# LD wife has turned me off



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I guess I just don't have the patients that some of you other men do...I'm tired of the games.

I don't feel that I need to or have to wait for some extended period of time to get my sex-life back. We have identified the issues and have responded to them by addressing them head on.

Being that she is LD, she is now on hormone therapy, getting her levels back to "normal".

I was a bit of a beta man, but have changed what was most notable and can't see this as why I am not getting sex. I would think any normal woman would be thrilled with what I have to offer. 

Her depression is my biggest battle to deal with...
She has been in a rut for a couple of weeks now and it has greatly affected how she interacts with me. If she responds to anything I am doing, it is only momentary and then she goes back to ignoring me. I made an effort not to touch her yesterday which she didn't seem to mind at all. At bed time, she turns her back to me and is ready to drift off. If I lean over to kiss her, she only allows a peck and that's it. Weeks earlier, we had identified that we use to kiss passionately and wondered where it had gone. I knew it wasn't anything I was doing that made it go away...she is the one controlling this. She is only allowing these short kisses. It's just another example of how she doesn't have any desire towards me. 
The last time I went out with my co-workers for some pizza and beers, my wife threw a fit.
While I was at work, I sent her a text message to tell her I was going out with my co-workers, so she would have to fend for herself for dinner. She never responded at the time.
As the evening was progressing, she calls me around 10pm and inquires where I am at. I was at a bar with my co-workers, having a drink and enjoying conversation. She gets upset and wants to come pick up the T/A. I explain to her that I have had less than 1 beer per hour and I am perfectly fine to drive, and will be home soon. She gets mad and hangs up. She calls a couple of times only to hang up. She then texts me...
thanks
for pushing me...i deserve it
I guess this is it

What the hell is that supposed to mean? She has threatened suicide in the past and then uses texts like this to manipulate me. I am tired of her using this to pull at my strings to get the response she is seeking.

I am at the point that if this isn't going to work naturally, putting additional pressure in areas are only going to bring temporary happiness. I envy you men that have wives that actually show attraction towards you. I can't say my wife has ever grabbed me in her arms and told me she loves me. That type of affection is foreign to her. I show it to her, but it is never reciprocated. This has been such a one sided relationship for far too long.
I am now becoming angry with her attitude and the manner in which she treats me. She is turning me off from her...not just emotionally, but physically as well. I'm done with the roommate relationship. The more I think about it the more pissed off I get.


----------



## mildlyperplexed (Feb 3, 2013)

Your wife may feel differently but this is my experience with hormonal issues:

I got irrationally angry and sad, I felt even worse because I knew it was irrational. I couldn't control it and it was totally out of character and I felt lost and crazy because I knew what I was feeling wasn't right. I was terrified my husband was going to leave me and got really clingy but I was horrible to be around. I also knew that I was horrible to be around! My sex drive went totally down the pan (again not like me at all) and my mind felt fuzzy. Sometimes it felt like I couldn't think at all, normal activities like reading or playing a game were beyond me and it was completely terrifying.

Glad I didn't do anything stupid because it did pass after a couple of years and I'm all back to normal. This may not have any baring on your problems but if it sounds at all familiar she really needs your support and reassurance that it will get better.


----------



## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

I would have a serious talk with her about what your needs are and find out what her needs are.

Take her out for a beer, pizza and a night on the town, just the two of you.

Get her to go with you for marriage counseling.

Randomly surprise her with flowers, romantic card and her fav chocolates. Nice back and foot rub and cuddle on the couch. Make her feel really special again. If this does nothing, then consider moving on. Many women out there who would love to be with a guy like you.


----------



## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

Its a marathon, not a sprint. You have every right to take some time for yourself, in fact, your attraction to her depends on it. When you put pursuit of IndyTMI's life's purpose on a shelf to accommodate Mrs. IndyTMI you are weakened and she feels less secure. This is a mantra that I keep handy as I get my share of shet tests too.

Her emotions are a hurricane, her soul a saboteur. Think of yourself as a bulwark against her tempest. When she grasps for a pillar to steady herself against the whipping winds or yearns for an authority figure to foil her worst instincts, it is you who has to be there…strong, solid, unshakeable and immoveable.



> thanks
> for pushing me...i deserve it
> I guess this is it


Tell her to knock it off and stop being a brat and you'll be pushing alright when you get to the love nest.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> I guess I just don't have the patients that some of you other men do...I'm tired of the games.
> 
> I don't feel that I need to or have to wait for some extended period of time to get my sex-life back. We have identified the issues and have responded to them by addressing them head on.
> 
> ...


eh, Mr. Indy, I am sorry I am new here, but, for how many years have you been trying to make serious efforts to save your marriage from sexlessness? 

Because, if it's been going for more than 5 years with no serious efforts from _her_ part, then I think it's not worth it..


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> I would have a serious talk with her about what your needs are and find out what her needs are.
> 
> Take her out for a beer, pizza and a night on the town, just the two of you.


Yea, we've gone through this before...she ends up telling me that she can't meet my needs. That I should move on. I think she is right.



> Get her to go with you for marriage counseling.


She is going to an individual counselor and I had a one on one session with her as well, after that, the counselor said she didn't need to speak with me any more, just needs to have sessions with my wife. I have suggested marriage counseling, but nothing has come of it. I suppose if it is going to happen, I must be the one to get it arranged.



> Randomly surprise her with flowers, romantic card and her fav chocolates. Nice back and foot rub and cuddle on the couch. Make her feel really special again. If this does nothing, then consider moving on. Many women out there who would love to be with a guy like you.


I've tried those in the past without much positive reaction, she doesn't like to cuddle, but I do. Most all of my efforts go either unnoticed or at the very least, unappreciated.


----------



## Pravius (Dec 12, 2012)

Indy if you read any of my posts, I am with you. In a different way but I am there. Have you ever looked into Borderline Personality Disorder, sounds an awful like my wife. Anyway brother, just wanted to let you know you are not alone and even though the situation sucks ass, you are in good company


----------



## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Tell her you need time to think and do your own thing because she isn't meeting your needs or making any real effort. It's almost like she doesn't care or is seeing someone else........

If she's not going to change for the better of your relationship, which is supposed to be 50 / 50, then move on. She is wasting your time.

Many women out there that love sex, cuddling, going out, are kind, caring and also let you go out with the boys.


----------



## Persimmon (Feb 4, 2013)

I went into a serious depression several years ago with the death of my father, and my husband and I had some of the same issues. Just remember her depression is neurological, and she can't just wish herself out of it. You can't just will somebody to 'change out of it for the better of your relationship' or make them. It takes healing. 

For me-I couldn't stand to be touched and the thought of sex repulsed me (may have been because of the medication). At the same time a resented and hated myself because I couldn't be what my husband needed. 

He had a lot of resentment towards me for my depression because I wasn't meeting "his needs." It sucks to be stuck in this position, for both parties. I felt miserable and unhappy, then hated myself for being miserable and unhappy.... Remember that marriage may be 50/50... but not all the time. There are going to be times when you give more of yourself for her sake, and it should be reciprocated when you are in need. 

It sounds like she loves you, and she also is deeply down on herself for not being what you need. All I can say is be there for her, understand she may be needing you right now (even though it feels she is pushing you away), and in the end she will love you even more for it.

It may take time, understanding, and counseling. As for that text, yes it's a bit manipulative, TALK to her about it. She's lashing out because she's feeling abandoned. Help her understand you aren't abandoning her, and that it's unnecessary to send you texts of such nature.

I wish you the best!


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> Tell her you need time to think and do your own thing because she isn't meeting your needs or making any real effort. It's almost like she doesn't care or is seeing someone else........
> 
> If she's not going to change for the better of your relationship, which is supposed to be 50 / 50, then move on. She is wasting your time.
> 
> Many women out there that love sex, cuddling, going out, are kind, caring and also let you go out with the boys.


I think she just doesn't care. When I made my initial concerns known months ago, she did make an effort to show she cared, but she doesn't really care and it ultimately shows. She can't keep up with the act too long, as she falls back into her old self.
I know there isn't anyone else in her life...she is not so smart when it comes to electronic devices and always needs my help to do simple tasks. 

I've asked her to contribute financially, by getting a job to help us secure a house in the near future, but she kind of just fades away from those conversations. She hasn't even attempted to find anything. 
I did finally get her to start a hobby. Well, it is belly dance lessons. She has only been to one class and seems to like it so far. She sees where they also offer Pilates classes. I'm up for her taking these if it helps me out as well.
I don't want this to turn into something she sees she can benefit from, but does nothing to improve our relationship.

As to why I don't think she really cares about me......

Being post-menopausal, she has recently got her hormone levels checked and has been receiving shots to get her back to "normal". She is taking a combination of Estrogen and Testosterone. Over the past two weeks, the hormones have caused her to have increased lubrication and she has complained about having crusty underwear and needing to change more often.
A couple of days ago, she mentioned that she had some spotting occur. The following day she had what she thought was a full fledged period. She texts me, "yea, definitely done with hormones! Full on period." I told her to contact her gyno, but his office was already closed for the day. I researched it online and found it is a normal occurrence, and that it is just a temporary effect of the hormones. 
She has not let me touch her since this has happened. When I have tried, she comes up with some issue with her kitty and it can't be messed with. 
All she is leaving me with at bedtime is the option to spoon and give her sticky buns. I'll pass!
With her acting like this, I really don't want to touch her....
I certainly feel it is time to press her with the MAP. 
I also want to push marriage counseling, as I feel the truth will come out that she doesn't love me as she should and I am at this point in her life, nothing more than a provider.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Persimmon said:


> I went into a serious depression several years ago with the death of my father, and my husband and I had some of the same issues. Just remember her depression is neurological, and she can't just wish herself out of it. You can't just will somebody to 'change out of it for the better of your relationship' or make them. It takes healing.
> 
> For me-I couldn't stand to be touched and the thought of sex repulsed me (may have been because of the medication). At the same time a resented and hated myself because I couldn't be what my husband needed.
> 
> ...


If you only knew my wife a bit more, your post would have read much differently.

Throughout our relationship, when she gets mad, angry, pissed or whatever, she losses control of herself and lashes out at me in a manner that is not conducive to marriage. All of the hurtful, resentful things she has said up til now would have driven most men far away, long ago. I stayed around, thinking I had unconditional love for her. What that has really got me is a marriage that has continued to be as it currently is...me being unhappy with our marriage and her just passing the time away...waiting for the end to come.
She has never apologized for her actions toward me. She said one time that she didn't want to sound insincere, because she knows she'll do it again...claims she can't control it.
She lashed out, not because she felt abandoned, but because she felt she was loosing control of me.

Her mother had mental illness, had shock treatments and such, but that was back in the 50's and 60's. She went into some form of shock after she came home from school to find her husband in his undies with some 18 year old guy, right out on the living room floor. My wife sometimes questions if she has any form of mental illness that her mother may have had.

I really don't question my wife's mental state, more so of her maturity. I found she was never corrected growing up...she could say and do most anything and not get in trouble from it. Seems like she has taken that and carried it into our marriage, but I will not stand for her inability to show me respect.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Mr. Indy. You seemed to know already that your efforts has very little percentage of succeeding. But you make those efforts anyway. That is admirable. You can't say that you never tried. But with no lovin' in her soul, and no bonking in your bed, you can't say you're satisfied. Nobody would fault you for not trying. You want a wife not a roommate. Think about it Mr. Indy. And good luck.


----------



## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

You have to ask yourself, do you want to spend "the rest of your life" with this woman?

That means never apologizing, being immature, controlling, little to NO sex, possible mental issues (genes) that her mom had, lashing out and saying things she shouldn't, etc.

Or you "could" divorce her, find another woman that has a healthy sex drive and trusts you, isn't controlling, kind, and willing to work on issues together like a marriage should.

The soul searching and decision is yours, whatever it might be, make the right choice.


----------



## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

Sorry to read this IndyTMI, a while back your posts had become a little more optimistic.

As said above... you really have worked hard on your marriage... but you need your W's co-operation and you don't seem to have it.

Marriage does require 'work' (time & effort). but that work should be fun and loving.

Maybe you have come to another of lifes 'forks in the road'.. maybe this time you need to take the path that's right for indyTMI...not the path that's right for MR & Mrs indyTMI.

You've been doing Athols stuff haven't you? What do you think he would tell you right now?


----------



## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

You really did put in the effort Indy, maybe it is time to move on and take care of yourself. It sounds like you have hit the breaking point. Sigh-she had her chances you offered.


----------



## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

(note I havent read the whole thread)

I'm with you too. The sexlessness of it sucks. I'm at a point where I'm quickly losing attraction to my wife because she is so LD.

But I dont think the sexlessness is intertwined with your wife's calls for help.

A term I've seen used before, which is applicable, is "wife speak". You don't seem to be fluent in it yet. Your wife will never tell you directly what is on her mind. You need to learn to interpret her words, actions, tones, mannerisms to glean the real meaning of what she's saying. 

Once you are really able to understand what she is saying and how she is feeling, you can start being a truely empathetic listener. Which is what you wife wants out of you.

The very very very important part is this: You can't be a good listener because you want sex. You can't relate the two like this. You need to be a good listener because that's what you want to do. You can't attach an outcome to it. Because you'll be disappointed and resentful when you don't get your expected outcome (this is exactly what it sounds like you are doing right now).

Have you read "the way of the superior man" by david deida???

Note 2, my comments are more of the "sticking it out with her" mindset. If you choose to start moving on, I believe the comments are still worthwhile and important skills to be in a sucessful relationship....


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Saki said:


> (note I havent read the whole thread)
> 
> I'm with you too. The sexlessness of it sucks. I'm at a point where I'm quickly losing attraction to my wife because she is so LD.
> 
> ...


I have literally put all of my own priorities on the back-burner to address her issues. She just doesn't communicate her feelings to me like I do with her. I am an open book when it comes to discussing things, but she clams up and won't elaborate on much of anything.
She is really confusing me lately...for the past two weeks she has made herself fairly inaccessible for sex, no matter what I have done to show her my interest. The one night I pay her no attention except for a good night back massage is the night she decides to all of a sudden jump on top of me and ride me to O. We didn't get to enjoy any foreplay or anything, she just jumps on and grabs my manhood in her hand and proceeds to have her way with me. I certainly didn't mind. Luckily for her, I'm easily aroused. I was just thrown back a little, as she always needs foreplay before we go at it, at least that's what she's always needed prior to this.
It bugs me that this didn't feel passionate at all...just felt like some great sex. There was no kissing or anything intimate about it...just us both getting our rocks off. She climaxed before I did, but she did ride me out until I finished.
I just don't get it...I suppose the hormone treatments are doing her some good and she may be coming out of her low mood, I appreciate her interest in sex, but I need more than just the physical connection to feel satisfied and complete. If she would simply respond to my touches, reciprocate once in a while...show me throughout the day that she acknowledges my advances. Anything would be better than the cold fish syndrome...


----------



## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Do you believe that her sexual availability is something you have control over?

And, btw, at least yours will ride it out for you if she climaxes first.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I don't know if this is going to ultimately make a difference where we are both satisfied in the relationship, but she finally picked up her prescriptions. The testosterone is in a cream form and is rubbed into the skin each day. There were no instructions that came with the cream, they simply supplied them in syringes. I did a search online and found this...

Guide to Applying Testosterone Cream for Women - YouTube

I showed my wife and she got a huge smile on her face. She said I will be applying the cream each evening. Sometimes she touches me when I'm applying the cream. I asked her if she knows what it means to have an increased libido. She did not, other than the obvious. I explained that I see it as an increase in desire. It is desire I am seeking from her. Is this going to solve my problems? Probably not, but it is a step in the right direction. Her participation in sex has most noticeably changed...no corpse sex any longer.
She definitely has come out of her rut and is thinking positive at the moment. She is currently at her belly dance lesson. She is supposed to show me what she has learned so far once she gets home.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I've read this thread and wonder if depression is the correct diagnosis for your W's behavior. The way you describe her sounds like she has borderline personality disorder. You have described 1,2,5 and 8; and you stated your wife's mother had a mental illness back in the BAD old days of electro shock therapy.


1. Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment
2. A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation
3. Identity disturbance, such as a significant and persistent unstable self-image or sense of self
4. Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating)
5. Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior
6. Emotional instability due to significant reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)
7. Chronic feelings of emptiness
8. Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)
9. Transient, stress-related paranoid thoughts or severe dissociative symptoms

years ago, I mentored a teenager who essentially grew up in foster care who was eventually diagnoses with BPD. She was a bottomless pit of unsatisfiable need. She was also low functioning so she wasn't clever enough to make those who cared for her feel blamed for not meeting her needs. More functioning and intelligent BPD are the classic gas-lighters. 

The reason I bring this up is because I do not advocate anyone staying in a relationship with someone with BPD unless there is SIGNIFICANT "owning" taking place. And, significant owning doesn't usually take place for YEARS and YEARS of countless failed relationship, hitting rock bottom over and over again. The very nature of BPD prevents them from owning their tendency/compulsion to blame anyone and everything on someone other then themselves. A person who does not accept blame cannot alter their behavior to avoid the same thing happening over and over again. Think of the woman who gets into relationships with men who abuse her. After a few times, one has to wonder why they keep falling for abusive men? But a woman who lacks a sense of responsibility simply blames ALL men for being abusive.

My advice, therefore, is to get a clear and current diagnosis and if it is BPD, leave. End it because it will take years YEARS for her to be stable enough to be the kind of life partner you deserve.

Just like all women should stay away from abusive men, all men should stay away from BPD women. Yes, they are really that bad.


----------



## Daneosaurus (Dec 2, 2012)

Yeah, I pretty much agree with everything Anon Pink said. It takes YEARS for someone with BPD to change. It is also VERY similar to an abusive relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## blueskies30 (Jan 27, 2010)

Cre8ify said:


> Its a marathon, not a sprint. You have every right to take some time for yourself, in fact, your attraction to her depends on it. When you put pursuit of IndyTMI's life's purpose on a shelf to accommodate Mrs. IndyTMI you are weakened and she feels less secure. This is a mantra that I keep handy as I get my share of shet tests too.
> 
> Her emotions are a hurricane, her soul a saboteur. Think of yourself as a bulwark against her tempest. When she grasps for a pillar to steady herself against the whipping winds or yearns for an authority figure to foil her worst instincts, it is you who has to be there…strong, solid, unshakeable and immoveable.
> 
> ...



My exp with "knock it off" just fuels the irrational anger


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Well, we've gone from me applying the cream directly to the outside of her labia, which only happened the first four nights, to her now applying it to the inside of her legs with no involvement from me.
It looks like being aroused every night of the week is too much for her. Each night I applied it, she would become aroused which escalated to sex. She has this weird issue of not wanting to have sex the night before ANY appointment, regardless of the time of the appointment. It stems from her not being able to sleep sometimes.
Yesterday, she went to a trial class for Pilates. She enjoyed the session, so she signed up for a 4 week class on Wednesdays. She told me she was starting to really feel good about herself and wanted to stay physically fit because it keeps her emotional spirits up.
That is all good, but she does seem to be somewhat pulling away from me again. As mentioned above, she has started to distance herself from allowing me to apply the Testosterone cream. What a bummer. She initially told me I would be applying it each evening. 
While we are sitting on the love seat in the evening, I reach over and stroke her thigh, leg, and lower back. I do this nearly every evening, as she does seem to enjoy it, but I rarely ever get it reciprocated. Last night, while doing the usual, I tell her that I really like to receive touches from her. She responds in a somewhat aggravated mood, "Yes, I know IndyTMI!"  She never did touch me.
She brings up that Valentine's day is tomorrow and wondered where we were going to go eat. I'm thinking White Castle!
I would say I'm batting about 20% when it comes to me actually being touched as I'd like. Occasionally, If I grab her hand and guide it there, she will follow through, but usually will pull her hand back and the touches stop. 

So, last night as we hop into bed, she asks me for the Testosterone cream, as I keep it on my side of the bed, since I was the initial one applying it. I asked if I get to apply it, she said, "No, I just want to put it on and go to sleep". I get a small good night peck and that was that. I am having a difficult time with this hot and cold thing. 

I actually made a reservation for a really nice place we have never ate at yet. Hopefully, the food is good and all goes well.


----------



## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

IndyTMI said:


> While we are sitting on the love seat in the evening, I reach over and stroke her thigh, leg, and lower back. I do this nearly every evening, as she does seem to enjoy it, but I rarely ever get it reciprocated.


Why do you do this? (as in, what is your motivation? Are you expecting something when you do this?)



IndyTMI said:


> She never did touch me.
> She brings up that Valentine's day is tomorrow and wondered where we were going to go eat. I'm thinking White Castle!





IndyTMI said:


> I actually made a reservation for a really nice place we have never ate at yet. Hopefully, the food is good and all goes well.


What do you mean by all goes well?

Why are you making a reservation at a nice place after you say you don't want to eat at a nice place? 

In your mind, is the place you eat at related at all to your probability of getting laid?


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

AM2013 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> She is wanting your attention. The threatening suicide thing is about her wanting your attention.


It's far from a healthy way to grab attention, though.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Saki said:


> Why do you do this? (as in, what is your motivation? Are you expecting something when you do this?)


I enjoy touching her, she enjoys it as well, she just doesn't seem to care about how I would feel if she reciprocated. We have discussed this previously and she seemed at the time to understand and comply.




> What do you mean by all goes well?


I mean having awesome sex with my wife. The thing happily married couples do.



> Why are you making a reservation at a nice place after you say you don't want to eat at a nice place?


Because I am weak and usually give my wife everything she wants. I am really having difficulty with this whole Map 180 scenario thing I'm supposed to be following. Because my wife is so sporatic with her emotions and mindset, hot one day and cold the next...I never know when I'm supposed to continue with the MAP, especially if at the time, she is being the perfect wife. Reading a couple of other threads about Bipolar and BPD, I think my wife fits these somewhat and want to verify exactly what is going on with her. She can be the perfect awesome wife one day and the next thing you know, something small sets her off and she acts like a 13 year old, full off rage and anger, nothing is held back about what she will or could say to hurt me. It's quite painful, but I understand she does have some sort of issue that allows her to so easily punch through the civil boundary. Some days she is just depressed and not much of anything can bring her out.



> In your mind, is the place you eat at related at all to your probability of getting laid?


No, but the fact today is Valentine's day does play into my hopes to get laid. It is also the same expectation my wife has, as we have discussed this very thing because during our last anniversary, we were in what I considered a sexless time. Seeing as how she was withholding sex, I wasn't really expecting it, even though we rented a cottage by the river. I had a bit too much wine and fell asleep while she was getting ready for bed. She held that against me for some time, yet she did nothing to try and wake me so I could at least brush my teeth and do the usual stuff before bed. She just left me laying there in my cloths until I woke up around 4am wondering what the hell happened. I now see it for what it is, but for some time, she was able to hold this over my head. It is now understood by both of us that during these special dates, sex is a must.

Her hormone treatments are certainly helping her out, as now when we play around or have PIV, she usually finishes first, whereas before the treatments, she would only orgasm about 25% of the time with manual stimulation. Oral was the only for sure way to make sure she got her orgasm. And yet again, she does not reciprocate. Since we had the initial talk months ago, I've only received 1.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

IndyTMI said:


> Reading a couple of other threads about Bipolar and BPD, I think my wife fits these somewhat and want to verify exactly what is going on with her.


Indy, if BPD is involved, your best chance of obtaining a candid professional evaluation is to see your own psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself. Meanwhile, while you're waiting for an appointment, you may want to read more about the traits so you can spot the red flags for both of those disorders. 

I am not a psychologist but I did live with a BPDer exW for 15 years and I've taken care of a bipolar foster son for longer than that. Moreover, I took both of them to a series of psychologists for 15 years. Based on those experiences, I have found twelve clear differences between the two disorders.

*One difference* is that the mood swings are on two separate spectra having very different polar extremes. A bipolar-1 sufferer swings between _mania_ and _depression_ and a bipolar-2 sufferer swings between depression and normality (with very little or no mania). In contrast, a BPDer flips back and forth between _loving you_ and _devaluing you_.

*A second difference* is seen in the frequency of mood changes. Bipolar mood swings are very slow because they are caused by gradual changes in body chemistry. They are considered rapid if as many as four occur in a year. In contrast, four BPD mood changes can easily occur in four days. The latter therefore seems consistent with your description of mood changes occurring several times a week.

*A third difference* is seen in duration. Whereas bipolar moods typically last a week or two, BPD rages typically last only a few hours (and rarely as long as 36 hours). Again, these short-duration rages seem consistent with with the tantrums you describe.

*A fourth difference* is seen in the speed with which the mood change develops. Whereas a bipolar change typically will build slowly over two weeks, a BPD change typically occurs in less than a minute -- often in only 10 seconds -- because it is event-triggered by some innocent comment or action. 

*A fifth difference* is that, whereas bipolar can be treated very successfully in at least 80% of victims by swallowing a pill, BPD cannot be managed by medication because it arises from childhood damage to the emotional core -- not from a change in body chemistry.

*A sixth difference* is that, whereas bipolar disorder can cause people to be irritable and obnoxious during the manic phase, it does not rise to the level of meanness and vindictiveness you see when a BPDer is splitting you black. That difference is HUGE: while a manic person may regard you as an irritation, a BPDer can perceive you as Hitler and will treat you accordingly.

*A seventh difference* is that, whereas a bipolar sufferer is not usually angry, a BPDer is filled with anger that has been carried inside since early childhood. You only have to say or do some minor thing to trigger a sudden release of that anger.

*An eight difference* is that a bipolar sufferer typically is capable of tolerating intimacy when he is not experiencing strong mania or depression. In contrast, BPDers have such a weak and unstable self image that (except for the brief infatuation period) they cannot tolerate intimacy for long before feeling engulfed and suffocated by your personality.

BPDers therefore will create arguments over nothing as a way to push you away and give them breathing room. Hence, it is not surprising that they tend to create the very worst arguments immediately following the very best of times, i.e., right after an intimate evening or a great weekend spent together.

*A ninth difference* is that the thinking and behavior of a BPDer includes more mental departures from reality (called "dissociation") wherein "feelings create facts." That is, BPDers typically do not intellectually challenge their intense feelings. Instead, they accept them as accurately reflecting your intentions and motivations. In contrast, bipolar disorder tends to be more neurotic in that the mood swings tend to be based more on extreme exaggerations of fact, not the creation of "fact" out of thin air based solely on feelings. 

*A tenth difference* is that a bipolar sufferer -- whether depressed or manic -- usually is able to trust you if he or she knows you well. Untreated BPDers, however, are unable to trust for an extended period. Before they can trust others, they must first learn how to trust and love themselves. Sadly, this lack of trust means there is no foundation on which to build a relationship. Moreover -- and I learned this the hard way -- when people cannot trust you, you can never trust them because they can turn on you at any time -- and almost certainly will.

*An eleventh difference* is that, whereas BPDers are always convinced they are "The Victim," bipolar sufferers usually have a much stronger self image. BPDers therefore have a strong need to validate that false self image by blaming every misfortune on the spouse.

*Finally, a twelfth difference* is that, although bipolar sufferers are emotionally unstable, they generally are not immature or childlike. BPDers, in contrast, are so immature that their emotional development typically is frozen at about age four. This is why they have a very fragile self image and have difficulty controlling their emotions. 

Yet, despite these twelve clear differences between the two disorders, many people confuse the two. One source of this confusion seems to be the fact that these two disorders often occur together. A recent study (pub. 2008) found that about half of bipolar-I sufferers also have full-blown BPD.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I've read this thread and wonder if depression is the correct diagnosis for your W's behavior. The way you describe her sounds like she has borderline personality disorder. You have described 1,2,5 and 8; and you stated your wife's mother had a mental illness back in the BAD old days of electro shock therapy.
> 
> 
> 1. Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment
> ...





Uptown said:


> Indy, if BPD is involved, your best chance of obtaining a candid professional evaluation is to see your own psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself. Meanwhile, while you're waiting for an appointment, you may want to read more about the traits so you can spot the red flags for both of those disorders.
> 
> I am not a psychologist but I did live with a BPDer exW for 15 years and I've taken care of a bipolar foster son for longer than that. Moreover, I took both of them to a series of psychologists for 15 years. Based on those experiences, I have found twelve clear differences between the two disorders.
> 
> ...


:smthumbup:
:smthumbup:
:iagree:

What great advice and tidbits of wisdom! 

Thank you very much!

These all above are GREAT POSTS and should be put in Stickies!
These should be followed and it's all very logical.
Consider this:

*You don't want to get beaten up? DO NOT marry a physically abusive partner
You don't like alcohols? DO NOT marry a person who likes booze
You don't like sex? DO NOT marry a normal person who wants sex
You don't like heterosexual sex? DO NOT marry a heterosexual person
You want to live in luxury? DO NOT marry a poor man
You want to be happy? DO NOT marry a BPD and Bipolar sufferer* 

It is NOT SHALLOW if you wish to preserve your sanity and well-being by avoiding getting into a marriage where you are certain to become unhappy. AND TO GET OUT OF ONE is certainly NOT SHALLOW either! It is actually a perfectly acceptable solution of self-preservation. It is NOT selfish, especially if you have exhausted every efforts trying to make the marriage better.

It is ADMIRABLE trying to save a marriage that was going well until a problem came up. However it is FOOLISH trying to save a marriage which never works well and will never work well in the first place. No, miracles won't happen, and No, love does not conquer all. Sorry there ain't no Cinderella story 

Sorry for my pessimism. I hope optimist people will jump in and give a more balanced perspective


----------



## Sweetmaya (Feb 14, 2013)

I'm sorry, I say this with love, but I must ask? *What are you getting from this?*
This whole thing sounds like you are a little co-dependent in this relationship. Like a parent who gives money to the addicted child knowing they will buy drugs. 

In this game of life there are no VICTIMS, only VOLUNTEERS. People can only do to you what you allow them to do.

I'm sorry for the harshness, but you posted at 5 and 6:17 so maybe you could have been doing some kind of dinner and connecting exercise with no intention to get laid and maybe you would have a chance of getting that bonus... I know if my husband was giving you a play by play of our life instead of being in the bedroom looking in my eyes, hand on chest, listening to our breathing, rubbing and massaging, I would be upset... And again I say it with love...


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Mr. Indy's persistence is admirable though.

I have a friend back then in the 1990s, when I was into computers, let's call him Reynaldo, who will never give up on anything which he consider as "workable". 

For example, if a mouse gets inside a computer and urinated in the mainboard, usually we just tell the customer "yo amigo, your mainboard needs to be replaced".

Not Reynaldo. He will clean the mouse urine, testing and retesting the affected parts, soldering and resoldering if he had to, and in short he will do everything he could to save the mainboard from being replaced.

His loyalty to his gadgets is so strong. Even today, he is still using the same Smartphone he has been using since 2007. This phone has been repaired and re-repaired time and time again. It has been soaking wet in a rain, fell down from a coffee table, being shorted when connected to an erratic computer... but Reynaldo are still using it. He said "If I think I can still repair it, I won't throw it".

Maybe Mr. Indy has the same feeling about his wife, the same way Reynaldo with his gadgets.

"..If I think I can still repair it, I won't throw it.."

Being a former computer salesmen (and still do some part-time second-hand laptop selling), I could relate to that concept..

What do you think, Mr. Indy?


----------



## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Well here's my 2 cents. Take it or leave it. Based on past experience, you'll leave it!!

1) Your entire life is a covert contract.

"If I do __________, then my wife will have sex with me"

Everything you do has strings attached. Your wife dosent fulfill her end of the contract, because a) she has no idea it exists b) she just dosent want to have sex with you

When she dosent fulfill her end of the bargin, you build up resentment. Each minute of each day it builds. When you do have sex, there is so much pressure on her, she can't enjoy it. When she dosent enjoy it, she dosen't want to do it again. When she dosent want to do it again, you start getting pissed off. It is a destructive cycle, a negative feedback loop.

2) You really don't get the idea of the MAP or just the idea of living life for yourself. You don't need to "know when I'm supposed to continue with the MAP, especially if at the time, she is being the perfect wife". 

The purpose of the MAP is not to change your wife. The purpose of the MAP is to change the ONLY THING YOU CAN CONTROL: you. 

The MAP is not to improve your sex life. 

The MAP is to take control of your life, to live a full and satisfying life so that each day you wake up happy and full of energy. People that are happy and full of energy are attractive. Emotionally healthy people like to have sex with other emotionally healthy people who are full of energy and are attractive.

Simply put, you are just plain doing it wrong.

Look back at your thread. How many times do you talk about your wife, what she does or does not do, what her problems are??? How many times do you talk about yourself?


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Sweetmaya said:


> I'm sorry, I say this with love, but I must ask? *What are you getting from this?*


That's a great question...when she is in her norm, things are great. The problem is that 75% of her time, she is not normal and I must contend with her mood swings. If she is in depression, I am literally just another object in the room. 



> This whole thing sounds like you are a little co-dependent in this relationship. Like a parent who gives money to the addicted child knowing they will buy drugs.
> 
> In this game of life there are no VICTIMS, only VOLUNTEERS. People can only do to you what you allow them to do.
> 
> I'm sorry for the harshness, but you posted at 5 and 6:17 so maybe you could have been doing some kind of dinner and connecting exercise with no intention to get laid and maybe you would have a chance of getting that bonus... I know if my husband was giving you a play by play of our life instead of being in the bedroom looking in my eyes, hand on chest, listening to our breathing, rubbing and massaging, I would be upset... And again I say it with love...


At 5 I was just finishing up at work. At 6:17, I was sitting on the love seat, next to my wife who was sleeping, or trying to sleep because she wasn't feeling well. She is just starting to catch a cold so she said she didn't feel like going out to eat, as I told her about our 7 pm reservation. After she decided she didn't want to go out to the restaurant I reserved, she said she was just going to eat a chicken soup. Then she asks if I will take her to MCL for dinner.  I looked her in the eyes and said, "If you don't want to go out to dinner to the reservation for Valentine's Day, we aren't going out anywhere else to eat...just eat your soup."
She apologized for ruining the day, but I told her she didn't ruin it, we can just take a rain check and do this on a day you are feeling better.
She ate her soup and I ended up not eating anything at all, I just couldn't stomach anything. I so wanted to engage with her, she just wasn't having it.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Mr. Indy's persistence is admirable though.
> 
> I have a friend back then in the 1990s, when I was into computers, let's call him Reynaldo, who will never give up on anything which he consider as "workable".
> 
> ...


That's me, just not to that extreme. At this point, I don't think she is fixable...she doesn't seem to be willing to work at it with me.


----------



## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

IndyTMI said:


> At 5 I was just finishing up at work. At 6:17, I was sitting on the love seat, next to my wife who was sleeping, or trying to sleep because she wasn't feeling well. She is just starting to catch a cold so she said she didn't feel like going out to eat, as I told her about our 7 pm reservation. After she decided she didn't want to go out to the restaurant I reserved, she said she was just going to eat a chicken soup. Then she asks if I will take her to MCL for dinner.  I looked her in the eyes and said, "If you don't want to go out to dinner to the reservation for Valentine's Day, we aren't going out anywhere else to eat...just eat your soup."


this SPECIFIC example is discussed extensively in the MAP/NMMNG world.

The correct response from you is "ok" and walk out the door and enjoy your dinner reservation.

You are a rock, you do what you want when you want.

You do not succomb to your wife's moods or let her control your life.

She chooses to join you, or not.


----------



## Sweetmaya (Feb 14, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> That's me, just not to that extreme. At this point, I don't think she is fixable...she doesn't seem to be willing to work at it with me.


WHY SHOULD SHE? She gets to be in whatever mood she pleases, make you as miserable as she pleases, she gets all the attention she wants when she wants it, and NOT have to bother with you when she doesn't want to. and you are still there. Why, when and how is this life affecting her? Is she has a mental health issue she is obviously fine with it... 

Listen when the pain and consequences of being sick become greater than the process to get better she will seek help. But until now, the reward of being sick is great.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Saki said:


> Well here's my 2 cents. Take it or leave it. Based on past experience, you'll leave it!!
> 
> 1) Your entire life is a covert contract.
> 
> ...


Thanks for clarifying the MAP and I agree...

You are correct to a degree about the covert contracts...it never used to be like that, or at least not as it has come to be currently.
Prior to me bringing my sexual dissatisfaction to the surface, I lived in what I considered sexless marriage. Most any night, I could be guaranteed my wife would have her back to me and would avoid touch, as well as not responding to mine.
Between her counseling sessions, hormone treatments and our open discussions, I feel as though a good amount of progress has been made. The frequency has certainly increased, she can climax easier, she is more involved/engaged during sex.
I have truly tried to stop with the covert contracts and I think at this point, I'm not doing A to get B, but rather I am conscious of everything I am providing and realize how little is ever returned/reciprocated.

After she woke from her nap she took instead of us going out for dinner, I asked her about her counseling session she had earlier in the day. She wouldn't really elaborate on what they discussed, just that she talked about this and that...not really getting anything out of the session, at least that is what she tells me. I asked if the counselor asks questions about how she is feeling and stuff like that, which she explained that she is supposed to be working on making small positive improvements and document her process, but she is failing to do any of the work her counselor gives her. She told me that she postponed her next 3 visits because of everything else going on...with her now signed up for both belly dance lessons as well as a Pilates class. They in no way conflict with anything else scheduled, she is using this as an excuse to stop the counseling. She mentioned the cost, to which I told her I was perfectly fine with the costs and for her not to worry about it.

She then states that she has nothing more to talk about with the counselor...she said I'm not giving her much feedback, so she doesn't know what to discuss with her anymore. She figures everything is ok with our relationship, so she stopped.
As a precursor to elaborating on anything with her, I told her that I had a few issues to bring up with her and I wanted to throw them out there for us to discuss and for her to not automatically jump to conclusions and interrupt my train of thought. She agreed, but as soon as I brought up the first topic, she injected her response before I could get it all out. I stopped her and let her know that she is already breaking our communications, as she will not allow me to finish any train of thought without her injecting her comments while I am already talking. All through the discussion, she did this. From this point forward, if she attempts this again, the conversation will be over until she can calm down and allow me to speak freely without interruption. 
So, from the topics I brought up, she throws her hands in the air and says we might as well split up and go our separate ways, as she can't give more than she is already giving.
The first topic was about showing affection. I explained my position about how awesome it feels to be touched by her and I seek more of it. She will maybe touch me sexually once a week, while we are sitting on the love seat, which usually turns into extended foreplay that ultimately leads to sex. She most certainly seems to enjoy this, just as much as I do. Any other time while on the love seat, she will not touch me whatsoever. Not even to just rest a hand on my leg or anything. As I had mentioned in previous posts, I like to touch her, rub her leg, whatever...just a little something to feel the connection. I would certainly like this to be reciprocated, which I have let her know, but she refuses to do so because she associates any bit of touch I seek as I am ultimately looking for sex. Since she mentions this in the manner she does, it comes across as she doesn't want to have sex with me. I've tried to explain to her that not all touch has to lead to sex, but she doesn't believe me...but she hasn't even allowed it to be proven or not. 
Right now, our frequency is maybe once a week. That means the other 6 days, I literally get no attention in the form of any kind of touch. I so yearn for it, but it doesn't come.
She has taken this touch issue as a deal breaker. She tried to turn it around on me last night because she wasn't feeling well and exclaimed that she can't be a fully functional sex partner when she is feeling ill. Just because this one time she isn't feeling affectionate, that I have to cry about not being touched...boo hoo.
I explained that I wasn't talking about right then and there...I understand she is under the weather and isn't feeling it. I'm speaking about all of the other evenings when we are sitting on the love seat and no matter how much I touch her, rub her back upon her requests, I get squat!
She then tried to turn it into an issue where if she isn't in the mood to touch me, but I want to be touched, it will feel forced and she doesn't think I'd like that. So I asked her, "When you ask me for a back rub and I'm not exactly feeling up to it, but do it anyway, does the back rub feel too mechanical for you to enjoy it, or do they hit the spot, as you'd hoped?" She said that she didn't know when I didn't want to rub her back. I told her that's because I don't mention it...I simply comply with her request for a back rub, because it is what she wants...not what I want. Why can't she simply reciprocate with the same attitude? Nope, for her this is asking too much and she can never provide the level of touch and stimulation I seek, so we best part ways. She says these things, then regrets them and I keep riding this damn yo-yo, never getting real resolve.

The second issue I brought up was her telling me stuff that never comes true. Early on in the relationship, when I would do something that really got her to notice, like fix something without being told, or going above and beyond the expected, she would comment that that action was treat worthy or that I get a prize. Well, she use to actually carry through with those by way of BJ or a HJ. The past few years, she still recognizes the actions and makes her claim, but never follows through any longer. I then went on to mention the statement about applying the cream, now I am not allowed to do that. I gave her a few more examples to then tell her that her mouth is writing checks that she or her body isn't allowing me to cash in. I can no longer believe what she promises. 

I recommended we seek MC, not just her in sessions. She is ultimately going to be the one to decide if she can stay with me or not. 

I told her that I brought up these issues because she thought everything was just peachy with our relationship and I didn't quite feel that way, but these issues are not deal breakers, but rather things we need to address and work on. We have made some improvements, these are just areas that need further attention. I don't think she exactly agrees and may soon be working on her exit plan. She has yet to do anything, not even look for a job.


----------



## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

IndyTMI said:


> I'm speaking about all of the other evenings when we are sitting on the love seat and no matter how much I touch her, rub her back upon her requests, I get squat!


Aight look man. You might have noticed I'm being direct. 

You tell me you don't do covert contracts anymore. You told me on at least 2 occasions the reason you touch her, your motivation, is that you like it.

So what does the above quote mean? You touch her because you like it. Or so you say. But here you are venting frustration because she dosen't touch you back.

I'll spell it right out for you, because you aren't seeing it yourself:

YOU TOUCH HER BECAUSE YOU WANT HER TO TOUCH YOU BACK.

Stop it. It's not working. You are perceived by her as needy, sniveling, whiney. UN A TTRACTIVE. Not part of the MAP.

Do something different. Next time you feel like touching her, whip your junk out and start wacking off in front of her. See what happens.



IndyTMI said:


> ThaSo I asked her, "When you ask me for a back rub and I'm not exactly feeling up to it, but do it anyway,


So. Again. Next time you don't want to do something...DONT DO IT. That is what the MAP says.

Instead your approach is to do it, feel like a doormat, let some resentment build, then victim puke all over the place about it.



IndyTMI said:


> Why can't she simply reciprocate with the same attitude?


Oh good god. You are doing it...because you want to. Otherwise you are doing it BECAUSE YOU WANT HER TO ACT A CERTAIN WAY, YOU CAN'T CONTROL THAT!!! That's a covert contract, and it is a self defeating way to live your life.

I've said it before, your whole life is set up for one reason: vain attempts to make her sexual available.

You smoother her sexuality. She has no freedom to express it as she sees fit. She finds you incredibly repulsive because you pressure her constantly. You cater to her every whim. 

You are not a rock. You are not the captain. You do not answer to a higher purpose.

You are a yo-yo riding on the wave of her emotions. You said so yourself.

When are you going to choose otherwise? When are you going to take control of your own happiness?


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Saki, I really really appreciate your directness. I must admit, your questions and comments pissed me off, but I realize why...Thanks! 

Taking your suggestion...I don't think the wife and I will be having any more physical contact, as if I don't initiate it, it just isn't going to happen.

Then she is going to turn this into another thing on me...that I no longer like her, as I'm not making any attempt to touch her, that I have given up on us. No matter what, she will point the blame as it being my fault.
I suppose my defense is that I never know if/when she is in the mood to be touched, so she is going to have to make effort and let me know.

I've let her know how I like to be touched and it rarely ever happens. I can only assume then that if/when she does touch me, that is because she wants touched as well. If that is the case, I will place the covert contract in her hands to deal with and I will be contract free...probably contact free as well.

If I were to do..


> Do something different. Next time you feel like touching her, whip your junk out and start wacking off in front of her. See what happens.


If she is in one of her no touch moods, which is 75% of the time, she'll get really offended and walk out of the room. If she is in the mood, she'll watch with a smile on her face and maybe join in with her touch. She stated she wants to video me blowing my load...she finds that interesting.
Most likely though, this will only further pressure her and turn her off, as I will be overtly pushing my sexuality onto her.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> Thanks for clarifying the MAP and I agree...
> 
> You are correct to a degree about the covert contracts...it never used to be like that, or at least not as it has come to be currently.
> Prior to me bringing my sexual dissatisfaction to the surface, I lived in what I considered sexless marriage. Most any night, I could be guaranteed my wife would have her back to me and would avoid touch, as well as not responding to mine.
> ...


Mr. Indy,

Now that we've established that you and my friend Reynaldo has some similarities in the field of determination, commitment and persistence..

I forgot to tell you that even Reynaldo did not always succeeded in repairing his gadgets or our customers's gadget..

Last year (2012) we were unable to fix this Quantel NC8x Netbook (2006 model) because the required replacement parts are no longer available. Why? because the Quantel Company itself went out of business in my country......

Reynaldo did try to find parts in used gears market. Didn't work. We tried to find used NC8x to cannibalize. Couldn't find one. Even after trying 6 compumalls in 3 different cities. Yikes!

And thus we tearfully gave up our attempts to repair the poor Netbook.

So, Mr. Indy,

Even Reynaldo gave up when replacement parts actually does not exist.

I think you too should give up, because in the case of your wife, her true intention and willingness to make _you_ happy actually does not exist.

Yes Mr. Indy, I said it. She does not have any intention to make you happy. Her life is about herself, and she included you in her life because you are useful to her. You are her very own personal assistant with absolutely totally no payment required, not even sex. In fact, just by _promising_ sex, she got everything she needs from you, Mr. Indy. That's why she has no real motivation to do her wifely duties to you. She loathed to have sex with you, and why should she does something she dislikes, if empty promises are enough to make you bust your ass trying to fulfill her every desires?

She keeps you around not because she loves you, Mr. Indy. Read your own words above...which I bolded...

Anyway Mr. Indy,

When you filed for divorce, do not let her crocodile tears or poisonous tongue persuade you to cancel the proceedings.

Let her feel what does it feels like not to have you around..

If, after the divorce, she start to realize how much you meant to him, maybe she will tearfully ask you to take her back.

That's when you could start negotiating to have a more balanced relationship, with you providing her needs and she satisfy your needs. Just make sure you don't get bitten twice.

And if THAT does not happen, at least you would have been divorced, you will be a free person, and you could find another woman whom are actually a decent, respectable, loveworthy human being..


----------



## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

I'm not here for you to like me.

I learn about myself by pushing others to grow. Most of the time it's an epic failure. 

I've been waiting to drop this link on you - your edit tells me you might get it

"Just Let Go" on Vimeo

Like you, I used to constantly touch my wife (in an effort to make her sexually available). She never touched me. 13 years together, not once. She'd always tell me she didn't like the touches, but I never listened.

So eventually I had my little awaking. I stopped touching her.

Only a few weeks went before before I noticed something odd. She started touching me. Gentle caresses every time she walked by. Sometimes blantantly sexual touches. Everywhere - in the kitchen, lying in bed, driving in the car.

Frankly I'm getting to the point where it's becoming annoying. I'm tempted to tell her to stop touching me. Especially in bed. I'd like to get some sleep.

Stop trying to control everything. Relax. Create a sexual atmosphere and give love space to blossom.


----------



## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

IndyTMI said:


> Then she is going to turn this into another thing on me...that I no longer like her, as I'm not making any attempt to touch her, that I have given up on us. No matter what, she will point the blame as it being my fault.
> I suppose my defense is that I never know if/when she is in the mood to be touched, so she is going to have to make effort and let me know.
> 
> I've let her know how I like to be touched and it rarely ever happens. I can only assume then that if/when she does touch me, that is because she wants touched as well. If that is the case, I will place the covert contract in her hands to deal with and I will be contract free...probably contact free as well.
> ...


Google the law of attraction. Actually I'll do it for you.

Law of attraction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Your thoughts control your future. It's powerful stuff.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Saki said:


> I'm not here for you to like me.


I've found that some of my closest friends are the ones that initially piss me off upon meeting them.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Saki,
This is a simplistic and frankly ridiculous analysis. I love touching my wife sexually. It is fun and feels good. It also turns me on. Do I expect her to reciprocate and touch me. You betcha. Is there anything covert about that? Nope. 

