# separation is killing me, help!



## voivod

ok, i'm gonna lay my whole story out in this first post, indulge me please. i had a potentially deadly stroke on 1/25/08. i am now at home, on my way to (neurologist and physiologist say) near full recovery. I see my wife as a guardian angel, let me explain: she says God told her to stay home from work the day of my stroke. she found me in bed, paralyzed completely on my left side. she did the assessment on me (she works in the medical industry) called 911, got the top neurosurgeon in the region (not my opinion, wife works at a docs office, this guy come highly recommended) on standby in case they needed to crack my head open to stop the bleeding (stroke was a massive cva rather than the more common eschemic). i was in a coma for 7 days, and the first 3 days & nights i was in the hospital my bp was wildly out of control (210/115 was a not an uncommon reading during this time) doc said 72 hours, if i survive that long and it doesn't come down, he's going in. anyway, docs notice that when wife is with me, bp goes down. she was staying at the hosp this whole time, sleeping in a chair next to my bed at night. she would hold my hand, bp would go down. this confounded docs, but she got full credit when bp returned to a semi-normal reading of 150/90 by day three. so here i am today, this is the "love of my life" and if ya don't understand that, wow.

we met at work in 1988 while i was still married to my first wife, co-habitated for 3+ years, married in 1991 have 4 children girl 16, girl 11, girl 9, boy 5. no adultery during this marriage, BUT heavy alcohol use (me) and issues that arose from that (money, anger with NO physical abuse, probably integrity issues as she sees it), cuz i did a high profile LOCAL (i'm NOT that guy, but the show was similar) radio show in a medium market where i have lived most of my life. people know me, and i wonder if she feels my cavalier on air persona was a reflection on her. lots of things that have left what i have learned is called "wreckage from the past" that has created some resentment.

Sooo...i'm home from the hospital in april. it gets hot here, and one of my rehab goals was to push the mower around, mow my own lawn, guess what...i did, and can! so i come in from a typically hot late spring afternoon here (100 degrees) for a cool drink. i open the fridge and "voila!" sitting there was an ice cold coors lite. i popped it and drank it, violating a post stroke promise i'd made to her: no more alcohol, as that it a cause of the conditions that led to the stroke.

she comes home and asks "where's the beer that was in the fridge?" i tell her i had it and holy [censored] she goes into a rage. scared my younger two daughters, tears and flinging her wedding ring at me and saying "how can you do this to me after i saved your life?? is that all the more you care???" and said "that's it. i'm leaving." 

she rat-holed money awat for the next 3 weeks and moved out on june 20th. in those 3 weeks i was as perfect a gentleman as i could be, to the point where she called my sister in AZ and told her she "was having 2nd thoughts" about separating. now i felt the move out coming (she's very strong willed) and prayed "please God let Beth see that i am trying to be a better man" began attending aa (sober now for 77 days) and seeing a counselor for the other issue and i'll be a sunuvagun this guy is anti co-dependency. see's it as destructive and feels it has infiltrated al-anon (comment if any of you have sensed that). wife has been at both counseling sessions that her presence has been requested. I WANT THIS WOMAN BACK!!! i love her so much, my kids and me need a complete family inluding me, her, and our precious 4 babies!!!

here's what's going on right now, wife continues to keep me close. in fact we're spending more time together now than when we lived together (part of which can be attributed to the fact that i haven't worked since the stroke. anyway, i've been replaying in my mind a few hard-core hurtful comment she's shot at me during the separation (your love was like a cage, you were always so insecure, i had to justify buying clothes while you were spending our money on booze..) but here's the thing: lemme give you an example of a day right now. she get's a dvd movie, we go swimming, she cooks dinner and we hang out till 10pm or so when the kids go to bed and i go "home" (hard to call it home when she's not there) last saturday's agenda: she invited me to attend a fund raising showing of wizard of oz at a downtown theater, then she went to her mom's house to pick some sweet corn. then she got back to the apartment, she called me all cheery and invited me to pick up a couple of things at the store, pick up napoleon dynamite at hastings and come over & have dinner and watch movie.

all this from a woman who doesn't love me ??? can't live with me??? don't misunderstand me, i'm reading smalley's book "how to win back your wife" and i'm following all his suggestions. i KNOW i've made mistakes. i AM honoring my wife now, big time.
i'm doing aa, sober for several weeks, seeing a counselor. etc.

i know that's a long story, sorry, i just wanted you guys to know there's a history here. my question is: is there anything else i could be doing for my marriage? my wife? our children? i want us back together soo baaad.


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## swedish

voivod said:


> all this from a woman who doesn't love me ??? can't live with me???


I think she doesn't love the you that was drinking to the point of almost dying and breaking your promise to stop. That's the guy she can't live with. I think #1 is staying sober. 

Everything else you are doing is great, you just need to give it time. She needs to see the changes will stand the test of time...to her, it went out the window when you grabbed that beer. Stay strong.


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## justean

breaking the promise was the straw that broke the camels back.
i have had 13 yrs of my hubby drinking issues. it has been the bain of my life and it always hurts.
supported him through this and that.
and what do you get in the end- broken promises.
his drinking helped with his one night stand in april 08.
but as a wife i have put up with to many of his demons.
i dont have any of them , no smoke, no alcohol, no drugs, no infidelty.
the only thing my hubby not done was the drugs.
but i am at a point where i accept i love my hubby, but i dont have to put up with his demons.
your wife simply has just had enough.
but she does love you.
im a theatre nurse and i have seen what you have been through many times. its devastating. 
my hubbys mate also had a stroke from drinking and he ws on 27 at the time.
he made a full recovery. but he lost it all , time and time again.
you simply have to change .
your wife still seems devoted to you.
stay away from the pub and ppl that lead you astray.
take and do things with your wife, that you have never done b 4 with her.


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## voivod

so i'm doing things right, give it time? i swear i feel like i'm coming apart. it feels like "hang in there" is the best tactic, and geez i am, but i stare at pictures from our wedding day and my heart is just breaking. everything we do together, we are getting along so well. why do you suppose she can't see fit to be together and work on things? i know you don't know me, but i am never going to have another alcoholic beverage again. i have the ability to do that. oh God i wish she could know this.


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## voivod

justean,
you sound like you know from where i come. you say: *but she still loves you* what indicates that to you? that is the one bit of hope i'm holding onto.


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## justean

yeh i know where your wife is coming from. but where you come from, is where my hubby has been.
yeh i do think she stil loves u.
she does undertstand you.
shes just really p"""ssed with you and needs a cooling down period.
she probably just cant live with you/ without you situation.
i think you both need that time regarding reconnecting with eachother.
im gonna be honest here, i dont mind n e thing in moderation.
i dont even mind hubby drinking as long as we dont have adverse reactions. i.e kids. family life
at some point you might want to broach the topic of alcohol. really ask her what is acceptable for her.
would she mind if you had the odd one. but do you think youd go of the wagon again. or maybe you wood av to give it up total.
only you and your wife know these issues, because its so personal.
communication is the key here. 
obviously you dont rush things.
but when you go out with her.
contact does not have to be touch at this point. it could be just looking at her, take a moment to look into her eyes.
you wil see if they still sparkle.
if she did not want to be around you, i guarantee you, she wouldnt.
you are already having an impact, because she wants to do things with you and for you.
dont give up just yet.
buy her some flowers for when u next c her.


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## voivod

*take a moment to look into her eyes.
you wil see if they still sparkle.
*

i did!!! i saw a sparkle!!! last suturday she was snapping a picture off with me & my sister on her cell phone, she paused to look at the pic, there was a sparkle in her eye! my sis saw it too, independent of me.

and:*buy her some flowers for when u next c her*

i did last night. she has been having a gall bladder issue, so she had me pick up prescription for her. so i bought her a card with a really cute get well in it, stuffed a hundred dollars in it and sais she should use the money to buy a new outfit or something and had my cute little youngest daughter give her the get well card and a bouquet of flowers!!


***btw, the $100 was not a bribe or anything. she mentioned that she had an issue with me with regard to booze consumption. she said once that "you spent all our money on booze and questioned me for buying clothes." i wanted her to know i took that to heart and remembered her hurt.


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## swedish

I wanted to add my thoughts on the alcohol use. I know that once your body gets to a point where you are hospitalized and in a coma as a result of alcohol (indirectly or not) you can recover and lead a long life (the liver is an amazing organ that way). 

My mother was there. She stopped drinking and found herself fidgety and asked me to teach her to needlepoint. Her mother taught me and once my mother got hooked, she did beautiful work and kept her focus off of having a drink. She stayed sober for 2 years. 

At some point, the stress of life got the best of her and she started drinking again. The doctors told her that if she did, her body would not be able to handle it. She used to drink wine, but decided to try vodka as she could hide it and figured she wouldn't drink as much. Within a few months, my dad found her non-responsive and she was taken by ambulance to a hospital near where I worked. I got there before she did and when they brought her in I had enough time to hold her hand (she squeezed it) and told her I was there and that I loved her. She went into a coma and one by one her organs shut down. She died the next day with her husband, five children and best friend with her. She was 56.

Her daughter was 7 months pregnant with her grandson that she would never meet. She made a needlepoint baby blanket for him that her husband wrapped and brought to the hospital when the baby was born, holding back tears as he handed it to his daughter. That daughter was me.

She was a wonderful person, mother and friend and I still miss her. Your wife is doing what she needs to do to protect herself and the kids so they never have to go through that. She is hoping that while she is gone you will take serious inventory of yourself and make permanent changes. So at all costs, stay sober, keep doing all that you are and make the most of this second chance at life as I believe it will lead to a second chance with her. I seriously doubt a third chance is possible.


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## swedish

voivod said:


> ***btw, the $100 was not a bribe or anything. she mentioned that she had an issue with me with regard to booze consumption. she said once that "you spent all our money on booze and questioned me for buying clothes." i wanted her to know i took that to heart and remembered her hurt.


On a lighter note, this is awesome...the best response my husband gets from me is when he remembers something that I said some time ago and then acts on it...very cool.


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## voivod

swedish,
thank you for taking an interest. what do you think about these other "save your relationship" websites that would tell me i'm going too far in trying to win my wifes love back. they suggest counter intuitive things, like date other people, don't call, dont go outa the way to fulfil emotion need of separated partner, etc.?


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## swedish

That sounds like a plan for those whose spouses are having an affair. I don't think that would be a good idea in your case because your wife seems to want you in her life, she's just guarding herself in case you revert back.


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## voivod

revert back??? again, i'm not a patient person. i'm not reverting back! how other than time can i show her that. if i asked her today, i'd bet she'd say "i don't want you back." i don't wanna hear that. is time the only thing?

btw-did i mention that she asked me to be an assistant coach for her on our son's fall sports team? pretty encouraging, right?


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## voivod

and one more thing. time is taking it's toll on me emotionally. everything i read says that we are less than attractive to our spouse if we are not happy. i have a hard time being happy when i'm separated from her. i've heard join a support group. why? to be around people who are miserable too. or stay busy to keep from falling into a funk. i'm in a funk and just feel horribly sad right now. in fact when we aren't together, i feel horribly sad. i don't feel like doing anything without my wife. help with suggestions please.


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## voivod

just got home from a wonderful dinner at ihop!!! i know, not particularly romantic. it's one of her favorites. lotsa smiles and good conversation. i love that woman!


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## justean

i think if you saw the signs i told u. well i think your on your way.
i know the money was not a bribe.
it was a new way of thinking. 
you have to change.
i think your doing fine.
if she has been like this for a while with you, i think you should take a little step forward.
your sadness is now starting to affect you and it could push you further down.
tell her what you have said on here. 
sit down on your own with her and tell her that your sad. 
she wil ask you why, be simple. 
because i miss you and i still love you and i dont want to lose you.
tell her you undertstand she needs time, but ask her if you can court her again.
tell her you would like to touch her again.


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## swedish

voivod said:


> and one more thing. time is taking it's toll on me emotionally. everything i read says that we are less than attractive to our spouse if we are not hapy. i have a hard time being happy when i'm separated from her. i've heard join a support group. why? to be around people who are miserable too. or stay busy to keep from falling into a funk. i'm in a funk and just feel horribly sad right now. in fact when we aren't together, i feel horribly sad. i don't feel like doing anything without my wife. help with suggestions please.


IMHO, time is the only way. I don't know what your rehab plan is but I'm sure at this point anything you do physically should be under your doctor's guidance, but when I was feeling as you are now the one thing that helped me the most was going to the gym or going for a run. A workout releases chemicals in the brain that actually help you feel better. The other benefit is working on yourself and putting your focus elsewhere...and your wife is likely to notice the results...especially in your case I would think that would be a great sign for her to see--you focused on your body and health.

If that is not possible for you I would look into other things that interest you. One thing I've read is that most men tend to be able to focus really well on something once they get into it. My husband started dabbling in woodworking and before long our garage started looking like Norm Abrahm's workshop & one day I went into the garage and asked him something 'Later we're invited to blah, blah, blah...what do you think?' His response was 'I think I need to cut this piece at 5 and 3/8' It made me smile because I had just read a book on understanding men that said when a man is focused on something, it's not a good time for conversation. Anyway, I'm digressing now but my point was if you are like this, finding something that interests you that you can put your focus into might help.

When you are spending time with your wife, it sounds as if you talk/laugh and I think she's definitely seeing how you are handling yourself now and looking for positive changes so keep that up. I've never tried the support group thing but maybe it's a way to share the sad feelings etc with someone not connected to the situation because if you lean on your wife for that it may make her feel guilty or that you are too needy and push her further away. I dunno, just my thoughts.

If you do start getting into something...say the kids' rooms at your house need painting and you do that...it will give you something to talk about with her where she sees you stepping up on your own.


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## voivod

she just txted me and asked me to pick her up some friut for lunch. she still loves me. i'm gonna relax and take my time. be patient, right?


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## swedish

I know, easier said then done, but judging about how she's still wanting to see you and spend time with you, it will be worth the wait.


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## voivod

swedish,
i know it will be worth the wait, you are right. i am just so lonely without her. i wish you knew. she is beautiful inside and out. thank you for not cramming the codependency stuff down my throat. i consider us "interdependent." 

a friend of mine who has been involved it aa and thru lots of counseling says to "prepare yourself for the worst" in situations like this. Isn't that just stinkin' thinkin' at this point? won't that be wasted effort doing nothing but making me miserable, thereby less attractive to my wife, or anyone else?

and..last question. i've been seeing what i consider a pretty good counselor once a week.see if you can undrstand this: he has suggested her only attend every 4 or 5 weeks. when it's her turn, i alway freak out inside, afraid she's gonna say something i can't handle and blow up the work i've been doing, and believe me, i've been working. in fact it's feeling less and less like work.

what do you think of the 4-5 week interval?

thanks again.


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## voivod

holy smokes the be patient and don't push things camp wins again!
my wife graciously joins me and the kids on a drive up to our old summer getaway. on the way up, among other things she says, "it's nice to be around you when your not so uptight" (result of, i believe, having fun, laughing, joking, being my old self). then out of the blue, my son says "mom can we go camping today?" wife says: "no son, not today, but maybe dad can reserve our old spot for next weekend." so i reconfirm with her, you sure next weekend is ok? yes she says. consider campsight number 16 reserved at french creek! thank you everyone for your insight!!!


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## justean

just have fun again, and enjoy your family.


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## voivod

justean,

enjoy my family!!! you're sounding more and more like...well..here, you decide:

she invited me to our nephew's (her sister's son) 5 yr birthday. coulda been awkward with brother in laws and mother in laws and father in laws there. but she made it very comfortable, the invited me in when we got back to her place to watch a movie. yay! thanks for your advice and calm in the storm approach!


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## justean

sounding like what ---- you got me worrying now ????
i just think i can help.
your both getting comfortable again, maybe take the next step forward with her?
ahhh your learning about your wife.
now its time to move forward together .


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## voivod

sounding like a nostradamus. you predict things, they come true! no worries, it's all good.


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## voivod

it's tough, because the closer i feel things are getting, the more results i wanna see. i touch her, but not invasively. rub on the back, touch her leg mmm, or her hand. she offered to put our bills together this morning. seems a good sign huh?


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## justean

i have an old soul.

i know that your going the right way about all this. 
when you see it , maybe your situation changing a little, either do the forward move or the backward move, your instincts wil tel u.

back of when u need to back of, move forward when and with her communication, move forward.

i wil send you a private note. you might be weary, thats ok, but just have alook.

oh by the way, speaking to her , how are you getting on.
have u talked about the future, that ud like time together.
what about a hotel.
im pretty sure, she wil know what your on about.


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## voivod

hey old soul! thanks for your help.

the craziest things keep happening. wife saw that i was in trouble financially (disability & health insurance cancelled said yesterday morning that maybe we should combine our resources) she's thinking about us having "our" money? oh, yeah...how about the camping trip? should i initiate any sexual contact? wait for her signal? due to our camping configuration, physical contact will be involved in our sleeping arrangements.


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## draconis

Let her show you that she is interested and meet her 90/10.

draconis


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## justean

have you kissed her yet?

i think you should try and move forward now.

speak to her , ask her if she wil stay the night?

the camping trip is fab. but this is family time, and a time to let that heat between you rise. 
what im saying here is let the sexual tension between you grow from there. the more you do things with eachother, i.e talk, touch. 
well you cant exactly go for a romp with 4 children.
the more you touch her, well thats your intimate time. thats your growing time.


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## voivod

my counselor says he sees the situation as moving forward at "lightning speed" while i am seeing it go soooo sllllowwww. every day that goes by feels like a day lost. justean, i don't feel it is the right thing to do pushing a sexual agenda. do i want sexual contact? yes! but i feel like that would push her away. last night i tried to introduce a situation that would have resulted in one of us sleeping at the others' place, but she was insistant upon her going home to her apt. and falling asleep there. i didn't push it.


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## draconis

voivod said:


> my counselor says he sees the situation as moving forward at "lightning speed" while i am seeing it go soooo sllllowwww. every day that goes by feels like a day lost. justean, i don't feel it is the right thing to do pushing a sexual agenda. do i want sexual contact? yes! but i feel like that would push her away. last night i tried to introduce a situation that would have resulted in one of us sleeping at the others' place, but she was insistant upon her going home to her apt. and falling asleep there. i didn't push it.


Good for ou for not pushing it. That should help your cause. It is moving forward quicker then you think just not at the pace you would want it too.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis,
have you read all of my posts? i'm so sorry it feels like things are going so slow! or not going at all! my counselor seems to think things are going fast and that she still loves me. it's hard to see that from the perspective of living apart. she has shown plenty of indications that she is still interested in a relationship; i just wanna get the old one back. wait...i'm sure the "old one" won't work!!! i want her back, and a new relationship.


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## draconis

Let's face it it always goes slower then we want it to be.

As for reading the posts I read every post by every person on these forums, yours included. Sometimes threads might be forgotten, or mixed up with other people. But I have read all 20 of your posts.

draconis


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## voivod

thank you, and i hope so much that you are correct. this woman means a lot to me.


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## swedish

voivod,

I see 2 things that come through pretty clear in your posts to date:

1) Your wife still loves you and you still love her
2) Your wife, for her own sanity, is keeping her distance until she feels comfortable that your changes (stopping drinking) are permanent.

So although I'm sure it seems incredibly slow to you, she has probably been feeling bad about this for a while and it took a lot for her to leave someone she clearly still loves. She will have another hard decision to make when it comes time to return home and she isn't taking it lightly. I think this is a good sign (sorry i know you hate it) but she is looking at the long-term and is probably afraid of a quick fix and a few months/years down the road you are in the same bad spot again.

I agree on keeping the romance on the back burner for now...My guess is she will respond best to seeing you taking care of yourself/your health right now. Rehab/gym/eating healthy or whatever you can do to work on getting back to 100% and that your health is your #1 priority I think will go far with her in feeling more comfortable about the future of your marriage.


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## voivod

i just found out she referred a friend and co-worker of hers to my counselor, so i see that as a sign that she's seeing it working. why would she refer a friend to a counselor that doesn't work, right?


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## draconis

voivod said:


> i just found out she referred a friend and co-worker of hers to my counselor, so i see that as a sign that she's seeing it working. why would she refer a friend to a counselor that doesn't work, right?


It is a very good sign.

draconis


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## voivod

swedish,
in you recent post to me, you said...

>>>I see 2 things that come through pretty clear in your posts to date:

1) Your wife still loves you and you still love her
2) Your wife, for her own sanity, is keeping her distance until she feels comfortable that your changes (stopping drinking) are permanent.<<<<

i feel she does still love me, (lotsa "honey's" still come out of her mouth when she's talking to me) but that's what makes it so frustrating as far as the drinking issue. i'm flat out NOT drinking, never again. i know i'm only partway thru the 12 steps, but i am never going back to alcohol. if she loves me, wouldn't that be easy to tell. i'm done, and my committment to sobriety is real clear. wouldn't she want to see that in action? as in living together?


btw, i still haven't figured out the quote button, yet. sorry.


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## voivod

crap, wife just came by, said we can't do the camping trip this weekend, due to her work schedule and meetings with sports team we are coaching, plus daughters' soccer tournament. outta the mouth's of babes, my 11 year old says, "it's not because she didn't want to go, things just work against it."

hell with it, i'm gonna schedule a picnic at the campsite sunday.


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## draconis

voivod said:


> crap, wife just came by, said we can't do the camping trip this weekend, due to her work schedule and meetings with sports team we are coaching, plus daughters' soccer tournament. outta the mouth's of babes, my 11 year old says, "it's not because she didn't want to go, things just work against it."
> 
> hell with it, i'm gonna schedule a picnic at the campsite sunday.


Will the wife be there for the picnic?

draconis


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## justean

in answer to my earlier post. then you know your limits, thats a good thing and you know your boundaries.


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## voivod

drac,
wife will be there if she wants, i'm gonna make sure schedule allows for it.

justean,
know my limits, boundaries, yes. thanks


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## draconis

It will be nice for all of you if she makes it. Tell us Monday how it goes.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis,
funny, i saw you saying "please don't post again until monday." i'm gonna make this a nice weekend regardless. she accepted my invite to join me & the kids at an amphitheater showing of a disney movie tomorrowe night. also taking the camping trip in another direction. since she can't stay overnight due to work schedule, i'm gonna make it a picnic. 

some other encouraging things recently, she offered to combine our income and help with some bills of mine. i have made payments for her recently, paid for the kids school registration (trying to assume my responsibility), taking her lunch every day at work when she's been unable to get away, etc.

i still feel awfully empty without her living in the house, but you all, including my counselor, have said things are moving along quickly enough, but not for me. i feel despair almost every day, and i feel lost. she has been my everything, truly a pillar of strength. 

i catch myself looking forward to the few minutes we get to spend together when she's picking the kids up or i'm dropping them off, only to be truly saddened when i or she leaves. 

i find myself asking myself "how could i have drained this woman of all the love that she has? she was so full of love and i must have just been such a drain, and maybe the effort she put forth during my stroke recovery was just too much."

sorry drac, i think i'm using this space as therapy.


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## swedish

voivod said:


> she has been my everything, truly a pillar of strength.
> 
> i find myself asking myself "how could i have drained this woman of all the love that i have? she was so full of love and i must have just been such a drain, and maybe the effort she put forth during my stroke recovery was just too much."


She does sound like a wonderful, supportive person based on what you've said about her. If she is feeling drained, the time you are devoting to helping her now (bringing her lunch, etc.) might be the thing that refuels her, knowing it's a 2-way street.



voivod said:


> sorry drac, i think i'm using this space as therapy.


Aren't we all?!


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## voivod

camping is back on! one night, not two. i'll let you know monday


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## draconis

Wish you the best 

draconis


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## justean

i really hope you all have a lovely time.
best of fun


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## voivod

i received some advice from a vey smart man who said in essence that "if it doesn't hurt your self esteem program, keep seeing her..." on these social get-togethers. well, she's joining me at a community showing of another children's movie tonight. i feel a little twisted about it as, noted earlier, my patience for reconciliation is tested because, the more of these get togethers we do, the closer i feel to getting back together, then when it doesn't happen as quickly as i'd like, i get all bummed out. advice please?


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## swedish

Can you get to a place in your mind where instead of trying to move back in together you look at this as a whole new beginning of your relationship with her? Enjoy your time with her, learn new things about each other and don't assume there's a time frame on living together (just as you wouldn't if you first met) Because she is wanting to spend time with you, you have the opportunity to build a new future together vs. moving too fast to get your old life back. It's unsettling for you now but it will be worth the wait.


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## draconis

The more you see her the more likely she will want to get together with you too. Give it as much time as need be. I know it will feel weird.

draconis


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## voivod

swedish & drac,

you guys are godsends for my attitude!!!
absolutely! what agreat way to look at things! thing is, this woman just saved my life...we're a litle closer than "the beginning of a relationship." what i mean is, i cannot look at her as a new coutship, this woman is so familiar, and so beautiful to me. i hope you understand. but, yes, i will, as of today, work from the mindset of "beginning" although truth be told, from the very beginning of our relationship, i was trying to get "closer" (in all senses; my wife would giggle right about here and say "you're a dog!" in her cute way) so i've gotta remove all sexual leanings from my approach, i'd assume, right?


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## draconis

Getting back to basics....

My wife and I after ten years still date (just the two of us) every week. Most of the time it is going out to eat or the movies. But the basics is where you get the butterfies then people relax instead of keeping with it.

draconis


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## justean

thats where i think you need to sit down and talk with eachother.or u wil keep second guessing with her.
whose self esteem gets the boost then ? hers for the attention your giving her .
whilst yours goes down - because you keep being good , but your stil in the same place. there is only so much you can take.
when my hubby and i were split - he said to me , "i cant take this rejection n e more, i want to be with you and i love you - what i did was wrong " his one night stand in april.
even though he wanted an instant - let the past go.
he gave me the ultimatum.
to be honest it came as a shock - i did not want to really lose him.
we took our time, when he moved back in - we actually stayed separate for a short while - in the same house. alternated bed to settee.
but we became friends again. our relationship had changed. we stopped arguing - i try not to bring the event up - you have to , in order to move on. 
but honestly my hubby said "if i move out, im not coming back ". he does mean it. 
it gave me the kick i probably needed to make a decision.


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## voivod

justean,
i don't believe i'm in a position to give an ultimatum. i think my wife truly is protecting herself AND our children by keeping me at a distance. she has mentioned more than once "what if you did something stupid like that and the kids were home, or came home and found you like i did?"

well, i know that's not going to happen due to my actions, but she doesn't. plus (pardon me if i'm incorrect) she's showing me that she is dead serious about this. 

so, i think i'm gonna stay the course and (if you guys will still have me) continue giving updats and begging for advice. things seem to be going ok that way. camping tomorrow, movie tonight. also, she referred to me as "husband" in conversation today at kids soccer game. i know, i know, i AM her husband! but words mean a lot to her, her choice of words was deliberate. also, she feined some jealousy when referring to a female former co-worker. it was cute, one of those "maybe i'll drive by there and give her a piece of my mind" things.

also. justean,

for you..last night, when she was putting her car in her garage as we were calling it a night, i complimented her on a project she'd been working on for some time, and she gave me that sparkle-eyed look you described earlier. WOW!!! felt good.


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## draconis

We would love to continue to have updates. It is nice when you see something come together and people make it thanks to the forums.

draconis


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## voivod

another good day/night. we went up to the mountains yesterday. already knew ahead of time we were going to skip camping (my son's kindergarten registration is monday) but i promised myself we were gonna have fun regardless. so we went up, checked out a local farmers/flea market, and went swimming in the lake.

then we visited a historic cemetary (sounds morbid, i know. my wife is a huge history buff) visited a few locally significant gravesites, she opened up again about my near-death event (she's talked to me more about it the past two days than at anytime since it happened) so i took the lead and said "you don't have to worry. i plan to live a normal life-span. i'm not having another stroke (kinda funny cause our family doc said i'm not allowed to have another one. instance of repeat of the type of event i had, cva,is very low) plus i'm taking care of myself. down 75 pounds, no alcohol, reduced stress.

after the cemetary, we headed home, i asked her to go see a movie with me, when we got back to town, found out nothing was really playing til way late, so she popped in "it's a mad, mad, mad, mad world" (one of my favorites) she changed into a black nightgown that i bought a couple years ago, and we curled up on the couch & love seat and watched the movie. it was kinda cute too, she asked me to pick up some movie munchies (cantaloupe and popcorn!) and on my way out the door, i swear she said "baby, you need some money?" i haven't heard "baby" out of her mouth for awhile, so i was shocked, didn't say "huh" to make her repeat it, just went with it and said "no thanks honey." she gave a little smile i think as i left to go to the store.

i think things are coming together. i sure hope so. counselor appointment tomorrow, i'll be asking him too. he asked me to invite beth along this week. i'm a little afraid to as things are going so well.


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## justean

i hope you dont mind me keeping an eye over what youve been up to. its nice to hear your update.
your doing all the right things. you when things are too much/not to much and your aspect of how to judge the situation has vastly improved from the person i first emailed.
boy look at you now. your winning.


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## voivod

justean,
thank you, and of course keep an eye on. if you can ever offer up some advice, my sanity depends on it!

i 'love when you say i'm winning. it sure is going slow. if patience came in a pill, i'd have a prescription for em.

i'm still scared of losing her. but it seems like she's giving me plenty of opportunity, huh?


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## voivod

god, i need help getting thru the days. it seems like this is taking so long. we are planning a yard sale right now for labor day weekend. feels like some wierd finality, as we are selling some of our stuff. nothing particularly sentimental, but i am a sentimental guy. i want this crappy separation over. i'm not drinking, have been a perfect gentleman, served and honored her for these almost eight weeks, i feel i deserve some concession. i'm wrong, aren't i?


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## swedish

voivod said:


> god, i need help getting thru the days. it seems like this is taking so long. we are planning a yard sale right now for labor day weekend. feels like some wierd finality, as we are selling some of our stuff. nothing particularly sentimental, but i am a sentimental guy. i want this crappy separation over. i'm not drinking, have been a perfect gentleman, served and honored her for these almost eight weeks, i feel i deserve some concession. i'm wrong, aren't i?


hmmmm, let's do the math:

stroke/coma related to alcohol + wife by your side and scared out of her mind she would lose you + post-stroke no more alcohol promise to wife + 1 coors lite = almost 8 weeks separation

just my humble opinion, but I don't think you're there yet...think of each day you add to your end of the scale as increasing your commitment to her, your children and your future. It will balance at some point...the when is still unknown.


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## voivod

i know, the anxiety this creates is almost too much. if i just had my family back, this would be so much easier. and i understand how difficult the journey to this point was for beth. i just wish she'd understand i'm finished being a bad person. she sees it every day!


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## voivod

sorry. this is an emtional day. we're cleaning out the garage preparing for a yard sale. i'm stumbling upon a lotta memories today. beth says we gotta sell the house. she thinks it has bad karma. way to many bad things have happened to us since living here.


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## swedish

voivod said:


> i know, the anxiety this creates is almost too much. if i just had my family back, this would be so much easier. and i understand how difficult the journey to this point was for beth. i just wish she'd understand i'm finished being a bad person. she sees it every day!


I just had a thought regarding what you said about her difficult journey and in a previous post about her saying she felt she was living in a cage needing permission to buy clothes while you spent money on booze...when you are financially back on your feet what about putting a little $ away that would represent $ you would have normally spent on booze and when it gets to $100 buy her a gift certificate for the mall, etc. and then start the kitty over so it goes on and on. Just a little payback to show her you hear her and you want to make up those years.


voivod said:


> sorry. this is an emtional day. we're cleaning out the garage preparing for a yard sale. i'm stumbling upon a lotta memories today. beth says we gotta sell the house. she thinks it has bad karma. way to many bad things have happened to us since living here.


This is also something that still connects you and that your kids find comfort in. If getting another place means all of you under one roof, YES! Otherwise it may make a future reconciliation harder if you both have apartment leases and would not all fit in one place or the other.


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## voivod

i'm looking at a place where we could all fit, affordable and spacious. i hope that, when the day comes, she'll be comfortable.


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## voivod

so i drove by the prospective new house and beth picks out the smaller place. says something like "when the kids stay here, they can sleep in this bedroom." not a mention of "when we all live together." it feels like i'm building my own gallows.


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## draconis

You have to understand that trust is a hard thing to gain back. Break trust once and you have to prove yourself a thousand times. That is quite a bit of weight. Don't look at everything as doom and gloom, It is okay to be prepared for the worst but plan for the best.

draconis


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## voivod

haha, that's my problem...i'm not prepared for the worst. i can't exist in that fatalistic place and conduct myself as up and joyful and happy with the "prepared for the worst" mindset going on. i've heard that before, but i don't know how people live in that place.
another great night on this roller coaster ride. rented another movie tonight, very comfortable. i told my 11 year old that tonight was as good as i've felt about us in quite a while. she agreed. i love that family!

i took swedishes advice and have started a little account for money to be deposited in that i used to spend on drinks, now it's beth's clothes account. she told me one of her frustrations was that i used to "spend all our money on booze & strippers and question any time she spent on clothes." alcohol is an evil mistress.
anyway, every time i perceive that i might have bought a drink, now i take that money and deposit it, then i'll get a gift certificate to a nice clothing store for her.


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## draconis

Nice thought that not only are you giving up drinking for her but that you are giving that money to her.

draconis


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## voivod

oh, it turns out i'm giving up drinking for us...promise kept late, but the clothes fund, that's for her. she deserves to know what it feels like to have my blessing on a clothing purchase.


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## voivod

drac, swedish, justean, amp, thank you so much for the doses of sanity. i'm headed over to her apt right now for another quiet evening with her & the kids.


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## draconis

I am sure I speak for everyone.

We wish you the best luck.

draconis


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## voivod

cut short last night, due to her being extremely tired. not much in the way of progress. but she did say out loud that she cared about me.


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## voivod

last night turned out great, short but great. we went to get pizza after kids soccer practice. i went over to her apt. to deliver the clothing gift certificate that swedish suggested, and she asked me if "making amends was hard" for me. she thought the gc was a part of my aa process. it's not, technically, but it sure could be. one of the big points my wife made to me upon separation was "all the money i spent on booze and strippers and i criticized her every time she purchased new clothes." 

that hit me hard. it's amazing what the clarity of sobriety allows you to see. did i really do what she said??? i guess so. so i got kinda teary when she mentioned me "making amends" cuz that meant to me she saw progress, if she perceived i was on that step now. 

i've been completely sober for 95 days and separated for 63 days. i am so impatient, want this nightmare to heal. i love her so much. to see her glow or sparkle when we are together, or to hear her say with pride "this is my husband" when she introduces me to a former co-worker, emotions flow sometimes.

first day of school for the kids coming up monday, and i set that day as a goal for when i wanted us back together, mostly because logistically it would work best. that's not gonna happen, so that'll be a tough day.

tonight we'll have some time together, but my oldest daughter (16) will be hovering because that's what she does, which won't leave us much time to chat. i think daughter is trying to be a protecter for her mom. my counselor says that's not uncommon, and it doesn't mean she doesn't want mom & dad back together. ok.

anyway, sorry for rambling. it's just that so many people have been so helpful that i wanted y'all to see an update.

thank you again.


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## draconis

Thanks for the update. Remember she knows that relapses are so easy to fall into and might be unsure still. I think she is noticing.

draconis


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## voivod

damn, tonite were apart for the first time in awhile. she's tired from working so much, but her "no" to the community showing of pirates of the carribean felt like rejection. i'll miss her tonite. i felt like there was so much progress being made.


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## draconis

voivod said:


> damn, tonite were apart for the first time in awhile. she's tired from working so much, but her "no" to the community showing of pirates of the carribean felt like rejection. i'll miss her tonite. i felt like there was so much progress being made.


Just remember even in solid relationships there are disappointments from the mundane life.

draconis


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## voivod

hey drac,
every time i get to the point where i feel good about things, i find something that send me into a bit of a tailspin. i saw a post of yours tonight that said separation usually end in divorce. true? why the heck should i feel good about the progress we've made during our separation?


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## draconis

voivod said:


> hey drac,
> i saw a post of yours tonight that said separation usually end in divorce. true?


Very true but let's put it in a better perspective. Most people that seperate do so as a step towards divorce. They will not even give their spouse the time of day, let alone a second thought. You have already overcome a lot in this area.

Second thing I'd like to say is that I think your positive attitude has helped you and I believe that you need to keep it to hold your chances open.

Third, having a healthy spirit and mind will not only help your relationship with her, but your life in general. Even if things get bad and you fall a notch or two, you still will not be as far down as if you had been lower on the scale. 

So keep hope, you are breaking all the odds so far.

draconis


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## voivod

uh, oh, one of my kids was snoopin thru the cell phones and found a text message to her step-nephew sent by mom that said she "likes being single." what the hell...


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## draconis

voivod said:


> uh, oh, one of my kids was snoopin thru the cell phones and found a text message to her step-nephew sent by mom that said she "likes being single." what the hell...


I will assume it to be the 16 year old. But do you find it that stange that something like the freedom from a relationship can seem exciting after such a long time in a relationship. She has a fantasy of how great single life can be. 

"The grass is always greener."

draconis


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## voivod

drac,

for clarification, the text was on my wifes phone from our step-nephew. friends with my 16 yr old.

last laugh the best laugh...if i was worried, my worries were reduced tonight...i brought her flowers and a card saying some of the things i've had a hard time with (things like the gratitude for being there to do the evaluation on me after my stroke, getting me prompt medical care, having the top neurosurgeon in the region on stand by in case surgery was neccesary, etc.) and she changed plans on me. swimming, no...go to a movie, YES! 

we are both big fans of the old Get Smart series, and we had planned to see the movie "when it came out" before our separation. she paid, it felt like a real date. 

she looked in my eyes during every funny part waiting to see my reaction. i laughed had such a great time, and she set another time and asked me to pick the movie for tomorrow night.

finally, yeah i'm sure she is loving being single, the only guy she's dating (me) is treating her like the princess she deserves to be treated like.


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## draconis

So why worry,

I think you needed to learn how to better treat her and you have become the man of her dreams. Now to stay with it, forget the worries and be the best you, that you can for her.

draconis


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## voivod

drac,
y'know, throughout my life i've been the guy who fixes things, professionally, that was my major role in both careers. so not being able to "fix" this has bee tough on the ego & self esteem. i felt backed into a corner with the latest development. 

to fix it, i hunkered back and did the things i know to be right: chill out, act with confidence (she laughed when i strode thru the doorway holding the bouquet like a fencing epee and gave a quick "slash", sort of an "off with there heads jesture.) and HAVE FUN!!! i was treated to a wonderful night out and a return request for tomorrow. 

beth also invited herself to look at houses with me tomorrow. i'm downsizing for the sake of my health. big mortgage led to big stress. 

the child i was worried about thru this separation (11 yr old girl, 3rd child, daddy'd girl) was thrilled by our actions tonight. 

i can't believe i'm still awake. insomnia by euphoria. i'll take it.

drac, i'm falling in love with her again. acts of kindness, honor, service, all are incredible for this. i'm falling in love again!!!


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## draconis

voivod said:


> drac, i'm falling in love with her again. acts of kindness, honor, service, all are incredible for this. i'm falling in love again!!!



Great to hear, I fall in love with my wife every day. After ten years she says she still has butterflies when she sees me. 

w00t!

draconis


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## voivod

today at individual counseling, my counselor said something about beth being co-dependent. holy crap that scared me. he went on to identify her natural father (abandonment) her step dad (alcoholic) her mother (enabler) he nailed it, right down the line. said she was drawn to traits she obseved growing up. knowing her story, i feel so bad for her. i want her to be happy. he said if i fulfilled the roles without displaying the negatives (alky, abandonment, etc.) then she would be happy. and when she tries to "take power" (thru controlling her environment, just offer to "do it for her" (she has done almost everything in our relationship, includung buying the houses, arranging leases, all the big stuff, because she's felt she had to (i guess an alcoholic isn't able to). does this sound psycho-babbly to y'all or does it make sense? have you been in counseling and gotten a read like this. by the way, he too said i should relax, the evidence proves she wants to be with me. uh, ok. ps-we had dinner at the restaurant where my 16yr old daughter (protector of mom) works. great time, but she was a little cranky cuz she was tired and hungry. invited me in to her house afterwards for a donut. we kinda got a giggle outta some sexual innuendo about that. yay!


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## draconis

Keep in mind that labels tend to be right more often then not, enviroment plays a big role in how we handle things. It doesn't mean that they are always right.

I am glad to see things are still moving forward for the both of you.

draconis


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## voivod

why does she keep going to dinner and movies and the park and long sunday drives with me if she wants to be separated??? i'm sure many guys would be hapy with this situation given the alternative, but i am having a hard time with the notion that she's acting like we're still together! don't get me wrong, i love the chance to be with her, but [email protected], we could be living under the same roof right now and things wouldn't be much different than they are right now.


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## draconis

voivod said:


> why does she keep going to dinner and movies and the park and long sunday drives with me if she wants to be separated??? i'm sure many guys would be hapy with this situation given the alternative, but i am having a hard time with the notion that she's acting like we're still together! don't get me wrong, i love the chance to be with her, but [email protected], we could be living under the same roof right now and things wouldn't be much different than they are right now.



I doubt she believes that and she needs the proof that this isn't short lived for her to get her trust back. As I have said before my FIL was 18 years sober and then went off the wagon for a couple of months. 

Trust is a hard thing to gain back after you lost it. 

draconis


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## voivod

just got back from lunch with her (makes you sick, huh, i'm whining about separation, many guys don't spend this much time with their wives normally) and she vented on me about her work. i listened, didn't give any advice, laffed at the appropriate times and had a great time. she actually had a few questions about my individual counseling. i think we're getting together tonight too. i hope.


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## draconis

Wow sounds great, keep up the great work you are doing.

draconis


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## swedish

voivod said:


> today at individual counseling, my counselor said something about beth being co-dependent. holy crap that scared me. he went on to identify her natural father (abandonment) her step dad (alcoholic) her mother (enabler) he nailed it, right down the line. said she was drawn to traits she obseved growing up. knowing her story, i feel so bad for her. i want her to be happy. he said if i fulfilled the roles without displaying the negatives (alky, abandonment, etc.) then she would be happy. and when she tries to "take power" (thru controlling her environment, just offer to "do it for her" (she has done almost everything in our relationship, includung buying the houses, arranging leases, all the big stuff, because she's felt she had to (i guess an alcoholic isn't able to). does this sound psycho-babbly to y'all or does it make sense? have you been in counseling and gotten a read like this.


I've never heard this professionally, but boy I can relate to her childhood and controlling her environment because she had to...makes perfect sense to me on a personal level because it describes how I am.

Over the last several months I've talked to my husband about this and basically I think he thought I wanted to control things but I told him I would love to stop but fear if I don't do it, it won't get done and that's more stress than just doing it myself. Anyway, once he understood where I was coming from (and he came into my life when I was divorced w/3 kids and saw me doing everything) and knew I would welcome his help, he stepped right up. Again, the communication thing.

I appreciate everything he has offered to take off my plate and now have very little stress and feel loved and cared for. I think offering to do things for her is a great idea. He went a step beyond taking things off of my plate...he also added some things...like making me breakfast on the weekends, 'swedish' night where he makes dinner, runs me a bath, gives me a massage, etc. (save up some ideas for when you are all under 1 roof again ) ~or~ invite her and the kids over for dinner...you do all the cooking/clean-up & give her a sneak preview of the sweet life when she comes back 

Keep it up...it really is moving forward even though it might seem like things aren't going fast enough, each day she is seeing the new you.


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## voivod

>>>Keep it up...it really is moving forward even though it might seem like things aren't going fast enough, each day she is seeing the new you.<<<

whew, counselor says it's moving lightning fast, i feel like it's going sssslllooowwww as mollasses.

she introduced me as her husband again last night. wow, i'm grasping at straws aren't i?!?!?


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## voivod

fast forward a couple of weeks, she used the d-word in reference to a couple of friends at work, which freaked me out.

then she went to the drive-in with me, and said she would like to go again next weekend.

the counselor says all systems are go for a sllloooww reconciliatiomn. ok, i'll take slow. it beats the hell out of the alternative. thank you everyone for your words of encouragement here. i'm not kidding when i say i couldn't have gotten thru this to this point without it.


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## draconis

Hopely everything works the way you want it too, and you become a better person in the process. I'll always be here for you. A side note, I have been having problems with my work computer so I have not been on as much.

draconis

draconis


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## voivod

drac,

i did visit your myspace page and wanna say that your dedication to people who need some help is awesome. i read all the blog entries, and i think i've found something in all of them that is helpful.

on a side note, i was awakened this morning at 1:45 by a strong sense of an omnipotent being trying to tell me something. that is, an understanding swept over me with regard to my separation as to why it is taking so long to heal itself. i woke with relief to find that God is listening.

whew, i'm still breathless by the feeling, but it is real! everything is gonna be ok.

i had one of those dinner/movie stay at home dates last night with my wife. it was incredibly comfortable. i felt closer to her than i had for awhile. went to sleep peacefully tonight, to be awakened to the overwhelming thought that God was telling me something. i've turned into a prayin' man since the stroke, and his answer was clear to me tonite: the reason this separation was going to make me agonize as to it's length is that i will never again take beth or my family for granted again. He's going to make this be uncomfortable to remind me of that. wow!


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## draconis

Job 12:24-25 (King James Version)

24He taketh away the heart of the chief of the people of the earth, and causeth them to wander in a wilderness where there is no way. 

25They grope in the dark without light, and he maketh them to stagger like a drunken man.

Genesis 29:19-21 (King James Version)

19And Laban said, It is better that I give her to thee, than that I should give her to another man: abide with me. 

20And Jacob served seven years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had to her. 

21And Jacob said unto Laban, Give me my wife, for my days are fulfilled, that I may go in unto her.

Footprints 

One night I had a dream--
I dreamed I was walking along the beach with the Lord 
and across the sky flashed scenes from my life. 
For each scene I noticed two sets of footprints, 
one belonged to me and the other to the Lord. 
When the last scene of my life flashed before me,
I looked back at the footprints in the sand.
I noticed that many times along the path of my life,
there was only one set of footprints.
I also noticed that it happened at the very lowest
and saddest times in my life. 
This really bothered me and I questioned the Lord about it. 
"Lord, you said that once I decided to follow you,
you would walk with me all the way,
but I have noticed that during the most troublesome times in my life
there is only one set of footprints. 
"I don't understand why in times when I needed you most,
you should leave me." 
The Lord replied, "My precious, precious child,
I love you and I would never, never leave you
during your times of trial and suffering. 
"When you saw only one set of footprints,
it was then that I carried you."

...Mary Stevenson


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## voivod

strong stuff drac...

i am so much calmer since the God thing happened to me. that was so intense. i am still sad, but the hope that lies in the fact that she's still spending time with me.

no one can predict the future, but everyone is saying good things about this marriage. i so hope they are right. i'm fully accepting that patience is a necesary ingredient in the healing.

all i am asking is a little optimism from this forum to keep me moving forward. you know that this can be so draining.

thanks,
chris

ps-sorry to all for the doom and gloom early on. this relationship and family mean the world to me. i hope one day i can report back that this marriage is healed.


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## swedish

Hi Chris,

I'm glad you found this place .... no need to apologize, many of us came here in similar states of mind. One thing about your situation is that it is obvious your wife cares for you dearly and you are growing each day as far as your patience and acceptance of why this is all happening. I look forward to the day you report back that all is healed and we are all here in the meantime.


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## voivod

i'm glad i found this place too. i am truly impressed by the empathy shown by the moderators and supporters. also, seemingly a deep amount of wisdom. we are truly blessed to have this resource available. no way most of us have friends and family with enough energy to endure our storms.

good news i think. i just got a text back from beth and she's considering doing couples therapy with me starting monday (fingers firmly crossed). pray for this please. i've been witness to miracles (i lived and i can walk). no reason to not expect 'em now, huh!!!


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## draconis

voivod said:


> good news i think. i just got a text back from beth and she's considering doing couples therapy with me starting monday (fingers firmly crossed). pray for this please. i've been witness to miracles (i lived and i can walk). no reason to not expect 'em now, huh!!!


Couples? Great it seems like things are getting much better. Just remember how important she is and never stop all the wonderful things you have done to get her to this stage. That angel deserves your best.

draconis


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## MarkTwain

What a result! Well done.


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## voivod

thanks to all in advance for your support. i am at a bit of a mental crossroads. i've told my wife that i'm not giving up, i think she sees that in my efforts. but the one thing i'm wandering around thinking is, other than the beer issue of may 19th and some peripheral (sp) issue such as jealousy, i don't really know what i've done wrong. we're separated for something (the beer) that i have dealt with. 

i want to ask forgiveness, actually have and have not received forgiveness from beth. should i press the issue? if she doesn't see that i'm dealing with it, forgiveness will never come. and i think she needs to forgive (for her) to eventually reconcile. is this the wrong way to look at things right now?

WOW NO ONE CAN SAY THIS SEPARATION STUFF IS BORING! THE TEXT ON MY PHONE JUST WENT off, i'm on pins and needles because...
sweet, she just texted me back and confirmed she'll be at our monday therapy with doctor rice. she knows his wife is gonna be there, and she knows his wife is a therapist/clinical psychologist who works with dr. rice and couples therapy. this is good, i hope.
i'm always scared i'll get ambushed with negative information. this is the woman who said in the lobby of the office, before my very first individual session "let's hope this works." yeah, hope and PRAY


----------



## draconis

I PM'd you my thoughts. I hope that this weekend goes well for you and monday is the start of the healing process for your mariage.

draconis


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## voivod

drac,
thanks, my friend. i'm afraid this thing has put me into some kind of depression. i hardly want to get out of bed, and i'm always in a horrible place mentally. i dwell on negative and am not sleeping well, staying up way too late. i gotta beat this. y'know, one thing that would cure it is some hope for reconciliation. i'm tryin' buddy. i just wanna believe that her going with me on monday is a good thing


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## draconis

Just like the best selling book said.

"Don't Sweat the Small Things."

I know this isn't small. But you have to control you. You can't obsess over her reaction monday, it can only make it tougher for you.

draconis


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## voivod

drac/swedish/justean/827/leah/blind,
here's the latest:

(COPIED AND PASTED FROM ANOTHER THREAD, MY APOLOGIES IF THIS DOESN'T FOLLOW BOARD PROTOCOL. I JUST DIDN'T WANT YA JUMPIN ROUND LOOKIN' AT THE SAME SILL POST)

i just got home from maybe the funnest time i've had with beth in a looonnnggg time. we put together my waterbed, laughing all the way, pretty funny talk about her and i and our old tennis rivalry (i WAS better than her, but whatever), she invited me to a jim gaffigan comedy show this saturday (and i'm thinking about doing a limo for the show) and we had dynamite small talk tonight over dinner at the park with the kids. 

i couldn't have had a better night. the nice part is that we went to see "mamma mia" at the drive in theater last night and enjoyed each other's company. so it's two nights in a row. that really feels good.

i swear to God i'm falling in love again. i never want to hurt her again. i never want to be hurt again. she is so perfect, i swear. she deserves the best, and i am trying so hard. she knows that, i know she does. she'll never have to make an effort again, everything is going to be easy for her. she's worked so damned hard for me, her family has never made it easy for her either. i'm gona be the knight in shining armor. i was before, i will again.


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## voivod

oh my...
God is providing me with opportunity galore!!!

arrived in the mail today...a filing from the county clerks office. stating that my wife (and i, by extension) won a civil suit against a collection agency that was suing us under the pretense that we owed the money. the bill was paid and by luck my wife had kept the receipts.

so she fought the original suit rather than roll over, did all the legal filings on her own, did em right and the case was "dismissed with prejudice." we hafta pay some bogus legal fee, but WON THE CASE!

so i made a copy of the first page, had my daughter make a heart and color it saying "congrats! you won! i'm so proud!" we put it all together in a frame and gave it to her today. i think positiveness came from the giving. she thought i never appreciated her efforts or her intelligence. i think she might feel different now.


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## draconis

voivod said:


> oh my...
> God is providing me with opportunity galore!!!
> 
> arrived in the mail today...a filing from the county clerks office. stating that my wife (and i, by extension) won a civil suit against a collection agency that was suing us under the pretense that we owed the money. the bill was paid and by luck my wife had kept the receipts.
> 
> so she fought the original suit rather than roll over, did all the legal filings on her own, did em right and the case was "dismissed with prejudice." we hafta pay some bogus legal fee, but WON THE CASE!
> 
> so i made a copy of the first page, had my daughter make a heart and color it saying "congrats! you won! i'm so proud!" we put it all together in a frame and gave it to her today. i think positiveness came from the giving. she thought i never appreciated her efforts or her intelligence. i think she might feel different now.


Often all the small things add up in a relationship.

draconis


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## voivod

drac,
how funny is it that i have been so fearful of "the worst" and GOOD NEWS came in an envelope from the clerk of the district court of my county. imagine me opening the envelope saying "please God don't let this be... and then finding this inside..."
whew!!!


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## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> so i made a copy of the first page, had my daughter make a heart and color it saying "congrats! you won! i'm so proud!" we put it all together in a frame and gave it to her today. i think positiveness came from the giving. she thought i never appreciated her efforts or her intelligence. i think she might feel different now.


Man you are a LOVE genius!  People will soon be studying at you feet!


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## voivod

therapy session was crazy today. we work on communication, but it was mostly a chance for beth to tell me what she was frustrated with me about. i learned that she took her job only to provide a second income stream, and that she was planning on quitting last december, and that she resents me having the stroke because that made her stay on way longer than she wanted. crap, she could have told me this, i would have understood, i think. anyway, therapist made me sign a "contract" indicating that i would take control of the sale of our house as so to take the pressure off beth. i don't know what this is supposed to acheive, but i'm ok with it if it helps us heal. anyway, spoke with beth afterwards and she still wants me to take her to the gaffigan show. she sounded excited about it, and kinda happy about the session. i don't know why, but that's not for me to say.


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## voivod

sorry to follow my own post with another, but it's taken all day to digest this. we had a good session today. my fear was having "the bomb" dropped on me. in other words, beth would use the safety of my therapists office to tell me to get bent. 

well, the bomb takes many forms. i am so glad that she did feel the safety of dr. rice's office because it helped her tell me some things that i probably did not hear before. it broke my heart to hear her talk about our house and the need to sell it. that house was her dream. she called it a modest dream. dammit, how did i miss the past 17 years??? f-ing alcohol made me an immature child with regard to responsibilities. how do i make up 16 years of frustrating her? i know how. my plan, and a swear i'm sticking to it, is to rathole away a thousand bucks a month, build a nest egg, and purchase another house, of her choice. as a gift. i'm going to acheive this, i swear to God.

i'm going to become the best damned listener ever. i'm gonna hear what she says, pay attention. y'know dudes get blamed for not hearing, listening, whatever, because it's true. i think we're wired different. learn to LISTEN and you'll never feel blindsided in your relationship.

in summary, today's session was good, because i think it gave beth a forum. am i frustrated that i didn't know how deeply i was hurting her? YEP! but after a quick review with her tonight, it's clear that i was given a roadmap to reconciliation today. is it going to be difficult? sure. i liken it to a deep wound. it takes a long time and a lotta care to heal, but it can. and trust me, it will, God willing. and i think He's on board with us. jim gaffigan (funny-ass comedian) friday night, limo's off (beth says what an incredible waste of money. i see her point. we'll put the money towards something worthwhile) but dinner's on. i'm gonna make this a full on date.

ps- wanna know the truth? those "save your marriage" books, every one of them, are common sense. use your head guys. you want to keep your wife happy. keep her happy. it ain't that hard.


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## draconis

Have you ben keeping a journal. If not here is my suggestion. During my 4th year I recorded every day in a journal. Saved all the stubs and checks to the places we went and things we did together. The good and bad. For our fifth year anv. I gave it to her. Poety, the stubs, movie reviews I clipped out that we saw, pettles from roses I gave her etc. She loved it and read through it remembering each thing. Every other page was blank so she could add her feelings and keep the book.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> Have you ben keeping a journal. If not here is my suggestion. During my 4th year I recorded every day in a journal. Saved all the stubs and checks to the places we went and things we did together. The good and bad. For our fifth year anv. I gave it to her. Poety, the stubs, movie reviews I clipped out that we saw, pettles from roses I gave her etc. She loved it and read through it remembering each thing. Every other page was blank so she could add her feelings and keep the book.
> 
> draconis


drac,
that's awesome!

that's why you are the doctor of love


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## draconis

voivod said:


> drac,
> that's awesome!
> 
> that's why you are the doctor of love




I feel warm and fuzzy.

draconis


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## voivod

drac,
dudes have a tendency to throw out stuff. i looked thru my truck today and found some sentimental stuff the would fit right in to the journal/scrapbook idea. i'm gonna steal your idea, i don't know when is appropriate to give it to her, but i will.
thank again!
chris


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## draconis

Take the idea and run with it. Give it to her whenever you wish and feel the time is right.

draconis


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## justean

well only checking up on you again - your really doing wonderful - a changed man .


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## savemymarriagenow

Wow it sounds like you are going through so much and I am so sorry for that. You should definitely start taking some action if you want to win her back. I read these great articles that deal with lack of trust and winning your spouse back in general. You can sign up at Marriage Fitness - Mort Fertel Good luck with everything!


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## voivod

frustrating stuff at the counselor's office. she was asked "name three things that are frustrating you right now." she named 3 things from work. then they egged her into "3 things about chris that frustrate you." she had a tough time coming up with three.

the part the frustrated me (and i'm gonna have a word with my counselor about) is that she was allowed to say anything and it was taken as gospel truth. one of the frustrations is that i had short term disability that provided for 28-thousand dollars in salary replacement for the duration of my illness. if our house was in jeopardy of being lost, where did that money go? because it's spent. beth says "i paid a lot of other bills with that money." ok, i'm not asking for proof, but don't blame me for spending money on "booze and strippers" (from my radio days, not one dime on striipers for the record, my show just had a reputation.) and not be accountable for my entire salary from feb 1 thru july 15th. it's hard for me to sit still and have the counselors let her run about "things that frustrate beth about chris" and not feel a little resentment for not being able to defend myself.

si i'll go back on monday and ask him about what the hell that was about, and hopefully get an answer that makes sense. the good thing, i think, was that we came out a little ahead, as i have a "contract" with beth witnessed by the counselor forcing ME to take action with the house. i'll sell it, take a major beating (the market sucks, in case you hadn't heard) save some face with beth (her biggest ***** with me was i didn't DO things, i always stood back and let her do them-true :-( and financially plan the purchase of our next home.

so we exited the session with a great deal more clarity (?) of our issues and a date friday night for dinner/the jim gaffigan comedy show. she asked me yesterday at dinner if i was "excited" about going. hell yeah, i got gramma to babysit & my daughter made us a card, i'm gonna get her a little corsage (like the prom i guess, kinda cutesy), dinner, gonna pass on the limo. beth says-- "what an incredible waste of money"--ok. but i wanna make this as close to a realistic "date" from a courtship standpoint as possible.


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## draconis

I hope you get your answer from the councilor but it almost sounds to me that he wanted her to dig down and expose the problems so that they can be fixed. Let's hope that it is it. Otherwise the guy is a fruit cake.

draconis


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## voivod

drac,
i don't like the "either/or" scenario. either he's spot-on OR he's a quack? if this were traditional medicine, i'd have a 50/50 shot!!! i don't like my chances.


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## draconis

Once you talk t him you will know more until then enjoy the date you have coming up.

draconis


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## voivod

i will enjoy it...these new thoughts of anger/frustration are clouding my enthusiasm for it...i think i'm stuck in this new place of maybe thinking the problem is bigger than what has been stated...

you know, i went to another therapist friday after the monday session with dr rice (the one that encouraged beth to "tell me 3 things that frustrate you) and the second therapist came right around to chilhood issue that dr. rice never addressed, never even brought up. now, i understand there are different theories to therapy, but this new guy made sense. i told beth i went to see this new guy. she seemed to be a little concerned that i went to see him without consulting dr. rice. she liked dr. rice.

anyway, i'm going to see him monday. i don't know yet if beth will be there, but i'm asking him tough questions regardless. maybe he'll make it clear to me, maybe he won't. he claims to be "marriage friendly." i've just heard of too many counselors who "throw out the babt with the bathwater," in other words, they aren't exactly agendized to healing the relationship, rather they blame the relationship. who knows, we'll see monday but yes, in fact, i WILL enjoy the date friday night. the key to success is lowering expectations, i've heard, so i have my hopes in that "not too high" place. talk to ya friday night or saturday morning. thanks.


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## draconis

I think his approach will do one of two things. Find the hidden problems so they can be fixed or make mountains out of mole hills. Either way it will test the strength of the marriage and be clearer where things are at. The fact that you went to see another guy isn't bad. I see eight health care professionals for my MD. I have fired many doctors because I didn't like there approach which often is "oh, looks bad, must hurt all the time, sorry there is no cure." That isn't an answer I can take. I want every way to help myself, just like you.

draconis


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## voivod

ok, date tonite. what can i do or say to move things forward a bit? i'm kinda anxious.


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## draconis

Ask her what she thought about the Dr Rice questions.

draconis


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## voivod

drac,

the dr. rice questions came up tonite. she very much liked dr. rice, mostly because he listened, didn't dismiss her "complaints," and ASKED THAT I RESCHEDULE SESSIONS TO WEDNESDAYS SO SHE COULD ATTEND REGULARLY!!! dr. rice said she would do that IF SHE WERE INVESTED IN HEALING THE MARRIAGE!!! I believe i have a chance! now, don't blow it, stay sober, be a good father, always be there, etc.

by the way, we had an incredibly good time at the jim gaffigan show. he's a clean, FUNNY comedian. if you ever get the chance, go see him.

my kids are thrilled at the developments tonight. my 11 yr old daughter made us a "have fun tonite" card and wrote "be back before midnight" inside and put a gaffigan cd inside to remind her of our fun. mom thought that was sweet, scored some points there, and i got her an autograph for the scrapbook.

tonight, i'm on cloud nine. i think the work is paying off. and i took her out to one of my old drinkin' haunts, had dinner, bought a beer for beth (to show her "no hard feelings" if she wanted a beverage) and i had a diet coke. no problems, i think she was not uncomfortable with the presence of alcohol.


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## draconis

Wow I am so impressed that things are moving forward for you. Stay strong man. I will keep praying for the two of you.

Never forget, and be the man you are now forever to her once you win her back.

draconis


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## voivod

drac,
i include you in my prayers as well. i don't know much about MD but i will commit myself to knowledge of the disease and pray for relief for you and other sufferers. 

you have been a great inspiration to me, with your writings and you dedication to your wife. your dedication shows in your writings, and i often think you two must have a dynamite relationship. 

oh, btw, beth told me tonight she wanted to go back to school to be a nurse. i think she was "checking my pulse" on the idea, in otherwords see how i'd react. i congratulated her, wished her luck, and that was that.

thank you.
chris


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## voivod

ok,
beth asked me today if i was going to switch days that we would see dr. rice to accomodate her work schedule. she said she liked him and that she thought the team of dr. and mrs. rice was good.

i'm having dinner and seeing a movie over at her place tonight. she has been incredibly nice and i have good feelings about a future with her. we had a good time saturday watching our hometown college team on tv at my place saturday night.

i pray that i am not getting false positives from this. i can be so freaking negative. i gotta stop that and just enjoy my time with her. i keep going back to the "she wouldn't spend so much time with me if she wanted away from me" theory. that's gotta be true, huh?


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## MarkTwain

voivod-

This is all very touching but I worry for you. I worry that you think so little of yourself that only Beth can complete you. She will love you more if you can develop an inner confidence that you have never tasted so far in life. I hope you can find that somehow.


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## draconis

I would see no possible way for her to gain anything from spending all this time with you than dropping a bomb. I think she needs to feel the security that you can keep up your sidde of things. I think the two doctor approach might help her get to feeling possitive about you. Anything is worth a shot and it is obvious that she still cares for you.

draconis


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## voivod

mt-
you know, i've always had confidence in myself, i don't know what it is that makes me lack self-confidence now. i truly believe beth IS what completes me. that is wrong? i have acheived everything else. she is really my "soul mate" as i've heard it described.

drac-she clearly is not using it to "drop a bomb." she asked me if i know why i lived thru the stroke. i have prayed about it deeply, the answer that i keep getting is "to make amends." that makes sense to me. i have a lot of amends to make! that answer seemed to please beth. she knows i'm trying to correct my wrongs.


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## draconis

It seems to me that you are correcting your past mistakes and doing better for it. Maybe even enjoying life better.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis-
yes, i believe that is true

MT-let me make this clear. she's been given credit with helping to save my life. i do have a sense of debt to her. if that means what you say is true, i'll accept that.


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## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> MT-let me make this clear. she's been given credit with helping to save my life. i do have a sense of debt to her. if that means what you say is true, i'll accept that.


Cool. I have been helped by a few good people in that past, but sometimes for whatever reason, I prefer to pass on that goodness to others rather than the person who helped me. It just works out that way sometimes. 

But form everything you say, it sounds like Beth wants you back. She just wants you in as good as shape as possible first. Being confident is what will really attract her or any other woman.


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## voivod

mt-
funny, i want to be back too. if she wants me back "in as good as shape as possible" i'm close to tip-top right now. confidence is down, but i'm sure that is because i'm alone. never have been since college. beth holds all the cards on that one, because i have no desire to be with anyone else.

i hold out hope as she has chosen to see my therapist with me starting next wednesday, but i've read so much about counseling not helping and actually hurting the relationship because it brings up so many negatives. i don't know. we never talk about "the issues" when were together and we have so much fun. i see that as healing.


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## voivod

i've been reading a lot of different posts on this board, it seems i'm being given quite a chance by my wife compared to many here, but i can't help thinking that if i had had an affair, at least i would have something i could blame all this on. i mean, i could see where an affair would be hard to get over for the offended party, but my transgression was fixed. i'm done with drinking, which has had an incredible effect on the rest of me, such as, i'm not jealous, possessive, etc. so here i sit waiting for next wednesday, which is our first regularly scheduled couples counseling, nor sure how to feel cuz beth has asked several times "why do i have to go?" but agreeing to go. makes me think she doesn't need to see any of the progress. my counselor has said "i'd really like to get her in al-anon" and she's already stated that she's not going to go. he's identified her as codependent and i don't think that'll play out too well; she already knows that and i don't think she likes that about herself. i'm kinda rambling now but probably looking for some positives in a seemingly negative situation. sorry. and why is she being so nice to me if she hates me? she just came over and was all smiles and nice and if she would just act like she hated me it would all add up but it doesn't! today i feel like i'm coming apart. my counselor says miracle are happening, i've read all your responses that say things are going along good, pm's indicating that she still loves me and to be patient, prayers being answered, yet still, this is the hardest road i've ever been on. praying and working the self esteem workbook...


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## MarkTwain

voivod-

You know, this is just a hunch, but I think she _was_ co-dependent on you, but when she decided to drop you like a hot potato until you sorted yourself out, I think she dropped her side of the co-dependency. Therapists are great for racking over the past, but they are apt to miss the PRESENT. Beth has moved on. In fact, so have you!  A smart move might be to NOT get her to come to all your therapy sessions.

Otherwise it all about you and your sickness. If you save meeting her for more normal settings, you may find your relationship gets more healthy. 

When she drooped you, she probably thought you would not make it, so you are probably making her very happy. Even if she does not want to take up with you, she will be pleased that her kids will have a living father, with a liver and kidneys that still work.


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## draconis

voivod said:


> i've been reading a lot of different posts on this board, it seems i'm being given quite a chance by my wife compared to many here, but i can't help thinking that if i had had an affair, at least i would have something i could blame all this on. i mean, i could see where an affair would be hard to get over for the offended party, but my transgression was fixed. i'm done with drinking, which has had an incredible effect on the rest of me, such as, i'm not jealous, possessive, etc. so here i sit waiting for next wednesday, which is our first regularly scheduled couples counseling, nor sure how to feel cuz beth has asked several times "why do i have to go?" but agreeing to go. makes me think she doesn't need to see any of the progress. my counselor has said "i'd really like to get her in al-anon" and she's already stated that she's not going to go. he's identified her as codependent and i don't think that'll play out too well; she already knows that and i don't think she likes that about herself. i'm kinda rambling now but probably looking for some positives in a seemingly negative situation. sorry. and why is she being so nice to me if she hates me? she just came over and was all smiles and nice and if she would just act like she hated me it would all add up but it doesn't! today i feel like i'm coming apart. my counselor says miracle are happening, i've read all your responses that say things are going along good, pm's indicating that she still loves me and to be patient, prayers being answered, yet still, this is the hardest road i've ever been on. praying and working the self esteem workbook...


But you know that addictions are not like that. You can be done for a week, month even years and still go right back to it. How many people quit smoking then one cigerette and they are hooked again. How many alcoholics after being sober a long time one drink and they can't stop until they are drunk.

draconis


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## Honey

draconis said:


> But you know that addictions are not like that. You can be done for a week, month even years and still go right back to it. How many people quit smoking then one cigerette and they are hooked again. How many alcoholics after being sober a long time one drink and they can't stop until they are drunk.
> 
> draconis


:iagree: What you say is very true, but if you have the will to stop, you can stop anything. It is hard, but it can be done.


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## Sweet love

I am waiting to see it happen.
it crave someone with wil to control himself first.
Someone who isnt so egoist tha the put everything else behind his bottle,.
and his own ego too.


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## draconis

Sweet love & honey please keep things on target and stop hijacking threads.

Sweet love I can't believe that you have read voivod's posts or you would know the sacrofice this man has made and the progress he has done. I can't see anything in your post that relates to him. If the two of you want to bicker start your own thread, or pm each other. Otherwise your time here will be short.

draconis


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## voivod

fyi-
i quit smoking 12 years ago cold turkey, never went back. i have no desire. i believe i can conquer (beat) this addiction. i don't really understand the reference to ego, please explain.

mt- you say:

>>>A smart move might be to NOT get her to come to all your therapy sessions.

Otherwise it all about you and your sickness. If you save meeting her for more normal settings, you may find your relationship gets more healthy.<<<

you know, i've had thoughts leaning that direction. it's just that beth's willingness seemed such a positive sign. i thought it was a bit risky too.

she had no doubt that i would make it, though mt, we've talked about that. when i asked her she said "i knew you would make it because we need you." we've had pretty long and deep conversations about my mortality. it's one of the things that keep hope alive. she said once during dinner at a local steak house, "it would have been so empty if you would have died. i knew you wouldn't." my 11 year old daughter overheard the conversation and smiled. she said "i knew you wouldn't because mommy said you couldn't." there's so many layers to my story. i'm gonna write a book for non-believers some day. i am a complete turn-around. i'm one of those "saw the light at the end of the tunnel in the emergency room" people. i promise, this much is true. y'know how kids can kinda obsess about death & dying? i have no problem telling my children "there is nothing to be afraid of" and mean it. anyway, off track a bit, sorry.


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## swedish

When I first read your story I thought it had the makings of a great movie...but it has to include the happy ending so I will hold out for that


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## brad

I'm pulling for you too. You seem to be making a sincere attempt at winning your wife back and I like the way your doing it.


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## voivod

swedish,
if this were a movie, it would be waaaaay to long. but thank you. happy endings for all!
thanks 
chris


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## voivod

ok, so today ended horribly...in my perspective.

we had planned to go to the drive in tonight. beth changed her mind, said she was "cranky" and didn't wanna be cooped up in the car with 3 cranky kids...

so my 11 year old (the most sensitive) gets upset about mom not wanting to go...

beth tells her "i don't wanna go with dad"

daughter gets upset, i decide to ask what that means. beth gives me some stuff about wanting to stay home, how she never gets alone time. i understand that, but then she says "we're not together" which i tell her "i know, i told you i agree, you made the right decision" and she says "i think it's obvious what to tell (my 11 yr old)"

this seemed like a shot across the bow. i'm trying, we had fun at the soccer games today, she gave me no indicator that she was going to act this way...

you guys, i feel like i'm losing now...help...then the phone rings...
she tells my 11 year old "mama got to watch tv with peace & quiet... why does she do this? keeps me on the edge of worst case scenario, then presents something rather neferious???

now i have the therapy session on wednesday...dare i ask him why she does this...keeps me on edge, and honest, i guess...


----------



## voivod

geez,
here we go again. we've done sunday drives forever. so after last nights "don't wanna go with dad" comment about the drive in, followed by last nights comment to me that she "doesn't ever get to watch tv by herself and relax" to today...we're going for...a sunday drive. albeit it's with the kids (always has been). i can't figure this woman out. she wants to be with me almost every day, she backs out of the drive in movie, she wants to go for a sunday drive. she's still on board for our counseling session, so my best guess is she still wants to see this marriage out, but gosh this is an emotional roller coaster!

i've looked at a lot of posts and threads here, and none seem to have the drama that this one has. is this so complicated that she can't figure it out? she's a smart girl.

on a side note, i made a list of things i've done and quit, y'know kind of a "here's what i've accomplished in the face of disaster" list, for proof that i can do anything, including quitting destructive behavior for her benefit. included: smoking, past cheating (in another relationship, she's already aware), overeating, anger, porn. why on earth can't i get clarity from her on how/when we can get back together??? i've proven myself, i think. note: just hung up the phone with her: "come on over, yeah, i'll go." it's hard to keep going back and forth emotionally.

decided to add info to this post. funny, it's kinda becoming a journal! i'm pathetic! anyway, just got back from sunday drive and dinner. prayed for a miracle last night. got one today, she went from cold and almost mean to outright nice and warm today. lotsa smiles and eye contact. and a request for a repeat next weekend! whew. this can't be as bad as i make it out to be.


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## draconis

She is still afraid of being hurt.

draconis


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## voivod

agreed. but she's not ever going to be hurt by me or anyone else again. i've made that my lifes work.

it's that wall that needs to come down. i've got to find a way to expose herself to the danger of being hurt, then not hurt her. i tried that once before earlier. i invited her to nevada to play a little. last time we were there was our anniversary. she declined my invite, although i acknowledged my mistakes the last time we were there. not a particularly pleasant trip for her. i was a f-ing jerk. i don't know how, but someday that's an amend i'm gonna make. anyway, if i can get her to expose herself, then she sees that i'm not going to hurt her, well...


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## draconis

DOn't force the situation. She knows you have an addictive personality.

draconis


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## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> mt- you say:
> 
> >>>A smart move might be to NOT get her to come to all your therapy sessions.
> 
> Otherwise it all about you and your sickness. If you save meeting her for more normal settings, you may find your relationship gets more healthy.<<<
> 
> you know, i've had thoughts leaning that direction. it's just that beth's willingness seemed such a positive sign. i thought it was a bit risky too.


You are taking what the English would call the "jam now" solution. Just because it feels easy to fall into something, like both going to counseling, does not mean it is the most optimum. You have rendered yourself powerless by putting your wife on a pedestal. Few women get turned on by a lap dog.

What about when Jesus said: "Ye are the salt of the earth, but if the salt hath lost is savor, wherewith shall it be salted? It is of no use but to be trodden under the feet of men". (I hope I got that quote right).

So you need to get a little bit more salty in my opinion...


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## brad

MarkTwain said:


> You are taking what the English would call the "jam now" solution. Just because it feels easy to fall into something, like both going to counseling, does not mean it is the most optimum. You have rendered yourself powerless by putting your wife on a pedestal. Few women get turned on by a lap dog.
> 
> What about when Jesus said: "Ye are the salt of the earth, but if the salt hath lost is savor, wherewith shall it be salted? It is of no use but to be trodden under the feet of men". (I hope I got that quote right).
> 
> So you need to get a little bit more salty in my opinion...


It's part of the energy work I was trying to tell him about. Desperate people give off very bad vibrations. People who want to be liked or loved by others send people running away. It seems like such a dichotomy but it's so true.


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## voivod

so what should i do? ignore her? get another chick? what? i'm trying (i think) to win trust back. therapist (we're both gonna see him wednesday) says i need to lent her vent/air it out, without confrontation, so she can work through things herself. i trust him.


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## voivod

i'm literally two days from a real couples counselling session wife the love of my life and i let doubts into my head because of posts to this board. dammit, i'm trying like hell to save a marriage and now i'm not being salty enough? i guess i opened myself up to it.


----------



## brad

voivod said:


> so what should i do? ignore her? get another chick? what? i'm trying (i think) to win trust back. therapist (we're both gonna see him wednesday) says i need to lent her vent/air it out, without confrontation, so she can work through things herself. i trust him.


Your so black and white about everything. You need a blend of working to get her back and working on yourself. It sounds like your obsessed with your wife. That is never a healthy thing. I could feel your overboard energy coming through in your posts. I can only imagine what it would be like in person. It does sound like advice confuses you somewhat so I am going to bow out. good luck.


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## voivod

brad-
don't be put off by me, thank you for the "good luck." i'm sure it is fatiguing being around me. i've had that effect on co-workers too. working on myself to solve that and other problems. i cannot believe that i've let my relationship get to this point, but you make great observations...the black & white thing i've heard my whole life. my therapist said today "you have more moods than cassius clay." he's an older dude, i don't know where that saying came from, but i understood him. you said "advice confuses you somewhat." i don't know if it confuses me or if i am afraid to absorb it. i'm a smart guy, but with my emotions i don't show too many smarts. thanks for the slap. seriously.


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## MarkTwain

Getting a bit more salty in your case means being more self reliant, and being a little bit tougher. Think of a Clint Eastwood character, but not Dirty Harry 

What about Humphrey Bogart? He would never run around after a "dame" the way you do.

"Play it Sam".


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## voivod

ha! my wifes favorite actor! Bogie!


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## voivod

i'm sitting here, it's 3 1/2 hours til our appt. i just got off the phone with her, she referred to it as "my appointment" and i wish she'd take a little ownership of it, say "our appointment" or something. i am so anxious i think i'm gonna jump out of my skin. heart is racing, you know, all those physical signals you get when something doesn't seem right. i've wondered "why am i freaking out?" dr. rice has said she loves me, he won't let it get out of control, a huge amount of opinion from here and other sources say everything is going fine, yet i'm still feeling like the other shoe is gonna drop. i've prayed, read, done a crap-load of work on the marriage. please God, let this session go well, please let her heart soften in his office, i don't know what else to do!


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## draconis

Well know you know (atleast from the PM) that things really did go well. You both got what you wanted in so much as you only calling her once a day and not pushing her away. Her knowing that twenty years means a lot to you.

There are no between the lines here. You are moving forward. I continue to pray.

draconis


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## voivod

moving forward? how?


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## draconis

I had pmed you from your last question and explain why even though it isn't the best way for you to move forward how I believe it to be moving forward.

draconis


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## voivod

yesterday's session had beth say "i 'm not taking him back." issues cited were: alcohol, irresponsible handling of money, space, honesty, self respect. only thing i can come up with is a contract like the one counselor suggested a couple of weeks ago. a zero tolerance deal where i can't violate any part of it. i think i'm at last ditch, hail mary time here.
1)no alcohol
2)money issues handled by beth
3)allow space upon request
4)no lies, live transparent life
5)promote independence
6)no jealousy
7)learn to help with all tasks
8)respect
9)zero tolerance

anything i could add, or does this seem like a stupid idea?


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## MarkTwain

Forget all that! I bet if you just drifted into the background, she would come after you. That would be my technique. 

I have to say, the way you come across is off-putting. You are being so overattentive that it is sickening. People are trying to tell you this, but you won't listen.

You will not get anywhere until you work on your lap-dog tendencies. All in my humble opinion of course!


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## Leahdorus

I agree with the folks here who say you are being too attentive to her. I've followed your story and while I believe you are a changed man, I think you're doing too much. As people keep telling me, you can't make another person do anything. You can only control what _you _do. You are already doing the right things and have seen evidence that she's coming around. Keep doing that because YOU want to for you, not solely to win her back.

Your desperation is coming through really loudly to me, and it is a bit off-putting. Try backing off and give her some space but keep doing the things you have chosen to work on for you.


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## voivod

ok, drifting off into the woodwork i go...thanks, the reality slapped me in the face yesterday when she said "chris, you know what happens when you pressure me so much...i run the other way." see ya in the woodwork.


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## draconis

voivod said:


> yesterday's session had beth say "i 'm not taking him back." issues cited were: alcohol, irresponsible handling of money, space, honesty, self respect. only thing i can come up with is a contract like the one counselor suggested a couple of weeks ago. a zero tolerance deal where i can't violate any part of it. i think i'm at last ditch, hail mary time here.
> 1)no alcohol
> 2)money issues handled by beth
> 3)allow space upon request
> 4)no lies, live transparent life
> 5)promote independence
> 6)no jealousy
> 7)learn to help with all tasks
> 8)respect
> 9)zero tolerance
> 
> anything i could add, or does this seem like a stupid idea?


As I have told you in pms I think it is a good idea and you have covered the bases with it. At some point though Beth needs to forgive you for the marriage to heal. You can't be on egg shells forever.

draconis


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## voivod

ok, i'm now officially "backed off." i'm going to be the guy who doesn't call or text (i admit i do it too much, dammit, i miss her, but it does, by her own admission, "send her running") limiting myself to one call or text per day, in person i'm chill (although you can't fault me for having fun when around her, i do) and it's gonna few and far between when i impose my presence on her (geez, that's gonna be hard, she invites me to alot of stuff)...

having said all that, she GLOWED to me at her tots soccer practice tonite...she makes me feel so welcome that it's hard not to hold optimism, like yesterday at the counselors office, when we played musical chairs... if you saw us, we're two freakin peas in a pod! 

then tonite after soccer practice, she was almost lit up talking to her assistant coaches about our outing to jim gaffigan or to the upcoming trans siberian orchestra concert...that's not until like november 11th!!! she's planning outings like that far in advance?!?!

but ok, i'm part of the woodwork. no pressure from ol' chris... guys, she's bustin my chops tonite at practice over not being able to head the soccer ball because of my stroke ("no more brain damage for you!!!!") we f-ing have fun....i'm supposed to let that fade into the woodwork?!?! but i'm off it...

i love you Beth. if you knew how i really felt, would this be going on?
love,
chris


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## draconis

Would it be going on?

I guess that is about how sincere she feels you really are. I think she wants to see that you are doing things for the right reasons and not just to get her back.

draconis


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## voivod

y'know drac,
i've thought of that. i want her back, yeah badly, but i think we can get back together too soon. like before the issue are properly dealt with. cuz i don't want either of us to go thru this again.


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## draconis

voivod said:


> y'know drac,
> i've thought of that. i want her back, yeah badly, but i think we can get back together too soon. like before the issue are properly dealt with. cuz i don't want either of us to go thru this again.



Honestly, I don't think you could survive this again. Maybe she thinks that too.

draconis


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## MarkTwain

Cutting down the texts was a good start. But you are still sending one a day. You need to let her start going a day without any texts or calls. Then guess what? She will miss you. How can she develop a hunger if you are feeding her a diet of lapdawgery all day? you are soooooo close to making this work. But that is it, you are doing too much. Back off bro.


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## voivod

well, we have 4 kids and i have them most of the day, it's hard to go a day. but ok.


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## voivod

i spoke with fred talisman tonite. google him, he's pretty good. anyway...he loaded me with two key questions:

what would need to be in place for feel good about moving forward together?

what would need to happen for us to do more and more things in a more committed manner?

he said there are phrases that have a negative connotation and you should avoid them...phrases that she has used in a negative way...she's giving signals...i'm fresh off the call and my mind is still boggled. but the not texting and calling, he was all for it. btw-she was on the phone to me first thing after work tonite...so, maybe...


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## draconis

It is always helpful to have many ways to takle a problem and many angles. Sometimes people can get you only so far before you need someone else to finish the job. Dr Rice did his part and got you and Beth this far. She was comfortable with him and agreed to go. Maybe this other guy can go the extra mile.

draconis


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## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> he was all for it. btw-she was on the phone to me first thing after work tonite...so, maybe...


You should establish a ratio: She calls you 3 times, you call her once. Not forever, but until it has worked it's magic. By the way, if it's any help, I am crap at this, but I know it works well with some men and women. But i would definitely do it if I were in your position, because trying harder is not working.

If you are nice and cheerful whenever she calls you, it will establish a connection in her mind - "whenever I phone voivod I have fun". So she will be dialing "F" for fun (or V for fun).

Once she starts chasing YOU, you can dictate terms. When you are the chaser, you can't dictate diddly squit!


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## brad

MarkTwain said:


> You should establish a ratio: She calls you 3 times, you call her once. Not forever, but until it has worked it's magic. By the way, if it's any help, I am crap at this, but I know it works well with some mean and women. But i would definitely do it if I were in your position, because trying harder is not working.
> 
> If you are nice and cheerful whenever she calls you, it will establish a connection in her mind - "whenever I phone voivod I have fun". So she will be dialing "F" for fun (or V for fun).
> 
> Once she starts chasing YOU, you can dictate terms. When you are the chaser, you can't dictate diddly squit!


Sage advice.


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## voivod

brad and mt-
i hope you get the chance to tell me someday "i told you so." it's too early to tell, but backing off seems to be paying off. i got invited to a movie tonite, we we're the proverbial "two peas in a pod" at the historical tour, she got a little snarly at my boy's football game, i blew that off and we had fabulous conversation with little touches and taps after the game.

i'm actually more relaxed playing this way than the other, always waiting for the payoff and if it didn't happen the waty i'd hoped, getting all bummed out.

i'm proceeding with caution, but backed off is my new stance. thanks guys, i think.


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## voivod

today was day one million of our separation. i don't feel that we're particulaly close to resolving any real issues, but the socializing has been great. lotsa touchy-feelie love-tap kinda stuff, lotsa eye comtact & smiles, even my oldest daughterm who had acted like the beaachy "protector" of mom is warming back up to me. yay!

although our little historical sunday drive was cut short due to an incredibly dusty washboard road, bethie asked if we could do it again next weekend with my trck rather than her van (cuz of the rough road). great idea! cuz my 11 yr old didn't get to go this week and she loves this stuff.

then she asked me to pick up a small dinner, we had that, then popcorn and 4 episodes of "get smart" from dvd.

i've asked the question everywhere, are these the actions of a wonan who doesn't want to be with me? what's the motivation?


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## brad

Doing these activities are her way of finding out how much your growing and wether she wants to be with you. That's why your actions and emotional state are so important. Who wants to hang with people who are anxious, repressive and "wanting" something from you.

Your asking Mt and I "I hope your right" about your new plan of action. Instead you should look at it as an eye opener for the new you. Look at improving yourself as a person and everything else will fall into place for you. Dont look at this merely as an action plan to win your wife back.

"the world is a mirror of your own inner state".


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## voivod

brad-
about the "wanting" part, she'd be oblivious if she didn't already know i'm doing some things because i want something from her. "the new me" (as you've referenced) is me WANTING her, right?
the sober, not needy, not anxious me is that guy who "wants" her back. she's not stupid, she knows that.


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## draconis

brad said:


> Your asking Mt and I "I hope your right" about your new plan of action. Instead you should look at it as an eye opener for the new you. Look at improving yourself as a person and everything else will fall into place for you. Dont look at this merely as an action plan to win your wife back.


This I really agree with. You need to work on improving yourself beyond the addictions and such to the point that you can stand on your own. That inner strength is important and signals that she can lean on you when things are down for her instead of her just being a crutch for you.

Beyond just getting her back this is the one time you can really do something for yourself.

draconis


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## voivod

ok, i agree too. it's just that i'm so looking for payoff to all my work. i know i'm improving myself, she knows i'm improving myself. but we're running the same cycle as we have since the separation. WE get together, DO something fun, KIDS join in, DAY turns to NIGHT, I go HOME.

i WANT to do something that will really make her sit up and realize "hey, this guy's going to the wall for me, i think the risk-reward plays in my favor."

i guess that's why i've been so willing to try something new. i want an advanced result. maybe my lack of patience, maybe the page i'm on now is potentially really scary.


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## draconis

Getting a result and showing herself and yourself that you can do it on your own is another.

draconis


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## voivod

drac- the reason i liked you from the get-go...yer a real straight shooter! amen


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## voivod

i read a lot of posts here. sometimes i feel like i'm conducting my own pity party because i seem to have it so good compared to others. i mean, i still have regular contact with my wife, she still IS my wife, and there's at least a hunt of things being ok. thanks to draconis, swedish, justean, brad, mark twain and the rest of you who are helping me keep my head above water. this is the most difficult thing i've ever dealt with, tougher than stroke rehab. i wish this on no one. i pray more deeply than ever, my anxiety level reaches high whenever there is a chance (perceived) that beth is in a bad mood. i'm never right about that, i wish i'd learn. anyway, best of luck to everyone here. thanks for being my port in a storm.


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## voivod

after being manic about this relationship for longer than i've been posting here, i've reached a new place. f-it. i love her, she loves me. hers is tough love, she's making me pay for being such a drip. God is showing her how to be strong, and she is. she was strong long before this. she's the strength that helped me survive a terrible stroke.

good news, i'm getting a little help from one of her co-workers to clarify for beth what is at stake here. i didn't ask for it, i think it's another of God's miracles. i'm gonna lay back a little, go back to work (pray for me, i need a job where i can tend to my children several hours a day. that's my committment, those kids) and continue honoring beth, serving the Lord and giving my all to this marriage. never give up, never quit trying. my concious endeavor is to heal this partnership, beth deserves the best me i can give her, the one i committed to her november 25th, 1994. i love you baby, and you know it.


