# ~*~ Will you please help me with my son? ~*~



## VeryHurt

Hi ~

It's Very Hurt and I would like your advice.

My 30 year old son got engaged in October with his girlfriend of 6 years. She is 26 years old.

In January of this year, he started a job in San Francisco. She was going to join in after she got her job transfer. 

Before he left, she wanted to get engaged but he had some hesitation about her maturity level and her lack of financial responsibility.

He wanted to wait for her to move to San Fran to see how their relationship went in the "real world." Two young people working, saving money, budgeting, paying bills and sharing chores & errands.

She has a history of spending her paychecks on shopping sprees.

February and March they are exchanging E-mails of potential apartments and she is still waiting to hear about her "transfer." 

She is a manager where she works in NJ but there was not a lateral transfer in CA but there was an "assistant" manager opening. She did not want to drop down a level although the pay would be the same.

April rolls along and she "did not get the transfer" and "she is angry because she did not get an engagement ring before he left."

He told her that he wanted to marry her but he just wanted to wait to see how things went in CA and he also told her that he was going to "start putting money away for a ring."

In May she calls him to say they "need a break" and he is blown away. He flips out, talks to his boss and he takes the next flight from SF to Newark.

She is cold and distant and "confused." They talk for a few hours and ignores him the rest of that weekend. Before flies back to SF, he writes a long love-letter to her. 

For the next two weeks he is a mess. She does not call him. She did not acknowledge the letter. He is calling me 24/7 from CA. He is crying all day. He work suffers. He "loses it" at work and has to hide in the men's room. Can't eat. Anxious.

He boss says, "Go back home and work remotely from there. Get your life back on track."

He tells her that he is coming back to NJ. He is here a week and she does not contact him then all of a sudden she "wants to see him."

They begin to reconnect for a few months and he is euphoric. 

He is so insanely happy he just wants to get engaged BUT he finds out by "looking through her phone while she was in the shower" that she was with "another guy" during the 5 weeks that he was back in CA having a meltdown. She says, "They didn't start a relationship until they broke up."

He is devastated about what he read and saw in their text messages.

Apparently this guy is 35 years old, has been engaged for 4 years and had a baby in February. 

They met at a restaurant/bar where he has a reputation of hitting on women and drinking a lot.

She really liked him and their 5 weeks were quite sexual. 

He ended up dumping her and she was hurt and upset.

The rest is typical TAM stuff: trickle truth.

Since their engagement I can sense my son is not happy. People who are 'madly in love and newly engaged" are suppose to look happy.

Bottom Line: 
He cannot get over her "cheating."

He is angry that she denied she was with this guy or anyone until he told her he read their text messages.

He wonders what would have happened if the guy didn't dump her.

He is mad that she "did stuff with him that she would not do with him.'

He gets "possessive" and he can't get "the visions of them together out of his mind."

He is not sure of her "timeline" and did she really cheat?

He tells her that "she hurt him" and she reassures him up to a point.

He keeps asking himself and me if he was "Plan B" or if she "just settled on him."

Today's Blow Up:

He saw a Therapist last evening for 2.5 hours and he was advised to have a long talk with her. He needed to be totally honest with her and visa-versa. She should be willing to answer all his questions.

He called me this morning to tell me she said, "You are never going to get over this and I don't want to deal with it anymore."

My son said to me, 'I really don't think she cares about me or my feelings."

What would you advise him if he was your son?

Thank you so much ~

PS: Oh, she told him a few times that "they were on a break" and what happened was none of his business."

VH


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## GusPolinski

Her story is bullsh*t. She cheated.

Tell him to dump her -- hard, immediately, and permanently.


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## Dude007

He is lucky as hell, let her go and THANK GOD every day he found all this sheet out on the FRONT END...DUDE


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## TDSC60

He was right in not getting engaged to her before he left. She is immature, self centered and a cheater by nature. He got lucky.

Go back to SF or stay in Newark for work but cut all contact with her.

He dodged the bullet. She does not love him.

Cut her out of his life forever. Do not talk to her again.


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## alte Dame

If he were my son, VH, (and I have a 28-yo son), I would tell him that he has to go through the process of mourning the loss of what he thought was a life partner, but that he has dodged a bullet. He won't see that now, but he will understand that soon enough.

I would get him a copy of the 180 and encourage him to force himself to detach.

You and I and all of TAM know that he is well rid of her. It will take some time for him to feel it, too.

(Also, if he is not averse to reading here, I might get him to go through bff's thread.)


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## EleGirl

If he was my son, I would advise him to end the relationship. This is not going to end well no matter what. So the sooner he end it the better.

If he will not end it, I'd advise him to call Dr. Harley at MarriageBuilders to get help ... joint counseling for them.

It takes 2 to 5 years for a betrayed spouse to heal from an affair. She has no concept of what she needs to do to help him heal. And she is right, he might never get over it.


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## NoChoice

VeryHurt said:


> Hi ~
> 
> It's Very Hurt and I would like your advice.
> 
> My 30 year old son got engaged in October with his girlfriend of 6 years. She is 26 years old.
> 
> In January of this year, he started a job in San Francisco. She was going to join in after she got her job transfer.
> 
> Before he left, she wanted to get engaged but he had some hesitation about her maturity level and her lack of financial responsibility.
> 
> He wanted to wait for her to move to San Fran to see how their relationship went in the "real world." Two young people working, saving money, budgeting, paying bills and sharing chores & errands.
> 
> She has a history of spending her paychecks on shopping sprees.
> 
> February and March they are exchanging E-mails of potential apartments and she is still waiting to hear about her "transfer."
> 
> She is a manager where she works in NJ but there was not a lateral transfer in CA but there was an "assistant" manager opening. She did not want to drop down a level although the pay would be the same.
> 
> April rolls along and she "did not get the transfer" and "she is angry because she did not get an engagement ring before he left."
> 
> He told her that he wanted to marry her but he just wanted to wait to see how things went in CA and he also told her that he was going to "start putting money away for a ring."
> 
> In May she calls him to say they "need a break" and he is blown away. He flips out, talks to his boss and he takes the next flight from SF to Newark.
> 
> She is cold and distant and "confused." They talk for a few hours and ignores him the rest of that weekend. Before flies back to SF, he write a long love-letter to her.
> 
> For the next two weeks he is a mess. She does not call him. She did not acknowledge the letter. He is calling me 24/7 from CA. He is crying all day. He work suffers. He "loses it" at work and has to his on the men's room. Can't eat. Anxious.
> 
> He boss says, "Go back home and work remotely from there. Get your life back on track."
> 
> He tells her that he is coming back to NJ. He is here a week and she does not contact him then all of a sudden she "wants to see him."
> 
> They begin to reconnect for a few months and he is euphoric.
> 
> He is so insanely happy he just wants to get engaged BUT he finds out by "looking through her phone while she was in the shower" that she was "another guy" during the 5 weeks that he was back in CA having a meltdown. She says, "They didn't start a relationship until they broke up."
> 
> He is devastated about what he read and saw in their text messages.
> 
> Apparently this guy is 35 years old, has been engaged for 4 years and had a baby in February,
> 
> They met at a restaurant/bar where he has a reputation of hitting on women and drinking a lot.
> 
> He really liked him and their 5 weeks were quite sexual.
> 
> He ended up dumping her and she was hurt and upset.
> 
> The rest is typical TAM stuff: trickle truth.
> 
> Since their engagement I can sense my son is not happy. People who are 'madly in love and newly engaged" are suppose to look happy.
> 
> Bottom Line:
> He cannot get over her "cheating."
> 
> _And rightfully so. This was a prercursor to his future with her._
> 
> He is angry that she denied she was with this guy or anyone until he told her he read their text messages.
> 
> *He is not angry enough if he is still engaged to her. She is a spoiled brat and anytime she does not get her way this will happen. Is he prepared for that?*
> 
> He wonders what would have happened if the guy didn't dump her.
> 
> *She would still be ignoring him until he did dump her or she got bored with him. She is far to immature to be married.*
> 
> He is mad that she "did stuff with him that she would not do with him.'
> 
> *She gave what she wanted to give. If she did not do the things with your son she did not want to or felt she did not need to. He was already "hooked".*
> 
> He gets "possessive" and he can't get "the visions of them together out of his mind."
> 
> *And this is how he wants to start an engagement???*
> 
> He is not sure of her "timeline" and did she really cheat?
> 
> *The timeline is irrevalent to her. If she wants it she will have it and a ring will not stop her and neither, I fear, will a child.*
> 
> He tells her that "she hurt him" and she reassures him up to a point.
> 
> *Hurting him was not a concern lest she would not have done it.*
> 
> He keeps asking himself and me if he was "Plan B" or if she "just settled on him."
> 
> *Absolutely, positively, unequivocally, assuredly and without doubt he IS plan B. *
> 
> Today's Blow Up:
> 
> He saw a Therapist last evening for 2.5 hours and he was advised to have a long talk with her. He need to be totally honest with her and visa-versa. She should be willing to answer all his questions.
> 
> He called me this morning to tell me she said, "You are never going to get over this and I don't want to deal with it anymore."
> 
> My son said to me, 'I really don't think she cares about me or my feelings."
> 
> *Astute observation and she likely never will to the degree he needs from a wife.*
> 
> What would you advise him if he was your son?
> 
> Thank you so much ~
> 
> VH


OP,
If he was my son I would strongly advise him to let her go. She is nowhere near mature enough to be married. His life will be more of this if he marries her. She will also be horribly irresponsible with finances as she is with emotional commitment. She is a child in a 26 year old body. Do not let him marry her!

Perhaps, if she would agree to a protracted engagement, to allow her time to mature, then it could be considered but that will not happen because she will storm off to someone/anyone else.

Also, tell him whatever he does not to impregnate her or his life will be extremely difficult.

He was given a rare glimpse into his future with her. Tell him to heed its warning.


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## alte Dame

Also, if he hasn't yet returned to work in SF, he should book his flight.


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## cgiles

Send this link to your son : https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf

And this one too : The 180 | AFFAIRCARE

And tell him to come here.


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## Lostinthought61

Get him to come here and tell his story.


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## TDSC60

Have him read Kivlor and HurtDude threads. Situations are similar. Engaged and both fiancees caught cheating and lying about it.


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## LosingHim

Maybe my line is a little blurred, but if they really were on a break I don't consider that cheating. But not knowing the absolute time line, she possibly could have still been in the relationship when she started this relationship with the other man. That part isn't really clear to me.

BUT, knowing that she said it's none of his business does bother me. If you're going to be with someone, they deserve to know the sordid details if they want to know. 

All in all, she sounds like a spoiled, immature brat who is always going to get her way. I would advise my son to try his best to forget about her and move on. Easier said than done, obviously. Maybe just remind him of all the great things that he has to offer and let him know there are many women out there that would appreciate those things and appreciate HIM and that his bride is out there somewhere waiting to be found.


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## Roselyn

OP, your son dodged a major heartbreak. She is a serial cheater in the making or is already a serial cheater. Your son's instinct is correct. She is not immature, just simply an entitled princess and a cheater. I married at 22 years of age and is still in my marriage. 

He needs to fix his mindset and return to San Francisco. Have him focus on his job. He will be in a new environment and won't have triggers to get him upset.

Have him read Hurt Dude's journey. He's in a similar situation, but not three weeks to the altar and lost $30,000 on a honeymoon plan. He will meet other women who will value and respect him. He is still young and can reinvent himself without baggage.


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## woundedwarrior

Sadly familiar with HurtDude's thread. He needs to be totally done with her. If she wouldn't have gotten dumped, she'd still be two timing him and if he hadn't checked her phone, he would have been clueless.

There is no coming back from someone who cheats the first time there is an obstacle in the road and they're not even married?

He needs to go back to California and she can stay in New Jersey, that is perfect, because they will never run into each other.

What is with these people????


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## SecondTime'Round

She started cheating in May when she told him she "needed a break." Probably even in April, or maybe before.

I agree with your son that she doesn't care about his feelings. He shouldn't marry someone who doesn't care about his feelings.


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## JohnA

Your son's ex sounds like a soulmate for your soon to be ex. What does he know of the backstory of his parents marriage? I shared the thought with a sib that sometimes the hardest and most important thing a parent can do is share their pain, failures, and disappointments in life. 

I have no doubt what your ex would say: pretend to reconcile use her and dump her, that will teach her.

Advise him it will be his reaction to these events, not her actions, that will define his chacter. 

He might find Hurt dude's thread to be of help http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/299938-found-out-fiancee-screwing-my-best-friend.html but that would expose your pain and doubts to him. Can the both of you handle that ?


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## SecondTime'Round

JohnA said:


> He might find Hurt dude's thread to be of help http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/299938-found-out-fiancee-screwing-my-best-friend.html *but that would expose your pain and doubts to him. Can the both of you handle that ?*


I'm not sure what you mean by this.


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## drifting on

If this were my son I would sit him down and have a long talk. I would talk to him about how he felt reading those texts, what he thought of her lies. If this were on break why lie about seeing someone? So obviously they weren't on break but the REASON they had a break. How does he feel about being second best? How does he feel that his trust will never be the same? The most important question, why and what caused him to wait until living together to get engaged? 

I presume that his gut may have poked him a few times to wait. I would explore that reasoning a little more. After the talk I would ask him if this is how he wanted his life to be like. Always wondering, distrust, policing, investigating, or would he like some new woman who has what he is looking for. My final comment would be that she is not marriage material, and I question if she is even enough material to be brought home to meet mom.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor

She was desperate to get engaged, yet very quickly fell into a highly sexual relationship with another man? That doesn't sound consistent with good wife material. Your son had some gut feelings that she wasn't ready for marriage. His gut was right, and she proved herself not ready for marriage.

I would tell him his gut was right about her not being mature enough yet for marriage. I would also tell him to cut all ties to her so that he can mourn the loss of the relationship and move on with his life. Also, yes she had some very good qualities and they had fun times together, so he doesn't have to hate her now. It is ok to still have feelings for her, yet at the same time know that marriage will not work for them.

I would also advise him that his feelings about her relationship with the other man are totally ok. Regardless of how people might define things as they were broken up or not, or that she had "the right" to see other men, he has the full right to his feelings and beliefs about the situation. He has every right to feel hurt that she had another relationship going on, he has the right to feel hurt that she did things sexually with the other man, etc. 

I would suggest that your son's response is quite normal and rational. 

She doesn't have to be labelled as evil or anything else for what she did. She did what she did, and it has changed everything. Now your son can't think of her or their relationship the way he used to. Your son should trust his gut now, just like he did before, and be rid of her.


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## JohnA

Can you clarify exactly what was said when she said "she needed a break"? In his shoes I would take to mean she needed time to meditate about her life and what our lives together would be like. It would not mean I have this cool posm on my radar and since you are not around 24/7 I going to comparison shop. 

Perhaps what his biggest problem is not sexual acts but a lie of omission. In a marriage this type of lie foreshadows disaster. Deal with this first then the sexual acts.


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## CrazyX2

Obviously your son should have nothing to do with this woman. She sucks.

But your son will only find himself in this situation again if he doesn't deal with his codependency issues. That includes both girlfriends and his mom. You two seem too enmeshed, which will cause lots of strife when he does finally find a SAFE woman to marry. He needs to learn to deal with these problems as an adult.


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## JohnA

Hi second time,

A while back there was a poster, Bigfoot???, who was dealing with a WS. She had no remorse until her parents intervened. They shared the story of her mothers adultery and the effect on the father and their family. She idealized her parents and believe thier marriage to be great.

I do not know if they did reconciled as he stopped posting. What I do know is that marriage was dead until they shared the pain and shame. From her father she gained insight into her husband's pain and opened the door to remorse. From her mother she learned to be humble. From both of them she learned a great marriage was still possible.

Wow, amazing parents.


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## VeryHurt

CrazyX2 said:


> Obviously your son should have nothing to do with this woman. She sucks.
> 
> But your son will only find himself in this situation again if he doesn't deal with his codependency issues. That includes both girlfriends and his mom. You two seem too enmeshed, which will cause lots of strife when he does finally find a SAFE woman to marry. He needs to learn to deal with these problems as an adult.


Crazy ~
I can see how you feel my son and I are too "enmeshed" but I must respectfully disagree. My STBX is a lunatic and our son cannot discuss the real world with him. He has no siblings. My son is far from a "Mama's Boy," but if he has a problem, he does pass it by me. I stay out of his life and only comment if he asks me something. 
VH


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## VeryHurt

JohnA said:


> Can you clarify exactly what was said when she said "she needed a break"? In his shoes I would take to mean she needed time to meditate about her life and what our lives together would be like. It would not mean I have this cool posm on my radar and since you are not around 24/7 I going to comparison shop.
> 
> Perhaps what his biggest problem is not sexual acts but a lie of omission. In a marriage this type of lie foreshadows disaster. Deal with this first then the sexual acts.


Hi John ~
She said to him, "I love you, I'm not seeing anyone else but we need some time apart."
VH


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## VeryHurt

Thor said:


> She was desperate to get engaged, yet very quickly fell into a highly sexual relationship with another man? That doesn't sound consistent with good wife material. Your son had some gut feelings that she wasn't ready for marriage. His gut was right, and she proved herself not ready for marriage.
> 
> I would tell him his gut was right about her not being mature enough yet for marriage. I would also tell him to cut all ties to her so that he can mourn the loss of the relationship and move on with his life. Also, yes she had some very good qualities and they had fun times together, so he doesn't have to hate her now. It is ok to still have feelings for her, yet at the same time know that marriage will not work for them.
> 
> I would also advise him that his feelings about her relationship with the other man are totally ok. Regardless of how people might define things as they were broken up or not, or that she had "the right" to see other men, he has the full right to his feelings and beliefs about the situation. He has every right to feel hurt that she had another relationship going on, he has the right to feel hurt that she did things sexually with the other man, etc.
> 
> I would suggest that your son's response is quite normal and rational.
> 
> She doesn't have to be labelled as evil or anything else for what she did. She did what she did, and it has changed everything. Now your son can't think of her or their relationship the way he used to. Your son should trust his gut now, just like he did before, and be rid of her.


Hi Thor ~
You are correct, he cannot think of her the way he used to. 
He said to me, "Who is she? Who hooks up with a 35 year-old dude with a fiancee and a new baby?"
Certainly has made him think about her character or potential.
VH


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## VeryHurt

GusPolinski said:


> Her story is bullsh*t. She cheated.
> 
> Tell him to dump her -- hard, immediately, and permanently.


Oh Gus, I am afraid I agree with you. 
I have not used your words "dump her" but I have encourage him to rethink the engagement and at the very least postpone the wedding date.
VH


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## VeryHurt

Dude007 said:


> He is lucky as hell, let her go and THANK GOD every day he found all this sheet out on the FRONT END...DUDE


Dude ~
I know he's lucky, you know he's lucky now HE has to realize it!
VH


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## VeryHurt

TDSC60 said:


> He was right in not getting engaged to her before he left. She is immature, self centered and a cheater by nature. He got lucky.
> 
> Go back to SF or stay in Newark for work but cut all contact with her.
> 
> He dodged the bullet. She does not love him.
> 
> Cut her out of his life forever. Do not talk to her again.


Hi TDSC60 ~
Thank you for your post. He realizes she is immature and self-centered but convincing him that she is a "cheater" is going to be tough.
VH


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## VeryHurt

alte Dame said:


> If he were my son, VH, (and I have a 28-yo son), I would tell him that he has to go through the process of mourning the loss of what he thought was a life partner, but that he has dodged a bullet. He won't see that now, but he will understand that soon enough.
> 
> I would get him a copy of the 180 and encourage him to force himself to detach.
> 
> You and I and all of TAM know that he is well rid of her. It will take some time for him to feel it, too.
> 
> (Also, if he is not averse to reading here, I might get him to go through bff's thread.)


Hi Alte Dame ~
I will do my best to help him through this. Whether our kids are 2, 8, 28, or 58, we are there for them!
VH


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## VeryHurt

EleGirl said:


> If he was my son, I would advise him to end the relationship. This is not going to end well no matter what. So the sooner he end it the better.
> 
> If he will not end it, I'd advise him to call Dr. Harley at MarriageBuilders to get help ... joint counseling for them.
> 
> It takes 2 to 5 years for a betrayed spouse to heal from an affair. She has no concept of what she needs to do to help him heal. And she is right, he might never get over it.


Ele ~
This is tough because I am identifying with his dilemma. I find myself staying focused because I too am dealing with betrayal. How sad that Mother-Son have this in common? I did mentioned that they BOTH go to counseling. He is also like me, he MAY NOT get over the deceit.
VH


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## phillybeffandswiss

Remind him of his gut.

If her reaction to unhappiness is to break up with your son, become a cheater and possibly break up another family his gut was correct. 


> Before he left, she wanted to get engaged but he had some hesitation about her maturity level and her lack of financial responsibility.
> 
> He wanted to wait for her to move to San Fran to see how their relationship went in the "real world." Two young people working, saving money, budgeting, paying bills and sharing chores & errands.


This is a well adjusted adult decision your son made. He was 100% correct in his choice.

Honestly, whether she cheated on your son or not is a red herring. It doesn't matter, she is the Other Woman who helped a POSOM cheat on his fiance. All that matters is, does he really want to marry a cheater who breaks up relationships?

Nope, not downplaying the POSOM's actions, he is just irrelevant to you or your son.


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## VeryHurt

Xenote said:


> Get him to come here and tell his story.


X ~
Well, if you see a newbie with the name "Very Hurt's Son" you'll know it's him!
VH


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## TRy

VeryHurt said:


> She said to him, "I love you, I'm not seeing anyone else but we need some time apart."


 If she meant to communicate that the "time apart" was meant to be a full break up where they could both see others, she would not have told him that she was "not seeing anyone else but we need some time apart". Also, although she may or may not have had sex with this other man ("OM") prior to her saying that they needed time apart, since she was seeing this OM when she said this, she was lying. Until a person clearly states to their partner that they are ending their exclusive status, they are still in an exclusive status and having sex with others is thus clearly cheating. 

She has shown him that he is just her back up plan, and if the OM had not dumped her, she would not even be talking to your son right now, and you would not be posting here. This fact does not a good marriage make.


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## sapientia

cgiles said:


> Send this link to your son : https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf
> 
> And this one too : The 180 | AFFAIRCARE
> 
> *And tell him to come here.*


This^ is exactly what I would have said. Coming from mom doesn't have the same impact as from strangers, weird as that sounds.

Just say you did some research, send him the link and delete this thread.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Naw, focusing on the timeline is to involved as they are not married. It'll give him wiggle room to work on things. As someone who broke up with a fiancee for something similar, justification is a MF'er to get past. Just deal with her reaction to adversity when you talk to him. 

If she loses a job is she going to want a divorce?
If he loses a job is she going to want a divorce?
If he works late is she going to separate?
If they fight, is she going to have sex with someone else?
Does he enjoy 2.5 hours of therapy to save a marriage?
Does he really want to add kids to this mix?

She showed him she is immature and that's okay. He can move on and she can mature apart from one another.


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## VeryHurt

LosingHim said:


> Maybe my line is a little blurred, but if they really were on a break I don't consider that cheating. But not knowing the absolute time line, she possibly could have still been in the relationship when she started this relationship with the other man. That part isn't really clear to me.
> 
> BUT, knowing that she said it's none of his business does bother me. If you're going to be with someone, they deserve to know the sordid details if they want to know.
> 
> All in all, she sounds like a spoiled, immature brat who is always going to get her way. I would advise my son to try his best to forget about her and move on. Easier said than done, obviously. Maybe just remind him of all the great things that he has to offer and let him know there are many women out there that would appreciate those things and appreciate HIM and that his bride is out there somewhere waiting to be found.


LH ~
This is what is killing him. He wants to believe they were "on a break" when it happened but he just isn't sure.
VH


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## VeryHurt

Roselyn said:


> OP, your son dodged a major heartbreak. She is a serial cheater in the making or is already a serial cheater. Your son's instinct is correct. She is not immature, just simply an entitled princess and a cheater. I married at 22 years of age and is still in my marriage.
> 
> He needs to fix his mindset and return to San Francisco. Have him focus on his job. He will be in a new environment and won't have triggers to get him upset.
> 
> Have him read Hurt Dude's journey. He's in a similar situation, but not three weeks to the altar and lost $30,000 on a honeymoon plan. He will meet other women who will value and respect him. He is still young and can reinvent himself without baggage.


Roselyn ~
I would love him to return to SF. He went to college there and he loved it. However, he told me today that he quit his job there.
I am quite annoyed.
VH


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## VeryHurt

JohnA said:


> Your son's ex sounds like a soulmate for your soon to be ex. What does he know of the backstory of his parents marriage? I shared the thought with a sib that sometimes the hardest and most important thing a parent can do is share their pain, failures, and disappointments in life.
> 
> I have no doubt what your ex would say: pretend to reconcile use her and dump her, that will teach her.
> 
> Advise him it will be his reaction to these events, not her actions, that will define his chacter.
> 
> He might find Hurt dude's thread to be of help http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/299938-found-out-fiancee-screwing-my-best-friend.html but that would expose your pain and doubts to him. Can the both of you handle that ?


Well John ~

This post is interesting as my son and I have had many conversations about my marriage and impending divorce.

In the past seven years, after my STBX cheated, our witness some lousy things. His dad's cheating and lying. My pain of betrayal. His dad's being unkind to me. 

(I must say, I was shocked when he wanted to take a trip to the altar!)

My STBX and I discussed what we did wrong and what he needs to do if he marries, especially honesty and COMMUNICATION.

Sadly, our son was lied to as well by his dad.

Oh, I have had *enough *with lies and cheating being in life.

VH


----------



## workindad

She has shown exactly who she is. A selfish liar and a cheat. He should believe her. 

Have him get tested for STDs.
Let the POSOMs fiance know.
Then he should be very thankful to have found on the front end who she really is.


----------



## lucy999

Your son sounds quite mature. There's a fork in the road; I hope he takes the right path. IMO, the right path is to dump her immediately.

Caveat-I don't have children. However, if he were my son, I'd agree with him-she doesn't care about him or his feelings. At all. Because:

1. If she really did indeed 'love' him, why would she step out on him, break or no break? True love feelings don't disappear at the mere declaration of, 'we're on a break.' True love doesn't work that way. 

2. Does he really want to build a life with someone of such low character/morality as to sleep with an attached man who has a new baby? That's gross.

Also, have him come here, as others have suggested, and have him read chumplady's blog. She puts things into perspective real quick.

Wishing the best for you and your son.


----------



## barbados

VH,

This girl is marriage material about as much as I am NFL running back material. 

Materialistic, immature, bad with money, and .......... A CHEATER !

Please tell your son to dump her.


----------



## JohnA

Thank you for the clarification.

She lied to why the break. 

She cheated and had an affair (not adultery a term I reserved for marriage). 

She lied to conceal her affair. 

She has established a baseline to predict future behavior. 

Her next course of action: " I know I lied and hurt you, I acted only out of despair because I thought you were moving on. I was a coward in not telling you. He meant nothing to me, I always knew who and what he was ! I only did it in dispair to force myself to move on! Please I love you only you! I want only you! Your love is everthing to me ! Please ! ....."

Send him to mattmatt's thread on cheaters script. If your son is like stbex he can move in use her in ways posm never did and she would never allow otherwise, to prove her love, and then move on to his life in SF. But his reaction to her lies and actions is what will define his manhood, nothing else.


----------



## Pluto2

Oh VH, this is sad.

If he were my son I think I would try to point out to him, that her actions indicate a lack of maturity. I don't believe she waited until she told you son they were on a break to start seeing OM, but that's me, I've never met either one. But her eagerness to become involved with another man when things didn't go her way is a definite maturity and entitlement factor. The maturity level can improve with time. As you and I both know, the entitlement element usually sticks around and rears its ugly head again and again and again.

He must honestly consider if he wants to have this in his life on the long term. Make sure his eyes are wide open before the ceremony. 
I wish mine had been.


----------



## VeryHurt

woundedwarrior said:


> Sadly familiar with HurtDude's thread. He needs to be totally done with her. If she wouldn't have gotten dumped, she'd still be two timing him and if he hadn't checked her phone, he would have been clueless.
> 
> There is no coming back from someone who cheats the first time there is an obstacle in the road and they're not even married?
> 
> He needs to go back to California and she can stay in New Jersey, that is perfect, because they will never run into each other.
> 
> What is with these people????


Hi WW~
You're right, if this player did not dump her, she would still be with him. I wish my son waited to "popped the question" to her BUT I think he was afraid to "lose her" again. Now he wants to know if he is/was Plan B ~
VH


----------



## VeryHurt

SecondTime'Round said:


> She started cheating in May when she told him she "needed a break." Probably even in April, or maybe before.
> 
> I agree with your son that she doesn't care about his feelings. He shouldn't marry someone who doesn't care about his feelings.


STR ~
I couldn't agree more. How many of us have heard, "I need a break?" Most of us know what that REALLY means. Even before this happened, I always sensed that he was more in love with her than she was with him. Breaks my heart. Unlike Hurt Dude, we only have a deposit on the reception venue.
VH


----------



## VeryHurt

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Remind him of his gut.
> 
> If her reaction to unhappiness is to break up with your son, become a cheater and possibly break up another family his gut was correct.
> This is a well adjusted adult decision your son made. He was 100% correct in his choice.
> 
> Honestly, whether she cheated on your son or not is a red herring. It doesn't matter, she is the Other Woman who helped a POSOM cheat on his fiance. All that matters is, does he really want to marry a cheater who breaks up relationships?
> 
> Nope, not downplaying the POSOM's actions, he is just irrelevant to you or your son.


Ya know what PB&S, I never looked at it like you just did. 
My son's fiancee is JUST AS EVIL as my STBXH's POSOW !!!!!!!
Oh my God, this is hitting me like a ton of bricks !!!!!!!
She "dated" a loser that WAS engaged with a 3 month old baby. 
She didn't care just like my STBXH's skank didn't care.
I think I may have to barf .............


----------



## VeryHurt

workindad said:


> She has shown exactly who she is. A selfish liar and a cheat. He should believe her.
> 
> Have him get tested for STDs.
> Let the POSOMs fiance know.
> Then he should be very thankful to have found on the front end who she really is.


WD ~

Oh my God, ANOTHER POST that I didn't think about ........totally forgot about the STD scare............HOLY SH!T...........I am freakin' out


----------



## VeryHurt

lucy999 said:


> Your son sounds quite mature. There's a fork in the road; I hope he takes the right path. IMO, the right path is to dump her immediately.
> 
> Caveat-I don't have children. However, if he were my son, I'd agree with him-she doesn't care about him or his feelings. At all. Because:
> 
> 1. If she really did indeed 'love' him, why would she step out on him, break or no break? True love feelings don't disappear at the mere declaration of, 'we're on a break.' True love doesn't work that way.
> 
> 2. Does he really want to build a life with someone of such low character/morality as to sleep with an attached man who has a new baby? That's gross.
> 
> Also, have him come here, as others have suggested, and have him read chumplady's blog. She puts things into perspective real quick.
> 
> Wishing the best for you and your son.


Lucy ~
You have brought up great points. Your post is a REALITY CHECK for me as well. You are right, where the FVCK are her MORALS?
No better than MY STBXH's POSOW !!!!!!!!!
This day is just too much for me .............


----------



## VeryHurt

barbados said:


> VH,
> 
> This girl is marriage material about as much as I am NFL running back material.
> 
> Materialistic, immature, bad with money, and .......... A CHEATER !
> 
> Please tell your son to dump her.


Barbados ~
I hear ya !!!!!!!!!!
VH


----------



## MattMatt

EleGirl said:


> If he was my son, I would advise him to end the relationship. This is not going to end well no matter what. So the sooner he end it the better.
> 
> If he will not end it, I'd advise him to call Dr. Harley at MarriageBuilders to get help ... joint counseling for them.
> 
> It takes 2 to 5 years for a betrayed spouse to heal from an affair. She has no concept of what she needs to do to help him heal. And she is right, he might never get over it.


It is worse I think. I don't think she cares.

She needs to be dumped and exposed. 

And your son needs STD tests ASAP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## VeryHurt

MattMatt said:


> It is worse I think. I don't think she cares.
> 
> She needs to be dumped and exposed.
> 
> And your son needs STD tests ASAP.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


MM ~
I agree with you. It is becoming more and more apparent that she is quite COLD and UNFEELING !!!
My son has said many times that she doesn't "take MY feelings into consideration." I wish he could read this thread. I don't want him to end up like me. 60 years old and now "dumped" after 33 years. If my STBX stopped loving me a long time ago and if he had told me, maybe I could have remarried and even had another baby.
I am truly starting to weep ..........


----------



## Popcorn2015

LosingHim said:


> Maybe my line is a little blurred, but if they really were on a break I don't consider that cheating.


Even if she were completely honest about everything she was doing (which she was not -- read VH's later posts), we still have a woman who:

1. Got bored with her long-time boyfriend.
2. Went out and had a lot of really hot sex with a guy she was strongly attracted to.
3. Got dumped by the hot guy.
4. Now wants to marry the original boyfriend after all.

I don't care if you call that cheating or not -- she is horrible wife material. Run away, young man. Run far away.


----------



## TDSC60

Tell your son this from me.

Young man I have been on this earth for 65 years. 40 of those years married to the same woman.

No self respecting man would contemplate marriage with a woman who has done the things this woman has done to you.

You feel betrayed - but you will get over it. You are in pain - but you will get over it. Your self worth just took a major hit - but you will get over it. Time is your friend - she is not.

Go back to California. Do not communicate with her in any form for at least 6-12 months then see how you feel. No contact means you don't text, talk, or message her in any way. And stay off FaceBook.


----------



## VeryHurt

Popcorn2015 said:


> Even if she were completely honest about everything she was doing (which she was not -- read VH's later posts), we still have a woman who:
> 
> 1. Got bored with her long-time boyfriend.
> 2. Went out and had a lot of really hot sex with a guy she was strongly attracted to.
> 3. Got dumped by the hot guy.
> 4. Now wants to marry the original boyfriend after all.
> 
> I don't care if you call that cheating or not -- she is horrible wife material. Run away, young man. Run far away.


Hi Pop ~
I was thinking to myself, what advice would I give if let's say Pluto was asking for help with HER son. I would probably say that her son really needs to rethink his engagement. The way you wrote your post is just so factual and it gets to me. I have to find a way to calmly talk to him before we drop another "deposit" on something and his heart gets hurt more.
VH


----------



## VeryHurt

TDSC60 said:


> Tell your son this from me.
> 
> Young man I have been on this earth for 65 years. 40 of those years married to the same woman.
> 
> No self respecting man would contemplate marriage with a woman who has done the things this woman has done to you.
> 
> You feel betrayed - but you will get over it. You are in pain - but you will get over it. Your self worth just took a major hit - but you will get over it. Time is your friend - she is not.
> 
> Go back to California. Do not communicate with her in any form for at least 6-12 months then see how you feel. No contact means you don't text, talk, or message her in any way. And stay off FaceBook.


*Your post made me teary-eyed. Do you know why? 
Because you sound like a REAL man and a REAL father NOT like the idiot cheater that my son has for a father.
Thank you and I will most definitely print out your post for him to read.
Thank you ~
VH*


----------



## MattMatt

He will love California. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Break or not, I'd dump her for doing stuff with him she refused me. He's obviously not as attracted to your son as she was him. She doesn't seem to have any remorse and he's just the second choice. Yup. Dump her. Find someone for whom you're the first choice, and she's not afraid to prove it.


----------



## kristin2349

lucy999 said:


> Your son sounds quite mature. There's a fork in the road; I hope he takes the right path. IMO, the right path is to dump her immediately.
> 
> Caveat-I don't have children. However, if he were my son, I'd agree with him-she doesn't care about him or his feelings. At all. Because:
> 
> 1. If she really did indeed 'love' him, why would she step out on him, break or no break? True love feelings don't disappear at the mere declaration of, 'we're on a break.' True love doesn't work that way.
> 
> 2. Does he really want to build a life with someone of such low character/morality as to sleep with an attached man who has a new baby? That's gross.
> 
> Also, have him come here, as others have suggested, and have him read chumplady's blog. She puts things into perspective real quick.
> 
> Wishing the best for you and your son.


^^I agree 100%

Your son has the opportunity to dodge a bullet. He should dump this "woman" she has shown him who she is...He needs to believe her.


----------



## VeryHurt

WorkingOnMe said:


> Break or not, I'd dump her for doing stuff with him she refused me. He's obviously not as attracted to your son as she was him. She doesn't seem to have any remorse and he's just the second choice. Yup. Dump her. Find someone for whom you're the first choice, and she's not afraid to prove it.


WOM ~
The fact that she took pictures of herself (naked) and text them to him (not my son) really got him (my son) angry. 
VH


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

It's rough, but he has to remember can he live with being second place? This is not a case of regrets where they broke up and her sexual past came up during a new start. He has not been married for years and there is a weird discovery which throws everything into question.

She can't answer the 2nd place question for him because she has no clue. 

Her actions have shown where he is in her life:
She needed a break.
She did things with OM they never did for 5 weeks.
She accepted the engagement AFTER she was dumped by OM.
She kept ALL of the communications in her phone AFTER they became engaged.

Even if he is physically number 1, he is number 2 in her heart by her actions.


----------



## ThePheonix

TDSC is exactly right. No self respecting man will let a woman like her lead him around like a bridled jackass. The problem with many young men is they are not only naive about women but also self-aggrandizing enough to believe that through the power of their love, they can control the outcome and turn it into a real Cinderella story with them being the prince. They can't and and no man can. 
Your son needs to get this crap out of his head that a big factor in how she treats him has anything to do with how much he loves her. He needs to become aware of the fact how a woman treats you and responds to you depends on how much she love him. You need to straighten him out on this mom. If you don't, some other woman will and it sounds like he's got a hold on one that's going to educate him. It probably ain't going to be pretty.


----------



## VeryHurt

phillybeffandswiss said:


> It's rough, but he has to remember can he live with being second place? This is not a case of regrets where they broke up and her sexual past came up during a new start. He has not been married for years and there is a weird discovery which throws everything into question.
> 
> She can't answer the 2nd place question for him because she has no clue.
> 
> Her actions have shown where he is in her life:
> She needed a break.
> She did things with OM they never did for 5 weeks.
> She accepted the engagement AFTER she was dumped by OM.
> She kept ALL of the communications in her phone AFTER they became engaged.
> 
> Even if he is physically number 1, he is number 2 in her heart by her actions.


Really? 
You think she still cares for the other guy? 
Or has/had a crush on him?
My son is good looking and works out but even he said the other guy was very good looking. My son said the other was was ripped.

My son read their texts a long time ago and they are STILL on her phone?
Why is that?

He read what her girlfriends aka bridesmaids texted her during the time she was with the other guy:

What the fvck are you doing? 
This guy is a player. 
He just has a baby. 
What is wrong with you?
We told he was weird.
You are drinking too much


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

All I am saying is, she gets some kick from those texts to save them all this time. In my world, all contact with another woman would have been long deleted if I got back with an ex. Heck, the first thing I would have done is see if the dudes number was or is still in the phone. We are engaged. There is no reason, minus having a child, to have an ex's contact information anywhere in your life to me.


----------



## nursejackie

I have a son the same age - from your heart tell him to mourn the illusion he had of who she was and thank his lucky stars he can get rid of the real her before kids, house, debts, are involved.

Best of luck to him. He is young and I'm sure it hurts like nothing he has ever experienced before. There will be happiness around the corner and he will look back and wonder what the f he was thinking.


----------



## tom67

phillybeffandswiss said:


> All I am saying is, she gets some kick from those texts to save them all this time. In my world, all contact with another woman would have been long deleted if I got back with an ex. Heck, the first thing I would have done is see if the dudes number was or is still in the phone. We are engaged. There is no reason, minus having a child, to have an ex's contact information anywhere in your life to me.


How does your son know they are not still in contact?

If he has the dudes number and name he could give it to a PI and find a way to contact the fiance.


----------



## Roselyn

VeryHurt said:


> Hi WW~
> You're right, if this player did not dump her, she would still be with him. I wish my son waited to "popped the question" to her BUT I think he was afraid to "lose her" again. Now he wants to know if he is/was Plan B ~
> VH


Tell your son, he is Plan B all along. No, there is no such thing as "taking a break". You're either committed to a relationship or you are not. Your son's relationship with her will fail in the long run.

I watched the mini series about the Kennedys. John Kennedy Jr. married such a woman as your son's girlfriend. His wife cheated before and after they married with a male model from Calvin Klein where she worked. John Kennedy Jr. suffered in his marriage and was clueless about his cheating and cocaine addicted wife. Felt very sorry for John Jr. Your son needs to walk away from this relationship. He'll have a sad ending if he continues with this engagement.


----------



## VeryHurt

tom67 said:


> How does your son know they are not still in contact?
> 
> If he has the dudes number and name he could give it to a PI and find a way to contact the fiance.


Hi Tom ~

He knows his name, address, cell number. I have not asked my son if he thinks she is still in contact with him. He does know that once he dumped her, he has not returned to the bar where he picked her up.
Apparently this guy "hits on younger women all the time." My son did say that she does not keep her cell phone locked.


----------



## VeryHurt

Roselyn said:


> Tell your son, he is Plan B all along. No, there is no such thing as "taking a break". You're either committed to a relationship or you are not. Your son's relationship with her will fail in the long run.
> 
> I watched the mini series about the Kennedys. John Kennedy Jr. married such a woman as your son's girlfriend. His wife cheated before and after they married with a male model from Calvin Klein where she worked. John Kennedy Jr. suffered in his marriage and was clueless about his cheating and cocaine addicted wife. Felt very sorry for John Jr. Your son needs to walk away from this relationship. He'll have a sad ending if he continues with this engagement.


Roselyn ~
I think his gut tells him that he is Plan B. 
He has too many doubts to be engaged. It should be a joyous time and he rarely smiles. 
I haven't heard from him since early this morning and I don't know what is happening tomorrow.
VH


----------



## VeryHurt

phillybeffandswiss said:


> All I am saying is, she gets some kick from those texts to save them all this time. In my world, all contact with another woman would have been long deleted if I got back with an ex. Heck, the first thing I would have done is see if the dudes number was or is still in the phone. We are engaged. There is no reason, minus having a child, to have an ex's contact information anywhere in your life to me.


PB&S ~
I will confirm with my son if the texts and pictures are still there. 
Like Hurt Dude, I think he's drinking with his buddies as we speak.
I hurt for him.
VH


----------



## tom67

VeryHurt said:


> Hi Tom ~
> 
> He knows his name, address, cell number. I have not asked my son if he thinks she is still in contact with him. He does know that once he dumped her, he has not returned to the bar where he picked her up.
> Apparently this guy "hits on younger women all the time." My son did say that she does not keep her cell phone locked.


It's your kids call on this one if it were me...

For his fiance's sake for medical reasons and well it's the right thing to do, he should let her know.
He probably has found another harpie so to speak.
Anyway it would be a little ego boost for him and he needs it.
He HAS to read hurtdude.:frown2:


----------



## where_are_we

I think if he ends this relationship then he has dodged a bullet. Why would he want to willingly go into this.

I have a 25 year old son and I would advise him to walk away. Better he found out now. I am so sorry for your son - and for you to have to watch him hurt.


----------



## tom67

where_are_we said:


> I think if he ends this relationship then he has dodged a bullet. Why would he want to willingly go into this.
> 
> I have a 25 year old son and I would advise him to walk away. Better he found out now. I am so sorry for your son - and for you to have to watch him hurt.


Looking back at 25 I was a dope with women...
Sometimes it takes rough life lessons sadly.


----------



## tom67

If your son is doing this because of the $$$ you have deposited you and your ex should be on a united front with this one and tell him money comes and money goes do not be a martyr and marry her.
Should be uncomfortable for stbxh.
If he wants to go through with this he pays maybe that will expose the narco bpd whatever she is.


----------



## Popcorn2015

VeryHurt said:


> He read what her girlfriends aka bridesmaids texted her during the time she was with the other guy:
> 
> What the fvck are you doing?
> This guy is a player.
> He just has a baby.
> What is wrong with you?
> We told he was weird.
> You are drinking too much


Tell your son to marry one of those girls instead. :smile2:


----------



## tom67

Popcorn2015 said:


> Tell your son to marry one of those girls instead. :smile2:


:allhail::allhail::iagree::iagree::iagree:
Are they hot???>>


----------



## alte Dame

tom67 said:


> Looking back at 25 I was a dope with women...
> Sometimes it takes rough life lessons sadly.


And I was a dope with men. I tell my own son when he asks me why women his age do the things they do, I tell him, 'Look, honey, you can't imagine how clueless women that age are. They don't have real plans and don't understand men. They're just doing what they are doing, often just reacting in the moment. And they are SELF-ABSORBED. It comes with the territory of being that age.'

That being said, there are great young women out there - relatively clueless, yes, but with good hearts (like my 29-yo single daughter, who lives in the SF Bay Area, VH, in case your son would like to meet a sweet, smart young woman - only kidding, of course, but they are out there and I'm not above a plug or two when it comes to my awesome kids  ).

Your son's gf is heartbreak hotel for him. He has to check out or he will have a miserable life. He should break up for certain, go dark on her, do the 180 for himself, and find a nice woman.


----------



## Popcorn2015

tom67 said:


> Are they hot???>>


I was originally going to post "Tell your son to marry the hottest one of those girls", but I thought that would sound shallow.


----------



## VeryHurt

alte Dame said:


> And I was a dope with men. I tell my own son when he asks me why women his age do the things they do, I tell him, 'Look, honey, you can't imagine how clueless women that age are. They don't have real plans and don't understand men. They're just doing what they are doing, often just reacting in the moment. And they are SELF-ABSORBED. It comes with the territory of being that age.'
> 
> That being said, there are great young women out there - relatively clueless, yes, but with good hearts (like my 29-yo single daughter, who lives in the SF Bay Area, VH, in case your son would like to meet a sweet, smart young woman - only kidding, of course, but they are out there and I'm not above a plug or two when it comes to my awesome kids  ).
> 
> Your son's gf is heartbreak hotel for him. He has to check out or he will have a miserable life. He should break up for certain, go dark on her, do the 180 for himself, and find a nice woman.


You are too funny. He went to school in SF and graduated summa cum laude and he is now a CPA. He just may return there. :smile2:


----------



## alte Dame

VeryHurt said:


> You are too funny. He went to school in SF and graduated summa cum laude and he is now a CPA. He just may return there. :smile2:


My daughter has a PhD in chemistry and is a researcher in a government lab here. She says she's too busy to have a life outside of work. Sigh.


