# Wife dropped a small bomb on me last night



## breathedeep

My wife and I had our first marriage counseling session yesterday. This is not the first time either of us have been in marriage counseling, although previously it was with both of our now ex-spouses. After our session, she texted me and told me she felt she could not go through with it, and felt like she couldn't change. I reassured her we could make a positive change in our relationship if we stuck with it, but she was emphatic that she didn't think she could do it.

Later that day while we were at work (she and I work together), we got on the subject of the recent sexual dysfunction in our relationship. She referenced a discussion she and I had the other day about how her behavior towards me during and after sex (she often gets angry with me for not doing something right, or she gets upset and cries during or after sex) has caused me to be anxious about having sex with her, and then how this anxiety is causing me to have sexual dysfunction of my own. She asked me what she could do about that, and I told her that I want to talk to her about it, but work was not the time or place to do so. So, we tabled the discussion until later that evening.

That evening after the children went to bed, we were in our room and she brought up the topic again. She told me that she would like to talk to me about why she didn't feel like she could go back to marriage counseling, and why she felt like she couldn't change. She then proceeded to tell me that for the two and a half years she and I have been together, that she has been 'faking enjoying sex'. She said that her traumatic childhood experiences (she was sexually abused by a family member, as well as family friends I have recently found out) have caused her to 'tune out' and not be present during sex. She says to survive the experience, she has to go someplace else mentally and 'play a part' while she is having sex so I will think she is enjoying it. I have known about the sexual abuse, but she has always reassured me that sex between us is her 'safe place' and that she loves the closeness that it brings for us. Now she is telling me that none of that was true, and that she has been acting the entire time.

She then told me that she was SO worried that I would bring up sex in our counseling session, that she was almost paralyzed during the session. She told me she didn't want me to bring it up at all, and that she wouldn't be able to talk about it if I did and that she would just deny it. She said this was the reason she didn't think she could change, and didn't think she could go through with our counseling.

After she told me this, I didn't know what to say, but I wanted to be caring and empathetic to her feelings and what she is going through. I told her that I would not bring it up and that she could bring it up in our sessions when she felt comfortable (although this is going to be difficult because alot of our recent issues have been related to sex). She said that she has been going to a counselor since she was a child, and she has NEVER talked about it. This was a big surprise to me; she has always told me that she dealt with these issues in her adolescence and teenage years with her counselors. Now she is telling me she didn't actually talk about this with them, and that she doesn't with her current counselor. I don't really know what to believe now.

At that point I was thinking to myself that she has been untruthful with me these past several years on several key topics. Despite that, I tried to be empathetic and told her that we could work through all of this with our current counselor, and in her own time. She reiterated that she wouldn't talk about it, and that she couldn't change. She then asked me, "And do you really want to be with someone that is not present with you when you are having sex with them?" I told her that I loved her and that we could work through all of that. She got more upset at that and said she was done with the conversation. Not wanting to push her, I left it at that and we moved on to another subject.

My mind is going to several places at once: I am empathetic to her pain and know she needs my support, which I fully intend to give. However, this makes me even more anxious about having sex with her because now I know she actually doesn't like it and it causes her great emotional stress. She tells me she wants to be close to me and needs that intimacy, but once she is in the act of sex, she has to switch her mind off. This is the reason she has become increasingly more and more combative with me during and after sex. She has told me in the past that she wants me to be rough with her during sex, and 'throw her around a little'. Last night she told me that she wants that because that is how she learned sex was when she was a child (by her abusers). How can I do this with her when I now know that I am playing the part of her past abusers? Another thought in my head was when she asked me why I would want to be with someone who isn't present during sex was that she is trying to push me away.

I am not sure where to go from here.


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## Kivlor

Has she ever gone to any Individual Counseling to try to address this issue? That's probably the place to start.

I can't imagine how hurtful it would be to hear that she was faking enjoying sex this whole time.


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## Hicks

You can go into her web or you can ask her to come out of if. Which do you think is a better approach?

Seems to me you are marching right into it.

Wives have all sorts of justifications for not being sexual. Too hot, too cold, too young, too old. They all have one thing in common: They seemingly cannot change and all wind up with the husband being asked "DO you want me to pretend to enjoy sex with you????????"

What you really ought to do is tell her that you expect a sexual marriage and that if there is something preventing her from being sexual you expect her to attempt to fix it through whatever means necessary if she wants to remain married.

Now, you better be giving her a reason to want to remain married.


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## Married but Happy

At some point the elephant in the room needs to be addressed. Ideally, she'll address it in individual counseling and it will help so that eventually it can be addressed in your joint marriage counseling. It's great to be supportive and understanding, but IMO this has to be dealt with or your marriage probably won't survive now that this sexual dysfunction is in the open. I suspect you're going to avoid having sex, and she's going to be okay with avoiding - not healthy for either of you.

Personally, having been in a sexually unsatisfying and dysfunctional marriage, I will never allow myself to be in another - and if I'd known what I was facing, would not have entered into that marriage at all. You may have some difficult decisions ahead of you.


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## breathedeep

Kivlor said:


> Has she ever gone to any Individual Counseling to try to address this issue? That's probably the place to start.
> 
> I can't imagine how hurtful it would be to hear that she was faking enjoying sex this whole time.


Yes, she has been in individual counseling since she was a young girl, maybe 25 years now. She has been seeing the same counselor for the past 6 or 7 years.

I am trying not to take it personally as I know this isn't about me. It does hurt in that I wish she had just been truthful with me so that we could have been working on this already. I also have to wonder what part I have played in not making her feel safe enough to feel she could talk to me about this earlier.


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## breathedeep

Married but Happy said:


> At some point the elephant in the room needs to be addressed. Ideally, she'll address it in individual counseling and it will help so that eventually it can be addressed in your joint marriage counseling. It's great to be supportive and understanding, but IMO this has to be dealt with or your marriage probably won't survive now that this sexual dysfunction is in the open. I suspect you're going to avoid having sex, and she's going to be okay with avoiding - not healthy for either of you.
> 
> Personally, having been in a sexually unsatisfying and dysfunctional marriage, I will never allow myself to be in another - and if I'd known what I was facing, would not have entered into that marriage at all. You may have some difficult decisions ahead of you.


What I don't understand is that our sex life had been great until we got married in September 2015(or sometime around that time). I would have NEVER thought she would ever tell me she didn't enjoy it and has to go someplace else in her head. Either she has been doing a great job of faking, I am completely clueless, or some combination of both.


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## lifeistooshort

Hicks said:


> You can go into her web or you can ask her to come out of if. Which do you think is a better approach?
> 
> Seems to me you are marching right into it.
> 
> Wives have all sorts of justifications for not being sexual. Too hot, too cold, too young, too old. They all have one thing in common: They seemingly cannot change and all wind up with the husband being asked "DO you want me to pretend to enjoy sex with you????????"
> 
> What you really ought to do is tell her that you expect a sexual marriage and that if there is something preventing her from being sexual you expect her to attempt to fix it through whatever means necessary if she wants to remain married.
> 
> Now, you better be giving her a reason to want to remain married.



As an abuse victim who has a pretty healthy sex life with her hb I'm going to say that if someone approached me like you're advising my response would be: fvck you and the horse you rode in on and gtfo.

"Wives have all sorts of justifications". That's cute.

It's an issue to be dealt with and not an easy one. 

But I would agree that she needs some serious ic and it must be addressed. If she seeks the intimacy she can learn to enjoy it.

OP, is there any reason she wouldn't find you to be a safe place? This is imperative for abuse victims..... the reason I have a good sex life is because my hb is a safe place for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ol'Pal

breathedeep said:


> My wife and I had our first marriage counseling session yesterday. This is not the first time either of us have been in marriage counseling, although previously it was with both of our now ex-spouses. After our session, she texted me and told me she felt she could not go through with it, and felt like she couldn't change. I reassured her we could make a positive change in our relationship if we stuck with it, but she was emphatic that she didn't think she could do it.
> 
> Later that day while we were at work (she and I work together), we got on the subject of the recent sexual dysfunction in our relationship. She referenced a discussion she and I had the other day about how her behavior towards me during and after sex (she often gets angry with me for not doing something right, or she gets upset and cries during or after sex) has caused me to be anxious about having sex with her, and then how this anxiety is causing me to have sexual dysfunction of my own. She asked me what she could do about that, and I told her that I want to talk to her about it, but work was not the time or place to do so. So, we tabled the discussion until later that evening.
> 
> That evening after the children went to bed, we were in our room and she brought up the topic again. She told me that she would like to talk to me about why she didn't feel like she could go back to marriage counseling, and why she felt like she couldn't change. *She then proceeded to tell me that for the two and a half years she and I have been together, that she has been 'faking enjoying sex'.* She said that her traumatic childhood experiences (she was sexually abused by a family member, as well as family friends I have recently found out) have caused her to 'tune out' and not be present during sex. She says to survive the experience, she has to go someplace else mentally and 'play a part' while she is having sex so I will think she is enjoying it. I have known about the sexual abuse, but she has always reassured me that sex between us is her 'safe place' and that she loves the closeness that it brings for us. Now she is telling me that none of that was true, and that she has been acting the entire time.
> 
> She then told me that she was SO worried that I would bring up sex in our counseling session, that she was almost paralyzed during the session. She told me she didn't want me to bring it up at all, and that she wouldn't be able to talk about it if I did and that she would just deny it. She said this was the reason she didn't think she could change, and didn't think she could go through with our counseling.
> 
> After she told me this, I didn't know what to say, but I wanted to be caring and empathetic to her feelings and what she is going through. I told her that I would not bring it up and that she could bring it up in our sessions when she felt comfortable (although this is going to be difficult because alot of our recent issues have been related to sex). She said that she has been going to a counselor since she was a child, and she has NEVER talked about it. This was a big surprise to me; she has always told me that she dealt with these issues in her adolescence and teenage years with her counselors. Now she is telling me she didn't actually talk about this with them, and that she doesn't with her current counselor. I don't really know what to believe now.
> 
> At that point I was thinking to myself that she has been untruthful with me these past several years on several key topics. Despite that, I tried to be empathetic and told her that we could work through all of this with our current counselor, and in her own time. She reiterated that she wouldn't talk about it, and that she couldn't change. She then asked me, "And do you really want to be with someone that is not present with you when you are having sex with them?" I told her that I loved her and that we could work through all of that. She got more upset at that and said she was done with the conversation. Not wanting to push her, I left it at that and we moved on to another subject.
> 
> My mind is going to several places at once: I am empathetic to her pain and know she needs my support, which I fully intend to give. However, this makes me even more anxious about having sex with her because now I know she actually doesn't like it and it causes her great emotional stress. She tells me she wants to be close to me and needs that intimacy, but once she is in the act of sex, she has to switch her mind off. This is the reason she has become increasingly more and more combative with me during and after sex. She has told me in the past that she wants me to be rough with her during sex, and 'throw her around a little'. Last night she told me that she wants that because that is how she learned sex was when she was a child (by her abusers). How can I do this with her when I now know that I am playing the part of her past abusers? Another thought in my head was when she asked me why I would want to be with someone who isn't present during sex was that she is trying to push me away.
> 
> I am not sure where to go from here.


Right or wrong, This is where i would have probably checked out, or puked. 

I wouldn't even want to have sex with her anymore. Maybe that was her goal???

I feel for you, not an easy situation to find yourself in.


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## breathedeep

Ol'Pal said:


> Right or wrong, This is where i would have probably checked out, or puked.
> 
> I wouldn't even want to have sex with her anymore. Maybe that was her goal???
> 
> I feel for you, not an easy situation to find yourself in.


This is where I am stuck. I am in a catch 22. I know I need to show her I can be here 'safe place', but now I worry I cannot even perform (and now I'm even more anxious about trying to have sex with her). If I cannot perform, she gets very defensive and says, "What's wrong? Do you not find me attractive anymore?" It's a vicious cycle.

And yes, her not wanting to be with me or have sex with me anymore definitely crossed my mind. As I mentioned in my first post, my gut reaction is that she is actively TRYING to push me away. I believe this is a fear/defensive reaction though as it is easier and safer for her just to not be with anyone when things begin to get difficult.


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## Sun Catcher

She has lied to you all these years, about enjoying sex and about having worked through her abuse with previous counsellors. She refuses to discuss sex with current counsellor. 

What does she want from you? A sexless marriage? Are you up for that?

For me, something doesn't ring true in the things she is telling you, I am not buying it. If I were you I'd look deeper and try to find out what changed. If all this she says is true, she has more issues than you will ever be able to comprehend. Either way, I would be looking for an exit plan. 

Good luck.


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## anonmd

breathedeep said:


> This is where I am stuck. I am in a catch 22. I know I need to show her I can be here 'safe place', but now I worry I cannot even perform (and now I'm even more anxious about trying to have sex with her). If I cannot perform, she gets very defensive and says, "What's wrong? Do you not find me attractive anymore?" It's a vicious cycle.


I find you plenty attractive. The problem is you refuse to deal with your issue in counseling, could you work on that for me?


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## breathedeep

anonmd said:


> I find you plenty attractive. The problem is you refuse to deal with your issue in counseling, could you work on that for me?


She is an attractive woman. This is definitely not the problem and I tell her this all the time. In my texts to her, I call her 'Beautiful' as in "Hey Beautiful, want to go for lunch today?"


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## breathedeep

Sun Catcher said:


> She has lied to you all these years, about enjoying sex and about having worked through her abuse with previous counsellors. She refuses to discuss sex with current counsellor.
> 
> What does she want from you? A sexless marriage? Are you up for that?
> 
> For me, something doesn't ring true in the things she is telling you, I am not buying it. If I were you I'd look deeper and try to find out what changed. If all this she says is true, she has more issues than you will ever be able to comprehend. Either way, I would be looking for an exit plan.
> 
> Good luck.


You are right. Something has changed. It was almost like a light switch. I am hoping we can get to the bottom of it in our marriage counseling.


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## jb02157

It almost seems to me that she's trying to bait you into wanting to divorce her by creating an unsolvable problem. I think that with your plan you have communicated to her seems to be a reasonable plan to address her issues but she won't try, won't talk to you about it and won't seek help from your MC about it. It almost seems that there might be something else involved that is making this seem unsolvable to her that warrants divorce. I think that it's odd that she kept something like this so major to herself all this time. 

I can think of two things you might want to try, first give her time since she has just told you about this and then maybe try to feel her out as to maybe something else is bothering her. 

People are able to get over this type of thing all the time, she just had to want to and maybe she thinks it's so big a problem it can't be solved. You might also want to do some research on line about how people were able to overcome this problem and suggest she read it. It might the needed relief she needs to know that this might not be as unsolvable as she thinks.


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## ihatethis

I had a friend who went through this with his wife. They have only ever slept with one another, and they are in their late 30's. The difference is, he wasn't so sympathetic to her. 

The way you describe it, is that your wife is almost looking for an excuse to be rid of you. 

If she isn't willing to be empathetic with you, (which she should be since being sexually deprived is not easy), then she really isn't in this partnership.

It's a terrible trauma that she went through, but she has to WANT to be healed, and it almost seems that she doesn't want to. 

Maybe she needs to see a different IC. Because to me, it seems odd that she is not willing to talk about it with a MC, but she is with her IC that she's been seeing. IF she wants to fix it, she will work on it with you. Not give you an ultimatum and make you feel bad for how you are feeling.


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## Kivlor

breathedeep said:


> Yes, she has been in individual counseling since she was a young girl, maybe 25 years now. She has been seeing the same counselor for the past 6 or 7 years.
> 
> I am trying not to take it personally as I know this isn't about me. It does hurt in that I wish she had just been truthful with me so that we could have been working on this already. I also have to wonder what part I have played in not making her feel safe enough to feel she could talk to me about this earlier.


25 years of counseling and she's still feeling this way? With that caveat, good sir, I know not what I would do.

How important is sex to you? Is it a Non-negotiable Unalterable Term that there be sex in your marriage?


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## MRR

Sun Catcher said:


> She has lied to you all these years, about enjoying sex and about having worked through her abuse with previous counsellors. She refuses to discuss sex with current counsellor.
> 
> What does she want from you? A sexless marriage? Are you up for that?
> 
> For me, something doesn't ring true in the things she is telling you, I am not buying it. If I were you I'd look deeper and try to find out what changed. If all this she says is true, she has more issues than you will ever be able to comprehend. Either way, I would be looking for an exit plan.
> 
> Good luck.


With all due respect to sexual abuse victims, I am not buying it either. I dont think there is anything genuine about her statements; and I actually get the feeling she wants to split but wants OP to initiate it.


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## lifeistooshort

It's not only abuse victims that make the mistake of lying about enjoying sex. Women do this all the time, often in an ill thought out attempt to protect a male ego.

But it's very destructive and hard to rectify.

I've tried very hard to at least be truthful with my hb so he knows he can believe what I tell him. 

Maybe you can forward with her promise to be completely honest about where she is. At least if you can believe her you'll know what you're dealing with. 

But I really think the fact that she craves the intimacy suggests she could learn to enjoy it.

She has to learn not to take the performance issues personally.

My hb would have trouble too if he thought I wasn't into it. That makes you a decent guy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sun Catcher

breathedeep said:


> *What I don't understand is that our sex life had been great until we got married in September 2015*(or sometime around that time). I would have NEVER thought she would ever tell me she didn't enjoy it and has to go someplace else in her head. Either she has been doing a great job of faking, I am completely clueless, or some combination of both.


You were married last September and that is when all this started? I would seek an annulment, she only wanted to marry you.

You mentioned putting kids to bed in another post, bet the kids are hers? I think she found a sugar daddy to take care of her and her offspring.

I hope I am wrong and hate to be so blunt, but my stomach is screaming. Cut your losses, get an annulment!


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## ConanHub

lifeistooshort said:


> As an abuse victim who has a pretty healthy sex life with her hb I'm going to say that if someone approached me like you're advising my response would be: fvck you and the horse you rode in on and gtfo.
> 
> "Wives have all sorts of justifications". That's cute.
> 
> It's an issue to be dealt with and not an easy one.
> 
> But I would agree that she needs some serious ic and it must be addressed. If she seeks the intimacy she can learn to enjoy it.
> 
> OP, is there any reason she wouldn't find you to be a safe place? This is imperative for abuse victims..... the reason I have a good sex life is because my hb is a safe place for me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree about the gender splitting statement but he is correct about the rest.

Mrs. Conan and I both are CSA survivors, me more so and bvllshytting around the issues only cause more problems.

OP needs to lovingly but firmly put his foot down that she get open about her problems and start working through them.

Mrs. Conan and I have had to deal with many after effects of our trauma and not being direct and firm only allows wiggle room.

A sexless marriage with no indication of changing is not a marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort

Kivlor said:


> 25 years of counseling and she's still feeling this way? With that caveat, good sir, I know not what I would do.
> 
> How important is sex to you? Is it a Non-negotiable Unalterable Term that there be sex in your marriage?


It's possible there could be a greater dynamic at play here which might be addressed in MC. Perhaps now that she's admitted what's going on she'll be willing to go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## breathedeep

ihatethis said:


> Maybe she needs to see a different IC. Because to me, it seems odd that she is not willing to talk about it with a MC, but she is with her IC that she's been seeing. IF she wants to fix it, she will work on it with you. Not give you an ultimatum and make you feel bad for how you are feeling.


From what I understood last night, she hasn't spoken about it with any of her counselors, let alone the one she's been seeing the past 6 or 7 years.

This is contrary to what she's told me in the past. So now I am thoroughly confused as to what to believe.


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## ConanHub

breathedeep said:


> From what I understood last night, she hasn't spoken about it with any of her counselors, let alone the one she's been seeing the past 6 or 7 years.
> 
> This is contrary to what she's told me in the past. So now I am thoroughly confused as to what to believe.


Well she apparently has a serious lying problem too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kivlor

breathedeep said:


> From what I understood last night, she hasn't spoken about it with any of her counselors, let alone the one she's been seeing the past 6 or 7 years.
> 
> This is contrary to what she's told me in the past. So now I am thoroughly confused as to what to believe.


If she's not been seeking help from her counselors for this, what is she seeing them for?

I think a lot of the other posters here are correct: This doesn't pass the sniff test. With the limited info we have, I'll concur that there is some greater dynamic at play here.


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## lifeistooshort

ConanHub said:


> I agree about the gender splitting statement but he is correct about the rest.
> 
> Mrs. Conan and I both are CSA survivors, me more so and bvllshytting around the issues only cause more problems.
> 
> OP needs to lovingly but firmly put his foot down that she get open about her problems and start working through them.
> 
> Mrs. Conan and I have had to deal with many after effects of our trauma and not being direct and firm only allows wiggle room.
> 
> A sexless marriage with no indication of changing is not a marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Very true, but I'd bet you guys find each other to be a safe place, which is why I asked if there's any reason she wouldn't find him to be one. 

It's worth ruling out. It may not even be his fault, but maybe she hasnt communicated well. He doesn't know what he doesn't know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## breathedeep

Kivlor said:


> If she's not been seeking help from her counselors for this, what is she seeing them for?
> 
> I think a lot of the other posters here are correct: This doesn't pass the sniff test. With the limited info we have, I'll concur that there is some greater dynamic at play here.


She has been seeing her current counselor since she and her ex were married. She was in an abusive marriage previously and was seeing her current counselor as a result.

As far as her childhood counselors, I don't believe that she didn't talk to them about her sexual abuse. I agree, things don't seem to add up there. When I asked her about it last night, she said that her mom made her go because of her parent's divorce.


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## Hope1964

Sounds quite simple to me: Either she deals with her issues, starting NOW, or sayonara. Whether she goes to IC, opens up in MC, or something else the two of you agree on, she HAS to do it.

Nothing else can even begin to be dealt with until she does so.

If she does do it, she also needs to prove to you that she is - none of this going to IC and saying she's talking about it but meanwhile lying about it. You have to know, because she's lied about it. That HAS to be part of the deal.


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## Kivlor

breathedeep said:


> She has been seeing her current counselor since she and her ex were married. She was in an abusive marriage previously and was seeing her current counselor as a result.
> 
> As far as her childhood counselors, I don't believe that she didn't talk to them about her sexual abuse. I agree, things don't seem to add up there. When I asked her about it last night, she said that her mom made her go because of her parent's divorce.


It's possible. Some people who've been abused terribly find discussing those experiences extremely difficult.

I had a childhood counselor, but never openly discussed being abused. I was too scared as a kid. As an adult I saw a counselor years ago, and opened up. It was quite helpful. But I was terrified to admit to any abuse or weakness. It took several meetings to get comfortable.

ETA: My childhood counselor was court-appointed, along with a GAL in my parents divorce when I was little. So... I could see exactly what your wife says being possible. Or she could be fibbing.


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## breathedeep

lifeistooshort said:


> OP, is there any reason she wouldn't find you to be a safe place? This is imperative for abuse victims..... the reason I have a good sex life is because my hb is a safe place for me.


My initial reaction to this question is, no, I do not think so. I have known about her abuse from very early on in our relationship, and she made it clear to me early that I should not take it personally her inability to orgasm, and that I cannot pressure her to have one because that only exacerbates the problem. In the past, we have always focused on having fun, being close to each other, and not made a big deal of her orgasm (or lack of). I didn't want to put any pressure on her about it whatsoever.

With that said, given what she told me last night, there is obviously some reason she hasn't and doesn't feel I am safe. I am obviously missing something, and will have to do quite a bit of introspection in the coming days and weeks. I will also ask her if I have done anything that doesn't make her feel safe with me.


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## tech-novelist

Either she was lying to you before, or she's lying now.

Either way, she's a liar, and she is also denying you sex on grounds of very dubious sincerity.

I would draw up divorce papers and hand them to her, saying "Now you won't have to worry about having sex with me anymore."


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## breathedeep

technovelist said:


> Either way, she's a liar, and she is also denying you sex on grounds of very dubious sincerity.


This is what I find difficult to reconcile in my head. She isn't actively denying me sex. She continually states that she wants and needs sex with me, and that she is unhappy that we aren't having it as frequently as we once did.

On the other hand, she has now told me that she doesn't enjoy sex and that she has to go someplace else mentally, and this is the reason she's been acting the way she has during sex the last several months. This in turn makes me anxious about having sex with her, and not want to have sex with her because I know she isn't into it. So, she is INDIRECTLY reducing the sex that we have and that she says she wants.


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## Grogmiester

breathedeep said:


> From what I understood last night, she hasn't spoken about it with any of her counselors, let alone the one she's been seeing the past 6 or 7 years.
> 
> *This is contrary to what she's told me in the past. So now I am thoroughly confused as to what to believe.*


My XW was abused by her step father from the age of 9 until I married her. I found out five years into my marriage when I came home and found her sitting on the living room floor rocking back and forth banging her head against the wall.

The fact your W never got IC specifically for this I think spells doom for your M. We're all a collection of our experiences as we grow older. 

I think she was faking it because it's what she perceived to be what a good W does when they're intimate with their H. Her arguments were her way of processing the abuse and intimacy with you. I think the reason she told you the true is she can't do it any more. It's exhausting to have to "play a part". 

Unfortunately her refusing to bring it up in any type of C should be a non starter. Theres no chance for the M if it's not addressed.


----------



## lifeistooshort

breathedeep said:


> My initial reaction to this question is, no, I do not think so. I have known about her abuse from very early on in our relationship, and she made it clear to me early that I should not take it personally her inability to orgasm, and that I cannot pressure her to have one because that only exacerbates the problem. In the past, we have always focused on having fun, being close to each other, and not made a big deal of her orgasm (or lack of). I didn't want to put any pressure on her about it whatsoever.
> 
> With that said, given what she told me last night, there is obviously some reason she hasn't and doesn't feel I am safe. I am obviously missing something, and will have to do quite a bit of introspection in the coming days and weeks. I will also ask her if I have done anything that doesn't make her feel safe with me.


You may not have done anything specific, see my earlier post about women trying to protect egos. Stupid thing to do but many of us are guilty of it.

Have you asked why she didn't tell you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## breathedeep

Grogmiester said:


> I think she was faking it because it's what she perceived to be what a good W does when they're intimate with their H. Her arguments were her way of processing the abuse and intimacy with you. I think the reason she told you the true is she can't do it any more. It's exhausting to have to "play a part".


This is a good observation, and my wife said this almost verbatim last night. She said she has been acting the way she thought she was supposed to be acting. That was where the 'playing a part' statement came from. You are also right, I think after she and I got married, she felt some sense of relief in that she didn't have to continue playing that part because she had me locked down. Now she is finding it exhausting trying to keep up that facade, and it has finally broken.


----------



## brooklynAnn

OP, sorry you now are in this spot.

The thing is, WTF has your wife been doing in therapy for 6-7 years? If she has never discussed her abused ever with her therapist. This therapy is not doing any good and is a waste of time.

What you need to do is insist that she gets a new individual therapist and continue with MC.

Your current situation is that you live in a sexless marriage or continue to have sex with a wife who goes somewhere else in her mind.

You know your wife best. As such, you need to decided what you want for you and what you can live with.

My story is that I have found my H to be my safe place and protector. In his arms I know I am safe and I know what we do together is good and beautiful. And I refuse to let my memories come inside my marriage bed.

Ask to attend one of her IC session with her and see what she says. If she is not willing to fight to regain her self and you are will to so, then you need to fight for your wife and your marriage. it's going to be a lot of work, pain, suffering and maybe hate. But when she is well and has power over herself, it would have been worth it.

If you are not will to do anything because you don't want to hurt her. Then, your marriage will continue to breakdown. Until, there is nothing is save. 

Good luck.


----------



## breathedeep

lifeistooshort said:


> You may not have done anything specific, see my earlier post about women trying to protect egos. Stupid thing to do but many of us are guilty of it.
> 
> Have you asked why she didn't tell you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When we have touched on this subject in the past, she has said she didn't want to bruise my ego or hurt my feelings. These previous conversations were in very different context and under very different circumstances, so I need to ask her again.


----------



## MRR

breathedeep said:


> My initial reaction to this question is, no, I do not think so. I have known about her abuse from very early on in our relationship, and she made it clear to me early that I should not take it personally her inability to orgasm, and that I cannot pressure her to have one because that only exacerbates the problem. In the past, we have always focused on having fun, being close to each other, and not made a big deal of her orgasm (or lack of). I didn't want to put any pressure on her about it whatsoever.
> 
> With that said, given what she told me last night,* there is obviously some reason she hasn't and doesn't feel I am safe*. I am obviously missing something, and will have to do quite a bit of introspection in the coming days and weeks. I will also ask her if I have done anything that doesn't make her feel safe with me.


I have to say I think it is quite possible none of the abuse she went through in the past has anything to do with this; that yes-- she is lying to you about it. This just does not sound genuine at all. 

I would definitely probe more and get her to elaborate.


----------



## breathedeep

brooklynAnn said:


> OP, sorry you now are in this spot.
> 
> The thing is, WTF has your wife been doing in therapy for 6-7 years? If she has never discussed her abused ever with her therapist. This therapy is not doing any good and is a waste of time.
> 
> What you need to do is insist that she gets a new individual therapist and continue with MC.
> 
> Your current situation is that you live in a sexless marriage or continue to have sex with a wife who goes somewhere else in her mind.
> 
> You know your wife best. As such, you need to decided what you want for you and what you can live with.
> 
> My story is that I have found my H to be my safe place and protector. In his arms I know I am safe and I know what we do together is good and beautiful. And I refuse to let my memories come inside my marriage bed.
> 
> *Ask to attend one of her IC session with her and see what she says*. If she is not willing to fight to regain her self and you are will to so, then you need to fight for your wife and your marriage. it's going to be a lot of work, pain, suffering and maybe hate. But when she is well and has power over herself, it would have been worth it.
> 
> If you are not will to do anything because you don't want to hurt her. Then, your marriage will continue to breakdown. Until, there is nothing is save.
> 
> Good luck.


She has been refusing to attend MC with me for over a year. Because of her refusal, I asked her to at least allow me to attend some of her IC. She flat out refuses. She will not let me do this. She says that is for her, and not for anyone else. I finally talked her into seeing a marriage counselor with me, as you see in my first post, which now she is pushing back on.


----------



## soccermom2three

I can't believe some of the terrible advice and comments on this thread. 

Grogmeister hit the nail on the head:

"I think she was faking it because it's what she perceived to be what a good W does when they're intimate with their H. Her arguments were her way of processing the abuse and intimacy with you. I think the reason she told you the true is she can't do it any more. It's exhausting to have to "play a part". "

The woman is opening up to her husband about a painful part of her life and posters here blasting her calling her a liar. BreatheDeep please do not approach your wife like she's some nefarious *****. Listen to Life and Gromeister, they have the most rational posts.


----------



## brooklynAnn

breathedeep said:


> She has been refusing to attend MC with me for over a year. Because of her refusal, I asked her to at least allow me to attend some of her IC. She flat out refuses. She will not let me do this. She says that is for her, and not for anyone else. I finally talked her into seeing a marriage counselor with me, as you see in my first post, which now she is pushing back on.


Let her know that you are trying to help her and you don't think she is getting the help she needs. That is why you want to accompany her to her IC secession. Tell you are fighting for her to become strong. You are on her side and advocating for her happiness. Because her happiness is your happiness. That you don't want to see her continue with her life in pain and suffering. She is suffering. 

Keep reminding her you are on her side. You are with her in this journey to get her health.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

breathedeep said:


> My wife and I had our first marriage counseling session yesterday. This is not the first time either of us have been in marriage counseling, although previously it was with both of our now ex-spouses. After our session, she texted me and told me she felt she could not go through with it, and felt like she couldn't change. I reassured her we could make a positive change in our relationship if we stuck with it, but she was emphatic that she didn't think she could do it.
> 
> Later that day while we were at work (she and I work together), we got on the subject of the recent sexual dysfunction in our relationship. She referenced a discussion she and I had the other day about how her behavior towards me during and after sex (she often gets angry with me for not doing something right, or she gets upset and cries during or after sex) has caused me to be anxious about having sex with her, and then how this anxiety is causing me to have sexual dysfunction of my own. She asked me what she could do about that, and I told her that I want to talk to her about it, but work was not the time or place to do so. So, we tabled the discussion until later that evening.
> 
> That evening after the children went to bed, we were in our room and she brought up the topic again. She told me that she would like to talk to me about why she didn't feel like she could go back to marriage counseling, and why she felt like she couldn't change. She then proceeded to tell me that for the two and a half years she and I have been together, that she has been 'faking enjoying sex'. She said that her traumatic childhood experiences (she was sexually abused by a family member, as well as family friends I have recently found out) have caused her to 'tune out' and not be present during sex. She says to survive the experience, she has to go someplace else mentally and 'play a part' while she is having sex so I will think she is enjoying it. I have known about the sexual abuse, but she has always reassured me that sex between us is her 'safe place' and that she loves the closeness that it brings for us. Now she is telling me that none of that was true, and that she has been acting the entire time.
> 
> She then told me that she was SO worried that I would bring up sex in our counseling session, that she was almost paralyzed during the session. She told me she didn't want me to bring it up at all, and that she wouldn't be able to talk about it if I did and that she would just deny it. She said this was the reason she didn't think she could change, and didn't think she could go through with our counseling.
> 
> After she told me this, I didn't know what to say, but I wanted to be caring and empathetic to her feelings and what she is going through. I told her that I would not bring it up and that she could bring it up in our sessions when she felt comfortable (although this is going to be difficult because alot of our recent issues have been related to sex). She said that she has been going to a counselor since she was a child, and she has NEVER talked about it. This was a big surprise to me; she has always told me that she dealt with these issues in her adolescence and teenage years with her counselors. Now she is telling me she didn't actually talk about this with them, and that she doesn't with her current counselor. I don't really know what to believe now.
> 
> At that point I was thinking to myself that she has been untruthful with me these past several years on several key topics. Despite that,* I tried to be empathetic and told her that we could work through all of this with our current counselor, and in her own time*. She reiterated that she wouldn't talk about it, and that she couldn't change. She then asked me, "And do you really want to be with someone that is not present with you when you are having sex with them?" I told her that I loved her and that we could work through all of that. She got more upset at that and said she was done with the conversation. Not wanting to push her, I left it at that and we moved on to another subject.
> 
> My mind is going to several places at once: I am empathetic to her pain and know she needs my support, which I fully intend to give. However, this makes me even more anxious about having sex with her because now I know she actually doesn't like it and it causes her great emotional stress. She tells me she wants to be close to me and needs that intimacy, but once she is in the act of sex, she has to switch her mind off. This is the reason she has become increasingly more and more combative with me during and after sex. She has told me in the past that she wants me to be rough with her during sex, and 'throw her around a little'. Last night she told me that she wants that because that is how she learned sex was when she was a child (by her abusers). How can I do this with her when I now know that I am playing the part of her past abusers? Another thought in my head was when she asked me why I would want to be with someone who isn't present during sex was that she is trying to push me away.
> 
> I am not sure where to go from here.


What I highlighted above was perfect. Your only focus right now is to be YOUR best. And right now your best is get educated on her issues and in time she may be open to looking at them with you, but creating emotional safety for her is smart. That stacks the odds in your favor that she will receive help.

She needs this book.... http://www.amazon.com/No-Longer-Alo...id=1455295649&sr=8-1&keywords=sallie+culbreth

And this website.... Sallie Culbreth - Committed to Freedom


----------



## Blossom Leigh

She will need to accept the mantle of healing, but right now just focus on educating yourself. It will help not only your on anxiety over it but also deepen your empathy. Leave sex alone for right now. You guys will figure out how to navigate to protect her.


----------



## breathedeep

soccermom2three said:


> I can't believe some of the terrible advice and comments on this thread.
> 
> Grogmeister hit the nail on the head:
> 
> I think she was faking it because it's what she perceived to be what a good W does when they're intimate with their H. Her arguments were her way of processing the abuse and intimacy with you. I think the reason she told you the true is she can't do it any more. It's exhausting to have to "play a part". "
> 
> The woman is opening up to her husband about a painful part of her life and posters here blasting her calling her a liar. *BreatheDeep please do not approach your wife like she's some nefarious ******. Listen to Life and Gromeister, they have the most rational posts.


I won't. I am fully empathetic to her pain and what she is going through and I want to act in a compassionate manner.

However, there are others with good advice that have stated she has to be willing to work on this so that she and I can have the relationship I want and she says she wants.

I am an optimist and believe she and I can work through this. I am trying to understand the best way to do that without getting taken advantage of and being a doormat.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

breathedeep said:


> I won't. I am fully empathetic to her pain and what she is going through and I want to act in a compassionate manner.
> 
> However, there are others with good advice that have stated she has to be willing to work on this so that she and I can have the relationship I want and she says she wants.
> 
> I am an optimist and believe she and I can work through this. I am trying to understand the best way to do that without getting taken advantage of and being a doormat.


You do that with education, clear vision, patience while waiting for her to pick up that process. It could take a year before you know which way she's going to lean. You are going to need a support system because she will not be able to give you fully what you need right now. Get your tanks filled with strong support. It will make this process easier. And note that I did not say easy.... just easier.


----------



## breathedeep

Blossom Leigh said:


> You do that with education, clear vision, patience while waiting for her to pick up that process. It could take a year before you know which way she's going to lean. You are going to need a support system because she will not be able to give you fully what you need right now. Get your tanks filled with strong support. It will make this process easier. And note that I did not say easy.... just easier.


I have been building my support system. I mentioned in another thread that I am looking at men's groups and other places for support. I have been meeting with a very strong, male mentor the last few weeks every Wednesday at lunch, and it has helped me tremendously. He has pointed out much in myself and my situation that I wasn't able to see.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

breathedeep said:


> I have been building my support system. I mentioned in another thread that I am looking at men's groups and other places for support. I have been meeting with a very strong, male mentor the last few weeks every Wednesday at lunch, and it has helped me tremendously. He has pointed out much in myself and my situation that I wasn't able to see.


Excellent!!! Great news!


----------



## MRR

breathedeep said:


> I won't. I am fully empathetic to her pain and what she is going through and I want to act in a compassionate manner.
> 
> However, there are others with good advice that have stated she has to be willing to work on this so that she and I can have the relationship I want and she says she wants.
> 
> I am an optimist and believe she and I can work through this. I am trying to understand the best way to do that without getting taken advantage of and being a doormat.


While I am one on here who is very wary of how this is happening-- I cannot put me finger on it but something definitely seems off-- I certainly would not suggest doing anything rash or dramatic right now; nurturing your own interests and getting yourself in the best place possible is a great plan. Glad at the same time you are aware of the doormat thing; be empathetic but understand your own needs also. You are obviously listening for 'glitches' in her stories now. Ears open, mouth shut for awhile is my advice.


----------



## breathedeep

MRR said:


> While I am one on here who is very wary of how this is happening-- I cannot put me finger on it but something definitely seems off-- I certainly would not suggest doing anything rash or dramatic right now; nurturing your own interests and getting yourself in the best place possible is a great plan. *Glad at the same time you are aware of the doormat thing; be empathetic but understand your own needs also*. You are obviously listening for 'glitches' in her stories now. Ears open, mouth shut for awhile is my advice.


_No More Mr. Nice Guy, Hold on To Your N.U.T.S, and Boundaries in Marriage_... I have learned more about relationships from those books and from this site in the past three months than I have in my past 37 years on this earth.


----------



## Grogmiester

breathedeep said:


> This is a good observation, and my wife said this almost verbatim last night. She said she has been acting the way she thought she was supposed to be acting. That was where the 'playing a part' statement came from. You are also right, I think after she and I got married, she felt some sense of relief in that she didn't have to continue playing that part because she had me locked down. Now she is finding it exhausting trying to keep up that facade, and it has finally broken.


I'm certainly NOT suggesting that what I'm going to say is going to happen to your W. I'm only telling you what happened to me.

My XW's CSA led to her developing a PD (personality disorder). Very scary stuff. She became what I would call a chameleon. 

Every friendship, event or encounter with someone, she would morph into what she though she should be. She became the best friend of everyone. She would taylor herself to each friend. At church the perfect Christian. etc etc At home was crazy.

She was diagnosed by a psychiatrist with a PD (personality disorder). Unfortunately she wouldn't got back to see him to determine which type of PD. We picked up a prescription on the way home. She flushed it down the toilet when we got home. I called the psychiatrist and he said it happens all the time. She knows who she is and she's afraid to find out who she'll become. She never went back.

Like I said ,,, scary stuff.

I know how you feel right now because I've been there. Your M is in real jeopardy because of something you didn't do or have any control of. 

Was the CSA ever addressed in the family? My XW told her mother when she was around 11 and the mother didn't believe her. I can't even imagine how much that compounded my XW issues. Did your W tell anyone? If your W abuse was swept under the rug then it compounds it more.

Hopefully you can convince her to get C with someone who "specializes" in CSA. Tell her she deserves to be happy ,,,, not for me (meaning you) but herself at a minimum. If she can start there then there's a chance to save the M and have a healthy relationship.


----------



## lifeistooshort

breathedeep said:


> This is what I find difficult to reconcile in my head. She isn't actively denying me sex. She continually states that she wants and needs sex with me, and that she is unhappy that we aren't having it as frequently as we once did.
> 
> On the other hand, she has now told me that she doesn't enjoy sex and that she has to go someplace else mentally, and this is the reason she's been acting the way she has during sex the last several months. This in turn makes me anxious about having sex with her, and not want to have sex with her because I know she isn't into it. So, she is INDIRECTLY reducing the sex that we have and that she says she wants.


I still think the fact that she wants to be close you says it has little to nothing to do with you. 

She wants to be close....that gives you a ton to work with. 

Maybe you can go ahead and have sex with her knowing she wants to be close and try to get her to focus on the moment and things she likes? 

Then she can learn to associate that with you. 

I mean, us women are always being told that we should be more open to sex because that's how our men feel close to us. What's the issue if your wife uses it to feel close?

And yet so many of the TAM gallery are now bashing her for not enjoying it enough. We really can't win here unless we provide perfect porn sex. 

Have sex with hb so he can feel close but if you don't enjoy it enough he should divorce your selfish arse. 

Not directed at you op, you sound like a great guy.

If she didn't want to be close you wouldn't get any..... you in fact have a lot to work with. 

