# Betrayed by Masturbation?



## doverfun (Feb 27, 2017)

My wife and i have been married for 21 years, 3 kids (15,12,9 yrs old). I'm 46, my wife is 45. Both in good health. My wife has been legally blind since 2008. We are both very devoted to each other and have a normal marriage. My wife has had some female issues (bleeding), and had a partial hysterectomy in Nov 2015. 

Our sex life has been never been great, but what i would call good. 1x week with occasionally 2x a week. We normally both reach orgasm and I have always tried to make sure she enjoyed it. 5 or 6 years ago I told her i wanted to improve that aspect of our marriage. I just wanted more passion and trying new things to see what we would like/not like. We tried basic toys, positions, but every time I tried to get my wife to tell me what she did/didn't like she would not be very responsive and evasive. I've been working on improving things for many years to say the least. My wife was raised to be very private about sex, and has never opened up to me about sex.

I've also noticed over the years that occasionally she wasn't always into making love. She was just distracted. She had a stressful job, and 3 kids, so no surprise there. I did try to refocus her on me by whispering and talking to her and that always seemed to help. She then would get into it and the sex would be good. We talked about her not always being focus and she agreed that was an issue so we were both aware. I would tell her to focus and she would then start to get into sex enjoy it much more. She rarely initiates, and that was an issue for me with her. Its never gotten better, but I kinda just gave up on that note.

Over these last 3 years, our frequency increased from 1x to 2x. At this point, my wife only rarely doesn't have an O during sex. For the last 2 years, my wife and i have been having friends over for drinks and laughs on Friday night. Some times we would go to their house (Next door, kids in tow). Nothing sexual just a good time and drinks. We would both be at least tipsy if not intoxicated. We would come home and proceed to make passionate love to each other. Over the last year, with the bleeding, it was at times messy, but we both enjoyed each other. 

Over all of these years of trying to improve our sex life, I've always told her that I didn't feel I would ever be that man for her. She just could never let go with me. She always seems to be holding back. With seeing her on those recent Friday nights, I knew there was more in her, but sober, I was never going to turn her on so she would let go. I told her that she needed to find someone else to let go with. She was always holding back with me. She always said that was never going to happen as I was the only man for her. She's never had a second orgasm with me at any point. She didn't seem to think it was possible. 

For our 20th anniversary, we sent the kids to my father's in Denver for a week. We went to Key West. We stayed with a coworker i've known for several years for 2 days, and then went to a bed and breakfast. At the BNB, we went out carousing in KW, and came home both liquored up. Needless to say, my wife attacked me when we got back to the room, and it was some the best sex we'd ever had. 

Fast forward to this past January, after the partial, the 6 week long desert trek of no sex caused us to focus more on other types of sex. I've always been more than willing to go down on her, massage her, and kiss her all over. She's never been particularly good at bjs, but she did lingam for the first time. After the 6 weeks was over (early January), we started having sex much more frequently, 3-4x/week. I got her to agree to buy some soft videos (Hegre), to help spice things up. Nothing hard core. I also bought her luna balls to assist with kegels and her incontinence.

At one point, we went 6 days straight. Each night was a little different, but we were both into it and both enjoyed it with successful Os. One night, she had 2 orgasms. >>She told me one night that I knew all there was about her. The 7th day was Friday and our daughter had volleyball relatively early the next day. Well, we had friends over, but were going to make it an early night. I got off of work and immediately went in and said something dirty to her and she immediately shut me down saying we had to get up early. Yet, a few days before we talked about sex on Friday night, so i was very much looking forward to it. When our friends were there, she was having a good time,but I admit I was pissed. My wife is very beautiful, and I wanted to enjoy her that night. Needless to say, after our friends left I confronted her about an unrelated topic, and things blew up a bit. The next morning I basically confessed that my confrontation to her was about not having sex. She said that we should have had, cause she wanted it too after we got to bed.

Fast forward to this week. Friday, we both took the day off, and had an 'us' day. I gave her a luxurious massage, she gave me one, and things went from there the rest of the afternoon until the kids got home. I mentioned to her earlier in the month that we probably needed to put new batteries in the ancient vibrator we have. She made an offhand comment that the batteries in it were good. At the time I pondered how she knew that. Saturday, we enjoyed each other multiple times throughout the day (locked doors are a wonderful thing). Saturday night, she had a little too much wine, and we started passionately kissing when our daughter walked in from being out. We took it upstairs and had sex. During sex, we talked a bit, and out of the blue, I asked her if she masturbated. I honestly didn't know but suspected she might. I've nothing against it. I've not done it in a few years, but I've no hangups about it. Surprisingly, she said yes she does. How often? Once a week or so. She almost looked scared to tell me. I asked her how long had she been doing it, and she said for the last 5-7 years. She seemed genuinely ashamed. I told her it was no big deal but I was still a bit shocked. We made love again a second time but I wasn't that into it so we stopped.

The next morning I woke up early. Still a bit bothered by her not telling me over these years, as I had point blank asked her about it previously on multiple occasions. As to the act, she had said she only thinks about me when she does it, which I thought was a good thing. Needless to say, I woke her up a bit early and told her I wanted her to show me. She said she didn't want to, so i started in with the vibrator on her. It wasn't long and she was into it. She started touching herself, which is something I've only seen her do 1 other time with me. Finally, i told her to take over. She hesitated at first, but then finally took over and finished. I could tell it was definitely intense for her. 

We started talking about her masturbating. She seemed very defensive about it. She said it was her time, and I didn't disagree. I asked her how many times she's done it this year. Answer: None. I didn't need to. I was like what? She said with us having sex more she didn't need to do it. For me it was a red flag.

On our way to church, I asked her if she was satisfied after the morning events and if she wanted something in the afternoon. She said she was satisfied and didn't need anything later. To which I replied, ok, so you get your rocks off and deny us the satisfaction of having sex together. She didn't know what to say. She said she didn't consider her masturbation a problem,and didn't put it into the same category as the sex we have. She said she's always been satisfied with me, and us. I then asked her again, did she masturbate in January. She said no. I then asked, so if our intercourse frequency increase caused you to not need to masturbate, how can you say our lovemaking and your masturbation aren't connected? If they were separate, then you would have not stopped masturbating. She said she didn't consider them the same thing. I told her they may not be the same thing but to deny the connection doesn't hold water from the actions. Church was very long for sure.

On our way home, no communication at all. We get home, and she immediately confronts me. Are you going to leave me? No, that's not going to happen. I layout that all these years, I've been trying to improve communication about sex to no avail. I've always asked her what she likes/dislikes, wanted to try new things, yet I was shot down many times with 'I don't know'. There was always a wall i couldn't penetrate. I asked her why she didn't come to me years ago to talk about this, and she was afraid because women didn't ask for more sex. I was like seriously? WTF have I been trying to do for the last 5 years???? I told her that her stopping masturbating after our increase in frequency was a total betrayal to me. 5 years, i'd been trying to improve things. She said she wanted to have more sex but didn't know how to tell me. WTF? Really? 20 years of marriage? I then tell her it was obvious her masturbation was more important to her than improving our sex life having discovered that only after our increase in frequency caused her masturbation to stop. 

I know and understand the role of masturbation to one's self. I have no problem with her doing it and I expected her to do it at least once in a while. 

Maybe I shouldn't feel this way, but knowing her masturbation stopped was a bit much for me to take. Had it continued then there would have been no connection to our intimacy and her masturbation, but its obvious the opposite was true based on her actions and events. For this reason, I feel the last 5 years was a total waste of my time and effort. I asked here where do I get those five years of my life back? I asked her about all of the effort I put into this, and her preferring to keep soloing away instead of working on us. I also asked about her comment the week before that there was nothing more to know about her sexually. Obviously, it was a lie. NOW, she says I know everything.

I love my wife dearly, and will do anything for her, but I can't help feeling a bit betrayed by her. Knowing that she says she wants to always make things better between us, yet seeing the exact opposite is true is hard to take. Am I crazy for feeling this way?


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Well, she did want to have sex. With her vibrator. It doesn't create the same kind of pressure or stress. It's just there. 

When all you have is drunken sex, I find it sad that she has to be inebriated to be expressive. Don't you? 

I think you'll find sympathetic posters here with more experience on this subject, but when it's the man engaged in porn we often say that the physical (and to lesser extent, emotional) investment is too little for his wife. In this case I tend to feel that her spent emotional energy leaves little for you and the lack of physical is due to the exhausted emotional (mental) state.

Her hangups are going to be your biggest hurdle, because as long as she has them, you will never have access to the real her inside. She is too ashamed. 

Perhaps you should both visit a sex therapist. Or, she could start with one until she is more comfortable talking about and expressing her sexuality.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and expecting a different result. I doubt you needed this revelation of hers to confirm that 5 years of the same thing wasn't working. I do sympathize with your frustration but you have very little control in this territory. It's all on her. You can only learn to be supportive so she trusts and is comfortable with you.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

First, the alcohol. No problems with that, IMO, as it doesn't sound like she NEEDS it to have sex with you. More that a fun night out relaxes her and allows her to come down from the week's events. I honestly think the alcohol is a red herring, and it's more that the two of you are able to have a good time with friends and be adults, rather than 24/7 parents.

Second, the masturbation. Don't sweat it. Just because you've said you're always available doesn't mean she'll come running every time she's in the mood for an orgasm. Masturbation and sex are two entirely different things. If she wants to be intimate with you, she'll be intimate with you. If she's horny and wants release, she'll masturbate OR she'll come to you. Depends on her mood, depends on her needs at that particular time, depends on what kind of orgasm she wants to have, depends on a lot of things. Not one of them actually having much, if anything, to do with you, personally.

Now, I get why you're upset - you have no issue with her masturbating, however you feel that that stretch of time where she was doing it, she could have/should have come to you for sex, instead. Now that you're having more frequent sex, she's not masturbating. Uh, that's a good thing! But I DO get it.

What you're not getting is that she's still learning. Her sex drive seems to be increasing (yay!) but her communication skills are still somewhat lacking.

Now, IMO, you're doing the worst thing possible at this particular point in time by questioning her about all of this, and expressing at least some level of discontent with how things are going. Whether you intend to or not, she likely feels guilty about her masturbation escapades, where in reality, she should be feeling quite good about it - especially from you. She's still learning how to express herself sexually, and that's a great thing. Just run with it.

My wife had never really masturbated until she was in her early 30's. Some small experimentation here and there, but she's one of those women who just don't (more common than one would think). She's also low desire. Well, she went to a friend's sex toy party and came home with something, on a whim. She never owned a sex toy/vibrator before, so it was all new for her. The next 3 or 4 months she went to town. It didn't actually affect our sex life (no more or less sex, that is), but she thoroughly enjoyed the hell out of that thing for that time period. Between the vibrator and sex with me, she probably had almost daily orgasms for those 3 or 4 months. Then stopped almost suddenly. Novelty wore off, I guess? I don't know. Nowadays, it comes out very rarely, and seemingly only for use when with me. I would say the last time it was used by her only, was a couple of years ago. I could be wrong, but she never hid it or, or felt the need to hide it before. She was never embarrassed by her usage of it, including during that few months stretch of novelty.

But I get it. You want more sex with her, and you want HER to be more open and initiate, and want YOU. For a stretch of time there, you felt she was going to the vibrator instead of you. It made you feel that she was horny, wanted sex, but couldn't bring herself to initiate with you, even though you've always made it abundantly clear that you're always ready.

