# Help. Feeling quite taken for granted and hopeless...



## bild-a-loco (Jan 22, 2014)

Just found this forum, been reading it off-and-on for the last few days, so hopefully someone out there can offer helpful advice. 

Trying to keep this short, been married 20 years, we were together for three additional before that, and over the course of the last ten years, our relationship has seemingly been in a death spiral. I've used the analogy with my wife many times that it's like a boat that's been filling up with water a little bit at a time and it's finally at the edge of sinking - doesn't take but that one extra little drop to send it under. Personally, I feel like the boat's sunk, and furthermore, she's pushing it farther down in the silt at the bottom of the river each passing week. 

My problem seems to be a common concoction; she has become increasingly less-attentive of me in almost all respects. She doesn't really listen when I talk, she tunes me out while watching TV or we're in the car, I'm treated rather like an old brown shoe - comfortable and she likes to know I'm there but I'm not given much attention. I'm not codependent or an attention hog, but it's gotten very hurtful. We've been to counseling off-and-on for the last half dozen years, she acknowledges she has a bad habit of just tuning me out and she's resolved to remedy this situation a hundred times, but it continues. The therapist gave us plenty of exercises to do, recommendations for books to read, etc., and she happily agrees to do them in the office, but once we're home, she doesn't do them and she doesn't read the books. She has plenty of time to read endless cookbooks and do things she's interested in, but apparently no time for me. 

And, no surprise, our sex life has gotten progressively worse as well. I won't go into details in this regard as I may do that later in another section of the forum, but we've had an extraordinary sex life in the past and even just in the last couple years, we had something of a magical rebirth in that regard that gave me great hope. Then we planned a "fun" fantasy weekend which she called off two weeks before it occurred because she "got religion" and now thinks just about everything fun and kinky is sinful. Yes, we've talked about this with the counselor too, but to no avail. I've gotten to the point where I don't even want to try anymore. 

We have a sixteen-year-old daughter and she's seen this disconnect with my wife as well, it's not just me. There's been plenty of times when we're all in the TV room together and she'll get angry and snap something out like, "Mom! Dad's talking to you!" At which point wife will snap out of wherever she's at. And yes, this does seem to be a problem just with me, I haven't noticed her doing it with anyone else. 

I'm not trying to sound like a selfish brat here, I seriously love this woman and I don't know what to do. We've been together for twenty-three years, and last year, she forgot my birthday - that's where we're at. 

Any helpful advice would be most appreciated. Thanks and take care.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Maybe she is in the early stages of Alzheimer's.

File for divorce to wake her
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

She seems to know that you are not going anywhere. She is very comfortable and, dare I say it, selfish. She is accommodating her own comfort and won't go out of her way to see to your emotional and sexual needs.

The standard response is to show her what she stands to lose. I think this works. I have a friend who always says, 'They don't take you seriously until you have your bags packed and are heading out the door.'

Tell her that you won't tolerate this anymore. It is on her to fix it - with a doctor, counselor, pastor, or just her own initiative - or you will be gone.

You have to have the resolve to do it, though. (I know how hard that is. Believe me, I know. )


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

She's tuning you out and taking you for granted because you are unwittingly encouraging her to. And the more you keep doing what you're doing, the worse it will get. This is going to hurt like hell and you will not like it, but the sooner you start facing it the sooner you can start figuring out how to turn your relationship around - she's not attracted to you anymore and hasn't been for a long time. It's not going to be easy but it can most certainly be fixed.

How? Various reasons. Primarily you need to be much more masculine, and you need to start fully meeting her needs.

But first you have to understand what being more masculine truly means (I personally had a lot of misconceptions when I first heard that) and how to truly meet your wife's needs (I personally thought I was doing a pretty good job...turns out I was WAY off).

But once you figure these things out and apply it, she will become attracted to you again and be seeking YOUR attention.

What I've mentioned above are just the tip of the iceberg...and it is a big iceberg...but it's totally possible to thaw it out. But you've got a lot of work to do. I'm 20 years in also, took me that long to finally figure it out when things were slowly going further south, and then it took me several months of at times excruciating work to turn it around. Lots of bad, long standing habits and thought processes I had to undo in myself. And it will take the rest of my life being vigilant to keep it this way and not slip back again. But now I have figured it out and was able to turn it around - and it is SO worth it - for both her and I 


Also - stop talking about the relationship with her. You are demonstrating your lack of confidence and lack of leadership when you do this (masculine traits). That's why the counseling isn't working. She is giving it an honest effort at least, that's a good sign, but no amount of talking to her will "convince" her to be attracted to you again, even if that's what she wants. It's an emotion, a feeling, not reason or logic. And she either feels it or she doesn't. She can't make herself be attracted to you. But YOU can BECOME more attractive to her by changing your behavior and your actions. And not for the sake of pleasing her - on the contrary, you need to learn how to be your own man again - for yourself. And that's what will draw her to you again.

