# Book discussion: Mating in Captivity by Esther Perel



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

I got this book a long time ago and did not pay it much attention. I thought I would revisit it now that I am in a different place emotionally and see if I get anything new from it.

Who else here has read this book and what were any good takeaways from it? From reading it long ago I remember two primary concepts:


*Desire needs distance.* The closer you get to someone, the more challenging it is to desire that person. As a result of this concept I have always made it a point to help create and respect personal space in my marriage as something that serves to make the relationship stronger. At the end of the day there is more to share with one another. 
*Sexuality does not play by democratic rules of fairness.* This is an interesting one that to me comes across as the idea that one always has to be adapting to challenges in life. Sexuality in marriage is perhaps unbalanced by design as a way to make sure that there is always a personal challenge to help push self development forwards as a couple. Confronting these challenges is the key to unlocking passion while avoiding/protecting ourselves from these challenges only serves to kill romance in favor of keeping things calm and peaceful. 

Combining that with Schnarch's books that discuss concepts of improving differentiation and marriage being a crucible that will melt stubborn gridlocked emotions (or end the marriage), it seems to be parallel to Esther's concepts. But written from different perspectives. 

So I am reading this book again and will share my thoughts here. Feel free to chime in!

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

I haven't read the book. I should, it's been on my list for a long time.

Perel has her detractors (where's @Marduk when you need him?), but I always thought that she tried to find some of the underlying hard-core truth about sexuality in marriage. Not everyone wants to hear those truths, especially when they don't comport with the Western ideal of utopic monogamy, but I always gave her credit for seeking difficult answers to difficult questions.

How's that for a non-answer?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Not everyone wants to hear those truths, especially when they don't comport with the Western ideal of utopic monogamy, but I always gave her credit for seeking difficult answers to difficult questions.
> 
> How's that for a non-answer?


My wife always asks me about what I am reading, I showed her this book the day it arrived. She skimmed through it and landed on the chapter about "rethinking fidelity" and how historical views on monogamy have changed over time and continue to do so. Once it got into "inviting the third" she threw the book down and questioned if the author had ever finished college or gotten a real degree. Unfortunately my copy of the book does not give any indication of the author's educational background, so she told me to stop reading it. At the time I just glanced through this book and ordered a few others making sure the authors had a Ph.D. next to their names. 

The author has some interesting videos on Youtube, so I watched those before diving back into this book. She comes from a background of working with community trauma and how it impacted relationships. I think if she had one thing to say it would be, "don't destroy your marriage by being overprotective" is the notion of what she is trying to say. 

When she talks about having children and how that impacts the intimate lives of the respective parents, she claims that it is not the child that causes that issue. Instead she points out that as adults that is the time where most couples begin to focus on safety and become overprotective about everything. It is that behavior that in turn sacrifices the fun and excitement of passion in favor of a lifestyle that is overly safe, routine, and very predictable. 

@Cletus from what I have read of your posts, you have been living in a sexual world of extreme safety, routine, and predictability and are fed up with it. I am curious if anything, what advice you might find useful in this book. If I find something that fits your situation, I'll point it out...

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

badsanta said:


> @Cletus from what I have read of your posts, you have been living in a sexual world of extreme safety, routine, and predictability and are fed up with it. I am curious if anything, what advice you might find useful in this book. If I find something that fits your situation, I'll point it out...
> 
> Cheers,
> Badsanta


Hot damn, now I have someone doing my homework for me! 

Thanks.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

I read the book and largely liked it. A lot of what she said made a lot of sense. I'm a little critical of Perel's seeming advocacy for affairs, but aside from that it was a good book.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Hot damn, now I have someone doing my homework for me!
> 
> Thanks.


If you let me do your homework, the results will probably make for a good plot in the next movie by the Duplass Brothers. 









The One I Love (film) - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





The first thing I need you to do is travel to the countryside with your wife to a strange empty house and smoke some pot. 

Badsanta


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

At the prompting of members here I read it. It was a bit of a slog.
The helpful truth I got from the book is that no relationship, even a marriage exists in a vacuum. There is always someone interesting just around the corner. Or even someone interested. Once you accept this idea: that you are looking, your partner is looking, people are looking at you, people are looking at your partner, then you can use that energy either to break your relationship, or to build it. It is up to you. You do not need to isolate your partner or yourself to have a strong relationship. You do have to be strong people, But, you knew that.
You can get all of the distance you need from that alone. The chapter on rethinking fidelity was an exception to the rest of the book.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

badsanta said:


> If you let me do your homework, the results will probably make for a good plot in the next movie by the Duplass Brothers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Eh, we already live in a strange (mostly) empty house in the countryside. But the pot? She's about as open to that as to a long list of sexual practices. So I guess we get a C- on our assignment.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Haven't read her book but have found her podcast ("Where Should We Begin?") interesting.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> I read the book and largely liked it. A lot of what she said made a lot of sense. I'm a little critical of Perel's seeming advocacy for affairs, but aside from that it was a good book.


Part of me wonders if Perel's approach to infidelity is the notion that a relationship can survive or even benefit from the dynamics of an affair. Historically once a woman married it would be virtually impossible for her to divorce and remarry. Today divorce and 2nd marriages are widely accepted. In most discussions here on TAM, once a marriage reaches a certain point many folks advocate that being able to end a marriage is sometimes the only thing that can fix it. Obviously it is implied that ending a marriage implies that one is ready to move on and find someone else. 

I guess that boils down to the idea of what makes us the best that we can be? Is it competition or cooperation? One might argue that being too competitive does not give us a fair chance to fail and learn from that. On the other hand being too cooperative tends to make us complacent and allow things fail without consequence. So the answer is neither and that we must manage both competitiveness and cooperativeness in order to be our best. 

So being faithfully monogamous with the underlying threat of divorce or an affair should one become too complacent in a relationship is likely why Perel advocates keeping the door open to infidelity in order to strengthen a relationship. 

I am still reading and digesting, so I could be wrong about this stance. But this is what I am gathering. 

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Cletus said:


> So I guess we get a C- on our assignment.


Here is the extra credit portion of your homework assignment:

@Cletus buy a second cell phone and anonymously contact your wife as her secret admirer.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

badsanta said:


> Part of me wonders if Perel's approach to infidelity is the notion that a relationship can survive or even benefit from the dynamics of an affair. Historically once a woman married it would be virtually impossible for her to divorce and remarry. Today divorce and 2nd marriages are widely accepted. In most discussions here on TAM, once a marriage reaches a certain point many folks advocate that being able to end a marriage is sometimes the only thing that can fix it. Obviously it is implied that ending a marriage implies that one is ready to move on and find someone else.
> 
> I guess that boils down to the idea of what makes us the best that we can be? Is it competition or cooperation? One might argue that being too competitive does not give us a fair chance to fail and learn from that. On the other hand being too cooperative tends to make us complacent and allow things fail without consequence. So the answer is neither and that we must manage both competitiveness and cooperativeness in order to be our best.
> 
> ...



Threats are meaningless if you're unaware of the follow-through. A threat of divorce makes sense because you'll be aware that it's happening. Most people in an affair don't announce it at dinner (Skyler White notwithstanding).


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> Threats are meaningless if you're unaware of the follow-through. A threat of divorce makes sense because you'll be aware that it's happening. *Most people in an affair don't announce it at dinner* (Skyler White notwithstanding).


Correct, but many spouses often question openly or secretly if the other might be having an affair. So over dinner a suspicious spouse may very well ask that question. 

The next question becomes if that suspicion can be used in a positive way to help benefit the relationship to improve intimacy.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

badsanta said:


> Correct, but many spouses often question openly or secretly if the other might be having an affair. So over dinner a suspicious spouse may very well ask that question.
> 
> The next question becomes if that suspicion can be used in a positive way to help benefit the relationship to improve intimacy.