Only a selfish/lazy partner would let you please them and then despite the fact that they know you are super aroused, they roll over and go to sleep. 

At most I would tell a partner once: don't ever do that again

As for your situation, you my man are frankly a bit confused. You will never be happy with the relationship if your partner treats you like you don't matter. You might be happy with yourself, but not with them. And I read your history. 

Deep sigh. Put your seatbelt on, and make sure your airbags are turned on. 

You justified your wife's physical affair by saying: I treated her horribly for the first 6 years. I didn't meet her emotional needs and that is why she cheated on me. And that is why I owe her an apology. 

Guess what. Your wife was with you for 6 years - six years - and you two were not parents at the point she freely walked down the aisle with you. So from her standpoint you were marriage material. And yet you do nothing but make excuses for her. 

You have gotten lost in the 'letter of the law' wrt covert contracts. 

How about this: I expect my wife to treat me decently and with consideration because I am her husband. Full stop. 

She knows sex is important to me - big shocker - what with me having a large surplus of testosterone. So she makes an effort to be a good lover. OMG - does she get to be angry that I have placed an expectation on her? 

Does she get to claim I am making her responsible for my happiness? Rofl. No she is not. That said, I get unhappy enough with her as a wife that would impact the little love dance we been doing for edge of a quarter century now. 



QUOTE=Saki;1454513]Aight look man. You might have noticed I'm being direct. 

You tell me you don't do covert contracts anymore. You told me on at least 2 occasions the reason you touch her, your motivation, is that you like it
So what does the above quote mean? You touch her because you like it. Or so you say. But here you are venting frustration because she dosen't touch you back.

I'll spell it right out for you, because you aren't seeing it yourself:

YOU TOUCH HER BECAUSE YOU WANT HER TO TOUCH YOU BACK.

Stop it. It's not working. You are perceived by her as needy, sniveling, whiney. UN A TTRACTIVE. Not part of the MAP.

Do something different. Next time you feel like touching her, whip your junk out and start wacking off in front of her. See what happens.



So. Again. Next time you don't want to do something...DONT DO IT. That is what the MAP says.

Instead your approach is to do it, feel like a doormat, let some resentment build, then victim puke all over the place about it.



Oh good god. You are doing it...because you want to. Otherwise you are doing it BECAUSE YOU WANT HER TO ACT A CERTAIN WAY, YOU CAN'T CONTROL THAT!!! That's a covert contract, and it is a self defeating way to live your life.

I've said it before, your whole life is set up for one reason: vain attempts to make her sexual available.

You smoother her sexuality. She has no freedom to express it as she sees fit. She finds you incredibly repulsive because you pressure her constantly. You cater to her every whim. 

You are not a rock. You are not the captain. You do not answer to a higher purpose.

You are a yo-yo riding on the wave of her emotions. You said so yourself.

When are you going to choose otherwise? When are you going to take control of your own happiness?[/QUOTE]


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Before I left work I sent her a text telling her that I sought out advice and understand her position better and will not pressure her and give her space. I won't smother her.

She replied, oh
Then, 

When I got home she seemed normal. She went to take a shower and later I get a call. It's my wife, upstairs just fresh out of the shower. She just says, "hey, come up here" and hangs up. Never knowing what kind of emergency it is, or I passed another **** test...she says she wanted to start putting the cream on earlier in the day and from our discussion the night before, she wasn't sure if I wanted to apply it or not. I said, "Sure, I'll apply it." Not looking to get lucky tonight, simply because she has belly dance lessons tomorrow and I certainly can't ruin a good nights sleep by having sex. Anyhow, just her knowing I'm not pressuring her any longer has already opened her up, just today alone. While she was watching one of her recorded programs I had no interest in watching, I pulled out my iPad and started reading one of the erotic novels I downloaded for us to read to each other. She asked me what I was reading. I told her, she then wanted to read the stories I read, just from my comments. One was so so, but the last one actually had anal in it, which she didn't comment on at all, but knew it aroused me while reading. We both laughed at something silly at the end of the story. I haven't touched her a single time, but she did tap on my lap for a few minutes trying to get our cat to jump up in my lap.  Last night our good night kiss was longer after I had mentioned how short they had gotten back to. I certainly expect it to be a long one tonight as well.


----------



## Flowers (Feb 5, 2013)

Indy
Its really hard being in your situation, sex is very vital in marriage. A lot of good advice has been given here and now it is up to you to decided.


----------



## I Notice The Details (Sep 15, 2012)

mildlyperplexed said:


> Your wife may feel differently but this is my experience with hormonal issues:
> 
> I got irrationally angry and sad, I felt even worse because I knew it was irrational. I couldn't control it and it was totally out of character and I felt lost and crazy because I knew what I was feeling wasn't right. I was terrified my husband was going to leave me and got really clingy but I was horrible to be around. I also knew that I was horrible to be around! My sex drive went totally down the pan (again not like me at all) and my mind felt fuzzy. Sometimes it felt like I couldn't think at all, normal activities like reading or playing a game were beyond me and it was completely terrifying.
> 
> Glad I didn't do anything stupid because it did pass after a couple of years and I'm all back to normal. This may not have any baring on your problems but if it sounds at all familiar she really needs your support and reassurance that it will get better.


Thanks for your post MildlyPerplexed! My wife is going thru PeriMenopause and struggling with hormonal issues as well. This helps put some things in perspective. 

Thank you again for sharing.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

She repeatedly indicated we weren't going to mess around because of her dance lesson this morning. Then as we were getting ready for bed, she changed her mind and said, "Well, if it is a quick one, that would be alright and I need a back rub."
Now, knowing her from how she speaks to me in the past, I took this as she was going to take care of me and I rub her back.
After we get into bed, we kiss goodnight. It was better than most night's kisses, but I still wanted it to be more.
She then turns her back to me, so I get right to work. As I was giving her an awesome back rub, she reaches behind her to my balls and starts to play & hold them. We continue for just a bit longer when I finish rubbing her back, I switch my hand from her back to my penis and proceeded to focus there. I still had one hand on her crotch, just holding it there, but wasn't moving it around for any kind of stimulation.
She then pulls away, jumps out of bed and starts to complain as she is grabbing her pillow and whatever else to go sleep in the other bedroom. She lays into me about how selfish I am, that this has got to be all about me...she sees where she rates. I thought, WFT!!! Where did this come from? I quickly came to defense and explained how I interpreted what she had said prior to bed and I thought she was going to take care of me and I rub her back. Knowing she didn't want to get all messy and have sex ruin her sleep, I didn't even attempt to arouse her. Heck, last time she was just taking care of me, it aroused her to the point that she grabbed my hand and guided it to her kitty. Why couldn't she have used her hand to force mine to stimulate her? I told her that had I known she wanted to also be stimulated, she knows I'd be all over that, so to say I was being selfish and only focusing on my self was because that is how she set it up.
I told her I wasn't going to take any blame for causing her to have a bad night's sleep. After she settled down and I finished taking care of myself, we better understood each other, she took her pillow and went back into the bedroom to sleep. Clearly we have communication problems that is causing each of us to run on a set of assumptions that is causing greater tension.
This morning as she was getting around, I could tell she is a bit pissy, speaking under her breath about not sleeping well, saying she can't do this anymore, that she's done, that this is not working...blah, blah, blah. 

Every morning I leave for work, I either tell my wife I love her, or say something like, "Goodbye, my love." and she normally responds the same. She just left for her dance lesson and said nothing. 

It's been nearly a year since I focused any bit of time playing video games. I have been a huge Battlefield gamer since the first release. Looks like I will be spending much more time now playing games instead of chasing my wife around the house. She is now going to get the same amount of attention as she gives me. The other thing is I don't plan on accepting any of her offers for playtime if they come with conditions...no thanks.


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Sometimes we have to think of ourselves and be good to ourselves when our spouces aren't. Treat yourself to some fun today, go to the movies and out for a steak dinner or somethong like that. She seems to be taking care of herself, you need to take care of you too. I am not saying do anything like cheat on her or anything, just do something nice for yourself. Girls would go to the spa or shopping..you get the idea.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

mineforever said:


> Sometimes we have to think of ourselves and be good to ourselves when our spouces aren't. Treat yourself to some fun today, go to the movies and out for a steak dinner or somethong like that. She seems to be taking care of herself, you need to take care of you too. I am not saying do anything like cheat on her or anything, just do something nice for yourself. Girls would go to the spa or shopping..you get the idea.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, I have finally got her out of the hole she had buried herself in for so many years. Ever since I met her 17 years ago, she never really had any form of hobby or anything to call hers. Just recently have my encouragements actually got her to do go something with herself. It really is difficult to get someone with depression to take interest in much if anything. Thankfully, she actually enjoys the classes.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

She gets home from her belly dance lesson and is still all pissy with me. She complains that her class was worthless because she forgot everything she learned from before and it's my fault because she couldn't sleep and just wasn't feeling it in class.
Let's never mind the fact she did absolutely no practicing from her previous lesson. She mentioned that she was going to extend her classes and sign up for another 4 more weeks. I am going to put my foot down and tell her I will not agree to pay for anymore classes if she isn't going to practice and pursue it.
If she wants to waste money so willingly, she can go get a job and use her own money.
She also rambled several times something about not wanting touched for at least 4 days, so don't even try...
I'm sorry...don't punish me by withholding sex, especially for something that isn't my fault...not going to play that game. We either have a sexual relationship or we don't. Let's see which one of your favorite pleasures you enjoy that I now get to cut you off. Or maybe I'm just ready to serve her with papers.
This repeated childish acting behavior is driving me nuts. I'm living with an adult woman that acts like she can control everything. She saw how my brother did so early in our relationship and she helped me break free of his control. I then fell under my new captors reigns. I was grateful for her part in freeing me from my brother's control, I fell right into hers. Why did it take so long for me to see this? No More!
Maybe I'll sit back and see how she responds to her inability to control me any longer. Perhaps she'll work up the courage to serve me with papers, as she'd like to do, but right now I am her money stream. She's got the comforts of most anything she wants, she is just miserable with me. 
With a wife treating me like this, where are the other indications of her still wanting us to stay married out of love?
I've read the five love languages, as she, but I'm not seeing where she is focusing and addressing my speak, but I have most certainly fulfilled within my power to satisfy hers.
Is the fact she does my laundry any indicator? No, that's part of what she does to keep a comfortable place to stay, just has to bear through the burden of dealing with me...something that comes as part of the package that milking roommates understand and are willing to accept. 
Now I will be spending this weekend focusing on some ME Time! Maybe buy a new game for the PC and workout.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

IndyTM said:


> She gets home from her belly dance lesson and is still all pissy with me. She complains that ...it's my fault because she couldn't sleep and just wasn't feeling it in class.


Again, I recommend that you follow AnonPink's suggestion of reading more about BPD to see if most traits sound very familiar. An easy place to start reading is my description of what it's like to live with a BPDer. My post is located at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I just can't win for trying...

Again, sitting on the love seat, we are talking about various things and I mentioned I needed to still get my shower. She responds, "Oh, so then you'll be clean." That is a code phrase of ours indicating that the clean person is going to get an oral treat.
She then said, "Or, did you already take care of that this morning?" I let her know I hadn't touched myself since last night. I told her that I thought she didn't want touched anyway.

So, I go upstairs to shower, decide to go ahead and masturbate, not because I needed to, I just figured if I was going to be a couple days dry from my wife, I might as well get ahead of the program. Right as I'm shooting my load, she walks in, or tries to. My immediate reaction was to kick the door back closed. I then let her in to her grilling me about what I was doing.
She tried to pin this on me like I was grudge masturbating because she wouldn't touch me right then and there. I tried to reason with her, but that is an impossible task. 
She takes this masturbation thing and gets raging mad about it. She never had issue with me masturbating before. She claims she is upset because she might have had plans for us later in the evening and now I won't be able to perform or it will take me forever to orgasm. I explained that I was going off of the last thing she told me about us cooling it down for 3 - 4 days. I was giving her the space I'd promised and wasn't going to pressure her for sex, so why so angry about me masturbating?
She now says what I have done has driven even a darker spike through our relationship and she can't see where she will ever find me sexually attractive.:wtf: This has turned her way off from me. We are done, We are through. She can't ever see herself looking at me sexually again.
She takes this innocent masturbation session into some marriage breaking disaster. I ask her what she is going to do about it then? What does she want for the end result? She won't answer.
I asked her about employment or working for herself...what classes or training does she need? She doesn't want to work.

Her mood then swings towards badgering me. Claiming I'm smiling because I'm happy we're through.
Tells me I'll be happier out with some girl that will let me do the things she refuses to do.
She asks me to call her and let her know how I enjoy it.
She said she knows I'll find someone right away to start f*cking.
She said she knows I'm relieved. She's right, but really upset with myself for allowing this to have continued for so long.
Then I mention a couple of benefits for her to being away from me and then she starts in on why I am already giving up on the relationship, not realizing the comments she'd made just seconds prior. 
She then asks me if I will put a bullet in her head.
Makes a couple more pity comments, now doesn't want to be in the same house with me, but I promised I wouldn't bother her or try to make my presence known around her.
I asked her for us to see MC, she refuses.
She is so delusional, tomorrow she could be on the train of thought that we are on a path to recovery.

Everything I've read points her as to being some form of BPD. Do I try to seek help for her or just run far, far away?
Now I have to break this to her 25 year old son. He knows she is not quite stable.
Monday I'll be contacting an attorney to have divorce papers drawn up.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I have never been fearful of a woman, until now.

I wake up shorty after 4 am to my wife scrambling around on the floor on my side of the bed. I ask her what she is doing and she mumbles something about the safe. I immediately jumped out of bed to see what was going on.
She was in a frantic state, banging on my bedroom safe that I keep a few firearms in. 
I asked her what she was doing. No answer. I asked what is inside of the safe. She won't answer. She says something about not wanting to live and then starts in on me and why it's my fault our relationship is in ruin. She asked if I was sleeping, I said yes. She said, well, guess what? I can't sleep so neither can you!
Since I see she can't get into the safe, I climb back into bed. She then continues to lash out at me verbally, listing various reasons why I'm a failure.
She then lunges at me, throwing her arms at my chest. I block with my arms and then roll with my back towards her as she continues to pummel me about the head and back. She stops, backs away and says a couple of words, then lunges at me again to pummel me some more. I thought she was vicious in her previous moods from years ago, but this one went over the top...NOTHING was held back about what came out of her mouth. Tells me to be fearful of sleep. I take that as a threat...
She goes into the bathroom for a few moments, then yells at me and tells me we have a serious problem. I ask and she comes in to show me her busted up knuckles from battering me. Nothing major, just a couple of black and blue knuckles. My arm and back have nice welts...damn that woman can hit harder than I'd imagined.
I tell her to put some ice on it and it'll be better in a few days.
She's now trying to sleep and I'm scared to sleep.
We briefly discussed living arrangements, she doesn't want to stay in the city, so I won't have to move out of this rental.
I am temporarily, until she is officially moved out, moving all of my firearms over to a friend's house. I just received a text back from him stating he has the room. I normally always carry daily, but while dealing with her as unhinged as she is, I just can't take any chances.

Even after all of that, she goes into these pity party sorrow sessions and still thinks we can mend things, after all she has just done.
She's done this about 4 times already this morning.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I think my wife needs help. I fear this has pushed her over any other edge she has ever previously came to.
I do fear she is suicidal. Two references just since last night.
I know they are signs of desperation...

What should I do?


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

If it were me I would take her to a hospital for help. If not you one of your family could. I would also go to the doctor and have her abuse to you documented and file a report at the police. I would also call an attorney and talk to him. Spousal abuse is wrong...there is NEVER a justifiable reason to hit!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

IndyTMI said:


> I know they are signs of desperation...What should I do?


Indy, if your W has strong BPD traits -- as you suspect -- you likely are in greater danger than she is. You would be far safer living with a narcissist or sociopath than a BPDer. Whereas narcissists and sociopaths are emotionally STABLE, BPDers are UNSTABLE. This means they can flip, in just ten seconds, between loving you ("splitting you white") and hating you ("splitting you black").

This black-white thinking that is so characteristic of BPDers means that, while you are being split black, she is completely out of touch with the love she has for you. The result is that, during those times, she is capable of perceiving you to be Hitler incarnate -- and treating you accordingly. This is why BPDers -- most of whom are generous, kind, good people -- are capable of doing very mean, vindictive, viscious things.

Yes, when their mood later flips back, they will be so so sorry for what they did. But, meanwhile, a lot of spouses are lying there bleeding or dead. What I'm trying to say, Indy, is that it is unclear to me that your W was intending to shoot ONLY herself. 

Significantly, the most dangerous period to be around a distraught BPDer is when you are announcing you are going to walk out on her. A BPDer's worst fear -- by far -- is abandonment. This is why the universal advice for the abused spouses is to plan the departure well in advance -- getting all your ducks in a row -- and then to suddenly move out (while having some friends or hired movers present during the move out).

Indeed, to trigger the abandonment fear, you don't have to announce you are leaving. Rather, you only have to start acting like a normal happy man who is no longer walking on eggshells around her. Behaving like your "old self" -- i.e., like the man you were before you started cowtowing to her -- will scare the hell out of her. 

A BPDer will tolerate your presence in the home only if you continue, on a daily basis, to validate her false self image of being "The Vicitm." Her self image is so fragile and unstable that she will hold onto that false self image with a death grip. She therefore will become extremely upset if you stop validating it -- as you have done recently.

One way to validate her victim status is to be "The Savior," a role you played full time during the courtship. It satisfies her because, as long as you are "The Savior," she must be "The Victim" whom you are trying so hard to save. Of course, you are allowed to play that role only as long as her infatuation lasts -- a period of up to six months. After that, she will perceive you as savior only on those increasingly rarer days when she is splitting you white.

Your only other permitted role, then, is being "The Perpetrator," the man who is to be blamed for her every misfortune and mistake. As long as you are content to be "The Perpetrator," she can continue with her fantasy of being the perpetual victim. 

The problem now, of course, is that you have recently established new strong personal boundaries -- and have been refusing to take the blame for her unhappiness. As I said, this has scared the hell out of her because the implication to her is that, if she has any flaws at all, she is is a terrible person (i.e., "all black") who soon will be abandoned.

When I started standing up for myself, for example, my BPDer exW became extremely fearful. First, she started trying to control me with suicide threats. She would get distraught and then, without saying a thing, would put on her winter coat in the hallway and go out the front door. I would follow her, protectively, about a 100 feet back as she would walk to a nearby tall bridge. That happened on two occasions. When I stopped following her, she stopped going to the bridge.

Instead, she started going alone to the nearby subway platform, where she would call me -- saying she was going to jump in front of the next train -- and hang up. I ran down there on two occassions. When I stopped doing that, she stopped going there too.

Her rages and temper tantrums were so fierce that, whenever I took a shower, I always felt I was at risk when shutting my eyes to shampoo my hair. Significantly, I never felt that fear at all during the 12 years I lived with my bipolar-1 foster son, who went through nine psychotic episodes. That is, I felt much safer living with a man who sometimes would go completely crazy than I did living with an angry BPDer.

IME, a raging BPDer is potentially far more dangerous than a person who is psychotic, sociopathic, or narcissistic. My exW, for example, once told me how she had threatened her ex-H with a knife. She had held a big carving knife up to his face while telling him "he had to sleep sometime."

Hence, if I were in your shoes, I would immediately call the police to the apartment so they will take photos of your bruises and and the scars on her knuckles. I would encourage the police to take her to a hospital and have her admitted to a psychiatric ward for her own protection -- explaining that she was suicidal and trying to get to a gun. And I would move out of the apartment and stay with the friend until she vacates the home. 

More accurately, that's what I WOULD do, not what I did. What I actually did was to foolishly remain in the home with my distraught exW. Because she was so fearful of abandonment when I started standing up for myself, she decided to preemptively abandon me. She did that by calling the police and having me arrested on a bogus charge of "brutalizing" her. 

Because it was done early on a Saturday morning, I was in jail for nearly 3 full days before I had a chance to go before a judge in arraignment. This gave my exW plenty of time to obtain a restraining order (which courts hand out like candy) barring me from returning to my home for 18 months (the time it takes to get a divorce in this State).

Even so, I got off lucky. I'm still alive. In contrast, you are still at great risk, living in an apartment devoid of guns but full of knives. Indeed, there may even be a box of rat poison in one of your cabinets.


----------



## keeper63 (Mar 22, 2012)

You need to immediately take action:

1.) You should remove any obviously dangerous items from your home, moving the guns was a good move. I would remove straight razors, knives, ropes, cables, sleeping pills, pain meds, anything she could easily harm herself or harm you with.

2.) Move out, the sooner the better.

3.) Seek individual counseling for yourself.

4.) Seek the advice of a qualified attorney regarding your options, and how the laws in your state address help for mentally ill family members.

5.) File for a legal separation.

I think she is becoming unhinged, and she is a danger to you and herself. This is serious business, and you must treat it as such, this is now about much more than your sexual satisfaction and improving your relationship.

Good luck...make your move and don't look back.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Mr. Indy,

Now I realize why things never worked out between the two of you! You married your wife expecting that she is a normal human being. Unfortunately, she is not (pardon my expressions, your language is more difficult than I imagine).

It's like buying an Acer laptop with the hopes that it will run Apple Mac Operating System. It will not work properly. Sure, you can use a hacked Mac operating system on an Acer, but it still won't change the fact that it is an Acer not an Apple, and the Acer will not work as good as a genuine Apple.

You tried to make your relationship better with the assumption that she is normal human being, and thus you made serious efforts in changing yourself and changing your methods in accordance to whatever feels like good idea to bring more happiness to your marriage. Which _might_ have worked if your wife is a normal human. Turned out that she is not as normal as we assumed.

Please read what Mr. Keeper63, Mr. Mineforever and Mr. Uptown's posts above. 

And I believe now we all could see for ourselves, that domestic violence could happen to MEN as well. The only difference is that there are no shelter for battered husbands, only for battered wives. So, Mr. Indy, you are on your own. We are praying for your safety.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

What a draining day it has been. 
First thing I did this morning was to arrange for a good friend to hold onto my firearms. Next, I took her out for breakfast to keep her at peace. I let her know that she will need to find living arrangements, as we can't stay together. She said she didn't know where to go, but she knew she wanted out of the city.
I told her I was going to get a hotel room for her to stay at for a couple of weeks until she can figure out where she wants to live. Later in the day, she said she didn't want to go to any hotel, so here I am, at the hotel...keeping a safe distance.
All day long, she kept rehashing the things that caused this big upheaval. Kept asking why I had to do this or that that caused it all.
I was waiting at any moment for her rage to stir up. Luckily our conversations today were calm and sad.

When I left the house to take my firearms away, she calls me and asks me not to say anything to my friend because she arranged for a Tuesday counseling session in hopes we can repair things.

She is truly running it in circles in her head...thinks we can still repair our marriage, then falls into reality and realizes we are over. A vicious cycle that I really feel sorry for her when she is in the moments of awareness of what her actions have caused. She keeps asking me if we can just go back to where we were just before the upset....she felt things were on an even keel and thinks I messed everything up.

I point out to her that it is she whom chose to call something I made mention of as being a deal breaker...the thing that just sets us apart too far to continue on together. It is she that said our marriage was over. Her actions only reinforced that fact.

I'm contacting an attorney in the morning.

Now I have to figure out how to get her out of my house...well, it's a rental with both of our names on the lease, but she doesn't work.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> Now I have to figure out how to get her out of my house...well, it's a rental with both of our names on the lease, but she doesn't work.


I think it's better to let her have the house for awhile. So you can observe what would happen if she is staying in your house without you being in it. Maybe she will suddenly become nicer, making divorce process easier. Or, maybe you will see all your photos with eyes gouged out...

Sorry, bad joke 

But if that happens, it would surely means something..


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Indy, thanks for giving us an update on how the day went following the gun incident. I am very relieved to hear that you decided to stay in a hotel, given that she refuses to move out herself. Wise decision, IMO. I'm so sorry you have to go through the great pain of watching her self destruct, knowing there is absolutely nothing you can do to help her. It is impossible to help someone who, being unable to trust, refuses to believe what you are saying.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I know it goes against everything I've read, but I gently brought up the possibility she has some form of mental illness, just as her mother had. I pulled up a list of symptoms for BPD and she agreed that it describes her. She agreed to go seek treatment if an evaluation found anything. 
She is so desparate to keep me, she is agreeable to anything.

She is attributing her rage with the level of Testosterone she has been given. She said that she noticed after applying the cream, she gets all jittery, kind of like how caffeine makes you feel wired.

Anger and hostility problems are signs of taking too much. At least that is for normal people. I think the testosterone may be too much for someone with BPD.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

I don't think so. She has already behaved eratically before the cream, right? Don't think the cream was the culprit.

Go to a hospital with good psychiatric facility, and have her tested. That's for her own good.

Just make sure that you are well informed in regards to what medications and other actions that the doctors will do to cure her.

We never know what modern medicines can do. Maybe they will prescribe a medicine which may bring her a little bit normal, but also would kill her libido 300%

Frankly, divorce sounds like a much better option than anything at this moment.

You don't want to wake up with your genitals no longer attached.

Sorry, bad joke


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

That's what I was just tossing around in my head...

Can she be trusted if she goes off of the Testoterone cream? I want to trust her. I just don't thnk I would have the full confidence at this point. It's a sexual issue she is raging about now, what will be the best thing that sets her off? I don't want to be in a position where my guard is let down and then she makes her strike.

The cream has only been applied for about a week now, so it was during her rage fest. 
But this reminds me of the time some 10 years ago when she was having trouble sleeping and I wake to a raging wife, screaming at me that she can't sleep. Things settle down, I go back to sleep and she does it again. Litterally scaring me as I am asleep. Waking me just so I can't sleep, since she can't. I don't care to have any more sessions of that...no thank you.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I'm taking a road trip this morning to one of our offices up in Michigan this morning. About a 4 hour drive each way.
I've talked to my wife about it and she said she'd like to go, so I've arrange to pick her up as I head out of town.
This will give us a little bit of time to talk, but mostly I am going to have the radio on, playing her favorite cd collection I asked her to assemble before I pick her up.
I don't think she'd try anything stupid while we are on the road...I feel somewhat safe being alert during the day. It is at night she can't be trusted.

I bounced that back and forth though my head as I fell asleep last night. She is the one that has come up with the instances that became deal breakers, yet she is the one now asking if we can just go back before the upset and carry on from there. 
This is about the forth time I have seen my wife rage to the point I feared for my safety. Just a few weeks ago, she was getting pissed because I had mentioned something to her about my need to feel more desire...just touch me once in a while...
She then began to act out in a childish manner, her version of me wanting touched...then used excessive force and attempted to grab my crotch area...let's just say I am glad she missed when I flinched and just grabbed a section of my hip instead.

This really is tearing me up...I love her as the person I use to know and the bond we've shared for 17 years of being together. It kills me that this is now where we are left...

I probably won't be able to do another update until I get back from Michigan this evening.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Good luck Mr. Indy. I hope you'll be safe in your trip. Can you take a friend or relative along? Just in case?


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

The trip was a huge success and almost frightening at the same time. Her sense of self and her perceptions of what has transpired is amazingly accurate and even the analysis of her actions are spot on. 

Right after I picked her up this morning, I started in with something about our relationship and she stopped me. She asked if we didn't speak of anything that would lead to us getting emotional...I agreed.
We spent nearly the entire trip listening to Opeth, Iced Earth, Dream Theater and Nevermore. She dosed off and on both ways. I would occasionally look over at her and at different times, I could see the emotion on her face. They ranged from sadness to depressed to nervously mildly happy... 
She was mentioning something and saw my eyes tear up, so she changed the subject.
As we were speaking tonight after we got back to our rental where she is currently staying, she tells me that she has been reading this book called Spiritual Cleansing and now has a better understanding of herself. She said that while she does agree that she matches many of the symptoms for BPD, the book describes her better and thinks as long as she follows this book, she will be fine and never have an outrage at me again. She truly believes it. She is so convinced of this that she read several passages of the book. It all sounds good from what she read. It basically sounds like a self help book on how to deal with different stresses in your life. It tells the reader to hit a pillow instead of your actual target. It gives many examples of ways to relieve uncontrollable rage and hostility, without hurting anyone.

Can this book actually heal her? Or at least give me confidence, reassurance that she won't rage one night because she can't sleep, and rather than follow the stress relieving steps, she just chooses to take a kitchen knife to me in my sleep?

She was in such a sense of calm and awareness, it was a bit eerie scary...almost freightening how together she seemed to be. It was like she was some sort of physician that analyzed herself and the explanation to have to me was spot on...like she knew exactly how terrible she treated me. She said she felt sorry for the way she has treated me all of these years. She said how self centered, immature...you name it, she was describing herself to a T.
She asked me if I got the hotel room for a week and I said yes.
She then said she knows that being apart for this time will do us both good and give us time to reflect and also heal.
She is somewhat hopefull I will take her back.
Not so much today, but yesterday she kept saying that I ended it, can't we work it out? Don't we have a chance?
Today I pointed out the fact that I ultimately put the deal breaker out there, which was that I needed to have more and frequent sex and to have a sense that she actually desired me, not just use me as a meal ticket.
Friday, when she blew up about me not yet happy with our frequency, that she isn't touching me enough...she then raised her hands in the air and said it was over, that she gives up...she can't do this anymore.
I brought to her attention that she is agreeing to the deal breaker, not that I am choosing to end the relationship.

She then asked if I'd feel safe after the 7 days away. I told her I don't know the answer to that because she has had repeated episodes where she would rage. A couple of times at night and a couple during the day. 
And this last one where Friday night after she starts raging, she asks me to put a bullet in her head, then Saturday morning she is fumbling around at my safe and after I ask her what she is doing she replies that she just wants to die. Then starts raging about not sleeping and threatening me that I will not sleep either. And her physical abuse was not just from this previous time. She has lashed out at me before, but we were standing and I was able to catch her arms as she was swinging them towards me. I wasn't so fortunate this last time. 
Can this woman be trusted? She thinks she doesn't need medication, so long as she follows the steps in that book?

I am actually pretty convinced we are done. It is amazing how she seemed to be accepting of the fact that may be a possibility.
Yet, you can see the want in her facial expressin how badly she wants everything to be on an even keel, as she would say. 
Why do I still care so much for this woman, even though she has treated me as she has? 
I forgot to mention, just as I was getting ready to leave, she said, oh yeah...come here...
She sits on the edge of the love seat and tells me to sit in front of her, she wants to give me a back rub. She said it wasn't sexual in natural, it was simply to relieve stress from driving for 8 hours today. I think it comes from what she read in her book.
I allowed her to give the back rub. I waited until her touch was fairly light then I pulled away and turned and thanked her. I didn't want to wait around for her to progress her touch further than I think either one of us would have actually been comfortable with.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Mr. Indy,

Don't be so surprised about this:



> ..she knew exactly how terrible she treated me. She said she felt sorry for the way she has treated me all of these years. She said how self centered, immature...you name it, she was describing herself to a T..


Yes, she knew it all along. But she tortured you anyway. This is an abnormal person we're talking about.

and, ...No, she wasn't sorry about how she treated you all these years... If she was actually, genuinely sorry, she will say something about "I will make it up to you by being the best wife I could be", and get professional help. 

No, she was just trying to put up an act "as if" she has become a normal person.

And you can forget that backrub. That's another tactic she's using to bait you into forgiving her and putting up with her antics again.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Yeah, somehow I knew it was wrong, but we had gotten along so well today, she even caught a couple of times where she was becoming angry and stopped it in its tracks. 

I did contact an attorney today and I meet with them on Wednesday.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Look at your upcoming divorce in a more positive way. If you still love her, then even after the divorce, your feelings maybe will not change much (unless you get someone better). After you two becomes single again, there are no laws that says you cannot get back together again. 

The fact that she's losing you might be giving her a good motivation to get professional help. While you go happily doing whatever you feels like doing. 

Maybe after getting real professional help, she might become more-or-less normal. 

And if the two of you still love each other (and no one took her place in your heart yet) then you two could begin courting each other again, see where it leads. By that time, you will be dating a more-or-less normal version of her, not the abnormal version whom you have divorced.

Please pardon my optimism. I hope realistic people here will chime in to counterbalance my optimism.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> I just can't win for trying...
> 
> Again, sitting on the love seat,



You know, that love seat gets more softness from your wife than to do?



IndyTMI said:


> She tried to pin this on me like I was grudge masturbating because she wouldn't touch me right then and there. I tried to reason with her, but that is an impossible task.
> She takes this masturbation thing and gets raging mad about it.


Indy, you could have been picking your nose and she'd rage about that. You could have been leaving the seat up, could have been flossing your teeth. It doesn't matter what YOU did or do, she will rage because she is in the mood to paint to red for rage. That's what her mood dictated and that's what she did, and will continue to do.



IndyTMI said:


> won't answer.
> I asked her about employment or working for herself...what classes or training does she need? She doesn't want to work.


If she works, she'll be responsible for something and you know she just doesn't do "responsible." But that isn't your problem.



IndyTMI said:


> Now I have to break this to her 25 year old son. He knows she is not quite stable.


Um, why? He's her son. Yes it wold be nice but you don't own this task, she does.



IndyTMI said:


> Monday I'll be contacting an attorney to have divorce papers drawn up.



:allhail:

I came to check up on you and was getting more and more worried at seeing you continually getting sucked into her drama. And it is drama, just plane old drama. the kind of drama that any sane, reasonable person would get sick of in a few short months.

So, I'm reading through the posts and getting more and more concerned. Thinking to myself, oh geese this poor guy isn't going to see the light and there isn't a darn thing anyone can say that will be effective enough to offer the kind of hope for a life that you so obviously want, deserve and are more than capable of getting! Just, not from this woman. EVER!

Clearly, your love for her has completely blinded you to the reality of the situation. Notice that there isn't one person here who has suggestions for helping you work this out. This is unworkable! AND, it will always be thus! Listen to Saki, aka Saki's speedy epic awesomeness! He's blunt, but he is giving you the right info. I guess you just haven't been in the right place to hear it.

But you are now! Bravo!


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> She said that while she does agree that she matches many of the symptoms for BPD, the book describes her better and thinks as long as she follows this book, she will be fine and never have an outrage at me again. She truly believes it. She is so convinced of this that she read several passages of the book. It all sounds good from what she read. It basically sounds like a self help book on how to deal with different stresses in your life. It tells the reader to hit a pillow instead of your actual target. It gives many examples of ways to relieve uncontrollable rage and hostility, without hurting anyone.


Ohhhhhhh No! No No No NO!!!!!!



IndyTMI said:


> Can this book actually heal her? Or at least give me confidence, reassurance that she won't rage one night because she can't sleep, and rather than follow the stress relieving steps, she just chooses to take a kitchen knife to me in my sleep?


I say again, Oh No, no no no no NO!



IndyTMI said:


> She was in such a sense of calm and awareness, it was a bit eerie scary...almost freightening how together she seemed to be. It was like she was some sort of physician that analyzed herself and the explanation to have to me was spot on...like she knew exactly how terrible she treated me. She said she felt sorry for the way she has treated me all of these years. She said how self centered, immature...you name it, she was describing herself to a T.
> She asked me if I got the hotel room for a week and I said yes.
> She then said she knows that being apart for this time will do us both good and give us time to reflect and also heal.
> She is somewhat hopefull I will take her back.


Once again, No NO NO NO NO!!!

Go pick out any book that talks about moods, sleep disorders, stress and the symptoms will also describe her. What the books don't describe is her selfishness. Is her ability to accept your love, as her just due, when she doesn't, didn't, can't, and won't, return that love. Do those books talk about that? 

She is trying to keep hold of her enabler. With out you, who will support her and she indulges her moods, her rages, her impulses, her insecurities? Of course she wants to hang onto you. With out you, she will HAVE to take a long hard look at herself, and she will do anything to avoid that crushing responsibility. Font accept her crumbs, they won't even amount to the crust of bread!
.


IndyTMI said:


> And this last one where Friday night after she starts raging, she asks me to put a bullet in her head, then Saturday morning she is fumbling around at my safe and after I ask her what she is doing she replies that she just wants to die. Then starts raging about not sleeping and threatening me that I will not sleep either.


Suicidal ideation or threats... That would be another thing not found in stress books, yes?



IndyTMI said:


> Can this woman be trusted? She thinks she doesn't need medication, so long as she follows the steps in that book?


At the risk of repeating myself endlessly, No NO NO NO NO!



IndyTMI said:


> I am actually pretty convinced we are done. It is amazing how she seemed to be accepting of the fact that may be a possibility.
> Yet, you can see the want in her facial expressin how badly she wants everything to be on an even keel, as she would say.
> Why do I still care so much for this woman, even though she has treated me as she has?


I'm glad you are asking that question. Why do you care bout this woman who has treated you abusively, disrespectfully, and without real remorse? Why do battered women stay with their abusive men? Why? Because she "romanced" you to fall in love with her. The she groomed you to teach you to take responsibility for her behavior, she used sex and she used your love for her to get you to do what she wanted to do. Now that she risks loosing you, she will show to all sorts of pretty pouts and insincere apologies. Stay Strong!



IndyTMI said:


> I forgot to mention, just as I was getting ready to leave, she said, oh yeah...come here...
> She sits on the edge of the love seat and tells me to sit in front of her, she wants to give me a back rub. She said it wasn't sexual in natural, it was simply to relieve stress from driving for 8 hours today. I think it comes from what she read in her book.
> I allowed her to give the back rub. I waited until her touch was fairly light then I pulled away and turned and thanked her. I didn't want to wait around for her to progress her touch further than I think either one of us would have actually been comfortable with.


She won't make progress, but YOU will! I promise you, make that break, get back into life, find a relationship with a healthy person and you will look back at this and shake your head at the time you've wasted!


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Oh Indy, guns?

Please ask yourself, if you had a sister or daughter who was married to a person who does what your wife does, what would you expect them to do? What would you want them to do?

Okay, now get your head on straight and do it!


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

This is pretty pathetic.

SHE aske and you said "Doh...OKAY!" The woman who was trying to PULL A GUN and do...something...and you said 'Doh..okay!"

And then you made it worse!

"I'll pick YOU up and YOU can listen to YOUR favorite songs and we'll talk about what YOU want to talk about, and YOU can doze off and on at your leisure. YOU don't have to do ANY of the driving."

And when she offers a back rub, you stop it because it would make her feel bad.

Indy...get some help. Honestly.

I don't believe you'll divorce her. She'll trot out some **** and bull story and give you a few back rubs, a few hummers and you'll think you went to Heaven...and then it will all go back again.

Why is her happiness so intensely a focus of your life when YOU are in so much pain? You think "If only I show her exactly how much I love her...HOW can she keep hurting me?"

Well, we've seen the answer to that. She will. She doesn't care.

She doesn't want a divorce not because she loves you in any way I would care to be loved. It's because she won't find someone who will put up with her nonsense. She will have to invest effort to keep herself together long enough to find another sucker...and it's much easier to give you a few BJs instead.

Get a divorce and get some therapy for yourself.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

IndyTMI said:


> The trip was a huge success.


No, the trip was a huge mistake, a step backward in your healing. The only thing successful about the trip was that you returned alive.


> She has been reading this book called Spiritual Cleansing .... thinks as long as she follows this book, she will be fine.


Indy, if she is a BPDer as you suspect, her emotional development likely is frozen at the level of a four year old. This means she never learned the mature ego defenses. Instead, she is stuck with the primitive ego defenses we all rely on as children. These include projection, denial, black-white thinking, and temper tantrums. These primitive defenses also include magical thinking, which is what you are seeing here. In that way, she avoids doing the hard work of attending therapy weekly for many years. Instead, she just opens a book.


> It tells the reader to hit a pillow.... Can this book actually heal her?


Hit a pillow? HIT A PILLOW? Are you serious? If she has strong BPD traits, she has to learn how to manage her emotions, how to love herself, how to trust, how to deal with her terrible abandonment fear, how to be able to tolerate intimacy without feeling suffocated, how to be emotionally stable, how to perceive other people as grey instead of black or white, and how to intellectually challenge her intense feelings instead of accepting them as reality.

What I'm saying is that, if you are married to a BPDer, you essentially are married to a four year old who has the intelligence, cunning, knowledge, and body strength of a full grown adult. You therefore do NOT have a husband/child relationship. Rather, you have a parent/child relationship. And because that child is emotionally unstable, full of rage, and has the body strength of a full grown adult, you are in a dangerous situation and are still at great risk.


> She was in such a sense of calm and awareness, it was a bit eerie scary...almost freightening how together she seemed to be.


High functioning BPDers generally behave calmly and normally most of the time. That's the way unstable people are -- i.e., normal for days and, then in ten seconds, they flip to devaluing you or hating you. This is why it is extremely difficult to determine whether therapy is working for a BPDer. You will see a BPDer greatly improving every two or three weeks. Like smokers who are "always quitting," BPDers seem to be "always improving." 

What you usually are seeing, however, is simply the "hoovering" phase of their push-you-away and pull-you-back cycle. It is called "hoovering" because the suction is so powerful that it will remind you of the popular vacuum cleaner.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I know I must move on. She is damaged goods, for sure.

Maybe I'm too compassionate in general, but I do have this heavy feeling of needing to help her. 
Not out of any guilt that she has placed upon me, but just simply from a humanitarian perspective. This woman obviously needs help.
The other day, I was able to convince her to get a phyc eval, at least she agreed to getting one. But I think I'll have to be the one that sets up the appointment.

Right now I am trying to figure out living arrangements. The house I am currently renting will come due for renewal or end in July. If I can't kick her out, I guess she will just run out of a place to stay come July.

There is another house I found in the country that is available, I was thinking of going ahead and getting it, even though I would be paying double rent for a few months, it would at least give me a place to stay away from her. It would be around $5000 extra I would be spending for that time period, but for my safety and security, I'm willing to do it. Maybe the attorney can give me some advice regarding her living arrangements.

Oh, just a note regarding her comment about what she said when trying to get into my gun safe. Last night she told me that she wasn't trying to get my gun, she was just rattling the door because it makes a fairly loud noise and she was just trying to get my attention.


She is trying to stay close to me. Last week, the company I work for let the HR/accountant go for poor performance. That is my wife's area of profession, and she is wanting to submit her resume. She just sent me a text inquiring about the position.
In her text it said...I just had a crazy thought...

I was thinking, well of course you had a crazy thought, right after the pervious crazy thought, and there will be one behind that one too.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Mr. Indy,

Mr. Uptown above has good analysis.

The only way for her to live a normal person's life is to get professional help. Psychiatric help. Modern Psychiatric Medicine. You're right on setting up an appointment for her. Let's see if she has the willpower to take the treatment.

BTW, her taking the treatments does not mean you must stay married to her. Proceed to your divorce as planned. After your divorce, you could still keep on monitoring her as a "humanitarian action".


----------



## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

You have a choice to ride the crazy train with her or not.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Saturday, when I was taking my guns away to a friend's house, she called me and asked if I would not mention our problems and possible divorce to my friend.
She had just previously called and left a message with her counselor to schedule an emergency meeting for us.
She said that if we have a chance to heal and repair our troubles, spreading word about our problems isn't doing any good. In her mind, if I don't mention it, then there is less chance of it actually coming true.

Last night after I dropped her off at the house, I went in to gather enough cloths to last me the rest of the week in the hotel.
We spoke about a few things...she said she understands that we may not work this out and there is a possibility that she will be alone for the rest of her life. I know she is already thinking about and contemplating abandonment and how she plans on dealing with it.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> .
> 
> Maybe I'm too compassionate in general, but I do have this heavy feeling of needing to help her.
> Not out of any guilt that she has placed upon me, but just simply from a humanitarian perspective. This woman obviously needs help.


What do flight attendants tell "those traveling with small children" to do in the event of a rapid depressurization? 

Attend to YOUR Mask FIRST. Why? Because an unconscious parent can't save their child.

She has already taken you to crazy town. You aren't able to see straight just yet. You have to leave crazy town, get your mask on. Once you are out and breathing fresh air.... Then you can contemplate that question. Under the guidance of a trained professional





IndyTMI said:


> There is another house I found in the country that is available, I was thinking of going ahead and getting it, even though I would be paying double rent for a few months, it would at least give me a place to stay away from her. It would be around $5000 extra I would be spending for that time period, but for my safety and security, I'm willing to do it. Maybe the attorney can give me some advice regarding her living arrangements.


Yes! You are thinking concrete methodical plans. You are getting yourself out of crazy town. Excellent!



IndyTMI said:


> Oh, just a note regarding her comment about what she said when trying to get into my gun safe. Last night she told me that she wasn't trying to get my gun, she was just rattling the door because it makes a fairly loud noise and she was just trying to get my attention.


Caution: Just because she can admit to extreme attention seeking behavior, doesn't indicate steps toward healing. A 4 year old can also admit that they wanted Mom's attention so the threw the cat out the window. What she failed to feel was the intense shame that should have automatically accompanied that admission. 
Intense shame... Think about that. She is incapable of shame. Shame is what allows us to alter our behavior from bad to good.




IndyTMI said:


> I was thinking, well of course you had a crazy thought, right after the pervious crazy thought, and there will be one behind that one too.


Again, excellent! You are now seeing the cabin's been filling with smoke. Before you would have tried to locate the fire, understand how it came to be there, take steps to put it out... When what you should do is EXIT THE BURNING PLANE!


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> ...she said she understands that we may not work this out and there is a possibility that she will be alone for the rest of her life. I know she is already thinking about and contemplating abandonment and how she plans on dealing with it.


She doesn't have to be alone for the rest of her life, if she gets professional help and making triple-serious effort to become at least more-or-less normal. It must come from her own willpower. When she becomes at least normal most of the times (say, 360 days out of a year), then I am sure you are still willing to drop by and see her every now and then, maybe even have lunch, go to see matinee movies, etc. Just like good friends. So, no, she doesn't have to be alone.

Otherwise, being alone is her own choice.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

My friend that is holding my guns just texts me and ask if I want to stay at his house next couple of weeks to watch his dog while he is out for the week on business. :smthumbup:


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Right after work, I go to pick up my wife and we will be headed to her counselor's place for an hour and a half session.

I don't think much will get resolved other than things will be validated and the realism of us being through will be more apparent.
I actually dread this session, but must just get through it so I can move on with my life.
I will most certainly bring up her actions that can't be defended. 
She did already inform the counselor about abusing me physically, I just don't think she elaborated to the level of it.
This is just crazy. I have way too many friends that are divorcing lately. Is there something in the air?

I am so happy my friend is offering up his place for a few weeks...I am at a point now where I am feeling anxious about getting everything done and over with. Luckily, Indiana has pretty straight forward divorce proceedings. 2 months waiting, so about 3 months altogether.
I have absolutely no debt and my assets are really minimal. I don't think there will be anything that is disputed over, so it ought to be a breeze.
One thing I'm a little sad over, but not a big deal is that when we bought my brother's Trans Am, I put it in her name.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

IndyTMI said:


> She is damaged goods, for sure.


No, Indy, she is not "damaged goods." I would explain why but, with caregivers like you, I would just be singing to the choir. You already know why. If your emotions were not so raw, and if you were not bouncing off the walls right now, you would never say such a thing about another human being. You just don't have it in your nature to do that.


> I do have this heavy feeling of needing to help her.... just simply from a humanitarian perspective.


Like I said, you are a caregiver by nature and, if you've been living with a BPDer for 17 years, you are an excessive caregiver like me -- i.e., a man whose personal boundaries are so low, and his empathy so high, that he ignores his own needs while putting those of others first.


> I was thinking, well of course you had a crazy thought, right after the previous crazy thought, and there will be one behind that one too.


If your W is a BPDer as you believe -- and as Pravius and AnonPink suspected last week -- she is NOT "crazy." Crazy occurs when a person has lost touch with _physical_ reality, e.g., believing that the TV newscaster is speaking to her personally or that the plane flying overhead is spying on her. Significantly, BPDers usually see physical reality just fine. The only thing that typically is distorted is their perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations. Those distortions are caused by their two great fears: abandonment and engulfment (neither of which causes any distortion of physical reality).


> My friend that is holding my guns just texts me and ask if I want to stay at his house next couple of weeks to watch his dog.


I like your friend. He's a keeper.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Uptown said:


> Like I said, you are a caregiver by nature and, if you've been living with a BPDer for 17 years, you are an excessive caregiver like me -- i.e., a man whose personal boundaries are so low, and his empathy so high, that he ignores his own needs while putting those of others first.


