# #1 Condition Present when Infidelity Occurs



## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Although never an excuse for why affairs occur, what was the number one condition present (that may have contributed) when your Spouse cheated? I suppose number one is always "intent to cheat", so maybe I should be asking for number two.

Some common conditions present that I have noted when reading this forum:

1 Being apart for some period of time
2 Toxic friends
3 Alcohol or other substance abuse
4 Sex addiction 
5 Escape from daily grind (spouse, kids, homelife, bills, etc)
6 Getting older (turning 30, 40, etc)
7 Co-workers
8 Kids grown and out of the house

For my situation, Toxic Friends was number one and that condition has been permanently removed from our marriage going forward.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

9) mental illness
10) childhood trauma
11) bad example of good relationships growing up
12) pure selfishness


These were the 4 present but if I had to pick one beside the pure selfishness I would say bad example of a good relationship growing up


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Just plain old being an @sshole


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

13) emotional disconnect/neglect

No personal experience here, but this does seem to be a common complaint.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Lack of commitment.
Lack of morals. 
Lack of respect.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Add one more:

Revenge - when one party believes (whether true or not) that the other has already had an A


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Yeswecan said:


> Lack of commitment.
> Lack of morals.
> Lack of respect.


Lack of thinking through the consequences.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Wolf1974 said:


> 9) mental illness
> 10) childhood trauma
> 11) bad example of good relationships growing up
> 12) pure selfishness
> ...


I think that #12 should be the entire top 10.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

13) Jerkwad d*uche-bag
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

- Loss of job/income by BS

- BS is a SAHD


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
from the other side, the reason I seriously considered cheating:

Wife would very rarely agree to sex with me, and when she did she was very selfish in bed, only doing what she wanted, and then expecting me to appreciate that she was willing to do anything at all.

btw - this is much much better now - things are very good.


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## Devastated an lost (Oct 29, 2014)

My H said, 
1. took me for granted. 
2. didn't realize what he had.
3. felt like life was to routine.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

Extreme selfishness


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

How about "In the fog of excitement over a new relationship".


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

My H told me he did it because it was available and he lacked the self control to say no. Pure selfishness.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Pure selfishness is the main culprit IMO.

Another condition of the M that seems to be almost universally present is crappy communication.

Selfish a**holes use that lack of communicating as an excuse to run out and be a total POS.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Dyokemm said:


> Pure selfishness is the main culprit IMO.
> 
> Another condition of the M that seems to be almost universally present is crappy communication.
> 
> Selfish a**holes use that lack of communicating as an excuse to run out and be a total POS.


What would be the communication, "I don't like you anymore so I want to go out and bang some chicks"


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Lack of empathy followed closely by a lack of self control.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

MAJDEATH said:


> What would be the communication, "I don't like you anymore so I want to go out and bang some chicks"


At least that would be an honest answer instead of hearing nothing or everything is fine.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

Really, Wolf's first reply basically says the same - he lists all the traits of the classic narcissist. The only one missing is an unrealistically inflated sense of entitlement.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

Nomorebeans said:


> Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
> 
> Really, Wolf's first reply basically says the same - he lists all the traits of the classic narcissist. The only one missing is an unrealistically inflated sense of entitlement.


My XWW was extremely selfish and had a wicked sense of entitlement.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

How about arrogance?

How many times have we read about a WS who believed that she/he was not the cheating kind and could be friends with a member of the opposite sex while breaking every marital boundary in the book? They then act surprised that they got into an affair saying "I've always hated cheaters so I don't know how I could have cheated on my spouse."


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

* Lack of a moral/religious compass, and willfully or evasively failing to remember any of the verbiage of the marital vows pledged to their spouse!

Not to worry ~ I would hope that they'll get their unfettered opportunity to personally explain it all to God one day!*


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)




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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

morituri said:


>


Really like that second paragraph.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)




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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> from the other side, the reason I seriously considered cheating:
> 
> Wife would very rarely agree to sex with me, and when she did she was very selfish in bed, only doing what she wanted, and then expecting me to appreciate that she was willing to do anything at all.
> ...


I think that lack of sex (or lack of enough sex) is a very serious problem in a marriage. And very often the low-drive person isn't willing to talk about it, which makes it even worse.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

Zanne said:


> I may get hate mail for saying this, but this list is all about conditions around the cheater. Although you did mention that you compiled the list from this forum which tends to be mostly betrayed spouses.
> 
> IMO, most of the time (not always) there is 50/50 blame for the downfall of a marriage. 100% blame for the infidelity will always be on the cheater.
> 
> I would add lack of respect to this list. As well as sexual incompatibility.


Not meaning to be hateful, here. Yes, there are often problems in the marriage before a cheater cheats. But there are problems in lots of marriages such that the parties go their separate ways without someone else being involved. The difference between choosing to leave honorably without cheating first or cheating and then leaving when you get caught is the capability to feel empathy. Or total lack thereof.

