# If you found out your spouse cheated on you before marriage...



## Laila8

...while he or she was dating you, would it bother you?

The story is: my DH and I were exclusively dating at the time, we were in love, things were going pretty well, but I was not sleeping with him. He and I had sex 5 months into the relationship, but then after a few months I decided I wanted to save that for marriage. He was seemingly fine with it as he had never even slept with anyone before me. I was his first, he was my second. He was 30 at the time, and I was 26. DH was one of those guys who was a late bloomer.

Anyway, it turns out that DH and this woman whom he always had a crush on but she was never interested in dating him got in touch somehow (while he and I were exclusively dating), and because he'd always been curious about her and had always been hot for her, they met up for dinner and slept together once. It was a one time thing, and they never contacted each other again as far as I know. I assume she didn't want to see him again, but I do not know for sure. He proposed to me two months after their date. We're happily married now for 4.5 years with two kids.

I didn't find out about this little fling until after we were married. Am I right to be upset about this, or since it was before we were married should I just forget about it? DH has been a loyal husband and has never even remotely come close to cheating on me since we got married. He is a loving, attentive husband and father, we have a great sex life, he tells me I'm beautiful all the time, etc. He is an open book, I have no worries about his faithfulness. 

But in the back of my mind, I sometimes feel like he really liked her more than me, but since she wasn't available he settled for me. Or that she was hotter than me, she was the one who got away, the one he always lusted after. UGH! It's really killing my self-esteem every time I picture them.  I have seen her picture and she is definitely hot. She has, let's just say a very large chest, whereas I have an average bust at best. DH is definitely a breast man, which makes me feel even more sad/insecure about the whole thing. I know he loves me, but I just can't get over the fact that he saw her and slept with her when we were dating. I want to be the woman that he is so hot for like that, although he claims I am.

Thank you for any advice.


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## aug

Laila619 said:


> ...while he or she was dating you, would it bother you?
> 
> The story is: my DH and I were exclusively dating at the time, we were in love, things were going pretty well, but I was not sleeping with him. He and I had sex 5 months into the relationship, but then after a few months I decided I wanted to save that for marriage. He was seemingly fine with it as he had never even slept with anyone before me. I was his first, he was my second. He was 30 at the time, and I was 26. DH was one of those guys who was a late bloomer.
> 
> Anyway, it turns out that DH and this woman whom he always had a crush on but she was never interested in dating him got in touch somehow (while he and I were exclusively dating), and because he'd always been curious about her and had always been hot for her, they met up for dinner and slept together once. It was a one time thing, and they never contacted each other again as far as I know. I assume she didn't want to see him again, but I do not know for sure. He proposed to me two months after their date. We're happily married now for 4.5 years with two kids.
> 
> I didn't find out about this little fling until after we were married. * Am I right to be upset about this, or since it was before we were married should I just forget about it?* DH has been a loyal husband and has never even remotely come close to cheating on me since we got married. He is a loving, attentive husband and father, we have a great sex life, he tells me I'm beautiful all the time, etc. He is an open book, I have no worries about his faithfulness.
> 
> But in the back of my mind, I sometimes feel like he really liked her more than me, but since she wasn't available he settled for me. Or that she was hotter than me, she was the one who got away, the one he always lusted after. UGH! It's really killing my self-esteem every time I picture them.  I have seen her picture and she is definitely hot. She has, let's just say a very large chest, whereas I have an average bust at best. DH is definitely a breast man, which makes me feel even more sad/insecure about the whole thing. I know he loves me, but I just can't get over the fact that he saw her and slept with her when we were dating. I want to be the woman that he is so hot for like that, although he claims I am.
> 
> Thank you for any advice.



How did you find out?

Yes, you should be concerned about this, especially since you both were supposed to be exclusive. If you had known, when you were dating, would you had continued the relationship?


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## Laila8

aug,

The way I found out was I was going through an old cell phone of his and text messages planning their meet up were still in there. I asked him about it and he told me all the gory details. DH said he knows it was wrong, he feels guilty about it, it was a horrible, dumb mistake, etc. But then he tried to tell me he wasn't sure I liked him anymore after I stopped sleeping with him when we were dating. I told him that was no excuse.

She is very busty and really hot, and there's no way I could have competed with that. I see how it was tempting, especially when I stopped sleeping with him.


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## Acoa

The pain of betrayal starts at discovery for the BS. 

The WS may have had years to compartmentalize the guilt (or lack thereof). 

That creates a big disconnect that is hard to bridge.


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## Blue Firefly

> He proposed to me two months after their date. We're happily married now for 4.5 years with two kids.


Drop it.

You were not engaged (exclusively dating is not engaged).
It was a one time thing.
You were not sexually intimate at the time.

You were the first woman he had ever had sex with (at 30, no less), and it was outside of marriage. Had he still had been a virgin, he probably could have resisted the temptation (he had resisted it for 30 years). But, because of you, he had crossed that boundary. So he wasn't able to resist the temptation of sex before marriage...this one time.

Married almost 5 years, two children, and I assume no concerns otherwise? 

If this is the worst thing you ever have to worry about, then count yourself lucky. Just forget it; don't punish him for it; don't ever mention it again; just forget it and get on with having a long and happy life/marriage.


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## Laila8

Blue Firefly said:


> Drop it.
> 
> You were not engaged (exclusively dating is not engaged).
> It was a one time thing.
> You were not sexually intimate at the time.
> 
> You were the first woman he had ever had sex with (at 30, no less), and it was outside of marriage. Had he still had been a virgin, he probably could have resisted the temptation (he had resisted it for 30 years). But, because of you, he had crossed that boundary. So he wasn't able to resist the temptation of sex before marriage...this one time.
> 
> Married almost 5 years, two children, and I assume no concerns otherwise?
> 
> If this is the worst thing you ever have to worry about, then count yourself lucky. Just forget it; don't punish him for it; don't ever mention it again; just forget it and get on with having a long and happy life/marriage.


I do appreciate your advice, thanks. I think he should have been able to 'resist the temptation' when we were dating though--he's the one who asked me to be exclusive. He was being dishonest and sneaking around. I can't help but think how easily he was tempted by a large pair of boobs. I mean, what happens if some hot big-busted woman hits on him now that we're married? Will he be able to resist the temptation? He wasn't able to before. Maybe he doesn't have as good character as I thought he did.


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## WorkingOnMe

In my mind, if you weren't giving it up then you didn't really have a lock on him. Had he been sleeping with you it would have been different. But the way you describe it, I don't really see your being legitimately exclusive before you had even slept with him. To me, exclusive means you're only having sex with one person. You didn't think you were exclusive, rather you thought you were both celibate. It's not really possible to be exclusive when you're celibate. It's like the difference between 1 and 0.


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## WorkingOnMe

Laila619 said:


> what happens if some hot big-busted woman hits on him now that we're married?


Probably depends on if you're giving it up or not.


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## Hicks

He took her for a test drive, but he bought the sleeker model.


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## Laila8

WorkingOnMe said:


> Probably depends on if you're giving it up or not.


Is it okay for a husband to cheat if the wife isn't having sex? What if there's a medical reason, like during the postpartum period when a woman is healing?


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## frozen

This situation had the potential for creating long term resentment. You will need to find a way to work on this so you don't get stuck on it. It will be harder then many here realize. The injuries to your self esteem, for some, can really cut deep.

Find a sympathetic counselor


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## ironman

Laila619 said:


> But in the back of my mind, I sometimes feel like he really liked her more than me, but since she wasn't available he settled for me. Or that she was hotter than me, she was the one who got away, the one he always lusted after. UGH! It's really killing my self-esteem every time I picture them.


Get over it. 

By your own description he's a great husband and is not the promiscuous type other than this one time before you were even engaged. Count your blessings ... trust me, things could be FAR worse. You're creating a problem in your own mind where truly there is none.


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## ironman

Laila619 said:


> Is it okay for a husband to cheat if the wife isn't having sex? What if there's a medical reason, like during the postpartum period when a woman is healing?


Cheating is never ok ... but understand that when a woman withholds sex from a man (for w/e the reason) he tends to take it as a sign that she doesn't love him anymore. Men feel the most loved when a woman has sex with him. That's just the way we are wired. Besides, there are other things you can do for him, ahem.


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## SadSamIAm

All of your feelings are real and appropriate. He did cheat. It is not clear how long you had been together when this happened. Sounds like a while. Guessing at least a year. You weren't married, so I think this somewhat lessens the betrayal. 

My only advice is that if you chose to stay in your marriage, don't let it kill it. You will never forget, but you must forgive. 

I cheated on my now wife after we had begun dating. We started dating in early November and I cheated on her at Christmas with an old girlfriend. I told her about it. We fought about it. But it has never gone away. I know she still resents me for it and she will throw it in my face at times. We have been married now for 25 years.

If you are going to let this episode affect your marriage for the rest of time, then end the marriage now.


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## Suspecting

Cheating is cheating, doesn't matter whether you had a ring on your finger or not if you agreed to be exclusive. This shows the character of your husband as you now know he is capable of cheating if things don't go his way. Saying you were "only" dating or not having sex is just an excuse.

There seems to be a heavy gender bias in some of the replies above. Double standard?


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## WorkingOnMe

Laila619 said:


> Is it okay for a husband to cheat if the wife isn't having sex? What if there's a medical reason, like during the postpartum period when a woman is healing?


No it's not ok. But you didn't ask if it was ok, you asked what would happen. Ok or not, if you're not being a wife to him then the odds are worse than if you were giving it up. I know all about the romantic ferry tail of unconditional love but that doesn't always work in real life.


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## Suspecting

WorkingOnMe said:


> No it's not ok. But you didn't ask if it was ok, you asked what would happen. Ok or not, if you're not being a wife to him then the odds are worse than if you were giving it up. I know all about the romantic ferry tail of unconditional love but that doesn't always work in real life.


That didn't make sense at all. You are gender biased. If the genders were reversed you would be yelling to divorce the wife or do DNA and a lie detector test and whatnot.


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## ironman

Suspecting said:


> Cheating is cheating, doesn't matter whether you had a ring on your finger or not if you agreed to be exclusive. This shows the character of your husband as you now know he is capable of cheating if things don't go his way. Saying you were "only" dating or not having sex is just an excuse.
> 
> There seems to be a heavy gender bias in some of the replies above. Double standard?


Welcome to the way of the real world. FYI: It's not always fair or politically correct regardless of what some would like. And hello, I'm a male .. so of course I have a gender bias. I can only provide a man's perspective .. not a woman's.

Anyway, your advice seems a bit harsh for this otherwise model-husband/father(as described by the OP). Besides, if the genders were reversed I don't see how this would change anything.


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## Suspecting

ironman said:


> Welcome to the way of the real world. FYI: It's not always fair or politically correct regardless of what some would like. And hello, I'm a male .. so of course I have a gender bias. I can only provide a man's perspective .. not a woman's.
> 
> Anyway, your advice seems a bit harsh for this otherwise model-husband/father(as described by the OP). Besides, if the genders were reversed I don't see how this would change anything.


Man's perspective does not equal gender bias, double standard, sexist...

I'm a man too but I can easily see her husband cheated. If you reverse the roles you would think the same but you can't since you are biased.


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## WorkingOnMe

I'm not gender biased. If they were dating and the woman wanted to be sexually active and the man was holding out for marriage I would be the first to tell him that it serves him right. In fact I have told men that. Politically incorrect? Yes. Gender biased? No.


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## MattMatt

He shouldn't have. She shouldn't have.

He should have told you. But didn't.

I think maybe counselling might help, here.


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## Suspecting

ironman said:


> Anyway, your advice seems a bit harsh for this otherwise model-husband/father(as described by the OP). Besides, if the genders were reversed I don't see how this would change anything.


I don't think it was harsh just an honest observation. He didn't get sex from the OP so he went and had sex with another woman. What is he going to do if the OP has to decline sex now when they are married? Not necessarily anything but the OP knows now that he is capable of it. Not everyone are capable of cheating.


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## MattMatt

Suspecting said:


> I don't think it was harsh just an honest observation. He didn't get sex from the OP so he went and had sex with another woman. What is he going to do if the OP has to decline sex now when they are married? Not necessarily anything but the OP knows now that he is capable of it. Not everyone are capable of cheating.


Actually, I think almost everyone is capable of cheating.


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## Suspecting

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm not gender biased. If they were dating and the woman wanted to be sexually active and the man was holding out for marriage I would be the first to tell him that it serves him right. In fact I have told men that. Politically incorrect? Yes. Gender biased? No.


Obviously you place a huge importance of having a ring on your finger and/or a piece of paper. Those tell nothing about your character. I know many couples who have been years together, living together, have children, but a re not married or engaged. In practice they are the same as married couples in every way. According to you they are allowed to go and have sex with other people if one of them doesn't feel like having sex at some point?

Edit: correction: according to you the *males *are allowed to go and have sex with other people.


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## Suspecting

MattMatt said:


> Actually, I think *almost *everyone is capable of cheating.


Almost everyone, but not everyone.


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## WorkingOnMe

Suspecting said:


> Obviously you place a huge importance of having a ring on your finger and/or a piece of paper. Those tell nothing about your character. I know many couples who have been years together, living together, have children, but a re not married or engaged. In practice they are the same as married couples in every way. According to you they are allowed to go and have sex with other people if one of them doesn't feel like having sex at some point?


Is that an oxymoron? Or, hmm, what's the correct term? A paradox? I'm not sure. Anyway, if they aren't having sex then they aren't the same as a married couple in every way now are they?


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## Racer

Suspecting said:


> Cheating is cheating, doesn't matter whether you had a ring on your finger or not if you agreed to be exclusive. This shows the character of your husband as you now know he is capable of cheating if things don't go his way. Saying you were "only" dating or not having sex is just an excuse.


Disagree... Dating is about finding the right one. Dating is not about pretending you are married and having those same beliefs and expectations. Marriage is a whole lot more serious than dating I'd hope. 

I’d put it on my passive radar, but more or less write it off that he wasn’t committed to the ideals of marriage (and all that goes with it) to you until he actually decided he wanted to be married to you and popped the question. That is the key; He wasn’t ready to marry you when this happened and was still in that ‘finding the right one’ mode. Now he has found the right one. 

His actions once he made that decision have been consistent that he is committed to the marriage and you. He could have lied, but decided you were worth more than lies and trying to save his own skin. He was looking out for you instead of protecting himself. Just like it should be in a marriage.


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## Suspecting

WorkingOnMe said:


> Is that an oxymoron? Or, hmm, what's the correct term? A paradox? I'm not sure. Anyway, if they aren't having sex then they aren't the same as a married couple in every way now are they?


They were having sex previously and were agreed to be exclusive. What is a piece of paper and a ring going to change if the other can't be loyal before that.


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## aug

Racer said:


> His actions once he made that decision have been consistent that he is committed to the marriage and you. *He could have lied,* but decided you were worth more than lies and trying to save his own skin. He was looking out for you instead of protecting himself. Just like it should be in a marriage.


Well, he wasnt forthcoming, was he? Only after she found old texts in his old phone, did he confess. I doubt he would had voluntarily confess now after nearly 5 years.

He should had informed her before/during the engagement. He asked to be exclusive. She agreed. He broke that arrangement.


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## arked

I agree with MATMAT counseling might help in your situation. You seem to have a lot of resentment towards your husband because of this. If you are happy with the kind of man you husband has become since he married you I think the healthy thing to do is find someone to help you let go of your resentment.


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## TornNBroken

Laila619 said:


> Is it okay for a husband to cheat if the wife isn't having sex? What if there's a medical reason, like during the postpartum period when a woman is healing?


And this is exactly why comments like the one WorkingOnMe made are terrible. You put doubt in people's minds. No Laila, it is 100%, not even questionable, without a doubt, absolutely WRONG. No matter what is going on in the marriage. Don't let anyone (or yourself) ever tell you that its even the slightest bit justified.

Married, not married, as long as you are 'with' someone else, you should be faithful. If you don't want to be faithful, you break things off before you be with someone else. That's just the way it is. Period. 

I suppose the only exception is if you are dating someone and you have agreed its an open relationship, but that definitely doesn't apply to you from what you posted.


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## SomedayDig

aug said:


> Well, he wasnt forthcoming, was he? Only after she found old texts in his old phone, did he confess. I doubt he would had voluntarily confess now after nearly 5 years.
> 
> He should had informed her before/during the engagement. He asked to be exclusive. She agreed. He broke that arrangement.


Bingo! 3 point shot! Eagle from the fairway!

Game. Set. Match.

whatever...this is all that matters.


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## MattMatt

Suspecting said:


> Almost everyone, but not everyone.


Which is the point I was making.


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## Laila8

WorkingOnMe said:


> I have pretty well thought out views on this, but I'm not going to derail this thread. But I do think that being a refuser in an "exlcusive" (sic) relationship is as morally wrong as cheating.


I'd love to hear your thoughts. A wife should not deny her husband sex. That I definitely agree with! A girlfriend? She doesn't owe just a boyfriend anything. If he likes it, he can put a ring on it first.  A girl dating a guy does not owe him sex. I feel like it was my prerogative to change my mind. He could have broken up with me if he didn't like it.


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## SomedayDig

Again...her then boyfriend AGREED to the arrangement. If he did so without fully committing that's his f'ng problem and not any "refusal" on her part.

Let's get off this silly notion. The dude f'd up. Period. Let's not play these crazy games of sex cut off or refusal. God dammit, some people place waaayyy too high a f'ng priority on sex. It's pretty disheartening.


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## WorkingOnMe

Laila619 said:


> A girlfriend? She doesn't owe just a boyfriend anything. If he likes it, he can put a ring on it first.  A girl dating a guy does not owe him sex.


I agree with you there. A girl dating a guy does not owe him sex. But why would you turn that same coin over and think that a guy dating a girl he's not sexual with owes her celibacy?


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## Blue Firefly

TornNBroken said:


> So if you two people are virgins, engaged, and waiting til marriage (I know, so old-fashioned right?) and one of them sleeps with someone else, that's cool because they weren't 'exclusive' yet??? Get real bud.


1) They weren't virgins.

2) *They weren't engaged!!!!!!!!!!!*

Exclusive relationship? This is one of those things like "living together" that men and women think totally different about.

For women they mean something along the lines of pre-engagement. We're serious and we've taken one more step towards marriage.

For guys it means *try out period.* If things don't work out, we can immediately break up and go our separate ways with zero hard feelings, because *we haven't committed to anything.* No different than taking a car for an extended test drive (and if you pass a nicer looking car when you're out on the test drive, there's no reason not to dump the current test-drive-car and start test driving the new car).

The "exclusive relationship" they had (in the typical guys mind) is no more a serious commitment than that. Sorry to bust your bubble girls, but that's just the way it is with guys.

Now, what 6 years and two kids later, she wants to take their marriage and flush it down the toilet, because he broke (what was to him) a "commitment" that was no more serious than a commitment to test drive a car?


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## WorkingOnMe

Back to the original question, if I found out that my wife had cheated when we were dating, but not yet engaged, after I had cut her off from sex, I would be disappointed but not surprised.


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## Laila8

WorkingOnMe said:


> I agree with you there. A girl dating a guy does not owe him sex. But why would you turn that same coin over and think that a guy dating a girl he's not sexual with owes her celibacy?


Because he asked me for exclusivity. His exact words were that he did not want us to see other people.


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## SomedayDig

Okay. Let's role play this sh-t.

Girl: Look I know we had sex that time, but I'd really like to wait to have intercourse until we get married.

Guy: Okay. I can agree with that. I'll still get BJ's and we'll mess around?

Girl: Yeah. Absolutely


Guy goes out and screws another chick. This equals ZERO F'NG INTEGRITY.

I love how this place turns on chicks. Keep it up. Makes a good impression on those guys who have morals AND integrity.


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## TornNBroken

Blue Firefly said:


> 1)For guys it means *try out period.* If things don't work out, we can immediately break up and go our separate ways with zero hard feelings, because *we haven't committed to anything.* No different than taking a car for an extended test drive (and if you pass a nicer looking car when you're out on the test drive, there's no reason not to dump the current test-drive-car and start test driving the new car).
> 
> The "exclusive relationship" they had (in the typical guys mind) is no more a serious commitment than that. Sorry to bust your bubble girls, but that's just the way it is with guys.


Of course you have every right to return the test driven car and go get a new one. What you DONT have the right to do is to pull over at another dealership while test driving a Honda, leave the Honda temporarily, go drive around a porsche for a bit, and then come back and expect to continue your test drive of the Honda.


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## Laila8

SadSamIAm said:


> All of your feelings are real and appropriate. He did cheat. It is not clear how long you had been together when this happened. Sounds like a while. Guessing at least a year. You weren't married, so I think this somewhat lessens the betrayal.
> 
> My only advice is that if you chose to stay in your marriage, don't let it kill it. You will never forget, but you must forgive.
> 
> I cheated on my now wife after we had begun dating. We started dating in early November and I cheated on her at Christmas with an old girlfriend. I told her about it. We fought about it. But it has never gone away. I know she still resents me for it and she will throw it in my face at times. We have been married now for 25 years.
> 
> If you are going to let this episode affect your marriage for the rest of time, then end the marriage now.


I can relate to your wife. When my hub and I fight, I sometimes bring it up and throw it in his face. I know it's not healthy. If I'm having a particularly bad day, I'll sometimes think about it.

We were together for 14 months when he saw this other woman.


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## TornNBroken

Laila619 said:


> Because he asked me for exclusivity. His exact words were that he did not want us to see other people.


Exactly. Exclusivity is an agreement that two people can make at ANY point in time, regardless of their status (dating/engaged/married), if they live together, whatever. If they agree they are exclusive, that's it. And you are bound to be exclusive until you tell that person you no longer wish to be so. BUT UNTIL THAT POINT, you have no right to break the bonds of that exclusivity and sleep around, no matter how much sex you are getting.


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## WorkingOnMe

Laila619 said:


> I can relate to your wife. When my hub and I fight, I sometimes bring it up and throw it in his face. I know it's not healthy. If I'm having a particularly bad day, I'll sometimes think about it.
> 
> We were together for 14 months when he saw this other woman.


Laila, I feel for you. Yes, I think you were naive to believe you could cut him off without consequence. But it really was a douche bag move to sleep with the old flame. Dig is definitely right about that, he could have dumped you but he wanted to have his cake and eat it too, and that was just wrong.


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## lifeistooshort

I think I find the [email protected]#iest about this to be that he didn't tell her before she married him, when she could still make an informed decision, then was stupid enough to leave text messages for her to find. I wonder if she'd had her own little fling how forgiving he would be? And that talk about him not being sure if she liked him is cowardly BS, he had a chance to bang a hottie and took it after asking for exclusivity from her. Says a lot about his character really. I also think he would've banged the ow anyway, whether op cut him off or not. He wanted to bang that particular woman. Having said all of that, I don't know what's to be done about it now except to speak to a counselor, maybe just giving the op a chance to air her thoughts and feelings freely would help let it go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieceOfSky

Blue Firefly said:


> 1) Sorry to bust your bubble girls, but that's just the way it is with guys.


Please speak for yourself.
I for one don't see it the same as you. From others' statements here, I don't think you are even in the majority of male posters.
And, I'm pretty sure your assertion would not be agreed with by any if my male friends.


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## WorkingOnMe

Laila619 said:


> Because he asked me for exclusivity. His exact words were that he did not want us to see other people.


When he asked for exclusivity, was it before or after you cut him off? Any chance he thought that you cutting him off broke the exclusivity agreement until he popped the question?


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## Wiserforit

Laila619 said:


> Well, even though I "cut him off", I was still taking care of him. He was getting oral sex plenty while we were dating.


You just contradicted your own OP. 



> He and I had sex 5 months into the relationship, but then after a few months I decided I wanted to save that for marriage.


When someone goes from no sex in an OP to "oral sex plenty" in a thread where sex is the subject then I have to discount what is being said. It isn't an insignificant oversight. 

Utilizing the "oral sex is not sex" deception? Regardless, I don't have a lot of faith that the entire straight story is being told.


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## Suspecting

Laila619 said:


> I'd love to hear your thoughts. A wife should not deny her husband sex. That I definitely agree with! A girlfriend? She doesn't owe just a boyfriend anything. If he likes it, he can put a ring on it first.  A girl dating a guy does not owe him sex. I feel like it was my prerogative to change my mind. He could have broken up with me if he didn't like it.


Actually, there is no obligation to have sex with your spouse if you don't want in a marriage either. That thing is a relic from the past no longer relevant in a modern marriage.


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## Laila8

TornNBroken said:


> Of course you have every right to return the test driven car and go get a new one. What you DONT have the right to do is to pull over at another dealership while test driving a Honda, leave the Honda temporarily, go drive around a porsche for a bit, and then come back and expect to continue your test drive of the Honda.


Hey, I wanna be the porsche!


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## TornNBroken

Laila619 said:


> Hey, I wanna be the porsche!


I think Honda's are a smarter purchase


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## Laila8

WorkingOnMe said:


> When he asked for exclusivity, was it before or after you cut him off? Any chance he thought that you cutting him off broke the exclusivity agreement until he popped the question?


No no, this is the time line:

1) we meet
2) he asks (begs) me for exclusivity after about 2 months of dating and I agree. Says he does not want us to see others
3) we both say ILY and have sex at 5 months in
4) I "cut him off" after having sex for about two months? Tell him I love him but I want to save the whole shebang for marriage, but we can still do other things. He says okay and he understands.
5) After 14 months of dating, he meets the other woman and sleeps with her
6) He proposes to me two months later, after 16 months of dating


----------



## SomedayDig

Laila619 said:


> No no, this is the time line:
> 
> 1) we meet
> 2) he asks (begs) me for exclusivity after about 2 months of dating and I agree. Says he does not want us to see others
> 3) we both say ILY and have sex at 5 months in
> 4) I "cut him off" after having sex for about two months? Tell him I love him but I want to save the whole shebang for marriage, but we can still do other things. He says okay and he understands.
> 5) After 14 months of dating, he meets the other woman and sleeps with her
> 6) He proposes to me two months later, after 16 months of dating


Damn. My role play thing was spot on.

I'm f'ng goooood!!


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## lisab0105

Drop it? Get over it? She's making a problem where there isn't one? Not engaged therefore not that serious of an offense? Lets see how many different ways I can say F'ck that noise without getting banned...hmmm not that many. He cheated on her. Period. He married her knowing he has betrayed her. Just because there wasn't a ring or an official engagement doesn't make cheating any less f'cking sucky, people. It eats at you until there is nothing left. It makes everything about the relationship feel like a lie. The feelings are no different than had they been married, any one care to say otherwise can get in line to kiss my grits. How dare any of you that has put his cheating on her. His fault! His flaw! Not hers!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

lisab0105 said:


> Drop it? Get over it? She's making a problem where there isn't one? Not engaged therefore not that serious of an offense? Lets see how many different ways I can say F'ck that noise without getting banned...hmmm not that many. He cheated on her. Period. He married her knowing he has betrayed her. Just because there wasn't a ring or an official engagement doesn't make cheating any less f'cking sucky, people. It eats at you until there is nothing left. It makes everything about the relationship feel like a lie. The feelings are no different than had they been married, any one care to say otherwise can get in line to kiss my grits. How dare any of you that has put his cheating on her. His fault! His flaw! Not hers!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hit like 17 times. All the damn thing did was keep Unliking and then liking it.


----------



## Mavash.

Yes it's upsetting. Yes it sucks. No it doesn't speak very well of his character.

However it's been 5 years and two kids now.

Find a sympathetic counselor (for you if you need it), keep your eyes open, and let it go.

What other option do you have?

Are you going to divorce him over it?

Is it a deal breaker?


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## TornNBroken

I don't think it is something that should cause you to up an divorce him. But it is definitely an eye opener and should make you look at things in a different light. My wife never slept with anyone else before we got married, but did have a few indiscretions (i.e. kissing other guys while we were together). I just 'got over' those incidents and was too trusting down the line. Had I had a greater baseline level of suspicion, perhaps I could've helped to prevent some of her infidelity that I just recently found out about. Not that it was my fault, it wasn't, but I still wouldn't have trusted her so completely had I truly realized the "character flaws" she had exhibited whilst we dated.


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## lisab0105

SomedayDig said:


> I hit like 17 times. All the damn thing did was keep Unliking and then liking it.


Lol I appreciate the effort Dig 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Suspecting

I think the standard advice here for betrayed spouses is to start digging around a bit. Your husband hid this for five years so it's not impossible there could be more. Check if there's anything unusual on his Facebook, phone(s), logs from the phone operator where he's been texting/calling, email(s) and everything else that can be used to contact people just to be sure.


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## Laila8

I'm not going to divorce him or anything, as he's a good father and husband. But it's definitely changed my opinion of him and made me view him with contempt at times. I also don't feel confident with my own body anymore, and wish I had bigger breasts. If he does cheat while we're married, I would leave. But I don't think he would do that. He works with all guys, and after work he always comes right home. We're together all the time, and we have an active and good sex life. However, if he started working around female co-workers, would I trust him then? Nope, can't say that I would.


----------



## Laila8

Suspecting said:


> I think the standard advice here for betrayed spouses is to start digging around a bit. Your husband hid this for five years so it's not impossible there could be more. Check if there's anything unusual on his Facebook, phone(s), logs from the phone operator where he's been texting/calling, email(s) and everything else that can be used to contact people just to be sure.


He doesn't have a Facebook account and wouldn't even know how to set one up, haha. I check his e-mail and cell at random times and there's never anything. He doesn't care if I look, I know all his passwords. I'll still probably never trust him 100% though, sad but true.


----------



## Married-Man

Blue Firefly said:


> 1) They weren't virgins.
> 
> 2) *They weren't engaged!!!!!!!!!!!*
> 
> Exclusive relationship? This is one of those things like "living together" that men and women think totally different about.
> 
> For women they mean something along the lines of pre-engagement. We're serious and we've taken one more step towards marriage.
> 
> For guys it means *try out period.* If things don't work out, we can immediately break up and go our separate ways with zero hard feelings, because *we haven't committed to anything.* No different than taking a car for an extended test drive (and if you pass a nicer looking car when you're out on the test drive, there's no reason not to dump the current test-drive-car and start test driving the new car).
> 
> The "exclusive relationship" they had (in the typical guys mind) is no more a serious commitment than that. Sorry to bust your bubble girls, but that's just the way it is with guys.
> 
> Now, what 6 years and two kids later, she wants to take their marriage and flush it down the toilet, because he broke (what was to him) a "commitment" that was no more serious than a commitment to test drive a car?




This.

OK -- so this basically is the frame of mind I am trying to convince myself that I should operate in when trying to assuage my guilt for doing the exact same thing as OP's husband. 

I made some stupid pre-enagement regrettable indiscretions before my then live-in GF decided to give up the V (she was a virgin but would do other things (whole 'nother thread really) 

The v-giving-up helped turn things around and I we got engaged a while later... and I've been a committed and faithful loyal fiance and H and father ever since for 15 yrs.... 

She knows on some level -- as I've tried to confess.. (after we married) but she cut me off and didn't want to hear it...I tried again but she got upset, cut me off and changed the subject.

I still struggle and wonder if I should force her to be confronted with all the details... but it seems like she doesn't want to know -- blissful ignorance... so maybe it is more my issue. What good would rubbing her face in it do her... would it just make me feel better to have her know something that would make her sad if she was forced to learn? Weird, huh?

My first (subtle/gentle) attempt at telling her this she shoved her head in the sand and shut me up...

We are very much in love and very happy together and have a great life and good intimacy and very strong trust in each other (some peaks and valleys here and there -- but by and large we are very happy and our marriage is great and I am so very lucky to have her as my wife... she is on a pedestal.

I regret my dumb choices in hindsight (at the time notsomuch -- "test-drive mode" so to speak). but in hindsight I wish I would have had the courage to confess before/during engagement... but that was not high on my list --fear/compartmentalization or whatever.... but she is happy and seems none the wiser and does not seem to want to be wiser in this regard... so I carry it. Also I think part of my rationale for not forcing this on her it is to protect her feelings. Do i have the right to force her to look at something she likely would prefer to turn a blind eye to?

Sorry to jack the thread -- I;ve been thinking of posting here for while but don't know really what I'm trying to achieve.. just vent I suppose or be made to feel worse or better :scratchhead:.


----------



## TornNBroken

Married-Man said:


> This.
> 
> OK -- so this basically is the frame of mind I am trying to convince myself that I should operate in when trying to assuage my guilt for doing the exact same thing as OP's husband.
> 
> I made some stupid pre-enagement regrettable indiscretions before my then live-in GF decided to give up the V (she was a virgin but would do other things (whole 'nother thread really)
> 
> The v-giving-up helped turn things around and I we got engaged a while later... and I've been a committed and faithful loyal fiance and H and father ever since for 15 yrs....
> 
> She knows on some level -- as I've tried to confess.. (after we married) but she cut me off and didn't want to hear it...I tried again but she got upset, cut me off and changed the subject.
> 
> I still struggle and wonder if I should force her to be confronted with all the details... but it seems like she doesn't want to know -- blissful ignorance... so maybe it is more my issue. What good would rubbing her face in it do her... would it just make me feel better to have her know something that would make her sad if she was forced to learn? Weird, huh?
> 
> My first (subtle/gentle) attempt at telling her this she shoved her head in the sand and shut me up...
> 
> We are very much in love and very happy together and have a great life and good intimacy and very strong trust in each other (some peaks and valleys here and there -- but by and large we are very happy and our marriage is great and I am so very lucky to have her as my wife... she is on a pedestal.
> 
> I regret my dumb choices in hindsight (at the time notsomuch -- "test-drive mode" so to speak). but in hindsight I wish I would have had the courage to confess before/during engagement... but that was not high on my list --fear/compartmentalization or whatever.... but she is happy and seems none the wiser and does not seem to want to be wiser in this regard... so I carry it. Also I think part of my rationale for not forcing this on her it is to protect her feelings. Do i have the right to force her to look at something she likely would prefer to turn a blind eye to?
> 
> Sorry to jack the thread -- I;ve been thinking of posting here for while but don't know really what I'm trying to achieve.. just vent I suppose or be made to feel worse or better :scratchhead:.


Would the goal of telling her be to remove your guilt? Or do you feel the need to tell her out of a sense of duty and because you feel she has the right to know?

If the result is that you feel less guilt cause you final have gotten it off your chest, but she is now crushed and insecure, is that a desired outcome?

I don't know what the professional advice would be in a scenario like this, but I think it'd be good to really try and figure out your motivation and what the likely results will be.

Feel free to ignore my advice as I don't claim to know the 'right' thing to do here.


----------



## Laila8

I appreciate hearing your perspective, Married-Man. Do you think you had these indiscretions because your gf at the time was not sleeping with you? Were you just not as attracted to her as you were to the other woman? Or do you think you would have had these indiscretions even if she was intimate with you?


----------



## Married-Man

Hmmm.. down the rabbit-hole!

I guess short answer is yes -- that did play a part. GF did give HJs/BJs -- just not the REAL DEAL -- and I really wanted it... so I went to the "professionals" a couple times (not proud -- but no strings and very easy).. purely physical... just something that can't be had from a virgin. But if we had already crossed that bridge - I;m pretty sure I would not have sought out "professional help".

On an earlier occasion I gave in to the advances of a co-worker that pursued me very aggressively -- I was not really attracted to her sexually but she really wanted me and wanted to BJ me really bad... and..well I made her day and let her... kind of an ego boost - but stupid... Why did I let that happen? A girl really really wanted to S* my D* and at age 25/26 I went with it... not really thinking long term... more in the moment, you know? Would I have let it happen if my GF was giving me the real deal... I dunno -- I hope not.


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## mablenc

Wow I'm suprised by the responses, I do think that you should take into account how he has been as a husband, however I feel that you feel disappointed because he was not upfront and took away your power to decided whether to stay or go. I would seek MC, it can help you sort out your feelings. Please don't feel insicure he did pick you after all. 

Please don't believe that it's your fault because of the sex ordeal. Many couple including my self and husband waited until we were married we dated 2 years and there was no bj or hi or anything. Commitment is commitment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieceOfSky

Laila619 said:


> I'm not going to divorce him or anything, as he's a good father and husband. But it's definitely changed my opinion of him and made me view him with contempt at times. I also don't feel confident with my own body anymore, and wish I had bigger breasts. If he does cheat while we're married, I would leave. But I don't think he would do that. He works with all guys, and after work he always comes right home. We're together all the time, and we have an active and good sex life. However, if he started working around female co-workers, would I trust him then? Nope, can't say that I would.


Dear Laila619,

I'm sorry you have to deal with this. There are many similarities to this incident and one I've experienced too. And, the feelings you've expressed and the quandary you are in seem awfully familiar.

You have few choices here, but I think there are some actions you can take now that will positively affect your future happiness, and the sanity of your children's home:

1) Don't swallow it. Ignore anyone that tells you that that is what you should do. Your feelings are what they are -- neither right or wrong, neither "justifiable" or not. Swallowing them will only give them an opportunity to affect your future relationship in subtle and destructive ways.

2) Learn what folks here recommend the betrayed spouses here should do when they first learn of their betrayal. Only after you see how EA and PA's and the marriages affected by them tend to have patterns, then decide for yourself what your situation my have in common with these others.

3). It seems to me that what folks do or don't do when confronted with an EA or PA makes all the difference in the outcome. Im not an expert, but it seems setting clear and safety-enhancing boundaries is essential, especially when someone had crossed the line once already. Educate yourself and Take control of the outcome.

4) IMHO, more people are capable of cheating than I had ever imagined before my wife's EA and my coming here. Good people. Great mothers and fathers. Face that square on, and you can decrease the chances of being a victim again.

5) It makes me angry at your DH that this leaves you not feeling confident about your body, and that you've understandably done some comparisons of yourself with the OW. I cannot speak for your husband, but, fwiw, he chose you not her or anyone to spend his life with, and to build a family with. I'm sure there are many more men than you've ever thought possible that would choose you over her. There is much more to you than any measurements! You are the Porsche!!


----------



## SadSamIAm

Laila619 said:


> I can relate to your wife. When my hub and I fight, I sometimes bring it up and throw it in his face. I know it's not healthy. If I'm having a particularly bad day, I'll sometimes think about it.
> 
> We were together for 14 months when he saw this other woman.


I understand why this affected my wife, but the difference is that we were only dating a couple of months with no talk so exclusivity. We were 18 and 21. And I have been faithful for 30 years since then (25 married). 

My point is if you love him and want a happy marriage, please find a way to forgive him.


----------



## Laila8

PieceOfSky said:


> 5) It makes me angry at your DH that this leaves you not feeling confident about your body, and that you've understandably done some comparisons of yourself with the OW. I cannot speak for your husband, but, fwiw, he chose you not her or anyone to spend his life with, and to build a family with. I'm sure there are many more men than you've ever thought possible that would choose you over her. There is much more to you than any measurements! You are the Porsche!!


Thank you, PieceofSky, that's very sweet of you to say. I do tend to think he only chose me because the OW didn't want him.


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## SadSamIAm

Laila619 said:


> Thank you, PieceofSky, that's very sweet of you to say. I do tend to think he only chose me because the OW didn't want him.


I don't believe that. There is much more to marriage than a couple of big breasts. Most guys are happy with whatever is in front of them. 

This news is recent for you. It is like it just happened. Give yourself some time. 

You have to give your husband credit for the partner he has been over the years. It was one stupid mistake that happened prior to marriage. Yes, he cheated, but don't lose your marriage over it.


----------



## arbitrator

It may have been a long time ago, but I'll agree that the pain can still feel like it happened yesterday! If this incident still presents problems to you, then I would highly suggest MC, as I don't really think that your marriage is quite worth scrapping just yet without making a bonafide effort to save it!


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## PieceOfSky

Laila619 said:


> I do tend to think he only chose me because the OW didn't want him.


I hope you will face that fear head on, and not let it do permanent damage. I'm not sure there is anything he can do to make that feeling go away. Only you can work it out and defuse it. IMHO, the best way to do that is with a good IC. I'm doing that myself now.

Btw, I think these sorts if self doubts are pretty common, especially in thoughtful, introspective people like you, especially once such a kick in the gut has been received. The people that end up finding happiness and peace again are probably the ones that figure out what to do about these self doubts.


----------



## aug

Laila619 said:


> I'm not going to divorce him or anything, as he's a good father and husband. But it's definitely changed my opinion of him and made me view him with contempt at times. I also don't feel confident with my own body anymore, and wish I had bigger breasts. If he does cheat while we're married, I would leave. But I don't think he would do that. He works with all guys, and after work he always comes right home. We're together all the time, and we have an active and good sex life. However, if he started working around female co-workers, would I trust him then? Nope, can't say that I would.


There goes the honeymoon part of the marriage. Welcome to the next phase.


----------



## ironman

mablenc said:


> Wow I'm suprised by the responses, I do think that you should take into account how he has been as a husband, however I feel that you feel disappointed because he was not upfront and took away your power to decided whether to stay or go. I would seek MC, it can help you sort out your feelings. Please don't feel insicure he did pick you after all.
> 
> Please don't believe that it's your fault because of the sex ordeal. Many couple including my self and husband waited until we were married we dated 2 years and there was no bj or hi or anything. Commitment is commitment.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree with the above post completely as it is well stated. I too am surprised at some of the posters here trying to goad you into flushing what you are describing as a good marriage down the drain ... and I'm usually one of the first ones to call for divorce in cases of infidelity! 

