# Question From Wayward Spouse



## Nevermoreagain (Feb 12, 2017)

I'm not going to pretty this up, because there is nothing pretty about it. I had a several month emotional affair, email and phone (not that that makes a difference). I hurt the man who was my life and loved me so deeply. It's been over a year since he found out and we still deal with this and the pain ever day. He is doing better, but i'm not. I am so guilty and I hurt so bad for what i did. But here is my question.

He knows that the om had a picture of me wearing a particular shirt. I didn't give it to him, but he downloaded off my facebook page (I will never go on facebook again btw). My husband has asked me to get rid of it. Here is the question. What would you think if i made it kind of like a ceremony where i burned the shirt, Talk about how i feel that I am becoming a different person and how I want the person i was to die. Then i'll take the ashes of the shirt, mix them with dirt, and we can plant flower seeds to bring new life from the ashes? 

I feel it symbolizes a lot, but do you think it would be upsetting to him? I am so afraid that i am going to do something else to cause him pain, that I am scared to do anything. We are both in Individual Therapy and Marriage Therapy, and Last week we talked about being more spontaneous. What do you think?


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Just throw the shirt out. Today.

You are already not doing what he requested. He asked you to "get rid of it". 

Did you do it? No. Because you are not listening to him. You want to do what you want. 

Get rid of it today.

Btw, when did H ask you to get rid of it? Today i hope.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Absolutely!!! Do this. Make it a ceremony. Burn it. Wear black, and a nice colored silk scarf representing your new life. I threw my OM's ring over the bridge he said I'D jump off of if I ever left him, and it was symbolic and beautiful and the beginning of my new life without him.

Your affair, however wrong, hurtful, and illicit it was, was still a relationship. There'd be something wrong with you if you could just end a relationship with no emotion, no feeling, no loss.

Here, please read this article I wrote and tell me if it helps you. 

Good luck, be well, and please take time for yourself when you're not busy helping your husband. 



> So, you’ve had an affair. You’ve ended it, and have either confessed to your betrayed partner or been caught. The truth is out. It’s early on, only a few weeks out from D-day, and you’ve been reading, posting, and studying everything you can get your hands on about how to help your Betrayed Spouse heal from your affair. There are thousands of books for Betrayed Spouses about surviving their partner’s selfish decision to be unfaithful. There are dozens of books written to Wayward Spouses about what their broken-hearted, shattered, traumatized Betrayed Spouse needs from them right now. You know they need you. You know you’ve done a horrible thing and that you have to change. The following advice will assume you’ve already read these articles.
> 
> In my search through half a dozen books, hundreds of articles, and thousands of forum posts on multiple websites dedicated to recovering from infidelity, I noticed that something was missing. There was a wealth of good advice on how to comfort your Betrayed Spouse, but very little on how to comfort yourself. So many Wayward Spouses, whilst trying to navigate the mess they made, find themselves biting their tongues in a herculean effort not to wail, “But what about ME?!! This hurts ME too, you know!!”
> 
> ...



I hope you keep posting here and tell us about how it went.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

No. Those flowers will always remind him that you cheated. 

Every time he sees them. Do you want that?

Do what he needs, not what you want.

Actually do what he wants, not what you need. 

He wants the shirt gone.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

You want to feel better? 

Divorce your betrayed husband. 

Make it as easy as you can on him. 

Let him have the majority of the assets. 

Just take what you brought into the marriage. 

Treat him with the respect you never gave him in the marriage, but don't tempt him to sleep with you. 

Then, go and find him a really great woman he is really compatible with. 

Wish them well and never come back into his life again.

Do all of this and the guilt will be gone. 

You will have worked on yourself to become a better woman. 

You will also have shown him that you love him. It's not the kind of love you are used to giving. It's real love. Love of another human being. Something you didn't have when you had your EA and online virtual PA. 

While doing this, you can attend any counseling necessary to get through it and learn to respect yourself and form better boundaries in your own life. 

Good luck. I know this will work. I don't know if you have the courage to actually do it. 

Apologies for being harsh. Reality and the truth tend to be harsh.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> You want to feel better?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Wow. Great way to chase off another new member who came here for help. 

Didn't have your coffee this morning? You normally give much more helpful advice, 2. You were less hard on me and I did worse.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Wow. Great way to chase off another new member who came here for help.
> 
> Didn't have your coffee this morning? You normally give much more helpful advice, 2. You were less hard on me and I did worse.


I know right? You've got to be gentle with the newbies, or you'll scare them and shame them away.

I hope you'll keep posting, Nevermore. I know you and your husband can get through this.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Far too melodramatic, IMO. Just throw out / burn the shirt and be done w/ it.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

blueinbr said:


> Wow. Great way to chase off another new member who came here for help.
> 
> Didn't have your coffee this morning? You normally give much more helpful advice, 2. You were less hard on me and I did worse.




That was because I felt compassion for your wife.


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## Seppuku (Sep 22, 2010)

I suggest you listen to the men here who have been betrayed and just toss the shirt. Burn it if you must. What purpose would doing this serve? He doesn't want to be reminded of the shirt or your affair, which is what flowers would do.

Making it a ceremony would only make him feel like you are grieving your lost relationship. This has nothing to do with making him feel better. If you want to burn the shirt, burn it by yourself. Do not plant flowers. Just put the ashes in the trash and be done with it.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Nevermoreagain said:


> I'm not going to pretty this up, because there is nothing pretty about it. I had a several month emotional affair, email and phone (not that that makes a difference). I hurt the man who was my life and loved me so deeply. It's been over a year since he found out and we still deal with this and the pain ever day. He is doing better, but i'm not. I am so guilty and I hurt so bad for what i did. But here is my question.
> 
> He knows that the om had a picture of me wearing a particular shirt. I didn't give it to him, but he downloaded off my facebook page (I will never go on facebook again btw). My husband has asked me to get rid of it. Here is the question. What would you think if i made it kind of like a ceremony where i burned the shirt, Talk about how i feel that I am becoming a different person and how I want the person i was to die. Then i'll take the ashes of the shirt, mix them with dirt, and we can plant flower seeds to bring new life from the ashes?
> 
> I feel it symbolizes a lot, but do you think it would be upsetting to him? I am so afraid that i am going to do something else to cause him pain, that I am scared to do anything. We are both in Individual Therapy and Marriage Therapy, and Last week we talked about being more spontaneous. What do you think?


