# Misinterpreting weakness as honor



## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

This is something i've observed in men and i'm guilty of it myself. I'm sure many women struggle with this as well, but I guess i'm speaking from the viewpoint that men are supposed to just man up and be willing to deal with needless stress like a badge of honor. What got me thinking about this was a conversation I had with one of my best friends:

Today he called me and wanted to talk. I knew what it was going to be about. Him and his girlfriend. They have been together for over 3 years and have a baby together. He thinks she is cheating on him(She is). If he posted here he would make it sound as though he was blindsided by her cheating. But truth be told. She has been cheating on him for a long time. When they first got together she wouldn't answer her phone at night and would throw it in his face that she was "hanging out" with other men. She visited her ex-boyfriend in another state. She has hordes of men hitting her up on facebook. Recently she went out of town and stayed the night, for a wedding reception. She was adamant about him not going and he stayed with the baby. A few weeks ago she went to a company party and came home two hours late and gave him some flimsy excuse about her GPS messing her up.

The thing is, he has trouble talking about this. And you know why? Because it makes her look bad:slap: She IS BAD! My friend believes that he is being a good person by not wanting to throw her under the bus. She believes everything she says to him when it's obvious she is gaslighting him or trying to manipulate the situation for her benefit. Even when we talk about her he defends her to me. I told him to get the answers he wants he will have to get into her phone, facebook, and put a VAR in her car. He can't imagine doing these things. He feels that it's just wrong. I think my friend may have bought into the mindset that this is all his to bear and all his to fix. His trying to do the "right thing" and for who? There is no one going to give him a break and reward him for suffering in this terrible relationship. He is a great guy, rational, sharp, talented. But when it comes to women he feels he should tolerate A LOT. I do think sometimes people change and I am not saying this applies to any guy's situation here. So no disrespect is intended. But I think a lot of men who are with "women from hell" and can't explain why she is divorcing him/ cheating/ making false accusations...have this absurd sense of honor that morphs into a black hole and sucks in red flags. Since they expect terrible things, they have no idea what makes a good woman. 

thoughts?


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## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

If I have understood you right, it sounds like No More Mr Nice Guy syndrome. He's trying to "fix" his gf. If he expecting some reward for putting up with s**t then he is mistaken...


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

FalconKing said:


> This is something i've observed in men and i'm guilty of it myself. I'm sure many women struggle with this as well, but I guess i'm speaking from the viewpoint that men are supposed to just man up and be willing to deal with needless stress like a badge of honor. What got me thinking about this was a conversation I had with one of my best friends:
> 
> *Today he called me and wanted to talk. I knew what it was going to be about. Him and his girlfriend. They have been together for over 3 years and have a baby together. He thinks she is cheating on him(She is). If he posted here he would make it sound as though he was blindsided by her cheating. But truth be told. She has been cheating on him for a long time. When they first got together she wouldn't answer her phone at night and would throw it in his face that she was "hanging out" with other men. She visited her ex-boyfriend in another state. She has hordes of men hitting her up on facebook. Recently she went out of town and stayed the night, for a wedding reception. She was adamant about him not going and he stayed with the baby. A few weeks ago she went to a company party and came home two hours late and gave him some flimsy excuse about her GPS messing her up.*
> 
> ...


Yeah... he needs to (a) kick her to the curb and (b) DNA that kid.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

The ironic thing is that his weakness in the face of her bad behavior is just giving her more incentive to do it. He's enabling her.


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

knightRider said:


> If I have understood you right, it sounds like No More Mr Nice Guy syndrome. He's trying to "fix" his gf. If he expecting some reward for putting up with s**t then he is mistaken...


Exactly. This is just one example but I have so many by my other close friends. I really think a lot of men are conditioned to undervalue themselves when dealing with women. Also, there may be some cognitive dissonance going on. My friend told me that even though things are not always goodawink, he appreciates the good things and thats what keeps him trying. So in his mind, the relationship is worth it because sometimes she is nice to him. He does not process that he could meet a woman that could be nicer to him more consistently, and cause him less turmoil.


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> Yeah... he needs to (a) kick her to the curb and (b) DNA that kid.


I do believe the kid is his. They look just alike. But still your point is very much valid.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Luckily, I do not think that way. I have my own needs that if not met, then I detach after communication. There is nothing manly about getting walked on, nor womanly. He needs to learn to respect his own wants and needs, others will not.