Counseling I believe has been the best advice suggested to you. You need to address your resentment .. because it can get out of hand (the people here cheering it on certainly aren't helping).

I still think your situation is being blown out of proportion. It's up to you to decide whether you're going to fixate on the good or the bad.


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## 827Aug

Post have been deleted. Some were just plain rude, unhelpful, and/or tread-jacking. Please refrain from posting on this thread unless you have helpful advice for the OP!


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## Laila8

Thanks to everyone who has responded for your advice. I guess someone thought something was off with my story somehow, but I can assure you I would have no reason to make anything up. What would be the benefit, or the point?

I realize that this situation is not as bad as some of the truly heartbreaking, gut-wrenching threads here and I really feel for those posters going through that. It hurts a lot, and we weren't even married at the time. I can only imagine the unbelievable pain of a spouse doing this to you.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Laila619 said:


> Thanks to everyone who has responded for your advice. I guess someone thought something was off with my story somehow, but I can assure you I would have no reason to make anything up. What would be the benefit, or the point?
> 
> I realize that this situation is not as bad as some of the truly heartbreaking, gut-wrenching threads here and I really feel for those posters going through that. It hurts a lot, and we weren't even married at the time. I can only imagine the unbelievable pain of a spouse doing this to you.


My similar pre-marital tale hurt me a lot too. It's very real, and very much a blow. It still bothers me at times, 20 years later, if only because it was my first chance to handle difficulties well and I failed to do so. *i* set a bad precedent.

Ps don't be trickledtruthed about this.


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## Dad&Hubby

Laila619 said:


> Thanks to everyone who has responded for your advice. I guess someone thought something was off with my story somehow, but I can assure you I would have no reason to make anything up. What would be the benefit, or the point?
> 
> *I realize that this situation is not as bad as some of the truly heartbreaking, gut-wrenching threads here and I really feel for those posters going through that. * It hurts a lot, and we weren't even married at the time. I can only imagine the unbelievable pain of a spouse doing this to you.


Wrong. For YOU! your situation is the worst because it's your pain.

Laila, first things first. Recognize that you're thoughts of your husband will be changed. It's a matter of how much. You have an "injury" that you don't know how bad it is yet. That will happen over time as your mind processes it. You're still in a bit of shock and you're battling the two different sides (no issue because not married, big issue because you were exclusive). You mind will eventually fall on one side and THAT'S when you'll feel all of the emotions that are associated with this.

That's why you need to go to both individual counseling as well as marriage counseling that specializes in infidelity as well as one who will put the appropriate emphasis on this episode in your life. Finding out about this is just like if he cheated last weekend unfortunately. Also you're going to assign your perceptions of him as the man he is today, versus the man he was. That is a HUGE mistake many WS make when the BS finds out years later. Any progress the WS made from that day is completely lost and they can be misperceived because of their previous actions.

You need IC because you need your confidence back. Your H's thoughts and perceptions don't make you a beautiful woman...YOU DO! Your breasts don't define your beauty, your mind, attitude, confidence all are more important to your beauty than your 3 digits (36-24-36 etc). Get your confidence back for yourself. Then start processing your WH and seek counseling. He's going to need it too.


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## lisab0105

Laila619 said:


> Thanks to everyone who has responded for your advice. I guess someone thought something was off with my story somehow, but I can assure you I would have no reason to make anything up. What would be the benefit, or the point?
> 
> I realize that this situation is not as bad as some of the truly heartbreaking, gut-wrenching threads here and I really feel for those posters going through that. It hurts a lot, and we weren't even married at the time. I can only imagine the unbelievable pain of a spouse doing this to you.


Laila, your pain is NO DIFFERENT then any one that was married when cheated on. That piece of paper doesn't mean anything where infidelity is concerned. Betrayal is betrayal point blank.


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## scorp79

I was engaged to be married early next year.

My Fiance cheated with a bloke she met on an iPhone game called Kingdom of Camelot (kay2). Don't know if she slept with them but logs display they were definitely planning a catchup. Pics/dirty talk massive emotional investment and performed through an app called touch. First thing she would do is wish him a good morning babe xxxxxxxxxx the 'moment' she woke up.

We are not getting married now and will likely be split in around 2-3 weeks (when my housing becomes available).

Never know though I may have a change of heart by then. I am definitely not being rash in my decision.


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## Remains

Laila, I too was cheated on in the 1st flourishes of my relationship. Also, it was an old flame, but also an old gf. So, it was different to your situation. They had had a long relationship (5 years) and not been split very long when I met him (learnt my lesson on rebound there), and it was 4 times (so he told me) and not once like you. Also, we were not and still are not married. I found out 1 and a half years into our relationship. The sex (4 times?) had gone on in the 1st 9 months of our relationship. 

Like you, he had said he loved me. He said he wanted me forever. He said he wanted an exclusive relationship (I was beginning to suspect something and asked if he wanted open relationship. He said NO! Obviously his answer was what he wished for me, not him). Yes, he was proclaiming his love for me! 

When I found out, it was the most devastating experience I have felt. I was, and still am, so in love with this man. We have an amazing relationship (of course only with the infidelity put aside) and I have been very deeply in love with this man. I wanted him forever. This has shattered me. Though it is not so much the infidelity that shattered me, it was the lies and the trickle truth that did all the damage. I now don't believe he has told me everything, he kept an important truth from me for a full year, and I don't believe (due to his reactions and behaviour on the subject) that he has given me all of it. Thus, our relationship is barely there anymore. There are no solid foundations, there is nothing to build upon. There is very little left. We are more off than on now, and I don't see anything improving. Time to move on has been coming for a long time now.

So, what I am saying is, don't minimise your own pain just because it is 'not so bad as other stories/you weren't married'. Your pain is yours. However, you do need to find some perspective on it. And I believe talking through ALL of it with your husband will do that to a great degree. His feelings at the time, his actions, his thoughts, the why's, all of it. At least as far as you need to go with it. And do it all over again for as many times as you need. 

The most important thing is to make sure you have all of the truth from him. That he realises how important it is to give you all of the truth. Nothing hidden or ommitted. 

It is still early days for you (I assume you have only just found out) and time will also help massively to put this into perspective. It took me 3 months to begin to have some perspective and for my mind to stop being a complete mess. It is a gradual process that can be helped enormously by his actions and willingness to talk and be open with you. 

On a final note, don't get hung up about your boobs. Don't pin all your woes on that insignificant thing. You will find that your only solution will be to mutilate yourself for a bigger pair. But you will still feel the same afterwards. If he loves you, he loves your boobs too. 

Mine are small....I wish I had bigger. But hey, I also wish for a lot of things I most likely will never get. And I certainly would never swap mine for a pair that will only look worse with age! That woman will sag a lot quicker than you my dear! There is always a plus side.


----------



## Laila8

Scorp79 and Remains,

I'm so sorry you both had to experience this, too. Sucks doesn't it?


----------



## frozen

LAILA,

I posted some advice earlier in your thread. But I want to add something for you to focus on.

Do not compare your life to others, ever. You have not walked in others shoes, and will never know the pain others have had to go through, regarding infidelity or anything else. Life is hard and there is joy and pain. 
I say this because I never want you to listen to anyone that tells you to get over it. The pain is there and you need to feel it. Because I have found that allowing myself to endure hurt clears the way for joy, love, and the good things life has to offer as well.

Your husband really seems like he chose you a long time ago. I don't think 2 people are ever so compatible that we couldn't find things that attract us to other people that our partners just don't have, or even things we don't particularly like about our partners.

We choose our partners based on the whole package, the finished product. You were picked because you were the better choice. So many here proffer that there are rules of dating and he should have broken up with you, or told you the truth earlier. I don't know that those were better choices for him at all.

Maybe he should not have slept with her but lived the rest of his life wondering what it would be like? Maybe he should have broken up with you and quite possibly have lost you for ever? 

LIFE is not black and white, we are constantly mixing all types of stuff together in our heads and making choices. 

Tend to your garden, have husband share in your pain and you will grow more purposeful and connected in your relationship.


----------



## ironman

frozen said:


> LAILA,
> 
> I posted some advice earlier in your thread. But I want to add something for you to focus on.
> 
> Do not compare your life to others, ever. You have not walked in others shoes, and will never know the pain others have had to go through, regarding infidelity or anything else. Life is hard and there is joy and pain.
> I say this because I never want you to listen to anyone that tells you to get over it. *The pain is there and you need to feel it.* Because I have found that allowing myself to endure hurt clears the way for joy, love, and the good things life has to offer as well.
> 
> Your husband really seems like he chose you a long time ago. I don't think 2 people are ever so compatible that we couldn't find things that attract us to other people that our partners just don't have, or even things we don't particularly like about our partners.
> 
> We choose our partners based on the whole package, the finished product. You were picked because you were the better choice. So many here proffer that there are rules of dating and he should have broken up with you, or told you the truth earlier. I don't know that those were better choices for him at all.
> 
> Maybe he should not have slept with her but lived the rest of his life wondering what it would be like? Maybe he should have broken up with you and quite possibly have lost you for ever?
> 
> LIFE is not black and white, we are constantly mixing all types of stuff together in our heads and making choices.
> 
> Tend to your garden, *have husband share in your pain and you will grow more purposeful and connected in your relationship.*



This post is excellent advice ... except for the bolded red parts. Frozen, while I can appreciate that making your partner "share your pain" worked for you as a coping mechanism ... as a general "truism", I think it stinks.

While some people love a good "pity party", others detest it. People deal with personal difficulties in very different ways. Some use humor, others consume their time with hobbies or work ... some even abuse substances. There is no one right/wrong answer to how to do it. The passage of time probably works best.

Personally, I hate feeling sorry for myself and instead like to improve myself and my situation rather than have others feel sorry for me. But that's just me. Laila, might enjoy making her husband suffer .. I don't know. That's for her to decide. Something tells me though, that that would be a counter-productive/self-destructive route for her to go.

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## frozen

Maybe I was unclear in my post. 

I'm saying her pain is real she should not try to rug sweep or compartmentalize it. Once that part is acknowledged, how she communicates it to its also important.

I did not mean for her to wallow in it or look for pity. I meant she needs to insist on getting as much or as little support from WS as she need. 

His is not a situation with a current affair and her WS needs to be fully aware of the damage it caused. He needs to learn how to be sensitive to the injuries his past transgression has caused now that bs is aware.

Edited for autocorrect error.


----------



## Single Malt

Laila619 said:


> ...while he or she was dating you, would it bother you?


Absolutely. So much to the point that the relationship/marriage would deteriorate for me from that point on.

I am divorced. My x-wife cheated on me before marriage, but I didn't find out until 8 years later. She cheated after I gave her the respect of putting an engagement ring on her finger.

After I found out she cheated before marriage, all I could see was the word CHEATER stamped across her forehead. Well because I didn't trust her, I investigated and found out she cheated while married too.

Im my opinon, once a cheater always a cheater. I know people out there will say its not so. Sure people might be able to stop cheating, but its still in their character as far as I'm concerned.

So yes, cheating before marriage and keeping quiet about it is entrapment as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## Single Malt

Blue Firefly said:


> If this is the worst thing you ever have to worry about, then count yourself lucky. Just forget it; don't punish him for it; don't ever mention it again; just forget it and get on with having a long and happy life/marriage.


That sounds all well and good, and easy. But it isn't just so easy for someone that found out they were cheated on to "drop it".

If she decides to keep the marriage, I agree she shouldn't "punish him for it". But the problem is, he punished her by giving her something to occupy her thoughts. Its a crap situation. He gets to get away with it and expect no grief, she gets to have it sit in the back of her mind from here until who knows when.


----------



## Laila8

Single Malt said:


> Absolutely. So much to the point that the relationship/marriage would deteriorate for me from that point on.
> 
> I am divorced. My x-wife cheated on me before marriage, but I didn't find out until 8 years later. She cheated after I gave her the respect of putting an engagement ring on her finger.
> 
> After I found out she cheated before marriage, all I could see was the word CHEATER stamped across her forehead. Well because I didn't trust her, I investigated and found out she cheated while married too.
> 
> Im my opinon, once a cheater always a cheater. I know people out there will say its not so. Sure people might be able to stop cheating, but its still in their character as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> So yes, cheating before marriage and keeping quiet about it is entrapment as far as I'm concerned.


I hear you. I do think cheating is a character issue, and my husband has already shown he has weak character. 

I'm really sorry your ex-wife did that to you.


----------



## Laila8

frozen said:


> Maybe I was unclear in my post.
> 
> I'm saying her pain is real she should not try to rug sweep or compartmentalize it. Once that part is acknowledged, how she communicates it to its also important.
> 
> I did not mean for her to wallow in it or look for pity. I meant she needs to insist on getting as much or as little support from WS as she need.
> 
> His is not a situation with a current affair and her WS needs to be fully aware of the damage it caused. He needs to learn how to be sensitive to the injuries his past transgression has caused now that bs is aware.
> 
> Edited for autocorrect error.


I honestly don't think he 'gets' it sometimes. I think sometimes he is frustrated when I bring it up.


----------



## jnj express

Its out in the open---and should be done and over with---but that's on you

You were in a committed relationship---not engaged---not really a grey area, but he did what he did------

You can either get over it---or you can let it make you, and the whole family miserable

He has not strayed, in any way shape or form since he gave you a ring---he loves you, and the kids, he takes care of you, he honors his vows---no matter what, this was still prior to you getting a ring---so again you can let it grind on you, and in so doing cause problems for the mge---or you can let it go

But do make sure of this---if you keep bringing this up, and do drive a wedge into the mge-----and if somehow---the mge were to fall apart---there aren't a lot of great choices for male companionship out there, as you grow older---and there sure as he*l ain't gonna be another of your H---out there, so think hard about how far you really wanna push this

If you read most of my posts---I go after cheaters hard---but this situation is not that way---and what you are allowing yourself to do, is to very possibly ruin a good working viable mge


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## Laila8

My H is gaslighting me about the true extent of this thing.

Way back when this supposed one-time meet up happened, it also coincided with his birthday month. I remember I was going to leave a surprise sexy love note for his birthday tucked inside his bedside drawer so he could discover it as birthday surprise. But when I opened his drawer, a whole box of condoms plus some loose ones out of the box were gone. This was very troubling to me because obviously, at that time, I had stopped having sex with him.

When I casually asked him about it back then, he said that he "masturbated into the single condoms while watching porn" and the entire box of condoms? They were the Extended Pleasure kind that helps you last longer in bed. Well he said he read something online about how the ingredient in them that makes you last longer was bad for you, so he "threw them out." At the time, even though it sounds SO stupid, I had no reason to doubt him because he was the model boyfriend, or else I just didn't want to believe he could do something like that, so I ignored it.

Obviously now it all makes sense. He was using them with her. Yet when I asked him again last night about those condoms, 5 years later he's still sticking to the same story, that he masturbated in some of them and he threw the Extended Pleasure ones out. Men don't masturbate into condoms! Why is he gaslighting me? It's so obvious he used them with her. I think he actually believes his own lies, he is so insistent that he's telling me the truth about those condoms. It's crazymaking!!! I know in my gut he's lying about the condoms, but he won't crack.


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## Laila8

He is doing the infamous trickle-truth. How do I get him to tell me the entire sordid tale?


----------



## PieceOfSky

I wish I had answers for you. Perhaps he needs to be told that it is one thing what he has already done, including lies of omission, that took place a long time ago. But, it is an entirely different thing if he is lying to you now, including the gaslighting and trickle-truth vibe you are picking up. If you press him on any if this, I would urge you to emphasize NOW is the time to come clean.

There is something to be said for letting things go at some point, but IMHO that is not something one can will into existence. You deserved none if this. It's not like, in my case, where I knew before marriage and kids that certain things happened; I was free to walk away, but I consciously chose to stay. You did not get to choose to stay (up until now).

I do worry you need better advice tailored to you than you can find here. Is IC an option for you, financially and otherwise?

Re. Masturbating into a condom, I'll confess I did that once, when I was a virgin with no opportunity in sight for a better use of it. It was simply out of curiosity about how to put it on, and well, as long as it was there.... I may have at one other point in my life, when I still had a left-over supply no longer of use, but, it was never a thing; and, i have thrown out "expired" ones too (jeesh, that should have been a clue to my future!). That said, I mildly have the same suspicion you do that he found a real use for them.

There are books about coping with infidelity. Don't know enough to recommend any.

I just wish you didn't have to navigate this alone, or just with those her on TAM.


----------



## ironman

Laila619 said:


> My H is gaslighting me about the true extent of this thing.
> 
> Men don't masturbate into condoms! Why is he gaslighting me? It's so obvious he used them with her. I think he actually believes his own lies, he is so insistent that he's telling me the truth about those condoms. It's crazymaking!!! I know in my gut he's lying about the condoms, but he won't crack.


Laila, I'm starting to believe you enjoy drama in your life. According to you, you have a loving family and what you described as a model husband (except for this prior blemish). Do you realize how rare that is? Approximately 50% divorce rate in the U.S. Do you want to be another statistic because of this incident he has already fessed up to? Not to mention that it happened before you were even engaged?

I also am usually the first to call for divorce over infidelity, but your case seems like it would be such a foolish waste of a good marriage. Don't over-dramatize this by letting the negative-nannies cheer you on. I'm actually starting to feel a bit sorry for you because you seem to be headed down a path of self-destruction ... and it's totally unnecessary.


PS: And, ummmm ... sorry dear, but some guys do masturbate with condoms.


----------



## thatbpguy

Laila619 said:


> ...while he or she was dating you, would it bother you?
> 
> The story is: my DH and I were exclusively dating at the time, we were in love, things were going pretty well, but I was not sleeping with him. He and I had sex 5 months into the relationship, but then after a few months I decided I wanted to save that for marriage. He was seemingly fine with it as he had never even slept with anyone before me. I was his first, he was my second. He was 30 at the time, and I was 26. DH was one of those guys who was a late bloomer.
> 
> Anyway, it turns out that DH and this woman whom he always had a crush on but she was never interested in dating him got in touch somehow (while he and I were exclusively dating), and because he'd always been curious about her and had always been hot for her, they met up for dinner and slept together once. It was a one time thing, and they never contacted each other again as far as I know. I assume she didn't want to see him again, but I do not know for sure. He proposed to me two months after their date. We're happily married now for 4.5 years with two kids.
> 
> I didn't find out about this little fling until after we were married. Am I right to be upset about this, or since it was before we were married should I just forget about it? DH has been a loyal husband and has never even remotely come close to cheating on me since we got married. He is a loving, attentive husband and father, we have a great sex life, he tells me I'm beautiful all the time, etc. He is an open book, I have no worries about his faithfulness.
> 
> But in the back of my mind, I sometimes feel like he really liked her more than me, but since she wasn't available he settled for me. Or that she was hotter than me, she was the one who got away, the one he always lusted after. UGH! It's really killing my self-esteem every time I picture them.  I have seen her picture and she is definitely hot. She has, let's just say a very large chest, whereas I have an average bust at best. DH is definitely a breast man, which makes me feel even more sad/insecure about the whole thing. I know he loves me, but I just can't get over the fact that he saw her and slept with her when we were dating. I want to be the woman that he is so hot for like that, although he claims I am.
> 
> Thank you for any advice.


I just read your initial post and maybe this has been said, so it's just my $0.02.

As a guy, I see a lot of red flags. 

Clearly he had (translates into has) little to no respect for you or the relationship. The fact he deceived you was bad enough.

I think you have someone who cannot be trusted. Not that I'd go overboard, but I would monitor his computer and phone and check them from time to time. 

Betrayers are addicts and eventually the old itch comes back.


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## Laila8

Ironman, now I'm even more confused. I have two different camps telling me things. The first camp, like you, says I'm overreacting and that I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill and I need to let this go. The second camp (thatbpguy's recent post and many others here) say my H has poor character and he is not to be trusted. What am I supposed to think? I am so confused. Some days I wake up and am happy and it's not on my mind at all. Other days I wake up sad and depressed and I feel like he did it once, and he will do it again to me.


----------



## thatbpguy

Laila619 said:


> Ironman, now I'm even more confused. I have two different camps telling me things. The first camp, like you, says I'm overreacting and that I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill and I need to let this go. The second camp (thatbpguy's recent post and many others here) say my H has poor character and he is not to be trusted. What am I supposed to think? I am so confused. Some days I wake up and am happy and it's not on my mind at all. Other days I wake up sad and depressed and I feel like he did it once, and he will do it again to me.


Lila, let me ask you a few questions.

1) Would or could you have hooked up with an old flame for sex while dating in an exclusive relationship as he did? 

2) If so, would you expect him to just shrug it off and say, "OK, whatever".

3) What does it say to you that he did this about the respect he has for you as a person?

4) What would prevent him for doing so again? What if they meet on fb?

I hope you have poured your heart out to him about this and been honest. I am not suggesting throwing him out, but this is a very callous thing and your pain is very real. It needs to be dealt with constructively. Your feelings on this cannot be ignored.


----------



## ironman

Laila619 said:


> Ironman, now I'm even more confused. I have two different camps telling me things. The first camp, like you, says I'm overreacting and that I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill and I need to let this go. The second camp (thatbpguy's recent post and many others here) say my H has poor character and he is not to be trusted. What am I supposed to think? I am so confused. Some days I wake up and am happy and it's not on my mind at all. Other days I wake up sad and depressed and I feel like he did it once, and he will do it again to me.


Laila, take all these "forum posts" with a grain of salt ... and that includes mine. It is your life. You're going to read conflicting ideas about what you should do .. it's up to you and you alone however.

Let me put this a different way. If everyone in the world were punished for every mistake they ever made in the past and their partners' micro-managed and went to extreme measures over each of those mistakes .. then NOBODY would ever get or remain married. Nobody is perfect. Relationships are not perfect regardless of what you see in the movies. Life is full of grays .. not black and white.

So he was selfish at a time before he was officially committed to you and says he thought you were detaching from him at the time ... I would definitely chalk this up as one of those "gray" areas.

But what has happened since then? He chose you! He proposed to you! He married you! He had children and raised them well with you! He's been a loving husband to you! When you step back and look at the big picture, you can't help but see that you're risking losing an awful lot over something that in my opinion is almost insignificant. The hardcore, wannabe brutal punishment-types of these forums may disagree with me .. but that's my opinion.

Life is too short to hold people to unrealistic, perfect standards. You're not perfect, I'm not perfect and you're husband isn't either.

For the love of God and your family ... Let it Go.


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## thatbpguy

Tough choice- forget about it or deal with it.

To me, dealing with it constructively will be my choice. Then it can be properly handled rather than being swept under the rug.


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## JustAnotherMan

Laila, I truly understand the pain. I understand that what your boyfriend at the time did was wrong. 

You feel hurt and betrayed. He explained that during that time when YOU decided to stop having sex with him until you were married he was afraid you were pulling back from him. HE felt you were withdrawing from the relationship. HE made a mistake and regrets it. He chose to not tell you thinking he would spare you the pain. It worked for a long time.

According to your posts he has been a model husband since you were married.

You need to accept his explainations and his admitting to having made a mistake or you have to condemn his character and go on living life with a weak husband. 

You have had this information for a while now and I do not sense any bit of forgiveness in your posts. 

Do not hold this over his head for the rest of his life, it will destroy both of you emotionally. Either forgive him and the 2 of you work on your marriage or file for divorce and let both of you move on.


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## ironman

thatbpguy said:


> Tough choice- forget about it or deal with it.
> 
> To me, dealing with it constructively will be my choice. Then it can be properly handled rather than being swept under the rug.



Yes tbguy, but the guy has already confessed ... and been a loyal, loving husband the entire marriage. What more would you have the guy do? 

Keep in mind that *this all happened before they were even engaged* after she started withholding sex from him. If I put myself in his shoes, I can see how he might have become confused by that (not blaming her), just saying it might have been a confusing time in their lives. There was no official commitment yet.

It just seems to me that everyone wants to crucify this guy for breaking a commitment that he hadn't made yet. At this point, after having confessed ... once again putting myself in his shoes, if she continued to not let it go ... I'm sure I would start to grow resentful of her.

And that is a shame. I'm reading all this advice in this thread that advocate treating this as if he cheated during marriage and it is utter non-sense. If she follows that advice she is going to end-up poisoning her own marriage. It seems like it's already begun based on what she's told us so far. What a waste that would be. It's up to her to be the grown-up and take the high road.

Good luck Laila. I hope you don't ruin your family's lives over a silly forum.


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## Squeakr

I wish I could give advice, but I am not in any position to. I would say that it does speak to his character. The situation you describe is almost mirror to my wife's and mine, except that she is the one that has cheated (I found out it is more than once). In my case, it was after 11 years of marriage that she started cheating and was hiding it for 3 years before I found out. We are trying to R and will be married for 15 years this fall.

I confronted 1 year ago and she hasn't cheated since (actually hadn't had PA for 8 months prior to that but was still in EA), but the kicker is that I found out that she had cheated on me prior to marriage as well (and with the person she was having the most recent affairs with). Had I have known prior to marriage, I may not have had to go through this pain now. I thought the marriage was fine (at times even great), and the issues were just normal daily living issues. I was wrong. So, I do agree that it speaks to one's character when they are hiding these things. It may just be a matter of time. 

I know my case is somewhat unique (don't we all say that??), but I think it does reveal something about the person and what they are capable of and willing to do to hide things. You have to decide if you can live with it or it is a deal breaker? Ask yourself the question if this is all he hides, if so then consider yourself lucky and just talk it out and move on with your marriage, if not then you have some hard thinking to do.

Food for thought, when I talked to my wife about the premarital betrayal, she said it wasn't cheating in her mind as we weren't married and committed (and I could concede to that viewpoint). However when talking about her "true" loves in life, she talks about how the guy who took her virginity is her first love and she still thinks about him (red flag, but she hasn't cheated with him or even been in contact), but she says that when they were going steady in high school, he cheated on her with another girl and that devastated her. I asked her how that was cheating (since they weren't married or committed, the things she told me) and what she did before we were married was not? She looked lost and then agreed that she had to consider it cheating as that is how she viewed the other. 

Sorry to thread jack and create this book, but you need to find out his side of this and what he thinks. If he views things the same way as my wife, then there is your answer and something that needs to be addressed.


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## Suspecting

ironman and co. are basically trying to tell you that it's ok to cheat in an exclusive relationship if you're not engaged or married yet... I disagree. To me, an exclusive relationship is no different from a marriage other than legal aspects. In fact in many countries a couple in a relationship and living together are considered being in a common-law marriage, which is not much different from a marriage these days.

Laila619, only you know if you can let this go no matter what we say. The fact that you are posting here tells me that you don't think it was "just a mistake".


----------



## ironman

Squeakr,

I sorry to read your story .. nobody deserves that. But at the same time I think it's wrong to compare your story to Laila's. It's comparing apples and oranges.

Men and women tend to cheat for VERY different reasons. There are exceptions but in my experience the following general rule seems to hold true:

Women cheat once they have fallen out of love and are looking for passion, etc, etc. Men tend to be simply seeking more sex with no attachments, etc, etc.

If Laila's husband is like most guys, he was simply looking for some sex (not a long-term commitment). Good luck finding a young, uncommitted, heterosexual guy who will turn down sex with no attachments ... to say it's unrealistic would be the understatement of the millennium.

How can it be said he has "flawed" character if he wasn't even engaged yet? This is just another example of holding someone to an unrealistic, standard of perfection.

Anyway, I've said my peace. It's Laila's life. I hope she has the wisdom to do the right thing .. w/e that may be for her.


----------



## Laila8

ironman said:


> If Laila's husband is like most guys, he was simply looking for some sex (not a long-term commitment). Good luck finding a young, uncommitted, heterosexual guy who will turn down sex with no attachments ... to say it's unrealistic would be the understatement of the millennium.


Well, I do think there are some guys out there who would turn it down out of loyalty to the person they were dating and supposedly in love with. Maybe that's just me being naive though, I don't know.  Reading this forum has made me realize that there are some very upstanding, nice guys out there and I know that not all men cheat. Also, if he wanted sex, he could have simply asked me or proposed to me as I really wanted that commitment to feel comfortable having regular sex with him.


----------



## ironman

Suspecting said:


> ironman and co. are basically trying to tell you that it's ok to cheat in an exclusive relationship if you're not engaged or married yet... I disagree. To me, an exclusive relationship is no different from a marriage other than legal aspects. In fact in many countries a couple in a relationship and living together are considered being in a common-law marriage, which is not much different from a marriage these days.
> 
> Laila619, only you know if you can let this go no matter what we say. The fact that you are posting here tells me that you don't think it was "just a mistake".


... and Suspecting and co. are trying to project their pain onto you Laila. I've been around these forums long enough to know that some (not all) posters are for destroying the relationship no matter what. In fact, it seems some of them "get off" on doing this. Sad but true.

In the end he made a mistake, confessed to it, and has walked the line ever since. Not perfect, but definitely acceptable. There is no "Mr. Perfect" out there. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool.


----------



## Squeakr

Ironman,
Thanks. I just say it compares as the ages and story fit mine to a tee up to the point she is at today (late bloomer, ages, marriage considered perfect, kids, etc). I find that generally you are correct in reasons for cheating by the sexes, but with men that are "late bloomers" sex isn't generally as much of an issue as the feelings involved with the sex as well. Yes they want sex, but they waited so long for a reason as well.
As to the "flawed" character trait I am referring to the lies and ability to cover and hide. He hid it for all of the years and continues to hide and deny things when asked (if I read the post correctly and didn't add my own spin to it). This is the character flaw I am referring to. If it was nothing and there was no commitment to be broken then why lie and cover up about it. Just let it all out and be done with it and move on. If he is covering up because he views it as cheating (we haven't even heard what he thinks it was, as that matter most and not what we think), then this shows the propensity to do these things. My wife told me (and I read it on TAM as well) that once the lines are crossed, they become blurred and that much easier to cross again.

I agree it is her decision and w/e the outcome I wish her well and hope the best for her family.


----------



## Suspecting

I think both men and women cheat for the exact same reason: because they want to. I've known lots of women who were only looking for sex. On this forum there's a lot of stories where the sex was the main motive for the wife's affair. In fact I think most stories are like that. Lots of BS' say they did things with OM they never did with their husband. That has nothing to do with emotions.


----------



## thatbpguy

ironman said:


> Yes tbguy, but the guy has already confessed ... and been a loyal, loving husband the entire marriage. What more would you have the guy do?


Here are my thoughts....

I agree with the poster that she is getting half truths. Now, she may have to just live with that as much as it sucks. But to me these half truths tells me a lot of negative things about trust and faithfulness. These are real issues and should be dealt with. Why? Because they are causing pain. Real pain. 

I mean, let's say you are right and aside from the lies he continues to tell about what really happened he has been true and faithful. You say that as a result things should be swept under the rug, forgive and forget and hope his lies don’t resurface over other things. I get that. What’s done is done, you’re never getting the truth, so shy beat everyone up over it and move forward in the hopes he has changed his ways. In fact, I suppose I can even support that as a positive way of handling things- sort of. However, if she is still haunted by the lies and has trust issues, why not deal with them? Why not pull back the rug and put the issue on the table and ask him to help her so she can move past this and better their relationship? Or maybe she needs some counseling on how to deal with a husband who was “unfaithful” (albeit prior to the marriage itself), continues to lie about it but has since appeared to be pretty honest and above board. She needs coping skills and that is one way to get them.

For me, I don’t invalidate her anguish. Her issue is very real and it seems healthy to take the bull by the horns. I just don’t see poo-pooing the whole thing. Maybe I’m making too much of this, but when someone is hurting over a very real issue I’m just not a rug sweeper. 

OK, enough said on this subject. But whatever you do, work with your husband and not against him. It seems like he is trying now and that counts for something.


----------



## Suspecting

ironman said:


> ... and Suspecting and co. are trying to project their pain onto you Laila. I've been around these forums long enough to know that some (not all) posters are for destroying the relationship no matter what. In fact, it seems some of them "get off" on doing this. Sad but true.
> 
> In the end he made a mistake, confessed to it, and has walked the line ever since. Not perfect, but definitely acceptable. There is no "Mr. Perfect" out there. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool.


What pain are you talking about? Just FYI I'm not BS nor WS and I'm not telling the OP to divorce. I'm just expressing my opinion on the matter.

Not "Mr. Perfect" but "Mr. Acceptable" would have told her *before *proposing and not hid it several years.

I think Squeakr's post is excellent and he has a good point. OP's husband might be perfect now but what about five or ten years from now on? He definitely has the "cheater gene" and OP you should not ignore this even if you decide to forgive and forgot this incident. I think in the end the question is do/can you trust your husband?


----------



## ironman

Suspecting said:


> What pain are you talking about? Just FYI I'm not BS nor WS and I'm not telling the OP to divorce. I'm just expressing my opinion on the matter.
> 
> Not "Mr. Perfect" but "Mr. Acceptable" would have told her *before *proposing and not hid it several years.
> 
> I think Squeakr's post is excellent and he has a good point. OP's husband might be perfect now but what about five or ten years from now on? He definitely has the "cheater gene" and OP you should not ignore this even if you decide to forgive and forgot this incident. I think in the end the question is do/can you trust your husband?


Like I said, good luck to all you people seeking "Mr" or "Mrs" "Perfect" out there. Let me know how that works out for all of you.

PS: Lmao, "cheater gene" .. lol, seriously??? Maybe we can start dna screening kids at birth for those who have it and avoid future problems by indicating if they have it on people's driver's licenses or ss cards, lol.


----------



## thatbpguy

ironman said:


> Like I said, good luck to all you people seeking "Mr" or "Mrs" "Perfect" out there. Let me know how that works out for all of you.


There is no perfect person, but why you condone betraying and lying about it in a case like this is a mystery. 



ironman said:


> PS: Lmao, "cheater gene" .. lol, seriously??? Maybe we can start dna screening kids at birth for those who have it and avoid future problems by indicating if they have it on people's driver's licenses or ss cards, lol.


Betraying is an addiction. The traits of a betrayer are addictive traits. That's also why it is natural to lie and deny as well as easier to betray, lie and decieve the second time, easier yet the third...

You may find this all a funny joke, but to those betrayed is really isn't.


----------



## ironman

thatbpguy said:


> There is no perfect person, but why you condone betraying and lying about it in a case like this is a mystery.
> 
> Betraying is an addiction. The traits of a betrayer are addictive traits. That's also why it is natural to lie and deny as well as easier to betray, lie and decieve the second time, easier yet the third...
> 
> You may find this all a funny joke, but to those betrayed is really isn't.


Oh tbguy, come down off the high-horse, man. I don't think any these situations are a "funny joke" as you put it. You got to admit the concept of a "cheater gene" is humorous ... that is what I was poking fun at .. not anybody's situation. Sheesh.

PS: Laila good luck to you. I'm done with this thread as I've advised the best I can I don't feel I'm adding anything else of value anymore. I'm having to respond to a "gang of critics" at this point ... which is of no value to you. Take care.


----------



## Suspecting

ironman said:


> Like I said, good luck to all you people seeking "Mr" or "Mrs" "Perfect" out there. Let me know how that works out for all of you.
> 
> PS: Lmao, "cheater gene" .. lol, seriously??? Maybe we can start dna screening kids at birth for those who have it and avoid future problems by indicating if they have it on people's driver's licenses or ss cards, lol.


I think it's only a decent act to be truthful. Especially before proposing to someone. No need to be perfect.

PS: OOPS, seems I'm not totally off-base here with the gene thing: Scientists Discover Gene Responsible for Cheating and Promiscuous Sex Habits - ABC News


----------



## Jellybeans

Laila, to answer your question, it would bother anyone (unless they had a heart made of teflon).

A better question is: why is he keeping his text conversations w/ her from five years ago? That is weird.


----------



## lisab0105

jnj express said:


> Its out in the open---and should be done and over with---but that's on you
> 
> You were in a committed relationship---not engaged---not really a grey area, but he did what he did------
> 
> You can either get over it---or you can let it make you, and the whole family miserable
> 
> He has not strayed, in any way shape or form since he gave you a ring---he loves you, and the kids, he takes care of you, he honors his vows---no matter what, this was still prior to you getting a ring---so again you can let it grind on you, and in so doing cause problems for the mge---or you can let it go
> 
> But do make sure of this---if you keep bringing this up, and do drive a wedge into the mge-----and if somehow---the mge were to fall apart---there aren't a lot of great choices for male companionship out there, as you grow older---and there sure as he*l ain't gonna be another of your H---out there, so think hard about how far you really wanna push this
> 
> If you read most of my posts---I go after cheaters hard---but this situation is not that way---and what you are allowing yourself to do, is to very possibly ruin a good working viable mge


Who gives a damn if there wasn't a ring!? And it isn't ON HER. It is on HIM. Period!!! 

He tainted their relationship. He married her based on lies. Her job isn't to get over it. Her job is to heal and his is to fix his f'ck up!


----------



## lisab0105

ironman said:


> Laila, I'm starting to believe you enjoy drama in your life. According to you, you have a loving family and what you described as a model husband (except for this prior blemish). Do you realize how rare that is? Approximately 50% divorce rate in the U.S. Do you want to be another statistic because of this incident he has already fessed up to? Not to mention that it happened before you were even engaged?
> 
> I also am usually the first to call for divorce over infidelity, but your case seems like it would be such a foolish waste of a good marriage. Don't over-dramatize this by letting the negative-nannies cheer you on. I'm actually starting to feel a bit sorry for you because you seem to be headed down a path of self-destruction ... and it's totally unnecessary.
> 
> 
> PS: And, ummmm ... sorry dear, but some guys do masturbate with condoms.


WOW...I have no words except no offense...but that is total bullsh*t. A relationship doesn't start when the ring is there. The relationship starts when both agree to be with one another monogamously. He is a proven cheater and a liar. He married her under false pretenses. He isn't a model husband. I can't believe some of you are actually encouraging her to sweep this under the rug. Absolutely vile.


----------



## Laila8

At this point I am too numb and it doesn't even surprise me, but if it makes a difference, he did end up confessing to the rest of it. He admitted that all the missing condoms were used with her, so obviously this was NOT a one time thing. Turns out it was more like a one month long fling, with multiple times. He would go to her house during the week to have sex when I was busy, and happily date me on weekends, all while saying he loved me, I made him so happy, etc. When I pull up old e-mails and love letters he sent me during this time period, it's astounding how he sounded totally normal and happy, and he was as mushy and sweet to me as ever. Nauseating.


----------



## lisab0105

Laila619 said:


> At this point I am too numb and it doesn't even surprise me, but if it makes a difference, he did end up confessing to the rest of it. He admitted that all the missing condoms were used with her, so obviously this was NOT a one time thing. Turns out it was more like a one month long fling, with multiple times. He would go to her house during the week to have sex when I was busy, and happily date me on weekends, all while saying he loved me, I made him so happy, etc. When I pull up old e-mails and love letters he sent me during this time period, it's astounding how he sounded totally normal and happy, and he was as mushy and sweet to me as ever. Nauseating.


I am sorry Laila. I know exactly how you feel. Just because you weren't even engaged yet doesn't matter. You believed one thing about your relationship and how he felt about you only to have him rip that out from underneath you. 

Your husband did a horrible horrible thing. Hold him accountable. No matter what, you let him know what he did was inexcusable.


----------



## Laila8

lisab0105 said:


> I am sorry Laila. I know exactly how you feel. Just because you weren't even engaged yet doesn't matter. You believed one thing about your relationship and how he felt about you only to have him rip that out from underneath you.
> 
> Your husband did a horrible horrible thing. Hold him accountable. No matter what, you let him know what he did was inexcusable.


Thanks Lisa. Oh he definitely knows I find what he did inexcusable. I have been ranting at him all weekend and I think he is really regretting ever confessing.


----------



## Squeakr

Laila619 said:


> Thanks Lisa. Oh he definitely knows I find what he did inexcusable. I have been ranting at him all weekend and I think he is really regretting ever confessing.


Sorry for what you are going through. This is the character flaw I was referring to - lying, covering up, and TTing. He is "regretting ever confessing", doesn't sound like he is regretting doing the actions just revealing it (just curious if he viewed it as cheating like you did)? I would suggest counseling so that you two can learn to communicate better and possibly stop this from ever occurring again in the future and actually have the happy marriage you so desire and want and thought the past was built upon.


----------



## lisab0105

Laila619 said:


> Thanks Lisa. Oh he definitely knows I find what he did inexcusable. I have been ranting at him all weekend and I think he is really regretting ever confessing.


Doesn't that just f'cking suck?! He regrets confessing. So does mine. My guy and I were talking about what he did and he didn't say if I could change anything, I would take it back. No, he said if he could change anything, he wouldn't of ever told me. I totally lost sh*t. So, I don't blame you a single bit. If his regrets are only that he confessed...that means he thinks fondly of his time with her. It doesn't matter that he "chose" you...what matters is that you weren't worth keeping his word. You weren't worth dogging her. 

Don't rug sweep this. Just because he has been good since marriage, doesn't mean anything.


----------



## JustAnotherMan

OK...he has admitted his guilt. What's your pleasure Liala; the gallows, firing squad, maybe a crucifiction. 

