# BPD- how you get thru this part of the process?



## beatup (Apr 6, 2013)

This is my first post, but have been hanging around for a few months. I cannot tell you all how therapeutic it has been for me to have found this site. It has probably saved my sanity. Like many here, I’m dealing with a wife who has been BPD-like throughout our marriage (25 years). No, she hasn’t been diagnosed by anyone licensed, but a few examples of her events should convince anyone that if its not BPD, then it is a different PD. I want to thank those here who have shared their experiences. Without your courage to bear your stories to this community, folks like me would be floundering, wondering about our own state of mind. 

It is encouraging to hear how some of you are able to keep such an objective view of a volatile relationship. I don’t feel like I have the perceptive capabilities that some of you obviously have –but I’ll keep hanging around to gain a more keen awareness in my relationship. 

So, in the last 12 months I have figured out that the prior 24 years has been a journey through life with someone who has a PD. After 24 years of thinking things will get better my optimism has exhausted. Like someone else here said, I feel kind of stupid that it has taken so long to figure out what was really going on. Today, I know what the options are, but still keep asking, “Now what do I do?” I’m not looking for answers, but, rather, advice on how you go through this part of the process.


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## ileft (May 3, 2013)

beatup, can you watch from 4:14 of this video:
Personality disorders of a dangerous woman - YouTube

Does it describe your wife?


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

Dunno. What do you mean by process? Do you mean figuring out what to do next?

If so, the basic practice is to not do nothing.

(a) therapy is good - anyone who stays with a BPD is probably crazy.
(b) boundaries are good - to help escape from the chaos and find some peace
(c) then, it is important to figure out what you want.
(d) and then make plans to achieve that desire.
(e) and then evaluate how well those plans are going...just like life.

--Argyle


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## beatup (Apr 6, 2013)

2galsmom said:


> As you live off your optimism that they will change and be healthy you inevitably are forced to change your thought process to match theirs and the results are damaging to you and all of the people you love.


2gals: I think that's part of what I am struggling with right now -how much have I given over? How do I prevent it from further consuming me? I guess this is all part of questioning your own sanity. I know it will take some time to figure it out. It's taken 25 years to get here.


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## beatup (Apr 6, 2013)

ileft: I've gone through all the checklists. As I match them up to some of my diary notes, its chilling that the observations I made 10 and 15 years ago match up. Yes, IMO, she is on the BPD continuum. She doesn't show 100% of the traits, but splitting, blaming, rage, denies any part in the state of our marriage, doesn't ask for forgiveness, etc.


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## beatup (Apr 6, 2013)

argyle: Thanks for the reminder not to do nothing. Figuring out what to do and making a plan would be easier without having three children at home. Plus, I vowed to be with her for life -thick and thin. I know this situation is nothing new in this community -but still quite a dilemma at the individual level.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Beatup, welcome to the TAM forum. I'm sorry to hear that you believe your W has strong BPD traits. I agree with all the advice given above by Argyle and 2Gals.


beatup said:


> Figuring out what to do and making a plan would be easier without having three children at home.


Of course, you should do whatever is in the best interests of your children, if they are minors. One issue, then, is whether they are likely to be better developed by being in a normal healthy environment 50% of the time (i.e., with you in another home) or being in a dysfunctional environment 100% of the time (but with your protection and oversight for 100% also). Only you can answer that question.


> I vowed to be with her for life -thick and thin.


Yes, but "thick and thin" does not include strong verbal and emotional abuse by a woman who refuses to take advantage of the excellent treatment programs available for BPDers. Moreover, the "thick and thin" is intended to apply to a husband/wife relationship, not a toxic parent/child relationship. I say "parent/child" because, if your W does have strong BPD traits, her emotional development likely is frozen at the level of a four year old.

Further, by continuing to protect a BPDer from suffering the logical consequences of her bad behavior, you likely are harming her rather than helping her. I say this because, as long as you continue enabling her to get away with acting like a spoiled child, you likely are destroying her chances to confront her issues and learn how to manage them. 

That is, she will have no incentive to confront her issues as long as you continue to walk on eggshells around her. In addition, your efforts to sooth her likely are counter-productive because, as you already know, your presence in the home serves as a trigger for her two great fears (abandonment and engulfment). 

Another important issue, then, is whether her BPD traits are at a strong level or, rather, a mild to moderate level. Again, that is a question that only you can decide (ideally, with candid advice from a psychologist who is ethically bound to protect only YOUR best interests because he has not treated or seen your W).


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

Regarding the children, try googling:
Adverse Childhood Experiences, Turning Gold into Lead - some of the strongest associations I've ever seen.

If you make reasonable assumptions about statisticians, the approximate conclusion is that:
(a) divorce, mental illness, partner violence, physical abuse, emotional abuse, and sexual abuse, et cetera are bad for children - and also comparably bad - and nonlinearly additive.

So, the child of divorced parents has modestly bad outcomes. But, the child of a mentally ill parent with a history of partner violence and emotional abuse has very bad outcomes.

On a personal note, try visiting BPDFamily in the children of BPDs section. Those people aren't well. Not even close to well.

So, there are several options:
(1) Staying (try totaling up the points)
(2) Leaving, joint custody (dunno...try averaging the points)
(3) Leaving, sole custody (hard, but sufficient documentation may help if she is appreciably abusive) (police reports are useful) (so is talking things through with a lawyer) (and this does depend on your children's age...) On the bright side, if gathering documentation regarding unfitness isn't easy, she may well not be unfit.

So, that part is simple. Painful, but simple.

Next, there's the marital vows. There's kind of three options.
(1) Stay, and enable. That means letting her rage at you and cleaning up for her mistakes. That's bad for her. And you. Not a good option.
(2) Stay, and maintain good boundaries. By stay, btw, I mean not immediately divorcing her. That isn't the same as staying in the same house with someone raging. The zero order is that out of control rages result in either you and the children leaving or, if in front of your kids, that she goes to jail to cool off. And that you leave until she cools down. The first order is that abusive rages result in walking out. The third or fourth order is looking at how and whether or not you contribute to dysfunction. A therapist can help. Validation can be a useful tool.

By the way, unless you are quite stable mentally, this is usually difficult and painful enough that it isn't doable. Basically, if you have a significant mental issue (eg, depression), staying isn't practical. Then, default to (3).

(3) RADLB: Run, and Don't Look Back: This is what rational people do with BPDs. You haven't, for 25 years, so a bit of therapy wouldn't go amiss.

There are tables in DSM V to judge severity, if I remember rightly. My personal reference is:
Assume she gets a parking ticket...

Does she:
(a) Grumble
(b) Pick a fight with her husband
(c) Chase the meter maid and yell at her
(d) Assault the cop

(a)==normal
(b)==a bit neurotic
(c)==quite a bit neurotic
(d)==crazy

--Argyle


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## ShockwaveRider (Jun 21, 2013)

2galsmom said:


> Living with someone with a PD takes away your ability to think clearly and objectively. Often you end up losing your sense of right and wrong. As you live off your optimism that they will change and be healthy you inevitably are forced to change your thought process to match theirs and the results are damaging to you and all of the people you love.


I wish someone had expained this to me so eloquently 21 years ago.

Still trying to rattle the "defective thinking" out of my head.

Shockwave


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

2galsmom said:


> Living with someone with a PD takes away your ability to think clearly and objectively. .


Ehem.

I am not so sure I agree. My lovely wife has BPD and one of the best ways of coping is to think clearly and objectively.

Clear and objective thinking allows you to present reality vs tell the BPD what they want to hear... Allows you to pick your fights rather than try to win them all or give in to all, and so on. This is by design, as the way to survive living with a BPD is to remove as much emotion from the picture as possible... 

That's how it's been for me at least.


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## beatup (Apr 6, 2013)

The three kids are in later teens. Only a few more years to cover for them. Although, I do see the impact on the boys of W's disrespectful treatment of me. If there is no respect of Dad by Mom, then why should we? 

Any effort on my part to impose boundaries or consequences to her behaviors is not well accepted. 

Just read about the validation approach in "Walking on Eggshells". I'll see if I can work it, but I'm not sure I get this validation thing when you're dealing with someone who doesn't respect rules of honest communication. Any attempt to bring things to a reasonable conversation about her behaviors turns into a whirlwind of circular logic, endless rabbit trails, and all roads leading to blame me. I cannot string a comprehensive thought together before she's off to her next rant. What I'm doing is not working. She walks away each time seemingly more hardened. 

To the point made about dealing with a 4 year old, maybe I am expecting too much as far as rational conversation. And I guess that's where the validation comes in, right?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

beatup said:


> To the point made about dealing with a 4 year old, maybe I am expecting too much as far as rational conversation. And I guess that's where the validation comes in, right?


