoga class tonight and see if I can't get some ladies to check me out...heh


----------



## John Lee

Cubby said:


> Yeah he does look good. That may not be the problem, but it might be part of the solution. By shaking up his marriage, including as Mach says, getting some cool new clothes, new haircut, mysteriously going out, at least it's believable, because he's in good shape, that other chicks could be attracted to him. Younger, hotter chicks. And that's actually appealing to her. So at least he's got half the battle won, by being in good shape.


Can anyone here actually attest to this approach working for them? It sounds like a fantasy to me, but I don't know.


----------



## Machiavelli

John Lee said:


> Actually, according to Mach, the guy on the right has TROUBLE getting laid. Because his shoulders aren't wide enough. Must suck to be him.


The guy on the right gets laid a lot: visible inguinal ligaments (a huge female turn on), but he's hurting in the shoulder department. But don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.


----------



## Cubby

John Lee said:


> Can anyone here actually attest to this approach working for them? It sounds like a fantasy to me, but I don't know.


Yeah....it worked for me!


----------



## Kazama

John Lee said:


> And it makes it seem like you're following her around like a puppy dog, or being "controlling" (a word wayward spouses LOVE to use). If you want to catch her, you need to be cool, not follow her around obviously. And if that's not the goal, well I don't see the point anyway, unless you just love hot yoga.


oops, i didn't realize i could fall into the puppy dog section as well thanks!
I will collaborate dates with her in moderation.


----------



## John Lee

Kazama said:


> oops, i didn't realize i could fall into the puppy dog section as well thanks!
> I will collaborate dates with her in moderation.


I don't understand, I keep thinking you're getting it, but then it seems like you're not. YOUR WIFE MAY ALREADY BE CHEATING ON YOU. Now is not the time for "dates" with her (if that's what you meant, I'm not sure). Until you force her to make a choice to cut off contact with the other man, nothing else is going to improve your relationship. You might get little false glimmers of hope, but that's all they will be.

Don't be dense, your time is running out.


----------



## Cubby

Kazama said:


> oops, i didn't realize i could fall into the puppy dog section as well thanks!
> I will collaborate dates with her in moderation.


Kazama, you gotta act like you've got a lot going on. The last thing you want to do is follow her around like a puppy dog. Be mysterious, act like you're busy, walk around the house wearing a tool belt (okay, maybe I exaggerate, but it's a manly look that appeals to your wife) Get her mind racing, wondering what's going on. Don't be so available.


----------



## Cubby

Yes, Kazama, you really need to find out exactly what your wife has been up to rather than going with her to yoga. (if that's where she's going?) Use this time to investigate. Once you have your info, that's when you confront her.


----------



## MattMatt

Kazama said:


> nice Conan.
> 
> a couple days ago, i told her that I finally looked up her x-boyfriend on facebook. she got super aggervated/rude with me and fell silent.
> 
> she recenlty has been describing her dream guy (paul walker) which looks nothing like me. Wow, and her exboyfriend somewhat physically resembels our late friend mr. walker. *She asked me "what does paul walker have that i don't have?" *
> I wish i was making this up, but trust me...i am not. Wow.


The answer to her question is: "He has a f**king gravestone! Next question?"


----------



## Machiavelli

John Lee said:


> Machiavelli is either a troll or just one of those guys who reads too many PUA books. He has some points, but he is to be taken with much salt.


Actually, I own a physique training studio. My clients are usually responding to an upheaval in their romantic lives. Never read a PUA book, but I did read some of Married Man Sex Life Primer, which I think should be read by every guy. The guy's blog is also good. And I also read Alpha Game Plan, because his observations tend match some of the things I've experienced over the years.


----------



## MattMatt

Right. First step is to ask a kindly moderator to move your thread to Coping With Infidelity. She is cheating on you, either in spirit or body.

Then get STD tests done. Also, have a DNA test done on your daughter. Why? To test your daughter's parentage? No. (Although that sometimes happens.) It is to raise a red card to your wife. :redcard:

What it says is: *"See! Now look what you made me do! I do not know when you started cheating one me! This month? Last month? Last year? Or have you secretly been in an open relationship even since before we got married? I can trust nothing you have ever said or done!"*


----------



## treyvion

John Lee said:


> Actually, according to Mach, the guy on the right has TROUBLE getting laid. Because his shoulders aren't wide enough. Must suck to be him.


No. He said if they were in the same room, if they are going off of strictly physical appeal that more would be drawn to the guy on the left. 

