# Setting boundaries, then breaking them



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

Hi all,

first post so please be gentle 

Been married 17yrs and have 2 kids.

Over time, bringing a family up has put strain on our marriage. Wife and I both work full time in stressful jobs.

We did not spend much time together. About 4 months ago I aked to meet my wife for lunch but she turned me down and said that she wanted to spent lunch with work colleagues. I was a bit upset because I always cancelled work lunches to meet her. I told her how I felt and she laughed at me and did not believe me. She told me that she had many male friends at work and liked having banter with them and a bit of fun.

These felt like red flags to me. I then stated to read up on psychology of marriage on the net and brought a few books. 

We started to read the books together and agreed to set boundaries:
1. Being open and honest
2. No one to ones with opposite sex in restaurants.
3. Me helping more around the house
4. More face to face time together

Things seemed to be going well until I noticed that she would always lock her computer when we worked from home. I aksed her to show me her emails as we had agreed to be open. She said no as I would see some mails to mail colleagues that I would interpret the wrong way. This of course set alarm bells wringing. 

I feel really bad as we had agreed on being open and honest, yet the first time I asked for openess, she denied it. She has been hiding emails from me and then lieing to me about them.

What's the best way to proceed as I feel that I cannot trust her. She has probably deleted the emails now.


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

You need to start investigating on the sly. VAR in her car etc. Weightlifter can help you with all the details of sleuthing.

Yep, a lot of red flags are waving.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

PM a mod and have this moved to the coping with infidelity section. Either Deejo or Amplexor would be fine.

Search "weightlifter standard evidence thread". Weightlifter is one of a few gurus who can help you sniff things out. You could also PM him as he will go well above and beyond to help someone in your situation.

Sorry you are here, brother.

ETA: I PM'd weightlifter for you.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Total redflag of an affair going on. Does she leave her phone lying around or is it glued to her side. Check cell phone records to see who and how much she is talking/texting to.

Since its a work thing go to brickhouse .com or amazon and get a pen var, they work great and put it in the bottom of her purse.

This is probably going to get bad, be prepared. How long since she turned you down for lunch.

See if you can turn on find my phone on her phone to see where she's going.

Has your sex life changed in the last few years, more or less?

Act like everything is fine while you investigate.

See if you can guess the password on her ccomputer and email.


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

thanks all!

Chaparral, what's a pev var? I'm from the UK and never heard of that.

I have mspy on her phone and not seen anything. But she may just use work comms.

We have had meals together etc, it's the hiding emails that got me.

Sex life was poor before we read marriage guides, then it improved.


----------



## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

VAR - *V*oice* A*ctivated *R*ecorder.

Was this one of the books you read? 

Dr. Shirley Glass - NOT "Just Friends"

If not do so. 

Best


----------



## frankman (Sep 23, 2014)

Wieghtlifter helped me bigtime. I did the VAR in car thing. I cant believe an internet stranger would do what he did. Lets just say my divorce is final mid February.


----------



## Vanille (Dec 13, 2014)

I bet she is deleting her emails now to cover her tracks, so there is probably no proof to find now via computer. Red flags all over the place. She is at the very least flirting and/or having an emotional affair. This needs to continue to be addressed. Her behavior is all wrong. She's doing it because she thinks she can get away with it. Stand your ground with your rules and make it a big deal that she has broken it. Tell her you think she is having an affair.


----------



## frankman (Sep 23, 2014)

Wieghtlifter is on my thread. His standard post is on his signature.

Just do what he says. Just be prepared for life to suck for a while. And he is right. DO NOT keep asking her about it until you know what is going on.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Good advice so far. I wouldn't even put up with what she doing now. I would show her the door.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

You have every right to protect your self from being betrayed and to protect your marriage. Her actions are toxic to the marriage and it needs to be confronted. In order to do this you need to know what you are confronting her on.

So get your spy gear together and gather your the evidence and have an effective confrontation with real facts.... and not what she is telling you.

Put it this way, what ever she is telling you, times it by ten.....in short your old lady is minimizing her behavior at work.

It appears that your old lady acts one way when she is around you and completely different when she is not, and that's not how one affair proof a marriage.

*If* she was behaving like you are always next to her, even when you are not, then there would be nothing to hide and you going out to lunch with her and her coworker/s would not even be a problem......make sense?


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Yep red flags of affair for sure. Sorry this is how 2015 will be for you


----------



## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Vanille said:


> I bet she is deleting her emails now to cover her tracks, so there is probably no proof to find now via computer. Red flags all over the place. She is at the very least flirting and/or having an emotional affair. This needs to continue to be addressed. Her behavior is all wrong. She's doing it because she thinks she can get away with it. Stand your ground with your rules and make it a big deal that she has broken it. Tell her you think she is having an affair.


Holy crap, this is terrible advice! Don't do this!