I used to think it was as simple as cheaters lacking moral character. And it's true - they do. But where does that come from? Again, I'm gonna go with Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

Now, if the OP had asked simply what is the #1 condition present in marriages headed for divorce, then I'd agree with the two you mentioned. Financial strain is statistically a big one, too.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

In my H case, being young and foolish, lack of committment, alcohol and self centred ness and not realising the terrible damage infidelity causes.
I think he has cheated since - no actual evidence (gut feelings) and if that is the case due to disconnect/arguments over not wanting the same things.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Zanne said:


> I mentioned lack of respect and sexual incompatibility because I think a person can reach a point of desperation (for example, in a sexless marriage) and they are more vulnerable to letting their guard down and crossing that line.


Yes but it takes a mindset that allows the pre-WS (can't think of a better term for a WS before the affair) to give her/himself permission to start down the slippery slope of breaking marital boundaries. The pre-WS doesn't have to be desperate to be more susceptible to have an affair, just simply breaking all marital boundaries will be enough to ignite an affair.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Zanne said:


> I believe it's more complicated than that. Cheating does not automatically make one unable to feel empathy. Clearly something is wrong in that situation, but there are many other reasons why a person may choose to start an affair.
> 
> Again, not every cheater is a narcissist. It's not that simple.
> 
> ...


Maybe not narcissist but they are the ones making a selfish choice. When I hear a WW speak about bad marriages that lead to affairs all I hear is blame shifting. Plenty of people go through rough patches and manage not to cheat. Having a bad marriage is one thing but it isn't the cause of infidelity. That's the choice the one person makes


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## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Zanne said:
> 
> 
> > I believe it's more complicated than that. Cheating does not automatically make one unable to feel empathy. Clearly something is wrong in that situation, but there are many other reasons why a person may choose to start an affair.
> ...


Yup. My marriage wasn't perfect but whose is? I somehow managed to not cross the marital boundaries despite the challenges of work, child rearing, a LD spouse, household projects, etc etc. why? Because I believe in the sanctity of marriage and I'm LOYAL.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"What would be the communication, "I don't like you anymore so I want to go out and bang some chicks"

No....just not communicating about the ordinary downs, rough patches, etc., that can lead to distance.

Most M's go through this and the majority of people never react by turning into a POS. (if you count the faithful couples and the loyal BS's, it is actually a fairly large majority of people who are not disgusting traitors)

But it seems, if you are unfortunate enough to be M to a selfish a** who lacks character and morals....they turn this period of time into an excuse to become a total scumbag.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

MAJDEATH said:


> Although never an excuse for why affairs occur, what was the number one condition present (that may have contributed) when your Spouse cheated? I suppose number one is always "intent to cheat", so maybe I should be asking for number two.
> 
> Some common conditions present that I have noted when reading this forum:
> 
> ...


Only one answer here and you did not list it: The willingness to betray.

Your list 1-8 are things to take up with your spouse, not to go find a lover with.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Zanne said:


> And this was the point I was trying to make. My post was not about whether one spouse makes selfish choices in a marriage. I was discounting what @Nomorebeans was saying about how all cheaters are Narcissists - and she has made this claim before. She's welcome to her opinion, but I don't think it is a balanced view. For example, does anyone here consider EI to be a Narcissist? Also, I think that broad claim can be harmful to those who are reconciling here because they may think it is hopeless if their spouse is labeled as such. IMHO.


Sorry I thought what was being discussed had more to deal directly with you. Am I not mistaken? Haven't you had a long standing affair while continuing to stay married to your husband for his financial support and see nothing wrong with what you are doing? I think that is very narcissistic. 

I don't think, from what I have read, that EI is a narcissistic personality but she also owned her affair so no not everyone who cheats has narcissistic personality disorder. But they are selfish in that decision they make.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

ScrambledEggs said:


> MAJDEATH said:
> 
> 
> > Although never an excuse for why affairs occur, what was the number one condition present (that may have contributed) when your Spouse cheated? I suppose number one is always "intent to cheat", so maybe I should be asking for number two.
> ...


* Your answer is definitely "spot on," but I think that it goes hand in hand with my earlier reply regarding one possessing an internal religious/moral compass not to ever entertain being a participant in any random act of cheating.

Sure, as a male whose hormones may rage from time to time, more especially when I see a beautiful, intelligent woman who might picque my interest, if I should either see a ring on her finger or come to have knowledge that she is married, then she is instantly "off-limits"; knowing full-well that advances to her might well be detrimental to my existing relationship and vows to my own spouse and family, but more importantly to her spouse and family. 

Largely keeping in mind the final admonition of the standard wedding vows which says, "What God has joined together, let no man put asunder!"

I personally cannot fully comprehend what "a player" has in mind when he sees an attractive woman or man, and then makes it their appointed objective to do whatever it takes to get their pants off and to start having seeds planted.

From my perspective, when I see a married woman out there, I just see her as being within the holy bonds of a marriage contract that I have the utmost respect for, knowing deep within my own heart that if I, in any way, was responsible for their straying from their appointed vows and into the act of betrayal, of all the innocent people that would come to be so very hurt by that act.