----------



## sapientia

This^ is awesome. Mother's Matchmaking service.


----------



## Mr Blunt

VH
You may not like my bluntness but I will tell you how it appears to me.

*Your son does not have enough self-respect for himself to face the reality that this women is a bar fly that gets drunk and drops her panties because she did not get a ring.* She cannot wait a few months so how is she ever going to wait for years as a married wife to your son? She can only make his life miserable.

We all know that this woman has a lot of serous baggage but the real issue for your son is himself.* He should make up his mind (mind over emotions) that he is completely through with this woman, no more wondering.* No more thinking about her at all. If he starts to think about her he needs to make himself stop. Of course he needs to get professional help and also all the help and support from you and the others that really love him. Your son needs to tell himself every day or every hour that he is a good man and needs to believe that and get fighting mad. He then should use that emotion and all other emotions to build himself up in every way. Ask your son to make a plan and then force himself to follow that plan with determination and dedication. DO NOT have him follow his emotions but have him follow his professional advice and his plan.

I know my post is not addressing the emotional part of this but for now the emotional part will probably work against him. He is an emotion disaster right now and needs to rely on other practical steps for him to recover.

He can get a LOT better and in the future this will be like a high school break up. He has many decades to live and she is just a stumbling block that will trouble him for about 2-3% of his life if he does it right. *Millions have gotten a LOT better after something like this and he can also!*


Bottom line for your son:
DO NOT question your manhood and DO NOT think about her anymore; make up your mind with steely determination that you are going to drop her as if she was vomit. Get good professional help, make a plan for you to get stronger and pour all your energy and determination into your plan; no EXCUSES!
If you do not do this you risk becoming a door mat and a wimp!


----------



## Catherine602

He needs to let this girl go. From what you say, her good qualities are that she does not hide who she is. 

It is also the source of her problems, she is deceptive, disloyal, unable to delay or deny herself what she wants when she wants it, no mater what the consequences. The cheating and financial irresponsibility are examples. 

This is who she is if he wants to go ahed with the marriage, he should do so with knowledge and consideration. She may change but it will be when she wants and only after she hits rock bottom. He may not want to bottom out with her. 

I think your son is plan B and I don't think she loves or cares about him. She is most likely kept him on ice while she checked this other guy out. Your son is too available to his gf and too forgiving where it has not been earned. 

His willingness to continue the relationship and to seek her love has parallels to his relationship with his father. He puts up with his fathers abuse while trying to earn his love. This is familiar territory for him, he is marrying a person similar to his father, someone he knows.


----------



## Rugs

It's too late (early) for me to read six pages of replies but the first thing that sticks out to me is a 30 year old man not being able to hold his sh!t together at work and crying in the restroom. 

I'm guessing (or hoping) your son has gone through a few heartbreaks before. ?? 

Yes, dumping the girl goes without question. I think he did the smart thing and she failed the test by betraying your son. 

He appears to have made some big life changes that have tested him and I would consider a few therapy sessions to sort out the stress in his life.


----------



## Satya

Many have offered good replies. 

VH, I think your son sounds inexperienced with relationships as well as being insecure. However, from your post, it seems like he has good awareness, it's just in an early stage. I say this in response to his comment about her not being good for him. She absolutely is not. 

He's a grown arse man, asking outside for advice. He could have lost his job over her - many employers don't give a rats about personal issues, let alone say it's OK to fly over to fix stuff. That likely did NOT go down well for his track record. He seems to not have the confidence in knowing what he wants and being assertive. Rather, he seems lost.

Although his gf is clearly not marriage material, 6 years is long enough to know if she was. He did right by weighing how she lives and what value she brings to the relationship, but many women wouldn't want to wait 6 years for commitment. My thought is he should have let her go after 2 years if she wasn't instilling him with complete confidence by then. He certainly wasn't offering her confidence by stalling. So, she decided she needed her ego stroked and found someone else to do that. 

Your son will hurt, but seems like he has a bad case of oneitis. He's pining for a woman that would shag another guy, then stand on a moral soapbox like it was no big deal. I think you should encourage your son to seek IC and go completely dark on this woman. He will need good male influence here as well. I think the best advice for men struggling with relationships comes from other men in successful ones.


----------



## tom67

Satya said:


> Many have offered good replies.
> 
> VH, I think your son sounds inexperienced with relationships as well as being insecure. However, from your post, it seems like he has good awareness, it's just in an early stage. I say this in response to his comment about her not being good for him. She absolutely is not.
> 
> He's a grown arse man, asking outside for advice. He could have lost his job over her - many employers don't give a rats about personal issues, let alone say it's OK to fly over to fix stuff. That likely did NOT go down well for his track record. He seems to not have the confidence in knowing what he wants and being assertive. Rather, he seems lost.
> 
> Although his gf is clearly not marriage material, 6 years is long enough to know if she was. He did right by weighing how she lives and what value she brings to the relationship, but many women wouldn't want to wait 6 years for commitment. My thought is he should have let her go after 2 years if she wasn't instilling him with complete confidence by then. He certainly wasn't offering her confidence by stalling. So, she decided she needed her ego stroked and found someone else to do that.
> 
> Your son will hurt, but seems like he has a bad case of oneitis. He's pining for a woman that would shag another guy, then stand on a moral soapbox like it was no big deal. I think you should encourage your son to seek IC and go completely dark on this woman. He will need good male influence here as well. I think the best advice for men struggling with relationships comes from other men in successful ones.


:iagree::iagree:
If he wants to go down this dark path do not enable but of course you can't stop him.
I hope he makes the right choice.


----------



## Rugs

Satya said:


> Many have offered good replies.
> 
> VH, I think your son sounds inexperienced with relationships as well as being insecure. However, from your post, it seems like he has good awareness, it's just in an early stage. I say this in response to his comment about her not being good for him. She absolutely is not.
> 
> He's a grown arse man, asking outside for advice. He could have lost his job over her - many employers don't give a rats about personal issues, let alone say it's OK to fly over to fix stuff. That likely did NOT go down well for his track record. He seems to not have the confidence in knowing what he wants and being assertive. Rather, he seems lost.
> 
> Although his gf is clearly not marriage material, 6 years is long enough to know if she was. He did right by weighing how she lives and what value she brings to the relationship, but many women wouldn't want to wait 6 years for commitment. My thought is he should have let her go after 2 years if she wasn't instilling him with complete confidence by then. He certainly wasn't offering her confidence by stalling. So, she decided she needed her ego stroked and found someone else to do that.
> 
> Your son will hurt, but seems like he has a bad case of oneitis. He's pining for a woman that would shag another guy, then stand on a moral soapbox like it was no big deal. I think you should encourage your son to seek IC and go completely dark on this woman. He will need good male influence here as well. I think the best advice for men struggling with relationships comes from other men in successful ones.


^^ This is what I wanted to say but was too tired to think it out. Much better wording here. ^^.


----------



## VeryHurt

Catherine602 said:


> He needs to let this girl go. From what you say, her good qualities are that she does not hide who she is.
> 
> It is also the source of her problems, she is deceptive, disloyal, unable to delay or deny herself what she wants when she wants it, no mater what the consequences. The cheating and financial irresponsibility are examples.
> 
> This is who she is if he wants to go ahed with the marriage, he should do so with knowledge and consideration. She may change but it will be when she wants and only after she hits rock bottom. He may not want to bottom out with her.
> 
> I think your son is plan B and I don't think she loves or cares about him. She is most likely kept him on ice while she checked this other guy out. Your son is too available to his gf and too forgiving where it has not been earned.
> 
> His willingness to continue the relationship and to seek her love has parallels to his relationship with his father. He puts up with his fathers abuse while trying to earn his love. This is familiar territory for him, he is marrying a person similar to his father, someone he knows.


Catherine ~

BTW, Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family!

I think my son is more like me actually. Look at my "willingness to continue the relationship ........." 

You know the total sh!t I put up with for 7+ fvcking years !!!!!!!

I think my son is emotionally needy like me as well. 

Don't you think he is more like me?

VH


----------



## VeryHurt

alte Dame said:


> My daughter has a PhD in chemistry and is a researcher in a government lab here. She says she's too busy to have a life outside of work. Sigh.


Oh, our Grandchildren would be so smart !!! :smile2:


----------



## VeryHurt

Satya said:


> Many have offered good replies.
> 
> VH, I think your son sounds inexperienced with relationships as well as being insecure. However, from your post, it seems like he has good awareness, it's just in an early stage. I say this in response to his comment about her not being good for him. She absolutely is not.
> 
> He's a grown arse man, asking outside for advice. He could have lost his job over her - many employers don't give a rats about personal issues, let alone say it's OK to fly over to fix stuff. That likely did NOT go down well for his track record. He seems to not have the confidence in knowing what he wants and being assertive. Rather, he seems lost.
> 
> Although his gf is clearly not marriage material, 6 years is long enough to know if she was. He did right by weighing how she lives and what value she brings to the relationship, but many women wouldn't want to wait 6 years for commitment. My thought is he should have let her go after 2 years if she wasn't instilling him with complete confidence by then. He certainly wasn't offering her confidence by stalling. So, she decided she needed her ego stroked and found someone else to do that.
> 
> Your son will hurt, but seems like he has a bad case of oneitis. He's pining for a woman that would shag another guy, then stand on a moral soapbox like it was no big deal. I think you should encourage your son to seek IC and go completely dark on this woman. He will need good male influence here as well. I think the best advice for men struggling with relationships comes from other men in successful ones.


Hi ~
Does anyone know how I can send Satya's post to my son?
Thank you Satya !!!
VH


----------



## Satya

VeryHurt said:


> Hi ~
> Does anyone know how I can send Satya's post to my son?
> Thank you Satya !!!
> VH


VH, send him this link, it should work:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...you-please-help-me-my-son-6.html#post14254393

ETA: if you just want to send the text, best to copy/paste this into an email to him maybe.
I don't think my advice is any better than what anyone else has written here, but thank you for your appreciation.


----------



## G.J.

You don't need any advice us telling what to advise your son on what to do ref the relationship with this cheater

You just need to be there for your son to help him through his heartache

If he hasn't faced rejection yet then he will find this 'his long time love' especially hard to get past

but GET PAST HE HAS TO UNLEES HE WANTS A LIFETIME OR AT THE LEAST MANY YEARS OF AN UNFAITHFUL WIFE

He will realize later, perhaps much later what a close call he had


----------



## just got it 55

VeryHurt said:


> Hi ~
> Does anyone know how I can send Satya's post to my son?
> Thank you Satya !!!
> VH


Copy and paste to a word doc and e mail it to him

VH.....your son is just like you He does need the influence of a good man
Maybe one of his uncles (your brothers) can put him in the right state of mind, clear is head and point himself in the right direction.

55


----------



## VeryHurt

just got it 55 said:


> Copy and paste to a word doc and e mail it to him
> 
> VH.....your son is just like you He does need the influence of a good man
> Maybe one of his uncles (your brothers) can put him in the right state of mind, clear is head and point himself in the right direction.
> 
> 55


55 ~

He has reached out to my brother in Texas many times. My brother has two sons the same age as my son. He is quite calm and very paternal.

My son's dad is a weak pathetic person who mainly cares about himself and has professed, "I have done enough for you and "M" and now it's my turn."

VH


----------



## VeryHurt

G.J. said:


> You don't need any advice us telling what to advise your son on what to do ref the relationship with this cheater
> 
> You just need to be there for your son to help him through his heartache
> 
> If he hasn't faced rejection yet then he will find this 'his long time love' especially hard to get past
> 
> but GET PAST HE HAS TO UNLEES HE WANTS A LIFETIME OR AT THE LEAST MANY YEARS OF AN UNFAITHFUL WIFE
> 
> He will realize later, perhaps much later what a close call he had


Thanks G.J. ~
I will always be there for my son. 
He may be 30 but he still needs a Mom.
VH


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I have a # of sons.. a fear of mine is if they succumb to women with character of what you've described here, getting entangled with one of those (surely there were signs BEFORE THIS episode at the bar?).. because once they FALL.. *they fall hard*.. and nothing can tear a guy down more than betrayal like this.. 

I am quoting this from another post I read earlier.. it's a great piece of advice.. even if it's just too hard for your son to swallow right now...it's logical and true in the scheme of life.. and finding someone worthy of who he is... .



Ynot said:


> - you have a bad case of oneitis. Don't despair, many of us have had the same feelings. You fixate on this one woman. Thinking she is the one and only person in the world who can make you happy. It all makes sense, at least to you. But the reality is that it doesn't make any sense at all. It is a mirage that your ego clings to to try to protect itself.
> 
> Google oneitis there are cures for it. The one I recommend is that you focus solely on yourself, to become the best person you can be. You will gain so much from focusing on yourself. Your fixation will disappear, your self esteem will improve and you will be happier in the long run.


----------



## jsmart

Your son needs to work on his self-confidence. He must feel he'll never get a girl like her. But she's garbage. Even her friends know better. She's willing to be an older man's play thing. The POS wasn't getting anything from his pregnant fiance so he used your son's girlfriend as a cvm bucket. I'm sure she's performed outrageous acts for him that she wouldn't do for your son. It's the M.O. of cheating wh0res. 

If he's already left the job in Cali, then encourage him to look elsewhere. Staying in Jersey, he'll be surrounded with reminders of her and will not detach. He'll be preoccupied with who's she's with. 

Point him to this forum. He can start his on thread and get the need 2x4. TAM is a treasure trove for wisdom and advice that you won't get from feminist dominated mainstream advice sites and counselors that downplay and run interference for female infidelity.


----------



## Marc878

She is on prize. 

He needs to have a heart to heart with a man to get some first hand insight on how quickly a marriage or even a relationship can be with this hopefully X.

He extremely lucky and doesn't know it yet.

Unfortunately he's young and doesn't have the tools yet to deal with this. All you can Do is warn him.

Usually they come out ok but you're his mom and stuff like this sucks.


----------



## JohnA

More likely a man will explain it terms he can grasp. But the truth is this is gender neutral matter. In fact a women might be able to drive home the issue far more effectively than a man every could. I have known several such women. They are as rare and valuable as 25 carrot flawless diamonds.


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## JohnA

What about chump lady? Haven't read her blog much, but have read a lot of posts by guys who rave about her.


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## JohnA

Speaking of satya she had a response that illustrates my thoughts perfectly. In response to a question about doing the 180 with a spouse who you have children with: "stoic and diplomatic".

Wow short sweet and right. Exactly the type of answer a guy tends to want and excel at following. The fact a woman who seems kind, pataient, and understanding in nature (from a limited reading of her posts) triple wow !!! Information form inside the enemy's camp !!! Case closed next issue.


----------



## sapientia

jsmart said:


> *You expect a woman to be scatter brained* when she's going wayward but when men do it, it's so unbecoming.


Do you?



JohnA said:


> More likely a man will explain it terms he can grasp. *But the truth is this is gender neutral matter. * In fact a women might be able to drive home the issue far more effectively than a man every could. I have known several such women. They are as rare and valuable as 25 carrot flawless diamonds.


Thank you John. I agree, it sounds like VH son could use a perspective that isn't biased by either of his parents' issues.

This topic was one of the deciding factors for why I left my ex. My IC and I discussed the implications of teaching my son a poor lesson about self-respect and tolerating bad behaviour from others by staying in an emotionally abusive relationship.

Good luck to both you and your son, VH.


----------



## GusPolinski

Hey so has he dumped her yet?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## weightlifter

alte Dame said:


> If he were my son, VH, (and I have a 28-yo son), I would tell him that he has to go through the process of mourning the loss of what he thought was a life partner, but that he has dodged a bullet. He won't see that now, but he will understand that soon enough.
> 
> I would get him a copy of the 180 and encourage him to force himself to detach.
> 
> You and I and all of TAM know that he is well rid of her. It will take some time for him to feel it, too.
> 
> (Also, if he is not averse to reading here, I might get him to go through bff's thread.)


PURE GOLD.
Have him not only read BFF's thread, but also the thread by Whyeme.

Both threads start off as crash and burn. Both end EPIC awesome and span several years.


----------



## Evinrude58

I'll just add that:
What kind of woman has sex with older men with new babies? What kind of woman does sex acts with this kind of man that she wouldn't do in a committed relationship?
What kind of woman "needs a break" from a man she is willing to marry? 

I would say it's the kind of woman a man sends down the road. It may hurt, but it's all he can do. Surely he has to see that if he married her, his life will be absolute mental torture worrying about what and who she is doing. I believe she just wants him to marry her because if he does, he is proving that he will tolerate anything and she can run and play while he enables her lewd behavior from now on. Ask him why he quit his job...... That's not a good sign. It appears to me she has screwed up his ambition. She will screw up his while life if he lets her. 
Choose wisely young man! There's few good ones out there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

Evinrude58 said:


> I'll just add that:
> What kind of woman has sex with older men with new babies? What kind of woman does sex acts with this kind of man that she wouldn't do in a committed relationship?
> What kind of woman "needs a break" from a man she is willing to marry?
> 
> I would say it's the kind of woman a man sends down the road. It may hurt, but it's all he can do. Surely he has to see that if he married her, his life will be absolute mental torture worrying about what and who she is doing. I believe she just wants him to marry her because if he does, he is proving that he will tolerate anything and she can run and play while he enables her lewd behavior from now on. Ask him why he quit his job...... That's not a good sign. It appears to me she has screwed up his ambition. She will screw up his while life if he lets her.
> Choose wisely young man! There's few good ones out there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Catherine602

I thought about this VH and I change my mind about what I wrote before. I believe you should not give him explicit directions about what he should do, if indeed you are. If he feels strongly about taking her back, then that's what he should do. Means that he is not emotionally ready to give up at present. If you advise him too vehemently to dump her, he may distance himself from you when and if he takes her back.

Then when/if he decides to leave, he may feel shame and remain alienated. You want him to feel that he can come to you no matter what he does. You support him with or without her. I wouldn't badmouth his fiancé (not that you are but a few poster have). 

Your son has been with his fiancé for a long time so he may not be able to turn on a dime. He needs to feel absolutely sure that he can let go before he actually does. He may leave incrementally, getting back together and breaking up a few times. When he realizes that she is no longer the woman he fell in love with then he will let go completely. 

I really believe that the decisions we make in intimate relationships follow idiosyncratic rules. People on the outside don't see the mechanics of the closed universe of the relationship. However, when one or the other inhabitants pop out of the bubble, then the relationship is over.


----------



## VeryHurt

Update:

The Therapist (actually, the Psychiatrist who diagnosed him with ADD when he was 8 years old) advised him to learn "absolutely everything before he proceeds with this engagement."

My son admitted to her that he "looked through her phone and saw all the texts and pictures" that went back to May. That is what he wanted to "confess" to her.

Then he wanted her to "spill her guts and tell him everything." He compared what she told him against the text messages and "something doesn't add up."

He told me just 10 minutes ago that he "does not completely trust her." I said to him, "Then why are we mailing out the Save the Date cards tomorrow?"

He said that he "loves her" "but he wants to know the truth" even if it will kill him.

Last weekend the went to the the Priest who will marry him. They took a compatibility "test" in different rooms with 150 questions. They need to return and the Priest will review their answers. 

He once again asked me, "Who is she? Who wants to be with the older guy with a fiancee and a new baby?" I was hesitant but I told him that she was like my STBX's OW. One knew he was married w/ a family and one knew he was engaged w/ a family.

When he heard this he was not happy but I said it anyway.

He goes back to the Psychiatrist this Wednesday evening. 

In the meantime, I am not mailing the "Save the Date" cards.

VH


----------



## GusPolinski

VeryHurt said:


> Update:
> 
> The Therapist (actually, the Psychiatrist who diagnosed him with ADD when he was 8 years old) advised him to learn "absolutely everything before he proceeds with this engagement."
> 
> My son admitted to her that he "looked through her phone and saw all the texts and pictures" that went back to May. That is what he wanted to "confess" to her.
> 
> Then he wanted her to "spill her guts and tell him everything." He compared what she told him against the text messages and "something doesn't add up."
> 
> He told me just 10 minutes ago that he "does not completely trust her." I said to him, "Then why are we mailing out the Save the Date cards tomorrow?"
> 
> He said that he "loves her" "but he wants to know the truth" even if it will kill him.
> 
> Last weekend the went to the the Priest who will marry him. They took a compatibility "test" in different rooms with 150 questions. They need to return and the Priest will review their answers.
> 
> He once again asked me, "Who is she? Who wants to be with the older guy with a fiancee and a new baby?" I was hesitant but I told him that she was like my STBX's OW. One knew he was married w/ a family and one knew he was engaged w/ a family.
> 
> When he heard this he was not happy but I said it anyway.
> 
> He goes back to the Psychiatrist this Wednesday evening.
> 
> In the meantime, I am not mailing the "Save the Date" cards.
> 
> VH


Tell.

Him.

To.

Dump.

Her.


----------



## syhoybenden

Please please please do not let him make the biggest mistake of his life.

Even still considering marriage to that .... "person" .... is utter madness.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

No offense to you VH, but questionnaires are BS. My good friend did the same at his wife's behest pre-marriage and he still ended up divorced. We can match on 2 million things, but if one of those things is completely against my morality I would not compromise. It's why my fiance and I didn't get married. 

A moral incompatibility isn't like my wife hating my music and I hating hers. In her car I listen to hers, in my car she listens to mine or we listen to oldies where we have mutual interests. Having sex, even on a break, when we have been talking marriage is a no go. I was wildly in love myself, but I said nope. Yes, it hurt, but no way would I be in that mess.


----------



## sapientia

A friend of mine gave me some wise words:

Breakups suck, but they do get easier each time. It's a skill one learns. Not that it hurts any less each time, but you do learn that you WILL feel better with time. Life goes on.

Sounds like he is afraid of pain and the future. Not surprising with his first breakup. Find some way to let him know that 'this too shall pass'. Sometimes you have to break up in order to find someone better. He'll do just fine.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

> He once again asked me, "Who is she? Who wants to be with the older guy with a fiancee and a new baby?" I was hesitant but I told him that she was like my STBX's OW. One knew he was married w/ a family and one knew he was engaged w/ a family.


 This was a very smart thing to tell him. It brings it home and it is something he can visually understand through your pain.


----------



## Evinrude58

Ask him if he trusts this woman. Ask him if he sees himself happy with her, knowing what she is capable of. Ask him if he thinks she is the only woman for him, and if he says yes, if he thinks that is the answer an emotionally stable man would give. Ask him if she needed a break or wanted a chance to chase other men, and why she should have wanted to so soon after he left for California. If he marries this woman, she will be the worst decision he ever made. The divorce courts are ripe with cash and prizes for immoral women. Ask him if he wants to pay her to be with another man after she divorces him in a few years when she meets her "soulmate" either at work or just out and about.
You have got to at least shake him awake before he marries her out of fear of losing her. You know this is wrong for him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thor

VeryHurt said:


> My son admitted to her that he "looked through her phone and saw all the texts and pictures" that went back to May. That is what he wanted to "confess" to her.
> 
> Then he wanted her to "spill her guts and tell him everything." He compared what she told him against the text messages and "something doesn't add up."
> 
> He told me just 10 minutes ago that he "does not completely trust her."


Yes, he _knows_ she cannot be trusted! Both by testing her the way he did and by his direct statement to you that he doesn't trust her. He needs to be challenged on why he wants to marry someone who cheated on him and whom he cannot trust. I would ask him directly about those things in a probing manner to get hm to think about it.

Further, I think he is projecting his values onto her. By that I mean he is an honest person. He even felt guilty looking at her phone when he was suspicious! If you ask him a specific question he would answer it honestly. And he thinks this is how his fiance's mind works, but it doesn't. He doesn't understand that some people have a completely different way of thinking. He doesn't recognize that _for her_ it is not wrong, nor does it cause her feelings of guilt, _to lie to him about really big important things_. She sees the world as a place where lying to your fiance is how things are done.

Asking her to tell the truth will never work. He will never get the full story from her. She will never be trustworthy.

Finally, he doesn't have to hate her to break up with her. She can be 99% wonderful, but if that other 1% is not there, she won't be a good spouse. Imagine a wonderful dog, the best family pet ever. Except once each year it bites a small child in the face leaving permanent scars. We'd love the dog but hate the terrible flaw. That terrible flaw makes the dog impossible to keep.

His fiance has a terrible unfixable flaw.


----------



## turnera

VeryHurt said:


> He called me this morning to tell me she said, "You are never going to get over this and I don't want to deal with it anymore."
> 
> My son said to me, 'I really don't think she cares about me or my feelings."
> 
> What would you advise him if he was your son?
> 
> Thank you so much ~
> 
> PS: Oh, she told him a few times that "they were on a break" and what happened was none of his business."


I would advise him to start going to therapy on a weekly basis for at least 6 months, to learn to love himself, value himself, and find his self worth. And I would advise him to consider what I went through with his father for umpteen years because his father was cut from the same cloth as his fiance, and does he want to put himself through what I (and he) went through just to be with that person. And I would advise him to count his blessings that he found out NOW instead of marrying a User like that, and to get excited about meeting a great woman in San Francisco, out of the millions of women there.


----------



## MJJEAN

Priest? Are they, perchance, planning to marry in the Church? If so, pre-cana should be 6 months and fully completed before the wedding. The priest also has the ability to refuse to marry any couple if he believes there are unresolved issues that would effect the validity of the Sacrament. Such as, say, a predisposition to infidelity.

Talk to the priest yourself. Explain to him your marital issues and what has transpired between your son, the fiancee, and the engaged with a baby OM. Two reasons. 

First, the priest will want to talk about the affair in pre-marital counseling. He may also want to address the efffects of your marriage on your son.

Second, there will be a record of the fiancees predisposition to infidelity. This is important because, if they do marry, they may end up divorced. If they divorce, your son will have to apply for Annulment before being considered free to date and remarry in the Church. Having records documenting that the fiancee was willing to have an affair with an engaged man who had a newborn would provide evidence of solid grounds for Annulment.


----------



## bABI

VH...your son will NEVER get over this mistrust, and it will lead to insane paranoia. She's not helping matters by not being forth coming about the issue.
He simply does not have the courage to walk away from the relationship. Maybe it's the 'moral guilt' of being the one who walked away or he's probably afraid of the feeling of being 'lonely'.
Remind him...A BROKEN RELATIONSHIP/ENGAGEMENT IS FAR BETTER THAN A BROKEN MARRIAGE


----------



## VeryHurt

Update:

Can anyone say "Trickle Truth?"

He took the ring back !!

He isn't feeling REAL remorse.

Trust is NOT there for him or her.

Details:

The had a blowout yesterday morning and exchanged harsh words. 

He is frustrated because he claims he "gets different stories." 

Now get this and I need *HELP FROM THE EXPERTS AT TAM:*

She said if she has to tell him the truth or if he makes her tell him everything, she will get *ANGRY* :wtf::wtf::wtf:

Explain that to me and MY son.

Thank you ~

VH


----------



## jsmart

Hubris. This woman thinks very little of your son. He did the right thing by taking the ring back. Please give him assurance that he did the right thing. Despite the anger, he's probably having doubt and could cave if she approaches him in a way that seems like she is remorseful. 

Of course it will be an act. This girl is incapable of loving and respecting your son. She has completely detached from him when she gave her all to older father to be Fiance.


----------



## lucy999

Oh good gravy this woman is a prize:frown2: she's pissed because she's busted.

Forgive me if I'm repeating, but I strongly encourage your son to read chumplady dot com. Any sort of confusion or hesitation will be cleared up pronto. Her mantra will serve your son well: trust that she (his fiancee) sucks.

Im elated he took the ring back!

Eta: true love should NOT be this difficult! This should be the happiest time of their lives!


----------



## aine

"She will get angry" OMG! she ought to be be the winner of the biggest 'beatch' of the year

YOur son's fiance is callous, cold hearted, immature and entitled. He is young and has all the time in the world to meet the right woman. Why isn't he really angry about this, she seems to have the control in the relationship. Please do not let him tie himself to this woman, she will only cause him misery. The bottom line is she is a bottom feeder who doesn't give a rat's a$$ about your son!

Talk to the priest, that might hold off things for a while and tell your son to postpone the nuptials so as to get his head sorted out. 

This girl is showing no remorse at all, she should be kicked to the kerb as fast as swatting a fly, she is bad bad news.


----------



## weightlifter

VeryHurt said:


> Now get this and I need *HELP FROM THE EXPERTS AT TAM:*
> 
> She said if she has to tell him the truth or if he makes her tell him everything, she will get *ANGRY* :wtf::wtf::wtf:
> 
> Explain that to me and MY son.
> [/COLOR]


A threat? OH NO! She wont marry him now!
er wait.
Given how screwed up she is. She might retaliate BY marrying him.


----------



## MattMatt

Threat or a blessing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## VeryHurt

He called me on the way to work this morning. 

Apparently after he took the ring back yesterday morning, she did NOT go to work she stayed home. (They live together.)

She called a few friends (two bridesmaids) and her Mom and they all met after work at the bar/restaurant where a third bridesmaid works.

After this "girl-fest" she drove back home. By this time, my son was home from work and they talked.

He said she was "a mess" and was "crying."

I asked him, "What was she saying? Did she say that I can't believe this is happening, I love you, what can I do, what do you want me to do ........." He told me that she "barely said anything and I did 90% of the talking."

Then he says to me, "Mom, I am wondering if all the girls got together so they could discuss what she should say to me?"

See what I mean? He is continually suspicious. 

What should I do?

I can't tell him NOT to marry her. What if I am wrong?

VH


----------



## turnera

VeryHurt said:


> She said if she has to tell him the truth or if he makes her tell him everything, she will get *ANGRY* :wtf::wtf::wtf:


Oh, that's easy. Along the way, she has learned that he is a Nice Guy and tried to please her to get her to be with him. She has learned that - until now, anyway - all she has to do is express anger and the Nice Guy freaks out and caves, and she gets what she wants.

Luckily, with your help, he's learning that's not the way to go!

Has he read No More Mr Nice Guy yet? I'd send that to him.

VH, go ahead and tell him not to marry her. Maybe they'll marry later down the road, IF she hits her rock bottom (nowhere near that yet) and gets her head out of her ass. For NOW, tell him not to marry her. This will give her an opportunity to prove to him that she deserves him.

You AND your son have been conditioned by your stbx's actions and arrogance and self-righteousness (just like his gf's) to NOT TRUST YOUR OWN FEELINGS. So urge him to walk away, so that he can experience the thrill and strength of standing up for yourself, just like you have been doing this past year. That's where the real benefit is - learning this, shedding the fear your stbx instilled in him, and realizing he DOES have strength in his relationships. Priceless.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

She got some strange and now doesn't care about plan b one way or another. 

Now he needs to get some strange. See how she measures up after seeing someone else for a few months. 

Also I think the standard tam infidelity stuff still applies. Exposure, and especially telling the OM's fiancé. Letting her marry the OM without knowing what he did is just unconscionable.


----------



## VeryHurt

turnera said:


> Oh, that's easy. Along the way, she has learned that he is a Nice Guy and tried to please her to get her to be with him. She has learned that - until now, anyway - all she has to do is express anger and the Nice Guy freaks out and caves, and she gets what she wants.
> 
> Luckily, with your help, he's learning that's not the way to go!
> 
> Has he read No More Mr Nice Guy yet? I'd send that to him.
> 
> VH, go ahead and tell him not to marry her. Maybe they'll marry later down the road, IF she hits her rock bottom (nowhere near that yet) and gets her head out of her ass. For NOW, tell him not to marry her. This will give her an opportunity to prove to him that she deserves him.
> 
> You AND your son have been conditioned by your stbx's actions and arrogance and self-righteousness (just like his gf's) to NOT TRUST YOUR OWN FEELINGS. So urge him to walk away, so that he can experience the thrill and strength of standing up for yourself, just like you have been doing this past year. That's where the real benefit is - learning this, shedding the fear your stbx instilled in him, and realizing he DOES have strength in his relationships. Priceless.


I did tell him to postpone the wedding. 

He sees the Psychiatrist every Wednesday night for two ($$) hours
and next week he wants my son to bring her along !!!


----------



## VeryHurt

WorkingOnMe said:


> She got some strange and now doesn't care about plan b one way or another.
> 
> Now he needs to get some strange. See how she measures up after seeing someone else for a few months.
> 
> Also I think the standard tam infidelity stuff still applies. Exposure, and especially telling the OM's fiancé. Letting her marry the OM without knowing what he did is just unconscionable.


My son told me yesterday that he received a message on Facebook from a "fake" name about his fiancee "stepping out of line."


----------



## Thor

Yes, she is manipulating him by saying she will get angry.

She also does not want any accountability for what she did. We all believe she was out of line with what she did, but if she believes it was ok then she should be willing to answer all his questions fully and honestly. If there's nothing wrong with what she did, why would it be a problem to tell him the truth about it? The least bad interpretation is that they are completely incompatible, where he wants to open honesty and she believes it is ok to keep important things secret. But I think what is really going on is that she knows if she tells him anywhere near the truth he will freak out and dump her.

The truth is always much bigger than whatever the cheater has admitted to.

Why does the psychiatrist want the ex-fiance to be there? His IC is for him, it is not couples' therapy.


----------



## syhoybenden

Could you please explain to me why in God's name they are still living together??

He should run like his ass is on fire.


----------



## VeryHurt

Thor said:


> Yes, she is manipulating him by saying she will get angry.
> 
> She also does not want any accountability for what she did. We all believe she was out of line with what she did, but if she believes it was ok then she should be willing to answer all his questions fully and honestly. If there's nothing wrong with what she did, why would it be a problem to tell him the truth about it? The least bad interpretation is that they are completely incompatible, where he wants to open honesty and she believes it is ok to keep important things secret. But I think what is really going on is that she knows if she tells him anywhere near the truth he will freak out and dump her.
> 
> The truth is always much bigger than whatever the cheater has admitted to.
> 
> Why does the psychiatrist want the ex-fiance to be there? His IC is for him, it is not couples' therapy.


This is just an assumption but I think the Shrink wants to observe their interactions/behaviors/body language.

Anyway, she did not balk at the idea.

I hate to see him so miserable. 

Do you know what he said yesterday to me? "Mom I was thinking about our wedding day and she is walking down the aisle and the first thing that pops in my mind is that she hurt me."

Isn't that sad?

I wonder if he is waiting for me to tell him to stop the wedding?


----------



## WorkingOnMe

I'm lost. He took back the ring but they're still engaged?


----------



## Thor

I would tell him to stop the wedding.


----------



## lucy999

VeryHurt said:


> He sees the Psychiatrist every Wednesday night for two ($$) hours
> and next week he wants my son to bring her along !!!


Oh HELL NO. Since when did your son's IC turn into MC? Did I miss something? Seriously, this is turning into a circus. The clowns just keep coming out of that clown car. 

VH, do you think it would help if he put pen to paper with the pros and cons? Do you think if he saw it in black and white it'd hit home?

I would've pulled the plug long ago, but I can tell you that the minute I found out my fiancée slept with a married woman and she and her partner just had a baby, I would've been done, done done. That's just not the caliber of person I'd want to spend my life with. I'd feel as if my fiancée was forever tainted.


----------



## VeryHurt

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm lost. He took back the ring but they're still engaged?


WOM ~

I'm a little confused as well. 

My gut tells me he wants to end it but he is scared. 

Yesterday he said to me, "Mom, I've always had my sh!t together but now I've never felt so lousy about myself."


----------



## lucy999

VeryHurt said:


> WOM ~
> 
> Yesterday he said to me, "Mom, I've always had my sh!t together but now I've never felt so lousy about myself."


Oh that breaks my heart. PLEASE reiterate to him that he _still_ has his shyt together. His fiancé, however, does not. 

ETA: remind him that true love shouldn't make him feel lousy. His fiancé should build him up and support him and love him. This is NOT what it should be. 

I realize you're stepping back and letting him decide what's best. I applaud you for that.

But, do you think he's really wanting to hear from his mother, who he loves so much, the unadulterated truth? I think just a mere, "Son, you know what I've been through with your father. We've both been through it. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. I don't want you to travel the same road I've traveled. If you marry her, you will be on the same road as I was/am."

How do you feel about saying something like that, VH?


----------



## WorkingOnMe

I guess I just don't understand how the conversation could have went. We're still engaged but give me the ring back. She cries all day but they haven't broken up? Did he tell he he just wanted to get it cleaned or something? Is he afraid to tell her it's over?


----------



## happy as a clam

> *~*~ Will you please help me with my son? ~*~*


Yes! Hand him this script:

"Hey, B*tch. You cheated on me and I'm done with you. Give me my ring back, this engagement is over. And while you're at it, get your sorry a$$ out of my apartment and back to where you came from. Good riddance!"

Then tell him to continue working with his IC.


----------



## VeryHurt

lucy999 said:


> Oh that breaks my heart. PLEASE reiterate to him that he _still_ has his shyt together. His fiancé, however, does not.
> 
> ETA: remind him that true love shouldn't make him feel lousy. His fiancé should build him up and support him and love him. This is NOT what it should be.
> 
> I realize you're stepping back and letting him decide what's best. I applaud you for that.
> 
> But, do you think he's really wanting to hear from his mother, who he loves so much, the unadulterated truth? I think just a mere, "Son, you know what I've been through with your father. We've both been through it. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. I don't want you to travel the same road I've traveled. If you marry her, you will be on the same road as I was/am."
> 
> How do you feel about saying something like that, VH?


Oh Lucy ~

I don't know if I can pull that off. 

He HATES when I make references to my marriage. 

He tells me, "I am NOT Dad and fiancee is NOT you!"

Many times he says to me, "I know I love her more than she loves me." UGH !!!!!!!! It's weird because MY Mom told me, "Make sure he loves you just a little bit more than you love him."

This is getting complicated!


----------



## WorkingOnMe

I don't think he's dad. I think he's you.


----------



## VeryHurt

WorkingOnMe said:


> I guess I just don't understand how the conversation could have went. We're still engaged but give me the ring back. She cries all day but they haven't broken up? Did he tell he he just wanted to get it cleaned or something? Is he afraid to tell her it's over?


Perhaps he is afraid. 
I will speak to him after work today and I'll see what he says to me.
My gut tells me that he has emotionally detached a tad. 
They started dating in June of 2009 so it is hard for him.


----------



## just got it 55

VeryHurt said:


> I did tell him to postpone the wedding.
> 
> He sees the Psychiatrist every Wednesday night for two ($$) hours
> and next week he wants my son to bring her along !!!


Holy Mother of Jesus

What now Match making

55


----------



## VeryHurt

happy as a clam said:


> Yes! Hand him this script:
> 
> "Hey, B*tch. You cheated on me and I'm done with you. Give me my ring back, this engagement is over. And while you're at it, get your sorry a$$ out of my apartment and back to where you came from. Good riddance!"
> 
> Then tell him to continue working with his IC.


I will try to get that message across to him!


----------



## VeryHurt

WorkingOnMe said:


> I don't think he's dad. I think he's you.



:iagree:

He is very emotional and sensitive. Lacks self-esteem. Is a push over. Is romantic. Doesn't like to argue. Is a DOORMAT !!!

HIS fiancee is like HIS Dad: unemotional, colder, rough around the edges, stubborn. The problem is he doesn't want to believe this!


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

VeryHurt said:


> She said if she has to tell him the truth or if he makes her tell him everything, she will get *ANGRY* :wtf::wtf::wtf:
> 
> Explain that to me and MY son.


This means that she did sexual acts with the OM that would have made a sailor blush.

Things that she probably hasn't done with your Son. She knows once she tells him, he'll never look at her the same again. Her not telling him is all about self preservation and nothing about not hurting him more.


If he marries this woman, he's is in for a much bigger world of hurt then what he's going through right now.

Ask him is he's really willing to risk going through this years from now, possibly with children and a mortgage? The doubts that he has right now will only get worse over time.

There are good reasons why he's having doubts about marrying her now. At least have him postpone the wedding for a year. I can just about guaranty you that either he'll come to his senses, or she'll leave/cheat on him again before they wed.


----------



## MJJEAN

Tell him not to marry her. Just flat out say it. Beg if you have to, yell if you must, but say it. If you don't, you'll regret it for the rest of your life and so will your son.


----------



## turnera

VeryHurt said:


> I wonder if he is waiting for me to tell him to stop the wedding?


Yes. Both of you have trouble making decisions and believing in your decisions because of your husband. But you have decades of experience and wisdom over him. So make this decision for him, until he's ready to do it himself.


----------



## turnera

VeryHurt said:


> I don't know if I can pull that off.
> 
> He HATES when I make references to my marriage.
> 
> He tells me, "I am NOT Dad and fiancee is NOT you!"


No, you're misunderstanding. He is YOU and his fiancee is Dad. Explain that she is doing the same thing to him that his dad did to you.

ETA: I see you already see that. But do explain it to him.


----------



## turnera

VeryHurt said:


> :iagree:
> 
> He is very emotional and sensitive. Lacks self-esteem. Is a push over. Is romantic. Doesn't like to argue. Is a DOORMAT !!!
> 
> HIS fiancee is like HIS Dad: unemotional, colder, rough around the edges, stubborn. The problem is he doesn't want to believe this!


Then I suggest that YOU go to his next meeting with him instead of his wife. His doctor needs to hear what she's REALLY dealing with. I'm sure his version of what happened to his parents isn't getting the whole thing. That will help the doctor better help him.


----------



## Evinrude58

syhoybenden said:


> Could you please explain to me why in God's name they are still living together??
> 
> He should run like his ass is on fire.


I thought this was good enough to be worth repeating.


This is a train wreck waiting to happen. If he keeps seeing her but calls off the wedding, it will likely be just a bump in the tracks, but if he marries her------we're talking trains hitting head-on and a major derailment......

Just tell him there is no way in Hades he should marry this rotten woman. Tell him in a loud voice. Slap him a couple of times to knock the cobwebs out. Do whatever it takes to make it known that he is upsetting his mom and will feel like a fool if he does marry her.
You should take no chances with this. :whip:


----------



## turnera

VH, gently, you do see why he is reticent to give her up, don't you? Because that's the model he had growing up. Stay at all costs, give give give, and hope they someday see your worth. Because they hold all the power.

That's all he's ever known, so it's what he does, too.

I mean, NOW, you are finally seeing the light yourself and moving forward, but your progress hasn't been around long enough for him to see that it works and to incorporate it into HIS belief system.

What he needs is good honest talk from you about how you should have ditched his dad 10 years ago and how much better off you would have been. 

Because your son can't see that yet. All he sees is that you left and are in pain. So, to him, standing up for yourself doesn't pay off because he hasn't seen the payoff for you yet.

Have that talk with him. Tell him how important it is to value yourself and walk away from someone who won't value you, too. Tell him you're a work in progress but to think how much worse off you would have been if you'd continued to stay and beg for scraps. Like he'll be doing if he doesn't walk away.


----------



## VeryHurt

turnera said:


> VH, gently, you do see why he is reticent to give her up, don't you? Because that's the model he had growing up. Stay at all costs, give give give, and hope they someday see your worth. Because they hold all the power.
> 
> That's all he's ever known, so it's what he does, too.
> 
> I mean, NOW, you are finally seeing the light yourself and moving forward, but your progress hasn't been around long enough for him to see that it works and to incorporate it into HIS belief system.
> 
> What he needs is good honest talk from you about how you should have ditched his dad 10 years ago and how much better off you would have been.
> 
> Because your son can't see that yet. All he sees is that you left and are in pain. So, to him, standing up for yourself doesn't pay off because he hasn't seen the payoff for you yet.
> 
> Have that talk with him. Tell him how important it is to value yourself and walk away from someone who won't value you, too. Tell him you're a work in progress but to think how much worse off you would have been if you'd continued to stay and beg for scraps. Like he'll be doing if he doesn't walk away.


I have been trying to call him ALL DAY but he turned off his phone!
It scares me Tunera because I DO SEE ME IN HIM AND VISA-VERSA.


----------



## G.J.

VeryHurt said:


> What should I do?
> 
> I can't tell him NOT to marry her. What if I am wrong?
> 
> VH


VH This is one of those times where being a parent is what its all about

He is/maybe waiting for your wise input

He's never been in this place before and its at the most important time in his young life

I'm sure he wants your input as mum, you know everything , you are always there, you know the best answers to everything that's how I looked at my folks

Tell him exactly what you think please ITS ONE OF THOSE TIMES


----------



## VeryHurt

G.J. said:


> VH This is one of those times where being a parent is what its all about
> 
> He is/maybe waiting for your wise input
> 
> He's never been in this place before and its at the most important time in his young life
> 
> I'm sure he wants your input as mum, you know everything , you are always there, you know the best answers to everything that's how I looked at my folks
> 
> Tell him exactly what you think please ITS ONE OF THOSE TIMES


GJ ~

Who am I to give him advice as I messed up my own life and marriage? 

I only know HIS side of the story?

VH


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Why can't you tell him what to do? The last fight between my dad and I occurred about the age of your son. He told me to stop being an idiot and I couldn't do something I was determined to do. Like your son, it would have ruined my career and led to more trouble. Now, whether I listened or not was ultimately up to me, I am an adult, but I know his treating me like a child snapped me out of my irrationality. Yes, I was pissed, but when I calmed down I was fine. We actually laugh about how stupid I was being at the time.

Just because we are of adult age doesn't mean we don't act like petulant children who need a strong wake up call.


----------



## G.J.

VeryHurt said:


> GJ ~
> 
> Who am I to give him advice as I messed up my own life and marriage?
> 
> I only know HIS side of the story?
> 
> VH


You have experience 

You messed up your life so surely you are more aware than most parents of certain pitfalls in the 
experience you have encountered ?

His side is all that matters at a time like this

If he wants and is looking for help from you, talking him through everything he knows and pointing 
out along the way when possible may help him make the decision 

You tell him what CAN happen to a marriage (you have been on these boards long enough) and why 
it needs to be rock solid from the start as it only gets harder down the road

You will be only highlighting what he tells you and I think you will be surprised when he talks through 
this *with help *he will answer his own problem what's the the best thing to do

Put on that brave face


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

VeryHurt said:


> GJ ~
> 
> Who am I to give him advice as I messed up my own life and marriage?


 You're his mom and he came to YOU. 
The end.



> GJ ~
> I only know HIS side of the story?
> 
> VH


So? We only know your side of the story in your main thread and this one. Does that make the advice therein any less valid? No, not one bit.


