# Is it cheating



## Roller

I'm not even sure where to start! 

My wife and I have been together since we were teenagers, I've never slept with anyone else. We have 3 great children (all teenagers) and have been married for over 15 years. All was going well until social media came along.

Long, long story cut short, my wife got addicted to facebook and in particular to the attention she gets from various (normally younger) men who messaged her. She doesn't work and has plenty of time on her hands to accept the rather crude efforts of these men to be flirtatious. Unfortunately for her, a lot of these chats were rather easy for me to see, so I knew exactly what was going on.

Rather than stop when she thought I knew what was going on, this gave her a reason to justify doing it even more - hours upon hours in a week with the same 2-3 guys - "if you're going to spy on me, I'll give you something to spy on"! The reality was that however long I "gave up spying" and trusted her, she kept on doing it!! I didn't have to see it to know it was going on - the hours and hours of using her phone or sitting at her PC behind closed doors gave it away!

So - was/is that cheating? She was never crude or particularly sexual. She was essentially receiving the admiration of these crudely flirtatious guys who were happy to request photos of her so that they could justify sending some of their own! As far as I know she never sent anything other than what she would publicly post on social media anyway.

Another of the is "sexting" cheating posts you may think at this point - erm.......no, it gets worse!

So at this point in our lives, the kids not really kids anymore, her now-found confidence in her attractiveness thanks both to all of the male admiration flowing in her direction via facebook and reassurances from a growing circle of divorced/separated friends (were at that age), she also started to go out more.......and more.......and drink (both at home and when out).....and drink......and drink! The nights out became days out with nights in hotels with friends (3-4 a year) or even weekends out.

Initially, believe it or not, I could handle the days/nights out because she shared those experiences with me by telling me all about them when she got back. However, as I became (in her eyes) more and more judgmental of her friends behaviour - it was always a friend, never her - what I got told became less and less. I therefore found myself having to ask about what when on rather than just sitting there and listening to her. I obviously asked questions that made her uncomfortable - because she thought I'd be judgmental of some responses - she was right! So, those answers became either lies of very watered-down to such an extent that there was no point asking.

A better man than me, would have stopped asking, accept I'd never know and leave it, but that isn't me. I long for the days when we shared everything, when I was different - in her eyes -to other men - I could be told things, and as a result our relationship was special because of that bond that had been there forvever - we've spent all our adult life together and I don't see that as a bad thing. Now, our relationship is like any other bad one where the woman (who's 40) wants to be 21 and a single-hot-chick whilst the guy, who is 40, willingly accepts that he is 40 and just wants a quite life with a loving wife! She's not 21 and I've not got a loving wife - it sucks!!

And it continues to get worse.......

So, during there nights out she's obviously attracted that admiration of those guys who are willing to flirt face-to-face, not just via facebook. Some are the same guys, others are extra guys. Any admiration, as long as it's from a good looking guy, is obviously accepted, although when she get's home she strangely tells me that nobody woudl ever be interested in her when there are so many 20-something girls out there!

A few of these guys have kissed her, she's confessed - but only a kiss and only once. Various excuses are used, mistletoe, birthdays, good-night, etc (all of which are plausible, but trust me not everyone by a long stretch). I've dealt with that without a problem, but not when it's kept from me.

One guy in particular though keeps coming up and this is why I write. They've snogged (several times, but always discretly at the end of the night, in a dark alley or similar), she's been back to his place (but I'm sure that they didn't sleep together) and although I've told her what I think they've done, she'll only confess to one snog. Not confessing to going back to his place, not confessing to anymore than one snog. 

To put it into context, this guy is single and loves it - he is a muscle-bound, healthy living, east-coast beach-apartment type of guy who is a woman's man if you see what I mean. Not a settle down with a ready-made family type-of-guy!!

So, on the basis she always comes home to me, hasn't slept with another guy since she's with me, tells me occasionally she loves me and is a great mother to our 3 boys, do I consider this cheating?

Couple of other notes, I'm sure that she is bi-polar or similar - nothing is EVER her fault, she is NEVER wrong and loves to embarrass me in front of people by telling them about my infidelity (of which there is nothing of note) and how **** and controlling a husband I've become.

I know that I'd be better off leaving, but can't. Don't ask me why, because I cannot answer, I just can't. I'm very low, but cannot do anything stupid because it would be wrong for the boys and those who care for me (a few friends, my parents and my boss who's really supportive).

So basically I want you to tell me it's not cheating, but........

THANKS FOR READING - IT MEANS A LOT.


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## PBear

Is it cheating? Not really, since you know and apparently accept what's going on. The term cuckold comes to mind...

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brendanoco

Roller said:


> I'm not even sure where to start!
> 
> My wife and I have been together since we were teenagers, I've never slept with anyone else. We have 3 great children (all teenagers) and have been married for over 15 years. All was going well until social media came along.
> 
> Long, long story cut short, my wife got addicted to facebook and in particular to the attention she gets from various (normally younger) men who messaged her. She doesn't work and has plenty of time on her hands to accept the rather crude efforts of these men to be flirtatious. Unfortunately for her, a lot of these chats were rather easy for me to see, so I knew exactly what was going on.
> 
> Rather than stop when she thought I knew what was going on, this gave her a reason to justify doing it even more - hours upon hours in a week with the same 2-3 guys - "if you're going to spy on me, I'll give you something to spy on"! The reality was that however long I "gave up spying" and trusted her, she kept on doing it!! I didn't have to see it to know it was going on - the hours and hours of using her phone or sitting at her PC behind closed doors gave it away!
> 
> So - was/is that cheating? She was never crude or particularly sexual. She was essentially receiving the admiration of these crudely flirtatious guys who were happy to request photos of her so that they could justify sending some of their own! As far as I know she never sent anything other than what she would publicly post on social media anyway.
> 
> Another of the is "sexting" cheating posts you may think at this point - erm.......no, it gets worse!
> 
> So at this point in our lives, the kids not really kids anymore, her now-found confidence in her attractiveness thanks both to all of the male admiration flowing in her direction via facebook and reassurances from a growing circle of divorced/separated friends (were at that age), she also started to go out more.......and more.......and drink (both at home and when out).....and drink......and drink! The nights out became days out with nights in hotels with friends (3-4 a year) or even weekends out.
> 
> Initially, believe it or not, I could handle the days/nights out because she shared those experiences with me by telling me all about them when she got back. However, as I became (in her eyes) more and more judgmental of her friends behaviour - it was always a friend, never her - what I got told became less and less. I therefore found myself having to ask about what when on rather than just sitting there and listening to her. I obviously asked questions that made her uncomfortable - because she thought I'd be judgmental of some responses - she was right! So, those answers became either lies of very watered-down to such an extent that there was no point asking.
> 
> A better man than me, would have stopped asking, accept I'd never know and leave it, but that isn't me. I long for the days when we shared everything, when I was different - in her eyes -to other men - I could be told things, and as a result our relationship was special because of that bond that had been there forvever - we've spent all our adult life together and I don't see that as a bad thing. Now, our relationship is like any other bad one where the woman (who's 40) wants to be 21 and a single-hot-chick whilst the guy, who is 40, willingly accepts that he is 40 and just wants a quite life with a loving wife! She's not 21 and I've not got a loving wife - it sucks!!
> 
> And it continues to get worse.......
> 
> So, during there nights out she's obviously attracted that admiration of those guys who are willing to flirt face-to-face, not just via facebook. Some are the same guys, others are extra guys. Any admiration, as long as it's from a good looking guy, is obviously accepted, although when she get's home she strangely tells me that nobody woudl ever be interested in her when there are so many 20-something girls out there!
> 
> A few of these guys have kissed her, she's confessed - but only a kiss and only once. Various excuses are used, mistletoe, birthdays, good-night, etc (all of which are plausible, but trust me not everyone by a long stretch). I've dealt with that without a problem, but not when it's kept from me.
> 
> One guy in particular though keeps coming up and this is why I write. They've snogged (several times, but always discretly at the end of the night, in a dark alley or similar), *she's been back to his place (but I'm sure that they didn't sleep together) *and although I've told her what I think they've done, she'll only confess to one snog. Not confessing to going back to his place, not confessing to anymore than one snog.
> 
> *To put it into context, this guy is single and loves it - he is a muscle-bound, healthy living, east-coast beach-apartment type of guy who is a woman's man if you see what I mean. Not a settle down with a ready-made family type-of-guy!!*
> 
> So, on the basis she always comes home to me, hasn't slept with another guy since she's with me, tells me occasionally she loves me and is a great mother to our 3 boys, do I consider this cheating?
> 
> Couple of other notes, I'm sure that she is bi-polar or similar - nothing is EVER her fault, she is NEVER wrong and loves to embarrass me in front of people by telling them about my infidelity (of which there is nothing of note) and how **** and controlling a husband I've become.
> 
> I know that I'd be better off leaving, but can't. Don't ask me why, because I cannot answer, I just can't. I'm very low, but cannot do anything stupid because it would be wrong for the boys and those who care for me (a few friends, my parents and my boss who's really supportive).
> 
> So basically I want you to tell me it's not cheating, but........
> 
> THANKS FOR READING - IT MEANS A LOT.


you cant be that naive can you??

yeah i am sure the alpha muscle dude had your wife back to his place and didnt fu*k her.


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## Cubby

First of all, when she's says she kissed a guy, the translation is that they fooked. That's an almost 100 percent accurate rule.

This has gone from Facebook flirtation all the way to her going out, acting single, "snogging" (I had to look that up) with guys, and, almost undoubtedly, having sex with these guys.

And here you are, on the sidelines, doing nothing. You should've put your foot down with a no-tolerance policy during her Facebook phase.


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## Cubby

At this point since your wife wants to be single, let her be single. Divorce her. Yes, you're concerned about your teenagers, but divorce is better than them observing you tolerating your wife's disrespectful behavior. Is that the kind of example you want to set?


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## badmemory

Roller said:


> A better man than me, would have stopped asking, accept I'd never know and leave it


To the contrary. That better man would not have accepted this behavior from his wife and insisted she end it. And by better, I mean less naive and more confident.

You think your wife hasn't had an affair. I'd say there's a good chance she has; but if she hasn't, it's only milliseconds away.

This behavior is exactly how many affairs start, whether EA or PA. And I know this from my own experience and being on TAM long enough.

You should have a sit down with her yesterday, and tell her you can't control what she does, but you can control what you accept from her. And you will no longer accept her crossing these marital boundaries. These secret FB episodes, the GNO's, and flirting with other men stop now. You expect full transparency from her going forward on all her devices. You will expect accountability for her time when she's away. She will send no contact messages to all these men and block them on FB. 

If she refuses, implement the 180 to detach from her, and go talk to an attorney to start divorce proceedings.

Consider yourself lucky if she already hasn't had a PA yet.

In short. Wake the hell up friend.


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## SamuraiJack

Oh if only there was a whip-crack icon...


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## IcePrincess28

I'm a 28 year old woman- and when I go out- I don't get much attention. So she's right about that. Why? bc I have a BF, who is with me (unless for an occasional girls' night- during which I dance my butt off- with my girl friends, and we only dance with each other, and i'm the designated driver) - and I snub any guys who try to advance me whenever he goes to the restroom. 

I think there's nothing more unattractive and desperate- than a married woman with teenage children, acting like a party girl. And by that, i mean she focuses on drinking in single environments. She craves the attention of men- but she has a man- you. There's nothing attractive about that. Honestly- as you know- when it comes to men- the ones without morals and values- will pork anything. Has nothing to do with how good your wife thinks she looks. 

Who is paying for her alcohol, hotel rooms, weekends out ? If she has a credit card. She's probably paying for a couple of those guys' night on the town. 

Oh- and to answer your question- yes!


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## Jellybeans

Yes, it's cheating. But you don't seem to care since you keep allowing it and she tells you about it and you've done nothing to tell her to stop...

so... maybe it's not cheating?


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## Cubby

IcePrincess28 said:


> I'm a 28 year old woman- and when I go out- I don't get much attention. So she's right about that. Why? bc I have a BF, who is with me (unless for an occasional girls' night- during which I dance my butt off- with my girl friends, and we only dance with each other, and i'm the designated driver) - and I snub any guys who try to advance me whenever he goes to the restroom.
> 
> *I think there's nothing more unattractive and desperate- than a woman with teenage children, acting like a party girl. And by that, i mean she focuses on drinking in single environments. She craves the attention of men- but she has a man- you. There's nothing attractive about that. Honestly- as you know- when it comes to men- the ones without morals and values- will pork anything. Has nothing to do with how good your wife thinks she looks. *
> 
> Who is paying for her alcohol, hotel rooms, weekends out ? If she has a credit card. She's probably paying for a couple of those guys' drinks.
> 
> Oh- and to answer your question- yes!


Her type is unattractive, except to one group--Pickup artists....who are attracted to her because she's an easy target.


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## Dad&Hubby

You can't be serious...I mean....no..You can't be serious.

Okay, I'll bite, stop for a second and try and look at your wife's behavior's as if it was a friend's wife and you were your friend (remove your emotions from the equation).....what would you tell your friend.

OF COURSE SHE'S CHEATING!!!! More than once with more than one guy.


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## changedbeliefs

uh........um.......hmmmm.......I am trying to.....let me think.......

How in the....?? You're not sure if it's cheating? She is frequently going on, getting drunk and hooking up with other guys. Your question really is, "does my wife have to be getting plowed in dark alleys in order for it to be cheating?"

I haven't used this phrase on TAM yet, but it's one of my favorites, paraphrased from _Stuck_, by Anneli Rufus. "For the first time in history, we are able to see the options we didn't choose." Your marriage was unfulfilling, and has been for a while, I would presume. Social media opened her eyes, and she shot to it like a moth to a flame. Yes, she's cheating. No, Facebook isn't to blame, her unfulfilling life and marriage are to blame, which partially means you. Up to both of you as to what you're going to do now.


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## Jellybeans

Roller said:


> Rather than stop when she thought I knew what was going on, this gave her a reason to justify doing it even more - hours upon hours in a week with the same 2-3 guys - *"if you're going to spy on me, I'll give you something to spy on"! *


1. You are married to a child...



Roller said:


> A few of these guys have kissed her, she's confessed - but only a kiss and only once. Various excuses are used, mistletoe, birthdays, good-night, etc (all of which are plausible, but trust me not everyone by a long stretch).
> 
> One guy in particular though keeps coming up and this is why I write. They've snogged (several times, but always discretly at the end of the night, in a dark alley or similar), she's been back to his place
> 
> Couple of other notes, I'm sure that she is bi-polar or similar - nothing is EVER her fault, she is NEVER wrong and loves to embarrass me in front of people by telling them about my infidelity


2. She has no respect for you and

3. You might as well have an open marriage (you kind of do already).


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## Dad&Hubby

Cubby said:


> At this point since your wife wants to be single, let her be single. Divorce her. Yes, you're concerned about your teenagers, but divorce is better than them observing you tolerating your wife's disrespectful behavior. Is that the kind of example you want to set?


First make her get a job. Once she's settled into a job...

THEN DIVORCE HER!

SAHM with teenagers....come on. She's bored and found something to fill her "time".

Don't get me wrong. SAHM's are a wonderful thing if the ability is there, especially with young ones, but teenagers.....not necessary at that point.


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## Cubby

Jellybeans said:


> Yes, it's cheating. But you don't seem to care since you keep allowing it and she tells you about it and you've done nothing to tell her to stop...
> 
> so... maybe it's not cheating?


Haha...that's how she sees it. She's got a sweet deal. She can be a cake-eater with no repercussions. Well, maybe her husband sulks and complains a little bit, but that's a small price to pay compared to all the fun she's having. And just think, it's almost the weekend....more fun!!!


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## SamuraiJack

Jellybeans said:


> 1. You are married to a child...
> 
> 
> 
> 2. She has no respect for you and
> 
> 3. You might as well have an open marriage (you kind of do already).


Sounds more like a "screen door marriage"....


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## IcePrincess28

Cubby said:


> Her type is unattractive, except to one group--Pickup artists....who are attracted to her because she's an easy target.


Pickup artists have a type? I don't think being "available" is categorized as a "type"- 

Oh wait- yes- there's a synonym for that.

OP- learn how to put your foot down- I wouldn't say walk away now. Surely there are plenty of other things that she's done, in addition to dealing with your past infidelity- that has made her a good spouse. Is there any reason why you don't go out with her?


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## Yeswecan

It appears you W has checked out of the marriage. Unless you can muster a valid reason to stay...don't.


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## Roller

badmemory said:


> This behavior is exactly how many affairs start, whether EA or PA. And I know this from my own experience and being on TAM long enough.


Thank you for the reply. Forgive my ignorance - what is EA or PA?


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## Roller

IcePrincess28 said:


> I'm a 28 year old woman- and when I go out- I don't get much attention. So she's right about that. Why? bc I have a BF, who is with me (unless for an occasional girls' night- during which I dance my butt off- with my girl friends, and we only dance with each other, and i'm the designated driver) - and I snub any guys who try to advance me whenever he goes to the restroom.
> 
> I think there's nothing more unattractive and desperate- than a married woman with teenage children, acting like a party girl. And by that, i mean she focuses on drinking in single environments. She craves the attention of men- but she has a man- you. There's nothing attractive about that. Honestly- as you know- when it comes to men- the ones without morals and values- will pork anything. Has nothing to do with how good your wife thinks she looks.
> 
> Who is paying for her alcohol, hotel rooms, weekends out ? If she has a credit card. She's probably paying for a couple of those guys' night on the town.
> 
> Oh- and to answer your question- yes!


I cannot thank you enough for your answer. Whilst I appreciate every response (however harsh for a guy on the brink), I really appreciate your perspective. Thank you, your guy is very lucky and I wish you every happiness - you deserve it.


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## badmemory

Roller said:


> A few of these guys have kissed her, she's confessed * = cheating*
> 
> They've snogged (several times, but always discretly at the end of the night, in a dark alley or similar) *= cheating*
> 
> 
> she's been back to his place *= cheating *


By the way, if you are taking divorce off the table; you will be absolutely powerless to change her behavior.


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## badmemory

Roller said:


> Thank you for the reply. Forgive my ignorance - what is EA or PA?


EA - emotional affair

PA - physical affair


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## Roller

Jellybeans said:


> Yes, it's cheating. But you don't seem to care since you keep allowing it and she tells you about it and you've done nothing to tell her to stop...
> 
> so... maybe it's not cheating?


Appreciate the response, but I DO care. I care desperately, I'm very, very low and desperate because of it. If I could grow a pair I'd leave, but I'm struggling so, so much to decide whether that is the right thing for everyone. I've given my life to this person, I love her so, so much and somewhere in my mind I believe that she will one day wake-up to herself and change.

I wish I could put ME first, but I cannot. Someone said cuckold - possibly that's correct - but not by choice.


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## Roller

changedbeliefs said:


> uh........um.......hmmmm.......I am trying to.....let me think.......
> 
> How in the....?? You're not sure if it's cheating? She is frequently going on, getting drunk and hooking up with other guys. Your question really is, "does my wife have to be getting plowed in dark alleys in order for it to be cheating?"
> 
> I haven't used this phrase on TAM yet, but it's one of my favorites, paraphrased from _Stuck_, by Anneli Rufus. "For the first time in history, we are able to see the options we didn't choose." Your marriage was unfulfilling, and has been for a while, I would presume. Social media opened her eyes, and she shot to it like a moth to a flame. Yes, she's cheating. No, Facebook isn't to blame, her unfulfilling life and marriage are to blame, which partially means you. Up to both of you as to what you're going to do now.


Thank you for the reply. Let me put it this way, active sex life (although I get nothing and give everything), big house, nice cars, holidays, kids, chose-to-work-or-not (for her - I have to work to facilitate it - I'm in real-estate). Unfulfilling? You wouldn't have thought so, but evidently, you are correct. I unfulfilled by not being a younger, fitter, bum of a man!


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## BobSimmons

Roller said:


> I cannot thank you enough for your answer. Whilst I appreciate every response (however harsh for a guy on the brink), I really appreciate your perspective. Thank you, your guy is very lucky and I wish you every happiness - you deserve it.


hmmm *quietly backs out the room*


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## Roller

Cubby said:


> Haha...that's how she sees it. She's got a sweet deal. She can be a cake-eater with no repercussions. Well, maybe her husband sulks and complains a little bit, but that's a small price to pay compared to all the fun she's having. And just think, it's almost the weekend....more fun!!!


You put it so well, in so little words. You are SO right. But I still find myself unable to justify walking away.


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## PBear

Roller said:


> Appreciate the response, but I DO care. I care desperately, I'm very, very low and desperate because of it. If I could grow a pair I'd leave, but I'm struggling so, so much to decide whether that is the right thing for everyone. I've given my life to this person, I love her so, so much and somewhere in my mind I believe that she will one day wake-up to herself and change.
> 
> I wish I could put ME first, but I cannot. Someone said cuckold - possibly that's correct - but not by choice.


It's not by choice? That's where you're wrong, my friend. You have an opportunity every day, every minute, to speak up and stand your ground. And you're choosing to allow her to continue doing what she's doing. 

And as the others have noted... You're setting a horrible example for your kids in the process. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badmemory

Roller said:


> I believe that she will one day wake-up to herself and change. *- That's an absolute fantasy.*
> 
> Someone said cuckold - possibly that's correct - but not by choice.
> 
> *Of course it's by choice. You don't have to accept this. I prefer the word door mat - that's exactly what you've become to her. And that my good man, causes her to lose all respect for you; and thus attraction.*


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## IcePrincess28

Roller said:


> I cannot thank you enough for your answer. Whilst I appreciate every response (however harsh for a guy on the brink), I really appreciate your perspective. Thank you, your guy is very lucky and I wish you every happiness - you deserve it.


I'm sorry for the harshness- I honestly did not know that you were on the brink of a meltdown- due to the tone your post seemed to convey. i'm just a very empathetic person! I picked up on an underlying tone in your post- of some insecurities perhaps? When you mentioned the young guy- who looked good, and was the type of man women would go after- thats why I wanted to point out that your wife is not the "hot thing" she thinks she is. 

Men without values- wil give attention to anything. Nothing you've mentioned of your wife, in your post- screams substance. Therefore- i'm obliged to think that- this guy sees nothing in her- besides a free lay, and she might even be paying for their partying nights out. 

Think of what they're thinking- of a married mother- out partying that much. What's this woman doing anyways? shouldn't she be out or at home with her husband? Doesn't she have kids she could be at home with? 

I think its great when people in their 40s, who are married and have teenage kids- know to give themselves a time out- and go out and enjoy themselves. But your wife parties like a teenager- in single environments- without you. 

How about you guys go out and do things together? She could very well have started this behavior because she wanted to go out, you did not, and a fork in the road was created- and you two are now living separate lives. Never too late to weld the two together.


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## Roller

IcePrincess28 said:


> Pickup artists have a type? I don't think being "available" is categorized as a "type"-
> 
> Oh wait- yes- there's a synonym for that.
> 
> OP- learn how to put your foot down- I wouldn't say walk away now. Surely there are plenty of other things that she's done, in addition to dealing with your past infidelity- that has made her a good spouse. Is there any reason why you don't go out with her?


I did go out with her, until she started wanting to go out with her fu*k-about friends. Then I went out with her anyway (as in I went out with her despite the fact she didn't want me to), so she made sure that everyone hated me - the sulky guy, the party-pooper, the "father figure", the fun-spoiler. 

Believe it or not, I had too much self-respect to continue going out with her.

I don't have enough self-respect to leave her though.

And to everyone saying "put you foot down" - look up bi-polar or narcissistic - it causes emotional and verbal abuse to fly in my direction. It's incredibly painful and soul-destroying. Because I'm the man, even in this day-in-age, getting people to believe that my lovely, fun, happy wife is abusive to me is impossible.

It's lonely, heart-breaking, soul-destroyingly painful and it happens VERY frequently.


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## Roller

badmemory said:


> EA - emotional affair
> 
> PA - physical affair


Thank you


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## justme85

Sorry to read that you're having these problems.

If my two cents (or ten pence as we brits say) is worth anything, I understand that an individual should have a right to a girls night, or browsing on facebook, but if a guy is making inappropriate comments to her she should be shutting that down with a "thanks, but I'm happily married". I go out without the other half and other guys are not even on my radar. 

One thing I learnt when I attended a therapy session with my partner is that there is also a betrayal in the actual time spent chasing these admiration's elsewhere. This time could be spent with you and your boys, on mending any broken fences in the marriage. She is sharing a part of her with these other guys, that should be special and reserved for you only. 

You absolutely should not tolerate this behavior and need to air your concerns. If she feels that she wants to continue, then fine, she can have all the time she likes when she's divorced! 

Good luck!


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## Tasorundo

So when she goes to his house, what do they do? Cuddle? Make pizza?

You know what they are doing, and the sooner you realize that you already know the truth, the sooner you will act accordingly.


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## Q tip

Your simple beta ways has allowed her to dormat your sorry a$$. She's living her second life without you.

She's on other guys big time while you subsidize her new lifestyle. Natures way of getting that last offspring out of her. 

Sorry the huge slap, but dude, wake the F up.

If you keep her or D, read MMSLP. It will explain what you've done.

She's still 100% responsible for her actions! but you could have stopped all this.


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## badmemory

Roller said:


> I don't have enough self-respect to leave her though.


Roller,

When you find that self respect, we'll help you with your action plan. There's nothing we can do for you until that happens. 

If you stick around here with this same mind set, you're going to get shelled by some posters, who with good intentions, hope they can shame you in to doing the right thing. I would too if I thought it would work.


----------



## Graywolf2

You know the truth but are afraid to admit it to yourself. You have one half of an open marriage and you seem to be resigned to it. You’re not happy about it but are not willing to change anything. So why are you posting? 

If the OM is getting the milk for free I would at least make him pay for the cow’s upkeep.


----------



## warlock07

I like how you lose touch with reality when you say "they did not have sex"

She doesn't have to change with a guy like you. Start enjoying your new lifestyle. Maybe even make the marriage open so that she won't have to risk her safety while having these flings.


----------



## Q tip

warlock07 said:


> I like how you lose touch with reality when you say "they did not have sex"
> 
> She doesn't have to change with a guy like you. Start enjoying your new lifestyle. Maybe even make the marriage open so that she won't have to risk her safety while having these flings.


Once he mans up, he'll get himself an STD test, divorce papers and kick her skank a$$ to the curb. Then and only then will she come crawling back. 

Then it's on his terms if he decides to take her back. Why? He won't as there are plenty of younger, nicer, prettier hotties out there. She's a proven cheat, the others aren't. She'll realize this only at that point. Not before.


----------



## vellocet

> Is it cheating


With regards to flirtation, I consider it cheating. Its the acknowledgement that the ones doing the flirting are into the other person, or at the very least attracted to them.
And on the lowest level its disrespectful, IMO.

Others might not see it that way and don't think flirting is cheating or disrespectful. It all depends on the person.

If you have a problem with what she is doing, then for you it could be considered emotional cheating.

And even if she isn't suggestive back to them, they are being crude and sexually explicit to her. She likes it. She doesn't unfriend them. She should if she respects and loves you. 
If women were coming on to me while I'm in a committed relationship, and I let it happen and kept a friendship with them, I wouldn't blame my sig. other for wanting to kick me to the curb. Not suggesting you do that, just saying, they'd have a right to be made.

And her defensiveness is all too telling. If she has nothing to hide, there shouldn't be a problem with you seeing the messages.
But her defensiveness indicates, to me anyway, that she knows its wrong, just doesn't want to admit it or block these jackasses. She likes the attention and IMO doesn't defriend them in case it might lead to something later.


----------



## Roller

badmemory said:


> Roller,
> 
> When you find that self respect, we'll help you with your action plan. There's nothing we can do for you until that happens.
> 
> If you stick around here with this same mind set, you're going to get shelled by some posters, who with good intentions, hope they can shame you in to doing the right thing. I would too if I thought it would work.


Your honesty and support is appreciate. Shell me all day long - that's why I use the name "roller", I've rolled with punches all my life. But save everyone the hasle, don't use shame - I'm already ashamed - it isn't making me leave.

Emotional and verbal abuse for past part of 10 years does it to you - you just shut down. Only thing that'll work is that she sees me catch her with him - that way it's undeniable.

I'm a loser and a pri*k but the self-respect simply aint there pal.

Sorry and thanks - really thanks.


----------



## IcePrincess28

OP- do you think she is having a PA?

I wouldn't go as far as to put yourself as of yet- for not leaving her. She is the mother of your children- you haven't said anything bad about her role as a mother- during their younger more demanding years- and she stood by you during your infidelity- so all that counts for something. 

You're not weak for staying with her. But she is very wrong for what she is doing. This is good that you stopped going out with her. The people she's hanging out with- are backwards in life. They are divorced, single- and/or hoping to provoke a divorce. 

Ultimately- its up to her and you- mutually- to want what you are proposing. But how about ways to make it fun? How about you try to find a couple- that you guys can enjoy evenings out with- who share the values of a traditional marriage? Don't mistake traditional- for judgmental. Nothing will chase a woman faster- than another wife and husband who judges her behavior for the "singles outings" she's been having. 

You can go out, or have game nights- and just incorporate alcohol into it, since she enjoys drinking. Some of my favorite games- are Taboo & scattergories, (and an optional bottle or two of Veuve Clicquot  ) Couples nights out- can involve- cooking classes (they usually serve wine), gun ranges (no alcohol allowed there), alot of movie theaters serve alcohol now as well, or even a short night at the casino. You can start with a nice seafood buffet- then blow $20 on some penny slots- just for sh!ts and giggles- then leave, and find a scenic outdoor patio bar- to end the evening at. 

I'm sure someone will bring this up at some point- but is it possible that she has a little bit of a drinking problem? Is she able to stop at 2 drinks- or does she always have to go all out?


----------



## Q tip

Roller said:


> Your honesty and support is appreciate. Shell me all day long - that's why I use the name "roller", I've rolled with punches all my life. But save everyone the hasle, don't use shame - I'm already ashamed - it isn't making me leave.
> 
> Emotional and verbal abuse for past part of 10 years does it to you - you just shut down. Only thing that'll work is that she sees me catch her with him - that way it's undeniable.
> 
> I'm a loser and a pri*k but the self-respect simply aint there pal.
> 
> Sorry and thanks - really thanks.


You can be that winner. Read up on Married Man Sex Life Primer by Athol Kay. It explains how we men have been brought up wrong. Get it on Amazon. Do it now.

Everything you've been told about women is wrong.

It's a real eye opener. Things will make sense for you. That loser attitude will evaporate. I promise!


----------



## Cubby

IcePrincess28 said:


> OP- do you think she is having a PA?
> 
> I wouldn't go as far as to put yourself as of yet- for not leaving her. She is the mother of your children- you haven't said anything bad about her role as a mother- during their younger more demanding years- and she stood by you during your infidelity- so all that counts for something.
> 
> You're not weak for staying with her. But she is very wrong for what she is doing. This is good that you stopped going out with her. The people she's hanging out with- are backwards in life. They are divorced, single- and/or hoping to provoke a divorce.
> 
> Ultimately- its up to her and you- mutually- to want what you are proposing. But how about ways to make it fun? How about you try to find a couple- that you guys can enjoy evenings out with- who share the values of a traditional marriage? Don't mistake traditional- for judgmental. Nothing will chase a woman faster- than another wife and husband who judges her behavior for the "singles outings" she's been having.
> 
> You can go out, or have game nights- and just incorporate alcohol into it, since she enjoys drinking. Some of my favorite games- are Taboo & scattergories, (and an optional bottle or two of Veuve Clicquot  ) Couples nights out- can involve- cooking classes (they usually serve wine), gun ranges (no alcohol allowed there), alot of movie theaters serve alcohol now as well, or even a short night at the casino. You can start with a nice seafood buffet- then blow $20 on some penny slots- just for sh!ts and giggles- then leave, and find a scenic outdoor patio bar- to end the evening at.
> 
> I'm sure someone will bring this up at some point- but is it possible that she has a little bit of a drinking problem? Is she able to stop at 2 drinks- or does she always have to go all out?


IcePrincess, some good suggestions, but I don't think what Roller's wife wants is to simply go out....what she wants is to go out and chase other guys.


----------



## OldWolf57

And don't say she is a great mom. If she truly is bipolar if you are not there they will be her target.

Look, start keeping a VAR,, "voice activated recorder" on you, or just use your fone. But doc. her abuse of you. 
Then have her kicked out with a RO. 
I mean really, don't you think your kids can see how depressed you have become.
They know it's from mom's being a slyt. So Roller, if anything happened to you, they will hate this woman.

Do me a big favor,,, set up a trust and put everything in it, but make the admin someone you trust. like your boss, and leave her out of it.

You don't seem to care about your kids, only her and you.


----------



## NoChoice

Absolutely!

If you are a loser and a p***k it is because you choose to be. In nature the females are always attracted to the alpha males, it's natural for the purposes of higher breeding and your WW seems to be well tuned in to her animal instincts. However, you don't seem to be a beta male but some other type further into the alphabet.

I don't say that to belittle you but I can't see for the life of me how you are not enraged by all of this to the point of standing up for yourself and your family. If a burglar broke into your home and started harming your family would you just stand there?

It boils down to how badly you want your W/Marriage. Words are cheap and easy and your wife knows it. I am in no way advocating any kind of violence but you don't have to be violent to calmly and forcefully put your foot down and stop this childish behavior your wife is exhibiting. If you do not stand for your family WHO WILL????


----------



## Jellybeans

Roller said:


> Only thing that'll work is that she sees me catch her with him - that way it's undeniable.
> 
> I'm a loser and a pri*k but the self-respect simply aint there pal.


Why don't you start going out and coming home and telling her about all the beautiful women you are kissing? Play her game a little bit.


----------



## ArmyofJuan

Roller said:


> You put it so well, in so little words. You are SO right. But I still find myself unable to justify walking away.


At this rate you won't have to, she'll do the leaving for you.

Sounds like you are co-dependent and your ego is in the toilet. Your biggest issue right now is that, not what she is doing. You can't control her but you can control yourself.

You need to work on your confidence and start to pull away from her emotionally. You are much too tied to her for your own health. Start hanging with friends and thinking about what kind of life you could have without her. You need to mentally get over your fear of losing her before you have the strength to stand up for yourself.

The thing is, if she was afraid of you leaving her she most likely wouldn't be doing this. She sees you are being submissive which gives her a free pass to walk all over you. The only way to earn her respect back is to show her you don't need her and won't tolerate her nonsense.

Its 180 time.


----------



## Lon

Roller said:


> Your honesty and support is appreciate. Shell me all day long - that's why I use the name "roller", I've rolled with punches all my life. But save everyone the hasle, don't use shame - I'm already ashamed - it isn't making me leave.
> 
> Emotional and verbal abuse for past part of 10 years does it to you - you just shut down. Only thing that'll work is that she sees me catch her with him - that way it's undeniable.
> 
> I'm a loser and a pri*k but the self-respect simply aint there pal.
> 
> Sorry and thanks - really thanks.



There is no onus on you to accept any kind of abusive behavior whatsoever. Go find a counsellor to help you start back up again.

As to whatever actions she does or does not do, totally out of your control so don't hinge any of your behaviors or actions on her. Stop reacting, just act.

You do not need to catch her in the physical act in order to start enforcing any boundaries (and even if you did you would just defer to some other further boundary away from the marital vows, or instrinsic relationship boundaries).

Life will be so much better for you and your children, once you are clear of her horrible actions.


----------



## richie33

Do you really need a bunch of strangers on the Internet to tell you that your wife is cheating? You cannot be this clueless.


----------



## OldWolf57

R, plz, get yourself into counciling, not marriage but individual.
and cut her money down to nothing. Let her friends pay for a while.
Just tell her you guys may have to downsize and sell her car.
Slowly but surely, whittle spending down.

And oh, cuckold but not by choice,,, wrong, you know and not doing anything. So yes by choice.


----------



## OldWolf57

You got too damn much going for you to be stuck on some stretched marked, washed upped old has been.

Hell, you should be looking for that trophy wife since the market is rebounding.


----------



## Forest

Who's financing this shindig, anyway? You are, Roller.

Pull the plug on her. Quietly move your income into you own accounts. Shut off the internet. Control the purse strings. If she wants cash, she can go find a job.

Take some meaningful action. Explain to the kids that she has dropped a bomb on the marriage. 

Heck, put the house up for sale if you can. Move somewhere smaller, work less, go to the gym more, and dump her if she doesn't come in line.


----------



## GusPolinski

"Only a kiss"...

LOL... Yeah, right. EHHH!!! WRONG!!!

Anyway, if you have to ask "Is it cheating...?", then yes... it very likely is.

And all of the "stop trying to control me", "you don't own me" bullsh*t is exactly that... BULLSH*T. It's nothing more than skin-deep faux feminism designed to throw you off-kilter and shame you into feeling like an abusive, controlling neanderthal. Don't fall for it!


----------



## Dad&Hubby

She wants to flaunt her party-girl single lifestyle in front of you. So be it, but cut her off from finances. 

I'm usually not one to go that route, but if you're too weak to leave (and I know how "complicated" it is, I divorced a SAHM when my kids were little pups, that's much harder than teenagers...sorry) then at least FIGHT BACK.

If you can build your self esteem back, you need to realize how much POWER you have in the relationship. She want's to be a SAHM and use all her time to cavort around. Take away EVERYTHING. Have 1 vehicle (which you need for work). No credit cards (you're just going to be "smarter" with money). Etc. etc. You see where this is going right. Put all bank accounts in your name only. You'll have to take on paying all the bills, but that's a small price to pay.

PS: This is ONLY if everything you're saying and her blatant disregard is true. Otherwise, this would be financial abuse and not right.