Just throw the f****ng shirt out and quit with the melodrama,he has had enough of your crap, are you trying to punish him for putting up with you.
Just dump it allready.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Nevermoreagain said:


> I'm not going to pretty this up, because there is nothing pretty about it. I had a several month emotional affair, email and phone (not that that makes a difference). I hurt the man who was my life and loved me so deeply. It's been over a year since he found out and we still deal with this and the pain ever day. He is doing better, but i'm not. I am so guilty and I hurt so bad for what i did. But here is my question.
> 
> He knows that the om had a picture of me wearing a particular shirt. I didn't give it to him, but he downloaded off my facebook page (I will never go on facebook again btw). My husband has asked me to get rid of it. Here is the question. What would you think if i made it kind of like a ceremony where i burned the shirt, Talk about how i feel that I am becoming a different person and how I want the person i was to die. Then i'll take the ashes of the shirt, mix them with dirt, and we can plant flower seeds to bring new life from the ashes?
> 
> I feel it symbolizes a lot, but do you think it would be upsetting to him? I am so afraid that i am going to do something else to cause him pain, that I am scared to do anything. We are both in Individual Therapy and Marriage Therapy, and Last week we talked about being more spontaneous. What do you think?


You may be a distant relative of mine; back in my American Indian Medicine Man days. That was a number of Incarnations ago.

This is an excellent idea. When an Indian warrior killed a foe or beat him in battle, he took something from him as a totem. That gave the warrior special powers. The Africans and Carib-Africans used the same logic [using personal effects from the victim] in performing Voodoo.

The Persians burn Esfand seeds اسفند to ward off evil-eyes and thoughts, from others.

Ancient Assyrians, Babylonians and Egyptians. burned incense to ward off evil spirits. In Judaism, incense was included in the thanksgiving offerings of oil, rain, fruits, wine (cf. Numbers 7:13-17). The Lord instructed Moses to build a golden altar for the burning of incense (cf. Exodus 30:1-10), which was placed in front of the veil to the entrance of the meeting tent where the ark of the covenant was kept.

And Catholics burn incense for their rituals to add a sense of solemnity and mystery to the Mass..

Buddhists burn Incense as an offering. Incense, in particular, stands for ethics and morality. But these offerings only have meaning if the follower also has right conduct. Incense also reminds the practitioner of the path of the Middle Way, or moderation, and offers the key to enlightenment and Buddhahood. It creates a feeling of serenity. 

By burning this shirt, [with your collective body cells and perspiration that are in-bedded in the fiber], you burn the physical link to your EA partner. And, you you will send a message to the "Great Ether" that surrounds us. You will break a tie to the other man and show your husband that his soul is still bound to you in that "Ether" and in the flesh.

The shirt is tainted with quilt. The Ancient Mariner was forced to wear the Albatross on a string around his neck.... for his sins. 

You "chose" to wear that shirt that drapes over your' body..... over your' husbands precious bosoms. It tears at his mind. And it was "he?" that brought up the shirt. He took notice? Not good.

Yes, burn that shirt *with incense*. Your betrothed one* is incensed* at the sight of this two sleeved banner, this red flag in his vision. To see his wife in it, is to see "him" in her. 
The Ashes from that shirt? Put them in a fast running stream....very fast and turbulent. The water will separate the deceit from the deceived. It will dilute the sin, the remnants eventually to the delta to be landed and to be absorbed as silt forgotten .


Ah, the agony.

As long as your husband grieves and pains you have a chance. It is his love [for you] that torments him. 

*Fear the naught*. 

When the frown turns straight and his eyes look straight...through you, then his passion for you is *naught* and your marriage be doomed.

I wish you the best. You are worthy.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> You may be a distant relative of mine; back in my American Indian Medicine Man days. That was a number of Incarnations ago.
> 
> This is an excellent idea. When an Indian warrior killed a foe or beat him in battle, he took something from him as a totem. That gave the warrior special powers. The Africans and Carib-Africans used the same logic [using personal effects from the victim] in performing Voodoo.
> 
> ...



This. Qft.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Andy1001 said:


> Just throw the f****ng shirt out and quit with the melodrama,he has had enough of your crap, are you trying to punish him for putting up with you.
> Just dump it allready.


Unfortunately, many waywards justified their actions long before their acts with the help of friends and/or family.

Part of the guilt she is feeling, and part of what she is talking about is the guilt she feels at swallowing the pride she built before she cheated. She has to bury that part and give it homage. She really doesn't feel as sorry about the infidelity as she does about losing her dreams. That's the reason for the melodrama and flowers and so forth. It's a kind of ceremony that will give her acceptance of what she believes she must do, rather than what she wants to do. 

How can she ever fully put herself back into this marriage? It's impossible. Her husband is better off divorced than to be reminded of her "sacrifice" every time she doesn't get what she wants. 

I won't be a part of helping her to ruin her life and his. Some of these other bleeding hearts can do that.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> Unfortunately, many waywards justified their actions long before their acts with the help of friends and/or family.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You are reading far too much into her question and motives. She probably is thinking this because it is what she would want if the circumstances where reversed. 

If her husband posts, you can give him advice. 

The OP asked for advice only on the shirt.

Your words say "many waywards" not all. Have you already decided she is part of the many?


