# A story of poor boundaries?



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

I joined TAM in 2014. At first, I noticed that our intimacy was slipping. I would try to bring it up, but those discussions became difficult. It seemed as if my wife was absolutely uninterested in anything I brought up. I hadn't yet recognized the importance of intimacy in a relationship, so I was apprehensive about bringing it up. TAM helped me with that. As time went on, I noticed intimacy wasn't improving. At about the same time, my wife began saying things that I found incredibly disrespectful. Basically childish insults, or insults directly attacking my values. Any conversations on important topics immediately devolved into defensiveness on her part. 

We went to a couples therapist. By the third session, I was so frustrated that I cancelled. Maybe this was a mistake, but I found myself more upset after leaving, and determined I couldn't go on with it. Also, since my wife told him about her previous sexual abuse, he agreed that we shouldn't talk about intimacy until she could work on it herself. So, I ended up breaking up with his answering machine and enjoying every second of it. 

Amidst all of this, her mothers health began to deteriorate. Her mother has dementia. She quickly deteriorated and now doesn't recognize any family members. Her father was taking care of her mother, but also had a habit of leaving her alone and going to the bar. This had caused a few issues and the kids had to talk to the father a few times. At some point, it seems like everything caught up with her father. It turned out he got a DUI, his house was being foreclosed upon, he hurt his knee and couldn't work. So, when the family found out about the house being in foreclosure, it seemed like it was too late to save it. It was too far along in the process to just pay it off. But, both me and my brother in law seemed to assume we would be paying it off. My wife made her father schedule an appointment with a foreclosure lawyer. Well, the day of the appointment, my wife went to pickup her father and he had shot himself in the back shed. 

We all stepped up to help her mother, but it was truly a full time job. My parents used their connections to get her a room in a very good assisted living home and she is still there. 

So all this occurs and it's only rational to put our issues on the back burner. I do my best to be there for her, but I do still have resentments that are on the back burner. About 2-3 months after her fathers death, I began paying a mobile game. I played with my brother and son, but I played to excess. For me, it was the ultimate release from my stress, but admittedly an unhealthy one. From the day I began, I knew I had to quit. I felt guilty every day. 

So I'm gaming and still being very trusting of my wife, I wouldn't dissuade her from going out with friends. I would watch the kids, and she could try and get a break from all the stress. There were times I thought her going out was excessive, but I justified it because of all the craziness. So, one day, I'm in the kitchen and she gets a Snapchat message from a guy. Up until this point, I always assumed her "girls nights out" were with girls. But, it turned out she had just asked this guy out to the bar. I asked her a few questions about this guy and none of it added up. So I literally started interrogating her and more lies came out. So I basically attempted to put a boundary in place at that time. I immediately quit gaming. I began snooping on her in every way imaginable. I also had a mental and physical breakdown and spent a week in the hospital. It was all over the lies and concern she had been unfaithful.

So, I'm desperate. The lies don't make sense, but my snooping doesn't seem to point towards infidelity. It all seems to point to her wanting to maintain the status quo, which was her going out frequently to just have fun. "To be free" as she says. That said, if I was there, she didn't feel "free". 

So, I plan a romantic getaway, and she gets a stomach bug in the days before. I spent so much effort and energy that by the time we went, I was drained. The first night, I went to bed at 8pm, and she went down to the bar. This set the trend for our entire getaway. It bothered me and we began seeing another therapist. This one is better. 

So, we're back from vacation, in therapy and talking. Then, we get word that our 13 year old nephew had shot himself. He was over our house 2x a week. We were devastated. I had to try and explain it to my kids, but it also motivated me to get my **** sorted out. I don't want this trend to continue. 

I continue getting the feeling that something is off with me and my wife, but I'm trying everything. I decided to take her to a concert. When the act we went to see was over, I was expecting to leave; but she was expecting to stay. I explained I had work in the morning. And she reluctantly left with me, but I had lost any goodwill generated by the date. The next day, she wants to go to the concert with some friends. I didn't want her to go, so I said if you go I'm not going with you to your brother in laws birthday. I know it was important to her and thought it was a surefire way to stop her. It didn't and she left for the concert. 

So a few moths ago, I see my wife texting with a guy. It was a lot of texts over the course of a day. It made me uncomfortable and I immediately brought it up with her. She seemed to understand, but I did find her texting him again. I immediately brought it up again and now told her she's developing habit of lying to me about guys. 

So, I'm putting these boundaries up on the fly. Not the best practice. But, since now I'm not the same trusting husband, they are firmer. No texting with guys. No asking guys out to the bar. Etc...