----------



## OldWolf57

I have too give credit. At least you are not using the kids as a reason not to kick her out.

Since you haven't mentioned them MUCH,, How are your kids handling all this tension??
Or are they as self centered as her?


----------



## Dyokemm

"Your honesty and support is appreciate. Shell me all day long - that's why I use the name "roller", I've rolled with punches all my life. But save everyone the hasle, don't use shame - I'm already ashamed - it isn't making me leave.

Emotional and verbal abuse for past part of 10 years does it to you - you just shut down. Only thing that'll work is that she sees me catch her with him - that way it's undeniable.

I'm a loser and a pri*k but the self-respect simply aint there pal.

Sorry and thanks - really thanks."

Roller,

I'm sorry to hear what you are going through....but in all honesty, if your every response is going to be "I can't" to other posters suggestions about standing up for yourself or taking steps to move on, what exactly is it that you are looking for from this site?

People can advise you til the end of time, but if you will not do anything with that advice then nothing will change for you.

You are the only person who can actually make a difference in your own life.


----------



## 2asdf2

You'll know when you have hurt enough.

When that happens, you'll act. Too late, but you'll act.


----------



## CASE_Sensitive

Deleted...never mind


----------



## PBear

BTW, there's another poster with a similar thread. Something about being rejected so his wife can watch game of thrones... Read up on it. And look up user Uptown. He has too much experience with spouses with bpd. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

Roller said:


> Your honesty and support is appreciate. Shell me all day long - that's why I use the name "roller", I've rolled with punches all my life. But save everyone the hasle, don't use shame - I'm already ashamed - it isn't making me leave.
> 
> Emotional and verbal abuse for past part of 10 years does it to you - you just shut down. Only thing that'll work is that she sees me catch her with him - that way it's undeniable.
> 
> I'm a loser and a pri*k but the self-respect simply aint there pal.
> 
> Sorry and thanks - really thanks.



Reading this is so sad and depressing. You look so worn and beat down. Why?

Get angry man !!! What happened to you ?


----------



## Iver

Roller,

What do your children think of all this? Are they aware of what's going on?


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

warlock07 said:


> Reading this is so sad and depressing. You look so worn and beat down. Why?
> 
> Get angry man !!! What happened to you ?


You bet.

Watch the first 1:40 of this video:
Network - Mad as Hell Scene - YouTube

First, you've got to get mad! You DO have the self-confidence to stand up for yourself.

Actually, its the ONLY chance you have to save your marriage.

1) Get a VAR and velcro it under the driver seat of her car.
2) If you have the money, hire a PI.
3) Consult the top 5 divorce liars.. erm lawyers and decide who your favorite is.
4) Drop divorce papers in her lap- that will wake her up real quick.

Sadly, you are so beat down, she has probably lost all respect for you (hence why she does so much of this right in your face) and shell just move on. Be prepared to fight war...


----------



## Jambri

Roller said:


> Your honesty and support is appreciate. Shell me all day long - that's why I use the name "roller", I've rolled with punches all my life. But save everyone the hasle, don't use shame - I'm already ashamed - it isn't making me leave.
> 
> Emotional and verbal abuse for past part of 10 years does it to you - you just shut down. Only thing that'll work is that she sees me catch her with him - that way it's undeniable.
> 
> I'm a loser and a pri*k but the self-respect simply aint there pal.
> 
> Sorry and thanks - really thanks.


So why are you even here? Is there a point?


----------



## murphy5

if she is not hiding it, you know about it, and can see the chats, then it is not cheating at all. It might be her way of sexually teasing you for better sex. But for sure, women like seeing they are attractive to younger men.

I would let her have her vicarious fun. I would have a serious talk about boundaries. Like she can chat all she wants, but never tell her name, phone number, address, actual age. Maybe you help her set up a fake persona to use in all cases.

After that, you might discuss what else she can/can not do. Like is it ok if she masturbates when she chats with these guys? Is it ok if she chats with guys who are masturbating at the time? What if they both had their cameras on? Is talk of perverse things, like bondage, gang bangs, certain role plays allowed?

And by all means, when she gets all horny talking with these guys, demand she run to wherever you are for a hot night of sex!


----------



## Lostinthought61

Roller if you want this to stop and own your life back as well as your marriage then its time to put your big pants on stop all activities without you....on otherwise you have two other choices Divorce or spend the rest of your life as doormat...oh you might get pissy but she she owns....i really hate it when i see a brother become a cuckold, no man should ever be treated that way


----------



## MattMatt

Roller said:


> I'm not even sure where to start!
> 
> My wife and I have been together since we were teenagers, I've never slept with anyone else. We have 3 great children (all teenagers) and have been married for over 15 years. All was going well until social media came along.
> 
> Long, long story cut short, my wife got addicted to facebook and in particular to the attention she gets from various (normally younger) men who messaged her. She doesn't work and has plenty of time on her hands to accept the rather crude efforts of these men to be flirtatious. Unfortunately for her, a lot of these chats were rather easy for me to see, so I knew exactly what was going on.
> 
> Rather than stop when she thought I knew what was going on, this gave her a reason to justify doing it even more - hours upon hours in a week with the same 2-3 guys - "if you're going to spy on me, I'll give you something to spy on"! The reality was that however long I "gave up spying" and trusted her, she kept on doing it!! I didn't have to see it to know it was going on - the hours and hours of using her phone or sitting at her PC behind closed doors gave it away!
> 
> So - was/is that cheating? She was never crude or particularly sexual. She was essentially receiving the admiration of these crudely flirtatious guys who were happy to request photos of her so that they could justify sending some of their own! As far as I know she never sent anything other than what she would publicly post on social media anyway.
> 
> Another of the is "sexting" cheating posts you may think at this point - erm.......no, it gets worse!
> 
> So at this point in our lives, the kids not really kids anymore, her now-found confidence in her attractiveness thanks both to all of the male admiration flowing in her direction via facebook and reassurances from a growing circle of divorced/separated friends (were at that age), she also started to go out more.......and more.......and drink (both at home and when out).....and drink......and drink! The nights out became days out with nights in hotels with friends (3-4 a year) or even weekends out.
> 
> Initially, believe it or not, I could handle the days/nights out because she shared those experiences with me by telling me all about them when she got back. However, as I became (in her eyes) more and more judgmental of her friends behaviour - it was always a friend, never her - what I got told became less and less. I therefore found myself having to ask about what when on rather than just sitting there and listening to her. I obviously asked questions that made her uncomfortable - because she thought I'd be judgmental of some responses - she was right! So, those answers became either lies of very watered-down to such an extent that there was no point asking.
> 
> A better man than me, would have stopped asking, accept I'd never know and leave it, but that isn't me. I long for the days when we shared everything, when I was different - in her eyes -to other men - I could be told things, and as a result our relationship was special because of that bond that had been there forvever - we've spent all our adult life together and I don't see that as a bad thing. Now, our relationship is like any other bad one where the woman (who's 40) wants to be 21 and a single-hot-chick whilst the guy, who is 40, willingly accepts that he is 40 and just wants a quite life with a loving wife! She's not 21 and I've not got a loving wife - it sucks!!
> 
> And it continues to get worse.......
> 
> So, during there nights out she's obviously attracted that admiration of those guys who are willing to flirt face-to-face, not just via facebook. Some are the same guys, others are extra guys. Any admiration, as long as it's from a good looking guy, is obviously accepted, although when she get's home she strangely tells me that nobody woudl ever be interested in her when there are so many 20-something girls out there!
> 
> A few of these guys have kissed her, she's confessed - but only a kiss and only once. Various excuses are used, mistletoe, birthdays, good-night, etc (all of which are plausible, but trust me not everyone by a long stretch). I've dealt with that without a problem, but not when it's kept from me.
> 
> One guy in particular though keeps coming up and this is why I write. They've snogged (several times, but always discretly at the end of the night, in a dark alley or similar), she's been back to his place (but I'm sure that they didn't sleep together) and although I've told her what I think they've done, she'll only confess to one snog. Not confessing to going back to his place, not confessing to anymore than one snog.
> 
> To put it into context, this guy is single and loves it - he is a muscle-bound, healthy living, east-coast beach-apartment type of guy who is a woman's man if you see what I mean. Not a settle down with a ready-made family type-of-guy!!
> 
> So, on the basis she always comes home to me, hasn't slept with another guy since she's with me, tells me occasionally she loves me and is a great mother to our 3 boys, do I consider this cheating?
> 
> Couple of other notes, I'm sure that she is bi-polar or similar - nothing is EVER her fault, she is NEVER wrong and loves to embarrass me in front of people by telling them about my infidelity (of which there is nothing of note) and how **** and controlling a husband I've become.
> 
> I know that I'd be better off leaving, but can't. Don't ask me why, because I cannot answer, I just can't. I'm very low, but cannot do anything stupid because it would be wrong for the boys and those who care for me (a few friends, my parents and my boss who's really supportive).
> 
> So basically I want you to tell me it's not cheating, but........
> 
> THANKS FOR READING - IT MEANS A LOT.


Yes. She is cheating. Snogging is cheating.


----------



## thummper

Be prepared, Roller. She's been pushing the limits and now knows beyond a shadow of doubt that you *WON'T DO ANYTHING!* Her activities will become far more blunt and obvious. How soon until she starts bringing her new "friends" home to snuggle RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU on the couch? How soon until the adjourn to the bedroom with you outside the door listening to the sounds from the other side? She's laughing at you. She's made you the ogre to all her friends. And you just stand there and let it happen. :banghead: For God's sake, do something!!! I've spent months monitoring this site listening to, mostly men, bewail their fates. Not one of them has been as weak as you. You love her? No, you love the woman she used to be. She's not that person anymore. She's morphed into someone you barely recognize. She throws all this in your face, and you do nothing. I'm beginning to wonder if this thread is serious. It's hard to believe that someone could be this wishy-washy. If it's real, brother, you have my utmost sympathy. I'm afraid you're going to be more and more miserable as time goes on and she pushes the limits and boundaries past any reasonable point. I hope to God you can come to some realization of what she's done to you and work on your self-respect, because it's obvious she has no respect for you. This is so awful!


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

You may be depressed, hurt and feeling cornered. If you don't stand up for you, do it for your kids. There are many things that eroded marriage, I think a major one is growing up in dysfunctional families with a poor marriage dynamic. Kids are much smarter than we think and they pick things up by mimicry at first. Please, do not pass this dysfunction on to your kids. Show them how to stand up for themselves before they reach adulthood.

Yes, 10 years is a long time, but one big sweeping change can show teens the right way to handle bad situations.


----------



## Q tip

R E A D. T H E. B O O K

M M S L P

NOW. SEVERAL TIMES!

You won't regret it. It will change you into the new Roller you want to be in the first place!!!


----------



## MattMatt

Roller, where do you live? I am asking because laws differ from place to place.


----------



## NoChoice

Ok, I've thought about this quite a bit and I can see no other explanation for your actions. You say you deeply love your wife but that cannot be true. Your inaction speaks volumes over mere words. Your family is under attack and you are okay with that? If for no other reason you should be setting an example for your children.

They have to be seeing at least some of this stuff going on and it may very well affect them for life. Are you okay with that? or are you so consumed with apathy that someone could set your hair on fire and you wouldn't care. 

Man, I understand low self esteem but this has to be some kind of record. You should at least feel some angst that you are financing her trysts. No, they are not trysts because a tryst is done in secrecy, she is flaunting hers in your face. Pull the financial plug. 

Again, if you won't do something for yourself do it for your kids. Do you want your sons to live a life like you are living or your daughters to behave like their mother?? You can't possibly be alright with that.

R, we're not trying to berate you but you are self destructing with this behavior. Just in the short time I've been posting here someone has lost a friend to depression. Don't let yourself get to that point SHE'S NOT WORTH IT! Man up, stand up and let the chips fall where they may. For the sake of your family. You might find her attraction redirects to the new man you've become but if not at least your not her patsy.


----------



## Roller

IcePrincess28 said:


> I'm sure someone will bring this up at some point- but is it possible that she has a little bit of a drinking problem? Is she able to stop at 2 drinks- or does she always have to go all out?


Again thank you for responding. My infedility (honestly a couple of kisses/bit more and a bit of fondling on two ocassions, both when we were on a trial-seperation) led to her wanting me back after throwing me away - a typical case of not being wanted until someone else showed interest in me!

Can she stop after 2 - yes - two (or three - honestly) bottles of wine and a few beers! No - she has very little control and there IS defo a drink problem.


----------



## Roller

OldWolf57 said:


> And don't say she is a great mom. If she truly is bipolar if you are not there they will be her target.
> 
> Look, start keeping a VAR,, "voice activated recorder" on you, or just use your fone. But doc. her abuse of you.
> Then have her kicked out with a RO.
> I mean really, don't you think your kids can see how depressed you have become.
> They know it's from mom's being a slyt. So Roller, if anything happened to you, they will hate this woman.
> 
> Do me a big favor,,, set up a trust and put everything in it, but make the admin someone you trust. like your boss, and leave her out of it.
> 
> You don't seem to care about your kids, only her and you.


Agree with all of that - but man, you can't say I don't care about the kids! Honestly, I'd be dead if I wasn't living for them. I with her to protect them from her! You kind-of contradict yourself, and I'm sure you don't mean it how I read it, but man, trust me, the ONLY thing I care about is my kids!


----------



## Roller

OldWolf57 said:


> I have too give credit. At least you are not using the kids as a reason not to kick her out.
> 
> Since you haven't mentioned them MUCH,, How are your kids handling all this tension??
> Or are they as self centered as her?


Kids are handling it pretty well, the middle one is trying to get involved, but by-enlarge they are at an age that they do their own thing. I'm not stupid and everyday I think that we've spoilt their lives and I will forever regret that. But. what little self-respect I do have, allows me to tell myself that I do all that I can to protect them from the hell it would be for them if I wasn't there to take the daily abuse a Narcissist needs to throw at someone.


----------



## TRy

Roller said:


> Emotional and verbal abuse for past part of 10 years does it to you - you just shut down. Only thing that'll work is that she sees me catch her with him - that way it's undeniable.
> 
> I'm a loser and a pri*k but the self-respect simply aint there pal.


 If you act like a doormat, you cannot be surprised that people will walk all over you.

She cannot love someone that she does not respect. You must begin to act worthy of respect. The best way to save your marriage is to be willing to end it. File for divorce and mean it. Do not look back. If she shows true remorse, is willing to act like your wife, and makes a real effort to save the marriage, then maybe take her back. It is not a sure thing that you will save the marriage, but the odds are better than you have now. Also, by doing this, you may really have a marriage worth having.


----------



## Roller

Dyokemm said:


> People can advise you til the end of time, but if you will not do anything with that advice then nothing will change for you.
> 
> You are the only person who can actually make a difference in your own life.


Fair point, what I'm saying is that I cannot right now, or at least before this level of straight-talking/advice/support from you guys it was I couldn't. I need/needed to know that it wasn't paranoia and whether I should work harder at it.

Not everyone is saying walk away, most are, but ALL are saying "grow a pair" and maybe that's exactly what I needed to hear. Professionally I have a pair - I have to have a pair - so maybe I'll take them home!!

Thanks.


----------



## Roller

murphy5 said:


> if she is not hiding it, you know about it, and can see the chats, then it is not cheating at all. It might be her way of sexually teasing you for better sex. But for sure, women like seeing they are attractive to younger men.
> 
> I would let her have her vicarious fun. I would have a serious talk about boundaries. Like she can chat all she wants, but never tell her name, phone number, address, actual age. Maybe you help her set up a fake persona to use in all cases.
> 
> After that, you might discuss what else she can/can not do. Like is it ok if she masturbates when she chats with these guys? Is it ok if she chats with guys who are masturbating at the time? What if they both had their cameras on? Is talk of perverse things, like bondage, gang bangs, certain role plays allowed?
> 
> And by all means, when she gets all horny talking with these guys, demand she run to wherever you are for a hot night of sex!


It's facebook - real life - real pictures, real name, REAL!


----------



## Chaparral

:whip::whip::whip::whip:


SamuraiJack said:


> Oh if only there was a whip-crack icon...


----------



## Roller

thummper said:


> Be prepared, Roller. She's been pushing the limits and now knows beyond a shadow of doubt that you *WON'T DO ANYTHING!* Her activities will become far more blunt and obvious. How soon until she starts bringing her new "friends" home to snuggle RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU on the couch? How soon until the adjourn to the bedroom with you outside the door listening to the sounds from the other side? She's laughing at you. She's made you the ogre to all her friends. And you just stand there and let it happen. :banghead: For God's sake, do something!!! I've spent months monitoring this site listening to, mostly men, bewail their fates. Not one of them has been as weak as you. You love her? No, you love the woman she used to be. She's not that person anymore. She's morphed into someone you barely recognize. She throws all this in your face, and you do nothing. I'm beginning to wonder if this thread is serious. It's hard to believe that someone could be this wishy-washy. If it's real, brother, you have my utmost sympathy. I'm afraid you're going to be more and more miserable as time goes on and she pushes the limits and boundaries past any reasonable point. I hope to God you can come to some realization of what she's done to you and work on your self-respect, because it's obvious she has no respect for you. This is so awful!


I swear to you it's ALL true and it is the short version. You are so right when you say "You love her? No, you love the woman she used to be. She's not that person anymore. She's morphed into someone you barely recognize"

Appreciate your comments.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Roller said:


> Appreciate the response, but I DO care. I care desperately, I'm very, very low and desperate because of it. If I could grow a pair I'd leave, but I'm struggling so, so much to decide whether that is the right thing for everyone. I've given my life to this person, I love her so, so much and somewhere in my mind I believe that she will one day wake-up to herself and change.
> 
> I wish I could put ME first, but I cannot. Someone said cuckold - possibly that's correct - but not by choice.


I would advise you to STOP loving her, put yourself first, and file for divorce. 

She doesn't love you. No loving wife would do to you what she has done to you. You know she is f--king these dudes right?

You speak of your own non existent infidelity that she brings up to friends in public? Is there anything to this?

How does a middle aged woman meet men half her age on Facebook? Facebook is designed to connect with those in your social circle. How did she befriend these guys?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## anchorwatch

Roller, 

She doesn't respect you, because you don't respect yourself enough to stand up for yourself. You seem to be afraid of the conflict, it will cause if you do. Do you always avoid conflict in life? 

Like the others have said, nothing will change unless you do. As far as you not havimg the strength to change, it's just like anything else, you need to practice, you need to train, you need to get focused, you need to get strong. 

Here is some reading that might help you, Read it, mull it over, make a choice, make a plan. Change can happen, you just need to take the first steps towards it. 

180 List

No More Mr Nice Guy, R Glover

Best


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Facebook is designed to connect with those in your social circle. How did she befriend these guys?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, it really isn't. That's the cover to make it family friendly. All you have to do is join one of the hundreds of thousands of open groups or forums and poof, you have an entirely new subset of people outside of your social group.


----------



## Q tip

Roller,

The point is have a plan. Read the book, Read newbie info areas here. Weightlifters sig has surveillance info from years of experience here. No one will tell you to R or D. But can give you a ton of help and advice.

We're here to give you a 2x4 upside the head as needed too.

Goal, Strategy, Plan. Study TAM. Read the books recommended. Get strong. Go to the gym, get buff. Really buff. See several lawyers. Ask TAM questions. There are no dumb ones.

Make her play checkers to your chess.


----------



## Sports Fan

Surely you cant be that silly. If this is a true post, than technically she is not cheating, since you have allowed this most foul behavour to flourish without any consequences of what so ever.

If anything you have given it your blessing. If on the other hand you dont like this most foul behavour that your wife is thrusting upon you, you can find some alpha bone in your body, do a complete 180 on her visit divorce lawyers, find out your rights, and present her with the account owing.

Only then might you have some chance of salvaging this deal. But then why would you want too.

On a final note you can rest assured she has slept with many guys. The golden rule of a cheater is to minimise and downplay their involvement in physical issues. 

What do you think she was doing in her nights in hotels?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

phillybeffandswiss said:


> No, it really isn't. That's the cover to make it family friendly. All you have to do is join one of the hundreds of thousands of open groups or forums and poof, you have an entirely new subset of people outside of your social group.


I know how Facebook works. Doesn't answer my question- how did she meet these guys? Who were they? They are all local, so we'd been led to believe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BrockLanders

Are you asking us if cheating is cheating? Are you posting from another dimension?


----------



## BrockLanders

This is a Briton trolling acting as an American. He says "behaviour" yet says "apartment" in place of flat. "Snogging?" Really? Look at the the incogruent speech.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

That's dancing with wooden shoes right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

BrockLanders said:


> Are you asking us if cheating is cheating? Are you posting from another dimension?


He knows it is cheating.

He just doesn't want to believe it.

"Not my honey! He/She would never cheat on me! Would they?"

It's a bad place to be. Lot of us have been there.


----------



## MattMatt

BrockLanders said:


> This is a Briton trolling acting as an American. He says "behaviour" yet says "apartment" in place of flat. "Snogging?" Really? Look at the the incogruent speech.


If you think this is so, press report.

Incidentally, apartment is somewhat common in UK English, too, so may not be relevant.


----------



## anchorwatch

BrockLanders said:


> This is a Briton trolling acting as an American. He says "behaviour" yet says "apartment" in place of flat. "Snogging?" Really? Look at the the incogruent speech.


Um hmm? 

What about it, Matt?


----------



## MattMatt

anchorwatch said:


> Um hmm?
> 
> What about it, Matt?


I am watching. But what? There's the rub.


----------



## BrockLanders

No American would add an extra U to your Norman derived nouns. We're simply too lazy to do so.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I know how Facebook works.


LOL. He hasn't been back to answer your question. I explained a reason because people think, it's all over TAM, exactly how you phrased that sentence.


----------



## gmsisko1

Roller said:


> Appreciate the response, but I DO care. I care desperately, I'm very, very low and desperate because of it. If I could grow a pair I'd leave, but I'm struggling so, so much to decide whether that is the right thing for everyone. I've given my life to this person, I love her so, so much and somewhere in my mind I believe that she will one day wake-up to herself and change.
> 
> I wish I could put ME first, but I cannot. Someone said cuckold - possibly that's correct - but not by choice.


I'm sorry you are here.
Imstrongly suggest of get proof of an affair.
I hate to say it, but odds are, your wife has been plowed multiple times by other men. (That thought saddens me)
Get a good key logger. (Like webwatcher)
After you have proof, expose far and wide. 
All of your friends and family need to know, and all of her friends need to know. The shame should help stop this crap.


----------



## BrockLanders

In translation, your wife is a munter who has been shagged by several blokes.


----------



## anchorwatch

BrockLanders said:


> In translation, your wife is a munter who has been shagged by several blokes.


I had to look up munter. Eww...


----------



## Chaparral

MattMatt said:


> I am watching. But what? There's the rub.


We've heard British custody fights favor the mom but what about teenagae boys? Would they make them stay with a mother such as this?


----------



## commonsenseisn't

Responding to your initial post... haven't read the others yet.

The relevant question is not "is it cheating?"

The relevant question is: Why isn't it obvious to you and when are you going to wake up and go ballistic on your wife?


----------



## BrockLanders

anchorwatch said:


> BrockLanders said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a Briton trolling acting as an American. He says "behaviour" yet says "apartment" in place of flat. "Snogging?" Really? Look at the the incogruent speech.
> 
> 
> 
> Um hmm?
> 
> What about it, Matt?
Click to expand...




Chaparral said:


> MattMatt said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am watching. But what? There's the rub.
> 
> 
> 
> We've heard British custody fights favor the mom but what about teenagae boys? Would they make them stay with a mother such as this?
Click to expand...

Get familiar with the vernacular. You'll see the issues. I'll probably be banned soon. It's very clear the dissonance between the two dialects.


----------



## Vulcan2013

Roller said:


> Again thank you for responding. My infedility (honestly a couple of kisses/bit more and a bit of fondling on two ocassions, both when we were on a trial-seperation) led to her wanting me back after throwing me away - a typical case of not being wanted until someone else showed interest in me!
> 
> Can she stop after 2 - yes - two (or three - honestly) bottles of wine and a few beers! No - she has very little control and there IS defo a drink problem.


So scratch "great mom" off. Active alcoholics are terrible parents. Take a look at who she is. Are you sure you want her in your life at all?


----------



## Roller

anchorwatch said:


> Roller,
> 
> She doesn't respect you, because you don't respect yourself enough to stand up for yourself. You seem to be afraid of the conflict, it will cause if you do. Do you always avoid conflict in life?
> 
> Like the others have said, nothing will change unless you do. As far as you not havimg the strength to change, it's just like anything else, you need to practice, you need to train, you need to get focused, you need to get strong.
> 
> Here is some reading that might help you, Read it, mull it over, make a choice, make a plan. Change can happen, you just need to take the first steps towards it.
> 
> 180 List
> 
> No More Mr Nice Guy, R Glover
> 
> Best


Thanks for the advice and reading suggestions. Yes, you are absolutely correct about conflict. My counselor has identified that I am scared of conflict and avoid it at all costs (costs normally to myself) as a result of a childhood experience.

Professionally I hire and fire, I regularly handle large amounts of money and take business-risks that I'm often complimented on. There are defo two sides to me - the business me (where I can wear a mask) and a personal me, where everyone else comes first and, in order to avoid conflict, I'm somewhere between the door-mat and the toilet-seat!


----------



## Roller

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I know how Facebook works. Doesn't answer my question- how did she meet these guys? Who were they? They are all local, so we'd been led to believe.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, all local guys, all "want" her. Problem is, she's seen as a bit of a challenge because she doesn't give-out that easy. I know that this sounds contradictory, but it's the "being wanted" that seems to turn her on, not the actual act.

It makes sense when you think about it - she has to justify everything in her head. So, the flirting/crudeness (which originates from the guys) is "not cheating" (in her head), the fact she dances and socialises openly with these guys in bars (in the company of her friends and people from our community) "cannot be cheating" because they are simply having fun and if she were cheating it would be hidden - you can hear people thinking "if her husband's OK with it........"

It's being chased that leads her on.

I'm sure (based on evidence) that the one time I know her to have gone back to his place, that they did not f**k. He wanted to and suffice it to say, she couldn't and I've seen sms from him that confirm that. I'm also confident that when she stays in hotels with her friends, that she has not slept with a guy. She needs to be seen as "not cheating" to keep the justification going in her head.

I'm not stupid enough to say that I know for a fact she hasn't f**k'd another guy since being with me - nobody can know, but I'm not hung up on that.

It's the being chased, the being admired and the undeniable (by denied) kissing, flirting and almost-emotional-affairs that kill me. Hence the question "is it cheating" - she absolutely, 100% convinces herself and those around her that she has NEVER cheated.

Yes a stereotypical alpha would have walked away, would have stood up for himself and made her life hell. Personally that isn't me. I'll take the **** to keep it from my kids, I'll look after her financially because $$$$'s mean nothing to me (I made my money once, I'll make it again if needed), I gave my word to look after her in sickness and in health and I feel she is sick - but that might be making excuses.

I genuinely appreciate everyone's feedback. Please don't think I'm ungrateful. I agree with the vast majority of what's been said, and to be honest, I'm closer to leaving than ever. However the main thing that I'm learning is that her contagious justification of her actions needs to be avoided and my own sense of what's "right" to prevail.

Thank you


----------



## Roller

BrockLanders said:


> This is a Briton trolling acting as an American. He says "behaviour" yet says "apartment" in place of flat. "Snogging?" Really? Look at the the incogruent speech.


FFS MAN!!! I'm not trolling. I'm an emotional mess who is scared that his Narcissistic wife will find this post and make it a MAJOR issue! PLEASE MAN, think about it!!

I was born in Scotland but spent most of my youth in the states due to my father's work. What possible difference does it make! I use various terms because it's all English and everyone understands what the important point is.

My apologies if I've offended you by "trolling", but why?!!!!

Sorry, I have more important things to worry about.


----------



## Roller

MattMatt said:


> He knows it is cheating.
> 
> He just doesn't want to believe it.
> 
> "Not my honey! He/She would never cheat on me! Would they?"
> 
> It's a bad place to be. Lot of us have been there.


I suppose that I have to agree if I'm honest.


----------



## Roller

Chaparral said:


> We've heard British custody fights favor the mom but what about teenagae boys? Would they make them stay with a mother such as this?


Brit courts nearly ALWAYS favour the mother, if I divorce, I go alone and she gets everything. I don't care about anything other than the boys, but it would be almost impossible for a guy to get the kids in UK unless you can prove abuse from her. And that in itself is another prob with Brit courts, not many women are found of being abusive in a relationship - it's always the big men - not the timid, small women.

As I keep saying, it's a damn lonely place to be! I'm not looking for your sympathy, your support in reading and replying (and where applicable advising) is why I used this Forum. For that, I thank you.


----------



## Chaparral

How is your sex life with your wife? 

Has it changed in the last few years? This is an important question though it may seem nosey.

Check the internet and buy a gps device for her car.

What kind of phone does she have?


----------



## Hardtohandle

After reading the first post of the OP  in this thread and the last 2 pages of responses. 

I am just going to say great advice by everyone.. I just think the shock factor needs to subside before any of this kicks in..

I am pretty sure he was hoping for stop being crazy and insecure.. 

Like MattMatt said, its a bad place to be in.. 

OP, whatever you do, just stick to this thread for all your questions and concerns even if it runs into new things.. Just makes it easier for those helping to follow along..


----------



## Roller

Hardtohandle said:


> .
> 
> OP, whatever you do, just stick to this thread for all your questions and concerns even if it runs into new things.. Just makes it easier for those helping to follow along..


Thanks, will do.


----------



## Jellybeans

Roller said:


> Yes, all local guys, all "want" her. Problem is, she's seen as a bit of a challenge because she doesn't give-out that easy.


Actually, your wife sounds very "easy." Being that she tells you about all the men she makes out with and goes home with. Sounds like she's kind of known as the married town bicycle.


----------



## Roller

Chaparral said:


> How is your sex life with your wife?
> 
> Has it changed in the last few years? This is an important question though it may seem nosey.
> 
> Check the internet and buy a gps device for her car.
> 
> What kind of phone does she have?


I suppose this will be the answer you expect, at least in parts.

It's always been down to me to instigate, try anything new, etc (a few exceptions, but try on the whole)

Before marriage - regular, good, no problems

First few years of marriage - no obvious problems apart from getting a little tired maybe.

Tried for kids - it was just a (almost) daily effort that was a means to an end.

After kids - months and months of no sex (like 9-10 months at a time)

After facebook and growth in her confidence - quite regular and then she started being with these friends. All of a sudden there was loads of sex - again down to me to instigate, but I did!!

Recently - still fairly regular, pretty much when I want it and occasionally when she does - but I don't seem to satisfy her even though I will spend ages doing everything I can - she will not let herself enjoy it. Maybe I'm just bad at it, having not been with anyone else, ever, I don't really now!

In short, I think she gives-out to me out of duty and occasionally cos she's horny - probably thinking about some other dude!


----------



## Roller

Jellybeans said:


> Actually, your wife sounds very "easy." Being that she tells you about all the men she makes out with and goes home with. Sounds like she's kind of known as the married town bicycle.


Nah, maybe I misled on this, she USED to tell me what when on (always her friend, never her), but for years now she tells me nothing. I have to ask, and then I get the slightly-grown-up-fairytale version and huge details are withheld!

Compared to some of those around her, she's the "challenge" rather than the easy bike, but we all love a challenge don't we


----------



## PhillyGuy13

So she meets these young, local guys on Facebook, and they are all now part of her social circle with her friends. 

And all her friends love having these guys around?

OR, her and her friends meet this group of young guys out, flirting and kissing Etc etc. Sees them when she is out with friends, sexts with them on Facebook otherwise. 

Of course in either scenario, she isn't going to report her bad behavior back to you. Sounds like her toxic friends got down and dirty first, which she reported back to you on, but eventually she decided to play as well, lest she he branded a party pooper from her friends. So the reports to you ceased.

Do you actually know who these young men are? You know she is texting them online so I assume you know who they are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

What kind of phone does she have?


----------



## Chaparral

The sex thing is perplexing.

Should could be holding back on her orgasam for a reason.

Generally, a change in your sex life, whether for better or worse is an indicator of cheating.

A decrease can be indicative of a as being in love.

An increase can be caused by a as getting sex elsewhere and generally being turned on and wanting more sex all around including you.

I think she is having sex with you to keep you in line but just going through the motions because she saves hat for someone else.

The best answer would be no change to a good sex life.

The months of no sex indicate a serious problem that she is now trying to cover up.


----------



## Chaparral

You need to put a key logger on the computer.


----------



## Roller

PhillyGuy13 said:


> So she meets these young, local guys on Facebook, and they are all now part of her social circle with her friends.
> 
> And all her friends love having these guys around?
> 
> OR, her and her friends meet this group of young guys out, flirting and kissing Etc etc. Sees them when she is out with friends, sexts with them on Facebook otherwise.
> 
> Of course in either scenario, she isn't going to report her bad behavior back to you. Sounds like her toxic friends got down and dirty first, which she reported back to you on, but eventually she decided to play as well, lest she he branded a party pooper from her friends. So the reports to you ceased.
> 
> Do you actually know who these young men are? You know she is texting them online so I assume you know who they are.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep, definitely "not being a party pooper" is a driver, as is the need to be more attractive to more guys than her friends. A desperate need to fit in and be like them - but "more"! 

Typical bi-polar/narcissist I believe - addictive personality. So starts off being wanting to be similar to someone (one or more friends) but the addiction takes over to the point that you live for whatever that is (partying/flirting/receving admiration/having milf-chasers/etc).


----------



## Roller

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Do you actually know who these young men are? You know she is texting them online so I assume you know who they are.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes I do, most are local-ish.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Roller said:


> Yes I do, most are local-ish.


Kissing my wife? I'd have a Come to Jesus meeting with them.


----------



## GusPolinski

/yawn

Someone ping me once (a) OP is "outed" and/or (b) he catches 3 or 4 20-something d**chebags from the gym/club/AM/whatever in a MILF gangbang w/ his WW.


----------



## Roller

GusPolinski said:


> /yawn
> 
> Someone ping me once (a) OP is "outed" and/or (b) he catches 3 or 4 20-something d**chebags from the gym/club/AM/whatever in a MILF gangbang w/ his WW.


Yeah, thanks, much appreciated. What do you mean by "outed" - I'm very confused. I don't wish to become a member of a forum and offend anyone or use it in some way that experienced members find inappropriate.

I'm a guy who has some major issues with his marriage. Consequently I thought that everything I said (openly and honestly) here showed that. I'm hiding nothing other than what I need to to protect my identity.

I'd be grateful if someone could confirm whether I've done anything inappropriate.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

They don't believe your story because of your..... You are writing in a way that makes you and your story questionable. I'll leave it at that.

You aren't doing anything wrong. People are basically walking right up to the line of being inappropriate and breaking ToS


----------



## Roller

phillybeffandswiss said:


> They don't believe your story because of your..... You are writing in a way that makes you and your story questionable. I'll leave it at that.
> 
> You aren't doing anything wrong. People are basically walking right up to the line of being inappropriate and breaking ToS


Thanks, but honestly I don't understand, because it is the truth. Look at the time of my postings - it's clear that I am in Europe and my profile even says "England". 

I write in a mix of American English and British English for reasons I've explained and it's how I use all forums (professionally and personally).

I've been as open and honest as I can be without being so "obvious" as to expose my exact location and who I'm talking about.

Specifically I don't "get" what some people think I'd want to achieve by lying. I used this forum to work-out whether I was being over-protective, whether her justifications (for her actions) were fair. Basically because I wanted to see the woods for the trees.

I'm a door mat who wishes to grow a pair, but is afraid that may make me more unhappy than being a door-mat. At least not growing a pair, means I retain what I know - being a submissive.

I'm not looking for sympathy, I looking for honesty and reassurance that my feelings are in keeping with others. 

I simply cannot be any more honest than I have been here.


----------



## FromEurope

I only have 1 question to ask you......

So..... what are you going to do about this situation?


----------



## ArmyofJuan

Roller said:


> Yep, definitely "not being a party pooper" is a driver, as is the need to be more attractive to more guys than her friends. A desperate need to fit in and be like them - but "more"!
> 
> Typical bi-polar/narcissist I believe - addictive personality. So starts off being wanting to be similar to someone (one or more friends) but the addiction takes over to the point that you live for whatever that is (partying/flirting/receving admiration/having milf-chasers/etc).


If this is truly the case with her you need to plan your exit. You are not going to change her and her inappropriateness is just going to escalate from your enabling behavior.

If you are not willing or capable of changing yourself then you need to get out of the situation. She has already crossed so many lines and dollar to donuts she has no intention of going back. 

You should not ever have to compete with other men when you are already in a relationship. If you feel like you have to then the relationship has no meaning. 

I suspect there's not going to be a happy ending here, its just a matter of who's terms is it going to end on.


----------



## Roller

FromEurope said:


> I only have 1 question to ask you......
> 
> So..... what are you going to do about this situation?


Fair question.

My original question was "is it cheating" and with that in mind, the overwhelming consensus of those who have responded is that YES it is. So, question answered and I thank each respondent for that.

That means, I suppose, that the next logical question is the one you ask. In a buying-time type answer, I'd say that in the short term, I am doing what anchorwatch recommended and reading the 180 List and the excellent (thus far) guide "No More Mr Nice Guy" by R Glover.

Longer term, if I'm honest I think I have to plan for D because we've tried R so many times. At this point in time I don't see her changing - even if I do manage to start changing from the "nice guy" that R Glover refers to in his book/guide.

In all honesty, I just wish she's make it easy for me - have a full affair or leave me. I'm really struggling to be the one to leave.