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## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> my anxiety level reaches high whenever there is a chance (perceived) that beth is in a bad mood. i'm never right about that, i wish i'd learn.


You sound like you may be borderline OCD. Perhaps you need to do things that stimulate serotonin levels. I use "edging" for this, which is a form of masturbation where you try to stay on the edge of orgasm for 20-30 minutes. I hope that wasn't TMI! This is not orthodox stuff by the way, it's my own mad-cap concoction of a solution.


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## voivod

wha the hell????


----------



## Honey

voivod said:


> wha the hell????


Yeah, I know.. :scratchhead:.. so he can hold it. How is that helping you? :rofl:


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## MarkTwain

voivod-

I know, I know. 
It's crazy, but no less so than your signature:



> one day you will come to me and ask 'what is more important, me or your life' I'll say my life & you'll walk away never knowing you are my life



​


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## voivod

i'm gonna hafta lose that signature!


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## MarkTwain

Anyway, you might as well think "outside the box", because you have tried just about everything inside the box!


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## voivod

but mt, it realy seems like i'm making inroads, taking it slow, etc.


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## draconis

voivod said:


> but mt, it realy seems like i'm making inroads, taking it slow, etc.


It does sound like you are making slow progress.

draconis


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## voivod

drac- slow being the operative word? or progress being the operative?

thought i'd post some notes therapists/marriage counselor passed along to me:

You have had a tough year! Sounds like your wife has, too. And I am betting that this is really the root of the issue. I suspect that your wife is feeling very vulnerable and fearful. A stroke at your age is quite a wake-up call for all involved! Suddenly, mortality and the innate temporary nature of life is clearly in focus (I speak as someone who had a fairly scary health issue several years back).

I am guessing that the beer was quite a symbol for your wife. It showed her you would break a promise. It demonstrated she had no control over her world. It pointed out that you might even endanger yourself. That is a great deal of meaning, all packed into one can! 

So, if I am right, your wife retreated to protect herself. At the same time, as you tell the story, she has remained on the scene. That is not a separation in any sense, other than her defensive self-protection.

I would suggest that you work hard to continue demonstrating your sobriety. After a slip-up, it is twice as difficult to prove yourself trustworthy.

And I would recommend that you stop talking about your relationship outside of therapy. Instead, try to do what you did at least once: go to dinner together (not romantic, just time together), go get coffee, go to a bookstore together. In other words, relate. And work on it as a friendship. Nothing more. Over time, you will win back her trust, she will feel that her world is more stable, and your marriage can move forward. 

But don't get anxious, or you will drag anxiety into your relating, talk about your relationship, and begin to look for signs from her. Stay calm, be friendly, build connection. That is the prescription.


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## swedish

voivod said:


> But don't get anxious, or you will drag anxiety into your relating, talk about your relationship, and begin to look for signs from her. Stay calm, be friendly, build connection. That is the prescription.


From what you've shared with us to date I think this counselor made a great assessment of what is going on. 

A few things come to mind. If you are anxious, getting input on here, from friends, etc. will not always be consistent and may just be confusing to you and make you more anxious. Hearing different opinions isn't a bad thing if you can see new ideas or bits and pieces that you believe will be good ideas to try in your situation, but if it's just making you more anxious and confused it may not be serving the best purpose for you right now.

Here's what else comes to mind. Your wife came closer than most people do in a lifetime to being responsible for another's life. Your positive turn when she sat next to you in the hospital made that pretty clear. It was probably the most difficult time in her life, seeing you like that and not knowing whether you would make it & I'm sure all of her thoughts and energy were focused on your survival. To her your life is a precious gift and yes, the one can of beer probably told her you don't feel the same. She probably wants to you put the same value on your second lease at life as she did and is watching closely to see if you are doing that now.

I think being anxious and calling/texting her all the time is sending her a message that you are not at peace with yourself, by yourself. Again, it puts the pressure back on her that she is responsible for your happiness and well-being. I think her comment 'I'm not taking him back' is in a way, her way of testing you to see if even after hearing that straight from her if you will continue down the path of sobriety and working on yourself even if she's not promising you anything. That your life is worth it, all on its own.

If you can get to the point where you realize the value of your own life and how you impact others in a positive way (look at how you interact with your kids, what you teach them, etc.) and forget about who lives where right now but embrace the value you add just because of the person you are you might find the peace you are looking for that is causing you to feel so anxious. I don't think it's about Beth as much as it is about how you feel about yourself.


----------



## voivod

swedish,
i agree. in fact, i think i've known this all along. Beth really always has been the filter i've used to judge how i've felt about myself. she's been a powerful drug.

example: yesterday she called me at 4:17pm. she said "chris, where are we supposed to be right now?" i don't know. "we're supposed to be at dr. rice." well, actually, we were not as i had cancelled/fired dr. rice after the appointment last wednesday. many reasons, all justifiable.

BUT, little exchange made me feel GOOD. remember, she's the one that wasn't always 100% convinced a counselor was the way to go. when she flung her wedding ring at me she said "that's it!" she meant it. but her willingness to acknowledge that we were supposed to be there...felt good.

she did say "i didn't commit to every wednesday, i'm busy" (true, demanding job, she coaches two of my children's sports teams, etc) but her statement did take the commitment to counseling a little farther down the road...that felt good. i have an appt with a new counselor today. hope that one goes well.

thanks swedish, for your input. you know me, slllowww has been very difficult for me.


----------



## draconis

I think progress is the word. Every time you move forward it is a good thing. Just don't step back or try to jump ahead but as long as you are going forward it is where you need to be.

Take a job. Everyone wants to be a boss, but for most it is a long time to get to that ceo seat. But you work hard and can look at every "atta boy!", good review and promotion in a positive light.

draconis


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## voivod

progress is the word drac...

she asked me to call her on her work phone today. better than "don't call and don't text."

i think i told you already, but she came over last night to talk about her youth soccer league and some troubles she was having with parents. it was cool that shed take down the walls for that. i felt that she was letting me "in."

anyway, her take on counseling is better, did i mention that Beth reminded me of an appointment that we had? she did say "remember, i didn't commit to EVERY wednesday. i'm busy." and she is, but she's been accomodating to this point.

i'm interviewing a new counselor today. drac, i'll pm you the details on why i fired dr. rice.

my 10 yr old's birthday today. happy birthday Molly Mouse! pray for a miracle daddy! she reminds me every day


----------



## draconis

You have let me in on a lot of what has happened with Dr Rice and I can see why you fired him. As I told you through pms it took me years and firing many doctors before I found one willing to look at my MD as I did. Something that could be overcome even if not conquered. For you a councilor needs to be there to help you in the direction you want to go in, not play arm chair quarterback.

I think that it is a positive sign that she wtill comes to you with her issues and talks to you. It also seems to show that your communication skills and listening skill are improving too.

draconis


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## voivod

yep, and you know what, the 5 love languages made it clear to me that quality time followed by words of affirmation are her two love languages. got a chance to make two deposits in the love bank with one moment of conversation. god, i hope this stuff is real!


----------



## voivod

oldest daughter got her drivers license suspended. beth called me for advice on that, she called for advice on her soccer problem. i took time and listened, rather than just GIVE advice. i've read that if she's asking for advice, maybe things are making a turn. i hope so.


----------



## husbandinthemking

voivod said:


> oldest daughter got her drivers license suspended. beth called me for advice on that, she called for advice on her soccer problem. i took time and listened, rather than just GIVE advice. i've read that if she's asking for advice, maybe things are making a turn. i hope so.


Yes. This is true. Her asking your opinion means she is seeing value in you. Now is the time to keep listening to her. Just because she asks you to help, doesn't mean she wants an opinion. Be careful here. Just listen and ask her what she thinks. The I would say something like, "You know... I think that is a great idea." Sounds like you are on the right path! :smthumbup:


----------



## voivod

complete surprise tonight, had unplanned dinner at beth's place and watched the love guru..a michael myers film. great time. beth seemed so comfortable. me too.


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## voivod

ok, i'm coming down off a Beth buzz. i just got back "home" after spending the afternoon/evening with her. we went and picked out a kitty from the humane society for my little beautiful ten yr old daughter, brought it back to her place, she asked me to go pick up a b-day present for one of daughter's friends and some dinner, we ate together and watched The Love GURU on dvd. things are going so well. if we we're dating for the first time right now, i'd have no problem taking this to the next level.

unfortunately, my situation dictates i take it nice and easy this time. make sure i've done as much right as i can. my daughter texted me and told me her birtyhday wish was to have mommoy and daddy living together again. you'd think mom would pick up on the vibe, but who knows. another day, another good day. tommorrow should be fun. my sons football team plays, my 10 yr old daughter's soccer team, my 11 yr old plays, and mom coaches two of the teams.

then sunday it's an all day trip into the back country to a historic ghost town.

i can't wait.


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## draconis

> my sons football team plays


isn't he five years old?

draconis


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## voivod

yes. i'm gonna send you pics, it's flag football, and beth coaches. ain't she cool!


----------



## draconis

lol..sounds cute.

draconis


----------



## husbandinthemking

voivod said:


> ok, i'm coming down off a Beth buzz. i just got back "home" after spending the afternoon/evening with her. we went and picked out a kitty from the humane society for my little beautiful ten yr old daughter, brought it back to her place, she asked me to go pick up a b-day present for one of daughter's friends and some dinner, we ate together and watched The Love GURU on dvd. things are going so well. if we we're dating for the first time right now, i'd have no problem taking this to the next level.
> 
> unfortunately, my situation dictates i take it nice and easy this time. make sure i've done as much right as i can. my daughter texted me and told me her birtyhday wish was to have mommoy and daddy living together again. you'd think mom would pick up on the vibe, but who knows. another day, another good day. tommorrow should be fun. my sons football team plays, my 10 yr old daughter's soccer team, my 11 yr old plays, and mom coaches two of the teams.
> 
> then sunday it's an all day trip into the back country to a historic ghost town.
> 
> i can't wait.


That is a very possible birthday wish. Keep that in mind.

You have to understand here, you wife feels like the victim here. Yes. She is hurt and needs help. A birthday wish to her is sweet, but will not happen until SHE feels good about you again.

I have an idea, treat your wife like she has been though a major trama in her life and needs your support more than ever. Seriously. Help her out. Listen to her and act on her wishes and I guarantee you, she will come back around.

You are doing rather well here. Just keep up repairing the relationship like you are doing. Eventually, she will come around even more.

I make it a daily goal to make my wife as happy as I possibly can. That doesnt mean saying "I love you" every 5 seconds either. Once you learn waht to do, just keep at it.

I find it funny when some people say, "That is wrong! Why should I bend over backwards when she won't do anything?!?! She needs to change, not me! Why should I?" 
I'll tell you why... Because they are not willing to change. The point is, it is going to take SOMEONE to repair the relationship. Why does it matter who it is? Pride? Ego? Awwww... Poor baby... they hurt your itsy-bitsy feelings??? Own up to it and fix it. Take the blame. So what. You get your relationship and family back, right?

Remember, no matter waht she says, always remain positive and upbeat with her. She will be extremely happy with you if you acknowledge her feelings like this.

All the best to you and your family.


----------



## voivod

husband,
you say very possible. you're a guy who has been to the brink. hopefully you've read my posts. tell me, from a guy who has been there. what am i doing wrong/right/what could i be doing more or less of. i wanna get this right.

update: kids sports day was a bit frustrating for mom. my son does not act appropriate (says mom) on the field. cries when someone takes his flag (flag football) and she said something today about taking him to the doc and referenced ritalin. lucky for me, one of the soccer parents was there and said "nooo, you don't wanna do that." i should step up and call BS on the whole ritalin thing, but i'm so passive now because of the separation, i'm afraid to upset her.

then she started going off about my 11 yr old daughter's coach and what a self-serving prick he is. true, but not appropriate to say at the game on the sidelines. i'm convinced she does not care about the consequences of her words/actions. and...i'm no psychologist, but i think she's flexing her muscles a little with her newly-gotten freedom. she later on mentioned that her crankiness was bothering her. i asked if it was biological. ;-}

BUT..the day finished up nicely. she invited me in for dinner, so i picked up a little take & bake dessert. then she said something about wanting me to get a movie, so i did, we watched, then i went home. slow, steady. even when i don't feel progress, we aren't regressing.


----------



## voivod

i'm tired...real tired. for those of you who've been here with me from the beginning, you know how much i'm trying. my heart really is in this. i want this marriage to work. but i am finding myself getting real tired. i don't want to give up, i really don't. but this seems to be going on and on and on...

i'm doing the chapman "honor her" thing, everything seems to be heading the right direction, but how long do i have to endure the pain of uncertainty?


----------



## draconis

voivod said:


> i'm tired...real tired. for those of you who've been here with me from the beginning, you know how much i'm trying. my heart really is in this. i want this marriage to work. but i am finding myself getting real tired. i don't want to give up, i really don't. but this seems to be going on and on and on...
> 
> i'm doing the chapman "honor her" thing, everything seems to be heading the right direction, but how long do i have to endure the pain of uncertainty?


I think you are finally where you need to be...let me explain.

Empathy ~ This is exactly how beth felt and still feels about you drinking. She was tired to, but she has stuck around still for you, hasn't she. Do you think she is certain you have changed, gave up drinking etc. ?

Time ~ I told you from the onset that these things (those emotions called trust) normally take a year to build up. She still needs to build on this.

Evaluate ~ Is it really that bad? You might not have her in the win section right now, but isn't your relationship better then it has been in years? Much better for her I would say and she might just be afriad to lose this new you she has fallen in love with all over again.

Foward ~ Look at the progress you make and have made. Not only in the relationship but in yourself. [As a long distant runner in my youth (yes irony) I counted each step, each stride as a means to the end. Training paying off. Each inch brings you closer even if in a marathon you have to walk or crawl to cross that line.]

Independence ~ The one thing you still lack (sorry). You judge yourself based on how your relationship with Beth is. You need to be strong for you first BEFORE you can be strong for her. She needs that from you.

draconis


----------



## NikiVicious

As time goes on, and the longer it does, it will show her just what direction you are taking. In other words...ALLOW trust to rebuild, you are activly persuing her heart. From what you write, she LOVES you and knows you pretty damn good. I know this is pain steaking. But if she is inviting you for dinner, and Sunday drives, her heart is still in it. She could give you the cold shoulder. 

I think she sees how much effort you are putting into yourself and your self improvement. Once trust is lost (and it was when you relapsed). Its just a matter of time before she can really 'trust' you again. I know you feel as though its killing you. But look at like: you will be STONGER from it. your marriage will be STRONGER from it too (in time!) Your endurance and perseverence and longevity are steadily strengthening you! 

Keep doing the chapman thing.


----------



## husbandinthemking

NikiVicious said:


> As time goes on, and the longer it does, it will show her just what direction you are taking. In other words...ALLOW trust to rebuild, you are activly persuing her heart. From what you write, she LOVES you and knows you pretty damn good. I know this is pain steaking. But if she is inviting you for dinner, and Sunday drives, her heart is still in it. She could give you the cold shoulder.
> 
> I think she sees how much effort you are putting into yourself and your self improvement. Once trust is lost (and it was when you relapsed). Its just a matter of time before she can really 'trust' you again. I know you feel as though its killing you. But look at like: you will be STONGER from it. your marriage will be STRONGER from it too (in time!) Your endurance and perseverence and longevity are steadily strengthening you!
> 
> Keep doing the chapman thing.


Ahhhh... Truer words were never spoken. 

She needs to trust that you will not hurt her emotionally again. So true. This took me about 2-3 months. But it paid off bigtime.

You look more and more attractive to her as you improve yourself. Hell, I would even say somthing like, "I want to thank you." She'll ask, "For what?". I would respond, "Because now I can see what I need to do to improve myself. In a weird way, this has helped me grow as a person. Seriously... thank you." This will help her get rid of her guilt she feels quicker than normal. 

Did I mention my wife and I are going on a week cruise?


----------



## voivod

drac-

you said:
>>>>Evaluate ~ Is it really that bad? You might not have her in the win section right now, but isn't your relationship better then it has been in years?<<<<

yes, it is better than it's been in years, if i could only hear those words from her mouth.

and:
>>>>Much better for her I would say and she might just be afriad to lose this new you she has fallen in love with all over again.<<<<

ok, but she knows by now i am not going anywhere.

sleep is the only time my mind turns off. other than that i fret about it all the time.

niki-
you say:
>>>>ALLOW trust to rebuild, you are activly persuing her heart. From what you write, she LOVES you and knows you pretty damn good.<<<<

again, to hear those words from her would mean so much

and:

>>>>I know this is pain steaking. But if she is inviting you for dinner, and Sunday drives, her heart is still in it. She could give you the cold shoulder<<<<

yeah, i do think about that, the cold shoulder. she DOES still allow me close. watching movies on her tv, fixing me dinner in her house, having nice comfortable conversation, asking me advice about her troubles. it all makes me feel like there is a chance.

thanks y'all

OH YEAH...HUSBAND/KING

PLEASE give me insight into zaxxes. i am curious/interested.


----------



## husbandinthemking

> yeah, i do think about that, the cold shoulder. she DOES still allow me close. watching movies on her tv, fixing me dinner in her house, having nice comfortable conversation, asking me advice about her troubles. it all makes me feel like there is a chance.


Keep in mind, when she asks you for advice about her troubles, she just wants you to listen. DO NOT try and help her.

Example:

"Hey, the other day I blah, blah, blah. What would you do if you were me?" - Wife

"Hmmm. Great question... I am not sure. What do you think you should do?" - Reponse

Another question, do you compliment her when you see her? 

Like, "That's a nice dress. Is it new?" or "Did you do something different with your hair? It looks nice today."

These are basic things that need to be said on a daily basis.(Zaxxes speaks of this)

As for zaxxes.com, like I said, it saved my marriage. I followed the guide and learned from my mistakes. I used to be pushy, needy, etc. Now, I get an opinion from my wife on most things(money spending, dinner plans, etc.), but make the final decision on most things. I keep my wife happy, which in turn, makes me happy. 

I never cared to ask her how she felt, etc. It was my way or the highway. I was pretty naive. Marriage is the least selfish you can do. I was not aware of this until I learned that.


----------



## voivod

Keep in mind, when she asks you for advice about her troubles, she just wants you to listen. DO NOT try and help her.

Example:

husband/king:

you said:

>>>>Keep in mind, when she asks you for advice about her troubles, she just wants you to listen. DO NOT try and help her.


"Hey, the other day I blah, blah, blah. What would you do if you were me?" - Wife

"Hmmm. Great question... I am not sure. What do you think you should do?" - Reponse<<<<

funny, dumb luck, that's how i handled it!

and

>>>>I used to be pushy, needy, etc.<<<

me too!

zaxxes.com the web doesn't give much info. i'm embarrassed to say i've spent a few dollars on "save your marriage" stuff. i just don't wanna be throwing good money after bad.


----------



## voivod

king...

haha, the phone just rang, it was my wife...

she wanted to know if she was too hard on my 5 yr old son last night for some disciplinary issue..."not sure honey, what do you think?"


----------



## husbandinthemking

voivod said:


> king...
> 
> haha, the phone just rang, it was my wife...
> 
> she wanted to know if she was too hard on my 5 yr old son last night for some disciplinary issue..."not sure honey, what do you think?"


Bingo. You got it man! Nice! :smthumbup:

She is loving that you are asking her opinion about what she thinks. It shows you care about her feelings. This is awesome news!


----------



## husbandinthemking

voivod said:


> Keep in mind, when she asks you for advice about her troubles, she just wants you to listen. DO NOT try and help her.
> 
> Example:
> 
> husband/king:
> 
> you said:
> 
> >>>>Keep in mind, when she asks you for advice about her troubles, she just wants you to listen. DO NOT try and help her.
> 
> 
> "Hey, the other day I blah, blah, blah. What would you do if you were me?" - Wife
> 
> "Hmmm. Great question... I am not sure. What do you think you should do?" - Reponse<<<<
> 
> funny, dumb luck, that's how i handled it!
> 
> and
> 
> >>>>I used to be pushy, needy, etc.<<<
> 
> me too!
> 
> zaxxes.com the web doesn't give much info. i'm embarrassed to say i've spent a few dollars on "save your marriage" stuff. i just don't wanna be throwing good money after bad.


I believe Save Your Marriage has the same type info. you should be ok with that one for now. 

I think you are on the right trak my friend! Keep up the positive responses!

Now remember, it doesn't happen over night. Let her call the shots for awhile. I guarantee you she is seeing the positive changes in you. 

Also, she could slip a negative in there from time to time. Dont let it get to you! Keep in mind she is testing to see if you are being trust worthy. Keep it up!


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## voivod

whew. this just seems like a [email protected]$$ road.


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## husbandinthemking

voivod said:


> whew. this just seems like a [email protected]$$ road.


It is only long if you make it out to be that way.

Try and look at this like a challenge. 

My daily challenge is to see how happy I can make my wife. Not by telling her "I love you" and million times, but by listening and acknowledging her feelings.


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## voivod

a pretty well-respected marriage counselor tells me this:

>>>So, if I am right, your wife retreated to protect herself. At the same time, as, she has remained on the scene. That is not a separation in any sense, other than her defensive self-protection<<<

ok, y'all, does this make sense or what?


----------



## draconis

voivod said:


> a pretty well-respected marriage counselor tells me this:
> 
> >>>So, if I am right, your wife retreated to protect herself. At the same time, as, she has remained on the scene. That is not a separation in any sense, other than her defensive self-protection<<<
> 
> ok, y'all, does this make sense or what?


I think it does with one exception. She is protecting herself while she evaluates the situation.

draconis


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## voivod

drac-

"separated" is a term she needs for her self-defense mechanism, i think.

i agree with your response, but her ability to evaluate is hindered by her own biases. just because she has seen me revert back or not fulfill a promised doesn't mean i'm gonna break a promise again. know what i'm saying?


----------



## husbandinthemking

draconis said:


> I think it does with one exception. She is protecting herself while she evaluates the situation.
> 
> draconis


Exactly. 

She is hoping not all is lost right now. She wants to see you care about her feelings and her needs. If you show her this, she will come back to you emotionally.

Again, DONT TRY AND FIX HER! She is not broken! Just listen to her and encourage her.


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## voivod

i'm not trying to fix her. i know she's not broken. i can't f-ing take this anymore. she wins, f it. whatever she wants. that's where i'm at.

i've had such a rough last 24 hours. i don't know why. if she loves me, quit this crap. i'll do whatever is necessary! (yes, i've told her that.)

i haven't done nearly as bad of s#!T as guys on here and i'm getting the roughest ride of all. is anybody going through this emotional beating as i am. dammit, i'm breaking...


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## NikiVicious

Breaking is a verb, Voi. 

sometimes it isn't as easy as choosing to feel or not to feel.


----------



## voivod

niki,
you got that right!


----------



## draconis

voivod said:


> i'm not trying to fix her. i know she's not broken. i can't f-ing take this anymore. she wins, f it. whatever she wants. that's where i'm at.
> 
> i've had such a rough last 24 hours. i don't know why. if she loves me, quit this crap. i'll do whatever is necessary! (yes, i've told her that.)
> 
> i haven't done nearly as bad of s#!T as guys on here and i'm getting the roughest ride of all. is anybody going through this emotional beating as i am. dammit, i'm breaking...


You have PM'd me so many times about how much you love her and how she is worth anything. That being the case ride the storm.

draconis


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## voivod

drac-
ok buddy. i ran out of cymbalta today. kinda rough.


----------



## draconis

cymbalta ~ don't know that word.

Just remember tomorow is another day.

draconis


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## voivod

cymbalta-anti-depression presciption.

tomorrow...yeah...


----------



## husbandinthemking

voivod said:


> cymbalta-anti-depression presciption.
> 
> tomorrow...yeah...


Like I said earlier, this will not be easy.

I had to learn to shut my feelings off for a bit. How did I do this? You need to say to yourself every day that your marriage is worth it. Try not to lose sight of this. It is important that you remain strong.

Couple things I did that help me stay focused:

1) Excercise: I can't stress this enough. Excercise alleviates depression. Want to feel good inside? Workout, walk, run, etc. She will do backflips emotionally if she sees that you are doing this.

2) Eat Healthier: Drop the soda and cupcakes. Eat fruits, veggies, etc. I dropped 25 pounds doing this and I look and feel great.

3) Love Yourself: Stop beating yourself up! Learn from your mistakes and vow to making improvements. Jus move on emotionally. Do not harbor these feelings. They are distructive and will do you no good.

4) Be Positive/Confident: Think, act, and be positive in everything you do. Force yourself to think in this manner. Do not listen to sad songs!("All by myself" is a no-no!!!) Listen to upbeat tunes. Trust me... it pays off bigtime.

5) No Drugs/Alcohol: This will de-rail your emotions faster than lightning. You need to be clear headed in case she calls you.

Don't let her see you sad, depressed, needy, etc. If you need more info on this, check out zaxxes.com or Stop Your Divorce.


----------



## 827Aug

voivod said:


> is anybody going through this emotional beating as i am. dammit, i'm breaking...


Yes, unfortunately, you've got plenty of company on here! Hang in there and take one day at a time.  There are many days I question why I continue to love a person who doesn't even know if he wants to save the marriage. However, he says there is always hope (although his actions sometimes speak differently). In addition, he hasn't filed for divorce yet. Therefore, I still remain hopeful....and many days I, too, feel emotionally beat up over the entire situation. Hang in there!


----------



## voivod

h-king

points 3 and 4 the most difficult...

my marriage IS worth it, man, i'm trying.

i never let her see me sad. that's the way i've been since the day of the separation.

draconis...

i'm riding the storm. if i would've known how rough it would have been...she IS worth it though...every day my name DOESN'T show up in legal notices though is a good day...

827...

are we just doomed to live on the edge like this? i'm doing everything i can, all while trying to make it look like i'm trying to do everything i can...THAT is exhausting...but you're right, she hasn'y filed, AND she still sees me. THAT'S a good day...

i got a text from my 11 year old that said "dad don't give up, mom needs to know you're changed..."

howe can i quit with that on my side???


----------



## voivod

ok h-king...

using the zaxxes guide...

wife calls asks me to pick up prescription for her...

caller id, should i answer the phone???

how about "date" stuff? weekend picnics, drives in the country, stuff i've already been doing with her???

i have no problem doing it, but you've had success...what do you think?


----------



## draconis

I have said before, and here again. This is a matter of trust plain and simple. It will take time. It may take up to a year to get back to normal.

draconis


----------



## voivod

draconis,
i know man. it just seems that every day that goes by is one less in my life with her. when you're as close to the end as i've been, those days are precious.


----------



## draconis

Make everyday count from here on thru your life. Your love you share with her is holding her here. I do mean SHARE too. 

You are lucky so many times over. You have the love of a great woman for many years. She saved your life. She is giving you another chance.

We can not tell people how to act or feel. She needs time to heal to but in a differnt way than you do. She went emotionally bankrupt helping you. She needs to feel secure now. I believe that time will come.

Just not today.

draconis


----------



## voivod

ok buddy,
sometimes i just get angry, sometimes depressed, i'm hitting a low right now. i had a sweet woman relate a story of her alcoholic husband who died of cirrhosis that was so sad..anyway the point to her story was exactly your point...from this point on...

i shed a tear reading your words of wisdom.

thank you draconis...that's been a theme on this forum somewhere recently. hmmm. i wonder why ;-)


----------



## husbandinthemking

voivod said:


> ok h-king...
> 
> using the zaxxes guide...
> 
> wife calls asks me to pick up prescription for her...
> 
> caller id, should i answer the phone???
> 
> how about "date" stuff? weekend picnics, drives in the country, stuff i've already been doing with her???
> 
> i have no problem doing it, but you've had success...what do you think?


Absolutely. The goal is to get back into her life if she needs you there. It is not YOU wanting to be there that counts for her right now. She will eventually see your side in time. Like I said, you need to be patient. It DOES pay off.

You want to "date" her only after you see a positive change in her. I would ask her for a "date". do not expect one.

"Date" ideas are numerous. Things she may like could be candlelight dinner with soft music(do not expect sex!), movies and a drink afterward(no alcohol though! stay focused on your game!), etc. Another thing to remember is, weird things that happen are remembered when going out. (I dont know how many times my wife and I would talk about weird things that happened while dating. "Remember that guy that tripped into that street sign the other night?" Great ways to start a conversation.)

For "dates", you need to stare into her eyes and listen. Only look away after she does. That shows her love from you. 

Just do not offer advice to her. She just wants you to listen. You should acknowledge her as she speaks with you by saying things like, "Oh really?" or "Wow." or "I see...". Compliment her is suttle ways. "Your hair looks nice today. Did you do something different?", etc.

And remember, do not say "I love you" yet.

Also, girls need an emotional connection while guys want the physical. Do not look for the physical side from her. This will be least on her mind right now. Fill her cup emotionally over time, and she will be physical again as well.

And, it is ok to mess up once in a while. If you do mess up, apologize to her. If you hug her and she looks at you weird afterward. You could say, "I'm sorry. Was that wrong?" She will love this if you ask about her feelings in this manner.


----------



## voivod

h-king, drac---
my therapist says dates are, and should be at this point, anything from dinner & movie to sunday drives. anything to help the connection. what do you think about that?


----------



## voivod

major drama,

my mother, who beth has drawn close to over the years, just went to the emergency room due to some issue with her heart. beth the caretaker is taking over. she feels obligated to leave her work and spend time with my mom. i think it's not a good idea. she's given all she can give. how should i tell beth to relax and back off, i'll take care of it???


----------



## draconis

voivod said:


> major drama,
> 
> my mother, who beth has drawn close to over the years, just went to the emergency room due to some issue with her heart. beth the caretaker is taking over. she feels obligated to leave her work and spend time with my mom. i think it's not a good idea. she's given all she can give. how should i tell beth to relax and back off, i'll take care of it???



DON'T

That is telling her not to care or that she shouldn't care about someone she obviously loves.

If you went to the aid of her in the hospital and her mother told you she'd take care of it how would you feel?

draconis


----------



## husbandinthemking

voivod said:


> major drama,
> 
> my mother, who beth has drawn close to over the years, just went to the emergency room due to some issue with her heart. beth the caretaker is taking over. she feels obligated to leave her work and spend time with my mom. i think it's not a good idea. she's given all she can give. how should i tell beth to relax and back off, i'll take care of it???


Dude. DO NOT do that. Drac is right. You will kill all that you have worked for. You should be supporting her through EVERYTHING she caes about.

You really need to listen to her and start focusing on her feelings at all times. She told you that she wants to do this. Why would you stop her when this is what she wants? Let her control things for awhile, remember?


----------



## voivod

drac and h-king
thanks. seems you, once again, are correct.

drac-
just got back from first session with the new counselor. individual session this time. i can't believe how wrapped up i am in this relationship. there is not much that i derive enjoyment from that doesn't include my wife. AND THAT'S BAD!?!? my goal for the next week is to list three to five things i'm grateful for...i don't think that list can be made without including her. therapist said "that's ok." i think i'm gonna like her.


----------



## NikiVicious

Ok, this is a total metaphore, but beth is the glue that holds your family together. You can help by being the reinforcement to that glue, and ultimately give her strength to keep going. I don't know her needs, so I don't know specifics. But I do know that one way of being a reinforcement is by KEEPING TRUSTWORTHY, which is what you are working on now, correct?

She may love being the caretaker, nurturer, etc. Do you think she does? How can you help?


----------



## voivod

yeah niki,
she was referred to as a "supercaretaker" in my individual session yesterday. does she love that role? i think she does until it overwhelms her, then she resents it or falls back into a victimhood blaming role as in "poor me." that's the way it was explained yesterday.


----------



## draconis

voivod said:


> yeah niki,
> she was referred to as a "supercaretaker" in my individual session yesterday. does she love that role? i think she does until it overwhelms her, then she resents it or falls back into a victimhood blaming role as in "poor me." that's the way it was explained yesterday.



That isn't to uncommon. She does it because it makes her feel needed and when she can't handle everything she is resentful more at herself but because others are not doing the same for her.

draconis


----------



## voivod

but she NEVER communicates that she'd like some help until it's blow-up time. she could communicate a whole lot better, rather than blame someone else.


----------



## draconis

voivod said:


> but she NEVER communicates that she'd like some help until it's blow-up time. she could communicate a whole lot better, rather than blame someone else.


Communication is a two way street. I am sure she would say, when did you ask?

draconis


----------



## voivod

y'know drac--

stupid as it sounds, i've never been much of a communicator either. i worked 20 yrs in the communication industry, and we're the worst. so i'll take some of the burden on this one.


----------



## draconis

Tommy Shaw - The Weight Of The World

You've got the weight of the world 
On your shoulders tonight 
But somewhere there's a light 
It's just the way that you feel 

In the eyes of the world 
So much colder tonight 
It's feeding on your pride 
It's just the way that you feel 

Don't go 
Don't you know I'm on your side 
Baby don't go 
Don't go, don't go, don't go 

If the weight of the world 
Is too much for you now 
You've got to turn it round somehow 
Change the way that you feel 

If you wait for the world 
To give you what you need 
It's gonna bring you to your knees again 

So baby don't go 
Don't you know I'm on your side 
Don't let yourself go 
Don't go, don't go, don't go 

There has to be another way 
No don't go 
You've got to turn around and stay 

You've got the weight of the world 
On your shoulders tonight 
But somewhere there's a light 
It's just the way that you feel 

In the eyes of the world 
So much colder tonight 
It's feeding on your pride 
It's just the way that you feel 

So baby don't go 
Don't you see I'm on your side 
Don't let yourself go 
Don't go, don't go, don't go 

Don't you wait until your strength is gone 
I'll give you something worth holding on to 
Not the weight 
The weight of the world 

(The Weight Of The World) Don't believe in your foolish pride 
(The Weight Of The World) Take a look at how you feel inside 
(The Weight Of The World) And give it up 
(The Weight Of The World) The Weight Of The World 

(The Weight Of The World) 
(The Weight Of The World) It's gonna be alright 
(The Weight Of The World) 
(The Weight Of The World) 

(The Weight Of The World)You're saying how your friends are gone 
(The Weight Of The World)Baby are they holding on 
(The Weight Of The World)To the weight 
(The Weight Of The World)Oh the weight of the world 

(The Weight Of The World) 
(The Weight Of The World) 
(The Weight Of The World)


----------



## draconis

A winner is a loser who was willing to fail and get up, fail and get up, fail and get up, fail and get up and win - Peter Zafra

Don't Wait For Heroes
Written by Dennis DeYoung
Lead Vocals by Dennis DeYoung

I've got my dreams
I know you think that's craxy
But I won't give up
'Cause I've got this burning desire in me
Oh baby it's me

While the world sleeps
I sit up all night thinking
And making my plans
'Cause there's somthing special ahead for me
Something ahead for me

So don't you tell me that I'm wasting my time, running my life
And that the odds against me are a million-to-one, don't be concerned
I'll take the heat for all the chances I'm gonna take
Mistakes that I'll make
Wait and see
You're gonna hear from me

So don't wait for heroes, do it yourself
You've got the power
Winners are losers
Who got up and gave it just one more try
One more try...One mor try

If you're waiting for that miracle train to call out your name
And if you think the rainbow always finds someone else, never yourself
Just look inside and find that spark that's burning in you
Follow it through
The light you find
Well, it could change your life

So don't wait for heroes
Think for yourself
Make your own choices
You know it's easy
To follow the crowd
But my advice is
Don't wait for heroes
Believe in yourself
You've got the power
Winners are losers
Who got up and gave it just one more try


----------



## voivod

Just look inside and find that spark that's burning in you
Follow it through
The light you find
Well, it could change your life

yep. i get it. thanks.

ps--pretty good night tonight. we had dinner, i went home early. beth was dressed in a slik nighty that i bought her a couple of years ago. have i told you how gorgeous she is? anyway, she looked great. i was wearing a pair of jeans that i wore when wee first met (tremendous weight loss) and joey said something about daddy not being so fat anymore. mom said "no, he's NOT." so she's noticing. anyway, i saw a copy of "the love dare" sitting on her desk on the way out. god i hope she reads it!


----------



## draconis

voivod said:


> anyway, i saw a copy of "the love dare" sitting on her desk on the way out. god i hope she reads it!


If she hasn't she will.

draconis


----------



## voivod

drac--
she's reading the book, she's taking the steps, she's on chapter one. i know this because i read the book. it's obvious. i'm going over there tonight to cook with her. one of her specialties. wish me luck man!


----------



## draconis

I wish you the best of luck.

draconis


----------



## Blanca

voivod said:


> drac--
> she's reading the book, she's taking the steps, she's on chapter one. i know this because i read the book. it's obvious. i'm going over there tonight to cook with her. one of her specialties. wish me luck man!


Ahhhh how sweet


----------



## voivod

mommy22 said:


> Okay. I feel like I'm reading a novel now. I can't wait to hear what happens! Let us know, okay?
> 
> (I've gotta go see that movie (Fireproof). I've heard so many of you refer to it. You have definitely spurred my curiosity.).


ok...first...go to the off topic thread, see the trailer for the movie. if that doesn't make ya feel it a little, check your pulse...i still haven't seen the movie, although a church here locally apparently showed it...

now, the novel...it's definitely a chapter book...

went over, brought ingredients for dinner...mexican, pretty easy stuff...nachos and taquitos...beth is the oven expert...she asked me to bring coors light...DON'T FREAK my sobriety streak is still intact...but...

i have made my peace with God...he knows i'm never going to drink again...He has removed from me any semblance of desire to have one...and i don't think beth should have to take my vow of sobriety...some in AA disagree...i'm ok with her living her life...if she wants a beer, that's ok with God...it's definitely ok with me...and she doesn't need my permission to have a beer while we watch football...

so...we ate and watched our beloved boise state broncos manhandle souther mississippi...sat next to each other on the sofa...i felt so close...more than in awhile...looked into her eyes while she told me about a girl at her work that just had a stroke...i saw the sparkle that someone here told me about...we sat and *****ed about the poor refereeing in the game...same as we ever did...my 16 yr old daughter and i had fun conversation, which has been rare until recently (she's mom's protector, i've had that dynamic explained to me already, i'm ok with it) my 11 year old sat at the right of me and i cuddled her like she was a baby again...we talked about how close mom was to outguessing the doctors as to the due date for all of our children...i got my 5 yr old boy to give me an autograph...he's a flag football star (in dad's eyes anyway)...played with the kitty "Ronaldo" (molly 10yr old named him after the greatest soccer player in the world--manchester united's Christiano Ronaldo) then the kids went to bed and mom and dad sat awkwardly watching tv and got tired...mom said she wanted to read (love dare...plllleeeease) and go to bed...so i left...careful NOT to say "i love you" although i wanted to badly but it's too soon...she knows...i gave her flowers and a congrats singing card for getting into nursing school...i let her go to bed, i left...

have i said lately that i'm falling in love all over again? got to my truck and cried tears of joy...twas a good night...


----------



## draconis

I am glad to hear it. It sounds like you have come a long way and maybe Beth needs to book to meet you in the middle. I am glad she got it. I am glad she is reading it.

It is wonderful that you are even better connected with your kids too.

I feel like crying now.

draconis


----------



## voivod

today is going to be hard. after being so close last night, i think we aren't going to spend any time together today. my 11 year old is sick, and beth says she wants to spend the day relaxing at home.

i set myself up to feel this way. rather than look at last night like a gift, i feel like i've earned the right to get some time together today. i want to continue the feeling. but it's not what i want that's important. i want this nightmare to be over.


----------



## draconis

voivod said:


> today is going to be hard. after being so close last night, i think we aren't going to spend any time together today. my 11 year old is sick, and beth says she wants to spend the day relaxing at home.
> 
> i set myself up to feel this way. rather than look at last night like a gift, i feel like i've earned the right to get some time together today. i want to continue the feeling. but it's not what i want that's important. i want this nightmare to be over.


This is another good step. Give her the time she needs. If you call talk to you little girl and wish her well.

Your wife needs to know you understand her needs.

draconis


----------



## voivod

ok, so other than calling my daughter, no calls, don't try to contact? because we did talk about watching a movie today...

drac--you see where i'm at man? she is taking the time to spend time with me. this is where we were 20 years ago. i know she loves me. i can feel it. why the hell isn't she giving me more???


----------



## draconis

If she needs space give it to her so she can undestand that you understand all aspects. If she needs time to rest give it to her. If she wants you to be there, than get there. Don't push the boundries.

draconis


----------



## draconis

voivod said:


> . my 11 year old is sick, and beth says she wants to spend the day relaxing at home.
> .


It is okay to talk to the wife but keep it short if you talk with her. Know when to let things go. I am sure your 11 year old wants to here from you. Let Beth rest.

draconis


----------



## voivod

the more time passes today, the more i become ok with just letting go...no, not letting go of the relationship...letting her have space...let her rest makes sense. you know, me occupying her space when she wants it doesn't make us closer...i think the more i realize that, the more i'm ok...

but it's funny drac-- when the shoe was on the other foot all those years ago, she was ALWAYS pursuing, in MY space, she really pushed to make this relationship happen. i look back, and i LOVED that about her..she really WANTED me...sorry, can't wish for the past anymore, can i?


----------



## voivod

okay...enough with the "space" thing...it makes more sense all the time...like when beth just called and said she was getting stuff out of my house...lawnmower, weedeater, etc. she said "you know, stuff WE'D need down the road." i've said it before...she chooses her words carefully...she knows what she said...and she had a big ol' smile on her face when i waved goodbye as she drove off...the smile i remember so well, the one i fell in love with...her EYES literally smile...


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod-

I really feel you're so close now to getting her back. The best thing you could do is develop a few outside interests to take your mind of her. When she can feel that you are not thinking about her all day long, she will want you back.


----------



## voivod

mt-
good...cause she just came by and i was outside playing basketball..."strokey basketball" ( i had a stroke in january, so i'm still a little limpy...f- it...i can get around well enough to play!) and i NEVER played basketball before...she seemed impressed by that...big smile when i told her the little kid who was playing ran circles around me...

then, she called me from the library 10 minutes later and asked me to "pick up some diet pop for her" and bring it by later...she knows what she's doing...


----------



## draconis

Maybe she thought better of her choice. Maybe she wanted to see if you could handle a day away. Who cares you get to see her again.

draconis


----------



## voivod

draconis said:


> Maybe she thought better of her choice. Maybe she wanted to see if you could handle a day away. Who cares you get to see her again.
> 
> draconis


y'nailed it draconis...just got home from "picking up diet pop" and bringing it to her. two plus hours of conversation and smiles. she is smiling back at me and this really feels good. things are really feeling like they are looking up. thanks for your prayers...you know i'm doing the work.

NOTE: woke up today feeling better than i have in a long time!


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod-

Just looking at you current signiture...


> separated, honoring wife daily with AA, counseling, she deserves the best me i can give her.


Your healing won't be complete until you cut the umbilical cord from her and realise your own independence. 

She is not your mommy - *that's just not sexy*. 
She is not you saviour - *that is too much like hard work*. 
She does not complete you - *You are complete already*.

Rather than completing you, think of her as being your compliment.

When you can live for yourself, then you will be at 100%. Then as a team you will be 200%. Or if the sum is indeed greater than the parts, 2000% 

I hope she resists you until you have completed this process. She must be one smart woman.


----------



## voivod

mommy22-
thanks...funny thing is, i'm not "watching her drink beer", it's no more consequential for me than if she were having water...and the smothering part...i think it's pretty easy...from being a guy who had to know every little detail as to her comings and goings for years to where i'm at now...i have this unbelievable peace in the trust that's inside me that i should have had for the past 20 or so years...

mark twain--
the signature...it's just a reminder for me...i am to honor her as it is described by chapman in his books...although she has been somewhat of a mommy, VERY MUCH of a savior (my story is true, she saved my life), and i have used her to complete me (my bad), my realization of those facts has made my growth simpler...i believe she is resisting me...i don't think she's gonna let me off easy, as she has done in the past...that's been the frustrating part. y'know, you get used to getting things your own way...it's wrong, but it is...


----------



## voivod

i'm sorta micro-managing this comeback with the help of this forum. i hope y'all don't mind, but it seems to be helping...

i have a question, maybe y'all can help...my life insurance policy is rather large...the premium comes out of my wifes bank account (used to be our joint account). she is the beneficiary...that's the way i want it...i have been transferring money to her acct. to cover the premium. does this seem okay?

also...i bought a car for my 16 year old two years ago (14 is legal driving age here) and i saw a call come in from the finance company on my cell phone a couple of days ago. i fear the payment wasn't made...i want to help if beth needs it...am i putting my nose where it doesn't belong?


----------



## draconis

voivod said:


> i'm sorta micro-managing this comeback with the help of this forum. i hope y'all don't mind, but it seems to be helping...
> 
> i have a question, maybe y'all can help...my life insurance policy is rather large...the premium comes out of my wifes bank account (used to be our joint account). she is the beneficiary...that's the way i want it...i have been transferring money to her acct. to cover the premium. does this seem okay?
> 
> also...i bought a car for my 16 year old two years ago (14 is legal driving age here) and i saw a call come in from the finance company on my cell phone a couple of days ago. i fear the payment wasn't made...i want to help if beth needs it...am i putting my nose where it doesn't belong?


Yes I would think it would be okay for you to make your insurance payment.

As for the car, "Beth, the car company called to remind us about the payment should I send out of check?" That way you let her be in control and if it is just a matter of it mailed a bit late than it is no big deal.

draconis


----------



## voivod

drac--

ok...i did...just called the bank and ok'ed the transfer. and i feel good about it...

good news...i am getting real kindness reciprocated. i sure hate to sound like me me me, but the reason i point this out is because dr. rice (my/our old counselor) told beth at our last visit "you are no longer responsible for him" (remember she had been instrumental in my stroke rehab/recovery; i think he hurt her feelings by saying that) and told her to change her phone number and told me to call 911 if i needed health help. anyway, beth came over this morning to "check on me." i love her.


----------



## draconis

You have one heck of a woman there.

I am routing for the both of you.

draconis


----------



## voivod

draconis said:


> You have one heck of a woman there.
> 
> I am routing for the both of you.
> 
> draconis


thanks draconis!

should i still just be patient...or do you think i should get more aggressive? i know my comfort level...patience is ok with me if that's what you think...


----------



## draconis

I think I'd wait for the independence thing to kick in. See if that affects things a bit. If she doesn't come to you after you start to work for a bit then maybe a well choosen question about where things are.

draconis


----------



## voivod

draconis--

y'know, i have no serious sense of urgency now...we are getting along great, maybe better than ever...we're spending great time together...as crappy as it sounds, the only thing i'm missing is the physical intimacy that goes along with living in the same place...i catch myself wanting to chase her around the house...that i don't do but wow i want to...so maybe pushing it is the wrong thing right now...i'm gonna build slowly on what we have now...i just don't wanna give her the idea that this is how i want it!


----------



## draconis

voivod said:


> draconis--
> 
> y'know, i have no serious sense of urgency now...we are getting along great, maybe better than ever...we're spending great time together...as crappy as it sounds, the only thing i'm missing is the physical intimacy that goes along with living in the same place...i catch myself wanting to chase her around the house...that i don't do but wow i want to...so maybe pushing it is the wrong thing right now...i'm gonna build slowly on what we have now...i just don't wanna give her the idea that this is how i want it!


Good for you, you have a winning way. After all these years I am sure she enjoys being woo'd again. How did the car payment thing go?

draconis


----------



## voivod

draconis said:


> Good for you, you have a winning way. After all these years I am sure she enjoys being woo'd again. How did the car payment thing go?
> 
> draconis


car payment was quiet...kept it at the level i wanted it...i didn't really want a big thank you...it's my obligation too...my name is on the loan as well as beth's...we bought it for kara together...

if i pose a "well-chosen question" as you put it, i'm afraid it's going to be seen as, well, pushy, too agressive, i don't know, one of the questions my counselor said i could ask and get away with is "what would need to be in place for feel good about moving forward together?" and beth said "just keep acting how you're acting." maybe that's the answer, huh?


----------



## draconis

voivod said:


> car payment was quiet...kept it at the level i wanted it...i didn't really want a big thank you...it's my obligation too...my name is on the loan as well as beth's...we bought it for kara together...
> 
> if i pose a "well-chosen question" as you put it, i'm afraid it's going to be seen as, well, pushy, too agressive, i don't know, one of the questions my counselor said i could ask and get away with is "what would need to be in place for feel good about moving forward together?" and beth said "just keep acting how you're acting." maybe that's the answer, huh?



About the car --good.

As for the moving forward, since you have your answer you don't need to ask and the option to ask is always there.

draconis


----------



## voivod

i know, my question might sound something like: "you know honey. i love you and i KNOW you love me. can we just cut this crap out and move in together again." or "hey i got an idea. let's send the kids to bed and ****."

i'm not sure i'm ready for the reaction on either question!


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod-

You're just a few short blocks away from that, but first you need to create just a little more space. I think when she knows you don't NEED her, she will feel a hunger for you.

But I don't think we should tell you when to pop the question, that timing you will have to decide on.


----------



## voivod

mark twain...

so the slow and steady strategy still holds??? i'm dreaming about her now!!!! 

i don't think she'll EVER "need" me...she's proving that...good for her!!!


----------



## MarkTwain

You are on track, yes. She does need you I'm sure, but she wants to know that her "fix" won't her her.


----------



## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> voivod-
> 
> You're just a few short blocks away from that, but first you need to create just a little more space. I think when she knows you don't NEED her, she will feel a hunger for you.
> 
> But I don't think we should tell you when to pop the question, that timing you will have to decide on.


okay...i hope you're right man...it seems a day by day thing...i hope that's normal...i get the feeling she thinks the doting is part of the act...and she's enjoying it drac!


----------



## NikiVicious

Let her go at her own pace. Things are moving in the right direction from what it sounds like. Remember to be intimate, you have to reach a girl mentally/emotionally first and it seems like that is steadily going strong. I agree, you have one hell of a woman there! :smthumbup:


----------



## draconis

NikiVicious said:


> Let her go at her own pace. Things are moving in the right direction from what it sounds like. Remember to be intimate, you have to reach a girl mentally/emotionally first and it seems like that is steadily going strong. I agree, you have one hell of a woman there! :smthumbup:


:iagree:

draconis


----------



## voivod

letting things go at her own pace...okay...i'm trying...problem is, with any slip up at all, i'm leaving the door open for bad things to occur. 

i feel like i need to take charge of "pace" a little because it's going so slow it's allowing for a slip up to fall into place. i don't quite know how to put it..


----------



## voivod

NikiVicious said:


> Let her go at her own pace. Things are moving in the right direction from what it sounds like. Remember to be intimate, you have to reach a girl mentally/emotionally first and it seems like that is steadily going strong. I agree, you have one hell of a woman there! :smthumbup:



the intimacy part is just a "want" on my end...not a necessity...although our intimate life was at time incredible, and unforgettable...i just want her to feel comfortable with my feelings about that...

mostly, of course, i want this crap to be over with. some days it feels close, others, not so close.


----------



## draconis

voivod said:


> letting things go at her own pace...okay...i'm trying...problem is, with any slip up at all, i'm leaving the door open for bad things to occur.
> 
> i feel like i need to take charge of "pace" a little because it's going so slow it's allowing for a slip up to fall into place. i don't quite know how to put it..



You put it perfectly.

Now think about it. This is a matter of trust. She wants the control to feel safe BEFORE committing to the marriage. It is like an engagement period all over again.

She wants to see consistancy with you. She wants to know that the good changes are for the long haul.

draconis


----------



## voivod

draconis said:


> You put it perfectly.
> 
> Now think about it. This is a matter of trust. She wants the control to feel safe BEFORE committing to the marriage. It is like an engagement period all over again.
> 
> She wants to see consistancy with you. She wants to know that the good changes are for the long haul.
> 
> draconis


draconis--

i don't mean a major slip...i mean any little thing that would cause an argument or dispute. i mean, like if i forgot to pick something up at the store, anything...


----------



## draconis

I doubt something little is going to be a deal breaker just make sure to do all you can, and if a little thing gets missed say sorry, keep an even tone and move on.

draconis


----------



## voivod

holy cow draconis...how right you are...there was an opportunity tonight for her to let me have it...instead she took it easy on me...i think i made my 16 yr old daughter cry...it broke my heart, but i broke hers...my 16 yr old has been a real butthead the past few days, treating her 11 yr old sister badly and i've made it clear that i've had it...no more of it...so she started up again tonight...she said something to me, i said something to her...as o was leaving, i caught a tear in her eye...i went back and told her howe much i love her and begged her forgiveness...anyway, i told beth about the exchange...she said that she forgave me and no hard feelings...whew! a really nice text exchange between me and beth about the episode. she knows how to make me feel good.

so i asked my 16 yr old to go out with me on a dinner date after she gets off work tonight.


----------



## draconis

voivod said:


> holy cow draconis...how right you are...there was an opportunity tonight for her to let me have it...instead she took it easy on me...i think i made my 16 yr old daughter cry...it broke my heart, but i broke hers...my 16 yr old has been a real butthead the past few days, treating her 11 yr old sister badly and i've made it clear that i've had it...no more of it...so she started up again tonight...she said something to me, i said something to her...as o was leaving, i caught a tear in her eye...i went back and told her howe much i love her and begged her forgiveness...anyway, i told beth about the exchange...she said that she forgave me and no hard feelings...whew! a really nice text exchange between me and beth about the episode. she knows how to make me feel good.
> 
> so i asked my 16 yr old to go out with me on a dinner date after she gets off work tonight.


It is hard to keep connected with teenagers. Good that you are working, specially since she is the most distant from you.

draconis


----------



## voivod

drac-(you've been following this the longest)--
friendly texts back and forth about the 16 yr old daughter conflict...mom recognizes daughter is playing unfairly...to mom's credit, especially during this time of stress, she's giving me the benefit of the doubt...text messages include "it's ok"..."u didn't do it"..."it's ok"...rather than the expected defending daughter and attacking me...maybe she's starting to see the truth...that i'm not a bad guy and that I AM dedicated to peace harmony and love in this family...


----------



## draconis

You'll have to forgive me tonight, my MD is playing hard on me--

I think that you need to make sure to patch the rift with your daughter. WHEN you are all a family together again she needs to feel welcomed too, and needs to know that she can't play you and Beth against each other, as that will only hurt everyone and cause unneeded harm. It is good that the both of you are going to go out and bond. Make sure to let her know that you love her, and although your reaction was right you are sorry that you reacted harsher than needed.

I think it is great that your wife and yourself can present a united front to the children. You need to thank Beth for this. Many parents don't do that, and you ot to be thatnkful for her standing beside you.

I pray for you tonight.

draconis


----------



## voivod

draconis said:


> You'll have to forgive me tonight, my MD is playing hard on me--
> 
> I think that you need to make sure to patch the rift with your daughter. WHEN you are all a family together again she needs to feel welcomed too, and needs to know that she can't play you and Beth against each other, as that will only hurt everyone and cause unneeded harm. It is good that the both of you are going to go out and bond. Make sure to let her know that you love her, and although your reaction was right you are sorry that you reacted harsher than needed.
> 
> I think it is great that your wife and yourself can present a united front to the children. You need to thank Beth for this. Many parents don't do that, and you ot to be thatnkful for her standing beside you.
> 
> I pray for you tonight.
> 
> draconis


rift is patched. daughter played super nice today...she reminded me of daddy'd little girl...it was sweet to have her back in that mode, she was great to be around. beth explained that it's not ALWAYS the 16 yr old, sometimes the 11 yr old pushes her buttons and i should give that somw creedence...i listened intently, looking into her eyes and saying i agree and it turned out nice tonite...beth is also including me in more of her "advice" conversation. i think i feel good about where we are at and going.


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> .i listened intently, looking into her eyes and saying i agree and it turned out nice tonite...beth is also including me in more of her "advice" conversation.


If you want to really turn her on, make a point of disagreeing occasionally when you feel differently - that will let her know that you are not just sucking up to her. She wants a man, remember, not a Dictaphone.

You see, if you just be yourself, without worrying about the outcome, you will get the woman you need. If you micromanage too much, she will sus you out, believe me, and you will leave her feeling a bit icky. Nobody wants to feel manipulated or fawned upon. Time to stop the self-conciousness


----------



## voivod

the daughter issue has completely turned the corner...she is back to good and out of her crappy attitude. i gave her a ride to work this morning and she was so pleasant...i know beth had a word with her and it has really helped. nice to have daddy's girl back...

mark twain,
i'm trying real hard not to be a suck up, but rarely does an issue come up that deserves the effort to be the contrarian...we almost never disagree on anything...


----------



## voivod

has anyone run into this: i thinkhaving our kids along for these little date events is causing a problem. my 5 year old boy tends to "act up" a bit when he gets mom and dad in the same place. it's aklmost automatic. he's a perfect gentleman when he's with me, but when mom is around, it's almost like he's challenging me. it makes mom a little (ok sometimes A LOT) tense.

i don't think "find a sitter when you guys do something together" is always gonna be the answer. i think she's more comfortable in her "defense" mode when we're with the kids.

opinions?


----------



## voivod

just got a funny little text and phone call from beth. txt said: "you can call me at work again. dr. rice doesn't make decisions for me."

in the phone call she essentially said the same thing. dr. rice actually gave me some good advice in telling me to back off the calls and texts. BUT...

i think she was feeling a little neglected. she almost sounded militant when she told me "dr. rice doesn't make decisions for me."

word to the wise...when she asks for space, give her a wide berth, it works i think.


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> just got a funny little text and phone call from beth. txt said: "you can call me at work again. dr. rice doesn't make decisions for me."


Cool, the medicine is really starting to bite. But you know how they say you MUST finish the course of antibiotics... 

So don't over-call. What we have going on here is a genuine hunger in her stomach to hear from you. Don't over-feed her. But throw her enough to whet her appetite.

Then, when she is really *hungry *for you, you can call her at work one day and say, "how about getting back?". You will know when.

We are all on the edge of our seats, it must be close. How long has it been since you split?


----------



## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> Cool, the medicine is really starting to bite. But you know how they say you MUST finish the course of antibiotics...
> 
> So don't over-call. What we have going on here is a genuine hunger in her stomach to hear from you. Don't over-feed her. But throw her enough to whet her appetite.
> 
> Then, when she is really *hungry *for you, you can call her at work one day and say, "how about getting back?". You will know when.
> 
> We are all on the edge of our seats, it must be close. How long has it been since you split?


yeah, well, i just got back from doing a run to her work to pick her up and take her home. she was "sick" but i know her and she's a tough gal so i don't know. too many coincidences. anyway, after the "you can call me anytime" txt, she called and asked for a ride home. hmmm...

we've been split since june 20th.

oh, by the way, she brought up my counseling and thought it was a good idea if i saw someone besides dr. rice (which i am now). her comment was "with him it was all about alcohol." i just let that comment sit.


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## draconis

It sounds like the new guy isn't limited as dr rice. Dr Rice had a good getting you started but at the end seemed a bit controling. Sorry so long since posts. My pm a day ago says why.

draconis


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## MarkTwain

voivod-

*Doing things in the proper order.*

I was thinking about your situation last night, and in particular your wondering when to pop the question about moving back in. It occurred to me that this is all upside down, especially as you're already married.

What might make more sense is to wait for the physical intimacy to come back first. I'm not necessarily talking full on sex. I'm thinking of affectionate cuddles and kisses. When it reaches the point where you can't keep your hands off each other, she will probably ask you to stay the night - or you will simply find that you are in bed with her, and it is late, so no point going home.

After sufficient over-night stays, you can ask about moving back. You will both know when.

What you should not do is ask to move back before things have gotten quite steamy. Even worse would be if she asks you to move back in before things have got steamy. Imagine the scenario of moving into the spare bedroom, and trying to wriggle your way into her bedroom. You might think, it's only a corridor away. But you'd be wrong. If her intimacy boundaries are still up, you are not going to get in. The situation could actually be quite awkward.

People misunderstand the importance of sexuality in marriage. It's both a litmus test, as well as an enabler for other things. 

My advice would be to actually turn her down if she invites you back too early. Tell her, you can't wait, but you want to give her longer to rebuild her trust in you. (By the way this is code for: "You have not been flirty enough with me yet to prove you really want me between your legs". Women always talk in code about important things, so here is your chance to out encrypt her!). When you talk in code like this, you should never make it too obvious what it means. My wife tells me things, that take me a week to understand - and that's only the few I do manage to catch! But when you talk like this, even if she does not understand consciously, she will grasp it at a deep level because women are like that. 

Off topic but, the other thing women do by talking in code is to re-write history or the meaning of the code whenever it suits. They do this quite sincerely, reality is different between men ad women. By not talking in black and white, they can later insist that when they said so and so, it meant such and such. And the next day they tell you, NO, it actually meant something else. It's best not to challenge them on this too often. Gee I hope none of our female members are reading this or I'm done for!

However, if she really pushes you, tell her you're not coming back as her brother, you will have to be in the role of a loving husband or it's no deal. (In you own words of course, but I'm hoping you don't have to be so direct).

By being unexpectedly tough, she will be annoyed to your face, but behind your back she will be thinking "WOW - he is one tough guy!" It will play on her mind if you give it time to percolate. Since cave-men days, women have been attracted to men who have grit.

I could write a lot more, but I'm hoping you are filling in the blanks.

So this will make your little exercise of not over-calling her seem like a walk in the park!

Forget trying to micro-manage the small things. Look at the big picture. So what if you slip up from time to time - you always will. The main point is to begin as you mean to go on. If you dance on eggshells now, you will be forever dancing on eggshells.


----------



## husbandinthemking

I'm back from my vacation.

How goes it Voi?


----------



## voivod

i'm so freakin tired...i've been towing the line for 4 months...my wife 's lease expires at the end of november. she's coming around, it seems, but NOW it seems so slllooowwww. i can't be mr. nice guy as i am getting angrier by the day because i'm unable to mark progress. if something doesn't happen soon, i'm gonna pop.


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## draconis

voivod said:


> i'm so freakin tired...i've been towing the line for 4 months...my wife 's lease expires at the end of november. she's coming around, it seems, but NOW it seems so slllooowwww. i can't be mr. nice guy as i am getting angrier by the day because i'm unable to mark progress. if something doesn't happen soon, i'm gonna pop.


You are making progress you just can't see the forest through the leaves. Popping will only destroy everything you have built.

draconis


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## MarkTwain

voivod-
Drac is absolutly right, you are doing well. I wrote all that stuff in my last post, in order to *slow you down*, as it seemed you might be going too fast! (In some ways).

Here is something to try... you need to get the physical intimacy going. The trick to use is escalation. The easiest place to touch someone is on the shoulder or arm. Do plenty of that, and work towards more controversial areas.

You need to be French kissing by November


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## voivod

drac--
the stress is killing me. i am on disability and money is tight. christmas is coming. we really need both incomes to make this family work financially. when i made a ton of money, it wasn't always easy. now she says she's tight, her lease is coming up, the logical thing would be to get back together and make it work, and it can't happen fast enough.


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## draconis

voivod said:


> drac--
> the stress is killing me. i am on disability and money is tight. christmas is coming. we really need both incomes to make this family work financially. when i made a ton of money, it wasn't always easy. now she says she's tight, her lease is coming up, the logical thing would be to get back together and make it work, and it can't happen fast enough.


I was where you were not to long ago without the seperation. I made 60-80k a year, owned investment property had three cars the works. We lost it all because I became disabled. We have one car now. We rent from someone else, We cling to what my small business can do and what my wife makes. We had to adjust a lot. I think it was hardest on the kids. But we made it work. We scaled many things back, but it can work.

The more you stress the worse you are making it on yourself because stress causes more stress. Imagine if Job let his stress get to him. He lost his family, monry, property and his health (sound familiar?). But he kept his faith in life and in God.

Job 1
1There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. 

2And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters. 

3His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east. 

4And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them. 

5And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually. 

6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 

7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 

8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? 

9Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 

10Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 

11But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. 

12And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. 

13And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: 

14And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them: 

15And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. 

16While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. 

17While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. 

18While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: 

19And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. 

20Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped, 

21And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD. 

22In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.


draconis


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## voivod

draconis--

job=patience, huh? it's not lost on me my friend...and the story of job and the lord...i will have material things again...i got rich selling cars and i will again. hoever, this time i will use my gains for bettering this world..i've committed to that. (Ha! can you see me, and old limping stroke survivor out there on the lot selling cars!!! watch me brother, i'm gonna succeed again!)

anyway, thing are coming on slow but steady. beth looked me right in the eye and said "hey what do you think about signing up for a family membership at the "y"???? heck yeah, i said. i told her most of my excercise takes place between 5-7am before the kids wake up for school, and it's mostly stairs work. she smiled. anyway, as you well know, words/actions mean everything to beth, so i put a fair amount of meaning into her asking me that about the "y".

i'm keeping on...soccer day tomorrow, and pumpkin carving, both family activities, along with high school musical 3, so should have ample opportunity to "show my stuff." wish me luck & keep me in your prayers.


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## draconis

I always have you in my prayers.

Good luck.

draconis


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## voivod

mommy22 said:


> I'm so happy for you. I think the others here who've encouraged patience and perseverance have been dead on. If you can just stay focused on that light at the end of the tunnel, it will pay off for you. She loves you so much.


the crazy thing is mommy that the love she used to show was so, umm, intense. she would have done anything for me, and did. she would submit to my craziest whim, amything! so now that she's more catious with her feelings, i actually feel neglected! i hope you're right about her loving me. i give her every reason to still have that.


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## draconis

voivod said:


> the crazy thing is mommy that the love she used to show was so, umm, intense. she would have done anything for me, and did. she would submit to my craziest whim, amything!


It still is but you don't see it yet. SHe is still here isn't she. Hasn't enough people including Dr. Rice told her she was crazy. But she is still there by your side. Maybe not in a way she has been before but she is doing what your marriage needs right now. She needs you at full strength, full love and devoution. Has there ever been a time in your marriage you have work so much on yourself? On the marriage? To woo her?

draconis


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## voivod

glad to post up tonight that today was the most productive I've had in awhile. soccer day for the kids...my wife coaches my 10 yr old girl and they won two games today, are in the championship next week, and (although i've been careful to NOT give advice to her) she thanked me for some advice i gave her regarding a soccer parent problem she asked me about. good news, because one of the "walls" she says she has up has to do with advice. apparently i've not been a very good listener in the past and tried to solve all the problems she brought to me. she said "i just want to be able to tell you without you thinking you had to fix everything." so she asked me for advice, i gave it, she used it and thanked me. kinda opened the door for the rest of the day.

then took my 11 yr old daughter to High School Musical 3 with a friend of hers. scored some daddy points with that. then got to take my boy (5) to the park. more daddy points, and he was so well behaved tonite that it made things easier on beth for our date night. movie night is tonight "what happens in vegas." there's a scene at the end where he track her down. pretty romantic. our eyes kinda caught each other, nice feeling. she called me "honey" tonight, i rubbed her shoulder affectionately. i'm being careful.

could be that she's softening her attitude toward me. last night she acknowledged some change she's noticed in me. i left her apt feeling ten feet tall.

drac--to answer your question: NO, I HAVE never had to work very hard on the marriage or to woo her. she has always been a (sorry to say it but...) pushover for me. i've never had to do anything to "win her." whew...this is the hardest things i've ever had to do.


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## voivod

i will tell you this...i'm finding out that it takes ALL your energy to make good when you have made bad...and that's the price you pay. more than that...if you are being told to do something "counter-intuitive" to fix your relationship...DON'T...there is a reason it's COUNTER-intuitive...normal people who want a relationship with someone don't treat the object of the affection like crap!

i followed some bad advice from one of those "get your ex back" gurus(?) and it could very well cost me everything i've worked so hard at...if it's found out. plus, i feel like such a heel, i don't deserve anything but slapped in the face.

just use all your resources to get back on the right page. love your husband or wife. don't lose focus...that's what i learned today. oh yeah, and never forget, there are some very warm, smart, compassionate people here. take their advice to heart.


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## draconis

I pray that all will turn out right for you.

draconis


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## MarkTwain

voivod-

Women don't tend to look at single incidents like men do. You can get away with the odd low move, as long as it's the exception. Women's minds are more diffuse than men's; each incident (good or bad) gets put on the "slate" and merely affects the general build up of the mood.


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## voivod

twice now, i've been in the middle of writing a fairly long post and had it *POOF* disappear, so i'm taking that as a sign to make this short and sweet. 

i have traded pm's with a few of you over the past couple months and i want to tell you publicly (drac, swedish, mommy2, mark twain, justean) thank you for helping me through this very difficult time in my life. i don't really know what's going to happen, but almost everyone seems to think we're going the right direction. i've come to realize my issues stem from my own low self-esteem. jealousy, controlling, stuff like that i have to fix before i can be seen as an attractive mate. when i was in the hospital, beth said "you are the boy i fell in love with." she was referencing me being not stressed, relaxed, and warm towards her. my goal is to reach that state again. our time together the past couple of months has shown me that i can let go of jealousy and controlling, it's not that hard for me, but for beth she's gona hafta feel it will not return. she is giving me a chance. too many have said "if she were going to bail, she'd have done it." i tend to agree, so i'm going to use my time with her wisely.

having said that, i'm gonna mosey on down the dusty trail of life, i hope that you don't mind if i still post if i feel i need some advice, and that i might continue to offer some if i think i can help. i know me, the first time something happens out of the ordinary, i'll be right back on this thread! i would still like to trade pm's with you.
let's just say that i'm tired and i need all my energy to save my marriage. but, i'll be around. 

thanks y'all. this is a great place!


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## MarkTwain

You had better keep us up to date OR ELSE...


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## draconis

Actually I do more stuff through pms sometimes than post. This month I have done about 150 alone. So all is good.

draconis


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## voivod

dammit, i knew i'd be back here, but it's not for the reason i had hoped.

i about blew my top today. real bad attitude, probably precipitated by not getting a "thank you" for dropping a pretty peny on lunch for her today. i know, i've told others not to EXPECT a thanks, but c'mon. thank you seems so, well, appropriate. but none.

so beth comes of as though she's being put out by a halloween party that i set up for my kids. gave some lame-ass excuse about soccer schedules which i know is BS.

anyway, i've already made my way around the forum looking for opinion, but...

what do you think? how should i deal with this. i have been working my ass off at being the kind of man she deserves, but i think it's high time she gives in a little too. she's a little too cold hearted for me right now.

i can't just walk away. see the first post in this thread and you'll see the real, emotional attachment we have. my love for her will never change. i've stolen this idea from someones signature recently: "i WILL save my marriage." i don't really know how much i screwed up or how much she's using my relapse as an excuse now, because i am sober since may 19th.

whattaya think? i'll take it if you wanna blast me. i'm also open to your comments/advice.

thanks.

ps-the depression thing is real, i know that. so saying that you think i might be depressed...been there. thanks.


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## draconis

I just wrote you a book in the pm section.

you have my thoughts.

draconis


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## voivod

just a little thanks. that would have went a long way. i have gone a long way. i truly believe she has forgotten what this separation is about.


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## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> just a little thanks. that would have went a long way. i have gone a long way. i truly believe she has forgotten what this separation is about.


This is not meant to sound harsh, I am in a hurry today 

If you blew your top that is cool. Stop being the false guy, and be real. Now..., if you back off a bit, while you catch your breath, see if *she* steps in to fill the vacuum. (But that's more game playing of course).

At some point, if all these games get you no-where. You might have to just plain ask her if she wants to be your wife again or not.

The problem with all the advice we are giving you on here, me included, is it's all just a bit contrived. Yes it's good stuff. But it does not come naturally as you know.


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## draconis

SO what she was self absorbed or selfish. Have you ever been selfish?

Maybe there is a deeper issue with her. Communicate with her.

"I really wanted to cheer you up at lunch but by the lack of reaction I don't know if I did something wrong. Also, I really wanted to do something for the kids, because I haven't felt like a father that I pictured myself to be. I want to communicate with you beter but right now I just don't know what is going on."

draconis


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## voivod

drac--
i'm hot & cold man. today and tonight were fine. today i got a chance to try on my new "i'm not jealous" shoes. they fit pretty good. and tonight i got some good signals, overriding any of the crap i've been feeling. i'm setting up fine. she said it was her stomach(gall bladder) that was bothering her at lunch yesterday. she did give me two nice "thank you's" for something else unrelated.
fyi...you said there may be deeper issues with her. that's her history. she admitted today that she's not been very good at communicating, and that she gets mad to easy. hmmm.


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## draconis

Well here now is the perfect time to learn to communicate together.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> Well here now is the perfect time to learn to communicate together.
> 
> draconis


yep. that's the new plan.


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## voivod

draconis said:


> Well here now is the perfect time to learn to communicate together.
> 
> draconis


you lknow, today was the day i had planned to launch the good ship "communication." smooth sailing, unfortunately it was just about all small talk. but i got a steady volley of "honey's" out of it.

i also get the feeling that getting a little grumpy at her worked in my benefit. set her back on her heels. she got a little defensive and she hasn't been there in awhile.

and got a few texts about the time change this morning a little after midnight. nice she's thinking about me! ha!

i gotta good feeling about things...my instinct runs wild, but it feels good right now,


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## draconis

Well you are normally back and forth. However the idea that she was surprised by you might have helped but I would caution from over doing it.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> Well you are normally back and forth. However the idea that she was surprised by you might have helped but I would caution from over doing it.
> 
> draconis


drac-

my little "angry" moment was not calculated, but had been building for some time. heck, i even noticed my posts here were getting more and more "cranky." i just switched anti-depressants cymbalta to citalopram, so maybe there was a reason there. i don't know, i just know i feel better about just about everything right now than i did 48 hours ago.

i think the hidden by-product of my anger outburst may have been a positive attitude from beth. maybe i was boring her with mr. nicey-nice. i've never been that way.


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## draconis

It may have been that she was just having a bad day and your attitude did not effect her at all.

draconis


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## voivod

yeah, she kinda alluded to her "cycle." for years we've had this little inside joke about it...bad days are okay...


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## voivod

mommy22 said:


> Trust me, in the same way that your chemical levels can get out of whack with depression, a woman's hormonal levels can go crazy too. Some women get mean, others get depressed and down on themselves, but it's real! Glad you can keep it in perspective.


yeah, i know. let me give you some perspective. a liitle less than two years ago, i came home with the "wrong trash bags." i mean the s#!t really hit the fan. i bought the white ones rather than the black one...wooohoo!! beth went nuts!

the "wrong trash bags." wow.


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## draconis

My wife gets a bit sleepy and a bit snappy.

draconis


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## voivod

mommy22 said:


> I've never had an episode about trash bags. It's probably because I don't want to bite the hand that feeds me-- he might stop making grocery store runs when I need him to!
> 
> Hey, the next time she gets mad at you, just go buy a box of her fave black trash bags. At least she'll know you were listening! LOL!!!


i got the chance to buy trash bags again a few weeks ago. funny thing is, the whole episode had slipped my mind. i never got the chance to rub it in that would've been funny...to me.

isn't this relationship something. we are freaking separated. sometimes i read my own posts...they don't sound like the tragic stuff i read from other people. i'm sorry for those other people fot taking up space here, but mine is just as sad, to me.
i think we look like a couple of junior high kids sometimes.

like when i get all thrilled because she texts me asking about the time change, or she comes over to my apt to ask me about some parental conflict or another on her soccer team. somethings gotta give, this is stupid!


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## draconis

It is important because you find what is happening important. I still pray things work out for the both of you.

draconis


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## draconis

mommy22 said:


> You know V, you shouldn't feel the need to apologize for taking up space. If venting helps you work things out in your head, it's a healthy way to deal with issues. You've made it through a lot. I'm glad you're at a place where you can talk about it and not use other means to cover up any anger, frustration, or pain.



well said

:iagree:

draconis


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## voivod

cool, that's why i knew i'd be back on this thread. so i kinda kicked myself after i posted that i'd be taking some time away from it. i just saw an email that b sent out to everyone regarding a coaching matter. referred to me several times as "husband", i think more and more that she's moving toward the softening heart.


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## draconis

I think she is and always was there.

draconis


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## Sprite

I am new to this forum and I must say i was very interested in your story. You sound so much like my husband its not even funny! My question to you is this....How long has she had to deal with your drinking problem? I ask this because my husband had an addiction too...his race car. For 15 years out of a 20 year marriage he was devoted to only himself and his race car. He was very selfish, controlling and seemingly uncaring of his family and myself. Now the table has turned. He too had a life altering experience(his was spiritual) and is now devoted to the family and me. From my point of view(and I am only trying to help you understand a little more of where your wife may be coming from here), he may be only doing this for fear he may lose me. 
Problems and issues that accrue over years will not be able to be solved or fixed in a matter of months. It took how many years to get to the point of the seperation? You can talk to her until you are blue in the face and it doesn't matter sometimes. Actions speak louder than words!
The fact that you are still in her life and you seem closer than most couples that have seperated, should give you hope. But you have to understand where she is coming from, and I hope I can shed some light on that. She has been hurt and probably over the years has built up an emotional wall to protect herself from ever feeling that again.
When one person gives everything in a relationship, and the other only takes, it makes for resentment and hurt. When a promise is broken, it makes for a trust issue. She may know that you love her and are changing, but she may be asking herself....how long will this last? is it for real? when will he break his promise again? how can I be sure he will not break my heart again? if I do go back with him, how long will it take until he is his old self again? how do I know I can trust him? has he changed because he is afraid of losing me? or has he truely changed?
I think it is great that you are accepting that you have created this mess and are dealing with it...most alcoholics only try to find someone or something to blame. Have you made her understand that you are taking resposibility for your actions in the past? Her having lived with an alcoholic parent(i think i read that) should give her an indication that you are for real with this.
But you must understand above all else, she has been hurting for a long time, and it will take twice as long until she feels she may be able to trust you again. 
I remember reading that she has a problem communicating. Maybe you can ask her some direct questions to help her "get it off her chest". Believe me, she may not be saying it, but there is some resentment there and anger. If you can ask her questions as to how she feels about you and this change in you, maybe she can open up.
I really wish you the best of luck and I will keep checking back for updates. Just dont get discouraged if things dont happen quickly. She needs time to heal!


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## draconis

hmmm...Another person that said time....

Anyways, you might be seperated right now but you have a better relationship than most people that are married and have a good chnce to save everything and be the man you wish to be.

draconis


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## voivod

Sprite said:


> My question to you is this....How long has she had to deal with your drinking problem? I ask this because my husband had an addiction too...his race car. For 15 years out of a 20 year marriage he was devoted to only himself and his race car. He was very selfish, controlling and seemingly uncaring of his family and myself. Now the table has turned. He too had a life altering experience(his was spiritual) and is now devoted to the family and me. From my point of view(and I am only trying to help you understand a little more of where your wife may be coming from here), he may be only doing this for fear he may lose me.



oh, believe me, my motivation comes from the consequences! my actions are because i don't wanna lose the family! but at times i'm also finding an amazing clarity in my sobriety. so much so that i think the separation, as was the stroke, are blessings. 




Sprite said:


> The fact that you are still in her life and you seem closer than most couples that have seperated, should give you hope. But you have to understand where she is coming from, and I hope I can shed some light on that. She has been hurt and probably over the years has built up an emotional wall to protect herself from ever feeling that again.
> When one person gives everything in a relationship, and the other only takes, it makes for resentment and hurt. When a promise is broken, it makes for a trust issue. She may know that you love her and are changing, but she may be asking herself....how long will this last? is it for real? when will he break his promise again? how can I be sure he will not break my heart again? if I do go back with him, how long will it take until he is his old self again? how do I know I can trust him? has he changed because he is afraid of losing me? or has he truely changed?!


you'll see other posts of mine where i acknowledge how fortunate i am that we continue to see each other and how well we get along.

beth has been the "giver" in this relationship, and it has created a ton of resentment. that i understand.

if fact, i think back to every financial decision, work option, housing option, since we've been together, she drove the decision. whew! i'm sure i've been hard work for her!




Sprite said:


> Believe me, she may not be saying it, but there is some resentment there and anger. If you can ask her questions as to how she feels about you and this change in you, maybe she can open up.
> I really wish you the best of luck and I will keep checking back for updates. Just dont get discouraged if things dont happen quickly. She needs time to heal!


resentment? yes, i am aware and do understand. time to heal. you know i'm not the most patient person. but, yes, time to heal.


----------



## voivod

draconis said:


> hmmm...Another person that said time....
> 
> Anyways, you might be seperated right now but you have a better relationship than most people that are married and have a good chnce to save everything and be the man you wish to be.
> 
> draconis


yeah, i know, you told me so!!!!


----------



## swedish

Yes, voivod, by now you have earned the 'it takes time' award. Unfortunately, the prize is a giant flava-flav alarm clock to wear around your neck


----------



## voivod

swedish said:


> Yes, voivod, by now you have earned the 'it takes time' award. Unfortunately, the prize is a giant flava-flav alarm clock to wear around your neck


ha! what's second prize?


----------



## swedish

okay...you dragged it out of me...it's a date with flava-flav...hot tub and all


----------



## voivod

thank you to everyone who has PM'ed me asking how we're doing. i wish i had more to report right now. big date monday night, going to a mannheim steamroller holiday concert. i guess they're a pretty big deal. this week is rough. monday was the first day that i haven't seen beth since our separation. yeah, we've been together every day since she moved out. anyway, this week is gonna be tough.

i'm afraid i am running low on patience. my gut tells me to tell her to s#!t or get off the pot, but i don't wanna force her into a decision. i've gotten enough positive vibes over the past few weeks to think that maybe she's reconsidering living together again.

again, no evidence whatsoever of another man in her life. that is comfort to me, knowing it's not "somebody else" keeping us apart. 

our anniversary is in 3 weeks and i fel like a guy sitting on death row waiting for time to pass. i'm a sentimental person, and that day is gonna be hard too.

i guess my fear of trying to push for answers is that if she reacts negatively, i'm left with no options. right now, i have the opportunity to be with her and around her, giving her a chance to see the changes that i've made. 

she's still calling me honey, refers to future stuff, and genuinely seems comfortable around me. maybe she just likes living without a man breathing down her neck.

what i would like to happen is to have her know that with me, there would be no burden of jealousy, control, or any of those other things i see on other threads. that, and her ability to enjoy her independence.


----------



## draconis

But if you had no control issues than why the want to tell her s*** or get off the pot? Those issus are still there, albeit in a smaller way. 

As Yoda once said.

"Patience, you must learn patience"

draconis


----------



## voivod

draconis said:


> But if you had no control issues than why the want to tell her s*** or get off the pot? Those issus are still there, albeit in a smaller way.
> 
> As Yoda once said.
> 
> "Patience, you must learn patience"
> 
> draconis


okay, maybe a better way to put it is i am tired of living this way. i am ready to live together as a married couple. no more of this separate living.


----------



## draconis

With celebrating your marriage coming up, have you thought of bringing it up to her?

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> With celebrating your marriage coming up, have you thought of bringing it up to her?
> 
> draconis


no, i don't think "celebration" is on her mind.


----------



## voivod

draconis said:


> But if you had no control issues than why the want to tell her s*** or get off the pot? Those issus are still there, albeit in a smaller way.
> 
> As Yoda once said.
> 
> "Patience, you must learn patience"
> 
> draconis


right. counselor says not to pose it that way 'cause she will see it as an attempt to control.


----------



## draconis

Do you plan on doing anything for it?

draconis


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> no, i don't think "celebration" is on her mind.


You might be totally wrong about that.

I would plan to celebrate it with her. Get her a present etc. A week before the date, you can ask her if she has time free to do something on xx.xx date.

In the meantime keep turning up the emotional thermostat - but I notice you are seeing her every day - that does seem a bit too much. She will really "feel" a day without you.


----------



## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> You might be totally wrong about that.
> 
> I would plan to celebrate it with her. Get her a present etc. A week before the date, you can ask her if she has time free to do something on xx.xx date.
> 
> In the meantime keep turning up the emotional thermostat - but I notice you are seeing her every day - that does seem a bit too much. She will really "feel" a day without you.


yeah, i've seen her literally every day since we separated. i always thought that was odd, but took it as hope that she still saw something there for us. yesterday and (maybe) today are the first two days i will not see her.

i can plan, but i'm not in the frame of mind to have her turn me down.


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> i can plan, but i'm not in the frame of mind to have her turn me down.


The fear of rejection should have no place in the "new you". Are you waiting for her to ask you? She may be doing the same.

Stalemate.


----------



## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> The fear of rejection should have no place in the "new you". Are you waiting for her to ask you? She may be doing the same.
> 
> Stalemate.


my fear is that she rejects me because the only ME she knows is the OLD me. interestingly enough, she just called to find out some local election results. funny, her political leanings are the same as the ever were, conservative to the core. that's something we have in common.

never any hositlity, always pleasant, this is so confusing.


----------



## draconis

confusing but good.

draconis


----------



## voivod

draconis said:


> confusing but good.
> 
> draconis


yes, good.


----------



## voivod

okay, plan something, i will. i gotta be careful not to go overboard with the romantic or the sappy. i think i'm gonna buy her something that represents an "amend" something like the clothing gift certificates (that still echoes in my head "you spent money on booze and strippers and i felt guilty for buying new clothes") for clothing store and a nice sentimental card.


----------



## voivod

a part of the problem is i am a fixer, always have been. so when i do thing, i expect to see results. it seems like the results are not what i had hoped. i've put lots of effort in, i'd have expected to be back together by now. unfortunately, that goal feels no closer than the day i began "fixing." makes a guy feel a little, uh, desparate. i don't like the way i feel now.

fortunately, posters have always believed i was going the right direction, that my wife still loved me, and that i had a good chance. without that as encouragement, i'd be lost. but i go back over the old posts, and i can't find anything in there that should discourage me more. yet, i'm stuck in this funk. that's why i sometimes feel like i wanna pull the plug. 

monday seems like forever away, so does saturday (our normal family get-together day) so i gotta pull it together. but i can't kep up like this.


----------



## swedish

voivod said:


> okay, plan something, i will. i gotta be careful not to go overboard with the romantic or the sappy. i think i'm gonna buy her something that represents an "amend" something like the clothing gift certificates (that still echoes in my head "you spent money on booze and strippers and i felt guilty for buying new clothes") for clothing store and a nice sentimental card.


This will be your 17th anniversary, right? The traditional gift for 17 years is furniture so without being overly sappy, you could get something along those lines like a plant stand with a nice plant...and yes, that idea is intentionally easily moved into your joint home at some point


----------



## voivod

mommy22 said:


> Let's see: practical, shows you care and put thought into it, not sappy, and shows you want to continue moving forward. I think we have a winner! Good one, Swedish.:smthumbup:


sounds good::iagree: thank you!

i mentioned awhile back, i think, i run hot and cold. well i'm back up. just picked up mu 11 yr old daughter from school. i've made it a habit of opening the truck door for her when she get's in. she said "dad, i love when you pick me up. you always make me feel like a princess."


----------



## swedish

love that, voivod....the best thing a dad can do for his little girl is to show her that she deserves to be treated like a princess


----------



## draconis

It is nice to see parents interacting with kids.

draconis


----------



## voivod

mommy22 said:


> And from Beth's standpoint, it's a huge turn-on for me to see my husband actively enjoying quality time spent with the children.


yes, beth is big one on the daddy stuff..i have always been daddy, except when i wasn't around because of work. then i was daddy but not around as much as i should have been. speaking of which, i did parent teacher conferences today, beth was there and "fronted" real nicely for me. as in, she was wifey rather that separated-looking. too bad she had to go back to work after the conferences. she looked good, i mean pretty.


----------



## draconis

voivod said:


> yes, beth is big one on the daddy stuff..i have always been daddy, except when i wasn't around because of work. then i was daddy but not around as much as i should have been. speaking of which, i did parent teacher conferences today, beth was there and "fronted" real nicely for me. as in, she was wifey rather that separated-looking. too bad she had to go back to work after the conferences. she looked good, i mean pretty.


It is nice that she is giving you the benefit of the doubt.

draconis


----------



## voivod

i don't know what to think of this. i'm putting my house on the market to try and dodge this mortgage meltdown. anyway, we don't stand to make much of a profit right now. my wife made mention last night about how she'd like to keep the house if she "could afford it by myself." well, she can't afford it by herself, but our incomes together, we could and she knows that. why is she being so obstinent? i understand she sees us apart right now, but she acts like we're together so much of the time (all the time)


----------



## CPT CONFUSED

voivod come on buddy! dont give up now! your doing awesome keep going! remember what i told you??? come on say it!!!! I WILL SAVE MY MARRIAGE say it... say it... go for it brother! keep chuggin in the direction your going your doing great!