I know I have high empathy for people, I believe it is something I learned from my father. He certainly helps anyone in need if asked.
I don't know why I want to play doctor...it's not my job to fix her. I wish I would have learned that lesson long ago. 

Our session with the counselor was painful, but neither one of us got upset or angry...no resentful speak.
It lasted 2 hours. I was able to tell her about everything. I could see the concern in her eyes from what I was telling her. She is glad I have somewhere else to stay, away from her. The counselor now wants to have both individual and together sessions to further work on our relationship. 
I almost feel like I am cheating at this point. I am pretty convinced I am done with this relationship, no matter how much counseling we get. At the end of the session we told each other what we wanted each of us to know, coming away from our session. She said that she loved me and that she hoped we can work things out.

I said that I loved her, and that at this current time, I do not feel safe with her. I will try to find an answer as to how to heal from this and be able to feel safe again.

After I brought her back to the house. I went in to take care of my cats and grab a few more things for my stay away. I hung out for a bit and we chatted lightly about our situation. She has amazingly kept it together and not get angry. 
She made a suggestion, jokingly...
She said she knew how I could be safe with her at night.
We could use the furry padded handcuffs I got her for Christmas and restrain her on the bed. That way, I can have my way with her for as long as I like, then can leave her there all night while I have a good night's sleep.
I jokingly replied that her BDSM fettish is coming out. She is so sexually vanilla, I wonder just how fantasy she actually has gone with those cuffs. She seemed a bit weirded out when I told her today that we were both stimulating each others butt holes last time we masturbated each other. Like she was clueless to where she was touching me and where I was touching her.

Anyway, I got side tracked...back to me feeling like I am cheating.
Since I feel a good 85% positive I want to leave her, especially if she had BPD. To continue down the counseling road seems dishonest and not fair to all involved. I almost felt like telling her that we were through, that I can never trust her again. But a little voice told me to hold off. Wait until the moment is right before you announce your break. I need to plan my exit better than just at a counseling session where we both came in the same vehicle.
I am eager to here what suggestion the attorney can give me.
Since I temporarily moved out, each day after work, I go to the house and eat dinner and hang out a little with my wife and then return to the hotel. Is this wrong of me? Am I supposed to not visit daily? My wife thinks we should stop only if either one of us feel anger or can't remain calm. The counselor didn't really mention anything about ground rules. My wife asked me about sex. I told her that if she was going off of the testosterone and with me staying elsewhere that we should probably refrain from it.
I think she deep down knows the final outcome, but for some reason is having difficulty facing it. I feel so hurting inside to see her feel all of the emotions that are crossing her mind about abandonment. 

Once I establish a more permanent living arrangement and can actually move all of my stuff, I'd feel safer getting her served then, as opposed to whenever else.

The counselor seemed very concerned now with my wife's rage issue and will be focusing on that during there next session. If I can keep her in these sessions and pay for them even after we split, she can hopefully find the help she needs and live a more productive life than just willow away in some lonely old apartment, living in solitude.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> ...If I can keep her in these sessions and pay for them even after we split, she can hopefully find the help she needs and live a more productive life than just willow away in some lonely old apartment, living in solitude...


You're a good man, Mr. Indy. Barakallahufikum, God Bless You!

I hope your efforts will be successful and your (soon to be ex) wife would ultimately thank you. Thank you for putting up with her for so many years, and thank you for getting her professional help.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

My wife recognized that she hurt me. Not just physically, but emotionally throughout the years. She said I need to heal from that. I really don't know how to heal from something like that other than to find someone I'm more compatible with and have a healthy sexual relationship with them.

She is most certainly in fear of losing me. During the counseling session, she noted something about when couples separate that infidelity sometimes creeps in. 
She's afraid that I will seek it elsewhere since we currently aren't engaging sexually.
Later at the house, she made mention of it a couple more times, so I could certainly appreciate the concern my wife had. I reassured her that while I was staying elsewhere, I have no intentions to having any other contact with women. That is unethical and it's not me.

It hurts me to think about the time invested in this relationship and how it was always hanging by few threads. I have told her in the past that she should be thankful to have me because most men would have bailed long, long ago. She knows this and on very few occasions has thanked me for being her pillar.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> My wife recognized that she hurt me. Not just physically, but emotionally throughout the years. She said I need to heal from that. I really don't know how to heal from something like that other than to find someone I'm more compatible with and have a healthy sexual relationship with them.
> 
> She is most certainly in fear of losing me. During the counseling session, she noted something about when couples separate that infidelity sometimes creeps in.
> She's afraid that I will seek it elsewhere since we currently aren't engaging sexually.
> ...


Mr. Indy,

Please allow me to forget for awhile that I am a S.E Asian man, and let me adopt Western swear word for this instance.

B*llsh*t!!!!!!!!!

B*llsh*t!!!!!!!!!

She is still trying to deceive you with her words.

Action speak louder than words

If she really really means what she said, AT THE VERY LEAST she should come to you and begged you for a chance to please you sexually. NOT JUST TALK.

And this should be given WITH NO STRINGS ATTACHED. She should say something like "..Please take me, have your way with me anyway you like. I won't refuse anymore. You could still divorce me anyway, if it's your choice. But I want to make it up to you, I want to show you I am very sorry for your sexlessness all this year.."

No action = b**lsh*t!!

She knows you're a person with a heart of Gold, and she is now trying to take advantage of that.

Don't be deceived for the Nth time!

Now, let me go back to being a civilized S.E. Asian man


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

That's great! So very glad you are standing up for yourself. After what you've put up with for all these years you have to become your own advocate and own your right to have your needs met, your right to have your love, care and concern meaningfully returned. Good for you!

Ive raised 3 daughters through the teenage years. I've had to place serious restrictions on them from time to time, to reinforce the boundaries and expectations of behavior. I don't punish quickly, but when I do, it's firm! 

During those times, when electronics are taken away (among other freedoms) their behavior has improved so well my husband wants to give them time off for good behavior. But I remind him they know what we expect and they know the consequences. Giving them time off only rewards them for the pretty pouts and teaches them to manipulate to get out of consequences. The reason why we punish is to have them learn from their mistakes before they become adults when mistakes tend to have more permanent consequences.

Indy, your wife is paving the way for you to come back in her life. She is manipulating by showing you her very great sorrow! She's showing a very pretty pout designed just for you. She's romancing you by appealing to your compulsion to rescue and care. Detaching yourself from her problems isn't abandonment. Letting go with love isn't turning your back. You have been the one to own all her issues. 

You've given some pretty extreme examples of her complete disregard for you, for your feelings, for your needs. Really extreme! You've talked about her refusal to get a job also. Her getting and keeping a job is something, I think, is the most telling. If she can get a job and keep that job then she might actually be trying to work on herself and become a better person who is worthy of your love. That will take a year or more to prove she is ready to learn to be an adult. Same job in good standing for a year or more, just to prove that she is where she claims to be. No time off for good behavior, pretty pouts or heartfelt confessions. 

During that time, you have to work on you. You have to learn the difference between caring and enabling. You have to relearn your boundaries, your rightful expectations of being loved. You have to learn to let go of the things you cannot change, the courage to change the things that you can and the wisdom to know the difference. Sound familiar? Serenity is a beautiful thing and those that seek it tend to glow from within and attract all the good things life has to offer.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Mr. Indy,
> 
> Please allow me to forget for awhile that I am a S.E Asian man, and let me adopt Western swear word for this instance.
> 
> ...


Holy Cow! Now look what you did to Mr. John!:lol:


----------



## Sweetmaya (Feb 14, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Mr. Indy,
> 
> Please allow me to forget for awhile that I am a S.E Asian man, and let me adopt Western swear word for this instance.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree:

Stop the madness... how can you not see that she IS STILL trying to control what you do, even if and WHEN you separate....She's mascarading control under "fear of losing you" PLEASE wake up!!!!! 
REAL LOVE IS NOT CONTROLLING!!!!


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

You guys may think I'm crazy, but the caregiver within me wants to help her as much as possible.
Many thoughts have run through my head about different measures I can take to help our separation become more permanent.

I was thinking of prepaying her an apartment for 6 months, enough time for her to find a job and continue living on her own.
I've offered up to buy her a PC/tablet and sign her up for any training she wants, for bookkeeping or anything else she would take interest in. She's only mentioned the tablet so far, but that's because she's not yet knowing I won't be around.

I understand these intentions are to help her become less dependent on me, but doing so is in itself extending that dependency.

How can I help her without creating further dependency?


----------



## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

The term you should be using is "caretaker"

Not "caregiver"


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> You guys may think I'm crazy, but the caregiver within me wants to help her as much as possible.
> Many thoughts have run through my head about different measures I can take to help our separation become more permanent.
> 
> I was thinking of prepaying her an apartment for 6 months, enough time for her to find a job and continue living on her own.
> ...


Dear Mr. Indy,

You sure you want to buy her an expensive equipment?

When she found out (or you told her) that no matter what the result of her counselling, you'd still want a divorce anyway... You can watch out that she would send the Tablet flying right between your eyes! She's dangerous when enraged, remember?

My friend Reynaldo would be delighted to be presented the opportunity to fix a broken Tablet, but the shipping & handling cost would be more expensive than his repairing fees 

Sorry Mr. Indy, I was joking.

But seriously,

Better tell her NOW that you want a divorce anyway. After she's cool with that, THEN you buy her something..


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> How can I help her without creating further dependency?


Excellent question!!!!

You really can't help her because anything you do, anything you give her, any on going support will be twisted and manipulated.

Give her a lump sum, or a set amount each month <-- you just send the check like any per monthly payment. What she does with that help is her decision. If she wants to be trained for something, she can do that all be herself. If she wants a PC and other tools, she can also get those all by herself. If she wants employment help, there is a lot of that available for free. If she wants job coaching, she can also get that, sometimes for free.

She is hooked up in therapy, from there she can be referred to all sorts of programs to help her get on her feet. Id you own this for her, you remain in crazy town and she will manipulate you to death.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> You guys may think I'm crazy, but the caregiver within me wants to help her as much as possible.


No, actually this sounds very reasonable



> I was thinking of prepaying her an apartment for 6 months, enough time for her to find a job and continue living on her own.


This is also very reasonable and very humane.



> I've offered up to buy her a PC/tablet and sign her up for any training she wants, for bookkeeping or anything else she would take interest in. She's only mentioned the tablet so far, but that's because she's not yet knowing I won't be around.


As I have stated above.. LET HER KNOW that you want a divorce first. If she's cool with that, then buy her a Samsung Galaxy Tab or whatever you think is good for her.



> I understand these intentions are to help her become less dependent on me, but doing so is in itself extending that dependency.
> 
> How can I help her without creating further dependency?


No. That's giving her a headstart to become more independent. That is a humane thing to do.

What would create further dependency is if you don't divorce her ASAP.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Why reassure her that you'll never cheat? I mean, you don't have to cheat or anything, but why reassure her of that fact? Why not let her wheels spin on that thought for a bit? I agree with John Lord. Her talk is just that. Talk. Don't start catering to her until you see action. As long as her panties are still on, nothing has changed.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Why reassure her that you'll never cheat? I mean, you don't have to cheat or anything, but why reassure her of that fact? Why not let her wheels spin on that thought for a bit? I agree with John Lord. Her talk is just that. Talk. Don't start catering to her until you see action. As long as her panties are still on, nothing has changed.


At this point, I have no intentions of seeing her panties again. She passed up too many opportunities for this, and has finally passed the option of this any longer. I was thinking that if my reassurance can soothe and calm her for the time being, continued interaction with her until she does become aware of my permanent separation will be less intense and a bit more civil. 
I am a bit fearful of her reaction once she does become aware.


----------



## Pravius (Dec 12, 2012)

Indy, 

We are literally in a very very similar boat. My wife is so much like yours!!! I have chosen to stay, however, I am not going to be the person that I was. I am going to give her a fair shot to fix herself, the way I see it is, for me the past 8 years have been me taking care of her, because I like you am also a caretaker. 

I want to give her a fair shot, that is just my way of knowing that I did everything in my power (from caretaking, to setting boundaries, etc), to make our marriage work. 

Granted my wife has bown up on me many many times she has never gone to the great lengths of making me feel scared about living with her. I personally think my wife shows light BPD traits, so to me, it's somewhat manageable given the fact I know that it's not me that is the problem (for a long time I actually believed that). 

Anyway I commend you on what you are doing. My wife does the same push and pull and holy cow how I know what you feel. I could never figure out why one day she would be incredibly nice and the next she would literally hate me and pick me apart, now I know why, I just do not let it happen anymore because of the boundaries I put up for myself, and I also do not buy into her "I am always sick, feeling bad, want to die." stuff. She says that and my immediate response is "Honey I am so sorry you feel bad. If there is anything I can do to help, let me know" as opposed to what I would say before "Let me fix it for you, you want to talk about it? I will do anything to help you!!!" 

It seems to have worked so far, but I am not holding my breath.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

IndyTMI said:


> At this point, I have no intentions of seeing her panties again. She passed up too many opportunities for this, and has finally passed the option of this any longer. I was thinking that if my reassurance can soothe and calm her for the time being, continued interaction with her until she does become aware of my permanent separation will be less intense and a bit more civil.
> I am a bit fearful of her reaction once she does become aware.


Talk is cheap. If you keep setting up her schedules, giving her money, etc, it means you get to drag out having a connection with her so you don't feel bad about yourself by 'abandoning' someone who is broken.

But...you didn't break her. You invested TONS of time and effort to 'fix' her.

She doesn't want fixing. She's happy to not sleep with you, not work, take your money and your back rubs without ANY RECIPROCATION.

So I have to wonder if horribly selfish is broken...or just horribly selfish.

If you keep putting a damned pillow under her, she's never going to hit rock bottom.

There IS a cushion to deal with these situations. It's called 'ALIMONEY" She can actually use it for classes, tablets, marketing her skills...or a thousand cats and a case of cake frosting.

BUT...it is entirely ON HER. 

You have serious co-dependency issues. Get help.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Wait, so you're basically sneaking away and just waiting for her to figure out on her own that you're not coming back. All to avoid her reaction?

Have you read no more mr. nice guy? I just ask because you're demonstrating pretty bad behavior by doing this. Don't you think that you should be up front with her and tell her that she's crossed the line and that you're through?


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Pravius said:


> Indy,
> 
> We are literally in a very very similar boat. My wife is so much like yours!!! I have chosen to stay, however, I am not going to be the person that I was. I am going to give her a fair shot to fix herself, the way I see it is, for me the past 8 years have been me taking care of her, because I like you am also a caretaker.
> 
> ...


Hi Pravius, maybe you could offer some specific boundary setting techniques that you've done to enforce your LACK of ownership over her problems while at the same time conveying empathy for her feelings?


----------



## Pravius (Dec 12, 2012)

Indy, 

Check this out: 

http://www.codaworldfellowship.org/pdfs/patterns2.pdf 

I am also codependent, it sounds like you may have some qualities, this has helped me HUGE!


----------



## Pravius (Dec 12, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Hi Pravius, maybe you could offer some specific boundary setting techniques that you've done to enforce your LACK of ownership over her problems while at the same time conveying empathy for her feelings?


Absolutely! Would be happy to. Prior to my own "transformation" my mindset was, I need to make my wife happy so I can get the things that I want (don't get me wrong I love my wife too more than anything). Things like "If I clean the house and do all the work so she does not have to then maybe she will have time for sex"! So I would do all the home chores and everything so when she came home literally all she needed to do was initiate sex with me. 

I obviously did not realize it at the time but I was building unrealistic expectations in my head, and I would expect she would come home and magically be some different person because I did these things for her, and when she did not do these things that I had pent up in my head I would get frustrated and angry at her, she never really knew why. This was my own doing.


I am also a recovering codependent, I needed to realize that I was codependent before I made any of these changes within myself because for awhile I thought I was fine and had no issue, I felt like I was always just a bit more needy than other people.

I always knew I was codependent but never knew what the word was or the exact criteria was in being that label, but I saw a therapist and she qickly pointed that out to me. 

I changed my mindset, instead of living my life for my wife, I started living it for me. The minute I changed my mindset the boundaries came along with it. I resuse to be talked to like dirt, I refuse to be bribed to have sex, I give myself the respect I deserve, once I started giving it to myself it started to feel that people around me started to give it to me too.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Pravius said:


> Indy,
> 
> We are literally in a very very similar boat. My wife is so much like yours!!! I have chosen to stay, however, I am not going to be the person that I was. I am going to give her a fair shot to fix herself, the way I see it is, for me the past 8 years have been me taking care of her, because I like you am also a caretaker.
> 
> ...


Perhaps when your care-taking has been extended to my duration, your continued patients will probably be different than it is today. I know mine has been dwindling over these past few years.
The interactions and responses I get from her have been all too telling that she isn't really willing to work on the relationship to satisfy my needs. She read The Five Love Languages and His Needs, Her Needs and actually seems to understand them and take note, but she soon forgets within a day or so, and I have told her she needs to read them every few days so she doesn't forget. I know she doesn't actually forget, she just chooses not to participate.

I think one of the biggest things that really gets me emotional is seeing her emotions.
It hurts me so much inside to see it run rampant. 
All I want to do is comfort her when I see her hurting. To see her in tears, crying like a little child that got in trouble for doing something wrong...I can't take it...my empathy overrules me.
But she never comforted me when I was hurting...


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Why reassure her that you'll never cheat? I mean, you don't have to cheat or anything, but why reassure her of that fact? Why not let her wheels spin on that thought for a bit? I agree with John Lord. Her talk is just that. Talk. Don't start catering to her until you see action. As long as her panties are still on, nothing has changed.





IndyTMI said:


> At this point, I have no intentions of seeing her panties again. She passed up too many opportunities for this, and has finally passed the option of this any longer. I was thinking that if my reassurance can soothe and calm her for the time being, continued interaction with her until she does become aware of my permanent separation will be less intense and a bit more civil.
> I am a bit fearful of her reaction once she does become aware.


Mr. Indy,

What Mr. Working and me were saying is this.
This is not the question about seeing her panties.
This is to see her doing something for YOU. Not just talk. ACTION.

YOU need to make yourself SURE whether she is really regretful, or is it just another PLOY.

If she is just "no sex, just talk", YOU can be sure that she is NOT regretful, it's just a PLOY.

It is YOU who need to see whether she is just plotting another deceitful act, or is being sincere.

Otherwise, you will never be able to divorce her, you will always be thinking "What if.. what if.. what if she's really regretting it this time?"

Tell her exactly that you want real regular sex and no more refusing, otherwise she is being insincere. See her reactions.

If her action is anything else OTHER than strip naked and urge you to take her anytime (and actually allowing you to have your way, not just teasing, and actually making serious efforts to make you enjoy it, not just dead-fishing), then YOU can be certain, no justification needed, that she is not regretful.

Knowing her, I am sure she won't cave in. She still thinks that she could get you to do her every bidding without her doing anything in return.

And you can divorce her with peace of mind. Knowing that you have done the right thing.

Don't buy that Galaxy Tab yet


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Wait, so you're basically sneaking away and just waiting for her to figure out on her own that you're not coming back. All to avoid her reaction?
> 
> Have you read no more mr. nice guy? I just ask because you're demonstrating pretty bad behavior by doing this. Don't you think that you should be up front with her and tell her that she's crossed the line and that you're through?


Yes...it is her reaction I fear, as the other night when she didn't like the outcome of our evening, I wake to a raging wife speaking about killing and viciously attacks me. I don't fear what she feels, but do fear the actions she may take with gaining that new information.
Right now I have a hotel room with just my week's worth of clothing. Everything else I own is at the rental house where she is staying.

So, you think it is advisable to inform her with her possibly having BPD of my intentions right now? I speak with an attorney in a few hours and will seek their advice on the situation as well.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Mr. Indy,
> 
> What Mr. Working and me were saying is this.
> This is not the question about seeing her panties.
> ...


I think this is great advice if I still think there is a chance to rekindle the flame. I think I'm past that now.

I don't want to give her anymore chances, because I have given her 13 years of marriage for that opportunity. She makes an initial investment in my concerns, then days later it trails away and I'm back to square one. I am done running in a loop.
Her actions on this matter reminds me of a bad employee. They keep doing stuff wrong, performing badly and you keep giving them counseling sessions and multiple reviews to correct it. They change for a short period, then fall back to their old habits...because they simple don't care and are only focused on their own self centered agenda.

I think giving her an other chance is leading her on.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> *I think this is great advice if I still think there is a chance to rekindle the flame. I think I'm past that now.*
> 
> *I don't want to give her anymore chances, because I have given her 13 years of marriage for that opportunity*. She makes an initial investment in my concerns, then days later it trails away and I'm back to square one. I am done running in a loop.


:smthumbup::smthumbup:

Mr. Indy,

I am happy that you don't need anymore convincing from any of us!  Proceed to do the right thing, no apologies and no justification needed! :smthumbup:


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I'm sitting at the attorney's office getting paperwork drawn up to sign...they are now on retainer.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Indy, if she has strong BPD traits as you suspect, all hell is going to break lose when she realizes you have actually filed for divorce. As I said before, the most dangerous period with a BPDer is when she finds out you are leaving her, because she has such a strong fear of abandonment. You therefore should expect to see a level of vindictiveness and meanness that you never imagined she is capable of.

As to your generous idea of providing her with a laptop and 6 months of subsidy, I agree with the other respondents advising you to wait and follow your attorney's advice. If she is a BPDer, giving her anything prior to the negotiation process will NOT buy you any lasting good will or appreciation. Because BPDers are so reactive to their current mood, and because they generally feel entitled to whatever sacrifices you make, it is always "What have you done for me lately?"


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I was so shaken at the attorney's office, I couldn't even fill out any forms, my hands were shaking so bad. I got great advice in regards to how to handle the various issues that will come up.
Once we are divorced, she will no longer have insurance and Cobra is too damned expensive to maintain. I was advised to prolong the divorce proceedings if I want to seek treatment for her, so we can use my company's insurance instead of paying outrageous rates otherwise.
I'm actually fine with that, so long as we remain separated. 
Since there won't be anything to dispute, the process won't have any red tape to slow it down, so I could be single within 6 months. (Hidden smiley face)
The attorney mentioned something about how much I must care about my wife. 
I know I need some therapy now...I especially want to before I attempt dating, because I want to have and maintain normal expectations out of a relationship and not base it around one that has been with someone with BPD.

As I was leaving work to get paperwork drawn up, I stopped by the front office and spoke with our receptionist for a few minutes and sort of broke down in front of her. She comforted me and actually offered up her and her husband's place for an extended stay. They have two spare bedrooms she said I was welcome to. I am so thankful to be among good people with the same heart I have. That makes me feel really good. 
I am now at the house, waiting for my wife to return from her Pilates class. We arranged to have dinner and just hang out a while.
I hope I can get through this without my true feelings coming out. I really don't like being deceptive, but if it is for my our safety and protection, it's what I'm going to do.
I haven't changed my wife's title over to STBXW, because the actual filing has not been done. They have all of the documentation prepared, they are just waiting on me to say go. So now I need to get my exit plan figured out.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Crap...

I started a new checking and savings accounts today and had to get a cashiers check for the retainer.
I transferred $2500 from our joint savings over to my new checking and savings. I put $500 in the new savings and $1000 in checking. The remainder $1000 went to the cashiers check. The only problem was when they did the transfer, they made they cashiers check come from our joint account and not my new one.
I was trying to hide this check, that's one of the purposes of creating the account.
What do I do? How can I explain that when she looks at the account? I know, I could tell her I went ahead and bought that rife I had my eye on for some time. That's the only thing I think she would believe...she certainly isn't going to have access to see if I bought one or not, so that should work, right?

I got more to explain than that...the $500 and the $1000 also showed up as separate withdraws from joint savings...


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I feel like my avatar...


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Don't lie Indy.

Sh!t just got real. This is where you find out what you're made of.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Move your stuff now. Anything important get somewhere safe, like your friend's house. Get a month worth of clothes.

How would this withdrawal NOT show up? Of course it was going to show up. You are scared about the retainer check, but do you think she didn't understand that you suddenly pulling almost three grand wasn't an exit move?

PACK NOW! Don't wait! Back up your computer files and copy tax returns, pay slips, and all credit card information.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I have little of those to worry about, but I am the one earning the money, so I feel I have better control, now that I've thought about it.

Our counselor has us in a cool down period, where we aren't being sexual. I can simply tell her I took the measures that were advised to me to protect myself. I didn't necessarily think I had to, but did so upon advice and since I am weakend I am going to listen to the advice I get. If we remain married, no biggie, I just have another account I can spend on items for myself without feeling guilty for doing so. And the cashiers check only shows the amount, not the receiver. So I can pass off the rifle purchase.
I think I have this under control. She is in semi good spirits. She enjoyed her Pilates class.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Mr. Indy,

y'know... knowing what you've been through, and understanding how incredibly selfish your wife is, it is perfectly OK and acceptable to be a little "selfish" as well, in terms of money, money which you rightly earned yourself, with little to no support from your wife.

"..It's MY money, I EARNED it myself, no thanks to my so-called-wife, and it's MY constitutional rights to HOW I wish to spend MY money!"

Roger that?

If yes, say that word to yourself 100 times daily


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

This evenings time together was a little interesting...

We went to Culver's for dinner. I could hardly eat. I ordered a two piece chicken tender meal with fries and could only eat one and a half chickens and only two fries.
She was speaking about her dad and was saying different stuff and then looked me in the eyes and said that she doesn't think she's had her full release yet. 
I think she just gave me more reason to stay away from her, although I'm not sure if I interpreted what she said exactly, so she may have meant something completely different. I really don't know. It just sounded frightful to me.
I collected up my ss card and birth certificate.

She has her counseling session a week from tomorrow, I will know when I go in when she calls me tomorrow.

She asked how far of a drive I have from the house to the hotel. I told her about 20-30 mins. She asked which road it was off of and I told her the general off ramp. I am pretty sure I mentioned the name of it the first night. As I was leaving for the evening, I took out the trash through the garage and was going to leave from there. As I was unlocking the door, I remembered I forgot my iPad on the love seat. As I walk back in, I notice she is jotting something down on an envelope. She uses received mailed envelopes to take notes on. I tried not to appear as though I was trying to see, but I think she wrote down the name of the road I told her.

She knows where my friend lives where I'll be staying as well. As long as I am alert and with my wits, I'll be fine. Being a daily handgun carrier, I tend to notice my surroundings just a bit more than before. Seeing as I have a potential threat to deal with...I'll have my situational awareness on high alert.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

She has even agreed that she matches up with the symptoms of BPD. And her suicidal threats have been a constant throughout our marriage and it is mental torment on me and it is abuse.
Have you ever lived with a spouse with BPD?


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Even the trauma she suffered as a child lines up with it...how does a child process the fact because her mother had some mental issues, she was a completely honest person, no matter what.
So my wife asked her mom at the age of 5 why here daddy left and can't come back?
Her mom plainly described what she saw when she walked in on her husband and some boy lover...just as if she were speaking to another adult. 
My wife blocked that out of her head and put him up on a pedestal. He lived only 30 mins away, yet would only visit maybe once a year. He became a millionaire and has given her pretty much squat. He sees her as being too much like her mother. 
She has major abandonment issues with him never really returning or providing an opportunity for her to be in his life. She now hates him and almost called him and totally lost it on him, but of course...caretaker to the rescue, pulls the phone away, just in time.
Hell, she was raging, even then. Now that I realize it. Her rages have been more times than I had originally thought.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Trenton said:


> You play games with her as well. Withhold intimacy because she won't put out as you plan or would like.
> 
> .


How exactly have I withheld intimacy? That's what I've been trying to rekindle from the beginning. 
I was in a nearly sexless marriage and after coming on here, I thought I had a beta problem. So I tried to work on that, it did show some progress, but major resistance from my wife.
I am HD, she is LD. We are just sexually incompatible, yet we've been trying to make it work.
She married me not out of hot love and passion...no, it was because how well her son and I got along. She married me to be a father for her son, because his real dad is a low life drunk and pill snorter. 
She never felt the same love towards me that I had for her.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Trenton said:


> You cannot diagnose your wife based upon the internet or a few posters that have dealt with the disorder and are making a diagnosis on your one sided posts.
> 
> These are your posts that I've read. We're talking just over a month ago and now you're afraid of your wife killing you , she has BPD, and you need to have a hide away and secret divorce?
> 
> ...


You point out exactly my problem...she is hot, then cold...goes along with her mood swings.
First she responds to the map, and I do nothing differently and then she jumps off track and then all of a sudden she takes no interest in me. I am done with the yo-yo relationship. I can't operate off of her good mood cycle as to when my needs get met.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Trenton said:


> Now you're a victim?
> 
> No doubt she needs mental help. Mental help you've never really tried to get her nor seem concerned about getting her now. You were far more worried about how passionate and reciprocal she was in the bedroom. Now, you are becoming untrustworthy and lying to her. It seems now you've found your out and you're taking it with as much maximum drama and self righteousness you can muster.


I'm sorry, you have it all wrong. I don't know what is wrong with your day, but you got this one wrong.
Was I not physically abused? Does that not make me a victim?
Didn't I post earlier that I am willing to extend her treatments, whether I stay with her or not? Where do got the notion I don't care?


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Trenton said:


> I am getting that but you do know that she is facing hormonal adjustments at the same time and I read (and quoted) from you that you would put out even if you were facing these physical challenges. So, you believe she should and consistently?
> 
> The problem is that you're using this BPD and forum support as an excuse to wiggle and lie your way out of this relationship.


Only to be safe about it. Why would I go against sound advise for someone in fear of their safety?



> If you are at a point where you want to move on that is fine and certainly your right but do so with consideration that your wife was your wife for 13 years, she obviously has mental issues and both of you deserve to be happy.
> 
> Where is her son in all of this? He should be about 25 now, right? Can he help? Was her behavior as a parent towards him erratic?


He is 25. He lives in town, but rarely calls, but we do have dinner with him on the weekend ever so often. He and I have an awesome relationship. His mother is a bit jealous because she feels our bond is greater than hers. 
He really has tried to somewhat distance himself from her, as anyone can understand, he has talked to me and saw the abuse growing up...said he never knew how I did it.



> My point is, there is a lot more that goes into a diagnosis than reading a book and relating to it.
> 
> Talk to her therapist and be honest about your fears for your safety. Get help for you and her in this way. If you want a divorce, so be it, but manipulating and lying is not a way to do this.
> 
> If you truly fear for your life. Get a restraining order.


Ha...restraining orders do nothing for your safety until after the fact. It's the same as calling the police....ok, yeah, they'll arrive in 15 minutes, where the blood has already spilled.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I was just reading up on codependency. Sounds like I have a portion of the characteristics. I will certainly peruse therapy. I do feel a certain amount of trauma over all of this.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Trenton said:


> Were you physically abused? Maybe I didn't read it in skimming?



Mrs. Trenton,

To understand the complexity of issues relating to Mr. Indy's relationship with his wife, we need to read each and every posts. Me and some others like Mrs. Anon Pink and Uptown really did read every posts, at least in this thread, and follow their progress nearly every day. Skimming and picking out portions the story won't do, assuming you're just skimming. Not knowing that he was physically abused is a sign that you're just skimming and not reading in depth, btw.

If you have time, read this http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/67022-ld-wife-has-turned-me-off-4.html#post1458399



> I have never been fearful of a woman, until now.
> 
> I wake up shorty after 4 am to my wife scrambling around on the floor on my side of the bed. I ask her what she is doing and she mumbles something about the safe. I immediately jumped out of bed to see what was going on.
> She was in a frantic state, banging on my bedroom safe that I keep a few firearms in.
> ...


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/67022-ld-wife-has-turned-me-off-5.html#post1461094



> I'm taking a road trip this morning to one of our offices up in Michigan this morning. About a 4 hour drive each way.
> I've talked to my wife about it and she said she'd like to go, so I've arrange to pick her up as I head out of town.
> This will give us a little bit of time to talk, but mostly I am going to have the radio on, playing her favorite cd collection I asked her to assemble before I pick her up.
> I don't think she'd try anything stupid while we are on the road...I feel somewhat safe being alert during the day. It is at night she can't be trusted.
> ...


Granted, we only hear his side of the story. He might be completely lying, or he might be right. It is not directly affecting us, so I give advice only according to what I read from his side of the story. Given the limitations of Internet forums like this, it's the only thing we can do.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Trenton said:


> My day was OK. I was on my phone and clicked on today's posts and happened to read all of yours. It confused me, honestly.
> 
> You said you were going to wait on filing to save you money so that you didn't have to pay for Cobra as it was more expensive, correct? I don't know your financials but I'm thinking you'd probably have to pay the Cobra as part of the divorce settlement regardless and quite frankly, I'd delete your post as the words here can be used against you by your wife's attorney. I'd have a field day with it when coupled with past, recent posts by you about your wife.


She won't get an attorney, she will be agreeable with my terms...I know this about her. In Indiana, there is no alimony in a case like mine. We have no debts. I am considering setting her up with maybe a years worth of alimony, just to get her kick started with her single life. I am going to see it through that she gets the treatment she needs. I still love my wife and care about her well being. How could someone just ignore and forget someone like this that is in need of help?



> Were you physically abused? Maybe I didn't read it in skimming? You're obviously dealing with emotional abuse because your wife is obviously unstable or at least that's how you are writing it here. We don't have her side at all and you are making very serious accusations. This is why you should get a restraining order and report any abuse so that it's on record.


Yes, this is not the first time she has struck me. The emotional abuse has become a norm if we ever get into arguments. It usually ends up with her acting like a 5 year old, mocking me and my movements with her sarcastic comments, narrating how she sees me.



> Was the physical abuse over the full course of the relationship or something that just started after the hormonal treatments? Same with the emotional abuse, is it longstanding?
> 
> Did she abuse her son either emotionally or physically?
> 
> ...


Yes, the abuse has continued throughout our relationship, just seems to get more intense as the years pass.
Seems like the emotional abuse has been stronger, because it is way more frequent.
As to my knowledge, she has never done anything to jeopardize the safety of her son. He is the only one thing in her life she is proud of. He turned out to be such an awesome young man...my wife does give me credit there...for nurturing him to what he is today.
This one was basically the one that pushed me over the edge of tolerance for putting up with this treatment. Dealing with it for years and years, I guess it finally wore on me to the breaking point, I can't take this lifestyle any longer.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Mrs. Trenton,
> 
> To understand the complexity of issues relating to Mr. Indy's relationship with his wife, we need to read each and every posts. Me and some others like Mrs. Anon Pink and Uptown really did read every posts, at least in this thread, and follow their progress nearly every day. Skimming and picking out portions the story won't do, assuming you're just skimming. Not knowing that he was physically abused is a sign that you're just skimming and not reading in depth, btw.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that...

I just don't see the benefit of telling a one sided story in a two sided relationship. If I were to take advice based off of a one sided story, yeah...I think I'd be getting bad advice.

I am not one to paint my wife as an evil witch...I love her and want what is best for both of us. I have as honestly and objectively documented life as I see it without attempting to add my bias.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Trenton said:


> Were you physically abused? Maybe I didn't read it in skimming? You're obviously dealing with emotional abuse because your wife is obviously unstable or at least that's how you are writing it here. We don't have her side at all and you are making very serious accusations. This is why you should get a restraining order and report any abuse so that it's on record.


It is on record...we went to the emergency counseling session and her counselor made note of her knuckles still being bruised since Sunday morning. The welts on my back had dissipated. The counselor took particular notice to the fact that she was in a rage, but can't seem to recall where her mind was at during that time...at least my wife will not say. 
I am waiting on the counselor to call so I can have a one on one with her. I want to explore the various options with her about seeking treatment for my wife.

Prior to coming to TAM, I didn't necessarily believe my wife had anything other than depression and as far as her childish episodes, I attributed it to her never getting corrected as a child and just has a boundary issue. After reading on here as well as other support pages for BPD, she fits the diagnosis almost to a T. We will know for sure because she will be getting an evaluation done soon.
The rage...I guess I had an experience in a previous relationship in my early twenties where when I broke it off with her, anything I made or gave to her became flying objects, hurling towards me. I guess I kind of passed it off that some people have self control issues and didn't understand the seriousness of what happens when a BPD person views you as Black. I take this rage thing very seriously...it is my life that is at stake here...not something I care to risk or gamble with.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Trenton said:


> Has it gotten most intense as she has begun dealing with hormonal changes? That's what I'm asking.


I can't really say because prior to her taking the hormones, we were having an argument one weekend and she was literally losing control, doing the whole mocking thing she likes to do to belittle me.



> I read the re-posting of the incident with the gun safe and no doubt your wife has major issues and her behavior there is not normal and it is abusive...to herself and towards you.
> 
> The issue I have is that she's obviously dealing with a mental handicap. Not fighting you to stay and allowing the divorce to pass without incident is not normal for a BPD.


She has nothing to fight over...other than loosing me. There are no assets to fight over...I am willingly giving her anything she wants from our possessions minus my power tools and guns. She can literally have all of the furniture, appliances, entertainment with widescreen...everything. She gets to keep the Trans Am. She has nothing to fight for...
She won't get alimony, so what exactly would she be fighting for? Me...that is it. So because of that is why I want to be cautious informing her about the divorce. The attorney suggested perhaps it be done during our group session with the counselor.



> I'm just not buying your story in total. Sorry. Things don't add up and I get a bad vibe from you. I really don't see you as unselfish and a constant caretaker of your horrible wife based upon all of my readings of your posts. I see you as easily influenced, in real need of having your sexual needs met and feeling that they are not met by your wife and feeling major resentment because of this, and not being invested in the relationship unless this need is met. I don't feel it is as one sided as you make it seem and I don't buy that it's in your best interest to be two sided either.


The great thing about the interwebz...you don't have to buy it, because I'm not posting it to sell to you. I am posting here to gain sound advice on which direction I should go.
I'm trying to figure out what benefit someone would get by posting one sided stories while trying to get sound advice from it. How practical is that? You seriously think I am posting on here to stroke my ego or something?

I am in real need of having my sexual needs met. They are not met by my wife. I have learned to deal with my resentment and we recognized there was resentment on both sides. We have been working on these. I have been fully invested in this relationship up to this point...I am now at the point where I have given far more than has ever been returned, and because of her BPD, it will always be this way and that is a manner in which I care to no longer live.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Now you're a victim?.


Trenton, I agree with you that Indy is not a victim, which would imply he is helpless and powerless to correct the situation. Anyone who's been in a toxic relationship for 16 years is not a victim but, rather, part of the problem. Significantly, it takes TWO willing participants to sustain a toxic relationship for 16 years. But Indy is self aware and has already conceded that, due to his codependency traits, he has contributed to the toxicity by being an enabler.


Trenton said:


> You cannot diagnose your wife based upon the internet or *a few posters that have dealt with the disorder and are making a diagnosis* on your one sided posts.


Trenton, I value your input because, with your having been diagnosed as a BPD sufferer yourself, you have extensive, valuable experience to share with us. Moreover, I agree with you that Indy cannot diagnose his W and that, to find out what he is dealing with, he should see a psychologist to obtain a candid professional opinion. Indeed, that is what I recommend to readers at the link I provided Indy above. Toward that end, Indy is already seeing a therapist and is setting up a private session with that therapist.

I nonetheless object to your claim that we are trying to diagnose his W. Importantly, NONE of us who are trying to help Indy in this thread have claimed to "make a diagnosis," as you say. If you find a sentence making such a bold claim, please quote it instead of making an unsupported, personal attack against the rest of us. As I said in the linked post, there is a world of difference between spotting the red flags (i.e., warning signs) for BPD and making a diagnosis.


Trenton said:


> Uptown -- you are in a default BPD setting based upon your own experience. I bet you see BPD in the subject line and auto read it....[your 9/15/12 post].


This is an earlier example of your making a personal attack against me without quoting a single sentence of mine to support it. Amazingly, although you're quick to attack us on this thread for "making a diagnosis on [Indy's] one sided posts," you've never hesitated to do that yourself:


"He sounds borderline to me" [your 9/8/10 post].
"No doubt she needs mental help" [post #128 above].
"Your wife is obviously unstable" [post #131 above].
"You need to get over your obvious Borderline type behavior" [2/05/13 post].
"He's clearly not a narcissist" [9/15/12].
"Move past this sociopath...." [11/8/11].
"I do think she is a sociopath" [7/7/11].
"BUT if he doesn't feel empathy regularly then he is a psychopath/sociopath/narcissist" [11/2/10].


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I will bold what I am self aware of...

What do Codependents try to do? Controls others or situations. 
Do they really think they can control others? Yes. 
Can anyone ever control others? No 
Do they cross our boundaries? Yes
Do they mind their own business? No
Do they manipulate? Yes
*Do they know what is best for you? Yes*
*What do they say when we get angry with them for crossing our boundaries?
I was only trying to help.*
What are some reasons they do this?
To avoid their own issues. To get their mind off of themselves.
What does Al-Anon and CoDa tell them to do?
Butt out! Mind their own business. Get the focus off of them and back on their selves.
What do codependents do when they can't control you? Get angry.

Characteristics of Codependency
**********************************************
1. My good feelings about who I am stem from being liked by you 
2. My good feelings about who I am stem from receiving approval from you 
*3. Your struggle affects my serenity. My mental attention focuses on solving your problems/relieving your pain *
*4. My mental attention is focused on you* 
*5. My mental attention is focused on protecting you *
*6. My mental attention is focused on manipulating you to do it my way * Somewhat!
*7. My self-esteem is bolstered by solving your problems * Strong!
8. My self-esteem is bolstered by relieving your pain 
*9. My own hobbies/interests are put to one side. My time is spent sharing your hobbies/interests * Becoming Stronger every day
10. Your clothing and personal appearance are dictated by my desires and I feel you are a reflection of me 
11. Your behavior is dictated by my desires and I feel you are a reflection of me 
12. I am not aware of how you feel. I am aware of how you feel 
13. I am not aware of what I want - I ask what you want. I am not aware - I assume 
*14. The dreams I have for my future are linked to you *
*15. My fear of rejection determines what I say or do *
*16. My fear of your anger determines what I say or do * Most definitely
17. I use giving as a way of feeling safe in our relationship 
*18. My social circle diminishes as I involve myself with you *
19. I put my values aside in order to connect with you 
*20. I value your opinion and way of doing things more than my own 
21. The quality of my life is in relation to the quality of yours*


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I'm in tears at the moment...

Reading up on codependency, I truly need help!

This is the kicker...right here:


> There is a hidden motive in the actions of those that are codependent. One so sneaky that the person themselves are usually unaware of it. Like many aspects of BPD, it’s a motivation of selfishness. When someone is lost in a world of codependence, sacrificing every waking moment to ensure the happiness of those around them, the real underlying, subconscious motivation isn’t because they altruistically want the world to be happy. No, it’s because they want to be loved and appreciated. Everything they do stems from the motivation of wanting to receive: receive love, receive validation, receive self-worth, receive, receive, receive.


Throughout the years of living with my wife and feeling the eventual decline in our love life, I must have built this up from seeing how she responded to other areas in our relationship that were not sexual in nature, so I figured it would surly work there as well. If it wasn't working, I wasn't doing it good enough and must try harder. If I am persistent enough, it will surly show results, right?



> The ironic thing is that because someone who is codependent is so absorbed in being accepted by another, they are actually incapable of being accepted by another because they aren’t providing anything real for another person to accept. They’re giving and giving and giving, but they’re giving things that they think another person wants, not things that they actually are.
> 
> How can you feel secure in the love of another human being when ultimately you can’t believe that they love you for who you are… Because all you’ve shown them is what you can do for them and not who you can be with them? It’s an innate contradiction that someone who is codependent may never see. They give things, they give actions, they give relief of responsibility, but what they aren’t giving is the one thing they really need to give in order to form a true bond… themselves. But since their own identity is based on the perception of the person they’re trying to please it becomes a self-fulfilling cycle of sadness, self-doubt, and resentment.
> 
> Also ironically, is that the actions of a codependent often contribute to their partner being selfish and self-serving instead of appreciative and nurturing, which is what they want. When everything you do is focused on another person, naturally their focus is going to turn more and more towards themselves as well. *The codependent may subconsciously condition their partner to also believe that everything that is done should be done for them, which contributes to their partner ignoring the needs of the codependent, and makes the codependent redouble their efforts to gain attention and favor, leading to the partner becoming more self-involved….* Can you see where this is going? It doesn’t help cultivate a healthy relationship at all. All it does is cultivate an environment where nothing is ever enough and the codependent person will continue to lose themselves to a cycle that they can never find the security they need.


The above hits me really hard...as in realizing this is me.

And at first glance, I had no issues other than being a bit beta...oh look where I am now. 

here is the link from where I referenced the above quotes...

http://www.downwardspiralintothevortex.com/2012/03/codependency-and-borderline-personality.html


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

IndyTMI said:


> I'm in tears at the moment...Reading up on codependency, I truly need help!.... And at first glance, I had no issues other than being a bit beta...oh look where I am now.


Whoa, Indy! Please slow down, take a deep breath, and stop beating up on yourself. As an initial matter, that article about "Codependency" -- actually, a blog written by a young lady engineer who has BPD -- is about the codependency typically seen in BPDers. I encourage you to disregard most of what you will find about "codependency" online. 

With the term "codependency," it is important to always define up front exactly what you mean about it. Because it is not considered a mental disorder, it is not defined in the diagnostic manual DSM-IV. Nor are there any plans to do so in the DSM-5 scheduled for release this May. As long as most religions in the world continue to regard selflessness and self-sacrifice as the keys to heaven -- and most nations continue to rely on their young peoples' willingness to sacrifice themselves for national security, there is little chance of a definition forthcoming any time soon.

Likewise, if you go to the website of CoDA (largest association of "codependents" in the world), you will find much discussion but absolutely no definition. Instead, CoDA offers a list of more than fifty "patterns and characteristics" -- more traits than the DSM-IV lists for all ten personality disorders COMBINED. Clearly, CoDA is essentially a political organization that, in order to appease the many thousands of separate member groups all over the world, has obediently included all views and suggestions. 

Absent a definition in the DSM, "codependency" is whatever you choose to say it is. I like Kathy Batesel's definition at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...508-wrong-label-codependency.html#post1087428. According to Kathy, "People who continually and repetitively engage in unhealthy dynamics when they could choose not to are codependent." Of course, that broad definition applies to the codependency seen in BPDers and narcissists as well as to the "caregivers" like you and me.

Because I usually target my posts to the caregivers and fixers -- i.e., the white-knight "saviors" who often find themselves mired in toxic relationships with BPDers -- I normally use a narrower definition of codependency than Kathy uses. I usually define it simply as "excessive caregiving," which largely tracks therapist Shari Schreiber's use of the term. I therefore suggest you read Schreiber's explanation of codependency at DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?. Please be patient, because the last half of her article is even better than the first. I also like the book, _Codependent No More._

What I find offensive are the many definitions of codependency that emphasize the need to control loved ones, often to the point of deliberately (or subconsciously) keeping them sick so the "codependent" continues to feel needed. I find that definition offensive because my experience with "codependents" -- including you and myself -- is that we make every effort to obtain professional help and guidance for our loved ones.

Our problem, as Schreiber explains, is that our desire to be _needed_ (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be _loved_ (for the men we already are). The problem is not that we want to help people but, rather, that we are willing to keep doing it when it is to our great detriment to do so. 

Another result is that, when we are out looking for a mate, we are drawn to the wounded birds and we ignore all the men running in the other direction. We also ignore the fact that BPD is a type of wound we cannot fix. We therefore will keep walking right past all the emotionally available women (BORING). We will keep walking until we find a woman who desperately needs us, making us feel like knights who have ridden in on white horses. 

Part of our problem is our low self esteem, which we build up by finding someone who sorely needs us. Another part is our mistaking being needed for being loved. And a third problem is the way we intellectualize and analyze everything to death. Although this works to our great advantage most of the time, it can be a serious liability when we put ourselves in a dangerous situation trying to fix the unfixable and trying to make an unhappy woman happy. 

The men who are more emotionally healthy than us do not do that. They don't tease every action and statement apart when the verbal abuse starts. Instead, they feel angered and offended and disrespected -- and they walk out. In sharp contrast, you and I will hang on for years ignoring our hurt feelings and loss of dignity. We do that because we are so focused on analyzing the relationship in minute detail, looking for any possible way to help our sick loved one. We think, "if I had only done this" and "maybe, if I only tried doing that."

