# Chronic diseases and divorce rates....



## McDean (Jun 13, 2015)

Just read that the national divorce rate for those with a chronic disease like MS or Fibromyalgia is 75%!!!!

On the sites for people who share these diseases they mainly talk about how their divorce was the result of an unsupportive spouse that either did not believe their disease was as bad as they said or simply did not want the extra responsibility.

However, reading for months on this site many of us are in the supporting spouse role and our ill spouse are so altered by their disease many of us are pushed away by them. I for one believe, or did, in the "in sickness and in health", but are we bad people if the disease and drug therapies and general wear and tear turn our spouses into someone we hardly recognize anymore? Is it wrong to consider the spouse you once knew as gone and the new person, someone you don't even like?

All thoughts and insights are welcome, my wife comes home tomorrow from 3 weeks away and I woke up this morning wishing she wasn't....


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

That's real nice to say about your wife. NOT What if you became sick? I bet she would be there to take care of you. What ever happened to those vows you took "In sickness and in health"? I have a feeling those divorce rates are high because more women get MS and Fibromyalgia so the husbands are taking care of them. Men are not as good as caretakers as women are so they get more frustrated and unhappy and leave to find a healthy women.


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## SawbladeLily (Oct 26, 2013)

All the statistics show that men are more apt to leave women who are sick than vice versa. Women are just wired to be caretakers. Men are not. And as a woman whose husband started a relationship with another woman while I was recovering from cancer surgery (final one over a two year period), it SUCKS. To have the insult of being sick and dealing with the whole "why me", AND to have the one person who should stand by you leave, adds insult to injury. 

But, having said that, yes, I agree that people change, and people can push other people away when dealing with illness. But to say that is reason to leave is not good enough. Counseling is important, and realization of those changes is very important. I will say I was not the same person while I was sick. I was a nervous, anxious WRECK. Before that I was very much the one who took care of everything at home and with the kids while my spouse was the money-maker. Now that I've gone through what I did, I also have had some very positive changes, and I know that in some ways, my STBX regrets that it went the way it did between us. Bottom line… I went through hell. He went through hell with me. He decided he couldn't' deal anymore. I got over it (not easy but simplistically stated), and now he is the bad guy AND he's lost his family. So think very carefully about reasons for not working things out with your wife. I've read some of your other posts, and I really believe that the two of you need to work things out together, like with MC. Both acknowledging issues and wanting to be responsive to the other's needs, otherwise it's just going to be a long and drawn out process that gets very frustrating.


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## Thinkitthrough (Sep 5, 2012)

Sawblade: I am on the other side. Wife developed fibromyalgia in '82. In 2009 she had a hysterectomy and as she felt her sexual desires declining she, as she said; "used what was left of her hormones and desires" to have a nine month sexual affair in 2010-2011. She decided to do this because I became ill and the Doctors thought I was going to die. She figured that it gave her a break from dealing with my condition, made her feel good and I would never know. He died, I didn't and we are working on it. I am neither a good guy or a bad guy, but there are days when I wish I had walked away.


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## SawbladeLily (Oct 26, 2013)

Holy Crap!


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## SawbladeLily (Oct 26, 2013)

I guess I have a harder time with the affair part than the part of needing a break. Everyone needs some respite from taking care of someone. But I'm also a " 'til death do you part" kind of person. In 25 years with my husband I have never even once wished I was with someone else. But I was the one who got sick, not him.

Now you have me wondering what if it had been the other way around….


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## McDean (Jun 13, 2015)

SawbladeLily said:


> I guess I have a harder time with the affair part than the part of needing a break. Everyone needs some respite from taking care of someone. But I'm also a " 'til death do you part" kind of person. In 25 years with my husband I have never even once wished I was with someone else. But I was the one who got sick, not him.
> 
> Now you have me wondering what if it had been the other way around….


All good statements. The key piece I have to take into account however is whether or not she will agree to MC and/or couples work at some point. Right now it feels very lopsided. She feels justified because she has 'had it so rough, for so long' and such....The person she has become through the meds and disease is not someone I like very much but for now I am practicing patience...


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

My ex dealt with two chronic illnesses, heart disease following a heart attack and chronic major depression. I stuck by him until I discovered he was a serial cheater. I didn't leave when he became verbally and emotionally abusive (that was stupid on my part). There were some medical personnel that suggested some of his verbal abuse and cognitive impairment was the result of the cardio-vascular illness, combined with the length of time on the by-pass machine during surgery. I thought I couldn't leave him if its his illness because I meant my vows. It just became worse and worse. The kids and I were afraid of his escalating temper. The one MC I could get him to go to reminded him that his illness was not a get-out-of-jail free card to abuse the world. The ex stopped going to MC.