He screwed up, he admitted it, it hurts. I see absolutely no wiggle from you on the idea of how to get past and forgive.

Serve him divorce papers so you can move on to finding that perfect man. 

Oh and he will move on to a more compassionate, loving woman.


----------



## Squeakr

JustAnotherMan said:


> OK...he has admitted his guilt. What's your pleasure Liala; the gallows, firing squad, maybe a crucifiction.
> 
> He screwed up, he admitted it, it hurts. I see absolutely no wiggle from you on the idea of how to get past and forgive.
> 
> Serve him divorce papers so you can move on to finding that perfect man.
> 
> Oh and he will move on to a more compassionate, loving woman.


Wow. All I can say is wow. I hope that you feel better for bashing on her. Just because she is not willing to accept his lies does not make her uncompassionate or unloving. You should take your own advice and just move on instead of bashing someone you know absolutely nothing about to cause you to make such heinous judgments against.


----------



## lisab0105

JustAnotherMan said:


> OK...he has admitted his guilt. What's your pleasure Liala; the gallows, firing squad, maybe a crucifiction.
> 
> He screwed up, he admitted it, it hurts. I see absolutely no wiggle from you on the idea of how to get past and forgive.
> 
> Serve him divorce papers so you can move on to finding that perfect man.
> 
> *Oh and he will move on to a more compassionate, loving woman.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> :wtf::banghead::bsflag:
> 
> If Laila was a guy, talking about the same thing happening to him, 10 to 1 people (especially the TAM men) would say to_ "get the children's paternity tested (if there were children involved). If she lied about what she did before marriage, she surely lied after marriage."_ I don't for a second believe any one would tell "him" to sweep this under the rug.
> 
> But Laila is a woman and through the course of her relationship, she had a change of heart about sex before marriage. He AGREED to it. He gave no indication that he was going to be tempted to screw around on her. He acted like all was fine. He loved her, blah blah blah.
> 
> Turns out, he was a lying pig. He just confessed the real truth to her. That doesn't speak of a man who has changed. Who is sorry. That certainly doesn't speak of a man who deserves a woman that is "compassionate and loving". He had that and he threw her away for a skank who would screw him for a month.
> 
> Laila has done nothing wrong. Laila is reeling, and the attitude of some of you that she should just sweep this under and be thankful for what she has NOW makes me want to throw-up. You all actually sound like my cheating fiancé. "But I love you NOW, I am faithful NOW."
> 
> Laila just learned her relationship, her marriage and her husband are all lies.


----------



## thatbpguy

JustAnotherMan said:


> OK...he has admitted his guilt. What's your pleasure Liala; the gallows, firing squad, maybe a crucifiction.
> 
> He screwed up, he admitted it, it hurts. I see absolutely no wiggle from you on the idea of how to get past and forgive.
> 
> Serve him divorce papers so you can move on to finding that perfect man.
> 
> Oh and he will move on to a more compassionate, loving woman.


Not only your post out right uncalled for and cruel, but shows a lack of class in a personal way.

You would do the community here a favor if you left and never came back.


----------



## thatbpguy

Laila619 said:


> At this point I am too numb and it doesn't even surprise me, but if it makes a difference, he did end up confessing to the rest of it. He admitted that all the missing condoms were used with her, so obviously this was NOT a one time thing. Turns out it was more like a one month long fling, with multiple times. He would go to her house during the week to have sex when I was busy, and happily date me on weekends, all while saying he loved me, I made him so happy, etc. When I pull up old e-mails and love letters he sent me during this time period, it's astounding how he sounded totally normal and happy, and he was as mushy and sweet to me as ever. Nauseating.


After all this time he ends up confessing.

One the one hand I can understand he didn't want to hurt you any more than he already had. But when he knew the jig was up he should have told you. As already posted, this is a major character flaw. And it speaks to trust as well. 

I hope the best for you moving forward. I really do. Stay in touch with us.


----------



## Laila8

JustAnotherMan said:


> OK...he has admitted his guilt. What's your pleasure Liala; the gallows, firing squad, maybe a crucifiction.
> 
> He screwed up, he admitted it, it hurts. I see absolutely no wiggle from you on the idea of how to get past and forgive.
> 
> Serve him divorce papers so you can move on to finding that perfect man.
> 
> *Oh and he will move on to a more compassionate, loving woman.*


LOL. With the way I'm feeling, he's welcome to. Heck, maybe the new woman will be so 'compassionate' she'll even encourage him to have affairs. :rofl:

As for being able to forgive and get past, I just found out about all this stuff. I'm not able to get past it just yet.


----------



## Theseus

Catherine602 said:


> Deception of any type is devestating. Your reaction should be nuclear. The only leverage you have is to be willing to leave if he does not see his transgression as serious and atone.


"Going nuclear" has got to be the worst possible advice for this situation. 



> The next time he is tempted, he will have to weigh the real possibility of losing his family against having a few orgasms. only you can set up that consideration in his mind.


He didn't have a family at that time.



> This is the only way to handle a selfish entitled man.


I sense some serious projection here. Not helpful.


----------



## Laila8

I don't expect perfection from a mate. Lord knows I'm not perfect. I just expected a guy who would be faithful since the moment we became a couple. I don't think this is too much to ask. Obviously I don't have that. Will I forgive him and stay with him? Probably. Does it hurt and sting? Very much. I don't really care if we were married at the time or not. Sorry for being blunt, but I wasn't out riding some other guy's d*ck while dating him.


----------



## Laila8

thatbpguy said:


> After all this time he ends up confessing.
> 
> One the one hand I can understand he didn't want to hurt you any more than he already had. But when he knew the jig was up he should have told you. As already posted, this is a major character flaw. And it speaks to trust as well.
> 
> I hope the best for you moving forward. I really do. Stay in touch with us.


Thank you, thatbpguy.


----------



## Theseus

Laila619 said:


> LOL. With the way I'm feeling, he's welcome to. Heck, maybe the new woman will be so 'compassionate' she'll even encourage him to have affairs.



Good gravy, he was a 30 year old who had just lost his virginity, making up for lost time (I lost mine at 17 and it felt like I had waited ridiculously long), and his long-time crush came on to him. 99.99% would have done the same thing he did, especially when he was thinking he had to "catch up" since he wasn't YOUR first lover.

Cut him some slack on something that's in the past. It doesn't have to affect you now unless you let it.


----------



## Squeakr

Theseus said:


> Good gravy, he was a 30 year old who had just lost his virginity, making up for lost time (I lost mine at 17 and it felt like I had waited ridiculously long), and his long-time crush came on to him. 99.99% would have done the same thing he did, especially when he was thinking he had to "catch up" since he wasn't YOUR first lover.
> 
> Cut him some slack on something that's in the past. It doesn't have to affect you now unless you let it.


Not all guys view sex with just anyone as a great thing. Also it is not the cheating that is the issue, but the lying and covering up. This type of behaviour is unacceptable and is the reason that the pain is so strong. If it was "nothing" like you describe it as, then why lie and cover up for all of these years (heck why even keep the texts for the last almost 5 years?).

Guess that makes me in the 0.01% I could use some company over here (and believe me I had opportunities when I was overseas in the military, but remained faithful none the less).


----------



## Laila8

Theseus said:


> Good gravy, he was a 30 year old who had just lost his virginity, making up for lost time (I lost mine at 17 and it felt like I had waited ridiculously long), and his long-time crush came on to him. *99.99% would have done the same thing he did*, especially when he was thinking he had to "catch up" since he wasn't YOUR first lover.


You really think so, Theseus? I just don't know. I think there are guys who would have told her off, or at the very least just kind of blew her off. I've had guys hit on me when I wasn't single, and I just ignored them. I genuinely had no desire because I was in love. I think he should have tried to get me to sleep with him again if he was that horny and tempted.


----------



## Laila8

Squeakr said:


> Not all guys view sex with just anyone as a great thing. Also it is not the cheating that is the issue, but the lying and covering up. This type of behaviour is unacceptable and is the reason that the pain is so strong. If it was "nothing" like you describe it as, then why lie and cover up for all of these years (heck why even keep the texts for the last almost 5 years?0.


Yep, he lied and denied for quite a bit. Obviously he didn't see it as nothing, and he knew I would be mad so that tells me he knew it was wrong.


----------



## thatbpguy

Theseus said:


> 99.99% would have done the same thing he did...


Now there's a load of absolute crap.

Actually, 99.9% of real men would not have done that. You would have, I get that.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Laila619 said:


> I don't expect perfection from a mate. Lord knows I'm not perfect. I just expected a guy who would be faithful since the moment we became a couple. I don't think this is too much to ask. Obviously I don't have that. Will I forgive him and stay with him? Probably. Does it hurt and sting? Very much. I don't really care if we were married at the time or not. Sorry for being blunt, but I wasn't out riding some other guy's d*ck while dating him.


I'm confident you are going to get through this, without losing part of yourself or swallowing pain that will eat away at you slowly over time. 

My gut tells me that, now that the truth has been unearthed (at least partly so), your husband has to learn what a dangerous and hurtful act it was to have the hidden relationship, and to keep the truth from you for so long, and to trickle truth you now; he needs to learn what is required to make you feel loved and comfortable in any future you have together. It seems to me that, at a minimum, if he is going to learn these things, you will have to not rug sweep; and, ultimately you will have to learn how best to hold him accountable for learning these lessons, and walking a transparent and honorable path.

I'm confident you will be able to do this with grace, without recklessly being punitive, and come out strong and with self-respect, and a bright future.


----------



## lisab0105

Theseus said:


> Good gravy, he was a 30 year old who had just lost his virginity, making up for lost time (I lost mine at 17 and it felt like I had waited ridiculously long), and his long-time crush came on to him. 99.99% would have done the same thing he did, especially when he was thinking he had to "catch up" since he wasn't YOUR first lover.
> 
> Cut him some slack on something that's in the past. It doesn't have to affect you now unless you let it.


At the risk of getting banned....this is some straight up bullsh*t right here. If you are really speaking for 99.99% of the men out there...then to them I say "F"ck you all you cheating, lying piece of sh*t weak @ss m"ckers." 

If those are the men Laila and other women like us have to look forward too if we ever leave our current cheating spouses, I'll happily stay celebate for the rest of my life. 

That is the weakest bunch of crap I have ever read.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Laila619 said:


> Thanks Lisa. Oh he definitely knows I find what he did inexcusable. I have been ranting at him all weekend and I think he is really regretting ever confessing.


So what is your plan? You don't have to answer that, but I encourage you to figure out what you want out of this. Take your time, because your emotions will change. I have no idea if he is truly the monster others are making him out to be, but think about what things he could do to help you heal. Consider kicking him out for a while to show how serious this is. 

I will note that it is better to divorce than to continue in a one foot out the door marriage that some have recommended. That is not the example you want to set for your kids. Besides, you deserve better.

Some books that might help you are Surviving an Affair and Not Just Friends.


----------



## Laila8

Catherine602 said:


> Really, he regrets confessing and not hurting you? Not because he was deceptive in his professions of love? Not because he humiliated you?
> 
> His actions speak for him. All the good man, loving husband persona is just that, a mask.
> 
> He hid his true nature from you, this is the man you married. Now you have to decide what to do with him. With his attitude he will do it again, maybe when he hits 40 and thinks he wants something new.
> 
> All the while, he can enjoy the warmth of a home, a wife who cooks, cleans up after him, has his kids, and is a convient sex partner.


I'm not saying he said he regrets telling me. It's just the vibe I get, because I have been putting him through the ringer and ranting at him all weekend. I'm sure he's not thrilled with that. He's been trying to answer all my questions, but I sometimes sense he is getting a bit exasperated. I'm assuming he doesn't understand why I would want to hear all the gory details. If the roles were reversed, I do not think he would want to know.

As for cooking and cleaning up after him, heck no! He does most of the cooking and laundry in our marriage. He has always been good about being an equal partner. I wonder if he is so willing to do all this stuff out of guilt?


----------



## Squeakr

Laila619 said:


> As for cooking and cleaning up after him, heck no! He does most of the cooking and laundry in our marriage. He has always been good about being an equal partner. I wonder if he is so willing to do all this stuff out of guilt?


Except for the infidelity post marriage and the spouse performing those, your marriage sounds exactly like mine. I did most of the cooking and cleaning as well.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Laila619 said:


> I'm not saying he said he regrets telling me. It's just the vibe I get, because I have been putting him through the ringer and ranting at him all weekend. I'm sure he's not thrilled with that. He's been trying to answer all my questions, but I sometimes sense he is getting a bit exasperated. I'm assuming he doesn't understand why I would want to hear all the gory details. If the roles were reversed, I do not think he would want to know.


Consider that part of it is due to you being at different points in the affair time-line. For you, this is fresh information that has shocked your system. To him, it may be something from long ago that he has had plenty of time to process. So while he may intellectually understand why you are asking all these questions, he may on another level be thinking this is all ancient news. 

Does not make it right, but it may help you understand and communicate to him why you need this.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Laila619 said:


> As for cooking and cleaning up after him, heck no! He does most of the cooking and laundry in our marriage. He has always been good about being an equal partner. I wonder if he is so willing to do all this stuff out of guilt?


I would point that out to him. Make it clear that you now doubt most everything in your marriage. What you used to think was him being a great husband you now wonder if it was only guilt.

It may help get across to him the severity of what you are feeling.


----------



## PieceOfSky

lisab0105 said:


> If you are really speaking for 99.99% of the men out there...


In case there is any doubt, no one can speak for the 99.99%! You have something better to look forward to.

And as far as deception goes, it's not a guy thing, it's a cheater thing.


----------



## soccermom2three

There is an active thread right now in this same forum where the man was cheated on by his wife before they were married. The differences in the posts and attitude toward the OP on that thread and this thread are telling. Double standard, imho.


----------



## lisab0105

soccermom2three said:


> There is an active thread right now in this same forum where the man was cheated on by his wife before they were married. The differences in the posts and attitude toward the OP on that thread and this thread are telling. Double standard, imho.


Thank You!!!! 

Total BS


----------



## Squeakr

lisab0105 said:


> Thank You!!!!
> 
> Total BS


Unfortunately when it comes to the sexes there is always going to be a double standard. The same way that when a women cheats the majority claim it is because the man did something wrong and this requires him to man up to save his marriage. If he wasn't such a beta this wouldn't have happened as women "only" stray when they don't feel the love. Then when the man strays it is just because he wants something new and is not necessarily the fault of the woman's in any real way. I say cheaters are cheaters no matter if it is man or woman and I don't take sides based on that. 
The fact that we can automatically assume something based upon the sex of the offender shows the double standard. The court systems have made this standard the norm as no matter whom is at fault generally the mother is the better option for custody and gets the lion's share in the divorces. I for one would like to see these standards abolished.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Theseus

lisab0105 said:


> At the risk of getting banned....this is some straight up bullsh*t right here. If you are really speaking for 99.99% of the men out there...then to them I say "F"ck you all you cheating, lying piece of sh*t weak @ss m"ckers."
> 
> If those are the men Laila and other women like us have to look forward too if we ever leave our current cheating spouses, I'll happily stay celebate for the rest of my life.



But he wasn't a "cheating spouse". Lisa, maybe you should stop hyperventilating for a second and actually read the original post on this thread.


----------



## Laila8

Guys, I would like to hear your answer to this: if you were dating, in love with a woman, and someone else contacted you for sex, would you do it? I feel like my H was vulnerable to her because he didn't really love me, or at least he wasn't happy with me.


----------



## lisab0105

Theseus said:


> But he wasn't a "cheating spouse". Lisa, maybe you should stop hyperventilating for a second and actually read the original post on this thread.


So it is only cheating if they are married? F'ck that. They were in a relationship. That is all you need it to be in order for it to be cheating.


----------



## aug

Laila619 said:


> Guys, I would like to hear your answer to this: if you were dating, in love with a woman, and someone else contacted you for sex, would you do it? I feel like my H was vulnerable to her because he didn't really love me, or at least he wasn't happy with me.


If I was dating the woman I love, I would not do it.

I would, however, do it if I consider the dating was casual and if:
1. I consider the other woman to be hotter,
2. I think there was a chance to move "up",
3. the other woman was rich,
4. I at the time didnt care about my values or self-respect, or
5. I can't overcome the lust.


----------



## workindad

OP- find a counselor to discuss this with. Ultimately, only you can decide if this is worth throwing your marriage away or moving forward with your family life. 

I do get that your are upset and feel deceived. I'm guessing that you would have broken up with him at the time had you known the truth and that option was removed from you by deceit. 

Will he go to counseling with you to work on the issue? 

At the end of the day, it doesn't much matter how I see it. It does matter how you see it and he should be sensitive to that.



Good luck
WD


----------



## Tryingtobreath

Cheating before the marriage is still cheating. 

Had I known my ex wife was involved in her affair when she was (prior to engagement and thru our one year of marriage) I never would've married her. It was absolutely material as to whether I would've stayed. 

To say otherwise is pure banality.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## somethingelse

I can't believe the arguments being made by some..trying to justify cheating prior to marriage due to H being a virgin previously. ? You're kidding right? I hope so..

This is all very simple. A four year old could wrap their head around this... He cheated. Wrong thing to do. OP withheld sex for a month before the wedding? (was it a month OP?). H didn't have to accept that. He didn't have to say it was ok. But he did. Therefore, he accepted it, then decided to go behind her back and fool around. Not fair. That's just plain lying and cheating right there. 

I got cheated on right before my wedding without knowing. And after too. I don't accept people telling me that when I was engaged to my H, he was entitled to cheat, or it's not a big deal because we weren't married yet. What a load!


----------



## PieceOfSky

Laila619 said:


> Guys, I would like to hear your answer to this: if you were dating, in love with a woman, and someone else contacted you for sex, would you do it? I feel like my H was vulnerable to her because he didn't really love me, or at least he wasn't happy with me.


If I was in love with the woman I was dating, then no, I wouldn't have sex with someone else; if it was that tempting, then I hope I'd be man enough to be honest with my love, and officially reset expectations. But, honestly, I have never been in that situation - so, who knows?

I don't know if I'm a fair data point to consider. I was a virgin when I met my wife, and had dated very little, and have been faithful. Sex was (and is) a bigger deal for me than, I think, many of my peers. Perhaps more significantly, I saw my mother driven frightenly close to suicide by my father's obvious EA that had signs of PA, that went on for years -- that scared me straight, I think.

But regardless, I think it is a mistake to assume that because he did this, that he didn't love you or must have been unhappy with you. People are full of contradictions, especially, I suppose, in sexually charged situations. I would guess he loved you (though not entirely in the way you deserved, or at least not as effectively), but, found her very very tempting -- not because of anything "wrong" or "deficient" about you, but (and this does NOT justify it), because, well, he was horny (what an inadequate word) and/or craved the emotionally pleasing experience sexual intimacy can bring.

As much as I hate the fact my wife slept with her prior boyfriend during the 7th or so week of what I had many reasons to believe was exclusive romantic but sexless dating with me, and especially hate the fact that she lied to me about it, I stayed with her months later when I found out. And, I have to admit I didn't stop seeing her when she went on the "pre-planned and already paid for vacation" where the week 7 sex occurred. (Mostly because of my virgin naivite!). But, I made the decision at the time that it was something she seemed to need to be "allowed" to go through to be done with that part of her life and be available to a future with me. Hurt like hell, still does at times (because of the lying), but, had I walked away -- certainly I would have lost out on some beautiful parts of my life that she helped create.

I say that, fully realizing you did NOT get to make that sort of conscious choice to stay or not before marriage and kids. Your situation is different. But, I wonder had you gotten a chance to know the truth early in your engagement, would you have broke it off with him? (Dont answer me, unless you want to!). And, if you had broken it off, would that have caused you to have missed some really good things you have had together -- perhaps enough so breaking it off would have been a bigger tragedy? (Not the only way to look at it, and not quite logically pure, but might be worth moment and give yet another perspective.)

I do think it is possible he lived you, and loves you, but he f'cked up, and has been afraid to hurt you with the truth and ashamed to be found out. That's possible. 

Unfortunately, other things are possible too.


----------



## Theseus

Laila619 said:


> Guys, I would like to hear your answer to this: if you were dating, in love with a woman, and someone else contacted you for sex, would you do it? I feel like my H was vulnerable to her because he didn't really love me, or at least he wasn't happy with me.



Would I do it? In his circumstances there's a strong chance that I would have. 

If I understand correctly, this was before you were engaged, right? So there are other possibilities other than he didn't really love you.

1. He wasn't yet certain if he loved you

2. This was his longtime crush, so he had to see if things were "meant to be" with her before he could decide to make a commitment with you

3. Since he had very recently started having sex, he was overcome with this new thing in his life

4. Deep down he resented that you had other lovers in your past, but he didn't

These aren't intended as excuses, but just pointing them out. In the end though, your husband can answer for himself better than anyone can here.

I had a similar revelation from my wife about something she did while we were engaged (although didn't go quite as far as your husband did). She was worried it would bother me, but surprisingly it didn't. I was confident she loved me and that was that.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Laila619 said:


> Guys, I would like to hear your answer to this: if you were dating, in love with a woman, and someone else contacted you for sex, would you do it? I feel like my H was vulnerable to her because he didn't really love me, or at least he wasn't happy with me.


In your situation, I am not sure. 

I understand that you both committed and both professed your love to each other. But in that case, if you had then told me that you no longer were going to have sex with me, I am not sure I would have felt that you had the same love for me. I certainly would have had a big sit down to discuss, as well as re-evaluate our commitment to each other. 

So if the one that I loved decided that she no longer wanted sex, I would feel insecure about the relationship. I like to think I would have acted differently. 

It is certainly possible that he just did not love you that much, but it is also possible that he did not think you loved him that much. 

That does not excuse what he did, but may provide some understanding.


----------



## Kimberley17

WorkingOnMe said:


> I agree with you there. A girl dating a guy does not owe him sex. But why would you turn that same coin over and think that a guy dating a girl he's not sexual with owes her celibacy?


The whole point here is he wanted exclusivity and agreed to the conditions (ie: no sex). He broke that agreement. It is considered cheating whenever the other person thinks they are in an exclusive relationship including sex or not IMO. He did cheat but I agree it's not as sever as if he did while they were sleeping together or being married. OP, I think what will help you get over this is a lot of reassurance from your husband that you are not his 2nd choice. Did he say why they only saw each other once and never spoke again? Was she married? A lot of times when someone has had a crush on someone for a while once they are actually with them it's not as good as imagined. How long were you dating when this happened? Just curious.


----------



## lisab0105

Kimberley17 said:


> The whole point here is he wanted exclusivity and agreed to the conditions (ie: no sex). He broke that agreement. It is considered cheating whenever the other person thinks they are in an exclusive relationship including sex or not IMO. He did cheat but I agree it's not as sever as if he did while they were sleeping together or being married. OP, I think what will help you get over this is a lot of reassurance from your husband that you are not his 2nd choice. Did he say why they only saw each other once and never spoke again? Was she married? A lot of times when someone has had a crush on someone for a while once they are actually with them it's not as good as imagined. How long were you dating when this happened? Just curious.


He just confessed that he was actually screwing the w**re the whole month. 

They did have a sexual relationship, she asked that they stop and wait for marriage. He agreed. But he really just decided to get it from someone else.


----------



## thatbpguy

lisab0105 said:


> He just confessed that he was actually screwing the w**re the whole month.
> 
> They did have a sexual relationship, she asked that they stop and wait for marriage. He agreed. *But he really just decided to get it from someone else.*


On the button.

This pretty much details his mindset with respect to being faithful.


----------



## Blue Firefly

Laila619 said:


> I honestly don't think he 'gets' it sometimes. I think sometimes he is frustrated when I bring it up.


What do you expect him to say when you bring it up? One sentence, 10 words or less. Define exactly how you want him to solve this problem?

He's frustrated, because he can't fix it. It simply is what it is.


You and your boyfriend agreed to an exclusive relationship.
He had sex with another woman during this period.
You and he later became engaged.
You and he got married.
You and he had children.
You and he have been married for 5 years, during which time he has been, according to your own description: a loyal, loving, attentive husband and father.

This is the history. He can't change it, you can't change it, nobody can change it. It is written in stone.

All he can do at this point is apologize and say he regrets it. But, he still can't fix it. You can bring it up 10 or 100 times, and you'll get the same answer: I'm sorry; I don't know what else to tell you; I don't know how to fix this. 

Punishing a dog for bad behavior once will correct the behavior. But, if you continually punish the dog day after day for an incident that occurred once, long ago in the past, eventually the dog will either run away or turn on you.

If you keep bringing it up--bringing it up as a no-win situation for him; a situation he can't fix--I'll guarantee his attitude will change. Instead of seeing you as a hurt wife looking for answers, he'll start to see you as the revengeful wife looking for another pound of flesh; that b!tch that can't let go of anything.

Ultimately, you only have two choices:


Accept that this is part of your and his past and leave it in the past.
Divorce

The fact that he is now showing frustration is evidence that he has become like the over-punished dog; he's either going to run away or turn on you.

I know you're getting a lot of advice saying you should make him feel as badly as you do; that you should punish him for what he has done; that you need to keep on this until he understands your hurt, but that's the road to divorce; that's the road to your children growing up in a home without their father.

From reading this thread, I would bet you are heading toward an eventual divorce over this incident. The path you are headed down leads to no other place than family destruction.


----------



## lisab0105

Blue Firefly said:


> What do you expect him to say when you bring it up? One sentence, 10 words or less. Define exactly how you want him to solve this problem?
> 
> He's frustrated, because he can't fix it. It simply is what it is.
> 
> 
> You and your boyfriend agreed to an exclusive relationship.
> He had sex with another woman during this period.
> You and he later became engaged.
> You and he got married.
> You and he had children.
> You and he have been married for 5 years, during which time he has been, according to your own description: a loyal, loving, attentive husband and father.
> 
> This is the history. He can't change it, you can't change it, nobody can change it. It is written in stone.
> 
> All he can do at this point is apologize and say he regrets it. But, he still can't fix it. You can bring it up 10 or 100 times, and you'll get the same answer: I'm sorry; I don't know what else to tell you; I don't know how to fix this.
> 
> Punishing a dog for bad behavior once will correct the behavior. But, if you continually punish the dog day after day for an incident that occurred once, long ago in the past, eventually the dog will either run away or turn on you.
> 
> If you keep bringing it up--bringing it up as a no-win situation for him; a situation he can't fix--I'll guarantee his attitude will change. Instead of seeing you as a hurt wife looking for answers, he'll start to see you as the revengeful wife looking for another pound of flesh; that b!tch that can't let go of anything.
> 
> Ultimately, you only have two choices:
> 
> 
> Accept that this is part of your and his past and leave it in the past.
> Divorce
> 
> The fact that he is now showing frustration is evidence that he has become like the over-punished dog; he's either going to run away or turn on you.
> 
> I know you're getting a lot of advice saying you should make him feel as badly as you do; that you should punish him for what he has done; that you need to keep on this until he understands your hurt, but that's the road to divorce; that's the road to your children growing up in a home without their father.
> 
> From reading this thread, I would bet you are heading toward an eventual divorce over this incident. The path you are headed down leads to no other place than family destruction.


She just found out the whole truth, take it easy on the guilt tripping.


----------



## thatbpguy

Blue Firefly said:


> Ultimately, you only have two choices:
> 
> 
> Accept that this is part of your and his past and leave it in the past.
> Divorce


Overall I liked your post.

But I think there is a third option here and the one she is looking for.

I would place between your two choices, how to "cope". Not "accept", which to me implies giving in to the facts you set forth and just let them be.

But she has to cope with the fact her husband is unfaithful and opportunistic about it. Now granted the only known unfaithfulness was prior to their marriage but it was during a time they were pledged to be exclusive and when he didn't get what he wanted, no probloem, he found someone else. To me, coping means coming to grips with the stated facts and being able to live with the pain and trust issues that associate the situation and maintain a marriage by managing such pain and lack of trust. In so doing she can also maintain balance and perspective rather than just giving in- which is being defeated by it all. I would think that could lead to depression. 

So his true character has been established.

I get the sense she wants to find a way to learn how to love (or at least be content) a man like that giving him the credit for being faithful duriging their marriage so far.


----------



## workindad

Op sorry for the confusion on my part I'm trying to read from my mobile. Do I understand correctly that you two were having sex then stopped? I am referring to your dating pre engagement time. If that is correct who had the idea to stop sex you or him? 


Thanks
Wd
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blue Firefly

thatbpguy said:


> Overall I liked your post.
> 
> But I think there is a third option here and the one she is looking for.
> 
> I would place between your two choises, how to "cope". Not "accept", which to me implies giving in to the facts you set forth and just let them be.


The facts are the facts; the history is the history. It can't be changed.

The first step in coping with what happened it to accept that it's a historical fact that can't be changed.

Coping with it is a decision she'll have to make. She's the one that will have to make the change. He can't do it for her; her can't fix it for her.

It's unfortunate that in this particular situation the victim is on that's going to have to do the heavy lifting to get their marriage back on track, but it's an unfortunate situation that can't be changed.

He has already coped with the situation a long time ago and put it behind him.

The question is now: can she? Everything now is in her ball court. There's really nothing he can do to help her.


----------



## lisab0105

Learning to cope with the fact that the person you love was living a double life...saying one thing to her, but doing something completely different behind her back. 

He couldn't give her the courtesy of saying "Hey, listen, this arrangement is just too hard for me. I need you to know, I might be tempted to have sex with someone else if you are set on us not having sex before marriage." He never gave her the choice. He just let her believe everything was good. When in fact it wasn't. 

It is very hard to live with that and she has a definite struggle ahead of her. I hope people can understand that her feelings for him were valid, even though they were not married yet. She has experienced a very real and heartbreaking betrayal. She will spend the rest of her marriage wondering and imagining her husband with another woman. He could have made it so much easier for her, if he had just been up front about what he could and could not accept in their relationship. But he didn't, he was a cake eater. Something most on TAM absolutely detest in a person. 

She has to worry about her healing before she can worry about making things easier for her husband.


----------



## lisab0105

Blue Firefly said:


> The facts are the facts; the history is the history. It can't be changed.
> 
> The first step in coping with what happened it to accept that it's a historical fact that can't be changed.
> 
> Coping with it is a decision she'll have to make. She's the one that will have to make the change. He can't do it for her; her can't fix it for her.
> 
> It's unfortunate that in this particular situation the victim is on that's going to have to do the heavy lifting to get their marriage back on track, but it's an unfortunate situation that can't be changed.
> 
> He has already coped with the situation a long time ago and put it behind him.
> 
> The question is now: can she? Everything now is in her ball court. There's really nothing he can do to help her.


You actually just made a very good point, one that absolutely burns me to my core and hits close to home as I am from a situation very similar to Laila's.

We, the BS, are left holding the bag. We have to do the heavy lifting in our relationship when we weren't the ones who broke it to begin with. The cheater ultimately, gets to be the winner. Her husband got to have sex with his high school crush, all the while proclaiming his love to someone else. He gets married, has kids, has a great life. His wife puts the pieces together...nothing for him changes even after the truth is out. He just has to hear her *****ing and moaning. But her world is changed forever. And it is up to her to deal with it. Forgive or leave. All he has to do is sit there with his memories of banging his crush and marrying the girl he loved. 

Must be nice to be the cheater...because being the BS sucks.


----------



## thatbpguy

Blue Firefly said:


> The facts are the facts; the history is the history. It can't be changed.
> 
> The first step in coping with what happened it to accept that it's a historical fact that can't be changed.
> 
> Coping with it is a decision she'll have to make. She's the one that will have to make the change. He can't do it for her; her can't fix it for her.
> 
> It's unfortunate that in this particular situation the victim is on that's going to have to do the heavy lifting to get their marriage back on track, but it's an unfortunate situation that can't be changed.
> 
> *He has already coped with the situation a long time ago and put it behind him.*
> 
> The question is now: can she? Everything now is in her ball court. There's really nothing he can do to help her.


Not to be argumentative, but I think the flaw in your thinking is the highlighted text.

He’s shrugged it off and is making it her problem. This is the classic kiss of death by betrayers. “Hey, I’m over it. It’s in the past and I’ve moved on. Now it’s your problem.”

I disagree.

It’s his problem and always will be. Why? Because there is a whopping big difference between being the perpetrator of a crime and the victim. The perpetrator just goes on their merry way. The victim has to live with the repercussions. The pain, the guilt, the anguish, the lack of trust, watching the perpetrator being care free while you are stuck with the mess… That again speaks to the character of her husband. 

He is accountable every day for the rest of his life for what he has done. He has to deal with it. He has to help her cope. He has to show true contrition each and every day. Not like some doormat, but as someone who loves her and is remorseful and so he helps her thorough this. To me, the betrayer has meted out a lifetime sentence to the betrayed and therefore must accept accountability. It comes with the territory of being a betrayer.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

thatbpguy said:


> I get the sense she wants to find a way to learn how to love (or at least be content) a man like that giving him the credit for being faithful duriging their marriage so far.


I think she does as well. I have been disappointed that few have provided her with tools that may help her do that. Lot's of agreement that he is an awful person , but almost no suggestions on how to move forward through this.

I have suggested a couple of books, but I don't know if she has looked at them. Again, Surviving an Affair and Not Just Friends (for both of you) may be helpful.

I would also suggest some of the basics, like full transparency, her checking phone and email records to confirm nothing else has happened. I would not oppose a NC letter, if only for symbolic purposes. I think MC makes sense.


----------



## Blue Firefly

thatbpguy said:


> Not to be argumentative, but I think the flaw in your thinking is the highlighted text.
> 
> He’s shrugged it off and is making it her problem. This is the classic kiss of death by betrayers. “Hey, I’m over it. It’s in the past and I’ve moved on. Now it’s your problem.”
> 
> I disagree.
> 
> It’s his problem and always will be. Why? Because there is a whopping big difference between being the perpetrator of a crime and the victim. The perpetrator just goes on their merry way. The victim has to live with the repercussions. The pain, the guilt, the anguish, the lack of trust, watching the perpetrator being care free while you are stuck with the mess… That again speaks to the character of her husband.
> 
> He is accountable every day for the rest of his life for what he has done. He has to deal with it. He has to help her cope. He has to show true contrition each and every day. Not like some doormat, but as someone who loves her and is remorseful and so he helps her thorough this. To me, the betrayer has meted out a lifetime sentence to the betrayed and therefore must accept accountability. It comes with the territory of being a betrayer.


Beyond feeling shame and asking forgiveness for what he has done, what else can he do *to solve the problem* at this point?



> He has to show true contrition each and every day.


Really, you think that's the solution? That he should spend every day of the rest of his live paying penance for his sin?

Even criminals are let out of jail eventually; even they have the hope of one day having "paid their debt to society" and a fresh start. But, the husband in this instance should have to live with this hanging over his head for the rest of his life; living a life of constantly being reminded of how he screwed up?

Do you really think he'll hang around for the next 40+ years living like that? If that's the solution, then the eventual outcome is divorce.

Maybe it isn't fair, but it's the reality.


----------



## thatbpguy

Blue Firefly said:


> Beyond feeling shame and asking forgiveness for what he has done, what else can he do *to solve the problem* at this point?
> 
> 
> 
> Really, you think that's the solution? That he should spend every day of the rest of his live paying penance for his sin?
> 
> Even criminals are let out of jail eventually; even they have the hope of one day having "paid their debt to society" and a fresh start. But, the husband in this instance should have to live with this hanging over his head for the rest of his life; living a life of constantly being reminded of how he screwed up?
> 
> Do you really think he'll hang around for the next 40+ years living like that? If that's the solution, then the eventual outcome is divorce.
> 
> Maybe it isn't fair, but it's the reality.


I do see your points, but I think he does have accountability. It’s a spouse’s ‘job’ to love and support. To make the marriage all it can be (not perfect, but you know what I mean). He’s just shrugging it off and doesn’t appear to be making the effort. Personally, I find that unacceptable. He should be doing whatever it takes to make it right. Clearly he is not.


----------



## Laila8

lisab0105 said:


> You actually just made a very good point, one that absolutely burns me to my core and hits close to home as I am from a situation very similar to Laila's.
> 
> We, the BS, are left holding the bag. We have to do the heavy lifting in our relationship when we weren't the ones who broke it to begin with. The cheater ultimately, gets to be the winner. Her husband got to have sex with his high school crush, all the while proclaiming his love to someone else. He gets married, has kids, has a great life. His wife puts the pieces together...nothing for him changes even after the truth is out. He just has to hear her *****ing and moaning. But her world is changed forever. And it is up to her to deal with it. Forgive or leave. All he has to do is sit there with his memories of banging his crush and marrying the girl he loved.


Yep, that's exactly how I feel Lisa. What are the consequences for him? He got to have his fun. I had no choice. Now kids are involved so I'm not breaking up the marriage. So he gets to 'get away with it' while I have to just suck it up. If I keep bringing it up, I'll be a nagging b*tch who will eventually push him away.


----------



## Laila8

workindad said:


> Op sorry for the confusion on my part I'm trying to read from my mobile. Do I understand correctly that you two were having sex then stopped? I am referring to your dating pre engagement time. If that is correct who had the idea to stop sex you or him?
> 
> 
> Thanks
> Wd


Hi workindad,

This is the general time line:

1) we meet
2) he asks (begs) me for exclusivity after about 2 months of dating and I agree. He says he does not want us to see others
3) we both say I love you and have sex 5 months after we met. He was a virgin so I was his first
4) I "cut him off" after having sex for approximately 2 months. I tell him I love him but I want to save the whole shebang for marriage, but we can still do other things. He says okay and he understands.
5) After 14 months of dating, he meets the other woman and sleeps with her. I now know it went on multiple times for a month or so; he would bang her on nights when I was busy, and see me for dates on the other nights. We were supposedly happy and in love during this time. I have old e-mails/love letters from him during this time that indicate this 
6) I'm still not clear who ended it between them. He says he did, but I doubt it. He proposes to me after 16 months of dating. I find it gross that he proposed to me so close to when this whole thing was going on.

He says it was just about sex and nothing else, that the other woman made it clear she wanted to sleep with him.


----------



## Laila8

Blue Firefly said:


> What do you expect him to say when you bring it up? One sentence, 10 words or less. Define exactly how you want him to solve this problem?
> 
> He's frustrated, because he can't fix it. It simply is what it is.
> 
> 
> You and your boyfriend agreed to an exclusive relationship.
> He had sex with another woman during this period.
> You and he later became engaged.
> You and he got married.
> You and he had children.
> You and he have been married for 5 years, during which time he has been, according to your own description: a loyal, loving, attentive husband and father.
> 
> This is the history. He can't change it, you can't change it, nobody can change it. It is written in stone.
> 
> All he can do at this point is apologize and say he regrets it. But, he still can't fix it. You can bring it up 10 or 100 times, and you'll get the same answer: I'm sorry; I don't know what else to tell you; I don't know how to fix this.
> 
> Punishing a dog for bad behavior once will correct the behavior. But, if you continually punish the dog day after day for an incident that occurred once, long ago in the past, eventually the dog will either run away or turn on you.
> 
> If you keep bringing it up--bringing it up as a no-win situation for him; a situation he can't fix--I'll guarantee his attitude will change. Instead of seeing you as a hurt wife looking for answers, he'll start to see you as the revengeful wife looking for another pound of flesh; that b!tch that can't let go of anything.
> 
> Ultimately, you only have two choices:
> 
> 
> Accept that this is part of your and his past and leave it in the past.
> Divorce
> 
> The fact that he is now showing frustration is evidence that he has become like the over-punished dog; he's either going to run away or turn on you.
> 
> I know you're getting a lot of advice saying you should make him feel as badly as you do; that you should punish him for what he has done; that you need to keep on this until he understands your hurt, but that's the road to divorce; that's the road to your children growing up in a home without their father.
> 
> From reading this thread, I would bet you are heading toward an eventual divorce over this incident. The path you are headed down leads to no other place than family destruction.


Blue Firefly, I get what you're saying. I absolutely do. But should the whole thing just be rugswept then, so I don't risk over-punishing him and pissing him off? I don't want him to view me as a shrewish, bitter nag. Should I just say to him, "Okay, well don't do it again" and that's it, we continue on like nothing ever happened? I don't see how that will be beneficial either.


----------



## Laila8

Tall Average Guy said:


> I think she does as well. I have been disappointed that few have provided her with tools that may help her do that. Lot's of agreement that he is an awful person , but almost no suggestions on how to move forward through this.
> 
> I have suggested a couple of books, but I don't know if she has looked at them. Again, Surviving an Affair and Not Just Friends (for both of you) may be helpful.
> 
> I would also suggest some of the basics, like full transparency, her checking phone and email records to confirm nothing else has happened. I would not oppose a NC letter, if only for symbolic purposes. I think MC makes sense.


TAG, I have not read those books yet, but I will definitely check them out, thanks.

He is pretty good about full transparency. We both know each other's e-mail passwords, he allows me to look at his cell whenever I want, he does not have Facebook, he doesn't talk to anyone online, etc. From my own Facebook sleuthing, the other woman is married now too. I don't think they've talked since H and I got engaged, although there's no way to confirm since we now know my H is obviously pretty good at being sneaky.

Just hurts to know that, based on my H's past actions, if he were given a chance for some easy sex, he probably would do it.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Laila619 said:


> Just hurts to know that, based on my H's past actions, if he were given a chance for some easy sex, he probably would do it.