Alot of this stuff IS science and psychology. There are trends.

Some would be drawn to the guy on the right because maybe they don't prefer a guy that big, but neither is that big to me.


----------



## treyvion

Kazama said:


> machiavelle,
> 
> ahaha...but you are right, I will start to dress nicer and hang out with my boys once in a while (which I NEVER do anymore). in fact i will go out tomorrow night to see a friend from out of town.
> 
> wow, i kill myself with weights big time to look like those guys...heh. here is where i am at today...I have been super into Jiu jitsu lately and have lacking in hitting the gym.


Your body is more than good enough. I'd put on a little muscle. Alot of women love slim men.

The most drastic thing you can do is what you wear and how you wear it.

Do some things for yourself.


----------



## Machiavelli

Kazama said:


> machiavelle,
> 
> ahaha...but you are right, I will start to dress nicer and hang out with my boys once in a while (which I NEVER do anymore). in fact i will go out tomorrow night to see a friend from out of town.
> 
> wow, i kill myself with weights big time to look like those guys...heh. here is where i am at today...I have been super into Jiu jitsu lately and have lacking in hitting the gym.


Excellent. I commend you. Get even leaner. Cut all the alcohol, bread, sugar. Get ripped. Few people can stay ripped all time, it's too tough. But, this is one of those times you want to go for a personal record. As your body gets more defined, go around the house without a shirt when she's home.


----------



## treyvion

Machiavelli said:


> Excellent. I commend you. Get even leaner. Cut all the alcohol, bread, sugar. Get ripped. Few people can stay ripped all time, it's too tough. But, this is one of those times you want to go for a personal record. As your body gets more defined, go around the house without a shirt when she's home.


Yeah, might as well be Conan around the house. The man. You ARE the man!


----------



## Machiavelli

Kazama said:


> I will join her in hot yoga class tonight.


Is your presence there usual or is this something new?

Who is her trainer or training partners for the triathlon?


----------



## treyvion

Machiavelli said:


> Is your presence there usual or is this something new?
> 
> Who is her trainer or training partners for the triathlon?


If Yoga is done by a male that she has the hots for it CAN hurt you unless you are extremely self secure and confident.


----------



## Cletus

Machiavelli said:


> The guy on the right gets laid a lot: visible inguinal ligaments (a huge female turn on), but he's hurting in the shoulder department. But don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.


<Snicker> Wish I was hurting like Ryan Reynolds. What a nightmare!


----------



## Maricha75

Kazama, there are a few things that have stood out to me.

1. You said you "i do beleive she is honest with me, and she would tell me if she is in love with the other guy, or has cheated on me."

Well, no, she wouldn't. She waited a month before telling you she wanted to see other people, when she had already established this new relationship with the old boyfriend. IOW, she was already cheating, but didn't tell you. Get it? She wasn't honest with you... Not until she was backed into a corner.

2. You looked up the boyfriend and get got pissed. She got pissed because you were checking out the new man. Nothing more, nothing less. She wanted to keep the OM separate...for now, at least.

3. I'm gonna guess that your BIL has no clue about how real an EA is, nor how devastating it can be...especially when your wife refuses to give up her boyfriend. He doesn't get it, so of COURSE he's gonna tell you to not separate. However, I do agree that you moving out is not a good option. If anyone, it should be your wife moving, not you.

4. Orgasms by only oral? If that was never a concern before, but is suddenly a problem, then I'm going to jump on the bandwagon that she's definitely getting it elsewhere. IOW, there IS someone else she's having sex with, who is giving her these other orgasms, whether it is the old boyfriend or some guy down the street. But, as others have already stated, not all women can have orgasms by other means than oral/manual stimulation. I am one who is like that. No complaints from me! I'm just glad that my husband is one who cares enough to even get me off. Too many men don't care as long as they get theirs.

5. "I really think she would have told me if she slept with someone else. i know i sound like an idiot by saying that."
Yes, you do and no she wouldn't. How long did she wait to tell you that she is Facebooking the old boyfriend, again? How did you find out that she isn't willing to give him up to save your marriage? That's right, in counseling, with a third party there. And the first time was more than TWO MONTHS after they reconnected. Think about that. 

Dude, she has fabricated excuses as to why she wants more. It's your turn. Make the ultimatum. It's you or the boyfriend. If she says "I don't know" or anything that would even REMOTELY sound like "You can't pick my friends!"... Tell her "Fine, that's your answer. Pack a bag and GTFO. Let me know where you want the rest of your things." She is cheating... either it is only emotionally, or it is physically AND emotionally. Either way, she's cheating.