If you tell her you think she's cheating she'll do one of two things. She'll stop cold until she thinks your suspicion has died down then go back to cheating a few weeks to months after she cut it off. Or she'll continue cheating but be watching you like a hawk and being much more careful to avoid being caught. Either way you're shooting yourself in the foot to do a weak confront with no evidence as suggested.

ETA: Link to weightlifters standard evidence thread is in my signature.


----------



## Vanille (Dec 13, 2014)

Nucking Futs said:


> Holy crap, this is terrible advice! Don't do this!
> 
> If you tell her you think she's cheating she'll do one of two things. She'll stop cold until she thinks your suspicion has died down then go back to cheating a few weeks to months after she cut it off. Or she'll continue cheating but be watching you like a hawk and being much more careful to avoid being caught. Either way you're shooting yourself in the foot to do a weak confront with no evidence as suggested.
> 
> ETA: Link to weightlifters standard evidence thread is in my signature.


If he addresses it now he can stop things from continuing and try to work things out. How is that horrible? If she thinks she can get away with it she will. I think communication is better than driving yourself crazy for weeks trying to find shreds of proof.


----------



## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Vanille said:


> If he addresses it now he can stop things from continuing and try to work things out. How is that horrible? If she thinks she can get away with it she will. I think communication is better than driving yourself crazy for weeks trying to find shreds of proof.


Have you ever been in the limbo of thinking your mate is cheating but being unable to find resolution? Have you ever asked your cheating mate if he was cheating and been lied to? It's not a position you want to stay in, but that is exactly what your advice will lead to. Limbo. And not the nice part of limbo on the heaven side, no this is a bad neighborhood in limbo, one where you look out your back window directly into hell.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Sorry, I meant pen var. They work extremely well especially with work related suspicions where you have no way of monitoring her there.

GOOD LUCK and crossed fingers.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Does your wife do girls nights out, travel for work, go shopping without bringing anything home?

The GPS is good for telling you where she is going for lunch and verifying her whereabouts.

Does she have a smart phone?

Generally, cutting back on sex is usually indicative of an emotional and physical affair, no change is probably good. Increasing sex may indicate a physical affair just for sex. Having read the book and increasing sex sounds like good news but its also used sometimes to make it look like nothings going on.


----------



## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Vanille said:


> Tell her you think she is having an affair.


I wouldn't advise this yet - she'll just take it "underground" so to speak. Don't let on that you suspect anything at the moment...collate as much info as you can get before confronting her with absolute proof.


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

thanks all for the support!

Will get back with some of the questions asked, when the coast is clear


----------



## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Top link in mybsignature. All you need.


----------



## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Her emails would be interpreted wrong by her definition as she would be caught red handed.

Play dumb for now. Read Weightlifters thread. Go 007. No more confronts until you have proof positive. Save the evidence.

If it's all about nothing, no confront necessary, but surveillance for a while would be good.


----------



## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

knightRider said:


> Hi all,
> 
> first post so please be gentle
> 
> ...


Everyone is suggesting ways to catch your wife in cheating. Do you really want to spend your life like that, sifting through her emails, checking her texts and tracking her gps? If you don't trust her, you don't trust her. Maybe you should just break it off. I think it's better to be single than to be paranoid and tracking your spouse to make sure he or she has not been having an affair. Life isn't a tv show. I don't think living like that is healthy for anyone involved.


----------



## Majestic Starman (Nov 24, 2013)

Perhaps the bigger question (if you don't trust her) is why you don't trust her. Is it just because she won't show you her emails? Has she given any other reason to be suspicious? It seems to me you've redefined the boundary - it was being completely open and honest, and you've expanded that to checking up on her. Why was that?

I agree that it's fishy she won't share her email with you, but as Pooh Bear just insinuated, there seems to be a deeper trust issue at play.


----------



## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

Majestic Starman said:


> Perhaps the bigger question (if you don't trust her) is why you don't trust her. Is it just because she won't show you her emails? Has she given any other reason to be suspicious? It seems to me you've redefined the boundary - it was being completely open and honest, and you've expanded that to checking up on her. Why was that?
> 
> I agree that it's fishy she won't share her email with you, but as Pooh Bear just insinuated, there seems to be a deeper trust issue at play.


I agree. And work emails are different than personal email. My husband works for a computer company and a lot of companies are very secretive about what they want shared because they are creating new product. Luckily I am not that well versed in computer engineering but what if I worked for a competing company? Yeah, you could think, "What if she is having an affair with someone at work and hides it in the work emails?" Something is bound to come out if she is having an affair. Some solid evidence. Then you just break it off. Have you spoken with your wife about why she doesn't want to share work emails?


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> Does your wife do girls nights out, travel for work, go shopping without bringing anything home?
> 
> The GPS is good for telling you where she is going for lunch and verifying her whereabouts.
> 
> ...


She has been on a few business trips to far off places. She gets really excited to get away.

She does have an android phone. I installed MSpy on it. Good app but MSpy removed the ability to record surroundings due to legal issues.


