# Love Her To Death, But My Needs Aren’t Being Met



## Haus

Started counseling to figure out if my sex drive is normal. Turns out I am. Seems like some cruel joke where men like sex daily and women 1-2x per week. I’m generalizing how I feel so don’t get offended. If her slogan is,”less often increases desire,” then mine would be “who do you want me to desire in between you building yours?” 

middle aged
Professional
Male
2nd marriage


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## RebuildingMe

2x a week isn’t terrible, not ideal, but not terrible. You have kids between you? Does she work? Has the sex increased since counseling?


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## frenchpaddy

Haus said:


> Started counseling to figure out if my sex drive is normal. Turns out I am. Seems like some cruel joke where men like sex daily and women 1-2x per week. I’m generalizing how I feel so don’t get offended. If her slogan is,”less often increases desire,” then mine would be “who do you want me to desire in between you building yours?”
> 
> middle aged
> Professional
> Male
> 2nd marriage


welcome , when ever your ready to post about how you feel and how you see your marriage going from here , we are ready for you , tell us about how the rest of your life is , how your job and her job affects your life and if you have kids , and if you all ways had a difference in sex drive , even if you lived together for long before hand , the more information the better and some times it is just enough to read for yourself what you post 

and what other points were made in MC


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## Haus

RebuildingMe said:


> 2x a week isn’t terrible, not ideal, but not terrible. You have kids between you? Does she work? Has the sex increased since counseling?


No kids together, we had 2 each from our prior marriages. Last kiddo of hers is 1 1/2 years away from HS graduation.

She is starting a new career and going to college full time. She graduates this December.

I’ve done counseling on my own s far and shared all my thoughts and feelings. It increased for a bit when she found out I was not satisfied, but it’s now slipping and on track to return to 2x a week.


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## DownByTheRiver

Most men want sex more frequently than most women do and that goes back to the dawn of time. There are exceptions and there are reverse situations, but in general it's a true statement. I'm from an older generation and I can tell you that men used to just accept that more than they do now that they're exposed to porn and the internet. If you want to totally kill her desire, keep pushing for more when she's not wanting it instead of relishing it when she is. Don't make it a chore for her or you'll kill it.


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## frenchpaddy

what is middle aged in your eyes ?
YOU done counseling but you did not do it together so why not 
for me it has to be both together and apart each


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## Haus

frenchpaddy said:


> welcome , when ever your ready to post about how you feel and how you see your marriage going from here , we are ready for you , tell us about how the rest of your life is , how your job and her job affects your life and if you have kids , and if you all ways had a difference in sex drive , even if you lived together for long before hand , the more information the better and some times it is just enough to read for yourself what you post
> 
> and what other points were made in MC


My job is amazing.

She will have an amazing career in the medical field after she graduates in December.

I have hobbies I enjoy. Hunting, hiking, kayaking. Most of which I’ve done without her during these past two years while she’s been in school.

As is probably every guys experience. Sex was multiple times per day in the beginning 6 years ago. My sex drive has only decreased a few times during the past 6 years. Begging and chasing non-stop is a chore. Cuddling, flowers, cards for no reason, dinners out, date nights, etc… are all well and good, but begin to feel like I’m paying or manipulating her to get what I need.

I don’t plan to get a divorce, and my hobbies are generally with other guys if she does not go, so the risk of an affair are pretty much non-existent.

I do feel my anger and frustration growing. I can only be intimate with myself so much before I need that connection with a real human. I put on a poker face and pretend I’m happy and supportive.


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## Haus

frenchpaddy said:


> what is middle aged in your eyes ?
> YOU done counseling but you did not do it together so why not
> for me it has to be both together and apart each


40’s is about halfway through this ride and would be middle aged to me.

She is scheduled to go alone soon for her first session. I’m not ruling out couples counseling, but I wanted an opinion alone first to see if I was some sex craving lunatic.


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## Haus

DownByTheRiver said:


> Most men want sex more frequently than most women do and that goes back to the dawn of time. There are exceptions and there are reverse situations, but in general it's a true statement. I'm from an older generation and I can tell you that men used to just accept that more than they do now that they're exposed to porn and the internet. If you want to totally kill her desire, keep pushing for more when she's not wanting it instead of relishing it when she is. Don't make it a chore for her or you'll kill it.


I completely understand your thinking. Reading that they even have virtual reality goggles and devices that are synced to the video.

if satisfying her or her satisfying me becomes a chore, not having kids together brings things down to a financial transaction.


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## frenchpaddy

you seem to be doing all the right things , 
I asked because we have a woman that is asking about what we think of her husband that is playing games on the pc , and others here think it is good to relax for 3 to 5 h after dinner on his pc ,
to me that is a good way to not have a marriage


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## LATERILUS79

Yep. Same old same old. 

This is why I dont plan on getting married a second time. The moment the "sex every day" stops.... well, it was a good run. Looks like we aren't compatible. No hard feelings. I'll find someone new. 

I wish you the best of luck fixing this issue. 

Oh, and it has nothing to do with porn


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## Loves Coffee

You're not being unreasonable, and your sex drive doesn't sound crazy.


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## Enigma32

While I think your sex drive is perfectly reasonable I think that hers is as well. On average, married couples only have sex around 1x a week. Personally, I wouldn't consider leaving a marriage with someone I cared about over that.


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## Mystic Moon

In her 40s your wife could be pre-menopausal. If sex has never been a big priority for her, it's unlikely to change. 

Your current sex life is considered a healthy average for your ages, and marital status. (Averaging 1-2 times a week would thrill a lot of people.) Perhaps the two of you will be able to find a compromise, because if she is content with 1-2 times a week, and you would be happier with 4-5 times or even daily, you both need to change your expectations, and find a way to compromise that you're both happy with. It's not reasonable to expect her to be ready whenever you want, nor is it reasonable that you should go without 5+ days a week, and feel like you're being denied, and feeling resentful. 

Finding a partner that is over 40, and wants to have sex almost daily, while raising kids, going to college, and/or working full time, is pretty uncommon.

Maybe you could try incorporating sensual massages, and tantric sex to inspire more frequency in your sex life. Flowers and cuddles are nice, but an intimate connection is more likely to get results sexually.

Good luck. I hope that your therapist can help you and your wife come up with a reasonable solution, that doesn't leave either of you feeling obligated, or resentful.


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## LATERILUS79

frusdil said:


> Where did he say that? Or has the post been edited?


Good catch. 

TM is putting words in his mouth that he didn't say. 

Quite unfair in my opinion, along with her "typical of all men on this forum" comment.


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## LATERILUS79

Enigma32 said:


> While I think your sex drive is perfectly reasonable I think that hers is as well. On average, married couples only have sex around 1x a week. Personally, I wouldn't consider leaving a marriage with someone I cared about over that.


Is it fair to say to another what they need in a relationship? If he (or she) needs sex every day to feel loved and appreciated, then that js what he needs. It js OK that you wouldn't leave someone over that. I get that and truly do understand. 

I would leave a marriage over only getting sex once a week.


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## Haus

TexasMom1216 said:


> REDACTED.


No, I expressed my needs and she chose to go to counseling as did I. If porn is cheating then I’m guilty, however it serves as a snack between actual meals. No where near as satisfying, bonding, or intimate, but it is an activity I have 100% control over, unlike sex with my gorgeous spouse. 🤷🏼‍♂️


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## Haus

Mystic Moon said:


> In her 40s your wife could be pre-menopausal. If sex has never been a big priority for her, it's unlikely to change.
> 
> Your current sex life is considered a healthy average for your ages, and marital status. (Averaging 1-2 times a week would thrill a lot of people.) Perhaps the two of you will be able to find a compromise, because if she is content with 1-2 times a week, and you would be happier with 4-5 times or even daily, you both need to change your expectations, and find a way to compromise that you're both happy with. It's not reasonable to expect her to be ready whenever you want, nor is it reasonable that you should go without 5+ days a week, and feel like you're being denied, and feeling resentful.
> 
> Finding a partner that is over 40, and wants to have sex almost daily, while raising kids, going to college, and/or working full time, is pretty uncommon.
> 
> Maybe you could try incorporating sensual massages, and tantric sex to inspire more frequency in your sex life. Flowers and cuddles are nice, but an intimate connection is more likely to get results sexually.
> 
> Good luck. I hope that your therapist can help you and your wife come up with a reasonable solution, that doesn't leave either of you feeling obligated, or resentful.


Agreed, I’ve even resorted to reading and listening to romance novels to get a better feel for what secrets or techniques I’m missing, since most are written by women. I’m open minded to pretty much anything but pain. Bondage, blindfolds, candle wax, ice, feathers, toys, etc. heck, I even have the plans to build a chaise lounge she showed interest in.


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## TexasMom1216

Haus said:


> No, I expressed my needs and she chose to go to counseling as did I. If porn is cheating then I’m guilty, however it serves as a snack between actual meals. No where near as satisfying, bonding, or intimate, but it is an activity I have 100% control over, unlike sex with my gorgeous spouse. 🤷🏼‍♂️


Porn isn’t cheating IMHO. But you’re getting more sex than most of us get and your expectation of multiple daily sessions seems unrealistic to me. But again, just my opinion.


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## Enigma32

LATERILUS79 said:


> Is it fair to say to another what they need in a relationship? If he (or she) needs sex every day to feel loved and appreciated, then that js what he needs. It js OK that you wouldn't leave someone over that. I get that and truly do understand.
> 
> I would leave a marriage over only getting sex once a week.


All I can do is give my perspective. Since the average married couple is having sex even less than he is, it makes his demands seem a bit unreasonable. If you're in an otherwise happy relationship and your only complaint is that your frequency of sex is in line with the average couple, I'd consider myself lucky and be content with life.


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## Haus

TexasMom1216 said:


> I don’t know if the post was edited but mine is very tongue in cheek. He’s talking about having sex multiple times a day while she has an “amazing career.” Not very realistic. But very typical of men on this forum. I guess she has to do it on her breaks? Because women can totally orgasm in 15 minutes. (I doubt he cares about that) But there is this:
> 
> *If her slogan is,”less often increases desire,” then mine would be “who do you want me to desire in between you building yours?”*
> 
> That’s a very thinly veiled threat to cheat if she doesn’t toe the line.


actually the best I can do is take care of her needs in 20min and that is a record. 30-45 is the norm. I had a training class one time in a prior career that said if you are unwilling to please your spouse then you are just two lazy to take matters into your own hands. I get permission before I finish. Sometimes she just says her heads in the wrong place and gives up, regardless of what I try.


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## Haus

TexasMom1216 said:


> Porn isn’t cheating IMHO. But you’re getting more sex than most of us get and your expectation of multiple daily sessions seems unrealistic to me. But again, just my opinion.


“Used” to be multiple times per day. There’s a country song about being as good once as he ever was. It gets truer day by day, lol.


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## LATERILUS79

Enigma32 said:


> All I can do is give my perspective. Since the average married couple is having sex even less than he is, it makes his demands seem a bit unreasonable. If you're in an otherwise happy relationship and your only complaint is that your frequency of sex is in line with the average couple, I'd consider myself lucky and be content with life.


What if you aren't in a happy relationship? What if you continually give in many different ways and only get crumbs in return? What if it isn't just frequency? What if his wife only offers terrible sex but then says, "you should be happy because I'm meeting your quota.". 

Again, I can understand if that makes it ok for some. It wouldn't for me. Not by a long shot.


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## Haus

LATERILUS79 said:


> What if you aren't in a happy relationship? What if you continually give in many different ways and only get crumbs in return? What if it isn't just frequency? What if his wife only offers terrible sex but then says, "you should be happy because I'm meeting your quota.".
> 
> Again, I can understand if that makes it ok for some. It wouldn't for me. Not by a long shot.


the fact that when we do and are both there mentally, it’s mind blowing, just increases desire for me, but not for her. She’s wired backwards.


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## Enigma32

LATERILUS79 said:


> What if you aren't in a happy relationship? What if you continually give in many different ways and only get crumbs in return? What if it isn't just frequency? What if his wife only offers terrible sex but then says, "you should be happy because I'm meeting your quota.".
> 
> Again, I can understand if that makes it ok for some. It wouldn't for me. Not by a long shot.


Everyone is entitled to their preferences, man. OP posted that it takes his wife like 45 mins to get hers and for me that would be a bigger dealbreaker than the low frequency of sex. I don't wanna feel like I need to punch a clock and put on my steel toed work boots to get a woman off.


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## TexasMom1216

Haus said:


> “Used” to be multiple times per day. There’s a country song about being as good once as he ever was. It gets truer day by day, lol.


I guess divorce her then. Since she’s “wired backwards,” she’s broken. Find someone else who can stay home and be on call for all the sex you want.


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## frenchpaddy

Haus said:


> open minded to pretty much anything but pain. Bondage, blindfolds, candle wax, ice, feathers, toys, etc. heck,


unless she is into all the kinky stuff you might as well ask her to sleep with the postman , if she is not into the kink side of sex and if she has tried it for you and did not like you might be turning her off


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## TexasMom1216

frenchpaddy said:


> unless she is into all the kinky stuff you might as well ask her to sleep with the postman , if she is not into the kink side of sex and if she has tried it for you and did not like you might be turning her off


You’re missing the point. She doesn’t get a say.


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## frenchpaddy

TexasMom1216 said:


> You’re missing the point. She doesn’t get a say.


for sale one Princess, I have tried everything but it still will not work , so must go to new owner ,


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## TexasMom1216

Haus said:


> actually the best I can do is take care of her needs in 20min and that is a record. 30-45 is the norm. I had a training class one time in a prior career that said if you are unwilling to please your spouse then you are just two lazy to take matters into your own hands. I get permission before I finish. Sometimes she just says her heads in the wrong place and gives up, regardless of what I try.


Then I have no idea how you can have a job and do this “multiple times a day.” Seems like there would be no time for anything else. Normal work breaks are 15 minutes, not many jobs will let her leave every couple of hours for an hour each time to provide a service for you. What do you expect her to tel her boss and how long do you think they’ll tolerate her being gone half a day every day for this? Sounds like you expect her “career” to be sex. She’ll need to give up her other job, which puts her in a really bad place. It’s an old profession, but it has a shelf life.


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## frenchpaddy

it all depends on how the two people think in the relationship , if the two are on the same game it is going to be easy , but if one was just putting on an act to trap the other it will show after the bid day,and I am not talking about sex but everything if you or she was showing your best side ,
a good marriage takes work , and people that talk about sex end up with good sex life's , if you think you don't need to talk about it well it not going to happen , 

You need to talk about all things in your life,
you have one mouth and two ears so lessen to her as well , she has rights get her to talk about how she feels , normally if a woman is happy and feels safe and feels the relationship is good and she knows she is your princess all is good , 

I would say cut out the porn 
PORN IS FAKE you know there is about 20 people around the bed some with make up some with lights and some filming and you could be given you wife the feeling she should be doing this , 
only it pushes her away most often , 

for me porn is a big red flag


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## frenchpaddy

EXPECTING SEX 
just because you mowed the lawn or it is your birthday , or because you paid for dinner , your going to be disappointed , you might as well call her your escort girl , there is more to been in a relationship to just looking at porn and then take her to dinner and because of that she is going to try every thing you saw in this weeks porn movies all 23 of them


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## Haus

frenchpaddy said:


> EXPECTING SEX
> just because you mowed the lawn or it is your birthday , or because you paid for dinner , your going to be disappointed , you might as well call her your escort girl , there is more to been in a relationship to just looking at porn and then take her to dinner and because of that she is going to try every thing you saw in this weeks porn movies all 23 of them


lol, we don’t watch Superman and then expect the other person to be able to fly.


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## Haus

frenchpaddy said:


> unless she is into all the kinky stuff you might as well ask her to sleep with the postman , if she is not into the kink side of sex and if she has tried it for you and did not like you might be turning her off


Was her idea. 🤷🏼‍♂️


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## In Absentia

Twice a week in your mid-forties is a good average. Pushing your wife or counselling are not going to increase her libido. By pushing her you will end up destroying her attraction to you and you'll get pity sex. When libidos are mismatched, you need to find a compromise. Twice a week is her compromise. Accept it and enjoy your otherwise good marriage, since you are not going to divorce her. And welcome to reality...


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## frenchpaddy

Haus said:


> lol, we don’t watch Superman and then expect the other person to be able to fly.





Haus said:


> Was her idea. 🤷🏼‍♂️


 if you don't tell us she is into kinky how are we to know , are you saying she is into looking at porn all so your words " we don’t watch Superman and then expect the other person to be able to fly." the word we is important here and my crystal ball is not working today


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## Haus

frenchpaddy said:


> if you don't tell us she is into kinky how are we to know , are you saying she is into looking at porn all so your words " we don’t watch Superman and then expect the other person to be able to fly." the word we is important here and my crystal ball is not working today


she does as well.


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## lifeistooshort

You're getting it twice a week. If you're going to die on the hill of every day sex you're going to have a really hard time finding a woman who wants it daily long term, and that doesn't even touch on other compatabilities. You can dump your wife and try to find another woman who puts out daily and when that fades you can just hop to another one, but that may not be as fulfilling as you think.

If you're going to keep pressuring her for mire she's probably going to enjoy very little. Your needs aren't the only ones that matter.

Life is about compromise so what could you live with?

In regards to porn, have you considered whether its the porn creating some of your expectations? Have you tried not watching it temporarily and seeing what your drive looks like without it? Porn can artificially stimulate sex drive.


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## frenchpaddy

just may be she has other things on her mind now with her studies


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## Rus47

Haus said:


> No, I expressed my needs and she chose to go to counseling as did I. If porn is cheating then I’m guilty, however it serves as a snack between actual meals. No where near as satisfying, bonding, or intimate, but it is an activity I have 100% control over, unlike sex with my gorgeous spouse. 🤷🏼‍♂️


You have been married 6 years this time? How long was your first marriage and why did it end? 

Presumably the sex was acceptable when you got together. Her drive has dropped over the 6 years, yours has remained the same or increased. Neither of you are "abnormal" ( if there even is such a thing as "normal" ), you are just mismatched, now maybe that has happened over time as both of you got comfortable with being the real "you". There is a TAM member who has posited that a drive ratio of more than 3:1 isn't sustainable for a happy marriage. You are at every day and she is at every week. So you aren't compatible sexually. 

You have already clearly "made your case", and gone through therapy. She has done nothing but explain why things are as they are. Her desire isn't likely to improve, especially because she no doubt realizes you are already not happy and content in the marriage. IMO your realistic choices are to either accommodate her "schedule" and deal with sex half as often as you want. Realize that that schedule may become much more infrequent a decade from now. Or dissolve the partnership. 

You mention she is in college for a medical career. Are you maybe the financial means to a goal she had from the beginning of your relationship? You said she is "gorgeous", is she using that as the "hook" to keep you around until she achieves her goal?


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## Rus47

Enigma32 said:


> All I can do is give my perspective. Since the average married couple is having sex even less than he is, it makes his demands seem a bit unreasonable. If you're in an otherwise happy relationship and your only complaint is that your frequency of sex is in line with the average couple, I'd consider myself lucky and be content with life.


The "average" couple is never relevant. OP has needs specific to himself. He isn't wrong wanting sex with the woman he married every day. Or five times in a day. Those are his needs. His wife isn't wrong if she NEVER wants sex with her husband or anyone else ever again. Those are her wants.

The thing is, being miserable for another potential 40 years of life because a couple are mismatched in the sex department makes no sense. They married 6 years ago. No kids together. They just made a mistake. Happens all of the time.

Maybe as someone said he has no chance of finding a woman matched to his pace. That once a week is the best he could ever expect. Maybe that is true, but at least he can see what is on the other side of the mountain. Up to him if he wants to roll the dice some more or live with the misery that he knows now for a few more decades.


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## ccpowerslave

Rus47 said:


> There is a TAM member who has posited that a drive ratio of more than 3:1 isn't sustainable for a happy marriage.


That is my theory.

So if his ideal is 2x/day and he’s 1-2x a week then at best he’s 7:1 and of course that would be crisis level. Even at a more do-able 1/day he’d still be in crisis level.

He’s already had the talk and things improved a bit and then degraded.

So my advice in this case would be to start distancing yourself and stop being the sexual pursuer. This is dual purpose as it prepares you to leave if things do not turn around. I’d feel free to tell her you already talked about it and you’re disappointed but understand if she’s not along for the ride so to speak. See if something changed or if there’s an issue where you’re doing unattractive behaviors.

I don’t think it’s uncommon to hit a hitch around that time in your marriage. That is when I noticed the sex dropped off in mine as well, however I was misguided in that “ha ha that is the old cliche, this always happens”.

My own wife is living proof that the same woman with some effort and a desire to not explode things can do it.

Think about it like this. If you separated and she started dating would she be back to having multiple times a day sex with a new partner? If the answer is yes, then what’s the difference between that person and you?


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## lifeistooshort

Rus47 said:


> The "average" couple is never relevant. OP has needs specific to himself. He isn't wrong wanting sex with the woman he married every day. Or five times in a day. Those are his needs. His wife isn't wrong if she NEVER wants sex with her husband or anyone else ever again. Those are her wants.
> 
> The thing is, being miserable for another potential 40 years of life because a couple are mismatched in the sex department makes no sense. They married 6 years ago. No kids together. They just made a mistake. Happens all of the time.
> 
> Maybe as someone said he has no chance of finding a woman matched to his pace. That once a week is the best he could ever expect. Maybe that is true, but at least he can see what is on the other side of the mountain. Up to him if he wants to roll the dice some more or live with the misery that he knows now for a few more decades.


I didn't suggest he had no chance. I suggested that it would be difficult to find one that was a daily kind of person long term because it's normal for things to settle down some as life happens. And there are other compatabilities to consider so that lowers the chances even more.

One thing I've observed that I find interesting is that it's always assumed the lower drive partner is obligated to meet the higher drive partner's needs. What if her needs involve a couple of rest days so she can enjoy the next round? 

i don't mean that as an insult or judgement, just an observation. It could be as you said and they're simply misnatched.


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## In Absentia

They are mismatched, but instead of accepting reality, the OP is trying to find ways for his wife to increase her libido, which almost never happens - apart from a couple of people here on TAM...  Also, we have the usual mantra: I'm not going to divorce her. It's an impossible situation and one on them is going to be unhappy. I think I know who is going to be.


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## ccpowerslave

lifeistooshort said:


> One thing I've observed that I find interesting is that it's always assumed the lower drive partner is obligated to meet the higher drive partner's needs. What if her needs involve a couple of rest days so she can enjoy the next round?
> 
> i don't mean that as an insult or judgement, just an observation. It could be as you said and they're simply misnatched.


Thing is they weren’t mismatched. At the start things are fine and then over time they became not fine.

The question is why and what changed?

The specific example you have people need to be reasonable. I know my wife’s parts if we have longer and more vigorous sessions can require some rest time as is the case that happened this past weekend. That’s just a physical reality.


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## In Absentia

ccpowerslave said:


> Thing is they weren’t mismatched. At the start things are fine and then over time they became not fine.
> 
> The question is why and what changed?


Yes, we don't really know what changed... my guess is that the wife is now showing her normal libido (maybe even more than her normal libido) because their honeymoon period is over. So, sex frequency drops. Not unusual.


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## ccpowerslave

In Absentia said:


> Yes, we don't really know what changed... my guess is that the wife is now showing her normal libido (maybe even more than her normal libido) because their honeymoon period is over. So, sex frequency drops. Not unusual.


Maybe… I think the thought experiment I posted is important. If they separated and she kicked off another relationship down the road is she now a 1-2x a week gal or not?

If the answer is yes, or she’s maybe done, well then that’s just about it.

If the answer is no or maybe not, I can see her being an enthusiastic and frequent partner in that case then why?

I don’t think it’s enough to go, “Hmm peoples desire just changes after X years.” Maybe that’s right and it does, but why? There is a reason.


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## Bulfrog1987

Enigma32 said:


> Everyone is entitled to their preferences, man. OP posted that it takes his wife like 45 mins to get hers and for me that would be a bigger dealbreaker than the low frequency of sex. I don't wanna feel like I need to punch a clock and put on my steel toed work boots to get a woman off.


Dude. I’ve been through a lot in my last marriage. A lot. I was never physically abused and I would not go as far as saying rape but I was definitely put in situations were I had to have sex or suffer the consequences later verbally or emotionally, I was used a vessel and not taken care of for so long.. it became WORK even for me to reach climax and I imagine, the next guy is going to have his work cut out for him. It’s mostly mental for females and I WISH some days I wasn’t wired this way but..

If 45 minutes of play is work for you…. 😒


As for the OP, I agree 2x a week isn’t a terrible average given there many many men on here having sex three times a month, some less. But I’m your case you say you need more, you desire more. It’s great you desire your wife, the more you push though it may be pushing her away, it’s a tricky line to tow. Hope the counseling will help you all.


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## In Absentia

ccpowerslave said:


> There is a reason.


Not one... usually several...


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## She'sStillGotIt

*


Haus said:



Started counseling to figure out if my sex drive is normal. Turns out I am. Seems like some cruel joke where men like sex daily and women 1-2x per week. I’m generalizing how I feel so don’t get offended. If her slogan is,”less often increases desire,” then mine would be “who do you want me to desire in between you building yours?”

Click to expand...

*Your right or left hand, whichever you prefer.

Shocker. A guy wants sex every day. 🙄

Your purpose for wanting sex every day is not to "bond" with her or you wouldn't be masturbating to porn every day you don't have sex. I laugh every time a guy claims he wants sex every day because he wants to intimately bond with his wife. What a crock.


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## Kitcat30

Everyone's needs are different and this can change overtime. Sometimes it depends what's going on in our lives. I lost my sex drive completely after having my little one, but still made an effort to do it once or twice a week. Amazingly it did come back after I stopped breastfeeding and oo man it has been back with a vengeance. For the past year and a half I now have the larger sex drive and my husband is the one who couldn't keep up 😅. Again it's also stress and other factors in life that can play a part. Have a talk with your partner and let her know you would like to do it maybe one more night a week. I'm also guessing maybe the problem is a lack of passion during the dirty rather than the amount your doing it. I mean if your having amazing sex twice a week, I think that should be ok really. If I have good sex don't get me wrong I'd wana to do it again, but I can always hold out a couple more days.


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## Rus47

lifeistooshort said:


> it's always assumed the lower drive partner is obligated to meet the higher drive partner's needs.


I have never said that. Either person has agency to make their own choices. In fact what I wrote is that OP only controls himself. So, he can adjust his pace to hers or leave. He needs to choose for himself. She isnt changing, and doesnt need to.


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## Personal

Enigma32 said:


> All I can do is give my perspective. Since the average married couple is having sex even less than he is, it makes his demands seem a bit unreasonable. If you're in an otherwise happy relationship and your only complaint is that your frequency of sex is in line with the average couple, I'd consider myself lucky and be content with life.


I guess it depends upon his sex drive, and what he is used to.

I mean, at 51 and 23 years married into a 26 year sexual relationship, I would be absolutely crawling the walls at only sharing sex with such an appallingly limited frequency.

Now I wouldn't cheat on my wife, since it's poor form. Yet I would certainly be faced with either seeking sex outside of my marriage, while keeping my wife informed, while also negotiating some boundaries to try to mitigate the risk of potentially passing on any STI/Ds. Or alternatively, simply agreeing to end our marital relationship altogether.

One thing for sure, I wouldn't be happily married at all. If I didn't share much sex with my wife.

So even though I love spending a tremendous amount of non-sexual time with my wife. As someone who is still sexually able (without medical aid), I just couldn't settle for less. Without trying to seek the sharing of sex with others, to try and fill what would be an all consuming void for me.

Of which if the shoe was on the other foot, I do not think my wife ought to feel she should suck up very infrequent sex or no sex at all from me. So if my wife was faced with the same thing, I don't have any expectation that she shouldn't feel free to outsource the delicious experience of sharing sex with someone.

Now @Haus's wife isn't wrong to want to share sex much less frequently than Haus, yet he isn't wrong to want much more either. I don't know, maybe if they care for each others desire for sharing sex, maybe they can meet somewhere between his desire and hers.

Or perhaps they might afford each other the understanding that, she will be less bothered by him sexually. While he has a girlfriend or three along the way as well. Who knows maybe she has some female friends, who want more sex than they're getting right now.



Haus said:


> I don’t plan to get a divorce, and my hobbies are generally with other guys if she does not go, so the risk of an affair are pretty much non-existent.


Okay, so if you don't plan on getting a divorce, what is your solution?

It's not like you are likely to convince your wife to change her mind. And on generating desire, if she is satisfied as is and doesn't want more at all, then that's the line she has.

So why don't you use some of your time with friends, in having another girlfriend or less formal sexual relationships with different women? All while having your wife know, that you are doing exactly that.