Maybe, maybe not. That he did so in the past does not automatically make it so now. But it is now part of his job to convince you that it is not the case now. I do suggest that you check out other threads to get ideas on what you need him to do to start the process.


----------



## Blue Firefly

Laila619 said:


> Blue Firefly, I get what you're saying. I absolutely do. But should the whole thing just be rugswept then, so I don't risk over-punishing him and pissing him off? I don't want him to view me as a shrewish, bitter nag. Should I just say to him, "Okay, well don't do it again" and that's it, we continue on like nothing ever happened? I don't see how that will be beneficial either.


Normally, a cheating spouse is given a set of guidelines--goals they must meet over time--to prove they are serious about reconciling and putting their cheating past behind them.

So, what measurement are you going to use? Specifically, a "if you do these things, then I'll believe this is behind us, forgive you, and we can move on" statement.

By your own description, he has been a perfect husband for the past 5 years. What more than "continue to be a perfect husband" can you ask of him? What more than continuing to do what he has been doing for the past 5 years--being a perfect husband--can he do?

That's the dilemma he finds himself in. He's already done the things most cheaters have to do to reconcile: he's been loyal, faithful and completely dedicated to his wife and family. He doesn't have anything else in his toolbox to prove himself to you.

But, he's hearing he now has to prove himself all over again to you. How? He's already been the perfect husband for the last 5 years, what else can he do?

You need to give him some clear, concrete goals to meet--something he can actually do--to fix the problem. Let him know exactly what it will take to get past this.

And by clear, I mean a numbered list that has a clearly defined task and a clearly defined acceptance criteria.


task & acceptance-criteria
task & acceptance-criteria
task & acceptance-criteria
task & acceptance-criteria


----------



## aug

He obviously wasn't that prefect the last 5 years when he kept the secret.

It probably the lost of some trust and innocence that hurts.


----------



## Laila8

Blue Firefly said:


> Normally, a cheating spouse is given a set of guidelines--goals they must meet over time--to prove they are serious about reconciling and putting their cheating past behind them.
> 
> So, what measurement are you going to use? Specifically, a "if you do these things, then I'll believe this is behind us, forgive you, and we can move on" statement.
> 
> By your own description, he has been a perfect husband for the past 5 years. What more than "continue to be a perfect husband" can you ask of him? What more than continuing to do what he has been doing for the past 5 years--being a perfect husband--can he do?
> 
> That's the dilemma he finds himself in. He's already done the things most cheaters have to do to reconcile: he's been loyal, faithful and completely dedicated to his wife and family. He doesn't have anything else in his toolbox to prove himself to you.
> 
> But, he's hearing he now has to prove himself all over again to you. How? He's already been the perfect husband for the last 5 years, what else can he do?
> 
> *You need to give him some clear, concrete goals to meet--something he can actually do--to fix the problem. Let him know exactly what it will take to get past this.
> 
> And by clear, I mean a numbered list that has a clearly defined task and a clearly defined acceptance criteria.*
> 
> 
> task & acceptance-criteria
> task & acceptance-criteria
> task & acceptance-criteria
> task & acceptance-criteria


I don't even know what sort of things he could do to 'fix' it. He already is a great husband--cooks, cleans, helps with kids, is affectionate and caring. I wish I knew if *he* ended it, or if she ended it. That would help me. If he ended it of his own accord, that would make things sting less, and I wasn't just his second choice. But he keeps saying he doesn't remember who ended it.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Laila619 said:


> I don't even know what sort of things he could do to 'fix' it. He already is a great husband--cooks, cleans, helps with kids, is affectionate and caring. I wish I knew if *he* ended it, or if she ended it. That would help me. If he ended it of his own accord, that would make things sting less, and I wasn't just his second choice. But he keeps saying he doesn't remember who ended it.


Seems to me there are two possibilities with this answer:

1. He is lying. He knows, knows you won't like the answer; or
2. It just fizzled out, with neither of them really ending it.

What is his description of the relationship like? Is it consistent with one or the other? My instinct is that it is the first, because I suspect you could have at least rationally understood the second scenario.

As for you being the second choice, not sure I have much to help you with. There are WS who insist that their affair was a side thing and they never had any intention of leaving their spouse. Not sure it is accurate, but it is there, for whatever that is worth.


----------



## Theseus

Laila,

Just another angle to consider. Reading this thread it occured to me what had I done prior to marriage - did I keep anything from my wife?

When I thought long and hard, while I didn't sleep with anyone else while we were exclusive, there was a lot of "gray area" activity, especially before we were engaged. Then there are other issues (like money, like going to strip bars, etc) that I deliberately lied about or kept from her. If I told her everything at once then certainly she would be furious. 

So what is my point? The point is, can you honestly say you have never kept anything important from your husband? If you haven't, then more power to you. But there are scant few spouses that can honestly claim that. If you really think long and hard, and you realize that there are things that would make *him* furious if he found out, then it might help you get over this and understand that we are all human. 

Anyway, it's just worth a thought.


----------



## coupdegrace

Laila, it sounds like you're punishing yourself and him: Him by continually bringing it up, and you by continually thinking about it. In a perfect world, what do you want to happen? It's in the past. If he says that he remembers ending it, it sounds like you'll be forever wonderding if he's lying. If she ended it, you'll be forever haunted that you were the number 2 choice. It sounds like a catch 22. 

It sounds like this is ancient history and that he's been a faithful, loyal husband to you and a great father to the children. It might be in your best interest to drop this before it eats you alive. Perhaps you should consider therapy so you can work at getting over this.


----------



## thatbpguy

Laila619 said:


> I don't even know what sort of things he could do to 'fix' it. He already is a great husband--cooks, cleans, helps with kids, is affectionate and caring. I wish I knew if *he* ended it, or if she ended it. That would help me. If he ended it of his own accord, that would make things sting less, and I wasn't just his second choice. But he keeps saying he doesn't remember who ended it.


Laila, I have to admit I cannot recall seeing such a diversity of opinions. From the ones that were removed tearing you apart to those backing you fully. It’s an interesting thread. 

But at the end of the day this is about you and your healing. It’s about trust and what it means to you. Nothing erases the facts of the matter and how it took years before your husband would tell as much as he has. 

If you now feel you have as much of the truth as you are going to get (and indeed may have the vast majority of it), I suggest talking to a counselor about how to cope, how to gain some semblance of trust and how to best move forward. By all accounts he seems to love you and there is no indication he has reoffended. 

I think this place was good to start with- for the most part, anyway and I’ll leave it at that. But still it seems to me it’s time to start working on some closure and seeking ways to forgive. He will have to be an active part in it all and I am sure he will if asked to for your sake.


----------



## Blue Firefly

Laila619 said:


> I don't even know what sort of things he could do to 'fix' it. He already is a great husband--cooks, cleans, helps with kids, is affectionate and caring. I wish I knew if *he* ended it, or if she ended it. That would help me. If he ended it of his own accord, that would make things sting less, and I wasn't just his second choice. But he keeps saying he doesn't remember who ended it.


I understand your husband's previous relationship with another woman has made you feel insecure about a number of things. Do you honestly think your husband doesn't feel insecure about your previous sexual relationship?

Did you break up with him, or did he break up with you?
Was your husband your second choice after your first lover?
Do you ever dream about your previous lover or ever wonder "what if I had married him instead"?
Was your old lover better endowed than your husband, did he have a better body, was he a better lover?
Men worry about these things too. Your husband wonders sometimes if he is being compared to someone in your past; at some level he knows he competes with a memory; he understands completely the meaning of being insecure.

Do you think it would help your husband to talk about these questions? To get everything out in the open?

No, no, and hell no!

Men don't want to rehash the past. They want to put the past behind them and forget about it. Nothing would please him more than if you told him the answer to the above questions was "you know honey, that guy was so long ago that I've just forgotten."

He is probably perplexed at your request for details. 

1) He sure as hell wouldn't want to know the details of your past sexual encounters. So, he probably thinks he's doing the right thing by not giving you the details, even though you are demanding them.

2) He's been trying to put this in the past and forget about it (for what...more than 5 years). At this point he probably doesn't remember many of the details. But, that's because he's a guy and that's what guys do with things they regret doing--they literally forget about them.


----------



## Squeakr

Blue Firefly said:


> I understand your husband's previous relationship with another woman has made you feel insecure about a number of things. Do you honestly think your husband doesn't feel insecure about your previous sexual relationship?
> 
> Did you break up with him, or did he break up with you?
> Was your husband your second choice after your first lover?
> Do you ever dream about your previous lover or ever wonder "what if I had married him instead"?
> Was your old lover better endowed than your husband, did he have a better body, was he a better lover?
> Men worry about these things too. Your husband wonders sometimes if he is being compared to someone in your past; at some level he knows he competes with a memory; he understands completely the meaning of being insecure.
> 
> Do you think it would help your husband to talk about these questions? To get everything out in the open?
> 
> No, no, and hell no!
> 
> Men don't want to rehash the past. They want to put the past behind them and forget about it. Nothing would please him more than if you told him the answer to the above questions was "you know honey, that guy was so long ago that I've just forgotten."
> 
> He is probably perplexed at your request for details.
> 
> 1) He sure as hell wouldn't want to know the details of your past sexual encounters. So, he probably thinks he's doing the right thing by not giving you the details, even though you are demanding them.
> 
> 2) He's been trying to put this in the past and forget about it (for what...more than 5 years). At this point he probably doesn't remember many of the details. But, that's because he's a guy and that's what guys do with things they regret doing--they literally forget about them.


I can see your points, but don't generalize and speak for men in general. Maybe these are the points you share, but not necessarily the case for all. Then again I forget, I am in the 0.01% so I don't count.

Carry on then!


----------



## Calibre12

She was not wife-material. No one he would bring home to meet his mother. She was a pair of boobs and that may very well be the extent of her character...just a fudge


----------



## Laila8

Blue Firefly said:


> I understand your husband's previous relationship with another woman has made you feel insecure about a number of things. Do you honestly think your husband doesn't feel insecure about your previous sexual relationship?
> 
> Did you break up with him, or did he break up with you?
> Was your husband your second choice after your first lover?
> Do you ever dream about your previous lover or ever wonder "what if I had married him instead"?
> Was your old lover better endowed than your husband, did he have a better body, was he a better lover?
> Men worry about these things too. Your husband wonders sometimes if he is being compared to someone in your past; at some level he knows he competes with a memory; he understands completely the meaning of being insecure.
> 
> Do you think it would help your husband to talk about these questions? To get everything out in the open?
> 
> No, no, and hell no!
> 
> Men don't want to rehash the past. They want to put the past behind them and forget about it. Nothing would please him more than if you told him the answer to the above questions was "you know honey, that guy was so long ago that I've just forgotten."
> 
> He is probably perplexed at your request for details.
> 
> 1) He sure as hell wouldn't want to know the details of your past sexual encounters. So, he probably thinks he's doing the right thing by not giving you the details, even though you are demanding them.
> 
> 2) He's been trying to put this in the past and forget about it (for what...more than 5 years). At this point he probably doesn't remember many of the details. But, that's because he's a guy and that's what guys do with things they regret doing--they literally forget about them.


Again, I understand your points, but it's just different to me, because I wasn't with my former lover and my H at the same time. That old boyfriend was LONG out of the picture when I met my H. If I had banged the old boyfriend while dating hubby, he dumped me, and then I went crawling back to hubby, I'm sure my H would feel like a consolation prize. Well, that's how I feel. There were lots of texts between them, way more than my H has ever sent me. It appeared he was very hot for her. She obviously knew how to reel him in and please him in a way I did not. So it does hurt. 

Regardless, I need to stop letting this affect my self-esteem and realize that his actions and his desire to bed another woman does not make me unattractive or unworthy. I am going to consider a counselor, just for me. I've always had self-esteem issues, but now after two kids, I feel even uglier since I've gained twenty pounds. A small part of me feels like he couldn't be faithful to me when I was young and in shape and at my hottest, so now he won't when I'm older with stretch marks and extra weight and the relationship isn't as fresh and exciting.


----------



## Laila8

I really want to thank everyone for your posts. You guys are so thoughtful and kind to take the time to help virtual strangers out. Even if I didn't reply to you personally, I've read and taken in your advice.


----------



## tulsy

Suspecting said:


> They were having sex previously and were agreed to be exclusive. What is a piece of paper and a ring going to change if the other can't be loyal before that.


*She* was the one who decided that she wanted to suddenly stop having sex with him until they were married. 

If a man did the same thing to his girlfriend, she might screw around too. It would suck in either scenario.

_What was the point of stopping sex until marriage anyways? Was this some kind of fitness test, see if he could wait for her, since already having it? _

Talk about taking candy from a baby.

STILL....it's still cheating, and he should have told her before they got married. That is a chitty thing to do to someone. Feels like it's all based on a lie.

I would be really upset too...but I would also realize that I kinda cheated the person out of a sex life by DECIDING that I wanted to wait AFTER HAVING SEX FOR MONTHS. 

It's like sex is the prize...this is how good sex with me is....you like that?....want more?....marry me and you can have more.

It's juvenile, IMO. Still, he's not trustworthy for keeping that from you.

I hope you guys can work it out and get past this (if it's worth it). Start with outlining some real boundaries so you don't run into more infidelity down the road. It's hard to trust someone after learning this.


----------



## Calibre12

Please allow me to say this, because I can identify. I had to stop blaming him for my dissatisfaction with myself and make a change for me and NO ONE else.

"I need to stop letting this affect my self-esteem and realize that his actions and his desire to bed another woman does not make me unattractive or unworthy." 
EXACTLY 

& Herein lies the real issues:
"I've always had self-esteem issues, but now after two kids, I feel even uglier since I've gained twenty pounds. 
A small part of me feels like he couldn't be faithful to me when I was young and in shape and at my hottest, so now he won't when I'm older with stretch marks and extra weight and the relationship isn't as fresh and exciting." 

Start an exercise routine (check with your doctor first): Pace yourself to walk until you can power walk, then jog until you can run, run until you can run faster. Lots of H2O, fruits, veggies, small amounts of carbs. You haven't been taking care of YOU. Experiment with a new look, revamp your wardrobe (include lingerie for when you reach your ideal weight), refresh yourself, re-aquaint yourself with a modern version of your 16 year-old self and LIVE! Mederma and Curel are great for skin!


----------



## aug

Laila619 said:


> Regardless, I need to stop letting this affect my self-esteem and realize that his actions and his desire to bed another woman does not make me unattractive or unworthy. I am going to consider a counselor, just for me. I've always had self-esteem issues, but now after two kids, I feel even uglier since I've gained twenty pounds. A small part of me feels like he couldn't be faithful to me *when I was young and in shape and at my hottest*, so now he won't when I'm older with stretch marks and extra weight and the relationship isn't as fresh and exciting.


Some women are even hotter when they get older. Why not you?


----------



## Laila8

tulsy said:


> _What was the point of stopping sex until marriage anyways? Was this some kind of fitness test, see if he could wait for her, since already having it? _
> 
> Talk about taking candy from a baby.
> 
> STILL....it's still cheating, and he should have told her before they got married. That is a chitty thing to do to someone. Feels like it's all based on a lie.
> 
> I would be really upset too...but I would also realize that I kinda cheated the person out of a sex life by DECIDING that I wanted to wait AFTER HAVING SEX FOR MONTHS.
> 
> It's like sex is the prize...this is how good sex with me is....you like that?....want more?....marry me and you can have more.
> 
> It's juvenile, IMO. Still, he's not trustworthy for keeping that from you.


I agree it was pretty dumb of me. The horse was already out of the barn so to speak, so at that point it was probably dumb/confusing/manipulative to tell him I wanted to stop. And obviously, it backfired on me spectacularly.


----------



## lisab0105

Laila619 said:


> I agree it was pretty dumb of me. The horse was already out of the barn so to speak, so at that point it was probably dumb/confusing/manipulative to tell him I wanted to stop. And obviously, it backfired on me spectacularly.


Oh no...don't you even dare do that to yourself. You were not manipulative. You weren't asking for this to happen by stopping the sex. He had every chance to NOT be a f'cking p*ssy and tell you he just couldn't adhere to your wishes. But he didn't. 

Being "human" didn't make him cheat. Him cheating and lying about it for years is NOT the equivalent to some guy lying to his GF/Fiance/Wife about going to a strip club...

You didn't ask for this. No matter what. He had the power to tell you how he really felt about your request, and he didn't. *This was and will always be all on him. *


----------



## NextTimeAround

Laila619 said:


> At this point I am too numb and it doesn't even surprise me, but if it makes a difference, he did end up confessing to the rest of it. He admitted that all the missing condoms were used with her, so obviously this was NOT a one time thing. *Turns out it was more like a one month long fling, with multiple times. He would go to her house during the week to have sex when I was busy, and happily date me on weekends, all while saying he loved me, I made him so happy, etc. * When I pull up old e-mails and love letters he sent me during this time period, it's astounding how he sounded totally normal and happy, and he was as mushy and sweet to me as ever. Nauseating.


I'm in a similar situation. No we weren't exclusive at the time but it was not a fair multidating situation since she knew all about me -- because he first told her about me but he didn't do the same for me and she would ask for more info and he would answer -- and then later on, he kept telling me what a great "friend" she was. 

He would not have dumped her even as a friend until I asked him to. 

It seems to me at the time that you describe above that you were fully invested in the relationship ie giving him your free time; possibly turning down other men to date; looking to a future with him.

You may be wondering now whether he might have dumped you if he believed that she was marriage or at least relationship material _at a time when you were had more long time expectations of him._

And similar to how your husband can't "remember" who dumped whom........ my fiance who at one time claimed that when we met I was "all over him" claims that he can't even remember who spoke to whom first when he met his "friend." Funny that he doesn't have some humiliating story about how she chased him all over place but he does have one of me (which he has since revised)......

At the same time, you said that he is a good husband and good father; my fiance is a good man and good to me. I am working on getting over the bumpy start that we had.


----------



## Suspecting

tulsy said:


> *She* was the one who decided that she wanted to suddenly stop having sex with him until they were married.
> 
> If a man did the same thing to his girlfriend, she might screw around too. It would suck in either scenario.
> 
> _What was the point of stopping sex until marriage anyways? Was this some kind of fitness test, see if he could wait for her, since already having it? _
> 
> Talk about taking candy from a baby.


I will answer this since you quoted my post. Some of you keep bringing the sex again and again. Everyone has a right to refrain from sex if they want to. However, I would think there's more to a marriage than that. Are you with your spouse for sex only?


----------



## PieceOfSky

Laila619 said:


> I agree it was pretty dumb of me. The horse was already out of the barn so to speak, so at that point it was probably dumb/confusing/manipulative to tell him I wanted to stop. And obviously, it backfired on me spectacularly.


Stop, please.

You had your reasons at the time. Don't allow anyone to shame you into imagining "bad" reasons were "probably" the ones.

I can imagine some "good" reasons you might have stopped. 

Lest we forget, he wasn't cut off completely from you sexually. You stopped having PIV, but IIRC you were still sexually intimate with each other in other ways - and, IMHO, that is a very loving gift.

Also, it is a leap to think this would not have happened if you had been PIV-ing him daily. 

Please resist the urge to participate in blameshifting to yourself.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

PieceOfSky said:


> Stop, please.
> 
> You had your reasons at the time. Don't allow anyone to shame you into imagining "bad" reasons were "probably" the ones.
> 
> I can imagine some "good" reasons you might have stopped.


The problem is that her decision reveals her own thoughts on their situation. From her earlier post:



> I'd love to hear your thoughts. A wife should not deny her husband sex. That I definitely agree with! *A girlfriend? She doesn't owe just a boyfriend anything. If he likes it, he can put a ring on it first. *A girl dating a guy does not owe him sex. I feel like it was my prerogative to change my mind. He could have broken up with me if he didn't like it.


She clearly puts BF/GF on a different level than marriage. She also clearly believed that she had different, lesser responsibilities as a GF. It seems possible that this was communicated to her BF through her decision to not have PIV, as well as through other reasons. I don't know if this was a factor, but it is not a stretch to say that it could have been.

This does not excuse the BF or his actions, but may give us some understanding. I also don't see it as blame shifting for her to think about her past actions. He owns the cheating, but she shares in their relationship issues.


----------



## Hardtohandle

My wife either did or was looking to. I caught her looking someone up online 1 month before our wedding. she cried and begged and pleaded nothing happen it was something stupid she did looking up this man, but nothing more. I never found out the truth as I rug swept it. I was 25k in the hole for a wedding and 5k for a honeymoon. Mind you when I say I was 30k in a hole. I mean I was, I paid for the whole wedding, not her family, not mine.. MEEE.. This was as I paid for her college as well. I worked 3 jobs, cop, and 2 security jobs. I would leave monday morning and would come home wednesday night. 

She eventually went on to look to cheat 3 other times during our 19 year relationship. She was caught 2 times looking to cheat and on the 3rd time I failed to keep the fox out of the hen house.

After all I've been through with her and stuck by her side after 19 years she kicks me to the curb like a piece of sh1t. 

At 45 with 2 boys, I need to start my life over. I love my kids with *ALL MY HEART*. 

If any of my kids had the numbers 666 imprinted on their heads, I can tell you hell would rein on earth because I could never hurt them. 

BUT that being said. I wish I left her when I caught her the first time. Mind you those are the times I only know about.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Tall Average Guy said:


> I also don't see it as blame shifting for her to think about her past actions.


I agree her doing thinking about her past actions is not inherently blame-shifting.

Still, in the context of earlier posts, I think the propensity for blameshifting is high here, and worthy of her own conscious analysis to resist and debunk when it occurs.


----------



## NextTimeAround

It seems that this situation supports a big difference that I see between men and women.

That is because women are more verbal, we put a name on something and therefore it is. Laila discussed having an exclusive romantic relationship with her future husband. She told him that it would not include PIV sex although they had already engaged in it at least once (and it's not completely clear that there were other forms of sexual affection) and he agreed to it. So she thought she had a deal.

However, it seems that instinctively, future husband felt that since the relationship did not include sex or sex in the way he wanted it, then he didn't see where he had an exclusive relationship that prevented him from engaging in an activity that his girlfriend refused to share with him anyway.

Like others, not saying that he is not wrong for what he did. But my identifying this difference between men and women has helped me to understand other situations that caused confusion.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Tall Average Guy said:


> The problem is that her decision reveals her own thoughts on their situation.


I don't understand what you are saying here. I don't see how an action (you say "decision") reveals thoughts. There are many possible thoughts and non-thoughts behind any given action. 

I also don't understand your use of the word "problem" here.


----------



## PieceOfSky

NextTimeAround said:


> It seems that this situation supports a big difference that I see between men and women.
> 
> That is because women are more verbal, we put a name on something and therefore it is. Laila discussed having an exclusive romantic relationship with her future husband. She told him that it would not include PIV sex although they had already engaged in it at least once (and it's not completely clear that there were other forms of sexual affection) and he agreed to it. So she thought she had a deal.
> 
> However, it seems that instinctively, future husband felt that since the relationship did not include sex or sex in the way he wanted it, then he didn't see where he had an exclusive relationship that prevented him from engaging in an activity that his girlfriend refused to share with him anyway.
> 
> Like others, not saying that he is not wrong for what he did. But my identifying this difference between men and women has helped me to understand other situations that caused confusion.


NextTimeAround,

There are a few things there that I respectfully disagree with you about. 

I haven't read your thread(s), but if this is what you've concluded from the painful or confusing situations in your life, then I am sorry. 

I'm a man. I like to think I know myself pretty well, and I don't see this as a guy vs. girl thing. The EAs I've observed pretty closely in my life (my wife's, and, earlier, my father's), each had participants from both sexes who were culpable.

I also think of my self as pretty verbal, and words have very specific meanings to me. The hardest part of my wife's EA was her words -- decietful, bold-face lies.

There are all sorts of men. Some are like you seem to think most men are. Some are like I think I am. There are all sorts of women too.

I don't blame you if you've reached a "wrong" conclusion (maybe I'm wrong, here, too, and/or you are right). But, I do worry you have accepted a bar that is too low. There are men (and women) of integrity, and no one should settle for less.

Take care.


----------



## NextTimeAround

I came to my conclusion after thinking about situations in my 20s when I felt that I had had verbal agreement with a guy that we were just friends. And sometime later, I'm getting the kind of complaints that you would only expect from a boyfriend, like "I don't want to hear about your dates with other men." and so on.

and now I realise that even though these guys agreed verbally that we are just friends, he was considering the amount of time that we spend together,the sharing of private information and so on to mean that we had or we were moving towards an exclusive romantic relationship.

In other words, I was working off a label that was (verbally) mutually agreed to. And he was working off the de facto behaviors that you come to expect of an exclusive romantic relationship.

Now it makes perfect sense to me and I work on ensuring that my behaviors match the labels that I invoke. 

And as I see in this situation, since most people --both men and women would agree -- that a romantic exclusive relationship includes (conventional) sex, it may be that _subconsciously_, the future husband in this scenario did not believe that he had one since there was no sex as a part of it.

I mention this because it could be instructive for us all to look at the differences in communication between men and women.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

PieceOfSky said:


> I don't understand what you are saying here. I don't see how an action (you say "decision") reveals thoughts. There are many possible thoughts and non-thoughts behind any given action.
> 
> I also don't understand your use of the word "problem" here.


Well, in response to critism about stopping PIV, she quite bluntly said that he has no right to it until "he puts a ring on it first." She also notes that being a GF is different than being a husband. In view of that, why should she hold him to the same standards that one would hold a husband to when she clearly did hold herself to the standard of being a wife when she was merely a GF.

So by that action/decision, she may have unintentionally communicated that she did not view her relationship as seriously as he did. He might have considered their seriousness to be less than what they originally agreed to. It is not only words that we communicate with.

Again, it does not excuse him. He agreed to the arrangement and it is incumbent on him to speak up if it became a problem. It also may be the case that he is a selfish pr!ck who would have done this anyway. But I don't think we can dismiss this without at least exploring it as a factor to be addressed (among many).


----------



## Tall Average Guy

PieceOfSky said:


> I agree her doing thinking about her past actions is not inherently blame-shifting.
> 
> Still, in the context of earlier posts, I think the propensity for blameshifting is high here, and worthy of her own conscious analysis to resist and debunk when it occurs.


I certainly don't want to blame shift. I do think she has not been very had on him (I still think she needs to kick him out for a bit to get him to see the seriousness of this). Perhaps her confusion over how to move forward puts her at a greater risk of taking on too much blame. She (and those following her posts) should watch for that.

But I also don't want to lose sight of all the issues that they need to address.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Tall Average Guy said:


> Well, in response to critism about stopping PIV, she quite bluntly said that he has no right to it until "he puts a ring on it first." She also notes that being a GF is different than being a husband. In view of that, why should she hold him to the same standards that one would hold a husband to when she clearly did hold herself to the standard of being a wife when she was merely a GF.
> 
> So by that action/decision, she may have unintentionally communicated that she did not view her relationship as seriously as he did. He might have considered their seriousness to be less than what they originally agreed to. It is not only words that we communicate with.
> 
> Again, it does not excuse him. He agreed to the arrangement and it is incumbent on him to speak up if it became a problem. It also may be the case that he is a selfish pr!ck who would have done this anyway. *But I don't think we can dismiss this without at least exploring it as a factor to be addressed (among many).*


It would help others when they are trying to communicate to their own significant other. Labels are nice but it will help if both people in the couple agree what that label means exactly. If being an exclusive girlfriend means also continuing sexual affection as given before then it would be good for both members of the couple to articulate that.


----------



## arbitrator

If the engagement were already in effect, then I'd greatly say that the wayward one should be held accountable, just as in a marriage.

Now if it happened prior to ever entering a relationship with them, well that theoretically, is not really the business of anyone, unless of course that they were sleeping with other family members or mutual friends or acquaintances.


----------



## Blue Firefly

arbitrator said:


> If the engagement were already in effect, then I'd greatly say that the wayward one should be held accountable, just as in a marriage.


There were NOT engaged.


----------



## Suspecting

arbitrator said:


> If the engagement were already in effect, then I'd greatly say that the wayward one should be held accountable, just as in a marriage.
> 
> Now if it happened prior to ever entering a relationship with them, well that theoretically, is not really the business of anyone, unless of course that they were sleeping with other family members or mutual friends or acquaintances.


They were in an exclusive monogamous relationship at the time of his affair. Affair is the correct word now since it was sex multiple times with a long emotional affair. Doesn't matter if they were engaged or not he was unfaitful.


----------



## Blue Firefly

Suspecting said:


> They were in an *exclusive monogamous relationship* at the time of his affair. Affair is the correct word now since it was sex multiple times with a long emotional affair. Doesn't matter if they were engaged or not he was unfaitful.


The OP described it as an "exclusive relationship." You've added to her words.

And, as we've seen throughout this thread, the definition of exactly what an "exclusive relationship" means differs widely from person to person.

That, imho, is the core problem. The OP and her then boyfriend probably had different ideas of exactly what they were agreeing to, and different concepts of exactly where they were on their relationship journey.

She apparently thought it was tantamount to actually being engaged--an engagement without a ring. He apparently defined it differently (how, we don't know, because he isn't participating in this thread).

There has been a lot of projecting going on in this thread--a lot of people acting as if they know exactly what the OP and her then boyfriend were thinking at the time. The truth is we don't know what they were thinking, including the most important item: how they both defined the phrase "exclusive relationship."

Call it mismanaged expectations, a non-meeting of the minds, or whatever.


----------



## Suspecting

Blue Firefly, I think you are just trying to defend the cheater. Because he is a male wayward, which is rare on this forum?

If you start stretching what exclusive means, what stops one to interpret it the same way when engaged? "I only promised to marry, didn't agree I can't have threesomes with other people."


----------



## Laila8

Blue Firefly said:


> The OP described it as an "exclusive relationship." You've added to her words.
> 
> And, as we've seen throughout this thread, the definition of exactly what an "exclusive relationship" means differs widely from person to person.
> 
> That, imho, is the core problem. The OP and her then boyfriend probably had different ideas of exactly what they were agreeing to, and different concepts of exactly where they were on their relationship journey.
> 
> She apparently thought it was tantamount to actually being engaged--an engagement without a ring. *He apparently defined it differently (how, we don't know, because he isn't participating in this thread)*.
> 
> There has been a lot of projecting going on in this thread--a lot of people acting as if they know exactly what the OP and her then boyfriend were thinking at the time. The truth is we don't know what they were thinking, including the most important item: how they both defined the phrase "exclusive relationship."
> 
> Call it mismanaged expectations, a non-meeting of the minds, or whatever.


When my H asked me to be exclusive with him, his words were "to NOT see other people." That was what exclusive meant to him. And he asked me to be exclusive long before we first had sex. So apparently we can't see other people, but we can bang them? How convenient for him!  I never got that memo.


----------



## Laila8

PieceOfSky said:


> Stop, please.
> 
> You had your reasons at the time. Don't allow anyone to shame you into imagining "bad" reasons were "probably" the ones.
> 
> I can imagine some "good" reasons you might have stopped.
> 
> Lest we forget, he wasn't cut off completely from you sexually. You stopped having PIV, but IIRC you were still sexually intimate with each other in other ways - and, IMHO, that is a very loving gift.
> 
> *Also, it is a leap to think this would not have happened if you had been PIV-ing him daily. *
> 
> Please resist the urge to participate in blameshifting to yourself.


Hi PieceofSky,

According to my H, he says exactly that--if we had been having frequent, regular sex, he would not have started the whole flirtation with the OW. He assumed I just didn't like him anymore when I stopped sex.


----------



## Laila8

Hardtohandle said:


> My wife either did or was looking to. I caught her looking someone up online 1 month before our wedding. she cried and begged and pleaded nothing happen it was something stupid she did looking up this man, but nothing more. I never found out the truth as I rug swept it. I was 25k in the hole for a wedding and 5k for a honeymoon. Mind you when I say I was 30k in a hole. I mean I was, I paid for the whole wedding, not her family, not mine.. MEEE.. This was as I paid for her college as well. I worked 3 jobs, cop, and 2 security jobs. I would leave monday morning and would come home wednesday night.
> 
> She eventually went on to look to cheat 3 other times during our 19 year relationship. She was caught 2 times looking to cheat and on the 3rd time I failed to keep the fox out of the hen house.
> 
> After all I've been through with her and stuck by her side after 19 years she kicks me to the curb like a piece of sh1t.
> 
> At 45 with 2 boys, I need to start my life over. I love my kids with *ALL MY HEART*.
> 
> If any of my kids had the numbers 666 imprinted on their heads, I can tell you hell would rein on earth because I could never hurt them.
> 
> BUT that being said. I wish I left her when I caught her the first time. Mind you those are the times I only know about.


I'm SO sorry, Hardtohandle.  Your wife is just a rotten person to do that to you. You deserve someone who will appreciate you and treat you with respect.


----------



## Laila8

Tall Average Guy said:


> I certainly don't want to blame shift. *I do think she has not been very had on him (I still think she needs to kick him out for a bit to get him to see the seriousness of this).* Perhaps her confusion over how to move forward puts her at a greater risk of taking on too much blame. She (and those following her posts) should watch for that.
> 
> But I also don't want to lose sight of all the issues that they need to address.


TAG, you really think so? Won't that be a little overkill? I've definitely put him through the ringer for the past week. He looks pretty sad and hasn't eaten much.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Laila619 said:


> TAG, you really think so? Won't that be a little overkill? I've definitely put him through the ringer for the past week. He looks pretty sad and hasn't eaten much.


Well, you tell me. What do you mean by through the wringer? I got the impression that other than some yelling, he was not seeing what you he had done. If that is not true (that is he seems to get it), then perhaps kicking him out of the house is too far. Maybe just to the couch?

My point is that some consequences are necessary, for both of you. You, to at least lessen the idea that he got away with it (though you will never feel he has fully paid up). Him, so the he sees you being strong, as well avoiding his feeling that cheap forgiven means he might be able to do it again.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Laila619 said:


> According to my H, he says exactly that--if we had been having frequent, regular sex, he would not have started the whole flirtation with the OW. He assumed I just didn't like him anymore when I stopped sex.


I know I would have felt this way about the relationship as well.

That does not excuse his actions, or even mean that he is correct in his conclusion.


----------



## Laila8

Tall Average Guy said:


> Well, you tell me. What do you mean by through the wringer? *I got the impression that other than some yelling, he was not seeing what you he had done. If that is not true (that is he seems to get it), then perhaps kicking him out of the house is too far. Maybe just to the couch?*
> 
> My point is that some consequences are necessary, for both of you. You, to at least lessen the idea that he got away with it (though you will never feel he has fully paid up). Him, so the he sees you being strong, as well avoiding his feeling that cheap forgiven means he might be able to do it again.


I don't know if he "gets it" per se (he still sometimes seems bewildered at my reaction/pain), but he hates seeing me unhappy and crying obviously. So he is moping around looking glum, and he hasn't eaten much. He keeps insisting though, that when he banged her, that he thought I didn't like him anymore and that I was going to break up with him. So maybe he was trying to line up a new girlfriend for when he thought I was going to dump him? Only I never did, so he stayed with me.


----------



## tulsy

Suspecting said:


> I will answer this since you quoted my post. Some of you keep bringing the sex again and again. Everyone has a right to refrain from sex if they want to. However, I would think there's more to a marriage than that. Are you with your spouse for sex only?


_Is there more to marriage than just sex?_

Yes, of course.

_doesn't everyone have a right to refrain from sex?_

Yes, of course.

Saying that, when you are in a relationship and decide you no longer want to have sex, you are essentially forcing the other person to not have sex, are you not?

So you have cheated the person out of a sex life.

Is this fair? No. 
Is this what you signed up for when you agreed to forsake all others? No.


And since you asked, NO, I'm not with my spouse for sex only...but if the sex stopped on her end, I'm not cool with that. Sex is a very big deal to most people. I don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to have sex with me. Period.

I also mentioned in my post that regardless of her ridiculous idea to stop sex after having it with him for months [(and she also said he wasn't her first, but I'm guessing she never forced the first guy to stop) also she never explained why, but it appears it was just a way to get him to marry her for the sex to continue], he still cheated and hid it from her, and that is really wrong. He should have come clean before they were married, IMO.


----------



## tulsy

Laila619 said:


> I don't know if he "gets it" per se (he still sometimes seems bewildered at my reaction/pain), but he hates seeing me unhappy and crying obviously. So he is moping around looking glum, and he hasn't eaten much. He keeps insisting though, that when he banged her, that *he thought I didn't like him anymore and that I was going to break up with him*. So maybe he was trying to line up a new girlfriend for when he thought I was going to dump him? Only I never did, so he stayed with me.


Ya, well if my girl stopped having sex with me, I would be depressed. I would feel like she wasn't attracted to me anymore. I would move on to someone else too....someone who desires me.

I would tell her before we got married what happened and why. I would have come clean before we got married. I realize he probably kept it from you because he was afraid to lose you, but that's still a really chitty thing to keep from you.

I hope you guys can get through this together. It sounds like you both love each other, this was a long time ago, he wouldn't normally have gone and screwed around on you but he felt like you weren't into him anymore and pursued sex with someone who did want him.

Sucks.


----------



## Suspecting

tulsy said:


> _Is there more to marriage than just sex?_
> 
> Yes, of course.
> 
> _doesn't everyone have a right to refrain from sex?_
> 
> Yes, of course.
> 
> Saying that, when you are in a relationship and decide you no longer want to have sex, you are essentially forcing the other person to not have sex, are you not?
> 
> So you have cheated the person out of a sex life.
> 
> Is this fair? No.
> Is this what you signed up for when you agreed to forsake all others? No.
> 
> 
> And since you asked, NO, I'm not with my spouse for sex only...but if the sex stopped on her end, I'm not cool with that. Sex is a very big deal to most people. I don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to have sex with me. Period.
> 
> I also mentioned in my post that regardless of her ridiculous idea to stop sex after having it with him for months [(and she also said he wasn't her first, but I'm guessing she never forced the first guy to stop) also she never explained why, but it appears it was just a way to get him to marry her for the sex to continue], he still cheated and hid it from her, and that is really wrong. He should have come clean before they were married, IMO.


No one is forcing you to not have sex. If you are not cool with the amount of sex you get from your SO, you first talk about it and if they don't agree, you then make a decision if you want to stay with that person or not. You do not cheat.

Why are we even discussing about this on a marriage forum? Why do you feel you need to excuse and defend cheating?


----------



## Laila8

tulsy said:


> Y*a, well if my girl stopped having sex with me, I would be depressed. I would feel like she wasn't attracted to me anymore. I would move on to someone else too....someone who desires me.*


Well obviously I'm a woman and not a man, but if I were a man, I don't think I would assume she didn't like me anymore. I obviously liked him if I kept seeing him and being affectionate with him. If I were a guy, I would think that maybe she just wants a more long-term commitment (i.e. a proposal) to feel secure sleeping with me. 

In any case, I do realize men and women think very differently.


----------



## tulsy

Suspecting said:


> No one is forcing you to not have sex. If you are not cool with the amount of sex you get from your SO, you first talk about it and if they don't agree, you then make a decision if you want to stay with that person or not. You do not cheat.
> 
> Why are we even discussing about this on a marriage forum? Why do you feel you need to excuse and defend cheating?


What is wrong with you? You have a problem with comprehension? Never have I defended or excused cheating.

Re-read my posts or get bent.


----------



## Suspecting

tulsy said:


> What is wrong with you? You have a problem with comprehension? Never have I defended or excused cheating.
> 
> Re-read my posts or get bent.


Nothing wrong with me. Why you think there is? Calm down? No need to get your pants in a twist over this.


----------



## Blue Firefly

tulsy said:


> I hope you guys can get through this together. It sounds like you both love each other, this was a long time ago, he wouldn't normally have gone and screwed around on you but he felt like you weren't into him anymore and pursued sex with someone who did want him.


They won't if she continues to stay on this forum. 

Too many people projecting their own situations; too many people advising that the husband must be punished at all costs; too many people stoking her anger and hurt; too many people pushing her to blow up her marriage.

IMHO, they aren't going to make it through this.


----------



## thatbpguy

Well Tulsy, some men think only with their "genetilia" and some with their minds & hearts (adjectives like ‘respect’ and ‘commitment’ come to mind). Her guy is the former. He also clearly lacked respect for her. They were dating and she wanted to hold off a bit on the sex until marriage. So he went looking elsewhere for his sex.


----------



## Laila8

Blue Firefly said:


> They won't if she continues to stay on this forum.
> 
> Too many people projecting their own situations; too many people advising that the husband must be punished at all costs; too many people stoking her anger and hurt; too many people pushing her to blow up her marriage.
> 
> IMHO, they aren't going to make it through this.


Hi Blue Firefly, 

You sound really sure that what he did isn't that big of a deal since we weren't married. Did you read what my H's definition of 'exclusive' was? IMO, this whole thing has shown me that he has bad character and inability to resist temptation. How can I trust him now? There are beautiful women everywhere and unfortunately it's easy to find a willing affair partner these days if one wants to.


----------



## thatbpguy

So, Laila, what are you going to do about all this?


----------



## Laila8

thatbpguy said:


> So, Laila, what are you going to do about all this?


thatbpguy, stay with him, but forever feel the need to check his e-mail/cell/texts. And get suspicious any time he says he's working late. Sounds like a fun way to live, huh? 