CPT :smthumbup:


----------



## voivod

CPT CONFUSED said:


> voivod come on buddy! dont give up now! your doing awesome keep going! remember what i told you??? come on say it!!!! I WILL SAVE MY MARRIAGE say it... say it... go for it brother! keep chuggin in the direction your going your doing great!
> 
> 
> 
> CPT :smthumbup:


dude, i know. i've been trying for so long. the problems that she had with me are no longer. i just want to DO something, not live in the status quo. i'm gonna be ok, just the comment about the house last night is a "mule kick" because with my new job, i can pretty much afford anything that was previously in our grasp. i know finances after my stroke stressed her out. it doesn't hafta be that way.

gosh, if i were to start this thread today, it would be so much different that the way i started it. i would've mentioned the stroke and the beer, because that gave her the excuse to vent and dump on me, but i so would've included my jealousy, control issues, anger, lack of respect, neediness, etc. maybe that woul've been a more clear picture. beth has none of these (okay, maybe a little control & anger) so i can see now where the fault lies. then, once in awhile, my advice to others would make more sense.

so now the question remains...i've taken steps toward healing all these issues. what else can i do?

and i find it interesting that i've given so many guys the same advice that i should be taking for myself!

when i listen to my wife, i hear plenty of clues that she is closer to getting back together. she's taken to asking me for advice on sometghing almost every day. she alludes to thing in the future. she still calls me honey somewhat regularly. we still spend a pretty fair amount of time together. she told me that my counselor (who told me i can't call her at work) can jump off a cliff, i don't know...it just seems likw so much time has passed. but she's never done the things that would be a killer to me. she's never gone out on a date with another man, she's not filed for divorce although the bad day was 5-6 months ago, she keeps me close to her, she still has a picture of me and her as the centerpiece of her not-yet completed 2008 scrapbook. i swear i feel like she still loves me and the day is coming where she lets me back in with a list of demand, all of which i am meeting today and will continue to do. no drinking, no stupid jealous inquisitions, allow her the freedom to attend nursing school if that's what she wants, no unilateral financial decisions, etc.

anyway, just killing time here. everyone who is struggling, fight the good fight!


----------



## draconis

Okay I am back, 

Maybe she is waiting for you to offer. Maybe, you can think of a way to bring it up. That neither of you could afford it seperate but togehter (hint) you could make anything work. At this point I don't see the offer as a bad thing. Just let her know that if she says no, or she isn't in that place right now that it is okay and you understand. She might not be there. I know you'd take it hard too. Only you know if you can stand a rejection. 

draconis


----------



## voivod

mommy22 said:


> Alright, I'm going to have to take Drac's line from another thread and use it with you. Do I need to hit you "over the head with a frying pan"? She is definitely fishing. You just didn't take the bait. She was hinting and was waiting for you to say, "Well, we could afford it together...." Take the bait. Take it!!



i don't know, she said "if i could afford it on my own..."

i may be slow, but i'm stupid...

i've spent so many hours trying to find an emotional needle in a haystack, i might be losing my mind, but i didn't hear it the was you're hearing it...

besides, i'm just getting ready to take my old job back, i need to be focused on it. i made a hell of a lot of money doing it before, and i want to be a good, sorry, great provider for my family before i jump back into a huge a$$ mortgage...

...over the head with a frying pan, huh...well monday we have a date at the Mannheim Steamroller show, maybe i'll bring it up at dinner...


----------



## voivod

unbelievable. beth just called me and talked to me about our regular saturday get together and the conversation was like we've never even been apart. nothing in particular, just very friendly and "familiar" kinda talk. we're talking about caloric intake and stupid stuff like that (she, and more recently i, am very health concious). she requested that i come over to her place to help her with getting the laundry done during the football game. this is going to sound crazy, but the first night we were ever together, she came over and volunteered to do my laundry. what was that, over 20 years ago?


----------



## draconis

Another good sign.

draconis


----------



## Guest

voivod said:


> she still has a picture of me and her as the centerpiece of her not-yet completed 2008 scrapbook.


Voivod, You given me a ton of positive feelings in a very short time. I want to share one back with you. That comment you said up there tells me she hasn't closed the book on you. It just tells me she is waiting to find out the same answer as you are. Keep giving her that everyday til your back together.


can't believe I'm crying typing this.


----------



## voivod

draconis said:


> Another good sign.
> 
> draconis


draconis,
today/tonite was as close to perfect as i could've hoped. watched the whole game. it was a blowout, we won. lunch/dinner i was spot on, got all the right stuff, beth cooked, then we watched "the illusionist" and i mean she just got up and popped it in the dvd player and said "ok we're going to watch my favorite movie of all time" so we watched it. then she said "hey let's go for a drive" and we took offfor a couple of hours, we visited the entire way and really had fun! all in all it was about 7 hours of real good family time. i came away feeling like she really likes me. we didn't get to the laundry, darn

i got some extremely good vibes tonight. she alluded to me in a cute way comparing the title of a new show on cbs to my life "my own worst enemy," ha ha ha and on our drive she played a cd full of songs that she said reminded her of me. good ones too. i hope like hell this is going right!

then this morning my 11 year old texted me and said mom put in the "house" dvd and thought dad was gonna stay and watch it last night. i just didn't wanna overstay my welcome!


----------



## draconis

Have you emailed her or texted her to tell her how much fun you have had with her last night?

I would. Thanks might be nice to squeeze in too.

draconis


----------



## voivod

draconis said:


> Have you emailed her or texted her to tell her how much fun you have had with her last night?
> 
> I would. Thanks might be nice to squeeze in too.
> 
> draconis


yeah, i just did both. also have a date tomorrow night. realy looking forward to it. if things continue this way, i'm gonna step up and ask for more. such as moving back in.


----------



## draconis

It sounds like you are in a good place, if you ask for her to move in, than do it in such a way that there is no pressure on her.

draconis


----------



## voivod

draconis said:


> It sounds like you are in a good place, if you ask for her to move in, than do it in such a way that there is no pressure on her.
> 
> draconis


pressures all on me bud, wouldn't you think?


----------



## draconis

Yes and no, if you present it to her like a one time thing she may regret it and feel resentment towards you. Hence the idea that you would like for her to move back but understand if she doesn't want to yet.

draconis


----------



## voivod

draconis said:


> Yes and no, if you present it to her like a one time thing she may regret it and feel resentment towards you. Hence the idea that you would like for her to move back but understand if she doesn't want to yet.
> 
> draconis


i'm struggling with the idea that i don't thing she's ready yet.


----------



## Guest

Voivod, Are you two actually dating again. i.e. some physical contact or are the two of you dating and being together? If there is physical contact are you two at a point in the relationship again where you would ask her to move in like you would if it was a first time relationship?

I ask because she may or maynot be there yet depending on how much physical/emotional connection the two of you are having. Kinda mean like going for homebase before you got to second base. Maybe kinda a bad analogy but you know what i mean.


----------



## voivod

Jason said:


> Voivod, Are you two actually dating again. i.e. some physical contact or are the two of you dating and being together? If there is physical contact are you two at a point in the relationship again where you would ask her to move in like you would if it was a first time relationship?
> 
> I ask because she may or maynot be there yet depending on how much physical/emotional connection the two of you are having. Kinda mean like going for homebase before you got to second base. Maybe kinda a bad analogy but you know what i mean.


jason,
y'know what. the physical part of our relationship was full-on from the time we started dating the first time. she asked me to move in, which was cool. 

i think you're right, we aren't having any kind of physical relations right now, maybe that's why i feel she's not "there" yet. but honest to God there's an emotional connection. it's just coming along right now though.


----------



## draconis

voivod said:


> i'm struggling with the idea that i don't thing she's ready yet.


Can you think of a way to phrase it like you are kidding on the square?

draconis


----------



## Sprite

I feel so bad that you are going through this Voivod, but it helps me to understand how my husband has been feeling. I think the situation with you asking her to move back in is a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" kind of thing. It may appear to her as an ultimatum, or it might not. It may set things back or it might not. But, you will never know if the question is never asked. Try to word it in a way so she KNOWS that you will be ok if she says the time is not right for her. Maybe you can bring it up as a suggestion instead of an out right question that needs a yes or no response. Give her time to think about it.
I personally think you see her too much! Although it is what you want, it may not be what should be happening right now. Have you ever turned her down as far as spending time together when she asks? Maybe you should think about it. Make her miss you! She will never miss you if you are always with her.
Even though the 2 of you are seperated, it sure doesn't seem like it. You are still emotionally attached and this is a good thing. My husband is not a patient man like you...in fact the joke around here is.."I'm Dan(his name) and I HAVE to have it NOW" because this is how he has always been. Well, it seems the both of you are learning what it takes to have some patience. The question is how bad do you want it? Try not to think of it in terms of what is happening right now, look at the big picture in a year from now. Is she going to be worth it if you can be patient and wait for her to be completely ready to give her whole heart and being to you again? From your posts I am sure the answer is yes...so....you just have to hang in there and keep plugging away even if there are some set backs. This is not an easy road you are traveling now, but it hasnt been easy for her either and I know you know that. Just keep at it and I pray for you that it will all work out for the best in the end....keep your patience going, no matter how much it frustrates you...it will be worth it in the end!


----------



## voivod

Sprite said:


> I personally think you see her too much! Although it is what you want, it may not be what should be happening right now. Have you ever turned her down as far as spending time together when she asks? Maybe you should think about it. Make her miss you! She will never miss you if you are always with her.


no, i have never turned her down. good question.




Sprite said:


> Even though the 2 of you are seperated, it sure doesn't seem like it. You are still emotionally attached and this is a good thing. My husband is not a patient man like you...in fact the joke around here is.."I'm Dan(his name) and I HAVE to have it NOW" because this is how he has always been. Well, it seems the both of you are learning what it takes to have some patience. The question is how bad do you want it? Is she going to be worth it if you can be patient and wait for her to be completely ready to give her whole heart and being to you again? From your posts I am sure the answer is yes.


absolutely




Sprite said:


> ...so....you just have to hang in there and keep plugging away even if there are some set backs. This is not an easy road you are traveling now, but it hasnt been easy for her either and I know you know that. Just keep at it and I pray for you that it will all work out for the best in the end....keep your patience going, no matter how much it frustrates you...it will be worth it in the end!


sure it will be worth it. this is the hardest thing i've ever been through. i just want it over with.

thank you for your insight.


----------



## voivod

draconis said:


> Can you think of a way to phrase it like you are kidding on the square?
> 
> draconis


i'm sure i can figure out a way to do that...hmmm


----------



## Sprite

I am always happy to give my input! Reading your posts have helped me to understand where my husband is coming from and how he feels right now.
When I first started reading this, i was like..."you go boy" do what you gotta do to get that back..but then as I read more, I was like ..."whoa...thats MY husbands feelings".
We have not seperated tho, and probably never will. I have suggested a seperation several times to help me clear MY head...but the reply is always the same..." I will stay for as long as you want...untill you kick me out" meaning he wont stand for a seperation because he feels if we lose that contact with each other, we will be done. But he also wants me to be happy and if I decide a divorce is what I need, THEN he will leave. There is no in between. By him doing this makes me accountable for what I really want...to end it..or try to work it out!!
We have tossed around the idea of a marriage councelor, but I am skeptical...has it helped you at all?


----------



## voivod

Sprite said:


> We have tossed around the idea of a marriage councelor, but I am skeptical...has it helped you at all?


our first marriage counselor was incredible. she and my wife related on a good level. she seemed to know the right questions to ask my wife to begin the healing process.

she, unfortunately, left the practice to take a job with the school district, and we were referred to the founder of the firm. he, as it turns out, was just about a disaster. he thought i was getting too cocky with my sobriety (i told him that i would never have another drink due to the consequences involved with my drinking) and he overstepped his boundaries in my mind when he said in a couples session "ok, turn to her (my wife) and tell HER to take you back because you'll never have another drink. well, that didn't go over so well with my wife because, as she had told the good doctor, the separation WASN'T all about alcohol. btw, this is the counselor who told my wife (the woman who saved my life during my stroke) that she was not responsible for my health and to change the phone numbers on her cell phone and the kids cell phone! she refused, and now we aren't seeing him.

i now see an individual counselor and am a little gun shy of couples counseling.

our relationship been good since the separation. i think that's because i truly am being an upstanding man and treat her with honor. i also firmly believe my efforts to give her what i can ("space," a chance to be independent) are being rewarded. she has responded very well, especially the past couple of weeks.

i must ask. why the skepticism toward counseling?


----------



## Sprite

I have heard horror stories about them! I hear and read that they end up creating more anger and drama than needs to be. And to be totally honest...some of my skepticism comes from years of my husband rubbing off on me. He was(not sure if he still is) a firm believer that anyone who needs a "shrink" is a weak person. Also, from what I hear...they make you admit things...not that its bad, but my husband already feels bad enough about how he has treated me and the boys....why should I have to point out more issues than he has already heard about? Some things are better left unsaid...I dont want to hurt him any more than he is already hurting. But then on the other hand I would LOVE to hear what bothers him about me...since he never once in the past year said that I should have done something different, and he never complains in the past year about anything I have ever done...only compliments me and praises me for how I raised the boys and put up with his crap...kind of makes me wonder what he is keeping bottled up.
I tell him I blame myself for our situation now because I should never have let him do this to me...the scary thing is...he takes all the blame. I dont know how to handle that!!
There are so many things that should have been signs to me earlier on in our relationship, but I let it slide off my shoulder thinking that was how it was supposed to be and allowing him to bully me so to speak. I dont want to go to a councelor and have him come home and make fun of the doctor because of what he/she may have said or some activity he/she may give us to do. I am not entirely sure how open he will be about it although he has agreed to go if we feel the need to. I am just not sure if it will help or not. I have never been one to talk to anyone about my issues, I feel it is no ones business but my own and I tend to try to fix them in my own head...but this one is tough...thats why I am here!


----------



## voivod

Sprite said:


> I have never been one to talk to anyone about my issues, I feel it is no ones business but my own and I tend to try to fix them in my own head...but this one is tough...thats why I am here!


well, the longer you hang out here the more you'll get an idea of how to handle different circumstances. you get a pretty good "trial and error" here, but the thing about counselors is they do know how to get to the root of the problem. i've taken to the school of thought that you "don't talk about your problems" and instead "be the person they originally fell in love with." here's my thinking:

it's a hell of alot easier to deal with mutual problems with a person who feels "in love" or closer to that than an adversary. if you've talked about your problems, you're probably pissed off right at that point. hard to work together when you're pissed off.

that's what i'm finding.


----------



## draconis

Sprite-The best councilor (psychologist) I ever hd told me that her job was to make herself obsolete.

draconis


----------



## Sprite

voivod said:


> it's a hell of alot easier to deal with mutual problems with a person who feels "in love" or closer to that than an adversary. if you've talked about your problems, you're probably pissed off right at that point. hard to work together when you're pissed off.


You are so right! I am pissed off! I am also hurt confused and untrusting of him right now. I dont know which one is worse to try to deal with...the untrusting part of me or the pissed off part of me. The confused part will work its way out if I can get past the anger and trust issue.

I think maybe we will try the councelor route, although we have been communicating like we never have before in the past couple months. 

Is there a thread on how to find a good councelor? Or do I need to do some more reading to find it?


----------



## voivod

Sprite said:


> You are so right! I am pissed off! I am also hurt confused and untrusting of him right now. I dont know which one is worse to try to deal with...the untrusting part of me or the pissed off part of me. The confused part will work its way out if I can get past the anger and trust issue.
> 
> I think maybe we will try the councelor route, although we have been communicating like we never have before in the past couple months.
> 
> Is there a thread on how to find a good councelor? Or do I need to do some more reading to find it?


oh, trust me as i am the recipient...the trust takes a lot longer to come around. as you begin to ground yourself, your anger subsides. but the trust, you're relying on someone else, someone you don't...ummm...trust. but i'm told it's time, time,time, and patience.

how to find a good counselor...call a few and interview them. question one: "how do you measure success?"

if they can't answer that to your satisfaction...next...


----------



## Guest

I had a pretty good idea about chosing a counselor. i wanted someone whom I felt would represent my wife. Someone who I thought would relate from a women's perspective. I also needed to make sure I could connect with her as well. I was lucky and met two counselors in the same day and the first one was the charm. The second one was such a disaster, I felt completely uncomfortable with her. 


@ Voivod, do you guys have a completely plutonic relationship? If so, try breaking down that barrier a little bit. See if you can work in a somewhat spontaneous kiss while doing all that laundry. If you've alraedy gotten that far, maybe you make a romantic dinner and see if she might be interested in a little more affection that night. Just try to move forward with her slowly. I would guess she will bring up moving in again in the future. Good luck and I hope you succeed.


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## voivod

Jason said:


> @ Voivod, do you guys have a completely plutonic relationship? If so, try breaking down that barrier a little bit. See if you can work in a somewhat spontaneous kiss while doing all that laundry. If you've alraedy gotten that far, maybe you make a romantic dinner and see if she might be interested in a little more affection that night. Just try to move forward with her slowly. I would guess she will bring up moving in again in the future. Good luck and I hope you succeed.


nope, just platonic. no sex, not much in the way of touching. me putting my arm around her, a quick back rub, couple of kisses on the shoulder, stuff like that.

i mean, i'm really taking it easy on imposing my will on her. we had a super good time tonight at the trans siberian orchestra show. i'm building towards something i think and don't wannas upset the apple cart.

i, too, am guessing she is going to bring up moving back in in the relatively near future. i thought tonight might've been the night. no such luck. we'll see.


----------



## Guest

I dont think it will be brought back up until that physical barrier comes down. Your doing this probably in the perfect way. You might be able to reach out for a "nice" kiss and see her reaction. Warning though, she might pull away from a rush of emotions either before a kiss or after. Good luck and taking it slow like you are is the best method. 

Dont rock the apple cart.


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## Sprite

Thanks for the advice on the councelor!

I totally agree with Jason...I think its time to try a little kiss...see what happens and how she reacts. But, only if you feel you can handle the rejection if she isnt as open to it as you would hope.

Good luck!!


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## draconis

lean in 90% and let her come the other 10.

draconis


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## voivod

Jason said:


> I dont think it will be brought back up until that physical barrier comes down. Your doing this probably in the perfect way. You might be able to reach out for a "nice" kiss and see her reaction. Warning though, she might pull away from a rush of emotions either before a kiss or after. Good luck and taking it slow like you are is the best method.
> 
> Dont rock the apple cart.


i have kissed her, a little one on the shoulder/neck area, stuff like that. she didn't pull away then or protest, but i think it was an appropriate kinda kiss.

last night at the christmas concert i kinda slipped my arm around her, kinda teenager sneaky, and sat that way for a significant amount of the show. again, no rejection there. i'm really taking this one catious! sorry.

then, when we got back to her apartment, i said "i'm gonna walk you to the door" and she said, "no, i wanna go to bed, my tummy is hurting."

so i wondered out loud whether she thought i was coming inside.
she didn't respond. i think she thought i was coming inside and was saying she wanted to lay down because she didn't feel well as a meek defense.

either i am hallucinating, or slowly the walls are coming down. you guys know i'm working on building trust. i think i'm only gonna get one chance at getting this right. anything i do physically could hinder that work. as you know, with women, if i miss step and go too far, too fast, "i should have known" if i go too fast or too far!

drac, i'm playing the 90%/10% rule. maybe closer to 50/50, but i'm moving toward 90% when appropriate. you know where i was, so you'll understand my caution.


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> i think i'm only gonna get one chance at getting this right. anything i do physically could hinder that work. as you know, with women, if i miss step and go too far, too fast, "i should have known" if i go too fast or too far!


Wrong, wrong, wrong!

Women - especially if they know you, are not interested in the little details. It's the big picture they see. You can take a few risks. If you consistently don't take risks, she will suspect you are weak!

What's the matter with you? I know! - you think you have too much to loose this time round. In the past you knew you could get away with anything, now you feel worthless. Arrogance is more attractive than cowardice. Sorry mate. 

You need to decide who you are, real quick. You are being disingenuous - it does not suit you.


----------



## draconis

MarkTwain said:


> Wrong, wrong, wrong!
> 
> Women - especially if they know you, are not interested in the little details. It's the big picture they see. You can take a few risks. If you consistently don't take risks, she will suspect you are weak!
> 
> What's the matter with you? I know! - you think you have too much to loose this time round. In the past you knew you could get away with anything, now you feel worthless. Arrogance is more attractive than cowardice. Sorry mate.
> 
> You need to decide who you are, real quick. You are being disingenuous - it does not suit you.


It is the matter of safety vs risk/reward. 

Going to far could cost him everything, and no offense MT but I would bet he knows his wife better then you do.

Could your method work faster, maybe, however only he can decide when or if it is worth the risk. 

draconis


----------



## voivod

ok drac and mark twain,

wrap your brains around this and advise please...

when we met, i was a cocky S.O.B. especially in our relationships.

beth hated that outwardly, but i think she was attracted to internally. back then she would've jumped on a grenade for me. 

of course she was much younger, less mature then (hell she was a 18 years old & still in college) so i don't know what that was about.

if i roll the dice, the risk:reward ratio is not real good becase as you said MT, i have too much to lose. that's my perception bud, i've worked too hard to get to this point to blow it all up.

drac, on the other hand, i'll get my answers pretty quick that way. is this what patience is all about?

feedback?


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## MarkTwain

Well, the real kicker is, that the guy she wants is probably the arrogant swine, not the lap dawg.

But now you can be the reconstructed bad boy! - The best of both worlds. Swagger like a young buck, but respect her like a queen.

If you play it too safe, you run another risk. The risk of failing to ignite her fire. Maybe it's them pills you're taking...


----------



## Sprite

Hmmm, Im not so sure she wants "the arrogant swine" as you put it MarkTwain... I don't know any woman that actually wants that. And right now, I am sure Beth IS looking at the small details.

And Drac is right...you know your wife better than anyone and how she will react. If the time is not right...dont do it...you will know when you should reach out to her that way or not.

I like the idea of the 90/10 approach..but make it a little more on her side too...maybe 80/20...just my opinion! If she still feels it, she will meet you there


----------



## Guest

I wouldn't change a thing your doing. If you change your demeanor, she will flinch. That would be a very very bad thing to do. Stay to who you are now and keep with it. I would bet that she is having feelings again but is viewing herself as the one with all the risk at stake. However, from what your sensing, the walls are coming down. You could be a little bold and provide an opportunity for a kiss. Timing and spontaneous moments would be best. If it doesn't happen then hold on for the next try. My guess is it will happen and when it does don't lose control and push to far. Just a nice kiss and let it be. If you start rounding for homeplate you'll scare the crap out of her (maybe).


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## swedish

I'm with Sprite and Jason on this one...I think the best way to read her is through direct eye contact...when you are both relaxed and enjoying each other's company...if she looks at you lovingly when you look at her like she's the best thing on this planet, she's probably got that tingly feeling...only so much of that before she will want to kiss you.


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## MarkTwain

The thing you're all forgetting is that the way voivod has been behaving is not the "normal" voivod. For 20 years, he's been a shoot from the hip kinda guy. Surely that was the man Beth fell in love with.

And you're all missing my nuances. NUANCES!

I'm saying that in his maturity, he can temper his machoness with tenderness and respect. But tenderness on it's own is not alluring - not to a woman who is used to the other stuff.


----------



## voivod

swedish said:


> I'm with Sprite and Jason on this one...I think the best way to read her is through direct eye contact...when you are both relaxed and enjoying each other's company...if she looks at you lovingly when you look at her like she's the best thing on this planet, she's probably got that tingly feeling...only so much of that before she will want to kiss you.


ha! i'll guarantee you swedish, that i'll know that look when i see it. if i do, i'm in! i'm just PATIENTLY waiting for that.


----------



## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> The thing you're all forgetting is that the way voivod has been behaving is not the "normal" voivod. For 20 years, he's been a shoot from the hip kinda guy. Surely that was the man Beth fell in love with.
> 
> And you're all missing my nuances. NUANCES!
> 
> I'm saying that in his maturity, he can temper his machoness with tenderness and respect. But tenderness on it's own is not alluring - not to a woman who is used to the other stuff.


MT
i'm not sure whether i could pull off the shoot from the hip thing right now. i've been such a pacifist for a couple of months, and that seems to have gotten me where i am. i think she might relate the swagger to the boozin', fightin' me. thoughts?


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## Guest

voivod said:


> i think she might relate the swagger to the boozin', fightin' me. thoughts?


I couldnt agree more.


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## voivod

Jason said:


> I couldnt agree more.


okay, one vote for staying the course.


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## draconis

voivod said:


> ok drac and mark twain,
> 
> wrap your brains around this and advise please...
> 
> when we met, i was a cocky S.O.B. especially in our relationships.
> 
> beth hated that outwardly, but i think she was attracted to internally. back then she would've jumped on a grenade for me.
> 
> of course she was much younger, less mature then (hell she was a 18 years old & still in college) so i don't know what that was about.
> 
> if i roll the dice, the risk:reward ratio is not real good becase as you said MT, i have too much to lose. that's my perception bud, i've worked too hard to get to this point to blow it all up.
> 
> drac, on the other hand, i'll get my answers pretty quick that way. is this what patience is all about?
> 
> feedback?


I make hard choices for my store all the time. But I look for what I figure are safe bets, rarely do I get burned with them. With your patience you are in a continual mode of building what you have that she loves about you. The more you build the more of a chance you could have things as you want them.

If the day after she moved out you made it a deal breaker for her to come back, no matter how you approached it how good do you think your chances would have been? If you asked today, would they be better?

If they are better today and the chances of it getting better yet are there, then yes you continue your path until you feel the time is right.

Another notion here, how would you have handled it mentally after she moved out if she would have detached herself or rejected your offer? How well could you handle it today?

You see in my opinion time has been the best factor for you. If you rush it because you want an answer, you might not get the one you are looking for. I have seen you grow thru all this right from the very beginning. You continue to grow. I am sure she sees it too.

MT is right in a way, women in general are attracted to that bad boy type, but that isn't the type they want to marry and if they do they want to change them into the type of man you are now.

As for the 90/10 thing it was off a will smith movie where he was a dating guru. I can't remember the name but it was really good.

All I can say is how I'd act in your situation. I can read my wife really well after ten years. I'd know the right moment, I hope better than anyone else. So I'd look for the right moment and say what I wanted in an innocent way. Not to pushy but in a moment that I felt comfortable with what was going on.

draconis


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## voivod

drac--
y'know, the more i think about it, the more i think that i should take the slow, steady, patient road. it IS working for me. and i pondered what i would say to her if she asked me to moved back in the night of the concert. i think my heart would desperately WANT to say yes, but i think the right thing would be if we sat down beforehand and charted out the things that drove her to the point of separation, and i spent some time making sure those wounds could heal. of course that sounds like big talk, but i think intellectually, that would make being together much more fulfilling.


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## MarkTwain

Alright then... 

Go down the road of the easily digestible meal. but don't forget to season it with pepper and SALT, or it will be bland. 

"Ye are the salt of the earth..."


----------



## draconis

voivod said:


> drac--
> y'know, the more i think about it, the more i think that i should take the slow, steady, patient road. it IS working for me. and i pondered what i would say to her if she asked me to moved back in the night of the concert. i think my heart would desperately WANT to say yes, but i think the right thing would be if we sat down beforehand and charted out the things that drove her to the point of separation, and i spent some time making sure those wounds could heal. of course that sounds like big talk, but i think intellectually, that would make being together much more fulfilling.


Atleast you know you are not doing harm, You continue to grow everyday I talk with you.

draconis


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> Alright then...
> 
> Go down the road of the easily digestible meal. but don't forget to season it with pepper and SALT, or it will be bland.
> 
> "Ye are the salt of the earth..."


never been bland before. ye hits me where it hurts, MT.


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## voivod

just got back from sitting in beths living room while she told me stories of her day at work. gosh, it was so much like the old days. then she asked if i was cooking for thanksgiving this year. she said she didn't want to go to her mom's. gosh, i don't know where this is going, but it's been a hell of a ride.

and now this morning she's texting me asking if i need help paying my truck insurance. what gives??


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## draconis

obviously she cares still.

draconis


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## voivod

but drac, i can't even respond to her. if i say yeah i could use the help on insurance, that might be a bad sign for her. lucky for me i have it auto withdrawn from my bank. but it's a pretty big number. and isn't it funny, it only comes due every six months. she's got a calender in her head!


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## MarkTwain

voivod-

I think you're going to succeed no mater what you do! So you may as well relax and just be yourself. 

The only issue I see is how you will feel in a years time when you look back. Will you cringe at your slightly timid behavior? Perhaps in your mind you are thinking: She is the one who left you, so she should be the one to make the running about coming back.

If you could drop a few hints, perhaps she would feel wanted. Do you think she is on to you? Do you think she suspects you are deliberately playing it cool for fear of loosing her?

Sorry I'm just rambling here - You're on the home run now. 

​


----------



## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> voivod-
> 
> I think you're going to succeed no mater what you do! So you may as well relax and just be yourself.
> 
> The only issue I see is how you will feel in a years time when you look back. Will you cringe at your slightly timid behavior?


nope. i have plenty of outlets for my testosterone. remember, i'm a car salesman. we get to tell people all day long "where to go."
i'm kidding, the customer is always right. hahaha.




MarkTwain said:


> Perhaps in your mind you are thinking: She is the one who left you, so she should be the one to make the running about coming back.


nah, but wouldn't THAT be cool?



MarkTwain said:


> If you could drop a few hints, perhaps she would feel wanted. Do you think she is on to you? Do you think she suspects you are deliberately playing it cool for fear of loosing her?


hints? yep, i'm getting there.

her suspicions??? maybe she's "onto me." but that's okay. i think that would be an internal admission to herself that i CAN will myself to make the adjustments necessary.




MarkTwain said:


> Sorry I'm just rambling here - You're on the home run now.
> 
> ​


why the sudden confidence??? i wish i had that.


----------



## Guest

MT is kinda right on letting her know your feelings for her. I have to ask, does she know how you feel about her? Maybe it is time to profess your still interested in a long term relationship.


----------



## draconis

voivod said:


> but drac, i can't even respond to her. if i say yeah i could use the help on insurance, that might be a bad sign for her. lucky for me i have it auto withdrawn from my bank. but it's a pretty big number. and isn't it funny, it only comes due every six months. she's got a calender in her head!



My wife is like that too, a walking calander, birthday reminder, and phone book all rolled into one. Plus she can program my VCR for me..lol.

The fact is that she is always showing you that she cares, and is always thinking of you.

As for playing it cool, I hope she doesn't think it is an "act". She wants that person, that you have become. You have only become more aware of the important things because of this. As for the right timing, maybe Thanksgiving will give you a chance.

draconis


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## voivod

drac--

it's all good. it's not an act. in fact i just posted on another thread, something about drinking. something like, "go figure, 6 month of not drinking makes me wonder what i ever did it for." point is, i'm not acting. these changes are becoming real.

m22--
sure hope you're right. just had a really funny conversation on the phone with her about nutrition/donuts. laugh out loud stuff. i could hear her smiling. and she works in close proximity with other girls. and one of them thinks i'm "sweet." so hopefully she got a chance to reflect on "what's so funny" with her friends. another eye opener for her, i hope.


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## draconis

I think she just wants to make sure it isn't an act. Proof that all this will continue after she moves back in. The better you.

Thanksgiving....

draconis


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## voivod

i think she's enjoying seeing me take care of myself now. i also think she's a little bit stubborn. i might not get to that point as soon as you think, but, that lease she signed....


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## draconis

voivod said:


> i think she's enjoying seeing me take care of myself now. i also think she's a little bit stubborn. i might not get to that point as soon as you think, but, that lease she signed....


The lease she signed gave her options including going back with you...

draconis


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## MarkTwain

voivod-

I've kinda reached the point where I don't want to interfere with you any more, as you're doing so well...

But one thing I have learnt about women is they hate to feel silly or helpless. So for instance, if she feels it "looks like" she is backed into a corner by her lease ending (with no choice but to move back in with you, due to the shear expenditure of it all), then she could feel a bit defeated. She will be at the mercy of events, not controlling them.

This could be your chance to help her avoid that, and help your own cause as well. Why not say "Beth, I hope you're not planning on renewing that lease". If she decides to move back in - it was her choice, not her consolation prize.

Think about it...


----------



## voivod

m22--i'm on the same page as you. she still loves me. but i get the feeling that i'm rolling the dice with her if i push her to have a "back together" conversation. i don't think i want to give her the opportunity to shoot me down. i don't think i have the energy to get up from that.

drac--
i think with the lease, she's leaving herself with very few options. you think???

mt--i'm sure in her case the "looking silly" thing has played out in her head. i wonder if she has put herself in a bad position if she had confided to someone that she was "done" with me. maybe she'd look silly if she changed her mind. i'm not saying she did this, but i know how girls talk.


----------



## draconis

By the sounds of what you have said from your office, it doesn't sound like she talked negative about you at all.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> By the sounds of what you have said from your office, it doesn't sound like she talked negative about you at all.
> 
> draconis


no, strangely enough drac, i think i'm held in pretty high regard at her work.


----------



## draconis

voivod said:


> no, strangely enough drac, i think i'm held in pretty high regard at her work.


If I wasn't clear that is what I meant, and since your are held by the information she provides them, what does that say? If I were a betting man I'd say she talks well about you.

draconis


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> i get the feeling that i'm rolling the dice with her if i push her to have a "back together" conversation. i don't think i want to give her the opportunity to shoot me down. i don't think i have the energy to get up from that.


These are your own words. I am not you, but I get the feeling that you would get a huge benefit if you could gain courage in this area. Maybe you could just pray about it - nothing more.


----------



## brighteyes72

I just joined and found this thread compelling. Let me ask this. Have you, vovod, seen any progress, real progress, since this started? Because I don't read much into what I've read. Maybe time to change gears. If you're not progressing, you're failing.


----------



## voivod

brighteyes72 said:


> I just joined and found this thread compelling. Let me ask this. Have you, vovod, seen any progress, real progress, since this started? Because I don't read much into what I've read. Maybe time to change gears. If you're not progressing, you're failing.


i changed gears on may 19th. things were going so well, my wife called my sister in arizona to say she thought she was having second thoughts about leaving. then i pulled a bonehead financial move (to protect myself) and it blew up in my face. if you would have heard the way my wife cried each time (when she discovered i drank the beer and when i didn't deposit a check she was counting on) you'd know i hurt her. so bad she decided to leave.

i know it doesn't look like i'm progressing, but it doesn't feel like failure.


----------



## voivod

so last night i went over to beth's to pick up a charger for my cell phone. she was real nice, again, acting like the GOOD ol' days, really clickin'. as i'm leaving she's playing peek a boo with the kitty through the window with me real cute like, and a big ol' smile on her face. we can do this! it can be good again. have i hurt her so bad that she's never gonna be willing to let down the walls?


----------



## NikiVicious

voivod said:


> i think she's enjoying seeing me take care of myself now. i also think she's a little bit stubborn. i might not get to that point as soon as you think, but, that lease she signed....



She is absolutely stubborn!! And for good reason. She is being a strong woman. I believe she knows you can handle it. You've shown this much, this far. 

If she is doing the flirt games with you like old times. You know those are great signs! 

You are showing that you are self reliant, emotionally, mentally and physically. Do not break that deal  that is what is keeping you afloat. 

My thoughts are with you voi!


----------



## swedish

If my solid brick wall came down, hers will too...I think hers is made of glass...she might not be letting it down yet but she can peek through it and smile...if she was void of emotion it would take much longer to break through.


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## draconis

:iagree: with both of the above.

draconis


----------



## voivod

i have decided to use our wedding anniversary (next tuesday 11/25) to ask my wife to reconsider her decision to separate. i'm scared to death. my fear is a negative answer might put some finality to our life together. i certainly don't want that. how should i do it? what should i say? am i doing it too soon?


----------



## voivod

mommy22 said:


> Please don't look at it as she moves in now or "finality". In saying that in your post you may subconciously be seeing this as an ultimatum. You don't want everything you've worked so hard to accomplish go down the drain in an instant. Go into it thinking: If she says yes-- great! If she says I'm not quite ready, then she will be soon. She's shown that she loves you.


how has she shown me that???




mommy22 said:


> and wants to be with you. You see progression. Don't let your stubborn side rule you.
> If you decide to do it, no games. Don't make it false by trying to be someone you're not. Just lay it out there. Tell her how much you miss her and the two of you being together. Sincerity goes a long way. Be confident. If you go into it all wishy-washy, it may be perceived by her that you're not yet ready. If you really go into it feeling like you can stand on your own two feet either way, she'll be much more open to the idea.
> If she doesn't feel pressured into a decision, she's not going to be thinking "finality". Trust your gut.



better than that. my 11 yr old daughter, who has been most emotionally affected by this, told me tonight that mom told her she needs some "time."

daughter said "it's not fair mom, we didn't get a say in the matter."

mom said, "i just need some time honey."

so i'm on the right track i think. only way i could screw this up is to push it.


----------



## Sprite

Coming from a woman who is on the opposite end of your situation...I would suggest do NOT push it. 

Things seem to be going so well, and if she needs time....you need to be able to give her as much time as she feels she needs.

I think for your anniversary, you should get her "the right garbage bags"...this will show her that even though she didnt think you were hearing her for all those years...you really were. Being on the recieving end..I would take that kind of gift as a "I am listening(not just hearing) to you now".

Patience and time is the only thing that will allow her wall to come down.


----------



## Sprite

voivod said:


> drac--
> y'know, the more i think about it, the more i think that i should take the slow, steady, patient road. it IS working for me. and i pondered what i would say to her if she asked me to moved back in the night of the concert. i think my heart would desperately WANT to say yes, but i think the right thing would be if we sat down beforehand and charted out the things that drove her to the point of separation, and i spent some time making sure those wounds could heal. of course that sounds like big talk, but i think intellectually, that would make being together much more fulfilling.



You are dead on right here! By talking the situation out shows her you really do care what the reasons were for her leaving. No matter how small they may seem to you, things have built up over the years and its not easy for her to let go.

I dont know how to reply to several posts using a quote...so I am going to take up some space here and do some catching up with my 2 cents!


----------



## Sprite

voivod said:


> so last night i went over to beth's to pick up a charger for my cell phone. she was real nice, again, acting like the GOOD ol' days, really clickin'. as i'm leaving she's playing peek a boo with the kitty through the window with me real cute like, and a big ol' smile on her face. we can do this! it can be good again. have i hurt her so bad that she's never gonna be willing to let down the walls?


Her flirting with you in this way is a very good thing!!!

I think the approach you are taking right now is exactly what you should be doing. Take it slow, and don't push. When the time is right you will know it.

You can not put a time limit on when the walls will come down, or even if they will completely. Remember it has been a year since my husband has changed and my walls are still there. I am waiting for the old him to show up at any minute and it keeps me on the defensive. This may be part of the reason for her not letting you in completely just yet. She may be thinking in the back of her mind that if she does move back in with you(and trust me..she has thought about it although she may never admit it to you) things will go back to the way they used to be and she will not allow herself to go through that again. She is not ready for that! 

Keep taking it slow, be her friend for now. Joke, laugh, have a good time, and be there for her whenever she may need you. When the time is right, you will know it. But time, time, time and patience, patience, patience! Those are your best friends right now(even though we may hate it..it is what is needed now)!

When exactly does her lease expire? That would be a perfect excuse to ask her to move in..because it would make financial sense. But dont ask her to move in....suggest it to her. This way she wont feel pressured to have to give you a yes or no answer. Just present it to her as "something to think about".

I personally would not bring it up to her over the holidays. This is your first year seperated during these times and women some times tend to get a little emotional and sentimental around the holidays. This may work to your favor.

It wont be easy for you, but I have faith in you that you can handle this and eventually things will all work out. Just...time...patience...and prayer(if you are a praying man). But don't pray for yourself and that she will move back in..pray for her..pray that she will be able to let go of the wall and come to terms with what has happened in the past and what can happen in the future with you.

I wish you all the luck in the world!!!!!


----------



## voivod

Sprite said:


> When exactly does her lease expire?


i think it was worded "the end of november" hand written on the contract. remember i caught a fleeting glance at it. it was sitting on top of her microwave.



Sprite said:


> That would be a perfect excuse to ask her to move in..because it would make financial sense. But dont ask her to move in....suggest it to her. This way she wont feel pressured to have to give you a yes or no answer. Just present it to her as "something to think about".


yeah, that sounds like the right way to handle it. i think i'm still gonna have to tread lightly around the situation. she takes stuff like that as me being controlling.


Sprite said:


> I personally would not bring it up to her over the holidays. This is your first year seperated during these times and women some times tend to get a little emotional and sentimental around the holidays. This may work to your favor.


i have sensed a bit of depression and emotional from her the past couple of days. her way to handle things when she gets emotional is to move fast through small decisions and be a little less attentive, kinda like "it doesn't matter."

strangely enough, i too, have felt a little emotional lately. i cried by myself for the first time in weeks yesterday.



Sprite said:


> It wont be easy for you, but I have faith in you that you can handle this and eventually things will all work out. Just...time...patience...and prayer(if you are a praying man). But don't pray for yourself and that she will move back in..pray for her..pray that she will be able to let go of the wall and come to terms with what has happened in the past and what can happen in the future with you.


eventually...time..patience...all the things i am ill equipped to handle. i've bee trying, and i will continue to.

i became quite a "praying man" september 2nd (visit from God, no kidding, it was REAL) and my prayers have always been about peace for my kids, softening of my wifes heart, blessing for everyone in my family, and a miracle. i don't think i ever prayed for me. except to give me the strength to endure this.


----------



## Sprite

hmm, ok if he lease is up in November, im not sure if anything I said makes sense. Dont do it over the holidays...dont be pushy...take it slow...well, it is november now so that kind of puts a crook in that road. Does the lease she have now allow her to do a month to month basis? or does it have to be for so many months at a time? 
If she can get a month to month lease that would work best because then you could wait til after the holidays and there would be no added pressure...even if its a 6 month lease, it will work, you would just need to wait longer. Has she said anything about her renewing it or moving? that might give you a clue as to what SHE is looking for. If she says something along the llines of "I am not sure what I am going to do now"...that is your cue to suggest it...ya know.."to help each other out financially", and throw a line in there about how you would really love for her to move back in and see her everyday...nothing too mushy tho, it might scare her away. She just might be waiting for you to come up with a solution that works for both of you....but she doesnt want to be the one to suggest it. You can point out to her how you think it makes sense...and remind her that the kids would probably love it too. You will probably have to set some guidelines....like who is going to sleep where..what is expected of each other...stuff like that, but I am sure you already thought of that. If you had an extra room at your place that would be great...you could offer her her own room. Hey I have an idea....and this would work for me in a heartbeat. Maybe instead of suggesting she move in....how about you suggest that you all...the whole family.. can wake up in the same house for christmas morning.. ask her if she is up for a sleep over with the kids..then she will be able to get a better idea of the "new you" by being there all day. 
Just dont be discouraged if she signs a new lease...and if her place is bigger than yours....ask her if you could all spend the night at her place christmas eve.


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## voivod

Sprite said:


> Her flirting with you in this way is a very good thing!!!
> 
> I think the approach you are taking right now is exactly what you should be doing. Take it slow, and don't push. When the time is right you will know it.
> 
> You can not put a time limit on when the walls will come down, or even if they will completely. Remember it has been a year since my husband has changed and my walls are still there. I am waiting for the old him to show up at any minute and it keeps me on the defensive. This may be part of the reason for her not letting you in completely just yet. She may be thinking in the back of her mind that if she does move back in with you(and trust me..she has thought about it although she may never admit it to you) things will go back to the way they used to be and she will not allow herself to go through that again. She is not ready for that!
> 
> Keep taking it slow, be her friend for now. Joke, laugh, have a good time, and be there for her whenever she may need you. When the time is right, you will know it. But time, time, time and patience, patience, patience! Those are your best friends right now(even though we may hate it..it is what is needed now)!
> 
> When exactly does her lease expire? That would be a perfect excuse to ask her to move in..because it would make financial sense. But dont ask her to move in....suggest it to her. This way she wont feel pressured to have to give you a yes or no answer. Just present it to her as "something to think about".
> 
> I personally would not bring it up to her over the holidays. This is your first year seperated during these times and women some times tend to get a little emotional and sentimental around the holidays. This may work to your favor.
> 
> It wont be easy for you, but I have faith in you that you can handle this and eventually things will all work out. Just...time...patience...and prayer(if you are a praying man). But don't pray for yourself and that she will move back in..pray for her..pray that she will be able to let go of the wall and come to terms with what has happened in the past and what can happen in the future with you.
> 
> I wish you all the luck in the world!!!!!


yeah, i thought she was flirting, or at least "flirty."

i don't think the time is right yet. i'm not trying to avoid it. i just want things to be right.

walls..they're there. i know it. which is why she said to my daughter "time."

time and patience. agreed. both have been good to me.

and i think i am going to let the holidays pass. makes sense.


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## voivod

Jason said:


> MT is kinda right on letting her know your feelings for her. I have to ask, does she know how you feel about her? Maybe it is time to profess your still interested in a long term relationship.


i'm sure she knows. all that stuff i posted about her being my guardian angel, the sweetest person on the planet, etc. i told her that stuff when i came out of my medical tailspin. she's proven that her memory is pretty good! hasn't she?

plus. i had a good long talk with my daughter this morning about their conversation regarding "time." it's starting to make a little sense.


----------



## voivod

then we went over today to pick up my daughter's report card (i guess she has to take it back to school) and she stood there at the front door with the kitty in her hands and wouldn't even invite us in. wtf?

she called later this evening apologizing for being too tired and that she was watching this tv show that she really like and "good night i'll see you tomorrow" which is cool. i just wanted to be invited in. whatever.


----------



## draconis

Some people just want that space or sometimes need it. Today when I got home my wife I am sure could habe used more time with me but a cold that effects my MD I was so drained. I really didn't want to seem stand offish either, I am sure that I did, maybe I should tell her I am sorry too....

draconis


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## MarkTwain

No doubt whatever you say to your daughter gets straight back to her, so she must know what you want anyway. So all you need is to make a clear but low-pressure statement, and let her consider.


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## voivod

she's considering, based on what 11 yr old daughter is saying. actually 11 yr old says, mom said "i need some time." sorta reassured ny daughter that there was gonna be a chance. does that sound good or am i reading too much into it??

i'm used to being in limbo. i'm waiting for the opportune time, but i'm ready to offer.


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## NikiVicious

I understand wanting to be invited in...usually she does invite you in, right?
I know where you are is very difficult. You want to feel and be loved. She is still applying tough love though. But you crave the love and affection you once had and will have, someday in the future. 
Allow me to be blunt, don't expect affection or companionship just yet. As for asking her for her commitment again to your relationship on your annaversary may not be the best idea. It is a good idea, however to, show signs that you still want it by giving a thoughtful gift or writing her a nice letter. It doesn't mean you have to push her to it by asking her. She will make that choice when she is ready. She already knows you want her back. Remain optimistic. But don't push your optimism on her. Remain self reliant, but don't expect her to throw in the towel. Get my drift?


----------



## voivod

NikiVicious said:


> I understand wanting to be invited in...usually she does invite you in, right?


yes. in fact i usually just walk in, as does she when she comes over here.



NikiVicious said:


> you crave the love and affection you once had and will have, someday in the future.


geez, yes i crave that, as much for validation as anything. plus i wanna know she still "has it in her."



NikiVicious said:


> Allow me to be blunt, don't expect affection or companionship just yet. As for asking her for her commitment again to your relationship on your annaversary may not be the best idea.


affection or companionship...okay, i can understand that. but now it's beginning to feel punative. like she's punishing me. you know the phrase "cut off your nose to spite your face?" she's missing what could be some great moments for affection! and i have kinda shelved the idea of asking her to come back on our anniversary. i nice card, a gift is all that i have planned.


NikiVicious said:


> It is a good idea, however to, show signs that you still want it by giving a thoughtful gift or writing her a nice letter. It doesn't mean you have to push her to it by asking her. She will make that choice when she is ready. She already knows you want her back. Remain optimistic. But don't push your optimism on her. Remain self reliant, but don't expect her to throw in the towel. Get my drift?


i waver between optimism and pessimism. i hafta tell you, these forums have become flat out depressing at times. i never knew how many bad things were going on out there! and it seems like beth has read them all and when i've done something like what has been posted by someone else, it's amazing how she always take the course of action suggested by the best advisor/poster! is she really that smart?!?! and i've been one of the guys that has gone into full repair mode. i mean, i've tended to and mended a lot of fences for myself.

niki, why do you think it's not a good idea to use the anniversary to ask her???


----------



## NikiVicious

voivod said:


> affection or companionship...okay, i can understand that. but now it's beginning to feel punative. like she's punishing me.


I wouldn't doubt that either. You've been seperated since may right? You have to understand, yes she is strong, yes she is being tough. But its her emotions that are in repair as well. its her hike up the long road as well! I know that on here, we talk to you, voi. Not beth. But Based on some things you've mentioned, she is isnt showing you hate or resentment or negativity. Her defense mechanism is in play. Whether or not you want to call that punishment, it is what it is. She was broken. The only way I can analyze her is via your statements and my current situation. (Although I've expressed much more resentment and dislike for my husband) Keep that in mind. 

The glass is half full. She doesn't even have to have you for dinner or to watch movies if she doesnt want to. She could be bashing you or hanging up on the phone and calling you names. Since, to my knowledge, this is not occuring, the glass is half FULL. You are absolutely going in the right direction, and yet you wonder why, after this long, you are still in limbo. of course you are going to feel a little pessimism at times! Just know she is not making it worse than it needs to be although you feel she may be sometimes. 

Based on your first post, your old habits were going on for years and years. YEARS VOI! Whats a few months or even a year to the strength your love your marriage is worth and can one day be!! She woke up to it is appropriately applying pressure. The fact that you are willing to work so hard on yourself, is why you have my 100% respect. Forgive my pun, but Balls To The Wall Man!! lol


----------



## voivod

separated since june 20th...

your right niki, the glass is half full. but i hope she understands, the distance in time between then and when is taking it's toll on me. i have really turned a corner in my attitude towards this stupid separation, and my 11 yr old daughter really enlightened me. but come on, i'm thinking...when does this end. and do i end it or does she? who calls the truce?


----------



## voivod

after having this conversation with my daughters, i think i'm gonna leave most of the responsibility for getting back together in her court. 11 yr old says mom "probably feels like you guys ARE together because you spend so much time together and she really seems happy when you are." she reminded me that mom was asking for "time."

that's a little simplistic, but heck, she's 11 years old.

the other side of it is that she's always been "in control" in our relationship. i think that comes from the fact that she felt she "had to" being married to a seemingly self-destructive alcoholic like me. yeah, i know, she's been called codependent too.

i feel much more relaxed about it with that approach. i really hope i'm not missing the boat by not putting my foot down.


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## draconis

Sooner or later you will have the "right time" to bring up the conversation.

"You know honey, the time we have had apart has let me grow as a person and reflect. I really needed tat not only for myself but for us. But as time goes by I feel like I am drifting away from you, and I miss th kids. Maybe it is me gaining my independence, or seeing you gain yours. Either way I want to know what the next step is, were do we grow from here?"

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> Sooner or later you will have the "right time" to bring up the conversation.
> 
> draconis


thanks draconis. then why do i go through these crazy moments of anxiety about it. i mean, i'm pretty confident that what you say is true. i don't have mental pictures in my head of my wife with someone else, she doesn't talk trash to me or about me, she treats me generally pretty nice. sometimes i wish she wouldn't "try" so hard to distance herself, just take the good stuff and expand that. but i am pretty confident that we're gonna be okay. why do i catch myself kinda "freaking out" about the future?


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## chilimichigan

Vovoid - we freak out because we do not know. We may have confidence that when we come out the other side everything will be, not as it was before, but still a happy ending and possibly stronger for having gotten through it together; but the uncertainty kills us. Just wake up and smile every day knowing that you are alive and she is still there.


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## voivod

chilimichigan said:


> Vovoid - we freak out because we do not know...the uncertainty kills us. Just wake up and smile every day knowing that you are alive and she is still there.


like today, i'm letting the fact that she couldn't go to lunch with me eat me alive! i just found out i got hired at this totally rockin' car dealership (i sold cars before my stroke, and made buttloads of money, 6-figures in this town you can live pretty good on. i'd think she'd be jacked up about that). so i'm sitting around here bumming out because she did something else for lunch. i have no reason to be jealous or apprehensive, but here i sit, anxiety built up.

i understand that she may have had plans or whatever. but i'm so wrapped up in making sure things are going well that when the don't go in this fantasy world perfect order, i'm all screwed up about it.


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## LovesMyHUbby

Wow as I read this story I see so much of my past situation in it but I am on the wife end my husbands drinkin was very out of control to the point where there were multiple times I thought he was going to die there were many broken promises that he would stop he was very emotionally and verbally abusive to me I left him twice the first Time was just due to my anger at the situation I got back with him the first time trying to comprimise the drinking like saying ok only once a week and you can't be that way to me well that worked but it eventually went right bak to the same way! The second time was because I learned that I could not make him change and was to hurtful to watch my husband kill himself and our marriage I didn't come back until he stopped drinking and went to AA and dv classes well he did all that and now is also 76 days sober the point of all this is to show your wife that you love her and your family but most importantly yourself !! Just keep up with it! This is not a easy thing to go through and also I am sorry to hear what you went through with the stroke ! Hope things get better for you


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## voivod

LovesMyHUbby said:


> Wow as I read this story I see so much of my past situation in it but I am on the wife end my husbands drinkin was very out of control to the point where there were multiple times I thought he was going to die there were many broken promises that he would stop he was very emotionally and verbally abusive to me I left him twice the first Time was just due to my anger at the situation I got back with him the first time trying to comprimise the drinking like saying ok only once a week and you can't be that way to me well that worked but it eventually went right bak to the same way! The second time was because I learned that I could not make him change and was to hurtful to watch my husband kill himself and our marriage I didn't come back until he stopped drinking and went to AA and dv classes well he did all that and now is also 76 days sober the point of all this is to show your wife that you love her and your family but most importantly yourself !! Just keep up with it! This is not a easy thing to go through and also I am sorry to hear what you went through with the stroke ! Hope things get better for you


i think my wife is past chance one and two. i hope there is a three. and thanks for your sentiment regarding my stroke. believe me when i say this though. it was a blessing from God. it saved my life.


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## draconis

voivod said:


> . why do i catch myself kinda "freaking out" about the future?



In all honesty, I would too. It is normal when you don't feel like you are in control of your own life, your own destiny.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> In all honesty, I would too. It is normal when you don't feel like you are in control of your own life, your own destiny.
> 
> draconis



drac--i have been keeping a journal. the thing i'm finding is when our contact is limited or when she is short with me, i fall into a anxious depressed kinda state.

then, like a half an hour ago, when we talk, even if it's about something trivial, and she seems happy, i feel good. i'm sure my counselor would have something to say about that.

all this week she's been busy and it's been difficult to get an entire conversation in with her before she says "i gotta go." i suppose that leads to that feeling too. 

anyway, read a couple of "hopeful" posts here and had a "nice" conversation, and i'm feeling better about things.


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## draconis

Well I guess that is anarea that you can work on, knowing what makes you struggle. Do you still hit the gym? Maybe on the days you feel a bit down exercise could help sooth some of it.

draconis


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## swedish

:iagree:

and here's some silver lining for you regarding the anxiety...I linked mine to increasing around PMS time...every dang time...so be happy you're a man and at least your hormones don't go haywire every month!!


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## MarkTwain

Not so fast *swedish*!!!

My hormones follow my wife's cycle. I used to be able to tell when her period was due. I got confused after the babies were born though.

I can tell when she is ovulating though - I can't keep my hands off her. It's going to be interesting when all that cycle stuff stops in a few years - she is 46. Hopefully she will just be horny 24/7 - 365, and I will have nothing to worry about


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## voivod

HA! if it's any indication that i'm keping track of HER moods, in my journal, i've been almost dead on to her dates of her monthly cycle. there is a correlation between her time and her attitude. been that way for years. i used to DREAD her period. maybe not as much as she did, but...


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## draconis

I always dread that time of month, not that my wife gets mouthy but she gets extremely tired.

draconis


----------



## Guest

NikiVicious said:


> I wouldn't doubt that either. You've been seperated since may right? You have to understand, yes she is strong, yes she is being tough. But its her emotions that are in repair as well. its her hike up the long road as well! I know that on here, we talk to you, voi. Not beth. But Based on some things you've mentioned, she is isnt showing you hate or resentment or negativity. Her defense mechanism is in play. Whether or not you want to call that punishment, it is what it is. She was broken. The only way I can analyze her is via your statements and my current situation. (Although I've expressed much more resentment and dislike for my husband) Keep that in mind.
> 
> The glass is half full. She doesn't even have to have you for dinner or to watch movies if she doesnt want to. She could be bashing you or hanging up on the phone and calling you names. Since, to my knowledge, this is not occuring, the glass is half FULL. You are absolutely going in the right direction, and yet you wonder why, after this long, you are still in limbo. of course you are going to feel a little pessimism at times! Just know she is not making it worse than it needs to be although you feel she may be sometimes.
> 
> Based on your first post, your old habits were going on for years and years. YEARS VOI! Whats a few months or even a year to the strength your love your marriage is worth and can one day be!! She woke up to it is appropriately applying pressure. The fact that you are willing to work so hard on yourself, is why you have my 100% respect. Forgive my pun, but Balls To The Wall Man!! lol


Your statements are 100% on the money. A lot of guys are on here trying to get the results that you put into words so well. All of us are trying to get instant results from a short period of time we feel we have been changing when our significant others have dealt with our BS for so long. 

Very well said Niki.


----------



## voivod

Jason said:


> A lot of guys are on here trying to get the results that you put into words so well. All of us are trying to get instant results from a short period of time we feel we have been changing when our significant others have dealt with our BS for so long.
> 
> Very well said Niki.


jason & niki,

you are both correct and i meant no offense to anyone for making it sound like i was ungrateful about what time i get from my wife. it's just been a gruelingly long time for me. and i don't know how much "improvement" i can make. except,

i had what i believe was a mini-anxiety attack today. kind of a panicky feeling over our regular saturday get together. tomorrow, as has been customary since our honeymoon, we are supposed to get together for our college's football game. we missed one in eight years (i had a hockey tournament) and then never have missed another. for some reason, i got a little skittish this afternoon thinking, for some reason, that she was gonna bow out. so i called her tonight (as i usually do day before a game) and asked her what football munchie she wants. she usually opts for fruit or melon. so today she said there is no wrong answer. i asked if she wants to watch it here or at her place, she said she'd decide tomorrow.

so my point is...i still have some impovement to do. i just gotta recognize it. like work on unfounded anxiety, caused by self esteem things.


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## draconis

The other thing is patience....Will you have improved greatly and continue to do so, the one thing she is looking for is how you will be long term, not just what you can do short term.

I have always been in some low level management all my adulthood. Thing is I never judged an employee just because he seemed like a hard worker for the first 30 days and sometime the first 90. Many want to make the first 30-90 days seem like they are a great worker, some however know that if they can work for this long the impression that they start is the one the employer keeps even if they slack off.

Your wife might be just that way too, waiting and making sure you don't backslide.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis,
remember when we talked about your father in law? he was sober for how long? years, right? then he backslid. well, i don't see myself "being patient" that long. plus, if she waits to make sure i don't backslide, how long is long enough???


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## draconis

The first time was 2 years then over 18 years the second time.

As far as your wife is concerned, I don't think it will be too long. The Job (yours) might be the thing she was waiting on to see how you handle mundane stress.

draconis


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## voivod

back to kind hearted beth. she was sweet tonight. invited me to kung fu panda. a real movie date!


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## voivod

and to top it off, i got that job i wanted!!!


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## draconis

We recently bought Kung fu panda for the kids, great movie. And congrats on the job.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> The first time was 2 years then over 18 years the second time.
> 
> draconis


so drac--

my point is, 18 years, sure something could happen. i could backslide in 18 years. but i doubt it. does that give her reason to wait 18 years to see if i backslide???


----------



## draconis

voivod said:


> so drac--
> 
> my point is, 18 years, sure something could happen. i could backslide in 18 years. but i doubt it. does that give her reason to wait 18 years to see if i backslide???


I think you are reading it wrong.

The fact you can slip, makes her cautiously move. You hurt her and she is letting the trust build again.

I never said she'd wait for 20 years to see. I did say it wouldn't be overnight.

People can temp., fake or hide stuff for a time. Than it gets exposed as time goes by.

She is trying to believe in you. She had many times she could have given up. She didn't. Her love is to great for you to be broken. 

draconis


----------



## voivod

draconis said:


> I think you are reading it wrong.
> 
> The fact you can slip, makes her cautiously move. You hurt her and she is letting the trust build again.
> 
> I never said she'd wait for 20 years to see. I did say it wouldn't be overnight.


no, i'm just trying to take your example of the possibilities, the thing that could happen. yeah, i COULD backslide in 2028. i COULD backslide tomorrow. but there are no hints that i will backslide. and she knows me well enough...


draconis said:


> People can temp., fake or hide stuff for a time. Than it gets exposed as time goes by.


i wear my problems on my sleeve. it i were going to fail, you'd know it by now.


draconis said:


> She is trying to believe in you. She had many times she could have given up. She didn't. Her love is to great for you to be broken.


yeah, i a way, based on the emotions of the day when she flung the ring at me or the day that she called me up and was crying because she thought i let her down and wasn't a "team player," i figured she had given up.

when she called me last night to invite me to kung fu panda, it was so damned sweet. i felt her positive emotions again. i felt like "whoa, maybe this is gonna work itself out."

then today, during the game, we were just like we were in the day when everything seemed good.

i'm hopeful.


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## draconis

I'd be hopeful too. Every step you take brings you closer to her. I think once you start your job things will be much better. You will prove yourself under stress, and peer pressure.

draconis


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## voivod

cool. i start working probably next week. everything is lining up nicely. i'd sure like beth to open up just a little more, y'know, kinda gimme a little confidence toward the future. because i'm ready, man. maybe she's not. i suppose she'll let me know, huh?


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## draconis

SHe'll let you know and future, Maybe it istimeto work on your communication skills. Just a thought.

draconis


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## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> cool. i start working probably next week. everything is lining up nicely.


This is fantastic. It will take your mind of Beth, and you can deliberately see less of her, without the need for an elaborate excuse. Rarer things are more valuable.


----------



## voivod

there seems to be nothing left to "do" except let time pass and continue doing what we have been doing and accept the time she gives me. it just seems that the clock is ticking and nothing is happening. at any time, she could file for divorce and that nightmare would take a life of its own. she has not done so, i just really fear that. being apart for so long has been terribly painful.

we had such fun last night. i just wish it could be like that all the time. the invite to the movie was her idea, and it was so cute. why can't she see that is how our life could be all the time? carefree, fun, alcohol-free. the things she fears or hated about our relationship would not be an issue. i feel like she has just determined that she would be better off without me.


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## draconis

Have you thought about the idea of sitting down with he and putting together a list of what you need to do for her to come back, something so she knows what you want to happen? At the same time let her know you are willing to comply?

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> Have you thought about the idea of sitting down with he and putting together a list of what you need to do for her to come back, something so she knows what you want to happen? At the same time let her know you are willing to comply?
> 
> draconis


have i thought of it? yeah, but doesn't that kinda get in the way of "not talking about the big stuff?" counselor said we should only try to talk about fun stuff and having fun and rebuilding from that standpoint. bringing up big problems from the past would bring up the resentment. discussing the conditions for returning to live with her would ask her to enumerate all the reasons she resents my actions from the past.

just wondering.


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## draconis

Now I have to think.....

draconis


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## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> we had such fun last night. i just wish it could be like that all the time. the invite to the movie was her idea, and it was so cute.


Get a grip man. A woman who is about to divorcee you does not invite you too a movie...


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## draconis

How about asking her what she sees the future hold?

draconis


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> Get a grip man. A woman who is about to divorce you does not invite you too a movie...


yeah, i know. sometimes i'm kind of a boob. i just hate the drama, yet i feed it sometimes. i sure dont want to be overconfident, because last time i did, the damned thing about blew up in my face. but i'm pretty convinced that she has thought things through and has recognized that, although i'm not perfect, i'm a hell of a lot better than i was. maybe she has decided that i may be worth the time after all. i mean, i've heard people say "believe me, if she wanted to pull the plug, she would have by now." and i kinda believe that. i get tons of positive vibes. like when i call for her at work (seldom do i make that call) her co-workers identify me by first name very nicely. i think that as close as she is to her co-workers, i'd get a colder reception than that if there was a bad feeling there.

i've decided sunday is the worst. because it was when i was in the hospital too. she has used sunday as her "decompress day" for a long time. so we rarely see each other much that day. we used to go for a drive on sunday, but as the weather has turned, we end up kinda shut in. 

still i have the things my 11 year old told me about "what mom said" about how she needs time. i'm okay with giving her time. i'm just terribly impatient and lonely.


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## Sprite

Ok..have you ever thought that maybe the reason she didnt invite you in her house that day was because maybe...just maybe..she was feeling vulnerable to you and her emotions and did NOT want to let that come out? Looking at it from the other side of the fence..she might not have trusted herself that day and didn't want to invite you in because she didn't trust herself to keep a little distance between her and you. She is not ready for that intimacy or romance. Does that make sense? Dont take her not inviting you in as a bad thing.

As for what your daughter tells you ..."out of the mouths of babes"!!! Kids have the most simple solution to things that us adults can not see...its amazing!

It seems to me that you might have a small issue when things do not follow "routine". This might be one of the things Beth is looking for a change in. It seems you have a pretty set schedule as far as movie night, taking a sunday drive, the football game, etc. Just let it go!! Part of the reason couples get so "comfortable" with each other is because of routine..it becomes the "norm" and it gets old and stale. Change it up! Sometimes the routine has to be put on hold for other things in life and this is not a bad thing. You should not read too much into it and don't get depressed over it. 

It sounds to me like she is doing to you what I have suggested to you before. She is telling you NO....you have to do the same. you know how it makes you feel when she turns you down for something...make her feel that too. If you turn her down the next time she asks you to do something with her(that is not child related), she will begin to wonder why you said no and it will make her think. As much as it would kill you to tell her no....it might be what is called for here. Just my opinion! The way I see it is this...if she knows you never tell her no to anything, she could ask ANYTHING of you and you would do it in a heartbeat..she knows this....by you telling her NO just one time(over something small) will make her second guess herself and what she is doing and how she is handleing things. It will also show her that you have your own thing to do and are not so dependant on her to fullfil your needs or wants. Think about how it is when you date someone....if you get rejected, doesnt it make you try to work harder for that persons attention? You dont have to work harder, but it may make her feel the need to work harder. As an example of how this would play out....I ask Dan to come to the stables to help me clean the horse stalls..he tells me NO...I am taken back because he has(for the past year about) done everything I have asked of him and he ALWAYS comes with me...so I begin to think..ok, he is pulling away..maybe I need to give in to something so he doesn't slip away completely. Compromise!


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## voivod

sprite, 
i really have made myself awfully avaiable to her. i am trying to find fault in that. when she said she was leaving, i did do the standard beg, cry, rationalize crap that i read is the wrong way to handle things.

now i've settled back in, i'm treating her requests with respect, trying very hard to be the guy i think she wants, it seems like i am being conciliatory with her. she has responded good. as you know we spend a lot of quality time together, and now SHE asks ME out.

i don't really know where i would tell her "no." we've sorta become one over the years. it's easy to be her "right hand" and she my "left hand."


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## Guest

Voivod, Just keep your head in this and dont lose focus. Your a rolemodel to a lot of us and especially me. My wife is in route to a desination 600 miles away to find out who she is and become a stronger person. She says she is doing this, expects me to correct and become a better person myself, so that in a few months we can come back together and finish what we started. She has even talked about going back to the fertility doctor. 

So long story short, your kinda our rock for us all to look up to. Your doing what we wish and pray we can be strong enough to do. I have a a ton of respect for you and admire your strenth. Keep it up!!!


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## voivod

Jason said:


> Voivod, Just keep your head in this and dont lose focus. Your a rolemodel to a lot of us and especially me. My wife is in route to a desination 600 miles away to find out who she is and become a stronger person. She says she is doing this, expects me to correct and become a better person myself, so that in a few months we can come back together and finish what we started. She has even talked about going back to the fertility doctor.
> 
> So long story short, your kinda our rock for us all to look up to. Your doing what we wish and pray we can be strong enough to do. I have a a ton of respect for you and admire your strenth. Keep it up!!!


jason, 
how is that? my wife has not come out and said we can "come back together and finish what we started."

sound's like you are the one who is to be looked up to. thank you, howver, for the compliment.


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## Guest

My wife is filled with uncertainty and has left today, for an unknown time frame (months minimum), 600 miles away. Yours is well on her way to healing. I just wanted to stress that your much further along than I and I think we all can respect/admire your achievments. 

Keep it up, I have a lot of confidence that you will be very well rewarded for your efforts. Just remember this is likely the test she wants to see you succeed in.


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## voivod

Jason said:


> Keep it up, I have a lot of confidence that you will be very well rewarded for your efforts. Just remember this is likely the test she wants to see you succeed in.


i am doing my best. i'm just really hoping for this to take a positive turn. our anniversary, my oldest daughter's birthday, thanksgiving, christmas, new years, my son's birthday and my wife's birthday are all between now and the end of january. christmas eve is a real big time in our family. just a lot of potentially emotional biggies coming up. i just don't want to get lost in the mix.


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## draconis

voivod said:


> sprite,
> i really have made myself awfully avaiable to her. i am trying to find fault in that. when she said she was leaving, i did do the standard beg, cry, rationalize crap that i read is the wrong way to handle things.
> 
> now i've settled back in, i'm treating her requests with respect, trying very hard to be the guy i think she wants, it seems like i am being conciliatory with her. she has responded good. as you know we spend a lot of quality time together, and now SHE asks ME out.
> 
> i don't really know where i would tell her "no." we've sorta become one over the years. it's easy to be her "right hand" and she my "left hand."


If it isn't broke don't fix it.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> If it isn't broke don't fix it.
> 
> draconis


yeah drac--

i guess that what i have been about in this whole thing, trying to find the magic potion and there just isn't one. i love her dearly and i believe she loves me. there is just this huge wall of defense that is up and i gotta continue doing what i am doing to erode that wall.


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## draconis

I wish you the best of luck, but I don't think you need luck. You are doing everything right.

draconis


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## MarkTwain

draconis said:


> I wish you the best of luck, but I don't think you need luck. You are doing everything right.
> 
> draconis


:iagree:


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## voivod

draconis/mark twain, 
thanks for your encouragement. 

it just seems that staying the course means don't do anything, or don't do anything different.

if today wasn't our anniversary, i'd feel a lot better about things. i bought her a little gift and a nice card. i hope it goes over well. i'm gonna write a personal message in the card. in the mean time, i'm gonna play with the kids (half day of school today) and stay busy. something has gotta spring her emotionally to get us back together. i don't know how she even sees our anniversary. is it a happy day, sad day, hopeful day, a day that she wants to put behind her, etc. i think i'm gonna be okay, kinda maintaining my emotions, but i truly do love her so much that any little thing might trigger some emotional response. my kids have brought it up, so it's kinda hard to ignore.


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## swedish

Hi voivod,

I think you can chalk it up to an awkward day for both of you this year, but from Beth's actions up until now, I would say 'hopeful' for you both as well. For now, have another good day and do your best to keep your focus on everything that goes well today...don't dwell on the fantasy of what you want it to be...unless you're planning for next year already


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## draconis

I think hopeful too. The thing to look at or forward to is he chance that right moment.

draconis


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## voivod

swedish said:


> Hi voivod,
> 
> I think you can chalk it up to an awkward day for both of you this year, but from Beth's actions up until now, I would say 'hopeful' for you both as well. For now, have another good day and do your best to keep your focus on everything that goes well today...don't dwell on the fantasy of what you want it to be...unless you're planning for next year already


awkward, for sure, cuz you know what i've been thinking? about beth, sitting at work, without a big bouquet of flowers sitting in front of her to commemorate that day. i didn't do it because i didn't want to put her in an uncomfortable situation at work, having to answer all kinds of insensitive questions. i know that sounds odd, but...

i have a card and a small gift for her when she gets off work. nothing too elaborate, but something that tells her that i remember. i hope that's enough.

anybody who's attempting to be sober, i promise you once you reach this point in your sobriety, nothing will tempt you to go back. i feel absolutely no temptation whatsoever.


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## swedish

voivod said:


> awkward, for sure, cuz you know what i've been thinking? about beth, sitting at work, without a big bouquet of flowers sitting in front of her to commemorate that day.


See, you do have a plan for next year 

The gift is the least important thing today...the most important is that you, voivod, have thought this through from your wife's perspective, her feelings, her being comfortable and want to do the best you can for her today.

That's awesome


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## voivod

swedish said:


> See, you do have a plan for next year
> 
> The gift is the least important thing today...the most important is that you, voivod, have thought this through from your wife's perspective, her feelings, her being comfortable and want to do the best you can for her today.
> 
> That's awesome


plan, yes!

i just got done writing in the card i'm giving to my beautiful beth. i think she'll understand my rambling missive. i really do love her.


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## swedish

voivod said:


> separated, honoring wife daily with AA, counseling, she deserves the best me i can give her.


you can't wrap this up and stick a bow on it, but you are living it each day & that's better than any store bought gift.


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## voivod

swedish said:


> you can't wrap this up and stick a bow on it, but you are living it each day & that's better than any store bought gift.


swedish,
thanks, really, that's sweet. payoff is, she invited me to have breakfast(!) thanksgiving morning. what the heck?

she also invited me to our town's holiday festival. yay!!! my prayers are being answered!


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## draconis

It sounds good, have a blast of a time.

draconis


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## Guest

How did the anniversary go?


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## Melancholy

Voivod,

Can you send some of that prayer answering my way?


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## voivod

Jason said:


> How did the anniversary go?


well, i wrote alot of things i wanted to say to her in the card, including my sorrow for my health affecting our relationship so negatively. i think she took it well, she was incredibly sweet with me last night. the invitations for breakfast, holiday festival and holiday movies on thanksgiving are a big deal for her. she could have easily blown me off.

i also found out something about her sentimentally. she is not really a "high emotion" person. but i found some in her in the past 48 hours.

my prayers are the same as i suggest to everyone in similar situations: pray for a softening of her heart, and pray for a miracle. i am not going to get too far ahead of myself, but i think i'm seeing the beginnings of both. you remember how it felt at the beginning of your relationship, when you just knew she was falling in love with you? i'm getting that feeling now.


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## Guest

That is excellent Voi!!! We all could really use a success story and your the perfect person for it. I am cheering for you man!!


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## voivod

Jason said:


> That is excellent Voi!!! We all could really use a success story and your the perfect person for it. I am cheering for you man!!


buddy, i got a ways to go, but i'm on the right track, i think. thanks so much.

everyone, if you can find time, serve a meal or two at your local homeless shelter. those people need human interaction as well as food and shelter. it's something you can afford to do.


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## draconis

Not only does my store give to a local food pantry, but we will be starting child's play this year.

draconis


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## draconis

voivod said:


> well, i wrote alot of things i wanted to say to her in the card, including my sorrow for my health affecting our relationship so negatively. i think she took it well, she was incredibly sweet with me last night. the invitations for breakfast, holiday festival and holiday movies on thanksgiving are a big deal for her. she could have easily blown me off.
> 
> i also found out something about her sentimentally. she is not really a "high emotion" person. but i found some in her in the past 48 hours.
> 
> my prayers are the same as i suggest to everyone in similar situations: pray for a softening of her heart, and pray for a miracle. i am not going to get too far ahead of myself, but i think i'm seeing the beginnings of both. you remember how it felt at the beginning of your relationship, when you just knew she was falling in love with you? i'm getting that feeling now.


Hopefully you will get that feeling everyday from here forth and I pray she does too.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> Not only does my store give to a local food pantry, but we will be starting child's play this year.
> 
> draconis


that is cool. never forget the kids. they are special, aren't they?


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## draconis

Yes they are special, We also donate to a local church when they do fund raisers. It so happens to be the church when I was a kid.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> Yes they are special, We also donate to a local church when they do fund raisers. It so happens to be the church when I was a kid.
> 
> draconis


cool. we're doing a fundraiser for the kids here, showing miracle on 34th street in one of the historic theaters downtown.

as for thanksgiving, it couldn't have gone better. we had breakfast, my wife and 11 year old daughter did the cooking. everything was yummy. we played after we ate and watched "a christmas story" afterwards. then they went to my mother in law's house. i didn't go. it would have been awkward. she's the mother in law who made my wife's life so miserable growing up. now that i know that, i hold her in contempt and i don't think she likes me too much right now. whatever.

tomorrow i was invited to our town's holiday festival by my wife and i'm looking forward to that and more christmas movies and going to see santa tomorrow. 

as i was leaving today, i stroked he hair gently and affectionately and didn't get pushed away. i think i got a smile. anyway, that, and the anniversary card went over well, i think. got a thank you, and i really spilled my guts in it!

okay, happy thanksgiving everybody. remember say a prayer He DOES listen, even to heathen like me!


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## CPT CONFUSED

friggin A dude rock on! im so happy for you! hope everything keeps going awesome!

CPT:smthumbup:


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## draconis

It's nice that you had a good thanksgiving. I cooked for 13 which is a change I normally cook for 30, but my wife's family couldn't show up for varies reasons.

best of luck, I'll keep you in my prayers.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> It's nice that you had a good thanksgiving. I cooked for 13 which is a change I normally cook for 30, but my wife's family couldn't show up for varies reasons.
> 
> best of luck, I'll keep you in my prayers.
> 
> draconis


yeah, i was always the cook at thankgiving. for us that usually meant i was the cleaner-upper and the guy that took the turkey off the bone to put it in zip-lock bags for freezer storage. but this year, those tasks were done by someone else. my wife is not a big thanksgiving eater, and dinner was at her mom's house, so all that was taken care of.

the kids got to play with their cousins, then came home and mom went to sleep.

yesterday we watched our college football team DEMOLISH their conference rival. another undefeated season! three in five years. boise state university deserves to go to a BCS bowl!!!anyway, after the game we went to the holiday festival. my wife looked absolutely stunning. my 5 year old boy joey wouldn't tell us what he wanted for christmas...he only wanted to tell santa claus...he wanted proof that santa was real...his rationale is that if only santa knew what he wanted and he GOT IT for christmas, then santa is real...little did joey know that dad was in cahoots with santa...i guess santa will be real since joey's getting the tribots robot and the "big train" he asked santa for!!!!

anyway, what a wonderful time i had...i feel the vibes coming back...real slowly...but they're coming. i think i'm gonna look back on this time and understand everything real well. i hope. what a time for growth.


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## draconis

Our daughter (8) mailed Santa a letter. He he. I'll have to make sure he writes one back to her.

draconis


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## Guest

I so want to experience having a child and the holidays. My family didnt celebrate any holidays. My first ones were with Jody. Now I want the chance to live those holidays like that thru a child of my own.


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## voivod

draconis said:


> Our daughter (8) mailed Santa a letter. He he. I'll have to make sure he writes one back to her.
> 
> draconis


drac--

there is a way...check this out:

Write Santa Claus at home for a free Santa Letter


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## voivod

swedish said:


> you can't wrap this up and stick a bow on it, but you are living it each day & that's better than any store bought gift.



swedish--

sunday's, i've found, are the most difficult days for me right now. we used to go for a drive every sunday. it was kinda a neat way to just sit quietly...and talk...we live in an area surrounded by beautiful scenery and it was always so peaceful to just drive and chat. now sunday is for relaxing, kinda "me time" for beth. i so want to respect that, but it's hard to put out of my mind that we used to go on sunday drives. i really miss her on sundays, even though she is literally less than a mile from me.

i am getting to the point where i don't understand what is the point of her needing "time." i mean, we've been in this situation for almost 5 months. what more is there to gain? i'll admit that i'm really missing every aspect of our living together. the combination of that, how well we get along, and her constantly inviting me to do things with her makes me impatient. lately i've taken to light, affectionate touching, stroking her hair, rub her shoulder, and i'm not sensing resistance...it makes me feel as though she's opening up. what else is there to do? things that would help her get over the hump, maybe bring a wall down a bit??? i'm kinda hurting right now, if you can't tell.


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## Jenni

The incident about the beer in the refrigerator was the straw that broke the camel's back. Your wife has been tolerating the situation for the longest time and on top of it she did not abandon you in the hospital by yourself. It sounds to me that the things she said to you were out of frustration and you need to prove to her that you are going to help yourself in order to save your family before it is too late. If you don't feel strong enough to do it on your own, join an alcoholic anonymous group and stick to it. I have seen guys who have stayed sober for years and get inspired helping others going through the same thing. It will be not be easy but look at your beatiful children and your caring wife at the end of the tunnel. Think of alcoholism to be like any other health problem and approach it with the same responsibility as if you were a diabetic or a cancer patient. Obviously, if your wife is still doing thoughtful things for you after all this time is because she cares about you.


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## voivod

Jenni said:


> The incident about the beer in the refrigerator was the straw that broke the camel's back. Your wife has been tolerating the situation for the longest time and on top of it she did not abandon you in the hospital by yourself. It sounds to me that the things she said to you were out of frustration and you need to prove to her that you are going to help yourself in order to save your family before it is too late. If you don't feel strong enough to do it on your own, join an alcoholic anonymous group and stick to it. I have seen guys who have stayed sober for years and get inspired helping others going through the same thing. It will be not be easy but look at your beatiful children and your caring wife at the end of the tunnel. Think of alcoholism to be like any other health problem and approach it with the same responsibility as if you were a diabetic or a cancer patient. Obviously, if your wife is still doing thoughtful things for you after all this time is because she cares about you.


jenni--

i have been in AA and have not had an alcohol drink of any kind since that fateful beer. i sure hate to sound cocky about it, but alcohol is no longer a problem for me. and you are right, she did not abandon me. and the children...they are beautiful, and i should have taken them into account and not did so much stupid partying back then. my lifestyle was crazy. and thank you for recognizing that she still cares. she realy does show it. i am just getting a bit weary of looking down that tunnel that you describe. thank you for your caring response. i promise, God as my witness, that i'm doing all the right things.


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## Guest

Have you told her you have any goals with regard to you and her? Maybe she might appreciate the aspect of how you feel about the two of you and if she would be willing to try to enhance the relationship. I'm not sure what the response would be but from everything I've read about the two of you, she hasn't taken a hostile approach to you at any point. If she isn't rejecting your gnetle advances, she might be opening up more to you. Granted your the one who knows her better than any of us.


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## Jenni

Dear friend,

I chose to answer you because one of my best friends went through what you are going through with the difference that he lost his family at the end. My heart goes out to anyone who experienced that. My friend has not drank a single beer in seventeen years and finally made peace with his ex wife when they shook hands at their son's wedding. At this point, she still cares about him but it is now a different kind of love. Please don't feel offended but think that for example, for a smoker, it only takes him one cigarrette to go back to smoking. Your wife obviously fears that and knows what is best for you. Women want to be with a strong man next to them and not become the husband's mothers. This is what my friend's ex feels for him now, a parent-child love. You don't want that. Save it while you can. No woman has four children with a man she does not love. Best luck to you.


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## voivod

and y'know...i understand that a woman wouldn't have 4 children with a man she doesn't love, and i understand that it was the straw that broke the camel's back, and i understand that she wouldn't spend so much time with me if she didn't care, and i understand that she's not filed for divorce...but why in the world is this taking so long??? she's worth waitning for, but i wish i understood a woman's thinking. she told my 11 yr old daughter she still "needed time." i'm so confused.


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## Guest

Have you two gone to counseling together lately or are you doing that yourself right now?


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## voivod

Jason said:


> Have you two gone to counseling together lately or are you doing that yourself right now?


we have both gone. the last guy was a disaster. i'm seeing a new counselor now. wife has agreed to go but not every week as her schedule is crazy.


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## Guest

If this is recent, does the conversation of your relationship come up? Voi, I can't tell you how much I am hoping for you. Of all the stories on this forum, yours reached me in a way I wouldn't have expected. People like you make this process inspirational. I dont know what our lives have in store for each other but remember every time your being challenged either by life, putting your relationship back together, or even a drink, know that people like me are looking up to you. Coming from me, who has closed everyone out in my life, that is a statement beyond recognition.

Be patient, that day will come and you will feel so reborn from it. You know its coming, have patience and when it comes dont go nuts. I'd bet you'd be like a little kid all charged up on way too much sugar.


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## draconis

You are doing the right things, but from an AA perspective the alcohol is always an issue, and it always will be. It is good that you have lost the impulse for it, but it can return so stay guarded.

You have been proving yourself to her everyday. It isn't your love for her she is worried about but rather trust and dependence.

That will come, have faith.

draconis


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## Jenni

Separations are never easy but they don't have to be for ever. We can feel empty and lost but they can be good too because it makes us reflect on our lives and make changes. This might be a time for church, reflection, family and friends' support. Group therapy can be good too! Keep in touch with your children and never stop telling them how much you love them and you love their mom.


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## Sprite

voivod said:


> and y'know...i understand that a woman wouldn't have 4 children with a man she doesn't love, and i understand that it was the straw that broke the camel's back, and i understand that she wouldn't spend so much time with me if she didn't care, and i understand that she's not filed for divorce...but why in the world is this taking so long??? she's worth waitning for, but i wish i understood a woman's thinking. she told my 11 yr old daughter she still "needed time." i'm so confused.


I am sorry to say but 5 months is not a long enough time frame to come to terms with the past how many years of disappointment. She wants to be absolutely sure nothing will change if(more like when) you two get back together. She probably enjoys the relationship you have with her now, the way you treat her and the kids...but that is something that should have been happening all along. She may be afraid that if she does give in and you move back in together...what you have now will go away. Again....time and patience on your part is the only thing that is going to show her that you are for real.

I am happy to hear things are going so well. Keep it up!!!!:smthumbup:


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## voivod

Sprite said:


> I am sorry to say but 5 months is not a long enough time frame to come to terms with the past how many years of disappointment. She wants to be absolutely sure nothing will change if(more like when) you two get back together. She probably enjoys the relationship you have with her now, the way you treat her and the kids...


funny thing is, i can't imagine not being this way and treating them this way all along...i can't believe i would have done anything else before...funny how a little sobriety and hindsight works.


Sprite said:


> but that is something that should have been happening all along. She may be afraid that if she does give in and you move back in together...what you have now will go away. Again....time and patience on your part is the only thing that is going to show her that you are for real.


i hope she doesn't feel like she'd be "giving in." i don't want that. i want her to want to move back together, when that time comes.


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## draconis

I am sue when the time comes she will be wanting to move back as much as you do.

draconis


----------



## swedish

voivod said:


> swedish--
> 
> sunday's, i've found, are the most difficult days for me right now. we used to go for a drive every sunday. it was kinda a neat way to just sit quietly...and talk...we live in an area surrounded by beautiful scenery and it was always so peaceful to just drive and chat. now sunday is for relaxing, kinda "me time" for beth. i so want to respect that, but it's hard to put out of my mind that we used to go on sunday drives. i really miss her on sundays, even though she is literally less than a mile from me.
> 
> i am getting to the point where i don't understand what is the point of her needing "time." i mean, we've been in this situation for almost 5 months. what more is there to gain? i'll admit that i'm really missing every aspect of our living together. the combination of that, how well we get along, and her constantly inviting me to do things with her makes me impatient. lately i've taken to light, affectionate touching, stroking her hair, rub her shoulder, and i'm not sensing resistance...it makes me feel as though she's opening up. what else is there to do? things that would help her get over the hump, maybe bring a wall down a bit??? i'm kinda hurting right now, if you can't tell.


What I think you will both gain from 'time' is that when you are living together again, it will be a well thought out decision made for the right reasons. She is obviously being cautious because it involves a major life decision for you both and your kids and I don't see her making that decision until she really feels it's right. I think every day she sees you as you are now will make it feel more 'right'.

If you want to try bringing down a wall, I would not ask about living together again, etc. but maybe more along the lines of how she sees you now...does she believe you have it in you to stay the course...guage her response to see where her mind is headed.


----------



## voivod

swedish said:


> What I think you will both gain from 'time' is that when you are living together again, it will be a well thought out decision made for the right reasons. She is obviously being cautious because it involves a major life decision for you both and your kids and I don't see her making that decision until she really feels it's right. I think every day she sees you as you are now will make it feel more 'right'.
> 
> If you want to try bringing down a wall, I would not ask about living together again, etc. but maybe more along the lines of how she sees you now...does she believe you have it in you to stay the course...guage her response to see where her mind is headed.


yeah, i wasn't really the one who asked the question, but she said that "gosh, it's been almost a year" referring to the date of my stroke. she thinks i can "stay the course," as you say. but she used that word "time" again. she said "i just need time" to believe whether i can continue.


----------



## voivod

draconis said:


> I am sue when the time comes she will be wanting to move back as much as you do.
> 
> draconis


i'm sure bolstered by the fact that you guys are all saying "when" instead of "if" we are back together. i wish i had your confidence. i suppose i do, seeing as how this hasn't regressed down the "bad" road. i just wish i could lie my head down every night knowing that it's gonna turn out good.

i guess i can be thankful my wife isn't involved with a dom master, needing to "find herself" and abandoning us altogether, lying about infidelity, running off with some biker dude, etc. i am so bummed for all the people on this forum thusly affected. i pray that each of these situation turns out good.


----------



## Sprite

Voi, it is sometimes easier for someone on the outside of the situation to see things that those in the middle of it can't. I say "when" because it sounds to me like she has not given up hope on you or your marriage. If she wanted a divorce, don't you think she would have asked for one by now?

Stay positive in your thinking. No one knows what is going to happen in the future, but positive thinking makes it seem a little easier to deal with. If you dwell on negative feelings and thoughts, you just open yourself up for added stress that you don't really need.

Just remind yourself every night before you go to sleep, that she is still talking to you and has not filed for a divorce and you two do seem to have a good relationship....this IS positive.

just hang in there, it will all works its way out!


----------



## voivod

Sprite said:


> If she wanted a divorce, don't you think she would have asked for one by now?!


i don't know. i don't know how those things work. y'know, i still fear that one day a go to my mailbox and *boom* there it is. a letter from an attorney.