----------



## In Absentia

Personal said:


> Okay, so if you don't plan on getting a divorce, what is your solution?


Open marriage or intensive masturbation...


----------



## Personal

In Absentia said:


> Open marriage or intensive masturbation...


"When masturbation's lost its fun."






Thanks Green Day.


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## Haus

In Absentia said:


> Open marriage or intensive masturbation...


No open marriage for me. So maybe the latter.


----------



## ABHale

Do you think that she was trying to make sure you stayed at the start of your relationship with all the sex that was going on? That it was just a bait and switch on her part?

With her being in school and work both for the past two years would be hard to find any time for sex or anything else.


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## LATERILUS79

Enigma32 said:


> All I can do is give my perspective. Since the average married couple is having sex even less than he is, it makes his demands seem a bit unreasonable. If you're in an otherwise happy relationship and your only complaint is that your frequency of sex is in line with the average couple, I'd consider myself lucky and be content with life.


Lol. I’d gladly punch that clock!

everyone is going to have their preferences. If my future woman took 45 minutes to get off, but I got it every day?! I would be pumped to put in the effort to get her off in those 45 minutes!


----------



## Haus

ABHale said:


> Do you think that she was trying to make sure you stayed at the start of your relationship with all the sex that was going on? That it was just a bait and switch on her part?
> 
> With her being in school and work both for the past two years would be hard to find any time for sex or anything else.


she’s not working


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## Haus

I’m having trouble finding the person who asked, but my first marriage lasted 22 years. Ended after she stepped outside the marriage for the third time. I waited for the kids to graduate. 

She was getting her needs met elsewhere. So insecurities could also be at play. I listen and try to do all those little things and make sure she has a quality sex life too. Although, my sex drive was the same in my prior marriage and 5x+ per week was the norm.


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## Livvie

Haus said:


> she’s not working


She's not working right now... Imagine how much less sex there will potentially be once she starts working.

I do think if she started a new relationship she'd know that in order to cement the relationship she'd have to have sex more than once a week. I think she's not addressing the situation with you, because she knows you're not going anywhere.


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## oldshirt

There is a podcaster called "Dr Psych Mom" that talks a lot about this kind of stuff on her podcasts and in her articles on her website. 

It is quite typical for a woman in a long term monogamous relationship to experience a significant decrease in her level of spontaneous desire and switch over to more of a responsive desire where it takes more connection and touching, kissing, foreplay etc for her desire to get fired up. 

Men on the other hand just keep on trucking at their baseline level of desire and don't really lose that level of spontaneous desire until they are elderly. 

If the relationship is basically functional and she fundamentally likes her husband, a woman may remain at least open to the idea of continuing a sex life and being open to letting her husband touch her and kiss her and arouse her to where her responsive desire fires up and she starts to get into it. 

If the relationship is dysfunctional and/or in reality she really doesn't like him much and has no actual attraction for him, then the sex life is pretty much done and they need to decide if they want to remain together at all. 

As you are still having an active and regular sex life and she is participating in sex on a regular basis (though maybe not as frequent as you would prefer) that likely means that she does have a baseline level of attraction for you and that the relationship is fundamentally healthy. 

So this kind of comes down to finding a mutually agreeable and sustainable means of keeping her from feeling pressured and like she is being used as a "vessel" as an early poster mentioned, and to keep you from becoming resentful and bitter and feeling unloved and unappreciated and being used as an ATM for financial support. 

The point here is NEITHER of your sex drives are abnormal or even necessarily unhealthy. You just need to find a middle ground and a process where each of your basic needs can be met with neither of you feeling used, pressured or resentful. 

This is a situation that joint sex therapy can help. This is something that you two need to work on together rather as two individuals since neither of you is wonky as an individual. This is a matter of you two finding a process and system that works for you as a couple.


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## hamadryad

As others have stated, there is no "bad guy " here....

Its just reached a point where the two don't meet....The problem though is she is getting enough(maybe more than enough) and he is getting less....So its him that is having the issue..

These rarely get better, I think the best that happens, is she agrees that its better than digging a ditch, so she holds her nose and hopes it ends soon...For some guys that is a reasonable compromise, for others it isn't...Lets face it, its not like she isn't aware, even if he said nothing about it, she probably is well aware of the problem and chooses to not do anything about it...

At this point, you either play her or trade her, as they like to say in sports....If the good outweighs the bad, you deal with the additional drive by the way most guys do,..... with Palmela and her 5 sisters...lol..


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## hamadryad

....there is one thing that I could add that may help.....I say may, because I have seen it work for some guys, but i imagine it wouldn't for all...

As stated, this is the life you have ....You can only control what you can control, which right now isn't much...But here is the thing...Maybe there is something{s} that you could do in order to change the story..

And if you already have this covered, then ignore this advice...

I have known guys that decided to make some changes in their physical appearance/confidence/attitude that had profound effect on their partners sexual desire for them.. A change in physique, lose weight, improve hygiene, etc..I think a lot of the boost in interest from the wife came from compliments he starts getting from other women...

If this is something you already do, then cross that off the list, but if it isn't you may want to consider it, I have seen this work more often than not...


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## lifeistooshort

Rus47 said:


> I have never said that. Either person has agency to make their own choices. In fact what I wrote is that OP only controls himself. So, he can adjust his pace to hers or leave. He needs to choose for himself. She isnt changing, and doesnt need to.


I know you didn't and didn't mean to imply that. It was a general observation on my part.


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## DownByTheRiver

In Absentia said:


> They are mismatched, but instead of accepting reality, the OP is trying to find ways for his wife to increase her libido, which almost never happens - apart from a couple of people here on TAM...  Also, we have the usual mantra: I'm not going to divorce her. It's an impossible situation and one on them is going to be unhappy. I think I know who is going to be.


Instead of trying to find ways to increase hers, he should be doing the only thing he can really do which is control himself and decrease his. Watching p*** certainly isn't helping. That just keeps you horny and wanting unrealistic things.


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## Personal

DownByTheRiver said:


> Instead of trying to find ways to increase hers, he should be doing the only thing he can really do which is control himself and decrease his.


That really isn’t the only thing he can do at all.

For instance he could do what many humans have done throughout history and instead, seek sex with others to meet the shortfall.


----------



## snowbum

Yah that’s the decent thing to do in a marriage….good grief. Why is it the needs of the man take presedence?


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## In Absentia

Sh!t happens... OP, if you want more, resign yourself to a life of misery. Or divorce... ah, hold on...


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## oldshirt

In Absentia said:


> Open marriage or intensive masturbation...





Haus said:


> No open marriage for me. So maybe the latter.



I'm also going to refer back to Dr Psych Mom on this one as well. (FYI, Dr Samantha Rodman Whiten PhD is an actual clinical psychologist and licensed therapist in private practice and not just some red pill sex guru on the internet) 

Anyway as contradictory as this may sound initially, Porn and masturbation etc is actually NOT a good practice or coping mechanism for a troubled or unsatisfactory sex life. In the long run it will actually exacerbate the problems. 

I personally have no moral or theological issues with consensual adult porn. But on the nuts and bolt practical side of this, chronic porn and masturbation are going to make things worse. 

Porn/spanking does a variety of things that will actually work against you here. For starters, while it may feel uncomfortable to be climbing the walls and a good spank can temporarily relieve some of that pressure; that pressure and edginess is actually your friend. It motivates you to do the work. When a guy spanks and drains the tank, at least for a while it makes him sedate and inert and perfectly happy to sit around and do nuth'n. One of women's major criticisms of men is when men are sitting around doing nuth'n. This goes back to the Garden of Eden because when Eve showed up on the scene, Adam was sleeping in the middle of the day. 

As the tank fills and the pressure builds, men become more edgy and proactive. They become more engaging and more flirty and seductive. They become more willing to take risks and put themselves out there. They take more initiative. 

Remember what I said above, a woman's sexuality becomes less spontaneous and shifts to the responsive in a long term relationship. What is it that they are responsive to?? - They are responsive to a man's initiative and engagement and proactiveness. 

- Another thing against porn/spanking is that a man slinking off into the shadows to spank to porn is a HHUUUUGGGEEE turn of to women. Other than gaining 150lbs, never showering or brushing your teeth and never wiping one's ass, men spanking to porn in the dark is probably one of the biggest turn offs to women that a man can do. And trust me, they KNOW when you're doing it even if you think youre being sneaky. 

It's a huge turn off for many reasons, but the one I'll mention here is when a guy is spanking to porn, he becomes lazy and sedate. So when the time comes he does want to be with his wife, he will be sitting there with his bowl of chips and beer infront of the TV while she scrubbing the house and changing the diapers and folding the laundry and washing the dishes and he will blurt out, "Do y'wanna have sex?" And she will not see it as a bid for having some connection and closeness and pleasure.... no, she will see it as him getting all horny after watching some hard-bodied 19 year old screwing a troupe of circus midgets in a vat of Ramen Noodles and she will be pissed that he is getting all worked up watching someone else and then wants to use her to dump his load into. THAT'S how women view men spanking to porn. It is a loss of respect and admiration for him and women cannot desire men they do not respect and admire. 

- Porn also has kind of an unrealist effect on how a guy can view female sexuality. Real life middle aged women with kids and jobs and school and household chores etc are not sitting around yearning for a gang bang with circus midgets in a vat or Ramen Noodles. They are stressed about how they are going to get their TPL Reports turned in on time at work and then get the kids picked up a day care before they are charged an extra $10/minute that they are late picking them up. 

When you watch porn, you are seeing a snap shot in time into a person's life. Even if the porn chick is hornier than a three-balled billy goat in that moment in time because she has a troupe of circus midgets all telling her how hot and sexy she is and she is all hopped up on coke etc, the other 23 hours of the day and 6 days of that week are all regular daily grind for her too. 

Thinking that porn sex is realistic is like watching professional wrestling and thinking you are going to go to a bar fight and be giving your opponents pile drivers and figure-four leg locks and flying drop kicks. It's a great spectacle and great entertainment and the people doing it are to be admired for their agility and choreography and technical skill,, but it's not something that you actually employ on street. 

To wrap this all up, Mother Nature does not want most males to breed. She only wants the strongest and the fittest to pass genes on to the next generation and she assigned women to be the gate keepers of those genes. In so doing, she made females repulsed by laziness and lack of initiative. She wants men to be edgy, assertive and engaging and to put in the work. Even though they may deny it and talk against it on the Oprah Winfrey show, women dig men with initiative, assertiveness, flirtiveness and that are engaging. 

And they are repulsed by men that slink into the darkness to spank to the vision of other chicks. 

12 year old boys spank to nudie pictures. 

Adult males, approach, engage with and seduce women. 

Bottom line here is let the pressure built. Become uncomfortable. Feel the burn. Let it motivate you into action. 

She will either respond to that engagement or she won't. 

If she gets to a point she does not like you and does not want to have a marital sex life with you at all,,, then you probably won't want to be with her either and you two should probably not be together. 

That would be sad, but it would at least be a natural outcome of a natural process and not one artificially influenced by porn and your own hand.


----------



## LATERILUS79

Livvie said:


> She's not working right now... Imagine how much less sex there will potentially be once she starts working.
> 
> I do think if she started a new relationship she'd know that in order to cement the relationship she'd have to have sex more than once a week. I think she's not addressing the situation with you, because she knows you're not going anywhere.


And there it is!!!

Leave it to Livvie to spell out the logic.

I knew it was only a matter of time. 😁


this is a truth that all women know but few will actually say out loud. I call this the “sex faucet”. It is VERY EASY to open the sex faucet whenever a lower drive person (usually the woman) wants to….. they just don’t wanna!

this is where the selfishness of the low drive partner comes into play. They are more than willing to allow the high drive partner to spend hours on end to meet their needs but are unwilling to put in minutes to meet the needs of the high drive partner. If they do actually go along with sex, it is uninspired and they are just waiting for it to be over. Gee, thanks.


Haus, you are fighting a losing battle here with many of the folks here. Most high drive people on this forum (men and women) won’t speak up because the pitch forks come out in a hurry.

it doesn’t look like you were asking for twice a day. You mentioned that it started out that way. My guess is that you’d be happy with a compromise. Somewhere in the middle.

your situation is what makes me very weary of ever getting married again. I want an easy out the moment sex is taken away or used as a weapon against me. I have no ill will towards those that don’t want sex - but I find it to be very devious when a low drive person wants to start a relationship and has sex a lot only to hook you and then they take it away later. It’s a low ball move.

I can understand falling in love again and wanting to share your life with someone. I do get that - I want that too. Only difference is that I do not want to make any financial ties to a woman who could pull a bait and switch on me again. No thanks. I may fall for another bait and switch (low drive people LOVE doing this), but there won’t be a marriage in the way. Ill just point to the front door.


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## ccpowerslave

Not sure about everything oldshirt wrote there but in general I agree that porn use is an unsatisfactory replacement and it will bring things to a resolution one way or the other if one does not do this.


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## In Absentia

LATERILUS79 said:


> your situation is what makes me very weary of ever getting married again. I want an easy out the moment sex is taken away or used as a weapon against me. I have no ill will towards those that don’t want sex - but I find it to be very devious when a low drive person wants to start a relationship and has sex a lot only to hook you and then they take it away later. It’s a low ball move.


I'm not getting married again. Casual sex is the way to go...  What you are saying happens, but some people lose their drive naturally and it's not a bait and switch. I think you are being a bit too harsh here. If she has lost her drive, twice a week is a good compromise. If she hasn't and that's what she wants and is not prepared to put a little bit more effort into their sexual relationship, then she should do the honest thing and divorce her husband instead of keeping him captive, since he doesn't want a divorce..


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## hamadryad

Its sometimes surprising when people think that porn watching conditions a man to have unrealistic expectations....If that were the case, watching pro sports(which is FAR more popular than porn would ever be) would also give a guy unrealistic expectations of his physical or athletic prowess...

"its for entertainment purposes only" as they say...

I have no dog in this fight, as I am not a "regular" porn watcher and never was...but I find it hard to believe that the average 50 year old guy is bummed out because his 50 year old wife doesn't look like Jenna Jameson in her prime and can't deep throat a 2 liter bottle of soda...

And for that matter, its not much different if they aren't using porn, but beating off to a woman that looks sexy on the news or a woman that is sweating on a tennis court...In either case, they are unobtanium...


----------



## ccpowerslave

LATERILUS79 said:


> it doesn’t look like you were asking for twice a day. You mentioned that it started out that way. My guess is that you’d be happy with a compromise. Somewhere in the middle.


I found that since I have been keeping track I do not think about the lack of sex if we’re going more than 3x/week depending on what I am doing in other areas, and I would describe myself as a 1-2x a day drive person.

I now pay close attention to what my wife says. If she has a headache like last week she did for 3 days in a row I did not initiate at all. When she felt ok she came back with a vengeance.

Back in the day I would have initiated every one of those days and probably been rejected each day.

That is a stupid unforced error.

If you have an otherwise good relationship and sex just isn’t popping off and there are no physical or mental issues you really must look at your own behavior and if you’re doing things that are stupid or unattractive. If not, well then you may be done. If you are, quit it!


----------



## Rob_1

In Absentia said:


> Sh!t happens... OP, if you want more, resign yourself to a life of misery. Or divorce... ah, hold on...


We are talking about a man that waited after the first wife cheated on him for the third??? time (that he knows of), until the kids were out. That tells you that as he already said, he's not divorcing. In other words we have a man that has been passively deferring to women most of his life. So, nothing to say here. He will not get out of a relationship that although, seemingly is your standard average for his age group is not what he wants, and let's be realistic and let's come down to earth, if he's expecting his wife to somehow increase her libido after 40, he's delusional. What he is going to get is less and less as they age. 

So yeah, extreme masturbation here it comes.
There are women that after 40 still wants a lot of sex, but they are not the majority of women, not by a long shot. So even if he were to divorce and remarry the odds are (after the ring is put in the finger) that he might get even less than what's he's getting right now.

And since the side chick with wife's approval (yeah, right), is something that he will absolutely not consider, then as you said life of misery and extreme masturbation here it comes. That's OP 100% outcome.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Personal said:


> That really isn’t the only thing he can do at all.
> 
> For instance he could do what many humans have done throughout history and instead, seek sex with others to meet the shortfall.


And lose his wife in the process. Great advice.


----------



## LATERILUS79

In Absentia said:


> I'm not getting married again. Casual sex is the way to go...  What you are saying happens, but some people lose their drive naturally and it's not a bait and switch. I think you are being a bit too harsh here. If she has lost her drive, twice a week is a good compromise. If she hasn't and that's what she wants and is not prepared to put a little bit more effort into their sexual relationship, then she should do the honest thing and divorce her husband instead of keeping him captive, since he doesn't want a divorce..


What you are saying is fair.

my personal situation makes me a bit more stringent with my boundaries that I do not want crossed.

fair points, but I personally will still stay with what I said. I’m also not looking for casual sex. I would prefer only one partner, but that partner will change if sex is taken away.


----------



## LATERILUS79

ccpowerslave said:


> I found that since I have been keeping track I do not think about the lack of sex if we’re going more than 3x/week depending on what I am doing in other areas, and I would describe myself as a 1-2x a day drive person.
> 
> I now pay close attention to what my wife says. If she has a headache like last week she did for 3 days in a row I did not initiate at all. When she felt ok she came back with a vengeance.
> 
> Back in the day I would have initiated every one of those days and probably been rejected each day.
> 
> That is a stupid unforced error.
> 
> If you have an otherwise good relationship and sex just isn’t popping off and there are no physical or mental issues you really must look at your own behavior and if you’re doing things that are stupid or unattractive. If not, well then you may be done. If you are, quit it!


Your wife was telling you the truth about the headaches. That’s a good relationship. Not everyone tells the truth. 

as a fellow person that has suffered a dead bedroom, you know as well as anyone else that excuses come out of the woodwork. It’s like Santa’s never ending bag of toys, but it’s filled with excuses for low drive people.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Rob_1 said:


> We are talking about a man that waited after the first wife cheated on him for the third??? time (that he knows of), until the kids were out. That tells you that as he already said, he's not divorcing. In other words we have a man that has been passively deferring to women most of his life. So, nothing to say here. He will not get out of a relationship that although, seemingly is your standard average for his age group is not what he wants, and let's be realistic and let's come down to earth, if he's expecting his wife to somehow increase her libido after 40, he's delusional. What he is going to get is less and less as they age.
> 
> So yeah, extreme masturbation here it comes.
> There are women that after 40 still wants a lot of sex, but they are not the majority of women, not by a long shot. So even if he were to divorce and remarry the odds are (after the ring is put in the finger) that he might get even less than what's he's getting right now.
> 
> And since the side chick with wife's approval (yeah, right), is something that he will absolutely not consider, then as you said life of misery and extreme masturbation here it comes. That's OP 100% outcome.


I think he should work on changing his focus. It's his mind and body and he should have a certain amount of control over it. Should be able to control impulses and use some discipline to just refocus.


----------



## oldshirt

hamadryad said:


> Its sometimes surprising when people think that porn watching conditions a man to have unrealistic expectations....If that were the case, watching pro sports(which is FAR more popular than porn would ever be) would also give a guy unrealistic expectations of his physical or athletic prowess...
> 
> "its for entertainment purposes only" as they say...
> 
> I have no dog in this fight, as I am not a "regular" porn watcher and never was...but I find it hard to believe that the average 50 year old guy is bummed out because his 50 year old wife doesn't look like Jenna Jameson in her prime and can't deep throat a 2 liter bottle of soda...
> 
> And for that matter, its not much different if they aren't using porn, but beating off to a woman that looks sexy on the news or a woman that is sweating on a tennis court...In either case, they are unobtanium...


I don't think the whole arguement of porn creating unrealistic expectations is like what some of the posters here say where it is guys wanting to get with hard-bodied 19 year olds all the time and that their stretch marked 40something year old wife doesn't cut it. I don't believe that at all. 

What I do think that can happen is if some guy is watching porn regularly he is seeing hundreds of sexually charged women during one of the most sexually charged experiences of their lives performing in front of the camera and then comparing it to a peri menopausal wife and mother spending most of her time and energy on keeping the kids under control and getting them to where they are supposed to be and keeping the household at least hygenic and operating in an effective manner and figuring out who will be able to pick up the cat from the vet and who has paid which utility bill before it gets shut off etc etc. 

Real life isn't all that sexy or dramatic or arousing. 

So lets break it down by the numbers (which I am completely pulling out of my azz but are probably not all that far off) A guy is watching a stream of probably the top 0.001% of the most sexually open minded and sexually liberal women in the world having the top 0.001% sexually charged experiences of their lives for their viewing pleasure and then they compare that either consciously or subconsciously to their stressed and peri menopausal middle aged wife who is calling in a panic because the "Check Engine" light just came on in their car on the way to pick up the kids from school. 

It's going to be a factor and going to have an effect to one degree or another. 

Now I am not an anti porn crusader. There is some porn I really dig and there are some situations and parameters that I think porn can be positive and beneficial. 

But I think porn within the context of a couple having sexual issues is going to have a net negative effect most of the time. 

And it's something that people don't have to have, so why incur that risk.


----------



## Loves Coffee

Haus said:


> No open marriage for me. So maybe the latter. (masturbation)


If masturbation because of an unwilling wife is the answer, what is the benefit of being married? You could probably score a better sex life dating.

You'll get all types of replies: "you shouldn't expect sex. no one deserves it." "Oh, once a week is fine." etc etc. Bottom line is you said in your title that your needs aren't being met. If she won't relent when you talk reason, then you have to do the calculus about taking a harder stance and/or walking away. Either that, or accept what she gives you and sit in your place.


----------



## RebuildingMe

The minute OP said divorce was off the table, his problem became permanent.


----------



## frenchpaddy

Loves Coffee said:


> If masturbation because of an unwilling wife is the answer, what is the benefit of being married? You could probably score a better sex life dating.
> 
> You'll get all types of replies: "you shouldn't expect sex. no one deserves it." "Oh, once a week is fine." etc etc. Bottom line is you said in your title that your needs aren't being met. If she won't relent when you talk reason, then you have to do the calculus about taking a harder stance and/or walking away. Either that, or accept what she gives you and sit in your place.


for men and women that have sex on a regular amount of times a week sex is only 10% of the marriage , but for those that don't it becomes 80% of what they think about , 

So in response to your post the benefits of getting married and one is not a green card 
While anyone who is married could tell you it isn't all steak dinners and roses, , but there are still many advantages to tying the knot.


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## DownByTheRiver

Loves Coffee said:


> If masturbation because of an unwilling wife is the answer, what is the benefit of being married? You could probably score a better sex life dating.
> 
> You'll get all types of replies: "you shouldn't expect sex. no one deserves it." "Oh, once a week is fine." etc etc. Bottom line is you said in your title that your needs aren't being met. If she won't relent when you talk reason, then you have to do the calculus about taking a harder stance and/or walking away. Either that, or accept what she gives you and sit in your place.


Some people are decent enough that they don't want to subject their wives to duty sex that they will resent forever. And many wives are perfectly able to survive on their own these days especially once they find out the only thing that really matters to their husband is sex of all the things that they have in a relationship and family.


----------



## frenchpaddy

DownByTheRiver said:


> Some people are decent enough that they don't want to subject their wives to duty sex that they will resent forever. And many wives are perfectly able to survive on their own these days especially once they find out the only thing that really matters to their husband is sex of all the things that they have in a relationship and family.


any husband that looks on his wife as the only think she has to offer is sex deserves to die of the clap


----------



## Haus

DownByTheRiver said:


> Some people are decent enough that they don't want to subject their wives to duty sex that they will resent forever. And many wives are perfectly able to survive on their own these days especially once they find out the only thing that really matters to their husband is sex of all the things that they have in a relationship and family.


so you are pro-masterbating?


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Haus said:


> so you are pro-masterbating?


Sure, so long as it's not to porn. If you search for keyword "porn" on there and then check the "titles only" box, it will show you the first 500 threads about marriages affected by porn. There are many ways it can be destructive to a relationship, and it's a constant on here. 

I feel if you are genuinely horny and not just making yourself that way by watching porn or oggling women, then you shouldn't need to watch porn to get yourself off. I feel if you're horny all the time, you do need more balance in your life some way, more interests, focus on other things and stop feeding the habit best you can. 

I do know there will be times someone will be unmanageably horny. Been there for about a year in my late 40s. I'm not married, so it was just something I had to manage for myself while it lasted. It can be miserable. But certainly the last thing you should do are things to keep you sexually stimulated. The way I felt at the time was it was a big time waste that was keeping me from getting things I needed to do done.


----------



## hub49

TexasMom1216 said:


> Then I have no idea how you can have a job and do this “multiple times a day.” Seems like there would be no time for anything else. Normal work breaks are 15 minutes, not many jobs will let her leave every couple of hours for an hour each time to provide a service for you. What do you expect her to tel her boss and how long do you think they’ll tolerate her being gone half a day every day for this? Sounds like you expect her “career” to be sex. She’ll need to give up her other job, which puts her in a really bad place. It’s an old profession, but it has a shelf life.


I'm always skeptical of posters like this, who say they go multiple times a day. How does that fit into your schedule if you have a full-time job? Or hobbies? Or kids to take care of? Or just a life in general? If my wife and I were willing to go multiple times a day, my fear would be that we would get bored of each other. You can change positions, use toys, imitate porn, etc., but at the end of the day it's still the same person. I would feel the whole relationship was sex and there was nothing else holding us together. 

Based on the subject line, pick one of the two paths. Either focus on how you love her to death, or leave because your needs are not being met.


----------



## Personal

snowbum said:


> Yah that’s the decent thing to do in a marriage….good grief. Why is it the needs of the man take presedence?


Actually it is the decent thing to do. Since it would benefit @Haus and his wife. With her wanting less sex, she will be off the hook for it, so will continue to get her wants met. While he goes elsewhere to meet the shortfall of his wants being met.

Amd this isn’t about having a man taking precedence. If Haus’s wife was here looking for a solution to having a husband, who doesn’t want to share much sex with her. I would be suggesting exactly the same thing.



DownByTheRiver said:


> And lose his wife in the process. Great advice.


Of course it’s great advice. Since it would see both of them getting more of what they want (like more sex for him and less sex for her) without needing the conflict of clashing wants.

Plus it isn’t a given, he would lose her. Since like some women, she may be perfectly happy with him doing exactly that.

At the end of the day, she wants to share less sex while he wants to share more. Given that, what I am suggesting, affords a practical solution to giving them both what they want.

That said it’s a moot point. Since Haus wants to spend his time masturbating more often in lieu of sharing sex more often.



oldshirt said:


> a peri menopausal wife and mother


My wife is 52 and like lots of people, she’s been through many things. Yet as always, she still continues to enthusiastically rock a richly varied and very frequent shared sex life.

As always, those who settle for less, ensure they will get less.



> Real life isn't all that sexy or dramatic or arousing.


From experience, I can assure you it certainly can be.



> But I think porn within the context of a couple having sexual issues is going to have a net negative effect most of the time.


I don’t think turning to pornography or more of it, is a great solution at all. The better solution is for them to share more sex together. Or pending that, for her to enjoy less sex, while he scratches his itch for more shared sex elsewhere.


----------



## oldshirt

DownByTheRiver said:


> Some people are decent enough that they don't want to subject their wives to duty sex that they will resent forever. And many wives are perfectly able to survive on their own these days especially once they find out the only thing that really matters to their husband is sex of all the things that they have in a relationship and family.


Your verbiage is a little inflammatory and misandrist in nature, but I think your basic point is valid. 

If one party wants to have an intimate relationship and intimacy is important to them and the other person truly does not want to be intimate with them, then they should probably not be together. 

Both would likely be better off apart and/or with other people with whom they are more compatible.


----------



## Personal

hub49 said:


> I'm always skeptical of posters like this, who say they go multiple times a day. How does that fit into your schedule if you have a full-time job? Or hobbies? Or kids to take care of? Or just a life in general?


From experience, if you have the time and desire it fits easily.

One thing that certainly helps, is not having a long commute to and from work (5-10 minutes is my wife's commute, while my office is in our home). Plus not working stupendous hours, having frequent RDOs (fortnightly), plentiful leave (annual, long service, sick leave and carers leave). While not revolving ones life around servicing ones children, to the expense of all else (and then they grow up, ours are 22 and 19).

So for my wife and I multiple times a day occurs on all weekends, RDOs and holidays. While we have the time to keep the motor running, by sharing sex at least once a day on most of our other days.

So even with our plentiful frequency of sharing sex together. Since we have the time, we still spend far more time together not sharing sex.