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Nevermore me lady, nothing is more symbolic that something is no longer of value than having it first in the trash and then buried in a landfill with the other garbage. Sound to me you want more of a funeral fire for the shirt and having it rise like a Phoenix from its ashes. Its arguable whether the Phoenix is your husband or the OM. People typically keep ashes of the departed because they don't want to let them go. Strange to you only mentioned how you hurt the one who really loves you and was (possible Freudian slip) your life rather than how you hurt the one you really love and is your life. But you and I know if you really loved (had high romantic interest) in him, the OM would have never been in the picture. Gather the facts and face the reality of it.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

blueinbr said:


> You are reading far too much into her question and motives. She probably is thinking this because it is what she would want if the circumstances where reversed.
> 
> If her husband posts, you can give him advice.
> 
> The OP asked for advice only on the shirt.


Prove it.


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## bigfoot (Jan 22, 2014)

So he has to sit or stand at attention for however long it takes you to burn your love shirt? Come on. Stop with all the extra.

He doesn't want to see it. He said get rid of it. Why complicate things? Get rid of it.

He asked you, by getting married, to be faithful. You had an affair. He asks you to get rid of a shirt and you want a ceremony. I see a theme.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Nevermoreagain said:


> I'm not going to pretty this up, because there is nothing pretty about it. I had a several month emotional affair, email and phone (not that that makes a difference). I hurt the man who was my life and loved me so deeply. It's been over a year since he found out and we still deal with this and the pain ever day. He is doing better, but i'm not. I am so guilty and I hurt so bad for what i did. But here is my question.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Young lady, the shirt is a distraction. Throw it out. And then let's talk about the bigger issue. 

There are other waywards here to help you. Please keep posting on this thread. Tell us about the EA.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Young lady, the shirt is a distraction. Throw it out. And then let's talk about the bigger issue.
> 
> There are other waywards here to help you. Please keep posting on this thread. Tell us about the EA.


She is one of these people who have to see a deep meaning in everything.The fact is she liked the look of the other man and if circumstances had been different she would have jumped into bed with him.But it can never be that simple for this precious little snowflake,it was not her fault and now she needs a pat on the back for being faithful to her husband.She has not said that she loves her husband only that he loves her and she obviously still resents him for her having to give up Her would be lover.
I would give her a pat on the back while I was helping her out the door,would that be spontaneous enough.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Nevermoreagain said:


> I'm not going to pretty this up, because there is nothing pretty about it. I had a several month emotional affair, email and phone (not that that makes a difference). I hurt the man who was my life and loved me so deeply. It's been over a year since he found out and we still deal with this and the pain ever day. He is doing better, but i'm not. I am so guilty and I hurt so bad for what i did. But here is my question.
> 
> He knows that the om had a picture of me wearing a particular shirt. I didn't give it to him, but he downloaded off my facebook page (I will never go on facebook again btw). My husband has asked me to get rid of it. Here is the question. What would you think if i made it kind of like a ceremony where i burned the shirt, Talk about how i feel that I am becoming a different person and how I want the person i was to die. Then i'll take the ashes of the shirt, mix them with dirt, and we can plant flower seeds to bring new life from the ashes?
> 
> I feel it symbolizes a lot, but do you think it would be upsetting to him? I am so afraid that i am going to do something else to cause him pain, that I am scared to do anything. We are both in Individual Therapy and Marriage Therapy, and Last week we talked about being more spontaneous. What do you think?


Who would the ceremony be for? Not for your husband. If you need a ceremony then do it for yourself but don't tell your husband. The bigger point is your husband is still being cheated out of his wife being present in his marriage. First it was your EA and now it is the aftermath of your EA. You were able to have the EA so you much be able to compartmentalize. I suggest you use that ability to stop allowing your guilt to distract from your relationship with him.

I am not saying to not get help or deal with your issues but there is a time and place for that. Mostly in counseling and the occasional, and it should be occasional times you talk about it, unless he brings it up. Make sure you are not making your husband your counselor that is not a good dynamic and just continues the cycle of him being cheated out of his wife. It's time for you to use you emotional energy when you are with him to be his wife. Your lives should not be all about your affair, as much as that is possible. He has one wife and she has been detracted for what seems to be quite a while.

Be spontaneous about being his wife. That is the role you accepted start acting it.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

Honey, it is refreshing to hear someone so candid and repentant about what they have done.
Your relationship can survive this and you can be stronger in the end.

Throw the shirt away. No ceremony. Let this bad memory die. IF he has agreed to forgive you and move on, I would encourage him to stop bringing it up all the time. If he can't stop doing that, he hasn't forgiven you yet. Then you both need to decide if you will stay together. At this time, if he has forgiven you, he needs to work on moving past this. 

I know it's hard, but it needs to happen. Wallowing in it over and over more than a year later cannot be good for anyone. It sounds like you learned your lesson, this wasn't a PA, and you have stopped it and are dedicated to making your marriage work. He needs to be of the same mindset though.

Please keep posting so we all can help you. Don't let harsh comments scare you away. We all have our individual opinions and things can be learned from all of us. Hugs to you, and I really hope your marriage gets stronger and stronger. Remember....toss the shirt, like now.


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## Mike6211 (Jan 18, 2013)

Nevermoreagain said:


> ... What would you think if i made it kind of like a ceremony where i burned the shirt, Talk about how i feel that I am becoming a different person and how I want the person i was to die. Then i'll take the ashes of the shirt, mix them with dirt, and we can plant flower seeds to bring new life from the ashes?
> 
> *I feel it symbolizes a lot*, but do you think it would be upsetting to him? ... What do you think?


 [my emphasis]

I think I would like to know more about what, exactly, you feel it would symbolise.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I'll tell you, if she was over her affair and remorseful, that shirt would mean nothing. She wouldn't be here asking. She isn't over OM. 

You guys are right in asking her to come back and talk about the EA and virtual PA. She needs to start over to see that she has not become the person she thinks she has. 

She also needs to recognize she is closer to divorce than reconciliation. Maybe her coming back will help her to see that. I hope so. She will not be happy staying with her husband. 

You force her to stay with him and you'll be doing both of them a disservice. 

Don't you want them to be happy?


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> Don't you want them to be happy?