Despite the age old "id" defense mechanism used by so many unconscionable men, as well as women, that "a hard pelvic appendage hath no conscience!"*


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I think the only condition we can be sure of is that base human nature overcame social and ethical conditioning.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

Wolf1974 said:


> Sorry I thought what was being discussed had more to deal directly with you. Am I not mistaken? Haven't you had a long standing affair while continuing to stay married to your husband for his financial support and see nothing wrong with what you are doing? I think that is very narcissistic.
> 
> I don't think, from what I have read, that EI is a narcissistic personality but she also owned her affair so no not everyone who cheats has narcissistic personality disorder. But they are selfish in that decision they make.


Zanne is right - I have been too broad.

Those who choose to have an affair, and then never own their mistake or feel true remorse for it, are narcissists.

I don't know who EI is, but there are a few posters here who made the choice to cheat who seem to be sincerely trying to make amends - I agree that they are capable of empathy and are not completely shut down emotionally. Still, it was a selfish, entitled choice they made: They decided in that moment that no one else mattered but themselves and the AP. What made them do this? Not their miserable marriage or spouse. Their own abject selfishness in that moment. I bet EI and the others I speak of here would agree with me on that.

But serial cheaters, or those who, once caught, continue on with their affairs, blame shifting all the way, never feeling any true remorse for anyone or anything other than for the fact that they got caught and no longer look like the hero they want everyone to think they are? Narcissists.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

I agree that there are several TAM posters who have cheated in the past and are NOW empathetic to the needs of others.

However, at the time of the affair they did not possess that quality. I think it is developed from the hard work of R.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

In my case it was shutting my WW out from my feelings. I wasn't vulnerable in our marriage, those are my actions to own. My WW on the other hand chose infidelity, and that is hers to own. When a spouse (myself) shuts out the other spouse and isn't vulnerable is putting the marriage in a very bad spot. My communication was horrible, but this does not condone infidelity. It does however, at least in my case, put my marriage at risk. 

I can say my WW had a choice to divorce, but instead chose infidelity. That destroys me to this day, that I had a role in killing my marriage with my actions. My WW effectively killed the marriage by choosing infidelity. I own half the marital issues, my WW owns infidelity one hundred percent. It's a fine line in noticing both of our actions and what they did to each of us. My WW will tell you her choice was the worst possible choice she could have made. My actions of shutting out my spouse are also horrible. 

In reconciliation you both must own your faults, correct them, then place those corrections into actions. I am being more vulnerable, allowing my WW the opportunity to earn trust. To date she is on the correct path, she knows this is her only chance, but it's still difficult even when the WS does everything right. Infidelity has many faces, many challenges, and when added to the many challenges of marriage it can be overwhelming. I'm not a perfect husband or father or person, I have many challenges in my life, but I strive for perfection, to be my best each and every day. I didn't put forth that effort for some years, but I will never allow myself to fall back into that pitfall.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

99.99% of cheaters on this forum have two conditions present. One is inherent and 100% on the cheater. The other is typically shared by both parties 50/50. 

1) Selfishness. This is not something that comes and goes. You are either inherently a selfish person or you're not. That doesn't mean necessarily that you will cheat. You could be selfish but in love with your spouse and want them all to yourself (ie needy, clingy, types). 

2) Checked out. You at one time may have loved your spouse but due to issues in the marriage you have fallen out of love. Again, this doesn't mean necessarily that you will cheat. Plenty of selfless people do the right thing and divorce amicably. Other's put up with the bad marriage but don't cheat because they know it's morally wrong.

Now find yourself with a selfish person who has checked out of a marriage? OR worse never was really checked in to begin with? You're pretty much screwed, no pun intended. That's the basic script for infidelity played out here again and again with slight variations and twists.

It's really predictable and all the more sad to read.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

My ex-wife had a lack of character combined with knowing she would be judged for it, so she had a highly-developed deception strategy. She would act like the most wholesome person you could know, as a cover for behaving like a wh0re.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"From my perspective, when I see a married woman out there, I just see her as being within the holy bonds of a marriage contract that I have the utmost respect for, knowing deep within my own heart that if I, in any way, was responsible for their straying from their appointed vows and into the act of betrayal, of all the innocent people that would come to be so very hurt by that act."

This is a great perspective for moral and loyal religious people.

I am no longer religious, so the whole 'holy' bonds and sacredness thing is irrelevant....I view M as a binding contract and vow, however.

My perspective, as a non-religious person, is this.

I think of the M woman's H.....this guy has never done a d*mn thing wrong to me....as a member of a civilized society under a 'social contract' theory, I OWE him the duty of not injuring or insulting him without cause, and I expect the same in return.

This is why I disagree with people who say the POS AP 'owes' you nothing....that's bs....the POS owed it to me to not injure me or destroy my life.

It's why I think retaliation against the turd is necessary.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

michzz said:


> My ex-wife had a lack of character combined with knowing she would be judged for it, so she had a highly-developed deception strategy. She would act like the most wholesome person you could know, as a cover for behaving like a wh0re.


But a wh0re is at least ethical and honest about who she is and what she offers. No secrecy, no lies, no deception.

Frankly I think it's insulting to wh0res everywhere to call cheating wives wh0res when they should be called a term befitting their betrayal, *frauds*.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

My wife had extremely toxic friends, one in particular who's train wreck of a marriage was ending. She did not want her best friend to work on and repair her marriage because then she would look bad around her.