----------



## DamianDamian

DownByTheRiver said:


> Most men want sex more frequently than most women do and that goes back to the dawn of time. There are exceptions and there are reverse situations, but in general it's a true statement. I'm from an older generation and I can tell you that men used to just accept that more than they do now that they're exposed to porn and the internet. If you want to totally kill her desire, keep pushing for more when she's not wanting it instead of relishing it when she is. Don't make it a chore for her or you'll kill it.


So it's all about her, her needs, her desire and he just has to live with it? Lol such a selfish perspective.
In the past women had more duty sex - it wasn't this horrible frowned upon thing. Why should a man be faithful to a woman that doesn't meet his needs?


----------



## DamianDamian

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Your right or left hand, whichever you prefer.
> 
> Shocker. A guy wants sex every day. 🙄
> 
> Your purpose for wanting sex every day is not to "bond" with her or you wouldn't be masturbating to porn every day you don't have sex. I laugh every time a guy claims he wants sex every day because he wants to intimately bond with his wife. What a crock.


It doesn't matter why he wants it. And yes sex does help men bond. When the sex drops off the conversation drops off and men care less and less.


----------



## Personal

DamianDamian said:


> In the past women had more duty sex - it wasn't this horrible frowned upon thing.


Uggh, well it must have sucked to be them. Of which it ought to be frowned upon. Since duty sex, is most likely to diminish sexual desire over time, instead of generating more of it.

So if someone wants to share more sex with their wife, they would do well to avoid extinguishing desire through duty sex, and instead spend their time sharing things that nurture sexual desire.


----------



## bob997

Haus said:


> No, I expressed my needs and she chose to go to counseling as did I. If porn is cheating then I’m guilty, however it serves as a snack between actual meals. No where near as satisfying, bonding, or intimate, but it is an activity I have 100% control over, unlike sex with my gorgeous spouse. 🤷🏼‍♂️


you make it sound like your wife is just your first choice receptacle to jizz into… hope she ain’t picking up on that vibe…


----------



## frenchpaddy

what about birth controls is she on any , she is in med school she knows more about this than the likes of me , you seem to give the impression that everything is perfect exceph your wife just gone off the sex or not into it as much , do you talk to her and does she talk to you about what she likes and don't like , and make her feel it is safe for her to say she does not like something , 

what if she was to tell you that your not doing it right are you willing to change for her 
I know most men think because they see sex portrayed in porn as the woman loves her legs spread wide out ,
but your wife is older or she might have back pain or getting stiffer , or there can be so many things she might even feel the passion you are using is too much for her , it might be worth talking about this


----------



## Loves Coffee

DownByTheRiver said:


> And many wives are perfectly able to survive on their own these days especially once they find out the only thing that really matters to their husband is sex of all the things that they have in a relationship and family.


Hi, nice to meet you. I do wonder if their parents ever had a birds and bees type of talk with the wives you spoke of if they are only finding out about sex drives after being married for some time. Men only wanting one thing sounds kind of 80's sitcom to me.


----------



## Haus

bob997 said:


> you make it sound like your wife is just your first choice receptacle to jizz into… hope she ain’t picking up on that vibe…


Guilty, I do enjoy intimacy with my wife over my hand. If that was not the case, why would you or I ever get married, based on your insinuation?


----------



## oldshirt

Loves Coffee said:


> . Men only wanting one thing sounds kind of 80's sitcom to me.


I had to chuckle. There was some kind of goofy summer camp movie back in the 80s. 

The comedian Elaine Boosler had a bit speaking role where she was a mom dropping off her adolescent daughter at camp and she admonished the girl To stay away from boys because they, quote, “only want one thing.”

The daughter asked, “what’s wrong with that?”

To which the mom replied, “they never want it when you want it.” 😆


----------



## drencrom

Haus said:


> Started counseling to figure out if my sex drive is normal. Turns out I am. Seems like some cruel joke where men like sex daily and women 1-2x per week. I’m generalizing how I feel so don’t get offended. If her slogan is,”less often increases desire,” then mine would be “*who do you want me to desire in between you building yours*?”


Ohhh, man. Not good. I hope you didn't say that to her, much less think it.


----------



## bob997

Haus said:


> Guilty, I do enjoy intimacy with my wife over my hand. If that was not the case, why would you or I ever get married, based on your insinuation?





Haus said:


> Guilty, I do enjoy intimacy with my wife over my hand. If that was not the case, why would you or I ever get married, based on your insinuation?


just saying she’s probably hurt. Maybe she thinks she’s special and what you have together is special… and you’re here complaining about once/twice per week.

You going to expect twice per week when she’s having your baby or two… good luck with that.


----------



## LisaDiane

DownByTheRiver said:


> Some people are decent enough that they don't want to subject their wives to duty sex that they will resent forever. And many wives are perfectly able to survive on their own these days especially once they find out the only thing that really matters to their husband is sex of all the things that they have in a relationship and family.


I see this the opposite way -- some people are decent enough that they keep the sexual promise they made when they asked their partners to be monogamous, of meeting their sexual needs and caring about how they feel sexually.

It might also be hurtful and shocking when a husband finds out that his wife doesn't care about him as a man and a sexual person anymore, and only cares about him as a husband appliance who can give her everything SHE needs and wants. 

@Haus it IS NOT selfish or dysfunctional to have a sex drive and to expect your monogamous partner to meet your needs. What you are willing to do to make that happen is up to you.


----------



## Haus

bob997 said:


> just saying she’s probably hurt. Maybe she thinks she’s special and what you have together is special… and you’re here complaining about once/twice per week.
> 
> You going to expect twice per week when she’s having your baby or two… good luck with that.


We chose to not have children and enjoy travel and fun weekends instead. 🤷🏼‍♂️


----------



## Marc878

Haus said:


> No kids together, we had 2 each from our prior marriages. Last kiddo of hers is 1 1/2 years away from HS graduation.
> 
> She is starting a new career and going to college full time. She graduates this December.
> 
> I’ve done counseling on my own s far and shared all my thoughts and feelings. It increased for a bit when she found out I was not satisfied, but it’s now slipping and on track to return to 2x a week.


Find someone you are compatible with and let her go.


----------



## LATERILUS79

LisaDiane said:


> I see this the opposite way -- some people are decent enough that they keep the sexual promise they made when they asked their partners to be monogamous, of meeting their sexual needs and caring about how they feel sexually.
> 
> It might also be hurtful and shocking when a husband finds out that his wife doesn't care about him as a man and a sexual person anymore, and only cares about him as a husband appliance who can give her everything SHE needs and wants.
> 
> @Haus it IS NOT selfish or dysfunctional to have a sex drive and to expect your monogamous partner to meet your needs. What you are willing to do to make that happen is up to you.


I knew the voice of reason would be stopping by this thread eventually. 😁


----------



## Livvie

bob997 said:


> just saying she’s probably hurt. Maybe she thinks she’s special and what you have together is special… and you’re here complaining about once/twice per week.
> 
> You going to expect twice per week when she’s having your baby or two… good luck with that.


🤣 Did you read the thread?

She's not having any of his babies. She had children with a previous husband, not him, and they are grown and last one almost out of the house.


----------



## lifeistooshort

LisaDiane said:


> I see this the opposite way -- some people are decent enough that they keep the sexual promise they made when they asked their partners to be monogamous, of meeting their sexual needs and caring about how they feel sexually.
> 
> It might also be hurtful and shocking when a husband finds out that his wife doesn't care about him as a man and a sexual person anymore, and only cares about him as a husband appliance who can give her everything SHE needs and wants.
> 
> @Haus it IS NOT selfish or dysfunctional to have a sex drive and to expect your monogamous partner to meet your needs. What you are willing to do to make that happen is up to you.


She doesn't care about him as a man? That seems s bit extreme given that they are having sex a couple of times a week.

Perhaps they can work out a compromise, bur it seens over the top to suggest that unless she puts out daily she doesn't care about him sexually. Have I missed something?

And let's say she does put out daily. Is a certain level of feigned enthusiasm required as well? I'm trying to gage where a good compromising might be here.


----------



## hamadryad

lifeistooshort said:


> She doesn't care about him as a man? That seems s bit extreme given that they are having sex a couple of times a week.
> 
> Perhaps they can work out a compromise, bur it seens over the top to suggest that unless she puts out daily she doesn't care about him sexually. Have I missed something?
> 
> And let's say she does put out daily. Is a certain level of feigned enthusiasm required as well? I'm trying to gage where a good compromising might be here.


For all he/we know, those 2 times are just to get him off her back.


----------



## LisaDiane

lifeistooshort said:


> She doesn't care about him as a man? That seems s bit extreme given that they are having sex a couple of times a week.
> 
> Perhaps they can work out a compromise, bur it seens over the top to suggest that unless she puts out daily she doesn't care about him sexually. Have I missed something?
> 
> And let's say she does put out daily. Is a certain level of feigned enthusiasm required as well? I'm trying to gage where a good compromising might be here.


Well, I wasn't answering that way to HIM specifically, I was deliberately responding to the extreme view that was in the post I quoted, where she insinuated that he (and other men) only cared about his wife for sex, which I believe is untrue and unfair about most men who are stuck in marriages where there sexual needs aren't being met (no matter how many times a week other people deem "enough").

I addressed him and his situation specifically at the end.


----------



## LATERILUS79

lifeistooshort said:


> She doesn't care about him as a man? That seems s bit extreme given that they are having sex a couple of times a week.
> 
> Perhaps they can work out a compromise, bur it seens over the top to suggest that unless she puts out daily she doesn't care about him sexually. Have I missed something?
> 
> And let's say she does put out daily. Is a certain level of feigned enthusiasm required as well? I'm trying to gage where a good compromising might be here.


LIfeistooshort, I typically love 90% of your posts.

I cannot agree with you here.

I can’t remember your whole story with your exes, but if you haven’t been through a dead bedroom, it is very difficult to understand our perspective (those of us that have suffered through it).

I find LisaDiane’s words to be passionate in the way she speaks about this subject because she’s been there as well.

from the logical and practical standpoint you are coming from, I get what you are saying. Once or twice a week should be “enough”. I think everyone has their own cut off point where the frequency and quality cutoff point is for a dead bedroom. I don’t think it is fair for anyone to put their definition into someone else.
I cringe every time a new dead bedroom person comes here. They get destroyed.

“you get enough sex”

“stop trying to coerce sex”

“all you care about is sex”

“You are forcing duty sex you terrible person!”


along with all the other lines that get thrown our way. I can’t WAIT to hear what’s coming my way when I finally share everything that happened in my marriage.

if the OP was clear that he wanted it more than once a week and then it was taken away and there is no compromise, then that sucks. I feel sorry for him.

but I do agree with you completely that a compromise should be attempted to bridge the gap between the sex drive of the two people. I think that is a good logical way to go about it.

I understand exactly what LD meant when she said that the wife didn’t care about OP as man. I know exactly what that feels like. It is a feeling of worthlessness. You end up feeling completely unlovable. I felt like I was used to just provide. I wasn’t loved in the way that I needed - but I went out of my way to meet her needs for her love languages. Maybe OP has not? I dont know.


----------



## lifeistooshort

LisaDiane said:


> Well, I wasn't answering that way to HIM specifically, I was deliberately responding to the extreme view that was in the post I quoted, where she insinuated that he (and other men) only cared about his wife for sex, which I believe is untrue and unfair about most men who are stuck in marriages where there sexual needs aren't being met (no matter how many times a week other people deem "enough").
> 
> I addressed him and his situation specifically at the end.


Ok, I understand. I certainly don't think most men only care their wives for sex. It is true that what constitutes enough is subjective, I just think it's a mistake to assume that he gets to decide what's "enough" in his marriage. 

So of he wants it daily and she wants it twice a week they should probably shoot for 3-4 times a week. IMHO


----------



## lifeistooshort

LATERILUS79 said:


> LIfeistooshort, I typically love 90% of your posts.
> 
> I cannot agree with you here.
> 
> I can’t remember your whole story with your exes, but if you haven’t been through a dead bedroom, it is very difficult to understand our perspective (those of us that have suffered through it).
> 
> I find LisaDiane’s words to be passionate in the way she speaks about this subject because she’s been there as well.
> 
> from the logical and practical standpoint you are coming from, I get what you are saying. Once or twice a week should be “enough”. I think everyone has their own cut off point where the frequency and quality cutoff point is for a dead bedroom. I don’t think it is fair for anyone to put their definition into someone else.
> I cringe every time a new dead bedroom person comes here. They get destroyed.
> 
> “you get enough sex”
> 
> “stop trying to coerce sex”
> 
> “all you care about is sex”
> 
> “You are forcing duty sex you terrible person!”
> 
> 
> along with all the other lines that get thrown our way. I can’t WAIT to hear what’s coming my way when I finally share everything that happened in my marriage.
> 
> if the OP was clear that he wanted it more than once a week and then it was taken away and there is no compromise, then that sucks. I feel sorry for him.
> 
> but I do agree with you completely that a compromise should be attempted to bridge the gap between the sex drive of the two people. I think that is a good logical way to go about it.
> 
> I understand exactly what LD meant when she said that the wife didn’t care about OP as man. I know exactly what that feels like. It is a feeling of worthlessness. You end up feeling completely unlovable. I felt like I was used to just provide. I wasn’t loved in the way that I needed - but I went out of my way to meet her needs for her love languages. Maybe OP has not? I dont know.


Well it would be boring if we agreed all the time, no?

I kind of understand in that my ex had bad ED he wouldn't deal with, and even before it got bad he was never good for more then 2x per week.

I'm having a hard time here because they don't have a dead bedroom....he's getting it twice a week. And I don't recall anyone in an actual dead bedroom getting destroyed here.....we all know that's miserable.

But life happens, so what is reasonable to expect long term? This is where I struggle.


----------



## lifeistooshort

hamadryad said:


> For all he/we know, those 2 times are just to get him off her back.


Perhaps, but I don't know that it's fair to assume unless he states it.

He's here looking for more, not complaining of starfish sex.


----------



## frenchpaddy

lifeistooshort said:


> She doesn't care about him as a man? That seems s bit extreme given that they are having sex a couple of times a week.
> 
> Perhaps they can work out a compromise, bur it seens over the top to suggest that unless she puts out daily she doesn't care about him sexually. Have I missed something?
> 
> And let's say she does put out daily. Is a certain level of feigned enthusiasm required as well? I'm trying to gage where a good compromising might be here.


yes and then your into duty sex and we can through in faking it if he blows his load in under 1.50 min 

yes and he did say she is into looking at porn and bdsm 
may be she needs to dress up more too as well


----------



## Personal

LisaDiane said:


> which I believe is untrue and unfair about most men who are stuck in marriages where there sexual needs aren't being met (no matter how many times a week other people deem "enough").


And that's also true for women, who are stuck in marriages where their sexual needs aren't being met.


----------



## Personal

lifeistooshort said:


> I just think it's a mistake to assume that he gets to decide what's "enough" in his marriage.


I also think it is a mistake to assume that @Haus gets to unilaterally decide what's "enough" in his marriage. By the same token I also think it is an equal mistake to assume that Haus's wife get's to unilaterally decide what is "enough" in her marriage.

If they can reach a compromise and meet somewhere in the middle, terrific.

On the other hand if they can't meet somewhere in the middle and neither of them are willing to compromise, yet they both remain unwilling to pull the plug on their marriage.

Then the best they can do is afford each other what they want. So she get's less sex, with the status quo being maintained for her. While he then tries to meet the shortfall as required, with other sexual partners elsewhere.


----------



## Mystic Moon

Personally, if my partner met all of my emotional, mental, and intellectual needs, and wasn't quite up to par with my physical needs, but the sex was still amazing, just not frequent enough, I would consider myself lucky! 

I'd rather have most of my needs met, and lack a little sex, than feel emotionally empty, but had sex 5 times a week. (I've had that, it got boring and frustrating quickly Great sex, but the rest sucked!) I'd rather be fulfilled in other ways, and enjoy great sex twice a week being good enough, because I was so satisfied in other ways. jmo


----------



## ccpowerslave

lifeistooshort said:


> And let's say she does put out daily. Is a certain level of feigned enthusiasm required as well?


If the partner is not participating and is just lying there that’s gross.



lifeistooshort said:


> But life happens, so what is reasonable to expect long term? This is where I struggle.


Does it really take that much effort? Think of all the stuff you do every day. I do a ton of stuff every day and I’m highly efficient with my time. I have no issues with slotting in 45 minutes for intimacy at this stage in life.

I went to bed at 9pm last night. I ask Mrs if she is coming to bed and she says no because blah blah something work. She didn’t get much done yesterday. Ok… So can you come to bed for a bit and then work? No.

I woke up around 12:45am and she’s in bed tapping away on her phone like I am now at 3:15am (had to use restroom).

So it’s not a matter of “life” and being too busy, it’s literally they don’t want to have sex. Let’s call it what it is. In my wife’s case she knew I wanted to have sex with her last night and she’s like nah sorry bro I’m going to uh do whatever and tap away on my phone.

I mean I believe her, she would rather do whatever she did. It doesn’t feel good though.


----------



## frenchpaddy

ccpowerslave said:


> If the partner is not participating and is just lying there that’s gross.
> 
> 
> 
> Does it really take that much effort? Think of all the stuff you do every day. I do a ton of stuff every day and I’m highly efficient with my time. I have no issues with slotting in 45 minutes for intimacy at this stage in life.
> 
> I went to bed at 9pm last night. I ask Mrs if she is coming to bed and she says no because blah blah something work. She didn’t get much done yesterday. Ok… So can you come to bed for a bit and then work? No.
> 
> I woke up around 12:45am and she’s in bed tapping away on her phone like I am now at 3:15am (had to use restroom).
> 
> So it’s not a matter of “life” and being too busy, it’s literally they don’t want to have sex. Let’s call it what it is. In my wife’s case she knew I wanted to have sex with her last night and she’s like nah sorry bro I’m going to uh do whatever and tap away on my phone.
> 
> I mean I believe her, she would rather do whatever she did. It doesn’t feel good though.


 I got in last night , we looked at telly for a bit , I was falling asleep wife said lets go to bed , but I was no longer in bed and fast asleep so she fell back to her first love as they say , 
dog woke us around 4am and I had a hard on in moving in the bed she know so she gave me a bj , 

but then I could not get back to sleep


----------



## lifeistooshort

ccpowerslave said:


> If the partner is not participating and is just lying there that’s gross.
> 
> 
> 
> Does it really take that much effort? Think of all the stuff you do every day. I do a ton of stuff every day and I’m highly efficient with my time. I have no issues with slotting in 45 minutes for intimacy at this stage in life.
> 
> I went to bed at 9pm last night. I ask Mrs if she is coming to bed and she says no because blah blah something work. She didn’t get much done yesterday. Ok… So can you come to bed for a bit and then work? No.
> 
> I woke up around 12:45am and she’s in bed tapping away on her phone like I am now at 3:15am (had to use restroom).
> 
> So it’s not a matter of “life” and being too busy, it’s literally they don’t want to have sex. Let’s call it what it is. In my wife’s case she knew I wanted to have sex with her last night and she’s like nah sorry bro I’m going to uh do whatever and tap away on my phone.
> 
> I mean I believe her, she would rather do whatever she did. It doesn’t feel good though.


Yeah, I understand....it's tough. I seldom turn my bf away....maybe a few times when I've been bleeding a lot or really haven't felt good and he seemed ok with that. I enjoy the closeness. He had a surgery once safe couldn’t do much for a couple of months and I understood, so life happens.

Is it clear whether he tries more often and is turned away or is he waiting for signals that she's good for it?


----------



## ccpowerslave

lifeistooshort said:


> Yeah, I understand....it's tough. I seldom turn my bf away....maybe a few times when I've been bleeding a lot or really haven't felt good and he seemed ok with that.


Yeah this isn’t that. If you’re sick, injured, have a medical issue, or even literally exhausted then of course there’s no problem.

The thing is in many cases they just don’t feel like it and don’t care about what the other person wants at that time.


----------



## ccpowerslave

lifeistooshort said:


> Is it clear whether he tries more often and is turned away or is he waiting for signals that she's good for it?


We kind of got past the signaling stage. I suspected she wouldn’t be interested yesterday because we had sex the previous 4 days and she rarely goes 5+.

Why not? I dunno. Didn’t feel like it. Maybe like many of the TAM “be happy with what you get” crew she thinks that’s enough. I suppose I could just ask her and see what she says. I have a feeling the real reason is she’s lazy.


----------



## lifeistooshort

ccpowerslave said:


> We kind of got past the signaling stage. I suspected she wouldn’t be interested yesterday because we had sex the previous 4 days and she rarely goes 5+.
> 
> Why not? I dunno. Didn’t feel like it. Maybe like many of the TAM “be happy with what you get” crew she thinks that’s enough. I suppose I could just ask her and see what she says. I have a feeling the real reason is she’s lazy.


Sometimes I just need a rest. Gives me time to think about it.

We had sex this morning after being off for a few days and it was great....an O kind of day for me.


----------



## Haus

hamadryad said:


> For all he/we know, those 2 times are just to get him off her back.


Dead fish sex is not intimacy.


----------



## In Absentia

lifeistooshort said:


> So of he wants it daily and she wants it twice a week they should probably shoot for 3-4 times a week. IMHO


I get the impression she wants it twice a month, but she is compromising and her compromise is twice a week. Not enough? Prostitutes are still cheap these days, but hurry up, because the cost of living is putting pressure on paid sex too.


----------



## hamadryad

Haus said:


> Dead fish sex is not intimacy.


No argument.....

But it would stand to reason that it would have to raise some doubt....In my mind anyway...

She knows you want more, she had given you more in the past, but now she's not interested in more...Sex isn't like digging a ditch, its supposed to be relaxing and fun.....and unlike a man, she doesn't have to worry about the tools not being up to the task...

For all anyone knows(and obviously you would know better than us), she is wild and enthusiastic about sex, but only a couple of times a week...I'd be concerned that its the type of thing where she's come up with something that she feels keeps you satisfied enough...

One way you could test this, I suppose, is to not initiate for a while...Just stop entirely....If she goes about her business, never initiates, and doesn't ever bring it up, you probably have the answer... At the end of the day, I wouldn't be thrilled about it, but I would probably be ok with 2x a week, if she was really enthusiastic about it and I didn't think it was just a chore for her to keep you from leaving or getting too bent out of shape...


----------



## DownByTheRiver

LisaDiane said:


> I see this the opposite way -- some people are decent enough that they keep the sexual promise they made when they asked their partners to be monogamous, of meeting their sexual needs and caring about how they feel sexually.
> 
> It might also be hurtful and shocking when a husband finds out that his wife doesn't care about him as a man and a sexual person anymore, and only cares about him as a husband appliance who can give her everything SHE needs and wants.
> 
> @Haus it IS NOT selfish or dysfunctional to have a sex drive and to expect your monogamous partner to meet your needs. What you are willing to do to make that happen is up to you.


I don't know any women who made a sexual promise when they got married or who got married for sex.


----------



## Enigma32

ccpowerslave said:


> Yeah this isn’t that. If you’re sick, injured, have a medical issue, or even literally exhausted then of course there’s no problem.
> 
> The thing is in many cases *they just don’t feel like it and don’t care about what the other person wants at that time.*


Sex is one of those things where if you don't want to do it, you really shouldn't do it. 

If your wife doesn't want to do it and you do, do you care what the other person wants at that time?


----------



## Enigma32

I think a lot of people in relationships where the sex drives of both people don't match seem to be incapable of seeing things from the perspective of the other person. Let's say you wanna do it 1x a day and your partner wants it 2x a week. Maybe you feel frustrated or disappointed with your partner not just giving you sex the 1x a day you want. But what do you do if you want it 1x a day and your partner wants it 5x a day? Or more? What if you work a lot of hours and your partner, even though you already had sex with them 2x that day, wakes you up in the middle of your sleep because they want it AGAIN? I have been there and maybe it sounds like a dream to some guys out there but it's not.


----------



## Marc878

Sex is the glue that keeps a marriage together. You cannot fix incompatibility.
Manipulation techniques are a waste of time.
You have a choice.


----------



## ccpowerslave

Enigma32 said:


> Sex is one of those things where if you don't want to do it, you really shouldn't do it.
> 
> If your wife doesn't want to do it and you do, do you care what the other person wants at that time?


Not really, no. It depends on what they’re skipping it for. If it’s to scroll Instagram or Facebook then yeah I don’t care about them doing that. If it’s to cure childhood cancer, then maybe I’d care a bit more.

Like what does “not want to do it” even mean?

1. You’re disgusted by partner and not attracted to them. Ok, fair enough, but then why are you with them?

2. You have a physical issue. Fair enough.

3. You have a mental issue. Fair enough. This doesn’t have to be an illness, it could be you’re in the wrong head space because your dog died or you have anxiety about an actual issue.

4. You literally do not have time because you are busy with something that needs to happen in order to avoid negative consequences. Fair enough.

5. You just don’t feel like it and don’t even want to take the effort to bother to try. This is not ok at least in my book.



Enigma32 said:


> But what do you do if you want it 1x a day and your partner wants it 5x a day? Or more?


What if the sex is fine for some period like YEARS. In my case probably around 6-7 years. That is long enough to attach yourself to that person and then the rug slowly gets pulled out from under you. So there is no mismatch or anything from my perspective initially otherwise I WOULD NOT have married in the first place because only an idiot would do that (although we see that regularly on TAM).

So let’s say you’re starting from a baseline of compatibility or a good fake approximation of it and then your partner gradually or immediately stops.

Uh oh, what now?

Well I ate all the BS cliches about sex drying up and the 7 year itch and all that garbage and I became a pro level masturbating devil. It was stupid and I wasted a lot of time I can never have back.

So now I go back to my checklist and I have at least reasonable sex again to where it’s not making me want a divorce.

It’s a bit off topic but yesterday by accident I got additional insight into my wife without her even realizing it. Probably need a thread on that.


----------



## Enigma32

ccpowerslave said:


> Not really, no. It depends on what they’re skipping it for. If it’s to scroll Instagram or Facebook then yeah I don’t care about them doing that. If it’s to cure childhood cancer, then maybe I’d care a bit more.
> 
> Like what does “not want to do it” even mean?
> 
> 1. You’re disgusted by partner and not attracted to them. Ok, fair enough, but then why are you with them?
> 
> 2. You have a physical issue. Fair enough.
> 
> 3. You have a mental issue. Fair enough. This doesn’t have to be an illness, it could be you’re in the wrong head space because your dog died or you have anxiety about an actual issue.
> 
> 4. You literally do not have time because you are busy with something that needs to happen in order to avoid negative consequences. Fair enough.
> 
> 5. *You just don’t feel like it and don’t even want to take the effort to bother to try. This is not ok at least in my book.*


This is completely unreasonable. You are insisting that someone have a physiological response just because you want them to. Attraction and reality simply does not work that way. Just like you cannot be expected to have sex without an erection, you cannot expect your wife to wanna jump your bones when her engine is not going. You can't force that sort of thing, and trying to force it will just make it worse.


----------



## ccpowerslave

Enigma32 said:


> This is completely unreasonable. You are insisting that someone have a physiological response just because you want them to. Attraction and reality simply does not work that way. Just like you cannot be expected to have sex without an erection, you cannot expect your wife to wanna jump your bones when her engine is not going. You can't force that sort of thing, and trying to force it will just make it worse.


I never demanded she initiate. 

I ask she makes herself available to be responsive.

If her answer to that is sorry hun not tonight because there’s a new episode of Family Feud on, to me that’s not cool.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

Enigma32 said:


> This is completely unreasonable. You are insisting that someone have a physiological response just because you want them to. Attraction and reality simply does not work that way. Just like you cannot be expected to have sex without an erection, you cannot expect your wife to wanna jump your bones when her engine is not going. You can't force that sort of thing, and trying to force it will just make it worse.


I think a good partner will at least give you a chance to get them turned on. If you fail to get their engine running once in a while, we'll that's the way it goes. If you fail to turn them on time and time again you need to work on understanding why that is and consider that you may need to part ways. If the romance is dead then their isn't much of a marriage for someone that values sex and intimacy.


----------



## Enigma32

BigDaddyNY said:


> *I think a good partner will at least give you a chance to get them turned on.* If you fail to get their engine running once in a while, we'll that's the way it goes. If you fail to turn them on time and time again you need to work on understanding why that is and consider that you may need to part ways. If the romance is dead then their isn't much of a marriage for someone that values sex and intimacy.


You do get a chance. All day. And if your idea of getting them turned on is to ask them to have sex at the end of the day, don't be surprised if it doesn't work.

It's not a matter of romance being completely dead, it's just a matter of hormones making people want sex more or less often. That's all this is. People can either accept that reality or not but it won't change just because they want it to.


----------



## ccpowerslave

Enigma32 said:


> It's not a matter of romance being completely dead, it's just a matter of hormones making people want sex more or less often. That's all this is. People can either accept that reality or not but it won't change just because they want it to.