Beatup, my experience is that learning the validation techniques (such as those espoused in the _Eggshells_ book) likely will help if your W has mild to moderate BPD traits. If they are strong, however, the validation is unlikely to result in a substantial reduction in the abuse heaped upon you. 

One reason is that a person with strong traits is unable to trust you and thus will not believe you when you attempt to validate her. Another reason is that, even when you do manage to make her feel better, it will all be washed aside when the next intense feeling is flooding her mind. Because BPDers (i.e., those with strong traits) are very reactive to whatever feelings they are experiencing at the moment, it is impossible to build up a store of good will on which you can later draw.


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## beatup (Apr 6, 2013)

Thanks for the thought-provoking responses Uptown.

The question I have at this point is, can she have strong BPD traits and still be a high-functioning? My wife is what I consider high-functioning. Anyone outside of me (friends, acquaintances at church, school, etc.) think she’s the sweetest thing on earth. Even the children don’t seem to really notice –although my second daughter has always had natural boundaries with everyone, my wife included, and has a low threshold of tolerance for W's borderline-abusive approaches. W’s physical violence against me stopped early on in the marriage when I called the police on her. She occasionally kicks, throws things, dumps things over. There is no pattern of self-destructive behavior. It is the vitriol she has for me in these split times where she conjures things from the past, mischaracterizes me, twists the things I say, and has absolutely no sense of me having any redeeming qualities. Then, some time passes with the cold treatment (sometimes days, sometimes weeks) and then she slowly slips back into a pattern of personalities. It goes something like this: the “victim”, the “just business”, the “mild soft-spoken”, then the 50-some year old adult –until the next event.

As far as trust -there isn’t any on either side at this point. I have tried for all our marriage to get her to see that in ANY relationship, BOTH people are responsible for its state. She refuses to take any ownership. She is very insecure. I just don’t know how to break through it. I’ve tried to feed her needs, but to no effect.


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## beatup (Apr 6, 2013)

Uptown said:


> . . . it is impossible to build up a store of good will on which you can later draw.


Amen, brother.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

beatup said:


> The question I have at this point is, can she have strong BPD traits and still be a high-functioning?


Yes, absolutely. A person can be high functioning even when the traits are so strong that a person is diagnosed as having full-blown BPD. Indeed, the vast majority of BPDers (those with strong traits) are HF. Prior to 2008, this was not apparent because all prevalence figures were obtained from small studies of BPDers showing up for treatment at clinics, hospitals, and therapists' offices. Not surprisingly, most BPDers seeking professional help are in such deep pain that they are LF. It therefore was believed for decades that only 1.5 to 2% of the population had BPD and nearly all of them seemed to be LF.

In 2008, however, the results of a multi-year study of nearly 35,000 American adults showed that 6% of the population had full-blown BPD. Unlike the clinical studies which had considered only those miserable enough to be seeking therapy, this expensive large-scale study (funded by NIH) was based on randomly selected individuals who were evaluated by professionals in face-to-face interviews (together with other testing). See Prevalence, Correlates, Disability, and Comorbidity of DSM-IV Borderline Personality Disorder: Results from the Wave 2 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions.

It found that the vast majority of BPDers were folks who were sufficiently functional that they were not seeking therapy and had not been seen by any of the clinical studies. In this regard, Randi Kreger (author of _Stop Walking on Eggshells_) states:_There is no research on higher-functioning BPs. It doesn't exist. This population is invisible to 90% of the clinical world, and as they get higher and higher up the food chain there is less and less awareness of this population. In a phone seminar conducted by Robert Friedel, MD (who is on the board of the National Education Alliance for Borderline Personality Disorder, NEABPD.com) echoed the fact that while this population is "invisible to the clinicial population," every else knows about them._ See Krieger's 2/5/10 post at Age: Do the symptoms of BPD improve/worsen with age?.​I caution that, because BPD is a spectrum disorder, the 6% figure includes only those HF and LF folks satisfying 100% of the diagnostic criteria for "having BPD." This means that there are many people having strong traits that fall short of that diagnostic threshold. Yet, a person exhibiting 70% or 80% of the criteria may be nearly as difficult to live with as someone exhibiting 100%. This is why a diagnosis of "not having BPD" does NOT necessarily mean that a BPDer spouse won't make your life miserable if you continue to live with her.


> My wife is what I consider high-functioning. Anyone outside of me (friends, acquaintances at church, school, etc.) think she’s the sweetest thing on earth.


None of those folks pose a threat to her two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. There is no close relationship to be abandoned and no intimacy that could trigger the suffocating feeling of engulfment. This is why it is common for a BPDer to be kind and caring all day long to complete strangers and then go home at night to abuse the very people who love her.

As to your W's acquaintences believing "she's the sweetest thing on earth," they likely are correct -- for the context in which they always see her. BPDers are NOT bad people pretending to be good. Indeed, they are not bad people. Their problem is not being _"bad"_ but, rather, _unstable_. Hence, when they are splitting a person white, they generally are good and, if they love you, they are very VERY good during those times. 

If your friends find that difficult to believe after you tell them how you are abused when being split black, remind your friends that two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both had full-blown BPD (if their biographers are to be believed). When a BPDer is behaving good, she generally is very VERY good. Indeed, I usually find HF BPDers to be a lot more fun to be around than "Nons" (i.e., nonBPDers).


> There is no pattern of self-destructive behavior.


As you already know, Beatup, it is unusual for a HF BPDer to exhibit strong self-destructive behavior. But it may temporarily occur during a highly stressful time, e.g., when you threaten to leave her. When that happens, the HF BPDer can temporarily become LF by turning her anger inward on herself. With my exW, for example, I saw her do that several times in 15 years. It is a very frightening thing to observe because you are seeing someone disintegrate before your own eyes.


> It is the vitriol she has for me in these split times where she conjures things from the past, mischaracterizes me, twists the things I say, and has absolutely no sense of me having any redeeming qualities.


This, of course, is why BPD is said to be a "thought disorder" that distorts one's perceptions of other peoples' intentions and motivations. But you clearly already know that.


> Then she slowly slips back into a pattern of personalities. It goes something like this: the “victim”, the “just business”, the “mild soft-spoken”, then the 50-some year old adult –until the next event.


This is why it is common for the abused spouses to complain that it seems like they are living with a person who is "half-way to having a multiple personality disorder." Indeed, I made that very comment many times to the six psychologists/psychiatrists I took my wife to for 15 years.


> As far as trust -there isn’t any on either side at this point.


If your W has strong BPD traits, she will be incapable of trusting you (unless she has many years of intensive treatment). Sadly, this means that you can never trust her, because she can turn on you with a vengence at any time -- and certainly will do so, as you already know. This means that, absent treatment, she cannot even be your friend. Friendship, like all other long-term relationships, must be build on trust.


> I have tried for all our marriage to get her to see that in ANY relationship, BOTH people are responsible for its state.


Yes, it takes two willing people to create and sustain a toxic marriage for 25 years. Her contribution to the toxicity (e.g., her childish tantrums) is easy for you to see. YOUR contribution, however, is much more difficult to see. After all, you are "only trying to help." If you've been living with a BPDer for that long, you almost certainly are an excessive caregiver like me. This means that you are willing to keep helping a person even when (a) it is to your great detriment to do so and (b) you've never found a way to actually help her. We do this, I understand, because our desire to be _needed _(for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be _loved_ (for the men we already are). We therefore mistake "being needed" for "being loved."


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## beatup (Apr 6, 2013)

Uptown said:


> . . . her two great fears: abandonment and engulfment.


Is it always abandonment and engulfment that underlie their condition? Is it always both? How do we know that? Her history has some of the leading indicators that fit the profile -father died when she was a young girl and her mother was an alcoholic. How do I have discussions with her that would allow me to understand what are her fears?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

beatup said:


> Is it always abandonment and engulfment that underlie their condition? Is it always both?


Beatup, the twin fears of abandonment and engulfment are normal fears we all have to some degree. At issue, then, is whether both of these fears are at an abnormally strong level in adult BPDers. The prevailing view, as I understand it, is that both fears are very strong. The result is the push-you-away and pull-you-back cycle that BPDers are notorious for. 

That cycle occurs because the two fears lie at opposite ends of the VERY SAME SPECTRUM. This means that, as you back away from closeness to avoid triggering her fear of engulfment, you necessarily are drawing closer to triggering her great fear of abandonment. Sadly, there is no midpoint position -- not too close and not too far away -- where you can safely avoid triggering both fears. I know only because I wasted 15 years trying to find that Goldilocks position.


> How do we know that?