----------



## Machiavelli

John Lee said:


> Can anyone here actually attest to this approach working for them? It sounds like a fantasy to me, but I don't know.


It works real well for the younger, hotter girls I see coming up around the bend.

I have one client whose wife stayed after an affair was uncovered, but he also went hard assed simultaneously with VARs, GPS, key logger, and the whole arsenal. He knew more about her affair than she did. I also have a bunch of clients, friends, and family who have younger, hotter wives than the one who had the affair. Better wives.

The OP may or may not get his wife to snap out of it, but if he starts keeping The Sixteen Commandments while getting a lot of visible attention from other women, he might be able to snap her out of it. I know people in the paragraph above who have done that, but still divorced; because younger, hotter, and loyal came on the scene.


----------



## Machiavelli

Cletus said:


> <Snicker> Wish I was hurting like Ryan Reynolds. What a nightmare!


Agreed. Inguinal ligaments. It's like PT-141.


----------



## Machiavelli

treyvion said:


> If Yoga is done by a male that she has the hots for it CAN hurt you unless you are extremely self secure and confident.


Yoga and triathlon training.

Yoga originated as pre-foreplay for women in tantric sex cults. The positions were designed to direct blood to the target area of the crotch. There are always lots of scandals with male instructors running harems of wayward wives.


----------



## treyvion

Machiavelli said:


> Yoga and triathlon training.
> 
> Yoga originated as pre-foreplay for women in tantric sex cults. The positions were designed to direct blood to the target area of the crotch. There are always lots of scandals with male instructors running harems of wayward wives.


Going to get back in yoga class!:smthumbup:


----------



## Malaise

Maricha75 said:


> Kazama, there are a few things that have stood out to me.
> 
> 1. You said you "i do beleive she is honest with me, and she would tell me if she is in love with the other guy, or has cheated on me."
> 
> Well, no, she wouldn't. She waited a month before telling you she wanted to see other people, when she had already established this new relationship with the old boyfriend. IOW, she was already cheating, but didn't tell you. Get it? She wasn't honest with you... Not until she was backed into a corner.
> 
> 2. You looked up the boyfriend and get got pissed. She got pissed because you were checking out the new man. Nothing more, nothing less. She wanted to keep the OM separate...for now, at least.
> 
> 3. I'm gonna guess that your BIL has no clue about how real an EA is, nor how devastating it can be...especially when your wife refuses to give up her boyfriend. He doesn't get it, so of COURSE he's gonna tell you to not separate. However, I do agree that you moving out is not a good option. If anyone, it should be your wife moving, not you.
> 
> 4. Orgasms by only oral? If that was never a concern before, but is suddenly a problem, then I'm going to jump on the bandwagon that she's definitely getting it elsewhere. IOW, there IS someone else she's having sex with, who is giving her these other orgasms, whether it is the old boyfriend or some guy down the street. But, as others have already stated, not all women can have orgasms by other means than oral/manual stimulation. I am one who is like that. No complaints from me! I'm just glad that my husband is one who cares enough to even get me off. Too many men don't care as long as they get theirs.
> 
> 5. "I really think she would have told me if she slept with someone else. i know i sound like an idiot by saying that."
> Yes, you do and no she wouldn't. How long did she wait to tell you that she is Facebooking the old boyfriend, again? How did you find out that she isn't willing to give him up to save your marriage? That's right, in counseling, with a third party there. And the first time was more than TWO MONTHS after they reconnected. Think about that.
> 
> Dude, she has fabricated excuses as to why she wants more. It's your turn. Make the ultimatum. It's you or the boyfriend. If she says "I don't know" or anything that would even REMOTELY sound like "You can't pick my friends!"... Tell her "Fine, that's your answer. Pack a bag and GTFO. Let me know where you want the rest of your things." She is cheating... either it is only emotionally, or it is physically AND emotionally. Either way, she's cheating.


OP, you would do yourself a solid to read this with care. And to listen to Mach.

Very carefully.


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## Dad&Hubby

Cubby said:


> Kazama, you gotta act like you've got a lot going on. The last thing you want to do is follow her around like a puppy dog. Be mysterious, act like you're busy, walk around the house wearing a tool belt (okay, maybe I exaggerate, but it's a manly look that appeals to your wife) Get her mind racing, wondering what's going on. Don't be so available.