Well one thing we agree on is things won’t change just by wishing they will.


----------



## Enigma32

ccpowerslave said:


> Well one thing we agree on is things won’t change just by wishing they will.


I know it has to be frustrating but you have to stop taking it personally. It's just her hormones. You simply can't force someone to want sex more than they do. Everyone has a rate they prefer and if 2x a week is what she likes, it's what she likes. It's the same reason you don't just suddenly want to do it less.


----------



## ccpowerslave

Enigma32 said:


> I know it has to be frustrating but you have to stop taking it personally. It's just her hormones. You simply can't force someone to want sex more than they do. Everyone has a rate they prefer and if 2x a week is what she likes, it's what she likes. It's the same reason you don't just suddenly want to do it less.


Easy. So when she gets physically horny once a year oh well that’s all you can do?

Not really I think.

For one thing if it’s just hormones as you say in theory you can take a pill. I think it’s more than that.


----------



## ccpowerslave

Enigma32 said:


> You simply can't force someone to want sex more than they do.


I think there’s a classic scene from Three Amigos about this. Something about not being able to force open the petals of a delicate flower.


----------



## Enigma32

ccpowerslave said:


> Easy. So when she gets physically horny once a year oh well that’s all you can do?
> 
> Not really I think.


Is that what you are dealing with, once a year?



> For one thing if it’s just hormones as you say in theory you can take a pill. I think it’s more than that.


There is a reason things like hormonal birth control and menopause affect a woman's sex drive. It's the hormonal change. The same reason a man's sexual peak is around 19 when his testosterone levels usually peak. That is mostly what governs your sex drive. I don't know what other explanation you are looking for unless you just want to believe she finds you revolting or something, which I doubt is the case.


----------



## ccpowerslave

Enigma32 said:


> Is that what you are dealing with, once a year?
> 
> 
> 
> There is a reason things like hormonal birth control and menopause affect a woman's sex drive. It's the hormonal change. The same reason a man's sexual peak is around 19 when his testosterone levels usually peak. That is mostly what governs your sex drive. I don't know what other explanation you are looking for unless you just want to believe she finds you revolting or something, which I doubt is the case.


Wait so there’s a limit then? How much is acceptable and attributable to hormones? Once a year is too little?

As soon as you have a limit in mind you’re arguing price not principle.

If there is a chemical imbalance and that cures a dead bedroom I’d expect whatever that is would fly off the shelves.


----------



## Enigma32

ccpowerslave said:


> Wait so there’s a limit then? How much is acceptable and attributable to hormones? Once a year is too little?
> 
> As soon as you have a limit in mind you’re arguing price not principle.
> 
> If there is a chemical imbalance and that cures a dead bedroom I’d expect whatever that is would fly off the shelves.


Whether or not there is a chemical imbalance will likely be determined by what is considered the norm. The average married couple has sex 2x a week so if your wife's sex drive falls somewhere close to that average, then there is no imbalance, she's just normal.


----------



## Diana7

LATERILUS79 said:


> Is it fair to say to another what they need in a relationship? If he (or she) needs sex every day to feel loved and appreciated, then that js what he needs. It js OK that you wouldn't leave someone over that. I get that and truly do understand.
> 
> I would leave a marriage over only getting sex once a week.


I always think compromise is a good idea in a marriage. If he must have sex every day to feel loved and appreciated then I would say he is too needy. A compromise of say 3 times a week may work.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

Enigma32 said:


> You do get a chance. All day. And if your idea of getting them turned on is to ask them to have sex at the end of the day, don't be surprised if it doesn't work.
> 
> It's not a matter of romance being completely dead, it's just a matter of hormones making people want sex more or less often. That's all this is. People can either accept that reality or not but it won't change just because they want it to.


Yes, it can be an all day process, but I never ask my wife for sex. Someone who doesn't have a very spontaneous desire, as in sex is on their mind regularly, isn't likely to ever say yes to a direct ask for sex. In spite of it not always being on her mind my wife loves and enjoys sex with me, but if in any given moment I say, "hey wanna go have sex?" I'm going to get told no a lot. All I ask is let me do some of the small things that start to get her turned on. Let me build some of that anticipation to an act you enjoy once you are into it. Don't push me away immediately when I start that initiation process, give me that opportunity to turn you on. I know what gets my wife in the mood. I know if I get her relaxed and we have lots of physical contact I can get her in the mood. She knows that too. She could just shut that down because at the start she isn't interested in sex, but let me do those things I know she likes and most of the time she will get in the mood and we will have sex. Other times it goes no further than those precursors to sex. I have no problem accepting that.

We've seen it here a lot where a wife will engage in wild sex with an affair partner while shutting out their husband. Or rarely having sex with their husband, but when they divorce and get into a new relationship suddenly it is sex everyday. When that happens hormonal changes aren't what drove that behavior. Yes, hormones have an impact on sex drive, but in a lot of these cases it is just a matter of no longer wanting sex with their husband. The romance is gone from the relationship for some reason. Since I see marriage as a romantic relationship, if the romance is gone and can't be recovered I think the marriage is dead or at least in peril.

I think marriage requires a lot of selflessness and a strong desire to understand and meet your spouses needs. Among many other things, this also includes sex and intimacy. I will say that a lot of husbands fall down hard on selflessness. They think they can go about their lives doing whatever they want, not meeting their wife's basic needs, then expect to get sex without hardly any effort put into initiation. I don't feel bad for them. However, if they are meeting all the needs of their wife, are a good partner in life, husband and father to the kids the wife should reciprocate. Which again, includes sex and intimacy since marriage is a sexual relationship. If your spouse loves and enjoys sex with you, which if they don't then there is the problem, they should pretty much always be willing to give you a chance to get them in the mood.


----------



## hamadryad

BigDaddyNY said:


> Yes, it can be an all day process, but I never ask my wife for sex. Someone who doesn't have a very spontaneous desire, as in sex is on their mind regularly, isn't likely to ever say yes to a direct ask for sex. In spite of it not always being on her mind my wife loves and enjoys sex with me, but if in any given moment I say, "hey wanna go have sex?" I'm going to get told no a lot. All I ask is let me do some of the small things that start to get her turned on. Let me build some of that anticipation to an act you enjoy once you are into it. Don't push me away immediately when I start that initiation process, give me that opportunity to turn you on. I know what gets my wife in the mood. I know if I get her relaxed and we have lots of physical contact I can get her in the mood. She knows that too. She could just shut that down because at the start she isn't interested in sex, but let me do those things I know she likes and most of the time she will get in the mood and we will have sex. Other times it goes no further than those precursors to sex. I have no problem accepting that.
> 
> *We've seen it here a lot where a wife will engage in wild sex with an affair partner while shutting out their husband. Or rarely having sex with their husband, but when they divorce and get into a new relationship suddenly it is sex everyday. When that happens hormonal changes aren't what drove that behavior. Yes, hormones have an impact on sex drive, but in a lot of these cases it is just a matter of no longer wanting sex with their husband. The romance is gone from the relationship for some reason. Since I see marriage as a romantic relationship, if the romance is gone and can't be recovered I think the marriage is dead or at least in peril.*
> 
> I think marriage requires a lot of selflessness and a strong desire to understand and meet your spouses needs. Among many other things, this also includes sex and intimacy. I will say that a lot of husbands fall down hard on selflessness. They think they can go about their lives doing whatever they want, not meeting their wife's basic needs, then expect to get sex without hardly any effort put into initiation. I don't feel bad for them. However, if they are meeting all the needs of their wife, are a good partner in life, husband and father to the kids the wife should reciprocate. Which again, includes sex and intimacy since marriage is a sexual relationship. If your spouse loves and enjoys sex with you, which if they don't then there is the problem, they should pretty much always be willing to give you a chance to get them in the mood.


Good post, and I agree with most of it....

The bolded part is what I always go back to...I don't think humans were biologically programmed to be monogamous for a lifetime...Proof of this abounds everywhere,,,,If sex falls off for no apparent reason(as is often the case) and either party would be eagerly engaging in sex with someone else, when given the opportunity, then really what more proof does anyone need? 

I think its important for people to take this into account, rather than create all these other scenarios, that really are just smokescreens in many cases...More importantly, its never been more vital to consider sexual attraction and chemistry when selecting a mate...You will need to in order to survive this aspect of our physiology, or accept that once that part of a relationship dies, then its probably just better to move on, if this component is vital to your general existence, otherwise you will wind up leading a miserable life, even if everything else is in order...

I often wonder with regard to women, now that women are making more money and have more financial independence, will that be reflected in a better selection of a male for a mate...I believe in the past, many women were "stuck" with men that may be great providers, but did nothing for them on a sexual level...


----------



## Rus47

Diana7 said:


> I always think compromise is a good idea in a marriage. If he must have sex every day to feel loved and appreciated then I would say he is too needy. A compromise of say 3 times a week may work.


So who gets to decide what frequency defines a person as being "needy"? Who gets to say a compromise of x times a week may work. Who decides on the compromise?

If the man wants sex twice a day that is what he wants. If the woman never wants sex ever, that is what she wants. Or the genders could be reversed. There are women writing posts on here as frustrated by their husbands low drive as men posting about their dead bedrooms. Neither is "abnormal" or "wrong" it is what they want. If they are further apart than the @ccpowerslave golden ratio of 3:1 then they aren't compatible. If they aren't compatible they can either work together to try fixing it or part company. 

Again, neither of them is "wrong" or "needy" or "entitled" or any other derogatory adjectives. They are just different.


----------



## ccpowerslave

I have learned interesting things lately. One of them pissed me off which is part of my sour mood in this thread. I haven’t made a post about it, I’m kind of embarrassed actually it was shocking.

The very next day, in the middle of sex another revelation.

I know that despite all the progress my wife still doesn’t really “get it” and I think it’s maybe mental and physiological. It’s embarrassing to me so I don’t know if I will ever reveal either of these things here although neither are my “fault” it’s still messed up.

In any case I have insight into some of the thinking here where women are expressing a need for space and such. Maybe it’s a difference between an average man and woman, I don’t know. I don’t have enough data points to say for sure.

BAH.


----------



## farsidejunky

ccpowerslave said:


> I have learned interesting things lately. One of them pissed me off which is part of my sour mood in this thread. I haven’t made a post about it, I’m kind of embarrassed actually it was shocking.
> 
> The very next day, in the middle of sex another revelation.
> 
> I know that despite all the progress my wife still doesn’t really “get it” and I think it’s maybe mental and physiological. It’s embarrassing to me so I don’t know if I will ever reveal either of these things here although neither are my “fault” it’s still messed up.
> 
> In any case I have insight into some of the thinking here where women are expressing a need for space and such. Maybe it’s a difference between an average man and woman, I don’t know. I don’t have enough data points to say for sure.
> 
> BAH.


When you feel ready to share, I would be curious about what you have uncovered. I always like to hear new entries into the equation.

The entire idea around sex in LTR's is utterly fascinating. Most of us that are considered 'success stories' on this site are still not on par with NRE frequency. As an example, our frequency is about once per week give or take, but the menu is about as open as I want it to be. So lower quantity, but higher quality. 

I truly believe that there is simply too much familiarity in LTR's to sustain what occurs when a relationship is new. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## ccpowerslave

Meh ok well a fellow traveler I almost feel I have to share these new data points just for science purposes.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Sex is very mental for women. While my hormones (I'm 48) definitely contribute and there are some days it's just not happening I can actually overcome that many days if I'm willing to try mentally. Most of these days I'll try because I love the intimacy and if it works physically even better.

If I don't care to try there's a reason for it. It may or may not he his fault. So the question becomes why is she not willing to try more often?

And you need to be reasonable in the journey you're asking your partner to make. Asking someone who wants it once a week to put out daily and enjoy it isn't reasonable. One's need for a bit of rest to recharge is just as important as one's need for daily sex.


----------



## lifeistooshort

ccpowerslave said:


> Meh ok well a fellow traveler I almost feel I have to share these new data points just for science purposes.


Well if it's for science it must be shared!


----------



## ccpowerslave

I PM’d FSJ.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

BigDaddyNY said:


> Yes, it can be an all day process, but I never ask my wife for sex. Someone who doesn't have a very spontaneous desire, as in sex is on their mind regularly, isn't likely to ever say yes to a direct ask for sex. In spite of it not always being on her mind my wife loves and enjoys sex with me, but if in any given moment I say, "hey wanna go have sex?" I'm going to get told no a lot. All I ask is let me do some of the small things that start to get her turned on. Let me build some of that anticipation to an act you enjoy once you are into it. Don't push me away immediately when I start that initiation process, give me that opportunity to turn you on. I know what gets my wife in the mood. I know if I get her relaxed and we have lots of physical contact I can get her in the mood. She knows that too. She could just shut that down because at the start she isn't interested in sex, but let me do those things I know she likes and most of the time she will get in the mood and we will have sex. Other times it goes no further than those precursors to sex. I have no problem accepting that.
> 
> We've seen it here a lot where a wife will engage in wild sex with an affair partner while shutting out their husband. Or rarely having sex with their husband, but when they divorce and get into a new relationship suddenly it is sex everyday. When that happens hormonal changes aren't what drove that behavior. Yes, hormones have an impact on sex drive, but in a lot of these cases it is just a matter of no longer wanting sex with their husband. The romance is gone from the relationship for some reason. Since I see marriage as a romantic relationship, if the romance is gone and can't be recovered I think the marriage is dead or at least in peril.
> 
> I think marriage requires a lot of selflessness and a strong desire to understand and meet your spouses needs. Among many other things, this also includes sex and intimacy. I will say that a lot of husbands fall down hard on selflessness. They think they can go about their lives doing whatever they want, not meeting their wife's basic needs, then expect to get sex without hardly any effort put into initiation. I don't feel bad for them. However, if they are meeting all the needs of their wife, are a good partner in life, husband and father to the kids the wife should reciprocate. Which again, includes sex and intimacy since marriage is a sexual relationship. If your spouse loves and enjoys sex with you, which if they don't then there is the problem, they should pretty much always be willing to give you a chance to get them in the mood.


This nicely aligns with some things I like to bring up in HD-LD mismatch threads. They are all too similar.

First, NRE. New Relationship Energy. It can't be beat. You are all over each other. She's as up for it as he is, hormones are raging, sex is a priority, and either there aren't competing priorities because you are both young, or there are dates where there is specifically time set aside for intimacy, and you are apart the rest of the week so you make the best of it. Later, the NRE dies down, limerence runs out, and has either transformed to deeper love but less lustful, or you break up.

Secondly, responsive desire vs spontaneous desire. This is often (but not always), gender divergent. Men are spontaneous, and just have to look at a woman to feel some desire for sex - the default setting is wanting sex. Women are responsive, and generally go about their day without thinking about sex at all unless the idea is thrust upon them - the default setting is not wanting sex. Men are always idling, while women's engines are cold by default. (again, generalizing for the sake of his situation). Men want sex as a stress-reliever; women want sex only when they feel stress-free. There are lots of ways to think about it.

You can't just walk up to a RD woman and say "wanna hit the bedroom?" and expect results. If you have created a history of badgering her for sex, creating the habit that sex is a household task she must perform to keep you from being grumbly, or made her feel inadequate and broken for not wanting it as much as you, it's going to take some work to overcome that. You have to turn sex back into a fun couple's recreational activity that is pleasurable for her as much as for you.

She sounds like she's under a lot of stress and is very busy, if she's at the crunch time of her degree. You still have at least one child at home to worry about. Do you do a fair share of work around the home, or is that mostly on her plate too? I'm not saying to expect more sex if you do more housework, but at least make sure you aren't contributing to her stress levels when you should be relieving them. If she feels like she's parenting you instead of being a partner, she's going to feel less interested in sex with you.

Do some research into NRE and responsive desire, and then use what you learn to start your wife's engines better. Meanwhile, work on yourself too. Beef up your own confidence and health, for yourself.


----------



## frenchpaddy

for what ever reason your wife is not into sex for now as much as before , only does it once or twice could be a lot of things , 
but can I ask you this the times you push, beg, or make her feel guilty, does it feel good for you after sex ,
does it feel like you raped her, or do you think it is her duty


----------



## Diana7

Rus47 said:


> So who gets to decide what frequency defines a person as being "needy"? Who gets to say a compromise of x times a week may work. Who decides on the compromise?
> 
> If the man wants sex twice a day that is what he wants. If the woman never wants sex ever, that is what she wants. Or the genders could be reversed. There are women writing posts on here as frustrated by their husbands low drive as men posting about their dead bedrooms. Neither is "abnormal" or "wrong" it is what they want. If they are further apart than the @ccpowerslave golden ratio of 3:1 then they aren't compatible. If they aren't compatible they can either work together to try fixing it or part company.
> 
> Again, neither of them is "wrong" or "needy" or "entitled" or any other derogatory adjectives. They are just different.


Compromise is by nature a meeting in the middle. In marriage it is important and should be agreed between each other. 
Is marriage all about what we want or is it also about what the other wants? 
So say if one spouse is happy with sex once a week and the other spouse wants sex every day, then why can't they agree to have sex 2-3 times a week? Each is then taking a step towards the other.


----------



## Rus47

Diana7 said:


> So say if one spouse is happy with sex once a week and the other spouse wants sex every day, then why can't they agree to have sex 2-3 times a week? Each is then taking a step towards the other.


Of course, if there is a meeting of the minds then whatever they agree to be comfortable with is fine. Would the spouse who wanted intimacy every day still be "needy"? 

Usually what we read on here is a couple went to counseling, or they had a convo, agree to a "compromise" and the wife (usually) who isn't really interested in any intimacy "agrees" to "do better". Somehow things manage to tail off and return to whatever the original situation was, once a month when she ovulates or maybe never. Both people have a right to their agency. If a wife never wants to have sex again with her husband that is her right. She needs to be honest and tell the old boy that is how it is and will remain. He can then decide if he wants to be celibate for the rest of his life. Works with the genders reversed as well.


----------



## ccpowerslave

Diana7 said:


> Is marriage all about what we want or is it also about what the other wants?
> So say if one spouse is happy with sex once a week and the other spouse wants sex every day, then why can't they agree to have sex 2-3 times a week? Each is then taking a step towards the other.


I am struggling with these ideas now.

Wanting sex is wanting a thing.

Wanting “not sex” is the absence of a thing.

There is a long list of “not X” that I want, like being eaten by a shark on a snorkeling excursion, having my fishing boat capsized by a whale, getting hit by a car while crossing the street, the list is nearly endless. One thing all these “not X” things have in common is that there’s an obvious reason for someone to not want them.

So what are the reasons for “not sex” with your partner in a romantic relationship to the point where you’re bartering about it?

I posted a checklist I use earlier in the thread. Let’s take all those off the table which is you’re physically or mentally not capable or you don’t have time.

Now what?

The type of compromise you’re talking about is what you make when someone is doing something they don’t want to do.

This is the fundamental problem. The ideal is for the LD partner not to view things as “giving something up” to match the HD. What exactly are they conceding?


----------



## Rus47

ccpowerslave said:


> I am struggling with these ideas now.


IMO, in a committed marriage neither should have to be “struggling” with a core essential. Its like a Team where the members arent pulling in the same direction. 

You have been working this problem for a long time. Just like the OP. Evidently to no avail. Does that mean the partner doesnt highly value the marriage? When is it their turn to work on making the marriage work? And if they dont care to, what does that imply?


----------



## ccpowerslave

Rus47 said:


> Does that mean the partner doesnt highly value the marriage?


No, it just means they could care less about sex but they may greatly value other things.



Rus47 said:


> When is it their turn to work on making the marriage work?


It was always their turn.



Rus47 said:


> And if they dont care to, what does that imply?


I think I am somewhat coming around to your way of thinking but it’s a long process.

The implication is obvious I think. For whatever reasons they’re not willing to do what it takes to make their partner happy.



Rus47 said:


> You have been working this problem for a long time. Just like the OP. Evidently to no avail.


I wouldn’t say to no avail. I think statistically for our age group we’re probably in the upper 10th percentile now after many many years of being in the lower 50th percentile. Usually it’s enough to where I don’t notice and right now I wouldn’t say my marriage is in crisis like it was in the past.

It’s just annoying, because the more I think about it the more I think you’re right.


----------



## Diana7

ccpowerslave said:


> I am struggling with these ideas now.
> 
> Wanting sex is wanting a thing.
> 
> Wanting “not sex” is the absence of a thing.
> 
> There is a long list of “not X” that I want, like being eaten by a shark on a snorkeling excursion, having my fishing boat capsized by a whale, getting hit by a car while crossing the street, the list is nearly endless. One thing all these “not X” things have in common is that there’s an obvious reason for someone to not want them.
> 
> So what are the reasons for “not sex” with your partner in a romantic relationship to the point where you’re bartering about it?
> 
> I posted a checklist I use earlier in the thread. Let’s take all those off the table which is you’re physically or mentally not capable or you don’t have time.
> 
> Now what?
> 
> The type of compromise you’re talking about is what you make when someone is doing something they don’t want to do.
> 
> This is the fundamental problem. The ideal is for the LD partner not to view things as “giving something up” to match the HD. What exactly are they conceding?


Some people enjoy sex more when there is a bit of a build up. Maybe sex every day gets a little routine. There are all sorts of reasons why a person in a loving relationship may prefer not to have sex every day. I see an agreement to meet in the middle as very workable. 
Maybe one spouse would like to eat roast beef and Yorkshire pudding for a meal every day. The other may say, well I love Roast beef and Yorkshire pudding but if I had it every day it may get routine and I wouldn't appreciate it as much as if we had it every 3 days.


----------



## ccpowerslave

Diana7 said:


> Some people enjoy sex more when there is a bit of a build up. Maybe sex every day gets a little routine. There are all sorts of reasons why a person in a loving relationship may prefer not to have sex every day. I see an agreement to meet in the middle as very workable.
> Maybe one spouse would like to eat roast beef and Yorkshire pudding for a meal every day. The other may say, well I love Roast beef and Yorkshire pudding but if I had it every day it may get routine and I wouldn't appreciate it as much as if we had it every 3 days.


I had to think about this one a few times and basically your analogy boils down to, “it’s boring”.

Now let’s write it out in a sentence,

“Sex with you is too boring to have every day. I can’t be bothered. Maybe every 3rd day it might be more exciting.”

I don’t think there are a lot of people who hear that and think yeah that makes me feel like this is working.


----------



## Rus47

The more of these stories I read the more thankful I am for the girl I married. One in a million who for unknown reasons picked this very flawed guy to spend life with. Somehow we have avoided all of these sexual incompatibilities. We had plenty of other challenges but always had a solid core of dependable intimacy to comfort us.

I never became the multimillionaire captain of industry dreamed of being. But hit the jackpot in the mating game.


----------



## Rus47

Diana7 said:


> Some people enjoy sex more when there is a bit of a build up. Maybe sex every day gets a little routine. There are all sorts of reasons why a person in a loving relationship may prefer not to have sex every day. I see an agreement to meet in the middle as very workable.
> Maybe one spouse would like to eat roast beef and Yorkshire pudding for a meal every day. The other may say, well I love Roast beef and Yorkshire pudding but if I had it every day it may get routine and I wouldn't appreciate it as much as if we had it every 3 days.


You are talking about variety, not frequency. How about if hubby says, “i only want one meal a day. So that is all you get too”?


----------



## BigDaddyNY

ccpowerslave said:


> I had to think about this one a few times and basically your analogy boils down to, “it’s boring”.
> 
> Now let’s write it out in a sentence,
> 
> “Sex with you is too boring to have every day. I can’t be bothered. Maybe every 3rd day it might be more exciting.”
> 
> I don’t think there are a lot of people who hear that and think yeah that makes me feel like this is working.


Yeah, that's the way it seems to me too. 

In my case I look at it a little bit like giving a massage. My wife loves getting massages. I've made a lot of effort in getting really good at giving all kinds of massages because she likes them so much. I even bought a massage table that we use pretty often. My wife would love a massage every day, maybe more than one. I enjoy giving them to her, but I don't always think about giving her one. However, any time she asks for one I don't hesitate. I know she loves them and I usually get some enjoyment of my own. I get to touch her in a very personal way and I can tell how happy it makes her. That is more than enough for me to want to do it for her. Sometimes I'll even give her one when she didn't ask. In the end I am extremely happy to be able to give her something she really wants and needs even if it isn't my absolute number 1 thing I like to do. 

Is sex between a husband and wife really that much different?


----------



## BigDaddyNY

Rus47 said:


> You are talking about variety, not frequency. How about if hubby says, “i only want one meal a day. So that is all you get too”?


Exactly what I was thinking. I don't need beef and pudding every day, but I do need to eat every day. Different position every day of the week? lol.


----------



## ccpowerslave

I think your example is good. My wife also likes massages. She will lay on me which is my signal to give her a massage. I will also give her spontaneous massages and there is no reciprocation nor do I expect any. I know she likes it. She likes getting a back rub and talking or just enjoying it and I like providing it because she likes it.

So it’s a win-win.

How does sex between married people become a win-lose? Where is the lose part of it?


----------



## In Absentia

ccpowerslave said:


> For whatever reasons they’re not willing to do what it takes to make their partner happy.


Because that would make _them_ unhappy.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

In Absentia said:


> Because that would make _them_ unhappy.


And what does that tell you about them?


----------



## In Absentia

BigDaddyNY said:


> And what does that tell you about them?


It tells me that they are not prepared to be unhappy in the marriage. Is it right or wrong? I don't know. That would depend on what it's needed from them to make their partner happy. I think CC knows in his heart that they are mismatched and that his wife is giving him what she can. And it's not enough for him. I think some counselling would be good for him.


----------



## Diana7

ccpowerslave said:


> I had to think about this one a few times and basically your analogy boils down to, “it’s boring”.
> 
> Now let’s write it out in a sentence,
> 
> “Sex with you is too boring to have every day. I can’t be bothered. Maybe every 3rd day it might be more exciting.”
> 
> I don’t think there are a lot of people who hear that and think yeah that makes me feel like this is working.


Not at all. Anything we do constantly can become routine. If something is more enjoyable after a little wait then that's positive to me.
I mean Christmas day is enjoyable and fun for many but imagine if it was every day? The novelty would soon wear off.

The anticipation and build up can make something far more enjoyable.


----------



## Rus47

BigDaddyNY said:


> Exactly what I was thinking. I don't need beef and pudding every day, but I do need to eat every day. Different position every day of the week? lol.


How about in a different room of the house every so often? How about in the pool or on patio (we live out in middle of nowhere, so only squirrels n deer n birds observing )? We have even reprised the backseat of the car, in the garage.

Frequent doesn’t need to be boring unless a couple lets it be that way.

But OP’s wife isnt interested in intimacy with him beyond the minimum to keep him from hitting the exits. Feeds him just enough scraps to keep him from chewing the rope in half and jumping the fence


----------



## Rus47

LATERILUS79 said:


> Oh, and it has nothing to do with porn


Some posters will trot out the concept that men these days are oversexed because they are porn hounds. IMO that is a generalization like claiming all women are gold diggers.

If anything, modern men are less sexual than our ancestors. A hundred years ago men weren't going onto an internet forum asking if they were abnormal wanting sex daily. And paying for a high priced counseling to determine if they were normal.


----------



## ccpowerslave

In Absentia said:


> It tells me that they are not prepared to be unhappy in the marriage. Is it right or wrong? I don't know. That would depend on what it's needed from them to make their partner happy. I think CC knows in his heart that they are mismatched and that his wife is giving him what she can. And it's not enough for him. I think some counselling would be good for him.


Yeah I don’t buy into the concept of “what she can”. That’s like tolerating eating broccoli or something even though you hate it.

In that case there’s no point in counseling it is better to spend the money on alimony.


----------



## In Absentia

ccpowerslave said:


> Yeah I don’t buy into the concept of “what she can”. That’s like tolerating eating broccoli or something even though you hate it.


Does it feel like that to you? That she is doing the bare minimum to keep you going? She knows how you feel about it. So, why is he doing it? It's not because that's the maximum she can tolerate? Is she lazy? She doesn't care about you enough, at the end of the day? You said she doesn't even think about sex... the trouble is that you two are mismatched and pulling in different directions. The rope is going to snap.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

In Absentia said:


> It tells me that they are not prepared to be unhappy in the marriage. Is it right or wrong? I don't know. That would depend on what it's needed from them to make their partner happy. I think CC knows in his heart that they are mismatched and that his wife is giving him what she can. And it's not enough for him. I think some counselling would be good for him.


If you aren't willing to do something reasonable, and yes sex in marriage is reasonable, to make your partner happy then you shouldn't be married. To me it is no different than your spouse saying, "can you scratch that itch right between my shoulder blades" and you say, "no, I don't feel like it." They absolutely don't have to do anything they don't want, but again, what's the point in being married then?