This is fixable, imho.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Grogmiester said:


> I'm certainly NOT suggesting that what I'm going to say is going to happen to your W. I'm only telling you what happened to me.
> 
> My XW's CSA led to her developing a PD (personality disorder). Very scary stuff. She became what I would call a chameleon.
> 
> Every friendship, event or encounter with someone, she would morph into what she though she should be. She became the best friend of everyone. She would taylor herself to each friend. At church the perfect Christian. etc etc At home was crazy.
> 
> She was diagnosed by a psychiatrist with a PD (personality disorder). Unfortunately she wouldn't got back to see him to determine which type of PD. We picked up a prescription on the way home. She flushed it down the toilet when we got home. I called the psychiatrist and he said it happens all the time. She knows who she is and she's afraid to find out who she'll become. She never went back.
> 
> Like I said ,,, scary stuff.
> 
> I know how you feel right now because I've been there. Your M is in real jeopardy because of something you didn't do or have any control of.
> 
> Was the CSA ever addressed in the family? My XW told her mother when she was around 11 and the mother didn't believe her. I can't even imagine how much that compounded my XW issues. Did your W tell anyone? If your W abuse was swept under the rug then it compounds it more.
> 
> Hopefully you can convince her to get C with someone who "specializes" in CSA. Tell her she deserves to be happy ,,,, not for me (meaning you) but herself at a minimum. If she can start there then there's a chance to save the M and have a healthy relationship.



ohhhhhh  this reminds me to tell you about a book you need

The Sum of My Parts

Warning.... it is a HARD read for ANYONE who came from trauma. This book is for you for understanding. Her "going somewhere else" is a clue to potential dissociative issues. 

And yes, the professional you need on this are high level experts in CSA. I sure do wish you the best. Breaks my heart for her.


----------



## Grogmiester

Blossom Leigh said:


> ohhhhhh  this reminds me to tell you about a book you need
> 
> The Sum of My Parts
> 
> Warning.... it is a HARD read for ANYONE who came from trauma. This book is for you for understanding. Her "going somewhere else" is a clue to potential dissociative issues.
> 
> And yes, the professional you need on this are high level experts in CSA. I sure do wish you the best. Breaks my heart for her.


Thanks, She's my XW now but it might help me understand what was going on. Being married to someone with a PD can mess your head up above and beyond how tramatic a D can be.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Grogmiester said:


> Thanks, She's my XW now but it might help me understand what was going on. Being married to someone with a PD can mess your head up above and beyond how tramatic a D can be.


Absolutely read it and it will make a lot fall into place for you. 

I originally meant that for the OP


----------



## Grogmiester

Blossom Leigh said:


> Absolutely read it and it will make a lot fall into place for you.
> 
> I originally meant that for the OP


Ooooops ,,, thanks anyway


----------



## brooklynAnn

lifeistooshort said:


> I still think the fact that she wants to be close you says it has little to nothing to do with you.
> 
> She wants to be close....that gives you a ton to work with.
> 
> Maybe you can go ahead and have sex with her knowing she wants to be close and try to get her to focus on the moment and things she likes?
> 
> Then she can learn to associate that with you.
> 
> I mean, us women are always being told that we should be more open to sex because that's how our men feel close to us. What's the issue if your wife uses it to feel close?
> 
> And yet so many of the TAM gallery are now bashing her for not enjoying it enough. We really can't win here unless we provide perfect porn sex.
> 
> Have sex with hb so he can feel close but if you don't enjoy it enough he should divorce your selfish arse.
> 
> Not directed at you op, you sound like a great guy.
> 
> If she didn't want to be close you wouldn't get any..... you in fact have a lot to work with.
> 
> This is fixable, imho.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wish I could like this post a thousand million times.


----------



## tech-novelist

lifeistooshort said:


> I mean, us women are always being told that we should be more open to sex because that's how our men feel close to us. What's the issue if your wife uses it to feel close?
> 
> And yet so many of the TAM gallery are now bashing her for not enjoying it enough. We really can't win here unless we provide perfect porn sex.


I think you are neglecting something important here.

If my wife told me that she actually doesn't like sex at all due to emotional trauma but has to pretend to do so *and *that she doesn't want to do anything about that problem, I would not see a way forward with her. I certainly don't require "perfect porn sex", but I wouldn't want to have sex with her if she was really against it and was just pretending to be okay with it.

If she wanted to do something about it and would participate in doing something about it, that would be a different story.


----------



## lifeistooshort

technovelist said:


> I think you are neglecting something important here.
> 
> If my wife told me that she actually doesn't like sex at all due to emotional trauma but has to pretend to do so *and *that she doesn't want to do anything about that problem, I would not see a way forward with her. I certainly don't require "perfect porn sex", but I wouldn't want to have sex with her if she was really against it and was just pretending to be okay with it.
> 
> If she wanted to do something about it and would participate in doing something about it, that would be a different story.


But his wife isn't against it and actively seeks it out.

Him not being able to perform bothers her.....if she wasn't interested why would she care? 


She's now admitted what's going on, so why assume she won't do anything about it?

This is a process. 

I think he's got a lot to work with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

brooklynAnn said:


> I wish I could like this post a thousand million times.


Awwwwe, you flatter me 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## brooklynAnn

lifeistooshort said:


> Awwwwe, you flatter me
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It just makes so much sense to me.


----------



## tech-novelist

lifeistooshort said:


> But his wife isn't against it and actively seeks it out.
> 
> Him not being able to perform bothers her.....if she wasn't interested why would she care?
> 
> 
> She's now admitted what's going on, so why assume she won't do anything about it?
> 
> This is a process.
> 
> I think he's got a lot to work with.


From the original post, she didn't want to discuss it or try to do anything about it on her side. If that has changed and I missed it, that's on me.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

technovelist said:


> I think you are neglecting something important here.
> 
> If my wife told me that she actually doesn't like sex at all due to emotional trauma but has to pretend to do so *and *that she doesn't want to do anything about that problem, I would not see a way forward with her. I certainly don't require "perfect porn sex", but I wouldn't want to have sex with her if she was really against it and was just pretending to be okay with it.
> 
> If she wanted to do something about it and would participate in doing something about it, that would be a different story.


There has to be a window of grace for CSA's. They aren't born knowing how to deal with that. It takes time.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

technovelist said:


> From the original post, she didn't want to discuss it or try to do anything about it on her side. If that has changed and I missed it, that's on me.


I think she'll come around. They are just now getting serious about this stuff. She is still in self protect mode.


----------



## OpenWindows

technovelist said:


> From the original post, she didn't want to discuss it or try to do anything about it on her side. If that has changed and I missed it, that's on me.


That's a pretty common initial reaction from her. It hurt her a lot to bring it up and admit it. She may be too raw right now to handle considering the pain involved in fixing it. She ventured outside her walls, got scared, and ran back in to lock the door.

It really is the first step of a long process. Love and support will make it easier and less painful for her to start fixing it. One step at a time...


----------



## soccermom2three

technovelist said:


> From the original post, she didn't want to discuss it or try to do anything about it on her side. If that has changed and I missed it, that's on me.


He just had the conversation with her last night. If had been weeks or month, I could understand. This doesn't get fixed over night.


----------



## Grogmiester

OpenWindows said:


> That's a pretty common initial reaction from her. It hurt her a lot to bring it up and admit it. She may be too raw right now to handle considering the pain involved in fixing it. *She ventured outside her walls, got scared, and ran back in to lock the door.*
> 
> It really is the first step of a long process. Love and support will make it easier and less painful for her to start fixing it. One step at a time...


I think ^^^^ this is right on. I understand she's refusing to go to IC for the CSA but the fact she opened up to you is a BIG STEP in the right direction. 

SHe's having problems reconciling her feelings of wanting you close and THE CSA. That means she's aware there's something wrong and that is a BIG THING too. 

I think you have something to work with here. You just have to find the key to convincing her that there is a way to feel better. 

She sounds mortified about talking to a C about the CSA. The mind does funny things to deal with trauma like this. Maybe the abuse is much more than you know or she's told anyone.

This is why I asked previously how this CSA was handled. How old was she. Was it once or over time. Did she tell anyone. If she did how was it handled. These are things you will have to find out to even begin to help her. Without any C she's been dealing with this all by herself. She needs to find the key to opening up to a C.

Think about a prisoner put into solitary confinement. They go stir crazy. Well she's got this trauma locked up inside her and she's trying to figure it out on her own. Prisoners need someone to unlock and open the door be for than can get out. A CSA C can help her unlock hers.


----------



## Marduk

Here's the false dichotomy at hand:

Either she never liked having sex and committed an egregious deception (even though she was abused)

-or-

She was abused, therefore you shouldn't expect sex from her in the first place. 

What I would really say is that something has changed. 

She likely previously liked having sex with you and now doesn't. That could be a trigger for previous trauma, or just a lack of attraction or disinterest in sex in general, and the previous drama is being used as smokescreen. 

I'd say you need to get at the bottom of it, but her willingness to discuss the trauma with you but not the MC to me points at the latter. This could of course not be conscious on her part at all.

I would be physically affectionate with her without going for sex, so it's safe for her, and insist on bringing it up to MC. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## anonmd

I agree with the ladies, it'll take time. 

Maybe you all can give him a timeline of what he should do and when though. It seems like a delicate dance of pushing her to take action at some point vs. all understanding and no push resulting in no action for years. Something between a simmer and a boil...


----------



## Blossom Leigh

marduk said:


> Here's the false dichotomy at hand:
> 
> Either she never liked having sex and committed an egregious deception (even though she was abused)
> 
> -or-
> 
> She was abused, therefore you shouldn't expect sex from her in the first place.
> 
> What I would really say is that something has changed.
> 
> She likely previously liked having sex with you and now doesn't. That could be a trigger for previous trauma, or just a lack of attraction or disinterest in sex in general, and the previous drama is being used as smokescreen.
> 
> I'd say you need to get at the bottom of it, but her willingness to discuss the trauma with you but not the MC to me points at the latter. This could of course not be conscious on her part at all.
> 
> I would be physically affectionate with her without going for sex, so it's safe for her, and insist on bringing it up to MC.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





anonmd said:


> I agree with the ladies, it'll take time.
> 
> Maybe you all can give him a timeline of what he should do and when though. It seems like a delicate dance of pushing her to take action at some point vs. all understanding and no push resulting in no action for years. Something between a simmer and a boil...


As you dig into these issues you will want to keep this balance in perspective. You will be balancing reasonable patience with how deep this goes and her capacity and willingness to progress through healing.


----------



## MRR

anonmd said:


> I agree with the ladies, it'll take time.
> 
> Maybe you all can give him a timeline of what he should do and when though. It seems like a delicate dance of pushing her to take action at some point vs. all understanding and no push resulting in no action for years. Something between a simmer and a boil...


My ex used her 'date rape' situation as an excuse not to have sex all the time, after our marriage got stale. Of course, I was overly sensitive to the situation and would go months with barely any affection, until we would have that talk again, and so on. 

Later, she admitted it had nothing to do with that. I am not saying that is what is happening here but from your original post, as i said before, something feels very off. I would not go jumping through any hoops until you got more out of her. 

My ex and I had great sex at the beginning of our relationship, she initated often and in semi public places even. It wasnt until she started being more interested in other people that she talked about her 'issues' and not wanting to have sex b/c of it.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

So, I'm the only one who read his other threads, I see. This one is cute. Poor little wife who was abused as a child. What will he do?

Do the same thing you did when she left you for her ex a few years back then came back to you as plan B when it didn't work out.

Nothing.

Do the same thing you are going to do about her locking down her phone again and acting suspicious.

Nothing.

Do what you are going to do about the 2 years that you've been married and she hasn't been very nice to you.

Nothing.

Do what you did when you realized, after her cutting off sex after the honeymoon, that you were a safety net for her and her kids.

Nothing.

Because if you try to work with her through this fire, you WILL get burned.

She may love you, but she is surely not "IN LOVE" with you. That's the problem with the sex. It's you, not the abuse.

That may be harsh, but if there's anyone who can dish out THAT advice, it's me. I've been there.

Good luck man. And get out of that mess as soon as you can.

Macho


----------



## MachoMcCoy

Did I see you're 37? You are a GOD to me. You get a do-over. Take it.


----------



## brooklynAnn

Yikes. @MachoMcCoy, maybe this time will be different. Maybe, he will be able to break away from the cycle this time. Or maybe, he will choose to push and she will be able to get the kinda help she needs to face her demons and work thru this. 

Maybe, this time will be different.


----------



## nirvana

I am not 100% convinced about her excuse.
As someone said, some women use this as a reason to avoid sex. THey may be LD and need some justification to prove their lack of interest.
There are times when my wife uses excuses like tired, or stressed or you not spending enough time with the kids or blah blah which are in effect just a woman blaming a man for her shortcomings.

There are some cases when these reasons are genuine, and some times when they are not. Fact is many women lie a lot and are highly manipulative and if you call them out, they accuse of being an MCP or a misogynist.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

OP just be genuine in your efforts but remain aware of being played.


----------



## Evinrude58

breathedeep said:


> You are right. Something has changed. It was almost like a light switch. I am hoping we can get to the bottom of it in our marriage counseling.


Simple: She's having an affair. She wasn't faking enjoying having sex. You would have noticed. You can't TOTALLY fake enjoying something, unless you are some kind of actor. She's feeding you a line of bs, hoping you will want a divorce, or to keep you on the hook for living expenses while she has another sex partner.

JMO


----------



## Evinrude58

MachoMcCoy said:


> So, I'm the only one who read his other threads, I see. This one is cute. Poor little wife who was abused as a child. What will he do?
> 
> Do the same thing you did when she left you for her ex a few years back then came back to you as plan B when it didn't work out.
> 
> Nothing.
> 
> Do the same thing you are going to do about her locking down her phone again and acting suspicious.
> 
> Nothing.
> 
> Do what you are going to do about the 2 years that you've been married and she hasn't been very nice to you.
> 
> Nothing.
> 
> Do what you did when you realized, after her cutting off sex after the honeymoon, that you were a safety net for her and her kids.
> 
> Nothing.
> 
> Because if you try to work with her through this fire, you WILL get burned.
> 
> She may love you, but she is surely not "IN LOVE" with you. That's the problem with the sex. It's you, not the abuse.
> 
> That may be harsh, but if there's anyone who can dish out THAT advice, it's me. I've been there.
> 
> Good luck man. And get out of that mess as soon as you can.
> 
> Macho


Ok.... I back-read after I posted. Problem solved. Divorce, move on. Or... do nothing.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

CSA is horrible and it lurks behind many marital issues. Here's my question, were you a virgin when you two were married?


----------



## bandit.45

Macho nailed it. She is not into you OP. Never has been. You are an ATM to her.


----------



## AliceA

So she's saying she faked it until she got married and now she doesn't feel she has to bother anymore?


----------



## breathedeep

breeze said:


> So she's saying she faked it until she got married and now she doesn't feel she has to bother anymore?


She isn't saying this in so many words, but that is how the timing of the events has played out, yes.


----------



## bandit.45

breathedeep said:


> She isn't saying this in so many words, but that is how the timing of the events has played out, yes.


So....

How much more of your life are you going to waste on this woman who repeatedly cheats, lies and defrauds you? 

I don't give a sh!t if she is CSA, ADHD, BPD, LAPD, BLT, or XYZ... 

At some point you have to accept you cannot save her if she does not want to save herself. Instead of trying to empathize with her, empathize with yourself. Get help for your co-dependent tendencies...your need to save her and make her right. 

She's never going to be the woman you need her to be my friend. I think it's great you have all these feel-gooders here telling you she can be helped. That is why I love my brothers and sisters here on TAM... they are so annoyingly hopeful and positive....

But your wife is not the type who can be fixed. She has already tipped over into sociopathy or personality disorder in my opinion, and once they get to that point there is no coming back.

She has all but admitted faking enjoying sex long enough to get you to marry her. She has shown over your two-year long relationship that she is adulterous, conniving, manipulative and selfish. Sorry, but those words are not the key phrases I want to hear when I'm choosing my mate.


----------



## bandit.45

And I while I'm shooting my piehole off, will add another thing: I think it is important to try to help dysfunctional people. But at some point the helper has to step back and consider whether the person s/he is helping is actually wanting help, or wanting to exploit that help.


----------



## AliceA

This issue isn't going to go away. She's been in counselling forever and hasn't even talked about it; maybe she never will. Now that she's reached the point where the rewards don't justify the effort, it's only downhill from here. Due to the fact that you will try to give her all the affection, love and attention she would get as if she were in a sexually active marriage, there won't be any repercussions and there won't be any effort necessary on her part.

I don't really see any other way this will play out, though. You have to do what you have to do. Just remember that the most obvious actions aren't always the best ones. 

IMO, the best thing you can do is to be honest in your reactions. If you're feeling frustrated, or feeling unloved, be honest. I've never been a fan of 'fake it til you make it'. She has faked it and look where you both ended up.


----------



## farsidejunky

It is common for those with CSA, especially those who were abused by family members, to psychologically flip a switch when a bf/gf becomes a significant other.

Upon marriage, they then become family, and are "no longer safe".

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Annie123

Do you feel loved and respected by your wife?

In one of your previous threads from less than two months ago you said that she gets angry if you don't tell her how you feel and if you do, she flips out even more. 



> Almost three years walking on eggshells with her... it is exhausting sometimes.


What are you getting out of this marriage? What are the positives? Are there any? Do you like being around her and spending time with her?

I'm not trying to say that I understand what she went through as a kid and I'm not trying to minimize it. It just seems that she is using that experience to justify all the bull$hit that she does to you and puts you through because she knows she can and she knows that it works. 

She's left you before, she's cheated on you, she uses the fingerprint passcode on her phone and disappears for hours at a time. And now this.
I don't know. I just think something is wrong here, there's more to her story and there's something shes not telling you.


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## breathedeep

farsidejunky said:


> It is common for those with CSA, especially those who were abused by family members, to psychologically flip a switch when a bf/gf becomes a significant other.
> 
> *Upon marriage, they then become family, and are "no longer safe".*
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


When I read that, it made my stomach sink; she has said this to me before, except it was when we were dating.

While she and I were only seeing each other, she had no problem having an orgasm. It was only once she and I got serious and we moved in together that the switch 'flipped' and she could not. We talked about this, and she said it was because while she and I were not serious, I was not family, and not a threat. Once she and I became 'family', she said she could no longer orgasm.

It seems like this is a two-step switch, and the second stage flipped after we actually became family.


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## bandit.45

Let me ask you this way...

Do you think you have what it takes to save her, and save your marriage? How is it that you think you are so much more in tune with her needs than anyone else in her life has been? There have been so many people in her life who have tried to save her and failed. What is so special about you that you think you can bring her back from the land of the lost? 

There is an arrogant presumptuousness about your actions that you need to stop and really look at... and I mean this in the kindest way. I'm on your side, but in this case, you are your own worst enemy. You keep setting yourself up for failure... just like that immigrant dude in line ahead of you at the convenience store who blows all of his hard-earned laboring money on PowerBall tickets and holds the line up while he cashes in the one-dollar winner that he spent $100 bucks over a week's time to get? You say to yourself "Man, how pathetic! He could be using that money to buy food for his kids, or saving for a house or something..."

Well, how is what you are doing any different?


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## ConanHub

bandit.45 said:


> So....
> 
> How much more of your life are you going to waste on this woman who repeatedly cheats, lies and defrauds you?
> 
> I don't give a sh!t if she is CSA, ADHD, BPD, LAPD, BLT, or XYZ...
> 
> At some point you have to accept you cannot save her if she does not want to save herself. Instead of trying to empathize with her, empathize with yourself. Get help for your co-dependent tendencies...your need to save her and make her right.
> 
> She's never going to be the woman you need her to be my friend. I think it's great you have all these feel-gooders here telling you she can be helped. That is why I love my brothers and sisters here on TAM... they are so annoyingly hopeful and positive....
> 
> But your wife is not the type who can be fixed. She has already tipped over into sociopathy or personality disorder in my opinion, and once they get to that point there is no coming back.
> 
> She has all but admitted faking enjoying sex long enough to get you to marry her. She has shown over your two-year long relationship that she is adulterous, conniving, manipulative and selfish. Sorry, but those words are not the key phrases I want to hear when I'm choosing my mate.


Umm. Yeah! What he said!

(While peaking out from behind bandit's big back)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tech-novelist

This is sounding more and more like BPD. Who's the expert on that?


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## Annie123

technovelist said:


> This is sounding more and more like BPD. Who's the expert on that?


 @Uptown is.


----------



## breathedeep

Tonight she and I continued our discussion from last night and I was able to get clarification on several issues.

I asked her if I heard her correctly and that she has never discussed her past sexual abuse with any of her counselors. She said no, she has not. She said that her current counselor tried to bring up the topic of sex once, and that she (my wife) walked out of the session. When she returned, she said she instructed her counselor never to speak of it again or she would quit her counseling sessions.

I asked her if there was anything I had done to make her not feel safe with me. She said no, it wasn't about me. She said this is all about her past.

I asked her if she could clarify what she meant by 'not being present' and 'playing a part'. She repeated exactly what she said last night. She said that as we are having sex, she is being what she thinks I want her to be based on how she thinks someone would react to the situation. She said she doesn't really know any other way to be and that she has been like this all of her life.

She told me tonight that she sees herself as an object to be used for a man's pleasure and that is her only worth and that when we are having sex, she is just a sexual tool for me. I asked her if I had ever done anything to make her feel this way, and she said that it wasn't me, it was what she learned from her abuse and she doesn't know how to feel any other way about it. I hadn't heard this one from her before, and it hit me kind of hard.

We sat there for a few seconds, as I didn't really know what to say to the last comment, so she broke the silence by telling me that she is just going to stop telling me how she feels because she just gets punished for it. I told her I wasn't punishing her, I was just trying to process what she had just said. She said that because now I don't want to have sex with her, I am punishing her. I told her that I never said I didn't want to, but that it is very difficult for me to get excited about having sex with her after hearing the things I've heard in the last few days, and especially after hearing her tell me she feels like I am just using her as a sex object. She then told me I was blowing things out of proportion.

We had to end the discussion there because my son knocked on our bedroom door because we were supposed to be getting ready to go to dinner and she and I were taking too long.

That's the update from tonight. I know I need to respond to several posts from others here, so I'll try to do that tomorrow.

I look forward to everyone's thoughts on tonight's discussion.


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## ConanHub

Good discussion. Be encouraging and loving when she opens up.

She doesn't view you as just using her, that is how she views herself and doesn't know, hasn't learned how to be something else.

She does like sex from you but doesn't know any other way to be with you than what she has previously known and done.

This part is about her. Don't take it personally and let her open up to you.

Take her in your arms. Make love to her to let her know you accept her and encourage her to keep opening up to you. That you accept and love her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frusdil

@breathedeep What a heartbreaking situation for both of you. I feel for both of you. I'm not saying what your wife did was right, but it is understandable...it was the only way she could cope, and that's heartbreaking. However, it's critical for both your sakes to start working on this now, together. You both deserve a close, loving, intimate marriage - and as other posters who've been abused have said, you CAN have it.

I wonder if your wife would consider attending the appointments with the counsellor when this is first brought up, via chat or email? It may be easier for her to lay everything out there when she doesn't have to do so in person. You could be with the counsellor and your wife at home, or whatever makes her more comfortable. Just a suggestion.

Something else that may help is to ask your wife to tell you what SHE needs you to do, for you to be her safe place. You could also say that you'd like to take sex off the table for a little while, while the two of you start to work through this together, and that you love and cherish her and are in this for the long haul with her. That this is a journey that you want to take with her.

If she absolutely refuses to address this, I'm not sure your marriage can survive. While you do need to be compassionate and understanding, it's just not reasonable for you to have to go without sex for the rest of your life! It'd be one thing perhaps if she were disabled or physically ill in some way, but that's not the case here...there is a fixable problem that she refuses to fix, that's a rough thing to ask a spouse to accept.


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## farsidejunky

@Uptown, some input here would be helpful.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## PreRaphaelite

What your wife did may be understandable, but she is also seriously mistreating you, using her past to emotionally browbeat you into feeling guilty.

A very vicious cycle. Look at what you wrote:

"We sat there for a few seconds, as I didn't really know what to say to the last comment, so she broke the silence by telling me that _*she is just going to stop telling me how she feels because she just gets punished for it*_. I told her I wasn't punishing her, I was just trying to process what she had just said. _*She said that because now I don't want to have sex with her, I am punishing her*_. I told her that I never said I didn't want to, but that it is very difficult for me to get excited about having sex with her after hearing the things I've heard in the last few days, and especially after hearing her tell me she feels like I am just using her as a sex object. *She then told me I was blowing things out of proportion*."

She has created an intolerable situation for you. Either you have to continue to want sex with her, sex that she doesn't want and from which she has confessed to "checking out of" for two and a half years, or you are punishing her for not wanting sex. The first is utterly humiliating, both are emotional blackmail.

You can understand this all you like, but it cannot stay this way. If this does not change, then I think you know the outcome -- it will be over.

She apparently does not see what she's doing and someone, a counselor, someone for heavens sake needs to make her realize what she is doing.


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## Evinrude58

farsidejunky said:


> It is common for those with CSA, especially those who were abused by family members, to psychologically flip a switch when a bf/gf becomes a significant other.
> 
> Upon marriage, they then become family, and are "no longer safe".
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


That's crazy! I'm going to have to research this to get my head around it. Yet another reason to throw away the key on people that do this to someone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tech-novelist

ConanHub said:


> Good discussion. Be encouraging and loving when she opens up.


Why do you think she is going to open up? I can't detect any sign of her being interested in ever doing so, in what @breathedeep has posted so far.


----------



## ConanHub

technovelist said:


> Why do you think she is going to open up? I can't detect any sign of her being interested in ever doing so, in what @breathedeep has posted so far.


I could be wrong, anonymous forum and all, but I really think she opened up to him there.

I think it is really hard for her but she might be starting to.

I do not excuse any of her former behavior but this conversation has something to it.

I believe she desires sex with OP but isn't equipped with anything else in the bedroom.

The only thing she knows is acting in a way she thinks her partner will like.

Could be bvllshyt but I am not getting that feeling here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

She did open up to him. He deserves great credit for handling it the way he did.

But man...her push/pull is vicious and is indicative of a PD. Brother, you are really going to have to keep your knight in shining armor in check.

You cannot save her. She has to want to save herself. But first she has to believe she needs saving. Then she actually has to choose to save herself by doing exactly what she is, at the moment, unwilling to do.

I see no hope until she is willing to explore that.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## ReturntoZero

breathedeep said:


> What I don't understand is that our sex life had been great until we got married in September 2015(or sometime around that time). I would have NEVER thought she would ever tell me she didn't enjoy it and has to go someplace else in her head. Either she has been doing a great job of faking, I am completely clueless, or some combination of both.


Think about it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

OP... Remember me mentioning ACOA to you in your other thread? Your ACOA patterns play directly into her CSA patterns. You will need to educate yourself on both at the same time. I started a thread on it, and if you go there, you will already recognize patterns here.

ACOA's choose partners who are emotionally unavailable. The "clueless" is probably unconscious denial that she is not fully available to you. You will have to focus on saving yourself as an ACOA and prayerfully by you choosing to save yourself, she will choose to save herself. If you choose to save her in a severely codependent way, you could fully lose yourself AND her.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...al-trauma-its-effects-life-relationships.html


----------



## Grogmiester

breathedeep said:


> <snip>
> *I realize there are differing opinions as to wether her CSA is real or she's just using it as an excuse. I fall into the "I think it's real" camp. I suspect its a trigger for me in a way.*
> 
> *I chose these sections for a reason.*
> 
> *I asked her if there was anything I had done to make her not feel safe with me. She said no, it wasn't about me. She said this is all about her past.*
> 
> *Here you're showing compassion and caring about her. She responds truthfully its not you its all about her past. This is good.*
> 
> *I asked her if she could clarify what she meant by 'not being present' and 'playing a part'. She repeated exactly what she said last night. She said that as we are having sex, she is being what she thinks I want her to be based on how she thinks someone would react to the situation. She said she doesn't really know any other way to be and that she has been like this all of her life.*
> 
> *She opens up and explains how she felt when having sex. I think this is good.*
> 
> She told me tonight that she sees herself as an object to be used for a man's pleasure and that is her only worth and that when we are having sex, she is just a sexual tool for me. *I asked her if I had ever done anything to make her feel this way, and she said that it wasn't me, it was what she learned from her abuse and she doesn't know how to feel any other way about it.* *I hadn't heard this one from her before, and it hit me kind of hard.*
> 
> *Now here is where I think everything started to go south but you didn't know it yet. You asked a normal question and I suspect you must have looked pretty sad and overwhelmed at that moment. What follows is the reaction to your sadness .*
> 
> *We sat there for a few seconds, as I didn't really know what to say to the last comment, so she broke the silence by telling me that she is just going to stop telling me how she feels because she just gets punished for it. *
> 
> *She's upset. She's overwhelmed with all the logic being thrown around. She see's your sadness and she makes it your fault. Now she's trying to manipulate you. It's your fault, your hurting her.*
> 
> *I told her I wasn't punishing her, I was just trying to process what she had just said. She said that because now I don't want to have sex with her, I am punishing her.
> *
> *She again is manipulating you . Your trying to logically process it. I get that but she does not see that. You don't want to have sex with her. It's your fault.
> *
> *I told her that I never said I didn't want to, but that it is very difficult for me to get excited about having sex with her after hearing the things I've heard in the last few days, and especially after hearing her tell me she feels like I am just using her as a sex object. *
> 
> *Again you apply logic but you've already lost. In the span of a couple of minutes you went from a normal caring conversation to "it's your fault".*
> 
> 
> *She then told me I was blowing things out of proportion.*
> 
> *This again is her manipulating you into thinking it YOUR FAULT. She minimizes the abuse and at the same time blames you for blowing this out of proportion. Your head must have been "spinning". You didn't know what the he!! happened.
> 
> I said before if she doesn't go to C your M is toast. After reading your last update I guess I'm a little more concerned. I think she's showing some personalty issues. Most D do 50/50 custody.
> 
> If she doesn't get C she'll have your son 50% with out you. Her condition won't get better over time, it will get worse. I think it's pretty bad now. You're in a tough position.*
> 
> <snip>


----------



## Grogmiester

This site has some good information on personality disorders,

Out of the FOG


----------



## MattMatt

breathedeep said:


> What I don't understand is that our sex life had been great until we got married in September 2015(or sometime around that time). I would have NEVER thought she would ever tell me she didn't enjoy it and has to go someplace else in her head. Either she has been doing a great job of faking, I am completely clueless, or some combination of both.


People like your wife are experts at pretence. 

They have to be. It is one of the first survival skills they learn as an abused child.

What is interesting is that she feels comfortable enough with you to really open up with you. And not her counsellors of many years standing.

There's a lot of hope and potential for a good, positive outcome.

Maybe a counsellor who specialises in the treatment of adult CSA survivors?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Astute observations @Grogmiester. I like it.

She pushed him out.

She did it with Emotional Blackmail - used guilt to control the situation.

Intent - self protect... She started feeling pain, viewed you as the source.. pushed you out, but its about her pain.

OP, google Complex PTSD... I think you will find the patterns resonate.


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband

breathdeep - Here is my story - http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/204514-what-do-i-do-am-i-unreasonable.html

My wife threatened divorce if I would have brought it up in first go around. 26+ years later abuse was still an issue. I learned that you can't force someone to go to counseling, doesn't work too well.

Although, by finally getting to the point of telling her to talk to counselor or I walk, it did force her to make a decision.

Here is a link to a blog written by a woman that has expressed in some of her articles of how she used to feel like her husband was just using her, until she finally saw the light.

Unbearable Lessons - The Forgiven Wife

New to this blog? Start here. - The Forgiven Wife

I will try to find more specific links and post later. I have read a lot of the articles to get a better understanding of my wife. Your wife may identify with some of these articles.

Another thing that helped my wife was this book - Official Site for Shannon Ethridge Ministries The Sexually Confident Wife - Official Site for Shannon Ethridge Ministries


----------



## 2ndchanceGuy

breathedeep said:


> Tonight she and I continued our discussion from last night and I was able to get clarification on several issues.
> 
> I asked her if I heard her correctly and *that she has never discussed her past sexual abuse with any of her counselors. She said no, she has not. She said that her current counselor tried to bring up the topic of sex once, and that she (my wife) walked out of the session. When she returned, she said she instructed her counselor never to speak of it again or she would quit her counseling sessions.*
> 
> This is your problem ^^
> If she won't budge on this ( and she's been seeing a counselor for 6-7 years ?? ) I would have to give her an ultimatum , talk about it and try to fix it NOW  or I'd leave.....
> She sounds like she uses her past for control. My X-wife was very similar
> 
> OP good luck, also this is a LARGE bomb


----------



## Thor

Breathedeep, sorry you're in the club nobody wants to be in. You're a "Secondary Survivor" of child sex abuse. Your wife is a Survivor, though I do much prefer the term victim. My wife was sexually abused as a young girl and has not sought any trauma therapy.

I have to run to work but will be back to comment when I can. I haven't read more than a skim of your first post. In the mean time, do some research on being a Secondary Survivor. The book "Haunted Marriage" is a good place to start. It isn't easy to find but it is out there. Try the author's website. If you can't find it let me know and I'll see if I can track it down for you.

Your wife is going to have to confront her demons via qualified trauma therapy. You are not, and cannot be, her therapist. You can support her in going to therapy. Don't expect her to tell you much if anything about the abuse or what happens in therapy. Ideally you would be in MC with someone who coordinates or is aware of your wife's IC. Your wife's IC should be a different person than your MC. You might visit her IC once in a while but it would remain your wife's IC.

The other thing you can and should do is set boundaries. You can't force her to have sex or to enjoy it. But you can require she work on being the healthiest and best partner she is capable of. So you should require she seek qualified trauma therapy as a condition of remaining married. Do this is a caring way. But realize that she has an obligation to either seek such therapy or to remove any expectation that you will remain with her. That is, healthy sex is a central purpose and central need in a marriage. Without it, you are just room mates. She has no right to expect you to live up to various obligations (financial, time, emotion) while she does not.

But, she learned about sex in a terribly dysfunctional way. She also has learned some really dysfunctional attitudes and coping mechanisms as a result. Many times the abuse events are seemingly fairly minor, yet the long term psychological damage is huge. How her parents reacted, what the abuser said, and other such events may have affected her more than the actual abuse itself. She may have gone through a period of promiscuity as a teen, which is very common, and been used by a number of people. This causes further trauma.

Which puts you, the Secondary, in a tough spot. Of course you love her and you have great sympathy for what happened to her. You hurt for her. You mourn the little girl who lost so much and can never know a normal life. Yet you have needs in a relationship. You can't be happy with such dysfunction in a marriage. Be aware there is no easy path for you or for her.


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## Grogmiester

OP ,,,,,, just an observation.

Your thread is about 24 hrs old and you have more insight (information) into where your sitting than I knew after being married to a CSA victim for a decade. 

This is where the internet and forums like the shine.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

PreRaphaelite said:


> What your wife did may be understandable, but she is also seriously mistreating you, using her past to emotionally browbeat you into feeling guilty.
> 
> A very vicious cycle. Look at what you wrote:
> 
> "We sat there for a few seconds, as I didn't really know what to say to the last comment, so she broke the silence by telling me that _*she is just going to stop telling me how she feels because she just gets punished for it*_. I told her I wasn't punishing her, I was just trying to process what she had just said. _*She said that because now I don't want to have sex with her, I am punishing her*_. I told her that I never said I didn't want to, but that it is very difficult for me to get excited about having sex with her after hearing the things I've heard in the last few days, and especially after hearing her tell me she feels like I am just using her as a sex object. *She then told me I was blowing things out of proportion*."
> 
> She has created an intolerable situation for you. Either you have to continue to want sex with her, sex that she doesn't want and from which she has confessed to "checking out of" for two and a half years, or you are punishing her for not wanting sex. The first is utterly humiliating, both are emotional blackmail.
> 
> You can understand this all you like, but it cannot stay this way. If this does not change, then I think you know the outcome -- it will be over.
> 
> She apparently does not see what she's doing and someone, a counselor, someone for heavens sake needs to make her realize what she is doing.


I agree and she doubled down on a very subtle passive aggressive threat.


----------



## lifeistooshort

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I agree and she doubled down on a very subtle passive aggressive threat.


But he kind of is punishing her, even if it's not his intent.

What would we tell a woman who stopped sleeping with her hb after he confessed that he had to visualize porn stars to stay hard, and he was upset because he still wanted sex? 

She'd be told that men feel close through sex snd no good can come from not having sex with him, and she has to help him reconnect. 

I can understand that it's tough for him under the circumstances but what possible incentive could she possibly have to continue to communicate honestly with him if his response is to stop sex? 

She didn't say she's in pain or that she doesn't want it, she says she dissociates. 

Big difference.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

lifeistooshort said:


> But he kind of is punishing her, even if it's not his intent.
> 
> What would we tell a woman who stopped sleeping with her hb after he confessed that he had to visualize porn stars to stay hard, and he was upset because he still wanted sex?
> 
> She'd be told that men feel close through sex snd no good can come from not having sex with him, and she has to help him reconnect.
> 
> I can understand that it's tough for him under the circumstances but what possible incentive could she possibly have to continue to communicate honestly with him if his response is to stop sex?
> 
> She didn't say she's in pain or that she doesn't want it, she says she dissociates.
> 
> Big difference.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The porn is a bad comparison but I absolutely agree with your sentiment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

ConanHub said:


> The porn is a bad comparison but I absolutely agree with your sentiment.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It was one I could think of off the top of my head because it's seen so many threads here, but why do you think it's a bad comparison? 

I get that it's inherently different from childhood abuse but porn also causes the user to dissociate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

lifeistooshort said:


> It was one I could think of off the top of my head because it's seen so many threads here, but why do you think it's a bad comparison?
> 
> I get that it's inherently different from childhood abuse but porn also causes the user to dissociate.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Stupid technical difficulties.

Different origins and methods.

I actually would not necessarily encourage a wife to keep having sex with her pornwashed husband. He would need to be weened off and reestablish healthy sexual patterns.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

lifeistooshort said:


> But he kind of is punishing her, even if it's not his intent.


 Okay, but we will disagree.



> What would we tell a woman who stopped sleeping with her hb after he confessed that he had to visualize porn stars to stay hard, and he was upset because he still wanted sex?
> 
> She'd be told that men feel close through sex snd no good can come from not having sex with him, and she has to help him reconnect.
> 
> I can understand that it's tough for him under the circumstances but what possible incentive could she possibly have to continue to communicate honestly with him if his response is to stop sex?
> 
> She didn't say she's in pain or that she doesn't want it, she says she dissociates.
> 
> Big difference.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We are talking two different things and I have no clue why or how your post references mine.


----------



## JohnA

You need to read up on @Uptown posts. He has dealt with this issues and offered great insight into how CSA vitas think. 

I think a large part of your pre-marriage sex life was tied up in getting you to comment. But now you are morphing into an authority figure, and then into her abuser, who was the first authority figure in her life. Think about it. At this point being with you at some level is like sleeping with her abuser. 

The next step, to often, is to rebel by using drugs or alcohol and multiple affairs. I've read repeatedly that the odds of finding a prositute or a porn star who not a CSA victim is as good as a buying a wining lottery ticket. This is how deep the problem is. It is also common for a CSA victim to become emotional frozen at the age the abuse occurred.


----------



## lifeistooshort

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Okay, but we will disagree.
> 
> We are talking two different things and I have no clue why or how your post references mine.


You responded to a post referencing her telling him that he was punishing her for being honest and that she just wouldn't talk to him. 

You responded that it was passive aggressive. 

If you were referring to something else then I should have responded to a different post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

lifeistooshort said:


> You respondedw to a post referencing her telling him that he was punishing her for being honest and that she just wouldn't talk to him.


We took the post differently. I do not agree with your summary.



> You responded that it was passive aggressive.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, I said something very different. I said she doubled down on a very subtle passive aggressive threat.


----------



## breathedeep

Annie123 said:


> Do you feel loved and respected by your wife?


Sometimes loved, but rarely respected.



> What are you getting out of this marriage? What are the positives? Are there any? Do you like being around her and spending time with her?


We genuinely have our good days together. The problem is that her mood and temperament can switch in the blink of an eye, and an entire weekend will be gone. I always feel guilty feeling this way, but our good days are outnumbered by our mediocre and bad days.


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## breathedeep

bandit.45 said:


> Let me ask you this way...
> 
> *Do you think you have what it takes to save her, and save your marriage?* How is it that you think you are so much more in tune with her needs than anyone else in her life has been?


You know, all the typical 'true love' stuff that your significant other tells you like "I have finally found someone that truly gets me." and "You are different from everyone else I have had in my life. You actually love me."

I'm not saying I am any more equipped to help her than anyone who has come into her life before me, but I am married to her now and I am doing my best to be compassionate and empathetic to the woman I chose as my wife and the pain she has gone through (and continues to go through). I am trying to honor my vows of 'for better or worse', and not run at the site of trouble.

I don't have a definitive answer to your question, but I can say I will give it my best shot. At least if it doesn't work out, I can sleep better knowing I fought for it.


----------



## AliceA

Someone tells you that they dissociate when you have sex with them, that they don't enjoy sex with you and they have been faking it, yet turns around and tells you that you are punishing them by not wanting to have sex with them anymore... and people come on here talking about how it could be seen as punishment and he should just suck it up and have sex. Just try to wrap your head around that for a minute. May as well ask him to go and throw himself off a bridge because he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

I can imagine how I'd feel being told that. Sometimes it's not all about the other person. He has feelings too. Seeing it as him 'punishing' her makes it all about her as if he's not important enough to have his own reaction to how he is being treated; that because she was abused in the past that makes his feelings insignificant.


----------



## ReturntoZero

Look at all that power she gives him.

(A sure-fire sign of the disordered)


----------



## Uptown

Breathe, I agree with @*technovelist*, @*Annie123*, and @*farsidejunky* that the behaviors you describe -- i.e., temper tantrums, verbal abuse, controlling behavior, strong abandonment fear, and always being "The Victim" -- are some of the classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder).

Clearly, you are aware that these BPD traits have been occurring from the beginning. When *Technovelist* wrote _"I'm concerned about BPD"_ last November, you responded, _"Yes, I have made myself aware of BPD since she and I have been together. Also Narcissistic Personality Disorder. She exhibits traits of both."_ [Your 11/18/15 thread.]



> She has said that her therapist has commented on how quickly she can get over her anger. Many times, she will absolutely lose her temper at me, her kids, my kids, and two minutes later, she is ok. [Your 11/18/15 post.]


Yes, this is how BPDers behave. Like young children, they have little ability to regulate their own emotions. This is such a key feature of BPD that a large segment of the psychiatric community has been lobbying for two decades to change its name to "Emotional Regulation Disorder."



> She was sexually abused by a family member, as well as family friends.


Likewise, my BPDer exW was sexually abused by her own father starting at about age 7 -- and she had been emotionally abused before that. A recent large-scale study found that 70% of BPDers report they had been abused or abandoned in childhood.



> Almost three years walking on eggshells with her. [Your 11/30/15 post.]]