Then again, you cannot make him respect himself, he has to be the one to do so.

We are told by society to keep our feelings and emotions inside and not to express them. In the end, we just end up unhealthy and unhappy.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

I'd say possibly codependent or a form of Stockholm syndrome if she has a PD. By any chance does she exhibit a sense of entitlement, the rules don't apply to her, she's the most beautiful/desirable, etc? I feel like I'll be accused of projecting every time I say this but I do it with a very objective approach - could she be Narcissistic? Only because I was him about 4 years into my relationship with ex. I didn't want to air our dirty laundry or make him look bad to parents or friends - I thought he would change but their opionion would be forever tainted. I also felt it was a reflection on ME for making a bad choice or not being able to handle things. I don't think mine ever cheated but it's one of the only signs he didn't have.

My point is, Co-dependent No More might be more appropriate of a read for him than No More Mr. Nice Guy. I don't think this is acceptable just because he is male but maybe because it somewhat resembles the White Knight Syndrome? Usually those are attracted to women who need rescuing but are bad news for other reasons, though.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

FalconKing said:


> I do believe the kid is his. They look just alike. But still your point is very much valid.


Sooo... he doesn't have a brother? Male cousins? Or, for that matter, a father, uncle, etc ...?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> The ironic thing is that his weakness in the face of her bad behavior is just giving her more incentive to do it. He's enabling her.


Listen to the bear.


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I'd say possibly codependent or a form of Stockholm syndrome if she has a PD. By any chance does she exhibit a sense of entitlement, the rules don't apply to her, she's the most beautiful/desirable, etc? I feel like I'll be accused of projecting every time I say this but I do it with a very objective approach - could she be Narcissistic? Only because I was him about 4 years into my relationship with ex. I didn't want to air our dirty laundry or make him look bad to parents or friends - I thought he would change but their opionion would be forever tainted. I also felt it was a reflection on ME for making a bad choice or not being able to handle things. I don't think mine ever cheated but it's one of the only signs he didn't have.
> 
> My point is, Co-dependent No More might be more appropriate of a read for him than No More Mr. Nice Guy. I don't think this is acceptable just because he is male but maybe because it somewhat resembles the White Knight Syndrome? Usually those are attracted to women who need rescuing but are bad news for other reasons, though.


I seriously believe you are my friend from an alternate reality, where you and his girlfriend have switched genders

This is exactly the dynamic. Different rules for her and him. And yes she is an attractive woman and narcassistic. She's actually had a few small parts in movies and met a few celebrities. Also, Stockhold syndrome indeed. My friend had a decent paying job when he met her and his own place. She convinced him to work with her in the film industry. He would help with casting calls and what not. The pay was very inconsistent. Despite that, my friend was well liked by coworkers. Even though she convinced him to take the job, she was jealous of people liking him and started to make the job miserable for him. He couldn't go back to his old job and pretty much excused a lot of her behavior because he felt powerless. When he finally found something he was so desensitized to her terrible treatment he no longer felt the need to leave the relationship. Oh, and one time she assaulted him(that I know of). She sprayed air freshener in his face, scratched him and spit on him. He pushed her off of him and she flopped on the floor like a soccer player and accused him of hitting her. He panicked. He knew if she called the police he would go to jail. So he just tried to appease her and calm her down from her fake hysteria... He's stayed despite all of this. 

I understand that women could be codependent as well. I just thought for most men it could be a white knight thing. But to your point. It doesn't matter how we get there. He could definitely benefit from things that speak to him as a person, as well as things that speak to him as a man. 



GusPolinski said:


> Sooo... he doesn't have a brother? Male cousins? Or, for that matter, a father, uncle, etc ...?


:rofl: I hear you Gus. But they didn't live near his family. Never have. Also, his family knows she's bad news... But now they have a kid together...


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

> And yes she is an attractive woman and narcassistic.


Would he be such a willingly blind and forgiving doormat if she weren't so hot? He should ask himself that question.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

FalconKing said:


> :rofl: I hear you Gus. But they didn't live near his family. Never have. Also, his family knows she's bad news... But now they have a kid together...