I think once it gets to a point of suspicion, it's actively doing harm. Things may or may not be able to be repaired after that, but I don't think an explicit or implied threat of an affair is healthy for a relationship. You can't threaten someone into trusting or loving you more.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> I think once it gets to a point of suspicion, it's actively doing harm. Things may or may not be able to be repaired after that, but I don't think an explicit or implied threat of an affair is healthy for a relationship. *You can't threaten someone into trusting or loving you more.*


I would tend to totally agree with you on this! 

But for arguments sake perhaps there is another side to this. One thing I have read about is the topic of hysterical bonding. Here is an old discussion on TAM about how it skyrockets the intensity of sexual intimacy for couples after it had been otherwise problematic:









Hysterical Bonding and its significance


I'm wondering about the topic of hysterical bonding and what it means to reconciliation, if anything. How long did it go on for you and your spouse? Was it a pre-cursor to a solid reconciliation? Or even with HS present, did your spouse return to the AP and/or did you divorce eventually? And...




www.talkaboutmarriage.com





So this would possibly lead one to conclude that *intense and erotic sexual intimacy is NOT about trusting someone.* There needs to be some kind of risk or unknown threat in order for things to get exciting. I think this is what Perel is trying to convey. It is counterintuitive. And it also gets right into her stance that intense and erotic sex does not play fair or by any set of democratic rules.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

badsanta said:


> So this would possibly lead one to conclude that *intense and erotic sexual intimacy is NOT about trusting someone.* There needs to be some kind of risk or unknown threat in order for things to get exciting. I think this is what Perel is trying to convey. It is counterintuitive. And it also gets right into her stance that intense and erotic sex does not play fair or by any set of democratic rules.


I remember from WAY back a Playboy article (yeah, yeah, I know...) about how a smart woman would take a man to a party where he could be surrounded by beautiful women, then take him home and be the one to bang his brains out.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Between Perel and Schnarsh, I think they have captured the root and truth behind much of modern human sexuality. Perel has another book as well, although seemed not as robust. Her book can also be fairly summarized in her YouTube/Ted Talks. 

One thing I think is for SURE true (and mentioned in replies above), is that sexual excitement is driven by a sense of risk. People may perform better sexually once they get to know each other deeply, but the "excitement" part actual can diminish as people get closer, hence her idea of creating distance. I lived this, when a spent two years working 400 miles away Sunday night through Thursday night. My wife still recalls that her desire was greater during the times I was home, due to us having some level of distance each week.

Another think Perel touches on that is interesting, is the concept that when a spouse sees the relationship as being that of a caregiver, it quickly becomes non-sexual.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Married_in_michigan said:


> One thing I think is for SURE true (and mentioned in replies above), is that *sexual excitement is driven by a sense of risk. *


This is an interesting concept because there are often a lot of risks when a relationship is new:

Risk of not knowing if the person will be committed long term to the relationship
Risk of not knowing if the person has a another sexual partner still interested
Risk of getting pregnant
Risk of STDs
Risk of not having a private place for sex (get caught by roommates or parents)
Risk of not knowing how to perform sexually for a new partner
Risk of not knowing if the other person will be judgmental about your body
So on and so on...

However later in a long term relationship those same risks do not always serve to maintain excitement over time. For example the prolonged risk of getting pregnant can actually create problems for a couple in the form of anxiety. It is not until you remove a prolonged risk that it allows for things to get exciting again. Like when a form of reliable birth control is implemented, things get much more intense and frequent. The same could be said for when a young couple gets apartment and for the first time have absolute privacy alone together. Removing the risk of being caught by roommates or parents actually creates more opportunities for better sex.

Now that I am thinking about it.... It seems as though while eroticism needs risk in order to thrive, it is actually the act of removing that risk that serves to create the erotism. Once the risk is removed long term then the eroticism is gone. Like not having to worry about pregnancy for many years and almost always having plenty of privacy for many years. ...meh! 

In my opinion life is so messy and full of risks that there is no need to invite more people into the equation. Instead of stopping to smell the roses, perhaps we just need to stop and realize the risks we all take in day to day life. 

Schnarch would advocate for the risk of not truly knowing one another as the primary thing to work on. We all have imperfections that we hide from our significant other in an attempt to "protect" the relationship. It is not until we "risk" the relationship by revealing our imperfections/faults that there is an opportunity to remove that risk and become closer. 

Badsanta


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## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

badsanta said:


> Correct, but many spouses often question openly or secretly if the other might be having an affair. So over dinner a suspicious spouse may very well ask that question.
> 
> The next question becomes if that suspicion can be used in a positive way to help benefit the relationship to improve intimacy.


That actually happened to me. The wife invited me to dinner which was very unusual at the time. I was thinking, awesome shes finally putting effort into our relationship, man was I wrong! About 30 minutes into it she asks me to confess to the affair I wasn't having.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Always Learning said:


> The wife invited me to dinner which was very unusual at the time. I was thinking, awesome shes finally putting effort into our relationship, man was I wrong! About 30 minutes into it she asks me to confess to the affair I wasn't having.


How did you respond?


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## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

Laurentium said:


> How did you respond?


At first pretty shocked at the question out of the blue, cant get to vocal in the middle of a restaurant. I asked lots of questions and did my best to assure her she was wrong. I agreed to go to marriage counseling since we needed it anyway (dead sex life for a long time). She thought it would give me an opportunity confess. It dragged out for months where I eventually found out she was in at least an EA (did know what one was back then). At that point I shut down the counseling and the entire discussion about my supposed affair. Told her if she wanted to end the marriage fine, but I was not discussing the affair that never happened any longer.

The discussion stopped we had some hysterical bonding for a while and we moved on. I was not a reader here then and not wise enough to dig into her EA further than putting an end to it. She claimed to be getting anonymous info about my non affair which I believe was her EA partner and I have some proof of. She refused to admit it was him.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I love Esther Perel. I haven’t read any of her books but I’ve watched a lot of her ted talks and YouTube videos. 

I learned a lot from her and I agree with her on many things. I personally am not into the non monogamous thing. I respect her opinion and think it will work for some people, but that’s not personally who I want to live my life. I don’t let that discredit her from the amazing things she has taught me.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

I actually think Esther has some concrete ideas in her book, but as many of you noted many people are not ready to hear what deep down they know to be true. The institute of marriage has not kept up with the changes in technologies, social interaction, and longevity. we are living longer, we have more free time, and we are inundated with senor over load of social interactions, these three things have impacted an institution of marriage where the average lengthen of those marriages were counted in years not decades due to death of one of the spouses. Maybe we are asking marriages to last longer than they should, longer than we are capable of handling.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Lostinthought61 said:


> I actually think Esther has some concrete ideas in here book, but as many of you noted many people are not ready to hear what deep down they know to be true. The institute of marriage has not kept up with the changes in technologies, social interaction, and longevity. we are living longer, we have more free time, and we are inundated with senor over load of social interactions, these three things have impacted an institution of marriage where the average lengthen of those marriages were counted in years not decades due to death of one of the spouses. Maybe we are asking marriages to last longer than they should, longer than we are capable of handling.


And I think she does a good job at talking about desire in a marriage because it’s definitely not normal or natural to desire your spouse of 20+ years.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> And I think she does a good job at talking about desire in a marriage because it’s definitely not normal or natural to desire your spouse of 20+ years.


Since I am 24 and a bit years into my current ongoing sexual relationship with my wife, it is fortunate that my wife and I are abnormal and unnatural.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> And I think she does a good job at talking about desire in a marriage because it’s definitely not normal or natural to desire your spouse of 20+ years.


In my opinion I think "not normal or natural" could have a better choice of words. Perhaps "not easy or guaranteed" might work better.

From all my reading from Schnarch, Nagoski, and combined with work on my own marriage it is often the inability for one to learn how to embrace and love their own personal imperfections. This inability to love yourself is what causes problems. We all want to be a better person for our spouse, and that better version of oneself is often the one that is desired. In reality it is always an imperfect person that is present and we teach ourselves and spouse to reject that person. When we fail at becoming a better person the result is that desire in the relationship fails as well.

So the beginning of the battle is learning to love and appreciate yourself as imperfect as that may be. Then you have to help teach your partner how to love and accept your true self as well.