As @*technovelist* mentioned last November (11/30 post), _"Walking on eggshells is a typical description of how people behave when their significant others have high BPD behaviors."_ This is why the best-selling BPD book (targeted to the abused partners) is called _Stop Walking on Eggshells._



> What I don't understand is that our sex life had been great until we got married in September 2015. I would have NEVER thought she would ever tell me she didn't enjoy it and has to go someplace else in her head. Either she has been doing a great job of faking, I am completely clueless, or both.


She almost certainly was NOT faking it if she is a BPDer (i.e., has strong and persistent traits). It is common, in BPDer relationships, for the sex to be passionate and intense during the courtship and then go off a cliff right after the marriage, if not before. 

Generally, the reason for this dramatic change is not due to faking or manipulation. Instead, the reason is that -- during the courtship period -- the BPDer's infatuation convinces her that you are the nearly perfect man who has come to rescue her from unhappiness. In this way, her infatuation holds her two fears (abandonment and engulfment) at bay. Hence, for a period that typically lasts 4 to 6 months, the BDer is able to enjoy intense sexual activity with abandon -- without feeling overwhelmed or threatened. Yet, as soon as her infatuation starts evaporating, those two fears return in full force. 

As before, the BPDer will continue to crave intimacy like nearly every other adult. Yet, because her engulfment fear has now returned, she will be unable to tolerate intimacy for very long. The problem with intimacy is that, because she has such a fragile weak sense of self identity, she will quickly feel like she is losing her identity by merging into your strong personality. In this way, she may feel like her identity is evaporating into thin air -- a very scary feeling. She also will have a strong feeling that you somehow are "controlling" her.



> While she and I were only seeing each other, she had no problem having an orgasm. It was only once she and I got serious and we moved in together that the switch 'flipped' and she could not. We talked about this, and she said it was because while she and I were not serious, I was not family, and not a threat. Once she and I became 'family', she said she could no longer orgasm.


As @*farsidejunky* explained above (#84), _"It is common for those with CSA, especially those who were abused by family members, to psychologically flip a switch when a bf/gf becomes a significant other.... and are "no longer safe."_ As I tried to explain above, the likely problem is not that you became "family" but, rather, that you became _close_ to her. As soon as she started developing feelings for you, and as soon as her infatuation evaporated, you started triggering both of her fears.



> I know I need to show her I can be her "safe place."


No, you cannot be her safe place. If she is a BPDer, you became unsafe the moment you drew close to her, at which point you started triggering her fears of abandonment and engulfment. If your objective had been for her to feel safe around you, then you should have remained being one of her casual friends, business associates, or a complete stranger. Generally, NONE of those people make her feel unsafe because they pose no threat to her fears of abandonment and engulfment. There is no close relationship to be abandoned and no intimacy to trigger the fear of engulfment.



> I also have to wonder what part I have played in not making her feel safe enough to feel she could talk to me about this earlier.


If she is a BPDer, it really does not much matter "what part" you played. No matter what you did, it was simply impossible for her to feel safe in a close relationship with you. With BPDers, you both are in a lose/lose situation. This conundrum occurs because her two great fears (abandonment and engulfment) lie at opposite ends of the very same spectrum. 

Hence, you will start triggering one fear (engulfment) when drawing closer to her and will start triggering the other fear (abandonment) as you move away. Moreover, there is no midpoint position (between "too far away" and "too close") where you can safely stand. That Goldilocks position simply doesn't exist. I know because I foolishly spent 15 years hunting for it.



> She is actively TRYING to push me away.


Yes, if she is a BPDer, she will create fights -- over absolutely nothing at all -- to push you away and give her breathing room. Importantly, this usually is not done in a manipulative way. Rather, she typically will be absolutely convinced that the absurd allegation coming out of her mouth is absolutely true. And if you somehow manage to convince her it is not, her subconscious mind will instantly substitute another explanation -- as absurd as the first -- to explain the intense feeling of suffocation she is experiencing. That feeling is so intense that she is convinced it MUST be true and MUST be your fault.



> Another thought in my head was when she asked me why I would want to be with someone who isn't present during sex was that she is trying to push me away.


The push-away and pull-back cycle you are seeing is one of the hallmarks of a BPDer relationship. As I noted earlier, the push-away usually is accomplished by her starting a fight. Significantly, the very WORST fights typically will occur during or immediately after the very BEST of times -- e.g., right after sex or a great weekend, or during the middle of a great vacation. 

The reason, of course, is that a BPDer cannot tolerate intimacy for very long without feeling suffocated and controlled. Because she experiences these feelings as accurate reflections of reality, she will be convinced -- at a conscious level -- that YOU are the cause.



> She has become increasingly more and more combative with me during and after sex.


Like I said, the worst fights will start at the very best of times.



> She said that as we are having sex, she is being what she thinks I want her to be based on how she thinks someone would react to the situation. She said she doesn't really know any other way to be and that she has been like this all of her life.


Because a BPDer's emotional development was frozen (by a trauma) at age 3 or 4, she never had an opportunity to develop a cohesive, strong sense of who she is. She therefore has no strong self identity to ground her, center her, or provide a stable sense of direction. 

This is why a BPDer will emulate the behavior of someone in the room to ensure that she is behaving properly. She generally doesn't do this to be manipulative but, rather, because she has no other choice -- i.e., there is no strong "self" to guide her. 

And this is why a BPDer, in choosing a mate, will pick someone with a very strong stable personality who will provide the "self identity" she sorely needs. But, sadly, as soon as you do EXACTLY THAT, she will soon feel you are trying to control and dominate her.



> She is telling me that none of that was true, and that she has been acting the entire time.


Don't believe it. If she is a BPDer, she is so emotionally immature that she can only handle one intense feeling at a time. She accomplishes this by "splitting off" the conflicting feeling (e.g., love for you), putting it entirely out of reach of her conscious mind. In this way, BPDers and young children are able to avoid having to deal with strong conflicting feelings, ambiguities, uncertainties, and the other grey areas of interpersonal relationships. 

This is why BPDers and children rely so heavily on black-white thinking, wherein they categorize everyone as "all good" (white) and "all bad" (black). And they can recategorize someone, from one polar extreme to the other, in just ten seconds. Moreover, a BPDer will be very puzzled by your inability to do such rapid flips between Jekyll and Hyde. You therefore will be accused of "holding grudges" and your inability to "get over it." 



> She told me tonight that she sees herself as an object to be used for a man's pleasure and that is her only worth and that when we are having sex, she is just a sexual tool for me.


BPDers have such a fragile sense of self that, to the extent they have any persistent image at all, it is the false self image of being "The Victim," always "The Victim." Because a BPDer maintains a death grip on that false self image, she will tolerate your presence in the R/S only as long as you continue "validating" it.

There are only two roles for you to play that will provide that validation. One is to be "The Rescuer," as you were during the infatuation period and sporadically throughout the rest of the R/S. As long as you are trying to rescue her from unhappiness, the obvious implication is that she must be "The Victim" or you wouldn't be working so hard to save her. Of course, a BPDer doesn't really want to be rescued. Instead, she only seeks the validation. That's why every time you pull a BPDer from the raging seas, she will promptly jump back into the water as soon as your head is turned.

The other role for you to play is that of "The Perpetrator," i.e., the cause of all her unhappiness and every misfortune. As long as you continue to take the blame for everything, you will be providing the validation she sorely needs for her eternal "victim" status. The result, of course, is that a BPDer keeps a mental list of every mistake you've ever made (real or imagined). And she won't hesitate, when necessary, to pull out the ENTIRE list to defend her argument, no matter how small the issue.



> She said no, it wasn't about me. She said this is all about her past.


As @*ConanHub* said, "she opened up" to you there. Yet, if she is a BPDer, her momentary self awareness -- called a _"moment of clarity"_ -- is unlikely to last more than a few hours. Indeed, in this particular situation, it lasted far less time than that. As @*Grogmiester* observes, "_In the span of a couple of minutes you went from a normal caring conversation to "it's your fault." _

Significantly, no matter how clearly a BPDer sees herself during these rare moments, it is extremely unlikely it will have any effect on her views as soon as her mood changes. As with young children, a BPDer's perception of reality is based on the intense feelings she is experiencing at THIS VERY MOMENT.



> She said that she has been going to a counselor since she was a child, and she has NEVER talked about [her sexual abuse].


It is rare for a BPDer to have the self awareness and ego strength needed to work hard -- and to stay long enough -- in therapy to make a real difference. And, because a BPDer is so unstable that she cannot trust herself, she will have great difficulty in being able to trust the therapist.



> This makes me even more anxious about having sex with her because *now I know she actually doesn't like it.*


No, you don't know that. What is true for a BPDer at one moment in time is not necessarily true at other moments. Another way of saying this is that a BPDer is too immature to have developed a strong sense of "object constancy." Like a young child, a BPDer perceives of other people as being what she sees before her at this very moment. Hence, if you are arguing with her, she likely will split you black and perceive of you as a person who doesn't love you. This occurs because she is too immature to handle ambiguities, mixed feelings, and uncertainties in interpersonal relationships. 

I mention this object constancy because she will tend to perceive of herself in the very same way: her reality is what she is experiencing THIS VERY MOMENT. Hence, if she is not enjoying sex today, she may feel that she never really enjoyed it and had been pretending all along. 

Indeed, it is very common for a BPDer partner to tell you something and then completely deny it the next day -- and she will truthfully believe she had never said it. The abused partners of BPDers have seen this strange behavior so frequently that they have given it a name: "rewriting history." 



> She said that her traumatic childhood experiences have caused her to 'tune out' and not be present during sex. She says to survive the experience, she has to go someplace else mentally and 'play a part' while she is having sex so I will think she is enjoying it.


This "tuning out" is called "dissociation" and is one of the nine defining symptoms of BPD. Due to the trauma occurring in childhood, a BPDer has a lifetime of experiences in which she escapes the unpleasant moment by escaping -- through daydreams -- into the past or future. This is why, when BPDers are undergoing treatment (e.g., DBT or CBT), one of the first lessons will be "mindfullness" (how to remain in the present).



> I am not sure where to go from here


My advice, Breathe, is to see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your children are dealing with. I also suggest that, while you're looking for a good psych, you read about BPD warning signs so you know what to look for.

An easy place to start reading is my list of red flags at _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_. If most of those signs sound very familiar, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. Take care, Breathe.


----------



## breathedeep

farsidejunky said:


> She did open up to him. He deserves great credit for handling it the way he did.
> 
> But man...her push/pull is vicious and is indicative of a PD. Brother, you are really going to have to keep your knight in shining armor in check.


I will see flashes of love and affection, and empathy and sincerity from her, but they are gone as quickly as they came. I believe I have written here in another thread about the push/pull of being in a relationship with her. The constant roller-coaster, 'I hate you, I love you" is extremely exhausting. At least if she were all "I hate you", I could have something definitive to work with. The problem is that she will be loving and caring and sometimes the sweetest person in the world, and it draws me back in and I say to myself, "This isn't so bad. What was I thinking the other day?" Then the next thing I know, she perceived a 'tone' in my voice and she is telling me how much she hates life with me and that our marriage was a mistake.


----------



## breathedeep

Blossom Leigh said:


> OP... Remember me mentioning ACOA to you in your other thread? Your ACOA patterns play directly into her CSA patterns. You will need to educate yourself on both at the same time. I started a thread on it, and if you go there, you will already recognize patterns here.


I do remember, and hope to read more about ACOA as soon as I can. I am still working my way through all of the responses here, as well as reading books previously suggested, so I am a little backlogged, but I will get there.



> ACOA's choose partners who are emotionally unavailable. The "clueless" is probably unconscious denial that she is not fully available to you. You will have to focus on saving yourself as an ACOA and prayerfully by you choosing to save yourself, she will choose to save herself. If you choose to save her in a severely codependent way, you could fully lose yourself AND her.


You are correct. If I take a hard, deep look at myself, I know you are right. I am already beginning the feel as though I am losing myself along with my sanity.


----------



## breathedeep

Grogmiester said:


> I said before if she doesn't go to C your M is toast. After reading your last update I guess I'm a little more concerned. I think she's showing some personalty issues. Most D do 50/50 custody.
> 
> If she doesn't get C she'll have your son 50% with out you. Her condition won't get better over time, it will get worse. I think it's pretty bad now. You're in a tough position.


This is my second marriage and my son is from my previous marriage. She and I have no children together.


----------



## breathedeep

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> breathdeep - Here is my story - http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/204514-what-do-i-do-am-i-unreasonable.html
> 
> My wife threatened divorce if I would have brought it up in first go around. 26+ years later abuse was still an issue. I learned that you can't force someone to go to counseling, doesn't work too well.
> 
> Although, by finally getting to the point of telling her to talk to counselor or I walk, it did force her to make a decision.
> 
> Here is a link to a blog written by a woman that has expressed in some of her articles of how she used to feel like her husband was just using her, until she finally saw the light.
> 
> Unbearable Lessons - The Forgiven Wife
> 
> New to this blog? Start here. - The Forgiven Wife
> 
> I will try to find more specific links and post later. I have read a lot of the articles to get a better understanding of my wife. Your wife may identify with some of these articles.
> 
> Another thing that helped my wife was this book - Official Site for Shannon Ethridge Ministries The Sexually Confident Wife - Official Site for Shannon Ethridge Ministries


Thank you for the links. I will read through them and post back here once I have time to digest the information.


----------



## tech-novelist

Uptown said:


> My advice, Breathe, is to see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your children are dealing with. I also suggest that, while you're looking for a good psych, you read about BPD warning signs so you know what to look for.
> 
> An easy place to start reading is my list of red flags at _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_. If most of those signs sound very familiar, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. Take care, Breathe.


And in case this somehow wasn't said before, *don't tell her* that you think she is/has BPD!


----------



## breathedeep

Thor said:


> Your wife is going to have to confront her demons via qualified trauma therapy. You are not, and cannot be, her therapist. You can support her in going to therapy. Don't expect her to tell you much if anything about the abuse or what happens in therapy. Ideally you would be in MC with someone who coordinates or is aware of your wife's IC. Your wife's IC should be a different person than your MC. You might visit her IC once in a while but it would remain your wife's IC.


This is where I am stuck. She says she will absolutely not talk with a therapist about it. I believe it when she says she hasn't spoken with her current therapist about it because I've wondered the same thing, and she's given me little hints here and there that this topic has never been broached. She is already hesitant about going back to the counselor we have just started seeing, but I feel like it is a topic I need to bring up so that we can work through this. Should I wait until she brings it up when she feels ready? Should I bring up all of this with our current Marriage Counselor the next time I see him, even though she will see it as a betrayal of trust and will likely deny it and not go back again?



> The other thing you can and should do is set boundaries. You can't force her to have sex or to enjoy it. But you can require she work on being the healthiest and best partner she is capable of. So you should require she seek qualified trauma therapy as a condition of remaining married. Do this is a caring way. But realize that she has an obligation to either seek such therapy or to remove any expectation that you will remain with her. That is, healthy sex is a central purpose and central need in a marriage. Without it, you are just room mates. She has no right to expect you to live up to various obligations (financial, time, emotion) while she does not.


I definitely don't want to force her to have sex with me. If she doesn't want to be intimate with me, I couldn't muster half an erection to have sex with anyway. This is actually part of the problem now.



> But, she learned about sex in a terribly dysfunctional way. She also has learned some really dysfunctional attitudes and coping mechanisms as a result. Many times the abuse events are seemingly fairly minor, yet the long term psychological damage is huge. How her parents reacted, what the abuser said, and other such events may have affected her more than the actual abuse itself. She may have gone through a period of promiscuity as a teen, which is very common, and been used by a number of people. This causes further trauma.


She was sexually abused by her brother. She says she told her mother, but her mother did nothing. And you are right, she was very promiscuous as a teen, and her subsequent abuse came at the hands of her mothers boyfriends. She has carried great resentment for her mother for not protecting her as a child.


----------



## tech-novelist

breathedeep said:


> This is where I am stuck. She says she will absolutely not talk with a therapist about it. I believe it when she says she hasn't spoken with her current therapist about it because I've wondered the same thing, and she's given me little hints here and there that this topic has never been broached. She is already hesitant about going back to the counselor we have just started seeing, but I feel like it is a topic I need to bring up so that we can work through this. Should I wait until she brings it up when she feels ready? Should I bring up all of this with our current Marriage Counselor the next time I see him, even though she will see it as a betrayal of trust and will likely deny it and not go back again?


If you wait for her to be ready, you will be posting here again in 6 months or a year, telling us that you are still stuck.


----------



## breathedeep

lifeistooshort said:


> But he kind of is punishing her, even if it's not his intent.
> 
> What would we tell a woman who stopped sleeping with her hb after he confessed that he had to visualize porn stars to stay hard, and he was upset because he still wanted sex?
> 
> She'd be told that men feel close through sex snd no good can come from not having sex with him, and she has to help him reconnect.
> 
> I can understand that it's tough for him under the circumstances but what possible incentive could she possibly have to continue to communicate honestly with him if his response is to stop sex?
> 
> She didn't say she's in pain or that she doesn't want it, she says she dissociates.
> 
> Big difference.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's the thing. I didn't tell her I am will not have sex with her anymore. Actually I told her the opposite last night. But I am worried about her not enjoying it, wanting to be somewhere else, not wanting to be with me, feeling like I am using her as a sex object, etc...

The other part of the problem now is that she has become so unpredictable during and after sex that I am 'gun shy'. I am now worried what I am going to get - is she going to be happy with my performance, or is she going to perceive some wrongdoing during and start a huge argument afterwards? These are now regular occurrences and I'm sorry, but it makes performance anxiety a real issue.


----------



## tech-novelist

breathedeep said:


> That's the thing. I didn't tell her I am will not have sex with her anymore. Actually I told her the opposite last night. But I am worried about her not enjoying it, wanting to be somewhere else, not wanting to be with me, feeling like I am using her as a sex object, etc...
> 
> The other part of the problem now is that she has become so unpredictable during and after sex that I am 'gun shy'. I am now worried what I am going to get - is she going to be happy with my performance, or is she going to perceive some wrongdoing during and start a huge argument afterwards? These are now regular occurrences and I'm sorry, but it makes performance anxiety a real issue.


The first thing you have to do is to decide whether her problems are due to BPD. 

If they are, then you have to decide whether you can do anything about that. 

My guess is "no".


----------



## breathedeep

JohnA said:


> The next step, to often, is to rebel by using drugs or alcohol and multiple affairs. I've read repeatedly that the odds of finding a prositute or a porn star who not a CSA victim is as good as a buying a wining lottery ticket. This is how deep the problem is. It is also common for a CSA victim to become emotional frozen at the age the abuse occurred.


I don't think she will go the drug/alcohol route, but I can easily see her cheating on me. She already cheated on me before she and I got married, and she cheated on her previous husband while they were married.


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## breathedeep

ReturntoZero said:


> *Look at all that power she gives him.*
> 
> (A sure-fire sign of the disordered)


Would you mind elaborating?


----------



## breathedeep

Uptown said:


> Clearly, you are aware that these BPD traits have been occurring from the beginning. When *Technovelist* wrote _"I'm concerned about BPD"_ last November, you responded, _"Yes, I have made myself aware of BPD since she and I have been together. Also Narcissistic Personality Disorder. She exhibits traits of both."_ [Your 11/18/15 thread.]


She says her ex-husband was diagnosed with NPD by her current therapist when they were going to MC together. Now, I don't know him well-enough to say whether this is or is not true, but one thing I realized early on is that my wife exhibits many/most of the traits that she complains about in him. I started doing research on NPD to better understand what she was going through with him, and I noticed many of the traits on the list apply to her. This research led me to BPD, which is almost like reading a recipe for my wife's daily behavior.



> Likewise, my BPDer exW was sexually abused by her own father starting at about age 7 -- and she had been emotionally abused before that. A recent large-scale study found that 70% of BPDers report they had been abused or abandoned in childhood.


My wife's abuse started around this time as well, and continued into her early teenage years by different men in her life.



> As before, the BPDer will continue to crave intimacy like nearly every other adult. Yet, because her engulfment fear has now returned, she will be unable to tolerate intimacy for very long. The problem with intimacy is that, because she has such a fragile weak sense of self identity, she will quickly feel like she is losing her identity by merging into your strong personality. In this way, she may feel like her identity is evaporating into thin air -- a very scary feeling. She also will have a strong feeling that you somehow are "controlling" her.


She has expressed this to me many times. She has told me she tends to sabotage her relationships. She and I dated for several months until she broke up with me. I brought this up today in a conversation that was an extension to the one we had last night, and she said she broke up with me because I scared her. It wasn't 'scared' as in she feared for her life, she said it was because she was feeling too close to me, and she had never been with someone like me before (caring, loving, putting her first), and she didn't know how to deal with it, so she broke up with me.



> No, you cannot be her safe place. If she is a BPDer, you became unsafe the moment you drew close to her, at which point you started triggering her fears of abandonment and engulfment. If your objective had been for her to feel safe around you, then you should have remained being one of her casual friends, business associates, or a complete stranger. Generally, NONE of those people make her feel unsafe because they pose no threat to her fears of abandonment and engulfment. There is no close relationship to be abandoned and no intimacy to trigger the fear of engulfment.


This is all making much more sense now. Unfortunately, it is beginning to seem more and more hopeless.



> Hence, you will start triggering one fear (engulfment) when drawing closer to her and will start triggering the other fear (abandonment) as you move away. Moreover, there is no midpoint position (between "too far away" and "too close") where you can safely stand. That Goldilocks position simply doesn't exist. I know because I foolishly spent 15 years hunting for it.


She has described feeling this way as well.



> The push-away and pull-back cycle you are seeing is one of the hallmarks of a BPDer relationship. As I noted earlier, the push-away usually is accomplished by her starting a fight. Significantly, the very WORST fights typically will occur during or immediately after the very BEST of times -- e.g., right after sex or a great weekend, or during the middle of a great vacation.
> 
> The reason, of course, is that a BPDer cannot tolerate intimacy for very long without feeling suffocated and controlled. Because she experiences these feelings as accurate reflections of reality, she will be convinced -- at a conscious level -- that YOU are the cause.
> 
> Like I said, the worst fights will start at the very best of times.


Yes to this 1000 times. She used to tell me that she hated holidays with her ex because he would always find ways to ruin them. Interestingly, now that she and I are together, I notice she has a knack for starting an argument either just before or just after we go on a holiday we've been planning for a while. I wonder now if she is really describing herself when she talks to me about some of the things her ex husband used to do to her.

And you are exactly right; we can have a great weekend, then Sunday at 6:00pm, she will start an argument out of nowhere and we'll be fighting for the next two or three days (or more).



> And this is why a BPDer, in choosing a mate, will pick someone with a very strong stable personality who will provide the "self identity" she sorely needs. But, sadly, as soon as you do EXACTLY THAT, she will soon feel you are trying to control and dominate her.


I believe we are seeing some of this as I wrote about in my _Boundaries_ post.



> Don't believe it. If she is a BPDer, she is so emotionally immature that she can only handle one intense feeling at a time. She accomplishes this by "splitting off" the conflicting feeling (e.g., love for you), putting it entirely out of reach of her conscious mind. In this way, BPDers and young children are able to avoid having to deal with strong conflicting feelings, ambiguities, uncertainties, and the other grey areas of interpersonal relationships.
> 
> This is why BPDers and children rely so heavily on black-white thinking, wherein they categorize everyone as "all good" (white) and "all bad" (black). And they can recategorize someone, from one polar extreme to the other, in just ten seconds. Moreover, a BPDer will be very puzzled by your inability to do such rapid flips between Jekyll and Hyde. You therefore will be accused of "holding grudges" and your inability to "get over it."


She does this very often. It can be maddening at times. She tells me that I hold a grudge too long, or that I keep a list of her wrong-doings.

And the black and white thinking... she did this just today. We were out having a nice dinner with our family, and she was being sweet, caring, loving, affectionate. She whispered in my ear how much she loves our life together.

Then we come home, her daughter is throwing a tantrum and I am not helping her resolve the situation with her daughter (nevermind she has instructed me to leave the discipline to her when it comes to her bio kids) so my wife begins throwing a tantrum and screaming at me and her daughter, telling her daughter she is the worst child she has ever known, and telling me she F$cking hates her life.



> Indeed, it is very common for a BPDer partner to tell you something and then completely deny it the next day -- and she will truthfully believe she had never said it. The abused partners of BPDers have seen this strange behavior so frequently that they have given it a name: "rewriting history."


She loves to do this. It has gotten to the point where I am beginning to question my own sanity and my own recollection of events. I am also at the point in which I am having difficulty distinguishing whether I am in the right or in the wrong when she is telling me my behavior is out of line. This is one of the reasons I began posting here: all I was hearing was that the problems in our relationship were my fault, and I could not trust my own judgement anymore whether this was/is the case.

Thank you, Uptown. You have certainly helped me get a better understanding of what is going on, and I am sincerely grateful for you taking the time to do so.


----------



## Uptown

> It has gotten to the point where I am beginning to question my own sanity.


That is exactly how you should be feeling if you've been living with a BPDer for two years. Of the 157 disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual (DSM-5), BPD is the one _most notorious_ for making the abused partners feel like they may be going crazy. The result is that therapists usually see far more of those abused partners -- coming in to find out if they are losing their minds -- than they ever see of the BPDers themselves.



> She has been refusing to attend MC with me for over a year.


My experience is that MC is a total waste of time and money unless the BPDer has worked hard in therapy for years to learn how to manage her emotions. Although MCs usually are good at teaching basic communication skills, a BPDer's issue go far beyond a simple lack of those skills. 

She needs to learn the emotional skills she never had an opportunity to learn in childhood. These include, e.g., how to regulate her emotions, how to do self soothing, how to trust, how to avoid black-white thinking by tolerating ambiguities and uncertainties, how to be mindful by staying in the present instead of escaping into the past or future in daydreams, and how to intellectually challenge intense feelings instead of accepting them as self-evident truths.

As to the IC she's been seeing for many years, please keep in mind that HER therapist is NOT your friend. Whenever strong BPD traits are involved, your best chance of obtaining a candid professional opinion about your W's behavior is to see a psychologist who has never treated or seen your W. That way you are assured that the psych is ethically bound to protect only YOUR best interests, not hers. 

I mention this because it is well known both inside and outside the psychiatric community that therapists generally are loath to tell a high functioning BPDer (much less tell her husband) the name of her disorder. For several reasons, this information is routinely withheld to protect the disordered client, as I explain in my post at Loath to Diagnose. It therefore would be as foolish to rely on her _therapist_ for candid information during the marriage as it would be to rely on her _attorney_ for candid advice during the divorce.


----------



## JohnA

Hi @Uptown, good ton read your post again. For those who need info on how to proceed (in this case a CSA victim with BPD) you are a good send. 

BreatheDeep, you heard the expression women need to learn how to speak guy and men need to learn how to speak women ? You need to learn why how a BDP thinks and how they will act on it. 

Take what you know and use it to detach from taking it personally, and to counter her attempts to destroy your marriage. 

For example: first she tells you how she feels about sex with you. Then she gets angry when she offers it, gets angry when you decline. Do you she what she is doing? Her issues want you to reject her and do so in a way that makes her the victim. The first is to get you to leave the marriage because your the azzhat whonjust wants sex. The second because your the asdhat who [email protected] her even though he knows how it makes her feel. 

You have a third action. First reasure start like this: "you are amazing person who dispite your pain still believes in us and cares for me, our children and our marriage". Then go on: I want always to be intimate with you, both physically and emotionally. I turned you down not because I think less of you and what you shared with me, but how can I love someone and hurt them at the same time. Understand I will never want to be with you if it causes you to be used. I can't do that to someone I love, and I love you. What must you think of me if you think I would simply use you. Telling me your pain is causes me nothing but wonderment. I don't know how I earned your trust so much that you shared with me what has happened. Take my hand, please together we can create an amazing life."

Please note how I framed my answer. First I reassured her and told her I am staying. Note the opening sentence is what sales people call an assumed sales approach: you know she really wants to stay. I then took apart her attempt to use sex against you by framing it as you loving her enough to first think about if it would hurt her first. With people with her issues is the only time I would try this approach with.


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## ReturntoZero

breathedeep said:


> Would you mind elaborating?


If the responsibility for her being happy is on you, then everything is your fault. See how this works? Classic disordered thinking.


----------



## giddiot

breathedeep said:


> This is where I am stuck. She says she will absolutely not talk with a therapist about it. I believe it when she says she hasn't spoken with her current therapist about it because I've wondered the same thing, and she's given me little hints here and there that this topic has never been broached. She is already hesitant about going back to the counselor we have just started seeing, but I feel like it is a topic I need to bring up so that we can work through this. Should I wait until she brings it up when she feels ready? Should I bring up all of this with our current Marriage Counselor the next time I see him, even though she will see it as a betrayal of trust and will likely deny it and not go back again?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I definitely don't want to force her to have sex with me. If she doesn't want to be intimate with me, I couldn't muster half an erection to have sex with anyway. This is actually part of the problem now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She was sexually abused by her brother. She says she told her mother, but her mother did nothing. And you are right, she was very promiscuous as a teen, and her subsequent abuse came at the hands of her mothers boyfriends. She has carried great resentment for her mother for not protecting her as a child.



That's part of the big problem with BPD people, it is almost impossible to get them into therapy. 

Don't live your whole life with this, when your my age and have lost the ability for sex from illness you will be so resentful. It doesn't fully sink in that this person took that away from you until then. The finality of it is so difficult because right now your mind reasons there is always a chance so you block it out. She will not change for the better unfortunately.


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## breathedeep

Grogmiester said:


> Was the CSA ever addressed in the family? My XW told her mother when she was around 11 and the mother didn't believe her. I can't even imagine how much that compounded my XW issues. Did your W tell anyone? If your W abuse was swept under the rug then it compounds it more.


It was definitely swept under the rug by her family. When they all talk about her brother, it is as if nothing happened. One thing I find very odd is that when my wife talks to her brother on the phone, she ends the call with the typical, "Love you." I have asked her how she can say those words to someone that abused her. If it were me, I wouldn't even be talking to that person on the phone.



> Hopefully you can convince her to get C with someone who "specializes" in CSA. Tell her she deserves to be happy ,,,, not for me (meaning you) but herself at a minimum. If she can start there then there's a chance to save the M and have a healthy relationship.


I don't even know how to approach this subject at the moment. She said when her current therapist got near the subject of sex, my wife walked out and told her therapist to never speak of it again. I suppose I will have to find a way though.


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## breathedeep

phillybeffandswiss said:


> CSA is horrible and it lurks behind many marital issues. Here's my question, were you a virgin when you two were married?


No. I was not a virgin. She and I have only been married a few months now.

I am 37. She is 40. She has a son and daughter from a previous marriage. I have a son and daughter from a previous marriage.


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## tech-novelist

breathedeep said:


> No. I was not a virgin. She and I have only been married a few months now.
> 
> I am 37. She is 40. She has a son and daughter from a previous marriage. I have a son and daughter from a previous marriage.


A few months and you're already in this situation?

Get an annulment based on withheld critical information.


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## breathedeep

3leafclover said:


> This is some pretty seriously distorted thinking, the type which would affect way more than just this one issue and would make it impossible for your wife to be a good partner in marriage and to meet your needs longterm unless she's willing to work on correcting the distortion, probably with a good cognitive behavioral therapist.


This is her go-to statement quite often. If she is yelling at me, calling me names, and being generally uncivil I will ask her to calm down or I am going to need to remove myself from the situation until she can have a calm discussion with me. Most of the time, she will not calm down, so I will tell her I am leaving for 30 minutes and I will be back. She will block the door, tell me I am emotionally manipulating her, that I am giving her the silent treatment by leaving and not talking to her, and that I am punishing her for telling me her feelings.


----------



## jld

breathedeep said:


> This is her go-to statement quite often. If she is yelling at me, calling me names, and being generally uncivil I will ask her to calm down or I am going to need to remove myself from the situation until she can have a calm discussion with me. Most of the time, she will not calm down, so I will tell her I am leaving for 30 minutes and I will be back. She will block the door, tell me I am emotionally manipulating her, that I am giving her the silent treatment by leaving and not talking to her, and that I am punishing her for telling me her feelings.


So why do you leave?


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## tech-novelist

breathedeep said:


> This is her go-to statement quite often. If she is yelling at me, calling me names, and being generally uncivil I will ask her to calm down or I am going to need to remove myself from the situation until she can have a calm discussion with me. Most of the time, she will not calm down, so I will tell her I am leaving for 30 minutes and I will be back. She will block the door, tell me I am emotionally manipulating her, that I am giving her the silent treatment by leaving and not talking to her, and that I am punishing her for telling me her feelings.


While I'm not a psychologist, I would nominate your wife as the poster child for... BPD.


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## Blossom Leigh

breathedeep said:


> This is her go-to statement quite often. If she is yelling at me, calling me names, and being generally uncivil I will ask her to calm down or I am going to need to remove myself from the situation until she can have a calm discussion with me. Most of the time, she will not calm down, so I will tell her I am leaving for 30 minutes and I will be back. She will block the door, tell me I am emotionally manipulating her, that I am giving her the silent treatment by leaving and not talking to her, and that I am punishing her for telling me her feelings.


This is a good choice in boundaries. You remove yourself from her abuse while reassuring her you will return when she chooses not to be abusive. This is good. Don't let anyone here tell you otherwise.

Additionally, her blocking your ability to leave a room is skirting arrestable behavior. Has she ever hit you?


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## breathedeep

Latest episode - classic example of walking on eggshells and not knowing what is going to set her off and how things can turn on a dime:

Today is Valentine's day, so last night we went to a nice restaurant, I got her flowers this morning, breakfast, etc... everything seems to be good.

She is upstairs doing her thing for a minute and I am downstairs playing with the kids and the cat. I make this god-awful cat noise imitating how our cat sounds sometimes. We often make fun of our cat because of the wailing he does through the house. A few minutes later, she comes down the steps and says, "Were you making fun of me?" Not even connecting the two things together (me making the cat sound and her thinking I am making fun of her), I tell her I'm not following what she's saying. She says, "The noise you were making. Why were you making fun of me?" I told her I was not making fun of her and I'm not sure why she would immediately think I was making fun of her when I was playing with the cat like we always do. She said that was the only thing she could think of (that I was making fun of her) and that she didn't appreciate it.

Clearly the expression on my face told her I was puzzled and slightly annoyed, so she said, "What? Are you mad at me now?" I said, no I wasn't mad. She said, "What then? Annoyed?" Remembering what I read from my books recently, I decided to answer honestly and told her I was slightly annoyed that she would automatically think I was making fun of her, and then approach me in an accusatory way instead of calmly and in a non-accusatory way. She rolled her eyes and stomped off saying "GREAT! This is how I get to spend my valentines day!" She then went upstairs and locked herself in her room.

I felt like I was just involved in a hit and run (this is not a new feeling with her though), like WTF just happened??

Eggshells...


----------



## breathedeep

Blossom Leigh said:


> This is a good choice in boundaries. You remove yourself from her abuse while reassuring her you will return when she chooses not to be abusive. This is good. Don't let anyone here tell you otherwise.
> 
> Additionally, her blocking your ability to leave a room is skirting arrestable behavior. *Has she ever hit you?*


She has pushed me, but never hit me.

I have never laid a hand on her in anger.


----------



## jld

Are you considering divorce?

She needs strength from you. If you cannot provide it, divorce her. It will be better for both of you.


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## breathedeep

jld said:


> Are you considering divorce?
> 
> She needs strength from you. If you cannot provide it, divorce her. It will be better for both of you.


I am not even close to considering divorce at this time. I need to go through the counseling process for myself and with her in MC. As I've mentioned, I love my wife and want us to work out, and I have to do everything I can so that if our marriage doesn't work out, at least I know I tried.

I am trying to be as strong as I can. That's why I am here - to learn how to walk the fine line between being strong for her and being her doormat.


----------



## Uptown

breathedeep said:


> Today is Valentine's day.... She rolled her eyes and stomped off saying "GREAT! This is how I get to spend my valentines day!"


Yawn -- another holiday, another fight. This is the way it is with BPDers. As we discussed earlier, Breathe, the very worst fights typically start at the very best of times. As you said earlier (#137), _"I notice she has a knack for starting an argument either just before or just after we go on a holiday we've been planning for a while."_


----------



## jld

breathedeep said:


> I am not even close to considering divorce at this time. I need to go through the counseling process for myself and with her in MC. As I've mentioned, I love my wife and want us to work out, and I have to do everything I can so that if our marriage doesn't work out, at least I know I tried.
> 
> I am trying to be as strong as I can. That's why I am here - to learn how to walk the fine line between being strong for her and being her doormat.


Well, here is my advice: Start seeking to understand her. Learn to do Active Listening. Stop being afraid of her. That walking on eggshells is just fear.

Stop leaving the room. Do the active listening then instead. 

Right now she is insecure and does not trust you. Earn her trust by being strong enough to love her through her anger (hurt and fear).

Did you read my signature?


----------



## giddiot

jld said:


> Well, here is my advice: Start seeking to understand her. Learn to do Active Listening. Stop being afraid of her. That walking on eggshells is just fear.
> 
> 
> 
> Stop leaving the room. Do the active listening then instead.
> 
> 
> 
> Right now she is insecure and does not trust you. Earn her trust by being strong enough to love her through her anger (hurt and fear).
> 
> 
> 
> Did you read my signature?



You sure have a misunderstanding of BPD. He will never be able to make her feel secure. And understanding them is like Bizarro world in the Superman comic books. This is not fixable by any action he can take, she needs intensive therapy and even then it probably won't work.


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## jld

giddiot said:


> You sure have a misunderstanding of BPD. He will never be able to make her feel secure. And understanding them is like Bizarro world in the Superman comic books. This is not fixable by any action he can take, she needs intensive therapy and even then it probably won't work.


He is always free to divorce.


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## Blossom Leigh

giddiot said:


> You sure have a misunderstanding of BPD. He will never be able to make her feel secure. And understanding them is like Bizarro world in the Superman comic books. This is not fixable by any action he can take, she needs intensive therapy and even then it probably won't work.


Yes, if a reasonable level of calm and stability cannot be achieved and your home remains a battlefield, then the merciful thing is to go your separate ways. I would focus the significant portion of my time in educating myself on her CSA, Out of the FOG and your ACOA patterns as well as devote yourself to your own healing for at least six months. Then reconsider if this relationship is viable longterm. I would move ACOA to priority #1.


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## breathedeep

She and I talked about the incident this morning. During that talk, she asked me what I want out of her. I took this as an opportunity to tell her I needed her to get help for the subject she and I have been discussing the last few days - the sexual abuse, how it is affecting our marriage and sex life now, and how she feels about sex in general. She asked me why I was making this about her, and that she was tired of me projecting my problems on her and making this about her. She said this has never been an issue between us before, so why is it now. I told her I didn't know she had been faking and dissociating and 'playing a part' during sex until a few nights ago, and we are operating under a whole new paradigm now. She said she absolutely will not talk with anyone about what happened. I said, "You asked me what I need you to do, and that is my answer. I want you do get help for you and for us." She said she isn't going to do it, and if I am going to try to talk to our current marriage counselor about it, she will not go back. She then backtracked and said, "Actually, I am just not going back, and if those are your terms, then I will just end this marriage." She then called me a selfish a$*hole for making this about sex and wanting her to talk about this with a counselor.

She asked me why I am making this about sex. I told her that sex is a big part of a marriage, and we cannot have a healthy marriage without sex. She said that I could just continue having sex with her like I had been before she told me. I told her that it is difficult for me to have sex with her knowing that she doesn't want to, that it doesn't feel safe, and that she has to go someplace else in her mind when we are having sex. I asked her if I am just supposed to keep having sex with her knowing how she feels now, and she responded, "Yep, that is status quo for me so that's what has to happen" (meaning, I need to have sex with her knowing that she isn't into it and would rather be somewhere else).

She said that this is her problem, not mine. I told her that it was both of our problem and that I want us both to work through it. She continued to call me a selfish a-hole and that she will just refuse to talk to me about any of this anymore because I punish her when she tells me about how she feels.

She said once the kids are out of school in May, she is going to move out. I think she is just lashing out and don't believe she will, but I do believe her when she says she will not talk about this with a counselor and if I try to talk about it, she will not go.


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband

Send her the forgivenwife link I sent you. Ask her to read it.

I will be married 30 years in May, and I've put up with dealing with a wife that has abuse issues for a long time. Sorry to say, you can be the best, most supportive husband, the most awesome dad to your kids, it won't make any difference in your sex life. SHE needs to decide that SHE needs to address her issues.

Read the entire list of posts from my story. My wife said I made her feel safe, still didn't change the sex component of our marriage.

I really feel for you, I've been there. You love your wife, want to keep the family together.

Take all the different suggestions from TAM and figure out what YOU are OK with.

All of us are arm chair QB's, it's up to you to walk your own path.

ps- Shannon Etheridge has 4 day seminars for women, may be something to check into. Shannon comes from a background of abuse.


----------



## Marc878

You can't fix this. It will be a waste of time/life with probably only a small chance of success.

Better evaluate what you want and use your head not your heart.


----------



## lifeistooshort

breathedeep said:


> Latest episode - classic example of walking on eggshells and not knowing what is going to set her off and how things can turn on a dime:
> 
> Today is Valentine's day, so last night we went to a nice restaurant, I got her flowers this morning, breakfast, etc... everything seems to be good.
> 
> She is upstairs doing her thing for a minute and I am downstairs playing with the kids and the cat. I make this god-awful cat noise imitating how our cat sounds sometimes. We often make fun of our cat because of the wailing he does through the house. A few minutes later, she comes down the steps and says, "Were you making fun of me?" Not even connecting the two things together (me making the cat sound and her thinking I am making fun of her), I tell her I'm not following what she's saying. She says, "The noise you were making. Why were you making fun of me?" I told her I was not making fun of her and I'm not sure why she would immediately think I was making fun of her when I was playing with the cat like we always do. She said that was the only thing she could think of (that I was making fun of her) and that she didn't appreciate it.
> 
> Clearly the expression on my face told her I was puzzled and slightly annoyed, so she said, "What? Are you mad at me now?" I said, no I wasn't mad. She said, "What then? Annoyed?" Remembering what I read from my books recently, I decided to answer honestly and told her I was slightly annoyed that she would automatically think I was making fun of her, and then approach me in an accusatory way instead of calmly and in a non-accusatory way. She rolled her eyes and stomped off saying "GREAT! This is how I get to spend my valentines day!" She then went upstairs and locked herself in her room.
> 
> I felt like I was just involved in a hit and run (this is not a new feeling with her though), like WTF just happened??
> 
> Eggshells...


Why wasn't your first response that it was supposed to be the cat? Why drag it on with "why would you think that"?