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

Majestic Starman said:


> Perhaps the bigger question (if you don't trust her) is why you don't trust her. Is it just because she won't show you her emails? Has she given any other reason to be suspicious? It seems to me you've redefined the boundary - it was being completely open and honest, and you've expanded that to checking up on her. Why was that?
> 
> I agree that it's fishy she won't share her email with you, but as Pooh Bear just insinuated, there seems to be a deeper trust issue at play.


I never said I don't trust her. We were following the advice from books like "His Needs, Her Needs" and internet articles by phsycologists:

- be totally open with emails etc
- set boundaries to protect your marriage 
- no dinners with opposite sex 
etc

The jist of these articles is that many affairs that happen in stable relationships are caused non intentionally by relationships that develope.


----------



## bigbearsfan (Feb 11, 2014)

Pooh and Majestic, read this again!



> Things seemed to be going well until I noticed that she would always lock her computer when we worked from home. I aksed her to show me her emails as we had agreed to be open. She said no as I would see some mails to mail colleagues that I would interpret the wrong way. This of course set alarm bells wringing.


I would keep reading that until it sinks in.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

When you say lock, does that mean you can't open her computer at all? If you can, install a keylogger on it. It will record everything she types and send it to you in an email.

And before you read anything else, read Married Man Sex Life Primer. It sounds like you're a poster child for it.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I surely hope a man that has been told what your wife told you that you do not trust her in the slightest.

She goes out to "lunch" with male colleagues and emails them inappropriate emails that she wont show you?

Who goes with her on her business trips? How do you know that?


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

It is very painful, but yes I must admit the trust has gone now.
The last week has been very difficult for me. Wife and I set up boundaries and these have been broken. If I simply forgive her and give it another try, she will most likely do it again. 

Think a split is on the cards now, it's a matter of time. 

thanks again for all the suggestions.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If you do nothing else, read MMSLP (in Chap's byline). It will really open your eyes.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

knightRider said:


> It is very painful, but yes I must admit the trust has gone now.
> The last week has been very difficult for me. Wife and I set up boundaries and these have been broken. If I simply forgive her and give it another try, she will most likely do it again.
> 
> Think a split is on the cards now, it's a matter of time.
> ...


She would have to stop to be able to do it again. Dude, she's in a full blown affair. She agreed to the boundaries thing to throw you off her trail. When push came to shove though, she showed you what she thought of your boundaries.

Who goes on the business trips with her and how do you know? How do you know they're business trips? Have you ever asked to go along?

From what you have posted the likelihood she is cheating is over 95% certain.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

https://www.brickhousesecurity.com/search.do?query=pen+recorder

Have you bought the vars yet?


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> She would have to stop to be able to do it again. Dude, she's in a full blown affair. She agreed to the boundaries thing to throw you off her trail. When push came to shove though, she showed you what she thought of your boundaries.
> 
> Who goes on the business trips with her and how do you know? How do you know they're business trips? Have you ever asked to go along?
> 
> From what you have posted the likelihood she is cheating is over 95% certain.


The trips have been work related as she has skyped my daughter during the trips - unless these were a cover. 

Never asked to go as they can be 3 weeks long.


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> https://www.brickhousesecurity.com/search.do?query=pen+recorder
> 
> Have you bought the vars yet?


Not sure how these would work. Woulds she not notice a new pen in her bag?


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

knightRider said:


> The trips have been work related as she has skyped my daughter during the trips - unless these were a cover.
> 
> Never asked to go as they can be 3 weeks long.


Do you verify who goes with her? Or who shows up halfway in?


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

knightRider said:


> Not sure how these would work. Woulds she not notice a new pen in her bag?


Does she drive her own car? If so, you can velcro one underneath her car seat and then retrieve it at night and play it back.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

knightRider said:


> Not sure how these would work. Woulds she not notice a new pen in her bag?


Hoe big is her bag? No one I know of her has ever been caught with a pen var. Two guys I know of have been caught with vars in her car. One didn't secure the var with heavy duty Velcro and it slid out between her feet. One was found when the affair partner searched her car. I think a mechanic found a gps one time. That's in several thousand threads.

Usually, an unidentified pen is just assumed to be picked up accidently. It actually works as a real pen. If its in the bottom of a purse it will probably go unnoticed.


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

turnera said:


> Do you verify who goes with her? Or who shows up halfway in?


She says she meets colleagues from different regions as it is a multi national. Will try and find out if anyone joins her.


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> Hoe big is her bag? No one I know of her has ever been caught with a pen var. Two guys I know of have been caught with vars in her car. One didn't secure the var with heavy duty Velcro and it slid out between her feet. One was found when the affair partner searched her car. I think a mechanic found a gps one time. That's in several thousand threads.
> 
> Usually, an unidentified pen is just assumed to be picked up accidently. It actually works as a real pen. If its in the bottom of a purse it will probably go unnoticed.


Okay, thanks Chaparral. I will try one.