Sprite said:


> Just remind yourself every night before you go to sleep, that she is still talking to you and has not filed for a divorce and you two do seem to have a good relationship....this IS positive.


that kind of thought is what gets me from day to day. i just don't get the whole thing.


----------



## draconis

Just remember each new day is a chance, each older day is a step foward.

draconis


----------



## Sprite

What is it that you dont get? Do you mean that as in...I dont understand it....or as in....you dont get to have the whole thing meaning Beth?


----------



## voivod

Sprite said:


> What is it that you dont get? Do you mean that as in...I dont understand it....or as in....you dont get to have the whole thing meaning Beth?


i don't understand how someone could hold a grudge this long. i don't get how she could be so kind to me day to day, yet not want to be back together. i don't understand how a 5-month separation could come from what i did...


----------



## StrongEnough

I have read your thread and am truly inspired by your devotion voivod. I just wanted to add that I think Beth is wanting to make sure that this change is permanent and that it won't all go back to how it was before. Does that make sense? Right now things are going fairly well and she sees that, but probably doesn't want to risk all that.

Just my 2 pennies!


----------



## voivod

StrongEnough said:


> I have read your thread and am truly inspired by your devotion voivod. I just wanted to add that I think Beth is wanting to make sure that this change is permanent and that it won't all go back to how it was before. Does that make sense? Right now things are going fairly well and she sees that, but probably doesn't want to risk all that.
> 
> Just my 2 pennies!


thanks. i'm sure she wants to make sure, but the only way to be sure is to jump back in and test the waters, right? and right now things ARE going fairly well, maybe that's my point. i see too much breaking up for good on this forum. i don't want to become that. and the last thing, about risk. what's her risk? if i blow it, she can leave. she's proven that.


----------



## StrongEnough

The risk is getting her heart broken again and putting the kids through moving in and moving out again if the changes aren't permanent. I am certain that you are committed to the changes after reading the thread, but she may need more time. 

I agree there is quite a bit of breaking up for good going on, but I don't see that happening here. I see this as Beth is testing the waters by doing small things together, but not completely jumping in. She had her life jacket on, now she is swimming with floaties (water wings) and will eventually get the courage to go all in. I am sure she never wants to go down this road again.

Patience.....


----------



## voivod

StrongEnough said:


> The risk is getting her heart broken again and putting the kids through moving in and moving out again if the changes aren't permanent. I am certain that you are committed to the changes after reading the thread, but she may need more time.


fair enough. i understand that. and yes, i am committed to the changes. i'm feeling better because of it.



StrongEnough said:


> I agree there is quite a bit of breaking up for good going on, but I don't see that happening here. I see this as Beth is testing the waters by doing small things together, but not completely jumping in. She had her life jacket on, now she is swimming with floaties (water wings) and will eventually get the courage to go all in. I am sure she never wants to go down this road again.
> 
> Patience.....


i so hope you are correct about her "testing the waters." i am not failing, i am doing and being the man she and my children deserve.

finally...patience is a quality i have not displayed on this forum. i'm having a hell of a time getting patience.


----------



## voivod

speaking of lack of patience. i broke down and went over to her house tonight. i just wanted to see her and talk to her. mistake in a way i guess. she was beautiful. we talked, laughed. then i left. i don't know why i'm feeling all this anxiety right now. maybe it's the holidays, maybe the new job, stupid as it sounds, maybe its the football season being over and not having that built-in excuse to get together on the weekends. but i'm really feeling it tonight.


----------



## draconis

I am sure she enjoyed it. Once in a while it is a nice surprise, to much and it is to pushy.

draconis


----------



## voivod

draconis--
you say what is true without glossing it over. you are absolutely right...i got up at 3:00am to post this response. that's how important i thought it was to let you know that. thank you.


----------



## draconis

Voivod ~ I have seen you grow in dynamic ways since you join the forum. I feel like I have grown too from all your posts here and with other people. Keep up the good work. I know times may seem like they get to you, or things don't move fast enough when you are not in control, but they do come. Funny how we allow more when we are wooing someone than when we are married to them.

draconis


----------



## voivod

draconis said:


> Voivod ~ I have seen you grow in dynamic ways since you join the forum. I feel like I have grown too from all your posts here and with other people. Keep up the good work. I know times may seem like they get to you, or things don't move fast enough when you are not in control, but they do come. Funny how we allow more when we are wooing someone than when we are married to them.
> 
> draconis


y'know, when we were together it was nothing for her to stop by my work, call me just to say hi, but now it seems like the only time there is any communication is when we see each other on the weekend or on the phone. she gave me HUGE amounts of attention. i NEVER had to fight for it or try so hard. i'm having a rough week, for absolutely no reason.


----------



## draconis

When things are strained prople tend to pull back for protection.

draconis


----------



## Sprite

You are not having a rough week for absolutely no reason. You have plenty of reasons, the one being your emotions are taking a toll on you. I can understand this because my husband has been very emotional this week and there were a couple days he seemed really depressed. He was never the type to get depressed about anything. He was depressed because men are result oriented(I think I read that somewhere on here) and it is absolutely true. You want to see results for your hard work..as an example, you change a flat tire on your car...the problem is fixed...that simply. But a car does not have emotions, feelings or memories that may cause them to think. 

I know in my situation, even tho my husband is doing everything right and trying to fix what happened in the past(as you are doing), part of me has just shut down from all of it. Part of me feels numb and I have an I don't care attitude sometimes towards most of what he has been doing right this time. It's almost like I can't control it. It sometimes feels like my subcontious has taken over and has a mind of its own...like I just needed a break from all of it. We will have 2-3 days of great...then I shut down again and I start to withdrawl from him. If Beth feels anything like I have through my situation....she may be going through the same thing. I still love him(still not sure to what extent) and care for him and feel bad that he hurts so much....but sometmes I just get tired of dealing with it and need some "down time" from the whole situation. Sometimes I feel like I can't think with him around all the time and need my "space". But, on those days where we have no expectations of each other, and we simply do something just to have fun, are the days I think we make the most progress. I am just trying to give you an idea of what she may be going through here.

Just give her time to be her. One of the approaches my husband has taken is to become my friend again. This has helped more than I ever thought it would have. It has been almost 2 years since I told him "I was done", and it has taken this long for me to feel that there is still hope for our marriage. I am not saying it will take Beth that long to come to terms with everything, I just wanted you to know that it may. Although I am hoping it doesn't!!!

He really took me by surprise this week and has made me feel more special than he has since before we had kids. My birthday is Friday, and the typical Dan would forget about it until that day...then scramble to find a gift for me. But this year...he already bought me a cake(which he never did before) and a present(which he is teasing me with because it is already wrapped and just sitting there waiting for me to open it on Friday) and he brought home flowers for me yesterday. It's those little things that give me hope. Not the cake or the present, but the thought that he actually thought about me BEFORE my birthday and he is making it a 2 day affair cuz he is taking me out tonight...to go dancing....where did THAT come from...he NEVER wanted to go dancing before. 

Us women are BIG on the little things..show her you care and want to focus on HER. Send her a "thinking of you" card through the mail....just because you can. When you go do some shopping and you see a trinket that may remind you of her...get it for her...just because. MOST women do not care so much about the item that is given, but the time and thought that was put into it. To know that you are thinking of us when we are apart is one of the best things you can do for us.

Uh oh...it seems as though one of those "bricks" in my wall is crumbling to the ground. But, it took a LONG time for it to happen! Just don't give up hope(which I know you never will) and don't stop SHOWING her how much she means to you(which i hope you never do) and how much you think of her. She simply needs time to heal.


----------



## Sprite

draconis said:


> When things are strained prople tend to pull back for protection.


VERY well put!!


----------



## voivod

Sprite said:


> You are not having a rough week for absolutely no reason. You have plenty of reasons, the one being your emotions are taking a toll on you. I can understand this because my husband has been very emotional this week and there were a couple days he seemed really depressed. He was never the type to get depressed about anything. He was depressed because men are result oriented(I think I read that somewhere on here) and it is absolutely true. You want to see results for your hard work..as an example, you change a flat tire on your car...the problem is fixed...


exactly!!! so there was a problem...i fixed it. problem solved. right?





Sprite said:


> I know in my situation, even tho my husband is doing everything right and trying to fix what happened in the past(as you are doing), part of me has just shut down from all of it. Part of me feels numb and I have an I don't care attitude sometimes towards most of what he has been doing right this time. It's almost like I can't control it. It sometimes feels like my subcontious has taken over and has a mind of its own...like I just needed a break from all of it. We will have 2-3 days of great...then I shut down again and I start to withdrawl from him. If Beth feels anything like I have through my situation....she may be going through the same thing.


yep. that "i don't care" thing comes through when you guys do that.



Sprite said:


> Us women are BIG on the little things..show her you care and want to focus on HER. Send her a "thinking of you" card through the mail....just because you can. When you go do some shopping and you see a trinket that may remind you of her...get it for her...just because. MOST women do not care so much about the item that is given, but the time and thought that was put into it. To know that you are thinking of us when we are apart is one of the best things you can do for us.


don't you ever think that WE might build up resentment because you take so long to "get it" with us. that we are doing a ****load of work, and it takes you so damned long to bring down the wall. that could make us resent you.




Sprite said:


> Uh oh...it seems as though one of those "bricks" in my wall is crumbling to the ground. But, it took a LONG time for it to happen! Just don't give up hope(which I know you never will) and don't stop SHOWING her how much she means to you(which i hope you never do) and how much you think of her. She simply needs time to heal.


time. there's that unquantifiable word again.


----------



## StrongEnough

voivod said:


> exactlt!!! so there was a problem...i fixed it. problem solved. right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yep. that "i don't care" thing comes through when you guys do that.
> 
> 
> don't you ever think that WE might build up resentment because you take so long to "get it" with us. that we are doing a ****load of work, and it takes you so damned long to bring down the wall. that could make us resent you.
> 
> 
> 
> time. there's that unquantifiable word again.


Patience, patience, patience. Us woman are very funny creatures and we are not easy to understand. I am sure you are building resentment, but at the same time, Beth's wall is slowly crumbling. She is what you want no doubt about it. When you get discouraged think about how bad it could be, where you are now compared to where you were and be glad you guys are on the track to happiness again!


----------



## voivod

StrongEnough said:


> Patience, patience, patience. Us woman are very funny creatures and we are not easy to understand.


you got that right. if this were the old me, i'd be mad at her, telling her how rediculous she was being over one beer! and you know what, there's a point there.




StrongEnough said:


> I am sure you are building resentment, but at the same time, Beth's wall is slowly crumbling.


what are you seeing that i'm not?




StrongEnough said:


> She is what you want no doubt about it.


again, based on what? i need to hear it from you.




StrongEnough said:


> When you get discouraged think about how bad it could be, where you are now compared to where you were and be glad you guys are on the track to happiness again!


okay. thank you.


----------



## StrongEnough

voivod said:


> you got that right. if this were the old me, i'd be mad at her, telling her how rediculous she was being over one beer! and you know what, there's a point there.
> 
> 
> 
> what are you seeing that i'm not?
> 
> 
> 
> again, based on what? i need to hear it from you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> okay. thank you.


It's not the one beer she is pissed about. You know that. It's seeing you as sick as you were and helping you back. That back reminded her of that time when she nearly lost you and for her she probably thought you did not she what she went through.

There is not a doubt in my mind that you want to be with her. Your posts are inspiring and you are truly committed to the changes you have made. You see your faults and recognize them easily. You are doing as much as possible for Beth. This tells me that you really want to be with her.


----------



## swedish

I think one thing you need to remember is that neither of you want to go back to where you were before. So looking back at the past and what she would have done or what you would have done is irrelevent now. 

What you are both doing at this point is starting over as individuals. You are at a point that you are ready for the next step, moving back together, but she isn't at that point. Yes, there may come a time where you decide you can no longer wait it out and being separated you are both at risk of the other deciding this is what I want now. 

There are no guarantees that if you wait it out things will work out but given that you get along, spend time together and she seems totally comfortable around you chances are she will get to the point you are at today. And you have been doing all you can to nurture the result you want.

I'm sure the day-to-day status quo can be emotionally draining, but honestly the work you've done on yourself has set you up for a great marriage going forward so hang in there.


----------



## voivod

StrongEnough said:


> Beth's wall is slowly crumbling. She is what you want no doubt about it. QUOTE]
> 
> how are you able to tell these two statements apply?


----------



## StrongEnough

voivod said:


> yeah, i was always the cook at thankgiving. for us that usually meant i was the cleaner-upper and the guy that took the turkey off the bone to put it in zip-lock bags for freezer storage. but this year, those tasks were done by someone else. my wife is not a big thanksgiving eater, and dinner was at her mom's house, so all that was taken care of.
> 
> the kids got to play with their cousins, then came home and mom went to sleep.
> 
> yesterday we watched our college football team DEMOLISH their conference rival. another undefeated season! three in five years. boise state university deserves to go to a BCS bowl!!!anyway, after the game we went to the holiday festival. my wife looked absolutely stunning. my 5 year old boy joey wouldn't tell us what he wanted for christmas...he only wanted to tell santa claus...he wanted proof that santa was real...his rationale is that if only santa knew what he wanted and he GOT IT for christmas, then santa is real...little did joey know that dad was in cahoots with santa...i guess santa will be real since joey's getting the tribots robot and the "big train" he asked santa for!!!!
> 
> anyway, what a wonderful time i had...i feel the vibes coming back...real slowly...but they're coming. i think i'm gonna look back on this time and understand everything real well. i hope. what a time for growth.


This quote tells me that her wall is crumbling. She is spending time with you!


----------



## StrongEnough

voivod said:


> well, i wrote alot of things i wanted to say to her in the card, including my sorrow for my health affecting our relationship so negatively. i think she took it well, she was incredibly sweet with me last night. the invitations for breakfast, holiday festival and holiday movies on thanksgiving are a big deal for her. she could have easily blown me off.
> 
> i also found out something about her sentimentally. she is not really a "high emotion" person. but i found some in her in the past 48 hours.
> 
> my prayers are the same as i suggest to everyone in similar situations: pray for a softening of her heart, and pray for a miracle. i am not going to get too far ahead of myself, but i think i'm seeing the beginnings of both. you remember how it felt at the beginning of your relationship, when you just knew she was falling in love with you? i'm getting that feeling now.


This quote tells me you want to be with her!


----------



## StrongEnough

voivod said:


> StrongEnough said:
> 
> 
> 
> Beth's wall is slowly crumbling. She is what you want no doubt about it. QUOTE]
> 
> how are you able to tell these two statements apply?
> 
> 
> 
> Do they not apply?
Click to expand...


----------



## voivod

StrongEnough said:


> voivod said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do they not apply?
> 
> 
> 
> well, i hope the wall is crumbling. how can you tell?
Click to expand...


----------



## StrongEnough

She would not be wanting to do things together if she did not want to be around you and didn't she invite you? That is how I can tell and maybe because I am a woman and I know how us crazy creatures think!


----------



## voivod

StrongEnough said:


> She would not be wanting to do things together if she did not want to be around you and didn't she invite you? That is how I can tell and maybe because I am a woman and I know how us crazy creatures think!


yeah, but i'd think that if i was making a good impression we'd be farther along in the healing process. and i think the wall goes up every time she let's herself allow me to get close. does that make sense?


----------



## StrongEnough

voivod said:


> yeah, but i'd think that if i was making a good impression we'd be farther along in the healing process. and i think the wall goes up every time she let's herself allow me to get close. does that make sense?


Well she is still hurting and I know you hate this but-PATIENCE- and time. Yes, what you are saying makes sense. She puts that wall back up each time you guys get close because she is scared of being hurt again. She doesn't want to let her guard down and risk being vulnerable again. If she continues to see you maintaining the changes, the wall will continue to fall. I am really rooting for you!


----------



## draconis

StrongEnough said:


> Well she is still hurting and I know you hate this but-PATIENCE- and time. Yes, what you are saying makes sense. She puts that wall back up each time you guys get close because she is scared of being hurt again. She doesn't want to let her guard down and risk being vulnerable again. If she continues to see you maintaining the changes, the wall will continue to fall. I am really rooting for you!


:iagree:

But than again I have been telling you the same thing but lets do this at a different level, how fast can you go a mile run/walk/jog.

draconis


----------



## voivod

StrongEnough said:


> Well she is still hurting and I know you hate this but-PATIENCE- and time. Yes, what you are saying makes sense. She puts that wall back up each time you guys get close because she is scared of being hurt again. She doesn't want to let her guard down and risk being vulnerable again. If she continues to see you maintaining the changes, the wall will continue to fall. I am really rooting for you!


just my opinion, but i think she has a self-worth issue with getting back together. she feels, i think, like no one with a sense of self worth would return to this relationship. and i think that's too bad, because i am the most loving, caring, loyal person you'd want to know.


----------



## draconis

voivod said:


> just my opinion, but i think she has a self-worth issue with getting back together. she feels, i think, like no one with a sense of self worth would return to this relationship. and i think that's too bad, because i am the most loving, caring, loyal person you'd want to know.


I think she is afraid of getting hurt again, though you know your wife better than anyone on the forums do.

draconis


----------



## voivod

draconis said:


> :iagree:
> 
> But than again I have been telling you the same thing but lets do this at a different level, how fast can you go a mile run/walk/jog.
> 
> draconis


okay...10 minutes, but i have a limp still from my stroke.


----------



## draconis

voivod said:


> okay...10 minutes, but i have a limp still from my stroke.


Now imagine if every step you had to tie your shoes, Well here is the same thing. She could get there quicker, and with less hassle, but there is that safety issue. It is hard and painful to split up and move out, I am sure she wants the marriage but is afraid of having to seperate again.

draconis


----------



## voivod

draconis said:


> Now imagine if every step you had to tie your shoes, Well here is the same thing. She could get there quicker, and with less hassle, but there is that safety issue. It is hard and painful to split up and move out, I am sure she wants the marriage but is afraid of having to seperate again.
> 
> draconis


drac--
why don't you tell her, i'm safe today. borrrringly safe.


----------



## voivod

that sounded kinda smart alecky, sorry.


----------



## brighteyes72

I scanned through this thread last week, and then looked over it again today. I don't know what to tell you Voivod, except that you sound to me like you are doing everything right. I'm a little bit disappointed in your wife for not picking up on your efforts, although maybe she is. It sounds like she does enjoy being with you by the way you describe it. I'd be curious what she expects from you as far as being a viable partner in this marriage. You have made some mistakes, for sure, but how much do you owe in restitution for your crimes. If she is going to hold this over your head for a lifetime, I wonder how happy you can be? Keep giving it your all. I hope this turns out the way you want it to.


----------



## voivod

brighteyes72 said:


> you sound to me like you are doing everything right. I'm a little bit disappointed in your wife for not picking up on your efforts, although maybe she is.


i am doing everything within my power...maybe she is picking things up as far as my efforts, but i feel like slamming the door on this nonsense.



brighteyes72 said:


> It sounds like she does enjoy being with you by the way you describe it. I'd be curious what she expects from you as far as being a viable partner in this marriage. You have made some mistakes, for sure, but how much do you owe in restitution for your crimes.


who knows. like i said, i'm trying. my biggest question so far is HOW MUCH punishment i deserve, because that's what it feels like, punishment.



brighteyes72 said:


> If she is going to hold this over your head for a lifetime, I wonder how happy you can be? Keep giving it your all. I hope this turns out the way you want it to.


she's worth the pain. when this whole thing started, she was done, i think. checked out. i swear i see life in it now. little bits make me sad, like tonight is her company's work party, we always have so much fun at it. this year she's going with her ladyfriends from work. my oldest daughter is driving so i know they'll be safe. but little things like that i miss out on now. makes me sad.


----------



## draconis

voivod ~ This isn't unheard of for it to take 3 months to a year. Keep doing things right and I am sure she will see you as the new you sooner than later.

draconis


----------



## voivod

draconis said:


> voivod ~ This isn't unheard of for it to take 3 months to a year. Keep doing things right and I am sure she will see you as the new you sooner than later.
> 
> draconis


...to a YEAR!?!?!that, my friend is a lonnnggg time.

i got kind of an ego boost (or whatever) when beth called this morning and asked me to speak to my youngest daughter about a discipline issue. i handled it, and she told me thank you for whatever i said because it worked, then she asked me about some office politics, whether she handled it right or how i would handle it. so my opinion still means something to her. also, it is not surprising, but nice to know that she handled herself in a ladylike manner last night at the company christmas party. we're (i think) going to a movie tonight so that oughtta be cool. but drac...a year?!?!


----------



## draconis

voivod said:


> ...to a YEAR!?!?!that, my friend is a lonnnggg time.
> 
> i got kind of an ego boost (or whatever) when beth called this morning and asked me to speak to my youngest daughter about a discipline issue. i handled it, and she told me thank you for whatever i said because it worked, then she asked me about some office politics, whether she handled it right or how i would handle it. so my opinion still means something to her. also, it is not surprising, but nice to know that she handled herself in a ladylike manner last night at the company christmas party. we're (i think) going to a movie tonight so that oughtta be cool. but drac...a year?!?!


I think you explain your own issue, I said up to a year. Things are not going to happen as you schedule them and if you get pushy than Beth will back off. I also said I think it will be sooner than later. BTW yes I have seen these things take a year, but most take a few months to start talking and dating again.

draconis

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> I think you explain your own issue, I said up to a year. Things are not going to happen as you schedule them and if you get pushy than Beth will back off. I also said I think it will be sooner than later. BTW yes I have seen these things take a year, but most take a few months to start talking and dating again.
> 
> draconis
> 
> draconis


yeah, i'm sure if i get too pushy...but i'm not...it just seems like a year is forrrrevvvverrr!!!


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## draconis

If a year is forever than how many forevers have you spent with her?

I think you see what I am saying, but reread what I have said too, because you keep fixating on a year. I was using that as a maximum, not a standard.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> If a year is forever than how many forevers have you spent with her?
> 
> I think you see what I am saying, but reread what I have said too, because you keep fixating on a year. I was using that as a maximum, not a standard.
> 
> draconis


i know bud...but if i let it go a year, maybe she'll take that long...we had a good night tonite though...so maybe i'm a little impatient because we're having way more good than bad...in fact, there have been no bad


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## draconis

Keep doing what you are doing and be thankful for the chance. You will know when there is a right time to bring things up when you get it. Just do it as a choice with no pressure.

draconis


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## voivod

drac--
i want you to know i remain thankful for the chance. i do believe this is going to work out. not today, not tomorrow, but one day, it'll all come back together. she talked tonight about how she was hurt because of her love for me, and how her 911 call for the ambulance she was scared and crying. i think she's allowing herself to deal with the things that are holding her back.


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## draconis

voivod said:


> drac--
> i want you to know i remain thankful for the chance. i do believe this is going to work out. not today, not tomorrow, but one day, it'll all come back together. she talked tonight about how she was hurt because of her love for me, and how her 911 call for the ambulance she was scared and crying. i think she's allowing herself to deal with the things that are holding her back.


I think that ther is more to her than that. She was that worried, now she always has to live with that fear. It took her this long just to tell you how she felt that day. But the fact that she is telling you this is a good sign of trust returning.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> I think that ther is more to her than that. She was that worried, now she always has to live with that fear. It took her this long just to tell you how she felt that day. But the fact that she is telling you this is a good sign of trust returning.
> 
> draconis


yeah, what happened because of that moment is so sad. it seems to have unravelled a wonderful love. we were so passionate, intensely in love. i hope you're right about the trust. she tells me stuff now that i think she'd used to hold back for fear of hurting me. stupid stuff. now she just tells me.
i like that i handle it fine.

the holidays, as i said, are going to be so tough. today she went to pick up the christmas cards. every year we do a family portrait card. this year my picture will not be on them. that makes me so sad.

the upside is we did sit down for a couple hours watching tv and getting updated on all the comings and goings, including stuff with the kids' precious little kitty. and beth talking so nicely to me really helps me get through the evening.

what i'd really like to know is this: how can i get her to translate to me what "gimme some time" means. i don't want to ask her point-blank. i don't wanna be like the guy who is pressuring her and push her over the ledge. logic tells me that if she still loves me, it should not be that hard, but i don't wanna appear pressuring.


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## keefy1972

Logic, in your situation, won't work. You want this too bad I think. You want her to translate "gimme some time" and I'm sure she wants some space. Love her by respecting her wishes.. Just back off a tad and know in your heart it will all work out. Love is a precious thing, and if it's forced, it can turn sour in a hurry. 

I can almost feel your love for this person through this post. It is, sometimes, impossible, to not appear pushy when you want something so much. Just step back and let her have some space.


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## Sprite

"gimme some time" can not be translated into a specific time period! For each person it is different! SHE NEEDS TIME TO HEAL!!! She needs time to come to terms with it on her own. She doesn't even know how long it will take so she will not be able to answer that question for you if you asked...and I highly suggest you do NOT ask it no matter how badly you want an answer.

Logic is out the window for her right now. She is protecting herself from future hurt and diappointment by not allowing her logic to kick in. She is also setting an example for your children. She is showing them that if a spouse treats you badly, you do NOT have put up with it. They learn by example and by watching how you and Beth do things more than your spoken words could ever teach them.

You are getting very impatient and that is understandable...but...remember this......you put her through how many years of "hell"??? and now how much time of you being "great"??? They don't equal out do they? The "hell years" WAY out number the "great"....you have a lot to prove still and a long way to go before you break even. She is probably asking herself...If I let him back in completely, will it be worth the time and effort in the end? Or will it eventually, somewhere along the way, go back to how it was before? She will NOT allow herself to go back there no matter how much she loves you! And you can tell her until you are blue in the face that you are for real and will not change who you are now...but those are just words to her right now. 

She dealt with you for how many years? Don't you think she got impatient during that time also? But she stuck it out for what ever reason(my thinking is because she loves you) without complaining about it. 

It is not easy for you to back off because you want to spend every waking minute with her, you want her to see this man you have become, and you want her to know that you are for real and have no intentions of having another drink for the rest of your life. But past experiences have brought her to the point where she doesn't trust it. 

You have brought her to her breaking point, and in my honest opinion you do NOT have the right to ask "when is this going to be fixed". She is not punishing you, although you may feel like this...but your punishment (for messing things up in the first place) is to find the patience and understanding to let this run its course. She had patience and understanding for you for how many years? Give it back to her!


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## draconis

gimme some time means she needs time to grow and the space to do it, that she doesn't want you to be pushy at all. She wants to make the decision to get back with you not out of pressure or pity but out of love, longing and affection.

draconis


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## swedish

voivod said:


> she tells me stuff now that i think she'd used to hold back for fear of hurting me. stupid stuff. now she just tells me.
> i like that i handle it fine.


See, voi...He does have a plan...Beth is slowly learning that she can share her feelings and feel loved, supported. What you are doing with parenting, work advice & mostly how you handle it fine is speeding up the process for her...you are giving her a safe place to land. She no longer needs to deal with all of this internally, on her own. I love hearing this...IT'S GONNA HAPPEN!


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## StrongEnough

swedish said:


> See, voi...He does have a plan...Beth is slowly learning that she can share her feelings and feel loved, supported. What you are doing with parenting, work advice & mostly how you handle it fine is speeding up the process for her...you are giving her a safe place to land. She no longer needs to deal with all of this internally, on her own. I love hearing this...IT'S GONNA HAPPEN!


:iagree:

Maintain all the great things you are doing!


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## voivod

you all seem to have insight on this that i am slow to pick up...thank you for that...

beth invited me over to watch a christmas movie...again...what in the world is going on here??? i start to feel a little distant and a tad, dare i say desperate, and *boom* she make the call and i'm back on cloud nine!!! we had fun, and the kids did too...

turns out the christmas portrait cards that i was so bummed out about not being included on...the kids were only in the picture, so my omission does not appear so obvious...

sprite...i have decided not to ask about the gimme some time statement, but my daughter really wants to know...she has been so tuned into this separation...and you make an interesting point...because the "great" years and the "hell" years are difficult to separate...our "great" times are a large amount...she documents them with scrapbooks that she periodically makes...and in them she makes statements like "we are truly blessed" and the like...but i know the "hell" times were there too...and i had NO IDEA how much of a toll i took on her through the years with my behavior, the jealousy, control, etc. i really did not know.

keefy...i think i'm just now understanding your statement about logic not working. i have been asking myself what the logic behind her holding out so long...and it just doesn't compute in my head...

drac...i think your logic makes the most sense...how she wants to decide for the right reasons...

swedish...isn't it funny...how i have all these things to work on, but yet it's HER that is working on things herself...

i get such a good feeling moving forward...as you can tell, i really take the little stuff and let it get to me, yet when i look at the big picture, i sure should be optimistic...


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## StrongEnough

voivod said:


> you all seem to have insight on this that i am slow to pick up...thank you for that...
> 
> beth invited me over to watch a christmas movie...again...what in the world is going on here??? i start to feel a little distant and a tad, dare i say desperate, and *boom* she make the call and i'm back on cloud nine!!! we had fun, and the kids did too...
> 
> turns out the christmas portrait cards that i was so bummed out about not being included on...the kids were only in the picture, so my omission does not appear so obvious...
> 
> sprite...i have decided not to ask about the gimme some time statement, but my daughter really wants to know...she has been so tuned into this separation...and you make an interesting point...because the "great" years and the "hell" years are difficult to separate...our "great" times are a large amount...she documents them with scrapbooks that she periodically makes...and in them she makes statements like "we are truly blessed" and the like...but i know the "hell" times were there too...and i had NO IDEA how much of a toll i took on her through the years with my behavior, the jealousy, control, etc. i really did not know.
> 
> keefy...i think i'm just now understanding your statement about logic not working. i have been asking myself what the logic behind her holding out so long...and it just doesn't compute in my head...
> 
> drac...i think your logic makes the most sense...how she wants to decide for the right reasons...
> 
> swedish...isn't it funny...how i have all these things to work on, but yet it's HER that is working on things herself...
> 
> i get such a good feeling moving forward...as you can tell, i really take the little stuff and let it get to me, yet when i look at the big picture, i sure should be optimistic...


I am so glad to hear that Beth invited you to do something again! See she is coming around. Good also to hear that the christmas card issue was not a hateful, leaving you out kind of thing! It is easy for the outsiders to see the progress a bit more because we don't have all the emotional investment that you do, so while we might be "picking up" on things you are missing, its that we are seeing from a different viewpoint.


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## voivod

StrongEnough said:


> I am so glad to hear that Beth invited you to do something again! See she is coming around. Good also to hear that the christmas card issue was not a hateful, leaving you out kind of thing! It is easy for the outsiders to see the progress a bit more because we don't have all the emotional investment that you do, so while we might be "picking up" on things you are missing, its that we are seeing from a different viewpoint.


so honestly strongenough, you see progress in this relationship? i want to have hope, obviously. but i don't want to be floating around in the clouds forever.


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## StrongEnough

voivod said:


> so honestly strongenough, you see progress in this relationship? i want to have hope, obviously. but i don't want to be floating around in the clouds forever.


Yes, I honestly see a LOT of hope. All of that is based upon what you have stated in this thread. I was Beth (not Beth, but feeling the same way and in the same position). From my perspective, her wall is falling down BUT she is hesitant because she wants to be sure that all the changing is for good. Good things are happening and I can't wait for your success story to be posted on here!


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## voivod

StrongEnough said:


> Yes, I honestly see a LOT of hope. All of that is based upon what you have stated in this thread. I was Beth (not Beth, but feeling the same way and in the same position). From my perspective, her wall is falling down BUT she is hesitant because she wants to be sure that all the changing is for good. Good things are happening and I can't wait for your success story to be posted on here!


i tell it like it is on this thread, so i hope you are reading it correct strongenough...what could i do to guarantee that the changes are real and permanent? are there words that would make it more clear? i am trying to be patient, but my thought is that she is just riding this out, enjoying me being the good boy and decent man. if i said "okay, i guarantee you that you will be happy, i will not be insecure, jealous, controlling (all those things she hates) and us being together will prove that to you" would that help? i'm a little hestitant to approach her like that, again, because i want her to not feel pressured. but man, i think this is just going on and on.

part of me actually says that i should start making demands as to getting back together. another part of me says don't push it. but if i don't push it, am i going to be going through this forever. i mean, what motivation does beth have to ever move in together again? i'm a prince right now. my counselor insists that forcing the issue is going to make her feel like i'm being controlling again. so i haven't taken that step. but gosh again, why should she commit to living together again? she's got it just how she wants it now.


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## StrongEnough

voivod said:


> i tell it like it is on this thread, so i hope you are reading it correct strongenough...what could i do to guarantee that the changes are real and permanent? are there words that would make it more clear? i am trying to be patient, but my thought is that she is just riding this out, enjoying me being the good boy and decent man. if i said "okay, i guarantee you that you will be happy, i will not be insecure, jealous, controlling (all those things she hates) and us being together will prove that to you" would that help? i'm a little hestitant to approach her like that, again, because i want her to not feel pressured. but man, i think this is just going on and on.
> 
> part of me actually says that i should start making demands as to getting back together. another part of me says don't push it. but if i don't push it, am i going to be going through this forever. i mean, what motivation does beth have to ever move in together again? i'm a prince right now. my counselor insists that forcing the issue is going to make her feel like i'm being controlling again. so i haven't taken that step. but gosh again, why should she commit to living together again? she's got it just how she wants it now.


I am glad that you tell it like it is and are very honest. I don't think that there are any guarantees to anything in this world. I think maintaining all the positive changes you have made are great and a HUGE step in getting Beth to see that. It will take time and I know that you want her back home with you. BUT, you do not want to be controlling or give an ultimatum. I think that will backfire for you. See you want Beth to come home on her own terms, not feel like you begged and pleaded to get her home. I don't see you begging and pleading, but do you understand what I mean? She needs to be the one to make the decision when she is ready. (You have to be ready too!) You can promise her everything, but until she decides that it is time, she won't be ready.
I think you have made some great positive changes in your life and I sincerely want this to work. I understand that patience is extremely difficult. I believe that Beth loves you, but she is very scared. She doesn't want to do all this again and I am sure you don't either. I think your counselor is right-don't rush it because 10 years from now you do not want her regretting her decision to come back to you when she wasn't ready. I strongly believe that God has a plan for all of us. The plan just involves a longer route for some of us. 
I would continue to show love to her and let her know that you love her and are committed. Flowers for no reason, a good book she has been wanting to read. Also, I have noticed that Beth usually does the inviting to the things you guys do. How about inviting Beth out for say Sunday brunch and maybe do something fun, something you have never done before (we did a hot air balloon ride and it was a BLAST). Or maybe take that Sunday drive. Just some time for the two of you where you make the effort to arrange the date. I would probably do something cheesy like send a text, you are cordially invited to do ............... with me this weekend. Please RSVP or something silly. Make her laugh and set up the day to be nothing but fun and help her remember what she loves about you and why she wants to be with you. Also, I would make the arrangements for a sitter for the kids. Make it as effortless as possible. That way she can go and enjoy the day with you. What do you think?


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## Guest

Voi it just dawned on me why its taking this long. Your wife spent three days by your side and had a realization that her being in physical contact with you saved you.

I want you to put yourself in a spot that I think I believe she was at mentally. I would bet she went places in her mind that none of us will ever know with watching our loved one at deaths door. You were at deaths door and she likely had gone thru some emotional lows like none of us will know until we lose a loved one. The difference is she didn't lose that person. But the severe emotional strain was already done to her. She lived something you will never know, so when you slipped and drank that beer, she was thrown back to your bedside again. I bet you can't imagine what a hell that was for her. 

Long story short, slow down and let her come to you. Maybe even give her a little breathing room. I've been told myself to back off and let her come to me. Maybe you can change up your tactics a little. But you got to understand, she was in a place we won't likely ever know ourselves. Give her that understanding and relax about the relationship. If there is anything, she is still there with you and is giving you one heck of a lot of love already. I wish I could get that amount of love from my own wife. Instead I keep hearing how much she probably was falling out of love with me. 

Give her some credit in the form of patience. Let her breath a little and if your not right there at her beckoned call, she might turn around and start coming back to you.


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## voivod

StrongEnough said:


> I am glad that you tell it like it is and are very honest. I don't think that there are any guarantees to anything in this world. I think maintaining all the positive changes you have made are great and a HUGE step in getting Beth to see that. It will take time and I know that you want her back home with you. BUT, you do not want to be controlling or give an ultimatum. I think that will backfire for you. See you want Beth to come home on her own terms, not feel like you begged and pleaded to get her home. I don't see you begging and pleading, but do you understand what I mean? She needs to be the one to make the decision when she is ready. You can promise her everything, but until she decides that it is time, she won't be ready.


actually i did beg and plead the day she decided to leave. i was frankly shocked, considering the way she stood by me through my illness i thought she would never leave. but i have not done that since. i'm ready to let it be her decision to come home. i'm just having a heck of a time waiting. and i wish i had a better way to tell if she was getting closer to deciding.



StrongEnough said:


> I think you have made some great positive changes in your life and I sincerely want this to work. I understand that patience is extremely difficult. I believe that Beth loves you, but she is very scared. She doesn't want to do all this again and I am sure you don't either.


agreed. i never want to go thru this again.



StrongEnough said:


> I think your counselor is right-don't rush it because 10 years from now you do not want her regretting her decision to come back to you when she wasn't ready. I strongly believe that God has a plan for all of us. The plan just involves a longer route for some of us. ?


as i said before, i think i understand why He is making it difficult for me. so i will never take my family for granted again.




StrongEnough said:


> I would continue to show love to her and let her know that you love her and are committed. Flowers for no reason, a good book she has been wanting to read. Also, I have noticed that Beth usually does the inviting to the things you guys do.


well, i do some inviting too, but she does a fair amount on her own. she's not really a "planner" so when she decides she wants to do something, it comes quick.




StrongEnough said:


> How about inviting Beth out for say Sunday brunch and maybe do something fun, something you have never done before (we did a hot air balloon ride and it was a BLAST). Or maybe take that Sunday drive. Just some time for the two of you where you make the effort to arrange the date. I would probably do something cheesy like send a text, you are cordially invited to do ............... with me this weekend. Please RSVP or something silly. Make her laugh and set up the day to be nothing but fun and help her remember what she loves about you and why she wants to be with you. Also, I would make the arrangements for a sitter for the kids. Make it as effortless as possible. That way she can go and enjoy the day with you. What do you think?


i think when the counselor asked her about why she fell in love with me originally she said "because he was FUN." so i think that makes sense. she points to our many family vacations (which i was largely responsible for) as the "fun" and "blessed" times. i think you bring up a good idea. we're such outdoorsy folks, and it's so cold this time of year around here. summer is our time. we had a good time so often this past summer.


----------



## voivod

StrongEnough said:


> I am glad that you tell it like it is and are very honest. I don't think that there are any guarantees to anything in this world. I think maintaining all the positive changes you have made are great and a HUGE step in getting Beth to see that. It will take time and I know that you want her back home with you. BUT, you do not want to be controlling or give an ultimatum. I think that will backfire for you. See you want Beth to come home on her own terms, not feel like you begged and pleaded to get her home. I don't see you begging and pleading, but do you understand what I mean? She needs to be the one to make the decision when she is ready. You can promise her everything, but until she decides that it is time, she won't be ready.


actually i did beg and plead the day she decided to leave. i was frankly shocked, considering the way she stood by me through my illness i thought she would never leave. but i have not done that since. i'm ready to let it be her decision to come home. i'm just having a heck of a time waiting. and i wish i had a better way to tell if she was getting closer to deciding.



StrongEnough said:


> I think you have made some great positive changes in your life and I sincerely want this to work. I understand that patience is extremely difficult. I believe that Beth loves you, but she is very scared. She doesn't want to do all this again and I am sure you don't either.


agreed. i never want to go thru this again.



StrongEnough said:


> I think your counselor is right-don't rush it because 10 years from now you do not want her regretting her decision to come back to you when she wasn't ready. I strongly believe that God has a plan for all of us. The plan just involves a longer route for some of us. ?


as i said before, i think i understand why He is making it difficult for me. so i will never take my family for granted again.




StrongEnough said:


> I would continue to show love to her and let her know that you love her and are committed. Flowers for no reason, a good book she has been wanting to read. Also, I have noticed that Beth usually does the inviting to the things you guys do.


well, i do some inviting too, but she does a fair amount on her own. she's not really a "planner" so when she decides she wants to do something, it comes quick.




StrongEnough said:


> How about inviting Beth out for say Sunday brunch and maybe do something fun, something you have never done before (we did a hot air balloon ride and it was a BLAST). Or maybe take that Sunday drive. Just some time for the two of you where you make the effort to arrange the date. I would probably do something cheesy like send a text, you are cordially invited to do ............... with me this weekend. Please RSVP or something silly. Make her laugh and set up the day to be nothing but fun and help her remember what she loves about you and why she wants to be with you. Also, I would make the arrangements for a sitter for the kids. Make it as effortless as possible. That way she can go and enjoy the day with you. What do you think?


i think when the counselor asked her about why she fell in love with me originally she said "because he was FUN." so i think that makes sense. she points to our many family vacations (which i was largely responsible for) as the "fun" and "blessed" times. i think you bring up a good idea. we're such outdoorsy folks, and it's so cold this time of year around here. summer is our time. we had a good time so often this past summer.

could you please give me some idea as to how to know when a woman's walls are coming down, because i missed an opportunity. apparently almost all of august she was (nearly)ready to believe me, and more recently my daughter says she was close as well. how do you tell? or how can a guy help?


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## draconis

you know as well as any that marriage is a partnership were two people need to work together as one. But both need to approach and add to it. It seems like she is reinvesting into the marriage and herself. Much the same as you are even though she holds the keys, you both are becoming much better people, and the blessed times will be small considering he great new road ahead, and I am sure your kids will see a much better home and love.

draconis


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## voivod

hey all--
a bit of a breakthrough i think in the past few days i'd like to tell you about and get your reaction to.

i had mentioned that every year we get family portrait christmas cards. anyway, my wife has done a nice job with appearances, making sure everything looks "normal" to the outside world. even going out of her way to not "look separated" during parent-teacher conferences. so this year's portrait cards have a picture of just the kids, so she's not the only adult in the picture. i know she made a concious decision for it to be like that.

now for christmas itself. my 11 year old daughter went out of her way to let me know that mom had already done christmas shopping for me. she told me mom chose as a gift one of the "traditional" items that we buy for one another every year. that brought a warmth to my heart, leading me to believe that she is beginning to soften a bit.

in addition, it's my oldest daughter's birthday tomorrow. this is the daughter that has run interference for mom during this separation and been a real hard-heart. anyway, her and i have been getting along much better the past several weeks, and mom has acknowledged that daughter hasn't exactly played fair through the separation. so, we sat and planned the party for daughter's birthday, and it is gonna be just like the parties of the past, just family, with daddy getting to play the same role as past birthdays. beth actually seemed to enjoy me being a part of things, like the old days. 

i can't quite translate how it feels to be involved at this level in our family's dealings. but it feels like her feelings are coming together and making sense.

i look forward to the christmas holiday so much that i actually went out last night and purchased a christmas tree (something i did not envision doing this year).


----------



## StrongEnough

voivod said:


> hey all--
> a bit of a breakthrough i think in the past few days i'd like to tell you about and get your reaction to.
> 
> i had mentioned that every year we get family portrait christmas cards. anyway, my wife has done a nice job with appearances, making sure everything looks "normal" to the outside world. even going out of her way to not "look separated" during parent-teacher conferences. so this year's portrait cards have a picture of just the kids, so she's not the only adult in the picture. i know she made a concious decision for it to be like that.
> 
> now for christmas itself. my 11 year old daughter went out of her way to let me know that mom had already done christmas shopping for me. she told me mom chose as a gift one of the "traditional" items that we buy for one another every year. that brought a warmth to my heart, leading me to believe that she is beginning to soften a bit.
> 
> in addition, it's my oldest daughter's birthday tomorrow. this is the daughter that has run interference for mom during this separation and been a real hard-heart. anyway, her and i have been getting along much better the past several weeks, and mom has acknowledged that daughter hasn't exactly played fair through the separation. so, we sat and planned the party for daughter's birthday, and it is gonna be just like the parties of the past, just family, with daddy getting to play the same role as past birthdays. beth actually seemed to enjoy me being a part of things, like the old days.
> 
> i can't quite translate how it feels to be involved at this level in our family's dealings. but it feels like her feelings are coming together and making sense.
> 
> i look forward to the christmas holiday so much that i actually went out last night and purchased a christmas tree (something i did not envision doing this year).


:smthumbup:
Yeah! Great to hear! Happy birthday to your kiddo! Glad to see that you and Beth are working together on the party (a joint project is always good!)


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## voivod

Jason said:


> Voi it just dawned on me why its taking this long. Your wife spent three days by your side and had a realization that her being in physical contact with you saved you.
> 
> I want you to put yourself in a spot that I think I believe she was at mentally. I would bet she went places in her mind that none of us will ever know with watching our loved one at deaths door. You were at deaths door and she likely had gone thru some emotional lows like none of us will know until we lose a loved one. The difference is she didn't lose that person. But the severe emotional strain was already done to her. She lived something you will never know, so when you slipped and drank that beer, she was thrown back to your bedside again. I bet you can't imagine what a hell that was for her.
> 
> Long story short, slow down and let her come to you. Maybe even give her a little breathing room. I've been told myself to back off and let her come to me. Maybe you can change up your tactics a little. But you got to understand, she was in a place we won't likely ever know ourselves. Give her that understanding and relax about the relationship. If there is anything, she is still there with you and is giving you one heck of a lot of love already. I wish I could get that amount of love from my own wife. Instead I keep hearing how much she probably was falling out of love with me.
> 
> Give her some credit in the form of patience. Let her breath a little and if your not right there at her beckoned call, she might turn around and start coming back to you.


jason,
every day brings new information. she told me last night that my neurologist told her "don't expect chris to make it through the night." trust me, if someone told me that about beth, i don't know how i would handle it. i'm sure it had quite an effect on her.

the hell that she experienced...i can't imagine it. she spent days telling me and my kids and my mother lies to keep our spirits up. she told me point blank that the doctors said i "was gonna be fine." she told me last night that it was a psychological ploy, that she was gonna make my recovery be "all in my head." she is smart that way, always guiding the family the right direction with her strong will.

i don't know if she has changed for good, or if this is only temporary, but i do see a difference in her love. she is much more guarded, maybe as a protective mode. we were watching a movie a few nights ago and the girl in the movie fell madly in love with a guy she was doing peace corps with, and she made the comment "see what love does to you?" i think she's changed. i hope not, but whatever it takes for her survival, i understand.

anyway, thanks for your response. it meant something to me.


----------



## voivod

draconis said:


> you know as well as any that marriage is a partnership were two people need to work together as one. But both need to approach and add to it. It seems like she is reinvesting into the marriage and herself. Much the same as you are even though she holds the keys, you both are becoming much better people, and the blessed times will be small considering he great new road ahead, and I am sure your kids will see a much better home and love.
> 
> draconis


draconis--

i agree, it has already paid dividends in ways that i woud not expect. i cried tears of joy yesterday...mostly because of the way she's handling the holidays and putting so much care into choosing gifts for me (i have a little elf giving me clues!)

check out the past few posts and see if you are reading thingas the way i am. i see some serious hope.


----------



## voivod

had a funny discussion about on of the doctors she works with. apparently this doctor asks about me a lot. and beth said this doctor used to avoid her because "she saw your mri" and thought i wasn't gonna come out of this stroke so good. the point is, these ladies are all friends of beth's and if there was "doom" talk about our marriage, they would almost assuredly avoid talking about me. beth said tonight that "doctor (blank) asks about you ALOT." i know these ladies. they wouldn't be asking if beth was giving "dead in the water" vibes. that and she is a knockout and she's purposefully avoiding being put in situations that would make herself appear "available." i really am feeling good about things. cross your fingers, say a prayer, whatever you do, do it please!


----------



## draconis

You know every post I read of yours I see HOPE, GROWTH or both. It is a good sign that she talks good about you. That the christmas cards were not exclusive of you and that people ask about you.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> You know every post I read of yours I see HOPE, GROWTH or both. It is a good sign that she talks good about you. That the christmas cards were not exclusive of you and that people ask about you.
> 
> draconis


dude, thanks! i'll upload the pic for our christmas cards...4 beautiful children...

hey by the way, the notion of us living together came up tonight...apparently i "have not yet proven myself to be trustworthy" yet...


----------



## StrongEnough

voivod said:


> had a funny discussion about on of the doctors she works with. apparently this doctor asks about me a lot. and beth said this doctor used to avoid her because "she saw your mri" and thought i wasn't gonna come out of this stroke so good. the point is, these ladies are all friends of beth's and if there was "doom" talk about our marriage, they would almost assuredly avoid talking about me. beth said tonight that "doctor (blank) asks about you ALOT." i know these ladies. they wouldn't be asking if beth was giving "dead in the water" vibes. that and she is a knockout and she's purposefully avoiding being put in situations that would make herself appear "available." i really am feeling good about things. cross your fingers, say a prayer, whatever you do, do it please!


Awesome! Great to hear! So did you get Beth a Christmas gift? I know you mentioned that she got you something very heartfelt. If you haven't gotten anything, any ideas? I am looking for some ideas myself!


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## voivod

StrongEnough said:


> Awesome! Great to hear! So did you get Beth a Christmas gift? I know you mentioned that she got you something very heartfelt. If you haven't gotten anything, any ideas? I am looking for some ideas myself!


i have not gotten a gift for beth yet, but i sure am going to. the gift that my daughter told me about wasn't terribly extravagant, but something that makes me realize she was thinking about me when she bought it. and the fact that she showed it off to the kids, like she was proud.

she knows me well, she knows what her gift will mean to me. 

do you yet have any ideas that might open her mind up to 
"get back together" conversation? y'know she mentioned something about me earning the right to be believed a couple of nights ago. saying how i've proven the under certain circumstances i couldn't be believed, so i think she's weighing it out.


----------



## draconis

Well at least it cam up and you know it is a yet, meaning that she expects a bit more. But you can get there, and better yet she expects you to get there.

draconis


----------



## voivod

draconis--
yes, i feel like she's kinda cheering for me to "get there" but i think she kinda needs to be pushed a little too. i get that feeling for no real reason, but i think she's the kinda girl who need to be told "this is the way things are gonna be." i'm kinda looking for ways to sound forceful without sounding pushy with regard to getting back together. i'm thinking it's getting to be about time.

all the girls she works with are familiar with me and our situation, and beth put us in a "us against the world" kinda position with the girls at work today. i think she's getting that ol' familiar feeling back. i don't wanna blow things up, i just wanna speed things up a bit. the ladies following this thread have been real cognizant of the "slow and steady" plan i've been doing, and it's working. but maybe i'm getting a little too comfortable with the status quo. i want some advice on how to position myself to take charge and fix this thing now. or if that is a bad idea, someone to tell me that. do you understand?


----------



## draconis

This is where I tell you you need to learn to communicate better because you hear what she is saying but you don't listen to her. She has to want to do it, and she has already given reservations to the now idea as being to soon. Time is working for you, but she needs more of it. Let her be secure. This isn't about settling because I doubt you would for this. This is about her feeling comfortable getting back with you. A good conversation about what she has seen that she likes might be a first step followed by what else can I do for you. I think you are in sales mode of rapping things up and she is still studing.

draconis


----------



## voivod

draconis said:


> This is where I tell you you need to learn to communicate better because you hear what she is saying but you don't listen to her. She has to want to do it, and she has already given reservations to the now idea as being to soon. Time is working for you, but she needs more of it. Let her be secure. This isn't about settling because I doubt you would for this. This is about her feeling comfortable getting back with you. A good conversation about what she has seen that she likes might be a first step followed by what else can I do for you. I think you are in sales mode of rapping things up and she is still studing.
> 
> draconis


yeah draconis--
i got a dose of not communicating so well tonight. i admit, i'm smelling blood, and appearing to be the frenzied shark. i really should take the advice of you and my daughter, who says "let mom decide." the sales comparison is perfect. my best close ever is no close. in other words, the customer is sold on the benefits, and they close themselves, happily. i need for her to feel completely comfortable. she has shown signs lately, and that's why i'm getting jumpy i think. i'll back off.


----------



## swedish

you haven't proven yourself to be trustworthy....YET...

To me, that says you are doing all of the right things...you just need to do them a little longer...how does that xlate into time? Only Beth will know that and she probably will only know it when it feels right...there is no schedule.

It keeps getting more positive, voivod....keep on truckin'


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## voivod

swedish said:


> you haven't proven yourself to be trustworthy....YET...
> 
> To me, that says you are doing all of the right things...you just need to do them a little longer...how does that xlate into time? Only Beth will know that and she probably will only know it when it feels right...there is no schedule.
> 
> It keeps getting more positive, voivod....keep on truckin'


but what if she decides that i can't be proven trustworthy? that is a fear i have, or that she becomes too comfortable in our current arrangement? this is potentially very sad.


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## draconis

She wouldn't work so hard to keep things as is or make you jump through so many hops for as is, I wouldn't worry about that. I would worry about what you need to do to get there.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> She wouldn't work so hard to keep things as is or make you jump through so many hoops for as is, I wouldn't worry about that. I would worry about what you need to do to get there.
> 
> draconis


she does seem so very much like she's not making any effort to go in the wrong direction. now i get texts from her like "how are you feeling?" (i've been sick) and "the snow is sticking, drive carefully", nice stuff that she doesn't have to do. but what hoops am i being made to jump through draconis? i worry about what it is that i need to do to get there. my question really is:

what DO i need to do to "get there"???


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## draconis

Rebuild her trust in you.

She loves you, and yet fears you might revert to the man that scared her.

The hoops as time, and showing her she can trust you, and that all your promises are not nor will be hollow.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis--
i kinda figured out why we don't communicate as well as we should right now. i fear asking her pointed questions about us getting back together because i feel like she'll feel pressured by my questions and react in a bad way. what i hafta figure out is what she meant when she told my daughter that she "needed some time." if it was all about giving her time, i think that would be no problem. but i feel like i need to catch her "in love" with me again. i'm having a hard time exposing that nerve. and i worry that i've somehow killed that emotion.

how could we have gone from her telling me in february that she'll feel the same way ten years from now as she does right now (i love you i love you i love you) to april when she says "you are the boy i fell in love with in 1991" to "give me some time" to we aren't getting back together. that last part is my own interpretation of what is NOT going on now. i mean (and maybe some of the ladies on this forum can provide an answer) how have we gone from having that unbelievably passionate love to zero that quickly. i know i've had those control and jealousy issues, but crap, she's been wildly in love with me, the kind that brings tears to your eyes. now, i feel nothing. can the good love come back? what would i need to do? please help me.

i'm adding this last paragraph after just getting a call from beth. she was in tears, telling me the story of how she just ran into an old family friend who's daughter was diagnosed with brain cancer. she was crying, saying "this has been the most horrible year ever." she's referring to my stroke, our breakup, numurous friends who've gone through crap, and now this brain cancer scare. i know she wants us to heal. she doesn't want this year to be the year of the "rat." she hates us falling apart. how can i bring this family back together so we don't become a black mark on 2008? i love her too much to have her hurt like this over a whole year in her life. i am almost ready to tell her to let me show her how we can heal, just let me lead the way. but i don't want to be pushy or pressuring. but the whole "give me time" thing just keeps ringing in my head. has she not had enough time? isn't 5 month enough time?


----------



## skinman

Voivod,

your in my prayers friend I hope your wife doesn't do what mine did and throw it all away... Keep strong and the communication open.. let her come to you when she is ready... I know its hard you want to talk about you and her getting back together but it would seem she is not ready for those kind of talks... Keep trying to make yourself happy and work on yourself.... I am pulling for you buddy... you know my situation is beyond hope so I am putting all of my hope and prayers with you... I wish you luck and much strength...


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## voivod

skinman said:


> Voivod,
> 
> your in my prayers friend I hope your wife doesn't do what mine did and throw it all away... Keep strong and the communication open.. let her come to you when she is ready... I know its hard you want to talk about you and her getting back together but it would seem she is not ready for those kind of talks... Keep trying to make yourself happy and work on yourself.... I am pulling for you buddy... you know my situation is beyond hope so I am putting all of my hope and prayers with you... I wish you luck and much strength...


skin,
thanks bro...it's one step forward tonight. i was so "in the ditch" all night last night and most of today. then i was asked to bring a christmas movie and popcorn over. so i did. we watched "elf" and had a fun time. then when she popped the movie out of the dvd player, "it's a wonderful life" was playing on nbc. she said "don't go home and watch it" because i was planning on watching it with you next saturday." holy crap my heart skipped a beat when she said it was "our" christmas movie. she said YOU bought it for ME. it's OURS. wowww. talk about getting that old warm feeling back!

in addition she told me i'm not "strokey" anymore. that was a term we used through my rehab. we always kept a sense of humor about the physical aspects of having a stroke. my son actually named my arm "monkey arm" because it was considerably weaker than my non-stroke-affected arm. we laughed out loud at the "family guy" episode when peter had a stroke. anyway, she finally acknowledged that i'm all the way back physically, although i'm not really. just about. anyway, she's satisfied with my comeback and that means a lot to me.


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod-

What's happening with her lease renewal?


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## draconis

Glad to hear things are still looking up for you.

draconis


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> voivod-
> 
> What's happening with her lease renewal?


month to month now....same rent


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## draconis

voivod said:


> month to month now....same rent


hmm...something that allows her and you time yet allows her to get back with you at any time. That to is a good sign.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> hmm...something that allows her and you time yet allows her to get back with you at any time. That to is a good sign.
> 
> draconis


yeah, i kinda thought so too. and she had me in for dinner tonight. why in the hell does she do these things? does she not know that i'm interpreting it as a legitimate 2nd chance????

if she is sensing anything now, it's me trying not to give up, drac. this has been the hardest thing ever for me. i want to believe that we are getting closer to getting better. we shared a tear for a family friend who's 15 year old daughter was diagnosed with brain cancer, then she went back to saying how 2008 has been such a terrible year. she includes my oldest's brain injury, our separation and the brain cancer of this little girl. the one she has complete control of is the separation. i wish she'd grab ahold of our circumstances and make this go away!!!

now i wonder how long this can go on. i mean, i am absolutely not going to have sex with another woman, and it's clear to me that neither is beth (she considers it a matter of maturity). but i just can't go on never knowing when "the next time" will be. and it's funny, we had a quick conversation about our body flaws tonight, she pointed out something on her, to which i said "don't kid yourself, you are beautiful." she blushed, knowing that i was checking her out, which made me a little desirous of her. yes, that's how many of our love making sessions started out in the "old days." me checking her out, her getting flustered and embarrassed, considering my open compliments about her body, and *boom* there we were.

so it's difficult trying to avoid the "next step" out of respect for her and her feelings. and here's the thing (and i'm sure most guys think along the same way)...if i get her to that point...separation over. that's not me saying i'm any major cassanova, just that our sex life was so intense, it would win her back if we got to that point. so respect is holding me back.

this is where someone jumps in to tell me how i should be a better communicator. i know, but i'm, doing what i'm best at.


----------



## voivod

draconis said:


> hmm...something that allows her and you time yet allows her to get back with you at any time. That to is a good sign.
> 
> draconis


i hope you're right about it being a good sign...i think the longer this goes on is a bad sign. why do you figure she's stringing me along?


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> funny, we had a quick conversation about our body flaws tonight, she pointed out something on her, to which i said "don't kid yourself, you are beautiful." she blushed, knowing that i was checking her out, which made me a little desirous of her. yes, that's how many of our love making sessions started out in the "old days." me checking her out, her getting flustered and embarrassed, considering my open compliments about her body, and *boom* there we were.


I told you before, you need to flirt with her as much as you can get away with. Keep it light and fun.


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## Sprite

Voi, it sounds like everyting is right on track. You should be hopefull for that second chance, but don't be pushy about it. You want answers, but she is not ready to give you definate answers right now...she is still waiting to see if you can be trustworthy again. I know as a man doing everything you can do to right all the wrong form the past, you cant understand this....but its not a bad thing. She wants to make sure without a doubt that you will not go back to the man you were before. She holds herself back from you because she is scared, not because she doesn't love you. She wants to still "watch and see" how you handle situtations, and as long as you keep showing her that NO MATTER WHAT, you are not going back to the alcohol or your old ways, you are making points with her. But, she isn't going to let YOU know that!

One of the things that helps me is that my husband reassures me through words that he is NOT going back to the man he used to be. He says..."I know I sound like a broken record(because he tells me at least 3 times a week), but this man you see now in front of you is who I will be until the day I die. I can't believe I became the man I used to be...but he is gone for good...you will NEVER see him again" He promises me he can make me happy and trust him again, and he apologizes almost every day, and thanks me every day. He thanks me for being me and for giving him another chance(even tho I havent expressed to him that he HAS that second chance for sure). He thanks me for sticking by him for so many years even tho he was an idiot. This shows ME, that he DOES understand what I have had to put up with from him. It helps me because I KNOW he now sees what he put me through. He tells me that if he EVER does something I don't like to "hit him over the head with a frying pan"...
For Christmas, I am going to find the biggest fry pan I can, and I am giving it to him as a gift! Then I will hang it on our kitchen wall to remind us both about the communication differences between men and women. Have you honestly expressed how you feel to her? Does she understand what your intentions are? Does she know where YOU see the 2 of you in the future? 

You are on the right track, I mean c'mon....the whole "OUR" movie deal...she doesn't want you watching it without her. It is something small, but it obviously is still very special to her and she wants to keep that special between the 2 of you. THIS is a big deal to her. Show her that it is a big deal to you too...what is her favorite munchie to eat while watching a movie? BRing it for her!!! For her to actually TELL you that its that special to her is a big step for her. 

I am going to tell you again....5 months is NOT enough time!! *brings out the frying pan*(im not going to hit you, i am just reminding you to listen!!!) Stop being impatient!!! You have changed so much, and this is a change Beth would have loved to have seen years ago....BUT....it was partially brought on by circumstances that were out of your control. Beth wants to know why you didnt change before...for her??? You had a life threatening situation that helped you change..she wants to know why it was that and not the fact that you did it for her. In a way, it may be making her feel like she wasnt important enough to you for you to change for her...but it took a very bad situation to make you "see the light". She wants to know what guarentees she has in the future that you will listen to HER and do things for HER and not because of some other situation. She wants to know what guarentees she has that you will not go back to your old ways. There are NO guarentees for the future..so all she can do it be patient and SEE for herself. She is protecting herself from more disappointment and hurt. When she is satisfied that you have "passed the test", she will let you know.

Why is it that men think that "if only she would let me have sex with her..that will change the way she feels". This is NOT ture!!! (my husband thought the same thing,,,if you would just let me touch you and hold you..it will all be better)For most women its about emotions, and if the emotions are still being worked on, sex is pretty much pointless. She doesn't want to let that emotional guard down yet...she wont allow herself to. Having sex with her at this point will not accomplish anything other than her regretting that she let her guard down so soon. But the fact that you made her blush is a step closer...just dont expect it or push it. That is a sacred part of herself that she wants to keep to herself for right now. Keep respecting that! I know it gets frustrating for you guys...but women can hold out for a much longer time(hehehe). I dont want you thinking she doesnt think about it, cuz she does..she just wont let you know that!

This is your biggest "sales" job ever because you are trying to sell yourself to your wife. But, you can not approach it like a normal sale. It is not a matter of signing on the dotted line and boom, the sale is done. She hasnt decided to buy yet..she is still collecting data...so all you can do, is let her know that THIS sale comes with a life long guarentee of honesty, friendship, trust, love, understanding, and whatever else you want to give her. You wont be able to tell her all these things and expect her to believe you. We have all had salepeople lie to us and promise us things that never came to be in the past..so what makes her believe she can believe THIS saleman? Think about it...if you had a saleman that screwed you in the past..would you go back to that same salesman? Would you ever trust that saleman again? He/She would have to do an aweful lot to gain your trust again wouldnt they?


----------



## voivod

Sprite said:


> Voi, it sounds like everyting is right on track. You should be hopefull for that second chance, but don't be pushy about it. You want answers, but she is not ready to give you definate answers right now...she is still waiting to see if you can be trustworthy again. I know as a man doing everything you can do to right all the wrong form the past, you cant understand this....but its not a bad thing. She wants to make sure without a doubt that you will not go back to the man you were before. She holds herself back from you because she is scared, not because she doesn't love you. She wants to still "watch and see" how you handle situtations, and as long as you keep showing her that NO MATTER WHAT, you are not going back to the alcohol or your old ways, you are making points with her. But, she isn't going to let YOU know that!?


so how is it that your husband has convinced you? how long has it taken him? and the hell with alcohol, this isn't about alcohol any more. it's about the poison that i brought to the table in the form of jealousy, control, and being overbearing on her independence/freedom. btw--that's gone too. but how can i prove that from a distance?



Sprite said:


> You are on the right track, I mean c'mon....the whole "OUR" movie deal...she doesn't want you watching it without her. It is something small, but it obviously is still very special to her and she wants to keep that special between the 2 of you. THIS is a big deal to her.


and trust me, the OUR movie deal really brought a smile to my face. i knew what it meant, she clicked right through it on the tv, figuring if i saw it was on i'd run home and turn it on. she WAS saying it's OURS, don't you watch it by yourself. we still laugh about a scene in the movie where George is meeting with his soon to be wife, her mother is upstairs saying "what are you kids doing down there?" and the future mrs. george bailey (can't think of her name now) yells up to her mother "george is making mad, passionate love to me!" funny how language and word usage has changed over the years.



Sprite said:


> Show her that it is a big deal to you too...what is her favorite munchie to eat while watching a movie? Bring it for her!!! For her to actually TELL you that its that special to her is a big step for her.


good point. i think i'm gonna get a copy of the song "buffalo gals, wontcha come out tonight" or make a picture of me "lassoing the moon" (remember the scene from the movie?)



Sprite said:


> I am going to tell you again....5 months is NOT enough time!!


then, i'm going to ask again...how long IS enough time??



Sprite said:


> Beth wants to know why you didnt change before...for her??? You had a life threatening situation that helped you change..she wants to know why it was that and not the fact that you did it for her. In a way, it may be making her feel like she wasnt important enough to you for you to change for her...but it took a very bad situation to make you "see the light". She wants to know what guarentees she has in the future that you will listen to HER and do things for HER and not because of some other situation.


she does...i'm not sure if she wants me to change for her, or for me. 


Sprite said:


> Why is it that men think that "if only she would let me have sex with her..that will change the way she feels". This is NOT ture!!! (my husband thought the same thing,,,if you would just let me touch you and hold you..it will all be better)For most women its about emotions, and if the emotions are still being worked on, sex is pretty much pointless. She doesn't want to let that emotional guard down yet...she wont allow herself to. Having sex with her at this point will not accomplish anything other than her regretting that she let her guard down so soon. But the fact that you made her blush is a step closer...just dont expect it or push it.


i won't push it, but i'll bet you a dollar if we did, she'd be back.



Sprite said:


> This is your biggest "sales" job ever because you are trying to sell yourself to your wife. But, you can not approach it like a normal sale. It is not a matter of signing on the dotted line and boom, the sale is done. She hasnt decided to buy yet..she is still collecting data...so all you can do, is let her know that THIS sale comes with a life long guarentee of honesty, friendship, trust, love, understanding, and whatever else you want to give her. You wont be able to tell her all these things and expect her to believe you. We have all had salepeople lie to us and promise us things that never came to be in the past..so what makes her believe she can believe THIS saleman? Think about it...if you had a saleman that screwed you in the past..would you go back to that same salesman? Would you ever trust that saleman again? He/She would have to do an awful lot to gain your trust again wouldnt they?


then i guess i'm gonna hafta do an awful lot to gain her trust.

thanks sprite.


----------



## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> I told you before, you need to flirt with her as much as you can get away with. Keep it light and fun.


MT-last night it turned into me slapping her rear. she made it awfully easy to do it, reaching over me to lower the blinds. she knows what my reaction is going to be to that move.


----------



## draconis

Look at it from her perspective, she is still hurt and worried. She needs to get over those things by herself otherwise it is all for nothing. She still isn't healed.

Put it to you a better way if a guy walked up and knocked you out but later he said he changed and just wanted to be friends. Isn't it easier for him to move on than you, the person that got sucker punched?

Now think that your wife is in that situation. She hasn't resolved it yet. She hasn't moved on where as it is easier for you to do so.

draconis


----------



## voivod

draconis said:


> Look at it from her perspective, she is still hurt and worried. She needs to get over those things by herself otherwise it is all for nothing. She still isn't healed.
> 
> Put it to you a better way if a guy walked up and knocked you out but later he said he changed and just wanted to be friends. Isn't it easier for him to move on than you, the person that got sucker punched?
> 
> Now think that your wife is in that situation. She hasn't resolved it yet. She hasn't moved on where as it is easier for you to do so.
> 
> draconis


i've always been successful in fixing what is wrong on the surface of our marriage, always! so this is just crazy to me. "gimme some time," statements like that and when i slipped and fell on the ice at work, she says "i wish you wouldn't tell me that, i worry," simple "I care" statements that if she expounded on them, we'd have us a deal. i fear that the longer this goes the easier it's gonna be for her to say "no."


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## draconis

Every time you fix things for her it makes her feel weak and without control. She is enjoying herself and getting self esteem. You really can't "fix" this. It is something she needs to feel comfortable that her terms are met. If you force her back than she will feel crippled. 

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> Every time you fix things for her it makes her feel weak and without control. She is enjoying herself and getting self esteem. You really can't "fix" this. It is something she needs to feel comfortable that her terms are met. If you force her back than she will feel crippled.
> 
> draconis


funny thing is drac,

she's got her own issues. she almost HAS TO be in a broken relationship. you've heard the term "caretaker?" my counselor has pegged beth a "super caretaker." the counselor diagrammed our relationship and, wow, it was dead-on. from her mother, step-father, sisters, step-sisters, everything. i am not sure beth would truly be happy if there was nothing to "fix." that goofball dr. rice even hit it when he said that "alcoholics and codependence go together." he figure we'd get back together if for no other reason than because we "needed" each other.

i just wish her self-esteem didn't take such a beating from our relationship. i would have never let that happen if i knew how it would turn out.


----------



## draconis

As you grow so will she and the relationship, maybe to a dynamic new level.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> As you grow so will she and the relationship, maybe to a dynamic new level.
> 
> draconis


and dude, truthfully, if our relationship stayed exactly how it is now, with dates and no major conflicts, with both of us on the same page as far as parenting, etc. i would be completely happy. in other words, i think the separation would have been productive and would be convinced that we have grown into a new dynamic.

i would wake up every day with the confidence knowing that we had weathered the storm and used our time apart productively. but i guess that's where the frustration comes from. i am satisfied and apparently she is not.?????


----------



## draconis

She wants to KNOW that this is how it always will be.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> She wants to KNOW that this is how it always will be.
> 
> draconis


so, drac, seeing how this is going, are you more, less or same confident that we are going the right direction toward getting back together?

i just wanna have the feeling that i am doing the right things and that her intentions seem to be receptive to my adjustments in life.


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## Sprite

2 years!!!! That is how long it took my husband to START breaking down my wall. He did it by being patient with me and giving me my space(although we did go through a short period where he felt it necessary to hover all the time...a new tactic he was trying which didnt work). He did it by simply being my friend and allowing me to talk to him and it be a 2 way conversation, not just him telling me how I think and feel about something which is how he has always been. It took me a good YEAR before I was comfortable enough, and really started to be totaly open and honest with him about my feelings and thoughts. We did not seperate and I think that was a major advantage he had. If we had been apart, I might not have seen how he has changed so much. 

NO!!!! No matter how much you think a good night of sex will change the way she feels....you are wrong here...trust me..please!!! About 5 months ago, my husband thought the same thing..so I put it in my head that I was going to forget everything and just let myself go and see what happens. It was great for 3 days..but after that..MY wall became stronger and harder for him to break through. I can't really explain why, it just happened that way. I regretting letting myself be so vulnerable to him. He felt bad that a few days of great turned out to be a huge hurdle.

He has been doing the most simple things that he NEVER did before. Like asking me if I need anything from the store before he gets home, offering to do the grocery shopping when it is very cold outside(I hate being cold more than anything), leaving me notes thanking me for still being here, bringing home my favorite muffins from Tim Horton's, not "yelling" at us the minute he walks in the door from work cuz he had a bad day, not getting upset that when the house is a mess. The things that made me KNOW he has changed are the times he offers to help other people(he would NEVER do this before if there was nothing in it for him), supporting his brother thru his divorce and NOT telling him how he should do it. How he has been treating others, that don't involve me, was one of the things that made me realize he IS a changed man. He has been generous, caring, and honest with everyone he comes in contact with. In fact he says he is having a hard time in his job because he used to be a prick to people and that's how he accomplished so much, but he cant be that person any more and is going to look for a new job soon.

No one can put a time limit on how long this will take...you just need to ask yourself...how long are you willing to be this new man? I know you SAY it is for life...but you havent really been able to show it all to Beth, and she still isnt seeing it. She sees it, but she still feels like it will turn itself around if she lets you back in. Chances are, she enjoys the relationship you two have now, but she has no guarentee (other than your words) that this will be for the rest of your lives.

I should really have my H come on here and talk to you, but I don't want him reading my stuff. But trust me, he has debated every thinkable "tactic", he stuggles with being patient and "giving me my space", but no matter how much it kills him to keep his distance..he has done it for ME, and only me. That is big! He puts his feelings and wants aside so I can get through this because he knows he was the root cause of this whole mess. He has been very patient and has been very frustrated that he cant "fix" it immediately. But he now sees that his work is paying off. The best things that helped us were our forums, and our communication. There have been times when I didnt want to "talk"...but he would ask me questions.....the biggest one being..."how are WE doing?" He hates feeling like he is in limbo, not knowing what will happen in the end and wants answers. But he is patient and understanding if I can't give him an answer he is looking for. But above everything else...this is the FIRST time in our 20+ years together that we have been able to have open, honest discussions about everything. This takes some getting used to, i dont know how to react sometimes when he lets me speak my mind and doesnt argue back or tell me i am wrong.

Have you very honestly asked Beth what she sees in the future as far as the 2 of you go? Have you been able to let her speak her mind(if she has gotten to that point yet) without making her feel guilty? Have you been totally honest with her on how YOU feel about her? Do you still tell her you love her...but are ok with it if you dont get a reply back? Does she know how much you suffer because you are not with her? Let her know these things, but don't overwhelm her with them. 

I wish I could just tell you to do this or do that, but I don't know what it is that will work for Beth. All I can tell you is to please please please be patient and dont ever give up on her. It takes time and its a rough road, but it is worth it in the end. The relationship you 2 will have will be better than anything you can imagine. But you have to make a promise to yourself to NOT let it get away from you. My biggest fear right now is that my wall is disappearing...that wall is what made us so close right now...if it is gone, what will be left? 

1 year into my situation we were working through things, but not really together. He was dealing with his issues, and I was dealing with mine. 2 years into it and we are FINALLY communicating the way we should have been all a long, and we are now working together to save it. But after 2 years,I still don't know if I can trust him completely!


----------



## draconis

voivod said:


> so, drac, seeing how this is going, are you more, less or same confident that we are going the right direction toward getting back together?
> 
> i just wanna have the feeling that i am doing the right things and that her intentions seem to be receptive to my adjustments in life.



You want to know you are doing something right? Look at her reaction to you, youy seem by yiour posts that you are a better person, father and husband now than ever. A woman would gush over that alone. But she is afraid that it might go back to the way it was. If I was in her shoes I'd feel the same way.

draconis


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## voivod

Sprite said:


> Have you very honestly asked Beth what she sees in the future as far as the 2 of you go?


no, not really. the counselor thinks that will appear to be "pressure" and she advises against that.




Sprite said:


> Have you been able to let her speak her mind(if she has gotten to that point yet) without making her feel guilty?


she's "dabbling" in speaking her mind right now. funny thing is, i can't imagine me making her feel guilty for speaking her mind. but i know, looking back, that sometimes she would not bring up certain subjects for fear of a negative reaction from me. that sucks, and i can't believe i was ever like that. but i was. shees!





Sprite said:


> Have you been totally honest with her on how YOU feel about her? Do you still tell her you love her...but are ok with it if you dont get a reply back?


yes. funny thing is, when my sister came out to visit us at the end of the summer, beth was telling her a story about the day we met and it turned into telling tales on me. one of those tales morphed into how i am always the one to say "i love you" and beth shows rather than tells. so i have gotten better at not getting a reply back. plus, when she does "show it," i pick up on it better. stuff like her calling my doc requesting a med check because, as she said "i care." or when she says "i wish you wouldn't tell me that. i worry" when i slipped and fell on the ice at work. or texts like "it's slippery outside. drive careful." all that stuff that tells me she cares turns into "i love you's" and that makes me feel good.



Sprite said:


> All I can tell you is to please please please be patient and dont ever give up on her. It takes time and its a rough road, but it is worth it in the end. The relationship you 2 will have will be better than anything you can imagine. But you have to make a promise to yourself to NOT let it get away from you. My biggest fear right now is that my wall is disappearing...that wall is what made us so close right now...if it is gone, what will be left?


i am tryingh to be patient. and i never see myself "giving up" or letting it "get away from me." i can say that our relationship now, other than the lack of outward passion, is better than it ever has been. and the comment you make about the wall going away...i can relate...i think the wall is beth's best friend so far as protecting her own self-worth.





Sprite said:


> 1 year into my situation we were working through things, but not really together. He was dealing with his issues, and I was dealing with mine. 2 years into it and we are FINALLY communicating the way we should have been all a long, and we are now working together to save it. But after 2 years,I still don't know if I can trust him completely!


wow! two years? that's a hell of a long time!


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## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> MT-last night it turned into me slapping her rear. she made it awfully easy to do it, reaching over me to lower the blinds. she knows what my reaction is going to be to that move.


And how was it received?


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## MarkTwain

Sprite said:


> He puts his feelings and wants aside so I can get through this because he knows he was the root cause of this whole mess


Is this in all honesty true? Was it not 50/50? (If you think about it real hard).

Anyway, I salute you, it's great to here how well you are doing. and don't worry about your wall coming down. You can always build a new one if you think it will help 



Sprite said:


> 2 years!!!! That is how long it took my husband to START breaking down my wall.


Honey, I've got to pull you up on that one! You took down your wall, not him. Only you could build it, only you could take it down. You are ascribing to him, power which he does not have.

It reminds me of Aesop's fable about when the Sun and the Wind had a bet to see who could make a man take of his cloak the fastest... The Wind and the Sun - Aesop's Fables The Wind and the Sun

I think your hubby was in the role of the Sun


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> And how was it received?


that's when she said "my butt is fat." i reminded her that, in fact, it is not. it is darned nearly perfect.


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## voivod

draconis said:


> You want to know you are doing something right? Look at her reaction to you, you seem by your posts that you are a better person, father and husband now than ever. A woman would gush over that alone. But she is afraid that it might go back to the way it was. If I was in her shoes I'd feel the same way.
> 
> draconis


if you'd feel the same way, isn't that grudge-holding?


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## Sprite

Yes 2 years is a long time, but, considering it was 15 years of hell/neglect, 2 years isnt really all that much time.

I can understand the counselors thought that asking her what she sees in the furture could seem like pressure, and if I was at the point where you are now, I would probably think the same thing if Dan asked me that. My answer would have been "I don't know" -translated that means I really don't want to talk about it.

If she is just "dabbling" in speaking her mind, that is a very good thing. That means as long as you can handle whatever she tells you in a positive manner, she will gradually keep opening up more and more. Keep in mind tho that not everything she says is going to be something you want to hear. Some things may hurt, but once it is said and she has it off her chest, you can talk it out and work through it. And if she brings up something from the past that you did to upset her, try not to jump at the chance in an attempt to justify your action. Do not make excuses, even tho you think you may have a good one, it's not good enough. This blows my mind every time Dan accepts what he did. I'm not saying to just sit back and let her blame you for everything. I'll give you an example...I brought up the fact that (and this is a little sarcastic, but how I felt) he didn't "let" me take the kids far from home cuz I don't
know how to use my cell phone and call AAA if I break down...his normal response would have been..there is no reason for you to go there...his new response is...I can not believe I did that to you, I only wanted to keep you safe. He told me that if something happened to me or the boys and he wasn't there to "protect us", he would never forgive himself. So he had a good reason, but he went about it wrong. In that conversation he accepted what he did and how he made me feel, but he also had a good reason and felt he had to explain it to me.....which I am glad he did because now I understand where he was coming from. You will need to be able to determine what warrents an acception or an acception with an explaination.

You are in a good place even tho you feel like you are getting nowhere. If her reaction to the slap on the rear was a giggle and a feable attemp to swat your hand away...she did it on purpose...and she enjoyed it. If her reaction was a glare and a stern NO...then she didnt enjoy it and didn't plan it. Maybe she just wanted to see what your reaction would have been. She probably misses those playful moments as much as you do.

Just keep at it voi, she still loves you and you know it. Do you really have to be living in the same house right now to know that? 

You feel closer to her than ever before because your focus in life has changed and you notice the little things more than you ever have. The things you used to take for granted. She feels a closeness with you too, but not the closeness you are expecting. Once she is able to let go and really speak her mind and tell you everything...then she will feel the same closeness you do.

If she does something that you think is "cute" or makes you laugh, let her know that you appreciate it now even tho you took it for granted before, or it may not have seemed to her like you noticed it before.


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## Sprite

MarkTwain said:


> Is this in all honesty true? Was it not 50/50? (If you think about it real hard).
> 
> Anyway, I salute you, it's great to here how well you are doing. and don't worry about your wall coming down. You can always build a new one if you think it will help
> 
> 
> Honey, I've got to pull you up on that one! You took down your wall, not him. Only you could build it, only you could take it down. You are ascribing to him, power which he does not have.
> 
> It reminds me of Aesop's fable about when the Sun and the Wind had a bet to see who could make a man take of his cloak the fastest... The Wind and the Sun - Aesop's Fables The Wind and the Sun
> 
> I think your hubby was in the role of the Sun


You always make me think...geesh!! But YES, in all honesty I can say he was the major cause of this mess. Don't get me wrong, there are things I could have done differently that may have changed the outcome of our relationship, but HE is the one who did the neglecting, manipulating and intimidating. While I allowed it to happen.

I honestly believe that I did not put up the wall nor take it down on my own. If he had been the man he is now and treated me and his boys as well as he does now, that wall would never have been there. 

I like that story, thank you!


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## voivod

Sprite said:


> You are in a good place even tho you feel like you are getting nowhere.


not a "good" place. but better than a "bad place."



Sprite said:


> Just keep at it voi, she still loves you and you know it. Do you really have to be living in the same house right now to know that?


no, not really. but living back together would certainly be nice.


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## Sprite

If she did not still love you or if she did not still have hope for a happily ever after with you...she would NOT be so involved with you. There would be no dinners, no movies, no mention of "our" movie, no telling you she worries about you. If she did not love you, she would have let you go a long time ago. You said it yourself, she shows you not tells you she loves you! 

Do you show her the same thing? sometimes words can only take you so far.


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## voivod

you know, once in counseling she did say "i don't know if you can make good on 16 years of bad road...but..."

what in the world could that mean? i couldn't have been a bad guy for 16 straight years. because then what did all the love talk mean during those times? the cards that said things like "you could read this ten years from now and i'll still feel the same...i love you" or all the hopful statements she made along the way, thing that make a man believe this is forever. or why would she tell my daughter that she "just needs some time" while she says if she took me back her "self-esteem would mean nothing."

i'm just twisting in the wind.


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## draconis

Sprite said:


> If she did not still love you or if she did not still have hope for a happily ever after with you...she would NOT be so involved with you. There would be no dinners, no movies, no mention of "our" movie, no telling you she worries about you. If she did not love you, she would have let you go a long time ago. You said it yourself, she shows you not tells you she loves you!
> 
> Do you show her the same thing? sometimes words can only take you so far.


:iagree:

draconis


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## Guest

Sprite, your story has a lot of similarities to my own. I can not tell you how much I value your insight and perspective. Our stories may be playing out differently but I hear my wife's voice in the comments you have made. It makes me wish I knew everything in your mind right now to piece together what my wife is going thru. When you made that comment "I don't know" that is my wife to a "t". 

Sorry Voi, for a brief hi-jacking. To give you a little chuckle, my heart skipped a beat when I saw in our members section the thread about successful reconciliation got bumped. For a split second I thought you were making an announcement. I was going to be sending you a xmas present to the nicest restaurant in your town.  I guess I'll save that for a day in the near future. 

Oh and Sprite is on the money. Keep doing what your doing and stop being as obsessive as I am. We're driving ourselves nuts.


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## voivod

Jason said:


> Sorry Voi, for a brief hi-jacking. To give you a little chuckle, my heart skipped a beat when I saw in our members section the thread about successful reconciliation got bumped. For a split second I thought you were making an announcement. I was going to be sending you a xmas present to the nicest restaurant in your town.  I guess I'll save that for a day in the near future.


no problem...don't you worry none...i'm gonna be in the success column...how can i fail? she still is giving me the time of day...and keep in mind, i'm game for the restaurant thing...just you wait.




Jason said:


> Oh and Sprite is on the money. Keep doing what your doing and stop being as obsessive as I am. We're driving ourselves nuts.


obsessive is one way to put it. i've been trying to wean off of celebrex (anti-depressant). does it show???? hahaha


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## voivod

y'know what's bothering me...new yrs eve is coming up. we have always for the last 20 years or so spent it together...well, beth has openly stated that 2008 was the worst year of her life. i'm not sure she's gonna wanna kick off 2009 with me. i guess that i understand. but right now that would be ultimate rejection.


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## StrongEnough

Why don't you ask her if she has New Year's Plans? The not knowing is what is bothering you. IF she does, that's ok, you can make plans too, if not, set it up and treat it as a date for the two of you!


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## voivod

Sprite said:


> If she did not still love you or if she did not still have hope for a happily ever after with you...she would NOT be so involved with you. There would be no dinners, no movies, no mention of "our" movie, no telling you she worries about you. If she did not love you, she would have let you go a long time ago. You said it yourself, she shows you not tells you she loves you!


exactly! this is the slap in the face i needed. i keep asking myself "if she doesn't want to be with me, why is she always spending time with me? concerts, dinners, movies, etc. and why has she not filed for a divorce? and she does worry about me, just like she used to. why??? i guess the answer should be obvious.

y'know what is funny to me though? where's the guys posting in response for me to "sack up," grow some testicles and tell her to **** or get off the pot. i might have said that to a guy going through what i am.


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## Guest

Because you love her man. We want to see you succeed not fail. So grow some testi's and go win her heart back!!! lol

Dude, New Years couldn't be a better time to spend time with her. Resolutions, time together, a count down minus booze and still having a blast together couldn't be a better opportunity to spend with her.


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## voivod

don't talk about the heavy relationship stuff! i just got off the phone with beth...talking about christmas presents for the kids...conversation morphed into whats going on at her work...turns out there's a real floozy working at her work...beth said she behaved unprofessionally at their christmas party..flirting with one of the girls' husband's there. beth told me "if she did that to you, i'd kick her a$$." i said "you still like me" & she said "yeah, i do."
heh-heh..not to get too overconfident, but....


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## Guest

Nice Voi, that's some good stuff there. So where's the nicest restaurant in your area?


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## voivod

yeah, and like 4 calls last night asking for advice and/or someone to listen to about work stuff. plus the "i like you" call. wow. i hope were turning a corner. i'm treating it that way.

it was just that touch of jealousy based on "if she woulda said that to you" that made me realize that i was still in her heart. i think i missed my cue a little bit though, as i was taken aback by what she said. it was really nice to have the conversations last night though. like we really were connecting. hope?


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## Guest

heck ya hope! Don't read to much into things or try to over analyze it. Just sit back and enjoy the smell of the roses right now. Be there for her, she is letting you play listener, so listen and hear her. Don't get the tool box out just be there for her emotional needs. You didn't miss a cue, she knows how you feel I would bet. Obviously her daughters are providing a lot of play by play, so don't worry, just let it happen. Man your going to feel so good when it does.

And yes your connecting, that is the most important part of all this. Your filling her love bank by providing all those emotional support deposits. Keep doing it.


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## voivod

it's hard not to read into her words...she thinks before she speaks...she is very smart and knows what she is saying and the effects it has...she made the comment as though "you're MY man and no one is going to talk to you like that in MY presence." she's done similar things before. when i got a rather suggestive get well message from one of my female co-workers after my stroke, she said "i'll just drive down there and have a word with her." she actually saved the get well to show me she meant business. her jealousy has always been cute to me, and never a threat to us. so i not only respect it, i enjoy it.

it has actualy become pretty easy to "just be there" as her emotional support. she's kinda begun making it a habit of giving me opportunities to be her support system with regard to problems at her work as of late.

i think i can appear to be over-analyzing lately, but the opportunity is presenting itself. i am hoping that her heart is showing signs of softening. it seems as though it is.


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## draconis

voivod said:


> don't talk about the heavy relationship stuff! i just got off the phone with beth...talking about christmas presents for the kids...conversation morphed into whats going on at her work...turns out there's a real floozy working at her work...beth said she behaved unprofessionally at their christmas party..flirting with one of the girls' husband's there. beth told me "if she did that to you, i'd kick her a$$." i said "you still like me" & she said "yeah, i do."
> heh-heh..not to get too overconfident, but....


Just goes to show you how much she cares about you and she still thinks of you as her partner.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> Just goes to show you how much she cares about you and she still thinks of you as her partner.
> 
> draconis


exactly! ain't it cool!