----------



## Roller

ArmyofJuan said:


> You should not ever have to compete with other men when you are already in a relationship. If you feel like you have to then the relationship has no meaning.
> .


I agree totally with that statement.


----------



## FromEurope

Roller said:


> Fair question.
> 
> My original question was "is it cheating" and with that in mind, the overwhelming consensus of those who have responded is that YES it is. So, question answered and I thank each respondent for that.
> 
> That means, I suppose, that the next logical question is the one you ask. In a buying-time type answer, I'd say that in the short term, I am doing what anchorwatch recommended and reading the 180 List and the excellent (thus far) guide "No More Mr Nice Guy" by R Glover.
> 
> Longer term, if I'm honest I think I have to plan for D because we've tried R so many times. At this point in time I don't see her changing - even if I do manage to start changing from the "nice guy" that R Glover refers to in his book/guide.
> 
> In all honesty, I just wish she's make it easy for me - have a full affair or leave me. I'm really struggling to be the one to leave.



Ok... so your next steps are going to be: 180 and a total change of treatment. Are you strong enough for the roller coaster of emotions that will come eventualy? Will you be able to harden your heart when she will be faking remorse or trying to manipulate you?


----------



## livnlearn

Roller said:


> Yeah, thanks, much appreciated. What do you mean by "outed" - I'm very confused. I don't wish to become a member of a forum and offend anyone or use it in some way that experienced members find inappropriate.
> 
> I'm a guy who has some major issues with his marriage. Consequently I thought that everything I said (openly and honestly) here showed that. I'm hiding nothing other than what I need to to protect my identity.
> 
> I'd be grateful if someone could confirm whether I've done anything inappropriate.


Instead of assuming all posts are legit..or just not responding if they think a post isn't, some people around here get a thrill out of pointing out what they think is a troll post and then some even go on to mock the person. It makes people sincerely seeking help feel awkward and unwelcome. It's rude. My apologies for the group.


----------



## Roller

livnlearn said:


> Instead of assuming all posts are legit..or just not responding if they think a post isn't, some people around here get a thrill out of pointing out what they think is a troll post and then some even go on to mock the person. It makes people sincerely seeking help feel awkward and unwelcome. It's rude. My apologies for the group.


That is my unfortunate experience of a minority. Somewhat perplexing in a support forum where some very low people (such as myself) come looking for advice.

Just because I can belittle my situation and my inability to respect myself openly doesn't mean it doesn't hurt me to do so. When you are at rock-bottom beating yourself down doesn't hurt as much - that's why I can do it.

I am sincerely thankful for your response. I was very confused.


----------



## NoChoice

Roller,

There is no doubt that this is cheating, on multiple levels and with multiple people but it's more than that also. 

I think the real question is are you happy enough in your present state to accept things as ongoing. It may (will) escalate as your perceived approval of her behavior is acknowledged by her. So figure that into your answer. If you are okay with that then we are basically done here and your lot is cast. If you are not okay with that life then "asserting yourself" and standing up to her and possibly making it worse is the only other choice.

I've never been to Europe are there no women there? You act as though this is the only woman in all of Britain. I am almost certain she is not. Why would you not want find someone who respects, honors and even adores you? There may exist such a woman but I doubt she will magically fall from the sky and onto your lap. You will have to make your life better, if you want to. I do very much understand you taking this for the sake of the children and applaud you for so doing. The choice is yours my friend. I wish you luck and happiness.


----------



## Roller

FromEurope said:


> Ok... so your next steps are going to be: 180 and a total change of treatment. Are you strong enough for the roller coaster of emotions that will come eventualy? Will you be able to harden your heart when she will be faking remorse or trying to manipulate you?


In a word NO - I won't manage the full (or anywhere near) the 180, but the No more nice guy bit seems to be making sense. So far, it's allowed me to understand why I am how I am - if that makes sense. Building on that, I'd like to think that it will allow me to put myself first occasionally - not always, but at least allow myself to accept my feelings.

Whether I can then act on those feelings, I don't know. But thinking positively - I can say that I am work in progress and certainly in a better place than I was this time yesterday.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Have you ever tried to put your foot down with her

"Stay away from these men, if you have any respect for me you will no longer continue to interact with these men online, in person, or otherwise. You are my wife. It is about time you start acting like it."

If she agrees, then you can both begin to rebuild your relationship. If she does not agree, then that should hopefully give you the courage to do the right thing - kick her to the curb.


----------



## Chaparral

How many years has this been going on?

Go to amazon.com and download MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER. It will explain why your wife lost respect for you and what you can do to get it back. It isn't 100% guaranteed to work but it will make you the man your next wife needs in the event it doesn't.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Couple of more resources for you

Books:
Emotional Blackmail (to prepare yourself for her narcissistic rants)
Not Just Friends (to help further classify her behavior)
Boundaries by Townsend (this will help you flesh out the 180 a bit)

I'm glad you recognize her addiction to narcissitic feeds/supply. That awareness alone will bode very well for you in navigating something like the 180. You truly do have to detach to a degree from her as if she is an addict. You have to engage in boundaries which begins defining constructive and destructive behavioral choices and lets her know which ones you will no longer tolerate. 

I can hear your abuse scars.... SELF DOUBT. Even though it was glaring poor behavioral choices... you had to come here for confirmation, which is just evidence of your abuse scars. So, too is the description of two sides of you in being able to handle a massive amount of pressure, yet doubt yourself at deep levels. This truly is the dilemma of abuse survivors who aren't fully out of the fray. You survived your childhood, but chose this one to marry. So, I see this narcissistic abuse of hers as a larger problem than the infidelity and to be honest, the infidelity as just a part of the narcissistic abuse already present. 

If I were in your shoes... I would pull back hard and study hard on the narcissism side of this more so than the infidelity for a time. It sounds like you already have to a degree, which will serve you well, but take some time to view the infidelity within the larger umbrella of the narcissitic abuse. It will end up playing heavy in your decision to reconcile or not. Narcissistic disordered persons are not good reconciliation material. I think you are going to find the 180 your best friend. Reach out to a VERY strong counselor who specializes in PTSD, Trauma recovery, is very familiar with Narcissistic personality disorder OR Adult children types. Your question will become "am I married to an adolescent in an adult womans body" or "am I married to a Narcissistic Personality Disordered person"... these are worlds apart and will take time to find out ....and will affect your final decision heavily.


----------



## GusPolinski

GusPolinski said:


> /yawn
> 
> Someone ping me once (a) OP is "outed" and/or (b) he catches 3 or 4 20-something d**chebags from the gym/club/AM/whatever in a MILF gangbang w/ his WW.





Roller said:


> Yeah, thanks, much appreciated. What do you mean by "outed" - I'm very confused. I don't wish to become a member of a forum and offend anyone or use it in some way that experienced members find inappropriate.
> 
> I'm a guy who has some major issues with his marriage. Consequently I thought that everything I said (openly and honestly) here showed that. I'm hiding nothing other than what I need to to protect my identity.
> 
> I'd be grateful if someone could confirm whether I've done anything inappropriate.


Kinda busy right now, so I'll come back to this later. For now, though, let me just say this... _I'm not trying to run you off, Roller_; I'm trying to get you to *WAKE. THE. F*CK. UP.* Of the two scenarios that I listed above, I think that the latter is the more likely of the two. Why? Well, you said it yourself... you're a doormat. Now it's time to NOT BE. MMSLP and NMMNG will help you w/ that.

Now... as far as getting some solid, definitive answers for yourself regarding the degree of impropriety involved in your wife's current sh*tty behavior, answer this question... _What kind of phone does she use?_ If it's an iPhone, read this...



GusPolinski said:


> Wondershare Dr. Fone
> 
> The above link is for the Mac version of Wondershare's Dr. Fone app. There is a Windows version available as well.
> 
> You can use the app in one of three ways...
> 
> 1. Start the app on your Mac or PC and connect the iPhone in order to export texts (SMS/iMessage, and even some 3rd party apps), pics, recent phone calls, voicemails, contacts, etc directly from the phone.
> 
> 2. Start the app and use it to export the same data from one or more locally-stored iTunes backups of the phone.
> 
> 3. Start the app and log into iCloud using the Apple iTunes user ID (this will be an e-mail address) and password that your wife uses w/ her phone. If she has iCloud backups enabled on her phone, you'll be able to use the app to download several of the most recent backups for her phone, and then export the data mentioned above from them.
> 
> The app will allow you to export any of the above data that hasn't been deleted, _as well as *at least some of* what has been recently deleted_. If you don't find anything conclusive on the first pass, you can always begin exporting once or twice a day.
> 
> Make sure that you save and back up your exports! Use a USB memory stick or external hard drive (something that you can hide easily) to store them and, once you feel that you have enough evidence, consider leaving it in a safe deposit box. Additionally, store everything offsite in at least a couple of different "Cloud" locations (Carbonite, Dropbox, Google Drive, SugarSync, etc). When doing this, make sure that you're simply uploading the data instead of syncing it from your local Mac or PC; if you're simply syncing, and your wife finds and deletes the data locally, you'll lose your Cloud-based backups.


----------



## Chaparral

Regarding the 180, pay particular attention to the be cheerful part and the do not talk about he relationship part unless she brings it up. The 180 isn't something to hit them over the head with. It is designed to prepare you to move on.

Thogh it may seem counter intuitive, the 180 will have her wondering if you've had enough and it can have the effect of bringing a wayward wife back into line when they realize they have lost control and their life is going to go through drastic changes.

Are you paying for her wanderings? Are you tracking credit card expenditures?

The guys are hanging with her for some reason. Its either sex or money. Carefully check for credit/debit card purchases for cash withdrawals while making a purchase.


----------



## Roller

Chaparral said:


> How many years has this been going on?


The bit that I came here to ask about (the "is it cheating") - about 6-7 years. 

The Narcissistic abuse - about 10 years.


----------



## GusPolinski

Roller said:


> The bit that I came here to ask about (the "is it cheating") - about 6-7 years.
> 
> The Narcissistic abuse - about 10 years.


How old are your kids?


----------



## Roller

Blossom Leigh said:


> Couple of more resources for you
> 
> Books:
> Emotional Blackmail (to prepare yourself for her narcissistic rants)
> Not Just Friends (to help further classify her behavior)
> Boundaries by Townsend (this will help you flesh out the 180 a bit)
> 
> I'm glad you recognize her addiction to narcissitic feeds/supply. That awareness alone will bode very well for you in navigating something like the 180. You truly do have to detach to a degree from her as if she is an addict. You have to engage in boundaries which begins defining constructive and destructive behavioral choices and lets her know which ones you will no longer tolerate.
> 
> I can hear your abuse scars.... SELF DOUBT. Even though it was glaring poor behavioral choices... you had to come here for confirmation, which is just evidence of your abuse scars. So, too is the description of two sides of you in being able to handle a massive amount of pressure, yet doubt yourself at deep levels. This truly is the dilemma of abuse survivors who aren't fully out of the fray. You survived your childhood, but chose this one to marry. So, I see this narcissistic abuse of hers as a larger problem than the infidelity and to be honest, the infidelity as just a part of the narcissistic abuse already present.
> 
> If I were in your shoes... I would pull back hard and study hard on the narcissism side of this more so than the infidelity for a time. It sounds like you already have to a degree, which will serve you well, but take some time to view the infidelity within the larger umbrella of the narcissitic abuse. It will end up playing heavy in your decision to reconcile or not. Narcissistic disordered persons are not good reconciliation material. I think you are going to find the 180 your best friend. Reach out to a VERY strong counselor who specializes in PTSD, Trauma recovery, is very familiar with Narcissistic personality disorder OR Adult children types. Your question will become "am I married to an adolescent in an adult womans body" or "am I married to a Narcissistic Personality Disordered person"... these are worlds apart and will take time to find out ....and will affect your final decision heavily.


Thank you. What you identify very much confirmes what I feel after working through it with a counselor for a few months now.

The abuse-scars are indeed what allows me to be (what someone here called) "wishy-washy" about her cheating - it's just another load of sh*t to deal with, and compared to being abused verbally, it's actually easier. 

I'm honestly sometimes glad that she's "out", because it gives me a break from the BS and abuse (and the BS used to justify the abuse). Normally, the morning after she's been out she's "nice", so again it's a break.

The NPD is certainly the main issue affecting me, but the confirmation of whether she was cheating was also needed and hence it's what I asked in my OP.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Life is too short to put up with that level of bullsh!t.


----------



## GusPolinski

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Life is too short to put up with that level of bullsh!t.


Word.


----------



## jorgegene

"I think there's nothing more unattractive and desperate- than a married woman with teenage children, acting like a party girl. And by that, i mean she focuses on drinking in single environments. She craves the attention of men- but she has a man- you. There's nothing attractive about that. Honestly- as you know- when it comes to men- the ones without morals and values- will pork anything. Has nothing to do with how good your wife thinks she looks." from IcePrincess28

Wow...........

This is so good and to the point, it's gotta be repeated every page of this thread.

I wish I could catch a plane to merry 'ol England take this and bash her over the head with it.


----------



## Roller

GusPolinski said:


> How old are your kids?


All in their teens - I'll PM you if you want exact, but rather not give that level of detail on open forum.

Hope you understand why.


----------



## GusPolinski

Roller said:


> All in their teens - I'll PM you if you want exact, but rather not give that level of detail on open forum.
> 
> Hope you understand why.


For sure... don't provide any info that you're not comfortable providing. I was just going to break out the standard "DNA your kids!" if they happened to be younger... as in born within the past few years.


----------



## Roller

GusPolinski said:


> For sure... don't provide any info that you're not comfortable providing. I was just going to break out the standard "DNA your kids!" if they happened to be younger... as in born within the past few years.


Thanks, but I'm sure that they are mine. I can see where you are coming from though!

I'm not just saying "I don't think she's slept with him/them" because I want it to be true, I genuinely think it is true. 

If anything (and you won't believe me) it would be easier if she had - because chances are, he'd be boasting about it, he is that type of guy. He's not Alpha, he just wants to be!

Whilst (let's assume) she hasn't slept with someone, her justifying kinda works for her. I'm not sure that would be the case if she had.........but then again, she'd probably make-up some new justification!

In all honesty, it makes no difference. If the sexting/flirting/partying/kissing/etc is "cheating" and general the respondents seem to agree that it is, then it's "cheating" and the gory details don't really matter.......but if I caught her physically doing something (rather than "virtual" - phone/computer/etc) I THINK I'd find walking away easier.


----------



## SamuraiJack

The fact is she doesnt respect you.
That alone is reason to throw her sorry butt onto the street.

Start with your power weapon: Money.
Take total control, cut her off, 180 her butt and go get the life you want and deserve.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

You know what Roller. I had to get into horses to get a live visual of just how far I was letting others violate me. You are where I was about ten years ago. Its ghastly when that visual comes into view. My damage took having to take practice protecting myself from a 1500 pound horse barreling down on my personal space before I would choose to protect myself. Eventually it translated over to my human world and eventually rocked my abusers back on their heels. Glad you are truly starting to emerge into your next life chapter.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Roller said:


> If anything (and you won't believe me) it would be easier if she had - because chances are, he'd be boasting about it, he is that type of guy. He's not Alpha, he just wants to be!.


Again, there should be a Come to Jesus meeting.

Or just get rid of her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Roller said:


> Thank you. What you identify very much confirmes what I feel after working through it with a counselor for a few months now.
> 
> The abuse-scars are indeed what allows me to be (what someone here called) "wishy-washy" about her cheating
> 
> The NPD is certainly the main issue affecting me, but the confirmation of whether she was cheating was also needed and hence it's what I asked in my OP.


Wishy washy is actually not the right word for it. 

It's like seeing the fire and knowing it will burn you, but for some reason you don't feel compelled to move to safety. There is a numbness there. Your "radar" for danger is broken. Someone smashed it with a hammer. You have in essence just called over your shoulder to the fire department guys standing over your shoulder (us) and yelled... "hey guys, um, am I smelling smoke?" when there is a raging inferno headed your way AND YOU can see it. THIS is the part of me that is so hard to get people to understand. I could look at my husband holding the knife to his throat and walking towards me instead of me running away, I walked right up to him and took the knife out of his hand. In retrospect, my danger meter is broken, so I have learned to be aware of it and it comes directly from being exposed to an extreme level of abuse in the past. "Hi, nice to meet you, Roller, my name is Blossom." Sorry you went through what you did to understand what I'm saying.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I too have to go outside myself to "size up" the threat. So, I applaud you for doing that in order to find your most accurate productive path. Now just needs to come the courage...


I have a link in my signature line that may interest you on Stockholm Syndrome.


----------



## Roller

Blossom Leigh said:


> Wishy washy is actually not the right word for it.
> 
> It's like seeing the fire and knowing it will burn you, but for some reason you don't feel compelled to move to safety. There is a numbness there. Your "radar" for danger is broken. Someone smashed it with a hammer. You have in essence just called over your shoulder to the fire department guys standing over your shoulder (us) and yelled... "hey guys, um, am I smelling smoke?" when there is a raging inferno headed your way AND YOU can see it. THIS is the part of me that is so hard to get people to understand. I could look at my husband holding the knife to his throat and walking towards me instead of me running away, I walked right up to him and took the knife out of his hand. In retrospect, my danger meter is broken, so I have learned to be aware of it and it comes directly from being exposed to an extreme level of abuse in the past. "Hi, nice to meet you, Roller, my name is Blossom." Sorry you went through what you did to understand what I'm saying.


Great to meet you Blossom. You put it so well. Getting people to understand the effects of non-physical violence and abuse is very difficult. In my experience, the symptoms vary massively from person to person.

I'm a big guy, she's petite. I'm heart-on-sleeve, she's multi-faced. How the hell could I be the abused, especially when she convinces everyone that I'm abusive?!!

I do see it for what it is........like you say, it's the ability to process the obvious, logical, clear-as-day what-to-do-next move is the difficult bit. That, and the fact I'm terrified of what me leaving her will bring - more public abuse and embarrassment. She'll stop at nothing to make people think I've been abusive to her, that I've been unfaithful to her, etc.


----------



## GusPolinski

Roller said:


> Thanks, but I'm sure that they are mine. I can see where you are coming from though!
> 
> I'm not just saying "I don't think she's slept with him/them" because I want it to be true, I genuinely think it is true.
> 
> If anything (and you won't believe me) it would be easier if she had - because chances are, he'd be boasting about it, he is that type of guy. He's not Alpha, he just wants to be!
> 
> Whilst (let's assume) she hasn't slept with someone, her justifying kinda works for her. I'm not sure that would be the case if she had.........but then again, she'd probably make-up some new justification!


Dude... she's cheating. And I mean FULL ON cheating. As in she's been spending huge swaths of time escorting strange c*ck into her birth canal. It's not about one guy... it's about LOTS of other guysssss... PLURAL.

Sorry man... but you need to wake up, and it's probably this little nugget right here that is keeping you in limbo...



Roller said:


> In all honesty, it makes no difference. If the sexting/flirting/partying/kissing/etc is "cheating" and general the respondents seem to agree that it is, then it's "cheating" and the gory details don't really matter.......but if I caught her physically doing something (rather than "virtual" - phone/computer/etc) I THINK I'd find walking away easier.


Roller, you KNOW that she's cheating. You know it down to your bones. You don't want to face it directly, though, because you realize that doing so will prompt the few tattered shreds of pride and self-respect that remain within you to absolutely demand that you kick her to the curb.


----------



## GusPolinski

Roller said:


> Great to meet you Blossom. You put it so well. Getting people to understand the effects of non-physical violence and abuse is very difficult. In my experience, the symptoms vary massively from person to person.
> 
> I'm a big guy, she's petite. I'm heart-on-sleeve, she's multi-faced. *How the hell could I be the abused, especially when she convinces everyone that I'm abusive?!!*
> 
> I do see it for what it is........like you say, it's the ability to process the obvious, logical, clear-as-day what-to-do-next move is the difficult bit. That, and the fact I'm terrified of what me leaving her will bring - more public abuse and embarrassment. She'll stop at nothing to make people think I've been abusive to her, that I've been unfaithful to her, etc.


This alone would be enough for me to pull the plug and walk away. How anyone can stand for his or her spouse to bash him or her in such a cold, cruel, calculated, and heartless manner is just beyond me.

Read this again...



GusPolinski said:


> "Only a kiss"...
> 
> LOL... Yeah, right. EHHH!!! WRONG!!!
> 
> Anyway, if you have to ask "Is it cheating...?", then yes... it very likely is.
> 
> *And all of the "stop trying to control me", "you don't own me" bullsh*t is exactly that... BULLSH*T. It's nothing more than skin-deep faux feminism designed to throw you off-kilter and shame you into feeling like an abusive, controlling neanderthal. Don't fall for it!*


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Roller said:


> Great to meet you Blossom. You put it so well. Getting people to understand the effects of non-physical violence and abuse is very difficult. In my experience, the symptoms vary massively from person to person.
> 
> I'm a big guy, she's petite. I'm heart-on-sleeve, she's multi-faced. How the hell could I be the abused, especially when she convinces everyone that I'm abusive?!!
> 
> I do see it for what it is........like you say, it's the ability to process the obvious, logical, clear-as-day what-to-do-next move is the difficult bit. That, and the fact I'm terrified of what me leaving her will bring - more public abuse and embarrassment. She'll stop at nothing to make people think I've been abusive to her, that I've been unfaithful to her, etc.


Yep... same M.O. as my NPD mother. Trying to deflect attention off of her abuse and onto me. The lingering long term affects of her abuse are serious. and at one time felt deadly to me. That's how I knew reconciling with her was never possible. She too never apologizes and is never in the wrong, lies and rewrites history. True NPD's make you into an object (they don't even know you very well, only just well enough to illicit submission, once you submit they don't care about the rest of your life) vs adult adolescents who just pitch a fit when you first start holding them accountable (my husband) until they start accepting it and have the capacity for remorse, empathy and humility and ultimately care about your life and can finish growing up. NPD'ers don't, they border sadistic methods and are NOT safe. AND they will recruit proxies to injure you in some cases. It's a mess. Hope you can navigate this well.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

By the way... hoping you have discovered this..

reasonable accountability is NOT abuse

Learning to protect your psychological boundaries is going to be a God send for you.


----------



## Chaparral

Roller said:


> The bit that I came here to ask about (the "is it cheating") - about 6-7 years.
> 
> The Narcissistic abuse - about 10 years.


Can a person develope narcissisim later in life? Is this what's really the problem? I was under the impression it started as a child.


----------



## Machiavelli

PBear said:


> Is it cheating? Not really, since you know and apparently accept what's going on. The term cuckold comes to mind...
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A *cuckold* is in the dark about what's going on and "technically" is raising the OM's kid unknowingly. This guy knows his wife is getting plowed so that makes him a *wittol*.


----------



## treyvion

ArmyofJuan said:


> If this is truly the case with her you need to plan your exit. You are not going to change her and her inappropriateness is just going to escalate from your enabling behavior.
> 
> If you are not willing or capable of changing yourself then you need to get out of the situation. She has already crossed so many lines and dollar to donuts she has no intention of going back.
> 
> You should not ever have to compete with other men when you are already in a relationship. If you feel like you have to then the relationship has no meaning.
> 
> I suspect there's not going to be a happy ending here, its just a matter of who's terms is it going to end on.


She may NEVER end it, because it feels great to know you are loved so that you can have multiple flings on the side and that your man still loves you and takes care of you. So it is an IDEAL situation for a true cheater or promiscous person.


----------



## treyvion

Cubby said:


> Her type is unattractive, except to one group--Pickup artists....who are attracted to her because she's an easy target.


No that's not true. The club scene will bang her too. Some easy sex that you don't have to bend over backwards to get is always welcome.

Of course they are all just using her for that purpose and I'm sure she thinks it means something as she craps all over her husband and relationship.


----------



## Machiavelli

Roller,

I don't know why you want to stay with a NPD bi-polar slvtwife, but that's your business. However, let me tell you that if you'd shape up, get your testosterone levels up to normal for your age, you would be quite a catch for younger, hotter, and saner woman. You're only 40, so you've got your whole life ahead of you.

How often do women hit on you?


----------



## treyvion

IcePrincess28 said:


> I'm a 28 year old woman- and when I go out- I don't get much attention. So she's right about that. Why? bc I have a BF, who is with me (unless for an occasional girls' night- during which I dance my butt off- with my girl friends, and we only dance with each other, and i'm the designated driver) - and I snub any guys who try to advance me whenever he goes to the restroom.
> 
> I think there's nothing more unattractive and desperate- than a married woman with teenage children, acting like a party girl. And by that, i mean she focuses on drinking in single environments. She craves the attention of men- but she has a man- you. There's nothing attractive about that. Honestly- as you know- when it comes to men- the ones without morals and values- will pork anything. Has nothing to do with how good your wife thinks she looks.
> 
> Who is paying for her alcohol, hotel rooms, weekends out ? If she has a credit card. She's probably paying for a couple of those guys' night on the town.
> 
> Oh- and to answer your question- yes!


The irony of all of these cheated on situations is that the HUSBAND likely pays for a hotel room and dinner with the other guy! That's how it goes down.


----------



## Roller

Machiavelli said:


> Roller,
> 
> I don't know why you want to stay with a NPD bi-polar slvtwife, but that's your business. However, let me tell you that if you'd shape up, get your testosterone levels up to normal for your age, you would be quite a catch for younger, hotter, and saner woman. You're only 40, so you've got your whole life ahead of you.
> 
> How often do women hit on you?


Thanks! Erm, not too often, but then I don't "look" for it - I don't really go out and when I do, I feel I have to account for every conversation and moment of my time when questioned when I get home.

I feel that I cannot trust anyone - that everyone is looking-out for her interests. I believe that is another scar of abuse - the paranoia.

All that said, I'm confident that I get the occasional "interest".


----------



## GusPolinski

IcePrincess28 said:


> I'm a 28 year old woman- and when I go out- I don't get much attention. So she's right about that. Why? bc I have a BF, who is with me (unless for an occasional girls' night- during which I dance my butt off- with my girl friends, and we only dance with each other, and i'm the designated driver) - and I snub any guys who try to advance me whenever he goes to the restroom.
> 
> *I think there's nothing more unattractive and desperate- than a married woman with teenage children, acting like a party girl. And by that, i mean she focuses on drinking in single environments. She craves the attention of men- but she has a man- you. There's nothing attractive about that. Honestly- as you know- when it comes to men- the ones without morals and values- will pork anything. Has nothing to do with how good your wife thinks she looks. *
> 
> Who is paying for her alcohol, hotel rooms, weekends out ? If she has a credit card. She's probably paying for a couple of those guys' night on the town.
> 
> Oh- and to answer your question- yes!


These types of women are definitely unattractive from a long-term relationship/"wife and mother of my children" perspective, but that's not what the guys who make advances on these types of women are after.

Well... unless they're just f*cking stupid.


----------



## treyvion

Roller said:


> Thanks! Erm, not too often, but then I don't "look" for it - I don't really go out and when I do, I feel I have to account for every conversation and moment of my time when questioned when I get home.
> 
> I feel that I cannot trust anyone - that everyone is looking-out for her interests. I believe that is another scar of abuse - the paranoia.
> 
> All that said, I'm confident that I get the occasional "interest".


Most people probably ARE looking only for her interests. In your matrix she's working the charm linkeage and likeability, they will allow how to do some real bad things to you, and you can't really do anything about it.

What you can do is leave and don't complain about it, get on with your life and never let a woman put you into this position again.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Chaparral said:


> Can a person develope narcissisim later in life? Is this what's really the problem? I was under the impression it started as a child.


its probably been there the whole time, the honeymoon phase was clouding part of it in the beginning...


----------



## Chaparral

What was her childhood like?


----------



## PBear

Chaparral said:


> What was her childhood like?


Conran? Is that you?



C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Machiavelli

Roller said:


> Thanks! Erm, not too often, but then I don't "look" for it - I don't really go out and when I do, I feel I have to account for every conversation and moment of my time when questioned when I get home.
> 
> I feel that I cannot trust anyone - that everyone is looking-out for her interests. I believe that is another scar of abuse - the paranoia.
> 
> All that said, I'm confident that I get the occasional "interest".


Roller, if you want to keep her, you have to behave in a completely counter-intuitive manner. You have to start working out with weights 3X a week and reshaping your physique. Get your waist size down to 32". This is easily done by a variety of methods. Pick one and get to work. I like HIT/Nautilus, some guys like Cultfit or P90X. It doesn't matter, 90% is the diet anyway. 

You need to get your Testosterone levels checked. I guarantee your level is probably average for a 7 year old girl. You're way too worried about your wife's opinion. You need to start setting your own agenda. Change your hair, grow some facial hair, and get a whole new wardrobe. Start going out. It's time for you to see what's out there.

When you start making these changes and telegraphing that you understand there are lots of fish in the sea (better fish) this will increase your attractiveness to your wife. Start conforming to a stereotypical 1490's male attitude and watch your sex rank rise!

Your wife is not sexually attracted to you and your behavior gives her the impression that no other woman is attracted to you either. Once she sees some raw old school masculinity emanating from you, this perception will change. I know you don't want to be guy that women are attracted to, but you need to do it anyway.


----------



## Dyokemm

"In all honesty, I just wish she's make it easy for me - have a full affair or leave me. I'm really struggling to be the one to leave."

Roller,

I think you can safely put this doubt to rest.

She has admitted going back to some POS's place to 'kiss'.

If you think that is all that went on then you are seriously in denial and refusing to admit the truth cause it would force you to make a choice and take action.

These are adults not teenagers...there is no doubt POS would have pushed for everything, and no reason to believe that your WW, as you have described her, would have not followed through.

In other words, she has already had a full blown A.

Now, you have to decide what you are going to fo about it.


----------



## Chaparral

We have heard the line about getting caught at another mans house so many times its unbelievable. So far everyone was there getting laid. If not sooner then later. Not discounting what the text/email said, but that could have been disinformation.

Check out you favorite electronics stor for a sony voice activated recorder for making memos. Get a couple, they're about $50 US, and put lithium batteries in them. Velcro one under the front seat of her car. Leave one in the house where she is likely to be on the phone when you're gone. It shouldn't take more than a day or two to find out what is really going on.

Dittoes on working out and going to the gym. The hormone release is worth the trip. It will do wonders mentally and physically.


----------



## Chaparral

Btw, does she leave her phone lying around or does she keep it attached to her?


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

Chaparral said:


> We have heard the line about getting caught at another mans house so many times its unbelievable. So far everyone was there getting laid. If not sooner then later. Not discounting what the text/email said, but that could have been disinformation.
> 
> Check out you favorite electronics stor for a sony voice activated recorder for making memos. Get a couple, they're about $50 US, and put lithium batteries in them. Velcro one under the front seat of her car. Leave one in the house where she is likely to be on the phone when you're gone. It shouldn't take more than a day or two to find out what is really going on.
> 
> Dittoes on working out and going to the gym. The hormone release is worth the trip. It will do wonders mentally and physically.


:iagree:

Sony ICD-PX333

You can get it at Best Buy or even Walmart for $50 or so. It is _usually_ one of the fastest ways to get irrefutable evidence.


----------



## Roller

Chaparral said:


> What was her childhood like?


Very un-loving family, apparently an occasionally-abusive (physically, not sexually) father. She certainly felt unloved and unwanted.

It does explain her need to be center-of-attention in everything.


----------



## Roller

Machiavelli said:


> Roller, if you want to keep her, you have to behave in a completely counter-intuitive manner. You have to start working out with weights 3X a week and reshaping your physique. Get your waist size down to 32". This is easily done by a variety of methods. Pick one and get to work. I like HIT/Nautilus, some guys like Cultfit or P90X. It doesn't matter, 90% is the diet anyway.
> 
> You need to get your Testosterone levels checked. I guarantee your level is probably average for a 7 year old girl. You're way too worried about your wife's opinion. You need to start setting your own agenda. Change your hair, grow some facial hair, and get a whole new wardrobe. Start going out. It's time for you to see what's out there.
> 
> When you start making these changes and telegraphing that you understand there are lots of fish in the sea (better fish) this will increase your attractiveness to your wife. Start conforming to a stereotypical 1490's male attitude and watch your sex rank rise!
> 
> Your wife is not sexually attracted to you and your behavior gives her the impression that no other woman is attracted to you either. Once she sees some raw old school masculinity emanating from you, this perception will change. I know you don't want to be guy that women are attracted to, but you need to do it anyway.


You are correct, I don't WANT to change. I'm happy that I'm a good guy and don't want to be a bas*ard just to make her (or any one else) happy. In a way, it feels like I'm losing yet again by having to change me from someone I quite like.

But, you are correct. I have to change, but hell am I doing it for her!! I'll do it for me.


----------



## Roller

Chaparral said:


> Btw, does she leave her phone lying around or does she keep it attached to her?


VERY (like surgically) attached to her!


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

Roller said:


> VERY (like surgically) attached to her!


Bad sign. 

Pick it up and say:

"Give me the password to unlock this now or we file for divorce."

Something- ANYTHING- that shows you have some cahones with her...


----------



## Mostlycontent

Roller said:


> You are correct, I don't WANT to change. I'm happy that I'm a good guy and don't want to be a bas*ard just to make her (or any one else) happy. In a way, it feels like I'm losing yet again by having to change me from someone I quite like.
> 
> But, you are correct. I have to change, but hell am I doing it for her!! I'll do it for me.



I think you're misunderstanding what Mach is saying. You are a good guy who can still be a good guy but make some changes to increase your sex appeal. I don't think that that suddenly changes your character.

So you be a good guy that has a better physique, a new attitude and more confidence. How is that a bad thing?

Clearly, just being a good guy isn't enough for your wife right now. If she's wanting to be "pretend" 25 again, then you looking closer to that age can only help in reeling her back in, assuming you still want that.

I've always been a "what's good for the goose, is good for the gander" kind of guy. When my own wife rediscovered her freedom and confidence (once the kids got older) and wanted to start going out more frequently with her girlfriends again in her early 40s, I did likewise. 

I really didn't have much of a desire to do that any longer as I was a hard partier in my younger years and had pretty much gotten all of it out of my system. But, I started going out again with my friends anyway for the sole purpose of making a point. I wasn't terribly concerned that my W would cheat necessarily but I didn't like her getting a lot of attention from other men, which she always has, and I didn't see any purpose in putting one's self in tempting situations.

So, she began to worry about me and where I was going and what I might be up to and that changed her perspective completely. After about 6 months of doing this, she decided that she only wanted to go out with me and not her friends any more. Problem solved.

I would guess that this is probably just a phase but don't let her be married to you and play "pretend" single. That's never okay.


----------



## Chaparral

Roller said:


> You are correct, I don't WANT to change. I'm happy that I'm a good guy and don't want to be a bas*ard just to make her (or any one else) happy. In a way, it feels like I'm losing yet again by having to change me from someone I quite like.
> 
> But, you are correct. I have to change, but hell am I doing it for her!! I'll do it for me.


Being a good man and being attractive is not mutually exclusive at all. The 180 is the opposite of being a bastard. Its all about being strong and manly.

Idk why people get this wrong so often. By the way, if you read mmslp and follow the map, the last thing you will regret is the change you make. I have yet to see a man regret standing up for himself and children and wish they had remained a dooormat.

Know this, most men that come here, listen to the consensus advice, end up very happy with their wives OR their new wives. If you look at the older threads here you will see this.

Many reconcile, most don't because infidelity is often something they can't get over. It still shocks me how many find a better mate and fairky quickly once they let go.


----------



## Chaparral

Roller said:


> VERY (like surgically) attached to her!


This is the biggest red flag of all. She is scared to death she will get a text or call and you will see what she is doing.

As mentioned by Gus, get the wondershare program. I believe its good for iphone and has an edition for android too. After a var it has given more satisfaction than any other investigative tool. Of course if you can afford it, a private investigator can get you better info and info that can be used in court re custody.

From the red flags you have posted, the chances she is not having sex with these guys and maybe girls is nearly nonexistant.

If you find yourself faltering, remember you are the leader of your family and you have boys to think of first in the situation. Your wife has tuned on you.


----------



## Roller

Blossom Leigh said:


> its probably been there the whole time, the honeymoon phase was clouding part of it in the beginning...


I agree, loved-up teens, honeymoon and kids mask all of that, but once she felt "free" again (after kids are old enough to take care of themselves), it was VERY clear!


----------



## GusPolinski

Roller, would being able to show proof of adultery help you at all with any of the following in a divorce...?

* Eliminating or limiting court-mandated alimony / spousal support
* Ensuring that a greater portion of any marital assets are awarded to you
* Ensuring that (at least) 50/50 custody of any minor children is awarded to you

If you're not sure, start talking w/ lawyers...

Anyway, if the answer turns out to be no, you should probably just go ahead and file for divorce.


----------



## Machiavelli

Roller said:


> You are correct, I don't WANT to change. I'm happy that I'm a good guy and don't want to be a bas*ard just to make her (or any one else) happy. In a way, it feels like I'm losing yet again by having to change me from someone I quite like.
> 
> But, you are correct. I have to change, but hell am I doing it for her!! I'll do it for me.


That's the way to think: you're doing it for you. Plus, you don't stop being a decent person; you don't actually have to become a dark triad man, you just learn to ape the traits to turn yourself into a chick magnet.

There are very basic triggers that trip female attraction, V-torso, power stances, space hogging, confident carriage, an air of mystery, aloofness. You need to make these things second nature. Google "the sixteen commandments." These concepts will be foreign to you, since you were raised in the era of the "I'm okay, you're okay" matriarchy, where men are taught to be transparent, sensitive, weepy types.

Women will say this is manipulation, while pulling down the pants of biggest manipulator in their line of sight. It is no more manipulation than feeding your dog meat. It's what they need to be happy. Just because you feed your dog meat from time to time, doesn't make you a bad person.