----------



## In Absentia

BigDaddyNY said:


> If you aren't willing to do something reasonable, and yes sex in marriage is reasonable, to make your partner happy then you shouldn't be married. To me it is no different than your spouse saying, "can you scratch that itch right between my shoulder blades" and you say, "no, I don't feel like it." They absolutely don't have to do anything they don't want, but again, what's the point in being married then?


She is giving him plenty of sex, several times a week, but he still is not happy.


----------



## TRy

LATERILUS79 said:


> This is why I dont plan on getting married a second time. The moment the "sex every day" stops.... well, it was a good run. Looks like we aren't compatible. No hard feelings. I'll find someone new.


From an article in the Huffington Post “The majority of people who have the belief that singles are having a lot more sex than folks who are married. Well guess what. They’re not. One of the most comprehensive studies on the subject, which was released in 2010 by the Center for Sexual Health Promotion at Indiana University compiled statistics on the sexual attitudes and habits of 5,865 people between ages 14 and 94. Their study revealed that less than five percent of singles between the ages of 25 and 59 have sex two to three times a week, while a quarter of married folks are beating the single record five times over. A whopping 61 percent of singles reported that they hadn’t had sex within the past year, compared with 18 percent of married people.”


----------



## LisaDiane

In Absentia said:


> She is giving him plenty of sex, several times a week, but he still is not happy.


He's not happy because his needs are not being met. The amount that anyone else thinks he should be satisfied with is irrelevant.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

LisaDiane said:


> He's not happy because his needs are not being met. The amount that anyone else thinks he should be satisfied with is irrelevant.


No. Reasonable people think his needs are not the only ones that matter and that there's no reason they should take priority over hers.


----------



## LisaDiane

DownByTheRiver said:


> No. Reasonable people think his needs are not the only ones that matter and that there's no reason they should take priority over hers.


I don't agree that that's what is going on with him.

And your definition of "reasonable" is only the correct one for you...it doesn't necessarily fit everyone else, and that doesn't mean everyone else is unreasonable.


----------



## In Absentia

LisaDiane said:


> He's not happy because his needs are not being met. The amount that anyone else thinks he should be satisfied with is irrelevant.


Then he should find someone who is going to meet his needs properly. Obviously, she doesn’t and he will be unhappy for the rest of his marriage. We’ve all done it.


----------



## LisaDiane

In Absentia said:


> Then he should find someone who is going to meet his needs properly. Obviously, she doesn’t and he will be unhappy for the rest of his marriage. We’ve all done it.


I guess if he cannot accept it, and it becomes important enough that he's never happy, he definitely should. It's getting through it to that point of realization that we all struggle with, and he's in the midst of that now I think.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

LisaDiane said:


> I don't agree that that's what is going on with him.
> 
> And your definition of "reasonable" is only the correct one for you...it doesn't necessarily fit everyone else, and that doesn't mean everyone else is unreasonable.


Well your definition of reasonable seems to be that the man is always entitled to getting his needs met no matter what the woman's needs are, so I can't respect that. That's just so biased and abusive.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

In Absentia said:


> Then he should find someone who is going to meet his needs properly. Obviously, she doesn’t and he will be unhappy for the rest of his marriage. We’ve all done it.


Maybe Lisa Diane is available. Otherwise good luck with that.


----------



## LisaDiane

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well your definition of reasonable seems to be that the man is always entitled to getting his needs met no matter what the woman's needs are, so I can't respect that. That's just so biased and abusive.


That isn't my definition at all, but I have a very different perspective than you do. And I could call many of your posts to men with high sex drives biased and abusive as well, but I never do because I don't take it personally that you disagree with me.

Both partners should work together to meet eachother's needs. But calling the person who needs and wants more sex names to shame them into believing THEY are asking too much is wrong and only caring about the needs of the low-drive partner.


----------



## LisaDiane

DownByTheRiver said:


> Maybe Lisa Diane is available. Otherwise good luck with that.


That's snarky and gross. Are you trying to shame ME now because I am a woman who disagrees with you?


----------



## DownByTheRiver

LisaDiane said:


> That's snarky and gross. Are you trying to shame ME now because I am a woman who disagrees with you?


No, not trying to shame you. Just saying your kind are rare. Of course we don't know if you're really like this in practice or only in theory.

Just because you're submissive sexually to men doesn't mean every other woman should be or even could be.


----------



## Rus47

In Absentia said:


> She is giving him plenty of sex, several times a week, but he still is not happy.


“Plenty” depends on who is defining it. Plenty for her (in this case) not for him. I know, lot of people classify weekly as “plenty”, and wanting more often is “needy” or “entitled”.


----------



## LisaDiane

DownByTheRiver said:


> No, not trying to shame you. Just saying your kind are rare. Of course we don't know if you're really like this in practice or only in theory.
> 
> Just because you're submissive sexually to men doesn't mean every other woman should be or even could be.


I never said anyone should be like me sexually. But I would like to point out that I would have the exact same views of partners who don't work, or don't listen to their partners, or who are cold-hearted, etc....I believe that ALL relationship needs have the same importance. And I believe that partners should CARE about meeting all those needs if they want to have a good relationship.

Some people believe that since it's "just sex", it's ok to ignore a person who needs that. But those same people will say that a partner should make an extra effort to meet financial needs, or emotional needs. And THAT is what I don't respect.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

LisaDiane said:


> I never said anyone should be like me sexually. But I would like to point out that I would have the exact same views of partners who don't work, or don't listen to their partners, or who are cold-hearted, etc....I believe that ALL relationship needs have the same importance. And I believe that partners should CARE about meeting all those needs if they want to have a good relationship.
> 
> Some people believe that since it's "just sex", it's ok to ignore a person who needs that. But those same people will say that a partner should make an extra effort to meet financial needs, or emotional needs. And THAT is what I don't respect.


Sex is a bit more personal. Having sex when you don't want to feels like rape to a lot of women no matter who's doing it and even worse if it's your own husband because you expect them to have more empathy than that and not care more about their penis than they do their wife's feelings. It's not the same thing at all. It's something he can take care of himself.

Tell me this, how does he take care of her need to have less sex under your theory?


----------



## Diana7

Rus47 said:


> How about in a different room of the house every so often? How about in the pool or on patio (we live out in middle of nowhere, so only squirrels n deer n birds observing )? We have even reprised the backseat of the car, in the garage.
> 
> Frequent doesn’t need to be boring unless a couple lets it be that way.
> 
> But OP’s wife isnt interested in intimacy with him beyond the minimum to keep him from hitting the exits. Feeds him just enough scraps to keep him from chewing the rope in half and jumping the fence


Who mentioned boring? Oh and Btw few people in the UK live in the middle of nowhere. About 10 houses could see into our very small back garden.


----------



## Rus47

Diana7 said:


> Who mentioned boring? Oh and Btw few people in the UK live in the middle of nowhere. About 10 houses could see into our very small back garden.


You were the one that wrote having sex every day could get boring. I was suggesting ways to change things up. Don’t do same thing in same place all of the time. Even if couple live in a studio apartment there are options. We lived in studio when we married, so I know.


----------



## Rus47

OP wrote near the beginning that if they couldn't resolve the issue then finances were only thing to resolve for parting ways. No kids involved and they haven’t been married that long. She is embarking on a new career, so that is likely foremost in her head. 

I asked if she was fulltime student on his dime. Wouldnt surprise if she has been hanging onto him for finances.


----------



## In Absentia

Rus47 said:


> “Plenty” depends on who is defining it. Plenty for her (in this case) not for him. I know, lot of people classify weekly as “plenty”, and wanting more often is “needy” or “entitled”.


That doesn’t change anything. It’s a compromise. If he is not happy, he should find a partner that makes him happy.,


----------



## Rus47

In Absentia said:


> That doesn’t change anything. It’s a compromise. If he is not happy, he should find a partner that makes him happy.,


Agreed. And from what he wrote before, that is what he plans doing if things don't improve. Not sure if these 10 pages have really given him much advice. IMO he is headed in the right direction because he has already "had the talk" to no avail. 

I wonder if he went for therapy to find out if he was "needy" sexually because his wife threw that onto the pile. I also wonder if she snagged OP so she could have a new career funded. He said she is gorgeous, so probably could have had whoever she wanted except she needed someone with enough bucks to fund the education she couldn't obtain any other way.

OP hasn't been back in a few days, maybe he got what he wanted and is moving on.


----------



## MattMatt

This is a threadjack. Please stop.


----------



## TRy

Haus said:


> I’ve done counseling on my own s far and shared all my thoughts and feelings. It increased for a bit when she found out I was not satisfied, but it’s now slipping and on track to return to 2x a week.


One of the most comprehensive studies on the subject, which was released in 2010 by the Center for Sexual Health Promotion at Indiana University compiled statistics on the sexual attitudes and habits of 5,865 people between ages 14 and 94. Their study revealed that less than five percent of singles between the ages of 25 and 59 have sex two to three times a week, while a quarter of married folks are beating the single record five times over. 

Thus your current 2 to 3 time a week is more often than what 95% of what single men get, and more often than what 75% of married men get. You can divorce and try for more often, but long term the odds are not in your favor.


----------



## snowbum

I think expecting a wife to agree to sex whenever her husband wants it is a sexist approach Being the dude doesn’t entitle you to sex on demand.. If your partner is up for 4+ episodes of energetic sex each week be glad.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

DownByTheRiver said:


> No. Reasonable people think his needs are not the only ones that matter and that there's no reason they should take priority over hers.


What if all her needs are being met? And I don't call not wanting sex a need. Is that what you are saying is her need?


----------



## LisaDiane

snowbum said:


> I think expecting a wife to agree to sex whenever her husband wants it is a sexist approach Being the dude doesn’t entitle you to sex on demand.. If your partner is up for 4+ episodes of energetic sex each week be glad.


Then is it still sexist expecting a husband to agree to have sex whenever his wife wants it?


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Leading disgruntled guys to think they can just leave a marriage in middle age and find a better partner than they were able to find in their prime is just ridiculous. There's nothing wrong with the one he has. And he knows it. His original post, you can see he has done his own research and isn't deluded. 

Are we all happy ALL the time about everything? Of course not. Welcome to reality.


BigDaddyNY said:


> What if all her needs are being met? And I don't call not wanting sex a need. Is that what you are saying is her need?


Well, I do. Her need is not to be used and abused sexually by her own husband, which makes her life miserable and diminishes her as a person. Her need is to be able to say no when she, for whatever reason whatsoever, doesn't feel like having sex. Not wanting to submit to sex all the time when you don't want to is what she needs to have self-respect and be happy and not become resentful and feel used like a sex slave. Her need is for him to respect her needs and take no for an answer, like any civilized caring person would do if they cared about someone at all. And the law is on her side when push comes to shove. The days of men having their way with their wives against their will are behind us except in third-world countries. All they have to do is dial 911 if they are forced, but see, this OP isn't going to do that. He knows he doesn't have the right.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

LisaDiane said:


> Then is it still sexist expecting a husband to agree to have sex whenever his wife wants it?


Sexist, unsure, but it certainly is wishful thinking and pushy.


----------



## LisaDiane

DownByTheRiver said:


> Sexist, unsure, but it certainly is wishful thinking and pushy.


So is expecting a monogamous partner to go without sex.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

LisaDiane said:


> So is expecting a monogamous partner to go without sex.


Which isn't the subject of this thread.


----------



## LisaDiane

DownByTheRiver said:


> Which isn't the subject of this thread.


I interpreted that as basically in the title...??


----------



## BigDaddyNY

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well, I do. Her need is not to be used and abused sexually by her own husband, which makes her life miserable and diminishes her as a person. Her need is to be able to say no when she, for whatever reason whatsoever, doesn't feel like having sex. Not wanting to submit to sex all the time when you don't want to is what she needs to have self-respect and be happy and not become resentful and feel used like a sex slave. Her need is for him to respect her needs and take no for an answer, like any civilized caring person would do if they cared about someone at all. And the law is on her side when push comes to shove. The days of men having their way with their wives against their will are behind us except in third-world countries. All they have to do is dial 911 if they are forced, but see, this OP isn't going to do that. He knows he doesn't have the right.


No one should ever be forced to have sex and I don't think anyone is saying the wife should have sex every single time on the whim of the husband. 

Everything else you said could be turned around turned around to support the husband's need to have intimate relations with his wife. Like having a wife that enjoys regular sex plays into him having self respect and contentment with his marriage. No good husbands, even with a sky high sex drive, is using and abusing their wife simply because they love and need intimacy with them. Enjoying sex should be a normal part of being married. Every spouse should give the other the chance to get them into the mood for sexual intimacy and every spouse should understand that the other isn't going to have sex 100% of the time you try for it or desire it. If your sex drives as so far off from one of you that neither can be happy then why remain married?


----------



## DownByTheRiver

BigDaddyNY said:


> No one should ever be forced to have sex and I don't think anyone is saying the wife should have sex every single time on the whim of the husband.
> 
> Everything else you said could be turned around turned around to support the husband's need to have intimate relations with his wife. Like having a wife that enjoys regular sex plays into him having self respect and contentment with his marriage. No good husbands, even with a sky high sex drive, is using and abusing their wife simply because they love and need intimacy with them. Enjoying sex should be a normal part of being married. Every spouse should give the other the chance to get them into the mood for sexual intimacy and every spouse should understand that the other isn't going to have sex 100% of the time you try for it or desire it. If your sex drives as so far off from one of you that neither can be happy then why remain married?


Badgering you wife for sex when she doesn't want it is not intimacy. It is the opposite of intimacy.

And her not wanting it as often, there's nothing she could do about that. Him wanting it more is a situation as old as time, and It's not like he has no other alternative. If it's sex he wants he can do that for himself when she doesn't want to. That's a remedy as old as time.

If it's intimacy he thinks he wants, that's not just something you do in bed. It's having love and respect for each other but it's not being enslaved to each other or expecting the other to submit to your each and every desire. The fastest way I know how to kill that is to pressure your wife for sex when she doesn't want it when that's just the way she's wired.

If you men want someone to just service you on your schedule and pretend they enjoy every minute of it, first of all, what you want is an actress. Second of all, stop calling that intimacy.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

DownByTheRiver said:


> Badgering you wife for sex when she doesn't want it is not intimacy. It is the opposite of intimacy.
> 
> And her not wanting it as often, there's nothing she could do about that. Him wanting it more is a situation as old as time, and It's not like he has no other alternative. If it's sex he wants he can do that for himself when she doesn't want to. That's a remedy as old as time.
> 
> If it's intimacy he thinks he wants, that's not just something you do in bed. It's having love and respect for each other but it's not being enslaved to each other or expecting the other to submit to your each and every desire. The fastest way I know how to kill that is to pressure your wife for sex when she doesn't want it when that's just the way she's wired.
> 
> If you men want someone to just service you on your schedule and pretend they enjoy every minute of it, first of all, what you want is an actress. Second of all, stop calling that intimacy.


There should be no badgering. That does nothing positive. That certainly isn't what I do. No one is looking to be serviced on our schedule. Kind of the opposite. Just someone that enjoys sex with their sole sexual partner. That is all husbands all looking for for the most part.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

BigDaddyNY said:


> There should be no badgering. That does nothing positive. That certainly isn't what I do. No one is looking to be serviced on our schedule. Kind of the opposite. Just someone that enjoys sex with their sole sexual partner. That is all husbands all looking for for the most part.


Then understand that most people aren't going to want it every single time you want it. So you shouldn't expect that.

And I think you're wrong that no one is looking to be serviced on their own schedule. I think we've seen that plenty here.


----------



## hamadryad

snowbum said:


> I think expecting a wife to agree to sex whenever her husband wants it is a sexist approach Being the dude doesn’t entitle you to sex on demand.. If your partner is up for 4+ episodes of energetic sex each week be glad.


Lets say your husband decides at the age of 42 he doesn't want to work hard anymore, and is going to take a part time 12/hr job..... He's had enough of the rat race and can't do it anymore....If your partner is only up for 12/hr work part time, then you should be glad,..

You good with that?

_I think expecting a husband to agree to work like a dog until he's broken down is a sexist approach...Being the wife doesn't obligate a husband to be a donkey for life...._

See how this works??


----------



## LisaDiane

DownByTheRiver said:


> Leading disgruntled guys to think they can just leave a marriage in middle age and find a better partner than they were able to find in their prime is just ridiculous. There's nothing wrong with the one he has. And he knows it. His original post, you can see he has done his own research and isn't deluded.
> 
> Are we all happy ALL the time about everything? Of course not. Welcome to reality.
> 
> Well, I do. Her need is not to be used and abused sexually by her own husband, which makes her life miserable and diminishes her as a person. Her need is to be able to say no when she, for whatever reason whatsoever, doesn't feel like having sex. Not wanting to submit to sex all the time when you don't want to is what she needs to have self-respect and be happy and not become resentful and feel used like a sex slave. Her need is for him to respect her needs and take no for an answer, like any civilized caring person would do if they cared about someone at all. And the law is on her side when push comes to shove. The days of men having their way with their wives against their will are behind us except in third-world countries. All they have to do is dial 911 if they are forced, but see, this OP isn't going to do that. He knows he doesn't have the right.





DownByTheRiver said:


> Badgering you wife for sex when she doesn't want it is not intimacy. It is the opposite of intimacy.
> 
> And her not wanting it as often, there's nothing she could do about that. Him wanting it more is a situation as old as time, and It's not like he has no other alternative. If it's sex he wants he can do that for himself when she doesn't want to. That's a remedy as old as time.
> 
> If it's intimacy he thinks he wants, that's not just something you do in bed. It's having love and respect for each other but it's not being enslaved to each other or expecting the other to submit to your each and every desire. The fastest way I know how to kill that is to pressure your wife for sex when she doesn't want it when that's just the way she's wired.
> 
> If you men want someone to just service you on your schedule and pretend they enjoy every minute of it, first of all, what you want is an actress. Second of all, stop calling that intimacy.


Your comments here are really shocking, because you are exaggerating most (if not all) of what has been said in the posts here, and you are clearly trying to ridicule and shame MEN for wanting more sex than their wives. Dismissing someone's feelings and calling them abusive and accusing them of lying about their motives (wanting intimacy) is HURTFUL and unfair.

And you aren't helping anyone by expressing your feelings about this issue this way.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

LisaDiane said:


> Your comments here are really shocking, because you are exaggerating most (if not all) of what has been said in the posts here, and you are clearly trying to ridicule and shame MEN for wanting more sex than their wives. Dismissing someone's feelings and calling them abusive and accusing them of lying about their motives (wanting intimacy) is HURTFUL and unfair.
> 
> And you aren't helping anyone by expressing yourself this way.


🙄 I'm sorry you're feeling so much pain on behalf of these men, Lisa.


----------



## LisaDiane

DownByTheRiver said:


> 🙄 I'm sorry you're feeling so much pain on behalf of these men, Lisa.


You aren't sorry at all.


----------



## hamadryad

While I understand it, I also realize that long lasting sexual interest/chemistry is a *very *elusive thing.....

Just think for a minute....The "honeymoon" period, early on, where you can be with someone and you can't get your hands off them and they feel the same...That rarely lasts, and if someone could figure out how to create or sustain it with a drug or whatever, they could be rich enough to buy and sell Musk and Bezos combined....It's a biological urge that expires...period...and its designed into all of us, in the mastery of creation and species propagation/diversity...

And someone earlier stated that its because of 'familiarity:" I don't really agree with that....There are female business contacts and other women that I have known for years and know about everything about them...They are very "familiar" to me, but if I started banging them it would be like any other "new" sexual relationship...So I don't buy the theory that someone has to be "strange".......

I know guys who have wives they barely talk to, and regularly badmouth and mock, but make sure they have their sex when they want it...I doubt highly that these women are enjoying any of it...How could they??. They feel that's their wives obligation and they should take it or GTFO...I could never in a million years conceive of that...eww...I don't even think I can have a sexual relationship with a woman that doesn't initiate...If not all the time at least half the time, or whatever...But never? Nope...

So, I see both sides of this...I just don't know what the solution is, unfortunately the one on the wanting end is getting the short end, while he other could think everything is perfect....That's the craziness of this....


----------



## DownByTheRiver

hamadryad said:


> Lets say your husband decides at the age of 42 he doesn't want to work hard anymore, and is going to take a part time 12/hr job..... He's had enough of the rat race and can't do it anymore....
> 
> You good with that?
> 
> _I think expecting a husband to agree to work like a dog until he's broken down is a sexist approach...Being the wife doesn't obligate a husband to be a donkey for life...._
> 
> See how this works??


I don't equate sex with doing your part paying your own bills. Maybe that's because no one in my entire life has ever paid the bills for me, not even once. So I really don't get the equation. Sex isn't something you do to get bills paid unless you're a sex worker. Especially not if those bills are just as much the other person as your own. If someone is not helping keep a roof over our heads then I would be better off not living with them. That doesn't necessarily mean I'd stop having sex with them if that's what I wanted to do. If I had a family and they didn't care anymore about their welfare than to run us in the bankruptcy, I'd get out. 

But it would have nothing to do with sex.


----------



## hamadryad

DownByTheRiver said:


> I don't equate sex with doing your part paying your own bills. Maybe that's because no one in my entire life has ever paid the bills for me, not even once. So I really don't get the equation. Sex isn't something you do to get bills paid unless you're a sex worker. Especially not if those bills are just as much the other person as your own. If someone is not helping keep a roof over our heads then I would be better off not living with them. That doesn't necessarily mean I'd stop having sex with them if that's what I wanted to do. If I had a family and they didn't care anymore about their welfare than to run us in the bankruptcy, I'd get out.
> 
> But it would have nothing to do with sex.


No disrespect, but I believe you are just applying personal biases and disregarding what others may value....

I could *easily* make the argument that a guy that is more sexually satisfied would be a better earner than if he wasn't...And smart women understand this....lol...

I mean, I just picked the first analogy that came to mind, but I could have easily come up with others...


----------



## DownByTheRiver

hamadryad said:


> No disrespect, but I believe you are just applying personal biases and disregarding what others may value....
> 
> I could *easily* make the argument that a guy that is more sexually satisfied would be a better earner than if he wasn't...And smart women understand this....lol...
> 
> I mean, I just picked the first analogy that came to mind, but I could have easily come up with others...


So who's the prostitute in that scenario?

Where I live most women are working so it's kind of irrelevant.

I don't know any women who pay their husband to work by having sex anytime he wants. That's not their chosen profession.


----------



## hamadryad

DownByTheRiver said:


> So who's the prostitute in that scenario?
> 
> Where I live most women are working so it's kind of irrelevant.
> 
> I don't know any women who pay their husband to work by having sex anytime he wants. That's not their chosen profession.


You are understandably not getting any of this. It's got *nothing *to do with prostitution I have no idea why you would even mention it It's ok, though. lol...

The basic point is that there are many times when men do things they would never do, and often hate, to please their wives....There is a saying "if mommas not happy, no one is happy" I guess if dads not happy he should then go fck himself? because there is no equivalent saying for the man..

Most of the major life decisions in a marriage like where to live, when and how many kids to have, what type of house to buy and how its furnished and set up, where to vacation,etc is mostly governed by women and often are at direct odds with what the man actually wants...

_Its done as a sacrifice for the quality of life for his woman and his children_...The thinking is that when she/they are happy, he's happy....It's really as simple as that, but there are some people that may lack this basic experience or understanding, so it seems like a foreign concept...


----------



## DownByTheRiver

hamadryad said:


> You are understandably not getting any of this. It's got *nothing *to do with prostitution I have no idea why you would even mention it It's ok, though. lol...
> 
> The basic point is that there are many times when men do things they would never do, and often hate, to please their wives....There is a saying "if mommas not happy, no one is happy" I guess if dads not happy he should then go fck himself? because there is no equivalent saying for the man..
> 
> Most of the major life decisions in a marriage like where to live, when and how many kids to have, what type of house to buy and how its furnished and set up, where to vacation,etc is mostly governed by women and often are at direct odds with what the man actually wants...
> 
> _Its done as a sacrifice for the quality of life for his woman and his children_...The thinking is that when she/they are happy, he's happy....It's really as simple as that, but there are some people that may lack this basic experience or understanding, so it seems like a foreign concept...


Sure. And women do hundreds of nonsexual things for their men and family too. Women sacrifice a lot. Just seems like to many men, it only counts if it's sexual. And I'm not saying all men, but saying a lot of men on this forum. In real life, I don't know any like that, honestly.


----------



## farsidejunky

DownByTheRiver said:


> Sure. And women do hundreds of nonsexual things for their men and family too. Women sacrifice a lot. Just seems like to many men, it only counts if it's sexual. And I'm not saying all men, but saying a lot of men on this forum. In real life, I don't know any like that, honestly.


Just as to many women, it only counts if it is emotional. 

This really is simple...

A wife is entitled to her body, and she can choose to share it with her husband...or not.

Conversely, a man can choose to only give his wife an ear to vent to, a opened jar lid, or any number of other things, when HE chooses as well. 

Funny that the latter is often framed as petty, tit-for-tat, or passive aggressive, while the former is held up as some sort of reverent rule.

The truth is that relationships are a choice every single day, and most of us (despite our often misplaced beliefs) are replaceable. If one wants to be irreplaceable, they should consider what it is that will make them so in the eyes of their partner. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## DownByTheRiver

farsidejunky said:


> Just as to many women, it only counts if it is emotional.
> 
> This really is simple...
> 
> A wife is entitled to her body, and she can choose to share it with her husband...or not.
> 
> Conversely, a man can choose to only give his wife an ear to vent to, a opened jar lid, or any number of other things, when HE chooses as well.
> 
> Funny that the latter is often framed as petty, tit-for-tat, or passive aggressive, while the former is held up as some sort of reverent rule.
> 
> The truth is that relationships are a choice every single day, and most of us (despite our often misplaced beliefs) are replaceable. If one wants to be irreplaceable, they should consider what it is that will make them so in the eyes of their partner.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


Well, FS, that's because having sex when you don't want to is quite a bit more offensive and invasive and disrespectful and sometimes unlawful than someone opening a jar for someone. I can't remember when I've ever had to have someone open a jar for me, so what an odd thing to think carries some leverage. 

I've lived my whole life without needing a man to do those little things for me. When I do have a big task (like lawn mowing or plumbing), I pay them for it with MONEY, not sex. I don't f*** for chores and certainly wouldn't expect to have to if I was married. If they didn't want to, I'd hire it done. I do place some responsibility on the women who let themselves get trapped in a situation where they are dependent and therefore vulnerable to abuse.


----------



## lifeistooshort

So let me pose this question.

We currently have sex 4-5 times a week and I enjoy all of it. But those 2 days off really help me recharge and I enjoy the sex we have more because of it.

If I had a guy who wanted it daily but not having those 2 days diminished my enjoyment, are his "needs" more important then my need to recharge so I can enjoy it more?

Seems to me that this is the argument being made here.

And I still don't know why the phrase sexless marriage is still being thrown around here. They're not sexless....he's getting twice a week. It would be a different conversation if they were in fact sexless.


----------



## lifeistooshort

hamadryad said:


> Lets say your husband decides at the age of 42 he doesn't want to work hard anymore, and is going to take a part time 12/hr job..... He's had enough of the rat race and can't do it anymore....If your partner is only up for 12/hr work part time, then you should be glad,..
> 
> You good with that?
> 
> _I think expecting a husband to agree to work like a dog until he's broken down is a sexist approach...Being the wife doesn't obligate a husband to be a donkey for life...._
> 
> See how this works??


No, that's not how this works.

I really dislike this thought process because it implies that we have a contract where hubby only needs to be a contributing adult in the house if he's getting laid as much as he wants. As if adulting to run the household is really her job and he's doing her a bit fat favor to contribute to the home in which he lives.

Sexual compatibility is its own unique issue.


----------



## Rus47

Haus said:


> Started counseling to figure out if my sex drive is normal. Turns out I am. Seems like some cruel joke where men like sex daily and women 1-2x per week.


So what is the answer to his complaint?


----------



## hamadryad

lifeistooshort said:


> No, that's not how this works.
> 
> I really dislike this thought process because it implies that we have a contract where hubby only needs to be a contributing adult in the house if he's getting laid as much as he wants. As if adulting to run the household is really her job and he's doing her a bit fat favor to contribute to the home in which he lives.
> 
> Sexual compatibility is its own unique issue.



And you don't get it either. Lol

The point is a man and woman enter into a relationship that is....in most cases..sexual or they'd only be friends..

And like most couples, they would both work towards whatever it is that they desire to be the goals of both partners. 