You could've shut that one down immediately.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

She could be blustering. If she digs her heals in and you feel your boundaries are clear then you are faced with a choice, either accept her limited availability and subsequent abusive outbursts or remove yourself and your children from the chaos. Vet this through your therapy channels. Praying for the best.


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## Annie123

She's not going to do anything about it and she doesn't want you to do anything about it. She just wants you to keep putting up with anything she throws at you. 

I think you need to decide how much time you want to invest into trying to make things better and if by that time nothing has changed, you need to move on. Please don't waste your life trying to save someone who doesn't want to be saved and can't be saved.

Just don't forget that she obviously doesn't care about your feelings. Everything is about her only. You know that sex is not the only issue in your marriage so even if that gets fixed (not very likely), what about the rest?

In the meantime, read this, it might help:
https://humansystem.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/i-hate-you-dont-leave-me.pdf


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## giddiot

3leafclover said:


> I say take her for her word. Let her take responsibility for them and keep future discussions to ones about how to separate amicably. Otherwise, be pleasant but start to 180. If she gets upset, remind her that moving out is her desire, not yours. Your desire is for her to stay and seek real help for the issue. Let her know that you don't want her to go but that you respect her decision and support her moving out if she's really not willing to stay and work on this.
> 
> 
> 
> And maybe keep a VAR on hand in case things get ugly.



Get ugly? Sounds pretty ugly now to me.


----------



## jld

The only time I have heard the word "dissociating" used was in reference to multiple personality disorder. This is not what we are talking about here, right?


----------



## lifeistooshort

breathedeep said:


> Latest episode - classic example of walking on eggshells and not knowing what is going to set her off and how things can turn on a dime:
> 
> Today is Valentine's day, so last night we went to a nice restaurant, I got her flowers this morning, breakfast, etc... everything seems to be good.
> 
> She is upstairs doing her thing for a minute and I am downstairs playing with the kids and the cat. I make this god-awful cat noise imitating how our cat sounds sometimes. We often make fun of our cat because of the wailing he does through the house. A few minutes later, she comes down the steps and says, "Were you making fun of me?" Not even connecting the two things together (me making the cat sound and her thinking I am making fun of her), I tell her I'm not following what she's saying. She says, "The noise you were making. Why were you making fun of me?" I told her I was not making fun of her and I'm not sure why she would immediately think I was making fun of her when I was playing with the cat like we always do. She said that was the only thing she could think of (that I was making fun of her) and that she didn't appreciate it.
> 
> Clearly the expression on my face told her I was puzzled and slightly annoyed, so she said, "What? Are you mad at me now?" I said, no I wasn't mad. She said, "What then? Annoyed?" Remembering what I read from my books recently, I decided to answer honestly and told her I was slightly annoyed that she would automatically think I was making fun of her, and then approach me in an accusatory way instead of calmly and in a non-accusatory way. She rolled her eyes and stomped off saying "GREAT! This is how I get to spend my valentines day!" She then went upstairs and locked herself in her room.
> 
> I felt like I was just involved in a hit and run (this is not a new feeling with her though), like WTF just happened??
> 
> Eggshells...


Why wasn't your first response that it was supposed to be the cat? Why drag it on with "why would you think that"?

You could've shut that one down immediately.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marc878

lifeistooshort said:


> Why wasn't your first response that it was supposed to be the cat? Why drag it on with "why would you think that"?
> 
> You could've shut that one down immediately.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just excusing the obvious.


----------



## MattMatt

jld said:


> The only time I have heard the word "dissociating" used was in reference to multiple personality disorder. This is not what we are talking about here, right?


Yep! This is *exactly* what we are talking about, here.

How children cope with the pain of sexual assault


----------



## jld

Marc878 said:


> Just excusing the obvious.


How so?


----------



## jld

MattMatt said:


> Yep! This is *exactly* what we are talking about, here.
> 
> How children cope with the pain of sexual assault


That is so sad, Matt.


----------



## Annie123

lifeistooshort said:


> Why wasn't your first response that it was supposed to be the cat? Why drag it on with "why would you think that"?
> 
> You could've shut that one down immediately.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I tried both approaches with my husband. The problem is, if his mind was at that point set on being angry, whatever I said didn't make a difference. He would still blow up so it's always a lose-lose situation anyway. 

I don't know if that's the case with OP but it certainly is one part of the whole walking on the eggshells situation.

You can'r reason with someone that can't be reasoned with. Even removing yourself from an explosive situation doesn't always help; many times I'd leave and tell him I'd return once he's calmed down and then we could talk but even hours later, when I returned, he'd keep lecturing and insulting me, sometimes for hours. 

I think the only permanent and true solution for this is leaving for good.


----------



## Marc878

jld said:


> Are you considering divorce?
> 
> She needs strength from you. If you cannot provide it, divorce her. It will be better for both of you.


Guilt tripping in this case (he needs to be strong to deal with HER insanity) is absurd. He didn't make this problem and he nor anyone else is going to be able to fix it.


----------



## Marc878

jld said:


> How so?


His obvious not understanding what she was talking about has nothing to do with the issue. She has mental issues and trying to walk around them or handle them in any rational way would be a never ending struggle.


----------



## jld

Marc878 said:


> Guilt tripping in this case (he needs to be strong to deal with HER insanity) is absurd. He didn't make this proble and he nor anyone else is going to be able to fix it.


She has a serious problem. She is not going to be able to give to him.


----------



## jld

Annie123 said:


> I tried both approaches with my husband. The problem is, if his mind was at that point set on being angry, whatever I said didn't make a difference. He would still blow up so it's always a lose-lose situation anyway.
> 
> I don't know if that's the case with OP but it certainly is one part of the whole walking on the eggshells situation.
> 
> You can'r reason with someone that can't be reasoned with. Even removing yourself from an explosive situation doesn't always help; many times I'd leave and tell him I'd return once he's calmed down and then we could talk but even hours later, when I returned, he'd keep lecturing and insulting me, sometimes for hours.
> 
> I think the only permanent and true solution for this is leaving for good.


I think leaving or going all in are the only choices.


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## MattMatt

jld said:


> That is so sad, Matt.


It is.

Unfortunately this happens with my wife.

She will sometimes freak out during sex. Then it is as if she goes away somewhere, mentally.


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## lifeistooshort

Annie123 said:


> I tried both approaches with my husband. The problem is, if his mind was at that point set on being angry, whatever I said didn't make a difference. He would still blow up so it's always a lose-lose situation anyway.
> 
> I don't know if that's the case with OP but it certainly is one part of the whole walking on the eggshells situation.
> 
> You can'r reason with someone that can't be reasoned with. Even removing yourself from an explosive situation doesn't always help; many times I'd leave and tell him I'd return once he's calmed down and then we could talk but even hours later, when I returned, he'd keep lecturing and insulting me, sometimes for hours.
> 
> I think the only permanent and true solution for this is leaving for good.


That may be and it's certainly possible that there is no solution other than leaving, but i still think a direct answer is better. Otherwise you start playing games with them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

MattMatt said:


> It is.
> 
> Unfortunately this happens with my wife.
> 
> She will sometimes freak out during sex. Then it is as if she goes away somewhere, mentally.


I am so sorry, Matt.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Are you considering divorce?
> 
> She needs strength from you. If you cannot provide it, divorce her. It will be better for both of you.


No, JLD. 

Not this one. 

It is not about being strong enough. Sorry, but this is textbook. 

BreatheDeep, this is the thinking that will make you miserable for this girl. You can be string enough for someone normal to mildly disordered. 

Sorry, brother. If I were in your shoes I would leave her behind and never look back.

You are in for a world of hurt if you don't. A world of hurt.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## phillybeffandswiss

breathedeep said:


> She and I talked about the incident this morning. During that talk, she asked me what I want out of her. I took this as an opportunity to tell her I needed her to get help for the subject she and I have been discussing the last few days - the sexual abuse, how it is affecting our marriage and sex life now, and how she feels about sex in general. She asked me why I was making this about her, and that she was tired of me projecting my problems on her and making this about her. She said this has never been an issue between us before, so why is it now. I told her I didn't know she had been faking and dissociating and 'playing a part' during sex until a few nights ago, and we are operating under a whole new paradigm now. She said she absolutely will not talk with anyone about what happened. I said, "You asked me what I need you to do, and that is my answer. I want you do get help for you and for us." She said she isn't going to do it, and if I am going to try to talk to our current marriage counselor about it, she will not go back. She then backtracked and said, "Actually, I am just not going back, and if those are your terms, then I will just end this marriage." She then called me a selfish a$*hole for making this about sex and wanting her to talk about this with a counselor.
> 
> She asked me why I am making this about sex. I told her that sex is a big part of a marriage, and we cannot have a healthy marriage without sex. She said that I could just continue having sex with her like I had been before she told me. I told her that it is difficult for me to have sex with her knowing that she doesn't want to, that it doesn't feel safe, and that she has to go someplace else in her mind when we are having sex. I asked her if I am just supposed to keep having sex with her knowing how she feels now, and she responded, "Yep, that is status quo for me so that's what has to happen" (meaning, I need to have sex with her knowing that she isn't into it and would rather be somewhere else).
> 
> She said that this is her problem, not mine. I told her that it was both of our problem and that I want us both to work through it. She continued to call me a selfish a-hole and that she will just refuse to talk to me about any of this anymore because I punish her when she tells me about how she feels.
> 
> She said once the kids are out of school in May, she is going to move out. I think she is just lashing out and don't believe she will, but I do believe her when she says she will not talk about this with a counselor and if I try to talk about it, she will not go.


Yep, this response is EXACTLY what I expected.
Now, she is being totally honest. She isn't lashing out, she got tired of being passive aggressive. Oh and I disagree 100% with you doing any type of punishing because of the way you feel right now.


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> No, JLD.
> 
> Not this one.
> 
> It is not about being strong enough. Sorry, but this is textbook.
> 
> BreatheDeep, this is the thinking that will make you miserable for this girl. You can be string enough for someone normal to mildly disordered.
> 
> Sorry, brother. If I were in your shoes I would leave her behind and never look back.
> 
> You are in for a world of hurt if you don't. A world of hurt.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


This man is doing it, far:

https://samruck2.wordpress.com/

It does not mean breathedeep needs to, or even can. But strength is _exactly_ what a husband who is going to stay with someone with this kind of very serious problem needs.


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## jld

From Sam Ruck's site:


_As my girls and I have traveled together these last 5 years, seeking their healing from dissociative identity disorder, I found myself unknowingly validating the tenets of attachment theory. John Bowlby began to formulate this theory of “the dynamics of long-term relationships between humans” after WWII, and it seems to have become the predominate view of our time.

*Attachment theory recognizes that 4 basic attachment patterns arise in children up to age 18 months based upon the primary caregiver’s behavior. A securely attached child’s caregiver responds appropriately, promptly and consistently to the child’s needs and cries for help. An avoidant pattern arises from a caregiver who gives little or no response to the child’s needs and cries for help, discouraging crying and pushing independence. The ambivalent/resistant pattern comes from a caregiver who is inconsistent in his/her responses to the child, swinging from appropriate to neglectful. And the disorganized child often is subjected to an abusive caregiver who frightens the child or is frightened herself.* (Wikipedia)

As my girls and I have traveled this road, I began this journey as an attachment figure who was inconsistent. To the little girls I was always appropriate, but I spewed a lot of anger toward Karen because of the neglect I had received as a husband for 20 years. My issues caused wild swings in me from loving to pouting to angry. As a result I caused the girls to be ambivalent, especially Alley who was trying to defend everyone.

*But once I dealt with my issues and grasped the larger picture of how my actions would either speed or hinder my wife’s healing, (and thus affect my own happiness), I became a solid caregiver. And as I learned to respond appropriately, promptly, and consistently to everyone including Karen, it freed all the girls to become securely attached to me. They no longer had to guess what kind of a mood I would be in from moment to moment. And that is when their healing began in earnest. My consistent actions now gave them the freedom to focus on healing as I gave them a secure base from which to do so*._


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## jld

Breathedeep, just wanted to share something else from that site. I think it supports my advice to you to not leave the room, but to seek to understand and to be supportive of your wife when she is struggling:

_Bowlby, the father of attachment theory, understood that no matter how old we are, we function best IF we know someone will rescue us should we need it. Is that not what he says? Here it is again: We are at our best IF “there are one or more trusted persons who will come to their aid should difficulties arise.” But the problem is many therapists don’t really believe it. They are still holding on to our western myth of independence._


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## lifeistooshort

I think dealing with csa is much like dealing with weight problems in that you deal with it when you're ready, and if you feel like you're forced into it you resent it. 

Some people never deal with it.

It is tough for a spouse to deal with, much like spousal weight problems. 

It may be that you decide you don't want to stick around hoping for something that doesn't come to pass and I get that. Is it possible though for you to give it a little time to see if she comes around? 

The cat is now out of the bag and she felt comfortable enough to tell you. Her reward for it is deal with it or I'm done. 

What if you let it go and gave yourself a set period of time....say 6-8 months, to see if she comes around? In my view her telling you is a sign that she might become ready to face it or that she's even started to, and if you drop it and she does nothing you'll have you answer. You've now made clear what you need, and it's possible she needs a little time to process and feel like she has some control over her recovery. 

I know that I faced it was i was ready.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## breathedeep

More discussion today. I'll keep this short as I'm sure everyone is tired of seeing the continual play-by-play of our discussions.

She said she had not told me about any of this until after she and I got married because she was afraid I would leave her.

She told me that she actually has been trying to push me away, and the feeling has gotten much stronger since she and I got married. She said she cannot handle being close to someone. That it makes her scared and uncomfortable.

She started telling me how she was not going to change for me, and that she wasn't going to be this person I could mold into who I wanted. She said I would be better off finding someone else than trying to change her. She said she is tired of pretending and keeping up the facade. She then walked over to me and handed me her wedding ring and told me to go find someone else to mold into the person I want.


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## phillybeffandswiss

She hinted at it throughout your version of the conversations. You were so hurt you didn't see this reaction coming. She actually warned you about this in your first few exchanges.

I disagree with LitS's take on some things in this thread, but we do agree about CSA survivors dealing with the problems when they are ready. It is your choice whether you wait around or not. You are in a no win scenario if you ask for advice. Some will call you weak for leaving, others will call you weak for staying. Here's the one thing you have to realize you cannot force, cajole, manipulate or coerce someone to change when they do not really want to.


----------



## tech-novelist

breathedeep said:


> More discussion today. I'll keep this short as I'm sure everyone is tired of seeing the continual play-by-play of our discussions.
> 
> She said she had not told me about any of this until after she and I got married because she was afraid I would leave her.
> 
> She told me that she actually has been trying to push me away, and the feeling has gotten much stronger since she and I got married. She said she cannot handle being close to someone. That it makes her scared and uncomfortable.
> 
> She started telling me how she was not going to change for me, and that she wasn't going to be this person I could mold into who I wanted. She said I would be better off finding someone else than trying to change her. She said she is tired of pretending and keeping up the facade. She then walked over to me and handed me her wedding ring and told me to go find someone else to mold into the person I want.


Perfect BPD behavior. You can't fix this.

There is good news, though. She is telling you what you need to do and you should take her advice.

Well, the part about finding someone else, anyway; I don't think the molding part is a good idea, but I'm not worried about your doing that.


----------



## breathedeep

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I disagree with LitS's take on some things in this thread, but we do agree about CSA survivors dealing with the problems when they are ready. It is your choice whether you wait around or not. *You are in a no win scenario if you ask for advice. Some will call you weak for leaving, others will call you weak for staying. Here's the one thing you have to realize you cannot force, cajole, manipulate or coerce someone to change when they do not really wan to.*


I have come to this realization now. I can either stay and hope she deals with the problem eventually, and in her time, or I can leave. As you said, its really a no-win situation.


----------



## Marc878

breathedeep said:


> More discussion today. I'll keep this short as I'm sure everyone is tired of seeing the continual play-by-play of our discussions.
> 
> She said she had not told me about any of this until after she and I got married because she was afraid I would leave her.
> 
> She told me that she actually has been trying to push me away, and the feeling has gotten much stronger since she and I got married. She said she cannot handle being close to someone. That it makes her scared and uncomfortable.
> 
> She started telling me how she was not going to change for me, and that she wasn't going to be this person I could mold into who I wanted. She said I would be better off finding someone else than trying to change her. She said she is tired of pretending and keeping up the facade. She then walked over to me and handed me her wedding ring and told me to go find someone else to mold into the person I want.


How convenient to keep it hidden until after the marriage.

If I were you and planned to stay in this at least take some responsibility for your children. I hope you're going to make plans to keep them away from this. Maybe give your exW full custody, etc.

It would be harmful for them to see you relegated to servant status around your new wife.


----------



## farsidejunky

breathedeep said:


> More discussion today. I'll keep this short as I'm sure everyone is tired of seeing the continual play-by-play of our discussions.
> 
> She said she had not told me about any of this until after she and I got married because she was afraid I would leave her.
> 
> She told me that she actually has been trying to push me away, and the feeling has gotten much stronger since she and I got married. She said she cannot handle being close to someone. That it makes her scared and uncomfortable.
> 
> She started telling me how she was not going to change for me, and that she wasn't going to be this person I could mold into who I wanted. She said I would be better off finding someone else than trying to change her. She said she is tired of pretending and keeping up the facade. She then walked over to me and handed me her wedding ring and told me to go find someone else to mold into the person I want.


God bless her for her transparency.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Marc878

Truly sorry you are here.

Best of luck


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## breathedeep

Marc878 said:


> Truly sorry you are here.
> 
> Best of luck


Thanks. I appreciate everyone's support. It has been a great help to me.

She just asked me if I am cheating on her. Keep in mind, I haven't been with anyone else since she and I have been together. My phone is never locked and I do not keep it attached to my hip at all times. She has all of my passwords and access to my computer, email, etc... 

Yet she has a fingerprint lock and passcode on her phone, asks waitresses if we can have 'that cute waiter over there instead...', is very secretive about where she is, her passwords on her computer...

Earlier today she told me she would never be able to trust anyone fully. I see she meant that.


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## Marc878

Ugh!!!! Damn


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## phillybeffandswiss

Look, I am not saying she is a bad person. I don't agree with those saying she did this to you on purpose. Still, it is quite alright to want sex. No, you are not being weak or a jerk for wanting sex. Marriage counseling is a waste of your money and time right now.

I hope you can get some help, try an Individual counselor who specializes in spouses of CSA and/or rape survivors. There are small groups that deal with this unique perspective. You need to talk with people who understand how it is to be the other half. Yes, I think this will help you more than CSA survivors and those looking at it from a black and white scenario. While my situation is not as bad, I know how you feel. Trust me, your feelings are legit and you are not punishing her. Go get help and do not go down that false guilt road.


----------



## farsidejunky

breathedeep said:


> Thanks. I appreciate everyone's support. It has been a great help to me.
> 
> She just asked me if I am cheating on her. Keep in mind, I haven't been with anyone else since she and I have been together. My phone is never locked and I do not keep it attached to my hip at all times. She has all of my passwords and access to my computer, email, etc...
> 
> Yet she has a fingerprint lock and passcode on her phone, asks waitresses if we can have 'that cute waiter over there instead...', is very secretive about where she is, her passwords on her computer...
> 
> Earlier today she told me she would never be able to trust anyone fully. I see she meant that.


Let her go, brother.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## bandit.45

:crazy:


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## bandit.45

She basically tells you to go away and find someone else. Then later asks if you are cheating. Borderline Personality Disorder. She's a black and white thinker. 

I feel bad for her. But I feel worse for you. I think you should take her up on her offer.


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## lifeistooshort

breathedeep said:


> Thanks. I appreciate everyone's support. It has been a great help to me.
> 
> She just asked me if I am cheating on her. Keep in mind, I haven't been with anyone else since she and I have been together. My phone is never locked and I do not keep it attached to my hip at all times. She has all of my passwords and access to my computer, email, etc...
> 
> Yet she has a fingerprint lock and passcode on her phone, asks waitresses if we can have 'that cute waiter over there instead...', is very secretive about where she is, her passwords on her computer...
> 
> Earlier today she told me she would never be able to trust anyone fully. I see she meant that.


I have trouble fully trusting people....it's the real damage that my CSA did to me. If you've haven't been through it you don't understand.

But I don't think my hb is cheating, I can at least trust that much. But there are other things I have trouble with.....like I have trouble approaching him with things that bother me because I have trouble with the vulnerability. Especially since the last time I tried his response was really sh!tty.

And I can tell you that if were to cheat there's no way I could get past it.....the trust would be wrecked and I wouldn't view him the same again.

This is her battle to fight when she's ready. Whether you want to stick around to see if it happens is up to you.


----------



## Evinrude58

I don't believe your wife.

I think she is just a plain old unfaithful wife and lying about pretty much everything. I think it's quite obvious you will have to try pretty hard to find a worse spouse than her.

There's no way you should stay with someone mind-f'ing you like this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alphaomega

jld said:


> Well, here is my advice: Start seeking to understand her. Learn to do Active Listening. Stop being afraid of her. That walking on eggshells is just fear.
> 
> Stop leaving the room. Do the active listening then instead.
> 
> Right now she is insecure and does not trust you. Earn her trust by being strong enough to love her through her anger (hurt and fear).
> 
> Did you read my signature?


I'm not sure you can even to begin to understand crazy. Attempting to do so would be a fools errand. .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alphaomega

OP. That's not a "small" bomb. Your wife hit you with a 5000 megaton nuke, bud.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AliceA

breathedeep said:


> Thanks. I appreciate everyone's support. It has been a great help to me.
> 
> She just asked me if I am cheating on her. Keep in mind, I haven't been with anyone else since she and I have been together. My phone is never locked and I do not keep it attached to my hip at all times. She has all of my passwords and access to my computer, email, etc...
> 
> Yet she has a fingerprint lock and passcode on her phone, asks waitresses if we can have 'that cute waiter over there instead...', is very secretive about where she is, her passwords on her computer...
> 
> Earlier today she told me she would never be able to trust anyone fully. I see she meant that.


Didn't she cheat on you in the past? Maybe she's the one cheating and this is her way of deflecting attention from her.


----------



## alphaomega

breathedeep said:


> Thanks. I appreciate everyone's support. It has been a great help to me.
> 
> She just asked me if I am cheating on her. Keep in mind, I haven't been with anyone else since she and I have been together. My phone is never locked and I do not keep it attached to my hip at all times. She has all of my passwords and access to my computer, email, etc...
> 
> Yet she has a fingerprint lock and passcode on her phone, asks waitresses if we can have 'that cute waiter over there instead...', is very secretive about where she is, her passwords on her computer...
> 
> Earlier today she told me she would never be able to trust anyone fully. I see she meant that.


Oh oh. Major red flag right here. 

How long are you going to keep dancing to the "pick me!!!" Song she's making you sing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Annie123

What I wonder here is... let's say she agrees to open up to a therapist about the CSA, let's say she gets all the help she needs in that area and she heals and learns to deal with it and live with it without it affecting her in the same way/degree that it does now... 
Does anyone know/is there a way to predict if that will also decrease all of her strong BPD traits? Will it make it easier to live with her? Be around her? Will it stop you from having to walk on the eggshells all the time?

If someone finds an article about this, pls link it. This is what I found


> Studies have demonstrated that people diagnosed with BPD have a high prevalence of childhood sexual abuse. In addition, childhood sexual abuse is associated with attachment avoidance. Some estimate a 75 percent rate of childhood sexual abuse in BPD patients. Furthermore, childhood sexual abuse was found to distinguish BPD patients from depressed, non-BPD adolescents.
> Due to these factors, researchers believe that childhood sexual abuse may be an etiological factor for the development of borderline personality. In some studies, sexual abuse predicted BPD symptoms better than family environment, although instability in the family environment was a partial mediator.
> Childhood sexual abuse is not the only form of maltreatment that has been linked with BPD. Physical abuse, emotional abuse and neglect are all associated with the development of the disorder. In some studies, the rates of maltreatment were as high as 90 percent in BPD patients.


It doesn't say though if dealing with those childhood issues help decrease the BPD traits and behaviors.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

breathedeep said:


> She just asked me if I am cheating on her. Keep in mind, I haven't been with anyone else since she and I have been together. My phone is never locked and I do not keep it attached to my hip at all times. She has all of my passwords and access to my computer, email, etc...
> 
> Yet she has a fingerprint lock and passcode on her phone, asks waitresses if we can have 'that cute waiter over there instead...', is very secretive about where she is, her passwords on her computer...
> 
> Earlier today she told me she would never be able to trust anyone fully. I see she meant that.


Hmmm Major security issues.

that whole he must communicate his feelings but I am private and mysterious, is a power for security deal for women.

The programming is to find someone who will give them and offspring support, and that such support is enough and reliable. If there is doubt, or she is unsure, it will be reflected in security issues (seeking control & reassurance). This will be one of her 5 primary relationship needs. Sadly often if this has zero interest for her, it's because she really doesn't need (or want) a partner, but rather a playtoy or entertainment.
The secrecy is further on the security issue, and again is a control behavior. What she does and you don't, puts her in the stronger position, and thus you are less likely to challenge or question what is going on.

You are hearing "Are you having an affair".
This is not what she is asking you !!
You need to work out what you're actually being asked, before you can work out what the correct action is - the fact that she has her own trust issues means she is actually _unable_ to ask you directly what she needs to hear/see you do !!!!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Annie123 said:


> What I wonder here is... let's say she agrees to open up to a therapist about the CSA, let's say she gets all the help she needs in that area and she heals and learns to deal with it and live with it without it affecting her in the same way/degree that it does now...
> Does anyone know/is there a way to predict if that will also decrease all of her strong BPD traits? Will it make it easier to live with her? Be around her? Will it stop you from having to walk on the eggshells all the time?
> 
> If someone finds an article about this, pls link it. This is what I found
> 
> It doesn't say though if dealing with those childhood issues help decrease the BPD traits and behaviors.


I think in some cases, yes and some cases no. Much would depend on capacity and willingness of the bpd'er, personalities, quality of support & therapy.

I have Complex PTSD, which sounds eerily similar to BPD, and my issues have drastically improved over the past ten years. I had capacity and willingness and have worked hard at it.

The whole time I've been reading this thread I've been thinking, this just sounds like CPTSD and have wondered where the differences are, if any.


----------



## Sun Catcher

You have said time and again in this thread that you love her and don't want a divorce. Can you please explain what it is you love about this woman who is:

A serial adulteress
A lousy mother
An emotionally abusive spouse
Is not present when you have sex, actually loathes the idea
Is not present for you in any emotional or loving context
Has you walking on eggshells
Does not want help
Etc, etc, etc.....

What is there to love in this woman? I am beginning to think that you yourself have some psychological problem that you need to look in to. She isn't the only one that has problems. It just doesn't make sense you would want to stay with her "save her" and subject your bio children to this kind of upbringing.

I hope your children aren't living with you and I suggest you don't bring them to the house on your visiting days. Not fair to the children to subject them to this circus you are living in, it could affect them negatively for the rest of their lives. You are not a good role model for them. 

Sorry to be so harsh, but all I see here is everyone *****footing around the real problem of your unwillingness to deal with this very real, unsustainable problem.


----------



## jld

alphaomega said:


> I'm not sure you can even to begin to understand crazy. Attempting to do so would be a fools errand. .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Did you read MattMatt's post about the dissociating? Did you read the link I provided to Sam Ruck's blog about his wife doing the same thing?

This woman is suffering greatly. Dissociating, from what I have read, is a sign of serious trauma. It takes a great degree of love and trust building to overcome that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## breathedeep

breeze said:


> Didn't she cheat on you in the past? Maybe she's the one cheating and this is her way of deflecting attention from her.


Yes with her exH, and while she was pregnant with my baby.


----------



## breathedeep

Blossom Leigh said:


> I think in some cases, yes and some cases no. Much would depend on capacity and willingness of the bpd'er, personalities, quality of support & therapy.
> 
> I have Complex PTSD, which sounds eerily similar to BPD, and my issues have drastically improved over the past ten years. I had capacity and willingness and have worked hard at it.
> 
> The whole time I've been reading this thread I've been thinking, this just sounds like CPTSD and have wondered where the differences are, if any.


My wife says she has PTSD. She says it was diagnosed in her counseling sessions. Now is it really PTSD or BPD, I am obviously not qualified to diagnose either way.


----------



## turnera

breathedeep said:


> You are right. Something has changed. It was almost like a light switch. I am hoping we can get to the bottom of it in our marriage counseling.


What changed is that you are the first person in her life she has ever 'told the secret' to; and I'm talking about not just that she was abused, but about how she's adapted to deal with it, like the faking. People often just have no idea how horribly sexual abuse scars female children. 

I know several people who truly ARE paralyzed at even the thought of 'telling the secret' out loud. You just can't imagine how horribly it intertwines into her very being, the amount of Toxic Shame she carries around every single day. It's truly crippling.

The fact that she admitted to you the rest of this stuff is a testament to how much she wants this marriage to work. So go with that. Try to put sex on the back burner for now, as long as she is going to therapy. And discuss HOW she's going to address the abuse - in her personal therapy (you'd need to insist that you get to go to one session so you can bring it up, since you can't trust her to) or in your marriage counseling.

Of course, if you do hope to stay together, you have to put some rules in place. Like passwords on the phone? No. Hell no. Like, 'this is my #1 need right now: either you take off the password on your phone and let me see it, or I can't stay married to you.'


----------



## breathedeep

Sun Catcher said:


> You have said time and again in this thread that you love her and don't want a divorce. Can you please explain what it is you love about this woman who is:
> 
> A serial adulteress
> A lousy mother
> An emotionally abusive spouse
> Is not present when you have sex, actually loathes the idea
> Is not present for you in any emotional or loving context
> Has you walking on eggshells
> Does not want help
> Etc, etc, etc.....


All of this is true. Then there is the flip side, when she is the other person, the person I fell in love with before we got married:

She has a quick wit and amazing mind for business/strategy.
She and I share many common interests that are rare in other women.
In social situations, she's great.
The sex we had was phenomenal (although I now know that wasn't/isn't true).



> What is there to love in this woman? * I am beginning to think that you yourself have some psychological problem that you need to look in to*. She isn't the only one that has problems. It just doesn't make sense you would want to stay with her "save her" and subject your bio children to this kind of upbringing.


I know that I have issues that stem from my childhood, and plan on getting help for those. I know she isn't the only one with problems. From my time here, I know I have problems setting healthy boundaries, codependency issues, as well as many more several here could tell me about just by reading my posts.

This is partially why I want to be empathetic and compassionate with her; I am not perfect and certainly have my issues and I want someone to understand and love me for me.



> I hope your children aren't living with you and I suggest you don't bring them to the house on your visiting days. Not fair to the children to subject them to this circus you are living in, it could affect them negatively for the rest of their lives. You are not a good role model for them.


My children live with me 50% of the time. If I were to divorce my wife, get help for my issues, would your advice here change?



> Sorry to be so harsh, but all I see here is everyone *****footing around the real problem of your unwillingness to deal with this very real, unsustainable problem.


No worries about being harsh. I am here for the truth so I can find an appropriate way forward.


----------



## breathedeep

I need a plan of action now. I do not want to just continue complaining and doing nothing. I am ready to move forward. Here's where I am:

Continue to be compassionate to her feelings and past experience.
She and I continue MC.
I will get IC to deal with my issues, and to help navigate through the next stage in this process.
Put sex on the back burner for a while.
Have her remove the passcode from her phone.
Attend one or two of her IC sessions.
Have her bring up this topic in our MC, when she is ready. (Do I set a timeline for this?)

What am I missing from the action list? Is it appropriate to set up a timeline for the entire process. For example, for me to say I need to see significant progress by February 2017 or I will have to leave the marriage?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

breathedeep said:


> My wife says she has PTSD. She says it was diagnosed in her counseling sessions. Now is it really PTSD or BPD, I am obviously not qualified to diagnose either way.


Complex PTSD is a flavor of PTSD. There is a book in my signature link about it. It may be that BPD is a severe form of CPTSD, which I'm sure has a continuum.


----------



## Sun Catcher

breathedeep said:


> I know that I have issues that stem from my childhood, and plan on getting help for those. I know she isn't the only one with problems. From my time here, I know I have problems setting healthy boundaries, codependency issues, as well as many more several here could tell me about just by reading my posts.
> 
> This is partially why I want to be empathetic and compassionate with her; I am not perfect and certainly have my issues and I want someone to understand and love me for me.
> 
> *Breathe deep, you can find someone to understand and love you for who you are. This woman here does not even have that capacity and probably never will even with years of therapy. *
> 
> My children live with me 50% of the time. If I were to divorce my wife, get help for my issues, would your advice here change?
> 
> *I truely believe that you are intelligent and will seek the help you need to deal with your issues, so of course you should have 50% custody of your children. I just don't think they should be exposed to your current wife.*
> 
> No worries about being harsh. I am here for the truth so I can find an appropriate way forward.


*I think just about everyone here has told you their thoughts on terminating this marriage either by divorce or annulment. You need to find the courage and understanding that you alone can not make things better for her, ever. The damage that this relationship is causing you and your children will only get progressively worse and the downward spiral will become more and more difficult for you to get out of. 

Good luck.*


----------



## turnera

breathedeep said:


> I need a plan of action now. I do not want to just continue complaining and doing nothing. I am ready to move forward. Here's where I am:
> 
> Continue to be compassionate to her feelings and past experience.
> She and I continue MC.
> I will get IC to deal with my issues, and to help navigate through the next stage in this process.
> Put sex on the back burner for a while.
> Attend one or two of her IC sessions.
> Have her bring up this topic in our MC, when she is ready. (Do I set a timeline for this?)
> 
> What am I missing from the action list? Is it appropriate to set up a timeline for the entire process. For example, for me to say I need to see significant progress by February 2017 or I will have to leave the marriage?


Why aren't you telling her that she needs to remove the password from her phone and let you see it? You know, SINCE SHE CHEATED.

You have the moral grounds for this. And you refusing to do it screams fear of abandonment. How can SHE learn and grow if you're too scared to do even that?


----------



## breathedeep

Sun Catcher said:


> *I think just about everyone here has told you their thoughts on terminating this marriage either by divorce or annulment. You need to find the courage and understanding that you alone can not make things better for her, ever. The damage that this relationship is causing you and your children will only get progressively worse and the downward spiral will become more and more difficult for you to get out of.
> 
> Good luck.*


I understand. And thank you.


----------



## breathedeep

turnera said:


> Why aren't you telling her that she needs to remove the password from her phone and let you see it? You know, SINCE SHE CHEATED.
> 
> You have the moral grounds for this. And you refusing to do it screams fear of abandonment. How can SHE learn and grow if you're too scared to do even that?


Thank you for pointing that out. I have added it to the list.


----------



## turnera

breathedeep said:


> Thank you for pointing that out. I have added it to the list.


Add it to the list...and then what? 

Give her until Feb. 2017 to comply?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Remember this...

You didn't create her issues, you can't control her issues and you can't cure them. 

If she is unwilling to face her own recovery she is choosing to leave herself emotionally unavailable for any relationship including with you. That is where your boundaries come in. 

Will you allow refusal and just accept her as is?

Personally if that fulfilled you, thats your choice, but I would only partner with someone actively addressing healing.

Remember this as well, trauma is never an excuse for poor behavioral choices. It may explain them, but never excuses them, which also means her trauma does not mean you have to excuse the behavior. She shill needs accountability, which is the loving thing to do, but if she is unwilling to submit herself to that, and aren't willing to acceot her as is... This relationship is dead in the water.


----------



## breathedeep

turnera said:


> Add it to the list...and then what?
> 
> Give her until Feb. 2017 to comply?


No, she will need to do that immediately.

The reference to Feb 2017 was an example based on some of the comments here that I should set a timeline. I was asking if that was appropriate in this situation, or if these situations are open-ended and fluid and have to take as long as they take if I am truly committed.


----------



## turnera

Ok, cool. Let us know how that talk about the phone goes tonight.


----------



## breathedeep

Then I get these texts from her that really give me hope. I have seen this time and time again though, so I am VERY cautiously optimistic. This is from this morning.


----------



## breathedeep

turnera said:


> Ok, cool. Let us know how that talk about the phone goes tonight.


I will.

I am going to continue updating the thread often, as events happen. I know seeing this thread pop up at the top continually may be somewhat annoying, but I want everyone to know that just being able to talk to you all about this has been a huge help for me, so thank you for that.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

breathedeep said:


> Then I get these texts from her that really give me hope. I have seen this time and time again though, so I am VERY cautiously optimistic. This is from this morning.


Ok, I want to point out something in her first line. "what you want"

She is going to need to want healing for herself not for you, but it may take her a while to internalize it as such. But it's the end goal... for her to begin to value her own healing. Her seeing you go first may give her the courage to pursue the same. 

Please familiarize yourself with hoovering at Out of the FOG in interest of maintaining status quo, she is going to tell you what you want to hear because she has not internalized the need for her own healing yet. So you have to maintain the boundary line or standard of requiring her effort if that is what you have decided. Hoovering can keep you off balance, so its good to know what it is, how to recognize it and how to manage/react to it.


----------



## bandit.45

BPDers lie like horses piss. 

She may be lying about not enjoying the sex. She may have said that intentionally as a way to keep you off balance and keep you at arms length. BPDers are manipulators. They will do anything for self preservation and to control their environment, even throwing their familial relationships under the train if they feel they are being attacked or losing control of the situation. 

She would rather divorce you and throw her marriage away than deal with her problems. I don't know how someone gets past that. 

I say give yourself a deadline, say three months of working on yourself, doing the 180 and watching her. If she makes no move to work on her issues, then you need to get your ducks in a row and make some hard decisions. If she indeed does have BPD or some kind of personality disorder, then the most you can have is a woman who knows how to "act" like a wife but who can never "be" a real wife and companion to you. She simply lacks the wiring to be able to truly love you and empathize with you.


----------



## Evinrude58

She will give you these hopeful comments forever. Keep you on the hook. 
You need to move on. You can't fix crazy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tech-novelist

Words mean nothing a situation like this, with a known liar and/or irresponsible person. Actions are all that counts.

You've only been married a few months and you are going to wait another year for her to change? No. You cannot let things go along at her pace, because her pace is 2 steps forward, 2 steps back. You'll never get anywhere at that rate.

You have to take control of the situation. She must start working on her psychological issues, whatever they are, *right now*, or you have to get yourself out of this situation.


----------



## breathedeep

bandit.45 said:


> BPDers lie like horses piss.
> 
> She may be lying about not enjoying the sex. She may have said that intentionally as a way to keep you off balance and keep you at arms length. BPDers are manipulators. They will do anything for self preservation and to control their environment, even throwing their familial relationships under the train if they feel they are being attacked or losing control of the situation.
> 
> She would rather divorce you and throw her marriage away than deal with her problems. I don't know how someone gets past that.


I accepted her ring last night, and told her I was calling her bluff. After much more discussion, she agreed to counseling and whatever she had to do to work through this. I gave her ring back, but made it clear that I would need to go to a few of her counseling sessions, and she would have to do what she needs to do to deal with her issues. I told her I would be doing the same on my end. I let her know that if she doesn't, I will not reconsider next time. As I've mentioned, I've heard this from her so many times now, I don't think it will stick this time either, so I am watching closely and I am mentally prepared to walk away if I have to.



> I say give yourself a deadline, say three months of working on yourself, doing the 180 and watching her. If she makes no move to work on her issues, then you need to get your ducks in a row and make some hard decisions. If she indeed does have BPD or some kind of personality disorder, then the most you can have is a woman who knows how to "act" like a wife but who can never "be" a real wife and companion to you. She simply lacks the wiring to be able to truly love you and empathize with you.


I have already been making moves to put myself in a better position just in case I need to leave her. I have paid down all of my debt and began saving up money. Financially, I could leave anytime and be ok. I'll give this three months to see how it plays out. At the end, I will re-evaluate where we are. If we are making progress, I'll give it three more months. If not, I'll cut my losses.

Another problem in this situation is that she and I work together. I will need to come up with a plan on how to resolve this, should I find it necessary to leave the marriage. I am an executive at a well-established company and I have been here quite a few years. I am in line for the CEO position. She is a salesperson, and does not report directly to me. I would not want to leave here unless she just refused to. What are everyone's thoughts on this?

As an aside, I mentioned earlier in this thread that I am seeing a mentor on Wednesdays. I brought this situation up with him on Saturday and his initial response to me was, "What are the annulment laws for this type of situation?" I suppose it would be prudent for me to brush up on that topic as well.


----------



## Thor

breathedeep said:


> What I don't understand is that our sex life had been great until we got married in September 2015(or sometime around that time). I would have NEVER thought she would ever tell me she didn't enjoy it and has to go someplace else in her head. Either she has been doing a great job of faking, I am completely clueless, or some combination of both.


When the abuser is a family member, this is a common scenario.

As her boyfriend you were just some guy. For a lot of reasons, sex with you is fine. e.g. she learned to get validation via sexuality. She was valued for sex as a child, even though it was traumatizing. As a teen she may have found she was given attention and status by being sexual. And thus it was fine for her to be sexual with you, her boyfriend.

But when you got married, you instantly crossed over into a new category. Adult male _relative_. Which can make you very dangerous according to her experience.

Your experience is not uncommon.


----------



## breathedeep

Evinrude58 said:


> She will give you these hopeful comments forever. Keep you on the hook.
> You need to move on. You can't fix crazy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is how it has been for two and a half years. And yes, I now know that is on me. However, I am aware of what is going on now and am able to see a path forward. She will either take the necessary steps we've discussed in this thread, or next time I will have to leave.


----------



## breathedeep

technovelist said:


> You have to take control of the situation. She must start working on her psychological issues, whatever they are, *right now*, or you have to get yourself out of this situation.


This is the path I am on now. Your advice here has been integral to my understanding of the situation and seeing things much more clearly, so thank you.


----------



## breathedeep

Thor said:


> When the abuser is a family member, this is a common scenario.
> 
> As her boyfriend you were just some guy. For a lot of reasons, sex with you is fine. e.g. she learned to get validation via sexuality. She was valued for sex as a child, even though it was traumatizing. As a teen she may have found she was given attention and status by being sexual. And thus it was fine for her to be sexual with you, her boyfriend.
> 
> But when you got married, you instantly crossed over into a new category. Adult male _relative_. Which can make you very dangerous according to her experience.
> 
> Your experience is not uncommon.


She has echoed this exactly, first in drips as we became more serious, but now almost fully since our marriage and especially the last four or five days. You have hit the nail on the head.


----------



## Lots to Learn

breathedeep said:


> This is how it has been for two and a half years. And yes, I now know that is on me. However, I am aware of what is going on now and am able to see a path forward. She will either take the necessary steps we've discussed in this thread, or next time I will have to leave.


