# My wife has seemingly lost interest in me, sexually



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Hello,

This is my first post. Just found this site in a desperate attempt to find answers. 

I've been married almost 20 years. Prior to marriage, we were EXTREMELY sexual. Unfortunately, as soon as we got married things changed dramatically and almost instantly. It was due to my wife being 3 months pregnant on our wedding night. She was in the typical nausea stage, so she obviously wasn't feeling like having sex. After the baby came birth control. That killed her sex drive. So, I never enjoyed the typical "honeymooners" phase. At best, we've had sex 2 times per week since we got married, and it has become about 1-2 times per month. Even those 1 or 2 times per month are pretty dull because she mostly does it for me, but isn't all that interested. There's no passion. There's no excitement. It's pretty much a quickie every time.

On occasion she comes out of her shell and we talk dirty, get a bit freaky, and it's awesome. Unfortunately, that's about 2-3 times a year.

We have talked about the problem many times. She knows we're not having sex anywhere near what I want, but I hate pushing her to have sex because I know she's not interested and then it makes me look like I'm just a sex maniac(which I am, but in a good way). 

I try to be very romantic for her, and sometimes it turns her on. It's very hit & miss though. We have date nights regularly. We are best friends. We love being together. She is still absolutely beautiful in my eyes and turns me on like no other. But the lack of sex has driven me to a point of wondering if it's unrealistic for me to ever expect her to warm back up to me. 20 years is a long time to wait for her to come back around.

There are more details, but I'm sure those will come out with questions from anyone willing to offer some advice.

Thanks


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

When there are issues with sex, it's usually because there are problems in the rest of the relationship. Fix the relationship and the sex will follow.

What other problems are in your relationship?

How many hours a week do you and your wife spend together doing date-like things, just the two of you? (Date like means everything from the two of you going to a walk and talking to dinner out. Movies out do not count because you are not talking and paying attention to each other.)

.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Your story sounds somewhat like mine - as soon as we got married, the sex essentially stopped. There was no good reason for it, though. After 20 years of pounding my head against the brick wall of her non-existent libido (and trying everything, including marriage counselling), I divorced her and started having a GREAT life again.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> When there are issues with sex, it's usually because there are problems in the rest of the relationship. Fix the relationship and the sex will follow.
> 
> What other problems are in your relationship?
> 
> ...


We do things together on a very regular basis. There aren't really any "problems" in our relationship, at least not that I know of. We've had a very rocky past, but we both agree that we have gotten through those things and for the most part our relationship is better than it's ever been. It's just a sexless marriage, and it's taking it's toll.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Married but Happy said:


> Your story sounds somewhat like mine - as soon as we got married, the sex essentially stopped. There was no good reason for it, though. After 20 years of pounding my head against the brick wall of her non-existent libido (and trying everything, including marriage counselling), I divorced her and started having a GREAT life again.


The thought alone is frightening. We have kids and I'm terrified of what it would do to them.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LuvIsTuff said:


> We do things together on a very regular basis. There aren't really any "problems" in our relationship, at least not that I know of. We've had a very rocky past, but we both agree that we have gotten through those things and for the most part our relationship is better than it's ever been. It's just a sexless marriage, and it's taking it's toll.


Well, I asked a specific question in a specific way for a reason. So I'll ask again.

How many hours a week do you and your wife spend together doing date-like things, just the two of you? (Date like means everything from the two of you going to a walk and talking to dinner out. Movies out do not count because you are not talking and paying attention to each other.)

If you will answer my question, I might be able to help you out.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

What were the "Rocky" things about and were they resolved to BOTH of your satisfaction?

Do you work out? Are you Overweight...is she? 

Physical & Sexual attraction is not a choice..you are or you aren't. This can be fixed..but you have to get at the heart of the issue first. 

EleGirl's question is VERY important.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

There are a few things you can try - they work occasionally, but not frequently or consistently. First, read the book "No More Mister Nice Guy" - search and you'll find a free pdf or can purchase on Amazon. Also, you can follow "The 180" program, which is mostly for yourself, but may increase your wife's interest in you (Note: while this is originally directed at dealing with wayward spouses, it can work just as well with uninterested partners):

The 180

1. Don’t pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.

2. No frequent phone calls.

3. Don’t point out “good points” in marriage.

4. Don’t follow her/him around the house.

5. Don’t encourage or initiate discussion about the future.

6. Don’t ask for help from the family members of your wayward partner.

7. Don’t ask for reassurances.

8. Don’t buy or give gifts.

9. Don’t schedule dates together.

10. Don’t keep saying, “I Love You!” Because if you really think about it, he/she is, at this particular moment, not very loveable.

11. Do more than act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life!

12. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.

13. Don’t sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy!

14. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don’t push any issue, no matter how much you want to!

15. If you’re in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested.

16. Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that “they (the wayward partner)” are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack there of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life…without them!

17. Don’t be nasty, angry or even cold – Just pull yourself back. Don’t always be so available…for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you’re missing.

18. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Make yourself be someone they would want to be around, not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self-assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.

19. All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation!

20. Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control. YOURSELF!

21. Don’t be overly enthusiastic.

22. Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all!

23. Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Hear what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more!

24. Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.

25. Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil.

26. Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.

27. Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write.

28. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy.

29. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It’s not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don’t care.

30. Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior.

31. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It “ain’t over till it’s over!”

32. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message.

33. When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person. This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don’t work out with the affair partner.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

or try mmslp, depends on you, which is more appropriate, both can be useful.

Try to get into better shape and look/dress better. Don't pout or whine about anything.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> Well, I asked a specific question in a specific way for a reason. So I'll ask again.
> 
> How many hours a week do you and your wife spend together doing date-like things, just the two of you? (Date like means everything from the two of you going to a walk and talking to dinner out. Movies out do not count because you are not talking and paying attention to each other.)
> 
> If you will answer my question, I might be able to help you out.


"date like things"...... On a weekly basis, I'd say less than 1 hour. We try to have a "date night" once a month if possible. Other than our date night, our kids are usually with us.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

MarriedDude said:


> What were the "Rocky" things about and were they resolved to BOTH of your satisfaction?
> 
> Do you work out? Are you Overweight...is she?
> 
> ...


Yes, I'm overweight. Not grossly, but 20-30lbs. She's slightly overweight, but it doesn't bother me or cause me to be remotely turned off to her.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

This is pretty common. Women and men are very different. Once motherhood hit she not longer sees herself as "sexual". It's not personal to you, it's her view of the world. Talking endlessly is not the answer.

Act attractively (see books you were referred to)... And try to bring sexuality back into her realm... It's easier said than done but is something that takes time... It starts with you and your attitude.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

how many kids and what are their ages?


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Yes, I'm overweight. Not grossly, but 20-30lbs. She's slightly overweight, but it doesn't bother me or cause me to be remotely turned off to her.


being overweight or out of shape will cause you to have less energy for day to day life...let alone...more energy for each other. 

When it comes to women (IME..NAWALT) -they are more concerned with their own bodies than yours. If she doesn't feel comfortable in her skin...she won't be very interested in showing you much of it. 

On another note..."trying" to have a date night once per month is NOWHERE near enough. It can be as simple as taking a walk together after dinner every night. Anything thats gets you that one on one time to really SEE and HEAR each other. When you were dating her I bet you were together one on one more than once per month...

For the intimacy to form, you are going to need to invest in your relationship...by investing, I mean time. Thats the only thing of value we really have (but don't get me started on that). You can tell what a person values by determining what they spend the most time and energy on. 

So many people think what they need is more sex....so wrong...the sex..either lots of it daily...or lack there of, is a symptom of the health of your marriage. You are the male..YOU will need to lead here. You will need to make changes that foster the growth of love and intimacy. Remember back in the beginning or your relationship....didn't you pursue her (an action)? Didn't you make time for her? Didn't she respond to this by making herself available to you? By allowing herself to be pursued?

Your marriage to your mate should be one of the, if not THE most important relationship in your life. Your married, a mated pair...for life. Friends come and go as you each grow apart, Kids grow and move onto their own lives...In your marriage you two can/should be growing together. So when your old as dirt...you will have each other. 

I'm a betting man myself...I would bet HEAVY on the odds of your sex like going gangbusters...if you focus on the task of growing together with your mate. 

I will now put my soap box away....I wish you all the best that a marriage can offer you...


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Fozzy said:


> how many kids and what are their ages?


2 kids, 18 & 6


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
this part is worrisome. I understand things changing, but a sudden change with marriage sounds depressingly like a bait and switch.

I know that in a great many situations problems with a couple's sex life are due to all sorts of issues (with one or both ) but a sudden change with marriage is suspicious.




LuvIsTuff said:


> Hello,
> 
> snip
> 
> I've been married almost 20 years. Prior to marriage, we were EXTREMELY sexual. Unfortunately, as soon as we got married things changed dramatically and almost instantly.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Why after 20 years of this are you looking for answers? No matter how many hours a week or dates you go on will help the resentment you must have for her.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

I've done everything I can think of and I've even done everything she has told me I needed to do. I'm here because I'm desperate for answers.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

@richardsharp This isn't sudden. Its progressively gotten worse over a 20 year period. We're too young to have sex twice a month. I know that doesn't qualify as a sexless marriage, but it seems like it because she's just not in to me anymore(at least that's how it feels). I don't question her love for me. But it's not a sexual/passionate love. Its more of a "I love who you are as a dad and a man".


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Married but Happy said:


> There are a few things you can try - they work occasionally, but not frequently or consistently. First, read the book "No More Mister Nice Guy" - search and you'll find a free pdf or can purchase on Amazon. Also, you can follow "The 180" program, which is mostly for yourself, but may increase your wife's interest in you (Note: while this is originally directed at dealing with *wayward *spouses, it can work just as well with uninterested partners):
> 
> The 180
> 
> ...


His wife is not cheating. She is not a wayward spouse... The 180 posted above is used to separate from the WS until the WS agrees to give up an affair. It serves to eventually break the betrayed spouses emotional bond to the WS if the WS never does give up the affair.

It will not help to fix a marriage in which needs are not being met.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LuvIsTuff said:


> "date like things"...... On a weekly basis, I'd say less than 1 hour. We try to have a "date night" once a month if possible. Other than our date night, our kids are usually with us.


This is the kind of answer that I expected.

You and your wife are not spending enough one on one time together. What does that do? It breaks the emotional bond. usually it's the woman who loses that bond first.

To maintain a good, strong emotional bond, a couple in a good marriage needs to spend about 15 hours a week together, just the two of them, without the kids, doing things in which they are focused on each other.

That's usually about 2 hours most nights and a long date or two on the weekend.

Your wife's need for emotional and non-sexual intimacy are not being met. I have no doubt that some of your needs, besides sexual, are not being met either.

There is a saying that, while simplistic, makes a point. "A woman needs a reason to have sex, a man needs a place."

What gives a woman that reason is if her non-sexual intimacy needs are met and she feels loved and cherished.

This is very fixable. Get the books "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters". Read the books yourself first because they will give you words and ideas that will help you talk to her.

Then get her to read them with you and work through what they say to do. work on your marriage together using what the book says.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

If you hit the weights and lose the extra weight, you can come closer to the "V" torso ideal that turns women on. It is an unconscious factor. If you get into shape others, including women will we notice the change, you self regard will rise. Your sex ranking can shoot up quite a few notches.

You don't care if your wife is overweight. That is a cope out. She may even accept the extra fat as a sex barrier. If your wife lost a lot of weight an started paying attention to her looks, that might be a sign of renewed interest in her sex ranking. At that point you might not be of interest to her. Paradox. The boat is dead in the water but if one of you shape up the other might be left behind.

A lot of times women don't appreciate wordy men. Grunt more. Give meaningful looks. Don't be predictable. Do things for you. For if you are in close proximity but without much intimacy, maybe you should be more active in cultivating your interests. That doesn't mean you stop dating your wife.

Also, don't engage in covert contracts, such as dinner out leads to sex.

Read the threads of men who have changed their marriages:

Bagdon, neuklas


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

If your 18 year old still lives with you, use that to your advantage. The 18 year old can watch your 6 year old while the two of you get some quality time together.


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## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> this part is worrisome. I understand things changing, but a sudden change with marriage sounds depressingly like a bait and switch.
> 
> I know that in a great many situations problems with a couple's sex life are due to all sorts of issues (with one or both ) but a sudden change with marriage is suspicious.


Hhmmmm....... Is it suspicious? Or..... Could it be that as soon as they were married, well, BOTH let their guards down? Maybe he just kind of let the romance, or the pillow talk, or WHATEVER hooked her go? Give me a break with this bait and switch thing. No one consciously does that, IMO. 

I'm here to tell you, my exH changed seemingly as soon as we got married. Or if I really look back, it was more gradual.

OP, have YOU changed since marriage too? Kids are hard, life is hard. Everyone gets less loving if you're not living consciously.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Dude. Get snipped.

I LOVE my vas. And she can get off the bc.

Many women love it when their man takes the hit for them and makes their life less complicated.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

weightlifter said:


> Dude. Get snipped.
> 
> I LOVE my vas. And she can get off the bc.
> 
> Many women love it when their man takes the hit for them and makes their life less complicated.


And some find that it makes no difference, they were just not interested before and they still aren't. [/flashback]

If OP is certain that he will never want more children then by all means go and have a vas but having one thinking that it might reinstated the sex in a marriage sets you up for a biiiigggg shock. According to a friend of mine of course.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

intheory said:


> Any chance she can get off of the hormonal birth control that is killing her libido (as mentioned in your original post).
> 
> I could compose a lengthy, boring diatribe about what HBC did to me, my mother, and a close friend. I'll spare you that.
> 
> But, read around, even just on this site --- and you'll often find people admitting that it can have a major effect on their libidoes/sex life.


She got off birth control 16 years ago. I wore hats until my vasectomy 7 years ago.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> This is the kind of answer that I expected.
> 
> You and your wife are not spending enough one on one time together. What does that do? It breaks the emotional bond. usually it's the woman who loses that bond first.
> 
> ...


I'm not so sure 2 hours a day is realistic, but obviously we can do better than 1 date night per month. Also, I'm happy to report that I did something seemingly insignificant for her yesterday and she pounced on me when we went to bed :smthumbup: Best night we've had in 6 months.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

If you're certain that your relationship with your wife is great, that she feels loved and cherished and wanted, that you have maintained yourself in an attractive way, that you don't present yourself as a needy clingy man, then your wife has lost touch with her sexuality.

I think a lot of women don't realize that a heathy vibrant sex life doesn't ....just.....happen. It takes some effort. Marriages in which the sex life is vibrant have both partner who view their sex life as a very important aspect of their relationship. 

Ask your wife where she places a vibrant sex life in order of priorities?

You just started another thread in which you seek advice on getting your wife to mix things up a bit so that there is more to sex than simple PIV to orgasm. This can start with you and I think this may be a part of the total boredom and routine your sex life brings. 

You asked why your wife wouldn't want you to go down on her so you build up for a second erection and that way your second time would last much longer. You need to ask your wife why not. Perhaps she has preconceived notions that are inaccurate? Perhaps she has body image issues so she can't get into cunnilingus, this is pretty common. Perhaps she is totally unaware that you are able to go again at all? My question is why are you asking a forum and not your wife?

In total, it strikes me that you and your wife don't talk very openly about sex. That it is a very difficult subject to talk about and you both might be expecting some mind reading. 

So this is where you start. Start talking about sex. What you like, what you want, what you want to do. Start taking sex out of the bedroom, whenever possible. Start making a sexual bucket list with your wife.

Great sex doesn't just happen. You have to make it happen and you do that by talking, planing, agreeing, exploring and educating.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

weightlifter said:


> Dude. Get snipped.
> 
> I LOVE my vas. And she can get off the bc.
> 
> Many women love it when their man takes the hit for them and makes their life less complicated.


Unless the OP is absolutely sure he does not want any more children, he should not have the V done. Keep in mind that if this marriage ends, he may want another LTR and being snipped would pose a significant challenge if that were the case.

Also note that some women instinctively find a sterile partner less attractive. I don't see enough about a cause to justify this.

The OP just needs to sit down with his wife and clear the air:
* His needs are XYZ (frequency, variety)
* He will do his best to meet her needs create an environment conducive to the intimate relationship he needs
* They both need to hold her accountable for meeting his needs.

Let me explain that last point before I get skewered. I don't mean she should just put out without regard for her own needs. But she must share the same goals.

She must communicate her needs. Once he starts meeting them, she needs to start meeting his. She cannot be in a place where her needs are a priority over his. She cannot take an attitude that there will be no sex until she damn well feels like it, or his needs are a lower priority than girl time or being a team mom. If she feels that way this marriage is dead already.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I'm not so sure 2 hours a day is realistic, but obviously we can do better than 1 date night per month. Also, I'm happy to report that I did something seemingly insignificant for her yesterday and she pounced on me when we went to bed :smthumbup: Best night we've had in 6 months.


With children it can be hard to get 2 hours a day. But if you really work at it, you could restructure your days to get as much as possible each day.

Even sitting together, snuggling and talking is quality time that builds on the non-sexual intimacy that is very important. Couples usually do this by taking time after the kids are in bed (or at least in their rooms for the night).

Get the books "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs". Read and work through them with her. They tell you how to rebuild the passion in your marriage.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> If you're certain that your relationship with your wife is great, that she feels loved and cherished and wanted, that you have maintained yourself in an attractive way, that you don't present yourself as a needy clingy man, then your wife has lost touch with her sexuality.
> 
> I think a lot of women don't realize that a heathy vibrant sex life doesn't ....just.....happen. It takes some effort. Marriages in which the sex life is vibrant have both partner who view their sex life as a very important aspect of their relationship.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your input. There are a couple of things you mentioned that I want to respond to.

"Ask your wife where she places a vibrant sex life in order of priorities?" We have discussed this many times. It's not even on her list, much less high on her list. It not important to her. She has stated that many times.

"You asked why your wife wouldn't want you to go down on her so you build up for a second erection and that way your second time would last much longer. You need to ask your wife why not." "My question is why are you asking a forum and not your wife?" "In total, it strikes me that you and your wife don't talk very openly about sex." I am here because we HAVE talked about this many times and it doesn't help or change. I'm here as a last resort, looking for answers.

"Perhaps she has body image issues so she can't get into cunnilingus, this is pretty common." She does have "body image" issues. That is a huge issue and we even talked about that yesterday. She's 5'5", 140lbs. She's by no means fat, but she thinks she is and that's a big problem. As for her inability to get in to cunnilingus, on the rare occasion that she lets me go down, she almost always reaches orgasm, and it's usually much faster(3-5 minutes) than it is with regular PIV sex, which takes her about 10-15 minutes to have a "good one". Unless she's had a stressful day or has a lot on her mind from work, she doesn't have a problem reaching orgasm in any way, regardless of what we do.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> When there are issues with sex, it's usually because there are problems in the rest of the relationship. Fix the relationship and the sex will follow.
> 
> What other problems are in your relationship?
> 
> ...


I totally disagree. She figures she got what she wanted and doesn't have to have sex anymore. There's alot of women that do that. She knows now you have to give her half of everthing to get rid of her, so you won't, you'll just keep on putting up with it.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> With children it can be hard to get 2 hours a day. But if you really work at it, you could restructure your days to get as much as possible each day.
> 
> Even sitting together, snuggling and talking is quality time that builds on the non-sexual intimacy that is very important. Couples usually do this by taking time after the kids are in bed (or at least in their rooms for the night).
> 
> Get the books "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs". Read and work through them with her. They tell you how to rebuild the passion in your marriage.


On your advice, we went out together for almost 2 hours last night. It was a surprise to her. At about 5:00, I told her to go get dressed and lets go do something together. Immediately my daughter went to get her shoes on. When I told her she wasn't going, it was a shock to her and to my wife. I made my 18 year old son watch our little girl. We went to Panera, had some soup and talked non stop the whole time. We actually got in to some very deep conversations and my wife teared up twice, talking about things that are important to her in her life. All in all, it was a good night. I told her we needed to do things like that a lot more often and she agreed.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

jb02157 said:


> I totally disagree. She figures she got what she wanted and doesn't have to have sex anymore. There's alot of women that do that. She knows now you have to give her half of everthing to get rid of her, so you won't, you'll just keep on putting up with it.


I'm not sure she thinks that way. 1/2 of what I have isn't much.... With that said, I do think that once we got married, she stopped trying to impress me. When we were dating, she would do anything for me and went out of her way to get my attention. I'm sure that's a common problem. She did what she had to do to win me over. Now, she doesn't have to work any more. She is mistaken though. I'm not going to keep being the only one willing to work at our marriage. 20 years is a long ass time to put up with not being pursued by your spouse.


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## Guitarman07 (Jun 21, 2014)

MarriedDude said:


> LuvIsTuff said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, I'm overweight. Not grossly, but 20-30lbs. She's slightly overweight, but it doesn't bother me or cause me to be remotely turned off to her.
> ...