Of course we do. Frankly, we know almost nothing about their situation. So we have to wait for more details. Otherwise we can only base our comments on what she has said thusfar.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@Nevermoreagain, 

First, I do hope you'll come back and talk to us. When you come here as a wayward spouse, you have to expect a certain amount of painful replies from betrayed spouses who were betrayed and still feel the sting. That being said, I think it's wiser to take some lumps and get support from a few wiser waywards we have here than to avoid the lumps and never grow. Here's the thing though, @Nevermoreagain--sometimes what's TRUE hurts to hear. So what I promise you is that I will respect you enough to tell you the TRUTH because I believe you can handle it even if it is hard or hurts a bit. Okay? 

Second, I think it is telling that the folks who are saying "oh go ahead and burn it!" are the other wayward people, and the folks who are saying "if you do that you'll remind him and hurt him" are the betrayed people. Seems to me that says something. Now it's up to you to decide if you want to consider that as a message you can hear. 

Third, here is my opinion, and I am not sure it's popular amongst the other waywards on this forum: this is no longer about you and YOUR NEEDS. Just so you get a feeling for who I am and why I can talk to you like this, I am also a former wayward spouse--I like to think of myself as "in recovery" because to me it's very similar to addiction in that you are never "cured." You are just aware of a weakness and learn to live life in such a way as to protect those you love from YOUR weakness! It's like alcoholics--they never become "not alcoholics" but they do stop going to the bar, stop drinking, and stop dealing with their pain through numbing and other poor choices. In my heart I've changed and learned a lot, and after years here at TAM lots of folks can verify, but I also know that I'm weak to compliments and attention, so I purposely arrange my life so that the attention I get is from my husband.  Get it? 

Anyway, in recovery after an affair, there is always a push-pull dynamic that goes on that is something like this: "I realize that I made a mistake and I am married so it's my job to meet his/her needs, but what about my needs? Do I just svck it up and not have my needs met because I had an affair?" In a way that's kind of what you're asking here, right? You need some sort of "finality ceremony" to bury your affair and put it in the past. Honestly I think that sort of thing might be pretty symbolic for you. But if you think about it, your whole, entire affair was all about YOU and what YOU needed/wanted. There was not consideration of your spouse and what s/he needed or wanted, and in fact most likely during the affair, your spouse was lied to, blamed, threatened and betrayed by the very person who is supposed to "have their back" and "be there for them"!!! 

So no, you aren't supposed to just accept verbal abuse or emotional abuse, but in order to truly show repentance and change inside you, what you do have to accept is that for a long time now, it's been about YOU and getting your needs met even if it was via someone outside your marriage! The natural cost of choosing to go outside the marriage is losing the marriage. That doesn't mean your spouse is a meanie by not giving you another chance--it means that your actions KILLED the marriage. Take personal responsibility and be honest with yourself--you GOT your needs met! So for now, for a while, in order to DEMONSTRATE with your actions (not just words and promises) that you are CHANGED and a different person inside, you do indeed need to act differently! 

I personally think you would be demonstrating that you are thinking of yourself and your needs if you did the burning ceremony followed by planting flowers. I think that would be good FOR YOU, and may or may not be good for your spouse! Thus in order to demonstrate that you are thinking of your spouse, if it were me, I would recommend just doing exactly what your spouse asked. Now you said that your husband said "Get rid of it" and we don't know how long ago he asked you to get rid of it. So if it were me, I'd do it RIGHT NOW TODAY and if you can do it in front of him or with him. Tear it up/cut it up/burn it up so he sees that you are doing what he needs. Maybe ask him what would feel best to him--throw it in the trash, or cut it up with scissors so it is utterly destroyed. See how that would HELP HIM and demonstrate with your actions that you are thinking of what he needs? (Namely, I think HE needs some symbolism to show everything connected to the OM is DESTROYED and REMOVED.) He may want you to destroy it and rip it up in front of him so he can see you don't value it AT ALL. He may need to see it among the garbage--that would be a powerful symbol!! 

So do it today, and do it in whatever way is best for him--ask him and then do precisely what he says the way he says it. That will be a powerful symbol to both of you that the past affair is CUT OUT of your lives, and that you are listening to him and what HE NEEDS.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Spicy said:


> Of course we do. Frankly, we know almost nothing about their situation. So we have to wait for more details. Otherwise we can only base our comments on what she has said thusfar.


I can't imagine what else you'd need.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> So if it were me, I'd do it RIGHT NOW TODAY and if you can do it in front of him or with him. Tear it up/cut it up/burn it up so he sees that you are doing what he needs. Maybe ask him what would feel best to him--throw it in the trash, or cut it up with scissors so it is utterly destroyed. See how that would HELP HIM and demonstrate with your actions that you are thinking of what he needs? (Namely, I think HE needs some symbolism to show everything connected to the OM is DESTROYED and REMOVED.) He may want you to destroy it and rip it up in front of him so he can see you don't value it AT ALL. He may need to see it among the garbage--that would be a powerful symbol!!
> 
> So do it today, and do it in whatever way is best for him--ask him and then do precisely what he says the way he says it. That will be a powerful symbol to both of you that the past affair is CUT OUT of your lives, and that you are listening to him and what HE NEEDS.


This is good advice for someone who is really remorseful. It isn't rocket surgery. It's what the betrayed's have been trying to tell her. 

I think you are missing the point, though. If she wanted to do it, she would have just balled it up in front of him when he asked, immediately, and tossed it straight into the trash in front of him. Why ask him? It isn't up to him. It's up to her, if she wants to stay in the marriage or not. Right now, she doesn't. She feels obligated. 

It will take some counseling to figure out if she really wants to stay married. Not because of whatever she has with him, but because she wants to be with him. She likes to be with him. I don't know how you can go from the decision that he is bad enough that she can feel justified in cheating, to...actions that are almost unprepared to show him she loves only him and wants only him. 

That's over. He is now and always will be, the second choice. First choice is in that tee shirt. That is obvious to me. 

I do know, if anyone can help her and her marriage, you can. I just don't agree they should reconcile. It isn't for him. It's for her, right now. She lost her love and she is mourning. She's not really in love anymore, but knows no where else to turn.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Spicy said:


> Honey, it is refreshing to hear someone so candid and repentant about what they have done.
> 
> Your relationship can survive this and you can be stronger in the end.
> 
> ...




