# At my wits' end, need advice and outside perspective badly



## 838 (Jan 23, 2015)

i have been with my wife for now 12 years -10 of which in the marriage- and I am at my wits’ end.

Our sex life started out relatively well for 1-2 months after meeting and it went downhill from there. Let’s say that for the last 10+ years we had sex maybe once/twice a month (if that..) and sometimes we had dry months altogether. I can already hear some of you thinking: don’t complain, some people have it worse…. 

Let me tell you more: 

After the initial dating period I thought : I know sex is not great but I like and love her for other things: she has other qualities and values similar to mine and I stuck with her even though I had “to take care of myself” sexually even back then. Things only got worse from there: for the last 11 years the rare times we had sex has been only for quickies. Always in one- the same- position, even same same leg position etc.. She has refused any other positions for various reason: it hurts, can’t stretch, I’m uncomfortable, you’re just using me, there’s no connection, i’m not a doll etc. etc. 

No foreplay of any kind, EVER: she refuses to touch me and has not done so for 10+ years. Also she doesn’t want me to touch her as well because she is convinced that any intimate contact with my hands will give her a UTI or some infection. She has NEVER given me any oral and refused for me to go there . The excuse is again because of fear of infection or other reasons. The rare times we have sex - and I have to beg for weeks at the times for it - it is for a handful of minutes, if she has an orgasm she doesn’t say anything or make any sound , then I am pressed by her to be quick and get it over with. No talking (or dirty-talking), words or anything during the act otherwise she starts to complain that I’m “worse than a woman”. Afterwards she IMMEDIATELLY runs immediately to shower for fear of getting a UTI, the doctor- she says- told her to do so. ALso sex can only take place when she’s dirty and therefore planned when in need of a shower, not when she’s clean... 

Now, it would be easy to say that this situation was created when we had kids-6 and 3 years ago - and blame it all on hormones/birth/childcare/ etc.. but reality is I could have written this same exact post BEFORE our children were born. A few times I experimented waiting the 2 to 4 weeks that it takes her to build some sexual desire and coordinate a schedule for the kids to be with grandparents on a Saturday night and for us to be able to have a sort of date: dinner/movie and an empty house to do whatever we wanted: NOTHING CHANGED. I prepped it for days saying we can take our time, have our intimacy, go wild etc… RESULT: it was again a 5 min quickie to get over with, the quicker the better, right before her shower in order to go out for the date…. 

I am getting into the early 40s and I am sick and tired of finding occasions to hide and masturbate because my wife is giving me 5% (at best...) of what I’d need as a man. And This just starts to scratch the surface of the issue. I have been bringing up to her more and more that my needs as a man are nowhere near being met, I started telling her that she may have Low desire/libido and she was deeply offended. Said it wasn’t true. Said I was wrong. Said she had high libido. I directed her to read articles about this and it took weeks for her to even open the email with the links. I directed her here on this very FORUM asking her to read around for the many situations similar to ours and she got even more offended and said that this was for PERVS and not for normal people. She even refused to admit that we have an issue and she says I am the one with a problem and I’m “weirding her out” and to stop it .She accuses me of having a sex obsession (I guess implying that I’m some kind of perv…) 

I am finding myself more and more resentful to her, and this is years in the making…. her lack of care for this makes me not want to help her with the kids/meals/chores. I have never cheated on her -even when the situations would have make it very easy for me to do so- but I’m at my wit’s end here. SHe has progressively gained more and more weight and she has not take care of herself for years: the excuse is being busy with kids but when I take the kids -even at the gym- she finds all sort of excuses to not work-out. I look at her and I don’t even find her attractive anymore and if she were not my wife - and had I not committed for life to her, and her only-she would be near the bottom of the list of women I'd like to have sex with. 

On her turn she has been progressively more and more resentful to me and she treats me either with anger or contempt and is very often aggressive -verbally and physically- even in front of the kids, to the point that often times she behaves like a bully trying to pick a fight. We are in a downward spiral and I don’t know how to get out of it. I know that at the core of it all we have good feelings for each other but they are at the bottom of a pile of rubbish.

I have one priority in life provide my kids my a solid foundation for their growth and that mean having both parents in the house. But I don’t want to go on like this anymore and I don’t think that even forcing myself to accept it - as i have done for years- by body and mind can take it anymore. I am a breaking point and I need some change. Counseling is not an options right now because- even though we’re doing ok financially- we don’t have the chance to spend 200 to 400 a month on it. May be down the road but it’s be several months , not weeks.