So, I'm getting odd gut feelings. Basically it feels like shes looking for a new husband. I had even told her that I was feeling that way. She seemed to not care and it made me feel worse. 

I'm feeling like crap over it all and I'm doing all I can to prevent her from going to the bar where I assume the most danger is. She begins going over to a female friends house. But this friend has a weird backstory. Last year, shortly before the snapchat thing, this friend breaks up with her. Says she doesn't want to be friends anymore. At this point, pre-snapchat, I'm still trusting. So I took her word about why the friend broke it off. Some weird nonsense about scheduling gymnastics together without asking. Post snapchat, suspicious me asks my wife about the "breakup". I asked if it had anything to do with her husband. My wife said no, but I had seen a message from my wife to a friend implying it did. My wife said it was a joke.

So, a couple of months back, my wife and I are fighting pretty bad. She keeps running over to this friends house to talk with her. She tells me they are having marriage issues and my wife is helping. That sounds incredibly weird to me, because my wife can't even manage her own relationship. As I learn more about their relationship dynamics, certain things don't make sense. I also see that my wife is messaging him and her. One day, we were fighting bad, and she texts her friends husband over and over. Like she's crying on his shoulder. I waited to the next morning to look at her exchange with him. I see some really odd stuff. Nothing overly emotional, but my wife seems to reach out to him a lot, and he doesn't reply. My wife also seems to be worried that he blocked her. She says, "Did you block me?". Then goes over to Instagram and asks the same question. Now, since I had already asked a few questions, this exchange revealed a number of lies and inconsistancies. Later I learn that his wife didn't want him texting with my wife, and that she had asked her not to on multiple occasions and she continued to. In other words, his wife was seing the same thingI was. I could see no other way around it, I told my wife to get out of their house and stay out of their house. She realized how murky it was, and agreed, but still attempted to contact him one more time. He didn't reply. 

So my wife never offered me any information. I had to dig it out of her texts and use true interrogation methods to get the truth. This was a slow process over the course of a year and a half. It felt like when I would ask her something, she would get very evasive and just stonewall. But with just tidbits of information at a time, I tried to put the puzzle together. It totally made me crazy. I'm trying to deal wit hit in therapy now, but I'm getting a sense that the puzzle is coming together. 

We went to couples therapy to deal with this and some other issues involving her drinking (or inability to wake up after drinking), and I basically gave her an ultimatum. I offered her a divorce, if she wasn't willing to live by my rules. She walked out of therapy, but I think she realized exactly how right I was. She agreed. 

At this point, I don't believe she was unfaithful. I think she was trying to maintain her status quo as boundaries closed in on her. Our friends husband was the most precarious, because his wife cheated on him, and is unstable. But, I still think her intentions were good. 

Now, she recognized how bad of a position she was in. She was lying to me and her friend. Where I was always concerned about her coming in contact with a toxic person, I realized she may have been the toxic person. She didn't cheat as far as I know, but I'm broken down and hoping to recover the relationship. 

I'm trying to get her to work on her defensiveness. I think she recognized how precarious the situation was and what she put me through and now feels guilty and is willing to work on it.

So I've been gaslighted and lied to. That said, I'm still committed to the relationship. I want to try to work on our communication. I feel like I need to heal despite not having firm evidence of infidelity. I feel justified in that though. But, my wife doesn't want to talk about the past. She feels like we've been talking about it all year. I feel like she's been stonewalling all year, and the most I got was a word or two at a time.

She's now willing to go to therapy again. I'm not even sure where to start. I can't ask her anything about the past without her getting defensive. Hopefully therapy will help.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

It sounds like the two of you have been struggling with this for a long time. 

There are some books that I think would help you restructure your marriage/relationship to be a healthy and passionate one. The books are "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs". Read them in that order and do the work that they suggest to doing. You two should read them together. But if your wife does not want to read them at first, you can read them and learn a lot and then use the new knowledge in working on your relationship. And then hopefully she will read them at some point and the two of you can do the work the books say to do together.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

I think your situation is every bit as serious, perhaps more so, than you have said. I'm concerned about the fact that you were hospitalized for a week with a breakdown (it's tough to believe that whatever issues that led to the breakdown are better now), and that your wife's prior sexual trauma needs to be dealt with, not buried or used as an excuse. Both of you potentially have serious issues with depression at the very least, and while you may be the better-off in terms of pretending to be normal, it doesn't sound like a good idea for you to be very many days away from a therapist. You are not grounded... at all. There's so much going on. Too much.