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## Guest

That emotional support is huge. As long as your listening and "hearing" then that will fill her bank up. 

As for over-analizing, just don't drive yourself crazy doing it. I think the two of us are a lot alike and we dwell on every tiny little detail and try to figure it out. I actually had my therapist tell me this wek to stop doing it. She said I was starting to try and manipulate her into doing it for me too. She said she wasn't going to give me 20 something different interpretations of what something my wife said meant...WOW!! Holy cow can we let our minds run. So I'm trying to chill out some.


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## voivod

yeah, i do over-analyze. but this stuff, it's real...not contrived in my head. if you knew beth, you'd know the way she chooses words is intentional. this is what i know: she said that phrase to her best friend at work...sorta a rehearsal...looking for a reaction from her...

i can almost hear the conversation...i'm going to talk to her tonight...if i'm correct, she'll give me sort of a replay on the whole thing...we'll see...


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## Guest

Have you ever talked about renewing your vows? Might be a nice icebreaker, but that's your call of course.


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## voivod

Jason said:


> Have you ever talked about renewing your vows? Might be a nice icebreaker, but that's your call of course.


i'd love that, but we're not there yet...she just now is showing that little cute pseudo-jealousy i talked about...why, you think we are there yet???


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## Guest

ROFL, I am NOT planting any ideas in your head. man that would get me in trouble. No I was a little curious. My wife and I have had discussions about if we do get back together we will do this or that stuff. One of them is renewing vows. But I can promise you my wife (which she doesn't consider herself a spouse to anyone right now, ouch) is not a normal person so to speak. We might have discussions about renewing vows one second and the next she is so distant, you'd swear we never met before. 

But it never hurts to dream and I've heard a lot of women in real life and forums make comments about "it's so good now, do I want to risk getting more involved, letting gaurd down, or changing from this close friend bond to relationship bond" stuff to realize that at some point you got to likely take it a step further. I just dont thing that is your scenario. I dont because your daughters are a lightning rod of data. You've posted what mom tells them and that is the best insider trading data you could get. Beth will tell them exactly how she feels. Plus she is giving you more morsels than my wife gives me. I scrounge for crumbs and your getting a buffet of goodies from Beth. Just take your time, chill and enjoy the chase a little. You know, in fact treat it like the chase again. It's almost kinda like trying to date that really hot girl in school and her teasing you a little but not letting you get to first base. Give Beth a little toyful chase and see if she responds more. You can't be plutonic with all that mistletoe around. 

Ok take my keyboard away I'm starting trouble. >: )


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## voivod

Jason said:


> My wife and I have had discussions about if we do get back together we will do this or that stuff. One of them is renewing vows. But I can promise you my wife (which she doesn't consider herself a spouse to anyone right now, ouch) is not a normal person so to speak. We might have discussions about renewing vows one second and the next she is so distant, you'd swear we never met before.


wierd she does that...maybe depression?



Jason said:


> I've heard a lot of women in real life and forums make comments about "it's so good now, do I want to risk getting more involved, letting guard down, or changing from this close friend bond to relationship bond" stuff


yeah, i kinda fear that's where we're at. i had a marriage counselor tell me to rebuild the friendship. the love is there.
renewing the vows, i think, is the wrong thing to ask. maybe someday.


Jason said:


> I just dont thing that is your scenario. I dont because your daughters are a lightning rod of data. You've posted what mom tells them and that is the best insider trading data you could get. Beth will tell them exactly how she feels. Plus she is giving you more morsels than my wife gives me. I scrounge for crumbs and your getting a buffet of goodies from Beth.


she does give me a lot in the way of "chances" doesn't she?


Jason said:


> Just take your time, chill and enjoy the chase a little. You know, in fact treat it like the chase again. It's almost kinda like trying to date that really hot girl in school and her teasing you a little but not letting you get to first base. Give Beth a little toyful chase and see if she responds more.


the difference is, i've been with the hottest girl in school. anything less won't do. the chase is on.


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## Guest

LOL, you made me laugh at that last comment. Give her a good chase 

I do think your right in timing your moves. I think a time will come when you know its right to say or do what is going to take your relationship to the next level. The nice thing is, the chances your getting with her are rebuilding your relationship. That emotional support your providing should help the relationship run its course and bring you both together. You know Beth better than anyone and will know that final outcome. 

As for my situation. Yesterday was so telling. SHe is suffering from a severe monthly cycle that I think may have some form of a health complication. She said it scares her as well. I really fear for her and know that something isn't right there. She sees a specialist on a regular schedule as most women do but nothing has ever been diagnosed. It may be just a very bad thing she has to deal with. I know her hormones are so bad that she becomes hyper-sensitive during this time. What is really scary is that she is becoming increasingly irregular in getting it more frequently. She had one period on 11/31 and now just got it again yesterday 12/17. I believe she is also dealing with severe depression, grief from the loss of her mother, turning 40, inability to conceive, plus a mid life crisis likely from all the previous things mentioned. Unfortunately, to this point she wont get help from a therapist and pinned the blame on me as the contributing factor of our issues. I don't mind taking responsibility but this is bigger than just her and I. 

Well no more thread hi-jacking. Keep doing the small things for Beth, their building up for the two of you. We need a success story!!


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## voivod

Jason said:


> I do think your right in timing your moves. I think a time will come when you know its right to say or do what is going to take your relationship to the next level. The nice thing is, the chances your getting with her are rebuilding your relationship. That emotional support your providing should help the relationship run its course and bring you both together. You know Beth better than anyone and will know that final outcome.


sometimes it's like i don't know her. use to be i could win her over with a kind word and a smile...it's like those days are past. i used to be able to bs her back into my heart...i don't even try that any more...everything i do is sincere, and she doesn't always bite. there are days when i feel doomed and other days where i feel sky high.


Jason said:


> As for my situation. Yesterday was so telling. SHe is suffering from a severe monthly cycle that I think may have some form of a health complication. She said it scares her as well. I really fear for her and know that something isn't right there. She sees a specialist on a regular schedule as most women do but nothing has ever been diagnosed. It may be just a very bad thing she has to deal with. I know her hormones are so bad that she becomes hyper-sensitive during this time. What is really scary is that she is becoming increasingly irregular in getting it more frequently. She had one period on 11/31 and now just got it again yesterday 12/17. I believe she is also dealing with severe depression, grief from the loss of her mother, turning 40, inability to conceive, plus a mid life crisis likely from all the previous things mentioned. Unfortunately, to this point she wont get help from a therapist and pinned the blame on me as the contributing factor of our issues. I don't mind taking responsibility but this is bigger than just her and I.


funny you bring up the monthly cycle. i tracked it for years. beth has always had a kooky cycle, she had endometriosis a few years back and finally got on nuvaring to control her periods but it didn't do much for what i considered mood swings. her going batcrap on me coincided with her period. i've always thought that was something to do with her unhappiness through life. that and a horrible upbringing, but don't get me started. i'm amazed at the things she forgives her mom for and has been unable to forgive me.


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## Guest

My wife had this procedure done as well. During a 4 month span a year and half ago trying to get pregnant. That period of time was very hard on her. Having a doc tell her she likely will never be able to conceive, She doesn't ovulate enough eggs (best month was 2), and would have to do doner eggs (my thick skull didn't agree with that option because I was to dense to hear the doc say that was the only REAL option), ended up putting her thru a ringer emotionally. Part of what got us here today.

Sorry I keep hi-jacking your thread. Does Beth have any idea your so popular on this forum? I always wonder what our significant others would think if they saw us pour our souls out in a thread like this.


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## voivod

see, this is what i mean about over-reacting or over-analyzing...i just got off the phone earlier with her, she said she had some "errands to run." i asked her if i could help her. she said "nah."

so just got off the phone again. i asked her what errands she had to run. she said "just some stuff." 

i leap to horrible conclusions...what errands could be so important that she won't tell me? is she going to an attorney? why do i do this to myself?


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## Sprite

YA DOPE.......she is probably christmas shopping and doesn't want you to know!!!!!!

The fact that she said she likes you....thats a big one...

And don't go thinking your girls are giving you any information Beth doesn't want you to have. She tells the girls things because she KNOWS it will get back to you. If there was something she wanted to keep to herself, she would never mention it to anyone..especially the kids.

As far as new years goes....try something completely new this year....start a new tradition. Tell her you know this was the worst year ever, but you want to be there with her to ring in the new best year ever.


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## voivod

Sprite said:


> YA DOPE.......she is probably christmas shopping and doesn't want you to know!!!!!!


yeah, there are lots of answers, and none of them are doom and gloom...



Sprite said:


> The fact that she said she likes you....thats a big one...


yeah, she's said various versions of that in the past...likes, cares about...she even told my 11 yr old "of course i still love daddy...."



Sprite said:


> And don't go thinking your girls are giving you any information Beth doesn't want you to have. She tells the girls things because she KNOWS it will get back to you. If there was something she wanted to keep to herself, she would never mention it to anyone..especially the kids.


she told 'em one time "i'd never change my last name (back to maiden)...it's MY name too..."

it sure seems like she has some "care" deep down in there...it's almost like if she lets it get to close to the surface, it scares her...


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## Guest

Do either of you still say I love you?


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## voivod

Jason said:


> Do either of you still say I love you?


not forced. again, something the counselor said..."you'll know she loves you when..." don't say it to her, it'll make her feel "manipulated into returning the favor."

and y'know jason, we had a long conversation about this once in late july or so, when she said "you know i love you when i do (blank) you don't have to worry about me loving you. i prefer to SHOW it." so rather than trying to make her say it, i go along with the feeling, and she does show me from time to time. would i like to hear the words? heck yeah, but that will come, said the counselor, when her full commitment to the relationship returns.

on another note. yesterday was the 21st anniversary of our first "date." we always commemorate it somehow, usually a little cutesy mention of it and a token. beth called me last night as a reminder. i came by with a nice vase of roses. she dug that.


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## Guest

Kick butt!! Good for you VOi. It's nice hearing that when my own day is riddled with issues. Something on a positive note is nice to hear for someone. I hope you have a wonderful Xmas with your family man! I think my holiday is going to be spent comepletely alone.


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## voivod

Jason said:


> Kick butt!! Good for you VOi. It's nice hearing that when my own day is riddled with issues. Something on a positive note is nice to hear for someone. I hope you have a wonderful Xmas with your family man! I think my holiday is going to be spent comepletely alone.


yeah, we'll spend saturday night together watching "it's a wonderful life," tuesday we'll do some kids stuff and probably some shopping, and christmas morning we'll be together.

still sticking in my head is her reaction to what she said about that flirty girl at work, how she'd "kick her butt if she did that to you." how i'd love for that to happen. she can't help but admit that she still has feelings if that did happen. kinda makes me wanna take the tw jackson road and date someone else and put it in her face a little to stir up the jealousy. but that's not me, it's not us.

i am very impressed with the way she has conducted herself all through this ordeal. the softening and breaking down of the walls have been very slow and predictable. there have been no real surprises. i think back throught the summer and fall and we've really had fun together. the only torturous part has been not sleeping with her at night. y'know skinman talks about "the dreams" that he has and how terrible they are. i've only had dreams of "rescuing" beth and one last night of our first kiss. i always feel good when i awake from a dream that she was in.

anyway, the flowers thursday night were a hit. i know she's going to talk about them with her friend at work. this is good because her friend, i think, likes me. she thinks i'm okay.

why do you suppose this still continues?


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## skinman

voivod said:


> I think back throught the summer and fall and we've really had fun together. the only torturous part has been not sleeping with her at night. y'know skinman talks about "the dreams" that he has and how terrible they are. i've only had dreams of "rescuing" beth and one last night of our first kiss. i always feel good when i awake from a dream that she was in.


Voivod,

great to hear that things are moving along well my friend... You know I am praying for you and Beth to get back on track and work things out.......

I sure wish I had the Dreams that you have my friend  ... Sadly mine have all been nightmares and there getting worse....... 

keeping you in my thoughts !!
Skin..


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## voivod

skinman said:


> Voivod,
> 
> great to hear that things are moving along well my friend... You know I am praying for you and Beth to get back on track and work things out.......
> 
> I sure wish I had the Dreams that you have my friend  ... Sadly mine have all been nightmares and there getting worse.......
> 
> keeping you in my thoughts !!
> Skin..


skin...
Question: do you see things as "moving along well???" i am so confused.

the dreams i have had (just a few) have been so settling. no nightmares. except for a haunted house where i "rescued" her from some dangerous situation.

and question: i just got off the phone with her...she said "i have plans tonight and wanted to know about you watching the kids." why the hell does she tell me this when she knows it's gonna eat me alive? am i not allowed to ask where she's going or who she's going with?

whew...she just called back. she's gonna be "at amanda's from 6 til 9." amanda is a girl she works with and they have these candle parties. no worries. i think beth called me back to reassure me that it wasn't any big deal. thank God for her doing that. i'd go insane worrying. i think this is a setting where there might be some light conversation. i hope the flowers come up, give everyone a chance to say how "sweet" i am for remembering the anniversary of our first "date."

i often ask myself..."if we do get back together, how will i handle this situation?" i CANNOT be the jealous, controlling guy from before if she wants to go have fun. i have to KNOW that she's not doing anything wrong and i CANNOT question where she is going. i must trust. so...

why on earth do i do this to myself??? put myself through all this mental turmoil???


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## voivod

it turns out the candle party was no big deal. they went over to a lady friends who is joining the nat'l guard. i know nothing bad is going on, but i am so missing the closeness that we once had. she purposefully keeps me on pins and needles, all the while sorta laying claim to me with her comments about the flirty girl at work ("if she did that to you, i'd kick her butt") and saying NOT to watch OUR movie (it's a wonderful life..."you bought it for ME"). why would she hint around like that yet not give me a chance to be together with her?

if it seems like i'm desparate, i guess i am. i don't know what my next move should be. i don't want to lose her or my family, and the holidays are so important to that in my mind. i think i just need some "cut to the chase advice."


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## voivod

okay, so we watched OUR movie tonight...although i knew the invite was coming, she was so cute with it...texted me..."what time you off work?"...she knows my schedule...she's just playing so coyly...i told her "7pm...why?...she texts back so innocently "movie???"...i texted her "our movie?"...she texts "yeh"...
so i brought hot chocolate and we watched "it's a wonderful life" we sang "buffalo gals wontcha come out tonight"...so cute, she smiled...and i got so close to kissing her i couldn't stand myself..the day is coming...this has really done us some good i think...

i guess i'm not really looking for advice now, more some encouragement...for those who have followed my story, thank you for your input...for those that are just now discovering it...sorry for the drama...i just want to know this...based on what i'm saying, as the way things are going...does this seem like a "savable" situation? she has made every "be nice" gesture, we've been very friendly, she invites me to things qall the time. i can't believe she would want me out of her life if she acts this way. are we on the rigt track? am i on the right track? is there something i can do better? thank you.


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## MarkTwain

voivod-

I wish I had been prescient enough to have written on page one of this thread, "this ones going to run and run" 

But it's page 49 now... and counting.

In my opinion, you are not only doing the right thing, but you're doing it in the optimum way. You're being so cautious, that it's actually teasing her! She must have been thinking during the movie or afterwards: is he going to kiss me? You two are two peas in a pod.

At some point, _one_ of you _will_ cut to the chase, but I'm not laying any bets on who that will be.


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> voivod-
> 
> I wish I had been prescient enough to have written on page one of this thread, "this ones going to run and run"
> 
> But it's page 49 now... and counting.
> 
> In my opinion, you are not only doing the right thing, but you're doing it in the optimum way. You're being so cautious, that it's actually teasing her! She must have been thinking during the movie or afterwards: is he going to kiss me? You two are two peas in a pod.
> 
> At some point, _one_ of you _will_ cut to the chase, but I'm not laying any bets on who that will be.


so MT, then what???

keep playing it as i have been? pull the trigger? how/when? i've never been so apprehensive with a female in my life! we're watching anothe movie tonight and i suspect dinner too. she asked me to bring parmesan cheese. i don't know. the "first" time for us, i forced the issue...laid a big fat movie kiss on her against the wall of my house at the time. she's recounted that moment several times since...told me how it "melted her."


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## voivod

final note tonight: we have a phrase we use in the car biz...if it looks like were getting close to a deal with a customer against the odds we say "i think i'm winning." well, tonight makes me believe i'm winning. i'm a little tired right now, so i'm gonna go to bed, but i'll update tomorrow...i think i'm winning...


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## Guest

Voi, both of you are winning. She is slowly getting the man she wanted and your getting your wife back. Wish all of us luck!!

My wife talked about coming home again today and starting out fresh with the new year.


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## voivod

Jason said:


> Voi, both of you are winning. She is slowly getting the man she wanted and your getting your wife back. Wish all of us luck!!
> 
> My wife talked about coming home again today and starting out fresh with the new year.


dude...that's HUGE!!! good luck...my prayers are with you...


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## MarkTwain

Jason said:


> My wife talked about coming home again today and starting out fresh with the new year.


Nice


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## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> so MT, then what???
> 
> keep playing it as i have been? pull the trigger? how/when? i've never been so apprehensive with a female in my life! we're watching anothe movie tonight and i suspect dinner too. she asked me to bring parmesan cheese. i don't know. the "first" time for us, i forced the issue...laid a big fat movie kiss on her against the wall of my house at the time. she's recounted that moment several times since...told me how it "melted her."


My old boss had a wife who used to say "them that fetches carries".

Your daughter brings you news from Beth, and no doubt she bends Beth's ear with your desire to get back together. So if that is the case... she knows what you want. She is hardly pushing you away. She is actually inviting you round. An alien looking down from a flying saucer might say you appear to be teasing each other - one of you is bound to break down and surrender in the end. The hormones must be at full tilt by now 

Your adventure is more dragged out than Soap  "Confused? You won't be" - remember that from the 70s?


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## Sprite

Voi, you are in a very "savable" situation. You are doing everything right and I do not think there is any more that you can do. Keep doing what you are doing. Keep giving her the space she needs. Even tho you ARE doing everything right, she still has some reservations. She will for a while still....just keep that in mind. 16 years can not be fixed in a matter of months!

By her telling you that first kiss melted her...well, my opinion is that is your clue! If she didn't want you to do that again, she never would have said anything about it. BUT.....when you do kiss her again this time(and make sure if it is in your power to put her against a wall again...do it since she already told you it melted her)..do it softly..no tongue...make her come the rest of the way. You will know if she wants to be a willing participant in that kiss too, and if she feels that way make sure it is ONLY a kiss and nothing more. 

A woman's mentality is that the man always wants more....a kiss will lead to touching...a backrub leads to other things...know what I mean? She might not be ready for more, but the fact that she is talking about your first kiss tells me she wants to kiss you again. Just take is slowly....one kiss at a time...one hug at a time. This will be a test of YOUR self control now. 

Just let her know that you will take it at HER pace. You don't want to do anything that will make her pull herself away from you again. But flirt with her, tell her little things that you love about her...especially things that she may not like about herself. I have a great story for that one...my husband kind of "tricked" me ya see..it really is sweet tho. He has this big pickup truck and I am short so I have a hard time getting into it..well....he cut the step off the side..so now I need(ok, i can actually get into it by myself if I HAD to...) help getting in it. He never used to open the door for me..now he does all the time. At first he told me..the step was all rusty and I didn't want you getting hurt...then he told me it was snowy and slippery outside...he didn't want me falling...I found out a couple weeks ago that he was just using those as excuses to grab my butt(which I hate..my butt, not him grabbing it) any chance he could! So, now we make a game out of it, and if he doesn't come to open my door and help me..I stand there and wait for him til he does!

I was so happy to read your thread form the last time I was on because it really sounds like she is softening up and it is very positive!!! Just remember that if you do kiss her and she is receptive to it..that doesn't mean eveything is fixed and back to normal. It is just a step in the right direction down the road of total reconsiliation. You will still need to work at this...just be yourself and be patient. Be the man she fell in love with in the first place. 

I don't know if I will have time to check on you before Christmas, so if I don't get back....Merry Christmas to everyone! I sincerely wish you the best of luck Voi, and you and Beth and your whole family are in my prayers!


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## voivod

recapping last night...i was right about dinner...she had me dished up by the time i got there...spaghetti...one of my favorites..."i'll be home for christmas" was the movie...cheesy, i know...she asked me to pick up "a christmas carole" and "miracle on 34th street" for tonight...this is stupid...if she doesn't want me around why all the holiday invites? i can't pull the trigger just yet but i'm so close...if i get an opening at all im gonna try...would i be blowing it by doing that now?


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> She is hardly pushing you away. She is actually inviting you round. An alien looking down from a flying saucer might say you appear to be teasing each other - one of you is bound to break down and surrender in the end. The hormones must be at full tilt by now
> 
> Your adventure is more dragged out than Soap  "Confused? You won't be" - remember that from the 70s?


that's what i keep thinking, but my fragile male ego is taking quite a beating. i just so want to sleep in the same bed again, or live in the same house. when???

also MT, should i keep playing "dumb"???


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## Guest

Voi you got to make that call, we cant. It's something you have to do and take the initiative to do it.


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## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> also MT, should i keep playing "dumb"???


As Jason said, you're the boss. You have had so much love and support here, but it just does not feel right to make any more suggestions at this point. It has to come from you.

We're all on the edge of our seats...


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> As Jason said, you're the boss. You have had so much love and support here, but it just does not feel right to make any more suggestions at this point. It has to come from you.
> 
> We're all on the edge of our seats...


yeah, i understand MT...i just wanna make sure i haven't missed something here...

i think i'm gonna ride this out...and keep posting as things happen...


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> We're all on the edge of our seats...


unfortunately...so am i...i feel like an observer...rather than a participant...i keep thinking "when is it going to be obvious???"...when is it gonna make sense to ask the "get back together question?" because it's not terribly obvious to me now...last night and then again this morning beth asked me what i wanted for breakfast christmas morning...gosh, i don't care...as long as i can just have it with you...daughter asked her last night about christmas eve at grandma's (mol) and beth said "no"...she's gonna spend it with me and the kids...this is a big deal to me as grandma hijacks all the holidays and it's always been a huge obligation to the kids to do it at grandma's house...

she just came by to pick up the wii for the kids to play tonight...she says "i'll call you later" which is cool because she is initiating contact with me so often anymore...i just wonder..."when is the "right" time? will it be obvious?

one thing that keeps ringing in my head was a statement she made back in may...i had spent some money without telling her, and she said "what, did you spend it on drugs, or (something) or you GIRLFRIEND?"...i have not used drugs for years, not since my oldest was born...and i sure as hell didn't have a girlfriend!!!! i've since told her that she did not have to be afraid of the answer if she questioned me about someone else. could she still be thinking i've had a girlfriend? and is holding resentment about this imaginary person?

then she called back and asked me how to handle the kids and a discipline problem...i told her she was doing fine with it, but she seemed so frustrated...i'd have gone over and done something about it, but i was on my way to work. can it be possible that the pressure of the holidays has her a little "needy?" i want to help, i want to be her man in those circumstances...

told me "be here by 8"...that was it, but she's kinda bossy in that statement. and i'm ok with it!


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## voivod

Sprite said:


> Voi, you are in a very "savable" situation. You are doing everything right and I do not think there is any more that you can do. Keep doing what you are doing. Keep giving her the space she needs. Even tho you ARE doing everything right, she still has some reservations. She will for a while still....just keep that in mind. 16 years can not be fixed in a matter of months!


so you're telling me just keep on keepin' on?


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## Guest

I have a little devious idea. Got any mistle toe?


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## voivod

Jason said:


> I have a little devious idea. Got any mistle toe?


yes, i'm sure. if i pull that stunt i'm liable to get shot down! what you got in mind?


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## voivod

this morning, we were all together, the kids opened presents, me and beth opened ours. i got her a diamond heart necklace and earrings, a shirt and a gift certificate to a clothing store. she got me some pajamas, a wallet, some shirts, and a gift certificate. i think on our first christmas she also bought me pajamas and a wallet.

then we had breakfast and watched a movie, and we fell asleep. then she invited me to her moms house for dinner (?). it was not the romantic-type holiday that i had hoped for, but we were together, and she seemed happy. we're off to mother in laws house now. i don't really know how appropriate that is, but i certainly was not going to decline beth's invitation.


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## draconis

Sorry I have been awayfor some time, I guess I need to catch up to the forums. A lot has happened in my life and if you think the ice storm was something to me and mine, it was the tip of the iceburg that you can call the titanic (maybe later). Love is about feeling connected and the strongest love isn't the person you want to be with but being with the person you can't be without. Through all the years, and all these stormy seas, Beth has stood by you. She has needs and wants. Trust needs to be rebuilt and that will take time.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> Through all the years, and all these stormy seas, Beth has stood by you. She has needs and wants. Trust needs to be rebuilt and that will take time.
> 
> draconis


drac...
sorry to hear that the ice storm was a little bit of your burden this holiday season. i hope you weathered all with strength. lets us know what happened, we care. you know that.

you're right, beth has stood by me. i wish i had room here to tell you all the strength she has shown through our trials and tribulations. she was the reason my radio career flourished how it did (my timeline of success and my timeline with her coincide. she was the star of my career, truthfully). she was also the reason my sales career flourished. i could tell you stories of going off on dream vacations that were her doing. she is a fabulous mother. i NEVER had to worry about what was going on with my family while i put in endless hours at the car lot.

we went to my crazy mother in law's house for dinner tonight after opening gifts with the kids at beth's. i was well received over there. my father in law is truly a friend. my mother in law was a queen tonight. as i was leaving, she gave a card with the letter that she writes to everyone at christmas telling the year in review. in it she wrote of my stroke and my recovery due to my "loving WIFE and family" and their efforts. she could have just used beth's name and not called her my wife if she wanted to make a distinction. i think she still counts me among them. that is so big, as family is very important to them.

after dinner at the in-laws, beth invited me back in for another movie. we ended the night at about 11:30pm after i listened to stories of beth growing up. i really felt close. wanted to slip a quick kiss, but didn't want to take advantage of the holiday or use it as an excuse. but i'll get there. i am falling in love with her again. i really am.


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## StrongEnough

voivod said:


> drac...
> sorry to hear that the ice storm was a little bit of your burden this holiday season. i hope you weathered all with strength. lets us know what happened, we care. you know that.
> 
> you're right, beth has stood by me. i wish i had room here to tell you all the strength she has shown through our trials and tribulations. she was the reason my radio career flourished how it did (my timeline of success and my timeline with her coincide. she was the star of my career, truthfully). she was also the reason my sales career flourished. i could tell you stories of going off on dream vacations that were her doing. she is a fabulous mother. i NEVER had to worry about what was going on with my family while i put in endless hours at the car lot.
> 
> we went to my crazy mother in law's house for dinner tonight after opening gifts with the kids at beth's. i was well received over there. my father in law is truly a friend. my mother in law was a queen tonight. as i was leaving, she gave a card with the letter that she writes to everyone at christmas telling the year in review. in it she wrote of my stroke and my recovery due to my "loving WIFE and family" and their efforts. she could have just used beth's name and not called her my wife if she wanted to make a distinction. i think she still counts me among them. that is so big, as family is very important to them.
> 
> after dinner at the in-laws, beth invited me back in for another movie. we ended the night at about 11:30pm after i listened to stories of beth growing up. i really felt close. wanted to slip a quick kiss, but didn't want to take advantage of the holiday or use it as an excuse. but i'll get there. i am falling in love with her again. i really am.


Great to hear! I am so glad that things went well! It is also very sweet to hear that you are falling in love with her again. Did you guys make New's Years plans?


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## voivod

StrongEnough said:


> Great to hear! I am so glad that things went well! It is also very sweet to hear that you are falling in love with her again. Did you guys make New's Years plans?


yes, it sounds like she's gonna spend new yrs eve with me and the kids.

heres the question i have...last night on the way back to beths house, she made a comment about grandma offering more "stuff" than she ever has...i asked her what she attributed that to...she said "well, i think she always thought we could handle it married, but now that im single she doesn't want the kids to do without."

now, why would she say "single." we're still married, maybe not in her mind? it really did sting for awhile.


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## draconis

Did you ask her that? It might be a time for that communication to kick in and ask her where you are at, and where she feels she is at.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> Did you ask her that? It might be a time for that communication to kick in and ask her where you are at, and where she feels she is at.
> 
> draconis


yeah, she said she has been a "single parent" since i had the stroke...living with one income, trying to make ends meet...it was just sad to hear...it just seems like any time this stuff comes up, i'm reminded about not trying to sound manipulative or pressuring, etc...

i was told to work on the friendship and try not to force the relationship, that will come because as my counselor says "using only the evidence, she love you...she needs to see the friendship re-grow..."


----------



## StrongEnough

draconis said:


> Did you ask her that? It might be a time for that communication to kick in and ask her where you are at, and where she feels she is at.
> 
> draconis


:iagree: I don't think it will hurt to ask her how she is feeling and where she is at with everything.


----------



## voivod

StrongEnough said:


> :iagree: I don't think it will hurt to ask her how she is feeling and where she is at with everything.


is it too much to say:

things are going so well, i'm scared to upset the apple cart. i think i have a chance, but it's only that, a chance. i don't want to push the wrong buttons. i guess i don't want to lose what i have now. sound silly?


----------



## StrongEnough

voivod said:


> is it too much to say:
> 
> things are going so well, i'm scared to upset the apple cart. i think i have a chance, but it's only that, a chance. i don't want to push the wrong buttons. i guess i don't want to lose what i have now. sound silly?


No that does not sound silly. It is how you truly feel right? Who knows, she might be waiting for you to say something or make the first move too. I think it is great that you guys are spending New Year's together!


----------



## voivod

StrongEnough said:


> No that does not sound silly. It is how you truly feel right? Who knows, she might be waiting for you to say something or make the first move too. I think it is great that you guys are spending New Year's together!


my counselor today said stay with the status quo...that beth is making decisions on her own, probably for the right reasons...the mother in law thing...probably good...she and i (me & mol) talked real good during my visit...she thinks beth is trying to find redeeming qualities in our (me & mol) relationship...putting trust in someone else's instinct... and coming in to watch the movie afterward means she didn't raise the "wall" after bringing it down...all good...so she (counselor) thought out loud "keep making changes in yourself and working on yourself, she's noticing, and that's the best you can hope for."

she's struggling with her heart right now...the evidence says (counselor says) that beth still loves me...and that might be hard for her to face or admit after she feels she's been betrayed. counselor asked again today if i had been unfaithful...NO!!!!! she said beth is acting like a woman who has been cheated on...and she's gotta get over that hump herself...
got a lot of input and info today...she also said my moods are so affected because things go so well, then the result is the situation doesn't heal fast enough for what seems like positive moves...

so i guess status quo is it for now...God please make this heal as soon as possible...i'm having a hard time waiting...ladies, if you've been in a common situation, how did your man get back right with you???


----------



## draconis

V everyone is different as is every situation and person involved. She might need longer and might be looking for different things. Being the best you can be is all anyone can ask of you. Feel good you survived the post holidays. Most bomb shells are dropped right after christmas with the family (if kids are involved). I don't thinl it will happen to you. Beth is in love with you and doesn't want to let that go.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> Beth is in love with you and doesn't want to let that go.
> 
> draconis


i believe that...time keeps rolling on...she said ok to a movie tonight...i just talked to her...everything seems ok...trust me, the holidays were emotional for me...never got quite so broken up over a new pajamas...she said not to put down the gift i got for her...a diamond heart necklace with a tiny skinny chain...i hate the chain, too fragile...she said "don't put down the gift you got me....makes me think she likes it.


----------



## voivod

i am convinced now, after a long discussion with my counselor today and a wonderful evening with beth, that she loves me. maybe she feels that i am toxic. i hate clinical/psychobabble terms. i must find a way to have her learn i am no longer "toxic." maybe i need some more development. no offense meant to beth, but i don't think she has the knowledge necessary to 
recognize "toxicity," except how it affects her. i still am not fully recovered from some of the control issues that plagued our relationship during my alcohol abuse, but being sober i at least recognize them. my attempts to alter HER thinking rather than altering MY behavior is slowing down our reconciliation.

we watched some old episodes of "House" on dvd tonight. she made me watch one that she said "made me cry the first time i saw it." it was about a woman who knew her first husband (the lead character on the show) was the "right" man for her, but she had a hard time staying with him. i know she wanted me to take a lesson away from it. i did.

but the grand scheme of things is that she was letting me know how she felt about me. i'm clear about that and no longer am i going to over-worry that. now, my job is to clear the "toxicity" from my being. guys, control and jealousy go hand in hand. watch them, they are flammable to a healthy relationship. it took me damned nearly losing mine to learn this. now, i feel my second chance begins.


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod-

I'm still noticing this part of your signature:

"honoring wife daily with AA"

Why do you still think that way? Is the AA for you or Beth?


----------



## voivod

mommy22 said:


> I'll try to heed my own advice on this one as well, but don't over-analyze. Beth wants to know that she can be who she is with you and feel comfortable with it. She doesn't want to worry about making mistakes that will upset you. Just relax and trust that no relationship will ever be perfect and that you have the strength to work through the ups and downs.
> 
> You're on the last leg of the race. Keep going!


i want her to feel she can be herself. that's (i think) one of her biggest hitches with me, that she can't be herself.

i left out a cute story on purpose. while at mil house, beth told a story of how, when she was chasing me, she walked into a bar to find me. cops came in and gave her a ticket (underage in a bar). anyway, that cop kept track of her for a year "to make sure" she was being good. kinda flirty. beth said "it was totally innocent." when she told me about this, she said "i never told you because you'd have gotten mad." i said, "don't you think my jealousy of the cop would have been cute?" she said "no, you were always mad back then."

i responded "no, i wasn't maaaa..." and then i remembered, i was too an angry person. that didn't allow her to be herself.

anyway, we're watching another movie tonight. amazing how much time she's giving me. huh?


----------



## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> voivod-
> 
> I'm still noticing this part of your signature:
> 
> "honoring wife daily with AA"
> 
> Why do you still think that way? Is the AA for you or Beth?


AA's for me. it's like when a team dedicates a game to a fallen teammate...i dedicate my sobriety to beth and the kids.


----------



## voivod

spent last night watching movies and having dinner at beth's. we watched "miracle" and "office space" and beth talked to me about my stroke rehab. she used herb brooks (usa hockey coach for the "miracle" gold medal over the russians in 1980) and his inspirational techniques to motivate me during my "comeback." it made me cry, but i hid it just enough. my kids also helped her during that period and it was great to acknowledge their efforts. anyway, in the span of about 5 minutes yesterday it was clear to me. she's allowing me an opportunity, isn't she? when i mention getting together to do things, she almost immediately responds "yes." i am not going to blow this! she really cares, doesn't she!

i found a bunch of cards from beth this morning while putting away christmas stuff...anniversary cards that said in her writing "can you believe, 10 years, it seems like last week.. i LOVE you" and stuff like that. i cried out loud by myself, wishing i could bring that feeling back.

on the way out last night i stroked her shoulder lovingly and she did nothing to push me away. please let this be it!


----------



## voivod

mommy22 said:


> You're on the last leg of the race. Keep going!


mommy 22...

or anyone else that's been through the crap...in your opinion, what would be the potential harm in asking to get back together now?

my biggest fear is making her feel manipulated or pressured. but i think she's seeing light at the end of the tunnel.


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod-

In as much as you've asked about 20 times...

What follows is my opinion, but remember, *I am not you.*

I don't believe that asking her to move back in is the right thing to do at this point. I believe that you should continue with the flirting, and attempts to foster intimacy, until you reach the point where you can't keep your hands off each other, and she is suggesting you stay the night because it's late. when you have woken up in her bed a few times, then... that's when I would pop the question.

Let me explain:
Even now, she clearly wants space from you of some sort. Not as much as before it's true, but the wall is still there - some of it is dismantled, and other bits now have windows fitted.

Supposing you got your way... she moves back in to the house. But she still has her boundaries up, so it's going to translate to either separate bedrooms or, (even worse in my opinion) sharing a bed, but no sex allowed.

Now, knowing myself as I do, I can tell you, I do not have the self mastery to sleep next to a woman that does not want sex with me, and still seem cheerful. I would be unable to sleep. So for my own health, as well as to stop her experiencing my frustration, I would have to sleep on the couch.

So in my opinion, whereas now, you have a situation that works, you would be rushing headlong into a situation that will be a strain. You will be fawning all over her, trying to get her to let her guard down.

So be careful what you wish for.

Get her physically desiring you, and it may be that everything else will follow.

Now, I'm going to go out on a limb here. I am wondering is you are dancing to her tune just a little bit too much. Rember when you cut down on the texting and calling her, what an improvement it made?

Maybe it's time to take it to the next level. I know it's been the holidays, but she has been inviting you over a lot, and you always accept. Like a love-struck puppy. 

But that's only sexy up to a point. You are too available. What about experimenting with the odd gracious refusal? not the stuff involving the kids, but the "US" time. I don't know how it would play, but it's got to be genuine.

You probably think it can't be genuine because you want to see her as much as possible. But if you pause for 5 minutes every time she invites you, you may be surprised to find that occasionally, you would rather be by yourself or with others. It might be "Gee honey, I'd love too, but I really need to get up early for work tomorrow - we have an early morning sales meeting". Never ever lie - you might be found out! Or it could be, "I have a pile of jobs building up round the house". Or you might start a course at night school. Don't let her be your only outlet for social interaction.

If none of this feels right for you, ditch it. But I believe that when people want space, you should give them slightly more than they ask for; that way they *feel* the space. If they feel too much space, they might be inclined to ask for less space.


----------



## voivod

mt...
after new years eve...but it's gonna be hard...you're right, i am a love struck fool right now...i don't have the strength to say no, graciously bow out...because i DO want to be with her all the time...i love her too much right now, don't i? at least to complete this mission...and i don't want to fail...


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> mt...
> 
> i DO want to be with her all the time...i love her too much right now, don't i? at least to complete this mission...and i don't want to fail...


voivod-

As a salesman, you should know that sometimes less is more 

But what about my initial theory - leaving the question of the living arrangements to after the intimacy has recovered, does that seem sound or not?


----------



## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> voivod-
> 
> But what about my initial theory - leaving the question of the living arrangements to after the intimacy has recovered, does that seem sound or not?


recover the intimacy, then ask about living together? yeah, i think good plan...intimacy is gonna be tough to recover though. i think she feels safe NOT getting that close.

mark twain...fyi-i gently bowed out of a lunch date today. that's tough buddy...especially when she said "please." is there a way to tell if she still loves me? that might make it easier to decline her invitations once in awhile.


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> mark twain...fyi-i gently bowed out of a lunch date today. that's tough buddy...especially when she said "please." is there a way to tell if she still loves me? that might make it easier to decline her invitations once in awhile.


Wow, you act fast. What excuse did you give? And how did she take it.

Of course she loves you. All her language points to her living with you in that house one day.

As you know from economics, scarcity equals more value. Gold is hard to come by, but coal is everywhere. Don't overplay the declining game... just enough to let her know she can't just dial V for Voivod. The thing to do is to assess her reaction over time, not in one day. When she next sees you, see if she tries harder to get closer, or if she is more distant. But you have to asses this over several visits, because people have lots going on day to day, and PMT does not help. It's probably best not to decline any more for a week or two. You'll get the hang of it.

If you want to be really smart, you need to keep track of her periods. Somewhere between day 9 and day 15 after the start of her last period should be her peak fertility time*. Women also get more horny then. They can also get a bit crabby at that time if they are sexually frustrated - a lot of hormones are swirling around - run for the hills 


*This is only on average, some women may be outside of this range.


----------



## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> Wow, you act fast. What excuse did you give? And how did she take it.
> 
> Of course she loves you. All her language points to her living with you in that house one day.
> 
> As you know from economics, scarcity equals more value. Gold is hard to come by, but coal is everywhere. Don't overplay the declining game... just enough to let her know she can't just dial V for Voivod. The thing to do is to assess her reaction over time, not in one day. When she next sees you, see if she tries harder to get closer, or if she is more distant. But you have to asses this over several visits, because people have lots going on day to day, and PMT does not help. It's probably best not to decline any more for a week or two. You'll get the hang of it.
> 
> If you want to be really smart, you need to keep track of her periods. Somewhere between day 8 and day 15 after the start of her last period should be her peak fertility time. Women get more horny then - but watch out for contraception! They can also get a bit crabby at that time if they are sexually frustrated - a lot of hormones are swirling around - run for the hills


declined by saying (text) "busy" but that was a lie. she took it fine. by the same token, she asked me to stop by the store for her yesterday, and i did it, no problem. i'm a pushover.

i have found that she does respond to me making it a little harder to "get ahold of me." but i hate that so bad...because i WANT to be with her.

funny you should mention the periods. i have tracked them for years because i thought her *****iness was much too predictable. i was right about that. she now uses nuvaring (mild contraceptive) as has been for a couple of years to control her period as she was terribly irregular. it works, so she stuck with it. i've found that she can be horny most of the time...and man, if i could turn back the clock...anyway...i just want to believe she loves me still so i can pull this off.

question mark twain...what "points" to us living together again? and how do i tell if she loves me? if she did, wouldn't we live together again?


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> question mark twain...what "points" to us living together again? and how do i tell if she loves me? if she did, wouldn't we live together again?


Read your own posts. She wants you back, but she has resistance. 

Tell me about your depression and the medication, how long has that been going on, and is it temporary or forever?


----------



## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> Read your own posts. She wants you back, but she has resistance.
> 
> Tell me about your depression and the medication, how long has that been going on, and is it temporary or forever?


depression not diagnosed until after stroke...probably existed pre-stroke...wife identified the symptoms...

meds: citalopram

i've been told the treatment should be nine months or so...

why???


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> i've been told the treatment should be nine months or so...
> 
> why???


Nice one.

So you're going to be completely put back together, good as new if not better


----------



## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> Nice one.
> 
> So you're going to be completely put back together, good as new if not better


yeah, as soon as we're back together...ha!...no..i'm about there now...why?


----------



## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> Nice one.
> 
> So you're going to be completely put back together, good as new if not better


i don't understand...what gives you the idea she still loves me??? and what does my depression have to do with your advice???


----------



## voivod

holy smokes...when it rains it pours...beth called me tonight for help with mechanical issue on her van. i don't know if i can afford to help her, but i'm going to play "knight on a white horse" and get it taken care of for her. we exchanged "honeys" on the phone as she hung up...i told her i'd be over tonight to take a look and get it in the shop tomorrow...if she doesn't know how much she means to me now, she never will...i reached tears as i was hanging up...it seemed like the old days, me and her solving a problem...


----------



## MarkTwain

mommy22 said:


> I'll say from a woman's perspective, many times we just feel safer emotionally if you're the one making the first move. It just sounds like she's throwing out hints to see if you'll bite. Have you tried holding her hand? How does she react if you touch her in any way? Does she pull away or does she respond positively? While playing hard to get can be good, it only works if the other person is very patient. Otherwise, the person will get frustrated and exasperated. She has shown much patience. Is she showing signs that she's okay with the way things are going currently or is she giving you vibes that she's ready to SLOWLY escalate?


Totally agree. It's as if voivod has lost his nerve. I think she is ready and primed for something. That is why it's important to ask for the right thing: Intimacy, not "playing house". And by ask I don't mean with words - touch is best. It can be accepted by moving closer or just staying the same; it can be harmlessly rejected by moving away. Even moving away does not signal that you aren't welcome to try again.

Have you see many nature documentaries? The male animal often has to chase the female round the yard/jungle several times before she quits running away


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> declined by saying (text) "busy" but that was a lie. she took it fine.


I specifically told you not to lie! If you get found out, your word will be worth less. Genuine mistakes women will tolerate - otherwise the human population would be zero - but lies... Hmmmmm. 

If she questions you on it, you had better have a plausible excuse ready. Even if it is "Sorry, I needed some ME time, but it was easier to type BUSY".


----------



## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> I specifically told you not to lie! If you get found out, your word will be worth less. Genuine mistakes women will tolerate - otherwise the human population would be zero - but lies... Hmmmmm.
> 
> If she questions you on it, you had better have a plausible excuse ready. Even if it is "Sorry, I needed some ME time, but it was easier to type BUSY".


ha! iu was at work. i texted "busy" because of the irony of it all...the economy is so sideways that we havent been "busy" at work so far yet in december. she got it, because she WAS busy as it turned out.


----------



## voivod

mommy22 said:


> I think it's time to take it up an ante. We need some stage-setting here. How about a night out where you can have an intimate setting? It's time for a kiss or something. You've gotta work it in slowly, but how do you think she'd respond? What if instead of kissing her on the lips you just started kissing her on the neck? Could the two of you rent a movie and watch it in the dark? You know, set the mood? You could kiss her neck once or twice and see how she responds. What does your therapist say concerning any kind of intimacy?
> 
> I'll say from a woman's perspective, many times we just feel safer emotionally if you're the one making the first move. It just sounds like she's throwing out hints to see if you'll bite. Have you tried holding her hand? How does she react if you touch her in any way? Does she pull away or does she respond positively? While playing hard to get can be good, it only works if the other person is very patient. Otherwise, the person will get frustrated and exasperated. She has shown much patience. Is she showing signs that she's okay with the way things are going currently or is she giving you vibes that she's ready to SLOWLY escalate?



therapist says the risk is that any show of intimacy can appear to be "pressure." having said that, you have no idea how difficult it is to avoid anything more than the somewhat tame "shoulder rub" (which i did again last night)...she has an expectation, i think, that i will respect her "space" or boundaries. i am more than willing to give her the time and space necessary.

mark twain mentioned me "losing my nerve." maybe i have. i was so aggressive in the original "chase"...courting was a danse macabre of sexual desire, which worked out great. she was incredibly responsive to my advances. i'm almost sure that i've hurt her so bad that she can conjure up those feelings to the point of anger towards me. although beth has been incredibly welcoming and open towards me lately, i still have a fear of rejection. for instance, we're planning our traditional family night for new years eve. the kids are excited about it, with games, music and snacks already planned. beth has been cordially invited, she has committed to it, but i fear that she will back out at the last minute. i am a negative thinker. i'm afraid she's going to do something that makes me give up. loonie, huh? i just wish things were more clear. or are they, and i'm just missing it?


----------



## voivod

mommy22 said:


> By the way, in case you ever worry about us forum users caring about you, I just noticed that this thread has 52 pages!! We're living your life vicariously right along side you!


i know...this madness hasta end somewhere! and thank you all for caring!

i just don't know what my fear is...rejection or rejection leading me to giving up...it seems like now i am trying to fast track it and i'm being told by counselor to give her "all the time she needs" to sort it out, that "the evidence indicates she IS sorting things out."
if i didn't love her so much, i'd have blown this relationship up!

i caught myself feeling sorry for myself today...wondering what is worse? what i did or an emotional or physical affair? because it seems like beth sure should be able to get over this easier than she has.


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> because it seems like beth sure should be able to get over this easier than she has.


Seems like you sure could try rubbing more than her shoulder by now. So what if you get rejected. You can pull back and make her gasp for more attention, several days later. 

It's a dance, not target practise. You get more than one shot.

If you get away with something small, you can *slowly *up the ante over several weeks. Do not rush things once they start moving. You don't want her to wake up one morning and reflect on her weakness in giving in to you. But if you build up incrementally, it can be your fault, but she didn't mind.


----------



## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> Seems like you sure could try rubbing more than her shoulder by now. So what if you get rejected. You can pull back and make her gasp for more attention, several days later.


why would she turn cold today? one day after asking me for mechanical help on the van, and one day before new years eve? makes me wonder, is there a "gasp" in there?



MarkTwain said:


> It's a dance, not target practise. You get more than one shot.


one would hope.



MarkTwain said:


> If you get away with something small, you can *slowly *up the ante over several weeks. Do not rush things once they start moving. You don't want her to wake up one morning and reflect on her weakness in giving in to you. But if you build up incrementally, it can be your fault, but she didn't mind.


she has been so warm and welcoming for the longest time. i just don't know if she would be happy with me "getting after her."


----------



## voivod

not gonna count my chickens but my 10 year old just got off the phone with mom and it sounds like she's planning on coming over here for new yrs eve. i prayed for this.

it's not like i am not used to her being hot and cold...it's just so much harder when there's something on the line. sometimes i feel like she's gonna dump a big fat d-bomb on me, and in the same week, she can be so soft, kind and loving.


----------



## voivod

just spoke with counselor...been there done that kinda counselor...says that the best i could hope for is where we are at now...said "why push, let her pull"...didn't think it best to push. build the friendship...it's worked so far i think...so i'm gonna do that. happy new year everyone.


----------



## Threeoh

Been reading your thread for the last half hour and it prompted me to register with this forum of fine people, real mates here for you.
Unfortunately the booze wrecked two relationships for me(one marriage and one partner) One of these moved heaven and earth to help me kick the addiction until the end when she realised it was hopeless she gave up. I will never forget her telling me on the day we split for good that she loved me dearly but she could not go on with the dry spells and then the failures, it was all very tearful.
She said if it was another woman she could tear her hair out and poke her eyes out but there was nothing she could do to a bottle!
Point I am trying to get over is maybe Beth is scared you will revert to your old "not very nice self" if you got back with her. I made so many promises and could appear best guy in the world after leaving the unit only to be the drunken sod again three months after worming my way back home. 
Perhaps it's fear of the future holding her back? Lots of time is what she needs. Not good for you I know. She has to be sure.
Just like to say I have been fine since 1986(old guy) My ex wife and partners did the right thing at that time and I am on good terms with them now although I have moved on into a new relationship years ago. I wish you luck and I do know how you feel believe me, maybe 2009 will do it for you. I did get happiness in the end but not the way I expected it.


----------



## voivod

Threeoh said:


> I will never forget her telling me on the day we split for good that she loved me dearly but she could not go on with the dry spells and then the failures, it was all very tearful.
> She said if it was another woman she could tear her hair out and poke her eyes out but there was nothing she could do to a bottle!


this is what my counselor said: "have you had an affair on beth? because she acts like a woman who has been cheated on."

beth made a reference a few weeks ago to a line she heard on hewr favorite television show...something about the only thing she could control in our relationship was her decision to leave.

i understang where she's coming from. i am sure my near death experience took a lot out of her...like she said at the time of that last beer..."how could you do this to someone who did so much to save your life!?!?" she was truly offended.



Threeoh said:


> Point I am trying to get over is maybe Beth is scared you will revert to your old "not very nice self" if you got back with her. I made so many promises and could appear best guy in the world after leaving the unit only to be the drunken sod again three months after worming my way back home.
> Perhaps it's fear of the future holding her back? Lots of time is what she needs.


my problem is i was a smooth talker...she knows i can win if it's just about words. i've talked myself out of so much trouble with her!

fear of the future is exactly what she is afraid of. she has said she doesn't want to be put in a position to have the kids see me in that situation again ("do you know how that traumatized the kids!?!?"...the answer is yes, i do). and trust me, i'm so willing to give her LOTS of time...if you've read this thread, you know i'm ready to do what it takes. she is literally the best woman in the world. think about this: after i put her through hell, she has been gracious enough to allow me back into her life, keep hope alive with her decision to see me on a regular basis...heck, she came over tonight for new years eve. she did go home early, as she works so many hours, she was tired...also my little boy's birthday tomorrow, so no problem...here's the kicker to the night: she asked me to help her with the mortgage on our WAY to expensive house. she wants to keep it, and she wants me involved. i can only read that as a good thing.



Threeoh said:


> She has to be sure.


as i've stated many times here...i want her to be sure. we're gonna be real good together. i'll do my part. i am committed to being the best husband and father. promise i made to God when i had my stroke. beth knows.

btw-threeoh...it's humbling that my thread prompted you to register here...welcome!


----------



## draconis

I have read without coming on, but you know before I say it what my advice would be. Hang in there, enjoy the newness, clossness and wooing of beth. Give her time and space. You say you'd do anthing for her how about understanding and patience?

draconis


----------



## voivod

draconis said:


> I have read without coming on, but you know before I say it what my advice would be. Hang in there, enjoy the newness, clossness and wooing of beth. Give her time and space. You say you'd do anthing for her how about understanding and patience?
> 
> draconis


yep. i'm on board drac...patience is easy to come by depending on the day...today was cool, so i am cool...understanding is coming along buddy...


----------



## draconis

I wish you well in the new year.

draconis


----------



## voivod

draconis said:


> I wish you well in the new year.
> 
> draconis


thank you...the new year will be good, better than 2008...the past year was a nightmare


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## voivod

started 2009 out fabulous...celebrated my son's 6th birthday...mom said the presents were "from mom and dad"...nice team effort by her since she did the shopping...

then we had an early dinner (my treat) and watched the rose bowl...then we watched 4 or 5 episodes of "House" on dvd. i got a love tap in on beth's bum, which she did not recoil or protest...then a quick kiss on the forehead when i left at about 10:30.

we also took a mid-day nap together (in the living room) but she really seemed to be comfortable with me...

tomorrow night, she invited me to play the american idol video game and guitar hero with her and the kids...

i don't really know what happened between 12/30/08 and 1/1/09, but i feel beth getting closer! the mortgage discussion was HUGE, my disability caused all sort of financial problems with our house that i've just begun fixing (HER dream house, she designed it for us) she let me in on a NEW little secret about her apartment lease that sorta can put the ball in my court. can the walls possibly be coming down?


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## draconis

She is giving some trust over to you? That is a hugh step and her testing the waters. Be good with her, she gives you the power use it responcible.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> She is giving some trust over to you? That is a hugh step and her testing the waters. Be good with her, she gives you the power use it responcible.
> 
> draconis


drac--

i'm back to the point where i'm looking at the "evidence" and how things "seem"...it seems to me that when beth implies that i should stay and watch tv with her...the evidence seems to indicate she wants me around, right? 

and what about "help with the mortgage?" i am the one who can solve the financial issues with it...and ther little "secret about her apartment lease is the kitty she got for my daughter...as it stands now, the kitty doesn't fit the criteria of the rules of the apartments...so she's feeling pressure there...

but more than anything, it's what she is feeling...she is comfortable (apparently) allowing me to take a nap there (i did yesterday) and she asks me to stay way late and watch her dvd with her...she asks me to come back the next night almost every time i am there.

am i too hopeful? am i seeing too much silver lining and not enough clouds? does it seem like she loves me? am i crazy?

for mark twain: i did sneak a love tap slap on the butt last night and an affectionate rub on the shoulder without being told to stop. i'm trying man.


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## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> for mark twain: i did sneak a love tap slap on the butt last night and an affectionate rub on the shoulder without being told to stop. i'm trying man.


You need to get this cranked up before she moves back in with that kitty cat - or that'll be the only pus**y you'll be getting


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> You need to get this cranked up before she moves back in with that kitty cat - or that'll be the only pus**y you'll be getting


come on, dude! i'm doing what i think is right, it seems like beth is giving me the right signals, but i can't jump in her pants. so what, i'm failing?

besides, i don't want to escalate the sexuality and make her feel uncomfortable. i'm going over again tonight after work. she is letting me get closer than ever now. why step on my own **** now?


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## MarkTwain

voivod-

I was just giving you encouragement. She might actually want you to get fresh, did you think of that?


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> voivod-
> 
> I was just giving you encouragement. She might actually want you to get fresh, did you think of that?


i figured as much. thank you! i just wanted to use the opportunity to use the phrase "step on my ****"!!!!

actually, can a woman completely shut down sexually based upon her husband asinine behavior of years?

because i have been wondering about the "getting fresh" thing...i think she's letting me, and letting herself be more accepting to the idea.


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## MarkTwain

voivod-

One thing that worries me about your current relationship with Beth is that it is completely regulated by her. Of course in the past it was completely controlled by you, so there may be some balance in a round about way, but neither system is healthy.

She got fed up with your control of the situation, partly because that control was not benign. 

If you can call a few of the shots and surprise her with your spontaneity your value in her estimation will increase. This is where the occasional turning down of some of her requests might come in.

By turning her down, you will also be making space to call her and suggest get-togethers of your own.

But really I'm just waffling, you're doing great already


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## lostluv

voivod said:


> actually, can a woman completely shut down sexually based upon her husband asinine behavior of years?


Absolutely!!! Also worth noting, it can be very hard to get it restarted for the same reason. Sounds like you are doing great! Keep observing those cues and doing what you can to be in tune with her, it WILL pay off!


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## draconis

voivod~ anyone can shut themself down sexually, the longer you go without it the less likely you will feel the want or need for it.

draconis


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## voivod

more seemingly good news...i got off work and went to beth's...she had prepared steak dinner and included a setting for me...wow...it felt good to know she had thought of me, then she popped "love actually" in the dvd player...watched it start to finish...if i didn't know better, i'd think she was giving me indicators that things are gonna be okay...


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## CPT CONFUSED

just wanted to pop my head in voi and say rock on man! your the **** and your doing awesome! keep up the good work buddy!:smthumbup:


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## voivod

CPT CONFUSED said:


> just wanted to pop my head in voi and say rock on man! your the **** and your doing awesome! keep up the good work buddy!:smthumbup:


thanks man...i wish i felt like i was doing awesome...every visit with beth feels so good, then i go home and go to sleep and wake up feeling depressed, like maybe i'm so close yet so far...the only thing missing last night was a gentle touch and a "would you like to stay tonight?"...maybe it's nowhere in her mind...but gosh, if you were a fly on the wall you'd be amazed that we weren't together...

little things get stuck in my head that make it feel like progress "regresses"...like last night when she said "why don't you have the kids next week so we can get back on schedule"...that kinda stuff never gets said between "united" families...

i don't know how to move forward without risking all the work i've done so far to make her feel secure with me. it's pretty obvious she feels secure with me now. she offers up the "do you wanna watch love actually?" stuff...we ENJOY each others' company, and it's not just me.

sad thing is, i come up with schemes to get us in situation where we'll be together from time to time...then i don't trust my own feelings of security when i'm with her...thoughts pop in my head like "is she just doing this (spending time with me) cuz she's using me to make herself feel secure" or to accomplish something.

i knew last night that i would wake up this morning with that depressed feeling because i have my hopes up. every time we're together i feel like we're getting closer to the day when we will be reunited...then when it doesn't happen (because we aren't ready, really we aren't) i get bummed again..."hang in there and keep doing what you are doing" is the best advice i've received if you are to believe counselors...i'm trying man...


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## voivod

lostluv said:


> Absolutely!!! Also worth noting, it can be very hard to get it restarted for the same reason. Sounds like you are doing great! Keep observing those cues and doing what you can to be in tune with her, it WILL pay off!


read the above post...i promise i'm doing everything i can to "keep in tune"...

thank you for your response to this thread...i just wish i could know how long i should be expected to tow the line. this is hard.


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## voivod

draconis said:


> voivod~ anyone can shut themself down sexually, the longer you go without it the less likely you will feel the want or need for it.
> 
> draconis


drac--
i see that now...we were always very sexual now she doesn't seem to "need" that kinda contact...that actually started when i refused to get a vasectomy after our last child was born...she told me i was being selfish and she would get her tubes tied..i said "no don't do that, my procedure is so much easier"...then i waited for a whole year to schedule it...i'm so stupid...

lately, she has allowed me to touch her, not in terribly intimate ways, but touch nonetheless...she also is making good contact verbally and is showing some tendency towards "nice"...if we were just dating the first time around, i might have already made a move on her...but we've been through so much crap with this separation that i don't think it's right to impose myself upon her...
having said that, i really want to go over and see her right now...that wouldn't be right, but i miss her, i miss the feelings i felt last night...


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## MarkTwain

voivod-

Just about the only problem now is that you want Beth so bad, you're addicted to a certain outcome. This is preventing you taking risks - in case you blow it.

Imagine you were in your younger days - 3 women after you, and you only need one. You act just how you like because if one avenue closes, another one opens. But now you're acting like you must have a certain result in your life, and that you might blow it. If you could let go more, you could relax yourself towards the prize.

What if you don't get the prize? Is it really the end of the world? If it is, you need to realise that your viewpoint is not healthy for you.

As an exercise, imagine that Beth rejects you, and eventually you find love elsewhere. You have to set her free if you really want to "have" her fully.


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## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> i refused to get a vasectomy after our last child was born...she told me i was being selfish and she would get her tubes tied..i said "no don't do that, my procedure is so much easier"...then i waited for a whole year to schedule it...i'm so stupid...


I bet you're re-writing history here. It was perfectly reasonable for you to hesitate at the thought of undertaking non essential surgery. But now with your new mindset, you see yourself as having been foolish.

A friend of mine took a lover, and complained about him all the time. Then she drove him away. He got another woman. After that she missed him, and every fault he had became a virtue in her new version of events. It hurts to hear her talk about him now, because I don't know which version to believe. She endlessly beats herself up about how stupid she was to let such a marvellous man slip through her fingers.


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> I bet you're re-writing history here. It was perfectly reasonable for you to hesitate at the thought of undertaking non essential surgery. But now with your new mindset, you see yourself as having been foolish.
> 
> A friend of mine took a lover, and complained about him all the time. Then she drove him away. He got another woman. After that she missed him, and every fault he had became a virtue in her new version of events. It hurts to hear her talk about him now, because I don't know which version to believe. She endlessly beats herself up about how stupid she was to let such a marvellous man slip through her fingers.


mark twain---
my point to the "im so stupid" comment was that i told her one thing then didn't follow through...that's typical of the behavior that she detests so much...that's all that was...


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> voivod-
> 
> Just about the only problem now is that you want Beth so bad, you're addicted to a certain outcome. This is preventing you taking risks - in case you blow it.


i get your point. risk taking is going to be necessary at some point. but i think i have taken considerable risks to this point. they have paid off.




MarkTwain said:


> What if you don't get the prize? Is it really the end of the world? If it is, you need to realise that your viewpoint is not healthy for you.
> 
> As an exercise, imagine that Beth rejects you, and eventually you find love elsewhere. You have to set her free if you really want to "have" her fully.


is it the end of the world??? i don't know, but i have to make my efforts like it's "do or die." you know, like when youre team is on the offensive side of the pitch, last minutes, down by a goal...you run your keeper up into the offensive zone and crash the box to try and score the match tying goal...risky? maybe...but what do you have to lose?

"setting her free" actually has been a goal of mine. it has been fairly difficult...in fact my decision to NOT hop in the truck and drive over there right now is my version of "setting her free." giving that essential space, where she can do things while she doesn't have to think of me...understand this, there were points last night where i felt almost compelled to wrap my arms around her and lay a big wet kiss on her. it's tempting, and something i would have done back in the day when we were originally dating. and i just know she still loves me, but...well...here we are...because you know what...i could go over there right now and be WELCOMED in...and i'm not gonna do it...

and this just keeps ringing in my ear:

"okay amy, just give me some time"

it's just time...i can give that...and if time leads to reconciliation...why should i take any further risks?


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## Guest

Voi, January 5th is my D day. I have put my heart and soul into saving my marriage only to now come to terms that it was never her true desire.

So I look at this 55 PAGE thread and think, at some point you need to get off the forum and approach her. Tell her you want to reconcile and she is the one for you. Stop before this thread turns into 1000 pages. At some point you need to profess your feelings and TRUE intentions.

I dont want to come back here in 6 months and see this thing still going....

As for me, I have had the blinders pulled over my eyes and allowed myself to be manipulated to a point that I am falling out of love finally with my wife. She or more likely, her boyfriend will read this post and use it against me, not that it matters anymore. I hope they enjoy a long and lasting life together.

You however have not got this against you and need to get in that truck, go over there, and sweep her off her feet. Give her that passionate kiss, tell her you love her, and your going to make this work. Your commited to her heart, mind and soul. If its what she wants, she wouldnt have been this responsive so far, otherwise you still wouldn't be trying. The door would have been closed.

See you in six months, well honestly, hopefully not in this thread.

CYA and best of luck.

Jason


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## voivod

Jason said:


> Voi, January 5th is my D day. I have put my heart and soul into saving my marriage only to now come to terms that it was never her true desire.
> 
> So I look at this 55 PAGE thread and think, at some point you need to get off the forum and approach her. Tell her you want to reconcile and she is the one for you. Stop before this thread turns into 1000 pages. At some point you need to profess your feelings and TRUE intentions.
> 
> I dont want to come back here in 6 months and see this thing still going....
> 
> As for me, I have had the blinders pulled over my eyes and allowed myself to be manipulated to a point that I am falling out of love finally with my wife. She or more likely, her boyfriend will read this post and use it against me, not that it matters anymore. I hope they enjoy a long and lasting life together.
> 
> You however have not got this against you and need to get in that truck, go over there, and sweep her off her feet. Give her that passionate kiss, tell her you love her, and your going to make this work. Your commited to her heart, mind and soul. If its what she wants, she wouldnt have been this responsive so far, otherwise you still wouldn't be trying. The door would have been closed.
> 
> See you in six months, well honestly, hopefully not in this thread.
> 
> CYA and best of luck.
> 
> Jason


cool...the first opportune moment, i'm going in.
you made a statement that made me go, okay...it was


Jason said:


> Give her that passionate kiss, tell her you love her, and your going to make this work. Your commited to her heart, mind and soul. If its what she wants, she wouldnt have been this responsive so far, otherwise you still wouldn't be trying. The door would have been closed.


you seem to be saying what i've wanted to hear from a third party...she is responsive because she...

what? still wants us to work out?

thanks for your response.


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## Sprite

I am sorry I have been away so long, and I have a lot to respond to so this will probably be long(as usual). And I am going to be brutally honest here, I hope I don't offend you because that is not my intention. Having been through this, I only want to help you see the other side.

First, Beth does love you..but I disagree with who said she is in love with you. She obviously has not reached that point yet, but it seems she is getting closer to it!

She will not be able to fall back in love with you untill she feels she can truely be herself around you. This will come by you doing what you are doing now. Allow her the opportunities to be herself without making her feel awkward or embarassed. Once she feels that and knows it is for real...she will not be able to keep her hands off you! Something you can look forward to  This was a big issue of mine...not being able to be myself...so I know where she is at! Has she told you exactly what it was that you did to make her feel that way? If you know what it was..you must try your hardest to reverse it. I am going to assume it was the controlling and jealous side of you that did it. You have to SHOW her that you will never control her again, that you will never tell her how she should think or feel, or how she should handle a situation. "you should" should not be in your vocabulary any more when you talk to her. "I would(do it this way)" should not be in there either. Instead use phrases like "this is only my opinion, take it or leave it", "I am not telling you what to do". Ask her what SHE wants to do...and even if you may not want to do the same thing..do it for her...let her take control of it and just run with it. This will show her she CAN be herself and you dont have all the control. This is BIG...trust me!!! She may feel like that person in the house episode..but she is finally realizing that the other thing she can control that no one else can, is herself. Having been through this, it was a big hurdle to over come. After years of being in the back ground and feeling like her ideas and words did not make any difference or didnt mean anything because they fell on deaf ears, is one of the hardest things SHE will have to over come. By you giving her the space you have been is going to help her with that. By you being her friend is going to help her with that. WE act differntly with spouses than we do with friends. With friends, we don't care how we act...we can be silly, emotional, *****ey, make mistakes, etc., and it doesn't matter, that person will still be our friend(if they are a true friend). With a spouse, it is a little different because we think of the consequences of our behavior and don't want to do something that will get looked at as "unacceptable" behavior to them. You have to let her know that what ever she may do is acceptable! If she wants to be silly, let her be and be silly with her. If she makes a mistake because you "allowed" her to make a desicion about something, dont EVER say "I told you so(or anything to that effect)", just let her know that you will be there to help her fix it IF she needs or wants your help.

Beth being on her own right now is very empowering for her. She probably does not feel like she is or was your equal in the relationship, and that hurts. There is not much you can do to help her get that feeling of equality except give her the time and space so she can work it out on her own, and show her that you have no intentions of being like that again. Once she accepts that you have changed to the point where you are NOT controlling any more, she will start to relax.

Jealousy is a whole nother issue. To her, your jealousy feels like you don't trust her. She is a good woman and sounds like the type that will do "the right thing". You have to let go of the jealousy and let her know you trust her judgement. This won't be easy since it is a part of who you are. She can not expect you to get rid of it completely, and sometimes it is a little flattering to have someone jealous over you, it shows you care about her and you want her to be with you. BUT, you have to give her the space and the trust to let her handle a situation where jealousy may be playing a part, in HER way. Getting jealous and all worked up over her having a "girls night out" is unacceptable. She has already proved to you that she is faithful to YOU. What more do you need to let the jealous side of you go? She hasnt had an affair, she hasnt ran away, she hasnt done anything so stupid(as far as we know) to give you the right to be jealous. If she is good looking and has men flirt with her....good for her...every woman needs to feel like a woman and hear it from someone other than their spouse. Its not a bad thing! It makes her feel good about herself..but has she ever strayed from you because of it?? NO!!! So stop it! I know that is easier said than done, but you need to find a way to control that part of you so you never let it get in the way of you and Beth again!

I see a lot of people saying "kiss her, kiss her"....hmm, only YOU know if the time is right. Kiss her? yes...but on the forehead, on the cheek, a peck on the lips before a hug...but NOT on the neck and no tongue!!! The neck is a weak spot and means more than just an affectionate kiss on the forehead or cheek. She may take it as you looking for some action, and I honestly don't think she is completely ready for that yet. I honestly believe you should be taking it slow like you are...no matter what anyone else is telling you and no matter what your hormones are telling you. Continue to flirt with her? ABSOLUTELY...it is playful and fun, but she can still keep a sexual distance from you. It is frustrating to you, I know..but eventually it will become more than just flirting, but you have to allow that to be on her terms. 

She needs to make some changes in herself just as much as you have been making your changes. Does she understand the communication differnces in men and women? If you have the book "Men are from Mars...." you should give it to her and ask her to read it. I didnt really start trusting in my husband again, until I understood there are such big differences in the ways we think and do things. If you give her the book, just let her know that you think it may help her understand why men do things the way they do. You all start out with good intentions, but handle things in a different way than women do, and it causes major conflicts. I can guarentee she will find something in that book that will make her think.."OH...THAT's why he did that" and things will become clearer to her. You may be telling her things, but until she "hears" it form someone else, it may not be making sense to her. 

Do you apologize to her? For things you did in the past? Do you let her know that you can't believe you actually were like that? Let her know that you know you can't change how you were, but that you will never be that person again. Don't be afraid to tell her how you feel...she needs to hear it. She may not react the way you want her to...but let her know how you feel. One of the approaches my husband took was to walk on eggshells around me. It only made him more frustrated, and it made me feel like he was not sincere. Don't be so guarded with your feelings. 

Men have a tendancy to over analyze every thing. STOP it!! AGain easier said than done. Stop letting your mind take control of you and make you think the worst of every situation.

When you guys get together it seems to be mostly at her place. Does she do all the cooking? How about you invite her over and YOU cook for HER? Pamper her a little. YOU pick the movies, but let her chose which one(s) to watch first. You have taken control of the situation, but you are allowing her to have some input. Plan a night out with her, no kids, and just have fun!!! She needs that. By putting her in fun type situations with no expectations, you are helping her to be herself. If she starts out being a little reserved...YOU do something crazy or silly or so spontaneous, that she would never expect it from the old you. Be her friend not her spouse!!

Having been through this, you are doing the right thing by taking it slow. Slow is what she needs, and slow will show her that you mean it. She is waiting for you to slip up!!! Even tho you don't have any intention of doing that, she is still waiting for it, and will be for a long time. 

What does she like to do to have fun? What has she mentioned that she would like to try? Figure that out and give it to her. But make sure it is someting you can handle. If she likes to go dancing...that usually means alcohol will be present....if you cant handle being around the alcohol, dont take her there, but if you can handle it and not be tempted..take her dancing and show her that you CAN handle it. If you cant handle the possibility of someone possibly flirting with her, dont take her, but if you can be strong and show her you can handle it...do it. You have to put yourself in situations that will show her you have changed...BUT only if you are ready and can react in a way that will make her smile!

It is your job now to help her know that she can be herslef with you, and she does not have to worry about your reaction. It won't happen over night, and the majority of that will have to come from her, but show her you can be her friend and allow her to be who she wants when she wants. I wish you much much luck in this! It will get frustrating for you, but hang in there, it will be worth it in the end!!!

It sounds like you have a good grip on how you want to handle this, and IMHO, you are doing it right. Not being pushy or overbearing or making her feel like she is being pressured into anything. Keep up the good work Voi...it WILL work to your advantage and the relationship you will have with Beth will be better than anything you could have imagined. Just please, keep your patience and keep giving her the space she needs to be herself. Eventually she will feel she is strong enough to do just that, but remember she is still working on it.


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## voivod

sprite,
you point about friends, when you said:

"With friends, we don't care how we act...we can be silly, emotional, *****ey, make mistakes, etc., and it doesn't matter, that person will still be our friend(if they are a true friend). With a spouse, it is a little different because we think of the consequences of our behavior and don't want to do something that will get looked at as "unacceptable" behavior to them. You have to let her know that what ever she may do is acceptable!"...

wow, how true...and i would welcome her displaying spontaneous behavior, but i think she IS afraid of showing it!!!

i appreciate your post, and i agree with the vast majority of it. the kiss is going to be a forehead kiss or a back of the shoulder kiss...not the open mouth, tongue version that was our first, passion-filled event (i remember it like it was yesterday). i'll make it feel safe.

and it's funny...i've learned that what i say doesn't really matter. it's how she perceives what i do. so to TELL her that i've done this or that to change has little meaning or effect. she has to see and interpret it, then she can trust that it's real...which is why i think this is taking so long...

thank you for your posts!


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## Sprite

It will take a long time, and you are a smart man! 

In time, she will show it. If she was a spontaneous person before you got married, she will be again. When she feels strong enough with herself, she will show it. SHe will come to a point where she realizes that it doesn't matter how she acts in front of you, because she will KNOW that you are her friend and you accept her for HER no matter what. But you have to be that friend for her. It takes time, but it will work! Her admitting little things to you now that you didn't know before is a sign that she is on her way there. She is testing the waters so to speak..to see how you are going to react. If she likes how you are reacting, then she will gradually open up more and more 

No need for thanks, I want to see you two back together. You remind me so much of what my husband was going through, and your post is what helped me to understand him the most..so I thank you! I want to be able to tell you the things he did that worked for me, so you might be able to help Beth get through what she needs to get through also.


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## voivod

Sprite said:


> It will take a long time, and you are a smart man!
> 
> In time, she will show it. If she was a spontaneous person before you got married, she will be again. When she feels strong enough with herself, she will show it.


she has some issues with that. although she is a very strong girl, i think she doesn't trust her strength. i think she was treated as a second class citizen by mommy dearest growing up.


Sprite said:


> She will come to a point where she realizes that it doesn't matter how she acts in front of you, because she will KNOW that you are her friend and you accept her for HER no matter what.


God how i wish she could know...that is exactly how i feel...i truly accept her for what she is...lucky for her, she's a princess!!! really, i've referred to her as a guardian angel, and she is...i wish you knew her...


Sprite said:


> But you have to be that friend for her. It takes time, but it will work! Her admitting little things to you now that you didn't know before is a sign that she is on her way there. She is testing the waters so to speak..to see how you are going to react. If she likes how you are reacting, then she will gradually open up more and more


she's opening up more every day, but she is too proud (or too something) to open up and show a weakness. she really plays strong-girl around me. which is crazy! i know she's tough as nails. but if she needs help (financially this week) i wish she would ask. i don't have much money, but she needs some and i'm going to call tomorrow and transfer some into her account. i wish she knew all she has to do is say the word.


Sprite said:


> No need for thanks, I want to see you two back together. You remind me so much of what my husband was going through, and your post is what helped me to understand him the most..so I thank you! I want to be able to tell you the things he did that worked for me, so you might be able to help Beth get through what she needs to get through also.


well, i'll determine my own gratitude, thank you very much. you have given me insight into what it's like to be on the other side AND what this side looks like from the other side. i think we're gonna make it. thank you.


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## voivod

okay...
she has always been the type to take on a challenge head-on...so here's where things are...

she has to move out or get rid of the kitty that she got my 10 year old daughter for her birthday. she has decided to keep the cat and find someplace else...now, part of me is thinking "you fight so flipping hard for the cat, yet you are not fighting very hard for me" (and i HAVE been thinking that, and i get angry). i have also tiptoed around the living together here idea where she can have the cat. she goes into avoidance mode when i bring that up, so i have stopped bringing it up.

last night i said "why don't we trade apartments so you can keep the cat and not have to go through the process." beth says "you can move in here (meaning i can take her apartment) but she stopped, quickly realizing what that sounded like.

you see, there are walls upon walls...i am so "there for her" all the time. if she's short on groceries, i'm there for her, if she needs help with ANYTHING, i'm there for her. i offer myself to her often...she does not take advantage of it because, as i started this post saying, "she is the type to take a challenge head-on."

i guess i'm saying she stubborn. that trait is working against me. if she does find a new place, i feel like it's working against me. i don't know why, maybe i hate change so much...maybe i'm afraid of her in a new situation, which would present new opportunities (i do know what that sounds like)...i have such a hard time with change that whenever we've done anything like purchase a new car it weighed heavily on me.

i'm stuck. my own head is working against me. i'm using this "move" of hers as an excercise in "letting go" in that she's not really letting go, she's just taking care of business as it should be. i don't like myself for the way i feel about it. but the way i really feel is that we could solve ALL our problems by having her and the kids move back here. and her defense mechanisms won't allow it. even though i've been a complete prince for these months.

it keeps ringing in my ears: "amy, just give me some time"


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## draconis

You are right she sounds stubborn, but it must be that trait that kept her by your side for so long too. She is still with you, no dropping the other shoe etc. It sounds like she is waiting for certian things to happen, and not knowing what those things are is driving you crazy. Enjoy what you have for now and kep improving.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis--
y'know, i'm still seeing a counselor once a week (to continue my "work" on myself) and i sometimes get angry at her because she is so passive...she doesn't exactly TELL me what the next step is...she evaluate what has been going on and if it's working, she says to keep doing that. if it doesn't work, try something else. her training is in "outcome based" therapy.

so the reason i get so angry about it (inwardly) is that i wonder if it really IS "working." i mean, i'm still on the outside looking in. she says similar things about time, that it could take a while. yeah, well it HAS.

i told the counselor about the way beth affects me. example: i offered to do some shopping for her. she said "no, but thank you" very cheerfully and THAT raised my mood. i took my youngest daughter over there for a few minutes and stayed in the truck. beth came out and made a point to wave at me, smile and say "come in if you want to" and THAT raised my mood. i tried to tell the counselor that she shouldn't affect me that way. counselor said "you still love her, right?" of course i do! "so throw the RULES out the window. she's gonna make you feel real good and sometime not so good."

when i ask the counselor to help me with things to improve the situation, it's always "keep doing what you are doing." same as here. but man alive, isn't there SOMETHING else???


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## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> but man alive, isn't there SOMETHING else???


Hang back more. Let her feel the vacuum.


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> Hang back more. Let her feel the vacuum.


mark twain...
i've tried, but i apparently don't have the fortitude to do that. but i'll try.


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## draconis

V- is she still with you? well than she still loves you and you have been doing something right, just not right enough or LONG enough. I told you again and again, time up to a year to heal the riff you caused and after a few good months you are already feeling beaten. Don't you are on track, stay with it, keep doing the right thing. To heck with a vacuum, if she is spoiled by you with all the little things than maybe she will realize no other smuck could ever replace you.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> You are right she sounds stubborn, but it must be that trait that kept her by your side for so long too. She is still with you, no dropping the other shoe etc. It sounds like she is waiting for certian things to happen, and not knowing what those things are is driving you crazy. Enjoy what you have for now and keep improving.
> 
> draconis


so tonight i think i screwed up, but i swear it's not my fault. i'm kinda tired of being the doormat in this situation. i'm telling you, i've been a freakin prince! so tonight, i got angry at beth for telling me that i had to pick the kids up from school tomorrow. i reacted by saying "i have to work too" and she hung up the phone on me. after i thought about it for a few minutes, i realized that i told her i would take care of the taking and picking up. so then she texts me saying it's "unfair" and she is mad at me. 

so then i go over there after work and it turns out that my two youngest have been going at it all night and that beth's period has been super heavy this time and she's cranky, but graciously accepts my apology.

then she breaks down and tels me that my two youngest are overwhelming her. she, for the first time, says "maybe it's me, but..." and leaves it at that. i personally have been waiting to see some kind of contrition in her with regard to "me me me" and i think that was it.

it was our first argument since we separated. i think it might have been productive if she's stick by the idea that she has some fault.


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## draconis

Well maybe after looking for you to make the histake she realizes that she has. DOn't push it because no one is perfect and everyone is allowed to have bad days. Be thankful she has stuck this out with you as well.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> Well maybe after looking for you to make the histake she realizes that she has. DOn't push it because no one is perfect and everyone is allowed to have bad days. Be thankful she has stuck this out with you as well.
> 
> draconis


drac---
and y'all (my cheering section)...

this is HUGE...

beth was out looking at houses last night because of the cat...
anyways...
my little girl was in the back seat of the van and my oldest was in the front...
beth leaned over to my oldest and whispered to her "i think we're gonna move into the house and have dad move back in"
my little girl heard it and relayed it to me tonight!!!!
i can't believe it!!!! on a day when i gave her a card congradulating her for her promotion at work AND the day when i jumped her $#!T for being selfish...PLUS on a day where she took some responsibility for being a *****!!!!

stand by...maybe a good thing coming...i'm now officially patient...it's easy when i know she loves me...YEEEHAWWWW!!!


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## voivod

mommy22 said:


> Hey, but be sure not to confront Beth on this little tidbit of information. Hold it under your hat.


absolutely! that's what i meant about patience. i'm not gonna push it or act any differently. just to know she's thinking that way is such a wonderful change is situation. i'm going to keep doing exactly what i've been doing.


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## Sprite

OMG, Voi...that is awesome!!!!! In my honest opinion I think that would be the best thing for the 2 of you..to be living together. NOW, I am so happy my H didn't go for the seperation route because it would have made me a stronger person on my own, and it would have taken me much MUCH longer to come around.

After reading the past few posts about Beth's reaction to things....she is tired! She as a woman finally feels some self worth because of her job and promotion. We tend to discount the fact that being a Mom is the hardest job in the world with the best out come in the end(if our kids turn out to be good kids). Being Mom all the time does not give us the self satisfaction we need because we feel we HAVE to be there for our kids. We don't get paid for it, we get taken advantage of, we feel we get used and abused, we never get a vacation even ON vacation, its a 24/7/365 job that has no end in sight. This gets tiring and occasionally we feel like we don't want to do it any more(even tho we know we can't stop), and we start to wonder if there is something else out there for us. We start to think about the things we may have missed out on because we are Moms and wives. We feel like we can't get anything done for ouselves because we have to stop what we are doing if the children need us for something. Thus the case of the arguement about picking the kids up...at that moment she was feeling.."why do I have to do everything myself?", which might not necessarily be the case, but thats how she was feeling at that moment in time and she reacted by getting angry about it. She was also disappointed because you said you would take care of it, and on that day, you happened to be busy and didnt have time to do it. She was thinking..."he told me he would, now he is going back on his word". This is not fair to you because you do have a job too, she cannot expect you to drop everything and do what she asks of you, but in her mind she is thinking she has every right to expect that. I am glad you understand her periods and her coinciding behavior, it makes us do things and react to things in a way that might not be the same if it was a "normal" day. In our minds, we don't get any kudos for doing a good job as Mom or wife, but we can get kudos in a job by getting raises or promotions.

I think she is feeling a little overwhelmed at her money situation, but does NOT want to ask for help from you. She doesn't want YOU thinking she needs you for anything, and she doesn't want herself to need you for anything, that makes her feel vulnerable. She is stubborn so she will hold on to that as long as she can. Eventually, when she thinks about it, she will realize she is being stubborn and it isn't worth it for her to keep it up. As a stubborn person myself, I know how this works! We tend to do things "just because we can", but in the end it wears us down. She doesn't want to "give in"!

Can I ask how old Beth is? There is a possibility she is going through some changes that she is unaware of in herself. 

Who did most of the child raising in your marriage?

When you first met, where you a take charge kind of person? Did that attract her to you?

Do you 2 ever go out as just you 2 and no kids? Did you do that before all this happened?

I ask those questions because I have some ideas on what you can do to help her without her realizing you are doing it. But, I don't want to assume anything.


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## Sprite

draconis said:


> V- is she still with you? well than she still loves you and you have been doing something right, just not right enough or LONG enough. I told you again and again, time up to a year to heal the riff you caused and after a few good months you are already feeling beaten. Don't you are on track, stay with it, keep doing the right thing. To heck with a vacuum, if she is spoiled by you with all the little things than maybe she will realize no other smuck could ever replace you.
> 
> draconis


EXACTLY!!!! :iagree: :smthumbup:


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## voivod

Sprite said:


> After reading the past few posts about Beth's reaction to things....she is tired! She as a woman finally feels some self worth because of her job and promotion. We tend to discount the fact that being a Mom is the hardest job in the world with the best out come in the end(if our kids turn out to be good kids). Being Mom all the time does not give us the self satisfaction we need because we feel we HAVE to be there for our kids. We don't get paid for it, we get taken advantage of, we feel we get used and abused, we never get a vacation even ON vacation, its a 24/7/365 job that has no end in sight. This gets tiring and occasionally we feel like we don't want to do it any more(even tho we know we can't stop), and we start to wonder if there is something else out there for us. We start to think about the things we may have missed out on because we are Moms and wives. We feel like we can't get anything done for ouselves because we have to stop what we are doing if the children need us for something. Thus the case of the arguement about picking the kids up...at that moment she was feeling.."why do I have to do everything myself?", which might not necessarily be the case, but thats how she was feeling at that moment in time and she reacted by getting angry about it. She was also disappointed because you said you would take care of it, and on that day, you happened to be busy and didnt have time to do it. She was thinking..."he told me he would, now he is going back on his word".


you have no idea how much that rings true. it made itself apparent to me when my 11 yr old texted me at work last night and said"she's still mad because she thinks it's unfair that you said you'd make it work when you went back to work." she felt out of control of the situation and yes, i see where she was hurt because, to her, i WAS being unfair. i changed the rules that she had been playing by.


Sprite said:


> I think she is feeling a little overwhelmed at her money situation, but does NOT want to ask for help from you. She doesn't want YOU thinking she needs you for anything, and she doesn't want herself to need you for anything, that makes her feel vulnerable.


vulnerability is something she does NOT want to feel, now or ever. on a side note, i make sure she gets a good chunk of my disability pay from SS so she doesn't have to work any more than she already does. somtimes that creeps into my thinking. which makes me think "why the hell can't she bend the rules a little bit and help me with picking up the kids from school?"



Sprite said:


> Can I ask how old Beth is? There is a possibility she is going through some changes that she is unaware of in herself.


beth is 36. we have discussed the changes that may or may not be going on with her. i don't think she wants to admit it.


Sprite said:


> Who did most of the child raising in your marriage?.


beth did virtually ALL the child-raising.


Sprite said:


> When you first met, where you a take charge kind of person? Did that attract her to you?.


when we first met i APPEARED to her to be "take charge." i was a mid-manager directly in charge of her department at work. and i was a very efficient manager. that, and my propensity to have FUN were two things that attracted her to me.


Sprite said:


> Do you 2 ever go out as just you 2 and no kids? Did you do that before all this happened?.


um...well, our kids are our life. my oldest is a major college caliber soccer goalkeeper, so a lot of our travel/recreation surrounded that pursuit. since the other kids are much younger, we give them separate but equal attention. but they are all center to our being, we've only taken one vacation without them (bahamas). our fun is usually derived from their pursuits.


Sprite said:


> I ask those questions because I have some ideas on what you can do to help her without her realizing you are doing it. But, I don't want to assume anything.


okay, lay it on me.

ps-i slept better than i have for months last night. this feeling is so good. my work is paying off materially as well as spiritually!


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## Sprite

ok, i can not figure out how to do a multiple quote..so this will probably look messy...

vulnerability is something she does NOT want to feel, now or ever. on a side note, i make sure she gets a good chunk of my disability pay from SS so she doesn't have to work any more than she already does. somtimes that creeps into my thinking. which makes me think "why the hell can't she bend the rules a little bit and help me with picking up the kids from school?"

does your oldest daughter have her drivers lisence? Give her some responsibility to pick up the other children from school. When any family has 2 working parents, the kids need to contribute what they can so Mom and Dad don't go crazy. She can't bend the rules because she feels her job is important enough for you do do as you said you would. Right now she doesn't want to compromise with that. If your jobs and picking up the kids are going to create an issue, you need to sit down with her and devise a plan that works. Let her know that you can't just leave work at a moments notice to pick them up..if you have a schedule, and she has a schedule...and the kids get out of school the same time everyday..there is no reason why both of you can pick days when you can pick them up without it interfering in your jobs.(this is assuming your 17 year old does not have her license)

beth is 36. we have discussed the changes that may or may not be going on with her. i don't think she wants to admit it.