----------



## Machiavelli

GusPolinski said:


> Roller, would being able to show proof of adultery help you at all with any of the following in a divorce...?
> 
> * Eliminating or limiting court-mandated alimony / spousal support
> * Ensuring that a greater portion of any marital assets are awarded to you
> * Ensuring that (at least) 50/50 custody of any minor children is awarded to you
> 
> If you're not sure, start talking w/ lawyers...
> 
> Anyway, if the answer turns out to be no, you should probably just go ahead and file for divorce.


Roller is in Limeyland. I think if a wife commits adultery in England and it's proved in court, then the wife gets everything and the BH is press ganged into the Royal Navy.


----------



## bandit.45

I'm making myself a new rule. 

When I find out a posting BS is a Brit male, I am exiting the the thread post- haste. I couldn't read through all of this thread. I literally feel like vomiting. 

WTF is with the women in that country? I mean holy sh!t....


----------



## Machiavelli

bandit.45 said:


> WTF is with the women in that country? I mean holy sh!t....


Just for you, Bandit:

The Extraordinary Late Night World of Drunk British Women


----------



## bandit.45

Machiavelli said:


> Just for you, Bandit:
> 
> The Extraordinary Late Night World of Drunk British Women


Im actually an Anglophile. I like the Brits a lot. I'm not wanting to cast aspersions but this is just one more example of the wanton behavior of what seems to be a large portion of British women. I mean, fvck me....American women can act just as whorish, but at least they seem to have some conscience. 

I better shut the fvck up and leave before I start a fight.


----------



## GusPolinski

Machiavelli said:


> Roller is in Limeyland. I think if a wife commits adultery in England and it's proved in court, then the wife gets everything and the BH is press ganged into the Royal Navy.


OK, that literally made me laugh out loud. :lol: :rofl:


----------



## BradWesley

Machiavelli said:


> Just for you, Bandit:
> 
> The Extraordinary Late Night World of Drunk British Women


It appears that to be a British party girl, it seems to help if you are obese.


----------



## Q tip

Machiavelli said:


> Just for you, Bandit:
> 
> The Extraordinary Late Night World of Drunk British Women


Midgets, I knew midgets would come up... 
(one of the pics)

:lol:


----------



## Forest

BradWesley said:


> It appears that to be a British party girl, it seems to help if you are obese.


Holy cow. It seems as bad there as in the US.

I went to Italy in 2005. What a blessing the women there were to see.


----------



## bandit.45

Forest said:


> Holy cow. It seems as bad there as in the US.
> 
> I went to Italy in 2005. What a blessing the women there were to see.


I enjoy going to WalMart jet to look at some of the women in there. I like the 450 pound juggernauts with five snotty, dirty kids hanging off them...and the kids are obviously all from different dads.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Q tip

bandit.45 said:


> I enjoy going to WalMart jet to look at some of the women in there. I like the 450 pound juggernauts with five snotty, dirty kids hanging off them...and the kids are obviously all from different dads.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or drive 5 miles and behold all the magic that silicone can bring...


----------



## Dollystanford

Well isn't this charming


----------



## bandit.45

Q tip said:


> Midgets, I knew midgets would come up...
> (one of the pics)
> 
> :lol:


Little people rock.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Is it cheating*



Dollystanford said:


> Well isn't this charming


Please confirm, all of England is just like the people in those pics, is it not?


----------



## turnera

Roller said:


> If I could grow a pair I'd leave, but I'm struggling so, so much to decide whether that is the right thing for everyone. I've given my life to this person, I love her so, so much and somewhere in my mind I believe that she will one day wake-up to herself and change.
> 
> I wish I could put ME first, but I cannot. Someone said cuckold - possibly that's correct - but not by choice.


It IS by choice. You have all KINDS of choices.

Yours is to be a cuckold.

Which, btw, is EXTREMELY UNATTRACTIVE to women.


----------



## turnera

Roller said:


> I'm a door mat who wishes to grow a pair


Great! Then you should have ordered MMSLP and NMMNG by now and started reading them.

Right?


----------



## turnera

roller, what has your lawyer told you about custody? In the U.S., once a kid hits around age 12, he/she is allowed to tell the judge which parent he/she wants to live with and the judge will usually grant that wish. What does your lawyer say about it? (and don't tell me what you think you know; tell me what your LEGAL PROFESSIONAL has told you)


----------



## sidney2718

bandit.45 said:


> Im actually an Anglophile. I like the Brits a lot. I'm not wanting to cast aspersions but this is just one more example of the wanton behavior of what seems to be a large portion of British women. I mean, fvck me....American women can act just as whorish, but at least they seem to have some conscience.
> 
> I better shut the fvck up and leave before I start a fight.


Nah, you're safe. I haven't found this thread yet.


----------



## MattMatt

Machiavelli said:


> Just for you, Bandit:
> 
> The Extraordinary Late Night World of Drunk British Women


That is exactly why I would never, ever go to Blackpool. *Ever.*


----------



## MattMatt

Lon said:


> Please confirm, all of England is just like the people in those pics, is it not?


That was Blackpool.

It used to be a great seaside destination, until it wasn't.


----------



## MattMatt

BradWesley said:


> It appears that to be a British party girl, it seems to help if you are obese.


Not obese, just a bit chunky!


----------



## Forest

Lon said:


> Please confirm, all of England is just like the people in those pics, is it not?


NO. There is a secret place where the people from Doc Martin and all those BBC period dramas reside. 

It is tightly controlled to keep out American food and TV, and I don't blame them.


----------



## bandit.45

Forest said:


> NO. There is a secret place where the people from Doc Martin and all those BBC period dramas reside.
> 
> It is tightly controlled to keep out American food and TV, and I don't blame them.


I don't either. I like those British crime dramas.


----------



## BradWesley

MattMatt said:


> Not obese, just a bit chunky!


Matt

You would make one helluva politician - LOL


----------



## bandit.45

Lon said:


> Please confirm, all of England is just like the people in those pics, is it not?


Dolly isn't. She's hot.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Is it cheating*



bandit.45 said:


> Dolly isn't. She's hot.


Maybe Dolly is the one behind the lens?


----------



## MattMatt

BradWesley said:


> Matt
> 
> You would make one helluva politician - LOL


Did I tell you I used to work in PR?

(Actually, that's not a joke, I worked as a freelance public relations consultant for several years.)


----------



## Roller

GusPolinski said:


> Roller, would being able to show proof of adultery help you at all with any of the following in a divorce...?
> 
> * Eliminating or limiting court-mandated alimony / spousal support
> * Ensuring that a greater portion of any marital assets are awarded to you
> * Ensuring that (at least) 50/50 custody of any minor children is awarded to you
> 
> If you're not sure, start talking w/ lawyers...
> 
> Anyway, if the answer turns out to be no, you should probably just go ahead and file for divorce.


Sorry for delay - awkward to get discrete time to respond on weekends.

Yes, in theory getting proof (even in the UK and it's female-friendly courts) would help for those things.


----------



## Roller

bandit.45 said:


> I'm making myself a new rule.
> 
> When I find out a posting BS is a Brit male, I am exiting the the thread post- haste. I couldn't read through all of this thread. I literally feel like vomiting.
> 
> WTF is with the women in that country? I mean holy sh!t....


I agree, it drives me crazy! I think Gus called it Faux Feministic BS in a previous post, and he's right. If you are a guy in this country, by default it's your fault!


----------



## Roller

turnera said:


> Great! Then you should have ordered MMSLP and NMMNG by now and started reading them.
> 
> Right?


On order


----------



## Roller

turnera said:


> roller, what has your lawyer told you about custody? In the U.S., once a kid hits around age 12, he/she is allowed to tell the judge which parent he/she wants to live with and the judge will usually grant that wish. What does your lawyer say about it? (and don't tell me what you think you know; tell me what your LEGAL PROFESSIONAL has told you)


Then I cannot answer you because I haven't asked one. I will however check this out and come back to you.


----------



## turnera

Good. You're talking about your future; it's worth a small fee to find out your rights.


----------



## FromEurope

I dont understand where you are headed.... r or d?


----------



## Roller

FromEurope said:


> I dont understand where you are headed.... r or d?


Neither do I if I'm honest. My original question was whether what she was doing should be considered cheating. It would appear that most people think that it should.

I appreciate that I now need to make a decision based on that. My problem is that I'm going to struggle to make that decision. My plant at this point, is to give myself some time without pressure to make that decision. If I gather more evidence in the meantime, then maybe it makes the decision easier.


----------



## azteca1986

Roller said:


> Neither do I if I'm honest. My original question was whether what she was doing should be considered cheating. It would appear that most people think that it should.
> 
> I appreciate that I now need to make a decision based on that. My problem is that I'm going to struggle to make that decision. My plant at this point, is to give myself some time without pressure to make that decision. If I gather more evidence in the meantime, then maybe it makes the decision easier.


Stop vacillating. You don't need anymore evidence. She's cheating. Find out where you stand legally. Your wife's acceptance of the admiration of other men has knocked your confidence. Of course it has. But you weren't always like this. You were once the man that got her to commit to you. 

Sadly, today, she's not the woman you once married. Close proximity to her cheating and the inability to say "Stop, or else" has shredded your confidence further. But you can be the man you once were again. In fact even better.

The first step is to think, to know, that you're not standing for her bulls!t anymore. Then go see a lawyer.


----------



## happyman64

> If the sexting/flirting/partying/kissing/etc is "cheating" and general the respondents seem to agree that it is, then it's "cheating" and the gory details don't really matter.......but if I caught her physically doing something (rather than "virtual" - phone/computer/etc) I THINK I'd find walking away easier.


In reality haven't you caught her? You know she was at the OM's place alone with him.

You keep saying you cannot leave your family Roller. I understand that. Don't leave them. Have her leave.

But if I had your resources I would do the following:

Speak to an attorney and have S or D papers drawn up.

Hire a PI when you know she has a hen night where this OM will be with her.

Have the PI record and notify you when she is there.

Give them an hour.

Pack up a large bag of her clothes in a black garbage bag.

Drop them off to her and the OM. Tell the OM he is welcome to her and ask him if he wants the kids dropped off as well.

Tell your wife she is no longer welcome home and she better find a job. Hand her the legal papers.

Make sure the PI records this.

Now is any of this legal? No.

Will your wife be shocked? Yes.

Tell your wife you are sending the video of the confrontation to all of her friends and family.

Tell her You are tired of being disrespected. That you would rather divorce her than be humiliated on a daily basis.


God gave us men balls for a reason roller. To use them.

Please use yours.

You need to shock your wife. And when you drop off the clothes please hand her the computer. Let the OM man he is just one of many single users she strings along.

No she can do it on his dime.

Shock and Awe my friend.

HM


----------



## Chaparral

Have your doctor check your testosterone levels. Things are going on to kill these levels and from what I read here and you are doing nothing to raise them. You're being weak and compacent, i.e. letting people walk all over you and your kids.


----------



## anchorwatch

anchorwatch said:


> Roller,
> 
> Just to repeat myself, you can read these links today...
> 
> Here is some reading that might help you, Read it, mull it over, make a choice, make a plan. Change can happen, you just need to take the first steps towards it.
> 
> 180 List
> 
> No More Mr Nice Guy, R Glover
> 
> Best


----------



## bandit.45

Roller said:


> Neither do I if I'm honest. My original question was whether what she was doing should be considered cheating. It would appear that most people think that it should.


See, Roller this is why so many are frustrated with you...

What was it about your upbringing and the values taught to you by your culture or your Family Of Origin (FOO) that would make you think any of her aberrant behaviors are somehow normal or acceptable? I don't get how you could be that naive. 

So if you need it spelled out then we will have to take you back to Relationships 101 and teach you the basics about what exactly is cheating....


1). If she spends five times the amount of time texting other men than she does talking to you, it's cheating.

2). If she brazenly and openly flirts with other men in front of you, in a social setting...that's cheating.

3). If she goes on weekly GNOs where she gets drunk and flirts and acts inappropriately with strange men...that's cheating.

4). If she sexts with another man or men, that's cheating. 

5). If she sends nude or erotic pictures of herself to another man or men...that is cheating.

6). If she tells another man things that she should be only confiding in with you...that is cheating.

7). If she has sexual intercourse with another man, that is cheating. 

8). If she performs oral or manual sex on another man or men, that is cheating.

9). If she talks negatively about you to another man, or shares personal details about your marriage and relationship to another man, that is cheating. 

10). If she spends your combined income on her forays with other men or with the OM, this is cheating. 

The list goes on and on. Anyone want to add to this?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Because he was conditioned to accept aberrant as normal.

This level of abuse survivor is no different than the dog whose original owner chose to have their voice box removed surgically. 

not by choice

and over a long period of time.

its going to take him time to learn how to speak inspite of it and WHEN to speak


----------



## Roller

Blossom Leigh said:


> Because he was conditioned to accept aberrant as normal.
> 
> This level of abuse survivor is no different than the dog whose original owner chose to have their voice box removed surgically.
> 
> not by choice
> 
> and over a long period of time.
> 
> its going to take him time to learn how to speak inspite of it and WHEN to speak


:iagree:

Please do not think that I'm ungrateful for all the comments, recommendations, suggestions and support you guys have provided. I'm truly humbled that such strong people have taken it upon themselves to try and help me.

As Blossom has identified, my rather "frustrating" situation is that as well as having what would appear to be a cheating wife (although the differences in English and American Women's interpretation of conscious as, somewhat comically, identified by others in this thread, means that I'm still not sure it absolutely, 100% undeniable ticks that box), I'm so conditioned to being "wrong" that it makes it very hard to act.

I'm not a dumb guy, professionally I'm relatively successful and I've done a lot of research on both the state of our relationship and on my own mental health. To say "I don't get it" would be a lie, I do understand what's going on in my head, but actually managing to put myself first and do something about it, is unbelievably difficult.

I've lived my life for this woman, in fact I'd say that I've lived through her. In hindsight, I see how stupid and dangerous this is, but I cannot change that. I do next-to-nothing for myself, I do everything either for the boys, for her or for someone else.

When you add the fact that she is Narcissistic and (almost therefore by definition) emotionally abusive in to the mix, it may give you an idea of how hard the whole situation is.

I agree entirely that the answer is to "grow a pair" and either give her "a dose of her own medicine, then leave" or "just leave". I genuinely appreciate that...........however it's proving very difficult to do.

Again, I appreciate what you guys are doing for me. I promise you that it is getting through and I'm stronger today than yesterday.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Roller, I'm going to ask you a question and I want you to explain in detail how you would react...

Picture yourself standing in a barn aisle... there is a horse tied by his halter to the a stall, but was left on a long lead line so he has quite a bit of room to move around. You are standing there talking to a friend and this horse walks toward you fast, putting his shoulder into yours and his head up over yours... what do you do?


----------



## 2asdf2

Roller said:


> -------snip for brevity----------------
> 
> I agree entirely that the answer is to "grow a pair" and either give her "a dose of her own medicine, then leave" or "just leave". I genuinely appreciate that...........however it's proving very difficult to do.
> 
> Again, I appreciate what you guys are doing for me. I promise you that it is getting through and I'm stronger today than yesterday.


Just don't wait until you've been married 47 years, like I did.


----------



## Roller

Blossom Leigh said:


> Roller, I'm going to ask you a question and I want you to explain in detail how you would react...
> 
> Picture yourself standing in a barn aisle... there is a horse tied by his halter to the a stall, but was left on a long lead line so he has quite a bit of room to move around. You are standing there talking to a friend and this horse walks toward you fast, putting his shoulder into yours and his head up over yours... what do you do?


I'm not too sure if I'm honest. Animals by-enlarge don't scare me, and whilst I appreciate you'll be using it as a metaphor, I'm trying not to read into what you want me to say, so I want to answer as accurately and honestly as possible.

In all probability, I'd want to show it who's boss - that's what I'm like with animals. I know that showing a level of being scared only empowers the animal, so I'd either stand my ground or, if at all possible, gain some ground.

I guess I can already see what you are trying to tell me.....!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Roller said:


> I'm not too sure if I'm honest. Animals by-enlarge don't scare me, and whilst I appreciate you'll be using it as a metaphor, I'm trying not to read into what you want me to say, so I want to answer as accurately and honestly as possible.
> 
> In all probability, I'd want to show it who's boss - that's what I'm like with animals. I know that showing a level of being scared only empowers the animal, so I'd either stand my ground or, if at all possible, gain some ground.
> 
> I guess I can already see what you are trying to tell me.....!


How would you stand your ground...


----------



## azteca1986

Roller said:


> Again, I appreciate what you guys are doing for me. I promise you that it is getting through and I'm stronger today than yesterday.


That's all anyone of us can ask.


----------



## Roller

Blossom Leigh said:


> How would you stand your ground...


Look it in the eye and push it away, or grab it's lead and try to lead it back to where it was/should be.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Roller said:


> Look it in the eye and push it away, or grab it's lead and try to lead it back to where it was/should be.


he's 1500#'s and his head is up over yours....

and lets just say for argument sake, there is no lead rope

he is totally in your grill and is aiming to pin you to the wall

where some people have died by the way,...

go..


----------



## Roller

azteca1986 said:


> That's all anyone of us can ask.


Thanks, if you don't mind my asking I'd be interested to hear your view on the difference in women's attitude in UK versus USA? 

Maybe this is one for a separate thread? But based on what I've heard on this forum so far, and on my own experience I suppose (although that could be grass is always greener), I think that UK women seem to think they have more right to be disrespectful of their spouses than American.

In my case, most of my wife's friends seem to think she's doing nothing wrong. That's not just her closest friends, but new friends that come along as well as the women in relationships with my friends. In other words, I'm made out to be over-protective if I ask what went on during a night out, but every guy I speak to seems to confirm that his wife always asks!

So would you agree that frequently UK women insist on making sure their husbands appreciate where the "line" is only so that they can party on the other side of it?!


----------



## Roller

Blossom Leigh said:


> he's 1500#'s and his head is up over yours....
> 
> and lets just say for argument sake, there is no lead rope
> 
> he is totally in your grill and is aiming to pin you to the wall
> 
> where some people have died by the way,...
> 
> go..


Erm.....in that situation it's fight or flight isn't it.....again I guess I can see what you want me to say!

I hate feeling that an animal could scare me (even though we all know that they do), so for my pride, I'd probably fight........but only until I'd gain enough space and time to get away from it if it didn't back-down.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

why do you hate that feeling


----------



## Roller

Blossom Leigh said:


> why do you hate that feeling


Because, I suppose, that I'm a big guy who shouldn't be afraid. I'm a guy who understands wildlife and, in a situation such as that, I'd expect myself to be able to handle it. Also, I'd think that my friends would expect me to be able to handle it.


----------



## Chaparral

You don't need to catch her in bed with someone.
She's not worthy enough to be your wife. She is an abuser


----------



## ButtPunch

Roller said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I've lived my life for this woman, in fact I'd say that I've lived through her.


Huge mistake. You will always find it hard to keep a woman. Every time I see this statement it reeks of codependency.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Interesting answers and I noticed you mentioning "what you want me to say" a couple of times which is pretty revealing. I can also see you are trying to break yourself of that pattern. GOOD!

Ok... now I want you to imagine that you are seasoned enough in "reading" the intent of that horse before he ever gets within striking distance of you and enough respect has been built that he never gets the chance to get his shoulder into you nor his head over yours where he could kill you with one strike of his head or his front feet... that you gain enough skill that when you notice the intent from 25 feet away that you can toss a mindset of "don't even try it" in his direction, with a look in the eye and a strategic point of the finger and he stays put. THAT is where you want to be with humans... "know what happens before what happens happens" is GOLDEN in preventing escalated events. 

And yes, it sounds like there might be a difference between US and UK women, but I think a lot of it also depends on the circles people run in regardless of geography.


----------



## Roller

Chaparral said:


> She is an abuser


Yes, but the effect of that abuse is that it's taking me a frustratingly long time to have the ba*ls to walk away.

As I mentioned, I understand the situation, but like Blossom has said previously, it's like I can see that my office is on fire, I know it's going to burn me, but all I can do is look at it and feel nothing, or if not nothing then just hope that someone else will come and deal with it.

I ABSOLUTELY understand how stupid all of this sounds. I ABSOLUTELY understand how it makes me sound cuckold, weak, beta (or lower down the alphabet as someone said).


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ButtPunch said:


> Huge mistake. You will always find it hard to keep a woman. Every time I see this statement it reeks of codependency.


it was a predictable progression given his childhood.


----------



## Roller

Blossom Leigh said:


> Interesting answers and I noticed you mentioning "what you want me to say" a couple of times which is pretty revealing. I can also see you are trying to break yourself of that pattern. GOOD!
> 
> Ok... now I want you to imagine that you are seasoned enough in "reading" the intent of that horse before he ever gets within striking distance of you and enough respect has been built that he never gets the chance to get his shoulder into you nor his head over yours where he could kill you with one strike of his head or his front feet... that you gain enough skill that when you notice the intent from 25 feet away that you can toss a mindset of "don't even try it" in his direction, with a look in the eye and a strategic point of the finger and he stays put. THAT is where you want to be with humans... "know what happens before what happens happens" is GOLDEN in preventing escalated events.
> 
> And yes, it sounds like there might be a difference between US and UK women, but I think a lot of it also depends on the circles people run in regardless of geography.


Thank you - I understand what you're saying.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Roller said:


> Thank you - I understand what you're saying.


Hey and the day you realize you have "arrived" at that ability... you are going to feel like a million bucks!!!!


----------



## turnera

A really good way to start learning to have a pair is to practice walking away. You know when she's being rude, dismissive, or mean. The next time she does it, just turn around and walk away. If she demands a reason just say "I don't deserve to be talked to that way." Nothing more. It's a small thing, but it will do wonders for your self esteem. And it will teach you that you have power you didn't realize.


----------



## Roller

turnera said:


> A really good way to start learning to have a pair is to practice walking away. You know when she's being rude, dismissive, or mean. The next time she does it, just turn around and walk away. If she demands a reason just say "I don't deserve to be talked to that way." Nothing more. It's a small thing, but it will do wonders for your self esteem. And it will teach you that you have power you didn't realize.


I'm glad you said that because it is something that I've started to do recently. I figured one day that the only way to get through to people like her is to let them fight themselves. When you fight back the abuser has someone to fight with (and obviously abuse), when you walk away they seem to turn that fight/abuse inward and it actually (sometimes) seems to hurt them.

It is a win-win.


----------



## turnera

Not only that, but it forces her to respect you just a little bit more.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Something that really worked well for me and caused a notable shift in respect of me is when I chose to no longer tolerate phone harassment. H was blowing up my phone one day because I was refusing to discuss things in his state of mind (abusive) and so I decided to deal with it VERY directly. I picked up this phone he had been ringing off the hook repeatedly and said....

"As of right now, you are by legal definition harassing me, and that is NOT OK, therefore I am asking you to stop. I have told you I will speak to this issue when you are in a better frame of mind, until then, do not ring my phone, I am hanging up now." click...

silent phone


----------



## turnera

And, the other great way to use a phone is, when they do harass you via phone, just hang up. They'll get the message real quick.


----------



## bandit.45

Don't worry about what her friends think. 

Don't worry about what she thinks. 

Roller, sit down with a pen and a piece of paper and write a 100 item list of what you as Roller, as a man and human being, want in a partner. List what you want in a woman. What attributes do you desire....list them one by one. 

(Respects my feelings...doesn't talk down to me...shares my pain...loves to take care of me physically...debates me calmly instead of going berserk if I don't agree with her....and on, and on...)

Then, when you have written 100, set the list down and leave it for a day. Go do something else. 

Come back the next day and check off each item on that list that your wife DOES display or pass on. 

If your wife is not meeting at least 50 of those those items...then I would say you are dead in the water. I would venture to guess your wife doesn't match 20 items you list.

Why do this? Because it will start to force you to go from "subjective" mentality mode to "objective" mentality mode.


----------



## Chaparral

Are you getting therapy and help for this. It seems unreal but from what I read there is almost as many women abusing their spouse as there are men abusing their wives.


----------



## Roller

bandit.45 said:


> Don't worry about what her friends think.
> 
> Don't worry about what she thinks.
> 
> Roller, sit down with a pen and a piece of paper and write a 100 item list of what you as Roller, as a man and human being, want in a partner. List what you want in a woman. What attributes do you desire....list them one by one.
> 
> (Respects my feelings...doesn't talk down to me...shares my pain...loves to take care of me physically...debates me calmly instead of going berserk if I don't agree with her....and on, and on...)
> 
> Then, when you have written 100, set the list down and leave it for a day. Go do something else.
> 
> Come back the next day and check off each item on that list that your wife DOES display or pass on.
> 
> If your wife is not meeting at least 50 of those those items...then I would say you are dead in the water. I would venture to guess your wife doesn't match 20 items you list.
> 
> Why do this? Because it will start to force you to go from "subjective" mentality mode to "objective" mentality mode.


Great idea, will do.


----------



## Roller

Chaparral said:


> Are you getting therapy and help for this. It seems unreal but from what I read there is almost as many women abusing their spouse as there are men abusing their wives.


Yes i'm seeing a counselor who is helping me. I agree, the amount of men being emotionally and verbally abused is far, far higher than people think imho


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Chaparral said:


> Are you getting therapy and help for this. It seems unreal but from what I read there is almost as many women abusing their spouse as there are men abusing their wives.


I think there are, it just has a very distinct flavor to it.


----------



## Chaparral

Since you aren't in physical danger, when she starts acting up, pull your phone out and record her. Then back it up off site. She will have to behave or give you evidence against her. Be carefule what you say to her at all times. She may try to bait you and record it.
A camera security system in th house could capture everything including her interactions with your kids.


----------



## azteca1986

Roller said:


> Thanks, if you don't mind my asking I'd be interested to hear your view on the difference in women's attitude in UK versus USA?
> 
> Maybe this is one for a separate thread?


It's your thread. Use it however helps you, mate. 



> But based on what I've heard on this forum so far, and on my own experience I suppose (although that could be grass is always greener), I think that UK women seem to think they have more right to be disrespectful of their spouses than American.


Honestly, I don't see it, but that might be because I'm in the midst of it. We do have a very unhealthy attitude to drinking. In the UK it's case of binge drinking which lessens the further south in Europe you go. If you want to see the worst of the Brits you only need to see our young men and women when they jet off to Magaluf or some other party destination. And that drinking yourself insensible as fast as you can culture pervades all levels off society. Lots more bad, selfish decisions get made that way, perhaps?



> In my case, most of my wife's friends seem to think she's doing nothing wrong. That's not just her closest friends, but new friends that come along as well as the women in relationships with my friends. In other words, I'm made out to be over-protective if I ask what went on during a night out, but every guy I speak to seems to confirm that his wife always asks!


We coalesce toward like minded people over time. Putting this as delicately as I can I don't think my circle of friends would consider a married woman kissing other men in their presence "a bit of harmless fun". I'd like to think the sisterhood would go out the window and a woman who behaved like that would be thought a "plague carrier" and dropped. You mentioned your wife is narcissistic, more self-centred than the norm, so it might be she's gathered about her people who think like her?



> So would you agree that frequently UK women insist on making sure their husbands appreciate where the "line" is only so that they can party on the other side of it?!


Not in my experience. I spent a decade working in Asia and missed out on the indoctrination that it's a thoroughly good thing to be a sensitive husband. I'm not saying I'm not caring, thoughtful, and empathetic, but I'm not to be fvcked with either. You gotta get the balance right.


----------



## azteca1986

Roller said:


> Yes, but the effect of that abuse is that it's taking me a frustratingly long time to have the ba*ls to walk away.
> 
> As I mentioned, I understand the situation, but like Blossom has said previously, it's like I can see that my office is on fire, I know it's going to burn me, but all I can do is look at it and feel nothing, or if not nothing then just hope that someone else will come and deal with it.


Years of abuse from her. Your spouse job was to build you up (and vice versa). She has you doubting yourself and every decision you make. Every relationship you have, be it with your spouse, your family, business, etc should be judged on "Do they bring out the best in me?" If they don't, get rid. For your sake.



> I ABSOLUTELY understand how stupid all of this sounds. I ABSOLUTELY understand how it makes me sound cuckold, weak, beta (or lower down the alphabet as someone said).


I hate to hear a good man put himself down. You have the greatest power to effect how the world perceives you. I'll leave you with a thought. It's not profound. It's just the truth:

*No one can make you feel inferior without your consent
*


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Unless its the only normal you've ever known.... Then it is as second nature as beathing.


----------



## Dollystanford

Roller said:


> Maybe this is one for a separate thread? But based on what I've heard on this forum so far, and on my own experience I suppose (although that could be grass is always greener), I think that UK women seem to think they have more right to be disrespectful of their spouses than American.


Yo dude, could you please stop blaming the country you live in for your wife's behaviour? I'm a British woman, no I wouldn't do any of the things your wife is doing and no, what she's doing is not ok

This is not about being in the UK, this is about your wife knowing it's ok to cheat on you because you'd rather sit around trying to define her behaviour than do something about it


----------



## Roller

Dollystanford said:


> Yo dude, could you please stop blaming the country you live in for your wife's behaviour? I'm a British woman, no I wouldn't do any of the things your wife is doing and no, what she's doing is not ok
> 
> This is not about being in the UK, this is about your wife knowing it's ok to cheat on you because you'd rather sit around trying to define her behaviour than do something about it


Ouch! Just asked the question following several comments by posters previously in this thread.


----------



## Roller

For all of those who recommended one, I've ordered a VAR today.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

#1 Evidence of long term emotional abuse... SELF DOUBT

#2 Evidence of long term emotional abuse.... constantly asking WHY does my abuser behave the way they do

You are showing ALL the signs, Friend. 

I too asked "why" for a VERY long time regarding my mother. Finally I got my belly so full of it that I didnt care why anymore, I was just done tolerating it. But the one thing that propelled me in that direction was exposure to the vision healthy relationships  My vision came in THIS form... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLbmCnbpyBw

Glad you brought up him attempting to define that Dolly... it's the "why" question


----------



## happyman64

Roller said:


> Ouch! Just asked the question following several comments by posters previously in this thread.


Stop apologizing Mr Nice Guy. Stop being nice. 

By the way, Dolly is a fellow Brit that kicks butt and gives great advice.

Listen to her.


----------



## happyman64

And Roller.

Hide the VAR real well.

PM the user Weightlifter for suggestions regarding using the VAR.

He has become the resident expert as well as Gus for working magic WS's phones and PC's.



.


----------



## GusPolinski

happyman64 said:


> And Roller.
> 
> Hide the VAR real well.
> 
> PM the user Weightlifter for suggestions regarding using the VAR.
> 
> He has become the resident expert as well as Gus for working magic WS's phones and PC's.


Thanks sir.

And Roller... DEFINITELY hide that VAR well.

*cough* BillEBoy!

(Just kidding, BEB... hope you're doing well.)


----------



## MattMatt

Roller said:


> Thanks, if you don't mind my asking I'd be interested to hear your view on the difference in women's attitude in UK versus USA?
> 
> Maybe this is one for a separate thread? But based on what I've heard on this forum so far, and on my own experience I suppose (although that could be grass is always greener), I think that UK women seem to think they have more right to be disrespectful of their spouses than American.
> 
> In my case, most of my wife's friends seem to think she's doing nothing wrong. That's not just her closest friends, but new friends that come along as well as the women in relationships with my friends. In other words, I'm made out to be over-protective if I ask what went on during a night out, but every guy I speak to seems to confirm that his wife always asks!
> 
> So would you agree that frequently UK women insist on making sure their husbands appreciate where the "line" is only so that they can party on the other side of it?!


That's not normal in the UK. Any women in my circle of friends who started with that nonsense would soon be told what's what by her female friends.

However your wife has surrounded herself with enablers.

This, in my opinion, needs to be addressed.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

MattMatt said:


> That's not normal in the UK. Any women in my circle of friends who started with that nonsense would soon be told what's what by her female friends.
> 
> However your wife has surrounded herself with enablers.
> 
> This, in my opinion, needs to be addressed.


Classic narcissist move.


----------



## wamsgr

You can get the VAR and get more dirty details, but do you really need it?

You need to decide what is acceptable behavior and set some boundaries. 

Let's just say this behavior is unacceptable to you, and she is unwilling to change. If that's the case, go on offense and have her served with papers.

You have to blow this thing up and provide the shock value to show you won't stand for it any more.


----------



## happyman64

wamsgr said:


> You can get the VAR and get more dirty details, but do you really need it?
> 
> You need to decide what is acceptable behavior and set some boundaries.
> 
> Let's just say this behavior is unacceptable to you, and she is unwilling to change. If that's the case, go on offense and have her served with papers.
> 
> You have to blow this thing up and provide the shock value to show you won't stand for it any more.


But isn't it better if he uses the knowledge gained by the VAR to go on the offense with???

Many times the VAR lets the BS stay ahead of the wayward.

In fact the WS gets paranoid/freaked out when the BS starts acting like a clairvoyant knowing what lies the WS is spouting.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Roller said:


> Ouch! Just asked the question following several comments by posters previously in this thread.


It was bound to happen that you irritated someone. You subtly blame everything but your wife for these problems.


----------



## Machiavelli

Roller said:


> On order


Don't let your wife see or know you are reading these books under any circumstances. You need to make her think this stuff is coming from some primal place inside yourself. Never allude to where these behaviors changes may have come from. 

If she asks what has influenced you to change your behavior, look at her like she's got two green heads and say "I have no idea what you are talking about, I've always been this way."


----------



## Blossom Leigh

That made me giggle... "I have no idea what you're talking about."


----------



## convert

Dollystanford said:


> Yo dude, could you please stop blaming the country you live in for your wife's behaviour? I'm a British woman, no I wouldn't do any of the things your wife is doing and no, what she's doing is not ok
> 
> This is not about being in the UK, this is about your wife knowing it's ok to cheat on you because you'd rather sit around trying to define her behaviour than do something about it


:iagree:

Very true
although I like it when the brits can insult you and it still sounds like a complement.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

You mean like this one...

"Though you have a face that looks like a bulldog chewing on a wasp, you can cook like an angel" Gordon Ramsey

lol


----------



## azteca1986

Machiavelli said:


> US and UK women are the same, except for volume of alcohol consumed and the fact that not many UK women have to rationalize their religion away. On the other hand, there was a nice Presbyterian girl from Ulster who blew 30 guys in a Spanish bar this past summer.


She did get a free drink out of it though.


----------



## Roller

phillybeffandswiss said:


> It was bound to happen that you irritated someone. You subtly blame everything but your wife for these problems.


Fair enough, can't say that I've noticed me doing it, but then you are outside looking in, so obviously better placed.

It was however a genuine question about how morals, ethics, etc MAY be different and I consider the feedback useful.


----------



## Roller

happyman64 said:


> But isn't it better if he uses the knowledge gained by the VAR to go on the offense with???
> 
> Many times the VAR lets the BS stay ahead of the wayward.
> 
> In fact the WS gets paranoid/freaked out when the BS starts acting like a clairvoyant knowing what lies the WS is spouting.


From the limited exposure I've had (seeing an occasional txt and/or e-mail/fb message), I'd agree. The response is one of "how the hell did he guess at that" in her eyes, followed by what can only be described as a ingenious effort to provide a suitable reply - that or a full blown outburst!

I feel that I need evidence to strengthen my determination to not stand for it and/or to walk away. I don't need it to catch her out, I need it to convince myself that I've done everything to avoid walking away. The old self-doubt that Blossom refers to. I'm hoping that it makes sense to you?


----------



## happyman64

It makes a lot of sense.

Now go find the resolve to carry your plan forward and find some strength to be the man your family needs you to be.


----------



## Machiavelli

Roller, tell me about your work out plan.


----------



## azteca1986

Roller said:


> I feel that I need evidence to strengthen my determination to not stand for it and/or to walk away. I don't need it to catch her out, I need it to convince myself that I've done everything to avoid walking away. The old self-doubt that Blossom refers to. I'm hoping that it makes sense to you?


Doesn't need to get in the way of finding out the lay of the land from a legal stand point, does it? Divorce (if it comes to that) is a long process in the UK.



Machiavelli said:


> I guess for a Brit chick, that's fair trade.


The young men are just as bad. Do you value yourself so poorly that you'll stand in a line and wait to be no. 30?


----------



## murphy5

convert said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Very true
> although I like it when the brits can insult you and it still sounds like a complement.


it just might be the internet, but it seems like Brit women DO have a penchant for naughty dressing. Maybe its how they call their clothing "knickers". :rofl:


----------



## WorkingOnMe

murphy5 said:


> it just might be the internet, but it seems like Brit women DO have a penchant for naughty dressing. Maybe its how they call their clothing "knickers". :rofl:



Maybe it's wishful thinking or pure fantasy.


----------



## murphy5

"let me rub my hand along your naughty nickers" sounds considerably more hot!


----------



## BrockLanders

Despite being divided by a common language, I don't think there's any appreciable difference in the way that women act in general in the entire Anglosphere. 

Sorry for calling you a troll, your story sounded so out there that I didn't think such a situation was possible.


----------



## Roller

BrockLanders said:


> Despite being divided by a common language, I don't think there's any appreciable difference in the way that women act in general in the entire Anglosphere.
> 
> Sorry for calling you a troll, your story sounded so out there that I didn't think such a situation was possible.


No worries mate (that almost made me sound Australian)!!

As I've said previously I understand how strange I may sound, so I guess I can see the why people may feel that I'm not genuine.

I had a long chat with by best friend about this yesterday, and we both knew that I needed to end this either by walking away or asking her to walk away. Even though I can see what the right thing to do is, I just cannot go through with it.

Making excuses to justify my inaction, I'd say I just need more proof, but deep-down I already know what I want, I just cannot go through with it.