It's good you recognize this. Don't get strung along with words. Her actions must match her words. If not, you know where you stand. It won't take long to decipher now that you know. I encourage you not to linger in limbo hell any longer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tech-novelist

breathedeep said:


> As an aside, I mentioned earlier in this thread that I am seeing a mentor on Wednesdays. I brought this situation up with him on Saturday and his initial response to me was, "What are the annulment laws for this type of situation?" I suppose it would be prudent for me to brush up on that topic as well.


It sounds like you have someone who understands the severity of your situation. Congratulations!


----------



## Thor

Grogmiester said:


> My XW was abused by her step father from the age of 9 until I married her. I found out five years into my marriage when I came home and found her sitting on the living room floor rocking back and forth banging her head against the wall.
> 
> The fact your W never got IC specifically for this I think spells doom for your M. We're all a collection of our experiences as we grow older.
> 
> I think she was faking it because it's what she perceived to be what a good W does when they're intimate with their H. Her arguments were her way of processing the abuse and intimacy with you. I think the reason she told you the true is she can't do it any more. It's exhausting to have to "play a part".
> 
> Unfortunately her refusing to bring it up in any type of C should be a non starter. Theres no chance for the M if it's not addressed.


Unfortunately, I agree with your assessment.

But as you know, being the spouse of a CSA victim is not simple. If the issue were, for example, his wife cheated, then it is a lot easier to D.

But CSA is like some random disease, maybe MS or cancer. The victim didn't deserve it. It doesn't make them any less loved because of it. And certainly their spouse has sympathy and wants to help them find happiness.

A Secondary Survivor has to learn to put at least equal value on their own happiness. The Secondary Survivor is also a victim of the abuser. And the children are also indirectly impacted by the effects of CSA.

At some point the Secondary has to take the position that the victim has to be responsible for seeking real therapy. This is not an easy position, because we know the victim will not have an easy time. We don't want to inflict pain on our loved one, and we don't want to be yet another person who the victim sees as hurting them.

But ultimately it does come down to the Secondary having to set boundaries and expectations in order to protect their own mental health and that of the children.


----------



## tech-novelist

breathedeep said:


> This is the path I am on now. Your advice here has been integral to my understanding of the situation and seeing things much more clearly, so thank you.


You are quite welcome.


----------



## breathedeep

Thor said:


> Unfortunately, I agree with your assessment.
> 
> But as you know, being the spouse of a CSA victim is not simple. If the issue were, for example, his wife cheated, then it is a lot easier to D.
> 
> But CSA is like some random disease, maybe MS or cancer. The victim didn't deserve it. It doesn't make them any less loved because of it. And certainly their spouse has sympathy and wants to help them find happiness.
> 
> A Secondary Survivor has to learn to put at least equal value on their own happiness. The Secondary Survivor is also a victim of the abuser. And the children are also indirectly impacted by the effects of CSA.
> 
> At some point the Secondary has to take the position that the victim has to be responsible for seeking real therapy. This is not an easy position, because we know the victim will not have an easy time. We don't want to inflict pain on our loved one, and we don't want to be yet another person who the victim sees as hurting them.
> 
> But ultimately it does come down to the Secondary having to set boundaries and expectations in order to protect their own mental health and that of the children.


This is exactly it. She didn't ask for this, and I want to be compassionate for her experience and pain. I do not want to be yet another person that has hurt her. Your last line boils it down though; I have learned alot about boundaries and now its time to start putting into practice what I've learned. I also have children of my own that I need to protect, and now that this has been pointed out to me, I feel very guilty for putting them in this situation. That right there is a big motivator for me to make this right.


----------



## Thor

Evinrude58 said:


> That's crazy! I'm going to have to research this to get my head around it. Yet another reason to throw away the key on people that do this to someone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is a very good thing that I don't know the identity of my wife's abuser. Throwing away the key is not nearly enough!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

breathedeep said:


> This is how it has been for two and a half years. And yes, I now know that is on me. However, I am aware of what is going on now and am able to see a path forward. She will either take the necessary steps we've discussed in this thread, or next time I will have to leave.


Correct. Now that you are aware that effective boundaries can affect these behaviors, they will allow you to accurately test her willingness and capacity to pick up her mantle of healing. If she chooses not to she is choosing to allow her past to control her future instead of the other way around and its VERY hard to remain in a relationship like that. 

I couldn't.


----------



## Thor

breathedeep said:


> This is where I am stuck. She says she will absolutely not talk with a therapist about it. I believe it when she says she hasn't spoken with her current therapist about it because I've wondered the same thing, and she's given me little hints here and there that this topic has never been broached. She is already hesitant about going back to the counselor we have just started seeing, but I feel like it is a topic I need to bring up so that we can work through this. Should I wait until she brings it up when she feels ready? Should I bring up all of this with our current Marriage Counselor the next time I see him, even though she will see it as a betrayal of trust and will likely deny it and not go back again?
> 
> 
> 
> I definitely don't want to force her to have sex with me. If she doesn't want to be intimate with me, I couldn't muster half an erection to have sex with anyway. This is actually part of the problem now.
> 
> 
> 
> She was sexually abused by her brother. She says she told her mother, but her mother did nothing. And you are right, she was very promiscuous as a teen, and her subsequent abuse came at the hands of her mothers boyfriends. She has carried great resentment for her mother for not protecting her as a child.


Given this and what someone summarized from your other thread (which I have not read), I think you should look at your marriage as needing a complete rebuild. It needs to be burned to the ground and built back up.

Being a CSA survivor is one of the top 3 risk factors in a woman cheating in her marriage. Lots of dysfunctional psychology involved in that one. Another top 3 risk factor for cheating is having cheated in previous relationships.

I can't think of anything missing from the checklist of your wife's history and your marriage experience. You don't need a little bit of MC, and she doesn't need a little bit of IC. She needs a ton of qualified trauma therapy from a true expert in CSA. During that time I think you should consider yourself a supporter and cheerleader from the sidelines, and a room mate who shares living quarters. No sex unless her therapist says it is ok. Rebuilding the physical side of the relationship needs professional guidance.

I am not optimistic that she is going to make any large recovery, and certainly not within this year or even next year.

Meanwhile, IC for you with someone familiar with being a Secondary survivor would be helpful.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Thor said:


> Given this and what someone summarized from your other thread (which I have not read), I think you should look at your marriage as needing a complete rebuild. It needs to be burned to the ground and built back up.
> 
> Being a CSA survivor is one of the top 3 risk factors in a woman cheating in her marriage. Lots of dysfunctional psychology involved in that one. Another to 3 risk factor for cheating is having cheated in previous relationships.
> 
> I can't think of anything missing from the checklist of your wife's history and your marriage experience. You don't need a little bit of MC, and she doesn't need a little bit of IC. She needs a ton of qualified trauma therapy from a true expert in CSA. During that time I think you should consider yourself a supporter and cheerleader from the sidelines, and a room mate who shares living quarters. No sex unless her therapist says it is ok. Rebuilding the physical side of the relationship needs professional guidance.
> 
> I am not optimistic that she is going to make any large recovery, and certainly not within this year or even next year.
> 
> Meanwhile, IC for you with someone familiar with being a Secondary survivor would be helpful.


GREAT post


----------



## Thor

breathedeep said:


> She said she had not told me about any of this until after she and I got married because she was afraid I would leave her.
> 
> She told me that she actually has been trying to push me away, and the feeling has gotten much stronger since she and I got married. She said she cannot handle being close to someone. That it makes her scared and uncomfortable..


Sorry she is giving you the dramatics with the wedding ring.

Anyhow, same story from my wife, hiding all kinds of information from me before the wedding, and for many years thereafter, because she knew it would be deal breaker stuff for me. Nice. Rope someone into a marriage under false pretenses because you know they wouldn't stay if they knew the truth.

How's that for a kick in the nuts?

CSA survivors have a deep fear of abandonment. So she didn't tell you stuff she knew would drive you away. I think it also speaks to her fear that she is damaged, and doesn't want that fear proven true.

She may feel unlovable, and thinks the only reason a man would be interested in her is for sex. And she knows that sex is important in a marriage but doesn't have the ability to understand it properly. As my wife said, she always thought men just "need to spurt it out". She had no concept of emotional bonding via sex.

Your wife sounds the same. She fears you will leave now that you know the truth about her. She has a deep fear that she is broken or unlovable. She is confused and scared.


----------



## Uptown

breathedeep said:


> My wife says she has PTSD.... Now is it really PTSD or BPD?


Breathe, you are venturing into a very contentious issue when asking this question. Because 80% of the clients seen in mental health clinics have experienced a trauma, there is much controversy in the psychiatric community over how PTSD should be distinguished from other disorders.

This problem is particularly difficult when one is comparing PTSD to PDs. The reason is that PDs are not diseases. Rather, they are only groups of behavior symptoms. The defining traits for BPD, for example, include only behaviors -- and make no reference whatsoever to what caused those behaviors to develop. Hence, when you are seeing strong and persistent BPD behaviors, you are seeing "BPD traits" no matter WHAT caused them.

My understanding is that, when a trauma occurs before the age of 5, it results in BPD if the trauma is so serious that it freezes the child's emotional development and prevents development of an integrated, strong self identity. Hence, the child grows up having a fragile sense of self and lacking the emotional skills because there was no opportunity to learn them. This means the individual is fully reliant on the primitive ego defenses available to young children (e.g., projection, black-white thinking, and denial).

If the trauma occurs after the age of 4 and is sufficiently strong, it can produce PTSD -- wherein the brain is locked in survival mode. But the individual nonetheless has a strong self identity and at least some of the more mature emotional skills. So this person is said to have PTSD but not BPD.

Where the theory becomes very contentious is when a trauma occurring in late childhood or adulthood is so severe and sustained that it not only produces PTSD but also destroys the person's self image and emotional skills -- i.e., results in the person exhibiting strong and persistent BPD traits. If these behavioral symptoms are persistent and match those of severe BPD traits, you are seeing "BPD traits" -- because, by definition, that is exactly what BPD is (a group of those behaviors).

At issue, then, is whether PTSD can become very strong and persistent but do so in a way that clearly is _distinguishable from BPD_. Some professionals believe the answer is "yes" and they refer to this severe PTSD as "complex PTSD." To date, however, they have not persuaded the psychiatric community to include C-PTSD (complex PTSD) in the diagnostic manual. 

That's why it does not appear as a separate category in the DSM-5. And that's why there is no consistent definition for it. Hence, for ADULTS, I don't see that C-PTSD is a useful term whenever a professional chooses to define it as including the very same traits as BPD.

For CHILDREN and ADOLESCENTS, however, I can see how C-PTSD can be a useful term even when it is defined to be identical to BPD behavior. Although strong BPD traits are often observed in children, therapists generally are loath to use the term "BPD" until the person is at least 18 years old. 

As I've observed in other threads, we all behave like full-blown BPDers 24/7 when we are 3 years old -- and many of us starting behaving that way again during puberty when the hormones surge. Hence, until the social stigma of exhibiting "BPD traits" is diminished through public education, it is useful to have another term for "strong-but-temporary BPD traits" that does not mistakenly imply a child will have a PD when he grows up.


----------



## bandit.45

First she would have to agree to seeing a psychiatrist or a behavioral psychologist to be evaluated for PTSD or personality disorder, which she probably would not. On the off-chance that the planets aligned and she decided to go through with such an evaluation, there are some therapists qualified to deal with personality disorder, but not many. There are some studies that show that BDRer or people with PDs actually get worse from therapy...not better. 

I guess what I'm saying is, the odds are stacked against you that you will ever have any long lasting positive outcome, no matter what amount of therapy you get her to agree to. Personality Disorder is not a psychosis or mood disorder that can be treated with SSRIs or psychotropics. It is an irreparable systemic behavioral problem. The person is just wired wrong, and no amount of therapy is going to fix it.


----------



## breathedeep

technovelist said:


> It sounds like you have someone who understands the severity of your situation. Congratulations!


I am very lucky his and my path happened to cross.


----------



## breathedeep

bandit.45 said:


> First she would have to agree to seeing a psychiatrist or a behavioral psychologist to be evaluated for PTSD or personality disorder, which she probably would not. On the off-chance that the planets aligned and she decided to go through with such an evaluation, there are some therapists qualified to deal with personality disorder, but not many. There are some studies that show that BDRer or people with PDs actually get worse from therapy...not better.
> 
> I guess what I'm saying is, the odds are stacked against you that you will ever have any long lasting positive outcome, no matter what amount of therapy you get her to agree to. Personality Disorder is not a psychosis or mood disorder that can be treated with SSRIs or psychotropics. It is an irreparable systemic behavioral problem. The person is just wired wrong, and no amount of therapy is going to fix it.


Since I am not to bring up the topic of BPD with her, I can only hope that she will choose to go to IC and talk about her abuse, and that will lead to discussion of these symptoms and possible diagnosis of PTSD and/or BPD. That is alot left to chance and hope, though.

Is it cruel, selfish, or unsympathetic for me to bring this up in MC if she has not done so after a certain time?


----------



## tom67

breathedeep said:


> More discussion today. I'll keep this short as I'm sure everyone is tired of seeing the continual play-by-play of our discussions.
> 
> She said she had not told me about any of this until after she and I got married because she was afraid I would leave her.
> 
> She told me that she actually has been trying to push me away, and the feeling has gotten much stronger since she and I got married. She said she cannot handle being close to someone. That it makes her scared and uncomfortable.
> 
> She started telling me how she was not going to change for me, and that she wasn't going to be this person I could mold into who I wanted. She said I would be better off finding someone else than trying to change her. She said she is tired of pretending and keeping up the facade. She then walked over to me and handed me her wedding ring and told me to go find someone else to mold into the person I want.


Well you have your answer and get out of jail card.
Sorry but for your sanity divorce is the only way.


----------



## samruck2

Hi Breathedeep,

someone gave a link to my blog on this thread. Obviously I am in no position to make any kind of diagnosis of your wife's issues, but from the little I've read of this 17 page discussion, your wife and my wife certainly seem to share some similarities. If you want to discuss anything, I am always happy to do so over on my blog or thru emails (address is on the About page). I can see the pain and frustration you both must be experiencing. Remember, she did NOT ask to be sexually abused as a child. I'm not saying you must stay with her at all costs, but she's not doing this to you to trick you or manipulate you or some of the other things others have suggested. And another thing: this is NOT a life sentence like one poster suggested. There CAN be healing especially when the trauma victim has an involved and supportive family, but yes, it will be hard and it will not be quick. You have to decide who you are. Once you figure that out, it will help you decide whether you should stay or leave.

Sam


----------



## bandit.45

breathedeep said:


> Is it cruel, selfish, or unsympathetic for me to bring this up in MC if she has not done so after a certain time?


I guess it would depend on how much groundwork you have laid. I would not just spring it on her. She could freak out. But it sounds to me like she has given the ultimatum that she will divorce you rather than succumb to IC or talk about her CSA. So I guess you need to watch her and see if she becomes amenable to it.

In the end you have to ask yourself what she is responsible for and what she is not. No, she did not ask to be sexually abused, and yes, many CSA survivors do become waywards as adults. But not all people with CSA histories end up cheating on their spouses. Many learn healthy coping techniques to overcome the dysfunction CSA brings. Your wife never did apparently.


----------



## turnera

breathedeep said:


> Since I am not to bring up the topic of BPD with her, I can only hope that she will choose to go to IC and talk about her abuse, and that will lead to discussion of these symptoms and possible diagnosis of PTSD and/or BPD. That is alot left to chance and hope, though.
> 
> Is it cruel, selfish, or unsympathetic for me to bring this up in MC if she has not done so after a certain time?


You're not listening. It's great that you're agreeing to stand by her, after what she's done. But at the same time, it's your responsibility to have boundaries in place BECAUSE you're standing by her, with resulting consequences if she breaks those boundaries.

By agreeing to 'keep' her for now, your boundary should be, must be, 'you have to discuss your CSA in therapy if you want me to stay; I want to be here for you, but I won't, I CAN'T, if YOU won't get the help you need for your CSA. I'll help you find a new therapist if you want a new one, but this is my line in the sand. My boundary. I'm expecting you to either have a new therapist appointment by the end of March, which I'll be going to, or else to bring me along to your current therapist, so I can be part of the conversation for at least one session, so that I know your therapist knows what she's working with. I can't force you to stay with me, and I can't force you to go to therapy and discuss this if you don't want to. Just understand that that's my boundary now, and the consequence I will have to put in place is that if you choose NOT to address it, I will have to move on. I want to help you, support you, but staying while you don't address your real problem is not feasible. Or helpful for either of us.'


----------



## breathedeep

bandit.45 said:


> I guess it would depend on how much groundwork you have laid. I would not just spring it on her. She could freak out. But it sounds to me like she has given the ultimatum that she will divorce you rather than succumb to IC or talk about her CSA. So I guess you need to watch her and see if she becomes amenable to it.
> 
> In the end you have to ask yourself what she is responsible for and what she is not. No, she did not ask to be sexually abused, and yes, many CSA survivors do become waywards as adults. But not all people with CSA histories end up cheating on their spouses. Many learn healthy coping techniques to overcome the dysfunction CSA brings. Your wife never did apparently.


Thank you. I will leave it to her in her own time then.

And her ultimatums seem to be blustering right now. I think if it came down to it, she would seek the help she needs.


----------



## breathedeep

turnera said:


> You're not listening. It's great that you're agreeing to stand by her, after what she's done. But at the same time, it's your responsibility to have boundaries in place BECAUSE you're standing by her, with resulting consequences if she breaks those boundaries.
> 
> By agreeing to 'keep' her for now, your boundary should be, must be, 'you have to discuss your CSA in therapy if you want me to stay; I want to be here for you, but I won't, I CAN'T, if YOU won't get the help you need for your CSA. I'll help you find a new therapist if you want a new one, but this is my line in the sand. My boundary. I'm expecting you to either have a new therapist appointment by the end of March, which I'll be going to, or else to bring me along to your current therapist, so I can be part of the conversation for at least one session, so that I know your therapist knows what she's working with. I can't force you to stay with me, and I can't force you to go to therapy and discuss this if you don't want to. Just understand that that's my boundary now, and the consequence I will have to put in place is that if you choose NOT to address it, I will have to move on. I want to help you, support you, but staying while you don't address your real problem is not feasible. Or helpful for either of us.'


Very much understood.

I am currently engaged in a conversation (via messenger since we are at work) with her in which I am laying this out to her. I will post the conversation here once we get to a stopping point. I'd love everyone's feedback on it.


----------



## breathedeep

My wife just had me purchase this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Allies-Healin...F8&qid=1455566232&sr=1-5&keywords=laura+davis

Anyone have any experience with it? Thoughts?

I will purchase the others mentioned in this thread as well.


----------



## Evinrude58

How long have you been married?

Do you really think that "counseling", books, and boundaries is going to help you and your wife have great sex, keep her from cheating, and result in a person who you are able to enjoy spending your life with?

If you've been married less than a year and your wife tells you she's never liked sex with you, and you know she's already cheated on you, why would you POssibly do this to yourself? It's hard enough to stay married and happy with a normal person.

But, I do truly wish you luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Yes and no. These books address and inform you of the CSA's issues and are good. They do not HELP YOU with your issues. You need help dealing with your feelings before you can fully heal and deal with hers. Yes, your issues are just as relevant as her to fix this marriage.


----------



## Annie123

breathedeep said:


> My wife just had me purchase this book:
> 
> Amazon.com: Allies in Healing: When the Person You Love Is a Survivor of Child Sexual Abuse eBook: Laura Davis: Books
> 
> Anyone have any experience with it? Thoughts?
> 
> I will purchase the others mentioned in this thread as well.


This is what one of the reviews says:


> This book was suggested to me by my husband's counselor. The format is easy to read, no plowing through chapter by chapter. Remember though, this was written by a survivor. There is some very good advice for partners but it seems geared towards accomodating the survivor and not addressing the needs of the partner.
> *It is a good book, if your partner is well into the healing process. I don't recommend this book if your partner has just begun healing.* If they've just started healing, read this as a companion book to Ken Graber's _Ghosts in the Bedroom_. I found some of the sections in _Allies in Healing_ helpful and enlightening. But when I got to the sections dealing with sex my heart sank. To be told to get used to being a nun/monk is more than a little disheartening.


Hopefully someone here who's read it can give their opinion.


----------



## breathedeep

In our current conversation, she has begrudgingly agreed to working on this. I keep saying she has to want to heal for her (I am using the statement Blossom used in Post #230). She has responded with this:

"You keep emphasizing the fact that it has to be for myself. I have to be honest and say that if you werent asking this of me, I likely wouldnt do this. I would continue working on coping with it, not trudging through it"

To me, this statement lets me know she isn't really ready to deal with this. What do you all see in this?


----------



## giddiot

breathedeep said:


> My wife just had me purchase this book:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Allies-Healin...F8&qid=1455566232&sr=1-5&keywords=laura+davis
> 
> Anyone have any experience with it? Thoughts?
> 
> I will purchase the others mentioned in this thread as well.


Im afraid she is beyond reading a book to fix this. She apparently had serious abuse, she needs help not a book.


----------



## breathedeep

giddiot said:


> Im afraid she is beyond reading a book to fix this. She apparently had serious abuse, she needs help not a book.


The book was for me to read so that I can better understand her. Your second sentence is correct.


----------



## giddiot

breathedeep said:


> The book was for me to read so that I can better understand her. Your second sentence is correct.


I assumed the book was for both of you to read together.


----------



## breathedeep

giddiot said:


> I assumed the book was for both of you to read together.


I hope she and I can do that. In that case, I agree with your post.


----------



## breathedeep

Evinrude58 said:


> How long have you been married?


Since September, 2015.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

breathedeep said:


> In our current conversation, she has begrudgingly agreed to working on this. I keep saying she has to want to heal for her (I am using the statement Blossom used in Post #230). She has responded with this:
> 
> "You keep emphasizing the fact that it has to be for myself. I have to be honest and say that if you werent asking this of me, I likely wouldnt do this. I would continue working on coping with it, not trudging through it"
> 
> To me, this statement lets me know she isn't really ready to deal with this. What do you all see in this?


You can't ask her to do it for herself, you have to allow her to grow into that space on her own. What is important is your boundary. What do you see as your boundary? You looking to her is codependent.


----------



## breathedeep

Blossom Leigh said:


> You can't ask her to do it for herself, you have to allow her to grow into that space on her own. What is important is your boundary. What do you see as your boundary? You looking to her is codependent.


I misunderstood what you posted in #230:

"She is going to need to want healing for herself not for you, but it may take her a while to internalize it as such. But it's the end goal... for her to begin to value her own healing. Her seeing you go first may give her the courage to pursue the same."

I'm going to have to do more reading on this so that I better understand the nuances here.


----------



## MattMatt

breathedeep said:


> I misunderstood what you posted in #230:
> 
> "She is going to need to want healing for herself not for you, but it may take her a while to internalize it as such. But it's the end goal... for her to begin to value her own healing. Her seeing you go first may give her the courage to pursue the same."
> 
> I'm going to have to do more reading on this so that I better understand the nuances here.


It's not going to be easy.

One thing that is traumatic for the partner of a survivor of CSA is that it is possible that whenever you were having sexual intercourse with them, whilst you were feeling pleasure, at least a good part of them was back somewhere else thinking: "No dad/uncle! Don't do this to me!" 

Sorry. Sorry for that, but this thread just triggered me and brought back a very unpleasant memory that I thought I'd buried. But obviously, not deep enough.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

breathedeep said:


> I misunderstood what you posted in #230:
> 
> "She is going to need to want healing for herself not for you, but it may take her a while to internalize it as such. But it's the end goal... for her to begin to value her own healing. Her seeing you go first may give her the courage to pursue the same."
> 
> I'm going to have to do more reading on this so that I better understand the nuances here.


Ok.. lets dig into this a bit.. in my situation my H hit my boundary. I found I could no longer live in the chaos and expressed that I had hit my personal limit with it. I told him that his anger issues were now falling outside my ability to cope and that to continue as a married couple he would need to seek professional help with it. If he didn't seek it by the next month we would be separating. If he continued to refuse help, he would be choosing to risk divorce with me (took him two more months). Then I allowed him to seek his own path and over time it became important to him to be better. Anytime he pressed me to provide the work for him or he tried to manage me, I would tell him to keep his eyes on his own paper. By the time I saw *consistent* significant changes took almost a year.


----------



## jld

samruck2 said:


> Hi Breathedeep,
> 
> someone gave a link to my blog on this thread. Obviously I am in no position to make any kind of diagnosis of your wife's issues, but from the little I've read of this 17 page discussion, your wife and my wife certainly seem to share some similarities. If you want to discuss anything, I am always happy to do so over on my blog or thru emails (address is on the About page). I can see the pain and frustration you both must be experiencing. Remember, she did NOT ask to be sexually abused as a child. I'm not saying you must stay with her at all costs, but she's not doing this to you to trick you or manipulate you or some of the other things others have suggested. And another thing: this is NOT a life sentence like one poster suggested. There CAN be healing especially when the trauma victim has an involved and supportive family, but yes, it will be hard and it will not be quick. You have to decide who you are. Once you figure that out, it will help you decide whether you should stay or leave.
> 
> Sam


Hi, Sam. Thanks so much for dropping by. Your blog is a testament to a husband's love.


----------



## breathedeep

Blossom Leigh said:


> Ok.. lets dig into this a bit.. in my situation my H hit my boundary. I found I could no longer live in the chaos and expressed that I had hit my personal limit with it. I told him that his anger issues were now falling outside my ability to cope and that to continue as a married couple he would need to seek professional help with it. If he didn't seek it by the next month we would be separating. If he continued to refuse help, he would be choosing to risk divorce with me (took him two more months). Then I allowed him to seek his own path and over time it became important to him to be better. Anytime he pressed me to provide the work for him or he tried to manage me, I would tell him to keep his eyes on his own paper. By the time I saw *consistent* significant changes took almost a year.


OK - so instead of verbalizing to her that she needs to do this for her, simply tell her what my boundaries are, and then allow her to make her own choice from there?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

breathedeep said:


> OK - so instead of verbalizing to her that she needs to do this for her, simply tell her what my boundaries are, and then allow her to make her own choice from there?


Exactly. It's ok to cast the vision that that is the end goal but don't hammer her unless she's leaning on you to hard or abusive, THEN go hard line.


----------



## breathedeep

samruck2 said:


> Hi Breathedeep,
> 
> someone gave a link to my blog on this thread. Obviously I am in no position to make any kind of diagnosis of your wife's issues, but from the little I've read of this 17 page discussion, your wife and my wife certainly seem to share some similarities. If you want to discuss anything, I am always happy to do so over on my blog or thru emails (address is on the About page). I can see the pain and frustration you both must be experiencing. Remember, she did NOT ask to be sexually abused as a child. I'm not saying you must stay with her at all costs, but she's not doing this to you to trick you or manipulate you or some of the other things others have suggested. And another thing: this is NOT a life sentence like one poster suggested. There CAN be healing especially when the trauma victim has an involved and supportive family, but yes, it will be hard and it will not be quick. You have to decide who you are. Once you figure that out, it will help you decide whether you should stay or leave.
> 
> Sam


Hi Sam - thank you for your contribution to this thread, and to all of us in this situation through your blog. I do remind myself very often that she did not ask for what happened to her, and I do not want to punish her in any way for that. I want to be compassionate, while not allowing myself or my children to be hurt as little as possible (mitigating the hurt at this point).

Thank you for the offer to continue the discussion with me via email; I may just take you up on that.

I would also like to extend the offer to you that you stick around here. I believe your experience could be invaluable to others that have gone through similar situations.


----------



## jld

breathedeep said:


> I would also like to extend the offer to you that you stick around here. I believe your experience could be invaluable to others that have gone through similar situations.


Totally agree with that. You are a wonderful example, Sam. Inspiring.


----------



## Grogmiester

MattMatt said:


> <snip>
> Sorry. Sorry for that, but this thread just triggered me and brought back a very unpleasant memory that I thought I'd buried. But obviously, not deep enough.


MattMatt you're not alone. It's been a trigger for me too and I've been divorced 20 years.
@breathedeep I have to compliment you on your strong boundries. My boundries were just about nonexistent at the end of my marriage. I'm being facetious but if I didn't have my drivers license in my wallet I wouldn't have know who I was.

I mentioned in an earlier post how much information was being generated by this thread in such a small amount of time. In fact I'd never heard of the term "secondary victims" of CSA. It's something I'm going to be looking into for myself.

You've stated you want to help her if you can and I admire that. My advice to you from my experience is you need to have very strong boundries to keep your compassion in check. 

I think the incident with the ring and her asking you if you were cheating were attempts to exert her control over you. Persons with PD have a way of drawing you into their worlds and they set their emotional hooks into you. So like I said strong boundries will help protect you from being drawn in.

If you are successful at getting her to open up to a counselor for her CSA be very watchful. Why I'm mentioning this is persons with PD can be adaptive in whatever environment they're in. I wouldn't want to see you in a situation where you think she's making progress when she's actually "acting" with the C and just being what she thinks recovery should look like.


----------



## breathedeep

Grogmiester said:


> MattMatt you're not alone. It's been a trigger for me too and I've been divorced 20 years.
> 
> @breathedeep I have to compliment you on your strong boundries. My boundries were just about nonexistent at the end of my marriage. I'm being facetious but if I didn't have my drivers license in my wallet I wouldn't have know who I was.
> 
> I mentioned in an earlier post how much information was being generated by this thread in such a small amount of time. In fact I'd never heard of the term "secondary victims" of CSA. It's something I'm going to be looking into for myself.


This thread has opened up a whole new point of view for me. You were correct in your previous post; it is amazing how much information I/we have in such a short amount of time. In the past, most of us would have had to wait weeks, months, or years to get the information from counseling that we have received here in a matter of hours and days. I am truly thankful for that.

As for the compliment on my boundaries, I certainly appreciate the sentiment, but I feel that my *lack of boundaries* is partially why I am in the situation I am (and as a result, my children are now in a bad situation not of their making). It is true though that I have learned quite a bit about boundaries in the last few months, but as you can see from my posts, what I've learned is only the tip of the iceberg and I have been able to successfully implement even less. I am studying hard though.



> You've stated you want to help her if you can and I admire that. My advice to you from my experience is you need to have very strong boundries to keep your compassion in check.


I will admit now that this is going to be one of my biggest trouble areas. I will want to fall back into my old habits of being the 'white knight' at my expense, as someone else mentioned in this thread.



> I think the incident with the ring and her asking you if you were cheating were attempts to exert her control over you. Persons with PD have a way of drawing you into their worlds and they set their emotional hooks into you. So like I said strong boundries will help protect you from being drawn in.


In the past, she I have tried to implement boundaries (unknowingly) and she has blown right through them, or should I say I allowed her to blow right through them. She has used manipulation in the past as a way to control me, as when she wanted me back after she left me for her ex. She would say, "Please come back to me. I made a mistake. Haven't you ever made a mistake before? Please don't be like everyone else who threw me away after they were done with me." I fell for it then. My eyes are open now.



> If you are successful at getting her to open up to a counselor for her CSA be very watchful. Why I'm mentioning this is persons with PD can be adaptive in whatever environment they're in. I wouldn't want to see you in a situation where you think she's making progress when she's actually "acting" with the C and just being what she thinks recovery should look like.


I will be watching for this very closely, and I hope that I am strong enough to recognize if it is happening. She has been able to fool me by 'acting' during what is supposed to be the most intimate act two people can share, so I know now what she is capable of.


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## turnera

breathedeep said:


> In our current conversation, she has begrudgingly agreed to working on this. I keep saying she has to want to heal for her (I am using the statement Blossom used in Post #230). She has responded with this:
> 
> "You keep emphasizing the fact that it has to be for myself. I have to be honest and say that if you weren't asking this of me, I likely wouldn't do this. I would continue working on coping with it, not trudging through it"
> 
> To me, this statement lets me know she isn't really ready to deal with this. What do you all see in this?


Going to therapy, doing the hard work in therapy, is tough business! I cry every.single.time I go to therapy. Every time.

People usually don't LIKE doing it. The difference is when you realize that what you currently have is detrimental, or painful, or not worth keeping at the risk of losing something important.

Is keeping you more important to her than staying in her status quo? Only she knows. That's why you can't TELL her she has to do it and why you must keep insisting that your BOUNDARY is to NOT STAY unless she decides she's willing to do the hard work of (real) therapy. About her CSA.

That's why boundaries and consequences are so important. It's about YOU and what you'll accept and not accept.

Try to understand, though, that to her, going to IC and telling the truth is TERRIFYING. Her entire core being is centered around being worthless, damaged, disgusting - and about HIDING that from the world. Look up Toxic Shame, show it to her; she'll likely go yes! That's me!

So she absolutely HAS to know that you can't and won't stay unless she takes this important step. Tell her you'll support her as she works through it - it's gonna be messy - but if she chooses the easy way out (avoiding CSA in therapy), then you recognize that you two have no future, that she will spend the rest of her life damaged and self-destructive, and that you love her, but you love YOU, too, and you won't be her enabler.

Then step back and let her decide.


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## MattMatt

breathedeep said:


> This thread has opened up a whole new point of view for me. You were correct in your previous post; it is amazing how much information I/we have in such a short amount of time. In the past, most of us would have had to wait weeks, months, or years to get the information from counseling that we have received here in a matter of hours and days. I am truly thankful for that.
> 
> As for the compliment on my boundaries, I certainly appreciate the sentiment, but I feel that my *lack of boundaries* is partially why I am in the situation I am (and as a result, my children are now in a bad situation not of their making). It is true though that I have learned quite a bit about boundaries in the last few months, but as you can see from my posts, what I've learned is only the tip of the iceberg and I have been able to successfully implement even less. I am studying hard though.
> 
> 
> 
> I will admit now that this is going to be one of my biggest trouble areas. I will want to fall back into my old habits of being the 'white knight' at my expense, as someone else mentioned in this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> In the past, she I have tried to implement boundaries (unknowingly) and she has blown right through them, or should I say I allowed her to blow right through them. She has used manipulation in the past as a way to control me, as when she wanted me back after she left me for her ex. She would say, "Please come back to me. I made a mistake. Haven't you ever made a mistake before?* Please don't be like everyone else who threw me away after they were done with me.*" I fell for it then. My eyes are open now.
> 
> 
> 
> I will be watching for this very closely, and I hope that I am strong enough to recognize if it is happening. She has been able to fool me by 'acting' during what is supposed to be the most intimate act two people can share, so I know now what she is capable of.


That quote from your wife. You know, that might be just how it feels for a victim of CSA when the perp eventually moves on from them.

They do throw them away when they are done with them.


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## FrazzledSadHusband

Here is the other link I wanted to send you - Trapped by Trauma - The Forgiven Wife

This would be a good one for her to read.

Below is a quote from the article.

It isn’t fair at all. It isn’t fair to us to have to deal with something because of someone else’s horrific sins against us. It isn’t fair to husbands who face the effects of our trauma.

It isn’t fair to our marriages, either.


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## Uptown

breathedeep said:


> I will be watching for this very closely [for real improvement in therapy], and I hope that I am strong enough to recognize if it is happening.


I agree with @*Grogmiester* that, when you are "watching closely" for her improvement, it will be EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to determine whether real progress is being made. After all, how would you know? If she is a BPDer as you suspect, she is emotionally unstable. This means she is frequently changing. BPDers thus are frequently seen making dramatic improvements -- typically about 6 to 8 weeks before making another dramatic decline.

Like smokers who are seen throwing away their "last pack" every two months, BPDers usually are seen making numerous dramatic improvements. That's the way unstable people behave. With my BPDer exW, for example, I witnessed dozens of huge improvements, each of which was sustained for many weeks. Over a period of 15 years, I spent a small fortune sending her to weekly sessions with 6 different psychologists and 3 MCs. 

During that time, I was so in love with her that I convinced myself that I was seeing permanent changes. Yet, at the end of our 15 year marriage -- when she had me thrown into jail on a bogus charge and evicted me from my own home on a R/O -- I finally had to admit to myself that 15 years of therapy had not made a dent in her BPD traits. NOT ONE DENT. 

What typically happens as the years go by is that, as the BPDer sees her body aging, she becomes increasingly fearful of abandonment. At the same time, she becomes increasingly resentful of your "failure" to make her happy (an impossible task). Hence, after 12 to 15 years, the usual outcome IME is that the BPDer walks out on her caregiver husband -- as my exW did to me.

Granted, most major cities offer excellent treatment programs (e.g., DBT and CBT) for BPDers -- teaching them how to better manage their emotions. It nonetheless is rare for a BPDer to have sufficient self awareness and ego strength to be willing to work hard enough -- and stay in such a program long enough -- to make a real difference.

I would guess that, for the vast majority of BPDers who are high functioning, the success rate is 1% at most. Hence, if you decide to wait around to see if your W is a member of that elite 1%, I wish you the very best outcome. But I strongly advise against waiting 5 or 10 years -- or 15 years like I did -- unless you are absolutely convinced she is making real and substantial progress (and is not having a harmful effect on your children in the meantime). As *Grog* says, it is important to "watch closely" to determine whether you're seeing real progress or, rather, just another upswing in the roller coaster ride.


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## samruck2

Hi breathedeep,

I've continued to watch this thread and thinking about your situation...It's really important that you figure out who you are and what makes you tick. Until I did that, my wife's issues simply triggered my issues. And even though mine were much less severe than hers, we ended up in a vicious circle and so instead of having any hope of helping her AND us, I just made things worse. For me it took a year or two of obsessive journaling to figure out what made me tick and why I was willing to stay in a dysfunctional marriage. But once I figured out the various things about myself, then I could help my wife without her issues constantly triggering me. Her issues still hurt like hell; I'm not going to candy coat it. But now when her issues unintentionally harm me, I can deal with the pain because I've figured out WHY I'm still in this marriage when most people would have left a long time ago. That's not to judge others. We are all different and all have different pasts which make each one of us 'tick' differently. But this is how I am wired, and so even though it's a painful course, I am willing to stick with it.

Now this is my observation of this entire thread in general. You are being offered a lot of advice about boundaries. I know boundaries are all the rage right now. And I'm not going to try to dissuade anyone because I'm in the minority, but what inherently is a boundary? To me a boundary is all about protecting and keeping out. We always talk about making boundaries to protect ourselves from hurt and pain others can cause us. And that's fine, but in a marriage where intimacy is considered the goal, boundaries are a hindrance to that goal. I realize people make boundaries for a reason: to stop the pain, but they have an unintended consequence of hindering intimacy. Again, I'm not making a judgment here. We are all wired differently. You just need to understand who you are and IF you decide to go with boundaries as a firewall to the pain be sure WHY you are using them and also understand the consequences.

But if you go to my blog you will realize I have chosen a different path: attachment theory. Boundaries KEEP people and things out. Attachment theory is about bringing someone else into our own sphere...and them allowing us into their sphere. A person who has been sexually abused as a child will have her/his attachment systems screwed up. I am fixing my wife's attachment systems. Yes, she is literally shattered into various personalities, but one by one I am attaching each girl to myself and then to each other. Your wife may or may not be as severely shattered as mine, but from the things you keep sharing, it's clear her attachment systems are shattered: part of her wants to be attached to you. Part of her is now pushing you away because she's afraid to lose you, so she's going to protect herself by initiating the breakup that she's 'sure' will come.

Anyway boundaries vs. attachment. Yes, by choosing attachment I am choosing to join my self to my wife and endure the pain in her heart and our relationship as she heals. We are 'fox hole buddies' and I have made her disorder the 'enemy' and no longer see her as the enemy. We are going thru the hell together and slowly we are making it thru this nightmare...and slowly our relationship is finally becoming more reciprocal.

Again none of this is to judge you or the others talking about boundaries. Boundaries are 'the rage' but they come at a cost. You need to figure out who you are so you can make an informed decision about whether you will stay or leave. But don't allow yourself to be triggered into making a decision irrationally.

Take care,

Sam


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## breathedeep

Had a 5 hour discussion with my wife last night. Well, I think it would be better categorized as us having a 5 minute discussion followed by 4 hours and 55 minutes of her swearing, yelling, and calling me names. I wrote most of what follows last night so my memory of the events were still fresh.

This one is long, so you might want to grab a cup of coffee and a seat. I apologize in advance for the length.

Everything started out ok. During the day we had been talking about how we were ready to do what we needed to do to have a successful marriage and a healthy relationship, so we started our conversation there, talking about how we know the process is going to be long and difficult, but reassuring each other that we were committed. She asked me what the process looked like from my perspective and what I needed from her. I told her that for me to be able to stay in the marriage, she would have to find a counselor that specializes in CSA. I told her that I would be there with her every step and that I would be going to my own counseling for my childhood abuse. 

This is where it turned bad. She said I didn’t know what i was asking of her. She called me a selfish ******* and said I was using her marriage against her. She said I was forcing her to do something and using our marriage to control her. I told her I wasn’t giving her an ultimatum or forcing her. She said yes you are, you are leaving me no choice but to live by your rules or you will divorce me. I told her i was not telling her what she had to do, but i am telling her what I need to stay in this marriage. She said that is an ultimatum. I said it is a boundary. She said I could take my boundaries and books and shove them up my ass. She said she would not allow me to give her an ultimatum and would not allow me to control her. She said I was using what she told me the other day when she opened up against her. She said I was being cruel and she didn't deserve this. By this point she was yelling and swearing at me, calling me a selfish a-hole, saying I am despicable for doing this to her, etc… I had to ask her to calm down several times so that we could have a discussion, and that her yelling and swearing at me was not us having a discussion. She said I was treating her like a child.

She said she couldn't believe I was destroying our marriage and treating her this way over sex and that I was severely over reacting. 

She reiterated that she could never trust me again and that I have ruined our relationship by giving her a bull$hit ultimatum. She said that she would never open up to me again because she gets punished. She said I am just like all the other men, especially her ex-husband.

She said I was using her vulnerability to control her and make her do what I want. Said I was doing this out of selfishness and my ridiculous need for sex, and not from a place of love and compassion. She said that no person who supposedly loved someone would ask such a thing of them.

She said she wouldn't go to counseling on my terms. I told her I wasn't giving her terms, that I was only telling her what I needed to stay in this relationship. She said she hoped I realize how dangerous this path was that i am leading them down. She said I was not going to tell her how long she had to go. She asked me if I'd even know what her getting better would look like. She asked me how I would know when she was healthy and ready to stop going. She said she was going to have to live day to day in fear that her ‘recovery’ wasn't good enough for me and that I would be gone when she came home. She asked me when I became such an expert on CSA to feel qualified to tell her she needs to get help.

She said her sexual abuse wasn't the reason for any of her problems and that I would be wasting our time and money with my bull$hit ultimatums. Said the real issue here is the abuse she suffered from her ex-husband. She said unequivocally I could not go with her and that time was for her and no counselor would allow me to go anyway. She said me insisting on going is just another way I am trying to control her. She said if I did go, she wouldn't be able to open up to the counselor so it would be a waste of time and the only reason I want to go is so I can take notes and make sure she's on task and not faking a recovery.