It doesn't sound like she is going through menopause or early menopause at all. BUT, she is nearing the age of the mid life crisis thing. Not saying that is what she is going through completely, but it could be a small part...she will never admit this to you or herself because it is not usually heard of in women. She is wondering what else is out there for her, and she wants to explore that. Thank God she is not exploring it in destructive ways. She needs to feel like a woman again! She lost that in being a Mom and wife. Does she ever go to the salon and have her hair done(other than a simple cut or trim)? Does she ever take the time to get her nails done? Has she been dressing differently? Has she gone shopping for herself? These are some of the things that make us feel like women. Have you noticed any kind of change in the way she makes her appearance? As a woman, she wants to be noticed by other men...this doesnt mean she wants to date someone else, she just wants to be noticed. She needs you to make her feel feminine without being pushy. Tell her she looks great today! If she happens to be wearing a low cut blouse one day...say something along the lines of..."Gee honey, you keep dressing that way and you will have every man in the neighborhood after you" make it a jokey kind of flirty comment. This will make her feel good about being a woman. She will like the fact that you have noticed! Make comments about her butt...since she doesnt like that part of herself(most woman dont), she likes to hear that you like it. Don't be afraid to tell her if she looks particularily hot one day! You can tell her she is "hot" without it going any further, and it makes her feel great. You will make her smile!

beth did virtually ALL the child-raising.

This was the case in my marriage also. Do you constantly let her know that she has done a great job? do you ever thank her for it? She wants to hear that all her hard work is being noticed and paid off by a simple thank you. Don't be afraid to tell her that the kids wouldn't be so good if it wasnt for her. Let her know that you underestand she did all the hard work, and you are greatful for her being such a great Mom. I'm not talking about once in a while..comment on it at LEAST twice a week...eventually it will start to sink into her head that you are true in your words. It will make her feel good about bieng Mom and herself! You will give her that sence of accomplishment!

when we first met i APPEARED to her to be "take charge." i was a mid-manager directly in charge of her department at work. and i was a very efficient manager. that, and my propensity to have FUN were two things that attracted her to me.

OK. so show this to her again. Instead of asking her if she needs help with groceries(you know she will tell you no)....go out and do the shopping for her one week...bring the kids with you, this way they can help you in determining what Beth usually buys. Buy a special snack or treat JUST for Beth. If she gets upset about it, just tell her..."I want to make sure my queen has everything she needs". Don't tell her about it ahead of time, but take charge and do it for her. this shows her 2 things. One, you are willing to help with the day to day or week to week chores to help her have time to herself and get done what she needs to get done. Two, you are taking charge(one of the qualities she admired you for before) in helping her since she is stubborn and wont ask or accept your help. But don't say that you are "helping" her, she doesn't want to hear that. Just let her know you understand she has been busy and thought it would ease her mind that she didn't have to worry about going grocery shopping that week. She just might get used to that! Ask her if you can come over one night and make dinner for her and the kids, so that when she gets home from work, she doesn't have to worry about it. Have the kids help you, I am sure they would be happy to. But then clean up when dinner is done. 


um...well, our kids are our life. my oldest is a major college caliber soccer goalkeeper, so a lot of our travel/recreation surrounded that pursuit. since the other kids are much younger, we give them separate but equal attention. but they are all center to our being, we've only taken one vacation without them (bahamas). our fun is usually derived from their pursuits.

THis is a trap that so many people fall into...I was one of them! It took me a LONG time to realize that my kids did NOT need me 24/7. You have a 17 year old daughter...again, give her some responsability!!! Don't tell me that if you asked her to watch the kids one night so you and Beth could go out, she would say no...she wants to see you 2 happy too and will be willing to contribute what she can so that can happen. If you and Beth do not go out by yourselves, it takes away from who you are as a couple. You forget that you are human beings that at one time could not keep your hands off each other, and wanted nothing more than to spend some time together alone! This has to happen again. You have to find time for you and Beth ONLY!!! This is not easy because our lives revolve around our kids...but they will be just fine if Mom and Dad go out for a night(even if it is only for a couple hours). Be spontaneous with this if you can. You can set it up with your daughter ahead of time to watch the kids for a few hours, then just show up and sweep Beth off her feet. Tell her you are taking her out to have some fun and that you already made arrangements for the kids to be taken care of. Again, you are taking charge, but are also being responsable in thinking about the care of the younger kids. You are also giving her the opportunity to cut loose and be herself without having to worry about the kids, work, or anything else. Hopefully she will just go with it and not put up a fight or arguement about it, but I highly doubt she will. Find something she misses doing, and take her there! If she says she can't because of this or that...remind her that this or that will be there when she gets back. Tell her she deserves to have some fun tonight! But, have a back up plan. You won't really know what she would enjoy unless you know her mood that day. If she needs to relax, take her to a movie and her favorite restaurant, or try a new one. Make sure the movie is a comedy to keep the mood light and fun. Have one picked out already. If she is in an upbeat mood and has some energy to burn, think of something active. Take her to a go kart track(thats always fun), or bowling, or miniature golf. What ever it is she likes to do, or something you used to do when you first started dating. Again you will make her smile because she will see that you want to have fun with her and all your worries can wait until later.

It sounds to me like you can not ask her ahead of time because she will say no, that she is busy, or that she has to get this done..blah blah blah!!! You have to find a way to be the one that "makes" her have time to have fun. If she shoots you down, try not to be too discouraged. She still has a major sense of responsibility, and may not be to the point where she realizes that she can be responsible and still have time for fun. 

Try to imagine every come back she will have to tell you no, and come up with a reason why it can wait. The first thing is going to be the children....she might say NO, I have to stay home with the kids....then you tell her that you already have that figured out and taken care of. If she says NO, I have to get this done for work...ask her if tomorrow is the "due date". If she says yes, well, then that kind of throws a kink into it, but let her know you will stay and entertain the kids so she can get it done in peace. If she says it is not due tomorrow, remind her that all work and no play make a dull person.


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## voivod

lots of good information sprite...
you have no idea how much each of you mean to me and have helped me...i feel like it's not over, but i can see a finish line.
thank you.


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## voivod

draconis said:


> Well maybe after looking for you to make the histake she realizes that she has. DOn't push it because no one is perfect and everyone is allowed to have bad days. Be thankful she has stuck this out with you as well.
> 
> draconis


drac--
i hate to say it...but i think beth is showing signs of "cracking"...there is too much pressure on her...i'm not applying it, but she's feeling it...financial and otherwise...i'm hoping that is not influencing her decision-making...should i help with the situation, or just take it as it comes?


----------



## CPT CONFUSED

voi i read the reply that you wrote about what beth had said to your daughter about you moving back into the house.and im not ashamed in any way to let you know it virtually brought tears to my eyes instantly. im glad to say that i am very proud of how you have handled all of this up untill this point.and i wish you nothing but the best! im hoping i can take some of your positive mantra and use it on myself today! reading that reply just made my day! keep on trucking my friend the best is yet to come!!!



CPT


----------



## voivod

CPT CONFUSED said:


> voi i read the reply that you wrote about what beth had said to your daughter about you moving back into the house.and im not ashamed in any way to let you know it virtually brought tears to my eyes instantly. im glad to say that i am very proud of how you have handled all of this up untill this point.and i wish you nothing but the best! im hoping i can take some of your positive mantra and use it on myself today! reading that reply just made my day! keep on trucking my friend the best is yet to come!!!
> 
> CPT


one thing i've learned cpt...it's not over til it's over...whether it be the good or the bad...i thought for sure my marriage was over june 20th...hell, it might still be...and i had a fleeting thought that this separation might be over night before last...again, i was wrong on both counts...which leads me to this: don't take ANYTHING for granted. work, work, work...even if you think it's unfair that you have to do all the work. it doesn't matter if you care. i care, about beth, about her family, about my kids, about my family and about OUR family. that, and the encouragement of you fine folks here, has got me through this horrifying experience. i have cried, gotten madder than a cornered snake, have felt dispair, overwhelming joy, the entire range of emotions. and i took winston churchill's words to heart. ever heard the story?

churchill was asked to give the commencement speech at a university in england. he struggled with a topic to speak to the graduates about. finally, he decided on a topic, perserverance. so the day of commencement, he got up to the podium, and repeated these words nine times: "never give up." nine times. then he left the podium...to a standing ovation.

those kids understood. we should understand.

when i left beth's house last night to go to the grocery store to pick up a few thing for her, she said "thanks, hon." and those words were so strong to me. made my night. i hate to see her struggling emotionally. i've seen it for days. she got mad at the kids a couple of days ago. really mad. then she got mad at me. and she said "maybe it's me..." i've never heard her take any blame during this whole thing. she's having a hard time coping. and i know that i could manipulate the situation into my favor. but i don't dare. i'm going at it with kid gloves...gently...it's her move, balls in her court.

patience. draconis has preached it. as have mommy22, swedish, justean, mark twain, and others. now is when patience becomes paramount.

thank you for your prayers. remember, it's not over til it's over, either way.


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## voivod

mommy22 said:


> I just got goosebumps! You're right, that is HUGE!!! I'm thrilled for you. Hey, but be sure not to confront Beth on this little tidbit of information. Hold it under your hat.


thanks m22!

funny thing is, now is when being patient is most difficult. i have seen light at the end of the tunnel. it's gonna make me wanna speed things up. but there's no way.

i'm sure now is when i should step back. fun things happened tonight in between disheartening stuff. i did suggest that beth let me keep the kitty with me so she wouldn't have to move out of her apartment. but she said she was gonna look at a couple of other places first.

then her mom, the controlling m.i.l., called and got herself involved by offering to help beth financially...she doesn't miss a trick to become the center of attention. how does beth NOT see that she is being manipulated by that woman?!?! 

i think she's taking steps to look as independent as she can to me. i admire that in her. but she's in trouble. i want to help, but i don't wanna overwhelm. so many things going on in her life right now.

i'm getting "hon's" from her again, and giving them back without her acting uncomfortable with me saying it. if we do get back together, i'm calling it a miracle. beth is strong-willed and stubborn. i thought we were done june 20th, and may 19th, and i think i'm really gonna get a chance! 

watched a movie tonight. tomorrow same agenda. please pray for my family if you are the praying type.


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## StrongEnough

Saying lots of prayers for your right now voi! Maintain the patience! I think you are doing one heck of a job!


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## voivod

StrongEnough said:


> Saying lots of prayers for your right now voi! Maintain the patience! I think you are doing one heck of a job!


thank you so much!


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## voivod

now, here we are. beth has talked out loud about us living together again. and then she has talked about getting a different house. i have offered to take the kitty for convenience. i think i am ahead of myself a little in worrying about her looking at other houses, unless her mom chips in for deposit money. but in a way, i think i need to stay in the loop as that could derail any plans for us living together again. is there something else i could be doing to gently ease the situation in my favor???

i think i am spinning out of control because i was told she was considering living together. now i want it. now.

i can't give up, i can't throw away the years we have together. yet something tells me i'm not making the progress i need to. i am sad so much of the time. i see time pass. holidays, tax year, birthdays, everything changes. i just want my baby back. this is so damned hard.


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## voivod

mommy22 said:


> I say leave it alone and see what happens. She wouldn't have said what she said to your daughter if she didn't mean it (about moving back in together). If you go tinkering with things now, you may end up wishing you hadn't.


amen m22,
i agree with that thought.

back, forth, back, forth...i'm gonna need a full psychological workup when this is over! tonight i got such a reassurance from beth that i am on the right track. lotsa "honey's" tonight, she manuevered things tonight where i sat next to her on the love seat, she said "thanks for coming over" rather than thanks for the movie, groceries, etc.

btw m22,
you were right about asking her what she needed from the store. so rather than taking her at her word, i bought groceries. and it wasn't that hard. her diet is easy to buy for. i just stuck to that and "voila"...she was happy!

she cancelled looking at new rentals today too! i was so worried she might be having second thought about us moving back in together. i don't wanna jinx things, but she cancelled the walk-throughs!

so here i am, at 10:56 pm, on cloud nine. wow!


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## voivod

like i said last night, back, forth, back, forth. it's amazing how the little things screw with my head or make me happy. last night i was happy because of something little like "thanks for coming over" and the well accepted "hon's" and tonight, i'm getting ready to go home and i rubbbed beths back like i knows she likes. it goes well, so i began stroking her hair. i got the distinct feeling that she pulled away slightly. darn it. then again, i was looking over her latest scrapbook project. my pictures appear prominently. i don't think she's completely writing me out of her life, but i don't feel any closer today. the loaded question would be this :is there any way i can earn back her trust? have i not displayed that i can live an honorable life befitting her? if i was sure the answers were positive, i would move forward and ask her. why am i so scared???

so we did talk about the houses tonight, and our house, which i am trying to modify the loan on. this is the house that she designed and had built. anyway, i told her i'm gonna keep it if i can get the loan modified, and she did not object. i put that in the same category of "she has not filed for divorce." also, the kitty that's getting in the way of her keeping her apartment, she asked me to keep the cat. this is good because she will still be in the month to month lease.

why the hell am i so insecure. i can't see the things you guys can apparently. is there a light at the end of this tunnel?

ADDED AFTER POSTED: i'm sorry this post has turned into a personal pity party. i am feeling sorry for myself because my wife won't see the light. even though i see time after time guys getting dumped on by their spouse...not wanting to stay together, talking trash to their faces. i don't have the right to feel sorry for myself when things are going relatively well.

i admit to some bitterness. i never saw this separation going 6 month, yet here we are. hell, i never saw us apart...okay, that's not quite true...i thought the clock was running on me with beth. she was too good to be true. maybe i became a self fulfilling prophet. too many times i tempted fate with her. sooner or later, it was gonna bite me in the ass. just not like this, or so i thought.

but the brighter side looks like this: she seems to be softening, saying some encouraging things, we're not divorced, i don't see that happening (if she was gonna, wouldn't that have happened already???that's my take on it) we spend great time together, you guys know the story.

anyway, i apologize for the pity party. i just want this to become a part of the past. let this nightmare be over.


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## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> i'm getting ready to go home and i rubbbed beths back like i knows she likes. it goes well, so i began stroking her hair. i got the distinct feeling that she pulled away slightly


This is a good sign. You upped the ante - she was slightly shocked - only slightly, and she did not run a mile, or call the cops 

She needs time to process what just happened. You moved the goal posts, and for 5 seconds she was not in control. What you should do now is back off. Don't call as much, and I'm telling you that little back rub will be playing on her mind - in a good way.


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## swedish

voivod said:


> beth leaned over to my oldest and whispered to her "i think we're gonna move into the house and have dad move back in"


wow!


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## voivod

swedish said:


> wow!


yeah...then swedish, why do i feel today sooo far away from a solution???? it seems like i get needy whenever beth says or does something that sounds like we're getting back together. of course it initially keeps me together. but it sends me uuuup...then brings me dowwwwn when it doesn't happen right away. i want to believe the things i am hearing through my children. but i don't know how much it's helping me.


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## swedish

Every day, you hang on the words and actions of Beth...I can totally understand that, because that is your focus right now, so from day to day or hour to hour depending on what's being said and done, your mind races back and forth. I'm sure it is unsettling.

I was just catching up on your thread today and that quote obviously popped right out and made me do the Napolean Dynamite "Yeeessss!!!"

That is a huge milestone, IMO, not just that Beth is thinking in that direction, but that she is letting one of your kids in on it...As a mom, she wouldn't want to play with their emotions or say something like that unless she was pretty sure of her intentions.

You feel far away, because you continue to be patient, which leaves the timing somewhat out of your control...keep hanging on...I have goosebumps now...this is really good...again IMHO!


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## voivod

swedish said:


> Every day, you hang on the words and actions of Beth...I can totally understand that, because that is your focus right now, so from day to day or hour to hour depending on what's being said and done, your mind races back and forth. I'm sure it is unsettling.
> 
> I was just catching up on your thread today and that quote obviously popped right out and made me do the Napolean Dynamite "Yeeessss!!!"
> 
> That is a huge milestone, IMO, not just that Beth is thinking in that direction, but that she is letting one of your kids in on it...As a mom, she wouldn't want to play with their emotions or say something like that unless she was pretty sure of her intentions.
> 
> You feel far away, because you continue to be patient, which leaves the timing somewhat out of your control...keep hanging on...I have goosebumps now...this is really good...again IMHO!


your opinion means a lot to me...question: my daughter is getting impatient too. she wants to ask mom what it all means...i've been telling her it's probably not a good idea for her to do that. what do you think?


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> This is a good sign. You upped the ante - she was slightly shocked - only slightly, and she did not run a mile, or call the cops
> 
> She needs time to process what just happened. You moved the goal posts, and for 5 seconds she was not in control. What you should do now is back off. Don't call as much, and I'm telling you that little back rub will be playing on her mind - in a good way.


advice taken. thank you.


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## swedish

voivod said:


> your opinion means a lot to me...question: my daughter is getting impatient too. she wants to ask mom what it all means...i've been telling her it's probably not a good idea for her to do that. what do you think?


Kids, no matter what their age, want to see their parents happy...and together, so I'm sure she is anxious and hopeful that the separation will end soon. As a mom, I am always grateful when my kids share things with me that bother them. When they are teens, sometimes it's things I wish I wasn't hearing, but I am still grateful that they feel comfortable enough to open up to me. I don't see anything wrong with telling her to be open with Beth with questions...this affects her future too. But I would leave those conversations between her and mom...the last thing you need is for Beth to think she is being set up to 'spy' or something.


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## voivod

swedish said:


> Kids, no matter what their age, want to see their parents happy...and together, so I'm sure she is anxious and hopeful that the separation will end soon. As a mom, I am always grateful when my kids share things with me that bother them. When they are teens, sometimes it's things I wish I wasn't hearing, but I am still grateful that they feel comfortable enough to open up to me. I don't see anything wrong with telling her to be open with Beth with questions...this affects her future too. But I would leave those conversations between her and mom...the last thing you need is for Beth to think she is being set up to 'spy' or something.


spoke with counselor today..her opinion is that mom is giving only the info to my kids that they can handle emotionally. okay, i guess i understand that. counselor also feels that i have to hold beth accountable for recognizing my improvements. the improvements must, however, be identifiable and quantifiable.

that's the tough part, she says. because the improvements are subjective. i did hear a cool sermon today on "jealousy." i think God sent me to hear it! i'm starting to get it...sllllowwwly.

no beth today, except this morning before she went to work. and that was her choice.


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## swedish

voivod said:


> i did hear a cool sermon today on "jealousy." i think God sent me to hear it! i'm starting to get it...sllllowwwly.


That's cool. I can read a book on the inner workings of a CPU no problem but when it comes to understanding my own various feelings....slllowwwwly says it all! 

Do you talk to Beth about sermons that impact you? Sharing those light bulb moments would probably get her thinking about all the progress you have made/are making.


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## MarkTwain

swedish said:


> I can read a book on the inner workings of a CPU no problem


Swedish, are you a female techie ? wey cooooool


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## swedish

yep huge nerd here :awink:


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## MarkTwain

swedish said:


> yep huge nerd here :awink:


I designed a small 16 bit CPU recently, built up from the gate level. One instruction per clock cycle, and 2 or 3 addressing modes. I fitted the whole thing in a 20,000 gate CPLD with room to spare for the interface to the USB chip. It don't get any sexier than that.


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## voivod

swedish said:


> Do you talk to Beth about sermons that impact you? Sharing those light bulb moments would probably get her thinking about all the progress you have made/are making.


no, i don't. i really try to stick to the plan. no talking heavy about relationship, only have fun. rebuild the friendship. no pressure. i think she'd think i was trying to manipulate her feelings. she does not know me as a God loving person. she's supposed to pick that up on her own.

we watched a movie the other night called "the genius club" or something like that. it had a faith based theme. it made quite an impact on both of us. she asked me what i thought about God. i told her. step one.

can i take a minute here to say something?

every day brings me new challenges. some days, just an utterance out of beth's mouth can make my day. other times any little variance in her attitude can take me down. today was a prime example. i asked her to have lunch with me. she declined, but she explained that in her new position at work, she has to take lunch at noon or she doesn't get one. but she did tell me "thank you for asking." so right now i feel prett good. had she stopped at "no," i'm sure i'd have been down in the dumps. 

i'm sure you smart people have seen my "hot and cold" or "black and white" behavior. i know that causes problems in all my relationships. i don't know how to control it, but i wonder if it gets in the way of me and beth. i'm sure it does.

plus, in this anonymous setting, i can wear my emotions on my sleeve. and i do. so when i hear that bethie has made a statement out loud about living together again, my mood reflects that and i convey a "we're getting back together!" attitude. when the reality is, we're only getting closer. there's no date carved in stone. 

i combine things to create a reality that works. like the lease on her apt being up, her acting more loving or open or softer, etc. i make it very difficult on myself, i'm sure.

i come here looking for someone to tell me "see, that means she still loves you!" or "i've been in her situation. you're making headway!" if i'm using this place wrong, i am sorry. but i am truly lost without her.


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## swedish

Whether it's counseling, posting here or keeping your mind at peace with Beth's words and actions, I think it all falls under doing the right thing...IMO that's what this place is for...to hopefully help in whatever way possible for you to get through this and the more you hear from various places you are able to soak in and sort out and take action to keep yourself moving forward.


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## voivod

swedish said:


> Whether it's counseling, posting here or keeping your mind at peace with Beth's words and actions, I think it all falls under doing the right thing...IMO that's what this place is for...to hopefully help in whatever way possible for you to get through this and the more you hear from various places you are able to soak in and sort out and take action to keep yourself moving forward.


yes, i agree. i think circumstances are forcing my mind toward doing something i feel is totally destructive to the potential repair of the relationship. and i think it's because i see some light at the end of the tunnel. that light has teased me for days and now, i want to see it clearer.

my mind is at this point: what the heck do i have to lose? i am strongly considering forcing beth's hand, making her make a decision. scary, because i don't have a "horse in the race." but she *has* said out loud things that make my daughter believe we are going to live together again.

so i'm considering putting pressure on. make her make a decision. *i'm getting tired of trying*, you know what i mean? if she didn't want me around, she would have done something about it, right?

so i keep hopping back to you post where you said:

I had a pretty sizable wall of my own and MT is right on target here. She is the only one that will tear down the wall and for me it came down to 2 things:

*knowing not doing so would mean the end of my marriage 
*feeling loved and safe enough that my husband wouldn't let me down 

Which ever way things turn out with the test and the tough decisions that may follow, be really sure within yourself that you can forgive and move forward with your marriage before you put demands of her on the table. If you decide to stay, you will need to do it together...the 'ok you screwed up bad so now I'm calling all the shots' approach will only reinforce whatever feelings she was having back in December...that she is on her own, unsupported, alone. 

i want to make beth feel like the marriage would end if she doesn't come around to my thinking. bad? good?


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## swedish

voivod said:


> i want to make beth feel like the marriage would end if she doesn't come around to my thinking. bad? good?


Not sure.  It really depends on Beth's state of mind with everything. In my case, I had no intentions of separating or divorcing so it hit me hard and I knew I needed to act. In Beth's case, she has already gone through the emotional difficulties of separating. In your situation, she may have not wanted it at all but felt it was the only option left at that point and I would imagine it wasn't something she took lightly. That's where I would worry that trying to force something might backfire...it took her years to finally take a stand and say 'no more' so in that sense I think she needs to feel really sure that when she reverses that stance that she's feeling confident things are and will remain stable on your end.

Bottom line, my second bullet point needs to be firmly in place (from Beth's perspective, not yours) before the first one can even be considered.


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## voivod

swedish said:


> Bottom line, my second bullet point needs to be firmly in place (from Beth's perspective, not yours) before the first one can even be considered.


and, paradoxically enough, she's the only one that will know that feeling...

relationships are hard...


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## swedish

no kidding...sometimes this helps:

:banghead:


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## voivod

swedish,
i'm coming to the conclusion that at this point i should be happy with what i have (counselor helped me to that conclusion) and what i have is not what to work on. so, okay, i have her friendship and her mindset is changing with regard to moving back in together. neither the friendship nor the minset is perfect, but whatever i'm doing is working.


so i'm to keep going with my efforts to improve the friendship and hopefully time will take care of beth's mindset for moving back in. it's not happening today, but at least she's thinking that direction. your explanation for your walls coming down:

*knowing not doing so would mean the end of my marriage 
*feeling loved and safe enough that my husband wouldn't let me down

is kinda hard because bullet point one indicate you were already moving the direction of reconciliation.

i don't KNOW that's where beth is going.


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## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> is kinda hard because bullet point one indicate you were already moving the direction of reconciliation.


A very interesting point you make here. So ask yourself: where is she on this question. 

I bet she thinks about it a lot.


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> A very interesting point you make here. So ask yourself: where is she on this question.
> 
> I bet she thinks about it a lot.


what makes you think so mt? because tonight she had my son call me to bring over a screwdriver to fix a toy of his...so i fixed it, and she pokes her head downstairs and says "i'm not ignoring you, i'm just scrap-booking."

she's being affected by my backing off already!


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## voivod

so confusing now. beth has joey call me to bring over a screwdriver to fix his monster truck toy at almost 10pm, then when i get there she makes a point to tell me she's not ignoring me, she's just upstairs doing scrapbooking. then she invites me over last night to watch tv very cheerfully, then today she wants me to bring over this book she needs...something i could easily fit into our regular schedule...she's acting like me...setting up scenarios where we will be together...what has happened???


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## MarkTwain

How is the flirting going? You may need to up it a notch


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> How is the flirting going? You may need to up it a notch


haha...funny you shouls ask...i had it on full bore last night...today beth gave me kind of a "whatever" act toward my flirting...maybe i'm not being obvious enough...but *she* is now calling and texting *me* regarding our daily evening rendezvous'...


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## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> haha...funny you shouls ask...i had it on full bore last night...today beth gave me kind of a "whatever" act toward my flirting...maybe i'm not being obvious enough...but *she* is now calling and texting *me* regarding our daily evening rendezvous'...


That means she wants more! Ask any woman on this forum - they don't invite more visits from someone that is coming on stronger than they want.

So what you should do is hang back a bit on the visits, but when you _do_ go, be even more flirty. You must be so close now...


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## Sprite

voivod said:


> i want to make beth feel like the marriage would end if she doesn't come around to my thinking. bad? good?


BAD!!! What this means to HER is that you want her to think like YOU. In a way it makes her feel like your way of thinking is right and hers is wrong. This is something she will have to feel on her own and sadly there is absolutely NOTHING you can do to make her feel it.

After catching up on your posts, I personally think it is time that you let her know EXACTLY how you feel about her. Let her know that you feel lost without her. I think if she could read some of your posts she would understand your intentions better. Are you ever this open with her about your feelings?

As far as your daughter goes...do not recommend her say or not say anything to Mom. Let her speak for herself and ask her own questions. I used to tell my kids all the time...dont say this or dont say that, dont ask questions of your father. THat was wrong on my part. If I had let them ask questions about what they saw or what they were feeling, things might not have gotten so out of control on his part. Kids have an uncanny ability to see things so simply, things we don't give them credit for understanding. Give her the freedom to speak freely and ask freely...it might just make Beth take a step back and think about it a little harder.

You can not MAKE her trust you again. It is something(again) she has to find on her own. Part of it is that she doesn't trust herself. 

How are you so sure Beth had your son call you to fix the toy? Did you ever stop and think that he wanted YOU to fix it and not Mom? All Moms know that if you need a screwdriver and don't have one...a butter knife works the same. She could have easily fixed it with no problems. It might have been one of those instances where Beth wanted to sit back and see how YOU were going to handle the situation. Deep down she knows you will do anything for her, she may have wanted to see how much and how far you will go for the kids. This is HUGE for a Mom! In my case, I already had it set in my mind that if my boys would not be able to forgive Dad and trust him again, I never would. The kids come first always. When she sees you doing little things like this for your kids, it plays big on her heart and it is a plus for you.

For her to make it a point to tell you that she was not ignoring you was her way of letting you know that you do matter and she does care about your feelings, without coming out and saying it directly. As far as her setting up scenarios...well, again...she may be testing you. I went through a period of this with my husband...just to see for myself how much had he really changed, and how much can I really depend on him. I threw things at him that he would NEVER have done before. I tested him to see how true he really was. Nothing major, just little things that I had wished he had done all along like stopping at the store on his way home for milk....stopping at the store cuz one of the kids needed something for school...driving the kids around on the weekends with their friends...making dinner so I didnt have to. I didn't ask for rediculous things because that would have just been bad on my part, I didn't want to take advantage of him although I could have and he would have done anything I asked. 

The light you see at the end of the tunnel is there. But it is an optical illusion at this point. You feel like you can reach out and touch it, only to find that it is farther away than you think. Keep doing what you are doing, keep strong and true, tell her how you feel, and before you know it that light will be within your reach!


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## Sprite

MarkTwain said:


> That means she wants more! Ask any woman on this forum - they don't invite more visits from someone that is coming on stronger than they want.
> 
> So what you should do is hang back a bit on the visits, but when you _do_ go, be even more flirty. You must be so close now...


ABSOLUTELY!!! If we don't want more, we simply don't invite and don't answer the phone!


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## voivod

Sprite said:


> How are you so sure Beth had your son call you to fix the toy? Did you ever stop and think that he wanted YOU to fix it and not Mom? All Moms know that if you need a screwdriver and don't have one...a butter knife works the same. She could have easily fixed it with no problems. It might have been one of those instances where Beth wanted to sit back and see how YOU were going to handle the situation. Deep down she knows you will do anything for her, she may have wanted to see how much and how far you will go for the kids. This is HUGE for a Mom! In my case, I already had it set in my mind that if my boys would not be able to forgive Dad and trust him again, I never would. The kids come first always. When she sees you doing little things like this for your kids, it plays big on her heart and it is a plus for you.


yeah, but she knows the kids are huge for me. there is not a thing in the world i wouldn't do for them.




Sprite said:


> For her to make it a point to tell you that she was not ignoring you was her way of letting you know that you do matter and she does care about your feelings, without coming out and saying it directly. As far as her setting up scenarios...well, again...she may be testing you. I went through a period of this with my husband...just to see for myself how much had he really changed, and how much can I really depend on him. I threw things at him that he would NEVER have done before. I tested him to see how true he really was. Nothing major, just little things that I had wished he had done all along like stopping at the store on his way home for milk....stopping at the store cuz one of the kids needed something for school...driving the kids around on the weekends with their friends...making dinner so I didnt have to..


agreed...i think that i've done all those things she's put to me...point is, i believe you when you say it's kind of a test. that's the feeling i've gotten. and the "i'm not ignoring you" was suspect in it's timing. and frankly there was a time when i don't think she gave a damn whether i percieved that she was ignoring me or not. she's gotten to the point where she cares that it is known that she's not ignoring me. that's good.



Sprite said:


> The light you see at the end of the tunnel is there. But it is an optical illusion at this point. You feel like you can reach out and touch it, only to find that it is farther away than you think. Keep doing what you are doing, keep strong and true, tell her how you feel, and before you know it that light will be within your reach!


*whew*...more time????


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## voivod

Sprite said:


> ABSOLUTELY!!! If we don't want more, we simply don't invite and don't answer the phone!


i thought so...it's just making itself more clear
NOTE...ADDED AFTER POST: i didn't take the invitation tonight...rather i picked up the kids and chatted for awhile...upon leaving...i got a warm "bye bye hon"...sorta like it was comfortable...
fingers crossed...now i understand what patience is all about...when she said on may 20th "don't...i'm not your hon" in kinda a gruff/angry way to today when it just popped out of her mouth...that took a lot...now, i guess, the work begins...


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## swedish

voivod said:


> ...upon leaving...i got a warm "bye bye hon"...sorta like it was comfortable...
> fingers crossed...now i understand what patience is all about...when she said on may 20th "don't...i'm not your hon" in kinda a gruff/angry way to today when it just popped out of her mouth...that took a lot...now, i guess, the work begins...


I know which thread to read if I want my daily 'goosebumps'...I know it seems soooo sloooow but forward progress nonetheless


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## Sprite

Sadly yes, more time! But you have over come so many hurdles, and so has she. All you have to do now is wait for her to get it into her thick skull that this IS you.

Eventually her keeping you at a distance will wear on her...how long will that take? Who knows, it depends on how subborn she is!

I am so happy for you!!!!!!!


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## voivod

Sprite said:


> Sadly yes, more time! But you have over come so many hurdles, and so has she. All you have to do now is wait for her to get it into her thick skull that this IS you.
> 
> Eventually her keeping you at a distance will wear on her...how long will that take? Who knows, it depends on how subborn she is!
> 
> I am so happy for you!!!!!!!


you make two references to her stubbornness here...you have no idea, well, maybe you do...

she is incredibly stubborn...hates to be wrong, even when there's risk involved...

she convinces herself that she is right and stands on that...

i think that's a part of what she considers independence or strength...

example:
my 17 year old daughter got 2 speeding tickets within 30 days...she got her license temporarily suspended, which totally jacked up our insurance premiums...leaving my wife angry at the world...so today i'm trying to put the pieces of the puzzle back together...

it's gonna cost a heck of a lot more for car insurance and my wife is trying to find ways around it...kinda shady ways if you ask me...but she gets mad at me if i point that out to her...

as you can tell it makes it difficult from my end...


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## swedish

a way to filter some of that independence down to your daughter might be for her to pay the difference in premium...I was reading an article in the AAA magazine on teens driving (my 15 yr old just started driver's ed) and it said 'Don't drive as if you own the road, drive as if you own the car'....I had to pass that one along to my son


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## voivod

swedish said:


> a way to filter some of that independence down to your daughter might be for her to pay the difference in premium...I was reading an article in the AAA magazine on teens driving (my 15 yr old just started driver's ed) and it said 'Don't drive as if you own the road, drive as if you own the car'....I had to pass that one along to my son


yeah, she is extremely responsible and has already volunteered to pay for her insurance...it just gripes me that mom would even think to fib to the insurance company to save a little money in premiums...that's not like her and why i think she is cracking...


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## voivod

swedish said:


> I know which thread to read if I want my daily 'goosebumps'...I know it seems soooo sloooow but forward progress nonetheless


this is day 3 of backing off, and oh man...it's hard

i am sitting here wishing i could feel progress...my thoughts are actually very negative right now...i fell asleep last night imagining beth was in bed next to me...i remember the comfort and fear it's never going to be that way again and the more time that passes...well, it feels a little desperate...i don't feel like i did something to deserve this...


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## MarkTwain

3 days is excellent, she will be gasping for you.


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## Sprite

What do you mean you don't feel like you did something to deserve this?? Of course you did. you put her through how many years of hell.,...did SHE deserve that?


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## voivod

Sprite said:


> What do you mean you don't feel like you did something to deserve this?? Of course you did. you put her through how many years of hell.,...did SHE deserve that?


no, but man, i've been so good...she never told me about the stuff that i did that put her in this way...i never got a chance to fix it until it all went to hell


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## draconis

voivod said:


> no, but man, i've been so good...she never told me about the stuff that i did that put her in this way...i never got a chance to fix it until it all went to hell


That is normally how it goes in a relationship. You are never told until it is to late unless you have perfect communication.

draconis


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## MarkTwain

draconis said:


> That is normally how it goes in a relationship. You are never told until it is to late unless you have perfect communication.
> 
> draconis


:iagree: Totally on your page dude.


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## Sprite

I agree with that to a point...but...do you always have to be told when you do somehting wrong? I mean I think back of how my H was....he KNEW he was doing wrong..but he had to wait for me to almost leave to actually do somehting about it. Why is that?

If you know your spouse and can read them like you should.....you would know if something was wrong. Why do you have to be told? 

I am in no way trying to say you should be a mind reader, thats impossible. You are getting your chance to prove yourself to her now, but you already have a major negative against you. That negative is how you were before.


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## voivod

Sprite said:


> I agree with that to a point...but...do you always have to be told when you do somehting wrong? I mean I think back of how my H was....he KNEW he was doing wrong..but he had to wait for me to almost leave to actually do somehting about it. Why is that?
> 
> If you know your spouse and can read them like you should.....you would know if something was wrong. Why do you have to be told?
> 
> I am in no way trying to say you should be a mind reader, thats impossible. You are getting your chance to prove yourself to her now, but you already have a major negative against you. That negative is how you were before.


and in my case, the negative stuff was always "cute"...jealousy, partying, immaturity...once about two years ago she told me she wasn't happy...unfortunately we were terrible communicators, or maybe i wasn't ready to change...how i wish i could go back to that day and inquire what she was unhappy about...but would she have told me???

NOTE: ADDED AT 9:30PM...
i came clean to my counselor regarding my anxiety/jealousy today...very smart feedback was "why so anxious?"...good question, i thought. just invite yourself into her life, see what she says...did that, she accepted cheerily...we had a great time tonight..more of the "a woman who didn't want you around wouldn't keep saying yes...

i woke up this morning at 5:20 with an incredible urge...to tell her something...so i texted:

"just woke up with an overwhelmingly humbling urge to tell you that you are every bit as beautiful as you were on the day i met you."

she's shy, but i could tell by her demeanor tonight that she appreciated it...


----------



## voivod

beth's birthday tomorrow...she had already made plans to go out with her friends from work so we're going to dinner tonight..plans with her friends scares me...i don't really know these girls too well. i am worried that it becomes a wild "girls nite out" and my imagination runs wild. what will she do, what influence will alcohol have on her, who will she meet, what man will try to put the move on her??? crazy thoughts...she went out with them last year and nothing happened...why do i let it bother me this year??? oh yeah, because we're separated...then sunday is the one year anniversary of my stroke...crap! what a tough time this is...

on an upside...i swear i heard my name in a conversation about getting a new house...and the spoken "honey's" are more regular and well received...i gotta get through this birthday thing...i'll worry all night.


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> beth's birthday tomorrow...she had already made plans to go out with her friends from work so we're going to dinner tonight..plans with her friends scares me...i don't really know these girls too well. i am worried that it becomes a wild "girls nite out" and my imagination runs wild. what will she do, what influence will alcohol have on her, who will she meet, what man will try to put the move on her???


You are so controlling. Even if she meets someone it might remind her what she'll be losing.


----------



## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> You are so controlling. Even if she meets someone it might remind her what she'll be losing.


controlling? how is that? me worrying is controlling? how?

a woman doesn't meet someone to remind her of what she is losing. i'm saying the combination of alcohol and hormones scares me. that's not realistic?


----------



## lostluv

voivod said:


> a woman doesn't meet someone to remind her of what she is losing. i'm saying the combination of alcohol and hormones scares me. that's not realistic?


I can understand your worries but this is a perfect oppurtunity to display trust. She needs to see that you trust her and her decission making. That you will not try to control her actions or the situation. By showing her that trust you stand to gain alot.


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## voivod

lostluv said:


> I can understand your worries but this is a perfect oppurtunity to display trust. She needs to see that you trust her and her decission making. That you will not try to control her actions or the situation. By showing her that trust you stand to gain alot.


trust. i am not going to ask her about their night out, before or after. i am just going to worry. do i trust her? yeah. i don't like the potential for problems. and i don't trust alcohol.


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> controlling? how is that? me worrying is controlling? how?
> 
> a woman doesn't meet someone to remind her of what she is losing. i'm saying the combination of alcohol and hormones scares me. that's not realistic?


Because I bet in the past you would have either stopped her going out, or quizzed her, before after and during.  yeah we got your number...


----------



## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> Because I bet in the past you would have either stopped her going out, or quizzed her, before after and during.  yeah we got your number...


yeah, i would have quizzed her before and/or after but that was the* past*. now i just worry.

you got my number??? i've been completely honest and open here...how could you *not* have "my number"

and why the sudden "gotcha" harshness?


----------



## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> 3 days is excellent, she will be gasping for you.


a little cute birthday card got an "i love you"

dinner at her favorite restaurant got her a tummy ache

and...check this out mark twain...i took an incremental baby step up...kiss before leaving tonight...no resistance...baby steps buddy...slow and patient, doing all the right things...priceless...


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> and why the sudden "gotcha" harshness?


There was no harshness only humour 
Sometimes humour has a message wrapped up in it...


----------



## voivod

lostluv said:


> I can understand your worries but this is a perfect oppurtunity to display trust. She needs to see that you trust her and her decission making. That you will not try to control her actions or the situation. By showing her that trust you stand to gain alot.


i'm a moron...unless there is something to worry about with her bowling and going out to dinner with her friends...such stupid anxiety...

she went bowling at the student union bldg...no alcohol and didn't go out clubbing...made it a point to make sure i knew...crazy i am...


----------



## husbandinthemking

voivod said:


> a little cute birthday card got an "i love you"
> 
> dinner at her favorite restaurant got her a tummy ache
> 
> and...check this out mark twain...i took an incremental baby step up...kiss before leaving tonight...no resistance...baby steps buddy...slow and patient, doing all the right things...priceless...


It's like dating her all over again, isn't it? Hehe.


----------



## husbandinthemking

voivod said:


> trust. i am not going to ask her about their night out, before or after. i am just going to worry. do i trust her? yeah. i don't like the potential for problems. and i don't trust alcohol.


Yeah. Check the worried attitude at the door. NEVER not trust her at this time. Watch her of course and make note of anything out of the ordinary. I keep a journal myself. It allows me to see patterns that my wife might be making.

Did you tell her that you are going to go out also? And have a few drinks with some friends?

You really need to show her that you are not going to sit around waiting for her to have a good time. If she goes out, you should do so also. Do not let her perceive you as weak and boring. Now is a crucial time for you to show her that you are a value. 

Also, when going out, tell her about all the girls you ran into that night and the flirting they did with you. Do not tell her about the flirting you did with them though. Hehe.

Here's a question... How are you looking? You working out at all?


----------



## lostluv

For the record: I don't think you are a moron. I'm glad to hear that things turned out nothing like you envisioned they could. Hopefully this will allow you to be a bit calmer about things in the future.

Still sounds like things are moving in the right direction for you. I keep reading your post waiting for the day that you tell us all that you have reached that point when things are clearly progressing the way you both want and you are able to start believing in your happily ever after together again.


----------



## voivod

husbandinthemking said:


> Here's a question... How are you looking? You working out at all?


down 103 pounds...not toned up yet (stroke made my left side neurologically weak) but i'll get there. still tanned from the summer...i'm okay i guess...yes...rehab is definitely workout. plus i train my girls as soccer goalkeepers...i have an olympic delelopment team u-16...she works me hard!


----------



## husbandinthemking

voivod said:


> down 103 pounds...not toned up yet (stroke made my left side neurologically weak) but i'll get there. still tanned from the summer...i'm okay i guess...yes...rehab is definitely workout. plus i train my girls as soccer goalkeepers...i have an olympic delelopment team u-16...she works me hard!


Down 103 pounds?!?! Wow! You must feel pretty good about yourself right now. That is no easy task my friend...

I lost about 25 pounds and I treadmill workout everyday for about 20-30 minutes to keep it off.

You are defintely on the right path, that is for sure. Keep it up!


----------



## voivod

husbandinthemking said:


> Down 103 pounds?!?! Wow! You must feel pretty good about yourself right now. That is no easy task my friend...
> 
> I lost about 25 pounds and I treadmill workout everyday for about 20-30 minutes to keep it off.
> 
> You are defintely on the right path, that is for sure. Keep it up!


hitk-
this isn't about me physically...i have, over the years, worn her out...as i look back, what i see is a woman who catered to me...did everything in her power to make me happy...and i didn't show appreciation.

now, i am on the other side of the equation...i am doing everything i can to make sure she knows of my appreciation...i just don't know if it's enough now...

i know i cannot drink and give her the amount of effort that she deserves...so that part of my life has changed forever...

we spend almost every night with each other watching movie or tv...dinner often...it seems to me if she wanted this marriage to end, she would not invite me or accept my invitation to spend this time together...and that she would take ther legal route to end the marriage...

i am so thankful that she has not done that. all i need is for her to allow the "walls" to come down and give me a fair assesment. i think i could make her happy.

regarding your first suggestion, i truly am not interested in being flirty with other women. i could not do that, my own character cannot do that. i feel it would be damaging. i don't want to make her feel jealous or anything similar.

i am interested in your zaxxes info. please review my thread and pass along any other advice you might have. thank you.


----------



## Sprite

Isn't it funny that everytime you "over analyze" a sitution that Beth puts herself in(going out with her friends).....it always turns out there was nothing for you to be worried about? 

You don't have to know who her friends are to trust her....she has a level head on her shoulders and has proved to you that she isnt going to do "something stupid". You don't need to worry yourself about who she is friends with or what she is going to do when she goes out with them...worry yourself about how you portray your reaction to her.

Grats on the kiss!!!!


----------



## voivod

Sprite said:


> Isn't it funny that everytime you "over analyze" a sitution that Beth puts herself in(going out with her friends).....it always turns out there was nothing for you to be worried about?
> 
> You don't have to know who her friends are to trust her....she has a level head on her shoulders and has proved to you that she isnt going to do "something stupid". You don't need to worry yourself about who she is friends with or what she is going to do when she goes out with them...worry yourself about how you portray your reaction to her.
> 
> Grats on the kiss!!!!


it's comforting that i don't *have to* worry but it turns out that i *don't* have to and i feel ridiculous...

y'know i looked through photos from her scrapbooks a couple of nights ago...one of the things that drive me mad is the amount of women who choose to not wear there wedding ring and when &why they choose to not wear it...i just noticed that beth had hers on in every setting where her friends didn't...god i was stupid...i let my intense (then) jealousy or whatever it was control my emotions...if i had the ability then to control my own thoughts about stuff like that then, i might not be in this situation...


----------



## Sprite

Just always remember that she chose YOU to be her life partner..not someone else.


----------



## voivod

Sprite said:


> Just always remember that she chose YOU to be her life partner..not someone else.


that is what beth used to say too...i must be getting closer...and it feels like not...what is the next step???


----------



## voivod

Sprite said:


> Just always remember that she chose YOU to be her life partner..not someone else.


sprite...
i went back and read your original thread...you are beth and i am your husband!!!!

i have to ask you, what the hell is wrong in your marriage? and why can't you just accept what your husband is doing to make you happy?

admittedly, i could say the same thing to beth!

i patiently await your answer.

NOTE ADDED AFTER POSTING: these are not sarcastic questions. they sound that way in retrospect. please do not take them that way.


----------



## Sprite

voivod said:


> sprite...
> i went back and read your original thread...you are beth and i am your husband!!!!
> 
> i have to ask you, what the hell is wrong in your marriage? and why can't you just accept what your husband is doing to make you happy?
> 
> admittedly, i could say the same thing to beth!
> 
> i patiently await your answer.
> 
> NOTE ADDED AFTER POSTING: these are not sarcastic questions. they sound that way in retrospect. please do not take them that way.



What is wrong in my marriage is that the trust I had in the man that was supposed to pick me above all other things has been lost and trampled on. I have been taken advantage of and feel like I have been used for many many years. I stuck by him because I was being told that its what a wife does. I am a very loyal person. Beside the fact that I was threatened that i would never see my kids again(I don't think you did this to Beth...at least I hope not). So I stayed...all the time thinking that this is the bed I made, I must lie in it. The feelings I had over the years were basically feelings of being pretty much useless for anything other than taking care of the kids, cleaning the house, doing the bills, making sure he had what he needed. I was a live in maid, babysitter, nurse, accountant, and anything else you can think of that had no real say in any decision making. And because I was his wife, it was my duty to fulfill his desires without any considertaion for my own. There was no time for me or what I wanted, only him. So he got it all!

He is a very persuasive person and may as well be a salesman(no offense) becuase he had me convinced that this was the way it was supposed to be. I was the wife who didn't get introduced to people, I was the wife who did as she was told, I was the wife who was supposed to remain in the background while he was allowed to shine. While I was doing everything for him, I was left behind. He took and took and took everything he could get from me without a thought that maybe I needed more. But since I made a committment and we have children, it was to remain this way.

So now you ask why can't I just accept the fact that he is trying to make me happy now? Well, to be totally honest....I don't want it from him now. I wanted it years ago, but I wasn't important enough to him then for him to give me any little thing. I'm not talking about material things, they don't matter. I have gotten so used to him NOT being around that I began to enjoy it. I can not accpet what he is doing to make me happy now because it does not feel genuine. It feels like he is doing it to save his own ass because he doesn't want to be alone. It feels to me like a game...he has always known how to get his way, and he is doing just that now. He tells me he wants me to be happy weather it is with him or without him, but he doesn't really mean that. He wants me to be happy as long as it is with him. Along with the fact that over the years I have come to realize that he has ruined my trust, not only the trust I have in him, but others as well. One night when we were having a talk, I told him that if I had to make a decision right now at that moment...the way I was feeling was that he was NOT in my heart and I wanted to be done with him. For that moment I forgot about everyone but myself and MY happiness....but then he mentioned the kids, and I broke down because I have always vowed to myself that i would never make my kids go motherless or fatherless by divorcing. I refuse to carry on the legacy of MY own family. So I stay because of my kids..they need me, he doesn't. He never needed me, he only thought he did.

I had lack of self esteem issues when I met him, and in the beginning he helped me to get over a lot of that. But in the end, he only made it worse because he did the same thing to me. After years of being in the background, and feeling that you are not smart and don't know anything, one tends to start believeing it. So when he tells me NOW that I am smart, and I am creative, and whatever other compliments he throws my way, I don't believe him because he didnt believe in me enough to tell me those things when I needed for him to.

Because of how he neglected me in the past and the way our converstions always went, I still do not trust that what he says and does is real. I feel like he doesn't really mean them, its just his way of trying to get his way again and getting what he wants. Think about it, after 20 years of marriage and no real compliments, why should they seem like the truth now? I have no proof that he is genuine, he has never showed me that in the past. Why should I trust it now? What he has shown me is his pattern for changing for the moment, but once things get back to good for him....he finds something else to occupy his time. Why should I give him the chance to do that to me again?

When we first got married, we had plans. It feels like the same thing now. We have plans, but the pattern has always been to put that on hold until (insert what ever reason you want here). What assurance do I have that those plans will ever see the light of day? None of them have in the past...what makes the present so different?

I hope this can shed some light on your situation. And I am sorry if I sound bitter, but at the moment I am feeling bitter and sad. All the great ideas we had in the beginning and how great things could have been...if only I was important enough to matter to him since the beginning, and not until just now. In the end, he did not live up to his promises of being a good husband and father...untill he was on the verge of loosing it all. That would embarrass him, so he has to do what he must to keep it so he can feel better about himself.


----------



## voivod

maybe you are just going to punish him now by not allowing his efforts to make a difference. after all those years maybe he just deserves to be as miserable now and in the future as you apparently were, and that would show him.

if bitter and sad is what you are now, and if you can justify not being "taken in" by his fake changes, maybe your way to punish him for the past is to not "give in."

sound reasonable?

i am sad for you. you make a good argument against change for the better. it's a hard lesson that we learn. that you can't, or won't, accept that we can't change the past but only for the future. we want to make your future as glorious as we can.


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## Sprite

I am not trying to punish him in any way. I don't want him to feel sad or hurt and i know thats how he feels right now. I have felt it, and I don't wish that on anyone. That is the main reason I still find myslef keeping my mouth shut about certain things when I talk to him. 

What you say is totaly reasonable. His changes are not fake and I know that. But it doesn't mean it makes me trust him. I think I made an honest attempt to "give in" in the past month, but something happened...I can not pinpoint what it was...but something keeps taking me back to the point I am now. I don't know how to stop it from taking me back here. 

We know that you only want to make our lives as glorious as they can be in the future...but wasnt that your intention when you married us? I don't mean to make an arguement against change for the better, I only want you to understand that it is hard for us to forgive when so much has been taken away. And now that YOU are ready to make the change...we are supposed to just sit back and let it happen willingly? with a smile on our faces? Are we supposed to say to ourselves " yay, I can forget about all the hurt and disappointment in the past because he won't do it to me again?" We didnt think you were going to do it in the first place and we made ourselves vulnerable to you, TRUSTING that you would take care of our needs and wants from the beginning. TRUSTING that our lives together would be a 2 way street with some give and take and compromise. That's not how it played out. So now we find ourselves protecting ourselves from ever allowing that to happen again. We protect ourselves from being disappointed and hurt again from the one person we cherished and trusted the most in this world!

No one knows what is going to happen in the future. The way I see it is that I put all my trust into one person. That person has let me down time and time again. I do not want to go through another 5 or so years with him only to find out that we ended up back at square one. It took us 20 years to get to this point, I don't want it to be repeated. His intentions in the beginning were great, as they are now..but having lived the experience...will it turn out the same in another 20 years? I dont know how things will turn out..maybe we will find the relationship we had before we got married when the only thing that mattered to us was each other..maybe it won't. All I know is that can never happen if I can't find a way to trust him again. Right now at this moment...I don't know how to do that.


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## voivod

sprite...
what's the risk, that he returns to how he was??? you know how to handle that. you almost took that step. i see only upside. and i now am a man that many women would be proud to have at their side. i'll bet yours is too.


----------



## Sprite

Yes, he is a good man that many woman would probably love to have. But he didn't hurt them. I have to find a way to get the love back for him that I used to have....but right now I am not feeling it and haven't for a long time.

Thats is my risk. Staying with him out of obligation.


----------



## voivod

Sprite said:


> Yes, he is a good man that many woman would probably love to have. But he didn't hurt them. I have to find a way to get the love back for him that I used to have....but right now I am not feeling it and haven't for a long time.
> 
> Thats is my risk. Staying with him out of obligation.


you youself admitted at one time that you forgave him. you also admitted that communication was not your strong suit. he is doing all the right things. this is what i don't understand about our predicaments.

we finally "get it", do it right, then can't seem to get where we want to be...the flip side is we give up...how sad would _that_ be??


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> we finally "get it", do it right, then can't seem to get where we want to be...the flip side is we give up...how sad would _that_ be??


Yes, That is a perfect summary of my article Out of Sync.


----------



## Sprite

Yes, I did admit that I forgave him. But that doesn't mean I am any less happy about it. I am supposed to forgive him to move on right? The past is the past and it can not be changed, I understand this. But, it also gives us a learning curve for the future.

Beth held on to you for how long? And had the patience for you for that amount of time. I did the same thing with my husband for 15 years. How sad would that be if you guys couldn't have the same patience for the same amount of time? I feel that if my husband can't be patient with my healing process, then he doesn't really care about it. I am not saying that I am going to keep this going on for 15 years...thats just silly...I am just saying that we deserve the time and patience needed on your part to help US get through what we need to get through.

Just because we had one month of good, doesn't by any means mean that everything is back to normal. There is no normal any more.

You can see the upside and so can my husband because you are on the opposite end. You have given us much heartache and disappointment and now think because you are ready to fix it, we should be ok with it. Try putting the shoe on the other foot..put yourself in Beth's position. If you had a person that was supposed to be your best friend betray you basically...how easy would it be for you to forgive and forget? I would bet it wouldn't be instant and that it would take some time for you to trust that person again, let alone try to love them again the way you once did.


----------



## MarkTwain

Sprite- I have to be honest here, I would take only so much and then - kapow! I would be gone! Life is too short. I've read threads on here where people wait for 20 years. I would feel a chump if I did that.


----------



## voivod

mt-
and as you wrote:

"One of the reasons that the new behaviour was not appreciated by the requester is due to resentment."

and as i am trying to say...quit resenting us...we're trying!


----------



## MarkTwain

V-

In your case, I'm guessing it's a little different. Has she ever accused you of being arrogant, bossy and controlling?


----------



## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> V-
> 
> In your case, I'm guessing it's a little different. Has she ever accused you of being arrogant, bossy and controlling?


yes, bossy and controlling...arrogant too, but i didn't think she was using that term in the perjorative.

???why???


----------



## MarkTwain

Just a hunch but... I suspect she is wanting to be assured that your heart has softened.


----------



## MarkTwain

For instance... some people can be tough on others, but slow to say sorry.


----------



## Sprite

MarkTwain said:


> Sprite- I have to be honest here, I would take only so much and then - kapow! I would be gone! Life is too short. I've read threads on here where people wait for 20 years. I would feel a chump if I did that.


Exactly!

Great articles by the way. I was just reading some of them and they make total sense!


----------



## MarkTwain

Sprite said:


> Exactly!
> 
> Great articles by the way. I was just reading some of them and they make total sense!


Ahem... I was meaning that if I was in your husband's position I would only wait so long...


----------



## Sprite

MarkTwain said:


> Ahem... I was meaning that if I was in your husband's position I would only wait so long...


I know that! And that's why I say exactly! Why am I expected to wait so long for him, but it might be acceptable for HIM to call it quits?


----------



## MarkTwain

Sprite said:


> I know that! And that's why I say exactly! Why am I expected to wait so long for him, but it might be acceptable for HIM to call it quits?


Because the first 15 years was when you were both young and green. Now we are all mature people, we have not got such an excuse. I'm 42, I'm in a hurry.


----------



## Sprite

Hmm, I am 42 also, and this is part of my dilemma. I don't want to wait til Im 50 to see if the feelings or lack of feelings I have for him now will still be the same then.


----------



## MarkTwain

Sprite said:


> Hmm, I am 42 also, and this is part of my dilemma. I don't want to wait til Im 50 to see if the feelings or lack of feelings I have for him now will still be the same then.


Well my dear... If you thought there was a time limit, that might motivate you


----------



## brighteyes72

Mark,

I may have discovered a "time limit" as you put it and I am in a bit of a panic. My husband is quite a note-keeper and has written in his notebook "divorced (date of separation)". Now I'm not so sure I want a divorce, as I did once, or so I thought.

My husband has been a model man since we broke up. I don't have a complaint, other than maybe he tries too hard. He blew it with me over the years and he damned well knows it. So now, he's a new man. Maybe I'm suspect of his newfound behavior, but I'm having a time of it letting him off the hook. And now I see this "divorced" entry in his notebook and I'm having second thoughts!


----------



## voivod

Just returned from a wonderful sunday day trip to the mountains with beth and the kids...we went and looked at snow skulptures, walked the streets of this quaint little mountain town, went back to our campground, took pictures, had a packed lunch, got the truck stuck in a snow bank, laughed, smiled, had a great time. got back in time to see the end of the super bowl (wow!). okay, this was the most fun we've had in forever. beth related a story to me about our relationship and one of my flaws.

she said "i was afraid kara (oldest daughter) would come out black." her base of reasoning was that i "blamed her for things she couldn't control" and she dreamed that there was "something in my genetics" that made her be born black....bizarre, i know...her fear was i would blame her for it, either because of genetics or an affair.

but it gave me a chance to say that "dad took the heat for a lot of stuff in mom's head" and she said "that was 18 years ago, and i was so fragile."

i told her that all she ever had to do was tell me and i would have made the adjustment in myself. communicate! this is the first time i've ever heard this!!! i'm sure there are dozens of other instances inside her pretty little head. why won't she give me the benefit of the doubt???

anyway, back to our trip...
wouldn't you assume that she still wants to be together, at least in theory, based upon the activities yesterday? i'm kinda going through the blues right now and need a little pick me up.

oh, by the way brother in law and sister in law (mil's favorite) saw us in this little mountain town observing the ice skulptures. haha. wonder what mil's going to have to say about us being together AGAIN!!! can't wait for that shoe to drop.


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## draconis

Why look for the bad to happen?

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> Why look for the bad to happen?
> 
> draconis


bad? what bad? about the mother in law?

i'm just kinda saying she is as much to blame for beth's mental state as anything. we stopped at a city park on the way back. the park had some cool play toys...beth made a comment about how she never played on a particular toy. i said "really". kinda surprised. she said "chris, you know i never played as a kid." her mom was a slave-driving witch to beth. it really affected her. 

i asked her "why don't you hold her accountable?" she said "i just got over it." yeah, except for what it made her into. the woman i know today. the one that can't "get over" my mistakes.


----------



## voivod

i'm taking the good news one bit at a time...my boy reports to me that when he was playing guitar hero, mom was on the computer, he paused it and asked mom if she still loves daddy. mom told him yes.


----------



## draconis

voivod said:


> i'm taking the good news one bit at a time...my boy reports to me that when he was playing guitar hero, mom was on the computer, he paused it and asked mom if she still loves daddy. mom told him yes.


Of course she does other wise why do you think she'd still be around?

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> Of course she does other wise why do you think she'd still be around?
> 
> draconis


for awhile i thought maybe to save me some pain, but i don't think that's the answer drac...

she's truly enjoying the time we spend together, and not overdosing on it...she has the guts to say "no thanks" when i ask her to do something and she is too tired or has something else to do...kinda like she wanted it when we were "together"...

she's "managing" this relationship now the way she always wanted it, i think...

also still referring to me as her husband to people even when i'm not there...


----------



## voivod

ok. i'm obviously doing something wrong. we've been apart for too long, although the time we spend together is mutually pleasing. there seems to be no reason why this has to go on any longer. i am going to sign up for mort fertel's lone ranger course.

suggestions???


----------



## voivod

i've actually contemplated moving forward with divorce proceedings, sorta as a threat. you know that's the last thing i want. i've given ultimatums before, short term they didn't work, but once i was a step from being out the door, literally, and she relented and said "come back." i don't know what her reaction would be to this type of action, and that is truly scary. would i be crossing a threshhold that i couldn't return from or would i be forcing her to open her eyes?

major risk is still that she is currently contemplating reconciliation and i might upset that apple cart. but i'm tired.


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## Sprite

voivod said:


> i've actually contemplated moving forward with divorce proceedings, sorta as a threat. you know that's the last thing i want. i've given ultimatums before, short term they didn't work, but once i was a step from being out the door, literally, and she relented and said "come back." i don't know what her reaction would be to this type of action, and that is truly scary. would i be crossing a threshhold that i couldn't return from or would i be forcing her to open her eyes?
> 
> major risk is still that she is currently contemplating reconciliation and i might upset that apple cart. but i'm tired.


If you in your deepest part of your heart actually think that you have given this enough time...then go for it. BUT remember that you will have to suffer the consequences for the rest of your life should she decide to agree with you!!!!

I must say I am more than a little disappointed to hear you mention filing for divorce...sorta as a threat...do you honestly think bullying her into making a decision is going to make her let it float in your favor? I HIGHLY doubt it.

As far as you being tired..well, that is part of the rollercoaster that SHE dealt with for YEARS. To me you sound selfish today. Sorry, just calling it like I see it. This is a threshold from which you will never be able to return...no matter what the outcome will be.

And if I seem a little upset with you, its because I am. If Dan were to pull this card on me....I would be gone..no questions asked. If he can't invest even a QUARTER of the time I invested in him and this relationship, there would be no point...he is back to his selfish ways and I would gladly help him pack his bags!


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## voivod

Sprite said:


> If you in your deepest part of your heart actually think that you have given this enough time...then go for it. BUT remember that you will have to suffer the consequences for the rest of your life should she decide to agree with you!!!!
> 
> I must say I am more than a little disappointed to hear you mention filing for divorce...sorta as a threat...do you honestly think bullying her into making a decision is going to make her let it float in your favor? I HIGHLY doubt it.
> 
> As far as you being tired..well, that is part of the rollercoaster that SHE dealt with for YEARS. To me you sound selfish today. Sorry, just calling it like I see it. This is a threshold from which you will never be able to return...no matter what the outcome will be.
> 
> And if I seem a little upset with you, its because I am. If Dan were to pull this card on me....I would be gone..no questions asked. If he can't invest even a QUARTER of the time I invested in him and this relationship, there would be no point...he is back to his selfish ways and I would gladly help him pack his bags!


wow!
first off, it's ok that you're mad. and i understand the point. i don't want to cross that threshold to never be able to come back. but i am tired. maybe that's saying i understand beth too.

_the walls that she used as protection won't let her see the improvements i'm making._ does that make sense?

i'm not thinking real clear right now. simply put: i'm not thinking. i see that as i read your reply sprite.

but i don't want to be measured by the _length_ of time that i'm investing versus beth, more the amount of _effort_ i'm putting forth.

if i could just have every day be like sunday, but she retreats behind those walls almost every time.

she told me the walls came down when i had my stroke. somehow, they went back up. now, up, then down, then she sees herself as vulnerable, so the go back up. repeat process. i don't know what i'm saying. do you understand?


----------



## MarkTwain

Sprite said:


> So now you ask why can't I just accept the fact that he is trying to make me happy now? Well, to be totally honest....I don't want it from him now. I wanted it years ago, but I wasn't important enough to him then for him to give me any little thing. I'm not talking about material things, they don't matter. I have gotten so used to him NOT being around that I began to enjoy it. I can not accpet what he is doing to make me happy now because it does not feel genuine. It feels like he is doing it to save his own ass because he doesn't want to be alone. It feels to me like a game...he has always known how to get his way, and he is doing just that now.


Either you are right about this or you are wrong. If you are wrong, you condemn yourself and him. If you are right - get out now!


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## draconis

voivod said:


> i've actually contemplated moving forward with divorce proceedings, sorta as a threat. you know that's the last thing i want. i've given ultimatums before, short term they didn't work, but once i was a step from being out the door, literally, and she relented and said "come back." i don't know what her reaction would be to this type of action, and that is truly scary. would i be crossing a threshhold that i couldn't return from or would i be forcing her to open her eyes?
> 
> major risk is still that she is currently contemplating reconciliation and i might upset that apple cart. but i'm tired.


Are you crazy?!?

I have said it would take time, even up to a year. You can ruin everything in one breath.

If you are that down than communicate with her and ask her where you two are at, and what she sees as the future and what she wants to see from you.

It is much better to communicate that have a 50/50 threat and her still have resentment even if she does come back to you. You will have fixd nothing.

draconis


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## voivod

draconis said:


> Are you crazy?!?
> 
> draconis


yeah, i guess i am crazy, or at least getting there.


----------



## lostluv

voivod said:


> i've actually contemplated moving forward with divorce proceedings, sorta as a threat. you know that's the last thing i want. i've given ultimatums before, short term they didn't work, but once i was a step from being out the door, literally, and she relented and said "come back." i don't know what her reaction would be to this type of action, and that is truly scary. would i be crossing a threshhold that i couldn't return from or would i be forcing her to open her eyes?
> 
> major risk is still that she is currently contemplating reconciliation and i might upset that apple cart. but i'm tired.


Just a thought here...

Could she, or would she, percieve this as mot only a threat but also as attempt by you to return to controlling her? I would hate for her to see it as the first step in you returning to your former personality. If you are at a point where you are too frustrated to continue this then maybe it is time to ask her for a heart to heart talk. Perhaps tell her that you need to express how you feel and get her feedback. Then do so in a manner that promotes you as the person you have become and that you want her to see instead of someone who is trying to take control and give ultimatums.

...Just a thought.


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## voivod

lostluv said:


> Just a thought here...
> 
> Could she, or would she, percieve this as mot only a threat but also as attempt by you to return to controlling her? I would hate for her to see it as the first step in you returning to your former personality.
> ...Just a thought.


yes, that is the same thing my counselor is saying, over and over.


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## lostluv

What about the talking with her part? Do you think the two of you are in a good enough place with each other that you could attempt it?


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## voivod

lostluv said:


> What about the talking with her part? Do you think the two of you are in a good enough place with each other that you could attempt it?


she still maintains a pretty militant, no, militant is the wrong word...she enjoys the time we spend together, just shows little in the way of openness toward getting back together... attitude towards us...like i said earlier...walls up, walls down, walls up, walls down...

the counselor thinks me asking to talk about "us" would put me in a "pushy" position with her. advises against it, says "continue to cultivate the friendship, the love relationship will return."

what do you think?


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## lostluv

What if you didn't talk about "us" what if you talked about "me"? It's kinda like the idea that everyone uses for the women to talk to thier husbands about problems without being accusatory.

Could you tell her that you need someone to talk to and confide in and that you would like that person to be her? Then tell her about your concerns of wanting to be patient and loving but that internally you feel you are not doing all that great. Ask her how she feels about how you have been and if she is pleased with it. You don't have to come out and say "I need to know where we stand" you can talk and ask other questions that will give you the ability to assess that more clearly on your own. 

You could also ask her if there is anything that she wants to talk about but is unsure of how or when to bring it up. Reassure her that you are not seeking decission, you just need to chat.

I guess what I am saying is maybe if you can figure out how to talk to her as a friend about this then it will be less "pushy".


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## voivod

lostluv said:


> What if you didn't talk about "us" what if you talked about "me"? It's kinda like the idea that everyone uses for the women to talk to thier husbands about problems without being accusatory.
> 
> Could you tell her that you need someone to talk to and confide in and that you would like that person to be her? Then tell her about your concerns of wanting to be patient and loving but that internally you feel you are not doing all that great. Ask her how she feels about how you have been and if she is pleased with it. You don't have to come out and say "I need to know where we stand" you can talk and ask other questions that will give you the ability to assess that more clearly on your own.
> 
> You could also ask her if there is anything that she wants to talk about but is unsure of how or when to bring it up. Reassure her that you are not seeking decission, you just need to chat.
> 
> I guess what I am saying is maybe if you can figure out how to talk to her as a friend about this then it will be less "pushy".


this is smart...relationship genius!!!

i'll give it a try...

thanks.


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## voivod

hey by the way... i was on another forum too, looking for different opinions and such, and got flamed by a member there for a whole lotta things that were bogus. anyway, to repeat an earlier poster on another section of this forum..thank you all for your help...there is no magic key to solve this and i know that, but if you had it, you'd provide it. thank you tam!


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## Sprite

voivod said:


> wow!
> first off, it's ok that you're mad. and i understand the point. i don't want to cross that threshold to never be able to come back. but i am tired. maybe that's saying i understand beth too.
> 
> _the walls that she used as protection won't let her see the improvements i'm making._ does that make sense?*That makes total sense!*
> 
> i'm not thinking real clear right now. simply put: i'm not thinking. i see that as i read your reply sprite.*good, and thats ok, you will go through moments of that, as long as you dont act on your thoughts at these times, you will be ok*
> 
> but i don't want to be measured by the _length_ of time that i'm investing versus beth, more the amount of _effort_ i'm putting forth.*From our standpoint, you have a lot of catching up to do wether it is time or effort, both are required here. In the end she may thank you for both, but she will appreciate the effort more than the time because she doesn't know how much time it will take, but she has an idea of what effort is needed.*
> 
> if i could just have every day be like sunday, but she retreats behind those walls almost every time.
> 
> she told me the walls came down when i had my stroke. *mainly because there was a NEED..you needed her to be strong and help you, that's what we do*somehow, they went back up. now, up, then down, then she sees herself as vulnerable, so the go back up. repeat process. i don't know what i'm saying. do you understand?


*I completely understand!*


I am truely sorry I can not explain the wall thing in a term anyone can understand unless they have it themselves. It is like it pops up on its own sometimes and has a mind of its own. Almost like a second personality kind of thing. We don't always have control of it and we don't always have a say in when we need to use it or not. It's like breathing...we don't conciously do it, but we need it to live. The wall is there because our hearts and souls still need to be protected, so it allows itself to come into play for us. Even tho we may not consiously know we need it or want it to come up, a deeper part of us feels the need to protect ourselves, so it does its job and shows up. Can you understand that?

I find that my wall comes up most often when something Dan says or does takes me to a memory of before and it reminds me of what caused all the hurt and neglect in the first place. I can give you a good example here...we have been talking about starting a business(one of the things we intended to do when we first got married), he tells me he wants me to own it and run it and he will just be my employee because he doesn't ever want to tell me what to do again. So, on a day when we were discussing recipes(we were leaning towards a restaurant), I had an idea of one, but didn't know how the flavors would work together, so I suggested we go to the grocery store and buy the ingredients and make it for dinner and try it. He liked the idea too, and was all for it, he even encouraged my creativity about it, UNTIL I mentioned I wanted to go to the store to get the ingredients. He made excuses why not to go(none of them were valid resaons, they were all personal reasons of his)....this is what brought me back in time. This is what he used to do before. Was this a sign that the old Dan was returning? Probably not, but I saw a glimpse of him and will NOT allow myself to go back there, so I shut him out again and the wall showed up. I felt like I was back at square one!

I have so many examples, but will just give you that one. But a "look" will bring back memories too. I think the best way to explain what we are going through is to let you know that we are trying to deprogram ourselves. We have been programmed by you for so many years, that it is taking us a long time to see things in a new light. It is like anything else you learn, you are taught to do it "this way" and when a new method comes out, we have a hard time learning the "new way". Does that make sense? Even tho we may have been very open minded in the past about change, we have been taught that it only lasts a short time. so, why learn the new method when in a year or so the old method will come back into play. We feel we would have learned and accepted the new method for nothing.

I have to tell you, I was on the edge of loosing faith in you yesterday after your post about divorce..I am so happy you thought it through! I understand your frustration, believe me I do, I see it everyday in Dan. I will pray for you to find some more patience.

I HIGHLY suggest you take lostluvs advice and sit Beth down and just talk to her. Let her vent her frustrations, but don't offer her solutions. I didnt really start opening up to Dan until he sat me down and started telling me some of his inner most feelings about us and our situation. Sit her down once, then give it more time before you do it again. Dan wanted to talk so much that I started dreading when he called me or came hoome because I knew he was going to "want to talk". Sometimes we made more progress just by being ourselves and saying nothing. Talking too much can become overwhelming and makes us shut down again. Again I cant explain other than to say our brains need a break from time to time. Dan's biggest problem has been when things start going good, he expects it to keep going good. This doesn't happen. So then he goes into his panic mode and gets all moody, depressed, and wants to talk all the time. Dammit, I am dealing with enough of my own crap to have to put it aside to boost him up again. But this is what we do because we are women. This has been an especially rough week for us because he finally came to the conclusion that my happiness may not be with him. It finally hit him, and he didn't know how to handle it. Be ready for when this feeling pops up for you, it will be a very emotional time. It doesn't mean that the feeling is right, but that possibility is there.

If you have not told her exactly how you feel, now is the time. If you open up to her as a friend, she may do the same with you, and you will probably learn something about her that you didnt know before.

Best of luck to you Voi!!!


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## voivod

talking is at times overwhelming to beth. twice now we've begun talking about relationship stuff, and twice she's stopped me. once at the beginning of the "talk" she said "we're not having this conversation now" and once more recently "it's not time to talk about this."

just tell me you see a glimmer of hope. us guys want to know that.


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## Sprite

If your lines of communication have not been opened in the past and 2 sided, it will take her a LONG time to accept the fact that they can be now. Instead of trying to talk about your relationship, talk about something that will get her to open up on a topic that bothered her in the past.

You can try just talking to her. Open the conversation with something like...."hey, I know you don't want to talk and you don't have to respond, but I felt I had to tell you this..." and then continue on with a feeling you have. But try not to make that feeling anything too demanding. 

Have you told her about this forum? If you have, you can ask her for an opinion on someones post that you may not understand. Ask her what she thinks about it. Or, pick a current event in the news that you know you and Beth would have different views on. Bring that up. She won't be able to have a "relationship" conversation with you until she knows it is possible without being one sided. Let her tell her side of how she sees things, and agree with her on a point that you might not normally agree with her about. Or simply agree to disagree, but don't make an arguement about it or dont make it a point to make her see your side. If she can see you allowing the conversation to be 2 sided, it makes a big difference. That doesnt mean she is going to turn it around tomorrow and be able to talk openly with you about your relationship. But if you give her opportunities to voice her opinion and you are accepting of them, it will go a long way.

There is a glimmer of hope, and I am not just telling you that cuz you asked us to. SHE isn't going to tell you that tho. Getting her to open up is going to be a tough one, but you have to keep at it...on topics that don't involve the relationship.


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## voivod

i think beth thinks the communication was one-sided, and as i look back in regret, i think she is correct. i always had to be right. i hate that trait in me now.

i am going to engage in conversation that will help her to feel free about airing out her opinion. that's a great idea. the two best ideas from this forum that i've taken away recently both have to do with communication. no secret that ours sucked.

thank you sprite and lostluv. and hey, sprite...you seemed so close to a solution with dan...what's going on? i want you guys to succeed!


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## lostluv

voivod said:


> this is smart...relationship genius!!!
> 
> i'll give it a try...
> 
> thanks.


I hope it works for you! Communication and patience usually will go far, keep us posted. :smthumbup:


----------



## Sprite

voivod said:


> i think beth thinks the communication was one-sided, and as i look back in regret, i think she is correct. i always had to be right. i hate that trait in me now.
> 
> i am going to engage in conversation that will help her to feel free about airing out her opinion. that's a great idea. the two best ideas from this forum that i've taken away recently both have to do with communication. no secret that ours sucked.
> 
> thank you sprite and lostluv. and hey, sprite...you seemed so close to a solution with dan...what's going on? i want you guys to succeed!


First off I was trying to force my feelings upon myself. Thats what went wrong. I was trying to force myself to fall back in love with him and act as thou everything would be fine. That and the fact that I had too many desicions I was trying to make at the same time(big life changing desicions, like moving out of state, starting a business or starting a horse farm). They all felt like they were an attempt to keep me right under his thumb as he was trying to offer me everything we talked about doing at the beginning of our marriage. And the fact that he was "letting" me make the final decision for each one of them. So, in knowing how things have alwasy been, I fetl if I made the wrong decision....it would be all my fault if it was the wrong one. I got way overwhelmed with everything and just shut down. I didnt want this decision to be one where we made this big change to try to "fix" a situation, only to find ourselves in the SAME situation, just in a new town. Kind of like when a marriage is shakey and they think having a baby will "fix" it. It only makes it worse.

A comment I made to a friend the other day kind of shocked me, and I never really thought about it until now. I told her "living with Dan is like living with my step mother all over again". I absolutely despise my step mother. So, I have been reading alot lately about some deeper issues I may have within myself that I was not aware of. I used to have recurring dreams of my step mother kidnapping me and my kids, seperating us so I couldnt see them, leaving me locked up in her house with no phone or any means of communication to the outside world. In one of those dreams I did manage to call Dan, but he wanted nothing to do with me and would not come get me so I could find my kids again. These dreams stopped when she passed away several years ago. I thought nothing about them since. This is NOT something I can bring up to Dan because he KNOWS how much I despise her. Not as the epitamy of the "evil step mother" but for the type of person she was. People like that have no room in my world, and I think its very bizzar that I ended up marrying someone just like her(to an extend...Dan isnt nearly as bad a person as she was).

So my own defenses kicked in, and here I sit happily behind my wall right now.


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## voivod

Sprite said:


> So my own defenses kicked in, and here I sit happily behind my wall right now.


and you *know* how frustrating that can be, with us sitting on this side of the wall, being all good and everything. we're saying "hey, i'm cool, you're cool, just come on out here. i wanna play."

it's kinda how i feel every night, sitting there on the loves seat, beth is within arms reach, but she's still not settling into my arms like she used to do. i can't/won't hurt her, but there's only one way she'll find that out.

pleasant details: beth is finding ways to be around lately...bringing dinner over a couple of nights ago...having my boy call to bring a blanket over, etc. kinda nice i think.


----------



## Sprite

That sound very nice voi, and I am sorry we put up those deffenses. I know your frustration.

All I can tell you is to keep reminding Beth that you NEVER want to hurt her ever again. Eventually she will start believing it, and it is nice to hear. Remind her that you want her to be totally honest with you, even if she thinks it will hurt your feelings. Let her know that you are a big boy and can handle them now.

I did have the guts to tell Dan about how he is much like my step mother..this hurt him immensly, but I felt great for revealing that to him. He understood and actually explained to me how it made me feel, and exactly what he did to make it that way. 

Just what do you think is the one way she will find out you can't/won't hurt her? Im curious as to what your thinkng is on this.


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## voivod

Sprite said:


> Just what do you think is the one way she will find out you can't/won't hurt her? Im curious as to what your thinkng is on this.


y'know sprite, i brought that up once. i think if she would allow herself to be put in a situation that reminded her of i time when she was hurt, and it didn't repeat itself.

like...one time when we were in the bahamas, we had a really bad one way blowout. i acted like a f-ing jerk. now she doesn't ever want to go back there. same thing in vegas one time. i invited her to go weith me last summer...she said "if you'll remember, i didn't have such a great time the last time we went there." and she declined my invitation.

if she would return to the "scene of the crime" and have a good time, like we've done so many times before...i don't know, maybe the safe feeling would come back. as i look back, i was such a stupid jerk...i get it...god what a fool, momentarily, but i know it sucked for her.


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## draconis

Have you discussed your feelings and your self discovery with her at all?

draconis


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## Sprite

Drac is right. I think you neeed to discuss some of these things with her. She may not want to discuss it, but the more you own up to how you messed things up in the past, the eaiser it will be for her to see that you truelly are sorry and don't EVER plan on doing that again. Dan has had such a clear vision of things, just like you are having. He is actually remembering things he used to say and specific instances of when he treated me badly. He didn't really remember anything, he mentally blocked it out for some reason. But, now that HE is remembering, I KNOW he understands what he did to me and his boys. Up until these past couple weeks he was depending on ME telling him the things he did wrong, but now that HE remembers them, it makes me feel much MUCH better because I KNOW it isn't just me being a nag. He cries at some of the things he did when he remembers them...especially when he threatened me with never seeing my kids again..that killed him..he can't believe he ever did that. When he can cry about those things, and actually admit he did those things, it does more for me, it does more for US. We are still trying to get used to the new him, and there are moments when he says something or gives a certain look that will take us back in time. It isnt just happening to me(I thought it was), but it happens to my kids too. We were playing an awesomely fun game of monopoly the other night(something we used to have to BEG for....and he still never played with us) and my oldest son piped up and said "oh Dad...I forgot to talk to my teacher again today, I am so sorry"..and he kind of cowarded away from Dad after he said it. Dan was so put off by this that he wanted to cry..but he knew that his reactions in the past taught my son that he should be scared of Dad. He simply told my son "I am so sorry I ever made you afraid of me...its ok you didnt talk to your teacher, you can talk to her next week". This insident made my son feel so much better because he then realized that he put his Dad in a situation where he would have gone off the handle before...but he didn't this time. My son smiled and I know he thinks everything will be ok as far as him and Dad. 

So, when ever you find yourself in that situation where they think you are going to act a certain way because of how you USED to handle things, you have to own up to it, apologize, let them know you understand that it is your fault and that you understand you did this to them. That goes a long way in our healing process.

What you need to do is NOT go back to those places...find new ones. I honestly thought you were thinking of intimate contact at first, that's why I asked. I was ready to go off the handle on you about that one, but you have shown me you are growing and that you are really honestly and truelly "getting it". You can go back to the scene of the crime, but it has to be a new scene. Make new memories, don't try to fix past ones. Trying to fix past ones and returning to past places starts us out on the negative right away before we even get there. Not a good start for you when you are trying to prove anything to her. Is there some place that she has always wanted to go to, but never could? Now might not be the time to take her there tho..save that one for when you 2 are on the same page again, it will mean so much more to both of you. Is there something that she has been wanting to try or do that you didn't support her on? Is there something you 2 used to do that you havent since you got married? What about a concert she may be wanting to go to? Any little thing, most of the things we feel we missed out on in the past are little things that don't add up to much until you put them all together.

Going off the knowledge of MY relationship, you have to find a way to allow her to open up to you and be able to discuss things openly. You won't truely understand what those things she feels she missed out on are, until she can do that with you. So for the time being, you are just going to have to pay attention to what she says or what she has said in the past that you didnt pick up on. Pick up on it now....this shows her that even tho you seemed like you were not listening to her, you really were, but in your own back of the mind kind of way. 

Have you discussed Valentines Day with her? I know this sounds odd that you should have to discuss it, but you don't want to do something that YOU want to do, because it might not be what SHE wants. My husband was scared about Vday coming up, and wanted to plan a nice romantic dinner with just the 2 of us, BUT, he didn't want to pressure me into anything, so he ASKED what WE are going to do. I told him that I am not in the frame of mind to do a typical romantic Vday thing, so we decided to just take the boys out to a nice dinner with us. He completely understood that last week wehn we talked about it, but by last night he forgot. Its not that he forgot really, he was hoping for more...but when he asked me(and this was so sweet cuz it was like he was asking me out on a date) if I would go to dinner with him, I had to remind him of our talk last week and what WE had already decided to do. He then informed me(in a dog with his tail tucked between his legs kind of look) that he was going to have to take that pink teddy back that he bought me....lmao..he was joking, but it made it easier to deal with. Instead of him getting upset that he didn't get his way, he joked about it, but is ok with it. See, we are both growing in the same direction for once. He has shown me that I CAN open up and talk to him and tell him like it is without him getting upset or sideways. In the past I would have just taken it as....he forgot, or he doesnt want his boys around...but THIS time, I was able to remind him, and he DIDNT get sideways, it felt GREAT!!!! 

One of the major things we discussed this past week was how I have been so overwhelmed with all these decisions he is "allowing" me to make on my own. I told him exactly how i feel and that if I make the wrong choice, I don't want it to be all my fault. So, he took that as his que to tell me what he thougth about everything without telling me what to do about it. By discussing it together, we found we are both on the same page. He gave me his thoughts, and I gave him mine, and we both came to the same conclusion. That is that us moving out of state will benefit everyone. We put every twist on it that we could. We left the boys out of the mix and discussed what it would do for or to US..then we left US out of the equation and discussed what it would do for the boys. It came down to being a win win situation. I had no idea he felt about this house we are in now, the same way I do....too many bad memories. I look around this house and see things that were supposed to get done, or things that were a battle but I still had to settle for whatever it was that he felt was good enough.(i have a few examples but i wont put them here...too long to explain) 

It will take Beth a long time to be able to open up with you and be as blunt and to the point as you may need her to be to get her point across....but there is hope that it can get there. It is just going to take time on her part, and she needs to be able to feel enough trust in you to be able to do that. Take baby steps. Have you opened up a topic of conversation to her that you KNOW you will have different view points? Did you let her voice her opinion without condemning her? Did you agree with her on at least one of her points of view? Trust me, this goes a LONG way in us finding a little bit of self esteem we have been missing. It helps us to become stronger and realize that we arent as "stupid" as we have felt in the past. I know she is not stupid and neither am I, its just a general term I used!

You have to be honest with her and tell her exactly how you feel. We are not mind readers either, and we need to be told what you think and feel. You will learn a LOT about each other in this process. Do you apologize to her on a regular basis? If we hear it enough times, we will begin to believe it. Dan does that a LOT. He will see my facial expression change and at that moment he KNOWS I went back to the past....he immediately apologizes for being like that in the past and assures me he does not have the same intentions this time, and tells me he doesnt mean it the same way he used to. He will then explain to me exactly what it is that he meant. He is not real good at relaying his thoughts into words, so it takes him some time to get to his exact point, but when he can do taht, it shows me that he does understand, and he will NEVER take me back to that place ever again. 

I am sorry, my thoughts seem to keep jumping around this morning, so to summarize.....you need to find a way to

1) get her to open up by openeing topics of conversation that will allow her to have a different view point than your own...allow her to express them without telling her she is wrong or without pushing YOUR view points on her...this goes BIG for self worth/esteem

2) apologize immediately when you see her go back in time..it may take you a day or 2 to notice that this happened, but dont hesitate to apologize the moment you notice it....if this doesnt happen, apologize anyways...before you say good night for the day...apologize for the way you treated her in the past, and assure her you will NEVER do that to her EVER again....it assures us that you understand when we can hear you say it outloud

3) be totally honest with her in your feelings. Now is not the time to hide anything....even though you may think she doesnt want to hear it...tell her anyways, but don't expect a response

4) find an interest that SHE has and make it a better experience for her...don't take her to the past, find something new or something she already has that you can build on to make it easier or more comfortable/fun for her to do. You say she likes scrapbooking....is there a tool or piece of equipment that will make it easier or put some new fun into it?(i used to scrapbook so if you need some ideas here, just ask) maybe this would be as simple as YOU sitting down with her and let her teach you a little about it, ask her if you can do a page...or start your own book with her. If we can teach you something we know, it too goes along way in the self worth/esteem department 

Good luck....oh..and one more thing...STOP OVER ANALYZING....I think this is one of the biggest issues you guys have. Allow her to have a "bad day" and just leave it at that...don't try to figure out why or what you did...chances are its nothing, just let it pass, but be there for her.


----------



## voivod

draconis said:


> Have you discussed your feelings and your self discovery with her at all?
> 
> draconis


yeah, drac, about something off the wall tonight. you'd have laughed. i wore some older work clothes to work tonight. something i haven't worn for like *eight years* the pants fit very well, but a little tight on the waist. remember i have lost over 100 pounds. now understand, i wasn't always a lard ass through that fat period. i've been blessed/cursed with a frame that carries weight well. anyway, i was telling beth about the funny thing that happened to get me to try on these _skinny clothes_ and i said "and my shoes size is even smaller. beth said "because your _feet were fat_. i said yeah, but why didn't you tell me about that back then. she went on about how my feelings would have been hurt if she'd have said something like that.

so i said "you probably could have _told me_, you know, communicated that."

she said, "would you have listened?"

"no," i said. "probably not. because i wasn't much of a listener back then."

and off we went. the best _conversation_ that we've had forever! got done talking about a half hour ago. talked right up to the front door, so much like the old days of dating. tonight was a good night. for that.

also, bought her a vermont teddy bear for valentines day. had it delivered to her work. i didn't make a big production out of asking her if she liked it. but she did. tomorrow, good day, kids, wife, movie...


----------



## Sportsman

voivod said:


> yeah, drac, about something off the wall tonight. you'd have laughed. i wore some older work clothes to work tonight. something i haven't worn for like *eight years* the pants fit very well, but a little tight on the waist. remember i have lost over 100 pounds. now understand, i wasn't always a lard ass through that fat period. i've been blessed/cursed with a frame that carries weight well. anyway, i was telling beth about the funny thing that happened to get me to try on these _skinny clothes_ and i said "and my shoes size is even smaller. beth said "because your _feet were fat_. i said yeah, but why didn't you tell me about that back then. she went on about how my feelings would have been hurt if she'd have said something like that.
> 
> so i said "you probably could have _told me_, you know, communicated that."
> 
> she said, "would you have listened?"
> 
> "no," i said. "probably not. because i wasn't much of a listener back then."
> 
> and off we went. the best _conversation_ that we've had forever! got done talking about a half hour ago. talked right up to the front door, so much like the old days of dating. tonight was a good night. for that.
> 
> also, bought her a vermont teddy bear for valentines day. had it delivered to her work. i didn't make a big production out of asking her if she liked it. but she did. tomorrow, good day, kids, wife, movie...