I am curious how Perel addresses this aspect of relationships. Most often a relationship consist of four people. An imperfect couple that each keeps hidden from the other and the better version of themselves that never seems to really materialize. Who loves and desires who in that relationship...

Anyway, I am enjoying reading this weekend! 

Badsanta


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

I believe the lies and deceit Perel advocates indirectly for in affairs is overshadowed by the death of trust. If my WW has asked to open the relationship, I would have considered her offer and responded with a counteroffer of divorce. Her PA provided her that validating, risky sex. If your partner is bonded deeply to you and values integrity, this betrayal cuts to the bone ... forever. As Nietzsche said, “_I'm not_ upset that you _lied to me_, _I'm_ upset that from now on I can't believe you.”


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Cletus said:


> I remember from WAY back a Playboy article (yeah, yeah, I know...) about how a smart woman would take a man to a party where he could be surrounded by beautiful women, then take him home and be the one to bang his brains out.


What is that supposed to prove or at least indicate?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I find that EP does a lot of word salad. Too much emphasis on sex. In everyone's life sex becomes less and less important. loyalty, reliability and other qualities become more important. If all EP can talk about is eroticism and the like, she's ignoring the main reasons why humans are monogamous in the first place.

Take for example this weekend, I can't imagine my husband being here, helping me to lift my mother and cook for her if I were shagging some other guy. I certainly wouldn't be doing it for him and his mother under the same conditions.

I have looked over past relationships. A couple of them happened because I was (younger and) horny. boy, do I regret the time effort wasted on them.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Everytime we bring up EP people shut her down because she doesn’t think cheating is the end of the world. She doesn’t encourage it. Anyways I don’t want to get into that. What about the other things she talks about like the OP was trying to talk about? 

I agree with the desire needs distance. I also remember her talking about being at a party or whatever and seeing your spouse being themselves from a distance and how attractive that is. I can’t agree more with that! 

The democracy of unfairness.... I haven’t read much about that, but it does make sense. We can’t always be equal, we need to constantly work to make things good. And I don’t mean work as a negative thing.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Married_in_michigan said:


> Another think Perel touches on that is interesting, is the concept that when a spouse sees the relationship as being that of a caregiver, it quickly becomes non-sexual.


This is an interesting one as I did read the chapters on parenting over the weekend. What I digested from this portion of her books is that the parent that serves as the primary caregiver for the children in a marriage tends to be the one that looses all their desire for sex with a spouse. 

She theorizes that this happens because parenting is both physically exhausting and emotionally fulfilling. At the end of the day for the primary caregiving parent there is nothing left to give energy-wise nor does that person need/desire anything else emotionally. While I have not yet digested her solution for that, from what I understand she advocates that parents need to make each other a priority. There is a book she advocates reading and leaving out on the nightstand called "Hot Mama" so I think I will give that a read as well. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> *The democracy of unfairness.... *I haven’t read much about that, but it does make sense. We can’t always be equal, we need to constantly work to make things good. And I don’t mean work as a negative thing.


From what I gather "unfairness" is one of the critical ingredients needed to build anticipation and desire. Perhaps it can be used both constructively and destructively depending on the couple. 

My theory is that what ends up excitingly unfair for one serves to be upsettingly unfair to the other. Thus a dynamic that serves to build desire for one spouse while gradually destroying it for the other over time. An example might be spontaneity versus anticipation. One partner enjoys carefully planning and anticipating only to see that desire compound when plans fail, while the other misses spontaneity and adventure and gets anxiety and guilt by repeatedly cancelling anything that is too routine or planned. 

Flip that around and if sex is always spontaneous and in the spur of the moment, the person that enjoys anticipating and planning will not have had a chance to build any desire or excitement for what is about to happen.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

badsanta said:


> There is a book she advocates reading and leaving out on the nightstand called "Hot Mama" so I think I will give that a read as well.


Well I was trying to find her reference to that book and now I can't. It may be "Sexy Mama." I need to find it to make sure I get the author right as the books listed on Amazon by these titles are not readily available or that well reviewed.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

badsanta said:


> This is an interesting one as I did read the chapters on parenting over the weekend. What I digested from this portion of her books is that the parent that serves as the primary caregiver for the children in a marriage tends to be the one that looses all their desire for sex with a spouse.
> 
> She theorizes that this happens because parenting is both physically exhausting and emotionally fulfilling. At the end of the day for the primary caregiving parent there is nothing left to give energy-wise nor does that person need/desire anything else emotionally. While I have not yet digested her solution for that, from what I understand she advocates that parents need to make each other a priority. There is a book she advocates reading and leaving out on the nightstand called "Hot Mama" so I think I will give that a read as well.
> 
> ...


There is also another element to the "caregiver" scenario, which is when a spouse sees themselves as the "caregiver" to their spouse. For example, if a wife sees her husband as someone who requires her to care for him, it can draw away from the sexual interest. It was explained that it is very hard to look at someone from both the view of their caretaker and as a sexual interest. 

I honestly fee Perel is onto something that is about human true carnal nature, and how that differs from what may seem logical and what society wants relationships to be. True raw desire comes from a very carnal place within someone, and does not always align with what that same person may wish things to be or what they think society is expecting.

I found the applies sexually to what people crave in their sexual life. It often differs from what they would say logically. My wife is a great example of this. She is a life long believer that sex is designed within a heterosexual monogamous marriage. She values PIV sex first and foremost as the ideal. She will say that over and over and over....and I believe her logical mind truly does feel that way......but what will get her panties wet and cause her to run into the bathroom and rub one out....an illicit lesbian encounter she sees on tv, reads in a book, thinks about. Her carnal mind and her logical mind don't actually align at all. 

What Perel tries to bring forward, is the realization of how the carnal mind actually works, and removes the stereotypes of logical thinking we all assume should be the case. It is the same thing with the "girls attracted to bad boys" situation. Many stereotypical women state over and over of their dreams since children of the handsome man who will romance them, be stable, have a good job, be an awesome dad to their children, love them unconditionally......but that does not necessarily equate to who they want to f&%k. Not picking on women, men do the same in their own way, and I also know not all men or all women follow the pattern, but I firmly believe what a persons logical mind thinks they want and what they really want (sexually speaking) are often not one in the same.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Well I was trying to find her reference to that book and now I can't. It may be "Sexy Mama." I need to find it to make sure I get the author right as the books listed on Amazon by these titles are not readily available or that well reviewed.


The book Ether Perel recommends on the topic of Parenthood and caregiving is "Sexy Mamas" by Cathy Winks and Anne Semans.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Married_in_michigan said:


> ...It is the same thing with the "girls attracted to bad boys" situation. Many stereotypical women state over and over of their dreams since children of the handsome man who will romance them, be stable, have a good job, be an awesome dad to their children, love them unconditionally......but that does not necessarily equate to who they want to f&%k.


I once did a poll here regarding if people fantasized about their spouses. It was deleted as that violates the rules. My discussion point was that my wife historically refuses to believe that I fantasize about her and claims that she is not attractive. I wanted to understand why she did not believe me. 

Well the poll got interesting. Most husbands claimed that they do fantasize about their wives. Most wives said they needed something... well... a little more powerful to get them going than solely fantasizing about their husbands. It was a discussion that was very polarizing with regards to women versus men and the ability to enjoy fantasizing about one's own spouse. 

Perhaps at the root of this difference is that men (unlike women) need nurturing. Men more often need a spouse to help clean, cook, and tend to our health than vice versa. Much like their mother did for them at a younger age. Thus the tendency for the wife to become a "caregiver" and loose her desire. If she needs to awaken her desire then she likely needs something more exciting than a pile of messy thoughts associated with her husband's dirty cloths everywhere that she just washed.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

My wife and I have a couple we socialize with often and are fairly close with. I know both the husband and wife well, and we talk very openly about our marriage and sex. 

The husband and I were chatting recently, and it was the story I have heard some many times (myself included for many years). 