Now granted, my wife was operating under the assumption that I had left her, that I was cheating, and that I didn't care. And she was selfish about what she wanted.

Would she have cheated without the toxic friends, probably YES. But would there have been 4 affair partners, no way. The toxic friend was closely involved with all 4, encouraging my W and saying things like "I heard her H say that it was OK for her to cheat". She also would do things like drive my W to a bar/dance club, then leave with someone else and let her find her own drunk way home.

The worst was the stories I gained knowledge of later where, if a guy was hesitant to proceed once alone, the toxic friend would either "warm him up" or outright offer a threesome in order to keep the affairs going. Toxic friend was already divorced and wanted to drag my W down with her.

The toxic friend and my W went into business together and she also helped with lies and cover stories when I was around. My W flew out to the east coast for a week to spend time wirh her boyfriend, all expenses paid for by him. They created the most elaborate story I have ever heard, including documents, itineraries, websites, etc that all looked legit. I even called to verify this "business trip" and the lady I spoke with at length (not the toxic friend) was spot on. You could write a book about this level of deception.

Toxic friends will never be a part of our lives again. While not an excuse, it definitely contributed to the As.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

MAJDEATH said:


> My wife had extremely toxic friends, one in particular who's train wreck of a marriage was ending. She did not want her best friend to work on and repair her marriage because then she would look bad around her.
> 
> Now granted, my wife was operating under the assumption that I had left her, that I was cheating, and that I didn't care. And she was selfish about what she wanted.
> 
> ...


Toxic friends dont help marriages but they certainly didn't force your spouse to cheat. Your spouses low self esteem allowed the toxic friend to enable the behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

MAJDEATH said:


> My wife had extremely toxic friends, one in particular who's train wreck of a marriage was ending...
> 
> Now granted, my wife was operating under the assumption that I had left her, that I was cheating, and that I didn't care. And she was selfish about what she wanted.
> 
> Toxic friends will never be a part of our lives again. While not an excuse, it definitely contributed to the As.


In my wife's case the Toxic Friends Syndrome was definitely at work. Some divorced, some married, all cheaters.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

She wanted to.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

If someone cheats and is willing to admit that it was their selfish choice then I can entertain their arguments about contributing factors. Things like being naive or prideful, having low self esteem, being unhappy, etc, can cause some to make mistakes. And sure the partner can be part of the equation. I know when I let my ex get away with being a b!tch to me that was probably a factor. But I don't buy the toxic friends factor. It's the same argument moms and dads have when trying to blame shift what their kids are doing instead of putting the blame where it belongs. People find the types of friends they're looking for and separate from the ones their not looking for and that's on them rather than the friends.


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## Papillon (Jun 26, 2013)

"Problems in the marriage" was the explanation I got. "I did it because you didn't chase me enough or give me constant attention or dress sexily enough or wear lingerie and have sex with me several times every day. But you are a great mom to the kids." That last part really made me feel better LOL.

Which is bullshyt. I knew we had problems in our marraige too -
His sex addiction, narcissism, selfishness, and continuous mood swings. But I didn't cheat on him. 

Because it is:
1) A WEDDING VOW
2) a CHOICE to break that vow.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

RWB said:


> In my wife's case the Toxic Friends Syndrome was definitely at work. Some divorced, some married, all cheaters.


This used to be exclusive male territory but today there is a cultural shift that even females have adopted this mindset.


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## VictoriaJ (Jun 26, 2015)

MAJDEATH said:


> My wife had extremely toxic friends, one in particular who's train wreck of a marriage was ending. She did not want her best friend to work on and repair her marriage because then she would look bad around her.
> 
> Now granted, my wife was operating under the assumption that I had left her, that I was cheating, and that I didn't care. And she was selfish about what she wanted.
> 
> ...


Hi I'm new to the forum. Just trying to get some perspective on some things going on in my own relationship. Your response intrigued me. Are you still married?


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

morituri said:


> This used to be exclusive male territory but today there is a cultural shift that even females have adopted this mindset.


They would meet once a week to watch Sex in the City and get charged up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

VictoriaJ said:


> Hi I'm new to the forum. Just trying to get some perspective on some things going on in my own relationship. Your response intrigued me. Are you still married?


Happily married, going on 20 yrs:grin2:. Reconciliation can work, if both partners can work at it, communicate, and understand the benefits of counseling.


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## Hurtin_Still (Oct 3, 2011)

.......profound selfishness. 

.......and ....til' the day I die .....that's the way I'll describe her actions.


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## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

MAJDEATH said:


> Although never an excuse for why affairs occur, what was the number one condition present (that may have contributed) when your Spouse cheated? I suppose number one is always "intent to cheat", so maybe I should be asking for number two.
> 
> Some common conditions present that I have noted when reading this forum:
> 
> ...


Surely, Co-workers should be higher up the list? Do not most affairs happen at work?


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## Papillon (Jun 26, 2013)

Yes, my H's AP - coworker. Because they understood each other so well, and they were both so lonely that it "just happened".


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## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

Papillon said:


> Yes, my H's AP - coworker. Because they understood each other so well, and they were both so lonely that it "just happened".