Just start making the changes in yourself and if she questions or asks, tell her you're working to become a better man for yourself and your family. Period. Before long, she'll be loving your attentiveness to her and your renewed masculinity so much she'll stop asking and start telling you how happy she is and how much she loves you - and showing you. If you do it right, I guarantee it will happen. My jaw about hit the floor the first few times my wife started acting attracted to me again - including some ways she NEVER had in our entire history. It made me realize just how far gone it was, how long it had been missing...and confirmed that yes, that is what was missing. She didn't even have a clue - she just started reacting again as if it had always been that way - when in reality things had been deteriorating for years and she had been neglecting me more and more, taking me for granted, even showing subtle signs of attraction towards other men (innocently but still a bad sign). But that's just fine. The past is the past. She doesn't need to know how or why or all the things that were missing for so long or the pain I went through etc. That would only stir negative feelings in her. My goal is to create positive feelings in myself and in her, not negative. All I care now is that I am a happy man within myself again, and she feels that attraction to ME again - and shows it.

PS - don't worry about the religious thing...as you become more attractive to her again it will become a moot point - and could even work to your advantage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

It's ALWAYS the same thing. We're NEVER going to fix this ****.

Do the 180 and find some on the side.


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## bild-a-loco (Jan 22, 2014)

Wow, these were not necessarily the type of answers I was anticipating. Alte Dame, I have thought about doing what you suggest and I just might, for whatever it'll be worth. 

@Justtryin, I have to admit, I really have no idea what you were trying to say. But whatever it is, I'm far from a "masculine" guy and never have been, I was a hair band guitar guy back in the 1980's, and I've never been a muscle-bound big guy, never had a ****y attitude, don't hunt, drink, smoke, drive 4x4's or any of that stuff. If I suddenly started acting like Chuck Norris I think she would send me off to the looney bin. 

I'm not entertaining the idea of an affair - geez. I have more respect for myself than that if nothing else. I'm a Southern boy with a teenage daughter, going out and getting a quick hook up would only make things infinitely worse. 

And on that note, she did it again last night - we'd made plans to go out of town on February 8th, talked about it at length just last Sunday and I was looking forward to it quite a bit - if for no other reason than I would see some of my friends in New Orleans and have fun with them. She signed my daughter up for a piano competition yesterday on the same day - $200 non-refundable entry fee. She didn't forget our trip to New Orleans, to quote her, "she thought we could still do both." We talked about this EXACT thing last Sunday night and concluded we couldn't do both and opted for the New Orleans trip because doing both would put us getting into New Orleans too late and make for too much of a hassle. I booked a hotel Monday and Monday night I told her how much I was looking forward to the trip. So my confused sixteen-year-old, knowing all this, told me last night that wifey told her in the car, "don't tell your dad about this tonight, it might make him mad." She knew full-well what she was doing - she wanted to go to the piano competition and have our daughter in it, and that trumped everything else. We had talked to our daughter about it last Sunday and she didn't care if she went or not - some years she does, some years she doesn't, so this was purely wife's decision. She apologized over and over about it last night at bedtime when the whole thing became known, saying she had just misunderstood and thought we could still do both, but she has no idea our daughter told me what she did. 

This is getting really hurtful.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

> She signed my daughter up for a piano competition yesterday on the same day - $200 non-refundable entry fee.
> 
> So my confused sixteen-year-old, knowing all this, told me last night that wifey told her in the car, "don't tell your dad about this tonight, it might make him mad." She knew full-well what she was doing - she wanted to go to the piano competition and have our daughter in it, and that trumped everything else.
> 
> She apologized over and over about it last night at bedtime when the whole thing became known, saying she had just misunderstood and thought we could still do both, but she has no idea our daughter told me what she did.


I believe her ignoring you and dismissal of you is very deliberate. The question is why? 

Based on her communication with your daughter, I don't think she's going to be honest with you and tell you why she's being this way. Unfortunately for you, this is going to continue to hurt as long as you keep seeking her out to get your needs met. You can try, but you're going to have to lower expectations of her cooperating with you. I'm sorry you're experiencing this.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

Don't be surprised that you aren't exactly sure what I was talking about - that's the whole point. That's why us guys in long term relationships can't figure out what we're doing "wrong". Because we naturally tend to fall into patterns that cause our wives to lose their attraction to us even while we think we are being a "good husband". And society backs up those bad patterns, making us think that's the way we're supposed to be. But once you get it, it all starts to make sense.

You have the exact same misconceptions about masculinity that I did. My wife isn't into that big tough guy macho junk either. That's NOT AT ALL what I am referring to. I'm referring to things like being a leader in the relationship. Being an emotional rock, a safe place for your wife. Being confident and comfortable in your own skin. Being confident with your wife, knowing how to handle her the way she needs you to. Not afraid to speak your mind and STAND FIRM on your values. Not afraid of HER - not afraid of losing her, not afraid of her emotions, not afraid of her reactions, not afraid of her rejection, etc. Establishing boundaries and values and giving her the choice to agree and join you or not. A man can be a scrawny, nerdy, quiet guy and still be very masculine for his woman. It's all in your behavior, not your looks or hobbies or whatever, and you don't have to be loud and crude.