----------



## turnera

VeryHurt said:


> Who am I to give him advice as I messed up my own life and marriage?
> 
> I only know HIS side of the story?
> 
> VH


So what? You have been educating yourself about infidelity. You SEE what unrepentant cheaters look like. And she is an unrepentant cheater. So SHE IS GOING TO HURT HIM. 

And what is advice if not EXPERIENCE?

I'll be telling my daughter to do until the day I die...because I'm older than her, because I have 30 years' wisdom over her, and because I'M HER MOTHER.

That's what mothers do - tell their kids what to do, what's right, guide them.

I can't believe you don't feel secure enough to tell your own son what to do. Find that strength!


----------



## VeryHurt

He finally called me back and we spoke for about 30 minutes.

She is home with her parents. He is home with some friends, drinking a la Hurt Dude !!

She called and asked him, "Where are we at?"

He said, "I am hurt, confused and you have to realize all of this is new to me."

He said, "Mom, I don't know if I can deal with THIS?' 

I said, "Stop right there, what do you mean by THIS?"

He said, "I don't know if I can get over seeing her Texts where she sent him naked pictures of herself and she sent a video of her playing with herself."

(I can't believe I'm typing this stuff!)

He said, "Who is she? What was she thinking? 
Her (blank) could be all over the Internet. He could have bribe her. She did things for him that she wouldn't do for me."

I told me, "Dad and I support whatever you want to do."

If you have an iota of a doubt, you cannot marry her.

If you don't trust her, you cannot marry her.

If she does not meet your emotional needs, you cannot marry her.

If she is selfish or immature, you cannot marry her.

Did I do okay?

VH


----------



## tom67

Good job...
Now send him this...

https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf

and maybe this...

https://heartiste.wordpress.com/


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Yes, much better.


----------



## Evinrude58

VH,

My ex did the texting, sexting, sending videos thing with men she knew were married. She'd have 4 or 5 of them going all at once. 
If he thinks the videos and pics were bad, I'll bet the sexting would have burned his synapses. 

He will never get over this, because 
1). He shouldn't/-- it's just a precursor to what she'll do in the future when she meets her "soulmate" and starts telling herself how badly she shorted herself marrying your son. She'll destroy him. Now he's hurting. If he thinks this is bad, he doesn't want it to happen with his kids mom--- much worse. 
2). Unless he gets hit in the head and gets amnesia, this stuff will be burned in his mind forever and he will think about it the whole time he is with her, particularly when she is on her phone or out w friends. This stuff traumatizes a man.

Regardless of what you say, I doubt he will be able to make himself marry her. But support him in detaching like you're doing. 

He is lucky to have a real mom.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Excellent! Way to go! He really needed to hear that!


----------



## G.J.

You did great 

keep strong


----------



## VeryHurt

The Latest ~

Last night her Dad got them together to "hash it out."
I don't know what occurred........no specifics.

He called today and "quickly and briefly" told me, "they were on their way to NYC to see the Christmas Tree in Rockefeller Center, meeting friends for dinner and spending the night in the City.

I know nothing else.

Do I call her Dad?

Oh, he did mention that it "bothered her" that he never acknowledged the day of their first date aka their "anniversary."
:wtf:


----------



## just got it 55

VeryHurt said:


> The Latest ~
> 
> Last night her Dad got them together to "hash it out."
> I don't know what occurred........no specifics.
> 
> He called today and "quickly and briefly" told me, "they were on their way to NYC to see the Christmas Tree in Rockefeller Center, meeting friends for dinner and spending the night in the City.
> 
> I know nothing else.
> 
> Do I call her Dad?
> 
> Oh, he did mention that it "bothered her" that he never acknowledged the day of their first date aka their "anniversary."
> :wtf:


Tell her Dad he can pay for the wedding

55


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Well, you'll have to let him learn the hard way. Sometimes, pain is the best teacher. Tell him to make sure he is 100% positive she is the one, before putting kids into this terrible situation.


----------



## Marc878

Tell him look son if you think seeing nude pictures she sent the other guy is a shock how much of a shock will it be if you walk in on her and see someone else with her realtime?

That's what he's setting himself up for.


----------



## tom67

just got it 55 said:


> Tell her Dad he can pay for the wedding
> 
> 55


:slap::slap::slap::noel:


----------



## G.J.

I haven't read anywhere that he has been tested FOR STD and I'm sure she hasn't

If this is the case HE MUST get tested A.S.A.P.

It can be done discreetly and he will not be embarrassed...better than having some thing that goes untreated

Tell him to re read all the email/text/pictures they sent to each other if he still fails to understand why he shouldn't marry her

She knew this POS for 5 weeks and was doing 'stuff' with him she didn't do with her fiancée ....

Ask your son what type of girl does that after a few weeks..

Ask your son is this the sort of girl that is worth spending your life with...

Ask your son is this the girl he chooses who will be instrumental bringing up his children and teaching them 
right from wrong....

Ask your son does he want to go through life always having to check on her for signs of adultery

She sleeps with a guy who has just had a baby...
Ask your son what sort of person does that...

Ask your son does he think she has decent morals enough for him to actually marry

You have obviously talked to your son ref your own marriage
Re emphasize its not the norm and he needs to see it as an example of what can happen and what WILL be the outcome if he 
continues with his sleep walking into marriage with this broken girl as the foundation of his start will be built on quicksand

She would still be with this POS if he had not dumped her.....why does he want this type of left overs and surely he realizes 
as soon as an exciting new toy comes along what does he think will happen

she will be better at coneacling it next time

She says she loves him...HOW does anyone who loves some one cheat and lie

Make a bullet point list and talk again when you can

You need to book a train trip to see him as soon as you can if at all possible so you can talk face to face

Be brave your doing well


----------



## tom67

I know I am really reaching...

Can your ex swallow his effing pride for 15 minutes and explain how much he is like his gf.
I know I'm reaching high but this is his son not you.

Sigh...
Nothing to lose.


----------



## tom67

And if ex becomes an @ss tell him he can pay for the f^cking wedding an you are not enabling that is the best you can do for a 30 yr old imo.


----------



## Kobold

VeryHurt said:


> Before he left, she wanted to get engaged but he had some hesitation about her maturity level and her lack of financial responsibility.
> 
> She has a history of spending her paychecks on shopping sprees.
> 
> *She's irresponsible with money.*
> 
> April rolls along and she "did not get the transfer" and "she is angry because she did not get an engagement ring before he left."
> 
> *She's demanding and possibly materialistic/shallow.*
> 
> Apparently this guy is 35 years old, has been engaged for 4 years and had a baby in February.
> 
> They met at a restaurant/bar where he has a reputation of hitting on women and drinking a lot.
> 
> She really liked him and their 5 weeks were quite sexual.
> 
> He ended up dumping her and she was hurt and upset.
> 
> *She only came back to your son cause the OM was finished with her.*
> 
> The rest is typical TAM stuff: trickle truth.
> 
> *She's a proven liar.*
> 
> He wonders what would have happened if the guy didn't dump her.
> 
> *He already knows the answer to this, it's just too painful/humiliating to admit it to himself.*
> 
> He is mad that she "did stuff with him that she would not do with him.'
> 
> *He will spend the entirety of his relationship with her "competing" with the ghost of her OM.*
> 
> He gets "possessive" and he can't get "the visions of them together out of his mind."
> 
> *Those will never completely go away for as long as he's with her.
> *
> He is not sure of her "timeline" and did she really cheat?
> 
> *She has him doubting himself now, convincing him that what she did wasn't that bad, if that doesn't stick she'll just manipulate him into accepting responsibility for her behavior.*
> 
> He keeps asking himself and me if he was "Plan B" or if she "just settled on him."
> 
> *Once again, he knows the answer to this.*
> 
> He called me this morning to tell me she said, "You are never going to get over this and I don't want to deal with it anymore."
> 
> *She can't even be bothered with giving a token effort in helping him with the pain she's caused him. Plus she knows he's insecure and desperate to keep her so she's certain that he'll accept just about anything she throws his way.*
> 
> My son said to me, 'I really don't think she cares about me or my feelings."
> 
> *Bingo.*
> 
> What would you advise him if he was your son?
> 
> *Since your his mom this may sound a little harsh to you...
> Personally I don't have a son so I can't say for sure on that, but if he were my brother, I would first tell him that no matter what he does I'll always love him and I'll always be there for him and then I would tell him that if he marries this girl not only will he be signing up for a life of misery and regret but I'd also let him know that the fact that he would be willing to accept this as his lot in life would cause me to lose respect for him.
> *
> PS: Oh, she told him a few times that "they were on a break" and what happened was none of his business."
> *
> If he marries her he'll need to get use to hearing the phrase "It's none of your business." cause he'll be hearing it quite a bit.*


My responses in bold. I'm sorry your going through all of this craziness btw, I hope your son wises up to her games.


----------



## HurtDude

Marc878 said:


> Tell him look son if you think seeing nude pictures she sent the other guy is a shock how much of a shock will it be if you walk in on her and see someone else with her realtime?
> 
> That's what he's setting himself up for.


Sadly this is the truth, She sounds like my ex 2.0....... 

Sorry VH This is happening to your son. 

He needs to dump her so fast it makes her head swivel.


----------



## Satya

VH,

Sorry I've been busy so I've missed a bit, but I have a really strong feeling that after your son has dumped her, had more therapy and time to heal, he will THANK you for helping him avoid making such a terrible mistake. 

Neither of them are ready for marriage, emotionally or otherwise. 

There is NO VALOR in him beating himself over the head doing what is expected of him. Even as his mom, you do not live his life. Only HE will live the results of his decisions and you will not (and should not) always be there to help him. He is developing his own sense of reason, by dealing with half truths and suspicions. Never forget this is a very important lesson, if painful for him to learn. 

Absolutely yes, you know what happened when the stb bride & gals went for a drink. What do many women do when they want consoling or advice? Don't fault the event, just be honest with your son. His fiance is in RELUCTANT damage mode, she seems very entitled to think he should just accept her regardless of what he found out.

Immature women need validation. Mature women do not. Mature women know EXACTLY how their conduct comes across to others and with this knowledge in mind, they act confidently in their actions and behavior. If she was a mature woman that had done these things, she wouldn't need a pity party. She'd look in his eyes and tell him the truth of what she did, then leave it in his hands to give her his answer. Even better, she'd let him go because she'd be mature enough to know that she's not ready to settle down with him... Because she's not ready to settle, period. 

There's nothing wrong with that, it just means your son has got to let her go.The faster the better for his healing.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Be careful, there is a ton of good advice in this thread. If he decides she is the one, you can fracture your own relationship with your son. It may be why he gave you a quick talk when he was already on his way. Not trying to scare you, but TAM is littered with threads, where multiple people tell spouses to get away from meddling and intrusive family members. We have VETS who talk about how they had to excise moms and dads out of their marriage. 

Pick and choose your battles and do not resort to constantly berating him.


----------



## Satya

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Be careful, there is a ton of good advice in this thread. If he decides she is the one, you can fracture your own relationship with your son.


This is a good point, and why I mentioned that you will not always be able to help him (and should in many cases step back so he can make his own decisions).

Being supportive is of the utmost importance, even if you don't agree with his decisions, past, present, or future.


----------



## sapientia

syhoybenden said:


> Could you please explain to me why in God's name they are still living together??
> 
> He should run like his ass is on fire.





Thor said:


> I would tell him to stop the wedding.





happy as a clam said:


> "Hey, B*tch. You cheated on me and I'm done with you. Give me my ring back, this engagement is over. And while you're at it, get your sorry a$$ out of my apartment and back to where you came from. Good riddance!"


Yes, yes and yes.

You are his mother. Of COURSE you should tell him not to marry her. 

Are you really prepared to let him make a mistake of this magnitude about his life?

Geeze, I'd feel like a bad mom if I DIDN'T tell him what I think.

Of course, my son values my opinion very highly. Doesn't yours?


----------



## sapientia

VeryHurt said:


> He said, "I don't know if I can get over seeing her Texts where she sent him naked pictures of herself and she sent a video of her playing with herself."


How about:

"Ewwww. Wow, I don't think I could deal with that either. Not classy at all. Imagine any children you ever had finding that video?"

Not. Marriage. Material.

I'm surprised his buddies aren't telling him to dump her flat out. Doesn't he have friends?


----------



## syhoybenden

sapientia said:


> I'm surprised his buddies aren't telling him to dump her flat out. Doesn't he have friends?



Hmmm. Maybe some of them got something to hide?


----------



## tom67

syhoybenden said:


> Hmmm. Maybe some of them got something to hide?


:iagree:

Or have some of them been with her???

I wish I was joking.


----------



## alte Dame

I'm sorry, VH, that this is happening.

As parents, we spend so much time watching our children make mistakes that we think they could avoid. My parents warned me about so many things; I warn my two children. As my own mother would have said, 'Twas ever thus.'

I don't think there is much you can do to stop him from heading down this path. You can advise him when he asks. You can refuse to enable. You can't force him to see things the way you do, however. He is a grown man with his own life and he wants to live it himself.

As parents, we so often have to stand back with our hearts in our throats. I'm not sure this ever changes...

Give him your best advice and tell him that you trust him to make the right decision for himself. Suggest that, at the very least, he postpone the wedding indefinitely, at least until he feels he has sorted out his thoughts. 

Like everyone here, I hope he starts soon to see her for who she really is.


----------



## GusPolinski

@VeryHurt, any updates?


----------



## VeryHurt

GusPolinski said:


> @VeryHurt, any updates?


Hi Gus ~

He has been going weekly to therapy to discuss his relationship with his fiancee, his parent's divorce, his move from CA back to NJ, his new job etc....and I can see a calmer person.

He asked me to mail the "Save-the-Date" cards.

I guess "time will tell" 

VH


----------



## GusPolinski

VeryHurt said:


> Hi Gus ~
> 
> He has been going weekly to therapy to discuss his relationship with his fiancee, his parent's divorce, his move from CA back to NJ, his new job etc....and I can see a calmer person.
> 
> He asked me to mail the "Save-the-Date" cards.
> 
> I guess "time will tell"
> 
> VH


Oh dear Lord.

That poor, poor boy.

He's going to have to find out the "even harder" way.


----------



## VeryHurt

GusPolinski said:


> Oh dear Lord.
> 
> That poor, poor boy.
> 
> He's going to have to find out the "even harder" way.


Sadly, I agree with you. 

My heart is not in these wedding plans whatsoever as I have so much doubt and it should not be this way. 

I should be filled with joy and enthusiasm and that is not the case ! :crying: :frown2:


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

This is what happens, no offense to women, when daddy is a jerk. Your son didn't have a male figure to talk to so, her father gave him a pep talk. Who knows, maybe she'll turn the corner it has happened. Still, that's why there is the saying "young, dumb and full of cum." She gave him a HUGE clue of who she is and he ignored it. Oh well, it took me two times, but at least I didn't get married.


----------



## VeryHurt

phillybeffandswiss said:


> This is what happens, no offense to women, when daddy is a jerk. Your son didn't have a male figure to talk to so, her father gave him a pep talk. Who knows, maybe she'll turn the corner it has happened. Still, that's why there is the saying "young, dumb and full of cum." She gave him a HUGE clue of who she is and he ignored it. Oh well, it took me two times, but at least I didn't get married.


PB&S ~
I agree, his Dad is a loser. A lousy role model. Over the years there were MANY times when I cried because my son did NOT deserve a father like my STBX. I feel bad for him. He does reach out to my brothers occasionally but his Dad is the one who needed to be there for him.
Divorce sucks for EVERYONE!
VH


----------



## GusPolinski

Maybe get your brothers to reach out to him.

And wow... his GF's dad talked him into not dumping her? And he actually bought it...?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## syhoybenden

VeryHurt said:


> Hi Gus ~
> 
> He has been going weekly to therapy to discuss his relationship with his fiancee, his parent's divorce, his move from CA back to NJ, his new job etc....and I can see a calmer person.
> 
> He asked me to mail the "Save-the-Date" cards.
> 
> I guess "time will tell"
> 
> VH



Speak up! Please support your son.

Let him know that you cannot in good conscience help him in any way with preparations for the greatest mistake of his life.

Let him know that there will be no way on God's green earth that you are going to be mailing out his "save the Date" cards.

You might even let him know that you have no intention of being in attendance at the wedding, nor give it your blessing.

Tell him he reminds you of Toonces, The Cat Who Could Drive A Car. He can find it on Youtube.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

^^^ Good lord no. Sorry, do not alienate your son. Now, you can talk to him and tell him to mail out the cards himself, but I'd be very careful. Honestly, it sounds like he is trying to show you and your husband he can work it out. Terrible logic, but that's how our minds work when we are young.


----------



## VeryHurt

phillybeffandswiss said:


> ^^^ Good lord no. Sorry, do not alienate your son. Now, you can talk to him and tell him to mail out the cards himself, but I'd be very careful. Honestly, it sounds like he is trying to show you and your husband he can work it out. Terrible logic, but that's how our minds work when we are young.


P B & S ~

The Save-the-Date cards have been mailed.

I cannot and will never walk away from my son. His father walked away from us, I could never do the same.

I think that would harm him more emotionally than having a lousy marriage.

If your Mom doesn't love you unconditionally, then who will? 

If your Mom doesn't have your back, then who will?

There are a gazillion people out there in this cruel world who are suffering (infants, toddlers, pre-teens, teens, young adults and adults) because their Moms deserted them or abused them (physically , mentally, emotionally) or ignored them.

My STBX is a walking example of an adult who is so fvcked up because of his Mom's negligence and dysfunction, that it makes me sick. 

I will be by my son's side until I die.


----------



## adriana

syhoybenden said:


> Speak up! Please support your son.
> 
> Let him know that you cannot in good conscience help him in any way with preparations for the greatest mistake of his life.
> 
> Let him know that there will be no way on God's green earth that you are going to be mailing out his "save the Date" cards.
> 
> You might even let him know that you have no intention of being in attendance at the wedding, nor give it your blessing.
> 
> Tell him he reminds you of Toonces, The Cat Who Could Drive A Car. He can find it on Youtube.



This is terrible advice.... simply terrible!


----------



## syhoybenden

Dear Very Hurt, I am so sorry for what lies ahead in your and your son's lives. Be strong.


----------



## just got it 55

VeryHurt said:


> P B & S ~
> 
> The Save-the-Date cards have been mailed.
> 
> I cannot and will never walk away from my son. His father walked away from us, I could never do the same.
> 
> I think that would harm him more emotionally than having a lousy marriage.
> 
> If your Mom doesn't love you unconditionally, then who will?
> 
> If your Mom doesn't have your back, then who will?
> 
> There are a gazillion people out there in this cruel world who are suffering (infants, toddlers, pre-teens, teens, young adults and adults) because their Moms deserted them or abused them (physically , mentally, emotionally) or ignored them.
> 
> My STBX is a walking example of an adult who is so fvcked up because of his Mom's negligence and dysfunction, that it makes me sick.
> 
> I will be by my son's side until I die.


JSG my mom and dad have been gone for years 

They are still by my side

Because they were great parents just like you

55


----------



## 5Creed

VH~What a great Mom you are. I have been in these kinds of situations myself where I don't fully agree with a choice my child has made. Like you it is a struggle if I don't agree with that choice to keep quiet but you are absolutely doing the right thing by standing by your son! He is an adult and has to make his own life. You are standing by his side and allowing him to be an adult. No matter what he is going to remember that you were there and will be there if he takes a fall or not. We as parents just want the best for our kids.


----------



## VeryHurt

Update:

It's been 6 weeks since I posted last and not much has changed. My son continues to see a Psychiatrist (that he has know since he was 8 years old when he diagnosed him with ADD) on a weekly basis and his fiancee has joined him for 4 sessions.

We had an Engagement Party in mid-January in which I was able to see another side of his fiancee. She did NOTHING to help get ready for the Party ahead of time except to buy the booze. The caterers set up, serve and cleaned up. 

She spent the entire day getting her hair highlighted, curled and styled. Then she had a manicure and pedicure. Then she went to the Mall to have her make-up applied including false eyelashes. 

I had no idea this was a fancy evening where she wanted all the bridesmaid to where dark dresses. Her Mom had a dark dress on but no one tells me. I felt like an idiot.

My son and I cleaned the house, moved furniture and did some last minute food shopping. Her Mom made some flower arrangements and put candles here and there.

Everyone is at the party and she prances in looking like a Bride. White dress with silver shoes. Get this, she hired a photographer. Wanted a champagne toast. 

They run out of champagne before the toast so she has a hissy fit so her brother and I run out to buy more champagne. The first liquor store does NOT have the brand she wants so we go to another, they did NOT have the brand so we go to a third. So, I pay for the booze and we return to the party. Her college-aged brother complains that she is a Bridezilla the entire time.

They party till 4:00 am and then she posts on Facebook a picture of her and my son that says, "Thank you for making me your wifey for lifey." I get barraged with phone calls and E-mails from family and friends who were annoyed that I did not tell them my son got married. (Of course, she looks like a bride all dolled-up in a white dress.)

The next morning, she sleeps until noon while I got up at 7:00 am to clean up the enormous mess in the house, especially the kitchen. I knew the rental people were returning to pick up the glasses and dishes by 9:00 am. 

Last week, I see my son's Psychiatrist in a food store and I ask, "How is M doing?" 
He says to me, "He's struggling." 
Then he said he is "cautiously optimistic." 
I asked, "Should I start looking for my "Mother of the Groom" gown?
He says, "Not for another month or so."

My birthday was last week and this girl does not even give me a card. Christmas I did not get a gift or a card.

I am losing "the Daughter I never had feeling." As A matter-of-fact, that feeling is gone.

My son takes me out for my birthday last week and she tags along. There is absolutely NO communication at the table between M & C. 
It was so damn uncomfortable. She is going on and on about the bridesmaids are gonna wear blush and yada, yada yada and my son is sitting there like he is catatonic.

I'm thinking, where is the love? The euphoria? The anything?

I finally get a chance this afternoon to speak to him ALONE and I ask, "I sense something is wrong. You don't seem happy. What is wrong?"

"Well Mom, everything is wrong. I don't think I can get over what she did to me. I know I can't forget about what she did. She tells Dr. G different stuff than she tells me. I feel like a fool. I feel duped. I should have waited to ask her to marry me. I should have not acted desperate. I should have put my foot down and got married in the Spring of 2017 instead of this Summer."

Then he goes on, "After someone cheats, you don't assume they love you anymore. You need them to make an extra effort to prove themselves. She gets defensive when I want to talk to her." She seems frustrated that I am not "over it."

Then Yours Truly aka VH chimes in:

" M, I am sad for you. You should be happy. I can't be happy for you because you are not happy. I noticed a few things about her. She is a Princess and you will always have to buy her things. She is a Bridezilla. She is selfish and just thinks about herself. None of these are going to get better. I am telling you M, NONE of this will get better after you get married. 

She is not meeting your emotional needs. You are waiting for that extra step from her to prove her loyalty and it is not coming. She does not think like you do. You are not emotionally compatible. 

She is immature. There is no reason why you cannot postpone the wedding."

M says to me, "Last night I had dinner with P (a Groomsman) and he told me that I don't look happy and I don't look like I am in love."
He's right, you are not happy.

The obvious is for my son at the very LEAST, postpone this wedding. He is afraid to lose her. She is stunningly beautiful. 

So, I say, "Looks will change. She will get old. Probably gain weight. Then what? She could have an accident. Are you just as shallow as your father, M? Please tell me you are a better man than him.
It's a person's HEART and SOUL that matters. Okay, she is pretty. Are you happy with this pretty person? I don't think so. Didn't this pretty person cheat on you?"

We end the conversation by M saying to me, "I'd bet if we broke up, I'd be crushed for 2-3 months and she would would just move on and pretend it doesn't bother her."

I plan to send him a note telling him that he has my support, my love and I will always be here for him.


----------



## MattMatt

She is skin pretty, but soul ugly.


----------



## VeryHurt

MattMatt said:


> She is skin pretty, but soul ugly.


I never heard that before. So, true.


----------



## MattMatt

VeryHurt said:


> I never heard that before. So, true.


I think I might have just invented it!


----------



## *Deidre*

Prayers that your son will not go through with this...

Please ask your son to read about narcissistic personality disorder. She has the hallmark traits of a narcissist...and the only way to deal with one, is to leave and go no contact. I'm worried for your son, to be honest. I hope he doesn't marry this woman, because I just think it will be a really hard life, from the sounds of it. ((hugs))


----------



## FeministInPink

VH, thanks for this update. It sounds like he may be coming to his senses, and realizing what a marriage to her will be like. I fear part of him doesn't believe that he deserves any better than what she is offering to him.

Part of him realizes what he needs to do. He just needs to find he strength.

Boy, is she going to be p!ssed if he postpones the wedding! Be ready for it, VH, because it's gonna be a rough ride. Be careful--she might blame you, and come after you.


----------



## honcho

He should cancel the wedding. Taking her bridzilla antics out of the picture he clearly hasn't gotten over her cheating and she is showing no true willingness to help him. 

Neither one are ready for a marriage right now.


----------



## G.J.

VH that must have took a lot to tell your son

You did the right thing


----------



## lucy999

Agreed. Wonderful job, VH! ya done good, mama.

I'm hopeful your son will realize he's about to make a gigantic mistake.


----------



## turnera

I'm glad you're telling him what you think.


----------



## Marc878

Don't beat around the bush here. My daughter was dating a controlling loser once.

They were going out to the movies one night so I just up and went with them. I rode in the front while she was in the back. He was a horrible driver. Of which I informed him there and back.

Afterwards we had the talk. She didn't speak to me for two weeks after but a light clicked on later and she dumped him. I believe in telling it like it is. Straight up.

This fiancé is a spoiled princess and she'll cheat or dump him in 6 months.

He's affraid of losing her????? He's never had her and never will.

He needs to take control of his own life and not end up her doormat.


----------



## Adelais

FeministInPink said:


> Part of him realizes what he needs to do. He just needs to find he strength.
> 
> Boy, is she going to be p!ssed if he postpones the wedding! Be ready for it, VH, because it's gonna be a rough ride. Be careful--she might blame you, and come after you.


I hope he has the courage to postpone the wedding.

If she goes crazy on him or on you, it might just the the nail in the coffin and both of you will be rid of her for good!


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

See, this is what I wanted to hear. You participated, made the effort and he doesnt resent you. Now, he has come closer to his decision more than if you forced him. Now is the time for the little more direct prodding. No, not excessive but this is a good time for subtle confirmation. 



> "I'd bet if we broke up, I'd be crushed for 2-3 months and she would would just move on and pretend it doesn't bother her."


IMFarAboveRubies: I don't know, I want you to be happy, but you have already witnessed what happens when adversity appears in your relationship. 

You aren't bad mouthing her or calling her names. You haven't insulted your son or shown you aren't there for him. You just pointed out a fact.


----------



## Catherine602

A beautiful woman seems irresistible to men. 

VH I don't think you need to worry so much about your son's relationship. I have a rather unique experience with beauty. My sister was physically almost perfect. She was not a narcissist though, she was a sensitive lovely person. I remember vividly the reaction that seemingly sensible men had when she was in their presence. It seemed that they would do anything to win her favor, a smile, a word or two and more. 

I've come to the conclusion that men are willing to give up certain needs to remain in a relationship with a beautiful woman. They make a deal of sorts, possession of a rare creature in exchange for personal happiness. It's not a bad exchange really. The man benefits by the reflected light thrown off by his dazzling beauty. By association, he gets to appear competent, skillful, successful, good looking by friends, neighbors and strangers. 

There are financial gains too. Having a beautiful wife makes him more attractive by association. His superiors and business associates are more apt to see him in a positive light and they are more likely to include him in social events with important contacts... with his wife of course. 

Try to make peace with having this DIL. Your son is not at much of a disadvantage and he knows the deal, if not consciously then unconsciously and he is ok with the exchange. You see, it's not her that he wants, it's her dowery.


----------



## aine

I know he is an adult and has to make his own decisions, but please do not let him ruin his life, run the Beatch out of town now!


----------



## GusPolinski

Ugh.

"Pretty" doesn't matter when it's not backed up by character and integrity, and it won't mean much to him once he realizes that marriage w/ her will mean sharing her w/ every Tom, D*ck, Harry, and hairy d*ck within a 10-mile radius.

@VeryHurt, I get that you're doing everything that you can to both support your son and respect his decisions, but please Please PLEASE do and say whatever you can in order to ensure that he doesn't actually marry this harpy.


----------



## GusPolinski

Catherine602 said:


> A beautiful woman seems irresistible to men.
> 
> VH I don't think you need to worry so much about your son's relationship. I have a rather unique experience with beauty. My sister was physically almost perfect. She was not a narcissist though, she was a sensitive lovely person. I remember vividly the reaction that seemingly sensible men had when she was in their presence. It seemed that they would do anything to win her favor, a smile, a word or two and more.
> 
> I've come to the conclusion that men are willing to give up certain needs to remain in a relationship with a beautiful woman. They make a deal of sorts, possession of a rare creature in exchange for personal happiness. It's not a bad exchange really. The man benefits by the reflected light thrown off by his dazzling beauty. By association, he gets to appear competent, skillful, successful, good looking by friends, neighbors and strangers.
> 
> There are financial gains too. Having a beautiful wife makes him more attractive by association. His superiors and business associates are more apt to see him in a positive light and they are more likely to include him in social events with important contacts... with his wife of course.
> 
> Try to make peace with having this DIL. Your son is not at much of a disadvantage and he knows the deal, if not consciously then unconsciously and he is ok with the exchange. You see, it's not her that he wants, it's her dowery.


Well that was... unexpected.


----------



## MattMatt

Catherine602 said:


> A beautiful woman seems irresistible to men.
> 
> VH I don't think you need to worry so much about your son's relationship. I have a rather unique experience with beauty. My sister was physically almost perfect. She was not a narcissist though, she was a sensitive lovely person. I remember vividly the reaction that seemingly sensible men had when she was in their presence. It seemed that they would do anything to win her favor, a smile, a word or two and more.
> 
> I've come to the conclusion that men are willing to give up certain needs to remain in a relationship with a beautiful woman. They make a deal of sorts, possession of a rare creature in exchange for personal happiness. It's not a bad exchange really. The man benefits by the reflected light thrown off by his dazzling beauty. By association, he gets to appear competent, skillful, successful, good looking by friends, neighbors and strangers.
> 
> There are financial gains too. Having a beautiful wife makes him more attractive by association. His superiors and business associates are more apt to see him in a positive light and they are more likely to include him in social events with important contacts... with his wife of course.
> 
> Try to make peace with having this DIL. Your son is not at much of a disadvantage and he knows the deal, if not consciously then unconsciously and he is ok with the exchange. You see, it's not her that he wants, it's her dowery.


But! If only she was as nice as your sister! Sadly she doesn't seem to be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marc878

Catherine602 said:


> A beautiful woman seems irresistible to men.
> 
> VH I don't think you need to worry so much about your son's relationship. I have a rather unique experience with beauty. My sister was physically almost perfect. She was not a narcissist though, she was a sensitive lovely person. I remember vividly the reaction that seemingly sensible men had when she was in their presence. It seemed that they would do anything to win her favor, a smile, a word or two and more.
> 
> I've come to the conclusion that men are willing to give up certain needs to remain in a relationship with a beautiful woman. They make a deal of sorts, possession of a rare creature in exchange for personal happiness. It's not a bad exchange really. The man benefits by the reflected light thrown off by his dazzling beauty. By association, he gets to appear competent, skillful, successful, good looking by friends, neighbors and strangers.
> 
> There are financial gains too. Having a beautiful wife makes him more attractive by association. His superiors and business associates are more apt to see him in a positive light and they are more likely to include him in social events with important contacts... with his wife of course.
> 
> Try to make peace with having this DIL. Your son is not at much of a disadvantage and he knows the deal, if not consciously then unconsciously and he is ok with the exchange. You see, it's not her that he wants, it's her dowery.


Until he finds her in bed with someone that is.

That sort of ugliness goes clean to the bone.


----------



## G.J.

Catherine602 said:


> A beautiful woman seems irresistible to men.
> 
> VH I don't think you need to worry so much about your son's relationship. I have a rather unique experience with beauty. My sister was physically almost perfect. She was not a narcissist though, she was a sensitive lovely person. I remember vividly the reaction that seemingly sensible men had when she was in their presence. It seemed that they would do anything to win her favor, a smile, a word or two and more.
> 
> I've come to the conclusion that men are willing to give up certain needs to remain in a relationship with a beautiful woman. They make a deal of sorts, possession of a rare creature in exchange for personal happiness. It's not a bad exchange really. The man benefits by the reflected light thrown off by his dazzling beauty. By association, he gets to appear competent, skillful, successful, good looking by friends, neighbors and strangers.
> 
> There are financial gains too. Having a beautiful wife makes him more attractive by association. His superiors and business associates are more apt to see him in a positive light and they are more likely to include him in social events with important contacts... with his wife of course.
> 
> Try to make peace with having this DIL. Your son is not at much of a disadvantage and he knows the deal, if not consciously then unconsciously and he is ok with the exchange. You see, it's not her that he wants, it's her dowery.


:surprise:


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## ConanHub

Yuk.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## VeryHurt

Catherine602 said:


> A beautiful woman seems irresistible to men.
> 
> VH I don't think you need to worry so much about your son's relationship. I have a rather unique experience with beauty. My sister was physically almost perfect. She was not a narcissist though, she was a sensitive lovely person. I remember vividly the reaction that seemingly sensible men had when she was in their presence. It seemed that they would do anything to win her favor, a smile, a word or two and more.
> 
> I've come to the conclusion that men are willing to give up certain needs to remain in a relationship with a beautiful woman. They make a deal of sorts, possession of a rare creature in exchange for personal happiness. It's not a bad exchange really. The man benefits by the reflected light thrown off by his dazzling beauty. By association, he gets to appear competent, skillful, successful, good looking by friends, neighbors and strangers.
> 
> There are financial gains too. Having a beautiful wife makes him more attractive by association. His superiors and business associates are more apt to see him in a positive light and they are more likely to include him in social events with important contacts... with his wife of course.
> 
> Try to make peace with having this DIL. Your son is not at much of a disadvantage and he knows the deal, if not consciously then unconsciously and he is ok with the exchange. You see, it's not her that he wants, it's her dowery.


Her dowry?


----------



## VeryHurt

Good Morning ~
I'd like to thank you for all your supportive posts and advice. As soon as I grab some coffee and feed these two monsters, I'll reply to everyone.
VH


----------



## ConanHub

Mail your son a full DNA/STD kit and tell him to stock up on them.

If he is bent on marrying a she goat, he will need an abundant supply.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Send him these:
The Wife List: 10 Qualities
Top 10: Signs She?ll Make A Good Wife | Dating For Today's Man
25 Things Girls Do That Make Guys Realize They?re Wife Material | Thought Catalog


----------



## VeryHurt

turnera said:


> Send him these:
> The Wife List: 10 Qualities
> Top 10: Signs She?ll Make A Good Wife | Dating For Today's Man
> 25 Things Girls Do That Make Guys Realize They?re Wife Material | Thought Catalog


Tunera ~

Thanks, I will send him the articles. 

VH


----------



## VeryHurt

My son called me this morning he was in a good mood: :wtf:

Do you know why?

Because his fiancee picked him up his favorite penne vodka for dinner last night for dinner.

Do you see what I mean? 

What little she has to do to "prove" she thinks about him.

Is this all she needs to do?

Am I missing something?

Am I the only one who feels this is pathetic?

VH

Oh, I forgot to mention: My son, his fiancee and her Mom are sleeping here tonight because she has breast reduction surgery tomorrow morning at a hospital close to my home.

OK, Gus, 55, Conan, Marc, John and everyone else ..............I'm waiting for my computer to explode from your impending posts !!!!!


----------



## Lostinthought61

VH,

As a parent we instinctively want to protect our children from potential harm, we have years of experience behind us and we can see the train wreck before it happens, and our first thought is to take them off the train before they even get into that wreck, but this is the dilemma we face, we were that person on the train, we went through all of those experiences , emotions and upheavals, and each time it made us wiser and more knowledgeable (well for most of us) and granted at the detriment of our heart and wallets, but we too would have said no to anyone who would have pulled us off that train. And why is that, stupidity ? (probably) but more likely we thought that we are different that what happens to someone else will not happen to us, that our live is so strong, so i tell you VH the only thing you can promise him is that you will be there should that happen. 

well you could also put a knife to her throat, and tell her that you will skew her should she harm your son, but that often times leads to jail time....so yeah i would pass...for now ;-) 
Of course if you ever find yourself in New Orleans there is a VooDoo shop that can help you.


----------



## FeministInPink

VeryHurt said:


> My son called me this morning he was in a good mood: :wtf:
> 
> Do you know why?
> 
> Because his fiancee picked him up his favorite penne vodka for dinner last night for dinner.
> 
> Do you see what I mean?
> 
> What little she has to do to "prove" she thinks about him.
> 
> Is this all she needs to do?
> 
> Am I missing something?
> 
> Am I the only one who feels this is pathetic?
> 
> VH
> 
> Oh, I forgot to mention: My son, his fiancee and her Mom are sleeping her tonight because she has breast reduction surgery tomorrow morning at a hospital close to my home.
> 
> OK, Gus, 55, Conan, Marc, John and everyone else ..............I'm waiting for my computer to explode from your impending posts !!!!!


Of course he is delighted by this little token... isn't that the trademark of a dysfunctional relationship like this? She treats him like sh!t, and he is looking for any little sign that shows she cares about him, so much so that he's missing the glaring, flashing "DANGER DANGER" signs everywhere, and she knows that she only has to do the bare minimum to keep him around--because he's never learned to expect/demand more from a partner. Her sweet little gesture gives him all the reason he needs to rugsweep all the bullsh!t.

You better start looking for that mother-of-the-groom dress :/


----------



## GusPolinski

VeryHurt said:


> My son called me this morning he was in a good mood: :wtf:
> 
> Do you know why?
> 
> Because his fiancee picked him up his favorite penne vodka for dinner last night for dinner.
> 
> Do you see what I mean?
> 
> What little she has to do to "prove" she thinks about him.
> 
> Is this all she needs to do?
> 
> Am I missing something?
> 
> Am I the only one who feels this is pathetic?
> 
> VH
> 
> Oh, I forgot to mention: My son, his fiancee and her Mom are sleeping her tonight because she has breast reduction surgery tomorrow morning at a hospital close to my home.
> 
> OK, Gus, 55, Conan, Marc, John and everyone else ..............I'm waiting for my computer to explode from your impending posts !!!!!


Lame and sad.

And who is footing the bill for the surgery?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

I know everyone isn't a barbarian but being a bit of an ass to extremely pathetic partners for our kids is allowed.

Just because my son, I have two, decides to date a classless slvt, my youngest did for a while, does not mean I ever endorse it.

You really don't have to smile and take it. Being cross with your son for a stupid choice is fine.

If one of my boys wants to marry a vulture, they can do it without my approval or participation.

Someone needs to tell your son he is being pathetic and give him a wake up slap!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602

Her dowery is her beauty and all that it brings to him in terms of secondary gain. 

I'm not surprised he is happy when she does little things for him. She has done so much for him already, she chose him over all the other men who want her. 

The dynamic of a relationship of a man with a beautiful woman is different. He wants to keep her, he does not expect much from her. I don't think that you will be able to influence him at this point. He is no longer a teen. He is old enough to know, on some level, want he is getting into and that is what he wants. You don't have to be quiet about it but be careful what you say so that you don't cut off lines of communication. Never say anything against her because he sees her as his primary relationship and may tell her.


----------



## just got it 55

turnera said:


> I'm glad you're telling him what you think.


VH you spoke with the a Mothers Heart Thats all you can do

The rest is up to him Hopefully he sees the light He already knows her true self I get the feeling he will come to find you are right and looking out for him 

What do his friends tell him Have you spoke to his friends ?

55


----------



## turnera

Catherine602 said:


> Her dowery is her beauty and all that it brings to him in terms of secondary gain.
> 
> I'm not surprised he is happy when she does little things for him. She has done so much for him already, she chose him over all the other men who want her.
> 
> The dynamic of a relationship of a man with a beautiful woman is different. He wants to keep her, he does not expect much from her. I don't think that you will be able to influence him at this point. He is no longer a teen. He is old enough to know, on some level, want he is getting into and that is what he wants. You don't have to be quiet about it but be careful what you say so that you don't cut off lines of communication. Never say anything against her because he sees her as his primary relationship and may tell her.


You might tell him this. This is a true story, a woman I used to work with. She was very beautiful, you could tell she spent a TON of time AND money on her looks. I never saw her come close to doing any real work at the job. Her job was to look pretty, basically. Anyway, we were talking about chores at home, and I said I helped mow the lawn and edge and sweep, and she replied that she helped, too. I said you do? (I was surprised) She said 'Sure. When he goes out to mow, I bring out my lawn chair and my tea, and I sit outside and read a magazine while he's working on the yard. That's how I help him. I give him encouragement when he looks over at me and I smile and cheer him on.' 

And she was dead serious.


----------



## FeministInPink

Catherine602 said:


> Her dowery is her beauty and all that it brings to him in terms of secondary gain.
> 
> I'm not surprised he is happy when she does little things for him. She has done so much for him already, *she chose him over all the other men who want her. *
> 
> The dynamic of a relationship of a man with a beautiful woman is different. He wants to keep her, he does not expect much from her. I don't think that you will be able to influence him at this point. He is no longer a teen. He is old enough to know, on some level, want he is getting into and that is what he wants. You don't have to be quiet about it but be careful what you say so that you don't cut off lines of communication. Never say anything against her because he sees her as his primary relationship and may tell her.


Well, she kinda didn't. She's a cheating skank, and will likely continue to do so in the future.


----------



## FeministInPink

turnera said:


> You might tell him this. This is a true story, a woman I used to work with. She was very beautiful, you could tell she spent a TON of time AND money on her looks. I never saw her come close to doing any real work at the job. Her job was to look pretty, basically. Anyway, we were talking about chores at home, and I said I helped mow the lawn and edge and sweep, and she replied that she helped, too. I said you do? (I was surprised) She said 'Sure. When he goes out to mow, I bring out my lawn chair and my tea, and I sit outside and read a magazine while he's working on the yard. That's how I help him. I give him encouragement when he looks over at me and I smile and cheer him on.'
> 
> And she was dead serious.


Omigod, I think I just threw up in my mouth a little...


----------



## ConanHub

Catherine602 said:


> Her dowery is her beauty and all that it brings to him in terms of secondary gain.
> 
> I'm not surprised he is happy when she does little things for him. She has done so much for him already, she chose him over all the other men who want her.
> 
> The dynamic of a relationship of a man with a beautiful woman is different. He wants to keep her, he does not expect much from her. I don't think that you will be able to influence him at this point. He is no longer a teen. He is old enough to know, on some level, want he is getting into and that is what he wants. You don't have to be quiet about it but be careful what you say so that you don't cut off lines of communication. Never say anything against her because he sees her as his primary relationship and may tell her.


I would say it to her face. ***** footing around terrible behavior encourages more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## VeryHurt

Catherine602 said:


> Her dowery is her beauty and all that it brings to him in terms of secondary gain.
> 
> I'm not surprised he is happy when she does little things for him. She has done so much for him already, she chose him over all the other men who want her.
> 
> The dynamic of a relationship of a man with a beautiful woman is different. He wants to keep her, he does not expect much from her. I don't think that you will be able to influence him at this point. He is no longer a teen. He is old enough to know, on some level, want he is getting into and that is what he wants. You don't have to be quiet about it but be careful what you say so that you don't cut off lines of communication. Never say anything against her because he sees her as his primary relationship and may tell her.


Ah, I see where you are coming from now and it DOES make sense.

I remember when he was out in San Fran and she was here and I told him to go out to see if he can meet other girls. The next day he said to me, "No one was prettier than C." She is always the prettiest girl at the party and she knows it. He is very proud of her beauty.

Sadly, he reminds me of his Dad aka Idiot Boy, who falls for someone younger and skinnier (but most definitely lacks character as Gus pointed out) and can't let her go because she does wonders for his fragile ego.

Could it be a MLC for my son ???


----------



## Adelais

phillybeffandswiss said:


> IMFarAboveRubies: I don't know, I want you to be happy, but you have already witnessed what happens when adversity appears in your relationship.


This isn't about me, and I'm not making it about me.

Someone else suggested the fiance might lash out at VH if her son postpones the wedding.

If the fiance lashes out over the postponement, VH's son will get to see yet another side of his lovely fiance that just might help him make a final decision to let her go. It sounds like fiance is already a thorn in VH's side, as well as causing her son pain over the nude photos.


----------



## Adelais

phillybeffandswiss said:


> IMFarAboveRubies: I don't know, I want you to be happy, but you have already witnessed what happens when adversity appears in your relationship.


I truly feel hurt that you take the opportunity to attack me on someone else's thread.

Please PM me and tell me what you are insinuating, so as not to threadjack VH's thread.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> I truly feel hurt that you take the opportunity to attack me on someone else's thread.


 I used the wrong name. I have NEVER attacked you anywhere on this website nor in someone's thread..



> Please PM me and tell me what you are insinuating, so as not to threadjack VH's thread.


 I was reading your thread and mixed up the names. My comment was extremely clear except the name mix up.


----------



## Adelais

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I used the wrong name. I have NEVER attacked you anywhere on this website nor in someone's thread..
> 
> 
> I was reading your thread and mixed up the names. My comment was extremely clear except the name mix up.


It looked like you were attacking me on this thread. The comment wasn't clear to me, hence my request for a PM to clarify what you were referring to.

OK. I'm glad. I'll take a deep breath now and get over it.:smile2:


----------



## VeryHurt

FeministInPink said:


> Of course he is delighted by this little token... isn't that the trademark of a dysfunctional relationship like this? She treats him like sh!t, and he is looking for any little sign that shows she cares about him, so much so that he's missing the glaring, flashing "DANGER DANGER" signs everywhere, and she knows that she only has to do the bare minimum to keep him around--because he's never learned to expect/demand more from a partner. Her sweet little gesture gives him all the reason he needs to rugsweep all the bullsh!t.
> 
> You better start looking for that mother-of-the-groom dress :/


Pinky ~
Sadly I see he may have inherited the Doormat gene from moi !!!
VH


----------



## VeryHurt

just got it 55 said:


> VH you spoke with the a Mothers Heart Thats all you can do
> 
> The rest is up to him Hopefully he sees the light He already knows her true self I get the feeling he will come to find you are right and looking out for him
> 
> What do his friends tell him Have you spoke to his friends ?
> 
> 55


55 ~

My son told me a few days ago one of his groomsmen said to him, "You never look happy anymore." 