Exactly. Like leave work a little early today. Go get a hair style, get a new outfit and cologne. Go home, get dressed up and when your wife says she's going to Yoga.

You say "Have fun...I'm going 'out' "
The look on her face will be priceless and then the barrage of questions will start. Don't answer any of them.

Keep your first couple answers to "As long as you have a boyfriend, I can't consider you my wife. If you want to be a wife again, let me know. Until then, don't ask me questions, I owe you nothing the way you've acted."

Then the next time she starts in on you..shorter answers like "why are you going there? Drop it" and walk away.

Then just give the head nod with raised eye brow that says "we've been here before".


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## Kazama

*UPDATE*

I confronted her last night. basically said that it's not going to work out if you keep talking with your x-boyfriend.

Her behavior is inappropriate and as much as I was trying to ignore it; I don't want to end up despising her. so yeah, I did not want to have it drag on anymore.

in the end, she said she didn't feel the same about us; and wants to be single.

but basically she is not willing to cooperate and give us another fair shot (by not talking with her x). she keeps bringing up past events and details that upset her...which feels like reasons to distance herself from me.

So now we are discussing terms of separation. *sigh


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## Cletus

Kazama said:


> *UPDATE*
> 
> 
> So now we are discussing terms of separation. *sigh


Sad but necessary. You'll find plenty of support 'round here for that problem too.


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## John Lee

Very sorry to hear Kazama, you have my sympathy.

But just remember, confronting her was like going to the dentist and finding a bad cavity. Going to the dentist didn't cause the cavity, it's just how you discovered it.


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## Dad&Hubby

Kazama said:


> *UPDATE*
> 
> I confronted her last night. basically said that it's not going to work out if you keep talking with your x-boyfriend.
> 
> Her behavior is inappropriate and as much as I was trying to ignore it; I don't want to end up despising her. so yeah, I did not want to have it drag on anymore.
> 
> in the end, she said she didn't feel the same about us; and wants to be single.
> 
> but basically she is not willing to cooperate and give us another fair shot (by not talking with her x). she keeps bringing up past events and details that upset her...which feels like reasons to distance herself from me.
> 
> So now we are discussing terms of separation. *sigh


Whatever you do, if you own a house, DO NOT MOVE OUT during separation.


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## John Lee

I will tell you this though: there is a possibility that days, weeks, months from now she will suddenly have a change of heart and want you back. Maybe she'll try to get back with the ex boyfriend and it won't work out, or maybe she'll realize the grass isn't greener. You have to think carefully about whether you really would want her back in that scenario.


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## Tall Average Guy

Kazama said:


> *UPDATE*So now we are discussing terms of separation. *sigh


Go full bore with your separation, but don't leave the house. Don't talk to her about anything other than that or the kid. No discussion of feelings, how her day was, or reminiscing about the past. Be clear that because she does not want to be married, you don't want to either and need to move on.

Then start taking care of yourself. Go have some fun, get sleep, keep exercising. Make her stay home with the kid while you have fun.


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## Kazama

I was planning to leave next Tuesday. In the long term...is that she would find her own place.

Can you kind folks explain to me why I should not move out?
We own a home together.


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## Thound

Kazama said:


> I was planning to leave next Tuesday. In the long term...is that she would find her own place.
> 
> Can you kind folks explain to me why I should not move out?
> We own a home together.


She is the one who wants to break up the home. If she is so unhappy, let HER leave. And it puts you in the position of strength. Not to mention who ever leaves has to find a place, setup utilities, get furnishings etc.etc.


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## 6301

Kazama said:


> *UPDATE*
> 
> I confronted her last night. basically said that it's not going to work out if you keep talking with your x-boyfriend.
> 
> Her behavior is inappropriate and as much as I was trying to ignore it; I don't want to end up despising her. so yeah, I did not want to have it drag on anymore.
> 
> in the end, she said she didn't feel the same about us; and wants to be single.
> 
> but basically she is not willing to cooperate and give us another fair shot (by not talking with her x). she keeps bringing up past events and details that upset her...which feels like reasons to distance herself from me.
> 
> So now we are discussing terms of separation. *sigh


 Tell her that she's free to go. Let her know that you wont hold her back and when her romance falls apart and she realizes that it was a mistake and wants to come back that you are not plan B. let her know that you want 50 50 custody of your child and will not settle for anything less and then close the book on her. 

So many times people think that the grass is always greener until they get a lot closer and see that the grass is mostly weeds. Then it's too late. Then when she comes knocking on your door for another chance, you let her know that you moved on and deserve something better.


