# ILYBINILWY with no affair?



## BayouPoet (May 16, 2013)

My question is this: is it possible to have the ILYBINILWY speech without a fully mature EA/PA? And can her lingering resentment and anger at me for crushing her one-sided fantasies with her potential OM prevent her from wanting to re-commit, and she needs time to get over her delusions before the fog lifts and she is willing to work on our marriage? Or is it time for me to cut my losses, figure out a separate living situation, work out a separation agreement, get full or at least 50% custody of our S, and start the year-long waiting process for a D and let her find out that she lost a good husband for no good reason?

Background:
My wife and I have been married for just over a year, and have been dating on-off for 5 years. We have one son, 19 months old now. We had a child before marrying, and sort of married on a whim, when our son was 4 months old, in what was a small but still meaningful little ceremony performed by our favorite hippie professor from our alma mater university. The marriage was rather spontaneous, and made urgent by the fact that she needed dental work and needed to get on my health plan but we needed to be married to do so. In retrospect, our marriage was rather rushed and I now realize the importance of the traditional love, marriage, kids scenario, even though that doesn't always work out, either. 

A few months ago, she gave me the ILYBINILWY speech. I was crushed, but I also recognized a lot of things I had been doing to the detriment of our relationship--mostly not always listening properly and taking active interest in her interests and volunteering to do art, exercise, etc with her when she wants. She mentions that I don't "mirror" her emotions the way a good couple should, i.e., be happy when she is happy and be able to share in her emotions. She thinks good couples share emotions and that's why old couples look alike (?). I have taken ownership for my contributions to the marital breakdown and have taken many steps to improve, and she even says she notices a big change but is afraid I will just slip back into old patterns again. 

After the speech, I started reading everything I could to start to remedy the situation, and on the advice I got, started to snoop around to try and find evidence of an EA or PA. First I asked her, and got her to admit that she had a crush on someone else, but it was just a stupid crush and she didn't act on it. Actually, she didn't really admit it, but she can't lie very well and couldn't help but smile and cover her face when I asked her. She's not a good liar, which is good for me!

So I snooped--phone and text records, facebook msgs going back 5 years, and digging around in her personal files on computer and phone. I felt bad about doing this, but she has always snooped my phone and FB since we started dating so I didn't feel too bad. What I found was disturbing: she had written lists of things I did that made her angry or upset. Some of them small and silly, like chewing loudly, some of them more important like not coming home at the time I said I would (I easily get absorbed into my work and lose track of time), me being lazy about getting up in the morning (I later discovered I have severe allergies to dust mites which live in beds and pillows and sap my energy every night), or getting passively angry or upset when I was stuck with the baby and she was going out, even when I said I'd watch him. I realize that she had a lot of legitimate griefs, but she should/could have communicated them to me. She also even wrote that she "hated who she lived with," our marriage was crumbled, she was miserable with me, and was looking forward to being happy.

Here's the worse part: she was developing an extremely intense--but one sided--infatuation with a friend and colleague of mine. I had no clue, and even allowed her to go out alone to events like plays and paddle trips where she knew he would be, because I thought by doing fun things she might get in a better mood and maybe that would help us as a couple. I didn't suspect anything, and I even thought that him being there was good since he would watch over her. I was totally naive to the idea that she might be interested. We could have done some of these things together, but our only baby-sitting option is my aunt and she's just not in good health to watch our S that often. I thought I was being a good H by allowing her a little alone time to do fun things with other people when we couldn't find a babysitter to go together. So I think part of her attraction was the high and the relief she felt just getting away from the house and baby for a while. 
She wrote a lot of mushy pie in the sky stuff about him being attractive and understanding her sadness and how she just felt so good being around him and dreamt about him. She doesn't know the guy as well as I do--so I know for a fact that she is just projecting qualities she wants in a partner onto him. 

It didn't go anywhere--I know this guy and I don't think he would do that to me. But I verified as well--nothing from his end, either phone, txt, email or FB, that suggested he was anything but polite and courteous to his friend's wife. But I'm not so naive as to think that anyone is beyond cheating, especially after dealing with all this. I confronted her about it, and told her I read her stuff. She was extremely angry at me, told me that it wasn't my business, etc etc, but she hasn't written anything since and has deleted everything she did write (as far as I can tell). We talked about it since then, and I think she understands that she was projecting a lot of what she was missing from us onto him. I know she is not calling or txting him, since I still check her FB and phone records from time to time. She still wants to be his friend and hang out, but I told her that I do not feel comfortable with her hanging out with him unless I am there as well. Thing is, he's a nice guy, a friend, and as long as I keep my current job, I will have to interact and work with him regardless. If my wife and I smooth things out, I wouldn't be opposed to having him, and his girlfriend, as a family friend. And besides, I really do think he knows not to cross the line and didn't--in her writings, she lamented over the fact that he made no moves, she wondered why he didn't return her glances, she didn't understand why he was resistant to hanging out with her alone. She didn't understand why b/c she was in the early stages of fog. I think he may have been cheated on in the past with a long term g/f of his, and he is probably a bit wiser than her about boundaries and such, while she's sort of naive and think love is special and falls out of the sky--or from dreams--and things just happen when they are supposed to.