The only people he confides is are me and his Psychiatrist.

I will keep an eye on him. 

I may not have been the best wife in the world but I am a damn good Mommy !!! 

VH


----------



## FeministInPink

VeryHurt said:


> Ah, I see where you are coming from now and it DOES make sense.
> 
> I remember when he was out in San Fran and she was here and I told him to go out to see if he can meet other girls. The next day he said to me, "No one was prettier than C." She is always the prettiest girl at the party and she knows it. He is very proud of her beauty.
> 
> Sadly, he reminds me of his Dad aka Idiot Boy, who falls for someone younger and skinnier (but most definitely lacks character as Gus pointed out) and can't let her go because she does wonders for his fragile ego.
> 
> Could it be a MLC for my son ???


I understand the biology of it all, but it's really disheartening to see so many men prioritize beauty over character. The women lacking character will make a man miserable every time, but it's like they're too dumb to know it.


----------



## just got it 55

FeministInPink said:


> I understand the biology of it all, but it's really disheartening to see so many men prioritize beauty over character. The women lacking character will make a man miserable every time, but it's like they're too dumb to know it.


Little head thinking for the big head:slap:

We've (Men) have all been guilty of that at some point

55


----------



## turnera

VeryHurt said:


> Sadly, he reminds me of his Dad aka Idiot Boy, who falls for someone younger and skinnier (but most definitely lacks character as Gus pointed out) and can't let her go because she does wonders for his fragile ego.
> 
> Could it be a MLC for my son ???


VH, I don't mean to bring up painful past, but at one time you moved on, left TAM, because you were mad at me for suggesting that your son's issues were a result of you and your H's relationship.

But honestly, how else was he supposed to turn out? Boys turn into their fathers. In some way, they all do. It's who they learn from. The only difference is that your son combined his dad's narcissism and huge ego with your willingness to take on people's horrible behavior and assume you caused it. So he's in a bad spot. If he WERE an assh*le like his dad, he could use this girl and throw her away, and move on and maybe find a more suitable match. But he's stymied by the low self worth he got from watching you accept horrid behavior, which he thinks is all people can do (he's got a mental block when it comes to his dad, natch). So he's stuck.

I think the only thing you can do at this point is keep finding ways to feed his ego, help him see his own self worth, and get him asking himself WHY he should accept such horrid behavior.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

My god, how did he become so shallow? Prettiest girl in the room? What happens when she's 70? Trade her on a newer model like dad? And what woman accepts a man who marries her for looks even after she cheats on him. 

I don't think he's mature enough to marry anyone. He just doesn't want to feel the pain of her moving on with someone else. The really sad thing is he'll probably find a great girl and judge her against this woman's looks.


----------



## ConanHub

Her special photos could be included in a photo montage of the brides life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

WorkingOnMe said:


> My god, how did he become so shallow? Prettiest girl in the room? What happens when she's 70? Trade her on a newer model like dad? And what woman accepts a man who marries her for looks even after she cheats on him.
> 
> I don't think he's mature enough to marry anyone. He just doesn't want to feel the pain of her moving on with someone else. The really sad thing is he'll probably find a great girl and judge her against this woman's looks.


He's not shallow. He's a nice man. But he has low self esteem, low self worth, so he sees a beautiful woman as a way to get 'the world' to think HE is valuable. It's a cry for help.


----------



## Thor

Catherine602 said:


> Her dowery is her beauty and all that it brings to him in terms of secondary gain.
> 
> I'm not surprised he is happy when she does little things for him. She has done so much for him already, she chose him over all the other men who want her.
> 
> The dynamic of a relationship of a man with a beautiful woman is different. He wants to keep her, he does not expect much from her. I don't think that you will be able to influence him at this point. He is no longer a teen. He is old enough to know, on some level, want he is getting into and that is what he wants. You don't have to be quiet about it but be careful what you say so that you don't cut off lines of communication. Never say anything against her because he sees her as his primary relationship and may tell her.


I don't think this is true unless the man has extraordinary power, wealth, or fame. For the rest of us, people will learn toot sweet she is a beotch and want nothing to do with either of them. In fact they may think less of him for being with a woman of low morals or bad temperament.


----------



## Catherine602

FeministInPink said:


> Well, she kinda didn't. She's a cheating skank, and will likely continue to do so in the future.


She cheated but in the end, chose to stay with him. He could have lost her but instead he won her from the OM. It's a victory for him.

It may not be palatable but I'm not making this stuff up. She is the prize, she is that valuable that the cheating or petulance or narcissism is a small price to pay. She cannot be faulted for lacking character or being a bad person. 



ConanHub said:


> I would say it to her face. ***** footing around terrible behavior encourages more.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


CH I remember that you said that you attract a great deal of attention because of your looks. You work at being in peak shape but there is some genetic component to your physique that no amount of exercise can give. 

You were born the way you are, you didn't have to work at it. The fact that you are a well developed human being is probably due to your experiences, the force of your will and determination. 

This woman has had it easy, two parents who spoiled her. She was made not born. She came by their looks by chance and she was born into a culture that reveres looks over almost anything. She is tempted by other men, who pursue her relentlessly, far more than an average looking woman. She is subjected to hostility and jealously more than average looking women. How could she possibly learn anything else?


----------



## Thor

turnera said:


> VH, I don't mean to bring up painful past, but at one time you moved on, left TAM, because you were mad at me for suggesting that your son's issues were a result of you and your H's relationship.
> 
> But honestly, how else was he supposed to turn out? Boys turn into their fathers. In some way, they all do. It's who they learn from. The only difference is that your son combined his dad's narcissism and huge ego with your willingness to take on people's horrible behavior and assume you caused it. So he's in a bad spot. If he WERE an assh*le like his dad, he could use this girl and throw her away, and move on and maybe find a more suitable match. But he's stymied by the low self worth he got from watching you accept horrid behavior, which he thinks is all people can do (he's got a mental block when it comes to his dad, natch). So he's stuck.
> 
> I think the only thing you can do at this point is keep finding ways to feed his ego, help him see his own self worth, and get him asking himself WHY he should accept such horrid behavior.


As a recovering Nice Guy myself, I want to quickly chime in here. I think my family growing up was similar in some ways, especially in terms of my mom. My dad wasn't a jerk but he didn't know how to have a healthy marriage relationship with my mom.

Anyhow, VH, my guess is your son associates more with you than his dad. He observed his father's behaviors and decided he didn't want to be like that. So he naturally decided to be like you. And that is the problem with how Nice Guys are created. A boy needs a whole group of healthy masculine role models. In today's society we don't get that. Maybe one teacher in school, or a coach. Maybe an uncle if not our father. And society in general feminizes and pacifies boys as they grow up.

Boys need to be raised to be tough and stand up for themselves. When they skin a knee they need men to tell them they're fine and to walk it off (and they need mom to give them a hug). They need male role models to tell them when they're being too passive or accepting of the unacceptable.

Moms are great and are necessary for a boy, but their naturally soft, nurturing style should not be emulated as the primary style for a man.

In addition, he did associate self sacrifice with being a good person. But too much so.

I think perhaps a more direct approach from VH might be good. Show him your strength and explain your commitment to not being abused in the future. Emphasize you don't need someone else to be whole. I might even go to the extreme of telling him to start standing up for himself like a real man. Tell him to imagine what John Wayne would do in his position. Or pick someone with a similar persona your son would relate to. John Wayne would ditch the bytch and be glad he did. And he'd have no trouble being happy, and he'd eventually find a high quality woman.


----------



## Catherine602

VH I am not excusing the fiancé for having a vestigial character. I can understand it though. She really has no incentive to grow. It may help you to understand too. Since it appears she will be in your sons life and by extension yours, try to understand why she is the way she is and why your son may be reluctant to give her up. 

Understanding helps. You'll know what to expect and it will not be a shock to your system.


----------



## Catherine602

Thor said:


> I don't think this is true unless the man has extraordinary power, wealth, or fame. For the rest of us, people will learn toot sweet she is a beotch and want nothing to do with either of them. In fact they may think less of him for being with a woman of low morals or bad temperament.


Beauty has the same effect on the wealthy and the poor. It's just is. Wealthy men can afford to buy it but there are not enough rich men for every beautiful woman. 

A lot of mythology is commentary on human nature. The Siren myth is the Greek take on the irresistible allure of beauty. There are many more and in every culture.


----------



## ConanHub

Catherine602 said:


> She cheated but in the end, chose to stay with him. He could have lost her but instead he won her from the OM. It's a victory for him.
> 
> It may not be palatable but I'm not making this stuff up. She is the prize, she is that valuable that the cheating or petulance or narcissism is a small price to pay. She cannot be faulted for lacking character or being a bad person.
> 
> 
> 
> CH I remember that you said that you attract a great deal of attention because of your looks. You work at being in peak shape but there is some genetic component to your physique that no amount of exercise can give.
> 
> You were born the way you are, you didn't have to work at it. The fact that you have a well developed personality is probably due to your experiences.
> 
> This woman has had it easy, two parents who spoiled her. She was made not born. She came by their looks by chance and she was born into a culture that reveres looks over almost anything. She is tempted by other men, who pursue her relentlessly, far more than an average looking woman. She is subjected to hostility and jealously more than average looking women. How could she possibly learn anything else?


I definitely agree with you about her personality. It just doesn't pay to jump on her stupid bandwagon.

The son is behaving like a fool but she can be crystal with her future DIL.

I would be crystal with my son as well. I have observed that even if someone rejects you for standing on the truth, they will soon run from you or come to you repentant much faster when the truth catches up with them.

I agree with you. If it were my son however, there would be no mistaking my disdain for her.

If she at any point became remorseful, well... that is a different story.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Catherine602

But you would risk losing your sons ear if you react too strongly. With dependent children, a parent has more leverage but when they are on their own, it is more difficult. A parent can easily push an adult child away and lose the opportunity to influence them.


----------



## Catherine602

GusPolinski said:


> Well that was... unexpected.


What do you mean?


----------



## ConanHub

Catherine602 said:


> But you would risk losing your sons ear if you react too strongly. With dependent children, a parent has more leverage but when they are on their own, it is more difficult. A parent can easily push an adult child away and lose the opportunity to influence them.


I doubt I would ever lose one of my sons forever but I am not afraid of pushing them away.

They are both adults now and very close to me and their mother but they have both gone through things for which I did not stand and did indeed push them away because they refused to heed wisdom.

They both experienced their foolishness without my approval or silence and learned far faster for it.

When you wake up alone in a mess of your own making, you tend to figure out you're to blame quickly.

I will never stop loving my boys but will never endorse extreme foolishness or weakness from them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Catherine602 said:


> A parent can easily push an *adult child* away and lose the opportunity to influence them.


Yep and I am a better man for it.


----------



## VeryHurt

turnera said:


> VH, I don't mean to bring up painful past, but at one time you moved on, left TAM, because you were mad at me for suggesting that your son's issues were a result of you and your H's relationship.
> 
> But honestly, how else was he supposed to turn out? Boys turn into their fathers. In some way, they all do. It's who they learn from. The only difference is that your son combined his dad's narcissism and huge ego with your willingness to take on people's horrible behavior and assume you caused it. So he's in a bad spot. If he WERE an assh*le like his dad, he could use this girl and throw her away, and move on and maybe find a more suitable match. But he's stymied by the low self worth he got from watching you accept horrid behavior, which he thinks is all people can do (he's got a mental block when it comes to his dad, natch). So he's stuck.
> 
> I think the only thing you can do at this point is keep finding ways to feed his ego, help him see his own self worth, and get him asking himself WHY he should accept such horrid behavior.


Tunera ~

He does have low self-esteem and I just don't understand why. 

He is smart, has a great personality, works out, good looking w/ a nice face, polite, great manners, dresses well, has tons of male and female friends .......the only negative is that he is a cigarette smoker which can turn people off. 

Many of my friends would like to introduce their daughters to him. 

However, he did see his dad sulk and behave like a baby. He did see his dad's temper. He did see his dad put me down and make fun of me. He did see his dad dismiss me. 

I suppose that would give HIM low self-esteem as well as me, right?

I have cried many times over the years that he "deserved a normal, loving, regular dad like my brothers or male cousins or my friend's husbands," and not this lunatic that cannot compliment or show love or give love.

He is so close to my brothers, especially my younger brother in Texas. Every so often, he will tell me that he got a text from my son.

The fvcking idiot boy has no idea how he destroyed me, our son, our marriage and our family.

On a happy note, I am going to see the Beach Boys tonight !!!

Surfin' USA, California Girls .............La La La ..........


----------



## VeryHurt

FeministInPink said:


> I understand the biology of it all, but it's really disheartening to see so many men prioritize beauty over character. The women lacking character will make a man miserable every time, but it's like they're too dumb to know it.


Pinker ~

I've noticed during my years on TAM that men say they want a woman who is loyal, honest, classy and has character AND that MAY be true BUT she also has to be slender and beautiful.

I've also noticed many men will say they are looking for the sweet, cooking, baking, warm, fuzzy, Motherly, Nursey type BUT then they will complain about being smothered.

I suppose it has been this way since Cavemen days and will be this way until the end of time. It really does confuse the hell out of me.
VH


----------



## VeryHurt

WorkingOnMe said:


> My god, how did he become so shallow? Prettiest girl in the room? What happens when she's 70? Trade her on a newer model like dad? And what woman accepts a man who marries her for looks even after she cheats on him.
> 
> I don't think he's mature enough to marry anyone. He just doesn't want to feel the pain of her moving on with someone else. The really sad thing is he'll probably find a great girl and judge her against this woman's looks.


WOM ~

Trade her in for a newer model like dad? I hope not !!!! 

I would not wish that pain or rejection on my worse enemy!

I can say with no uncertainty that it HURTS LIKE HELL to be a loyal, loving wife for 33 years and then you're dumped for a younger more slender person.

Without question, this feeling of being rejected and replaced will stay with me for the rest of me life.


----------



## FeministInPink

VeryHurt said:


> Pinker ~
> 
> I've noticed during my years on TAM that men say they want a woman who is loyal, honest, classy and has character AND that MAY be true BUT she also has to be slender and beautiful.
> 
> I've also noticed many men will say they are looking for the sweet, cooking, baking, warm, fuzzy, Motherly, Nursey type BUT then they will complain about being smothered.
> 
> I suppose it has been this way since Cavemen days and will be this way until the end of time. It really does confuse the hell out of me.
> VH


Biology sucks.

I'm all the above, plus I'm funny, intelligent, accomplished, well-educated, and engaging--I'm just not slender. It's the only reason I can figure I'm not getting dates


----------



## G.J.

VeryHurt said:


> Pinker ~
> 
> I've noticed during my years on TAM that men say they want a woman who is loyal, honest, classy and has character AND that MAY be true BUT she also has to be slender and beautiful.
> 
> I've also noticed many men will say they are looking for the sweet, cooking, baking, warm, fuzzy, Motherly, Nursey type BUT then they will complain about being smothered.
> 
> I suppose it has been this way since Cavemen days and will be this way until the end of time. It really does confuse the hell out of me.
> VH


VH I'm afraid we never grow up fully

We see our wifes at the beginning as all we want to have and to hold

We see them later as good mothers and partners

We see them at there best and worst

We forget...... simply as.........


----------



## person123

VeryHurt said:


> Update:
> 
> My son and I cleaned the house, moved furniture and did some last minute food shopping...
> 
> so her brother and I run out to buy more champagne. The first liquor store does NOT have the brand she wants so we go to another, they did NOT have the brand so we go to a third. So, I pay for the booze and we return to the party.
> 
> The next morning, she sleeps until noon while I got up at 7:00 am to clean up the enormous mess in the house, especially the kitchen. I knew the rental people were returning to pick up the glasses and dishes by 9:00 am.


Look, your son is a doormat, but so are you. Why did you do all this? You're setting a terrible example. 

Here are some ideas:

1) Tell you son to read the redpill on reddit, he sounds like a techie.
2) Set him up with some good looking girls.
3) Stop the counseling sessions. It sounds like they're doing no good.


----------



## turnera

Yeah, I was thinking that, too. You and yours are the workhorses there to serve the 'deserving' ones - HER family. But you ALLOWED it to happen. I know what it's like, I've done the exact same thing too many times to count. But I learned to stop.

You want him to become a stronger man? Show him how to be strong. Show him how to respect himself by you respecting you first.


----------



## VeryHurt

Update:

Well, it has been about month and essentially my son is still angry over "what she did" and is punching walls.

This is awful and he is in need of Anger Management. 

They have been seeing the Psychiatrist together except for yesterday when he went alone because they had "another blowup."

The shrink explained to him," You are obsessed over the situation and she is minimizing your hurt."

My son and I spoke for a few hours last night. He knows that he is stubborn and needy. He wants to "get over" her seeing another guy and "be happy" with her because "he loves her" BUT he cannot "forget what she did" and "he is still unsure of the timeline" and "I am crying over the recent fight and she is probably sleeping like a baby."

This is so dysfunctional on so many levels and I am hearing only his side of the story and you are only hearing my side of the story.

*He claims she says:*

You've got to get over this. 
It was just a blip in my whole life and you are making way too much out of this.
I did not see him until after I told you we needed a break.
I am not sorry for what I did but I am sorry I hurt you.
I cannot take your temper anymore and I am afraid of you.
She truly loves him and wants to marry him but she can't deal with this every single day.
My parents are worried about me because once a week you are throwing me out of the house and I go home crying. They don't like your anger.


*He tells me:*

She is supportive of me up to a point.
I know I am insecure and needy and I don't know why I am like this and why I cannot just let this go.
She just really crushed me.
I feel lousy about myself.
Two things bother me the most, what she did with him that she would not do with me and how I feel like an idiot because all her friends knew what happened and they knew she was with him.
Maybe we should take a month off because I am stressed at work right now (CPA) but I'll be lonely and she'll just go on with her life. 
I don't know what she would do for the next month.

Thanks for listening. 

I know what you are going to say because I feel the same way: 

This marriage is doomed 
It's never going to get better
They are emotionally two different people.
He is too needy, she is cold and self-centered.
He does not trust her

Thanks again ...........VH


----------



## WasDecimated

VeryHurt said:


> Pinker ~I've noticed during my years on TAM that men say they want a woman who is loyal, honest, classy and has character AND that MAY be true BUT she also has to be slender and beautiful.
> VH





FeministInPink said:


> Biology sucks.
> 
> I'm all the above, plus I'm funny, intelligent, accomplished, well-educated, and engaging--I'm just not slender. It's the only reason I can figure I'm not getting dates



Most of the guys I know aren't especially attracted to slender Women. I know I'm not. Curves are much more interesting and usually get my attention. >


----------



## GusPolinski

This has taken a disturbing turn.

He needs to put an end to this relationship before a prison sentence does.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

VH, there's nothing wrong with your son identifying and admitting that this is his line in the sand. He can love her (I don't think this is real love), and still know this is not something he will get over. Time to move on. As you and I both know, it will happen again the next time she wants to, and she will blame him for it-again.


----------



## GusPolinski

Decimated said:


> Curves are much more interesting and usually get my attention. >


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## VeryHurt

Pluts & Gus ~

Yes, this situation is sad and disturbing and dysfunctional. 
His anger frightens me as well.
He told me he knows that he should not punch a wall but after he does, he feels better. I personally cannot identify with anger and being out of control. 

He may have inherited this lovely behavior (temper) from his father, his father's brother, his father's sister and his father's father. 

I am tempted to have him log onto TAM and read this thread .....what do you think?

VH


----------



## G.J.

If he's aware you have posted private details of him then yes it may bring home its not just your opinion on this terrible place he finds him self in

Positive thoughts for you VeryHurt


----------



## Maxo

VeryHurt said:


> Pinker ~
> 
> I've noticed during my years on TAM that men say they want a woman who is loyal, honest, classy and has character AND that MAY be true BUT she also has to be slender and beautiful.
> 
> I've also noticed many men will say they are looking for the sweet, cooking, baking, warm, fuzzy, Motherly, Nursey type BUT then they will complain about being smothered.
> 
> I suppose it has been this way since Cavemen days and will be this way until the end of time. It really does confuse the hell out of me.
> VH



As Paul Proteus points out on youtube, women say they wan t kind , caring, nice guy. But, you never see them going down to the Salvation Army looking for such a guy. I think both sexes display a form of Hypergamy.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

VeryHurt said:


> Update:
> 
> Well, it has been about month and essentially my son is still angry over "what she did" and is punching walls
> 
> My son and I spoke for a few hours last night. He knows that he is stubborn and needy. He wants to "get over" her seeing another guy and "be happy" with her because "he loves her" BUT he cannot "forget what she did" and "he is still unsure of the timeline" and "I am crying over the recent fight and she is probably sleeping like a baby."
> 
> This is so dysfunctional on so many levels and I am hearing only his side of the story and you are only hearing my side of the story.
> 
> *He claims she says:*
> 
> You've got to get over this.
> It was just a blip in my whole life and you are making way too much out of this.
> I did not see him until after I told you we needed a break.
> I am not sorry for what I did but I am sorry I hurt you.
> I cannot take your temper anymore and I am afraid of you.
> She truly loves him and wants to marry him but she can't deal with this every single day.
> My parents are worried about me because once a week you are throwing me out of the house and I go home crying. They don't like your anger.
> 
> 
> *He tells me:*
> 
> She is supportive of me up to a point.
> I know I am insecure and needy and I don't know why I am like this and why I cannot just let this go.
> She just really crushed me.
> I feel lousy about myself.
> Two things bother me the most, what she did with him that she would not do with me and how I feel like an idiot because all her friends knew what happened and they knew she was with him.
> 
> First get a punching bag not walls. I went through hell and punched the shower tile wall and only hurt my hand. I got a nice everlast hanging bag and put it in my garage. It is a wonderful tool to let aggression out.
> 
> As for her he needs to let her go. From reading this thread he need to get as far away as you can. If this was my son I would say run don't walk!


----------



## Hantei

Hi Very Hurt, 

I don't know your story, the reason I'm posting here is that I'm a father of a boy (much younger than yours I admit) but also the times when I was your son's age feel not to be too distant in the past.

When (or if) my son finds himself in the similar situation that is what I'm going to tell him:

At you age (30) a man needs to work hard to lay the strong and resilient foundation for his life and the life of his family and his children. At this stage a women in your life need (apart from being good looking, etc etc) to be your partner, your backbone, your spine.

That spine you've got has fractured on a minor road bump. It wasn't strong in a 1st place. Fortunately you are young enough for the transplant (I know spines are not really transplantable of course). 

So now you have a choice - go through the pain of surgery and get a new stronger spine or for the long time deal with metal pins, painkillers and staying away from any physical activity. And then when it fractures again you are likely to be too old for the transplant.

I know a few people with permanently damaged bones that would pay dearly for a new bone. So do their families. I also feel that in my case I'd be better off if my spine had fractured 10 years ago.


----------



## VeryHurt

I have a dear friend from sophomore year of high school who called my son this afternoon to talk. My son and my friend respect each other and obviously my friend has known him since the second he was born.

He told her, "She will not apologize for what she did. She said they were not together and she did cheat. But she is sorry she hurt him."

I wanna vomit. 
Am I the only one who finds that cold and callous? 
Am I overreacting?

"They weren't engaged. He moved to San Francisco. She never dated anyone but him. Blah, blah, blah ..........

Am I missing something here? As you know, I am going through my own divorce after 33 years and I am beginning to doubt myself sanity these days.

This is getting to be overwhelming for me.

VH


----------



## honcho

Has he talked with his father about this? I know and understand why you don't discuss it with IB but I find it hard to believe he supports this marriage either.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I think she's lying through her teeth


----------



## VeryHurt

My friend who spoke with my son filled me in on the rest of their conversation. It seems you guys were right about him needing to speak to a man. 

He poured his guts out to my friend. He feels he has "no one to talk to." When she said that I am here for him, he said that I have enough problems.

And then he went on to say, "My father is a fvck and he is fvcking useless." He was screaming how his Dad is USELESS and an IDIOT.

He told her, "I wish I had a dad that I could sit down and have a beer with and talk about things but he is a fvcking useless idiot."

I had NO IDEA he was this angry towards the idiot. 

Over the years, my son has witnessed his dad put me down, insult me, criticize me, ignore me, belittle me ..........he once told a therapist, "I should not have to tell my dad to be nice to my mom."

The idiot has lied to my son about the OW many times. Telling him that he ended it with her when he did not. 

The idiot is extremely emotionally and socially immature and he embarrasses our son when they go out. I know it's hard to see your parents divorce. My parents split after 37 years of marriage and it bothered the crap out of me and my siblings.

I sent an E-mail to my brothers to ask them to reach out to him. 

What else should I do?

Work is beyond stressful.
His engagement is on the rocks.
His parent's are divorcing after 33 years.

VH


----------



## Hantei

Tell him that he had a right to be angry. Tell him that he's done the right thing when he stood up to protect you and yes he should (not should not). That this is a part of being a man and as a women (assuming you agree of course) you see his relationship with his cheating and entitled GF as not very "manly" . I'm projecting but if my mother would've told me that 10 years ago I'd be scratching the back of my head.

Am I out of line here?





VeryHurt said:


> My friend who spoke with my son filled me in on the rest of their conversation. It seems you guys were right about him needing to speak to a man.
> 
> He poured his guts out to my friend. He feels he has "no one to talk to." When she said that I am here for him, he said that I have enough problems.
> 
> And then he went on to say, "My father is a fvck and he is fvcking useless." He was screaming how his Dad is USELESS and an IDIOT.
> 
> He told her, "I wish I had a dad that I could sit down and have a beer with and talk about things but he is a fvcking useless idiot."
> 
> I had NO IDEA he was this angry towards the idiot.
> 
> Over the years, my son has witnessed his dad put me down, insult me, criticize me, ignore me, belittle me ..........he once told a therapist, "I should not have to tell my dad to be nice to my mom."
> 
> The idiot has lied to my son about the OW many times. Telling him that he ended it with her when he did not.
> 
> The idiot is extremely emotionally and socially immature and he embarrasses our son when they go out. I know it's hard to see your parents divorce. My parents split after 37 years of marriage and it bothered the crap out of me and my siblings.
> 
> I sent an E-mail to my brothers to ask them to reach out to him.
> 
> What else should I do?
> 
> Work is beyond stressful.
> His engagement is on the rocks.
> His parent's are divorcing after 33 years.
> 
> VH


----------



## Blossom Leigh

It is excellent he vented his anger about his Dad to another man. That was an important moment. Encouraging your brothers to reach out was smart. He's going to be ok VH. Trust.


----------



## TeddieG

VeryHurt said:


> Update:
> 
> 
> I plan to send him a note telling him that he has my support, my love and I will always be here for him.


VH, I don't know where I've been or how I missed this thread, but I just found it last night, and read through page 12 before I went to bed. I probably should read all the way through before I post, but I wanted at this point to say that while I hear others giving you great advice and telling you how important it is to convey to your son that he shouldn't marry this woman, I was struck by something. 

Some were saying not to push too hard and drive a wedge between yourself and your son if he IS hell bent on marrying her (and I need to read the rest of the thread to see how things are going). But what I see right here in this piece I've quoted is what I would have recommended. Rather than tell him WHAT to do or tell him what NOT to do, I think he is looking for your approval if he DOES bail on the wedding. What I think he needs at this age is not your permission to make a decision, not for you to tell him what to do, but your BLESSING to make the decision himself (although I see him struggling to find a way to exit) and to follow his process. It is very telling that one of his good friends pointed out that he should be happy and he's not. He is listening to his peers, hopefully. 

You guys were in a kind of tug-of-war about the "save the date" cards; they were symbolic. He wanted you to send them, you didn't want to send them. Your son is in a vortex of who to choose to please. 

And this party with this woman? People waiting on her hand and foot while she does her hair and makeup and nails and blah blah blah . . . this is how MANY young women live, fed by the social media and internet frenzy. My niece is a photographer and make-up artist who with her fiance runs a wedding venue and has a collaboration with a bridal gown designer. All you ever see are these made-up girls in their dresses, and it is all a fantasy. 

My niece's mother always thought that no matter what the problems before the marriage, somehow walking down the aisle and saying the words and going through the motions made a marriage a marriage. It's what we sell in this country. 

Just know that I'm pulling for you and hope your son finds a way out (if he hasn't already, and I hope to read he has). And I'm sorry he quit his job.

ETA: Now that I'm all the way through the thread, I DO think it is important he have a man to talk to, but any man, however close, is NOT going to be his dad, who he needs. That said, it was your h's choice to go AWOL. So I'm wondering if not only is the anger towards his dad coming out, but his anger that he feels yet another person (fiancee) has demonstrated a pattern of leaving him, not only geographically but emotionally. It explains why he quit the job and came back to NJ, and it explains why he is struggling to grasp what she did and why she won't come clean. The way I see it, he hasn't yet wrapped his head around the fact that what his father did has nothing to do with him, nor does what his fiancee did have anything to do with him; it has to do with their own character. 

And I think it is possible your son is misinterpreting your attempts to save the marriage. You keep talking about low self esteem and being a doormat, but you had a greater commitment to the marriage than your h did. That would be precisely the situation if your son marries this woman - he will have a greater commitment to it than she will. She is committed to GETTING married; he would be the kind to be more committed to BEING married. 

You have a lot on your plate and a lot going on and are in my thoughts. Good luck and best wishes to you.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

If she really loved him, she'd be equally heartbroken and wouldn't have turned to another man so easily and quickly. Sounds like she really just wants the white picket fence and he was a nice enough that she could envision that with him. That isn't love, though.

I'm glad he's seeing a counselor. If they are both having difficulty getting over the fling, it's likely going to come back up during arguments, etc. It's best he cut all ties and be single for a bit. There are lots of things to do in SF to fill his days. And keeping with IC would be good for a while.


----------



## Thor

VeryHurt said:


> *He claims she says:*
> 
> You've got to get over this.
> It was just a blip in my whole life and you are making way too much out of this.
> .
> .


Yup this is the modern metro-sexual don't judge anybody message he has been receiving from media and society. And it is totally BS!

*There is no reason he has to get over this!* He has every right to _*judge her*_ as having done something unacceptable.

Perhaps part of his anguish is he thinks he is supposed to get over this and not judge her, but in his heart and gut he knows what she did was very very wrong. He may think he is wrong to have his own standards, whatever those standards are.




VeryHurt said:


> *He tells me:*
> 
> She is supportive of me up to a point.
> I know I am insecure and needy and I don't know why I am like this and why I cannot just let this go.
> She just really crushed me.
> I feel lousy about myself.


Again I think he spells it out there. He doesn't believe he has the right to his own identity, his own standards, and to come to judgments about others. Without her he doesn't feel he has an identity. His identity is wrapped up in being with her. So rather than dump her for pooping on his life, he feels he has to keep her and that he's in the wrong for not liking what she did.

It isn't enough that others judge her as having done wrong. He can't accept that it is ok for him to make that judgment.


----------



## Thor

VH, this is not dumping on you so please don't take it that way.

Your son most likely identified with you as he was growing up. He saw his dad being a top grade jerk and he hated his dad for it. He swore he'd never be like his dad. And he bonded to you. He looked up to you. Unfortunately he also learned from watching your behavior. We say it here all the time that kids will duplicate their parents' relationships, so it is better to get out of a bad marriage rather than stay in one for the kids. So your son admired you but unfortunately learned subconsciously that good people put up with bad behavior. Your son may also have a case of thinking in terms of scarcity. If he loses this woman, he may never find another decent woman.

I bet you could look back and see where you learned to put up with bad behavior. There was some lesson from your childhood that led to you not leaving your husband.

Your son needs to have the realization that his thought process is defective. It is not ok for someone to treat another poorly. It is ok to stick up for oneself when that does happen. He should not be modeling this aspect of how you were in your marriage.

I understand that you did the best you could, and it was done for the right reasons. So I'm not trying to make you feel badly. I've made enough mistakes that it wouldn't be my place to tell others to feel badly!

One of the bits of advice which I think fits here is that one should think of _who_ they want to be, not _what_ they want to be. Find a role model and emulate them. Iow, don't think "I want to be married and live in the suburbs with a good job", think "I want to be like Uncle Joe who has a good marriage, lives in a nice area, and has a happy life". If your son can find such a role model he can then emulate the behavior of that person. I bet that person would not stick with an unrepentant uncaring woman!


----------



## VeryHurt

Is there a way that I can E-mail this thread to my son?


----------



## TeddieG

@VeryHurt, just copy and paste the link into an email: 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/304009-will-you-please-help-me-my-son-19.html

The title of the thread shows up, but when you click on it, it goes to the URL. This particular link goes to page 19 (currently the last page).


----------



## VeryHurt

TeddieG said:


> @VeryHurt, just copy and paste the link into an email:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/304009-will-you-please-help-me-my-son-19.html
> 
> The title of the thread shows up, but when you click on it, it goes to the URL. This particular link goes to page 19 (currently the last page).


Ted ~
How do you copy and paste?
VH


----------



## TeddieG

Use your cursor and put it to the left of the url, and then highlight the whole thing. On a Mac press simultaneously "command" and the "c" key. Then in an open email, in the body, put your cursor in, and then press simultaneously "command" and the "v" key. There are other ways to copy and paste, including on a PC. 

Or you can open your email, and in another window have this page open, and type the page address (url) manually. It would start out like this: talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelilty/304009-will- ..... you see what I mean? 

You're basically providing him with the string of text at the top, in the tab, that is the "address" of the thread. And then all he has to do is click on it and it will open.


----------



## turnera

Thor said:


> He doesn't believe he has the right to his own identity, his own standards, and to come to judgments about others. Without her he doesn't feel he has an identity. His identity is wrapped up in being with her. So rather than dump her for pooping on his life, he feels he has to keep her and that he's in the wrong for not liking what she did.
> 
> It isn't enough that others judge her as having done wrong. He can't accept that it is ok for him to make that judgment.


And he is this way because of his upbringing. Seeing one parent denigrate the other, and the weaker one just letting it happen. It's the only relationship he's ever seen modeled. And because he has an overbearing, mean father, he - as a male - was unable to 'learn' how to be a strong man himself. Men need respect and admiration and high expectations from their dads, and he didn't get that; he got a narcissistic User instead. So he grew up thinking he was flawed, unlovable, and not worthy to stand up to anyone.

My DD25 had a pretty dysfunctional dad growing up. If I hadn't stepped in and walked her through it, explained him to her so that she could still love him AND love herself, she would have turned out just like your son. But I was able to show her that he loved her, he was just too broken to love her the right way. I showed her the psychological aspects of who he was and why he did what he did. She needed to hear that from an adult so she could stop internalizing the pain and blaming herself (the way your son always has).

Maybe it's not too late for you to share with your son what you've learned about your stbx. Tell him about IB's narcissism and greed and User tendencies, help him see that that is IB, but your son doesn't have to be anything like him in order to be a strong healthy man. Maybe offer to go to family counseling with him so you two can talk about the kind of childhood he had growing up, and let the counselor give him some tips on how to find his own strength and to stop blaming himself, and see that he deserves better than what his gf is giving him. Going to therapy with my DD is the best thing I could have ever done, because the counselor was able to help her see the fallacies in her thinking and strive for better. I hope you'll consider it. If nothing else, ask him to go with YOU, as a favor to you, and then just see what happens.

In fact, maybe you asking him for support is exactly what he needs to feel proud of himself, to feel like he is of value...you keep saying you have to shield him and not involve him, but honestly, that sounds to me like you're treating him like a 12 year old - and maybe that's why he's acting as insecure as a 12 year old - not even you trust him to be able to handle things.


----------



## Thor

turnera said:


> And he is this way because of his upbringing. Seeing one parent denigrate the other, and the weaker one just letting it happen. It's the only relationship he's ever seen modeled. And because he has an overbearing, mean father, he - as a male - was unable to 'learn' how to be a strong man himself. Men need respect and admiration and high expectations from their dads, and he didn't get that; he got a narcissistic User instead. So he grew up thinking he was flawed, unlovable, and not worthy to stand up to anyone.
> .
> .
> .
> Maybe offer to go to family counseling with him so you two can talk about the kind of childhood he had growing up, and let the counselor give him some tips on how to find his own strength and to stop blaming himself, and see that he deserves better than what his gf is giving him. Going to therapy with my DD is the best thing I could have ever done, because the counselor was able to help her see the fallacies in her thinking and strive for better. I hope you'll consider it. If nothing else, ask him to go with YOU, as a favor to you, and then just see what happens.


My upbringing wasn't quite that, but not very different either. I learned to subjugate my needs because of it. I learned whatever was wrong was my fault. If someone else was unhappy it was because of me, and it was my duty to fix it.

Anyhow, my counselor at one point told me my thinking was defective. That was a bit of a shock to hear. But it was the beginning of me being able to see _why_ my thinking and behavior were not moving me in the right direction.

I agree, some therapy for VH's son and her would likely be very helpful.


----------



## FeministInPink

Thor said:


> My upbringing wasn't quite that, but not very different either. I learned to subjugate my needs because of it. I learned whatever was wrong was my fault. If someone else was unhappy it was because of me, and it was my duty to fix it.
> 
> Anyhow, my counselor at one point told me my thinking was defective. That was a bit of a shock to hear. But it was the beginning of me being able to see _why_ my thinking and behavior were not moving me in the right direction.
> 
> I agree, some therapy for VH's son and her would likely be very helpful.


Me, too. My upbringing was like this. It took the traumatic experience of my marriage ending to shake me out of it, and I'm still working on it. It's a long process.

VH, your son doesn't know that his thinking is flawed, because he's never learned anything else.


----------



## 86857

Thor said:


> VH, this is not dumping on you so please don't take it that way.
> 
> Your son most likely identified with you as he was growing up. He saw his dad being a top grade jerk and he hated his dad for it. He swore he'd never be like his dad. And he bonded to you. He looked up to you. Unfortunately he also learned from watching your behavior. We say it here all the time that kids will duplicate their parents' relationships, so it is better to get out of a bad marriage rather than stay in one for the kids. So your son admired you but unfortunately learned subconsciously that good people put up with bad behavior. Your son may also have a case of thinking in terms of scarcity. If he loses this woman, he may never find another decent woman.
> 
> ETC


Sorry my post is a bible @VeryHurt but I have personal experience with this and my son. I really feel for you both. 

You've hit the nail on the head @Thor.

My son#1 watched his Dad treat me like crap - I stayed ONLY for the kids. He's now 28 & has been doing same as yours. One bad relationship for 2 years. I talked to him for hours & my son#2 (similar age) had a few talks with him. Seemed to be more effective when son#2 talked to him - the man-to-man as posters said. He eventually broke up with her. After 'pulling off the bandaid' he got over it quite quickly in fact.

BUT. . . always a 'but', he soon met another girl, 2 years in now. She's not as bad as gf#1 but basically same deal & it started subtly at first 6 months in. Son#2 & I have been talking with him again but nothing like the extent we were the first time. 

Yesterday, he told me he's going to break up with her. Woohoo! I'm mighty pleased & proud of him. What you said Thor is exactly what I've been saying to him. Subconsciously, he thinks it's OK to be treated badly by a partner from watching me being treated badly by his Dad in his childhood. The experts say the same.

What has happened to my son shows how DIFFICULT it is to break the habit - like any other habit. It's an addiction in fact. 

I'm trying to get my son to do therapy. Your son needs it too whether he breaks up with her or not. It's hard to shift. 

There's a great guy on YouTube, Ross Rosenberg, who calls it 'Self-Love Deficit Disorder' instead of codependency. I think it's a much better description. He deals with people who have narcissist partners and can't break away. It boils down to the same thing as both our sons have going on because I think partners who treat their partners badly are all excessively narcissistic, or even full-blown ones. 
Associated with it is what Ross terms 'pathological loneliness'. People with 'Self-Love Deficit Disorder' suffer from pathological loneliness when they break up which is why they find it so hard to do so and even go back again for more. 

Here's a link to one of Ross' YouTube videos. He has lots of videos on there. He was in 3 such relationships himself so he knows what it's like. And he's a guy. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRubkqHHoRA

And yes, all the experts say it stems from childhood, especially with kids who are more sensitive. Thankfully, my 2nd son was resilient enough not to pick it up. My daughter? I'm not so sure about her as yet.

I feel for you VeryHurt. It is so hard to watch our children in pain. Try to get your son to watch some of Ross' videos. It will give him great insight. 

PS I'm about to meet a friend for coffee. He's trying to break away from his partner who treats him badly. He broke it up a few weeks ago but then got back with her. He broke up with her again yesterday but needs to talk with me as he's struggling with his decision. And he's 43 years old!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Thor said:


> Yup this is the modern metro-sexual don't judge anybody message he has been receiving from media and society. And it is totally BS!
> 
> *There is no reason he has to get over this!* He has every right to _*judge her*_ as having done something unacceptable.
> 
> Perhaps part of his anguish is he thinks he is supposed to get over this and not judge her, but in his heart and gut he knows what she did was very very wrong. He may think he is wrong to have his own standards, whatever those standards are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again I think he spells it out there. He doesn't believe he has the right to his own identity, his own standards, and to come to judgments about others. Without her he doesn't feel he has an identity. His identity is wrapped up in being with her. So rather than dump her for pooping on his life, he feels he has to keep her and that he's in the wrong for not liking what she did.
> 
> It isn't enough that others judge her as having done wrong. He can't accept that it is ok for him to make that judgment.


Could NOT agree MORE Thor... that is the root of this.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

********** said:


> Sorry my post is a bible @VeryHurt but I have personal experience with this and my son. I really feel for you both.
> 
> You've hit the nail on the head @Thor.
> 
> My son#1 watched his Dad treat me like crap - I stayed ONLY for the kids. He's now 28 & has been doing same as yours. One bad relationship for 2 years. I talked to him for hours & my son#2 (similar age) had a few talks with him. Seemed to be more effective when son#2 talked to him - the man-to-man as posters said. He eventually broke up with her. After 'pulling off the bandaid' he got over it quite quickly in fact.
> 
> BUT. . . always a 'but', he soon met another girl, 2 years in now. She's not as bad as gf#1 but basically same deal & it started subtly at first 6 months in. Son#2 & I have been talking with him again but nothing like the extent we were the first time.
> 
> Yesterday, he told me he's going to break up with her. Woohoo! I'm mighty pleased & proud of him. What you said Thor is exactly what I've been saying to him. Subconsciously, he thinks it's OK to be treated badly by a partner from watching me being treated badly by his Dad in his childhood. The experts say the same.
> 
> What has happened to my son shows how DIFFICULT it is to break the habit - like any other habit. It's an addiction in fact.
> 
> I'm trying to get my son to do therapy. Your son needs it too whether he breaks up with her or not. It's hard to shift.
> 
> There's a great guy on YouTube, Ross Rosenberg, who calls it 'Self-Love Deficit Disorder' instead of codependency. I think it's a much better description. He deals with people who have narcissist partners and can't break away. It boils down to the same thing as both our sons have going on because I think partners who treat their partners badly are all excessively narcissistic, or even full-blown ones.
> Associated with it is what Ross terms 'pathological loneliness'. People with 'Self-Love Deficit Disorder' suffer from pathological loneliness when they break up which is why they find it so hard to do so and even go back again for more.
> 
> Here's a link to one of Ross' YouTube videos. He has lots of videos on there. He was in 3 such relationships himself so he knows what it's like. And he's a guy.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRubkqHHoRA
> 
> And yes, all the experts say it stems from childhood, especially with kids who are more sensitive. Thankfully, my 2nd son was resilient enough not to pick it up. My daughter? I'm not so sure about her as yet.
> 
> I feel for you VeryHurt. It is so hard to watch our children in pain. Try to get your son to watch some of Ross' videos. It will give him great insight.
> 
> PS I'm about to meet a friend for coffee. He's trying to break away from his partner who treats him badly. He broke it up a few weeks ago but then got back with her. He broke up with her again yesterday but needs to talk with me as he's struggling with his decision. And he's 43 years old!


GREAT post **********... Thank you so much for sharing this. This resonates very much that there is a gap in the codependency material. I think this may very well close that gap. One I have already closed, but just didn't have the language to express fully. Checking out this guy. Thanks!

ETA: Aha... he is just saying the same thing, but in less clinical terms. The relationship addiction is there because of Stockholm Syndrome. The narcissist taps the wounded child inside and it becomes a drug to the relationship addict. What I like about his work is he zero's in on the pathological loneliness and coaches people how to get over that hump to allow self love work enough time and room to take hold and stay on the other side of that hump, choosing healthier relationships in the future. Good stuff.


----------



## VeryHurt

Updates:

I know it has been way too long since I have updated. So, let's see:
My son is still going to see his Psychiatrist twice a month w/ his fiancee. He is still obsessing over her "on a break" tryst and the Doc wants to put him on Lexapro. 

This is what I observe. 

He is more romantic than she is.

He is emotionally needy and she cannot meet these needs.

He is still angry.

He has trust issues.

He hates her Mom. (That's a whole other thread!)

He feels that she lies about the price of things. i.e: These shoes were on sale. And needs to put her on a budget.

They are saving for a home but she had to drop 10K on a breast reduction because her gown will fit better.

Issues
In-Laws
Finances
Emotional Incompatibility
Trust Issues

I am asking, what are the other main "issues" that I need to address?

Her Mother is a B!TCH.

VH


----------



## 225985

Ok, I only read the first post and the thread may be much changed since then, but seems like SON did not value this GF enough to stay with her. He moved away. Then he expected GF to uproot and move to him 3000 miles cross country to see if things MIGHT work out.

ETA: He valued the job more than his relationship with GF. She valued a guy that valued her more than his job. 

Hope all worked out for SON and for GF.

Praying for you too VH.


----------



## FeministInPink

VeryHurt said:


> Updates:
> 
> I know it has been way too long since I have updated. So, let's see:
> My son is still going to see his Psychiatrist twice a month w/ his fiancee. He is still obsessing over her "on a break" tryst and the Doc wants to put him on Lexapro.
> 
> This is what I observe.
> 
> He is more romantic than she is.
> 
> He is emotionally needy and she cannot met these needs.
> 
> He is still angry.
> 
> He has trust issues.
> 
> He hates her Mom. (That's a whole other thread!)
> 
> He feels that she lies about the price of things. i.e: These shoes were on sale. And needs to put her on a budget.
> 
> They are saving for a home but she had to drop 10K on a breast reduction because her gown will fit better.
> 
> Issues
> In-Laws
> Finances
> Emotional Incompatibility
> Trust Issues
> 
> I am asking, what are the other main "issues" that I need to address?
> 
> Her Mother is a B!TCH.
> 
> VH


She spent $10k on a breast reduction because her dress didn't fit?!?