Finally, a helpful post.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> I can't imagine what else you'd need.




Again, if you are not going to support the OP and help, don't post on their threads. It ain't that hard.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> This is good advice for someone who is really remorseful. It isn't rocket surgery. It's what the betrayed's have been trying to tell her.
> 
> I think you are missing the point, though. If she wanted to do it, she would have just balled it up in front of him when he asked, immediately, and tossed it straight into the trash in front of him. Why ask him? It isn't up to him. It's up to her, if she wants to stay in the marriage or not. Right now, she doesn't. She feels obligated.


This is a good point, @2ntnuf, meaning that people find a way to do what they REALLY want to do, and they find a way to avoid what they don't really want to do even while they say out loud "I want to, I swear!" But you did say "Why ask him? It isn't up to him. It's up to her, if she wants to stay in the marriage or not. Right now, she doesn't. She feels obligated." so here's why. Just to be clear, I am not saying she should ask him if he wants to stay married. I was suggesting she ask him how he wants her to get rid of it. 

Now, I think both of us--you and I--are making some assumptions. I will let you think about what you may or may not be assuming, but I know for a fact I was assuming "IF you really do want to get rid of it, and IF you really have changed inside (or are in the process of changing), and IF you really mean it..." So naturally it is entirely possible she doesn't really want to get rid of it and will put it off, or she hasn't really changed inside and is still self-focused, or she doesn't really mean it and it's just motions rather than being the real thing. I can not really tell if she means it or not based on her post, so what I thought was "Well you SAID you meant it so now you need to ACT like you actually do mean it." Actions need to match words! 

So my reasoning for asking him is that if her focus has been on herself and meeting her own needs, then she has not been focusing on what HE would need. This could be a turning point if she is honestly in the process of growing, but she can't read his mind! So the solution is not to assume more but rather to communicate non-judgmentally: what do you need? I'm willing and able to DO THAT and now that you've told me, I will do exactly that in order to help you heal. 



> It will take some counseling to figure out if she really wants to stay married. Not because of whatever she has with him, but because she wants to be with him. She likes to be with him. I don't know how you can go from the decision that he is bad enough that she can feel justified in cheating, to...actions that are almost unprepared to show him she loves only him and wants only him.
> 
> That's over. He is now and always will be, the second choice. First choice is in that tee shirt. That is obvious to me.


So I'm going to be silly here @2ntnuf -- women reserve the right to change their minds! LOL  

Okay in all seriousness, I think REAL change can come with real work done in counseling. Making promises and having willpower doesn't really do it, and neither does "seeing the light" or those kind of instant changes. REAL change is slower and gradual and it feels "unnatural" because natural lead to self-centeredness and cheating! So feeling unsteady and doing things differently is a good sign. Trying full transparency feels like you're naked in front of body-shaming critics, but actually BEING transparent over and over leads to it becoming easier and eventually leads to it "feeling" natural. 

So as long as someone is actually practicing what they're saying, I don't mind being patient and watching them try, watching it not be perfect the first time, watching them try again with a slight adjustment, doing better, and trying again. That's "how it goes." But the message I hear from what you wrote is that no matter what happens or how she grows or how he grows, that he'll always be second choice and they can never, ever love each other again. 

I have to admit, I disagree, and I'm living proof that it's not true. I DO think that it is VERY, *VERY* unusual for a couple to both be willing to work and change, but that doesn't mean he is forever consigned to second and she will never love him for him. She did once--he clearly has what it takes for her to love him. She lost track of that---and honestly I think people do this all the time! When people are dating...boy they make themselves look and smell good, they listen and laugh, they want to be together every minute, they invest money and time on each other...and love grows. Then they get married, have jobs, have kids, get bills and a mortgage, and they forget to keep looking and smelling good, and forget to listen and laugh, and forget to be together as often as humanly possible, and forget to invest time and money into each other...and love dies. Well, shoot! They already know all the weird habits the other guy has. They already have been through some good times and some bad times. They already started to create a life and a family. So they have ties!

At the time when the affair was just ending, yep the wayward goes through a period of "mourning" if you will. I think of it more like a period of withdrawal--continuing that addiction analogy. They had invested into their drug, and now they are withdrawing from the drug AND how the drug made them feel. Just like an addict, the feeling of being sober is different than the feeling of being high or drunk. BUT that doesn't mean that sober is "second" or that it isn't good (or great). It just means that it's not the same. And it's similar with love after infidelity. The "before love" was partially a pie-in-the-sky image of what you thought you had, and partially immature, and likely co-dependent. The "after love" is made of reality and is more healthy and mature. Thus it is not "high" but rather great, deep, interdependent, and real. But the "after love" is not second...it's just not the same!



> I do know, if anyone can help her and her marriage, you can. I just don't agree they should reconcile. It isn't for him. It's for her, right now. She lost her love and she is mourning. She's not really in love anymore, but knows no where else to turn.


Well, wow, high praise!  I am not sure if they can reconcile either. Based on what she's written I am not sure if anyone can tell.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Again, if you are not going to support the OP and help, don't post on their threads. It ain't that hard.


Blue, you can't fix a problem if you don't recognize the problem. The overall consensus is burning the shirt and ceremoniously maintaining the ashes is a bad idea. Who's to say we are not helping her by advising her against sometime that may very well be another slap in the face for her husband. According to her, he wants the shirt thrown away; not given a funeral. She can maneuver around his wishes at her own peril if she so wishes. My advise remains the same.


.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Throw it away.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Nevermoreagain said:


> He knows that the om had a picture of me wearing a particular shirt. I didn't give it to him, but he downloaded off my facebook page (I will never go on facebook again btw). My husband has asked me to get rid of it. Here is the question. What would you think if i made it kind of like a ceremony where i burned the shirt, Talk about how i feel that I am becoming a different person and how I want the person i was to die. Then i'll take the ashes of the shirt, mix them with dirt, and we can plant flower seeds to bring new life from the ashes?