So....once one party decides to end that aspect(or turn it into whatever it is that they feel is their right) then just like sex, work or anything else that was a condition of the marriage, they unilaterally and independently changed the terms of the "contract"...

No one would expect a sick or injured person to have sex, nor would they expect them to work. But if they decide with no prevailing conditions to end the sexual part of the relationship I really don't see much of a difference if an able bodied person with no conditions decided to give up their career. Like giving up the sex, consequences be damned. 

So no, it's got nothing to do with being "transactional" as you guys are implying. 

At the end of the day, no one can decide what is " its own unique issue" because someone could say that about anything.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

hamadryad said:


> And you don't get it either. Lol
> 
> The point is a man and woman enter into a relationship that is....in most cases..sexual or they'd only be friends..
> 
> And like most couples, they would both work towards whatever it is that they desire to be the goals of both partners.
> 
> So....once one party decides to end that aspect(or turn it into whatever it is that they feel is their right) then just like sex, work or anything else that was a condition of the marriage, they unilaterally and independently changed the terms of the "contract"...
> 
> No one would expect a sick or injured person to have sex, nor would they expect them to work. But if they decide with no prevailing conditions to end the sexual part of the relationship I really don't see much of a difference if an able bodied person with no conditions decided to give up their career. Like giving up the sex, consequences be damned.
> 
> So no, it's got nothing to do with being "transactional" as you guys are implying.
> 
> At the end of the day, no one can decide what is " its own unique issue" because someone could say that about anything.


Nobody ended the sexual part. She's having sex about the amount that is average. 

And there is no sexual contract. At least not where I live. No women I know made any agreement about endless sex and no women I know married for sex. 

Women I know haven't made sex their "work." So I can't equate the two. Sex is one of their pleasures. It's not a pleasure if you're having it when you're not wanting it. That ruins the future pleasure for you too.


----------



## snowbum

LisaDiane said:


> Then is it still sexist expecting a husband to agree to have sex whenever his wife wants it?


Yes I think you need to work toward a relationship where sex is a special connection not a man “ I’m horny spread ‘em” situation.


----------



## Enigma32

lifeistooshort said:


> So let me pose this question.
> 
> We currently have sex 4-5 times a week and I enjoy all of it. But those 2 days off really help me recharge and I enjoy the sex we have more because of it.
> 
> *If I had a guy who wanted it daily but not having those 2 days diminished my enjoyment, are his "needs" more important then my need to recharge so I can enjoy it more?
> 
> Seems to me that this is the argument being made here.*
> 
> And I still don't know why the phrase sexless marriage is still being thrown around here. They're not sexless....he's getting twice a week. It would be a different conversation if they were in fact sexless.


Pretty much how I see it. If the current sexual frequency is average for a married couple then I can understand a more high drive partner wishing they could have it more, but they should be reasonable in their expectations. If what you are getting at home is about normal, then whether you like it or not, it's still normal. This stuff seems pretty simple to me. I just can't get with the mentality that someone can believe their partner should just have sex with them at the drop of a hat, even when they don't particularly want to. Sex just doesn't work like that. It's not something you can just do if you aren't feeling it, and do we really want our partners to have sex with us when they don't actually want to?

Maybe I just have more perspective on this because I've been the low drive partner in a relationship before. I remember my ex from my 20's who legit wanted sex several times a day. She was insatiable. Maybe some of the guys here would think that would be heaven for them but trust me, it's not. It's not fun when you've already had sex 2x a day every single day and your partner wants it 5x a day and you're tired from working and your man parts are actually sore but she still won't leave you alone.


----------



## lifeistooshort

hamadryad said:


> And you don't get it either. Lol
> 
> The point is a man and woman enter into a relationship that is....in most cases..sexual or they'd only be friends..
> 
> And like most couples, they would both work towards whatever it is that they desire to be the goals of both partners.
> 
> So....once one party decides to end that aspect(or turn it into whatever it is that they feel is their right) then just like sex, work or anything else that was a condition of the marriage, they unilaterally and independently changed the terms of the "contract"...
> 
> No one would expect a sick or injured person to have sex, nor would they expect them to work. But if they decide with no prevailing conditions to end the sexual part of the relationship I really don't see much of a difference if an able bodied person with no conditions decided to give up their career. Like giving up the sex, consequences be damned.
> 
> So no, it's got nothing to do with being "transactional" as you guys are implying.
> 
> At the end of the day, no one can decide what is " its own unique issue" because someone could say that about anything.


Don't know where I ever said it was transactional. I simply said that comparing sex to contributing to the home in which you live is unreasonable.

And how has she ended the sexual relationship? They aren't having sex twice a week?

If I'm mistaken I will stand corrected.

Pretty sure my point was that her needs matter too so a compromise needs to be reached. He shouldn't get to control the sexual relationship any more then she should. Relationships are all about balancing needs and wants of both.


----------



## ccpowerslave

lifeistooshort said:


> Pretty sure my point was that her needs matter too so a compromise needs to be reached.


I give you points for giving a reasonable explanation for needing “not sex” without any kind of physical or mental issues.

You enjoy sex more with “not sex”.

While I don’t understand this on the timeline of days at least it’s an explanation that is logical and consistent with what I’d expect.


----------



## lifeistooshort

ccpowerslave said:


> I give you points for giving a reasonable explanation for needing “not sex” without any kind of physical or mental issues.
> 
> You enjoy sex more with “not sex”.
> 
> While I don’t understand this on the timeline of days at least it’s an explanation that is logical and consistent with what I’d expect.


In fairness I don't ever think of it as "not sex". I still look at him and think he's sexy.

I just need a little bit to think about it because sex is partly mental for many women.

I think 5 days of sex and 2 days off to think about it is quite reasonable.


----------



## LATERILUS79

DownByTheRiver said:


> Maybe Lisa Diane is available. Otherwise good luck with that.


Really?

What exactly are you inferring here? 

Why do you have such a problem with women being different from you? Does that go against "the cause"? Does it make it more difficult for you to recruit?

Why are you so determined to make sure everyone is miserable and not enjoying sex?


----------



## TRy

DownByTheRiver said:


> Nobody ended the sexual part. She's having sex about the amount that is average.


If you look at studies of married couples, she is in the top 25%, which is not as much as he wants, but better than most. Also, a sexless marriage is considered by marriage experts to be less than 10 times a year. She does more than 10 times that number a year; so some people need to drop the sexless marriage stuff.


----------



## In Absentia

In Absentia said:


> She is giving him plenty of sex, several times a week, but he still is not happy.


Can I just say that I was referring to @ccpowerslave in this case? We had a bit of a spin-off early on... I hope he doesn't mind. I might have exaggerated with "several times a week", because I don't really know their frequency. But I do agree with some posters here that acting always horny and badgering wives for sex is counterproductive. This is my experience as well.


----------



## ccpowerslave

This is the OP’s thread, I got triggered.


----------



## In Absentia

ccpowerslave said:


> This is the OP’s thread, I got triggered.


We all got a bit triggered...


----------



## hamadryad

lifeistooshort said:


> _Don't know where I ever said it was transactional. _
> .





lifeistooshort said:


> _because it implies that we have a contract where hubby only needs to be a contributing adult in the house if he's getting laid as much as he wants. _


Here are your quotes for your reference....

And it had nothing to do with the point trying to be made...

The crazy part is that for some reason, I feel like I am fighting for the rights of the jagoffs that think a womans only purpose is to be a cum receptacle for a guy that doesn't even know how to treat or communicate with a woman....Nothing in my case could be further from the truth, in fact I am probably more tolerant and understanding than most guys would be on this issue...Maybe its because I have had a lot of sex in my life and even though I continue to still be pretty HD, its not a hill id die on unless it was really non existent...or there were other prevailing issues that just were compounded by the issues in the bedroom..

I do see why some guys lose it, though...Especially the ones that report that these women came in all hot and heavy and then just for no apparent reason, pulled the rug out....Seems like a bait and switch, but I dunno...

In the case of the OP, like stated earlier in the thread, the 2x/week would probably be fine for a lot of guys, but a lot of that is entirely dependent on how those 2 times are...My guess is if she is never initiating its very possible its nothing more than a chore for her, and she is doing what she feels is the bare minimum to keep him off her back.. None of us can really know if that is the case, he may not evern know...only she does...


----------



## In Absentia

hamadryad said:


> In the case of the OP, like stated earlier in the thread, the 2x/week would probably be fine for a lot of guys, but a lot of that is entirely dependent on how those 2 times are...My guess is if she is never initiating its very possible its nothing more than a chore for her, and she is doing what she feels is the bare minimum to keep him off her back.. None of us can really know if that is the case, he may not evern know...only she does...


I agree with this... a lot has to do with the quality of sex. I can see guys having duty sex and bad sex at that. That's soul destroying. Although my wife never initiated and our frequency was just about tolerable, the sex was good, even if she did it for me.


----------



## lifeistooshort

hamadryad said:


> Here are your quotes for your reference....
> 
> And it had nothing to do with the point trying to be made...
> 
> The crazy part is that for some reason, I feel like I am fighting for the rights of the jagoffs that think a womans only purpose is to be a cum receptacle for a guy that doesn't even know how to treat or communicate with a woman....Nothing in my case could be further from the truth, in fact I am probably more tolerant and understanding than most guys would be on this issue...Maybe its because I have had a lot of sex in my life and even though I continue to still be pretty HD, its not a hill id die on unless it was really non existent...or there were other prevailing issues that just were compounded by the issues in the bedroom..
> 
> I do see why some guys lose it, though...Especially the ones that report that these women came in all hot and heavy and then just for no apparent reason, pulled the rug out....Seems like a bait and switch, but I dunno...
> 
> In the case of the OP, like stated earlier in the thread, the 2x/week would probably be fine for a lot of guys, but a lot of that is entirely dependent on how those 2 times are...My guess is if she is never initiating its very possible its nothing more than a chore for her, and she is doing what she feels is the bare minimum to keep him off her back.. None of us can really know if that is the case, he may not evern know...only she does...


I can see we're not going to agree on this and that's ok. You say you're fighting for the rights of jagoffs....on the slip side I do not support spouses cutting off a sex life. I have plenty of sex with my bf, and if we're not going to have sex why not just be friends? 

My thing is that I feel that many posters are skewing towards the rights of whoever wants more sex to take precedence, and the other is just a jerk for not sucking it up. If you'd read my previous posts you'd see where I said that if twice a week is her preference they need to shoot for 3-4 this way everyday gets some of what they want. That's successful compromise, and I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect a long term relationship to be exactly like it was early on. Things change and the question is whether you can change and compromise together.

Now if that twice a week is her throwing him a bone to shut him up they have far bigger issues. If she's into the twice a week they can work with that. If not he's got tough questions to answer unless a counselor can help them delve into why.


----------



## In Absentia

lifeistooshort said:


> My thing is that I feel that many posters are skewing towards the rights of whoever wants more sex to take precedence, and the other is just a jerk for not sucking it up. If you'd read my previous posts you'd see where I said that *if twice a week is her preference they need to shoot for 3-4 this way everyday gets some of what they want. That's successful compromise*, and I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect a long term relationship to be exactly like it was early on. Things change and the question is whether you can change and compromise together.


Not sure if doubling the amount of sex in such a short window is a successful compromise for the partner who doesn't want much sex. I don't think it's sustainable long term and sex will become a chore. There isn't a fixed measure and sex is definitely not comparable to washing the dishes. If you are moderately satisfied with your sex life (especially after many years) but you still want more - and love your wife - do not push it. You might end up with no spouse at all.


----------



## lifeistooshort

In Absentia said:


> Not sure if doubling the amount of sex in such a short window is a successful compromise for the partner who doesn't want much sex. I don't think it's sustainable long term and sex will become a chore. There isn't a fixed measure and sex is definitely not comparable to washing the dishes. If you are moderately satisfied with your sex life (especially after many years) but you still want more - and love your wife - do not push it. You might end up with no spouse at all.


That is possible, which is why I would like clarity on what those 2 times a week are like. Perhaps he could start with asking for one more day?


----------



## In Absentia

lifeistooshort said:


> That is possible, which is why I would like clarity on what those 2 times a week are like. Perhaps he could start with asking for one more day?


That sounds reasonable. Good quality sex 3 times/week? I would have loved that...


----------



## ccpowerslave

lifeistooshort said:


> If you'd read my previous posts you'd see where I said that if twice a week is her preference they need to shoot for 3-4 this way everyday gets some of what they want. That's successful compromise, and I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect a long term relationship to be exactly like it was early on.


I stand by my personal (unpublished) research which suggests that a 3:1 or greater discrepancy in frequency will eventually put the marriage in crisis. By crisis I mean it is heading on a path that leads to divorce, separation, cheating, etc…. It may take years or even decades but the course is set.

In the OP’s case he is at 3.5:1 and here he is trying to figure out how to save things.

So as you suggest, if they could arrive at 3-4x he’d be at a more manageable 2:1 which would take him out of crisis mode but it wouldn’t be all the way fixed.

As a side note, from my own life I found I was no longer triggered by threads like this when at 1.4:1 for extended periods. Keep in mind that is 40% of the time the sexual pursuer wants to have sex for their “baseline” they’re not. For science, since I got triggered you might wonder what I have been at recently, for the last 5 months it has been around 2:1.

One important point on the above, notice it is all ratios and not absolute time. This could be says, weeks, or even months; it doesn’t matter. As an example let’s say the sexual pursuer wants 3 times a month and the distancer once a month, 3:1 crisis. Same with the pursuer wanting 3x a day and the distancer 1x also crisis.


----------



## hamadryad

lifeistooshort said:


> That is possible, which is why I would like clarity on what those 2 times a week are like. Perhaps he could start with asking for one more day?


Asking for more sex is more than likely only going to end up being duty sex, if the current situation of 2x isn't duty sex already....Either you want to do it or you don't....This isn't like asking someone to take out the trash....

That's me, so obviously others mileage may vary...


----------



## ccpowerslave

One other point, high quality sex increases my desire for more of it. Ho hum quickies do not. So the idea of replacing frequency with better quality experiences I wouldn’t expect to work.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

That's why I said those guys want an actress and should stop trying to sell it as intimacy. 

I don't feel anyone should be having sex when they don't want to or be doing sexual things they don't like. 

It's the opposite of intimacy and the opposite of love to ask for that. 

I feel like there's a lot of ego involved with people who can't accept that someone isn't willing to submit to them sexually anytime they want. It's an unreasonable request that doesn't reflect love or intimacy. If a person needs a partner to pretend to like duty sex, then they are too needy and needing more validation than is healthy and might benefit from therapy. And they are being abusive and eroding the relationship.


----------



## In Absentia

ccpowerslave said:


> One important point on the above, notice it is all ratios and not absolute time. This could be says, weeks, or even months; *it doesn’t matter*. As an example let’s say the sexual pursuer wants 3 times a month and the distancer once a month, 3:1 crisis. Same with the pursuer wanting 3x a day and the distancer 1x also crisis.


It does matter. There is a big difference between 3 x month and 3 x week. Regardless of your needs, there must be a compromise in a marriage. Both partners' needs are important. We have a brain, we can rationalise. If you can't control your sexual urges, you are not happy, then you need to find a more suitable partner. In rare cases you can fix a low desire spouse.


----------



## LATERILUS79

hamadryad said:


> Lets say your husband decides at the age of 42 he doesn't want to work hard anymore, and is going to take a part time 12/hr job..... He's had enough of the rat race and can't do it anymore....If your partner is only up for 12/hr work part time, then you should be glad,..
> 
> You good with that?
> 
> _I think expecting a husband to agree to work like a dog until he's broken down is a sexist approach...Being the wife doesn't obligate a husband to be a donkey for life...._
> 
> See how this works??


LoL. The feminists do NOT see how that works! It goes against their double standards.


lifeistooshort said:


> I can see we're not going to agree on this and that's ok. You say you're fighting for the rights of jagoffs....on the slip side I do not support spouses cutting off a sex life. I have plenty of sex with my bf, and if we're not going to have sex why not just be friends?
> 
> My thing is that I feel that many posters are skewing towards the rights of whoever wants more sex to take precedence, and the other is just a jerk for not sucking it up. If you'd read my previous posts you'd see where I said that if twice a week is her preference they need to shoot for 3-4 this way everyday gets some of what they want. That's successful compromise, and I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect a long term relationship to be exactly like it was early on. Things change and the question is whether you can change and compromise together.
> 
> Now if that twice a week is her throwing him a bone to shut him up they have far bigger issues. If she's into the twice a week they can work with that. If not he's got tough questions to answer unless a counselor can help them delve into why.


lifestooshort, I understand where you are coming from.
Personally, I understand when men or women come here to vent and side with the person that has the higher sex drive - but I bet the vast majority of them think like you do. They would be elated with 3-5 times a week of high quality sex. I know I certainly would (even though I do want it every day). It would be no trouble for me to go to 3-5 times if it were high quality and the woman desired me.

the fight that I see are the women that come on here and immediately attack a man for wanting more sex in his marriage. He is considered a bully, a rapist, a manipulator….. it is ridiculous.


----------



## ccpowerslave

In Absentia said:


> It does matter. There is a big difference between 3 x month and 3 x week. Regardless of your needs, there must be a compromise in a marriage. Both partners' needs are important. We have a brain, we can rationalise. If you can't control your sexual urges, you are not happy, then you need to find a more suitable partner. In rare cases you can fix a low desire spouse.


It actually doesn’t according to sex therapists. The issue is there is a desire gap; the details of the gap don’t matter.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

In Absentia said:


> It does matter. There is a big difference between 3 x month and 3 x week. Regardless of your needs, there must be a compromise in a marriage. Both partners' needs are important. We have a brain, we can rationalise. If you can't control your sexual urges, you are not happy, then you need to find a more suitable partner. In rare cases you can fix a low desire spouse.


Or you need to learn to control your urges, find out why you are like you are.


----------



## ccpowerslave

To clarify what I said above about relative desire, at an abstract level the issue is the gap in desire not the absolute desire.

As someone pointed out earlier, clinically a sexless marriage is < 10x a year.

However, the desire gap will cause issues when it is over a certain amount. So partners in a sexless marriage by the clinical definition can have no desire gap and they’re perfectly happy.

Partners in a hugely sexual relationship in terms of statistics, like Enigma pointed out earlier having a partner that pursued him many times a day where he would have been happy with much less; well that’s an issue.

So arguments like person X or Y should be happy with Z because statistically… are missing the mark. It doesn’t matter what other people are doing or what YOU think should be ok for someone else because people are different.


----------



## lifeistooshort

LATERILUS79 said:


> LoL. The feminists do NOT see how that works! It goes against their double standards.
> 
> lifestooshort, I understand where you are coming from.
> Personally, I understand when men or women come here to vent and side with the person that has the higher sex drive - but I bet the vast majority of them think like you do. They would be elated with 3-5 times a week of high quality sex. I know I certainly would (even though I do want it every day). It would be no trouble for me to go to 3-5 times if it were high quality and the woman desired me.
> 
> the fight that I see are the women that come on here and immediately attack a man for wanting more sex in his marriage. He is considered a bully, a rapist, a manipulator….. it is ridiculous.


Well the vast majority of husbands that I see here certainly aren't bullies or rapists. If they were rapists they wouldn't care whether she wanted it and most want desire. Most are flawed (as we all are) but loving husbands.

Wanting desire is understandable. I know I have no interest in a guy who doesn't want me. We just have to balance expectations, and I've always disliked the phrase "meet their needs" because it suggests sucking it up and nobody wants that.

Well, my kids father did but he's an ass. Most of you guys aren't asses.

We really need to know what those 2 times a week are like.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

DownByTheRiver said:


> Or you need to learn to control your urges, find out why you are like you are.


Or you need to learn to control you lack of sexual desire, find out why you are like you are.


ETA: Neither the higher or lower driver person has anything wrong with them, but that doesn't mean they can't choose to be selfless and try to be flexible to help their partner. Your comments always make out the high driver partner to be in the wrong. That just isn't the case. They are who they are as much as the lower drive spouse. If the couple can't achieve mutual happiness they aren't cut out for each other, regardless of the issue, not just sex.


----------



## LATERILUS79

ccpowerslave said:


> To clarify what I said above about relative desire, at an abstract level the issue is the gap in desire not the absolute desire.
> 
> As someone pointed out earlier, clinically a dead bedroom is < 10x a year.
> 
> However, the desire gap will cause issues when it is over a certain amount. So partners in a dead bedroom by the clinical definition can have no desire gap and they’re perfectly happy.
> 
> Partners in a hugely sexual relationship in terms of statistics, like Enigma pointed out earlier having a partner that pursued him many times a day where he would have been happy with much less; well that’s an issue.
> 
> So arguments like person X or Y should be happy with Z because statistically… are missing the mark. It doesn’t matter what other people are doing or what YOU think should be ok for someone else because people are different.


A sexless marriage is <10 times a year. I think a dead bedroom falls more in line with what you are a saying: a desire gap.

getting terrible to “ok” sex like I was getting for 16 straight years twice a month is a dead bedroom as far as I am concerned. And plenty of times I didnt even get that.


----------



## ccpowerslave

LATERILUS79 said:


> A sexless marriage is <10 times a year. I think a dead bedroom falls more in line with what you are a saying: a desire gap.
> 
> getting terrible to “ok” sex like I was getting for 16 straight years twice a month is a dead bedroom as far as I am concerned. And plenty of times I didnt even get that.


Yep good looking out that’s right, corrected my terminology.


----------



## LATERILUS79

lifeistooshort said:


> Well the vast majority of husbands that I see here certainly aren't bullies or rapists. If they were rapists they wouldn't care whether she wanted it and most want desire. Most are flawed (as we all are) but loving husbands.
> 
> Wanting desire is understandable. I know I have no interest in a guy who doesn't want me. We just have to balance expectations, and I've always disliked the phrase "meet their needs" because it suggests sucking it up and nobody wants that.
> 
> Well, my kids father did but he's an ass. Most of you guys aren't asses.
> 
> We really need to know what those 2 times a week are like.


THANK YOU.

I knew this is the way you thought….. I just like conversations with women here until they say these things out loud.

the “loud” ones here continually say the worst things about men (and the terrible men say the worst things about women).

it is important that the reasonable people speak up. So many people come to this forum hurt and impressionable. I fear a lot of days they get bombarded by the loud people here that speak terrible things on a daily basis.


----------



## ccpowerslave

lifeistooshort said:


> We just have to balance expectations, and I've always disliked the phrase "meet their needs" because it suggests sucking it up and nobody wants that.


I think the error here is that “meeting their needs” when “they” is your husband or wife should not be zero sum.

It’s not if I meet your needs +5 then I am out -5. That doesn’t just apply to sex either. It’s possible for me to meet a need +5 and I am out 0, or maybe even up 1.

I expressed this earlier in the thread in terms of win-win and win-lose. If your relationship is good then sex should be win-win.

Personally I believe in the Michelle Weiner-Davis approach to this (clearly).


----------



## DownByTheRiver

BigDaddyNY said:


> Or you need to learn to control you lack of sexual desire, find out why you are like you are.
> 
> 
> ETA: Neither the higher or lower driver person has anything wrong with them, but that doesn't mean they can't choose to be selfless and try to be flexible to help their partner. Your comments always make out the high driver partner to be in the wrong. That just isn't the case. They are who they are as much as the lower drive spouse. If the couple can't achieve mutual happiness they aren't cut out for each other, regardless of the issue, not just sex.


That's not necessarily true, though. I agree people can be on a range and that that's normal. The problem comes in not because you're high but how you let that affect your relationship and family. I posted an article that has some thoughts on sexual narcissism and I think some people might find the shoe fits, while others won't. 

By the same token, yes, past abuse or some sort of stigma can affect sexuality in both men and women -- and it's just as likely to affect someone with hypersexuality as it is affecting someone with low sexuality. In fact, I've read about how trauma and abuse can create hypersexuality for decades in psychiatric material and it's only recently I've been finding much on low drive for that reason. It doesn't seem as common. 

So yes, psychological factors can affect your sexuality and, more importantly, how you handle that. I just found that article today and I just thought some of what she said sounded awfully familiar. Don't think "sexual narcissism" is really an official psychiatric category, but I think what she described is because I've seen it on here over and over again, and it all fits under narcissism, which is certainly a disorder. 

Of course, men who have been affected by abuse may manifest not in low drive so much as ED, and I was close with someone that that was the case from some trauma as a child. He wouldn't tell me at the time, maybe didn't know himself. It took therapy for him to function again close to 10 years later. 

Another guy I know had nightmares about sex, never anything positive. I still don't know why. I do know he is gay but he didn't think so at the time. He must have had some stigma or abuse, but he denied it. I used to try to get him to talk about it. Whatever it was, he buried it.

The only hypersexual person I've known was a woman, and she was diagnosed with bipolar and narcissism, a bad combination.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

ccpowerslave said:


> I think the error here is that “meeting their needs” when “they” is your husband or wife should not be zero sum.
> 
> It’s not if I meet your needs +5 then I am out -5. That doesn’t just apply to sex either. It’s possible for me to meet a need +5 and I am out 0, or maybe even up 1.
> 
> I expressed this earlier in the thread in terms of win-win and win-lose. If your relationship is good then sex should be win-win.
> 
> Personally I believe in the Michelle Weiner-Davis approach to this (clearly).


Watched her TED talk, very good. Something that resonated with me is when she talked about mutuality. Everything in marriage is about a mutual decision. Deciding when to get married, when to have kids and how many, buying house, the list goes on and on because everything is a mutual decision. Except sex. That is controlled by the lower desire person. You have to accept their unilateral decision, be happy about it, not complain and remain monogamous. Why is that okay? lol


This is well worth a watch:


----------



## DownByTheRiver

ccpowerslave said:


> I think the error here is that “meeting their needs” when “they” is your husband or wife should not be zero sum.
> 
> It’s not if I meet your needs +5 then I am out -5. That doesn’t just apply to sex either. It’s possible for me to meet a need +5 and I am out 0, or maybe even up 1.
> 
> I expressed this earlier in the thread in terms of win-win and win-lose. If your relationship is good then sex should be win-win.
> 
> Personally I believe in the Michelle Weiner-Davis approach to this (clearly).


I can't follow your math analogy at all, CCP. What does that mean? What do numbers have to do with two people both wanting sex at the same time or not?


----------



## In Absentia

ccpowerslave said:


> It actually doesn’t according to sex therapists. The issue is there is a desire gap; the details of the gap don’t matter.


Sex therapists focus on sex, you need to focus on the overall package, which is your marriage. If you can’t, you can get out of it. No guarantee you will find a better sexual partner, but you might find peace within yourself. I did, but I didn’t have a sexual relationship anymore.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

DownByTheRiver said:


> That's not necessarily true, though. I agree people can be on a range and that that's normal. The problem comes in not because you're high but how you let that affect your relationship and family. I posted an article that has some thoughts on sexual narcissism and I think some people might find the shoe fits, while others won't.
> 
> By the same token, yes, past abuse or some sort of stigma can affect sexuality in both men and women -- and it's just as likely to affect someone with hypersexuality as it is affecting someone with low sexuality. In fact, I've read about how trauma and abuse can create hypersexuality for decades in psychiatric material and it's only recently I've been finding much on low drive for that reason. It doesn't seem as common.
> 
> So yes, psychological factors can affect your sexuality and, more importantly, how you handle that. I just found that article today and I just thought some of what she said sounded awfully familiar. Don't think "sexual narcissism" is really an official psychiatric category, but I think what she described is because I've seen it on here over and over again, and it all fits under narcissism, which is certainly a disorder.
> 
> Of course, men who have been affected by abuse may manifest not in low drive so much as ED, and I was close with someone that that was the case from some trauma as a child. He wouldn't tell me at the time, maybe didn't know himself. It took therapy for him to function again close to 10 years later.
> 
> Another guy I know had nightmares about sex, never anything positive. I still don't know why. I do know he is gay but he didn't think so at the time. He must have had some stigma or abuse, but he denied it. I used to try to get him to talk about it. Whatever it was, he buried it.
> 
> The only hypersexual person I've known was a woman, and she was diagnosed with bipolar and narcissism, a bad combination.


Is there a reason you want to take it to the extreme of hypersexuality and abuse? We are talking about a spouse that want frequency sex with his wife, meaning more than once or twice a week, maybe even daily if possible. I don't think that is anywhere near hypersexuality. Sounds like a fairly typical man to me.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

BigDaddyNY said:


> Watched her TED talk, very good. Something that resonated with me is when she talked about mutuality. Everything in marriage is about a mutual decision. Deciding when to get married, when to have kids and how many, buying house, the list goes on and on because everything is a mutual decision. Except sex. That is controlled by the lower desire person. You have to accept their unilateral decision, be happy about it, not complain and remain monogamous. Why is that okay? lol
> 
> 
> This is well worth a watch:


In fact I just re-watched it and she sure does an excellent job of saying pretty much everything I feel about the subject, only she is much better at it.