Part of it may have been that, for sure, but part of it may have been that she simply wanted to masturbate, and that it had nothing at all to do with you, in any way, shape or form. You said you haven't masturbated in quite some time, and that's fine. But she's not you. One doesn't have to 'save' themselves for their partners. Not everybody correlates masturbation with sex. Sure, it's sexUAL, but it's not the same. It's really apples and oranges. Most people want a nice juicy steak for dinner, but sometimes you're perfectly happy with a bowl of cereal, too.

But bottom line, I think you're projecting your attitudes towards sex and masturbation on to your wife. You're under the impression that if she's horny, she should communicate that to you. I understand that you actually have no problem with masturbation, per se, but at the same time, you're insinuating that she should really only do it when you're not available, am I right? That you should have the right of first refusal, in other words.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

OP, I think you made a big mistake responding that way. You said it yourself that her upbringing is the reason for her secrecy. You want her to be more open with you yet look at the way you responded when she finally confessed. By you getting upset you've just showed her, hey when you open up to me about sex, this is what happens. Do you really think she's going to want to come to you with her private thoughts in the future. She's been hiding the masturbation for so long and now you've made her feel even worse about it. Instead of looking to the future and seeing how you could turn this situation into a road to improvement for your sex life, you focused on all the crap from the past. You missed out on sex before because of her masturbation, yes fine but now she's shared some insightful information that you can use to avoid that continuing in the future. Don't punish her for that. She was not trying to be deceitful, her upbringing has done a number on her. Cut her some slack.

I think you should go to her and apologize for getting so upset. Explain to her that she doesn't need to be embarrassed about masturbating and wanting more sex. That you're excited that she's revealed this to you because you'd like to increase the frequency of your lovemaking too. You realize her upbringing has lead to these erroneous thoughts about sex and you regret that has prevented her from opening up about her masturbation and sex in general in the past. That if she doesn't necessarily want sex you'd love to watch her/help her reach orgasm with her toy...


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Your wife has just gotten to the point that she is able to talk to you more about sex and open up to you. She is also at a point where she is embracing her own sexuality more. And you are going to shut it down because of...????

A good thing is about to be ruined by your anger. Are you sure this is the road you want to stay on???


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## lorikeet25 (Jun 22, 2016)

So she finally opened up to about masterbating and you make her feel bad and berate her for it. 
If I were her I would never open up to you again about anything. You are not a safe place for her and you just proved it.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

doverfun said:


> I love my wife dearly, and will do anything for her, but I can't help feeling a bit betrayed by her. Knowing that she says she wants to always make things better between us, yet seeing the exact opposite is true is hard to take. Am I crazy for feeling this way?


*Irreconcilable views on masturbation should NEVER be pointed out as a problem and blamed for your frustrations. *Instead you will need to learn to accept each other's views and find ways to be aware and mindful of each other to make sure you both feel respected and loved. 

If you have already chosen this topic as something to argue about, odds are you will spend five more years trying to recover from this if not more!

Badsanta


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## doverfun (Feb 27, 2017)

@Satya Thanks for the reply. 
@alexm I'm not sorry she did in fact masturbate. Knowing her background, I don't think was comfortable doing it all at first. I do wonder if her doing it all these years has helped her get to where she was at today. I think she's learned how to touch herself to satisfaction, and I certainly appreciate that. However, I do feel that her continued masturbation allowed the wall to stay intact because she was being satisfied via other means. Not having that outlet might have changed the equation 5 years ago. I always felt that there was something between us that prevented her from letting go booze/no booze, and I told her so. The alcohol simply showed me in full context what i/we were missing. (I don't think it was the adult conversation was the trigger because other nights with just us, with the alcohol lubrication, the results were the same good fun) I also agree that she is still learning. NOTE: I spoke to a friend of mine (PHD in family counseling) early on in our marriage about this topic. He recommended to me counseling at the time, but it didn't happen. 

In the end, yes, i'd like to be the one satisfying her first. I know there are times when she will masturbate and that's fine. My issue has been that she has told me that she feels the same way about wanting to come to me first. However, she said she was scared to tell me. The lack of masturbation in January seems to prove her desires out. She's told me that she'd rather have more sex than masturbate, sooo why didn't she tell me this 5 years ago... ??? Grrr

I'm sure I'm making more out of this than is necessary. I was just flabbergasted at finding all of this out. Her telling me that i knew 'everything' only to find out a week later about her soloing also bothered me. 

The last few weeks have been awesome between the 2 of us. I just regret that this might have happened years ago. She also seems to understand my perspective of she should have come to me years ago about this. The fact that i was trying to talk to her about this exact topic years ago only makes it worse.

I've got to say that writing the long post was therapeutic. I discovered this site a few months ago, and have found it very helpful.


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## doverfun (Feb 27, 2017)

And before everyone goes crazy with my comment about her fear of telling me. She said that she was brought up that women didn't ask for more sex. She was afraid of what I would think of her. I tried to reassure her that we are married. We are allowed to have sex as much or as little as we want because its just between us. I have always let her know that i've wanted to satisfy her in all aspects of her life. I've always tried to make sure she has everything she wants. She's had issues with showing affection, even to our children, and always has. I know it all stems from her pedigree (stoic German) and upbringing. Her mother was 41 when she was born. One of the reasons we got together in the first place was the fact that I always showed her respect and affection. I still do. 

Her vision is also a big source of her insecurity in general. She's considered statutorily blind by SSA (20/200) and is on disability. As she has RP, she may eventually go completely blind. I know that weighs on her daily. To me her vision or lack thereof is of no consequence. I have always told her that its the quality of life that matters. She's going through training right now for blindness/low vision, and that has been rough on her as well.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

@doverfun honestly, I don't think the masturbation had much impact on your sex life (frequency). The orgasm experience for women doesn't quite work the way it does for men. A man who masturbates to orgasm likely will not be able to or be as interested in sex on the same day but in my experience this is different in women.

I could masturbate multiple times a day and I will still be just as horny for my partner when he gets home. So although I will be more satisfied masturbating in the absence of sex, it will have little impact on my sex drive. So in as much as I will be much less inclined to masturbate if I'm having plenty sex, it does not mean that masturbating will impact my interest/ability to have sex. 

So this betrayal thing may be applied to a man who masturbates and as a result is less inclined to have sex but I'm not so sure this applies to women. You're looking at this from a man's perspective. Her masturbating was not the reason you were having less sex however, you having more sex can definitely be attributed to her masturbating less.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

doverfun said:


> We are allowed to have sex as much or as little as we want because its just between us. I have always let her know that i've wanted to satisfy her in all aspects of her life. I've always tried to make sure she has everything she wants.


What if she seeks her sexual validation solely by pleasing you and she has no desire for you to pleasure her? Do you get frustrated that she should at least try to enjoy herself, and perhaps refuse to allow her to please you until it can be a mutual experience?

What I am getting at is that one-sided experiences are a critical part of many marriages. Since you are eager to please, you would likely be more than happy to focus your efforts on her even if you were not in the mood to begin with, and you would want her to enjoy that experience to the fullest. BUT do you allow her to do the same for you, or do you perhaps reject it thinking she is not really in the mood?


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## doverfun (Feb 27, 2017)

@Keke24

I'm trying to find the logic of this statement.... 

>> Her masturbating was not the reason you were having less sex however, you having more sex can definitely be attributed to her masturbating less.

Again, not seeing the logic... you are less inclined to masturbate if you are having plenty of sex.. so sex can and does affect your masturbation frequency, but the flip of masturbating frequency doesn't affect sex frequency? Really? So more sex = less M, but more M does not equal less sex.

>>So in as much as I will be much less inclined to masturbate if I'm having plenty sex, it does not mean that masturbating will impact my interest/ability to have sex.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

From what I got from your post was that sex HAD improved between you guys. I'm sorry that it usually had to include alcohol, but I also get it because I'm in the same boat, and enjoy sex a little more with some wine in my system. I thought you guys had decent communication when it comes to sex? Maybe I missed something though. There's also nothing wrong with masturbation, but there is something wrong to force your significant other to masturbate for you. For me, I don't enjoy sex with my H, so masturbation helps relieve my sexual frustration. I also view it as something that is just for me, and if H forced me to do it in front of him, it would take away the enjoyment, and make me incredibly uncomfortable. I also wouldn't have a way to relieve my sexual tension, and would probably fly off the handle. So, yeah, they're connected: sex and masturbation. If both people in a relationship are sexually satisfied, there's less need for self love, but that's not the case when 2 people are not satisfied. Masturbation is by no means a betrayal though.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Keke24 said:


> You're looking at this from a man's perspective. Her masturbating was not the reason you were having less sex...


AGREED! 

While females do have a "resolution phase" after sex, they do NOT have the "refractory period" that men experience. 

After a male experiences orgasm, prolactin is released in his body to counteract testosterone. This is what causes the penis to quickly loose erection after climax and also extinguishes desire for further sexual activity for a period of time. Even if a male manages to binge on sex for a day or two, this effect will be increased after the final climax and may last days while semen production recovers and new sperm motility matures. 

Meanwhile once the female is sexually receptive in her cycle, she does not eject her eggs onto the ceiling during each climax or anything of that nature, she simply remains receptive until she feels loved and satisfied. Or until stress shuts off her sexual desire.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

doverfun said:


> @Keke24
> 
> I'm trying to find the logic of this statement....
> 
> ...


Precisely OP. I wish some more women would chime in here.

It may be difficult to understand because it is very different for men. A woman can have multiple orgasms during sex and keep going at it with little impact on her energy levels but this is not the case for men. Similarly I can masturbate multiple times a day and it will have zero impact on my interest in sex with my partner. My clit will hurt sure but a part from that, there's little aftereffect to suggest I've already been sexually satisfied. Orgasming just does not have the same impact on a female as it does on the male. We'll probably experience the same euphoria and exhaustion in the moment but my recovery time as a woman is significantly lower than for a man.

Does that make sense?


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## doverfun (Feb 27, 2017)

@badsanta I've never rejected any of her advances to please me. I will suggest her pleasing me directly, but if she says no, then i don't worry about it. I know there are certain things she doesn't like to do and I don't dwell on those things. Those certain things she doesn't like to do but she will do when I ask, but i ask infrequently knowing she doesn't like it. 

Part of all of me wanting to improve our sex life is the fact that the kids are getting to the point of being out of the house. My daughter has less than 4 years, but she will start to really lead her own life. My youngest is still 8 years away, but in the grand scheme of things, that's not all that long and will go fast. My goal is two fold. I don't want her and I to look at each other when the kids are grown and decide we don't want to do this any more. I want to strengthen our bond now not later. I've seen too many friends parents part the minute the kids were grown. Additionally, I'm sure it may sound odd, but I want us to be lovers. Yes, i'm the husband and father, and we have sex like a husband does, but I want to move beyond that. I want to move to another level of intimacy with her. I want her to be able to cut loose in the bedroom with me. I want to know her as intimately as she knows herself. I want to pleasure her in ways she didn't even know she liked. I want her to be able to give herself up to her lover so to speak. (probably a tangent, but its related to what i've been working on for years, and is the reason behind the original post).