Another view I find offensive is the misguided notion that we "excessive caregivers" are weak. Typically, a divorced caregiver will be found working a 40 hour job and going home at night to care for 3 kids and 5 dogs -- and still finding time, on the weekends, to go out looking for a mate to take care of too. I mention all this, Indy, because -- until you learn to how to build stronger personal boundaries and start taking care of YOURSELF -- you are at risk of leaving your W only to run right into the arms of another woman just like her.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

T,
You don't come across as BPD at all, and I have some close personal experience dealing with BPD folks and am well versed in the checklists and DSM stuff. 

You clearly have positive stuff bpd folks lack, and you don't have most of the bad stuff they are saddled with. And that is based on lots of observation, including when we were butting heads fairly hard. 

You would make a great neighbor and are the type person I would let watch my kids. 






Trenton said:


> You are placing ideas in his head and then you are backing them up. He has since become convinced his wife is BPD based upon your suggestion and Anon's. You planted a seed with very iffy information and you are very focused on BPD as I've read you post in a lot of places about it.
> 
> Yes, it's true I was diagnosed with BPD when I was 17. I was also sexually abused by my father at 14 and a very, very confused young lady. Longer story than that and one I won't get into here but let's just say...it's complicated and my experience with the mental health industry at 17 had a tremendous, long lasting impact. Possibly because it's not science at all but rather guesswork.
> 
> ...


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Uptown, thank you so much for your post.

You completely understand me and how I feel towards my wife.

I told my wife tonight how I revolved my life around her. How I always sacrificed everything to be with her. Over the course of our marriage, all of my hobbies ceased to exist. No more softball, no more dirt biking...spend more time with her, but never an increase in frequency. 
It is my goal...my objective to make her happy. I know I can make her happy sometimes. I point out to her when I make her laugh. I love to see her smile. The cheery look she has, the glimmer in her eyes. She's so beautiful in those moments, but they are few and far between, as her depression usually takes over and ruins the party.

She did come to realize how selfish she was from her complaining I was taking too long. It has been pointed out that during all of those years where her desire was low and to took forever to arouse, I never complained one second. I even build up the ability to extend myself until she did reach orgasm. Now I have been used to the extended sex and it is all completely enjoyable, so why wouldn't I want it to last as long as possible? Now she can orgasm in 5 minutes and I'd like at least 15-20 minutes...hell.

After we talked for a bit she went upstairs for a bit to do laundry, then came back down and seemed to act differently. She seemed a bit standoffish. She said she wanted to walk, so I said I would leave early then so she could get started. She gave me some clean laundry and then went about putting a cd in the stereo. She knew I was leaving, yet seemed to be ignoring me at the same time. I said I was going then, she got the music started and turned to me and said, "well, by then" And turned to go to the treadmill. I left.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Trenton said:


> Haha just read all my quoted posts upon re-read (sorry, busy over here but wanted to respond and didn't read all the way through...but do promise I read all the way through Indy's thread and backwards to try to understand if what I was reading here was understandable or if I was just misunderstanding).
> 
> Let me say that in the advice you quoted, I hope that if someone was doing things like talking about divorcing their wife/husband, moving out and convinced his/her life was at risk that I would have had the sense to write that they should seek immediate help and guidance.
> 
> ...


We are both seeking help. We both realize we have things we need to work out individually and as a couple.
We both have appointments setup with the counselor.
My wife really isn't in an immediate threat to herself, at least from my knowing her for nearly 18 years. She would only do that for attention if I am around. I am more fearful of my own safety, that's why I am staying elsewhere, so I won't wake choking on my own blood. 

Getting her help and us staying together are separate issues at this point. Right now, I am separated from my wife and plan to be for the rest of my life. I have no intentions of repairing any marriage we may have once had. I am past that time now. I have tried, time and time again. Right now my focus is on getting her help more so than us getting divorced.

So I will get her the help she needs while I am living separately. Once she gets on her feet, I will complete the divorce proceedings and continue to support her, both financially as well as being a good friend...we are best friends.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> Once she gets on her feet, I will complete the divorce proceedings and continue to support her, both financially as well as being a good friend...we are best friends.


Mr. Indy,

This sounds like a good plan. I wish you good luck.

Although, it would help if you also take into account about how the impact of a divorce will affect her counselling. There are very real possibility that whatever progresses she have made, could be shattered by the divorce.

If I were you, I'd rather tell her straight up that you want a divorce ASAP, but you would still care for her because, you are best FRIENDS. You two are NOT made to become Husband and Wife, but you two are best FRIENDS (your word). Yes, probably she would be devastated. 

But it's better to be devastated now THEN get serious counselling, rather than get serious counselling now and then divorce... with the risk of destroying any progresses made..

On the other hand, perhaps the devastation of the divorce would forever eliminate the chances of her going for counselling, if she couldn't take the devastation.

Some kind of agreement should be made here. The two of you should come into an understanding that her counselling is for HERSELF, not necessarily for your marriage. She should be made clear that divorce is a very real possibility, and thus she better take the counselling seriously, for her own good, marriage or no marriage. So, if you actually divorced her, hopefully she would continue the counselling, for her own sake.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

After she had thrown her hands in the air and said she couldn't take it anymore, she is not at my level...we are done... And thrown her tantrum, she said, "you're going to leave, me aren't you?"

I couldn't respond.

I think especially from tonight's reactions, she is in the understanding we may not be together in the future.

Until I see her searching for jobs online, she will be in denial. That is one of the indicators I am using to base her mood from is what she searches for online each day.

I can remotely login and view the desktop while it is transparent at the host machine. It is my PC she uses to surf and stuff.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> After she had thrown her hands in the air and said she couldn't take it anymore, she is not at my level...we are done... And thrown her tantrum, she said, "you're going to leave, me aren't you?"
> 
> I couldn't respond.
> 
> I think especially from tonight's reactions, she is in the understanding we may not be together in the future.


No Mr. Indy, that is not enough. If you couldn't respond when she asked that. That could be misconstrued as weakness or doubt. 

You should have said something like "Yes, actually I am very seriously considering that, and that sounds like what is best for us. We are best friends, but not best spouses for each others". 

Yes, there are possibilities that she will very extremely angry upon hearing that, but at least you are ready (run forrest run!  ), and it will give her a clear message that her marriage is over. Now it's up to her whether she would remain your best friend or not.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> No Mr. Indy, that is not enough. If you couldn't respond when she asked that. That could be misconstrued as weakness or doubt.
> 
> You should have said something like "Yes, actually I am very seriously considering that, and that sounds like what is best for us. We are best friends, but not best spouses for each others".
> 
> Yes, there are possibilities that she will very extremely angry upon hearing that, but at least you are ready (run forrest run!  ), and it will give her a clear message that her marriage is over. Now it's up to her whether she would remain your best friend or not.


What I had described was what occurred over the last weekend. Today she seemed to be in more of an accepting state of us not being together. Hopefully the counselor will agree that I can inform her in a group session and already have moving arrangements made in advance.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Ultimately, she will get the help she needs if she if willing to accept it and I will be free to find a loving woman that can appreciate a man like me.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> What I had described was what occurred over the last weekend. Today she seemed to be in more of an accepting state of us not being together. Hopefully the counselor will agree that I can inform her in a group session and already have moving arrangements made in advance.





IndyTMI said:


> Ultimately, she will get the help she needs if she if willing to accept it and I will be free to find a loving woman that can appreciate a man like me.


Yes Mr. Indy, that's the spirit. Good luck!:smthumbup:


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

When chatting with my wife last night, she said she thought about what the counselor asked her about her rage moments...what was going through her mind? Where was she?

She said that it is difficult to describe, but the closest thing she can associate it with is where your mind is in the seconds of climax. She said, your mind isn't in the body at that moment...it temporary escapes into this other place.

I'm not sure what that means but hopefully the counselor can help her.

She said she stayed in bed yesterday and just sat up for a good 7 or 8 hours, thinking about any and everything that just happened to wonder in. She said she didn't feel depressed. It was more of just a calming session where she totally felt relaxed and meditated.
She said that it has helped relieve the stress she was feeling.

Starting Sunday, I stay out at my friends house for the next couple of weeks. It is a further drive and in opposite direction from work. She said she knew I probably wouldn't be coming over after work every night to have dinner and hangout. She seemed a little bummed about it, but also at the same time to be accepting of it.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Mr. Indy,

I did not specialize on Clinical Psychology back then.

But I suspect that your wife's Out of Body experience during her rages (as she described), is just another attempt of trying to not take responsibility for her behavior, past and present.

If she is genuinely sorry, she should take responsibility of all that happened and make amends.

Saying sorry without make amends for past wrongdoing is an incredible insult to the word "sorry".


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Trenton said:


> I was diagnosed with BPD when I was 17.... I have never been suicidal, don't get physical, am a very nurturing and loving mother who absolutely adores her children, and have been in the same relationship for 19 years.


Trenton, the vast majority of BPDers I've met (i.e., those having strong traits) are high functioning like you. They get along fine with business associates, casual friends, and total strangers (because none of those folks pose a threat to their two fears: abandonment and engulfment). They are not suicidal (but may threaten suicide as a way of controlling the loved one. 

And they generally are nurturing and loving to their children because the kids are so dependent on them that, again, no threat is posed to the two fears. Their difficulty with handling the children usually doesn't begin until the kids reach puberty and start becoming rebellious and wanting to do things their own way. 

What is UNUSUAL about you, then, is the 19-year length of your relationship. My experience is that, if the partner doesn't walk out on the HF BPDer within two years, he almost certainly has strong codependency traits. This means he typically will hold on, trying to "fix" his BPDer mate, until the BPDer abandons him at about 12 to 15 years.

What is so REMARKABLE about you, however, is none of those things. Moreover, it is not your having had strong BPD traits. After all, BPDers are quite common, with 6% of the population having full-blown BPD and perhaps another 2 or 3% having strong traits that fall short of the diagnostic threshold. If so, BPD is at least as common as left-handedness (i.e., 1 out of 12).

Rather, what is so remarkable about you is your amazing level of self awareness, which has allowed you to see your own BPD traits. That ability is so rare that, although I've communicated with nearly a hundred "self awares" on several forums over the past six years, I've never knowingly met one in my private life.

Significantly, if you go to websites like BPDrecovery.com, you will find the common complaint that most of the forum members -- all of whom are self aware BPDers -- like to whine and complain at length about their disorder but are loath to stay in therapy long enough to do anything about it. To be able to learn how to manage the BPD traits, being self aware is necessary but NOT sufficient. Also required is for the self aware BPDer to have sufficient ego strength that she can tolerate the difficult therapy process.

People like that -- who have both the self awareness and the necessary ego strength -- are extraordinarily rare. This, then, is what is so extraordinarily remarkable about you Trenton. I would be surprised if as many as 1 in 100 BPDers are able to achieve what you've already accomplished. Therapist Shari Schreiber places the number even lower. She tells the abused spouses that they have a better chance flying to the moon while strapped to a banana than they ever do of seeing their BPDer spouses stay in therapy long enough to make a difference.

This is why, Trenton, I consider you a rare jewel and such a wonderful resource on this forum. Because of your experiences, you are uniquely positioned to help both BPDers and "Nons" alike. You cannot imagine how much the newbie-Nons enjoy talking to a "BPDer" who is both treated and self aware. After spending 10 to 15 years living with a BPDer spouse who can't see the elephant in the room, it is simply astounding to be able to converse with a BPDer who not only was able to see the elephant but also had the ego strength to stop feeding it.


Trenton said:


> You are placing ideas in [Indy's] head and then you are backing them up. He has since become convinced his wife is BPD based upon your suggestion and Anon's.


No, I cannot take credit for that. Indy had concluded she likely had BPD and bipolar traits before I ever joined this thread. In post #27, he wrote:_"Reading a couple of other threads about Bipolar and BPD, I think my wife fits these somewhat and want to verify exactly what is going on with her."_ ​In the next post (#28), my very first sentence says:_"Indy, if BPD is involved, your best chance of obtaining a candid professional evaluation is to see your own psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself. Meanwhile, while you're waiting for an appointment, you may want to read more about the traits so you can spot the red flags for both of those disorders."_​


Trenton said:


> You planted a seed with very iffy information.


As to my "planting a seed," I sure hope so. If it turns out that Indy's W does have strong BPD traits, he is at great risk of leaving her only to run into the arms of another woman just like her. Any man that has been living for 16 years in a toxic relationship with a BPDer almost certainly has strong codependent traits -- just like I do. 

Until we learn how to spot the red flags for BPD -- and learn how to be alert to our codependent traits -- we will go out searching for another woman who desperately needs us. BPDers, of course, are masters at projecting vulnerability and neediness. The problem, then, is not that the BPDers come looking for us. Rather, we go hunting for them. This is why Indy and I can so easily spot an emotionally vulnerable woman across a crowded room. We have difficulty distinguishing between "being loved" and "being needed."

As to your claim that I provide "very iffy information," that likely is true too. Any TAM member writing 1,400 posts (like me) or 4,000 posts (like you) is going to make mistakes. I therefore ask that, if you find one of my statements to be incorrect, you please quote it and then explain why it is wrong. You will be doing me a favor because, in that way, I will be able to learn from my mistakes.


Trenton said:


> I am completely against swaying such an obviously easily influenced and vulnerable man....


My view is that you greatly underestimate Indy. At issue is whether he is sufficiently intelligent to spot strong BPD traits when they occur even though he is incapable of diagnosing his W's issues. I believe he is if he takes time to learn what traits are on the BPD list. After all, there are only nine of them.

Before Indy graduated high school, he already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD. Indy could identify all the class drama queens -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD. He could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And he could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. 

Similarly, Indy will be able to spot strong BPD traits when they occur. Indeed, after living with a woman for 16 years, he would have to be deaf, dumb, blind, and stupid to not be able to spot strong occurrences of BPD traits. There is nothing subtle or nuanced about traits such as verbal abuse, irrational jealousy, temper tantrums, and always being "The Victim."

The reason that it is so easy for Indy -- and every other TAM member -- to spot these traits is that we all know them so well. During childhood, we all exhibited BPD traits 24/7. And, during our teen years, most of us continued behaving like BPDers. That's why psychologists usually refuse to diagnose BPD before a client has reached 18. 

Moreover, throughout our adult lives, everybody occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD traits, albeit at a low level if the person is emotionally healthy. That is to say, we ALL are BPDers to some degree, i.e., we have all the traits to some extent. This is why BPD is said to be a "spectrum disorder."

This means that BPD is not something that one "has" or "does not have." Rather, the BPD traits -- like body temperature and body height -- are characteristics that everyone has to some degree. It therefore was absurd for the APA to create a dichotomous diagnostic procedure in 1980 (starting with the DSM-III). Of course, most of the psychologists knew even then that a graduated approach -- not a binary approach (i.e., yes or no) -- was warranted. But they adopted the wrong procedure because the insurance companies and courts were demanding that a bright line be drawn. 

Eventually, however, the psychiatric community realized that the insurance companies had betrayed them because, despite the compromise, the companies still refused to cover BPD (and other PD) treatments. Unfortunately, this sad state of affairs has greatly confused the public, leading them to mistakenly believe that BPD traits are some gawd-awful exotic symptoms that only professionals can recognize. What is actually EASY, then, is spotting strong occurrences of the BPD traits, such as verbal abuse and temper tantrums. 

What is DIFFICULT is making a diagnosis, i.e., determining whether the traits are so severe and persistent as to satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria. Only professionals can do that. And, importantly, that diagnostic procedure is radically changing this May with the release of the new Diagnostic Manual (DSM-5). It completely guts the old dichotomous approach that's been used for over 30 years. It is being replaced with the graduated approach that should have been adopted in 1980.


Trenton said:


> Uptown, see how you sway him away from believing he's co-dependent....


No, I told Indy the exact opposite in posts #85, #140, and #143. In #140, for example, I wrote:_Anyone who's been in a toxic relationship for 16 years is not a victim but, rather, part of the problem. Significantly, it takes TWO willing participants to sustain a toxic relationship for 16 years. But Indy is self aware and has already conceded that, due to his codependency traits, he has contributed to the toxicity by being an enabler._​


Trenton said:


> The only reasonable and compassionate thing to do in this situation for Indy is to tell him that you can't diagnose yourself or your spouse online and immediate, intensive mental help is required for both for them to recover from the situation they're in regardless of whether they divorce or not.


I and several other posters have done both of those things. Yet, as I tried to explain above, I believe we should not stop there. Whenever anyone has been in a toxic relationship for many years with an abusive unstable partner, the abused partner should be told where they can find information describing the nine BPD traits -- so they are able to spot any and all traits that may be present.

Importantly, this information is NOT dangerous. It will not burn your house down. On the contrary, it is information about basic human traits that we all need to know. This is why hundreds of the leading hospitals and health centers have been providing this information to the lay public for many years on their Internet sites. They know that, when laymen know what symptoms constitute red flags for a disorder, those laymen are far more likely to seek professional help -- and will be far quicker in doing so.

This is why NIMH (the National Institute of Mental Health) provides a description of BPD traits to the lay public (i.e., people like Indy and me) at NIMH · Borderline Personality Disorder.

This is why the Mayo Clinic educates the public about BPD traits at Borderline personality disorder: Symptoms - MayoClinic.com.

This is why the National Mental Health Association (aka, Mental Health American) explains BPD traits to the public on its website at Mental Health America: Borderline Personality Disorder.

And this is why House Resolution 1005 was unanimously passed by the U.S. House of Representatives in April 2008. This resolution recognizes the month of May as Borderline Personality Disorder Awareness Month. The text says it is meant _"as a means of educating our nation about this disorder, the needs of those suffering from it, and its consequences."_


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I am most certainly aware of my codependency. I understand I am an enabler in this unhealthy relationship.

My wife and I ate at Red Robin tonight and discussed BPD a bit and she agrees that we both need to get help. She didn't understand to the extent of how affected I was. She can see how my actions in the past were not healthy. But now that she has looked at things from a different perspective, she saw how we fed off of each other in the vicious cycle of codependence. 

She said that when I first started to pursue her, she was afraid to give even a little, as she wanted to protect herself. She said she opened up and gave me just a little and that seemed like it was enough to satisfy my needs. She admitted to measuring out how much affection she let go of to keep me around. It never was enough, so I kept pursuing her even more. It was a challenge I was determined to win. I had to just work at it a little harder to prove to her I was not like other men. I am not a beer drinking, sports watching kind of man. I don't follow any type of sports activity. What I did have, I gave up to be with my wife.

Now I see the errors in my ways. I so desparately want to get professional help and get this monkey off of my back. I want to pursue a healthy relationship and want to make sure I am in the right frame of mind going back into the dating scene.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> I am most certainly aware of my codependency. I understand I am an enabler in this unhealthy relationship.
> 
> My wife and I ate at Red Robin tonight and discussed BPD a bit and she agrees that we both need to get help. She didn't understand to the extent of how affected I was. She can see how my actions in the past were not healthy. But now that she has looked at things from a different perspective, she saw how we fed off of each other in the vicious cycle of codependence.
> 
> ...


Mr. Indy,

It is good to reframe your mind. It is wonderful to wish to pursue a healthy relationship.

But I must also hasten to add that, had you pursued a normal woman in the first place, all of your pain and suffering would've never happened.

Your wife was/is abnormal.

Were you pursued a normal woman, I am sure at least 30% of all normal women would love to have a nice man like you, and would give none of those dangerous amok and temper tantrums and withholding sex and all those unpleasantries.

So, while fixing yourself to become even better men, you must also improve your skills to CHOOSE the BEST WOMAN for you. Don't settle for damaged goods. CHOOSE THE BEST FOR YOU. You DESERVE THE BEST.

Agree? Good. Now repeat this 100 times "I DESERVE THE BEST! I MUST CHOOSE THE BEST! I MUST PURSUE THE BEST!"


----------



## Cobre (Feb 24, 2013)

I am afraid that my wife only views me as low drive and selfish and that she builds up resentment against me. Thanks for posting this it is giving me insight on how I can improve and build a more frequent sex life and stop this marriage destroying behavior.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

The wife and I met up with her son today for dinner. We first stopped by his place and I replace his headlight switch that was giving him problems, then we ate at Damon's Grill.
My wife just kept shaking her head at me like she didn't want to tell him, so I started it off by bringing up the last time I met him at the gun range and let him know the two of us were having some issues to work through.

After he found out that I am staying elsewhere, he almost broke down, but held it in and after we talked some more, he seemed to ease up from the apparent stress on his face.
He does not know the details of the problems. I feel as though I need to provide him with a bit more information than he got during dinner.

My wife was talking quite positively today. Her belly dance lesson this morning did her a lot of good. I gave her a few compliments this morning about her mood and how nice her hair looked. I can see a bit of difference just since we've been separated for just a week now. Her level of confidence seems to be greater than I have seen in years. I think she is somewhat enjoying the time she has to herself. 

My wife made an observation during dinner that threw me back a little. Her son is now 25...at the same age I was when I first started to date her. She asked me if I could imagine him with a 35 year old woman that has an 8 year old son.
:scratchhead:
She said she feels like she robbed me of my youthful dating time. I told her that I felt like I was ready to settle down at that time.
Looking back, I wasn't ready to settle down, I just wanted to be with someone. And as Uptown had pointed out about my spotting the weak, I was attracted to her because she was vulnerable. She needed help in her life and I was the one to help answer that call. I could fix her. Make her happy again. After all, I was able to fix all of her problems at work, so I could surly solve her problems in her personal life as well.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Well Mr. Indy, you have "MacGyver" type personality, you like to fix things and help people!


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Well Mr. Indy, you have "MacGyver" type personality, you like to fix things and help people!


I like that, John! It would apply to me too, of course. I would only add that, with BPDers, Indy and I are MacGyvers who have run out of duct tape.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

When I have my counseling session this coming Tuesday, I plan on informing the counselor of my divorce intentions and seek guidance from her about the subject.

After I checked out of my hotel, I stopped by the house and picked her up to take her for some breakfast. We mostly chatted about non realationship topics, but I did bring up one thing I realized about myself prior to our getting together. I was lonely and wanted a mate. Because of my low self esteme, I didn't have the confidence that I needed to just confront a woman to let her know my intentions. I didn't feel as though I'd have much luck going to any form of night club, bar...etc. to find a woman. I never even tried.
No, I had this thinking that I could find one to rescue. My thought was that there are all sorts of beautiful women that live in poor conditions, low income, no vision of escaping that lifestyle. I was in hopes to meet one of these type women, so I could rescue them from being trapped any longer. Yet, I never actually carried out any hunting expeditions to seek them out. It had to happen naturally so I would feel that they truly wanted to be with me.

I wanted to find me a Cinderella!

With the case about my wife, once she showed me a little bit of attention by picking me to accompany her in the canoe during a company outing, I took that as a sign that she liked me and I was drawn towards her further.

Now, I have to work on myself. I don't know how to yet, but between counseling and my continued reading, I can get help.


----------



## Pravius (Dec 12, 2012)

Trenton. It was actually me that originally had suggested BPD to Indy very early in the thread. The reason why that was my initial first thought was because I am living in almost the identical situation to Indy. Granted, different but incredibly similar. My wife is 12 years my senior. I started dating her when she was 34 and I was 22, she also shows incredibly strong BPD traits. 

I do not think that uptown, myself, anon, or anyone was telling him exactly what he needed to do and by all means no one was forcing him. We are simply giving him the tools to do what he needs to do. Uptown, myself, and many others on here are aware of BPD because we have lived in the very dark world. I am currently living it and uptown is free of it, but he knows more than anyone I have ever spoken to about BPD. 

Indy is a grown man, when we give people the information and tools they need, it becomes their responsibility to take the action or not depending on what they want to do. No one can control anyone else, and that is no exception on the internet. We have to assume that Indy is making informed decisions based on his own life experience and his own decisions.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Cobre said:


> I am afraid that my wife only views me as low drive and selfish and that she builds up resentment against me. Thanks for posting this it is giving me insight on how I can improve and build a more frequent sex life and stop this marriage destroying behavior.


Mr. Cobre,

Why not starting a new thread about your problem? There are many good people here whom are experienced and could give good advice, or at least good ideas to help you.

BTW, I am also low drive, so maybe I can give you some insights.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> My wife was talking quite positively today. Her belly dance lesson this morning did her a lot of good. I gave her a few compliments this morning about her mood and how nice her hair looked. I can see a bit of difference just since we've been separated for just a week now. Her level of confidence seems to be greater than I have seen in years. I think she is somewhat enjoying the time she has to herself.


Good, hopefully it will make her life without you more endurable in the future 



> My wife made an observation during dinner that threw me back a little. Her son is now 25...at the same age I was when I first started to date her. She asked me if I could imagine him with a 35 year old woman that has an 8 year old son.
> :scratchhead:
> *She said she feels like she robbed me of my youthful dating time*.


Yes, that is true, and what would she do to make amends for that robbery?


----------



## Pravius (Dec 12, 2012)

IndyTMI said:


> When I have my counseling session this coming Tuesday, I plan on informing the counselor of my divorce intentions and seek guidance from her about the subject.
> 
> After I checked out of my hotel, I stopped by the house and picked her up to take her for some breakfast. We mostly chatted about non realationship topics, but I did bring up one thing I realized about myself prior to our getting together. I was lonely and wanted a mate. Because of my low self esteme, I didn't have the confidence that I needed to just confront a woman to let her know my intentions. I didn't feel as though I'd have much luck going to any form of night club, bar...etc. to find a woman. I never even tried.
> No, I had this thinking that I could find one to rescue. My thought was that there are all sorts of beautiful women that live in poor conditions, low income, no vision of escaping that lifestyle. I was in hopes to meet one of these type women, so I could rescue them from being trapped any longer. Yet, I never actually carried out any hunting expeditions to seek them out. It had to happen naturally so I would feel that they truly wanted to be with me.
> ...


Indy, have you ever watched that episode of Sienfeld where they meet their identical counterparts in the world, Bizzaro Land or whatever they called it... dude I think you are me and I am you. 

I want to share how my wife and I met, tell me, anything sound familiar? 

My wife and I worked at a local trucking company together, in a call center at the time. I was doing rate quotes and she was doing something different but in the same general area of me. We rarely talked at work and really didn't notice each other much. 

Prior to this time I was incredibly heavy, I never really had much of a realtionship because of my weight, I would sometimes get some nookie if we were drunk enough lol, that was about it. I decided one day that I needed to get healthier and wanted to try to move to the next chapter of my life. So I began working out and eating right, I was 22 at the time. 

I lost about 75 lbs and was starting to look good. The upcoming weekend work was having a bowling event at a local bowling alley, prior I would never do something like this but since I was feeling good about myself I went. This day changed my life forever. 

My wife was there, mind you we had never really talked before, but hit it off at this bowling event. I learned that she was married but in a miserable relationship and needed out (oh here is my chance to fixxxx!!!! YESS!!!). 

So we talked that night like crazy, we both were attracted to each other, you could just feel it, but there was no flirting really just good conversation. We went to a bar after the bowling thing, she was not going to go but once she knew I was going to be there, she decided to go. we talked and drank and talked, again no flirting but you could feel it. 

This was the first woman that gave me attention since before I was super heavy. She was a MILF (love me the cougars), I was 22 and she was 34, whoa, and she needed to be helped, I could be her knight in shining armor!!!

Long story short, within 2 days after that event she had called me and asked me if I wanted to spend more time together. I was ecstatic, in heaven, endorphins RAGING! A week later we met at a hotel and had sex, within 2 months she was out of her house and living in our new apartment, I moved out of my parents house to be with her. 

Now, here we are  Indy and Pravius... internet Bizzaro twins!!!


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Trenton said:


> It's nice when anyone calls you a rare jewel as jewels are beautiful and valued for their rarity but I'm afraid it's simply not true.


If you have strong BPD traits, Trenton, it is true that you are a rare jewel -- despite your inability to believe it at this time. You will be able to believe it, however, when the day comes that you are able to trust someone long enough to remain in therapy for well more than a week.


> Uptown, do you think it's possible that the psych community over diagnoses BPD when there is a lack of another diagnosis?


Well, anything is possible. My view as a non-professional, however, is that it has deliberately been UNDER-diagnosed for decades. This is especially evident when you compare the prevalence of BPD diagnoses occurring in a clinical setting (i.e., 1.5 to 2% of the population) with that discovered in the only large-scale study ever done (i.e., 6% of the population). That large-scale study consisted of face-to-face interviews with nearly 35,000 American adults selected at random -- taking four years to complete.

I believe the wide difference between the clinical studies (1.5% to 2%) and the large field study (6%) is explained by the well-known reluctance of psychologists to tell high functioning BPDers the name of their disorder, for reasons I've discussed earlier. Because the vast majority of people having full-blown BPD are high functioning, and because they (and their insurance companies) are not told the true diagnosis, the BPD diagnosis is never recorded on paper. It therefore is not surprising that the field study result is 3 to 4 times larger than the results of the earlier studies, all of which were small studies that examined only the diagnoses occurring in clinical settings. 

That 6% figure also understates the extent of the problem, IMO. Significantly, it is based on the flawed dichotomous diagnostic procedure, wherein only those people with the most extreme symptoms are deemed to "have BPD." Incredibly, this means that anyone meeting 80% or 90% of the diagnostic criteria "does not have BPD" and thus is excluded from the 6% figure. 

This absurd diagnostic procedure -- which the APA is abandoning in its new Diagnostic Manual -- is as senseless as declaring everyone over 6' 6" as "tall" and everyone under that height as "short." Clearly, anyone meeting 80% or 90% of that flawed diagnostic criteria will be nearly as difficult to live with as someone satisfying 100%.

Unfortunately, there are no figures for all the folks having very strong BPD traits that fall somewhat short of the 100% level. I would not be surprised, however, if another 3 or 4% of the adult population would be added to the 6% if you were to include those people.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I decided to write my wife a letter that I was possibly going to read to her during our group counseling session. I am certainly not going to do it now...

It started off describing how things were in the beginning and how I wasn't viewing the relationship for what it really was.

The further I got into describing our situation, the angrier I became and the more finger pointing I did. I haven't even finished the letter and am not sure if I am going to. I re-read the last part and all I can do is cry...I am so pissed and angry at the moment. All I know is that I am not going to let this cycle continue.
I thought that if I can put all of my thoughts on paper, it would be easier to tell my wife exactly how I feel. Perhaps the counselor can help me articulate my message without it sounding so accusing and inflammatory.


I now have 9 days of staying out at my friend's house while he is traveling to California and back. I am house sitting and watching his Rottweiler, Greta.
She is keeping me company. She is super friendly, so it won't make my stay out here so lonely.

Here she is...


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

IndyTMI said:


> The further I got into describing our situation, the angrier I became and the more finger pointing I did....I am so pissed and angry at the moment.


Hold onto that righteous anger, Indy. As I said earlier, it usually is the only thing that allows us excessive caregivers to walk away to safety. What we are inclined to do, given our codependent natures, is to  minimize and ignore our own feelings of anger and humiliation. That is a BIG mistake. Anger is a basic human feeling that, at the right times, is essential to our survival. It motivates and energizes us into taking protective action.

P.S. -- Handsome dog. Like I said, your friend -- and his dog -- are both keepers.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Uptown said:


> I like that, John! It would apply to me too, of course. I would only add that, with BPDers, Indy and I are MacGyvers who have run out of duct tape.


So that's how the series ended. I thought it was because Richard Dean Anderson wanted a raise


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

humanbecoming said:


> Indy,
> 
> I want to thank you for detailing your struggles in this thread. I know that often people post on here, and never know that their struggles and courage to open it up for others to see actually can touch someone else's life. Your thread started me down a path that opened my eyes to some things in my life, and that allowed me to make some realizations about myself, and begin some changes that were much needed in my life, and long over due.
> 
> I can't tell you that your own path will be easy, or even pleasant, in fact, there will probably be much struggle ahead. As you face this, remember that in all you go through, you are not alone, and in lifes darkest hours, there are people out there that appreciate you.


I am really glad that my story about the struggles I've gone through can help others. I find forums like TAM to be such an awesome resource for information and support.

I was seriously hoping my story was going to be a successful one in rekindling the flame. I can bring all of the fuel and fire, but without any oxygen from my wife, It's just not going to light. 

I appreciate TAM so much, I'm going to become a supporter, as well as seek out something in my personal life to help others, whether it be donate my time at a shelter, help mentor children, or something that I can use as an outlet for my empathy.


----------



## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

The letter you wrote, is an example of journaling and it can be extremely therapudic.

You allow your stream of consciousness to burst forth onto paper and many times it reveals the root emotions you are dealing with.

You say you became filled with anger. Anger is not a feeling, it is a reaction.

So let me ask, what was it that you were FEELING as you wrote?


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Saki said:


> The letter you wrote, is an example of journaling and it can be extremely therapudic.
> 
> You allow your stream of consciousness to burst forth onto paper and many times it reveals the root emotions you are dealing with.
> 
> ...


Resentment!


----------



## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Resentment about what?


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Saki said:


> Resentment about what?


How she controlled the relationship from the beginning and never really invested in the relationship as I did.

In bed...for all of those years, she was barely a participant. Spooning was the norm so she didn't have to face me, never offered up passionate kisses, never willing/wanting to touch me.

She only dished out enough to keep me around. I turned to porn and masturbation to make up for what was lacking in the bedroom. I resent her that she withheld from me. I resent her because she wasn't honest with me about her true feelings.
She didn't want to rock the boat of her comfort I was providing. 
I am also very frustrated with myself for not seeing this earlier on.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

What an excellent thread this is turning out to be! I think Trenton's input is has been valuable in helping the focus become more macro oriented. To step back a few paces and look at the whole picture once again, allows the refocusing to be on areas that actually need work.

At this point it is immaterial what the eventual diagnosis is for Mrs. Indy. Her behavior was not something any spouse should allow. The material question is how much, if any, effort or hope should Indy invest in R. Most of us feel Indy needs to put that question on hold until he is in a healthier place. It seems Indy is reaching that conclusion as well, though still moving forward with D. There is always a possibility to reconnect, even after the D. But I don't believe that Indy will get to a healthy place to make that decision, as Uptown points out he's likely to make the same relationship mistakes all over again, until Indy has fully removed himself from crazy town and re-acclimated to healthy town.

Trenton, I assume it has been pointed out to you that a dx at 17 of BPD was highly inappropriate, regardless of how well you matched the criteria at that time. I think they were still using the DSM III? I am in awe of your articulation as you advocate for and on Mrs. Indy's behalf. But I wonder how much, if any, projection you might be experiencing through this thread and that makes me wonder, read worry, that this thread may trigger you?

Indy this caught my attention... 



IndyTMI said:


> "the counselor asked her about her rage moments...what was going through her mind? Where was she?
> 
> She said that it is difficult to describe, but the closest thing she can associate it with is where your mind is in the seconds of climax. She said, your mind isn't in the body at that moment...it temporary escapes into this other place."


Then you went on to write: 



IndyTMI said:


> She said she stayed in bed yesterday and just sat up for a good 7 or 8 hours, thinking about any and everything that just happened to wonder in. She said she didn't feel depressed. It was more of just a calming session where she totally felt relaxed and meditated.
> She said that it has helped relieve the stress she was feeling.


I point these two out because the first is a kind of straight forward common accounting of a disassociative episode. The second account is, taken out of context, another possible disassociative episode. Within context, it is on the scale of reasonable considering the huge amount of psychic pain separation can bring. But given your wife's history of behavior I think this is something her therapist should know about.


----------



## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

IndyTMI said:


> In bed...for all of those years, she was barely a participant. Spooning was the norm so she didn't have to face me, never offered up passionate kisses, never willing/wanting to touch me.


And how does that make you feel?


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Saki said:


> And how does that make you feel?


Unloved. Unimportant. Unrespected. Empty.


----------



## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

IndyTMI said:


> Unloved. Unimportant. Unrespected.


And now you are the bottom of your core issues.

If you solve those, the other crap (resentment, anger, etc) go away.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Saki said:


> And now you are the bottom of your core issues.
> 
> If you solve those, the other crap (resentment, anger, etc) go away.


I've always learned that in order to solve your problems, it is usually best to face them head on.

The only thing I can see to do is to let my wife know during our next group session how she made me feel and that I won't allow her to ever do it again.

I told her last night that I wrote her a letter and it brought out a full menu of emotions, to include that I was pissed with anger.
I told her I felt better after writing it and will discuss it with the counselor tomorrow. She recently wrote a letter to her father, so she knows it is a way to release your feelings in a safe manner, especially if you don't send it.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> What an excellent thread this is turning out to be! I think Trenton's input is has been valuable in helping the focus become more macro oriented. To step back a few paces and look at the whole picture once again, allows the refocusing to be on areas that actually need work.
> 
> At this point it is immaterial what the eventual diagnosis is for Mrs. Indy. Her behavior was not something any spouse should allow. The material question is how much, if any, effort or hope should Indy invest in R. Most of us feel Indy needs to put that question on hold until he is in a healthier place. It seems Indy is reaching that conclusion as well, though still moving forward with D. There is always a possibility to reconnect, even after the D. But I don't believe that Indy will get to a healthy place to make that decision, as Uptown points out he's likely to make the same relationship mistakes all over again, until Indy has fully removed himself from crazy town and re-acclimated to healthy town.
> 
> ...


Very well said!


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Saki said:


> And now you are the bottom of your core issues.
> 
> If you solve those, the other crap (resentment, anger, etc) go away.


Saki's speedy awesomeness strikes again.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Indy this caught my attention...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will most certainly bring this up to the counselor during tomorrow's session.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

JoeHenderson said:


> Very well said!


Thank you Joe!


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> If all you're hearing is backing up what you've started to believe because it's all you've been hearing, you're not likely to look at it any other way and that would be very self limiting to yourself and to those around you.


Good point, Trenton. Like I said earlier, your being a self aware "BPDer" makes you uniquely positioned to help both BPDers and Nons by providing an alternative view.


Trenton said:


> If she is living with mental illness you're sort of in a pickle because you can't blame her for being sick, you can't hold her responsible when it's her mind's instability that is the cause.


I disagree, if I understand you correctly. My view -- and I believe Indy agrees -- is that, if his W is to have any real incentive to confront her issues and learn how to manage them, she must be held fully accountable for her harmful actions. Nearly every parent knows that, if they don't allow a four year old to suffer the logical consequences of her own bad choices and behavior, she will never have an incentive to learn more mature ego defenses, e.g., how to do self soothing. 

Granted, Indy's W is not responsible for the childhood trauma causing her issues to arise. That trauma was forced onto her at a young age if she is a BPDer. She nonetheless must be held accountable for her current behavior. Hence, the importance of learning about BPD traits is that it provides an *explanation* -- not an *excuse* -- for her destructive behavior.

And, granted, a BPDer never chose to acquire the emotional instability in childhood. In adulthood, however, she makes choices every day that have negative consequences, e.g., choosing to reject therapy. IMO, it is important to hold her responsible for those dysfunctional choices by allowing her to suffer the logical consequences. Otherwise, Indy would continue down the path of harming her by being the enabler who allows her to continue behaving like a spoiled child -- and continue getting away with it.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Trenton said:


> Indy I hate to be the one to point this out but it doesn't sound like you're willing to take any of the responsibility for how you've allowed yourself to be treated.


I most certainly take responsibility for my part in contributing to the toxicity of it. I see that we fed off of each other. I realize how weak I was at various points in our relationship. I realize how I minimalized her suicidal thoughts and her abusive behaviour towards me. I see how I taught myself to walk on eggshels around her and not bring up certain topics, as I knew it would get a rise out of her. 



> I wonder if your wife would say she dished out enough to keep you around or if she thinks that it actually was enough.
> 
> I also get from your wife that she doesn't know her true feelings herself.


 She admitted that to me the other day in conversation about where things went wrong and how much manipulation was going on.
Throughout our marriage, whenever anything would cause some serious tension, she would threaten divorce -- about like she does with suicide. It was her way to get me back under control to comply with what she wanted. She was a master at handing out ultimatums. I truly value the sanctity of marriage and was adamant about us staying together as a married couple. I had blinders on, but I can't really say why they were welded on so strong. 



> What I also think is interesting is that you seem most angry about the void of sexual symmetry between the two of you more so than you are about how she has physically come after you and made a mess of herself through childish rages and threats.
> 
> There is a lot that has to be dealt with but strangely I'm not getting the vibe that the mental instability is what actually is shoving you out the door but rather it's the years of feeling that your sexuality has been ignored and your resentment at your wife for not taking care of this need or even recognizing your needs when you feel you took care of her needs.


You nailed it. The severity of her suicidal comments as well as her night rages that were taken out on me were always minimalized. I knew they were not normal, but until this last episode, I had never really felt threatened by my wife. This time was a bit more of a wake up call. Even before she started taking hormone therapy, she would make those comments that pissed me off and I simply couldn't understand how life could be so terrible that you would simply want to end it. My thought is that if life is really that terrible, escape from your existing situation and start off fresh, somehwere new, somewhere that no one knows your history.
One time late last year, she had made suicidal comments and I didn't say anything at the time. I waited until later in the day and when some small challenge presented itself to me, I made a suicidal comment to her. I did it so she could get a glimpse of what my life was like with her. I wanted her to feel pain, knowing that those words are so hurtful. She said it was surreal, hearing me say that. She admitted how ridiculous it must sound to hear it come from her from time to time.

But you are right, mostly. I do seem to be more focused on the dissatisfactions I have endured all these years. I can't take it any more. The suicidal comments and physical abuse were just icing on the cake.


> Ask yourself if you've actually taken care of her needs though and I'm not saying that you haven't. Yes, you were a great father to her child and helped raise a well adjusted 25 year old man. Yes, you worked and provided her with a home and food, etc. but where is she within her mind and heart? Does she feel that her needs are met? Do you even know those needs? Does she?


Yes, we have both read the Five Love Languages, His Needs, Her Needs. We have discussed this in great detail with each other. I was able to identify her needs pretty quickly. When she confirmed what I had thought, it was somewhat a punch to the gut. One of her love languages was for me to be a strong father figure for her son. She said I did an outstanding job helping her raise her son. The other major importance in her life was security. I consider my wife to be a highly productive woman. She has always worked. She was doing an amazing job raising her son all by herself. She was the most accurate typesetter we had at the printshop. She kept her last job for over 12 years before leaving to come work at the business I had started. Once she joined my company, she maintained all of accounting and general office work. Seven and a half years later, my business fails due to a dwindling economy and she decided to take a break from working all those years. I supported her decision. I told her that if we can make due with just my income, she can go ahead and be a stay at home kitty. I often call her kitty, and she use to call me pookie. It has been some time since I have heard that one, now that I think about it.
Anyhow, once we lost the business, her sense of security was shattered, yet she didn't want to work anymore and I mindlessly went along and supported that because I wanted to see her happy.
As far as me personally...I don't think I was really ever a direct need for her. I should have realized this when I was pursuing her. She initially didn't show all that much interest, but what little she did sure did hook me in for wanting more. This woman never was really sexual. I sure was hoping that would change, but it did not. She was one that rarely ever masturbated. I'm talking like maybe once every few years. She just didn't understand why I thought it was important that she was in touch with her own sexuality.
She told me she tried to use the rabbit I bought her for Christmas one day after we had some upset and I was out of town. She said it felt too mechanical and hard. It wasn't very pleasurable. She said a running faucet would do her better than that dumb rabbit.



> If she is living with mental illness you're sort of in a pickle because you can't blame her for being sick, you can't hold her responsible when it's her mind's instability that is the cause. All you can do is repair the damage that has been caused by choosing to stay with her, try to get her the help she needs and move on and make the conscious decision that you feel she is not good enough for you as is.


I understand my problem. That is why I am dedicated to get her the help she needs. I want to see her get better. I do not however, want to continue a relationship with her. We are simple too incompatible. I am HD and know that no matter how much hormone therapy, how much counseling she gets or how much I Alpha up, there will never be a satisfactory level I would be comfortable with. She never felt the desire for me that really needed to be there. I was kidding myself all these years, thinking she loved me the same way I loved her.
Now I cannot discount her love for me, but it was not necessarily sexual in nature. We are very much compatible outside of the bedroom. We listen to the same type of music, enjoy outside activities, share the same political followings...we are great friends, just terrible lovers.
Whatever I must do to see her through this is what I will do. I want to offer up furthering her education, assist with her living expenses, cover her medical costs. I want to take care of her while she is getting help. Heck, she is currently in belly dance lessons, as well as Pilates. I'll keep funding those too. When we divorce, she will not get any alimony, as Indiana's divorce laws are fairly simple. Whatever she does get will be because of my volunteering to do so. I want to see her well and happy. I know she'd like to think we would be buying another home soon, even though she has decided not to contribute towards obtaining one. That is really the only thing I can think of that she had hopes for...to secure a home again.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Uptown said:


> Good point, Trenton. Like I said earlier, your being a self aware "BPDer" makes you uniquely positioned to help both BPDers and Nons by providing an alternative view.I disagree, if I understand you correctly. My view -- and I believe Indy agrees -- is that, if his W is to have any real incentive to confront her issues and learn how to manage them, she must be held fully accountable for her harmful actions. Nearly every parent knows that, if they don't allow a four year old to suffer the logical consequences of her own bad choices and behavior, she will never have an incentive to learn more mature ego defenses, e.g., how to do self soothing.
> 
> Granted, Indy's W is not responsible for the childhood trauma causing her issues to arise. That trauma was forced onto her at a young age if she is a BPDer. She nonetheless must be held accountable for her current behavior. Hence, the importance of learning about BPD traits is that it provides an *explanation* -- not an *excuse* -- for her destructive behavior.
> 
> And, granted, a BPDer never chose to acquire the emotional instability in childhood. In adulthood, however, she makes choices every day that have negative consequences, e.g., choosing to reject therapy. IMO, it is important to hold her responsible for those dysfunctional choices by allowing her to suffer the logical consequences. Otherwise, Indy would continue down the path of harming her by being the enabler who allows her to continue behaving like a spoiled child -- and continue getting away with it.


You make a great point and one I have even asked my wife to speak with her counselor about.
I have told her how hurtful her suicidal comments are towards me. I have used her son as a mechanism in attempts to bring her back to reality. I would ask her, "How do you think your son will take it when he gets the call that his mother just committed suicide?" That did always seem to wake her up a bit, but this last episode didn't phase her, not really at all.
I asked her to ask her counselor what am I supposed to do to hold her accountable for her actions and words? What is it exactly I am supposed to do when she does and says those things? It's not like I can crack her across the ass and tell her to stop it. That was something that was never done to her as a child. She was rarely ever corrected, yet her mother continued to love her, no matter how terrible she would act.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Trenton said:


> There is a lot that has to be dealt with but strangely I'm not getting the vibe that the mental instability is what actually is shoving you out the door but rather it's the years of feeling that your sexuality has been ignored and your resentment at your wife for not taking care of this need or even recognizing your needs when you feel you took care of her needs.


And those needs are normal expectations in a marriage. You want to hold it against him?



> Ask yourself if you've actually taken care of her needs though and I'm not saying that you haven't. Yes, you were a great father to her child and helped raise a well adjusted 25 year old man. Yes, you worked and provided her with a home and food, etc. but where is she within her mind and heart? Does she feel that her needs are met? Do you even know those needs? Does she?


What about his needs? Are those less important than hers? Is this an attempt for blame-shifting? Are we supposed to forgive her in everything she does because she has some mental problems, which she refused to recognize in the past, and now Mr. Indy must take the blame for "allowing himself to be a victim"?

I am not picking on you, I just want to understand better, why Mr. Indy is being criticized here, as if his suffering all these years is not punishment enough for his "lack of" whatever?



> If she is living with mental illness you're sort of in a pickle because you can't blame her for being sick, you can't hold her responsible when it's her mind's instability that is the cause. All you can do is repair the damage that has been caused by choosing to stay with her, try to get her the help she needs and move on and make the conscious decision that you feel she is not good enough for you as is.


I believe Mr. Indy is doing exactly that, and that's why we are supporting him.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

IndyTMI said:


> I asked her to ask her counselor what am I supposed to do to hold her accountable for her actions and words? What is it exactly I am supposed to do when she does and say those things?


You establish strong personal boundaries, making it clear that you will not stay in her presence while she is abusive and disrespectful. You then enforce those boundaries by leaving when she violates them. Specifically, for small abuses, this can mean you go into the next room. 