Brother,
It sounds like you are on the right track but my advice is be careful. My wife will send me a text or say or do something that reminds me of old wife and the next minute I think I am in the room with the wicked witch of the west. I swear its like a light switch. Either way for me, have fun and have a good day I would just keep a bit of a guard up....


----------



## voivod

Sportsman said:


> Brother,
> It sounds like you are on the right track but my advice is be careful. My wife will send me a text or say or do something that reminds me of old wife and the next minute I think I am in the room with the wicked witch of the west. I swear its like a light switch. Either way for me, have fun and have a good day I would just keep a bit of a guard up....


sportsman--

i hear ya, but my wife goes back and forth now between very accomodating and "leaping" at the chance to hang together and passing on the opportunity. last night she was cool. i asked if i waas getting off work too late and she didn't care at all that is was 11pm. tonight she politely begged out. that's okay. i think she has feelings in her heart that she is battling with, with this being valentines day. by the way, i got her a vermont teddy bear and a single vased red rose. she knows buddy, that's my point.


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## Sprite

That conversation was great voi. Did she open up enough to tell you something you DIDNT know she felt? If not its ok too. But that was a great start, and as long as you are honest with her, she will be honest with you.

You are absolutely right when you say she has feelings in her heart she is battling with. But, the battle isn't just in her heart, it's in her head too. Her head and heart are battling with each other. Her heart probably wants to just let go and be with you again, but her head won't allow it.


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## MarkTwain

Voi- Can I pre-book post #1000 on this thread?


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> Voi- Can I pre-book post #1000 on this thread?


yes mark. if #1000 is congratulatory.

i'm backing off posting in this thread. i tend to wear my heart on my sleeve and post what's on my mind at the time. right now, we're doing okay. beth calls me or we meet after work and talk about the day. tv some nights, a movie some nights, some nights nothing. but i think we're doing okay.

she kept the valentines vermont teddy bear i had delivered to her at work. it sits on her desk. her friends all get to see that there and i'm sure she is proud to have a gift she can display.

my co-workers (hardened car sales guys) all think i should throw down an ultimatum. i don't think that's best. one guy who i work with (not a hardened car sales guy) keeps saying things are going fine, just take it as it comes.

anyways, thanks for coming along on this journey with me.


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## MarkTwain

But how is the flirting going?


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> But how is the flirting going?


oh, the flirting...

okay...

we're both pretty intelligent people. so flirting can come from coy conversation to body language to any number of other things.

i flirt covertly almost constantly. beth seems to take it well. she gave me a comment the other day when i flipped the switch a little. she said "things thaty make you go hmmm." she was kinda saying "what are you making such a big deal of my body?" when, in fact, i was. made me realize that there's a lot of flirting going on between us. hmmm...

ADDED OTHER THOUGHTS: this time now is being so productive in communication that i'm not putting such an emphasis on being flirtatious. example...beth called last night as soon as she got off work to confide in me some things that are going on at work that she needed advice on. same thing about 30 minutes ago. she's opening up with communication. i'm glad she's asking me, showing some trust(?) i think that's good, so i'm not going full court press on the flirtiness.


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## MarkTwain

Well when you're ready, you need to do plenty of touching and cuddles.


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## voivod

Sprite said:


> That conversation was great voi. Did she open up enough to tell you something you DIDNT know she felt? If not its ok too. But that was a great start, and as long as you are honest with her, she will be honest with you.
> 
> You are absolutely right when you say she has feelings in her heart she is battling with. But, the battle isn't just in her heart, it's in her head too. Her head and heart are battling with each other. Her heart probably wants to just let go and be with you again, but her head won't allow it.


sprite--

she opened up and told me things i never figured she'd tell me. does that help?

maybe it's because i wear my heart on my sleeve...but how come she won't just listen to her heart? i know in her heart she feels it. it shows _every time were together_.


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## Sportsman

I am happy that things are getting better for you, its nice to hear a happy story of two hearts coming together instead of divorce. Hopefully the trend continues for you and I will hope and pray that my situation takes a positive turn.


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## voivod

some things give me hope, but the time itself grinds me down...we exchanged some cutesy texts yesterday. one was about her work. i told her not to let "them" get her down, because she is the best. she took that well, and was one of them that got a cutesy reply at like 5 in the morning.

by the same token, a mutual friend texted me and said "she loves u. can you work things out?" gosh, i can try, but isn't that what i'm trying to do?

i'm staying home from work today, mostly because i'm freakin' depressed/tired/spent. i need a day to hide and take care of some things.

hanging in there.


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## voivod

Sprite said:


> That conversation was great voi. Did she open up enough to tell you something you DIDNT know she felt? If not its ok too. But that was a great start, and as long as you are honest with her, she will be honest with you.
> 
> You are absolutely right when you say she has feelings in her heart she is battling with. But, the battle isn't just in her heart, it's in her head too. Her head and heart are battling with each other. Her heart probably wants to just let go and be with you again, but her head won't allow it.


sprite--
we talked tonight about the "walls"...

she said "no way" when i said "if you'd let you walls down you'd see that i have changed."

"20 years for 6 months???" she said. "no way."

next conversation will be easier to have. she gave me information that shed some light on my situation. i'll check back in tomorrow night.


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> But how is the flirting going?


mark twain--

yesterday morning the perfect scenario came up for a repeat of a classic flirty move from our beginning.

beth used my bank account to pay her cell phone bill by mistake. so she told me about it and i said "no problem, we can find a way that you can work it off." that was a line i used early in our relationship as sexual implication. but she just gave me a mock shocked "what." i don't think she took it very well.

kinda makes me think backing off is the thing to do.


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## Sprite

Sounds like you are well on your way to really working this out. But it will still take time, sorry I know you don't want to hear that. 

Her telling you things you didn't already know is a very VERY good thing. It means she is more comfortable with herself that she can open up to you. Gradually these things will become more and more and you will find yourself learning new things about each other. You would think after 20 years you already know someone, but when you can wear your heart on your sleeve and be totally honest with her, she will eventually respond the same way. 

I can totally understand her response to you asking her if she would let down the walls....the simple answer is that she doesn't trust her own heart. She let her heart lead her before, and look where it got her. She doesn't want to go down that same path no matter how much she loves you. 6 months does NOT make up for the past 20 years, no matter how much you think it does. Look at it this way...you have been doing all the hard work for the past 6 months right? Who did all the hard work in the relationship for the first 20 years? I'll lay bets it wasn't you. You have a lot of catching up to do.

I am not saying you need to do more, you just need to remain consistant. Keep being who you are today. Keep making her feel special and loved every chance you get. And what ever you do..DO NOT give up on her. I have heard so many stories of men going through this same thing, but then they get to a certain point where they get tired of trying so hard and give up and leave. I know you don't want to be like that! If she was going to give up on you, she would have done it already, don't ever forget that!!!

I don't think Beth was upset at your comment about "working it off" as much as she was surprised and didn't quite know how she should respond to it. She probably wasn't expecting it, she probably enjoyed it, but she didn't want you to get the wrong impression if she responded in the usual manner, so she just shrugged it off.

Have you ever listened to the words of the song Stupid Boy by Keith Urban? Dan uses this as his theme song and to remind himself of what he has done to us in the past. When he forgets or can't understand the damage he has done, he plays it to keep himself in check. He also lets me know that that stupid boy is(was) him. It helps me know that he understands my point of view.


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## voivod

sprite--

right you are...6 months does NOT make up for 20 years...although her use of hyperbole is not lost on me...it's been 9 months and 16 years...but i understand the point.

she IS special and i love her so much...and i WILL NOT give up...why though, why will she not test herself...let the walls down. if it doesnt work, she can always put it back up.


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## voivod

hey there...it's been awhile...

we spent friday night together, real quiet, uneventful night. the kids were away and it was just us...very peaceful...

a friend of mine who i think is pretty smart gave me some advice...he said it's about time to make beth know that i really do appreciate all the things she has done for me and the kids...he suggested a plant delivered to her work with a "thank you i appreciate you" note...i'm gonna do that...

then another family friend has been telling me lately "she loves you dude, just give her the time she needs. you don't have the right to decide for her how long it should take to heal." so i've heard that before...i'm gonna go that route.

the symbolic notes she wrote in her scrapbook have been edited in favor of our marriage, so i'm not as uptight about that.

patience (as you know) has not been my strong suit...i'm trying...anyway...we've been apart more than together lately. i miss her very much.


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## in a daze

first of all, a big congrats. your thread is what i keep reading when my patience runs this( which is daily). i hope things continue to progress as i see you have put in the time and effort. i will continue to read along, picking up tips along the way and hopefully they wiull make a difference in my situation as our wives are very similar. GL


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## voivod

in a daze said:


> first of all, a big congrats. your thread is what i keep reading when my patience runs this( which is daily). i hope things continue to progress as i see you have put in the time and effort. i will continue to read along, picking up tips along the way and hopefully they wiull make a difference in my situation as our wives are very similar. GL


daze--

good luck to you...if your wife truly is like mine, you will do many things to improve and receive little positive feedback, except her willingness to spend time with you (which is what i get back). so you may feel a little underappreciated from time to time.
you mention patience...it takes Job's patience, only because we may never realize what damage we did along the way. in fact, we may not believe that we did the bad things that led to this. i highly doubt that i am 100% responsible for my wifes attitude. i think she may be suffering some kind of organic depression, but until she deals with that, it's all on me.

regardless, the steps we make will make us better men for our wives when this nightmare is over. good luck to you.


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## voivod

i have purposefully been staying away for a few days...trying to get perspective on my marriage and where it is right now...

i admit i am utterly confused at where we are and why. maybe it's my ignorance. we spend saturday night together, then sunday she cannot make time to sit down and watch a movie. i'm just looking for anything to seem like she's accepting my efforts. you might say my expectations are too high. but when we are together, it's good, like it was before, when we were good.

i have read several other threads here and yes, i should feel lucky to be where i am. but i am really in limbo. i don't want to throw in the towel, and i don't think that's appropriate now. but, man alive, there are dozens of people here that are getting a real "second chance" and i'd just like to know how i can get that gift. whew, tough day.


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## voivod

okay, i think i am reaching the point of "what else can i do?" beth now knows i love her and would do anything for her, that i'd always be there when she needs me. she has to face the facts...she has forgiven her mother and step-father for some horrible things...i mean horrible. 

i really believe she could only turn her back on someone like this if she hated them. and she seems to ignore my work, my improvements. how on earth could she hate me? i am living the life of a pure man, or as close as possible. she loved me as deeply as anyone i have ever known. how is it that those feelings can be gone, or are they. i just feel terribly abandoned. alone, out here, trying like hell to be the man she once fell in love with.

someone please make sense of this. thank you.

sorry if i sound desparate. i know that won't help my case. i don't think i show it to beth. but i guess i am. i sorta feel like i'm slipping into a crack.


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## MarkTwain

voivod-

Keep up the distance. Try 2 weeks. How much have you been going out on your own, and meeting new people? Also, what has happened re her renting arrangements?


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> voivod-
> 
> Keep up the distance. Try 2 weeks. How much have you been going out on your own, and meeting new people? Also, what has happened re her renting arrangements?


ha!

MT--

two weeks are impossible, for both of us. just when i think i can do it, she comes around, or invites me to do something. movies, tv, family stuff. 

as for the going out on my own...meeting new people...i can't. i mean, i am not in any mood or mindset to meet new people. i love beth and i want to be with her. most free moments i feel this way. i understand absence makes the heart grow fonder, but we both suffer from the inability to "take a break" from one another. 

Sunday was a perfect example. i was going to stay home, but took up her invitation to watch a pacino movie. he's one of my favorites. she knows that. anyway. i stayed almost til midnite.

as far as her rent arrangements...she got a house...4 bedroom. yes, it would fit the entire family nicely, and it's beautiful. six month lease. we'll see


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## MarkTwain

voivod-

I think you're addicted to this woman.

Eventually when you get fed up and you tell her, you might get a result, one way or the other. Limbo is fine for six months or so, but after that it gets silly.

The thing is, if she really wants you, then you can't put her off by saying the wrong thing that easily. But if she does not really want you, she will use that as an excuse to tell you it's over.

You need the guts to make it happen.


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## Anna1974

I full well understand what addicions do to relationships. It is so difficult to understand everything we all go through. But all addicts need love and help. We must be strong to help them through the tough times that lie ahead. Things will get better either way.


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> voivod-
> 
> I think you're addicted to this woman.
> 
> Eventually when you get fed up and you tell her, you might get a result, one way or the other. Limbo is fine for six months or so, but after that it gets silly.
> 
> The thing is, if she really wants you, then you can't put her off by saying the wrong thing that easily. But if she does not really want you, she will use that as an excuse to tell you it's over.
> 
> You need the guts to make it happen.


so it sounds like ultimatum time to you?


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## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> so it sounds like ultimatum time to you?


In the world of MT? Yes, I have my limits. I don't believe anyone is more special than anyone else. I don't believe in soul mates. A relationship with history is worth putting some effort in to save, but there has to be a time limit - but that's me.


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## voivod

well, i've imposed no time limits mt. i did once before and it worked out, but i think that lingered in beth's mind. i think she resented the notion that she was "forced" to make a decision. albeit, her decision wa to go out and buy wedding bands and ask me to marry her. 

the circumstances were that we had our first child before we were married. more than two years had passed, and i insisted that my daughter grow up with a legally married mom and dad. one day i put my foot down and said "if not by x date, then never." i also told her that if she didn't give me a solution, i was walking out the door and not coming back. i had one foot literally out the door and she said "wait, stop!" later she told me that God told her to stop me from leaving her life. two weeks later, she presented me with a ring and asked me to marry her.

so this is why i say ulimatum "worked." but i do not want to be manipulative. i think that move was a manipulation move and controlling and really kind of a crappy thing to do to someone you love. so i'm not althogether in for an ultimatum.

i know her personality so well. she is a scrapbooker. kind of a history-keeper. she has dozens of scrapbooks that she makes digitally. anyway, one she made recently chronicalled our marriage. for one day she had a page that marked the day we got married and one that had our break-up day, kinda like a gravestone. y'know born--(date)....died--(date) only it said married--(date)...divorced--(date).

that was upsetting to see obviously, but the next day that page was deleted and the second page had pictures of us kissing at our wedding, the "you may kiss the bride" kiss and others. and a page was added with very complimentary pictures of bothe of us together headed with a big bold "chris and beth." so i gauged her attitude by the edits. i think she's having thoughts other than "we're over" and her actions have been the same lately.

mt--you said you thought i was addicted to this woman...maybe so. ironically she has said something about being addicted to ME. i don't think she likes the addiction thing. maybe it bothers her that she could be addicted to another human. interesting.

just some random thoughts for ya. i don't think ultimatum is the place to be.


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## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> i don't think ultimatum is the place to be.


Let's skip to the end game.

I assume that you would not wait for ever. Let's say after 3 more years, you got fed up, and maybe you wanted to start looking...

So would you just drop her silently at that point, or would you say, "Look Beth, I just wanted you to know, I'm moving on", or would you say "Look Beth, I just wanted you to know, I'm moving on, if you want to stop me, you have 1 week/month/year/deacde to make up your mind"?


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> Let's skip to the end game.
> 
> I assume that you would not wait for ever. Let's say after 3 more years, you got fed up, and maybe you wanted to start looking...
> 
> So would you just drop her silently at that point, or would you say, "Look Beth, I just wanted you to know, I'm moving on", or would you say "Look Beth, I just wanted you to know, I'm moving on, if you want to stop me, you have 1 week/month/year/deacde to make up your mind"?


hmmm...

interesting...

i guess my hope would be that her head would clear. but if it didn't, we're still married. i think there would be no moral justification for me to "move on." knowing me, i'd probably get frustrated/mad and give her a "moving on..stop me" speech. she would beak down. i wouldn't wanna do that to her...i don't know.


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## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> knowing me, i'd probably get frustrated/mad and give her a "moving on..stop me" speech. she would beak down. i wouldn't wanna do that to her...i don't know.


Well, that is an ultimatum! My point is, you are probably going to issue one eventually, when you get to the end of your rope. Just my guess but the medication you're on is probably making you more detached. If it were me, by now, my "hot head" would have kicked in, and I'd be like "You have 3 minutes!".


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> Well, that is an ultimatum! My point is, you are probably going to issue one eventually, when you get to the end of your rope. Just my guess but the medication you're on is probably making you more detached. If it were me, by now, my "hot head" would have kicked in, and I'd be like "You have 3 minutes!".


hahaha..one of the things she wishes i wasn't so much of is "hot-headed" so i resist.

you mention meds...minimal effect. i'm gonna get off em if i can (doctors call). i think it's not beneficial at this point.


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## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> you mention meds...minimal effect. i'm gonna get off em if i can (doctors call).


I hope you get a say in it


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## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> hahaha..one of the things she wishes i wasn't so much of is "hot-headed" so i resist.


That's smoke and mirrors. She knows you will always win. She's just trying to put you off the scent.


----------



## sirch

well I am struggling now to pull the trigger too. I know three months isn't long to some but it feels like ages to me. I don't know if I want to give her the option of an ultimatum. She never gave me an option, just leave. So my thought (maybe I'm wrong) is to let her get served papers, then she will know how serious this situation is. Seems to me at this point is she wants her cake (single life) and eat it too (having sex with me). I don't know if this is the right thing to do but what other alternatives do I have?


----------



## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> That's smoke and mirrors. She knows you will always win. She's just trying to put you off the scent.


mark..

i don't wanna "win." i just want my family back together.


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## in a daze

sirch said:


> well I am struggling now to pull the trigger too. I know three months isn't long to some but it feels like ages to me. I don't know if I want to give her the option of an ultimatum. She never gave me an option, just leave. So my thought (maybe I'm wrong) is to let her get served papers, then she will know how serious this situation is. Seems to me at this point is she wants her cake (single life) and eat it too (having sex with me). I don't know if this is the right thing to do but what other alternatives do I have?


im at 2 months on th 27th, and her lease is for 3, im sure she will add at mleast one. on. im still supporting, but its getting tough. no fights or infidelity on either side, she just neweds to clear her head. i will wait and pray. gl


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> That's smoke and mirrors. She knows you will always win. She's just trying to put you off the scent.


so what...just bring the hammer down? i want this to come to a positive conclusion as much as the forum does...but i've been called an idiot for considering trying to force her hand.


----------



## Sprite

Voi, its not about "winning" and I am glad to see that you understand that. Unlike MT, I do believe in soul mates. If we didn't have soul mates, why would people stay married for 50+ years? You know they go through ups and downs too, but they work at it for a better outcome(a 50 year marriage).

The whole deal with that scrapbook that showed "married" then "divorced" was simply just how she was feeling that day. It doesnt mean she really wants a divorce, but it is in the back of her mind. I have dreamed of being divorced and on my own, no one to answer to, no one to ever tell me I am wrong again, to be able to do what ever I pleased whenever I pleased it...that would be great. Those same thoughts run through Beth's mind...but...then we stop and think about everything that would be lost. The things that would be lost are more important than the things we could possibly have...so we go back and forth between the ideas of staying married or divorcing. It is very empowering for us when we realize that we do have the upper hand with how ever the situation turns out. Sometimes it is so empowering that we want it to linger in your minds. You may think this sounds cold and manipulative, but we don't mean it that way. After so many years of feeling neglected, we like to drink in the fact of how you treat us now. The way you should have been treating us all along. So...we try to keep that feeling as long as we can because it makes us feel more loved and wanted than when things where "good". Does that make sense?

In my honest opinion, you would be an idiot for trying to force her hand to make a decision. It has to be her decision in her time...not something she is forced to decide on right now. The only thing that forcing her hand would do now is to piss her off, and it might not go the way you want it to, or that she wants it to for that matter. But by forcing it, it empowers her again(not in a good way for you)...and she just may say "eff that, I am not gonna take that any more, I'll show him" and then the divorce proceedings start. I know you don't want that, and I dont want to see it go down that route for you! The best thing you can do right now is just talk to her...tell her how you feel and where you see the 2 of you in 2 years, then 5 years. Tell her your hopes for the two of you and the family. This way, she KNOWS exactly what your intentions are and it is up to her if she wants to be a part of that dream or not. I am really hoping(and assuming) that she does want to be a part of that. She will be empowered again(in a good way for you both) to be the one to make it happen for all of you.

You are going to be in limbo for awhile, and I am sorry for that, i know it is not a good time. But, if you let it play out, it will be worth it in the end. She is still healing herself internally and needs this time to do so. As much as you want to help her, there is little you can do for her right now other than to let her know you are there for her. This is something she needs to work out on her own..the battle between her head and her heart. It is not a good time for her either because she is filled with confusion. She struggles with her own thoughts of "why can't i just forgive him and move on like I have been able to do so easily all along" and "I will never allow him to take advantage of me(the relationship mostly) again". She will come to a point where she will be able to forgive(but not forget) and let you back in, and you have to be able to forgive yourself for your mistakes too. This is a hard thing to do, I know because Dan struggles with this every day.

Please just don't ever forget that if she truelly wanted a divorce, she would have started the process by now. She will be able to forgive eventually, when she can control the battle between her head and heart. Part of her says she wants things to be good again, part of her reminds herself that she let her heart lead her before...and this is where she is because of it. She wont allow that to happen again.

Keep looking for those little signs that tell you things are improving or are on a possitive note. It will help you stay on course. She doesn't plant those possitive things by accident!

Just hang in there voi, and don't be like those guys that decide they had enough trying and give up.


----------



## in a daze

Sprite said:


> Voi, its not about "winning" and I am glad to see that you understand that. Unlike MT, I do believe in soul mates. If we didn't have soul mates, why would people stay married for 50+ years? You know they go through ups and downs too, but they work at it for a better outcome(a 50 year marriage).
> 
> The whole deal with that scrapbook that showed "married" then "divorced" was simply just how she was feeling that day. It doesnt mean she really wants a divorce, but it is in the back of her mind. I have dreamed of being divorced and on my own, no one to answer to, no one to ever tell me I am wrong again, to be able to do what ever I pleased whenever I pleased it...that would be great. Those same thoughts run through Beth's mind...but...then we stop and think about everything that would be lost. The things that would be lost are more important than the things we could possibly have...so we go back and forth between the ideas of staying married or divorcing. It is very empowering for us when we realize that we do have the upper hand with how ever the situation turns out. Sometimes it is so empowering that we want it to linger in your minds. You may think this sounds cold and manipulative, but we don't mean it that way. After so many years of feeling neglected, we like to drink in the fact of how you treat us now. The way you should have been treating us all along. So...we try to keep that feeling as long as we can because it makes us feel more loved and wanted than when things where "good". Does that make sense?
> 
> In my honest opinion, you would be an idiot for trying to force her hand to make a decision. It has to be her decision in her time...not something she is forced to decide on right now. The only thing that forcing her hand would do now is to piss her off, and it might not go the way you want it to, or that she wants it to for that matter. But by forcing it, it empowers her again(not in a good way for you)...and she just may say "eff that, I am not gonna take that any more, I'll show him" and then the divorce proceedings start. I know you don't want that, and I dont want to see it go down that route for you! The best thing you can do right now is just talk to her...tell her how you feel and where you see the 2 of you in 2 years, then 5 years. Tell her your hopes for the two of you and the family. This way, she KNOWS exactly what your intentions are and it is up to her if she wants to be a part of that dream or not. I am really hoping(and assuming) that she does want to be a part of that. She will be empowered again(in a good way for you both) to be the one to make it happen for all of you.
> 
> You are going to be in limbo for awhile, and I am sorry for that, i know it is not a good time. But, if you let it play out, it will be worth it in the end. She is still healing herself internally and needs this time to do so. As much as you want to help her, there is little you can do for her right now other than to let her know you are there for her. This is something she needs to work out on her own..the battle between her head and her heart. It is not a good time for her either because she is filled with confusion. She struggles with her own thoughts of "why can't i just forgive him and move on like I have been able to do so easily all along" and "I will never allow him to take advantage of me(the relationship mostly) again". She will come to a point where she will be able to forgive(but not forget) and let you back in, and you have to be able to forgive yourself for your mistakes too. This is a hard thing to do, I know because Dan struggles with this every day.
> 
> Please just don't ever forget that if she truelly wanted a divorce, she would have started the process by now. She will be able to forgive eventually, when she can control the battle between her head and heart. Part of her says she wants things to be good again, part of her reminds herself that she let her heart lead her before...and this is where she is because of it. She wont allow that to happen again.
> 
> Keep looking for those little signs that tell you things are improving or are on a possitive note. It will help you stay on course. She doesn't plant those possitive things by accident!
> 
> Just hang in there voi, and don't be like those guys that decide they had enough trying and give up.


 great post and i learned a lot from it. i am losing my patience, but trying hard to hold on. you have come all this way, dont throw it done the tubes, let it play out as sprite says. i wish i had done this from the beginning, but im still hangin in. gl!!!!


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## voivod

sprite--
thanks for your insightful reply...

now that page in the scrapbook has the "you may now kiss the bride" picture. things have been pretty good for us lately. beth did take a pot shot at me yesterday. i'm going to have a conversation with her about that. hopefully it won't blow up in my face.

i have decided not to "force her hand." i see the situation as improving incrementally. i don't like her, however, when she's pms-ing, i never have. but it's a small price to pay, it really is, for the crap i've put her through.

i did tell her if she could let her guard down, she'd see the adjustments i've made. her comment was "i can't forgive 16 years for 6 months of good." hoping that means she's seen the changes.

don't you ladies understand that you can take a chance now? let down your walls. if it's not perfect, you can put em back up. you've proved you are strong.

this paragraph was most meaningful:

>>>Please just don't ever forget that if she truelly wanted a divorce, she would have started the process by now. She will be able to forgive eventually, when she can control the battle between her head and heart. Part of her says she wants things to be good again, part of her reminds herself that she let her heart lead her before...and this is where she is because of it. She wont allow that to happen again.<<<

that sounds so much like beth.

limbo sucks sprite. i'm doing so many things right.


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## voivod

post number one thousand in this thread...wow...i'd hoped by this point there would be a happy conclusion to the saga...but not as of yet. you who have followed this probably know that my patience has worn thin from time to time. hence, my email to her:

dearest bethie,

i want to thank you for being everything i could have hoped for in a wife. your warmth and deep love were not wasted on me honey. i am now, for the first time since that wonderful night in 1988, the man you had hoped i would be. the one you threw yourself at and built a family around. i made a promise to you, and you made one to me. you said "choose me and we will have a wonderful life together." i told you that you had chosen a broken man and if you would be patient with me, i would become the best man you could hope for. and here i am, nearly pure. 

do you remember the "loveables from chris" scrapbook you made. the one with the love notes and the concert tickets and the pictures we took of each other in our first apartment. or the pictures of us roller blading at lucky peak. or the check you made out payable to me for "services." well, guess what? i still have that scrapbook and i cherish it dearly.

if there is one moment i wish you would replay in your mind and heart it is the "big kiss" in the hallway, the one that dropped you to your knees. you were such a romantic! and i loved you then, and i love you now. i think i have fallen in love with you even more these past few weeks and months, but you'll refuse to see the me i am now. did i hurt you that much? i never had an affair, never cheated on you. the cardinal sins of a marriage i never did! how is it that you feel the need to treat me as though i screwed someone behind your back? never!

you tell yourself you are such a good person, such high morals. yet here i am, possibly permanently disabled, working my ass off to become whole again. i'm so close to being 100%. and you abandon me??? remember us in the hospital? how you pulled my ass through those first horrible days after the stroke, how you said "don't leave us, we need you." well honey, i need YOU now. i need for you to see this as a challenge that i overcame for you, for our family. now i am ready to be the man you intended to be married to.

i resist so much the temptation to call you selfish, because i guess i don't understand the circumstances behind all this. but you get the benefits of my disability SSI while i am the kids' taxi. you have zero worries when you drop them off in the morning to go to work. and if my job requires me to stay late, i am the one who makes sure they get to where they need to be. you know i take off from work and you never give any appreciation for that. 

and you blame me for the mortgage trouble. yet never once a "thank you" for having the forsite to purchase disability insurance to replace my pay 100 percent while i was out. yeah, it was ME who got us in such financial trouble. i have not had the guts to call bulls#!t on that. even when you told that story to dr. rice about your "dream home" how it was a "modest" home and that my irresponsibility put it in jeopardy. that "modest" home was a 250-thousand dollar palace, something that you only dreamt about until i hit it BIG in radio, then GIGANTIC in sales.

i am going to close by saying i still love you deeply. you are missing the best part of me with your stubbornness. please see that i am a changed man, with no alcohol problem, zero jealousy and control problems under control.

i love you.

my counselor wonders what keeps me from communicating my feelings to beth. above is the reason. and why it still sits in my "draft" email folder. maybe someday. right now, i just want to make things right.


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## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> post number one thousand in this thread...wow...i'd hoped by this point there would be a happy conclusion to the saga...but not as of yet. you who have followed this probably know that my patience has worn thin from time to time. hence, my email to her:


If you actually hit send, I take my hat off to you.

Now all you have to do is stand firm, and act a bit miffed.


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## Guest

Voi, I was not going to post here anymore but after I read your drafted email I had to say something. Do NOT hit send. Go back and reread that. If you were her, and felt you had been betrayed by your husband for his own selfish actions, do you honestly think she is going to see that email as all positive? Reread that, there is way to much finger pointing at her, or blaming. That mirror is on you, not her. All Beth has been doing is living. She works, takes care of your kids too, and is going day to day. She has not closed you out, she is only waiting to make sure your changed. She still talks to you, you do things together, you just aren't intimate yet, so sit back and reread that email, your going to throw doubt back into her mind by pointing fingers, wether you see that or not.


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## voivod

Jason said:


> Voi, I was not going to post here anymore but after I read your drafted email I had to say something. Do NOT hit send. Go back and reread that. If you were her, and felt you had been betrayed by your husband for his own selfish actions, do you honestly think she is going to see that email as all positive? Reread that, there is way to much finger pointing at her, or blaming. That mirror is on you, not her. All Beth has been doing is living. She works, takes care of your kids too, and is going day to day. She has not closed you out, she is only waiting to make sure your changed. She still talks to you, you do things together, you just aren't intimate yet, so sit back and reread that email, your going to throw doubt back into her mind by pointing fingers, wether you see that or not.



i'm not sending it. i think it would make her think i was pointing fingers, blaming. then what? how much have i really improved? but i'm afraid these issues will rear there ugly head at some point. because i do have resentment built up. because she HAS blamed me for some of our fnancial woes. i f*$&ing bought a temporary disability policy that paid 100 % of my salary while i was down. what the F*$k about that? i am the taxi for the kids, 7 days a week, taking time out of my workday, with no appreciation. yeah, i want her back. but she's got some things that need to be dealt with too.


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## Guest

Ah Voi, those sound like just normal things in a marriage, wether your there yet or not. Just accept and stop competeing with her, it wont get you anywhere. I wouldn't get hung up on that stuff.


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## voivod

ha, yeah well that's all fine and dandy, but i lowered the boom today (quit my job due to her raising hell about my responsibilities toward picking them up at school every day and getting them everywhere they need to be, laid some "selfish" language on her, which she is) and she called me back all sympathetic and apologetic. nice to see her move that direction for a change.


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## in a daze

you are finally getting what you have wanted for a long time. dont be a hard ass and dont be a doorstop, MAKE IT WORK!!!. congrats, i wish i was in the same position.


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## voivod

in a daze said:


> you are finally getting what you have wanted for a long time. dont be a hard ass and dont be a doorstop, MAKE IT WORK!!!. congrats, i wish i was in the same position.


daze--

i'm finaly getting what i've wanted for a long time??? you must really know how to read in between lines, because this is NOT where i want to be!

no, i didn't click "send" on that email, but this is what I DID send:

It is most gruelling sitting here at work trying to succeed when i know you are hating me for trying to get back. i don't understand what grudge you are holding or why you have so much pent up anger against me. i do know what my faults are and have addressed them and you still kick me in the nuts. i'm sure i deserve it but you are a good person who should not be so vengeful. I know my jealousy and control sucked. it did for me, too. you NEVER gave me a reason to doubt you. i see how you could not have fun with me always emotionally hovering over you. all you ever wanted was to be yourself and i wouldnt let you. well, i get that now. i see the problems and dealt with them. for you, you never wanted to tell me any of my imperfections. you kept everything inside til you erupted. now i am trying to get better, and i have to quit my job???!!!??? i don't know if you've noticed but i'm NOT a QUITTER. maybe that's why i didn't f-ing die! fy- beth, this isn't me emailing you out of hate. it's just random stuff i wanted to say. no i'm not quitting my job to be your full time taxi driver. our plan was for me to stay at home and rehab, continue to invest in the market and be the "stay at home dad" that you wanted me to be. that plan kinda went up in smoke with your decision to move out. so i don't know who's supposed to talk next, but that's all i have.

love-

chris


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## MarkTwain

Wow, that email is even better than the one you didn't send!

It will be interesting to hear the reply, and see whether you back down, or maintain your new-found saltiness...


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> Wow, that email is even better than the one you didn't send!
> 
> It will be interesting to hear the reply, and see whether you back down, or maintain your new-found saltiness...


well, her reaction was rather, um, empathetic. sorry, sad, whatever. she sounded like she was sorry she implied the things that i understood she was asking of me i.e., leave my job to be there and be her taxi service, foregoing a pretty good payday and the jumpstart to my career that this company and my sales mamager friend has given me, and my "full" recovery from the stroke. 

i'm dancing on the head of a pin with the recovery, because the closer i truly get to 100%, the closer i get to NOT recieving SSI disability, which would impact everyone. but the goal WAS for me to recover, damn the torpedoes, and here i am, on the edge of that goal.

i reminded her that as hard as she fought to keep me alive, i'm going to fight that hard for our marriage and family. she didn't quit me, and i'm not quitting them.

good news is she's still communicating. now it's rather nicey-nice. we'll see how that continues. i sent her a little gift of balloons a couple of days ago, unrelated to my "blow-up" email. they were well-received according to the kids.


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## amigo21

Hi, I have been following your thread for quite sometime now. Like many people have told till now - if she wanted to get out of it, she would have done it by now. She still loves you and wants you. But she is very scared all those things would repeat themselves again. She needs lots of assurances from you.

She gave you 16 years time to understand her and change for her. Its only now that you have started changing.

Give her some more time and lots of love.
Things will surely work out for u in the end...


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## voivod

amigo21 said:


> Hi, I have been following your thread for quite sometime now. Like many people have told till now - if she wanted to get out of it, she would have done it by now. She still loves you and wants you. But she is very scared all those things would repeat themselves again. She needs lots of assurances from you.
> 
> She gave you 16 years time to understand her and change for her. Its only now that you have started changing.
> 
> Give her some more time and lots of love.
> Things will surely work out for u in the end...


hope you're right...i've been banking on that "if she wanted it over, she'd be gone" thought...this is tough...thanks...


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## voivod

had a pretty long conversation about the email i DID send...the root of the conversation was how i "misunderstood" her when she asked me about ther job. something about how it was going to cost alot if ssi disability was cut because i was doing so well.

"so what!", i said. isn't the goal here to return to normal??? if you saw me now, you might thing i hurt my leg because of a slight limp or you might think something about my left arm because it doesn't function as well as it should. but crap, i'm back.

so i sit trying to read in between the line (i do that alot). what the hell does she mean? another case of beth just talking without thinking? i don't know.

there was also a bunch of small talk in this conversation that was her trying to have "normal" communication. cute, and fun. felt good. but once again, as we got closer to talking like a "normal" couple, she'd say or do something little that i could tell was another "raising of the walls."

she really goes out of her way to protect herself.

good thing happened a few nights ago. she went out to a local nightclub to help a friend at work celebrate. she only was out until 10pm. didn't do any of the stupid things that a jealous husband would find suspect. i guess my point is that she is NOT someone i need to mistrust. my jealousy was so misplaced, or as my counselor has suggested "projected." feels so good to have the jealousy bug off my back.


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## voivod

good news i think...

my mortgage company, who i got behind to after my stroke, has approved a loan modification/forebearance agreement and it looks like, with a lot of work, i'll be keeping my house.

more good news (potentially)...

beth knew i was working on a loan mod...ok, so she was at the house last weekend, kinda walking through to make sure all of our stuff was accounted for...she said to my kids, "this is my favorite house. this is where i want to live."

so, i am not counting my chickens, but it sounds to me like she's setting up a graceful return. 

hell, i don't know. i'm talking to her tonight about the loan mod. we'll see.


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## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> so, i am not counting my chickens, but it sounds to me like she's setting up a graceful return.
> 
> hell, i don't know. i'm talking to her tonight about the loan mod. we'll see.


As I've said a hundred times before... it would be a big mistake to take her back before a decent level of intimacy has resumed. Think of it this way... you would not move into a house with a woman unless you fell in love and lusted after each other first.

Your situation is no different. You're starting again, but with baggage. If she does not show definite lust for you - you'll be sleeping in separate rooms. 

You might think that is an improvement over the current situation, but I doubt you will be saying that after the first month. Stop thinking only of the house. Think about the sleeping arrangements, and especially what happens in bed when you're not sleeping.

EDIT...

Just because I actually have time to write today... I just wanted to say, the absolute worse thing would be to be in the same bed but with no sex! Do things in the proper order. Get her *wanting* you first.


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## voivod

MT-
the more time passes and things happen, i think the house is the key...maybe not the issue, but she is seeing responsibility in me as i take an active role in trying to modify the loan and keep the house. yesterday was a good day me thinks...beth called me and invited me to lunch (small talk...she dropped a "honey" on me...she chooses her words carefully) and then invited me to dinner last night.

she seems real interested in my actions with the mortgage company...also asked me how long my lease was at the apartment im living at..

also found out that she told my insurance agent that my intention was to keep the house...

and she told my girls "that's my favorite house...i want to live there"

so as for you suggestion regarding sex...the sex will come...our sex life was dynamic and diverse before...no reason to believe that if we were cohabitating that it wouldn't return to normal...that's what i think anyway...


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## voivod

i'm pretty confused at this point. beth is treating me extremely well, communicates her work frustrations to me, asks me to help her with different issues, she came over to the sidelines during her soccer game and asked me advice on an "offsides trap" (a type of defensive soccer set up, she never wanted my advice for her team before, ever). 
anyway, she also asked me if i wanted her front door key a couple of days ago to retreive something from her house. that's more trust than she has given me in awhile! i was kinda shocked.
these are the types of things that are going on now. i wonder what your opinions might be folks. does this sound like a woman trying to put distance between us, or maybe is she coming around?


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## raising5boyz

Keep chugging along man....time will tell what her intentions are...I'm sure thats not what you want to hear, as you have been working on this for a while...but what else can you do? Really though, it sounds to me like she's coming around. 

Just one more thing....I find your story to be inspirational. Thank You.


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## voivod

raising5boyz said:


> Keep chugging along man....time will tell what her intentions are...I'm sure thats not what you want to hear, as you have been working on this for a while...but what else can you do? Really though, it sounds to me like she's coming around.
> 
> Just one more thing....I find your story to be inspirational. Thank You.


thank you r5b...i don't know what part of my story you find inspirational, but hey, i'm glad.

i've had two fairlt close family friends in the past 2-3 days say "she still loves you" and that i should continue on while not appearing to be pressuring.

she called me out of the blue last week to ask me to join her for lunch...and dinner at the last minute. i suspect she thought i was going out that night, as i left the soccer field the opposite direction i usually do.

i'm so tired. i have been at this a while. the hard thing is there have been several signs over the months that she was coming around. it's taking so damned long.

we spent friday night watching movies. so pleasant. i love her so much.


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> Wow, that email is even better than the one you didn't send!
> 
> It will be interesting to hear the reply, and see whether you back down, or maintain your new-found saltiness...


mt==
i lost the saltiness i think. here's my latest email:

beth,

enough. the beer was just an excuse. i quit drinking 100 percent and you know that. you mention jealousy, control and anger. i've spent the past 10 months successfully working those issues out.

i am no longer the insanely jealous, untrusting man that i was. i love you so much that i took on the inner crap that scared me so much. i had to admit that i was a jealous, controlling, selfish person. it hurts me because i hurt you so much. 

i am writing this now because i realize how much you have always meant to me. since day one your kisses gave me chills. i don't want to live like this. i want the old, happy us back. i'll meet you at the house on sedgewick, under the same roof, with the same dreams.

love,
chris


and before i hit send (like 5 minute ago) she called me out of the blue. i swear, we were meant to be together. never fights, no disagreements, little petty conflicts always work themselves out. we are going to be together again.

here i go, gonna hit send. wish me luck.


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## burnsrunner

I came across a book during my divorce that really helped me and my family out. "Stop Fighting Over the Kids," by Mike Mastracci. I swear if this book was owned by every married couple with kids, you would see less divorce. If parents have to get divorced, they would do well to read this book before they take a single step to hiring a lawyer or driving to the court house. But the main thing with any relationship is that the kids should come first and this book really helps keep that focus.


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## raising5boyz

Just so you know....I find your story inspirational...ok, it is more you that I find inspirational. You have worked on your self so much...you are so commited to your family and your wife. It shows a lot of integrity. So many other men would of given up and lost hope....then reverted back to their old habits and ways. You have held fast and strong. Your effort and determination is impressive. Keep it up! It will pay off.


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## Sensitive

I felt compeled to read your story, but can't possibly follow the whole thread. I just wanted to express my sympathies. My mom recently had a stroke, and it has changed the dynamics of the whole family. If I fell seriously ill, I don't think my husband would be emotionally strong enough to take care of me nor the kids.


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## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> mt==
> i lost the saltiness i think. here's my latest email:
> 
> beth,
> 
> enough. the beer was just an excuse. i quit drinking 100 percent and you know that. you mention jealousy, control and anger. i've spent the past 10 months successfully working those issues out.
> .
> .
> .


Good email. Let's see how she responds.


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## voivod

y'know, it's amazing to me that total strangers can see the inspiration and perspiration i'm putting into this effort, but my beautiful wife doesn't see it. this story would make a great book, or movie. one that she'd love for the main character's dedication. why is she not getting it???

r5b--thank you. i have held fast and strong. i have avoided temptation, booze, women, the whole thing. i am dedicated to making it work. for my 3 girls and boy, my wife, my family.

sensitive--i do believe that one of the issues is that i drained her of emotional strength. she was such a pillar of strength before the stroke. she was our rock. the efforts she put forth during my recovery may have drained her. she was a hero, a true guardian angel.

mark twain--it seems like every move i make leads to me waiting for the other shoe to drop. it's been very hard.


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## voivod

holy smokes---
i just got home from having dinner at beth's house. had a good cry on the drive home. not because of anything that was said. i just don't know how she can not see the difference in me, or if she does why she doesn't acknowledge it. this is a woman who told me "you can ask me a thousand times today or once in a thousand years, the answer will be the same...i love you."

our lives together were so good, so warm and caring. she nursed me through the stroke and loved me unconditionally. now when i need her the most, it seems she's just barely out of reach. i am getting back into our house thanks to a loan modification by my mortgage company who recognized the stroke created real financial difficulties. this is her "favorite house." she told my girls she "wants to live there."

my 12 year old daughter says "mom still sees you guys as husband and wife." God, i just have to have her grasp the idea that i am a different, improved man. integrity. that's the word she used to describe me. i am so dedicated to my marriage and family. yes, i can wait. but patience is hard to come by right now.

sorry. i'm just at a low point today. one of my best friends is getting divorced. he told me today that he was close to killing himself with a gun when he found out that his marriage was about over. maybe that is playing my emotions.

EDIT AFTER ORIGINAL POST: just found out through conversation with wife that she was sexually abused by a grandfather when she was young. possibly created intimacy issues that i spotted a few years ago. definitely fits a pattern that my counselor noted several month ago.


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## voivod

i just came back from our house, the one i've been fighting to keep. i've decided that is going to be my waterloo...either beth is going to "get it" and understand that i was NOT the one who ruined our credit and put us in a position to lose the house...that i AM the one who worked my a$$ off to get it back and in order.

if she cannot recognize that i fought like a mf-er to get myself back physically after my stroke and regain our semi-prosperous life, and...

if she cannot admit that it was ME who protected us financially after i lost all my vacation days to a brown recluse spider bite by purchasing disability insurance...

if she doesn't "get it" then i guess i'm just going to...

give it more time, because that's what it's gonna take. i've never wanted something more than i want my family back together. and as hard as this has been, it will be worth it when it happens.


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## amigo21

wonderful thinking...
u will surely win your battle in the end...
All the Best..


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## voivod

amigo21 said:


> wonderful thinking...
> u will surely win your battle in the end...
> All the Best..


thanks amigo...i'm still trying...

just returned from beth's we watched a movie (actually about half of one...she asked if we could get together when we weren't both so tired to watch the rest of it...absolutely!) and had dinner together...casual and nice.

fighting a bit of silly jealousy the past couple of days...silly because there's nothing to worry about. jealousy has been one of my big battles.

i swear, were gonna make it. beth said "sure" to taking a drive tomorrow. yeehaw! someday folks...

EDIT AFTER POSTING: jealousy has always been my cross to bear in this relationship. i don't understand it very much, but it's always been there and it is very harmful. example: she went to the drag races on friday with a female friend from work. why the hell would that make me jealous? i'm pretty sure it's not for some guy...i gotta find a way to kick this!


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> Good email. Let's see how she responds.


her response was chilling.

"we will never be together again. you aren't allowed to refer to me that way. you dont get it. you blew this a long time ago."

my response to this was:

"you loved me once. and i love you more than ever. never will i hurt you again. i would like to know just how i blew it. because i think i know and i have matured. i would just like the chance to talk calmly about when i blew it and what i've done to become more honorable. i thimnk i can make you proud."

of course it hurt. i don't know what to think.


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## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> her response was chilling.
> 
> "we will never be together again. you aren't allowed to refer to me that way. you dont get it. you blew this a long time ago."


V, you are different to me. But in your shoes there is only one thing I would do after a reply like that - show my displeasure by cutting all contact with her until I got a BIG retraction.

I think your response was understandable but inappropriate. She want s to see some saltiness now, not a love-struck puppy. You also have to face the possibility that she could be serious. Paradoxically, it might well be that you will not be in a position to get her back until you have let go of the prize.

You have spent, what? the best part of a year on this? We only have your side of it, but does sound like you have tried everything. Plus you have had a whole forum full of people giving you guidance, so it's not like you have done anything out of the blue like a "hot head".

The one problem you have not worked on is the fact that you feel you have to get back with her at all costs - like you are only half a person without her. This is not a good position to be in. It makes you appear weak to me, and no doubt to her. If you could contemplate the idea of moving on, it might just put the finishing touches on you remarkable recovery. 

It may well be that if she were to feel you have given up - she might get worried. Certainly her email has given you permission to do just that. Personally, I would start dating.


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## voivod

MT---
she's not making it easy...three calls today about bulls#it little things...i know her well enough to say it was her way to take a little sting off...or to say, "hey, i didn't mean it that way."


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## voivod

mommy22 said:


> Actually, in some ways I agree with MT. I do think you need to show some gall. You've really worked hard to win her affections. Don't be a jerk, but don't be a doormat either. Keep your confidence. If she's telling you she lost the battle, start looking for extracurricular activities to fill your time. What are your talents? Find ways to fulfill them.
> 
> You're appearing too needy/clingy. Let her see that there are other things besides her that make you tick.


ten-four mommy 22...is she telling me i lost the battle?

i guess i AM pretty needy...i should post the pictures from the hospital...you'd understand...

you're right...i HAVE worked hard...but it's nothing that any other loving, caring husband wouldn't do...i still believe i'm gonna succeed...

talents??? i was a very good hockey player...strong in the gym...good soccer coach...sucks...so much of my talents were physical...now..i'm a stroke victim...i'll never be as strong as i was.

good poker player...WAS a REAL good drinker...God i can't believe i said that...

people person...great on the radio...

talents huh??? well....

ALSO--i think she was enjoying having the upper hand...my kinda "salty" email to her was what triggered the response i got, i think...i retreated to "kinder-gentler" and she came back "nice beth"
if i want to get back together with her, i gotta be careful...when we are back together (and strangely enough, i feel more strongly that we ARE going to be together after the latest volley of "you don't get it, we're never getting back together" crap; it gave me the opportunity to call "bulls#it" and TELL her i've been doing counseling for the sake of the family and i now recognize what she has known for years) is when i will, with her, work on HER problems, gently and with professional help.


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## toomanytears

I agree with the others too. Don't have as much contact. M22 is right, don't be a jerk but dang sure don't be a doormat! You have worked hard at making positive changes in yourself. Find anything to do to occupy time so you aren't as available.

I am limited in my physical activities due to my disability so I know where you are coming from concerning the stroke. It tends to be depressing when you can no longer enjoy activities that once were so easy. I've just tried to find other hobbies and things I can do.


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## voivod

maybe you guys will understand when you read the following, which i copied and pasted from a TGolbus post and partially quoted in mommy22's signature:

I have faith!!!!
Love is patient,
love is kind.
It does not envy,
it does not boast,
it is not proud.
It is not rude,
it is not self-seeking,
it is not easily angered,
it keeps no record of wrongs.
Love does not delight in evil,
but rejoices with the truth.
It always protects,
always trusts,
always hopes,
always perseveres.
Love never fails...


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## voivod

funny...day two of me incidentally limiting contact. beth came to my door at 7am and called me at 7:45am...maybe this is not the purpose of nc, but it seems that it works.


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## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> MT---
> she's not making it easy...three calls today about bulls#it little things...i know her well enough to say it was her way to take a little sting off...or to say, "hey, i didn't mean it that way."


V! You're just not getting it! You should have been "unavailable" to her 3 calls. She needs to feel the sting of her own tongue. It's a matter of respect. You need her to feel respect for you. I can't say this any clearer - you are going to have to be a man's man.

I knew she did not mean what she said in that email - it shows she still has a lot of hurt, and a considerable amount of pride. I believe you also knew she did not mean it. You have to find that inner compass and plough on. However, you come across as a man who lost his rudder. It's understandable friend, but you're going to have to be super human if you want her back.

Get saltier. Remember months back when everybody was saying, cut down calling her? and remember how she started calling you more? Well you need to up the ante. Right UP.


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> V! You're just not getting it! You should have been "unavailable" to her 3 calls. She needs to feel the sting of her own tongue. It's a matter of respect. You need her to feel respect for you. I can't say this any clearer - you are going to have to be a man's man.
> 
> I knew she did not mean what she said in that email - it shows she still has a lot of hurt, and a considerable amount of pride. I believe you also knew she did not mean it. You have to find that inner compass and plough on. However, you come across as a man who lost his rudder. It's understandable friend, but you're going to have to be super human if you want her back.
> 
> Get saltier. Remember months back when everybody was saying, cut down calling her? and remember how she started calling you more? Well you need to up the ante. Right UP.


i agree mark, however, beth has mastered the art of calling with a purpose/need. this morning it was for an insurance card. she got pulled over by an officer and couldn't find her proof of insurance. yesterday it was a conflict at work that she sounded desperate about, then a situation with her soccer league twice, then a situation with our credit union. my fault i guess that i care so much i wanna help her when i can.

"the sting of her own tongue." i like that. but she compartmentalizes so much that she'll never attach her hurtful words to the "sting" of me being unavailable.

it was almost unbelievable when she showed her face at my door at 7am this morning. totally unexpected. i don't know what to think.

you say you think i did not believe she meant what she said...i think you're right. i felt crappy for a little while, but never broke down in tears like i would have in the past. superhuman huh? okay, here goes.


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## Sprite

OMG!!! THANK YOu for NOt hitting send on that first email. As i was reading that my first thought was(and dont take this offensivly, its not directed towards you personally).....you f%#&@...you DONT GET IT!! That would have been my reaction if Dan sent me something like that. You should delete that from your drafts and pray to God she never catches wind of that one. The one you sent was ok..but some of the things you said should have been said in person, not through an email since emotions can not be heard in typed words. 

I am just curious MT..what exactly do you mean by being a "man's man"? A woman's point of view on this may be different than a mans so I am really wondering what you consider to be the meaning of this. True she should respect you..but you cant MAKE that happen, no matter what course of action you choose.

As far as the intimacy goes....I have learned that a relationship does not revolve around sex or the sexual intimacy part of it. Some may disagree with this..but when it comes down to the wire..its just a bonus feature. Maybe I feel that way because it isnt what makes my marriage work or not work. Wether we have great sex or not, it does not make him the person he is or me the person I am. A couple may have great chemistry sexually, but if they can't communicate with each other when they are not in bed together, what kind of relationship is that really? 

You don't have to be superhuman...that would mean that everything you have learned about relationships and honesty and trust could get thrown out the window. If you come across as superhuman...how will Beth ever know that the words you say or the things you do are coming from your heart?

I do agree that you shouldnt be so quick to respond when she calls you. Make her think you are busy and have other things to do. Even if you are just sitting there staring at the phone....once in a while don't answer it. Let her leve a message. Eventually the calls will be because she wants to talk to you and see what you have been doing in your life instead of always being because she needs something. 

M22 is right about "too much of a good thing"...it makes us think "its too good to be true" and we ask ourselves...when will the bomb drop?

I like the poem in your post above...but it is not entirely true. Love is not one of those things that you can say it is what it is. It is something that needs to be nutured and worked at so it can keep growing. 

It always protects,
always trusts,
always hopes,
always perseveres.
Love never fails... 
Love does fail when those things are NOT worked on, but instead taken for granted or broken.


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## voivod

mommy22 said:


> Not nc-- lc (limited contact). Don't cut her off. Also, don't take what I said to mean that I think you've gone about this the wrong way. You've been great. She couldn't ask for more. Now you have to leave her wanting more..... You see, sometimes there can be such a thing as "too much of a good thing". Yeah, it's cliche, but it often holds true.
> 
> Interesting she came to you.....


i'm not going to cut her off, but i'm not so good at limiting contact. i have some, then want so much more. so i'm gonna try to REALLY limit. 

still struggling with jealousy. the guy who helps her coach the girls' soccer team bought her a shirt related to the sport. i got the jealousy pangs about that. i don't understand why. counselor says jealousy stems from lack of self-esteem. grrr.


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## voivod

mommy22 said:


> Just don't let her see the jealousy. A small amount of jealousy can be endearing, but jealousy in large doses is suffocating.


oh my gosh..."suffocating"...that's a word she has used in the past...


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## Sprite

Why do you get jealous? I know men are jealous by nature..but our point of view is that it is just silly, but flattering.

She hasn't done anything to make you jealous...is it just the fact that you see her as "yours" and you don't want anyone or anything taking her attention off you?

I know that men do not believe that a woman and man can have a plutonic relationship....get that out of your head....it is possible and happens all the time. It is not something you should be worried about...she married YOU! She had YOUR kids!


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## amigo21

I completely agree with Sprite.
She married YOU, had YOUR kids, even if she is with a 1000 other men, it should not matter to you.
All you need is to trust that you are the only one who she really cares about...


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## MarkTwain

Right V, I'm going to deal with you!



voivod said:


> i agree mark, however, beth has mastered the art of calling with a purpose/need. this morning it was for an insurance card. she got pulled over by an officer and couldn't find her proof of insurance. yesterday it was a conflict at work that she sounded desperate about, then a situation with her soccer league twice, then a situation with our credit union.


That is female for - "I depend on you". You're just not getting it. she is using you, and you're letting her have it all on her terms for fear of losing her. She won't even be liking herself for treating this way.



voivod said:


> "the sting of her own tongue." i like that. but she compartmentalizes so much that she'll never attach her hurtful words to the "sting" of me being unavailable.


You have spent hundreds of posts telling us how she never misses a trick! Don't you believe it. she will connect up the dots.


voivod said:


> superhuman huh? okay, here goes.


You had a weakness for booze, you mastered it. Now you have to master your weakness for Beth. Can you do it?


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## voivod

amigo21 said:


> I completely agree with Sprite.
> She married YOU, had YOUR kids, even if she is with a 1000 other men, it should not matter to you.
> All you need is to trust that you are the only one who she really cares about...


yeah, that's how i should have thought when we were living together...maybe we wouldn't be in this mess...now i can't be sure i'm the only one she cares about.


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## MarkTwain

Sprite said:


> I am just curious MT..what exactly do you mean by being a "man's man"? A woman's point of view on this may be different than a mans so I am really wondering what you consider to be the meaning of this. True she should respect you..but you cant MAKE that happen, no matter what course of action you choose.


A man sets up things in such a way as to be conducive to making it happen, but a man does not bend over backwards to win a woman at all costs. V is acting like he is incomplete without Beth. This gives her power over him, and at the same time makes him seem weak.



Sprite said:


> As far as the intimacy goes....I have learned that a relationship does not revolve around sex or the sexual intimacy part of it. Some may disagree with this..but when it comes down to the wire..its just a bonus feature.


It's true that all sorts of other things must be in place for a couple to have really great sex. However, it's not simply a bonus for me. It's a major part of who I am. If I could not get that reflected back to me in my wife, I would have to move on. I want to taste the best of everything while I am on this planet. I also want to perfect being the best person I can. I loath and despise mediocrity - it is the enemy of life itself.


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## voivod

mt--
your posts on resuming intimacy are missing the point. our sex lives were pretty full and adventurous from the moment we got together. the only thing that got in the way was my weight gain (which led to my stroke) and my "workaholism" which led to our distance.

**oh by the way, i've dropped 100 pounds and refuse to work more than my schedule.

i have no reason to believe that, if/when we get back together, she will be over her apprehension of me and so head over heels that we have foiund the cure that she will be ready willing and able to resume intimacy.

i'm not worried about that part of our relationship.


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## Sprite

Maybe...just maybe...V IS incomplete without Beth. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. He may seem weak to you, or to other men, but from a woman's point of view, he is not weak. It takes a stronger man to break out of the "typical mold". We don't see this as weak, we see this as a man who is willing to compromise and a man we can put our trust in. Men see what they want and spend all their energy to get it, but if you can't get it WHEN you want it..does it make you less of a man? NO. You just try harder IF you really want it. We don't expect men to bend over backwards for us like we tend to do, but we do expect to see some effort being made. Does he seem weak to you because she may have power over him right now? Power she never had before? If she has power over him, I say good for her, and him...he can now begin to understand how she has felt all along. It puts them on an even playing field for once.

I am sorry to hear you say that about your wife. Maybe what I am reading from you is coming off wrong, but it doesn't sound like you love your wife for who she is. What if she was disabled? She is still being the best person she can be, but what if she couldnt "reflect that back to you"? Would you simply move on? The world is filled with mediocrity...not always by choice..no one is perfect nor will anyone EVER be perfect...there is no such thing as perfect...get over it!

Everyone wants the best of everything while they are here, but we don't always get that because of variables that are thrown our way. We simply try to deal with them the best we can. I think its great that you are trying to be the best person you can be, more people should try that...but I feel sorry for you that it would be so easy for you to walk away from something or someone, just because it wasnt up to YOUR standards.


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## voivod

Sprite said:


> Maybe...just maybe...V IS incomplete without Beth. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. He may seem weak to you, or to other men, but from a woman's point of view, he is not weak.


this is the first time i have felt okay about beth completing me. thank you for that!

again, if i post the pictures from the hospital you'd understand


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## Sprite

I am glad I could be of help 

Men seem to have a terrible curse put on them at birth...it is called an ego. Then they are injected with testosterone to make it even worse/better(depending on your view point). Those men that can figure out how to control their ego through out their lives, are the men who will truelly make their spouses happy, and find true happiness for themselves.

Men are not supposed to have any weak spots. You are supposed to be "strong" and self sufficient, you are supposed to be selfish and greedy. You are not supposed to nurture, you are not supposed to show emotions, you are taught not to cry. That is what ego, and testosterone do for you. Not to mention your "pride"(which is often misunderstood). You are not supposed to admit that you might actually NEED someone to help you..and this is why you never ask for directions..lol. If you do such things, you are looked at in the eyes of the male species as weak, and I have often heard the term "p whipped", which is to be avoided at all costs. So men often rely on their egos to keep them out of those situations.

I am so sorry you guys have to deal with that, it makes me glad I am a woman  It is equally difficult for a woman who has not yet learned how to deal with that male ego. Sure we have our PMS, but we know that will go away in a few days...your ego never will.

But, if you can be man enough to admit that a woman holds the key to your whole being, you have broken from the mold. I will let you in on a little secret...us women like to know that we have that effect on you, and we like it even better when you can show us that you are ok with it. It helps us to believe that we are important to you.

Someone should make some manditory classes in high school on how to understand members of the opposite sex, how to tame the male ego, and how to coexsist with PMS. I am possitive we would see less and less bad relationships if we know what we are getting ourselves into ahead of time.


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## MarkTwain

Sprite-

I don't know how to even begin to address your points, you have so totally misunderstood me.

1)When I refer to despising mediocrity, I am meaning that every one can strive to attain their full potential. We are not all going to be Einsteins, but we can all be ourselves. 

2)You make out that ego is mostly a male thing. That is outrageous! Look at the fruits of ego, to know who has it. You will see it is distributed equally amongst the genders. Jealousy, envy anger, resentment, greed, avarice, hate - these are all manifestations of ego. We all have them in our lives.


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## Sprite

I am glad i misunderstood you, but you havent cleared up why that is so. 

Definitions of ego on the Web:

an inflated feeling of pride in your superiority to others 
self: your consciousness of your own identity 
(psychoanalysis) the conscious mind 

I agree that not just men have ego's, we all do. Its what we do with it that counts. Maybe I am just fortunate enough to not run across any females that allowed their ego to get in the way of how they react or behave in a situation.

If a man and woman have an arguement...who is the first to apologize? Who is the first to admit they are wrong? In my experiences, and not just my own relationships, but its the woman who puts her ego aside first. A man will be the last one to admit he was ever wrong.

Definitions of mediocrity on the Web:

averageness: ordinariness as a consequence of being average and not outstanding 
second-rater: a person of second-rate ability or value; "a team of aging second-raters"; "shone among the mediocrities who surrounded him" 

If I misunderstood, then maybe you didn't mean mediocrity in itself is what you despise. Someone can still be themselves and be mediocre at the same time. Does this mean you despise them?

Please enlighten me


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## MarkTwain

First of all, my definition of ego would be:
Our false sense of self - 

We set up a self that does not really exist, and the we try to protect it, feed it, love it, and in the process miss out on what is worthwhile in life.

Mediocrity.
Some people are born with huge talents. Some are born with very little talent. However each of us can strive to be the best we can. A road sweeper that does a good job is king of his patch. A banker that kids himself that credit can expand without end is a poor businessman.

There is both mediocrity and sparkling talent at every level of society. It has nothing to do with status or birth, and everything to do with the will to live with honour and dignity...

In fact speaking of talents, are you familiar with the Bible story - the parable of the talents? I equate mediocrity with the man who buried his lord's money in the ground.

We must we must we must, express ourselves to the best of our ability, or we live in vain.


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## Sprite

Thank you! That makes much more sense.

I was refering to more of a dictionary version of ego and mediocrity.

I do agree that we all must be ourselves, but often there are times when that ability is taken away from us. It takes a long time to find that again.


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## voivod

wow, what a whirlwind week for me! i started off last tuesday on cloud nine because of some conversation that me & beth had that culminated in a series of "honey's"...felt good to hear that word again...then dragged thru a week where we spent quite a bit of time together...then the infamous "you don't get it" conversation/emails...to today where conversation led to me being told "i never said never"...

i was also told that the reason she moved out/away was that i "had something going on in my head" that kept me from loving my family the way i should.

now that sounds pop-psychology to me, but at least it gives me a jumping off point to discussion. so that's where we'll begin when we sit down to "talk about it" probably friday...


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## Sprite

ooh, she opened up again...how nice

You have to understand that her reactions are on a day to day basis, and sometimes she may do things or say things that she doesnt really mean. This is GOOD. She is starting to get to the point where she can speak form her heart...not thinking about what she says before she says it. This is very VERY good! Your reaction is key here. 

I know what "those things going on in her head are"..you might not, but I do, and this is a good sign that she admitted that. It means she is thinking. Let her keep thinking, but now try to get her to think out loud.

I hope you like rollercoasters....lol!!!


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## voivod

so much for limited contact. nc and lc is not appropriate at this time. anyway, beth called, caught me off guard getting out of the shower. asked about dinner. i faded. said sure, ok. it was cool last night. plan was dinner and a movie, but beth is so into this "biggest loser" weight loss show that we watched it on tivo. the when it was over she said "sorry we didn't watch the movie" and that was that.

no where was there a hint of the "you don't get it" or i "blew it a long time ago" beth. crazy huh?


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## Sprite

ok, was Beth ever "allowed" to watch what she wanted on tv? or did you always assume control of the remote? I am assuming the later...thats just how it is. Let her watch what she wants to...it wont kill you right?

Don't ever feel like you "faded" or you "gave in" when she wants to see you. Sure, you should not be so accesable, and that is just an outsiders opinion....but after all, all you want to do is be with her


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## voivod

Sprite said:


> ok, was Beth ever "allowed" to watch what she wanted on tv? or did you always assume control of the remote? I am assuming the later...thats just how it is. Let her watch what she wants to...it wont kill you right?
> 
> Don't ever feel like you "faded" or you "gave in" when she wants to see you. Sure, you should not be so accesable, and that is just an outsiders opinion....but after all, all you want to do is be with her


oh man...i was always in control of the remote...so much so that we used to joke about how "good" i was at mentally judging how long commercial breaks were that i'd channel surf until commercials were over on what i/we were watching.

in addition, i was over there a few nights ago and some goofy movie was on that i liked and i said "hey kids, here's that movie i was telling you about" and beth said "no stupid childish movies" and that was that.

true, sprite. all i ever want is to be with beth. thank you for understanding that.


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## voivod

i got an idea of a way to get a "trial run" at reconciliation. but i have to go to work. i'll be back on tonite to run it by y'all, okay.


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## MarkTwain

V. When you go with the flow, and jump whenever Beth says jump, it feels warm and friendly, but it's not getting you anywhere fast. If you were to pull back, it would be harder for you, but would make a point. You blew the opportunity to withdraw after her lousy email. No doubt there will be another opportunity.


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> V. When you go with the flow, and jump whenever Beth says jump, it feels warm and friendly, but it's not getting you anywhere fast. If you were to pull back, it would be harder for you, but would make a point. You blew the opportunity to withdraw after her lousy email. No doubt there will be another opportunity.


i have to agree with you mt...although it will hurt to not be there when she asks (and she does ALOT) maybe now is that time...check this out. it seemed to make sense:

You want your ex back? Things to avoid certain doom! - eNotAlone

i want to make a point. i just don't want to screw it up. what if she DOES love me and my "pulling back" puts a nail in the coffin?


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## Sprite

Coming from a woman that was on the end Beth is.......pulling back is probably the worst thing you can do. In a way she is testing you to see exactly how much you will take...this is helping her to gain her trust back in you. She doesn't want to make you a door mat, she wants to see how dedicated you are to HER!


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## voivod

Sprite said:


> Coming from a woman that was on the end Beth is.......pulling back is probably the worst thing you can do. In a way she is testing you to see exactly how much you will take...this is helping her to gain her trust back in you. She doesn't want to make you a door mat, she wants to see how dedicated you are to HER!


was it you sprite, who said "i hope you like roller coaster rides"???

why would me pulling back be so bad? i have shown unbelievable dedication to her, i think.


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## Sprite

Yes, I did ask if you like rollercoaster rides  thats what you are in for...major ups and major down.

Yes you have shown dedication, but to her its not enough yet. 16 years for how many months now? does that seem "equal" to you?

Only you know if pulling back would be a good thing or not, I just don't want to see it backfire on you. If Dan had pulled back on me, I would have thought..."ok, he really doesnt mean it for the rest of his life...and only wants to show me he cares NOW to keep me with him"...to which I would say...bye!


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## voivod

sprite--

not pulling back...giving space ;-)

turns out i think it helps, as i got "honeyed" again tonight. remember, beth chooses her words carefully.


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## MarkTwain

Sprite said:


> If Dan had pulled back on me, I would have thought..."ok, he really doesnt mean it for the rest of his life...and only wants to show me he cares NOW to keep me with him"...to which I would say...bye!


Your case was different. Dan neglected you. With V, it was more a case of emotional overload and having to look after a control freak/alcoholic. So for him, pulling back will be a reminder that he does not NEEEEED Beth in the way he used to. However, the problem might be, he is a little needy.

You can't give one patient another patient's medicine. You may not have responded well to pull-back. Beth shows every sign of being the opposite to you. Gender is not a big enough thing to be the common denominator here.


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## Sprite

I agree MT, but there are many similarities. Beth was neglected also because she took the back seat to whatever addiction(wether it be alcohol or racing in my case) was present. The emotional overload was the same but with different issues. Dan too was a control freak. An addiction is an addiction no matter what the cause of it is, by substance or material things, they both do the same damage to the one on the opposite end.

No matter what the venue of the addiction was, the outcome was still the same. The treatment we got from our husbands was pretty much the same. 

In both cases the trust and respect has to be earned back, and we both have to KNOW that the behavior from the past will not be repeated.

There were times when Dan did pull back, and he was smart enough to know when it was needed or not. His problem, and V, I don't know if you do the same thing, but there were times I felt smothered because he would follow me around like a lost puppy. I felt like he was "checking up on me" when in actuality all he wanted to do was make up for lost time.

Give her space...absolutely...IF you honestly feel it is needed or you start seeing signs of her becoming withdrawn from you. Too much space is a bad thing in my opinion. You want to remind her that you are still there and will always be there for her if she needs you.

I am in no way telling V what he HAS to or should do...but...I do want to give him an idea of a possible outcome of certain behaviors. I think I am some what at an advantage because Dan tried everything in(and out) of the books, I only hope to give V an insight on what may or may not work.


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## MarkTwain

Sprite-

From having read many of your posts, I have to say, as a wife you must have seemed particularly... difficult to gauge? Having said that, I am in now way belittling the severity of his neglect. In the case of V Beth had all that PLUS the guy nearly died on her! So it must have been a bit of a roller-coaster ride for her.

When someone says give me space, and that still does not work, surely the only logical next step is to give them even more space.


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## voivod

sprite--

when i say "pulling back" it's probably not noticeable. i still have made myself available. it's my job as a husband trying to honor his wife daily. my oldest daughter called last night wanting me to trade her my truck for her car so the car could be fixed. no problem.

in the exchange beth and i had short conversation, which is where she called me "honey" again. she's the one who didn't want me to refer to her as "beautiful" so when she so purposefully said "honey" my spirits were raised.

she'll have another soccer game tonight, i'm sure we'll have conversation about that. it'll be interesting how she'll handle that. in addition, we're supposed to see a movie saturday night. i'll wait and see on that too.

again, it sure seems like she doesn't want the distance. i don't know. can you interpret with this information?


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## voivod

and today she accepted an invitation on a real live DATE this weekend?!?!? maybe she's noticing something...


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## voivod

date fizzled...beth called, said "i really wanna go, but i don't know if i can trust the kids home by themselves." the two younger ones are fighting something fierce lately, so as much as it made me sad (and pissed me off, why can't they GET ALONG!!!)

so we had dinner and a movie and cut the night short...


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## Sprite

MarkTwain said:


> Sprite-
> 
> From having read many of your posts, I have to say, as a wife you must have seemed particularly... difficult to gauge? Having said that, I am in now way belittling the severity of his neglect. In the case of V Beth had all that PLUS the guy nearly died on her! So it must have been a bit of a roller-coaster ride for her.
> 
> When someone says give me space, and that still does not work, surely the only logical next step is to give them even more space.


I agree with you. I was difficult to guage, and this was my own fault. I was raised to believe one thing, but then I grew up and had opinions of my own and started living by MY opinions and ideas...thats what brought us to this point finally.


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## Sprite

voivod said:


> sprite--
> 
> when i say "pulling back" it's probably not noticeable. i still have made myself available. it's my job as a husband trying to honor his wife daily. my oldest daughter called last night wanting me to trade her my truck for her car so the car could be fixed. no problem.
> 
> in the exchange beth and i had short conversation, which is where she called me "honey" again. she's the one who didn't want me to refer to her as "beautiful" so when she so purposefully said "honey" my spirits were raised.
> 
> she'll have another soccer game tonight, i'm sure we'll have conversation about that. it'll be interesting how she'll handle that. in addition, we're supposed to see a movie saturday night. i'll wait and see on that too.
> 
> again, it sure seems like she doesn't want the distance. i don't know. can you interpret with this information?


Ok, about the "space" thing. it is extremely hard to explain...we want space...but on our terms. The space we NEED is not necesarily physical space, but we do need this too. The space we THINK we need is emotional space. BUT....I honestly think if Dan gave me all the "emotional space" i needed, I would not have opened up to him like i have. Yes give her space, but don't let too much time go by where you don't ask her or confront her about something. This lets her know that you are paying attention.

The whole issue with the kids....DON'T read too much into that....as Mom's we have an issue with that. My kids are 15 and 17 and I had a hard time letting them stay by themselves for any length of time. I have learned that the kids may behave like they hate each other when we are around, but when we leave them by themselves for awhile, they get along famously. Its quite amazing. But, this is something Beth will have to work out on her own. We as Mom's always want to be there for our kids and we think of the worst possible outcome if we do leave them alone for a short time. It's because we are female and our kids are our life! I am amazed at how easy it is for Dan to just want to leave them alone and do stuff with just us, its easier for him because he is male and thinks differently about it. Let her take baby steps in this matter. Remember, everything up to this point has been for the kids, its hard to not continue that. When we do leave them(my feelings anyways) we feel like we are letting them down in a way, even tho we aren't, we just feel like we are. At least she did go, but it was cut short...the alternative would have been NOT to go at all...that is a baby step 

As far as telling her she is beautiful?? Here is MY take on that.
As much as you want to do things she wants you to do...DONT let her tell you what you can and can't say. If you are feeling it or thinking it, SAY IT! If she takes it badly, just tell her " it's how I see you at this moment, I should have told you that more often". Let her know that you are just stating your opinion and thats all! Remember, some woman have a hard time taking compliments, we are very critical of ourselves. Eventually it won't bother her so much


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## Sprite

Sometimes us woman say we want certain things, but in reality we don't know what we want or need. Refering to the space issue here!

I am sorry we can be complicated at times :/


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## voivod

Sprite said:


> Sometimes us woman say we want certain things, but in reality we don't know what we want or need. Refering to the space issue here!
> 
> I am sorry we can be complicated at times :/


don't you all know...there is a risk in asking for something you really don't want!?!?

i have a new resolve to NEVER give up. because i think somewhere in her being, beth still loves me. but what would happen if i DID give up because i misread her? or if dan gave up, because he misread YOU?


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## Sprite

There comes times through all this where you have to go with your heart and NOT listen to us. Only YOU know if you should listen to every word she says or not. You will know by the tone in her voice or her body language.

Remember that usually when we asked for stuff in the past....it took you how many times of asking to finally get it..this is the same thing. Sometimes we count on the fact that you DONT listen right away...so, we keep asking for space until we get you to the point of space we need. This probably doesnt make sense!

Ok, think of it this way....we are trying to hook up a trailer to a hitch on a truck.... we women are the ones guiding you while you are behind the wheel...we say "you have 3 feet"..you go 2...we get a disgruntled look on our face because you didnt trust our judgement....so we motion with our hands exactly how much space is left to go....you back up again...going slower this time...we start making the motion of how much space is left smaller and smaller as you get closer....you dont quite understand our hand signals, so you put the car in park and get out, come look and see how much space is left(we see this as you still dont trust our judgement and you still are not listening to me)...then get back in and continue backing up to what YOU think you need to move...eventually we get the hitch and ball connected, but only after we work at it together. Make better sense? I hope so....lol


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## voivod

Sprite said:


> There comes times through all this where you have to go with your heart and NOT listen to us. Only YOU know if you should listen to every word she says or not. You will know by the tone in her voice or her body language.
> 
> Remember that usually when we asked for stuff in the past....it took you how many times of asking to finally get it..this is the same thing. Sometimes we count on the fact that you DONT listen right away...so, we keep asking for space until we get you to the point of space we need. This probably doesnt make sense!
> 
> Ok, think of it this way....we are trying to hook up a trailer to a hitch on a truck.... we women are the ones guiding you while you are behind the wheel...we say "you have 3 feet"..you go 2...we get a disgruntled look on our face because you didnt trust our judgement....so we motion with our hands exactly how much space is left to go....you back up again...going slower this time...we start making the motion of how much space is left smaller and smaller as you get closer....you dont quite understand our hand signals, so you put the car in park and get out, come look and see how much space is left(we see this as you still dont trust our judgement and you still are not listening to me)...then get back in and continue backing up to what YOU think you need to move...eventually we get the hitch and ball connected, but only after we work at it together. Make better sense? I hope so....lol


sprite--

you make a good point...now, i'm tired...i'm trying soooo hard. i feel like retitling the thread "should i give up?" but that's already been taken.

when beth moved out, her words were "we're never getting back together" and "i don't want you." of course a ton of things have happened since then, including pleasant times, some growth, and (i believe) a basis for a starting point for our love to re-occur.

how do i just "go with my heart" as you say? i don't weant to give up. but today, i'm tired.

EDIT AFTER POSTING: just got off the phone with a new counselor. i gotta get back on track. i've been so friggin depressed lately because of this. i am sorry to say this, but i understand now when i read about suicidal thoughts.


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## voivod

the "suicidal thoughts" thing sounded drama-ish...sorry, i was saying i do understand how people get to feeling that way.

new counselor said i've been making progress on my own!!! but he thinks i can use his help.

progress included stupid things. like i used to buy the newspaper every morning to check the legal notices to see if a divorce was filed. i no longer do that. he said as silly as it sounds, its a sign of my confidence in the future.

today i'm more sad that things arent going toward the positive faster. today i'm not sad because things are not going toward the negative. he said any negative i have is built myself, rather than fact-based. 

all that is more burns cbt self esteem crap, but it's working!

i've seen a few sad posts here lately. i'm sorry for all, but am amazed at the strength of the posters!


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## Sprite

It's ok to sound drama-ish, you are going through a lot right now. Keep your head up tho, you will get through this. BUT, you have to allow time to take its course.

The counselor is right about the negative being self imposed. Stop thinking too hard or dwelling on something Beth said in the past. You have to remember that people say things all the time that they are feeling at that moment in time. It doesn't mean thats how they feel or will feel for the rest of their lives. On days like this, you have to concentrate on the good things..the "honies" she gave you or a look she might have given you that was positive, the fact she went out with you even though it was cut short the other night.

It's ok to be tired too, but remind yourself of how many years Beth gave and tried. She got tired too, so now you can understand how she feels better , thats a positive  When you get tired, take a break from it. Don't try to work at anything for a day....just be...let the day take you, and see where you end up.

I am sure you have heard the saying about how things will get worse before they get better...consider yourself at the hitting rock bottom part! When you can sympathize and relate to other peoples feelings about suicide....you have hit rock bottom..there is no where else to go but up. Right now you feel there is no hope, but there is...please don't give up. You are going to have days when you feel like that, and it's ok. You have to find a way to NOT let it control you.

Each day you wake up, you should think positive. You have more positive than you may realize. Each day is a new day and a new chance. Beth still talks to you, you woke up alive, Beth hasn't filed for Divorce, Your kids still love you(Beth does too, but you may not think this), you have been given another day to try to make things right, you have conquered and controlled one of the things that put negative in your life(reading the legal notices). You have come a long way in understanding what went wrong and understanding yourself and the person YOU want to be.....you should feel good about this everyday you wake up. If you have days when you feel that depressed, do something that will take your mind off it. Go for a walk and take the time to notice the flowers blooming, or listen to the neighborhood dogs barking at each other, pay attention to the little things we take for granted...you will get home feeling much better about the day.

You WILL get through this V  But I think sometimes you might be trying to hard..just let things flow and they will come naturally.


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## voivod

Sprite said:


> Each day is a new day and a new chance. Beth still talks to you, you woke up alive, Beth hasn't filed for Divorce, Your kids still love you(Beth does too, but you may not think this), you have been given another day to try to make things right, you have conquered and controlled one of the things that put negative in your life(reading the legal notices). You have come a long way in understanding what went wrong and understanding yourself and the person YOU want to be......


i want to believe she still loves me sprite! but you're right, new day...a chance...i have been massively challenged!



Sprite said:


> Go for a walk and take the time to notice the flowers blooming, or listen to the neighborhood dogs barking at each other, pay attention to the little things we take for granted...you will get home feeling much better about the day.


y'know...take a walk...i never thought i'd hear those words directed at me...i CAN walk!!



Sprite said:


> You WILL get through this V  But I think sometimes you might be trying to hard..just let things flow and they will come naturally.


trying TOO hard??? i'd like to know the definition of THAT!


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## Sprite

Ok, i don't know if I can explain the trying too hard thing...but it is possible. We get so tired of working at something that sometimes we feel burnt out, especially when things are not going the way we want them to. Give it a rest.

Its like building a 1000 piece puzzle, we work so long and hard at it to get it finished that we begin to get frustrated when we cant find that one piece we are looking for. If you step away from it for a day, when you go back to it, you find that piece almost immediately.


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## voivod

sprite--

i had an epiphonous moment after reading your last post. you're right, burnt out. it's not that i'm tired of trying. it's that i'm tired of waiting to get what i want. so i started something a little new.

i took this "no contact" thing to a new level. for us, its sorta "modified no contact." since we've had so much contact since the breakup, and since some contact is necessary...i'm only allowing for the necessary contact. and you know what, pther than little stretches where i will always definitely miss beth, it's been okay. and i think she's noticing too. because the contact SHE has made has been more cordial, nicer...well, let's just say i can tell the difference.


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## Sprite

Absense makes the heart grow fonder  I am glad she is noticing!


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## voivod

she's swung back my direction. hate to sound so "me" versus "her", but...more to come...nc is strong...maybe absence DOES make the heart grow fonder...


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## voivod

dinner and tv last night, "field trip" (day hike at an historical site near us) followed by relaxing tv viewing. tonight i swear felt like she was going to ask me to stay there and sleep tonight. i mean i was NERVOUS! 

beth told me how good my new haircut looked today...unprompted...now i'll crawl back into my nc hole.
wow! things feel good right now.

ADDED/EDIT SINCE POSTING: there is no way she has lost love for me, or maybe it's coming back. i mean, i am going to walk delicately, on egg shells so to speak, not wanting to upset the apple cart. but yesterday and friday were absolutely wonderful. she has to know how good that made me feel. i walked the hills and ran a bit almost as good as pre-stroke. i asked her if she had any doubts that i would make it back. she said absolutely none because "we need you." whaaaat? my son brought up living back in the house, she did not say no or never. again, delicately, walk on egg shells, baby steps, etc. but this weekend has been by far the best in quite some time.


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## Sprite

Be carefull of the walking on egg shells. This back fired on Dan and took us a few steps backwards. I guess it all depends on what your term of "walking on egg shells" means. To him, it meant backing off and not being so open to me. He stopped himself when he wanted to make a joke and stopped being so open and honest with me. It didn't last for long, but it wasnt helpful. He thought this was was I needed as part of the space I was asking for..when in actuality, all I wanted him to do was stop asking me "where you going" when I was obviously heading to the bathroom, or "who you talking to" when I was on the phone, or "what you doing" every time I went out to the rec room to go on my computer. It made me feel like I had to answer to him for every little thing that I did again. Not good!


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## voivod

Sprite said:


> Be carefull of the walking on egg shells. This back fired on Dan and took us a few steps backwards. I guess it all depends on what your term of "walking on egg shells" means. To him, it meant backing off and not being so open to me. He stopped himself when he wanted to make a joke and stopped being so open and honest with me. It didn't last for long, but it wasnt helpful. He thought this was was I needed as part of the space I was asking for..when in actuality, all I wanted him to do was stop asking me "where you going" when I was obviously heading to the bathroom, or "who you talking to" when I was on the phone, or "what you doing" every time I went out to the rec room to go on my computer. It made me feel like I had to answer to him for every little thing that I did again. Not good!


nah. the old me wouldve been always asking "where you going" or "who was that on the phone." i am not that guy anymore. thankfully. it saves my own sanity. walking on egg shells like asking only the questions i know the answer to. thats where i am now.

sprite, you said in an earlier post that "beth does too" (still loves me) but you never said how you figured that. it would make my day to jut know how you come to that conclusion. it would make things so much easier to know a third party thought that and how. can you explain, please.

EDIT SINCE POST: actually, i'd love to hear a woman's perspective on this: i am truly more in love than when i originally fell for beth. i don't know how that happens, but wow i really love her. i would like to know, if you are female and have been hurt, how on earth you'd take it if your man told you how he loves you more than ever. i don't wanna be too forward or appear too pushy, but i gotta let her know exactly how i feel, or i'll burst!


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## Sprite

You have to remember that this is almost like a new relationship to her. She knows you love her, but because of what has happened in the past, she has a hard time believing its for real. She still questions the sincerity of it all. This will take some time for her to realize.

Don't just ask questions that you know the answer to, ask the ones you don't know the answers. You will find yourself learning more about her and who she is every day. Just don't ask questions that will make her feel she has to make a decision. Dan does this all the time. HIm and the boys will have a discussion at work, then he will come home and ask me what I think of it....wow...thats new....he actually WANTS to hear my opinion for a change. It feels good 

I know Beth still loves you because of her actions. A woman who does NOT love you , will NOT keep inviting you over. She would only let you be aware of family outings and events, and not try to make an attempt to include you in them. If she did NOT love you, she would NOT be throwing a few "honies" your way....she could stop herself from doing that if she wanted to. (this is assuming she isnt the type of person that uses terms of endearment with everyone she knows). If she did NOT love you, she would certainly NEVER mention to the kids the possibility of moving back in together. She KNOWS that certain things she says will get back to you...she wants you to know these things, but can't quite tell you herself, so she "lets it slip" to the kids, and they let you know  I KNOW she still loves you because if she did NOT, she would have filed for divorce already. She wants this to work, she wants you to not give up on her, she wants to keep you far enough at a distance to heal herself, but close enough to keep her comfortable. Believe it or not, you do give her comfort, just being there for her. She won't tell you this, but believe it! She wants some space and time to figure things out in her head, but she is tossing you enough bones to keep you hoping for the future. She has hope too, but until she deals with her own personal issues, she will never be able to give herself completely to you again. She knows this and is working on it, even tho again, she won't admit that to you. If she did NOT love you, you would have already figured that out by now. You would be able to "feel" it. But she isn't cold with you when you are together, at least it doesn't sound like she is for the most part. She may have her days, but, in general, she treats you in a caring way..right? If she absolutely did not feel any love for you, she would not treat you that way and all interaction with you would feel to you like a business deal. Does it feel that way? I am betting not.

Think back when you were a teenager in school. You KNEW when someone didnt want to date you...even tho you may have liked them and wanted to date them...right? Its the same thing here 

By all means, my opinion is if you are feeling it, let her know. Even tho you may not get the response you are looking for, always tell her honestly how you feel. Life is too short to keep things inside! Tell her exactly what you just said! "I don't mean to put you on the spot if this is how it feels, but I can't let another day go by without telling you how I feel" Let her know you don't expect her to respond...you simply have to tell her what you feel inside..and let her know you feel like you will burst if you don't! I can't wait to hear how she responds to this  I am keeping my fingers crossed!!!!!


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## voivod

sprite--

i had so many chances today...wish i had seen this first! we had lunch today. great conversation, eye contact, laughter, she's telling me about the bachelorette party she's trying to put together for a co-worker (all very innocent and cute), we're having a great time.

then tonight we had the end of season soccer party for my son. no where for me to sit (i got there late) so she hand-signals me to come sit next to her. it was so very affectionate. cool.

only yucky feeling thing was my boy's first baseball practice tonight. she referred to me as "joey's dad." ouch. she has said "my husband" so often in the past, even during the separation.

all in all however it was a great day. thanks for the eye opening post.


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## Sprite

Ok, don't read too much into the "joey's dad" instead of "my husband" thing. It depends on who she was talking to and what the circumstances were in the situation. Was it someone new that did not know you were Joey's Dad? Don't take it as a negative thing. Sometimes we as women are more proud of the fact that you are the childs dad instead of our husband. As an example, the child gets complimented on his good behavior or maybe a great play he made in the game...we introduce you as Dad instead of our husband... because, that implies that you had something to do with the way he was raised and it was part your doing that he was so good at what ever it was he did. As Mom's, there is nothing better in the world than getting a compliment about your child from someone outside the friend and family circle. We want you to be able to share in the responsability for that  Know what I mean?

I am glad she is sharing the party planning with you, are you making it a point to NOT be jealous? This is an opportunity for you to ask if there is anything you can do to help her with it, AND to show her you won't get jealous over it.

I am so happy to hear you had a great day, that always lifts my spirits


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## voivod

sprite--
yeah, i get you about the "joey's dad" thing. i just always hope to hear words of hope. i am afraid sometime shes trying out new phrases...i am sure i sound like a lunatic...sorry...

your paragraph on how you can tell bethie still loves me was cool...she was sooo much "there" with me yesterday...keeps me hoping...

i don't know why, but today i woke up feeling real down about things... i don't know why. i shouldn't. yesterday was so cool. even got a random text from her last night.