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## DepressedHusband (Apr 22, 2011)

PM sent


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

doverfun said:


> @badsanta I've never rejected any of her advances to please me. I will suggest her pleasing me directly, but if she says no, then i don't worry about it. I know there are certain things she doesn't like to do and I don't dwell on those things. Those certain things she doesn't like to do but she will do when I ask, but i ask infrequently knowing she doesn't like it.
> 
> Part of all of me wanting to improve our sex life is the fact that the kids are getting to the point of being out of the house. My daughter has less than 4 years, but she will start to really lead her own life. My youngest is still 8 years away, but in the grand scheme of things, that's not all that long and will go fast. *My goal is two fold. I don't want her and I to look at each other when the kids are grown and decide we don't want to do this any more. I want to strengthen our bond now not later. I've seen too many friends parents part the minute the kids were grown. Additionally, I'm sure it may sound odd, but **I want us to be lovers. Yes, i'm the husband and father, and we have sex like a husband does, but I want to move beyond that. I want to move to another level of intimacy with her. I want her to be able to cut loose in the bedroom with me. I want to know her as intimately as she knows herself. I want to pleasure her in ways she didn't even know she liked. I want her to be able to give herself up to her lover so to speak*. (probably a tangent, but its related to what i've been working on for years, and is the reason behind the original post).


Have you TOLD her any of this? Have you TOLD her what *your* "goal" is? 

And, if so, is she _agreeable_ to that "goal" of yours?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

doverfun said:


> @badsanta I've never rejected any of her advances to please me. I will suggest her pleasing me directly, but if *she says no*, then i don't worry about it. I know there are certain things she doesn't like to do and I don't dwell on those things. Those certain things she doesn't like to do but *she will do when I ask*, but i ask infrequently knowing she doesn't like it.



If you suggest her pleasing you, she may say no, but if you ask then she will do it. You do realize that makes no sense!

OK, I assuming you meant perhaps she does not like giving you BJ's during foreplay when she initiates sex as she wants you inside her and not in her mouth. But she is willing to give you BJs during moments she does not want sex. Meanwhile you reject her by hesitating to ask and not allowing her to please you during those moments. Do you go and masturbate instead? (I admit that is a loaded question and not meant to attack you, but instead meant to help you reflect on how there are moments where she may indeed enjoy giving you a BJ, but your self consciousness is not allowing you to ask!)


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Vega said:


> Have you TOLD her any of this? Have you TOLD her what *your* "goal" is?
> 
> And, if so, is she _agreeable_ to that "goal" of yours?


Good point!


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## doverfun (Feb 27, 2017)

@Vega I have certainly communicated my goals to her, and per her response she wants to do the same thing. Of course, I communicated those goals to her over 5 years ago to no avail. I've continued to communicate those goals with no results over those last 5 years. 
@badsanta Honestly, in the last few years, I don't remember a time when has turned me down for sex. I can also say, during those times, I'm not sure she's ever actually initiated sex. bj's are always part of regular sex foreplay. During the 6 week desert run, I had her do a handjob/lingam for first time ever. We've done a few times since. She didn't like it at first, but she has warmed up to the task over these last few weeks. There's never a time when i get satisfied that she doesn't get satisfied. She gets oral when no regular sex.
@Ursula Our communication in general is good. With sex, communication hasn't been good. She always clams up, looks pissed I brought it and has terse answers. I ask her what she likes, how she likes it, does she want to try something new, etc. All the same response. Now, over the last 2 months communication has improved greatly, and we have the results to show for it. Part of the issue after surgery was that, after seeing her on Friday nights, I flat said we are going to have more sex, and she's responded positively. Of course, only now I find out the whole story.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

After I got off active duty, I met a beautiful Red head. 

Sex with her was great "for me". She was really anxious to have sex all the time, but she never talked about it. She would not say "anything" before, during or after" sex. It was a topic that she could not talk about.

I never knew if she enjoyed it as much as I did. I knew that she masturbated often [I caught her many times, but never said anything].

After a while, I softly asked her about this and her face turned redder than her hair.

She was basically, a passionate lady, but mute. Some men would say this is the optimum women. A women who loved sex and never complained about anything.

I broke up with her. Why?

I never knew if she enjoyed sex as much as me. Or "anything" with me. Now, looking back, since she always wanted sex she must have enjoyed it. I was young then. What did I know?

I loved being intimate with her. We pounded that mattress to dust. However, I needed to bounce all my ideas against hers. She never pounded back. I guess I got bored. Shame....

Likely....I intimidated her. Too powerful emotions... from my end.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

THis is what hit me about your post.

' I've always told her that I didn't feel I would ever be that man for her. She just could never let go with me. She always seems to be holding back. With seeing her on those recent Friday nights, I knew there was more in her, but sober, I was never going to turn her on so she would let go. I told her that she needed to find someone else to let go with.'

Her husband, (apparently a church goer as well), tells her to find someone else? To commit adultery? What were you thinking? Telling her that you would never be the man for her? You are married, committed and you say things like this? Even if you didnt really mean it words are so important. This is something that we must never say to our spouse, and I think you need to apologise for that. 

As for the masturbation thing, work with/through it. She isn't looking at porn which is a blessing. It sounds as if you have a good sex life so be thankful, and let her be who she is.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

doverfun said:


> @Vega I have certainly communicated my goals to her, and per her response she wants to do the same thing. Of course, I communicated those goals to her over 5 years ago to no avail. I've continued to communicate those goals with no results over those last 5 years.
> 
> @badsanta Honestly, in the last few years, I don't remember a time when has turned me down for sex. I can also say, during those times, I'm not sure she's ever actually initiated sex. bj's are always part of regular sex foreplay. During the 6 week desert run, I had her do a handjob/lingam for first time ever. We've done a few times since. She didn't like it at first, but she has warmed up to the task over these last few weeks. There's never a time when i get satisfied that she doesn't get satisfied. She gets oral when no regular sex.
> 
> @Ursula Our communication in general is good. With sex, communication hasn't been good. She always clams up, looks pissed I brought it and has terse answers. I ask her what she likes, how she likes it, does she want to try something new, etc. All the same response. Now, over the last 2 months communication has improved greatly, and we have the results to show for it. Part of the issue after surgery was that, after seeing her on Friday nights, I flat said we are going to have more sex, and she's responded positively. Of course, only now I find out the whole story.


I'm sorry OP, but you seem to be all over the map about this situation. 

On one hand, you talk about how there have been "no results". In the next breath, you say that there HAVE been 'results'. So...which is it? 

Look at the words you’re using to describe this situation: “Confess”…”hide”…”betray”…”secrecy”…”lie”. All of those words imply “wrongdoing” on _her_ part. Frankly, you sound more like her _judge_ than her _husband_. 

If you know anything about human sexuality, then the fact that she masturbates should be no surprise. Yet, you're treating this "new knowledge" as something that's almost SHOCKING for you, and you're taking this as a personal _affront_ to you. You're letting your ego get the better of you. That's never a good thing.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

SunCMars said:


> Now, looking back, *since she always wanted sex she must have enjoyed it*.


Umm...you sure about that?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

doverfun said:


> There's never a time when i get satisfied that she doesn't get satisfied.


Perhaps you see that as a positive point, but I see that as one of the likely source of your problems. 

In a healthy relationship there should be times where your wife will tell you just to enjoy yourself and to not worry about her because she is unable to enjoy herself sexually in that moment. If your wife can not or does not tell you that, one of the following things are happening: 

#1 You may be rejecting her and only allowing her to please you during the moments she is also sexually receptive AND you are wanting sex.

#2 You may be forcing her to enjoy herself so that you do not feel guilty of receiving stand alone pleasure from her (perhaps you feel undeserving of that).

#3 She is faking it to help you enjoy yourself and get it over with.

ALL THREE of those reasons would lead to a scenario where she would likely discretely masturbate just so she could give herself pleasure on her own terms. She would likely be hesitant to tell you about this due to the fact that you would wish to intervene and try to be in control of it in some way so that it contributes towards YOUR agenda to ramp up sexual exploration in your marriage.


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## doverfun (Feb 27, 2017)

@Vega For the last 5 years, her words and actions have not lined up. She said she wanted to open up and be more. Did it happen? No. She had no desire to open up and be more. She was happy with her route of 1X a week sex and regular masturbation to satisfy with no concern for where I wanted to go. Only recently, after I see her in action while liquored up and basically say its going to happen and sex frequency is going to increase. We increase frequency and suddenly i'm seeing a new person emerge with regard to sex. Please tell me how SHOULD I interpret/view her actions. Suddenly she has no need to masturbate after the increased frequency? Don't get me wrong. We are in a better place, and this will pass. However, she knew I wanted more in that area, and she was either content with the way things were or was afraid. Content - she was getting her multi week rocks off. Afraid - we live in the same house, married 21 years 3 kids, owned 4 homes with her. She's 45 years old. At some point, maturity needs to happen. Only the last 2 months with my completely pushing the issue with full force do things change. That's not the route I wanted to go, she's my partner. And no I never forced her to do anything. I put out my expectations, and she was good with it.

>>Look at the words you’re using to describe this situation: “Confess”…”hide”…”betray”…”secrecy”…”lie”. All of those words imply “wrongdoing” on her part. Frankly, you sound more like her judge than her husband
@Diana7 Someone or something was in our bedroom. I knew it but couldn't identify the cause. I found no evidence of a EA or PA, and I certainly looked. I told her what I wanted to be. She agreed she wanted the same, but the wall was there. I didn't know how to tear down the wall. Should I have said it? Probably not. When you are at your wits end to identify the elephant in the room, I said it. I was hoping to punch a whole in the wall. At that point, the comment was true. I was never going to be for her what I wanted to be. Someone else was going to have to take up that mantle. Would I have eventually left her? Probably. The thought certainly crossed my mind very recently. I didn't and don't see anything unreasonable about what I wanted with my wife. I wanted to continue to grow all aspects of our relationship. However, when a wall is preventing that growth... where do you go? To me, in hindsight, the masturbation was the elephant in the room. No one seems to agree with me, but the fact that it stopped after our frequency increased... its a pretty straight line.. how is that not cause and effect? She supposedly wanted more, but was getting satisfied solo. If she wants to go back to the way things were, I'm out (I don't think she does). I want more out of life than fighting elephants. At this point, I don't need her in my life, I want her in my life, forever. 

We had a come to Jesus meeting her lack of affection 8 years ago, and i said it wasn't working for me. Either something needed to change or I wanted out. She was devastated I felt this way, but could see how I felt that way. She knew the score. Things changed. Why did they have to get to that point? I've no idea. I'm certainly not perfect and make mistakes.


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## doverfun (Feb 27, 2017)

@badsanta I can only say, she has adamantly avowed over the years she has never faked it. Do I believe her? Probably not. Too much human nature to please your SO. If she tells me she doesn't want to for me to do something to her, but she is willing to do something for me, then I don't push it.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

doverfun said:


> I wanted to continue to grow all aspects of our relationship. However, when a wall is preventing that growth... where do you go? To me, in hindsight, the masturbation was the elephant in the room. No one seems to agree with me, but the fact that it stopped after our frequency increased... its a pretty straight line.. how is that not cause and effect?


 @doverfun because the elephant is STILL in the room, but now just camouflaged a little better!