For larger abuses, you tell her you will be back in several hours (so she knows you are not abandoning her) and then leave. For a major temper tantrum, you leave for weeks -- or perhaps permanently. Hence, the logical consequences of her abusing you is that you will not tolerate it -- which you enforce by going to another room, leaving for several hours, or moving out permanently. 

That, at least, is what you would do if you were still living with a BPDer. Yet, because you've already done all those things -- to the point of having separated from your W -- the issue now is whether there is any condition under which you would move back in with her. Apparently not. You say you've decided to proceed with the D and to help her from a safe distance.

It therefore must be clear that her behavior is something she is expected to learn how to manage -- the very same expectation adults have for nearly every four year old. Her emotional immaturity does not give her a free pass to abuse you because, if she chooses to do so, she can take advantage of the many excellent treatment programs available all over this country.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Trenton said:


> John, I am not saying that he doesn't deserve to live in a sex filled marriage but more so that it's a responsibility that was his all along and so if it were a priority then he should have set the boundaries necessary to keep it a priority. Doing so now will appear confusing to his wife.


I understand that Mr. Indy failed to enforce his boundaries and established his priorities during marriage, I think, because that's his personality, he is a caregiver, a MacGyver if we are to coin a phrase. His tolerance is too high, and his wife simply took advantage of his MacGyver personality. Are we now punishing him for being a MacGyver, for being himself, and now we allow his wife to get away from all the wrongdoings she had committed, by putting all responsibilities on his shoulders? That sounds unfair to me.



> I understand this role of the victim and I absolutely make concessions for our humanity for both men and women, but I have an issue with the idea that being a victim of anything is helpful to the person overcoming whatever was done to them. Accept that these things happened, figure out why it happened, what role we played (if ANY), and find a way to change it so that we can become survivors because essentially if we are alive we are indeed all survivors of something and
> that's something to be grateful for.


Mr. Indy made wrong decision in the past and paid dearly with years and years of unhappy marriage, and being unable to express himself fully. I believe that's enough punishments for his wrong decision. Now he is starting to make necessary actions to get back on his feet. What he needs are encouragements. Not blameshifting. Not to be reminded that he made wrong decision in the past. But to ensure him for making better decision in the future.



> I don't honestly see Indy's wife as a victim of her mental illness (I'm not the one who believes that she is mentally ill--but if she were, then like any other illness, it doesn't much matter whether you forgive as the illness is still there. I rather see Mrs. Indy as a victim of apathy...apathy in regards to her own self care, apathy in regards to her marriage, apathy in regards to her fainancial contributions to the marriage, apathy in regards to the sexual needs of her husband. No wonder she is depressed and spiraling out of control. What a horrible place to allow yourself to go.


What about Mr. Indy himself, isn't he also a victim of his wife's "apathy" as you termed it? 



> Mr. Indy contributed to allowing her to live this way for his own reasons and this is fine because he's certainly not her parent but this is where they're at right now.


I could understand this, as you see, Mr and Mrs. Indy certainly had had no control in her past upbringing. Especially considering Mr. Indy has this MacGyver personality, it is understandable why he put up with his wife's bad behavior for so long, for far too long.



> *Indy I don't mean to be hyper critical or make you feel defensive*. I want to offer you a different perspective so that you can be mindful. Having others cheer us on is always a great feeling and it gives us courage but you've got to get to the point where that courage comes from within.


Thank you for making your points more clear. Because I've been "hearing" is that you seemed to blame Mr. Indy for what happened to their marriage, and his pain and suffering all these years are his own fault, and that we are wrong to try to cheer him up. 

But anyway, I think now I understand some of your points, and I hope Mr. Indy got it too. I agree with you that courage comes from within. :smthumbup:



> Sorry if I repeated anything in my comments. I'm tired but wanted to reply and know I didn't read as well as I should have.


I appreciate your willingness to comment and reply. Trust me, the reason why I am calling you out for your comments is in the interest of fairness, it's nothing personal, and I also am very interested to hear opposing views. Sometimes the opposing views has the effects of enforcing my own, and sometimes it could lead me into changing my previous views in lights of new information.

I might sounds like an undying protector of MacGyver, but I like to see myself as a fair person, and if all you ask is for me to be fair in assessing the situation of Mr. Indy and his wife, then yes, I am always prepared to be enlightened.


----------



## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

IndyTMI said:


> Unloved. Unimportant. Unrespected. Empty.


These are Indy's core issues.



Trenton said:


> What I also think is interesting is that you seem most angry about the void of sexual symmetry between the two of you more so than you are about how she has physically come after you and made a mess of herself through childish rages and threats.


At first I certainly agreed with you Trenton.

But then I thought about the lack of sexual fulfillment and the wife's ... behavior for lack of a better word, in the frame of Indy's core issues, his core emotional needs.

His wife's behavior actual satisfies his emotional needs. That behavior makes him feel important, wanted, loved. In a very disfunctional way, it was exactly what Indy needed.

The lack of sexual fulfillment is exactly the opposite of satisfying Indy's core needs.

So when you consider it within that frame, it is not surprising that Indy does not present his wifes erratic behavior as a major issue in his life.

Ironically, I believe he would have left her a long time ago if she didn't exhibit this behavior....


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Trenton said:


> In regards to Indy's wife, it would depend on whether she knows what she's doing when she goes into these rages as to whether she can be held accountable in a reasonable sense and that's what I meant. Not so much that it was or was not an excuse, more that it is what it is.


It's not just the rages that I wanted to hold her accountable for, it was also the manipulating she did through her threats of suicide. She didn't have to be raging to threaten suicide. It would be something that if life wasn't going in the direction she wanted and she thought I could do something about it, she would bring it up.
Never has she ever apologized directly for any of these actions she has taken against me. However, she did provide a generalized apology here recently for everything. She wrapped it all up into one apology, but didn't do or say anything else to show she felt remorse.
The rages were certainly her way of lashing out at me, releasing whatever built up tension she had inside of her. You want to talk about blame shifting -- when she would lash out at me during her rage fests, anything and everything was my fault. I was the reason she was stressed and couldn't sleep. I was the one that caused all of our problems, ever.
This woman was never held accountable for her actions growing up and once her bad behavior began to show up in our marriage, my boundaries became flexible, accepting unacceptable behavior in order to help fix her.

She is so filled with great sadness and regret about her mother. She feels terrible for how she treated her mother growing up, telling her how she hated her so. She completely destroyed any relationship her mother tried to form through dating. She didn't want a father replacement, she wanted the one that abandoned her.
She has never felt the ramifications for her actions through any sort of discipline or the like. I am no longer up for the task of trying to instill this now.




> John, I am not saying that he doesn't deserve to live in a sex filled marriage but more so that it's a responsibility that was his all along and so if it were a priority then he should have set the boundaries necessary to keep it a priority. Doing so now will appear confusing to his wife.
> 
> Taking care of our own needs is a choice as well and often when we get stuck in the role of caregiver it's because we don't value ourselves. It's that we don't think we deserve it more than it is what we actually deserve or not.
> 
> I understand this role of the victim and I absolutely make concessions for our humanity for both men and women, but I have an issue with the idea that being a victim of anything is helpful to the person overcoming whatever was done to them. Accept that these things happened, figure out why it happened, what role we played (if ANY), and find a way to change it so that we can become survivors because essentially if we are alive we are indeed all survivors of something and that's something to be grateful for.


It's true, I didn't have very high value of myself growing up. I always felt like the underdog. I felt like I was not quite like all the other guys...I was not fully with the in-crowd. There are probably things from my childhood I could point to that helped build these thoughts I carried on my back. There was a bit of an awakening once I joined the military and saw how I preformed among the other men. I could see that I didn't have all of these hangups that other men had. I was mentally strong at that point in my life. I achieved every advancement opportunity that came available during my enlistment. I excelled above my peers. I had confidence, pride and a positive outlook on life.
It seems that once I became involved with my wife, those confident building things in my life started to get torn down due to my caregiver approach with my wife. When our business failed, I now know I was depressed and my wife even made mention of this just recently. I started to close off from communicating as much. With what I was already feeling, having my wife's depression to compound it simply made life miserable. Once I shifted focus to my new job, I was able to break free of most of my depression, but had to continue to battle with my wife's.
At this point in my life, I am willing to accept the things that happened. I understand the roles we played and why we are where we are today. I am a survivor! I will break free from these dreadful chains that have been holding me down. I will overcome this.



> I don't honestly see Indy's wife as a victim of her mental illness (I'm not the one who believes that she is mentally ill--but if she were, then like any other illness, it doesn't much matter whether you forgive as the illness is still there. I rather see Mrs. Indy as a victim of apathy...apathy in regards to her own self care, apathy in regards to her marriage, apathy in regards to her financial contributions to the marriage, apathy in regards to the sexual needs of her husband. No wonder she is depressed and spiraling out of control. What a horrible place to allow yourself to go.


If she is not mentally ill, then she is just childish in nature and bounces back between being a responsible adult and acting like a brat. I never knew a brat to have such intense rage events or threaten suicide. I don't ever recall doing either as a child, myself. From what I recall, she entered into the sanctity of marriage with me voluntarily, but then never wanted to live up to that commitment. She didn't have the desire to because she didn't marry me because she was passionately in love with me -- she was passionately in love with the fact I was taking care of her.



> Mr. Indy contributed to allowing her to live this way for his own reasons and this is fine because he's certainly not her parent but this is where they're at right now.
> 
> Indy I don't mean to be hyper critical or make you feel defensive. I want to offer you a different perspective so that you can be mindful. Having others cheer us on is always a great feeling and it gives us courage but you've got to get to the point where that courage comes from within.


I am grateful for your input. You help me see things from her perspective, which does open my eyes as to how she may view things differently from how I think. I believe I had already assessed my situation and knew the path I finally wanted to head down, I just was unsure of my own confidence to do something about it.



> In regards to your wife, it is possible that she is low drive and that passionate and exceptional love making experience that you crave is not something that she can give unless she does so simply to please you?
> 
> Or could it be that she is closed off and depressed (as you've already suggested) and that she's not comfortable with her own sexuality. I've always gone through the motions of providing a satisfying sex life for my husband because I recognize it's a tremendous need for him and I appreciate him but it wasn't until recently where I've begun to get to a point where I want to explore my own sexuality free from the confines of what I expect of myself.


No, that is not it. She was one that rarely showed any sort of affection, attention or love. I was so envious of other relationships. Watching couples hold hands, kiss, show any bit of affection. I have been craving it for so long...I yearn for it. When it came to making love, of course I was always the one to initiate and make sure her needs were met. She never cared about my needs. I realized it was way easier for her to achieve orgasm via oral, so I made it a point to ensure she was taken care of. She has never ever made it a point to bring me sexual enjoyment. I suppose my needs were about as important as she thought masturbation was to her...nonexistent.
We have been together for nearly 18 years and I have had less BJ's than I have fingers.



> Of course, my experience may not apply in any way to your wife.
> 
> The questions I'd be asking her point blank would be:
> 
> ...


You ask great questions. I was hired by our biggest client and they purchased a press very similar to the one I had. They were ecstatic about the quality of printing I provided and wanted to maintain that once I shut my business down. That job only lasted just over a year because the company was purchased by a large national retailer and then downsized and consolidated many of their departments. They already had a working operation at one of their other facilities that provided what I did. I was let go. I decided to take a small break from employment to focus on myself. Since as a business, I funded unemployment insurance for over seven years and decided I might as well get some of my money back. I stayed on unemployment until it ran out. During my downtime, I researched other businesses to start and actually went down the path to produce screen printed shirts. I actually bought a 6 color manual press, built the other items needed and began a small operation out of my basement. It was a lot of work getting every working like it should. Ultimately, I realized it was more work than I cared to put into it, so now it is torn down and in storage until I decide what to do with it.
I then switched career paths back into information technology. I now have a great job supporting the infrastructure of a growing IT firm. I make more now than I ever have. And here is the kicker...I do not have a college degree. I do not hold any valid certifications. I was able to obtain this position through my confidence and ability to convince others of that ability. I did hold Microsoft certifications back in the old NT 4.0 days, and I worked in IT prior to starting my business and always did well.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

My counseling session went well. I wished I could have spent more than just an hour, but I guess that is what follow up sessions are for.

I was able to get out the majority of what was on my mind. The counselor would like for me, if I am willing, to consider the fact we were doing it wrong and try another approach prior to calling it quits.
I raised my concerns about how I never really felt threatened until this last time and don't want to put myself into a situation that could be damaging to my physical well being. She reassured me that she had my well being in mind.
She suggests while we are living separately, we approach our relationship as a clean slate. No holding onto resentments, just like we first met and had infatuation for one another.
My wife didn't necessarily have infatuation towards me in the beginning, but I know she felt something or we wouldn't have got married.
She was the one that asked me to move in with her and her son. She is the one that asked me if I was going to propose...
I told her earlier in the relatioinship what my big plan was for us, but she didn't see it at the time. Looks like later she saw I was serious and waited until she was ready.

She basically wants us to only part if we have left no stone unturned. I don't think my wife can muster up to actually show she has my needs in her mind as a concern with the relationship. I believe it will ultimately show that she doesn't care and things will drift away, as they have in the past. I told the counselor I would certainly give it a try...I either get my wife back and stand my firm ground about what is and what is not acceptable behavior, or we part ways and pursue a new relationship.

I have to seriously look at what I am doing to contribute to the toxicity of the relationship and STOP IT!!!

Of course, my wife has to be accepting of the terms and conditions that the counselor is going to help officiate.

I know I can't go into this with a negative mindset or I will be looking for the flaws to point them out. Am I wasting my time? My wife will be the one to answer that question through actions or otherwise.

Uptown, I did mention what you had pointed out about her disassociative events and your comments that followed. She thanked me for bringing that to her attention and will dig deeper with my wife during her session.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Just got back from having dinner with my wife.
I told her about most of my session, but obviously didn't mention anything about my initial conclusion that we were through.

She called me this morning at work because she had a bad dream and wanted to validate that it was just a dream and nothing more to it.
Last night, my friend that is letting me stay at his place had sent me a text message asking me to go to his room and hide a book, so his ex wouldn't see it. He was wanting this done ASAP because his ex-wife may come out to look for something she couldn't find at her house. They had just recently divorced, so she still had a few belongings in the house and still had a key. When I got the text, I was with my wife at our rental. I told her about the text and had to leave. She didn't ask any questions at the time, we hugged and said bye.

Once I got to the house, he sends me another text that said to never mind, she found what she was looking for at her house.
So at dinner tonight, she tells me that last night was the very first time she had ever dreamed about having sex...it was with me and she said it was wonderful. She said that once she had her orgasm, she said I asked for anal, which immediately turned her nice dream into a disaster. She thought, "Here we go again...you can forget it, buster!" She said she was never going there again, so get it out of your head. 

So, when she woke this morning, she had it in her head that somehow my friend was arranging for me to meet up with some gal out at his place. Seriously? I'm still married! I showed her the text to appease her unwarranted thoughts.

I went on to tell her about my session and some of the things that came out into the open. I explained that the older I get, the more in touch with my sexuality I have become. I am at the point in my life where I feel anything a couple does consensually, is on the table. She choked on that comment and said, "but, I'm not willing to do anal, ever again." I told her that that was not a deal breaker...it was more of a fantasy than anything else and I didn't need that to feel fulfilled in the relationship, plus, she should understand that she just made it nonconsensual, so it's not on the table. It doesn't fit my criteria to be on the table, so what's the problem?

I elaborated a bit about the letter I wrote her and how I now feel better for getting out all of the finger pointing and resentful feelings. It allowed me to let go of some of the anger. She said it was good I was able to do that. She said she feels bad for how she starved me all of these years.
I suggested she write me a letter and not send it, but she said she doesn't feel any resentment or negative feelings towards me. She looked a little sad and went on to complain about the effects from taking the hormones. Here she is post-menopausal, yet she is experiencing discharge that is making her mad. She thought she was done with wearing pads and having to deal with that mess. She said she wasn't going to take any more hormones because it hasn't helped her sex drive one bit. I beg to differ, as I noticed more contribution/activity from her during sex, but it is all focused on herself and not for me. She said it hasn't helped her desire for me. That, I cannot argue with...at least she hasn't shown me any.

I went on to tell her about us starting off fresh...reset back to dating again. She asked if I was going to move back in when my friend returns and I told her that the counselor thought it would be best if we remained separated while we are working through this. I certainly agree.

Elaborating a bit more about what exactly needs to occur for us to work as a couple, I told her that I am fully engaged in seeing that she is satisfied, fulfilled with pleasure. It is the very same thing I seek. I need this for our relationship to work. I need to know that she has my desires in her thoughts and concerns. I need to know that she wants this relationship to be sexually satisfying.

She couldn't hide her facial expressions too well. I could see the discouragement, almost as if she doesn't think it is within her to meet my needs. I think this goes along with her not feeling very sexual as a person. I don't think that she will be willing to do her part in the relationship.

I went on to tell her about her suicidal comments...how manipulating they were and that I wasn't going to tolerate that type of language ever again. I am not her mom, her grandparents...I am her spouse, her mutual partner and deserve respect. 
When we have our next session together, the counselor is going to help establish ground rules for our courtship. I was thinking something similar to the following for a portion of it...

The next time I hear a suicidal comment, I will be checking her into a clinic, admitting her. If she is crying for help, I'll get her help. If she is crying wolf, it will be a wakeup call to her inappropriate behavior.
Even tonight she said there wasn't much to look forward to in life.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Uptown, I wonder did you read the 10 year study on BPD and its remission rates?


Trenton, yes, I read it shortly after it was published in 2011. I am pleased that, *for the BPDers*, there is finally a study showing that -- even for those not being treated -- there is some abatement of the symptoms over time. I applaud any finding that offers some measure of hope to untreated BPDers.

*For the abused spouses*, however, I don't believe the study shows they will ever be treated much better -- even if they do wait for another ten years to find out. Significantly, while the study finds that the BPDers' symptoms tend to moderate somewhat after ten years, it finds no substantial improvement in their ability to function socially. It finds, _"The clinically modest levels of functional improvement for BPD [i.e., scores on the Global Assessment of Functioning]... increased from 53 to 57."_ The study therefore concludes that _"__BPD psychopathology improves more than generally expected but that psychosocial functioning often remains impaired."_

Of course, it makes no sense for the dysfunctional behavioral traits to substantially decrease while the level of functioning barely changes. I suspect this discrepancy (which the study is unable to explain) is largely due to the absurd diagnostic procedure on which it is based. Namely, it uses the same dichotomous diagnostic procedure that has been used for three decades in the diagnostic manual -- an approach that is being entirely gutted and replaced with the graduated approach I mentioned above.

Specifically, the study says _"remission was defined as meeting 2 or fewer criteria for BPD.... Relapse for BPD was defined as returning to 5 or more criteria (the DSM-IV threshold)."_ As I tried to explain above, the problem with this dichotomous approach is that a person exhibiting a symptom at the 100% level is said to "have the trait" and a person exhibiting it at the 90% level is said to "not have the trait." Hence, a very modest reduction in several of the nine symptoms can easily translate into a dramatic drop in the count of traits that are present.

Moreover, the study seems to be based on 111 BPDers who generally are low functioning. It therefore is unclear that any improvements seen in these LF BPDers also would be seen in HF BPDers (had they been included in the study). This is an important distinction because the spouses and partners being abused by BPDers typically are dealing with _high functioning_ BPDers. It is highly unlikely that an abused spouse would have dated, much less married, a low functioning BPDer. 

One indication that the 111 BPDers are LF is that the mean social functioning score for the group -- at the start of the study -- is only 53 on a 100 point scale. That is well below the 70 needed for a "good functioning" score. Another indication is that only about 20% of this adult group is cohabiting or married at the study beginning. 

A third indication of the participants being LF BPDers is that they were recruited from 19 clinical settings (hospital and outpatient) in 4 cities. The study says, "The resulting samples were most frequently ascertained from psychiatric outpatient clinics (43%) and from psychiatric hospitals (12%)." Taking samples from such clinical settings can greatly bias the results because it is the LF BPDers, not the HF ones, who are in such pain that they will seek clinical therapy or become hospitalized. HF BPDers generally are loath to seek therapy.

I therefore believe the study offers little comfort to anyone deciding whether to hold on for another ten years in a toxic relationship. It doesn't much matter whether or not an abusive spouse meets 100% of the diagnostic guidelines for "having BPD." The abused spouse may be almost as miserable trying to live with a BPDer meeting 75% or 85% of the guidelines as with one meeting 100%. This is why the new diagnostic manual (to be released this May) replaces those flawed guidelines with a graduated approach.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Uptown said:


> Trenton, yes, I read it shortly after it was published in 2011. I am pleased that, *for the BPDers*, there is finally a study showing that -- even for those not being treated -- there is some abatement of the symptoms over time. I applaud any finding that offers some measure of hope to untreated BPDers.
> 
> *For the abused spouses*, however, I don't believe the study shows they will ever be treated much better -- even if they do wait for another ten years to find out. Significantly, while the study finds that the BPDers' symptoms tend to moderate somewhat after ten years, it finds no substantial improvement in their ability to function socially. It finds, _"The clinically modest levels of functional improvement for BPD [i.e., scores on the Global Assessment of Functioning]... increased from 53 to 57."_ The study therefore concludes that _"__BPD psychopathology improves more than generally expected but that psychosocial functioning often remains impaired."_
> 
> ...


Dear Mr. Uptown and Mrs. Trenton,

I am learning a lot from the exchanges which the two of you are having in regards to BPD and all its aspects. Thank you for broadening my knowledge.

Don't you think these BPD matters deserves to be given its own thread?

So that, we could focus on Mr. Indy's problems in _this_ thread.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I'm good with the input in this thread, I've been reading it all. I think there should probably be a sticky made about BPD somewhere.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

IndyTMI said:


> Uptown, I did mention what you had pointed out about her disassociative events and your comments that followed.


Indy, Pink was the one who suggested (post #181 above) that you mention two incidents to your therapist. One was the out-of-body experience your W reported -- an experience that is not uncommon for BPDers, who sometimes have the feeling they are watching themselves as a character in a movie. 

The other incident was about your W sitting up in bed and daydreaming for 7 hours. As Pink explained, the first incident seems to be a clear example of disassociation and the latter might be. I agree with Pink. Daydreaming, which is a mild form of disassociation (aka, "splitting"), is something we all do dozens of times a day. What might be unusual about your account, then, is only that it was done for 7 hours.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Mr. Indy,

This:



IndyTMI said:


> ...She said she feels bad for how she starved me all of these years..


BUT:



> ..I need to know that she has my desires in her thoughts and concerns. I need to know that she wants this relationship to be sexually satisfying.
> 
> She couldn't hide her facial expressions too well. I could see the discouragement, almost as if *she doesn't think it is within her to meet my needs*. I think this goes along with her not feeling very sexual as a person. I don't think that she will be willing to do her part in the relationship..


Therefore, Mr. Indy.. even _you_ could feel that she is not genuine.

Don't be swayed by fake empty promises and she-crocodile tears.

Mental case or not, this is one woman who doesn't deserve to be rescued by a MacGyver.

Stop being a MacGyver for this woman. 

She's giving all good ladies a bad name. And there are nice women out there. 

You deserves better.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Thanks Uptown for clarifying...

Sorry Pink, I want to give credit, where it is due!



Uptown said:


> Indy, Pink was the one who suggested (post #181 above) that you mention two incidents to your therapist. One was the out-of-body experience your W reported -- an experience that is not uncommon for BPDers, who sometimes have the feeling they are watching themselves as a character in a movie.
> 
> The other incident was about your W sitting up in bed and daydreaming for 7 hours. As Pink explained, the first incident seems to be a clear example of disassociation and the latter might be. I agree with Pink. Daydreaming, which is a mild form of disassociation (aka, "splitting"), is something we all do dozens of times a day. What might be unusual about your account, then, is only that it was done for 7 hours.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Trenton said:


> Uptown, my bias and your bias may just equal no bias when read all together, no?
> 
> To stick to the matter though:
> Indy...
> ...


We only engaged in anal once and she didn't enjoy it. She didn't experience any pain, but said it just made her feel like she needed to take a dump, and that in itself was uncomfortable. For her, no pleasure means she's not going to do it. I understand her position and have not pressured her since she said no. She is the one that chooses to bring it up whenever she is feeling cornered or without a valid rebuttal. She tries to use it as a trump card or something. We've discussed it and she knows it is a fantasy of mine, so with her it will remain a fantasy...I'm fine with that. She somehow, still has a hangup about it...thinking I must have it.



> In order for sexual attraction to be restored beyond previous expectations and where you would like I think the following has to be true:
> 
> *1. That you find her body hot*
> 2. That she finds her body hot
> ...


I bolded what I know to be true.
#8, she is not comfortable with her sexuality, but I have certainly become comfortable with mine.



> Since your wife has her own issues in regards to mental health and you have many issues in regards to inner confidence and fully believing you're valuable, well, it will take work.
> 
> Nothing is lost until you lose it. I don't believe you are both at the point of no return but you are damn close.
> 
> ...


Over the course of my relationship with my wife, I've had two distinct opportunities to engage in extramarital affairs. I avoided both of them immediately because I do value the sanctity of marriage and I wouldn't want to break that trust. One of those was a direct offer for anal. I told my wife about this recently and she was first a bit pissed that I never told her about them before, but I told her since I didn't take action on them, they were no different than spam I might get in email. It's not like I was intentionally pursuing these women to get some strange. I told my wife about these to reinforce the fact I love her and am devoted to our relationship. And, even though I may have felt sexually deprived at home, I didn't seek out a PA. I remained faithful, turning to porn instead. Recently, I have reached a point in my life where I look at myself, my sexual needs and am feeling deprived of what should be naturally occurring. Why am I in the bathroom taking care of myself on an almost daily routine when I have a beautiful wife in the bedroom, just laying there. I don't want to live like this anymore. It boils down to the fact that if my wife ever asked me for anything sexual, I'd be right there to take it on. BRING IT!!! When it is reversed, she shows reservation, diversion, avoidance, poor interest if she does decide to do anything. I think she has purposefully given terrible BJ's in the past so I wouldn't want them anymore. Yes, there is such a thing as a bad BJ, my wife is really good at it, even though she's only done it just over a handful of times.

If I was approached at this time...damn, I would be so tempted...so very tempted. I think it could possibly drive me to go ahead and end it with my wife so I could have a healthy sexual relationship. I would struggle with this for sure. Thanks for making me see this.



> So that's my advice. I honestly wish you all the love in the world and wish your wife the same albeit with one another or with others or even alone.
> 
> If you are going to listen to your therapist and place a reset button please only do so if you are willing to place that reset button and your wife is willing to do the same. Make this clear and take this chance to be honest, to behave differently, to communicate what you're thinking when you're thinking it and be receptive from your wife for the same.
> 
> ...


I'm not going to get my hopes up too much because I have this distinct feeling that she will be the one to say she can not, will not be able to keep up on her end of the compromise.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Besides IC/MC, I am looking for self help on how to break the chains of codependency.
Uptown already gave me great advice on setting boundaries for her abuse and disrespect.
I want to work on other self confidence builders and was looking for any recommendations for books I should get and read.


----------



## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Co-Dependant No More by Melonie Beattie
NMMNG is really about codependancy too


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Saki said:


> Co-Dependant No More by Melonie Beattie
> NMMNG is really about codependancy too


Thanks...I was browsing back through this thread because I knew it had been mentioned, but I was a bit apprehensive about searching through 15 pages of posts...

I found this posted by Uptown...


> I therefore suggest you read Schreiber's explanation of codependency at DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?. Please be patient, because the last half of her article is even better than the first. I also like the book, Codependent No More.


I bought a four bundle deal from Hazelden, Melody Beattie Bundle. It consists of Codependent No More, The Language of Letting Go, More Language of Letting Go, and Beyond Codependency.
Altogether, it is 2400 pages. Looks like I've got plenty of reading to keep me occupied while living separately from my wife.

I'm currently reading Schreiber's article and also forwarded it to my wife.

Holy ****...my mother told me I was the only one of her four that was a Good Baby and Never Cried...I'm crying right now though...



> A fairly large number of clients have reported that throughout their life, their mother commented on what a 'good baby' they'd been; "you never cried" is what they've repeatedly been told growing up. All babies have substantial needs, and they cry to alert their parent to what's required concerning food, diapering, holding/comforting, warmth, etc. If the baby never cries, we must ask why. Did it feel unsafe to express these vital needs? Did we sense we might not survive, if we inconvenienced our mother by having any needs? As this child grows, will he presume his utter silence and refusal to have needs, is an admirable and good thing?


The further I read, the more I hurt...this is hitting me hard!


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> ...I didn't seek out a PA. I remained faithful, turning to porn instead. Recently, I have reached a point in my life where I look at myself, my sexual needs and am feeling deprived of what should be naturally occurring. Why am I in the bathroom taking care of myself on an almost daily routine when I have a beautiful wife in the bedroom, just laying there. I don't want to live like this anymore. It boils down to the fact that if my wife ever asked me for anything sexual, I'd be right there to take it on. BRING IT!!! When it is reversed, she shows reservation, diversion, avoidance, poor interest if she does decide to do anything. I think she has purposefully given terrible BJ's in the past so I wouldn't want them anymore. Yes, there is such a thing as a bad BJ, my wife is really good at it, even though she's only done it just over a handful of times.


:iagree:

Good. NEVER forget these terrible feelings. NEVER forget that you're mad. NEVER EVER forget that you've been wronged. The next time anyone persuade you to change your mind about divorcing your ingrate wife, REMEMBER these feelings above. There is NOTHING WRONG of wanting a divorce because your needs aren't respected, don't anybody tell you any different.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I had dinner with the wife again tonight and showed her Schreiber's article. We discussed some of it and then talked about future living arrangements. Looks like I will be getting her an appartment soon and I will move back into the rental home until July, then find another rental home, just for myself.
She understands there is no quick fix and this will take some time before either of us can heal.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I just got off the phone with my oldest brother, he is six years my senior. I had to talk to someone in my family I could confide to. There are four of us siblings and he is the only one I can relate with. He and I are very much alike. He has many of the same characteristics, like me. He acknowledges them as well. He was on his way to work, so I couldn't talk long. I am scheduled to meet him and his wife this Saturday so I can spend a good four hours dumping my hurt brain on him.
He was telling me about his high school years. He somehow became the local Dear Abby for all of his friends. They would all bring their problems to him and he would provide them with solutions and guidance. His job function is being a troubleshooter for machinery at an automotive plant. He and I like to fix problems, certainly a trait we learned from our father.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Trenton said:


> Uptown, my bias and your bias may just equal no bias when read all together, no?
> 
> **********
> Nothing is lost until you lose it. I don't believe you are both at the point of no return but you are damn close.
> ...



Trenton, Well done!


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Indy, you've started your journey. Lots to learn, many "wow that is so me" moments. Underline things, but don't dwell over long. Recognize the anger for what it is, then release it and love onward.

I wish you peace.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

This link at the bottom of the article really defines me and my marriage.

'TILL DEATH DO US PART - BPD and The Marriage Crucible

I'm going to sleep on what I just read...


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I remember not feeling as loved as my other siblings...
With the fact that throughout my life, my mother has repeatedly told me I was a 'Good Baby' and I never cried. Does this mean that because I didn't cry, I wasn't picked up and held as often? Compound that with the fact that I was also told repeated that they were wanting a girl, because they already had two boys, but they had me instead. They tried one more time and finally got their little girl they had hoped I would be. And the final straw is they named me a with a unisex name.

Just how impacting was all of this on me growing up?

I had also found that I had developed an unhealthy habit of calling my wife 'mommy'. That stems from relating with her son...always referring to her as 'mom', instead of 'your mom'.



I suppose I can consider myself lucky for not becoming a homosexual or transvestite. 



I have read through several of Shari Schreiber's articles and that woman is amazing.
The more I read, the more confident I am that I can do this...I am a survivor. I will get past this.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

IndyTMI said:


> Just how impacting was all of this on me growing up?


You may have ended up placing too high a value on being needed, as opposed to being loved for what you already are. On the other hand, everything you've said here indicates you are a loving, caring, affectionate, and considerate man. Hence, your parents must have done A LOT of things right. You can't argue with success, Indy.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

After speaking with the counselor during my last visit, and I had described several of my wife's BPD characteristics, she told me she wasn't quite ready to make that determination or sure my wife had BPD.

How could she not, when she shows nearly all of the signs of it, to include splicing. She always avoids resolution, just wants to omit that part...skip it and go back as though nothing ever happened. No remorseful feelings, no apology, nothing. 

My wife had her sessions today, but refused to elaborate on anything they talked about. She did tell me we have our group session this coming Tuesday. 

I've read nearly all of Schreiber's articles and she paints a pretty gloom outlook for anyone involved in a relationship with someone with BPD. It has helped me see my wife for who she really is. 

I really don't have the will, the drive to pursue a relationship with my wife any longer. I just want it to be over with. I don't think I can go through this next session acting as if I'm trying to repair this relationship any longer. I want to break free of these chains. I am pissed at myself for giving so much and never receiving anything much in return. I understand I have allowed this. No more!

Schreiber's articles reinforce what I already knew about my wife and give me the guidance (along with those that have contributed to this thread), to do what is best for me. I am putting myself first this time...damn it!


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Keep moving forward and try not to look back to often. Theres someone out there for you...remember you deserve to have someone who loves you as much as you love them. Here's wishing you the best.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

IndyTMI said:


> After speaking with the counselor during my last visit, and I had described several of my wife's BPD characteristics, she told me she wasn't quite ready to make that determination or sure my wife had BPD. How could she not?


Indy, if your W does have full blown BPD, your best chance of being told about it is to see a psychologist who has not treated or seen her. This is why I earlier suggested (post #28 above) you see YOUR OWN psychologist all by yourself. Relying on your W's therapist for advice during the marriage is as foolish as relying on her attorney for advice during the divorce. It is important you see a professional who is ethically bound to protect only YOUR best interests, not hers.

It is well known -- both inside and outside the psychiatric community -- that therapists are loath to tell a high functioning BPDer -- much less her H -- the name of her disorder. This information is routinely withheld to protect the disordered client. One reason is that listing the diagnosis as "BPD" almost certainly means that insurance will not cover the treatments. Another reason is that it almost certainly means the BPDer client will promptly quit therapy on hearing the diagnosis. For a more complete discussion of why this information is withheld from the client and their family, please see my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-official-im-getting-divorced.html#post811909.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> I really don't have the will, the drive to pursue a relationship with my wife any longer. I just want it to be over with. I don't think I can go through this next session acting as if I'm trying to repair this relationship any longer. I want to break free of these chains. I am pissed at myself for giving so much and never receiving anything much in return. I understand I have allowed this. No more!


:smthumbup::iagree::smthumbup: that's the right attitude. Now carry on!


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I forwarded the Schreiber articles to my step-son to read. I want to get his perspective on how he viewed the relationship his mother and I have/had.
I told him it would be painful to read certain sections, but I truly value his opinion...he is a well grounded individual. But, I do see where his last relationship ended due to his lack of interest or caring and want him to address any issues he may have so he doesn't end up with a faulty love life.
He is very much a free spirit and doesn't like any form of control in his life, as he is a Libertarian and actually swayed me to lose some of my controlling conservative views. This young man is very logical and he cornered me on a few of my beliefs where I had to surrender my thoughts because I couldn't argue with logic.

He has helped open my eyes to things I couldn't see otherwise.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I arranged to pick up my step-son yesterday in the evening and took him to the local watering hole. I told him I wanted to discuss the articles I forwarded to him from Shari Schreiber.
He said he did recall witnessing various actions/reactions from his mother that he knew wasn't quite normal, but he said that I always seemed to have things under control.
I may have told him a bit too much, but he was unaware to the extent his mother had used suicide as a manipulating tactic against me.
I told him I have my divorce paperwork all ready to go, I just have to inform the attorney and the process will be under way.
He asked if she sought treatment, that that could improve things between us where I would stay in the marriage. I told him I just don't see how that can also change her interest in seeing me happy. He thanked me for being upfront and honest with him. I told him that once I am through the divorce, I won't be in contact with his mother anymore. I have to break all ties with her and not allow her to continue manipulating me via phone/text or whatever other avenue she may try.
When we were finished talking, he hugged me and told me he loved me. I love this guy as if he were my own son and he could see that while growing up. I told him that he will always be my son, no matter what.

Yesterday morning I met my brother and his wife for breakfast and I was able to get out most everything that has transpired over the course of the last six months or so. They saw certain warning signs, but didn't feel it was their place to say anything to me about it. They gave me great support and offered up any help I may need during this process.
Today I spent most of the day with my wife. Yesterday, what little bit of time I did spend with her resulted in us just arguing. I think we were both short on sleep, and it is really wearing on my wife knowing I have told my brother about my situation. She feels like she can't come around any of my family now because in her view, I have painted her as an evil witch that raged due to the hormone treatments. I explained that I am not the type of guy to paint a one sided story so I can gain a cheerleading session. She truly attributes her rage towards me all on the testosterone. 
This evening she asked about me possibly moving back home. I told her I still didn't feel safe and we haven't come to any type of resolution on that yet. How am I supposed to all of a sudden trust her with my safety? She suggested I sleep in the other room and lock the door. I asked her how healthy of a relationship is that?
She then thinks I am blowing this whole rage thing out of proportion because it was all the hormone's fault.
I brought up a few of her rage fests from the past when she wasn't taking any type of hormone. I reminded her of one night when she couldn't sleep, she got pissed at me and decided it was my fault that she couldn't sleep and came into the bedroom and jumped on top of me as I was sleeping. She pinned me under the covers and I couldn't move. She ragingly was shaking my shoulders and saying all sorts of demeaning verbiage at me.
She then actually came to terms as to where our relationship is at the moment and acknowledged that we can't go back from where we are. There is no chance to repair the damage. We are through. She said she will be alone for the rest of her life. I did not console her. She was becoming angry and I asked her if we can stop talking about it at the moment and just go somewhere to get dinner. She agreed. While eating dinner. I explained to her that one of my biggest weaknesses is that I always want to fix everything in her life and I am just simply not capable of doing so. Until just recently, I wasn't aware how much I actually did this...think I was a fix it man to all of her problems. Basically everything that came out of her mouth was some sort of issue or problem. I, of course found myself coming up with solutions for her and each time I caught myself doing it, I would curse myself and point it out to her the fact I was doing it again. I can't count how many times I caught myself...I am getting more self aware and am actually catching myself before I even speak.
She didn't realize how much I did it either, but now we are both a bit shocked as to how bad it really was. I told her I am now going to look at it that she has to be an adult and figure out her own problems, because I simply am not capable of doing it.
Now that we got that out of the way, for Tuesdays upcoming session, we will probably end up discussing our end game, rather than any type of repairing of our relationship.
I know that even though at this current time she is somewhat accepting that we are through, she will once again project all of the problems on me and it is I that is bailing on the marriage, not that we both agreed we just don't work together as a happy married couple.

I feel just a little bit more free at the moment. Now, I need to determine when I will actually file, depending on if my wife will stay in treatment or not.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Indy, thanks for giving us another update. I'm glad to hear you have the support of your step-son, brother, and sister-in-law. It sounds like you now have all your ducks in a row.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> ..Basically everything that came out of her mouth was some sort of issue or problem. I, of course found myself coming up with solutions for her and each time I caught myself doing it, I would curse myself and point it out to her the fact I was doing it again. I can't count how many times I caught myself...I am getting more self aware and am actually catching myself before I even speak...


:lol: that would have been a great part of a romantic comedy movie script..too bad this is reality and not comedy..


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Wishing you the best IndyTMI! Keep moving forward and don't dwell on the past to much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## King Ding Dong (Feb 23, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> I suppose I can consider myself lucky for not becoming a homosexual or transvestite.


I am curious why you feel the need to hate on people different than you?


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

King Ding Dong said:


> I am curious why you feel the need to hate on people different than you?


Just because I don't want to live a different lifestyle doesn't mean I am hating on those lifestyles...they just aren't for me.

I'm not a hater. I know a few homosexuals and I treat them no differently than any other human being. They are still people, after all.

Where exactly did my post come off as a hater?


----------



## King Ding Dong (Feb 23, 2013)

I suppose it was the . Just came off that way to me. No big deal. I reckon "haters" is used to loosely. Also there seems the notion it is something you "become" or choose to be. Maybe some people do, I don't know. Doesn't seem to be supported by science, but I am no expert. 

By framing it as a lifestyle choice, it makes it easier to condemn or hate them. I don't understand it because I don't see how I could ever choose to be a homosexual. I am very into scouting and I am seeing a lot of this kind of talk right now and it is unfortunate to see it in such a fine and accepting organization. I am afraid that whatever the BSA does it is going to tear up the organization.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

King Ding Dong said:


> I suppose it was the . Just came off that way to me. No big deal. I reckon "haters" is used to loosely. Also there seems the notion it is something you "become" or choose to be. Maybe some people do, I don't know. Doesn't seem to be supported by science, but I am no expert.
> 
> By framing it as a lifestyle choice, it makes it easier to condemn or hate them. I don't understand it because I don't see how I could ever choose to be a homosexual. I am very into scouting and I am seeing a lot of this kind of talk right now and it is unfortunate to see it in such a fine and accepting organization. I am afraid that whatever the BSA does it is going to tear up the organization.


I see your point...

I suppose it is difficult for me, being a heterosexual to understand how a homosexual thinks.
I don't think we can swipe a wide brush and say that all homosexuals were 'born' that way. It would be highly presumptuous to think something as such. I am in the view that we can control what we are attracted to and what we are not. Much of this may be conditioned as we are being raised. Any influence in our childhood development may very well impact our adult lives. I am proof of that by way of my codependency. I didn't necessarily choose to be codependent, but something drew me towards it. Now that I am self aware of my problem, I am choosing not to be that way any longer. I believe this can also apply to homosexuals...but I am no expert and only form this as an opinion and not fact.


----------



## King Ding Dong (Feb 23, 2013)

Science is not perfect and never has all the answers, but it has served us pretty well so far. The "Pray the gay away" crowd, just gives religion a bad stain in my opinion. I don't see becoming a homosexual or a pedophile no matter how hard I prayed.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I decided to write my wife a letter this morning that I actually want to send to her. I would most certainly appreciate any critiquing, as I don't want to do this wrong. Please advise...

Mrs. IndyTMI,

First and foremost...I do still love you very much. You know this to be fact, whether you currently want to acknowledge it or not.
I know we are both hurting by what has been transpiring in our lives as of recent. I so wanted to fix what I thought was broken in our relationship. I so desperately wanted to see you happy. I wanted to be the perfect husband, but we both know that is impossible for anyone to achieve. No single human has achieved perfection...it is an impossible task. We both have inner-demons that affect our lives beyond what we can consciously control. I hurt by the facts of our reality. This wasn't supposed to turn out like this. Neither one of us sought after this outcome. This **** isn't fair to either one of us. Neither one of us are victims in this situation. We are both survivors in our own way. Don't they say that what doesn't break you makes you stronger? You have overcome so much in your life, you don't realize how strong you actually are. I see it...that is one of the things that drew me towards you in the beginning, was your self confidence in the way you carried out your daily life. Your snarky, witty sarcasm always kept me on edge during our first few years...I admired and respected you because you had a level of confidence in which I did not have..I call it being brave. You would say what was on your mind, even if it could possibly come back at you negatively. Your boldness attracted me to you, as I had little of my own.
I don't want to finger point any longer. I have loved you from the very start and we have built up such a strong friendship together, I don't want to fracture what we do have left. I want you to know that I am not abandoning you. I am right here for you...to support you in what ways I can. I don't want you to curl up into a corner and shut the rest of the world out...you deserve better than that for yourself. If you allow others to come into your world, there will always be a shoulder to rest your head on. Please don't push this away.
The belly dance lessons as well as your Pilates class are very important and they have certainly help build your self confidence and helped soothe your mind and body. Don't worry about not being able to afford these...they will be covered...rest assure. The same goes for counseling, if you so choose to continue to work on your weaknesses and face your demons. I know I am going to continue counseling for myself...as you know, I have issues that I am not sure I can change on my own. If I don't address them, I will remain broken forever. Life is too short to not appreciate the good things in Life. I am so proud with how we raised your son. He is such an awesome young man. I love him with all my heart as if he were my own. Not too many step-fathers can do that...I know I am special in that way. I appreciate him, so very much.
I know you said you didn't necessarily want to live in Indy any longer. I really don't know what you are planning, but I want you to know that I just can't turn my back on you and walk away from you so coldly. You must know by now that I genuinely have your welfare as my concern *and responsibility*. I understand the harsh reality of Indiana's court system as it pertains to divorce. We really have nothing to dispute over, as I am willing to forgo nearly everything and will most certainly store anything you wanted to keep that you couldn't find space for at your new place you find. I voluntarily want to provide you with support, as I know it will be difficult to make do with just what income you can earn. You will be provided for, so long as you also make effort to do well for yourself. Mrs. IndyTMI, please don't push me away with what I am offering...this is one way I can continue satisfying one of my weaknesses in a healthy manner...you will most certainly gain benefit from it while not being smothered by the rest of me.

Sincerely,
IndyTMI

I already see a few things to correct/edit/omit...what is in red will be removed.
I realize how codependent I must sound from this letter.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I couldn't wait any longer...I sent it with the corrections I had already noted. Now waiting for some type of response...


----------



## King Ding Dong (Feb 23, 2013)

Um it sounds to me like you offered to bankroll her for an indefinite period of time. This information could be used against you. I personally would never have put that in writing without seeking legal advise. 

I hope it all works out for you.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

King Ding Dong said:


> Um it sounds to me like you offered to bankroll her for an indefinite period of time. This information could be used against you. I personally would never have put that in writing without seeking legal advise.
> 
> I hope it all works out for you.


I already sought legal advice. In Indiana, this type of divorce does not constitute her to gain or deem her any form of alimony. She would have had to have quit her job in order for me to pursue mine, which is not the case. It's like a no fault insurance claim.
We have no debts and barley any assets worth anything.


----------



## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

IndyTMI said:


> I just got off the phone with my oldest brother, he is six years my senior. I had to talk to someone in my family I could confide to. There are four of us siblings and he is the only one I can relate with. He and I are very much alike. He has many of the same characteristics, like me. He acknowledges them as well. He was on his way to work, so I couldn't talk long. I am scheduled to meet him and his wife this Saturday so I can spend a good four hours dumping my hurt brain on him.
> He was telling me about his high school years. He somehow became the local Dear Abby for all of his friends. They would all bring their problems to him and he would provide them with solutions and guidance. His job function is being a troubleshooter for machinery at an automotive plant. He and I like to fix problems, certainly a trait we learned from our father.




I too was a born fixer....Eventually became an itinerent inventor. I really loved my career....

What did your love languages turn out to be?

My wife and I had a severly damaged relationship, and 5ll helped a LOT I know there is no cure all, but as I always say, it's not the book, it's the committment BOTH parties have......Like you I was deeply in love with my wife, and seemed to get nothing in return.....

My wife was also in a depression, and I felt nothing was bringing her out of it, and she too was having rages, never ending excuses, and contempt for me...

I woke up one day and said "I deserve better", I will not spend the rest of my life in a loveless. sexless marriage....

I actually printed the divorce laws of our state out, put them on her placemat, and walked out.....

That at least got her attention....After a few "knock down-drag outs", we bought the book.........

I'll wager it was me WANTING to do the 5LL that made the biggest impact on her....

The re-commitment we made to our marriage became a total transformation.....

The bombshell? She swears that till D-day she didn't think we had a problem.......She was so absorbed in her depression, she just didn't see it....

Now I stand on my head every night and magic unicorns fly out my ......

Wrong story.....Now we don't fight...there is passion in our loving, and we ACT like we love each other.....

I get pissed, she gets pissed, we get over it........no more F bombs in the face, no more driving around because I just didn't want to go home....

Why don't you take a weekend *together* and re-read the book...

I can see you are an honest. decent. loving man...I know and you know you deserve better......

So does your wife.....It is a blessing that she seems willing to work on it..........

My wife was never into anal, no aversion, just a size difference that made it impossible.......

She loved it when I would have her lie on her belly, spread slightly and totally relaxed......I would slide one hand under her. palm up, and massage her vagina, while using the other to gently rub oil all over her cute little a$$. 