I'm going to guess that you let your wife call the shots on a lot of things. Be honest. And you have any number of excuses why you let her. Primarily to "keep her happy", right? Or it's what "she wants"? I'm also going to guess that when she rejects you, you react with some sort of emotional response to her - whine, pout, complain, get angry, etc. And when you disagree with her, you either end up arguing with her, or you end up caving in to avoid an argument. These are all signs of a lack of masculinity. These are all causing your wife to lose attraction to you, with each passing year. Likely it's subconscious on her part, like my wife was. She may not even realize it's happening, or why. But obviously you do because you see it and feel it. And eventually it will get to the point that she begins to become attracted to men who do have the more masculine behaviors that are missing in you, and/or seeking to have her needs met that you aren't fulfilling - either in reality, or in fantasy. It's subconscious, it's feelings, and she'll find any reason to justify it - or deny it - when it happens. She may or may not have some sort of affair, that's up to the quality of the woman, but whether she does or doesn't, bottom line is the same - her attraction will not be towards YOU. She will put you as a lower priority in her life, be less affectionate with you, become more and more distant. Look at this forum, man, it happens constantly. Most guys never see it coming, or can't believe it got to that point, when they were "trying" so hard.

You mention your wife says "this might make (you) mad". And you say you are hurt. She knows that her behavior controls your emotions, whether she wants to or not. That YOU react to HER. Again, NOT masculine. Not attractive. I know precisely how you are feeling because I was in the same boat. The unfortunate irony is that the more she is distant, the more emotional you feel, making you less and less masculine, which turns her off more and more. It's a downward spiral. You have to stop letting her reactions and behavior control your emotions. Seems impossible though doesn't it? That's why it's so hard. But it works. Once you see it working it will encourage you and give you confidence to keep becoming more masculine again, and it becomes a positive, upward spiral. 

What's also very tricky and hard is that while you are doing that, you do not want to neglect your wife. She needs to know that YOU are the guy who knows how to meet her needs. You are the guy she goes to when she's upset and needs to talk. You are the guy who makes her feel special and appreciated. You are the guy who validates her. But you are not a doormat - you are still your own man. You are not her girlfriend. You may be her best friend, but you must be her lover FIRST. That's why the masculinity is so key when meeting her needs. You probably have misunderstanding on exactly what her needs are too, and how to meet them properly, just as you have misunderstandings of what masculinity is. In fact I can almost guarantee it. It's a whole new world man, you're eyes will be opened. But you have to figure this stuff out first.

It's confusing at first and there is a lot to this - we're talking about emotions, feminine vs. masculine and what that really means, years if not decades of certain behaviors that have to be changed, lots of bad or conflicting advice from other people, etc. I found the answers, the help I needed, with certain ebooks and a subscribers forum that came with it, and it had all the answers I needed and how to do it. Was hard and trying at times, but the alternative - a failed marriage or an unhappy one - would have been harder and not very rewarding to say the least. Still it has taken me over 6 months to finally get to the point that I can now say my marriage is better than it EVER has been, from her perspective and mine. But I did have 20 years of baggage to get over!

Some guys here swear by the Married Man's Sex Life Primer (MMSL or MMSLP), which deals with masculinity, but it wasn't for me (or my wife).  I needed a different approach. The "His Needs, Her Needs" book is big around here too, and while it's ok and worth looking at, it's severely lacking in substance, as well as having no truly working actionable plans for a guy. I finally went for Calle Zorro - and my life changed. For the better. Best money I have ever spent.

Whatever you choose to do, you'll see the same themes popping up over and over as you dig into what is wrong in your relationship - masculinity, and meeting needs. Those are the keys. Unfortunately there is a LOT of misconceptions surrounding both of those themes and how to properly go about it. I found some advice on this forum that was helpful, some that was useless, and some that was counterproductive. Don't get hung up on the "she's not meeting MY needs" part, that will only send you further down the rabbit hole. Use that hurt and/or resentment to instead motivate you to figure out the real, sustainable solution - not to take it out on your wife or wallow in your own misery.

Feel free to "PM" me if you'd like, or respond here publicly, either way. I know the hurt you're feeling, and before I found the right materials to help me finally figure it all out, I found the harder I tried the further away she got from me. I actually got to a point where I had an emotional breakdown. I was feeling things I'd never felt in my life, the insecurity and feelings of inadequacy, and had no idea how to process it, it was all new territory for me and was scary as hell. I am immensely grateful for the products and support I found and am such a strong believer now I want to share it with every man that was in my position - both wives and husbands benefit and get the relationship they've always wanted. No I'm not compensated in any way, shape or form by any of those products. Just a happy, satisfied man who wants to share the road to the answers!

I came back here to this forum, which is where I first started out looking for answers, and I see all the struggles, the misconceptions, the hurt, anger, bitterness, and resentment from men towards their wives or even women in general. They don't realize, as I didn't, that they have everything they want and need at their grasp...they just don't know how to do it. They place the blame on their wives, or they give up. Which if a wife cheats, that is her responsibility and fault of course and by no means is ever excused, same as a man. However the loss of attraction in the first place is solely within a man's power. Every man has the ability to keep his wife attracted to him. Our culture just simply does not teach us how, and in fact is filled with the exact opposite - "ideals" and social norms that actually encourage us and teach us how to become LESS attractive to our wives without realizing it. Even women fall prey to it, thinking they "want" a certain type of man, then when they get that man, they eventually lose their attraction to him (even if she still loves him like my wife did me - part of what confused me so much - love yes, attraction no). Fortunately though, you can be the "good guy" they want (fully meeting her needs - knowing what her needs really are) as well as exhibit specific traits of "bad boy" behavior (masculinity - not the macho, jerk kind either) they desire. All while being your own man, answering to no one, and not doing anything you don't want to do. 