And even if he never cheats again as long as we both live, I'll know he was capable of it, and maybe he just didn't get another opportunity.


----------



## thatbpguy

Laila619 said:


> thatbpguy, stay with him, but forever feel the need to check his e-mail/cell/texts. And get suspicious any time he says he's working late. Sounds like a fun way to live, huh?


I think this is the best way to handle it. You are being wise. He betrayed you once and then deceived you about it for years but since marriage appears to be faithful. 

So now you have made your decision, a few things...

1) Even if you need some talk therapy, do find a professional (rather than us) and get some insight from them. I recommend a female counselor so she can identify better with what you are going through.

2) I'm split on the monitoring stuff as it can eat you alive with suspicion, but if any red flags are set off then look into it closely. If you find nothing, drop it cold.

3) Forge a way to trust again to some degree- for your sake and his as well.


----------



## Blue Firefly

Laila619 said:


> Hi Blue Firefly,
> 
> You sound really sure that what he did isn't that big of a deal since we weren't married. Did you read what my H's definition of 'exclusive' was? IMO, this whole thing has shown me that he has bad character and inability to resist temptation. How can I trust him now? There are beautiful women everywhere and unfortunately it's easy to find a willing affair partner these days if one wants to.


You're right. The past 5 years when he has been a wonderful husband and father mean nothing. He hasn't done anything over that time to show you that you can trust him.

You can't be 100% guarantee he'll be faithful in the future. So go ahead, blow up your family, because of what MIGHT happen in the future. Let your fear decide the day; let your fear run your life.

Better the tragedy of a divorce now, than a future of uncertainty; a future where he MIGHT be unfaithful or he MIGHT be 100% faithful. OMG, the agony of not knowing 100% exactly how the future will play out; nobody should have to live like that.

You should divorce him now (and ensure your children grow up without their father in the house).

Whatever you do, don't learn to handle or control your fears. Let them control you. That's the only way to live your life; the only way to avoid the possibility of pain sometime in the far, distant future.


----------



## Suspecting

Blue Firefly, I don't think you get it. She has lost her trust to her husband. You can't get that back that easily once it's lost.


----------



## Blue Firefly

Suspecting said:


> Blue Firefly, I don't think you get it. She has lost her trust to her husband. You can't get that back that easily once it's lost.


I get it. She no longer trusts her husband and never will.

And if that's the case, then the only logical solution is to divorce her husband so she can avoid any problems that might possibly occur in the future.


----------



## thatbpguy

Blue Firefly said:


> I get it. She no longer trusts her husband and never will.
> 
> And if that's the case, then the only logical solution is to divorce her husband so she can avoid any problems that might possibly occur in the future.


Or work on learning how to trust again.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Laila619 said:


> Well obviously I'm a woman and not a man, but if I were a man, I don't think I would assume she didn't like me anymore. I obviously liked him if I kept seeing him and being affectionate with him. If I were a guy, I would think that maybe she just wants a more long-term commitment (i.e. a proposal) to feel secure sleeping with me.
> 
> In any case, I do realize men and women think very differently.


I think that is pretty clear. Most guys perceive stopping sex as moving backwards in the relationship. You felt secure enough to sleep with him in the beginning, so the idea that you need a proposal to suddenly feel secure does not make sense.


----------



## tulsy

thatbpguy said:


> Well Tulsy, some men think only with their "genetilia" and some with their minds & hearts (adjectives like ‘respect’ and ‘commitment’ come to mind). Her guy is the former. He also clearly lacked respect for her. They were dating and she wanted to hold off a bit on the sex until marriage. So he went looking elsewhere for his sex.


Not exactly...they were having sex....for months. And he's not her first, so the behavior is unexpected. She decided to control the sex by turning off the tap until marriage.

I'm not defending the guy. He cheated, and he kept it from her...and she married him only to find out after marriage that this happened. That is a horrible thing to do to someone.

I'm saying is that is terrible thing to do to someone, and he should have told her what he did before they got married. Go one step further and he should never have done it in the first place....but he did do it....and then he kept it from her...and then she finds out the truth after marriage. It's devastating for her.

*Not taking away from that at all*, I am still wondering why she decided to stop giving him sex. *The one does not excuse the other, so do not misunderstand*. I'm simply wondering the motive here...why she would give him essentially an ultimatum, if you want more sex you will have to marry me for it.

I do not think his behavior is excusable. The relationship was exclusive, and he cheated. 

I also have the opinion that denying your partner of sex is a form of cheating. It's cheating the person out of a sex life. It does NOT give someone a green light to cheat on their partner. You want to have sex with someone else, you should break up with the person you are with.

She was cheating him out a sex life. He did wrong by her. It's NOT her fault. He chose to cheat.

I totally understand that her trust in him is shattered because of this. I still think the relationship is salvageable. 

I think that they could work through this. I think they should get some help and try to deal with the situation. It's a long road but I think in this case it's worth a shot. 

I'm gonna quote one more thing, only because I can sort of relate to how the guy must have felt. I DO NOT DEFEND WHAT HE DID, I'm simply offering what I think the young man felt when she denied him sex. I think that ultimately, this is what led to his pre-marital infidelity, BUT IT DOES NOT EXCUSE IT.

_"Sexual rejection, especially by someone who vowed to "love, honor and cleave unto" you is devastating. It leaves you feeling unattractive and undesirable. You may internalize her rejection and blame yourself by thinking you are not attractive enough; sexy enough, thin enough, smart enough. Her actions will give root to unhealthy beliefs about yourself and your value as a person. There is the danger of depression, loss of hope, you may feel old before your time and there is certainly a sense of shame. Shame over the fact that your own spouse does not desire you. This shame keeps you from sharing your problems with someone else. You find yourself with no support system and the growing belief that there is something terribly wrong with you."_

I still think it's horrible what he did, and I understand how hard it would be to trust him. I just think it's worth a shot in this instance.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Laila619 said:


> I don't know if he "gets it" per se (he still sometimes seems bewildered at my reaction/pain), but he hates seeing me unhappy and crying obviously. So he is moping around looking glum, and he hasn't eaten much.


Again, it does not seem like all that much, though perhaps you are underselling it. What has he done or suggested beyond what you have asked for? Counseling, transparency, answered questions? My initial reaction is him waiting for this to pass, but I am not there.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Laila619 said:


> thatbpguy, stay with him, but forever feel the need to check his e-mail/cell/texts. And get suspicious any time he says he's working late. Sounds like a fun way to live, huh?
> 
> And even if he never cheats again as long as we both live, I'll know he was capable of it, and maybe he just didn't get another opportunity.


If that is your actually plan, I advise divorce now. That is no way to live in a marriage.

If that is your short term plan, with the goal to work together so that he can establish trust (which may take years), then that makes sense.


----------



## Laila8

Tall Average Guy said:


> Again, it does not seem like all that much, though perhaps you are underselling it. What has he done or suggested beyond what you have asked for? Counseling, transparency, answered questions? My initial reaction is him waiting for this to pass, but I am not there.


He's been answering questions and he has always given me full transparency when it comes to his phone/e-mail/all passwords. Other than that, plus looking sad? Not much.


----------



## Suspecting

tulsy, I think the sex issue is irrelevant at this point and you repeating it is getting old already. Even if you don't say it straight, you are trying to shift some blame of his cheating to Laila619. That is not right nor fair. He could have talked to her and figure it out but he chose not to. Maybe ask "do you still love me?", if that's what he was wondering. It's not hard.


----------



## Laila8

Catherine602 said:


> I think he is too sure of you. If he feared losing you his attitude would not be so cavelier. Let him feel that you have options.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He already knows I have options. Between the two of us, I am more attractive and in better shape. I have male friends, but he has no female friends. 

But do you really think that's the issue? He cheated because I stopped sex and he no longer thought I liked him. He didn't cheat because he was sure of me. I think it was the opposite, that he was unsure of me and whether I liked him, and I wasn't giving him enough attention.


----------



## thatbpguy

tulsy said:


> Not exactly...they were having sex....for months. And he's not her first, so the behavior is unexpected. She decided to control the sex by turning off the tap until marriage.
> 
> I'm not defending the guy. He cheated, and he kept it from her...and she married him only to find out after marriage that this happened. That is a horrible thing to do to someone.
> 
> I'm saying is that is terrible thing to do to someone, and he should have told her what he did before they got married. Go one step further and he should never have done it in the first place....but he did do it....and then he kept it from her...and then she finds out the truth after marriage. It's devastating for her.
> 
> *Not taking away from that at all*, I am still wondering why she decided to stop giving him sex. *The one does not excuse the other, so do not misunderstand*. I'm simply wondering the motive here...why she would give him essentially an ultimatum, if you want more sex you will have to marry me for it.
> 
> I do not think his behavior is excusable. The relationship was exclusive, and he cheated.
> 
> I also have the opinion that denying your partner of sex is a form of cheating. It's cheating the person out of a sex life. It does NOT give someone a green light to cheat on their partner. You want to have sex with someone else, you should break up with the person you are with.
> 
> She was cheating him out a sex life. He did wrong by her. It's NOT her fault. He chose to cheat.
> 
> I totally understand that her trust in him is shattered because of this. I still think the relationship is salvageable.
> 
> I think that they could work through this. I think they should get some help and try to deal with the situation. It's a long road but I think in this case it's worth a shot.
> 
> I'm gonna quote one more thing, only because I can sort of relate to how the guy must have felt. I DO NOT DEFEND WHAT HE DID, I'm simply offering what I think the young man felt when she denied him sex. I think that ultimately, this is what led to his pre-marital infidelity, BUT IT DOES NOT EXCUSE IT.
> 
> _"Sexual rejection, especially by someone who vowed to "love, honor and cleave unto" you is devastating. It leaves you feeling unattractive and undesirable. You may internalize her rejection and blame yourself by thinking you are not attractive enough; sexy enough, thin enough, smart enough. Her actions will give root to unhealthy beliefs about yourself and your value as a person. There is the danger of depression, loss of hope, you may feel old before your time and there is certainly a sense of shame. Shame over the fact that your own spouse does not desire you. This shame keeps you from sharing your problems with someone else. You find yourself with no support system and the growing belief that there is something terribly wrong with you."_
> 
> I still think it's horrible what he did, and I understand how hard it would be to trust him. I just think it's worth a shot in this instance.


To answer your post let me say this...

My first wife (the betrayer) and I had sex before marriage. She opted to stop because she wanted it to be that one aspect of marriage we didn't have now to make it just a bit more special. Also, she told me, as a religious woman she felt some guilt and also wanted to know I still loved her aside from the sex.

I will admit I wasn't wild about the idea, but I respected her for wanting to do what was right for her.

So those are a few possible reasons why a woman would stop the sex during a relationship.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Laila619 said:


> He's been answering questions and he has always given me full transparency when it comes to his phone/e-mail/all passwords. Other than that, plus looking sad? Not much.


So what do you need from him? Do some research (here and in books) and figure out what you need from him to start moving forward.

I do seriously mean my advice above regarding divorce if you are going to coast on this. You will be miserable and so will he. This will take a lot of work. He needs to do most of the heavy lifting, but you will need to work on forgiving him and trying to let go some of the anger. 

Again, you deserve better than a marriage where you are one foot out the door. Your child deserves better than having that as their example.


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## PieceOfSky

thatbpguy said:


> So those are a few possible reasons why a woman would stop the sex during a relationship.


Laila619,

What were the reasons you told him at the time for stopping it?

What did you think, at the time, were your true reasons (if different or more complex than you told him)?

And, finally, looking back from now, as a more experienced and mature adult, do you now think the reasons (stated or unstated) at the time were accurate?



FWIW, I agree with those that say taking sexual intimacy away can be a real heartbreaker for a guy; a blow to one's self-esteem. (I am sure it can be for a woman too.) Even when that is not the intent of the one who withholds. (Speaking from the perspective of a man in an intimacy-starved marriage. And, also, as a man who has only had one lover in my life.)


Also, there is a thing or two I hope you will really consider as possibilities:

1) The description you gave about what sort of future you are going to have together is based on flawed premises. There are other sorts of futures together possible to you -- much more positive ones -- and, if I had to guess, you are smart enough and honest enough and determined enough -- AND he is, at his core, similarly made -- that you will find motivation and strength to get through this. People do. Why not you and him? Why not the mother and father of your beautiful children?

2) None of us are perfect. People make mistakes. Sometimes the motivators behind the mistakes, if we knew them, would make us feel like sh!t. But, usually, we don't know the true motivations (nor does the betrayer). So, usually, all we have left to think about are the motivations we fear the most. That's a very difficult burden for the betrayed. But, there are things one can learn to cope with such fears; some people learn them; some people emerge from these situations healthier -- with more resiliency, and with conviction and ability to find joy and happiness, and settle for nothing less. My hunch is you are one that will find the happier path.

3) None of us are perfect. People make mistakes (yes, I meant to repeat that). Mistakes don't define people, though patterns of mistakes do. Nothing says you have to figure out your husband's true nature at this moment. In the scheme of his entire life, and of your time spent together, the events with that woman may have been a big exception to the pattern he has lived and will live. Who knows? (Keep your eyes open, of course. But, don't feel like you have to figure it all out right now.)


With my wife's EA (during marriage), I was completely unsuspecting that she would ever lie, and lie, and lie about it. It hurt, but I see that's not her essence. And, that most of the time, she has offered me much worth loving. One never HAS to take the good with the bad, but, sometimes, taking the good with the bad is still a pretty good deal -- all things considered.


Well, I'm rambling... I just wanted you to consider that maybe there is more reason to hope than you know. The wound is fresh. TAM is full of heartbroken and betrayed people. Don't be fooled into thinking you know your future. You will get through this and to happier days.


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## NextTimeAround

As they say in the legal profession, hard cases make bad law.

This is a difficult situation in which to take unequivocally one side or the other. It is a case of mixed messages and mixed understandings. As far as dealing with the case at hand, I can only wish Laila peace with whichever course of action she decides to take with her husband.

As for those who might only be at the foot of a similar situation, it would be instructive to contemplate the mixed messages that were given here.

Firstly, even as a woman, I can't understand why a man or woman would choose to stop having sex with someone they are having an exclusive relationship with. that is one of the signals that the non sexual partner is fooling around / having second thoughts about the relationship.

Secondly, popular song lyrics aside, the expression or even the thought of "put a ring on it" is offensive. Especially when it is applied specifically for sex.... as if it were a commodity to be bought / as if that were the bargaining chip that women still have to "seal the deal."

IF a guy were to ask me my opinion as to whether he should exclusively date a woman forgoing sex because marriage is in the offing but as yet not guaranteed, I would suggest that he contemplate how he might feel if the relationship never progressed on to marriage; the two of you break up and then you find out that she's already having sex with another guy she's gone out with for 2 weeks. 

For women to understand how that might feel, we could ask ourselves how we might feel if our exclusive boyfriend with whom we're talking marriage to, insisted that everything be cut down the middle in cost; he may even bring a calculator to use on a dinner date. We faithfully tot up everything and pay our fair share for the next 2 years until one or both of us decide that marriage is not an option. And within 2 weeks he's wining and dining another woman. How might we feel?

I do read about the growing movement of women who insist upon waiting until marriage to have sex again and there do seem to be some interesting ironies in implementing this policy.

1. Some of these women are never married non virgins. Some of whom claim that they have been used and abused by men so I guess this is their way to reclaiming control in their life. This is not a positive way to start a relationship.

2. Everyone has a different view on the different types of sex. Some people think vaginal penetration is more intimate than oral penetration or vice versa. Some people think vaginal and oral are equally intimate and therefore, no modesty / intimacy / whatever is retained or protected. 

I had a classmate who told me that she wasn't having sex with a guy she was dating but she was blowing him. I told my boyfriend and male friend about it. One said, well, that guy has hit pay dirt. My boyfriend called it buffing his knob. I don't think that guy saw his lady friend's virtue being protected in the process.

Even if this discussion doesn't help Laila in her current situation, exploring these issues -- the differences bwetween men and woman and the differences in communication between men and women -- will be helpful to others and even to Laila if she chooses to move on from her current marriage.

I think we all want to become better at managing our relationships including being proactive from the beginning. Just like in business, the good managers are always looking to improve their methods because they know that low employee turnover is a good thing overall and over the long run. 

Just like in personal relationships, having a high turnover of spouses, partners and even friends isn't a particulalry positive pattern to have either.


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## lisab0105

Laila has said she is not going to end her marriage and she doesn't want to break up her family. BUT...what her husband did needs to stop being chalked up to being human, or a mistake by TAMer's when I have seen the same posters refer to similar situations very differently. 

Cheating is NOT a mistake. It is calculated and purposeful. I am going to bet that her husband wasn't questioning how she felt about him, because from the sounds of it, Laila made that perfectly clear. Especially since they were still physical, just not having intercourse. But in the end, he wanted to get laid. So he did. And he lied about it..for a long long time. 

People need to stop trying to justify/explain away his actions, especially because they weren't even engaged yet. It's a load of crap. And, again, if Laila was a man talking about having the same problem, the tone from certain posters and the advice here would be very very very different. 

Laila, you are going to go through the SAME emotional roller coaster everyone of us that have been cheated on is and has gone through. The status of your relationship at the time does not matter. Hurt is hurt. 

Your husband was wrong in every way possible and his insistence on lying to you until you literally pried it out of him shows that he has not grown from his horrible experience. 
Tread very carefully with him in the trust department. If he was able to lie to you so well with this, you really have no idea what else he could have been lying about.


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## PieceOfSky

lisab0105 said:


> ...what her husband did needs to stop being chalked up to being human, or a mistake by TAMer's when I have seen the same posters refer to similar situations very differently.


In case my post above stating "People make mistakes" left anyone the impression I am chalking it up to be human, I want to emphatically deny that. "Mistake" was a poor choice of words on my part.

I am saying ONE consciously-chosen betrayal (and the weasily trickle truthing) like this does not necessarily reveal his character, BUT a pattern of betrayal and deceit like this WOULD. If Laila619 does not know enough now about him and his behavior at this point, she should not feel it is required for her to make a judgement AT THIS MOMENT.

It's real pain, a real betrayal, and he is really responsible. No doubt.


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## lisab0105

PieceOfSky said:


> In case my post above stating "People make mistakes" left anyone the impression I am chalking it up to be human, I want to emphatically deny that.
> 
> I am saying ONE mistake (and the weasily trickle truhtinf) like this does not necessarily reveal his character, BUT a pattern of mistakes like this WOULD. If Laila619 does not know enough now about him and his behavior at this point, she should not feel it is required for her to make a judgement AT THIS MOMENT.
> 
> It's real pain, a real betrayal, and he is really responsible. No doubt.


POS, I actually have not seen the post where you referred to this as a mistake, I was speaking of earlier posts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieceOfSky

lisab0105 said:


> POS, I actually have not seen the post where you referred to this as a mistake, I was speaking of earlier posts.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I thought you were not necessarily referring to me, but you brought up a very good point and I felt it important to clarify my stance, lest anyone get the wrong message from me.


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## Tall Average Guy

Laila619 said:


> He's been answering questions and he has always given me full transparency when it comes to his phone/e-mail/all passwords. Other than that, plus looking sad? Not much.


The following has been posted for others who have been cheated on. Perhaps there are things here that may be helpful to you and your husband. 

Print this off and make your wife read it:

Read this:

Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.

Rejoice in your renewed commitment to spend your lives together in happiness. Celebrate it together regularly!
Share


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## Laila8

NextTimeAround said:


> As they say in the legal profession, hard cases make bad law.
> 
> This is a difficult situation in which to take unequivocally one side or the other. It is a case of mixed messages and mixed understandings. As far as dealing with the case at hand, I can only wish Laila peace with whichever course of action she decides to take with her husband.
> 
> As for those who might only be at the foot of a similar situation, it would be instructive to contemplate the mixed messages that were given here.
> 
> Firstly, even as a woman, I can't understand why a man or woman would choose to stop having sex with someone they are having an exclusive relationship with. that is one of the signals that the non sexual partner is fooling around / having second thoughts about the relationship.
> 
> Secondly, popular song lyrics aside, the expression or even the thought of "put a ring on it" is offensive. Especially when it is applied specifically for sex.... as if it were a commodity to be bought / as if that were the bargaining chip that women still have to "seal the deal."


I don't think it's offensive at all. I think what's offensive is a boyfriend who has not committed to a woman in any real, permanent way but who thinks he is owed sex, or else he can just get it somewhere else. There is a big difference between a boyfriend and a husband, and it's silly to pretend otherwise.


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## Rags

ok, maybe this is a thread I can really contribute to, and maybe even offer a useful perspective.

Before I got married, having left university and now in a serious relationship with my girlfriend, she went away (to stay with her parents) for the summer. During that time, I went out for a meal with my old HS girlfriend.
Yes, I know it was a stupid thing to do (now) but then it didn't occur to me how dangerous it was. There was no plan to do anything besides catch up - and we had a nice time - but then it got late and I'd missed the last train and there was nowhere for me to stay, except her room.
And of course, having been going out for a couple of years, we were comfortable with eachother and had no sense of personal space. So we fell back into doing what had been habitual. (We didn't have sex in any of its specific varieties, but there lots of touching - as HS kids do...)
Afterwards I felt awful about it. I went to visit my girlfriend, and told her what had happened - full confession without having been 'caught' or there being any other obligation to admit it, besides how I felt about dishonesty.
My girlfriend wasn't very happy about, obviously. But she told me that she'd been of the opinion that she would try to give a relationship one chance after a mistake like that. And that was my chance.

I proposed to her a few months later, we married a few months after that, and recently celebrated our 17 anniversary.

We have had no issues of that nature since, and on the occasions where opportunities have presented themselves, I have shut them down fast.
People can learn from their mistakes.

In this situation, which seems to mirror my own fairly closely, it looks like your husband did learn and is unlikely to do anything so stupid again.

My advice would be, be thankful that he discovered it before you married him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lisab0105

OMG LOL 

The fact that your hubby's/then BF cheating has now been reduced to "mixed understandings and mixed messages" is laughable to me. 

Laila stopped having sex with him, therefore, while still bad, not as bad as it could have been??? No offense, but that's absolutely gross. 

And, Rags...while you did the honest thing and confessed to your GF, Laila's didn't. He perpetuated the lie with more lies. That and you didn't go all the way. Laila's did. 

Laila made a personal choice that was best for her. Her hubby had a choice to use his words and he didn't. He took the easy (pun intended) way out and then continued to lie about it for years. There is no grey area here. 

No one EVER has an excuse to cheat. Not Boyfriends, fiancé's or husbands. Any further attempts to justify or explain away his actions on TAM will probably convince me that it has been taken over by pod people.


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## Rags

Well, bearing in mind:



> DH has been a loyal husband and has never even remotely come close to cheating on me since we got married. He is a loving, attentive husband and father, we have a great sex life, he tells me I'm beautiful all the time, etc. He is an open book, I have no worries about his faithfulness.


It would seem that, despite the differences, the final result is the same - he learned, and made himself better because of it.
There's lots to lose here - and I don't see that there's a need to do so.


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## workindad

Op if you could lay out a plan of action for your husband to follow to help heal yourself and your marriage what would it look like.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aug

Rags said:


> Afterwards I felt awful about it. I went to visit my girlfriend, and told her what had happened *- full confession without having been 'caught' or there being any other obligation to admit it*, besides how I felt about dishonesty.
> My girlfriend wasn't very happy about, obviously. But she told me that she'd been of the opinion that she would try to give a relationship one chance after a mistake like that. And that was my chance.
> 
> I proposed to her a few months later, we married a few months after that, and recently celebrated our 17 anniversary.
> 
> We have had no issues of that nature since, and on the occasions where opportunities have presented themselves, I have shut them down fast.
> People can learn from their mistakes.
> 
> In this situation, which seems to mirror my own fairly closely,* it looks like your husband did learn and is unlikely to do anything so stupid again.*
> 
> My advice would be, be thankful that he discovered it before you married him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



The key difference is that you confessed voluntary, right away.

OP's husband carried on for a month, kept it a secret, and only confessed gradually after caught.


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## Tall Average Guy

Laila619 said:


> I don't think it's offensive at all. I think what's offensive is a boyfriend who has not committed to a woman in any real, permanent way but who thinks he is owed sex, or else he can just get it somewhere else. There is a big difference between a boyfriend and a husband, and it's silly to pretend otherwise.


I find this post more than a bit troubling. Of course you don't owe him sex, and you certainly were not his husband. But if so, why are you holding him to the same standards as you would expect of a husband? By your own post you two were "not committed ... in any real, permanent way." Why does the fact that he had no ring on his finger not play into this analysis as well? 

Look, I have tried to be supportive but this post certain sounds like you want it both ways - he should have acted like a husband while you got to act like a GF. He absolutely should have talked to you about any issues he had with the arrangement. He has no excuse for not doing that. But if your position was there was not any real commitment (remember, those are your words, not anyone else's), then why are you so upset over the fact that he in fact acted like there was no real commitment?


----------



## Suspecting

Rags said:


> ok, maybe this is a thread I can really contribute to, and maybe even offer a useful perspective.
> 
> Before I got married, having left university and now in a serious relationship with my girlfriend, she went away (to stay with her parents) for the summer. During that time, I went out for a meal with my old HS girlfriend.
> Yes, I know it was a stupid thing to do (now) but then it didn't occur to me how dangerous it was. There was no plan to do anything besides catch up - and we had a nice time - but then it got late and I'd missed the last train and there was nowhere for me to stay, except her room.
> And of course, having been going out for a couple of years, we were comfortable with eachother and had no sense of personal space. So we fell back into doing what had been habitual. (We didn't have sex in any of its specific varieties, but there lots of touching - as HS kids do...)
> Afterwards I felt awful about it. I went to visit my girlfriend, and told her what had happened - full confession without having been 'caught' or there being any other obligation to admit it, besides how I felt about dishonesty.
> My girlfriend wasn't very happy about, obviously. But she told me that she'd been of the opinion that she would try to give a relationship one chance after a mistake like that. And that was my chance.
> 
> I proposed to her a few months later, we married a few months after that, and recently celebrated our 17 anniversary.
> 
> We have had no issues of that nature since, and on the occasions where opportunities have presented themselves, I have shut them down fast.
> People can learn from their mistakes.
> 
> In this situation, which seems to mirror my own fairly closely, it looks like your husband did learn and is unlikely to do anything so stupid again.
> 
> My advice would be, be thankful that he discovered it before you married him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


While this is a nice story it has little to nothing similar to the OP's story. You did not have sex, it was one time only and most importantly, you told her yourself before proposing. Totally different situation. You learning from your mistakes has nothing to do with OP's husband it's funny to presume that. Plus while yours could have been a 'mistake' (I don't think it was, it was a choice), OP's husband had a long sexual affair. That is not a 'mistake' but a calculated choice.


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## Suspecting

Tall Average Guy said:


> I find this post more than a bit troubling. Of course you don't owe him sex, and you certainly were not his husband. But if so, why are you holding him to the same standards as you would expect of a husband? By your own post you two were "not committed ... in any real, permanent way." Why does the fact that he had no ring on his finger not play into this analysis as well?
> 
> Look, I have tried to be supportive but this post certain sounds like you want it both ways - he should have acted like a husband while you got to act like a GF. He absolutely should have talked to you about any issues he had with the arrangement. He has no excuse for not doing that. But if your position was there was not any real commitment (remember, those are your words, not anyone else's), then why are you so upset over the fact that he in fact acted like there was no real commitment?


I think she meant that the boyfriend was not committed to HER while she thought he was at the time. If he had been, he would have not slept and had an affair(s) with other women. She did not have this knowledge at the time.

PS. I've had quite a few girlfriends who did this, It's a test to see if you are in it just for the sex.


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## NextTimeAround

Suspecting said:


> I think she meant that the boyfriend was not committed to HER while she thought he was at the time. If he had been, he would have not slept and had an affair(s) with other women. She did not have this knowledge at the time.
> 
> *PS. I've had quite a few girlfriends who did this, It's a test to see if you are in it just for the sex*.


Maybe some guys will stop paying for dates and say that it is a test to make sure that she's not in it just for the money.


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## Suspecting

NextTimeAround said:


> Maybe some guys will stop paying for dates and say that it is a test to make sure that she's not in it just for the money.


This just has the implication that you pay for sex? Hint: you can have fun without using any money. If the girl really is into you she will be happy just to be in your company.


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## Laila8

Tall Average Guy said:


> I find this post more than a bit troubling. Of course you don't owe him sex, and you certainly were not his husband. But if so, why are you holding him to the same standards as you would expect of a husband? By your own post you two were "not committed ... in any real, permanent way." Why does the fact that he had no ring on his finger not play into this analysis as well?
> 
> Look, I have tried to be supportive but this post certain sounds like you want it both ways - he should have acted like a husband while you got to act like a GF. He absolutely should have talked to you about any issues he had with the arrangement. He has no excuse for not doing that. But if your position was there was not any real commitment (remember, those are your words, not anyone else's), then why are you so upset over the fact that he in fact acted like there was no real commitment?


TAG, he asked me to be exclusive and I agreed. His definition of exclusive meant we would not be seeing others. I made it clear to him that I regretted having sex, NOT because he was bad in bed or because I didn't like him or anything, but because I think sex is best saved for marriage. He lied to my face and said he completely understood. I think it's sad that some people judge a woman for not wanting to have sex with a boyfriend, whatever the reason. When I said a boyfriend and a husband are different, that is what I meant. I didn't mean that because he's not my husband, he's allowed to run around banging other women.


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## NextTimeAround

Suspecting said:


> This just has the implication that you pay for sex? Hint: you can have fun without using any money. If the girl really is into you she will be happy just to be in your company.


No, it's not a matter of paying for sex. But a guy who is committed to a woman will do everything he can to pay for the dates and to pay for her safety.... if that means taxi fare or him always doing the driving then so be it.

We are taught to know that a guy is not really into us if he is nickeling and diming us or not showing that he is interested in our safety (even when there is a price on that safety ie taxi fare).

Guys worry whether they are being taken for a ride and if a woman is only out with them for the free meal.

I have read message boards where women are contemplating having an FB on the side so that they can appear virginal to the main guy that they are dating.

Men have things to worry about as well.


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## Laila8

Suspecting said:


> This just has the implication that you pay for sex? Hint: you can have fun without using any money. If the girl really is into you she will be happy just to be in your company.


Exactly.


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## Laila8

workindad said:


> Op if you could lay out a plan of action for your husband to follow to help heal yourself and your marriage what would it look like.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I really have no idea, that's the problem. Since he is already a good husband and he is transparent with all his passwords and activities, there's not much more he can do. So I feel like he gets to escape any consequences for deceiving me for so long.


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## Suspecting

NextTimeAround said:


> No, it's not a matter of paying for sex. But a guy who is committed to a woman will do everything he can to pay for the dates and to pay for her safety.... if that means taxi fare or him always doing the driving then so be it.
> 
> We are taught to know that a guy is not really into us if he is nickeling and diming us or not showing that he is interested in our safety (even when there is a price on that safety ie taxi fare).
> 
> Guys worry whether they are being taken for a ride and if a woman is only out with them for the free meal.
> 
> I have read message boards where women are contemplating having an FB on the side so that they can appear virginal to the main guy that they are dating.
> 
> Men have things to worry about as well.


I agree with the safety part but, "free meal"? :scratchhead: So you think if the guy buys a meal the girl is expected to give sex? Again if the girl really is into you, you don't need to buy her anything.


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## Blue Firefly

Laila619 said:


> I really have no idea, that's the problem. Since he is already a good husband and he is transparent with all his passwords and activities, there's not much more he can do. *So I feel like he gets to escape any consequences for deceiving me for so long.*


For God's sake, would you just figure out how you're going to punish him and get it over with.

That's really the core problem you're struggling with. You've already said there's nothing else he can do to prove himself (because, as you said, he's been the perfect loyal husband for the past 5 years). He's already told you he was sorry. Saying it again won't change anything. You've already said you're not going to divorce him over this. But, some part of you can't stand the idea that he will get off scott free with no long term consequences.

So do it. Figure out how you're going to punish him, and punish the hell out of him.

In fact, you should start a new thread titled "I need suggestions for punishing my husband." I'm sure you'll get plenty of great suggestions and support.


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## Suspecting

Blue Firefly, are you sure you're not her husband?


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## Blue Firefly

Suspecting said:


> Blue Firefly, are you sure you're not her husband?


Are you sure you aren't projecting your need to punish someone from your past onto her husband?


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## Suspecting

Blue Firefly said:


> Are you sure you aren't projecting your need to punish someone from your past onto her husband?


Yes.


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## Laila8

Blue Firefly said:


> For God's sake, would you just figure out how you're going to punish him and get it over with.
> 
> That's really the core problem you're struggling with. You've already said there's nothing else he can do to prove himself (because, as you said, he's been the perfect loyal husband for the past 5 years). He's already told you he was sorry. Saying it again won't change anything. You've already said you're not going to divorce him over this. But, some part of you can't stand the idea that he will get off scott free with no long term consequences.
> 
> So do it. Figure out how you're going to punish him, and punish the hell out of him.
> 
> *In fact, you should start a new thread titled "I need suggestions for punishing my husband." I'm sure you'll get plenty of great suggestions and support.*


LOL 

Blue Firefly, you're a hoot.


----------



## Blue Firefly

Suspecting said:


> Yes.


Then why are you advocating advice that will eventually lead to her divorce?

Punishing him; making his suffer the consequences of his actions is the road to divorce in this instance.

He has already proved himself over the last 5 years--there is nothing more he can do to prove himself *at this point in time.*

He has shown contrition and said he is sorry--there is no way he can demonstrate more contrition *at this point in time*.

The only thing left that can be done *at this point in time* is to punish him; to make him suffer for what he did. And that will drive a wedge between them that will eventually lead to divorce.

Answer one simple question: *do you think this marriage should end in divorce?*

If not, then quit advocating advice that will lead to their divorce; quit pushing her in a direction that will lead to divorce.

"At this point in time" is the key to this situation. Had she caught him at the time--before they were married--my advice would be completely different. But she didn't, so she has to look at the situation from where she is standing right now. A marriage she is satisfied with; a husband who she has been satisfied with since they got married; and children. Should she blow that up; should she end her marriage "at this point in time" over an event that happened before they were married?

Insisting he be punished "at this point in time" is the road to divorce.


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## Laila8

Blue Firefly, I'm honestly curious though...if there are no real consequences for him (apart from having to deal with an upset wife for a little bit), how can he learn from it so he won't do it again?


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## catfan

I think they real problem here, is that he lied for so long. What has happened before the marriage, should have been dealt with back then. He entered the marriage with a lie.
Only if she is sure he will be honest and never do this again, the marriage could be fixed.
Otherwise it would be best to end this... to prevent her from more lies and hurt.


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## catfan

And btw: married, commited relationship, there is no difference. Paper or not.
Maybe that is different in the USA, but here in The Netherlands, many people live together and have kids, not being married What is the difference besides the paperwork???


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## Suspecting

Blue Firefly said:


> Then why are you advocating advice that will eventually lead to her divorce?
> 
> Punishing him; making his suffer the consequences of his actions is the road to divorce in this instance.
> 
> He has already proved himself over the last 5 years--there is nothing more he can do to prove himself *at this point in time.*
> 
> He has shown contrition and said he is sorry--there is no way he can demonstrate more contrition *at this point in time*.
> 
> The only thing left that can be done *at this point in time* is to punish him; to make him suffer for what he did. And that will drive a wedge between them that will eventually lead to divorce.
> 
> Answer one simple question: *do you think this marriage should end in divorce?*
> 
> If not, then quit advocating advice that will lead to their divorce; quit pushing her in a direction that will lead to divorce.
> 
> "At this point in time" is the key to this situation. Had she caught him at the time--before they were married--my advice would be completely different. But she didn't, so she has to look at the situation from where she is standing right now. A marriage she is satisfied with; a husband who she has been satisfied with since they got married; and children. Should she blow that up; should she end her marriage "at this point in time" over an event that happened before they were married?
> 
> Insisting he be punished "at this point in time" is the road to divorce.


You have mixed me with someone else. Nowhere I've been advocating divorce or advicing to do so. I can't tell what Laila619 should do I'm just giving my *opinion *and interpretation on the situation.

I can however tell if this happened to me (just reverse the genders since I'm a guy) I would have hard time trusting my wife and I would have to question everything in the marriage so far. I would think she seemed the perfect wife until now, what if there is more since she hid this long and I didn't notice a thing? What is she still not telling? Is there more guys? I'll be honest and say there would be a high possiblity of divorce if this happened to me. This doesn't mean that I think Laila619 should do so.


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## Blue Firefly

Laila619 said:


> Blue Firefly, I'm honestly curious though...if there are no real consequences for him (apart from having to deal with an upset wife for a little bit), how can he learn from it so he won't do it again?


Maybe there's nothing for him to learn *at this point in time*.

Maybe he learned what he needed to learn in the past. You said he was a virgin before you; a guy that had never sown any wild oats so to speak; a guy that was probably curious about what what it would be like to be with someone else.

So he found out. And, maybe what he learned from it is that being with another women isn't everything its cracked up to be--that he wants to be with you, and only you.

What other lesson could have learned? That other women are fun in bed; that cheating is easy and worth it? If that had been the lesson he learned, then he would have been cheating on you a lot over the last 5 years. He would have become a serial cheater.

But, he didn't. His record since then indicates that his "sowing a wild oat" long ago only served to cement in his mind that you were the one for him--not someone else.

Maybe he has already learned the lesson he needed to learn.


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## Tall Average Guy

Laila619 said:


> TAG, he asked me to be exclusive and I agreed. His definition of exclusive meant we would not be seeing others. I made it clear to him that I regretted having sex, NOT because he was bad in bed or because I didn't like him or anything, but because I think sex is best saved for marriage. He lied to my face and said he completely understood. I think it's sad that some people judge a woman for not wanting to have sex with a boyfriend, whatever the reason. When I said a boyfriend and a husband are different, that is what I meant. I didn't mean that because he's not my husband, he's allowed to run around banging other women.


I am not judging you for not wanting sex, though I think it causes huge problems when you withdraw it. I also think that when you say that after you have already had sex not only with him, but past men, it will ring hollow. But that is an action you already took, so nothing you can do about it.

My point is that you you yourself said that you had no real commitment between the two of you. Him breaking his word, however bad it is, is not at the same level as if he cheated now, because the commitment you two have is now real, where it was not before, as you admit. So why the reaction as if it was him cheating after marriage?


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## Tall Average Guy

Suspecting said:


> I think she meant that the boyfriend was not committed to HER while she thought he was at the time. If he had been, he would have not slept and had an affair(s) with other women. She did not have this knowledge at the time.


I don't read it that way. She said this in response to her deciding they would no longer have sex, which occurred much earlier than his cheating. So she is saying that they had no real commitment, so he was not entitled to sex.



> PS. I've had quite a few girlfriends who did this, It's a test to see if you are in it just for the sex.


And that is clearly manipulative.


----------



## treyvion

NextTimeAround said:


> No, it's not a matter of paying for sex. But a guy who is committed to a woman will do everything he can to pay for the dates and to pay for her safety.... if that means taxi fare or him always doing the driving then so be it.


No guy should nickel and dime you, financially or emotionally. Some of us believe after the first few dates when you are "dating" that the guy doesn't pay for it all. Some dates are area's of her interest and she invites him along and she pays.



NextTimeAround said:


> We are taught to know that a guy is not really into us if he is nickeling and diming us or not showing that he is interested in our safety (even when there is a price on that safety ie taxi fare).
> 
> Guys worry whether they are being taken for a ride and if a woman is only out with them for the free meal.


It's not uncommon at all. In some realms this is the norm. 



NextTimeAround said:


> I have read message boards where women are contemplating having an FB on the side so that they can appear virginal to the main guy that they are dating.
> 
> Men have things to worry about as well.


Plan A and Plan B through G are common approaches in the single game. Women subcontract out needs among a group of people, so that the guy paying for the dinner might not be the guy who fixes her car might not be the guy who is the FWB.


----------



## treyvion

Tall Average Guy said:


> I don't read it that way. She said this in response to her deciding they would no longer have sex, which occurred much earlier than his cheating. So she is saying that they had no real commitment, so he was not entitled to sex.
> 
> 
> 
> And that is clearly manipulative.


Men are concerned about being "stretched out for dates". So a long string of dates where HE pays, and there is no sex.

I for one, think that while this day and age, sex before marriage is a very normal thing, I can believe that there are some women who are not having sex due to whatever reason, and or may still be a virgin. It's not that many, but it happens.


----------



## Laila8

Blue Firefly said:


> Maybe there's nothing for him to learn *at this point in time*.
> 
> Maybe he learned what he needed to learn in the past. You said he was a virgin before you; a guy that had never sown any wild oats so to speak; a guy that was probably curious about what what it would be like to be with someone else.
> 
> So he found out. And, maybe what he learned from it is that being with another women isn't everything its cracked up to be--that he wants to be with you, and only you.
> 
> What other lesson could have learned? That other women are fun in bed; that cheating is easy and worth it? If that had been the lesson he learned, then he would have been cheating on you a lot over the last 5 years. He would have become a serial cheater.
> 
> But, he didn't. His record since then indicates that his "sowing a wild oat" long ago only served to cement in his mind that you were the one for him--not someone else.
> 
> Maybe he has already learned the lesson he needed to learn.