Her response to our problems is to do a trial separation. She thought at first that she could use the little bit of money she made to get her own apt., but since then her part-time job has made it clear that they don't have the capacity to give her more than a few hrs per week. After lots of arguing and resistance to this on my end, and me making clear that I see a separation as a step to divorce and not reconciliation, she still just wants the space and to be alone. I am now ready--she has pushed me far enough that I realize there is only one option that I can work on by myself--and that is moving on by myself. I don't want her to be miserable by forcing her to stay with me if she doesn't want to, and I feel certain that if we separate, she'll finally start to realize that she's more responsible for her miserableness than I am.

She initially agreed to MC, but after one session, didn't want to go back. The MC told her that MC takes two partners, and for it to work, one partner can't have one foot our of the door. She says that she is still not in love with me and she doesn't know if her feelings will ever come back, she is too angry with me, and right now doesn't think she could ever be intimate with me again. I am continuing counseling, because regardless of what happens, I need some support and need to sort out my own problems and issues to become a better person. 

Thanks for reading and taking the time to comment. I really appreciate you all.


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## mattsmom (Apr 2, 2013)

BayouPoet,

It is absolutely possible for someone to "fall out of love" with their partner without having an affair. I wonder, though, in your case if she was ever really in love to begin with. You stated that you "married on a whim" so that she could be on your health insurance. 

You mention that you did a lot of things to the detriment of your relationship. The things you listed, however, should not have been the downfall of a truly loving relationship. Either there was more on both sides that you're not comfortable posting about, or she was just not into being married and is projecting the blame onto you.

In response to your final question, if she is unwilling to participate in counseling or take any responsibility for her part in the failure of your marriage, there is very little chance that things will get better IMO. You can't make a marriage work all by yourself, no matter how badly you want to.

I wish you the very best,
Mattsmom


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

ok, first of all, how good is this friend?? supposedly they were writing back and forth for a while and he said nothing about it to ya??? that's not a friend, sorry.

Second, you don't leave your home!!! if she needs space, let her go. She's in a fog right now, she's not thinking straight and she causing more damage than good, to both of you. Give her exactly what she wants......OUT. Then do the 180: 
The Healing Heart: The 180
and if that doesn't get her head back on straight, im afraid theres nothing you can do. Good luck


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## BayouPoet (May 16, 2013)

@Mattsmom
Thanks for the reply. There of course is more background, but there really is nothing as far as I can see that would have contributed to a total breakdown of our marriage. Having the baby was super tough for her, she had no idea what it would be like. She suffered from post-partum for a while and has few close friends and no family in this area. We were certainly in love while dating, but I did break it off with her twice during the first year or so due to not being ready for commitment (I was just graduating and thinking of traveling away). There is probably some residual hurt that never went away from that. I think she's been going through low level depression for a while, is unhappy and is having a bit of a pre-mid life crisis in a way. She spent a lot of time and borrowed a decent pile of money to get her degree, and is now finding out that she should have spent her summers pursuing internships instead of running off on vacations. I'll post more background later, maybe it will shed more light.

@Thumper
To clarify, there was no writing back and forth. The writing was more like her personal journals. His contact to her has been limited, and I can see from FB msgs and txts that nothing untoward is coming from his end. Just fantasies on her end.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

ILYBINILWY is another way of saying you don't want to have sex anymore, now usually a big chunk of the time it's because of an affair but since you rules it out, she has desexualized you for some reason


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## BayouPoet (May 16, 2013)

Also, I got some legal advice, and I don't have to worry about "abandoning the household" if I decide to stay at my aunt's. 
I am still paying rent, all the bills, food, etc, everything. Her job barely even covers the daycare required for her to do it--its more like a delayed internship than a part time job. There is no real alimony system left in our state, and my advice was that if separation is the only thing that can make a difference, we can either separate in-house (which we are to a degree--she sleeps in the living room), or I can move, but financially there's no way she can afford anything for the moment, and I'm tired of living like this. I need a direction to move towards--either R or D, she hasn't shown real interest in working towards R at this point, and if it's D then we have to start living apart.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

ok sorry BP, I read that wrong. ok good, friend is still a friend !!

