# Advice wanted



## JTL (Dec 14, 2009)

Hi all. Newbie here looking for all comments (positive & negative) and advice. I have been in a relationship with my SO for 18 years. We started in our late teens, eventually moved in together and got married and have 2 children, 2 years and under. We were each others first. We played with another couple on 4 occasions. Other than this, no other indiscretions or outside partners. Our marriage is on the verge of total failure due to lies i've told and worsening behaviour patterns. I was always totally honest with my wife. She was my 100% focus for the first 3-4 yrs of our relationship. As I got older, i wanted to get out and live it up. It caused problems but i brushed them off. I remained honest but over the next 14 years, i told a number of lies. I lied about recreational drug use. I lied about a strip poker game with friends and people i did not know. I lied and hid the fact i started smoking again. I made purchases without consulting her first. Also, during both of her pregnancies, i became a complete jerk. I believe this was due to my reluctance to have children, which i never properly addressed with her. Now, everything is out in the open and it has shattered her trust and belief in me. We are trying to make it work, but it has been very difficult. The problems have been created by me. Somewhere i stopped trying to be a good husband and friend and started treating her as less than an equal. I didn't tell her things because i didn't want the drama or have the energy to discuss her opinion. This is not the way i want to feel about the woman i love. I am not trying to fix this for the kids, I want her ( of course, the kids are paramount as well but not a reason to stay together) I have to rebuild our relationship and regain her trust. At the same time, i feel i need to change but am unsure how to REALLY accomplish this without lying to myself. I also do not want to simply pay lip service only to end up feeling resentful in 2 years trying to be someone i'm not. I love my wife and want to spend the rest of my life with her-happily. Communication has been better lately and i am trying to be more open. The one thing i'm struggling with is feeling like i can't ever be mad or have a bad day in front of her. She says we are starting over and i should act like it. I find it hard to forget 18 years, and change the way i act towards her. If anyone has been through anything similar, i'd like to hear comments (both perspectives welcome). Thanks.


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

Okay, I can help with this!

The technique for rebuilding trust is surprisingly simple. It would be EASY if you can commit yourself to doing it. It will take a huge leap of faith on your part - but that's one of the reasons it works.

You must absolutely tell her EVERYTHING. Keep nothing secret. Don't even 'fib' a little. "How's my hair?" - don't give the standard answer a guy gives when you honestly don't think it looks good. Let her onto your computer and phone. Don't delete any messages.

Be honest to the point of obsurdity. She will definitely notice - and begin to trust you. Answer ever single question she asks without hesitation, no matter how embarrassed you might be.

My wife and I are going through this and the honesty is like a nice hot shower after being dragged through the mud and having the crap beaten out of me.

Good luck!


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

My H has done similar things to me, and I have to tell you the one thing that really made me get a warm fuzzy inside is when he wrote me a letter, telling me exactly how he felt about me and himself, and what he wanted to do to make us better. He isn't good with words when we are talking, but the letter gave him the chance to read it over, think about it all and then give it to me. That helped me see that he KNOWS what he did was soooo wrong and that he wants to be a better person for me!


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## JTL (Dec 14, 2009)

Thank you for the replies. I have been doing everything that's been suggested. I started writing her letters about a month ago. She told me she appreciated them. Even though this is happening, i feel that it will not work. The last 2 days have been bad. She is again depressed and withdrawn. Nothing i do seems to make a difference. I have shattered her belief in me. She refers to our relationship as 18 years of lies. It hasn't been but i understand why she feels this way. I awoke to her last night crying and tried to talk to her. She told me she was convinced that i have cheated or had an affair. I have not and i became angry and raised my voice. She immediately shut me down and told me it was over. She has said this before, so i'm not sure if it's real or not. We have been going through this for 3 months now. I have been to a councellor and we had 2 sessions together. She does not seem interested in going back. I, however, will be going back regardless of what happens. Like most men, i'm terribly impatient. I have tried to be patient during this process but it has been difficult. If we can work this out, how much time should/will it take? At what point does one say "We tried and now it's time to move on"? I don't want this, but the thought of both of us living unhappily for the next year is scary. Besides each other, we have our kids to think about and they need happy parents. My wife is not the same mother when she is depressed. I am not the same father when we are going through turmoil. I was really hoping for the best here, but am now fearing the worst.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

Well, you are talking about 14 years of lies here, so 3 months probably isn't going to be enough for her to get through that. I think the difference here is does she WANT to work through it? When she asked about you having an affair, it doesn't seem that far fetched to me being that you seem to have told her numerous lies, I would expect that she would question your loyalty. I will not go as far as to say you can't get mad about that, but I will say that you shouldn't. She feels like she is married to a complete stranger right now. Like everything she knows and loves is a lie. The trick is to find that one special way to make her see that you love her, only her and want to fix this. You will have to find the key here. What is it she likes to do?? What can I do to show her?? Ask her!!