I just wish I could.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Results require action and when your current situation is unbearable enough you will act. How hot is that water going to get before you choose to jump out of the pot... if she has shagged someone, she chose to put your life at risk as well as her life at risk, the mother of children who need her.


----------



## turnera

Then ask your best friend to help you do it.


----------



## bandit.45

It is your naïveté and inability to stand up for yourself that astonishes me. 

It's almost like you have been so abused and mislead throughout your life that you have a form of chronic Stockholm Syndrome, where you have learned to only see the few good aspects of your abuser while ignoring the pile of horrible qualities they exhibit. I think it's a coping skill you have developed, and I would imagine your wife is not the first woman in your life who has mistreated you.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

bandit.45 said:


> It is your naïveté and inability to stand up for yourself that astonishes me.
> 
> It's almost like you have been so abused and mislead throughout your life that you have a form of chronic Stockholm Syndrome, where you have learned to only see the few good aspects of your abuser while ignoring the pile of horrible qualities they exhibit. I think it's a coping skill you have developed, and I would imagine your wife is not the first woman in your life who has mistreated you.


Brilliant observation because YES long term victims of abuse are TRAINED to hang on to just the breadcrumbs tossed at them of a relationship. So glad you said this. It took me YEARS to understand that I was worth MORE than just breadcrumbs and that's when I left my ex. Breadcrumbs = aka glimmers of hope.... 

The HARDEST shift I ever made was choosing to let the last shreds of hope die. VERY tough day with my ex and my mother.


----------



## bandit.45

Blossom Leigh said:


> Brilliant observation because YES long term victims of abuse are TRAINED to hang on to just the breadcrumbs tossed at them of a relationship. So glad you said this. It took me YEARS to understand that I was worth MORE than just breadcrumbs and that's when I left my ex. Breadcrumbs = aka glimmers of hope....
> 
> The HARDEST shift I ever made was choosing to let the last shreds of hope die. VERY tough day with my ex and my mother.


I have had people, family and associates, who have abused me in the past. I took their crap for no other reason than I felt is was supposed to take it. I was like that for years. The cold hard conclusion I eventually came up with is that I needed to cut those negative people out of my life. 

Now if someone drags me down, criticizes me in an abusive manner....they don't get a second chance with me...They are gone...excised, or I walk away, whether it be a lover, a coworker or relative. I simply do not have the time in my life to deal with other people's bad behavior. I have one shot at this life and I'm not going to let fvcked up, broken-ass people drag me down into their dysfunction. 

My AA group talked about this very subject last night.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ACOA addresses it too... glad you broke away..


----------



## Roller

Bandit and Blossom - I thank you so much for what you've said and what you are doing for me.

I can see the logic in everything you've said. The step seems "smaller", but it's still a step that I fear and dread enormously.

The stockholm syndrome (that someone has suggested I read up on - I think it may have been one of you guys) is definitely there to some extent.

I've also identified that I "deny/justify the bad in people" - not necessarily that I only see the goos - I do see the bad, but I seem to need to justify the bad. After all, they may be going through the same sh*t as I'm going through, etc - that kinda thing!

The breadcrumbs analogy also makes sense - it's exactly what I get, my friend mentioned that yesterday - that I look forward to a couple of hours alone (when she's out) or a weekend where she "has" to be nice to me (because I'm a taxi for her or something)! 

I find myself suggesting she go out because that way I don't get abused and normally she's nice on the morning after - possibly for all the wrong reasons in hindsight!

Anyway, as I say, I thank you for making the step smaller and logical. It's forcing me to put on foot in front of the other and take that step that I mean to keep working on.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

You will get there... once the mind is exposed and expanded it can no longer go back to the way it was.


----------



## azteca1986

It sounds trite, but the first step is the hardest. That's when you're fighting against your present inertia. The next step and each one after that gets easier.


----------



## turnera

Are you seeing a psychologist?


----------



## bandit.45

Blossom Leigh said:


> You will get there... once the mind is exposed and expanded it can no longer go back to the way it was.


"Free your mind and your ass will follow."

-George Clinton


----------



## bandit.45

Roller you have a born right to pursue happiness for yourself. If your clueless wife is dragging you down...cut the cords and let her drop. 

Seriously. If she is not adding anything to your existence, why do you keep her around? If she is a detriment and not an asset to your existence then you need to dump her. 

Dump her and don't look back. 

Read Ayn Rand. One notable phrase of hers that I love and have tried to incorporate into my life is "Follow your bliss." 

Determine what it is you love in life and pursue it with all your heart. Your "bliss" should never ever be another person... You have forsaken your bliss and traded it for slavery to a woman who cares nothing for you. You've been beaten down for so long you don't know what a healthy, nurturing relationship is like.


----------



## Forest

azteca1986 said:


> It sounds trite, but the first step is the hardest. That's when you're fighting against your present inertia. The next step and each one after that gets easier.


Very well said.


----------



## Chaparral

You know, one of my best girl friends of mine married one of my best friends. I introduced them actually. I never thought in a million years they would date and go together. He was a partier, family supported, even got caut sleeping with her roomate( a model)before they got serious and married.

No one could believe she didn't know what he was like and would marry him. Now I think she didn't know what he would do. Another theory is she was so in love she would ignore his boy's nights out.

However, after about twenty years, he called her from his car one night. He had a friend with him and when the call was over he didn't disconnect the call or he butt dialed her. She heard him talking about women he was and had banged, somee she knew.

Immediate divorce.

My point is, you're in denial. When you gets the [email protected] to investigate, your [email protected] will take over and her party will be over. I don't think you care for playing the fool. I think you will take back your life.


----------



## Roller

turnera said:


> Are you seeing a psychologist?


Not a psychologist as such, but I am working with a relationship counselor on a one-to-one basis.


----------



## Roller

Thank you guys so much, I can't believe your continuing support. I was expecting my question to be answered by a few, then the thread would just die slowly, but the fact that you guys keep trying to help me along this painful path is amazing, thanks - it's all I can say!

A brief update, I saw my counselor this morning (UK time). Before going, I thought deeply about what a few of you had said and where I was headed. This was particularly in my head - 



bandit.45 said:


> It is your naïveté and inability to stand up for yourself that astonishes me.
> 
> It's almost like you have been so abused and mislead throughout your life that you have a form of chronic Stockholm Syndrome, where you have learned to only see the few good aspects of your abuser while ignoring the pile of horrible qualities they exhibit. I think it's a coping skill you have developed, and I would imagine your wife is not the first woman in your life who has mistreated you.


You are correct, absolutely correct. I've only ever slept with my wife and hadn't had any "adult relationships" before her, however I had a few girlfriends (maybe 5-6), of those only 3 were in any way serious. 2 of those 3 left me for my best friend at the time (not the same guy - 2 different "best friends") the third also 2-timed me and dumped me! I've never really dumped a woman/girl.

Then there's the case of my first proper "boss" - I worked for her for 4 years and was humiliated by her almost daily. I worked my ass off for her, putting in massive hours only for her to belittle me and take credit for my work. She was one of those "promoted to the point of ignorance" people who was in a job she knew nothing about - I made her look good but she had to keep me in my place! I think possibly this has affected me a lot and may account for some of my self-doubt and insecurities.

I'm not making excuses - I made that point clear to my counselor - I don't want to use those newly identified past-life experiences to justify anything, but it obviously helps me understand how I've become what I am.

Then, there's the question of "what am I afraird of", we ran many scenarios. I'm not afraid of being alone (I think I'd like it, and if I chose to do so, I'm relatively confident that I could "find someone"), I'm not financially restricted, I'm basically not scared of anything that effects me personally AFTER leaving/being left. What I am scared of is:

1 - the conflict. Conflict terrifies me in a curl-up-in-a-corner kind of way. I know how stupid/childish/unmanly this sounds, but I'm being honest! I can hire-and-fire people professionally and make other tough day-to-day business decisions (including large financial decisions) without losing any sleep, but it's totally different in my personal life!

2 - I won't be able to protect her. Now, this is a revelation that I think we (my counselor and I) stumbled across this morning. I've lived my life to provide and protect her and the boys. By not being there, how can I do that........I cannot (and no doubt many of you will say that I don't need to). So this is the next hurdle that I emotionally need to get over.

So, there you go, my heart on the table for you guys! Im being honest and I appreciate a lot of it will make little-or-no sense, but it's what I am.

Thanks again guys.


----------



## Chaparral

You aren't there to protect her now. She's running the streets at night. I'm surprised she's never come home with a bruise or two, maybe a hand print.

Its more like people need to be protected from her.................like you do.


----------



## happyman64

Roller

It makes a lot of sense.

Now I'll pose this to you.

Did you ever thi your wife wants a man, a husband that will stand up, take charge and accept no disrespect from her???

Some woman call it "manning up" or "fighting for me".

It will be good for you to demand respect. 

It will also be good for you to stand up for yourself.

Keep focusing on you.

HM


----------



## Roller

Chaparral said:


> You aren't there to protect her now. She's running the streets at night. I'm surprised she's never come home with a bruise or two, maybe a hand print.
> 
> Its more like people need to be protected from her.................like you do.


She's come home with plenty of bruises I can assure you, normally attributable to the drink and falling over, but who knows?!


----------



## Roller

happyman64 said:


> Roller
> 
> It makes a lot of sense.
> 
> Now I'll pose this to you.
> 
> Did you ever thi your wife wants a man, a husband that will stand up, take charge and accept no disrespect from her???
> 
> Some woman call it "manning up" or "fighting for me".
> 
> It will be good for you to demand respect.
> 
> It will also be good for you to stand up for yourself.
> 
> Keep focusing on you.
> 
> HM


I'm trying to stick to the 180 and the no more nice-guy stance, and I can already see a swing in the relationship. She seems to be working harder to make me want her - normally the other way around.


----------



## Chaparral

Download the first book ,mmslp,linked to below. It can be dowloaded from amazon.com. 

Read as quickly as possible and start running the MAP plan.


----------



## badmemory

*"She's come home with plenty of bruises I can assure you"
*
Page 12, section 2, red flag #27 - out of the "Evidence of Cheating Handbook".


----------



## bandit.45

Roller said:


> I'm trying to stick to the 180 and the no more nice-guy stance, and I can already see a swing in the relationship. She seems to be working harder to make me want her - normally the other way around.


Well don't rest on your laurels yet. Don't get c0cky....

The 180 is for you to become emotionally independent of your wife, to learn to not hedge your bets on her, and to strengthen your emotional dependence on yourself. That way, if it all implodes and the two of you split, you will have developed the emotional armor to withstand her hurtful behavior, stay focused, and move forward with your life.

Do you understand? The 180 is for your self improvement, not to win her back or get her to straighten up.


----------



## bandit.45

Roller said:


> She's come home with plenty of bruises I can assure you, normally attributable to the drink and falling over, but who knows?!


Rough sex in back alleys and cars can give you bruises like that too.


----------



## OldWolf57

coming home drunk and bruised doesn't sound like she is the untouchable one my friend.
If the stories was about those friends, well I'm pretty sure even you can now see that was a crock.
With them being that drunk means she has to do the same to be accepted.


----------



## GusPolinski

Roller said:


> She's come home with plenty of bruises I can assure you, normally attributable to the drink and falling over, but who knows?!





bandit.45 said:


> Rough sex in back alleys and cars can give you bruises like that too.


Hmm... any other weird signs?


----------



## Roller

bandit.45 said:


> Well don't rest on your laurels yet. Don't get c0cky....
> 
> The 180 is for you to become emotionally independent of your wife, to learn to not hedge your bets on her, and to strengthen your emotional dependence on yourself. That way, if it all implodes and the two of you split, you will have developed the emotional armor to withstand her hurtful behavior, stay focused, and move forward with your life.
> 
> Do you understand? The 180 is for your self improvement, not to win her back or get her to straighten up.


Yes, I do understand it's purpose. Certainly not getting c0cky. 

I got "shouted" at again last night via txt from her and I immediately caved-in, I feel so diappointed with myself for doing so. Still, two steps forward and one back maybe, let's hope so.


----------



## Thound

Roller said:


> Yes, I do understand it's purpose. Certainly not getting c0cky.
> 
> I got "shouted" at again last night via txt from her and I immediately caved-in, I feel so diappointed with myself for doing so. Still, two steps forward and one back maybe, let's hope so.


Dont dwell on the F ups. Keep moving forward. You will make some mistakes. Just try to not make BIG ones. Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## OldWolf57

She's been conditioning you for years, so don't expect yourself to suddenly change.
The important thing is to keep pushing forward. Very FEW are able right out the gate.

Next time she txt you like that, respond with a shouted "F##k You !!" back, then shut down your fone.
That will be so not like you, she may come running home to go after you. 
That will give you another chance to 180 her butt.

Just keep moving forward.


----------



## turnera

What can you do TODAY to make up for your caving yesterday? Can you give us more details?


----------



## Roller

turnera said:


> What can you do TODAY to make up for your caving yesterday? Can you give us more details?


Sorry for delay - as I've said before, difficult to use this forum on a weekend when being scrutinized for using the laptop/phone.

What details do you want, I'm an open book, so I'll tell you anything you want to know.

In terms of what I can do today....I'm not sure how to answer that, other than continue working toward the 180 and trying to stay "stronger than I've been". The problem is now, that I'm permanently thinking about it, what she's done, what she might have done, how it makes me feel, how "trapped" I feel, how I'm struggling to find a way out, etc, etc.

It's easy to justify feeling "down" and it's easier (in my conditioned-mind at least) to "do nothing" that to "do something for me", but I keep trying to push myself to take this step that I simply know I need to take.....but, being scared of the conflict, it's just SO easy to sit there and do nothing


----------



## turnera

Give us some details on ways in which you back down, or cave, or give her what she wants just to avoid her getting mad; we can give you concrete steps to take the next time it happens.

Give us details on how this particular caving happened so we can show you how you could have avoided it.

And explain why you have to HIDE being on the internet during the weekends?


----------



## Roller

turnera said:


> Give us some details on ways in which you back down, or cave, or give her what she wants just to avoid her getting mad; we can give you concrete steps to take the next time it happens.
> 
> Give us details on how this particular caving happened so we can show you how you could have avoided it.
> 
> And explain why you have to HIDE being on the internet during the weekends?


Let's do these in reverse order then, I hide my use of social media/etc on the weekends, because it'll basically get used to justify something. Mostly she'll accuse me of doing something wrong, live flirting, etc (even when she knows I'm probably using it for work, or at worst for a standard browse - I have nothing to hide - other than this thread). It's not that she really thinks that I'm doing something I shouldn't, but it gives her something to "use". 

She "uses" it (my using a laptop/phone/etc) to justify her use of her mobile phone/ipad/laptop/etc - "you were using yours the other day and I said nothing" (I'll have looked at my phone for 5 mins - she'll justify 2 hours with that!!) or, alternatively she'll "use" it to justify having a rant at me - so that I know how it feels when someone's questioning your use of a phone!

The particular "caving in" this weekend is difficult to be accurate about without disclosing so much that it'll be obvious who I am (if she were to read this thread). But basically it was as a result of my moving-on with the 180 plan. I've been quite in general and "short" with responses, basically the "I don't give a f*ck" approach. In a response to one of her normal/relatively nice/everyday txts I responded in this manner - non offensive, just short and to-the-point. She went mad accusing me of not making an effort to fix our relationship, that it was always down to her, that she was sick and tired of being the only one trying to fix us, etc!

In general, I cave in because I want the immediate conflict/shouting/aggression to end. I really struggle to think clearly in a conflict situation where I have no respect shown to me. Professionally, if I'm disagreeing with someone (or disciplining or other conflict-situation) I can handle it because by-enlarge I have the confidence in myself (and a feeling that I'm respected) to deal with it. Personally this lack of respect and lack of confidence means that I almost literally want to curl-up-in-a-corner and wait for it to be over. My counselor has identified that this is linked to childhood where my parents "covered" lovingly for my lack of confidence and fear of conflict. In those situations, they'd do the "dirty-work" for me and face the conflict.

As normal, I hope that my rambling answers make some sort of sense.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

You "are" fixing it... just not in her way and you can tell her that.

"Wife, I am fixing it.. just in my style not yours. If you don't like my style, there's the door." And when she goes off and rants... Tell her, you are done talking until she can speak to you like a calm rational adult. Then hang up the phone. If she blows up your phone, pick it up ONE time and tell her ONE time that she is now harassing you, that you have said no talking until she is calm, which includes harassment, therefore you are asking her to stop and that you are hanging up the phone.


Something sounds off about your parents "fixing" things for you. Fixing conflict with "who?"


----------



## turnera

Roller said:


> Let's do these in reverse order then, I hide my use of social media/etc on the weekends, because it'll basically get used to justify something. Mostly she'll accuse me of doing something wrong, live flirting, etc (even when she knows I'm probably using it for work, or at worst for a standard browse - I have nothing to hide - other than this thread). It's not that she really thinks that I'm doing something I shouldn't, but it gives her something to "use".


So?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

She most definitely uses her emotional weight as a weapon. When you recognize that for what it is, your battle will be half over.


----------



## turnera

Roller said:


> She "uses" it (my using a laptop/phone/etc) to justify her use of her mobile phone/ipad/laptop/etc - "you were using yours the other day and I said nothing"


Which is when you say "Wife, you're free to spend 3 hours on the internet; just know that if you do, I will then be free to visit my lawyer to see what happens when we separate. If you want to agree to a 10-minute limit for both of us, 3 times a day, I'm happy to oblige. But I won't stay married to someone who spends 3 hours a day on the computer."

Take the power away from her. She can do whatever she wants; but you will effect a consequence if she does something you find harmful to your marriage, the marriage YOU want.


----------



## turnera

When she criticizes your 'way' of doing things, just practice shrugging. Literally. And when she then raises her voice, you either hang up or leave the room. 

This really is all on you, ok? YOU have to leave the room when she abuses you, to TEACH her not to do it. 

Yell at me, I leave. Criticize me, I leave. Call me a name, I leave. Let me know when you're ready to talk to me like a human being. And in the meantime, I'm visiting my lawyer.


----------



## Roller

turnera said:


> So?


So it's killing me that she chooses to spend all of her free time (and more) on her phone txting/flirting/generally socialising but pretends not to. By giving her justifications (even though they are not really justifying the time), I feel I'm playing into her hands.

In her head, my spending 10 mins on the phone means I'm doing something I shouldn't which means she can do 10 things that she shouldn't.

Don't get me wrong. I understand what you are saying - I'm merely providing the reasoning in my head. I'm old and ugly enough to know that it isn't really correct - but I seem to not be able to tell a part of my brain that much!!


----------



## Roller

turnera said:


> When she criticizes your 'way' of doing things, just practice shrugging. Literally. And when she then raises her voice, you either hang up or leave the room.
> 
> This really is all on you, ok? YOU have to leave the room when she abuses you, to TEACH her not to do it.
> 
> Yell at me, I leave. Criticize me, I leave. Call me a name, I leave. Let me know when you're ready to talk to me like a human being. And in the meantime, I'm visiting my lawyer.


I like the thinking behind this, and it's not a million-miles-away from what I'm trying to do.


----------



## GusPolinski

turnera said:


> when she criticizes your 'way' of doing things, just practice shrugging. Literally. And when she then raises her voice, you either hang up or leave the room.
> 
> This really is all on you, ok? You have to leave the room when she abuses you, to teach her not to do it.
> 
> Yell at me, i leave. Criticize me, i leave. Call me a name, i leave. Let me know when you're ready to talk to me like a human being. And in the meantime, i'm visiting my lawyer.


Like x 1,000,000


----------



## turnera

Roller said:


> So it's killing me that she chooses to spend all of her free time (and more) on her phone txting/flirting/generally socialising but pretends not to. By giving her justifications (even though they are not really justifying the time), I feel I'm playing into her hands.


Again, so? What she does has NO reflection on you; they are her own poor choices, her own selfishness, and the only way you will ever be happy is when you start saying STOP.

Have you read NMMNG yet? MMSLP? Hold On To Your N.U.T.S.?

If not, get ONE of them TODAY and start READING today. And let her see you DOING IT.


----------



## azteca1986

Roller said:


> I've been quite in general and "short" with responses, basically the "I don't give a f*ck" approach. In a response to one of her normal/relatively nice/everyday txts I responded in this manner - non offensive, just short and to-the-point. She went mad accusing me of not making an effort to fix our relationship, that it was always down to her, that she was sick and tired of being the only one trying to fix us, etc!


The first part is progress, mate. Her response, is how she keeps you in line. The better you get at the 180, the less you'll care - about her, what she has to say or her tantrums.


----------



## JerryB

Does she work?

Jeez man, just cancel her cell phone. Change the wifi password so only you can use the Internet. Change your bank account to a private one at a different bank, switch main bills over you want to keep up like rent/mortgage, etc, and then close your original account. Her cards won't work then. Watch to see how often she goes out to drink or party then.

And when she complains, have an answer ready.
Mine would be, "I'm not going to enable your cheating anymore".
Or, "I'm not paying for you to ignore me anymore". I'm right here, spend time with me." Or whatever beta version you're comfortable with.

You have more power than you realize. You're just not thinking out side of the box. You think you have to play by her rules, but you don't.

I know you're still working through this process, so good luck.

By the way, I found a LOT of help from "ACA" (ACoA) in recognizing why I had certain insecurities from childhood.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ACOA was pivotal for me last fall... so I second that motion.


----------



## DayOne

turnera said:


> When she criticizes your 'way' of doing things, just practice shrugging. Literally. And when she then raises her voice, you either hang up or leave the room.
> 
> This really is all on you, ok? YOU have to leave the room when she abuses you, to TEACH her not to do it.
> 
> Yell at me, I leave. Criticize me, I leave. Call me a name, I leave. Let me know when you're ready to talk to me like a human being. And in the meantime, I'm visiting my lawyer.


Nailed it.! :smthumbup:


----------



## Roller

JerryB said:


> Does she work?
> 
> Jeez man, just cancel her cell phone. Change the wifi password so only you can use the Internet. Change your bank account to a private one at a different bank, switch main bills over you want to keep up like rent/mortgage, etc, and then close your original account. Her cards won't work then. Watch to see how often she goes out to drink or party then.
> 
> And when she complains, have an answer ready.
> Mine would be, "I'm not going to enable your cheating anymore".
> Or, "I'm not paying for you to ignore me anymore". I'm right here, spend time with me." Or whatever beta version you're comfortable with.
> 
> You have more power than you realize. You're just not thinking out side of the box. You think you have to play by her rules, but you don't.
> 
> I know you're still working through this process, so good luck.
> 
> By the way, I found a LOT of help from "ACA" (ACoA) in recognizing why I had certain insecurities from childhood.


Sorry, but what is "ACA" or ACoA?

Thanks


----------



## turnera

Welcome to Adult Children of Alcoholics - World Service Organization, Inc.


----------



## Roller

Someone previously mentioned co-dependency and it was something that my counselor identified today. As a result, I've had a look at this online, and found this:

Codependency Relationships - Codependent

Sure does seem to sum me up!

So, IMHO in this thread we've learned that she is a Narcissistic cheat and I'm a co-dependent! Not the ideal of relationships then!


----------



## Chaparral

Could be worse, much worse. At least you don't have ebola.

Any luck on the 180?


----------



## badmemory

Roller said:


> So, IMHO in this thread we've learned that she is a Narcissistic cheat and I'm a co-dependent! Not the ideal of relationships then!


That's a very common pairing for a narcissist. Co-dependents are about the only ones that will put up with their @ss.


----------



## Roller

Chaparral said:


> Could be worse, much worse. At least you don't have ebola.
> 
> Any luck on the 180?


Very true, yeah definitely progress I feel, finding it hard to not say anything when I'm dying to do so, but at least I'm fighting the urge.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Go on youtube and look up Narcissist Codependent relationships. Eye opener for sure.

Like this one..

Codependents Always Fall In Love With Narcissists…: http://youtu.be/SDwJ17KcpZM


----------



## azteca1986

Roller said:


> So, IMHO in this thread we've learned that she is a Narcissistic cheat and I'm a co-dependent! Not the ideal of relationships then!


It's the ideal relationship for _her_. Our spouses have huge influence on the kind of spouse become. She's exploited you Nice Guys tendencies to control you. It'll take a little time to unlearn this. But you will now you have your eyes open


----------



## Blossom Leigh

There is a book called Betrayal Bond that you need.


----------



## Roller

Apologies for not updating in a while. 

I've been working hard on getting my head in the right place. As I'm sure is relatively common, it's difficult because one day I'll feel strongly "OK, decision done, I'm leaving, but need to get everything in place before I announce that I'm leaving", the next day I may feel "I'm leaving now.......I just need to tell her......oh, no I can't" and sometime I'll feel "it's not that bad, things seem better, lets give it some time"!

I'm been working on the 180 and talking weekly to a personal counsellor. Working hard on "detaching with love" and dealing with the co-dependency.

I've hit rock bottom a couple of times and considered doing "something stupid" involving a cliff, but I assure you that it isn't an option for me. I cannot - I have kids, and there is no way that I'm going to be that selfish a father!

So far, the VAR has turned-up nothing. Sex-life has become non-existent. Her going-out hasn't changed and the phone remains permanently attached to her!

That said, I have proof of something. I can see (from phone records that I managed to get my hands on - thanks to GusPolinski) that in the early hours (when she was very drunk and had been out all day previous) that she tried to contact this OM by calling him. At the exact same time she was txting me to tell me she was with some friends and would contact me later to come and get her!

It's probably as close as I'll get to proving anything, and right now, I feel that it may be enough for me to confront her.

I know how pathetic I must appear to you guys - that I have this latest info on her, plus all of the backstory that makes it seem impossible to imagine staying - but I'm finding it so, so hard to make the decision. This is my life and the "pain" of loving her is all that I've known for so many years. My head tells me that it hasn't always been painful, but my heart cannot remember it being any different - it's conditioning!

Some of you may be thinking "what's the point of this update", after all I already knew that leaving was the only sensible solution. I just felt that it was important to update you guys and once again thank you for pointing me in the correct direction(s). I hope I'm a big step closer and will keep you posted.


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## badmemory

An honest update. Very good.

The advice hasn't changed roller.


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## bandit.45

What about filing for divorce?


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## Blossom Leigh

Just all the support to you Roller... I know it's hard. Hope your path clears and strength rises.


----------



## Roller

bandit.45 said:


> What about filing for divorce?


Struggling to say the words "I've had enough" or "I want out" let alone take it that far. It's not what I want, what I want is my happy married life back, but I appreciate that isn't going to happen. Actually divorcing is something that scares me senseless!


----------



## BobSimmons

Roller said:


> Struggling to say the words "I've had enough" or "I want out" let alone take it that far. It's not what I want, what I want is my happy married life back, but I appreciate that isn't going to happen. Actually divorcing is something that scares me senseless!


What's scary about it?


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Right now your not in a healthy state of mind to do anything. Your fear controls your decision or lack there of. By taking away divorce as an option, you are left with no option, but to allow your wife to dictate the relationship. Right now, your not ready to confront, because you lack any conviction of dealing any real consequences. If you do confront, you would just seem weak. Also, be strong for your children. Show them whether , you and your wife stick together or not, you can have a fulfilling life. Just be the role model they need. Right now your not capable of that. Your fear of unknown future outcomes is holding you back. The faster acceptance happens, and when your ready to face all future outcomes, then your in a ready state.


----------



## Chaparral

Are you getting professional counseling? I'm thinking PTSD.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

At least Complex PTSD possibility... take a look at that online just for reference.


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## bandit.45

You should have filed for divorce long ago. The longer you put it off, the longer you stay in this hell. 

Waiting for her to come around has not worked has it?

Can you tell us, honestly, what was it about your upbringing that made you so passive and lacking in self worth?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Roller

Chaparral said:


> Are you getting professional counseling? I'm thinking PTSD.


My counselor has once identified/mentioned PTSD and I do understand why. Not really doing anything about it though - maybe this is something I need to consider further.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Roller...

http://www.amazon.com/Complex-PTSD-...8&qid=1415118900&sr=8-1&keywords=complex+ptsd

http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Devel...&qid=1415118900&sr=8-11&keywords=complex+ptsd


----------



## Roller

bandit.45 said:


> You should have filed for divorce long ago. The longer you put it off, the longer you stay in this hell.
> 
> Waiting for her to come around has not worked has it?
> 
> Can you tell us, honestly, what was it about your upbringing that made you so passive and lacking in self worth?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OMG, this is difficult! As a child I feared conflict, one of my earliest memories of this was seeing my friends being made to line-up to take a beating from the headmaster (principal) at school and putting myself (emotionally) in place of the last boy in-line. Just imagining what it must be like for him to stand there, knowing what was coming his way. It scared me massively.

After that, every time the headmaster (principle) would start to get angry, I would be terrified - more so of the build-up to the punishment than the punishment itself. To the point that one day I admitted to doing something I had not done because I simply couldn't cope with the build-up/anticipation of what was coming. Thankfully the teachers seemed to understand that I was taking the blame without reason and decided not to punish me.

As a child I came from a loving home where my parents obviously understood me and seemed to shelter me from conflict situations - if I cried because I didn't want to do something, then by-enlarge they'd make sure that I didn't have to do it. I remember having to deal with the guilt that my parents took the flack from others who felt I let them down - all of that before I was 11.

My father was very much a man's man outwardly, although my mother seemed to wind-him-up quite a bit, and I do remember him telling me "if it wasn't for you kids I'd have left her", but that said, it was all covered-up very well, to the point that I didn't really remember him saying that until recently. My mother is a very loving woman, but I certainly think that there was a case of sweeping things under the carpet going-on. 

My first "bosses" were all female, and they were really b*tchy! I was "used" extensively by them because they were "promoted to the point of ignorance" so I'd be slave-driven to do all the paperwork/meetings/etc that they were incapable of dealing with themselves.

I fear sounding sexist or old-fashioned, but recently I've found myself longing for the seemingly simpler days when roles within relationships were more clearly defined. It's not that I think for one second that there is any difference between sexes in terms of what individuals are capable of, it's just that these days I seem to be told to "be a man, take no sh*t" then "be in touch with your feelings" then "be a provider - a hunter gatherer" then "show your kids you love them", etc, etc.

Although I said that my father was a man's man, I think that he was also a very passive guy within the relationship. Perhaps because my mother was so willing to brush-things-under-the-carper, he knew that at any point, she could lift that carpet and bring-things-up. I have the exact opposite type of wife who goes so far as to make things-up (re-write history) in order to use them against me at every opportunity. Most often those opportunities are when I question her about something - again, as I've said many times, the best form of defense is attack (try telling that to the Oakland Raiders)!!!

As a child/teenager I was into very painful sports - where pain is a "badge of honour" and is essentially seen as "good for you". I'm afraid that possibly, as I got older, gave up the sports to be spending more time with the woman I love, maybe that mentality of "pain is good for me" transferred from physical to emotional. Certainly, after an argument and making-up I feel like I've achieved something positive - which in the cold-light-of-day sounds stupid!

Also, as I've mentioned previously, I never thought I was "good enough" in terms of physical appearance for my wife. She was "out of my league", but somehow, she became mine. I chased her for a year before she agreed to date me and during that time she had other boyfriends. Only when she saw me with another girl, did she accept my advances!

In short, I hate conflict and the anticipation thereof. I can deal with it professionally, I manage staff all-day every-day. But on a personal level, I'm terrified of the next argument, and regardless of how honest I am, I cannot answer why - what am I terrified of? My counselor noted a massive physical reaction when I realized that I'd missed a couple of calls from my wife during one of our sessions (obviously the phone was on "silent" during the session). I couldn't finish the session quick enough to get out and call her. I was physically shaking, worrying about it!

Not sure of this brain/emotional dump answers the question, but I've tried.


----------



## Roller

BobSimmons said:


> What's scary about it?


Telling the woman I've lived for all of my adult life that I cannot live with her, let alone for her anymore means putting myself first. Being codependent that to me is almost like trying to live without air or water!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Roller said:


> *Only when she saw me with another girl, did she accept my advances!* *RED FLAG*
> 
> My counselor noted a *massive physical reaction* when I realized that I'd missed a couple of calls from my wife during one of our sessions (obviously the phone was on "silent" during the session). I couldn't finish the session quick enough to get out and call her. *I was physically shaking*, worrying about it!
> 
> .


Definitely sounds like your counselor pegged this one... I used to have the same reactions to my mother when she would call.

Note the words USED TO...

wanna know now that became past tense?


----------



## Roller

Blossom Leigh said:


> Definitely sounds like your counselor pegged this one... I used to have the same reactions to my mother when she would call.
> 
> Note the words USED TO...
> 
> wanna know now that became past tense?


Yes I want to know, but you and I both know that even when I know, I wont necessarily be able to do it! 

Thanks again for all your support.


----------



## turnera

I have a small project for you. Vow to, when she calls you, not pick up. Don't answer the phone. Then in 5 minutes, take a deep breath to calm yourself and call her back and ask what she needed. This will help you regain a little self esteem, and also prove to you that the world won't crash if you aren't a slave to her.


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## Blossom Leigh

Roller said:


> Yes I want to know, but you and I both know that even when I know, I wont necessarily be able to do it!
> 
> Thanks again for all your support.


I educated myself on destructive abusive relationships...

Then when I was ready...
I broke the silence....

I put her on notice that going forward things were going to be different...

That I would no longer accept her abusive behavior in silence..

I would be calling her on the carpet going forward.

Took five years for the reactions to stop...

I stood up to her and at the same time replace her lies about me with the truth about me and learned to stand on my own two feet.

ETA: During this time I surrounded myself with very strong support. People who had back bone that I didn't have at the time.


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## Mr.Fisty

Well, now you have to change. The moment that you decided to have kids, the responsibility of being an example fell onto you and your wife. 
Funny thing about being a parent, you have to be a role model for them to emulate. Become strong for your children, because they deserve a good role model, and hopefully they can learn from your wisdom gained.


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## bandit.45

Self assertiveness can be learned. Standing up for yourself can be learned. Like Blossom Leigh said, start by reading some books on handling other people in conflict situations. Educate yourself. If you can, look for classes in assertiveness training...they do exist. 

You have nothing to fear from your wife. Nada. What is she going to do...slap you? Threaten you with empty threats? 

At some point you need to make decision you are not putting up with her sh!t anymore. If it were me in your position, she would come home to an empty flat one day. All my clothes and personal effects would be gone, and my ring and the divorce papers would by lying on the table for her to see the first thing as she walked in the door.


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## MachoMcCoy

I can't believe you still need "proof". If that is all you need, hire a PI to tail her on her nights out. 

You will have all of the "proof" you need.


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## bandit.45

Your wife reminds me of Cat on the Eastenders. Cat was a ho, but at least she had some empathy for her husband...that's the difference.


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## Roller

I suppose it is the "empty threats" that actually worry me most. In her narcisstic head, she can't "lose" (or at least I need to lose more than her).

She fears that everyone will be on my side, so she needs to make me look like a monster to everyone - so that she stands some chance of sympathetic support. 

Her "friends" are not really "friends" they are "secret sharing, drinking buddies"!


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## turnera

When YOU stop worrying about what others think, you will build your own power. And this crap will fade away.


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## bandit.45

Roller said:


> I suppose it is the "empty threats" that actually worry me most. In her narcisstic head, she can't "lose" (or at least I need to lose more than her).
> 
> She fears that everyone will be on my side, so she needs to make me look like a monster to everyone - so that she stands some chance of sympathetic support.
> 
> Her "friends" are not really "friends" they are "secret sharing, drinking buddies"!


If these people know you and they know her, they may get caught up in her drama, but soon they will see her for what she is..

And if some of these "friends" do abandon you, then they were never real friends to begin with. 

Your fear is completely manufactured. You have psyched yourself out. This woman can really do nothing to hurt you or cause you any permanent damage, except for a few battle scars. But scars are good. They remind you of what you went through and were strong enough to survive.


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## Roller

I've been commenting on the "ironclad proof" thread by TheBadGuy (bad choice of name in my opinion!) who seems to be going through something similar but with the added stress of frequent physical abuse - at least what I get is "just" emotional.

There I identified that my low confidence and low self-esteem make it difficult for me to credit myself with the right to expect my wife's "emotional exclusivity". I'm old fashioned enough to appreciate/accept/expect the need for her to be "physically exclusive" in the marriage.

Maybe it's why I frequently consider myself old fashioned - we are preached to all the time about everyone having the right to this, that and the other. Everyone should put themselves first, everyone deserves to lead their own life, etc, etc. Personally I've always felt that my exclusive right to "me" ended when I got married - that was my commitment - I was now half of a marriage, not an individual.

So, she is exercising her "right" to be emotionally attached to others - mostly female friends and I am jealous of that - but feel that I'm wrong to feel like that because she, as an individual has the right to use her emotions as she wishes. If that bit is correct (that she can use her emotions with other girl friends), then why is it wrong for her to be emotionally sharing herself with another man or men? This is my confusion and this is why I find it so difficult to accept that an EA (if even fair to call it an affair) is "cheating". If it isn't cheating then I cannot allow myself to be sufficiently "selfish" to walk away and D.

I hope that this doesn't sound like I'm throwing all the excellent advice I've received here back at you guys. That is not my intention at all, and at the end of the day, whether or not she's cheating isn't really important - it's whether or not I have a quality of life that makes it appropriate to stay in the marriage. I have practically NO quality of life, so that answers that!

Hopefully this explains why my original question and title of this thread was/is "is it cheating".

Hope that this makes some sort of sense.


----------



## BobSimmons

Roller said:


> Telling the woman I've lived for all of my adult life that I cannot live with her, let alone for her anymore means putting myself first. Being codependent that to me is almost like trying to live without air or water!