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

doverfun said:


> @Vega For the last 5 years, her words and actions have not lined up. She said she wanted to open up and be more. Did it happen? No. She had no desire to open up and be more. She was happy with her route of 1X a week sex and regular masturbation to satisfy with no concern for where I wanted to go. Only recently, after I see her in action while liquored up and basically say its going to happen and sex frequency is going to increase. We increase frequency and suddenly i'm seeing a new person emerge with regard to sex. Please tell me how SHOULD I interpret/view her actions. Suddenly she has no need to masturbate after the increased frequency? Don't get me wrong. We are in a better place, and this will pass. However, she knew I wanted more in that area, and she was either content with the way things were or was afraid. Content - she was getting her multi week rocks off. Afraid - we live in the same house, married 21 years 3 kids, owned 4 homes with her. She's 45 years old. At some point, maturity needs to happen. Only the last 2 months with my completely pushing the issue with full force do things change. That's not the route I wanted to go, she's my partner. And no I never forced her to do anything. I put out my expectations, and she was good with it.
> 
> >>Look at the words you’re using to describe this situation: “Confess”…”hide”…”betray”…”secrecy”…”lie”. All of those words imply “wrongdoing” on her part. Frankly, you sound more like her judge than her husband
> 
> ...


As a Christian divorce shouldn't be in you thinking unless there is cheating. You have a good wife and a good sex life it seems yet you still talk of leaving. Be thankful for the 95% you have instead of the 5% you think you don't have.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

doverfun said:


> And before everyone goes crazy with my comment about her fear of telling me. She said that she was brought up that women didn't ask for more sex. She was afraid of what I would think of her. I tried to reassure her that we are married. We are allowed to have sex as much or as little as we want because its just between us. I have always let her know that i've wanted to satisfy her in all aspects of her life. I've always tried to make sure she has everything she wants. She's had issues with showing affection, even to our children, and always has. I know it all stems from her pedigree (stoic German) and upbringing. Her mother was 41 when she was born. One of the reasons we got together in the first place was the fact that I always showed her respect and affection. I still do.
> 
> Her vision is also a big source of her insecurity in general. She's considered statutorily blind by SSA (20/200) and is on disability. As she has RP, she may eventually go completely blind. I know that weighs on her daily. To me her vision or lack thereof is of no consequence. I have always told her that its the quality of life that matters. She's going through training right now for blindness/low vision, and that has been rough on her as well.


I can think of *no other affliction* [than blindness] that would be so hard to live with, to deal with. A horrible outcome to a formerly sighted person. 

She is going to need all your support and trust. She will learn to replace her sight with her other senses. Kind words and frequent, gentle touch......

When her sight is completely gone, yours' will be hers. Be patient. You will be rewarded if you do so.


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## doverfun (Feb 27, 2017)

@Diana7 You are completely correct, and I'm glad you called me out. 

>>As a Christian divorce shouldn't be in you thinking unless there is cheating. You have a good wife and a good sex life it seems yet you still talk of leaving. Be thankful for the 95% you have instead of the 5% you think you don't have.
@SunCMars Well said, and i completely agree. She may never go blind, but there is a strong possibility she will. Her field of vision is very small, no peripheral vision. We've traveled all over US the last several years to see sights she's wanted to see before blindness sets in. 

I've been loading the 401K these last few years in case something happens to me, she'll have enough money to sustain her a good, well cared for standard of living if I'm gone.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

doverfun said:


> @Vega For the last 5 years, her words and actions have not lined up.


And yours are not lining up _now_. 



> She said she wanted to open up and be more. Did it happen? No. She had no desire to open up and be more. She was happy with her route of 1X a week sex and regular masturbation to satisfy with no concern for where I wanted to go. Only recently, after I see her in action while liquored up and basically say its going to happen and sex frequency is going to increase. We increase frequency and suddenly i'm seeing a new person emerge with regard to sex. Please tell me how SHOULD I interpret/view her actions.


So she pretty much "opened up" because you TOLD her to, or else....



> Suddenly she has no need to masturbate after the increased frequency?


Are you SURE about that? 



> Don't get me wrong. We are in a better place, and this will pass. However, she knew I wanted more in that area, and she was either content with the way things were or was afraid. Content - she was getting her multi week rocks off. Afraid - we live in the same house, married 21 years 3 kids, owned 4 homes with her. She's 45 years old.


Did she TELL you any of this or are you only guessing?



> At some point, maturity needs to happen. Only the last 2 months with my completely pushing the issue with full force do things change. That's not the route I wanted to go, she's my partner. And no I never forced her to do anything. I put out my expectations, and she was good with it.


To tell someone in so many words, "either 'put out' or *I'M* out" is not exactly 'mature', either. 



> To me, in hindsight, the masturbation was the elephant in the room. No one seems to agree with me, but the fact that it stopped after our frequency increased...


Are you SURE it stopped? How would you react if you found out that it didn't stop? 



> She supposedly wanted more, but was getting satisfied solo. If she wants to go back to the way things were, I'm out (I don't think she does). I want more out of life than fighting elephants. At this point, I don't need her in my life, I want her in my life, forever.


Once again, you seem to be contradicting yourself. On one hand you say that you have no problem with masturbation. But if things go back to the way they were (with her masturbating), you'd be "out". :scratchhead:


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## doverfun (Feb 27, 2017)

@Vega 

I told her I wanted to try it, and she was ok with that. The results speak for themselves. She's enjoyed it and is now pursuing me more than she ever did before.
>>So she pretty much "opened up" because you TOLD her to, or else....

As I stated previously, she was afraid to tell me she wanted more. Content is my speculation. She had every opportunity to request an increase and chose not to go down that path, for whatever reason. 
>>Did she TELL you any of this or are you only guessing?

So, she's a complete and utter liar now? If it didn't stop, then she should have told me up front. As I stated, my reaction was to her comment stating she stopped doing it when frequency increased, which is the whole reason for writing what I did. Had she not stopped, then her need was different, and that would be fine. Unfortunately, that's not what she said happened.
>>Are you SURE it stopped? How would you react if you found out that it didn't stop?
>>Are you SURE about that? 

Yes, I'd be out with her being closed off again. Masturbating or not. 
>>Once again, you seem to be contradicting yourself. On one hand you say that you have no problem with masturbation. But if things go back to the way they were (with her masturbating), you'd be "out"


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

doverfun said:


> I told her that her stopping masturbating after our increase in frequency was a total betrayal to me. 5 years, i'd been trying to improve things. She said she wanted to have more sex but didn't know how to tell me. WTF? Really? 20 years of marriage? I then tell her it was obvious her masturbation was more important to her than improving our sex life having discovered that only after our increase in frequency caused her masturbation to stop.
> 
> I know and understand the role of masturbation to one's self. I have no problem with her doing it and I expected her to do it at least once in a while.
> 
> Maybe I shouldn't feel this way, but knowing her masturbation stopped was a bit much for me to take.


Your comments that I pasted above stand out to me. You are much too rigid for your own sake. After many years of marriage, your wife still seems to value the importance of a healthy sex life. When she acknowledged that she has at times masturbated about once per week, you blew a great opportunity to praise her for opening up to you. You are hurting your own cause with your over-thinking and drama. Undoing that damage will likely take months. I hope you can learn to enjoy what seems to me like a pretty good wife in this aspect.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

doverfun said:


> @Vega
> 
> As I stated previously, she was afraid to tell me she wanted more. Content is my speculation. *She had every opportunity to request an increase and chose not to go down that path, for whatever reason*.


No, not for "whatever reason". She already told you the reason and the reason was that she was _AFRAID_. What part of that don't you get? It's like you're not accepting her reasons as _valid_, and that is one of biggest mistakes you can make. 

You want her to open up to you, yet others here have pointed out, that if your _reaction_ to whatever she says is for you to dismiss the validity of her fears, then why would she WANT to open up to you? 



> So, she's a complete and utter liar now? If it didn't stop, then she should have told me up front. As I stated, my reaction was to her comment stating she stopped doing it when frequency increased, which is the whole reason for writing what I did. Had she not stopped, then her need was different, and that would be fine. Unfortunately, that's not what she said happened.
> >>Are you SURE it stopped? How would you react if you found out that it didn't stop?
> >>Are you SURE about that?


Never said she's a "liar", but it's clear that you don't trust her. After all, you said that you suspect that she's not telling you the truth about whether or not she ever faked it with you. If she DID "confess" to you that she faked it a few times over the years, would you hold THAT against her too? Tell her (and us) that she "betrayed" you and lied to you? 

I get the feeling that your wife may simply be afraid to say 'no' to you, for any reason. 



> Again, not seeing the logic... you are less inclined to masturbate if you are having plenty of sex.. so sex can and does affect your masturbation frequency, but the flip of masturbating frequency doesn't affect sex frequency? Really?* So more sex = less M, but more M does not equal less sex.*


Whether or not you understand the "logic" of this is irrelevant. What matters is the _truth_ behind it, which you don't seem to get. 

In your 20+ year marriage, did YOU ever masturbate? Did you ALWAYS tell her when and if you did at the time you did it?

You've got plenty of people on this thread pretty much telling you that you overreacted. You even admitted as much. Yet, you continue to try and 'justify' yourself and act as if what your wife did was so HORRIBLE, especially since you already suspected that she did. 

Doesn't make sense.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Dear Doverfun;

You are talking about your wife, the mother of your children. There is NOTHING that she or you should be afraid to tell each other. Sadly, most people can't handle that level of intimacy. Look yourself in the mirror and ask if you want to be a full part of your wife's sex life or you want her to keep sexual secrets and desires (masturbation) from you. Wouldn't your relationship be better if she were not ashamed or kept hidden from her husband part of "her sexuality?" 

You are not being betrayed by her. In fact she shared facts with you that she probably would not tell another soul. If I were in your shoes, I would apologize to her and tell her you appreciate her sharing information with you. In fact I would ask her if she would masturbate some weekend morning for you, while you held her in your arms and told her how much you loved her. Tell her that you love her sexuality in all of its forms.

Good luck. I think you have created a "problem" that really doesn't need to be a problem.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I agree with the overthinking and drama assessment. I'll be honest, just the tone of your writing makes me feel like I'd shut down if I were your wife. It sounds like you kind of badger her about this. If the open communication isn't happening naturally, forcing it isn't going to help.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Young at Heart said:


> Dear Doverfun;
> 
> You are talking about your wife, the mother of your children. There is NOTHING that she or you should be afraid to tell each other. Sadly, most people can't handle that level of intimacy. Look yourself in the mirror and ask if you want to be a full part of your wife's sex life or you want her to keep sexual secrets and desires (masturbation) from you. Wouldn't your relationship be better if she were not ashamed or kept hidden from her husband part of "her sexuality?"
> 
> ...


I disagree with the asking her to masturbate in front of you. If she wanted to do that, she would suggest it.


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## doverfun (Feb 27, 2017)

@Vega

The truth? Her masturbating stopped once the frequency increased. Maybe in your situation your truth is truth, but what actually happened here doesn't match your situation. Or are you unwilling to acknowledge that what happened here is true? Its not possible she stopped M once frequency increased?
>> What matters is the truth behind it, which you don't seem to get. 