I can't agree with this more. 100% dead on married dude. I've been married 15 years together for 19 and this past year re-"awakened" our relationship. You can look at my past posts for more info if interested but long story short (here

It's really up to you to try and find that spark to reignite your relationship. Just like your courting days. 

Good post married dude, sounds like you and I may have similar situations.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> His wife is not cheating. She is not a wayward spouse... The 180 posted above is used to separate from the WS until the WS agrees to give up an affair. It serves to eventually break the betrayed spouses emotional bond to the WS if the WS never does give up the affair.
> 
> *It will not help to fix a marriage in which needs are not being met*.


I completely disagree. I did acknowledge that the 180 was originally for waywards, but I am convinced it can work with a spouse who has lost interest. While it prepares you to move on, it will be noticed by the disinterested spouse, and may inspire changes on their part to preserve the marriage.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I'm not sure she thinks that way. 1/2 of what I have isn't much.... With that said, I do think that once we got married, she stopped trying to impress me. When we were dating, she would do anything for me and went out of her way to get my attention. I'm sure that's a common problem. She did what she had to do to win me over. Now, she doesn't have to work any more. She is mistaken though. I'm not going to keep being the only one willing to work at our marriage. 20 years is a long ass time to put up with not being pursued by your spouse.


Since she was 3 months pregnant when you married, I suspect she went into mommy-mode right away. She wasn't trying to get your attention or to impress you because she had a child who needed her attention and energy, and she probably had little left for you. That is not uncommon with new moms.

Don't discount that, because it most certainly played a part in where you are now and if you discount it, then you aren't looking at the whole picture.

She responded quite well when you took her out of the house and away from the 6 year old, so consider that as part of the picture. She is apparently into you and into sex when she's not in mommy-mode. This is important info for you going forward, yes?


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> I completely disagree. I did acknowledge that the 180 was originally for waywards, but I am convinced it can work with a spouse who has lost interest. While it prepares you to move on, it will be noticed by the disinterested spouse, and may inspire changes on their part to preserve the marriage.


Except in the OP's case, when he took her on a date, they had the best conversation they've had in years and she was happy to have sex with him later.

So, him distancing himself in a 180 would have gotten him a cold bed instead of the the good experience they actually had.


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

so seems that she is LD since begining ...
is she selfish too?
does she have any trauma in her life ?


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I'm not sure she thinks that way. 1/2 of what I have isn't much.... With that said, I do think that once we got married, she stopped trying to impress me. When we were dating, she would do anything for me and went out of her way to get my attention. I'm sure that's a common problem. She did what she had to do to win me over. Now, she doesn't have to work any more. She is mistaken though. I'm not going to keep being the only one willing to work at our marriage. 20 years is a long ass time to put up with not being pursued by your spouse.


In a way, that's that same idea I was relating. She figures she has you, now she doesn't have to work at it anymore, or do the things you want to keep the marriage going.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

jb02157 said:


> In a way, that's that same idea I was relating. She figures she has you, now she doesn't have to work at it anymore, or do the things you want to keep the marriage going.


From her perspective, she might argue the same thing. "After we married, he doesn't try to woo me and win me over and go out on dates to keep the marriage going, AND he discounted how hard it was to give birth and care for a new baby 6 months after we married..."

We don't know her perspective. Seems like she immediately responded to one date where they were away from the kids and focusing on actual conversation with each other. 

1 hour a week of "alone time" is hardly enough to keep a marriage going.

I'm just bringing this up because demonizing his wife isn't going to help the OP or his marriage at all. Feeding him some lines about bait and switch after marriage isn't going to give him clarity on what's happening with his marriage. Treating her like she's a cheater isn't going to help his marriage.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

norajane said:


> I'm just bringing this up because demonizing his wife isn't going to help the OP or his marriage at all. Feeding him some lines about bait and switch after marriage isn't going to give him clarity on what's happening with his marriage. Treating her like she's a cheater isn't going to help his marriage.


I do think that she needs to held accountable for what she's doing. Bait and switch is very real for many men and I think that's truly what's going on here.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

DTO said:


> Unless the OP is absolutely sure he does not want any more children, he should not have the V done. Keep in mind that if this marriage ends, he may want another LTR and being snipped would pose a significant challenge if that were the case.
> 
> Also note that some women instinctively find a sterile partner less attractive. I don't see enough about a cause to justify this.
> 
> ...


I had the dreaded V 7 years ago. I'm 42 and no matter what, I'm not wanting any more kids.

We've talked many times over the years about her needs. I was lousy at meeting them for a long time, but that has changed dramatically. I finally "got it" about 4-5 years ago. I am uber affectionate, romantic, etc... It's actually to a point where some have told me it's too much. I'm trying to find a middle ground.

With all that said, nothing has ever changed on her end. I work very hard to meet her emotional needs, but there's little no reciprocation. If there was, I wouldn't be here looking for advice. For some reason, she just refuses to try.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

mmslp.... Your only other option. If it doesn't work, then D has to be on the table.... or accept your reality


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I I work very hard to meet her emotional needs, but there's little no reciprocation. If there was, I wouldn't be here looking for advice. For some reason, she just refuses to try.


You can work hard to meet her needs, but still not meet them. Is her general state one of happiness and satisfaction? If not you are not meeting her needs.

If you are meeting her needs but tolerating that she does not meet your needs, you have to stop being a doormat.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

norajane said:


> Except in the OP's case, when he took her on a date, they had the best conversation they've had in years and she was happy to have sex with him later.
> 
> So, him distancing himself in a 180 would have gotten him a cold bed instead of the the good experience they actually had.


I said we had a long, deep conversation. I didn't say we had sex. We didn't..... I didn't want to try because then she'd think my date was only for sex. She obviously didn't pursue it either.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I said we had a long, deep conversation. I didn't say we had sex. We didn't..... I didn't want to try because then she'd think my date was only for sex. She obviously didn't pursue it either.


Yes, but you also said you did something relatively insignificant for her and she "pounced" on you that night in bed.

Obviously, doing things for her creates some goodwill toward you and interest in sex.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Hicks said:


> You can work hard to meet her needs, but still not meet them. Is her general state one of happiness and satisfaction? If not you are not meeting her needs.
> 
> If you are meeting her needs but tolerating that she does not meet your needs, you have to stop being a doormat.


I would have to say yes. She's a happy person, especially when we're together. She often tells me that she's lucky to have me and that she can't imagine what her life would be like without me. 

It is rapidly coming to a point where I'm going to have to let her know that either she gets with the program or I move on. 

This morning when we woke up, I asked her to take a shower with me. She turned it down. Great start to my day....


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

norajane said:


> Yes, but you also said you did something relatively insignificant for her and she "pounced" on you that night in bed.
> 
> Obviously, doing things for her creates some goodwill toward you and interest in sex.


Oh, yes...... That was on Saturday night. I do so much for her, I lost track of what day it was.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Lila said:


> Do you think she assumed you wanted some sort of sexual contact during the shower?


I think it would be safe to say that she would assume that. However, there are times that she does take a shower with me, or I'll hop in with her unexpectedly, and I intentionally leave anything sexual out of it. She'll almost always ask me "do you need me to....for you" Sometimes I'll say no and tell her "I just wanted to take a shower with you." So, it's not a given that the only reason I would ask her to shower with me is because I want something. My hope in those situations is that it starts something for later, when we have time to make it good. I usually end up with nothing by the time she comes home from work, stressed about how a deal went bad.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

LuvIsTuff said:


> ....She often tells me that she's lucky to have me and that she can't imagine what her life would be like without me.
> 
> *It is rapidly coming to a point where I'm going to have to let her know that either she gets with the program or I move on.*
> 
> This morning when we woke up, I asked her to take a shower with me. She turned it down. Great start to my day....


I too was in a sex starved marriage. What worked for me is much of what you are now doing. 

Have you really apologized to your wife for hurting her emotionally? Yes, you get it and are meeting her emotional needs. Yes you are opening your heart up to her. ....But has she forgiven you.

My suggestion, is to tell her that you love her, make her feel loved in her particular languages of love, but then tell her that you would like to make your marriage better and would like the help of a marriage counselor. Tell her you know that you have hurt her emotionally in the past, you have tried to change your ways and treat her better, you wish to apologize to her with all your heart, but that you know the both of you could benefit from the help of a professional.

Personally, I would start researching top notch sex therapists in your area and figuring out who the good ones really are. I would then work toward getting you and your wife to have an appointment for a set of sessions with one of them. It really helps to hire someone else to be the "bad cop" or referee in marriage negotiations. While it may seem expensive to you remember that it will be so much less expensive than the cost of two divorce attorneys and the other costs of a divorce.

Good luck


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I would have to say yes. She's a happy person, especially when we're together. She often tells me that she's lucky to have me and that she can't imagine what her life would be like without me.
> 
> *GREAT*
> 
> ...


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Hicks said:


> I'll be honest. It's not a good idea to make this suggestion to a wife who does not view herself as sexual. The fact that you are suggesting it shows you are not tuning to her wavelength. That reinforces to her that is is purely physcial to you and not about the emotional bond. You have to bring her along more slowly.


We take showers together on a regular basis. I initiate it, but it's not uncommon..


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## Marriedwithdogs (Jan 29, 2015)

Does she know things are this bad, and that you want to leave her fir someone who pursues you? Just saying, sometimes the person getting left is the last to know. Also, please be realistic. Nobody is going to chase/pursue you 24/7!


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

I know you don't want to divorce because of your kids, but they are at pretty good ages now to handle it. The older one will be upset but get over it. The younger one will be confused but adjust. If you wait until the younger one is much older, it could have a more long-lasting emotional effect. It sounds like you are both reasonable people and would be good parents to the kids whether you're together or not.

Even if you don't want it, you need to seriously consider it as a solution. If you don't, you'll give in too much and she won't try as hard. You both need to realize how critical this situation is. If you need an active sex life to be happy, then either it needs to be fixed or you should get divorced so you can find a parter that makes you happy. Think about how much worse you'll feel after another decade or two of the current situation. 

I wouldn't phrase it as "have sex or we get divorced." Rather, say that living without sex is something you can't do, and getting tossed scraps every now and then is not satisfying. Hopefully, you can convey the importance and she will help fix it, if nothing else than because she loves you and wants you to be happy.

If she's dismissive or expects you to do all the work, seriously consider divorce. You won't be able to change her desire by being super-duper nice.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

wilson said:


> I know you don't want to divorce because of your kids, but they are at pretty good ages now to handle it. The older one will be upset but get over it. The younger one will be confused but adjust. If you wait until the younger one is much older, it could have a more long-lasting emotional effect. It sounds like you are both reasonable people and would be good parents to the kids whether you're together or not.
> 
> Even if you don't want it, you need to seriously consider it as a solution. If you don't, you'll give in too much and she won't try as hard. You both need to realize how critical this situation is. If you need an active sex life to be happy, then either it needs to be fixed or you should get divorced so you can find a parter that makes you happy. Think about how much worse you'll feel after another decade or two of the current situation.
> 
> ...


For me, it really comes down to what my post is titled. It's one thing for her to be willing to have sex. It's a whole other thing for her to be interested. Even better, I want to be wanted, again. If I do everything I can think of and follow sound advice from people who know what they're talking about, then I don't see any other option than to move on.

You are right about my kids. My son will move out soon, so he's not my concern. My 6 year old girls scares the hell out of me. I'm a teacher, and I see what girls without fathers turn in to. At 6, she won't understand what's going on and probably won't remember much about it 10 years from now. I'm in a bad spot. I desperately want my wife to want me like she did when we dated, but I can't control that. I can do my part to re-kindle her fire, but it takes 2 to tango.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Everyone here is doing what people do in a help related forum - giving you good advice to follow that _may_ improve your sex life.

Just be prepared for a dose of cold hard reality in case none of this works at all, or only sporadically and for short periods. If you are expecting sexual interest from your wife that is much above her baseline natural level, you will more than likely fail.

That is the cold, harsh reality for couples who are sexually mismatched. You have to do your part to find out if this really is the case by picking from among the advice here and elsewhere, but if it is, it's a problem that does not get better.

SL Letters of the Day: I'M SICK OF THIS QUESTION - Slog - The Stranger


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

LuvIsTuff said:


> For me, it really comes down to what my post is titled. It's one thing for her to be willing to have sex. It's a whole other thing for her to be interested. Even better, I want to be wanted, again. If I do everything I can think of and follow sound advice from people who know what they're talking about, then I don't see any other option than to move on.
> 
> You are right about my kids. My son will move out soon, so he's not my concern. My 6 year old girls scares the hell out of me. I'm a teacher, and I see what girls without fathers turn in to. At 6, she won't understand what's going on and probably won't remember much about it 10 years from now. I'm in a bad spot. I desperately want my wife to want me like she did when we dated, but I can't control that. I can do my part to re-kindle her fire, but it takes 2 to tango.


Far be it from me to question a teacher, but who said anything about your daughter not having a father? 

I know it's not the same as being with her every day but if your marriage is making you miserable then that will be affecting her. If you are happier single then you may find that you have better time together when you are happy in your life than before.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

You'll have a better chance of success if you set your expectations accordingly. Realistically, the likely best outcome is regular sex where she's doing it for you rather than because she really wants it. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. As long as you don't pressure her to feel a certain way about it, she'll get enjoyment from making you happy. That may make her want to do it more because she wants to make you more happy. 

I think having a fixed time could really help your situation--like once-a-week every Saturday night. It would take all the pressure off. Both of you would know when it was going to be. She wouldn't have to worry about you wanting sex all the time and you wouldn't have to wonder if tonight was the night. Enjoy it for what it is and don't fret if she's not into it for the 'right' reasons. If she sees that it makes you happy, she'll be happy she's making you happy.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LuvIsTuff said:


> On your advice, we went out together for almost 2 hours last night. It was a surprise to her. At about 5:00, I told her to go get dressed and lets go do something together. Immediately my daughter went to get her shoes on. When I told her she wasn't going, it was a shock to her and to my wife. I made my 18 year old son watch our little girl. We went to Panera, had some soup and talked non stop the whole time. We actually got in to some very deep conversations and my wife teared up twice, talking about things that are important to her in her life. All in all, it was a good night. I told her we needed to do things like that a lot more often and she agreed.


This is great!!!

Keep in mind that when I say date-like it does not have to always be going out one a date.

Just to give you an idea... one of the things that I like are in-home dates. A tray of dessert or finger food, wine .. and we'd go off to our room after the children were in their rooms at night.

We'd talk, sip wine and snack.. some times it led to whip cream fights that then had to be licked off. Other times it was just intimate talks.

Walks together are a good one to do too. 

Did you look into the books I suggested?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jb02157 said:


> I do think that she needs to held accountable for what she's doing. Bait and switch is very real for many men and I think that's truly what's going on here.


It is very likely that from her point of view, he pulled a bait and switch after they married. she is not her to give her side of the story.

From my experience men are as likely to pull a bait and switch as women are. I've been through that. Women come here all the time with their story about their husbands who did a bait and switch.

What matters is that their marriage is repaired. This is not about putting blame on anyone and punishing them. It's about how to save a marriage and a family. 

There are some proven ways of rebuilding the intimacy (sexual and nonsexual) and the passion in marriage. That is the advice that I've given him. 

She has responded positively quickly to two things he has done. That a very good indicator that she wants the same thing he wants... they just need to find the way to get to that point.. together.

In all things comes from love. When we get punitive.. it destroys love.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I had the dreaded V 7 years ago. I'm 42 and no matter what, I'm not wanting any more kids.
> 
> We've talked many times over the years about her needs. I was lousy at meeting them for a long time, but that has changed dramatically. I finally "got it" about 4-5 years ago. I am uber affectionate, romantic, etc... It's actually to a point where some have told me it's too much. I'm trying to find a middle ground.
> 
> With all that said, nothing has ever changed on her end. I work very hard to meet her emotional needs, but there's little no reciprocation. If there was, I wouldn't be here looking for advice. For some reason, she just refuses to try.


What needs of hers were you meeting? How were you meeting them.

In order to build and maintain passion and a good sex life in marriage, a couple has to spend about 15 hours a week of quality, one-on-one time together.. just the two of them.

Without that kind of time together the bond is lost. If you two spend to time together the bond will be recreated and her desire for more sex with you will happen.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

LuvIsTuff said:


> You are right about my kids. My son will move out soon, so he's not my concern. My 6 year old girls scares the hell out of me. I'm a teacher, and I see what girls without fathers turn in to. At 6, she won't understand what's going on and probably won't remember much about it 10 years from now. I'm in a bad spot. I desperately want my wife to want me like she did when we dated, but I can't control that. I can do my part to re-kindle her fire, but it takes 2 to tango.


You are right. Your daughter does not deserve to be raised in a broken home. Rememeber you chose to have her 6 years ago and i think you knew enough about what your wife was like then. Your goal of your wife wanting you like she did when you dated is not realistic. Your goal should be steady improvement.

One of the things you have to realize is that your wife is not wired to prioritize sex any more than you are wired to prioritize matching pillows to sofas. You will get alot of satisfaction in your marriage seeing your wife do things for you because it's important to you rather than something she just wants to do naturally.

Without knowing your wife for who she is, not for who you want her to be, she will never open up to you sexually.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Cletus said:


> Everyone here is doing what people do in a help related forum - giving you good advice to follow that _may_ improve your sex life.
> 
> Just be prepared for a dose of cold hard reality in case none of this works at all, or only sporadically and for short periods. If you are expecting sexual interest from your wife that is much above her baseline natural level, you will more than likely fail.
> 
> ...


I don't think there's any question that we're "sexually mismatched", but honestly, how many women are truly as sexually minded as the average man. But, it's not like I want it every day. Every 2-3 days would keep me completely satisfied.

I know who she used to be, and something in me says that it can get much better even if she never matches up with me. If she'll just meet me in the middle(pun intended), life will be great.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

WonkyNinja said:


> Far be it from me to question a teacher, but who said anything about your daughter not having a father?
> 
> I know it's not the same as being with her every day but if your marriage is making you miserable then that will be affecting her. If you are happier single then you may find that you have better time together when you are happy in your life than before.


I'm referring to girls from divorced parents, who live with their mom. I'm not saying dad is absent, but there's a different level of issues that we see in young girls who's parents are divorced. It's undeniable.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

wilson said:


> You'll have a better chance of success if you set your expectations accordingly. Realistically, the likely best outcome is regular sex where she's doing it for you rather than because she really wants it. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. As long as you don't pressure her to feel a certain way about it, she'll get enjoyment from making you happy. That may make her want to do it more because she wants to make you more happy.
> 
> I think having a fixed time could really help your situation--like once-a-week every Saturday night. It would take all the pressure off. Both of you would know when it was going to be. She wouldn't have to worry about you wanting sex all the time and you wouldn't have to wonder if tonight was the night. Enjoy it for what it is and don't fret if she's not into it for the 'right' reasons. If she sees that it makes you happy, she'll be happy she's making you happy.


She has actually suggested "scheduling" sex. My first thought was WTF?! But, it's worth a try. I'll take M/T/W/T/F, and she can have the weekends off. LOL!!!


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> It is very likely that from her point of view, he pulled a bait and switch after they married. she is not her to give her side of the story.
> 
> From my experience men are as likely to pull a bait and switch as women are. I've been through that. Women come here all the time with their story about their husbands who did a bait and switch.
> 
> ...


I definitely didn't pull the "bait and switch". I was actually kind of a jerk when we met. I drank a lot and was a rather heavy drug user. She'll tell anyone that asks her that she "knew that who I was pretending to be when we met was not the real me" and that she "saw something in me that she knew she was going to marry me from the first time we met". I also don't think she intentionally switched. She was 3 months pregnant on our wedding day. She was throwing up throughout our honeymoon. Needless to say, we didn't have the typical start to our marriage. Unfortunately, we never got to go through the honeymoon phase of sex every day for months on end.... I'm 42 and still needing a honeymoon.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

LuvIsTuff said:


> She has actually suggested "scheduling" sex. My first thought was WTF?! But, it's worth a try. I'll take M/T/W/T/F, and she can have the weekends off. LOL!!!


That she suggested scheduling sex is actually a VERY positive sign. If that works, it will develop the habit of having - and hopefully! - enjoying sex, and then it can become more spontaneous (but even then, keep some kind of schedule so you don't backslide).

Scheduling works better for some people than spontaneity. Knowing that it's going to happen on a certain day at a certain time, you think about it, and that can build anticipation. Since SHE suggested it, she will probably experience anticipation rather than dread (which would obviously be counterproductive!). Of course, anticipation will grow for future scheduled times if you do your best to ensure she has a great time. You will want to do things or ask for things that ensure YOU have a great time too.