The issue I have with you moving out is that you want her to see HER reality, not yours. Do what you have to do, but the point of it is so she's sees the grass isn't greener, not you. 

At this point you are NOT supposed to care about what she needs to do to take care of herself, that will no longer be your job if it comes down to a D. She wants to see what life is like without you, show her the door.


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## BayouPoet (May 16, 2013)

@almostrecovered: Yes, she's definitely desexualized me. Do you know anything more about this? Is it a studied phenomenon? Are there any resources I can find where I can learn more about this?

@Thumper: I hear ya, I wish I could kick her to the curb, but the problem is that the only place she has to go without a source of income is her parent's house, which is 600 miles away. I WILL NOT let her take my son away, he is my shining light. So I'm at a loss of what to do for the moment, other than the plan I just gave. Sure, she can start looking for jobs and an apt of her own, but it will take a while, and I'm seriously ready to start day one of the 365 days I need to get a D. I'm young, I am more than capable of getting a loving partner, and I'm ready to start that process.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

well some of the men on here think if you follow the whole alpha thing you will get better results. Personally I am one to think that your wife should love you for who you are. But that said, confidence goes a long ways towards improvement. Ultimately I think improving one's self is the best path towards improving your relationships.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

Good for you BP, stay strong, and prepare yourself for the rough days as well. 

Maybe let her move out, without the kid, and you pay half for say 30 or 60 days? Then cut her off, for her to get out of the daze, you have to get her out of her comfort zone.

I'll be thinking about you, good luck, and don't forget to come back for more advice/tips, great community here at TAM, or just post when your having a bad day, it does make you feel better.


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## BayouPoet (May 16, 2013)

@almostrecovered: I've read the MMSL Primer, it has some good points, I agree. But the thing is, I've tested it a bit by flirting. I get great results from other attractive women, of all ages! I have a tendency to let my guard down with her, and maybe express some more of my fears and not be as "alpha" as possible 100% of the time. I gave a public presentation recently, and my female co-worker invited me out to dinner afterward and tried to get me drunk. I probably could have brought it further if I wanted to. 
For some reason, it's like my W has blocked me off, built up walls, and refuses to peek through. I know that I can do more to improve our M, but I really don't think things were so bad that she should be this defensive. And I feel bad for her because if we divorce or if I stop supporting her, she'll be an absolute mess on her own right now and that will be detrimental to my son.
There's something more going on, and right now I just wanna find out so that I don't ever repeat that mistake again, whether with her or without.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I get it, if she won't tell you what's wrong you can't "fix" it

I sense you are a problem solver like me, I require data all the time to make decisions and when my wife gets cryptic or withholds what she wants or feels I get frustrated rather quickly.

You may have to explain to her that divorce is in the cards if you she can't be forthcoming in what needs to be done in order to save it


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

You asked in the OP "
So my question, after all this, is: is it possible to have the ILYBINILWY speech without a fully mature EA/PA"

My answer is YES, it is possible. It has happened to me, not once, but twice. Its hard to say from your posts if this is the case with your W or not....


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## some_guy_mn (Mar 4, 2013)

Yes, you can have ILYBINILWY w/o an Affair. I'm at that point with my spouse.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I have been there twice with my STBX.

First time, I thought we worked things out. This time (2 years later) he pulled the same crap and I filed divorce.

Ain't nobody got time for that.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

BayouPoet said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> First, thanks for all the longtime posters on here for giving their advice and creating a free space for people to talk about marriage issues. I've already learned quite a bit from the threads and related blogs and books like MMSL, Love Languages, and so on. Now I need my own personal advice. Here goes:
> 
> ...