You're right, I do know the reasons she didn't tell me. As to their validity, I'm sure in her own mind her reasons were valid. To me, they weren't valid. Difference of opinion, yep. We aren't in high school any more. She's a grown adult. We've been married at the time 16 years. The last 5 years I've constantly asked what we could to make it better.. increase/new things/what??. Her response.. crickets. To know the last 2 months could have started 5 years ago with a simple, "I'd like to have more sex" from her. I'm sure in the end its not that simple, but over complicating or excusing it away doesn't work for me either.
>>No, not for "whatever reason". She already told you the reason and the reason was that she was AFRAID. What part of that don't you get? It's like you're not accepting her reasons as valid, and that is one of biggest mistakes you can make. 

From the previous week, of telling me 'you know everything about me', to finding out her other activities the following week, now, again, she says I know everything about her. Trust shaken, yes a little. If she did or didn't fake it, only she knows, its irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. 
>>Never said she's a "liar", but it's clear that you don't trust her. After all, you said that you suspect that she's not telling you the truth about whether or not she ever faked it with you.

I have, but haven't for many many years to focus on her. Did I tell her, no, we were knee deep in little kids at the time. Again, the issue isn't that she did M, but the fact that it stopped once the frequency increased. THAT is the issue. Things between us have been completely different in that area once the frequency increased. We are much more into each other now than we were before. She's opening up like I wanted years ago.
>>In your 20+ year marriage, did YOU ever masturbate? Did you ALWAYS tell her when and if you did at the time you did it?
@Steve1000
As to M, I was happy to hear she was doing it, and told her so. It showed she has interest in herself. I told her as much. Personally, I do think it has helped her with some of her issues. I've absolutely no doubt about that. But again, her M isn't the issue that ticked me off. 
>>When she acknowledged that she has at times masturbated about once per week, you blew a great opportunity to praise her for opening up to you.

In the end, I just need to quit thinking about it. We are on the right track now. I was just ticked about the wasted 5 years waiting to get to this point.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

I've actually encouraged my wife to masturbate, and I've told her I don't care if she does it in private or in front of me. I've always looked at it as something you can do in private to figure out what works for you, especially with the fact she is a woman and needs to know. It took her at least 6 to 7 years before she would even touch herself in front of me, and she swears she has never masturbated solo. I know it's a hard thing to believe, but I have no evidence to the contrary, and wouldn't really care if I did because it truly doesn't have anything to do with me and doesn't affect me in the least. I would actually find it a good thing. It would tell me that she actually does get horny at times without me having to get her there.

My suggestion would be to just let it go. Apologize to her (yes, apologize to her!) for your being so judgmental. The fact that she has masturbated has nothing to do with you. The frequency of sex has more to do with the level of communication between the two of you than it does with the fact she has masturbated. It appears she is afraid to open up to you because of your propensity to judge her. Stop that.  That not only builds resentment, but it also makes it extremely difficult to have any kind of truly open communication. It counterproductive to what you are trying to do to make things "better" in your relationship. If you continue to be angry, resentful, and judgmental, why wouldn't she want to get a "release" on her own on occasion? She doesn't have to deal with that kind of negativity when she's by herself. Sex should be a totally positive experience without fear of judgment.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

doverfun said:


> @
> 
> [MENTION=104145]Steve1000
> In the end, I just need to quit thinking about it. We are on the right track now. I was just ticked about the wasted 5 years waiting to get to this point.


I can understand the frustration about why this couldn't happen earlier. However, I always say "Late is better than never". I'm glad to hear things are still hopeful for you. I suggest that you always praise her when she tries to be open and when she brings up an idea about sex (even if the idea doesn't sound like a very helpful idea).


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Livvie said:


> I disagree with the asking her to masturbate in front of you. If she wanted to do that, she would suggest it.


The sex therapist that helped my wife and me suggested this as a way to hold, support and encourage your partner so that the "shame" and hiding of masturbation can be banished, so that you can feel that your spouse is a person you can tell and do anything in front of and they will still be supportive and loving.

Yes, he does seem to be a little to "pushy" so maybe you are right.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Always thank your wife for sharing her truth with you, even when you are not thrilled with the content of her message. Because you should always be thankful that she feels able to share with you. When a woman stops sharing her inner thoughts, the relationship is dying.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Dover,

If you want her to be honest, you will need to learn to say: Thank you for telling me that .... when she tells you stuff 

And AVOID saying: Why didn't you tell me that before now?

Because I think that she was afraid to speak up until now. Maybe afraid you would leave her, just as her sight is leaving her. 

Alone - in the growing darkness. 





doverfun said:


> @Vega
> 
> The truth? Her masturbating stopped once the frequency increased. Maybe in your situation your truth is truth, but what actually happened here doesn't match your situation. Or are you unwilling to acknowledge that what happened here is true? Its not possible she stopped M once frequency increased?
> >> What matters is the truth behind it, which you don't seem to get.
> ...


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## doverfun (Feb 27, 2017)

I know this post is old, and abandoned, there have been some events I feel should be shared. Recent events certainly brought closure. For those of you old enough to remember, I can finally share the 'rest of the story'. 

As many of you may or may not have read through the previous posts, understanding my wife's bedroom actions when tipsy and not tipsy has been a study in contrasts. 

A bit of an interlude background after my last post, but prior to last weeks disclosure, and impact-ful to the 'rest of the story', after 21 years of marriage, we were trying new things in the bedroom. One of those things was going to be anal sex. From my research into starting down this path, the advice was to start slow over a period of time, getting her used to having things there. During one of these sessions, I noticed her reaction to what was going on. I'm an analyst by trade, and having previously been a salesman for years, have always studied how folks react. Well, her reaction was not one I expected. From what she's shared about her past, an old boyfriend tried it 'once' and that was it. Her reaction indicated it certainly happened more than once, as she certainly appeared to be used to things being there. 

The next day I asked why hadn't she told me she'd done anal before when she'd disclosed her previous history. She denied that she'd ever done it more than the one time. Needless to say, I didn't buy her story because things have to make sense, and her reaction to events weren't making sense to me. She was far more comfortable with something she'd 'done once' than what i was expecting. I let the matter drop because it was obvious she wasn't going to tell me the whole story at that moment. 

Since that weekend, we've done what we've practiced. For her its uncomfortable at first, but she definitely enjoys it after a bit, and now as has made the big O during, consistently over the last 2 months when we've done it. Don't knock it until try it, just sayin. Just go slow with lots of lube. 

Fast forward to last weekend. She and I went to some friends house for a party. She had more to drink than I did, and when we got home, I asked her why the woman in bed after a few drinks is different than the woman without drinks. She contended that she was getting better, which is true to some degree, but not entirely. I then pushed forward in the conversation and asked her what she still wasn't telling me. I brought up the anal conversation, and asked what else was there. This was my 'ask for the close moment'. I shut-up and didn't say another word. After some hems and haws from my wife, the rest of the story certainly made an appearance.

My wife finally, after 21 years of marriage, let me know that her first boyfriend from 30 years ago, used her devotion and love for him to let him use her orally, anally and PIV each weekend for 6 months in the back of his car. I asked her about the anal, and if he used lube, and she said no. (if you've done it, then know why its important). Needless to say, suddenly, everything clicked into place. All of the years of her not wanting to talk about sex or make things better between us all had to do with her not wanting to disclose her old boyfriend, basically raped a young, naive 16 year old girl into doing things she didn't want to do, much before she was ready to do them, because she was in love and he was a complete manipulator. (deep breath)

My reaction. I was pissed. At that moment, had he and I been in a dark alley, I'm not sure both of us would have come out alive. 

All the years of her visceral hatred of him made sense now. All of the years of her not wanting to talk about things made sense now.

After further discussion, she also let me know that after they broke up, she made his life hell for the next 2 years, to the point he graduated mid term senior year and left the high school (it was small high school). She kept telling me how she was a bad person for what she did while with him and what she did to him after the fact. We had further intense discussions that night, but eventually made love, and I held her until we fell asleep. 

The next day, I was ticked off at her about not telling me all of these years, and lying to me about her history. We had it out about her lying to me about it after all of these years. She tried to bring up my previous girlfriends, but I pointed out that those previous girlfriends weren't affecting my life 25+ years after the fact like her boyfriend was. The years he cost me not the relationship I wanted with my wife, yeah, not happy. However, later that night, we did make up, and we've not talked about it since. Its water under the bridge. She's my wife and I continue to want her to be my wife. 

Finally, I've made it clear to her that she is not a bad person for what she allowed him to do to her nor what she did to him after the fact. After some research on this topic, I've asked her to write a letter to him, letting him know where she is at in her life and that she forgives him, and herself for what has happened in the past. I told her she may or may not send it, but I wasn't going to read it. She hasn't done it as yet, and I'm not going to push it. I did tell her that she has to deal with this at some level. She said she did feel much better knowing that I now know what happened. Its only been a week, but she is certainly more relaxed around the topic of sex when discussed.

From the original post's topic to now (6 months), I've finally learned about my wife's sexual history, and why she has been the way she's been. I'm just glad its all behind us now. 

Thanks to all for replying.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Keke24 said:


> @doverfun honestly, I don't think the masturbation had much impact on your sex life (frequency). The orgasm experience for women doesn't quite work the way it does for men. A man who masturbates to orgasm likely will not be able to or be as interested in sex on the same day but in my experience this is different in women.
> 
> I could masturbate multiple times a day and I will still be just as horny for my partner when he gets home. So although I will be more satisfied masturbating in the absence of sex, it will have little impact on my sex drive. So in as much as I will be much less inclined to masturbate if I'm having plenty sex, it does not mean that masturbating will impact my interest/ability to have sex.
> 
> So this betrayal thing may be applied to a man who masturbates and as a result is less inclined to have sex but I'm not so sure this applies to women. You're looking at this from a man's perspective. Her masturbating was not the reason you were having less sex however, you having more sex can definitely be attributed to her masturbating less.


*I don't see betrayal in her masturbating any more than I would see it in your act of the same. Self-pleasuring only helps us to possibly expand our horizons sexually and gives us ideas about what me might possibly want when we're with our partner. 

It's a whole lot like playing a piano solo and then offering to perfect it to whenever we're with our partner to playing a "sexual" duet!

IMHO, if you're really wanting to worry, I think that you could find more worthwhile things to fret about! Her masterbation and self-exploratory time alone just ain't one of them!

The alcohol itself, however, could be an issue because while the marginal and occasional use of it is good to start the proceedings, using it continuously to have sex can be a problem, in and of itself!

Some of the best sex in the world is that that is not induced by alcohol usage!*


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

You cant call 2 teenagers having regular consensual sex rape.


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## NickTheChemist (Apr 26, 2017)

Dude. Way too far. You're out of bounds and I'm throwing a flag on this play for a personal foul.

It is to your advantige that she flicks it on her own. You can't look at her sexuality in the same way ours is (as men). You should steer into the curve here and encourage this sexual awakening in her and THAT could lead to more sex. 

Shaming her and being a manipulative bully is bad from every angle and I feel bad for her after reading the way you've handled this. 

Step back and imagine how she feels.


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## leon2100 (May 13, 2015)

Different strokes for different folks (pardon the bun) For the first few years of our marriage, my wife seldom had an orgasm. Then I bought a few toys and over the years she has settled in on an electric back massager she uses on her clit, while we are having sex. Does she use it when I’m not around? Don’t think so! 

She will begin using it before I enter her, but will stop short of her first orgasms until I enter her. Then she may have as many as 6 - 8 in a short period of time. Now the only time she will masturbate without me inside her is if I’m masturbating alongside her. Laying on a blanket in front of the fireplace with all that buzzing going on can really be a turn-on. (oops.. a story for another time)

just saying, “we all have to do what gets through the dark of the night.”