He is a healthy good looking fit guy, has a good job, provides for his family, is a good dad, involved in his kids life, helps equally around the house and with the kids, peruses his wife romantically, good communication.....all the things most people expect in a good marriage. He and his wife both agree they really love each other........BUT.....she often does not feel sexual towards him or about him. She feels he is handsome, clean (no hygiene issues), she loves him, feels close to him, cares about his well being, but just does not feel that the idea of sex with him makes her "horny". She said she just rarely feels any urge for it. She is close to typical age for menopause, so hormones may be a factor, but she said she DOES get horny, it is just often about other things. Since I was looking at this from the outside and not being directly invested, I felt some clarity that it was very inline with Perel's book. The bottom line was there just was not risk and excitement..,.there is no unknown, no anticipation. 

They do have sex, but seems mostly driven from the interest in feeling close and connected, and not much about erotic desire or sexual feelings (from her side). I told them about Perel's book and Schnarsh...hope they take me up on it


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

badsanta said:


> The book Ether Perel recommends on the topic of Parenthood and caregiving is "Sexy Mamas" by Cathy Winks and Anne Semans.


So this is going on a bit of a tangent for this thread, but I'm just starting this other book and here are a few things that "Sexy Mamas" gets into surrounding the issues of parenthood and marriage which most are obvious. These are my take aways reading as a husband and may not be reflected directly in this book (as it was written for women by women): 

For parents the notion of having children drastically changes one's sense of self and what the female body endures for creating children (women are often uncomfortable with how their body changes after childbirth)
Most women feel the idea of being sexually desirable as something that conflicts with being a mom. They struggle to reconcile that they can be both a desirable wife and a mom as something that only rich people can afford by having personal chefs, trainers, and nannies. 
Women need to keep in touch with their sexuality through masturbation and enjoying sexually explicit materials.
A woman that us offended by sexually explicit materials should recognize that it is a result how she was raised to find sexually explicit things as dirty instead of enjoyable. Being raised this way by your parents and church is something that can kill desire. Sexually explicit materials should be viewed as something fun and adventurous that compliments one's joy of self exploration. 
Great sex is not bound by age or body size and should be something that can be enjoyed throughout one's life and at all stages. If anything the body's ability to have an orgasm is the same regardless of if you are overweight or not. 
Great sex and enjoying one's libido are healthy for the body.
Being a parent is more effective in an marriage where spouses enjoy desiring one another and make that a priority

...that is about as far as I am and I am enjoying reading this book. 

One of the reviews on Amazon harps on the fact that if a woman is struggling with her self esteem and body image, that bringing sexually explicit content into the home with porn stars that have perfect bodies is absolutely NOT going to help. I would tend to agree with that, but that is not how this book presents that topic. This book is trying to address the topic of confronting one's tendencies toward sexual disgust and not allowing that to take over upon becoming a parent. Parents should rents just as many "R" rated movies for themselves as they do "G" rated movies for the whole family. Unfortunately once people become parents, it is mostly the "G" rated movies present in the home that help everyone feel safe. We forget about the joy and adventures of being an adult and as a result it destroys desire between a married couple. If there is an "R" rated movie playing, parents often feel uncomfortable with that even when watching alone. 

I guess a comment like, "Wanna go on a fun date and we can watch that new Disney Princess Fairytale Movie with the whole family" would pretty much hit home as to what it feels like to be a married couple with a family. Couples tend to forget how to be adults and have fun as adults. We all become overprotective and embrace sexual disgust to stay safe. 

Badsanta


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

badsanta said:


> One of the reviews on Amazon harps on the fact that if a woman is struggling with her self esteem and body image, that bringing sexually explicit content into the home with porn stars that have perfect bodies is absolutely NOT going to help. I would tend to agree with that, but that is not how this book presents that topic.


So,....there is a twist on this. I think the book may be suggesting that the women use sexual explicit content alone (hence the masturbation reference), therefore it takes SOME aspects of body shame away. I know for my wife, she can feel jealous of how women in movies look, but it is more because she would be jealous that I may find them appealing. If she were watching alone, it still may spark feelings for her that she "does not compare", but less so than if we were watching together.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

badsanta said:


> Women need to keep in touch with their sexuality through masturbation and enjoying sexually explicit materials.
> A woman that us offended by sexually explicit materials should recognize that it is a result how she was raised to find sexually explicit things as dirty instead of enjoyable. Being raised this way by your parents and church is something that can kill desire. Sexually explicit materials should be viewed as something fun and adventurous that compliments one's joy of self exploration.


As long as the level of use fails to reach addiction. Use of erotic material is not keeping my wife in touch with sexuality, it has replaced it. There is nothing for the sexually explicit materials to complement. Women are not all immune to the problems with porn that men fall into.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> As long as the level of use fails to reach addiction. Use of erotic material is not keeping my wife in touch with sexuality, it has replaced it. There is nothing for the sexually explicit materials to complement. Women are not all immune to the problems with porn that men fall into.


In my opinion "addiction" is a problematic term for when a relationship is interrupted by sexually explicit materials and solo masturbation. Yes there are problems, but the driving issue is likely deep seated in emotions like shame and guilt. Many people hide things from a spouse to "protect" the relationship and in doing so it actually serves to harm the relationship by creating distance and emotional boundaries. Some people just can't get over that. Some people allow shame and guilt to build and continue to grow the associated emotional barriers to protect the relationship. As a result of the other person not having any control or access to this behavior or emotional activities involving sexually explicit content, it tends to look and feel like the other person has an addiction. Emotional shame and guilt may be overlooked as the source of the problems. 

Since Esther Perel cites the fact that eroticism thrives on a elements of risk and adventure, it is easy to see how risking exposure to one's shame and guilt actually serves to make something extremely erotic. Porn thrives on this. Take away the shame and guilt and it very well could become boring. Also northing can kill eroticism more than turning over your porn collection to someone that is upset with it and wants it to be taken away. Nothing can be more erotic than getting forbidden porn back and enjoying it again in the form of contraband.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Back to my reading of "Sexy Mamas" which is recommended by Esther Perel... 

Perel highlights that there needs to be a sense of risk and adventure in order for eroticism to thrive. Meanwhile couples that are parents need safety and routine which tends to throw cold water on marital intimacy. 

So one challenge that faces parents sharing the home with other family members is privacy. The bedroom can be invaded at any time by someone having trouble sleeping. Some families share a one-room studio apartment with no privacy. This challenge can actually be embraced in a way that encourages intimacy between spouses to actually become very erotic. Some couples report that this challenge is one thing that actually has put the spark back into their romance. The more challenging privacy is for a married couple, the more potential spark that can be created. 

Why is this? Well not having any privacy serves to create distance and a risky form of sexual adventure. This might involve parents having sex in the car or going out on the balcony. It also involves premeditated ways of keeping other family members distracted or away from the home in a way that builds sexual anticipation between spouses for when that happens. The book strongly advocates for opportunistic quickies as a way to spice things up for a marriage. 

My wife has sometimes lamented that I struggle with quickies and insist on holding out for a lengthy planned session of lovemaking. According to the tips in this book I need to buy a shower massager and expand my repertoire of places in the house used for lovemaking. 

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Married_in_michigan said:


> So,....there is a twist on this. I think the book may be suggesting that the women use sexual explicit content alone (hence the masturbation reference), therefore it takes SOME aspects of body shame away. I know for my wife, she can feel jealous of how women in movies look, but it is more because she would be jealous that I may find them appealing. If she were watching alone, it still may spark feelings for her that she "does not compare", but less so than if we were watching together.


This can be a challenging topic. I think as an HD spouse that one should not advocate that the LD use more sexually explicit materials to awaken themselves. It is more about removing sexual disgust and shame. Perhaps the best way to go about this is through example. An HD could be vulnerable and perhaps open themselves up to being humiliated and criticized by an LD with regards to certain viewpoints on sexuality. Then the HD can hopefully demonstrate confidently that there is nothing to be ashamed about.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Married_in_michigan said:


> So,....there is a twist on this. I think the book may be suggesting that the women use sexual explicit content alone (hence the masturbation reference), therefore it takes SOME aspects of body shame away. I know for my wife, she can feel jealous of how women in movies look, but it is more because she would be jealous that I may find them appealing. If she were watching alone, it still may spark feelings for her that she "does not compare", but less so than if we were watching together.