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## JTL (Dec 14, 2009)

Certainly, the question of an affair is fair. The problem i've had is that i've been dealing with this accusation since she was pregnant with our first child. Like i stated in my first post, i was a jerk and sex was almost non-existant. This is certainly out of character for me. It wasn't about her physically as much as it was about my feelings about how our lives were changing. I am NOT introspective so i didn't even understand this at the time. I've tried pretty much everything with her as well as asking. Sometimes it helps for a while but ANYTHING can set it all back. She watched a movie last night about a man who lied to his wife. BANG, problem is fresh and goes right back to square one. I am committed to her and am willing to do what it takes for however long. I guess i just want/need to see progress.


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## jessi (Feb 11, 2009)

try to show her signs of loyality and trust, little by little, try to think about situations that might leaving her doubting you, before they happen, before you go out, go to her, hold her, look right into her eyes and tell her she has nothing to worry about, reassure her that the new you is going to stand be side her as long as it takes for her to come back to you. Make sure there is no deadline or expectations of how long it will take for her to feel comfortable. Tell her how ever long it takes you will wait, tell her she is worth every minute of your time and effort. Tell her you still have a lot of life to create a happy life together......take it slowly......good luck...


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## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

JTL said:


> Certainly, the question of an affair is fair. The problem i've had is that i've been dealing with this accusation since she was pregnant with our first child. Like i stated in my first post, i was a jerk and sex was almost non-existant. This is certainly out of character for me. It wasn't about her physically as much as it was about my feelings about how our lives were changing. I am NOT introspective so i didn't even understand this at the time. I've tried pretty much everything with her as well as asking. Sometimes it helps for a while but ANYTHING can set it all back. She watched a movie last night about a man who lied to his wife. BANG, problem is fresh and goes right back to square one. I am committed to her and am willing to do what it takes for however long. I guess i just want/need to see progress.


This sounds very, very familiar. First off. Why are you rushing things? When you're impatient remember that aside from this marriage you are working on there is also a you. You don't have to work on your marriage every single minute of your time with her. Sometimes just back off, let things flow and relax. With or without her. Always paying attention to 'the marriage' gets you frustrated, specially when you want change and you want it now. That frustration is NOT good (this from personal experience). 

She's frightened beyond belief. That's obviously pointed out by the movie thing. I did the same, thought my man had an affair with a work colleague who was older. Saw this movie 'my super ex girlfriend' where the guy prefered his work-mate and wanted to leave his girl, felt like crap for two days imagining my husband thought the same about me. While this is irrational and stupid and i understand how you can get upset it triggers a huge emotional response in her and she can't ignore her feelings (that are probably especially powerful to the point of depression right now). From this point of view she's rather low on the self esteem and self-control side. These are issues she has to fix in herself that you can't really help her with. You can however discourage her by making her feel like she's a freak when she starts crying or gets scared. So try not to do that. For the most part, try to detach a bit and not take everything she sais so personal if you can. Sometimes she's just trying to blow off steam and calm her own self down. 

I've said this before. When you ruin things in a couple of years, you can't expect to fix them in two weeks. That's just reality. How if you gain weight in 5 years, loosing it in 2 days is rather stupid and unrealistic. This is why, you're either patient or you bail. This doesn't mean you can't slip and be angry once in a while, it's part of the process. As long as you know you're going forward, you can occasionally afford to take a step back. 

Moreover, there's nothing you can say to win her trust back. She trusted you, then she lost it, she has to be willing to give it to you again. You can tell her, prove it to her, you can take a figging lie detector test...she'll still be reluctant to trust you. So don't try to do it. Let her do it. You just be nice, relax, answer whatever she needs you to without expecting anything, focus on being in a decent mood (not faking it...actually being it), try keep your temper in control when she pisses you off and in the meantime ocassionally make her laugh, be affectionate to her once in a while, and try to do some things to show her that you love her. These are relatively normal things you would do in a relatively normal relationship that probably sound hard to do with all the tension around. But if you stop and look at the big picture, the more you push towards this state of calmness and normality, the faster and better things will fall into place and your marriage will return to what it was. :smthumbup:


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## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

Oh yeah, also, to an extent what the others are advising about always reassuring her is pretty good. 

But always keep in mind that sometimes she might be suspicious of why you keep reassuring her and are so nice (i'm saying this because i personally did this - specially if you generally were angrier and more distant with her). So in a way, don't over-do it with the reassurance either. Hope this makes sense.