The guys who complain, whiningly, (and there are a lot of them) that "we do everything for them and they can do anything they want, moving on as soon as you stop doing everything to please them" are unfortunately terribly misguided and doomed to a lifetime of failed relationships until they figure it out (if ever). I've known very manly men, the big tough macho country boys like you mention (I grew up near a farming community), who have that same attitude. They are not being masculine at all in that thinking, despite their muscles and tattoos and beards and off road trucks and guns and machismo. That's a whiny, pouting little boy speaking. Same with the guys who try to plead and reason with their wives, "look how good I am, how well I treat you, why don't you care for my feelings, I'm very easy to please, this is all I'm asking..." 

I'm not trying to disrespect the guys who are like this - I myself had both of those outlooks at one point or another. With the same losing outcome. I'm just calling it out for what it is, now that I know. It's needy little boy behavior and it turns every woman off. And honestly it's hard to shake, the longer you've been in a relationship. But it can be shaken, and you'll both love the outcome.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Have you tried things like, as soon as you see her mind has wandered, stop and say loudly (not angrily) I'M SPEAKING. Command attention.

Also you mentioned that the TV was on in one example. I have a hard time splitting my brain and get very distracted when the TV is on when I'm on the phone, etc. Just turn it off and THEN speak. You can always wait until a commercial if it's a favorite show of hers but remove the distraction.

I think showing her that you expect her to listen when you have something to say (assuming you aren't a rambling chatty cathy) then gradually she may start to listen.

I do think you have to tell her in no uncertain terms that it's a HUGE issue; she knows it is, she is disregarding your words and your plans/actions and you are going to start treating her as she treats you. Her actions (of ignoring you and undermining your plans) show that she really doesn't care what you think/say/do. Lay it out like that. No need to tip toe. Then pull a 180. Before long SHE will be engaging YOU in conversation.


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## sunvalley (Dec 4, 2011)

bild-a-loco said:


> And on that note, she did it again last night - we'd made plans to go out of town on February 8th, talked about it at length just last Sunday and I was looking forward to it quite a bit - if for no other reason than I would see some of my friends in New Orleans and have fun with them. She signed my daughter up for a piano competition yesterday on the same day - $200 non-refundable entry fee. She didn't forget our trip to New Orleans, to quote her, "she thought we could still do both." We talked about this EXACT thing last Sunday night and concluded we couldn't do both and opted for the New Orleans trip because doing both would put us getting into New Orleans too late and make for too much of a hassle.


My suggestion? Tell her, "Okay. I'm going to New Orleans." Then STOP. No explanation, no "sorry," no nothing. Flat statement of fact. Carry on as usual. (And MEAN IT -- pack bags and leave on the date you say you'll leave.)

If she complains, cries or starts a barrage of questions, say, "We already discussed this. If *you* want to stay here, that's *your* choice." Again, STOP. No "sorry," no explanation, no discussion, no nothing. Flat statement of fact and that's it. And again, leave on the date you say you will leave.

I agree that your wife is deliberately dismissing and disrespecting you. She didn't misunderstand about the New Orleans situation; that was her excuse to save face when you questioned her. You are absolutely right; she knew what she was doing. And for whatever reason, she doesn't want to spend time with you (hence the not listening even in the same room, choosing to do something else when plans are already made, etc. etc.) I am sorry you're going through this. But you need to stop catering to HER and stand up for yourself. You do not deserve this.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Do you see any other signs that she's "not ok" in any way lately? I only ask because some of her behavior to me sounds beyond disrespectful to me, but also kind of strange and disconnected from reality.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Go to New Orleans by yourself then or take a friend.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I agree with the advice to go on the trip without her.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

I don't think she is cheating however...
You should imo get some voice activated recorders for her car and a few in the house just to get an idea of where her head is at.
You have to figure this out and get out of this limbo [email protected]


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## sunvalley (Dec 4, 2011)

tom67 said:


> I don't think she is cheating however...
> You should imo get some voice activated recorders for her car and a few in the house just to get an idea of where her head is at.
> You have to figure this out and get out of this limbo [email protected]


I agree about the VAR's. However, she's already demonstrated where her head's at.

OP has said they've been through marriage counseling. The wife has promised and promised and promised to work on things ... and she never follows through. She apparently has no problem doing her own things, dropping a $200 non-refundable fee on a piano competition — AFTER she made plans with her husband — and attempting to deceive him (remember how she told their daughter not to tell him or it might make him mad?). She also mentally ignores him even when they're in the same room. Speaking from my own experience, that shows his wife doesn't give a **** about him or his wants/needs anymore — except when it suits her to do so. She may not say that out loud, or even acknowledge it deep down inside herself. But that's where her head's at. The VARs may show *why* this is happening. 

However, if it's been going on for a while (I believe bild-a-loco said it's been happening for at least 10 years), and the VARs really don't show why, then OP may have to choose whether he wants to live like this for the rest of his life (or hers).