Very gently. You don't live for anyone except maybe your kids. You live for yourself, first and foremost, and by proxy your kids.

I understand codependency to an extent, then again what exactly are you dependent on her for?

You talk about fear or being scared, you give me codependency, cool. Except your example of water or air is not correct. She doesn't provide the water or the air, that's from you, neither does she provide the food. All the tools you need to survive must come from you.

She's not around you now..you're doing just fine breathing and drinking aren't you?


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## Roller

I like the analogy, thanks.

I am doing alright breathing, eating, drinking yes. But then, I don't have the her throwing abuse at me right now. 

I suppose that a big part of my concern (as I suppose makes sense having been emotionally and verbally abused for so long) is that she will be hugely abusive when I tell her that I want "out" and if I manage to get "out" then that abuse will continue - by phone, by txt, by e-mail, by telling people lies about me and humiliation, etc.

I appreciate what you said though, it does makes sense, and I'll try to keep that analogy in my head.


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## Blossom Leigh

Affairs of the heart are cheating Hon.

Read Not Just Friends
Google Emotional Affair and look at the Wikipedia page

And in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said that affairs start in the heart before they are ever carried out physically.


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## bandit.45

Good luck Roller. I'm gone.


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## Roller

bandit.45 said:


> Good luck Roller. I'm gone.


Thanks b45, don't think that I have not valued your input. 

The words "Your fear is completely manufactured. You have psyched yourself out. This woman can really do nothing to hurt you or cause you any permanent damage, except for a few battle scars. But scars are good. They remind you of what you went through and were strong enough to survive." have not be lost on me and I keep trying to apply them.


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## bandit.45

Until you respect yourself, no one else will.


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## manfromlamancha

Women forming emotional attachments with other women (providing they are not gay) is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from forming attachments with men!

You need to read NOT JUST FRIENDS asap.

Forming an emotional attachment to a member of the opposite sex is almost the very definition of an Emotional Affair!


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## turnera

I never left my H for exactly the same reason - afraid of the psycho I'd have to deal with if I left. Twenty years later, I'm too beaten down to leave.

Don't be like me. You only get one life. Find out HOW to be strong enough to withstand it. She has no power over you.


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## Roller

turnera said:


> I never left my H for exactly the same reason - afraid of the psycho I'd have to deal with if I left. Twenty years later, I'm too beaten down to leave.
> 
> Don't be like me. You only get one life. Find out HOW to be strong enough to withstand it. She has no power over you.


Thanks, glad you understand. So sorry to hear of your own sad situation. I'm sure you'll understand that I wish she had a full blown non-deniable physical affair so that she ended up wanting to leave - that would give me a way out where I did not blame myself.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Mr.fisty says,"Man, who buries head in sand, will have target painted on behind, and life will kick his a$$."

Your talking about what your wife wants and your focus iis placed too much on her. 

Order of priority should be.

1. You, as in roller. A healthy person, is a useful person, and would be a good role model for the kids. Plus you being stable, will bring stability all around you.

2. Your relationship should be next. Since your not in one, other than a piece of paper stating such, you can skip this one. Relationship, is meeting each others needs, emotional and physical. It is understanding and respect. It is dealing with the ups and downs as a team. Which at the moment, you do not have.

3. Your kids. A healthy relationship and a healthy you will bring stability to your kids. Children are blank slates, and learn how human should interact. If you look at different culture, this is true. Right now your relationship is a poor model for your children.

So, focus on point 1 and point 3. 

You talking about her needs and yes it is her right. But don't forget that you have a right to your needs and emotion too. Since, your wife's and your needs are different, you have to travel your own path. Right now your traveling hers, and not forging your own.


----------



## turnera

Roller said:


> Thanks, glad you understand. So sorry to hear of your own sad situation. I'm sure you'll understand that I wish she had a full blown non-deniable physical affair so that she ended up wanting to leave - that would give me a way out where I did not blame myself.


I have many many times wished my H would do something bad enough so I'd have no choice but to leave.

But here's the thing, Roller. KNOWING that I'm choosing to not deal with my own fate that way, KNOWING how chicken I am, makes me hate myself. If you don't take the step you know you need to take, you will grow to hate yourself, too. Don't be like me. There's no reason for it. Go to therapy consistently, long term, so you can grow to love yourself and see your own worth and strength. Then you can make decisions not because of what you're afraid of but because of what you WANT.


----------



## Roller

It's what I already tell my kids - please don't grow up to be like me - put yourselves first, etc


----------



## turnera

But they will. You're teaching them to be afraid.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Ah, the do what I say and not what I do thing. Funny how that doesn't tend to work out so well. 

Life is precious and you are not appreciating the value of your life.


----------



## bandit.45

Mr.Fisty said:


> Ah, the do what I say and not what I do thing. Funny how that doesn't tend to work out so well.
> 
> Life is precious and you are not appreciating the value of your life.


He's British. Life is supposed to be miserable or something is wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr.Fisty

bandit.45 said:


> He's British. Life is supposed to be miserable or something is wrong.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Funny thing that you mention it. In the U.K. there is a 2.4 percent of domestic violence. Most of the complaints are now made by men. In his country as far as data shows, women have been more physically abusive.


----------



## carmen ohio

Mr.Fisty said:


> Funny thing that you mention it. In the U.K. there is a 2.4 percent of domestic violence. Most of the complaints are now made by men. In his country as far as data shows, women have been more physically abusive.


To paraphrase T.S. Eliot, _"this is the way the British Empire ended, not with a bang but the whimper."_

Sadly, the rest of the Western world seems not far behind.


----------



## MattMatt

bandit.45 said:


> He's British. Life is supposed to be miserable or something is wrong.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


70F is our idea of a heatwave. Of *course* life is miserable!:rofl:


----------



## KanDo

Roller said:


> Thanks, glad you understand. So sorry to hear of your own sad situation. I'm sure you'll understand that I wish she had a full blown non-deniable physical affair so that she ended up wanting to leave - that would give me a way out where I did not blame myself.


So pitiful!... Notice how you are wishing for her to have physical affair so that * SHE *leaves! You don't even have the self respect to imaging yourself leaving with clear evidence of a physical affair. All I can say is wow. You are broken. I don't think your therapist is helping you.....I wish you luck. Please consider seeing a qualified practitioner with experience in managing codependency.


----------



## Roller

KanDo said:


> So pitiful!... Notice how you are wishing for her to have physical affair so that * SHE *leaves! You don't even have the self respect to imaging yourself leaving with clear evidence of a physical affair. All I can say is wow. You are broken. I don't think your therapist is helping you.....I wish you luck. Please consider seeing a qualified practitioner with experience in managing codependency.


Thank you. I suspect you'll have no idea how "shamed" I feel. You might as well put me in stocks and allow people to urinate on me - that's how self-loathing I've become.

I've spend hours today in a txt battle with her, with several opportunities to accept that we are "over" and "leave", but for some reason, I just cannot go through with it.

I fantasies about coming on TAM one day and typing the words "It's over, I'm free!" but it isn't happening.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

You should learn how detaching works. 

Your desire for her is causing you pain. Let go of that desire and focus on something else.

Are you at least protecting your finance ?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Roller said:


> Thank you. I suspect you'll have no idea how "shamed" I feel. You might as well put me in stocks and allow people to urinate on me - that's how self-loathing I've become.
> 
> I've spend hours today in a txt battle with her, with several opportunities to accept that we are "over" and "leave", but for some reason, I just cannot go through with it.
> 
> I fantasies about coming on TAM one day and typing the words "It's over, I'm free!" but it isn't happening.


Who is starting hours long text battles?


----------



## Roller

Mr.Fisty said:


> You should learn how detaching works.
> 
> Your desire for her is causing you pain. Let go of that desire and focus on something else.
> 
> Are you at least protecting your finance ?


My counselor is trying to get me to "detach with love" and I keep trying the 180, but bits of both are very difficult for me (appearing happy and content in particular - I'm a heart-on-the-sleeve type of guy).

Money means very little to me (I'm fortunate to be earning well), but "yes" I am protecting the majority of it very securely.

Thank you.


----------



## Roller

Blossom Leigh said:


> Who is starting hours long text battles?


Normally (like over 90% of the time) it's her. Today I suppose it was me, but I was hoping that it would be a quick, short exchange......although if I were honest......I knew it would end-up like this.

I genuinely thought that today was the best day (in terms of upcoming commitments, etc) to get "it done".......but when the opportunity was there, I didn't take it.

A couple of times today she's said "it's over" and I've even got to the practicalities of where I'm moving to/she's moving to, telling the boys, etc, etc. But then, she decides to "spin" it so that it isn't over and we go through a few more hours!

The one thing I will say is that I'm not doing what I usually do, which is to back-down, apologise, beg for another chance, etc. Today I've stuck to "if we stay together, then I expect love and respect". I'm hoping this works twofold 1. it will give me some confidence that I can stand my ground and therefore have the guts to say "I'm leaving" and stand that ground if it comes to it in the future and 2. it shows her that I'm not a walk-over or a doormat.

We'll see......


----------



## azteca1986

Roller said:


> It's what I already tell my kids - please don't grow up to be like me - put yourselves first, etc


You'll find actions speak louder than words. If you can find the strength to leave this sad excuse of a relationship you'll be teaching your kids their most valuable life lesson. And save yourself in the process.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Roller said:


> Normally (like over 90% of the time) it's her. Today I suppose it was me, but I was hoping that it would be a quick, short exchange......although if I were honest......I knew it would end-up like this.
> 
> I genuinely thought that today was the best day (in terms of upcoming commitments, etc) to get "it done".......but when the opportunity was there, I didn't take it.
> 
> A couple of times today she's said "it's over" and I've even got to the practicalities of where I'm moving to/she's moving to, telling the boys, etc, etc. But then, she decides to "spin" it so that it isn't over and we go through a few more hours!
> 
> The one thing I will say is that I'm not doing what I usually do, which is to back-down, apologise, beg for another chance, etc. Today I've stuck to "if we stay together, then I expect love and respect". I'm hoping this works twofold 1. it will give me some confidence that I can stand my ground and therefore have the guts to say "I'm leaving" and stand that ground if it comes to it in the future and 2. it shows her that I'm not a walk-over or a doormat.
> 
> We'll see......



I said the same thing to my mother.. that going forward she is to respect me and love me and those around me. Didn't work.

With my H, I just started stating what I would no longer tolerate with NO mention of future activity with stated consequences if stated destructive behavior wasn't addressed and brought under control. It worked.


----------



## Roller

azteca1986 said:


> You'll find actions speak louder than words. If you can find the strength to leave this sad excuse of a relationship you'll be teaching your kids their most valuable life lesson. And save yourself in the process.


Agree 100%..........but agreeing is easy


----------



## Roller

Blossom Leigh said:


> With my H, I just started stating what I would no longer tolerate with NO mention of future activity with stated consequences if stated destructive behavior wasn't addressed and brought under control. It worked.


So you'd agree that this is worth a shot then - to demand respect at the very least? 

It's important to me because, even if walked away from her, I'd have to (technical not "have to" but it would be nice) liaise with her regarding the boys, etc. And, I think that having that respect (and maybe some love as a friend eventually) would be beneficial to all.


----------



## TRy

Roller said:


> A couple of times today she's said "it's over" and I've even got to the practicalities of where I'm moving to/she's moving to, telling the boys, etc, etc. But then, she decides to "spin" it so that it isn't over and we go through a few more hours!


 Why do you need her permission to end it? Why do you think that what you think and want does not matter?

When people physically cheat, the actual sex acts takes up very little time from the average week. It is how the affair makes the cheater emotionally cheat that takes up most of the cheaters time during the week. This is what does most of the damage as the cheating spouse does not treat their spouse like they are married anymore. Do you feel loved honored and cherished by your wife? Does she put you before all others? If not then she is no longer honoring her wedding vows, and has emotionally left your marriage.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Roller said:


> So you'd agree that this is worth a shot then - to demand respect at the very least?
> 
> It's important to me because, even if walked away from her, I'd have to (technical not "have to" but it would be nice) liaise with her regarding the boys, etc. And, I think that having that respect (and maybe some love as a friend eventually) would be beneficial to all.


Yes, you have to make up your mind what you are no longer willing to tolerate. (destructive behavior)

Therefore, going forward... this was what I said to my H since he was chronically abusive. 

"Your anger/behavior has grown to a point beyond my capacity to cope, therefore I am asking you to have it addressed with a professional anger management program. If you will not do that by the first of the year I will be separating from you. If you still refuse to pursue that professional help, then you will be choosing to risk divorce with me."

I also decided to no longer tolerate many of the behaviors listed on Out of the FOG - Personality Disorder Support... some of the ones I stop dead in their tracks now are...

Gaslighting
Blameshifting
Minimizing
Baiting
Belittling
Condescension
Patronization
Bullying
Intimidation tactics
Emotional Blackmail
False accusations

I have zero tolerance for these in those around me or even myself. I focus on the language of constructive accurate loving 
dignified speech.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

"Don't belittle me, choose better"

If they can't

"Until you can choose contructive conversation over destructive conversation I am disengaging this conversation"

Then stop speaking.

If they press to speak to you ... keep shutting it down until they SAY... Ok, I will choose better, can we talk now, ... then and ONLY then is it yes. AND THE SECOND IT SWITCHES BACK TO DESTUCTIVE SHUT IT BACK DOWN. STAY OUT OF LONG DRAWN OUT DESTRUCTIVE ARGUMENTS.

You have to be VERY consistent with this.

I also do not tolerate him blowing up my phone. I call it harrassment, ask him to stop and hang up. 

He has also been put on alert that if he ever lays his hands on me again I will be calling the police AND pressing charges.

If he ever has another affair.. we are done. Divorcing and not looking back.

So... bottom line is... choose what you will no longer accept in your space and what you will accept in your space. 

If they are reasonable and constructive GREAT

If not and they are unreasonable and or destructive then shut it down until THEY realize the only way to get you to engage is for THEM to choose reasonable and constructive on their own.


----------



## Roller

TRy said:


> Why do you need her permission to end it? Why do you think that what you think and want does not matter?
> 
> When people physically cheat, the actual sex acts takes up very little time from the average week. It is how the affair makes the cheater emotionally cheat that takes up most of the cheaters time during the week. This is what does most of the damage as the cheating spouse does not treat their spouse like they are married anymore. Do you feel loved honored and cherished by your wife? Does she put you before all others? If not then she is no longer honoring her wedding vows, and has emotionally left your marriage.


Because I'm a codependent. That's not an excuse, it's a bloody pain in the ass!!

The instant I try to end it, my World fills with fear, guilt, almost a physical reaction. I've tried to describe it several times, but I cannot. 

The best I've got is to say that i can clearly see the future - without her, but have NO IDEA how to get there. Regardless of how many people give me directions, offer me maps and SatNavs, I'm unable to follow their directions or accept their offer for the maps/SatNavs. If however, they offered to drive me there, then I'd hop in and be thankful for the ride.

I can absolutely see your point, and it's exactly what I'd advise someone else asking for an opinion.......but.....


----------



## Roller

Blossom Leigh said:


> "Don't belittle me, choose better"
> 
> If they can't
> 
> "Until you can choose contructive conversation over destructive conversation I am disengaging this conversation"
> 
> Then stop speaking.
> 
> If they press to speak to you ... keep shutting it down until they SAY... Ok, I will choose better, can we talk now, ... then and ONLY then is it yes. AND THE SECOND IT SWITCHES BACK TO DESTUCTIVE SHUT IT BACK DOWN. STAY OUT OF LONG DRAWN OUT DESTRUCTIVE ARGUMENTS.
> 
> You have to be VERY consistent with this.
> 
> I also do not tolerate him blowing up my phone. I call it harrassment, ask him to stop and hang up.
> 
> He has also been put on alert that if he ever lays his hands on me again I will be calling the police AND pressing charges.
> 
> If he ever has another affair.. we are done. Divorcing and not looking back.
> 
> So... bottom line is... choose what you will no longer accept in your space and what you will accept in your space.
> 
> If they are reasonable and constructive GREAT
> 
> If not and they are unreasonable and or destructive then shut it down until THEY realize the only way to get you to engage is for THEM to choose reasonable and constructive on their own.


Makes a lot of sense. Thanks.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Roller said:


> Because I'm a codependent. That's not an excuse, it's a bloody pain in the ass!!
> 
> The instant I try to end it, my World fills with fear, guilt, almost a physical reaction. I've tried to describe it several times, but I cannot.
> 
> The best I've got is to say that i can clearly see the future - without her, but have NO IDEA how to get there. Regardless of how many people give me directions, offer me maps and SatNavs, I'm unable to follow their directions or accept their offer for the maps/SatNavs. If however, they offered to drive me there, then I'd hop in and be thankful for the ride.
> 
> I can absolutely see your point, and it's exactly what I'd advise someone else asking for an opinion.......but.....


I know this fear... it is because at a gut level you realize you have skills that are missing. My last two posts are part of those skills. If you got good at them, these fears would melt away.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Before making statements, you should have the will to back them up.


Try boxing or something that gives you agression. You sure need it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Mr.Fisty said:


> Before making statements, you should have the will to back them up.
> 
> 
> Try boxing or something that gives you agression. You sure need it.



This is a great idea because it takes a lot of strength to make this stand. Steely Resolve is what I had by the time I executed my plan.


----------



## Roller

Mr.Fisty said:


> Before making statements, you should have the will to back them up.
> 
> 
> Try boxing or something that gives you agression. You sure need it.


Fair point, ironically (or maybe typically) one of the things I gave up to spend more time with here when we started seeing each other was contact sports!


----------



## Mr.Fisty

a


MattMatt said:


> 70F is our idea of a heatwave. Of *course* life is miserable!:rofl:



In other news, here in the U.K., it will be another dreary day, with fog. 

On the brighter side, it will only last until summer starts.


----------



## bandit.45

Roller said:


> Fair point, ironically (or maybe typically) one of the things I gave up to spend more time with here when we started seeing each other was contact sports!


Are you a rugger? Boxer?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Roller said:


> Fair point, ironically (or maybe typically) one of the things I gave up to spend more time with here when we started seeing each other was contact sports!


I tell ya another thing that will help you learn this is doing ground work with an unruly horse in a round pen. That takes time to learn, but telling a 1500 lb horse to keep out of your space when he is putting his shoulder into you so that he can ram the top of your head is a GREAT visual for learning how to protect yourself when those we love wield their emotions like a weapon.


----------



## bandit.45

Blossom Leigh said:


> I tell ya another thing that will help you learn this is doing ground work with an unruly horse in a round pen. That takes time to learn, but telling a 1500 lb horse to keep out of your space when he is putting his shoulder into you so that he can ram the top of your head is a GREAT visual for learning how to protect yourself when those we love wield their emotions like a weapon.


Growing up working with horses helped me with my self confidence. I walked to close to a stud one time and he reached over and took a chunk out of my shoulder. A broom handle across his nose cured that.


----------



## Roller

bandit.45 said:


> Are you a rugger? Boxer?


Did both, preferred rugby - didn't need to be so fit! Also played football (soccer), but obviously less (legal) contact!


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Start doing contact sports again, it will change your mindset and get the testosterone flowing.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

bandit.45 said:


> Growing up working with horses helped me with my self confidence. I walked to close to a stud one time and he reached over and took a chunk out of my shoulder. A broom handle across his nose cured that.



I typically don't do that degree of handling, but if I had to I would.

My draft horse would bite, throw his shoulders into you, try to ram the top of your head and run over you, anything to show you who is boss. And has drug 5 grown men across a pasture before. Then I got him... 

Later I heard that one of the farriers I was using at the time tell someone when they were freaking that he could do my drafts feet calling my horse "crazy" said in return.... "Not when Ms. Blossom handles him." hee hee... rar!


----------



## bandit.45

Roller said:


> Did both, preferred rugby - didn't need to be so fit! Also played football (soccer), but obviously less (legal) contact!


Okay....

So, you were willing to go toe to toe with gorillas, no pads, no helmets, on slippery wet turf... How many fingers have you broken? Lost teeth? 

And your scared of a pathetic little cheating woman? :scratchhead:


----------



## bandit.45

Blossom Leigh said:


> I typically don't do that degree of handling, but if I had to I would.
> 
> My draft horse would bite, throw his shoulders into you, try to ram the top of your head and run over you, anything to show you who is boss. And has drug 5 grown men across a pasture before. Then I got him...
> 
> Later I heard that one of the farriers I was using at the time tell someone when they were freaking that he could do my drafts feet calling my horse "crazy" said in return.... "Not when Ms. Blossom handles him." hee hee... rar!


Ohhhh. Draft horses. Well, that's a different ballgame. 

In my defense, that was the only time I ever struck a horse out of anger. My dad jumped on me when he found out, but when he hauled me to the doc to get my shoulder wound cleaned and a tetanus shot, he changed his tune. He finally acquiesed and admitted I was right to do so. 

But it did cure that stud of nipping people.

I remember watching old Vaqueros work with horses. Man the Mexican guys were rough with their animals. Wow.


----------



## Roller

bandit.45 said:


> Okay....
> 
> So, you were willing to go toe to toe with gorillas, no pads, no helmets, on slippery wet turf... How many fingers have you broken? Lost teeth?
> 
> And your scared of a pathetic little cheating woman? :scratchhead:


1 finger, 2 collar bones, 1 rib, nose twice, no teeth though oddly!

And, as odd as it sounds, YES I am scared of her!

Same thing isn't it - physical versus emotional. I'm not scared of her having a PA, because with a proven PA I would leave. I have enough respect to expect physical exclusivity in a relationship. It's emotional sh!t that I struggle with, to the point that I cannot convince myself that I have any right to expect emotional exclusivity.

I'm sure that all sounds strange, but I'm being honest.

I'm conscious that some members will feel that we are going around in circles and there is nothing they can see that hasn't been said before. Maybe they are right, but I assure you I'm reading everything and hoping that something will pull that trigger in the machine-gun in my head, and keep it pressed long enough!


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Roller, it is a slow process and no one expects you to change over night from a mouse to a racoon, just kidding. 

Just doing different things, and just believing something different slowly reretrains your brain.


----------



## bandit.45

Roller said:


> 1 finger, 2 collar bones, 1 rib, nose twice, no teeth though oddly!
> 
> And, as odd as it sounds, YES I am scared of her!
> 
> Same thing isn't it - physical versus emotional. I'm not scared of her having a PA, because with a proven PA I would leave. I have enough respect to expect physical exclusivity in a relationship. It's emotional sh!t that I struggle with, to the point that I cannot convince myself that I have any right to expect emotional exclusivity.
> 
> I'm sure that all sounds strange, but I'm being honest.
> 
> I'm conscious that some members will feel that we are going around in circles and there is nothing they can see that hasn't been said before. Maybe they are right, but I assure you I'm reading everything and hoping that something will pull that trigger in the machine-gun in my head, and keep it pressed long enough!


It would not be hard to prove she's been sleeping around. You're just scared to do so. 

You know it would hurt to confirm it. Indeed it would. But it would also strengthen your resolve. You have to stop fearing the unknown.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Ah, we crave attachment, but through that attachment is what causes the most harm. 

Attachment makes us vulnerable, and to counter this we need the skills to detach. 

I view life differently in this case.

Everything is temperory. Happiness is only a state, sad is only a state, children grow and move on, marriages may last, but someone will perish before the other, all we have in life is temporary.


----------



## Roller

bandit.45 said:


> It would not be hard to prove she's been sleeping around. You're just scared to do so.
> 
> You know it would hurt to confirm it. Indeed it would. But it would also strengthen your resolve. You have to stop fearing the unknown.


What scares me more is asking around and being wrong (or being right but lied to). What if I were wrong?


----------



## Mr.Fisty

You shouldn't live in fear, it keeps you in an artificial shell of your own making. Making mistakes, and learning from it, is a sign of a growing person.


----------



## bandit.45

Roller said:


> What scares me more is asking around and being wrong (or being right but lied to). What if I were wrong?


Look up Weightlifter's threads. He's sort of the go-to spy/sleuth master. Lots of good tips and ideas of hacking into her phone, computer and doing your own recon work. He can tell you how to do it in a way you won't get caught.


----------



## turnera

Roller said:


> Because I'm a codependent. That's not an excuse, it's a bloody pain in the ass!!
> 
> The instant I try to end it, my World fills with fear, guilt, almost a physical reaction. I've tried to describe it several times, but I cannot.
> 
> The best I've got is to say that i can clearly see the future - without her, but have NO IDEA how to get there. Regardless of how many people give me directions, offer me maps and SatNavs, I'm unable to follow their directions or accept their offer for the maps/SatNavs. If however, they offered to drive me there, then I'd hop in and be thankful for the ride.
> 
> I can absolutely see your point, and it's exactly what I'd advise someone else asking for an opinion.......but.....


Is there someone in your life - dad, uncle, friend - who can be your 'sponsor' and help keep you on track to move on?

Also, how about for your first step, you just stop communicating, period? Just don't answer her texts.


----------



## bandit.45

Mr.Fisty said:


> You shouldn't live in fear, it keeps you in an artificial shell of your own making. Making mistakes, and learning from it, is a sign of a growing person.


Sounds like he's socially isolated too. Not good.


----------



## Roller

bandit.45 said:


> Look up Weightlifter's threads. He's sort of the go-to spy/sleuth master. Lots of good tips and ideas of hacking into her phone, computer and doing your own recon work. He can tell you how to do it in a way you won't get caught.


Thanks, been there, done that. Pretty good at it by now. 

That's why I know that there have defo been plenty of EAs and "some" physical stuff, but not enough to blow my cover and tell her how I know.

One of the things that several people have said is to not show that I know anything until I have everything I need, otherwise you blow the chance of finding it.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Can someone take your phone and answer for you, and when your not working, and taking care of the kids, to stop you from contacting. Get a third person. 

Eventually your addiction to her will break.


----------



## Roller

turnera said:


> Is there someone in your life - dad, uncle, friend - who can be your 'sponsor' and help keep you on track to move on?
> 
> Also, how about for your first step, you just stop communicating, period? Just don't answer her texts.


My (male) boss is a great help and very much an alpha male. I broke down in front of him today. He appreciates that it's very difficult for me, but like most people cannot understand why I don't value myself enough to do anything about it.

At the moment I can feel the pressure in my head building from the pressure to keep explaining to him why I don't leave. Basically my head is fighting trying to passify her and him at the same time! Maybe not all a bad thing!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

It is harder to enforce emotional psychological boundaries, but they need a boundary just as much if not MORE so than physical.

It dawned on me in my 30's that my parents had SHREDDED my psychological boundaries and I had to learn to find the walls to my psychological self and learn to defend it. There are resources to help you learn to construct those walls.

For instance. It is no longer ok for my H to tower over me with the intent of intimidation. I will look at him sternly put my finger in his face and tell him straight up. "It is not ok for you to be staring at me in silence and you are too close. I need for you to move away, right now."

He got the point. I just wont put up with it anymore. You treat me with reasonable behavior or your a$$ is out of here.


----------



## Roller

bandit.45 said:


> Sounds like he's socially isolated too. Not good.


Yes. I've made myself socially isolated to stop her from using my friends to punish me. For example, my best friend (male) has a bit of a womanising history - therefore "he's a bad influence on me". 

I've killed my FB, twitter, etc so that I cannot say the wrong thing or "like" the wrong thing! Also I now cannot see her FB or my kids FB!

I've removed "ME" to be codependent on her! That's the stupid thing......I can see what I've created, but cannot undo it easily!

Sorry, this must be so frustrating for everyone!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Roller said:


> Yes. I've made myself socially isolated to stop her from using my friends to punish me. For example, my best friend (male) has a bit of a womanising history - therefore "he's a bad influence on me".
> 
> I've killed my FB, twitter, etc so that I cannot say the wrong thing or "like" the wrong thing! Also I now cannot see her FB or my kids FB!
> 
> I've removed "ME" to be codependent on her! That's the stupid thing......I can see what I've created, but cannot undo it easily!
> 
> Sorry, this must be so frustrating for everyone!


You need to reverse that pronto

Two of the best things I ever did was break the silence on the abuse AND expand my own circle of friends.


----------



## Q tip

Have some hobbies. Different ones. Head for the gym. Many folks find release there. You'll get into a rhythm of showing up and working out. Sweat it out. Hang out at the club cafe if they have one. Get a trainer. 

Challenge your boundaries.


----------



## bandit.45

Too bad you have kids. But if you divorce her she will just get them anyway. The British legal system encourages women to fvck over their husbands.


----------



## turnera

Roller said:


> Yes. I've made myself socially isolated to stop her from using my friends to punish me. For example, my best friend (male) has a bit of a womanising history - therefore "he's a bad influence on me".
> 
> I've killed my FB, twitter, etc so that I cannot say the wrong thing or "like" the wrong thing! Also I now cannot see her FB or my kids FB!
> 
> I've removed "ME" to be codependent on her! That's the stupid thing......I can see what I've created, but cannot undo it easily!
> 
> Sorry, this must be so frustrating for everyone!


Well, you know what to do then, don't you? 

Time to open FB and twitter back up. Time to call your best friend up and reconnect.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

And when your wife reacts... its on her.

Just like when I told my son the other day that would couldn't go to Ijump after school because we had to go home and take care of things there, he said "You are hurting my feelings by telling me no." and he started to cry I said... "Not my problem" 

BECAUSE I had said it very reasonably, very loving and he had been taken to the carnival the night before. Thusly.. his reaction was on him, not me. I told him so and guess what... his tears dried up and he became calm and happy.

Let her own her own reaction. You need to choose to stop owning it. It doesn't belong to you. Psychological wall #1 - You ONLY own your own reactions.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Well, at least you learn you should be independent.

With strong boundaries, you will be less influence by people. 

Hopefully your future post will be, I am getting there.


----------



## Roller

bandit.45 said:


> Too bad you have kids. But if you divorce her she will just get them anyway. The British legal system encourages women to fvck over their husbands.


Totally agree, I love my boys, would never change it, however it gives her a massive weapon against me. As does any wife over any husband in the UK. It's total bull....


----------



## vellocet

Roller said:


> Yes. I've made myself socially isolated to stop her from using my friends to punish me. For example, my best friend (male) has a bit of a womanising history - therefore "he's a bad influence on me".


Oh no no no. She doesn't get to pull that junk with you. She's got nothing to say about anyone being a bad influence on you given her character. She doesn't get to think that you somehow are like her.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

I just advise someone to make a list.

Goals in ways to improve your life. 

Make small goals as well as large one.

Tackle them one at a time.

These accomplishments will breed confidence. 

Think of the satisfaction you will feel.


----------



## bandit.45

Roller said:


> Totally agree, I love my boys, would never change it, however it gives her a massive weapon against me. As does any wife over any husband in the UK. It's total bull....


Well...until you and about a half million British men stand up and press Parliment for change, then nothing will get better. And if Parliment won't act, then it's time to go Guy Faulks on their asses. 

If a bunch of tree hugging bleeding hearts can get fox hunting outlawed in England, just think of what a 500,000 pissed off alienated fathers could do?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Roller... learn to observe your wife's reaction 

Resist absorbing it.

Learn to say to yourself "hmmm, how interesting"

but remain detached as you learn to be yourself...


----------



## Roller

Blossom Leigh said:


> Roller... learn to observe your wife's reaction
> 
> Resist absorbing it.
> 
> Learn to say to yourself "hmmm, how interesting"
> 
> but remain detached as you learn to be yourself...


I promise you that is exactly what I'm trying to do. Emotionally detach myself from her. It scares me senseless though because what then? What when I'm no longer emotionally attached to her, but still living with her and still (legally) married to her, how do I bring myself to move on? I know, in theory it should be easy by then, but I'm afraid of becoming emotionally attached again.

I suppose I'm telling myself that I need to go through "all the pain in one go" whereas I'm also thinking it'll be easier to do "small steps until I'm strong enough to jump" but fearing that if I do so, I'll never "jump".

Boils down to lack of confidence I think.


----------



## bandit.45

Roller said:


> I promise you that is exactly what I'm trying to do. Emotionally detach myself from her. It scares me senseless though because what then? What when I'm no longer emotionally attached to her, but still living with her and still (legally) married to her, how do I bring myself to move on? I know, in theory it should be easy by then, but I'm afraid of becoming emotionally attached again.
> 
> I suppose I'm telling myself that I need to go through "all the pain in one go" whereas I'm also thinking it'll be easier to do "small steps until I'm strong enough to jump" but fearing that if I do so, I'll never "jump".
> 
> Boils down to lack of confidence I think.


What is the living arrangement? Do you still sleep together? Does she ever initiate sex with you? Does she talk to you? Or are you just roommates?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Roller said:


> I promise you that is exactly what I'm trying to do. Emotionally detach myself from her. It scares me senseless though because what then? What when I'm no longer emotionally attached to her, but still living with her and still (legally) married to her, how do I bring myself to move on? I know, in theory it should be easy by then, but I'm afraid of becoming emotionally attached again.
> 
> I suppose I'm telling myself that I need to go through "all the pain in one go" whereas I'm also thinking it'll be easier to do "small steps until I'm strong enough to jump" but fearing that if I do so, I'll never "jump".
> 
> Boils down to lack of confidence I think.


Once you create your new structure of what you will no longer tolerate it becomes your framework to lean on... It also becomes your own personal forward motion as you hone those skills whether she is in the picture or not. You become a new you... regardless of her and it is structured on those cornerstones of what you will no longer tolerate.


----------



## Roller

bandit.45 said:


> What is the living arrangement? Do you still sleep together? Does she ever initiate sex with you? Does she talk to you? Or are you just roommates?


We do still sleep together, I don't think we've ever not shared the same bed (apart from when one of us is not home obviously - me with work, or her on her girly nights/weekends away).

She hardly ever initiates sex (now or before things were bard - if I can remember that far back)! When she does initiate it, it's just enough for her to say that she "started it" and then it's over to me. If I initiate it (which I'm simply not doing at the moment), then 90% of the time she'll do very little in return, occasionally I'll get some foreplay back, but again, only the minimum!

In all the time I've been with her, she's performed oral on me less than 5 times and never what I'd call a "full session" if you follow my drift! I'll go down for ages, do everything I can, but very rarely will she let herself go. Either I'm awful, or she just isn't willing to let me make her cum - that would mean I'm good at something and/or she lost control!

So, plenty of red flags I know, but for me, sex is not a massive part of a relationship. It's important but not the be-all-and-end-all. I'd rather be in a sex-less marriage than a love-less marriage for example.

Problem is that she's very outwardly sexual - all the flirting and innuendo, etc. It makes me think that it must be me that turns her off. And then there's that thing where she makes it either sound like a "job" - you have to give out occasionally when you're married "it's only fair to the guy" type of thing. Or, even worse is the feeling that I should be grateful - as if I'm punching above my weight. It's horrible.


----------



## bandit.45

I couldn't live like this.


----------



## Roller

bandit.45 said:


> I couldn't live like this.


I don't think it's possible to "live" like this, I just "exist".


----------



## bandit.45

Unbelievable.


----------



## TRy

Roller said:


> That's why I know that there have defo been plenty of EAs and "some" physical stuff, but not enough to blow my cover and tell her how I know.
> 
> One of the things that several people have said is to not show that I know anything until I have everything I need, otherwise you blow the chance of finding it.


 What you do know is that your wife is dating other men that she is emotionally involved with, and that this dating includes "physical stuff" that may or may not include intercourse. What more do you really need to know? Although the odds are high that as an adult this dating includes intercourse, dating and getting physical with other men is cheating with or without intercourse being involved. 

Since you lack the courage to confront her face to face, deal with her cheating another way. As the sole breadwinner you actually have a lot of things that you can do to deal with her cheating. 

Stop funding her cheating. You do this by transferring without warning all money into an account that has only your name on it. Tell her that you will be paying all of the bills from now on, and that you will do the shopping with her to get food and such. Also without warning, cancel her spouse cards on all cards that have your name on it. Tell her that you make all of the money and that it is your right to handle the money now that she no longer acts like a wife that you can trust. When she complains, tell her that she needs to fund her dating by getting a job. Tell that the children are old enough that she is no longer needed by them as a stay at home mom, and that she can take some of the time and energy that she use on her dates to start carrying some of her own weight. If she does not like it tell her that she can file for divorce, and the judge will tell her that she needs to get a job. You can take these actions without having to talk to her, and leave when she gets in your face.


----------



## turnera

Roller said:


> I promise you that is exactly what I'm trying to do. Emotionally detach myself from her. It scares me senseless though because what then? What when I'm no longer emotionally attached to her, but still living with her and still (legally) married to her, how do I bring myself to move on? I know, in theory it should be easy by then, but I'm afraid of becoming emotionally attached again.
> 
> I suppose I'm telling myself that I need to go through "all the pain in one go" whereas I'm also thinking it'll be easier to do "small steps until I'm strong enough to jump" but fearing that if I do so, I'll never "jump".
> 
> Boils down to lack of confidence I think.


Have you read lifescript's thread yet?


----------



## bandit.45

TRy said:


> What you do know is that your wife is dating other men that she is emotionally involved with, and that this dating includes "physical stuff" that may or may not include intercourse. What more do you really need to know? Although the odds are high that as an adult this dating includes intercourse, dating and getting physical with other men is cheating with or without intercourse being involved.
> 
> Since you lack the courage to confront her face to face, deal with her cheating another way. As the sole breadwinner you actually have a lot of things that you can do to deal with her cheating.
> 
> Stop funding her cheating. You do this by transferring without warning all money into an account that has only your name on it. Tell her that you will be paying all of the bills from now on, and that you will do the shopping with her to get food and such. Also without warning, cancel her spouse cards on all cards that have your name on it. Tell her that you make all of the money and that it is your right to handle the money now that she no longer acts like a wife that you can trust. When she complains, tell her that she needs to fund her dating by getting a job. Tell that the children are old enough that she is no longer needed by them as a stay at home mom, and that she can take some of the time and energy that she use on her dates to start carrying some of her own weight. If she does not like it tell her that she can file for divorce, and the judge will tell her that she needs to get a job. You can take these actions without having to talk to her, and leave when she gets in your face.