We don't know. Nobody does. The cause of BPD behavior has not yet been determined to a certainty. What I am describing, then, is my understanding of the psychiatric community's prevailing theory, which is strongly supported -- but not yet proven -- by the results of numerous empirical studies. Such studies have established strong _correlations_ but cannot, by themselves, establish _causation_.


> How do I have discussions with her that would allow me to understand what are her fears?


If she has strong BPD traits as you suspect, you probably cannot have such discussions. One problem is that a BPDer is so filled with self loathing and shame that her subconscious works 24/7 to protect her from feeling those painful emotions. It does this by projecting painful feelings and bad thoughts onto her spouse. 

It therefore is unusual for a BPDer (especially a high functioning one) to have sufficient self awareness to be able to tell you the true source of her fears (which arise from traumas in early childhood). My best guess is that perhaps as many as 3% or 4% of BPDers have such self awareness. Hence, although a BPD may be fully convinced that your minor comment or infraction is the source of her anger, that event only served as the trigger for a release of anger she has carried since early childhood.

BPDers nonetheless do have rare "moments of clarity" where they realize they've done things wrong and have irrational fears. My BPDer exW, for example, had several such moments during our 15 year marriage. It occurred when she had gotten into so much trouble with me (e.g., with me discovering another secret credit card with a $5,000 unpaid balance) that she turned her anger inward onto herself. Such times are rare, however. Moreover, whatever insight the BPDer has during those moments is quickly washed aside -- within days if not hours -- by the next tide of feelings flooding her mind.


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## tagearl (Dec 21, 2013)

Maybe I can join this thread….

Sitting on the fence. and watching all aspects of my home life (with a undiagnosed but acting BPD wife) turn into things I never imagined.

The great start, followed by the anger, the sulking, the depression, the empty relationship, the denial etc etc etc.

This board has given me so much insight into what is (probably) going on that I am doing OK. So thanks to everyone, in particular Uptown whose comments to JMDreamer opened my eyes to the strange world of borderlines.

I have backed off. To start with just physically, but my emotions followed along too and while not yet out of the door I am wondering when to bail.

Havent’ managed to work out validating. Don’t get it in a big enough way for it to have any impact. Do validate (with feeling) with no real upside, but doing nice things normally gets me into trouble (I am now beginning to realize). I’m not an out and out carer, but I can do a bit.

Cooking the kids’ breakfast gets me the ice treatment (every time), while our fab dins last night with Champagne got me real grief.

No dialogue ever happens so we go round and down in circles.
I get out for a few days at a time (no deal involved just simple escape for me) and generally the tone on my return is it was nice to have you out of the house!

We are distant, have been since moving in together after the wedding. Maybe she just doesn’t love me anymore. I ask her and she says she does. And when I’m away I get sweet texts!!!!

Wedding was about 3 years ago. Bad wedding night and downhill ever since. We have a little girl, nearly 5, which makes me think very carefully about divorce. I’m a hands on dad. I’m 56 and the idea of starting over is not really exciting.

I don’t actually want out, but I don’t want to live this mess any more. So I have arrived at a place where some major decisions have to be made. 

Separated from previous relationship and shared a kid happily and in retrospect everyone was a winner. For some reason this one is more unpredictable and scary.

She appears to have no understanding that I am unhappy. I have told her for quite a while ( a couple of years) but with no effect. So suddenly to pitch up and say divorce I really do not know how to prepare, or what to expect as a reaction.

I've seen a lawyer for that side of things, it is the human side that worries me.

In fact a few weeks ago I was about to dtell her of my decision, but a little voice inside my head said read a bit. In those days I figured I was dealing with ‘simple’ depression. My reading flagged up possible suicide and wife leaving with kids, so I backed off. The reading also brought me into the whole world of the borderline.

Maybe there’s a discussion already covering all of this, in which case pls excuse clumsy entry and pls point me in the right direction, if not any experiences or pointers on getting out would be very welcome.


Thanks for listening.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> So thanks to everyone, in particular Uptown whose comments to JMDreamer opened my eyes to the strange world of borderlines.


Tagearl, welcome to the TAM forum. Thanks so much for the kind words. I'm glad to hear you found the BPD information helpful. I am surprised, however, that you ever managed to stumble upon those old posts of mine. They were written back in May 2011. After hunting, I found them at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/physic...ikely-denial-refuses-get-help.html#post329113.


> Any experiences or pointers on getting out would be very welcome.


Tagearl, I offer several suggestions based on my experience in leaving my exW. By "leaving my exW" I mean her having me arrested on a bogus charge and thrown into jail for three days, during which time she obtained a R/O barring me from returning to my own home until the D was finalized. So the following is a case of "do what I SAY," not "do what I actually DID."

*As an initial matter,* Tagearl, I recommend that you NOT tell your W about your suspicions. If she is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer. Instead, simply encourage her to see a good psychologist (not a MC) and let the psych decide what to tell her.

*Second,* I suggest you read the book, _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder._ If your W is a BPDer (i.e., has strong traits), the divorce almost certainly will get nasty really quick. Because BPDers do splitting, she likely will split you black, perceiving you to be Hitler incarnate -- and will treat you in a manner appropriate for Adolph.

*Third,* I suggest you start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com -- the largest and most active BPD forum I've found that is devoted fully to the spouses and family members of BPDers. This issue is such an enormous problem that that website is growing by 20 new members every day. The result is that it offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. The ones that likely will be most helpful to you are the "Leaving" board and "Parenting after the Split" board.

*Fourth,* while you are at BPDfamily.com, I suggest you read the excellent articles in their resources section. My favorite is article #9 at T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York. I also recommend Kathy Batesel's blog at Borderline Personality Disorder and Relationships.

*Fifth,* I suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your children are dealing with -- and how likely it is she may pass it on to your kids. As I've explained in many other threads, your best chance of getting a candid opinion regarding a possible BPD diagnosis is to NOT have the BPDer along. Therapists are loath to tell high functioning BPDers the name of the disorder.

*Finally*, please don't forget those of us here on the TAM forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences here, you likely are helping many other members and lurkers.


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## tagearl (Dec 21, 2013)

Hi Uptown and so happy to have you about. Thanks again.

Yep the thread "Wife depressed (likely), is in denial, and refuses to get help" really struck a chord, even down to the 'why do you want it?' in reply to the hidden PC!!! 

I have already been lurking on BPD family, but I have to say I like the layout here, and also I feel the quality of the contributors as good as any I have ever encountered. (BTW I have no angle, just help and self preservation). But I will check back over there.

Think I've already been awarded the black hat - strangely I get called Hitler with ease, likewise the term brainwashing gets sent in my direction.

But how do you get someone to see a psychologist when according to them there is NOTHING wrong! Ever! 'I'm fine' says W with a face contorted in a mix of fear anger and sadness.


I did get an admission of depression a couple of weeks ago, and I thought this would lead to something useful. I was wrong. I got a rictis smile for about 10 days, and the assurance that everything would now be better. It isn't.

Yes or no? is another regular part of our discussions.

On a recent animated session (I am not always able to keep cool, but probably getting better at it) the answer to my unhappiness at our disintegrating relationship was, "if you don't like it leave, I won't stop you."

How can this be interpreted?

I have given no threats, or ultimatums, as my own plan is not yet clear, and I am not convinced such ways are constructive.


Thanks again to all its nice just to be able to get this stuff out.

Tag


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

tagearl said:


> But how do you get someone to see a psychologist when according to them there is NOTHING wrong! Ever!


You don't, Tag. Moreover, insisting that she go to a psychologist as a condition of your staying with her would almost certainly result in a huge waste of time and money. If she has strong BPD traits, treatment will not work unless she badly wants it for herself. Sadly, the chances of that happening are extremely low. 

A BPDer is filled with so much self loathing that her subconscious mind will protect her fragile ego from seeing too much of reality. It does that by projecting all problems and mistakes onto her spouse and other people. This is why nearly all high functioning BPDers are notorious for having very little self awareness. Further, even in the rare cases where the self awareness is present, the BPDer must also have the ego strength needed to tolerate intensive therapy for it to be successful.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The answer is straight out of an elementary school recess. If said HF BPD acts out respond in kind. A tantrum for a tantrum etc. Eventually a non BPD has higher ability to handle those than a BPD so after a while they won't start as many tantrums if the result is always the same. This worked for me at least. We cut down tantrums from several a week to once a month or two months. Unfortunately there were other side effects that are definitely not part of a healthy relationship - like one with a BPD can ever be healthy - but so be it. 

All that, no validating, and calling out any out of line behavior are not easy to manage. Leaving is easier.