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## Sprite

Keep those feelings of her being "there" with you all day today. Think possitive  it really does do wonders for the soul.

You feel down because yesterday was such a great day. You want it to be like that always and forever, but it isn't. Hang in there V! 

You do NOT sound like a lunatic! You are not always going to hear the words you want, and you have to be ok with that. Just concentrate on when you DO hear the words you like  Besides, if you always hear the words or phrases you want to hear, it becomes old hat and doesn't mean as much when you finally do hear them. This makes us take things for granted again, and they become habit instead of coming from the heart...Beth knows that!

What can you do to get yourself out of your funk today? Any ideas?


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## voivod

sprite--
get myself out of the funk...yep. take a celexa and go to work. something to keep my mind occupied.

i keep reminding myself that every time we're together, something is telling her "hey, i like this" and enough of those moments will get us where we need to be.


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## dcrim

Voivod, I just read the parts about suicidal thought. I've been there. Twice! Almost three times! 

I know sometimes life hurts very much. 

My xgf dumped me (end of March) and married her neighbor (for his money). I found out about all of that within a week. 

I made the remark that I was going to "join" my brothers (two of them dead). She called the cops who came to check on me. Obviously I didn't do it.  

But when I found out all of this (late April), I didn't want to continue living either. Can we say Xanax (and LOTS of rum!) is your friend?  

I'm living day by day, slowly getting over it all. Breathe in, breathe out. Repeat as needed. 

Sometimes life sucks. Other times, it just sucks differently. Just hang in there dude, please. Life will get better. This is what I believe. This is what I'm hoping for, what I hope to look forward to. It's the only hope I can cling to right now. 

Life will get better...someday. Just hang in there and wait for it. It may take months...but you'll heal. That's what keeps me going.


----------



## voivod

dcrim--

yeah man, i saw your posts. what a screw job. i can't believe what was done to you. that's unbelievable. i hope thing do get better for you. you have a good head on your shoulders. you'll do fine.

i had a pretty good day today. i'm back at my old dealership. sold 2 cars today and now have 3 1/2 in 3 days. beth and i had a little impromptu dinner tonight and she dragged out the "miracle" video. that's the one about the 1980 us olympic hockey gold medal victory. the year we beat the russians. beth knows i'm a big fan of the coach of that team (herb brooks). in fact, so much so that she used it as an ispirational message during my stroke recovery. anyway, we watched it tonight and both got tears in our eyes.

also, she knows me so well. she skipped going to her co-workers bachelorette party last night. i said "i hope you didn't skip it because of me. i'm not mr. jealous anymore."

she said, "no, i didn't really wanna go."

hmph...anyway. things look good for the long term for us. i just keep doing my thing. may 19th is 1 year of sobriety and she's so cool with that. 

anyway..keep your head down and your powder dry bro. things will be good for you.


----------



## Sprite

GRATS V ON YOUR FIRST FULL YEAR OF SOBRIETY!!!!!!!

Will you and Beth be celebrating???

Oh, don't let the fact that you sold 3 cars this week go to your head. I am sure this would have driven you in the past to work harder and sell more, cuz that wasnt enough.....dont let it happen again. Stay true to what REALLY matters  (I am sure you have no intention of doing that, I just want to throw a reminder out there)


----------



## voivod

Sprite said:


> GRATS V ON YOUR FIRST FULL YEAR OF SOBRIETY!!!!!!!
> 
> Will you and Beth be celebrating???
> 
> Oh, don't let the fact that you sold 3 cars this week go to your head. I am sure this would have driven you in the past to work harder and sell more, cuz that wasnt enough.....dont let it happen again. Stay true to what REALLY matters  (I am sure you have no intention of doing that, I just want to throw a reminder out there)


sprite--

haha! selling 3 cars wasn't enough...so since i knew that, i took the day kinda trying to NOT sell one. guess what, i sold one anyway! didn't work harder, just got lucky! oh well...

i don't make a habit out of celebrating my sobriety. it's like the serial killer celebrating NOT killing someone. it doesn't feel right.

thank you for the post.

btw--i let beth down a little by being unreliable about something on sunday. that crushed me! i hate letting her down or disappointing her.


----------



## Sprite

you should be celebrating in one way or another...sobriety can not be compared to a serial killer in my opinion...you have a reason to be proud of yourself.

What did you do Sunday? And was it something that was out of your control? Or was it something that was well deserved?


----------



## voivod

Sprite said:


> What did you do Sunday? And was it something that was out of your control? Or was it something that was well deserved?


i told the kids i was coming to get them and we'd grab a movie. i got home from work EXHAUSTED and fell asleep on the couch. didn't wake up until 9:15. text from beth said "so unreliable." crap, i've been mr reliability since the sobriety, never slip up, always hit my responsibilities.


----------



## Sprite

Even if Beth didnt understand, did the kids? Sometimes they have to allow things like that to happen without getting all bent out of shape about it. We cant all expect each other to be "perfect" or mess up once in a whiole. don't beat yourself up over it. It was a simple mistake....next time set your alarm clock 

Personally I think that was a little unfair of Beth. Did she at least let you explain?


----------



## voivod

Sprite said:


> Even if Beth didnt understand, did the kids? Sometimes they have to allow things like that to happen without getting all bent out of shape about it. We cant all expect each other to be "perfect" or mess up once in a whiole. don't beat yourself up over it. It was a simple mistake....next time set your alarm clock
> 
> Personally I think that was a little unfair of Beth. Did she at least let you explain?


yes, the kids were cool.

yeah, my being exhausted was a result of making about 13-hundred dollars by hustling cars that day!

she's giving an excuse to herself to label me. "unreliable" is a label that hits home. i was unreliable for years. now my job is to be tangibly reilable again for awhile.

she has suffered for years with pms. actually they have a new name for the type of pms she has. call it extreme b1tc#yness.

unfair? like my counselor says: "do you want to be right, or married?"


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> yeah, my being exhausted was a result of making about 13-hundred dollars by hustling cars that day!


V, it's great that you are back on the top of your form. Selling is a kind of magic isn't it?


----------



## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> V, it's great that you are back on the top of your form. Selling is a kind of magic isn't it?


yes, it is mark twain. and right now, i'm david copperfield. everything i touch is selling!

it's like this: i got the house back. saved it from the brink of foreclosure. so now i'm doing things to spruce it up. that makes me feel good, better than the gym. so i go about business in a happy mood. that is really helping in the selling cars department. but i feel it's only temporary.

beth and my family are my life. nothing makes me happier. i fear that if this thing doesn't progress, i'm gonna lose traction.


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> beth and my family are my life.


Well that's where you are going wrong. You will be bringing more to the table if you work on being independently [emotionally] wealthy.


----------



## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> Well that's where you are going wrong. You will be bringing more to the table if you work on being independently [emotionally] wealthy.


mt--

i am not sure what you mean about me "going wrong." i read a lot of crap about making sure that one is taking care of oneself. how you don't need someone else to complete you. i think "oh, really? let me introduce you to ME before december 18th, 1988."

i have no problem being "independently (emotionally) wealthy." if career, possessions, friends can help in that area, why not my spouse and family? why can they not be a part of that formula?


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> mt--
> 
> i am not sure what you mean about me "going wrong." i read a lot of crap about making sure that one is taking care of oneself. how you don't need someone else to complete you. i think "oh, really? let me introduce you to ME before december 18th, 1988."
> 
> i have no problem being "independently (emotionally) wealthy." if career, possessions, friends can help in that area, why not my spouse and family? why can they not be a part of that formula?


Because you come across as somewhat incomplete even as a single man. You have lost something, and it would be better if you could regain it before or during your relationship with Beth. But you can't get it *from *Beth. She does not hold what you are feeling the lack of. She would be like a very nice pain-killer tablet. But she won't cure the problem. Otherwise if she was the cure, she would have cured you in the past, and you would not have needed booze or a stroke.

I could go on, but I don't want to make you cry.


----------



## voivod

yeah, maybe she wasn't the cure, but she sure was therapeutic. it sucks that i needed to have a stroke to get straightened out. but without the stroke, i would have lost my leg to amputation because of the brown recluse bite, so my lifestyle wasn't the only thing that was positively affected. i would have never seen a doctor for the poisoning i was getting from the infection due to the spider bite.

check my pics, i'll show you what i'm talking about.

hey, go on. dont worry about making me cry. i don't do that so much lately.


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> hey, go on. dont worry about making me cry. i don't do that so much lately.


Well, this is only my guess but I wonder if Beth senses what I was talking about in my last post, and she no longer wants to be in that role. 

To really love her you must first set her free. That is to say, abandon your addiction to her. This is not easy for any of us to do. But everything you say points to this dependency, and I wonder if Beth fears a resumption of it.

Just my rambling - I may be off beam.


----------



## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> Well, this is only my guess but I wonder if Beth senses what I was talking about in my last post, and she no longer wants to be in that role.
> 
> To really love her you must first set her free. That is to say, abandon your addiction to her. This is not easy for any of us to do. But everything you say points to this dependency, and I wonder if Beth fears a resumption of it.
> 
> Just my rambling - I may be off beam.


i'm 100 % sure she doesn't WANT to be in that role. but that's what she IS marktwain...a supercaretaker...she absolutely NEEDS that dynamic in her life, whether she likes it or not. there are several different characters that live in an alcoholic household. she grew up in one and adapted for survival. of course it's terrible, but it's ingrained. it's what she is. it's why i have a hard time with her mom and stepdad. they know what they were and take zero responsibility for it.

just my ramblings...


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> i'm 100 % sure she doesn't WANT to be in that role. but that's what she IS marktwain...a supercaretaker...she absolutely NEEDS that dynamic in her life, whether she likes it or not. there are several different characters that live in an alcoholic household. she grew up in one and adapted for survival. of course it's terrible, but it's ingrained. it's what she is.


No, that's not who she really *is*, that's just a role. 

Like any actor, we sometimes get tired of the plot, and the character we find ourselves playing.. 

She may well have started to wake up to what she was doing. She may not want that any more.


----------



## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> No, that's not who she really *is*, that's just a role.
> 
> Like any actor, we sometimes get tired of the plot, and the character we find ourselves playing..
> 
> She may well have started to wake up to what she was doing. She may not want that any more.


oh, i get what you're saying marktwain...

she does not want to be that person any more.

she's taken many steps toward trying to be *not* the person who gets walked all over.

which is why she has concocted an exit strategy from her work because her supervisors are too "stupid"...

which is why she is changing banks...because they don't allow for a "grace period" when she posts a bill online...

which is why she stiffed her landlord out of deposit money for the cat, because he's a "companion pet" that she thinks legally separates him from any other feline...

oh, she's gonna show the world that she's not gonna take any more crap allright. regardless of what put her in the mental state she's in (her f-ed up family).

sorry..vent...vent...vent.


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> oh, she's gonna show the world that she's not gonna take any more crap allright. regardless of what put her in the mental state she's in (her f-ed up family).
> 
> sorry..vent...vent...vent.


I hear ya!
Perhaps she'll calm down once she gets it out of her system.


----------



## Sprite

MarkTwain said:


> Well that's where you are going wrong. You will be bringing more to the table if you work on being independently [emotionally] wealthy.


Isnt this why you are where you are at now? Because you WERE "independantly wealthy"? Just the opinion of a woman on the opposite end.

I think Beth is the cure, but it's like every thing else in life. Things happen for a reason, but we may not see those reasons until later down the road. Beth was put in place with you, to help you with your alcohol issue, you were put into place to help her with the issues she is having now. I see her as your "cure" because it is her that makes you NOT want to revert back to old habits. 

Again, there is nothing wrong with feeling like another human being makes you whole, and MT, I wish you could exerience that.


----------



## MarkTwain

Sprite said:


> Again, there is nothing wrong with feeling like another human being makes you whole, and MT, I wish you could exerience that.


I love being married, especially to my particular wife. And I could not imagine being single. But if we seek another human being to make us whole at a basic level, it can lead to a rough ride at times.



Sprite said:


> I think Beth is the cure, but it's like every thing else in life. Things happen for a reason, but we may not see those reasons until later down the road. Beth was put in place with you, to help you with your alcohol issue, you were put into place to help her with the issues she is having now. I see her as your "cure" because it is her that makes you NOT want to revert back to old habits.


This is an interpretation of reality. It does not make it true. And the predictive element has yet to be tested. Still, it would be nice if they did get back together. That's what we're all rooting for


----------



## voivod

Sprite said:


> I know Beth still loves you because of her actions. A woman who does NOT love you , will NOT keep inviting you over. She would only let you be aware of family outings and events, and not try to make an attempt to include you in them. If she did NOT love you, she would NOT be throwing a few "honies" your way....she could stop herself from doing that if she wanted to. (this is assuming she isnt the type of person that uses terms of endearment with everyone she knows). If she did NOT love you, she would certainly NEVER mention to the kids the possibility of moving back in together. She KNOWS that certain things she says will get back to you...she wants you to know these things, but can't quite tell you herself, so she "lets it slip" to the kids, and they let you know  I KNOW she still loves you because if she did NOT, she would have filed for divorce already. She wants this to work, she wants you to not give up on her, she wants to keep you far enough at a distance to heal herself, but close enough to keep her comfortable. Believe it or not, you do give her comfort, just being there for her. She won't tell you this, but believe it! She wants some space and time to figure things out in her head, but she is tossing you enough bones to keep you hoping for the future. She has hope too, but until she deals with her own personal issues, she will never be able to give herself completely to you again. She knows this and is working on it, even tho again, she won't admit that to you. If she did NOT love you, you would have already figured that out by now. You would be able to "feel" it. But she isn't cold with you when you are together, at least it doesn't sound like she is for the most part. She may have her days, but, in general, she treats you in a caring way..right? If she absolutely did not feel any love for you, she would not treat you that way and all interaction with you would feel to you like a business deal. Does it feel that way? I am betting not.


that is the reason i am not giving up!

i did end up celebrating one year of sobriety. beth says "you're doing it for you, celebrate any way you want."

so last night i went out and played poker with the boys.

on the way, beth called and asked my opinion on an email she was writing to a supervisor. i know what she's doing. i just wish it would all come in one lump.

we ARE going to make it. no matter how long it takes.


----------



## Feelingalone

V,

Keep going strong. You are an inspiration to me. Like you I'm working on myself although my issues pale in comparison to what you have overcome. I too am dealing with resentment from my wife and the wall that she built around her because of me. I'm going to have to bring it down brick by brick like you are doing. I feel down too and over analyze every little thing which can drive me crazy. We both need to relax about it, as hard as it is.

Congratulations on the 1st anniversary. Hope the boys let you win.


----------



## Rhea

V, 

You my dear are an inspiration to me as well  Stay strong buddy. You give me the hope that I too can stay strong and "eventually" work things out w/my hubby. I love him dearly and the love you consistantly show your wife gives me the fuel to keep showing it to my husband no matter how hard the times are. I love him very much and say I'll fight till I have no option of fighting any more but there are days that I often wonder if he finds me a fool to keep knocking know what I mean?

Anyway, I always check your forum for updates it's like reading a book and not being able to wait for the next chapter 

Rooting for you and your family. 

Much love.


----------



## Sprite

voivod said:


> that is the reason i am not giving up! *GOOD, don't ever give up unless she asks you to.*
> 
> i did end up celebrating one year of sobriety. beth says "you're doing it for you, celebrate any way you want." *Didn't she want to celebrate with you?*
> so last night i went out and played poker with the boys.
> 
> on the way, beth called and asked my opinion on an email she was writing to a supervisor. i know what she's doing. i just wish it would all come in one lump. *Baby steps V, baby steps...it can't all come in one lump.*
> we ARE going to make it. no matter how long it takes.


I am assuming that when you say you know what she is doing, you are talking about her letting you back in. I am glad to hear she is asking your opinion of things. It's great when you can work together as a team, isn't it? Just don't lose sight of the big picture if/when she has a bad day or weekend.


----------



## voivod

Sprite said:


> I am assuming that when you say you know what she is doing, you are talking about her letting you back in. I am glad to hear she is asking your opinion of things. It's great when you can work together as a team, isn't it? Just don't lose sight of the big picture if/when she has a bad day or weekend.


yeah sprite--

when i say i know what she is doing, i mean i know she is letting me closer, helping to confirm her feelings, seeing if our thoughts are compatable...

lately if you don't see a post from me, it's because things are going well...i don't wanna harsh anyone else with my good stuff...but we spent several really swell hours together saturday. we are together, except that we arent living together...we could easily become very intimate at ther drop of a hat...i just re-read an email i got from lee baucom (a very good relationship counselor--google him!!!) that said we are NOT separated, that she wants to stay "on the scene" and wait to see if things can stay good....



"and if you don't expect too much from me, you might not be let down..."---gin blossoms, "hey jealousy"


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> we could easily become very intimate at ther drop of a hat...


I just dropped my hat


----------



## marina72

I have kept up with your story voivod, and I am wishing you nothing but the best of luck. Your tenacity is amazing. To try with that level of resolve and strength takes a level of commitment that is difficult to maintain. Says a lot about your character. 

Keep on keeping on...


----------



## voivod

marina72 said:


> I have kept up with your story voivod, and I am wishing you nothing but the best of luck. Your tenacity is amazing. To try with that level of resolve and strength takes a level of commitment that is difficult to maintain. Says a lot about your character.
> 
> Keep on keeping on...


got a crazy call from beth today from her work...she say's "do you remember when we brought (our first daughter) home and you tried to put together the cradle and got all pissed off?"

"yeah," i laughed.

beth said "holly's dad just threw a fit last night over something little and she was telling me about it. isn't it crazy you used to be just like that."

"yeah," i said, "now don't get me started. i just put together a new lawnmower."

"did you get mad and throw something?" beth asked.

"no, i didn't. that was me from 20 years ago you ***** (said playfully)"

we had a great laugh over it and she called me later and said how nice it was to have a *husband* that she could talk to like that.

little things...baby steps...


----------



## marina72

Totally right! baby steps! I think you two will make it... sounds like you two are still very close friends, after all this time. That's a solid foundation from which to build anew... 

Peace!


----------



## Sprite

Thats great V, but dont go thinking that its all "done". she is still going to have bad days..just let them happen, let her vent, and always be there for her.

Best of Luck, you deserve this


----------



## voivod

Sprite said:


> Thats great V, but dont go thinking that its all "done". she is still going to have bad days..just let them happen, let her vent, and always be there for her.
> 
> Best of Luck, you deserve this


oh, i know it's not all "done" by a longshot...we have a longggg way to go...

there will always be bad days with her...she has some mental thing that tends to place blame somewhere else...it's the banks fault...it's her bosses fault...it's my fault...until she gets counseling of her own and is honest in her disclosures, she will not learn to deal with issues.

and i will always be there to catch her when she falls...i love her. and am committed to her.


----------



## voivod

marina72 said:


> Totally right! baby steps! I think you two will make it... sounds like you two are still very close friends, after all this time. That's a solid foundation from which to build anew...
> 
> Peace!


marina,

yes we are very close friends...but i don't think i'm being relegated to the "friend zone." i'm rebuilding our friendship, for sure, but the hardest thing is i am so attracted to her, i want to return to ther intimacy that we had...very intense intimacy...but i don't dare force the issue...so far everything that my most recent counselor has been spot-on as far as us getting closer and eventually back together. including the moment when she denies any love for me or feelings.

it's so interesting. maybe sprite can explain it...but women want to control and will tell themselves AND US things to put us off the track...just to control the situation. they HATE it when we knoe they love us, because they think they're not supposed to....sprite...tell 'em...


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> i want to return to ther intimacy that we had...very intense intimacy...but i don't dare force the issue...


What about the flirting V? Don't forget, that if you don't make at least a few moves, she might think you've lost your appetite for her. I know, I know - you can't win


----------



## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> What about the flirting V? Don't forget, that if you don't make at least a few moves, she might think you've lost your appetite for her. I know, I know - you can't win


flirting...yes...eye contact, words, more "checking her out"...mt, last night was as close as i've been to asking her if i could "sleep over" since the separation...and i get the feeling it wasn't just in my mind...we're getting closer...keep me in your thoughts...i think i have a shot.


----------



## toomanytears

Sounds like things are on the right track for you voivod....keep up the good work!


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> flirting...yes...eye contact, words, more "checking her out"...mt, last night was as close as i've been to asking her if i could "sleep over" since the separation...and i get the feeling it wasn't just in my mind...we're getting closer...keep me in your thoughts...i think i have a shot.


Cool. Attraction is always sexual in nature. Keep building up the steam.


----------



## voivod

if there are any patterns...it's one where the closer i seem to get the further she seems to push away, or not make the effort. we have so many benchmarks in our life together. it makes it hard to deal with. a day might pass that has no real siginificance, but to us it did, and so if it is missed (not recognized) it feels like rejection. i'm going through a bad stretch right now. sorry.


----------



## voivod

i have to admit, i made a huge mistake a few days ago...it really has me in the ditch...i hurt my back at work...pretty bad...so a co-worker offered me a "pain-killer"...i suspected it was prescription, so i hesitated...then took it...it whacked me out for three days...i feel totally guilty about it. i asked him again what it was...he said "norco", which i gather is prescription. i am scared to look it up, because i liked it. if it is narcotic, i feel like i broke my vow of sobriety. anyway, that's where i'm at.


----------



## sirch

HAPPY BIRTHDAY! Just thought I would try and cheer ya up voivod.


----------



## voivod

sirch said:


> HAPPY BIRTHDAY! Just thought I would try and cheer ya up voivod.


hey, thank ya man!


----------



## voivod

good day...the birthday ended up marvelous...i'm gonna sleep on it and check in tomorrow...good nite all, and thanks for the happy b-day thread!


----------



## voivod

such a good feeling when beth called me and said "happy birthday"...she made a point of it, felt good. spent sunday nights again together, not all night, but yesterday evening it was close man, i really think we're gonna make it, okay...then today i had an epiphany...bethie's been trying to go back to school to further her education...anyway, my brain opened wide up...i remember why it makes me so sad that she wants to go back to school...i discouraged her from goining back several years ago, in a selfish way...i erupted in tears as i realized this...she quit school and followed me to new mexico...we lived across the street from an extension campus of the university of new mexico...she wanted to go...i discouraged her...what an a$$-bite thing to do...so i gotta find a way to be supportive...no matter what.


----------



## voivod

i guess i'm just journaling here now. last night was pretty cool. we sat and talked about...nothing...and it felt good. beth was able to tell me of her desire to return to college, finish her degree, teach a fitness class, teach history (a passion of both of ours) and of her struggles at work.

i'm at kind of an impasse...i feel like ive done all the improving of myself that i can. i don't know what to do next. sobriety--check, physical fitness--check, jealousy and control defeated--check...i just don't know what to do next to help her see that i am the real deal...any suggestions would be welcomed...


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> .any suggestions would be welcomed...


She probably misses the swagger... you keep ducking that one - perhaps it's the last piece in the jigsaw.

Turn up the swagger.


----------



## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> She probably misses the swagger... you keep ducking that one - perhaps it's the last piece in the jigsaw.
> 
> Turn up the swagger.


haha...i swagger all day at work...maybe you're right...it works in car sales...maybe...well, i'll give it a try...


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> haha...i swagger all day at work...maybe you're right...it works in car sales...maybe...well, i'll give it a try...


Yeah, but don't try to sell her that ole '87 Chevy you've got in the lot


----------



## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> Yeah, but don't try to sell her that ole '87 Chevy you've got in the lot


ha! let's make it that 67 camaro and were in business!


----------



## voivod

okay, swagger...here goes...

i took my boy fishing today (day off from work)...we caught fish...manly men me and the boy are...beth dug the idea that we're "bonding" like that...

then it was his baseball practice today. bethie is the coach, she pitched to the boys and i took some ground balls...now remember, i had a ****ed up stroke...real serious...about a year and a half ago...so my left side is kinda, well, uncoordinated. i took a few to the chops today. she thought that was pretty manly.

then she asks me to come over for dinner and a movie. watched grand torino...new clint eastwood flick...ending gave beth and i both tears...she mentioned it and said she didn't think that was whimpy at all...

all the while, i was sitting there admiring her exquisitely shaped, tanned legs...god i've have eaten both of them whole, she's such a freakin babe...i lingered around the house for quite awhile today. man if this thing doesn't work out...i don't know...

so a few swagger points scored (and acknowledged) today...we'll see...


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> so a few swagger points scored (and acknowledged) today...we'll see...


Cool. Now up the ante and make her the focus of your swagger!

I get the impression you used to be a very red-blooded guy around her. This is the sort of guy she obviously digs.


----------



## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> Cool. Now up the ante and make her the focus of your swagger!
> 
> I get the impression you used to be a very red-blooded guy around her. This is the sort of guy she obviously digs.


yeah marktwain, my swagger was pretty bold. i wish i could bring that guy back, but i have a lot of guilt in me over the way i treated our marriage...the "swagger" i had lived guilt-free...

you know, i thought about starting a separate thread for this question, but maybe you could add some wisdom for me to this thought...

i have a pretty deep-seated belief that beth thinks i cheated on her...she knows the "swagger" me from before. i was pretty much an unabashed skirt-chaser before we met. it's a reputation thing. i made myself pretty available to attractive women. this was when i was married the first time.

anyway, when i went into the hospital, beth had posession of my cell phone. there were several texts from one girl that i worked with that were pretty forward. she didn't want me to have the phone while i was in the hospital. rules there backed her up. she said she worried that my work would be calling me too much (i was the point man of the finance department). it made sense, except when she gave me the phone (when doctors said it was ok/heck, when i finaly could verbally communicate!) my texts were deleted.

so then when i got out of the hospital, the "one beer after mowing the lawn" fight included beth making some accusation about me spending money wildly. something about "did you spend it on drugs? on something else? and YOUR GIRLFRIEND??? i never thought about that until my counselor told me "beth acts like a girl who has been cheated on."

holy crap! the pieces of the puzzle seemed to land in the right places. really makes me wonder...does she think i cheated on her????

so here's the question: how might i go about convincing her that i did nothing of the sort? i mean i have to leave no doubt and do it in such a way that it doesn't appear that i'm trying to cover up something. sorta like she discovered that it didn't on her own.

whattaya think?


----------



## voivod

coworker sent the "forward" texts...i bought her a cheap little birthday present when she was down in the dumps, but never an affair.

i think she believes me. i think.

if she ever thought i did, she's had months to stew over it, and maybe she's resentful for what happened in her imagination.


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## MarkTwain

voivod-

As a super-sleuth you suck if you only just remembered this! However, I'll cut you some slack as you may have had more pressing things on your mind - like trying to recover from a life-threatening illness 

Yes, you did right to tell her I'm sure, but it might not hurt to follow through... How about some flowers, delivered to her door. When she asks you why, you can tell her, it is to remind her you have never been unfaithful etc. This is assuming you haven't. If you have, you may as well tell her - and take the consequences.

As for the swagger - that's part of your "Dark Side" that gives Beth the goose bumps! To kill it, is to kill Beth's passion for you. She wants the whole package. I think you might want to resurrect Mr. swagger, but tempered with your new-found humility. To me this is the highest that man can aspire to: Total integration of "True Grit" with humility.

The problem comes in that women are attracted to the Grit part so readily, that they forget to check to see if the humility factor is present. If Mr. Swagger is running the show - it's a disaster.


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> voivod-
> 
> As a super-sleuth you suck if you only just remembered this! However, I'll cut you some slack as you may have had more pressing things on your mind - like trying to recover from a life-threatening illness
> 
> Yes, you did right to tell her I'm sure, but it might not hurt to follow through... How about some flowers, delivered to her door. When she asks you why, you can tell her, it is to remind her you have never been unfaithful etc. This is assuming you haven't. If you have, you may as well tell her - and take the consequences.
> 
> *nope i haven't. and i never would. flowers, i think we're past the point of tokens. my word is good with her, mt.*
> 
> As for the swagger - that's part of your "Dark Side" that gives Beth the goose bumps! To kill it, is to kill Beth's passion for you. She wants the whole package. I think you might want to resurrect Mr. swagger, but tempered with your new-found humility. To me this is the highest that man can aspire to: Total integration of "True Grit" with humility.
> 
> *i think about that in the gym, late at night, when i'm working out. i wish you could see the swagger, the grit. mt, i almost died, then stood up out of a wheelchair and walked out of the goddam hospital when they said i wouldn't. i'm a gritty s.o.b. i don't quite grasp your meaning of true grit, unless a reference to "the duke."*
> 
> The problem comes in that women are attracted to the Grit part so readily, that they forget to check to see if the humility factor is present. If Mr. Swagger is running the show - it's a disaster.


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> nope i haven't. and i never would. flowers, i think we're past the point of tokens. my word is good with her, mt.


Well, that's where you need some education! Unless she is the type that does not care for flowers, wives should be bought flowers regularly - it has a huge effect on some wives - trust me.



voivod said:


> i'm a gritty s.o.b. i don't quite grasp your meaning of true grit, unless a reference to "the duke."


Yep, him


----------



## voivod

mt-
rather than flowers, i do cards...and vermont teddy bears...and sometimes flowers...she works with a witch that says she's "allergic to flowers"...

you've covered john wayne and humphrey bogart...the both act...they play roles even though they have their own style of recognizable charisma...how would that translate to real people???

and let me say, because i haven't said it here for awhile...

i love beth and the kids...


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## voivod

i feel like i hit a speedbump today...

beth called me and told me under no uncertain terms that i am not to be "going through the mail and using the computer."

yes, i used her computer while i was at her house to check my email. i don't know what "going through the mail" meant.

anyway, i texted her telling her i was being terribly presumptive by using her computer without her permission and that i was sorry.

i respect her wishes and won't be doing that again.

anyway, at baseball practice tonight she was almost cold. out of character for her, as we usually get along great.

anyway, because i almost always way over-reacti'm sitting here feeling like "holy crap i blew it" and i feel sick.

these are the kinds of things that make my patience run thin.


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## MarkTwain

V-
I think the only response to this has to be drastically reduced contact from you. Go back to your previous mode of letting her call you. When she does call you, act business-like as if you are in a hurry to get her off the phone.

She resents your intrusion into her privacy, but she went over the top. She might have something to hide. Giving her the cold shoulder will flush it out.

When she eventually asks you why you are being distant, you should say you are fed up of her hauling you over the coals. Don't on any account ask her if she is hiding something, or she will think you are back to being jealous.


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## voivod

there's nothing to hide. that's the good news. the bad news is, yes, i think her reaction was over the top.

can't i stop this rollercoaster ride????


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## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> there's nothing to hide. that's the good news. the bad news is, yes, i think her reaction was over the top.
> 
> can't i stop this rollercoaster ride????


You forget how complex women can be.


----------



## dcrim

Voivod, the only way to stop the roller coaster is to get off of it. 

Like MT said, do not initiate contact. Try living your life for YOU, not for her. Let her come to you from now on. 

Trust me, I know it hurts (and you know that I do)...but at some point, you have to pull the thorn from your side.


----------



## voivod

dcrim said:


> Voivod, the only way to stop the roller coaster is to get off of it.
> 
> Like MT said, do not initiate contact. Try living your life for YOU, not for her. Let her come to you from now on.
> 
> Trust me, I know it hurts (and you know that I do)...but at some point, you have to pull the thorn from your side.


yeah dcrim, i have been letting her come to me and that's been the way our most recent encounters have been initiated, by her contacting me...

the roller coaster i'm referring to is the solid belief that i have that we're gonna be together again, then my doubts creeping in...

i know you've had it tough. me too, but beth continues to keep me around...hope man, that's what i see...


----------



## Rhea

My thoughts prayers and hopes are w/you Vovoid. Keep doin what you're doing...stay strong show her you're strong  RAWR! Sometimes it takes time, I'm glad you're not giving up.


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## voivod

Rhea said:


> My thoughts prayers and hopes are w/you Vovoid. Keep doin what you're doing...stay strong show her you're strong  RAWR! Sometimes it takes time, I'm glad you're not giving up.


thank you so much for your thoughts and prayers...and trust me, i ain't giving up! i don't know how strong i am, i just know i love my family and never want to give up on them. they didn't give up on me when i had my freaking stroke...they are number one!


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## MarkTwain

voivod-

I think you have been putting Beth on a pedestal. She has frailties like the rest of humanity. There was a reason she blew up when you went on her computer. The best was to flush it out is to pull back to almost zero initiation of contact from you.


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## humpty dumpty

let Beth do some of the running !!!
WAIT FOR HER TO CONTACT YOU .
you need to make it a little harder for her to see you ..i cant help agreeing with Mark over the pc thing ..if she had nothing to hide why the blow up ?


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## amigo21

voivod said:


> thank you so much for your thoughts and prayers...and trust me, i ain't giving up! i don't know how strong i am, i just know i love my family and never want to give up on them. they didn't give up on me when i had my freaking stroke...they are number one!


You wont give up on them because they DINT give up on you??? What is this all about? Looks like you love Beth and your kids for a reason. Standing in Beth's place, I think I would like to be loved for who I am, not for what I did to you.
It feels more like -- I took care of you today, so you love me. If I dont do it tomorrow, you wont love me. This feeling is what is making Beth insecure about this relationship. She feels you are with her for a reason.
This may not exactly be true Voivod, but the point is, all these years she did so much for you - may be because she wanted to feel your love, care and understanding. Today when she is actually getting it, she feels she is getting all this just because SHE wants it and not because YOU want to give it to her.

16 years of doing cant be "undone" in just one year man. It takes more time for her to develop that trust in you and in this relationship again. She has touched ground zero now. This was the max that could happen to her, once she gets back together with you, she NEVER wants this to repeat again. So she is just taking care to check if everything is OK this time.


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## voivod

amigo21 said:


> You wont give up on them because they DINT give up on you??? What is this all about? Looks like you love Beth and your kids for a reason. Standing in Beth's place, I think I would like to be loved for who I am, not for what I did to you.
> It feels more like -- I took care of you today, so you love me. If I dont do it tomorrow, you wont love me. This feeling is what is making Beth insecure about this relationship. She feels you are with her for a reason.
> This may not exactly be true Voivod, but the point is, all these years she did so much for you - may be because she wanted to feel your love, care and understanding. Today when she is actually getting it, she feels she is getting all this just because SHE wants it and not because YOU want to give it to her.
> 
> 16 years of doing cant be "undone" in just one year man. It takes more time for her to develop that trust in you and in this relationship again. She has touched ground zero now. This was the max that could happen to her, once she gets back together with you, she NEVER wants this to repeat again. So she is just taking care to check if everything is OK this time.


i was just saying that i'm not going to give up. it's nor JUST because they didn't give up on me...that was an easy way to simplify my answer.

i love her for who she is, now AND before...she is an unbelievable woman. don't think i havent noticed that!

i now realize that 16 years can't be undone in one year. but crap, wouldn't it be fair to say that i have made incredible strides? i want to at least hear THAT.

hard to explain to her that she'll never have to experience the "bad" again.


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## Rhea

Keeping showing her the new and improved you. Let her know the future doesn't contain the past. By let her know I mean just keep showing her. Words tend to push these people even further away. Not sure why, well I can see why in some points but in others I can't. You've made many a stride my man and keep going one foot in front of the other. Rest assured she's noticing she just seems really scared to take action. But it does take time to heal wounds.


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## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> voivod-
> 
> I think you have been putting Beth on a pedestal. *yes i have*She has frailties like the rest of humanity. There was a reason she blew up when you went on her computer. *yes, because my daughter's best friend just gave a virus to beth's brand new computer. i just found out about this.*The best was to flush it out is to pull back to almost zero initiation of contact from you.


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## Rhea

Hey there, saw your post about dinner in the "Walls" thread. Was wondering how that turned out for the two of you? More good times? 

Hope you're well.
Rhea


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## voivod

Rhea said:


> Hey there, saw your post about dinner in the "Walls" thread. Was wondering how that turned out for the two of you? More good times?
> 
> Hope you're well.
> Rhea


oh my gosh rhea..this life is so crazy. beth's brother died in a skydiving accident earlier today. the family is not taking it well, beth especially noted today how fleeting life is....

my prayers are with the family...kenny was sorta troubled from what i can gather...drugs, booze, crazy life...i hope he has peace with our heavenly father...


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## Rhea

We've had 2 deaths in our family recently as well...the ex's cousin was killed by a drunk driver and my Mom's Aunt passed last night. My Mom just shocks me, she handles death and emotions the strongest of any woman I have ever seen sometimes I wish she'd just cry...she shed one tear out of one eye (I didn't even know that was possible) when my daughter was born, no tears at her father's funeral it's crazy...she says if people would realise that people are headed to a place of unconditional love and happiness which could never be provided here on earth no matter how hard you try there'd be less tears at funerals...I can see where she's coming from, but no matter where someone's going or how it is there it still sucks to lose them...

Ok got a little of topic sorry about that. As I said in your other thread I'm thrilled to hear things are going well, keep us updated. My thoughts are w/you, Beth, and your family during this time. 

Hugs 
Rhea


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## voivod

Rhea said:


> I'm thrilled to hear things are going well, keep us updated. My thoughts are w/you, Beth, and your family during this time.


why on earth do i pick little tiny things out of our interactions and feel so crappy about them then? she's going back to school. good for her. she will get financial aid based upon our situation. we've never taken a freebie in our lives! why does that bother me so bad!?!?


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## voivod

hey, i got the wierdest text last night...maybe you could help me sort it out...

text from beth: hey, write a will before you forget...i know your response. "i'm not going to die." well, i don't want you to. i'm just saying...

i respoded by saying i have a will, it's saved in my computer, and she doesn't have to worry.

my thought is that any will that i would do would include beth and the kids. like she wants to maintain that sorta connection.

thoughts?


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## Sprite

Her brother just passed, which is something she didnt expect. She wants to make sure there will be no surprises or fights if something should happen to you  Maybe she wants to know what her "job" would be if something were to happen to you.....meaning...is she going to be the one handleing your assets/debts/whatever else, or is someone else? It is your will, it is up to only you who you include or don't include. If you feel in your heart it is best to let Beth handle everything, then make it so!


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## voivod

Sprite said:


> Her brother just passed, which is something she didnt expect. She wants to make sure there will be no surprises or fights if something should happen to you  Maybe she wants to know what her "job" would be if something were to happen to you.....meaning...is she going to be the one handleing your assets/debts/whatever else, or is someone else? It is your will, it is up to only you who you include or don't include. If you feel in your heart it is best to let Beth handle everything, then make it so!


kinda what i was thinking. question: haven't i been enough of a burden on her? how fair would it be to put her "in charge" of my situation after i die?

it seems to me she is asking me to put her in charge. i swear that's her. will she never let go of these "co-dependent" (hate that word) traits???

i will tell you this though: i would be very comfortable with her in charge of my affairs.


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## voivod

makeyourwifehot said:


> You need to be strong. Focus on yourself.
> By continuing to vasilate back and forth, you are screwing up your own self-worth.
> 
> If its over, then its over. If there is something to WORK on, then both parties need to work on it openly, honestly, and consistently.


using the evidence, as my counselor says, i'd say it's not over. fortunately for me, the industry that i work in demands a high self-worth. i'm very successful in it, so i'm guessing that my self-worth is ok.

we're working on it, every freaking day. i left a big ol' mess in my wake. we got a lot to work on. but we'll get there.

ps-who's the chick on your website? she looks pretty hot.


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## voivod

hey, i posted some stuff on another thread, but in fairness to everyone who has helped me thusfar, i want to bring it back here.

check the thread "breaking down the walls" in the members pnly forum.

i've mentioned beths bro-in-law died in a skydiving accident. anyway, the funeral is going to be in california early next week. beth had planned a oregon coast trip with the kids for later that week. so beth texts me asking in i wanted to go to kenny's funeral. i had told her before i thought that, out of respect for the family, i should go. but work was gonna get in the way. so she texts me and asks. the next step is gonna be her asking if i wanna go to the coast.

i wonder if i should accept her invitation. i don't wanna look like a pushover.

thoughts?


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## DeniseK

Go....go...go ....go. You love her ...right? What are you worried about? As far as the "will" thing goes, did she do this after her brother in law died? If so...maybe she is just thinking like women do....we always think. You have said that you love her and want this to work.....but are you holding back a little....scared of her rejection? If she asks....and you love her....you should go. This might be that moment....the one it seems you are looking for.
Just my opinion...if it was me....I would drop everything and go. 

Are you afraid that YOU are going to fail? You seem strong....like you love your wife and kids. You made mistakes.....now try to start forgiving yourself and let yourself GO with her.
I hope you weren't offended.....just my opinion like I said. Good luck.


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## voivod

not afraid i'm gonna fail. and i'm not offended. i may go. it depends a lot on my work right now.

i also don't want to seem to eager. make sense?


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## DeniseK

sure....but aren't you? Eager, I mean. You love this woman so much...it is apparent in your posts....weren't you 'eager' when you first met her? Maybe that is what she needs from you....to know how 'eager you are'. I don' t know....I'm not in her head right now.

Just stop over thinking things. Good luck.


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## voivod

DeniseK said:


> sure....but aren't you? Eager, I mean. You love this woman so much...it is apparent in your posts....weren't you 'eager' when you first met her? Maybe that is what she needs from you....to know how 'eager you are'. I don' t know....I'm not in her head right now.
> 
> Just stop over thinking things. Good luck.


eager, sure...and yes, i was eager when we met...you say "what she needs from me now..." i think maybe that is independence...denise, i'm not really sure...i wish i was...


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## voivod

most amazing night tonight...beth had my 10 year old baby call me. wanted me to bring bbq stuff to do an old family tradition...blow off the left-over fireworks, cook out and watch the neighbors' fireworks leftovers...

did all that...the we watched a movie...rather insignificant except at the last scene, she made a point to point out the song they played at the end...something about "ready to take a chance again..." by (i think) barry manilow...wtf????


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## voivod

now, she's calling ME to find out what i'm doing!!! tonight, it was poker. i love it. she's coming back...sllloowwwllly


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## Rhea

yes repeated baby steps  that's what I like to hear....so excited for you V!


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## voivod

Rhea said:


> yes repeated baby steps  that's what I like to hear....so excited for you V!


this morning she called to inform me that she has to take some entrance exam for college...it felt like she was looking for some support and comfort, so i tried to give it to her. i said "go rambo on the test, you're smart, you'll be fine." and stuff like that.

god i miss being her support group! i could tutor her for the test. she'd pass flying colors.

she is not making a mistake falling back this direction. i will never hurt her again. i just wish she'd realize that today.


----------



## Nobody

voivod said:


> she is not making a mistake falling back this direction. i will never hurt her again. i just wish she'd realize that today.


I think she is and has been realizing that, but like it's been said so many other times in this thread... she's just wanting to be absolutely *sure*! You know you can't blame her for wanting to know 10000% before she gets neck deep again. I, for one, am very proud of you for being so committed and working so hard! If only my DH had an ounce of your fight *sigh*


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## Corpuswife

You have earned this one! It sounds positive (very)...just take it slow on your part. TRY not to be too excitied around her. 

You are quite the role model....


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## Rhea

Nobody said:


> If only my DH had an ounce of your fight *sigh*


For real, if my ex had it in you like you do well then damn...my life would rock. 


Keep up the hard work Vovoid :smthumbup: you're starting to reap the benefits


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## voivod

i hop you're right rhea. i'm awake tonight cuz i'm nor cat-watching. kitty got past me and out the french doors out back when i got home from work last night. i haven't been able to coax him yet. it would just crush the kids (mom too) if he ran away. i guess i won't be sleeping til i get him in. wish me luck. any standard "trick" to getting him in? i've been shaking around his food back. that get's his attention, but so far...


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## overitnolove

... try a food trail leading into the room with something you dont usually give him like chicken breast or somthing like that.


----------



## voivod

overitnolove said:


> ... try a food trail leading into the room with something you dont usually give him like chicken breast or somthing like that.


wish i'd have thought of that first. imagine rocky chasing that chicken around in around in rocky one, the movie (i think) but imagine rocky's had a stroke. thats me, chasing him around in the dark. ronaldo kitty gave me a little workout in the backyard then let me catch him. he got a bowl of ice cream for that one. and i have a new stroke rehab excercise. and it was so fun.

i called beth and told her i got the kitty safe and sound. she asked to talk to kitty (silly, huh) so i put him on the phone. here's what i heard: "blah blah blah, blah...(big pause)..i love you."

so i said "huh?"

she said "i wasn't talking to ronaldo. i gotta go, talk to you in the morning, bye-bye."

a smile crossed my face...

"bye-bye."

okaY....


----------



## savemarriage

dear friend.
I left my husband years ago because of another addiction he had, and, I tested his love by seeing how much he will do to get me back, and how long he can keep his promise about his addiction. my husband got cured, and we are back together for the last 11 years. 
it sounds to me that she loves you, and trying to keep in touch with you in order to make sure you don't have another woman or to make sure there is a way back. take joy from every meeting you have with her and treat it like a new start. the best sex we ever had was when we were separated (and its getting better ever since)but the separation did it for us(I don't say get separated every few years ...). sadness is your biggest enemy. don't let doubts get in to your heart. u will get her back. all the signs are there.don't worry be happy.


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## voivod

beth and the kids arrived back intown tonight. sounds like the had a great time. when i got home from work, her and the kids were waiting in my (our) house for the to get home.

immediately she invited me over to watch a movie and look a picture from the trip.

mmmm...i feel so good, feeling her coming back is what i think i'm feeling.


----------



## voivod

i am still doing everything i can to appear to be "the man" in this relationship. but i have so much on my plate. i am on disability (100%) due to my stroke, and it affects how much a can work/earn. my thought is work as much as i can. it'll help to rehab my body. although if i earn too much, i could lose disability, of which a large portion goes to the kids. that cuts into beths income. i dont want to hurt her income, but i feel like my recovery depends upon my ability to work.

i sure don't want to seem selfish, but...

well, what's your opinion? work and risk disability? or don't work, secure the disability but hurt my potential income?


----------



## overitnolove

From my point of voew,. it is important that you are working, for her to respect you. But, I would call her and tell her your concerns about it eating into her income.

That's shows real understanding and respect for her welfare which I'm sure she needs to understand of you.

I'm sure if you talk with her about it she will understand your need to work, and be ok with it... talking to her about what decision to make will make her feel like you are doing the 'team' thing, which is always important.

And even if she doesnt want you to work too much b/.c of the income eating monster, maybe you can figure out the maximum money you can make b4 your circumstances change financially with the disability etc... you're a smart guy. Do the math and take it to her.

Keep smiling


----------



## Feelingalone

V, as OINL said talk to Beth about it. Your self worth is important to this situation. You can't let it go backwards. Beth is dropping the walls because you are becoming the guy you used to be and better. She is attracted to the confident guy you once were and to the committed guy that you have shown her for the last year or so. 

Don't through that away on the what if, etc. Ask her about it, or you will go backwards in your thinking.


----------



## voivod

i hate the feeling of the tickinbg clock. it just feels like the more time that goes by, the less my chances. if i make too little money, my job goes away (i'm in auto sales). if i make too much, my disability goes away. so does my kids' payments. beth needs that money to make it. without me. 

i don't want to put her in the position of making a decision based on my disability payments to my kids. if i don't work, i can't make it financially. if i do work, it takes money away from the kids and, i guess, her too. this cycle sucks. im stuck.


----------



## voivod

several days have gone by now with very little contact, except for a few nice texts. im missing beth sad badly right now. i've had some time to reflect on my mistakes. i only had a beer! just a beer, and she is punishing me like this? damn, this is hard.


----------



## Feelingalone

Don't dwell on tha past by you or by her. I know it is easier said than done. As you know my w is punishing me as well. It is hard, but you've got to push through it. 

One of my and my w's problems is always assuming things are clear between us. It came up in our counseling session today. She would say something but clarify her point or jump to a conclusion or set certain expectations up in her mind and never tell me. And I was doing that as well. That only works if either of us were mind readers, but alas we aren't. 

You just need to talk with her and let her know your thoughts on the situation. Don't assume anything. As our counselor said today, "speak your truth with kindness".


----------



## voivod

Feelingalone said:


> You just need to talk with her and let her know your thoughts on the situation. Don't assume anything. As our counselor said today, "speak your truth with kindness".


i'm getting ready to talk to her. i want to convey to her my feelings on our relationship and how much i'd like another chance. those who've followed my thread know i've done the right things. what i'm wondering is this:

how should i approach the conversation? what kinds of things should i bring up/avoid?

thanks


----------



## MarkTwain

voivod said:


> i hate the feeling of the tickinbg clock. it just feels like the more time that goes by, the less my chances. if i make too little money, my job goes away (i'm in auto sales). if i make too much, my disability goes away. so does my kids' payments. beth needs that money to make it. without me.
> 
> i don't want to put her in the position of making a decision based on my disability payments to my kids. if i don't work, i can't make it financially. if i do work, it takes money away from the kids and, i guess, her too. this cycle sucks. im stuck.


Dude, is your head full of cotton wool? 

If you are capable of doing a good job at work, why not let your *light shine* and get well paid. Then you can come of benefits, and it will be your choice how much money to give Beth. Your money. I have come across situations before where people keep themselves down in order to keep benefits. What a waste of potential.

I'm telling you this as a friend.

Don't forget, Beth knows it costs you nothing to give her "your" benefits. But if you give her money that you earn - that's a real gift.


----------



## Corpuswife

I agree with Marktwain....your self esteem will rise when you work. In my profession....those who work have an immediate decrease in depressive symptoms and increase in self worth. In fact, you stated that this is something you want.

Also, the one beer thing and being punished. I think that may have triggered some old feeling from Beth.


----------



## Nobody

voivod said:


> i'm getting ready to talk to her. i want to convey to her my feelings on our relationship and how much i'd like another chance. those who've followed my thread know i've done the right things. what i'm wondering is this:
> 
> how should i approach the conversation? what kinds of things should i bring up/avoid?
> 
> thanks



*As honestly & thoughtfully as you can. Speak from the heart BUT use your head. YOU have come SO far, I imagine that your judgement is much better than it once was, use it wisely.*

I agree with MT & Corpuswife about the job situation.

That "one beer" comment you made... had better have been about the one after mowing the lawn a million posts ago... and if so - you should be ashamed of yourself for the "punishing" part of that post and YOU know it! No physical ailments on this end, just 18 months of sobriety & I could clearly see myself changing my name to Beth if DH had "one beer"......


----------



## voivod

Nobody said:


> *
> That "one beer" comment you made... had better have been about the one after mowing the lawn a million posts ago... and if so - you should be ashamed of yourself for the "punishing" part of that post and YOU know it! No physical ailments on this end, just 18 months of sobriety & I could clearly see myself changing my name to Beth if DH had "one beer"......*


*

yeah, it was THAT one beer. a million posts ago. thats what i feel like. how much more?*


----------



## Nobody

voivod said:


> yeah, it was THAT one beer. *a million posts ago.* thats what i feel like. how much more?



V - I wish I could answer that or give you any other answers for that matter. Have you spoken to her yet? How have communications been lately? I still wish DH had 1/2 the determination that you have, that's another story though. 

I wouldn't know who you were if you sold me a car  but I want for you guys to "work" as much as I want US to work. Send Beth on over here, I can easily point out just how much you've grown and what she has right there in front of her! I still think she already knows it, she's just having one hell of a time letting down the last wall. Being I understand all too well, I'm not sure I really blame her.... you've come this far, just a _little bit _longer now


----------



## voivod

Nobody said:


> I can easily point out just how much you've grown and what she has right there in front of her!


she has a *man.* one that will suck it up and "git er done" for her. no just fix myself, but save our mortgage, beyond all hope. remember, i was 100% disabled. i went back to work *to save our mortgage, her "dream house".*

not just fix myself, but get my ass back to the 100k dollar per year income level! that's tough in cars when you aren't supposed to ever walk or talk again. and baby, to steal a line from the great paul newman in The Color of Money, i'm back!

not just fix myself, but crawl around the crawl space in the house fixing ducting.

not just fix myself, but mow our 3rd of an acre yard, pushing the lawn mower every step. yeah maybe an extra break or two, but *that's me! the crippled guy, out there in the 108 degree heat* mowing. and people fault me for doing it all for her? 

because why? because she *gave up her life for me to get mine back?*

hell, yes!



Nobody said:


> I still think she already knows it, she's just having one hell of a time letting down the last wall. Being I understand all too well, I'm not sure I really blame her.... you've come this far, just a _little bit _longer now


there, throw _that_ against the "wall."


----------



## Nobody

voivod said:


> she has a *man.* one that will suck it up and "git er done" for her. no just fix myself, but save our mortgage, beyond all hope. remember, i was 100% disabled. i went back to work *to save our mortgage, her "dream house".*
> 
> not just fix myself, but get my ass back to the 100k dollar per year income level! that's tough in cars when you aren't supposed to ever walk or talk again. *It's tough when you're the biggest BS artist north of Mexico wearing hip waders!*and baby, to steal a line from the great paul newman in The Color of Money, i'm back!
> *You don't need to tell ME this *
> not just fix myself, but crawl around the crawl space in the house fixing ducting.
> 
> not just fix myself, but mow our 3rd of an acre yard, pushing the lawn mower every step. yeah maybe an extra break or two, but *that's me! the crippled guy, out there in the 108 degree heat* mowing. and people fault me for doing it all for her?
> 
> because why? because she *gave up her life for me to get mine back?*
> 
> hell, yes!
> 
> 
> there, throw _that_ against the "wall."


*Little to the left hun, that was my wall 

I can't imagine that Beths hasn't already got some cracks in it..
I admire your conviction, it's actually quite inspiring - I can see the next brick fall - unfortunately, it hit me on the head*


----------



## voivod

Nobody said:


> *Little to the left hun, that was my wall
> 
> I can't imagine that Beths hasn't already got some cracks in it..
> I admire your conviction, it's actually quite inspiring - I can see the next brick fall - unfortunately, it hit me on the head*


ouch, i didn't mean to aim the bricks, and they certainly weren't aimed at you.

but biggest bs artist this side of mexico??? are you referring to me? cuz yeah i've been quite the bs artist in my day, but what i'm telling you is all true. promise.


----------



## Nobody

voivod said:


> ouch, i didn't mean to aim the bricks, and they certainly weren't aimed at you.
> *It's Ok, I ducked* :smthumbup:
> but biggest bs artist this side of mexico??? are you referring to me? cuz yeah i've been quite the bs artist in my day, but what i'm telling you is all true. promise.



LOL! NOOOoooooOOOOoO... I meant, it's hard enough to be a (car) salesperson when you've got the best game in town nevermind being told you'll never walk/talk again!  We KNOW you continue to defeat the odds!

Now why are you still here & not off making plans with Beth? 
Dinner, a movie, a drive, a walk, a picnic... something, spontaneous & fun!


----------



## voivod

Nobody said:


> Now why are you still here & not off making plans with Beth?
> Dinner, a movie, a drive, a walk, a picnic... something, spontaneous & fun!


already planned. a nice, quiet, airconditioned drive in the country, followed by a drive in movie.


----------



## Nobody

voivod said:


> already planned. a nice, quiet, airconditioned drive in the country, followed by a drive in movie.


I'm jealous!  I do hope the ride is not _too _quiet and that you will be able to come back and say that a truck load of that wall has been officially removed. I wish you both a wonderfully memorable evening


----------



## voivod

Nobody said:


> I'm jealous!  I do hope the ride is not _too _quiet and that you will be able to come back and say that a truck load of that wall has been officially removed. I wish you both a wonderfully memorable evening


mixed messages. 

"i don't know" about getting back together...

"will you coach with me"...her soccer team...

"yes"...she still cares...

the night ended sweetly. i went to the grocery store for her. it was just a nice fun thing that i haven't been able to do for awhile...

we had excellent wonderful simple conversation...it was just nice, calming, reassuring...

a truck load of bricks? i don't think this wall is coming down so easily, but i think it's coming down.

i heard her utter my name the smoothest i've heard her say it in months. it sounded so good (you kinda have to be us to understand the things that we have/had. saying a name meant everything to us...)


----------



## DeniseK

I seriously doubt that she is spending that much time alone with you because she doesn't love you. Sounds like she is really having a hard time letting you back in, though. Sometimes a wall becomes a security blanket. I should know.....I'm putting one up right as we speak.

Maybe you should just ask her.....what your chances are....or am I stupid for that suggestion?

I am rooting for you.....REALLY. I think everyone on here is.


----------



## voivod

DeniseK said:


> I seriously doubt that she is spending that much time alone with you because she doesn't love you. Sounds like she is really having a hard time letting you back in, though.


she loves me. i'm pretty sure. she would never ask me to help her coach her team. that is a new move for her. she IS having a hard time letting me back in...understand this..she's STUBBORN! and she is convinced she's right about her decision to separate. even though a little real heart to heart communication would have helped me understand what problems needed solving.


DeniseK said:


> Sometimes a wall becomes a security blanket. I should know.....I'm putting one up right as we speak.


she's not exactly secure. i don't think the wall is helping. you should google "fear of abandonment" and look beth right in the eye.


DeniseK said:


> Maybe you should just ask her.....what your chances are....or am I stupid for that suggestion?.


gotta be careful. i sell, very well. the key to selling is the same as cross examining a witness in court. only ask the question if you are confident that the answer will lead the witness/buyer. hate to sound manipulative, but i've worked my ass off to get to this point. no need to blow it up now.


DeniseK said:


> I am rooting for you.....REALLY. I think everyone on here is.


who _wouldn't_ root for me. i'm the classic underdog story. thank you.


----------



## DeniseK

You have put quite a bit of thought into everything....seems you kind of over think situations. I wish that my hubby...or stbx was as thoughtful. 

Maybe it is her. Maybe she wants the wall. Security comes in all shapes and sizes. Sometimes misery is easy to hold onto. Sometimes being stubborn is a shield. We all deal with disappointment in different ways. Or maybe she just doesn't want to trust you....even if she can't help it. I don't know. But abandonment is a horrible thing....and I can certainly understand someone who would rather walk away than be walked away from. 

That isn't me of course. I can't leave....I had to tell my father to leave when I was seven and short of losing my life ....just can't seem to walk away. Doesn't mean I don't know how to put up a wall. I had one up for years.....and the minute I let it down....I got devistated.

Wish things would work out for you faster. And I love to root for the underdog...but I also like to root for true love....sounds like you and your wife had it and still have it. So....I really really hope that neither of you give up and that what you have is greater than what you had before.

Remember the trials of Job. The last of his life was more blessed than the first. I hope the same for you and your family.

Bestest wishes....


----------



## voivod

DeniseK said:


> Maybe it is her. Maybe she wants the wall. Security comes in all shapes and sizes. Sometimes misery is easy to hold onto. Sometimes being stubborn is a shield. We all deal with disappointment in different ways. Or maybe she just doesn't want to trust you....even if she can't help it. I don't know. But abandonment is a horrible thing....and I can certainly understand someone who would rather walk away than be walked away from.
> 
> Wish things would work out for you faster. And I love to root for the underdog...but I also like to root for true love....sounds like you and your wife had it and still have it. So....I really really hope that neither of you give up and that what you have is greater than what you had before.
> 
> Remember the trials of Job. The last of his life was more blessed than the first. I hope the same for you and your family.
> 
> Bestest wishes....


job's story is inspirational. no wife suffering from pms. period time this week. my patience is being tried right now. because i'm figuring out how she controls her environment.

QUIT.

co-worker problems? quit the job

landlord problem? break the lease

husband problem? separate.

now, check this out:

i go over there tonight to play with the kids. joey is my little six year old boy with a capital "B". he pissed mom off tonight. to the point where she tells him "your going to live with your dad."

discipline problem? send the kid away.

starting to see a pattern? 

so i asked beth "when was the last time you sat down and talked with joey?"

because that's what we do *talk*! and he behaves with me. 100%.

she never talked to me about our problems. until thwe $#!t hit the fan and she...separated.

so we'll watch the spongebob video tonight and eat ice cream and chat, like a couple of ol' school chums. she needs to see this. maybe to "get it." and i mean get "the whole picture."

this is the woman i love.


----------



## voivod

ha. just off the phone with beth. sure did sound like a different person. maybe she recognizes what she's doing.


----------



## DeniseK

Six year old boys can be trying...Ha Ha. My youngest turned six on Saturday. His dad didn't even call. 

If your wife pushes out of situations that frighten her then maybe she just needs that one situation that she cant push her way out of.....YOU for instance.

The story of Job is inspirational. Did you ever hear the saying..." the patience of Job"? He went through Hell on earth and still stayed faithful to God. 

Did you know that the word "Almighty God" is used in the bible about fourty times. 36 of those times were in the book of Job. Wonder why? 

Stay the course. You are definately a stronger man for it. It sounds like she has a lifetime of practice at running away from hard situations. The only way to break that cycle is to give her something she can't run away from. You love her....she loves you....and the reward could be wonderful. It certainly sounds like she doesn't want you to give up.

And I know I can get on people's nerves.....but I care about people. I just really want you to come on here one day soon and say..."I'm home....." Yeah.


----------



## voivod

i'm sick to my stomach. 

knowing i can't quit.

i don't want divorce.

she won't/hasn't filed.

that is good.

counselor knows the story.

still saying i have hope.

hope sucks.

"do you want me to make the car payment?"

buy groceries?

take you guys out to eat?

you know, like the old days, when we were together.

i'm paying out the a$$ trying to get the house back in order.

it feels like "why?"

please, beth, see my efforts.

you know you like me.

one more brick in the wall to "love" me.

why not let it down?

i'll never hurt you.


----------



## voivod

i've been talking about a "wall" on another thread...

that thread has been helpful...

because clicking through this site...

i found doctor michael mascolo...

and i think he's the ticket...

i'm gonna learn how to do what needs to be done...

and do it...

and...good news...

the wall is coming down...

slow, but yes.

tonight i got "tricked" into going over to see beth.

listen honey, i know you were just at the store.

you could have easily picked up some diet doctor pepper...

it's been 100 plus degrees outside...

i know you didn't just "forget"...

but yeah, i'll bring some by...

and watch that silly movie you got from netflix...

we NEVER watched futuristic space movies...

but sure i will )

glad to hear joey is being a good boy again.

or is it you?

just got home...to your house honey...

the one you fought the builder over...

the one you made the tile guy redo the backsplash and fireplace 

tile because you thought i wouldn't be happy with the job...

don't you remember what i said?

i'd live in a cardboard box...

if YOU were happy...

i crawled through the crawlspace today...

reattaching ductwork damaged by the stupid irrigation flood last 

year...

before you moved out...

yeah, that was ME..."strokey" (i love that nickname) crawling around

down there. pretending you were upstairs...and i was doing it for 

YOU...

my appetite is coming back...i can eat tonight...

i'm feeling good about us.

thank you for telling me about your facebook...

and that there was nothing to be afraid of on there...

oh, yeah. the wall. when it finally comes down, you'll know...

that i'll never hurt you again.


----------



## D8zed

"don't you remember what i said?

i'd live in a cardboard box...

if YOU were happy..."

Is that YOU saying that? If so, talk about putting someone on a pedestal!!!!! This basically means that YOU cannot be happy unless THEY are happy. That's not healthy IMO.


----------



## voivod

D8zed said:


> "don't you remember what i said?
> 
> i'd live in a cardboard box...
> 
> if YOU were happy..."
> 
> Is that YOU saying that? If so, talk about putting someone on a pedestal!!!!! This basically means that YOU cannot be happy unless THEY are happy. That's not healthy IMO.


clearly i'm not "healthy" that way.

i'm okay with that.

theres time to fix that.

in the car biz we call that a "later problem."


----------



## DeniseK

Gosh I felt sorry for you earlier....you sounded so down. But your later posts were optimistic. I can totally relate to the "card board box".....I said that exact same thing. As long as someone loves me and I love him it wouldn't matter.

You sound like you are back....I mean in every way except physically. And I don't understand why you aren't physically back. But ...you are waiting for her to give you the green light, right? Have you asked her if she wants to have you back physically.....I mean really come out and ask her. Women don't always say what they mean...sometimes we think you can read our signals really loud and clear and sometimes....you just can't.

I just wonder if you might not be getting her signal clearly....or is that too hopefull on my part? I am really hoping for you.....but then...I think a lot of others are too.

Iknow that sick feeling too....I feel it all of the time...but for a different reason....It is sort of like the feeling when you are first falling for someone....it makes your appetite go away....but when you feel it for the opposite reason...for fear of losing what is most important to you....that is awful.

Chin up.....remember that you have come a long way. And that you deserve to be happy. No one is perfect and hopefully your wife will send you louder signals....ones that are easier to read.

I still think you should just come out and be honest about what you feel and want. Send her loud and clear signals.....and for women sometimes that means putting it right on the table.

Hope you haven't been offended by anything I have posted....take care and good luck.


----------



## Feelingalone

v,

I know you are anxious to be with Beth. But based on your last bunch of posts, I worry about you. Not that you will head to the old well, but that you seem angry. Angry at Beth for not seeing that you have changed.

You have come so far, for so long that I don't want you to get disappointed. As I said you are an inspiration. Keep doing what you have been doing and Beth will fall into the fold. 

I know it's hard, but she will come back all the way. She is almost there. Just relax. I think it is Beth's time to do some work. Allow her to do it. Show her the way. You are strong enough for the both of you now.

Just keep chanting your tag line.


----------



## voivod

Feelingalone said:


> v,
> 
> I know you are anxious to be with Beth. But based on your last bunch of posts, I worry about you. Not that you will head to the old well, but that you seem angry. Angry at Beth for not seeing that you have changed.
> 
> You have come so far, for so long that I don't want you to get disappointed. As I said you are an inspiration. Keep doing what you have been doing and Beth will fall into the fold.
> 
> I know it's hard, but she will come back all the way. She is almost there. Just relax. I think it is Beth's time to do some work. Allow her to do it. Show her the way. You are strong enough for the both of you now.
> 
> Just keep chanting your tag line.



i hate to say that i'm angry at her because i'm not. i am watching her grow, but somethings i would say she's the same old beth and it scares me. because she's supposed to be growing yet she, well, still acts stupid when something doesn't go her way. work, the car, the bills, the lease, the kids. i want to say out loud "grow the f#@k up and take some responsibility."

inspiration? i want to inspire, but more than that i want to lead by example. for my kids, for my wife. and it's frustrating when i don't think they see it.

and yes, it is time for her to do some work.


----------



## Feelingalone

Just remember patience V. Be her guide and listen -- don't jump in to resolve issues until asked. With the exception of issues with the kids of course.

Leading by example is the inspiration I was speaking about V. You've laid it out for others to follow.


----------



## voivod

Feelingalone said:


> Just remember patience V. Be her guide and listen -- don't jump in to resolve issues until asked. With the exception of issues with the kids of course.


well, beth has taken some tools i've given her and put them to use with little joey. things are gonna be fine there if she just stays the course.

tonight, i got another "honey" from beth. she really showed a side of caring tonight. i guess i was showing some stress on my face. she said "i can see it in you. is something wrong honey?"

of course, but nothing that a well-placed "honey" can't cure.

i'm going back in tomorrow. and soon i'm going to pose a couple of tough questions for her. hope she's ready.


----------



## MarkTwain

Well... you did not take my bait a few posts ago...


----------



## voivod

MarkTwain said:


> Well... you did not take my bait a few posts ago...


twain. i've had to do the danse macabre with this one. timings gonna be everything.

ask denisek about that.


----------



## DeniseK

Ok....I'm confused. What did I do?


----------



## voivod

the danse macabre of relationships. you're doing it. what do you think is the best approach?


----------



## DeniseK

Well....seriously. I doubt I am qualified to tell anyone the best approach to anything. I know that being in a corner and not knowing the way out is so very frightening. But it's sometimes better to fight your way out.

I know I don't like being in that corner....being out of control of things. All I know is do what you can.....and don't be afraid of failure.....because fear of failure is FAILURE. 

You have things going in the right direction.....all you have to do is keep following the steps toward normal. 

NO FEAR. my friend...no fear.


----------



## voivod

denisek,

i hooked up with dr. michael mascolo. ordering his start up package tonight. after talking with him at length on thursday, i think he's got us pretty well pegged.

doing the sunday night drive in the country tonight. beth seemed pretty enthusiastic about it when i talked to her earlier.

wish me luck!


----------



## DeniseK

vovoid,

I wish you all the luck in the entire world. Keep me posted.


----------



## voivod

well, we went out to dinner rather than the drive in. i think it went well. among the topics of conversation was music that was popular "when we were dating" (her words). granted the songs we were talking about are on guitar hero, but she framed em as song that were always on the radio when we first were seeing each other. WOW, what a magical "in love" time.

then after dinner we went for a drive and talked like a FAMILY again, kids and all. everyone participated! it was US! along the way, we saw a few state cops, and beth said:

"watch out, i've seen alot of cops." 

the i replied, "no worries, i'm only going 40."

then my joey says "dad you're going 55."

beth mocked me by saying "why should today be any different? i tell you to be careful. you speed up!"

everyone got a laugh outta that one.

she's making light of my previous behavior with her. hmmm. could it be i'm breaking through? i pray.

the finished up the night exchanging a couple of "honey's" and off i went.

how am i doing? no lies.


----------



## DeniseK

Sounds like a pretty honestly wonderful night. I mean it sounds like you guys are a complete family.....I don't understand why you arent back.

You are doing great.....did you slow down when she made that comment? Reach out for her hand? Wink? Flirt? Come on, voivod, what are you leaving out here?


Loving your wife is great......being a good man is wonderful....now are you trying to give her butterflies? Maybe that's the key. Or maybe you already are.

Telll me.


----------



## voivod

DeniseK said:


> You are doing great.....did you slow down when she made that comment? Reach out for her hand? Wink? Flirt? Come on, voivod, what are you leaving out here?


leaving out? i don't think anything. fear of failure you mentioned earlier. maybe.


----------



## DeniseK

Fear is not an option....this is your life. This is the love of your life right? It is pretty obvious she loves you the same way....I know you don't want to mess your progress up....and that is completely valid but don't mess up by being too careful .....make her feel like a desired woman....flirt. 

Of course you might be doing that....i don't know. But your interactions sound kinda like two people who love each other....slap some spice into it and throw her for a loop. She'll love it.

Or am I off base?


----------



## voivod

DeniseK said:


> Fear is not an option....this is your life. This is the love of your life right? It is pretty obvious she loves you the same way....I know you don't want to mess your progress up....and that is completely valid but don't mess up by being too careful .....make her feel like a desired woman....flirt.
> 
> Of course you might be doing that....i don't know. But your interactions sound kinda like two people who love each other....slap some spice into it and throw her for a loop. She'll love it.
> 
> Or am I off base?


apparently you are not off base. howver, it has been my experience with beth that she can feel overly pressured if questioned at the wrong time about her feelings. so my fear is that i ask her at he wrong time.

interestingly enough, that little exchange that i discribed earlier came up with her best friend.

beth said she saw that there was something wrong. she said "i can see it in your eyes, in your face. stress? well, i got tears in my eyes. in front of her. i hate that. anyway, i explained that it was because of my frustration with my stroke rehab. she said "honey, i can totally see you've been working hard at it."

so my kids told me that she had a conversation about that with her best friend, and she said how sad it made her feel.

feelings?


----------



## Feelingalone

V,

YES she has feelings for you. I know it is hard to see from your position, but everything that is happening and has happened over the last couple of months indicates that to me.

Keep going and the "right" time will come up. Just keep it up.


----------



## voivod

Feelingalone said:


> V,
> 
> YES she has feelings for you. I know it is hard to see from your position, but everything that is happening and has happened over the last couple of months indicates that to me.
> 
> Keep going and the "right" time will come up. Just keep it up.


i think i missed one of the "right" times recently. somewhere between that "songs that were on the radio when we were dating" conversation and the "there are lots of cops out tonight" conversation.

i could tell she was feeling close.


----------



## Feelingalone

I'm willing to bet more "right" times will keep coming up.


----------



## DeniseK

Sure they will....you haven't missed any opportunities that won't come back around. Just keep your eyes open and take them when they do.

Create some of those opportunities too. We women can definately send out confusing signals. Sometimes we act like we don't want to be pressured...but that just means that we don't want to be bs'd to death. There comes a time when you just gotta stomp out that fear and take the opportunity that you have.

fear is the enemy, right? It will stop you from doing things that you really need to do. Keep opening up to her about how you feel about your rehab but don't push it to the point that she feels too sorry for you. And how did she react to the vermont teddy bear...you did send it, right?


----------



## voivod

DeniseK said:


> fear is the enemy, right? It will stop you from doing things that you really need to do. Keep opening up to her about how you feel about your rehab but don't push it to the point that she feels too sorry for you. And how did she react to the vermont teddy bear...you did send it, right?


fear is funny. rationally the only thing i have to fear hasn't passed. it's been a year separated and she hasn't filed for divorce. she is waiting for her feelings. i'm pretty sure of that.

the vermont teddy bear is in transit. should be there monday. no woman in their right mind wouldn't love it. we'll see.


----------



## DeniseK

After a year....divorce doesn't sound like something she wants. She already knows that. When you know it's time....for a divorce...it doesn't take you long to do it. Whether you want it or not.

I wish I understood what is taking her so long. Still.....it's kinda like she is dating you again...right? Like she wants to be sure that it's really you....not some make believe story. Just a guess.

Keep us posted on the teddy bear....but I wouldn't stop there....I'd flood her with every thing you have....I mean pull out all the stops. But then....that's my approach to everything. Maybe it's my weakness....dk. 

Good luck....


----------



## voivod

DeniseK said:


> I wish I understood what is taking her so long. Still.....it's kinda like she is dating you again...right? Like she wants to be sure that it's really you....not some make believe story. Just a guess.


yeah but our dating the first time around was whirlwind romance and high level lust. i want that back 




DeniseK said:


> Keep us posted on the teddy bear....but I wouldn't stop there....I'd flood her with every thing you have....I mean pull out all the stops. But then....that's my approach to everything. Maybe it's my weakness....dk.
> 
> Good luck....


knowing me, here's how it'll happen. vermont teddy bear...wait for reaction.....assume she doesn't like it because she doesn't jump from the highest building....try to make up for it..get totally in the ditch depressed over her not dropping to her knees professing her love to me.... etc. ad nauseum

pathetic, aren't i?


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## DeniseK

Hum....pathethic....not at all.

And ok....I get the whole thing....romance...lust......sounds like you are standing on the ledge....just jump already.

You still have a few steps to take yet...voivod. Confidence.....romance....lust. these are things your wife probably wants too.

Gosh....I wish I could give you a shove.....a hard shove. Sounds like you need it.

Get her alone...whisper in her ear.....don't be afraid.....she IS your wife. From a woman's perspective.....I don't see how she can't like it.

And keep up with helping her with her issues.....probs with the kids....problems at work. Keep giving her that encouragement to not run from her problems with those things.....maybe it will transfer to your relationship....and she'll stop running from you.

I got my pom poms out.....go voivod...go.


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## voivod

DeniseK said:


> Hum....pathethic....not at all.
> 
> And ok....I get the whole thing....romance...lust......sounds like you are standing on the ledge....just jump already.
> 
> You still have a few steps to take yet...voivod. Confidence.....romance....lust. these are things your wife probably wants too.
> 
> Gosh....I wish I could give you a shove.....a hard shove. Sounds like you need it.
> 
> Get her alone...whisper in her ear.....don't be afraid.....she IS your wife. From a woman's perspective.....I don't see how she can't like it.
> 
> And keep up with helping her with her issues.....probs with the kids....problems at work. Keep giving her that encouragement to not run from her problems with those things.....maybe it will transfer to your relationship....and she'll stop running from you.
> 
> I got my pom poms out.....go voivod...go.


oh my gosh, i would have done all those sexy grab a$$ things when we were dating. hell, i'd have pinned her against the wall and given her a deep long kiss. i did back then. she melted.

the fear i have of doing something like that is that she would say she's not "mine" anymore to do thast stuff to. but i think the day is coming where i can really throw her down and...well, you know. it's just such unfamiliasr teritory for me though.


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## DeniseK

Okay...when you were dating....she wasn't technically yours...now...she is. Really she is. 

Okay....start out more slowly....if you wish. Just don't let the opportunity pass you by...she may think you don't really "want" her anymore and she might just be waiting for that moment.

btw...go to my thread...I really need advice.....bad.


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## voivod

DeniseK said:


> Okay...when you were dating....she wasn't technically yours...now...she is. Really she is.
> 
> Okay....start out more slowly....if you wish. Just don't let the opportunity pass you by...she may think you don't really "want" her anymore and she might just be waiting for that moment.


funny thing about me now versus then. i was a lust filled crazy man back then. now, well sure i want the sexual side, but more than anything, i want the closeness, the bond.

i know in my heart i am doing the right thing. i just wish it had more of an impact.


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## DeniseK

Sorry it's not going faster for you. You know what I think. But then.....this is what happens in most relationships....you start our with a lot of lust....and you don't really ever know your spouse until years later.....and if you don't let it turn to that deeper truer love...then it falls apart. Good that you have that deeper bond now. Still......acting like two crazy teenagers is not impossible....can be fun. Can really put the spark back in.

Women need that as much as men...why else would "Harliquin" make so much money...btw...think those books are crap...just making a point. Still.....romance...sex....love....all necessary. You sound like you have such a strong bond.....so I just though that the only ingredient that might be necessary is a bit of spice. Dk...maybe I'm wrong...jsut a woman's gut feeling here.


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## voivod

i had occasion to check the cell phone records last night. the bill was out of whack, according to beth. so i reviewed the call record on line. and there is NOTHING for me to be suspicious of! not a single call to a number that would raise suspicion.

that, combined with beth's social inactivity tells me she is NOT seeing anyone else or planning on it. in addition, no calls to attorney's offices, etc.

i guess any crazy suspicion i have is not well-placed! i don't get it. she doesn't want me yet she doesn't date, she doesn't retain an attorney, she doesn't file for divorce??? does she think i'm just going away???

she's in for some financial turbulance soon. i could help by coimbining the households. then she'd be forced to face the facts. i wonder what's going through her mind?


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## Feelingalone

There is only one way to know what is in her mind and that is to ask her.


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## voivod

Feelingalone said:


> There is only one way to know what is in her mind and that is to ask her.


again, my fear of the answer is holding me back. what if her verbal response is negative? what am i left with? confirmation that "apart" is where she wants to be? of course my answer would be "but what about all the good times we are having together now?"

i'd feel almost led on.


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## Feelingalone

Then your fear will keep you apart. What is the worst scenario? That you remain where you are with Beth closer now than over the last how many years?


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## voivod

worst case scenario??? that she lowers the boom on me. tells me "it's over" and i give up. i truly believe that if i continue trying/improving, we'll be back together someday. 

she still hints at reconciliation. telling my daughter that "maybe next trip" we'll vacation together, "just give me some time" with regard to our separation, still calling me "honey", asking me to coach with her, still asking me over for dinner...all that stuff that i consider good signs.


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## DeniseK

These things are reconcillation.....don't you see that. Fear is both your enemies...hers and yours. She is afraid...you are afraid. Bet if she was on here...she'd say something like ."....God I'm scared to trust him....if he screws up my heart will never recover. He isn't moving very fast.....should I slow down. "

She isn't seeing anyone cause she wants you.......and you want her. And voivod...to be completely honest...you sound like me....

ready to live in a pretty day dream rather than reality. 

If she would lower the boom....says it's over...than don't you think it would be best to know now.....? The longer you put off that serious talk then the more it will hurt. I know.

However.....she won't. She loves you....a woman can read these signs. Okay...unless you are stretching it...which I seriously doubt from all your posts......then I am reading...."what the heck is he waiting for" from her actions.

You gotta put that foot in the water sometime....at least stick your toes in and test it. It won't be as cold as you think....in fact....it might be pretty warm....hot even.

But who am I go give advice....I am on the other end.....worst case scenario....I AM LIVING IT.


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## voivod

i swear i am not "stretching it"..and no, i don't think it would be best to know now if she were to "lower the boom" because i think i'm overcoming any feelings of negativity daily..

last night we were maybe as close as we've been. she was not feeling too good. we talked about her being able to "rely" on me, and i think she indicated that she could.

i woke up today with an incredible sense of anxiety, because i offered myself up to do her a huge financial favor. i told her i'd sit down and think about it and if i could do it i'd do it and if i couldn't, i'd tell her i couldn't.

she does not want to "depend on anybody." is that normal?

what do you think?


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## Feelingalone

My w sometimes says the same thing V. I don't want to be financially dependent on anyone. Of course I would like to say then get a full time job. Because only she can cure that issue. That for sure isn't on me.

I'm not sure why my w feels that way. So I don't have a clue about why your w feels that way. Just wanted you to know that you aren't alone in that.


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## DeniseK

It's normal....but only in this twisted world we live in. It's frightening sometimes when the divorce rate is so high , to put your faith in someone else financially. That person has more power to hurt you....destroy you that way.

I can't relate....because money...(Mine or his) it didn't matter to me. My money was his...his money was mine.

But he did lower the boom on me.....waited to leave until my account was drained....and that hurts.

It's all fear.....fear is our enemy. It causes us to do many many stupid things...I know...I've done enough lately.

Take it with a grain of salt. And do this for her if you can.....it's part of coming together......don't let your fear make you do stupid things like I have. K.....
Anyway


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## Rhea

V,

Part of it is this world I agree...part of it is just being a woman...there are some whom very co-dependent, others are very independent...and some go both ways...

Some are dependent in some aspects and not others.

I'm guessing the "separation" is part of the reason she doesn't want to be financially dependent on you...but her asking you to help her out is big  

Have you asked her why she feels this way...

I too am a "in a marriage" our money is our money no his or hers...this is how it was w/the ex and I...


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## Feelingalone

Rhea, 

But what do you do with your wife when she feels that way. As a husband there is nothing you can do. And that is a no win for a guy.

DeniseK: 

But what you describe is not allowing you or in my case my w to trust me in that way ever. How can that be a good thing. I trust my w that way. Isn't that a marriage -- putting your trust in your significant other?


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## Rhea

Co-dependancy is one thing....trust is a whole different ball of wax....


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## DeniseK

I agree with rhea....but you missed my point. I'm not saying it's right that she doesn't trust him.....I'm saying it's the way the world has become.

Years ago women didn't work. they stayed at home and depended soley on the man for support. My mom did that and then when dad turned out to be a dead beat and drunk, then she had to get a job. That is what I mean....the world is twisted. You should be able to trust your spouse...but hurt and fear cause that trust to be pushed back....I quit work to go back to school....and two months after WE agreed on that .....he leaves me ......comes back...takes over all the bills.....keeps his check in a separate account. I have a job but cut back on my hours to do everything that he refused to do.....kids ...ball practices.....school stuff...house and yard work. All stuff on me and he didn't lift a finger....insisted I cut my hours....and then...boom....he leaves with all the money in HIS account....and pays none of the bills. So here I am...no money and lots of bills and he has enough money to '"start over".

That was my point. Yes...that is marriage...as it should be...I'm such a dreamer that I put that trust in him. And he screwed me. These stories get out...and it hurts other women......creates fear. Sorry for that...it's just a vicious cycle.


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## StrongEnough

V~
Early on in this thread, I kept stressing patience to you. Now is the time to act.

Yes Beth is scared! Absolutely scared to death. If she were to reconcile and things took a turn for the worse (not saying they would), she would be left to look for another place and move the children again. What I am saying is yes, you have fears, but understand that she does too. 

I am sure she feels vulnerable having to depend on you financially. This shows that she is dependent on you and she has a desire to be so strong. 

Both of you have fears, but you could talk about them and work through them together. Take the plunge. Have the hard conversations and tell her everything-wants, desires, fears, expectations. Lay it all out and be completely honest with her. Find someone to watch the kids for her and the two of you take a drive for a heart to heart. 

There is nothing to fear, but fear itself. I have 100% confidence that when you begin to talk about your fears, she will follow!


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## voivod

okay, so over the past couple of days enough things have happened that i think she's showing trust in me. she asked me late at night for advice on a lost kitty issue and implied that i should come over and look for him (that's loaded with double entendre' i know, but it's just the family cat.)

she asked me if i could help with money for the kids school shopping (her words were "i know this is becoming a familiar theme, but...") so she's becoming pretty comfortable asking me to help, which she always said i was not there for her to do.

as things go on, i'm gathering that she is not doing so well in the financial situation right now. she should have known. she came from a upper-middle class income (ours) to a single mom type income. i am helping with the rent on her house (my decision) and i'm strongly considering asking her to move back into our house (for financial reasons alone). i think we could make great progress if we lived together. our together time is always incredible.

my fear is beth's attitude. she plays it off like everything is someone elses fault. work, life, finances. like a victim. she brought this on herself, like everything else. 

the separation came because of a beer! then she said i was not a "team player" in our marriage. that because i did not deposit MY disability check in the bank to cover the check that SHE wrote for deposit on the apartment SHE originally took out when she decided we were separating.

so maybe i'm a little angry. not too ready to play by the rules. but i see it this way: i am going to go off ss disability in a couple of months. which means beth is no longer going to receive disability payments for the kids. then her options will be made clear to her. that is what i fear.


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## DeniseK

Your wife's attitude aside...and her victem complex....do you want her? Love her?

duh...yes...it's apparent by your threads.

Having said this. .....you are the one making progress here, right? Do you want to waste this time and let her go because you are angry with her.....not ready to play by the rules as a rebellion for her inability to "deal" right now? NO.

I don't see you being a quitter....maybe it will be a while before she comes to the place you are...where her issues become center stage adn she faces them...but won't you love her anyway? Yes..I think you will.

Sacrifice that anger and hurt.....give in to her a bit.....not because she deserves that understanding..but because you love her and you want to help her. Then....nudge her.....with encouragement to get help....little steps along the way.

You weren't perfect....but neither is she. News flash....NONE OF US ARE. Most people have issues....and when the going gets tough...those issues are harder to deal with. That is what makes good marriages great and great marriages fail. Those stupid imperfections become huge issues when we are hurt or going through H*ll. 

Think about what I said....maybe to some people it's bull crap...but....so what. I see things a bit differently....and that is one of my issues.....and I'm learning to laugh at people who think I am full of it.

Take care V.....good luck.


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## voivod

DeniseK said:


> Your wife's attitude aside...and her victem complex....do you want her? Love her?
> 
> duh...yes...it's apparent by your threads.
> 
> Having said this. .....you are the one making progress here, right? Do you want to waste this time and let her go because you are angry with her.....not ready to play by the rules as a rebellion for her inability to "deal" right now? NO.
> 
> I don't see you being a quitter....maybe it will be a while before she comes to the place you are...where her issues become center stage adn she faces them...but won't you love her anyway? Yes..I think you will.
> 
> Sacrifice that anger and hurt.....give in to her a bit.....not because she deserves that understanding..but because you love her and you want to help her. Then....nudge her.....with encouragement to get help....little steps along the way.
> 
> You weren't perfect....but neither is she. News flash....NONE OF US ARE. Most people have issues....and when the going gets tough...those issues are harder to deal with. That is what makes good marriages great and great marriages fail. Those stupid imperfections become huge issues when we are hurt or going through H*ll.
> 
> Think about what I said....maybe to some people it's bull crap...but....so what. I see things a bit differently....and that is one of my issues.....and I'm learning to laugh at people who think I am full of it.
> 
> Take care V.....good luck.


wow, your post was a wake up call denise, thank you. you're right. her imperfections are readily apparent...to ME...i don't know if she will ever recognize her imperfections...do i still love her? oh man yes. i can tell, because i don't really care of her imperfections. they're part of her whole self.

i don't know how, but we're gonna make it. whether it's the next relationship book i buy, website i see, or whatever.

i just gotta take a breath, live my life, and let some time pass...


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## voivod

denise k...

haha her "victim complex" came through today! (maybe mine too). beth called me on an old credit card debt, like i somehow "put her in debt...chris, this is fricken crap..." 

yeah, okay. so when i was laying in the hospital bed, and you were collecting my disability insurance money, could you not take care of things? cuz i was pretty much out of control then. and remember the summer place in the mountains? and the boat, and the "we're on top of the world" feeling that my income provided.

yep, this IS "fricken crap."

just a vent. sorry. going to watch football with her tonight. maybe i'm, not such a bad guy asfter all, huh?


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## voivod

pretty good night...beth was a little cranky...attributed to the kids being wild..i gotta do something to really move this thing forward..i don't know what to do...


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## voivod

the rollercoaster is on the little bumps...they're little, but there's lots of them. you been on the rollercoaster, you know what i mean.

today i interviewed with as local radio station. some good reasons to go back into that biz. anyway, i get a text from beth warning me that my insurance guy is gonna be calling me trying to sell me another life product. dammit...right now is not the time to be hitting me with a change! anyway, it was cool how bethie gave me the heads up.

then she texts me "i think it's safe...just term to whole. that's all."

kinda like she's trying to calm me. it worked.

soccer tonight. i hope she doesn't have have homework. i wanna hang out. which is what i told her yesterday. she called me immediately to ask what was up. i said "i wasn't even hungry. just wanted to spend a few minutes with you." ring ring...she calls.

she does like to keep me on edge. advantage beth, i guess.


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## voivod

wel, i tried to have the "we need to look at what we're doing here" talk. beth didn't really wanna talk about it, but said "don't you think we've come a long way?"

yes, we have, but it's time we take that last scary step.

"i'm not ready. you made some real mistakes chris."

yes, i know, but doesn't a guy deserve a second chance?

"i gave you so many chances," she said. started to get a little tense, so i stopped the conversation.

we'll see where this takes us.


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