British judge won't tell her d!ck. British judge will reward her. He'll order Roller to pay her alimony and child support, and if Roller's lucky he might get to see those boys once a month. He'll also be ordered to move out of their flat/ house. The man will be living in poverty while his wh0re ex lives it up at his expense.


----------



## turnera

Roller said:


> Problem is that she's very outwardly sexual - all the flirting and innuendo, etc. It makes me think that it must be me that turns her off.


It IS you. How many ways do we have to tell you that beta males turn women off? Beta males' wives often cheat. Beta males wives grow to detest their husbands - for being beta!

Did you read NMMNG? Have you done anything to change what you found in that book? It has nothing at all to do with her; it's all you - regaining your alpha self is all about you, and no one else. You can work on that all by yourself. Have you started that process?


----------



## TRy

bandit.45 said:


> British judge won't tell her d!ck. British judge will reward her. He'll order Roller to pay her alimony and child support, and if Roller's lucky he might get to see those boys once a month. He'll also be ordered to move out of their flat/ house. The man will be living in poverty while his wh0re ex lives it up at his expense.


 I have a friend that got a UK divorce, and they told the wife that alimony was being determined by the judge with the assumption that she would be getting a job, regardless of if she decided to do so. That being said, he needs to consult with a legal expert on this matter today. Hopefully he will learn that it is not a bleak as you paint it.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

You pay to much atention to her. Try going out. 

As far as your concern, that piece of paper that says that you are married is just paper.

Your not even in a relationship. 

Go out with your family or friends and have a good time.

You sitting around and lamenting is only making yourself a victim.

I don't think your sons want to see you like that. 

Look into your boys and tell yourself that you will be strong. 

Live life as you are divorced. 

In all but name you are.

Pick up sports agin, go drinking with friends, take your boys to see and hav a family together. 

Your sole happiness does not lie with her. 

Does doing things with your sons make you happy? 

If that is a yes, then congrats, you are happy without her.


----------



## Roller

turnera said:


> It IS you. How many ways do we have to tell you that beta males turn women off? Beta males' wives often cheat. Beta males wives grow to detest their husbands - for being beta!
> 
> Did you read NMMNG? Have you done anything to change what you found in that book? It has nothing at all to do with her; it's all you - regaining your alpha self is all about you, and no one else. You can work on that all by yourself. Have you started that process?


I have read it, yes. I get what you are saying, but changing is not exactly a fast process, nor is it easy. Furthermore I resent the fact that I need to change from being a nice (decent) man to be a not-so-nice guy. I appreciate it's the appearance that needs to change more than anything, but you'll see where I'm coming from.

Please don't think I don't value your comment, I do, but I can't help but be resentful, even angry at the fact that being a "nice guy" sets me up to take a daily kick-in......for being exactly what I was taught to be - nice!

I can't change the world and accept that it's up to me to change........I'm just pissed about that!


----------



## Roller

Mr.Fisty said:


> You pay to much atention to her. Try going out.
> 
> As far as your concern, that piece of paper that says that you are married is just paper.
> 
> Your not even in a relationship.
> 
> Go out with your family or friends and have a good time.
> 
> You sitting around and lamenting is only making yourself a victim.
> 
> I don't think your sons want to see you like that.
> 
> Look into your boys and tell yourself that you will be strong.
> 
> Live life as you are divorced.
> 
> In all but name you are.
> 
> Pick up sports agin, go drinking with friends, take your boys to see and hav a family together.
> 
> Your sole happiness does not lie with her.
> 
> Does doing things with your sons make you happy?
> 
> If that is a yes, then congrats, you are happy without her.


I love spending time with my kids, and they love it to. I think that's what I need to do more, essentially cut her out of the "good times". Maybe what I should focus on is doing things with the kids when she's out with the girls. Make her make a choice to be with the girls or with her family.

I'm not really into drinking and "just going out for the sake of it", and besides I've lost contact with most of my drinking friends, so even more time for the boys


----------



## bandit.45

Roller said:


> I have read it, yes. I get what you are saying, but changing is not exactly a fast process, nor is it easy. Furthermore I resent the fact that I need to change from being a nice (decent) man to be a not-so-nice guy. I appreciate it's the appearance that needs to change more than anything, but you'll see where I'm coming from.


No no, you're missing the point. 

Turnera is telling you that YOU CAN BE BOTH! 

We're all telling you that.

You can be a man who is fair, compassionate, emotionally available, kind, thoughtful, generous, helpful and honest. Those things you have in abundance. YOU DONT HAVE TO GIVE THOSE TRAITS UP! You CAN add the following to that list ...

Being steady, being rock solid, being resolute, being unwilling to take sh!t from anyone man or woman, honorable, steadfast, defending those he loves, standing up for principles, having integrity, willing to walk away from those who would abuse him or take advantage of him...you think that these positive latter traits are mutually exclusive of the former? 

Roller...you drank the coolaide long ago brother. Time to regurgitate that sh!t. 

There was a great line from the movie "Rob Roy". Liam Neeson's sons asked him what "honor" was. He said "Honor is a gift a man gives to himself." 

No one can take a man's honor. He has to give it away. Roller, aren't you sick of giving your honor away daily to this sad pathetic woman?


----------



## bandit.45

Roller said:


> I love spending time with my kids, and they love it to. I think that's what I need to do more, essentially cut her out of the "good times". Maybe what I should focus on is doing things with the kids when she's out with the girls. Make her make a choice to be with the girls or with her family.
> 
> I'm not really into drinking and "just going out for the sake of it", and besides I've lost contact with most of my drinking friends, so even more time for the boys


That is a great idea. Do it! Often, and every time she goes out. Pretty soon she'll start feeling left out. you will get to bond with your sons, and they will gravitate to you. 

You don't think your sons know what is going on? They know the score Roller. You have not been a good role model for them. Not at all.


----------



## Roller

bandit.45 said:


> No no, you're missing the point.
> 
> Turnera is telling you that YOU CAN BE BOTH!
> 
> We're all telling you that.
> 
> You can be a man who is fair, compassionate, emotionally available, kind, thoughtful, generous, helpful and honest. Those things you have in abundance. YOU DONT HAVE TO GIVE THOSE TRAITS UP! You CAN add the following to that list ...
> 
> Being steady, being rock solid, being resolute, being unwilling to take sh!t from anyone man or woman, honorable, steadfast, defending those he loves, standing up for principles, having integrity, willing to walk away from those who would abuse him or take advantage of him...you think that these positive latter traits are mutually exclusive of the former?
> 
> Roller...you drank the coolaide long ago brother. Time to regurgitate that sh!t.
> 
> There was a great line from the movie "Rob Roy". Liam Neeson's sons asked him what "honor" was. He said "Honor is a gift a man gives to himself."
> 
> No one can take a man's honor. He has to give it away. Roller, aren't you sick of giving your honor away daily to this sad pathetic woman?


Perfectly said, thank you. I'm going to sleep on those words tonight. Honestly, thank you very much. Just need to work out what "coolaide" is first 

"aren't you sick of giving your honor away daily to this sad pathetic woman?" YES.


----------



## bandit.45

Roller said:


> Perfectly said, thank you. I'm going to sleep on those words tonight. Honestly, thank you very much. Just need to work out what "coolaide" is first
> 
> "aren't you sick of giving your honor away daily to this sad pathetic woman?" YES.


Jim Jones? 

Guyana? 

He killed his cult followers by getting them to drink poisoned coolaide.


----------



## TRy

bandit.45 said:


> Jim Jones?
> 
> Guyana?
> 
> He killed his cult followers by getting them to drink poisoned coolaide.


 Not just themselves but they had their children drink the poisoned Kool-Aide too. BTW the misspell is what could have thrown the OP off.


----------



## Forest

Roller said:


> We do still sleep together, I don't think we've ever not shared the same bed (apart from when one of us is not home obviously - me with work, or her on her girly nights/weekends away).
> 
> She hardly ever initiates sex (now or before things were bard - if I can remember that far back)! When she does initiate it, it's just enough for her to say that she "started it" and then it's over to me. If I initiate it (which I'm simply not doing at the moment), then 90% of the time she'll do very little in return, occasionally I'll get some foreplay back, but again, only the minimum!
> 
> In all the time I've been with her, she's performed oral on me less than 5 times and never what I'd call a "full session" if you follow my drift! I'll go down for ages, do everything I can, but very rarely will she let herself go. Either I'm awful, or she just isn't willing to let me make her cum - that would mean I'm good at something and/or she lost control!
> 
> So, plenty of red flags I know, but for me, sex is not a massive part of a relationship. It's important but not the be-all-and-end-all. I'd rather be in a sex-less marriage than a love-less marriage for example.
> 
> Problem is that she's very outwardly sexual - all the flirting and innuendo, etc. It makes me think that it must be me that turns her off. And then there's that thing where she makes it either sound like a "job" - you have to give out occasionally when you're married "it's only fair to the guy" type of thing. Or, even worse is the feeling that I should be grateful - as if I'm punching above my weight. It's horrible.





bandit.45 said:


> I couldn't live like this.


I normally don't want to delve into the whole sex thing with people, but I just read your post about her new "grooming", etc.

How to put this? Something is not right. If you've been together this long, and got together at a young age, how is it you don't see the wild sex vixen come out in her?

Specifically, in regard to the oral situation: does she not regularly get to the "give me that!" stage? Hopefully other men will back me up (and women won't be offended) when I say that this has always seemed to be a certain expected plateau of a good sexual encounter.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Roller said:


> For example, *my best friend (male) has a bit of a womanising history *- therefore *"he's a bad influence on me". *





Roller said:


> That's why *I know that there have defo been plenty of EAs and "some" physical stuff,* but not enough to blow my cover and tell her how I know.


Everyone is giving you great advice and I have nothing to add that hasn't already been stated. So, I just wanted to point out her hypocrisy.


----------



## turnera

Roller said:


> I have read it, yes. I get what you are saying, but changing is not exactly a fast process, nor is it easy. Furthermore I resent the fact that I need to change from being a nice (decent) man to be a not-so-nice guy. I appreciate it's the appearance that needs to change more than anything, but you'll see where I'm coming from.
> 
> Please don't think I don't value your comment, I do, but I can't help but be resentful, even angry at the fact that being a "nice guy" sets me up to take a daily kick-in......for being exactly what I was taught to be - nice!
> 
> I can't change the world and accept that it's up to me to change........I'm just pissed about that!


Bullshyte. You didn't read the book in the right frame of mind. NMMNG has NOTHING to do with being a "not-so-nice guy." Nothing whatsoever. It has everything to do with being a guy who knows what he deserves and, when being disrespected, stands up for himself. 

Period.

It IS up to you to change. I don't know if you've always been a pushover or if you just became one when you became afraid to lose her. But somewhere along the line you forgot who you were. A person with value, who would be ok if a crappy woman left him, because he knew he deserved - and would get - better.


----------



## bandit.45

turnera said:


> bullshyte. You didn't read the book in the right frame of mind. Nmmng has nothing to do with being a "not-so-nice guy." nothing whatsoever. It has everything to do with being a guy who knows what he deserves and, when being disrespected, stands up for himself.
> 
> Period.
> 
> It is up to you to change. I don't know if you've always been a pushover or if you just became one when you became afraid to lose her. But somewhere along the line you forgot who you were. A person with value, who would be ok if a crappy woman left him, because he knew he deserved - and would get - better.


whhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaack!!!


----------



## IIJokerII

bandit.45 said:


> whhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaack!!!


Double True!!!


----------



## Roller

Forest said:


> I normally don't want to delve into the whole sex thing with people, but I just read your post about her new "grooming", etc.
> 
> How to put this? Something is not right. If you've been together this long, and got together at a young age, how is it you don't see the wild sex vixen come out in her?
> 
> Specifically, in regard to the oral situation: does she not regularly get to the "give me that!" stage? Hopefully other men will back me up (and women won't be offended) when I say that this has always seemed to be a certain expected plateau of a good sexual encounter.


I'm not sure what the "give me that" situation is - I'm obviously not experienced in that, which isn't a surprise! She's given me maybe 3-4 BJs in our entire relationship, but never lasting more than a couple of mins.

Essentially she wants to be "made love to" nearly every time and resents when occasionally (very, very occasionally) I want to be "craved for/wanted" in return.

The net result is that I often feel we've gone through the motions to make me happy/content.....which ironically is the exact opposite of what I feel. After sex, I almost always feel regretful (that I've allowed her to think I'm happy with her/with the relationship) and/or guilty (that I've used her) and/or unfulfilled (because it was essentially one-way, meaningless, love-less).


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Roller said:


> I'm not sure what the "give me that" situation is - I'm obviously not experienced in that, which isn't a surprise! She's given me maybe 3-4 BJs in our entire relationship, but never lasting more than a couple of mins.
> 
> Essentially she wants to be "made love to" nearly every time and resents when occasionally (very, very occasionally) I want to be "craved for/wanted" in return.
> 
> The net result is that I often feel we've gone through the motions to make me happy/content.....which ironically is the exact opposite of what I feel. After sex, I almost always feel regretful (that I've allowed her to think I'm happy with her/with the relationship) and/or guilty (that I've used her) and/or unfulfilled (because it was essentially one-way, meaningless, love-less).


Then stop. Tell her. Do not lie and fake it that you are happy with the sex.

Do you ever turn her down?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Oh, and the "give me that" moment Forest is referring to is when a woman is so freaking aroused by you that she is clamouring for you to penetrate her with your c***, anywhere and right now or I'm going to die moment.


----------



## DayOne

An entire lumber yard of 2x4's isn't going to help this 'guy'. Until roller finds it within himself to be a man, stand up for himslef, and break himself away from her, we're all pi££ing into the wind. It's depressing reading his posts. 

He rejected NMMNG BECAUSE he saw himself in there and it scared the shiat out of him. 

He's not ready. And i personally don't think he will be, for a long. long time.


----------



## Roller

Blossom Leigh said:


> Then stop. Tell her. Do not lie and fake it that you are happy with the sex.
> 
> Do you ever turn her down?


Very rarely, 1. being a man, I normally want it (it would be a lie to claim otherwise) and 2. I fear the reaction of rejecting her - on the basis she so rarely instigates it (and that instigating is something I absolutely crave), IF things work-out between us, I don't want it (my rejection) to be used to justify her not instigating in the future.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Learned helplessness.

Break that cycle for sure.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Roller said:


> Very rarely, 1. being a man, I normally want it (it would be a lie to claim otherwise) and 2. I fear the reaction of rejecting her - on the basis she so rarely instigates it (and that instigating is something I absolutely crave), IF things work-out between us, I don't want it (my rejection) to be used to justify her not instigating in the future.


Fear of abandonment

I used to do the same thing, so in all these years of marriage I never said no. It is still very hard for me to say no, but because my H is who he is I can say it now, but is still extremely rare.

I initiate a lot and was almost the sole initiator in my former marriage.

This imbalance is rooted in codependency because your fear of abandonment is so strong.


----------



## Roller

Right, this is where I'm at. 

I'm trying to remove myself emotionally from the absolute attachment to her. I'm scared of doing anything physical (like sleeping in a different bed, telling her I'm detaching, etc), so rather than do "nothing", and continue live with the daily emotional war going on between various parts of my brain (common sense and logic versus reminiscing, fear and optimism), I need to do "something". Detaching emotionally is that "something" that I feel is achievable right now.

So, lets start there - do you think that this is a step worth taking, or is it just not enough to count as third step (I've put down accepting my codependency and her narcissism as step one, and acknowledging at least EAs as a second step)?

Doing the 180 I've had to fake not being interested in what she does, every bit of me wants to ask her about her nights out, etc. That 180, at this point in time, is not quite working for me.....or at least I'm not working for it! What "detaching with love," as my counselor puts it, is is the act of honestly removing yourself from the emotional ties to the other person, so that rather than faking to not care, you actually don't care. You care for their well-being, etc, but you don't care of the effect on you because it has no (or should not have any) effect on you. I appreciate that this makes it sound harder rather than easier, but, and this will be strange for someone who's not codependent, it removes the need to lie (and therefore be filed with guilt and fear of being found-out). 

So, I've decided to put this on TAM so that hopefully it'll make me stick to it! Like telling people you are about to diet!


----------



## Roller

Just after my last post I saw this and thought it was appropriate and shocking in terms of timing!


----------



## turnera

IMO, what you really need to do is PHYSICALLY be doing different things other than hanging around her. Two benefits - one, she sees you not needing to hang around her, makes you more attractive to her; and two, it helps you see you CAN live and enjoy things and be alive without it being attached to whether she chooses you. You need that confidence. Start getting out, at least once a week, for a few hours. Play ball, go to a movie, watch football at a friend's house. You need more male time.


----------



## BobSimmons

Roller said:


> Right, this is where I'm at.
> 
> I'm trying to remove myself emotionally from the absolute attachment to her. I'm scared of doing anything physical (like sleeping in a different bed, telling her I'm detaching, etc), so rather than do "nothing", and continue live with the daily emotional war going on between various parts of my brain (common sense and logic versus reminiscing, fear and optimism), I need to do "something". Detaching emotionally is that "something" that I feel is achievable right now.
> 
> So, lets start there - do you think that this is a step worth taking, or is it just not enough to count as third step (I've put down accepting my codependency and her narcissism as step one, and acknowledging at least EAs as a second step)?
> 
> Doing the 180 I've had to fake not being interested in what she does, every bit of me wants to ask her about her nights out, etc. That 180, at this point in time, is not quite working for me.....or at least I'm not working for it! What "detaching with love," as my counselor puts it, is is the act of honestly removing yourself from the emotional ties to the other person, so that rather than faking to not care, you actually don't care. You care for their well-being, etc, but you don't care of the effect on you because it has no (or should not have any) effect on you. I appreciate that this makes it sound harder rather than easier, but, and this will be strange for someone who's not codependent, it removes the need to lie (and therefore be filed with guilt and fear of being found-out).
> 
> So,* I've decided to put this on TAM so that hopefully it'll make me stick to it!* Like telling people you are about to diet!


Why put it on TAM? You seem to have done zero, want to do zero. What other advice can anyone else give unless you help yourself?


----------



## Roller

BobSimmons said:


> Why put it on TAM? You seem to have done zero, want to do zero. What other advice can anyone else give unless you help yourself?


You're allowed your opinion, and I guess I asked for it. I guess you'd consider it zero then!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> IMO, what you really need to do is PHYSICALLY be doing different things other than hanging around her. Two benefits - one, she sees you not needing to hang around her, makes you more attractive to her; and two, it helps you see you CAN live and enjoy things and be alive without it being attached to whether she chooses you. You need that confidence. Start getting out, at least once a week, for a few hours. Play ball, go to a movie, watch football at a friend's house. You need more male time.


I totally agree with this... as you learn to build and defend your psychological boundaries SOMETIMES that means you HAVE to produce a PHYSICAL representation of what is happening on the inside. Detach internally AND externally. When my H wasn't "getting" my requests for psychological boundaries, I made them physical for my own protection, but that move made him "get it" finally.


----------



## IIJokerII

Roller said:


> You're allowed your opinion, and I guess I asked for it. I guess you'd consider it zero then!


Roller, I know all too well the inner conflict of tearing away the very object of your pain and joy, an indivisible feeling. Right now, you, like me and countless others is trapped in Limbo, a prison we can leave from anytime we want yet we keep ourselves in check until we know we want to leave, usually if there is no other choice in the matter. 

Your redundant since you are unsure, what is the truth, what is she really feelings, what do you want.....Questions upon questions with always a multiple choice answer, never a clean cut one that most people can gravitate to. Add in the mixture of feelings, past, present and future and you just get to a point where "Hey, it is just another day" and let the moment blur right into the next, and before you know it a ridiculous amount of time has passed and you are left wondering where the hell are you at in life. 

In all relationships based on trusts there is always a chance for betrayal and nobody ever expects their mate to kick them in the balls in this manner but when it does happen it is blanketed by ignorance and unacceptability. He/SHe would never do that is usually the first reaction, followed by why me then, well, it's anybody's guess. The people here are not trying to be a55holes, they are simply telling you like it is, with good intentions, to assist you in your crisis. Although I can see that they also have a frustration about this since the posts in CWI is akin to a Scooby Doo episode, same story, same result, and more than likely same ending. Just pull off the mask already!!!!

Dude, you need to break free, your prison without bars, climb thru the tunnel of sh1t ala Andy Dufrane and taste your freedom. In time, the stink of this decaying marriage will wear off, and you will grieve, and mourn the loss. But unlike the death of a loved one or friend you will look back with glee that it is over. Fight your fear, your hold ups, press Ctrl+Alt+Delete, lock the Computer, and get started. 

Take it back!!!! Today!!!


----------



## turnera

Roller, start small. I know how scary it is. For 20 years, I had been 'trained' to never go anywhere my H didn't want to go; I'd get 'punished' when I got back, so I eventually just gave up all friends, family, and activities, to keep from dealing with his displeasure. I became too scared to even say "I'm going to the grocery store." I had no identity any more. When I was in IC, for 3 years, she tried to get me to do just ONE thing - to tell my H I was going to go to the mall on a Saturday afternoon, by myself. I was too scared to do it? What would he do? I never could do it. 

Several years later, I finally gained the courage and started doing things on my own. I can't TELL you how much difference it made to me, psychologically. I started believing in myself, trusting myself, knowing I'd be ok by myself.

Please, just pick one thing to start doing differently, alone, on your own, that has nothing to do with her. 

What one thing will you choose?


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Turnera is right. Small steps. 

Pick a path and follow through with it to the end.

Right now your straddling two paths and your stuck.

Your logical side says it is over.

Your emotional side says keep trying, and if I do more and keep loving her, she will love me in return.

As the paths are diverging, and the distance is becoming great, you made yourself stuck.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

If you decide to remain stuck, at least do something that will make you happy. There are marriages out there where the spouse ignore each other.

True, your children will suffer.

They will grow up in a emotionally broken home, and they might end up like your wife or you.

Lets face it, you two are the role model that they have.

Or, you can send them to therapy, because your children's identity is being formed now, and they should learn what healthy behavior should be. 

Right now, neither of you is the parent they need.

There is more to being a parent than needs like food and shelter.

They need a stable environment to be in, to grow into healthy people.


----------



## Roller

turnera said:


> Roller, start small. I know how scary it is. For 20 years, I had been 'trained' to never go anywhere my H didn't want to go; I'd get 'punished' when I got back, so I eventually just gave up all friends, family, and activities, to keep from dealing with his displeasure. I became too scared to even say "I'm going to the grocery store." I had no identity any more. When I was in IC, for 3 years, she tried to get me to do just ONE thing - to tell my H I was going to go to the mall on a Saturday afternoon, by myself. I was too scared to do it? What would he do? I never could do it.
> 
> Several years later, I finally gained the courage and started doing things on my own. I can't TELL you how much difference it made to me, psychologically. I started believing in myself, trusting myself, knowing I'd be ok by myself.
> 
> Please, just pick one thing to start doing differently, alone, on your own, that has nothing to do with her.
> 
> What one thing will you choose?


Thanks for that reply. Knowing you've been through that makes me read your posts very differently. Thanks, truly appreciate the encouragement.

I've already mentioned that I will do more with the boys (particularly if she's out with the girls). The other obvious is a gym session after work.


----------



## turnera

Nope. I want you to do something with other men.


----------



## DayOne

turnera said:


> Nope. I want you to do something with other men.



Sounds fair. His Wife already does!


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Roller is a victim of abuse from his wife. 

His psyche is battered, and he is somewhat in denial still.

It is the mentality of abused people. 

Fear of the unknown, because it is what they are use too.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Stockholm Syndrome... links in my sig


----------



## Roller

turnera said:


> Nope. I want you to do something with other men.


I'm not lying or exaggerating when I say that I had/have a physical reaction to that reply. A sick feeling in my stomach and a shiver shot through my body. I know how stupid that must sound, but it is the truth.

The reason is thus: 

I go out with the guys

I don't enjoy because throughout my time out I worry about the sh!t I'll get when I go home, unless she txts me non-stop whilst out (I know that I could ignore the txts, but that just makes the worry more)

I go home

I take a load of sh!tty abuse

My going out (regardless if I don't drink, or if it's only for a couple of hours) will be used to justify her going out and doing whatever for hours upon hours. 

So net result is I go out for 2 hours and take a LOAD of abuse for it, she is then justified in going out for a 12-15 hour heavy-drinking session and not expect any sh!t because "I didn't give you any" (even though she will/did)!


PLEASE don't think that I'm saying NO, I will try to think of something that I want to do with other guys (rather than just do something just for the sake of it) and I will do it because I genuinely want to change and I do value your advice and support. I just wanted to explain why the reaction.


----------



## turnera

Roller said:


> I'm not lying or exaggerating when I say that I had/have a physical reaction to that reply. A sick feeling in my stomach and a shiver shot through my body. I know how stupid that must sound, but it is the truth.
> 
> The reason is thus:
> 
> I go out with the guys
> 
> I don't enjoy because throughout my time out I worry about the sh!t I'll get when I go home, unless she txts me non-stop whilst out (I know that I could ignore the txts, but that just makes the worry more)
> 
> I go home
> 
> I take a load of sh!tty abuse
> 
> My going out (regardless if I don't drink, or if it's only for a couple of hours) will be used to justify her going out and doing whatever for hours upon hours.
> 
> So net result is I go out for 2 hours and take a LOAD os abuse for it, she is then justified in going out for a 12-15 hour heavy-drinking session and not expect any sh!t because "I didn't give you any" (even though she will/did)!
> 
> 
> PLEASE don't think that I'm saying NO, I will try to think of something that I want to do with other guys (rather than just do something just for the sake of it) and I will do it because I genuinely want to change and I do value your advice and support. I just wanted to explain why the reaction.


You do realize that you just explained MY story, right? And that I was too scared to do it precisely BECAUSE of the abuse I'd get when I got home? And that my IC - both of them - pushed me VERY HARD to go out ANYWAY so I could regain my strength?

Why do you think we're telling you to do it? Of course you're scared. Of course she's gonna rail at you. THAT is the point at which you will practice your new strength and WALK AWAY from her if she harasses you. THAT'S THE POINT. You HAVE to start doing this or you'll forever be her little slave.

Do it. If she tries to harass you, you say 'I don't deserve this' and turn and leave the room. If she follows you to another room, go to one you can lock the door of. If she still bothers you, leave the house and go for a walk. If she's waiting when you get home to start up again, go sleep at a friend's house or a hotel. If she still does it the next day when you return, HOPEFULLY you'll see how batsh*t crazy she is and understand you can't keep doing this, and tell her you're separating if she doesn't cut it out.

Oh, and what she chooses to do 'in retaliation' is HER business, HER problem.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Blossom Leigh said:


> Stockholm Syndrome... links in my sig



Yep, sounds right.

As neutral parties, we sometimes have better insight.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Does your therapist go into the abuse portion of your relationship?

Your therapist should help you develop the tools you need to escape an abusive relationship.

Have you brought it to your therapist's attention?


----------



## Roller

turnera said:


> You do realize that you just explained MY story, right? And that I was too scared to do it precisely BECAUSE of the abuse I'd get when I got home? And that my IC - both of them - pushed me VERY HARD to go out ANYWAY so I could regain my strength?
> 
> Why do you think we're telling you to do it? Of course you're scared. Of course she's gonna rail at you. THAT is the point at which you will practice your new strength and WALK AWAY from her if she harasses you. THAT'S THE POINT. You HAVE to start doing this or you'll forever be her little slave.
> 
> Do it. If she tries to harass you, you say 'I don't deserve this' and turn and leave the room. If she follows you to another room, go to one you can lock the door of. If she still bothers you, leave the house and go for a walk. If she's waiting when you get home to start up again, go sleep at a friend's house or a hotel. If she still does it the next day when you return, HOPEFULLY you'll see how batsh*t crazy she is and understand you can't keep doing this, and tell her you're separating if she doesn't cut it out.
> 
> Oh, and what she chooses to do 'in retaliation' is HER business, HER problem.


Thanks. Doing this (or trying to do it) has to be in conjunction with my detaching from her emotionally. I believe that her primary driver in giving me this abuse is to try and prevent me giving her the same when she goes out. There are two issues with this, firstly I don't give her sh!t, I just ask her about her day/night, etc because I genuinely want to know what happened (after all, we used to tell eachother everything) - she inevitably lies, I catch her out, ask her why lie and then all hell breaks lose for days! Secondly, if I do give her sh!t as explained above, it's justified - she was out for hours, got v. drunk and lied!

It's only a secondary consideration (or a handy by-product if you will) that she gets to be abusive to me and keep me in my submissive place!

I know you know this already, so I don't know why I'm telling you that.

I suppose I'm scared of not being in a position to expect her to tell me about her time "out with the girls". If she doesn't tell me, then I don't catch her out. If I don't catch her out, then we don't argue about it. If we don't argue about it, our relationship is "OK" isn't it?! That's what she'll think anyway.

Oddly I kind-of feel that she needs to feel that our relationship is sh!t, because if/when I come out with "i'm leaving" it won't be a surprise to her. And if it isn't a surprise, it won't hurt her as much as if she thought everything was good.

I know, I know that loads of you will say "why do you care about hurting her, she doesn't care about you", but that's the problem with being a "nice guy" who is codependent.

I PROMISE that I will DO IT. Just wanted to brain dump my feelings in the hope that possibly I can help others to go through this at some point in the future.


----------



## Roller

Mr.Fisty said:


> Does your therapist go into the abuse portion of your relationship?
> 
> Your therapist should help you develop the tools you need to escape an abusive relationship.
> 
> Have you brought it to your therapist's attention?


Yes, we discuss it regularly.

My therapist was originally selected (by me) because she was a relationship specialist. Originally I wanted to work on my relationship (on my own) and it's morphed to what it is now.

To be fair, I think I'm removed from what she specialises in, but because she knows the whole back-story I kinda stick with it because I genuinely value her opinion, advise and honesty. SHE IS VERY GOOD.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

I think the first step is the hardest. We make everything worse than it is, but when we take the first step, it wasn't bad as we thought, and we slowly take another.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Roller said:


> Thanks. Doing this (or trying to do it) has to be in conjunction with my detaching from her emotionally. I believe that her primary driver in giving me this abuse is to try and prevent me giving her the same when she goes out. There are two issues with this, firstly I don't give her sh!t, I just ask her about her day/night, etc because I genuinely want to know what happened (after all, we used to tell eachother everything) - she inevitably lies, I catch her out, ask her why lie and then all hell breaks lose for days! Secondly, if I do give her sh!t as explained above, it's justified - she was out for hours, got v. drunk and lied!
> 
> It's only a secondary consideration (or a handy by-product if you will) that she gets to be abusive to me and keep me in my submissive place!
> 
> I know you know this already, so I don't know why I'm telling you that.
> 
> I suppose I'm scared of not being in a position to expect her to tell me about her time "out with the girls". If she doesn't tell me, then I don't catch her out. If I don't catch her out, then we don't argue about it. If we don't argue about it, our relationship is "OK" isn't it?! That's what she'll think anyway.
> 
> Oddly I kind-of feel that she needs to feel that our relationship is sh!t, because if/when I come out with "i'm leaving" it won't be a surprise to her. And if it isn't a surprise, it won't hurt her as much as if she thought everything was good.
> 
> I know, I know that loads of you will say "why do you care about hurting her, she doesn't care about you", but that's the problem with being a "nice guy" who is codependent.
> 
> I PROMISE that I will DO IT. Just wanted to brain dump my feelings in the hope that possibly I can help others to go through this at some point in the future.


My H used to try to redirect to me.. I dont' engage that anymore... I keep the discussion on his behavior. 

"You can redirect all you want to, I am not changing my focus."

I'm not discussing me, I am discussing you.


----------



## turnera

Roller said:


> Thanks. Doing this (or trying to do it) has to be in conjunction with my detaching from her emotionally.


I've been thinking about this for awhile. I've decided I'm gonna call you out on it. 

Explain why going out with the guys requires you to be detached from her?

If you told your IC that, she would say bullshyte. She would say FAKE IT TIL YOU MAKE IT. In other words, you have to MAKE THE CHANGE, before you can FEEL the change. That's a very common strategy with therapists, for a simple reason: it works.

MAKING the change, no matter your motives or how you feel about your wife, is going to affect you psychologically. It's going to make you stronger, it's going to show you the world isn't going to fall apart, it'll show you that even if she DOES tear you a new one for daring to go out with your friends, you didn't die, you didn't get hit by a truck, you didn't lose a limb, your family didn't kick you out of the family, you didn't lose your job...if anything, your wife got mad at you. Or she tried to reclaim control by going out herself. What else is new? SHE DOES THAT ANYWAY!

You need to DO the change first. Attachment has nothing to do with it. 

Believe me, I know it's scary. I was shaking in my boots the first time I said I was going out. But I forced myself to face that fear and just do it. And he was fine with it! It was all in my head! 

And every time after that, it got easier and easier, until I can now just say 'I'm going out' and think (almost) nothing of it. 

Just do it.


----------



## carmen ohio

Roller,

I find it hard to believe that a man could be as terrified of another person -- and a woman at that -- as you claim to be of your wife and yet be able otherwise to function in society (were a decent athlete, currently holds down a job, etc.). However, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not making this up and offer a few suggestions.

You are getting lots of good advice on TAM/CWI but seem incapable of acting on it despite claiming to want to. If true, then I suspect that your problem will require medical or psychological intervention.

A few people have questioned your testosterone levels. Have you had them checked? If not, you really should because the degree of timidity that you are displaying is inconsistent with that of a healthy human male.

You _'admit'_ that you are codependent. Your symptoms (if they are to be believed) seem much more severe than that of a codependent. Someone mentioned Stockholm Syndrome. Have you discussed this with your counselor or the possibility that you are suffering from PTSD?

If none of having any bearing on your problem, I suggest you submit to psychological testing. Perhaps you're suffering from clinical depression or some other mental affliction.

Finally, there are many self-help resources available for just about every problem one could have. Do a simple web search of _'overcoming fear'_ and then check out some of the websites/books you find.

Like I said, I have my doubts about the genuineness of this thread but, if you are telling the truth, I hope these suggestions help and I wish you the best.


----------



## turnera

carmen ohio said:


> Roller,
> 
> I find it hard to believe that a man could be as terrified of another person -- and a woman at that -- as you claim to be of your wife and yet be able otherwise to function in society


Why? It's the exact same thing as any other victim of emotional abuse. I AM terrified of my husband, although I know he won't really hurt me. It's all psychological crap, and I know it, but I STILL jump up from the couch when I hear him driving up the driveway. If you haven't been in the position of being mentally controlled, you really have no idea what it's like. You KNOW you're being ridiculous, but you can't help yourself.


----------



## Roller

carmen ohio said:


> Roller,
> 
> I find it hard to believe that a man could be as terrified of another person -- and a woman at that -- as you claim to be of your wife and yet be able otherwise to function in society (were a decent athlete, currently holds down a job, etc.). However, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not making this up and offer a few suggestions.
> 
> You are getting lots of good advice on TAM/CWI but seem incapable of acting on it despite claiming to want to. If true, then I suspect that your problem will require medical or psychological intervention.
> 
> A few people have questioned your testosterone levels. Have you had them checked? If not, you really should because the degree of timidity that you are displaying is inconsistent with that of a healthy human male.
> 
> You _'admit'_ that you are codependent. Your symptoms (if they are to be believed) seem much more severe than that of a codependent. Someone mentioned Stockholm Syndrome. Have you discussed this with your counselor or the possibility that you are suffering from PTSD?
> 
> If none of having any bearing on your problem, I suggest you submit to psychological testing. Perhaps you're suffering from clinical depression or some other mental affliction.
> 
> Finally, there are many self-help resources available for just about every problem one could have. Do a simple web search of _'overcoming fear'_ and then check out some of the websites/books you find.
> 
> Like I said, I have my doubts about the genuineness of this thread but, if you are telling the truth, I hope these suggestions help and I wish you the best.


Thank you for your comments. I assure you that none of this is being made up. I was accused of that early in the thread, and, as I said then, I cannot understand why someone would make something like this up. For what purpose?! You are entitled to your doubts, and there is nothing I can say to change that. It's not something I can really prove.

I'm frustrated that people find it hard to believe that a man can be scared of a woman. I'm big (over 6' and around 240lbs), she is petite! It's not a physical thing. As I've confirmed earlier, my counselor has identified potential PTSD and possible Stockholm Syndrome. When someone systematically emotionally abuses you for years and years, your size means absolutely nothing, your sex means absolutely nothing.

I've been bought-up to show nothing but love and respect towards women. Never lift a hand, they are the fairer sex, look after and protect them, etc, etc. 

I have not had my testosterone levels checked, I don't think it's a problem, because I'd say that I do have a fairly good sex drive (just don't get to use it) - but I will call with the doctor to ask him what he thinks. Not even sure where to look for "psychological testing", but again I'll ask the doctor and take it from there.

I'm a successful guy professionally, I manage a load of staff every day and make good money. I have the respect of the staff (although I'm accept that I'm seen as a gently-gently boss rather than a bully), I've had to discipline, fire and hire loads of the years. I also have the respect of my customer's and clients.

Basically I long for a nice, easy life at home. My work life is so demanding (and has been forever) and stressful with responsibility and accountability. I don't need that sh!t at home and rather than deal with it, I've always let it go. She's accumulated more and more confidence/control/etc over the years and the net result may well now be Stockholm Syndrome.