So, don't knock scheduling until you've tried it a while. Start with a couple of times a week, and then see if spontaneous sex begins to spill over to other days.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Married but Happy said:


> That she suggested scheduling sex is actually a VERY positive sign. If that works, it will develop the habit of having - and hopefully! - enjoying sex, and then it can become more spontaneous (but even then, keep some kind of schedule so you don't backslide).
> 
> Scheduling works better for some people than spontaneity. Knowing that it's going to happen on a certain day at a certain time, you think about it, and that can build anticipation. Since SHE suggested it, she will probably experience anticipation rather than dread (which would obviously be counterproductive!). Of course, anticipation will grow for future scheduled times if you do your best to ensure she has a great time. You will want to do things or ask for things that ensure YOU have a great time too.
> 
> So, don't knock scheduling until you've tried it a while. Start with a couple of times a week, and then see if spontaneous sex begins to spill over to other days.


I'm open to it. Thanks for the reply


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I definitely didn't pull the "bait and switch". I was actually kind of a jerk when we met.


Actually, it sounds like you did switch. You were a bad boy jerk when you started dating. And that's when she desired you sexually. After marrying, she was pregnant and a new mother. By the time her body got back to normal, you had probably reformed into Mr. Reliable Hubby. And it's no secret that bad boy jerks get a lot more action than reliable hubbies do.

Imagine you had a time machine. If you could go back to before you impregnated your wife and warn yourself that, in 20 years, your wife would only be able to work up to having enthusiastic sex with you three times a year, you would probably run away from the relationship screaming.

Similarly, if you warned your wife that, in 20 years, her bad boy jerk of a boyfriend would be a teacher whose friends describe as "too romantic," whose edgy behaviors had long been extinguished, she would probably also run away.

Life isn't a rom com. Chicks don't fall in love/lust with their male BFFs. They like edgy men. Try to get your edge back.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

BronzeTorpedo said:


> Actually, it sounds like you did switch. You were a bad boy jerk when you started dating. And that's when she desired you sexually. After marrying, she was pregnant and a new mother. By the time her body got back to normal, you had probably reformed into Mr. Reliable Hubby. And it's no secret that bad boy jerks get a lot more action than reliable hubbies do.
> 
> Imagine you had a time machine. If you could go back to before you impregnated your wife and warn yourself that, in 20 years, your wife would only be able to work up to having enthusiastic sex with you three times a year, you would probably run away from the relationship screaming.
> 
> ...


Funny you would say that....... I stopped heavy drinking about 6 years ago. I've never been an every day drinker. But when I drink, I freaking DRINK. After taming it down a bit, I still liked to have the occasional beer with my friends, but nothing over the top. I stopped drinking altogether almost 2 years ago. I just thought it was time to stop. I don't need the extra calories and my son was at an impressionable age, so I didn't want to model my stupid behavior to him.

My wife likes the occasional glass of wine, and we almost always have some in the house. Last week I was pissed about our relationship and one night said to myself "f*** It! I'm drinking.. So, I drank 2 glasses of red wine and my wife took notice and said "I thought you didn't drink any more". I said, "I do now". That was the end of the conversation. BTW, she didn't know I was pissed. I hadn't brought anything up to her about it.

The next night, we were watching tv and I went and got another glass of wine and when I did, she asked me to get her one too. We had good sex that night. Weird! 

Not sure if the whole "bad boy" thing had anything to do with that. Wine probably doesn't qualify. Maybe I'll go buy a bottle of Johnny Walker Black and really get her going. LOL


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I think you need to prepare yourself for the very likely possibility that your sex life will never be anywhere close to your expectation.

You're not asking just for an increase of frequency; that would be much easier to pull off if your wife isn't so selfish as to refuse you a real need, once she truly gets that it is a need for you. But the issue is that you're asking for an increase of genuine desire, to have her want, crave, and need sex with you. That's a completely different story.

Your marriage has been rolling along since Bill Clinton was in office. And it's been sexually unsatisfying from the beginning. There is nothing to repair or rebuild; your marriage is foundationally built on your wife not wanting you, and you in turn wanting sex. The downturn isn't a change in a once sexually healthy marriage, it's indicative of the very marriage itself. 

At this point, nearly 20 years of marriage deep, why would your wife suddenly want the 42 year old you when she had almost no interest in the 24 year old version? According to you she's gotten, without sexually desiring you:

- A husband who's changed his behavior for her
- A husband who's almost "too romantic" over the last 5 years
- A husband who works to fulfill her emotional needs
- A husband who talks to her and listens
- A husband who is doing all the heavy lifting sexually

Your wife sexually checked out at soon as the "I Dos" were exchanged. You said that she worked at attracting you prior to marriage, and yet as soon as you wed those efforts ceased. Eventually she got her "bad boy" to reform. Since then she's gotten two kids, a marriage and a husband that she, according to you, can't imagine her life without. She got everything WITHOUT having to be sexually attracted to you, without ever having to pursue you.

Why would she change now? 

Question, have you ever, in all these years, point blank told her that you expect a woman to desire you and do some of the pursuing? That it's a requirement for marriage to you? 

P.S. Stop blaming morning sickness, and a lack of honeymoon sex, nearly 20 years go on your wife not sexually desiring you. That just reads like obese women who blame their adult kids for them being overweight. It's a cop out.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Ive told her on many occasions that "I want to be wanted" Her response is always the same, "you already have that". Then I have to explain, again, that I'm referring to the passionate side of marriage. There's a Greek word for love, Eros. Its the root word for erotic. She doesn't seen have an "Eros" love for me.

I have never told her what I expect. I've only told her what I want and what I dream of having with her. I guess I need to go there....


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I have never told her what I expect. I've only told her what I want and what I dream of having with her. I guess I need to go there....


Yes you do. It's something that should have been outlined 20 years ago. 

We all have our wants and our needs in marriage. Being wanted, and pursued, seems to be a vital need for you in marriage that you've mistakenly presented as a want. She deserves to know that. The trouble is that this conversation is coming all these years later. She does not see pursuing you as fundamentally part of your marriage, or part of her identity. 

That's why this is so tough. You're presenting this as an expectation for marriage. But, from her POV, how could this be an expectation when you've never said it was and have gone nearly 20 years without it? That's like a husband suddenly saying to his stay-at-home wife of 20 years that he's always expected her to work outside of the home, yet failed to ever state that implicitly.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

jaquen said:


> Yes you do. It's something that should have been outlined 20 years ago.
> 
> We all have our wants and our needs in marriage. Being wanted, and pursued, seems to be a vital need for you in marriage that you've mistakenly presented as a want. She deserves to know that. The trouble is that this conversation is coming all these years later. She does not see pursuing you as fundamentally part of your marriage, or part of her identity.
> 
> That's why this is so tough. You're presenting this as an expectation for marriage. But, from her POV, how could this be an expectation when you've never said it was and have gone nearly 20 years without it? That's like a husband suddenly saying to his stay-at-home wife of 20 years that he's always expected her to work outside of the home, yet failed to ever state that implicitly.


There's some partial truth to what you're saying, but she and I have had these conversations for 18+ years. No, I've never said "I expect....". I've clearly and passionately expressed what I need and what I want. She knows. She even told me about 4 years ago that "I can't be who you want me to be". It's not as if I would go to her today and say "I expect" that she would be caught off guard and act as if this is a complete shocker. It would more be a matter of saying "I've told you for our entire marriage that I need x, y, and z. For some reason you've refused to change. I'm not spending the rest of my life wishing my wife was sexually attracted to me. If it doesn't change, and change rapidly, I'm done."

Some of you may read this and think I should have pulled the rip cord years ago, but I just don't think like that. I'm generally a person who thinks "where there's a will, there's a way". The only problem is that all this time it's been my will, but she hasn't been willing. I just don't get it. I know she loves me. Why is this so hard?!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Lila said:


> many of us ladies have to feel an emotional connection in order to get the passion juices flowing.


:iagree:


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Lila said:


> Have you had any opportunities this week for quality time with your wife?
> 
> I don't think anyone has asked this question.....Do you know your wife's love language? (Based on the Love Languages book). If her love language is Quality Time (mine too), then 1 hour a week if falling well short of what she needs to feel loved by you. And as others have mentioned, many of us ladies have to feel an emotional connection in order to get the passion juices flowing.


Yes. On Sunday night I took her out for dinner and we had a great time. Lots of deep and meaningful conversation. And yesterday I called her around lunch time and asked if she wanted to meet me for lunch, and she did. It wasn't a lot of time, but we did get to be together for a while.

As for the love language, she is a "gifts" person. Yesterday, after lunch, I had to take a short business trip to Austin, Tx, which is about 3 hours from home. While I was there I ate dinner at a restaurant that had it's own winery. I bought her a bottle of a particular wine that I thought she would like. Things were hectic this morning, getting the kids out the door, so I didn't give it to her yet. I will tonight.

So, yes, I spend what I believe to be quality time with her. I periodically give her gifts(since her language is the only one that costs money, it's not as easy as "words of affirmation" or "physical touch"). I know, I know, it doesn't have to be an expensive gift. On a regular basis I come home with little things for her, just to let her know I was thinking about her. For example, she likes Danish Wedding cookies. I'll sometimes have to run to the grocery store for milk and eggs, and I'll bring her a box of those cookies, or a pack of Hershey kisses, or something small that I know she likes. She seems to appreciate it. But, as with most everything else, it doesn't lead to anything. Oh, what I wouldn't give for her to follow me in to the bedroom, shut the door and lock it, and show some damn love.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Time with you, good quality time, is what she needs. It's non-sexual intimacy that will build her desire for you.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LuvIsTuff,

You have not yet gotten and read the books I suggested to you, have you?


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Ive told her on many occasions that "I want to be wanted" Her response is always the same, "you already have that". Then I have to explain, again, that I'm referring to the passionate side of marriage. There's a Greek word for love, Eros. Its the root word for erotic. She doesn't seen have an "Eros" love for me.
> 
> I have never told her what I expect. I've only told her what I want and what I dream of having with her. I guess I need to go there....


"I want you to want me" Ah yes, I understand completely!
My experience is almost a mirror to yours, 23 years in.
I'll tell you what helped me.
:Stop talking about sex with your wife
:Back off of the gifts and romantic stuff. Stop trying to earn sex
:Get ALL the weight off, I mean ALL of it.
:Go to the gym
:After you lose the weight, get new cool clothes
:Be in a position, out in public with your wife where other women can look at the new you.
:Get your old hobbies back, or find new ones.
:Go out with friends and enjoy yourself.
:Lead in bed. Try what you want to try. Be aggressive but respectful of her boundaries.
:Initiate sex, but DON'T get pissed when she says no, just go out and do something to get your mind off of it.
: Detach yourself from your wife a bit. Don't let her emotions rule your world.
:Become a confident, strong man that begets respect and not ashamed for wanting great sex with your wife. It's perfectly justifiable and normal.

It would be so easy to just tell your wife "I want you to want me." However, that statement in an of itself is completely counterproductive. It's like walking up to some girl you like and telling her "I want you to love me." You have to BECOME the man she WANTS to WANT, with ACTION, not with words or lengthy discussions about how you "feel" about sex.

The good news is that you have a head start because she married you in the first place.
The bad news is that this will/is probably one of the hardest things you will have to do in your lifetime, AND it's not a one and done. It's a LIFELONG process that you must continue. If you relax, in time, you'll find yourself in EXACTLY the same position as today.
Gird up your loins, it's going to be a LONG hard ride!

I wish you success.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

You can do things for her with the hope that it leads to something. A good relationship requires 15 hours of quality time - a meal out and a few hours of conversation isn't enough. Women need to feel that you are thinking about her all of the time and foreplay starts early in the day. I guarantee getting cookies while already at the store are seen as an afterthought to her. How often does she got to the store and gets your favorite beer or the ingredients for a meal she knows you'll like? Pretty often, I bet. So she doesn't see that as going above and beyond - she sees that as doing the same courteous things that she does. It's not "extra".

When it gets nice outside, stop and pick flowers from the side of the road on the way home - much bigger hit than cookies and free. Text her several times throughout the day saying you are thinking of her or looking forward to spending some time with her. If she likes baths then get some bath petals or a bath fizz. Put some thought into presentation - you can buy a package of small gift bags for a couple dollars and keep in the car so instead of just handing her an item, you are actually giving a gift. If you wear a tie to work be funny and tie it in a bow around the neck of the wine bottle before giving it to her. 

Do you ever criticize or poke fun? Trust is important to a woman when it comes to libido. She must feel safe with her body and her feelings. Also, studies show it takes 10 positive interactions to offset one negative one. So one snarky comment in the morning requires 10 positive statements just to BREAK EVEN emotionally! That takes some serious work and thoughtfulness. Offhand comments can hurt more than one realizes.

So even if words of affirmation aren't' her love language, they are still important to keep the love bucket full. 

Try this: one day start it off positive, kiss/hug/i love you before heading out the door and a "you look particularly nice today". During the day text her a couple times. "Thinking of you" or even just a positive response when you ask what's for dinner and tell her how lucky you are to have a good cook for a wife. When you come home tell her how glad you are to be home. Thank her for things like dinner, getting the kids to bed - whatever. Come bed time just stop and stare at her. She'll ask "what?" compliment her - even if it's just how cute she is in a Tshirt and ponytail. Make no moves. Bedtime kiss her her and stroke her hair or back and tell her how lucky you are for her to be in your life, mother of children, whatever. Make no moves for sex. I can almost guarantee if you keep this up - gifts, thoughtful gestures, compliments - in a few days she'll make a move or at the very least be very receptive. And the more you do it, the more frequent sex will become.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> LuvIsTuff,
> 
> You have not yet gotten and read the books I suggested to you, have you?


I may have missed that post. What books were they?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I've suggested books to you which explain this. Not only that but they are books that you can read with her and work through with her. They will help both of you in identifying and talking about each others needs and how to meet them.

They explain why sex is important to you and hence your marriage (she needs to hear this). And they explain why emotional intimacy is important to her (and you by the way).

The women on this thread have been very clear to you why your wife has lost interest in sex with you. It's because you lost interest in her and for years you have spend no real time with her. She has been the least important person and thing on your priority list. 

A person's priority list can be seen through their actions... who do you put the most time and effort into. It's not her.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Here are the posts that I made to you in which I suggested the books *"Love Busters"* and *"His Needs, Her Needs"*




EleGirl said:


> TPost #22
> 
> his is the kind of answer that I expected.
> 
> ...





EleGirl said:


> Post #33
> 
> With children it can be hard to get 2 hours a day. But if you really work at it, you could restructure your days to get as much as possible each day.
> 
> ...





EleGirl said:


> Post #66
> 
> This is great!!!
> 
> ...


There are also links to the books in my signature block in every one of my posts.



EleGirl said:


> *To Create A Passionate Marriage - Five Steps to Romantic Love His Needs, Her Needs Love Busters *


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I definitely didn't pull the "bait and switch". I was actually kind of a jerk when we met. I drank a lot and was a rather heavy drug user. She'll tell anyone that asks her that she "knew that who I was pretending to be when we met was not the real me" and that she "saw something in me that she knew she was going to marry me from the first time we met". I also don't think she intentionally switched. She was 3 months pregnant on our wedding day. She was throwing up throughout our honeymoon. Needless to say, we didn't have the typical start to our marriage. Unfortunately, we never got to go through the honeymoon phase of sex every day for months on end.... I'm 42 and still needing a honeymoon.


How long did you date her before you married her?

Did you live together before you married her?


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> How long did you date her before you married her?
> 
> Did you live together before you married her?


About 1 year. She got pregnant and we married much sooner than we would have(assuming we would have eventually married). 

We didn't really live together. She had her own place and I had mine, but we were usually together at my place.


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

I suppose I'm the contrarian here. Most of the folks on this board seem to think that, if your wife refuses to have sex with you, it's your fault. She's not making a decision to deny you a basic human need. She just doesn't have any free will where it comes to sex. Either you push the correct buttons so that she has passionate sex with you, or you don't and she has no choice but to starfish a couple of dozen times a year.

Sometimes, that may be true. But often, women simply get married for different reasons than men do. Leaving out the shotgun element of your wedding, one of the primary reasons you got married was probably to have a lifetime sexual partner. That doesn't mean your wife had the same reasons. She is likely like the many women who simply get married to have companionship. She gets a co-parent, a roommate, and someone to satisfy her sexual needs every six months when she gets horny. In return, all she has to do is roll her eyes and starfish every few weeks. That's not a bad deal for her. It's much worse for you.

Now, you could certainly get the books and work through them. But don't expect your wife to cooperate. If the other posters are correct, and she's a sexual tigress dying to express herself, but powerless to do so, she will probably jump at the chance to improve your marriage, and sex life. But, if she's just a taker who isn't interested in giving, she'll probably be reluctant. There are many threads on here where wives take the books Elegirl suggested, toss them on the nightstand, and never crack the spine. If that's the case, you have your answer.

One other resource that I like is Athol Kay's Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits. for good information. He tends to side with the "sex is just a reflex in women" camp. But he has some useful information on how to be more attractive to wives. A lot of husbands swear by him.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

jb02157 said:


> I do think that she needs to held accountable for what she's doing. Bait and switch is very real for many men and I think that's truly what's going on here.


Bait and switch is also very real for women.

A few years ago conversing with my H about the state of our marriage I to,d him he never acts like he wants me, like he wants to woo me, romance me, or try to win me. He looked aghast and said "why would I do that? We're already married? I don't have to do that anymore."


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

UMP said:


> "I want you to want me" Ah yes, I understand completely!
> My experience is almost a mirror to yours, 23 years in.
> I'll tell you what helped me.
> :Stop talking about sex with your wife
> ...


I completely agree with everything here except the part about stop romancing your wife. However, I understand how this might be good advice for some men. For this OP, I don't think it fits.


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Bait and switch is also very real for women.
> 
> A few years ago conversing with my H about the state of our marriage I to,d him he never acts like he wants me, like he wants to woo me, romance me, or try to win me. He looked aghast and said "why would I do that? We're already married? I don't have to do that anymore."


Unless your husband promised to endlessly court you after you married, I don't think that qualifies as bait and switch.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Bait and switch is also very real for women.


:iagree: My husband and I had a wonderful sex life prior to marriage for well over a year and he began routinely denying me sex on our honeymoon. It can happen to either sex, male or female. 

But this is off topic, as OP's wife did not do a bait and switch. Sex issues are almost always a symptom of a bigger problem in the marriage. They barely spend any time at all as a couple(maybe an hour a week ), which really needs to change. She is not having her needs met and therefore doesn't want sex. When my husband has been rude/distant/not the best husband, I did not want to have sex with him. It's the quickest way to kill desire. 

The book *His Needs Her Needs* is really good. My husband and I went through the book *Give and Take by Willard Harley*, which did a lot for my marriage. It has a little from both books(His Needs Her Needs and Love Busters), and really followed how my marriage went with problems starting on our honeymoon. It really opened my husband's eyes to the issues we had.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

BronzeTorpedo said:


> Unless your husband promised to endlessly court you after you married, I don't think that qualifies as bait and switch.


Oh really?

Let us know how your sex life is coping in a few years as you fail to woo or court your wife?


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Raise your sex rank now. Lift weights. Heavy free weights not machines. You can lose fat a very fast rate. Inside three months you'll be in shape. 

Workout 3 or 4 times a week with a vengeance. When other ladies start noticing you, your W will notice them noticing you. 

She will transform herself before your eyes. When your sex rank is higher than hers, you are the top dog In the house. She will start getting in shape herself. And f#cking your brains out. Or rather you her 

You need to take the male leadership role of your marriage and relationship. What you e been taught all your life about women is disastrously wrong. 

Read Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011 by Athol Kay. 

The book is not THE answer, it sets you in the right direction. 

Male leadership is the way. She will respond to you. Women are programmed to respond to her man. She is responding to you now. Have her respond to the new you. You'll love it and kick yourself in the arse for not stepping up because of culturally biased anti testosterone indoctrination all your life. 

Listen to your generic memory, not feminazi nonsense. 

Read the book bro. Take the red pill.

Me? Yep. Went from a 38 inch waist to 34 and have a 50 inch chest. Inside 6 months. Was walking out from a shop yesterday 
and a slim, shapely mom with a kid stared at me until I got in my car. My W is not jealous, she really loves she's with someone other ladies notice. I'm all hers. She always grabs at my biceps. 

I am no gym rat, just do the basics and carry on with my life. Oh, and she's now working out with me. More together time.

Excuse that you don't have time for the gym??? Lies. Everything else in Your life finds time like magic.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

Q tip said:


> Raise your sex rank now. Lift weights. Heavy free weights not machines. You can lose fat a very fast rate. Inside three months you'll be in shape.
> 
> Workout 3 or 4 times a week with a vengeance. When other ladies start noticing you, your W will notice them noticing you.
> 
> She will transform herself before your eyes. When your sex rank is higher than hers, you are the top dog In the house. She will start getting in shape herself. And f#cking your brains out. Or rather you her.