I would rub and massage, and you get the picture...I would slowly close in on her rosebud, and by the time she had started to get off, my finger had penetrated her analy.....

I think she might have even liked it..........A little...

I hope you and your wife ge back the marriage you deserve

Just an old guy trying to help folks out and bring a little love into damaged marriages.....:smthumbup:


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Indy, I agree with King that you should avoid putting any financial commitments in writing until your attorney has advised you on it. If your W has strong BPD traits as you suspect, she almost certainly will not appreciate any sacrifices you make (beyond 2 or 3 days, if that). Instead, she will be convinced she is entitled to it and will grow resentful that you've not done more. As I said earlier, with BPDers it's always "What have you done for me lately?" 

If that statement seems too harsh, take time to consider how appreciative she now is for the years of sacrifices that you've already done for her. I therefore suggest you make the minimum commitment necessary during the divorce proceeding. Remember, whatever compromise you agree to -- no matter how generous -- almost certainly will be perceived by her as her legal entitlement, something you "owed" to her. You can always be more generous later in the unlikely event she doesn't start portraying you -- all over town -- as a monster who abused and abandoned her. 

Moreover, you can always give gifts directly to your step-son (e.g., video games, clothing, car, tuition). In that way, he knows you are helping to take care of him -- a perception that can easily be lost if you give her the money and rely on her to let him know that you are trying to help him.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Woodchuck,

It doesn't matter how many times my wife reads any book that gives her the information to change. It is a couple day fix and she bounces back to not remembering anything she read and I become a just another object in the room.
My love language is physical touch and the second is a draw between words of affirmation and quality time.My wife couldn't really identify with any of those, she said hers was security.

She called me after she received the email and wanted to talk, so we met for dinner.
She starts off a bit confused by the email...she said it sounds so final.
I almost thought she was going to make a scene, but I was luckily able to keep her anger at bay...sort of.
She goes into saying that I am hiding a bunch more information from her. I explained that the only things I have done was retained an attorney right after our big blowup, as I wanted to seek legal advice on what all of my options were.
She then, as expected, projected all of the failings in our marriage on me. She claims I am the one giving up on the marriage. I am the cause of all of our problems.
I asked her to calm down and to please not push me away. I told her that she would regret pushing me out of her life. 
She found out by her son that I also sent the email to him, but he didn't read it yet, because he is having a difficult time dealing with his sick father, whom is about to die from self infliction throughout his years. The guy knows he's about to die and has contemplated suicide to get it over with. What a **** sandwich some people get handed to them. I feel for my step-son and didn't want to put any more tension in his life, but I can't put my life on hold to make everyone else's rosy.
My wife was complaining about her phone not working properly...it keeps dropping calls and she has difficulty working the touch screen. I told her I wanted to get her a new phone, so we went after dinner and picked her up a nice smart phone with sliding keyboard. She can work the physical keyboard a lot easier than the touch screen. I got her every accessory she wanted/needed and she genuinely thanked me for getting it. It really felt good to hear that, as it is something that I rarely ever hear for my efforts. She said I was her fix-it man and this was an appropriate fix, because it was something technical, as related to my job and how I use to solve her problems when we worked together.

She wanted to put her son at ease, so she sent him a text using her new phone and was able to type much easier/faster than the other...she likes it, except the little droid icons look different and she said they were ugly. 
She told him that the email I sent sounded so final, but we are going to counseling tomorrow to try to work things out. She made it sound as if there was still hope to repair our marriage...I just don't see it happening. I don't want it any longer. I just don't see how anything can get through to her. She simply doesn't have it in her to be concerned with my needs. I'm not about to set myself for disappointment again. I've waken up to the madness. I am done supporting the definition of insanity. That road has been traveled too many times for my tolerance.

Uptown,

While I agree with what you stated, my wife will not fight me on this. I know this with confidence. She won't seek out to retain her own attorney. She knows the law regarding divorce in Indiana. She knows what I am offering is more than reasonable, considering the circumstances. I will be sure to not have some of what I stated in the email in the divorce decree. As you stated, I can offer those up after the fact. There really is no need for my continued support for my step-son financially. He is now getting by on his own and excelling well at his job.

She said I was so eager to get divorced. She said I've been wanting this for a long time. I told her that simply wasn't the case, because it has been I, that has sought out advice on how to rekindle the flame. I'm the one who pushed for counseling. I'm the one who researched online, bought books and tried what I could to get us back to happier times. I did all of those while she resisted, pushed back and fought it the whole way. It is like she even forgot what realizations we came to last evening about us not being able to work it out...that we are done.
That escaped her altogether. Now it is just me wanting out.
The letter reinforced what we discussed last evening and then she turns it around like I hit her from left field with this idea of mine that we are finished.
She is really good at projection...too bad there isn't a profession she could do that for a living. Oh, wait...there is, but she would have to be an elected official...lol

I was not too surprised, but even during our dinner, she flipped back and forth from accepting the email, to rejecting it and thinking we still have a chance. Her mind is jumping all over the place. I'm struggling with my emotions in front of her, but I held it together and didn't break down.
She first said she isn't going to counseling now, since there is no hope, then later said we should go to work things out.
This is the same flip-flopping she did with her hormone treatments. Last I heard was she wasn't going to take anything any longer because it has caused her some continual discharge and she thought she was all done with all of that female crap.
So much for wanting to work on raising her desire for me.
No matter what, I can't win with this woman.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Trenton, thanks for that...I know I have this codependency thing I need to continue to work on.

She does not satisfy that particular piece of code because she is capable of getting a job to support herself. She had one a few months ago, but quit because she felt it was below her. 

I forgot to mention that I elaborated with her about my counsel with the attorney and that the attorney recommended I hold off on divorce so my wife can continue to utilize my insurance while she seeks treatment. If my wife refuses to seek treatment, I will proceed with the filing.


The one thing that has become ever so apparent with my wife is that she can literally say anything she wants, but doesn't want to be held accountable for any of it. And yet, no matter what I say, she does her damnedest to insure I am held accountable for everything I say.

I reminded her of some of the things she said last evening about us being finished, but she just somehow avoids acknowledging any of it and tried to sweep it under the rug.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

She also tried to tell me that I haven't wanted to have sex with her for some time...that I was not attracted to her any longer.

Where the f*ck does she get this sh*t from? What the h3ll have I been working towards all these months? This woman just doesn't get it. I think I will buy her a brush and a can of black paint so she can make me physically look like she is painting me in her mind.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

IndyTMI said:


> While I agree with what you stated, my wife will not fight me on this. I know this with confidence.


No, you don't know that for sure. If she is as emotionally unstable as you've described -- i.e., has strong BPD traits -- you know NOTHING of how she will behave when she actually gets the legal notice that you've filed for divorce.


> She won't seek out to retain her own attorney. She knows the law regarding divorce in Indiana. She knows what I am offering is more than reasonable, considering the circumstances.


If she is a BPDer, what she knows today has no bearing on what she will "know" next week. With BPDers, their reality is whatever intense feeling they are feeling at the moment. Instead of intellectually challenging those intense feelings, they accept them as self-evident facts. 

Hence, while I believe it is generous for you to remain married so as to keep her on your insurance, I believe that paying her therapy bills out of your own pocket would be a small price to pay to extract yourself from this toxic marriage. 

I say this because, for 15 years, I pursued the course you are now on -- paying the 50% copayment on my W's weekly therapy bills with six different psychologists. I spent a small fortune and it didn't even make a small dent in her behavior. Unless a BPDer badly wants the therapy for herself, she likely will only play mind games with the therapist -- at your expense. 

Further, even if the very unlikely event she does work hard, it will be years before you see a substantial improvement in her behavior. I would have been much better off paying 100% of the bills (instead of 50%) and breaking free of the marriage.

That said, I nonetheless understand how you must feel -- not wanting to leave any stone unturned in trying to help her. That's the way we codependents think because our own needs and feelings always take last place in our priorities. Hence, although I am encouraging you to walk away now, I really doubt I would follow my own advice if I were in your shoes.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I slept on it and a few more things have come to me.
At this very moment, my wife IS very confused. Why you ask? It's because throughout our relationship, my wife has used our marriage as a manipulating point with me. I professed my unconditional love to her and she used that to her advantage when she felt it was necessary to get me to comply with her demands.
Being the beta ***** I was, I would cry, beg and plead with her to stay...we can work this out. I will be a good little subservient husband again...just don't leave, please...you are all I have.

Who has/had abandonment issues 

Now that I am standing my ground, she has tried multiple times to say we are finished, and since she is seeing that I am not falling for her manipulation any longer, she's in a world of not knowing how to get things under control again. She is out of her manipulating comfort zone.

Parting last night, she was under the impression that we still have a chance to work this out. This morning I get a text, "I Love you IndyTMI "

Did this finally wake her up? Possibly, but from her track record, it'll be a few days or maybe even a week, then it falls away again.

This really sucks. On one hand, I love my wife and have wanted to build a more satisfying relationship with her and this may have very well been the thing to kick her britches into action, but the other is that there are still the rage issues, along with her suicidal threats. Do I continue down the path of upset, medication, depression, lack of desire...the whole circle of junk that clogs up a healthy marriage? I really am tired of being her private nurse and 'pick me up' motivator person...I can't do it any longer.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Thank you Uptown...I truly appreciate your honesty and I also agree with your post...the insurance would just be another leash...tying me to her.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

You need to practice detaching from her.

No more buying phones. No more fixing. She is a big girl and responsible for her own life. She needs to fully understand that. Now. 

*Detach*.


----------



## Speed (Dec 9, 2011)

I skimmed the posts so I may be rehashing here.. but has anyone suggested divorcing her and then consider dating? It seems that you two are in this limbo and nothing is really happening. Every time you feel that you are making a slight move forward, she gets pi$$ed, blames everything on you and you two go right back to where you were.

You obviously love her very much or you would have been gone a long time ago. Maybe if you divorce her you two can attempt to really let go of the past and move forward. If not, at least you will be free to move on.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

While that sounds like an option, my wife would certainly feel that I wouldn't want to date her afterwards...which she is probably right. Her low self image really gets her in the dumps.
I probably wouldn't want to date her, knowing there are way more compatible women out there for me. Plus, compound the fact that she still rages and just doesn't have my happiness as any sort of priority.

She doesn't think she will ever hook up with anyone else again. 
She did mention last night that she wanted to see if she can go to a plastic surgeon to determine if she has breathing blockage in her nose, so she could possibly get a rhinoplasty to correct a bump in her nose that she has been very self-conscious of since her teens. She said if she was going to lose insurance, she might as well take advantage of it while she has it...I agreed with her.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Counseling tonight went fairly well. We were originally supposed to setup ground rules for trying to reestablish and rebuild our relationship. Instead, we both discussed trauma from our childhoods and how it is affecting us in our adult lives. We realize that each of our issues contribute negatively to us as a couple.

We were advised to make a more definitive separation, one by not seeing or texting each other on a daily basis. I need to force myself to refrain from responding immediately whenever she texts me. 

We ate dinner afterwards and discussed some of our past a bit more. My wife was reluctant to tell me, but she opened up and told me about some of her past relationships. Come to find out, she had an affair in her first marriage. She said she started it because her husband at the time was never around. He would get his paycheck and then go drink and gamble it away. She said it went on for over 4 years. She said she worked in the very same office as the guy's wife, which made her feel weird, but not enough to not do it. She said that even after she was divorced and moved to Indy, she continued a long distant relationship where she would drive over to Ohio every weekend to spend time with this guy. She stated that while she was in his room, his wife was knocking on his door...demanding she leave. She said she didn't care what his wife thought. She was getting some form of fulfillment out of it...I don't understand it. 
She said he finally ended it with his wife and continued to see her when she would drive over. She said she knew he was with other women during the week, but she didn't care, just so long as she had her needs fulfilled while visiting. She said that he had planned a romantic trip out of town to which she was really looking forward to. He never did call her to arrange to pick her up or anything. She called him multiple times, but he would not pick up the phone. She was tempted to drive over to confront him, but said she didn't want to, because she knew she would be just another one of his women he dumped. She didn't want to be that woman knocking on the door, knowing he is with another woman. She said she didn't care that he was with other women, just so long as she had her time while visiting. 
She was very comfortable with this long distant relationship, as the distance itself made her not feel vulnerable.

She said that when we hooked up, she wasn't comfortable with us being together all of the time. She wasn't in her comfort zone. She felt smothered from the very start. It wasn't because that was what I was doing to her. She had abandonment issues that caused her to be wary of closeness. She avoided it in the past because her father completely destroyed any sense of trust and commitment for her. She didn't fully open up to me...I didn't have her full heart. I was metered with what she would give me, both physically and emotionally. She did this out of fear of getting hurt again. Her fears have caused me so much pain...I don't know how exactly to process this.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

IndyTMI said:


> She said that when we hooked up, she wasn't comfortable with us being together all of the time. ...She felt smothered from the very start. It wasn't because that was what I was doing to her. She had abandonment issues that caused her to be wary of closeness.


As I understand it, Indy, the suffocating feeling associated with closeness is not caused by the _abandonment_ fear but, rather, the _engulfment_ fear. Because a BPDer has only a fragile weak self image, she feels like she is being smothered by your strong personality during intimate evenings or great weekends spent together. Hence, although a BPDer craves intimacy, she cannot tolerate it for very long. 

The result is that she will create arguments out of thin air so as to push you away. Yet, as you back off to give her breathing space, you unavoidably will eventually trigger her abandonment fear. The problem of trying to live with a BPDer, then, is that both of her two fears lie on the very SAME spectrum. 

This means that, as you back away from triggering one fear, you cannot avoid drawing closer to triggering her other fear. Such relationships therefore are a lose-lose situation for both of you. I discussed this conundrum earlier in my post in Maybe's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Thanks Uptown, I'll be sure to read through that thread as time permits today.

I did want to note one other thing. When the counselor was speaking with us about are current plan of action, she asked that we each use this time for self reflection and think about what has transpired during our marriage. She asked that neither one of us take action, like filing for divorce, and particularly addressed my wife and asked that she didn't file for divorce herself.

My wife clearly stated that she wouldn't get an attorney regardless, as we have nothing to fight over. She knows from the letter I wrote her that I am not here to dispute over assets. She said she would do like she did with her last divorce -- they did the cheapo route and paid something like $125 and it was done. She said she would just go along with what my attorney drew up. This is one thing she has said that I truly believe her.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I read the thread instead of focusing on my work. Thanks for referencing it, as I don't want to make another post in a year from now providing an update about how I am still miserable dealing with my wife and her BPD traits.

I am going to break free of these chains.

When we were in counseling this past Tuesday, I had mentioned that I purchased the four book bundle from Melody Beattie. The counselor said her favorite was 'Beyond Codependency' and hoped it was part of that bundle. I told her it certainly Is. She said that she feels confident that I can overcome much of my own issues, as she said I have a great understanding of myself and seem to be able to identify when I am showing signs of codependency. She said being self aware was a great start. I think I will also buy 'Stop Walking on Eggshells' book as well as 'I Hate You, Don't Leave Me'

I found a couple of songs that fit...

http://youtu.be/4wmgBG0_lZk

http://vimeo.com/52451716

I sent my wife a text message and told her I was going to find an apartment because I need to get that one worry off of my back. She is now looking...she may be the one to actually get it, as she knows I am missing my two cats and she hates that rental house anyway. Slowly getting things in place for us to remain apart.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Indy, if you acquire another book, my suggestion would be _Splitting: Protecting Yourself when Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist._ I remain concerned that you are going to see behavior you never imagined your W is capable of. At the end of my 15 year marriage, for example, my exW did a number of things that were simply unimaginable to me -- one of which was having me thrown into jail.

P.S. -- very appropriate songs! My favorites:


 CELINE DION I REMEMBER L.A. - YouTube,
Craig David - I'm Walking Away (lyrics) - YouTube and
John Mayer - Heartbreak Warfare - YouTube.


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Uptown said:


> Indy, if you acquire another book, my suggestion would be _Splitting: Protecting Yourself when Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist._ I remain concerned that you are going to see behavior you never imagined your W is capable of. At the end of my 15 year marriage, for example, my exW did a number of things that were simply unimaginable to me -- one of which was having me thrown into jail.
> 
> P.S. -- very appropriate songs! My favorites:
> 
> ...


IndyTMI ...I agree with Uptown there is a reason for the saying H***l hath no fury, like a women scorned. Some people can be very vindictive when crossed....and you have already seen her rage. Be careful and be safe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Uptown,

I'm curious...if you don't mind me asking, what level of contact/communication do you now have with your ex, if any at all?


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

IndyTMI said:


> Uptown, ...what level of contact/communication do you now have with your ex, if any at all?


I am still sending her alimony checks but, otherwise, we have no contact. After having me jailed on a bogus charge and then getting a R/O to keep me out of my own home for 18 months, she still wanted to remain friends after the divorce. 

So, for another 8 months, I accepted her phone calls every 2 or 3 weeks. But I never called her. At the end of that period, I told her we could never be friends and asked that she stop calling. I explained that she is incapable of being my friend because she is incapable of trusting me -- and trust is the foundation on which all friendships and close LTRs must be based. 

We therefore did not communicate for another two years -- until we saw each other at my grandson's wedding. I gave her a hug and sat with her and her two sisters. She was thrilled having me there and I was very happy to see her. As before, she called me two weeks later and asked if we could now be friends. 

I again asked her "Do you still believe I am a violent man who is physically abusive and who makes up lies about once a week?" She said, "Oh, yes, I still believe that." I then explained, as I had done two years before, that we could never be friends because she was incapable of ever trusting me. That was over two years ago.

This is so sad because she was my very first love, whom I had started dating when I was 19 and she was 17. Of course, I still love her to this day. But I learned the hard way that, when a person is incapable of trusting you, you can never trust her -- because she can turn on you at any time -- and she eventually will.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Thanks for sharing, Uptown. That gives me something to base my continued relationship on after the divorce is final. Your story reinforces what I have read from Shari Schreiber's articles.
I will take extra caution once she receives the certified letter, notifying her of the divorce.
I'm not sure exactly when I will make the call to have it sent, but hopefully soon. It would be nice if during our counseling session that we determine we are no longer a compatible couple and will just make each other's lives miserable if we stay together. She has already agreed at least once before, but she seems to forget what we have come to terms with. It's like she forgets about what she said, about like forgetting what she read in The Five Love Languages and His Needs, Her Heeds. It just escapes her.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I know that my comments about affairs in the past must have really drove my wife into moral shame.
Depending on what was on TV, I am vocal while watching various programs and express my opinion about what I feel is right vs wrong. I can't count the number of times I have spoken badly about affairs and what I think of those that do it. She must have felt completely demoralized by my words. But, it is her shame for what she had done in the past. No wonder she never wanted to tell me, but since we have been opening up about our past, she decided to get it out of her system and let me know about her inappropriate behavior. But, the odd thing is...she didn't regret her actions at the time. Heck, I'm not sure if she feels it now. Probably not.

Like you, Uptown, I still love my wife very much, but something has broken me free of yearning for her love any longer. I am not hurting because she doesn't have any passion for me. I think I have already accepted that she can never love me as I need to feel loved. I think I am getting over her faster than I thought.

Listening to those songs you posted did touch me a little. The second one actually brought tears to my eyes. After spending time with her since we have been separated, I can now look at her differently. Almost as if I see her like a child, where her mind is at sometimes. I still care for her deeply and want to see what's best for her, but I just can't fall into the trap of being her caregiver any longer.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

She calls me while I am at work and accuses me of not communicating enough with her. She hangs up, calls me back and curses me and states that it is becoming clear that I don't want to work things out and hangs up again. I sent her a text and ask her not to call, to please text, as I am working on resolving a network issue.
She sends me a text 'fu'
I then texted her and ask what was I not communicating, but she didn't respond.
She then sends a text that says she'll never call me again, how about that! Then says not to touch any of her stuff while she is gone over to Ohio for the night.

I sent her a text earlier this morning indicating that I would probably spend the night there at the house while she was away.

I have no clue as to what lack of communication she is even talking about...perhaps she looked at the bank records. Who knows, but I was thinking to myself...yea, the letter I wrote her was a pretty clear indicator that I didn't want to work things out any longer. It is her counselor that keeps placing these last final attempts to repair the marriage. 
I'm now going to the bank to transfer the rest of my funds to my individual account...what is left of it.
I think from now on, if I am going to see her in person, I will have someone else with me...she is starting to get upset way more easily.
If that's not possible, I will at least have my phone video recording.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I remotely logged into my PC at home at that is it...she checked bank records and is pissed.


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

IndyTMI....its time to start working with an attorney and limiting your interections with her. You should always have a third party with you when your together. Your getting to the point where you will find out how vindictive she can be. I would be careful telling her your where abouts when you not together...you might get a surprise visit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

It just really pains me to see her acting so irrational. I just called her counselor and left a message that I was concerned about her because she simply does not want to work any longer and I am in fear of her willing to actually carry out a suicide attempt because life without me will be too difficult...in her perception, anyways.

My friend at work recommended I go ahead and use this day while she is out of town to move out anything I value out of the house. I am going to get temporary storage to store my pc, bikes, tools etc...so I will have just a little more piece of mind.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

You're just starting to find out that you can't have your feet on both sides of the fence. Either take her back or let her go. This stringing her along thing you're doing is extremely passive agressive and wrong on many levels. She's reacting the way she is reacting because you're keeping her in limbo. You need to get to a place where you can not feel sorry for her. A place where you can allow her to process her feelings on her own without any hope that you'll still be there to fix it. At the moment you're not allowing her that. You keep sticking around giving her false hope, which is a very cruel thing to do.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> You're just starting to find out that you can't have your feet on both sides of the fence. Either take her back or let her go. This stringing her along thing you're doing is extremely passive agressive and wrong on many levels. She's reacting the way she is reacting because you're keeping her in limbo. You need to get to a place where you can not feel sorry for her. A place where you can allow her to process her feelings on her own without any hope that you'll still be there to fix it. At the moment you're not allowing her that. You keep sticking around giving her false hope, which is a very cruel thing to do.


I understand what you're saying and I agree. I feel it is her counselor that keeps trying to delay the inevitable, but at this point, I am done. I am moving my stuff out and getting a storage unit.


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Ok broken record here...again be careful and have someone with you if you think there is a chance you could run into her. You are getting to the anger phase of a break up and this is when you are most vulnerable to domestic violence.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I had been texting back and forth with her son as they were traveling to OH and while I was moving my stuff out of the house. He was giving supportive comments and asked if I have been honest with his mom because she was confused as to what I really wanted. I explained that I meant every word in the letter...ultimately, I am leaving her, but am not abandoning her. The counselor keeps on trying to prolong the inevitable and I'm stuck in limbo without getting any resolve. He said that we both need to focus on ourselves for a while...I agreed. 
He said he doesn't blame me and also that she was not speaking ill of me.
He said that she sounds different to him than she does to me...likely because she is adding things to the story to make her look like she's been trying as well.
He said that she opened up to him and told him what happened during her rage moments. He thought that was a huge barrier to overcome for her to admit that to him. But, I'm sure she attributes it all on the hormones.
Anyhow, I got all of my tools, kayaks, dirt bikes...everything I cared about. I still need to grab my PC...I think I'll just take that to work and put it at my desk there so it won't be out in the freezing cold.
My neighbor helped me move the heavy stuff. I still have a few miscellaneous items to grab, but I feel so relieved to have moved all of my valuables out of the house.

I still don't know if she is going to stay there at the house or if she wants to be the one to move into the rental. I guess that will be a conversation to be held when she gets back. Once she does return, she will notice all of my stuff is gone. I hope that will be a more apparent indicator that I am done. Simply telling her doesn't seem to sink in. I guess she only believes it if she sees it. 

I know I still have rough times ahead and if/when she moves, if I am part of helping her move, I will be sure to have a friend help me the whole time so she will be less likely to do anything physically against me.

I want to thank everyone for their continued support as well as pointing out where I am messing up. They didn't teach this stuff in high school...lol


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Indy, thanks for the continued updates. It sounds like you're handling things very well. Moving your valuables out of the house was a wise decision. And having a third party present also is wise. If you cannot find a friend who is available for a certain time, hiring an adult stranger is worth considering. Indeed, BPDers tend to be more reluctant to rage around total strangers than they are to rage around people they know, e.g., your friends. Adding a complete stranger to the mix adds great uncertainty, because the BPDer doesn't know how that person will react or what relationship you have with him.


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Your doing great Indy! You have a great future ahead of you its time to start looking forward to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I just now finished getting all of my valuables moved to temporary storage. My back is killing me. My neighbor helped me move my 500lb safe. Good thing I had an appliance dolly. My cash I had in the safe is gone...around $1000. Tomorrow morning I have to go back to the credit union to transfer my paycheck deposit over to my new account. It goes in tonight, so I'll certainly get to it before she does. I left enough in our mutual account for her to pay bills, and be able to get groceries and such.
I guess I will call the attorney tomorrow and give them the go ahead. I still haven't spoken to anyone in my family except for my brother. Perhaps I'll spring it on them during my Easter visit. I know my mother and my other brother will want to be a cheerleading crowd...trying to cheer me up by telling me she was no good for me and such. I just don't care to hear any of that and will definitely make them aware that I don't want to hear their comments. They won't understand the fact that I still love her and care about her welfare. 
I decided to take my Alienware PC to work and hook it up at my desk. Gives me reason to stay after work and take my aggression out on other gamers. I like to play Battlefield 3. I haven't played it forever because I focused all of my time around my wife and her activities...no more, damn it. 
I'm catching a shower and going to bed. I'm beat.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

My wife was not too happy when she returned to find the majority of my stuff gone. Her son stayed with her for a few hours and tried to talk some reasoning into her, she must have calmed down with his support. She had not communicated with me since they had returned, other than to let me know they were back in town.

Yesterday, I went to a 2nd Amendment protest downtown. There was some ding dong group called 'Million Moms against Guns' or something like that downtown protesting against gun violence and demanding more gun laws.

A group of us pro-gun individualists all grouped together and counter protested. It was fun.  We outnumbered them and it was quite ironic where they were protesting. They were standing on the east side of the statehouse in front of three statues, two of which were holding rifles which were used to fight off the rebellion during the Civil War. I was late to the protest, so as I was walking toward the statehouse with my Mosin Nagant M59 strapped over my shoulder, I shouted at them of that irony. They had nothing to shout back...it was awesome!

OK, back to my troubles...lol

I sent the wife a text message that I would be coming by the house after the protest and grabbing something to eat. When I was finished, I decided to go ahead and buy her a tablet. I ended up getting her an Asus Transformer tablet with attachable keyboard. It is really nice and I actually like it better than the new iPad I have been issued from work.

When I arrived, she was very upset, a bit angry to be exact. I tried to have a simple discussion, but I was all black to her. I told her I was leaving, as I would not tolerate her not allowing us to communicate in an amicable manner. She calmed down and I remained there. We hashed through some stuff, but she continued to use words like 'always' or 'never'. I had to defend myself several times, but I was able to at least have some reasoning with her. 

She said she went to the spiritual healer again and has finally come to some realizations about herself and is actually now on the path to fix our marriage, but said now I am on the path to end it. She said that if I were to go to the spiritual healer as well that I too would see the light and begin to heal. First off, I'm Atheist, so I don't see how a spiritual healer would do me any good.

She also said that she didn't think our current counselor is helping matters, that we need to find another one to go to. I agreed with the counseling change and suggested she find one for us to go to and we will continue to work with one to find where exactly our issues and hangups are. I told her I had read where counselors too can build up a codependency with their clients and it is likely that may be the case with our current one.

I told her that we do need to get our living arrangements figured out because I have been imposing on my friends for too long and one of us needs to go ahead and get a place. She agreed and we are supposed to look at some later today.

She said I have been hiding stuff from her from the beginning. I explained that everything I did was under the advisement of my attorney and because I was in a vulnerable position, I took it as being sound for someone in my position. I had to protect myself. She said she knows that most women would do what I was protecting myself from, but she is not most other women and she wouldn't do anything like that. I pointed out that when I arrived at the house on Thursday and noticed all of my funds were missing from the safe, I panicked and did what I thought best to protect whatever else I valued. She did see my side of it on that, unbelievably.

She wanted to know how I really felt about everything, so I told her that I meant every word I wrote in that email. She pointed out a few times that she was on the path of recovery and I was giving up and wanted out. I think it's a little too late for her to now wanting to join the team...the game is over and no one wants to hang around after the lights have been turned off.

She came to some realizations that she didn't want to be married to me any longer, but would later contradict her own words by saying 'if we work this out and stay together'. The distance between us is continuing to grow.

I showed her a few things on the tablet, synced up her phone and made sure she knew how to do all of the basics. She did seem appreciative. I told her I could also get her a bluetooth mouse if she thought the touchpad was too difficult to navigate. That's what I liked about that tablet, it lets you use the touch screen or touchpad...pretty cool. It makes it more like a laptop...something she is more familiar with. I am such a fixer, but technology stuff is easy for me and she has been fairly receptive to it. Most everything else I have tried to fix in our relationship always seems to turn for the worse. 

We wrapped up the evening that she would text me when she wanted me to come in and look at apartments together. I told her that I did still love her as I was leaving and she asked that I not say that any longer. I was smiling inside.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Indy, thanks so much for giving us another update. It sure sounds like you're making continued progress in withdrawing at a slow but steady rate. Your removing your valuables went much better than I had expected. It seems you were able to successfully defuse much of it by giving her the tablet. 

If so, I believe you got a lot of bang for your buck -- a cheap price to pay in order to help ease her out of your day-to-day life. Of course, it won't buy you a thing a week from now because there will be no lasting appreciation. But it did seem to calm things down for your main "move out" day.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

> .. I am such a fixer, but technology stuff is easy for me and she has been fairly receptive to it. Most everything else I have tried to fix in our relationship always seems to turn for the worse..


Well, I've never seen MacGyver successfully solved "Sexless Marriage" problems.. but he's very good at fixing anything from cars, tractors, boats and plumbings  we all have our limits, Mr. Indy


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Yesterday we spent the day looking at apartments. At first we were looking at budget ones, but I just didn't feel comfortable placing her in some run down apartment building where she would have to deal with noise and poor living conditions. Towards the end of the day, we were looking at nicer ones that had carports and/or personal garages...she doesn't want door dings on the T/A.
We found a few nice ones that had immediate availability, but needed to check to make sure I could afford them. We went over my budget and saw I can comfortably afford the nicer ones, so she is getting together with an apartment hunter service today to find the right one for her.
She's looking for a short term 3 month lease, I am pushing for at least a 6 month one...She thinks we can solve all of our problems within 3 months and get back together. I told her that we are on too different levels on what we want and are willing to provide to each other and I didn't see how counseling can change that. 
She knows she has to find work, her motivation has changes since we separated. 
She still wants me to go to this spiritual healer gal to do some mumbo jumbo on me and make me see the light. I told her I was open to it and to go ahead and schedule me an appointment. I'll keep an open mind about it.
We're supposed to have our group session tomorrow, but my wife doesn't think the counselor is helping us in that regard, so she suggested maybe I just go to talk more about my own problems. I'm fine with that. She thinks another counselor can do more good, so she is going to find a new one for us to try.
Another thing she is concerned with is that I am going to seek attention/affection elsewhere while we are apart. She asked how I can now go without when just a month ago I was raising my concerns about not getting enough. I explained that the majority of our time together I had taken matters into my own hands, literally...lol, and that I had to go without before I met her, so it is something I can manage. What is difficult to manage is if she is in my daily life, supposed to be a mutually satisfying relationship and there is lack of interest on her part.
She is afraid I will be seeking to get my needs met elsewhere. She doesn't want me to bring another woman into our bed while she is living away in an apartment. I reassured her I would not bring another woman into our home. 
She found the bottle of lube was missing from my night stand and asked if I was having some fling out at my friend's house. I told her I certainly was...with my left hand.  She said she tried using her rabbit I bought her, but it was depressing and hasn't enjoyed it like she did with me. She told me yesterday that I was the first man to make her orgasm and it happened the first time we had sex. She knew I was different then but said I changed throughout the relationship. I'm sure her mirror told her the same about herself.
I think from the texting today, I have convinced her to consider 6 months. She said as long as I was being open and honest with her, she has no problem complying with some of my suggestions.


----------



## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

Are you going to be paying for the apartment that she lives in?


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

CanadianGuy said:


> Are you going to be paying for the apartment that she lives in?


Yes...for the time being anyways. She knows she needs to get a job to maintain her own standard of living, but I will be covering the apartment while we are going through the counseling sessions. At least for 6 months.
She said she was going to seek advice from her spiritual healer for guidance on what type of work she should get into. 

Here is the thing for me...over the weekend I have told her that I meant every word I wrote in the letter. She seems to acknowledge this and sees that she is now the one wanting to repair our damage and it is I that now wants to end it. 
She thinks through spiritual healing and counseling I will come around. I told her I was open to it, but didn't see how counseling can fix our major differences. I am definitely not trying to lead her on, but now as I see it, it will take a few counseling sessions for her to wake up to her own rejection of reality to see we truly can't be together any longer.
Even once we divorce, yea, I plan on assisting her financially, even though there won't be any legal obligation to do so.


----------



## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

Forgive me if I'm way off base here. 

Part of your struggle it would seem to me and as you have expressed is that she has difficulty taking responsibility for her contribution to the marriage. Sex has been a big one. 

It is very nice of you to cover the apartment cost for 6 months but it is not letting her take responsibility/ consequences for her choices. 

It is almost like the death of a marriage by a thousand cuts. You bought her a tablet, cell phone and now your paying for an apartment. hmmmm. Just till you go through counseling. She would get more out of counseling and indeed life experience if she had to stand on her own two feet. 

I recommend a shorter time line. I suggest you do some soul searching. You are not leaving her out on a limb you are taking responsibility for your life and perhaps give her the gift of letting go and letting her take responsibility for hers. If you are always there to rescue her she will experience all she has experienced in the past with you. At the very most she should pay for half of the rent for 2 months after that she is on her own.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

You are so correct. This is a continued issue of my caregiving. I really have a difficult time letting go of what I feel obligated to do for her. I guess I have a self conscience issue where I don't want to be perceived as some cold-hearted a$$. Giving her the opportunity to stand on her own two feet is what I really want, but understand I'm doing the opposite with my actions. It's an internal struggle I am having with myself. 
To me, it is just another example of why we as a couple can't have a healthy relationship. I am too eager to be there even when I am not needed and she is so readily willing to accept it.

I realize I must fix this with myself or any future relationships could lead down the same path.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

CanadianGuy said:


> Forgive me if I'm way off base here.
> 
> Part of your struggle it would seem to me and as you have expressed is that she has difficulty taking responsibility for her contribution to the marriage. Sex has been a big one.
> 
> ...


Yup, exactly. But he can't help himself. It's like a sickness or something.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Yup, exactly. But he can't help himself. It's like a *sickness* or something.


I am aware...therapy is what I need. 

I'm reading Melody Beattie's books on breaking codependency, I just haven't got through it all yet or even been able to address any of my issues yet.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

So, the wife sends me a text that says she found the apartment she wanted.
It was one of the ones I went with her on Sunday to look at. It ends up, they have some available right away and she plans on getting it tomorrow. I actually have to co-sign since she currently doesn't have a job. 
The young, lazy gal working on Sunday didn't want to show us any, as her shift was about up and was being lame.
I forgot my wife had a counseling session today. She said it went very well. She had asked the counselor about me wanting her to get at least a six month lease and the counselor was able to reason with her to where it made sense to her as well.
My wife was in awesomely great spirits today. She told me that even if we didn't work things out, she is in a much better place now and was actually a bit excited to get her own place.  She even said that she doesn't think I'll need to pay for all of it, as she plans on getting a job very soon and wants to pay at least half. 
We were looking for a quite place to have dinner, so we could look over the apartment information and talk about moving and dividing up some stuff. We ended up eating at a place called Pipers. I had a roasted goose dinner. Never had goose before, but it was quite scrumptious. I figured I'd be a little adventurous and try something new.
I am forcing myself to step outside of my comfort zone, as is my wife. We are both feeling better about how everything is going at the moment.
Looks like after we sign the lease, we can immediately start moving her in...yeah...I get to sleep in my own bed tomorrow.
I spoke briefly with my friend that is letting me crash at his place and he said that if he ever needed to choose a room mate, it would be me because he hardly even knew I was there because I stayed in my room and tried not to impose on him and his two sons. It feels great to have great friends as him.
Life is going good...each day seems to get a little brighter.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Indy, I'm glad to hear you are getting some good news for a change. In my case, I was out of my home for 18 months because my BPDer exW filed a R/O against me. I was concerned that, on returning, I would hate being back home due to all the painful memories. As it turned out, however, I adjusted quickly and sped up my progress by making some changes, e.g., had the carpet fully replaced. I therefore suspect you are going to enjoy being back in your own bed.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

3 days without new updates from Mr. Indy. I wonder is he OK?


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

I been wondering too. Hopefully he just got busy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Yes, thank you for the concern...not a whole lot to update, other than small details here and there.

I am doing great and will actually be attending my first Al-Anon meeting this evening. Our receptionist at work suggested I try attending one. 

The apartment complex had the information wrong on the leasing paperwork, she's not scheduled to move in until the 25th, so I per-maturely left my friend's house and didn't want to come back to him for a couple more weeks. I felt I imposed long enough. I decided to just get another hotel until she has moved. 
She has continued to contact me via text...and asked me to call her yesterday. I took a small break at work and gave her a call. She told me that she hasn't been sleeping well and has to take naps here and there throughout the day, so she will not be able to work for some time, until she can get her sleep problem worked out.
That was the wrong thing to tell me...my blood pressure started to rise...I told her that she cannot use that as an excuse or reason not to find work. No more crutches will be used in this relationship. 
She had sleeping issues before and was able to hold down a full time job, I didn't see any difference now, other than the fact she was seeing if I would help enable her bad behavior. Not going to do it.
I see this as a setback in her progress, not the other way around. I told her she was getting me on edge and my blood pressure was up. She apologized, but it was too late at that point. 
After I got off of the phone with her, I was trying to figure out why it was so important to tell me these things...especially while I was at work. It did nothing but piss me off and make me angry. I will not take calls or call her from work any longer...I hope I have learned my lesson.
She sent me a few text messages afterward, still apologizing and I told her I was going to attend the Al-Anon meetings.
This seemed to confuse her and asked why. I tried to explain it, but she got defensive and made me sound like I was creating problems out of thin air. I got passive aggressive with her and commented something about so much for me trying to help myself...I should just listen to what her spiritual healer has to say because she is the one that has my best interest at heart, right?

It is literally becoming quite evident that the more we talk about anything, the more we come to disagreements and I find myself not even wanting to engage in any type of conversation with her...she just really gets under my skin and pisses me off. I think it is because I can now identify her manipulations and don't appreciate them one bit.

Last night, I went with my co-worker to a Subaru WRX/STI meet at a local dealership they have twice a year. He recently bought an STI, so we thought we'd check it out. It ended up being a bunch of young guys in their 20's...just a big testosterone fest  We got free pizza,so I suppose it was worth the trip.
I think we were the oldest men there...I'm 44 and he's 42. lol
We then went to a local brew-house/pub and had a few locally brewed drinks and appetizer and checked out all of the beautiful women there. I really enjoyed myself. There were so many yummy women...Oh, I can't wait!:awink:


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

You are approaching the time in your sepatation where you start to see that staying friends is very difficult. In your case I think is actually detrimental to you to keep to much contact. You need time to heal and move on and keeping up a lot of contact just keeps dragging you back into her drama. For her it appears the only way she is going to get help and deal with her issues is if she is forced to...as long as your there to bail her out she won't. Keep moving forward and don't focus to much on the past...you can't change the past you can only impact the future.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Well, I had an interesting evening...
I attended my first Al-Anon meeting tonight.
I introduced my self by first name only and listened to a guest speaker talk about his childhood and all of things he has dealt with during his life.
Upon arriving there were two women, both my age and attractive, maybe a little older came right up to me and were very friendly and gave me some literature. Most had to do with alcoholism, but some of it related to my troubles.
As the meeting was wrapping up, they said the Lord's Prayer which I did not know but participated in the hand holding and I just listened.
As we were assembling together to join hands, one of the women that was friendly was holding her hand out for me to take, but I didn't want to immediately be drawn to her, so I wedged between a mother and her son. I could tell she was wanting me to hold her hand, but something told me to be cautious and play it safe.
After we were done, she came up to me and started asking me questions like, where I was from and that sort of thing. She is a beautiful woman and I could see myself getting to like her real fast, but I realize the meeting is to benefit me, not to use as a hook up service.
One thing I did notice as I was panning around the room, most all of the people looked vulnerable in some fashion. Some showed depressed looks on their face, while others had a look of hope. I wonder how I was perceived by others...
Everyone was friendly and they encouraged me to come back next week...I most certainly will.

My wife was hesitant for me to go...she didn't understand why I needed to go. She didn't know what it was all about and assumed it was a program to help me get rid of her.
She said she wished she could be a fly on the wall, as she wanted to hear how I portrayed her to others. She told me she is feeling uneasy with our separation...said she was lonely. She briefly called me right after work and we were discussing that as well as the visit to her spiritual healer tomorrow. She asked if I wanted to eat dinner with her, but I was already at a restaurant, so she said she'd get something on her own. 
I told her that when I go tomorrow, I will not have any questions for this spiritual healer, as I am not seeking any advise from her...what I will do is be receptive to whatever wisdom she can conjure up on her own to tell me. I know these types of individuals play off of what little information you give them and look for signs from you when they may have touched on something you can relate to. My wife is putting way too much confidence into this and is hoping she will gain guidance on the type of work she should pursue.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

So, I wake this morning realizing I had dreams about this woman I met at the meeting. I think the thing that got me thinking about her is the fact she showed interest in me -- something my wife hasn't shown in years. I'm actually eager to see her again. She is really quite beautiful. Something is certainly drawing me towards her and I am scared...scared it's the same old trap I had fallen into with my wife.
How can I detect any warning signs that this is the case? How can I identify that she is a troubled soul and I have urgencies to fix her problems?
I've already made it a point in my mind to be sure to dress up on Friday's for work so I will be like that for the meetings. I think I am just lonely and am drawn towards anyone that shows me some attention, this one just happens to be very good looking.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

IndyTMI said:


> How can I detect any warning signs that this is the case? How can I identify that she is a troubled soul and I have urgencies to fix her problems?


Silly man, you already know the answers. You know all the warning signs -- to the point of being able to write a book about it. So give yourself some credit.


> I think I am just lonely and am drawn towards anyone that shows me some attention, this one just happens to be very good looking.


"Shows me attention" and "very good looking" are the GOOD signs. "Very vulnerable" and "desperately needs me" are the red flags. But you already know this. Pretending otherwise, Indy, serves no useful purpose.


----------



## Rakkasan (Mar 4, 2013)

It is so easy to fall for someone who actually shows interest in you after being stuck in a sexless marriage. So hard to resist...


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Uptown said:


> Silly man, you already know the answers. You know all the warning signs -- to the point of being able to write a book about it. So give yourself some credit.
> "Shows me attention" and "very good looking" are the GOOD signs. "Very vulnerable" and "desperately needs me" are the red flags. But you already know this. Pretending otherwise, Indy, serves no useful purpose.


As I was getting around this morning, I looked at my phone and had 6 missed calls from my wife. I had left my phone on mute from the meeting last night and hadn't changed it back to the ringer. 
So, I decided to call her. She is in a bum mood and sounding sad...and desperate.
She said she missed me and realize that she can't go for more than a couple of days without being with me. She told me about her messed up dreams, one being me making out with another woman in front of her. She didn't go into anymore detail, but said it got way worse in her dream.
She starts crying and says she can't do this anymore...says she can't stay at the house any longer. I told her I would switch her places...she still thought I was staying out at my friend's house, as I didn't tell her I ended up back in a hotel. She then asked when I got that, to which I told her sometime last week.
She asks me if I miss her...I didn't know what to say, but said of course I miss her. I really do, it's no lie -- I just don't want to be with her.
Since she didn't sleep well she is missing her belly dance class. She just calls me back again...asks me to come to the house once I finish my breakfast.
I have a few loads of laundry I need to do, so I will go there and get that started and talk with her as long as she remains calm. I think reality is slowly setting in with her, she just is having a difficult time facing it. I know she is feeling very vulnerable at this point, so I will be extra cautious of her radical behavior.


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Be careful, better to meet her in a public place like the mall and go to lunch out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

She is already upset and obsessing....her moods appear to change quickly. It is always better to not put yourself in a vulnerable position. Don't get drug back into her drama...she has to start dealing with reality.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rakkasan (Mar 4, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> She asks me if I miss her...I didn't know what to say, but said of course I miss her. I really do, it's no lie -- I just don't want to be with her.


Sorry man, but that is just cruel. You are just prolonging the agony, you are giving her false hope. You have to cut off the umbilical cord, this is the only way she will be able to function on her own.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Your wife never gave you any attention, but she called 6 times and is getting desperate? You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth. You're also continuing to unfairly torture your wife by lying to her about your intentions. Why not give it to her straight that you are going to divorce? Stringing her along is just wrong.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Rakkasan said:


> Sorry man, but that is just cruel. You are just prolonging the agony, you are giving her false hope. You have to cut off the umbilical cord, this is the only way she will be able to function on her own.


I know...it just hurts. For as much as she has hurt me, it hurts me to hurt her, but I do see where stringing her along is probably more hurtful than facing reality. Man I feel like such a d!ck.



WorkingOnMe said:


> Your wife never gave you any attention, but she called 6 times and is getting desperate? You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth. You're also continuing to unfairly torture your wife by lying to her about your intentions. Why not give it to her straight that you are going to divorce? Stringing her along is just wrong.


I don't understand what you mean that I am speaking out of both sides of my mouth...I know I can't say 'never', but I can say rarely. Only recently when she knows she may lose me is only when the attentions has been shown strongly.

She did say that she senses that I may be just trying to let her down slowly and easily...she knows me better than I gave her credit for.
I will grow a pair and confront her with my intentions...I agree it must be done.
I appreciate the feedback on the errors of my ways. This will only help me down the road.


----------



## Rakkasan (Mar 4, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> I will grow a pair and confront her with my intentions...I agree it must be done.


That is what I like to hear. I am keeping my fingers crossed for you!


----------



## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

Glad to hear it Indy. Stay strong.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I went to my counseling session this afternoon and was able to gain some clarity on where I am and how I am going to proceed from here. My counselor is truly amazing. I will say something and she will put it back on me in a different light and helps guide me through my issues.
Even though I am not religious, I have been saying the serenity prayer daily and nearly cry each time because I have yet to gain the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. I can accept them, but I have yet to gain the serenity part. I'm still working on that...

Here are a couple of things that have transpired since I last posted.

My wife injured her lower back doing Pilates, now is seeing a chiropractor for her troubles. She mentioned something about I am supposed to go with her for her next visit so I can learn how to do her maintenance required for her to heal.
I don't want to do any maintenance on her...she didn't have any interest in maintenancing me...she can find someone else for that. 
She gets on this kick of telling me how financially irresponsible I am for spending all of this money on an apartment, all of her classes, my hotel, her medical bills, etc.
She then paints me black and wants me to sell my guns and ammo so she can go get a nose job...
She said I ruined her life...she had a little house she was buying when we met and now she doesn't have that any longer and blames me. She said she used her savings to pay off my credit card debt and also funded our honeymoon to St. Croix. I now owe her...
I asked her about when she totaled her Mustang, who bought her the Trans Am she now owns? Oh, that doesn't count because it was just a replacement car, so that $10k doesn't count. Never mind the fact that I was self employed and turned it into a job she was able to maintain for 5 years. Never mind I have provided for her financially throughout our marriage. 
But, yeah, I lost money investing in gold, but that money was only available from the liquidation of my business, so it was still my money.
I take her to dinner yesterday, as we had a few things to talk about for her apartment. We take her car, as mine is having transmission troubles and is not shifting so well.
I stop for gas and another T/A pulls up behind me. I briefly speak with the young guy that jumps out and was impressed that he actually had two of them and the one he was driving, it sounded pretty cammed out... rumbling under the hood.
My wife taps on the door window for me to see what she wanted. She said that when she gets her inheritance, she will buy me an old '69 T/A for all of my troubles during our marriage.
So, on one hand she is mad at me and wants to make things even in her mind during the divorce, but then acknowledges how much effort I put into it and wants to reward me with an old muscle car. She is bouncing back and forth on me being a good guy and a bad guy...all within a short period of time.
So another thing that happened while at the house yesterday was she had recorded a few programs about relationships and now seems to think that she is all of a sudden in touch with her sexuality and will be able to satisfy my needs. She had multiple times placed her hand on my leg, tried to rub my back all with me indicating it was unwanted...very similar as how she had treated me all these years. She also said she needed a back rub, I ignored what she said.
She said she felt like she was losing me and feels like if we don't patch things up now that we will only drift further apart. She made a reaching gesture at my chest and grabbed and pulled toward her, like she wanted to bring me closer to her.
I was hurting inside, yet I was also feeling a bit justified in the fact she now knows how I have felt when she was unresponsive to me and my needs.
When I left and was in my Jeep on the way back to the hotel, I was quite vocal to myself and crying, saying, "How does that feel Mrs. IndyTMI?...How does it feel to need someone only to feel rejected? It hurts like a hell, doesn't it? That's how you have made me feel for far too long! NO MORE!!! I won't stand for it any longer!"