----------



## ccpowerslave

DownByTheRiver said:


> I can't follow your math analogy at all, CCP. What does that mean?


Zero sum is an idea from game theory, the first paragraph here describes the idea:



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-sum_game



So my example let’s say my wife “gives me” awesome sex like she did last night. She started out normal and decided you know what I’m making it special. Let’s say the value of that to me was 5. I feel great today, like really good.

In a zero sum situation to give me 5 she loses 5. So:

+5 + (-5) = 0

However I am pretty sure that is not what happened at all.

In actions involving someone you love they’re often not zero sum.


----------



## ccpowerslave

In Absentia said:


> Sex therapists focus on sex, you need to focus on the overall package, which is your marriage. If you can’t, you can get out of it. No guarantee you will find a better sexual partner, but you might find peace within yourself. I did, but I didn’t have a sexual relationship anymore.


Of course. I have made extreme changes in my lifestyle over a period of years to move the needle and almost all of those things meant trying to decipher my wife’s “love languages” and speaking them.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

ccpowerslave said:


> Zero sum is an idea from game theory, the first paragraph here describes the idea:
> 
> 
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-sum_game
> 
> 
> 
> So my example let’s say my wife “gives me” awesome sex like she did last night. She started out normal and decided you know what I’m making it special. Let’s say the value of that to me was 5. I feel great today, like really good.
> 
> In a zero sum situation to give me 5 she loses 5. So:
> 
> +5 + (-5) = 0
> 
> However I am pretty sure that is not what happened at all.
> 
> In actions involving someone you love they’re often not zero sum.


Yes, what you described is most definitely a win-win.


----------



## ccpowerslave

BTW conversely for someone you don’t like or are not attracted to then the equation is flipped the other way. To get +5 someone is giving -100.

Those people shouldn’t even be together.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

BigDaddyNY said:


> Is there a reason you want to take it to the extreme of hypersexuality and abuse? We are talking about a spouse that want frequency sex with his wife, meaning more than once or twice a week, maybe even daily if possible. I don't think that is anywhere near hypersexuality. Sounds like a fairly typical man to me.


You really like me to repeat myself, don't you? Badgering your wife for sex she doesn't want is abusive. Your happiness is no more important than hers. 

High drive is hypersexuality. I was hypersexual for one year myself. The hypersexual one is the outlier and falls at the extreme of the scale, as many surveys have informed us. And yet you want to fix the woman who is smack in the middle of the scale functioning just fine instead of the outlier who is in the extreme and making it affect his or her life and eroding it.

Men for whom that becomes a problem whose focus seems entirely on their penis really ought to want to see if therapy would help them understand why. Anyone who doesn't want sex at all should get a hormone panel and go to therapy to find out if there's a reason, physical or mental. The article I posted lists some possible reasons, which include low self-esteem, thus needing validation to feel better. I think that is a common one. That shouldn't have to be someone else's problem when you could do therapy and fix it.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

ccpowerslave said:


> Zero sum is an idea from game theory, the first paragraph here describes the idea:
> 
> 
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-sum_game
> 
> 
> 
> So my example let’s say my wife “gives me” awesome sex like she did last night. She started out normal and decided you know what I’m making it special. Let’s say the value of that to me was 5. I feel great today, like really good.
> 
> In a zero sum situation to give me 5 she loses 5. So:
> 
> +5 + (-5) = 0
> 
> However I am pretty sure that is not what happened at all.
> 
> In actions involving someone you love they’re often not zero sum.


No idea what that meant still. What was the value to her? I think that's the part of the equation you're missing.


----------



## lifeistooshort

ccpowerslave said:


> I think the error here is that “meeting their needs” when “they” is your husband or wife should not be zero sum.
> 
> It’s not if I meet your needs +5 then I am out -5. That doesn’t just apply to sex either. It’s possible for me to meet a need +5 and I am out 0, or maybe even up 1.
> 
> I expressed this earlier in the thread in terms of win-win and win-lose. If your relationship is good then sex should be win-win.
> 
> Personally I believe in the Michelle Weiner-Davis approach to this (clearly).


I think you're talking about a form of bean counting. You got x so I must get my own x, which sometimes makes sense and sometimes doesn't. Relationships are seldom exactly 50/50 in terms of who gets what.

Ideally a loving wife would think to herself "yeah, I could do with once a week but I know hubby wants more so I'll go along with some more and enjoy the intimacy provided he's reasonable in what he's asking for". Asking me to have sex and enjoy intimacy when I may not have been interested on my own is way different then demanding porn sex when I'm tired. I might go along with the intimacy but if I'm supposed to give a performance you can get bent (hypothetically speaking of course). I'm not much of an actress anyway so whatever bf gets from me is real.

Sometimes each party needs to think about what their spouse wants. The problem cones in when one starts to feel like they give a lot and get very little.


----------



## LATERILUS79

BigDaddyNY said:


> Is there a reason you want to take it to the extreme of hypersexuality and abuse? We are talking about a spouse that want frequency sex with his wife, meaning more than once or twice a week, maybe even daily if possible. I don't think that is anywhere near hypersexuality. Sounds like a fairly typical man to me.


No matter how much sense you make, you are in a no-win situation here. 

Please note that DBTR will NOT give the same advice to the almost once-a-week new woman that finds TAM because she is in a dead bedroom. Somehow, the high sex drive women that "badger" their low sex drive husbands for sex are not "bullies" or "rapists" like she describes men that are in dead bedrooms. 

Note the double standard.


----------



## LATERILUS79

lifeistooshort said:


> I think you're talking about a form of bean counting. You got x so I must get my own x, which sometimes makes sense and sometimes doesn't. Relationships are seldom exactly 50/50 in terms of who gets what.
> 
> Ideally a loving wife would think to herself "yeah, I could do with once a week but I know hubby wants more so I'll go along with some more and enjoy the intimacy provided he's reasonable in what he's asking for". Asking me to have sex and enjoy intimacy when I may not have been interested on my own is way different then demanding porn sex when I'm tired. I might go along with the intimacy but if I'm supposed to give a performance you can get bent (hypothetically speaking of course). I'm not much of an actress anyway so whatever bf gets from me is real.
> 
> Sometimes each party needs to think about what their spouse wants. The problem cones in when one starts to feel like they give a lot and get very little.


The biggest discrepancy when it comes to bean counting "love" is in the love languages. No question. I try not to think about it because all it does is piss me off more.

I would spend HOURS crafting and building things for my exwife. I would spend HOURS doing acts of service. I did it all with love in my heart. I did it with my BEST effort because I wanted to her to see that she was loved in the way that she feels love (well, assuming she can feel love. That's a debate for another day). 

What I typically find here with low sex drive people is that they don't even come close to the time spent in return. How much time do you really need to invest to have some good sex? 10 minutes? 15? 

Would it be so hard to show that kind of desire a few times a week? 

The answer of course is no. It's not hard. Instead, the low drive person continues to act like sex is a chore and just so damn difficult! It is ridiculous. You can't bean count with a low drive partner. You will lose and you will lose BAD.


----------



## hamadryad

BigDaddyNY said:


> Watched her TED talk, very good. Something that resonated with me is when she talked about mutuality. Everything in marriage is about a mutual decision. Deciding when to get married, when to have kids and how many, buying house, the list goes on and on because everything is a mutual decision. Except sex. That is controlled by the lower desire person. You have to accept their unilateral decision, be happy about it, not complain and remain monogamous. Why is that okay? lol
> 
> 
> This is well worth a watch:



All those items aren't really mutual. Not really in my experiences. In most cases it's the woman that gets most of the say in those life decisions, and while it's possible for the opposite to be the case, in most situations it's the guy with his d!ck in his hand.

And then they die earlier. 😆


----------



## hamadryad

Women commenting on desire and libido in males is the equivalent of males commenting about menstrual events and conditions of women. 

In other words, you have no clue.


----------



## In Absentia

ccpowerslave said:


> Of course. I have made extreme changes in my lifestyle over a period of years to move the needle and almost all of those things meant trying to decipher my wife’s “love languages” and speaking them.


I know. And I know that you are a caring husband (and you like metal 😊). I’ve been there. I found very difficult to decipher my wife’s love languages and I failed. The fact that she was unable to express her emotions didn’t help. Maybe you should try and learn how to deal with the situation not from a resentment point of view, but acceptance. I failed to do that when I was your age and the marriage collapsed, eventually. Not saying it’s going to happen to you. Just exercise prudence.


----------



## ccpowerslave

lifeistooshort said:


> I think you're talking about a form of bean counting. You got x so I must get my own x, which sometimes makes sense and sometimes doesn't. Relationships are seldom exactly 50/50 in terms of who gets what.
> 
> Ideally a loving wife would think to herself "yeah, I could do with once a week but I know hubby wants more so I'll go along with some more and enjoy the intimacy provided he's reasonable in what he's asking for". Asking me to have sex and enjoy intimacy when I may not have been interested on my own is way different then demanding porn sex when I'm tired. I might go along with the intimacy but if I'm supposed to give a performance you can get bent (hypothetically speaking of course). I'm not much of an actress anyway so whatever bf gets from me is real.
> 
> Sometimes each party needs to think about what their spouse wants. The problem cones in when one starts to feel like they give a lot and get very little.


I’m not, it’s a simple model which is easy to understand in that one point to give costs one point.

What I am suggesting is that in a loving relationship giving sex in the absence of criteria like I mentioned many pages earlier has zero cost and probably a positive benefit.

In your case if I tried to model it, whatever positive you glean from sex turns to a negative after 5 times a week. If it doesn’t, you’d just do it more.

So my question would be why?

Time to think about it, what are you thinking about?

I can see being with someone 24-7 is too much for some people. Certainly the pandemic brought that home with divorces. 

So maybe you need space to be away for yourself and that recharges your “pool” of energy to deal with your partner. I don’t know if you live with your partner and sleep in the same bed every night but let’s say you did.

If he initiated the 2 times a week you’d pass on, would you reject him? If you did reject him and it wasn’t for physical reasons, how would you do it?

Keep in mind I already listed a whole host of physical and mental criteria including fatigue either physical or mental I think are fine reasons to abstain.


----------



## lifeistooshort

ccpowerslave said:


> I’m not, it’s a simple model which is easy to understand in that one point to give costs one point.
> 
> What I am suggesting is that in a loving relationship giving sex in the absence of criteria like I mentioned many pages earlier has zero cost and probably a positive benefit.
> 
> In your case if I tried to model it, whatever positive you glean from sex turns to a negative after 5 times a week. If it doesn’t, you’d just do it more.
> 
> So my question would be why?
> 
> Time to think about it, what are you thinking about?
> 
> I can see being with someone 24-7 is too much for some people. Certainly the pandemic brought that home with divorces.
> 
> So maybe you need space to be away for yourself and that recharges your “pool” of energy to deal with your partner. I don’t know if you live with your partner and sleep in the same bed every night but let’s say you did.
> 
> If he initiated the 2 times a week you’d pass on, would you reject him? If you did reject him and it wasn’t for physical reasons, how would you do it?
> 
> Keep in mind I already listed a whole host of physical and mental criteria including fatigue either physical or mental I think are fine reasons to abstain.


You're projecting your response. I find the build up and anticipation to be a turn on.

In general though I agree with what you're saying. I really don't reject him but if I was going to I'd tell him I was tired. He's getting enough sex that he'd be fine with it. That's probably the key.


----------



## ccpowerslave

DownByTheRiver said:


> No idea what that meant still. What was the value to her? I think that's the part of the equation you're missing.


Well that’s easy.

First off she laid on me and told me about all the problems her extended family is having while I gave her a back rub. I listened to her for about 45 minutes.

She then initiated on me, started plain screwing (for us) and then switched it up and as far as I could tell got the payoff from the sex part.

Then all day today I was in a great mood. I made her tea before she got up. I helped her with gardening. We had a lovely morning and I was in a good mood all morning.

Had she just rejected me for the 2nd night in a row to watch Hallmark movies and play Candy Crush my interactions with her would not have been as good.

So I would say to give me a +5 instead of costing her anything maybe she ends up at a +2 or a +1. So why wouldn’t you do that if there’s nothing wrong with you?

I mean I understand if you don’t like your spouse or aren’t attracted to them, they suck in bed so you can’t have an orgasm, they’re mentally or physically abusive, etc…

But what if they’re not and literally you’re just too lazy to get off the couch because it’s nice to watch a Hallmark movie?

I was the opposite of this. My wife had asks of me and I thought whatever I was doing was better than what she wanted me to do. Well guess what I stopped doing that. What I used to view as a cost, I learned that I was wrong and actually one of the best things you can do for your own happiness and harmony in a marriage is making sure your partner’s “love tank” is full.


----------



## In Absentia

ccpowerslave said:


> Well that’s easy.
> 
> First off she laid on me and told me about all the problems her extended family is having while I gave her a back rub. I listened to her for about 45 minutes.
> 
> She then initiated on me, started plain screwing (for us) and then switched it up and as far as I could tell got the payoff from the sex part.
> 
> Then all day today I was in a great mood. I made her tea before she got up. I helped her with gardening. We had a lovely morning and I was in a good mood all morning.
> 
> Had she just rejected me for the 2nd night in a row to watch Hallmark movies and play Candy Crush my interactions with her would not have been as good.
> 
> So I would say to give me a +5 instead of costing her anything maybe she ends up at a +2 or a +1. So why wouldn’t you do that if there’s nothing wrong with you?
> 
> I mean I understand if you don’t like your spouse or aren’t attracted to them, they suck in bed so you can’t have an orgasm, they’re mentally or physically abusive, etc…
> 
> But what if they’re not and literally you’re just too lazy to get off the couch because it’s nice to watch a Hallmark movie?
> 
> I was the opposite of this. My wife had asks of me and I thought whatever I was doing was better than what she wanted me to do. Well guess what I stopped doing that. What I used to view as a cost, I learned that I was wrong and actually one of the best things you can do for your own happiness and harmony in a marriage is making sure your partner’s “love tank” is full.


To be honest, I’m quite amazed you don’t get it. Sex is a priority for you, it’s not for her. You are approaching it in a transactional way. I did this for her, she didn’t replicate. Yes, a Hallmark movie is more important than sex with you in that particular instance. Because she has other priorities. This is typical man. You need to learn to understand your wife. She is not lazy… she doesn’t have the same needs as you do. Also, she knows when you are pushing for sex, even if you think you are not giving the signals. You do. That’s a turn off if you have mismatched drives. It’s not like you are having sex twice a month, like we did. I think you need a reality check. Sorry to be harsh.


----------



## ccpowerslave

In Absentia said:


> To be honest, I’m quite amazed you don’t get it. Sex is a priority for you, it’s not for her. You are approaching it in a transactional way. I did this for her, she didn’t replicate. Yes, a Hallmark movie is more important than sex with you in that particular instance. Because she has other priorities. This is typical man. You need to learn to understand your wife. She is not lazy… she doesn’t have the same needs as you do. Also, she knows when you are pushing for sex, even if you think you are not giving the signals. You do. That’s a turn off if you have mismatched drives. It’s not like you are having sex twice a month, like we did. I think you need a reality check. Sorry to be harsh.


I had sex twice a month for probably 13 years with her.

I also had sex with her probably 10+ times a week for at least 5 years with her.

It’s the same person.

Also of course I get it. It’s still messed up.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

ccpowerslave said:


> Well that’s easy.
> 
> First off she laid on me and told me about all the problems her extended family is having while I gave her a back rub. I listened to her for about 45 minutes.
> 
> She then initiated on me, started plain screwing (for us) and then switched it up and as far as I could tell got the payoff from the sex part.
> 
> Then all day today I was in a great mood. I made her tea before she got up. I helped her with gardening. We had a lovely morning and I was in a good mood all morning.
> 
> Had she just rejected me for the 2nd night in a row to watch Hallmark movies and play Candy Crush my interactions with her would not have been as good.
> 
> So I would say to give me a +5 instead of costing her anything maybe she ends up at a +2 or a +1. So why wouldn’t you do that if there’s nothing wrong with you?
> 
> I mean I understand if you don’t like your spouse or aren’t attracted to them, they suck in bed so you can’t have an orgasm, they’re mentally or physically abusive, etc…
> 
> But what if they’re not and literally you’re just too lazy to get off the couch because it’s nice to watch a Hallmark movie?
> 
> I was the opposite of this. My wife had asks of me and I thought whatever I was doing was better than what she wanted me to do. Well guess what I stopped doing that. What I used to view as a cost, I learned that I was wrong and actually one of the best things you can do for your own happiness and harmony in a marriage is making sure your partner’s “love tank” is full.


Sex is just not her only focus or most people's only focus. She doesn't want a one note life where everything is just a means to an end for sex. Why shouldn't she watch TV or play a game if that's what relaxes her? Why should you get to set her priorities for her just to serve yourself? You didn't do any of that stuff selflessly. It really makes you mad if you do anything for her and she doesn't reciprocate and pay you with sex. 

Look I think you're a really nice guy but I think you're missing the big picture. There is no reason why she should have to live the way you want her to just to please yourself. 


Not costing her anything? You've got to be kidding. It's costing her her free will.


----------



## ccpowerslave

DownByTheRiver said:


> Not costing her anything? You've got to be kidding. It's costing her her free will.


I want her to choose with her free will to make me happy. Making her happy makes me happy.

The litmus test I use is to say things in a sentence.

“My wife wants to go on a road trip to a state park but I’d rather drink beer and watch football.”

I used to say that all the time.

Was my life better when I said that? No. In fact reading it now it’s embarrassing. I regret doing that.

“My husband wants me to come to bed and have sex but I don’t feel like it. I’d rather watch a Hallmark movie and play Candy Crush.”

If she’s actually happy saying that sentence then we’re mismatched. By the way I also can’t really be too critical of it (see above).


----------



## ccpowerslave

DownByTheRiver said:


> Sex is just not her only focus or most people's only focus. She doesn't want a one note life where everything is just a means to an end for sex. Why shouldn't she watch TV or play a game if that's what relaxes her? Why should you get to set her priorities for her just to serve yourself?


She has plenty of time to do all of those things. It’s not about a lack of time.

Believe me if I had the answer I’d be making a lot of money doing TED talks and selling books.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

ccpowerslave said:


> She has plenty of time to do all of those things. It’s not about a lack of time.
> 
> Believe me if I had the answer I’d be making a lot of money doing TED talks and selling books.


Whether she has plenty of time to do those things is irrelevant. She should get to do it when she wants to do them not when you think it's okay for her to do them.


----------



## ccpowerslave

DownByTheRiver said:


> Whether she has plenty of time to do those things is irrelevant. She should get to do it when she wants to do them not when you think it's okay for her to do them.


I am open for fitting sex in whenever she can fit it into her schedule. I will drop what I’m doing and come running.

As an example men’s testosterone peaks in the morning, early.

I would have sex with her every morning but I have sex with her ZERO mornings. Why? She told me she doesn’t like having sex in the morning.


----------



## lifeistooshort

ccpowerslave said:


> I want her to choose with her free will to make me happy. Making her happy makes me happy.
> 
> The litmus test I use is to say things in a sentence.
> 
> “My wife wants to go on a road trip to a state park but I’d rather drink beer and watch football.”
> 
> I used to say that all the time.
> 
> Was my life better when I said that? No. In fact reading it now it’s embarrassing. I regret doing that.
> 
> “My husband wants me to come to bed and have sex but I don’t feel like it. I’d rather watch a Hallmark movie and play Candy Crush.”
> 
> If she’s actually happy saying that sentence then we’re mismatched. By the way I also can’t really be too critical of it (see above).


Just so you know that I understand, I love lounging in bed in the morning. To me it's the best sex time and as it turns out bf is a morning sex guy too. Yay for me!

Ex hb however was far more interested in jumping out of bed to go running. You know I'm a runner too so it's not like I don't get it, but is it so terrible to spend time snuggling with your wife? But he had that pesky ED he wouldn't deal with......rather than try to deal with it and snuggle with his wife he'd jump out of bed to run.

Good riddance. Ironically I was a better runner.....I can laugh about it now that I've upgraded. But it does suck when your spouse has other things they'd rather do and if OP is experiencing that as well that's a tough one to address.


----------



## Beach123

Why not simply tell her you love her but feel very dissatisfied with your sex life?
Find a way to COMPROMISE in the marriage…that means you both give a little towards the middle ground.
That’s what you’ll both end up paying a lot of money to a therapist for = compromise.
It’s also a good idea to sit down together and find out why you both feel the way you feel about your sex life. When she talks - you listen. When you talk - she listens.


----------



## ccpowerslave

lifeistooshort said:


> Just so you know that I understand, I love lounging in bed in the morning. To me it's the best sex time and as it turns out bf is a morning sex guy too. Yay for me!
> 
> Ex hb however was far more interested in jumping out of bed to go running. You know I'm a runner too so it's not like I don't get it, but is it so terrible to spend time snuggling with your wife? But he had that pesky ED he wouldn't deal with......rather than try to deal with it and snuggle with his wife he'd jump out of bed to run.
> 
> Good riddance. Ironically I was a better runner.....I can laugh about it now that I've upgraded. But it does suck when your spouse has other things they'd rather do and if OP is experiencing that as well that's a tough one to address.


It is a challenge. I think the only way is to communicate about it as openly as possible.

My wife if not moved by external stimuli will generally stay in bed until 9-10am because she won’t go to bed until 2am.

I am an athlete and I get up early before the sun comes up and train and then I need to sleep. My father always did this and I copied him because it worked for him.

The thing is, if you’re determined to have sex you figure it out. What I worked out with her is she doesn’t want sex in the morning and she doesn’t really even want to be touched or anything just sleep. Ok that’s easy.

She’s not going to go to bed at 9pm. I said ok well can you come to bed with me and then get up and go do whatever after? It turns out the answer is yes, she can!

Another revelation, sex makes me sleepy. Sex makes her less sleepy. So she doesn’t want to have sex if she’s actually tired and going to bed.

Ok. I can work with that. She’s tired and coming to bed, go to bed.

So I’m not a moron, I try to set things up so that there are good conditions.


----------



## lifeistooshort

ccpowerslave said:


> It is a challenge. I think the only way is to communicate about it as openly as possible.
> 
> My wife if not moved by external stimuli will generally stay in bed until 9-10am because she won’t go to bed until 2am.
> 
> I am an athlete and I get up early before the sun comes up and train and then I need to sleep. My father always did this and I copied him because it worked for him.
> 
> The thing is, if you’re determined to have sex you figure it out. What I worked out with her is she doesn’t want sex in the morning and she doesn’t really even want to be touched or anything just sleep. Ok that’s easy.
> 
> She’s not going to go to bed at 9pm. I said ok well can you come to bed with me and then get up and go do whatever after? It turns out the answer is yes, she can!
> 
> Another revelation, sex makes me sleepy. Sex makes her less sleepy. So she doesn’t want to have sex if she’s actually tired and going to bed.
> 
> Ok. I can work with that. She’s tired and coming to bed, go to bed.
> 
> So I’m not a moron, I try to set things up so that there are good conditions.


What if your wife wanted morning sex?

How would you work that out?

We'll just do it early then get up to bike ride or whatever.


----------



## Rus47

@ccpowerslave Did all of this stuff just suddenly change? Seems it hasn't been that long ago you said you were ready to hit the eject button. Then you made a bunch of changes and your marriage stabilized for awhile. Now you are back trying to pull levers again to stabilize things again. Kinda a target that keeps moving all of the time? Honestly feel bad for you, seems you have been and are doing best you know how. Marriage shouldn't be so hard of a ride.


----------



## ccpowerslave

lifeistooshort said:


> What if your wife wanted morning sex?
> 
> How would you work that out?
> 
> We'll just do it early then get up to bike ride or whatever.


Yes exactly.

I would even move my workout or possibly even change it.

These days I do not do road bikes like I did back in the day, but when I did those my riding buddy we would often go during the work day after she left for work but before Silicon Valley starts (10am). So I would say drive to Mount Diablo’s base and do the up and down (~3250’ in 11 miles) and zip back.


----------



## ccpowerslave

Rus47 said:


> @ccpowerslave Did all of this stuff just suddenly change? Seems it hasn't been that long ago you said you were ready to hit the eject button. Then you made a bunch of changes and your marriage stabilized for awhile. Now you are back trying to pull levers again to stabilize things again. Kinda a target that keeps moving all of the time? Honestly feel bad for you, seems you have been and are doing best you know how. Marriage shouldn't be so hard of a ride.


It was about 3 years ago I had the talk with my wife that things change or we’re done. By that time I had already spent about 2 years puzzling out how I found myself in that predicament and then maybe 6+ months of extreme behavior changes on my part but really I started changing it over those two years.

Yes things did stabilize to where I stopped thinking about sex and it was no longer something I considered to be a problem in our marriage.

Over the last few months though I have been feeling it has been off or out of balance. Since I keep detailed records of it I went back and looked to see if I was crazy, and it still seemed like “oh it’s still a lot”.

So recently I felt more and more like something was wrong and I went and checked again but in more detail actually counting and yes it has fallen off again from the period I considered it “fixed”.

So I wondered again if I was doing something stupid. I thought about it a fair bit. Being under the 3:1 ratio I described earlier though I’m not at a crisis level but something has changed and I measured it and I have objective evidence of it.

So why?

That is where I am at now.

One other thing is I started recording this year when we don’t do anything but I didn’t care because I was exhausted. So I found maybe 3 entries a month where we didn’t have sex that day but I was exhausted. If my wife initiated I would have done it, but I would not have initiated. So that accounts for some change but not all of it.


----------



## LATERILUS79

ccpowerslave said:


> Well that’s easy.
> 
> First off she laid on me and told me about all the problems her extended family is having while I gave her a back rub. I listened to her for about 45 minutes.
> 
> She then initiated on me, started plain screwing (for us) and then switched it up and as far as I could tell got the payoff from the sex part.
> 
> Then all day today I was in a great mood. I made her tea before she got up. I helped her with gardening. We had a lovely morning and I was in a good mood all morning.
> 
> Had she just rejected me for the 2nd night in a row to watch Hallmark movies and play Candy Crush my interactions with her would not have been as good.
> 
> So I would say to give me a +5 instead of costing her anything maybe she ends up at a +2 or a +1. So why wouldn’t you do that if there’s nothing wrong with you?
> 
> I mean I understand if you don’t like your spouse or aren’t attracted to them, they suck in bed so you can’t have an orgasm, they’re mentally or physically abusive, etc…
> 
> But what if they’re not and literally you’re just too lazy to get off the couch because it’s nice to watch a Hallmark movie?
> 
> I was the opposite of this. My wife had asks of me and I thought whatever I was doing was better than what she wanted me to do. Well guess what I stopped doing that. What I used to view as a cost, I learned that I was wrong and actually one of the best things you can do for your own happiness and harmony in a marriage is making sure your partner’s “love tank” is full.


Ok - you and I see it the same way, CC. 


I’m with you. It is laziness. 


You talk about filling up her “love tank”. I understand exactly what you mean. This is what I was referring to as spending hours upon hours doing the things for her love languages, but when it’s time to fill up your love tank… all of a sudden, an action that takes far less time than what you spent on her love language is just too much to bear! Oh no!!!! 

And of course, asking for sex because that is how you feel loved it what gets the bad stigma. 


Spending a full weekend doing what she wants because she loves quality time? That’s cool. Definitely it is on you to put in that effort. In fact, you would be the one looked down upon if you were like, “naw. I don’t feel like spending my entire weekend with you so that you feel loved. I’ll watch a hallmark movie instead.”


----------



## LATERILUS79

DownByTheRiver said:


> Sex is just not her only focus or most people's only focus. She doesn't want a one note life where everything is just a means to an end for sex. Why shouldn't she watch TV or play a game if that's what relaxes her? Why should you get to set her priorities for her just to serve yourself? You didn't do any of that stuff selflessly. It really makes you mad if you do anything for her and she doesn't reciprocate and pay you with sex.
> 
> Look I think you're a really nice guy but I think you're missing the big picture. There is no reason why she should have to live the way you want her to just to please yourself.
> 
> 
> Not costing her anything? You've got to be kidding. It's costing her her free will.


Costing her free will?

Sometimes I wonder where you come up with this stuff. 

Wow. Just amazing. 

CC’s wife can stay or leave as she chooses. Just like anyone else. Free will lost. Give me a break. Do you seriously believe what you are saying?


----------



## ccpowerslave

LATERILUS79 said:


> And of course, asking for sex because that is how you feel loved it what gets the bad stigma.


I don’t ask anymore, haven’t for quite a while.