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

Yeah, it's either that she is checking-out mentally...or really is doing some sort of passive avoidance. The real teller is her excuse about New Orleans and then what she said to daughter...which seems to me that she is passively pulling out any emotional investment in the marriage.

Was there a time that you argued a lot...when she actually used to get pissed about things she wished you would do? Maybe she asked for or wished for a lot of things that just got put off that she gave up. People who lose all hope do this sorta thing sometimes. Deep down, she probably doesn't believe that anything will change.

But I really have to echo what justtryin said about exerting your masculine leadership in the family...as many women are DESPERATE to have that in their husbands...but that concept has almost been obliterated in the modern context and really has to be sought out. I learned a lot from Calle Zorro materials myself.


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## bild-a-loco (Jan 22, 2014)

Thanks to everyone for all the great advice - I really needed fresh eyes to look at this and help me out. I'll look into the VAR's, actually never thought of those and that might help a lot, although knowing her, she generally sings a lot when she's in the car by herself! 

We talked a lot more over the weekend and she finally, last night, realized the gravity of the situation and is seemingly quite upset with herself over it - but she's been that way before. I suggested maybe I should go spend a couple of nights at a friend's house and she got VERY rattled by that, cried, and begged me not to go. We have a counseling session scheduled again, so we'll see if he'll hold her feet to the fire for not following through on the stuff she promised in the last session - she told me last night she's not looking forward to that because she knows she hasn't done anything that was suggested in the last few sessions. And according to her, she doesn't know why she hasn't, she just hasn't. She swears up and down she loves me to death, never means or meant to be hurtful or neglectful, but she readily admits it's become a pattern with her - so that's something I suppose. Will continue to lay things out and just see what happens.

Won't really be taking the trip to New Orleans by myself, all my friends down there would immediately be bugging about where she was and I don't want our troubles to go public just yet - once that happens in Louisiana it goes viral quick and before the weekend's out, there would be rumors that we'd had fights with frying pans or that she was terminally ill with a flesh eating bacteria. I did over the weekend emphasis that something else we were planning to do in March I would be doing by myself - that way there would be no way it could be messed up - and she did look very surprised at that, so, at least I am getting her attention. :scratchhead:


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

bild-a-loco said:


> Thanks to everyone for all the great advice - I really needed fresh eyes to look at this and help me out. I'll look into the VAR's, actually never thought of those and that might help a lot, although knowing her, she generally sings a lot when she's in the car by herself!
> 
> We talked a lot more over the weekend and she finally, last night, realized the gravity of the situation and is seemingly quite upset with herself over it - but she's been that way before. I suggested maybe I should go spend a couple of nights at a friend's house and she got VERY rattled by that, cried, and begged me not to go. We have a counseling session scheduled again, so we'll see if he'll hold her feet to the fire for not following through on the stuff she promised in the last session - she told me last night she's not looking forward to that because she knows she hasn't done anything that was suggested in the last few sessions. And according to her, she doesn't know why she hasn't, she just hasn't. She swears up and down she loves me to death, never means or meant to be hurtful or neglectful, but she readily admits it's become a pattern with her - so that's something I suppose. Will continue to lay things out and just see what happens.
> 
> Won't really be taking the trip to New Orleans by myself, all my friends down there would immediately be bugging about where she was and I don't want our troubles to go public just yet - once that happens in Louisiana it goes viral quick and before the weekend's out, there would be rumors that we'd had fights with frying pans or that she was terminally ill with a flesh eating bacteria. I did over the weekend emphasis that something else we were planning to do in March I would be doing by myself - that way there would be no way it could be messed up - and she did look very surprised at that, so, at least I am getting her attention. :scratchhead:


Well it's your life but I would go to New Orleans.
She told you basically that's just the way she is and she isn't going to change.
Again, you can't change her but you can change what you will put up with.
Good luck.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

bild-a-loco said:


> She swears up and down she loves me to death,


You know that's a lie, right? And the motivation for that lie is known only to the MILLIONS of women who use it daily to keep what they have and not have their husband say "F-it, I'm gone".

I posted this earlier today. It is going to be my go-to post now for all of these situations. I don't even need to change the number of years. That's about when it started, right? Once you can wrap your head around the fact that you could have been married to someone for so long that doesn't really like you, this post may start to help. Unfortunately, you're going to just pass me off as some crazy old coot that is bitter about life (GUILTY!).



MrK said:


> Forgive me if I sound like Captain Obvious here, but you know she doesn't love you any more, right? It happens ALL THE TIME. And 11 years is right in the Walk-Away-Wife sweet-spot. She may say she loves you, but it's ALWAYS after you say it first, right? Never initiates a hug or kiss, does she? If you stopped initiating sex, you would go the rest of your marriage sexless, right?
> 
> 180 time. Learn it. Live it. Love it. It's all you've got my friend.


She hasn't loved you for a long time. And once they "leave", they rarely come back. She MAY be cheating. Happy marriages in which there are ZERO red flags suffer infidelity, so ANY wife could be cheating. But that's not your problem. She's a walk-away-wife. Read up on it while your reading up on the 180. Live with it or leave. You don't have many other options.