There was an underlying entitlement to his abuse and cheating. It was as if he believed his illness ought to allow him to do whatever he wanted, regardless of who he hurt. When I reached the point that I could not stay, he blamed me and our kids for the D. Now he's a deadbeat dad, still under his cloud of entitlement, believing he shouldn't have to pay because his life is hard. He thinks he is the victim and that I ended the marriage because he's sick. He's well-enough to work a full-time job.

I don't know if he actually suffered cognitive impairment due to his illnesses, or if this was just who he was and I was blind not to have noticed. I meant my vows, but I could not take any more.


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## NotEZ (Sep 23, 2012)

Happilymarried25 said:


> That's real nice to say about your wife. NOT What if you became sick? I bet she would be there to take care of you. What ever happened to those vows you took "In sickness and in health"? I have a feeling those divorce rates are high because more women get MS and Fibromyalgia so the husbands are taking care of them. Men are not as good as caretakers as women are so they get more frustrated and unhappy and leave to find a healthy women.


You clearly have never spent a single day of your life on either side of this issue. Your comments on this subject are akin to me commenting on a thread created by a mother of 3 who's child was killed by saying " you have to get over it because your other kids need you". Easy to say from the outside, hard to do from the inside. 

Its very easy to state what you "would" do in a given situation when you are judging it from the "bubble" of your currently happy, "healthy" (physical) marriage. As long as your needs are being met, you can do anything for someone. The part you are missing, is that the situations in this thread are real RIGHT NOW and not after you are ready and/or prepared for them. 

Do you have kids? Cause if you do, I'm sure you can clearly see the difference between what you think you would feel if something happened to one of them and what you would say to a person who actually lost one. Would you say " I totally understand your pain?". Cause you couldn't possibly. No fictional situation you create will every amount to anothers real pain. 


Being the spouse of someone who is sick, literally means you are nothing. Your feelings don't matter, your needs don't matter, your wants don't matter. You said that yourself in your response to OP. What a **** head for not respecting his vows. If the illness takes away the love, care. respect, support that comes with the vows, does that not count as a violation? 


It is a very lonely life... supporting a sick partner. You live without everything while not having the right to ask for anything.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I don't think the "in sickness and in health" or "'til death do you part" are necessary or valid anymore. They made sense in a time when there were no alternatives. Now, we have health insurance, nursing homes and assisted living, home health care, hospitals, and Medicare and Medicaid. A loyal spouse is still a big plus when dealing with illness, but not as necessary as it once was. I think that it's not necessary to have two people living in misery because one is chronically ill and can't provide the normal and usual roles of marriage. And this is especially true if the couple is young. Older/longer-term couples may have a stronger bond and less to lose, so may decide to stay together regardless. It's a personal choice based on circumstances, and I don't think marriage should be an obstacle to making decisions that are right for the individual when there are huge long-term consequences involved.

I say that even though I've happily stayed in my relationship despite having to deal with an 8 year long debilitating and disabling illness, cancer (successfully treated), and two severe back injuries, one requiring multiple surgeries. Of course, none of these seriously affected our intimacy or sexual closeness, nor did they greatly affect our enjoyment of each other's company. We have discussed this extensively, though, and would not expect the other to stay if there were a permanent disruption of intimacy, or a hugely burdensome need for providing care. From a purely practical perspective, we could divorce, remain friends, help each other, and be free to pursue romantic and sexual needs elsewhere. Besides, there are financial benefits when divorced such as subsidized health insurance, and the former spouse can now be paid to provide supportive care and services whereas a married spouse will not receive those benefits.


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## McDean (Jun 13, 2015)

Wow, a lot of good input. It has given me a lot of food for thought. I know I can hang on for awhile longer, stick by her and see how it goes. She definitely is feeling some entitlement right now, everything is about her but not quite as bad as some of the descriptions above, she is still great with our daughter at least etc...Still, I want to be with someone that actually sees me as someone they want to be with, is worth fighting for and standing by as well. I fully realize her medical issues take a good portion of her focus but at some point if she really needs that she can be on her own to do it so I can move on with my daughter and I.....I fear letting my daughter see her mom act certain ways making the wrong impression on her....


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> I don't think the "in sickness and in health" or "'til death do you part" are necessary or valid anymore.
> 
> Why not? Don't take the vows if you aren't going to live honor them. My FIL took care of my MIL for 6 years until she passed away from early onset Alzheimers at age 64. So it would be ok for him to just dump her in a nursing home? My Uncle has been taking care of my Aunt who has MS for years. My other Aunt is taking care of my Uncle who has diabetes and can't walk.
> 
> ...


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Happilymarried25 said:


> Married but Happy said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think the "in sickness and in health" or "'til death do you part" are necessary or valid anymore.
> ...


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

For most of my married life, I have been on both sides of the coin. My wife suffers from fibromyalgia and I suffer from chronic cluster headaches. 