I feel the pain, Papillon. To me, work is the most dangerous place. As so many people have experienced people's "innocent" relationships develop...


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

* If one's place of employment is deemed to be the No. 1 locale for married relationships to go awry, then certainly hooking up with old flames and relationships of the past through reconnection on social media outlets like FB and the such, has to run a very close second. And then the good ol' watering hole of a bar or a dance hall has to figure in to the mix somewhere! Even at a gym or a workout center. Or maybe even within the sanctimonious confines of a house of worship: preeminently just about anywhere where potentially horny people might choose to meet up!

Regardless of that, the one common denominator in all of this is just one selfish partner's inclination and ability to try as best they can to covertly and willingly cheat on their spouse, with absolutely little to no regard to any accountability or consciability on their part!

It would just naturally seem that their secondary interest to actually engaging in the newfound "high" of their adulterous new relationship, is only eclipsed by their ardent efforts to try to keep it covered up for as long as they possibly can!*


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

My STBX met his affair partner AT A FUNERAL.

If that doesn't demonstrate a readiness and willingness to cheat, I don't know what does. And this is a pilot who's often out of the country for days with flight attendants (by the way, cheating as you might guess is rampant in that particular industry).


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Nomorebeans said:


> My STBX met his affair partner AT A FUNERAL.


* Much like the sport of "limbo," just how low can you go?*


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Nomorebeans said:


> My STBX met his affair partner AT A FUNERAL.
> 
> If that doesn't demonstrate a readiness and willingness to cheat, I don't know what does. And this is a pilot who's often out of the country for days with flight attendants (by the way, cheating as you might guess is rampant in that particular industry).


All the aviators that I have know, almost without exception, were all having affairs. Male and female, fixed wing and rotary wing, made no difference. Something about being on the edge of death everyday in the air. And being gone a lot.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

arbitrator said:


> * If one's place of employment is deemed to be the No. 1 locale for married relationships to go awry, then certainly hooking up with old flames and relationships of the past through reconnection on social media outlets like FB and the such, has to run a very close second.
> *


Agreed... 

My FWW, years textbook affairs, all started EA quickly to PA

Work Place: Check, with Boss.
EMail - FB: Check, Old Flames


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

MAJDEATH said:


> All the aviators that I have know, almost without exception, were all having affairs. Male and female, fixed wing and rotary wing, made no difference. Something about being on the edge of death everyday in the air. And being gone a lot.


Sure enough. When I first told my family members about his affair, without exception, they each said "Let me guess - flight attendant?"

Actually, they weren't completely wrong. He's had an EA (at least) going with a FA for years. It was at her father's funeral that he met the OW, a high school friend of hers. This FA cheated on her husband when her two kids were something like 8 and 10 with a married airline captain who also had kids. This happened about 12-15 years ago. Blew up both marriages. She's a real model citizen. He texts and calls her daily, more often than he does the OW. Apparently it takes two women to replace me.

What a bunch of disgusting excuses for human beings they are.

Anyway, yes - the workplace is a dangerous place, and the airline industry is second for incestuous activity only to, I imagine, the TV and movie industries.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

badmemory said:


> - BS is a SAHD


A SAHD just sounds like a jerk off that wants a woman to keep him up.


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

Uh how about because she was a beach?


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## autopilot (Mar 16, 2012)

I cheated on my first spouse. The reasons that I did were because I was exhausted from trying to "fix" me (her words) who was the cause of all our marital problems. Never once in our 20 years of marriage did she make any effort to work on her problems (which were many).

I finally decided to end the marriage and separated after our final failed marriage counseling where it was evident to both me and the marriage counselor that she was unwilling to make any changes in herself which were toxic to our marriage. So, I left and found someone else (in my mind cheating because I had checked out of the marriage at that point even though I hadn't filed for divorce yet).

The things that ultimately caused me to leave and violate our marriage vows were the following:

1. Opportunity (I was vulnerable and open to anyone else).
2. Kids becoming the center of her universe (I hated that they called the shots).
3. Because of #2, our parenting styles were not at all cohesive.
4. Things were always my fault...was sick of hearing that.
5. I just quit trying.

Does this sound selfish from someone who has been faithful? Probably. But, we are both happier as a result of what happened. She just wasn't willing to be the one to file for divorce (and said so many, many times even though that's what she said she wanted).

I did put the cart before the horse by finding another after separating but before filing for divorce. That was wrong because it was deceptive.

The irony of the whole affair is that the woman who I found is now my wife and we've been together for 11+ years and married for 8 years. All our 5 kids love us both as if we were both biological parents and for that I'm extremely grateful (for a time it looked as if that wouldn't be the case).


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

Let me guess, autopilot: Airline pilot, military pilot before that? American Airlines, perhaps?

(If I'm wrong and just projecting again, my apologies.)

Regardless of your profession, it's clear you have no remorse whatsoever for having cheated on your first spouse, and have even managed to partially blame your children for your indiscretion. Nice.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Nomorebeans said:


> Anyway, yes - the workplace is a dangerous place, and the airline industry is second for incestuous activity only to, I imagine, the TV and movie industries.