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## anchorwatch

Here, read this, print it out, tape where you can see it frequently, live it.

180 List - No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group

And this, No More Mr Nice Guy

Good luck


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## Kazama

thanks for the advice folks. funny how in the current state of mind...it's easy not to see things clearly.


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## Dad&Hubby

Thound said:


> She is the one who wants to break up the home. If she is so unhappy, let HER leave. And it puts you in the position of strength. Not to mention who ever leaves has to find a place, setup utilities, get furnishings etc.etc.



It's more than that. If you leave a dwelling during or prior to a divorce, you could be found to have "abandoned" the property and at that point you give up all legal claim to said property. You could even be cited for abandonment of the family which makes custody harder to fight.

You need to stay under the same roof as your daughter and even try to take on more day to day responsibilities of her. You take her to her dance class, you put her to bed. you take her to daycare etc.

Assuming you live in a no fault state. Divorces quickly become a math calculation for assets etc and everything focuses on the child.


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## John Lee

I would also say talk to a lawyer ASAP if you can afford to.


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## LongWalk

She has to leave, not you. Why should you do all the work to convenience her? Read GutPunch's thread for inspiration.


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## Tall Average Guy

John Lee said:


> I would also say talk to a lawyer ASAP if you can afford to.


This. Find out your rights and what you need to do to protect yourself and you kid. 

You don't know the woman you are married to anymore, so don't assume that she will act the same. PROTECT YOURSELF!


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## Dad&Hubby

John Lee said:


> I would also say talk to a lawyer ASAP if you can afford to.


Actually try and have a free consultation with the best lawyers around.

That way it takes them off the market so she can't hire them.


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## John Lee

Dad&Hubby said:


> Actually try and have a free consultation with the best lawyers around.
> 
> That way it takes them off the market so she can't hire them.


My kind of guy. Must be a lawyer. :smthumbup:


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## John Lee

Kazama said:


> thanks for the advice folks. funny how in the current state of mind...it's easy not to see things clearly.


It's good that you recognize this! All the more reason to talk to a lawyer ASAP, who can see things more clearly.


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## anchorwatch

Why should you leave your family home and children? You didn't choose to be single. She wants to be single, let her go start her new life.. Your family can continue without her. Let her go live with her Ex. Don't allow her to replace you so easily and let the Ex step into the life style you built for your family. 

Get a lawyer today, and stop letting her control what happens in your life, without your input. 

Take control and stick to the 180.


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## Machiavelli

Kazama said:


> *UPDATE*
> 
> I confronted her last night. basically said that it's not going to work out if you keep talking with your x-boyfriend.
> 
> Her behavior is inappropriate and as much as I was trying to ignore it; I don't want to end up despising her. so yeah, I did not want to have it drag on anymore.
> 
> in the end, she said she didn't feel the same about us; and wants to be single.
> 
> but basically she is not willing to cooperate and give us another fair shot (by not talking with her x). she keeps bringing up past events and details that upset her...which feels like reasons to distance herself from me.
> 
> So now we are discussing terms of separation. *sigh


File on her ass immediately. Be ruthless. Does your state have "cause" divorce? They all have "no fault" but some still have cause and others may factor adultery into the property and CS calculations.


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## Machiavelli

If you want to try to make it work, still, you need to investigate her and get the goods on who, how many, when, where, etc. It's possible, but unlikely, that when you hit her with what you know, she may fold. I say adultery has already happened, just from her behavior as described in post #1. She's definitely been living the single life outside of your LOS.


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## treyvion

Machiavelli said:


> If you want to try to make it work, still, you need to investigate her and get the goods on who, how many, when, where, etc. It's possible, but unlikely, that when you hit her with what you know, she may fold. I say adultery has already happened, just from her behavior as described in post #1. She's definitely been living the single life outside of your LOS.


If he wants to make it work, he still needs to drop her ass and stop supporting her.

She has to realize what she lost and if she never lost anything she won't appreciate it.


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## Machiavelli

John Lee said:


> I will tell you this though: there is a possibility that days, weeks, months from now she will suddenly have a change of heart and want you back. Maybe she'll try to get back with the ex boyfriend and it won't work out, or maybe she'll realize the grass isn't greener. You have to think carefully about whether you really would want her back in that scenario.


Absolutely correct. This happens, and especially when the BH is out every night looking good, having fun, and looking forward to single life. You need to decide what YOUR terms are for reconciliation.