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## JTL (Dec 14, 2009)

Thanks everyone. I will see how things go. Hopefully i didn't set us back too much last night. I guess i've seen every set back as total failure. I will learn to accept these as more of "the process". It is certainly hard to understand all of this when we've never been through it before. Also, my selfishness and total lack of empathy and emotion has put me behind the curve on understanding my wife's emotional needs. These are things i have been and am committed to working on. To some degree, i could see this coming but did nothing to stop it. I wish i was a little more proactive in the past vs reactive.


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## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

Hi hi, i know how that works. One good week ending in an arguement = all that good week counts from nothing and you start all over again. Wrong  

Told you, work on the marriage but also relax a bit, that tension you're both creating, you both can feel on an intuitive level. Try to re-instore a sense of calm and peace. Decide what your goals are, what direction you want to go and make up a plan to some extend (just as a general idea not as strict rules). Then slowly, one day at a time work on it. It'll work if you're both comitted to it.

Learning this and being able to do it will also make you two a team and able to pass most things in life together, so it's for the best really. You had to learn how to cope with this kinda stuff at one point in time.


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## JTL (Dec 14, 2009)

Just a little update. The holidays went so-so. She was disappointed that "nothing special" was given to her for xmas or new years's. I admit that the xmas thing wasn't great. I had looked for that 1 special thing, but was unsuccessful. I didn't even think of getting anything for new years. She said even a heartfelt card about restarting our life would have fit the bill. So she's been a little off because of it. This attitude worries me. I have been working pretty hard at being there, being more attentive, and really chipping in with home, kids etc. While i have certainly seen progress, i am worried that i will be forever held to some standard that i will not be able to maintain. I have continued seeing a therapist but she does not want to go. This tells me that everything in our relationship rests on my shoulders. I don't believe this is fair. From many discussions and looking back, i've concluded that her happiness has become my responsibility. I can't live a life like that. While i certainly love my wife and want to spend our lives together, i can't be held totally responsible for her happiness. I believe this is something everyone has to take ownership of. She has explained that i need to continue to court her, win her back, and make her my focus. I see some validity in this but nowhere is there a mention of what she is going to bring to the table. The marriage councellor seems to think the same way, telling me i may be setting myself up for failure. Is this somewhat of the phase we're in or a deeper issue? I want to keep going because i have seen progress and i love her but am worried about unreal expectations.


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## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

> Just a little update. The holidays went so-so. She was disappointed that "nothing special" was given to her for xmas or new years's. I admit that the xmas thing wasn't great. I had looked for that 1 special thing, but was unsuccessful. I didn't even think of getting anything for new years. She said even a heartfelt card about restarting our life would have fit the bill.


Well....would a heartfelt card about restarting your lives have been so hard to give? Something special means you thought of her and did it from the heart. Doesn't matter if it's a limmo or a tiny pebble with a bow around it and a smile. That's what you don't seem to understand. Practice little things.  When you leave the house and she's not around but will be later, leave her a post it with 'hey..went to this place, will be back soon, will miss ya and i love you'. This is worth (for most women) more than buying them an entire closet of clothes. Or at least for me anyway. 



> So she's been a little off because of it. This attitude worries me. I have been working pretty hard at being there, being more attentive, and really chipping in with home, kids etc. While i have certainly seen progress, i am worried that i will be forever held to some standard that i will not be able to maintain.


She's off because you said you'd change....tried to do something extreme and failed...and ended up doing nothing. So she saw you doing nothing. You don't have to bring the moon down for her...you just have to show her you care once in a while. Ex: you don't have to bring her a huge bouquet of roses...you just remember to get one single flower on your way home and give it to her telling her you thought of her that day. It's not the flower she wants...it's the thought and proof that you DID think of her. Get it? If you're *working* to do it..you're doing it wrong. Just cool off a bit and do small things from the heart. 

Progress is made one day at a time. Don't do something today, see how things are better tomorrow and then jump to expecting everything is ok. Build your way up slowly. Don't treat it as work or you'll get frustrated and want to give up. Little things matter more than big things. A compliment to her here and there, a bit of flirting for both your fun, a thoughtful yet small gesture everyday, will get you far. Do things you enjoy as well...again, it won't feel like you're working for it.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

Its not unreasonable to ask what she is going to do to try and make this work. My H had an affair, and even though the bulk of the responsibility lie on him, I can still tell you my role in it all. He spent a year pushing me away. Instead of insisting we fix this, I just shut down and disconnected. A year later, he had an A for two weeks. Slept with her 3 times. THAT is completely his fault, but I should have insisted we fix it before it was completely broken. 
Ask her what she can do to help you. Tell her you need to know that she appreciates the efforts you are making. Talk about maybe getting something for just the two of you to do together that you both can enjoy. Don't let her having a bad day set you back. I still have bad days, and a movie can completely put me in a bad place. The difference is I had made an effort to tell my H so he can comfort me and reassure me that this will never happen again. I need the constant reassurance for now, I am guesing she does too!