----------



## Majestic Starman (Nov 24, 2013)

Business trips in and of themselves are not a red flag. I travel as much as 50% of the time for my career, and never once have I even considered straying or misleading my wife.

KnightRider, were you completely direct with your wife and say "I'm worried you're trying to hide something from me by now suddenly locking your computer when you didn't used to" ? 

Also, you don't have to *say* that you don't trust her, but (imo) anyone who wants to see their spouse's email/FB/texts etc... has trust issues. Even if the thought crosses your mind that you want to see their personal communication, that's a trust issue. If one goes so far to ask and your spouse says there's nothing going on, yet you suspect they are not being honest, that is inherently a trust issue - you don't trust them to be honest with you. I've never once thought that I needed to see my wife's personal communications, because I trust her explicitly.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Majestic Starman said:


> Business trips in and of themselves are not a red flag. I travel as much as 50% of the time for my career, and never once have I even considered straying or misleading my wife.
> 
> KnightRider, were you completely direct with your wife and say "I'm worried you're trying to hide something from me by now suddenly locking your computer when you didn't used to" ?
> 
> Also, you don't have to *say* that you don't trust her, but (imo) anyone who wants to see their spouse's email/FB/texts etc... has trust issues. Even if the thought crosses your mind that you want to see their personal communication, that's a trust issue. If one goes so far to ask and your spouse says there's nothing going on, yet you suspect they are not being honest, that is inherently a trust issue - you don't trust them to be honest with you. I've never once thought that I needed to see my wife's personal communications, because I trust her explicitly.


She told him she was having inappropriate communications with at least one man. She also refused to go to lunch with her husband so she could go on a lunch date with at least one other man.

The odds she's cheating is nearly 100% if you compare this thread to the thousands of others here.


----------



## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

knightRider said:


> Not sure how these would work. Woulds she not notice a new pen in her bag?


Ha...I never know WTF I have in my purse...


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Same here. I never even know if I even have a pen in my purse.


----------



## Pollo (Oct 17, 2014)

knightRider said:


> It is very painful, but yes I must admit the trust has gone now.
> The last week has been very difficult for me. Wife and I set up boundaries and these have been broken. If I simply forgive her and give it another try, she will most likely do it again.
> 
> Think a split is on the cards now, it's a matter of time.
> ...


Definitely get rid of her asap.
Telling you not to come for lunch so she can go around with other guys is a slap in the face. That's enough reason for me to end it right there.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Majestic Starman said:


> I've never once thought that I needed to see my wife's personal communications, because I trust her explicitly.


But your wife isn't doing what his wife is, is she? He trusted her, too, until she started acting untrustworthy.


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Let's hope she isn't one of those who sticks the pen in their mouth and gnaws on it.


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

turnera said:


> If you do nothing else, read MMSLP (in Chap's byline). It will really open your eyes.


Top tip here, thanks. Got my hands on the book. Looks very good
:smthumbup:

Have relaxed a lot more now. Caring less helps sometimes 
Waiting for the pen to come in so that I can try it out.


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

I used the recorder. 

Heared my wife talking to a work colleague. Painful to hear them talking about me and laughing at me. Felt betrayed that she would laugh at me with a colleague of opp sex. 

Told my wife to choose between me and the colleague. After a few arguments over the last couple of days, she told me that she will leave her job and find work elsewhere. She will cut off all comms with the colleague. 

Will see how this pans out.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Stand your ground. Sorry you had to hear that.

Does she know you used a var?


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> Stand your ground. Sorry you had to hear that.
> 
> Does she know you used a var?


Does not know I used a var. Keeps denying it. But I have heard it and that's all that matters to me. 

Think its time to take some red pills on life 

Thanks for your help, Chaparral !


----------



## D.H Mosquito (Jul 22, 2014)

knightRider said:


> I used the recorder.
> 
> Heared my wife talking to a work colleague. Painful to hear them talking about me and laughing at me. Felt betrayed that she would laugh at me with a colleague of opp sex.
> 
> ...


Glad to hear that, fingers crossed it all pans out for you and this has jolted her back to her senses but do hide the VAR as she will wonder how you knew and google might help her in this direction


----------



## snerg (Apr 10, 2013)

knightRider said:


> I used the recorder.
> 
> Heared my wife talking to a work colleague. Painful to hear them talking about me and laughing at me. Felt betrayed that she would laugh at me with a colleague of opp sex.
> 
> ...


going to ask a really stupid question.

Why even ask her to choose?

She clearly has no respect.

She will not stop, because making fun of you to other men is fun.

She has little or no love for you.

Why choose?

If it were me, I would tell her, not ask, to get the eff out.

Go and laugh with your guy friends that you are trying to hook up with.

You need to get your stones back and get rid of her pronto.


----------



## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

It is your right and option to enter reconciliation or file for D. Interesting Option- file and hold it over her while you R. 

You can always cancel. Delay or continue the D. 