----------



## Rakkasan (Mar 4, 2013)

Classical "see saw" example. Most selfish women who don't care about their husband's needs find themselves in a dire sexual need once it is too late.

Glad you stayed strong.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

IndyTMI said:


> I have been saying the serenity prayer daily and nearly cry each time because I have yet to gain the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.


Indy, IMO, you will have plenty of time LATER to work on accepting things you cannot change. Right now, you are right in focusing on the many things you CAN change about your life as long as you are motivated to take action. Significantly, one of the greatest motivating and energizing forces is righteous anger, not serenity. This is why anger is one of the primitive, basic defenses we are born with. As I said earlier, your best chance of being able to walk away from a toxic marriage -- given your excessive-caregiving nature -- is to hold onto that righteous anger, using it as a crutch. A year later, after you are safely away, you can toss that crutch aside and become serene.


> It hurts like a hell, doesn't it? That's how you have made me feel for far too long! NO MORE!!! I won't stand for it any longer!"


Being aware of your anger and hurt is exactly what I'm talking about. This is not to say, however, that you should act on that anger to deliberately harm your W. If she has strong BPD traits as you suspect, she already has been dealing with a world of pain all her life. BPDers typically are far harder on themselves than they are on anyone else.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> ..She said she felt like she was losing me and feels like if we don't patch things up now that we will only drift further apart. She made a reaching gesture at my chest and grabbed and pulled toward her, like she wanted to bring me closer to her.
> I was hurting inside, yet I was also feeling a bit justified in the fact she now knows how I have felt when she was unresponsive to me and my needs..


Mr. Indy,

If only she did this long ago, without all the dramatics that you've been through, maybe your marriage could still be saved. But now? She was just trying to make you feel guilty. I hope you don't fall for this scam. Just a few touch won't make up for her past sins. If she really wants you back, she would stop blaming you and start to really cares for you. But she still does a lot of blameshifting eh? Glad you left your lie detector on, Mr. MacGyver, er, Mr. Indy 



> ..When I left and was in my Jeep on the way back to the hotel, I was quite vocal to myself and crying, saying, "How does that feel Mrs. IndyTMI?...How does it feel to need someone only to feel rejected? It hurts like a hell, doesn't it? That's how you have made me feel for far too long! NO MORE!!! I won't stand for it any longer!"


Yea, that's the spirit. It's payback time. Don't feel guilty for all of those you're screaming about. It's mostly her fault anyway. Yeah, you're partially guilty as well, for being such a MacGyver. But still, your sexless marriage is her fault, as she was the one who had chosen to withhold sex from you. Fair is fair.


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

IndyTMI:

If you two don't have MINOR children together to co-parent, then I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY you're still

meeting with STBXW
talking with STBXW
texting STBXW

The kindest thing you can do for BOTH OF YOU is to go dark! She is trying to manipulate you into moving back in with her and resuming your 'marriage'...which she will only be able to FAKE the new sexual interest for a short period of time because she hasn't actually DEALT with her REAL problems.

You're encouraging her by interacting with her and acting like you guys can still work it out, or be friends, or be friendly. YOU CAN'T. You'll be exes with NOTHING IN COMMON.


STOP worrying about being a 'bad guy'.
STOP worrying about being 'mean'.
STOP worrying about everybody (STBXW, family, friends, co-workers, neighbors, strangers) LIKING YOU!!!! Like YOURSELF enough to do what's right for YOU!
Have you FINISHED Melody Beattie's book '_Codependent No More'_? Did you answer the questions at the end of every chapter? Did you learn something SUBSTANTIVE about yourself?

If you haven't finished the book, please stop spending ANY TIME with your STBXW and FINISH THE BOOK! (No, I'm not Melody and I don't make any $$$ off the book!) If you HAVE finished the book, then WHY are you still meeting up with STBXW?


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Your screen-name suites you...Thanks for that advise.
No, I haven't finished reading it yet, but I am certainly learning more and more every day. I will double down on my efforts to finish it.
You basically said what my counselor helped me realize yesterday...

I need to stop acting to suite other's approval. 
So, my wife calls me just after 4 this morning to tell me she can't sleep. Thank goodness I was in a deep sleep and had my ringer off or turned down low.
I look at my phone this morning to see the missed call as well as several text messages from her. I was all black this morning...she even blames me for a bad honeymoon. She said she is sorry for mistaking my feelings for love.
Not sure exactly what she meant by that, but it didn't hurt me one bit.

Yep, once she is moved into the apartment and no longer has access to the house, I will have the paperwork mailed to her rather than have a sheriff serve her.

She is complaining about not sleeping and one of her messages was that if she doesn't get some sleep soon, she is going to lose it.

She may seek to find better sleep aids than what is available at the health food store.
The counselor did warn me that it is possible my wife may accidentally or on purpose end her own life and I cannot put any of the blame on myself, but she is prepared to help me if that does come about.

I told her that the next time she threatens suicide, I'm calling 911 and let them deal with it...it's out of my hands.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I recently joined a dating site just to see what is out there and to my surprise, women are actually interested in me.
I have been chatting back and forth with just a few, just getting to know a little about one another and I get this in my email this morning...



> P.s I've never met a man as understanding and eloquent such as you. Your wife is a fool to have not fought for you. I would have cherished you, and made crazy love to you when getting back from dirt biking. All dirty and sweaty. Very sexy. ;-)


That is a confidence booster, right there!

I know I'm not ready to date yet, as I have a few of my own issues I'd like to get clarity on, but I am excited for my future...very excited!


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

You have a lot to look forward too, keep moving forward!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

Good job, IndyTMI!!!!

You might also ask your counselor for recommendations on books regarding (1.) setting/maintaining boundaries and (2.) dealing with manipulative personalities. I think once you get a good handle on these (along with the codependency), you will be in a GREAT position to make HEALTHY RELATIONSHIP choices with all the wonderful new women you're going to be meeting!

Good luck, hang in there! Too bad I no longer live in Indiana!!!! ; )


----------



## Rakkasan (Mar 4, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> I recently joined a dating site just to see what is out there and to my surprise, women are actually interested in me!


That is the spirit!!!!!


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Ms. Trenton. 

Though I don't see eye-to-eye with you, I agree in one aspect, that Indy must be very clear about giving his wife the "I am LEAVING YOU" speech as soon as he is comfortable doing it without fear. 

Unfortunately, courage is not easy to come by for a person who has been conditioned to be meek, weak and accomodating for years and years. Indy has been downtrodden by his wife for years, being bullied into indecisiveness, and I could imagine it's difficult for him to muster enough courage to do the right thing.

I think there's nothing wrong for him to receive some ego boosts, to have a little bit of "tit for tat" (your words), if it is to help him develop the courage he will need to proclaim the ultimate decision, to give his wife the "I AM LEAVING YOU" speech.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Well, I finally did it last night...

Right after work, my wife calls me and is mad...painting me black for a bunch of various things I've done or didn't do.
She wants to talk. I told her I would talk so long as it stayed civil, any bit of hostility and I would leave.

I arrive at the house and she is sensing that I want to end it...slowly part ways and be done with her.
She guessed it and now I had to come to terms with myself that I need to stop stretching this out any longer. I told her at this point in our relationship, yeah, I do want to divorce and I don't see us ever working this out. She continues to point out that just when she is finding herself...able to open up to me sexually that I am now calling it quits. That I no longer want to work on things.
Pretty much anything I said, she was still trying to find a little bit of hope that we can work this out.
We go to dinner and somewhat drop the subject and talk about other things for a while.
When we get back to the house, we start back into our relationship...her son comes up and I go into this whole deep explanation as to how close of a bond I have with him. How he filled a void in my life and it was awesome to have raised him to the great young man he is today. I love him as if he was my own and he loves me back just the same. My wife saw how well we bonded and how good it was to have me in his life. She saw how I was the father that she never had and she didn't want to allow her son to go through the same pain that she did growing up, so she did what was necessary to keep me close to him...that meant she had to also share herself with me. That is the part of our relationship she was most uncomfortable with. I was poking at her own vulnerabilities and she felt threatened by my overwhelming love.
She didn't know how to treat the amount of attention I was offering/seeking.
She wanted to keep her distance, so she wouldn't get hurt once more like her father did to her.
I told her that her father has ruined her love life, as the two pervious relationships would have worked out and kept her happy had those two men not been complete failures and driven by their own gratification seeking pleasures. 
She has repeatedly told me I was too much for her, that she can't handle my needs. I tried to clearly point that out to her last night. That is why we won't work as a couple...we are just two completely different individuals with conflicting ideas on love
She gets all confused and proclaims that we just bonded extremely well while talking about our son (There is no step in my heart, so I won't use it any longer)...but am now telling her that we won't work together???
I explained that that is the problem with our relationship -- she is loving me for the wrong reasons and I feel it...I sense it...I know it in my heart. I am aware of it by her interactions with me...her actions towards me. That is not the love I seek from her. I can't trust that she is now going to change and be the woman that I need.
I am afraid of rejection and I don't want to get my hopes up only to be disappointed by her lack of loving me.

As the evening is winding down, I think I have made it clear that I am done...that I will be seeking a divorce.
She asks me not to make a final decision...to give it some time, that once I get my head clear that we can work things out...she just knows it.
I keep shaking my head...wondering why she won't get it...why she fails to accept what I have said. Why are the things I just said unimportant? Why isn't she listening to me? Why do I not rate? I become furious inside...I get very angry that my voice isn't being heard.
I start to break down...my emotions start to pour out of my head..
I then go into how all I ever wanted was to have a loving, nurturing relationship...I wanted a soulmate. Why is it that everyone else gets to enjoy a healthy, loving relationship, except me? It's not fair!!! I want what everyone else has...I read it everyday...about the things partners are willing to do to keep each other happy...why can't I have that?
I then go into the fact that because I started to search for answers...I started to look at my past as to what has contributed to my failing love life and all that has come about was how messed up my childhood was...how unloved I felt by the things my parents did or didn't do while raising me. How that has affected me as a person today.
I didn't need this **** to come up...I didn't need to dig up all of this crap in my life. I had been repressing these feelings for a long time and now it's all been brought up to the surface and it's hitting me straight in the face. I hurt so badly...
I was in a raging outcry when I was explaining this to her...I was crying profusely...I think I was having a mental breakdown. She saw how distraught I was and didn't want me to drive back to the hotel, said she was worried for my safety.
She tried to give me a hug and I pushed her away. She got a little defensive by it, said she just wanted to show some compassion to what I was feeling. I told her that was part of the problem with us...I have too much compassion for her and am so concerned with how she is feeling, I am overriding my own feelings to please her....that's not healthy.
She continues to ask me to not make a final decision...to give myself some time to think things over.
I had to go...any more time there was just going to go badly...I needed some fresh air.
As I was leaving, she said she loved me...I said I know and love her as well, but we can't be together any longer....I have to break free.
She asked that I call her so she knows I made it safe to the hotel, so I did so, but she didn't answer. I sent her a text message to let her know I was there and safe.
She then says she didn't know what just happened and are we through? Should she expect papers in the mail?
I didn't reply, other than to tell her that I thought I just had an emotional breakdown...yep, I lost it and broke the f*** down.
She text'd back and asked for me to calm down.
I went to sleep.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I don't know what it was but something hit me last night like a ton of bricks.

We were sitting there, talking about her apartment and such...I was going to look up what programming was available for TV/Internet connections and some non-caregiving logic ran through my head. I asked myself, "Why are you going through all of these troubles to ensure she is taken care of when she hasn't done so for you during the marriage?" I couldn't answer other that to give my caregiving answer, which I decided was not acceptable any longer...it didn't make any sense, I was having a mental argument in my head and it was eating at me...why am I feeling so compelled to treat her this way when it's not reciprocated? Enough IndyTMI...Enough! Be a man and tell her...tell her you can't do this any longer...tell her you want out for good.

So, I found out in my own head that she is not going to believe what I say, but will believe what I do, as actions have a way of being more real to her. I have to show her I mean what I say and say what I mean.

Tomorrow we go to do the inspection of the apartment and obtain keys, she plans on sleeping there tomorrow so I can sleep in my own bed and get out of the hotel.
I know there are more troubling emotional events that will arise, but I think I got out a huge amount of it out last night...I have been so exhausted at work today, I could barely function. 
Add the fact my transmission has been giving me trouble since this past weekend. I took it in this morning to the dealership and they are raping me for $900, but it will be ready in the morning. I suppose I can't complain, as that is the first repair on a used vehicle I have owned for over 5 years. Them Jeeps are pretty reliable vehicles...I know I will never own another GM one again, that's for sure.


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

Sorry it's been so tough on you the last 24hours Indy!

Hang in there. Take it a day at a time. I'm glad you didn't PROMISE her something you're not really committed to! That is a GOOD step in progress...care-taking YOU instead of care-taking her!

Hope you have a restful night tonight!

And you're right! She will (and SHOULD) believe what you DO, NOT what you SAY; until she learns you mean both (what you SAY and what you DO.)


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Indy, it sounds like you are doing the right thing and keeping on track. You should expect to go through the grieving process many times, moving a bit forward each time you deal with the emotions. When I left my BPDer exW, I felt like I was watching her drown slowly right in front of me. So it was like grieving over a death. The difference is that you know exactly what she should do to save herself but, because she can't trust you, she won't believe anything you tell her.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Indy!!! I step out for a week or so and I come back to see so many positive things happening for you.

I'm glad you steered clear of the woman from Alanon. Thats just creepy and wrong to use Alanon to meet men. I'm thinking she may not be ahead of the game in terms of mental health... know what I mean?

I'm glad you are making it clear to your wife that D is happening. As Uptown points out, she has a world of pain already, no need to add to it by stringing her along.

You've been chronicling some aha moments of when your natural propensity to nurture morphs into enabling and co-dependency. Excellent!

You are having a few moments of emotional diarrhea to boot. While certainly not fun, they are necessary to rid the soul of the toxins. It may not even make sense what triggers them, but they are a sign of healing. So don't worry that you are cracking up, you're actually healing!

Lastly, your wife still has a son. Luckily he is an adult. You and he have a great relationship and hopefully it will stay that way. But as the realization dawns on your wife, who can really predict how she will behave and how her painting will affect the relationship with her son. This is your opportunity to teach him about being a man. It will be tempting to fight back, to counter her actions, but in the end that will only come back to bite you. 

You are doing great Indy!


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Thanks...I'm feeling much better now. I released a little rant on another forum about cable TV and bad drivers. It was an awesome way to let out some anger in a positive way. I even had people like my post, as they agreed with what I had stated. 

I'm taking this day at a time, looking for each to be brighter than the one before.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

IndyTMI said:


> I'm taking this day at a time, looking for each to be brighter than the one before.


Taking it a day at a time is good. In my experience, however, each day will NOT be brighter than the one before. The emotional healing process proceeds in fits and starts -- and several weeks from now you may wake up feeling like you are right back at square one. But don't believe it. That is just a feeling. Although the healing is not a linear process, you likely will make good progress when you look at it on a week-by-week basis. In any event, Indy, you've already come a long way, as Pink was quick to point out above.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Mr. Indy,

If everything works out well for you, and you finally find another love, you should write a book about how you did it, how you got out of a bad relationship. You like to help people, I am sure that book will help lots of poor downtrodden "MacGyvers" out there who really need to read a former "MacGyver"'s success stories.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

John,

What an awesome idea...

I had thought about writing a book about my business success and failure, but think my personal life and experiences will certainly benefit others far more.
I may have a few books to get out of my head.
I know that if nothing else, it will be another avenue of releasing what has been built up inside. I know I need more release, doing it in a healthy manner is what I seek.

I know just from the things I have posted on here -- at various times there is major passion into what I am writing and sometimes the emotions of it cause me to hit my keys on the keyboard just a little bit harder than I would otherwise.
Ok, sometimes I've hit them harder than what is physically good for the keyboard, but a keyboard is a fairly cheap item to replace, so I'm ok with that risk.

I got a full night's rest last night and feel 100% better than I did yesterday. I don't have that drained feeling. I am actually feeling in pretty high spirits and am not near as emotional. Our receptionist at work definitely noticed. Yesterday, she was quite concerned for me and gave me a big comfort hug and said she has been praying for me. She is the one that recommended going to the Al-anon meetings. She recommended I try a few different ones, as some are better than others and it may take a few before I feel truly comfortable with the group.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> John,
> 
> What an awesome idea...
> 
> ...


Yes, why not, it's a healing process for you, and other people out there whom are "on your shoes" will be able to pick up a few pearls of wisdom from your writings, which could be directly applicable to their situation.

Most important is how to avoid being trapped in a marriage like yours, where you're doing all the loving and caring, and get lots of blameshifting and sexless days in return.

:smthumbup:


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Friday evening she confronted me...wanted to know my true intentions, as she sensed I had not been honest with her. I was backed into a corner and had to come clean...I had to hurt her once again. My lame attempts to let her down easy had failed. My plan to be a nice guy shined it's ugly head once more.
If my STBXW didn't get it before, she definitely gets it now.She has gone full circle with her emotions and I had the unwanted opportunity to watch her go through them all.I saw denial, frustration, anger, hatred, blame-shifting, vengefulness, regret, sorrow, sadness & depression.
She kept trying to find the one point that caused me to make the final decision and I tried to explain to her that it wasn't just one particular issue, but an assortment of various things that built up to what it is.
I told her that now looking back at it, that I wanted out even before she raged and became physical, but that was what I had used as my validated reason to leave...I was justified in my actions for once. I had good reason to separate.
She knows how slivering my actions have been to get her the apartment and give her false hope of actually being able to repair things. She now knows I had no spine to confront her with my true intent. She cursed me and belittled me to the worst effect one could stoop in attempts to hurt another. I was hurting, not by what she was saying, but because I knew she was hurting.
I got to see her break down in her apartment and cry like a young child. All of the hurt, the desperate cries of a lost little girl all poured out. I was really torn up inside, but nothing could ever change my mind at this point...I knew we had to go through this pain so we can heal.
She blamed counseling for bringing us to this point and I told her counseling wasn't why we are where we are today...it is the two of us. We are the ones responsible for this, no one else. They can't be blamed for this. We must take responsibility for this...I am. I know I messed up several steps along our marriage. I regret my past wrongs, but I can't change them now, I can only make better choices moving forward.

As we were moving some of her stuff, I came across her keys and asked what she thought we should do about the car keys. She said she was too tired to figure it out and went on to something else. I decided to go ahead and switch our keys around so we only had keys for our own vehicles. As I was swapping the keys, I removed her house key from her ring and when I gave her her key ring, she exploded in anger that I tricked her and took her house key away.
I told her there was nothing sneaking about what I did...I asked her what she thought, she didn't respond so I made a decision and told her we needed to make sure we both had solid boundaries. No, she wouldn't let this go for some time...basically the rest of the evening that I tricked her and was being deceitful when trading the keys, as she thought it was just for the cars. She was hoping to retain a key so she could come over to ride her bike on the nice paths we have in this neighborhood. There aren't as many areas to ride her bike where her apartment is. I explained that I have no issue with her coming over to ride her bike, it just won't be while I am away at work, that she will have to change her riding schedule to times when I am home in the evening. I told her I had hoped she was still going to come over for a while, as we have so much stuff to sort out for a rummage sale, then donate what doesn't sell to charity. 
Once everything is sold or given away, her access to my house will stop as well.

There is so much more to tell, but I did go to my second Al-anon meeting Friday evening and almost broke down in front of everyone. We discussed self will and I chose to speak. I introduced myself and told them all that I was in a very weak and vulnerable position at the present time and have little self will to do the right things. I find myself trying to force my will upon other people and I can recognize that it is not healthy. I so want to get better from this. 

One thing my STBXW is starting to get angry about is the fact while we are having discussions or just by anything I am doing...if I recognize any of my codependent behaviors, I will point then out and ask myself why I am doing them. She is angry because we can't have a normal conversation because I have to phsyco analize everything. I told her that self awareness was one of the first steps to heal and if I can see them while they are happening, I will most certainly point them out.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Indy, it was painful to simply read about you two just went through. I'm so sorry you are in such pain. At the same time, however, I am so glad you made it absolutely clear you are seeking a divorce. Indeed, you had already done that several days ago in what you told her. Now you've followed through by making it clear in your actions. It was wise for you to delay that action until she was safely removed from the home and had a secure place to stay in her own apartment. IMO, you did well. VERY well.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

I agree with what Mr. Uptown said above. I am sorry to hear about the pain that you've been through, but that is the consequences of doing the right thing to do.

There is a saying in my country: you cannot make omelette without breaking the egg. Your fingers are dirty now due to breaking the egg, but in time they will eventually be clean, and I hope your omelette will be a delicious one, Mr. Indy.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

So, she came over last night to get more of her stuff and we talked a bit more.
She acknowledges that this is what she gets for treating me as she did for all of those years. She recognizes that she wasn't fulfilling her part of the marriage. She is very remorseful and only wishes I would give her just one more opportunity to make things right as she didn't know the gravity of what would happen. Said she was ready to open up with me sexually. Somehow, I'm just not buying it.

To me, if it takes such of a heavy thing to get her to finally to come around then I don't want to play that type of game to have a loving, healthy relationship with her. I guess it wouldn't be so healthy being like that...nor loving.

I find a letter this morning shoved in between our wedding album. As I am reading it, I find she is not angry when she wrote it. It was after she had calmed down and could think rationally. She explains where she thought things were going only to have me pull the rug out from under her and proceed with divorce. Sais that she will always regret that she ruined everything.

Yesterday she also handed me a short note that thanked me for helping her move and for the nice apartment.

The note also asked if our marriage was just another example of us trying to hold onto something that wasn't working for far too long, just like our business.No matter how hard we tried to save it...maybe it is time to let go.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Mr. Indy,

It is a pleasant surprise to hear that your wife handled herself rather well, once you actually gave her the "I am Leaving You" speech.

Let's see how things goes. Seems like an amicable divorce is possible after all.

I am wishing you the best.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> So, she came over last night to get more of her stuff and we talked a bit more.
> She acknowledges that this is what she gets for treating me as she did for all of those years. She recognizes that she wasn't fulfilling her part of the marriage. She is very remorseful and only wishes I would give her just one more opportunity to make things right as she didn't know the gravity of what would happen. Said she was ready to open up with me sexually. Somehow, I'm just not buying it.
> 
> *To me, if it takes such of a heavy thing to get her to finally to come around then I don't want to play that type of game to have a loving, healthy relationship with her. I guess it wouldn't be so healthy being like that...nor loving*.
> ...


Yea, if it takes too much sacrifices both mental and material just to get your wife to love you, without her doing her part to do the same for you, then her love is ultimately not worth your efforts and not worth the pain you're experiencing all these years.

Anyway, if your wife really sincerely regretted all her past behavior towards you, let's see if she could let you go as a free man without a fight, and if she could still be friends with you after the divorce. If she really does all that, then we have to give her credits where credit is due. Perhaps you should share her some of the royalty of your upcoming book 

Good luck Mr. Indy!


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Just when I thought she was getting it, I realize she doesn't.

So once she confronted me, I was honest and told her I want a divorce. She will not accept it though...she hears me say it, but does not actually believe it in her own mind.

Each action I take that is a clear indication of the divorce, she breaks down and tells me I am destroying her life...that she doesn't need to be hit with such devastation all at once.
First, it was just me telling her I wanted a divorce.
Then it was the fact I took back the house key and garage door opener.
Now it's the fact that I want to move on and start dating again. 

Each time one of these comes up, she breaks down and acts like her world is crushing in on her.
She keeps bringing up the fact that she wants to have a sexual relationship with me, but I am done. She is getting desperate in her actions and is now outright offering up oral in attempts to get me to change my mind.

She is completely upset by the fact I want to start dating and move on with my life. I asked her repeatedly last night to just let me go...let me go.
She won't.

She threatened to stalk me at work and after work...all hours of the day and night.
I reminded her about who was funding her for some time and she sort of backed down with her threats.

She feels like she has lost total control. She resents me because I am the one in power of the relationship. She is mad because I am the one ending it. 
I asked her what could I have done differently to have made this ending sway to a better light for her. She couldn't answer. It's because it doesn't matter how I went about it, it's just the fact I did it.
She wishes she has the ball in her court and was the one to call it quits.

She said I am controlling her with the divorce. 
Now, she is demanding I keep her on my insurance for at least 12 months. She even mentioned that she wanted me to pay for her apartment for 2 years.
I told her I need to look at what is financially beneficial to me and that is how I will decide.

I know things will change when she eventually settles down from all of her emotional trauma, but she just will not get anything I say...she needs to see my words take action, so I think I am going to go ahead and forfeit insurance concerns and get the filing done, so she will see I mean what I say...because I most certainly do mean it.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Indy, thanks for giving us an update of the situation. Sure sounds like you're doing very well. I agree with you that your actions will speak far louder than words, which she has largely ignored.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Oh Indy, my heart breaks for the pain you both are going through.

Her mental health issues aside, as I am reading this and sensing her acute pain (not to exclude yours just follow this thought) I can't help but wonder what lesson this story could give to others in long suffering relationships. You finally took some serious actions, stood your ground, enforced your boundaries and right to have your needs met. But now she is desperate to see the error of her ways and "appears" as if she's really ready to make a change. I wonder (her mental health issues aside) had you reached a mental clarity state of your boundaries and needs, prior to reaching theming of no return, could this be a lesson for others?

Like that frog in a pot of warm water... Things are comfortable enough not to risk everything just to address one or two issues. Where do we draw the line between risking something decent for something fabulous?


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Oh Indy, my heart breaks for the pain you both are going through.
> 
> Her mental health issues aside, as I am reading this and sensing her acute pain (not to exclude yours just follow this thought) I can't help but wonder what lesson this story could give to others in long suffering relationships. You finally took some serious actions, stood your ground, enforced your boundaries and right to have your needs met. But now she is desperate to see the error of her ways and "appears" as if she's really ready to make a change. I wonder (her mental health issues aside) had you reached a mental clarity state of your boundaries and needs, prior to reaching theming of no return, could this be a lesson for others?
> 
> Like that frog in a pot of warm water... Things are comfortable enough not to risk everything just to address one or two issues. Where do we draw the line between risking something decent for something fabulous?


I think you are correct.

She told me today, as I was helping move more stuff into her apartment, is that she did hear me mention divorce as the result of not being happy earlier, but she discounted it as if she had said it to me. She told me that the previous times when she mentioned divorce, she never ever meant it and she thought that I was using it like she had in the past. Only as a manipulating point to get me to comply with what ever it was she wanted me to do or not do at the time.
She said she is very heartbroken that she didn't take me seriously. She wished that I would give her another chance. I told her that I just don't see how this can or would wake someone up to naturally having the attraction and want to see your spouse sexually satisfied. She lost it shortly after we married and it is something that shouldn't be forced or felt like the need to comply. If it isn't a natural action on her part, I don't want it.
We spent quite a bit of time together today moving more of her stuff and we found her a TV stand, as well as a cheap little microwave oven. Today was the first day she didn't start in on any of the confrontational questions about our divorce. Today was really the first non-emotional day we've had.

She did make me mad yesterday and today for her actions. She has told me that she is now sexually frustrated because masturbating just doesn't do it for her and she misses my touch. As I was moving some of her stuff yesterday, she goosed me while I was walking up the stairs. Today, during dinner, she rubbed my leg with her foot. Both times I reacted in a manner that let her know it was unwanted.


----------



## Rakkasan (Mar 4, 2013)

I honestly think you are spending too much time with her. You have to cut the umbilical cord. The longer you do things for her, the longer it will take for her to be self sufficient.

I don't know if I could refuse sex if I were you. I admire you for this.


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Way to go Indy! You have some courage and these wives who withhold deserve it.


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Your making great progress IndyTMI! Keep looking forward to new beginnings and leave your past behind you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> ...She keeps bringing up the fact that she wants to have a sexual relationship with me, but I am done. She is getting desperate in her actions and is now outright offering up oral in attempts to get me to change my mind...


..and giving her a chance to do a Lorena Bobbitt on you? naaahhh... :scratchhead:

You did the right thing amigo


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> I think you are correct.
> 
> She told me today, as I was helping move more stuff into her apartment, is that she did hear me mention divorce as the result of not being happy earlier, but she discounted it as if she had said it to me. She told me that the previous times when she mentioned divorce, she never ever meant it and she thought that I was using it like she had in the past. Only as a manipulating point to get me to comply with what ever it was she wanted me to do or not do at the time.


Now she admitted that she manipulated you in the past. Lessons learned... the hard way..



> She said she is very heartbroken that she didn't take me seriously. She wished that I would give her another chance. I told her that I just don't see how this can or would wake someone up to naturally having the attraction and want to see your spouse sexually satisfied. She lost it shortly after we married and it is something that shouldn't be forced or felt like the need to comply. If it isn't a natural action on her part, I don't want it.


:smthumbup::iagree: No more dramas, no more manipulations, no more lazy spouse all taking no giving.



> She did make me mad yesterday and today for her actions. She has told me that she is now sexually frustrated because masturbating just doesn't do it for her and she misses my touch..


And pinocchio's nose suddenly become longer. No, I think this is just another attempts of manipulation. You said she's LD, and so that her being 'sexually frustated' thing is just another things she said, not things she really meant it. Be careful..



> As I was moving some of her stuff yesterday, she goosed me while I was walking up the stairs. Today, during dinner, she rubbed my leg with her foot. Both times I reacted in a manner that let her know it was unwanted.


Be careful Mr. Indy...Remember Lorena Bobbitt....... :scratchhead:


----------



## Rakkasan (Mar 4, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Be careful Mr. Indy...Remember Lorena Bobbitt....... :scratchhead:


I concur. Lorena Bobbitt is crazy!!!! And John Wayne Bobbitt is just nuts!!! Happy April Fool's Day everyone!


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Rakkasan said:


> I honestly think you are spending too much time with her. You have to cut the umbilical cord. The longer you do things for her, the longer it will take for her to be self sufficient.
> 
> I don't know if I could refuse sex if I were you. I admire you for this.


Our time apart will increase as the days and weeks progress. Just need to get past this initial move thing so she has no reason to come over any longer.

She came over to the house yesterday to pickup more of her stuff as well as to watch Game of Thrones. I still have the TV at the house and have yet to move it.
While there, she was doing various stretches to help with a pinched nerve she has in her lower back from the Pilates class she has been taking.
I must admit...seeing her bending around was certainly affecting me. I know I couldn't let her know I was aroused or she would have tried to take advantage of my vulnerability and it would have gotten a bit ugly, as my two heads would have collided and I think ultimately I would have rejected her.
I just can't go there with her any longer. She rejected me far too often for me to allow it now.
I'm having difficulty understanding how someone can be in a committed relationship and reject their partner as she has with me.
I'm saying that because right now, I am rejecting her and it is something I have to purposefully force to make happen...how she was able to do this with me certainly makes me question her sincereness now. It doesn't matter now anyhow, as I just can't put my mind back in that mode with her any longer.


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

IndyTMI...I have a hard time understanding it also. If spouse really loves and cherishes their partner, they want to please their partner. You just naturally put their spouses needs first. To me a spouse rejecting the others needs in a marriage is controling and self centered.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

mineforever said:


> IndyTMI...I have a hard time understanding it also. If spouse really loves and cherishes their partner, they want to please their partner. You just naturally put their spouses needs first. To me a spouse rejecting the others needs in a marriage is controling and self centered.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mrs. Indy married him expecting a MacGyver, and for better or worse, she actually got a MacGyver. What she failed to realize is that, while MacGyvers are nice, humble and willing to self-sacrifice for the best of the marriage.. ultimately MacGyvers are smart, intelligent beings who could think for themselves, and could see the reality of "lazy spouse all taking no giving".. 

In IT Support talk: Even the most rugged and most reliable computers will eventually require periodic maintenance to keep functioning well..


----------



## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

mineforever said:


> IndyTMI...I have a hard time understanding it also. If spouse really loves and cherishes their partner, they want to please their partner. You just naturally put their spouses needs first. To me a spouse rejecting the others needs in a marriage is controling and self centered.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree:


----------



## Cobre (Feb 24, 2013)

You doing ok Indy?


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Yeah haven't heard from him in a couple of days...hope all is well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I'm fine...thanks for the concern. I was just arguing/discussing matters with my STBXW.

She comes over after work to finish grabbing stuff to take to her apartment. When she arrives, she immediately gets under my skin by trying to blame me for not knowing her son was going to change his story as to what happened during his vehicle accident that ultimately makes him the one responsible. There is nothing I could have done to change the outcome, yet she was looking for someone to blame other than her son who IS the one responsible for the problem. I outright told her she was trying to control me to change the outcome of something I had no power to change...let it go.
I told her to say the Serenity Prayer.

We both get calmed down by that and then go to dinner. She brings up some of the issues about our lack of communication and how we can do better in the future.
She asked that had we not had our argument earlier before dinner if there was any little bit of hope of us repairing things. I told her No...I will not change my mind about divorce. I want a divorce and will file for it. I told her that she is still refusing to accept what I have already told her half a dozen times and that is I want a divorce. She has refused to listen to me time and time again.
So, now she seems to get it...wonder how many days that will last before she somehow thinks we still have a chance?
I have thought it over and know I must go ahead and file regardless of insurance concerns. She will not listen to anything other than physical action. Action I must show her.

I don't want her to hurt any longer, so since she is the one creating this false hope for herself...I have to help her accept this by way of action.

I still haven't finished reading the first book from Melody Beattie on codependency, but am getting close. I have certainly been able to detach, especially with her living in an apartment away from me. My emotions are not on steroids any longer. I can say the Serenity Prayer without emotion. I have gone days now without feeling sad or crying. I am really excited about getting my life on track. I am still going to counseling to help identify my own issues and get things sorted out. My counselor told me I am doing well to be able to identify and catch myself when doing unhealthy things.

My STBXW was trying to tell me that I never tried to repair our relationship...that I have wanted out for a long time. I told her she was way off track, so I pulled up this thread and started to read a few of the posts, then searched back as to when I first sought out help online...when I purchased NMMNG & MMSLP...she can't tell me I never wanted to repair this...she is so wrong.
I do understand she was lashing out and being defensive, but I just can't stand for her to say such disingenuous statements to me. 

But, I am in a good spot at the moment...things are getting better.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Just after I had posted that last post, she was still at the house talking to an old friend she knows in Ohio.She comes upstairs to the bedroom to talk a bit more. She keeps wanting to break down a time line as to when I had finally given up on the marriage. She begins to show anger and vengeful feelings. She mentioned something about how much her medical would be without insurance to which brought me to bring up filing.
As soon as I brought it up, she immediately goes into confrontational talk and starts demeaning me with words of hate. I told her that she was getting mad when I would not tell her what is on my mind and when I do come out with my intentions, she becomes angry and makes it even worse.
I realize this morning that she is the one that has caused me to keep my thoughts to myself in the past due to her persecution of me regardless.

She ends up leaving near 1 am. I go straight to sleep. I wake to a phone call at 4 am. Just as I answer it, she hangs up. She then sent a text saying that if I don't answer the phone she will come over and ring my door bell the rest of the morning and bug me during the day. She calls again and I answer. She thanks me for ruining her life and for being such a little boy. She said I wasn't ever close to being a man and she now knows that I never ever did love her...even from the beginning. I understand she was in pain and is lashing out in any way that would hurt me. I am certainly over her hurtful words and know it is her way of trying to gain some sort of power in the situation.
She said since I messed up her life, she will now start harassing me at home and at work. Since she can't sleep, she will not allow me to sleep either.
I quickly told her not to push me away like this. It is only going to hurt her because she will be the one arrested and put in jail. Will I have compassion to bail her out? No...why would I do that just so she can taunt me some more.
I think I finally got through as she did calm down. I told her that if she turns on me that I will immediately cancel all funding I am providing and she will make her own world more miserable. I told her I wanted to remain her friend, but she has to be a willing participant.

I told her I needed to try and get some sleep because I had a test I needed to be involved with at work today and needed to get what little sleep I can.
I wake this morning to find additional text messages that say she can't sleep and wants to move.

Monday I am contacting the attorney to have the filing submitted.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Mr. Indy,

This verbal abuse that you are experiencing (again) is the result of you letting your wife bullied you verbally into submission in the past.

She thought, since verbally bullying you worked in the past, she will try again and again and again. Maybe that's the only way she know. Maybe she has gotten too comfortable bullying you in the past (and you letting her), that she doesn't know any other, better ways of negotiation and communication.

I am sure this is a truly hurtful times for both of you, especially you since you really loved her in the past, and you still care for her even now, despite all pains and rejections you've been through.

I hope you will be able to summon enough intestinal fortitude to do the right thing. Your divorce will be a life-changing experience for both of you. For you to get rid of your codependency, and for her to life on her own, and developing her full potential as a person, without a MacGyver available all the times for her. 

Either way, she really need to be able to control her actions better especially in negotiation with you. 

And you need to be firm in your resolution to get a divorce, as this is really for the best of all parties involved. Yes, including her.

I wish you much luck and success.


----------



## Speed (Dec 9, 2011)

You need to distance yourself from her as soon as possible. Keep your conversations focused on the future and the divorce. Stop rehashing the past. 

You both need to move on.


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

I know I have told you this before...but I feel it warrants repeating..I am sure your attorney will say the same. Careful the amount of contact you have with her without another person present. People can get very vengeful once a divorce starts. Be careful...error on the cautious side.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Oh, how I feel I'm being manipulated.....

My STBXW texts me today and asked if we can have dinner together, as she wanted to talk. I agreed.
Well, it resulted in her still trying to hold on and I had to be firm and tell her I was most certainly done. She asked if I could give her 30 days before I filed, so she could figure out what she was doing with a job and possibly moving to another apartment. I told her I didn't see what that had to do with anything...that she was still trying to control me.
As I was getting ready to leave, I told her I was going to call the attorney tomorrow and file.
Only then does she bring up the fact that she claims she has a bump on her perineum and she thinks it is from the one time we had anal sex back on Dec. 30th. What I don't get is the fact that she went to her general practitioner today to get a prescription for a sleep aid, as she is having difficulty sleeping all through the night and didn't mention it to him then. She is complaining about road noise outside her apartment around 5am. She did say they were trying to pressure her to get a colonoscopy and a mammogram. Yet, she didn't mention a bump she seems to have noticed just about a month ago? 
I told her to go get it checked out right away...and I didn't understand why she didn't mention it while at the doctor today. I think she is making it up...but, I can't be for sure, so I told her to call in the morning to schedule an exam. 
She told me I should apologize for ruining her sex life. 
I told her I would delay the filing until she had her exam and found out if she is required to have surgery or not.

Since she has been out of the house, the physical detachment has helped me considerably. It has helped me not feel so compelled to jump and run to her every need. I don't feel like I am walking on eggshells around her any more either.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> Oh, how I feel I'm being manipulated.....


Mr. Indy.. you _are_ being manipulated again.. *facepalm*



> ..she claims she has a bump on her perineum and she thinks it is from the one time we had anal sex back on Dec. 30th. What I don't get is the fact that she went to her general practitioner today to get a prescription for a sleep aid, as she is having difficulty sleeping all through the night and didn't mention it to him then. She is complaining about road noise outside her apartment around 5am. She did say they were trying to pressure her to get a colonoscopy and a mammogram. Yet, she didn't mention a bump she seems to have noticed just about a month ago?


BEEEEP.. BS detected :lol:



> She told me I should apologize for ruining her sex life..


Ain't that supposed to be the other way around? *facepalm*



> I told her I would delay the filing until she had her exam and found out if she is required to have surgery or not...


*triple facepalm* that reason does not warrant the delay, methinks...


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Ahhh...the guilt trip ploy! You do know that is classic 1950's game right. First irs her health, then there is financal, and emotional....you can drag that one out forrrreeeevvveeerrr. IndyTMI your insurance won't cut her off until you are officially divorsed. As far as that goes you can carry a separate policy on her for it...it is not contingent on you filing for divorse.

Here is me giving you a hypothetical....she calls doctor....there booked for a month (imagine that, didn't she want you to give her another month) she goes and insist that the doctor take lump off..next a referral to the surgion 1 month...surgery scheduled one month out. She has surgery it takes 2 months of follow up care. Then she feels something didn't heal right so she asks for a referral to a specialist...2 months to get in for a consult.....on and on you go...your 7 months out now Indy!

This is classic stalling tactics. Go file....your a nice guy but you have to help her learn to stand on her own two feet. When a child is afraid to do somethi ng on there own because its too hard or scary as a parent it is very easy to do it for them...it is much harder to push them out there and hide or stand in the wings ready to jump out and catch them or rescue them if needed. You have to learn to be the wind beneath their wings....you can't carry them forever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Mr. Indy.. you _are_ being manipulated again.. *facepalm*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yea...what I'm thinking as well. Even if I file today, it will take three months for it to be final. That's plenty of time for her to get checked out and have surgery if necessary.

I seriously doubt she even has a problem there. We're talking about something that happened the last couple of days last year. Now, 4 months later it is showing as a problem? I find that difficult to believe, especially why she only brought it up once I told her I was going to go ahead and file.

I look at my phone this morning and had 6 missed calls throughout the night. Plus, she sent a good dozen messages from her ranting on about this and that.

I am really dumbfounded at how she processes the information I tell her. Even over the weekend she was still suggesting and hinting that we have sex, as she wasn't ready for us to just be done on my schedule. Why didn't she get to have a say in the decision process of us being finished? 
I asked her a question last night that she couldn't answer...let alone even get a response from. I asked her how that made her feel, knowing that no matter what she has said, done or thought about me that I have continually turned the other cheek and haven't returned any of the ill words that she has thrown at me? 

She has recently been on a kick telling me that I have never loved her. I asked her then, why is it I never drifted from her? Why didn't I seek out an affair partner when she wasn't there for me? Why didn't I take her advise and seek out a surrogate that she had suggested. If she loved me so much, why would she even suggest I step outside the marriage? 
She also claims I never sought out any help. I showed her some of my posts on here...she still claims that I was wanting it to be over long ago. So, she can't answer as to why I have gone through all of this trouble trying to fix things when I could have just filed and left back then. I understand she is just trying to return the blame and place it on me, when it is she who needs to be saying those things in the mirror.


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

You are getting so much stronger! Read your posts...you have come a long way already. Keep going and don't get sucked back into her drama.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I contacted my attorney this morning and told them I wanted to proceed. I had to give them an updated address for mailing the summons, so now I have to sign that documentation and then drop it off by their office later today before it can actually be filed. No more delays on my part...this is getting done and behind me.


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

*Good God! I am ANGRY ENOUGH for the BOTH OF US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

*WTH! If you DON'T want a great big 2x4 in the head, then QUIT READING NOW!
 *

WHY are you still going to dinner with your STBXW?
WHY are you still texting with your STBXW?
WHY are you still talking on the phone with your STBXW?
WHY are you allowing her to CALL YOU at 4:00AM because SHE IS PISSED OFF?
WHY are you CONSTANTLY discussing your DEAD MARRIAGE on HER timetable? She is TRYING TO MANIPULATE YOU into staying in a 'relationship' of ANY TYPE, HOWEVER SICK because she doesn't want to lose you; you're comfortable AND you're a FREE MEAL TICKET. 

You don't think she REALLY wants to go out and get a job, and support herself, and get 'well' do you....when she can *merely offer* a few BJs, the 'promise' of wild sex, etc.? See, you USED to fall for that crap and SHE KNOWS IT. So, she's hoping with ENOUGH PRESSURE, you'll succumb AGAIN and she can stay in her comfy cozy little 'IndyTMI pays all the bills and acts like my personal emotional punching bag' world!
*QUIT BEING SO "NICE"!*

*WHY are you ignoring your therapist's advice from a COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO to STOP WORRYING WHAT EVERYBODY ELSE THINKS?*

WHY?

Do you REALLY want this CRAP to end? Or are you just addicted to the drama? Honestly, *answer that HONESTLY!*

*You want it to end?*

Change your home phone number to an unlisted number. She has NO NEED to contact you AT HOME (especially at 1AM or 4AM) about ANYTHING! You have NO MINOR CHILDREN, nor a business, nor real estate. NO REASON TO TALK.
Put your cellphone on silent/vibrate and REFUSE to answer it after you go to bed.
If she texts you BS, find a way to copy it to a file, save it in case you need it in the divorce, then IGNORE IT!
If she emails you BS, save it to a 'Divorce' file for your attorney (don't even read it all the way through...once you see it's ranting BS, CLOSE the document with the remainder UNREAD).
If she calls you at work, tell her you are PAID TO WORK. She can contact your attorney about whatever it is she needs; you are NO LONGER discussing your marriage. *It is over*. The divorce is filed. Tell her if she continues to call you at work, you WILL have your attorney file harrassment charges or a restraining order!
*YOU THINK that by being "nice" it will be easier on you both. Well, you've BEEN NICE and it has still SUCKED, hasn't it?* Your wishy-washy attitude has encouraged her to RAMP UP her manipulations...you're CAUSING THIS MESS YOURSELF (even though you don't MEAN to)! 

*Start DOING THE 180* and DETACH FULLY from this emotional vampire! I KNOW you love her, but it doesn't change the fact that she IS one.

If you REALLY want this to stop. 
If you REALLY want to get out of this marriage with your sanity and your dignity INTACT. 
If you REALLY want to NEVER be in another manipulative relationship, then TODAY you will:

Go to amazon.com
Download the "Free Kindle App for my PC"
Buy the e-book version of "Who's Pulling Your Strings: How to Break the Cycle of Manipulation" by Harriet Braiker
Start reading it tonight.
*You will be **AMAZED* (she's been watching MY marriage), *then APPALLED *(my STBXW has been lying to me/manipulating me ON PURPOSE for YEARS...and I was buying her BS?!?), *then you will be IRATE*! Pissed at HER for doing this to you PURPOSELY for her own selfish agenda, pissed at YOURSELF for being BLIND to it (like many of us were.....I know whereof I speak!)

*You will USE THAT ANGER *to WISE UP, ENFORCE THE 180, keep reading books recommended on TAM, continue IC, cut ALL FUTURE communication with STBXW *PERMANENTLY* (there is NO WAY you'll be able to salvage ANYTHING, much less friendship, from this relationship when all is said and done. YOU have lost too much time/emotion/dignity to this relationship....she is UNWILLING to face her OWN demons and actually CHANGE her manipulative self. Many manipulators have a 'scorched earth policy'...she will seek to destroy you! You're seeing the opening salvos already.......painting you black, threatening to stalk, etc.)

You CAN end this drama...but YOU have to WANT TO!

You CAN still have a fulfilling relationship with your son WITHOUT having a relationship with his mother!

You CAN get to a place where YOU are healthy and happy and whole and ABLE TO CHOOSE WISELY in your relationships! You are NOT there yet, so PLEASE only date 'for fun', and RESOLVE that you will have NO SERIOUS RELATIONSHIP for 12-18 months while you WORK ON YOURSELF lest you be back here in a couple of years in another WRONG relationship where the only thing that's changed is the woman's name! 

We want BETTER for you, Indy! YOU want better for yourself! STEP UP and do what is REQUIRED...do it NOW! STOP THIS DESTRUCTIVE cycle (it is hurting your son, as well). YOU are modelling behavior for him...get it RIGHT for EVERYBODY'S sake!