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## tagearl (Dec 21, 2013)

> John117
> If said HF BPD acts out respond in kind. A tantrum for a tantrum etc.


this happens quite a lot with us too, but from what i've been reading we (nons) are supposed to be more caring and say things that demonstrate empathy and validation!

I haven't had much success with the caring route to be honest.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

tagearl said:


> this happens quite a lot with us too, but from what i've been reading we (nons) are supposed to be more caring and say things that demonstrate empathy and validation!
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't had much success with the caring route to be honest.



I'm very caring and can charm a lot of people into doing my bidding and can validate with the best of them. But she is not a doe-eyed intern or new hire I have to mentor but a battle hardened HF BPD who won't listen to reason.

Showing you care is noble, and indeed when it comes to physical issues I have played Florence Nightingale one too many times to others. But as you said the caring route may not lead to success.

They need to understand that bad behavior will not be tolerated, then maybe they'll do less of it..


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## tagearl (Dec 21, 2013)

Have done some more reading thanks for links.

Have also noticed some changes of late. It would seem things are generally calmer.

Now for some months I have pulled back. 

No physical contact and little eye contact. (Still in the same bed but big enough so we don't touch). 
Conversations are about shopping, kids, cars, clothes, furniture etc etc etc nothing personal.

Her occasional outbursts are handled head on and dealt with, then I leave the room.

Normally she will come and find me with a gentle (non angry) tone, and tell me about her girlfriend's new job or something.

We go round in little circles like this several times a day. 

So maybe this is a way to calm things down.

It's manageable, but is it what I want from a relationship.

Not really.

But at least while I'm sitting on the fence I'm not getting beaten up.

Thanks for listening and happy new year.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Tag, thanks for giving us an update on how your relationship is going. Am glad to hear that you're not being beat up at the moment. Happy New Year to you too!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

beatup said:


> Any effort on my part to impose boundaries or consequences to her behaviors is not well accepted.


So?

Who cares if the aggressor likes the boundaries and consequences you put around yourself? That's her problem.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Just wanted to emphasize, to the folks newly speaking up here, the potential value of getting some counseling for oneself. Whether your partner has BPD or BPD traits or not, it sounds like you have had many years of being mistreated in an insidious way. That debilitates, depresses, and some forget what it feels to live. Take care of yourself, and think about reviving yourself first. If you have kids, and you somehow find the will and courage and energy to fix whatever (if anything) has been snuffed out of you these past years, then that lesson will last them a lifetime.

And, if you care about your partner, you will see much more clearly what, if anything, you can do to help, once you are feeling good and strong yourself.

My 2 cents. (And I need to take my own advice...)

I'm hoping others here can chime in with ideas of how to find a professional who understands BPD and BPD traits. I much admire my current counselor, and I appreciated some of the perspective our (now "unhelpful and thus fired" MC) gave us. But, neither has found any use for discussing BPD traits privately with me, and my IC seems generally skeptical when her patients suggest a PD might be in play). Yet I have seen, over and over and over, many of the traits in action over many years; and the forces often described (fear of abandonment, engulfment), and the extreme cost paid to evade any sort of awareness in her, ugh, it just sounds so familiar.

Whatever it is, it is very sad to watch, nearly daily. This person I have loved so much increasingly is unable to love me back, and so willing to dump undeserved pain on me.

beatup, has it gotten worst in the last 5 or ? years? 

Experts, does it typically get worse, as live goes on. For women, is there any evidence menopause has an effect for the worse?


Also, one of the newly-posting folks here mentioned alcoholism in the partner's family. Seems my wife has been drinking very much more than I had known. For how long, I have no idea -- but the frequency and severity of sh!tty behavior has felt much worse during the last year to year and a half.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

2galsmom said:


> Living with someone with a PD takes away your ability to think clearly and objectively. .





john117 said:


> Ehem.
> 
> I am not so sure I agree. My lovely wife has BPD and one of the best ways of coping is to think clearly and objectively.
> 
> ...



Perhaps 2galsmom would consider replacing "takes" with "can take"?:

_Living with someone with a PD *can take* away your ability to think clearly and objectively. ._​
That can easily happen because the abuse is often covert and insidious, and by the time some "nons" (most nons?) realize what is going on, it may take some hard work and time to heal enough to think as clearly and objectively as one should.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

PieceOfSky said:


> Does [BPD] typically get worse, as live goes on?


Piece, a few recent studies suggest that, as BPDers age beyond age 45-50, they tend to mellow a bit and oftentimes drop below the diagnostic threshold for having full-blown BPD. My experience, however, is that a person satisfying 70% or 80% of the diagnostic threshold may be nearly as difficult to live with as a person satisfying 100%. The reason is that threshold is targeted to the needs of hospitals, insurance companies, and courts -- and thus is set very high. It is NOT targeted to the needs of a partner who is trying to decide whether to marry -- or remain married to -- a person with strong BPD traits. 

Hence, for the purpose of deciding whether to remain married, it simply does not matter whether your spouse satisfies 90% of the diagnostic threshold (and thus "does not have BPD") or satisfies 100% (and thus "has BPD"). Either way, you are going to be one miserable guy if you try to stay with her and she declines to seek professional treatment.


> For women, is there any evidence menopause has an effect for the worse?


Yes, any change in hormones can worsen BPD traits. That can include menopause, perimenopause, menstruation, pregnancy, postpartum, or puberty. This is true both for "Nons" as well as BPDers. As you know, BPD is a spectrum disorder, which means everyone has all the traits to some degree. Hence, even the Nons can get terrible flareups of their BPD traits during a pronounced hormone change (or during great stress or a head injury). This is why, when professionals are diagnosing full-blown BPD, they restrict it to clients having strong traits that are persistent, not temporary.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

It's much more "normal" than you think.

What it may not be, is good.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Uptown said:


> Piece, a few recent studies suggest that, as BPDers age beyond age 45-50, they tend to mellow a bit and oftentimes drop below the diagnostic threshold for having full-blown BPD. My experience, however, is that a person satisfying 70% or 80% of the diagnostic threshold may be nearly as difficult to live with as a person satisfying 100%. The reason is that threshold is targeted to the needs of hospitals, insurance companies, and courts -- and thus is set very high. It is NOT targeted to the needs of a partner who is trying to decide whether to marry -- or remain married to -- a person with strong BPD traits.
> 
> Hence, for the purpose of deciding whether to remain married, it simply does not matter whether your spouse satisfies 90% of the diagnostic threshold (and thus "does not have BPD") or satisfies 100% (and thus "has BPD"). Either way, you are going to be one miserable guy if you try to stay with her and she declines to seek professional treatment.Yes, any change in hormones can worsen BPD traits. That can include menopause, perimenopause, menstruation, pregnancy, postpartum, or puberty. This is true both for "Nons" as well as BPDers. As you know, BPD is a spectrum disorder, which means everyone has all the traits to some degree. Hence, even the Nons can get terrible flareups of their BPD traits during a pronounced hormone change (or during great stress or a head injury). This is why, when professionals are diagnosing full-blown BPD, they restrict it to clients having strong traits that are persistent, not temporary.


Uptown is a fantastic resource on this subject.

What many partners seek is an "armistice" and/or "truce" with a BPD'er.

Such an agreement may be achieved, but it may take much longer than anyone initially comprehends.

If someone is emotionally 5 years old, the amount of time and patience required to "re-parent" them is huge and it actually must be done "well" to have any positive impact. That means time after time, you must not lose your cool and your self-respect in response to egregious abusive behavior.

Many factors come into this decision.

Let's say you are a man of around 30 years of age and find that your wife exhibits strong BPD traits. Do you engage in a 10-20 year siege of boundary-setting (including consequences) with this individual? What are the consequences for your children?

You may carve out a livable arrangement, largely due to BF Skinner type of operant conditioning. Punishing disrespectful and bad behavior, while rewarding positive proactive behavior.

If you do not have a "healer" within, I would encourage you not to try this. If you are no longer attracted to this person, I would not encourage you to embark on this journey.

However, if you are in a second marriage with no children between you and you are now enlightened with this insight, you may want to see where it goes. Kind of like an experiment.

In his lighter moments, Uptown himself admits to this fascination. His ex calls him at least annually. He checks with her to see if she STILL considers him an abuser and holds on tight to all her baggage. If she were to say "no, I no longer think that", I believe he'd be willing to attempt a reconciliation.

I see the commitment and love he still has for her.

I share it for mine.


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## tagearl (Dec 21, 2013)

As Conrad points out, this whole discussion can move on very quickly from a simple am I happy to more complicated am I co-dependant do I want to participate/assist in moving this r/s on, where does it all go?

And I guess that is the question? I am 56 with a young family!!! What do i want with all this and a BDPw?