Being in shape is great and healthier for you, but don't think that it will fix sex problems. I'll have to disagree with the above. My husband is in great shape and very attractive, but if he isn't being a loving husband then don't expect me to want sex. I need an emotional connection to want sex. Brad Pitt could walk by, but it doesn't mean I want to jump his bones. There has to be more than just 'good looks'.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Anonymous07 said:


> Being in shape is great and healthier for you, but don't think that it will fix sex problems. I'll have to disagree with the above. My husband is in great shape and very attractive, but if he isn't being a loving husband then don't expect me to want sex. *I need an emotional connection to want sex.* Brad Pitt could walk by, but it doesn't mean I want to jump his bones. There has to be more than just 'good looks'.


:iagree:


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

In reply to qtips above post. He would have to spend time, real time and not 1 little hour a week with his wife for her to notice other women noticing him.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> In reply to qtips above post. He would have to spend time, real time and not 1 little hour a week with his wife for her to notice other women noticing him.


A simply easy fact that is apparently way above the heads of many men!


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Anonymous07 said:


> Being in shape is great and healthier for you, but don't think that it will fix sex problems. I'll have to disagree with the above. My husband is in great shape and very attractive, but if he isn't being a loving husband then don't expect me to want sex. I need an emotional connection to want sex. Brad Pitt could walk by, but it doesn't mean I want to jump his bones. There has to be more than just 'good looks'.



You only see the women's side. It builds a mans self esteem and much more from a male perspective. These elements all help. Of course the man needs to growth the heck up and assume his role too. It's all part of contributing to the a solution. Each part matters.

To deny a man his journey to improve in all ways merely prevents him from improving at all.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

Q tip said:


> You only see the women's side. It builds a mans self esteem and much more from a male perspective. These elements all help. Of course the man needs to growth the heck up and assume his role too. It's all part of contributing to the a solution. Each part matters.


I see being in shape as just a side bonus, but the big issue is that they spend very little time together and don't have the emotional connection they need in a marriage. Her needs are not being met, so of course she doesn't want sex. I would not want sex either if my husband and I never really spent time together. I was happy when my husband started working out more, it was good for him, but it did nothing for me.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> A simply easy fact that is apparently way above the heads of many men!



The benefit I've personally experienced IS more us time. Not sure why it wouldn't. We both work out and enjoy more us time I. Other things too. 

I stand by a mans path to growth statement. It starts with his physical self. Emotional growth is necessary too.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Anonymous07 said:


> I see being in shape as just a side bonus, but the big issue is that they spend very little time together and don't have the emotional connection they need in a marriage. Her needs are not being met, so of course she doesn't want sex. I would not want sex either if my husband and I never really spent time together. I was happy when my husband started working out more, it was good for him, but it did nothing for me.



For a guy, physical improvement starts other improvements. Read MMSLP

My personal experience seems to follow this route. Just because he builds physically does not mean he will abandon emotional growth. It helps. Just not what ladies wanna here today...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Q tip said:


> The benefit I've personally experienced IS more us time. Not sure why it wouldn't. We both work out and enjoy more us time I. Other things too.
> 
> I stand by a mans path to growth statement. It starts with his physical self. Emotional growth is necessary too.


I completely agree. Emotional growth is vital!

Maybe it's a chicken egg kind of thing? As a man improves himself she WANTS to spend time with him and so they do, which leads to greater emotional intimacy through alone time together.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

Q tip said:


> For a guy, physical improvement stars other improvements. Read MMSLP
> 
> My personal experience seems to follow this route. Just because he builds physically does not mean he will abandon emotional growth. It helps. Just not what ladies wanna here today...


That was not my experience. Not at all. 

My husband got in shape, but we still had a lot of marital problems. Him getting in shape didn't change our marriage. It helped him be healthier, but that was about it. It wasn't until we went through the book Give and Take that my husband opened his eyes to see a lot of the issues we had and then began working on them.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> In reply to qtips above post. He would have to spend time, real time and not 1 little hour a week with his wife for her to notice other women noticing him.


it's all the start, not the end of the process. he needs to improve himself, then grow out to his goal.

its brought me closer to my W and we are spending significantly more us time.

you're asking a man to win a marathon mentally without being physically prepared. perhaps its a guy thing for the physical part. it is an anti-testosterone indoctrination that stops him, robs him of his maleness and betaizes him. starting physical improvement breaks a man of all this nonsense beta crap and finding a healthy male balance.

it builds a mans self confidence and he can continue the improvements. it is not a solution, just a step in the process.

its been my experience. i guess i am wrong about all the increased closeness, lots more us time, sex, growth and partnership. 

it started with me, a mere guy, improving myself physically and then mentally.

so, as long as my wife doesn't read this, we'll stay happy and on an upward path. -- as we have been for so many years.

my wife now sees all the betaized men at work and can only shake her head. she prefers a decent balanced guy. like me! she sees and knows the difference. physically is only half the job. a guy should know this, but needs a strategy. MMSLP is a fairly good start.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Anonymous07 said:


> That was not my experience. Not at all.
> 
> My husband got in shape, but we still had a lot of marital problems. Him getting in shape didn't change our marriage. It helped him be healthier, but that was about it. It wasn't until we went through the book Give and Take that my husband opened his eyes to see a lot of the issues we had and then began working on them.


excellent!!!!!!

....and it gave him a strategy to work by. MMSLP is not the only one.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

A lot of women have serious problems with MMSLP because of the over simplifications contained. So oversimplified it misses the genuine goal of emotional growth. Like following a recipe to make baked Alaska when you don't know how to light a match.

But Qtip, you have clearly been able to see through the hyperbole contained in that book and make genuine growth. Some men can. But I think too many men miss the real goal there.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Q tip said:


> excellent!!!!!!
> 
> ....and it gave him a strategy to work by. MMSLP is not the only one.


You told the OP to ignore the things he is being told... you know what you call the faminazi stuff.... like "His Needs, Her Needs", spending at least 15 hours of quality time with his wife. 

You did not tell him that it's all important... only that getting in shape and making his wife jealous is important. You might not have meant that but it is what you said.

Also, Dr. Harley, the author of "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters" is not a feminist or an "feminazi". He is all about fixing marriages with has he has learned works.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

Q tip said:


> excellent!!!!!!
> 
> ....and it gave him a strategy to work by. MMSLP is not the only one.


My point was that my husband getting in shape wasn't necessary in fixing our marriage. The book Give and Take is what helped fix our marriage. Him getting in shape was good for his health, but it didn't do much for our marriage. 

As for MMSLP, I refuse to follow that book. Others have stated some reasons for why. The book Give and Take was great, and my husband thought so, too.


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Oh really?
> 
> Let us know how your sex life is coping in a few years as you fail to woo or court your wife?


I'm not claiming that many wives don't fantasize about endless courtship. I'm simply doubting that many husbands are promising it.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

BronzeTorpedo said:


> I'm not claiming that many wives don't fantasize about endless courtship. I'm simply doubting that many husbands are promising it.


Uh Huh. Interesting. So you think a husband needs to verbalize his intent to always cherish his wife specifically through courtship? You don't think cherish his wife implies courtship? Do you think getting married implies consent for regular sex?


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

My post disappeared, so I apologize in advance if I post it now and have the original pop up in 5 minutes.

OP, I'm a contrarian. So I don't necessarily buy the conventional wisdom here that your wife's sexual behavior is all determined by you. If she's withholding sex, it's entirely possible that she is choosing to do so rather than simply unable to meet your needs because you haven't tripped her sexual reflex.

Many here are assuming that your wife's needs are similar to theirs, and that you're not meeting them. From your prior posts, you've claimed that your wife's primary need is gifts (not quality time) and that you've been meeting her needs for at least the last four years. If that's true, it's possible that your wife is correct in her self-assessment that she simply doesn't desire sex with you and never will, regardless of what you do.

That said, there's no harm in reading some books and trying to engage your wife in improving your marriage. But don't be surprised if she outright refuses to read the books, or like sex, promises to but never delivers. That's a common scenario in threads on this board.

Also, you should absolutely get in shape. It's possible that you being muscular will trip her sexual reflex. But it will also make you more healthy and will better prepare you to date if you divorce.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

My H is in good shape, broad shoulders and muscles. Really nice arms. I love his arms. But none of that matters when he's not meeting my needs. 

Even without a primary LL of quality time, it's still needed in order to connect and be a couple and not just a Mom and Dad living together.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Anonymous07 said:


> I see being in shape as just a side bonus, but the big issue is that they spend very little time together and don't have the emotional connection they need in a marriage. Her needs are not being met, so of course she doesn't want sex. I would not want sex either if my husband and I never really spent time together.


Hold on! We spend A TON of time together. It's not "alone" time, but we're together a lot. We sit together on our loveseat every night, laughing at whatever stupid tv show we're watching, and I hold her, stroke her hair, rub her shoulders, and show her affection for at least 1 hour every night. We go out to eat together 2-3 times a week. I drop by her office to see her on a regular basis. So, don't think we don't spend time together. We haven't managed to spend 2 hours every day, alone, but prior to getting on this forum a few days ago, I'd never heard of anyone with a family being able to do that. I'm definitely changing and focusing on getting some alone time every day. I've managed to do it every day this week already. Maybe it'll only be 30 minutes. Maybe we'll manage to find 2 hours. But hold off on the "I wouldn't want sex either if my husband and I never really spent any time together" BS.


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Uh Huh. Interesting. So you think a husband needs to verbalize his intent to always cherish his wife specifically through courtship? You don't think cherish his wife implies courtship? Do you think getting married implies consent for regular sex?


Since marriage is thousands of years old, we have a lot of tradition to illuminate the expected behavior of married people and single people. Courting was how a man expressed interest in a woman and how women, and their families, chose between men. The period of courtship ended when the couple married.

Sex was verboten between unmarried people. Marriage was the only moral way for two people to have a sexual relationship. So, marriage was expected to include regular sex.

Now, I will stipulate that many people are invested in redefining all parts of marriage. For example, you suggest that to cherish one's wife, one must engage in endless courtship. I disagree. There are many ways to cherish one's wife that have absolutely nothing to do with courtship. Indeed, courtship may be exclusive to cherishing one's spouse.

Now, are all courting behaviors bad in a marriage? Of course not. Occasionally bringing one's wife flowers, or going on dates are great ways to enjoy each other and show appreciation. But, if a woman wants to be treated like a girlfriend forever, she should probably stay a girlfriend and not marry.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

BronzeTorpedo said:


> So I don't necessarily buy the conventional wisdom here that your *wife's sexual behavior is all determined by you.* If she's withholding sex, it's entirely possible that she is choosing to do so rather than simply unable to meet your needs because you haven't tripped her sexual reflex.


Aha! I have discovered another time when a woman says one thing and man hears something else entirely! No one has said that his sex life is ALL because of his inaction. We have pointed out, from a woman's perspective...and we are talking about his wife, what his wife might be needing in order to feel more sexual with him.

Ignore it at your own peril.




> Many here are assuming that your wife's needs are similar to theirs, and that you're not meeting them. From your prior posts, you've claimed that your wife's primary need is gifts (not quality time) and that you've been meeting her needs for at least the last four years. If that's true, it's possible that your wife is correct in her self-assessment that she simply doesn't desire sex with you and never will, regardless of what you do.


This is true. As the brilliant FaithfulWife points out, some people are just not that sexual and no matter what you do nothing will affect their sex drive. Could this be Mrs OP? Maybe.



> That said, there's no harm in reading some books and trying to engage your wife in improving your marriage. But don't be surprised if she outright refuses to read the books, or like sex, promises to but never delivers. That's a common scenario in threads on this board.
> 
> Also, you should absolutely get in shape. It's possible that you being muscular will trip her sexual reflex. But it will also make you more healthy and will better prepare you to date if you divorce.



Yes, improve yourself, read the books, employ their messages, get your wife to participate. Doing all of this may take a full year before you can make a real judgment call on its relative effectiveness. At that time, if nothing has changed, you deliver the ultimatum, we improve in these areas or we separate/divorce in all areas...and mean it!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

BronzeTorpedo said:


> Since marriage is thousands of years old, we have a lot of tradition to illuminate the expected behavior of married people and single people. Courting was how a man expressed interest in a woman and how women, and their families, chose between men. The period of courtship ended when the couple married.
> 
> Sex was verboten between unmarried people. Marriage was the only moral way for two people to have a sexual relationship. So, marriage was expected to include regular sex.
> 
> ...



Oh please! You're really going to apply historic understandings of implied marital right to today's marriage?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

BronzeTorpedo said:


> Since marriage is thousands of years old, we have a lot of tradition to illuminate the expected behavior of married people and single people. Courting was how a man expressed interest in a woman and how women, and their families, chose between men. The period of courtship ended when the couple married.
> 
> Sex was verboten between unmarried people. Marriage was the only moral way for two people to have a sexual relationship. So, marriage was expected to include regular sex.
> 
> ...


Since we are now past the days where marriage forced women into having sex no matter how she felt about it, it's a good idea to keep the romance going and meet her needs so she wants to. 
This is a huge reason why women seem to turn off sex after the ring is on, their husbands turned off trying.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> You told the OP to ignore the things he is being told... you know what you call the faminazi stuff.... like "His Needs, Her Needs", spending at least 15 hours of quality time with his wife.
> 
> You did not tell him that it's all important... only that getting in shape and making his wife jealous is important. You might not have meant that but it is what you said.
> 
> Also, Dr. Harley, the author of "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters" is not a feminist or an "feminazi". He is all about fixing marriages with has he has learned works.


he's just a guy, one improvement (miracle) at a time. he ain't gonna do all things at once. he's just a guy. one success at a time. getting the fat off his body, then from between his ears...

once he gets one success then rest is much much easier. his body getting in shape first will get his attention. then comes the hard part. growing up and actually participating in his marriage.

gotta start the ball rolling with an easy thing first.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> You told the OP to ignore the things he is being told... you know what you call the faminazi stuff.... like "His Needs, Her Needs", spending at least 15 hours of quality time with his wife.
> 
> You did not tell him that it's all important... only that getting in shape and making his wife jealous is important. You might not have meant that but it is what you said.
> 
> Also, Dr. Harley, the author of "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters" is not a feminist or an "feminazi". He is all about fixing marriages with has he has learned works.


wow...!!!! please re read. i NEVER said to make anyone jealous. its just that a woman will not be jealous if other women check her H out. shes proud if you will. an immature guy might be, but typically not the ladies.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Q tip said:


> he's just a guy, one improvement (miracle) at a time. he ain't gonna do all things at once. he's just a guy. one success at a time. getting the fat off his body, then from between his ears...
> 
> once he gets one success then rest is much much easier. his body getting in shape first will get his attention. then comes the hard part. growing up and actually participating in his marriage.
> 
> gotta start the ball rolling with an easy thing first.


I agree with the concept of starting the ball rolling with one thing. But wouldn't it make sense to start with the easiest thing? Isn't spending alone time easier than dropping 20 pounds?


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Oh please! You're really going to apply historic understandings of implied marital right to today's marriage?


Sure. Marriage was established to be a sexual relationship. So I reject the postmodernist assertion that sex is optional in 21st century marriage. Similarly, courtship was established to transition from being single to being married. Arguing that the transition period should be eternal with nothing changing after the wedding doesn't make sense.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> I agree with the concept of starting the ball rolling with one thing. But wouldn't it make sense to start with the easiest thing? Isn't spending alone time easier than dropping 20 pounds?


:iagree: Or maybe combine the 2. Go for nightly romantic walks together. Go for a hike and a picnic lunch on the weekend, go on a rock climbing date.


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Since we are now past the days where marriage forced women into having sex no matter how she felt about it, it's a good idea to keep the romance going and meet her needs so she wants to.
> This is a huge reason why women seem to turn off sex after the ring is on, their husbands turned off trying.


Given how common this attitude is, it's little wonder that people are delaying marriage and even foregoing it entirely. In the past, courtship led to commitment. It was an audition period for men and women to decide whether to commit to each other. Now, courtship must be eternal or women will withhold sex, or simply withdraw their commitment entirely and look for someone new to court them. What a great selling pitch for marriage. Audition forever, or else!


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> :iagree: Or maybe combine the 2. Go for nightly romantic walks together. Go for a hike and a picnic lunch on the weekend, go on a rock climbing date.


you mean actually get creative, take charge and keep the marriage rolling along!

most all relationships will grow stale without some imaginative leadership! have some fun with your marriage. and don't suffer in silence!


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Q tip said:


> he's just a guy, one improvement (miracle) at a time. he ain't gonna do all things at once. he's just a guy. one success at a time. getting the fat off his body, then from between his ears...
> 
> once he gets one success then rest is much much easier. his body getting in shape first will get his attention. then comes the hard part. growing up and actually participating in his marriage.
> 
> gotta start the ball rolling with an easy thing first.


Why do all you M F'ers think I need to get in shape? I'm training for a half marathon, I ride my mountain bike. Damn! You've never even seen me.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

BronzeTorpedo said:


> Given how common this attitude is, it's little wonder that people are delaying marriage and even foregoing it entirely. In the past, courtship led to commitment. It was an audition period for men and women to decide whether to commit to each other. Now, courtship must be eternal or women will withhold sex, or simply withdraw their commitment entirely and look for someone new to court them. What a great selling pitch for marriage. Audition forever, or else!


It's an audition in a way. That means you are showing her who you are and seeing if you are compatible. You take her on dates, bring her flowers, be romantic and meet her needs. If all of a sudden you get a ring on and say "I just did that to catch you, now I'm done" it's no better than a woman having all kinds of sex with you during the audition period just to get you and then stopping once the ring is on. It's a bait and switch. 

You don't stop what made your partner want you and find you compatible after you get married or your partner will no longer want you and find you compatible.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> She knows. She even told me about 4 years ago that "I can't be who you want me to be".


There you have it.

Believe people when they tell you the truth.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

UMP said:


> "I want you to want me" Ah yes, I understand completely!
> My experience is almost a mirror to yours, 23 years in.
> I'll tell you what helped me.
> :Stop talking about sex with your wife
> ...


I believe much of the work in this list should be done for one's self. It's good stuff that helps you feel better about life and by extension may help your spouse's attraction toward you.

But really, ultimately who gets married to have to work this hard constantly, for the rest of your life, just to get some P from the one woman who promised to give it to you? Don't any of you guys who are constantly working night and day to just be wanted ever get tired, or resentful, of having to jump through a thousand hoops, and totally constantly remake yourself over, just to peak the interest of a woman? I feel like you guys are getting such a raw deal.


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> It's an audition in a way. That means you are showing her who you are and seeing if you are compatible. You take her on dates, bring her flowers, be romantic and meet her needs. If all of a sudden you get a ring on and say "I just did that to catch you, now I'm done" it's no better than a woman having all kinds of sex with you during the audition period just to get you and then stopping once the ring is on. It's a bait and switch.
> 
> You don't stop what made your partner want you and find you compatible after you get married or your partner will no longer want you and find you compatible.


I'm not suggesting that, after marriage, men should quit their jobs and wear a butt groove in the couch because their work is done. I'm simply drawing a distinction between wives and girlfriends that makes many people uncomfortable. Marriage changes things. Or, at least it should.

When courting, dinner out is expected. Girlfriends get to paint the town red on Friday night. Wives eat with their husbands every single night. Most men can't afford to take their wives out for every dinner the way they did with their girlfriends. Out of necessity, wives have to cook. Sometimes, even leftovers. A wife complaining because her husband only takes her out for dinner once a week (like he did when they were dating) and expecting her to cook the rest of the time (which he never did when dating), is a woman who never wanted to be a wife.

And that's fine. If a woman wants to be an eternal girlfriend, she should simply be honest with herself and the men she dates. She shouldn't marry a man and then complain because he treats her like his wife, rather than his girlfriend.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> It's an audition in a way. That means you are showing her who you are and seeing if you are compatible. You take her on dates, bring her flowers, be romantic and meet her needs. If all of a sudden you get a ring on and say "I just did that to catch you, now I'm done" it's no better than a woman having all kinds of sex with you during the audition period just to get you and then stopping once the ring is on. It's a bait and switch.
> 
> You don't stop what made your partner want you and find you compatible after you get married or your partner will no longer want you and find you compatible.



I think the vernacular is just all wrong.

It's absurd to expect people to continue "courting" or "auditioning" after marriage. That has never been the definition of marriage. 

Spending time together should be about doing something that's genuinely, mutually enjoyable. It should originate from an organic place that both people involved want, without a thought to ulterior motives. 

You say "I love you baby" because you mean it, not because it'll get you sex.

You go out to eat together because you enjoy their company over good food, not because it'll get you sex.

You buy her flowers because you love to see her face light up, not because, again, it'll get you sex.

There is something IMO that's very, very wrong about telling people that they should be prepared to spend the next 50 or so years treating their marriage like one long, perpetual date. What's the point? From the male perspective why do that when you can stay single, keep dating, and have a variety of different women?

If marriage = dating, as a means to unlock sex, what's the point of marriage? I thought marriage was suppose to involve deeper, richer, more profound stuff than "I need to be constantly wooed to want your ass".