I'd advise him to get out before they have more than just the one.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

You can't fix stupid. Or willful ignorance, for that matter. Tell him that you're happy to help with advice and a compassionate ear, but since he doesn't listen you no longer want to listen to him either.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> I'd advise him to get out before they have more than just the one.


and i'd advise him into buying his own condoms and keeping them hidden (or not sleeping with her) if he thinks that a surprise second pregnancy might change his mind and make him stay.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

knightRider said:


> If I have understood you right, it sounds like No More Mr Nice Guy syndrome. He's trying to "fix" his gf. If he expecting some reward for putting up with s**t then he is mistaken...


Nah, he's not fixing her.

The quote is that "She is giving her space to be herself" and "that he should not be trying to control her in the relationship".

and that's the respect, and result, you will get from someone who isn't personally orientated in being a good wife/gf.
ie there eventually always comes to the point "do I care more about my marriage" or "Do I care more about what I want". each time the second option is chosen it gets easier and ingrained.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

FalconKing said:


> I seriously believe you are my friend from an alternate reality, where you and his girlfriend have switched genders
> 
> This is exactly the dynamic. Different rules for her and him. And yes she is an attractive woman and narcassistic. She's actually had a few small parts in movies and met a few celebrities. Also, Stockhold syndrome indeed. My friend had a decent paying job when he met her and his own place. She convinced him to work with her in the film industry. He would help with casting calls and what not. The pay was very inconsistent. Despite that, my friend was well liked by coworkers. Even though she convinced him to take the job, she was jealous of people liking him and started to make the job miserable for him. He couldn't go back to his old job and pretty much excused a lot of her behavior because he felt powerless. When he finally found something he was so desensitized to her terrible treatment he no longer felt the need to leave the relationship. *Oh, and one time she assaulted him(that I know of). She sprayed air freshener in his face, scratched him and spit on him. He pushed her off of him and she flopped on the floor like a soccer player and accused him of hitting her. He panicked. He knew if she called the police he would go to jail. So he just tried to appease her and calm her down from her fake hysteria... He's stayed despite all of this. *
> 
> ...


You need to help your friend find his balls. Or point him to where he can buy a pair. Was your friend abused as a child? How did he justify sticking with her after this?


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

FalconKing said:


> This is something i've observed in men and i'm guilty of it myself. I'm sure many women struggle with this as well, but I guess i'm speaking from the viewpoint that men are supposed to just man up and be willing to deal with needless stress like a badge of honor. What got me thinking about this was a conversation I had with one of my best friends:
> 
> Today he called me and wanted to talk. I knew what it was going to be about. Him and his girlfriend. They have been together for over 3 years and have a baby together. He thinks she is cheating on him(She is). If he posted here he would make it sound as though he was blindsided by her cheating. But truth be told. She has been cheating on him for a long time. When they first got together she wouldn't answer her phone at night and would throw it in his face that she was "hanging out" with other men. She visited her ex-boyfriend in another state. She has hordes of men hitting her up on facebook. Recently she went out of town and stayed the night, for a wedding reception. She was adamant about him not going and he stayed with the baby. A few weeks ago she went to a company party and came home two hours late and gave him some flimsy excuse about her GPS messing her up.
> 
> ...


You friend either has forgotten or never knew that he was a man...a man with options. He can change this whenever he wants. 

The best way to help him would be to tell him the truth. She isn't worth it...treats him like crap...and you are tired of hearing about it. Because she isn't the problem...he is.


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

Kivlor said:


> You need to help your friend find his balls. Or point him to where he can buy a pair. Was your friend abused as a child? How did he justify sticking with her after this?


hmmm.. well. He's parents are great. Been together for years. Dad's a man's man. Never wears jackets no matter the weather, worked construction his whole life, hunts and fishes and can fix anything. Mom works for the school system and is sweet but a bit fiesty. My friend is a pretty selfless guy when it comes to friends. He's stood by me when others wouldn't. I've noticed though he has a strong desire to be liked or be popular. He want's some one so bad and doesn't know how to be alone. Here's a list of the few women he's been with:
He had a crush on a girl who worked up north who was just in town to *** his friend.
-A party girl he met at a bar that he flew to visit and she pretty much made him sleep on the couch and was seeing another guy
-A girl who he dated that actually used to date his cousin and was randomly banging some other dude until he and her hooked up at a New Year's eve party. 
-A girl that friend zoned him then took a week trip to europe alone to hook up with guys. Then had sex after he ignored her for like a week.. Then she stopped talking to him
-Another long term girlfriend of his was a girl he met after being single for 3 weeks(she actually was a good girl. She just gained like 80lbs in the 3 years they were together and wanted him to marry her)