She said I don't know anything about CSA and I have no right to be issuing ultimatums after reading a few books. I told her this is not about my expertise on CSA. It is about her behavior towards me and that I am no longer willing to accept the way she treats me and that seeing the counselor about the CSA is the first step. She reiterated that the sexual abuse has nothing to do with this and that it actually plays little to no part in our relationship at all. Of course I argued that she said otherwise the previous four or five days, and that she even admitted that she couldn’t trust anyone because of her sexual abuse, and that trust was one of the main factors in a relationship. She the admitted again that she couldn’t trust because of what happened, but that was the only way what happened affects us.

She asked me what other ultimatums I have for her. I told her I need her to unlock her phone. She got very defensive. She said she could not take the fingerprint lock off, that it is part of the phones built in security. When I said she could turn it off, she said she wouldn't do it because she has to keep her kids out. She then said this is just another way I am trying to control her. She said I am really starting to show my true colors and that she doesn't even know who I am anymore. She said she doesn't like this person I've become and that my books and articles have ruined our marriage. She asked me what I am insinuating by asking her to unlock her phone and said me asking that shows I have serious trust issues and If I need to snoop through her phone we are already too far gone. I reminded her that she has cheated on me and her ex in the past. She asked me when I was going to forgive her for that. She said she has apologized and I have no right to keep holding it over her head. She said that is no way to be in a relationship and since we are setting boundaries, there, that's hers. She said she cannot live with another person who is always suspicious of her. She reiterated that she doesn't know who I am or who I've become and me reading some stupid books doesn't make me an expert on boundaries and CSA. She said that her experience is completely different so I have made a serious mistake trying to put her into some category I read in a book or article. 

She said all of this is my fault. Said this wasn't about us or her getting help, but it was about me being a despicable *******. She said she wasn't the one with the problem here. Said this is my problem and that she was fine. She asked me what I was going to do to fix us. I told her I would be going to counseling too. She asked if she could go to every session since I insisted on going to hers. I said yes, you are more than welcome to go, and I will let my counselor know they can talk to me just as they would if you weren't in the room. She said she wouldn't do that because she isn't a controlling ******* like me. Said she understands that my therapy is for me and that she’s not an as$hole and doesn't have to check up on me.

She said what I have done tonight is seriously damaged our marriage. She said I have hurt her more than she ever imagined I could. Said she was ashamed and disappointed in me. Said she regrets making the mistake of marrying me and then opening up to me. Says she is ashamed of herself too for making that mistake. She said I could have taken any other tact but I chose what was probably the most damaging. We talked until 200am. At the end, she called me a sanctimonious a$shole. Said this was about retribution not love and that I don't love her.

As we were lying in bed she said, “We are in a predicament now aren't we?” I asked what she meant. She said me with my ultimatum and she promising she will not be controlled by me.

Throughout the conversation when she would ask me what made me such an expert, or questioning why I am doing this, I would tell her that I am going based on our past 2 and a half years, and what she has said to me the last few days. She would then say the things she said the past few days weren’t what she meant. She said she has had time to think through her feelings and now she realizes she doesn’t ‘tune out’ or go someplace else in her head.

Said I need to think about a way to repair the damage I caused and how badly I've hurt her.


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## breathedeep

As usual, she left me questioning my own sanity and wondering whether she's right and I took the wrong approach.

There was more, here and there and in between, but again, it was a 5 hour discussion from 9:00pm to 2:00am so I only hit the ‘hilights’ here.

At this point I don't know where she stands on the counseling issue. This morning she sent me her passcode and told me the fingerprint lock on her phone could be bypassed.

She asked me for our new MC's phone number because she wants to set up an appointment immediately so that she can tell him what I've done, and so he can point out exactly how bad I have damaged our relationship.


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## anonmd

breathedeep said:


> As usual, she left me questioning my own sanity and wondering whether she's right and I took the wrong approach.
> 
> There was more, here and there and in between, but again, it was a 5 hour discussion from 9:00pm to 2:00am so I only hit the ‘hilights’ here.
> 
> At this point I don't know where she stands on the counseling issue. This morning she sent me her passcode and told me the fingerprint lock on her phone could be bypassed.
> 
> *She asked me for our new MC's phone number because she wants to set up an appointment immediately so that she can tell him what I've done, and so he can point out exactly how bad I have damaged our relationship.*


She should do that absolutely:wink2:


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## Uptown

> She left me questioning my own sanity and *wondering whether she's right and I took the wrong approach.*


For 99% of BPDers, _ALL APPROACHES_ will be unsuccessful. As long as you remain in the marriage, you will always be in a lose/lose predicament no matter what you do. If your W is a BPDer, she will tolerate your presence in the marriage only as long as you continue to walk on eggshells, taking blame for every misfortune to befall her. In that way, you are valuable to her because you continue to "validate" her false self image of being "The Victim."

Once you stand up to her and stop accepting the role of "The Perpetrator," you will stop harming her with your enabling behavior. That is, you will stop destroying her opportunities to have to confront her issues and deal with them (or suffer the logical consequences of not dealing with them). At the same time, however, you lose value because you are no longer validating her false self image. 

Again, I join the other members encouraging you to always have a VAR in your pocket because the situation may become very dangerous from this point forward. When I started enforcing my personal boundaries, my BPDer exW was so fearful I was going to abandon her that she immediately did it to me. She called the police and had me arrested on a bogus charge of "brutalizing" her. When I got out of jail 3 days later, I found she had obtained a R/O that prevented me from returning to my own home for 18 months (the time it takes to get a divorce in this State).


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## breathedeep

Uptown said:


> For 99% of BPDers, _ALL APPROACHES_ will be unsuccessful. As long as you remain in the marriage, you will always be in a lose/lose predicament no matter what you do. If your W is a BPDer, she will tolerate your presence in the marriage only as long as you continue to walk on eggshells, taking blame for every misfortune to befall her. In that way, you are valuable to her because you continue to "validate" her false self image of being "The Victim."
> 
> Once you stand up to her and stop accepting the role of "The Perpetrator," you will stop harming her with your enabling behavior. That is, you will stop destroying her opportunities to have to confront her issues and deal with them (or suffer the logical consequences of not dealing with them). At the same time, however, you lose value because you are no longer validating her false self image.
> 
> *Again, I join the other members encouraging you to always have a VAR in your pocket because the situation may become very dangerous from this point forward.* When I started enforcing my personal boundaries, my BPDer exW was so fearful I was going to abandon her that she immediately did it to me. She called the police and had me arrested on a bogus charge of "brutalizing" her. When I got out of jail 3 days later, I found she had obtained a R/O that prevented me from returning to my own home for 18 months (the time it takes to get a divorce in this State).


I started recording our conversations last Friday, or as often as I can because I realized what she is saying is so unbelievable some times, I need people to believe my side if the need ever arises.

I have to be honest; I didn't expect the level of attack and hate I saw in her eyes last night. It was truly Jekyll and Hyde. Before I told her what I needed, she was sweet, loving, affectionate. We were sitting on our bed facing each other and she had her hand on my knee. As soon as I set my boundary, the switch happened and it was all downhill from there.

And it is interesting that you mention their self image of being the victim. Almost anytime she and I get into an argument, she says I like to play the victim. I can't even count how many times she sarcastically called me a 'victim' last night.


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## Uptown

breathedeep said:


> She says I like to play the victim. I can't even count how many times she called me a 'victim' sarcastically last night.


If she were a narcissist or sociopath, that false accusation would constitute manipulation and "gaslighting," i.e., deliberate deception. If she is a BPDer, however, this accusation is called "projection" (as you well know by now). Because the projection occurs entirely in her subconscious, she will be fully convinced -- at a conscious level -- that it is true. In this way, her subconscious works 24/7 to protect her fragile ego from seeing too much of the painful reality.

Similarly, she will be absolutely convinced you are always trying to "control" her. The reality, however, is that it is the BPDer who is very controlling. It is her attempt to deal with her two fears of abandonment and engulfment, i.e., controlling you to prevent you from being so close that you engulf her or so far away that you abandon her.


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## ricky15100

Hicks said:


> You can go into her web or you can ask her to come out of if. Which do you think is a better approach?
> 
> Seems to me you are marching right into it.
> 
> Wives have all sorts of justifications for not being sexual. Too hot, too cold, too young, too old. They all have one thing in common: They seemingly cannot change and all wind up with the husband being asked "DO you want me to pretend to enjoy sex with you????????"
> 
> What you really ought to do is tell her that you expect a sexual marriage and that if there is something preventing her from being sexual you expect her to attempt to fix it through whatever means necessary if she wants to remain married.
> 
> Now, you better be giving her a reason to want to remain married.


Harsh, but straight to the point, nailed it!

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk


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## Blossom Leigh

You are seeing her true colors and make no mistake about it as you try to define yourself, she will rail against it. Her tirade was nothing but a very long winded attempt at controlling you to put you back in your place. To maintain the status quo. Problem is... the status quo is abusive, which is not sustainable. Thus she must face the piper. I understand Samrucks attachment idea, but attaching yourself to someone so abusive without their willingness to address the abuse is a very dangerous game to play. You risk losing YOUR OWN sanity in that process if you do not have a VERY firm grip on your self identity. So, he is right about how important it is to gain your self identity. That does not mean you still have to choose to attach that self identity to an abuser, regardless of why that abuse is there. See I come from the other side of the coin. Because I have trauma AND my husband has trauma, I refused to hold my husband hostage to my past trauma. He didn't put it there. Why should he pay the price for it. So, I chose to address my own trauma and my triggers have reduced significantly over time. When it came to his trauma, he was not quite so willing to work on his and when his anger hit an all time high and caused us to be terrified of him, I was done with the chaos and pain, it was affecting my health mentally, emotionally and physically. So, I expressed my limit because I don't want to be intimate with cruelty and emotional irresponsibility. My H in turn grew out of his inner turmoil. He is MUCH happier today and well balanced. He also gave his life to Christ during that time. So, my boundaries became the most loving thing I could have ever done in our marriage. Our intimacy is rich and we are intentional. 

So just another view...


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## samruck2

Well Breathedeep, this thread is quickly turning against your wife. The comments are cynical and show an inability to enter, sympathetically, into the mind of someone who has been sexually abused as a child. Your story of the argument last night could have been told by me before I entered my wife's world or 'web' as a commenter stated and disentangled her from her 'trauma-warped' perceptions. She had little ability to do this on her own in spite of what our 'empowerment' and western 'individualism' culture would like us to believe.

I know you are in pain. I know she is in pain. I'm deeply sorry for both of you and your children. If you want a different perspective, you know where to find me. I truly am sorry for where you both are right now.

Take care,

Sam


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## breathedeep

samruck2 said:


> Well Breathedeep, this thread is quickly turning against your wife. The comments are cynical and show an inability to enter, sympathetically, into the mind of someone who has been sexually abused as a child. Your story of the argument last night could have been told by me before I entered my wife's world or 'web' as a commenter stated and disentangled her from her 'trauma-warped' perceptions. She had little ability to do this on her own in spite of what our 'empowerment' and western 'individualism' culture would like us to believe.
> 
> I know you are in pain. I know she is in pain. I'm deeply sorry for both of you and your children. If you want a different perspective, you know where to find me. I truly am sorry for where you both are right now.
> 
> Take care,
> 
> Sam


Thank you Sam. Your comments here have been very helpful and have not gone unnoticed. Please know I am trying to work through this in the best way I can and as compassionately as I can, but I am only just now learning about this 'new reality' of my life and I am bound to make mistakes.

I am interested in all perspectives so that ultimately I can make that best and most compassionate choice, so you can count on hearing from me in the near future.


----------



## lifeistooshort

samruck2 said:


> Well Breathedeep, this thread is quickly turning against your wife. The comments are cynical and show an inability to enter, sympathetically, into the mind of someone who has been sexually abused as a child. Your story of the argument last night could have been told by me before I entered my wife's world or 'web' as a commenter stated and disentangled her from her 'trauma-warped' perceptions. She had little ability to do this on her own in spite of what our 'empowerment' and western 'individualism' culture would like us to believe.
> 
> I know you are in pain. I know she is in pain. I'm deeply sorry for both of you and your children. If you want a different perspective, you know where to find me. I truly am sorry for where you both are right now.
> 
> Take care,
> 
> Sam


TAM is like that unfortunately. It's full of angry bitters who double as armchair psychiatrists that can diagnose a whole host of disorders based on one party's internet posting.

I wonder if real psychiatrists realize their job is so easy? 

This path is either going to get him divorced or a very resentful wife. But what do I know, I'm just a CSA survivor. 

TAM claims to be pro marriage but it's full of crap..... divorce is pushed all the time here. 

Since OP has chosen the path of the angry bitters I'll leave him to it. But you know what? If I was his wife I'd go to some counseling and then never speak to him about my issues again. She's right in that how will he know if she's made progress? And I'd contemplate whether I want to be married to him but I wouldn't open up anymore.

He has valid reasons to leave, like her cheating. I get that. 
But with this issue, without honest communication he has nothing and he's ensured he will not have it.

I'm out now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

samruck2 said:


> Well Breathedeep, this thread is quickly turning against your wife. The comments are cynical and show an inability to enter, sympathetically, into the mind of someone who has been sexually abused as a child. Your story of the argument last night could have been told by me before I entered my wife's world or 'web' as a commenter stated and disentangled her from her 'trauma-warped' perceptions. She had little ability to do this on her own in spite of what our 'empowerment' and western 'individualism' culture would like us to believe.
> 
> I know you are in pain. I know she is in pain. I'm deeply sorry for both of you and your children. If you want a different perspective, you know where to find me. I truly am sorry for where you both are right now.
> 
> Take care,
> 
> Sam


The people commenting are hurt themselves, Sam. That is why they are so fixed on "setting boundaries" and providing "consequences" for their partners. It gives them a sense of control and makes them feel safe.

You have your healthy childhood to draw from. Many folks don't. So they borrow power from these external techniques. 

I think you are a saint, Sam. I really do. Your patience and commitment and love for your wife, in the face of her difficulties, are otherworldly. I know very few men who have the qualities to do what you have done with your wife. 

And that is why I hope you will continue to post on TAM. TAM is in desperate need of truly wise people, truly loving people. And you could be one of them.


----------



## Thor

breathedeep said:


> Is it cruel, selfish, or unsympathetic for me to bring this up in MC if she has not done so after a certain time?


It is data critical to the MC's ability to provide effective therapy. However I believe your wife will not react positively. She will probably leave MC. Or she may simply fail to comply with homework. She may actively undermine MC.

She will see it as blaming her for the ills of the marriage. She isn't ready to deal with the issue of the abuse nor of how it is affecting the marriage.

I think you can ask her if it is ok to bring up, but I would not bring it up out of the blue. Your other option is to have a private session with the MC and inform him of the CSA in that session. But this may be problematic. Most MCs won't keep secrets, which usually means if you told them you were cheating then the MC would not keep that secret from your spouse. In your case you would inform the MC of the CSA and then expect the MC to keep it secret that he knows.

More likely, I think the MC would come to the conclusion that there is no hope for the marriage until the CSA is effectively dealt with.

I don't see any reason for you two to be in MC unless she is making a genuine effort to deal with her CSA in IC.

Do you need someone to give you permission to leave the marriage? Do you need someone to tell you that you've done everything expected of a loving husband to help his wife and save his marriage? If so, yes you've done everything you should, and given her more than a fair chance to step up to her responsibilities. You would be within your rights and reason to leave the marriage at this point.


----------



## samruck2

I understand this was just dropped on you. It took me a couple years to figure things out and deal with the hurt, anger and pain in my heart from all the neglect and crap I had to endure because of my wife's d.i.d. So I'm not knocking you. But I'm unwilling to 'shout' against the direction that this thread is going. I've tried before elsewhere, and I accomplish nothing. So if in time you figure out who you are and what you want and if that includes helping your wife heal and keeping your family intact or whatever reasons YOU decide are important enough to you that will make you willing to endure the pain of traveling that healing journey with your wife, then you will always be welcome to look me up over on my blog or I have many people who email me privately.

I truly do wish you and her and your children the best.

Sam


----------



## tech-novelist

breathedeep said:


> In our current conversation, she has begrudgingly agreed to working on this. I keep saying she has to want to heal for her (I am using the statement Blossom used in Post #230). She has responded with this:
> 
> "You keep emphasizing the fact that it has to be for myself. I have to be honest and say that if you werent asking this of me, I likely wouldnt do this. I would continue working on coping with it, not trudging through it"
> 
> To me, this statement lets me know she isn't really ready to deal with this. What do you all see in this?


Dealing with problems like that is very difficult even when the person with the problem is intensely dedicated to solving the problem.

If they are just doing it because someone else wants them to do it, I can't see any good result.


----------



## samruck2

JLD,

I'm no saint, but thanks anyway. I'm sorry, but I just can't stay in a toxic place like this. What you have said about these people hurting themselves is all true, BUT part of staying with my wife means I endure searing heartache EVERY SINGLE DAY and it has been accumulating for nearly 28 years. It's nearly suffocating, but I love my wife and I am still hoping for a win/win solution. And all the pain means it's very hard for me to deal with the vitriol that I see here and other places I have been. Maybe someday if/when I get my wife thru this, I will feel strong enough to help others who are simply voicing their pain. But right now my own pain is so overwhelming I simply can't take on their pain too.

Take care,

Sam


----------



## tech-novelist

Why am I reminded of this scene?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkcKQmr7kRc

Oh, I know! Because this is exactly what you are doing!

She is doing you a great favor by showing that you have absolutely no possibility of a happy life with her.

That is your sign.


----------



## breathedeep

samruck2 said:


> JLD,
> 
> I'm no saint, but thanks anyway. I'm sorry, but I just can't stay in a toxic place like this. What you have said about these people hurting themselves is all true, BUT part of staying with my wife means I endure searing heartache EVERY SINGLE DAY and it has been accumulating for nearly 28 years. It's nearly suffocating, but I love my wife and I am still hoping for a win/win solution. And all the pain means it's very hard for me to deal with the vitriol that I see here and other places I have been. Maybe someday if/when I get my wife thru this, I will feel strong enough to help others who are simply voicing their pain. *But right now my own pain is so overwhelming I simply can't take on their pain too.*
> 
> Take care,
> 
> Sam


Very much understood.


----------



## Buddy400

breathedeep said:


> OK - so instead of verbalizing to her that she needs to do this for her, simply tell her what my boundaries are, and then allow her to make her own choice from there?


You feel uncomfortable with people doing things for you.

So you try to convince them that they should do it for themselves,

This deprives them of the pleasure on doing something for you.

Also, doing it for you may provide more motivation than doing it for themselves.

You don't like being vulnerable. This protects you. If you asked them to do something for you, and they didn't do it, you'd be hurt. You need to be brave enough to be vulnerable.


----------



## Thor

Sam, sorry but you're way off base. And that isn't vitriol towards you. I've been married for 33+ years to a CSA survivor and had zero success for 30 of those years because of having no boundaries. I am certainly not against OP's wife. I am for OP finding a way to be happy, for his children to be raised in a safe home, and for his wife to have as much happiness as is possible for her.

But if OP's wife is unwilling or unable to do the hard work of healing, there is no hope for improvement for anybody. And the status quo is no good for anybody, either.

So somethign has to be done to cause a new course of action.

Without qualified therapy, OP's wife will never improve. Never. Period. If OP can nudge her into therapy and doing the hard work via attachments, fine. But I personally know of no case where that has happened. What it takes is a motivation stronger than the fear of facing the trauma. I do know of CSA survivors who have made excellent progress through trauma therapy. Sometimes quickly, sometimes it takes a few years, sometimes it is a slow crawl over decades.

I also don't believe OP has a bigger obligation to her than she has to him. He has no obligation to take endless abuse while she doesn't take on her side of the obligation of bringing the healthiest her to the marriage. OP certainly has more obligation to his own children than to her.

At some point it becomes harmful to continue being an enabler when someone has a serious dysfunction. Boundaries can be an act of love, too.


----------



## Buddy400

breathedeep said:


> As usual, she left me questioning my own sanity and wondering whether she's right and I took the wrong approach.
> 
> There was more, here and there and in between, but again, it was a 5 hour discussion from 9:00pm to 2:00am so I only hit the ‘hilights’ here.
> 
> At this point I don't know where she stands on the counseling issue. This morning she sent me her passcode and told me the fingerprint lock on her phone could be bypassed.
> 
> She asked me for our new MC's phone number because she wants to set up an appointment immediately so that she can tell him what I've done, and so he can point out exactly how bad I have damaged our relationship.


If it was just you, then maybe you could get through this.

But, your kids are involved, so you don't have that choice.


----------



## turnera

breathedeep said:


> Had a 5 hour discussion with my wife last night. Well, I think it would be better categorized as us having a 5 minute discussion followed by 4 hours and 55 minutes of her swearing, yelling, and calling me names. I wrote most of what follows last night so my memory of the events were still fresh.
> 
> This one is long, so you might want to grab a cup of coffee and a seat. I apologize in advance for the length.
> 
> Everything started out ok. During the day we had been talking about how we were ready to do what we needed to do to have a successful marriage and a healthy relationship, so we started our conversation there, talking about how we know the process is going to be long and difficult, but reassuring each other that we were committed. She asked me what the process looked like from my perspective and what I needed from her. I told her that for me to be able to stay in the marriage, she would have to find a counselor that specializes in CSA. I told her that I would be there with her every step and that I would be going to my own counseling for my childhood abuse.
> 
> This is where it turned bad. She said I didn’t know what i was asking of her. She called me a selfish ******* and said I was using her marriage against her. She said I was forcing her to do something and using our marriage to control her. I told her I wasn’t giving her an ultimatum or forcing her. She said yes you are, you are leaving me no choice but to live by your rules or you will divorce me. I told her i was not telling her what she had to do, but i am telling her what I need to stay in this marriage. She said that is an ultimatum. I said it is a boundary. She said I could take my boundaries and books and shove them up my ass. She said she would not allow me to give her an ultimatum and would not allow me to control her. She said I was using what she told me the other day when she opened up against her. She said I was being cruel and she didn't deserve this. By this point she was yelling and swearing at me, calling me a selfish a-hole, saying I am despicable for doing this to her, etc… I had to ask her to calm down several times so that we could have a discussion, and that her yelling and swearing at me was not us having a discussion. She said I was treating her like a child.
> 
> She said she couldn't believe I was destroying our marriage and treating her this way over sex and that I was severely over reacting.
> 
> She reiterated that she could never trust me again and that I have ruined our relationship by giving her a bull$hit ultimatum. She said that she would never open up to me again because she gets punished. She said I am just like all the other men, especially her ex-husband.
> 
> She said I was using her vulnerability to control her and make her do what I want. Said I was doing this out of selfishness and my ridiculous need for sex, and not from a place of love and compassion. She said that no person who supposedly loved someone would ask such a thing of them.
> 
> She said she wouldn't go to counseling on my terms. I told her I wasn't giving her terms, that I was only telling her what I needed to stay in this relationship. She said she hoped I realize how dangerous this path was that i am leading them down. She said I was not going to tell her how long she had to go. She asked me if I'd even know what her getting better would look like. She asked me how I would know when she was healthy and ready to stop going. She said she was going to have to live day to day in fear that her ‘recovery’ wasn't good enough for me and that I would be gone when she came home. She asked me when I became such an expert on CSA to feel qualified to tell her she needs to get help.
> 
> She said her sexual abuse wasn't the reason for any of her problems and that I would be wasting our time and money with my bull$hit ultimatums. Said the real issue here is the abuse she suffered from her ex-husband. She said unequivocally I could not go with her and that time was for her and no counselor would allow me to go anyway. She said me insisting on going is just another way I am trying to control her. She said if I did go, she wouldn't be able to open up to the counselor so it would be a waste of time and the only reason I want to go is so I can take notes and make sure she's on task and not faking a recovery.
> 
> She said I don't know anything about CSA and I have no right to be issuing ultimatums after reading a few books. I told her this is not about my expertise on CSA. It is about her behavior towards me and that I am no longer willing to accept the way she treats me and that seeing the counselor about the CSA is the first step. She reiterated that the sexual abuse has nothing to do with this and that it actually plays little to no part in our relationship at all. Of course I argued that she said otherwise the previous four or five days, and that she even admitted that she couldn’t trust anyone because of her sexual abuse, and that trust was one of the main factors in a relationship. She the admitted again that she couldn’t trust because of what happened, but that was the only way what happened affects us.
> 
> She asked me what other ultimatums I have for her. I told her I need her to unlock her phone. She got very defensive. She said she could not take the fingerprint lock off, that it is part of the phones built in security. When I said she could turn it off, she said she wouldn't do it because she has to keep her kids out. She then said this is just another way I am trying to control her. She said I am really starting to show my true colors and that she doesn't even know who I am anymore. She said she doesn't like this person I've become and that my books and articles have ruined our marriage. She asked me what I am insinuating by asking her to unlock her phone and said me asking that shows I have serious trust issues and If I need to snoop through her phone we are already too far gone. I reminded her that she has cheated on me and her ex in the past. She asked me when I was going to forgive her for that. She said she has apologized and I have no right to keep holding it over her head. She said that is no way to be in a relationship and since we are setting boundaries, there, that's hers. She said she cannot live with another person who is always suspicious of her. She reiterated that she doesn't know who I am or who I've become and me reading some stupid books doesn't make me an expert on boundaries and CSA. She said that her experience is completely different so I have made a serious mistake trying to put her into some category I read in a book or article.
> 
> She said all of this is my fault. Said this wasn't about us or her getting help, but it was about me being a despicable *******. She said she wasn't the one with the problem here. Said this is my problem and that she was fine. She asked me what I was going to do to fix us. I told her I would be going to counseling too. She asked if she could go to every session since I insisted on going to hers. I said yes, you are more than welcome to go, and I will let my counselor know they can talk to me just as they would if you weren't in the room. She said she wouldn't do that because she isn't a controlling ******* like me. Said she understands that my therapy is for me and that she’s not an as$hole and doesn't have to check up on me.
> 
> She said what I have done tonight is seriously damaged our marriage. She said I have hurt her more than she ever imagined I could. Said she was ashamed and disappointed in me. Said she regrets making the mistake of marrying me and then opening up to me. Says she is ashamed of herself too for making that mistake. She said I could have taken any other tact but I chose what was probably the most damaging. We talked until 200am. At the end, she called me a sanctimonious a$shole. Said this was about retribution not love and that I don't love her.
> 
> As we were lying in bed she said, “We are in a predicament now aren't we?” I asked what she meant. She said me with my ultimatum and she promising she will not be controlled by me.
> 
> Throughout the conversation when she would ask me what made me such an expert, or questioning why I am doing this, I would tell her that I am going based on our past 2 and a half years, and what she has said to me the last few days. She would then say the things she said the past few days weren’t what she meant. She said she has had time to think through her feelings and now she realizes she doesn’t ‘tune out’ or go someplace else in her head.
> 
> Said I need to think about a way to repair the damage I caused and how badly I've hurt her.


meh, this is nothing new and completely to be expected. This is EXACTLY what CSAs go through when they are forced to confront their issues - become terrified. Absolutely, unequivocably terrified. Fear is what drives all of us, ok? Fear of judgment, abandonment, being used, whatever. And CSA - and BPDs - have no way of filtering that fear other than to lash out and try to RUIN everyone around them...all to avoid facing the CSA.

Don't take what she said personally. She simply can't deal with the terror of being 'discovered to be unworthy' - as THAT is her closely guarded secret, that she doesn't deserve to live, or be loved, or have dreams. Remember the toxic shame. Every minute of every day is affected by that toxic shame and her ultimate goal of never ever ever letting anyone see the real, disgusting 'her.'

Of course this is all rubbish. YOU know, WE know, the therapist will know this isn't reality. She's the only one who can't see it. And so she does the only thing she knows how to do - push you away to protect herself.

Just give her time. And drop the subject, and hope that she attends MC, where you can bring it up.


----------



## turnera

breathedeep said:


> As usual, she left me questioning my own sanity and wondering whether she's right and I took the wrong approach.
> 
> There was more, here and there and in between, but again, it was a 5 hour discussion from 9:00pm to 2:00am so I only hit the ‘hilights’ here.
> 
> At this point I don't know where she stands on the counseling issue. This morning she sent me her passcode and told me the fingerprint lock on her phone could be bypassed.
> 
> She asked me for our new MC's phone number because she wants to set up an appointment immediately so that she can tell him what I've done, and so he can point out exactly how bad I have damaged our relationship.


Great that she sent you the passcode. It means she doesn't REALLY want to walk away. 

And don't worry about the 'threat' to tell on you. The only thing I would say is, since the MC is also your therapist, you're allowed to tell him/her about the CSA so that when she does go in there to 'force' you to back off, the MC will finally understand WHY.

btw, the reason I said to go with her to her therapy is that I once tried to get my IC/our MC to deal with something my H did, but she told me that, unless I bring it up in front of her AND him, she's not allowed to use that as part of her therapy for him; she can't bring it up unless I say it out loud in front of the two of them, then it becomes public record, so to speak. So if you tell the MC about the CSA, it will help the MC not scare her off, but she won't be able to treat her for it unless you bring it up in a session together.

Note I am NOT telling you to crash her private session. That _would_ seem controlling.


----------



## turnera

samruck2 said:


> Well Breathedeep, this thread is quickly turning against your wife. The comments are cynical and show an inability to enter, sympathetically, into the mind of someone who has been sexually abused as a child.


No, we are NOT 'turning against' his wife. We are trying to show him how she can be helped. By not spending the rest of his life enabling her to avoid her pain.

And I am 100% sympathetic to her, coming from a similar background, and I know that the ONLY way she can find peace is through therapy. 

But since she was refusing IC, and since we wanted to help him help her, instituting a boundary is the only way to accomplish that.

The ONLY thing that could happen if he 'goes into her cocoon is that she will settle down, pretend it never happened, and revert to her abuse of him and avoidance of herself. And none of them - her, him, OR the kids - should be subjected to that.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> meh, this is nothing new and completely to be expected. This is EXACTLY what CSAs go through when they are forced to confront their issues - become terrified. Absolutely, unequivocably terrified. Fear is what drives all of us, ok? Fear of judgment, abandonment, being used, whatever. And CSA - and BPDs - have no way of filtering that fear other than to lash out and try to RUIN everyone around them...all to avoid facing the CSA.
> 
> Don't take what she said personally. She simply can't deal with the terror of being 'discovered to be unworthy' - as THAT is her closely guarded secret, that she doesn't deserve to live, or be loved, or have dreams. Remember the toxic shame. Every minute of every day is affected by that toxic shame and her ultimate goal of never ever ever letting anyone see the real, disgusting 'her.'
> 
> Of course this is all rubbish. YOU know, WE know, the therapist will know this isn't reality. She's the only one who can't see it. And so she does the only thing she knows how to do - push you away to protect herself.
> 
> Just give her time. And drop the subject, and hope that she attends MC, where you can bring it up.


Timely T...



*Shame - the Deadly Fear of Exposure*


I still cringe when my grandfather's words echo in my head, "You know you wanted it." Um, No! I DIDN'T want it - the chronic sexual abuse that I suffered from that predator - but still, those words and what they imply have always made me shudder.


The dream-like memories that form after sexual trauma and abuse are difficult to understand - are difficult to make sense of. When you add victim blaming and shaming on top of that trauma, it can feel like you're losing your mind. That's because sexual predators are master manipulators. They know exactly what they're doing. They know how to set up their victims, groom and control them, exploit their vulnerabilities, and then they flip the truth around.



Most survivors carry a secret fear that others assume they did something to invite the sexual trauma. You hear it all the time when rape and sexual abuse are discussed. What were they wearing? Who were they with? What were they doing? Were they under the drinking or using drugs? Every time a survivor hears such questions, a horrible sense that who they are and what they experienced are also going to be called into question. 



This is compounded when survivors have confusing and often contradicting experiences surrounding the assault. Perhaps you felt sexual arousal or even pleasure. That's pretty common. Perhaps you were paid or rewarded with gifts, food, or privileges. That's how they get victims to think they complied. Perhaps you were out to have a good time and someone took advantage of that to gratify themselves and disregard your dignity. These are all fuel for false shame and the fear of being exposed and judged.



The many sensations and experiences that exist concurrently with sexual exploitation - arousal, receiving rewards, or trying to have a good time - get twisted in your mind. It becomes intertwined and tangled to the point that you struggle to separate being victimized from the other parts of the experience. This is when false shame and blame invade your thinking.



The specifics of what happened to you are often embarrassing, humiliating, and disturbing. The distrust we have of how others will view our victimization amplifies shame because, at its most basic level, we fear that we will be exposed and judged. BUT here is what you MUST understand: the shame that is exposed is NOT yours. It is on those who preyed upon you and those who stood by and did nothing to help you. 



Recovery after such experiences is like coming out of a fog. You hear nonsense victim blaming and shaming and begin to recognize it as such. The words and actions of predators and passive bystanders become clearer and you see the set up, the exploitation of your vulnerabilities, and the head-games they played. 



You turn a big corner when you start to unpack your secret fears and realize that the shame you might feel is NOT because of something you did. It's because of something they did. You've probably seen the info-graphic: 100% of rapes are caused by rapists. There's nothing to add to that. 100% of sexual assault is caused by predators seeking to gratify only themselves. Yes, there is shame, but the ones who should be afraid of exposure* are the ones who bear that shame - the ones who exploited and betrayed you.




* While shame and guilt do belong to predators, at no time should you feel the need to disclose or share your deeply personal experiences if you are not comfortable to do so or if you are not in a safe environment.




Written by Sallie Culbreth

© 2016 STAARR - Sexual Trauma and Abuse Recovery Resources (formerly Committed to Freedom)


----------



## breathedeep

Our current conversation via messenger. I'm posting in full so you can see and point out any mistakes I've made and hopefully I can learn better techniques.

Wife: I am so sad

me: I know
me: I'm sorry

Wife: I cant express how sorry I am
Wife: I feel horribly

Me: About what?

Wife: how Ive treated you
Wife: what I said on sunday about you finding someone else

Me: I am confused
Me: Is this separate from last night?

Wife: not really, its all the same thing that has been going on
Wife: same topic/issue
Wife: is it not
Wife: ?

Me: I'm just confused because of your response last night. You were very adamant about not being sorry.
Me: So I am trying to reconcile the two things now

Wife: I never said I wasnt sorry. In fact, Ive been saying so repeatedly
Wife: Last night I was upset about the ultimatum
Wife: I felt that it wasnt fair

Me: Either way, I forgive you for saying that to me
Me: I went about what I was saying the wrong way
Me: I am not good at execution.
Me: And your response to me was so vehement and aggressive, it threw me off guard.
Me: You actually scared me last night.

Wife: I dont know how else to say this, an ultimatum is absolutely the most unkind thing to deliver to someone you care about and want to trust you. I felt betrayed last night. I was stunned. You were not the man Ive known.
Wife: You were threatening to take my family away from me. 
Wife: You scared me to

Me: I see things a different way, but I am willing to come at this from a slightly different perspective.

Wife: I realize you might see things differently but this is one of those times that you need to put yourself in someone else's shoes.

Me: I have and I am, and I still come to the same conclusion

Wife: I dont know what else to say
Wife: if you cant see things from my perspective, there isnt anything else I can say
Wife: I am still stunned that you think that was a perfectly fine way to handle a situation with someone you love

Me: I am not giving you an ultimatum. I am telling you that your behavior hurts me, and I need you to get help for the way you treat me. I am also telling you that sex is a huge part of marriage, and from what you've told me the past five days, our sex life is not healthy. I have a part in our sex life not being healthy, but your do too, as you have admitted. And a big part of that is due to your sexual abuse. I need a healthy sex life with my wife, and you getting help for your sexual abuse is a big part of us having a healthy sex life.
Me: I cannot live like I have been living. I cannot live with you treating me the way you have been
Me: The only way I can see that changing is for you to see a therapist about these issues.

Wife: and I agreed to that Sunday night and again yesterday. 

Me: Then we are in agreement

Wife: Before you had even come home

Me: No ultimatums. No timelines
Me: I am sorry that I came at you with the wrong approach
Me: I made a mistake there
Me: And I recognize that.

Wife: thank you. I can do all of that as long as you arent holding my marriage over my head or keeping some sort of measurement of where you think I ought to be. Do you even know what it is you think should be different with us sexually? I am concerned that you now have expectations of me and how I should or should not act

Me: I would like for us to work towards a place where you don't have to feel like you have to act to please me.
Me: Where you don't have to put your mind somewhere else.
Me: To a place where you allow yourself to feel your body.

Wife: This isnt just about me. Your performance concerns are front and center for you and it also keeps you from connecting with me
Wife: You are also somewhere else essentially. And Im aware that youve said that its me but Im not sure thats entirely it. Youve also said before that youve had problems like this before.

Me: I will work through my issues just like I am asking you to do with yours.

Wife: If I have things that need to change then you do as well. Part of my reaction to you is based on the things you say and do.

Me: You seem to be missing all of the times that I have said that I know I have a part in this too. And that I am ready to do what I need to do .

Wife: No I havent missed it. The conversation has been all about me though. There has been no discussion about you other than to make that statement and thats it.

Me: I keep asking you, "What about me.. What about me?"
Me: Your response has been nothing
Me: Except that you are not an a$hole like me
Me: So you aren't giving me ultimatums.
Me: And that isn't a helpful response
Me: So I have tried to steer the conversation in a direction that we can talk about what I can do to be better.
Me: You have refused to engage in that discussion.

Wife: I havent. Sunday the discussion was about me and what has been going on with me. Last night was about me again and your expectations. Other than to say that you will be getting help as well, there was no discussion about that. It had nothing to do with me refusing because there was no opportunity. Making statements like that as well as throwing things Ive said in my face arent helpful either.

Me: You would barely let me talk last night. You would ask me a question and then I would try to answer, and you would talk all over my answer. So you had plenty of time to talk about me. Also, I did continue to ask you, "What can I do? What do I need to do?" You would ignore the questions and go right back on the defensive about yourself when I was clearly trying to talk about things I could do.

Wife: well then I apologize. I was terribly hurt by what you said to me last night.
Wife: I dont know how you can expect me to follow the course of conversation you want when you hurt me like you did.
Wife: I wanted you to see how hurtful what you did was to me but I was only getting cold unconcerned responses from you which was even more hurtful.

Me: It's not cold and unconcerned. It is me doing my best to keep control of my emotions while you are yelling at me, calling me names, swearing at me, saying hateful things to me, and generally being abusive while we are "Supposed" to be having an adult conversation. I have to almost lock down my emotions so that I do not react to your behavior in the same way you are treating me at the time.

Wife: and before it got to that point? 

Me: Before it got to that point, we were having a decent conversation. You cannot tell me I am cold and uncaring before you start raising your voice with me. I go into it hoping we can have a productive conversation this time, despite how I know they typically end up in the past.

Wife: Im sorry but I felt you were.
Wife: That is exactly why I got upset.
Wife: I realize I handled things badly last night but I cannot accept the entire blame for what happened. 

Me: You have said you got upset because you perceived I gave you an ultimatum.
Me: You get very upset at me if I do not react to your anger and aggression towards me
Me: It's almost like you keep pushing me on purpose just to get me to react.

Wife: That isnt what Im thinking at all. I got upset at your ultimatum. We were discussing it and I was trying to get you to see my point of view and you were very matter of fact and had what I took as a tough **** attitude in regards to how I felt. You said several things like, "thats just the way I feel." "I dont see it that way" "I dont agree with you", all of which are statements that tell me you didnt care about my feelings. Your cold and uncaring responses to me when I was trying to explain how it made me feel is what upset me. There was no intent on pushing you or trying to provoke you. I wanted you to demonstrate that you cared about me. To stop being so cold. I think you like to push a lot of this onto me like its all so calculated and its all me but you are not seeing how your behavior plays directly into this. I was pleading with you to understand my feelings and you would not. My mistake was that when you refused to show any caring toward me, I should have stopped. I just should have walked away. I just wanted you to care, thats it.

Wife: Ive said it so many times before. I just want your approval, your love, your caring.

Me: I am talking about in the past, when you keep escalating, and escalating and telling me how cold and uncaring I am. Then you swear at me, call me names, etc... I'm saying I feel
like you escalate so that I will show you what you need, which would prove that I am caring.

Me: And I have to keep my responses like that once you become verbally abusive so that I don't say the wrong things.

Me: I know that once you go into that mode, it is best for me to say as little as possible because we are past the point of having a discussion.

Wife: Why is it you dont want to show me you care in those situations?

Me: And I've said many times that I do approve of you, and I do love you.

Wife: I know you have and I appreciate every time you do. But when we are having difficult discussions, why cant you show me then. Before escalation?

Me: I do want to show you I care, but you have to keep in mind, you are screaming at me, yelling, and it is all I can do just to keep my temper down. I keep trying to tell you, if you could calm yourself down and have a civil conversation, I could easily come back, but while you are so very angry, I have to take a step back emotionally until you can calm down.

Me: I do try before it gets to that point.
Me: I have said before, "I love you and I do not want to leave you, but..."
Me: Or whatever the topic is.

Wife: I keep asking this, BEFORE things escalate, why can you not show me that you care? The statement you said you used above is a very recent thing and I can only remember you saying maybe 2-3 times. You also did not start our conversation out that way last night. I have to say, that doesnt demonstrate caring per se. What demonstrates caring to me is hearing what Im saying, even if you dont agree try to understand what Im saying, try to show that you are concerned about my point of view. You keep trying to point to the escalation and skip over what is causing it. 

Wife: When we have difficult discussions you are not willing at the time to ever come off your opinion or position. You dig your heels in and have a tough $h*t attitude toward me. That is what upsets me. I want to be understood. 

Wife: I recognize that I am handling it all wrong, that I have to find another way to handle the way you respond to me. I cannot explain it any other way than to say that when you dont try to understand me, empathize with me and are cold with me I feel ignored, unloved and it pushes me into a fear response that you must not love me or you wouldnt do that. At the core of all of this is my fear of you not loving me, you leaving me, that I am not good enough in your eyes. Im sorry that I need that reassurance so much from you.


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## Blossom Leigh

" I wanted you to demonstrate that you cared about me. "

Fear of abandonment

She is consumed by that.

To the point that she is blind to what you are asking of her. What you are asking of her is FOR her not against her. You are giving her fair shot at addressing it. 

"Take it or leave it"

There is no justification for abuse and she admitted she's "handling it all wrong way" and doesn't even deny it, only blames you. Just keep on the path breathedeep. Refine your approach, but stay on the path.