You need to make demands she follows. Totalsunfettered access and passwords to everything in her life. Emails, FB, devices. The works. Resistance means admission and divorce. Backup her iPhone. It's super easy to recover deleted texts, photos, calls. Watch for burner phones.

You can D at any time. Now or three years from now. 

You don't have the details yet of what's been going on. Just a conversation. Double down on surveillance. It might have gone underground.

Cheaters are liars.

POSOM is working her. Instigate, isolate, escalate, get her to laugh at you. All strategy PUAs do.


----------



## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Q tip said:


> POSOM is working her. Instigate, isolate, escalate, get her to laugh at you. All strategy PUAs do.


Bob, Frankman's Mikey, rtbp's OM. Wish these azzholes did not exist.


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

Q tip said:


> It is your right and option to enter reconciliation or file for D. Interesting Option- file and hold it over her while you R.
> 
> You can always cancel. Delay or continue the D.
> 
> ...


Sorry, don't know what "POSOM is working her means"?

what does "All strategy PUAs do" mean. 

You can tell I'm a beginner to all this


----------



## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

knightRider said:


> Sorry, don't know what "POSOM is working her means"?
> 
> what does "All strategy PUAs do" mean.
> 
> You can tell I'm a beginner to all this


PUA=Pick up Artist.

He is running his game on her. (i.e. working her)
It is a science of seduction.

All explained buy various books and websites.
As Q tip stated, "POSOM is working her. Instigate, isolate, escalate, get her to laugh at you. All strategy PUAs do." this is the pattern they follow.

(POSOM= Piece of shjt other man)


----------



## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

His charming her has an effect on her. She gets addicted to the attention. It's like a drug. 

He patiently breaks her down, ever so slowly. She won't see it commg. A PUA sometimes works quite a few women at the same time. Some women recognize it and tell him to piss off. He does not bother with these women. The ones who respond in any other way, he knows there might be a chance and keeps it up.

It's a numbers game. Not all fall for it. Then, You'll get from her - he's just a friend, it was a mistake, it just happened... Not knowing he's working her for months. Sick. 

Google PUA. Lots of info out there


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

Taken a massive red pill on all this. Thanks for all the input 

There is actually nothing I can do about this situation. It's out of my control so I willl concentrate on making myself better.

Sure I can monitor her but it will be more for fun to see what she gets up to. Again I have no control, so why worry?

I'll concentrate on other women from now on, seems more fun


----------



## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

knightRider said:


> Taken a massive red pill on all this. Thanks for all the input
> 
> There is actually nothing I can do about this situation. It's out of my control so I willl concentrate on making myself better.
> 
> ...


KR, you have been hurt deeply by someone you trusted. I am sorry. Your reply above comes out of that pain, its understandable. 

You have to decide what you want. You are at the beginning of a path and have come to a fork in the road.

To try and save the marriage if possible or not. Generally saving a marriage requires the one doing the wrong to "own" what they did and to be remorseful.

Generally this requires some consequences, you have not gone that far yet (yes you are talking about them).

Don't rush this.

You can tell your wife that you will not continue in a relationship that does not have love, honesty, and respect.

As I recall she would not show you the communication she deleted.

You can tell her..."There are 2 reasons you would not show them to me, 1. They were ridiculing and disrespectful of me or they were flirty and sexual in nature." Tell her "If the later then likely the former too."

"If our relationship is to survive with love, honesty, and respect then you are going to have to "own" what you have done, tell on yourself and make it right or we will just be living a lie." "If you don't then we will both know how you have chosen."

Dont back down from this. Insist that the simple truth is the only path back. This will be very hard and painful for her to face this, many or even most cannot. 

In the mean time keep gathering information and being realistic and making a plan.

There is still a lot of basic things that the people here will share with you.

You need this information for a more informed perspective.

Hang in there!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

No dating! Have some casual one-night fun, but you are NOT ready for dating. Please trust us on this.


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

Just a thought. Is there any milleage in me asking to meet her colleague?


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

knightRider said:


> Just a thought. Is there any milleage in me asking to meet her colleague?


I like it. I would but if you're afraid don't do it. You don't want to look wweak in comparison. Didn't you say she was leaving that job?

If you can be intimidating without being obvious it would be a great way to c*ck block.

Do you really think they didn't have sex?


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> I like it. I would but if you're afraid don't do it. You don't want to look wweak in comparison. Didn't you say she was leaving that job?
> 
> If you can be intimidating without being obvious it would be a great way to c*ck block.
> 
> Do you really think they didn't have sex?


I suppose that's the main issue here. Is it an emotional affair only?
I would need evidence of physical affair....


----------



## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

knightRider said:


> Again I have no control, so why worry?
> 
> I'll concentrate on other women from now on, seems more fun


You sure do throw in the towel quickly. 

How is concentrating on other women any better than her banter with other men?


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> You sure do throw in the towel quickly.
> 
> How is concentrating on other women any better than her banter with other men?


Okay, I admit it. I'm struggling with all of this. Maybe I'm not alpha male enought yet. But after 17 years of marriage it's tough.