Ceremony??? 
Why do you want to make a show out of it? 

.Just. Throw. It. Away!! No need to _tell_ your husband that you've become someone else.., just _*show*_ it to him!
Enough with words. Act immediately and throw it like now. 
He needs to see actions, not words and ceremonies.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> This is a good point, @2ntnuf, meaning that people find a way to do what they REALLY want to do, and they find a way to avoid what they don't really want to do even while they say out loud "I want to, I swear!" But you did say "Why ask him? It isn't up to him. It's up to her, if she wants to stay in the marriage or not. Right now, she doesn't. She feels obligated." so here's why. Just to be clear, I am not saying she should ask him if he wants to stay married. * I was suggesting she ask him how he wants her to get rid of it. *
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> You deserve high praise. I don't hold some resentment or anger toward waywards or former waywards, in general. Look at what I've posted here. That isn't the kind of thing a hater would post. It's simply realistic. I simply didn't get into a long discussion about the whys and wherefores. You and I did, but only because you asked and so many here seem to misunderstand. Why do I care if they understand? I know what I'm talking about.
> 
> Maybe you can 'splain that one to me?


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Nevermoreagain said:


> I'm not going to pretty this up, because there is nothing pretty about it. I had a several month emotional affair, email and phone (not that that makes a difference). I hurt the man who was my life and loved me so deeply. It's been over a year since he found out and we still deal with this and the pain ever day. He is doing better, but i'm not. I am so guilty and I hurt so bad for what i did. But here is my question.
> 
> He knows that the om had a picture of me wearing a particular shirt. I didn't give it to him, but he downloaded off my facebook page (I will never go on facebook again btw). My husband has asked me to get rid of it. Here is the question. What would you think if i made it kind of like a ceremony where i burned the shirt, Talk about how i feel that I am becoming a different person and how I want the person i was to die. Then i'll take the ashes of the shirt, mix them with dirt, and we can plant flower seeds to bring new life from the ashes?
> 
> I feel it symbolizes a lot, but do you think it would be upsetting to him? *I am so afraid that i am going to do something else to cause him pain, that I am scared to do anything.* We are both in Individual Therapy and Marriage Therapy, and Last week we talked about being more spontaneous. What do you think?


Your husband found out about the affair a year ago, and you still haven't gotten rid of the shirt??

Don't have any kind of ceremony for the shirt. That's ridiculous. The last thing your husband wants to see is you having some sort of funeral for your affair. The shirt reminds him of pain. Having a ceremony for the shirt would make him believe the shirt is still important to you, and therefore the affair is still important to you. Making flowers out of it would remind him of your affair every time he saw the garden! Toss it in the trash ASAP, let him witness it. If it's a super-expensive shirt, donate it somewhere. Let him witness this. If he doesn't witness it, he'll forever wonder if you lied about getting rid of the shirt and are secretly visiting it and reminiscing about your affair partner.

Men don't want long, drawn-out symbolism. They want immediate, decisive results.

I'd also like to address the words I bolded in your post. My cheater ex used to say almost that very thing to me, during what turned out to be a totally fake reconciliation. "I don't want to hurt you, I don't know what to do, I don't know what to say." It drove me nuts. If you're afraid to do something to cause your spouse pain, put in the work to figure out what causes him pain, and then don't do those things. The best thing you can do for your husband is to actually become a better person, not just talk endlessly about how you want to be a better person. Nobody ever became a better person by burning clothing.

How does that Roosevelt quote go:

"In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing."


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

@Nevermoreagain - for me, it was of all things, two fairly expensive coffee travel mugs. Several months after finding out about my husband's affair, I suddenly realised that they reminded me of her and that was why they p!ssed me off so much every time I saw them. And they smell funny. I said to my husband "This may be a bit wierd, but those (pointed at them) remind me of her. Can you get rid of them." My husband said OK and right then and there, took them and dumped in our charity box. I notice that the plastic lid of one of them seems to have been left behind and was reclaimed as a small frisbee thingie by my youngest, but now when I see it in the mud I remember that my husband didn't even blink when I asked him to get rid of them. So that's not a bad thing. 

This gesture is for your husband. If he is a ceremony type person, then ask him if he'd like to do that. If he isn't, then just get rid of it.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*I believe that you stand a far better chance at regaining your husband if you just simply lose the shirt without any fanfare or orchestraization whatsover!*


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

I think you should not make a huge deal of this. Tell your husband that you will do this for him RIGHT NOW and then do it. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Meanwhile, hopefully the shirt has -- by now -- gone bye-bye.


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

Nevermoreagain said:


> I'm not going to pretty this up, because there is nothing pretty about it. I had a several month emotional affair, email and phone (not that that makes a difference). I hurt the man who was my life and loved me so deeply. It's been over a year since he found out and we still deal with this and the pain ever day. He is doing better, but i'm not. I am so guilty and I hurt so bad for what i did. But here is my question.
> 
> He knows that the om had a picture of me wearing a particular shirt. I didn't give it to him, but he downloaded off my facebook page *(I will never go on facebook again btw)*. My husband has asked me to get rid of it. Here is the question. What would you think if i made it kind of like a ceremony where i burned the shirt, Talk about how i feel that I am becoming a different person and how I want the person i was to die. Then i'll take the ashes of the shirt, mix them with dirt, and we can plant flower seeds to bring new life from the ashes?
> 
> I feel it symbolizes a lot, but do you think it would be upsetting to him? I am so afraid that i am going to do something else to cause him pain, that I am scared to do anything. We are both in Individual Therapy and Marriage Therapy, and Last week we talked about being more spontaneous. What do you think?


First post, just two paragraphs in, and you've already earned my respect. Yeah, FB can be so destructive to relationships. It, like other social network sites, are used by millions to get ego kibbles from total strangers.:smnotworthy:

I think burning it is good enough. The further he distances himself from that memory, the better, so no need to bury it or plant anything with its ashes.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

She should be asking her therapist. 