There are more. But after typing that all out....wtf is my friend doing:circle:


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

FalconKing said:


> hmmm.. well. He's parents are great. Been together for years. Dad's a man's man. Never wears jackets no matter the weather, worked construction his whole life, hunts and fishes and can fix anything. Mom works for the school system and is sweet but a bit fiesty. My friend is a pretty selfless guy when it comes to friends. He's stood by me when others wouldn't. I've noticed though he has a strong desire to be liked or be popular. He want's some one so bad and doesn't know how to be alone. Here's a list of the few women he's been with:
> He had a crush on a girl who worked up north who was just in town to *** his friend.
> -A party girl he met at a bar that he flew to visit and she pretty much made him sleep on the couch and was seeing another guy
> -A girl who he dated that actually used to date his cousin and was randomly banging some other dude until her and her hooked up at a New Year's eve party.
> ...


:surprise:Wow. Well.... I was going to ask if his picker is broken, but that answers that...

Have you told him to go see a counselor? I think he could use one.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

I've seen it so many times IRL, Falcon. 

It's a written deep within them that this all they deserve. Pleasing others to extremes, for emotional kibbles. Unselfishly loyal in a quest that others will think well of them. There's nothing wrong with loyalty, as long as it's not to your personal detriment. Unfortunately, there are those who don't reciprocate or worse they manipulate this fault. Instead of recognizing it for what it is, they deny it to themselves and others so no one thinks less of them. Men and women. 

Counseling would be in order. IMHO 

Best


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

For those mentioning counseling.. He started going to counseling about a year ago because she told him he was dangerous and needed therapy to learn how to control himself. It was pure gaslighting but he started going and I do think it's helping him. Apparently he believes he has some deep anger problems and now he is getting help. His angry(if any) comes from being in this relationship. I challenged him to ask his counselor his professional opinion about infidelity after breaking down the timeline of all the events that occurred that has worried him about her cheating on him. He was hesitant but said he would consider it. He has been careful not to bad talk about his gf even in therapy. I bet his counselor doesn't know half the things about her that I do. I couldn't believe he had never done that...


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

FalconKing said:


> thoughts?


Is that weakness or is that someone who (for whatever reason) is just naturally a martyr? Or are they the same thing?


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Is that weakness or is that someone who (for whatever reason) is just naturally a martyr? Or are they the same thing?


**mind blown**

That's very fascinating thought. Perhaps it's a weakness if it causes someone unjust suffering. Some people have been very selfless and self sacrificing throughout history. It's lead to them having terrible lives but in hopes for the greater good. Some suffered and some were killed. In the end we remember them fondly. I think the key difference is that there is someone involved besides you that benefits from your efforts. There is you, the opposition(person or persons, system..etc..), and then there are those who stand to benefit from your actions. In terrible relationships its only you and someone else. If that person has an adversarial view of you, you stand to gain nothing from your efforts because they already feel they benefit from the view they already hold. I hope I am making sense?


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

FalconKing said:


> **mind blown**
> 
> That's very fascinating thought. Perhaps it's a weakness if it causes someone unjust suffering. Some people have been very selfless and self sacrificing throughout history. It's lead to them having terrible lives but in hopes for the greater good. Some suffered and some were killed. In the end we remember them fondly. I think the key difference is that there is someone involved besides you that benefits from your efforts. There is you, the opposition(person or persons, system..etc..), and then there are those who stand to benefit from your actions. In terrible relationships its only you and someone else. If that person has an adversarial view of you, you stand to gain nothing from your efforts because they already feel they benefit from the view they already hold. I hope I am making sense?



Outcome. In cases of people like Martin Luther King Jr., it was to enhance the quality of life of others. In your friend's case, she remains dysfunctional and so does he. Sure, she gains by boosting her own ego towards her self centric nature, he enables that, but in terms of what can help her emotional development, he is a hindrance. Although, it is not guaranteed if he left her, she would improve, but he has a chance of increasing his own well-being.

With children involved, it can also affect their own development, since those two are primary role models. Emulation and observance iare some of the tools children learn by.

So, she learns that she can treat him poorly, and he will simply take it, and in turn, he helps enables that type of behavior.


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