Please help. Any advice is valued and appreciated.[/FONT]


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Has she ever had to feel the threat of losing you or is it more like she knows she can get away with this because she has gotten away with this for your whole marriage? 

I think it's easy to let our LD spouses get away with this because we ourselves want to stay married. I don't think LD is something that can be fixed unfortunately however the imminite threat of losing a spouse to divorce or infidelity can shake things up and start a dialogue sometimes. The 180 is designed for this purpose, all of a sudden being focused on yourself and not her. 

I'm somewhat in the middle of this myself. And it may not change your spouse (or it might) but you can at least make your own life more fulfilling and exciting. Less focused on what your life lacks. The neglectful (and I do feel it is neglectful) spouse suddenly shouldn't flatter themselves because you are no longer interested in them that way.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

OP, sorry you're here. Your story is very familiar to many of us on this forum, as many of us have lived through (or are still living through) the hellish nightmare you describe.

Why do people, such as your wife, even GET married if they are unwilling to have an intimate sexual relationship with their spouse?

I am a woman who was married to a very LD man for 20 years. We tried marriage counseling, sex therapy, I bought countless books on how to "revive" your sex life, bought beautiful lingerie, blah, blah, blah. I simply could not understand how a person can go months or even years without wanting that intimate connection with their partner. My husband's excuse was always "there's more to marriage than just sex." I agree with that, but sex is the glue that keeps you bonded to your mate. Without sex, you're just roommates.

When we did have sex, it's exactly as you describe. Same position, same length of time (less than 5 minutes ), no foreplay, no dirty talk, no real intimacy. Just a physical act. The funny thing is, he thought it was all "normal." The therapist looked at him like he was nuts.

I threatened divorce for years if the situation didn't change. The situation didn't change, and after 20 years I pulled the plug. I filed for divorce and have never looked back. My kids were 17 and 14 at the time.

I am in a 4-year relationship with a man who meets my needs in all ways -- sexually, emotionally, friendship, laughter, etc. He is an attentive lover and I am living my dream. Looking back, I simply can't believe how long I was willing to put up with my ex and his stupid ideas on what marriage is all about.

Your wife sounds very selfish and uptight. Just like my ex-husband.

I'm not necessarily advocating divorce. But in my case, my path to happiness came only after I shed the dead weight of my husband.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Why would you be resentful? You made the decision to marry her knowing she wasn't that into sex, now your po'd that she hasn't changed?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

happy as a clam said:


> OP, sorry you're here. Your story is very familiar to many of us on this forum, as many of us have lived through (or are still living through) the hellish nightmare you describe.
> 
> Why do people, such as your wife, even GET married if they are unwilling to have an intimate sexual relationship with their spouse?
> 
> ...


Why do people with a sex drive knowingly marry people without one and then b1tch abut it? Their sex life went down within two months yet he married her almost 2 years later. Why does she need to change? Maybe it's selfish of him to marry her knowing she was like this and then get resentful because she didn't change. What if she'd married him knowing he watched porn and then came in here to complain? She'd be told she knew this going in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Why do people with a sex drive knowingly marry people without one and then b1tch abut it? Their sex life went down within two months yet he married her almost 2 years later. Why does she need to change? Maybe it's selfish of him to marry her knowing she was like this and then get resentful because she didn't change. What if she'd married him knowing he watched porn and then came in here to complain? She'd be told she knew this going in.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think it is the bait and switch more than not.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Why do people with a sex drive knowingly marry people without one and then b1tch abut it?


I've said it many times on these boards. Many of us marry the "checklist" -- nice guy, good family, same religion, good career, good income, decent sex -- and fail to realize how absolutely crucial attraction and spark is for the long haul.

And our partners do a pretty good job fooling us into thinking it will all work out once life gets less stressful (wedding planning, career decisions, buying or building a home, etc.)

Why do we do it? We're young and naive, we want to believe in the dream of marriage, we could never fathom that our spouse would turn in to someone who could go months or years without sex. And we believe trite articles in stupid women's magazines -- "Twenty Ways to Spice Up Your Sex Life" or "How to Make Your Partner a Better Lover." 

If someone had told me "this man will only have sex with you once a year" I would have cancelled the wedding and run for the hills. *I honestly believed that our sex life would deepen, mature, grow richer and fuller over the years.* That seems like a very reasonable expectation to me at the time.

Instead it dried up to nothing.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> I think it is the bait and switch more than not.



How is it bait and switch? She dropped off sex after 2 months, and he married her anyway. And had kids with her. He had plenty of time to figure out she's not into sex, he flat out admits he loved her for other reasons. 