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

doverfun said:


> I know this post is old, and abandoned, there have been some events I feel should be shared. Recent events certainly brought closure. For those of you old enough to remember, I can finally share the 'rest of the story'.
> 
> As many of you may or may not have read through the previous posts, understanding my wife's bedroom actions when tipsy and not tipsy has been a study in contrasts.
> 
> ...



I've read through most of this thread and I'd like you to take a deep breath before you read forward...









You're a bully.

You push and you push and when you finally bully your wife into opening up you use the disclosures against her. 

You're a bully.
You think all of this is all about you and you haven't stopped to consider how deeply shame affects a person. Your wife has had her sexuality warped into something she feels deep shame about. And when she finally is able to confide inyou, you become angry and blame her for not confiding sooner. 

You're a bully.
If you want your wife to confide in you and be open with you, you need to be worthy of that trust and you sir are not.

Leave your poor wife alone and let her come to terms with her sexuality with you beating her up for not flaying the wound open to lay at your feet. 

She doesn't owe you disclosure!
She doesn't owe anyone disclosure!
She will talk to you about thing only when she is ready.

And if you continue to bully and guilt and manipulate her into confiding in you, you are absolutely no better than the piece of **** boyfriend from 30 years ago. So back the **** off!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

The idea of your wife writing such a letter is very premature. Her sending it would be an absolutely disaster after that sinks in.

Why are you telling her to write a letter that includes telling someone who treated her badly that she forgives them? She has to work towards any forgiveness she might be able to reach. She is clearly greatly traumatized by what happened. Her telling you about it does really move her to the point of forgiveness.

Instead, if she wants to deal with this she needs to get counseling with a therapist who specializes with victims of sexual abuse. Only after she has had the help of a professional in this area should she even consider writing such a letter.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Anon Pink said:


> I've read through most of this thread and I'd like you to take a deep breath before you read forward...
> <snip>


I couldn't agree more.

As I was reading through the update, I started to see some of myself from a few years ago in there. Right down to almost exactly the same scenario in regards to his wife and a past boyfriend.

My wife feels shame about her past sexual life, too. The older I get, the more I realize that MANY women do.

At one point in our marriage, I thought it was my job to fix this, alleviate the shame and/or guilt, make her feel comfortable with herself and her past, primarily by talking about it (to me, or to somebody else). It's not. It's SO not.

And, like the OP, it has affected how she is in the present, with me, in this marriage. It's difficult to reconcile in my head - that a person, or people, from our wive's pasts have affected how they are in the present, with us. That we get the so-called 'short end of the stick' because of some d-bag from 10, 20 or 30 years ago. But that's life. It really is.

Like the OP's story about anal sex with his wife - same thing here, to a "T". My wife also said she had only done it "once". It was fairly obvious that was not the case. Difference is, I didn't say anything.

I think it's silly that she'd lie about that, but I also don't know the whole story and I'm not entitled to. My wife is fine with anal sex, there's no aversion to it. She can orgasm from it, and she has occasionally asked for it, but it's also not in the regular 'rotation', either. I think she would have just been embarrassed to tell her husband that she's had anal sex numerous times, or even regularly, in her past.

OP, you have to back off your wife, man.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

shooting yourself in the foot by being disappointed that she jills off sometimes shes finialy opening up to you and act like a jerk. 

back off and enjoy


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> I've read through most of this thread and I'd like you to take a deep breath before you read forward...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not so sure hes a bully hes frustrated because he has tried his whole marriage to get her to open up and she basically lied to his face. isnt trust what a marriage should be based on. 


But I do agree theres nothing to do about it except accept it and be cool that she opening up now.


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## _anonymous_ (Apr 18, 2016)

OP, I think your tactics have been completely counterproductive to your ultimate goal: improving your sex life. 

Communication will be crucial for your sex life to improve, but you're NOT motivating your wife to communicate further by getting angry over what she says, not taking her words at "face value", and insisting on your point-of-view vs. hers.

Improvement is in the future, but you're caught in the past, committed to feeling betrayed by your wife's masturbation. Reality is that her masturbation is often complementary to sex, and not always a substitute for sex. Change your perspective. 

Don't try to stop your wife from masturbating. Instead, aim for your wife's understanding that she never has to substitute masturbation for sex, because you are there to meet her needs, whenever they arise. 

Beyond that, your wife must want to go to you for sex vs. wanting to take care of matters herself. To this end, you must be approachable--not angry, cynical, or narrow-sighted. If you could alter your wife's perceptions of you by changing your attitude, this problem would likely resolve on it's own, IMHO. 

But in the end, it's her choice to masturbate or to have sex. Respect that. All you can really do is be available for her, and willing to learn about what she wants and to please her. Ultimately her decision though. Good luck!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> You cant call 2 teenagers having regular consensual sex rape.


Actually, you can here in the US. It's called statutory rape and we have these laws because children can't consent to sex, therefore having sex with a child is always rape.

But the benefit of OP, should he come back: you saw immediately how the dynamic between your wife and her boyfriend 30 years ago was imbalanced by his manipulation and her lack of insight or maturity. The boyfriend bullied her into consenting because it what what he wanted and he didn't consider what SHE wanted. Does this sound familiar?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

doverfun said:


> @Keke24
> 
> I'm trying to find the logic of this statement....
> 
> ...


The more women orgasm, the more they want sex. So her masturbating to the point of roaming leads her to want more sex with you.

The sexually of men and women are, in many ways, opposite. For men, it takes time for a man to be able to have sex after he ejaculates.

When you two were not having as much sex, her masturbating is probably what kept in wanting to have sex with you.

Your wife has finally opened up to you as you claim you have wanted her to do. But instead of accepting her opening up to you, you have shown her anger and shamed her. You have proved to her that what she was taught growing up is right. You have proven that if a woman opens up about sex this is want will happen to her.

You owe your wife an apology. I hope your reaction has to permanently shut her down on this topic.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Anon Pink said:


> Actually, you can here in the US. It's called statutory rape and we have these laws because children can't consent to sex, therefore having sex with a child is always rape.
> 
> But the benefit of OP, should he come back: you saw immediately how the dynamic between your wife and her boyfriend 30 years ago was imbalanced by his manipulation and her lack of insight or maturity. The boyfriend bullied her into consenting because it what what he wanted and he didn't consider what SHE wanted. Does this sound familiar?


It's a very tricky thing, statutory rape. As I understand it (here in Canada) it depends very much on the exact ages of the people involved. Two 16 year olds, for example, engaging in consensual sex - no real issue. Like any other age group, including adults, however, consent can be tricky.

I can give two prime examples, which I'll try to keep short - one, my ex wife, when she was about 15 or so, used to receive rides home from a co-worker who was 16, maybe 17 at the time. So, similar in ages, both minors, etc. One day, he pulled off into a parking lot somewhere, turned off the car, pulled out a condom and handed it to her. They had sex, she (her words) never said "no", but she didn't want to. He had a girlfriend (who also worked at this same place, and who she knew) and she had no interest in him in this way. She had a hard time with this, obviously, because she never said no, she could have, he didn't force himself upon her, nor did she feel that he would have. But it was still pressure.

Second - I was pressured/forced into having sex with a girl when I was 17. I could have said no (I did, actually) but she told me she would tell people we did anyway, and that it was my idea, if I did not. There was nobody around to corroborate any of this, and had I not complied, the possibility existed that she would have followed through with her threat, and I would have been in BIG trouble, and possibly have had my entire life ruined. Faced with that possibility (however unlikely, it was probably just a threat) I complied. She had her way with me, literally, and I didn't tell a soul about it afterwards.

Both of those scenarios are similar in many ways. By the letter of the law, I was raped. That kind of thing happening to a woman would result in many bad things happening to the man who did that, both legally and personally. Because the genders were reversed, it was unlikely that I would have been taken seriously, especially by my friends and peers.

What happened to my ex wife was date rape. However, she did not say "no", allowed it to happen, did not enjoy it, and never received a ride home (or spoke to) that guy ever again. And even though she was sure he would not have forced himself upon her, it was in the back of her mind. Whether that guy realized it or not, he put her in the position where she felt that it was implied that he was going to do this the easy way, or the hard way. She chose to not find out if it was going to be the latter - which, I think, happens far more than we realize with young women (and men, for that matter).

Here in Canada, the legal age to have sex is 14 - provided the other person is under 18. And I believe that if one person is 18 or over, the other has to be at least 16. There has to be an ambiguity in the law, and there is. My first real girlfriend was 14, and I had just turned 16. We dated for 3 years, til I was 19 and a couple of months and she 17, closer to 18. But still, I had been an adult for a year and a bit while she was still a minor. Had she suddenly decided to cry statutory rape, it would have been dismissed, because we had been together since we were both minors. Had it been a ONS or something, it may have been investigated more thoroughly.


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## xitinglife (Jun 25, 2017)

doverfun said:


> My wife and i have been married for 21 years, 3 kids (15,12,9 yrs old). I'm 46, my wife is 45. Both in good health. My wife has been legally blind since 2008. We are both very devoted to each other and have a normal marriage. My wife has had some female issues (bleeding), and had a partial hysterectomy in Nov 2015.
> 
> Our sex life has been never been great, but what i would call good. 1x week with occasionally 2x a week. We normally both reach orgasm and I have always tried to make sure she enjoyed it. 5 or 6 years ago I told her i wanted to improve that aspect of our marriage. I just wanted more passion and trying new things to see what we would like/not like. We tried basic toys, positions, but every time I tried to get my wife to tell me what she did/didn't like she would not be very responsive and evasive. I've been working on improving things for many years to say the least. My wife was raised to be very private about sex, and has never opened up to me about sex.
> 
> ...


The alcohol. Nothing wrong with that (other than alcoholism, which I don't think is your case). We are not as far along as you are (married for 10 years, two kids 8 and 5), but to us Friday and Saturday nights are holy: bottle of wine, I cook dinner, wife sets the table, shows the kids to their room and puts on a movie for them, and we play it by ear from then on (sometimes we both fall asleep on the couch, at other times we end up having wild sex). Anyway, as far as I know, many families with kids have similar arrangements.

Reservations. My wife in many ways fits your description of your wife: reserved, shy, goes to church on Sundays. She manages to create an impression of a simple woman (as far as her psychological organization), but every so often surprises (and impresses) me with something I never knew about her -- and she manages to do that somehow intuitively at times when I feel I know everything about her. *Guess what? That is normal.* How many "skeletons" do you have in your closet? Exactly. How many of those you would not feel comfortable casually revealing to your wife over dinner? Exactly. And these "revelations" of hers are hardly skeletons (and believe me, she, like most normal people, has plenty of those, *some of which you may or may not ever know about, and that is totally cool*).