Welcome to the club, my friend. Sorry you're here.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Go to New Orleans. Should anyone ask why your mrs. isn't there, tell them the truth - she's at a piano recital with your daughter. End of story.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

All the talk of infidelity is unsubstantiated at this point so to assume that and accuse or question her on that would not be a good move, in fact would be damaging and against your interests whether true or not, for now anyways.

However what is CLEAR is as I said before - she has lost her attraction to you. This does not mean she is attracted to someone else necessarily. Although that risk gets bigger and bigger the longer she goes not attracted to YOU. But a woman who is attracted to her man does not put him as a lower priority, does not ignore him, does not take him for granted, etc. She wants his attention, she wants to please him, she wants to enjoy her life with him as much as possible. 

Note that there is a difference between "love" and "attraction". Your wife can still love you very much but not be attracted to you. Do you feel like your wife loves you as she would a brother, or one of the kids? That's what I'm talking about. She loves you with all her heart - but the affection and intimacy, the passion and desire, is sorely lacking. To the point that you are hurting.

This is EXACTLY why she does not seem to understand or know what to do or even want to do anything differently. She loves you, therefore in her conscious mind nothing should be wrong, what is the problem? She likely doesn't consciously realize she isn't very attracted to you anymore, and it hurts her to think that way so she will deny it - even to herself. It's a FEELING, and she can't "make" herself feel it. And you are making it worse by trying to "hold her feet to the fire" and her feeling bad about herself. Pressuring her, or guilting her into feeling something that just isn't there. That is not going to make her feel more attracted to you, in fact it is going to do the opposite and turn her off, making the situation worse over time.

And do not tell her "oh, I figured it out, you're just not that attracted to me anymore, let's figure out how to fix that". A man who is attractive does not need his woman's help to be attractive...he just IS. That's what turns her on - the man just IS, it's in the way he operates and behaves, and he knows what to do, how to handle her, how to ignite the passion within her, she just FEELS it naturally. Talking about it kills it. Telling her he doesn't know what to do (i.e. let's go to counseling or I'm unhappy and feel like part of the furniture YOU need to change or you need to tell me what to do to make you happy) kills it. 

Sure you are communicating with your wife - but you are communicating a lack of masculinity. That's where the whole "communication" thing falls apart in a marriage. Communicating the wrong way and the wrong things will end it even faster than not doing anything, which is likely why marriage counselors fail so often. Your counselor obviously doesn't get it, no matter how sure s/he seems or what his/her credentials are, because clearly nothing has really improved has it. It's not because your wife isn't "trying". It's because she CAN'T make you attractive to her again - only YOU can do that. 

Think of it this way - pick a kind of ice cream that you find repulsive. Now talk to someone who LOVES that flavor. Ask them to convince you how much YOU should love it. And you agree to try. But it's still disgusting. Yet they keep telling you how good it is, what is wrong with you? You aren't trying hard enough. Just do this, do that. Feel it yet? No? Sigh. Something is wrong with you. Etc. Versus imagine you just started kind of craving that ice cream, on your own without help, you didn't like it before but something unexplainable about it just seems tempting now, maybe you're taste buds have changed, you try it and realize you actually do like it, in fact you love it and can't get enough of it now! For seemingly no reason, it just happened. Terrible analogy but seriously, you can't logic and reason and browbeat and guilt and pressure and convince someone to feel a feeling they don't have. Not sincerely, not sustainably. Wouldn't you want your wife to just FEEL attracted to you again anyways, without having to CONVINCE her or "make" her?

And what woman wants to explain specifically to her man how to be romanced and seduced? That alone kills the romance by definition! And yes your wife wants romance, don't even question that no matter what she may say. Many (my wife included) don't even consciously KNOW exactly what seduces them and therefore couldn't explain it even if they wanted to! It changes seemingly daily anyways. Sometimes they think they know, but we've all had a woman tell us she likes "xyz" and so then when we do "xyz" she doesn't like it anymore or it doesn't "work". Us guys are just wired to want that roadmap, that blueprint, and we expect our wives to help us with it. But they CAN'T. Because they are wired to be attracted to a guy who seems to just KNOW them. And the more we push, the more they feel bad that they are letting us down, or that you simply aren't the kind of guy who knows how to light her fire...but they will usually try, and when they realize it's not working they come up with any host of excuses, one of the most popular being "I don't have the drive" or "too tired/stressed". As I say even to the point of believing the excuses themselves, they so much WANT to help us but simply can't, so they blame themselves. 

But guarantee if the right guy with the right attitude started paying attention to her in the right ways, she'd suddenly feel something that created the "drive" seemingly out of nowhere, and it would actually alleviate the "stress" in her life, and would become a top priority...YOU need to become that guy for her again. She can't help you get there. The more you rely on her to help you do that, the more you place yourself in a weak position and the slimmer you're chances become...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bild-a-loco (Jan 22, 2014)

Thanks for the responses, but to put it plainly, at this point, going on the trip to New Orleans isn't that big of a deal for me - it's only an hour-and-a-half from our house anyway, so I'm not obsessed with the idea of going to New Orleans. What I am greatly bothered about is not being able to trust my wife - that's a whole lot bigger issue to me right now than whether or not I go hang out with some friends. Other problem, the thing we were going for is a Victorian themed dinner party and dance (period attire and music) in the Quarter - a bit difficult to do that by yourself and I'm not feeling much like dancing with other ladies right now. 