CRAZY. Just buy a new freaking dress in the correct size.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## VeryHurt

blueinbr said:


> Ok, I only read the first post and the thread may be much changed since then, but seems like SON did not value this GF enough to stay with her. He moved away. Then he expected GF to uproot and move to him 3000 miles cross country to see if things MIGHT work out.
> 
> ETA: He valued the job more than his relationship with GF. She valued a guy that valued her more than his job.
> 
> Hope all worked out for SON and for GF.
> 
> Praying for you too VH.


Blu ~
She WAS going out to CA to be with him but met this other guy and then said that "she didn't have an engagement ring."
VH


----------



## threelittlestars

Read the first and second page and skipped the middle. 

First, since its still i guess not accepted that SHE (fiance) cheated, but what about the OM? was the OBS informed that there was a highly sexual affair between her husband and your future daughter in law? I do hope that was brought to light... Because if she did not cheat on your son, she was party to and aiding the cheating of another. 

As to breast reduction. I wish i could have that done! I have 38 triple k size... I can't go to victoria secret or ANY other easy store to buy a bra.... It suxs. I need a reduction and i have no money and my insurance calls it vanity! UGH try shopping for a size that is half way through the alphabet! ugh, her level of vanity disgusts me... Buy a new fracking dress! ugh! 

Please please i and so praying to the forces that guide us to not let this woman be the mother of your grandchildren. She is SO not right!


----------



## 225985

FeministInPink said:


> She spent $10k on a breast reduction because her dress didn't fit?!?


In hindsight, my wife and I wish she had a breast reduction when younger. All the medical issues now make that too late. 

If they were really big that would be a heavy weight on her chest and back, especially as she got older. Better to do that first. Good for her. Now a breast enlargement for a dress is a different story, IMO. 



VeryHurt said:


> I know it has been way too long since I have updated. So, let's see:
> My son is still going to see his Psychiatrist twice a month w/ his fiancee. He is still obsessing over her "on a break" tryst and the Doc wants to put him on Lexapro.
> 
> This is what I observe.
> 
> He is more romantic than she is.
> 
> He is emotionally needy and she cannot met these needs.
> 
> He is still angry.
> 
> He has trust issues.
> 
> He hates her Mom. (That's a whole other thread!)
> 
> He feels that she lies about the price of things. i.e: These shoes were on sale. And needs to put her on a budget.
> 
> They are saving for a home but she had to drop 10K on a breast reduction because her gown will fit better.
> 
> Issues
> In-Laws
> Finances
> Emotional Incompatibility
> Trust Issues
> 
> I am asking, what are the other main "issues" that I need to address?
> 
> Her Mother is a B!TCH.


VH, why is he marrying her? They are just not a match. Nothing wrong with him or her. He is emotionally just like I was/am. She is different and always will be. They will clash as long as they are married. (Note I did not say all their lives). 

Listen, if you know my story, you know I cheated on W before marriage. A drunked half-ONS, but no excuse. W still married me. She remembers that incident. Never will forget. 

Now once they marry, he won't be able to mention it again because if he brings it up, she will say (maybe rightfully so) "Then why did you still marry me."

I never played that card but even my W's best friend said that to W. "Stop complaining. You gave up right to complain about that when you married him (me)."

We fought a couple of months ago. The cheating came up. I literally had not thought about it in more than decade. She finally told me she thought about it often when we had big fights "Why did I still marry you? I should have move on then".

From reading just two posts, and I hope I am dead wrong, but sounds like SON will not ever be able to forget this.


----------



## VeryHurt

FeministInPink said:


> She spent $10k on a breast reduction because her dress didn't fit?!?
> 
> CRAZY. Just buy a new freaking dress in the correct size.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


She has large breasts and always wanted a reduction. Looking good in her wedding gown was the motivating factor to get the reduction last month.

I went with her for the initial consultation and the surgeon suggested she wait until after she has her babies and/or breast feed them since she will need a revision. I explained to her that a revision is trickier because the surgeon is not working with "virgin" tissue, muscle etc...

But, she decided to do it for her wedding.


----------



## threelittlestars

See this was the same advice i was given. Have your kids then get a reduction and other cosmetic surgery to make it even better than before. 

I will get a reduction soon. i have all kinds of back and neck issues. It really WILL affect not just the look of them after children, but it may actually affect her ability to breast feed.


----------



## VeryHurt

threelittlestars said:


> Read the first and second page and skipped the middle.
> 
> First, since its still i guess not accepted that SHE (fiance) cheated, but what about the OM? was the OBS informed that there was a highly sexual affair between her husband and your future daughter in law? I do hope that was brought to light... Because if she did not cheat on your son, she was party to and aiding the cheating of another.
> 
> As to breast reduction. I wish i could have that done! I have 38 triple k size... I can't go to victoria secret or ANY other easy store to buy a bra.... It suxs. I need a reduction and i have no money and my insurance calls it vanity! UGH try shopping for a size that is half way through the alphabet! ugh, her level of vanity disgusts me... Buy a new fracking dress! ugh!
> 
> Please please i and so praying to the forces that guide us to not let this woman be the mother of your grandchildren. She is SO not right!


3LS ~

The OM was engaged and had a 3 month old baby. My son found out because he sensed she was not being honest with him so while she was away from her phone, he searched through her text messages.
Also, my son received a message on his Facebook page from an "anonymous" person.

VH


----------



## VeryHurt

threelittlestars said:


> See this was the same advice i was given. Have your kids then get a reduction and other cosmetic surgery to make it even better than before.
> 
> I will get a reduction soon. i have all kinds of back and neck issues. It really WILL affect not just the look of them after children, but it may actually affect her ability to breast feed.


Well 3LS, you are mature and sensible and will listen to medical advice but my soon-to-be DIL knows it all !!!!!!!


----------



## threelittlestars

I am SO very sorry! i just can't help but picture you sitting there shaking your head and biting your tongue hard. Or the inside of your cheek and grinding your teeth.


----------



## VeryHurt

blueinbr said:


> In hindsight, my wife and I wish she had a breast reduction when younger. All the medical issues now make that too late.
> 
> If they were really big that would be a heavy weight on her chest and back, especially as she got older. Better to do that first. Good for her. Now a breast enlargement for a dress is a different story, IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> VH, why is he marrying her? They are just not a match. Nothing wrong with him or her. He is emotionally just like I was/am. She is different and always will be. They will clash as long as they are married. (Note I did not say all their lives).
> 
> Listen, if you know my story, you know I cheated on W before marriage. A drunked half-ONS, but no excuse. W still married me. She remembers that incident. Never will forget.
> 
> Now once they marry, he won't be able to mention it again because if he brings it up, she will say (maybe rightfully so) "Then why did you still marry me."
> 
> I never played that card but even my W's best friend said that to W. "Stop complaining. You gave up right to complain about that when you married him (me)."
> 
> We fought a couple of months ago. The cheating came up. I literally had not thought about it in more than decade. She finally told me she thought about it often when we had big fights "Why did I still marry you? I should have move on then".
> 
> From reading just two posts, and I hope I am dead wrong, but sounds like SON will not ever be able to forget this.


You are right Blu and I will tell him: Once you get married, you forfeit your right to complain about the OM. Seems harsh but it's true. I know my son, he will NEVER forget what she did and he WILL throw it up in her face and that is NOT FAIR to her either.
One of the biggest hurdles he has is overcoming the "visual" text that he saw.


----------



## 225985

VeryHurt said:


> You are right Blu and I will tell him: Once you get married, you forfeit your right to complain about the OM. Seems harsh but it's true. I know my son, he will NEVER forget what she did and he WILL throw it up in her face and that is NOT FAIR to her either.
> One of the biggest hurdles he has is overcoming the "visual" text that he saw.


Imagine at the wedding reception the bride has her phone in her hand and is clicking. Something harmless. Your son sees her 10 feet way doing that. What will that trigger in him? On his WEDDING DAY!


----------



## BioFury

VeryHurt said:


> She has large breasts and always wanted a reduction. Looking good in her wedding gown was the motivating factor to get the reduction last month.
> 
> I went with her for the initial consultation and the surgeon suggested she wait until after she has her babies and/or breast feed them since she will need a revision. I explained to her that a revision is trickier because the surgeon is not working with "virgin" tissue, muscle etc...
> 
> But, she decided to do it for her wedding.


Her wedding? And who may I ask does she think she is marrying?

She cheated out of spite because "she didn't have an engagement ring"? Your son is being an idiot. Tell him to run for the hills before it's too late. She has permanent character flaws that counseling isn't going to fix.


----------



## kristin2349

blueinbr said:


> Imagine at the wedding reception the bride has her phone in her hand and is clicking. Something harmless. Your son sees her 10 feet way doing that. What will that trigger in him? On his WEDDING DAY!



That is the reality of life with a cheater, triggers are everywhere. He has witnessed first hand what cheating has done with VH. His fiance did him a favor by showing him who she was before he married her

A similar thing happened to my sister and her first marriage lasted less than a year.


----------



## 225985

VeryHurt said:


> My son is still going to see his Psychiatrist twice a month w/ his fiancee. He is still obsessing over her "on a break" tryst and the Doc wants to put him on Lexapro.


So, your son has to see a Psychiatrist and be drugged on anti-depressant just so he can get "well" enough to marry the girl that cheated on him?

He has to be drugged to tolerate the situation and his fiancee?

That is so WRONG. After all that has happened between M & D?

FWIW: Not knowing Lexapro - wife takes it and it literally saved her life.

BTW, I was told by a counselor that a P basically hands out the meds with short (15 min) session. I thought an IC therapist would do the hour long session on helping him getting through this. I can get lexapro from my family doc and then see an IC.


----------



## VeryHurt

blueinbr said:


> So, your son has to see a Psychiatrist and be drugged on anti-depressant just so he can get "well" enough to marry the girl that cheated on him?
> 
> He has to be drugged to tolerate the situation and his fiancee?
> 
> That is so WRONG. After all that has happened between M & D?
> 
> FWIW: Not knowing Lexapro - wife takes it and it literally saved her life.
> 
> BTW, I was told by a counselor that a P basically hands out the meds with short (15 min) session. I thought an IC therapist would do the hour long session on helping him getting through this. I can get lexapro from my family doc and then see an IC.


Luckily, my son's psychiatrist has known him since he was 8 years old when he was diagnosed with ADD. He is now 30 years old and he sees him whenever something big happens in his life. For example, mom and dad getting divorced. This Doc also knows me and my stbxh very well.
He is not a pill pusher.


----------



## 225985

VeryHurt said:


> He is not a pill pusher.


I did not mean to imply he was a pill pusher. My GP is a pill pusher. 

What I meant was it really svcks for your son to need therapy and anti-depressants just to get "well enough" to "accept" marrying a cheating woman. 

Sort or like treating a mentally ill murdered with drugs so that he can get well enough for the death penalty.

Not knocking the IC or the meds. I have been taking Zoloft for a while for my problem. And I'm doing IC. 

I know I am supposed to read the thread, but why does your son want to marry this woman - apart from the cheating? And are they compatible enough for him to overcome that she cheated?

I will take his side and call it cheating. She sees it as a break and that fundamental disagreement on the cheating will haunt them both the whole marriage. I predict he will keep bringing it up until she either gets fed up and leaves or until she cheats again.

Sorry VH. Not trying to make life tougher on you.


----------



## karole

Does your son have a pre-nup? If not, he needs too.


----------



## honcho

blueinbr said:


> So, your son has to see a Psychiatrist and be drugged on anti-depressant just so he can get "well" enough to marry the girl that cheated on him?
> 
> He has to be drugged to tolerate the situation and his fiancee?
> 
> That is so WRONG. After all that has happened between M & D?
> 
> FWIW: Not knowing Lexapro - wife takes it and it literally saved her life.
> 
> BTW, I was told by a counselor that a P basically hands out the meds with short (15 min) session. I thought an IC therapist would do the hour long session on helping him getting through this. I can get lexapro from my family doc and then see an IC.


My crazy ex took lexipro for many years. They can be very effective but are most effective in conjunction with therapy. As with most of these types of meds you can't just stop taking them. People need to be weaned off otherwise the results are not good and part of the reason my crazy ex is called crazy.....


----------



## VeryHurt

Update

Son just called me and said, " mom, do you not want me to marry blank?"

Sh!t now what?

I can't make that decision

Situation very fluid ..........


----------



## VeryHurt

karole said:


> Does your son have a pre-nup? If not, he needs too.


He does NOT want a pre-nup because it is cold and unromantic.


----------



## VeryHurt

I told him, you already have 4 issues
In laws
Financial
Emotional
Trust

He is talking to fiancee on the phone right now

Her mom still causing problems

You've heard of bridezillas, well her mom is a mother of the bridezilla

Even stbx aka IB is calling me


----------



## VeryHurt

I think he cannot look past her blue eyes, blond hair and good looks.

It's insane. I need this like a friggin hole in the head.


----------



## honcho

VeryHurt said:


> He does NOT want a pre-nup because it is cold and unromantic.


Even I'd they didn't have problems you should strongly advice him it's the smart choice and after him witnessing the train wreck of your divorce it should be a no brainer for him.


----------



## 225985

VeryHurt said:


> I think he cannot look past her blue eyes, blond hair and good looks.
> 
> It's insane. I need this like a friggin hole in the head.


Have him fold a sheet of paper in half, make two columns. In one column list all the reasons to marry her. In the other all the reasons NOT to marry her. Then have him pick the TOP 5 in each column.



VeryHurt said:


> He does NOT want a pre-nup because it is cold and unromantic.


So is cheating.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Ask him what HE wants to do... Sounds like he is projecting onto you unless he caught wind of something you said.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## VeryHurt

I think he is projecting onto me too.

I think he wants to hear from Mommy, "Dont marry her."

But i will not say it.

His life.

His decision.

I can only advise and I told him the issues that he already has.


----------



## Tron

blueinbr said:


> Tell him to picture those blue eyes looking into the other man's eyes with lust while he is pounding her - repeatedly.


It may be crude... but effective.


----------



## BioFury

VeryHurt said:


> I think he is projecting onto me too.
> 
> I think he wants to hear from Mommy, "Dont marry her."
> 
> But i will not say it.
> 
> His life.
> 
> His decision.
> 
> I can only advise and I told him the issues that he already has.


Is there a reason you can't bring yourself to say "don't marry her"? You're his mother. Yes, he's an adult, but that doesn't mean you stay silent while he jumps off the side of a cliff.

If you want to remain in an advising position, then don't tell him what to do, and just share your opinion by saying: "If you marry her, I think she'll be the biggest mistake of your life".


----------



## turnera

VeryHurt said:


> Update
> 
> Son just called me and said, " mom, do you not want me to marry blank?"
> 
> Sh!t now what?
> 
> I can't make that decision
> 
> Situation very fluid ..........


"Son, of course I don't want you to marry her. She's absolutely wrong for you."


----------



## turnera

VeryHurt said:


> I told him, you already have 4 issues
> In laws
> Financial
> Emotional
> Trust


I wish you would have told him the truth - that the real issue is that he doesn't value himself enough to see - or understand - that she's not good enough for him. That he didn't learn good skills from his dad, and he needs to work on that.


----------



## GusPolinski

VeryHurt said:


> I think he is projecting onto me too.
> 
> I think he wants to hear from Mommy, "Dont marry her."
> 
> But i will not say it.
> 
> His life.
> 
> His decision.
> 
> I can only advise and I told him the issues that he already has.


Oh, FFS.

Say it!


----------



## GusPolinski

VeryHurt said:


> He does NOT want a pre-nup because it is cold and unromantic.


OMFG.

VH, with all due respect...

Your. Son. Is. A. F*cking. Dumbass.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I understand the sentiment of wanting him to make the decision, but I agree with the others and would not want to be silent. 

"I worry she will be too destructive given her past patterns of behavior. So I am very concerned about a life committment to her."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 225985

GusPolinski said:


> Oh, FFS.
> 
> Say it!


Yes, VH. Do it. Are you just going to sit back and watch this train wreck play out?

If SON is upset now for the WEDDING, imagine how he will be if she cheats again or if they get divorced?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

VeryHurt said:


> Update
> 
> Son just called me and said, " mom, do you not want me to marry blank?"
> 
> Sh!t now what?
> 
> I can't make that decision
> 
> Situation very fluid ..........


No, the situation is not "fluid" for you. My daughter recently was married and I am not happy at all. IMO, they are waaaaaaaay too young. Still, I sat her down explained how I felt and that she should wait until he came back from his deployment to be married. I told her she was an adult and ultimately it was her choice and I'd accept her decision, but I'm not going to sit back and be quiet. We talked it out and I was the good father, congratulated them and accepted their decision. 

Sorry, this is why your kids ask for ADVICE. You tell them the truth, especially at THIRTY, then let the cards land where they may. Nope, when I told you to step back earlier HE didn't ask you for advice and was doing his own thing. This time, HE ASKED. So, you should have laid it all on the line.

Also, when a good opportunity present itself, you take it. What value does your SO have in you, when you get a good job and they break up with you to screw someone in a committed relationship? He valued his GF, she didn't value him.


----------



## turnera

I agree. My DD is 25 and she still asks me what I think about things because she wants to hear what a real adult would do in her situation. Because she knows I have the experience to see right from wrong. She NEEDS to hear from me what I would do. I was asking my mom for advice when I was 50. 

He NEEDS you to tell him what you think because he KNOWS in his gut it's wrong but he doesn't have the self esteem to break it off. That's exactly when a son needs a mom to tell him the truth.

Unfortunately, YOUR years from living with his dad ruined YOUR self esteem, too. You and your son are actually a lot alike. That's what living with an abusive person does to you. So help each other out, ok?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

You know what is interesting about her "I didn't have an engagement ring" excuse? She blameshifted WITH emotional blackmail in the same breath.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

blueinbr said:


> This may have already been discussed, but can the wedding be postponed? At least that if not outright cancelled.


Yes, all of this has been discussed and hammered out.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Oh and let me add, she came to me and asked how I felt when they decided to get married earlier than expected.


----------



## karole

VH, I mean this with the utmost respect, but your son seems so much like your husband in the maturity department!!

Your son is screwing himself. I would tell him that getting married is his decision, but there's no way he should do it without a pre-nup in place first!!


----------



## FeministInPink

VH, my mother was always of the mindset that she needed to teach my sister that we needed to make our own decisions, so from an early age, she refused to give us advice about anything. And so now, we never ask her for advice about anything, and she has no idea what's going on in my life, because I feel no need to confide in her, as her behavior indicated to me that she simply didn't care. (On the other hand, this worked out well for my sister and I, because she would have given us sh!tty advice, and she's bitter and blames everyone else for her own unhappiness--but this doesn't apply to you in any way.)

But the other thing that my mother failed to grasp is that we make the best decisions for ourselves when we seek the advice and counsel of those who have more life experience and/or a different perspective. 

Does the President of the US or CEOs of major corporations or presidents of universities make decisions without consulting others? No, they don't. They seek the counsel of their advisors, because the hallmark of a good leader is knowing that they have to draw on collective wisdom, and not just their own experience, to make decisions.

When I have a big decision to make, I consult my close friends and my sister--those who know me best--and occasionally someone who may not know me well, but who may have experience in this area. Why? Because they offer a different perspective, and they may see things that I don't. They know me well enough to have good insight how a particular event or circumstances may impact me and how I might react, when I may not because I'm in the middle of it. If I had a closer relationship with my parents--and if mom wasn't so dysfunctional--I might ask for their advice, too. Despite gathering all this input, it's still MY decision. Consulting others for their counsel doesn't take away my agency or my ownership of the situation, but it helps me make a better informed decision.

Your son is asking for your advice because he NEEDS IT. HE sees what you're going through, and he doesn't want to end up in the same predicament. And he is scared. 

He needs your wisdom and insight, and I think you are being unfair in denying him that. I understand where you're coming from. You want him to be strong. You want him to make his own decisions. But there is nothing weak in seeking out help when you need it. It actually takes a great deal of strength to know you need help and to ask for it. And unless you are demanding that he not marry this woman and forcing that choice on him, it is still his decision--you're not taking that away from him.

When I was going through my divorce, I had a talk with my father. And it came out that my father never wanted me to marry XH. He didn't think XH was good enough for me. He didn't trust XH; he thought XH was going to ruin me financially and make me very unhappy. He saw things that I couldn't see, because he had an outside perspective. He knew that my XH was all talk and no substance, he could see it--whereas I couldn't. But he didn't say anything to me about it, for reasons very similar to your reasons for not saying anything. 

I wish he would have said something to me, that he would have voiced his opinions. I wish he had told me all of what he was thinking. I wish he had told me that I deserved more than what XH had to offer, that he had told me not to make the same mistake that he did (marrying someone like my mom). My life might be so different today.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## GusPolinski

blueinbr said:


> Yes, VH. Do it. Are you just going to sit back and watch this train wreck play out?
> 
> If SON is upset now for the WEDDING, imagine how he will be if she cheats again or if they get divorced?


Or once he realizes that "his" children look an awful lot like the neighbor.

Or neighbor_*s*_.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

FeministInPink said:


> VH, my mother was always of the mindset that she needed to teach my sister that we needed to make our own decisions, so from an early age, she refused to give us advice about anything. And so now, we never ask her for advice about anything, and she has no idea what's going on in my life, because I feel no need to confide in her, as her behavior indicated to me that she simply didn't care. (On the other hand, this worked out well for my sister and I, because she would have given us sh!tty advice, and she's bitter and blames everyone else for her own unhappiness--but this doesn't apply to you in any way.)
> 
> But the other thing that my mother failed to grasp is that we make the best decisions for ourselves when we seek the advice and counsel of those who have more life experience and/or a different perspective.
> 
> Does the President of the US or CEOs of major corporations or presidents of universities make decisions without consulting others? No, they don't. They seek the counsel of their advisors, because the hallmark of a good leader is knowing that they have to draw on collective wisdom, and not just their own experience, to make decisions.
> 
> When I have a big decision to make, I consult my close friends and my sister--those who know me best--and occasionally someone who may not know me well, but who may have experience in this area. Why? Because they offer a different perspective, and they may see things that I don't. They know me well enough to have good insight how a particular event or circumstances may impact me and how I might react, when I may not because I'm in the middle of it. If I had a closer relationship with my parents--and if mom wasn't so dysfunctional--I might ask for their advice, too. Despite gathering all this input, it's still MY decision. Consulting others for their counsel doesn't take away my agency or my ownership of the situation, but it helps me make a better informed decision.
> 
> Your son is asking for your advice because he NEEDS IT. HE sees what you're going through, and he doesn't want to end up in the same predicament. And he is scared.
> 
> He needs your wisdom and insight, and I think you are being unfair in denying him that. I understand where you're coming from. You want him to be strong. You want him to make his own decisions. But there is nothing weak in seeking out help when you need it. It actually takes a great deal of strength to know you need help and to ask for it. And unless you are demanding that he not marry this woman and forcing that choice on him, it is still his decision--you're not taking that away from him.
> 
> When I was going through my divorce, I had a talk with my father. And it came out that my father never wanted me to marry XH. He didn't think XH was good enough for me. He didn't trust XH; he thought XH was going to ruin me financially and make me very unhappy. He saw things that I couldn't see, because he had an outside perspective. He knew that my XH was all talk and no substance, he could see it--whereas I couldn't. But he didn't say anything to me about it, for reasons very similar to your reasons for not saying anything.
> 
> I wish he would have said something to me, that he would have voiced his opinions. I wish he had told me all of what he was thinking. I wish he had told me that I deserved more than what XH had to offer, that he had told me not to make the same mistake that he did (marrying someone like my mom). My life might be so different today.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Brillant post.


----------



## FeministInPink

Blossom Leigh said:


> Brillant post.


Thanks 

Took me FOREVER to type on my phone.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## Thor

blueinbr said:


> Now once they marry, he won't be able to mention it again because if he brings it up, she will say (maybe rightfully so) "Then why did you still marry me."
> 
> I never played that card but even my W's best friend said that to W. "Stop complaining. You gave up right to complain about that when you married him (me)."
> 
> We fought a couple of months ago. The cheating came up. I literally had not thought about it in more than decade. She finally told me she thought about it often when we had big fights "Why did I still marry you? I should have move on then".


This is going on a tangent from the original thread, but this is interesting to me. I have to hit the road momentarily but perhaps I'll start a thread on this topic.

There was an event while I was engaged when I really thought I should have ended the relationship. My wife took me to a concert her ex-bf was playing, and signed me up as his roadie. I watched him sing "their song" to her as she sat right in front of him.

I guess maybe we'd now call it an EA, but back then it was called "carrying a torch" for an ex. She clearly wasn't over him.

But I still married her and thus I don't have the right to mention that event. Yet it clearly has been an ongoing problem for both of us.

I'm re-evaluating my thoughts on if someone has no right to mention a past event if they then continue the relationship knowing about it.


----------



## 225985

Thor said:


> I'm re-evaluating my thoughts on if someone has no right to mention a past event if they then continue the relationship knowing about it.


There are certain milestone events that signal acceptance - marriage, divorce, starting a job, etc. 

Most of us have been treated badly at work at some time. Many of us just accept it - some will quit and find a BETTER job.

But how many of us would accept a job if we were treated badly DURING THE INTERVIEW? Not many at all. Unless the money was really really good. (What is it about this woman that he NEEDS her??)

SON is still interviewing. He sees a lot about this job he likes, but A LOT that says the job is just not a good thing for him. Someone else may be a better fit for that job. The job is not necessarily bad. Just not for him. If he accepts and STARTS the job, he will find that he is not happy and wishes he took another job. But he will find getting another job hard work (emotionally) so he will stay and eventually be miserable in his job. 

He is asking: "Mom, should I take this job?"


----------



## Adelais

VH, does your son have a low self esteem, and is he clinging to fiance because he feels deep inside that he will not get another chance with another good-looking girl?

My thought is that unless he gets to the bottom of his self esteem issues, he will not have the courage to deal with the facts of this fiance: she is not marriage material, they are not compatible, she and her mother will make his life miserable, he will never be able to forget her cheating, and will forever be reminded and hurt when the triggers come....and they will come.

He needs to dump her and all her problems. He needs to find his own self worth, his courage, and value the quality of his own life.

He will be MISERABLE with this shallow shell of a woman if he marries her. Who starts a marriage after intense therapy over the dating problems?


----------



## VeryHurt

turnera said:


> I agree. My DD is 25 and she still asks me what I think about things because she wants to hear what a real adult would do in her situation. Because she knows I have the experience to see right from wrong. She NEEDS to hear from me what I would do. I was asking my mom for advice when I was 50.
> 
> He NEEDS you to tell him what you think because he KNOWS in his gut it's wrong but he doesn't have the self esteem to break it off. That's exactly when a son needs a mom to tell him the truth.
> 
> Unfortunately, YOUR years from living with his dad ruined YOUR self esteem, too. You and your son are actually a lot alike. That's what living with an abusive person does to you. So help each other out, ok?


Tunera ~

I get this. But I don't know how to explain it to my son. 

VH


----------



## VeryHurt

karole said:


> VH, I mean this with the utmost respect, but your son seems so much like your husband in the maturity department!!
> 
> Your son is screwing himself. I would tell him that getting married is his decision, but there's no way he should do it without a pre-nup in place first!!


Karole ~
You are absolutely correct.
VH


----------



## VeryHurt

FeministInPink said:


> VH, my mother was always of the mindset that she needed to teach my sister that we needed to make our own decisions, so from an early age, she refused to give us advice about anything. And so now, we never ask her for advice about anything, and she has no idea what's going on in my life, because I feel no need to confide in her, as her behavior indicated to me that she simply didn't care. (On the other hand, this worked out well for my sister and I, because she would have given us sh!tty advice, and she's bitter and blames everyone else for her own unhappiness--but this doesn't apply to you in any way.)
> 
> But the other thing that my mother failed to grasp is that we make the best decisions for ourselves when we seek the advice and counsel of those who have more life experience and/or a different perspective.
> 
> Does the President of the US or CEOs of major corporations or presidents of universities make decisions without consulting others? No, they don't. They seek the counsel of their advisors, because the hallmark of a good leader is knowing that they have to draw on collective wisdom, and not just their own experience, to make decisions.
> 
> When I have a big decision to make, I consult my close friends and my sister--those who know me best--and occasionally someone who may not know me well, but who may have experience in this area. Why? Because they offer a different perspective, and they may see things that I don't. They know me well enough to have good insight how a particular event or circumstances may impact me and how I might react, when I may not because I'm in the middle of it. If I had a closer relationship with my parents--and if mom wasn't so dysfunctional--I might ask for their advice, too. Despite gathering all this input, it's still MY decision. Consulting others for their counsel doesn't take away my agency or my ownership of the situation, but it helps me make a better informed decision.
> 
> Your son is asking for your advice because he NEEDS IT. HE sees what you're going through, and he doesn't want to end up in the same predicament. And he is scared.
> 
> He needs your wisdom and insight, and I think you are being unfair in denying him that. I understand where you're coming from. You want him to be strong. You want him to make his own decisions. But there is nothing weak in seeking out help when you need it. It actually takes a great deal of strength to know you need help and to ask for it. And unless you are demanding that he not marry this woman and forcing that choice on him, it is still his decision--you're not taking that away from him.
> 
> When I was going through my divorce, I had a talk with my father. And it came out that my father never wanted me to marry XH. He didn't think XH was good enough for me. He didn't trust XH; he thought XH was going to ruin me financially and make me very unhappy. He saw things that I couldn't see, because he had an outside perspective. He knew that my XH was all talk and no substance, he could see it--whereas I couldn't. But he didn't say anything to me about it, for reasons very similar to your reasons for not saying anything.
> 
> I wish he would have said something to me, that he would have voiced his opinions. I wish he had told me all of what he was thinking. I wish he had told me that I deserved more than what XH had to offer, that he had told me not to make the same mistake that he did (marrying someone like my mom). My life might be so different today.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


This was such a beautiful post Pinky :x


----------



## 225985

karole said:


> but there's no way he should do it without a pre-nup in place first!!


IMO here is the problem with the pre-nup. If SON insists on a pre-nup, he is admitting to himself that the woman is not trustworthy, and what guy would marry a woman who is not trustworthy? Back to the TRUST issue. 

It is ironic that when I am buying a new car the salesperson tells me how reliable the model is. As soon as I say yes, I will buy, they try to sell me the extended warranty - because - well, the model is not as reliable as they just told me. 

Your SON does not want an extended warranty on this wife. 

After he gets burned in this marriage, he will insist on a pre-nup for marriage #2. But that story will be in another thread, one he writes himself.

ETA: 

VH, if your son was about to do something that caused him physical harm, would you stop him? Of course. You would tell him not to do it. Well, this is going to cause him emotional and maybe financial harm. And many of us here know full well how much emotional pain hurts - maybe more than physical pain. And emotional pain often lasts a lot longer and much harder to get over. Think about that.


----------



## VeryHurt

Update:

Phew, just caught up on this thread. I wanted to talk to my son this morning but he was late for work.

I am going to talk to him but I want to "write" it out here first and pass it by the best at life's problems, people at TAM !!! :smile2:

After work he wants to talk to her Mom as she is being a control freak and rude. This may seem infantile but here is what is going on.

We had "Save the Date" cards printed. She (bride's mom) insisted that she write them out and mail them. My cousin is a third generation printer, the old-fashioned kind, who using the printing presses. His work is gorgeous. 

We discovered that she held 4 cards back from her family and sent them to 4 friends. She didn't tell anyone. So, we find out 8 more people were invited. My son was not thrilled about her "shady" behavior.

Also, he found out other sneaky things (financial) that she did. He does not like his future MIL.

When my son and his fiancee when to see my cousin to select the wedding invites, he asked, where do you want the response cards mailed? My son said, to MY mom. The fiancee knew this and did NOT object.

Last weekend she found out they were not going to HER home but to my home and went nuts. She started sending me nasty E-mails yesterday and accusing me of pulling this stunt.

I explained to her that I had NOTHING to do with it, that my son and her daughter went to the printers alone.

Long story short, the fiancee blames my cousin that he made a "mistake with his printing" and that "he should have known the response cards always go to the bride's home."

She did NOT stand up to her mom and admit that she knew from the get-go they were coming to MY home.

(Just a FYI: My cousin has been doing this for 40 years and he told me the reception response cards can go anywhere: the bride, the groom, to a PO Box, the bride's parents, the groom's parents and even sent to the wedding planner. He no longer assumes the bride's parents get them.)

The mom contacts my cousin and tells him to reprint all the envelopes and put HER address on them.

Yesterday was WWIII in E-mails between her mom and me.

This evening my son to going to her parent's home to take care of this. He implied that "the envelopes will probably have to be reprinted."

Do I:

A. Sit back and wait and see if his balls are bigger than his dad's and stand up to the fiancee and her mom? See if he has my back?

B. Get him off the hook and send him an E-mail and tell him to let the control-freak-alcoholic get them at her home.


Then the bride says a few weeks ago, right in my kitchen, "I don't care about the wedding cake", let my son decide. So, he and I select a cake, I contact the bakery and a few days ago she says that "she didn't think I was going to place the order."

This fiancee is a back-stabber. 

(BTW: Is Blossom Leigh correct, is she a blame shifter?)

I can go on with my examples but I think you get the point. 

I see a fiancee who can't stand up to her mom and throws her future mother-in-law (VH) under the bus. I see a lack of character. A manipulator.

Please let me know what you think and this response card conundrum.

Later, I will write my sample letter to my son for your review.

Thanks ~

VH


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Yes, I believe Blossom Leigh is correct... hee hee 

j/k

How does your son feel about her mom going off on you like that.... that is SO not ok. This girl is a serious problem for your son and its compounded by the actions of her mother.


----------



## VeryHurt

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yes, I believe Blossom Leigh is correct... hee hee
> 
> j/k
> 
> How does your son feel about her mom going off on you like that.... that is SO not ok. This girl is a serious problem for your son and its compounded by the actions of her mother.


I gotta be honest BL, he did not seem to be too upset that her mom was out of line. He almost seems in a fog or over whelmed.


----------



## turnera

Why do you have to write your own son a letter? You AND he seem incapable of standing by your convictions. You spent a whole page telling us how horrible that family is, when it doesn't even matter.

The issue at hand is YOU telling YOUR son the marriage is a mistake. 

And you do this and do that and wring your hands and justify...all to avoid just saying 'son, this marriage is a mistake and you're going to be miserable. That's my advice.'

You don't need a letter for one sentence.

And of course he's overwhelmed. He's never had a parent show him how to value himself, stand up for himself, and his father convinced him he's worthless and lucky ANY girl will have him.

Change the dynamics. Give him a chance. Show him a strong woman who says what she thinks, so he will know how to do it.


----------



## VeryHurt

turnera said:


> Why do you have to write your own son a letter? You AND he seem incapable of standing by your convictions. You spent a whole page telling us how horrible that family is, when it doesn't even matter.
> 
> The issue at hand is YOU telling YOUR son the marriage is a mistake.
> 
> And you do this and do that and wring your hands and justify...all to avoid just saying 'son, this marriage is a mistake and you're going to be miserable. That's my advice.'
> 
> You don't need a letter for one sentence.
> 
> And of course he's overwhelmed. He's never had a parent show him how to value himself, stand up for himself, and his father convinced him he's worthless and lucky ANY girl will have him.
> 
> Change the dynamics. Give him a chance. Show him a strong woman who says what she thinks, so he will know how to do it.


Tunera,
No, I will speak with him but if I write it down first it will help me.
VH


----------



## Blossom Leigh

VeryHurt said:


> I gotta be honest BL, he did not seem to be too upset that her mom was out of line. He almost seems in a fog or over whelmed.


Overwhelmed sounds really accurate.


----------



## karole

turnera said:


> why do you have to write your own son a letter? You and he seem incapable of standing by your convictions. You spent a whole page telling us how horrible that family is, when it doesn't even matter.
> 
> The issue at hand is you telling your son the marriage is a mistake.
> 
> And you do this and do that and wring your hands and justify...all to avoid just saying 'son, this marriage is a mistake and you're going to be miserable. That's my advice.'
> 
> you don't need a letter for one sentence.
> 
> And of course he's overwhelmed. He's never had a parent show him how to value himself, stand up for himself, and his father convinced him he's worthless and lucky any girl will have him.
> 
> Change the dynamics. Give him a chance. Show him a strong woman who says what she thinks, so he will know how to do it.


amen! Great post!!


----------



## 225985

VH,

I have only "known" you a short period of time. But I have come to respect you - highly. I really mean that. I value your opinion (highly) and advice. You do not know me but you have taken time to give ME advice and I am doing my best to execute it. You have given GREAT advice to MANY of us, and we are thankful.

Now, YOUR SON needs you and needs your help. Of all people to give advice to, he is the one. If he was a TAMer you would not hesitate to give the advice you KNOW is right. 

@Tunera is right. "The issue at hand is YOU telling YOUR son the marriage is a mistake. " All this clutter about cards and addresses and cakes is just a distraction from the conversation that must take place.

You may not believe it, but you have great strength. And great empathy. :wink2:

If you need to do the letter first, fine. Do the letter and THEN talk to him. He might just read it and say - "Mom, you are right. Thank you so much"

But do something - TODAY!


----------



## VeryHurt

I want you to know that I love you and want the very best fro you. 
Fiancee is a very nice person but she she isn't the person for you.
I have a concern about her character and her commitment to you. I don't see you getting back the same attention and affection that you give her. It appears to me that you value her more than she values you. She isn't capable to take responsibility for her own actions and she tends to shift the blame off herself and put it onto others. This is not a sign of a person who is _____________ I can't think of the word.

You already have issues in your relationship that don't make a good foundation for a solid strong long-term marriage. You have trust issues, you are concerned about her spending, your concerned about her telling the truth about her spending, you have a problem with her mom that you will have to stuff your whole marriage, you are emotionally not compatible. 

I will not tell you not to marry her but I will tell you that I have a concern about your happiness and ______________


----------



## Blossom Leigh

VeryHurt said:


> I want you to know that I love you and want the very best fro you.
> Fiancee is a very nice person but she she isn't the person for you.
> I have a concern about her character and her commitment to you. I don't see you getting back the same attention and affection that you give her. It appears to me that you value her more than she values you. She isn't capable to take responsibility for her own actions and she tends to shift the blame off herself and put it onto others. This is not a sign of a person who is _____________ I can't think of the word.
> 
> You already have issues in your relationship that don't make a good foundation for a solid strong long-term marriage. You have trust issues, you are concerned about her spending, your concerned about her telling the truth about her spending, you have a problem with her mom that you will have to stuff your whole marriage, you are emotionally not compatible.
> 
> I will not tell you not to marry her but I will tell you that I have a concern about your happiness and ______________


This would be my style...

Son,

I am grateful you have asked me what I think about your relationship with Fiance, it gives me the opportunity to speak truth into your life at a critical crossroads that can save you years of heartache. I want you to know that I love you and want the very best for you. 

Though Fiancee is a very nice person, I am concerned over some very serious character and committment issues to the degree that I feel she may very well not be a healthy choice for your life long marriage partner. I see it play out in different ways, such as I don't see you getting back the same attention and affection that you give her, it appears to me that you value her more than she values you, she isn't capable to take responsibility for her own actions and she tends to shift the blame off herself and put it onto others. This is not a sign of a person who is emotionally fit for marriage.

You already have issues in your relationship that don't make a good foundation for a solid strong long-term marriage. There are trust issues, money management differences, dishonesty, a volatile mother in law and emotional incapatibility.

I will leave the final decision to you, but if it were me in your shoes, knowing what I know now about marriage and character issues, I would, out of concern for long term happiness and emotional safety choose a different life long marriage partner. 

Love you forever, 
Mom


----------



## VeryHurt

Blossom Leigh said:


> This would be my style...
> 
> Son,
> 
> I am grateful you have asked me what I think about your relationship with Fiance, it gives me the opportunity to speak truth into your life at a critical crossroads that can save you years of heartache. I want you to know that I love you and want the very best for you.
> 
> Though Fiancee is a very nice person, I am concerned over some very serious character and committment issues to the degree that I feel she may very well not be a healthy choice for your life long marriage partner. I see it play out in different ways, such as I don't see you getting back the same attention and affection that you give her, it appears to me that you value her more than she values you, she isn't capable to take responsibility for her own actions and she tends to shift the blame off herself and put it onto others. This is not a sign of a person who is emotionally fit for marriage.
> 
> You already have issues in your relationship that don't make a good foundation for a solid strong long-term marriage. There are trust issues, money management differences, dishonesty, a volatile mother in law and emotional incapatibility.
> 
> I will leave the final decision to you, but if it were me in your shoes, knowing what I know now about marriage and character issues, I would, out of concern for long term happiness and emotional safety choose a different life long marriage partner.
> 
> Love you forever,
> Mom


BL ~
It's great !!:x


----------



## VeryHurt

I need advice on the response card situation that will explode this evening.

Do I send my son and E-mail and tell him that HER mom can get the cards 

OR 

Do i sit back and see what he will do?

FYI: It will bother me IF he caves in fiancee and her b!tch mother and tell them the cards can go to her mom.

I WANT TO SEE his fiancee UNITE with my son and say, "Mom, Mike's wants HIS mom to collect the cards and I support him."


----------



## Satya

VeryHurt said:


> I need advice on the response card situation that will explode this evening.
> 
> Do I send my son and E-mail and tell him that HER mom can get the cards
> 
> OR
> 
> Do i sit back and see what he will do?
> 
> FYI: It will bother me IF he caves in fiancee and her b!tch mother and tell them the cards can go to her mom.
> 
> I WANT TO SEE his fiancee UNITE with my son and say, "Mom, Mike's wants HIS mom to collect the cards and I support him."


Tough question VH, but I think that you need to err on the side of caution. This is going to be your son's future. Telling him how you feel is good, but then he needs to make decisions. 

I could be wrong about the future, but I agree with others that there is way, way too much drama way too early in this process. But, only your son can decide if he's going to pull the plug or not.

There often comes a point where the couple get fed up with parentzillas and just do what they want. I've known many couples that have eloped for this exact reason.


----------



## 225985

VeryHurt said:


> I need advice on the response card situation that will explode this evening.
> 
> Do I send my son and E-mail and tell him that HER mom can get the cards
> 
> OR
> 
> Do i sit back and see what he will do?
> 
> FYI: It will bother me IF he caves in fiancee and her b!tch mother and tell them the cards can go to her mom.
> 
> I WANT TO SEE his fiancee UNITE with my son and say, "Mom, Mike's wants HIS mom to collect the cards and I support him."


Have you ever heard the expression "rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic"? It means making well-meaning but negligible adjustments to an endeavor that is doomed to fail.


----------



## VeryHurt

blueinbr said:


> Have you ever heard the expression "rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic"? It means making well-meaning but negligible adjustments to an endeavor that is doomed to fail.


I get it but what is the endeavor in this situation?


----------



## 225985

VeryHurt said:


> I get it but what is the endeavor in this situation?


We mean that you should not be worried about response cards when the message to your SON is not to get married.


----------



## niceguy28

VeryHurt said:


> Update:
> 
> Phew, just caught up on this thread. I wanted to talk to my son this morning but he was late for work.
> 
> I am going to talk to him but I want to "write" it out here first and pass it by the best at life's problems, people at TAM !!! :smile2:
> 
> After work he wants to talk to her Mom as she is being a control freak and rude. This may seem infantile but here is what is going on.
> 
> We had "Save the Date" cards printed. She (bride's mom) insisted that she write them out and mail them. My cousin is a third generation printer, the old-fashioned kind, who using the printing presses. His work is gorgeous.
> 
> We discovered that she held 4 cards back from her family and sent them to 4 friends. She didn't tell anyone. So, we find out 8 more people were invited. My son was not thrilled about her "shady" behavior.
> 
> Also, he found out other sneaky things (financial) that she did. He does not like his future MIL.
> 
> When my son and his fiancee when to see my cousin to select the wedding invites, he asked, where do you want the response cards mailed? My son said, to MY mom. The fiancee knew this and did NOT object.
> 
> Last weekend she found out they were not going to HER home but to my home and went nuts. She started sending me nasty E-mails yesterday and accusing me of pulling this stunt.
> 
> I explained to her that I had NOTHING to do with it, that my son and her daughter went to the printers alone.
> 
> Long story short, the fiancee blames my cousin that he made a "mistake with his printing" and that "he should have known the response cards always go to the bride's home."
> 
> She did NOT stand up to her mom and admit that she knew from the get-go they were coming to MY home.
> 
> (Just a FYI: My cousin has been doing this for 40 years and he told me the reception response cards can go anywhere: the bride, the groom, to a PO Box, the bride's parents, the groom's parents and even sent to the wedding planner. He no longer assumes the bride's parents get them.)
> 
> The mom contacts my cousin and tells him to reprint all the envelopes and put HER address on them.
> 
> Yesterday was WWIII in E-mails between her mom and me.
> 
> This evening my son to going to her parent's home to take care of this. He implied that "the envelopes will probably have to be reprinted."
> 
> Do I:
> 
> A. Sit back and wait and see if his balls are bigger than his dad's and stand up to the fiancee and her mom? See if he has my back?
> 
> B. Get him off the hook and send him an E-mail and tell him to let the control-freak-alcoholic get them at her home.
> 
> 
> Then the bride says a few weeks ago, right in my kitchen, "I don't care about the wedding cake", let my son decide. So, he and I select a cake, I contact the bakery and a few days ago she says that "she didn't think I was going to place the order."
> 
> This fiancee is a back-stabber.
> 
> (BTW: Is Blossom Leigh correct, is she a blame shifter?)
> 
> I can go on with my examples but I think you get the point.
> 
> I see a fiancee who can't stand up to her mom and throws her future mother-in-law (VH) under the bus. I see a lack of character. A manipulator.
> 
> Please let me know what you think and this response card conundrum.
> 
> Later, I will write my sample letter to my son for your review.
> 
> Thanks ~
> 
> VH



I hate to say this but your son is about to be in a world of hurt. He has a shady soon to be wife and a seemingly bad set of in-laws. The fact that he doesn't like her mother only makes the situation worse and you having WWIII with her only adds fuel to the fire. Your son seems hell bent on marrying this girl even though it's going to cause him a lot of pain. If I were you I would have one last talk with him and say "Look, this is your life and I'm no longer going to be involved in telling you what you should and should not do with it. You have to make your own mistakes and deal with them because that's what a man does. I'm your mother and the only thing I can promise you is that I'll be there for you when things spiral out of control." Bottom line, I know he's your son but you are going to drive yourself insane dealing with all of this. Sometimes you have to let them go.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I would de-escalate the situation by stepping away while putting the emphasis on three areas.