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## too_far_into_it (Jan 6, 2010)

My h sounds a lot like you. I posted my story in the thread "am I in the wrong here" .


My h is a liar. He lies just to lie. I know that about him and can tell in an instant when he is lying. 

I guess the only help I can give you is to tell you how I feel and what makes things worse in our relationship right now. I read about the Christmas and new years disappointment. When my h fails to think about me it reassures my beliefs that he really doesn't care about me and on the few occasions that he does do something nice are now null and void because it was a one time effort on his part just to make peace and my feelings don't matter to him. So yes if you want to keep your marriage you have to make her feel special in the way she wants to feel special. In a long term relationship you have to be consistent. If you do this for a year and then stop she will remember it when things get tough again. 

The one thing that caught my attention the most in your post was "we played with another couple on 4 occasions" I'm just curious who's idea this was. My h wanted me to do this too, so I did with one of his friends. He would have us be full swingers if he has his way. It is revolting to me and I'm not sure I'll ever forgive him for it. If it was your idea, I can say that some of her notions about the affair are swimming around her head due to these "occasions". Not to mention the other "occasions" you failed to include her in and then lied about. I'd be totally furious and my wrath would not be able to be extinguished. God do you know how she feels about this. It is the utter most betrayal. IMO you did cheat on her during the strip poker thing. It may get you in a much better light if you realize that and be totally humble and beg her forgiveness. Have you done that? I don't want to sound like a wench here, but this is how I would feel. Not saying she feels the same, but I guessing she might.

Were you just a complete jerk during her pg or have you been a complete jerk the entire marriage and it just got worse during the pg? The way your post reads you were a jerk the entire time. Sorry but that is how I read it. If you were she is probably rerunning the worst times over and over in her head and reminding herself that you will never truly change. Are you prepared to truly change? If it is just a temp thing forget it and hang it up now. My h has run this cycle of being a total a$$, then apologizing doing better only to repeat the a$$hat behavior over and over again. I have simply come to the conclusion that I cannot forgive him again and won't for that matter. It doesn't matter that he has gotten better. His complete ignorance of how I feel even when I tell him how I feel is maddening.

I wish some woman (and man for that matter) would come along and slap the piss out of him and tell him to wake up and get a grip, that you cannot continually be an a$$hat for years and expect your marriage to last. Consider yourself slapped.

on edit: I thought of one other thing. About the pg. I can't tell from the post if this is something she has brought to your attention or not. If it is I will say that this is a huge thing for her. If you'd like some insights on her pg and what she may be feeling and ways to make a mends I'd be happy to enlighten men out there. Just imaging a full grown peach smack dab in the middle of your gonads. Now imagine this peach growing arms and legs and kicking and punching you while tuning around in there 24/7 for about 6 straight months. Now your hormones are all cracked up too not to mention the pain your feeling and the pure frustration. Is it too much to ask for a back rub or a little compassion? Evidently it is because the person you are growing this amazing little creature for is a total jerk during the entire time. You've got lots of making up to do for that one and It's not too late. My youngest is almost a pre-teen and it would not be too late for a back rub if clueless ever got a clue.


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## JTL (Dec 14, 2009)

Thanks for the input. To answer some questions: The question of infidelity seems to have been dismissed as of late. She believes what i have told her about never straying. My other actions did have the same effect as cheating though, so we continue to work through those. Have i been a jerk the entire marriage? No, i don't believe so. I have certainly been a jerk at times, but not as a general rule. Lately things have been pretty good. Both of us are letting some of the small stuff slide. She has agreed, and we are both attending counselling together. I have been more patient with the process and she has been more responsive and a little less guarded. We are taking more time for each other and communicating more. We still have a very long way to go but it certainly is a great start. About the swing/swap thing: We had both discussed it many times, i initiated it. We both have enjoyed it. I NEVER pushed subsequent encounters on her. She and the other woman had the most input. It was and is a non issue concerning us.


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## JTL (Dec 14, 2009)

just a bump and update: Things are probably going to end. We were working through some things but it was certainly uphill. There were a few lingering doubts by the wife (very justified) and they were eating away at her. I finally came clean on Friday last week in a letter which settled the questions she had as well as informing her on all my thoughts and feelings about everything throughout our relationship. To say it went poorly would be an understatement. I think she appreciated the honesty, only too little too late. This has been after she begged me to tell her everything and i couldn't because i couldn't bring myself to hurt her more. Now we start the seperation phase. We will go back to counselling, hopefully it helps with the seperation. Thanks for all the replies and suggestions in the past. I'll probably end up starting a new thread on seperation soon.


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