So if a woman sleeps with you once then cuts you off, you'll marry her anyway and complain?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Because attachments and love at first makes us see pass it. As bonds weaken, we lose the love goggles and the bond before was strong enough to sustain the love, but eventually, the feelings of love is harder and harder to maintain. Any relationship in the beginning, the love is easy to come by. As time progresses, it is harder and harder to maintain that love. The rush of hormones is significantly reduced. When you first date someone, that is pretty much the peak of sex your going to get. Dopamine is needed for sexual desire, and some people produce less than others. Couples need to go on dates, take dance classes together, find a way to bring some spark in their relationship.

It is not just sex either. One partner in the beginning of a relationship can do most of the house work, but over time, they start noticing the laziness of their partner. We are emeant to mate and multiply, so nature drugs us with hormones for those reasons. Being in love has some of the same effects as cocaine and other drugs on the brain.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

happy as a clam said:


> I've said it many times on these boards. Many of us marry the "checklist" -- nice guy, good family, same religion, good career, good income, decent sex -- and fail to realize how absolutely crucial attraction and spark is for the long haul.
> 
> Why do we do it? We're young and naive, we want to believe in the dream of marriage, we could never fathom that our spouse would turn in to someone who could go months or years without sex. And we believe trite articles in stupid women's magazines -- "Twenty Ways to Spice Up Your Sex Life" or "How to Make Your Partner a Better Lover."
> 
> ...


I understand, but you made that assumption. That's on you. I know we all do things when we're young and naive, but he certainly has no reason to be resentful of her for being exactly who she was when he married her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> How is it bait and switch? She dropped off sex after 2 months, and he married her anyway. And had kids with her. He had plenty of time to figure out she's not into sex, he flat out admits he loved her for other reasons.
> 
> So if a woman sleeps with you once then cuts you off, you'll marry her anyway and complain?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I guess sometimes one is simply not capable of making a proper informed decision early on. Once all the dust settles and you are more experienced and knowledgeable, the light suddenly goes off in your head.
Maybe they should give one "get out of jail free" card to each spouse on the alter.
It would be nice to get a "mulligan" in life.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

UMP said:


> I guess sometimes one is simply not capable of making a proper informed decision early on. Once all the dust settles and you are more experienced and knowledgeable,* the light suddenly goes off in your head.*


I agree, UMP. Most of us just can't fathom that a lover, partner, spouse could turn into an asexual lump. And we certainly don't have the wherewithal to visit a site like this BEFORE marriage. H*ll, internet forums didn't even exist when I got married!

It's only AFTER you realize something is seriously wrong that you start digging to find out what's happening to you. By then, it's far too late.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

838-- 

Ignore your wife. Set a goal of working on yourself hard for 6-12 months. Start by getting into the best possible physical shape you can be in. Everything else will flow from that. Confidence, ability to detach, etc.

No more dates, no more planning, scheming, etc to try to win her over or convince her to address her issues.

Just focus on yourself.

At the end of this period, look up and see where you are. She may see your improvements and try to move in your direction. Unlikely, but possible. 

Or she may do nothing. But you will have gotten used to ignoring her by then and it will be easier to make an independent decision.

I think that you will realize that the right decision is to leave her behind. But if you already had accepted that, you would not be here.

Don't focus on the outcome for now. Just build yourself up until you are ready to make that decision.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

838 said:


> ....I am at my wits’ end.
> 
> ...Let’s say that for the last 10+ years we had sex maybe once/twice a month (if that..) and sometimes we had dry months altogether.
> 
> ...


My heart goes out to you. I have been in a similar situation, but not as bad as yours. I was in a Sex Starved Marriage. With a great deal of effort, I was able to change myself, then with help my wife was able to change herself to preserve our marriage.

My advice to you is to first read three books: Sex Starved Marriage, by MW Davis, Hold Me Tight, Dr. Sue Johnson, 5 Languages of Love, by Dr. Chapman. 

I relate strongly to just about all you have said. My wife is very inhibited, had huge self image problems, would only touch me for the briefest periods of times during sex and that was rarely, would only do a very limited number of positions, and did complain about her fear of UTI's a lot.

Even so, I learned a few valuable lesson from my reading, my Get A Life program and the help I got from a Sex Therapist.

First, you wife is right in that she is not the total problem. It takes two to make a marriage and two to destroy a marriage. You need to drop your anger resentment and harsh feelings toward your wife. She knows when they are there. Yes, you can convince yourself that you are justified, but it isn't going to help anything.