One of the 1st things I picked up on was Uptown's assessment of how long a 'non' sticks around. Real 'nons' not very long others a long time, and so one gets to navel gazing to work out one's level of co-dependency or otherwise.

I want to think I am not co-dependant. 3 years of honeymoon (separate homes and getting together every w/e kept red flags in wraps). I was happily in a reciprocal loving Relationship. This was good, what I wanted (not needed).......

So I said yes to a child.....birth of which (in hindsight) started changes....moods distance...but as this was just post natal stuff (I though) we moved onto marriage.

And since wedding night the full apsects of BPD have become apparent, and a name put on them just recently.

Don't think I am kidding you (or myself) to say I have not been swept into the maelstrom. I watched for many years totally flummoxed at the things that went on, and I searched for the 'love' we had but it certainly wasn't here. 

I am not broken hearted (depsite the enormous joy we had to begin with) just empty with an empty Relationship. (That is empty of good bits).

So I think anyone can get into this kind of Relationship (certainly once) and depending on one's baggage and attitudes (and probably age too) that is what will guide the outcome.


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## tagearl (Dec 21, 2013)

BF Skinner?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

tagearl said:


> BF Skinner?


B. F. Skinner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

2galsmom said:


> As for removing emotion, that part is true.
> 
> You are living under her control, you often post that that what you say "controls" her and what you say you guides her behavior. But if everything you are saying is based on the reaction or would be reaction of another person, are you truly in control? I don't think so, it is the insidious nature of a passive aggressive relationship.
> 
> ...



2galsmom, you make some very good points. I much appreciate hearing your story and perspective, and admire that you found the wisdom and courage to get yourself to a much healthier situation. Not sure what you mean about the nit-picking etc., but please PM me if my speculative re-phrasing in my post above annoyed you.

Regarding your comment about "normal" and "accept"-ing abuse:

This has been on my mind quite a bit recently. I have become aware that when it comes to assessing my own situation, I cannot seem to convince myself of how normal/abnormal or acceptable/unacceptable my wife's behavior is. I've been confused by it for 20 years. I remember specific times early in our relationship where I wondered to myself "Is this normal? Is this how it is for everyone in their relationships?" When I was honest or wise enough to know, "No", I was naive enough to think in time and in the fertile ground of our relationship we'd grow together in the ways we needed to grow. Instead, we both stagnated.

Recently, I asked my therapist if most relationships are like my wife and I's, or if there are relationships where both partners treat each other lovingly and with respect. As I was asking it, I realized what an idiot I must be to actually be wondering that -- as surely there are such healthy couples! But, there was (and is) a part of me that still somehow wallows in ignorance of that fact.

FWIW, my therapist confirmed that yes indeed there are such healthy couples. In the past month or two, the "big breakthrough" in MC was for our MC to tells my wife that certain behaviors of hers are hurtful and she needs to stop, and my wife seemed to comprehend. (To her credit, certain behaviors have indeed stopped.) 

Occasionally, a moment of clarity hits me and I think it took how f'ing long in MC and in our relationship to get to this (possibly fading) awareness that certain f'd up behaviors are f'd up? And that's our big accomplishment for the f'ing year? 

Yes, I need to familiarize myself with the normal healthy relationships that are possible in this world, and gain some perspective on what behavior is not acceptable. Weird, I like to think I can see it mile away in other peoples stories, but I am blind or lost in uncertainty (evasion?) when it comes to mine.



> When I finally thought clearly and OBJECTIVELY


I wish I knew what enabled you to finally think clearly and objectively.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

2galsmom said:


> I have moved on and will let you all focus on the world of BPD.


2Gals, I am very hopeful you will reconsider. Because you were once married to a BPDer and have worked with BPDers in psych. rehab, you have a depth of experience with BPD that makes you one of the very best assets on this issue that the TAM forum has to offer. You therefore have been helping many TAM members -- as well as countless lurkers -- who are trying to extricate themselves from abusive, toxic relationships.

As to the nitpicking you mention, please do not be dissuaded by any disagreements that you and I have had. Even among professionals, BPD is still not well understood and there are areas in which they often disagree. It therefore is not surprising that we nonprofessionals -- despite our many years of experience with BPDers -- also will find areas of disagreement. But the areas in which you and I agree, IMO, are vastly larger.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

I appreciate 2gals testimony also.

Yet, part of our progress is that I no longer do watch what I say.

What I do is observe my own reaction and choose my battles.

There is a difference.

We now share extended periods of lighthearted banter and love.

I do think that being male helps me in this endeavor.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

PieceOfSky said:


> when it comes to assessing my own situation, I cannot seem to convince myself of how normal/abnormal or acceptable/unacceptable my wife's behavior is. I've been confused by it for 20 years.


If she had exhibited said behavior during your first date, would you have asked her out again?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Dating season does wonders to one's perception of such things


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I usually advise people to date for AT LEAST 2 years before considering agreeing to become engaged, to give them enough time to not be able to keep up the 'pursuit' behavior, and show their true colors. I have a friend on another forum who divorced her crappy husband only to become engaged to a 'saint' within 6 months. Well, 1 1/2 years later, the rose is fading from the bloom, and he's showing serious, serious problems that, had she known them earlier, would never have continued dating him. She's already postponed their wedding twice for these concerns, and he's doing even more crappy stuff now.

There's no rush.


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## beatup (Apr 6, 2013)

2galsmom said:


> It is interesting that whenever I discuss BPD my words are scrutinized and nit picked, not a coincidence.


2gals, your words are fine with me and probably most people here. If someone doesn't like your choice of words, it is their problem, not yours.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

turnera said:


> If she had exhibited said behavior during your first date, would you have asked her out again?







First date -- I don't know. Third date -- she exhibited it, yet I continued my pursuit. I remember my confusion, even asking a friend or two "Is this normal?" The answer looking back is a clear no. A healthier less ignorant/inexperienced/lonely version of me would have drawn a line and enforced it.



Perhaps I lied to myself above. At times it is very clear her behavior in recent years has been destructive towards me, the kids, and herself. What I really struggle with is whether it justifies divorce, possibly losing most of my time to enjoy my kids (D14, D10), and them having me around as a buffer between them and their mother and as someone who attempts to help them find healthy ways to not get lost in our dysfunction.


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## tagearl (Dec 21, 2013)

Tunera - 2 years at least....

After 3 years I was still delighted with our r/s. Not a red flag in sight*.

But we had maintained separate homes.

* On recollection her home was devoid of me! No stuff, no photos either.

To any kind of Non/Newbie this has to be hard to decipher.


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## tagearl (Dec 21, 2013)

sorry typo turnera


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## beatup (Apr 6, 2013)

joe kidd said:


> As I said things are different now. Things sometimes still happen but now there is an apology or better yet she will stop and say "we need to talk later".
> 
> Things that never happened before.
> 
> From what I'm told though, self aware BPDers are rare and it took her hitting rock bottom to become one.


*joe kidd* - Not that I want my W to hit rock bottom, but I would like for her to get to the point of enlightenment, i.e., self-awareness. Right now, she doesn't think there is anything wrong with her behavior. Were you instrumental in her hitting rock bottom or did she do that on her own?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I wonder if using teeny tiny truth darts would work with such a person. Like when they say something ridiculous that no one else would believe, come back with some logical or factual statement and then just walk away (so they can't argue). If you do it often enough, without getting entangled, they may come to see that something isn't working the same way any more.


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## beatup (Apr 6, 2013)

turnera said:


> I wonder if using teeny tiny truth darts would work with such a person.


I think what I have been doing lately is using "truth darts". Not always walking away though. I can see some change of behavior. She usually falls back into the "victim" position of Karpman's triangle for a while. Then I cringe, because I know the persecutor follows. Using truth darts and holding to [very distant] boundaries seems to have an affect on the amount of time [greater] before the persecutor shows up. But that is different than her becoming self-aware. Based on what I've seen on TAM and read in other places, BPD's who get to the place of, "Hello, my name is ______, and I am a BPD" seem to have the best chance for adjustment and correction in not just their behavior, but in their perception of reality as well.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

turnera said:


> I wonder if using teeny tiny truth darts would work with such a person. Like when they say something ridiculous that no one else would believe, come back with some logical or factual statement and then just walk away (so they can't argue). If you do it often enough, without getting entangled, they may come to see that something isn't working the same way any more.


Turnera, my experience is that, no, that does not work with BPDers (those having strong BPD traits). It does not improve their self awareness. That approach therefore "works" only in the limited sense that it will result in the BPDer walking out and ending the relationship.