Interrogations. Stop with those. Now. Speaking of skeletons and being impressed with how much you might not know about your wife: in my case, most of the time I try to look at it positively (after all, isn't it fun to discover something new about the person who is as much part of you as you are of them?) However, a couple of times I found myself shocked (for example, look at my thread "Wife's fantasies make me wonder"). *Nevertheless, you should avoid interrogations as much as possible.* She has to be comfortable with telling you, and only tell you when she wants to tell you. Otherwise, you're risking two things: *(1) she will simply not tell you, or, worse, (2) she will tell you, but not the truth.* Returning to "skeletons" and your wife being a part of you and you a part of her (which is how I view it given how convinced you seem of your love for her and, presumably, vice versa): how often do you prosecute yourself for thoughts that you may have that do not fit the normal reality of your life? I know I have those thoughts. I don't prosecute myself for them. So if my wife had similar thoughts or fantasies, why would I prosecute her??? *Why would that mean that she loves me any less, or that she would act on those thoughts?* But this I do know: if she knew that I would prosecute her, she would either not tell me, or, as I said above, she'd tell me lies. I don't want that! I had made a few of those mistakes earlier on in our marriage, and don't want to repeat them. Now, from your original post, I can tell you this: *you seriously do come across as a prosecutor, and the prosecutor in you is driven by some deeply seeded insecurities*. You seem ready to pounce on her. You dig, and you dig, and you dig with your questions. *For instance, you say your wife told you that she only thinks of you when she uses her vibrator. Why in the world would she say that, unless you asked her?? If you asked her, that's a mistake. It shows your insecurity (which is an entirely different matter, and you should work on that), and she obviously is aware of your insecurities. If you didn't, that means she is so ready to bend her story to fit your mindset and not exploit your insecurities, that she tells you what you want to hear before you even ask! Stop it. * Even if she doesn't think about you while using her vibrator -- what the hell is the big deal, provided that she is devoted to you otherwise? It is normal for humans to have sexual fantasies. Which leads me to the next topic. 

Shame. Her shame seems to be deeply seeded in the fact that she doesn't accept her sexuality as part of her, but tries to depart from it. I suspect this is also the reason she clearly separates the intimacy that she has with you and, well, her encounters with the vibrator (in fact the two are different, but more on that below). She seems clear on that. You see, you are not a vibrator. You are a living, breathing person, and, for the third time - _a part of her_ How can she explore her inner desires (however wild, basic, animalistic) with you when she rejects parts of her sexuality? Furthermore, certain desires can only be satisfied privately, and that is totally normal! With the vibrator she is able to depart from her own self. Women are deeply sexual beings (perhaps even more so than men). Their sexuality is tied directly to their emotions and their place in the society (unlike men, for whom most of the time sex is a purely mechanical instinctual activity). Furthermore, women are much more receptive to social paradigms than men. For example, until relatively recently (read late '70s) it was strongly believed that females do not fantasize about sex. So much so, that women themselves reported to have never done it. Those women who displayed sexual openness were not favored by the family-oriented society, both in the east and in the west. Social oppression of females in many eastern societies, for example, is rooted in sexual oppression (and the false belief that has only hardened through generations, that, again, women are not sexual beings but serve only as incubators and caregivers). *So what you're observing in your wife is inner oppression based on rejection of her own sexuality as something shameful (coupled with her awareness of your insecurities, discussed above, which perhaps in her mind are not viewed as your insecurities but as her flaws). *

In conclusion, your wife needs help, and so do you. The feedback loop that exists between the two of you seems to only reinforce what both of you are suffering from. You can start helping each other by simply talking, having first accepted two things: *(1) your wife has the right to privacy, and should be accepting of her own sexuality without shame or fear of being rejected by you (remember, she asked you whether you were going to leave her -- where the heck do you think that came from??)*, and *(2) you have to believe your wife when she tells you she is devoted to you, but at the same time she needs to understand that you too have certain fears and insecurities that she can soothe by being more open with you (but for this she, again, has to be sure that you won't reject her).* 

Good luck!


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

May want to read this link for a possible understanding of what your wife is feeling.

https://forgivenwife.com/unbearable-lessons/


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Doverfun,

You are lucky to have gotten such an admission, most men never discover the fears and barriers which hold their wives back from giving themselves fully to them. They get a taste of unconditional love early on in their relationship but it vanishes gradually and they try for years and years to get it back. They sense something is there but it's confusing to put together the fragmentary evidence. 

Tamat


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Just need to say this to all men:

Never ask your wife what she thinks about when she masturbates because you don't want to know. She may tell you a little bit, enough to satisfy your curiosity or soothe your insecurity but only the very very rare relationship has created the kind of emotional safety into which she can be her ruthlessly honest self.

98% can't handle the truth. 1.5% of you are married to women who are asexual. 0.5% are the rarity in which her dirty mind can be honest to a man strong enough to hear it.

@TAMAT

There is no such thing as unconditional love between spouses.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

TAMAT said:


> Doverfun,
> 
> You are lucky to have gotten such an admission, most men never discover the fears and barriers which hold their wives back from giving themselves fully to them. They get a taste of unconditional love early on in their relationship but it vanishes gradually and they try for years and years to get it back. They sense something is there but it's confusing to put together the fragmentary evidence.
> 
> Tamat



Indeed!
This is a level of disclosure few marriages achieve, no matter how long they last. I know you are upset (understandably so), that she was having sex with herself when you would have rather her be having it with you, but this is an incredibly personal thing and it took real guts to share it with you. I suspect you have no real concept of just how private this was and the vulnerability exposed by fessing up. You are indeed a lucky man, sir.

What's more, she has reached a point where she's ready and willing to shift the balance from more alone time to more together time, sexually speaking. You are poised to reap benefits most men dream of. The past is the past. Water under the bridge, dude, let it flow and start anew. 

Your primary job now is to make her feel comfortable with herself, with her decision to share her most intimate self, and your love and appreciation for her. 

Your horizons are opening; your sun is rising, you'd be a fool to dwell on the night that preceded this new dawn!


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Anon Pink said:


> Just need to say this to all men:
> 
> Never ask your wife what she thinks about when she masturbates because you don't want to know. She may tell you a little bit, enough to satisfy your curiosity or soothe your insecurity but only the very very rare relationship has created the kind of emotional safety into which she can be her ruthlessly honest self.
> 
> ...


You mean she's NOT thinking about me???? :surprise:


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## Ghost Rider (Mar 6, 2017)

doverfun said:


> My wife and i have been married for 21 years, 3 kids (15,12,9 yrs old). I'm 46, my wife is 45. Both in good health. My wife has been legally blind since 2008. We are both very devoted to each other and have a normal marriage. My wife has had some female issues (bleeding), and had a partial hysterectomy in Nov 2015.
> 
> Our sex life has been never been great, but what i would call good. 1x week with occasionally 2x a week. We normally both reach orgasm and I have always tried to make sure she enjoyed it. 5 or 6 years ago I told her i wanted to improve that aspect of our marriage. I just wanted more passion and trying new things to see what we would like/not like. We tried basic toys, positions, but every time I tried to get my wife to tell me what she did/didn't like she would not be very responsive and evasive. I've been working on improving things for many years to say the least. My wife was raised to be very private about sex, and has never opened up to me about sex.
> 
> ...


Actually I kind of feel sorry for your wife because it seems like you view marriage as nothing more than sex. Do you ever let her come up for air? It seems like she goes to great lengths to keep you satisfied. You should appreciate it instead of being so petty.

She was probably defensive and scared because she anticipated exactly the petty reaction that you are having.

Also, I would imagine that a real betrayed spouse would have a hard time sympathizing with your feelings of "betrayal". 

Please cope with this on your own and leave your poor wife alone. Don't poison a good marriage with your pettiness.


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## Ghost Rider (Mar 6, 2017)

Doverfun: The more I read your posts, including your July "update", the more I think you are a lunatic and feel sorry for your poor wife. You are and have been abusing her. You may have a personality disorder, borderline maybe? Please seek counseling and lay off your wife.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

alexm said:


> You mean she's NOT thinking about me???? :surprise:


There have been threads about what women fantasize about during masturbation and for the most part it's not their husband.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Anon Pink said:


> There have been threads about what women fantasize about during masturbation and for the most part it's not their husband.


I wonder if there's a significant difference between the sexes and if/how often they think of someone other than their spouse while masturbating. I'm sure somebody's done a study/survey

I, for one (a man) find my wife to be quite adequate in that area. But then, that's kind of a backhanded compliment. If she was willing to do everything and had fulfilled all my fantasies, then I might be more inclined to branch out to expand fantasyland. But since there are things she won't/doesn't do, that makes for all the fantasy fodder I need.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Anon Pink said:


> There have been threads about what women fantasize about during masturbation and for the most part it's not their husband.


That was sarcasm!

I love my wife, I think she's hot. I don't (always) think of her when I'm by myself...

Something funny for you - I have actually asked her AND my ex wife what they thought of while masturbating. Both gave the same hilarious answer: faceless people, nobodies. What are the odds? :wink2:


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

alexm said:


> That was sarcasm!
> 
> I love my wife, I think she's hot. I don't (always) think of her when I'm by myself...
> 
> Something funny for you - I have actually asked her AND my ex wife what they thought of while masturbating. Both gave the same hilarious answer: faceless people, nobodies. What are the odds? :wink2:


Interesting. My wife said the same thing. 

Either it's legit ... or there's some sort of secret society where women compare notes and share what to say so as not to damage the fragile egos of their husbands!

Although faceless, I understand he's usually well dressed though...


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> May want to read this link for a possible understanding of what your wife is feeling.
> 
> https://forgivenwife.com/unbearable-lessons/


I've seen this before and cannot "like" it enough for I find it to be chillingly accurate. 

When I read the account of the OP who finally got "answers" from his wife, my first reaction was visceral anger at how he handled it. I think Anon Pink summed those feelings up well in her post about being a bully. 

Second came the thought of - doesn't every single woman on earth have these types of skeletons hanging around? I honestly dont know a single woman that has not had a similar experience with men during their formative years. I wouldn't go as far as to say we were all raped, but certainly lines were blurred and boundaries were crossed sexually in the pasts of every single woman I know including myself. We all participated in things that were later a source of regret and shame, even if we told ourselves we were willing participants at the time or that we deserved what happened to us for one reason or another. 

There are plenty of those skeletons that I don't talk about with anyone, including my husband, because it does not seem productive to do so and it is painful to relive some of those memories. If he pressured me to the point that the OP did and reacted with anger once he got what he wanted, I would be horrified! 

Isn't everyone a sum total of their life's experiences? We are all shaped by what happens in our pasts - good or bad. It seems ridiculous to get angry at someone for that fact or to feel like you somehow got short changed just because your wife does have a past. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> I've read through most of this thread and I'd like you to take a deep breath before you read forward...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is right. You need to practice more grace. Your wife sinned yes, she didn't sin against YOU. Why don't you let God be the judge of her. She was ashamed and you basically reinforced that. Frankly from your first post until now I don't know why you don't thank God that you wife was willing even though scared. She still obviously wants to be sexual and likes sex. You are way ahead on that count. You should just seduce her. She is totally open for it. I get that you wish she would have told you, but from the way you responded she was correct not to. She is not a cheater or selfish, she is a person who let misplaced Christian guilt for something that she has already been redeemed for affect her whole life. That is nothing but a shame. She was rightfully fearful that a bad decision she made as a very young impressionable girl would be used by her husband to criticize and control her. I hope you are not trying to control her in other things. That is not Christ like, you are not responsible for the state of her forgiveness or her righteousness. From your post you should be concerned about your own. Try washing her feet more, if you get my reference. Treat her tenderly. For God's sake apologize for acting like a jerk and put some Barry White on and seduce the heck out of her. You want to be your wife's lover... love her!