Shut your wife out on everything but child issues, and project "happy happy happy" even if you don't feel it. Follow through on the self-optimization program.


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## Decorum

Kazama,

I think you have received a lot of good advice here, I hope you take it to heart, it is the men who take action that do the best here, whatever the outcome.

Speaking of outcomes I would do my best to a void a separation unless it is required for divorce. Especially if it is a "I need some time and space" type separation.

The outcome for open marriage = I get to bang my boyfriends without any consequence to my marriage, family or lifestyle.

The outcome of a separation without divorce = I get to bang my boyfriends without any consequence to my marriage, family or lifestyle, and later I can come back and say "I made the biggest mistake of my life, lets reconcile."

A separation is just a cheaters sex vacation. Later she will say "yes I had sex with him but we were separated."

I don't think you should make this easy on her at all, not saying you should go out of your way to make it hard either, but she wants out she bears the brunt of the change, period.

And don't agree to any half way measures like separation.

I do understand that in some places separation is required for a given time before you can divorce.

Hey I wish you well, you deserve better.
Take care!


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## treyvion

Decorum said:


> Kazama,
> 
> I think you have received a lot of good advice here, I hope you take it to heart, it is the men who take action that do the best here, whatever the outcome.
> 
> Speaking of outcomes I would do my best to a void a separation unless it is required for divorce. Especially if it is a "I need some time and space" type separation.
> 
> The outcome for open marriage = I get to bang my boyfriends without any consequence to my marriage, family or lifestyle.
> 
> The outcome of a separation without divorce = I get to bang my boyfriends without any consequence to my marriage, family or lifestyle, and later I can come back and say "I made the biggest mistake of my life, lets reconcile."


NO. On the seperation, the cheater is to provide all phone passwords, facebook, email, twitter account info's and be totally transparent. They are not getting a free pass to continue cheating.



Decorum said:


> A separation is just a cheaters sex vacation. Later she will say "yes I had sex with him but we were separated."
> 
> I don't think you should make this easy on her at all, not saying you should go out of your way to make it hard either, but she wants out she bears the brunt of the change, period.
> 
> And don't agree to any half way measures like separation.
> 
> I do understand that in some places separation is required for a given time before you can divorce.
> 
> Hey I wish you well, you deserve better.
> Take care!


NO. "Ain't" none of this I was having sex with him while we're seperated bull crap. If she cheats again she's done. And during the time period she can sit and figure out why she shouldn't have been cheating, I'm going to do a single run for a while if I feel like it. It's not to throw in her face, but more to restore myself.


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## Decorum

treyvion said:


> NO. On the seperation, the cheater is to provide all phone passwords, facebook, email, twitter account info's and be totally transparent. They are not getting a free pass to continue cheating.
> 
> 
> 
> NO. "Ain't" none of this I was having sex with him while we're seperated bull crap. If she cheats again she's done. And during the time period she can sit and figure out why she shouldn't have been cheating, I'm going to do a single run for a while if I feel like it. It's not to throw in her face, but more to restore myself.



Honestly Treyvion,
I am not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me. :scratchhead:


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## treyvion

Decorum said:


> Honestly Treyvion,
> I am not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me. :scratchhead:


I gave a viewpoint where they seperate, she's on her own. He has to be able to monitor the fact she's not using the time for cheating.

If he wants to cheat for restorative reasons, so be it. 

Later at some point in time perhaps they can work it out. Over time she will realize the help she was recieving and it's value will grow over time if it's important to her.

If it's not they go on their seperate ways.

I'm not a fan of this seperation so the cheater can continue their cheating.


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## Decorum

treyvion said:


> I gave a viewpoint where they seperate, she's on her own. He has to be able to monitor the fact she's not using the time for cheating.
> 
> If he wants to cheat for restorative reasons, so be it.
> 
> Later at some point in time perhaps they can work it out. Over time she will realize the help she was recieving and it's value will grow over time if it's important to her.
> 
> If it's not they go on their seperate ways.
> 
> I'm not a fan of this seperation so the cheater can continue their cheating.


Got it. Thank you. I hope you understand from my post that I do not favor separation but think that if it gets to that point it should go to divorce in most cases.

But Kazama, clearly has options, and it does not all have to go his wife's way, good points.

Take care!


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## Kazama

update:

So I mentioned that I'm not moving out, and we have pretty much talked about her moving out.

I just now read up a little on the 180 no mr nice guy. pretty slick set of rules. will tighten up my behavior based on the guide(s).

since the talk last week where I was set on separating she is now "confused". and is apparently doing some soul searching.