The reason is that a BPDer will tolerate the relationship only as long as you continually validate her false self image of being "The Victim." Because she has no other self image to hold onto, she maintains a death grip on that one. Sadly, this means you must play one of only two roles: "The Savior" or "The Perpetrator." And, as the relationship matures, your days as savior will become increasingly rare.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, that would solve the problem, wouldn't it?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

turnera said:


> Well, that would solve the problem, wouldn't it?


That depends on how you define the problem. If the problem is the BPDer's lack of self awareness then, no, throwing "tiny truth darts" won't solve it. If the problem is finding a way to end the marriage then, yes, it solves the problem. As I said, your suggestion "works" in that limited sense of eventually ending the relationship. If that is your objective, however, you will save yourself a lot of time and pain by simply walking out the door.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It would solve the problem of turning one's self inside out trying to accommodate someone who can't/won't deal. *shrug* From everything I've learned, it's nearly impossible to have a successful marriage with a person with BPD; I posit that one might want to question what, exactly, is the goal of remaining married to someone in such a situation. If it's that you love that person so much that you can't bare to see them suffer, well, just give up expecting your needs to be met and settle in for the bumpy ride. If it's that you want to stay but only if you, too, are getting at least a marriage where you don't want to pull your hair out every day, then maybe a less passive stance will at least give you solace that you are not sacrificing your entire identity to keep this BPD person from leaving you.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Reading all these posts makes me either grateful I seem to have moved on from my major BPD issues w/only small flare ups during hormonal shifts OR I'm thinking I wasted all that money in therapy bc I never had BPD in the first place. 

All the things you people describe would have fit me to the letter when I was 16-25. Now none of it fits.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Reading all these posts makes me either grateful I seem to have moved on from my major BPD issues w/only small flare ups during hormonal shifts OR I'm thinking I wasted all that money in therapy bc I never had BPD in the first place.
> 
> All the things you people describe would have fit me to the letter when I was 16-25. Now none of it fits.


Lol, BG. I first heard about BPD a few months ago, and thought I had it, too. But then I read that everybody has it to a small degree.

But just to be sure, I asked a psychologist I had had a few appts. with .. . . and she said, no, you don't have it, you can see those folks from the waiting room.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If you have it, you likely don't THINK you have it.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

turnera said:


> If you have it, you likely don't THINK you have it.


Well when I first started therapy I never thought a darn thing was wrong with me.Everyone else was the problem,of course.

Later I learned that simply wasn't the case.I wasn't the victim of people.They were the victims of me.


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## beatup (Apr 6, 2013)

Uptown said:


> That approach therefore "works" only in the limited sense that it will result in the BPDer walking out and ending the relationship.


So, there is hope  . . .



Uptown said:


> The reason is that a BPDer will tolerate the relationship only as long as you continually validate her false self image of being "The Victim." Because she has no other self image to hold onto, she maintains a death grip on that one. Sadly, this means you must play one of only two roles: "The Savior" or "The Perpetrator." And, as the relationship matures, your days as savior will become increasingly rare.


Uptown, once again you nailed my wife's behavior. She is very comfortable as the victim and always has been. I didn't grow up in a home that was anywhere near Karpman's triangle. Drama wasn't tolerated. Had no idea people could be so cruel and messed up and I walked right into this one. As I look back on our r/s, I was the "savior" when we first met. From the day of our wedding, that role diminished over the years to zilch, when she began calling me Satan.

It becomes clear in retrospect, but for 23 years I kept always looking for things to get better. It's funny how we trick ourselves into living a fantasy --what we want as opposed to what is real. Still struggling with that.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you read LifeScript's thread?


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

turnera said:


> Have you read LifeScript's thread?


If you're asking me then no I haven't. I try not to read much of the BPD stuff bc I just get really depressed and angry.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

No, beatup. Script's wife is most likely BPD, and he's been through hell the last 3 years because he's a Nice Guy and couldn't disentangle himself from her manipulation.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

turnera said:


> I posit that one might want to question what, exactly, is the goal of remaining married to someone in such a situation.





If I could afford to buy the house next door, connect this house to it with a tunnel for the cold days and late nights, and have certainty my kids could and would drift back and forth such that I remained a daily and solid influence in their lives and I would see enough of their beautiful growth occur before my own eyes to have had a satisfying life, the architects would be here today and my neighbor would be moved out by tomorrow.


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## "joe" (Aug 19, 2013)

Uptown said:


> You therefore have been helping many TAM members -- as well as countless lurkers


that would include me. 
a very helpful thread, this.


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## Diesel_Bomber (Mar 17, 2013)

another good resource is for men who are recovering from relationships with abusive women and the non-abusive family and friends who love them | Shrink4Men

gettinbetter.net

a lot of these are ran by therapists and are a very good tool to cope with bpd women and other fun personality disorders.


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## tagearl (Dec 21, 2013)

Divorce came up the other day with enough weight for the discussion to be taken seriously but the aggressive consequences of my ‘selfish act’ were enough to make me realize that either I was not ready or prepared (brave?) enough for the situation. (The book Splitting and divorce etc IS on its way....)

So the matter was dropped.

So while we are all still together could someone explain how to keep it as sane as possible.

The idea (Pieceofsky) of two connected houses is up and running here, so I can get away. But it is not the panacea one might think. A bit like taking one’s holiday and staying at home. You can’t get away from it, all the daily stuff is still present.

Troublesome stuff…

1.	I say something assertive. Not aggressive or antagonistic or judgemental, just my thing. I then get swamped with accusatory cr*p. And off we go again……I now realize over time I have not defended my corner and my personal liberties have all but disappeared. I would like to reclaim lost ground but it is proving very difficult to win back, and introduce new habits.

2.	We had a smile and hand touch first thing this morning so I said how good that felt. That’s validation right? Or rewarding good behaviour? Anyhow, the sun shone for about 30 seconds.

3.	So for the bad stuff what is appropriate “punishment”? Walking out? I already spend a good part of my life in the other ‘house’, the benefit is peace but it does nothing to change/improve things.

4.	I don’t want to be a saviour or a carer. I want a happy life with my wife (but I think that is more fantasy than anything else). Or the strength to move on. And that is hard.

Thanks for listening.


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## browneyes74 (Sep 1, 2013)

I think that's the most insidious part of being with someone like this. They train you. As long as you are focused on pleasing them, they can make everything feel good. But, if you don't focus on them, it's passive aggressive hits.. 

I spent 10 years trying to study his moods, trying to fill that endless hole in him, that I don't know how to make myself happy anymore. I don't know my hobbies, or interests. HE was my hobby, and my interest. Making him happy. And it became a losing battle.. 

But yet, they do have a way of making you feel like you are the savior when you DO happen to please them, that keeps as well. 

I see your list and it saddens me. B/c that was my life too. Having to weigh what you say, trying to keep that "happy" person for as long as possible.. 6 months later, and I still miss parts of it.. Even though I can look back and realize that even the good parts were manipulative and controlling.. 

I wish you the best of luck and peace. I'm sorry you are going through this.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

tagearl said:


> Either I was not ready or prepared (brave?) enough for the situation. (The book Splitting and divorce etc IS on its way....)


Tag, I agree it is prudent to delay any action on the divorce front until you've had time to read that book.


> We had a smile and hand touch first thing this morning so I said how good that felt. That’s validation right?


Not really. Expressing your own feelings is not what "validation" is about. Rather, it is about affirming HER feelings, thereby acknowledging that her feelings are valid (regardless of whether they accurately reflect reality). This is especially important to BPDers because they typically grew up in an invalidating childhood environment where they were told they had no right to be feeling what they were feeling.

This is why the validation techniques discussed in _Walking on Eggshells_ can be so helpful in a r/s with a person having mild to moderate BPD traits. My experience, however, is that all the validation in the world doesn't have much effect on an untreated person having strong BPD traits. They simply won't believe anything you say and, even if you don't say a thing, they will keep projecting bad feelings and thoughts onto you.


> Could someone explain how to keep it as sane as possible.


I'm not a good one to ask. Remember, I'm the one who held on so long (15 years) that I ended up being thrown into jail on a bogus charge. Of course, you can minimize her temper tantrums and hissy fits -- a little bit -- by continuing to walk on eggshells around her. But, sadly, that enabling behavior is harmful to your W (by protecting her from the logical consequences of her own childish behavior) and to your children (by teaching them that fathers behave like doormats).

If you choose to stay with her, I believe you will eventually find that -- to maintain your own sanity and sense of self identity -- you eventually will start establishing stronger and stronger personal boundaries. That is a good thing. It is exactly what I started doing during the last years of my marriage. 