Looks like we're going to be iced in down here (literally) for the next couple of days, so we'll probably get to do a lot more talking! Thanks everybody.


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## bild-a-loco (Jan 22, 2014)

Just a quick update - arrgghhh! 

I've worked the last two days down here through the big ice storm you might've seen on the news and have officially frozen my a** off. Wife's been home Tuesday and Wednesday because her office was closed, daughter's been home because schools were closed. We had talked a lot Monday night about some websites for her to look at for advice and she said she would check them out - she did, because I saw her do it for about an hour Tuesday night after I got done checking some Ebay auctions, then she turned off the computer and went back to looking at a cook book.

Talking in bed last night, she wanted to fool around, and I just couldn't do it - I'm so flustered with her I don't have any sex drive right now. We talked instead. I asked her if she'd studied up anymore and had any ideas about what to do about "us." She said she'd looked at some of the websites Tuesday and got some ideas. I asked her what she'd done about it, and she said, "well, I cleaned up the kitchen and the dining room so you wouldn't have to." Our daughter's 17th birthday party is Saturday, and she honestly looked at me and said proudly that she'd cleaned up the areas for the party so I wouldn't have to bother with it after working in sub-freezing temps for two days while she's been sitting at home iced in anyway - and this was somehow supposed to make me feel better and show me that she was thinking about me. I'm not reading this into what she said - she actually said that! 

I'm just about at wit's end. Thank god at least the ice is melting today and I'm back to working inside, but my sex drive is pretty well gone and once again, I'm astounded by what (in her mind) she considers doing something "nice for me." Cleaning up two rooms of the house for my daughter's birthday party is somehow doing an act of caring and kindness towards me? I don't know even how to respond to much of this anymore.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

bild-a-loco said:


> Thanks for the responses, but to put it plainly, at this point, going on the trip to New Orleans isn't that big of a deal for me - it's only an hour-and-a-half from our house anyway, so I'm not obsessed with the idea of going to New Orleans. What I am greatly bothered about is not being able to trust my wife - that's a whole lot bigger issue to me right now than whether or not I go hang out with some friends. Other problem, the thing we were going for is a Victorian themed dinner party and dance (period attire and music) in the Quarter - a bit difficult to do that by yourself and I'm not feeling much like dancing with other ladies right now.


The point of going is not because it is the end all be all of trips. It is to show that you are not going to dance to her tune. You planned a trip, she knew it, and she sabotaged it. Don't let that happen.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

bild-a-loco said:


> Just a quick update - arrgghhh!
> 
> I've worked the last two days down here through the big ice storm you might've seen on the news and have officially frozen my a** off. Wife's been home Tuesday and Wednesday because her office was closed, daughter's been home because schools were closed. We had talked a lot Monday night about some websites for her to look at for advice and she said she would check them out - she did, because I saw her do it for about an hour Tuesday night after I got done checking some Ebay auctions, then she turned off the computer and went back to looking at a cook book.
> 
> ...


You should have responded: "I am glad you got that done for our daughter's party, but I was asking about what you did for us?"


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

I see a loss of her respect in you. Your job is to figure out why. I assume from your posts that while she converted or became much more religious, you did not. How much of that is driving it? Has she lost respect because you are not respecting her views, or respecting these religious teachings? Perhaps she feels you led her astray early on? 

I don't see any frank, non-judgmental discussions on this. Figure out how to have one (or likely many), were you ask questions and then listen. Any interruption is to clarify what she said, not to defend you.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Feeling Taken For Granted and Hopeless
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...elp-feeling-quite-taken-granted-hopeless.html

I agree with justtryin. It is likely that your wife is responding to something you are or are not doing. However, it may have nothing to do with whether or not she is attracted to you anymore.
The way you have described your wife’s behavior might be indicative of her feeling shut down. She is literally spacing out and shutting you out. You will have to get to the bottom of what is wrong. Why is your wife shutting down on you? Usually when a woman shuts down on her husband it has something to do with how the husband is treating her.
It is admirable that you want to save your marriage and work things out with your wife, but the only person you can change is yourself. What could you be doing that is causing this kind of response in your wife? There are two indications you gave us.
When she tried to do something nice for you, by preparing for the party, your response was confusion as to what was good about that. When your wife came on to you, you turned her down. As a woman, these things are hurtful to her. You did not acknowledge her effort, you were just confused and maybe upset with her.
She already is concerned about you becoming angry with her. She made a wrong choice and blew off the New Orleans trip. She told your daughter not to bring it up to you, because she did not want you getting angry with your daughter. She waited for a better time when she could tell you herself. Your wife is afraid of your anger. No woman should be afraid of her husband’s anger.
You did say that her view of sex changed when she “got religion.” I don’t know what religion she got, but if she is a Christian that should not negatively impact your sex life at all unless you are asking her to do something that hurts or is bad for your bodies, which I doesn’t sound like you are asking of her.
What did the counselor tell your wife to do that she didn’t do? In order to understand what the real problem is, we need more information. My guess is that your wife is struggling with some part of your marriage and is shutting down over it. She probably talked to you about it, but you did not think her feelings were valid and got angry with her or shut her down in some way. If you didn’t consider it to be valid or of importance, you may not even remember it.
The way to resolve most marriage problems when a man is the one going first is to love your wife. Really listen to her and love her. When she does something you think is dumb, like being all proud of cleaning something, give her a hug and tell her thank you for thinking of you.
When you want something from her, like a trip to New Orleans, and she blows it off, tell her that you understand she plunked down $200 for the competition, but you want her to forget about it and go to New Orleans with you.
You need to find out what is really bothering your wife. She did not put on a show when she told you she loves you and wants you to stay. She needs to be able to talk to you and know that you will listen with concern and will not shut her down or get angry with her, but will love her through whatever it is.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