I still don't understand where that tee shirt came from? It was an online affair, right? He sent it to her? Doesn't make sense.

Okay....O I C now. 

I never understand why folks seeing a therapist think they should ask a forum, if they should do something. What are you paying the therapist for? Don't trust the therapist? None of it makes sense.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> She should be asking her therapist.
> 
> I still don't understand where that tee shirt came from? It was an online affair, right? He sent it to her? Doesn't make sense.
> 
> ...


Because she wouldn't get to play the martyr in her self starring soap opera.Oh poor op,had to give up her other man and look how bravely she burns the shirt that was the other mans favourite,and look how she has forgiven her husband for making her have an affair.Why doesn't she just make a f****n home movie of the cremation ceremony and watch it every Saturday night.She will soon have plenty of free time if she continues to treat her husband like this because he will dump her.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

It sounds like a lot of drama, to me.  I'd just get rid of the shirt, and you will prove to your husband that you have changed...in your actions...one day at a time.


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## Nevermoreagain (Feb 12, 2017)

I didn't get rid of the shirt a year ago, because i had no idea that it reminded him of the affair. He just told me that a few days ago.


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## Nevermoreagain (Feb 12, 2017)

That's rich. You don't know me and don't know my motives. #1 The other man never said a word about that shirt. #2 My husband didn't make me give up anything. I did that on my own. Because i realized my stupidity and selfishness. I'm sorry that you have been hurt, but save your vitrol for the one who did. Not me.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Nevermoreagain said:


> I didn't get rid of the shirt a year ago, because i had no idea that it reminded him of the affair. He just told me that a few days ago.


Stop causing him long-lasting pain then.
He told you a few days ago and you should've simply thrown it away in THAT very moment. Why are you delaying this simple process? 

No need for complications.


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## Nevermoreagain (Feb 12, 2017)

It has...Ty for your advice. I realize now, that it was correct.


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## Nevermoreagain (Feb 12, 2017)

excellent suggestions, excellent advice.


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## Nevermoreagain (Feb 12, 2017)

Well, I did ask my therapist, and she thought it was a great idea. But I don't know if she has had an affair or been cheated on, and i wanted to get the opinion of people who have been in our situation. Not that i didn't trust her....But I wasn't sure she really knew. Which from the replies i got, she evidently didn't.


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## Nevermoreagain (Feb 12, 2017)

I hope this shows up in the right place this time. I wrote a long post before I replied to any tonight and for some reason i don't see it on the list. If this is a repeat, please forgive.

I think i am doing this wrong. Am I supposed to do a quote?


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

Nevermoreagain said:


> I hope this shows up in the right place this time. I wrote a long post before I replied to any tonight and for some reason i don't see it on the list. If this is a repeat, please forgive.
> 
> I think i am doing this wrong. Am I supposed to do a quote?


Hi honey,

When you want to reply to a certain poster, at the bottom of their post you can hit quote. That way it brings up what/who you are replying to (like right now it shows I'm replying to you) and it will make sense to all of us who you are talking to specifically. I hope that helps a little.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> You want to feel better?
> 
> Divorce your betrayed husband.
> 
> ...


And that's supposed to help her BS in what way, exactly? :scratchhead:


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> She should be asking her therapist.
> 
> I still don't understand where that tee shirt came from? It was an online affair, right? He sent it to her? Doesn't make sense.
> 
> ...


So, all your comments and advice were based on the fact that you didn't, actually, really _read_ the original post? 

Just to recap, she was wearing her shirt in an image on her Facebook page. The OM decided to download that image from her Facebook page.


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## cbnero (Dec 6, 2013)

Did you have a ceremony to burn one of your wedding photos when you were betraying your husband?

Sounds like your emotions are all over the place.

The EA was a terrible choice on your part. I think the only thing worse for your husband than the betrayal would be to have you stick around when you aren't really into him anymore. I've lived that life - having a wife who was trying to "fake it until you make it." And it was terrible on me. I guarantee your husband is going through the same feelings, the doubt and 2nd guessing about the entire marriage.

Not sure if you have kids. That would make it even worse for him if you do.

I don't have any advice on how to get your heart back into your marriage since I've never been in your shoes. Who knows if it's even possible.

I do have advice on what your husband is feeling. Like Plan B, and that he will forever have to live with it if he stays with you. And now he has a wife where who knows what her feelings really are. 

You'll have to figure out how to show him that you are sorry for hurting him and then act accordingly. The onus is on you to rebuild trust and fix what you broke. And if he can't do it, then accept responsibility for your actions and don't ruin him even more through a terrible divorce. I'd look at every day still married as a gift and do whatever you can to make it up to him. The grand theatrics won't mean as much as small things you could do on a daily basis to restore trust. Keep it simple.

Good luck, hope it works out.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> So, all your comments and advice were based on the fact that you didn't, actually, really _read_ the original post?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> Thanks MattMatt. You keep trying. :wink2:





MattMatt said:


> And that's supposed to help her BS in what way, exactly? :scratchhead:


 I know it's tough sometimes to read reading. But, this is writing, so you should get it. Isn't that your job? Seems like you'd be more often correct than incorrect. I'm not sure what you find so unintelligible? 



> un·in·tel·li·gi·ble
> [ˌənənˈteləjəb(ə)l]
> 
> ADJECTIVE
> ...


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

So have you gotten rid of the shirt yet??



Affaircare said:


> I think it is telling that the folks who are saying "oh go ahead and burn it!" are the other wayward people, and the folks who are saying "if you do that you'll remind him and hurt him" are the betrayed people.


BINGO. Having some ceremony is a BAD idea. I also think you need to shop around for a better therapist.