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I just got back from the attorney's office, having signed the paperwork for the filing.
I feel as though a huge heavy hand has lifted from my shoulders.
I can take a deep breath and feel a sense of calm throughout myself. I know I am doing the right thing. I am not second guessing myself. I am continuing to work on my issues so I won't be broken for the next relationship that comes along. I am participating in weekly Al-anon meetings as well as counseling sessions with an LMHC.










Thank you SGW for that post...now that I have filed, I will most definitely take your advise and detach even more now. Yep, I see no need for continued contact. I do see how it is just adding to the tension between us. I want to move on and she only wants to rehash the past. It is time to move on...for the both of us.


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

Once you start to READ about manipulative tactics, you will start to recognize them in *ALL your STBXW's interactions with you*. AND, more importantly, YOU WILL NOT FALL FOR THEM!

Ex: riding her bike in your neighborhood

HOW can that POSSIBLY involve you? She has an apartment, she should be keeping her bike there. She should buy herself a trunk-mounted bike rack. She should load her OWN bike on her OWN car and drive to your neighborhood where it's safe. She should unload her own bike and enjoy her ride. She should load her bike back up and go home to her apartment. There *IS* NO REASON that YOU should be involved in that equation AT ALL!

SHE just wants an excuse to talk to you, meet with you, try to sway you to 'work it out', check on you that you're not actually GETTING SEX from someone else wherein her empty promises of 'more sex' will be for nought! Getting the picture, IndyTMI?

Read the book (Who's Pulling Your Strings)...trust me, within 6 months NOBODY will be pulling YOUR STRINGS except YOU!

*BTW*: Once your STBXW has been SERVED with divorce papers, DO NOT MEET HER ALONE FOR ANY REASON! If you think Uptown & I are being paranoid, you'd be sadly mistaken! People like her, and my STBXH and Uptown's ex-w cannot deal MENTALLY with NOT BEING IN CONTROL ANYMORE. They are SO USED to their manipulations working, that they are unable to handle it emotionally when they are no longer able to get their way with their usual old tricks! They get ANGRY and desperate...their 'scorched earth' policies means you can expect your STBXW to BLATANTLY LIE about you so that others (like your son) will HATE YOU as revenge because you have rejected her! 

Carry a VAR at all times and REFUSE to meet her ANYWHERE except in the presence of a 3rd party of YOUR choosing. Better safe than sorry; expect at least ONE incident of claiming you have physically assaulted/intimidated/attacked her. It's pro forma.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Thanks SGW...I will take that to heart. 

Earlier today she said she had scheduled an appointment with her OBGYN to look at her supposed hernia and asked me to drive her there, as she said she didn't sleep last night. It's true she didn't sleep, as she sent me texts about every hour throughout the night. I told her I couldn't take her because we had tests going on at work and I couldn't leave.
So, I was expecting her to call or text with some sort of news about her hernia. Nothing...no text, no calls, nothing. Must not have had anything to blame me for. 
Yep, tomorrow I will go pick up a VAR, that's a great idea. 
I had a great session with my counselor this evening. She is helping me get past talking about my STBXW and start focusing on me. After all, I want to address my issues that drew me toward her and her problems. That's the last thing I want to do, is to get involved with another woman that is similar to her.

There is a deputy sheriff that lives across the street from me. I had a fairly lengthy discussion with him the other day about my STBXW and what has transpired. He is a CIT(Crisis Intervention Team) officer, so he said if I ever needed anything that I could just come across the street any hour of the day or night and he would assist.
He seems to really like me because he likes to talk about various firearms and he likes the fact I am pretty knowledgable about them.
You know, prior to breaking free from my STBXW, I had hesitation to speak with other people...especially about anything I had a problem with. But, I've found that people really do listen and seem to care about what is going on in my life. I can see good traits in other people where as before, I was a bit wary to open up to others.

Oh...here is another little example of how she can be vindictive, especially once she gets served. The other day, she was here at the house, as I told her I would help clean up her wheels that I stripped off the clear coat from last year. Over the winter the road grime corroded them up and made it very difficult to make shine again. As I was working on them, she was in the house cooking up some salmon I had. 
The following day, she asked me if I had masturbated lately, to which I told her I had. She had a smile on her face and said she had a confession to make. She said she was mad at me and while I was cleaning her wheels, she went upstairs into my night stand and dumped out what lube I had and then put the bottle back. She called it being mischievous.
I told her that I thought it was odd, as the last I knew there was a good 1/3 bottle left and didn't think I had used it all. But, I knew she did it before she confessed, as she didn't rinse the sink out and had lube residue around the drain. Yea, I definitely need to protect myself and my belongings around her. I can't trust to leave her in the house alone anymore. In fact, she will not be in the house with me alone any longer...I just can't trust what she will do or accuse me of. I'm playing it safe from here on out.


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

**hugs** IndyTMI!

It's a SHAME to have to think like this, but it's NAIVE not to! People who haven't dealt with these kinds of people just DON'T GET IT! *When it goes sideways and crazy (and it WILL), just know that there are people here who KNOW what you're going through! We'll be here for you!*

My STBXH told our 14yo daughter that I "raised my hands" to him. (He's 6'1" and 230lbs.!) When she told me this I said, "Your father was blocking the doorway so I couldn't leave the room. I raised both hands in the 'stop' motion and said 'Move please, I want to leave.' I never touched your father." Then I laughed and said, "Do I LOOK stupid enough to raise my hand to your father?" She laughed and said, "No! I didn't think so!"

He also told her (*a 14yr old, mind you*!) the following lies which HE KNEW WERE LIES...

that I cheated on him
repeatedly
with guys he worked with
that I used to be a 'dancer' (you can read that "stripper")
that the FBI has a FILE ON ME that would PROVE I was a cheater!?! (WTF!?!)
That was *HIS* 'scorched earth policy'. Psycho, no?

The truly SAD part is, he *hates me MORE than he loves our daughter*. Be very glad your son is grown!


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Mr. Indy, Mrs. SGW is someone who has "been there, done that", what she said is very valuable.. keep what she said in a special corner of your mind, to ensure that your "BS Detector" stayed on whenever you meet your STBXW...


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

> WHY are you CONSTANTLY discussing your DEAD MARRIAGE on HER timetable? She is TRYING TO MANIPULATE YOU into staying in a 'relationship' of ANY TYPE, HOWEVER SICK because she doesn't want to lose you; you're comfortable AND you're a FREE MEAL TICKET.
> 
> You don't think she REALLY wants to go out and get a job, and support herself, and get 'well' do you....when she can merely offer a few BJs, the 'promise' of wild sex, etc.? See, you USED to fall for that crap and SHE KNOWS IT. So, she's hoping with ENOUGH PRESSURE, you'll succumb AGAIN and she can stay in her comfy cozy little 'IndyTMI pays all the bills and acts like my personal emotional punching bag' world!
> QUIT BEING SO "NICE"!


Ouchh!!! sad but true, Mr. Indy


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

She texts me last night and said that she's not wanting to talk yet, but did have some questions before I file.

I replied and told her to assemble them in an email message and send them to me. That way she doesn't have to talk to me.

This morning, I have not received anything.

She doesn't have any questions...that is just another delay tactic on her part. If she can hold out asking me questions, she thinks the filing will be delayed. Well, I guess she will get a surprise when the summons arrives in the mail.

And still nothing from her regarding her doctor's appointment about her hernia. Nothing at all. 

I didn't realize how much she has lied to me in the past. I thought higher of her than that. There was a level of respect I had for her, whereas there is no justification for any longer. Now it is all very apparent to me.


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

That is part of what manipulators count on, Indy! There is a TINY, TINY, TINY grain of truth in what they say....just enough to give the flavor, the appearance of ALL TRUTH. That's why we believe it. Because there is some SMALL piece of "truth" that we can hang our hat on.

Now we, being normal people, (not without are own problems, granted, but having just NORMAL problems) do NOT lie continually, do NOT lie excessively, do NOT lie needlessly, do NOT string things together in precise ways to make things "APPEAR" in a certain light. We just speak our truth (which is obviously colored by our interpretations) and just ASSUME everyone else does, too! We cannot fathom that people, ESPECIALLY PEOPLE WE LOVE AND TRUST, would LIE to us CONTINUALLY and PURPOSEFULLY in order to gain a constant advantage over us!

It is like the thinking of criminals. To most of us, the very IDEA of identity theft would NEVER OCCUR!?! We couldn't even fathom that there is a way to take someone else's identity and rape it for financial gain. It wouldn't even cross our minds....and we wouldn't know *HOW* to do it if someone suggested it! It is FOREIGN thinking to us.

That is PRECISELY WHY manipulative thinking is successful; it, too, is FOREIGN thinking to us! We can't think of it ourselves and can't understand how/why it should be so. We just ASSUME that what our loved one (who is a manipulator) tells us is TRUE.

Eventually, you WILL come to recognize HOW MUCH she has lied to you in the past ON PURPOSE. It WILL anger you. At some point, you will accept it, deal with it, and move forward! It's a roller-coaster, but with self-knowledge, you WILL be able to feel better!

*GREAT JOB on requesting an email re: her questions! That is a masterful job of taking control of the situation and handling it in a way that BEST BENEFITS YOU!!!! Excellent! You're not 'dismissing' her concerns, you're just requiring that they be presented in a way that YOU can process appropriately (without speaking to her)!!!! You ARE a quick-study, Indy!*


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Mrs. SGW and Mr. Indy, come to think about it..

I believe, the biggest loser of this ordeal, when Mr. Indy finally got his divorce and move on with life, has got to be his STBXW.

She had had a MacGyver, a provider, a person who didn't mind being her emotional punching bag, as long as his natural needs are being fulfilled.

She could have kept that MacGyver husband, earning infinite "free meal ticket" (as Mrs. SGW termed it), have someone to yell and bully around when things gone bad, as long as she kept that MacGyver sexually and emotionally satisfied

That good life could have gone indefinetely..

ANd that requirement isn't really that hard to fulfill.. many women provide such satisfaction and connection for their husbands at a regular basis, worldwide.. even in western countries.. 

..and yet she choose mental torture over doing her acceptable part in her marriage. That I really cannot understand. It's like killing the golden goose (of H.C. Andersen fairy tales..).. by sabotaging Mr. Indy's life, she's actually sabotaging her own life as well.. 

Or maybe she considered the golden goose at hand as an ugly duckling? or a big bad wolf?

either way, it's her loss..

Kind of sad, really..

I wish the best for the two of you.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Yes, John...she admits now that she could do those things now and is willing to do so.

I told her that I didn't believe that she would keep up with her side of that maintenance. It has been exactly a year ago when I first reached out online for help trying to rekindle the flame that I thought we once had. She was resistant, pushed me away and was defensive towards me, rather than opening up to the possibility that she wasn't truly providing on her end.
I told her that if she wasn't open to that when I first brought it up, it isn't genuine from her now. I explained it to her that had she brought up something so serious to me about her unhappiness in the marriage that I would have certainly addressed the issue to ensure our marriage remained solid.
But her actions and reactions showed me how much she really valued our marriage and my concerns and feelings. That was the thing that truly hurt me...knowing she didn't really care what I was going through. Not so much concern for my happiness and pleasure. 
I gave her the MMSLP and told her she needs to keep those things in mind if and when she meets another man that she has interest in. It may be the only thing that can help her in the future.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Mr. Indy,

Yes, I kind of understand what you're saying. Nowadays you're not giving her furthermore chances because you're doubting her sincerity. She had had her chances, failed because she didn't take you seriously (after all, you were her emotional punching bag for years, she is getting too much comfortable on getting what she demanded without having to attend to your needs).

Doubly sad, I must say..


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

How are things going IndyTMI?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Things are as good as they can be at the moment. I haven't heard anything further about the filing. I don't think she has received the certified mail as of yet. She took a trip over to Ohio for the weekend to visit with family and an old friend she use to work with. I met with her last night and we had dinner together.
She said she knew we were through and that the comments she now makes are not attempts to convince me otherwise.
She is sad because she feels all alone in the world, as she knows she cannot reconnect with her father. Speaking with her aunt reinforced that fact, as they also see how disconnected he has made himself with the rest of that side of the family.
She would like to move close by her aunt, as she really felt at home while out on their farm. I told her I thought it was important for her to remain close with what family she does have left.
She knows that she wants to be independent and not become a burden on others as her mother was. Her mother had failing health issues and my STBXW wasn't really in a position to care for her and raise her son at the same time. She feels guilty about it, but I told her that it was a lot for her to take on at the time and it was just something out of her control.

For me, I feel so much better without the stress of having her around all of the time worrying about this or that. I've been spending time cleaning up the house and getting things organized. I'm making three piles, sell, give away and throw away.
I've burned several boxes of old paperwork that have built up over the years. She is one to have never thrown away anything, so it has collected over time.

Last Friday I listed one of my dirt bikes on Craigslist and it sold the same day. Now, I have the second one listed, but it isn't getting as much attention because I am asking more for it, as it is my race bike. My supervisor at work has a newer one that he said he would just give to me, so I might as well take advantage of that. I plan on giving him something for it, as he put on some aftermarket parts that make it way more valuable than both of mine combined. 
I plan on racing some hare scrambles this year, so that bike fits that need perfectly.
I'm trying to work out on the bowflex to built up some endurance, but find it difficult to remain faithful to a regular schedule. 
I did pick up a VAR as well, so I will certainly have it on me whenever I do interact with her moving forward. I'm sure her mood will change again once she gets the summons.


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Sounds like your making great progress and making steps to focus on a new future! Way to go, you should feel good about how well you have handled everything. The VAR is a great idea....good protection for the upcoming months.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I found out through FB that she did get the summons today. I haven't heard anything from her...she seems to be in a better spot than I thought...but who knows for sure.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Let's pray for the best for the both of you, Mr. Indy. We never know how your wife's mind works. At one moment she seemed to be understanding, then suddenly *flip* yelling at you again. I really hope this time the realization and understanding will stay, for her own good too. It's better to get a divorce and remain friends, right?


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

IndyTMI...how are things?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I'm good. I have only exchanged a couple of text messages over the course of this entire week. She was accusing me of holding her hostage, as many of her larger belongings are still at the house because she simply doesn't have room for them.
The biggest reason she said that was because she had trouble getting into her email account the other day. I had told her many times that she should change her passwords so I no longer have access to them, but has not done so. I called her out on it and told her it wasn't passing through my bull**** filter.
I then offered up to show her how to change her password so their won't be any type of hostage situation she can accuse me of...but haven't received a response as of yet.

I spoke with her son yesterday. He came to my workplace, as I offered up to install the tail lens on his Jeep that I found for him on an online auction. He just got it back from the shop that replaced his rear axle from an accident a few weeks back. 
I asked him how his mother seemed to be holding up and he said not so well. He said he has a friend that has good ties with a church and was going to make attempts to get her involved with it as well. She needs an outlet...someone other than her counselor that she can confide in. She doesn't really have any friends nor much family to speak of. I realize the lack of friends is a result of how she is...she pushed people away from her in the past due to her actions or inactions with them.

I have been venturing out a bit, went on what was not supposed to have been a date, but the gal had other plans even though I made it perfectly clear going into it that I was not ready to date, but just wanted to gain friendship with someone of the opposite sex. I posted a thread in the Going Through Divorce sub-forum.
I joined a local singles group that's purpose isn't to engage in dating, but rather to allow singles the ability to meet others alike and enjoy various scheduled and planned events together. I have yet to go to any, but will probably do so soon.

Right now I am still working on getting all of the house items in order for upcoming neighborhood garage sales. I purchased some table tennis balls for my table I now have setup in the living room and have one side of the table set up vertical so I can play against myself. I am one tough competitor and always seem to kick my own butt.  It really is a good stress reliever and get a little bit of cardio out of it as well.


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Sounds like your making great progress! Finding new hobbies and new friends is a new adventure...it may be trial and error at first but you'll find your way. Just wanted you to know I think you have handled yourself like true gentleman. ..and showed great love and compassion for you step son and his mom.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> ...I then offered up to show her how to change her password so their won't be any type of hostage situation she can accuse me of...but haven't received a response as of yet...
> I spoke with her son yesterday. He came to my workplace, as I offered up to install the tail lens on his Jeep that I found for him on an online auction. He just got it back from the shop that replaced his rear axle from an accident a few weeks back....


By the beauty of Bilqis..you ARE a MacGyver fixer-type guy, Mr. Indy! 

It's so very nice to know that you're still close with your stepson. That shows your great heart!


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

These few fix-it things I do for those I care about are rewarding in their own sense.
I'm at the point in my life to realize that if it doesn't take much effort on my part to keep others happy, it is effort well worth it, as I gain a sense of satisfaction by helping others that would otherwise cause them more effort on theirs.

While at Al-anon last night, the topic was on tolerance. I have found that had I had the proper boundaries for myself during the relationship with my STBXW, I would not be attending the meetings currently. I would have ended the relationship long ago, as any normal, confident man would not have tolerated the actions and inactions of a partner as my STBXW had shown throughout the relationship. I realize how my low self-worth and lack of confidence were enemies of myself and now I have the power to see them for what they are and know that going forward I have the tools to be successful in a fulfilling relationship with a partner that also has my interests and concerns as an importance in their life.

I have so much to look forward to. I can look back at my history and cry with pity as to how I was and how manipulated I had become. I am a new person today, not like the weak and unconfident self that was once ever so strong. I have a whole new future to look forward to...I am excited for what life will bring...


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> ...These few fix-it things I do for those I care about are rewarding in their own sense.
> I'm at the point in my life to realize that if it doesn't take much effort on my part to keep others happy, it is effort well worth it, as I gain a sense of satisfaction by helping others that would otherwise cause them more effort on theirs...


:smthumbup:

Well, that positive outlook of yours will brings you many rewards in the future. I am glad to know that you're not end up being a bitter person full of hatred. You're a good guy, keep it up, and don't forget to write down your experiences, for the benefit of your upcoming book


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Wow...I am still baffled at the level of trust I have for her, even though she has shown reason to not trust her.
She comes over to the house today to pick up a few more items she wanted to have with her as well as drop off a few of my items she found that was with her stuff that we initially moved to her apartment. While here, someone calls me to inquire about my second bike I had listed for sale. The guy said he would be by later in the evening to look it over. I had the VAR running the entire time she was here.
We go to dinner, stop by the store and get a few things each of us needed and returned to the house. The guy inquiring about the bike shows up, so I go outside to speak with him and show him the bike. It was late and he didn't have a way to haul it, so he said he would be back tomorrow with the money and a trailer.
When I return inside, my STBXW breaks down and confesses to doing something malicious to my tooth brush. She said while I was outside, she had taken my tooth brush and run it around the inside of the drain and then returned it to it's holder. She said that she did that after going through some of her mother's poems that were stored in an antique chest we have in a spare bedroom. She said reading them brought up emotions that ultimately turned her angry at me because I had ended the relationship, so she wanted to do something to hurt me. After she did it, there was a bit of time that elapsed before I returned inside which allowed her to reflect on what she had done and realized how ugly of an act that was and felt bad for doing so. She said she doesn't like that person any more and wants to heal and make that ugly person go away.
She said that I was such a good person and it really made her feel bad, knowing that I would never do something like that to her, so why did she feel the need to lash out at me like that. 
It shows me how her mood can swing from one point to another so quickly. It is a very light version of what happened nearly two months ago when I woke to her raging. Shortly after the big incident, she realized how terrible her actions were and even commented that she had ruined it for us from that point and knew what a bad thing she had done. She fully regrets her actions, but knows there is nothing she can do to change it. She hurts knowing that she is like that and wishes she could change so those types of events didn't ever happen again. She is scared that she will always have trouble controlling herself in the future. I didn't know what to say to her to make her feel better. I realize it is not my job to do that for her any longer. She must find her own path to healing, as I have offered up and done all I feel I can for her.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

I don't know about the laws in your country. But in my country, if a person is aware that he/she has serious mental problems, he/she could check him/herself in a mental health institution and get professional treatment.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

And how many things has she done that she hasn't told you about?

Stop seeing her. She can be a better person for someone else. She is toxic FOR YOU.

Stay away. She is still manipulating you


----------



## Alexandria (Apr 21, 2013)

I don't know what LD means, but other than that, she has issues and you need to move on to someone who shows you affection and someone who trusts you. Maybe I am not hearing the full story.





IndyTMI said:


> I guess I just don't have the patients that some of you other men do...I'm tired of the games.
> 
> I don't feel that I need to or have to wait for some extended period of time to get my sex-life back. We have identified the issues and have responded to them by addressing them head on.
> 
> ...


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Hello Mr. Indy, how are you? are you ok? Is there any progress?


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Things are good. She came over Friday and helped me sort through several boxes of stuff and put much of it in the yard sale. We made around $300, so we celebrated and enjoyed a good dinner out. 
At the moment, she seems to have accepted our situation better than any time before. For the most part, she has stopped rehashing things from the past about failures of mine. I have found that if I agree with those things she points out instead of trying to defend myself, it doesn't give her any additional ammo to fire at me. It simply reinforces why our marriage failed. She had seemed to make attempts to identify anything I did wrong, but would rarely acknowledge any failures on her part. 
I think she was continually trying to point them out as I had given her specific reasons as to why I wanted out of the marriage and she has had difficulty dealing with those facts, as she clearly knows where she failed and regrets her inactions on the matter.

We are getting along fairly well...we seem to be better friends than we ever were lovers. She has found we actually seem to listen to each other better now than when we were together.
On the matter of her messing with my toothbrush and pouring out my lube...we both spoke with our counselor about it separately and while I call it malicious, she calls it mischievous...the counselor calls it sophomoric.

Right now, we are in the 60 day waiting period before a judge will grant the divorce.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Glad to hear that you are making progress. I agree, sometimes we just have to play along "yes, u right, yes yes", to get to the point where an agreement is made . In my country it is called two steps back to gain three steps forward. I hope all will be well for you, Mr. Indy.


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

Indy:

"Mischievous"? No, that would be turning all the hangers on your curtain rod backwards....THAT's mischievous. Your wife is passive/aggressive and ANGRY about the divorce. I think she's still controlling herself in the hopes that the divorce will stop. I think once she REALIZES you two are actually divorced and NEVER getting back together...you should LOOK OUT.


Have you finished "Codependent No More"?
Have you had the locks changed on your house?
Glad you're still wearing a VAR!
I HOPE you will consider cutting ALL TIES (all of them, PERMANENTLY) with this mentally/emotionally UNSTABLE woman! You don't NEED to have any interaction with her. You have NOTHING in common. You have your OWN INDEPENDENT relationship with your GROWN SON. 
*WHY* would you want to be 'friends' with your ex? As codependent as you have been and as unstable as she IS...it's baiting a lion!


...just my 2 cents


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Ok, so here is the deal right now...

I know my STBXW has issues with being able to maintain her composure when dealing with the various things that come up, but she is truly trying to adjust to the situation at hand.
She told me today that right after she was served, she sought out an attorney and got a bit of legal advice and realized if she fights me on anything, it will cost us both more and possibly create a situation where I would not want to help her as much as I have already stated I would commit to. She knows she can't tread on me without it causing her more pain than it is worth.
She thought I was crazy to suggest that we could remain friends, as in her mind, she wished me harm and ill feelings. She has since changed her outlook, as she told me this evening that she does see where I do have her best interest at heart and knows I wouldn't do anything to cause her trouble, so she is dealing with her emotions that tell her to retaliate against me, yet logic and common sense tells her to accept the things she cannot change...hahahahha aha, nothing like following the Serenity Prayer...huh?
I know her mood will change and blame me for the various things that have gone wrong in the marriage, but like always, I will turn the other cheek and once again not hold her accountable for what she will say to me.
I think that this is not necessarily a codependency issue I have that allows me to keep accepting this behavior from her, but more so of the fact that I understand that she has had her own trauma in her life that has caused her to feel as she does, so I have compassion and understanding for that and overlook some of her actions, as they are most certainly temporary and fade once the emotions have been exhausted.
I know...I should not tolerate some of the behavior from her and I fully agree with that, but my empathy cannot allow me to ignore someone in need of help. Maybe there is a bit of codependency in that...
She told me tonight that she is truly thankful for all I have done for her up to this point, as she realizes that I could have just kicked her out and not assisted her at all, so she is quite grateful for what I have volunteered thus far. She sees that I have integrity...something she has not experienced in past relationships.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Mr. Indy,

Well, see here, your MacGyver-ness does gave you advantage. Your integrity shines through, even your STBXwife could see it. 

I won't suggest you to turn to the other cheek too much, though. Your attitude should be: "So you feel bad? Well, it's your own doing. Deal with it. We made mistakes. I suffered a lot, but I quit blaming anybody but myself. You should too".


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Yep...I wrote that last night after tossing down a few beers, so I am always in a much more agreeable and easy going mindset with inebriation. 
I guess the biggest point I was making last night was that although her initial attitude and reactions to most anything I do or say isn't accepted by or agreeable to her, after she gives it more thought, she realizes that I am not out to get her, wish her ill or attempt to do anything underhanded. 
I just wished she would allow her mind time to process things before reacting, but she certainly seems to have difficulty with that, just as she doesn't seem to have any type of firewall between her brain and her mouth.
I sent her a list of assets and how I figured they would be separated and she looked it over and hasn't disputed anything as of yet. I really can't see why she would, as I am foregoing most anything I knew she wanted.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

I sure hope she learn her lessons and change her behavior. I hope her next husband (if she chooses to find another) won't have to suffer like you did.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

So, the STBXW and I decided to take our son out to dinner for his 26th birthday. I drove and swung by her apartment to first pick her up and then onto his house to get him. She asked me to come up first to do something for her. She had me relocate where her PC was sitting in order to make room for a CD holder.
I quickly got it moved and we then proceeded to pick up our son.
Dinner was quite pleasant, as the focus of conversation was about him, what he has been up to and things about his life. She did announce to us that she has a job interview and hopes to be working within a week or two.
When dinner was over, I returned him to his home and we hugged and wished him a happy birthday.
I then drove her to her apartment and as we were just a few minutes away, she starts in about what I plan on doing as far as assistance after the divorce is final. She said that since her job will probably not be able to cover all of her costs, she wanted to be reassured I could assist with her living expenses until she found a cheaper place to live once the lease was up in September. She then brings up things that were going to cause an argument, so I told her we should discuss that another time because all were are going to do is argue if we attempt to discuss it at the moment. She immediately gets upset and starts telling me about my failings in the marriage...starts to belittle me, calls me names and mocks me.
I did not return any of her insults, but told her this is exactly part of the problem we had with the relationship because anytime she became upset, rather than allow us to discuss issues as adults, she has to cut me down and act like a child.
All she did last night was reinforce my feelings about her and why we can no longer be together. Our divorce should be final sometime next month.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

IndyTMI said:


> Our divorce should be final sometime next month.


Good to hear, Indy. The sooner the better.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I went on my first date this past Thursday eve...well, it was more of a meetup than a date.
I can't remember ever receiving this kind of attention from my STBXW.

This gal really seemed to be into me and she said I was a very good kisser. Funny thing is (well, not so funny really) I haven't been able to or had the opportunity to kiss like that for well over 10 years, so it's a wonder I still knew how. It felt quite nice.
My mind is full of happy at the moment.
We are both going to be at the Indy 500 track this coming Thursday and Friday in different suites for the companies we work for, so we are planning on hooking up again...I am so looking forward to seeing her again. She is all kinds of yummy!


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Careful, Mr. Indy.. one step at a time.. don't rush it.. 

But anyway, good to know you're slowly going back to normal!


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Careful, Mr. Indy.. one step at a time.. don't rush it..
> 
> But anyway, good to know you're slowly going back to normal!


Oh...I know to tread lightly.

I let her know where things are and that I am foreign to female attention, so I don't want to come off as too needy or too distant while trying to manage my yearning for it.

I just sent her an email asking for her to set the pace for things going forward...as I want her to feel comfortable with how things proceed so I don't screw it up.

I jumped on another forum about dating and sought out some advice about how to proceed with this...

Well, I knew for some time in my marriage that I was unhappy and know that if any warning signs do come up with this new relationship, I will be quick to notice and definitely think twice about tolerating them. That was the biggest weakness of mine in the past...tolerating intolerable things from my ex. As long as I have sound boundaries and don't allow them to be violated, I feel I will be fine. I have learned what boundaries are now...
Had my ex not raged and physically abused me, I would probably still be in that sickness today. She finally gave me justifiable reasons to leave her and only now have I come to realize just how much crap I tolerated and accepted for far too long. I think I will be hyper sensitive to such treatment and abuse in the future.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Just make sure you don't go from one extreme to another


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Good Luck IndyTMI hope things are going well for you.


----------



## Kari (Feb 17, 2012)

IndyTMI, please give us an update and let us know if things are OK.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Things are progressing along just dandy at this point. She has pretty well accepted everything and it is amicable.
She decided to work with my attorney as far as working up an agreement on the asset split and isn't going to contest anything.
I think she finally sees that I am not out to screw her over.
She is supposed to start working soon, so it will definitely lighten the burden on what I was going to pay.
She said she finally sees where we actually can become friends after the divorce.
She did tell me that she will probably be really sad the day of the divorce and knowing I will be searching elsewhere for what I felt was lacking in our marriage.
Overall, we are getting along pretty good....way better than I thought possible with her.

Having this time living alone, I have been able to grow a little and not have the compulsion to rush into another relationship...the need to have a woman in my life right away. I like time to myself. 

I volunteered to be a Big Brother and had my interview today. Everything seems to be in order, so I will be able to start mentoring very soon. There is some training they will run me through, but then it will be a great outlet for my empathy. I so look forward to helping out some child in need of a good role model.


----------



## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Big Brother huh..cool. Know this it can be very difficult. Most of the kids are problem children. My brother did it. It's not easy.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> Things are progressing along just dandy at this point. She has pretty well accepted everything and it is amicable.
> She decided to work with my attorney as far as working up an agreement on the asset split and isn't going to contest anything.
> I think she finally sees that I am not out to screw her over.


:smthumbup:



> She is supposed to start working soon, so it will definitely lighten the burden on what I was going to pay.


:smthumbup::smthumbup:



> She said she finally sees where we actually can become friends after the divorce.


For the sake of her son, who is close to you.. and for her sanity too. It's better to end up being friends.



> She did tell me that she will probably be really sad the day of the divorce and knowing I will be searching elsewhere for what I felt was lacking in our marriage.


Her fault. Had she ceased to punish _you_ for other people's sins long ago when you're still married, then the divorce won't have happened. A good reason NOT to marry a broken person again in the future.



> Having this time living alone, I have been able to grow a little and not have the compulsion to rush into another relationship...the need to have a woman in my life right away. I like time to myself.


Good choice. Good thinking. Everytime you see a beautiful woman, who _seems_ to like you and _seems_ to understand you in the beginning... NEVER forget that they are capable to pull a switch on you as soon as your wedding night! Find someone who's genuinely INTO you, accepting you totally, someone who value your MacGyver-ness but also your flaws and your HDness. Do NOT marry another version of your former wife.



> I volunteered to be a Big Brother and had my interview today. Everything seems to be in order, so I will be able to start mentoring very soon. There is some training they will run me through, but then it will be a great outlet for my empathy. I so look forward to helping out some child in need of a good role model.


Don't understand what is a Big Brother thing.. but make sure you don't forget to start writing bits and pieces for your book about "How To Get Out Of A Toxic Marriage".. or "Do Not Marry A Broken Person" 

Have a nice weekend, Mr. Indy!


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Oh, how exhaustive this divorce process is....

About a week ago she comes over to the house and wants to finalize the asset agreement and wanted to know what all I spent money on from my personal account. I really had nothing to hide, other than a few charges to dating websites, so I blacked those out and had it available when she came over.
She inquired what the blacked out lines were...trying to guess, so I simply opened up and told her.
She was a bit taken back that one of the charges was just two days after I left her. It hurt her knowing I was already looking for someone else that soon. She accused me of giving up on our relationship way before then. She's right, I did give up before then and was just relieved she gave me what I felt was a justifiable reason to finally leave her. I told her this.
So, after she calmed down, we went through and determined agreeable separations and amounts for the various assets and what was spent from the accounts.

We needed to come to agreement on the assets and have us both sign a legal document indicating the agreement. She previously agreed to have my attorney work it up and she would sign it.
The following day, she told me to hang on and not submit it to my attorney yet, as she had a few modifications to make first.
Well, this now seems to be dragging out and I now feel it is just another delay tactic. I am about at the point where I am going to tell her that if she doesn't get this finalized, I will just allow the court to decide, as I believe they will not be as generous as I have been on the asset separation. 
Anyhow, this evening she starts to text me several things about our relationship and how I didn't do this or that and how I just didn't see what a good thing I had when I had it.
Towards the end of her texts, she becomes angered and is telling me how shallow my thinking is...how I didn't try hard enough to make it work.
She then wished everyone that assisted me some very ill wishes to which I care not to repeat. 
I told her that I was going to see the counselor at least one more time and told her she should schedule an appointment as well and I would pay for it.
So she wants to come over tomorrow to pick up the paperwork we had documented all of the expenses and assets on, as well as have me replace one of her turn signals that is no longer working. When I was at the store, I picked up some extra bottled water for her that she knew I had for her. This evening when I did some additional shopping, I saw some of her favorite chocolates, so I picked those up as well.
I sent her a text to tell her about the chocolates, but didn't hear anything back. 
Just before I started typing this post, she sent me another text that simply says, "I love you so much!"

She still can't let go of me and she is hurting because I already have. I asked her in a text message what is it I can do to help get her closure and I now realize the only way to do that is to stop being nice to her....to stop doing things for her. I have to stop texting her altogether. I have to do exactly what many of you have told me to do but I haven't followed. That will certainly be easier once the divorce is final.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Mr. Indy,

Please let me poetic at this moment.

".Those are the last titanic gasps of a Leviathan that is about to be slain.."

Don't give up, BE FIRM, don't let her even think that you would consider returning to her. 

Remember how cruel, cunning and manipulative she has been. Don't you ever forget your pain. Let your pain be your shield, guarding you from further manipulation.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Indy, thanks so much for giving us another update. Yes, the divorce process is painful and, like you, I was so anxious to simply get it over with and behind me. Moreover, if your STBXW has strong BPD traits, it will be especially painful to walk away. If you experience what I did, you will feel like you are walking out on a hurt little girl whom you still love. I could never look into my exW's eyes without seeing that little girl who had been hurt so badly in her childhood.


----------



## badcompany (Aug 4, 2010)

Good to see things are moving along.
Regarding re-marrying, I simply wouldn't. Things are getting too twisted with the courts and divorce laws in my opinion.
This doesn't mean you can't be in a loving relationship again, live together, etc etc...I just wouldn't get officially married again, IMO.
Be careful with being strait up and forward with what you want from your SO, you don't want to be manipulated and get the old "bait and switch".


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

So, it looks like my last paragraph from my last post is what I must do because she has proved that we can't be friends.

She said she wanted to come over so she could ride her bike and also discuss the asset division a bit more.

As soon as she came over, we got the bikes out and started on our ride.
During the ride, we were discussing the assets and she kept wanting to run through the whole issue of why we were separated and how I didn't try hard enough and was just giving up. She was pointing the finger at me for everything and even though I accepted and acknowledged my failings, she refused to do the same for herself. As we were riding through the neighborhood she had come up behind be and would goose me or rub on my butt. I asked her to not do it anymore, but she kept saying that she certainly could still do so because we were still married. She proceeded to do it a couple more times even though I asked her not to. I was getting pretty angry at this point. I told her the next time she did it I was going straight home and she could go home and have lunch all by herself.
I rode behind her for the remainder of the trip to ensure I would not get touched by her again. Along the trip she kept saying that I owed her way more than a 50/50 split and wanted me to give her maintenance payments for 2 years. She said I need to feel the pain for what I have caused. She then said that a 50/50 split would be fine only if I had sex with her one last time. I asked her if she was frigging kidding? Not going to happen!

So, we rode for a total of 13 miles. We were both pretty sweaty and she mentioned something about wanting to take a shower before we ate, so she wanted to shower at the house. She didn't have any change of cloths with her, so she asked if she could wear something of mine. As soon as we entered the house, she lunged toward me, trying to grab me in the crotch and butt, I physically had to restrain her and told her to please stop because she will later look back at her actions and will feel terrible for losing her dignity like that. She didn't seem to care.

She then said she needed to go ahead and shower, so she rips her cloths off downstairs in the living room and starts to walk up the stairs to my bedroom where the shower is. There are open windows at the top of the stairs, so she asked me if I would close them, I said absolutely not. So, she puts her cloths back on and I convince her that it isn't going to work out for us to cook out, so if she wants food from me she will just have to go sweaty. She agreed so we drove to the nearest burger joint and sat outside and ate, all while she was still going on about this and that.

I quickly realized that she just isn't getting it...she doesn't fully get the fact that I am done with her. So I decide it's time for me to anti up and give her some food for thought. I told her that I was in contact with a woman online and we have been chatting back and forth. I even showed her a picture of her.
She then tried to make me feel bad for not waiting until the divorce is final. I told her that to me, the divorce is final and I don't need a judge's signature to tell me I am a free man. That is just a legal technicality and I was pursuing other relationships regardless. I had to shove it in her face for her to come to terms as to where things were at.

That still didn't get through her thick skull...she still was going on about my failings and how it was all my fault. I figured it was time to try the slam dunk approach with her then. I told her the truth about how many dates I have been on since our separation. She seemed to be in a bit of shock. She said I had really hurt her badly because of that and she could never forgive me. She tried to make me feel as small as possible, but her feelings don't really matter to me much at this point.
I have come a long way with how I felt when I first filed compared to where I am now. At this point, I really don't want to help her more than the court says because even though I had offered up considerably more than they will reward her, she doesn't seem to appreciate those things and somehow feels she is entitled to far more.
I will be so glad to be done with this woman...so happy to be away from that sickness.


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Keep moving forward IndyTMI! You have a great future a head of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> So, it looks like my last paragraph from my last post is what I must do because she has proved that we can't be friends.
> 
> She said she wanted to come over so she could ride her bike and also discuss the asset division a bit more.
> 
> ...


Mr. Indy,

First of all.. I must commend your incredible memory to remember all the details of your latest encounter. The name IndyTMI surely suits you! 

Secondly, I must commend your incredible power of self-restraint and your commitment _not_ to do anything sexual with your STBXW again. Come to think about it, it was just a few months ago that you're telling us how much you want to get at least a bit of regular sex from your so-called LD wife. Now she's again trying to use that weapon against you, but you're now immune to that.

Thirdly, since she has become so unreasonable, I think it's time for you to seriously considering the services of a good divorce lawyer.

I wish you good luck in all of your future endeavor. And I really hope your wife see the light, and understand that you _are_ still able to be her friend, if she would just let you be, instead of making things difficult for both of you.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

IndyTMI said:


> I will be so glad to be done with this woman...so happy to be away from that sickness.


Boy, do I know that feeling, Indy. I was so glad when my D was finally final. It felt like I had emerged from a long long tunnel into the light. At the D hearing, my exW still was unwilling to accept any responsibility. Amazingly, when the lady judge asked her (on the stand) if she wanted the D, my exW said that she really did not want it.

When the judge heard that, she simply rolled her eyes and granted the D. The judge knew that my exW had had me arrested for "brutalizing" her, had obtained a R/O preventing me from returning to my own home for 18 months, and had filed papers seeking the D (after I had been the first to file papers). 

As you know so well, people with strong BPD traits are so filled with self loathing and shame that their subconscious mind protects their fragile egos from seeing too much of reality. They therefore are very well protected -- at a subconscious level -- from taking responsibility for any of their own actions. Yet, if they are to have any chance at all of confronting their issues, they must be held fully accountable for those actions and allowed to suffer the logical consequences of their bad choices.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I still think you're leading her on. I don't think you're a very nice person for what you're doing. If you're done, then be done. Don't go on bike rides or have her for dinner. You've been stringing her along for months, attempting to inflict maximum damage as far as I can see.


----------



## Visual1 (Apr 16, 2013)

Don't rub it in her face by telling her how manny dates you went on. That is not nice. Technically, she is still your wife.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I guess I just don't understand...clearly by me filing for divorce is a great indicator I want the relationship to be over.

I have had relationships in my younger years where even after I broke it off, we could still be friends. I don't see why marriage has to be different.

I certainly had no intentions to lead her on.

I had to rub it in her face because she just wouldn't get it through her head that I didn't want a relationship with her any longer.
She was showing desperation by grabbing me and stripping down nude in front of me. She was having difficulty understanding that I was done, so I figured that if she knew I was dating would be something that she could grasp...I think it did in the interim, but can just imagine she still doesn't quite get it. I know her attempts to hold onto me are not over.
I am done with trying to be social with her, as she proved she cannot be civil around me. I did honestly try to be her friend, but with her that is just impossible.

WorkingOnMe, I sent her what you posted and am waiting for her response to it, as I had always been up front about my intentions with her about wanting to remain as friends all along.


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Hang in there IndyTMI, you have gone above and beyond to try and help her adjust. Your right it is now time to move on with your life and accept that you may not be able to be friends with her for now. You tried, feel good about the fact that you did the best you could for her and her son and move forward with your new life. ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Indy,

I would stay away from your ex. Her behavior screams DV arrest. No contact as much as possible!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

IndyTMI said:


> I guess I just don't understand...clearly by me filing for divorce is a great indicator I want the relationship to be over.
> 
> I have had relationships in my younger years where even after I broke it off, we could still be friends. I don't see why marriage has to be different.
> 
> ...


You're spending time which comes across like dating, like the bike riding. Meet in a neutral place to discuss divorce, keep it to business only, etc.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Sanity said:


> Indy,
> 
> I would stay away from your ex. Her behavior screams DV arrest. No contact as much as possible!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mr. Indy,

THIS is actually a good advice. STAY AWAY. Do not meet her anywhere except in public place where everyone could see her antics. It's very very very easy for her to throw you to jail simply by filing a fake DV report, and I am afraid that they will take her word against yours.


----------



## Wanting1 (Apr 26, 2012)

I don't understand why you want to be friends with your STBX. I can understand being friendly with her. I think it's a good thing to aspire to be in the same room with an ex and not be spitting venom, but really, friends is too much. Especially at this point, as your relationship is drawing to a close. She is still emotionally invested in you, actively trying to re-engage you. Your continuing to allow the level of contact that you have, not only gives her false hope, it is keeping her from being able to detach from you, to begin her own healing process. Maybe at some point in the future, you can have an acquaintance/friendship (without the quasi-dates) for the sake of your son, but trying to force this to happen now is keeping you both tethered to the past.

Also, keep in mind, you are looking forward to moving on in a new, healthy relationship with another woman. Do you think it's fair to her (whoever she may be) that you would still be so emotionally enmeshed with your ex? I would respect a man who could remain on friendly terms with an ex. I would suspect that a man was not over his ex if he still went on bike rides and took her out to dinner (because they are still friends).


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Thank you for the words of wisdom. I will certainly take it to heart and execute it as such.

The one thing I can think of as to why she would not call me on a DV is the fact that she is currently not working and an interruption to my income would great affect her living arrangements. But, when someone is in desperation as she is, logic does not always overrule other emotional thoughts.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

*silly mode on*

Mr. MacGyver, call Wonder Woman to protect you. At least you'll be safe from DV charges 

*silly mode off*


----------



## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

IndyTMI said:


> Thank you for the words of wisdom. I will certainly take it to heart and execute it as such.
> 
> The one thing I can think of as to why she would not call me on a DV is the fact that she is currently not working and an interruption to my income would great affect her living arrangements. But, when someone is in desperation as she is, logic does not always overrule other emotional thoughts.


Because emotional desperate creatures will do anything to regain control regardless of the final outcome. This is why you need to practice risk management and reduce your personal risk. In fact if she shows up unannounced and tries to barge in call 911 and let them hear her. They will send a deputy and you have a record of her behavior. 

Consider changing phone numbers as well and do things in writing or text as much as possible. Verbal agreements mean nothing.


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Yeah...**** is getting real...real quick!
So, I've gathered up everything left in the house that belongs to her and arranged for her and her son to come over and go through what goes to her apartment and what goes to storage. Pretty much as soon as they arrive, she starts in on me about this and that. He goes outside for a moment to unlock his jeep and she really gets into this blame game and advances towards me. As I am backing up, she lunges at me and smacks me really hard with her full force in the face. Her son comes back in and grabs her to restrain her. She is in full fury mode and won't listen to either one of us. I had tried to ask her not to do this...not to act like this in front of her son, but she didn't care.
He forced her out of the house and they set in his Jeep for a few moments and then drove away.

He sent me a text and said he would come back another time without her to collect her belongings.
I apologized that he had to see that. I think he knows how his mother is...I am just sorry he had to witness it first hand like this.

So, my rule was that she wasn't to be here without the presence of another person, now she is not welcome here at all!

Last week I contacted my attorney and had them request a date for the final hearing...I so can't wait for this madness to be over.

I am not even going to try to ever be her friend again...friends don't treat one another in such a way.


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

I am so sorry things are getting to this point with her....but you do know she has a violent side. Please take procautions and make sure your attorney is in the know. Stay strong IndyTMI your almost to the end of this road and on to a the rest of your life. Keep looking forward!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Indy, for a woman whose greatest fear is abandonment, this period is the most dangerous time for you. Your determination to leave her is just now sinking in and she is having to deal with that fear. I therefore applaud your decision to never allow her back in your home. If it is ever legally necessary to do, be sure to request a police escort for her. 

Meanwhile, even though you've changed the locks on the home, it would be prudent to make sure nobody has broken in whenever you return to the "empty" house -- by checking the rooms.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> Yeah...**** is getting real...real quick!
> So, I've gathered up everything left in the house that belongs to her and arranged for her and her son to come over and go through what goes to her apartment and what goes to storage. Pretty much as soon as they arrive, she starts in on me about this and that. He goes outside for a moment to unlock his jeep and she really gets into this blame game and advances towards me. As I am backing up, she lunges at me and smacks me really hard with her full force in the face. Her son comes back in and grabs her to restrain her. She is in full fury mode and won't listen to either one of us. I had tried to ask her not to do this...not to act like this in front of her son, but she didn't care.
> He forced her out of the house and they set in his Jeep for a few moments and then drove away.
> 
> ...


So sorry to hear this. Domestic violence could happened to a man as well. I must applaud you for not striking back. I hope her son would be able to talk some sense into her. I agree with MineForever and Uptown about safety and legal precautions. Please follow their advice. We're praying for your safety!


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Today is our 14th anniversary.

She sends me a text that says, "Happy Anniversary!"

I didn't respond, nor do I plan to.
All I can think about is how can it be even be close to being happy? The only thing I'm happy about is the fact that it's almost over!


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Indy, Happy No-15th-Anniversary-with-That-Woman!


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I just received notification of the final hearing date. It's not until Sept. 26th. They must have quite the backlog of cases.

On a brighter note...I have cut out all communication with the STBXW and things are quite nice lately. 

I doubt I will post anything else unless she pulls some crazy crap between now and the final hearing date.

Just want to thank all who have offered advice, both stern and kind words have all been appreciated!


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Indy, best of luck on September 26th. I hope there is no drama to distract you between now and then. Come September, you may want to start shopping for a great bottle of Champagne to have on hand for the evening of the 26th. It will be your Happy-No-15th-Anniversary-with-That-Woman Day!


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Best of wishes to you as you move forward to a new future! As a side note l hope your name sake (Indianapolis) is going to have good weather next week...flying in there tomorrow for a week to enjoy one of my favorite cities!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

So, I had my final hearing today and she came without any representation. 
Nothing she brought was admissible because there were no affidavits.
She tried to cause another continuance, but the judge said she had plenty of time to seek additional counsel, so I was awarded the decree as I had sought.
As of today, I am officially divorced.

Thank you very much to all who have contributed towards this thread, your advice and support, as well as those counter to what I was doing is much appreciated. You really helped guide me along the way and I would have not been in as good of a position had it not been for your support.
Thank you all! 

I am celebrating with a few of my friends this evening and now feel I have finally broke free from the madness that was once my marriage.

Tonight, there will be cheers and I will raise my glass in a silent toast to all of you!


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Your new beginning starts tonight...make it the life you want. Best wishes, remember you deserve to be happy and loved!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Indy, thanks for returning to give us an update on how your divorce process turned out. I am so happy for you that you've finally emerged from the long dark tunnel. I wish you the very best and I congratulate you for persisting in your effort to free yourself. Have a great time celebrating with your friends this evening, Indy. You deserve it!


----------