Actually, teachers are right up there in the top 3 by profession by most accounts.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

RWB said:


> Actually, teachers are right up there in the top 3 by profession by most accounts.


Didn't think about that. But now that I do - I remember a couple sets of teachers suddenly married to each other (and they were not young) going through elementary school. Then there were the professors and their students in college. We even had a few high school teachers and their students...

What is it like to be morally flexible? I wouldn't know.


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## autopilot (Mar 16, 2012)

Nomorebeans said:


> Let me guess, autopilot: Airline pilot, military pilot before that? American Airlines, perhaps?
> 
> (If I'm wrong and just projecting again, my apologies.)
> 
> Regardless of your profession, it's clear you have no remorse whatsoever for having cheated on your first spouse, and have even managed to partially blame your children for your indiscretion. Nice.


Actually, none of the above. And I stayed as long as I did because of the children...don't cast stones unless you've been in my shoes.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

I'm a teacher...and yes it does happen.

But most of the threads I have read over the years that were a workplace A were in business/sales, ESPECIALLY those that included a lot of travel.

Unfortunately, there also seem to be many A's that involve POS AP's that are either personal friends of the BS or are couples that are friends of the WS/BS.

Those are the sh*ttiest IMO....bad enough your WS ends up being a backstabbing POS, but then to have a so-called 'friend' be the scumbag that screws over the BS is just icing on the cake.

IMO, POS AP's always deserve as many consequences as a BS can rain down on their head....but 'friends' who take on this role deserve a WHOLE CAN of whoop-a** opened up on them.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Dyokemm said:


> I'm a teacher...and yes it does happen.
> 
> But most of the threads I have read over the years that were a workplace A were in business/sales, ESPECIALLY those that included a lot of travel.
> 
> ...


* This makes a lot of sense except that my RSXW had to reestablish connections with the men of her past via FB ( i.e. ex-high school BF some 35 years removed who was a practicing South Texas doctor and a married father of five; and then there was her deceased first husband's best friend from work who had retired, divorced his wife, grew his hair down his back, fattened up, and became a "Willie Nelson" wannabe musician in Austin and the Texas Hill Country.

The one common denominator in both of these louts was that she hadn't seen or heard from them in years until she reconnected with them on FB. Both knew that she was married to me, but it certainly didn't detract either of them from meeting up with her as she so conveniently made frequent overnight "business road trips" to their ends of the world in order to hook up. 
There was even some FB dialogue that more than suggested that one of the meetings between my RSXW And her doctor buddy took place in the major college town nearby in a swanky old historic hotel!

There was also the time that she had rented out "all for herself," a swanky ornate $275/night Victorian era hotel suite in the large city only 25 miles from home all while she was "attending a two-day equine seminar" at the local university there! After the onset of our separation, it was discovered that her section of our joint cell phone bill during that particular timeframe revealed a contact whose cell phone number turned out to be a "burner phone" and was presumably one of these two or perhaps even a third "stage-door Johnny" of unknown origin! I was later "invited up" only to bring her the bottles of liquor that she had left back at home, her "Bailey's" and a brand new bottle of Dewars Scotch, which I never knew of her to ever drink, but at the time gave extremely little thought to!

So these "old friends" from her past were later found out in time to be nothing more than the POS for who they truly were!*


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

autopilot said:


> Actually, none of the above. And I stayed as long as I did because of the children...don't cast stones unless you've been in my shoes.


Read your reasons 1 through 5 again. I don't see any remorse there, or any acceptance of responsibility for problems in the marriage. Maybe you had a terrible wife and the problems were largely her causing. But you're 100% responsible for making the choice to cheat. Saying you stayed for the children (and implying that you cheated while staying) is a cop-out. You weren't doing them any favors if you were betraying their mother while you stayed.

My apologies for mis-guessing your profession.


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

#1 Condition: disrespect


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Jung_admirer said:


> #1 Condition: disrespect


* Then accordingly, No. 2 would have to be: A jaded sense of entitlement to cheat on one's spouse!*


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## autopilot (Mar 16, 2012)

Nomorebeans said:


> Read your reasons 1 through 5 again. I don't see any remorse there, or any acceptance of responsibility for problems in the marriage. Maybe you had a terrible wife and the problems were largely her causing. But you're 100% responsible for making the choice to cheat. Saying you stayed for the children (and implying that you cheated while staying) is a cop-out. You weren't doing them any favors if you were betraying their mother while you stayed.
> 
> My apologies for mis-guessing your profession.


I agree that today I have no remorse for what I did. I have a great life, wonderful wife and fulfilling marriage. Back up 11+ years ago and I would say that I had a whole lot of remorse. Nearly had an emotional breakdown because of it.

You are misinterpreting what I said (or I didn't spell it out well enough). My ex nearly ruined our two kids' lives because of how she parented. It wasn't the kids' fault that they were allowed to be the center of her universe. But, the emotional damage done to them because of it was incredible. I've spent the past several years reprogramming them into responsible young adults outside of our toxic marriage (with her blessing because she finally recognized the harm she had done to them).