Have her watch "Girls." Lena Dunham likes to show her body. It's hard to be jealous of it.

But she did write in that she had an on again, off again affair with hotty Adam Driver.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

NextTimeAround said:


> Have her watch "Girls." Lena Dunham likes to show her body. It's hard to be jealous of it.
> 
> But she did write in that she had an on again, off again affair with hotty Adam Driver.


We did watch Girls...and I would agree that my wife was probably not very jealous of Lena's constantly nude body....lol

In general, jealousy is not a major factor in our relationship. There have been some occasions that my wife mentions something, but not an issue that is frequent or major.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

So I am now about 50% through the "Sexy Mamas" book suggested by Esther Perel. Here is one unique find....

Esther says that eroticism needs risk. Meanwhile Cathy Winks and Anne Semans go to great length to talk about how we realize certain fears once we become parents. Spouses actively do whatever it takes to start protecting the marriage which includes being overprotective and not talking about problems in the relationship. Eventually this results in loss of libido as problems are ignored and issues begin to harbor negative feelings toward one another. 

"Sexy Mamas" talks about these problems and emotions as being very normal but most struggle to overcome the fear of communicating about them:

feeling to tired for sex
loss of libido
loss of attraction
feeling unloved
feeling unloving toward a spouse
lamenting the loss of romance
feeling unattractive
feeling inadequate as a lover
low self esteem
so on and so on...

Winks and Semans point out that yes these are scary topics to talk about openly and directly with a spouse, but that ONLY by doing so will you be able to work on them as a couple. It is also pointed out that if one can overcome their inhibitions to talk about these things that they will discover that the problems are not as bad as they thought.

For example a wife with no libido may feel extraordinary anxiety and guilt because she thinks her husband wants sex every night. Upon having an open discussion about that she may find that while he makes repeated advances that he does not have to have sex that often. He may very well be happy taking care of his own sexual arousal alone as long as he knows his wife will NOT be jealous or upset by that. Upon talking about these things odds are a couple will discover that the situation is much more manageable than they both feared. Meanwhile the wife likely has a hormone cycle that changes her receptiveness throughout the month that the husband needs to be more aware and attuned towards. Then everything starts getting better as a couple works on this. 

Back to Perel. Eroticism needs risk. The conversation above involves confronting one's fears and having an honest conversation about problems in the marriage. 

FREAKING BOOM!!!! Talk about some hot sex that can occur as a result! My wife and I usually have the most intense moments after opening up and having some difficult discussions. The result is often we discover how much we love and care about each other by risking what was thought would be a difficult conversation. 

In my opinion "Sexy Mamas" lays much of this groundwork by talking about how common problems are and the surrounding emotional dynamics. This will help a couple to be much more articulate and informed when discussing a problem. Mostly to understand that things need to be discussed and not ignored. Otherwise you think you are protecting the marriage by avoiding confrontation, but in reality you are harming it and destroying the things that intimacy and eroticism need in order to thrive. 

...still enjoying reading...

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Although this is a different dynamic, I have noticed that anger and frustration can lead to very intense sex. We have all heard about make up sex, and I have found that is really applicable. I wonder if similar to the impact risk has, strong emotion seems to also have a link to sexual appetite.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Married_in_michigan said:


> Although this is a different dynamic, I have noticed that anger and frustration can lead to very intense sex. We have all heard about make up sex, and I have found that is really applicable. I wonder if similar to the impact risk has, strong emotion seems to also have a link to sexual appetite.


Make up sex is indeed an interesting phenomenon. However the topic of anger in marriage is something that I have not studied, nor do I feel confident discussing in the context of improving a relationship. Unfortunately once you have anger, you also have a good chance of someone receiving physical abuse. 

So I do NOT want to advocate for married couples to get confrontational in a way that creates anger. Confrontation should be something that comes from a place of feeling calm and self confident about yourself while having a patient willingness to actively listen to the other person when discussing problems. 

My main point is that I do not understand the dynamics of anger well enough to give constructive advice on the topic. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Make up sex is indeed an interesting phenomenon. However the topic of anger in marriage is something that I have not studied, nor do I feel confident discussing in the context of improving a relationship. Unfortunately once you have anger, you also have a good chance of someone receiving physical abuse.
> 
> So I do NOT want to advocate for married couples to get confrontational in a way that creates anger. Confrontation should be something that comes from a place of feeling calm and self confident about yourself while having a patient willingness to actively listen to the other person when discussing problems.
> 
> ...


just to be clear...I am in NO WAY suggesting anger is good or promoting it for the sake of sex. My only point was that very strong emotion seems to trigger sexual interest. I have seen the anger example more prevalent than from other emotions. For me, it is really the idea of understanding how much about our emotions really drives our outward approach to sex.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Married_in_michigan said:


> My only point was that very strong emotion seems to trigger sexual interest.


There was indeed something about that in the book I am reading. I'll have to go back and find it. It was a chapter about what is often described here as a dynamic of NRE (new relationship energy). These authors discovered a study that couples with NRE benefit from an amphetamine-like brain chemical called PEA (sometimes referred to as "limerance"). It is thought the presence of strong emotions can trigger this chemical. 

At a glance the chemical PEA is naturally found in chocolate. So that seems to add up and seem pretty legit.

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

So as I have continued reading "Sexy Mamas" by Winks and Semans there seems to be a common theme regarding libido. That would be the topic of using erotic materials to cultivate ones desires and fantasies:

SEXY MAMAS

Strongly encourages masturbation as a way to stay connected with one's sexual self
Explicit materials are suggested as a way to help better explore and stimulate the sexual mind
MATING IN CAPTIVITY

Suggests that an affair is definitely not the end of a marriage
Advocates the idea/fantasy of a 3rd person can reignite eroticism
COME AS YOU ARE

Discusses a concept called "do not yuck my yum" which is about learning to confidently embrace what one finds arousing as something that helps define your own sexual identity.
It is very problematic to allow someone else to shame you based on comparing your sexuality to that of a sexual role model in society. (people are often shamed for any sexuality that conflicts with that of marital heterosexual monogamy)
If you put ALL that together, you see a common stereotype of men being shamed for self exploring while enjoying sexually explicit materials, and wives complaining that husbands have too much sexual desire. Many of us may also remember a controversial pharmaceutical trial towards producing the female equivalent of viagra. The trial demonstrated a the drug had a 30% success rate for improving the female libido. Upon trying to get the drug approved it was revealed that the placebo also improved desire in 30% of women. It was later discovered that the trial asked women to view erotic materials in conjunction with taking the placebo or the trial drug. The news had a field day showing politicians grill the pharmaceutical company about this study. Today these news articles are impossible to research as I am sure money has been spent to restore the public faith in researching new prescription drugs online.

(Light bulb going off in Badsanta's head)

hmmmmm.... Do pharmaceutical companies pay for propaganda that wives read that portrays mainstream pornography as harmful and problematic towards relationships? Resulting in shame that creates a self fulling prophecy?

Badsanta


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Interesting topic.



badsanta said:


> Unfortunately once you have anger, you also have a good chance of someone receiving physical abuse.


Maybe you are using the word "anger" in a different way to me. But I don't think the above should be true, not remotely. Anger does not have to lead to abuse or violence. An emotion of anger is often a person's involuntary response to a situation. How they behave is their choice. Ideally, they do not have to pretend they are not angry. That causes problems. In couples or families where anger is "forbidden", people have to pretend not to be angry, and that inauthenticity leads to disconnection. People need to be able to say that something angers them, without behaving abusively (shouting, interrupting, the silent treatment etc etc)



badsanta said:


> So I do NOT want to advocate for married couples to get confrontational in a way that creates anger. Confrontation should be something that comes from a place of feeling calm and self confident about yourself while having a patient willingness to actively listen to the other person when discussing problems.