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## BayouPoet (May 16, 2013)

@Entropy:
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I think you may have read a little more into what I wrote, so I have edited my OP a bit for clarity and poor word choice. I get the idea that I could have been more vigilant, especially when there were some flags that our relationship was not in the best shape. But I also think that I shouldn't have to constantly be a private investigator in our marriage and stop her from wanting to have friends or having appropriate friendships with other men, as long as she respects my boundaries. I strongly believe in freedom and personal space, within bounds. Kinda like marriage civil liberty. If I have probable cause, I get a "marriage warrant", bust down her door of privacy, and search the place for signs of wrongdoing. But if I don't have probable cause, I don't think it's reasonable or healthy for me to do those things. Trust runs both ways. She has violated my trust and knows that right now. I guess I'm just not interested in a partner who requires me to constantly keep them in bounds like a child. I'll mate guard if/when necessary, but ultimately I'm not even interested in a partner who doesn't respect me enough to be open about her feelings and keep herself from crossing boundaries. 
In this case, I think she was having some feelings for him, was writing them out in hopes of understanding them better, and she gave me the ILYBINILWY speech long before she crossed any physical lines or even got a reciprocated EA started. Crushes happen. They are biological, but not impossible to resist. I've had them for OW while we were dating, but never acted on them and did not get drawn into fantasy-building. She knows this...maybe this is why she always snooped my phone and FB, and this is why I never really got angry at her for it. She attempted honesty, maybe a bit late, but not so late that I can't forgive her for it if she decides to fully apologize and commit to rebuilding us.
Could I be wrong? Sure. If I am, and I find out she lied about the extent, she's history, he's being exposed to his g/f, his father--who'd kick his ass for me, and possibly his boss. But I don't have any reason at this point to think otherwise. Which is why I framed the OP as a question.
That said, I don't appreciate being called a cuckold or hotwifer. I don't think I was "letting her date." I know you are trying to help here, but either knock it off or bring your help elsewhere.


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## BayouPoet (May 16, 2013)

So I keep reading more threads, and it seems like no matter what, ILYBINILWY is always an affair. ALWAYS! I have no proof at this point, but I don't really care anymore. Her attitude and other actions are enough at this point. Last night she wanted to go out to get out of the house after a rough day with our son. She doesn't have any good girlfriends, but she does know a beta-orbiting schlub, friend of a friend she met a year or so ago and we have hung out with a few times since. So she went out with him. She asked me--and I let her go. I don't care at this point, if she wants to get out of the house so bad that she's gotta go hang around dumbasses like him, let her. She txt me at 1:30AM saying she was a bit dizzy and needed to take a nap. Didn't come home till 6:30am. I really don't think she had sex with him, he's pretty friggin ugly, but who knows. Maybe she needed a rebound after her dream guy shut her down. 

And Entropy, you are right I have been way too permissive and trusting. I suppose tact is not always necessary when trying to get a difficult point across. I wonder what the right approach was to her little escapade? Does she really wanna see me angry? Or should I just let her do her thing while I quietly get my ducks in a row? Some small part of me thinks if I alpha up and beat my chest and drive us over there together and give him a real good piece of my mind, she will at least respect me again. But that's not really 180, is it?

She's going on a 6-day trip with our son to visit her childhood home, her best friend, and grandmother next week. I was gonna go, but money is so tight and I really have too much work that I can't seem to concentrate on that I can't go. While she's gone, I'm filing, I'll figure out the separation issues, call her dad and tell him that he needs to take care of his daughter again, because I'm done.

I'm really angry at this point, at her and at myself for not seeing the warning signs and manning up before it got this far. Enough has happened that I won't take her back until her knees are raw from begging for my forgiveness and turning her act around, NOW

Question: should I confront these "friends" of hers, and let them what I think about them courting my wife, even if "nothing happened"? . I can be stern without getting violent and screwing up my custody rights later down the road. I guess I'm just feeling a little emasculated right now, and wondering if all this 180 vs. alpha is messing with my mind.


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## Alpha (Feb 18, 2013)

You know, I got the speech, dug around as much as I could, and couldn't find the smoking gun, but in the back of my head, something always felt wrong. I believe that ILYBINILWY is always an affair. 

I mentioned this on another thread earlier, that if I could rewind time, I would have never tried the 180. I think its just a way to protect your emotions and let your wife continue to do what she wants to do. I'd rather man up to the whole situation. 

Tell her to go leave but before she does, make sure she agrees to no support and only visitation with your son.


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## BayouPoet (May 16, 2013)

@Alpha: Advice well taken. She'd most likely agree to no support, in fact, our state really doesn't have much of an alimony system left other than "interim spousal support" to help SAHMs with kids that are under 4, and in this case, she probably wouldn't get it anyway due to her having a degree and me not making a huge amount. But I don't think she'd ever agree to just visitation, and I can't see why the courts would. Honestly, she's a good mother, just a really sh*&&y wife. Also, my son couldn't handle too much time away from her at 19 months. He is still weaning.


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## Alpha (Feb 18, 2013)

She just might agree to full custody you never know. Ask her and she just might agree. 

