# Sexual stalemate



## bigsky (Mar 13, 2010)

Hi there

I'm 43 years old co-habiting with a woman for the last 8 years. We have 2 kids - 7 & 4yo.

I've ended up at this forum in desperation. I've been completely emotionally blindsided by developments in our relationship to the extent that I just can't see a way forward right now.

Eight years in and it's dawned on me just how unsatisfied I am in my relationship and how difficult it is to see a positive future for us. This has been quite a revelation and very anxiety-provoking for me.

It's difficult to condense 8 years of relationship dynamics into one post here and so I'll cut to the chase of what has dawned on me.

The reality is that I am living in a sexless relationship and I've somehow just kept thinking that it will change. There was always the glimmer of hope that this would improve.

But 8 years in, and it pains me deeply to acknowledge this, there's a pretty clear pattern of extremely dissatisfying and infrequent sexual connection.

She fell pregnant soon after we started a relationship and after the birth of our first child, we didn't have sex for around a year. After the birth of our second child, no sex for 2 years.

Admittedly, we chose to parent in an 'attachment' style - baby in bed with us, which drove me to another room for large periods of time. In hindsight I can see the error in this, at least in that it compromised our sexual connection.

So for at least 3 of the 8 years, there was no sex at all. Nothing. And in the other years, it has been very intermittent.

I've read rather arbitrary 'definitions' of what constitues a sexless marriage and see the figure of ten times a year mentioned. Well on that measure, we'd be pretty close to being technically sexless for most if not all our time together.

By my partner's own admission, she never enjoyed sex through her 20's. There was one boyfriend of hers that changed all that and she claims that from the point on, she has enjoyed sex.

But in my experience with her, she doesn't orgasm easily and when she does, it's a very 'quiet' experience for her. One orgasm always spells the end of sex for us, and I've repeatedly tried to clue her in to multiple orgasms, the g-spot etc in a non-threatening way, but she's just not that interested it seems in exploring her sexuality.

She's extremely physically attractive and has always had men interested in her. She's not inhibited and when we have had sex have explored a range of options - oral, anal etc

However I'm always the one reading about female orgasm, buying toys for us, trying to find couple friendly porn etc hoping it might take us to a new level. But alas, no.

Now of course I understand that I can't just look at the sexual issue in isolation - that if she feels something is missing in our relationship then she won't be as inclined to let go in sex or to find me attractive.

Indeed, I acknowledge that my nice guy tendencies over the years may well have caused her to lose attraction in me.

I notice that at some point I gave up initiating sex as I knew she wasn't really into it, and got sick of being turned down.

And I suppose this is where I have go to - I've formed a view that she no longer truly desires me. That maybe I just don't do it for her sexually, and that maybe another man could.

However she also seems of low libido. She never masturbates, never uses the toys on her own that I've purchased over the years.

She went through a period late last year where she started exercising manically, stopped eating, had her teeth done, shaved her ***** etc 

She admitted to me at that time that she was rediscovering intense feelings of sexuality. But none of that came my way, apart from a couple of episodes of sex around that time.

I know some of you will think this is highly indicative of her having an affair but I'm 100% certain that was/is not the case. I almost wish I would catch her cheating - strange I know, but I have repeatedly 'fantasised' about finding proof that she was having sex with someone else. Things would probably at least make more sense to me that way.

Since then, things have settled down again into a no sex pattern. We've had one instance of sex this year and even that wasn't penetrative sex.

As I've thought more and more about this, the more disturbed and desperate I've felt. I literally find myself in tears if I think too much about it. I find her very sexually attractive. I'm in good physical shape myself, eager to please her sexually, curious to learn about what works for her etc.

But I feel that I'm not getting any younger and I'm basically letting life pass me by. My libido is high, especially after starting weight training last year. I find myself masturbating daily. I've stopped looking at porn.

I find myself obsessing about my sexual situation. I don't want to have an affair with someone or look outside the marriage without coming to a prior agreement with her. This is an important issue for me. But I can admit that I've been seriously thinking about paying for sex but have decided not to follow through with this as too risky re std's etc.