1. The daughter knew
2. The mothers rough approach and false accusations are not ok.

3. They can all do what they want but you do not accept the lack of character in the daughter or mother. I would be very direct with the daughter that her choice to lie by ommission has cost her trust with you that will need to be repaired going forward.

Non apologetic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## VeryHurt

blueinbr said:


> We mean that you should not be worried about response cards when the message to your SON is not to get married.


But he is going to her mom's out TONIGHT.

I will NOT get a chance to talk to him until Saturday.

I still have to assume the wedding is on.

Do I get him off the hook and decrease his stress or see what happens?


----------



## VeryHurt

Blossom Leigh said:


> I would de-escalate the situation by stepping away while putting the emphasis on three areas.
> 
> 1. The daughter knew
> 2. The mothers rough approach and false accusations are not ok.
> 
> 3. They can all do what they want but you do not accept the lack of character in the daughter or mother. I would be very direct with the daughter that her choice to lie by ommission has cost her trust with you that will need to be repaired going forward.
> 
> Non apologetic.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks BL BUT I have to make a decision soon.
Should I tell my son, don't make a fuss tonight, just let her frigging mother get the response cards OR do I see what happens?


----------



## threelittlestars

Hey, This girl wants a wedding, NOT A MARRIAGE. 

I used to watch weddings, the ones where the couple focus more on the intimacy of their moment and are sensitive to the others needs are the most touching and the most beautiful. All this money, and drama and irriatation over trivial matters shows that her and her mother are only focused on COMPLETE AND UTTER CONTROL OF THE PARTY. but they fail to see the marriage that lies AFTER, and with all the cheating, and spending and shallow nutty behavior they WILL NOT SURVIVE THE YEAR. 

Yes, people may look at you as controlling, but i really hope you gain the courage to tell your son to get out as fast as he can.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

VeryHurt said:


> Thanks BL BUT I have to make a decision soon.
> Should I tell my son, don't make a fuss tonight, just let her frigging mother get the response cards OR do I see what happens?


I would tell him to not make a decision about it tonight for him to pause, take a breather and gain some space. I would invite him over for good food and when the conversation naturally starts up by him, offer your thoughts from the letter. No fuel needs to be given to this current issue. I would redirect him to the larger picture WITHOUT intent of manipulation, but of sharing wisdom with your son.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

VeryHurt said:


> But he is going to her mom's out TONIGHT.
> 
> I will NOT get a chance to talk to him until Saturday.
> 
> I still have to assume the wedding is on.
> 
> Do I get him off the hook and decrease his stress or see what happens?


What's the reason for the visit? Can you steal some time prior to?


----------



## tom67

Again keep it simple tell him in my opinion I do NOT think you should marry her, but it's your call.
Regarding your d with the ex, please set that to the side and for just a brief moment you two get together on a united front and both of you tell him this wedding is a mistake.
That's what I would do with my ex regarding our daughter.
Just a thought.


----------



## VeryHurt

Blossom Leigh said:


> What's the reason for the visit? Can you steal some time prior to?


My son and her daughter told the printer that the weddind rsvp response cards will be mailed to my house.

The mother is sneaky and shady and i would say an alcoholic and mom son has had enough of her crap.

She called the printer and told him to reprint all the envelopes with her address.

It would be nice if her daughter would say, mom, they are going to vh's home that is what we agreed.
But will she?
Will she back her future husband?


----------



## VeryHurt

tom67 said:


> Again keep it simple tell him in my opinion I do NOT think you should marry her, but it's your call.
> Regarding your d with the ex, please set that to the side and for just a brief moment you two get together on a united front and both of you tell him this wedding is a mistake.
> That's what I would do with my ex regarding our daughter.
> Just a thought.


Tom
We have spoken and we are united on supporting our son. 
Our son knows that we will support him and that we both love him.
VH


----------



## 225985

VeryHurt said:


> My son and her daughter told the printer that the weddind rsvp response cards will be mailed to my house.
> 
> The mother is sneaky and shady and i would say an alcoholic and mom son has had enough of her crap.
> 
> She called the printer and told him to reprint all the envelopes with her address.
> 
> It would be nice if her daughter would say, mom, they are going to vh's home that is what we agreed.
> But will she?
> Will she back her future husband?


If MIL wants to have the cards reprinted AT HER EXPENSE to change the address, let it go. It really is immaterial since the marriage is hopefully not going to happen anyway. That will buy time for SON to decompress and for you to talk to him. You do not need to win this battle (cards) but you need to win the war (no wedding).


----------



## VeryHurt

threelittlestars said:


> Hey, This girl wants a wedding, NOT A MARRIAGE.
> 
> I used to watch weddings, the ones where the couple focus more on the intimacy of their moment and are sensitive to the others needs are the most touching and the most beautiful. All this money, and drama and irriatation over trivial matters shows that her and her mother are only focused on COMPLETE AND UTTER CONTROL OF THE PARTY. but they fail to see the marriage that lies AFTER, and with all the cheating, and spending and shallow nutty behavior they WILL NOT SURVIVE THE YEAR.
> 
> Yes, people may look at you as controlling, but i really hope you gain the courage to tell your son to get out as fast as he can.


I agree. I dont think she gives a **** about him.
Get this. Her parents are paying 30 pct and we are paying 70 pct


----------



## Blossom Leigh

If she stands up to her at this point I will be shocked.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## threelittlestars

What ever happened to the tradition the family of the bride paid for the wedding? Not saying its fair but that was the tradition in my house. my parents not only were paying for my college but i had 10 grand to (blow) on a wedding. My wedding was a run away train. I wanted small and intimate....but my husbands family wanted big. They pressured for a bigger wedding, on my/my parents bill. My husband an i wanted most of the money to go on a down payment to a car or house...etc. 

My wedding was 6grand and beautiful...over the top for my vision, but i was more focused on the relationship...which is not without its problems now. But back then we were DEEPLY in love. 

how were you guys roped into 70%? Seems so wrong.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

blueinbr said:


> SON is still interviewing. He sees a lot about this job he likes, but A LOT that says the job is just not a good thing for him. Someone else may be a better fit for that job. The job is not necessarily bad. Just not for him. If he accepts and STARTS the job, he will find that he is not happy and wishes he took another job. But he will find getting another job hard work (emotionally) so he will stay and eventually be miserable in his job.
> 
> He is asking: "Mom, should I take this job?"


If we use the job analogy,he already passed the interview, he is on probationary status and is about to sign the contract. If you are going to therapy and now have escalated to taking pills, this is not the position for you. This is a bad job.


----------



## tom67

I suggest you show your son this video.
Russel Wilson is the Seattle qb who recently signed a multi million dollar contract and is going to marry without a prenup.
I think some of this is relevant.
If he doesn't respect himself no one will.
Anyway

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcH7Anb-Ngg


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

VeryHurt said:


> I agree. I dont think she gives a **** about him.
> Get this. Her parents are paying 30 pct and we are paying 70 pct


We've all said this is about the wedding for her, not about love. The more you post, the more it sounds true.


----------



## Broken at 20

So are you going to tell your son that you think this girl, who has CHEATED on him, and has a spending problem, is a very bad girl to marry yet? 
Or are you just going to let him ruin his life? 

And by the way, again, might I suggest he get a prenup? 
He can have written into it that they keep separate finances, and then actually keep separate finances (or I hope enjoys paying for shopping sprees) and something like, no alimony, or maybe, no alimony is someone cheats?

Although...this late in the process, any prenup he puts forth will be met with hostility, and could be thrown out in court due to it being signed under duress...

Actually, yea, he is going to ruin his life. 
Should be fun to watch.


----------



## VeryHurt

Broken at 20 said:


> So are you going to tell your son that you think this girl, who has CHEATED on him, and has a spending problem, is a very bad girl to marry yet?
> Or are you just going to let him ruin his life?
> 
> And by the way, again, might I suggest he get a prenup?
> He can have written into it that they keep separate finances, and then actually keep separate finances (or I hope enjoys paying for shopping sprees) and something like, no alimony, or maybe, no alimony is someone cheats?
> 
> Although...this late in the process, any prenup he puts forth will be met with hostility, and could be thrown out in court due to it being signed under duress...
> 
> Actually, yea, he is going to ruin his life.
> Should be fun to watch.


Should be fun to watch?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Poor sarcasm, something he does once in awhile.


----------



## Dyokemm

VH....

Your son's fiancee is a worthless, selfish, traitorous nightmare of a woman.

I know it will be uncomfortable for you to say it, but you have to tell him you do not support his decision to marry her.

And that you do not want to be involved any further in helping to plan or prepare for what you think will be the greatest mistake in his life.....let her family take over all the responsibilities.

Tell him you will be there to support him at his wedding if he decides to go through with it....and you will always remain civil with his fiance/wife.....but you cannot in good conscious involve yourself beyond that.

My parents (mainly my mom, but dad was in agreement) once did this with me.

I was seeing a girl for about 11 months.....it was just casual and fun for me, and I had no intentions of making this girl my wife....but we did spend a lot of time together, traveling and enjoying life.

I guess my parents thought I was a lot more serious about her than I actually was....and they couldn't stand the thought of me making what they thought was a huge mistake.

So one day when I was visiting my parents, they sat me down and basically told me every reason why they thought this girl was completely wrong for me (basically, a lot of the same red flags I saw and the reason why I never planned on making the R a serious commitment).

They said it was my life, but they would never agree with or support me marrying this girl.....and that if I chose to anyway, they would always be civil to her, but would refuse to involve themselves in any of the planning for the wedding or our future life at all.

I remember laughing and reassuring my parents that the girl and I were friends who enjoyed spending time with each other and sharing in life adventures, but I had NO intentions of trying to settle down with her.

They were very relieved. She was a real stunner, and I believe they thought (much like your son) that I was going to overlook all of her flaws/issues because of this fact.

I told them not to worry, they didn't raise an idiot....the girl's flaws would have made her a nightmare for a serious life partner, but she was a lot of fun to travel and party with.....and in truth, I think she saw the relationship the exact same way I did as well.

I was never upset at my parents about this at all.

I know they love me and always want what's best for me in their hearts...and this is what led them to broach what was a very uncomfortable topic for them.

And while it was a non-issue in that relationship, I feel good knowing that in the future my parents would do the same if they thought I was about to make a serious and life-damaging mistake.

A parent can't stay silent and watch their child self-destruct IMO....they have to share their thoughts and opinions.


----------



## VeryHurt

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Poor sarcasm, something he does once in awhile.


Not impressed.
Rude.
Not appreciated.


----------



## Hope1964

My son is engaged right now, and if he was engaged to your son's fiance there is NO BLOODY WAY IN HELL I would be a) keeping my mouth shut, or b) paying for ANY of the wedding, let alone 70 freaking %!!


----------



## VeryHurt

Dyokemm said:


> VH....
> 
> Your son's fiancee is a worthless, selfish, traitorous nightmare of a woman.
> 
> I know it will be uncomfortable for you to say it, but you have to tell him you do not support his decision to marry her.
> 
> And that you do not want to be involved any further in helping to plan or prepare for what you think will be the greatest mistake in his life.....let her family take over all the responsibilities.
> 
> Tell him you will be there to support him at his wedding if he decides to go through with it....and you will always remain civil with his fiance/wife.....but you cannot in good conscious involve yourself beyond that.
> 
> My parents (mainly my mom, but dad was in agreement) once did this with me.
> 
> I was seeing a girl for about 11 months.....it was just casual and fun for me, and I had no intentions of making this girl my wife....but we did spend a lot of time together, traveling and enjoying life.
> 
> I guess my parents thought I was a lot more serious about her than I actually was....and they couldn't stand the thought of me making what they thought was a huge mistake.
> 
> So one day when I was visiting my parents, they sat me down and basically told me every reason why they thought this girl was completely wrong for me (basically, a lot of the same red flags I saw and the reason why I never planned on making the R a serious commitment).
> 
> They said it was my life, but they would never agree with or support me marrying this girl.....and that if I chose to anyway, they would always be civil to her, but would refuse to involve themselves in any of the planning for the wedding or our future life at all.
> 
> I remember laughing and reassuring my parents that the girl and I were friends who enjoyed spending time with each other and sharing in life adventures, but I had NO intentions of trying to settle down with her.
> 
> They were very relieved. She was a real stunner, and I believe they thought (much like your son) that I was going to overlook all of her flaws/issues because of this fact.
> 
> I told them not to worry, they didn't raise an idiot....the girl's flaws would have made her a nightmare for a serious life partner, but she was a lot of fun to travel and party with.....and in truth, I think she saw the relationship the exact same way I did as well.
> 
> I was never upset at my parents about this at all.
> 
> I know they love me and always want what's best for me in their hearts...and this is what led them to broach what was a very uncomfortable topic for them.
> 
> And while it was a non-issue in that relationship, I feel good knowing that in the future my parents would do the same if they thought I was about to make a serious and life-damaging mistake.
> 
> A parent can't stay silent and watch their child self-destruct IMO....they have to share their thoughts and opinions.


Thanks for this post !!!


----------



## VeryHurt

Hope1964 said:


> My son is engaged right now, and if he was engaged to your son's fiance there is NO BLOODY WAY IN HELL I would be a) keeping my mouth shut, or b) paying for ANY of the wedding, let alone 70 freaking %!!


Well thank you Hope. Love you !!!! :wink2:


----------



## lucy999

VH, your son has outright asked you if he should marry this tramp. I get that you want to be PC. But now's not the time. let me ask you this: when, not if, his marriage implodes, will you be ok in how you dealt with his request? When his suffering becomes palpable, and it will, will you be at peace with how you've handled it? He is begging you to tell it to him straight. Yet you won't. You're a sensitive, deeply loving and caring person. Even more so as a mother. And that's a beautiful thing. Will you be ok when your son, in his heartache, asks you why you weren't firm in your opinion of his bride? will you have any regrets in the way you've handled this? He is CRAVING your direction. Yet you won't do it. Just because he's an adult now doesn't mean he doesn't need you. Hell, I'm 48 and I still seek out my mom's counsel. I want her to give it to me straight. And she does. 

This is NOT a dig at you. You know I respect you and want happiness and peace for you. But this all feels so tepid and switzerland-ish.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## turnera

VeryHurt said:


> Do I get him off the hook and decrease his stress or see what happens?


VH, do you know why/when people change? 

When staying in their bad situation becomes more painful than changing.

If you kiss their asses to let them off the hook to make things easier for him, guess what happens?

He sees - ONCE AGAIN - that the VH family (excepting the POS father) has a role to play: kiss ass, give up their wants and needs, and stop daring to expect to be treated decently.

It's all he's ever seen from you - it's what he KNOWS. It's what he's seen you do all your life. Seeing you do it - AGAIN - will do nothing more than solidify in his brain that he's worthless, a tool to be used, worthy of nothing.

How can he ever stand up for himself if he's never seen YOU do it?

Find your cajones, VH. SPEAK YOUR TRUTH. Show him you have found your strength and know how to protect yourself and your family. So that HE will know how to do it. If YOU don't do it, he'll never know how.


----------



## turnera

VeryHurt said:


> Not impressed.
> Rude.
> Not appreciated.


Well, VH, the truth of the matter is that many many many people here have tried to get you to find your strength and value yourself - and teach your son to value himself - but here you are, still doing almost NOTHING regarding your son. So forgive us for getting exasperated at tens of pages of advice - which you still haven't taken.

Maybe needing to hear 'rude' is what you need.


----------



## VeryHurt

I suppose the sh!t will hit the fan sometime tonight. 

I did not contact my son and visa versa the entire day.

He'll be at the beach for a 4-day weekend so I'm wondering if I'll even speak to him?

I am going to speak with him face-to-face on Tuesday, 
I absolutely cannot keep this inside any longer.

BUT 

What if I'm wrong?

What if he doesn't listen to me and he marries her? 
I am not fond of her and her mother is a lunatic!

What if the fiancee and her idiot mom team up against my son?

I did contact my attorney for Pre-Nup information but she hasn't gotten back to me.

I did mention that to him last evening and he said that he did not think he had to give her any money that he "brought into the marriage." 

He also said he "thought he would have to be married for a year before she could get anything."

I do not know the facts but I will look into the.

This is not how I envisioned the marriage to my only child. I am going through a divorce from hell, no partner to share the joy with and a future daughter -in-law that disrespects me and doesn't seem to to be madly in love with my son.

Well, two things will likely happen: 

My divorce will be final on the eve of his nuptials 
OR 
my divorce will be final and his engagement will be broken simultaneously.

We're gonna need a lot of therapy in this house or Zoloft or BOTH !!

This SUCKS !!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## 225985

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yes, all of this has been discussed and hammered out.


PBS, 

Postponement was suggested by several posters, and even VH mentioned it to M. Not hammered out IMO. 

VH, 

Is it time to bring this up again with M? The only mention made in this thread is fear that he might lose her. Would M be able to stomach a postponement better than an outright end? Maybe he needs to exit this stepwise.

What if the letter also mentioned postponement as another option available to M? Specifically a one-year PPM so that he gets back to the 2017 date he originally wanted.


----------



## lucy999

VeryHurt said:


> This is not how I envisioned the marriage to my only child. I am going through a divorce from hell, no partner to share the joy with and a future daughter -in-law that disrespects me and doesn't seem to to be madly in love with my son.


 well lookie here VH. I think you should say this to your son on tuesday.  



Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## Broken at 20

Veryhurt, I am the poster child (both because of my username/age, and past) for an OP in a very serious situation, ignoring the good advice posters here give. 
My situation was bad, and only got worse and worse. And as I was continually dealt a rotten hand in life; after going through the ringer in my parents divorce, then being disowned, and learning the man who raised me wasn't my father; I continued ignoring the advice I was being given, and let my personal life and situation get worse, and spiral further and further out of control. 

The reason I tell you the above, is so you don't let your situation get any worse than it already is!


Now, in my line of work, there is something I call the Brick Wall Drag Race. 
Clients that want to do something, that I can tell is an absolutely terrible idea (like setting up an irrevocable trust for their grandchildren, who I can tell after a 15 minute meeting are total losers) that they won't listen to reason about why it's a terrible idea. 
They are just so dead set on the end, they don't see the brick wall 10 feet behind the finish line. 


Your son is engaged to a woman. A woman that has poor money management skills, is immature, HAS CHEATED ON HIM, has a manipulative MIL, and by your own words, SHE DOESN'T GIVE A **** ABOUT HIM. 

But, unlike my clients (who I want to make money off of, so I don't bother to tell them it's a terrible idea), you can hopefully stop this. 

Your son has his foot on the gas, going 150 mph, heading for the finish line with that big, thick brick wall only 5 feet behind it, and is asking you for help. 
Yet you refuse to tell him to hit the brakes. 

You have two options at this point, and another 10 or 20 pages of discussing this isn't going to change that:
1. Tell him to stomp on the brakes (and hit EJECT on his current relationship)
2. Sit back, relax, grab some popcorn, and watch him smash into that brick wall with a big, fiery explosion.


----------



## CH

VeryHurt said:


> What if I'm wrong?
> 
> What if he doesn't listen to me and he marries her?
> I am not fond of her and her mother is a lunatic!
> 
> What if the fiancee and her idiot mom team up against my son?


Then your son will have to learn the hard way. Through life's lessons with a kick in the groin.

Oh to be young and think you know everything....You can't put a gun to his head and make him change his mind. Talk to him and let him make his decisions.

As for the pre-nup, take him along to talk to your attorney of what he could lose. Every state has different laws. Sometimes you just gotta let them make the mistake and hopefully they learn from it.


----------



## VeryHurt

CH said:


> Then your son will have to learn the hard way. Through life's lessons with a kick in the groin.
> 
> Oh to be young and think you know everything....You can't put a gun to his head and make him change his mind. Talk to him and let him make his decisions.
> 
> As for the pre-nup, take him along to talk to your attorney of what he could lose. Every state has different laws. Sometimes you just gotta let them make the mistake and hopefully they learn from it.


No, I meant what if I am wrong and she really does care and they would have been very happy?


----------



## turnera

Sounds like you talking about IB. "What if he's really a nice guy and just misunderstood?"

Gag me.


----------



## VeryHurt

Broken at 20 said:


> Veryhurt, I am the poster child (both because of my username/age, and past) for an OP in a very serious situation, ignoring the good advice posters here give.
> My situation was bad, and only got worse and worse. And as I was continually dealt a rotten hand in life; after going through the ringer in my parents divorce, then being disowned, and learning the man who raised me wasn't my father; I continued ignoring the advice I was being given, and let my personal life and situation get worse, and spiral further and further out of control.
> 
> The reason I tell you the above, is so you don't let your situation get any worse than it already is!
> 
> 
> Now, in my line of work, there is something I call the Brick Wall Drag Race.
> Clients that want to do something, that I can tell is an absolutely terrible idea (like setting up an irrevocable trust for their grandchildren, who I can tell after a 15 minute meeting are total losers) that they won't listen to reason about why it's a terrible idea.
> They are just so dead set on the end, they don't see the brick wall 10 feet behind the finish line.
> 
> 
> Your son is engaged to a woman. A woman that has poor money management skills, is immature, HAS CHEATED ON HIM, has a manipulative MIL, and by your own words, SHE DOESN'T GIVE A **** ABOUT HIM.
> 
> But, unlike my clients (who I want to make money off of, so I don't bother to tell them it's a terrible idea), you can hopefully stop this.
> 
> Your son has his foot on the gas, going 150 mph, heading for the finish line with that big, thick brick wall only 5 feet behind it, and is asking you for help.
> Yet you refuse to tell him to hit the brakes.
> 
> You have two options at this point, and another 10 or 20 pages of discussing this isn't going to change that:
> 1. Tell him to stomp on the brakes (and hit EJECT on his current relationship)
> 2. Sit back, relax, grab some popcorn, and watch him smash into that brick wall with a big, fiery explosion.


Yes, I WILL speak to him. I promise.
I could send him an E-mail but too many people have told me to talk to him face to face.
That can't happen until Tuesday.


----------



## Broken at 20

CH said:


> Then your son will have to learn the hard way. Through life's lessons with a kick in the groin.
> 
> Oh to be young and think you know everything....You can't put a gun to his head and make him change his mind. Talk to him and let him make his decisions.
> 
> As for the pre-nup, take him along to talk to your attorney of what he could lose. Every state has different laws. Sometimes you just gotta let them make the mistake and hopefully they learn from it.


That is also true. 

Just because you confront your son, doesn't mean he'll drop her. It just means you'll have told him how you feel, and hopefully, he'll listen. 
Just like I never listened to anyone here. Made a lot of mistakes because of it.


Secondly, Pre-nup:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like a date has already been set. 
Now, if a pre-nup is signed under duress (like springing it on her relatively soon after setting a date) or she doesn't get a lawyer to look it over (which judging from her money habits, I doubt she has $300 to hire a lawyer to read it over) she can challenge it in court and probably get it thrown out. 

Something else you might also want to warn your son about.


----------



## CH

VeryHurt said:


> No, I meant what if I am wrong and she really does care and they would have been very happy?


Could happen also, known some friends girls and guys who married supposedly the wrong person. Parents hated their guts (married young at 18-20, said they had no future and were going to ruin their kid's life.

15-20 years later, parent's are all gushing about how they're the best son/daughter in-law in the entire world and they (the parents) are so lucky.

But from what you've posted she's not wife material right now. I would tell my son to run also if I was in your shoes. Run, nothing I think I would kidnap my own son in this situation.

BTW, the reasons why they hated their kids soon to be wife/husband. Guy was either a gangster who never went to college or the girl was known to get around ALOT. But looks like they met the right person to turn their lives around, those parents raised good kids.


----------



## VeryHurt

blueinbr said:


> PBS,
> 
> Postponement was suggested by several posters, and even VH mentioned it to M. Not hammered out IMO.
> 
> VH,
> 
> Is it time to bring this up again with M? The only mention made in this thread is fear that he might lose her. Would M be able to stomach a postponement better than an outright end? Maybe he needs to exit this stepwise.
> 
> What if the letter also mentioned postponement as another option available to M? Specifically a one-year PPM so that he gets back to the 2017 date he originally wanted.


I have mentioned postponing the wedding many times. 
Could it be that all his friends and first cousins are getting married?
4 last year
5 this year
2 next year


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## VeryHurt

turnera said:


> Sounds like you talking about IB. "What if he's really a nice guy and just misunderstood?"
> 
> Gag me.


Gag me ............the first time I laughed all week !!! :laugh:


----------



## VeryHurt

Broken at 20 said:


> That is also true.
> 
> Just because you confront your son, doesn't mean he'll drop her. It just means you'll have told him how you feel, and hopefully, he'll listen.
> Just like I never listened to anyone here. Made a lot of mistakes because of it.
> 
> 
> Secondly, Pre-nup:
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like a date has already been set.
> Now, if a pre-nup is signed under duress (like springing it on her relatively soon after setting a date) or she doesn't get a lawyer to look it over (which judging from her money habits, I doubt she has $300 to hire a lawyer to read it over) she can challenge it in court and probably get it thrown out.
> 
> Something else you might also want to warn your son about.


Well B @ 20, keep the good news coming !!!!!
Are you serious? There could be a deadline?
The wedding is August 13th.
I wanna barf !!!
And you're right, she has no extra money, the boob job wiped her out!


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## Broken at 20

VeryHurt said:


> Well B @ 20, keep the good news coming !!!!!
> Are you serious? There could be a deadline?
> The wedding is August 13th.
> I wanna barf !!!
> And you're right, she has no extra money, the boob job wiped her out!


Again, I bring up the Brick Wall Drag Race. You should've said something before he was within sight of the finish line. 

And because this is law, deadline is subjective. 
Now, I would suggest getting it signed ASAP instead of saying August 12, at 11:59:59 p.m., "If you want to marry me, sign this document."

It might also help your son realize this woman is a waste of time if he tells her:
"Hey, I want you to sign a pre-nup, and you need your own lawyer to look it over."

And after the tears that women generally cry when confronted with a pre-nup (especially a girl like this), and hopefully he'll stay strong, if she says she can't afford a lawyer to read it over, HOPEFULLY he'll think "Wow...a grown woman in her mid 20's can't afford to pay a lawyer to read over a document?" 
*COUGH*yet she expected him to spend how much on a diamond mined by slaves in Africa?*COUGH*

And, hopefully he can come to a skidding halt before he face-plants that brick wall.


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## 225985

Let's hope she behaves herself at the bachorette party.


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## Broken at 20

blueinbr said:


> Let's hope she behaves herself at the bachorette party.


Judging from her past behavior, it might not be a bad idea to hire a PI to maybe...check in. 

If proof of infidelity can be found, and he can get her to sign a pre-nup, and write in various things, such as:
No alimony for a spouse of lower income if said spouse committed infidelity
Or...maybe...
The two are in what they consider to be a committed relationship as of 'such-and-such' date, and are monogamous to each other. Any offense of infidelity or fornication, such as, but not limited to, blah-blah-blah, add in some more legal mumbo-jumbo, then maybe at the end, slip in there: any act caught prior to the marriage allows the other to call off the marriage, and requires the offending spouse to repay the cost of the wedding to the damaged spouse. 

You will have to talk to an actual lawyer (I'm just a CPA wannabe candidate who recently had to pass the business law portion/tax portion of the exam) to see how much of any of that is possible. 
But one thing I've learned by talking to people I know in law school is that an awful lot can be put into a contract.


----------



## Catherine602

VH To convince your son to leave his fiancee, you will need to persuade him to take a dispassionate view of his relationship. This seems to be an impossible task since this attachment has formed over a number of years and is his way of life and the framework of his future plans. 

How do you stop someone you love from doing something that, in your view, will ruin their life. You can share your views with them but if they don't see things your way, then what? Ruination has levels of severity, the life threatening ones need to be stopped at all cost. 

The others should, IMO, be handled based on the nature of the deed and the influence that can be brought to bear on the situation. Marrying the wrong person has painful repercussions but a person can recover. 

I tell you this because I feel that, although you want to protect your son from pain, you cannot in this situation, IMO. More importantly, you have not failed him, even if you can't get him to be sensible. His bond to her is strong, even her infidelity did not make a dent in it. 

What can you say to him that will have more impact than the fact of her betrayal? Nothing. You should tell him what you feel without criticizing his fiancee or her mother. Say it clearly, persistently and repeatedly. There is a tiny chance he will hear. 

This is especially important for you because you may not have used your voice in the past to say what you feel. You also seem to feel you are responsible for making everything right in the lives of those you love. You can voice your concerns however, the outcome is out of your control and not your fault.


----------



## Broken at 20

By the way Veryhurt, something else you might be interested to know:

One of the many falling outs I had with my mother (who has since disowned me) was when the man who raised me, asked me to be his best man in his wedding after their divorce. 
I asked my mom what she wanted me to do. She never gave me a straight answer. 
And I did it. And she hated me for it, and that was when she really started to cut me out of her life. I was bitter with her, because she never told me what she wanted me to do. She never came out and said "No, I don't want this." 
Had she told me not to, I wouldn't have. 
But she never did. 

Will your son listen to you, and dump his fiance? Who knows. 
But don't let him smash into a brick wall going 200 mph without yelling "STOP" into his headset.


----------



## just got it 55

VeryHurt said:


> Thanks BL BUT I have to make a decision soon.
> Should I tell my son, don't make a fuss tonight, just let her frigging mother get the response cards OR do I see what happens?


JSG you and your POS IBRB are paying for the wedding no?

If that's the case just tell them all to KMA

55


----------



## tom67

This is a pro marriage web site I know but your son needs this from this Canadian. It's an intervention.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-vFS_VgKBI


----------



## Dyokemm

lucy999 said:


> VH, your son has outright asked you if he should marry this tramp. I get that you want to be PC. But now's not the time. let me ask you this: when, not if, his marriage implodes, will you be ok in how you dealt with his request? When his suffering becomes palpable, and it will, will you be at peace with how you've handled it? He is begging you to tell it to him straight. Yet you won't. You're a sensitive, deeply loving and caring person. Even more so as a mother. And that's a beautiful thing. Will you be ok when your son, in his heartache, asks you why you weren't firm in your opinion of his bride? will you have any regrets in the way you've handled this? He is CRAVING your direction. Yet you won't do it. Just because he's an adult now doesn't mean he doesn't need you. Hell, I'm 48 and I still seek out my mom's counsel. I want her to give it to me straight. And she does.
> 
> This is NOT a dig at you. You know I respect you and want happiness and peace for you. But this all feels so tepid and switzerland-ish.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


This is so true.

One of my friends years ago had a really nasty D from her cheating abusive H.

As the D was coming to an end, her parents, sisters, and several other family members all told her how they never liked the SOB....and thought she was making a mistake when they first married.

I remember her bitterly laughing about it when she told me about how her family was taking the D.

Her statement to me was that she felt like telling them, "Gee....thanks. Why in the h*ll didn't you say something back then?"

Would she have listened at the time?

Who knows?....She was in love at the time, so maybe she would have ignored it, or even been resentful.

But, they never gave her any reason to challenge her thoughts and desires at the time.

Maybe if they had spoken up, she would have really rethought her R and plans with the douche.

I think most people, if they hear a lot of doubt or warnings from close loved ones will at least pause and start to question why.....and that might be enough for them to realize the mistake they are about to make.


----------



## larry.gray

CH said:


> Could happen also, known some friends girls and guys who married supposedly the wrong person. Parents hated their guts (married young at 18-20, said they had no future and were going to ruin their kid's life.
> 
> 15-20 years later, parent's are all gushing about how they're the best son/daughter in-law in the entire world and they (the parents) are so lucky.
> 
> But from what you've posted she's not wife material right now. I would tell my son to run also if I was in your shoes. Run, nothing I think I would kidnap my own son in this situation.
> 
> BTW, the reasons why they hated their kids soon to be wife/husband. Guy was either a gangster who never went to college or the girl was known to get around ALOT. But looks like they met the right person to turn their lives around, those parents raised good kids.


I posted a few years back about a similar story. A young man that was a good friend to my eldest daughter went through something similar. He was dating a gal for a while. She told him she was 'saving herself for marrige' and the never DTD. They never broke up, and she cheated, giving her virginity to another guy. He dumped her, but she pined away for him. We were shocked when he took her back a year later.

Her dad was in and out of life growing up, and she eventually cut him out. Her mom is a toxic piece of crap. Her mom wanted to dominate the wedding, but the bride cut her out.

They are still married a few years later. She has totally changed. She says being around a functional family that treats her well was an awakening, and it made her want that type of relationship for her family.

I can't understand his.forgiveness. I couldn't do it. I also have doubts about her long term faithfulness. But they are happy now.


----------



## GusPolinski

larry.gray said:


> I posted a few years back about a similar story. A young man that was a good friend to my eldest daughter went through something similar. He was dating a gal for a while. She told him she was 'saving herself for marrige' and the never DTD. They never broke up, and she cheated, giving her virginity to another guy. He dumped her, but she pined away for him. We were shocked when he took her back a year later.
> 
> Her dad was in and out of life growing up, and she eventually cut him out. Her mom is a toxic piece of crap. Her mom wanted to dominate the wedding, but the bride cut her out.
> 
> They are still married a few years later. She has totally changed. She says being around a functional family that treats her well was an awakening, and it made her want that type of relationship for her family.
> 
> I can't understand his.forgiveness. I couldn't do it. I also have doubts about her long term faithfulness. But they are happy now.


Poor sucker.

He'll learn.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## VeryHurt

blueinbr said:


> Let's hope she behaves herself at the bachorette party.


Bachlorette party is over.


----------



## VeryHurt

just got it 55 said:


> JSG you and your POS IBRB are paying for the wedding no?
> 
> If that's the case just tell them all to KMA
> 
> 55


Hey 55 ~

The receptions is split 50/50

We are paying for band, photographer, videographer, florist, transportation, rehearsal dinner, breakfast the next morning, half of the bridal shower, invitations, stamps


----------



## 225985

Dyokemm said:


> Her statement to me was that she felt like telling them, "Gee....thanks. Why in the h*ll didn't you say something back then?"
> 
> Would she have listened at the time?
> 
> Who knows?....She was in love at the time, so maybe she would have ignored it, or even been resentful.
> 
> But, they never gave her any reason to challenge her thoughts and desires at the time.
> 
> Maybe if they had spoken up, she would have really rethought her R and plans with the douche.
> 
> *I think most people, if they hear a lot of doubt or warnings from close loved ones will at least pause and start to question why.....and that might be enough for them to realize the mistake they are about to make.*


IMO That was very helpful to share. VH needs to express her concerns about the marriage, even suggest/state she does not think the marriage should happen.

Now, I don't expect SON to listen. He will get married, but he will remember that conversation. 

She will push the boundaries. Maybe even cheat again. At some point he will call MOM and tell her that maybe she was right. That he should not have gotten married to HER. But that original discussion might give him the extra push, and courage, to end the marriage when things go bad.


----------



## larry.gray

GusPolinski said:


> Poor sucker.
> 
> He'll learn.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hope not. He was a couple of years older than my eldest. He was quite popular in HS. He bonded with my eldest and looked at her like a little sister that he defended fiercely. It made her life easier and I'll always think of him fondly and wish him the best.

I'm just not going to be schocked if it blows up on him.


----------



## Thor

VH, when you talk to him be sure he understands your perspective and why you're saying what you are. Don't let him assume anything. For example, you're getting divorced now. Be sure he understands you are not saying these things because you are pissed off at your stbxh. Give him concrete reasons for what you are saying.

My dad kept some secrets from all of us about his earlier life prior to my mom, including a child and brief previous marriage. Apparently she was a gold-digger, as my dad's father had a lot of money and was a somewhat well known person. When he started bad mouthing every girl I dated, I assumed it was due to his less than perfect marriage to my mom. Anyhow, had I known of his history I would have been much better able to take away a completely different lesson from his comments and attitudes. I would have been much better off in many ways had I understood his reasons for saying what he did.


----------



## honcho

larry.gray said:


> Her mom is a toxic piece of crap. Her mom wanted to dominate the wedding, but the bride cut her out.


My crazy ex mom wanted to dictate every aspect of our wedding. First it was the fight over the wedding dress, her mom kept insisting on the "ugly" one which lead to weeks of bickering and fighting. Next was bridesmaid dresses because they didn't like what me ex picked out claiming it made her sister look fat. Mind you her sister weighed close to 300lb...it wasn't the dress. 

Her mom kept trying to use money to control the wedding I eventually told them I would just pay for it all. Then her mom announced the entire family would boycott the wedding. A week before the wedding I played peacemaker as best I could so her family did show up.

They all sat far off in the corner and pouted, her father wasn't allowed to walk her down the aisle because the ice queen mom had forbidden it. The reception was no better.

Silly me at the time I figured if we could survive to actually get married we could handle any problem being married.


----------



## turnera

It was my dad's wife who ruined my wedding. She literally kicked my best friend out of the dressing room because only SHE could properly put on my makeup and get me ready. I'm still pissed that I was so weak that I let her do that. And then at the reception at our house, some of our coworkers knocked on the door, and she opened it, and yelled 'there's some black people at the door' and shut the door in their faces. Sheesh.


----------



## vi_bride04

VH you will be doing your son no favors if you keep your mouth shut. There is nothing wrong with you expressing yourself... You seem to not want to do that if it might upset someone.

Start taking back some control and express yourself! Even if they don't listen you got it off of your chest and told the truth.

Keeping the truth to yourself and not saying anything is lying by omission, IMO. You are being dishonest with your son, but most importantly with yourself.


----------



## lisamaree

I just read this whole thread. Phew...

My question is why won't you tell your son your honest opinion about his impending marriage? Do you doubt your feelings because of your failed marriage?

"What if I'm wrong?" YOU AREN'T. This girl is no good for your son.

If he were my son I would tell him to RUN. It isn't like he hasn't asked you at least a couple of times for your input. Do you think part of him is afraid you will be disappointed in him if he doesn't go through with the wedding? 

Stop trying to drop hints and be straight up with him. Tell him you will support him in whatever his choice but you are strongly strongly encouraging him NOT TO MARRY HER.

Would it be better for them to marry, work hard and drop money on a house, debt, have a couple of kids -- and then she does the same thing again and it is all destroyed? How will you feel if you never voice your opinion now, when you look back and think maybe you could have saved your son this heartbreak?

Tell your son his heart might ache now if he loses her, but imagine how much it will break when he loses her, his home, his kids, etc.??????

Once a cheater always a cheater is usually true. And he will never trust her again. Does he want that burden? Oh yeah she might be beautiful but when she's older, has a few kids, doesn't have her looks anymore - what is she? An ugly, cold woman (inside). 

We have to remember this girl is a home wrecker. She didn't just sleep with another guy she found who was single, etc. She was knowingly sleeping with an engaged man WHO HAD A BABY. She has no respect for marriage.


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## VeryHurt

Update:

I spent most of this past Friday talking to my son in person at the beach. 

I DID tell him that his fiancee is a nice person but she is NOT the right person for HIM.

I told him they ALREADY have financial issues (she spends like crazy), trust issues, in-law problems and they are NOT emotionally compatible. 

I told him that I don't envision a long happy union between them.

Apparently, a few of his buddies have also voiced there concern over their marriage.

He just told me tonight he and his fiancee spoke all weekend about his concerns and their marriage. He said the "wedding is ON and he does NOT want to hear another word about it."

I just said, "Look into a Pre-Nup."

So, there you go. 
I tried. 
I was direct.
I'm done.

VH


----------



## GusPolinski

Oh well.

At least you won't have to hear him whining a whole bunch of "Why didn't you say something...?" crap once it all implodes on him.

What a chump.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lisamaree

He doesn't want to hear another word about it because she buttered him up over the weekend. No problem. He'll be back, because this won't last long.


----------



## FeministInPink

She has him completely brainwashed. Everyone is telling him this is a bad idea, and he still wants to go through with it. Something is VERY wrong with this picture.

I'm really glad you said your piece, even if it didn't get through to him. I don't think anyone can get through to him at this point.

If it wouldn't totally ruin your relationship with your son, I would tell you to refuse to pay for anything for the wedding.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## VeryHurt

Believe me, I am not happy. 

I was face-to-face, made valid points and did not hold back.

I will not extend myself anymore emotionally or financially.

Yes, she has him by his balls.

Yes, he has NO self-confidence.

Yes, it is a BIG mistake.

Yes, he is a chump.

Yes, I cannot see this lasting.

My gut tells me after one baby, they will divorce and my poor grandchild will have an unstable childhood.

Thank God MY Mom is not alive to see this.

VH


----------



## Satya

VH, you did your best by stating your concerns. You did well. 

He gave his answer. 

Now you should respect his wishes and leave him to manage his affairs in this regard. 

I know it'll be hard to watch in the background, but he has to assume the responsibility for his choices. 

Sometimes we want something so bad, we ignore all reason around us.


----------



## Catherine602

I hope he is sensible enough to keep the conversation between you two only. If he tells his fiancee, she will tell the in-laws. If future MIL is difficult now, you can imagine what she will be if she knows what you think of the nuptials. 

Can you follow up you frank discussion with a final word ASAP? It is in his best interest to never even hint at what you shared with him. He will bear the brunt of the resulting anger and turmoil if he blabs.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

So sorry VH. Sure was hoping for different. At least there won't be a regret of silence. All you will here later is "you tried to warn me".... I hope its sooner than later.


----------



## Broken at 20

VeryHurt said:


> Update:
> 
> I spent most of this past Friday talking to my son in person at the beach.
> 
> *I DID tell him that his fiancee is a nice person but she is NOT the right person for HIM.*
> 
> I told him they ALREADY have financial issues (she spends like crazy), trust issues, in-law problems and they are NOT emotionally compatible. Did you bring up the fact that she cheated on him, and that you don't think this woman cares about him all that much? Or did you try and spare him hearing that?
> 
> I told him that I don't envision a long happy union between them.
> 
> *Apparently, a few of his buddies have also voiced there concern over their marriage.*
> 
> He just told me tonight he and his fiancee spoke all weekend about his concerns and their marriage. He said the "wedding is ON and he does NOT want to hear another word about it."
> 
> I just said, "Look into a Pre-Nup."
> 
> So, there you go.
> I tried.
> I was direct.
> I'm done.
> 
> VH


Well, at least you finally told him to stop. You finally yelled at him to put on the brakes. 

But...


----------



## turnera

VH, here's what matters:

You told him not to go through with it. He heard you. And in 5 or 10 or 15 years when his misery hits an all-time high, he'll remember. He'll remember that you tried to warn him. And he'll find his way back to you. BECAUSE you told him (kind of) the truth.


----------



## VeryHurt

GusPolinski said:


> Oh well.
> 
> At least you won't have to hear him whining a whole bunch of "Why didn't you say something...?" crap once it all implodes on him.
> 
> What a chump.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Gus ~

I am glad I did say something. 

I agree, this will crash one of these days.

VH


----------



## threelittlestars

Hey, VH i know it hurts. 

Friends and family have warned him but he is choosing her. Im so sorry. 

For what its worth you get yourself together and don't act nice, just be that way and accept your sons choice. Be there when it falls apart, and just be there. That is all you can do at this point.


----------



## Hope1964

I sure hope he comes to his senses before they have any kids  That's what I am going to hope for.

Hey, maybe you could set her up or something? Like, provide an irresistible good looking guy to flirt with her and seduce her, and arrange it so your son catches them in 'the act'??? Huh? HUH? Could ya??


----------



## lucy999

Ya done good VH. I know it was hard to do but you summoned the strength to do it. Cyber knuckle bump to you! Frankly I didn't have a doubt he'd still go through with it. But you've said your piece. Good on you.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## Broken at 20

Hope1964 said:


> I sure hope he comes to his senses before they have any kids  That's what I am going to hope for.
> 
> Hey, maybe you could set her up or something? Like, provide an irresistible good looking guy to flirt with her and seduce her, and arrange it so your son catches them in 'the act'??? Huh? HUH? Could ya??


Average price of a male escort: 50-180 British pounds, so that's about $75-$250/hour in the US

x 4-5 hours of being in a bar, to find this chick, and then put the moves on her, and get her in bed, $300-$1250 (maybe even less if she is a really loose girl, which guessing from her history, she is)

+ $250 for covering the cost of drinks said escort will have to buy for himself and her in the bar in the 'get-to-know-you' stage

Hiring a PI to investigate and provide photo proof? $40-$100 hr operating on the same time-table as the male escort, 4-5 hours, $160-$500

Two boxes of tissues for when you show your son the photos of his wonderful fiance with said escort? $5.50 tax included (depending on state)

Her face when he shows her the photos and she realizes she's been busted and the wedding is off? 
PRICELESS!!!


----------



## niceguy28

VeryHurt said:


> Update:
> 
> I spent most of this past Friday talking to my son in person at the beach.
> 
> I DID tell him that his fiancee is a nice person but she is NOT the right person for HIM.
> 
> I told him they ALREADY have financial issues (she spends like crazy), trust issues, in-law problems and they are NOT emotionally compatible.
> 
> I told him that I don't envision a long happy union between them.
> 
> Apparently, a few of his buddies have also voiced there concern over their marriage.
> 
> He just told me tonight he and his fiancee spoke all weekend about his concerns and their marriage. He said the "wedding is ON and he does NOT want to hear another word about it."
> 
> I just said, "Look into a Pre-Nup."
> 
> So, there you go.
> I tried.
> I was direct.
> I'm done.
> 
> VH


You've done all that you can do and he does deserve to be left alone about his terrible decision. There is absolutely no use in you bringing this up again. It will only make matters worse. He chose to jump on a train that is going to crash so he has to deal with the consequences. This is no longer your problem. If I were you I would go to the wedding, smile, and act like nothing is wrong. You don't ever have to accept her as your DIL if you don't want to. All you need to do is be cordial and avoid having any conflicts with her. She's not worth it.


----------



## VeryHurt

niceguy28 said:


> You've done all that you can do and he does deserve to be left alone about his terrible decision. There is absolutely no use in you bringing this up again. It will only make matters worse. He chose to jump on a train that is going to crash so he has to deal with the consequences. This is no longer your problem. If I were you I would go to the wedding, smile, and act like nothing is wrong. You don't ever have to accept her as your DIL if you don't want to. All you need to do is be cordial and avoid having any conflicts with her. She's not worth it.