I told her several times I want it every day and if she is game show up. I will initiate if she shows up to bed with appropriate attire otherwise I will go to bed. If she comes to bed wearing a sweatshirt I will give her a back rub and if she doesn’t initiate I’ll go to bed.

She knows what the deal is and she wants to do it or she doesn’t.


----------



## In Absentia

ccpowerslave said:


> I don’t ask anymore, haven’t for quite a while.
> 
> I told her several times I want it every day and if she is game show up. I will initiate if she shows up to bed with appropriate attire otherwise I will go to bed. If she comes to bed wearing a sweatshirt I will give her a back rub and if she doesn’t initiate I’ll go to bed.
> 
> She knows what the deal is and she wants to do it or she doesn’t.


You sound very unhappy. Back to square one. You are still fairly young, no kids... jump ship.


----------



## Rus47

ccpowerslave said:


> I don’t ask anymore, haven’t for quite a while.
> 
> I told her several times I want it every day and if she is game show up. I will initiate if she shows up to bed with appropriate attire otherwise I will go to bed. If she comes to bed wearing a sweatshirt I will give her a back rub and if she doesn’t initiate I’ll go to bed.
> 
> She knows what the deal is and she wants to do it or she doesn’t.


I have honestly forgotten your ages, if she is in menopause, if she is on HRT. My impression is both of you are late 40s, both of you still working. I believe you mentioned awhile ago that what was always running through her mind was work, her family, travel, hobbies, games, and TV. It sounds like while maybe sex was once high on her list, it no longer is. There isn't any space left in her head most of the time. Maybe time gets away with all of the other things she likes to spend time doing so she "forgets".

I know that a "schedule" turns most people off. But could it work for the two of you? Right now it is left for her to show "availability". And if she doesn't over time, the resentment builds. How would it work if the two of you agreed on days and times to "get it on". Several years ago, my wife decided 4-5PM was "our time". Every day. We don't schedule anything else like working in the garden, or watching TV, or doing our hobbies during that time. And when 4PM arrives and I am working on something, she will come ask "do you want to go lay down". Now of course, life intervenes. Maybe we are at an appointment, or traveling, or something else. Or maybe one or both of us are down with Covid. But that hour is "reserved" for us to be together and has some priority with us.

Since both of you work, finding particular times and days would be challenging, but would it be worth a discussion?


----------



## ccpowerslave

In Absentia said:


> You sound very unhappy. Back to square one. You are still fairly young, no kids... jump ship.


I wouldn’t say that but I’m not hugely happy and on occasion I am not happy.


----------



## In Absentia

ccpowerslave said:


> I wouldn’t say that but I’m not hugely happy and on occasion I am not happy.


You just sound depressed to me. Are you? I've been there, sex-wise. Not fun. I'm happy now I don't have to deal with it any more. It was torture.


----------



## ccpowerslave

In Absentia said:


> You just sound depressed to me. Are you? I've been there, sex-wise. Not fun. I'm happy now I don't have to deal with it any more. It was torture.


I don’t think so at least not like a mental episode or anything.


----------



## In Absentia

ccpowerslave said:


> I don’t think so at least not like a mental episode or anything.


You don't need to have a "mental episode". You might just be mildly depressed. But I'm not here to be your psych... take a step back and do something you enjoy (no, not that one... )


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

LATERILUS79 said:


> The biggest discrepancy when it comes to bean counting "love" is in the love languages. No question. I try not to think about it because all it does is piss me off more.
> 
> I would spend HOURS crafting and building things for my exwife. I would spend HOURS doing acts of service. I did it all with love in my heart. I did it with my BEST effort because I wanted to her to see that she was loved in the way that she feels love (well, assuming she can feel love. That's a debate for another day).
> 
> What I typically find here with low sex drive people is that they don't even come close to the time spent in return. How much time do you really need to invest to have some good sex? 10 minutes? 15?
> 
> Would it be so hard to show that kind of desire a few times a week?
> 
> The answer of course is no. It's not hard. Instead, the low drive person continues to act like sex is a chore and just so damn difficult! It is ridiculous. You can't bean count with a low drive partner. You will lose and you will lose BAD.


Sex isn't one of the love languages. They are very careful to call it 'touch' but don't specify that it be sexual. I have also noted that the language you 'speak' love with is not necessarily the one you 'hear' love with. A spouse isn't going to reciprocate with your preference if she naturally shows her love some other way.

Even if your wife felt loved by all these acts of service, she may have reciprocated with the love language she speaks. Did she make a really fancy dinners for you after you built the thing? (acts of service) Did she gush about how great you are for doing this? (words of affirmation) Did she give you a big hug and kiss? (touch) Did she take an interest in finding out how you made it? (quality time) Did she get you something in return for the thing you built? (gifts)

The way you express it seems so transactional. You spent hours building something for her, so you expect her to show her gratitude by giving you access to her body for ten minutes. That expectation right there is a turn-off, it doesn't create desire at all. It seems like you're asking her to lie to you, to exhibit desire she doesn't actually feel. Just because you voluntarily built her something.

Sex is a completely different thing to the love languages.

The OP's issue is similar. For whatever reason, his wife doesn't look at him and think of sex. He's got to pin down why, and see if he can do anything about it.


----------



## LATERILUS79

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Sex isn't one of the love languages. They are very careful to call it 'touch' but don't specify that it be sexual. I have also noted that the language you 'speak' love with is not necessarily the one you 'hear' love with. A spouse isn't going to reciprocate with your preference if she naturally shows her love some other way.
> 
> Even if your wife felt loved by all these acts of service, she may have reciprocated with the love language she speaks. Did she make a really fancy dinners for you after you built the thing? (acts of service) Did she gush about how great you are for doing this? (words of affirmation) Did she give you a big hug and kiss? (touch) Did she take an interest in finding out how you made it? (quality time) Did she get you something in return for the thing you built? (gifts)
> 
> The way you express it seems so transactional. You spent hours building something for her, so you expect her to show her gratitude by giving you access to her body for ten minutes. That expectation right there is a turn-off, it doesn't create desire at all. It seems like you're asking her to lie to you, to exhibit desire she doesn't actually feel. Just because you voluntarily built her something.
> 
> Sex is a completely different thing to the love languages.
> 
> The OP's issue is similar. For whatever reason, his wife doesn't look at him and think of sex. He's got to pin down why, and see if he can do anything about it.


I'm not married. My exwife ran away because she is a coward and would prefer blowing up my family as opposed to looking at herself in the mirror and solving her issues. 

Call it transactional if you want. Doesn't matter. I'll never be in another dead bedroom again for the remainder of my life. I'd rather have no sex than to be abused again by low sex drive partner who needed to control EVERYTHING. 

I understand what you are talking about when it comes to "speaking" love and "hearing" love. My exwife and I spoke VERY CLEARLY on what is our love languages. She knew very well how I felt loved. I knew very well how she felt loved. So please, spare me the "Oh, she was just expressing love back to you in the way she speaks.".

Nope.

No acts of service. No gifts. No words of affirmation (which is my second love language and she KNEW that), no quality time spent. Make me fancy dinners? 🤣. Never. She did NOTHING. Absolutely nothing. 

Let's get back to transactional. That's the low sex drive person's FAVORITE word. Transactional.

This is really simple. If a woman wants to get involved with me in a romantic relationship, the expectation is sex. I don't need more friends. I have men to be my friends. So what happens? A low drive woman pulls a bait and switch on me to get my attention. BTW, sex is a part of touch. That's another low sex drive person "trick". Oh! It's touch! It's not sex! Please. Sex is a part of TOUCH! Ever notice the word "transactional" never comes up when it comes to the high drive partner speaking the love language of the low drive partner? It is ONLY brought up when sex is talked about. How funny is that? How come you aren't saying that my exwife was abusing me by accepting and taking all of the stuff I did for her love language? How come it isn't transactional in the opposite direction? 

How about we stop using the word transactional and just say that no one wants to be in a relationship where all they do is give and the other takes? Saying it is transactional is a misdirection used by low drive people to shame people that need sex in their lives.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

LATERILUS79 said:


> I'm not married. My exwife ran away because she is a coward and would prefer blowing up my family as opposed to looking at herself in the mirror and solving her issues.
> 
> Call it transactional if you want. Doesn't matter. I'll never be in another dead bedroom again for the remainder of my life. I'd rather have no sex than to be abused again by low sex drive partner who needed to control EVERYTHING.
> 
> I understand what you are talking about when it comes to "speaking" love and "hearing" love. My exwife and I spoke VERY CLEARLY on what is our love languages. She knew very well how I felt loved. I knew very well how she felt loved. So please, spare me the "Oh, she was just expressing love back to you in the way she speaks.".
> 
> Nope.
> 
> No acts of service. No gifts. No words of affirmation (which is my second love language and she KNEW that), no quality time spent. Make me fancy dinners? 🤣. Never. She did NOTHING. Absolutely nothing.
> 
> Let's get back to transactional. That's the low sex drive person's FAVORITE word. Transactional.
> 
> This is really simple. If a woman wants to get involved with me in a romantic relationship, the expectation is sex. I don't need more friends. I have men to be my friends. So what happens? A low drive woman pulls a bait and switch on me to get my attention. BTW, sex is a part of touch. That's another low sex drive person "trick". Oh! It's touch! It's not sex! Please. Sex is a part of TOUCH! Ever notice the word "transactional" never comes up when it comes to the high drive partner speaking the love language of the low drive partner? It is ONLY brought up when sex is talked about. How funny is that? How come you aren't saying that my exwife was abusing me by accepting and taking all of the stuff I did for her love language? How come it isn't transactional in the opposite direction?
> 
> How about we stop using the word transactional and just say that no one wants to be in a relationship where all they do is give and the other takes? Saying it is transactional is a misdirection used by low drive people to shame people that need sex in their lives.


Oh I agree on all of that too. Love languages are a nice concept, but they really apply mostly to reasonable people, not those with personality disorders and such. It sounds like you were with an extremely selfish person who probably didn't feel love for anything; just loved what people did for her. Yes, that's a form of abuse. My ex was a total taker too. We're both better off for being away from them!

This guy needs to figure out if his wife is actually LD, or he's become unattractive (physically or in his approach), or she's responsive desire and he needs to build on that, or if she's under stress, or it's hormonal or age-related, or if she really is just selfish and he needs to re-evaluate his willingness to remain in the relationship. Whining and complaining and putting the onus on the lower drive partner to change NEVER fixed a sexual incompatibility.

The reason I don't include sex as part of the touch love language is that I don't feel that the languages are limited to sexual relationships. I can have love languages I use with my kids, or with my parents, etc.


----------



## Rus47

Hopeful Cynic said:


> This guy needs to figure out if his wife is actually LD, or he's become unattractive (physically or in his approach), or she's responsive desire and he needs to build on that, or if she's under stress, or it's hormonal or age-related, or if she really is just selfish and he needs to re-evaluate his willingness to remain in the relationship.


So once OP ( who evidently has left this thread) goes through all of the gyrations trying to figure out where his wife went then what? Evidently SHE is the one who changed. Does she need to open her mouth and voice whatever her issues are?

Usually the HD people of either gender “whining” on here go through all of these gyrations with no results at all. 

Can you point to one example where the results of doing what you mentioned actually repaired the relationship?


----------



## LATERILUS79

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Oh I agree on all of that too. Love languages are a nice concept, but they really apply mostly to reasonable people, not those with personality disorders and such. It sounds like you were with an extremely selfish person who probably didn't feel love for anything; just loved what people did for her. Yes, that's a form of abuse. My ex was a total taker too. We're both better off for being away from them!
> 
> This guy needs to figure out if his wife is actually LD, or he's become unattractive (physically or in his approach), or she's responsive desire and he needs to build on that, or if she's under stress, or it's hormonal or age-related, or if she really is just selfish and he needs to re-evaluate his willingness to remain in the relationship. Whining and complaining and putting the onus on the lower drive partner to change NEVER fixed a sexual incompatibility.
> 
> The reason I don't include sex as part of the touch love language is that I don't feel that the languages are limited to sexual relationships. I can have love languages I use with my kids, or with my parents, etc.


Fair points. 

I however think that the vast majority of low drive partners are selfish. 

Reason being - they pull the bait and switch. They will trick the high drive partner into believing that they do indeed enjoy a lot of sex when in actuality, they don’t. They just like new relationship energy. 

I wish low drive people had a neon sign on their heads that read “I like sex for 6 months, then I need the excitement from a new relationship to enjoy sex again. If not, I’ll be taking sex away.”

Lol. Relationships would be a lot easier then. 

I would understand if medical reasons of severe stress caused a libido to drop - but those are usually not what we read about here. What we read is pure selfishness. That’s it. A low drive partner wants all the benefits of a romantic relationship without having to perform the act that actually makes it a romantic relationship. 

10-15 minutes of effort for the person that you are supposed to LOVE. That isn’t a transaction. That is showing the person that you love that you do indeed actually LOVE them. It is no different than all the things I used to do for my exwife. I did them because I loved her. In return, she was supposed to love me. Turns out, I was the only one that loved her. Not the other way around. 

I suspect most dead bedrooms are what I had. The high drive partner gives. The low drive partner takes. 

Low drive people don’t find each other. I personally believe this happens because they are both takers. In order for a low drive person to be in a relationship, they need a giver.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

You just can't expect two different individuals to have the exact same desires and timing and interests and needs. When you try to make it that way, it just becomes controlling. At some point as an adult you just have to realize that all people are different and can't conform to you. And then ideally, you control yourself instead of trying to control them like a mature person, because any psychologist will tell you you can't control what other people do or who they are.


----------



## In Absentia

Like my wife once said... it's all very well wanting sex often, but it's me the one being penetrated...


----------



## LATERILUS79

In Absentia said:


> Like my wife once said... it's all very well wanting sex often, but it's me the one being penetrated...


LoL. I can't say that I understand her point at all. I think my answer would be, "Yes. That is how biology works."


----------



## lifeistooshort

LATERILUS79 said:


> LoL. I can't say that I understand her point at all. I think my answer would be, "Yes. That is how biology works."


Some of us quite like it, as long as it involves parts designed to be penetrated.


----------



## In Absentia

LATERILUS79 said:


> LoL. I can't say that I understand her point at all. I think my answer would be, "Yes. That is how biology works."


I think what she meant is that not all needs are equal... maybe...


----------



## BigDaddyNY

DownByTheRiver said:


> You just can't expect two different individuals to have the exact same desires and timing and interests and needs. When you try to make it that way, it just becomes controlling. At some point as an adult you just have to realize that all people are different and can't conform to you. And then ideally, you control yourself instead of trying to control them like a mature person, because any psychologist will tell you you can't control what other people do or who they are.


You seem to be missing the whole point of being married and the idea of mutual caring, acts of love and that sex is what ultimately bonds a husband and wife. 

You are also ignoring the fact that the control can go both ways. The lower drive spouse is controlling their spouse by controlling all the sex in the marriage and they have no other option in a monogamous relationship. So the higher drive spouse is being controlled. They are being forced to accept a sex life they don't want, but that seems irrelevant to you, I suspect because it is primarily the man that is in that situation. I don't see how it can be anything other than you either placing lower value on the man's needs or lower value on the higher drive partner's sexual needs. 

I get the impression you don't have a clue about the give and take needed to make a marriage work over the course of decades.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

In Absentia said:


> Like my wife once said... it's all very well wanting sex often, but it's me the one being penetrated...


Which could be turned around as you're the one having to expend the effort to do the penetrating. Or any of multiple putting the shoe on the other foot.


----------



## In Absentia

BigDaddyNY said:


> I get the impression...


I get the impression on this board that some men are never happy about their sex frequency, regardless.


----------



## In Absentia

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Which could be turned around as you're the one having to expend the effort to do the penetrating. Or any of multiple putting the shoe on the other foot.


Yes, but it's me wanting the sex...


----------



## BigDaddyNY

In Absentia said:


> I get the impression on this board that some men are never happy about their sex frequency, regardless.


There does need to be some compromise in both directions. And you are right, some people are never happy. Of course, aren't we all guilty to some degree of wanting more of that which we love?


----------



## BigDaddyNY

Good article:






Give and Take: Mutual caring among partners


Too often we give a partner what we need, not what the spouse wants.




www.psychologytoday.com





Highlights:
_"We know to be mutually caring when it comes to making decisions
about parenting, or about where to live, or whether there's going to be
one or two careers or who does what around the house

"But noticeably missing from that mix are one's feelings about
sexuality," contends marital therapist Michele Weiner-Davis, author of
The Sex-Starved Marriage. It's as if sex is in a category by itself, when
it is a very fundamental part of marriage."

"Weiner-Davis contends that it's critical for there to be some sort
of mutuality in how couples handle sexual issues. But instead what
usually happens is that for assorted reasons one partner has lower desire
than another. And that person controls the terms of the sexual
relationship. *It's the lowest common denominator thing; that's what both
parties get reduced to.*"

*"Yet, fidelity is expected. "The implicit agreement that most*_
*couples have is something like this: 'I don't need to care about your
sexual needs, but I still expect you to be monogamous, and I expect you
not to complain about it.'" It's unfair and it's unworkable, says
Weiner-Davis, who is based in Woodstock, Illinois, outside of*
_*Chicago. "*_


----------



## DownByTheRiver

BigDaddyNY said:


> You seem to be missing the whole point of being married and the idea of mutual caring, acts of love and that sex is what ultimately bonds a husband and wife.
> 
> You are also ignoring the fact that the control can go both ways. The lower drive spouse is controlling their spouse by controlling all the sex in the marriage and they have no other option in a monogamous relationship. So the higher drive spouse is being controlled. They are being forced to accept a sex life they don't want, but that seems irrelevant to you, I suspect because it is primarily the man that is in that situation. I don't see how it can be anything other than you either placing lower value on the man's needs or lower value on the higher drive partner's sexual needs.
> 
> I get the impression you don't have a clue about the give and take needed to make a marriage work over the course of decades.


The point according to you. I don't know any women whose main reason for getting married was sex.

And I'm afraid the law is not on your side. It's illegal to coerce someone to have sex, even in marriage. It is anyone's right to say no. And then you can decide whether to stay or leave. You can decide whether you think you can do better. You can decide whether you want to just divorce and use prostitutes who will always pretend they want to have sex when you do.

The OP on this thread doesn't have a sexless marriage. He has a marriage that by most people's standards according to just about every survey out there has plenty of sex.

And what you're talking about isn't sexual needs but sexual desires and there is a difference.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

DownByTheRiver said:


> The point according to you. I don't know any women whose main reason for getting married was sex.
> 
> And I'm afraid the law is not on your side. It's illegal to coerce someone to have sex, even in marriage. It is anyone's right to say no. And then you can decide whether to stay or leave. You can decide whether you think you can do better. You can decide whether you want to just divorce and use prostitutes who will always pretend they want to have sex when you do.


Really, rape, that is where you are going? Since it is clear that your controlling label could easily be put on the person with lower drive you have to try something else? Please stop always jumping to the extreme. No one wants to coerce their spouse into sex. It is actually the exact opposite of what most people really want sexually from their spouse. 

You are just showing more and more that you don't really understand how a healthy marriage actually works. Why would it be right for a LD husband to have 100% of the say in how much sex his HD wife is allowed to have? Why does he have the right to deny her sex while at the same time denying her his blessing to get it from somewhere else? Does it sound like a healthy relationship where a key component of the relationship is totally under the control of one person and the other's opinion is blown off?


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

In Absentia said:


> Yes, but it's me wanting the sex...


I know....irony is a biiittcchh.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

BigDaddyNY said:


> Really, rape, that is where you are going? Since it is clear that your controlling label could easily be put on the person with lower drive you have to try something else? Please stop always jumping to the extreme. No one wants to coerce their spouse into sex. It is actually the exact opposite of what most people really want sexually from their spouse.
> 
> You are just showing more and more that you don't really understand how a healthy marriage actually works. Why would it be right for a LD husband to have 100% of the say in how much sex his HD wife is allowed to have? Why does he have the right to deny her sex while at the same time denying her his blessing to get it from somewhere else? Does it sound like a healthy relationship where a key component of the relationship is totally under the control of one person and the other's opinion is blown off?


I see now that your method of operation with women is to try to put them down in order to diminish their opinion. You've tried it with me twice in a row now. Good luck with that.


8


----------



## LATERILUS79

In Absentia said:


> Yes, but it's me wanting the sex...


I think it is more complicated than that. 

I think I lot of people don’t like being lied to. 

I think it should be obvious that sex will be happening in a marriage even though it appears that some people think it shouldn’t be a requirement. 

I think the people that want more sex (me
Included) thought that our partners would do so willingly since they promised that they loved us. I felt NO love from my exwife. She was a master at manipulation. A master at it. 

Of course there is always a compromise! I would never say that the low drive partner should have sex as much as the high drive. That is unreasonable. Trying to find a middle ground would be preferred - but it isn’t just frequency. It is quality too. When the low drive partner acts like having sex is just the worst thing ever (and all that is required of them is 15 minutes) it really goes to show how little the low drive partner cares for the high drive partner. It is abusive. 

On the flip side, the high drive partner is expected to spend hours on end doing all the things the ld partner wants all with a smile on their face. 

That to me is beyond unreasonable - but so many people think that is the way it should be. It’s absolutely mind blowing. 

Then of course you have the extreme views here saying that the hd partner is coercing the LD partner or is straight up raping them?! That’s crazy!!

That’s the garbage my exwife used to spew to me. She said I coerced her into sex. Lol. Wrong. 

I said I dont want to go back to a dead bedroom after living one for 16 years. I said there is no reason for us to be married if you stuff me back into that prison now that you got your “fill” of sex. I should always be ready to go to fulfill her need…. But my needs? No way. 

Because I said I didn’t want to be married if we go back to a dead bedroom, she said that was coercion. 

I call that being unstable and mentally unwell.


----------



## LATERILUS79

DownByTheRiver said:


> I see now that your method of operation with women is to try to put them down in order to diminish their opinion. You've tried it with me twice in a row now. Good luck with that.


The moment someone disagrees with you, you fall back to deflection and assume people are attacking you.


----------



## Affaircare

Hmmm... The OP hasn't posted on this thread since September 7th, ten pages ago. Are we talking to the OP here or just arguing with each other ????

If you want to argue with each other, that's your choice, but open another thread. This one is for @Haus


----------



## BigDaddyNY

DownByTheRiver said:


> I see now that your method of operation with women is to try to put them down in order to diminish their opinion. You've tried it with me twice in a row now. Good luck with that.


I don't have a gender bias, like some people appear to. The meaning and message of your words don't change with your gender. I would have had the same response if your words came from one of the men here. My main point is you can't have a healthy marriage if one spouse gets to unilaterally decide what happens with a key component of the marriage. It doesn't matter if it sex, or finances, or parenting, or whatever other major martial component you choose. It is all about mutual benefit and doing what strengthens the marriage. 

This goes back to the zero sum game @ccpowerslave was trying to explain. It has proven to not be the best way to conduct business and it certainly isn't a good dynamic in a marriage. The basic concept is that if someone wins the other must lose, which I believe you understood. Where there was disagreement is you see having sex with your spouse when it isn't the first thing on your mind as a loss for that spouse and a win for the other. That simply isn't true. Both spouses got to spend some intimate time together and strengthen their emotional bond in the process. In what world isn't that a win-win. If one spouse sees sex with their spouse as such a chore that they will chalk it up into the loss column then the marriage is doomed. I thank God I am in a marriage where we both feel the same about this topic and that we both enjoy sex and doing selfless acts for our spouses, just for the sake of pleasing them. I really do love my wife, lol. 



Affaircare said:


> Hmmm... The OP hasn't posted on this thread since September 7th, ten pages ago. Are we talking to the OP here or just arguing with each other ????
> 
> If you want to argue with each other, that's your choice, but open another thread. This one is for @Haus


I think there could be some value in him seeing all this. It is a hot button topic and he can see how strongly people feel about it, on either side of the issue. It demonstrates that with certain partners you just aren't going to see eye to eye on this and if your compatibility is too far out of alignment it isn't "fixable". At that point you decide to live with the hand you're dealt or move on from the relationship.


----------



## Affaircare

BigDaddyNY said:


> I think there could be some value in him seeing all this. It is a hot button topic and he can see how strongly people feel about it, on either side of the issue. It demonstrates that with certain partners you just aren't going to see eye to eye on this and if your compatibility is too far out of alignment it isn't "fixable". At that point you decide to live with the hand you're dealt or move on from the relationship.


@BigDaddyNY I don't disagree that it may be valuable for @Haus to see how strongly people feel, and yet this IS his thread and for the past several pages, no one has addressed him or asked if he'd like to see this side of the hot button topic--we've just squabbled. Again, I'm all for squabbling but create a different thread that's like a spin-off. The very defiinition of a threadjack is: "*To take over a discussion thread with a subject unrelated to the original posting*."

All-in-all, I'm just reminded folks to speak to @Haus ... and yet here I am talking to you!  Guilty myself! LOL


----------



## Helping married men

Haus said:


> My job is amazing.
> 
> She will have an amazing career in the medical field after she graduates in December.
> 
> I have hobbies I enjoy. Hunting, hiking, kayaking. Most of which I’ve done without her during these past two years while she’s been in school.
> 
> As is probably every guys experience. Sex was multiple times per day in the beginning 6 years ago. My sex drive has only decreased a few times during the past 6 years. Begging and chasing non-stop is a chore. Cuddling, flowers, cards for no reason, dinners out, date nights, etc… are all well and good, but begin to feel like I’m paying or manipulating her to get what I need.
> 
> I don’t plan to get a divorce, and my hobbies are generally with other guys if she does not go, so the risk of an affair are pretty much non-existent.
> 
> I do feel my anger and frustration growing. I can only be intimate with myself so much before I need that connection with a real human. I put on a poker face and pretend I’m happy and supportive.


Have you been doing all those things because you want to make her happy or because you want to get more sex in return?


----------



## uwe.blab

Haus said:


> “Used” to be multiple times per day. There’s a country song about being as good once as he ever was. It gets truer day by day, lol.


was she 'taken care' of back then or did she sometimes 'give up' after 30-45 minutes?


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Haus said:


> Dead fish sex is not intimacy.


Neither is expecting acrobatics. Intimacy mostly happens outside of the bedroom. It isn't synonymous with sex. It means caring about someone and being close to someone emotionally.

Calling her dead fish certainly doesn't sound very caring or emotional.


----------



## uwe.blab

BigDaddyNY said:


> Yes, it can be an all day process, but I never ask my wife for sex. Someone who doesn't have a very spontaneous desire, as in sex is on their mind regularly, isn't likely to ever say yes to a direct ask for sex. In spite of it not always being on her mind my wife loves and enjoys sex with me, but if in any given moment I say, "hey wanna go have sex?" I'm going to get told no a lot. All I ask is let me do some of the small things that start to get her turned on. Let me build some of that anticipation to an act you enjoy once you are into it. Don't push me away immediately when I start that initiation process, give me that opportunity to turn you on. I know what gets my wife in the mood. I know if I get her relaxed and we have lots of physical contact I can get her in the mood. She knows that too. She could just shut that down because at the start she isn't interested in sex, but let me do those things I know she likes and most of the time she will get in the mood and we will have sex. Other times it goes no further than those precursors to sex. I have no problem accepting that.
> 
> We've seen it here a lot where a wife will engage in wild sex with an affair partner while shutting out their husband. Or rarely having sex with their husband, but when they divorce and get into a new relationship suddenly it is sex everyday. When that happens hormonal changes aren't what drove that behavior. Yes, hormones have an impact on sex drive, but in a lot of these cases it is just a matter of no longer wanting sex with their husband. The romance is gone from the relationship for some reason. Since I see marriage as a romantic relationship, if the romance is gone and can't be recovered I think the marriage is dead or at least in peril.
> 
> I think marriage requires a lot of selflessness and a strong desire to understand and meet your spouses needs. Among many other things, this also includes sex and intimacy. I will say that a lot of husbands fall down hard on selflessness. They think they can go about their lives doing whatever they want, not meeting their wife's basic needs, then expect to get sex without hardly any effort put into initiation. I don't feel bad for them. However, if they are meeting all the needs of their wife, are a good partner in life, husband and father to the kids the wife should reciprocate. Which again, includes sex and intimacy since marriage is a sexual relationship. If your spouse loves and enjoys sex with you, which if they don't then there is the problem, they should pretty much always be willing to give you a chance to get them in the mood.


Yes, totally agree with this-- especially the first part. If I straight up out of the blue ask for sex....she MAY say yes but only because she is giving, and will probably have a good excuse to say no.

But if I just kiss her, or make a sexual comment showing my desire, it gives her a chance to consider it with no pressure and often she will respond positively. And at the same time knowing that I am not going to pressure...or beg...or pout... is going to make her way more open to it....


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