As I say, I do value your feedback, I understand the frustrations (because nobody can be more frustrated than me!) but I assure you it's real. Thanks again.


----------



## Roller

turnera said:


> Why? It's the exact same thing as any other victim of emotional abuse. I AM terrified of my husband, although I know he won't really hurt me. It's all psychological crap, and I know it, but I STILL jump up from the couch when I hear him driving up the driveway. If you haven't been in the position of being mentally controlled, you really have no idea what it's like. You KNOW you're being ridiculous, but you can't help yourself.


Exactly. Totally agree. I'm really upset by that comment, but I do understand the overall frustration.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

carmen ohio said:


> Roller,
> 
> I find it hard to believe that a man could be as terrified of another person -- *and a woman at that* -- as you claim to be of your wife and yet be able otherwise to function in society (were a decent athlete, currently holds down a job, etc.).


Abused people, men included, function in society EVERY day. 
You feel this way because American society has taught people men cannot be abused, raped or stalked because they are so strong. It's always interesting to me when people make this comment. There's an entire degree of fear and ridicule a man receives for not "handling his business."


----------



## Blossom Leigh

carmen ohio said:


> Roller,
> 
> I find it hard to believe that a man could be as terrified of another person -- and a woman at that -- as you claim to be of your wife and yet be able otherwise to function in society (were a decent athlete, currently holds down a job, etc.). However, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not making this up and offer a few suggestions.
> 
> You are getting lots of good advice on TAM/CWI but seem incapable of acting on it despite claiming to want to. If true, then I suspect that your problem will require medical or psychological intervention.
> 
> A few people have questioned your testosterone levels. Have you had them checked? If not, you really should because the degree of timidity that you are displaying is inconsistent with that of a healthy human male.
> 
> You _'admit'_ that you are codependent. Your symptoms (if they are to be believed) seem much more severe than that of a codependent. Someone mentioned Stockholm Syndrome. Have you discussed this with your counselor or the possibility that you are suffering from PTSD?
> 
> If none of having any bearing on your problem, I suggest you submit to psychological testing. Perhaps you're suffering from clinical depression or some other mental affliction.
> 
> Finally, there are many self-help resources available for just about every problem one could have. Do a simple web search of _'overcoming fear'_ and then check out some of the websites/books you find.
> 
> Like I said, I have my doubts about the genuineness of this thread but, if you are telling the truth, I hope these suggestions help and I wish you the best.


Carmen, 

There have been times I have been puzzled by your comments and now I know why. Its just a disconnect on just how bad abuse can get and its effects on man or woman when it has been long term. There are a few of us that I have seen on TAM that have suffered long term abuse of all kinds. Me, Turnera, Roller, Navy 3, Blonde, Very Hurt, Garrett, Big Mama,etc... there are more, but these come to mind. We are all at various stages of recovery. It takes YEARS to break free. It is due to the fact that long term abuse not only locks you in a mental prison of fear, but also shreds every piece of identity you ever had. That is not rebuilt over night. And for those of us born into abuse, that takes even longer since our identity is entangled with our abuser's identity from infant forward. So, just to caution you that it is VERY real, Very complex to break free from and takes a tremendous amount of courage to do the simple things that come easy to other people. 

Navy3 is one of the BEST examples on here that I have seen to come from someone so incredibly beat down and to now be living on her own and face that new life every day. So proud of her. This is not the level of "oh, just buy a book on overcoming fear"... no, this is WAY more intense and complex than just that. So, you are right that it takes professional help as well as books, support systems, etc. It took me years to wake up to the fact that I was being severely abused by my mother. After I had that awareness it took me another four years to make my final stand to her and stop the abuse. 

I see Roller strengthening. None of us know when he will hit that final straw and say enough is enough. We all hope it is sooner than later. But, he will hit it rest assured. His brain is already working out the problem. It will never go back to the way it was. 

Roller... just you remaining engaged in this thread trying to absorb what is being said and apply it, gain courage and move forward is to be commended. Many would have left a thread a long time ago. Just make SURE to discover the areas that you hide behind to stay "safe" because it is a false safety. You want true safety and just so you know, when you pursue true safety, its gonna scare the begeezus out of you at first, but the payoff is GRANDE!


----------



## Mr.Fisty

The only thing I know of psychology, is taking 2 semesters before I changed my degree.

People forget that we are animals, true we have higher brain functions, but we can be trained and conditioned.

Roller has been conditioned to be afraid of his wife.

Don't forget in his country, the child automatically goes to the mom, plus maintenence laws are not up to date yet.

There are men in the U.k. paying alimony, even though their ex is re-married and her new income is a lot higher than his.

He has to break his conditioning, and play smart at the same time.


----------



## Roller

phillybeffandswiss said:


> There's an entire degree of fear and ridicule a man receives for not "handling his business."


:iagree:


----------



## Roller

Thanks guys. 

Haven't txt her once in two days, hardly spoken, but when I have it's been "normal" and "to the point" - not sad, not angry, in fact verging on happy/content. 

When I've spoken to the boys, I've been more upbeat and positive than normal and engaged in what they've been up to, etc - I'm sure she's overheard some of that.

Slept in the same bed, but with plenty of space between us.

Asked her once about her latest night out (regretted it immediately) but she side-stepped answering me. I walked away, pretending "no big deal" and didn't ask her again!

I'm caring less, but it's only a couple of days.


----------



## Roller

turnera said:


> I've been thinking about this for awhile. I've decided I'm gonna call you out on it.
> 
> Explain why going out with the guys requires you to be detached from her?
> 
> If you told your IC that, she would say bullshyte. She would say FAKE IT TIL YOU MAKE IT. In other words, you have to MAKE THE CHANGE, before you can FEEL the change. That's a very common strategy with therapists, for a simple reason: it works.
> 
> MAKING the change, no matter your motives or how you feel about your wife, is going to affect you psychologically. It's going to make you stronger, it's going to show you the world isn't going to fall apart, it'll show you that even if she DOES tear you a new one for daring to go out with your friends, you didn't die, you didn't get hit by a truck, you didn't lose a limb, your family didn't kick you out of the family, you didn't lose your job...if anything, your wife got mad at you. Or she tried to reclaim control by going out herself. What else is new? SHE DOES THAT ANYWAY!
> 
> You need to DO the change first. Attachment has nothing to do with it.
> 
> Believe me, I know it's scary. I was shaking in my boots the first time I said I was going out. But I forced myself to face that fear and just do it. And he was fine with it! It was all in my head!
> 
> And every time after that, it got easier and easier, until I can now just say 'I'm going out' and think (almost) nothing of it.
> 
> Just do it.


Sorry for delay, your post kinda got lost amognst the other recent ones! Apologies.

My going out with the guys would be a lot *easier* if I were detached from here, because I'd be more relaxed. I suppose the reaction is what scares me most, so what you're doing is asking me to confront the worst bit of the whole situation first-up, rather than build-up the courage to do it.

It creates a physical reaction in me when I think about going out with my friends and drink. I occasionally go our with my work colleagues (maybe 2-3 times a year) for a meal and a few drinks. I don't drink on those occasions, I make my excuses and drive. To be fair, I don't get too much abuse, but I'm made aware that she "could" give me abuse, and it's very much her choosing to not!! By not giving me sh!t at that time, she is "allowed" to store-that-one-up for future sh!tiness!!

God, I feel so frustrated with myself typing this. I can see how damn stupid it all is!!

Funny thing is, as I detach more, the more content I feel in the relationship and that scares me. It scares me that I'll be stuck here forever - because if we don't argue, the relationship is "OK" isn't it?! (I know the answer - just telling you how my mind works)! By detaching, we don't argue, but we don't act married either!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I think it takes time to understand what detaching looks like. You love HER, but not her abusive reactions or her poor behavioral choices. Its those things you don't allow to have control over you and is where boundaries come into play. 

For instance,
One day, my H got upset at me before our Vegas trip. He over reacted to a normal mention of money surrounding a trip like that, no ill will on my part whatsoever, so I recognized immediately that he was triggered. He flipped out on me, yelled at me, gaslit me, stormed out of my office, then later blew up my phone. I strategically detached in that day. And I started beating my truth drum. My truth that day was "there was no hidden intent nor malintent" as well as, "and right now your overreaction is not ok, destructive." "Until you can speak in a calm rational manner, I am not dicussing this." Blowing up my phone "you are now harrassing me and I am asking you to stop, I am hanging up the phone now." Got home and he was STILL in a funk, so I by then had gained happiness in addition to calm, kind and firm and intended to keep it, so I did not stay in the house with his foul mood, he tried to talk about it and I told him that until he was fully calm I was not discussing this issue and scooped up our child and headed to the pool to remain in that state of well being. So, I remained in relationship with him, but *detached from owning responsibility for his destructive reactions * AND protected myself from further destructive choices, just remained myself and used boundaries and distance where needed. "I know you are upset, but right now this treatment of me is not ok, I'm not engaging you until you choose different." By the time I got back home he had gained control of himself and was back in a rational frame of mind to discuss the issue and the conversation went GREAT.

You are detaching from responsibility of her poor choices.


----------



## kenmoore14217

Hey Roller, keep detaching. Inch by inch or millimeter by millimeter, slow and easy will get it done. And as you detach your ambiguity will increase exponentially. And then, FREEDOM!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Boundaries Not Walls


----------



## carmen ohio

Blossom Leigh said:


> Carmen,
> 
> There have been times I have been puzzled by your comments and now I know why. Its just a disconnect on just how bad abuse can get and its effects on man or woman when it has been long term. There are a few of us that I have seen on TAM that have suffered long term abuse of all kinds. Me, Turnera, Roller, Navy 3, Blonde, Very Hurt, Garrett, Big Mama,etc... there are more, but these come to mind. We are all at various stages of recovery. It takes YEARS to break free. It is due to the fact that long term abuse not only locks you in a mental prison of fear, but also shreds every piece of identity you ever had. That is not rebuilt over night. And for those of us born into abuse, that takes even longer since our identity is entangled with our abuser's identity from infant forward. So, just to caution you that it is VERY real, Very complex to break free from and takes a tremendous amount of courage to do the simple things that come easy to other people.
> 
> Navy3 is one of the BEST examples on here that I have seen to come from someone so incredibly beat down and to now be living on her own and face that new life every day. So proud of her. This is not the level of "oh, just buy a book on overcoming fear"... no, this is WAY more intense and complex than just that. So, you are right that it takes professional help as well as books, support systems, etc. It took me years to wake up to the fact that I was being severely abused by my mother. After I had that awareness it took me another four years to make my final stand to her and stop the abuse.
> 
> I see Roller strengthening. None of us know when he will hit that final straw and say enough is enough. We all hope it is sooner than later. But, he will hit it rest assured. His brain is already working out the problem. It will never go back to the way it was.
> 
> Roller... just you remaining engaged in this thread trying to absorb what is being said and apply it, gain courage and move forward is to be commended. Many would have left a thread a long time ago. Just make SURE to discover the areas that you hide behind to stay "safe" because it is a false safety. You want true safety and just so you know, when you pursue true safety, its gonna scare the begeezus out of you at first, but the payoff is GRANDE!


Blossom Leigh,

Do not presume that I know nothing about abuse or have never had to overcome it. You have your opinion of what ails Roller and what is the best way for him to regain his self-respect and independence, and I have mine. I haven't seen anything in your posts that lead me to believe that yours is better.

One thing I know is that most abuse would not happen if the victim refused to allow it to happen. Unless the abuser has some physical control over the victim (as, for example, a prison guard over a convict or a parent over a small child), the victim always has the option to walk away. The question then becomes, why doesn't he or she?

Roller has been given lots of good advice but nevertheless remains enthralled by his abusive wife. Why? I suggested the problem may be medical or the result of a serious psychological problem. I don't think that's such a bad piece of advice.

Ultimately, no one ceases to be abused unless he or she stands up for himself. Roller isn't there yet but I am hopeful that eventually he will be. I happen to think that molly-coddling him is a less effective help strategy than challenging him to try to figure out why he puts up with his wife's crap. If he can do that, he can correct it, and there is no reason why that process needs to take years.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

carmen ohio said:


> Blossom Leigh,
> 
> Do not presume that I know nothing about abuse or have never had to overcome it. You have your opinion of what ails Roller and what is the best way for him to regain his self-respect and independence, and I have mine. I haven't seen anything in your posts that lead me to believe that yours is better.
> 
> One thing I know is that most abuse would not happen if the victim refused to allow it to happen. Unless the abuser has some physical control over the victim (as, for example, a prison guard over a convict or a parent over a small child), the victim always has the option to walk away. The question then becomes, why doesn't he or she?
> 
> Roller has been given lots of good advice but nevertheless remains enthralled by his abusive wife. Why? I suggested the problem may be medical or the result of a serious psychological problem. I don't think that's such a bad piece of advice.
> 
> Ultimately, no one ceases to be abused unless he or she stands up for himself. Roller isn't there yet but I am hopeful that eventually he will be. I happen to think that molly-coddling him is a less effective help strategy than challenging him to try to figure out why he puts up with his wife's crap. If he can do that, he can correct it, and there is no reason why that process needs to take years.


For some it does take years.


I question your personal exposure to long term abuse and the personal experience to over come it, especially since you questioned the OP's integrity of his claims. I have seen men that scared of a woman. Garrett here on TAM was such a poster. My brother is another.

It is my opinion, there is a disconnect that you feel a man would not find himself in such a situation with a woman. No, it doesn't "have to take years." My point was that it typically does.

I could care less about your opinion about my advice. I lived it straight up and share what worked for me personally. People can take it or leave it as it continues to evolve. Not lookin' for your approval.


----------



## carmen ohio

Blossom Leigh said:


> . . . *I could care less about your opinion about my advice.* I lived it straight up and share what worked for me personally. People can take it or leave it as it continues to evolve. *Not lookin' for your approval.*


Yah, well, _you_ questioned _my_ advice. _I_ just responded to _your_ disapproval of what _I_ said.

Guess you don't believe that turnabout is fair play.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Criticize me whenever you feel like it Darlin'

I wear my big Girl panties EVERY day.

Yes, I called out your tactic of questioning his veracity because he is a man.

I saw flaw in that perspective and put voice to it.


----------



## tom67

Blossom Leigh said:


> Criticize me whenever you feel like it Darlin'
> 
> I wear my big Girl panties EVERY day.
> 
> Yes, I called out your tactic of questioning his veracity because he is a man.
> 
> I saw flaw in that perspective and put voice to it.


Ooh cat fight

It is the chicken or the egg argument.
After being abused so long he did not know any other way so when I and others told him what he needed to do and well was a doormat it's like huh?
Roller is making progress albeit slow but it's his path.
It could take years for him depends how much he wants to heal.


----------



## tom67

But what Carmen said have your T levels checked.
How is your overall health?


----------



## Roller

tom67 said:


> But what Carmen said have your T levels checked.
> How is your overall health?


I will, my health is OK physically as far as I can tell. Mentally, I'm scared that I'm beyond being normal anymore. That really does scare me - that my scars/worries/etc will never be "normalised" again. I think it's self-feeding in that I often convince myself that I need to stay in the relationship I'm in because "better the devil you know" than take a risk of not being able to love/trust another in the future.

I'm not scared of being alone, I often think that I'm a loaner and would be better off that way, but I am scared of not being able to be friends with a woman because my WW has convinced me that "I cannot be just friends"!!


----------



## Roller

Blossom and Carmen, please don't argue on my part. I respect both your opinions and advice and am grateful of your time.

Only issues I have is that it certainly is no less likely for a woman to emotionally/verbally abuse a guy than vice versa. 

In fact, because we men are taught from a very young age to respect woman, I think it's more likely for men to be the subject of ridicule, belittling and general abuse from their partners. 

How can I react? If I shout I'm "aggressive" and "scary", if I walk away I hurt and appear to not care, but even then I'm followed and taunted.

The other is that you think my story is unbelievable. I understand that it may be questionable, some others have voiced that opinion way-back at the start of this thread - what I don't understand is why those concerns are based on a guy being abused by a woman.

Like I say, it's not important and I value your input and general attempt at kicking my ass!

Again, thank you both. Lets just put it down to constructive differences


----------



## turnera

Roller said:


> I will, my health is OK physically as far as I can tell. Mentally, I'm scared that I'm beyond being normal anymore. That really does scare me - that my scars/worries/etc will never be "normalised" again. I think it's self-feeding in that I often convince myself that I need to stay in the relationship I'm in because "better the devil you know" than take a risk of not being able to love/trust another in the future.
> 
> I'm not scared of being alone, I often think that I'm a loaner and would be better off that way, but I am scared of not being able to be friends with a woman because my WW has convinced me that "I cannot be just friends"!!


That's what therapy is for.


----------



## turnera

Roller said:


> but even then I'm followed and taunted.


She can't do that if you leave the house and go for a walk or a drive. You ALLOW this, Roller. Stop allowing it. You don't even have to stand up to her. JUST LEAVE THE ROOM.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

have you tried re-affirming yourself.

Make a list of your good qualities that you possess.

Like.
"I am a good father."
"I provide well for my family."
"I care about others well beings."
"I have value as a person."

State your values that you want in a relationship.
Respect.
Understanding.
Someone who is supportive.

Create boundaries.

No cheating.
No verbal put downs.

Until you place value in yourself, you can't get out of the hole your in.

Keep giving yourself positive reenforcement.

This will slowly enable you to gain mental strength, because you realize that you do have value, and there are people out there that do cherish those values about you.

It may be slow, but you can't change over night.

Your reworking your identity, and retraining your brain to view yourself differently.


----------



## Q tip

Roller said:


> Blossom and Carmen, please don't argue on my part. I respect both your opinions and advice and am grateful of your time.
> 
> Only issues I have is that it certainly is no less likely for a woman to emotionally/verbally abuse a guy than vice versa.
> 
> In fact, because we men are taught from a very young age to respect woman, I think it's more likely for men to be the subject of ridicule, belittling and general abuse from their partners.
> 
> How can I react? If I shout I'm "aggressive" and "scary", if I walk away I hurt and appear to not care, but even then I'm followed and taunted.
> 
> The other is that you think my story is unbelievable. I understand that it may be questionable, some others have voiced that opinion way-back at the start of this thread - what I don't understand is why those concerns are based on a guy being abused by a woman.
> 
> Like I say, it's not important and I value your input and general attempt at kicking my ass!
> 
> Again, thank you both. Lets just put it down to constructive differences


Damn. You gotta read MMSLP. Several times. Everything you've been taught about women is wrong. You've been incorrectly trained from a young age, so it may seem wrong. But it ain't. Read the book. 

May help you dump the W and date younger hotter women that behave themselves. You'll know what to look for then. And filter the trash before they make a big mess.

*Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011, Athol Kay. He's got a website too.


----------



## Q tip

tom67 said:


> Ooh cat fight
> 
> It is the chicken or the egg argument.
> After being abused so long he did not know any other way so when I and others told him what he needed to do and well was a doormat it's like huh?
> Roller is making progress albeit slow but it's his path.
> It could take years for him depends how much he wants to heal.


Chicken and the egg. You know who came first? The hen did...
:rofl:


----------



## carmen ohio

Roller said:


> *Blossom and Carmen, please don't argue on my part.* I respect both your opinions and advice and am grateful of your time.
> 
> *Only issues I have is that it certainly is no less likely for a woman to emotionally/verbally abuse a guy than vice versa. *
> 
> In fact, because we men are taught from a very young age to respect woman, I think it's more likely for men to be the subject of ridicule, belittling and general abuse from their partners.
> 
> *How can I react? If I shout I'm "aggressive" and "scary", if I walk away I hurt and appear to not care, but even then I'm followed and taunted.*
> 
> The other is that you think my story is unbelievable. I understand that it may be questionable, some others have voiced that opinion way-back at the start of this thread - what I don't understand is why those concerns are based on a guy being abused by a woman.
> 
> Like I say, it's not important and I value your input and general attempt at kicking my ass!
> 
> Again, thank you both. Lets just put it down to constructive differences


Roller,

This post is a perfect example of your problem -- an excessive fear of conflict and inability to stand up for yourself.

You know neither Blossom Leigh nor me and and owe us nothing, yet you blame yourself in effect for our disagreement (_"please don't argue on my part"_). Trust me, I'm an attorney by profession and can more than take care of myself here, and BL has proven that she is also perfectly capable of holding her own in an internet disagreement.

While, in the larger scheme of things, this is no big deal, I hope you can see how you overreacted, because I think it should give you an idea of where you are going wrong in your thinking, both in your marriage and I suspect in general.

I don't recall if anybody has recommended yet that you read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. Robert Glover but, if not, please read it (here's a link to an on-line version: https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf). Also, please do some research on anxious/fearful personality disorders (here's somewhere to start: List of Personality Disorders | Symptoms, Signs of Personality Disorders).

While you are quite right that woman verbally and physically abuse men in our society almost as much as men abuse them, you need to realize that there is no reason to put up with such abuse. As turnera pointed out, abuse cannot happen if you refuse to allow it to happen. You can prevent it by simply walking away from it. If the abuse continues you after you have made it clear by your words and actions that you want it to stop, then you have to take affirmative steps to end it. That may require a physical separation from the abuser for an extended period of time and, in some cases, permanently. Again, the point is that you can prevent abuse if you want to.

BTW, another example of your excessive fearfulness is your concern that you would _"appear not to care"_ if you walked away from someone who is abusing you. For crying out loud, Roller, if someone is abusing you, why the h*ll should you care whether they think you don't care for them at the moment you walk away to stop the abuse! (Pardon my profanity but I don't no how else to emphasize the point).

I believe the evidence is compelling that you have very serious psychological problems that will require the assistance of qualified professionals to correct. Please get help, not only for your sake but for that of your children. No one should or needs to go through life afraid of other people, especially his spouse.

I realize that you came here for help with your marriage but I believe you will not improve your marriage, or be able to make a reasonable judgment as to what is required to fix it, until you begin to regain your self-confidence and independence.


----------



## lordmayhem

Q tip said:


> Damn. You gotta read MMSLP. Several times. Everything you've been taught about women is wrong. You've been incorrectly trained from a young age, so it may seem wrong. But it ain't. Read the book.
> 
> May help you dump the W and date younger hotter women that behave themselves. You'll know what to look for then. And filter the trash before they make a big mess.
> 
> *Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011, Athol Kay. He's got a website too.


It may not be possible for this person, that it's core personality. Not everyone can change and not everyone can be saved. From his last post, it seems he was trained at a very early age to be a beta. I've seen that in real life too. Hen pecked boys grow up to be hen pecked husbands, and *can fulfill no other possible role except provider and live in baby sitter*.


----------



## Q tip

lordmayhem said:


> It may not be possible for this person, that it's core personality. Not everyone can change and not everyone can be saved. From his last post, it seems he was trained at a very early age to be a beta. I've seen that in real life too. Hen pecked boys grow up to be hen pecked husbands, and *can fulfill no other possible role except provider and live in baby sitter*.


Yah, but hoping he will learn he's spent a lifetime being lied to - and get pissed and then wise up. Right now, I smell a beta orbiter. 

He's got a shot at being a happy, confident man if he would shake this nonsense he's been spoon-fed. His thought process is broken. 

OP, start reading and memorizing MMSLP, NMMNG. Learn. It'll be fun for you. Make mistakes, just don't give a crap about it and keep Improving yourself!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

carmen ohio said:


> Roller,
> 
> This post is a perfect example of your problem -- an excessive fear of conflict and inability to stand up for yourself.
> 
> You know neither Blossom Leigh nor me and and owe us nothing, yet you blame yourself in effect for our disagreement (_"please don't argue on my part"_). Trust me, I'm an attorney by profession and can more than take care of myself here, and BL has proven that she is also perfectly capable of holding her own in an internet disagreement.
> 
> While, in the larger scheme of things, this is no big deal, I hope you can see how you overreacted, because I think it should give you an idea of where you are going wrong in your thinking, both in your marriage and I suspect in general.
> 
> I don't recall if anybody has recommended yet that you read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. Robert Glover but, if not, please read it (here's a link to an on-line version: https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf). Also, please do some research on anxious/fearful personality disorders (here's somewhere to start: List of Personality Disorders | Symptoms, Signs of Personality Disorders).
> 
> While you are quite right that woman verbally and physically abuse men in our society almost as much as men abuse them, you need to realize that there is no reason to put up with such abuse. As turnera pointed out, abuse cannot happen if you refuse to allow it to happen. You can prevent it by simply walking away from it. If the abuse continues you after you have made it clear by your words and actions that you want it to stop, then you have to take affirmative steps to end it. That may require a physical separation from the abuser for an extended period of time and, in some cases, permanently. Again, the point is that you can prevent abuse if you want to.
> 
> BTW, another example of your excessive fearfulness is your concern that you would _"appear not to care"_ if you walked away from someone who is abusing you. For crying out loud, Roller, if someone is abusing you, why the h*ll should you care whether they think you don't care for them at the moment you walk away to stop the abuse! (Pardon my profanity but I don't no how else to emphasize the point).
> 
> I believe the evidence is compelling that you have very serious psychological problems that will require the assistance of qualified professionals to correct. Please get help, not only for your sake but for that of your children. No one should or needs to go through life afraid of other people, especially his spouse.
> 
> I realize that you came here for help with your marriage but I believe you will not improve your marriage, or be able to make a reasonable judgment as to what is required to fix it, until you begin to regain your self-confidence and independence.


Now this I can get behind 

And the words "excessive fear of conflict and inability to stand up for yourself" is a GREAT way to describe him.

Roller, it took a long time for me to embrace the idea that I had resources at my disposal to deal with abuse in my life. I was SO conditioned to accept abuse as normal in my life that I didn't "wake up" to it until I was 35 and even then it was a murmur and it took time to put definitions around what I was experiencing under the thumb of my severely narcissistic mother. And further time to stand up and break free at the time. 

In fact I caught wind just yesterday that she has struck again. She refuses to let the rest of my family take Grammy to the beach, when there isn't a reason to refuse it. And dog cursed, threatened, etc etc three of our family members. Now that I'm detached from most of it, it is amazing I survived her AND my step Dad who was violent and has been found towering over me with fists drawn back, decapitated my babydoll's etc. So I can see where people develop excessive conflict avoidance and I am VERY grateful I am where I am today. So your compliment Carmen about me being able to stand up in conflict means a lot to me. For me, that is a valued compliment for sure. It took me almost a decade to develop to this degree of strength. I still have a long way to go, but man am I grateful for where I am today.

I will also tell you Roller, that I put a LOT of hard work in to my recovery. Books, counselors, strong support groups, learning grace under fire, lots of prayer, Bible study, Internet study, and my horsemanship studies that started it all for me. You HAVE to apply yourself. You won't have anyway around it. I'm cheering you on


----------



## carmen ohio

lordmayhem said:


> It may not be possible for this person, that it's core personality. Not everyone can change and not everyone can be saved. From his last post, it seems he was trained at a very early age to be a beta. I've seen that in real life too. Hen pecked boys grow up to be hen pecked husbands, and *can fulfill no other possible role except provider and live in baby sitter*.





Q tip said:


> Yah, but hoping he will learn he's spent a lifetime being lied to - and get pissed and then wise up. Right now, I smell a beta orbiter.
> 
> He's got a shot at being a happy, confident man if he would shake this nonsense he's been spoon-fed. His thought process is broken.
> 
> OP, start reading and memorizing MMSLP, NMMNG. Learn. It'll be fun for you. Make mistakes, just don't give a crap about it and keep Improving yourself!


You may be right, lordmayhem, but I agree with Q tip that Roller deserves a chance to become a better man.

Roller, here are a few blogs about being a man in 21st century America and especially about male-female relationships, that may help you get a better handle on where you need to get to in order to escape your mental and emotional shackles (I've tried to give you a cross-section of the so-called _'manosphere'_):

Alpha Game
Dalrock
Dr. Helen
Chateau Heartiste
Married Man Sex Life

Some of the things you will read may surprise you and some may even trouble you (I don't agree with much of what is said on the manosphere) but it will give you a perspective that you need not only to be aware of but to adopt in some measure if you really want to have a successful relationship with a female, be it your wife or someone else.

You've got a long life ahead of you and, if you really want to change, I see no reason why you can't become self-confident and independent. But you have to want it badly and you have to be willing to do things that make you uncomfortable and even take some risks.


----------



## Q tip

First thing. Lose fat, gain muscle. Head to the gym and work out. Inside 3 months you'll start looking and feeling better.

Lift heavy weights. Compound lifting. Simply means barbells and Dumbbells mainly. Less machines. Get a trainer. Start easy and add weight biweekly. You'll start to enjoy the effort. Hit chin-ups with a vengeance. Do 3 sets every day. Do them until you burn out. Rest a bit, next set. Chin-ups will build your pretty muscles. Then dips. Do them until you fail. Push-ups, sit ups. Go for it.

You'll start turning heads. Your Confidence will soar. Get buf and proud. Keep reading. Nice thng is, you can fake it until you make it. Surprise yourself.

And remember, inclined bench press, squats and deadlifts. Without these, you're not working out.

Guess what... You notice shapely fit ladies so duh! Ladies notice buff guys. --- and no, most ladies don't like the Arnold look.


----------



## Roller

lordmayhem said:


> It may not be possible for this person, that it's core personality. Not everyone can change and not everyone can be saved. From his last post, it seems he was trained at a very early age to be a beta. I've seen that in real life too. Hen pecked boys grow up to be hen pecked husbands, and *can fulfill no other possible role except provider and live in baby sitter*.


Hate the term hen pecked, but understand the intent.

Makes sense - the only credit I give myself is that I'm a good provider. As a teenager/young man I never thought I need to be anything else....I say it as my job to be a good provider. I worked my ass off to make a success professionally so that I fulfilled that role. As soon as I worked out that I had achieved that, I started to feel "used up", "an unnecessary husband", "pointless", etc.


----------



## Roller

Sorry for the delay in responding to everyone who's responded recently. I've just read through the latest posts and am very grateful. 

Carmen you make many good points and you've identified something that I recently also saw in myself - I'm TERRIFIED of conflict. I can manage it every day professionally, but go out of my way to avoid it personally.

Blossom, your feedback, personal experience, advice and support is also invaluable.

Q Tip, I'm on it - I promise to use the gym regularly from now to Christmas rather than waiting till the new year and making another broken new year's resolution!

Mr.Fisty - great advice. I will try to convince myself that I'm worth something to MYSELF rather than go through life trying to be worth something to someone else.


----------



## turnera

Re: conflict

My IC had me take a particular situation I was avoiding out of fear of conflict, any situation, and walk through all possible outcomes. Write them out - anything that could possibly happen. And even drill down to get into the weeds.

Like if I was afraid to say no, I don't want to go to that dinner with you (normally I'd just do whatever he told me we needed to do, even if I didn't want to). If I said no...he might pout. He might yell. He might belittle me. He might leave without me. etc.

So, if he pouts...drill down - what then? 
Well, he sits on the couch and pouts. 
And? 
Well, nothing, really, he just pouts and I know he's mad at me.
And? 
Well, nothing really, it eventually just blows over. But I know he's adding it to his 'list' of things I do wrong. 
And? 
Well, nothing, he doesn't act on it, I just know he thinks poorly of me. 
So? Don't you think poorly of him, too?
Well, yeah, but I don't like him having reasons to blame me.
So? What's he gonna do with it?
Well, he might bring it up some time when he's mad.
And?
Well, he'll have a reason.
So? Was it a valid reason? He wanted you to go to a dinner and you didn't want to, and you - as is your right - said no. You did nothing wrong.
Yeah, but HE thinks I did.
And?
Well, ok, I see what you mean. So what? It's ME who is putting this onus on myself, not him.

See how that works? I worked through what I was really feeling, until I got to what I was afraid of. And was able to see that there was really nothing there. And that helped me overcome my fear, and branch out. Life is SO different now, now that I do this and come away knowing I'm doing it to myself and the world isn't going to end if I speak up or say no.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I like Turnera's feedback and I will add to it. I too learned when I was ramping myself up, but ALSO and this is very important... I gained the skills necessary to shut down abuse when it WAS in my face.


----------



## Roller

Blossom Leigh said:


> I like Turnera's feedback and I will add to it. I too learned when I was ramping myself up, but ALSO and this is very important... I gained the skills necessary to shut down abuse when it WAS in my face.


Damn!!!! Sorry Turnera, I should have thanked you as well. I though I had already replied to your latest posts, but then realised, thanks to Blossom that I had not! Sincere apologies.

Absoloutely, walking away from an abuser when she is abusive is something I should do. And, I suppose it is the one thing that is easier for a man. I can outrun her!

Thanks again Turnera.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Roller said:


> Damn!!!! Sorry Turnera, I should have thanked you as well. I though I had already replied to your latest posts, but then realised, thanks to Blossom that I had not! Sincere apologies.
> 
> Absoloutely, walking away from an abuser when she is abusive is something I should do. And, I suppose it is the one thing that is easier for a man. I can outrun her!
> 
> Thanks again Turnera.


Hon, I don't "just" walk away. Not without setting the record straight as I am headed to safety. I am very verbal about what I will not tolerate.


----------



## turnera

Don't thank me. Just change.


----------



## Roller

turnera said:


> Re: conflict
> 
> My IC had me take a particular situation I was avoiding out of fear of conflict, any situation, and walk through all possible outcomes. Write them out - anything that could possibly happen. And even drill down to get into the weeds.
> 
> Like if I was afraid to say no, I don't want to go to that dinner with you (normally I'd just do whatever he told me we needed to do, even if I didn't want to). If I said no...he might pout. He might yell. He might belittle me. He might leave without me. etc.
> 
> So, if he pouts...drill down - what then?
> Well, he sits on the couch and pouts.
> And?
> Well, nothing, really, he just pouts and I know he's mad at me.
> And?
> Well, nothing really, it eventually just blows over. But I know he's adding it to his 'list' of things I do wrong.
> And?
> Well, nothing, he doesn't act on it, I just know he thinks poorly of me.
> So? Don't you think poorly of him, too?
> Well, yeah, but I don't like him having reasons to blame me.
> So? What's he gonna do with it?
> Well, he might bring it up some time when he's mad.
> And?
> Well, he'll have a reason.
> So? Was it a valid reason? He wanted you to go to a dinner and you didn't want to, and you - as is your right - said no. You did nothing wrong.
> Yeah, but HE thinks I did.
> And?
> Well, ok, I see what you mean. So what? It's ME who is putting this onus on myself, not him.
> 
> See how that works? I worked through what I was really feeling, until I got to what I was afraid of. And was able to see that there was really nothing there. And that helped me overcome my fear, and branch out. Life is SO different now, now that I do this and come away knowing I'm doing it to myself and the world isn't going to end if I speak up or say no.


I like what you did there. My boss keeps telling me to do that - to look into why I fear a reaction SO much, even as in the example you provided the "reaction" is actually not a reaction at all, but a fear of it being "stored up" to be used in some future abusive attack.

I always seem to convince myself that I'm just "too tired" to do this preemptive "drilling down" - as if I fear realising at the end of it, there is nothing to logically fear.

The irony is, if there is nothing to fear, then maybe I need to decide for myself that I should walk away from the relationship, but then that's what I fear more than anything. And, before you say, can I bring myself to "drill-down" on that specific fear?! Hell no, not at the moment anyway!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Roller said:


> The irony is, if there is nothing to fear, then maybe I need to decide for myself that I should walk away from the relationship, but then that's what I fear more than anything. And, before you say, can I bring myself to "drill-down" on that specific fear?! Hell no, not at the moment anyway!


Then it is FOO related and definitely needs to be faced soon.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Blossom Leigh said:


> Hon, I don't "just" walk away. Not without setting the record straight as I am headed to safety. I am very verbal about what I will not tolerate.


And sometimes I don't even walk away... just depends on what is going on.


----------



## mr.bunbury

Machiavelli said:


> Roller is in Limeyland. I think if a wife commits adultery in England and it's proved in court, then the wife gets everything and the BH is press ganged into the Royal Navy.


You have no idea how much spot on the mark you are here. I have personally met an ex-british firefighter whose wife was given his home after divorce. Here's the kicker, guess where i met him:
In Aubagne, France where the Headquarters of the French Foreign Legion are. He was out fresh out of his divorce and trying to find an occupation.


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## Q tip

Yep. Work out. Staring today!!!

I got an early start at 5:30am. Feeling great, wife likes the results. So do other ladies, based on their eyeballing me. Wife's not jealous as she knows I'm all hers. 

Get to it. You'll be dating hot younger ones soon, well, depending on what YOU decide. Take care of you.


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## Chaparral

What ever path you choose, your sons are going to follow you.......or your wife. Are you going to accept that?


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## Roller

Chaparral said:


> What ever path you choose, your sons are going to follow you.......or your wife. Are you going to accept that?


Since being part of the TAM family and working with my counsellor, I can assure you that the path I'm working towards is being a stronger, more confident person who has at least some confidence and feeling of self-worth.

I'm happy that I've made more progress in the last month than in total for the past 6-12 months, so, I'm viewing that positively. And, in all honesty, I think the most obvious feedback that there is some "change in the air" is the way the boys have been with me. They seem to be happier in general, but particularly they seem to want to be around me more. One loves gaming and he wants me to spend time gaming with him for example. 

They just seem to treat me more as my own person or "Dad" rather than Mum's deputy!


All that said, tonight (it's already past midnight here) I'm struggling. I cannot stop seeing one of the OM in my mind and feeling absolute hatred towards him! I know that the hatred should be direct at my WW, but hey.......!

Anyway, I'm off to see if I can manage some sleep!

Thanks again guys, your support means so much to me.


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## Blossom Leigh

Proud of you Roller. Anger for ANY of the infidelity is a good sign of moving to more natural reactions instead of delayed or non existent. Good! A good balance is coming.. get some good rest.


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