I certainly hope this is the case.

It still stings to feel like maybe I was his second choice, but that's my own issue (although his actions back then certainly didn't help).


----------



## Suspecting

Tall Average Guy said:


> I don't read it that way. She said this in response to her deciding they would no longer have sex, which occurred much earlier than his cheating. So she is saying that they had no real commitment, so he was not entitled to sex.
> 
> 
> 
> And that is clearly manipulative.


Well, maybe you're just interpreting her wrong. I interpreted committed as being faithful AKA not sleeping with other people. Both emotional and physical commitment.

I don't agree it's manipulative to withold sex before marriage. There could be numerous reasons to do so.


----------



## Rags

Suspecting said:


> While this is a nice story it has little to nothing similar to the OP's story. You did not have sex, it was one time only and most importantly, you told her yourself before proposing. Totally different situation. You learning from your mistakes has nothing to do with OP's husband it's funny to presume that. Plus while yours could have been a 'mistake' (I don't think it was, it was a choice), OP's husband had a long sexual affair. That is not a 'mistake' but a calculated choice.


I guess we'll just have to disagree then. I think the similarities are very strong.

(My 'not having sex' aspect is essentially irrelevant, as I wasn't having sex with the girlfriend either - did more with the ex than I had with the gf, so the similarity is equivalent, I think.)

Anyway, my point is that all the evidence suggests that the marriage is good and he's unlikely to stray again, it would appear, so why look to throw it all away?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Davelli0331

I apologize, I don't have time to read the entire thread, but wanted to comment because I went through the same thing.

Anyone telling you to "forget about it, you weren't engaged/married" has obviously not gone through it. Go find out that your spouse cheated while you were dating then come back here and tell me how you "just forgot about it". My wife cheated on me before marriage, and I did not find out about it until two years after our marriage.

The problem here is that you did not receive full disclosure before entering into marriage with your H. Your H kept it from you bc he knew that you likely would not have married him otherwise. No matter how anyone tries to reframe that, he effectively covered up the truth so that you would marry him. Epic cake eating.

Truth is, all the talks, counseling, "plans for healing", etc etc aren't real consequences to him in the sense that he loses anything. Sure, he lost your trust, but...so what? He knows that if you guys stay together, he'll (mostly) win that back, and even if he doesn't....so what? You'd still be together.

The question that you will often come back to is, "Would I have married H if I'd have known about the cheating?" As time goes on, you'll be able to answer that question more clearly. Like some of us, you may eventually come to the conclusion that, no, you would not have married him. 

That has a profound effect on your marriage. Marriage is a choice that you make every day, but when you realize that you would not have married your spouse in the first place, you start to wonder what exactly it is you're fighting for.

It's up to you to decide if that situation is acceptable. It is a decision that you will make now and continue to reevaluate for years. 

And just because the marriage checks all the right boxes (loving spouse, good father, genuinely sorry, etc) doesn't mean you'll be happy. The consequences listed above will stick with you for years, and you'll always wonder if this is how marriage is supposed to be.


----------



## workindad

DL0331. Just curious. Did you divorce or stay with your wife? No thread jack intended. Perhaps explaining your decision making process would be helpful to OP along with lessons learned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lisab0105

Davelli0331 said:


> I apologize, I don't have time to read the entire thread, but wanted to comment because I went through the same thing.
> 
> Anyone telling you to "forget about it, you weren't engaged/married" has obviously not gone through it. Go find out that your spouse cheated while you were dating then come back here and tell me how you "just forgot about it". My wife cheated on me before marriage, and I did not find out about it until two years after our marriage.
> 
> The problem here is that you did not receive full disclosure before entering into marriage with your H. Your H kept it from you bc he knew that you likely would not have married him otherwise. No matter how anyone tries to reframe that, he effectively covered up the truth so that you would marry him. Epic cake eating.
> 
> Truth is, all the talks, counseling, "plans for healing", etc etc aren't real consequences to him in the sense that he loses anything. Sure, he lost your trust, but...so what? He knows that if you guys stay together, he'll (mostly) win that back, and even if he doesn't....so what? You'd still be together.
> 
> The question that you will often come back to is, "Would I have married H if I'd have known about the cheating?" As time goes on, you'll be able to answer that question more clearly. Like some of us, you may eventually come to the conclusion that, no, you would not have married him.
> 
> That has a profound effect on your marriage. Marriage is a choice that you make every day, but when you realize that you would not have married your spouse in the first place, you start to wonder what exactly it is you're fighting for.
> 
> It's up to you to decide if that situation is acceptable. It is a decision that you will make now and continue to reevaluate for years.
> 
> And just because the marriage checks all the right boxes (loving spouse, good father, genuinely sorry, etc) doesn't mean you'll be happy. The consequences listed above will stick with you for years, and you'll always wonder if this is how marriage is supposed to be.


I wish I could "like" this post more than once. :smthumbup:


----------



## Tall Average Guy

treyvion said:


> Men are concerned about being "stretched out for dates". So a long string of dates where HE pays, and there is no sex.
> 
> I for one, think that while this day and age, sex before marriage is a very normal thing, I can believe that there are some women who are not having sex due to whatever reason, and or may still be a virgin. It's not that many, but it happens.


If that is the choice they make because they believe it, that is perfectly fine. But when you have sex, then cut it off to "test" him, that is manipulative.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Suspecting said:


> Well, maybe you're just interpreting her wrong. I interpreted committed as being faithful AKA not sleeping with other people. Both emotional and physical commitment.


I don't see how I am. Here post that there was no real commitment was in response to her deciding that they would not have sex. The post she responded to included the following:



> Firstly, even as a woman, I can't understand why a man or woman would choose to stop having sex with someone they are having an exclusive relationship with. that is one of the signals that the non sexual partner is fooling around / having second thoughts about the relationship.
> 
> Secondly, popular song lyrics aside, the expression or even the thought of "put a ring on it" is offensive. Especially when it is applied specifically for sex.... as if it were a commodity to be bought / as if that were the bargaining chip that women still have to "seal the deal."


She did not owe him sex because they had no real commitment. She also said "There is a big difference between a boyfriend and a husband, and it's silly to pretend otherwise." So in this context, I think my interpretation is pretty spot on. 



> I don't agree it's manipulative to withold sex before marriage. There could be numerous reasons to do so.


It is if you cut off sex to "test" if he really loves you. It is using sex as a tool to prove things. It sets the stage for her to use it the next time she feels that she is not being treated special enough. If a guy decide he was going to make his GF pay to prove she was not after him for money, that too would be manipulative.


----------



## Wanting1

Blue Firefly said:


> Maybe there's nothing for him to learn *at this point in time*.
> 
> Maybe he learned what he needed to learn in the past. You said he was a virgin before you; a guy that had never sown any wild oats so to speak; a guy that was probably curious about what what it would be like to be with someone else.
> 
> So he found out. And, maybe what he learned from it is that being with another women isn't everything its cracked up to be--that he wants to be with you, and only you.
> 
> What other lesson could have learned? That other women are fun in bed; that cheating is easy and worth it? If that had been the lesson he learned, then he would have been cheating on you a lot over the last 5 years. He would have become a serial cheater.
> 
> But, he didn't. His record since then indicates that his "sowing a wild oat" long ago only served to cement in his mind that you were the one for him--not someone else.
> 
> Maybe he has already learned the lesson he needed to learn.


I can think of at least 2 lessons that this man needs to learn. Honesty and respect. For 5 years he has withheld both of these from the one he was supposed to cherish above all others. Unfortunately for OP, the only one who really knows if he has learned anything is her husband. Is he remorseful, or is he sorry he got caught when he thought he was homefree? It sounds like he's sorry he got caught, sorry he ended the trickle truth, sorry that after all this time there is a price to pay for his deception. It's very inconvenient for him to have to deal with this. How annoying it must be for him.


----------



## treyvion

Tall Average Guy said:


> I don't see how I am. Here post that there was no real commitment was in response to her deciding that they would not have sex. The post she responded to included the following:
> 
> 
> 
> She did not owe him sex because they had no real commitment. She also said "There is a big difference between a boyfriend and a husband, and it's silly to pretend otherwise." So in this context, I think my interpretation is pretty spot on.
> 
> 
> 
> It is if you cut off sex to "test" if he really loves you. It is using sex as a tool to prove things. It sets the stage for her to use it the next time she feels that she is not being treated special enough.  If a guy decide he was going to make his GF pay to prove she was not after him for money, that too would be manipulative.


In websites like this we have shown time and time again, that a "wife" owes her husband sex as much as a girlfriend owes her "boyfriend" sex. Doesn't matter each way.

Of course at one level we all understand that we don't know anyone who got married to be celebate.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Davelli0331 said:


> I apologize, I don't have time to read the entire thread, but wanted to comment because I went through the same thing.
> 
> Anyone telling you to "forget about it, you weren't engaged/married" has obviously not gone through it. Go find out that your spouse cheated while you were dating then come back here and tell me how you "just forgot about it". My wife cheated on me before marriage, and I did not find out about it until two years after our marriage.
> 
> The problem here is that you did not receive full disclosure before entering into marriage with your H. Your H kept it from you bc he knew that you likely would not have married him otherwise. No matter how anyone tries to reframe that, he effectively covered up the truth so that you would marry him. Epic cake eating.
> 
> Truth is, all the talks, counseling, "plans for healing", etc etc aren't real consequences to him in the sense that he loses anything. Sure, he lost your trust, but...so what? He knows that if you guys stay together, he'll (mostly) win that back, and even if he doesn't....so what? You'd still be together.
> 
> The question that you will often come back to is, "Would I have married H if I'd have known about the cheating?" As time goes on, you'll be able to answer that question more clearly. Like some of us, you may eventually come to the conclusion that, no, you would not have married him.
> 
> That has a profound effect on your marriage. Marriage is a choice that you make every day, but when you realize that you would not have married your spouse in the first place, you start to wonder what exactly it is you're fighting for.
> 
> It's up to you to decide if that situation is acceptable. It is a decision that you will make now and continue to reevaluate for years.
> 
> And just because the marriage checks all the right boxes (loving spouse, good father, genuinely sorry, etc) doesn't mean you'll be happy. The consequences listed above will stick with you for years, and you'll always wonder if this is how marriage is supposed to be.


All the above is certainly possible.

It is also possible that you two will work to make a marriage that does in fact make you happy. There are examples of that on this board.

I do urge you to take you time and figure out what you want. Not what those on the board want, what your husband wants, what you family wants. Look out for you. Find a friend or even a counselor to talk this through. This is still fresh, so you will likely be all over the board on this, with changing thoughts daily. That is to be expected. so take your time to let your emotions settle a bit. 

Work through this so that when you do make your decision, you will have more confidence that it is the correct one.


----------



## Laila8

Tall Average Guy said:


> If that is the choice they make because they believe it, that is perfectly fine. But when you have sex, then cut it off to "test" him, that is manipulative.


I didn't do it to "test" him, I cut it off because 1) I was never really comfortable doing it in the first place, my goal all along was to wait until marriage but I slipped up because he was so hot, and 2) he wasn't talking about any kind of a future with me at all, so to regain my balance and stop being so invested and attached, I figured it was best to pull back, for my own sanity. If that's manipulative, then so be it. It was what I needed to do.


----------



## thatbpguy

Laila619 said:


> I didn't do it to "test" him, I cut it off because 1) I was never really comfortable doing it in the first place, my goal all along was to wait until marriage but I slipped up because he was so hot, and 2) he wasn't talking about any kind of a future with me at all, so to regain my balance and stop being so invested and attached, I figured it was best to pull back, for my own sanity. If that's manipulative, then so be it. It was what I needed to do.


Very sound reasoning. 

It is odd to me that as soon as you cut him off with very good rationale that he was so quick to look for it elsewhere. Like it was expected of him and he didn't care what you thought. But the good news is that he seems faithful as a married man. 

After reading all the posts, I still believe you are _fully_ justified in your feelings. I also think you can and will get past this and have a long and happy marriage. 

He fully understands your position on all this, so that is good. So move forward, get some talk therapy going, in this case I encourage you to seek to have forgiveness for his betrayal and then work to concentrate on the present and future.

Granted, he may need to better acknowledge your pain, but I think in time he will.


----------



## Anonymous07

Laila619 said:


> I didn't do it to "test" him, I cut it off because 1) I was never really comfortable doing it in the first place, my goal all along was to wait until marriage but I slipped up because he was so hot, and 2) he wasn't talking about any kind of a future with me at all, so to regain my balance and stop being so invested and attached, I figured it was best to pull back, for my own sanity. If that's manipulative, then so be it. It was what I needed to do.


You did nothing wrong by pulling back and no longer having sex. I waited to have sex myself, as I didn't want to just give it to anyone, and only slept with my husband after I knew our relationship would go somewhere(marriage) and he was happy to wait for me for when I felt comfortable with moving forward. 

Cheating, even when you are not married, is never okay. You both agreed to be in an exclusive relationship and he went outside of that relationship to be with another woman. To me, cheating is a deal breaker and when I found out my ex cheated on me, as I wasn't giving him sex, I left him(he wasn't willing to wait, so he wasn't the right one for me).

Although, since you are married and have children, I think it'd be a good idea to look for ways to regain trust in your husband and try to let go of the past. Holding on to that pain will not help you at all and will only cause further harm. It would be good to see a counselor to get these thoughts sorted out and then go from there.


----------



## Blue Firefly

Laila619 said:


> I cut it off because...he wasn't talking about any kind of a future with me at all, so to regain my balance and stop being so invested and attached, I figured it was best to pull back, for my own sanity.


Ummmmm...did a major piece of the story just fall out of the sky?

"He wasn't talking about any kind of future at all." So the relationship wasn't going anyplace--it was stalled.

So, your reason for pulling back was to "stop being so invested and attached." Do you think he might have noticed you were suddenly less invested in the relationship? Do you really think he could have not noticed?

"...stop being so invested and *attached*." In other words, you were *detaching* from the relationship. That's what "not being so attached" means--detaching. 

The relationship was stalled. You started to pull away, detach, and became less invested in the relationship.

And, when you did this he thought...what?

These aren't the signals you give when you want to work on a relationship; these are the signals you give when you want to break up, but want to let the guy down easy; when you're hoping he'll get the hint and move on.

I still think the core problem way back then was that there wasn't a "meeting of the minds" over the meaning of "exclusive relationship." Heck, at this point, he might not have even been sure what kind of relationship there was--exclusive, on the rocks, or otherwise.

What you did was send a huge set of *mixed signals*. Your actions would have confused anyone about the state of your relationship.

Pulling back; becoming less invested; detaching. Those were the signals you were sending. On top of the that the relationship was stalled.


----------



## Davelli0331

Irrespective of the debate over what stage of a relationship implies sexual exclusivity, that doesn't excuse the H from not disclosing to OP that he slept with someone else while they were dating.

If two people are dating casually and nothing serious ever comes of it, then I wouldn't get too bent out of shape about having multiple sex partners.

But if there was an expectation in the relationship of sexual exclusivity, and that expectation is broken, then that person deserves to be fully informed before marriage. 

And while OP may have made a ham-fisted decision to cut off sex without making clear to H what she was doing and why, that does not automagically imply that he gets to go bang other people when they were engaged in, for all intents and purposes, a sexually exclusive relationship.

As with all cheaters, the fact that he hid it for so long indicates that he knew it would've been a problem for his relationship with OP.


----------



## Suspecting

What's with all the blame shifting? Tall Average Guy, Blue Firefly, I think you guys need to back off a bit. The OP is not the one who cheated. There is no excuse for cheating even if you try to invent them in here.


----------



## Laila8

Blue Firefly said:


> Ummmmm...did a major piece of the story just fall out of the sky?
> 
> "He wasn't talking about any kind of future at all." So the relationship wasn't going anyplace--it was stalled.
> 
> So, your reason for pulling back was to "stop being so invested and attached." Do you think he might have noticed you were suddenly less invested in the relationship? Do you really think he could have not noticed?
> 
> "...stop being so invested and *attached*." In other words, you were *detaching* from the relationship. That's what "not being so attached" means--detaching.
> 
> The relationship was stalled. You started to pull away, detach, and became less invested in the relationship.
> 
> And, when you did this he thought...what?
> 
> These aren't the signals you give when you want to work on a relationship; these are the signals you give when you want to break up, but want to let the guy down easy; when you're hoping he'll get the hint and move on.
> 
> I still think the core problem way back then was that there wasn't a "meeting of the minds" over the meaning of "exclusive relationship." Heck, at this point, he might not have even been sure what kind of relationship there was--exclusive, on the rocks, or otherwise.
> 
> What you did was send a huge set of *mixed signals*. Your actions would have confused anyone about the state of your relationship.
> 
> Pulling back; becoming less invested; detaching. Those were the signals you were sending. On top of the that the relationship was stalled.


I can see your point, but he should have communicated all this to me instead of getting laid by someone else. It shows me that instead of discussing his concerns like a mature adult, he chooses to turn to another woman. As for the relationship being stalled--all his doing. I was more than ready and willing to get engaged to him.


----------



## Blue Firefly

Suspecting said:


> What's with all the blame shifting? Tall Average Guy, Blue Firefly, I think you guys need to back off a bit. The OP is not the one who cheated. There is no excuse for cheating even if you try to invent them in here.


Is this blame-shifting, or just trying to determine what both of their actual mindset was at the time?

She said the relationship wasn't going anywhere, so she pulled away to become less invested and detach from the relationship.

Maybe it's just me, but if I was in a relationship that wasn't going anywhere and suddenly the girl pulled away, became less invested in the relationship, and started to detach, I'd think I was about to get dumped.

You don't think that bit of info is important as in determining if he a "horrible, evil, slimy cheater" or just thinking his current relationship was done so he was moving on to the next relationship?

Earlier in this thread, she did say one of the excuses he gave her for it happening is he thought she was breaking up with him. Could it be he was actually telling the truth?

Honestly, she was sending out "I'm going to dump you" signals. Maybe not on purpose, but that's the signal she was sending.


----------



## Davelli0331

Blue Firefly said:


> Is this blame-shifting, or just trying to determine what both of their actual mindset was at the time?
> 
> She said the relationship wasn't going anywhere, so she pulled away to become less invested and detach from the relationship.
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but if I was in a relationship that wasn't going anywhere and suddenly the girl pulled away, became less invested in the relationship, and started to detach, I'd think I was about to get dumped.
> 
> You don't think that bit of info is important as in determining if he a "horrible, evil, slimy cheater" or just thinking his current relationship was done so he was moving on to the next relationship?
> 
> Earlier in this thread, she did say one of the excuses he gave her for it happening is he thought she was breaking up with him. Could it be he was actually telling the truth?
> 
> Honestly, she was sending out "I'm going to dump you" signals. Maybe not on purpose, but that's the signal she was sending.


Nope. Even if all that were the case, he should've manned up and dumped her so he could go bang someone else guilt free.

"I thought you might break up with me, so I slept with someone else." See how retarded that sounds?

ETA: Does that sound like someone you would want to marry?


----------



## Blue Firefly

Laila619 said:


> I can see your point, but he should have communicated all this to me instead of getting laid by someone else. It shows me that instead of discussing his concerns like a mature adult, he chooses to turn to another woman. As far as the relationship being stalled--all his doing. I was more than ready and willing to get engaged to him.


If he thought you were dumping him, why would he have communicated his feelings to you; why would he want to waste his time "discussing his concerns like a mature adult."

I don't mean to be snarky; I just meant to be blunt. Guys don't think like that--their first reaction isn't to talk things out (that in fact, is how women work). Guys get introspective, work things out in their own head, and then take some action. Maybe that isn't the way they should work, but it's just the way it is.

If he had come to the conclusion that you were going to dump him, then he certainly would have seen talking to you about it as a "waste of time." Sorry again, but that's just a guy thing too. 

Maybe he didn't handle himself like a "mature adult," but he handled himself like a male. If you don't like that your husband reacts to situations like a male...well, then you shouldn't have married a male.


----------



## Suspecting

Blue Firefly said:


> Maybe it's just me, but if I was in a relationship that wasn't going anywhere and suddenly the girl pulled away, became less invested in the relationship, and started to detach, I'd think I was about to get dumped.


Even if you think you will get dumped it does not excuse cheating. I have a better idea. Maybe you could ask the girl what's up instead of assuming everything in your mind?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Suspecting said:


> What's with all the blame shifting? Tall Average Guy, Blue Firefly, I think you guys need to back off a bit. The OP is not the one who cheated. There is no excuse for cheating even if you try to invent them in here.


I take great offense at this. There is not a single post here where I don't clearly blame her husband for not manning up and being honest about his intentions. He was wrong, and she needs help getting through this.

That does not mean I have to approve her actions at the time. It also does not mean I can't question her when she makes statements that seem inconsistent with her actions. So no, I will not "back off" because I am not piling on to your satisfaction.


----------



## Davelli0331

Blue Firefly said:


> If he thought you were dumping him, why would he have communicated his feelings to you; why would he want to waste his time "discussing his concerns like a mature adult."
> 
> I don't mean to be snarky; I just meant to be blunt. Guys don't think like that--their first reaction isn't to talk things out (that in fact, is how women work). Guys get introspective, work things out in their own head, and then take some action. Maybe that isn't the way they should work, but it's just the way it is.
> 
> If he had come to the conclusion that you were going to dump him, then he certainly would have seen talking to you about it as a "waste of time." Sorry again, but that's just a guy thing too.
> 
> Maybe he didn't handle himself like a "mature adult," but he handled himself like a male. If you don't like that your husband reacts to situations like a male...well, then you shouldn't have married a male.


Are you serious?

If so, please refrain from speaking for all of maledom. In fact, please preface anymore sweeping generalizations with "IMO, I would".

Either way, you're warped sense of how a "male would react" in this situation does not excuse cheating.


----------



## Laila8

Blue Firefly said:


> If he thought you were dumping him, why would he have communicated his feelings to you; why would he want to waste his time "discussing his concerns like a mature adult."
> 
> I don't mean to be snarky; I just meant to be blunt. Guys don't think like that--their first reaction isn't to talk things out (that in fact, is how women work). Guys get introspective, work things out in their own head, and then take some action. Maybe that isn't the way they should work, but it's just the way it is.
> 
> If he had come to the conclusion that you were going to dump him, then he certainly would have seen talking to you about it as a "waste of time." Sorry again, but that's just a guy thing too.
> 
> Maybe he didn't handle himself like a "mature adult," but he handled himself like a male. If you don't like that your husband reacts to situations like a male...well, then you shouldn't have married a male.


You and my husband are twins. My H has basically said every single thing you wrote in this post, the one before it, and virtually every other one you wrote on this thread. I guess you think a lot alike.

He says a lot of it was due to his inexperience with women and being insecure about where he stood with me.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Laila619 said:


> I didn't do it to "test" him, I cut it off because 1) I was never really comfortable doing it in the first place, my goal all along was to wait until marriage but I slipped up because he was so hot, and 2) he wasn't talking about any kind of a future with me at all, so to regain my balance and stop being so invested and attached, I figured it was best to pull back, for my own sanity. If that's manipulative, then so be it. It was what I needed to do.


I should have been clearer in that I was not accusing you of testing him. I was responding to another post where that kind of testing was clearly being done.

I don't see those reasons as manipulative. I would have counseled you to be very careful with how you explained them and what you did going forward. I will say I do find your explanations about your relationship during this time confusing. Others seem to be addressing this, so I will let that lie.

One thing that may be helpful to you is the statement that your husband was too immature to discuss his issues with you prior to cheating. Has he matured since then? Is he willing to have some of those hard discussions, or does he still try to avoid them? Whether or not he has changed may help you decide how you want to proceed.


----------



## thatbpguy

Blue Firefly said:


> If he thought you were dumping him, why would he have communicated his feelings to you; why would he want to waste his time "discussing his concerns like a mature adult."
> 
> I don't mean to be snarky; I just meant to be blunt. Guys don't think like that--their first reaction isn't to talk things out (that in fact, is how women work). Guys get introspective, work things out in their own head, and then take some action. Maybe that isn't the way they should work, but it's just the way it is.
> 
> If he had come to the conclusion that you were going to dump him, then he certainly would have seen talking to you about it as a "waste of time." Sorry again, but that's just a guy thing too.
> 
> Maybe he didn't handle himself like a "mature adult," but he handled himself like a male. If you don't like that your husband reacts to situations like a male...well, then you shouldn't have married a male.


As a guy I have a quite different opinion. If my gf or fiance would have opted out of sex for the reasons she gave I may not like the fact I'm suddendly not getting any, but at least I would know where she was coming from and that it was just a matter of time before I was back with her under the sheets.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Blue Firefly said:


> What you did was send a huge set of *mixed signals*. Your actions would have confused anyone about the state of your relationship.


Relationships are confusing. That's why we use words to establish a shared understanding of expectations and boundaries.

For the record, I don't consider HJ/BJ "heavy petting" or access to a woman's body (or whatever she continued with) - in lieu of PIV such a bad or mixed signal. If it were me, I'd still consider myself pretty lucky.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Blue Firefly said:


> If he thought you were dumping him, why would he have communicated his feelings to you; why would he want to waste his time "discussing his concerns like a mature adult."
> 
> I don't mean to be snarky; I just meant to be blunt. Guys don't think like that--their first reaction isn't to talk things out (that in fact, is how women work). Guys get introspective, work things out in their own head, and then take some action. Maybe that isn't the way they should work, but it's just the way it is.
> 
> If he had come to the conclusion that you were going to dump him, then he certainly would have seen talking to you about it as a "waste of time." Sorry again, but that's just a guy thing too.
> 
> Maybe he didn't handle himself like a "mature adult," but he handled himself like a male. If you don't like that your husband reacts to situations like a male...well, then you shouldn't have married a male.


As a human being with a mind of my own, I find such flawed premises and arguments annoying. I do mean to be blunt, but that's just probably a guy thing too.


----------



## Rags

Well, when it comes to mixed signals, I can see where the confusion could come from.

I know of a situation where a couple were in engaged. She decided it was all happening a bit fast, so she broke off the engagement.
He was very upset, and then went out with someone else.
At which point she was very upset. And he was confused. He'd understood breaking off the engagement to mean 'breaking up' whereas she had not.

Communication is very tricky - yes, I know it shouldn't be, and people should be up front, honest, open, etc - but that requires a lot of maturity, experience and allowing yourselves to be vulnerable. These are not all natural traits, and so in lieu of that, people often infer, extrapolate and project, to try to work things out.
Frequently they get it wrong.

In no way is cheating on someone acceptable. But I can see how he might have thought he'd been dumped.

(or, to put it another way 'were they on a break' ...?)


----------



## NextTimeAround

thatbpguy said:


> As a guy I have a quite different opinion. If my gf or fiance would have opted out of sex for the reasons she gave I may not like the fact I'm suddendly not getting any,* but at least I would know where she was coming from and that it was just a matter of time before I was back with her under the sheets*.


given the standards of this thread, it would not be just a matter of time, you would have to put a ring on it first. Do you have the money for that?

And for those women who are committed to waiting until marriage, you would have to wait until after the wedding.


----------



## thatbpguy

NextTimeAround said:


> given the standards of this thread, it would not be just a matter of time, you would have to put a ring on it first. Do you have the money for that?
> 
> And for those women who are committed to waiting until marriage, you would have to wait until after the wedding.


What I meant was they seemed to have a very close relationship when she told him she felt like waiting until marriage. 

Certainly no problem there.

Also, whether intended or not, it was a good test of character for him- "do I just go look for a screw buddy while waiting to marry her or respect her and start getting it again when we marry"?

Well, she got his answer. 

One this one I'm in her corner 100%. No way I'm backing the betrayer.


----------



## NextTimeAround

thatbpguy said:


> As a guy I have a quite different opinion. If my gf or fiance would have opted out of sex for the reasons she gave I may not like the fact I'm suddendly not getting any, but at least I would know where she was coming from and that it was just a matter of time before I was back with her under the sheets.


the other question here is, is the only way that a woman can get you to respect her is by her withholding sex from you? 

You seem to only be mobilised to be celibate only with the woman insists upon it.

do you think less of woman who are happy to have sex in a mutually agreed exclusive relationship?


----------



## Blue Firefly

thatbpguy said:


> One this one I'm in her corner 100%. No way I'm backing the betrayer.


Here is the core problem with this thread. Too many people only want to see it in black and white terms.

She is 100% victim
He is 100% evil

The situation was probably more grey. Remember, this was a guy who had just lost his virginity *at 30 years old.* To say that he was probably inept and clueless when it came to romantic relationships is probably a huge understatement.

It also looks to me (at this point in the thread) that she was playing a bit of a manipulative head game with him in an attempt to get him to propose.

Besides the "if he wants it he should put a ring on it" comment, consider:

The relationship was stalled, it wasn't going anywhere and it was because HE was moving it forward.
She wanted to be engaged (or as she put it: she would have said yes and gotten engaged, if he would only have asked).
She starts to pull away (which includes not having sex), become less invested and detaches from the relationship; was she doing the "playing hard to get" thing hoping he would suddenly fear losing her, chase after her, and propose? 
He doesn't chase after her, instead he starts to move in the other direction and starts to become less invested and detach from the relationship (just as she did).

That scenario strikes me as being very different than the original scenario she presented: a committed, exclusive relationship that was well down the road on its way to marriage.


----------



## Laila8

Blue Firefly said:


> Here is the core problem with this thread. Too many people only want to see it in black and white terms.
> 
> She is 100% victim
> He is 100% evil
> 
> The situation was probably more grey. Remember, this was a guy who had just lost his virginity *at 30 years old.* To say that he was probably inept and clueless when it came to romantic relationships is probably a huge understatement.
> 
> It also looks to me (at this point in the thread) that she was playing a bit of a manipulative head game with him in an attempt to get him to propose.
> 
> Besides the "if he wants it he should put a ring on it" comment, consider:
> 
> The relationship was stalled, it wasn't going anywhere and it was because HE was moving it forward.
> She wanted to be engaged (or as she put it: she would have said yes and gotten engaged, if he would only have asked).
> She starts to pull away (which includes not having sex), become less invested and detaches from the relationship; was she doing the "playing hard to get" thing hoping he would suddenly fear losing her, chase after her, and propose?
> He doesn't chase after her, instead he starts to move in the other direction and starts to become less invested and detach from the relationship (just as she did).
> 
> That scenario strikes me as being very different than the original scenario she presented: a committed, exclusive relationship that was well down the road on its way to marriage.


It was an exclusive, committed relationship. We said 'I love you' regularly, we saw each other 3-5 times per week, we slept over at each other's places, we went on a vacation together, we engaged in oral and other activities, we were affectionate verbally and physically, we were immersed in each other's social circles, we were a couple to everyone who knew us. He would write me mushy love notes saying how happy he was and how much he loved me. And I would write him the same. What part of that doesn't sound like a solid, exclusive relationship?

Do I owe him sex because we're dating? No. A woman can change her mind at any time, even if she's banged 10 other guys before (which I did not). If I were manipulative about sex in general, then I would deny my husband sex if I were mad at him. I've NEVER done that, ever.


----------



## Blue Firefly

Laila619 said:


> It was an exclusive, committed relationship. We said 'I love you' regularly, we saw each other 3-5 times per week, we slept over at each other's places, we went on a vacation together, we engaged in oral and other activities, we were affectionate verbally and physically, we were immersed in each other's social circles, we were a couple to everyone who knew us. He would write me mushy love notes saying how happy he was and how much he loved me. And I would write him the same. What part of that doesn't sound like a solid, exclusive relationship?


The part where you said you were deliberatly pulling away, becoming less invested in the relationship, and becoming less attached.

That isn't committed.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Laila619 said:


> It was an exclusive, committed relationship. We said 'I love you' regularly, we saw each other 3-5 times per week, we slept over at each other's places, we went on a vacation together, we engaged in oral and other activities, we were affectionate verbally and physically, we were immersed in each other's social circles, we were a couple to everyone who knew us. He would write me mushy love notes saying how happy he was and how much he loved me. And I would write him the same. What part of that doesn't sound like a solid, exclusive relationship?
> 
> Do I owe him sex because we're dating? No. *A woman can change her mind at any time, even if she's banged 10 other guys before* (which I did not). If I were manipulative about sex in general, then I would deny my husband sex if I were mad at him. I've NEVER done that, ever.


Oh dear. How often can a man change his mind?


----------



## thatbpguy

Blue Firefly said:


> Here is the core problem with this thread. Too many people only want to see it in black and white terms.
> 
> She is 100% victim
> He is 100% evil


I don't necessarily see it quite so black & white as I see the issues a little more broadly.

But the basic facts remain that they had an exclusive relationship that was sexual and appeared to be headed toward marriage. As many women do who feel otherwise, she compromised her values a bit and had sex with him but opted to stop until marriage. Certainly no problems there. As a result of her exercising her reinstated morals, he responded by having sex with another woman. Eventually they married and by all appearances he has been a faithful husband since marriage. The fact he betrayed her prior to marriage is a concern and understandably disturbing issue for her. I can understand that. I could also understand it if it wasn't all that disturbing. But it is. He is poo-pooing the whole thing and she wants a better response. Can't say as I blame her as his attitude seems a bit lax to me. So she's here blowing off steam and soliciting opinions and debates. Again, fine. And some people here are bagging on her to no end and IMHO doing so out of line. That's a shame, but as she is hanging in like a trooper and engaging the naysayers, that's fine.

So my thinking is to respect her in this and hope the two of them find their way onto the same page.

Why anyone has a problem with all that is beyond me.


----------



## Laila8

Blue Firefly said:


> The part where you said you were deliberatly pulling away, becoming less invested in the relationship, and becoming less attached.
> 
> That isn't committed.


Blue Firefly, I do understand how it would be confusing for him, especially seeing how, like you put it, he was a bit inept and clueless at romantic relationships. But again, the answer should never be to sext/IM with another woman, and then meet her for sex multiple times. No matter how confusing I may have been to him, I just can't agree with his response. And in the end, how inept was he really if he was able to find another woman to have NSA sex with him pretty quickly? H said he didn't even take her out on dates, they just went to each other's houses and banged. How was he even able to look me in the eyes and take me out on a date the next day and not feel like scum? I do believe it didn't phase him or make him feel guilty. That's why he did it multiple times.


----------



## Davelli0331

I can't believe that there are still people in this thread trying to implicitly blame OP for being cheated on. Instead of getting any kind of help, she's having to split hairs and debate some side argument of "does cutting off sex mean the other person can cheat, so long as it's dating".

*They were in a committed, sexually exclusive relationship. He banged someone else behind her back, then married her without full disclosure. That is cheating. Period. Full stop.* 

Did OP contribute to an atmosphere that led to it? Maybe so. But no one held a gun to his head and said, "Go sleep with this other chick, and don't tell your future wife about it, before or after marriage."


----------



## Blue Firefly

thatbpguy said:


> But the basic facts remain that they had an exclusive relationship that was sexual and appeared to be headed toward marriage.


She said it was NOT headed toward marriage at the time, that it was in fact stalled--not moving forward at all.



> As a result of her exercising her reinstated morals, he responded by having sex with another woman.


He had sex with another woman, because she (1) pulled away from the relationship, (2) became less invested in the relationship, and (3) started to detach from the relationship.

So, not only was it NOT moving forward towards marriage, it was actually moving backwards. Not because of the lack of sex, but because SHE was pulling away and detaching from the relationship--from him.

Apparently, he told her exactly that. That it wasn't the ending of sex, it was the fact that she started to pull away from the relationship that made him start to look around at other women.



> Eventually they married and by all appearances he has been a faithful husband since marriage.


Which means they have a lot of lose at this point in time. A good marriage with children; in every regard they seem to have built a wonderful life over the last 5 years.



> So my thinking is to respect her in this and hope the two of them find their way onto the same page.


I do want them to work it out, but as long as it stays a him-all-bad/her-all-good scenario they won't work it out. If she's not open to accepting that things weren't quite as rosy and perfect way back then as she keeps trying to paint it, they will continue to have trouble. Her anger will continue to well up inside her, he'll grow tired of constantly being the punching bag over this, and they'll divorce.


----------



## Davelli0331

Blue Firefly said:


> She said it was NOT headed toward marriage at the time, that it was in fact stalled--not moving forward at all.
> 
> 
> 
> He had sex with another woman, because she (1) pulled away from the relationship, (2) became less invested in the relationship, and (3) started to detach from the relationship.
> 
> So, not only was it NOT moving forward towards marriage, it was actually moving backwards. Not because of the lack of sex, but because SHE was pulling away and detaching from the relationship--from him.
> 
> Apparently, he told her exactly that. That it wasn't the ending of sex, it was the fact that she started to pull away from the relationship that made him start to look around at other women.
> 
> 
> 
> Which means they have a lot of lose at this point in time. A good marriage with children; in every regard they seem to have built a wonderful life over the last 5 years.
> 
> 
> 
> I do want them to work it out, but as long as it stays a him-all-bad/her-all-good scenario they won't work it out. If she's not open to accepting that things weren't quite as rosy and perfect way back then as she keeps trying to paint it, they will continue to have trouble. Her anger will continue to well up inside her, he'll grow tired of constantly being the punching bag over this, and they'll divorce.


OP already admitted that she didn't handle her decision to end PIV sex very well. She's admitted that it was confusing and that she could have handled it better. She has owned that she contributed to the cloudy situation that led to the cheating.

Anyone who's ever been cheated on, myself included, knows that it's not a clear-cut, "The cheater is wrong and the betrayed is right" situation. OP seems to understand that, and no one here has claimed that.

So what exactly else is it that you're looking for from her?


----------



## thatbpguy

Blue Firefly said:


> She said it was NOT headed toward marriage at the time, that it was in fact stalled--not moving forward at all.
> 
> 
> 
> He had sex with another woman, because she (1) pulled away from the relationship, (2) became less invested in the relationship, and (3) started to detach from the relationship.
> 
> So, not only was it NOT moving forward towards marriage, it was actually moving backwards. Not because of the lack of sex, but because SHE was pulling away and detaching from the relationship--from him.
> 
> Apparently, he told her exactly that. That it wasn't the ending of sex, it was the fact that she started to pull away from the relationship that made him start to look around at other women.
> 
> 
> 
> Which means they have a lot of lose at this point in time. A good marriage with children; in every regard they seem to have built a wonderful life over the last 5 years.
> 
> 
> 
> I do want them to work it out, but as long as it stays a him-all-bad/her-all-good scenario they won't work it out. If she's not open to accepting that things weren't quite as rosy and perfect way back then as she keeps trying to paint it, they will continue to have trouble. Her anger will continue to well up inside her, he'll grow tired of constantly being the punching bag over this, and they'll divorce.


Well, what can I say.

I think you're taking a militant stance and not willing to look at it objectively.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Laila619 said:


> Blue Firefly, I do understand how it would be confusing for him, especially seeing how, like you put it, he was a bit inept and clueless at romantic relationships. But again, the answer should never be to sext/IM with another woman, and then meet her for sex multiple times. No matter how confusing I may have been to him, I just can't agree with his response. *And in the end, how inept was he really if he was able to find another woman to have NSA sex with him pretty quickly? * H said he didn't even take her out on dates, they just went to each other's houses and banged. How was he even able to look me in the eyes and take me out on a date the next day and not feel like scum? I do believe it didn't phase him or make him feel guilty. That's why he did it multiple times.


This is not necessarily inconsistent with him being inept in romantic relationships, particularly as I understand it was some number of months before the hook up occurred. It can be easier to handle a no strings attached sort of relationship than one where there is actually caring and feelings involved. Again, how he is acting now (with respect to addressing these types of issues with you) may provide some guidance as to how much he has grown.

I will add that much of this analysis and suggestion is based on your stated intention of staying married to him. If that is still your goal, my advice and comments are aimed at giving you questions to ask and things to consider to allow you to work through this and rebuild a marriage that is in fact happy and fulfilling for both of you. It won't be the same, but it can still work well for both of you.

I continue to think some type of "punishment" would be good for both of you. Perhaps as simple as him sleeping on the couch for a couple of weeks. Something so that both of you can see him paying a penance. This helps you feel the scales are a bit less unbalanced (though it will never be complete). It also helps him to feel like he has not gotten away from it as well as show him the seriousness of this issue to you. Consider what you can do if your goal is still to stay together.


----------



## Davelli0331

Tall Average Guy said:


> I continue to think some type of "punishment" would be good for both of you. Perhaps as simple as him sleeping on the couch for a couple of weeks. Something so that both of you can see him paying a penance. This helps you feel the scales are a bit less unbalanced (though it will never be complete). It also helps him to feel like he has not gotten away from it as well as show him the seriousness of this issue to you. Consider what you can do if your goal is still to stay together.


From my experience, that's a really good idea.

To answer an earlier post in this thread, I am still with my wife. DDay was a little less than 1.5 years ago.

Laila, 1.5 years later, I very much wish that I'd imposed a much harsher penalty on my wife. I wish that I would have seperated from her, at least for a few weeks. Not divorce, just seperation, made her stay with friends or something. At the very least, I wish I'd have done what TallAvgGuy suggested, made her sleep on the couch.