I have seen her, time and time again, wake up with her hands contorted in odd positions, shaking and crying because she can't make the aching and burning stop. I have seen her walk around the house like a zombie because she is completely physically and emotionally drained. 

And for years, she has watched me become completely sleep deprived because I wake up every night wanting, and sometimes trying, to rip my own eye out. One of the reasons I don't own normal firearms( only long barreled pellet rifles) is because I actually tried to drill through my temple one night with a pocket knife. I wished I had a hand gun. I wanted to remove that whole part of my skull. I would NEVER even consider that normally.

The cluster headaches came after a near death experience that caused some brain death. So, my wife saw the transformation. If she can stand by me through that, I can stand by her through fibro. 

I guess one of the reasons we are good for each other is that we both "get it". Not only do we both understand what it means to suffer, we listen to each other when one of us thinks of a possible way to eas the others pain. I trust her enough to try what she says, because despite the fact that I don't believe she could fully understand what I am going through, I know what it is like to feel helpless to help her. 

Anyone else, I don't trust so much. Mainly because they suggest a few things I have already tried and eventually start asking me if I think it's "all in my head". 

I'll tell you one thing, a good supporter is gold. They can make or break you when you are at your weakest. 


Now onto the controversial things I'm going to say... 

When someone suffers a chronic pain condition of any kind, they are often either so exhausted or so anxious about it that they don't think to do the things that actually help them. As a supporter, you should be finding ways to motivate them to do whatever helps them. Even if they don't want to do it in the moment. And even if the motivation you can provide seems harsh. 


If you do nothing, you may watch them spiral out of control. 

This is coming from someone who has observed and halted the spiral many times, and was pulled out of it all the same... 
we have both adopted a dedicated but rather firm stance on our issues. We will stand by each other as long as we are willing to try and improve our own suffering. But we had better damn well try.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## McDean (Jun 13, 2015)

"Now onto the controversial things I'm going to say... 

When someone suffers a chronic pain condition of any kind, they are often either so exhausted or so anxious about it that they don't think to do the things that actually help them. As a supporter, you should be finding ways to motivate them to do whatever helps them. Even if they don't want to do it in the moment. And even if the motivation you can provide seems harsh. 


If you do nothing, you may watch them spiral out of control. 

This is coming from someone who has observed and halted the spiral many times, and was pulled out of it all the same...
we have both adopted a dedicated but rather firm stance on our issues. We will stand by each other as long as we are willing to try and improve our own suffering. But we had better damn well try."

Regarding the above, I think it makes sense and is admirable. However, and part of what I think is different for those of us not ill at all supporting someone that is with disease like Fibro, she sees my suggestions and such as 'controlling', 'overbearing', 'pushy'.....in the beginning I think she saw it as support but perhaps I did too much but in hindsight I did not realize just how much of her 'executive functions' would up and stop. Things that were once simple for her like paying her bills became too much and I had to take over, but she had to miss a bunch first in order for her to see it as help from me instead of a control maneuver.

I've read enough on this site and others as well as articles etc. that I really believe sometimes, as sad as it might be, you can almost be more help to an ill spouse by being in the position of friend as opposed to spouse - you can be more pragmatic in your approach and less emotion once you have emotionally moved on of course. My wife just returned home last night and it was actually a warm reunion but to early to tell where this will lead. Lastly, if the ill spouse is the one who initiates the breakup, there isn't a whole lot you can do in the end....


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

As'laDain said:


> When someone suffers a chronic pain condition of any kind, they are often either so exhausted or so anxious about it that they don't think to do the things that actually help them. As a supporter, you should be finding ways to motivate them to do whatever helps them. Even if they don't want to do it in the moment. And even if the motivation you can provide seems harsh.
> 
> 
> If you do nothing, you may watch them spiral out of control.
> ...


This sounds so sweet, and naive. I don't mean to offend, but life is not always that simple. I know it worked for you, and for a couple of decades it worked in my marriage. I saw a change and pushed him to get the help he needed, and it worked. But the last time, all my efforts to help only increased his abuse. When I suggested he get out of bed, he told me to go to hell. When I suggested he go to the MD, he yelled I was stupid. When I actually made an appointment for him, he started throwing things.

I'm thrilled your efforts worked in your marriage.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

What was the consequence for refusing to get out of bed? For calling you stupid? For throwing things at you? When you are in agony, what do you fear more than the pain?


You see, I'm not as naive as you may think. I WILL leave someone if they will not do the work to keep living their life and improve their own happiness. 

But before I do, I am willing to make them even more uncomfortable than they already are in order to motivate them to not give up. And negative behavior will be met with unpleasant consequences.