Yes, I agree



Married_in_michigan said:


> just to be clear...I am in NO WAY suggesting anger is good or promoting it for the sake of sex. My only point was that very strong emotion seems to trigger sexual interest.


Often because it is a sign that the other person still cares, at least. It's less likely to get angry about a situation you have no investment in. 

There are many reasons that a relationship becomes non-sexual. Often, as Nagoski says, it's not so much because there's insufficient pressure on the gas pedal, it's more because there's pressure on the brakes. (One common reason for the foot on the brakes is some kind of physical pain (for either partner) on penetration.) 

Another that sometimes happens is that the partners become too merged with each other. I think this is part of what Perel's talking about. There needs to be some sense of seeing your partner as if they were a stranger. This needs to be _playful_. The loss of any sense of play between a couple is a big problem. Couples who "never argue", "agree about everything", and so on ... Well, can you imagine how that couple might play tennis against each other, for example? Not wanting to win, hitting the ball gently back and forth so that nobody ever loses a point? Is it enjoyable? Or is it just frustrating and boring? Now translate that into sex...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Laurentium said:


> Maybe you are using the word "anger" in a different way to me. But I don't think the above should be true, not remotely. Anger does not have to lead to abuse or violence. An emotion of anger is often a person's involuntary response to a situation. How they behave is their choice. Ideally, they do not have to pretend they are not angry.


I agree that anger is a very relevant emotion in relationships, but it is one that I have not studied. It is indeed interesting the idea of acknowledging one's anger openly and then choosing to act on that feeling in a constructive and positive way. I however fear that for those reading here that very few people have that ability and that once you reach a point of feeling anger that most people likely into a fight or flight response. Hopefully with most people just choosing to walk away or leave from the argument and hopefully cool down once that happens. 

Transitioning into a similar topic is the feeling of "hate" towards a spouse. Schnarch describes this as something that all couples encounter and do not know how to deal with feeling hate towards someone we love. He thinks that not only that it is perfectly OK to occasionally feel hate towards your spouse but that it represents a supreme opportunity for extreme eroticism to occur in the bedroom. He calls this the idea of the sadistic spouse that chooses to make sex emotionally painful/challenging in an enjoyable and healthy way of dealing with one's feelings of hate towards a spouse. OK your favorite part of sex is an orgasm, so I am purposely going to mess that up for you and enjoy your frustration. The person on the receiving end of that may very well experience mind blowing erotic sex as a result of that dynamic and sexual frustration if done just right. This is where a loving couples can work things out with some BDSM spice in the bedroom. Sometimes couples do this passive aggressively without even being aware. They end up having great sex and then feeling confused as to why it was so good. They struggle to acknowledge that hate is a very valid feeling and that it not only can but that should be used in the bedroom in the form of dominatrix/BDSM style of play. 

So hate / anger.... I think Schnarch would hope that couples learn to embrace the hate and do so in a way that allows some serious sparks to fly in the bedroom. It is a rather complex topic that likely leaves many couples confused when they enjoy it unexpectedly and unknowingly. 

In a marriage passive aggressive behavior and avoiding confrontation is how most couples digest feeling hate. That is not healthy. It is a rather complex topic for sure.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

I just finished reading "Sexy Mamas" by Winks and Semans and found one valuable nugget of advice tucked away into one paragraph. This is the idea of breaking up routine and using a rather valuable tool of doing so...

Most often sexual intimacy becomes very structured between spouses. Particularly with what we each do to designate a beginning, middle, and end to sex each time it occurs. The beginning is foreplay, the middle is PIV, and then everything ends with orgasm. Winks and Semans suggest breaking up this structure and removing PIV and or orgasm from this structure temporarily as a way to encourage erotic discovery and exploration as a couple. 

An example can be restricting PIV for a period of time so that it does not occur. A couple might later find themselves dry humping in the back seat of the car as if teenagers again. A couple may revisit some of the outercourse experiences they shared early in the relationship. It can serve to help rekindle desire and passion. 

Perel says desire needs distance, so this is an idea where breaking up the structure of sex helps not only create distance for desiring certain things, but it also allows a couple to become closer during the process. A wife that feels sex is a chore may very well relish in the idea that no PIV will occur for a week or two and that as a couple there can be more focus on snuggling and foreplay. Each will hopefully build a strong desire for PIV to occur again and will enjoy anticipating for it to return. Which anticipation and enjoying it is perhaps one of the biggest ingredients of desire. 

In my post above about couples struggling with feelings of hate, restricting PIV as a form of dominatrix-style punishment can also serve to create a dynamic of erotic frustration. A husband agreeing to that and limiting intimacy to outercourse only may not get what he wants and a wife may enjoy seeing him struggle with that and learning how learning to become more patient may very well be very enjoyable for both. 

A common problem that parens face is that intimacy not only becomes too structured, it also tends to get to the point too fast. One person may need more foreplay and the other person may be rushing things. So breaking up the idea of what each couple defines as the beginning, middle, and end is probably a very powerful tool that can help rekindle desire and create sparks by challenging each other to discover new things about one another in the bedroom. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

OK, back to "Mating in Captivity" after having finished "Sexy Mamas." So after reading these two books in tandem it offers a broader look at fidelity versus infidelity. 

For a moment we should consider the idea of a sexual fantasy and infidelity as same things in order to explore the subject usefully in the context of married spouses raising a family. As a society often value knowing someone's fantasy, but often infidelities are often shunned. However most fantasies involve a form of unrealistic infidelity and as a result we reject that as well in an effort to protect our marriages. We often feel shame for having thoughts for someone other than our spouse. Spouses would likely be infuriated to become aware that his/her partner fantasizes about someone else. The resulting shame then robs married couples of their desire and makes their relationship vulnerable to divorce or an affair.

Perel goes in detail to analyze objectionable affairs and fantasies as something that can help us learn more about ourselves and understand why it is our desire works in such an ambiguous way. She models a young couple in which the husband has a large collection of hidden gang bang porn and the wife is emotionally hurt discovering that is what he really gets off on. Once Perel unpacks the emotional dynamics of why someone would enjoy gang bang porn to the wife, the tables quickly turn and the wife can truly see the emotional struggles of her husband for the first time. He on the other hand was uncomfortable being seen in such emotional detail. Perel goes on to describe that porn provides men with an desired puzzle piece that is often missing in long term relationships. Often it is the idea that those watching have no emotional responsibilities toward a pornstar's ability to demonstrate an insatiable sexual appetite. 

Awkwardly this is the same idea that is presented by many other authors of sexual self-help book from different perspectives. It is the idea that the most powerful forms of sexual arousal and desire come from within and is then shared with a partner. This takes a great deal of self confidence and understanding of one's sexual self in order to accomplish it. Too often it is too scary to do this in front of a partner due to the fear that doing so could damage the relationship or cause further shame/judgement. 

Back to Perel. She gets into this idea that one has to decide to tell or not to tell a spouse about one's inner most fantasies. She actually advocates for emotional boundaries and privacy when it comes to the topic of fantasy. This in turn can perhaps create some of the distance that desire needs in order to thrive. She does however advocate that no one should feel ashamed of their fantasies or true sexual self. It is through understanding and knowing yourself that you can better understand how to be a better lover with a spouse. You know what makes things work and you can invite those things into your imagination while being close with a spouse while avoiding the shame of doing so. Knowing that a spouse will enjoy you sharing his/her arousal in a way that sparks eroticism back in the marriage is often what is needed. Perel says some couples can decide to be open and share everything about themselves fantasy wise and that this often serves to make relationships stronger if an when both are mature enough not to judge each other for what they find erotic. In those cases, couples seem to really thrive. 