As it stands right now, I feel like my wife got away scott free. She got to have everything she wanted. And you know what? She checked off all the boxes that TAM recommends: She disowned all of her old acquaintances in my presence, she went to counseling, she read the books, she answered all my questions, etc etc. I do not doubt that she was truly regretful for her actions.

But like I said, that doesn't magically make me happy. Deep down, I know I wouldn't have married her if I'd known. When I meet other married people, I wonder if they had to deal with a lying, cheating, deceitful spouse.

Marriage of course has its difficult points, but I often find myself wondering, "Is this really what marriage is supposed to be?"

Reading some of these posts, you get the impression that reconciliation is this very difficult process, but once (and if) you make it through it, you will both be oodles happier. That has not been my experience, but of course that's just me.


----------



## Laila8

Catherine602 said:


> He may wear a mask of goodness that hides what he really thinks. That may not change unless it causes him pain. Does he seem to be ashamed and bothered by the exposure of the person he really is?
> 
> Is he concerned about the the effect on your feelings towards him! image I am intersted to know why he did not have sex until he was 30.
> 
> Maybe that will give you insight into what he is. That along with this incident. Is he self-centered?
> 
> Does he lie about other things? Is he deceptive in other areas of his life? What is the quality of his relationship with family and friends. Is he honest with them?


He does not seem ashamed. In fact, he keeps insisting that he is a good person and that he has good character.

He hates me being upset with him though, so that is the part that is getting to him. He doesn't like to see me cry. 

To answer some of your other questions, he did not have sex until 30 because he was very shy and awkward with women. He was a late bloomer so to speak.

Is he self-centered? No, not at all. He is the kind of guy who puts everyone else first. He puts me and the kids ahead of anything for himself. He is very selfless and giving. 

He is also generally an honest person. One time, he and his dad were working in our yard and they accidentally damaged a bit of the neighbor's fence. My FIL didn't want to say anything to the neighbors, but my H said he was going to go over and own up to the neighbor that he damaged the fence accidentally, since it was the right thing to do. I was proud of him for that. He has great relationships with his family and friends. His buddies are all honest, decent, happily married guys. 

This cheating thing is really out of character for him, and that's why it is so shocking and painful.


----------



## Davelli0331

Laila619 said:


> He does not seem ashamed. In fact, he keeps insisting that he is a good person and that he has good character.
> 
> He hates me being upset with him though, so that is the part that is getting to him. He doesn't like to see me cry.
> 
> To answer some of your other questions, he did not have sex until 30 because he was very shy and awkward with women. He was a late bloomer so to speak.
> 
> Is he self-centered? No, not at all. He is the kind of guy who puts everyone else first. He puts me and the kids ahead of anything for himself. He is very selfless and giving.
> 
> He is also generally an honest person. One time, he and his dad were working in our yard and they accidentally damaged a bit of the neighbor's fence. My FIL didn't want to say anything to the neighbors, but my H said he was going to go over and own up to the neighbor that he damaged the fence accidentally, since it was the right thing to do. I was proud of him for that. He has great relationships with his family and friends. His buddies are all honest, decent, happily married guys.
> 
> This cheating thing is really out of character for him, and that's why it is so shocking and painful.


I can empathize completely. By the time I'd found out about my W's deceit, we'd been married for a couple years. Not only was she a genuinely good person, but she'd completely left behind the crowd she'd been running with when she cheated. And as I stated before, my W was more than willing to do everything I asked of her for R.

According to TAM groupthink, that should have been all we needed for oncoming marital bliss. But learning about past As is very different from learning of a current A in one major aspect: Your SO has already dealt with the guilt and shame from the A. Yeah, they may still feel twinges of guilt and shame, and maybe it even formed a minuscule wedge between the two of you, but it obviously didn't bother them enough to come clean about it.

While they've already dealt with the issue for years, you're just now learning about it. It may as well happened yesterday. _Only it didn't happen yesterday._ It happened before you were married, and you know on some level that you might not be married had you known.

By doing that, your H withheld important information from you. He allowed himself to make a fully informed decision, but he extended you no such courtesy. You made your decision based on inaccurate information, and you did so because of his willful deceit.

The above is what eats away at me. That's why I wish I would have been harsher on my W. Hell, my W was relieved when I found out, and she even voluntarily started going to IC on her own, separate from our MC. She jumped into it feet first.

So what price did she really pay? I know that seems petty, but when you're sitting there devastated bc you feel that your marriage was built on a lie, you want to know that the other person had to fight tooth and nail to get you back. That's why I advise imposing harsher penalties on your H. That's just my experience, of course.


----------



## NextTimeAround

> The above is what eats away at me. That's why I wish I would have been harsher on my W. Hell, my W was relieved when I found out, and she even voluntarily started going to IC on her own, separate from our MC. She jumped into it feet first.
> 
> So what price did she really pay? I know that seems petty, but when you're sitting there devastated bc you feel that your marriage was built on a lie, you want to know that the other person had to fight tooth and nail to get you back. That's why I advise imposing harsher penalties on your H. That's just my experience, of course.


In addition to the measure that your wife already took, what harsher penalties would you have liked to see?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Catherine602 said:


> I read that couples who R are happier after infidelity, is a myth. There have been a few studies that indicate the opposite. Those that R, about 30%, do so for the kids and finances, the common reasons for not D. MC does not effect the rate of R.


Well, there is research that indicates that well over half (I think it was like 70%) of those that divorced regretted it. I don't know what the real numbers are. I do know there are a number of BS posters that indicate that they do have a happy marriage. 

I do know that she wants to stay, for now. I think it is too early for her to make a solid decision on that, but I do hope that she can do some things that will help her make the best decision she can, as well as improve things if they do stay together.

If she does stay, it will take time. Some say 3-5 years before it is not longer front and center. Keep that in mind.


----------



## Davelli0331

Quoting studies and statistics has its usefulness, but they're thrown around way too much on TAM for several reasons

1) People love to throw those stats and studies around on TAM but no one can ever actually track down the studies and research, so I wonder how much of it is true and how much of it is TAM-perpetuated memes
2) Even if they are true, statistics and studies only describe actions/reactions of a sampling of the population. Statistics and studies may be accurate for that group, but they DO NOT predict how an individual will act/react in a given situation.
3) Stats give the impression that all people should fall into some well-delineated state as defined by the study.
4) And stats sure don't make you feel better when you just found out you were cheated on.

For my part, I can say I would have regretted divorcing my wife, because I would not have felt like I'd given our marriage a fair chance.

However, I'd also fall into the group Cat602 described that stayed together but wouldn't necessarily describe themselves as happy. 

See what I'm saying about how statistics are kind of useless, especially when dealing with a real person living through a real situation?

I agree with TallAvgGuy that OP shouldn't make a decision right now when emotions are running high. With time will come more clarity.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Davelli0331 said:


> Quoting studies and statistics has its usefulness, but they're thrown around way too much on TAM for several reasons


The other problem I have with reading material from the "experts" is that their case studies are situations that inevitably black and white in detail.

Since situations in real life aren't so clear cut, the experts' case studies aren't always that helpful.


----------



## NextTimeAround

The other thing that I would look at it is whether he has good boundaries with the women that he comes in contact with.


----------



## treyvion

Catherine602 said:


> I agree that stats are not applicable to individuals but they influence decisions. If that is the case then mythical stats should be challenged.
> 
> Making a decision now would be premature. D would be reckless at present but it may be wise to re-examine the person you are dealing with. The agreeable nature and appearences of morality is in direct contridiction to keeping a secrete from you for so long.
> 
> It is also inconsistent with entering into a fvck buddy relationship while making googoo eyes with a woman he is commited to. It is also not Appearent in his lack of shame and insistence that you should disregard the real him and relate to the mask.
> 
> If he thinks he is a good person does these things, he does not know what it is. A good person would be distressed about behavior that is not consistent with their image of themselves. He is distressed over what you think of him.
> 
> There are some red flags. He put others before himself and he is outwardly very moral. Everyone is a bit selfish and have character flaws. It must be difficult for him to hide his normal selfishness. He may be hiding a great deal of resentment and even rage.
> 
> It not uncommon for too nice people to do things that seem uncharacteristic for them. Does he get angry and argue or does he agree with you on every point. Does he oppose you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



He might not want to be as selfish as the people around him. He may actually not be selfish at all. There are different Kevlar of morals and selfishness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Laila8

Davelli0331 said:


> I can empathize completely. By the time I'd found out about my W's deceit, we'd been married for a couple years. Not only was she a genuinely good person, but she'd completely left behind the crowd she'd been running with when she cheated. And as I stated before, my W was more than willing to do everything I asked of her for R.
> 
> According to TAM groupthink, that should have been all we needed for oncoming marital bliss. But learning about past As is very different from learning of a current A in one major aspect: Your SO has already dealt with the guilt and shame from the A. Yeah, they may still feel twinges of guilt and shame, and maybe it even formed a minuscule wedge between the two of you, but it obviously didn't bother them enough to come clean about it.


Yes, I get the impression my H is genuinely bewildered at my sadness and anger. His thinking appears to be "It was so long ago, over 5 years ago, it doesn't pertain to us now, I chose you." As though it's some contest I "won" against the other woman. 

Easy for him to think that! 

So sorry you had to go through this too, Davelli0331.


----------



## Laila8

Catherine602 said:


> There are some red flags. He put others before himself and he is outwardly very moral. Everyone is a bit selfish and have character flaws. It must be difficult for him to hide his normal selfishness. He may be hiding a great deal of resentment and even rage.
> 
> It not uncommon for too nice people to do things that seem uncharacteristic for them. Does he get angry and argue or does he agree with you on every point. Does he oppose you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He is very even-tempered and he hardly ever gets mad or worked up about anything. He has the patience of a saint with the kids. He never yells or argues with me. You might be on to something...maybe he had a lot of rage and resentment when I stopped sex, and this was his way of getting back at me. Who knows?!


----------



## Blue Firefly

Laila619 said:


> He is very even-tempered and he hardly ever gets mad or worked up about anything. He has the patience of a saint with the kids. He never yells or argues with me. You might be on to something...maybe he had a lot of rage and resentment when I stopped sex, and this was his way of getting back at me. Who knows?!


Ummmm...to me this is a much bigger potential problem than the original subject of this thread.


Even tempered
Never gets mad
Never gets worked up over anything
Patience of a saint
Never yells at you
Never argues with you

I'm going to guess that he's extra helpful, attentive, and always tries to fix problems.

Your husband sounds very much like me in these aspects. Unfortunately, my acting this way is what eventually led our marriage to the brink of divorce. We worked it out, but it wasn't easy or pleasant.

Your husband is the typical "nice guy." Nice guy, in this instance doesn't means someone that is actually nice. It means someone that obsessed with wanting the world to think they are nice. 

Nice guys put their own lives on the back burner; they make their own needs and wants a lower priority than the needs and wants of people around them. 

You are right to wonder if your husband is angry inside. I guarantee he is. Nice guys expect that by going above and beyond to fulfill the needs of others, that others will reciprocate in kind and go above and beyond fulfilling their needs (what is known as a covert contract). It rarely works out that way, because the NG never communicates his wants and needs; he just expects the other person to know intuitively what they are.

And when his level of niceness isn't reciprocated, he gets angry. But, he doesn't tell anyone or lash out (because that wouldn't be nice, and nice guys as avoid confrontation). Instead, he just buries the anger and it builds and builds over the years.

Until, one day (say 10 years from now) it will all come out. Those years of simmering, suppressed anger and resentment will come bubbling to the surface. You'll be caught completely off guard (I know my wife was) wondering "what the hell just happened?"

The description of your marriage before you found out about this incident is very rosy--virtually perfect. I suspect that from his standpoint it's not nearly as rosy or perfect, but he's just not telling you.

Nice guy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No More Mr. Nice Guy ...buy the book, it's the seminal work on this subject.

There is also a sticky thread in the men's section, although it is oriented towards men (including the language) so you're going to have to read it with an open/non-judgmental mindset: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html

I'm sure you don't want to hear that many of the qualities you thought were good qualities about your husband actually mask deeper problems (and I could be wrong about him), but it's better to deal with it now than dealing with it when he blows up later in life.

I recommend you start a thread in the men's clubhouse titled "Is My Husband a Nice Guy?" and see what comes of it.


----------



## Laila8

Great, now it sounds like I have even more to worry about. Blue Firefly, what can I do about it though? I've begged my husband to tell me when he's upset or mad about something, and he promises he will, but then he never says anything.

Why does there have to be some sinister motive behind being nice?


----------



## treyvion

Laila619 said:


> Great, now it sounds like I have even more to worry about. Blue Firefly, what can I do about it though? I've begged my husband to tell me when he's upset or mad about something, and he promises he will, but then he never says anything.
> 
> Why does there have to be some sinister motive behind being nice?


Have you ever thought that some people are nice and generous? That they are a great friend to have, and people who are self-centered take advantage of it. Rage and anger builds up in the person who is "nice", and eventually he explodes or implodes.

Isn't the answer sometimes that you need to pick better friends or relationship partners?

How can we blame someone because they aren't selfish enough? I do know after some time you should have enough experience in life to know when to pull back...


----------



## Blue Firefly

Laila619 said:


> Great, now it sounds like I have even more to worry about. Blue Firefly, what can I do about it though? I've begged my husband to tell me when he's upset or mad about something, and he promises he will, but then he never says anything.
> 
> Why does there have to be some sinister motive behind being nice?


There's nothing sinister about it--he actually thinks he's doing the right thing--he's just misdirected. 

I hate to tell you that--once again--you will get stuck doing the heavy lifting in the relationship, but I don't see an alternative. You're going to have to read up on this, show him why trying to be nice isn't, and help him work his way out of this.

I suggest you buy the book, read it, then give it to him to read. Tell him the things he is doing that is damaging the relationship, that you would prefer things between you to be less perfect and more out in the open.


----------



## Davelli0331

Catherine602 said:


> He has a problem, the Disease to Please, do some research. He may need IC to help him express his inner thoughts and feelings. He needs to gain the confidence and to ask for what he wants and to object to things he does not want. It is not normal to be aggreable, responsible, kind and good all of the time. This tendency may have to do with his social awkwardness. Sounds like he is the same shy man he was when you met him. Is it possible that his social development is not as advanced as it shoukd be, He could be faking it to make it.
> 
> Too nice people are not really nice. They are like the rest of us, they want things their own way. But unlike normal people, they will not ask for what they want or exert their will. They give in the hope of getting back. But no one thinks they need anything because they don't ask. Resentment and anger accumulates towards the people who dont meet their needs by magically guessing what they are.
> 
> If you both fail to address this issue, he will do other things in secret that seem "out of character". He is not asking for anything but he needs a lot. He will get what he needs from somewhere and is not likely to feel guilt about it. After all, he is so good but no one is guessing what he wants amd needs. He needs help.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hate to throw this out there because it's such a loaded term on TAM, but this is the exact definition of "The Nice Guy", and I've been wondering for a few posts if the H was a Nice Guy.


----------



## jay80_98

Did you every deny your ex boyfriends sex the way you did your husband? This plays a pivotal role here, also the lack of balance in the number of partners also may have played a role. Denying your man sex when you didnt your previous is pretty emasculating , whether its right or not it just is.


----------



## jay80_98

Also i would get your husband no more mr nice guy but i dont think he is sinnister , its fustrating to be a late bloomer and be behind the game so to speak, and you denying him sex basically rubbed it in his face so to speak so , whatever it be the past is the past allow it to be , just look forward.


----------



## Laila8

jay80_98 said:


> Did you every deny your ex boyfriends sex the way you did your husband? This plays a pivotal role here, also the lack of balance in the number of partners also may have played a role. Denying your man sex when you didnt your previous is pretty emasculating , whether its right or not it just is.


We've both had two partners, so on that score we're even, except he had his second partner after he met me, so that's worse.

My first boyfriend was the only other guy I had sex with. After him, I dated 4 other guys seriously (and was even engaged once), and I never slept with any of them. I always planned on waiting until marriage. The fact that I couldn't resist and slept with H after dating him for 5 months is a testament to how much I liked him. So I honestly don't see how it could be emasculating. 

What fooled me is that HE made it originally sound like HE also wanted to wait until marriage to have sex, and that was why he was supposedly a virgin at 30. Well obviously I came to find out that wasn't true at all, and that he most definitely DID NOT want to wait until marriage to have sex. He made it sound like the fact that he was a virgin was a moral choice, whereas in reality it was that he had no opportunities.


----------



## jay80_98

Well, this is too burdensome for you to try and understand where he's coming from. Score is now even, and a big part of it was he had to deal with the fact u willingly gave yourself to others before him, experienced others before him, and he wanted to to experience it. DOnt label it , dont give it a pole(good,bad) just accept it as part of the past and focus on building the future. She means nothing to him today just as much as your prev bf mean anything to you today. What you resist persists, allow it to be and move forward.


----------



## jay80_98

Your inventing stories and images in your head, and just like your ego is tested today you unknowingly tested his then, just forget it all its too difficult to straighten out, focus on building a great future with him now, from how you describe him, you could lose him so just scrap it in your mind you are capable of doing that let it go


----------



## jay80_98

and when you say "So I honestly don't see how it could be emasculating" . How would you know what it means to be emasculated? your not a guy , you would and could never know
Just like your burneded today and he cant understand what you are going through nor can you understand what he dealt with at that time


----------



## Laila8

jay80_98 said:


> and when you say "So I honestly don't see how it could be emasculating" . How would you know what it means to be emasculated? your not a guy , you would and could never know
> Just like your burneded today and he cant understand what you are going through nor can you understand what he dealt with at that time


Well what I mean is, if I had banged 10 guys before him, but then I told him I didn't want to have sex with him, I could understand that being emasculating for sure. But since that wasn't the case, it's harder for me to understand. I suppose it's definitely possible that that is how he felt though.


----------



## jay80_98

Well thats your justification of it, ego's are tricky and will latch on to anything, you can never understand his worldview nor can he yours, just accept that. Stop trying to determine how the outside world outside our minds should see things, we project and superimpose our worldview on others instead of allowing other people who they were meant to be, let the past be, its the past , if u choose to live with him, just work together and build a better brighter future


----------



## treyvion

Laila619 said:


> Well what I mean is, if I had banged 10 guys before him, but then I told him I didn't want to have sex with him, I could understand that being emasculating for sure. But since that wasn't the case, it's harder for me to understand. I suppose it's definitely possible that that is how he felt though.


I'm glad you are at least imagining what it feels like to be emasculated.

I am going to describe what it is like in terms a woman could understand.

What if you where "infantalized", made to feel like a baby, everything you say is wrong, your not mature, everyone else around you is adults?

What about, if your reproductive organs where destroyed. Previously you had the pleasure of sex, now you cannot enjoy it in your genetal regions no matter what you do. On top of it your 
organ is defaced and you cannot bear to look at it. You breasts are also been amputated.

That's what it feels like to be emasculated.

So if you had ten guys before your current husband, and they were man enough to have their way with you and you enjoyed being ravaged by them greatly, and husband has to work super hard around you, and you decided because of the ten guys before that you don't like sex anymore, and ontop of it intimacy. That would be emasculating for him, if he had a sex life before and looking into it with you, he's going to miss out on a pleasure you shared with your previous lovers. 

That would make him feels like he was castrated and his penis was amputated. Like it has no purpose other than urination.


----------



## Davelli0331

treyvion said:


> I'm glad you are at least imagining what it feels like to be emasculated.
> 
> I am going to describe what it is like in terms a woman could understand.
> 
> What if you where "infantalized", made to feel like a baby, everything you say is wrong, your not mature, everyone else around you is adults?
> 
> What about, if your reproductive organs where destroyed. Previously you had the pleasure of sex, now you cannot enjoy it in your genetal regions no matter what you do. On top of it your
> organ is defaced and you cannot bear to look at it. You breasts are also been amputated.
> 
> That's what it feels like to be emasculated.
> 
> So if you had ten guys before your current husband, and they were man enough to have their way with you and you enjoyed being ravaged by them greatly, and husband has to work super hard around you, and you decided because of the ten guys before that you don't like sex anymore, and ontop of it intimacy. That would be emasculating for him, if he had a sex life before and looking into it with you, he's going to miss out on a pleasure you shared with your previous lovers.
> 
> That would make him feels like he was castrated and his penis was amputated. Like it has no purpose other than urination.


What does any of that have to do with her H cheating on her while they were dating? You're arguing completely hypothetical circumstances with her for what? To try and assign the blame to her?

I don't get all of you that are hell-bent on figuring out some way that this is OP's fault.


----------



## treyvion

Davelli0331 said:


> What does any of that have to do with her H cheating on her while they were dating? You're arguing completely hypothetical circumstances with her for what? To try and assign the blame to her?
> 
> I don't get all of you that are hell-bent on figuring out some way that this is OP's fault.


I was commenting on Laila619, response as to if she emasculated her husband or not. I was trying to describe it, because for certain members like LadyOfTheLake, the act like this word is no big deal. 

I didn't try to bash Laila619, I saw that she was trying to imagine what it must feel like to be emasculated, and I was describing it so that ladies can understand it.

If her husband cheated while they were dating, it's a common thing to do this day and age. I don't really support it, unless both people admitted that they were seeing other people.

I believe the transitions are real messy when these things come to light, and they usually come to light.


----------



## lifeistooshort

I honestly don't understand the back and fourth arguing in this thread over whether he was justified because she cut him off and emasculated him, or whether they were exclusive or not, blah blah blah. To me the real issue is that he kept it from her, probably because he knew it would be a problem (which debunks the argument that since she cut off sex they weren't exclusive because that's an easy argument to make if he believed it) and denied her the opportunity to go into this marriage with her eyes open. That doesn't suggest a whole lot of respect on his end, and I would be concerned about his ability to be truthful when he knows it's going to cause him trouble.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## treyvion

lifeistooshort said:


> I honestly don't understand the back and fourth arguing in this thread over whether he was justified because she cut him off and emasculated him, or whether they were exclusive or not, blah blah blah. To me the real issue is that he kept it from her, probably because he knew it would be a problem (which debunks the argument that since she cut off sex they weren't exclusive because that's an easy argument to make if he believed it) and denied her the opportunity to go into this marriage with her eyes open. That doesn't suggest a whole lot of respect on his end, and I would be concerned about his ability to be truthful when he knows it's going to cause him trouble.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I understand. He could have been honest about it.


----------



## LDB526

Hilarious....

This thread full of people telling Laila to suck it up...a new thread with a guy talking about his wife cheating before marriage, what advice does he get -dna test. She will cheat again. Divorce!!!-

How surprising...except not.


----------



## Davelli0331

LDB526 said:


> Hilarious....
> 
> This thread full of people telling Laila to suck it up...a new thread with a guy talking about his wife cheating before marriage, what advice does he get -dna test. She will cheat again. Divorce!!!-
> 
> How surprising...except not.


TAM has become extremely male-centric in the last few months. Like, retardedly so.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Davelli0331 said:


> TAM has become extremely male-centric in the last few months. Like, retardedly so.


Really confirms to me that many men don't see male cheating as being on the same level as female cheating, esp if poor baby is "emasculated" because he's not getting what he wants how he wants it right now. That's always been the case unfortunately.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tall Average Guy

LDB526 said:


> Hilarious....
> 
> This thread full of people telling Laila to suck it up...a new thread with a guy talking about his wife cheating before marriage, what advice does he get -dna test. She will cheat again. Divorce!!!-
> 
> How surprising...except not.


Well, in that case she admitted, but now refuses to talk about it at all and threaten to take his kid away if he continued to press the issue. But other than that they are exactly the same.


----------



## Laila8

LDB526 said:


> Hilarious....
> 
> This thread full of people telling Laila to suck it up...a new thread with a guy talking about his wife cheating before marriage, what advice does he get -dna test. She will cheat again. Divorce!!!-
> 
> How surprising...except not.


Yes, it is definitely odd how different the advice is!


----------



## Catherine602

Tall Average Guy said:


> Well, in that case she admitted, but now refuses to talk about it at all and threaten to take his kid away if he continued to press the issue. But other than that they are exactly the same.


The unifying theme of the schizoid posts from men on this thread and the other one is that men seem to think that they are entitled to get sex, full stop. 

I doubt that cheating would be increasing so alarmingly among women if men were not so vocal about their birthright to open committed relationships to new partners. Sounds too good to resist.


----------



## Catherine602

Laila619 said:


> Yes, it is definitely odd how different the advice is!


Read the advice on the other thread and follow that. What's good for that loyal man is good for you too, Laila.


----------



## aug

If it is the thread I think you're talking about, and you're thinking about following the advice there, then...

dont shave your head.


----------



## aug

This thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/77570-wife-cheated-before-marriage.html


----------



## Laila8

I feel so bad for that poster. The feelings he has...I can so relate to feeling like you were tricked.


----------



## Davelli0331

Just read through the other thread. If you need anymore evidence that TAM is skewing hard towards male (and oftentimes misogynistic or at least anti-woman) POVs, then just keep following that thread and comparing those responses to this one. Sickening. TAM used to be much more egalitarian and even-handed.

Anyway, the upshot, Laila, if there can be an upshot in all of this, is that you don't have to make a decision right now. And you shouldn't. You're too emotional, as we all were when we'd just found out.

Take your time. Do whatever you feel you need to do to let your H know how badly he [email protected] up, though I might stop short at wanting him to shave his head (wtf?).

Start IC and/or MC if you haven't already. It's a great, neutral place to explore your feelings, air things out that need to be said, etc.

And don't let him (or anyone here) tell you that how you feel is wrong. Only you know yourself and your marriage.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Catherine602 said:


> The unifying theme of the schizoid posts from men on this thread and the other one is that men seem to think that they are entitled to get sex, full stop.


Last I checked, I am still a man. You won't find me voicing that unified theme. But if that is what you want to believe, I have no doubt that nothing I say will convince you (and others) any differently.



> I doubt that cheating would be increasing so alarmingly among women if men were not so vocal about their birthright to open committed relationships to new partners. Sounds too good to resist.


It is not that vocal. Yes, some do. But others don't. Remember this broad brush you just gave the next time you don't like a man categorizing all women in an unflattering way.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Davelli0331 said:


> Just read through the other thread. If you need anymore evidence that TAM is skewing hard towards male (and oftentimes misogynistic or at least anti-woman) POVs, then just keep following that thread and comparing those responses to this one. Sickening. TAM used to be much more egalitarian and even-handed.


I disagree. There are huge differences in these situations.



> Anyway, the upshot, Laila, if there can be an upshot in all of this, is that you don't have to make a decision right now. And you shouldn't. You're too emotional, as we all were when we'd just found out.
> 
> Take your time. Do whatever you feel you need to do to let your H know how badly he [email protected] up, though I might stop short at wanting him to shave his head (wtf?).
> 
> Start IC and/or MC if you haven't already. It's a great, neutral place to explore your feelings, air things out that need to be said, etc.
> 
> And don't let him (or anyone here) tell you that how you feel is wrong. Only you know yourself and your marriage.


I do agree with this. Her feelings are her own. Take the time to get them steadied a bit and figure out where she wants to go. 

Laila, I would also add that she should recognize that even with time, your decision at 3 months may change at 6 months and then again at 12 months. New information and new (in)actions will inform you. Don't allow a previous decision prevent you from taking a new correct course.


----------



## aug

Tall Average Guy said:


> I disagree. There are huge differences in these situations.


:iagree:

For example, Laila's husband didnt ask her to shave her head.

And Laila's husband does not come across as a b!tch like the WS is in the other thread.


----------



## treyvion

Davelli0331 said:


> Just read through the other thread. If you need anymore evidence that TAM is skewing hard towards male (and oftentimes misogynistic or at least anti-woman) POVs, then just keep following that thread and comparing those responses to this one. Sickening. TAM used to be much more egalitarian and even-handed.
> 
> Anyway, the upshot, Laila, if there can be an upshot in all of this, is that you don't have to make a decision right now. And you shouldn't. You're too emotional, as we all were when we'd just found out.
> 
> Take your time. Do whatever you feel you need to do to let your H know how badly he [email protected] up, though I might stop short at wanting him to shave his head (wtf?).
> 
> Start IC and/or MC if you haven't already. It's a great, neutral place to explore your feelings, air things out that need to be said, etc.
> 
> And don't let him (or anyone here) tell you that how you feel is wrong. Only you know yourself and your marriage.


Western society is not biasing against women, it's biasing against men. There's not a strong anti-woman sentiment, it's just that the males here do not subscribe to "opression" of either male or female.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Catherine602 said:


> The unifying theme of the schizoid posts from men on this thread and the other one is that men seem to think that they are entitled to get sex, full stop.


Was the "from men" and the "men seem to think" really necessary?

Please don't make over-generalizations about any sex.
Multiple men here have been supportive of Laila here, and I like to think I am one.

It is not helpful.
It leads to people getting angry.
That leads to TAM maintainers to shutdown threads.
And then people don't get the help and understanding they need.


----------



## LDB526

aug said:


> :iagree:
> 
> For example, Laila's husband didnt ask her to shave her head.
> 
> And Laila's husband does not come across as a b!tch like the WS is in the other thread.


Laila's husband is just a lying liar who lies...but as long as he wasn't nasty about it....


----------



## Suspecting

Tall Average Guy said:


> Last I checked, I am still a man.


Spencer Davis Group - I'm a Man - YouTube

Sorry couldn't resist.


----------



## lifeistooshort

treyvion said:


> Western society is not biasing against women, it's biasing against men. There's not a strong anti-woman sentiment, it's just that the males here do not subscribe to "opression" of either male or female.



If that was true the advice would be consistent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Squeakr

lifeistooshort said:


> If that was true the advice would be consistent.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Only expect the same exact advice in exactly alike situations. The other one has threats, bullying, and belittling behavior by the cheating spouse towards the betrayed spouse, which this one doesn't have.

Also don't expect the same behavior as it is just as bad for the men that women never seem to notice. Whenever a man writes about checking, he is generally accused of being beta, weak, "mr nice guy>, etc and being the cause of why his wife started. The recommendation is to man up first. These same recommendations are not made for women in the same position, yet none of the women complain about this inequality.

And for the record I am in support of the OP in her decisions and don't believe her sexual activity, or lack thereof, is the cause or reason for this to happen to her.


----------



## workindad

Laila, whatever you... do not shave your head. Perhaps you could shave your husbands though.


----------



## BrockLanders

Laila619 said:


> Yes, it is definitely odd how different the advice is!


That's because the situations were different. Your husband went on a date and had sex with her once. The wife in the other thread had a one month relationship replete withall kinds of physical intamacy and sex (once, lol). Then she refuses to give details and threatens to take his child to another country.

Why would anyone want you to get a DNA test for your kid? It wouldn't make any sense. Would he smuggle the OW's eggs into your womb?

There's far more differences than gender in this case.


----------



## Suspecting

BrockLanders said:


> That's because the situations were different. Your husband went on a date and had sex with her once. The wife in the other thread had a one month relationship replete withall kinds of physical intamacy and sex (once, lol). Then she refuses to give details and threatens to take his child to another country.
> 
> Why would anyone want you to get a DNA test for your kid? It wouldn't make any sense. Would he smuggle the OW's eggs into your womb?
> 
> There's far more differences than gender in this case.


It was a one month affair and sex multiple times and he trickle truthed her for two weeks:



Laila619 said:


> At this point I am too numb and it doesn't even surprise me, but if it makes a difference, he did end up confessing to the rest of it. He admitted that all the missing condoms were used with her, so obviously this was NOT a one time thing. Turns out it was more like a one month long fling, with multiple times. He would go to her house during the week to have sex when I was busy, and happily date me on weekends, all while saying he loved me, I made him so happy, etc. When I pull up old e-mails and love letters he sent me during this time period, it's astounding how he sounded totally normal and happy, and he was as mushy and sweet to me as ever. Nauseating.


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## BrockLanders

Suspecting said:


> It was a one month affair and sex multiple times:


Thanks, didn't read all of the thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soccermom2three

LDB526 said:


> Laila's husband is just a lying liar who lies...but as long as he wasn't nasty about it....


I know, right? The WS on the other thread is mean and nasty. The WS on this thread is a trickle truther, moping around sorry he got caught. After everything is said and done, we still have two lying cheaters that are not in anyway remorseful. Sounds the same to me.


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## lifeistooshort

Squeakr said:


> Only expect the same exact advice in exactly alike situations. The other one has threats, bullying, and belittling behavior by the cheating spouse towards the betrayed spouse, which this one doesn't have.
> 
> Also don't expect the same behavior as it is just as bad for the men that women never seem to notice. Whenever a man writes about checking, he is generally accused of being beta, weak, "mr nice guy>, etc and being the cause of why his wife started. The recommendation is to man up first. These same recommendations are not made for women in the same position, yet none of the women complain about this inequality.
> 
> And for the record I am in support of the OP in her decisions and don't believe her sexual activity, or lack thereof, is the cause or reason for this to happen to her.



True, they have been no threats or bullying here but if the roles were reversed she'd be told not to put up with the trickle truthing and lying and she'd be lectured about this can't possibly be his only go around on the rodeo, and there had to be others. She'd be told to file for divorce to show him who the boss really is (and reminded that she doesn't have to go through with it) because there must be consequences. A guy would never be told that because he didn't provide the sex she so richly deserved and she had been a good wife it would be a shame to throw away a good marriage. A far as being told to man up, more women should be told that; I detest the doormat victim mentality I see from a lot of women here.
At least we agree that she's not at fault for this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Laila8

Squeakr said:


> And for the record I am in support of the OP in her decisions and don't believe her sexual activity, or lack thereof, is the cause or reason for this to happen to her.


Squeakr, so you think that even if I was sleeping with my H, he still would have cheated anyway?


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## dsGrazzl3D

Laila619 said:


> if there are no real consequences for him _(apart from having to deal with an upset wife for a little bit)_, how can he _learn_ from it so he won't do it again?


Honestly I didn't read all of the thread. I think this is not a helpful argument. I mean you are saying that punishment is always a requirement for grow?!? Grow can come from pain, and it can also come from maturity. *Frankly this ENTIRE THREAD/POSTING has been lacking in maturity, so I'll not be back in this mess again!*


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## PieceOfSky

dsGrazzl3D said:


> Honestly I didn't read all of the thread. I think this is not a helpful argument. I mean you are saying that punishment is always a requirement for grow?!? Grow can come from pain, and it can also come from maturity. *Frankly this ENTIRE THREAD/POSTING has been lacking in maturity, so I'll not be back in this mess again!*


dsGrazzl3D,

It was not an "argument", but rather an honest question from the OP. 

You have a good point that growth can come from maturity, but diluted it with the rest of your post.


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## Squeakr

Laila619 said:


> Squeakr, so you think that even if I was sleeping with my H, he still would have cheated anyway?


Laila,
I really don't know what to think and am trying not to make judgements, as I am not a partial jury/ judge at this time. I found out after the affairs my wife had, that she had slept with an ex while we were dating before marriage also (we were in a committed relationship). She has kept this from me for the entire marriage (and we had to go to engagement encounters prior to marriage where everything was to be disclosed, think marriage and compatiblity counseling/ assessment all in one yet she said nothing). So what I thought was the loving, devoted, and caring wife (and yes we had transparency and full openness with each other, or so I thought) for 14 years was in all actuality a lie. She had a hidden life for the last 4 years and kept damning secrets from em the entire marriage, even though she still maintained an appearance of true and full openness with me. Looking back, I think it might have had nothing to do with me, as it might be in her character from the start. It is for this reason that I am not making a call, as I don't know your H to speak about his true character. I just know I don't want anyone to end up where I am now, and if this is a wake up call then heed it greatly. I do not think your actions are the cause, as I don't subscribe to the "affairs are a reaction result to another action" theory (as was told to me by the wife and the POSOM on D-Day).

My reason for concern in your case, is that if you read on here, the large majority of the issues on her all start out about the same. Married for 10-18 years and thought it was the perfect marriage, then I found out...... You are not at that point yet, but it seems to be some magical number that around year 7 the itch develops and sometime later it gets scratched. I would be concerned that if you H has been able to do it before, it becomes that much easier and the line to cross becomes that much blurrier every time after. With his propensity to lie and cover it up, I could see it being an issue down the road (but like I say I am biased and jaded at this point in time)
Good luck.


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## Squeakr

lifeistooshort said:


> A guy would never be told that because he didn't provide the sex she so richly deserved and she had been a good wife it would be a shame to throw away a good marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are correct, but then again a woman would never be told that she was the cause of it because she was "too nice", "put her husband on a pedestal", "was not alpha enough (or in this case not beta enough as we seem to think the women should always be subordinate??) or because she "didn't show enough emotional support to her man" (why do we feel if she doesn't show emotion that is not a possible cause, in that instance we all just say she is just a stone, cold-hearted b!tch). Rarely are women seen as weak if they want to R, but a guy is usually judged as less than a man if he is willing to, and a women would never be told that she was the cause of the affair as she made more money than him, it would be the man's fault as he couldn't handle that fact.

It was even stated, the "poor baby" was emasculated. Why do women have to condescend like this (as men don't call another man "poor baby". Leave out the "poor baby" put down and just tell it like it is, as the put down just enforces the double standard even more).

Sorry the double standards exist and that is the way it is. Do I like it? Not at all, but it is still there and is going to take lots of work to dissolve!! (Heck Yahoo just changed their maternity leave policy, women get 12 weeks and the men only get 6, although I saw some women that said it should be equal, the majority felt it was fair and just as they stated a mother bonds more with her child. Is that because we as a society enforce that thought, with the whole breadwinner ideal, and that men are less nurturing and caring than women ideal? Food for thought!)

For the record not all of us men think the same way (although some would generalize and lead you to believe that is how all men think and if a man says otherwise he is lying or not a man! Is that a fair double standard? Nope, but I guess that makes me less o f a man for going against the grain!!

Soory for the rant, but I am new here as to posting but have been reading for months and a definite bias does exist on both sides. I try to remain neutral and not bias thoughts with my posts, just present a possibility and my opinion. Yet, I have been called a wimp, beta male, and "mr. Nice Guy" for trying to be open, honest, and neutral. I just posed a question in one of my posts, and was attacked and told I was to blame for my wife being "nailed" by other men. Never have I mentioned multiple partners for my wife, nor have I mentioned the affair was PA, but it was automatically assumed and the conclusions were formed based upon that by other men. Why do men get attacked and accused of being in the wrong (either for their actions or reactions) by other men on this board no matter what happened in the marriage, yet women seem to be split in their assessment of other women (depending on the case presented)?

I ask you is that double standard fair??


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## lifeistooshort

Squeakr said:


> You are correct, but then again a woman would never be told that she was the cause of it because she was "too nice", "put her husband on a pedestal", "was not alpha enough (or in this case not beta enough as we seem to think the women should always be subordinate??) or because she "didn't show enough emotional support to her man" (why do we feel if she doesn't show emotion that is not a possible cause, in that instance we all just say she is just a stone, cold-hearted b!tch). Rarely are women seen as weak if they want to R, but a guy is usually judged as less than a man if he is willing to, and a women would never be told that she was the cause of the affair as she made more money than him, it would be the man's fault as he couldn't handle that fact.
> 
> It was even stated, the "poor baby" was emasculated. Why do women have to condescend like this (as men don't call another man "poor baby". Leave out the "poor baby" put down and just tell it like it is, as the put down just enforces the double standard even more).
> 
> Sorry the double standards exist and that is the way it is. Do I like it? Not at all, but it is still there and is going to take lots of work to dissolve!! (Heck Yahoo just changed their maternity leave policy, women get 12 weeks and the men only get 6, although I saw some women that said it should be equal, the majority felt it was fair and just as they stated a mother bonds more with her child. Is that because we as a society enforce that thought, with the whole breadwinner ideal, and that men are less nurturing and caring than women ideal? Food for thought!)
> 
> For the record not all of us men think the same way (although some would generalize and lead you to believe that is how all men think and if a man says otherwise he is lying or not a man! Is that a fair double standard? Nope, but I guess that makes me less o f a man for going against the grain!!
> 
> Soory for the rant, but I am new here as to posting but have been reading for months and a definite bias does exist on both sides. I try to remain neutral and not bias thoughts with my posts, just present a possibility and my opinion. Yet, I have been called a wimp, beta male, and "mr. Nice Guy" for trying to be open, honest, and neutral. I just posed a question in one of my posts, and was attacked and told I was to blame for my wife being "nailed" by other men. Never have I mentioned multiple partners for my wife, nor have I mentioned the affair was PA, but it was automatically assumed and the conclusions were formed based upon that by other men. Why do men get attacked and accused of being in the wrong (either for their actions or reactions) by other men on this board no matter what happened in the marriage, yet women seem to be split in their assessment of other women (depending on the case presented)?
> 
> I ask you is that double standard fair??