Marriage is a fundamentally different thing than dating or courting. If a person requires constant, endless courting than they should stay constantly, endlessly single.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

BronzeTorpedo said:


> I'm not suggesting that, after marriage, men should quit their jobs and wear a butt groove in the couch because their work is done. I'm simply drawing a distinction between wives and girlfriends that makes many people uncomfortable. Marriage changes things. Or, at least it should.
> 
> When courting, dinner out is expected. Girlfriends get to paint the town red on Friday night. Wives eat with their husbands every single night. Most men can't afford to take their wives out for every dinner the way they did with their girlfriends. Out of necessity, wives have to cook. Sometimes, even leftovers. A wife complaining because her husband only takes her out for dinner once a week (like he did when they were dating) and expecting her to cook the rest of the time (which he never did when dating), is a woman who never wanted to be a wife.
> 
> And that's fine. If a woman wants to be an eternal girlfriend, she should simply be honest with herself and the men she dates. She shouldn't marry a man and then complain because he treats her like his wife, rather than his girlfriend.


Why is the wife cooking dinner? Husband can cook too 

But no one is complaining that they don't get to go out on a date every day. That's not even realistic in dating. We should be able to expect that our husbands will continue to make the effort to date us, do nice things to meet our needs, be romantic and woo us. They can do that in many different ways. 
That should be what _is _considered a wife.

And it's the same for you, if you would treat a girlfriend better than you would treat a wife, stick to girlfriends.


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Why do all you M F'ers think I need to get in shape? I'm training for a half marathon, I ride my mountain bike. Damn! You've never even seen me.


You wrote that you were 20-30 pounds overweight.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Why do all you M F'ers think I need to get in shape? I'm training for a half marathon, I ride my mountain bike. Damn! You've never even seen me.


watch your language, young man. you sure lost weight quick!!


ok then. you're ready for lesson 2, grasshopper...

when you come up to her to hug her. just use one hand. bring it back behind her and hold her in the small of her back. start to draw her close. look into her eyes, tell her you love her and always loved her. as she's drawn closer with that one hand, kiss her lightly on her cheek, then as you draw her to you, kiss her on the lips. 10-20 second kiss. and mean it.

practice frequently. Lesson 3 will be the same, but gently, you caveman you...

lesson 4 will be bring her to the ocean, with a long beach. ride some horses on the beach in the moonlight. it is called romance. (i actually did this) it works. get creative. make love to her mind. that starts the moment you wake in the morning. all day long. texting makes it easy. calls during a break. 

ive even eaten lunch together - well at the same time my W does. shes even sent me a pic of her lunch and I did back. connect with her emotionally.

women are not f buddies.

ETA: Oh, and let her know you miss her when apart.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> And it's the same for you, if you would treat a girlfriend better than you would treat a wife, stick to girlfriends.


I did not pay the rent or provide a high level of financial security for my girlfriend. Maybe I should have stuck with girlfriends

Don't get me wrong, I'm not entirely on one side or the other of this discussion but there are some merits to the marriage is a bit different argument.


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Why is the wife cooking dinner? Husband can cook too


I don't know why my generalizations signature doesn't show up in every post. It's only about 1 in 5.



> But no one is complaining that they don't get to go out on a date every day. That's not even realistic in dating.


The OP stated that he takes his wife out once a week and was told that isn't enough. I think a minimum of 15 hours of non-family dating time per week was the advice.



> We should be able to expect that our husbands will continue to make the effort to date us, do nice things to meet our needs, be romantic and woo us. They can do that in many different ways.
> That should be what _is _considered a wife.


Husbands can be nice and meet their wives' needs without eternal auditioning with the Sword of Damocles hanging over their heads in the form of little, or no, commitment by the wives.



> And it's the same for you, if you would treat a girlfriend better than you would treat a wife, stick to girlfriends.


I'm not suggesting that men should treat girlfriends better than wives. I'm suggesting that men should treat girlfriends differently than wives. It amazes me that my suggestion is controversial.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> When there are issues with sex, it's usually because there are problems in the rest of the relationship. Fix the relationship and the sex will follow.
> 
> What other problems are in your relationship?
> 
> ...


Disagree, I think it's because she got what she wanted and now doesn't believe she has "responsibilities" in the marriage.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

15 hours a week does not have to be an outside date. It can be alone time after the kids are in bed or in the morning before they wake up, weekend outings. It's not just dinner dates.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_attn.html

also note in the link
But fifteen hours a week is usually not nearly enough time for couples that are not yet in love. To help them jump-start their relationship, I usually suggest twenty-five or thirty hours a week of undivided attention until they are both in love with each other again.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Why is the wife cooking dinner? Husband can cook too


I have to say my husband is an awesome cook. 



BronzeTorpedo said:


> The OP stated that he takes his wife out once a week and was told that isn't enough. I think a minimum of 15 hours of non-family dating time per week was the advice.


You misread that part. It was 15 hours of one on one time, without the kids. That does not mean going out of the home on a date and spending money, it just means it's the 2 of them without interruptions/others around. 

For my own family, our son goes to bed at around 8 and after that is alone time for my husband and I, so we can get a few hours every night(if I'm not working). That is the time for us to talk and connect. I don't recommend mindlessly watching tv or movies, as you may be with each other physically, but it doesn't really bring you closer together emotionally.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Anonymous07 said:


> I don't recommend mindlessly watching tv or movies, as you may be with each other physically, but it doesn't really bring you closer together emotionally.


I'll second that. Watching tv with my SO doesn't work as "together time" even though we are alone. Talking with each other and focusing on each other doesn't happen easily while focused on tv. 

I turn on music instead, and that works really well for conversation and connecting (and encourages dancing around the living room).


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Q tip said:


> watch your language, young man. you sure lost weight quick!!
> 
> 
> ok then. you're ready for lesson 2, grasshopper...
> ...



Where is the emoticon for dreamy sigh?


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Where is the emoticon for dreamy sigh?


now thats a cute comment. 

generally, all my other get buf comments is the visual. a guy in shape doing that just seems better than an inexcusably smelly, fat slob of a man doing the same thing.

its one thing a guy has control over. his physique.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Q tip said:


> now thats a cute comment.
> 
> generally, all my other get buf comments is the visual. a guy in shape doing that just seems better than an inexcusably smelly, fat slob of a man doing the same thing.
> 
> its one thing a guy has control over. his physique.


True. But if Daniel Craig took me to dinne and acted like a d!ck,... Oh who am I kidding! it's Daniel Craig for crying out loud!


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> True. But if Daniel Craig took me to dinne and acted like a d!ck,... Oh who am I kidding! it's Daniel Craig for crying out loud!


:lol::rofl::iagree::smthumbup::rofl::lol:


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> We should be able to expect that our husbands will continue to make the effort to date us, do nice things to meet our needs, be romantic and woo us. They can do that in many different ways.



I certainly hope any woman expecting this is likewise giving back the same treatment in kind. If that's the case, and she's willing to continue pursuing him, I totally get how that would work.

If she isn't? What's the point?



Anonymous07 said:


> I don't recommend mindlessly watching tv or movies, as you may be with each other physically, but it doesn't really bring you closer together emotionally.


I recommend people doing what works for them and theirs. My wife and I always pick a couple of shows to watch mutually and catch up when we can. Watching one of our mutually enjoyable TV shows, usually while having dinner or a snack, is one of our favorite bonding things to do. It's connecting, fun and far from "mindless".


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

BronzeTorpedo said:


> You wrote that you were 20-30 pounds overweight.


Yes.... Big deal. My "ideal weight" is so low, I would look malnourished. I'm healthy and not a fat ass. With that said, my wife is too concerned with her own weight to be worried about me. I'm really not concerned that my weight is an issue with her.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> 15 hours a week does not have to be an outside date. It can be alone time after the kids are in bed or in the morning before they wake up, weekend outings. It's not just dinner dates.
> 
> The Policy of Unidivided Attention
> 
> ...


I get it. I get it. I wasn't thinking it just meant date night.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

jaquen said:


> I certainly hope any woman expecting this is likewise giving back the same treatment in kind. If that's the case, and she's willing to continue pursuing him, I totally get how that would work.
> 
> If she isn't? What's the point?.


DING! DING! We have a winner!!!


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Yes.... Big deal. My "ideal weight" is so low, I would look malnourished. I'm healthy and not a fat ass. With that said, my wife is too concerned with her own weight to be worried about me. I'm really not concerned that my weight is an issue with her.


you communicate just fine here. do you and your wife communicate as well..?

communication is ever so important.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Yes.... Big deal. My "ideal weight" is so low, I would look malnourished. I'm healthy and not a fat ass. With that said, my wife is too concerned with her own weight to be worried about me. I'm really not concerned that my weight is an issue with her.


perhaps her weight is an issue to her.. has she, does she exercise? offer to go with her to do what she likes to do. hike, bike... so she gets active and drops weight. good for some alone time too.

depending on her age... a book for her/you 
What Your Doctor May not Tell You About Premenopause
-Balance your Hormones and our life From 30-50

by Drs. John R Lee and Jesse Hanley


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

LuvIsTuff said:


> DING! DING! We have a winner!!!


Hey! That my line!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jaquen said:


> I certainly hope any woman expecting this is likewise giving back the same treatment in kind. If that's the case, and she's willing to continue pursuing him, I totally get how that would work.
> 
> If she isn't? What's the point?.





LuvIsTuff said:


> DING! DING! We have a winner!!!


The name of the book is "*His Needs, Her Needs*" ..... see.. there "*HIS & Her*"


This is not about one gender doing anything that is not expected from the other.

Anyone who thinks that marriage means that you fool someone into marrying them by pretending to be someone that they are not.. and then marrying the person and then reverting to who they really are is making a grave mistake. Some men and women do this. It's not a trait of just one gender.

LuvIsTuff is getting input here to take certain actions because he is the one who is here. We cannot talk to his wife because she's not here.

The person who is here seeking advice will be the one who gets the advice/input on the things that they can do and how they can take action to influence change in their marriage.

If LuvIsTuff's wife were here, she would get slightly different suggested actions.

However the rest of the advice is the same. Get the books "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters", read them with your spouse and the two of you do the work that the books guide you through.

The point is that BOTH spouses need to identify their needs, tell the other how to meet them and then get busy meeting each other's needs.

This is not a one time thing either. People's needs change over time. It can be a drastic change due to many things. Doing the needs and love buster assessment every 6-12 months is advisable.

It's just like the 5 languages of love book.... just because a person has what they call a 'love language' years ago.. it does not mean that it is still their love language.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

The standard advice, and book suggestions, are often on point.

But they are often prescribed regardless of what the OP says. 

In this thread I'm feeling like a lot of what the man IS doing is being skimmed over. Several suggestions are being thrown out that he's already said, ad nauseum, that he's done.

Also what she's doing is being ignored. Again, he said the sex dropped off as soon as they got married. On the honeymoon. Long after the morning sickness passed, the baby was born, and growing up, still the sex was on a steady slide down. There was a distinct, immediate change in behavior from dating to marriage, almost instant, according to the OP.

So he was speaking her love language just fine a couple weeks before the wedding but suddenly lost that ability when the ring slipped on?

It seems like more is going on here than the usual "treat her right". Especially since, after much communication, not to mention change of behavior, she still flat out told him that she's just never going to be who he wants her to be. Sounds like this is way beyond a couple marriage books and a few date nights.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jaquen said:


> The standard advice, and book suggestions, are often on point.
> 
> But they are often prescribed regardless of what the OP says.


I suggested the books based specifically on what he has said. He and he wife spend maybe one (1) hour a week alone doing things to build their non-sexual intimacy. 



jaquen said:


> In this thread I'm feeling like a lot of what the man IS doing is being skimmed over. Several suggestions are being thrown out that he's already said, ad nauseum, that he's done.


I disagree. What has been thrown out that he is doing? He has not made spending quality time with just her, alone a priority for years. She has not made it that either. But one of them has to make the first move.
What else is he doing? He gets her gifts sometimes. Well there are a lot more needs than gifts. The love languages book is useful but very incomplete. There other books go into what needs are, identifying them, and meeting them in much greater depth.



jaquen said:


> Also what she's doing is being ignored. Again, he said the sex dropped off as soon as they got married. On the honeymoon. Long after the morning sickness passed, the baby was born, and growing up, still the sex was on a steady slide down. There was a distinct, immediate change in behavior from dating to marriage, almost instant, according to the OP.


What do you want us to do? We cannot talk to her. If we could then we could address what she is and is not doing. It’s his job to address what she is not doing. The books that have been suggested are not just about spending time together. The book “His Needs, Her Needs” talks A LOT to women about a man’s need for sex, why it’s important and why she needs to meet that need. I don’t know about you, but my thought is that his wife needs to read that… she needs to realize that if she does not find a way to increase her own desire for sex, she is most likely going to lose him. 
Here I am trying very hard to get him to have her read that book because she needs to read it. But so many other are calling it faminizi, and telling the OP to ignore it, and so forth.


jaquen said:


> So he was speaking her love language just fine a couple weeks before the wedding but suddenly lost that ability when the ring slipped on?


It happens. I’ve had it happen to me. I know quite a few women who this has happened to. As soon as they married, their husband stopped doing things like spending time together and just about everything else that they used to do before marriage. His wife is not here to give her side of the story. Almost every time that both the husband and wife have come here and posted, the story changes quite with bit with both of them. 


jaquen said:


> It seems like more is going on here than the usual "treat her right".


There are several things that the OP can try. Going through the “His Needs, Her Needs” and “Love Busters” process is often very successful. It’s worth him giving it a very good, solid try.



jaquen said:


> Especially since, after much communication, not to mention change of behavior, she still flat out told him that she's just never going to be who he wants her to be. Sounds like this is way beyond a couple marriage books and a few date nights.


It’s not about a few date nights. If that’s what you think that “His Needs, Her Needs” is about, you don’t understand the book.

Yes, she told him that she is not going to be who he wants her to be. He wants her to be a wife who he give zero non-sexual intimacy to but wants her just jump his bones when he wants it. Few, if any women, would be that woman.

I’m very high drive. But I would not want to have sex with a husband who would not spend time with just me. I left a husband because that, lack of no-sexual intimacy was so lacking.. not more than 1 hour a week. Sex is important. Non-sexual intimacy is equally as important.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> What else is he doing? He gets her gifts sometimes...Yes, she told him that she is not going to be who he wants her to be. He wants her to be a wife who he give zero non-sexual intimacy to but wants her just jump his bones when he wants it. Few, if any women, would be that woman.



You make a lot of good points, but I want to address these points because, again, I think the OP is being misrepresented or a lot of what he has done is being dismissed. Especially the claim that he's not giving her "non-sexual intimacy":



LuvIsTuff said:


> I try to be very romantic for her, and sometimes it turns her on.





LuvIsTuff said:


> We have talked about the problem many times.





LuvIsTuff said:


> We've talked many times over the years about her needs. I was lousy at meeting them for a long time, but that has changed dramatically. I finally "got it" about 4-5 years ago. I am uber affectionate, romantic, etc... It's actually to a point where some have told me it's too much. I'm trying to find a middle ground.





LuvIsTuff said:


> I work very hard to meet her emotional needs, but there's little no reciprocation.





LuvIsTuff said:


> I would have to say yes. She's a happy person, especially when we're together. She often tells me that she's lucky to have me and that she can't imagine what her life would be like without me.





LuvIsTuff said:


> I do so much for her, I lost track of what day it was.





LuvIsTuff said:


> However, there are times that she does take a shower with me, or I'll hop in with her unexpectedly, and I intentionally leave anything sexual out of it. She'll almost always ask me "do you need me to....for you" Sometimes I'll say no and tell her "I just wanted to take a shower with you." So, it's not a given that the only reason I would ask her to shower with me is because I want something.





LuvIsTuff said:


> As for the love language, she is a "gifts" person... I periodically give her gifts(since her language is the only one that costs money, it's not as easy as "words of affirmation" or "physical touch")...On a regular basis I come home with little things for her, just to let her know I was thinking about her...she seems to appreciate it. But, as with most everything else, it doesn't lead to anything.





LuvIsTuff said:


> We spend A TON of time together. It's not "alone" time, but we're together a lot.





LuvIsTuff said:


> We sit together on our loveseat every night, laughing at whatever stupid tv show we're watching, and I hold her, stroke her hair, rub her shoulders, and show her affection for at least 1 hour every night.





LuvIsTuff said:


> We go out to eat together 2-3 times a week.





LuvIsTuff said:


> I drop by her office to see her on a regular basis.


I feel like a lot of women are getting far less from their husbands, and aren't withholding sex or totally lacking in desire for them.

How much is enough to give before he gets SOMETHING, anything, in return?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LuvIsTuff,

What are your wife's emotional needs that you have been trying to meet for a long time?

You mention buying her gifts at times.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jaquen said:


> You make a lot of good points, but I want to address these points because, again, I think the OP is being misrepresented or a lot of what he has done is being dismissed. Especially the claim that he's not giving her "non-sexual intimacy":


Just to address a few....



LuvIsTuff said:


> I work very hard to meet her emotional needs, but there's little no reciprocation.


The only need that the OP talks about is sex. Is that his only need? Or are there other needs of his that she is meeting. I'll bet that there are.

Most people have no idea what emotional needs really are. No one teaches us this. So we get into a marriage and are clueless. All we (men and women) know most of the time is that something does not feel right. We don’t know what our needs are and we don’t know what we need to have them met. This is a chance for Op and his wife to learn more about themselves and each other. And hopefully they will figure out the solution to their problems.



LuvIsTuff said:


> We have talked about the problem many times.


What are the problems that they talk about? The only problem that he has mentioned is that he does not get sex as often as he wants. What are the problems that she brings up? 



LuvIsTuff said:


> We spend A TON of time together. It's not "alone" time, but we're together a lot.


They spend a lot of time with other people. That is not quality, one-on-one time. Alone time is extremely important.. but he says it's about 1 hour a week. That is not enough.



LuvIsTuff said:


> We go out to eat together 2-3 times a week.


Not the two of them alone. This is with their children and/or other people. Again this is not the kind of thing that creates intimacy.

He took her out to eat this last week, just the two of them. She was so touched that she was close to crying. Her reaction to this one meal at a sandwich shop is very telling.



jaquen said:


> I feel like a lot of women are getting far less from their husbands, and aren't withholding sex or totally lacking in desire for them.
> 
> How much is enough to give before he gets SOMETHING, anything, in return?


So what if some women get far less. I had a husband who not only would not spend time with me but was very verbally/emotionally and physically abusive. Would it make sense for me to say well.. at least he does not beat her? Of course not.

Some husbands have wives who are not as good as LuvIsTuff's wife. Should we say that some men get a lot less from their wives so he should just stop wanting a better marriage? Of course not.

The OP is obviously not on ogre to his wife. Nor is she to him. It is very possible that some fine tuning could turn their marriage around. 

I don't know his wife. Nor do you. She is not here to tell her side of things. So treading carefully is important. 

Absolutely no harm will come to LuvIsTuff if he and his wife go through the process of identifying and working on meeting each other's needs. It's worth a try. Starting there and giving her the benefit of the doubt that she's just not a cruel, hateful, withhold, ice queen hurts no one.

He can give it 3-6 months. See if things get better.

There is also marriage counseling that might help them… with a MC who is also a sex therapists.


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## jolyajones (Feb 25, 2015)

somethings are necessary in this relationship like be care,give a full response, give a proper time, no follow,etc, i think you mistake something in your relationship. off course that relation is great to every one. so compromise is the best option for you.... some day does not taking for her... make dramatic mood. i hope you will success in your darma.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Q tip said:


> perhaps her weight is an issue to her.. has she, does she exercise? offer to go with her to do what she likes to do. hike, bike... so she gets active and drops weight. good for some alone time too.
> 
> depending on her age... a book for her/you
> What Your Doctor May not Tell You About Premenopause
> ...


She works out more than me. She's the one that got me to sign up for the half marathon I'm training for. She's run 3 of them in the past year and has one this weekend. She did crossfit for several months recently, but it got too expensive. She is self conscious about her weight because she knows she doesn't look like she did when we got married, or even 5 years ago. I tell her every day how beautiful she is, and she usually responds with "whatever, I'm a fat ass". Obviously it's an issue.....


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> Just to address a few....
> 
> He took her out to eat this last week, just the two of them. She was so touched that she was close to crying. Her reaction to this one meal at a sandwich shop is very telling.
> 
> ...


A week ago, I wouldn't have thought that "fine tuning" was all we needed. It seemed much deeper. But I've spent the past week reading your advice, taking it to heart, and putting it to action. I had already been treating her differently for quite a while, but a few little additions seem to have made a big difference. I can already see a change in my wife's attitude and she is actually becoming a little bit playful from a sexual standpoint. I love it when she's playful!!!!!

Last night, long before we went to bed, I gave her a few flirtatious comments and she played along. 2 minutes later, we were in our room with the door locked and the kids were in the living room watching tv. :smthumbup: That's 2 times in 5 days. I can't remember the last time we had sex 2 times in a week. Usually it's 2 times a month. And, even better, it was spontaneous. That is VERY rare.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

:smthumbup:
So happy you're making progress. Sometimes it can take a bit to see any changes so people think it's not working and give up. 
Just don't forget to keep up the changes, don't settle back into the rut once you have all you need.