Unfortunately, this is not the blog to discuss my story. I was only throwing out what caused me to ultimately cheat. Not trying to place blame or express guilt.

I am a pilot, but just not professionally. So, I don't fit the stereo-type that you disussed. Fly myself in my business and own our plane used for such.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

Thank you for providing more insight, AP.

You say you nearly had an emotional breakdown because of your remorse about the affair. Did you ever seek counseling to work through what you had done? I ask because I don't see anything in what you've said so far that shows you have owned that the choice you made to cheat was 100% on you. Even my STBXH has finally done that.

Also, you married your Affair Partner, correct? How old were your kids when you divorced their Mom, and do they know about her role in the story?


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## autopilot (Mar 16, 2012)

Nomorebeans said:


> Thank you for providing more insight, AP.
> 
> You say you nearly had an emotional breakdown because of your remorse about the affair. Did you ever seek counseling to work through what you had done? I ask because I don't see anything in what you've said so far that shows you have owned that the choice you made to cheat was 100% on you. Even my STBXH has finally done that.
> 
> Also, you married your Affair Partner, correct? How old were your kids when you divorced their Mom, and do they know about her role in the story?


I did go to counseling after I broke down. That's what pulled me through it. I was devastated in what I had done and beat myself up unmercifully for it for nearly a year. I apologized over and over again to my ex for it even though our marriage done.

I did say in my first post on this that it was wrong for me to cheat. Nobody's fault but my own. I just posted what I felt drove me there in it's simplest terms. I wasn't trying to justify or place blame anywhere except to respond to the post lists of reasons.

I've been completely transparent with what happened. The kids all know about it and don't hold any ill feelings towards me, my wife (in fact they love her to death), or their mother.

My two children were pre-teen when all of it went down (11 and 10). And I did reconnect with my AP after I went through my black hole of remorse and regret because I really did find a gem in her. Took me quite a while to convince her that we could make it as a couple. We married 8 years ago and it has been the best marriage I could have ever imagined. Not many end this way from what I understand and I would never suggest that anyone go the route that I have gone.

I hate it that you've been on the other side of this. The shock and betrayal is something that cannot be described unless you've been through it (and, yes, I was also on that side of it long before with my ex when she stepped out on me). So, there was a part of me that justified what I did to her, too, I believe. It still didn't make it right but that's just what happened.

Maybe in time I'll post on here my story of how it all went down and the paths that were taken to get me to where I am today. It's an incredibly complicated story (and somewhat unbelievable even when I think about parts of it).

I originally logged onto this site seeking advice about court issues with my then teen-age kids. Those were the last remnants of the "center of the universe" mentality that they had with my ex. Judge completely shot them down and they have since apologized to me for their behavior over that incident. Immediately thereafter is when my ex basically realized the harm done to them, her and me over those issues and came to us requesting that me and my wife advise her on how best to restore them to the types of kids that we all wanted them to be. She also asked if we would take them and work with them using the techniques we advised. It worked and everyone is much better off as a result.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

* Autopilot: I was kind of wondering exactly what kind of a relationship do you have today with your XW and her family?*


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

It's good you got that counseling, AP, and that you recognized you needed it.

My STBXH refused my suggestions of MC over the years - he was emotionally cut off from me for much of our marriage, yet maintained what I now realize and always suspected were EAs with at least three women (two coworkers and another one in his profession who he also went to high school with) for years. There were issues in myself - baggage from childhood, mostly - I also wanted to work out so I could be a better partner to him - I thought we could work together on these in MC, but he never wanted to do that, so I ended up seeing a counselor on my own here and there. I ended up doing a lot of things on my own in the marriage, come to think of it. When he first told me he wanted to separate last October, he was already in his PA with the OW, which he neglected to disclose. Put all the blame for the marriage being over on me, refused MC again.

Fast forward to today, he moved out two months ago and filed for divorce last week. By all accounts, his black hole of remorse and regret lasted about a month, and now things are already back "on" with this woman. Longtime friends who know her have reported to me that she's no gem, and that they think he's making a terrible mistake. So, he's going to go right from a 25-year marriage to me directly to her - he already has, really - without any significant amount of time to be alone and work on his own issues (which he doesn't believe he has) and certainly with no intention of any IC ever. I've stopped caring about what this means for him personally - he's more than earned that - but I worry about what it means for our son.

Sorry to have lashed out at you earlier. Some of what you originally said struck a nerve in terms of the blame-shifting sound of it.

There usually are problems in a marriage before one spouse decides to cheat. I know OP wanted to know what we think those most often are. If I'm honest, in my marriage, it was the lack of an emotional connection. Really, we probably never should have been married to each other. We each spent 25 years feeling abandoned at various times, and we never talked about that. If I'm ever in a serious relationship again, there will be full disclosure of everything. Anything less will be a deal breaker.


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## autopilot (Mar 16, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> * Autopilot: I was kind of wondering exactly what kind of a relationship do you have today with your XW and her family?*


Well, it's actually pretty good. Her family I rarely see but when I do, they are always very nice to me (and I hope they feel the same from me, too, because I always respected them). We're not best friends or anything but we do live in the same town (about 5 minutes apart).