Your wife's issues are severe. She needs to get the trauma dealt with, and that's going to be outside marriage counseling. It could be that her drinking problem comes from her inability to deal with the trauma. Both may be connected. Getting the marriage "fixed" (mostly by mutual understanding of the need for, and respect for, boundaries) might have to come afterward. 

You both really need professional help, continuing professional help, in a very big way. What you've been through is many times a normal person's nightmare.

My best wishes to you


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

*Reread one of the replies in your first TAM post*

@lessthennone You should re-read the final paragraph in this post, regarding prior abuse. Ironically, it's a reply from your very first thread on TAM.

https://talkaboutmarriage.com/10213585-post22.html

In listening to your story though it reminds me of something else. Is there any chance that somewhere in your wife's background during or before your marriage she was mistreated or bused sexually. When you said it is like she wants you to hurry up, that sounds like me. Along with LD. Definitely me. I didn't realize the full impact of my past abuse until I felt safe and secure in my relationship (18 years int it) and in my late 30's when my hormonal fluctuations evened out. It might be worth asking her. If my H would have asked earlier in our relationship a lot of marital issues could have been avoided. I didn't have the strenght to come right out and tell him. Abuse does that to a person though.​


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

I could say you are describing poor boundaries, but to me it sounds like no boundaries. Threatening to leave, divorce, or make a spouse suffer consequences isn't a reality here. You want to stay in this marriage because you are committed to making it work. Your wife? At best, it sounds to me like she doesn't respect you or take you seriously. At worst, it sounds to me like she is hanging out in bars and becoming over-friendly with other men. An affair? Maybe, maybe not. But there are a number of red flags that indicate she's enjoying the attention of other men.

I agree that you and your wife need serious IC. I'd tackle that before MC. Too many issues on both of your plates that need to be addressed first. JMO.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

I am going to lay low on this one..

For a while. 

Soon the heavy hitters are going to chime in.
Yep, cheating, yep, yep.

Yap, yap.

When the insults started coming (from her) is when she likely was looking. She needed a reason to step out on you.

The death of her father, then a nephew. 
Yep, discussed that (an angle leading to cheating), in another post.


KB-


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

The puzzle is finished and your wife is a serial cheater! Your marriage means nothing to her. You informed her with no contact. With the other men but she like it her way and her way only. What do you think her husband blocked her for he's already had the dessert. And why would he risk his marriage over your wife? 

What you are is a pushover and a beta provider. I surprised she hasn't already given you the ILYBNILWY. But because she knows you will put up with her BS, Is Why you haven't heard that yet. 

What would it take from her to have you stand up to her? She must marvel at the power she has over you. And you got it the female friend of of your wife's dropped her like a sack of potatoes that are rotten. Because when friends have problems they naturally work them out.

Not in this instance, it got outta here and stop all contact. The husband of your wife's friend, wants nothing to do with her and your wife went to another site to try to reconnect. She doesn't get the hint, not all men will put up with her. I doesn't matter if it's made out of rainbows and sunshine. He had his fill. And his fun. 

You need to get back in the saddle and ride and control the direction where you want this to go. But wondering if your ever going to get truth, no not really she has you to support her while she goes out and plays, boy & girl. 

She needs to be taken for a polygraph test and, I'm sure you'll might even get a parking lot confession. But she talk you out of that and keep you in the dark. Just wait she'll tell you she has plans for New year's night. And will go if you like it or not.

I'm not standing on your head, but unless you just want to keep smoking the hopium pipe that keeps you far far away from the truth. Now is the time. 

Make your move.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

You can be totally committed to the relationship but if she's not nothing you do will matter one bit.

Go online and take a look at your phone bill.

Sounds to me like you're being fed BS.

See this for what it is not what you want to see.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

I can't/won't say she cheated for sure, but that niggling feeling in the pit of my stomach is present.

She knows exactly what to say and how much to say to keep you hooked on the line. 

If you are committed to this relationship (no judgement from me either way) please be prepared for things to get MUCH worse before they get better.

oh crap, I meant to add, what you call ''boundaries'' are not. They're attempts at controlling her behaviour, and as you've found out, they don't work.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@lessthennone on you?

Well, she has cheated you out of a wife and your children out of a mother by her bizarre behaviours.

Is she emotionally cheating on you? Almost certainly.

Is she physically cheating on you? Possibly.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Boundaries?

Effective boundaries are set for her by other women, and other men.

Not by you.

Boundaries?

Those are for you to make.
Those are for her to break.


Part of her excitement is stepping over the line that you created and she desecrated.