I guess we all have our crosses to bear, and because there are inherent differences between the sexes things can't be 100% equal. Just as well, how much fun would it be if we were all the same and never had to guess what the other is thinking? 
I don't think you're to blame for your wife being with other men, and I am sorry you've had to deal with that. I think the same situations that make men weak for reconciling also make women weak, but there does seem to be a bit more understanding for a doormat woman then for a doormat man. Equality will continue to come bit by bit, to the extent it can, but know that we all have our double standards. While men get less baby leave (not fair, though in all fairness women do need to physically recuperate from childbirth, esp if there's been a c- section), but while a man that abandons his kids is rightly seen as a dirtbag a woman that abandons her children is a special kind of monster worthy of h#ll itself. In the mean time we should continue to evaluate each situation on it's own merits with as little regard to gender as possible.
On a side note, I deliberately chose the poor baby phrase because I don't like the entitlement attitude that I detect from some men in that they are entitled to sex dammit and if they don't get it when they want it they've been emasculated and are justified in looking elsewhere. I know lots of men don't feel that way but it has been a prevailing attitude on this thread. And women are too nice as well, all the time, and should be called on it. You can NEVER nice your way out of something caused by a jerk.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy

soccermom2three said:


> I know, right? The WS on the other thread is mean and nasty. The WS on this thread is a trickle truther, moping around sorry he got caught. After everything is said and done, we still have two lying cheaters that are not in anyway remorseful. Sounds the same to me.


So moping around is now equated with shaming someone for even suspecting and then threatening to take their child away? Not sure we are living in the same world, but I will leave that alone now, as I don't see it helping the OP here.


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## Catherine602

Tall Average Guy said:


> Last I checked, I am still a man. You won't find me voicing that unified theme. But if that is what you want to believe, I have no doubt that nothing I say will convince you (and others) any differently.
> 
> 
> 
> It is not that vocal. Yes, some do. But others don't. Remember this broad brush you just gave the next time you don't like a man categorizing all women in an unflattering way.


I shoud have been more precise in my language. 

By schizoid I was referring to the men who post one point of view to women and another to men. Not all men. That why I used the discriptive schizoid. I did not expand enough to be understood. 

Your 2nd point - It is very vocal. I don't see how you can conclude otherwise. 

From what I have read on this forum, the overwhelming majority of male posters feel that nothing should effect the desire to have sex except illness. 

Many women posters point out that relationship problems have an effect on the sexual desire of many women. Not all or that itis rigth. It's a statement of fact. Women with HD don't let the small things effect their desire.


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## Catherine602

Tall Average Guy said:


> So moping around is now equated with shaming someone for even suspecting and then threatening to take their child away? Not sure we are living in the same world, but I will leave that alone now, as I don't see it helping the OP here.


:scratchhead:


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## Laila8

Update:

For the most part, a lot of my anger has passed and hubby and I are doing well. I still feel like he 'trapped' me by marrying me without telling me about the cheating. I know this will sound immature, but last weekend, I went on Facebook and a guy I used to be neighbors with started IMing me on the chat thing. Normally I have the chat feature turned off, but I turned it on that night. He was being really flirty and I was being flirty back. It felt good, like I was taking back my wounded pride. My H was sitting right next to me, and I wasn't hiding anything; I showed him the entire exchange. Now he has an idea (albeit a fraction of one) about how it feels. When he was lonely and frustrated back when we were dating, instead of coming to me about it, he turned to someone else and started sexting with her, and then they eventually met and had a PA. Of course, I'll never meet this guy since I'm not a cheater and I haven't chatted with him since, but a part of me sure felt justified. I was shocked at how much anger I had, and how I felt like I deserved to get a little revenge to appease my pride. H was upset, but he didn't say much. Guess he really didn't have much room to say anything.


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## Tall Average Guy

Laila619 said:


> Update:
> 
> For the most part, a lot of my anger has passed and hubby and I are doing well. I still feel like he 'trapped' me by marrying me without telling me about the cheating. I know this will sound immature, but last weekend, I went on Facebook and a guy I used to be neighbors with started IMing me on the chat thing. Normally I have the chat feature turned off, but I turned it on that night. He was being really flirty and I was being flirty back. It felt good, like I was taking back my wounded pride. My H was sitting right next to me, and I wasn't hiding anything; I showed him the entire exchange. Now he has an idea (albeit a fraction of one) about how it feels. When he was lonely and frustrated back when we were dating, instead of coming to me about it, he turned to someone else and started sexting with her, and then they eventually met and had a PA. Of course, I'll never meet this guy since I'm not a cheater and I haven't chatted with him since, but a part of me sure felt justified. I was shocked at how much anger I had, and how I felt like I deserved to get a little revenge to appease my pride. H was upset, but he didn't say much. Guess he really didn't have much room to say anything.


Sorry if I have missed it, but are you two in counseling over this, either individual or marriage counseling?


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## carmen ohio

Laila619 said:


> Update:
> 
> For the most part, a lot of my anger has passed and hubby and I are doing well. I still feel like he 'trapped' me by marrying me without telling me about the cheating. I know this will sound immature, but last weekend, I went on Facebook and a guy I used to be neighbors with started IMing me on the chat thing. Normally I have the chat feature turned off, but I turned it on that night. He was being really flirty and I was being flirty back. It felt good, like I was taking back my wounded pride. My H was sitting right next to me, and I wasn't hiding anything; I showed him the entire exchange. Now he has an idea (albeit a fraction of one) about how it feels. When he was lonely and frustrated back when we were dating, instead of coming to me about it, he turned to someone else and started sexting with her, and then they eventually met and had a PA. Of course, I'll never meet this guy since I'm not a cheater and I haven't chatted with him since, but a part of me sure felt justified. I was shocked at how much anger I had, and how I felt like I deserved to get a little revenge to appease my pride. H was upset, but he didn't say much. Guess he really didn't have much room to say anything.


Dear Laila619,

I suspect that you and your H are not done with this issue. Your response, to "flirt" with another man in front of him, strikes me as immature and counterproductive. Revenge is not the best strategy for improving a marriage, nor is humiliating your H for his past misbehavior.

Now that you've rubbed you H's nose in it, you've given him cause to say "we're even" rather than to deal with your hurt and anger. If he does this, will you take things even further to continue to regain your pride?

You said in your original post that you "want to be the woman that he is so hot for . . ." Did your flirting make him hot for you? Does the the fact that he didn't respond (as he should have) but rather retreated with his tail between his legs make you hot for him, or do you now respectful him even less?

You've also said that you are "happily married." Can you still say that? Can he? Is that your goal, or is it to get even?

I know your hurting because of what your H did and rightfully so. But please, think about these things before matters get out of hand and your family is seriously damaged.

I agree with Tall Average Guy that the two of you should seek counseling before things get worse between you. If you aren't inclined to do this for yourself and your H, think about the future of your children if your marriage continues go south.


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## Laila8

Tall Average Guy said:


> Sorry if I have missed it, but are you two in counseling over this, either individual or marriage counseling?


TAG, no, we're not doing any counseling. Except for this issue, we seem to have a good marriage, happy, we get along well, we have a great sex life, we like each other, etc. He is working on sharing his feelings more with me instead of stuffing them. That is what lead to this whole mess in the first place...he never told me he was unhappy I stopped sex when we were dating. He is a lot more open now when something bothers him.


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## Laila8

carmen ohio said:


> Dear Laila619,
> 
> I suspect that you and your H are not done with this issue. Your response, to "flirt" with another man in front of him, strikes me as immature and counterproductive. Revenge is not the best strategy for improving a marriage, nor is humiliating your H for his past misbehavior.
> 
> Now that you've rubbed you H's nose in it, you've given him cause to say "we're even" rather than to deal with your hurt and anger. If he does this, will you take things even further to continue to regain your pride?
> 
> You said in your original post that you "want to be the woman that he is so hot for . . ." Did your flirting make him hot for you? Does the the fact that he didn't respond (as he should have) but rather retreated with his tail between his legs make you hot for him, or do you now respectful him even less?
> 
> You've also said that you are "happily married." Can you still say that? Can he? Is that your goal, or is it to get even?
> 
> I know your hurting because of what your H did and rightfully so. But please, think about these things before matters get out of hand and your family is seriously damaged.
> 
> I agree with Tall Average Guy that the two of you should seek counseling before things get worse between you. If you aren't inclined to do this for yourself and your H, think about the future of your children if your marriage continues go south.


Carmen ohio,

Yes, I agree it was very immature, I fully admit that. We're not even close to being 'even' though--I just wanted him to understand how painful it is, and he didn't seem to be able to grasp how much it could hurt until he experienced it. 

Do I still have resentment and feel hurt? Yes. But would I say we are happy together? Definitely. He has been a great husband and father for the last nearly 5 years. He knows if he cheats even ONCE when we're married, I will walk and never look back. He loves the kids so much, so maybe I'm naive, but I don't think he would ever do anything to break our family up. He said marriage vows are something he takes seriously, and even though it was WRONG, we weren't married or engaged when he cheated. Still sounds like a bunch of BS to me, but whatever. If he cheats even once, that's it. And he won't have some lame lack of sex and attention excuse for it like when we dated, because we boink like rabbits now.


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## Davelli0331

Laila619 said:


> TAG, no, we're not doing any counseling. Except for this issue, we seem to have a good marriage, happy, we get along well, we have a great sex life, we like each other, etc. He is working on sharing his feelings more with me instead of stuffing them. *That is what lead to this whole mess in the first place...he never told me he was unhappy I stopped sex when we were dating.* He is a lot more open now when something bothers him.


What I would want to know, and this is just me, is why he thought a proper course of action was to have sex with someone else instead of talking to you about it like a normal person would.

That's what I'd want to dig deeper into. My W also had all kinds of similar lame ass excuses as to why she cheated that sounded almost believable. My head wanted to believe them, but my gut wasn't buying it. When I really put the screws to her, she finally admitted what my gut knew all along: She cheated on me because she wanted to, because it felt good, because she didn't think she'd get caught, and because she thought it was fun.

I'm not saying you'll find the same thing, just revealing how it played out in my own marriage.


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## lifeistooshort

I don't know, I see a lot of value in empathy, which the wrongdoer doesn't have most of the time. How could they? If you were able to give him a little taste of how you felt that might go a long way. I know people are always going on about the high road, and I certainly don't advocate revenge affairs, but to some degree it's good for the wrongdoer to know how it feels. If my hb openly flirted with a woman right in front of me you can bet I'd flirt with another man right in front of him, and he could see how he likes it. I've done it before and it works. Petty? Probably, but as I said, empathy is a powerful thing. I wouldn't go so far as to have a revenge affair though, I'd get rid of him before that. Glad you guys are doing well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Laila8

Davelli0331 said:


> *What I would want to know, and this is just me, is why he thought a proper course of action was to have sex with someone else instead of talking to you about it like a normal person would.*
> 
> That's what I'd want to dig deeper into. My W also had all kinds of similar lame ass excuses as to why she cheated that sounded almost believable. My head wanted to believe them, but my gut wasn't buying it. When I really put the screws to her, she finally admitted what my gut knew all along: She cheated on me because she wanted to, because it felt good, because she didn't think she'd get caught, and because she thought it was fun.
> 
> I'm not saying you'll find the same thing, just revealing how it played out in my own marriage.


Because he was weak and was thinking with his d*ck? Because he doesn't have good character? Because he thought he could get away with it?

I'll never really know, but I assume all of the above. He SAYS it's because he thought I would dump him for complaining about my decision to end sex. He said he knew he had no right to demand sex from me, but he wanted and needed it very badly. He was a 30 year old guy who had not had sex before, so he was like a horny teenage boy.


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## Davelli0331

Laila619 said:


> Because he was weak and was thinking with his d*ck? Because he doesn't have good character? Because he thought he could get away with it?
> 
> I'll never really know, but I assume all of the above. *He SAYS it's because he thought I would dump him for complaining about my decision to end sex. He said he knew he had no right to demand sex from me, but he wanted and needed it very badly. He was a 30 year old guy who had not had sex before, so he was like a horny teenage boy.*


That is him not owning his mistake. That is him making excuses. Until he owns his mistake and actually says, "Laila, I did it bc I'm weak, lack integrity and character, and I thought I could get away with it" then you're letting him off the hook.

It may not seem like a big deal, but owning one's mistake is part of growing up and maturing, and it's a very large part of "showing remorse" vs "saying whatever I have to say to keep my BS off my ass".


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## Laila8

I have to admit, I'm really puzzled and alarmed reading old threads on TAM about guys with wives who cheated on them before marriage. In almost all those threads, the advice is to get an annulment or divorce ASAP. But it seems like many are a lot more understanding of a guy cheating before marriage because he wasn't getting sex. Or because guys are guys and they'll have little indiscretions and we women are supposed to understand that. I'm puzzled. I don't think anyone on this thread advised me to divorce him. I wonder why not? Is it because kids are involved?


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## Laila8

Davelli0331 said:


> That is him not owning his mistake. That is him making excuses. Until he owns his mistake and actually says, "Laila, I did it bc I'm weak, lack integrity and character, and I thought I could get away with it" then you're letting him off the hook.
> 
> It may not seem like a big deal, but owning one's mistake is part of growing up and maturing, and it's a very large part of "showing remorse" vs "saying whatever I have to say to keep my BS off my ass".


I totally agree. When I first found out about this, in my anger I told him he was a jerk, a pig, and he had weak character. To this day he still says he is a nice guy who made a 'mistake' and he does not have bad character, that he is still the strong character guy I thought he was. ARGH!!!


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## SomedayDig

Laila619 said:


> I have to admit, I'm really puzzled and alarmed reading old threads on TAM about guys with wives who cheated on them before marriage. In almost all those threads, the advice is to get an anullment or divorce ASAP. But it seems like many are a lot more understanding of a guy cheating before marriage because he wasn't getting sex. Or because guys are guys and they'll have little indiscretions and we women are supposed to understand that. I'm puzzled. I don't think anyone on this thread advised me to divorce him. I wonder why not? Is it because kids are involved?


I'll get bashed here, but the truth is most guys tend to beat other guys up more than they do the gals. Just calling it like I see it.


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## Laila8

Davelli0331 said:


> When I really put the screws to her, she finally admitted what my gut knew all along: She cheated on me because she wanted to, because it felt good, because she didn't think she'd get caught, and because she thought it was fun.


When you get down to the nitty gritty, isn't this really why ALL cheaters cheat? 

Sorry your wife did that to you.

I STRONGLY suspect that even if I had never stopped the sex, he still would have cheated with that girl had the same opportunity presented itself. The stopping of sex was just a convenient excuse.


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## Davelli0331

Laila619 said:


> I have to admit, I'm really puzzled and alarmed reading old threads on TAM about guys with wives who cheated on them before marriage. In almost all those threads, the advice is to get an anullment or divorce ASAP. But it seems like many are a lot more understanding of a guy cheating before marriage because he wasn't getting sex. Or because guys are guys and they'll have little indiscretions and we women are supposed to understand that. I'm puzzled. I don't think anyone on this thread advised me to divorce him. I wonder why not? Is it because kids are involved?


I personally don't advise immediate divorce because you're too emotional at this point to make a clear-headed decision. Your head will clear as the time goes on, and at that point, you can make a better decision. My $.02, anyway.


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## Davelli0331

Laila619 said:


> When you get down to the nitty gritty, isn't this really why ALL cheaters cheat?
> 
> Sorry your wife did that to you.
> 
> I STRONGLY suspect that even if I had never stopped the sex, he still would have cheated with that girl had the same opportunity presented itself. The stopping of sex was just a convenient excuse.


Yeah, but the WS has to own that. They can admit that they made a mistake, but they have to own that they made it instead of continuing holding on to excuses.

I don't mean to keep harping on that, but for me, having my W finally accept, admit, and internalize that was a major point in me moving forward and wanting to stay married to her.


----------



## tulsy

Laila619 said:


> I have to admit, I'm really puzzled and alarmed reading old threads on TAM about guys with wives who cheated on them before marriage. In almost all those threads, the advice is to get an annulment or divorce ASAP. But it seems like many are a lot more understanding of a guy cheating before marriage because he wasn't getting sex. Or because guys are guys and they'll have little indiscretions and we women are supposed to understand that. I'm puzzled. I don't think anyone on this thread advised me to divorce him. I wonder why not? Is it because kids are involved?


I think every case is unique. I wouldn't directly compare your situation to anyone else's. 

There is a guy in the forum right now who's wife cheated on him before they were married. He was suspicious, questioned her, and she was so upset she made him shave his head for a year for just questioning her. The whole time this was happening, she was actually having an affair. He finds out now, after they are married with a child, and she has no remorse, won't give details, rug-sweeps, threatens to leave with the child, etc.

In that guy's case, ya, I would tell *him* to leave. 

I made comments about your situation, and frankly, I don't care if you are a man or woman. I gave you my opinion, that I think you have something to work with, just based on what you said. It has nothing to do with the fact you are a woman.

There is another thread here where a woman is in a LTR with an Italian guy....he cheats on her repeatedly, makes her feel guilty, humiliates her at parties by flirting with other women, etc. I don't think she has anything to work with there, and it's got nothing to do with her being a woman. The guy has no redeeming qualities. In that case, I would tell *her* to leave.

Ultimately, the choice is yours. I think your marriage is salvageable. I don't know your or your husband, I can only go by your posts.

I will add that I think that depriving someone of sex is a HUGE deal, not some minor issue. Sex is a massive part of a relationship. I think if you are in a relationship with someone and decide you are no longer going to have sex with them, you are also in a way cheating. You are cheating someone out of sex. Sex definitely IS implied when you are in a relationship, and it certainly was implied in yours...until you decided to change that.

_I am just giving you my opinion_. I would have broken up with you, I honestly would have. It's that big of a deal for me, and I'm not the only one. 

He should have broken up with you, not cheated on you. That was a horrible thing to do. Now, it's up to you to decide if you think he is worth staying with.

This has nothing to do with being more understanding when a man cheats. *Your situation is the only situation I can even think of where I would recommend giving the relationship a shot. * It's that unique to me. As far as I'm concerned, cheating, male or female, is almost always an instant deal breaker. Reading your thread, I thought there was something worth saving.


----------



## Laila8

tulsy said:


> I will add that I think that depriving someone of sex is a HUGE deal, not some minor issue. Sex is a massive part of a relationship. I think if you are in a relationship with someone and decide you are no longer going to have sex with them, you are also in a way cheating. You are cheating someone out of sex. Sex definitely IS implied when you are in a relationship, and it certainly was implied in yours...until you decided to change that.


Tulsy, thanks for your opinion. I don't necessarily agree it's always implied in a dating relationship, at least not for my DH when we were dating. He had been a virgin and had not slept with other women before me. So I don't think he was dating me expecting to get it. He was fine with waiting in his other relationships. So if anything, it was more like a pleasant bonus.


----------



## tulsy

Laila619 said:


> Tulsy, thanks for your opinion. I don't necessarily agree it's always implied in a dating relationship, at least not for my DH when we were dating. He had been a virgin and had not slept with other women before me. So I don't think he was dating me expecting to get it. He was fine with waiting in his other relationships. So if anything, it was more like a pleasant bonus.


I was implied once you 2 started having sex for 5 months.


----------



## Davelli0331

Check your PMs please, Laila


----------



## tulsy

Laila619 said:


> Tulsy, thanks for your opinion. I don't necessarily agree it's always implied in a dating relationship, at least not for my DH when we were dating. He had been a virgin and had not slept with other women before me. So I don't think he was dating me expecting to get it. He was fine with waiting in his other relationships. So if anything, it was more like a pleasant bonus.


Sex IS typically implied when people are dating and exclusive. I don't know anyone who would continue to date someone they weren't sleeping with. Unless the person has serious hang-ups about sex, whether they be religious or childish fantasy, it's pretty standard behavior. It was standard enough for your relationship for 5 months.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Laila619 said:


> I have to admit, I'm really puzzled and alarmed reading old threads on TAM about guys with wives who cheated on them before marriage. In almost all those threads, the advice is to get an annulment or divorce ASAP. But it seems like many are a lot more understanding of a guy cheating before marriage because he wasn't getting sex. Or because guys are guys and they'll have little indiscretions and we women are supposed to understand that. I'm puzzled. I don't think anyone on this thread advised me to divorce him. I wonder why not? Is it because kids are involved?


Your post #405 suggests to me you have positive aspects to your relationship that give me hope you will find a way to have a happy future. You also seem to be willing to introspect and be honest with yourself, and have significant strength. 

I do not typically declare someone should end the relationship unless I sense there is abuse and the victim is in denial or seems to need encouragement. 

In my case, I would have left by now if we didn't have kids. So maybe that's why I want to have hope for your marriage too.

Regarding TAM, I sometimes feel frustrated by the advice that flows here. There are a many reasons why advice might seem to be different at times, in different threads, and way unhelpful and mired on the advice giver's own personal sh1tty situation and wounds. 

In any case, I hope have heard some useful advice here, felt some genuine support across the wires, and, as some say, are able to take what you need and leave the rest.

You seem like a wonderful person, in a sucky situation, doing the best you can to not ignore or overblow the pain, and to give your husband, and your children's father, the best chance to limit the damage, heal what's broken, and have the happy future together you always expected and deserve. It seems possible, still, your husband is worthy of such a chance. Seems to me, these things take time, and there is no benefit to you to just pull the plug now. I just hope you keep your eyes open, and stay conscious to how things are progressing or not, and don't become complacent such that you wake up 20 years later still hurting with someone you still cannot trust.


----------



## treyvion

Laila619 said:


> I totally agree. When I first found out about this, in my anger I told him he was a jerk, a pig, and he had weak character. To this day he still says he is a nice guy who made a 'mistake' and he does not have bad character, that he is still the strong character guy I thought he was. ARGH!!!


How the hell could he slip into someone's pant's unless he wanted to? You'd think that he wouldn't want to do that to his significant other.


----------



## PieceOfSky

tulsy said:


> Sex IS typically implied when people are dating and exclusive. I don't know anyone who would continue to date someone they weren't sleeping with. Unless the person has serious hang-ups about sex, whether they be religious or childish fantasy, it's pretty standard behavior. It was standard enough for your relationship for 5 months.


I don't understand the relevance of "standard behavior" here, or, more precisely, what your notion of "standard behavior" in dating is. I'm not trying to be rude (I hope!). I just don't see the relevance to OP's situation, or how it is supposed to be helpful.


----------



## Davelli0331

Guys, please, let's try not to derail this thread yet again into "did H deserve sex when they were dating, and if so, does that make his cheating understandable". We hashed that out for pages and pages, not a whit of which helped OP.


----------



## Squeakr

tulsy said:


> I was implied once you 2 started having sex for 5 months.


No one owes sex to another. Inplied or not. Also this relationship was not entirely sexless, it was just without inter course after month 5, there was still sex involved just not PIV.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Oh, yay - again with blaming her for HIS choice to say "Okay, we won't have sex any long til we get married."

Is there no integrity in people anymore?


----------



## Squeakr

SomedayDig said:


> Oh, yay - again with blaming her for HIS choice to say "Okay, we won't have sex any long til we get married."
> 
> Is there no integrity in people anymore?


Fewer and fewer. Which is why there are so many users and threads on CWI.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## treyvion

Squeakr said:


> No one owes sex to another. Inplied or not. Also this relationship was not entirely sexless, it was just without inter course after month 5, there was still sex involved just not PIV.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, but why marry someone if they are going to obligate themself to sleeping to someone outside of the marriage and not their spouse.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Laila619 said:


> Because he was weak and was thinking with his d*ck? Because he doesn't have good character? Because he thought he could get away with it?
> 
> I'll never really know, but I assume all of the above. He SAYS it's because he thought I would dump him for complaining about my decision to end sex. He said he knew he had no right to demand sex from me, but he wanted and needed it very badly. He was a 30 year old guy who had not had sex before, so he was like a horny teenage boy.


Which is why counseling can be very useful. You don't trust him, think he has low character and believe he is lying. All that may be completely true. But counseling can help him (and you) work toward getting some trust back and showing him what he has done. It can give him tools that you two can work on together to be honest, address issues head on, and be the man you deserve.

It can also help lessen your resentment and get him to better understand what he did to you and how it hurt you. 

Right now, I see you wanting to rug sweep. He did this awful thing, you detest him, but you just want to go on because he knows you would leave him if he does it again. But if you truly believe all you post about him, you are setting your marriage up to fail. If you want it to work, make fixing himself a requirement for your marriage.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Laila619 said:


> I have to admit, I'm really puzzled and alarmed reading old threads on TAM about guys with wives who cheated on them before marriage. In almost all those threads, the advice is to get an annulment or divorce ASAP. But it seems like many are a lot more understanding of a guy cheating before marriage because he wasn't getting sex. Or because guys are guys and they'll have little indiscretions and we women are supposed to understand that. I'm puzzled. I don't think anyone on this thread advised me to divorce him. I wonder why not? Is it because kids are involved?


My experience is that those men often don't know what they want, so they are open to possibilities. You indicated that you wanted to stay, so I tried to post accordingly.

I probably have been nicer than I would have with a man. So if you want that, I can give it. Like why are are you still not demanding counseling so that he figures out his poor boundaries and failure to man up and talk to you about an issue. Why are you not even kicking him to the couch, let alone asking him to leave the house? You ask for advice, but then give all kinds of reasons why it does not apply or won't really help. But then you complain because you think we should be harsher on your husband? Why are you not harsh? What have you really demanded out of him? Not much. So why do you expect him to get it.


----------



## Laila8

Tall Average Guy said:


> My experience is that those men often don't know what they want, so they are open to possibilities. You indicated that you wanted to stay, so I tried to post accordingly.
> 
> I probably have been nicer than I would have with a man. So if you want that, I can give it. Like why are are you still not demanding counseling so that he figures out his poor boundaries and failure to man up and talk to you about an issue. Why are you not even kicking him to the couch, let alone asking him to leave the house? You ask for advice, but then give all kinds of reasons why it does not apply or won't really help. But then you complain because you think we should be harsher on your husband? Why are you not harsh? What have you really demanded out of him? Not much. So why do you expect him to get it.


You make good points. I guess I haven't done any of those things because 1) some people advised me not to punish him, and 2) he has not cheated when we were married, so it feels weird to punish him NOW for something he did 5 years ago before we were married. 

Do you think I should tell him to not come home one night after work? Some posters were advising me to think very carefully before going down that road.

On a lighter note, I could tell him his punishment is he can't watch Sports Center for a month, lol. I would feel like his mommy though.


----------



## Laila8

PieceOfSky said:


> Your post #405 suggests to me you have positive aspects to your relationship that give me hope you will find a way to have a happy future. You also seem to be willing to introspect and be honest with yourself, and have significant strength.
> 
> I do not typically declare someone should end the relationship unless I sense there is abuse and the victim is in denial or seems to need encouragement.
> 
> In my case, I would have left by now if we didn't have kids. So maybe that's why I want to have hope for your marriage too.
> 
> Regarding TAM, I sometimes feel frustrated by the advice that flows here. There are a many reasons why advice might seem to be different at times, in different threads, and way unhelpful and mired on the advice giver's own personal sh1tty situation and wounds.
> 
> In any case, I hope have heard some useful advice here, felt some genuine support across the wires, and, as some say, are able to take what you need and leave the rest.
> 
> You seem like a wonderful person, in a sucky situation, doing the best you can to not ignore or overblow the pain, and to give your husband, and your children's father, the best chance to limit the damage, heal what's broken, and have the happy future together you always expected and deserve. It seems possible, still, your husband is worthy of such a chance. Seems to me, these things take time, and there is no benefit to you to just pull the plug now. I just hope you keep your eyes open, and stay conscious to how things are progressing or not, and don't become complacent such that you wake up 20 years later still hurting with someone you still cannot trust.


Thank you PieceofSky, that was a very nice post.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Laila619 said:


> You make good points. I guess I haven't done any of those things because 1) some people advised me not to punish him, and 2) he has not cheated when we were married, so it feels weird to punish him NOW for something he did 5 years ago before we were married.
> 
> Do you think I should tell him to not come home one night after work? Some posters were advising me to think very carefully before going down that road.
> 
> On a lighter note, I could tell him his punishment is he can't watch Sports Center for a month, lol. I would feel like his mommy though.


What do you need to help you heal? Would having him be out of the house for some time be useful to sort out your thoughts? 

Here is the thing I see - *you don't want to do anything*. You seem to just want this to go away. You note in one post how you hate your husband, think he lacks character and all but say he would cheat again if he had a chance. Yet in the other post, you talk about your great marriage and don't think it makes sense to punish him for something he did five years ago. So which is it?

What have you done other than post here? How about grabbing a book like Surviving the Affair and reading it with him? Anything else? Because what I see is you wanting every one to feel bad for you and join in about what a low-life he is, but don't want to have him actually change. Is that correct? Why?

Again, you are setting your marriage up to fail. You want to stay married to a man you don't respect and think will cheat again, but don't want him to change, other than maybe feel more bad about what he did. If you believe that about him, then it is a recipe for disaster.


----------



## Laila8

Tall Average Guy said:


> What do you need to help you heal? Would having him be out of the house for some time be useful to sort out your thoughts?
> 
> Here is the thing I see - *you don't want to do anything*. You seem to just want this to go away. You note in one post how you hate your husband, think he lacks character and all but say he would cheat again if he had a chance. Yet in the other post, you talk about your great marriage and don't think it makes sense to punish him for something he did five years ago. So which is it?
> 
> What have you done other than post here? How about grabbing a book like Surviving the Affair and reading it with him? Anything else? Because what I see is you wanting every one to feel bad for you and join in about what a low-life he is, but don't want to have him actually change. Is that correct? Why?
> 
> Again, you are setting your marriage up to fail. You want to stay married to a man you don't respect and think will cheat again, but don't want him to change, other than maybe feel more bad about what he did. If you believe that about him, then it is a recipe for disaster.


We've been talking about our thoughts and boundaries on cheating non-stop for the past month. We both read "His Needs, Her Needs." I read "Not Just Friends", we talked about it, and we both did the quizzes on Shirley Glass' website to see if we had vulnerable areas. So even though I didn't post that stuff, I have been doing something. It's a start at least.

I do not think he is a low life. I think he is a great husband and partner, but I think he is weak when it comes to temptation.


----------



## Davelli0331

When I was going through this, it was not abnormal for me to feel madly in love with my W one minute, then to be deeply, soul level angry with her the next. The discovery of affairs brings with it torrents of ever-changing emotions that don't make any sense sometimes, just read any other thread in CWI to see it. As such, it doesn't surprise me that Laila's postings seem erratic.

What helped with us was MC for us and IC for my W. We needed to get to the bottom of the weakness and lack of character that led her to cheat and to conceal it from me before and during our marriage. That may be helpful for you guys, too. A counselor might be able to point out the next steps for you guys, and might help each of you explore what exactly is going on in your heads right now.


----------



## lifeistooshort

So if their comes a point where you either can't have sex for a time or are just not boinking like rabbits, how do you know he won't find it elsewhere again? He'll still need it very badly; is it now a requirement that you continue to boink like rabbits for him to remain faithful? This would concern me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Laila8

lifeistooshort said:


> So if their comes a point where you either can't have sex for a time or are just not boinking like rabbits, how do you know he won't find it elsewhere again? He'll still need it very badly; is it now a requirement that you continue to boink like rabbits for him to remain faithful? This would concern me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hear you, and it could be a potential concern down the road. But I would say the answer is no. During my last pregnancy, I had a bleeding scare at 12 weeks along, and I was instructed to be on pelvic rest, so H and I did not have sex for about 4 months. During that time, he did not cheat on me. I am positive he did not because apart from going to work, we were always together. My H does not do "guys night out" or anything like that. And his job has no female co-workers, so I know he didn't cheat at work. 

I think the difference was he viewed me stopping sex when we were dating as a personal rejection. Whereas now that we're married, we've gone through periods where we haven't had a lot of sex, but it's never been by choice.

I'm NOT trying to defend him in any way, because I think what he did was absolutely disgusting and wrong, regardless of how much sex he was or wasn't getting. I'm just answering your question. It's still something to watch for though. For instance, what if down the road, I'm not giving him enough attention and he gets lonely and decides to seek it elsewhere? He says he would never do that, but obviously it will take a LONG time to rebuild trust.


----------



## treyvion

Squeakr said:


> Fewer and fewer. Which is why there are so many users and threads on CWI.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Most us who have been pushed here, probably do need a partner with a great deal of integrity and also a level of empathy...


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Laila619 said:


> We've been talking about our thoughts and boundaries on cheating non-stop for the past month. We both read "His Needs, Her Needs." I read "Not Just Friends", we talked about it, and we both did the quizzes on Shirley Glass' website to see if we had vulnerable areas. So even though I didn't post that stuff, I have been doing something. It's a start at least.


Great. What else? Have you checked all his records to make sure this has not happened more recently? You made sure there is no other contracts with the woman? 



> I do not think he is a low life. I think he is a great husband and partner, but I think he is weak when it comes to temptation.


Actually, your posts make it clear that you do feel that way. You note he lacks character, that he things with his d!ck, and that he is not trust worthy. Now he is weak regarding temptation. So why don't you want him to fix it? Why no counseling?

You want to be treated like the guys, so why are just sitting back and taking it. You claim to be angry, but I don't see much in the way beyond some yelling that you have shown him how angry you are? If you let this slide, with no work on his part, what is to stop this from happening again? Why are you so against making him to work to earn back your trust?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Laila619 said:


> I'm NOT trying to defend him in any way, because I think what he did was absolutely disgusting and wrong, regardless of how much sex he was or wasn't getting. I'm just answering your question. It's still something to watch for though. For instance, what if down the road, I'm not giving him enough attention and he gets lonely and decides to seek it elsewhere? He says he would never do that, but obviously it will take a LONG time to rebuild trust.


So are you going to live in fear of this happening for the rest of your marriage, or are you going to take steps that lessen the likelihood of it occurring?


----------



## tulsy

Laila619 said:


> I think the difference was he viewed me stopping sex when we were dating as a personal rejection.


FWIW, I can relate to that rejection. I was dating a woman years ago who suddenly lacked desire to have sex, after having sex for months. She wanted to spend all of our time together, do everything couples do, but just no more sex. She would freak out if another woman even looked at me, would try to cover my eyes if a nude woman was on screen in a movie, etc. It was humiliating. I never cheated on her, but looking back, if a pretty girl was willing, I think I would have. I'm not the same boy I used to be, but that rejection had a lasting effect, even years later.



Laila619 said:


> I'm NOT trying to defend him in any way, because I think what he did was absolutely disgusting and wrong, regardless of how much sex he was or wasn't getting.


Ya, it was. I agree. And, no, feeling rejected is not a defense or an excuse to cheat. Neither is saying "I was weak"....it's STILL just an excuse. There is no excuse for cheating. You can't defend cheating. You said you want to stay with the guy, so all you can do is look back at the situation and try to understand the guy's frame of mind at the time. Whether you believe his sincerity or not is up to you. 



Laila619 said:


> It's still something to watch for though. For instance, what if down the road, I'm not giving him enough attention and he gets lonely and decides to seek it elsewhere? He says he would never do that, but obviously it will take a LONG time to rebuild trust.


To be honest, no one really knows for sure that their spouse will be faithful. If you thought for a minute your spouse would cheat on you, you never would have married the person. This is why most people don't worry about it too much, because you can't spend you life wondering "well, what if..."

The problem for you and others who have to deal with an affair is that your spouse DID cheat, so of course you have to take his past behavior into consideration. Automatically, he is lumped into the "more likely to cheat, given the opportunity" category. 

It really sucks, and I feel for you. His track record is tarnished, and you're right, it will take a LONG time to rebuild that trust. For a lot of people, that trust never totally come back.

What steps are you's taking to rebuild that trust?


----------



## lifeistooshort

Laila619 said:


> I hear you, and it could be a potential concern down the road. But I would say the answer is no. During my last pregnancy, I had a bleeding scare at 12 weeks along, and I was instructed to be on pelvic rest, so H and I did not have sex for about 4 months. During that time, he did not cheat on me. I am positive he did not because apart from going to work, we were always together. My H does not do "guys night out" or anything like that. And his job has no female co-workers, so I know he didn't cheat at work.
> 
> I think the difference was he viewed me stopping sex when we were dating as a personal rejection. Whereas now that we're married, we've gone through periods where we haven't had a lot of sex, but it's never been by choice.
> 
> I'm NOT trying to defend him in any way, because I think what he did was absolutely disgusting and wrong, regardless of how much sex he was or wasn't getting. I'm just answering your question. It's still something to watch for though. For instance, what if down the road, I'm not giving him enough attention and he gets lonely and decides to seek it elsewhere? He says he would never do that, but obviously it will take a LONG time to rebuild trust.



You could be right, and I hope you are. I suppose the real question is whether he'll come to you with issues first, before he does anything stupid. Passive people are not known for confronting issues, I know because I'm married to someone like that. Seems to me that if he had done that in the first place you wouldn't be having this issue. I really hope this works out for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tall Average Guy

lifeistooshort said:


> You could be right, and I hope you are. I suppose the real question is whether he'll come to you with issues first, before he does anything stupid. Passive people are not known for confronting issues, I know because I'm married to someone like that. Seems to me that if he had done that in the first place you wouldn't be having this issue. I really hope this works out for you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


See, I think this is crap. She is just hoping it won't happen again, rather than demanding steps to try and reduce the likelihood. She is rug-sweeping, and crossing her fingers. 

If he is passive, he needs to address this. They need to work to be able to both voice their issues and not hide them. If he really has that weak of character, reading a few books won't get him there.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Tall Average Guy said:


> See, I think this is crap. She is just hoping it won't happen again, rather than demanding steps to try and reduce the likelihood. She is rug-sweeping, and crossing her fingers.
> 
> If he is passive, he needs to address this. They need to work to be able to both voice their issues and not hide them. If he really has that weak of character, reading a few books won't get him there.


I'm inclined to agree with you, but she does not seem particularly inclined to want to deal with this as it really needs to be dealt with. Thus my post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Laila8

So, just to clarify, you think I should
1) kick him out of the house for a little bit
2) tell him to sleep on the couch
3) go to counseling to help him communicate better and to address our issues

If I do not do these things, it will be bad news for the marriage?

I know a lot of people have suggested counseling, but honestly I've never put much stock in it. I know it can be a very helpful tool for some though.


----------



## carmen ohio

Laila619 said:


> I have to admit, I'm really puzzled and alarmed reading old threads on TAM about guys with wives who cheated on them before marriage. In almost all those threads, the advice is to get an annulment or divorce ASAP. But it seems like many are a lot more understanding of a guy cheating before marriage because he wasn't getting sex. Or because guys are guys and they'll have little indiscretions and we women are supposed to understand that. * I'm puzzled. I don't think anyone on this thread advised me to divorce him. I wonder why not?* Is it because kids are involved?
> 
> ***
> 
> I totally agree. When I first found out about this, in my anger I told him he was a jerk, a pig, and he had weak character. *To this day he still says he is a nice guy who made a 'mistake' and he does not have bad character, that he is still the strong character guy I thought he was. ARGH!!!*
> 
> ***
> 
> You make good points. I guess I haven't done any of those things because 1) some people advised me not to punish him, and 2) he has not cheated when we were married, so it feels weird to punish him NOW for something he did 5 years ago before we were married.
> 
> *Do you think I should tell him to not come home one night after work?* Some posters were advising me to think very carefully before going down that road.
> 
> On a lighter note, I could tell him his *punishment* is he can't watch Sports Center for a month, lol. I would feel like his mommy though.
> 
> ***
> 
> So, just to clarify, you think I should
> 1) kick him out of the house for a little bit
> 2) tell him to sleep on the couch
> 3) go to counseling to help him communicate better and to address our issues
> 
> *If I do not do these things, it will be bad news for the marriage?
> 
> I know a lot of people have suggested counseling, but honestly I've never put much stock in it. I know it can be a very helpful tool for some though.*


Dear Laila619,

You are quite understandably struggling with the news that your H cheated on you before you were married. Equally clear, and also not surprising, is that you are struggling to find a way to overcome the disappointment and pain that you feel as a result of his infidelity.

You ask why no one has recommended that you divorce him, almost as if you wish someone had. But you know that this is not the solution. You imply that you would like him to admit that he is of weak character but, if he did, would this increase your esteem for him or make you respect him more? You also discuss what should be his "punishment" but, if you have read many posts on TAM about reconciliation, you know that fixing a broken marriage is not about punishing the wayward spouse but about his or her honesty and remorse and the rehabilitation of both marriage partners.

Finally, you say you don't put much stock in counseling but, truth be told, you badly need it.

My concern for you is that, if you let this emotional wound continue to fester, it will eventually corrupt your relationship with your H and damage if not destroy your marriage. I don't think you want that.

Please, seek help. TAM is a wonderful resource for betrayed, hurting people but it is not a substitute for sound, professional advice.


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## tulsy

Laila619 said:


> So, just to clarify, you think I should
> 1) kick him out of the house for a little bit
> 2) tell him to sleep on the couch
> .


Who advised this and why exactly?


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## Tall Average Guy

Laila619 said:


> So, just to clarify, you think I should
> 1) kick him out of the house for a little bit
> 2) tell him to sleep on the couch
> 3) go to counseling to help him communicate better and to address our issues
> 
> If I do not do these things, it will be bad news for the marriage?
> 
> I know a lot of people have suggested counseling, but honestly I've never put much stock in it. I know it can be a very helpful tool for some though.


I would have suggested either of points 1 or 2 when you initially found out. Some distance to give you space and show him the severity of things would have been good. I still think the couch might work, but agree that kicking him out now might not make sense any more.

Number 3 seems like a must, based on your comments. Otherwise, it is you just hoping that he does not do it again. You say you want things to work in part for the kids. Then take steps to try to prevent bad things from happening again for your kids (you don't seem willing to do it for yourself).


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