You are not going to believe it when I say this, but it's true (and I'm shaking my head as I type it). She was a teacher of my youngest step-son this year and she was his favorite teacher and she was very good to him. We were a little leary about that at the start of the year but it all turned out very well.

One of my wife's closest friends is the ex-wife of my ex-wife's current husband (how crazy is that?) That's what happens when you live in a small town together.

So, we do run into each other from time to time. She doesn't contact me on a regular basis but does if she needs help with advice for the kids. I'm much better at looking at situations from an objective perspective than she is. After all these years, she has finally recognized that she stays too emotionally involved in the kids and needs me to help guide her to "stay the course" of being consistent in her actions with them.

I've even played marriage counselor with her and her current spouse when I saw the tell-tale signs of trouble that began derailing our marriage. She listened to my objective analysis and cried about their difficulties but worked to make the changes with him that she couldn't with me.

I did say that my story is incredibly complex and complicated...:smile2:


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## autopilot (Mar 16, 2012)

Nomorebeans said:


> Fast forward to today, he moved out two months ago and filed for divorce last week. By all accounts, his black hole of remorse and regret lasted about a month, and now things are already back "on" with this woman. Longtime friends who know her have reported to me that she's no gem, and that they think he's making a terrible mistake. So, he's going to go right from a 25-year marriage to me directly to her - he already has, really - without any significant amount of time to be alone and work on his own issues (which he doesn't believe he has) and certainly with no intention of any IC ever. I've stopped caring about what this means for him personally - he's more than earned that - but I worry about what it means for our son.
> 
> Sorry to have lashed out at you earlier. Some of what you originally said struck a nerve in terms of the blame-shifting sound of it.
> 
> There usually are problems in a marriage before one spouse decides to cheat. I know OP wanted to know what we think those most often are. If I'm honest, in my marriage, it was the lack of an emotional connection. Really, we probably never should have been married to each other. We each spent 25 years feeling abandoned at various times, and we never talked about that. If I'm ever in a serious relationship again, there will be full disclosure of everything. Anything less will be a deal breaker.


I wasn't offended by what you said or questioned once I realized that I did sound a little callous because I wasn't trying to give too much information about myself.

He will crash and burn by doing what you are saying with the OW. He has to have time to heal (even if he doesn't see that he needs it). But, you cannot go down that road with him. Hopefully, your son will be able to handle it with your help. That will be the hardest part.

More info on me...I even filed for divorce from my current wife after 3 1/2 months of marriage because I still hadn't given myself enough time to heal from my own actions in what ultimately destroyed my first marriage. More MC and IC and yet my wife stuck by my side through that incredibly dark period of time. Both our families came to the rescue to try shaking some sense into me (it ultimately worked). But the first couple of years of our marriage were pretty rough...no, VERY rough.

Stay strong and know that things will get better. You are on the right track to know that communication and transparency are the ingredients to a healthy and happy relationship.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

autopilot said:


> He will crash and burn by doing what you are saying with the OW. He has to have time to heal (even if he doesn't see that he needs it). But, you cannot go down that road with him. Hopefully, your son will be able to handle it with your help. That will be the hardest part.
> 
> More info on me...I even filed for divorce from my current wife after 3 1/2 months of marriage because I still hadn't given myself enough time to heal from my own actions in what ultimately destroyed my first marriage. More MC and IC and yet my wife stuck by my side through that incredibly dark period of time. Both our families came to the rescue to try shaking some sense into me (it ultimately worked). But the first couple of years of our marriage were pretty rough...no, VERY rough.
> 
> Stay strong and know that things will get better. You are on the right track to know that communication and transparency are the ingredients to a healthy and happy relationship.


I think you're 100% right about the crashing and burning. His "relationship" with the OW has not been even the least little bit real. It's all a fantasy. It's been at her house in another state or his here twice since they met. They've spent a total of less than two weeks actually together. Even if they text and talk every day, they are not living together day in, day out, paying bills, taking care of a house, parenting a teenage boy, maintaining careers, taking care of one another when they're sick. They have done no work whatsoever. When they suddenly have to, I predict it isn't going to go well. Then there's the little matter of his profession taking him out of the country more than half the time. Always. Everything she does will be done around HIS schedule. Everything. I'm sure she's not even remotely prepared for that, and for his absence four days out of every week. He will find that not everyone handles all that nearly as well as I did. In fact, perhaps not anyone handles all that nearly as well as I did. By the time he figures all this out, I will be long gone and not looking back.

I think he will soon be looking at his third divorce. He was married before me when he was quite young, after a long-distance relationship in which he only spent every other weekend with the girl for six months before proposing to her. That ended after 18 months. The man does not learn. I stayed with him as long as I did, I think, because I'm a bit of a masochist and a martyr (things I'm working on in counseling because I definitely don't want to play that role again). He won't find that again in women around our age, and he's not interested, amazingly, in younger women.

Yes, as cliche as it sounds, communication really is the key. You simply cannot let resentment build up because you're afraid to share your feelings with your partner. If you can't share everything and be 100% transparent with him or her, you're with the wrong person.

I may never find the right person, but I swear I'd rather be alone for the rest of my life than go through another divorce.


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