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## dtc37 (Nov 18, 2014)

I'll tell you the truth. I haven't read trough the whole thread. So I don't know the details but what has worked for me in the past. Is get busy. Occupy your mind with work or hobbies Nothing turned my girl on more than me doing what I love WITHOUT her.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LuvIsTuff said:


> A week ago, I wouldn't have thought that "fine tuning" was all we needed. It seemed much deeper. But I've spent the past week reading your advice, taking it to heart, and putting it to action. I had already been treating her differently for quite a while, but a few little additions seem to have made a big difference. I can already see a change in my wife's attitude and she is actually becoming a little bit playful from a sexual standpoint. I love it when she's playful!!!!!
> 
> Last night, long before we went to bed, I gave her a few flirtatious comments and she played along. 2 minutes later, we were in our room with the door locked and the kids were in the living room watching tv. :smthumbup: That's 2 times in 5 days. I can't remember the last time we had sex 2 times in a week. Usually it's 2 times a month. And, even better, it was spontaneous. That is VERY rare.



You rock!!!! You are taking the lead in changing your marriage in a very positive way.

Keep it up.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

never stop romancing that woman. non-romance time is important too as mentioned.

get creative too. like dancing, she is programmed to respond. 

gotta get back to that moonlit beach...


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Q tip said:


> never stop romancing that woman. non-romance time is important too as mentioned.
> 
> get creative too. like dancing, she is programmed to respond.
> 
> gotta get back to that moonlit beach...


I just booked a weekend getaway in Galveston(an island on the Gulf of Mexico, in Texas, for those who aren't from these parts) on March 13-15. They have 20 miles of beaches. Got a babysitter keeping our daughter the whole weekend and my son is 18, so he can figure something out. LOL


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

the moon should be in its final quarter. those days it should be 53% to 30% visible.

with clear skies, should cast a nice glow on the water and sand

all the best!


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Q tip said:


> wow...!!!! please re read. i NEVER said to make anyone jealous. its just that a woman will not be jealous if other women check her H out. shes proud if you will. an immature guy might be, but typically not the ladies.


I don't think this is quite true. My sense is that nice comments about a woman's husband would make her proud. Actually checking him out would likely generate some unhappiness if not outright jealousy. You can add some anger if the wife knows the woman who is doing the checking.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

DTO said:


> I don't think this is quite true. My sense is that nice comments about a woman's husband would make her proud. Actually checking him out would likely generate some unhappiness if not outright jealousy. You can add some anger if the wife knows the woman who is doing the checking.



I added no details like this. Just my experience with my W. Perhaps she gets it.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Anonymous07 said:


> Being in shape is great and healthier for you, but don't think that it will fix sex problems. I'll have to disagree with the above. My husband is in great shape and very attractive, but if he isn't being a loving husband then don't expect me to want sex. I need an emotional connection to want sex. Brad Pitt could walk by, but it doesn't mean I want to jump his bones. There has to be more than just 'good looks'.


I think whether it works depends on the reason for the sexlessness. If the guy is a flat out d!ck, then yeah him getting in shape won't help.

But, if it is the type of sexlessness where the lady just does not bother (LD, menopause, etc.) then seeing her guy improving himself might make her feel she has to step it up to compete.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Somebody pinch me, I think I'm dreaming...... 

This morning, out of nowhere, my wife says "you want to take a shower with me"? Uhhhhhhhh YES! :smthumbup: Sex 3 times in 1 week is simply unbelievable. Not trying to "rub it in" with anyone. Maybe "rub one out", but not rub it in.... Thanks for all the ideas!!!!!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Somebody pinch me, I think I'm dreaming......
> 
> This morning, out of nowhere, my wife says "you want to take a shower with me"? Uhhhhhhhh YES! :smthumbup: Sex 3 times in 1 week is simply unbelievable. Not trying to "rub it in" with anyone. Maybe "rub one out", but not rub it in.... Thanks for all the ideas!!!!!


Here's a pinch...

Dear wife, 

This past week has been a wonderful boost for me. I love you so much but I also need to feel loved by you and when we don't have sex very often, I don't feel loved. But this week you have made me feel like the luckiest man on the planet! 

I love everything about your body. To me you are the sexiest woman I've ever seen. No one can hold a candle to you in my eyes! I only wish I could make you see your self as the stunning woman that I see.

I want to ensure the passion that we've shared this week continues so I want to ask you to confide in me if there is something I've done differently that you're responding to? I'd like to know so that I can do more of it!

The sex this week has been awesome! I love being able to show you how much I love and desire you and your hot body!


...amend as you see fit. The goal is to communicate your happiness and discover what if anything has been pushing her erotic buttons or what obstacles have been recently removed.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Somebody pinch me, I think I'm dreaming......
> 
> This morning, out of nowhere, my wife says "you want to take a shower with me"? Uhhhhhhhh YES! :smthumbup: Sex 3 times in 1 week is simply unbelievable. Not trying to "rub it in" with anyone. Maybe "rub one out", but not rub it in.... Thanks for all the ideas!!!!!


excellent!!

Bring her flowers this weekend.

You will soon find the energy worrying about and working on about a relationship IS the SAME energy having fun, courting, wining and dining. Get close to her. She feels like the center of the world when you pay attention. Drive your relationship. she'll respond.

..and tomorrow, you make some popcorn and sit down and watch a movie together. While watching the movie, use the tips of your fingers/nails to lightly scratch her scalp, back of neck, hairline, ears... and give her a massage.

The best massage lotion is BIOTONE Advanced Therapy Massage Lotion (Grapeseed, Apricot & Sesame) Get an 8 oz bottle or two off Amazon. She'll love it. It takes away friction and you can actually get in and massage muscles. Absorbs great and not 'oily'

btw, when she talks. LISTEN!! -- to what she says and also the message between the words. You have the power to make her fall in love with you every day. It's as easy as breathing.

Own this!

I've actually got on the internet and ordered tropical flowers from Hawaii and had them Fed Ex'd to my Ws office. "Embarrassing her..." but sure beats Costco. You will pay for the embarrassment.

OK, fun stuff galore to get creative on. You also gotta sit down and talk to her about her and you. - and listen to her about her and you. Communication is so bloody important in marriage.

Marriage is seriously fun. Makes the hard parts worth it.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> Here's a pinch...
> 
> Dear wife,
> 
> ...


Where's the "love" this option? "Like" isn't good enough. LOL


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## yeahman (Feb 25, 2015)

Wow, I am going through a similar thing, my wife and I have sex maybe 1-2 times a month, we are in our early 30's and have been married for 7 yrs this yr, she just not interested like I am. SHe said thats not something of importance. Im going crazy!! SO I have to have dates with "PALMala-anderson" if you know what I mean. :smthumbup: but nothing I can really do but wait for my 1-2 times a day, I ahve no desire whatsoever to step out on her so I would rather just masturbate.

uggghhh!!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

yeahman said:


> Wow, I am going through a similar thing, my wife and I have sex maybe 1-2 times a month, we are in our early 30's and have been married for 7 yrs this yr, she just not interested like I am. SHe said thats not something of importance. Im going crazy!! SO I have to have dates with "PALMala-anderson" if you know what I mean. :smthumbup: but nothing I can really do but wait for my 1-2 times a day, I ahve no desire whatsoever to step out on her so I would rather just masturbate.
> 
> uggghhh!!


Did you even read all of the posts on this thread?


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

yeahman...

Well, just like that sham of a movie, 50 shades... show some genuinely intense desire for your lady. 

What's wrong with guys these days. Its called Romance. Ladies do like it. It starts in the kitchen, not the bedroom! look in the mirror. make what you see worthwhile.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> You rock!!!! You are taking the lead in changing your marriage in a very positive way.
> 
> Keep it up.


Well, EleGirl, the book came in last week(His Needs Her Needs). I read about half of it on Friday and got so frustrated that I stopped. Here's why.... Nothing I've read so far is anything I didn't already know. I shower this woman with affection and nothing changes. We have intimate conversations and nothing changes. No matter what I do to meet her needs, it doesn't change her willingness, or even worse, her desire to meet my biggest need. I give, give, and give some more, for nothing in return. The more I read books like this the more it shows me that she's simply not interested in me from a sexual standpoint, which is exactly what the title of this thread said from the beginning.


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## AlphaMale74 (Oct 15, 2014)

The sex-starved marriage | Michele Weiner-Davis | TEDxCU: https://youtu.be/Ep2MAx95m20


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

AlphaMale74 said:


> The sex-starved marriage | Michele Weiner-Davis | TEDxCU: https://youtu.be/Ep2MAx95m20


Holy crap! She was talking directly to me.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Bump, for EleGirl.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Well, EleGirl, the book came in last week(His Needs Her Needs). I read about half of it on Friday and got so frustrated that I stopped. Here's why.... Nothing I've read so far is anything I didn't already know. I shower this woman with affection and nothing changes. We have intimate conversations and nothing changes. No matter what I do to meet her needs, it doesn't change her willingness, or even worse, her desire to meet my biggest need. I give, give, and give some more, for nothing in return. The more I read books like this the more it shows me that she's simply not interested in me from a sexual standpoint, which is exactly what the title of this thread said from the beginning.


Did you ask her to read it and work through it with you?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

AlphaMale74 said:


> The sex-starved marriage | Michele Weiner-Davis | TEDxCU: https://youtu.be/Ep2MAx95m20


This is an excellent Ted talk. She's really good at what she does.

LuvIsTuff, your wife needs to see this with you.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Did you read neuklas's instructions?


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> This is an excellent Ted talk. She's really good at what she does.
> 
> LuvIsTuff, your wife needs to see this with you.


I watched it and cried. It's a mirror image of my life. I've had so many talks with my wife about this that I honestly don't think it would change anything for her to see it. She'd likely see it as me badgering her more than anything else.

And to your previous question, no, I did not have her read it with me. Again, like the video, I've talked to her so many times, mentioned books, tried to get her to watch marriage counselor videos on YouTube, and she shows no interest. There's a guy named Mark Gungor who has a great marriage conference on YouTube and I tried to get her to watch the whole thing with me and she didn't make it past 30 minutes.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

LongWalk said:


> Did you read neuklas's instructions?


Yes, at length..... I'm 2 weeks in to the "soft 180" concept, but it doesn't seem to be doing anything. It almost seems like my wife is glad I'm not around as much, not going out of my way to be romantic, etc..... She's almost in a better mood with who I've been the last few weeks than she was before. Not sure if that's supposed to be the case. All I know is I'm already a bit tired of the bottle of lotion.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

BronzeTorpedo said:


> I'm not suggesting that, after marriage, men should quit their jobs and wear a butt groove in the couch because their work is done. I'm simply drawing a distinction between wives and girlfriends that makes many people uncomfortable. Marriage changes things. Or, at least it should.
> 
> When courting, dinner out is expected. Girlfriends get to paint the town red on Friday night. Wives eat with their husbands every single night. Most men can't afford to take their wives out for every dinner the way they did with their girlfriends. Out of necessity, wives have to cook. Sometimes, even leftovers. A wife complaining because her husband only takes her out for dinner once a week (like he did when they were dating) and expecting her to cook the rest of the time (which he never did when dating), is a woman who never wanted to be a wife.
> 
> And that's fine. If a woman wants to be an eternal girlfriend, she should simply be honest with herself and the men she dates. She shouldn't marry a man and then complain because he treats her like his wife, rather than his girlfriend.


.........

Someone PLEASE tell me that, in the year 2015, I didn't just read this?


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## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Yes, at length..... I'm 2 weeks in to the "soft 180" concept, but it doesn't seem to be doing anything. It almost seems like my wife is glad I'm not around as much, not going out of my way to be romantic, etc..... She's almost in a better mood with who I've been the last few weeks than she was before. Not sure if that's supposed to be the case. All I know is I'm already a bit tired of the bottle of lotion.


Bullsh!t. Your tactics change like a weather vane in a tornado and when people say things you don't like, you bolt. You're not charismatically aloof and happily independent at all. You're scheming, conniving, strategizing, triangulating - whatever you can think of to get la!d. I don't know what you think you know about the soft-180, but nothing I've read from you so far makes me think you know what it is, much less that it's the path you've been on for 2 weeks. 

As an example, what stage of the soft-180 is the one where you ask her to read books with you and discuss, or sit down and watch a youtube video while you cry?

Have you read Mem's temperature thread? If you really want to understand why you're self-sabotaging, read that. And then read it again. After you understand it, perhaps you'll be in a position to choose a path and stick to it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I watched it and cried. It's a mirror image of my life. I've had so many talks with my wife about this that I honestly don't think it would change anything for her to see it. She'd likely see it as me badgering her more than anything else.
> 
> And to your previous question, no, I did not have her read it with me. Again, like the video, I've talked to her so many times, mentioned books, tried to get her to watch marriage counselor videos on YouTube, and she shows no interest. There's a guy named Mark Gungor who has a great marriage conference on YouTube and I tried to get her to watch the whole thing with me and she didn't make it past 30 minutes.


How often are you and your wife having sex?


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Created2Write said:


> .........
> 
> Someone PLEASE tell me that, in the year 2015, I didn't just read this?


:rofl:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Yes, at length..... I'm 2 weeks in to the "soft 180" concept, but it doesn't seem to be doing anything. It almost seems like my wife is glad I'm not around as much, not going out of my way to be romantic, etc..... She's almost in a better mood with who I've been the last few weeks than she was before. Not sure if that's supposed to be the case. All I know is I'm already a bit tired of the bottle of lotion.


I have no clue what a "soft 180" is. I've never seen that list. Could you please share what a "soft 180" is so that we can understand what you are doing?


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

I'm confused...it sounded like things were getting better for you, LuvIsTuff?


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> .........
> 
> Someone PLEASE tell me that, in the year 2015, I didn't just read this?


Be careful C2W, you might get painted as a ....MAN HATER!!


Oh
The
Horror.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> Be careful C2W, you might get painted as a ....MAN HATER!!
> 
> 
> Oh
> ...


That ship has long since sailed, Anon. Only yesterday I was told that I had an, "all men are pigs" mentality. rofl. If I told that to my husband, his response would be, "Does that mean you want me to get...dirty?"


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

justamale51 said:


> Read this! The female libido and 'the two-year itch' - Macleans.ca


"a big part of what triggers female desire is to be desired. "


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Yes, at length..... I'm 2 weeks in to the "soft 180" concept, but it doesn't seem to be doing anything. It almost seems like my wife is glad I'm not around as much, not going out of my way to be romantic, etc..... She's almost in a better mood with who I've been the last few weeks than she was before. Not sure if that's supposed to be the case. All I know is I'm already a bit tired of the bottle of lotion.


You were doing great... started finally spending some time with your wife. She was upping the sex with you. Then you got all emo and stopped.....


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Well, EleGirl, the book came in last week(His Needs Her Needs). I read about half of it on Friday and got so frustrated that I stopped. Here's why.... Nothing I've read so far is anything I didn't already know. I shower this woman with affection and nothing changes. We have intimate conversations and nothing changes. *No matter what I do to meet her needs, it doesn't change her willingness, or even worse, her desire to meet my biggest need. *I give, give, and give some more, for nothing in return. The more I read books like this the more it shows me that she's simply not interested in me from a sexual standpoint, which is exactly what the title of this thread said from the beginning.


When you started posting here you said that you spend maybe one hours a week with your wife, just the two of you. So no you have not been doing that the book says. You probably did not do it because you did not know that spending at least 15 hours a week with your wife, just the two of you is so important that it has to be the basic foundation of your marriage.

When you did a few things with her, your sex life increased. 

I think that the reason she will not read the books, or watch videos is that you have one goal in mind... more sex. She knows that you are not doing this stuff because you adore, love and desire her. You just want more sex.

Wanting more sex is not the issue. The issue is wanting more sex without the passion, desire and emotional part of the relationship being nurtured. If you do not spend at least 15 hours a week with her you cannot nurture that part of the relationship.. it's just not possible.

The things you are being told to do, like distancing yourself from her (180) is really just more of the same... more of doing anything but building non-sexual intimacy. 

The question of the ages: How can a husband receive the sex he needs in marriage?


----------



## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

EleGirl,

If he puts in the 15 hours a week, and still there is no sex, should he then give up and file for divorce? How many weeks BTW? just curious.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Dogbert said:


> EleGirl,
> 
> If he puts in the 15 hours a week, and still there is no sex, should he then give up and file for divorce? How many weeks BTW? just curious.


He has not put in even close to 15 hours a week. But the few hours he did put in she responded to.

Since a few hours had positive results.. I'd say keep it up as long as it's having a positive result. It is meant to be a life style.. not something you do for a few weeks to get sex. It's about building the connection and passion in a marriage.

Did you read the article at the link I posted?


----------



## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

Created2Write said:


> .........
> 
> Someone PLEASE tell me that, in the year 2015, I didn't just read this?


Heh heh. I guess 2015 is the year of the eternal girlfriend.


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

neuklas said:


> LuvIsTuff said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, at length..... I'm 2 weeks in to the "soft 180" concept, but it doesn't seem to be doing anything. It almost seems like my wife is glad I'm not around as much, not going out of my way to be romantic, etc..... She's almost in a better mood with who I've been the last few weeks than she was before. Not sure if that's supposed to be the case. All I know is I'm already a bit tired of the bottle of lotion.
> ...


You're a tool. Everything you just said is backwards from the truth. I haven't asked her to read any books. I was told that I should, but haven't. We didn't watch a video together. Are you high?


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> LuvIsTuff said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, at length..... I'm 2 weeks in to the "soft 180" concept, but it doesn't seem to be doing anything. It almost seems like my wife is glad I'm not around as much, not going out of my way to be romantic, etc..... She's almost in a better mood with who I've been the last few weeks than she was before. Not sure if that's supposed to be the case. All I know is I'm already a bit tired of the bottle of lotion.
> ...


Ask Neuklas. He's an expert at everything.


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Damn, I wish I knew as much about my life as some of you. Jeez


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Gotta sign off. I'm at the NCAA Sweet 16 in Houston. Left the wife at home and didn't ask her permission to come. Is that acceptable, Neuklas?


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Lila said:


> uhm, not looking to scare you or anything but does your wife know where you're at?
> 
> Dude, you can be charged with abandonment.


For going to a basketball game? Abandonment? Is that a felony or misdemeanor?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Gotta sign off. I'm at the NCAA Sweet 16 in Houston. Left the wife at home and didn't ask her permission to come. Is that acceptable, Neuklas?


Did you go by yourself? with friends? 

How far a trip is this from where you live?

Are you there all weekend?


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Abandonment is more than 48 hours almost everywhere.


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

Lila said:


> I could be wrong, but my impression is that he travelled out of town to watch the games?
> 
> I hope he didn't take off for the weekend to watch the tournament without at least letting his wife know where he was headed.


Our hero lives in Texas. And based on being in Houston for the Sweet 16, I aexpect that he lives in the greater Houston area.

Although with his persistent passive-a-passive behavior towards his wife, he might have driven down from Dallass.......

(If he's from Houston I will have just pissed him off  )


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

You may want to read Dr Robert A. Glover, Ph.D.'s book "No More Mr Nice Guy" especially the part of the "sex moratorium". You can download a free copy *here*.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

WTF did I just read? What is a soft 180? This is the type of thread that makes me grateful for having my wife. Neither of us are into playing games. I'm not perfect. I have flaws. My wife is the same. IMHO, we have a great marriage and a healthy sex life too. Do you want to know why? It's because we work hard at the marriage. We laugh together a lot. We communicate honestly and clearly with each other. We spend a healthy amount of time together alone that involves both intimacy and spending time together as friends. We also work together on chores. We also spend time apart for "me" time too. We respect each other. 

Build the marriage, and intimacy will follow. Caveat is that ther will be a circuit breaker and minimum threshold factors that will come into play. Being in shape, for example, is one that compliments a strong relationship. You don't have to have the golden ratio and big muscles to increase attraction, but being a porker will hurt it even if the marriage is otherwise strong. 

You sir are putting the cart before the horse. Something is amiss in the marriage or in your wife's health. A lack of sex is a symptom of an underlying cause. Rarely is it purely mismatched sex drives, IMO.

ETA, I know you already are in good shape. Just an example of a circuit breaker.


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Sometimes I wonder why I even come on this site. There's some whacky people in here. I live 1 hour from Houston. I'm already home. No abandonment. Lol Went alone, last minute idea. Too tired to respond to all the other questions.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You are sieving for insight


----------



## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Sometimes I wonder why I even come on this site. There's some whacky people in here. I live 1 hour from Houston. I'm already home. No abandonment. Lol Went alone, last minute idea. Too tired to respond to all the other questions.


Dude... Chill

Because people here have witnessed some impulsiveness in you they in their own way were warning you to not break laws while doing the soft 180 while trying to get a read on how far you would take it. 