But my self-esteem is becoming very damaged by this. To try and talk to her about the issue never goes anywhere. She always seems to have a reason why she isn't available to me, or feels pressured by me even bringing up the topic.

We have agreed to go to counselling to examine issues in our relationship. However I despair that that won't actually get us to a place where I want to be - in a relationship with frequent, fulfilling sex. The reality is I don't really have an experience of that with this women ever.

I don't want to live like roommates for the sake of the kids but the thought of seperating feels incredibly drastic. I feel totally stuck.

I tried to initate sex today but she pushed me away. I'm not cajoling or pressuring her at all. But the reality is I find myself thinking about sex constantly, with her when I am around her. And walking down the street is a painful experience - the sight of young, beautiful woman saddens me immensely as a reminder of what is lacking.

I've been reading Glover's "No More Mr Nice Guy" and he suggests a 3 month sex moratorium in relationships where the sex is not working. I'm thinking about suggesting this to her but am undecided if this is a good way to go.

I know that I perhaps need to just wait until we finalise our counselling appointments and see where they take us. But also wanted the opportunity to 'vent' here a little, something about just writing this all out helps a little.

Thanks for listening


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## cdow (Nov 26, 2008)

You managed to summarize my life for the last 7 years. On top of this, I realized that my frustration was ruining my relationship with my kids. I feel for you and everyone else who has posted problems in this section. I understand and feel the pain myself. Daily. 

In the meantime, my purpose in life is my relationship with my children, because I know this won't go on forever and I need them in my life and they need me in theirs.

Yes, its painful, but I have lots of friends and outside activities and hobbies, and that helps.


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## madimoff (Feb 17, 2010)

cdow said:


> You managed to summarize my life for the last 7 years. On top of this, I realized that my frustration was ruining my relationship with my kids. I feel for you and everyone else who has posted problems in this section. I understand and feel the pain myself. Daily.
> 
> In the meantime, my purpose in life is my relationship with my children, because I know this won't go on forever and I need them in my life and they need me in theirs.
> 
> Yes, its painful, but I have lots of friends and outside activities and hobbies, and that helps.


As the woman in a situation not as long-term as you both describe but nonetheless increasingly sexless, I'll try to explain my take on how it's come about and how relatively easy it MIGHT be to resolve. For me it's all about desire for me as a person being as important as desire for me sexually. If I feel I'm not liked at any point, this sticks in my memory bank like superglue. I have a (long time past) history of being a 'bit on the side' so it's hugely important to be wanted 100%. That's one element. The other is that having not had frequent sex for quite some time (there've been a few, but not many) I'm in the mindset of needing to be 'woo'd' before we can do that. I feel if we don't hold hands, occasionally snuggle on the sofa, have a hug while out, etc., then when it comes to sex it's all a bit basic. 
Ok to some extent airing this is just another way of inviting comment, but I do wonder if I'm not as peculiar in this as he makes me feel. If I were to believe him, every woman in a long-term relationship should be gagging to leap into having sex at every available opportunity virtually regardless of the circumstances. I think it's much more mental (in the real sense!!) than that for women. 
Is there the slightest chance that you need to be taking things more slowly & carefully - please don't laugh, given the time scale you're describing - but physically more slowly? Being physically affectionate without expecting it to develop?


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## bigsky (Mar 13, 2010)

Hey there cdow. The love I have for my kids is beyond description. The thought of hurting them in any way would break my heart. Their wellbeing is a huge priority for me in all of this.

Thanks madimoff for your valuable insights too. I've somehow got it into my head that the reason for her apparent dissatisfaction is all sexual at it's core and that I need to be more dominant to bring her back as it were. So I'll readily admit that a lot of my interactions with her lately have been me expressing my physical, lustful desire for her. Somehow I keep thinking that I need to be a little more alpha and try to 'take her'.

Just this morning she came up to me and actually asked me if I loved her. She had no clothes on and I cupped her buttocks and said that yes I did - she replied by saying that "I know you love my butt, but do you love me for who I am, not just my body?" So this lines up very closely with what you are saying - thanks for that perspective.