All the meantime, I have started sleeping in another room, and we have broken up the week where she has our daughter half the week and I the other.

it's weird because she still sets up lunches and dinner outings, and all I can think about right now is running away from her as far as possible.

the question is, should I set a timeline for her to vacate the house? example: suggest to her that she has a month to be confused, and then she either needs to be on my team or start actively looking for a place to stay?


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## Sanity

OP,

Show your wife this. Seriously.


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## anchorwatch

Is she still continuing contact with the OM?


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## Decorum

anchorwatch said:


> Is she still continuing contact with the OM?


That is the big question.
Of course when a WW says she is "confused" (and we hear it all the time) the answer is usually a big fat YES.

Op she wanted to keep you on the stringer and sort her catch at the end of the day.

Thats against the rules.

I dont imagine you want to do the "pick me, pick me" dance.

Im sorry op but "confused" is a (sometimes) subconscious delay tactic. 

Its sucks, but consequences can help clear her head.

Is there anyone you can expose her "confusion" too?

Sorry its been a while since I read your posts.

Take care!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75

No, Kazama. She isn't "confused"...Well, she is, but not in the way she is trying to make you believe. What she is CONFUSED about is the fact that she THOUGHT she could get you on board with seeing other people while still being married. You know, enjoying the amenities of being married, but in the dating pool. She is CONFUSED because you aren't towing the line, so to speak. She has to rethink her game plan, now. What should you do? STAND FIRM! You don't want a wife who is not faithful to YOU, correct? Don't waver in your resolve. As far as a time frame... I really can't say, but I wouldn't give her TOO long, IF you still want to remain married to her. In the meantime, boyfriend has to go, NOW, no matter what, IF there is even the slightest chance she wants to remain married. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.


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## tom67

Decorum said:


> That is the big question.
> Of course when a WW says she is "confused" (and we hear it all the time) the answer is usually a big fat YES.
> 
> Op she wanted to keep you on the stringer and sort her catch at the end of the day.
> 
> Thats against the rules.
> 
> I dont imagine you want to do the "pick me, pick me" dance.
> 
> Im sorry op but "confused" is a (sometimes) subconscious delay tactic.
> 
> Its sucks, but consequences can help clear her head.
> 
> Is there anyone you can expose her "confusion" too?
> 
> Sorry its been a while since I read your posts.
> 
> Take care!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree::iagree:
Truth!


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## The Cro-Magnon

nvm


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## John Lee

Maricha75 said:


> No, Kazama. She isn't "confused"...Well, she is, but not in the way she is trying to make you believe. What she is CONFUSED about is the fact that she THOUGHT she could get you on board with seeing other people while still being married. You know, enjoying the amenities of being married, but in the dating pool. She is CONFUSED because you aren't towing the line, so to speak. She has to rethink her game plan, now. What should you do? STAND FIRM! You don't want a wife who is not faithful to YOU, correct? Don't waver in your resolve. As far as a time frame... I really can't say, but I wouldn't give her TOO long, IF you still want to remain married to her. In the meantime, boyfriend has to go, NOW, no matter what, IF there is even the slightest chance she wants to remain married. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.


Agreed. I would actually say she is "confused" by the fact that there are actually consequences for her actions -- doesn't sound like she is used to that. "Hey wait a minute, maybe I can't have my cake and eat it too! That's so CONFUSING."


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## John Lee

She also may be "confused" about having to actually face what might be on the other side of the door you're showing her. You know, the reality behind the fantasy.


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## Kazama

Wanted to come back and thank everyone for all the support!

1. I ended up hanging in there and followed advice of the "no more nice guy" material.
2. Went to a couple sessions of marriage counseling, which also helped a bit.
3. Luckily all of her friends were on my side, and had a ton of support in that aspect. Thank goodness, as i thought i come off kind of like a jerk in their eyes...heh
4. I pretty much gave up my hobbies so we could share a common hobby of endurance training (running/triathlons)
5. Also luckily the other guy turned out to be a huge jerk off. Ended up asking her to borrow money!

I do not suspect that the two of them ever actually met up; that would set me off in another direction. I trust the answers she gives me, and besides, the dude lives five hours away, and she is way busy to be able to sneak off.

But it came down to asking her to step up and cut ties....stop talking to the dude, or we are done. She agreed to cease and desist...and we have been working on the relationship since. And since then I truly believe she is back in love with me.


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## DoF

Above is great to hear OP.