When you enforce those new boundaries, however, you likely will scare the ****ens out of your W. She likely will misinterpret them -- as my exW did -- as evidence that you are planning on leaving her. This fear of abandonment will be reinforced by all the signs of aging she sees in her body as the years go by. And, on top of that growing fear, she will grow increasingly resentful of your failure to make her happy (an impossible task). This, then, is why BPDer spouses typically walk out of the marriage after about 15 years.


> I say something assertive. Not aggressive or antagonistic or judgmental, just my thing. I then get swamped with accusatory cr*p. And off we go again.


As I noted earlier, a BPDer will remain in the r/s with you only as long as you continue to play one of two roles: savior or perpetrator. Hence, if your W is a BPDer, your days as "savior" pretty much ended with the wedding three years ago. 

Although you may be able to reprise that role on brief occasions while she is splitting you white, those days will get farther and farther apart. This means that, if you decide to stay with a BPDer, you must be willing to play the role of "perpetrator." You must be willing to be blamed for every misfortune, even when the blaming occurs right in front of your children.


> So for the bad stuff what is appropriate “punishment”? Walking out?


Yes, it is appropriate -- depending on the severity of her abuse -- to walk out to another room, to leave the house for several hours, or to leave the house for a longer period. This is not "punishment," however. Rather, it is simply allowing her to suffer the logical consequences of her own bad behavior." As long as you continue protecting her from those consequences, you are harming her by preventing her from having to confront her own issues and learn how to manage them. That is, you are enabling her to behave like a spoiled child and get away with it.

As I noted above, however, allowing a BPDer to suffer the logical consequences does not mean all will be bliss and happiness. The most likely result, if she is an untreated HF BPDer, will be her becoming very fearful that you have decided to abandon her. Because that heightened fear is very painful and frightening, she eventually will have a powerful incentive to end the pain by preemptively abandoning you -- as my exW did to me -- to prevent you from doing it to her.


> I already spend a good part of my life in the other ‘house’, the benefit is peace but it does nothing to change/improve things.


If she is a BPDer who is unwilling to work hard in therapy, your "improving things" is not an option (as far as I know). As I mentioned above, you can reduce her tantrums somewhat by walking on eggshells -- at the cost of providing your children with a terrible fatherly role model of being the doormat.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You could reduce the tantrums by stomping on said eggshells and setting hard boundaries and all that, and actually arrive at an armistice or steady state, but even that is not going to fix things. 

The light bulb has to come on in the BPD's head to make them realize they need to address the issue - whether by stomping or walking on eggshells that keeps the problem away from the stage, making the situation look near normal... In which case intervention of any kind is unlikely.

Should we then let the BPD go off the deep end and crash hard in the hope of recognizing their situation?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

john117 said:


> Should we then let the BPD go off the deep end and crash hard in the hope of recognizing their situation?


John, my view is "yes," if there are no children to consider. That is, BPDers should be allowed to suffer the logical consequences of their own bad choices. Otherwise, both partners continue in a toxic relationship that is harmful to both of them. Yet, when young children are involved, my advice is for the abused spouse to do whatever is in the best interests of those children.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

tagearl said:


> So for the bad stuff what is appropriate “punishment”? Walking out? I already spend a good part of my life in the other ‘house’, the benefit is peace but it does nothing to change/improve things.


How much reading have you done about boundaries and consequences?


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## tagearl (Dec 21, 2013)

> How much reading have you done about boundaries and consequences?


Probably not enough.

Probably didn't understand.

Pointers welcome.

For example W gets involved uninvited (ie eavesdropping) on F/S conversation with S (16), and then gets antsy. There seems to be a whole lot of very basic 'social' values/rules call them what you want that just do not work.


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## tagearl (Dec 21, 2013)

....to continue

a boundary might be 'no eavesdropping'.......right? (ie I am allowed to talk to others).

And when she snoops.....?


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Damn it Uptown I've come to the conclusion we are BPD afflicted 'soul mates' ! 



Uptown said:


> . This is especially important to BPDers because they typically grew up in an invalidating childhood environment where they were told they had no right to be feeling what they were feeling.


Yes, mvstxw is still showing this her familly effectivelly abandoned her and she ove the years suddenly finds a new big friend and it's "the mother I should always have had" "This is what familly is really like" etc etc 



Uptown said:


> This is why the validation techniques discussed in _Walking on Eggshells_ can be so helpful in a r/s with a person having mild to moderate BPD traits. My experience, however, is that all the validation in the world doesn't have much effect on an untreated person having strong BPD traits. They simply won't believe anything you say and, even if you don't say a thing, they will keep projecting bad feelings and thoughts onto you.


 Yep



Uptown said:


> But, sadly, that enabling behavior is harmful to your W (by protecting her from the logical consequences of her own childish behavior) and to your children (by teaching them that fathers behave like doormats).


Now we are apart my kids are noticing the diferences - I tell the truth - she lies. I can see the wood for the trees but increasingly so can they 



Uptown said:


> If you choose to stay with her, I believe you will eventually find that -- to maintain your own sanity and sense of self identity -- you eventually will start establishing stronger and stronger personal boundaries. That is a good thing. It is exactly what I started doing during the last years of my marriage.


 I wonder how many of these situations improve when that happens. It always seems to improve immediately but then quickly in my experience descends into the abyss 



Uptown said:


> When you enforce those new boundaries, however, you likely will scare the ****ens out of your W. She likely will misinterpret them -- as my exW did -- as evidence that you are planning on leaving her. This fear of abandonment will be reinforced by all the signs of aging she sees in her body as the years go by. And, on top of that growing fear, she will grow increasingly resentful of your failure to make her happy (an impossible task). This, then, is why BPDer spouses typically walk out of the marriage after about 15 years.


 Spot on



Uptown said:


> As I noted earlier, a BPDer will remain in the r/s with you only as long as you continue to play one of two roles: savior or perpetrator.


Never any middle in my experience



Uptown said:


> That is, you are enabling her to behave like a spoiled child and get away with it[/B].


If only I had had this resource 10 years ago I'd have recognized everything much clearer 




Uptown said:


> Because that heightened fear is very painful and frightening, she eventually will have a powerful incentive to end the pain by preemptively abandoning you -- as my exW did to me -- to prevent you from doing it to her.


 Yes again the same 



Uptown said:


> If she is a BPDer who is unwilling to work hard in therapy, your "improving things" is not an option (as far as I know). As I mentioned above, you can reduce her tantrums somewhat by walking on eggshells -- at the cost of providing your children with a terrible fatherly role model of being the doormat.


The thing I'm most proud of now we are so close to final divorce is this - my children know exactly the good and bad of this they can recognize her behavior and actually encourage me to deal with her stronger than I ever would have. 
Recently two weeks before xmas she suddenly expressed wanting to come home! after 20 months separated her on and off with OM. My children were vehement about her not coming back home. This actually shocked me 



Uptown said:


> John, my view is "yes," if there are no children to consider. That is, BPDers should be allowed to suffer the logical consequences of their own bad choices. Otherwise, both partners continue in a toxic relationship that is harmful to both of them. Yet, when young children are involved, my advice is for the abused spouse to do whatever is in the best interests of those children.


Absolutely


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

tagearl said:


> ....to continue
> 
> a boundary might be 'no eavesdropping'.......right? (ie I am allowed to talk to others).
> 
> And when she snoops.....?


Can you explain this in more detail? I don't understand what happened.


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## tagearl (Dec 21, 2013)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by tagearl View Post
> ....to continue
> 
> ...


Yep.....when I make a phone call, or perhaps talk to my S, often my conversation will be listened to (without my knowledge).

Then W will address me with comments about said conversation.

As far as I am concerned this is not right. I want to explain to her listening in is not on. A 'boundary' ? would have been crossed?

Is this an example of a boundary?

(She is entering uninvited into my space, I don't want that to be OK).

What might be a consequence for such behaviour.

What I want to do is try to reestablish some adult ground rules.

(it might sound like I am trying to be secretive with my calls, no, promise I'm not, just that I feel like I am being watched and checked).


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Oh, ok. Your boundary: I don't appreciate you listening to my private conversations as though you were part of the conversation. What if the other person were telling me something personal?

Your consequence: The only way you could have known _____ is if you were listening to my phone call with _____. I told you I'm not ok with you doing that. From now on, I'll be taking my calls outside on my cell phone.

The boundary is what you will or won't accept.

The consequence is what YOU do once that's been trodden on. Has nothing to do with the other person; she's free to try to listen in all she wants. You're free to remove her ability to do so.


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## tagearl (Dec 21, 2013)

> Headspin said
> The thing I'm most proud of now we are so close to final divorce is this - my children know exactly the good and bad of this they can recognize her behavior and actually encourage me to deal with her stronger than I ever would have


How old are your kids, and how did they get to know what is going on?