I think the lack of sex for me has impacted my self-esteem when it comes to sex - I think I am somehow not adequate as her lover and as I mentioned I've become rather obsessed with the sexual angle on my relationship. So I readily admit I am tending to gloss over the 'wooing' side right now.


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## 63Vino (Dec 23, 2009)

Dont mean to seem rude at all. IN madimoff's comment, i heard lots of good stuff. What's important to pick up on is that she told us straight up what drives her.
Does your wife do that? Does she tell you?
Im guessing no, because you're here..

If she not telling you or you're not close enough to her to know her (and when i say know her i mean KNOW her), then of course you're not going to know how to get back.
So to me its *communication and openess *that are the issue not lack of sex... Lack of sex is simply symptom.

We all have egos... even women. Sometimes (in some cases righfully so) we feel like the "other" should know or simply understand what they need. This doesnt always work right?

I would focus on her well being. Get to the point where you guys can sit down and really just let the thoughts flow, openly without reactions, blame, labeling etc and I think you'll find if you get "there" things might improve or you will learn what may need to be done...

I totally get the hurt you feel cause this happened to me in life also. Partly was caused by my behavior and partly due to her low drive. But part that i had control over for sure was "fixable".

Dont focus directly on sex (kinda heard that in madimoff's post too), focus on making sure you're making her happy in the way that works for her.. 

talk to her... and if you cant get there directly together.. go to counseling. Focus on communicating openly.

all the best.


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## bigsky (Mar 13, 2010)

> So to me its communication and openess that are the issue not lack of sex... Lack of sex is simply symptom.


Yes - that makes total sense. It's just that it seems so much resentment has built up on both sides that open communication is difficult.

It's a strange time right now - I've been certainly showing her love and attempting to be close, and to a large degree she's reciprocating. If I cross over into what she perceives as a sexual advance, then she quickly makes it clear that she's not interested and will make a comment about counselling which I'm in the process of organising for us. The inference is that she's withholding sex pending us making it to counselling together.

We're vacillating between being close and distant - within the space of a day we might hug closely and feel connected, she might tell me she loves me and vice versa. The next minute we'll be in conflict over something petty. Then at night we'll be close in bed - with me feeling genuinely loving, caressing her and feeling that it is being welcomed and enjoyed. But as long as it doesn't cross into sexual behaviour.

A couple of weeks ago I went through a period of 'distancing' myself - not following the usual script in our behaviour, going out on my own a little, not being as forthcoming about my activities and whereabouts and not checking in with her as often. Going my own way a little, curious to see how she would react if I pulled back.

And her response was to get pretty suspicious and paranoid, to the extent of driving around town checking that I said I was where I said I was etc. I don't know what to make of that, but it was strangely and perversely satisfying realising that this had some sort of impact on her.

It just seems such a stalemate - she obviously has good reasons for losing attraction in me, or not wanting to put energy into the sexual side of things. I feel that because the sexual side has always been rather unfulfilling that I've sort of given up on one level. She perceives this of course, and so pulls back further, and so the cycle continues.

I suppose this is why we are going to counselling although to be honest I'm not sure what to expect from the process, nor am I entirely hopeful about the outcome.

In some way, having observed her interactions with other people in her life, I feel that I will always come up short in her estimation. The reality for me is that I don't want to spend my life trying to seek her approval, or jump through hoops so that she feels OK about wanting to have sex with me. That just seems like a waste of time to spend my life that way.

We both work equal times, yet I'm the one who gets the kids off to school each morning (breakfast, lunches made, drop-off) and I pretty much cook and wash up each night. Somehow this is not acknowledged and if I bring it up, she complains that all I do is whinge and feel hardly done by. Yet it if I go for a surf or do something for myself, she finds a way to bring this up as some sort of negative and that there's stuff to be done around the yard etc.

Anyway, I'm a little uncertain on how best to approach the counselling sessions. I know she feels she has a lot to talk about there. I just can't quite get beyond the fact that we have a virtually sexless relationship and that's all I want to talk about.