My husband had to get rid of a couch and a jar of change. He did so with NO QUESTIONS ASKED. I didn't want to have anything to do with them or where they went or anything ever again. EVER. In ANY way. If he'd offered to do some weird ceremony I'd have probably popped him one.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

My dear, I really feel your frustration and confusion. I think your therapist is right that a ceremony is a very good idea. It will help you let go of the feelings that you have toward your other man. In any relationship, even an inappropriate one, there has to be grief when the relationship ends. Burning that shirt and planting the flowers from its ashes will be a wonderful reminder to both of you even though your relationship with your other man is dead, that death has given rebirth to a new relationship with your husband, one that has the potential to be far better than even you could have imagined.

I really can't give you more advice than that which I've already given you: please take care of yourself and be gentle with your husband and yourself. You may not feel like you can survive without your other man but I promise you you can. It will pass.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> My dear, I really feel your frustration and confusion. I think your therapist is right that a ceremony is a very good idea. It will help you let go of the feelings that you have toward your other man. In any relationship, even an inappropriate one, there has to be grief when the relationship ends. Burning that shirt and planting the flowers from its ashes will be a wonderful reminder to both of you even though your relationship with your other man is dead, that death has given rebirth to a new relationship with your husband, one that has the potential to be far better than even you could have imagined.
> 
> I really can't give you more advice than that which I've already given you: please take care of yourself and be gentle with your husband and yourself. You may not feel like you can survive without your other man but I promise you you can. It will pass.


Yes, because it's all about HER after all.









What horrible advice from a BS standpoint. Guaranteed to make the BS kick her a$$ right out of the house I guess, though, which might be for the best.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

You have a good heart and you mean well but do not burn the shirt. Just throw it away. People deal with issues differently and you need to do what your husband asked of you. 

If my husband had an affair and I took him back I would never ever want to be reminded of it again. Stop keeping the affair alive! I don't get why people do this. Stop it, end it, it's over throw away the shirt the end. It's over.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> My dear, I really feel your frustration and confusion. I think your therapist is right that a ceremony is a very good idea. It will help you let go of the feelings that you have toward your other man. In any relationship, even an inappropriate one, there has to be grief when the relationship ends. Burning that shirt and planting the flowers from its ashes will be a wonderful reminder to both of you even though your relationship with your other man is dead, that death has given rebirth to a new relationship with your husband, one that has the potential to be far better than even you could have imagined.
> 
> 
> 
> I really can't give you more advice than that which I've already given you: please take care of yourself and be gentle with your husband and yourself. You may not feel like you can survive without your other man but I promise you you can. It will pass.




If you need to have a ceremony and burn sh*t to let go of the feelings you have for the man you cheated on your husband with... that blows my mind. But if this is true, and you need to do this to let go of feelings, I suggest you don't invite your husband to that. I mean come on...


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> Yes, because it's all about HER after all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I believe (and hope) Ella was being tongue in cheek. Ella knows NMA needs to at least act like she's over the the guy and camouflage what's left of the feelings. Its like a job you quit to take another that didn't work out and you want to go back to your old employer. You don't go back showing and belly aching about how much you miss the job you them for.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> If you need to have a ceremony and burn sh*t to let go of the feelings you have for the man you cheated on your husband with... that blows my mind. But if this is true, and you need to do this to let go of feelings, I suggest you don't invite your husband to that. I mean come on...


I agree it's for the best not to show your husband, unless he wants the ceremony too. I was under the impression that he did. If he doesn't want to take part in said ceremony, the flowers will just be a reminder to you, of your own rebirth. But I heard the shirt is gone now anyway, so what does it matter?

I'm basing my advice off of my own experience. I did have a (small) ceremony for the memento I associated with my OM. It was a Celtic knot ring. He said it was meant to bind my soul to his, that is was a symbol of my submission to him. After I left intensive outpatient therapy I, as I'm sure you read, said a little prayer and tossed it over a bridge. It was very symbolic. The OM thought he could destroy me, but instead I destroyed the "bond" he had tried to make with me, that I willingly latched onto. Tossing the ring that he (said he) imbued with his "energies" helped so much. I was purposefully denying him power over me and was rebelling against the idea that he could use his ring to control me. I felt so much lighter after that, as though I was no longer "tainted" by him or his influences


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

VladDracul said:


> I believe (and hope) Ella was being tongue in cheek.


Nope, she wasn't.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I agree it's for the best not to show your husband, unless he wants the ceremony too. I was under the impression that he did. If he doesn't want to take part in said ceremony, the flowers will just be a reminder to you, of your own rebirth. But I heard the shirt is gone now anyway, so what does it matter?
> 
> I'm basing my advice off of my own experience. I did have a (small) ceremony for the memento I associated with my OM. It was a Celtic knot ring. He said it was meant to bind my soul to his, that is was a symbol of my submission to him. After I left intensive outpatient therapy I, as I'm sure you read, said a little prayer and tossed it over a bridge. It was very symbolic. The OM thought he could destroy me, but instead I destroyed the "bond" he had tried to make with me, that I willingly latched onto. Tossing the ring that he (said he) imbued with his "energies" helped so much. I was purposefully denying him power over me and was rebelling against the idea that he could use his ring to control me. I felt so much lighter after that, as though I was no longer "tainted" by him or his influences




I think that even suggesting a ceremony to the BS is outrageous.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

katiecrna said:


> I think that even suggesting a ceremony to the BS is outrageous.


Outrageous? It is not outrageous.

Had my wife suggested something of this kind back in the day, I'd have been in favour of it.

Could this be because I am an ageing hippy who is into that kind of thing? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

Probably.


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## Stack (Mar 14, 2016)

Nevermoreagain said:


> He knows that the om had a picture of me wearing a particular shirt. I didn't give it to him, but he downloaded off my facebook page (I will never go on facebook again btw). My husband has asked me to get rid of it.
> 
> I feel it symbolizes a lot, but do you think it would be upsetting to him? I am so afraid that i am going to do something else to cause him pain, that I am scared to do anything. We are both in Individual Therapy and Marriage Therapy, and Last week we talked about being more spontaneous. What do you think?


It depends... are you burning it for him or for you? 

If it's for you, don't include him in your ceremony. 

If you're doing it for him, get rid of it and don't say another word, if or when, he mentions it. 

Stop thinking men think like women.


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