I agree with justtryin. It is likely that your wife is responding to something you are or are not doing. However, it may have nothing to do with whether or not she is attracted to you anymore.
The way you have described your wife’s behavior might be indicative of her feeling shut down. She is literally spacing out and shutting you out. You will have to get to the bottom of what is wrong. Why is your wife shutting down on you? Usually when a woman shuts down on her husband it has something to do with how the husband is treating her.
It is admirable that you want to save your marriage and work things out with your wife, but the only person you can change is yourself. What could you be doing that is causing this kind of response in your wife? There are two indications you gave us.
When she tried to do something nice for you, by preparing for the party, your response was confusion as to what was good about that. When your wife came on to you, you turned her down. As a woman, these things are hurtful to her. You did not acknowledge her effort, you were just confused and maybe upset with her.
She already is concerned about you becoming angry with her. She made a wrong choice and blew off the New Orleans trip. She told your daughter not to bring it up to you, because she did not want you getting angry with your daughter. She waited for a better time when she could tell you herself. Your wife is afraid of your anger. No woman should be afraid of her husband’s anger.
You did say that her view of sex changed when she “got religion.” I don’t know what religion she got, but if she is a Christian that should not negatively impact your sex life at all unless you are asking her to do something that hurts or is bad for your bodies, which I doesn’t sound like you are asking of her.
What did the counselor tell your wife to do that she didn’t do? In order to understand what the real problem is, we need more information. My guess is that your wife is struggling with some part of your marriage and is shutting down over it. She probably talked to you about it, but you did not think her feelings were valid and got angry with her or shut her down in some way. If you didn’t consider it to be valid or of importance, you may not even remember it.
The way to resolve most marriage problems when a man is the one going first is to love your wife. Really listen to her and love her. When she does something you think is dumb, like being all proud of cleaning something, give her a hug and tell her thank you for thinking of you.
When you want something from her, like a trip to New Orleans, and she blows it off, tell her that you understand she plunked down $200 for the competition, but you want her to forget about it and go to New Orleans with you.
You need to find out what is really bothering your wife. She did not put on a show when she told you she loves you and wants you to stay. She needs to be able to talk to you and know that you will listen with concern and will not shut her down or get angry with her, but will love her through whatever it is.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

My first thread here was about feeling unappreciated and being taken for granted by my wife. Sex between us sucked because she just gave me duty sex to shut me up. It was like having sex with a lifeless blow up doll.

Turns out, she had an affair during this time.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Bild, I think Justtryin is exactly on track. Your wife "cleaned so you wouldn't have to?" I'm with you... if she was home for two days and you were out working, she *should* be contributing! 

I'd stop talking so much about this stuff, though. All you are doing is giving her a chance to study how to make herself sound like she's making effort. Instead, I would encourage you to make it really simple: Tell her you don't think she's bringing much to the marriage table. Do NOT talk about it, though! When she tries, say, "That's what I believe and these discussions have not changed my opinion. Actions might, but I doubt it." 

Then start taking steps AS IF you are preparing for living single again, whether you plan to divorce or not. Step up your appearance, stop worrying about others' opinions so much, set aside some money in a separate account and do not justify your actions. In your case, "I want to" is a legitimate reason. 

When she isn't listening, just do things your way. When she complains, tell her that you believe her lack of acknowledgment is a sign that she's not interested in having any input. 

In this way, allow her behavior to set the norms for how your home operates, but do it in a way that favors YOUR benefit instead of hers. She'll step up to the plate when she discovers that she pays a price for her neglect... you aren't available when she wants, she doesn't have money when she wants, and she can no longer have as strong an effect on you. 

Change you if you want the relationship to change.


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## john1068 (Nov 12, 2013)

bild-a-loco said:


> I did over the weekend emphasis that something else we were planning to do in March I would be doing by myself - that way there would be no way it could be messed up - and she did look very surprised at that, so, at least I am getting her attention. :scratchhead:


This position is a very GOOD position to take. This is what is meant when in your other thread somebody said you should be more Alpha. Smoking cigs, driving 4x4's, etc is not being alpha. Standing up for yourself, taking a position and sticking to it IS alpha, and it will get her attention. 

I didn't notice anybody else comment for you to read Married Man Sex Life Primer or No More Mr. Nice Guy...two VERY important reads for a man in your situation. I was where you were in October 2013. I'm not there any longer, and my DW and I are well on our way to recovery.


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