One of my favorate Dr. David Schnarch-ism is that there is an LD and HD aspect in most parts of every marriage. Typically one partner is HD for chocolate ice cream and the other prefers vanillia. One partner may be HD in watching Sunday football and the other may be HD at watching operas. Sometimes the HD Sunday football partner doesn't watch football on Sunday during the summer, so HD can change from day to day, month to month. In short there is not "right" amount of Sunday football watching any more than there is a "right" amount of sex. All couples in marriage (if it is to work) need to find a compromise in all kinds of things from desserts, TV watching, to sex. Again, your telling your wife she is "wrong" or damaged goods is not helpful, because there is not right/wrong HD/LD that is universal, it is all about how the couple compromises and grows together and individually.

Next, if you have read 5LL or SSM, you should start to understand that you probably need to do a 180 and change the way you treat your wife. In particular, you need to accomplish two things. You need to show her that you are a different and better person and you also need to make her feel loved and willing (safe enough) to risk changing herself.

My W and I were on a downward spiral and it took month to turn it around and we darn near set a record in turning things around. It is going to take a long time to change 10 years of progressive paterns and conditioning, but you say you want to try to save your marriage for your kids, which is great. Just remember it is a marathon and not a sprint.

Finally, the cost of conseling. Yes, it is expensive. Yes, insurance will probably not cover it. However, my perspective is for you to look at what the cost of divorce attorneys would be (both yours and the attorney for your wife) and think about how better 1/10th of that amount would be spent on conseling as opposed to attorney fees and court costs.

May I suggest after you have read the books suggested and you have saved up for a few months, that you find a really good sex therapist. Go to them, even if your W refuses to go, maybe she will ultimately join you.

Good luck.


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## seattle_stranger (Nov 4, 2014)

_"You're worse than a woman."_



I am not one to quickly resort to saying this, and I've been quite vocal about how upset I get when people do suggest this kind of thing because I find it ignorant and disrespectful...........however...............if my wife had THAT little respect for me, to the point where she feels like can say something like that to me WHILE having sex, it would be over over over over over. I only say that because I honestly try to envision my own lady saying something like that, and as hard as it is for me to imagine, I still can confidently say our marriage would be over soon thereafter, and not just because she said that, it's because she gave a clear indication of the extremely poor state of our marriage. It sounds to me almost like your bedroom problems are simply a bi-product of bigger issues. Something has caused your wife to lose all respect for you and you need to figure out why.....or sever ties. I'm sorry to be saying those things, but man it sounds like she really thinks (or maybe actually does) have your balls in a vice grip.


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## 838 (Jan 23, 2015)

Guys,
I want to thank each and every one of you that read my LONG post and on top of that took time out of their day and their life to sit in front of a computer and type back to me their input/advice to help me out. Every word is highly appreciated. I am almost overwhelmed. I need to think over the many ideas you posted and tomorrow, after collecting my thoughts I'll write back. I was not expecting this. A thousand times THANK YOU !!!


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## 838 (Jan 23, 2015)

ok almost I feel the need to answer individually here, some of you were very insightful, some may have misunderstood, or I was not clear enough. 

2 things: HAppy as a Clam , are you my feminine “alter ego” ? every word that comes out of you seems like something i could have written… like seeing someone else express my own thoughts.


Miss Scarlett 
you may have a good point our most recent “good times” from a sexual point of view were a couple years ago when we had to spend 2 months apart and- knowing how “starved” i was she had sex with me once a day or so- right before leaving, for fear that I would cheat- and she said this openly, had no problem admitting it... 


Bad Santa 
I Did not think about this. I always felt ashamed for masturbating, as if guilty of doing it. Even though I was forced to it by her years of rejections. I have to bring up to the surface. In a broad perspective I think it would almost be good to be “caught” by her while doing it. My only choice is is my wife, if she turn me down over and over she is equally responsible for me masturbating. If i think of the reverse situation - my wife watching porn and rubbing herself of because I starved to sexually for years - I WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO SLEEP AT NIGHT OR LOOK AT MYSELF IN THE MIRROR OR CALL MYSELF A MAN.

Life is too Short and Lila, 

I think I need to explain myself better. The situation is not black and white as you understood it. My initial post was way too long when i looked at it so i trimmed many details that i felt were redundant, but - i see now-maybe it was better to leave them in because the simplified version i wrote may be misleading to some. 