Something for fun is to wrap you mind around one of the only forms of infidelity that is both accepted and praised by society. Imagine being married to a movie star. Then imagine your spouse winning an Oscar award for the most romantic movie of the year that required him/her to get very close emotionally and physically with someone else in order to film the scenes. We have all seen the interviews with that spouse on the nightly entertainment news. The thing to notice is that no one is shamed for what happened or being supportive of it. Often the movie star will reflect on the dynamics of what it is like to be on set versus being at home with family. Perhaps now you find yourself thinking that being married to a movie star might not be as an exciting fantasy anymore once you wrap your mind around that reality. Suddenly the exclusivity of your actual spouse seems much more valuable. So why would it take imagining actually being married to a movie star to make you feel closer to your spouse? Esther Perel advocates that exploring those things fully in our emotions is what it takes to appreciate an love what we have. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

OK, I just finished "Mating in Captivity" and allowed myself to digest it. Not a whole lot of revelations compared to all the other books out there. Here are the highlights:

Desire needs distance and adventure. As couples get closer it causes desire to become problematic in favor of comfort, security, and routine.
Eroticism is often counterintuitive. Many struggle with too much shame or fear regarding the things that are arousing. Once you let go of the shame better understand yourself, it is often found that turn ons can be explored in the context of a healthy relationship.
Nonmonogamy or thoughts of it do not necessarily have to mark the end of a loyal sexual relationship. It can actually be a huge benefit towards restoring eroticism and desire for a long term relationship. 

It is easy to see why Esther Perel has both strong supporters and critics. Here are some of my personal thoughts:

I find Schnarch's idea that certain people have different inherit modes of lovemaking to fall in line with Esther Perels idea of embracing the idea of a third. For example those that enjoy role play are open to not only imaginary partner replacement but also imaginary self replacement as a way to broaden horizons and adventure into new sexual discoveries within the context of monogamy. Ether however fails to understand/acknowledge that "partner-based" individuals are incompatible with role play as they want be known and share themselves completely present with a partner without anyone pretending. 
Distance (personal space) combined with differentiation are very healthy things in a relationship and perhaps take a while to cultivate and respect after a couple has overindulged themselves together. Ether's book helps point that out to those needing some room to help create more desire. 
Shame and guilt are two things I find that have no place in a marriage. Those emotions awkwardly seem useful in the context of how religion primarily motivates people. Perhaps people falsely believe that feeling shame is what protects us from the temptation of sin. In reality shame is what prevents us from enjoying the gift of life that god gave us. Never should it be a sin to admit who you are to your spouse and allow yourself to be loved and accepted for all your imperfections (no matter how shameful). 
The fact that eroticism is counterintuitive is something I don't buy completely. I think "shame" perverts and distorts one's sexuality and it is only by completely letting go of one's shame that eroticism and desire becomes understood, loved, accepted and healthy in the context of a loving relationship. 

At the end of the day most books suggest self confidence and communication is what helps make a relationship better. But the ability for someone to say that the are ashamed for being overweight and for a partner to make them feel loved for just the way they are is something too difficult for many couples. Confronting the fear of a spouse no longer loving you is something most couples incorrectly/silently judge by the changing quality of sex over time. Most fail to understand that the nature of sexual intimacy needs to mature in order to progress. Wanting to be wanted and needing to be needed are examples of youthful forms of desire. Selfish cultivation of a mutually shared wanting to want is the stuff that takes decades to refine. It is like working with exquisite sexual nitroglycerin which will awkwardly fail if it comes into contact with any shame or low self confidence whatsoever. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Many thanks for the summary


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Back to me doing homework for @Cletus by reading this book for any helpful tips...

While it was not in Esther Perel's book, I think you may benefit from one of the tips in "Sexy Mamas" that was recommended reading by Perel. That is the idea of taking whatever your routine is in the bedroom and perhaps removing one part of it. This would help reemphasize other parts of the routine that may be lacking effort and/or encourage new exploration. 

So from what I understand @Cletus your wife suits you up in a proverbial straightjacket and commences to have the exact same routine every time. Perhaps you could forgo PIV and insist you have to behave like a couple that is just dating and limit to working with just your hands. You could even add to that a refusal to remove your pants and challenge her to see if she can figure out how to get the job done (lap dance anyone?).

If she complains at you trying to do something different. Just claim that you are doing the same things, but creating variation by limiting something. So you can say you are not doing anything different, just more of the same with a different emphasis on certain parts of the existing routine. She can't tell you no to something you have always done, but she can struggle to not get something she has easily enjoyed too much. Hopefully that struggle will push her outside of her comfort zone to try at least a little something new. 

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

badsanta said:


> So from what I understand @Cletus your wife suits you up in a proverbial straightjacket and commences to have the exact same routine every time. Perhaps you could forgo PIV and insist you have to behave like a couple that is just dating and limit to working with just your hands.


Sorry, "no hands" is part of the straight jacket. Don't make me pull out the red pen on your assignment.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Sorry, "no hands" is part of the straight jacket. Don't make me pull out the red pen on your assignment.


Not so fast with your red pen there Barney Fife! 

Your wife's limitation with hands is on where YOU want to put your hands. You can still use your hands to give her a back rub, legs, and feet. The idea is that you make her to want you to use your hands in other places but you don't.

There is actually a lot that I have read that even wives with a healthy attitude for sex get frustrated with husbands that go straight to touching her breasts and genitals. Most often husbands will do that before she get aroused and it ends up being an annoying turn off. It is much better to use your hands everywhere but the erogenous zones (even for those wives open to being touched everywhere) and make her WANT to be touched.

Also as someone's arousal/desire increases, it also coincides with reduced inhibitions. So who knows, your wife may force your hands into places they have never been.

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

badsanta said:


> Not so fast with your red pen there Barney Fife!
> 
> Your wife's limitation with hands is on where YOU want to put your hands. You can still use your hands to give her a back rub, legs, and feet. The idea is that you make her to want you to use your hands in other places but you don't.


I own a massage table that has logged a lot of hours. After 90 minutes, you run out of other places to use your hands.

How long do you wait to see if it worked? I might be impatient, but 35 years seems maybe enough?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Cletus said:


> I own a massage table that has logged a lot of hours. After 90 minutes, you run out of other places to use your hands.
> 
> How long do you wait to see if it worked? I might be impatient, but 35 years seems maybe enough?


My wife once told me that she feels completely satisfied after eating dove chocolates with almonds. So much so that she does not desire anything else, including me. So @Cletus how many packs of Dove Chocolates do I need to buy in order to give them to my wife and make her desire me? Here is the answer: "_Honey I really like Dove Chocolates too and wish there were some in the house. Too bad there are none. Would you like a back massage instead?_"

So @Cletus if you and your wife have a routine that leaves her satisfied. The original idea is to break up that routine and remove something. Sounds like your massage table is about to have an accident. Remove a few screws so that it no longer works and claim you will take it somewhere to get it fixed at an imaginary repair shop that needs to order a part that is currently on back order due to current events. No telling when you will get your massage table back. Then suggest taking a bath together with that new shower massager you got...



Badsanta

PS: If you reply that you have a two-person shower/spa that has already logged infinite touchless shower massages, I am going to stop doing your homework!


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

badsanta said:


> PS: If you reply that you have a two-person shower/spa that has already logged infinite touchless shower massages, I am going to stop doing your homework!


Jetted jacuzzi, actually.

I appreciate what you are trying to say. There is only ONE thing I can remove from our sex life, because that's all their is. We are down to once every three or four weeks now because I have more or less done exactly that. 

Archimedes may have been able to move the world with a suitably long lever, but even he needed a lever. Just like you can't buy for someone who has everything, you cannot take away from someone who desires nothing. Or at least, when the only thing you can take away is the only thing you are allowed to do, it becomes a binary choice to do that or nothing. 

In my wife's case, it's not about expanding horizons, it is a case of actual dislike. Not "I have no interest in that", but more "I actively dislike that and want you to stop". 

So you didn't fail at the homework, you were asked to provide a closed-form integral for x^x.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Cletus said:


> So you didn't fail at the homework, you were asked to provide a closed-form integral for x^x.


@Cletus why is it that when people are online that all their problems seem solvable? But when you look at people's problems that you know in real life, it is immediately obvious that nothing can done to help them. 