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## Thor

Blame shifting and avoidance is what I see. This goes back to what Turnera and Blossom posted today, and what I hinted at in one of my posts. Your wife is still trying to avoid really doing the work. She is trying to appear as if she wants to look at how to improve the marriage, but she always twists it back to you being at fault. Either you are being unreasonable in giving an ultimatum, thus twisting her arm and holding her family hostage, or you are at fault for your side of the issues.

Everything you've posted is something I've seen from my wife, btw.

CSA survivors' deepest fear is _it is true_. What might be true? That they are unlovable, dirty, damaged and undesirable. Her second deepest fear is if you only knew the truth about her, you'd discard her in an instant.

If she can avoid therapy and get back to status quo, she can go back to hiding from these fears. Status quo requires you happily having sex with her as you did before. Status quo requires not talking about her CSA, and definitely not bringing it up in therapy.

My wife made any mention of her CSA a divorce level infraction. Has anything changed? Nope.

You're on the right track with her, but I'd keep the conversations much shorter. Read the book "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" for some outstanding verbal tools for these situations.


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## Annie123

These conversations sound so familiar. No CSA in my H's case but everything you say your wife says or does is almost identical to what I go through with my husband. 

All I can say is, I understand what you're going through and I really hope things will change for the better. In my case, they haven't and I don't think they will. I hear all sorts of promises all the time. He'll say anything he thinks I want to hear just to calm me down at that moment. And that's where it stops. All promises stop at that moment and nothing is ever done. 

It's exhausting, hours and hours of putting you down, yelling, name calling and then throwing the 'that's not what I said' or 'that's now what I meant' statement to make you feel crazy. 'I didn't say you were stupid, I said you were ACTING like you're stupid.' 'I didn't call you retarded! I only said things you were saying made you sound retarded' etc.

And projecting, blaming, shaming, guilt tripping... It eats your soul away, man. I know you want to help her and that's very noble of you. I'm just asking you to be aware of the possibility that her behaviors may never change. Even if she gets the right kind of help. 
Please take care of yourself and your kids. Don't let it last forever.

My H would stop drinking for weeks and I'd think 'yes! I'm seeing some real progress, we're heading in the right direction, there IS hope for us after all!' and then he'd come home drunk one day. OK, let's start over.

He'd promise he won't spend as much and would do great for a few weeks but then he'd just go back to the way he was.

Intimacy? It has never started again after it stopped almost 20 months ago, but he says it will start any day now.

Yelling and name calling... you know, he's doing his best but I push his buttons. So if I just stopped pushing his buttons, he'd stop lashing out at me. But nevermind the fact that me pushing his buttons is something he IMAGINES. He wants to see it that way so that he has an excuse to lash out. It's never his fault. 

All I'm saying... she says she will change? Ask for consistency. No timeline? I wouldn't accept that. My H asks for the same thing. You're not going to give her a timeline to finish the process, only to start it and get to the point that you see that she's trying FOR REAL. And not that she's just doing enough to shut you up.

My husband says 'I'm not perfect and you can't expect me to be perfect' when I tell him I won't tolerate the abuse. I try to tell him that being imperfect is leaving your dirty laundry around the apartment, not cleaning after yourself, etc. But choosing to insult and abuse the person you claim to love the most is not a sign of imperfection, it's a choice they make. 

I'm sorry for the long post. Just be careful and try to protect yourself and your kids as much as you can. And good luck!


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## farsidejunky

Let her go.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

breathedeep said:


> As usual, she left me questioning my own sanity and wondering whether she's right and I took the wrong approach.
> 
> There was more, here and there and in between, but again, it was a 5 hour discussion from 9:00pm to 2:00am so I only hit the ‘hilights’ here.
> 
> At this point I don't know where she stands on the counseling issue. This morning she sent me her passcode and told me the fingerprint lock on her phone could be bypassed.
> 
> She asked me for our new MC's phone number because she wants to set up an appointment immediately so that she can tell him what I've done, and so he can point out exactly how bad I have damaged our relationship.


You are not wrong.

She is gas lighting the hell out of you.

Stand by your damn principles, or drown in her madness. Those are your only two options.

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## breathedeep

farsidejunky said:


> You are not wrong.
> 
> *She is gas lighting the hell out of you.
> *
> Stand by your damn principles, or drown in her madness. Those are your only two options.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I have been getting this feeling for some time now. This is why I have resorted to documenting and recording our conversations. She will say one thing one day, and then the next day say she didn't say it, or that she didn't mean what she said and that she is allowed to change her mind. I have recordings where she will say one thing and the next day deny it altogether.

And yes, I know it is terrible that I am having to resort to this, but I feel at this point it is for my safety and sanity.


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## farsidejunky

samruck2 said:


> Well Breathedeep, this thread is quickly turning against your wife. The comments are cynical and show an inability to enter, sympathetically, into the mind of someone who has been sexually abused as a child. Your story of the argument last night could have been told by me before I entered my wife's world or 'web' as a commenter stated and disentangled her from her 'trauma-warped' perceptions. She had little ability to do this on her own in spite of what our 'empowerment' and western 'individualism' culture would like us to believe.
> 
> I know you are in pain. I know she is in pain. I'm deeply sorry for both of you and your children. If you want a different perspective, you know where to find me. I truly am sorry for where you both are right now.
> 
> Take care,
> 
> Sam


It has nothing to do with sympathy. It has everything to do with how easy it is to drown while you yourself are trying to save someone who is drowning.

If you don't have a very clear picture of who you are and what you will accept, which the OP does not, a BPD'er will destroy you.

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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> It has nothing to do with sympathy. It has everything to do with how easy it is to drown while you yourself are trying to save someone who is drowning.
> 
> If you don't have a very clear picture of who you are and what you will accept, which the AP does not, a BPD'er will destroy you.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I think Sam was willing to try to help breathedeep develop that.

Have you read Sam's blog, far?


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## farsidejunky

breathedeep said:


> Our current conversation via messenger. I'm posting in full so you can see and point out any mistakes I've made and hopefully I can learn better techniques.
> 
> Wife: I am so sad
> 
> me: I know
> me: I'm sorry
> 
> Wife: I cant express how sorry I am
> Wife: I feel horribly
> 
> Me: About what?
> 
> Wife: how Ive treated you
> Wife: what I said on sunday about you finding someone else
> 
> Me: I am confused
> Me: Is this separate from last night?
> 
> Wife: not really, its all the same thing that has been going on
> Wife: same topic/issue
> Wife: is it not
> Wife: ?
> 
> Me: I'm just confused because of your response last night. You were very adamant about not being sorry.
> Me: So I am trying to reconcile the two things now
> 
> Wife: I never said I wasnt sorry. In fact, Ive been saying so repeatedly
> Wife: Last night I was upset about the ultimatum
> Wife: I felt that it wasnt fair
> 
> Me: Either way, I forgive you for saying that to me
> Me: I went about what I was saying the wrong way
> Me: I am not good at execution.
> Me: And your response to me was so vehement and aggressive, it threw me off guard.
> Me: You actually scared me last night.
> 
> Wife: I dont know how else to say this, an ultimatum is absolutely the most unkind thing to deliver to someone you care about and want to trust you. I felt betrayed last night. I was stunned. You were not the man Ive known.
> Wife: You were threatening to take my family away from me.
> Wife: You scared me to
> 
> Me: I see things a different way, but I am willing to come at this from a slightly different perspective.
> 
> Wife: I realize you might see things differently but this is one of those times that you need to put yourself in someone else's shoes.
> 
> Me: I have and I am, and I still come to the same conclusion
> 
> Wife: I dont know what else to say
> Wife: if you cant see things from my perspective, there isnt anything else I can say
> Wife: I am still stunned that you think that was a perfectly fine way to handle a situation with someone you love
> 
> Me: I am not giving you an ultimatum. I am telling you that your behavior hurts me, and I need you to get help for the way you treat me. I am also telling you that sex is a huge part of marriage, and from what you've told me the past five days, our sex life is not healthy. I have a part in our sex life not being healthy, but your do too, as you have admitted. And a big part of that is due to your sexual abuse. I need a healthy sex life with my wife, and you getting help for your sexual abuse is a big part of us having a healthy sex life.
> Me: I cannot live like I have been living. I cannot live with you treating me the way you have been
> Me: The only way I can see that changing is for you to see a therapist about these issues.
> 
> Wife: and I agreed to that Sunday night and again yesterday.
> 
> Me: Then we are in agreement
> 
> Wife: Before you had even come home
> 
> Me: No ultimatums. No timelines
> Me: I am sorry that I came at you with the wrong approach
> Me: I made a mistake there
> Me: And I recognize that.
> 
> Wife: thank you. I can do all of that as long as you arent holding my marriage over my head or keeping some sort of measurement of where you think I ought to be. Do you even know what it is you think should be different with us sexually? I am concerned that you now have expectations of me and how I should or should not act
> 
> Me: I would like for us to work towards a place where you don't have to feel like you have to act to please me.
> Me: Where you don't have to put your mind somewhere else.
> Me: To a place where you allow yourself to feel your body.
> 
> Wife: This isnt just about me. Your performance concerns are front and center for you and it also keeps you from connecting with me
> Wife: You are also somewhere else essentially. And Im aware that youve said that its me but Im not sure thats entirely it. Youve also said before that youve had problems like this before.
> 
> Me: I will work through my issues just like I am asking you to do with yours.
> 
> Wife: If I have things that need to change then you do as well. Part of my reaction to you is based on the things you say and do.
> 
> Me: You seem to be missing all of the times that I have said that I know I have a part in this too. And that I am ready to do what I need to do .
> 
> Wife: No I havent missed it. The conversation has been all about me though. There has been no discussion about you other than to make that statement and thats it.
> 
> Me: I keep asking you, "What about me.. What about me?"
> Me: Your response has been nothing
> Me: Except that you are not an a$hole like me
> Me: So you aren't giving me ultimatums.
> Me: And that isn't a helpful response
> Me: So I have tried to steer the conversation in a direction that we can talk about what I can do to be better.
> Me: You have refused to engage in that discussion.
> 
> Wife: I havent. Sunday the discussion was about me and what has been going on with me. Last night was about me again and your expectations. Other than to say that you will be getting help as well, there was no discussion about that. It had nothing to do with me refusing because there was no opportunity. Making statements like that as well as throwing things Ive said in my face arent helpful either.
> 
> Me: You would barely let me talk last night. You would ask me a question and then I would try to answer, and you would talk all over my answer. So you had plenty of time to talk about me. Also, I did continue to ask you, "What can I do? What do I need to do?" You would ignore the questions and go right back on the defensive about yourself when I was clearly trying to talk about things I could do.
> 
> Wife: well then I apologize. I was terribly hurt by what you said to me last night.
> Wife: I dont know how you can expect me to follow the course of conversation you want when you hurt me like you did.
> Wife: I wanted you to see how hurtful what you did was to me but I was only getting cold unconcerned responses from you which was even more hurtful.
> 
> Me: It's not cold and unconcerned. It is me doing my best to keep control of my emotions while you are yelling at me, calling me names, swearing at me, saying hateful things to me, and generally being abusive while we are "Supposed" to be having an adult conversation. I have to almost lock down my emotions so that I do not react to your behavior in the same way you are treating me at the time.
> 
> Wife: and before it got to that point?
> 
> Me: Before it got to that point, we were having a decent conversation. You cannot tell me I am cold and uncaring before you start raising your voice with me. I go into it hoping we can have a productive conversation this time, despite how I know they typically end up in the past.
> 
> Wife: Im sorry but I felt you were.
> Wife: That is exactly why I got upset.
> Wife: I realize I handled things badly last night but I cannot accept the entire blame for what happened.
> 
> Me: You have said you got upset because you perceived I gave you an ultimatum.
> Me: You get very upset at me if I do not react to your anger and aggression towards me
> Me: It's almost like you keep pushing me on purpose just to get me to react.
> 
> Wife: That isnt what Im thinking at all. I got upset at your ultimatum. We were discussing it and I was trying to get you to see my point of view and you were very matter of fact and had what I took as a tough **** attitude in regards to how I felt. You said several things like, "thats just the way I feel." "I dont see it that way" "I dont agree with you", all of which are statements that tell me you didnt care about my feelings. Your cold and uncaring responses to me when I was trying to explain how it made me feel is what upset me. There was no intent on pushing you or trying to provoke you. I wanted you to demonstrate that you cared about me. To stop being so cold. I think you like to push a lot of this onto me like its all so calculated and its all me but you are not seeing how your behavior plays directly into this. I was pleading with you to understand my feelings and you would not. My mistake was that when you refused to show any caring toward me, I should have stopped. I just should have walked away. I just wanted you to care, thats it.
> 
> Wife: Ive said it so many times before. I just want your approval, your love, your caring.
> 
> Me: I am talking about in the past, when you keep escalating, and escalating and telling me how cold and uncaring I am. Then you swear at me, call me names, etc... I'm saying I feel
> like you escalate so that I will show you what you need, which would prove that I am caring.
> 
> Me: And I have to keep my responses like that once you become verbally abusive so that I don't say the wrong things.
> 
> Me: I know that once you go into that mode, it is best for me to say as little as possible because we are past the point of having a discussion.
> 
> Wife: Why is it you dont want to show me you care in those situations?
> 
> Me: And I've said many times that I do approve of you, and I do love you.
> 
> Wife: I know you have and I appreciate every time you do. But when we are having difficult discussions, why cant you show me then. Before escalation?
> 
> Me: I do want to show you I care, but you have to keep in mind, you are screaming at me, yelling, and it is all I can do just to keep my temper down. I keep trying to tell you, if you could calm yourself down and have a civil conversation, I could easily come back, but while you are so very angry, I have to take a step back emotionally until you can calm down.
> 
> Me: I do try before it gets to that point.
> Me: I have said before, "I love you and I do not want to leave you, but..."
> Me: Or whatever the topic is.
> 
> Wife: I keep asking this, BEFORE things escalate, why can you not show me that you care? The statement you said you used above is a very recent thing and I can only remember you saying maybe 2-3 times. You also did not start our conversation out that way last night. I have to say, that doesnt demonstrate caring per se. What demonstrates caring to me is hearing what Im saying, even if you dont agree try to understand what Im saying, try to show that you are concerned about my point of view. You keep trying to point to the escalation and skip over what is causing it.
> 
> Wife: When we have difficult discussions you are not willing at the time to ever come off your opinion or position. You dig your heels in and have a tough $h*t attitude toward me. That is what upsets me. I want to be understood.
> 
> Wife: I recognize that I am handling it all wrong, that I have to find another way to handle the way you respond to me. I cannot explain it any other way than to say that when you dont try to understand me, empathize with me and are cold with me I feel ignored, unloved and it pushes me into a fear response that you must not love me or you wouldnt do that. At the core of all of this is my fear of you not loving me, you leaving me, that I am not good enough in your eyes. Im sorry that I need that reassurance so much from you.


"Which is why therapy is a must"

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## Tron

Classic BPD blameshifting in its full glory.

As Conrad used to say, if you can get them to admit that they are even partially responsible, accept that, keep you mouth shut and be glad. 

And if she makes a serious effort in therapy to deal with her issues, deal with the CSA, DBT, etc. then you might have something to work with.


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I think Sam was willing to try to help breathedeep develop that.
> 
> Have you read Sam's blog, far?


No, nor do I have much interest. 

I don't have anything against him, other than his painting a scenario of false hope to someone who is not anywhere near equipped to navigate their way through the minefield of a BPD'ers mind.

Sam, I understand CSA. My wife was a victim of it. I myself have been sexually assaulted, but as an adult. 

But this is more.

This is classic BPD behavior. I watched one eat one of my soldiers alive for the better part of two years. He spent weeks sleeping in my spare room because of behavior exactly like BD'S wife. She slept with multiple other men while he stayed with us. She gas lighted, blame shifted, and crushed this guy. CRUSHED HIM.

I will never advocate for a reconciliation with someone with BPD because I have seen first hand the devastation wrought.

I am sorry if this sounds bitter, and I hope you find what you are looking for.

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## Blossom Leigh

Annie123 said:


> These conversations sound so familiar. No CSA in my H's case but everything you say your wife says or does is almost identical to what I go through with my husband.
> 
> All I can say is, I understand what you're going through and I really hope things will change for the better. In my case, they haven't and I don't think they will. I hear all sorts of promises all the time. He'll say anything he thinks I want to hear just to calm me down at that moment. And that's where it stops. All promises stop at that moment and nothing is ever done.
> 
> *It's exhausting, hours and hours of putting you down, yelling, name calling and then throwing the 'that's not what I said' or 'that's now what I meant' statement to make you feel crazy. 'I didn't say you were stupid, I said you were ACTING like you're stupid.' 'I didn't call you retarded! I only said things you were saying made you sound retarded' etc.
> 
> And projecting, blaming, shaming, guilt tripping... It eats your soul* away, man. I know you want to help her and that's very noble of you. I'm just asking you to be aware of the possibility that her behaviors may never change. Even if she gets the right kind of help.
> Please take care of yourself and your kids. Don't let it last forever.
> 
> My H would stop drinking for weeks and I'd think 'yes! I'm seeing some real progress, we're heading in the right direction, there IS hope for us after all!' and then he'd come home drunk one day. OK, let's start over.
> 
> He'd promise he won't spend as much and would do great for a few weeks but then he'd just go back to the way he was.
> 
> Intimacy? It has never started again after it stopped almost 20 months ago, but he says it will start any day now.
> 
> *Yelling and name calling... you know, he's doing his best but I push his buttons. So if I just stopped pushing his buttons, he'd stop lashing out at me.* But nevermind the fact that me pushing his buttons is something he IMAGINES. He wants to see it that way so that he has an excuse to lash out. It's never his fault.
> 
> All I'm saying... she says she will change? Ask for consistency. No timeline? I wouldn't accept that. My H asks for the same thing. You're not going to give her a timeline to finish the process, only to start it and get to the point that you see that she's trying FOR REAL. And not that she's just doing enough to shut you up.
> 
> My husband says 'I'm not perfect and you can't expect me to be perfect' when I tell him I won't tolerate the abuse. I try to tell him that being imperfect is leaving your dirty laundry around the apartment, not cleaning after yourself, etc. *But choosing to insult and abuse the person you claim to love the most is not a sign of imperfection, it's a choice they make.
> *
> I'm sorry for the long post. Just be careful and try to protect yourself and your kids as much as you can. And good luck!


THESE are the reasons for the protection. Thank you for sharing this. This behavior has REAL impact. My health took a serious beating in the past three years. That person is choosing that behavior that is highly destructive. I think it is perfectly honorable to disengage it and be against those poor choices. Its asking them to choose better.


----------



## Annie123

Also, not sure if it's relevant to OP's situation, but I see a lot of this in my husband



> “IN ONE IMPORTANT WAY, an abusive man works like a magician: His tricks largely rely on getting you to look off in the wrong direction, distracting your attention so that you won’t notice where the real action is. He draws you into focusing on the turbulent world of his feelings to keep your eyes turned away from the true cause of his abusiveness, which lies in how he thinks. He leads you into a convoluted maze, making your relationship with him a labyrinth of twists and turns. He wants you to puzzle over him, to try to figure him out, as though he were a wonderful but broken machine for which you need only to find and fix the malfunctioning parts to bring it roaring to its full potential. His desire, though he may not admit it even to himself, is that you wrack your brain in this way so that you won’t notice the patterns and logic of his behavior, the consciousness behind the craziness.”
> ― Lundy Bancroft, Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men


When I stopped trying to figure him out (BPD? NPD? Abandoned as a child? Bullied by his brother when he was a kid...?), I started focusing on the real problem - the way he thinks and the things he CHOOSES to do because of the way he thinks.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Annie123 said:


> Also, not sure if it's relevant to OP's situation, but I see a lot of this in my husband
> 
> 
> 
> When I stopped trying to figure him out (BPD? NPD? Abandoned as a child? Bullied by his brother when he was a kid...?), I started focusing on the real problem - the way he thinks and *the things he CHOOSES to do because of the way he thinks*.


Yep. Spot on.


----------



## farsidejunky

Annie123 said:


> Also, not sure if it's relevant to OP's situation, but I see a lot of this in my husband
> 
> 
> 
> When I stopped trying to figure him out (BPD? NPD? Abandoned as a child? Bullied by his brother when he was a kid...?), I started focusing on the real problem - the way he thinks and the things he CHOOSES to do because of the way he thinks.


QFT.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## breathedeep

turnera said:


> *Great that she sent you the passcode. It means she doesn't REALLY want to walk away.*


I see the passcode as a token to at least give me *something*. 1) She knows I don't care to look, and 2) I don't really think anything is up at the moment, and I have experience knowing when she is up to something.


----------



## breathedeep

Annie123 said:


> These conversations sound so familiar. No CSA in my H's case but everything you say your wife says or does is almost identical to what I go through with my husband.
> 
> All I can say is, I understand what you're going through and I really hope things will change for the better. In my case, they haven't and I don't think they will. I hear all sorts of promises all the time. He'll say anything he thinks I want to hear just to calm me down at that moment. And that's where it stops. All promises stop at that moment and nothing is ever done.
> 
> *It's exhausting, hours and hours of putting you down, yelling, name calling and then throwing the 'that's not what I said' or 'that's now what I meant' statement to make you feel crazy. 'I didn't say you were stupid, I said you were ACTING like you're stupid.' 'I didn't call you retarded! I only said things you were saying made you sound retarded' etc.*
> 
> And projecting, blaming, shaming, guilt tripping... It eats your soul away, man. I know you want to help her and that's very noble of you. I'm just asking you to be aware of the possibility that her behaviors may never change. Even if she gets the right kind of help.
> Please take care of yourself and your kids. Don't let it last forever.
> 
> My H would stop drinking for weeks and I'd think 'yes! I'm seeing some real progress, we're heading in the right direction, there IS hope for us after all!' and then he'd come home drunk one day. OK, let's start over.
> 
> He'd promise he won't spend as much and would do great for a few weeks but then he'd just go back to the way he was.
> 
> Intimacy? It has never started again after it stopped almost 20 months ago, but he says it will start any day now.
> 
> Yelling and name calling... you know, he's doing his best but I push his buttons. So if I just stopped pushing his buttons, he'd stop lashing out at me. But nevermind the fact that me pushing his buttons is something he IMAGINES. He wants to see it that way so that he has an excuse to lash out. It's never his fault.
> 
> All I'm saying... she says she will change? Ask for consistency. No timeline? I wouldn't accept that. My H asks for the same thing. You're not going to give her a timeline to finish the process, only to start it and get to the point that you see that she's trying FOR REAL. And not that she's just doing enough to shut you up.
> 
> My husband says 'I'm not perfect and you can't expect me to be perfect' when I tell him I won't tolerate the abuse. I try to tell him that being imperfect is leaving your dirty laundry around the apartment, not cleaning after yourself, etc. But choosing to insult and abuse the person you claim to love the most is not a sign of imperfection, it's a choice they make.
> 
> I'm sorry for the long post. Just be careful and try to protect yourself and your kids as much as you can. And good luck!


I'm sorry you had to go through that, but I take some comfort in knowing I'm not the only one who is or has gone through what I am.

And yes, it has become unbelievably exhausting, physically and emotionally.

Physically exhausting because I want to do what it takes to make things better, so I commit to hours-long conversations with her (as last night) even though we have covered the topics many times and seem to only keep circling around, and even though it is creeping up on 2:00am and I have to be up in three and a half hours for work. Physically exhausting because she insists on having these discussions AT WORK during work hours (as demonstrated in the messenger conversation I posted earlier), which causes me to have to stay late, or work over the weekend.

Emotionally exhausting for many, many reasons: I must constantly be on my toes. I must constantly be ready for a battle of logic versus irrationality with her, meaning she will fire a barrage of issues my way and I will have to navigate them as logically as I can, often times being woefully under equipped to deal with the issues at hand (as can be seen in this thread). Emotionally exhausting because of the constant story changing, and saying she didn't say something, or did say something, or meant something another way that she said it, or said what she meant at the time, but has had time to think about it now and has the right to change her mind (I do agree with this). Emotionally exhausting because of the not-so-rare verbal attacks and anger I get from her.

My wife also likes to talk about how she is not perfect and I will not find a perfect person. I haven't really had a good response to this one yet, but I like what you wrote above. I hope you don't mind if I adapt it to my situation.


----------



## Duguesclin

breathedeep said:


> Our current conversation via messenger. I'm posting in full so you can see and point out any mistakes I've made and hopefully I can learn better techniques.
> 
> Wife: I am so sad
> 
> me: I know
> me: I'm sorry
> 
> ...........


Breathedeep, in this exchange with your wife, why are you trying to argue? Why are you trying to use logic?

You need to connect emotionally. You need to do active listening.

What is important is not what she is saying, but why she is saying it. Arguing with her is not going to get you anywhere.


----------



## BBF

Duguesclin said:


> Breathedeep, in this exchange with your wife, why are you trying to argue? Why are you trying to use logic?
> 
> You need to connect emotionally. You need to do active listening.
> 
> What is important is not what she is saying, but why she is saying it. Arguing with her is not going to get you anywhere.


I know this has been posted before in other threads, but it seems appropriate here too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Duguesclin said:


> Breathedeep, in this exchange with your wife, why are you trying to argue? Why are you trying to use logic?
> 
> You need to connect emotionally. You need to do active listening.
> 
> What is important is not what she is saying, but why she is saying it. Arguing with her is not going to get you anywhere.


I would like to see an example of how you would have engaged her, since her words are written here. If you have time.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

breathedeep said:


> I'm sorry you had to go through that, but I take some comfort in knowing I'm not the only one who is or has gone through what I am.
> 
> And yes, it has become unbelievably exhausting, physically and emotionally.
> 
> Physically exhausting because I want to do what it takes to make things better, so I commit to hours-long conversations with her (as last night) even though we have covered the topics many times and seem to only keep circling around, and even though it is creeping up on 2:00am and I have to be up in three and a half hours for work. Physically exhausting because she insists on having these discussions AT WORK during work hours (as demonstrated in the messenger conversation I posted earlier), which causes me to have to stay late, or work over the weekend.
> 
> Emotionally exhausting for many, many reasons: I must constantly be on my toes. I must constantly be ready for a battle of logic versus irrationality with her, meaning she will fire a barrage of issues my way and I will have to navigate them as logically as I can, often times being woefully under equipped to deal with the issues at hand (as can be seen in this thread). Emotionally exhausting because of the constant story changing, and saying she didn't say something, or did say something, or meant something another way that she said it, or said what she meant at the time, but has had time to think about it now and has the right to change her mind (I do agree with this). Emotionally exhausting because of the not-so-rare verbal attacks and anger I get from her.
> 
> My wife also likes to talk about how she is not perfect and I will not find a perfect person. I haven't really had a good response to this one yet, but I like what you wrote above. I hope you don't mind if I adapt it to my situation.


You need your sleep and you need your job. These are good places for boundaries. Don't let her keep you up like that and risk your job like that.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

BBF said:


> I know this has been posted before in other threads, but it seems appropriate here too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg


That is freak in' hilarious!!!


----------



## Annie123

breathedeep said:


> I'm sorry you had to go through that, but I take some comfort in knowing I'm not the only one who is or has gone through what I am.
> 
> And yes, it has become unbelievably exhausting, physically and emotionally.
> 
> Physically exhausting because I want to do what it takes to make things better, so I commit to hours-long conversations with her (as last night) even though we have covered the topics many times and seem to only keep circling around, and even though it is creeping up on 2:00am and I have to be up in three and a half hours for work. Physically exhausting because she insists on having these discussions AT WORK during work hours (as demonstrated in the messenger conversation I posted earlier), which causes me to have to stay late, or work over the weekend.
> 
> Emotionally exhausting for many, many reasons: I must constantly be on my toes. I must constantly be ready for a battle of logic versus irrationality with her, meaning she will fire a barrage of issues my way and I will have to navigate them as logically as I can, often times being woefully under equipped to deal with the issues at hand (as can be seen in this thread). Emotionally exhausting because of the constant story changing, and saying she didn't say something, or did say something, or meant something another way that she said it, or said what she meant at the time, but has had time to think about it now and has the right to change her mind (I do agree with this). Emotionally exhausting because of the not-so-rare verbal attacks and anger I get from her.
> 
> *My wife also likes to talk about how she is not perfect and I will not find a perfect person. I haven't really had a good response to this one yet, but I like what you wrote above. I hope you don't mind if I adapt it to my situation.*


Of course you can adapt it but I have to disappoint you, even if she says at that moment that she understands what you're saying, it doesn't mean she will act differently next time the same the same topic comes up 
Maybe this can help, I just read it. It doesn't look easy but it's doable:


> Tips for Communicating with Someone With Borderline Disorder
> 
> 1. Be realistic. You will not eliminate another person's borderline behavior, no matter how well you communicate. Only that person can do that. Your goal is simply to communicate in a way that respects you and the personal with borderline personality disorder (BP).
> 
> 2. Leave if necessary. You do not have to tolerate physical threats or emotional or verbal abuse.
> 
> 3. Simplify. When speaking with a BP, especially about sensitive issues, remember emotion is likely to be so strong that neither of you can do high-level thinking. Make each sentence short, simple, and direct. Leave no room for misinterpretation.
> 
> 4. Separate the person from the behavior. Make it clear to the BP that when you dislike behavior, you do not dislike the person. You may have to reinforce this often.
> 
> 5. Address feelings before facts. In ordinary conversation, we put facts before feelings. We assess facts and react with our feelings to them. But people with BPD often reverse this process. They have certain feelings—such as the fear that a partner will abandon them—and so they change the facts to match their feelings.
> 
> For example, their partner isn't going to the grocery store; he is walking out on the relationship. A non-BP confronted with that accusation may want to try to point out the facts (he's taking a grocery list, there is no food in the refrigerator, or so on), but in the BP's emotional state, that will be irrelevant. Instead, the non-BP may get farther by acknowledging an empathizing the BP's feelings (not facts) rather than discounting them. Then the non-BP can insert her reality.
> 
> For example, "You sound really upset. I would be upset too if I thought you were walking away forever. However (however is better than "but") I'm just going to the store and I'll be back in an hour."
> 
> 6. Keep focusing on your message. Ignore the BP's attacks or threats or attempts to change the subject. Stay calm and reiterate your point. If you're feeling attacked, calmly say that things are getting too hot and you'll be back in an hour. Then leave.
> 
> 7. Ask questions. Turn the problem over to the other person. Ask for alternative solutions, by saying, for example, "Where do you think we should go from here?" Or "I'm not able to say yes, and you seem to really want me to. How can we solve this problem?"
> 
> 8. Remember the importance of timing. There are good times and bad times to bring up certain subjects. An incident that may make the BP feel particularly vulnerable—the loss of a job, for example—could lead him or her to feel rejected, abandoned or invalidated. Your conversation is likely to be a lot more difficult. Postpone it if you can, or at least take into account the BP's greater vulnerability at this time.
> 
> 9. In the midst of an intense conversation that is escalating and unproductive, practice Delay, Distract, Depersonalize, and Detach.
> 
> Delay. Tell the other person, "Why don't we think about things and talk about this later?" or "Give me some time to think about what you're saying." Speak calmly and in a way that affirms the other person as well as yourself, without necessarily confirming their claims: "I'm feeling upset right now. Your feelings are important to me and I need some time to understand them."
> 
> Distract. Suggest, for instance, that the two of you run an errand together.
> 
> Depersonalize. Throughout, you will do better if you remind yourself frequently that the BP's harsh criticism of you is not real, but still feels very real to that person. Don't take the other person's comments personally, however cutting or cruel they may feel to you. This is the nature of the disorder.
> 
> Detach. Remove yourself emotionally from getting caught up in the emotional whirlwind. Resolve to yourself, "I'm not going to get so involved in this."
> 
> This is especially true not just in moments of high negativity, but in moments of high positive emotions. Impulsivity is a key trait of people with BPD, and while it can show up in negative actions—like throwing something through a window or telling you you're a monster and he never wants to see you again—it can also show up in positive actions: Telling you she adores you and wants to get married, right now or tomorrow. A BP's positive impulsivity can be very seductive. Detaching yourself can help you guard against it.
> 
> The emotional cycle that a person with BPD goes through can be compared to a row of dominos. One trigger, one push of the first domino, and the entire row falls in rapid succession. Your job is to try to remove your own "domino" from the row. You can also learn what makes the dominos fall. Pay attention to your experiences and anticipate ways to keep things calm. If you can calm yourself, the adrenaline doesn't flow through your system, and you can begin to try to steer the volatile relationship into less stormy seas.
> 
> It may help if you remind yourself, "I can't help that person's splitting. I can't help that person's shame. I can't help that person's fear. I can't control those things. What I can control is how I respond. And if I respond calmly, not impulsively, perhaps I can lower the temperature and help us find new ways to respond to each other and manage the BPD."
> 
> This doesn't mean caving in, however. Simply adopting a "whatever you say, dear" is not good for your own mental health, and it's not good for the person with BPD
> BPD Central


Sorry if it has been linked before!


----------



## breathedeep

Blossom Leigh said:


> I would like to see an example of how you would have engaged her, since her words are written here. If you have time.


Great suggestion and great learning tool for me since Active Listening has been my weakness. Had a late night last night so I am ready to get some sleep; I can work on this tomorrow.

I'm excited about this homework.


----------



## x598

Duguesclin said:


> Breathedeep, in this exchange with your wife, why are you trying to argue? Why are you trying to use logic?
> 
> You need to connect emotionally. You need to do active listening.
> 
> What is important is not what she is saying, but why she is saying it. Arguing with her is not going to get you anywhere.


while i agree arguing is not going to get you anywhere.....

IMO the above strategy is a bad idea. what you would be doing is reinforcing her bad/BPD behavior by catering to it.

The mentality she has is not something you can effectively deal with.


----------



## Duguesclin

Blossom Leigh said:


> Our current conversation via messenger. I'm posting in full so you can see and point out any mistakes I've made and hopefully I can learn better techniques.
> 
> Wife: I am so sad
> 
> me: I know
> me: I'm sorry
> 
> Wife: I cant express how sorry I am
> Wife: I feel horribly
> 
> Me: About what?
> 
> Wife: how Ive treated you
> Wife: what I said on sunday about you finding someone else
> 
> Me: Why do you feel sorry?
> Me: Is this separate from last night?
> 
> Wife: not really, its all the same thing that has been going on
> Wife: same topic/issue
> Wife: is it not
> Wife: ?
> 
> Me: Last night you were very upset. You were hurting. I seem to be the source of your anger. You feel the boundaries I am trying to set are ultimatums. Let me understand why do you feel that way?
> 
> Wife: Last night I was upset about the ultimatum
> Wife: I felt that it wasnt fair
> 
> Me: Do you feel that the rules have changed on you and you have not been warned?
> 
> Wife: Yes. It seems coming out of the blue. We have not discussed them.
> I am sorry to be so hurful. I feel you are not listening
> 
> .....


Blossom, this could be going that way. He should not argue with her. It is pointless at this stage. He needs to seek to understand.

This is what JLD is promoting: understanding.

By the way, why is your tone so different with me than with JLD?


----------



## Thor

BreatheDeep, you really need to read the book "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" asap. These long drawn out conversations are useless to her and harmful to you. You need the tools in that book!

Also, you seem to be trying to fix her. You can't. You're not qualified as a therapist specializing in CSA/BPD/PD/PTSD. Even if you were, as her husband your position disqualifies you from being able to help her directly. All you can do is set expectations and boundaries. You can be supportive when she needs it, but that doesn't mean subjecting yourself to hours long circular conversations which have no benefit to anybody.

The only thing coming from those discussions is her reinforcing her own distorted thinking.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Duguesclin said:


> Blossom, this could be going that way. He should not argue with her. It is pointless at this stage. He needs to seek to understand.
> 
> This is what JLD is promoting: understanding.
> 
> By the way, why is your tone so different with me than with JLD?


It may be more about the frequency with which I challenge her thinking instead of tone. My tone was the same on the last exchange as it is now. I have a great affinity for her believe it or not. It's why I care to challenge her. I think what you are picking up on is you are easier to accept for me because your logic tends to be accurate.

Jld is *trying* to promote understanding. Sometimes she hits it, but there is a serious gap between her perspective and yours. I've often wondered why I see a difference when y'all promote the same ideas. After this last exchange I believe you show more respect for personal choice because you see personhood and appreciate it and that is the spot she starts belittling and shaming. Thats a narcissistic move since narcissist do not accept or see the other person's personhood. I have radar pretty sensitive to pathological narcissistic behavior after *years* of dealing with it. This last time I view that she gaslit MEM's personal choice. Some here think it's intentional. Some think not. I hope it's not because I want to believe she is not a pathological narcissist. I want her aware, so she can address it. She's hurting people. But, so far she is not receptive, which is also a marker for a narcissistic disorder. So now I'm making you aware as her husband since you asked and consider this raw feed without intent to harm. I want her to take a serious look at herself, as do many here. There is something wrong in her approach and maybe the two of you can work through it together. There are too many intelligent people here seeing the same thing for it not to be considered.

You do not have to agree. All I ask is for you to consider addressing this.


----------



## happy as a clam

breathedeep said:


> Had a 5 hour discussion with my wife last night. Well, I think it would be better categorized as us having a 5 minute discussion followed by 4 hours and 55 minutes of her swearing, yelling, and calling me names. I wrote most of what follows last night so my memory of the events were still fresh.
> 
> This one is long, so you might want to grab a cup of coffee and a seat. I apologize in advance for the length.
> 
> Everything started out ok. During the day we had been talking about how we were ready to do what we needed to do to have a successful marriage and a healthy relationship, so we started our conversation there, talking about how we know the process is going to be long and difficult, but reassuring each other that we were committed. She asked me what the process looked like from my perspective and what I needed from her. I told her that for me to be able to stay in the marriage, she would have to find a counselor that specializes in CSA. I told her that I would be there with her every step and that I would be going to my own counseling for my childhood abuse.
> 
> This is where it turned bad. She said I didn’t know what i was asking of her. She called me a selfish ******* and said I was using her marriage against her. She said I was forcing her to do something and using our marriage to control her. I told her I wasn’t giving her an ultimatum or forcing her. She said yes you are, you are leaving me no choice but to live by your rules or you will divorce me. I told her i was not telling her what she had to do, but i am telling her what I need to stay in this marriage. She said that is an ultimatum. I said it is a boundary. She said I could take my boundaries and books and shove them up my ass. She said she would not allow me to give her an ultimatum and would not allow me to control her. She said I was using what she told me the other day when she opened up against her. She said I was being cruel and she didn't deserve this. By this point she was yelling and swearing at me, calling me a selfish a-hole, saying I am despicable for doing this to her, etc… I had to ask her to calm down several times so that we could have a discussion, and that her yelling and swearing at me was not us having a discussion. She said I was treating her like a child.
> 
> She said she couldn't believe I was destroying our marriage and treating her this way over sex and that I was severely over reacting.
> 
> She reiterated that she could never trust me again and that I have ruined our relationship by giving her a bull$hit ultimatum. She said that she would never open up to me again because she gets punished. She said I am just like all the other men, especially her ex-husband.
> 
> She said I was using her vulnerability to control her and make her do what I want. Said I was doing this out of selfishness and my ridiculous need for sex, and not from a place of love and compassion. She said that no person who supposedly loved someone would ask such a thing of them.
> 
> She said she wouldn't go to counseling on my terms. I told her I wasn't giving her terms, that I was only telling her what I needed to stay in this relationship. She said she hoped I realize how dangerous this path was that i am leading them down. She said I was not going to tell her how long she had to go. She asked me if I'd even know what her getting better would look like. She asked me how I would know when she was healthy and ready to stop going. She said she was going to have to live day to day in fear that her ‘recovery’ wasn't good enough for me and that I would be gone when she came home. She asked me when I became such an expert on CSA to feel qualified to tell her she needs to get help.
> 
> She said her sexual abuse wasn't the reason for any of her problems and that I would be wasting our time and money with my bull$hit ultimatums. Said the real issue here is the abuse she suffered from her ex-husband. She said unequivocally I could not go with her and that time was for her and no counselor would allow me to go anyway. She said me insisting on going is just another way I am trying to control her. She said if I did go, she wouldn't be able to open up to the counselor so it would be a waste of time and the only reason I want to go is so I can take notes and make sure she's on task and not faking a recovery.
> 
> She said I don't know anything about CSA and I have no right to be issuing ultimatums after reading a few books. I told her this is not about my expertise on CSA. It is about her behavior towards me and that I am no longer willing to accept the way she treats me and that seeing the counselor about the CSA is the first step. She reiterated that the sexual abuse has nothing to do with this and that it actually plays little to no part in our relationship at all. Of course I argued that she said otherwise the previous four or five days, and that she even admitted that she couldn’t trust anyone because of her sexual abuse, and that trust was one of the main factors in a relationship. She the admitted again that she couldn’t trust because of what happened, but that was the only way what happened affects us.
> 
> She asked me what other ultimatums I have for her. I told her I need her to unlock her phone. She got very defensive. She said she could not take the fingerprint lock off, that it is part of the phones built in security. When I said she could turn it off, she said she wouldn't do it because she has to keep her kids out. She then said this is just another way I am trying to control her. She said I am really starting to show my true colors and that she doesn't even know who I am anymore. She said she doesn't like this person I've become and that my books and articles have ruined our marriage. She asked me what I am insinuating by asking her to unlock her phone and said me asking that shows I have serious trust issues and If I need to snoop through her phone we are already too far gone. I reminded her that she has cheated on me and her ex in the past. She asked me when I was going to forgive her for that. She said she has apologized and I have no right to keep holding it over her head. She said that is no way to be in a relationship and since we are setting boundaries, there, that's hers. She said she cannot live with another person who is always suspicious of her. She reiterated that she doesn't know who I am or who I've become and me reading some stupid books doesn't make me an expert on boundaries and CSA. She said that her experience is completely different so I have made a serious mistake trying to put her into some category I read in a book or article.
> 
> She said all of this is my fault. Said this wasn't about us or her getting help, but it was about me being a despicable *******. She said she wasn't the one with the problem here. Said this is my problem and that she was fine. She asked me what I was going to do to fix us. I told her I would be going to counseling too. She asked if she could go to every session since I insisted on going to hers. I said yes, you are more than welcome to go, and I will let my counselor know they can talk to me just as they would if you weren't in the room. She said she wouldn't do that because she isn't a controlling ******* like me. Said she understands that my therapy is for me and that she’s not an as$hole and doesn't have to check up on me.
> 
> She said what I have done tonight is seriously damaged our marriage. She said I have hurt her more than she ever imagined I could. Said she was ashamed and disappointed in me. Said she regrets making the mistake of marrying me and then opening up to me. Says she is ashamed of herself too for making that mistake. She said I could have taken any other tact but I chose what was probably the most damaging. We talked until 200am. At the end, she called me a sanctimonious a$shole. Said this was about retribution not love and that I don't love her.
> 
> As we were lying in bed she said, “We are in a predicament now aren't we?” I asked what she meant. She said me with my ultimatum and she promising she will not be controlled by me.
> 
> Throughout the conversation when she would ask me what made me such an expert, or questioning why I am doing this, I would tell her that I am going based on our past 2 and a half years, and what she has said to me the last few days. She would then say the things she said the past few days weren’t what she meant. She said she has had time to think through her feelings and now she realizes she doesn’t ‘tune out’ or go someplace else in her head.
> 
> Said I need to think about a way to repair the damage I caused and how badly I've hurt her.