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> Just need to say this to all men:
> 
> Never ask your wife what she thinks about when she masturbates because you don't want to know. She may tell you a little bit, enough to satisfy your curiosity or soothe your insecurity but only the very very rare relationship has created the kind of emotional safety into which she can be her ruthlessly honest self.
> 
> ...


This is so silly. Like us men only think about our wives when we masturbate (sarcasm). It's such a double standard! Who cares what people think about when they masturbate. Judge your wife's love by her actions not by her attractions (as long as one of them is you). Is she faithful, is she attracted to you, is she present with you when you make love. Great. Assuming you are monogamous let her be as freaky as she wants to be as long is it is with you. Freak'n enjoy it!


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## Ghost Rider (Mar 6, 2017)

If I had to choose between my wife literally sleeping with another man, and ceasing to masturbate so much because she's having too much sex with me, I think it's obvious which one I would pick. I should consider myself so lucky without feeling the need to abuse her.

Also I don't think thinking of somebody else besides your spouse while you're spanking it falls under the definition of infidelity. Just saying. Most of us have enough to worry about as it is.


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## Wife5362 (Oct 30, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Actually, you can here in the US. It's called statutory rape and we have these laws because children can't consent to sex, therefore having sex with a child is always rape.
> 
> But the benefit of OP, should he come back: you saw immediately how the dynamic between your wife and her boyfriend 30 years ago was imbalanced by his manipulation and her lack of insight or maturity. The boyfriend bullied her into consenting because it what what he wanted and he didn't consider what SHE wanted. Does this sound familiar?


It is not statuary rape if they are both 16. And how does the OP know that his wife was bullied into sex with her boyfriend who she thought she loved 30 years ago? What if it was the case of typical 16 year olds in the backseat of a car not always knowing how to best do certain acts?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Ghost Rider said:


> If I had to choose between my wife literally sleeping with another man, and ceasing to masturbate so much because she's having too much sex with me, I think it's obvious which one I would pick. I should consider myself so lucky without feeling the need to abuse her.
> 
> Also I don't think thinking of somebody else besides your spouse while you're spanking it falls under the definition of infidelity. Just saying. Most of us have enough to worry about as it is.


That really is just as an unfair ultimatum. It's just as awful when wives do it as husbands. Sex should not be coerced like that from anyone.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

alexm said:


> Something funny for you - I have actually asked her AND my ex wife what they thought of while masturbating. Both gave the same hilarious answer: faceless people, nobodies. What are the odds? :wink2:


Please tell me you asked your ex-wife this a long time ago. Otherwise, it's a very inappropriate conversation for a married man to have with his ex-wife.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

[



Wife5362 said:


> It is not statuary rape if they are both 16. And how does the OP know that his wife was bullied into sex with her boyfriend who she thought she loved 30 years ago? What if it was the case of typical 16 year olds in the backseat of a car not always knowing how to best do certain acts?


First: OP knows because he was there listening to his wife make the disclosures. 



doverfun said:


> My wife finally, after 21 years of marriage, let me know that her first boyfriend from 30 years ago, *used* her devotion and love for him to let him *use* her orally, anally and PIV each weekend for 6 months in the back of his car. I asked her *about the anal, and if he used lube, and she said no.* (if you've done it, then know why its important). Needless to say, suddenly, everything clicked into place. All of the years of her not wanting to talk about sex or make things better between us all *had to do with her not wanting to disclose her old boyfriend, basically raped a young, naive 16 year old girl into doing things she didn't want to do, much before she was ready to do them, because she was in love and he was a complete manipulator. *(deep breath)


Second: each state has their own rules and definitions of rape and statutory rape and age of consent. However, my post was in response to Diana's statement below.



Diana7 said:


> You cant call 2 teenagers having regular consensual sex rape.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

@alexm and. @Rocky Mountain Yeti

As I recall, women's fantasies were more focused on the situation and yes commonly there was a nameless faceless lover. Sometimes a husbands face gets plastered into the lover at the orgasmic moments. 

I personally and not really turned on by appearance itself. So who I fantasize about is always faceless. But I am always 25!


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## Ghost Rider (Mar 6, 2017)

sokillme said:


> That really is just as an unfair ultimatum. It's just as awful when wives do it as husbands. Sex should not be coerced like that from anyone.


That's a good point. He did pressure her a lot. She gave her best for him and he never really appreciated it. That's pretty sad.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Quality said:


> Please tell me you asked your ex-wife this a long time ago. Otherwise, it's a very inappropriate conversation for a married man to have with his ex-wife.


It was just the other day, in fact. The three of us were sitting around, having a drink...

OF COURSE it was a long time ago! lol!


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Anon Pink said:


> @alexm and. @Rocky Mountain Yeti
> 
> As I recall, women's fantasies were more focused on the situation and yes commonly there was a nameless faceless lover. Sometimes a husbands face gets plastered into the lover at the orgasmic moments.
> 
> I personally and not really turned on by appearance itself. So who I fantasize about is always faceless. But I am always 25!


So it COULD be true! The more you know! :smthumbup:

Honestly though, I don't care. As long as it's not about somebody close to me or a past lover or something weird like that. But I'm sure that happens. Meh.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> There have been threads about what women fantasize about during masturbation and for the most part it's not their husband.


Maybe I am unusual but I always think about my husband when having sex and on the few occasions I masturbate.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

alexm said:


> Anon Pink said:
> 
> 
> > There have been threads about what women fantasize about during masturbation and for the most part it's not their husband.
> ...


I think faceless nobodies is a pretty honest answer for many women. We tend to make a conglomeration of people as a fantasy and their faces usually don't matter so much. 

Faceless is one thing. They will always have a beautiful package though.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

alexm said:


> Anon Pink said:
> 
> 
> > @alexm and. @Rocky Mountain Yeti
> ...


Do you never fantasize about someone close to your wife or any ex?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> Do you never fantasize about someone close to your wife or any ex?


I can't say that I have, no. The people who are close to her are generally close to me as well, by default I guess. Her best friend is stunningly beautiful, and I recognize that, but not in a sexual way, if that makes sense?

I don't consciously create a dividing line or anything, it's just naturally there, I suppose. Maybe I'm weird that way. :grin2:

As for exes - good lord no. I've been unlucky in that I've never had a relationship that ended on a positive note (I sure knew how to choose them!), so there's never been a desire to, I suppose.

I didn't say it's wrong or unnatural to do this, btw. I just mentioned that I'd obviously prefer that my partner doesn't, but I also know that's unlikely and out of my control, anyway. But if I ever walked in on her screaming somebody else's name... :| Not cool man. Not cool. :grin2:


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

alexm said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > Do you never fantasize about someone close to your wife or any ex?
> ...


You don't even have good sexual memories of some lover or potential past lover who was beautiful and sexy? I wasn't thinking of exes in terms of how any particular relationship ended. I just meant that don't most of us have a few cherished glimpses of someone in our past who was so sexy (in whatever moment in time it was) that we will never really forget it and wouldn't want to?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> You don't even have good sexual memories of some lover or potential past lover who was beautiful and sexy? I wasn't thinking of exes in terms of how any particular relationship ended. I just meant that don't most of us have a few cherished glimpses of someone in our past who was so sexy (in whatever moment in time it was) that we will never really forget it and wouldn't want to?


I've been with 2 people in ~22 years, my wife, and my ex wife. The rest of my sexual experience came in the form of one-offs (or a few times) and "fooling around". I'm in my early 40's now, so my memories of these women (girls, really) are a lifetime ago, not to mention they would have all been between 14 and 18 at the time, as was I.

I really don't think it's 'wrong', though, if someone does. I mean, I get it. I simply don't have the relevant memories to have these kinds of thoughts.

The reality is that even though we love, are committed to, and attracted to our spouses, people don't just forget about all the other sexual experiences they've had. And even though our current partners might be amazing lovers and hit all the right buttons, it doesn't mean they're the only ones who ever have (or even the best ones, at that).


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

alexm said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > You don't even have good sexual memories of some lover or potential past lover who was beautiful and sexy? I wasn't thinking of exes in terms of how any particular relationship ended. I just meant that don't most of us have a few cherished glimpses of someone in our past who was so sexy (in whatever moment in time it was) that we will never really forget it and wouldn't want to?
> ...


That's why I was shocked when you said "as long as it's not an ex or something weird like that." What would be weird about it? Seems like exes would be one of the least weird things to fantasize about.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> That's why I was shocked when you said "as long as it's not an ex or something weird like that." What would be weird about it? Seems like exes would be one of the least weird things to fantasize about.


Why do you keep quoting yourself? I don't get a notification when you've responded!

I think we're going in circles, as usual  I think we agree on this, but perhaps we're saying it in different ways?

While I don't think it's out of the question for people to fantasize about exes, it's still not something I, or anybody really, would particularly like to know that their spouse does. Am I wrong?

The other side to that of course is that one's ex is a palpable and tangible fantasy. It's not really even a fantasy - you've actually had sex with them. You're not using your imagination so much as you're reliving something that actually happened. I can definitely see how it's easier!


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## Tony Conrad (Oct 7, 2013)

I think you are getting worked up about nothing to the point where you are grilling her. You have a lovely wife it sounds who is open to talking about sex. I can never get my wife to talk about sex as she is always embarrassed. I would count your blessings and be more loving and appreciative of her. It doesn't help sex to be on trial about it.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

> Betrayed by Masturbation?


I just have a hard time getting my mind wrapped around this.

Masturbation should not be a problem unless it gets to the point of denying one spouse the sexual love and attention the need. 

As David Schnarch would say there is no correct amount (frequency) of sex in marriage. Each spouse is unique and has a different level of sexual desire, which can change month to month and year to year. In marriage they need to reach a compromise in all things, including sex. Sometimes one partner will have a higher or lower desire than the other, when that happens masturbation can be a blessing and way for both to have their needs meet. Besides for most masturbation is a much different emotional experience then couples sex.

As long as masturbation doesn't prevent sex between the couple, I don't understand how it can be a betrayal. There is too much shame associated with masturbation and sex in general. A married couple should not hide part of their sexuality (masturbation) from their spouse.


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## drewg350 (Oct 14, 2017)

I think your crazy. So she has sex with you several times a week, than you find out she's masterbating for the past five years, and you feel "betrayed" ??? Why ??? Because all those times she was using her Vibrator you feel she could've been having sex with you ??? You haven't gotten yourself off once in 5 year's ??? Are you kidding me ??? I'll have sex with my wife 5 times a week and I still jerk off at least that many times a week, if not more. My wife knows I do. I tell her most times. Masterbating for me, lots of times, is convenience. I don't feel like going thru all the effort of having sex. I just need to get off. My wife doesn't mind at all or feel jealous. She masterbates on occasion. Not near as much as I do, but her sex drive isn't as high as mine. Should I be pissed because of that ??? Of course not. I think your crazy. As long as she's still having sex with you regularly, and you both enjoy it, what's the problem ??? You sound like you have "Vibrator jealousy". Believe me, if you don't let this bother you, and support your wife concerning masterbation, you can both turn this into something really fun. My wife and I will actually watch each other get ourselves off, together, and it's hot. I love watching my wife get off, and I learn new ways to touch her and what she really likes. It's pretty awesome. She feels the same way, and is getting much better at hand jobs now that she's watching how I like to be stroked. Give it a try.


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