One more try! According to Perel you should brag to your wife about being hit on by other women at the grocery store. Especially if it happens to be a true story!


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

I think she is on to something. Based on my own marriage, those around me and here on TAM, I do think that happy marriages and great sex lifelong sex are exceptions not rules. Having children often kills or at least hurts both: love and lust, when parents are overwhelmed and resentments build up, and boy we know it is hard to get rid of these. 
That’s why it is easier to keep spark on for people who get together later in life, post-children, post-divorce. 
At that point of my life-at 50 and divorcing (happily) I do not believe in long term love or sexual attraction as a norm. They do exist as an exception. Which is totally opposite of what most of us and society is expecting.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> I think she is on to something. Based on my own marriage, those around me and here on TAM, I do think that happy marriages and great sex lifelong sex are exceptions not rules. Having children often kills or at least hurts both: love and lust, when parents are overwhelmed and resentments build up, and boy we know it is hard to get rid of these.
> That’s why it is easier to keep spark on for people who get together later in life, post-children, post-divorce.
> At that point of my life-at 50 and divorcing (happily) I do not believe in long term love or sexual attraction as a norm. They do exist as an exception. Which is totally opposite of what most of us and society is expecting.


In the two books I just read, there was one portion that discussed that getting married and having children involved an emotional transformation that could be described as a "_total annihilation of self._" I think that is so true. Often as parents our names are even changed to that of "so and so's mom or dad" and we loose the name that was previously given to us. 

My wife was recently describing to me how now is the first time since our first child was born (the oldest is now grown with a car and job) that she is getting to start being herself again, and doing things just for herself. She describes doing so as something that requires overcoming a lot of guilt so that she can now be much more selfish with her time.

A good example is the kids unexpectedly inviting friends over to the house which kind of ruins the chances of quality time for a husband and wife. Nothing like foreplay being interrupted by a knock on the (locked) bedroom door by a clueless teenager asking what the plans are for lunch and trying to introduce you to a new friend that is standing there right beside them. ...and something about the garage is broken, you need to come see (which you later discover that your teenager ran over an aluminum scooter when parking the car in the garage)! 

...OK back to rekindling the sparks of Romance! ...not going to happen! 

So now my wife yells at the kids that no one is allowed over on the weekends regardless. Our kids can go to someone else's home if they want, but no one comes over. Weekends are now MOM's time to enjoy the house without any guests around! 

Now on the weekends my wife and I find ourselves out on dates or a hike. We will stop and wonder where the kids are, and it is nice that sometimes we both have no idea where they went or what they are doing (although they are just a phone call away where ever they are). We joke and laugh about how just a year ago we would freak out by not knowing where the kids are, but now it is nice. They have their own lives and now we are getting ours back little by little! 

I can totally understand how most couples just can't survive that romantically. It is near impossible!

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

badsanta said:


> ...and something about the garage is broken, you need to come see (which you later discover that your teenager ran over an aluminum scooter when parking the car in the garage)!



All of that going on while my wife and I were trying to get in the mood for quality time together. This is the type of stuff that married couples all have to somehow overcome and keep romance alive.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

I'm about half way through Mating in Captivity. I'm relatively certain it isn't going to be useful for me except to understand someone else's perspective. I always felt more desire the closer I was emotionally. The less "distance" I had in my relationship, the more I wanted to get hot and sweaty with her. The more comfortable I was, the more I felt empowered to explore and experiment. I have always considered the bedroom and body (and marriage) to be a playground and not a prison. I am finding it very hard to relate to anything in the book at all.



Cletus said:


> I remember from WAY back a Playboy article (yeah, yeah, I know...) about how a smart woman would take a man to a party where he could be surrounded by beautiful women, then take him home and be the one to bang his brains out.


When I came back from my bachelor party the ex and I were busy for most of the next day.... Oddly enough the strip club didn't really do anything for me (not a twitch) but as soon as I was home I was ready to go.



Girl_power said:


> And I think she does a good job at talking about desire in a marriage because it’s definitely not normal or natural to desire your spouse of 20+ years.


I'm kind of broken or backwards I guess. The only thing that ever really deterred me from approaching the ex was rejection.

My brother is similar. He laughed about how the doctor had told him to stop smoking because "It'll make your pecker stop working" while him and my sister-in-law "go at it like teenagers". I can't really think of many people more alike or more connected.



badsanta said:


> This is an interesting one as I did read the chapters on parenting over the weekend. What I digested from this portion of her books is that the parent that serves as the primary caregiver for the children in a marriage tends to be the one that looses all their desire for sex with a spouse.


After a long day of diaper changes, going to the park, playing with the kids, cooking and cleaning, etc, I always wanted to be frisky with the mom. The mindset went something like "I've enjoyed spending time with the kids and it has reinforced my love and connection to the mother so I want to express this in a pleasurable way with her so let's go play".


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Hiner112 said:


> I'm about half way through Mating in Captivity. I'm relatively certain it isn't going to be useful for me except to understand someone else's perspective. I always felt more desire the closer I was emotionally. The less "distance" I had in my relationship, the more I wanted to get hot and sweaty with her. The more comfortable I was, the more I felt empowered to explore and experiment. I have always considered the bedroom and body (and marriage) to be a playground and not a prison. I am finding it very hard to relate to anything in the book at all.


Not everyone is the same. Generally speaking relationships need a healthy amount of personal space along with well developed emotional differentiation in order to maintain the joys of being close over the long term. Otherwise you have a situation that may be more like emotional codependence lurking underneath the surface. That can get rather unstable and turbulent. 

Reflecting on that book, I still find the notion of embracing the idea of a third and ideas of exploring nonmonogamy as something I personally don't understand. In my opinion that is like playing emotional peek-a-boo with one's fear of abandonment just to get the euphoria of "here I am" when you realize your partner still chooses you. Either that or people's severe lack of self confidence creates the illusion of a third person since everyone wants to be a better version of themselves that is not realistic. So you can only explore that via proxy somehow or something. 

The one part of that book that I remember is that everyone's sexuality is not a set of fair democratic rules that are always going to be fair and easy to understand. Combined with other readings it is something that perhaps pushes our personal development forwards. *Allowing yourself to get too comfortable tends to be the beginning of the end for most relationships! *


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I really enjoyed her Ted talk about the topic and I 100% agree with her. I haven’t read her book. I will post the ted talk in case people want to watch.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)




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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

There is no neediness in desire… that one hit home for me.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> There is no neediness in desire… that one hit home for me.


That is something I think a lot of people here on TAM could spend some time thinking about! Is desire something that makes you needy or is it something that you enjoy and are grateful for feeling it. 

I haven't watched her TED talk, but I will watch it now!


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## Deepsouthdude (Feb 12, 2020)

Girl_power said:


>


That was really good. I’ve also read her book and I enjoyed it.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> I really enjoyed her Ted talk about the topic and I 100% agree with her. I haven’t read her book. I will post the ted talk in case people want to watch.


I just watched that and a few things jumped out at me. I'll preface my thoughts with a mental illustration. Imagine walking in nature and coming upon a turtle that is very active and up to something interesting. As you get closer, the turtle becomes aware of your presence and promptly disappears into its shell or quickly vanishes beneath the surface into the murky depths of a pond. 

That mental illustration in my opinion is what happens with our own imaginations when we are in the presence of a spouse. We shift our efforts instead into reading our spouse while disconnecting with our own self's imagination. 

Esther used these words, "a crisis in desire is a crisis of imagination." I think that is so true as we all need to develop and have a strong connection with our own imagination within the context of what creates an erotic reaction. She goes on to describe that eroticism needs some type of distance or bridge to cross that has a sense of discovery and adventure. Once you combine that with the notion that eroticism is also about our ability to stay connected with ourselves in the presence of our spouse, there you have it. We need to stay connected to our ability to imagine in a way that is erotic so that we can share that with a spouse. 

Now imagine coming up to a turtle in nature that is very active and up to something. As you get closer the turtle is aware of you but does not shy away or withdraw. Instead the turtle is excited to share with you the idea of something it is discovering.


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