I should add that she is actually doing her own therapy, which I suppose is a positive, except for the fact that her therapist's name always crops up when we argue, as lending weight for her side of things. "Susan says..."

She's obsessed with 'setting boundaries' to the extent that I just see her as being *****y to anyone with whom she disagrees. 

I keep thinking there's more to life than learning to set boundaries, especially when it comes to a sexual relationship. But then again her therapist is an older lesbian woman, so I really question what she has to say about the realities of a heterosexual relationship.


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## Jdack (Dec 3, 2009)

Bigsky,

First, I hope your concelling sessions help you, at least you are both willing to work at this. I had similar withholding sex issues and gradual lack of interest from my wife for several years before doing something about it. I had a serious talk with my wife after one coucelling session and discussions on this forum which helped me get back on track, hope this process helps you too. I'm not sure if you spent quality time together before kids or not and if this has vanished over time, but I found after having kids, we simply did not make the time to be together, other than usual dinners out for anniversary/birthdays. I always used to initiate that and I would often ask my wife if she would like to do something this weekend and she would not really initate or suggest anything, so nothing would happen. Few months ago, I told her that I really wanted to get back to where we used to be in term of affection for each other, sex and told her that she was going to see some major changes and that I was going to take charge of us going out more often and just doing it ( I arrange the baby sitter and make reservations for dinner, night at the horse track - she likes this, etc.) and also told her that I really wanted to improve our sex life and that I was going to initiate 3-4 a week. I also said that I woudl like to have O sex more often. 

I did realize that I was not paying attention to her like I once did, I bought some lengerie for her, few toys to try out, booked hotel suites few times ( 2 room suites ) so we could put the kids down and enjoy ourselves, that sort of thing. Within a month or so, it just became easier to initate again ( was hard when getting rejected before as you know) and I think she realized I was making efforts to spend time with her again and treat her special again. I think with long term relationsships and kids, etc, it is easy to start taking each other for granted and it takes constant work to keep the spark alive. It was easy to make the kids a priority and spend time with them, while slowly spending less time with my wife and that is not good.

It sounds like sex has been an issue from a very early stage and immediately after first child? One year without sex, then two years after second child?? Is there some unresolved issues here - did she not want to become pregnant and blaming you for this? A year without sex after first child seems like a long time unless she was frightened of being pregnant again? Based on the previous pattern, if you have a third child, you will be 3 years without sex! Are you practicing safe sex so she does not become pregnant if this is an issue or has she wanted more children? This is an unreasonable time to wait for sex unless it was health issue, etc.

I hope you can make some progress. Good luck


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## bigsky (Mar 13, 2010)

Thanks Jdack for the reply - sounds a very similar situation.

She fell pregnant 3 months after we moved in together and so there wasn't much time on our own prior to pregnancy.

I see the extent to which we've let the kids get in the way of our relationship so to speak. We live hundreds of kilometers from our nearest family so don't have the usual 'supply' of grandparents etc on hand to help out with looking after the kids.

I think your suggestion of making more 'dates' for just the two of us is crucial. We go out once a week but it's always with the kids for a family dinner. Maybe time to leave them at home so the two of us can just go out.


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## Jdack (Dec 3, 2009)

Bigsky,

We had same problems with leaving kids with anyone too, my mother is 85 and wouldn't think of dropping 3 kids all under 5 years old with her and her mother just is not into watching kids, so we were really in a pinch for child care for a few years, but now we have 3 sitters we can rely on and I just set it up for every few weeks on Friday night or Saturday night and we just do it. It has been soooo much better since we have done this, and sex after the night out just comes much more nauturally for her when she has been wined/dinned so to speak. We have good sex other nights too, but seems nights we go out sets the pase much earlier and she is really ready by the tiime we get home.

I supported my family with my full time job and part time business while she stayed home -going on 5 years now, and thought this should be enough and that she should be happy I was doing this, but as you have experienced with the chores/responsibilities you do that you have indicated, those sort of things don't help you to connect/spend quality time with your spouse.

Good luck,


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