They were trying to look out for you.


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

NotLikeYou said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > I could be wrong, but my impression is that he travelled out of town to watch the games?
> ...


Dallas? You're banned from this thread.


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Dogbert said:


> You may want to read Dr Robert A. Glover, Ph.D.'s book "No More Mr Nice Guy" especially the part of the "sex moratorium". You can download a free copy *here*.


I read it 3 weeks ago. It was eye opening. It revealed a lot of things from my childhood that have made me who I am today. At no point in my life have I ever been able to be myself out in the open. I was are up with toxic shame. Contrary to Neuklas opinion, I've been following the advice of the book almost to a T. But as I'm doing it, I'm finding that the author may have been right when he said that applying the principles will either make a positive impact on my marriage, or send it to a much needed grave. I'm only 2 weeks in, so the jury is still out, but the grave seems more likely. I hope I'm wrong. 

For anyone thinking I was making real headway with spending 15 hours of quality time(which by the way, we were spending well over 1 hour a week together. Probably closer to 5-10 once I really looked at it closely) or that sex started heading in the right direction, the trip I took my wife was a bit of a kick in the gut. What kind of woman refuses sex after being treated like a queen for a night and saying "let's go get in bed, being the music", instead asks to be held, then jokes the next day about giving me blue balls? Just when I thought we were headed up, SHE let the air out of the balloon. So the very minute we got home, it was No More Mr Nice Guy, and it's been that way ever since. 

I started training for a half marathon and that gets me out of the house every evening. I started pursuing my musical interests and I actually have a meeting today with a band today that sounds like exactly what I would fit in with. I haven't initiated sex in 2 weeks and she certainly hasn't either. The romantic gestures are gone. I haven't called her at work or sent her any sweet text messages, which I used to do daily. I could go on, but you get the point. I'm sticking to the program.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Stick to the program. And stick a fork in this marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> Stick to the program. And stick a fork in this marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for the vote of confidence.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

I believe in you, dude. Re-read neuklas and make his strategy your own.

Be an active listener. There are things that your wife may want from you. Some are shxt tests that you need to pass. Others just require that you understand her.

The more respect you show yourself, the more likely your wife is to reclaim you. But is she doesn't, you'll be strong enough to figure things out.

If she wants a sexless marriage, that's her choice. 

Tell us about your workouts. The music.


----------



## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I read it 3 weeks ago. It was eye opening. It revealed a lot of things from my childhood that have made me who I am today. At no point in my life have I ever been able to be myself out in the open. I was are up with toxic shame. Contrary to Neuklas opinion, I've been following the advice of the book almost to a T. But as I'm doing it, I'm finding that the author may have been right when he said that applying the principles will either make a positive impact on my marriage, or send it to a much needed grave. I'm only 2 weeks in, so the jury is still out, but the grave seems more likely. I hope I'm wrong.
> 
> For anyone thinking I was making real headway with spending 15 hours of quality time(which by the way, we were spending well over 1 hour a week together. Probably closer to 5-10 once I really looked at it closely) or that sex started heading in the right direction, the trip I took my wife was a bit of a kick in the gut. *What kind of woman refuses sex after being treated like a queen for a night and saying "let's go get in bed, being the music", instead asks to be held, then jokes the next day about giving me blue balls?* Just when I thought we were headed up, SHE let the air out of the balloon. So the very minute we got home, it was No More Mr Nice Guy, and it's been that way ever since.
> 
> I started training for a half marathon and that gets me out of the house every evening. I started pursuing my musical interests and I actually have a meeting today with a band today that sounds like exactly what I would fit in with. I haven't initiated sex in 2 weeks and she certainly hasn't either. The romantic gestures are gone. I haven't called her at work or sent her any sweet text messages, which I used to do daily. I could go on, but you get the point. I'm sticking to the program.


Remember the section about "nice guys" creating "covert contracts"? That is what you had in that situation, a covert contract. Less you think that you are the only man who has ever done that, rest assured you are not. The problem with covert contracts is that they seldom, if ever, work. You would do well if you went back and read the book once more. Especially the sections on "covert contracts" and "the sex moratorium".

You should also consider contacting the NMMNG forum and requesting information on a men's support group in your area. Dr Glover's principles work best when combined with a NMMNG oriented men's group.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

What makes a man sexy to a woman?

Answer: Everything that tells her liminal mind that this the right male to protect and further her selfish genes.

Pride and Prejudice gives great insight into what women want. Your wife and many others would likely leave their husbands and boyfriends if a Darcy ardently pursued them. What you have to do is laugh at human nature and not consider it a disappointment. If you were your wife's sexual rejection like egg yolk on your tie, you will not be attractive to her.

If you set up convert contracts to get sex and she folds them into paper boats and sinks them to the bottom with stones, you fade off the radar of desire.

That is why neuklas is cogently outlines the plan.

Work on self. Do not allow her sexual favors to determine your mental health. If you make yourself a better guy, a more self sufficient, less co-dependent person, you will be able to attract her. But if she is tuned out when it comes to you, you will be able to smile and let her go, without being a hapless left behind husband.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

LIT- I get where you are at. 

Just try to live your life independently from her reactions. Don't go seeking a reaction and don't make decisions solely based on her reactions.

The dividing line between action and reaction is not always clear. With practice, it will get clearer.


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Dogbert said:


> Remember the section about "nice guys" creating "covert contracts"? That is what you had in that situation, a covert contract. Less you think that you are the only man who has ever done that, rest assured you are not. The problem with covert contracts is that they seldom, if ever, work. You would do well if you went back and read the book once more. Especially the sections on "covert contracts" and "the sex moratorium".
> 
> You should also consider contacting the NMMNG forum and requesting information on a men's support group in your area. Dr Glover's principles work best when combined with a NMMNG oriented men's group.


I do remember the covert contracts portion and in the past I was really bad about that. But this trip we took wasn't that. We've done these trips before and they are usually sexcapades. To expect that was simply based on past trips. 

I actually read the book again and I got on their forum as well. There are no groups that meet in my area. 

With all that said, I'm now reading His Needs Her Needs. I know it's completely opposite of NMMNG, but a woman suggested it and I'm not opposed to a woman's perspective. In that book, the therapist says that a date night between a husband and wife should meet the top 2 needs of both parties. For a woman, affection and intimate conversation should be experienced. For a man, sexual fulfillment and companionship should be experienced. If both people can have their top 2 needs met, that's the perfect date. In terms of the night away 2 weeks ago, she definitely had her needs met. I on the other hand went to bed with a hard on and a set of blue balls. NOT THE PERFECT DATE, according to His Needs Her Needs.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

LIT- this is why I'm not really down with romance in situations like ours. I think it's unavoidably setting yourself up for a covert contract. You can't help but be disappointed when you don't get laid, which to me indicates there is an expected quid pro quo.

Now if you're getting laid all the time, maybe you can do a romantic night out and just go to sleep afterward without feeling like sh-t. But this is because you know you can just hook up with your wife tomorrow.

If you're not in that type of relationship, these romantic gestures are just futile.


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Anon1111 said:


> LIT- this is why I'm not really down with romance in situations like ours. I think it's unavoidably setting yourself up for a covert contract. You can't help but be disappointed when you don't get laid, which to me indicates there is an expected quid pro quo.
> 
> Now if you're getting laid all the time, maybe you can do a romantic night out and just go to sleep afterward without feeling like sh-t. But this is because you know you can just hook up with your wife tomorrow.
> 
> If you're not in that type of relationship, these romantic gestures are just futile.


I get it, now. It took a long time and thousands of dollars on all sorts of nonsense, but until I see a reason to believe that romance is truly imprtant to her, I'm out. And I'm sure she'll use that as an excuse to not have sex at some point. Damned if you do, damned of you don't....


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

I've had a couple of interesting exchanges with my wife over the past 2 days, and there's no doubt they are connected to my sudden and obvious change that I started a couple of weeks ago. Here's what I'm referring to...

I've been working out a lot; running and riding my mountain bike almost daily. Yesterday I ran in the morning, then in the evening I went for a bike ride. When I was changing clothes for my evening ride, my wife asks where I'm going. I told her I was taking a bike ride and "needed to get a good sweat going and burn some calories". She said "2 workouts in 1 day?" She had a questioning look on her face, but I just said, "yes, I need to drop 20lbs and I need to drop it quick". She didn't respond and I left for my ride.

This morning I was getting dressed for work and because we are in state standardized testing(I'm a coach, and usually dress in shorts and t-shirt for work) I dressed up a bit. She commented on me dressing up, but I told her it was a day of testing and we dress nice on those days. I then put on some cologne and she said "dressing nice and wearing cologne? Who are you going to see"? I just laughed it off and said, I'm just going to work.

Is she sensing something is amiss, even though it's not? Am I reading too much in to her questions or is her head spinning a bit? I'm concerned that she would feel insecure in anything I'm doing. The last thing I want is for her to legitimately be worried that I'm up to something. Or is that a good thing given where things have been? Is this part of the process as things change and re-balance in our home?


----------



## dtc37 (Nov 18, 2014)

I really don't want to be an A hole but i believe you are thinking way to much.. STOP being concerned about what she's thinking. It will drive you mad. Learn to generate your own emotions. I feel like you're doing this just to seek a reaction from her.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I've had a couple of interesting exchanges with my wife over the past 2 days, and there's no doubt they are connected to my sudden and obvious change that I started a couple of weeks ago. Here's what I'm referring to...
> 
> I've been working out a lot; running and riding my mountain bike almost daily. Yesterday I ran in the morning, then in the evening I went for a bike ride. When I was changing clothes for my evening ride, my wife asks where I'm going. I told her I was taking a bike ride and "needed to get a good sweat going and burn some calories". She said "2 workouts in 1 day?" She had a questioning look on her face, but I just said, "yes, I need to drop 20lbs and I need to drop it quick". She didn't respond and I left for my ride.
> 
> ...


This is perfect. Just ignore her and keep doing what you're doing. If she's insecure, that says a lot more about how she KNOWS she's treating you than it does about anything you're doing.


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

dtc37 said:


> I really don't want to be an A hole but i believe you are thinking way to much.. STOP being concerned about what she's thinking. It will drive you mad. Learn to generate your own emotions. I feel like you're doing this just to seek a reaction from her.


I'm concerned about her being insecure, yet I'm doing it to get a reaction. That's real logical. :scratchhead:  Yep, you're being an A hole but at least you knew it coming in.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

The key is if you want to wear cologne, you wear cologne, regardless of whether you think she will react or not.

The problem is at first everything you do will cause a reaction because it is new.

After a bit, you will start to have a clearer path.

Obviously, my situation is f-cked, so I may not be the best judge, but I think you're off to a good start.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I do remember the covert contracts portion and in the past I was really bad about that. But this trip we took wasn't that. We've done these trips before and they are usually sexcapades. To expect that was simply based on past trips.
> 
> I actually read the book again and I got on their forum as well. There are no groups that meet in my area.
> 
> With all that said, I'm now reading His Needs Her Needs. I know it's completely opposite of NMMNG, but a woman suggested it and I'm not opposed to a woman's perspective. In that book, the therapist says that a date night between a husband and wife should meet the top 2 needs of both parties. For a woman, affection and intimate conversation should be experienced. For a man, sexual fulfillment and companionship should be experienced. If both people can have their top 2 needs met, that's the perfect date. In terms of the night away 2 weeks ago, she definitely had her needs met. I on the other hand went to bed with a hard on and a set of blue balls. NOT THE PERFECT DATE, according to His Needs Her Needs.


While it may have been a book suggested by a woman here on TAM, the book is written by a man whose life work is helping men recover their marriages. So the input from the book is from a man, not a woman.

The book does not tell you what the top needs are for your wife. It gives suggestions of what they might be. But you and your wife need to identify each of your top needs and how each of feel that they should be met.

If she will not read the book and do the work, you can still lead by talking to her, asking her questions and listening to her.

Have you even had a talk with your wife about that weekend?


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I've had a couple of interesting exchanges with my wife over the past 2 days, and there's no doubt they are connected to my sudden and obvious change that I started a couple of weeks ago. Here's what I'm referring to...
> 
> I've been working out a lot; running and riding my mountain bike almost daily. Yesterday I ran in the morning, then in the evening I went for a bike ride. When I was changing clothes for my evening ride, my wife asks where I'm going. I told her I was taking a bike ride and "needed to get a good sweat going and burn some calories". She said "2 workouts in 1 day?" She had a questioning look on her face, but I just said, "yes, I need to drop 20lbs and I need to drop it quick". She didn't respond and I left for my ride.
> 
> ...


This is good. You are not doing anything wrong.. actually good things. She's getting curious and paying attention to you . That's all good.


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Anon1111 said:


> The key is if you want to wear cologne, you wear cologne, regardless of whether you think she will react or not.
> 
> The problem is at first everything you do will cause a reaction because it is new.
> 
> ...


That's the crazy part. I wear cologne all the time, but not usually to work. Coaching PE and basketball is not a cologne type job. Lol


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> Have you even had a talk with your wife about that weekend?


We talked about it on the way home. Didn't acomplish anything. She always reminds me that sex usually isn't on her mind.


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## dtc37 (Nov 18, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I'm concerned about her being insecure, yet I'm doing it to get a reaction. That's real logical. :scratchhead:  Yep, you're being an A hole but at least you knew it coming in.



Lol I didn't say you being concerned about he being insecure is seeking reaction. But all of these "changes" you are making are for her are they not?? Let me make it easier to understand be as if nothing she does or doesn't do affects you. Her little questions and remarks shouldn't be a cue to take action on something. If you want to do something.. Just F ing do it. Be narcissistic for a while. Know where you are going in life and if she wants to join then let her if not. Tell her to get out of your way. Be a masculine force of energy.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

She's noticing you, you answered her questions honestly, carry on. 

Best,


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

dtc37 said:


> Lol I didn't say you being concerned about he being insecure is seeking reaction. *But all of these "changes" you are making are for her are they not*?? Let me make it easier to understand be as if nothing she does or doesn't do affects you. Her little questions and remarks shouldn't be a cue to take action on something. If you want to do something.. Just F ing do it. Be narcissistic for a while. Know where you are going in life and if she wants to join then let her if not. Tell her to get out of your way. Be a masculine force of energy.


None of the changes I'm making are for her. It's quite the opposite. Maybe you were reading posts very early in this thread and seeing that I've been jumping through hoops for several years. That came to an abrupt end about 2 weeks ago. I know, I know, 2 weeks is not a track record to stand on, but I had to start somewhere. The past 2 weeks have been so radically different than any other time in our marriage, which is why I asked about her odd questioning of my workouts yesterday and the way I dressed for work today. I can sense that she's wondering WTH is going on, but she hasn't asked.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Tonight she spent the entire night in our room. She never does that. We always sit together on the loveseat in our living room. When she was going to bed, she said "I'm going to bed. I hope you enjoyed the peace and quiet tonight". My reply, "I did actually. It was very relaxing". She's definitely acting weird.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

IDK, I guess you're going the 180 route combined with the NMMNG guidance(?). I finally started reading the PDF of NMMNG - the first 2 chapters - and haven't read further since it didn't apply to me. I'll probably continue on with it so that I get a better context for these matters moving forward.

I'm going to circle back to this idea that I mentioned earlier (in other threads I believe) where people get too hung up on gamesmanship. Maybe some people get jazzed to play the relationship game by navigating power struggle games with a SO/spouse. Neither my wife nor I play those games. We both loathe the games. It is my belief that if you are married to a game player, you can get them to give up the games. IMHO, you are playing games still. Don't beat around the bush and just admit it. You WANT to put the fear into your wife's mind that you MIGHT be cheating or looking to cheat. LOL, for all we know she may be starting a thread on CWI as we speak and the same players here who are getting you all geeked to run a MAP or whatever plan you are working over here would ALSO be over on CWI helping your wife bust your "cheating" ass. That's the nature of TAM - at least for some people. 

If I were you, I would redo the conversation about what you believe the current state of the marriage to be and what you expect the future state of the marriage to look like. After explaining to her your expectations on the future, you tell her candidly that she can either work with you to make the marriage better or to continue to sit on the sidelines while you start doing more of your own thing. You need to explain to her that while you love her deeply, you are losing those feelings you have for her as a wife the longer this stale existence continues on. At some point, if things don't get better, you are going to cut the cord and live the rest of your life on your terms. No threats, no begging, pleading or cajoling. Just the facts with honesty and respect. Despite how you feel your wife treated you these past years, she doesn't deserve to be toyed with.

If I misread your posts, I apologize. However, it comes across to me like you are still on the opposite side of the same coin. You're making changes and then peeking over to see if she noticed, or is she changing now?


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## dtc37 (Nov 18, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Tonight she spent the entire night in our room. She never does that. We always sit together on the loveseat in our living room. When she was going to bed, she said "I'm going to bed. I hope you enjoyed the peace and quiet tonight". My reply, "I did actually. It was very relaxing". She's definitely acting weird.



Just in that quote I noticed you are still studying her. I know it's hard to do but focus on YOU. what did you accomplish tonight? How were you feeling? Did you do something you enjoyed ??. masculine energy. It's your reality and she can come along for the ride.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> IDK, I guess you're going the 180 route combined with the NMMNG guidance(?). I finally started reading the PDF of NMMNG - the first 2 chapters - and haven't read further since it didn't apply to me. I'll probably continue on with it so that I get a better context for these matters moving forward.
> 
> I'm going to circle back to this idea that I mentioned earlier (in other threads I believe) where people get too hung up on gamesmanship. Maybe some people get jazzed to play the relationship game by navigating power struggle games with a SO/spouse. Neither my wife nor I play those games. We both loathe the games. It is my belief that if you are married to a game player, you can get them to give up the games. IMHO, you are playing games still. Don't beat around the bush and just admit it. You WANT to put the fear into your wife's mind that you MIGHT be cheating or looking to cheat. LOL, for all we know she may be starting a thread on CWI as we speak and the same players here who are getting you all geeked to run a MAP or whatever plan you are working over here would ALSO be over on CWI helping your wife bust your "cheating" ass. That's the nature of TAM - at least for some people.
> 
> ...


From the word go, NMMNG was hitting me where I live. Toxic shame, covert contracts, keeping secrets, not being myself due to my religious upbringing, etc... I've lived secret lives since I was 12 years old simply because of pressure put on me as a child by my dad, who was and still is a pastor of a church. 

I'm not sure I'm playing "a game". I'm trying to break habits that are counterproductive. My wife may be playing a game to see what's going on with me. If she wants to catch me cheating, good luck. Never have... 

I've considered your approach just in the last couple of days. I even have a list of expectations that I'm considering sharing with her and letting her know that the status quo simply isn't going to work any more. But I will take it one step further than your suggestion. I won't allow her to sit on the sideline while I go on with life. I will tell her that if she isn't willing to join me, that I will end our marriage. To me, playing the "you can join me if you'd like" card is a game in itself. I don't have time for that. Its like the scene in Oceans 11 when Danny meets Linus and says "you're either in or you're out, right now".

I'm not sure yet if I'll go that route. In the meantime, I have plenty to fix with myself, regardless of what I try to fix with my marriage.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

dtc37 said:


> LuvIsTuff said:
> 
> 
> > Tonight she spent the entire night in our room. She never does that. We always sit together on the loveseat in our living room. When she was going to bed, she said "I'm going to bed. I hope you enjoyed the peace and quiet tonight". My reply, "I did actually. It was very relaxing". She's definitely acting weird.
> ...


If by noticing that she spent the entire night in our room, then ok, I studied her. But her pulling that on me didn't keep me from doing what I wanted to do. If I acompished anything, it would be that once more, I didn't appear needy. In the past, I would have gone to her and asked "why are you in the room" " come in here and sit with me". She even recognized that I didn't do that. For me, that matters. My neediness was a problem prior to the 180 concept. I probably even teetered on smothering her at times. No more...


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Getting rid of smothering is good...

So is being direct..

Good progress


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I'm going to circle back to this idea that I mentioned earlier (in other threads I believe) where people get too hung up on gamesmanship. Maybe some people get jazzed to play the relationship game by navigating power struggle games with a SO/spouse. Neither my wife nor I play those games. We both loathe the games.


If your wife doesn't require games, then you are absolutely pursuing the correct strategy in your marriage. But it's probably not the correct strategy for LIT's marriage.

LIT has behaved as a "nice guy" during his entire marriage. His wife expects that. Simply coming to her one day and declaring that he will no longer be a nice guy, and laying down an ultimatum will ring hollow to her. She will almost certainly force his hand.

And, frankly, you don't stop being a nice guy in a matter of weeks. It takes months, if not years. Once he has completely reformed, then he can go to his wife with an ultimatum and she will believe him.

Until that day, LIT needs to do two things. He needs to work on improving himself and ridding himself of his nice guy tendencies. And he needs to mimic the behaviors that most women are attracted to until they are more natural to him. In other words, he needs to game his wife.