When those other men hold her tight, she glowingly pulls their pud, while she knowingly sees you at home pulling your hair.

She gets them off and you off your rocker.


TT 1-


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Well, I'm in therapy weekly. I'm trying to drag her back to couples therapy, but she hates it because she always feels worse. She goes to grief counseling monthly, but I think she could use more specialized help and more frequent. She's reluctant. 

My issue is that I've had major trust issues over the last year. And since I kept finding lies, I just feel absolutely broken and hurt. Since I dug all the lies out myself, little by little. Kind of like putting together a puzzle without knowing the picture, I'm completely unfulfilled in our conversations. If I bring it up, she stonewalls, and if I'm lucky, I can get a one word "yes" or "no" response. She feels like we've been talking about it for the last year. I feel like I've been stonewalled for the last year, and still managed to dig all these lies out. I've been tracking her location, her cell phone usage, mms messages, Facebook and Instagram. I have called her friends including the one who blocked her. 

I'm hoping that I can begin the healing process in therapy, but it's hard to explain why I need to heal if I never discovered any infidelity. Yes, the fact that she lied, for whatever reason makes me know it's right. 

With her defensiveness, though, how do I try and heal? I have trouble sleeping and sometimes the thoughts keep me up at night. I tell this to my therapist, but she hasn't given me any meds yet. The best thing IMO would be couples therapy, but everytime we go, I end up talking about what happened that bothered me, and she gets upset that I'm "complaining about all the things she does wrong." Or "I keep bringing up the past." She just wants to look forward. She knows I'm hurt, but doesn't seem to be capable of helping me with the healing process.

In regards to her sexual abuse, it was an odd situation. A boyfriend attempted to rape her. That said, they had sex twice before that. And after that, she didn't seem to have hangups about sex. The hangups only began after we had kids.

I also have the feeling that when she goes to therapy, she generalizes so much that somehow what has happened over the last year won't come up. She will talk about her childhood, her fathers death, but not stuff she screwed up. She doesn't like to take ownership for anything. Even when she does, the next statement will be defensive. Basically a 100% regression. So conversations don't progress.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

If she isn’t willing to discuss the past that brought you here, you might as well just walk now, because you are not in a true reconciliation with a remorseful person. You’re screwed. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

lessthennone said:


> I'm trying to drag her back to couples therapy, but she hates it because she always feels worse.
> 
> … I'm completely unfulfilled in our conversations. If I bring it up, she stonewalls, and if I'm lucky, I can get a one word "yes" or "no" response.
> 
> ...


The definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

And with regard to the question as to how you heal, I'll be frank: you gain the tools through therapy to heal yourself. What your wife does is not contingent upon you healing. She is a liar. She wants to hang out in bars and flirt with men. My guess is she keeps you around for the paycheck.

Look, this has been going on for years. And you keep attempting to drag her into counseling. So how's that workin' for ya? 

As I said to another poster years ago - and it certainly applies here - your marriage sounds like a guy dragging a dead whale across the beach.

Your wife has no desire or intention to change. You keep trying to get her to see the light. She's not interested. Period.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*The true signs of a toxic relationship, ever since its inception!

I really think she's doing nothing more than using these MC's as some kind of a facade in order to insure that she will get the negative results that she is hoping to find! It seems that she's trying her level best to ditch you!

I would also make it part of a responsive repertoire to have a long expansive visit with a good experienced family lawyer to look at protecting your marital rights!*


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Your wife was, is I don't know, but she was having an affair. 

I think it was physical in my opinion, but it was for sure emotional. 

You wrote this long summery and twist yourself into a pretzel to explain where you are and how it really is getting on track. 

You could have saved yourself a lot of typing by saying, "My wife cheated on me, I took it and tried to fix it, should I still continue?" 

I don't know why you are in such denial, but I really hope you can understand what I am trying to say. 

Your wife is a cheater, she has probably been screwing her friend's husband the whole time. 

You need to wake up, file for divorce and find a new therapist, because the one you have seems to be telling you to keep your head in the sand...

This is going to be your life until you wake up in a number of areas of your life, the main one being that your wife has been cheating on you and you need to divorce her...


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

It's up to the cheater (not you) to fix the mess that they create.

You can not control another human being. Specifically, you can not force your wife to take the steps necessary to fix herself and to help you heal. You can't force her to face her demons or acknowledge her inappropriate behavior - or the consequences to your marriage.

If she's unable or unwilling to do the work, then it's just a question of how much pain you can stand before you exit.
Under the circumstances, IMO you should at the very least distance yourself from her to prepare yourself mentally for divorce.


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