Glad your wife smartened up a bit. Good for you (and her).


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## anchorwatch

Good news and good work, Kazama. 

Best of luck to you and your family.


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## Caribbean Man

Kazama said:


> Wanted to come back and thank everyone for all the support!
> 
> 1. I ended up hanging in there and followed advice of the "no more nice guy" material.
> 2. Went to a couple sessions of marriage counseling, which also helped a bit.
> 3. Luckily all of her friends were on my side, and had a ton of support in that aspect. Thank goodness, as i thought i come off kind of like a jerk in their eyes...heh
> 4. I pretty much gave up my hobbies so we could share a common hobby of endurance training (running/triathlons)
> 5. Also luckily the other guy turned out to be a huge jerk off. Ended up asking her to borrow money!
> 
> I do not suspect that the two of them ever actually met up; that would set me off in another direction. I trust the answers she gives me, and besides, the dude lives five hours away, and she is way busy to be able to sneak off.
> 
> But it came down to asking her to step up and cut ties....stop talking to the dude, or we are done. She agreed to cease and desist...and we have been working on the relationship since. And since then I truly believe she is back in love with me.


Thanks for the update and glad to see that you were brave enough to grab the bull by it's horns.

Good that things have worked out , your relationship is back on track and both of you are working on it.

Also noteworthy is that you took responsibility or yourself , took the advice given in the No More Nice Guy literature, and it contributed to your success.

Always tickles me when some say those books are a bunch of crap. I am reminded that a person's perception is very often, their reality.


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## Kazama

I am also grateful for a few friends that stepped into the picture and tried to help out. One of my best friends called me every couple days to check on me.


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## jaquen

Kazama said:


> Wanted to come back and thank everyone for all the support!
> 
> 1. I ended up hanging in there and followed advice of the "no more nice guy" material.
> 2. Went to a couple sessions of marriage counseling, which also helped a bit.
> 3. Luckily all of her friends were on my side, and had a ton of support in that aspect. Thank goodness, as i thought i come off kind of like a jerk in their eyes...heh
> 4. I pretty much gave up my hobbies so we could share a common hobby of endurance training (running/triathlons)
> 5. Also luckily the other guy turned out to be a huge jerk off. Ended up asking her to borrow money!
> 
> I do not suspect that the two of them ever actually met up; that would set me off in another direction. I trust the answers she gives me, and besides, the dude lives five hours away, and she is way busy to be able to sneak off.
> 
> But it came down to asking her to step up and cut ties....stop talking to the dude, or we are done. She agreed to cease and desist...and we have been working on the relationship since. And since then I truly believe she is back in love with me.


To be honest this reads to me like her escape boyfriend went bust and she settled back for her safer option. 

Just sounds like you got thrown a couple of bones and lost some personal hobbies in the process.

Is she making love to you regularly? Is she respecting you? Complimenting and adoring you? Can she not keep her hands off you? Is she passionate in your exchanges? What about her behavior says that she's "back in love"?


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## murphy5

it IS fully possible for a spouse to get really confused and do unexplainable things. Sometimes the lack of communications builds and builds and she has a fight or flight reaction. It is not always her planning an affair.

Sounds like you two are making good strides. Physical activity together can be very bonding, where you two help and encourage each other to attain physical goals. And that spills over into the rest of the relationship too...giving her space to achieve some hard goals, but supporting her while she does.

It sounds to me like you are making wonderful progress. Obviously you want to monitor if new inappropriate communications start up, but I think you are out of the woods.


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## Boxing judge

Get your finances in order and the divorce papers ready. This girl doesn't respect you and she never will. Once a woman loses respect for a man the relationship is over, your wife is a low quality woman RUN

In the long run this relationship will end in tears if you decide to stay with her. This woman is broken and you can't fix her


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## kennethk

Good luck OP...
You're gonna need it!


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## Kazama

thanks for the warnings all!!! but we will to try to make it work...giving up is the last resort.

regarding the escape from her boyfriend going bust...it was not a question of "if" it was going to happen...rather "when". She was living a fantasy due to real world problems...and am glad she woke up when she did.

I do love her, and i do notice (from her behavior) that she loves me again. and we are back to making the sex.

I have learned much from this experience, and if the same situation surfaces again; I will treat it much differently. but like i said, i have to give it another shot...my 4 year old daughter is in the mix. there is more to consider when there are kids involved. of course the sole reason to stay together is not because of the kid; but I imagine it is so much easier to throw in the towel when there are no children involved.


----------