ONE: when we met things were good even sexually. She was way way more in shape, happier with herself and uninhibited. SHE asked me to try anal and we did. I-kid-you-not . SHE asked me to take her to Swingers Clubs. I-KID-YOU-NOT ( I am 100% serious: this is not Dr Jakill and Mr Hide, this is the same woman-my wife- of my first post ). Her best friend at the time was a good looking, very sexually extrovert woman; an executive that made 6 figures per year and was into sex clubs, swinging etc. I think that that friend was the BIGGEST influence on her in the period when we met .I thought about this a million times in mind to figure out the reason of all this. MAybe she felt she had to catch up to the experiences of her best friend, … who knows... Anyway..Then ( not days or weeks) a few months later- and this is the true “moment of change”- she had a very bad UTI. it was so bad she immediately thought she got some STD and the wrath of God and been unleashed upon her. The doctor said it was just A VERY SEVERE UTI but nothing else. This is when the FIRST real change in her sexual behavior happened. But AGAIN not from DAY-TO-NIGHT, black to white, but rather in a very subtle, almost imperceptible, morphing shade of GRAY over the weeks the months and the years. And that slow but constant trend never reversed back other than rare moments. A frog in water would jump out if the water if it suddenly gets too hot but if you increase the temperature one degree per hour the frog feels no change and no need to jump out even when it's boiling. there's a skewed perception of change when you stretch it over the years

TWO: YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU DONT KNOW. you NOW can see - thanks to the benefit of the HINDSIGHT view- what followed what. But in real life, neither you nor me, know what’s going to happen to us tomorrow but we both hope for the best. When I started to take “care of Mylself” I thought it was just a rough moment she had, a bad phase, and then when she felt better/ when the stress was over/ when we had more money/ when we were finally living together/ when she got a better job/ when we got the new car/ when we got the security of marriage/ etc. etc. then things will finally get better. Things will then go back to the way they were. NOW - in hindsight -I know that they did not. i know NOW what followed, but not THEN. NOW i can see the trend, the excuses, and extract a common denominator unifying those events. only now, but not THEN. Plus, then, I WANTED to believe that things were going to get better, I WANTED to believe that her points were valid and not a series of excuses to avoid sex. 

Believe me, the last thing in the world one can accuse me of in the world is being a masochist. if I knew then what I know now I would have “ran for the hills” like Happy as Clam said. 

. 
NAive One Dave
I think you may have a VERY VERY valid point. her cousins lost TONS of pounds to find a date, marry him, and quickly went back to being their initial 100+ pounds overweight. 

I need to take care of the kids and I’ll reply to the rest of you later, thanks again to everyone. work in progress...


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## Sunshine69 (Oct 3, 2012)

happy as a clam said:


> OP, sorry you're here. Your story is very familiar to many of us on this forum, as many of us have lived through (or are still living through) the hellish nightmare you describe.
> 
> Why do people, such as your wife, even GET married if they are unwilling to have an intimate sexual relationship with their spouse?
> 
> ...


I find your post very similar to my situation but can I ask if you were still in love with your spouse at the end? I can't see my life without my husband because I'm so in love with him but the lack of sex and intimacy is really taking its toll on me. We've been together for almost 11 years and only 2 of those years was the sex decent. I've tried everything too spruce it up but now I am feeling a lack of self esteem and trying to lose a few lbs to create a spark. I just need to feel desired and a attractive again. I just don't know if I'm going to get that from him anymore. We've talked about it and he blames it on that he's just not that sexual and he's a little over weight and unhealthy but he has never gone for help after promising to.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

You are teaching your children that it is okay to accept this situation. Your daughters will treat their men like dirt and your sons will allow themselves to be treated like dirt.

Your wife is an emotional and physical abuser. She has nothing but contempt for you. She does not see you as a man but as the walking wallet and live in babysitter she can hardly stomach to look at. 

I hope I'm dead wrong but it wouldn't be a surprise if she's has been cheating all these years and treating you like crap to justify her cheating. Yes even fat women cheat.

Until you face the facts that you are codependent and willing to break the cycle, you are going to remain inside the hell of your own making. Your life, your choice.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

838 said:


> ok aHAppy as a Clam , *are you my feminine “alter ego” ? *every word that comes out of you seems like something i could have written… like seeing someone else express my own thoughts.


:lol:

I just may be!!


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## ThirtyYearsIn (Sep 20, 2014)

Check out Married Man's Sex Life and do the 180. Understand that it is for you, not her. She may realize she does not want to lose you. If not, you need to prepare for divorce and MMSL will put you in a better position. You are not doing your kids any favors by remaining in a stressful unhappy house because everyday you are showing them how to treat their spouse. They are learning habits that will sabotage their future relationships and perpetuate the cycle.


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