Thanks Nice Guy ~

I always hoped that I would have a great daughter-in-law as I only have one child. 

I wanted to have a "second" child aka daughter-in-law.

She knows that I know I'm onto her. 

She tries to talk crap about me to my son. 

She has lied to him about me. 

He also knows that she is causing trouble between us.

He is NOT a mama's boy whatsoever but he will not tolerate anyone giving me a hard time.

VH


----------



## niceguy28

VeryHurt said:


> Thanks Nice Guy ~
> 
> I always hoped that I would have a great daughter-in-law as I only have one child.
> 
> I wanted to have a "second" child aka daughter-in-law.
> 
> She knows that I know I'm onto her.
> 
> She tries to talk crap about me to my son.
> 
> She has lied to him about me.
> 
> He also knows that she is causing trouble between us.
> 
> He is NOT a mama's boy whatsoever but he will not tolerate anyone giving me a hard time.
> 
> VH


 Yea this is going to be tough but I would seriously recommend you ignore the past with her and focus on your relationship with your son. If you and this woman are constantly going at it then it will make his life 10 times worse. He's already setting himself up for a big fall so why make things worse. As for talking crap, a lot of women talk crap about their MIL to their husbands. That's not unique to her and MIL/DIL issues have been around for millenia. She's no good and if you take a step back and kill her with kindness your son will better see what kind of person she is.


----------



## larry.gray

VeryHurt said:


> My gut tells me after one baby, they will divorce and my poor grandchild will have an unstable childhood.
> 
> Thank God MY Mom is not alive to see this.
> 
> VH


Look at the bright side. She will get pregnant, but it may not be your grandchild.

(I'm a bad man....)


----------



## Catherine602

VeryHurt said:


> Thanks Nice Guy ~
> 
> I always hoped that I would have a great daughter-in-law as I only have one child.
> 
> I wanted to have a "second" child aka daughter-in-law.
> 
> She knows that I know I'm onto her.
> 
> She tries to talk crap about me to my son.
> 
> She has lied to him about me.
> 
> He also knows that she is causing trouble between us.
> 
> He is NOT a mama's boy whatsoever but he will not tolerate anyone giving me a hard time.
> 
> VH


The best thing you can do is to accept her as she is and welcome her as your DIL. There are advantages to giving up a desire to convince your son to make another choice. 

You can relax because you are not in control or responsible for the outcome. Enjoy what you can in the union and keep the lines of communication open with your son. 

I would tell him that you fully support him and his STBW and you intend to do everything you can to make a good relationship with her and her family. 

Don't be drawn into conflict and don't show your true feeling. Don't let anyone disrespect you but don't be baited into a fight.

You want to build a relationship where they will feel comfortable visiting you with the grandchildren and inviting you over to visit them. This will take time. You don't want to be isolated because you don't get along with her or the in-laws. 

Your son will naturally side with his STBW when it comes to how much their family sees you. Holiday celebrations, birthdays, wedding anniversaries etc, those are the events that you want to enjoy with them, right? It is the smart move to build bridges now.


----------



## Broken at 20

larry.gray said:


> Look at the bright side. She will get pregnant, but it may not be your grandchild.
> 
> (I'm a bad man....)


Well, on a happy side, we all know and have several examples of how a woman who cuckolds her husband, and how the marriage doesn't fall apart, and how the kid grows up normally and not angry or apathetic or hateful towards everyone around him...
Oh wait.....


On the more practical note:
Have your son paternity test his 'kids' within 6 months. States don't care about paternity fraud because paternity fraud = less welfare. 
So unless you want your son gambling with these, I wouldn't risk it.


----------



## MyRevelation

VeryHurt said:


> Thanks Nice Guy ~
> 
> I always hoped that I would have a great daughter-in-law as I only have one child.
> 
> I wanted to have a "second" child aka daughter-in-law.
> 
> She knows that I know I'm onto her.
> 
> She tries to talk crap about me to my son.
> 
> She has lied to him about me.
> 
> He also knows that she is causing trouble between us.
> 
> He is NOT a mama's boy whatsoever but he will not tolerate anyone giving me a hard time.
> 
> VH


Unfortunately, I have some insight into what you are experiencing. I had a very similar "TALK" with my son about 4 years ago.

He had started dating a very immature girl that seemed to have all the bad qualities of his mother (my XW). Fast forward 4 years, and they've now been M'd for almost 2 years. As soon as the ring was on her finger, she started pressuring him to buy a house, and he did. She was still in school, chasing a worthless degree in horticulture, and sure enough, a few months before graduation, SURPRISE, she's pregnant and now won't be able to look for a job.

It's awkward ... she knows how we feel about her. I attended the wedding and a few functions a year where I have to interact with her and her family, where I put on a semi-happy face and endure it. The good thing is I've maintained a solid relationship with my son and I'm crazy over my grandson, but I know deep down, that it won't work long term. He will get tired of her immaturity, neediness, laziness, etc. just like I did his mother, and she will use my grandson as a pawn to manipulate him as much as he'll allow. It simply is what it is.

Just like you, I had the "TALK" and have never brought it up again, but I can tell my son is seeing her more clearly and is likely reflecting often on our "TALK".

All I can do in empathize with you. I know how you want to peel the rose colored haze from his eyes, and maybe you'll have more success than I did and he can avoid marrying and then being anchored to the wrong person.

Good Luck and strength to you.


----------



## VeryHurt

Update:

My son told me the marriage is on and he "does not want to hear another word about it from me or anyone."

I mentioned a pre-nup and while I was at my attorney's office yesterday, she recommended 3 attorneys who deal with pre-nups.

He looked me and said, "I don't need this right now" and he walked away.

So, there you go.


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## MyRevelation

VH,

As a former know-it-all young man, I understand your son's reactions. I've now experienced the same phenomenon as the son and now the father. 

I remember at about 30 years old having a heart to heart with my Dad, where I told him "It's amazing how much smarter you've gotten in the last 10 years. 10 years ago you were the dumbest man I knew" and he just nodded and smiled. At 55, I now view him as the BEST man I've ever known.

My son is now 31, and I'm hoping he experiences the same type of revelation some day. Wisdom comes slowly for some of us guys, but the type of wisdom gained from the "School of Hard Knocks" lasts a lifetime and we usually learn from it and don't make the same mistakes twice.


----------



## GusPolinski

larry.gray said:


> Look at the bright side. She will get pregnant, but it may not be your grandchild.
> 
> (I'm a bad man....)


 @VeryHurt, the first time they drop each of their kids off w/ you, take cheek swabs.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

VeryHurt said:


> I mentioned a pre-nup and while I was at my attorney's office yesterday, she recommended 3 attorneys who deal with pre-nups.
> 
> He looked me and said, "I don't need this right now" and he walked away.
> 
> So, there you go.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]


Your son is a fool...especially with her history.

I almost recommend that you tell him that he is putting his inheritance at risk. 

He absolutely needs a prenup. He is going into this as the one most exposed. 

And FTR, they are quite common nowadays. It is not a big deal. 

Not to mention that if the future DIL refuses to sign...I think that speaks volumes about her character.


----------



## GusPolinski

Broken at 20 said:


> Well, on a happy side, we all know and have several examples of how a woman who cuckolds her husband, and how the marriage doesn't fall apart, and how the kid grows up normally and not angry or apathetic or hateful towards everyone around him...
> Oh wait.....
> 
> 
> On the more practical note:
> Have your son paternity test his 'kids' within 6 months. States don't care about paternity fraud because paternity fraud = less welfare.
> So unless you want your son gambling with these, I wouldn't risk it.


This might be changing. I recall reading not long ago that (due to a change in legislation), here in TX, paternity can be legitimately challenged at any point after birth, regardless of the age of the child.

Not sure if that's true or not, but I sure hope it is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Broken at 20

VeryHurt said:


> Update:
> 
> My son told me the marriage is on and he "does not want to hear another word about it from me or anyone."
> 
> *I mentioned a pre-nup and while I was at my attorney's office yesterday, she recommended 3 attorneys who deal with pre-nups.
> 
> He looked me and said, "I don't need this right now" and he walked away.
> *
> So, there you go.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Well, let him go and be there if he possibly fails. Do not I REPEAT do not let him walk all over you. He made his bed and if things go sideways do not let him use you, your husband or your failed marriage as a crutch for his own well INFORMED choice.


----------



## LosingHim

I WISH someone would have warned me about my first marriage. We were together 10 years, but only married about 2.5 before I left. Within 6 months of leaving, I had probably 30 people say things like “we always thought he was a jerk”, “we always wondered why you got married”, “we talked at the wedding about how long this was going to last”, “you guys weren’t compatible”. Thanks for the warning guys.  

Please do not get me wrong, I would not trade my children for the world. But I really wish I never would have had kids with him. My daughter was 4 and my son was almost 1 when I left him. I left him 11 years ago last month. It has been 11 years of hell with 6 more to go until my youngest with him turns 18. All said and done, I will have dealt with his horrible crap for 17 years by the time I can say that both children are “adults” and that I don’t have to ever speak to him again. But even then, at some point my kids are going to get married, have kids, their kids will have birthday parties, etc. I will have to deal with this pathetic excuse of a man until the day that I die. 

Your son has made his choice and there is nothing to do but let him move forward with it. There may very well be a time when you would have the opportunity to say “I told you so”, but of course you wouldn’t actually SAY that. You’ll just have to stand by and watch the pain you tried to warn him about. I pray that he has a much better marriage and life than I have had with my ex.


----------



## karole

Some folks just have to learn life lessons the hard way, unfortunately.


----------



## threelittlestars

Very hurt.... I know this is not GREAT advice emotionally for the relationship but it is wise. I think you should re write in the will NO inheritance unless there is a pre nup. SERIOUSLY. Tell him its what a mother does, protect their child. its not that you forbid the marriage, just that he gets no cashola unless there is one.


----------



## lucy999

LosingHim said:


> I WISH someone would have warned me about my first marriage. We were together 10 years, but only married about 2.5 before I left. Within 6 months of leaving, I had probably 30 people say things like “we always thought he was a jerk”, “we always wondered why you got married”, “we talked at the wedding about how long this was going to last”, “you guys weren’t compatible”. Thanks for the warning guys.


But would you have listened to the warnings? Or would you have gone through with the marriage regardless?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

karole said:


> Some folks just have to learn life lessons the hard way, unfortunately.


Yep, the stories I could tell. The best thing my parents have ever done was let me fall flat on my a$$, in the face of my own ignorance.


----------



## Satya

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yep, the stories I could tell. The best thing my parents have ever done was let me fall flat on my a$$, in the face of my own ignorance.


I second this thought.


----------



## LosingHim

lucy999 said:


> But would you have listened to the warnings? Or would you have gone through with the marriage regardless?


Who knows? We got married 15 years ago, I was 23, we had a child. 

I had left him once, but wasn't strong enough to stay away. I didn't WANT to be with him. Had I not gotten pregnant with my daughter when we got back together, I probably never would have married him and maybe I would've left much sooner. Hard to tell in hindsight.

But maybe if someone would have REALLY sat me down and talked to me, just maybe I would have walked long before he put me in the hospital. 

But at the same time, I wouldn't have my 2 oldest children. It's hard to say now what would've been the better path.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

VeryHurt said:


> Update:
> 
> My son told me the marriage is on and he "does not want to hear another word about it from me or anyone."
> 
> I mentioned a pre-nup and while I was at my attorney's office yesterday, she recommended 3 attorneys who deal with pre-nups.
> 
> He looked me and said, "I don't need this right now" and he walked away.
> 
> So, there you go.


So what good will a post nup do him

WTF

Oh well JSG you did your parental duty trying to protect him

We live and hopefully we learn

55

ETA: support your son's marriage now and start fresh with your future DIL

ignore the noise from your son's future MIL


----------



## VeryHurt

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Well, let him go and be there if he possibly fails. Do not I REPEAT do not let him walk all over you. He made his bed and if things go sideways do not let him use you, your husband or your failed marriage as a crutch for his own well INFORMED choice.


Great advice.
Thank you.
VH


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

Is there any chance you could get someone who has had good experience with pre-marital counselling (as a way of strengthening the relationship,...) to encourage him to take up pre-marital counselling?

Best wishes!


----------



## MattMatt

LosingHim said:


> I WISH someone would have warned me about my first marriage. We were together 10 years, but only married about 2.5 before I left. Within 6 months of leaving, I had probably 30 people say things like “we always thought he was a jerk”, “we always wondered why you got married”, “we talked at the wedding about how long this was going to last”, “you guys weren’t compatible”. Thanks for the warning guys.
> 
> Please do not get me wrong, I would not trade my children for the world. But I really wish I never would have had kids with him. My daughter was 4 and my son was almost 1 when I left him. I left him 11 years ago last month. It has been 11 years of hell with 6 more to go until my youngest with him turns 18. All said and done, I will have dealt with his horrible crap for 17 years by the time I can say that both children are “adults” and that I don’t have to ever speak to him again. But even then, at some point my kids are going to get married, have kids, their kids will have birthday parties, etc. I will have to deal with this pathetic excuse of a man until the day that I die.
> 
> Your son has made his choice and there is nothing to do but let him move forward with it. There may very well be a time when you would have the opportunity to say “I told you so”, but of course you wouldn’t actually SAY that. You’ll just have to stand by and watch the pain you tried to warn him about. I pray that he has a much better marriage and life than I have had with my ex.


Hindsight. Always 20/20. Never wrong. 

Of course they knew he was a wrong Un! After.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I would be tempting to withdraw paying for this wedding.


----------



## larry.gray

GusPolinski said:


> This might be changing. I recall reading not long ago that (due to a change in legislation), here in TX, paternity can be legitimately challenged at any point after birth, regardless of the age of the child.
> 
> Not sure if that's true or not, but I sure hope it is.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I suspect it is true. I heard a guest on a radio show say 47 states have now modified their laws to allow a DNA test to overturn presumed paternity. He didn't say which ones though.

I do know Oregon allows it at any age.


----------



## GusPolinski

larry.gray said:


> I suspect it is true. I heard a guest on a radio show say 47 states have now modified their laws to allow a DNA test to overturn presumed paternity. He didn't say which ones though.
> 
> I do know Oregon allows it at any age.


Oregon?

Damn.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## larry.gray

GusPolinski said:


> Oregon?
> 
> Damn.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, it's where I live.

Huge change. Originally a husband was the legal father with no recourse. An unmarried man had six weeks to contest. After that he's on the hook for 26 years with no recourse. (26 years because child support continues if the kid goes to college.)

Now it can be contested at any point by the named father or mother. Another man can't contest without one parent agreeing .


----------



## VeryHurt

Blossom Leigh said:


> I would be tempting to withdraw paying for this wedding.


BL ~

I am getting to that point. It is getting out of control.

The expenses are horrible.

My son just called me and he wants to add another couple to the list.

Do you know they are renting 3 coach buses to transport guests from the church to the reception, which is 50 miles away. Too many drinkers.

I am livid.

I personally am paying 1/3 of this since I will be divorced:

1/3 her parents
1/3 IBRB
1/3 VH


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

HobbesTheTiger said:


> Is there any chance you could get someone who has had good experience with pre-marital counselling (as a way of strengthening the relationship,...) to encourage him to take up pre-marital counselling?
> 
> Best wishes!


He was going to counseling when we last asked and it didn't help on this issue. The more she has written, the more he seems like on of those "I'll prove you wrong" types who don't understand that thinking isn't always a positive.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

VeryHurt said:


> BL ~
> 
> I am getting to that point. It is getting out of control.
> 
> The expenses are horrible.
> 
> My son just called me and he wants to add another couple to the list.
> 
> Do you know they are renting 3 coach buses to transport guests from the church to the reception, which is 50 miles away. Too many drinkers.
> 
> I am livid.
> 
> I personally am paying 1/3 of this since I will be divorced:
> 
> 1/3 her parents
> 1/3 IBRB
> 1/3 VH



If you backed out, it would rock the apple cart and I think you would see bridezilla come out and I see that as a good thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## VeryHurt

Openminded said:


> Like you, my son is my only child. Like you, I looked forward to adding a daughter when my son married. I did have that for a few years after the wedding and then she finally dropped the act and I got to see the real her. Not pretty.
> 
> Fifteen years after they were married she walked out. During those years she did a great deal of damage to my son and my grandchildren. And to my relationship with all of them. Those were extremely trying years and I wish she had ended it long before she did (my son never would have -- despite all the damage she did).
> 
> Be prepared for anything and that way you won't be caught off guard like I was.


Open ~

Oh, I hope my son has bigger balls than the POS IBRB to get rid of her if things begin to break down.

The difference is she HAS shown me her true colors already and I am on to her.

Are things okay with you and your grand kids now?

Is your son happier?

VH


----------



## VeryHurt

phillybeffandswiss said:


> He was going to counseling when we last asked and it didn't help on this issue. The more she has written, the more he seems like on of those "I'll prove you wrong" types who don't understand that thinking isn't always a positive.


They go to see the Psychiatrist twice a month.


----------



## GusPolinski

VeryHurt said:


> BL ~
> 
> I am getting to that point. It is getting out of control.
> 
> The expenses are horrible.
> 
> My son just called me and he wants to add another couple to the list.
> 
> Do you know they are renting 3 coach buses to transport guests from the church to the reception, which is 50 miles away. Too many drinkers.
> 
> I am livid.
> 
> I personally am paying 1/3 of this since I will be divorced:
> 
> 1/3 her parents
> 1/3 IBRB
> 1/3 VH


F*ck that noise.

He's what, 30? And w/ a solid job?

Let him pay for his own damn train wreck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Openminded

VeryHurt said:


> Open ~
> 
> Oh, I hope my son has bigger balls than the POS IBRB to get rid of her if things begin to break down.
> 
> The difference is she HAS shown me her true colors already and I am on to her.
> 
> Are things okay with you and your grand kids now?
> 
> Is your son happier?
> 
> VH


My son is much happier and wonders why he didn't get out instead of waiting for her to end it. Our relationship is much better than it was during the years he was with her and that's true for my grandchildren as well. 

The problem is when people marry -- if they take their vows seriously -- they are often reluctant to end it. Even when they really, really, really should. I hope your son doesn't get caught in the trap as mine did. It's very difficult to watch.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

VeryHurt said:


> BL ~
> 
> I am getting to that point. It is getting out of control.
> 
> The expenses are horrible.
> 
> My son just called me and he wants to add another couple to the list.
> 
> Do you know they are renting 3 coach buses to transport guests from the church to the reception, which is 50 miles away. Too many drinkers.
> 
> I am livid.
> 
> I personally am paying 1/3 of this since I will be divorced:
> 
> 1/3 her parents
> 1/3 IBRB
> 1/3 VH


 What happened to the bride's family pays for the wedding? In this case, especially,it would be quite appropriate.


----------



## alte Dame

It's sad, but at his age, you can't make his decisions for him. You just get to watch with your heart in your throat and then be there for him if it goes sideways later.

I will say, though, VH, if he's old enough to make this momentous decision without your input - which he is, imo - then he is old enough to tailor the wedding to what he and his bride can afford. I see no reason for you to be footing any large bills out of obligation. What you decide to pay for should be your gift to them, willingly offered.


----------



## turnera

The problem is, VH will never be able to say that to her son. She's too terrified he will 'leave' her like his dad did.


----------



## GusPolinski

Rubix Cubed said:


> What happened to the bride's family pays for the wedding? In this case, especially,it would be quite appropriate.


That's a lousy tradition, IMO, and it needs to go away.

Let the burden fall to the bride and groom. Parents can certainly help, but it shouldn't be expected.

Especially not at 30+.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

GusPolinski said:


> That's a lousy tradition, IMO, and it needs to go away.
> 
> Let the burden fall to the bride and groom. Parents can certainly help, but it shouldn't be expected.
> 
> Especially not at 30+.


 I agree, let's make sure we get this tradition 86'ed before my daughter gets married.


----------



## GusPolinski

Rubix Cubed said:


> I agree, let's make sure we get this tradition 86'ed before my daughter gets married.


:lol: :rofl:


----------



## Catherine602

threelittlestars said:


> Very hurt.... I know this is not GREAT advice emotionally for the relationship but it is wise. I think you should re write in the will NO inheritance unless there is a pre nup. SERIOUSLY. Tell him its what a mother does, protect their child. its not that you forbid the marriage, just that he gets no cashola unless there is one.


I think you should carefully consider the consequences of everything you do in your relationship with your son, his STBW and his MIL. 

When I face a difficult situations, I ask myself what are my ultimate goals, what do I want as a final outcome. Thinking that way makes it easier to avoid making emotionally driven decisions that I may later regret. 

Think of how you want your relationship to be with your son, DIL and grandchildren in the future. What you do now will form the basis of those relationships. 

You can put him out of your will, refuse to accept that he will marry, refuse to get along with his STBW, and refuse work on a mutually respectful relationship with his MIL. But why, what do you gain?

He is adamant that he will marry and does not want any further objections. You have to accept that. Move into a stage of forming the basis for your relationship with a son who is also a husband and eventually a father. Your relationship will change because his priorities and responsibilities will change. 

The inheritance - there are ways of transferring wealth that keeps it out of any joint asset arrangement in the event of a D. If you cut him out, who will benefit from your hard earned money?


----------



## Broken at 20

VH, you brought up how his friends don't like this girl. 


Now I feel safe to assume that your son's friends are good friends (i.e. friends that wouldn't shaft him over for something, like this girl) They have already told him they think this marriage is a bad idea, but he ignored them. 

I don't know if this will work, but maybe you could recruit his friends to help you? Have them all over to your house and tell them you think this marriage is a terrible idea and ask for help on getting your son to change his mind? They'll probably agree with you since they already told him they don't think this marriage is a good idea. 
Trade information, collaborate, collude...
I'm sure you know things they don't. And they know things you don't. Maybe from there, both his friends and you could subtly plant some doubts in his mind. And subtly drop hints about how this is all a terrible idea? 

May or may not work. But might as well go out with all guns blazing instead of just letting your son ruin his life like an idiot.


----------



## VeryHurt

Broken at 20 said:


> VH, you brought up how his friends don't like this girl.
> 
> 
> Now I feel safe to assume that your son's friends are good friends (i.e. friends that wouldn't shaft him over for something, like this girl) They have already told him they think this marriage is a bad idea, but he ignored them.
> 
> I don't know if this will work, but maybe you could recruit his friends to help you? Have them all over to your house and tell them you think this marriage is a terrible idea and ask for help on getting your son to change his mind? They'll probably agree with you since they already told him they don't think this marriage is a good idea.
> Trade information, collaborate, collude...
> I'm sure you know things they don't. And they know things you don't. Maybe from there, both his friends and you could subtly plant some doubts in his mind. And subtly drop hints about how this is all a terrible idea?
> 
> May or may not work. But might as well go out with all guns blazing instead of just letting your son ruin his life like an idiot.


B @ 20 ~
At this point, my son does NOT want to hear another word from anyone. I did all I could and I have gone on record that I am concerned over his impending nuptials and I just sent him one final E-mail asking him to please seek Pre-Nup ADVICE from attorneys that were recommended by MY attorney. My hands are clean now. I was a responsible, honest and caring Mom. I told him I will now stay out of his marriage and I asked him to stay out of my divorce.
VH


----------



## Thor

VH, some mention of your will in this thread. Idk what kind of assets may be there, but do protect them. My family lost out of tens of millions when a second wife changed her will after one of my bio relatives died and had left everything to her. No joke on the numbers, it was walk-away-from-job and be retired right f'n now money for a whole bunch of us. My relative trusted his second wife to keep her word. He didn't follow through on how he structured the legal documents. It was all there in a trust, just not activated.

You'd have to consult with a qualified atty in your area to get it locked down air tight.

As for grandchildren, I'll be testing my son's babies to ensure they are my grandchildren, which will assure they are his children. You can do the same thing.


----------



## threelittlestars

^This is why i recommended you restructuring your will and how you can protect your son. Maybe put any money in a trust... I don't know lawyers advice, but i would be changing my will some if i were you. Their marriage might not last a year, but it surly wont last 5....


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

No, two different scenarios. There's protecting yourself and being petty. MIL and DIL cannot change anything in VH's will period. Her son and ex-h cannot change anything in her will period. Now, if VH married it can be changed, Still, as in the Thor's example, that was a rewritten will no one checked. This would fall under protection and his relative was foolish in trusting someone with a large amount of money. In your situation, the will change wasn't suggested as protection, it was offered as punishment and coercion. This would be petty. WHY? The only way it would be effective is to inform your and say "Look what I did." Sure fire way to completely alienate your son. He's an adult and has right to fail and not be coerced by a mother's pettiness..


----------



## threelittlestars

phillybeffandswiss said:


> No, two different scenarios. There's protecting yourself and being petty. MIL and DIL cannot change anything in VH's will period. Her son and ex-h cannot change anything in her will period. Now, if VH married it can be changed, Still, as in the Thor's example, that was a rewritten will no one checked. This would fall under protection and his relative was foolish in trusting someone with a large amount of money. In your situation, the will change wasn't suggested as protection, it was offered as punishment and coercion. This would be petty. WHY? The only way it would be effective is to inform your and say "Look what I did." Sure fire way to completely alienate your son. He's an adult and has right to fail and not be coerced by a mother's pettiness..


She does not have to tell him, thereby its not coercion. She likely wont die between now and when the marriage falls apart anyway so it likely would not need to be exposed that the will changed, Slightly. 

Yes, i did think about it in a coercion sense. I recall charlotte marrying the scottish dude in sex and the city, and they had a prenup... The mother was diabolical but i don't see VH acting anything like that woman. 

VH just needs to find out what her lawyer suggests. There does not need to be alienation because no one needs to know what the will says unless she is dead....and she isn't planning on dying anytime soon.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

She changes the inheritance if he doesn't get a pre-nup, she doesn't show him the new rule and he is then retroactively punished, EVEN if the marriage works out, for not following rules he didn't even know about??? Sorry for me, that is ridiculously petty and subversively coercive. It is his inheritance and her DIL ONLY gets the benefit if she is still married to him. Even then, in many states if not all, your inheritance is not included in a divorce. She can only access it if he allows it and at that point, no offense to VH, she would dead.

I'll finish my part of the derail because we will not see eye to eye on this suggestion.


----------



## threelittlestars

phillybeffandswiss said:


> She changes the inheritance if he doesn't get a pre-nup, she doesn't show him the new rule and he is then retroactively punished, EVEN if the marriage works out, for not following rules he didn't even know about??? Sorry for me, that is ridiculously petty and subversively coercive. It is his inheritance and her DIL ONLY gets the benefit if she is still married to him. Even then, in many states if not all, your inheritance is not included in a divorce. She can only access it if he allows it and at that point, no offense to VH, she would dead.
> 
> I'll finish my part of the derail because we will not see eye to eye on this suggestion.


I only said she should discuss with a lawyer or explore possibilities there. We don't need to see eye to eye so stop trying.  We are just giving different advice and this is a forum, open to many views on advice. Mine is petty by your assertion. Maybe i am. I was just advising her so that perhaps HIS potential estate and inheritance is protected. Petty... Sure maybe. Subjective


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I'll respond so, we will be clearer with each other.


threelittlestars said:


> Very hurt.... I know this is not GREAT advice emotionally for the relationship but it is wise. *I think you should re write in the will NO inheritance unless there is a pre nup.* SERIOUSLY. *Tell him its what a mother does,* protect their child. its not that you forbid the marriage, just that he gets no cashola unless there is one.


I was responding to Thor's comments and this one you wrote earlier, which started the will discussion.


----------



## threelittlestars

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I'll respond so, we will be clearer with each other.
> I was responding to Thor's comments and this one you wrote earlier, which started the will discussion.


And i also warned that emotional for the moment it might not be great advice, but the long term could be okay. I owned the fact that emotionally the plan was controversial. :nerd:


----------



## Thor

One option is to use a trust which only allows her son access to a limited stream of money over time. For example, if she leaves $100k to him then he is able to access up to $10k per year. Money which he doesn't use will stay in the trust and grow until he does access it. But no more than $10k can be taken out in any one calendar year.

It can even be structured so that no money can be used for joint assets such as the house. While this could be circumvented with some creativity, it would remain that he can't take a check from the trust and deposit it into the mortgage account.

In this way, his wife doesn't get access to the money. He could pay for a nice vacation for the 2 of them, and she would benefit. But she wouldn't gain ownership of any of the inheritance.

There could be some age thing where he receives all of it, long into the future, if that might make sense. For example to help support his retirement years.

Anyhow, there would be ways to keep his wife from gaining ownership of the inheritance. Imagine he paid off the house or put the lump sum inheritance into a joint account. Then they get divorced and she walks away with half of it. In this particular marriage I can see a reason to take measures to keep her from gaining that ownership.

A good estate lawyer will know how to make it work where you live. Details will be important. No matter how big or small the estate, the money is important.


----------



## tom67

Thor said:


> One option is to use a trust which only allows her son access to a limited stream of money over time. For example, if she leaves $100k to him then he is able to access up to $10k per year. Money which he doesn't use will stay in the trust and grow until he does access it. But no more than $10k can be taken out in any one calendar year.
> 
> It can even be structured so that no money can be used for joint assets such as the house. While this could be circumvented with some creativity, it would remain that he can't take a check from the trust and deposit it into the mortgage account.
> 
> In this way, his wife doesn't get access to the money. He could pay for a nice vacation for the 2 of them, and she would benefit. But she wouldn't gain ownership of any of the inheritance.
> 
> There could be some age thing where he receives all of it, long into the future, if that might make sense. For example to help support his retirement years.
> 
> Anyhow, there would be ways to keep his wife from gaining ownership of the inheritance. Imagine he paid off the house or put the lump sum inheritance into a joint account. Then they get divorced and she walks away with half of it. In this particular marriage I can see a reason to take measures to keep her from gaining that ownership.
> 
> A good estate lawyer will know how to make it work where you live. Details will be important. No matter how big or small the estate, the money is important.















































OMsimp.G he is a blue pill simp.


----------



## VeryHurt

Update:

The sh!t his the fan last evening. My son called me and put me on speaker phone. The fiancee is with him. 

She proceeds to tell me that she will take care of the response cards and my son will be coming to pick up the wedding invitations.

Then she accused of:

Calling her a liar. (Not true.)

Call her a Bridezilla (Not true but her brother did!)

Making too many suggestions. (True but did not push anything.)

Wanting a Viennese table for dessert. (True but it was at no extra cost and even if it was more money, I am paying for the wedding.)

Telling the printer how to word the invitation. (Not true.)

Causing trouble. (NOT TRUE.)

Being rude to her Mom. (True but only after her Mom took the first shot.)

She ranted and so incredibly rude to me I was STUNNED.

Then she said, "I do not want you at my bridal shower on Sunday."


----------



## turnera

Your response:
"Thank God!"

btw, the more she acts like that, the quicker and more likely he is to get fed up with it and leave her.

IIWY, I'd tell him just one more thing: You may want to consider using condoms.


----------



## MyRevelation

VeryHurt said:


> Update:
> 
> The sh!t his the fan last evening. My son called me and put me on speaker phone. The fiancee is with him.
> 
> She proceeds to tell me that she will take care of the response cards and my son will be coming to pick up the wedding invitations.
> 
> Then she accused of:
> 
> Calling her a liar. (Not true.)
> 
> Call her a Bridezilla (Not true but her brother did!)
> 
> Making too many suggestions. (True but did not push anything.)
> 
> Wanting a Viennese table for dessert. (True but it was at no extra cost and even if it was more money, I am paying for the wedding.)
> 
> Telling the printer how to word the invitation. (Not true.)
> 
> Causing trouble. (NOT TRUE.)
> 
> Being rude to her Mom. (True but only after her Mom took the first shot.)
> 
> She ranted and so incredibly rude to me I was STUNNED.
> 
> Then she said, "I do not want you at my bridal shower on Sunday."


As we've discussed, I've traveled this road before and have a t-shirt or two, but this is a level of disrespect that I simply wouldn't tolerate.

As soon as she finished her little rant ... or probably before she was finished, I would have pulled the plug on the whole mess. I would have simply said ... "Tell you what, I'm out of this whole wedding mess. You guys can do whatever you want, but don't expect me or my checkbook to be a part of this any longer." ... and then I would have went NC from that point forward.

Remember, YOUR SON was on that call too, and he did nothing to stand up to his fiance or for you. He has a very rocky future in store in the near future.

I have walked this walk with my daughter. I had one hard and firm expectation of her growing up ... she knew it, and she broke it, and we didn't speak or see each other for 18 months. She has since apologized for what she did and admits that I was right in handling it the way I did to force her to see a perspective other than her own.

Your son desperately needs such a lesson right NOW.


----------



## 225985

Your son has chosen his bride-to-be over his mother. (Shouldn't that normally be the case anyway) But he seems to have thrown you under the bus. I am sorry for you but after reading all of this is it not unexpected. He is whipped. At this point, let him make his own mistakes. If you are already committed to paying 70% of the costs of the items ALREADY DISCUSSED and approved by you, then honor that commitment. Just sit back and let them tell you what time to show up for the wedding.

Do not permit them to increase the costs you will incur. Finalize the "budget" of what you will pay and tell them anything more than that is their obligation to cover.

As for the will/inheritance, it is YOUR money to do as you please. Change the will, put in a trust, or setup up structured payments. Or give it to a charity. Or spend it on YOU now, enjoy the rest of your long life with travel and fun with new friends. Do what you think is right and what YOU want to do. You do not have to tell them anything. They will find out the contents of the will when you pass, 40 years from now.

For the ***** to say "I do not want you at my bridal shower on Sunday" sums it up. She wants your money but not your presence. 

As hard as it will be for you to do, you need to detach from this. Not drop them from your life, but detach from the worrying. You have enough stress in your life. This is their warning to you that if you question them now or any time in the future, you most likely will lose access to your (yet to be born) grandkids.


----------



## niceguy28

VeryHurt said:


> Update:
> 
> The sh!t his the fan last evening. My son called me and put me on speaker phone. The fiancee is with him.
> 
> She proceeds to tell me that she will take care of the response cards and my son will be coming to pick up the wedding invitations.
> 
> Then she accused of:
> 
> Calling her a liar. (Not true.)
> 
> Call her a Bridezilla (Not true but her brother did!)
> 
> Making too many suggestions. (True but did not push anything.)
> 
> Wanting a Viennese table for dessert. (True but it was at no extra cost and even if it was more money, I am paying for the wedding.)
> 
> Telling the printer how to word the invitation. (Not true.)
> 
> Causing trouble. (NOT TRUE.)
> 
> Being rude to her Mom. (True but only after her Mom took the first shot.)
> 
> She ranted and so incredibly rude to me I was STUNNED.
> 
> Then she said, "I do not want you at my bridal shower on Sunday."


I'm sorry but odds are your son new she was going to jump in your case. She is the one who orchestrated the phone call in the first place. That's why he didn't say anything. VH you have to disassociate yourself from this. Your son is gone and will learn his lesson soon enough. This chick is temporary. Stop stressing over her drama and don't go to her bridal shower. Why would you want to get there in the first place and be around her crazy family? This is a blessing. Only pay for what you have agreed to pay for and NOTHING else. Stop lettings this situation steal your joy. You have a son who is whipped by some crazy girl and eventually his world will fall apart and he will realize the error of his ways. This will ultimately make him a better person and a better man. Let it go VH.


----------



## tom67

blueinbr said:


> Your son has chosen his bride-to-be over his mother. (Shouldn't that normally be the case anyway) But he seems to have thrown you under the bus. I am sorry for you but after reading all of this is it not unexpected. He is whipped. At this point, let him make his own mistakes. If you are already committed to paying 70% of the costs of the items ALREADY DISCUSSED and approved by you, then honor that commit. Just sit back and let them tell you what time to show up for the wedding.
> 
> Do not permit them to increase the costs you will incur. Finalize the "budget" of what you will pay and tell them anything more than that is their obligation to cover.
> 
> As for the will/inheritance, it is YOUR money to do as you please. Change the will, put in a trust, or setup up structured payments. Or give it to a charity. Or spend it on YOU now, enjoy the rest of your long life with travel and fun with new friends. Do what you think is right and what YOU want to do. You do not have to tell them anything. They will find out the contents of the will when you pass, 40 years from now.
> 
> For the ***** to say "I do not want you at my bridal shower on Sunday" sums it up. She wants your money but not your presence.
> 
> As hard as it will be for you to do, you need to detach from this. Not drop them from your life, but detach from the worrying. You have enough stress in your life. This is their warning to you that if you question them now or any time in the future, you most likely will lose access to your (yet to be born) grandkids.


In my opinion I would have told daughter in law to have her mom pay I'm sorry but the lack of respect... I wouldn't put up with it.
Your son is going to learn the hard way being the blue piller on steroids.
You tried personally I wouldn't go to the wedding.
If my daughter had a man and he talked to me like that... well that wouldn't happen.


----------



## LosingHim

I have posted on my thread, but I’m not sure how ‘common knowledge’ it is on TAM. I work part time at a Bridal shop. When J and I were separated and I was in the process of purchasing my own home to move into, I took on a second job to supplement my income and get some money in the bank. From January to April is busy season and I was working about 20 hours a week there, on top of my normal job. It is now slow season so I am down to 1 day every 2 weeks until busy season starts to pick back up in November. 

Even only working one day every 2 weeks, I usually get a story from a mother of the groom every shift I work about what a Bridezilla their sons fiancé is. Sometimes the stories are comical, but one thing remains – there are a LOT of them. I waited on a woman 2 weeks ago that was in to buy her FOURTH mother of the groom dress. Each time she has come in, she has tried the dresses on, sent a picture to the future daughter in law who has ‘approved’ the dress and then she gets it home, tries it on and the future daughter in law hates it and tells her she can’t wear it. We have a very strict no return policy so this poor woman is now $1000 into dresses. This last visit she and her daughter were in and they blatantly called this Bridezilla some very colorful names to me while they were shopping. They are disgusted with her, annoyed by her, etc. and said many times that this wedding has brought out the worst in her, because apparently before she was fine and now she’s an entitled princess. 

What I’m saying is, this controlling Bridezilla thing is apparently the new “norm”. I see it every single time that I work. I had a bride come in who was getting married on a beach with a small private ceremony and then they were having a church ceremony for the rest of the family so she needed 2 dresses. One simple, one more extravagant. I clearly remember her saying to her mom “If he doesn’t cry when he sees me in BOTH of my dresses, I will divorce him so fast his head will spin!” I thought “yeah, good luck on that……”

This generation that is coming into the age of getting married is the first of the overly entitled, spoiled, me, me, me generation. They have no idea what a real wedding is truly about. It’s all about the show. It’s not about the union, it’s not about the start of the new life together. It’s about how beautiful THEY look, it’s all about how much their husbands will worship THEM, it’s all about THEM. I had a bride come in about 2 months ago wanting a low cut, sexy dress because she literally said she wanted EVERYONE checking her out when she walked down the aisle. 

That is what you have on your hands. A spoiled, entitled brat.


----------



## tom67

Thor said:


> VH, some mention of your will in this thread. Idk what kind of assets may be there, but do protect them. My family lost out of tens of millions when a second wife changed her will after one of my bio relatives died and had left everything to her. No joke on the numbers, it was walk-away-from-job and be retired right f'n now money for a whole bunch of us. My relative trusted his second wife to keep her word. He didn't follow through on how he structured the legal documents. It was all there in a trust, just not activated.
> 
> You'd have to consult with a qualified atty in your area to get it locked down air tight.
> 
> As for grandchildren, I'll be testing my son's babies to ensure they are my grandchildren, which will assure they are his children. You can do the same thing.


Setting up a trust like you said is a great idea my parents friends did this for their grand kids.


----------



## GusPolinski

VeryHurt said:


> Update:
> 
> The sh!t his the fan last evening. My son called me and put me on speaker phone. The fiancee is with him.
> 
> She proceeds to tell me that she will take care of the response cards and my son will be coming to pick up the wedding invitations.
> 
> Then she accused of:
> 
> Calling her a liar. (Not true.)
> 
> Call her a Bridezilla (Not true but her brother did!)
> 
> Making too many suggestions. (True but did not push anything.)
> 
> Wanting a Viennese table for dessert. (True but it was at no extra cost and even if it was more money, I am paying for the wedding.)
> 
> Telling the printer how to word the invitation. (Not true.)
> 
> Causing trouble. (NOT TRUE.)
> 
> Being rude to her Mom. (True but only after her Mom took the first shot.)
> 
> She ranted and so incredibly rude to me I was STUNNED.
> 
> Then she said, "I do not want you at my bridal shower on Sunday."


"Fair enough. I don't want you at my son's wedding."

OR

"That's cool. I'm just going to save all of my money for my son's next wedding. Hopefully he'll have fixed his broken picker by then."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lucy999

VeryHurt said:


> Update:
> 
> The sh!t his the fan last evening. My son called me and put me on speaker phone. The fiancee is with him.
> 
> She proceeds to tell me that she will take care of the response cards and my son will be coming to pick up the wedding invitations.
> 
> Then she accused of:
> 
> Calling her a liar. (Not true.)
> 
> Call her a Bridezilla (Not true but her brother did!)
> 
> Making too many suggestions. (True but did not push anything.)
> 
> Wanting a Viennese table for dessert. (True but it was at no extra cost and even if it was more money, I am paying for the wedding.)
> 
> Telling the printer how to word the invitation. (Not true.)
> 
> Causing trouble. (NOT TRUE.)
> 
> Being rude to her Mom. (True but only after her Mom took the first shot.)
> 
> She ranted and so incredibly rude to me I was STUNNED.
> 
> Then she said, "I do not want you at my bridal shower on Sunday."


OHmygosh. The level of disrespect is blowing my mind. I'd be yanking my checkbook out of that scenario so fast she'd never know what hit her. And not because I don't want them married; it'd be because of the tremendous disrespect.

I'm sorry, VH. I truly am. I'm sorry for the whole mess.

First and foremost, though, if I were in your shoes, my feelings would be terribly hurt because my son didn't stand up for me and let his new witch of an entitled princess speak to me in that manner.

Utterly unconscionable.


----------



## Sammy64

After that phone call, I think i would save my Money..


----------



## FeministInPink

I'm with the masses here. Withdraw all financial support for this wedding. If she's going to be such a b!tch to you, and he's going to allow it, then they can pay for their own damn wedding.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## Truthseeker1

VeryHurt said:


> Update:
> 
> The sh!t his the fan last evening. My son called me and put me on speaker phone. The fiancee is with him.
> 
> She proceeds to tell me that she will take care of the response cards and my son will be coming to pick up the wedding invitations.
> 
> Then she accused of:
> 
> Calling her a liar. (Not true.)
> 
> Call her a Bridezilla (Not true but her brother did!)
> 
> Making too many suggestions. (True but did not push anything.)
> 
> Wanting a Viennese table for dessert. (True but it was at no extra cost and even if it was more money, I am paying for the wedding.)
> 
> Telling the printer how to word the invitation. (Not true.)
> 
> Causing trouble. (NOT TRUE.)
> 
> Being rude to her Mom. (True but only after her Mom took the first shot.)
> 
> She ranted and so incredibly rude to me I was STUNNED.
> 
> Then she said, "I do not want you at my bridal shower on Sunday."



Sorry but after this and your son's part in it..he deserves whatever is coming his way..perhaps he gets his nads back in the divorce settlement..then he can learn how to use them...I agree with everyone else - no more money..man that guy is a [email protected]#$%^& doormat...


----------



## Sammy64

I wonder, if VH did pull the cash back, How long until SHE walks on him...


----------



## GusPolinski

MyRevelation said:


> As we've discussed, I've traveled this road before and have a t-shirt or two, but this is a level of disrespect that I simply wouldn't tolerate.
> 
> As soon as she finished her little rant ... or probably before she was finished, I would have pulled the plug on the whole mess. I would have simply said ... "Tell you what, I'm out of this whole wedding mess. You guys can do whatever you want, but don't expect me or my checkbook to be a part of this any longer." ... and then I would have went NC from that point forward.
> 
> *Remember, YOUR SON was on that call too, and he did nothing to stand up to his fiance or for you. He has a very rocky future in store in the near future.*
> 
> I have walked this walk with my daughter. I had one hard and firm expectation of her growing up ... she knew it, and she broke it, and we didn't speak or see each other for 18 months. She has since apologized for what she did and admits that I was right in handling it the way I did to force her to see a perspective other than her own.
> 
> Your son desperately needs such a lesson right NOW.


Yep.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## threelittlestars

PLEASE pull the check book back and tell her you are no longer paying for HER wedding. Her mother and her can cover the cost. You should not be so disrespected why you are monetarily supporting them on their big day... Oiy....I don't think you should bother salvaging your relationship with the future in law. I think you should be clear to your son. he is making a big mistake and if HE wants you at the wedding you will be there for him. But maybe you should not be there at ALL..... 


This was too far.... 

Im so sorry VH. the hits just keep coming.


----------



## GusPolinski

Sort of off-topic, but I'm gonna throw this out there...

Given the rate at which marriages fail these days (and let's face it, this one is doomed), I don't get how or even why so many parents are so willing to parts w/ huge sums of cash just to placate their spoiled, entitled children.

Sure, I don't have kids myself, much less kids old enough to marry, but I can't see me handling it any way other than this...

<As I'm writing out a check for a fixed amount of money>

"Here is the money that you're getting from me/us for your wedding. This is ALL that you'll be getting from me/us for your wedding. You won't get even a single cent more. If this -- for whatever reason -- isn't enough, you're going to have to cover the difference yourselves."

The end.

Oh, and as for the bride telling her future MIL what to wear for the wedding?

F*ck _that_ noise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964

You are not seriously still paying for anything are you???? 

As for the bridal shower, who the fluck cares?? Call up your relatives and tell them that you're holding a party for your son instead of attending the shower and that you'd love them to join you. Also let it be known WHY you didn't attend the shower, because you KNOW people will wonder, and if they're hearing it from the b!tch you know it'll be your fault.

My son is engaged (as I mentioned) and they aren't into the planning stage yet, but it hasn't even crossed my mind to run what I plan to wear by the bride. Screw that. 

Hubby and I haven't talked about contributing any money either, and I have no idea if my son thinks we will be, but I have never paid for stuff for my kids, including their educations, so I don't know why he'd think I was paying for any of the wedding. I suppose we could offer them a fixed amount if we feel like it, but that will be as far as it goes.