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## AlphaMale74 (Oct 15, 2014)

Popular speaker, Lucile Johnson, gave wives a wise bit of advice on this subject: “If you want to be the only game in town, you better be game.”


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

BronzeTorpedo said:


> Until that day, LIT needs to do two things. He needs to work on improving himself and ridding himself of his nice guy tendencies. And he needs to mimic the behaviors that most women are attracted to until they are more natural to him. In other words, he needs to game his wife.


I've been applying these new ways of living not only at home, but at work. I've noticed 2 women who seem to be trying to get my attention in the past week or so. It's palpable.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> IDK, I guess you're going the 180 route combined with the NMMNG guidance(?). I finally started reading the PDF of NMMNG - the first 2 chapters - and haven't read further since it didn't apply to me. I'll probably continue on with it so that I get a better context for these matters moving forward.
> 
> I'm going to circle back to this idea that I mentioned earlier (in other threads I believe) where people get too hung up on gamesmanship. Maybe some people get jazzed to play the relationship game by navigating power struggle games with a SO/spouse. Neither my wife nor I play those games. We both loathe the games. It is my belief that if you are married to a game player, you can get them to give up the games. IMHO, you are playing games still. Don't beat around the bush and just admit it. You WANT to put the fear into your wife's mind that you MIGHT be cheating or looking to cheat. LOL, for all we know she may be starting a thread on CWI as we speak and the same players here who are getting you all geeked to run a MAP or whatever plan you are working over here would ALSO be over on CWI helping your wife bust your "cheating" ass. That's the nature of TAM - at least for some people.
> 
> ...


I'm with you. If I had to "game" my wife into noticing me, I wouldn't be interested in her attention. My wife doesn't play games either. We are very fortunate people. 

LIT has already tried talking to his wife. She responded with "that's a lot to process". Then she did nothing. Given that LIT isn't married to one of our wives, he doesn't have much choice other than to do what he's doing. Divorcing her immediately seems a bit much right now.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> I'm with you. If I had to "game" my wife into noticing me, I wouldn't be interested in her attention. My wife doesn't play games either. We are very fortunate people.
> 
> LIT has already tried talking to his wife. She responded with "that's a lot to process". Then she did nothing. Given that LIT isn't married to one of our wives, he doesn't have much choice other than to do what he's doing. Divorcing her immediately seems a bit much right now.


LIT's version of communication included a lot of mea culpas too. What I meant be redo the talk one last time would be much more direct, much more up front and to give notice that the marriage is over if things don't change. That's without the actual context of their daily interactions. I agree that this does not work if LIT has drawn a number of lines in the sand that are crossed and then redrawn. Then yes, she may not take him seriously if he constantly readjusted despite his protestations.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> I'm with you. If I had to "game" my wife into noticing me, I wouldn't be interested in her attention. My wife doesn't play games either. We are very fortunate people.
> 
> LIT has already tried talking to his wife. She responded with "that's a lot to process". Then she did nothing. Given that LIT isn't married to one of our wives, he doesn't have much choice other than to do what he's doing. Divorcing her immediately seems a bit much right now.


I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm not so sure divorcing her immediately is actually "a bit much right now".

1. She cheated on me. She begged me not to leave her. I didn't. She didn't change. She just stayed.
2. She doesn't want to do her part to meet my sexual needs, but she thinks I'm committing a form of adultery if I "please" myself.
3. She continually comes up with "reasons" why she's not interested in sex. The most recent was her saying she was still bitter about me going to a strip club before we were even engaged. B.S. She then had the gall to say "it's going to take time for me to get over this". :scratchhead:
4. She played me like a drum on our recent getaway weekend, and even joked about giving me blue balls after I had put together that most romantic evening of her entire life.
5. She recently told me that she met with a close female friend of hers and told this friend that *"I love my kids and pay more attention to them than I do my husband"*. Yeah, I haven't shared that one yet.....  When she told me that, she said "I know it's wrong, and I went to my friend for advice because I don't want to feel that way". Well, that doesn't change the fact that you DO feel that way.

So, yeah, divorce wouldn't be "a bit much right now".

My son graduates high school in 2 months. I have to keep things peaceful for him. When the summer comes around, she's gonna have some decisions to make and it'll be her turn to jump through the hoops(assuming she's willing, which she probably isn't). In the meantime, I'm doing a 180 and when the time comes for me to find someone that actually gives a sh!t about me, I'll be a much better man.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> LIT's version of communication included a lot of mea culpas too. What I meant be redo the talk one last time would be much more direct, much more up front and to give notice that the marriage is over if things don't change. That's without the actual context of their daily interactions. I agree that this does not work if LIT has drawn a number of lines in the sand that are crossed and then redrawn. Then yes, she may not take him seriously if he constantly readjusted despite his protestations.


I've never drawn any lines in the sand. I've been honest about how certain things make me feel and I've said many times what I need. I've absolutely tried to do everything she has ever asked of me, and become a much different person in the process. And I don't mean that I became a "nice guy" because of her. I did learn to enjoy being affectionate, doing romantic things for her, and being more sensitive to her needs. I think those are good changes that will serve me well in the future. But I've never said "this is what I expect, and if you can't meet me here, we're done".


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I've never drawn any lines in the sand. I've been honest about how certain things make me feel and I've said many times what I need. I've absolutely tried to do everything she has ever asked of me, and become a much different person in the process. And I don't mean that I became a "nice guy" because of her. I did learn to enjoy being affectionate, doing romantic things for her, and being more sensitive to her needs. I think those are good changes that will serve me well in the future. But I've never said "this is what I expect, and if you can't meet me here, we're done".


That's good if you haven't been caught in the situation of redrawing boundaries. In a strong marriage, you really don't need to "threaten" because both spouses want to treat each other well out of love and respect. But in a dire situation like yours, drastic times call for drastic measures. 

Keep in mind, what you are doing is essentially a 180. Traditionally, it's supposed to be a way for you to detach from your spouse. A side effect of doing this can result in your spouse trying to chase you - like the pursuer/chaser dynamic. But that's a side effect and not the primary effect. More likely, the 180 will inevitably lead to both of you detaching. 

Think about it, but the last couple of posts by you makes it sound like your wife is suspecting you of having an affair. I get the MMSLP strategy is similar in that your goal is to get your wife to recognize that you are desirable to other women. But letting her think you might be stepping out on her is a bridge too far IMHO. To me, that looks like part of a game. In the long run, I don't see that helping you.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> That's good if you haven't been caught in the situation of redrawing boundaries. In a strong marriage, you really don't need to "threaten" because both spouses want to treat each other well out of love and respect. But in a dire situation like yours, drastic times call for drastic measures.
> 
> Keep in mind, what you are doing is essentially a 180. Traditionally, it's supposed to be a way for you to detach from your spouse. A side effect of doing this can result in your spouse trying to chase you - like the pursuer/chaser dynamic. But that's a side effect and not the primary effect. More likely, the 180 will inevitably lead to both of you detaching.
> 
> Think about it, but the last couple of posts by you makes it sound like your wife is suspecting you of having an affair. I get the MMSLP strategy is similar in that your goal is to get your wife to recognize that you are desirable to other women. But letting her think you might be stepping out on her is a bridge too far IMHO. To me, that looks like part of a game. In the long run, I don't see that helping you.


So how do I keep my wife from thinking there's something fishy going on? If she's insecure, it's probably because she knows deep down that she's a lousy wife from an intimacy standpoint. If I refused to meet her needs and work to keep her happy, I'd probably have a right to be concerned that she would go elsewhere. If you ask me, let her squirm. That wasn't the goal, but I don't see her doing anything to make sure I come home every day.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> If you ask me, let her squirm.


Builds character.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> So how do I keep my wife from thinking there's something fishy going on? If she's insecure, it's probably because she knows deep down that she's a lousy wife from an intimacy standpoint. If I refused to meet her needs and work to keep her happy, I'd probably have a right to be concerned that she would go elsewhere. If you ask me, let her squirm. That wasn't the goal, but I don't see her doing anything to make sure I come home every day.


If you think that will work, then fine. Just keep in mind that what you are doing is ultimately a 180 that is meant to detach. If you continue on this path, don't assume your wife will respond to you.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Builds character.


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## Voltaire2013 (Sep 22, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> If you think that will work, then fine. Just keep in mind that what you are doing is ultimately a 180 that is meant to detach. If you continue on this path, don't assume your wife will respond to you.


Not to belabor the point LIT but you fix you for you. If she benefits, it's secondary to your cause. I still think you put on her a pedestal and your comments about others at work speaks volumes about you. We both have a lot of work to do as my empathy with you is strong. Work on you, and let's the chips fall as they may with her. If she can't love a strong you, mores the pity but you're still the more complete person. I hate to speak in cliches but the whole 'forest for the trees' comes to mind. 

Let's make a wholly content man, and work from there. I'm trying too. 

I wish you well,
V(13)


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> If you think that will work, then fine. Just keep in mind that what you are doing is ultimately a 180 that is meant to detach. If you continue on this path, don't assume your wife will respond to you.


Wouldn't it be another "covert contract" if he was doing it to get a reaction?


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Wouldn't it be another "covert contract" if he was doing it to get a reaction?


A reaction? IDK about that. His ultimate goal is positive interaction. Right now, he's gaming her to get a reaction. I don't see where the quid pro quo comes into play with this.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> bandit.45 said:
> 
> 
> > Wouldn't it be another "covert contract" if he was doing it to get a reaction?
> ...


How am I gaming her? Please tell me.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> How am I gaming her? Please tell me.


Already stated in previous posts.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Just to the goddamned 180 and quit worrying about it!

Sheezus H....

Make yourself into a better man. Live for yourself. Do the things you want to do. Bike, run, swim, snorkel, play your music....quit waiting for her. 
And quit being so damn defensive damn it!


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Bandit's on a roll. He used the "d" word three times in his last post... 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Wow! My wife is in full on b!tch mode tonight. I text her tonight on my way to a restaurant and told her to meet me and my daughter for dinner. She hadn't left work yet, which I wasn't aware of. I thought she was almost home because it was around the time She usually gets home. She replies to my text with "Thanks for letting me know. You can eat without me since you didn't think of me anyway". I told her that I didn't expect her to still be at work and offered to get something for her to go and take it home. Her reply: "You should have mentioned it earlier and I may have made it. You did not consider me before you went there so you can enjoy it without me. I'm pissed. Inconsiderate." She's been pouting all night and avoiding me. Sort of like last night, only with a nasty attitude. It's actually a bit humorous. My son and I are watching recordings of Impracticle Jokers and laughing out a$$es off, enjoying ourselves while she pitches a 4 hour temper tantrum.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Interesting.

Might have worked better to say "Hey Babe, I've taken my daughter to dinner, so I will see you when we get home. Hit me up if you would like something from here brought home "

Its more detached but still friendly. And it doesnt appear as last minute appeasement.

I'm glad you were able to remain detached during your wifes childish temper tantrum. This is good. If she goes too far, you may have to tell her "that is not ok, choose better."


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Might have worked better to say "Hey Babe, I've taken my daughter to dinner, so I will see you when we get home. Hit me up if you would like something from here brought home "
> 
> ...


Honestly, if my spouse pulled that stunt without us planning it first then I'd be irritated. I wouldn't throw a 4 hour temper tantrum over it either though. To her defense, LIT did impulsively decide to go out to dinner with his daughter and his wife was an afterthought, I think he knew how she would react if she couldn't meet them and I think he enjoys seeing her reactions to his sudden changes given that he knows her well enough to push the right buttons.

If he wants to be more assertive, in the morning, he could have told the wife "I want to go out to dinner tonight at _________". I'd love for all of us to go out as a family, but if you don't want to or can't make it then I'll have dinner with my daughter. He asserts himself plus gives his wife fair warning to comply with his plan.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Blossom Leigh said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting.
> ...


Last minute, spontaneous dinners like this are very normal for us. We do it all the time. Usually she's the one to call on her way home and tell me to meet her somewhere. The restaurant I picked last night is her favorite restaurant and it's at the exit she takes off of the interstate on her way home. It was convenient for her and we got their at almost exactly the time She would normally be arriving at her exit. 

What screwed things up is that when I text her to tell her to meet us there, she still hadn't left work and we were almost to the restaraunt. Had she text me and told me she was running late, everything would have been fine and would have just waited a few more minutes before leaving the house. So to try to pin me down ain't gonna cut it, folks. It was really a simple miscommunication that didn't warrant her childish response.

And, 1 more nugget... She plans diinners and I usually cook dinner. She didn't plan anything and nothing had been thawed out to cook. She expected to eat out last night.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Last minute, spontaneous dinners like this are very normal for us. We do it all the time. Usually she's the one to call on her way home and tell me to meet her somewhere. The restaurant I picked last night is her favorite restaurant and it's at the exit she takes off of the interstate on her way home. It was convenient for her and we got their at almost exactly the time She would normally be arriving at her exit.
> 
> What screwed things up is that when I text her to tell her to meet us there, she still hadn't left work and we were almost to the restaraunt. Had she text me and told me she was running late, everything would have been fine and would have just waited a few more minutes before leaving the house. So to try to pin me down ain't gonna cut it, folks. It was really a simple miscommunication that didn't warrant her childish response.
> 
> And, 1 more nugget... She plans diinners and I usually cook dinner. She didn't plan anything and nothing had been thawed out to cook. She expected to eat out last night.


Gotcha, then, yea. . She is butt hurt from the changes lately and is beginning to lash out. Keep your flak jacket on. Theres more coming for sure.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Honestly, if my spouse pulled that stunt without us planning it first then I'd be irritated. I wouldn't throw a 4 hour temper tantrum over it either though. To her defense, LIT did impulsively decide to go out to dinner with his daughter and his wife was an afterthought, I think he knew how she would react if she couldn't meet them and I think he enjoys seeing her reactions to his sudden changes given that he knows her well enough to push the right buttons.
> 
> If he wants to be more assertive, in the morning, he could have told the wife "I want to go out to dinner tonight at _________". I'd love for all of us to go out as a family, but if you don't want to or can't make it then I'll have dinner with my daughter. He asserts himself plus gives his wife fair warning to comply with his plan.


We have a bit more freedom in our house than that. If I or my H make in independent spontaneous choice that isnt violating the marriage vows it doesn't bring out the wrath.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Blossom Leigh said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting.
> ...


People have made a point to let me know that there's no "one size fits all" on several occasions. So I'll tell you the same. Maybe that's how things work at your house. Spontaneity is very normal here, especially when it comes to eating dinner.

I have to give my wife a ride to work today. Should be a fun time.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> People have made a point to let me know that there's no "one size fits all" on several occasions. So I'll tell you the same. Maybe that's how things work at your house. Spontaneity is very normal here, especially when it comes to eating dinner.
> 
> I have to give my wife a ride to work today. Should be a fun time.


My "at my house" comment was directed at Plan, not you Luv.

Your defensiveness is very sensitive. Hair trgger. That has got to be miserable.

ETA: And if I were with you, it would be a libido killer.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

LIT-- probably obvious, but just don't engage with her when she starts acting like this. Say, "We can talk about this when you calm down" and walk away.

On a side note, I think it is helpful if you can grow comfortable about the idea of ultimately moving on without her. When you can make decisions that are good for you and you are mostly indifferent about whether they will repel or attract her, you will feel in control.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

LIT I apologize if my last post offended you. 

I'm just trying to keep you focused on the most important person here: you.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Blossom Leigh said:


> My "at my house" comment was directed at Plan, not you Luv.
> 
> Your defensiveness is very sensitive. Hair trgger. That has got to be miserable.
> 
> ETA: And if I were with you, it would be a libido killer.


Yeah he's touchy, but given what she has put him through can't say I blame him. 

LIT, get into some counseling for yourself if you are not already. You need a real person to vent to, not just us pixel-people.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I agree. I think he needs ACOA, specifically.


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## Shake_It_Up (Apr 1, 2015)

Blossom Leigh said:


> I agree. I think he needs ACOA, specifically.


I'm new here and not familiar with all the abbreviations. It seems to be a language all it own on this site. LOL What's "ACOA"?


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Shake_It_Up said:


> I'm new here and not familiar with all the abbreviations. It seems to be a language all it own on this site. LOL What's "ACOA"?


One of the twelve step programs.

Adult Children of Alcoholics

It also addresses families with dysfunction and codependency issues even if addictive substances aren't present.


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## dtc37 (Nov 18, 2014)

LIT, what is your main goal?? Do you want to stay in your energy depleting relationship?? Or Leave it?? Do you want her to be attracted to you again?? Or do you not care anymore?? Do you want to just get laid or do you want to love your wife??


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

LUVISTUF

Is currently banned. 


QUOTE=MarriedGuy221;12273378]Those are great questions, but in his shoes my response would be "who knows?". And I think that is a valid response. I think OP should keep the focus on his own actions, thoughts, schedule, feelings, activities, interactions with kids, behavior at work, etc. IMHO it is too much to try to decide what w wants out of THIS relationship until the newer, better OP really takes hold.

There is no way OP can trust his "wants" right now - and I suspect he understands this. He would have to go through the "what ifs" which is counterproductive to his 180 course of actions. By this I mean he wants her to respond ONLY if she des a, b, c and demonstrates x, y and z otherwise he isn't interested.

So I say work on self and self / other appropriate interaction (versus reaction) FIRST and let the chips fall where they may. When the dust settles it will be obvious if there is something good to work toward

Full disclosure - going through mini-codependency realignment now in my marriage so I can relate to the difficulty in untangling feelings and actions and even identifying personal feelings from entangled feeling / reaction globs of emotion, reaction, response mess..

Keep moving forward and you seem to be doing well from my perspective.[/QUOTE]


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Blossom Leigh said:


> We have a bit more freedom in our house than that. If I or my H make in independent spontaneous choice that isnt violating the marriage vows it doesn't bring out the wrath.


I'm not saying that everything in our marriage is scripted. We have 3 kids and all have activities, so meal times especially have to be planned out. In our case being spontaneous and expecting one to drop what is going on to run to a restaurant for dinner does not work. While I understand that what works for one family doesn't work for another, I was simply pointing out that I could understand why his wife may be irritated by pulling a stunt like that. Considering that she routinely creates plans on the spot too, then it's their MO for the marriage and my initial thoughts for that specific issue were wrong.


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## Vulcan2013 (Sep 25, 2013)

Hope you're doing ok.


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## Laila8 (Apr 24, 2013)

LuvIsTuff has posted in another thread that his wife cheated on him 7 years into the marriage. She begged for another chance, and this is her best effort? Sorry, I don't think she is LD. I think she just is not into her husband, she doesn't respect him, and no amount of LIT twisting himself into a pretzel is going to do anything. He sounds like a great husband. She is the one who needs to change, not him. She should be thanking her lucky stars that she was given another chance. It's clear she is comfortable in her life and she is getting her needs met, so she feels no need to change anything. I think a healthy dose of the red pill is in order here. I would love for LIT to post his story on a Manosphere site and see what advice he gets there. I think he has been far too nice and far too patient and accommodating. He is a fit 42 year old man who seemingly is kind, nice, and knows how to treat a lady. Plenty of women would find him desirable. It's a shame his wife doesn't seem to care enough to treat him with respect.


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## Laila8 (Apr 24, 2013)

Lila said:


> Could you explain why you would recommend Red Pill mantra to LIT? You do understand all that Red Pill stuff is about manipulating a woman right?


No, the Red Pill stuff is not necessarily about manipulating women. That is Game/PUA stuff. Red pill stuff teaches men to be the alpha in the relationship, to not put any woman on a pedestal to the point of accepting her bad treatment, to work on yourself, and to have a backbone. I think his wife is very comfortable. She might not realize what she has until she's lost it.


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## icemans.insights (May 5, 2015)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Even those 1 or 2 times per month are pretty dull because she mostly does it for me, but isn't all that interested. There's no passion. There's no excitement. It's pretty much a quickie every time.


I'm coming in a bit late to this discussion but I've been married about the same time as you and it's very similar from reading your thread. I'm the romantic with the passion and the desire, and she's largely along for the ride. She participates willingly, and we have sex 1-2 times weekly, but I think it's largely for my benefit as she could go for weeks / months without it if I wasn't in the picture. 

My ex on the other hand was like me. Always hungry. Always thinking about ripping my clothes off, and me hers. But she was also hard to get along with on a day-to-day basis. 

Given a choice, I'd have sex with my wife more often frankly, but I've resigned myself to the fact that she just isn't that type of woman who has a deep interest in things sexual, and I don't want someone who just performs for my needs. 

Besides, I typically feel like she could just as easily be watching TV, talking on the phone, or conversing with a friend and find those more enjoyable than us sharing an amazing sexual rendezvous together. 

Sadly, you just end up having to take the good with the bad by the time you hit the 20 year mark. And you're left with a bunch of choices that aren't to your liking. Leave the status quo intact, leave the relationship and hope to find someone more sexually compatible (which carries it's own set of risks), or try to fix your broken marriage in the sex department, which you've clearly attempted to do already.


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