At this point, you decide whether or not you want to save your marriage. It will be a long grueling road if you decide to. 

Or you cut your losses now while you are still young.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

BayouPoet said:


> @Entropy:
> Thanks for taking the time to respond. I think you may have read a little more into what I wrote, so I have edited my OP a bit for clarity and poor word choice. I get the idea that I could have been more vigilant, especially when there were some flags that our relationship was not in the best shape. But I also think that I shouldn't have to constantly be a private investigator in our marriage and stop her from wanting to have friends or having appropriate friendships with other men, as long as she respects my boundaries. I strongly believe in freedom and personal space, within bounds. Kinda like marriage civil liberty. If I have probable cause, I get a "marriage warrant", bust down her door of privacy, and search the place for signs of wrongdoing. But if I don't have probable cause, I don't think it's reasonable or healthy for me to do those things. Trust runs both ways. She has violated my trust and knows that right now. I guess I'm just not interested in a partner who requires me to constantly keep them in bounds like a child. I'll mate guard if/when necessary, but ultimately I'm not even interested in a partner who doesn't respect me enough to be open about her feelings and keep herself from crossing boundaries.
> In this case, I think she was having some feelings for him, was writing them out in hopes of understanding them better, and she gave me the ILYBINILWY speech long before she crossed any physical lines or even got a reciprocated EA started. Crushes happen. They are biological, but not impossible to resist. I've had them for OW while we were dating, but never acted on them and did not get drawn into fantasy-building. She knows this...maybe this is why she always snooped my phone and FB, and this is why I never really got angry at her for it. She attempted honesty, maybe a bit late, but not so late that I can't forgive her for it if she decides to fully apologize and commit to rebuilding us.
> Could I be wrong? Sure. If I am, and I find out she lied about the extent, she's history, he's being exposed to his g/f, his father--who'd kick his ass for me, and possibly his boss. But I don't have any reason at this point to think otherwise. Which is why I framed the OP as a question.
> That said, I don't appreciate being called a cuckold or hotwifer. I don't think I was "letting her date." I know you are trying to help here, but either knock it off or bring your help elsewhere.


You let your wife date another man. If you feel this is an appropriate and normal thing to do you will find that it is its own reward. It is fine to have an error in judgement but if we cannot learn from others failures we must at least learn from our own. A husband letting his wife go out one on one with any man not her immediate family is allowing a date. It is about being in isolation together especially away from any other mate. Instigation, Isolation and Escalation. It has cost you dearly here. My commnets were not about you snopong on your wife at all. What was wrong was clearly in the open. You had plenty of proof of an affair but for whatever reason you keep saying you had none. First off you have to know what you are looking for. Indeed tunnel vision is all too common. It happens to all of us. You do what you want but I suggest that you consider that a wife hanging out one on one with another man is a date whether the two people see it as that or not. A date is two people bonding together as friends. You are ok with this and yet you are still puzzled that you cannot see your wifes affair(s). It is right in front of you. Consider this. What guys best friend would be going out with his best friends wife alone together? NO way I would do that to my best friend. Not even if he asked me. That is very unfair to all concerened. You should have been going out with your own wife. No excuses.

So a guys wife goes out with another man. Calls at 1:30 am feeling dizzy and stays the night with the other man. You just shrug it off as you do not think she slept with him. Right. But again too many peoples boundaries are PIV sex. Like a wife spending the night with another man is not cheating even without penetration. Wow. Just wow. In no way would it be ok with my wife going on date with a guy. If I found out my wife spent the night over a guys house even if they only watched TV it would be a dealbreaker. Because faithful married folks do not do that.

You read me wrong if I think that is has anything to do with showing anger. What one does is not accept a wife dating another man. You do not have to be angry. Just firm. You should have said that that activity was not acceptable to you. Simple really. Now if my wife called from anywhere at 1:30 am and said she was dizzy, I would tell her I would be right there and pick her up.

The guys dated your wife because you were fine with it. These guys did not fear you did they? Why is that? But you never beg another man not to take your wife. You needed to deal with your wife. Yes you should have run off these other guys but your wife was the one inviting them in.

When a guy comes on here and says he is ok with his wife going out with other guys and then says he cannot see the affairs, he is in denial. Your wife has been less than faithful to you. You enabled it. She owns her behavior. But you should be angry with the guy in the mirror. You made a bad choice in the woman you married. It happens. But then you decided on what your boundaries were and they were not strong enough for what your wife has done. Sorry. It happens. Learn from it. Good luck.


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