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## GusPolinski

@Hope1964, I'd point out that you've paid for your children's educations in the form of taxes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964

GusPolinski said:


> @Hope1964, I'd point out that you've paid for your children's educations in the form of taxes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OK sure, if you want to get technical 

Except for my daughter from grade 9-12, as she was homeschooled.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

VeryHurt said:


> Update:
> 
> The sh!t his the fan last evening. My son called me and put me on speaker phone. The fiancee is with him.
> 
> She proceeds to tell me that she will take care of the response cards and my son will be coming to pick up the wedding invitations.
> 
> Then she accused of:
> 
> Calling her a liar. (Not true.)
> 
> Call her a Bridezilla (Not true but her brother did!)
> 
> Making too many suggestions. (True but did not push anything.)
> 
> Wanting a Viennese table for dessert. (True but it was at no extra cost and even if it was more money, I am paying for the wedding.)
> 
> Telling the printer how to word the invitation. (Not true.)
> 
> Causing trouble. (NOT TRUE.)
> 
> Being rude to her Mom. (True but only after her Mom took the first shot.)
> 
> She ranted and so incredibly rude to me I was STUNNED.
> 
> Then she said, "I do not want you at my bridal shower on Sunday."


Well, there you go, your son has snitched you out and has chosen his side. He is marrying her so, you now become second to his wife. Still, you now know not to discuss anything about his soon to be wife with him. So, her name stays out of your mouth and you go on with your life. 

Yes, your son acted like a petulant child. You knew how she was so, you should be *more stunned* your son put you on speaker phone, he told her your private discussions AFTER HE ASKED FOR ADVICE and then he didn't defend you. Now, he has confirmed you need to let him fall flat on his a$$. 

Also, as I tell people, you can forgive a person, but not accept their apology. If he calls to apologize, I'd forgive him for his lack of action and be understanding. I wouldn't accept the apology because he made a choice, in allowing this to happen, by putting you on speaker phone.


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## karole

With all due respect, your son and your soon to be daughter-in-law are both spoiled rotten brats, so maybe they'll be happy together. 

I agree with everyone else that says to withdraw the money from the wedding. I would do that in a heartbeat were I in your situation. Neither of them deserve your help.


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## Sammy64

I thought the Bride's family paid for the wedding 

" Traditionally, the bride's family foots majority of the bill. Of course, this rarely applies these days, but it's interesting to note all of the costs that the bride and her family were once held responsible for. They include obvious things like the wedding dress and accessories and the bride's gifts to her bridesmaid and groom. A lot of big ticket items fall on that list too like the wedding planner or coordinator, invitations and all its corresponding stationery, majority of the flowers, total reception costs, all photography and videography expenses, the groom's wedding ring, music for the church and the reception, any rentals, the bridesmaid's luncheon, accommodation for all bridesmaids, and, lastly, all transportation needed for the big day. " 

The Traditional Breakdown of Whose Family Pays for What : Brides


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## turnera

LosingHim said:


> This generation that is coming into the age of getting married is the first of the overly entitled, spoiled, me, me, me generation. They have no idea what a real wedding is truly about. It’s all about the show. It’s not about the union, it’s not about the start of the new life together. It’s about how beautiful THEY look, it’s all about how much their husbands will worship THEM, it’s all about THEM.


QFT. This generation growing up on Facebook and bragging and back-stabbing...I shudder to think what it'll be like in 10 years. So glad I won't be around that long.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Oh and I opted all the way out of wedding planning. I was so far out, my wife tried to get upset when I wasn't going to wear the correct colors. I told her "Really, does it matter?I only know the date not the time, nor the place, nor colors or even seen an invitation two days before the wedding." Now, who should be upset?" The argument was a non-starter at this point. Yes, first wedding, still do not care how little I was involved. After hearing some of the horror stories, it is best I wasn't. I'd have blown up the entire wedding, groom's and bride's feelings be damned. Yes, opt all the way out and just become indifferent.


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## threelittlestars

Honestly...he picked his team. He chose correctly when it comes to she being his chosen partner. If he chose her, he should stand up for her. People see him as weak and whipped, i actually see it the other way. he has balls.... He aint a mommy's boy. But he is choosing his partner unwisely. I just wish she was worth his loyalty. You raised a good guy VH. He just picked a very BAD girl. at this point this girl is a monster....I can't imagine you EVER liking her after this. But you have tried. 

Withdraw monetary support, but not emotional. Tell your son you will always be there for him if he wants you to be. And walk away....Im so sorry! But you cannot be a doormat again, and you cannot just stuff your VALID feelings down. And you cannot accept such childish *****y disrespect from the woman that is to marry your son. You did not deserve that phone call. or the uninvited to the shower. And you do not deserved to be banned from an event you already were invited to relating to a wedding you are paying for.


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## turnera

He has balls to treat his mother disrespectfully because that's all he saw growing up from his father, and all he saw from his mother was her accepting it (no offense, VH, but it's true). Why would he think differently now? How could he think differently now? VH is/was the mistreated one in the family; that's her role.


----------



## FeministInPink

turnera said:


> He has balls to treat his mother disrespectfully because that's all he saw growing up from his father, and all he saw from his mother was her accepting it (no offense, VH, but it's true). Why would he think differently now? How could he think differently now? VH is/was the mistreated one in the family; that's her role.


It's really hard to break out of these established dynamics, VH. The people around us often don't like when we decide that we are going to change and demand something different, because it forces THEM to change in response. It makes them uncomfortable. But it needs to happen if we want something better than that. 

I think you need to stand up for yourself. You need to make it clear that you won't tolerate being treated in this way. And I think the only way to do that is to withdraw your funding of the wedding, and make it clear WHY you are doing it.

And it won't be easy. You'll be accused of being a drama queen. You'll be accused of trying to manipulate them. And guess who will be making those accusations? Even if it isn't to your face, she'll be whispering it in your son's ear.

Good luck, VH. You know we're rooting for you, but you're the one who has to do the hard work here.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## Tron

I agree with the others VH. Pull your financial support. You have no obligation to support that level of disrespect. 

I would almost be tempted to call your son and ask him not to call you for anything until he gets his f'ing balls back. Jeesh!


----------



## Broken at 20

I had trouble deciding which picture to use. So I'll use two. 
*This is your son now:*










*And this is your son in*...oh...they say the average marriage lasts 8 years...but she has already cheated on him...but he is p-whipped....*10 years. 15 max. *


----------



## 225985

threelittlestars said:


> he has balls....





turnera said:


> He has balls to treat his mother disrespectfully


I see the opposite. He has no balls. His GF cheated on him and he does nothing. He leaves his great West Coast job to come back to her. He allows his fiancee to utterly disrespect his mother and does nothing. If he had balls he could support his wife-to-be while still demanding she show respect for his mother.

VH can threaten to pull monetary support for the wedding. And they would respond by doing just enough to appease her to get the money. To the woman, VH is an ATM, nothing more. But VH will pay dearly even to threaten that. 

I predict that post-wedding, the bride will completely control VH's son. He will be cut off from VH. The bride will decide where they live and it will be close to her parents. They will go to parent's house every weekend and she will make her parents to be his new parents. They will never move far away from the parents because the bride will use them as allies to control the son.

Any threat to withhold the money and VH will lose contact with her son. It may already be too late. The bride probably has no intention of allowing her husband to see his mother, especially if he said anything to his fiancee about his mother having doubts about the wedding.

IMO the bride sees VH as a direct threat to her marriage. She wants a husband she can utterly control and she found one. The sad part is that he will be cut off from the one person who is his unwavering supporter. When things start to go bad months or years from now, he will have already alienated his mother. But VH will forgive him and console him.


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## Thor

It isn't about threatening to withhold finances, it is actually removing the finances. Honestly, it is weird that the groom's parents are providing any substantive money for the wedding!

If these were a couple of 19 yr olds getting married they might need money. But not in this case! They are established adults. A wedding gift of cash would be fine as a wedding gift, but not directly paying for the wedding. And, importantly, gifts are optional. When someone behaves badly they do not deserve gifts, and givers are under no obligation to give gifts.

I would pull funding immediately and make it known this is due to the extreme disrespect.


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## phillybeffandswiss

This all fell apart when he talked to her father. I mean he broke up with her, was still conflicted, talked to soon to be FIL and has been more and more disrespectful to you since the conversation. Man, VH, be prepared these people have some type of hold on your son.


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## tom67

phillybeffandswiss said:


> This all fell apart when he talked to her father. I mean he broke up with her, was still conflicted, talked to soon to be FIL and has been more and more disrespectful to you since the conversation. Man, VH, be prepared these people have some type of hold on your son.


She has to let him go....


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## phillybeffandswiss

You mean she has to let him grow. She's his mom, she'll never let him go.


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## happy as a clam

VH.... Please don't pay for this circus. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## VeryHurt

Well, I saw my son yesterday and he said that his fiancee felt terribly after she told me not to come to her bridal shower. 

I said, " oh really, that was 24 hours ago and I haven't heard an apology from her. She could not have felt that bad."

He is making all these excuses for her.

I am sick, absolutely sick and heartbroken that he is falling for her crap.

She is deliberately causing a wedge between me and my son and it's working.

I never heard from her parents. I sent them an email telling then I wanted my gifts and money returned to me. It's been nearly two days and they did not acknowledge it.

No class morons.

I told my son today, I don't like her mother and I don't like her.

They way she spoke to me was horrible. She talked down to me, questioned me and disrespected me. And what did my son do?

Nothing as far as I know.

I tried to contact my idiot stbx aka IB but guess where he is? That's right, he is on a 10 day sailing trip off the coast of California. I wanted to let him know that I will not be paying for anything else for the wedding and if HE wants to he can but I refuse.

Her parents will have to take out a loan or she and my son will have to pay. Have no clue where they will come up with 70 K and I don't care.

She feels entitled and she is ungrateful. And my son is close behind.

She has been mooching off us since 2009. That's right folks. She has lived with my son and has not paid for anything. And yet she has no money saved because she lives at the mall.

My son said he is hurt that I have not going to the bridal shower. Duh?
Your fiancee told me she did not want me there and she never called to apologize and ask me to come.

What am I going to do?

I am losing my son and my divorce will be final in a few weeks.

How much more can I emotionally handle?


----------



## GusPolinski

Wait... how much is this farce supposed to cost overall? 70K, 105K, or 210K...?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HobbesTheTiger

My advice is to pull away all the money from the wedding/them that you can and invest it in YOURSELF! First non-essential priority to spend the money on should imho be individual counselling for yourself that I think will help you tremendously, as it did to me. IC will also help you to set up and enforce healthy boundaries with other people, including your son. What are your thoughts on IC? Btw, have you ever read a book called "Families and how to survive them"? It's a great book, I recommend it.


----------



## rzmpf

VeryHurt said:


> Your fiancee told me she did not want me there and she never called to apologize and ask me to come.
> 
> What am I going to do?


Someone who does not want you to be at her bridal shower has no right to expect you to pay for the wedding (and to expect your attendance at the wedding).

Save the money, save the aggravation that is going to be this wedding and the marriage. Just stay out of it, they want their own life, let them have it. Their problems are theirs, why do you care (I know he is your son, but you get the point). Decide if you even want to attend, if you still want, don't get involved in anything, send/give them an appropiate gift and tell your son that your door will always be open if he needs you and that's it. 

You have given your advice, it was rejected so leave it. You will either be proven wrong or right. Focus on your life, deal with your divorce and how you want to live afterwards.


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## 225985

VeryHurt said:


> I sent them an email telling then I wanted my gifts and money returned to me.


:yay::yay::yay:


----------



## just got it 55

VeryHurt said:


> Well, I saw my son yesterday and he said that his fiancee felt terribly after she told me not to come to her bridal shower.
> 
> I said, " oh really, that was 24 hours ago and I haven't heard an apology from her. She could not have felt that bad."
> 
> He is making all these excuses for her.
> 
> I am sick, absolutely sick and heartbroken that he is falling for her crap.
> 
> She is deliberately causing a wedge between me and my son and it's working.
> 
> I never heard from her parents. I sent them an email telling then I wanted my gifts and money returned to me. It's been nearly two days and they did not acknowledge it.
> 
> No class morons.
> 
> I told my son today, I don't like her mother and I don't like her.
> 
> They way she spoke to me was horrible. She talked down to me, questioned me and disrespected me. And what did my son do?
> 
> Nothing as far as I know.
> 
> I tried to contact my idiot stbx aka IB but guess where he is? That's right, he is on a 10 day sailing trip off the coast of California. I wanted to let him know that I will not be paying for anything else for the wedding and if HE wants to he can but I refuse.
> 
> Her parents will have to take out a loan or she and my son will have to pay. Have no clue where they will come up with 70 K and I don't care.
> 
> She feels entitled and she is ungrateful. And my son is close behind.
> 
> She has been mooching off us since 2009. That's right folks. She has lived with my son and has not paid for anything. And yet she has no money saved because she lives at the mall.
> 
> My son said he is hurt that I have not going to the bridal shower. Duh?
> Your fiancee told me she did not want me there and she never called to apologize and ask me to come.
> 
> What am I going to do?
> 
> I am losing my son and my divorce will be final in a few weeks.
> 
> How much more can I emotionally handle?


JSG I'm sure that I am not alone by saying how fond I am of you

after this post of yours I have never had more respect.

This event has left me numb and speechless.

Take care of yourself sweet pea.

55


----------



## blahfridge

VH, I've followed both your threads, and I have to say I think you are handling this very well. If I were you, I would send an email to your son telling him that you respect his right to make his own decisions about his life. His soon to be wife and her family do not respect you and because of this, you feel it is necessary to withdraw your financial support for this wedding. Tell him you are doing this out of respect for yourself.


----------



## vi_bride04

Sammy64 said:


> After that phone call, I think i would save my Money..





FeministInPink said:


> I'm with the masses here. Withdraw all financial support for this wedding. If she's going to be such a b!tch to you, and he's going to allow it, then they can pay for their own damn wedding.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk





Sammy64 said:


> I wonder, if VH did pull the cash back, How long until SHE walks on him...





threelittlestars said:


> PLEASE pull the check book back and tell her you are no longer paying for HER wedding. Her mother and her can cover the cost. You should not be so disrespected why you are monetarily supporting them on their big day... Oiy....I don't think you should bother salvaging your relationship with the future in law. I think you should be clear to your son. he is making a big mistake and if HE wants you at the wedding you will be there for him. But maybe you should not be there at ALL.....
> 
> 
> This was too far....
> 
> Im so sorry VH. the hits just keep coming.





Sammy64 said:


> I thought the Bride's family paid for the wedding
> 
> " Traditionally, the bride's family foots majority of the bill. Of course, this rarely applies these days, but it's interesting to note all of the costs that the bride and her family were once held responsible for. They include obvious things like the wedding dress and accessories and the bride's gifts to her bridesmaid and groom. A lot of big ticket items fall on that list too like the wedding planner or coordinator, invitations and all its corresponding stationery, majority of the flowers, total reception costs, all photography and videography expenses, the groom's wedding ring, music for the church and the reception, any rentals, the bridesmaid's luncheon, accommodation for all bridesmaids, and, lastly, all transportation needed for the big day. "
> 
> The Traditional Breakdown of Whose Family Pays for What : Brides





Tron said:


> I agree with the others VH. Pull your financial support. You have no obligation to support that level of disrespect.
> 
> I would almost be tempted to call your son and ask him not to call you for anything until he gets his f'ing balls back. Jeesh!





HobbesTheTiger said:


> My advice is to pull away all the money from the wedding/them that you can and invest it in YOURSELF! First non-essential priority to spend the money on should imho be individual counselling for yourself that I think will help you tremendously, as it did to me. IC will also help you to set up and enforce healthy boundaries with other people, including your son. What are your thoughts on IC? Btw, have you ever read a book called "Families and how to survive them"? It's a great book, I recommend it.


Everything above.

I'm livid thinking about anyone talking to me that way....I can't believe the level of disrespect. 

Screw that wedding, she totally has your son's balls. They are no longer attached to his body.


----------



## turnera

I imagine she's already spent that $70k, as people want this stuff up front.

But VH, WOW am I proud of you for telling your son that! And emailing her parents. WOW! Such growth in you!

And hold firm. Not attending the shower unless she apologizes is a PERFECT boundary and consequence to enact. VERY clear, NOTHING can be misconstrued - you mistreated me and I will not associate with you without an apology. Period.

PERFECT.

And btw, you aren't losing your son. You are TEMPORARILY going separate paths. ONE day he'll be fed up with the path he chose, remember what you told him, give up on his fantasy of who his wife is, and leave her. 

Once that happens, he'll reach out, say you were right, thank you for your honesty, and resume your relationship. Happens all the time. 

Think of it this way. You get to avoid being around her, until she's out of his life.


----------



## FeministInPink

turnera said:


> I imagine she's already spent that $70k, as people want this stuff up front.
> 
> But VH, WOW am I proud of you for telling your son that! And emailing her parents. WOW! Such growth in you!
> 
> And hold firm. Not attending the shower unless she apologizes is a PERFECT boundary and consequence to enact. VERY clear, NOTHING can be misconstrued - you mistreated me and I will not associate with you without an apology. Period.
> 
> PERFECT.
> 
> And btw, you aren't losing your son. You are TEMPORARILY going separate paths. ONE day he'll be fed up with the path he chose, remember what you told him, give up on his fantasy of who his wife is, and leave her.
> 
> Once that happens, he'll reach out, say you were right, thank you for your honesty, and resume your relationship. Happens all the time.
> 
> Think of it this way. You get to avoid being around her, until she's out of his life.


Agreed!!!

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## just got it 55

turnera said:


> I imagine she's already spent that $70k, as people want this stuff up front.
> 
> But VH, WOW am I proud of you for telling your son that! And emailing her parents. WOW! Such growth in you!
> 
> And hold firm. Not attending the shower unless she apologizes is a PERFECT boundary and consequence to enact. VERY clear, NOTHING can be misconstrued - you mistreated me and I will not associate with you without an apology. Period.
> 
> PERFECT.
> 
> And btw, you aren't losing your son. You are TEMPORARILY going separate paths. ONE day he'll be fed up with the path he chose, remember what you told him, give up on his fantasy of who his wife is, and leave her.
> 
> Once that happens, he'll reach out, say you were right, thank you for your honesty, and resume your relationship. Happens all the time.
> 
> Think of it this way. *You get to avoid being around her, until she's out of his life.*


I would tell the princess this first chance I get

Then you can give them both an

I told you so LOOK :moon:

55


----------



## alte Dame

I'm sorry, VH, that this is happening.

I think I would pull back at this point and not engage in conversation with the stb-ILs. I would set an affordable limit to the money I would contribute, saying 'I love you, son, and I will give you this wedding gift to spend as you wish.' I would skip the shower and wedding arrangements and show up to the wedding as the mother of the groom. I would smile and shake hands and make small talk at the reception.

You have now had years of heartache with your stbxh and now you have this heartache with your son. Why not build a bit of a wall to distance yourself? Don't do anything extreme that you will regret later. Just protect yourself. Stop any involvement in the arrangements and then just be there for you son on his big day.

And perhaps consider that your son watched you hang on to your WH for years, hoping that things might work out. Perhaps he is modeling you rather than his father (?). Just a thought.

Big hugs. Take a deep breath.

aD


----------



## 225985

Openminded said:


> Once my son and his wife were divorced, our relationship returned to what it once was.


Not that VH's son will follow the same path, but how long did your son's marriage last?


----------



## Openminded

blueinbr said:


> Not that VH's son will follow the same path, but how long did you son's marriage last?


Fifteen unhappy years.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Remember, be more disappointed in your son. Don't hold grudges, but when he finally talks to you, let it be known what he did and has done is HIGHLY disrespectful.Yes, he must support his wife, but there are lines you do not cross. My wife thought my mom hated her. Not once did she EVER yell or flare up at my mom. When she felt disrespected, she told me and I talked to my mother about any issues. You explain that even if he feels she is right, he should have NEVER allowed her to talk to you in that fashion. Yes, even if her rant was 100% correct and her accusations have merit.


----------



## threelittlestars

VeryHurt said:


> Well, I saw my son yesterday and he said that his fiancee felt terribly after she told me not to come to her bridal shower.
> 
> I said, " oh really, that was 24 hours ago and I haven't heard an apology from her. She could not have felt that bad."
> 
> He is making all these excuses for her.
> 
> I am sick, absolutely sick and heartbroken that he is falling for her crap.
> 
> She is deliberately causing a wedge between me and my son and it's working.
> 
> I never heard from her parents. I sent them an email telling then I wanted my gifts and money returned to me. It's been nearly two days and they did not acknowledge it.
> 
> No class morons.
> 
> I told my son today, I don't like her mother and I don't like her.
> 
> They way she spoke to me was horrible. She talked down to me, questioned me and disrespected me. And what did my son do?
> 
> Nothing as far as I know.
> 
> I tried to contact my idiot stbx aka IB but guess where he is? That's right, he is on a 10 day sailing trip off the coast of California. I wanted to let him know that I will not be paying for anything else for the wedding and if HE wants to he can but I refuse.
> 
> Her parents will have to take out a loan or she and my son will have to pay. Have no clue where they will come up with 70 K and I don't care.
> 
> She feels entitled and she is ungrateful. And my son is close behind.
> 
> She has been mooching off us since 2009. That's right folks. She has lived with my son and has not paid for anything. And yet she has no money saved because she lives at the mall.
> 
> My son said he is hurt that I have not going to the bridal shower. Duh?
> Your fiancee told me she did not want me there and she never called to apologize and ask me to come.
> 
> What am I going to do?
> 
> I am losing my son and my divorce will be final in a few weeks.
> 
> How much more can I emotionally handle?


Hey, VH...How much money do you expect her parents to give back? 70K?? who the HECK has a 70K wedding? ENTITLED PEOPLE! wtf? My wedding was 8k...and it was BEAUTIFUL. But that is here nor there. I think you wont be seeing any money coming back to you. 

Just close the pocket book now and dont sweat about what you already gave. You can know you DID support your son the best you know how, but you can only take so much abuse. 

I agree with everyone else. You keep that money close and spend it as YOU SEE FIT. Please, GO ON A CRUISE right after the wedding, just for you. Or take a trip some place that you can find joy. 

THIS IS YOUR TIME. not your sons, not your IB time. YOURS. AND SPEND THAT MONEY ON YOU!


----------



## turnera

I can't imagine my daughter ever speaking disrespectfully to me. Incomprehensible. Or letting anyone else do it. 

Why? 

Because she knows I'll give her HELL for DARING to be rude to me. I didn't raise her that way, and she knows it. I EXPECT her to be respectful to elders and to not defend or support other people being disrespectful. 

VH's son has a long road ahead of him, because being disrespectful is what.he.learned from his dad, so it will take some hard knocks for him to seek other solutions.


----------



## Catherine602

VH Sorry this is happening. If the apology is not directly from her then it didn't happen. 

For peace and harmony at home, your son will invariably choose to appease his future wife. I don't know what prompted the call but he may have mentioned something of your objections and that may have set her off. 

You have to expect that he will share his thoughts with her especially those that trouble him. He was wrong to, in effect, ambush you with the phone call. He knows her well enough to have predicted what she was going to say. Assume that whatever you say to your son will be leaked so be cautious.

I would not spend another dime on the wedding. Don't waver on this. The financial generosity was a gift that was given out of mutual respect. You have not been the recipient of the respect and appreciation you deserve. 

Withdrawal of finances should not be done out of spite, of course. However, no self-respecting person would foot the bill for a party that gives the recipient a chance to demonstrate their bad feelings. Not one morsel of the meal you purchased should pass the lips of the ungrateful. 

Tell your son how you feel and ask him if he feels it would be reasonable for you to pay for a party that you are not welcomed to attend. You don't seem to be an in-your-face type of person so you may be less likely to be confrontational. 

I don't think you need to be. All you need are boundaries and be in-your-face about holding to them. People will get the message.


----------



## VeryHurt

My son called this morning and asked me to go to the beach today so the "four of us could talk." Meaning her mom as well.
I said no. 

I him that she is complaining about me because he complains about her mom except he has valid reasons to gripe about her. She is sneaky, lies and drinks too much. Her mom got the family is a financial mess years ago and her dad almost moved out. 

Even to this day her mom lied to her dad about how much the wedding gown costs. The mom does not get along with her mom, dad or 2 sisters.

She drops money like crazy on clothes and beauty crap and she wants to get Botox before the wedding.

I have nothing in common with her mother. I am 11 years older than her and we have different priorities in life.

So, the fiancee called me to apologize. She said she was sorry that things go out of hand and she wants me to come to the bridal shower tomorrow.

My son has been begging me to go.

I really do not want to go but my brothers convinced me to go for my son. I am driving to her mom's house in the morning. She leaves 80 miles away. I will stay, act polite and like a lady,eat brunch and come home.

When my son comes up next week I will let him know that all bets are off if she ever speaks to me with disrespect again.

I get a pit in my stomach when I think about him marrying her. He will eventually be miserable and they will divorce.

I will probably change my will because if I croak, he will get my money and then she will get it.

Catherine mentioned my personality and behavior. I am not confrontational and I treated her like a daughter. I am kind and very generous with her.

I hated MY mother in law. She was a Monster in Law and treated me and my son terribly. But NOT ONCE did I disrespect her. I vowed that I would never treat my daughter in law the way she treated me.

My fiancee has nothing to,complain about. She turned on me onve they got engaged. She knows that I know about her cheating and she hates that my son shared that with me. She hates the closeness that we have. Don't get me wrong, he is NOT a mama's boy, he just likes talking to me and he knows I am warm and caring. My son also adored my mom. My mom and I are very warm, fuzzy and nuturing. We listened to him. 

I know that he will have to make his new wife his priority and I understand that.


----------



## turnera

> She said she was sorry that things go out of hand


Wait.

Did she actually apologize for what she SAID?

Or did she just apologize that you got upset?

Big difference.


----------



## tom67

VeryHurt said:


> My son called this morning and asked me to go to the beach today so the "four of us could talk." Meaning her mom as well.
> I said no.
> 
> I him that she is complaining about me because he complains about her mom except he has valid reasons to gripe about her. She is sneaky, lies and drinks too much. Her mom got the family is a financial mess years ago and her dad almost moved out.
> 
> Even to this day her mom lied to her dad about how much the wedding gown costs. The mom does not get along with her mom, dad or 2 sisters.
> 
> She drops money like crazy on clothes and beauty crap and she wants to get Botox before the wedding.
> 
> I have nothing in common with her mother. I am 11 years older than her and we have different priorities in life.
> 
> So, the fiancee called me to apologize. She said she was sorry that things go out of hand and she wants me to come to the bridal shower tomorrow.
> 
> My son has been begging me to go.
> 
> I really do not want to go but my brothers convinced me to go for my son. I am driving to her mom's house in the morning. She leaves 80 miles away. I will stay, act polite and like a lady,eat brunch and come home.
> 
> When my son comes up next week I will let him know that all bets are off if she ever speaks to me with disrespect again.
> 
> I get a pit in my stomach when I think about him marrying her. He will eventually be miserable and they will divorce.
> 
> I will probably change my will because if I croak, he will get my money and then she will get it.
> 
> Catherine mentioned my personality and behavior. I am not confrontational and I treated her like a daughter. I am kind and very generous with her.
> 
> I hated MY mother in law. She was a Monster in Law and treated me and my son terribly. But NOT ONCE did I disrespect her. I vowed that I would never treat my daughter in law the way she treated me.
> 
> My fiancee has nothing to,complain about. She turned on me onve they got engaged. She knows that I know about her cheating and she hates that my son shared that with me. She hates the closeness that we have. Don't get me wrong, he is NOT a mama's boy, he just likes talking to me and he knows I am warm and caring. My son also adored my mom. My mom and I are very warm, fuzzy and nuturing. We listened to him.
> 
> I know that he will have to make his new wife his priority and I understand that.


It's your decision but just ask yourself do you think you are moving the goal posts.
No disrespect as you are in the middle of an ugly d but in my opinion showing strength in your resolve may wake up your son.
Again not saying this isn't tough. :frown2:


----------



## threelittlestars

I still think you should not go to the shower but can totally understand and agree to the other half of the argument. I just lean a little farther to the side of not going to the shower. Good for her for actually attempting to apologize, thought i doubt she really did. She should have been very specific with the words and behaviors she was sorry for. 

I sure hope you close that pocket book. What she did cannot land her back in your pocket book....please dont let that happen.


----------



## turnera

I suggest that you go to the shower and, for a gift, give her a copy of two books: Not Just Friends, and His Needs Her Needs.

Maybe if you're lucky, your son will see them before she throws them away and read them and learn something.


----------



## tom67

turnera said:


> I suggest that you go to the shower and, for a gift, give her a copy of two books: Not Just Friends, and His Needs Her Needs.
> 
> Maybe if you're lucky, your son will see them before she throws them away and read them and learn something.


Oh boy :surprise:>

Along with No More Mr Nice Guy.


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## HobbesTheTiger

VH, what do you think about you and individual counselling?


----------



## 225985

blueinbr said:


> VH can threaten to pull monetary support for the wedding. And they would respond by doing just enough to appease her to get the money. To the woman, VH is an ATM, nothing more.





threelittlestars said:


> I sure hope you close that pocket book. What she did cannot land her back in your pocket book....please dont let that happen.


This ^^^^^

Did the fiancee call and apologize because she was truly sorry? Or did she call because you cut off the money?

VH, you still have other gifts to give the soon-to-be married couple. Unless you already decide not to pay, you are going to limit or stop any new financial contributions to the wedding. This will give the couple the gift of learning to budget (no more open checkbook) and the gift of setting boundaries (learning to show respect). 

You have shown such great strength in your last few posts. Like WOW. Keep doing that and stay strong during the beach meeting.


----------



## lucy999

VeryHurt said:


> My son called this morning and asked me to go to the beach today so the "four of us could talk." Meaning her mom as well.
> I said no.
> 
> 
> 
> So, the fiancee called me to apologize. She said she was sorry that things go out of hand


Atta girl for saying no to going to the beach. I'm proud of you. It would have been three against one. 

And that was not an apology in any way, shape or form. "Things got out of hand "? What an insult. She took no responsibility for her egregious disrespectful behavior. What a brat.


Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## VeryHurt

I did not make a big deal on the phone yesterday but I plan to speak to my son when we are alone this week:

What did you think when she was speaking to me so disrespectfully?
Why didn't you stop her?
Did you agree with her?

I will reinforce she is doing her best to put a wedge between us.

She LIES to him about things that I said or did that NEVER occurred.

I will tell him to make sure she fvcking NEVER talks to me disrespectfully EVER again OR tell her for me that she better NEVER talks down to me and be disrespectful again.

Does my son speak to HER Mom that way?

I am getting ready to leave for the bridal shower. I plan to go, be cordial and leave.

Oh this was really a cheap shot....she told my son that I slam a door in her face. Now, my TAM friends have known me a very long time, do you think I would slam a door in ANYONE'S face? How the fvck can my son believe her?

I wish my son a lot of luck with his marriage, he is gonna need it !!

I'll post after the shower ..............

VH


----------



## introvert

VeryHurt said:


> Oh this was really a cheap shot....she told my son that I slam a door in her face. Now, my TAM friends have known me a very long time, do you think I would slam a door in ANYONE'S face? How the fvck can my son believe her?
> 
> VH


Perhaps she meant figuratively?


----------



## introvert

I did not read every single post here, since the thread has become an epic novel. 

VH, I can understand your despair/anger at your son's choice of mates...however, he needs to make his own mistakes, as we all have done. No matter how much we wish that our past experiences could influence other people, life doesn't work that way.

I can see how things ended up this way...first, you mentioned that son and dil got engaged last October, but in the same line said that they didn't...or that son "wanted" to, but held off because of dil's spendy ways.

So, were they engaged, but without a ring? Can't you imagine the response from dil's girlfriends (not to mention her own disappointment) at this (quasi?) engagement with no blingy ring to show around?

Son made a classic mistake- trying to change dil and control her spending. We all know that we can't "change" anybody. I can imagine dil blanching at his assuming a parent role where her spending was concerned.

Son then flew off to 'Frisco, as his career was taking off. Dil's career plans foundered and she remained stuck back home in the Garden state. I'm certain her girl friends urged her to do the "180" that folks here advocate during periods of marital discord.

Son panicked and went into a tailspin (understandable) when no contact ensued.

Dil took a walk on the wild side during her period of desperation.
Try to remember that things weren't working out for her as she'd planned, too. I'm not saying her actions were the most mature, but son doesn't win any awards in that category, either.

No matter how much you dislike this young woman, son loves her. Clearly, the benefits of beauty and all her other attributes outweigh her spendthrift ways in his eyes. Right now, he can't imagine life without her.

I suggest keeping silent to son about his choice. Stop trying to control the outcome of this situation...it won't work. Please be kind to dil and her mom. After all, dil may be in your family for a very long time...you never know.

If/when the day arrives that son finds himself dumped, be a support to him. That's what a good "mommy" does.

Finally, as much as you want to make this all about dil and her wicked mom, it's good to remember that this relationship story has been co-authored by both son and dil. I know as humans, we have tendency to stick up for our own and make the other person "all bad"...that's truly rarely ever the case.

I really hope that you find some peace in the coming weeks and months. Another poster suggested counseling for you- I have found counseling to be very helpful during my own difficult times. It might be a good option for you.

Take care...


----------



## VeryHurt

introvert said:


> I did not read every single post here, since the thread has become an epic novel.
> 
> VH, I can understand your despair/anger at your son's choice of mates...however, he needs to make his own mistakes, as we all have done. No matter how much we wish that our past experiences could influence other people, life doesn't work that way.
> 
> I can see how things ended up this way...first, you mentioned that son and dil got engaged last October, but in the same line said that they didn't...or that son "wanted" to, but held off because of dil's spendy ways.
> 
> So, were they engaged, but without a ring? Can't you imagine the response from dil's girlfriends (not to mention her own disappointment) at this (quasi?) engagement with no blingy ring to show around?
> 
> Son made a classic mistake- trying to change dil and control her spending. We all know that we can't "change" anybody. I can imagine dil blanching at his assuming a parent role where her spending was concerned.
> 
> Son then flew off to 'Frisco, as his career was taking off. Dil's career plans foundered and she remained stuck back home in the Garden state. I'm certain her girl friends urged her to do the "180" that folks here advocate during periods of marital discord.
> 
> Son panicked and went into a tailspin (understandable) when no contact ensued.
> 
> Dil took a walk on the wild side during her period of desperation.
> Try to remember that things weren't working out for her as she'd planned, too. I'm not saying her actions were the most mature, but son doesn't win any awards in that category, either.
> 
> No matter how much you dislike this young woman, son loves her. Clearly, the benefits of beauty and all her other attributes outweigh her spendthrift ways in his eyes. Right now, he can't imagine life without her.
> 
> I suggest keeping silent to son about his choice. Stop trying to control the outcome of this situation...it won't work. Please be kind to dil and her mom. After all, dil may be in your family for a very long time...you never know.
> 
> If/when the day arrives that son finds himself dumped, be a support to him. That's what a good "mommy" does.
> 
> Finally, as much as you want to make this all about dil and her wicked mom, it's good to remember that this relationship story has been co-authored by both son and dil. I know as humans, we have tendency to stick up for our own and make the other person "all bad"...that's truly rarely ever the case.
> 
> I really hope that you find some peace in the coming weeks and months. Another poster suggested counseling for you- I have found counseling to be very helpful during my own difficult times. It might be a good option for you.
> 
> Take care...


They were never engaged without a ring. VH


----------



## VeryHurt

Back from the Bridal Shower:

No drama.
Her parents were cordial.
She greeted me with a kiss and said hello.

I was polite and mannerly as usual, I went to up to every single person that I did not know and introduced myself as "VH, son's Mom" and shook their hands.

They all seems pleased that I made an effort to introduce myself.

My son arrived at the end and thanked me for coming, walked me to my car and I drove 90 miles back home.

The End


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## introvert

VeryHurt said:


> They were never engaged without a ring. VH


 I guess I misunderstood your statement where you said your son was putting away money for a ring.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## VeryHurt

introvert said:


> I guess I misunderstood your statement where you said your son was putting away money for a ring.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He was putting away money for a ring but she did not know he was saving for one.


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## phillybeffandswiss

VeryHurt said:


> Back from the Bridal Shower:
> 
> No drama.
> Her parents were cordial.
> She greeted me with a kiss and said hello.
> 
> I was polite and mannerly as usual, I went to up to every single person that I did not know and introduced myself as "VH, son's Mom" and shook their hands.
> 
> They all seems pleased that I made an effort to introduce myself.
> 
> My son arrived at the end and thanked me for coming, walked me to my car and I drove 90 miles back home.
> 
> The End


Exactly how you should have handled it. Put on the happy face and if he fails, be there for him with some light admonishment.


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## Sammy64

She invited you AFTER you requested your 70K back ? ?


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## VeryHurt

Sammy64 said:


> She invited you AFTER you requested your 70K back ? ?


I am not sure what you mean. VH


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## Sammy64

After you asked her parents to give back your 70K and gifts, All of sudden she said that she was sorry, and you could come to her party?


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## FeministInPink

Sammy64 said:


> After you asked her parents to give back your 70K and gifts, All of sudden she said that she was sorry, and you could come to her party?


She's playing nice so she can keep the gifts and the money. It's completely disingenuous.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## Tron

Sammy64 said:


> After you asked her parents to give back your 70K and gifts, All of sudden she said that she was sorry, and you could come to her party?


That is how I interpreted it as well.

If true, and this is a $200k wedding, what a waste.


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## MyRevelation

VeryHurt said:


> Back from the Bridal Shower:
> 
> No drama.
> Her parents were cordial.
> She greeted me with a kiss and said hello.
> 
> I was polite and mannerly as usual, I went to up to every single person that I did not know and introduced myself as "VH, son's Mom" and shook their hands.
> 
> They all seems pleased that I made an effort to introduce myself.
> 
> My son arrived at the end and thanked me for coming, walked me to my car and I drove 90 miles back home.
> 
> The End


Sorry, but incoming 2x4:

I was sorry to read that you failed to defend the boundary you had established and went to the shower.

You had stood up to the princess, staked out your boundary, said you were done and asked for your money back, and then with one disingenuous phone call, you are back in the DRAMA. 

It is becoming obvious where your son learned to be a doormat.


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## VeryHurt

blueinbr said:


> Where is the happy couple going to live after the wedding? I know houses are expensive in NJ. Do they have an apartment? I hope they will not be living with HER parents.


Blu ~
Yes, everything in NJ is expensive. 
They will live in the beach house until it is sold. 
They are saving for a condo or small home.
VH


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## threelittlestars

They will never save if she is a mall chick, and spending 70k on a wedding....:/ Oiy. this will not end well. 

big hug VH, this is like the survivors in the life rafts as the titanic sinks.... There is nothing that can be done.


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## VeryHurt

I sent her parents an E-mail asking to hold my gifts and return my check ($ 500.00) after she told me that I was not welcomed to the shower.

She called to apologized and ask me to please come to the shower. 

My son asked me to please come to the shower.

Did I really want to go? No, not really. But I did it for my son and only child.

My parents divorced after 37 years of marriage and my siblings and myself were all in our 30's and it still hurt like hell.

My son has gone through this horrible divorce from the sidelines. He is hurting. He has been lied to by his own father. He got engaged and planned a wedding without the support and enthusiasm of his parents. It has not been easy for him as well.

Parents sacrifice for their children all the time. 

I am his only stable and loving parent right now. It should be a happy time in his life and it clearly is not. His father is a selfish lunatic. 

Now, if you wish to refer to me as a doormat that is fine. I found my actions to be that of a caring selfless Mom who wanted to put aside my feelings for my son's happiness.

It was my decision.


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## threelittlestars

I dont see you as a door mat. AT ALL. at this point going showed MORE strength than not.


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## FeministInPink

I don't think you're a doormat, either.

But I do think she's only playing nice to get the $$$ for the wedding. I don't think her reticence is sincere.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## MyRevelation

VeryHurt said:


> Now, if you wish to refer to me as a doormat that is fine. I found my actions to be that of a caring selfless Mom who wanted to put aside my feelings for my son's happiness.
> 
> It was my decision.


Yes it was. It may be the basic differences of how men and women handle issues like this, but I think you missed an excellent opportunity to give your son some tough love that he could really use.

I know how I would have handled it, as I have walked that walk before when my one real boundary was violated by my daughter. With the benefit of time and hindsight, it worked out well for us in our situation.

As parents, hopefully we've gained some hard earned wisdom along the way to at least warn our adult children of the minefield they may be approaching. Your son now has your implied consent to enter that minefield in front of him. In addition, you have also effectively enabled your entitled future and soon to be EX DIL to keep treating both you and your son with disrespect.


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## VeryHurt

FeministInPink said:


> I don't think you're a doormat, either.
> 
> But I do think she's only playing nice to get the $$$ for the wedding. I don't think her reticence is sincere.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Pinker ~
I agree with you and trust me, I am onto my future DIL.
VH will be stepping back on her generosity.


----------



## VeryHurt

MyRevelation said:


> Yes it was. It may be the basic differences of how men and women handle issues like this, but I think you missed an excellent opportunity to give your son some tough love that he could really use.
> 
> I know how I would have handled it, as I have walked that walk before when my one real boundary was violated by my daughter. With the benefit of time and hindsight, it worked out well for us in our situation.
> 
> As parents, hopefully we've gained some hard earned wisdom along the way to at least warn our adult children of the minefield they may be approaching. Your son now has your implied consent to enter that minefield in front of him. In addition, you have also effectively enabled your entitled future and soon to be EX DIL to keep treating both you and your son with disrespect.


I have spoken to my son and I plan to do so again regarding this fiasco. I will reinforce my disgust in my future DIL and will let him know that she better not ever speak to me disrespectfully again. I felt it was best to attend the shower and blast him when I see him in person this week when she is not around.

He does NOT have my "implied consent" at all. He is aware that I have concerns over their marriage. I have also warned him about getting a pre-nup. 

As a matter of fact, I was direct with him and he knows how I feel. 
Surely, I cannot make him CANCEL his wedding.

He has received ample "minefield" warnings from me.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

MyRevelation said:


> Yes it was. It may be the basic differences of how men and women handle issues like this, but I think you missed an excellent opportunity to give your son some tough love that he could really use.


 No, this isn't a male or female issue. She didn't miss anything at all. 



> I know how I would have handled it, as I have walked that walk before when my one real boundary was violated by my daughter. With the benefit of time and hindsight, it worked out well for us in our situation.


 You didn't attend your son or daughter's wedding or a wedding event?



> As parents, hopefully we've gained some hard earned wisdom along the way to at least warn our adult children of the minefield they may be approaching. Your son now has your implied consent to enter that minefield in front of him. In addition, you have also effectively enabled your entitled future and soon to be EX DIL to keep treating both you and your son with disrespect.


In regards to her son, her DIL learned how to treat her son like crap due to his action not Vh's. She learned that his mother will pull financing and opt out, if her crappy behavior continues. Her son has ZERO reason to believe in implied consent, unless he is a complete fool, since his mom attended a shower. She has educated him all through this fiasco and if he takes a small event as a sign of consent, then he deserves to be married to this awful woman.


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## Hope1964

Did you answer the question about the apology? I am curious what exactly the apology entailed. It was from your son's fiance, right? And not her mother?

I think you're a class act, going to the shower and being so well behaved. I would have been tempted to punch the b!tch in the face.


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## threelittlestars

What hope said.... ^ Class act all the way.


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## VeryHurt

Hope1964 said:


> Did you answer the question about the apology? I am curious what exactly the apology entailed. It was from your son's fiance, right? And not her mother?
> 
> I think you're a class act, going to the shower and being so well behaved. I would have been tempted to punch the b!tch in the face.


My son's fiancee called me up and said, "I am sorry things got out of hand and I did not mean to hurt you. Please come to the shower, I want you there. I do not want things to start off in a bad way."

My son then got on the phone and said, "Mom please come to the shower. You have to be there."

The eve of the shower was not the time for me to bust balls. 

I said, "Sure, I will be there."

He said, "I love you Mom."

She said, "I love you too."

I said, "See you tomorrow."

The End

VH


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## Catherine602

I don't think going to the shower makes you a doormat or puts your stamp of approval on the union. You did the classy and dignified thing. You were not the source of gossip. "his mother didn't show, why". Buzz buzz buzz 

VH my humble advice is to avoid saying anything negative about your future DIL and just comment on her behavior towards you. What good does it do to point out that the woman he loves is a nasty piece of work? 

You vent your anger but it does not stop things from proceeding and it will not turn your son against her. In fact, it may push your him away. 

I have no experience with a child marrying an unsuitable person. I am certain that I would fight to prevent the union just like you. But if I failed to persuade them to back out, I think my goal would be to keep the lines of communication open.


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## VeryHurt

Catherine602 said:


> I don't think going to the shower makes you a doormat or puts your stamp of approval on the union. You did the classy and dignified thing. You were not the source of gossip. "his mother didn't show, why". Buzz buzz buzz
> 
> VH my humble advice is to avoid saying anything negative about your future DIL and just comment on her behavior towards you. What good does it do to point out that the woman he loves is a nasty piece of work?
> 
> You vent your anger but it does not stop things from proceeding and it will not turn your son against her. In fact, it may push your him away.
> 
> I have no experience with a child marrying an unsuitable person. I am certain that I would fight to prevent the union just like you. But if I failed to persuade them to back out, I think my goal would be to keep the lines of communication open.


Smart woman Miss Catherine !


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## Tron

That was actually quite a graceful way to handle things VH.


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## just got it 55

VeryHurt said:


> Pinker ~
> I agree with you and trust me, I am onto my future DIL.
> VH will be stepping back on her generosity.


JSG I'm diggin that

You are really moving forward

Now put that POS IBRB in jail

55


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## turnera

Wouldn't that be nice...


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## VeryHurt

The wedding plans are in full swing folks.
Invitations went out today.
If everyone shows up, there will be 189 people there.

Hey anyone from TAM wanna come?

I am not actively involved anymore and I am not offering to help in any way.

I'll keep you updated.


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## turnera

Good for you.


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## 225985

VeryHurt said:


> The wedding plans are in full swing folks.
> Invitations went out today.
> 
> I am not actively involved anymore and I am not offering to help in any way.


Good for you VH. Attend the wedding. Be the proud Mother of the Groom. Detach from all the other BS. 


BTW: I did not receive my invitation. Hopefully you did not use the same company that sent out the TAM password emails. :smile2:


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## 225985

Bump

How is Son doing?


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