----------



## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Hey I get it... it just shocked me that you went from hurting over her making fun of you with a co-worker to considering doing it yourself so fast. Don't fail in your own integrity to sooth your pain. It will make you feel worse. 

Put the effort in, if it fails divorce, THEN mess with other women.

Otherwise things are going to get WAY too complicated and messy for you.

It is not wise to add destruction to destruction.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

In what way we're they making fun of you?


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

They were saying that I was behaving like a child and laughing at me. I could not hear the exact details.


----------



## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)




----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Were you?


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

Yes, I sometimes do. Many men do, it's a beta trait 

But it does sound nasty when you hear your wife laughing at you with someone of the Opp Sex. I would never do that to her.

Discussing your spouse with someone of the Opp Sex is bad taste.


----------



## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

knightRider said:


> Discussing your spouse with someone of the Opp Sex is bad taste.


It's not bad taste. It's outright disrespectful!


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And you should have walked right up to her, gotten in the middle of their conversation, looked her in the eyes, and said "Really? Are you REALLY going to do that? Here? Right now? We'll talk about this when we get home." And left. Alpha 101.


----------



## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

turnera said:


> And you should have walked right up to her, gotten in the middle of their conversation, looked her in the eyes, and said "Really? Are you REALLY going to do that? Here? Right now? We'll talk about this when we get home." And left. Alpha 101.


I thought OP heard this on a VAR.


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

turnera said:


> And you should have walked right up to her, gotten in the middle of their conversation, looked her in the eyes, and said "Really? Are you REALLY going to do that? Here? Right now? We'll talk about this when we get home." And left. Alpha 101.


:rofl:


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Nucking Futs said:


> I thought OP heard this on a VAR.


Oops? Sorry, ignore that. Never mind. Be vigilant for opportunities to be the alpha husband, though. And no, it doesn't mean beating your chest. It means quietly informing her you will not tolerate disrespect. THAT is what makes women want you. (and not laugh at you with others)


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

knightRider said:


> :rofl:


Aside from my mistake of thinking you actually overheard it, tell me what you think is funny about that. I'm curious.


----------



## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

If you need exact details I can likely boost and mod the audio for you. I've done it for others. Otoh, you may not need it.

Turn around time is slow tho. Three jobs atm.


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

turnera said:


> Aside from my mistake of thinking you actually overheard it, tell me what you think is funny about that. I'm curious.


Was not meant to affend you. I was imagining myself doing it


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

weightlifter said:


> If you need exact details I can likely boost and mod the audio for you. I've done it for others. Otoh, you may not need it.
> 
> Turn around time is slow tho. Three jobs atm.


thanks.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

knightRider said:


> Was not meant to affend you. I was imagining myself doing it


Why is that funny? Because you've never stood up for yourself?

And in what way were you acting like a child?


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

knightRider said:


> I used the recorder.
> 
> Heared my wife talking to a work colleague. Painful to hear them talking about me and laughing at me. Felt betrayed that she would laugh at me with a colleague of opp sex.
> 
> ...


If she does not know about the VAR, then how did you explain to her that you are aware of this specific male colleague? Assuming she told you about him specifically that he's the guy she normally lunches with, then how did you make her aware that you KNOW that she's having inappropriate interactions with him? How is she now that she's willing to find a different job completely in order to remove contact with this guy?

Seems like she's taking a fairly drastic step to cut this guy out completely by quitting. Without knowing how your discussions with your wife went, and what additional info she told you, seems like we're missing a step here.


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> If she does not know about the VAR, then how did you explain to her that you are aware of this specific male colleague? Assuming she told you about him specifically that he's the guy she normally lunches with, then how did you make her aware that you KNOW that she's having inappropriate interactions with him? How is she now that she's willing to find a different job completely in order to remove contact with this guy?
> 
> Seems like she's taking a fairly drastic step to cut this guy out completely by quitting. Without knowing how your discussions with your wife went, and what additional info she told you, seems like we're missing a step here.


Yes it has got into a mess. Since she locked her computer things have spirraled out of hand. Accussations, arguing etc. Maybe I've handled things badly. 

We are trying to work it out. She is behaving erratically and I'm trying to find out. I have no concrete evidence as yet.


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

turnera said:


> Why is that funny? Because you've never stood up for yourself?
> 
> And in what way were you acting like a child?


I have not stood up for myself, I've been too much of a beta male in the past. I'm taking on more alpha, so hopefully I'll balance my personality better. 

Childish in the sense of shouting and arguing in the past, like a teenager, where I should have been calmer and more assertive.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Write down a list of times she has done the same. Hand it to her. Walk away.


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

The recording of wife and male colleague has been playing on my mind for a while.

I decided to call her colleague at work and told him to keep away from my wife and not talk to her or else they'd be trouble. They do not work on the same team any more.

See how it goes but I need to stand up to this cr*p for my own sanity.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Did you get the two books linked to below? You need to earn your respect back. 