My W has a D (17) (my StepD) who is likely to be living under our roof for next X years.

She gets a lot of negative verbal from her mother.

What is the 'best practice' for keeping SD on a healthy track?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

What are the reasons for the negative verbals? Do they have any basis such that a reasonable person would find them acceptable?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Boundaries don't always have to be visible or obvious. If the wife snoops I could think of some very elaborate countermeasures that I could set up that would embarrass her to high heaven...


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## tagearl (Dec 21, 2013)

negative verbal is just gratuitous criticism.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Right, but is there basis for said criticism? Let's say the kid puts on more makeup than a TV anchor or wakes up every day at 545 am to spend an hour primping for 11th grade.... While she could be sleeping after staying up till 1 am studying. 

We went thru this with my older daughter and my wife, and while I sided with my daughter largely because of the gratuitous verbiage, I could near always identify areas where daughter could tone it down some or where my wife had a point.

In such situations it's too easy to blame one side or the other but one really needs to consider the issue holistically and all sides need to arrive at an understanding. It is important to ensure the response is proportional to the issue and not have her go off on the slightest difference. This may not be as easy as it sounds.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

tagearl said:


> How old are your kids, and how did they get to know what is going on?
> 
> My W has a D (17) (my StepD) who is likely to be living under our roof for next X years.
> 
> ...


Mine are much younger 10 and 11 but they noticed how things went, they noticed she lies about everything.

On dday they were told by WS "mummy is hurting daddy all the time and so has to leave" After they kept on and on about why and eventually I told them a in simplistic terms but they already knew half of it anyway 

One they knew the basics they left it alone and I expected them to be very neutral with us but they weren't. They noticed so much about her and easily catch her out.

They expect her to lie and if I'm honest it's not nice to see but for me she shows them no respect by carrying on as she ever did so,.......... 'you make your bed you lay in it' 

Their recent feelings, when she recently suddenly wanted "to come home" were really shocking. They were very against it and very protective of me.

It was incredibly touching and I feel very proud of them. They've come out of it all with a firm sense of what is right and wrong from me and I'm pleased to see it.

Sadly as they get older and wiser I can see more problems for stbxw


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## tagearl (Dec 21, 2013)

This is weird.

Just reading the book on Splitting and Divorce Eddy/Kreger and the paragraph starts

“If you are a classic avoider of conflict………

Well that certainly got my attention because I am (I now realize).

So how does this all work…….I’m trying to get out of the grips of a B/NPDw now that it has all gone bad, and I am exactly the profile that seems to attact/be attracted.

On day one of all this, we spent a couple of hours chatting, and mutually decided it would be good (great even ) to meet up again.

In that two hour window what went on? How did she know I had a profile that was compatible, and why did I feel so attracted (which I did)?

And why did I not feel attracted to others ? Had had quite a few other r/s but never with any desire on my side to make something big out of it?

I took my time to find what I thought to be a two-way loving relationship.

How wrong I was.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

tagearl said:


> So how does this all work…… How did she know I had a profile that was compatible, and why did I feel so attracted (which I did)? And why did I not feel attracted to others ?


Tag, I applaud you for asking these questions and wanting to become more self aware, e.g., about how you ended up in such a toxic relationship. Educating yourself is important because, when abused spouses have not learned how to spot the red flags for BPD, it is common for them to run right into the arms of a person just like the one left behind. 

As to your attraction for her, my view is that many high functioning BPDers are attractive to most men. Significantly, two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both were BPDers, according to their biographers. The difference between us and the more normal men is not our being more easily attracted but, rather, our decision to stay around long after the abuse has begun. More normal guys typically will enjoy the six month period of intense sex and then may spend up to an additional year trying to "restore" the r/s to the wonderful period they saw at the beginning. Then they bail.

It also would be a mistake to believe -- as books like _Emotional Vampires _suggest -- that your W spun a web and then went out hunting for a victim to pull into her trap. Because you've stayed with her for three years in a toxic marriage, you likely are an excessive caregiver like me. That is, YOU likely were the hunter. 

We caregivers will walk right past all the stable, emotionally available women (BORING) until we find a woman who desperately needs us. Indeed, we can spot _vulnerability _("catnip" to us) across a crowded room. We do this because our desire to be _needed_ (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be _loved_ (for the men we already are). 

Tag, the best explanation (that I've seen) of how we got to be that way during childhood is an article by therapist Shari Schreiber at DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?. Although Schreiber confuses BPDer behavior with that of narcissists, I do like her description of how we caregivers ended up having such low personal boundaries.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

There's a great book called Getting The Love You Want that describes how we pick people and attract people.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Uptown said:


> Tag, I applaud you for asking these questions and wanting to become more self aware, e.g., about how you ended up in such a toxic relationship. Educating yourself is important because, when abused spouses have not learned how to spot the red flags for BPD, it is common for them to run right into the arms of a person just like the one left behind.
> 
> As to your attraction for her, my view is that many high functioning BPDers are attractive to most men. Significantly, two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both were BPDers, according to their biographers. The difference between us and the more normal men is not our being more easily attracted but,* rather, our decision to stay around long after the abuse has begun.* More normal guys typically will enjoy the six month period of intense sex and then may spend up to an additional year trying to "restore" the r/s to the wonderful period they saw at the beginning. Then they bail.
> 
> ...


As ever uptown on the money 

I think the worst side of the aftermath for me is just this very point, is realizing that although obviously she / he BPDer can destroy all around them at will * we are very responsible for allowing them to do it!* 

This is our fault

I find it hard still to actually think after all of her wrongdoing that I am in a big way to blame and although unlike her _I have not chosen to hurt those I love_ I actually have, because from my own inaction, if you like, ended up contributing to the pain my kids me and other families from her adulteries have suffered 

The BPD is capable of bad stuff with little or no remorse but upon retrospect a lot of it was as you say due to almost none existant boundaries, my desperation to have her back at her best at any cost 

Her wanting to come back recently has finally shown me I will not just accept my own desperation as a tool for reconciliation. It shows me I have found an ability to stop, to think, to protect myself. Something tat I now understand 'regular' people act upon in a quicker time fram than the likes of me 

I have it within me to not just listen to my heart 

.......and that for me is a huge step forward


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## tagearl (Dec 21, 2013)

When I read Uptown’s take on jmdreamer everything fitted into place concerning BPD.

However I’m still struggling to understand the role/profile of the carer, which I would appear to be , but it’s not that clear.

I’ve put the r/s to one side for the moment, and have decided to take a closer look at what W is dealing with (ie me).

Read DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED etc …….and ‘liked’ the “Too Good” child bit (which I could relate to), but the carer bit doesn’t seem to fit……I’m not a fixer and have opted out of a high stress life (both would seem to go with carer territory). Have moved (geographically) far away though from (my childhood) family. So some of it fits.

FWIW as a young career man some vocational type tests showed me to be super low on ultruism! 



> Originally posted by Uptown
> We caregivers will walk right past all the stable, emotionally available women (BORING) until we find a woman who desperately needs us. Indeed, we can spot vulnerability ("catnip" to us) across a crowded room. We do this because our desire to be needed (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be loved (for the men we already are).


I understand this for a carer, and I think the same mechanism is working (because the scenario fits) but with a different set for parameters for the low boundary/non assertive type? Ie not seeking vulnerability but 'apparant' gentleness?

What I am trying to understand is how much of what is going on is down to me, and my slowness to address (or even understand) the abuse. While I might not be much of a carer, my low boundaries have passively allowed the r/s to ‘progress’ in its bad way.

(As an aside, do real healthy people get ‘soulmate’ type r/s or are they purely the fantasy domain BPDers + partner?)

Thanks to all - this board really helps.


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## beatup (Apr 6, 2013)

tagearl said:


> . . . I understand this for a carer, and I think the same mechanism is working (because the scenario fits) but with a different set for parameters for the low boundary/non assertive type? Ie not seeking vulnerability but 'apparant' gentleness?
> 
> What I am trying to understand is how much of what is going on is down to me, and my slowness to address (or even understand) the abuse. While I might not be much of a carer, my low boundaries have passively allowed the r/s to ‘progress’ in its bad way.
> 
> (As an aside, do real healthy people get ‘soulmate’ type r/s or are they purely the fantasy domain BPDers + partner?)


tagearl, I think you are on to something in seeking an "apparent gentleness" and in terms of the "fantasy domain." Only recently, through the TAM insights, did I realize that early in our r/s I mistook my wife's victim position for "apparent gentleness". That was an "aha moment". What is more difficult to break is the fantasy I have been living for the last 25 years of what I want our relationship TO BE . . . much like a broke and desperate gambler thinks the big win is just around the corner.


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