My wife is the same way. Stating it out loud and consistently following through on our word to each other is the reason we always take each other seriously when we state our intentions to employ a consequence. Even if we are suffering terribly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

As'laDain said:


> What was the consequence for refusing to get out of bed? For calling you stupid? For throwing things at you? When you are in agony, what do you fear more than the pain?
> 
> 
> You see, I'm not as naive as you may think. I WILL leave someone if they will not do the work to keep living their life and improve their own happiness.
> ...


The consequence? I left the room when he yelled and threw things at me. Sorry, I am not manipulative and will not play mind games.

After his repeated refusal to take responsibility for his health, or his actions, we divorced.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Pluto2 said:


> Sorry, I am not manipulative and will not play mind games.


yeah, i find that one of my quirks is that i really have no qualms with it. i dont really see it as mind games, i do see it as manipulation, to an extant. 

i guess i have an odd view of it. i see human beings as being creatures that are manipulated more often than they arent, but only our environment, internal and external. the only thing we cannot truly manipulate is choices. we can only manipulate our environment and the environments of others. we can manipulate the emotions of others, since emotions are merely a way of giving meaning to the information we take in and are an extension of our circumstances, but we cannot manipulate choice. 

so i really have no problem with "mind games", if that is what you mean by clearly stated and premeditated consequential actions. and now that my wife has seen that she can play them too in order to effect a positive outcome, she has no problem with them either. 

my insanity is rubbing off on her. i guess it works for us. 
>


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

As'laDain said:


> yeah, i find that one of my quirks is that i really have no qualms with it. i dont really see it as mind games, i do see it as manipulation, to an extant.
> 
> i guess i have an odd view of it. i see human beings as being creatures that are manipulated more often than they arent, but only our environment, internal and external. the only thing we cannot truly manipulate is choices. we can only manipulate our environment and the environments of others. we can manipulate the emotions of others, since emotions are merely a way of giving meaning to the information we take in and are an extension of our circumstances, but we cannot manipulate choice.
> 
> ...


Hey, whatever floats your boat.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Married but Happy said:


> I don't think the "in sickness and in health" or "'til death do you part" are necessary or valid anymore. They made sense in a time when there were no alternatives. Now, we have health insurance, nursing homes and assisted living, home health care, hospitals, and Medicare and Medicaid. A loyal spouse is still a big plus when dealing with illness, but not as necessary as it once was. I think that it's not necessary to have two people living in misery because one is chronically ill and can't provide the normal and usual roles of marriage. And this is especially true if the couple is young. Older/longer-term couples may have a stronger bond and less to lose, so may decide to stay together regardless. It's a personal choice based on circumstances, and I don't think marriage should be an obstacle to making decisions that are right for the individual when there are huge long-term consequences involved.
> 
> I say that even though I've happily stayed in my relationship despite having to deal with an 8 year long debilitating and disabling illness, cancer (successfully treated), and two severe back injuries, one requiring multiple surgeries. Of course, none of these seriously affected our intimacy or sexual closeness, nor did they greatly affect our enjoyment of each other's company. We have discussed this extensively, though, and would not expect the other to stay if there were a permanent disruption of intimacy, or a hugely burdensome need for providing care. From a purely practical perspective, we could divorce, remain friends, help each other, and be free to pursue romantic and sexual needs elsewhere. Besides, there are financial benefits when divorced such as subsidized health insurance, and the former spouse can now be paid to provide supportive care and services whereas a married spouse will not receive those benefits.


I think your situation is unusual for a number of reasons, primarily because you are married without the life long commitment and you both agree with that. You each willingly give the other a "get out of jail free" card that either can use if needed. No need to worry about whether you can handle something for the rest of your life, since you have an out if the answer is yes.

Most couples are not in such a marriage, as it is distinctly different from a traditional marriage. Aren't you also practicing swingers? I think your perspective is interesting, but not likely very helpful the most married couples.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

SurpriseMyself said:


> I think your situation is unusual for a number of reasons, primarily because you are married without the life long commitment and you both agree with that. You each willingly give the other a "get out of jail free" card that either can use if needed. No need to worry about whether you can handle something for the rest of your life, since you have an out if the answer is yes.
> 
> Most couples are not in such a marriage, as it is distinctly different from a traditional marriage. Aren't you also practicing swingers? I think your perspective is interesting, but not likely very helpful the most married couples.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My situation is unusual, but really has nothing to do with the opinion I gave. As I said, I've stayed through more sickness than many people experience, but have done so because I chose (and choose) to do so, because it is the best choice in the circumstances - not because I have to or promised to. It's based on love and our bond - not obligation. It may not always be the most pragmatic choice, but our views are a balance of love and practicality which attempt to maximize well-being and happiness.

If you love someone enough to stay even in difficult times, that speaks to the quality of relationship, not to irrational obligation based on - IMO - archaic rituals. A great many people faced with difficult situations do leave - either because they aren't in love, or for pragmatic reasons. Sometimes it is also selfish - but some amount of selfishness is healthy for the individual.


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