Has your wife mentioned your call? If she does you know he contacted her.


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> Did you get the two books linked to below? You need to earn your respect back.
> 
> Has your wife mentioned your call? If she does you know he contacted her.


Wife's not mentioned it yet. Let's wait and see...

Yep got the primer. Will get the other as well. Also this inspired me : 

How to become Outcome Independent using a Stoic trick : TheRedPill

Thanks ever so much for your advice, Chaparral !
Also turnera, weightlifter and others who have helped. 

Really been a tough few weeks but I'm trying to condition myself into a better mindset.


----------



## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

How goes it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

Q tip said:


> How goes it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for asking. Things appear to be improving 
We're not shouting anymore. I'm focusing on myself and talking calmly to my wife.

I'm trying to play her sh*t tests on me and it appears to be working :smthumbup: Funny how controlling emotions can have the desired effect. Tables appear to be turning. She's showing more interest in me and I'm trying to create a positive frame in the relationship. Let's see how it goes. Women can lie without realising it 

I've tried a couple of pen VARs off ebay and they are really poor quality. Suppose that's what you get for buting cheap. Will try and get better quality one to try.


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

Thought I'd update what's been going on. To sum up the original issue, my wife was acting suspiciously by locking her computer and preferring to meet male work colleagues for lunch. I also VARed her and heard her talking about me to a male colleague, laughing at me. I then told her to keep away from the colleague and I phoned her colleague and told him to keep away. 

The last 2 months have been going well. I've been monitoring her with VAR and phone. Nothing suspicious showed up. 

Recently my wife has arranged leaving drinks for an old colleague. I asked if I could come along and she said no. I asked why and she said that previously I had told her to keep away from the "laughing" colleague and she is afraid that if I see him I will cause a scene. 

I told her that this is not acceptable as I want us to be open and honest. If she does not invite me it only makes me feel that she is hiding something. She should be including me in social events. 

Personally, I would like to move on from her, but we have 2 teenage kids and I don't have enough evidence for divorce.

What do you guys think?


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'd follow her there and invite yourself in.


----------



## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

turnera said:


> I'd follow her there and invite yourself in.


Or send someone to spy in your place. She is blatantly disregarding agreed to boundaries, not good.

added this after re:reading knight's post: If my wife had a male friend who they shared jokes aimed at me and she wanted to meet said male for drinks, that = D. How much disrespect can you take? They will be slamming beers while slamming you.


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

naiveonedave said:


> Or send someone to spy in your place. She is blatantly disregarding agreed to boundaries, not good.
> 
> added this after re:reading knight's post: If my wife had a male friend who they shared jokes aimed at me and she wanted to meet said male for drinks, that = D. How much disrespect can you take? They will be slamming beers while slamming you.


Agreed, but would that enough grounds for divorce in court? Not sure about the US but UK needs more evidence I think.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

knightRider said:


> Agreed, but would that enough grounds for divorce in court? Not sure about the US but UK needs more evidence I think.


In the US, all it takes is a trip to the courthouse and filing, claim irreconcilable differences and be done with it. Only takes one partner to do it, and the other can't prevent it. Easy-peasy


----------



## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

knightRider said:


> Agreed, but would that enough grounds for divorce in court? Not sure about the US but UK needs more evidence I think.


I think you can divorce but you'll have a 1 or 2 year waiting period if you can't prove infidelity. I don't think there's any other advantage in court to being able to prove infidelity. Maybe one of our UK posters can weigh in on this.


----------



## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

knightRider said:


> I never said I don't trust her.


IMO that would be a good first step. admit to yourself, at least, that you do not trust her. No rational husband would trust a wife who was acting this way......


----------



## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

knightRider said:


> Thought I'd update what's been going on. To sum up the original issue, my wife was acting suspiciously by locking her computer and preferring to meet male work colleagues for lunch. I also VARed her and heard her talking about me to a male colleague, laughing at me. I then told her to keep away from the colleague and I phoned her colleague and told him to keep away.
> 
> The last 2 months have been going well. I've been monitoring her with VAR and phone. Nothing suspicious showed up.
> 
> ...



now I'm a bit more up to speed on all that has happened.

your instincts on this are what counts. some wives are not worth trying to "win back" - irrespective of how one might do that. i.e. they are not great prizes in their own right. if you want to move on I think you should make every effort to do that

I thought the UK was a free country. surely they allow a person to divorce a spouse based solely on no longer being able to stand them! or are you talking about a court system that calculates dire financial penalties for a divorcing spouse if they can't prove certain circumstances? don't allow yourself to be trapped, OP. even if you have to get creative on escaping it.


----------



## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

nuclearnightmare said:


> IMO that would be a good first step. admit to yourself, at least, that you do not trust her. No rational husband would trust a wife who was acting this way......


Correct.

OP, realize most of us here understand this is real-life. It's easier for those outside of the relationship to just say cut your losses as you have the emotions to work through that we don't.

But the ONE thing you must do to preserve yourself respect is not ignore the obvious and that it that you do not trust her. You must admit it to yourself, in front of mirror if you need to and the say it directly to her. 

Wish this were easy but it won't be. Your wife is clearly out of line and something drastically has to change. Change is difficult.


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

Thanks for the replies, friends. This site is brilliant. It has given me immense support when I am "down". 

I told the Mrs that I wanted divorce as I cannot have a marriage where I'm barred from her socially. 

This morning the Mrs arranged for us to meet a marriage councillor from relate, a UK relationship charity. I'll go with her and see how it goes. I'll bring everything in the open. Should be interesting to see what the councillor says, as I've learned a lot from being on this forum and reading articles over the past 6 months


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

turnera said:


> I'd follow her there and invite yourself in.


Could try this but I'm not going to "bend over" for her any more. Either we are a couple or not. Trying to exclude me from a social is the last nail.


----------



## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

knightRider said:


> Could try this but I'm not going to "bend over" for her any more. Either we are a couple or not. Trying to exclude me from a social is the last nail.


FYI, going alpha when the spouse is not used to it takes a while for them to adapt to it.


----------



## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

turnera said:


> I'd follow her there and invite yourself in.


This is what you MUST do.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I hope you had a chance to get the two books linked to below. At least go to amazon.com and read the reviews. Going to counseling is a good sign but forearmed is your best bet.

Download the books if you have to n order to read them before counseling. A good counselor will not take sides. A bad one will blame you for being controlling, needy, whiney etc.

Do not let them gang up on you. If you don't click with this counselor find another one.


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> I hope you had a chance to get the two books linked to below. At least go to amazon.com and read the reviews. Going to counseling is a good sign but forearmed is your best bet.
> 
> Download the books if you have to n order to read them before counseling. A good counselor will not take sides. A bad one will blame you for being controlling, needy, whiney etc.
> 
> Do not let them gang up on you. If you don't click with this counselor find another one.


Noted. Yes have read MMSLP. Ordering NJFs now.


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

Went to see marriage councillor today with the wife. Spent about an hour there. The councillor did not take sides which nice. 

My wife thought the marriage was quite healthy, but she wanted more trust from me and more "freedom". I was surprised by this considering all the arguments that we've had. I asked about what she meant by "freedom" and she said be able to go to drinks without me.

I told councillor that I was ready to divorce due to the continually ignored red flags that she had created. The councillor noticed that our views on the state of our marriage were very different. 

The councillor suggested that my wife include me in the drinks and that hopefully I would start to build trust in her. My wife agreed to this, I was surprised. 

A positive trip to the councillor. Wife wants more sessions and I agreed to go again.


----------



## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Watch out for the switch when you are encouraged not to go.


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

weightlifter said:


> Watch out for the switch when you are encouraged not to go.


Let's see. I'm really tired by the last 6 months.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Now the true test begins. When it's time to go out for drinks, she is going to RAG on you about your insecurity blah blah blah, and she will expect you to back down and just say 'ok ok, go without me.'

PROVE HER WRONG.

GO WITH HER.


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

turnera said:


> Now the true test begins. When it's time to go out for drinks, she is going to RAG on you about your insecurity blah blah blah, and she will expect you to back down and just say 'ok ok, go without me.'
> 
> PROVE HER WRONG.
> 
> GO WITH HER.


Yes, I intend to  
If she tries any games, it's time to move on.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If she refuses to let you go with her, calmly inform her that her bags will be packed and on the front porch and the locks changed when she comes home.


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

Went to drinks with the Mrs and it was okay. Did not see laughing boy there, but no issues. 

Also, just had breakfast in my wife's work canteen. She was against me coming into her work previuosly due to me "threatening" laughing boy. 

So, things seem more positive. Wife wants more councilling but that is fine with me. 

My pen VAR has gone missing, but nothing showed up for 2 months when I was monitoring her. Not sure if I should get a new one as they cost £110.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Good job. I wouldn't get another VAR, but I WOULD periodically pick up her phone and check the numbers.


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

turnera said:


> Good job. I wouldn't get another VAR, but I WOULD periodically pick up her phone and check the numbers.


thanks, turnera, will do. 

I never realised that marriage was such hard work. Suppose I have been ignorant for some time. Thanks again to tunera, weightlifter, Chaparral et al. Your advice and guidance has been so helpful.

Will keep you updated...


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Lol, I guess pen VARs are just like regular pens, they all end up lost. Someone is likely to eventually figure out its a var. I would like to see that. Maybe it at her desk?


----------



## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> Lol, I guess pen VARs are just like regular pens, they all end up lost. Someone is likely to eventually figure out its a var. I would like to see that. Maybe it at her desk?


Yes  or she's left it in a meeting or lent it to someone


----------



## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

knightRider said:


> Yes  or she's left it in a meeting or lent it to someone


Rofl damn expensive loaner.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

update?


----------