After this loony display?

Save yourself.

RUN. FOR. THE. HILLS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Sun Catcher

Breathe, where were the children when the 5 hour shouting match was going on? I hope you are not taking your 50% custody of your children while you make your decision. Your ex-wife needs to have 100% custody until you have sorted your life out. You can visit with them outside of your house and far away from your wife. Don't subject your innocent children to this mad woman.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> It may be more about the frequency with which I challenge her thinking instead of tone. My tone was the same on the last exchange as it is now. I have a great affinity for her believe it or not. It's why I care to challenge her. I think what you are picking up on is you are easier to accept for me because your logic tends to be accurate.
> 
> Jld is *trying* to promote understanding. Sometimes she hits it, but there is a serious gap between her perspective and yours. I've often wondered why I see a difference when y'all promote the same ideas. After this last exchange I believe you show more respect for personal choice because you see personhood and appreciate it and that is the spot she starts belittling and shaming. Thats a narcissistic move since narcissist do not accept or see the other person's personhood. I have radar pretty sensitive to pathological narcissistic behavior after *years* of dealing with it. This last time I view that she gaslit MEM's personal choice. Some here think it's intentional. Some think not. I hope it's not because I want to believe she is not a pathological narcissist. I want her aware, so she can address it. She's hurting people. But, so far she is not receptive, which is also a marker for a narcissistic disorder. So now I'm making you aware as her husband since you asked and consider this raw feed without intent to harm. I want her to take a serious look at herself, as do many here. There is something wrong in her approach and maybe the two of you can work through it together. There are too many intelligent people here seeing the same thing for it not to be considered.
> 
> You do not have to agree. All I ask is for you to consider addressing this.


No, Blossom. I was not gaslighting MEM, nor am I a narcissist. Your triggering, or anyone else's, does not mean there is anything wrong with me. It means you are unwilling to take responsibility for your triggers. And you huddle together with others who have similar issues, which reinforces your views. 

Dug sees this the same way I do. He may not be as active here, but that is because he does not have as much time, not because he disagrees with me in any way.

And Sam Ruck clearly sees the toxicity on TAM and left it. And that is a shame, because his is the kind of wisdom TAM could benefit from.

Breathedeep, I did not read the whole exchange between you and your wife. But what I did read indicates that you need to engage in active listening. Your wife has her pov, too. Whether you or agree with it or not, you are going to need to consider it if you want to come to some kind of peace with her. 

To me she seems to want to work things out. She has apologized and is trying to reach out to you. Reach back with active listening as Dug has shown you. Repeat her words back to her, paraphrase them, or ask an openended question. 

But don't get defensive. Listen and try to understand. You are not right because most of the crowd here says you are right. Lifeistooshort has tried to point out your shortcomings, as has Sam Ruck. Those are people you could learn from.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happy as a clam

Folks, please don't get drawn into another circular debate. We all know where this leads. I would hate to see anyone get banned.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> No, Blossom. I was not gaslighting MEM, nor am I a narcissist. Your triggering, or anyone else's, does not mean there is anything wrong with me. It means you are unwilling to take responsibility for your triggers. And you huddle together with others who have similar issues, which reinforces your views.
> 
> Dug sees this the same way I do. He may not be as active here, but that is because he does not have as much time, not because he disagrees with me in any way.
> 
> And Sam Ruck clearly sees the toxicity on TAM and left it. And that is a shame, because his is the kind of wisdom TAM could benefit from.
> 
> Breathedeep, I did not read the whole exchange between you and your wife. But what I did read indicates that you need to engage in active listening. Your wife has her pov, too. Whether you or agree with it or not, you are going to need to consider it if you want to come to some kind of peace with her.
> 
> To me she seems to want to work things out. She has apologized and is trying to reach out to you. Reach back with active listening as Dug has shown you. Repeat her words back to her, paraphrase them, or ask an openended question.
> 
> But don't get defensive. Listen and try to understand. You are not right because most of the crowd here says you are right. Lifeistooshort has tried to point out your shortcomings, as has Sam Ruck. Those are people you could learn from.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I take hyper responsibility for my triggers. In that very thread I invited all others to vet my perspective.

I will take this response as one more time of digging in your heels against self assessment. As well as not caring that you are hurting people.

Note taken.

Affinity gone.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> I take hyper responsibility for my triggers. In that very thread I invited all others to vet my perspective.
> 
> I will take this response as one more time of digging in your heels against self assessment. As well as not caring that you are hurting people.
> 
> Note taken.
> 
> Affinity gone.


We will have to agree to disagree, then.

Back to Breathedeep.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

My wife and I have been together since 1989.

It had been hard sometimes, bloody hard.

But we are still together.

Just thought I'd mention that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BookOfJob

breathedeep said:


> .......
> She said she could not take the fingerprint lock off, that it is part of the phones built in security. When I said she could turn it off, she said she wouldn't do it because she has to keep her kids out........
> 
> She said all of this is my fault.......
> 
> Said I need to think about a way to repair the damage I caused and how badly I've hurt her.......


Ding ding ding

Three red flags pop up from your story:
1. Refusal to be open -- hiding something from a spouse
2. Blaming you (the husband) for the problem in the marriage
3. and refusal of any effort to fix it.

These three are not good and they are red flags (in the standard CWI dictionary). I take it that these could be caused by anything but I came from the Coping with Infidelity (CWI) forum and these flags seem to be awful to me.



happy as a clam said:


> After this loony display?
> 
> Save yourself.
> 
> RUN. FOR. THE. HILLS.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In essence this is the standard advice given in the CWI. I wish you strength and best of luck in the journeys ahead. It will - one way or another - turn for the better.

No more discussions about phone security, being open to one another, or any talk about what your suspicions are. Go dark and dig deeper.


----------



## Thor

BookOfJob said:


> Ding ding ding
> 
> Three red flags pop up from your story:
> 1. Refusal to be open -- hiding something from a spouse
> 2. Blaming you (the husband) for the problem in the marriage
> 3. and refusal of any effort to fix it.
> 
> These three are not good and they are red flags (in the standard CWI dictionary). I take it that these could be caused by anything but I came from the Coping with Infidelity (CWI) forum and these flags seem to be awful to me.
> 
> 
> 
> In essence this is the standard advice given in the CWI. I wish you strength and best of luck in the journeys ahead. It will - one way or another - turn for the better.
> 
> No more discussions about phone security, being open to one another, or any talk about what your suspicions are. Go dark and dig deeper.


She may or may not be cheating, but that is trivial compared to the CSA and apparent personality disorder.

Those behaviors are quite consistent with CSA, btw. Control is a huge thing for the CSA victim. She doesn't trust anybody, not even her husband. What she sees as protective privacy looks to the rest of us like guilty secrecy. In the world of CWI indeed these things are almost always followed by the discovery of infidelity. But in the world of CSA it can be a totally different animal.

BreatheDeep needs to first get the CSA and PD sorted out, either by him leaving or by getting her into qualified therapy. Or, I suppose, he could accept this as his lot in life and let things revert to the status quo, but that won't be any more successful than the status quo is now.

If it turns out there are, or were, other infidelities then they will have to be addressed at some point. Perhaps the only advantage to digging now for proof of a current affair would be to provide an excuse to D right now. My opinion is dealing with the immediate crisis of the CSA and probable PD is a higher priority with much larger stakes.


----------



## Thor

MattMatt said:


> My wife and I have been together since 1989.
> 
> It had been hard sometimes, bloody hard.
> 
> But we are still together.
> 
> Just thought I'd mention that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've been together with my wife since 1979, married since 1982. I was too loyal and too naive to leave in the early few years. Being a secondary is damned hard at times. Leaving a marriage, or recommending someone like BreatheDeep leave, is not based on a lack of love for the CSA victim, but rather based on loving oneself enough to leave when the pain and damage for the Secondary becomes too much.

We each have to draw that line in the sand for ourselves, and it isn't easy.


----------



## Marduk

Duguesclin said:


> Blossom, this could be going that way. He should not argue with her. It is pointless at this stage. He needs to seek to understand.
> 
> This is what JLD is promoting: understanding.
> 
> By the way, why is your tone so different with me than with JLD?


Probably for the same reason that your tone is very different when you weigh in when people question her.


----------



## Grogmiester

Ive said in the past I was married for 13 years but technically my XW walked away in the 13th year. The divorce was finalized in 1995 which would be 15 yeas.

When she left all she wanted was her car and the TV. She left everything else behind, including 3 children.

Boundaries are not barriers in the sense they prevent the abuser from recovery. They show the abuser I'm worth more than your words. They protect us from sacrificing our dignity and respect for ourselves at the alter of marriage at any cost. Boundaries are also not the "latest rage" or "fad". We all have different boundaries. What we're willing to live with and what is a deal breaker. 

@breathedeep withstood a 5 hour verbal assault. Five hours of swearing, named calling and guilting. This was just one encounter. Multiply that by weeks, months, years. Each one of these encounters no matter how hard you try takes a little piece of you away. 

@breathedeep says he's developing a plan for him and his family. I respect that. I may not agree with him all the time but at the end of the day he needs to know he's done his best. His best might work or it might not. What ever happens he's not going to be alone like I was scratching my head wondering if I was loosing my mind. He has a place to come to ,,,, us. 

I think painting TAM as a toxic environment is using a very wide brush. I think the responders who've dealt with spouses with a PD have been forth coming with their experiences in a truthful way. They've provided resources to help @breathedeep be better informed. I sure would have like to have known where I stood all those years ago. How it would have changed things I don't know but being informed would have been better than guessing.


----------



## weightlifter

I admire his loyalty but the ship (his marriage) is sinking and he does not have nearly enough to patch the hole. She is actively making more holes as a bonus.

Add in likely cheating (cheated?). Cmon OP you KNOW the answer.


----------



## happy as a clam

jld said:


> We will have to agree to disagree, then.
> 
> Back to Breathedeep.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would like to think that all these "mobile edits" speak for themselves...

Four, by my count...


----------



## manfromlamancha

Your wife is reaching out to you in her own imperfect way (CSA is one of the causes, may be others too).

The interaction between you and her is the same as between my wife and I sometimes - high emotion, her misunderstanding, her reacting badly and then her cooling down a bit.

Here is where I think JLD's (and Dug's) approach may be the right thing to do. Actively listen - acknowledge that you have listened and heard and remember that in some cases, it isn't about what she is saying (because as you have seen she will sometimes ramble) but why she is saying it.

She is reaching out for something and even she is not sure what. This makes it even more difficult. And the logical thing to do would be to get help - but as you know, logic doesn't apply when it comes to her emotions.

So what do you do ? You do what you are currently doing, more or less, which is listening and taking things slowly one step at a time and trying to be the best you for her. I know its like tip-toeing around on broken glass, but it is what is needed to help repair ("in sickness and in health") your beloved wife. To this end you may need the best counselling for yourself to help you get through this and ease her towards getting the kind of help she needs.

Take care.


----------



## soccermom2three

Blossom Leigh said:


> It may be more about the frequency with which I challenge her thinking instead of tone. My tone was the same on the last exchange as it is now. I have a great affinity for her believe it or not. It's why I care to challenge her. I think what you are picking up on is you are easier to accept for me because your logic tends to be accurate.
> 
> Jld is *trying* to promote understanding. Sometimes she hits it, but there is a serious gap between her perspective and yours. I've often wondered why I see a difference when y'all promote the same ideas. After this last exchange I believe you show more respect for personal choice because you see personhood and appreciate it and that is the spot she starts belittling and shaming. Thats a narcissistic move since narcissist do not accept or see the other person's personhood. I have radar pretty sensitive to pathological narcissistic behavior after *years* of dealing with it. This last time I view that she gaslit MEM's personal choice. Some here think it's intentional. Some think not. I hope it's not because I want to believe she is not a pathological narcissist. I want her aware, so she can address it. She's hurting people. But, so far she is not receptive, which is also a marker for a narcissistic disorder. So now I'm making you aware as her husband since you asked and consider this raw feed without intent to harm. I want her to take a serious look at herself, as do many here. There is something wrong in her approach and maybe the two of you can work through it together. There are too many intelligent people here seeing the same thing for it not to be considered.
> 
> You do not have to agree. All I ask is for you to consider addressing this.


Dislike


----------



## AliceA

soccermom2three said:


> Dislike


Agreed, and not just because I didn't find any issue with what she wrote in this thread but also because I find addressing a woman's husband with the request he 'address' her apparent issues appalling, to say the least.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

breeze said:


> Agreed, and not just because I didn't find any issue with what she wrote in this thread but also because I find addressing a woman's husband with the request he 'address' her apparent issues appalling, to say the least.


He asked.

The original issue wasn't in this thread.

Yes, to address... meaning talk about self assessing well.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

And just so we are all clear on what I am for and against...


I am *for* active listening AND boundaries. Jld and I have had deep conversations about it privately. We both really enjoyed those conversations. And influenced each other. This is why I asked Dug to contribute the the long post by breathedeep, I felt it could help.

I am NOT for active listening *in absence* of boundaries due to the risk of conditioning one's self to accept chronic long term abuse.

I am also NOT against *ever* using active listening. I believe optimal use is in concert *with* boundaries.

I am also NOT for gaslighting or toxic shaming and belittling posters who have clear reasons why they are NOT choosing *solely* active listening then implying they must be weak and afraid. That leads me to believe there is something "off" with THEM. Dug asked me why I have an issue between him and jld, so I answered honestly about the difference in his approach and hers.

There was an exchange where a poster said I will not exclude boundaries and solely do active listening, because I'm choosing to hold my wife accountable for her choice of poor behavior, who in turn was asked by jld "are you weak, afraid." It was done in a way I felt was psychologically abusive. 

No, the man is choosing to not accept poor behavior. That's his choice and in no way makes him weak or afraid.

It's my opinion. They can do with it what they want. I chose not to sit in silence in the face of what I saw an abusive approach. I asked her to self assess and asked him to assist because the pattern is serious enough to warrant it. That's it.

Their relationship is set up that way, so I addressed it that way.


----------



## wmn1

Blossom Leigh said:


> And just so we are all clear on what I am for and against...
> 
> 
> I am *for* active listening AND boundaries. Jld and I have had deep conversations about it privately. We both really enjoyed those conversations. And influenced each other.
> 
> I am NOT for active listening *in absence* of boundaries due to the risk of conditioning one's self to accept chronic long term abuse.
> 
> I am also NOT for gaslighting or toxic shaming and belittling posters who have clear reasons why they are NOT choosing *solely* active listening then implying they must be weak and afraid. That leads me to believe there is something "off" with THEM. Dug asked me why I have an issue between him and jld, so I answered honestly about the difference in his approach and hers.
> 
> There was an exchange where a poster said I will not exclude boundaries and solely do active listening, because I'm choosing to hold my wife accountable for her choice of poor behavior, who in turn was asked by jld "are you weak, afraid." It was done in a way I felt was psychologically abusive.
> 
> No, the man is choosing to not accept poor behavior. That's his choice and in no way makes him weak or afraid.
> 
> It's my opinion. They can do with it what they want. I chose not to sit in silence in the face of what I saw an abusive approach.


you don't have to explain yourself Blossom.

I think you hit the nail on the head in answering Dug's question. I think those who posted 'dislike' are wrong in this case.

I treat Dug differently than JLD because they are different posters although they do have similar beliefs IMO and are together of course , and beliefs that I personally disagree with 95% of the time if not more. 

I am against all infidelity and no, it is not a requirement and even at times not even wise to try to understand the person who is cheating /abusing you. It is wise to show them immediate consequences and sometimes the door. I am not pro-coddling.

In the case of this thread, I think OP needs to stop being the martyr and needs to detach and protect himself. His wife is at the minimum a runaway and at the most a cheater or someone who has a mental issue.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> And just so we are all clear on what I am for and against...
> 
> 
> I am *for* active listening AND boundaries. Jld and I have had deep conversations about it privately. We both really enjoyed those conversations. And influenced each other.
> 
> I am NOT for active listening *in absence* of boundaries due to the risk of conditioning one's self to accept chronic long term abuse.
> 
> I am also NOT against *ever* using active listening. I believe optimal use is in concert *with* boundaries.
> 
> I am also NOT for gaslighting or toxic shaming and belittling posters who have clear reasons why they are NOT choosing *solely* active listening then implying they must be weak and afraid. That leads me to believe there is something "off" with THEM. Dug asked me why I have an issue between him and jld, so I answered honestly about the difference in his approach and hers.
> 
> There was an exchange where a poster said I will not exclude boundaries and solely do active listening, because I'm choosing to hold my wife accountable for her choice of poor behavior, who in turn was asked by jld "are you weak, afraid." It was done in a way I felt was psychologically abusive.
> 
> No, the man is choosing to not accept poor behavior. That's his choice and in no way makes him weak or afraid.
> 
> It's my opinion. They can do with it what they want. I chose not to sit in silence in the face of what I saw an abusive approach. I asked her to self assess and asked him to assist because the pattern is serious enough to warrant it. That's it.
> 
> Their relationship is set up that way, so I addressed it that way.


Is this the exchange, Blossom? My questions to MEM on SadSam's thread?

_"Do you feel misunderstood? That too much is being asked of you? That it is just unfair?

Do you think maybe she feels that way, too?

We don't have to talk about it if you would rather not. I understand it may be sensitive territory. We all have that."_


There is nothing there about being weak or afraid. That may be your interpretation of it. But it is your interpretation, nothing more.

I was trying to understand why MEM seemed to be triggering at what I told him his wife may be thinking. He had said he wanted to understand her better. I tried to help him with that. As always alone later counseled him, be careful what you ask for.

Dug and I are not boundary-free, either. We just do not put the accent on boundaries. We think trying to understand where a spouse is coming from is more important than trying to control them in some way. 

And we do think your interpretation of boundaries is about control, about trying to make yourself feel safe. Dug has mentioned what he sees as your control issues to you. 

Breathedeep, I hope the active listening approach, or just using empathy in general, will help you achieve greater harmony with your wife. I think she is desperate for your understanding, your love. Again, I hope you will take counsel from lifeistooshort and samruck.


----------



## happy as a clam

@breathedeep... My advice is to disregard the recent chatter. We have seen on TAM (many times) threads get jacked and spiral into dozens and hundreds of pages in philosophical disagreements.

Like they say in AA, "Take what you need and leave the rest."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## breathedeep

happy as a clam said:


> @breathedeep... My advice is to disregard the recent chatter. We have seen on TAM (many times) threads get jacked and spiral into dozens and hundreds of pages in philosophical disagreements.
> 
> Like they say in AA, "Take what you need and leave the rest."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No worries, Happy. I can filter through that stuff.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Is this the exchange, Blossom? My questions to MEM on SadSam's thread?
> 
> _"Do you feel misunderstood? That too much is being asked of you? That it is just unfair?
> 
> Do you think maybe she feels that way, too?
> 
> We don't have to talk about it if you would rather not. I understand it may be sensitive territory. We all have that."_
> 
> 
> There is nothing there about being weak or afraid. That may be your interpretation of it. But it is your interpretation, nothing more.
> 
> I was trying to understand why MEM seemed to be triggering at what I told him his wife may be thinking. He had said he wanted to understand her better. I tried to help him with that. As always alone later counseled him, be careful what you ask for.
> 
> Dug and I are not boundary-free, either. We just do not put the accent on boundaries. We think trying to understand where a spouse is coming from is more important than trying to control them in some way.
> 
> And we do think your interpretation of boundaries is about control, about trying to make yourself feel safe. Dug has mentioned what he sees as your control issues to you.
> 
> Breathedeep, I hope the active listening approach, or just using empathy in general, will help you achieve greater harmony with your wife. I think she is desperate for your understanding, your love. Again, I hope you will take counsel from lifeistooshort and samruck.


If you are self assessing well that is all I ask. There were some serious issues with your approach even beyond just those questions that even MEM pointed out, so I wasn't the only one seeing issues

My issues stem from being neck deep in abuse almost all my life, I was born into it and have seen things at levels and such long term that many here cannot identify with, one of them is setting up situations that invite and or condition one's self to accept long term abuse. You were treading on dangerous ground with MEM in asking him to accept such, that's when I threw in my red flag because I literally had a visceral reaction to it. 

I am VERY glad you both have boundaries. I think Active listening and boundaries is the ideal. So we for all intense purposes "shouldn't" disagree. So that highlights What I disagree with. Its is the style of *those questions* bordering psychological abuse, the timing of them in the discussion and to a friend of yours who was already sending up warning flares when you asked them. 

That was the form I was subject to the most, so I can spot it a mile a way when others can't see it. Which also means I can be sensitive to it which is *why* I invited others to vet me. I did say I did not feel it was intentional, so I felt you would take my flare as a warning from an experienced friend and peer and in turn self assess, not dig your heels in. You are right, disagreeing does not mean something is wrong with you, I've walked that road myself, but I appreciate when someone say's, hey BL, I think you need to self assess and I hoped you would do the same. 

And for the record... I continue to self assess on this one.

We need to be our best us.

This s all my heart has to say on this. You can pm me if you want to.

We have thread jacked enough.


----------



## Middle of Everything

Jesus H Key-rist. I stopped looking at this thread as I thought it died and Breathdeep just needed time and its turned into the Sharks vs the Jets. EYEROLL.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> If you are self assessing well that is all I ask. There were some serious issues with your approach even beyond just those questions that even MEM pointed out, so I wasn't the only one seeing issues
> 
> My issues stem from being neck deep in abuse almost all my life, I was born into it and have seen things at levels and such long term that many here cannot identify with, one of them is setting up situations that invite and or condition one's self to accept long term abuse. You were treading on dangerous ground with MEM in asking him to accept such, that's when I threw in my red flag because I literally had a visceral reaction to it.
> 
> I am VERY glad you both have boundaries. I think Active listening and boundaries is the ideal. So we for all intense purposes "shouldn't" disagree. So that highlights What I disagree with. Its is the style of *those questions* bordering psychological abuse, the timing of them in the discussion and to a friend of yours who was already sending up warning flares when you asked them.
> 
> That was the form I was subject to the most, so I can spot it a mile a way when others can't see it. Which also means I can be sensitive to it which is *why* I invited others to vet me. I did say I did not feel it was intentional, so I felt you would take my flare as a warning from an experienced friend and peer and in turn self assess, not dig your heels in. You are right, disagreeing does not mean something is wrong with you, I've walked that road myself, but I appreciate when someone say's, hey BL, I think you need to self assess and I hoped you would do the same.
> 
> And for the record... I continue to self assess on this one.
> 
> We need to be our best us.
> 
> This s all my heart has to say on this. You can pm me if you want to.
> 
> We have thread jacked enough.


Breathedeep has said he can filter. So unless we get the word from him, I will respond to you.

The way I saw it, MEM and you were both triggering in that thread. And you both refused to take responsibility for those triggers. You instead blamed me for whatever you were feeling. 

I told MEM we did not need to continue to discuss it, as in the excerpt I noted earlier. I believe I said that more than once.

Always alone did vet you. She tried to help you see what you may not have been able to on your own.

Blossom, you have interpretations of what was communicated. We all do. But your interpretations, or visceral reactions, are just that: *your* interpretations, *your* visceral reactions, just as *my* interpretations and *my* visceral reactions are. They are not necessarily "truth." 

And "style" and "timing" are in the eyes of the beholder. They do not mean the same thing to everyone. And I am not sure what a "flare" from you is supposed to mean, nor why you thought it was your job to be sending up "flares." If MEM wanted to stop the discussion, he was free to do so, as I had already offered to him.

FTR, I don't know what MEM's wife may actually be thinking. I tried to imagine it, and offered that to MEM, as he said he wanted in post #462. 

And he agreed that it might indeed be what she thinks. He just apparently happened to think that it made her "mentally ill."

That is quite a step, Blossom. To go from hearing what one *may* think, to a diagnosis of mental illness.


----------



## happy as a clam

Please take this cr*p to PM. It's completely unfair to breathedeep and his thread...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Breathedeep, I am going to be traveling today, and so will not be online. My advice to you is the same as my husband's: seek to understand your wife. Do not get defensive. Empathy is the name of the game in resolving conflict with your wife. 

Blossom, I am sure we will both be thinking about our exchange. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me.

Good day, all.


----------



## manfromlamancha

wmn1 said:


> you don't have to explain yourself Blossom.
> 
> I think you hit the nail on the head in answering Dug's question. I think those who posted 'dislike' are wrong in this case.
> 
> I treat Dug differently than JLD because they are different posters although they do have similar beliefs IMO and are together of course , and beliefs that I personally disagree with 95% of the time if not more.
> 
> I am against all infidelity and no, it is not a requirement and even at times not even wise to try to understand the person who is cheating /abusing you. It is wise to show them immediate consequences and sometimes the door. I am not pro-coddling.
> 
> In the case of this thread, I think OP needs to stop being the martyr and needs to detach and protect himself. His wife is at the minimum a runaway and at the most a cheater or someone who has a mental issue.


wmn1 I would agree with you normally, but in this case there is no infidelity as far as I can see. This really is a case of the husband needing to listen and empathise with his troubled wife.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Breathedeep has said he can filter. So unless we get the word from him, I will respond to you.
> 
> *The way I saw it, MEM and you were both triggering in that thread*. And you both refused to take responsibility for those triggers. You instead blamed me for whatever you were feeling.
> 
> I told MEM we did not need to continue to discuss it, as in the excerpt I noted earlier. I believe I said that more than once.
> 
> Always alone did vet you. She tried to help you see what you may not have been able to on your own.
> 
> Blossom, you have interpretations of what was communicated. We all do. But your interpretations, or visceral reactions, are just that: *your* interpretations, *your* visceral reactions, just as *my* interpretations and *my* visceral reactions are. They are not necessarily "truth."
> 
> And "style" and "timing" are in the eyes of the beholder. They do not mean the same thing to everyone. And I am not sure what a "flare" from you is supposed to mean, nor why you thought it was your job to be sending up "flares." If MEM wanted to stop the discussion, he was free to do so, as I had already offered to him.
> 
> FTR, I don't know what MEM's wife may actually be thinking. I tried to imagine it, and offered that to MEM, as he said he wanted in post #462.
> 
> And he agreed that it might indeed be what she thinks. He just apparently happened to think that it made her "mentally ill."
> 
> That is quite a step, Blossom. To go from hearing what one *may* think, to a diagnosis of mental illness.


Here is what you are not getting jld. There are two ways that those of us who have experienced trauma can get triggered.

1. When it "looks" like abuse

2. And when it *IS* abuse

It was a long hard road for someone like me who did the hard work of learning how to discern between the two FOR YEARS. So you are not talking to someone who hasn't done *serious* homework in this very area. I am highly attuned to when it just looks like abuse and when it actually is. This is the area that those of us who have troubles standing up for ourselves NEED to be aware of. When my husband and I were in the heat of our reconciliation and his behavior wasn't changing and I kept working on me, self assessing MY triggers and how I may be triggering him, changing my behavior to suit him, and being as understanding as I can to the nth degree, I finally realized *holy crap, I'm conditioning myself to accept horrible behavior* THAT is when I realize it is equally important to realize when you are seeing triggers caused by historical trauma and when you are seeing triggers caused by NEW trauma and do something about it. And let me tell you, trying to do that having PTSD is hard as hell, but I realized that not doing something about it is choosing to abuse myself. This is when boundaries are imperative and it is in these very situations like breathedeep who needs to know that active listening has its place, but there is a very real need for boundaries, not only for himself but for his children involved. Its the same for MEM regarding his wife and his side of the family. 

So when I throw up a flare on someone's approach to someone here it comes from a hard earned history and from a woman that has probably done more work on herself that many can imagine here. Don't make the mistake of taking me as a uninformed lightweight. I am very aware of the difference from the appearance of abuse and actual abuse and the fact that I trigger in the presence of both and a high degree of time can tell the difference. The rest of the time I ask for extra eyes like I did in that thread. I call it like I see it.

Plus it needs to be known there is a big difference between healthy control and unhealthy control.

Now, please... lets end this thread jack and take it to pm if you have anything else. We are probably both of the verge of a ban.

I hope my words in my discernment between these issues has helped you in some way breathedeep. My apologies.


----------



## happy as a clam

Blossom Leigh said:


> Now, please... lets end this thread jack and take it to pm if you have anything else.


Wise words from a very wise woman... 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## breathedeep

I'm sorry I wasn't able to get to the Active Listening practice yet; I will, I promise. Work has kept me very busy, and you see how my home life is, so...

Last night was very bad, but not for me, for my wife's children. My wife seems to be escalating and I am actually beginning to become very worried for her and her children.

I am also worried that she doesn't have any intention of seeing a counselor, but I will give her more time to see if she actually makes an appointment.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

breathedeep said:


> I'm sorry I wasn't able to get to the Active Listening practice yet; I will, I promise. Work has kept me very busy, and you see how my home life is, so...
> 
> Last night was very bad, but not for me, for my wife's children. My wife seems to be escalating and I am actually beginning to become very worried for her and her children.
> 
> I am also worried that she doesn't have any intention of seeing a counselor, but I will give her more time to see if she actually makes an appointment.


Escalating in what way breathedeep?


----------



## Grogmiester

manfromlamancha said:


> wmn1 I *would agree with you normally, but in this case there is no infidelity as far as I can see. * This really is a case of the husband needing to listen and empathise with his troubled wife.


OP mentions cheating in post # 135.


----------



## Middle of Everything

happy as a clam said:


> Wise words from a very wise woman...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have no dog in the fight so I dont think either of them should be complimented for their behavior in this thread.


----------



## Grogmiester

breathedeep said:


> This is my second marriage and my son is from my previous marriage. *She and I have no children together.*


Hey @breathedeep, I understand you're concerned for "her and her children". You and her do not have a child together. You both have children from previous relationships. Do you plan on having children together? If so ,,,,, just wondering if you've taken into consideration what you're going through right now? I don't recall you mentioning this in any of your posts.


----------



## breathedeep

*Re: Wife dropped a bomb on me last night*



Blossom Leigh said:


> Escalating in what way breathedeep?


She is becoming more angry, more prone to outbursts. The frequency of these types of events is increasing. She has begun treating her children the way she has been treating me. This is what happened last night.

As I've mentioned in previous threads, her children are difficult; both have ADHD, as well as trauma related behavioral issues stemming from their parent's marriage and subsequent divorce. Her children are 13 (boy) and 6 (girl).

My wife's daughter simply won't mind. She will not do as she is told. It is more than just being stubborn, she will just outright refuse to do things she is told to do and there is no getting her to budge. Going through the bedtime process is ALWAYS an ordeal. The last few weeks have been particularly problematic. Last night it took my wife 2 hours to get her to finally shower, in pajamas, and in the bed. I was downstairs exercising as I usually do when they are doing their bedtime routine. I received a text from my wife that she needed help. At the time I didn't know what she needed help with but I told her I would be right up (I had a feeling what it was about though). As I am coming up the steps, I can hear them yelling at each other.

As I walk into her daughter's room, her daughter is on the bed covering her mouth, crying, backing across the bed to get away from my wife, and refusing to get dressed. My wife is crying, yelling at her daughter, and swearing at her, saying she is ‘f**king sick of her behavior’ and that she was going to ‘whip her a*s if she didn’t get her f**king clothes on right now.’ She then begins screaming at me, telling me she cannot take it anymore, and that she feels like ‘ending’ things right now (suicide). I told her that she needed to calm down and I didn’t think it was appropriate to be talking like that in front of her daughter (meaning the swearing and saying she is going to kill herself). She got upset at me and said she needed me to come up and help, not give her a lecture. She then turned to her daughter, yelled at her again telling her to get dressed or she was going to spank her. Her daughter said she was scared of my wife. My wife told her daughter ‘This is all your ****ing fault!’ My wife turned back to me, crying still, grabbing her head/hair in both hands saying she couldn’t take it and she was ‘felt like ending it all.’ They were both crying, screaming at each other, and I didn't know what else to do, so I asked my wife to come with me for a minute so we could talk. She refused, saying she needed to get her daughter to bed. I told her that there was nothing I could do to help with that because he daughter listens to me even less than she listens to her. She got angry with me and told me to get out, which I did.

I went to our room, shaking, worried, confused, feeling broken. I feel like I am starting to lose myself.

When she finally came out of her daughter's room. We had a brief discussion before my wife fell asleep. She asked me how she should handle that situation because nothing works with her daughter. I told her that I do not know how to handle the situation because I understand she is in a difficult spot where her ex husband will try to take her kids away if she disciplines them incorrectly. I told her that she should try remaining calm with her daughter, and if she doesn't do as she is told, do not indulge in her tantrums. If she continues, she needs to lose privileges (and my wife needs to stick to the consequences because she has a habit of saying she is going to take away games, ipads, etc... and then doesn't do it). She said that she can ask nicely and her daughter won't listen and then resorts to yelling. She told me she wished she could control what she said, but that is the way she was raised and that she won't be able to stop. I also told her she should not swear at her daughter like that, or say she was going to kill herself, especially in front of her daughter. She agreed that she shouldn't say those things to her daughter, but that she says them out of exasperation.

This morning she sent this text.

The plan for me is still the same as before. IC & MC for she and I. I have found a counselor for me, I just need to make the call today. It is on my list of things to do. She and I will be going back to our MC next week.


----------



## breathedeep

Grogmiester said:


> Hey @breathedeep, I understand you're concerned for "her and her children". You and her do not have a child together. You both have children from previous relationships. Do you plan on having children together? If so ,,,,, just wondering if you've taken into consideration what you're going through right now? I don't recall you mentioning this in any of your posts.


I have had a vasectomy, so unless one slips past (which has been known to happen), no we do not have any plans to have more children together.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

@breathedeep ... Ok, its important for her to realize she *can* break this cycle. If I had been standing there I would have said I'm glad to hear you want to break the cycle of abuse, because I believe you can. Let's decide together that that is exactly what we are going to do and then gain the skills to end it. If what you tried in the past didn't work, let's keep looking and working on it until we find the solutions that do. I know other people who have done it and we can too."

That is the choice I made in my journey. I made a conscious decision to break the cycle of abuse I had grown up in and studied everything I could get my hands on in order to do that and it is still a work in progress. 
It's a daily walk. I'm encouraged that she is at this crisis point even though she is in a VERY dangerous state of mind and her daughter just caught the brunt of that which makes me intensely sad for her. 

I probably would have called a suicide hotline for her... 

Did you say you have your own counselor? I would reach out for sure in this situation. Keep surrounding yourself with your team.


----------



## breathedeep

Blossom Leigh said:


> @breathedeep I'm glad to hear you want to break the cycle of abuse, because I believe you can. Let's decide together that that is exactly what we are going to do and then gain the skills to end it. If what you tried in the past didn't work, let's keep looking and working on it until we find the solutions that do. I know other people who have done it and we can too."


I will say something like this tonight when she and I talk.



> Did you say you have your own counselor? I would reach out for sure in this situation. Keep surrounding yourself with your team.


I had one in early 2015, but she would give me hell about going to him because, 1) he was a christian counselor, and 2) she and I weren't yet married and he was encouraging me to leave her and move on. She didn't like either of those things. I stopped seeing him, but I found another counselor this week. I haven't called to set up an appointment yet, but her number is on my desk in front of me and I will do that as soon as I get back from lunch.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

breathedeep said:


> I will say something like this tonight when she and I talk.
> 
> 
> 
> I had one in early 2015, but she would give me hell about going to him because, 1) he was a christian counselor, and 2) she and I weren't yet married and he was encouraging me to leave her and move on. *She didn't like either of those things*. I stopped seeing him, but I found another counselor this week. I haven't called to set up an appointment yet, but her number is on my desk in front of me and I will do that as soon as I get back from lunch.


breathedeep, have you ever seen a list of attributes of a pathological abuser? One of the attributes is they want to isolate the person from any outside influence, church, family, friends, counselors, sometimes medical help. THAT is not a goods sign  

This is one of those cases where being empathetic, the active listening (which is good to a point) and being reasonable can begin to work against you. In persons with internal boundary problems they have a hard time discerned when the empathy becomes hyperempathy, when the active listening becomes a tool by which escalation is decreased just enough to allow me to stay in an abusive situation, where the reasonableness becomes hyper reasonableness. Does that make sense? Make sure you get a list of the attributes of a chronic pathological abuser. As much as we are all trying to help you do your personal best. I'm afraid most of the posters who are telling you to run are going to end up being right on this thread. Much like I used to be and still am to a certain degree, your danger radar is compromised. You will have to use outside input to help you form the best path out of this situation. One thing is for sure, it is unsustainable and I believe your best choice is to resolve to stay different or leave. If she doesn't respond to stay different in a VERY short amount of time, this one needs to be cut loose. And you will need to continue work on yourself to uncover the reasons why you allowed yourself this deep into an abusive relationship so that you pick safer going forward.


----------



## Pluto2

Wow. Just read this thread
@breathedeep, I feel the pain you are in. You are trying to navigate through a field of mental illness. Whether the source is CSA, or chemical imbalance BPD, or PTSD honestly won't matter a whole lot. There's no possible way any of us could properly diagnose her and none of us are trying. Clearly, she is disturbed, this is a new development, and she is unwilling to seek appropriate help. You love your wife but you simply cannot be the sole source of her recovery.

When someone is irrational, you cannot argue with them. And in my experience with my ex, when you attempt to enter their world of thought, they will try to pull you into their dysfunction. That's why I disagree with Sam's approach. Listening and understanding cannot overcome what your W is going through. And in most cases, the partner left to deal with a mentally ill partner will fall into depression, themselves, without adequate support of their own. So good for you for trying to develop a support system. There is nothing wrong or insensitive about having healthy boundaries. Her mental/emotional history may explain her escalating abusive behavior, but that does not mean it is acceptable. It is not. She is behaving inappropriately with her daughter and you.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

@Pluto2 Very well said.


----------



## Pluto2

Blossom Leigh said:


> @Pluto2 Very well said.


Thanks 
(my "like" button function is not working)


----------



## Idyit

@breathedeep

There are few threads that I feel like I have anything to add but yours struck me. Most often I with hold comment because there are a bunch of great folks here who do a excellent job of helping folks out.

I'm diving in because your situation has similarities to mine. And differences. My wife failed to tell me through 15 years of marriage that she had been raped in her early twenties. Little information about this was shared, she was reluctant to proceed any further. 

This was a confusing batch of data for me. It explained to a degree why we had certain issues in our sex life. I was kind of pissed that this was with held from me as it would have helped me understand her better. I questioned myself why she would not tell me. Did she not trust me? When, to my thinking, other more 'personal' details/events had been shared.

This was the beginning of a wake up call for me. Previously I had been looking through a different prizm. Now I had to completely refocus. Sex was not our only issue. Circular arguments, blame shifting, gas lighting, mirroring early in relationship, bait/switch with intimacy, always/never statement etc took on a new meaning and made me look at my wife and our relationship completely differently. Here on TAM it's a common statement that when a spouse cheats, your marriage as previously recognized is over. Likewise, when you wake up and see that your spouse is probably not functioning in a healthy manner, that marriage too is gone.

A major difference for a person whom you suspect of PD(CSA?) is that it won't go away. It doesn't just stop like an affair. The effort and work to repair your spouse AND your marriage AND yourself takes place while her behaviors continue. This is why so many will dissuade you from taking on this huge task.

Squabbles about how you did or should have handled recent conversations are iceberg tip material. Can you be patient to work with her through PD/CSA? Are you able to look at infidelity as a symptom of the above and put it on hold for a time? Will you be able to look at your part in the marriage and grow as a man at the same time? Is it possible to do all of this while concurrently keeping the rest of your life afloat?

Is your marriage worth this kind of sacrifice and effort? If so, get out front and learn all you can about your marital and personal issues. Stay in IC and show her the benefit. Surround yourself with people who love you and can support you. If you're a praying man, do so. A lot.

~ Passio


----------



## Grogmiester

breathedeep said:


> I have had a vasectomy, so unless one slips past (which has been known to happen), no we do not have any plans to have more children together.


 @breathedeep, I'm breathing (and probably a few others) a sigh of relief that you've had a vasectomy. 

Sounds like you had a rough night. Reading about your interaction last made me think back to my experience. 

Her outburst scared her daughter. Heck it scared you. This was tamatice for everyone. Be aware school systems today are trained to look for children with emotional issues. 

If either of her children (or your child) were to mention what happened last night to a teacher they would be bound by law to report it. You said she's scared her XH will take the children from her and with this behavior she might just get that plus a whole lot more. 

If Children's Services were to get involved it might affect the current custody arrangement you have with your XW. There's no way your XW would not hear about it because they interview everyone in the house hold even if it's only a couple of weekends a month.

You might think about her outbursts when you have your son on your weekends. What would happen if he witnessed an altercation like last night and told your XW about it. I suspect she would not just sweep it under the rug.

I'm not bringing these things up because I think they will happen but when you're dealing with your wife's issues you can get tunnel vision. All your step daughter has to say is "mommy scares me" "she wants to end it all" to a teacher and your situation could multiply 10 fold.

I've / we've mentioned personal boundries because they are "your boundries". I think you need to think about boundries in regards to your son. Unfortunately since you're a step dad those boundries for your step child's might be limited since she'll over rule you as "their mom".


----------



## Annie123

Pluto2 said:


> Wow. Just read this thread
> 
> @breathedeep, I feel the pain you are in. You are trying to navigate through a field of mental illness. Whether the source is CSA, or chemical imbalance BPD, or PTSD honestly won't matter a whole lot. There's no possible way any of us could properly diagnose her and none of us are trying. Clearly, she is disturbed, this is a new development, and she is unwilling to seek appropriate help. You love your wife but you simply cannot be the sole source of her recovery.
> 
> When someone is irrational, you cannot argue with them. And in my experience with my ex, when you attempt to enter their world of thought, they will try to pull you into their dysfunction. *That's why I disagree with Sam's approach.* Listening and understanding cannot overcome what your W is going through. And in most cases, the partner left to deal with a mentally ill partner will fall into depression, themselves, without adequate support of their own. So good for you for trying to develop a support system. There is nothing wrong or insensitive about having healthy boundaries. Her mental/emotional history may explain her escalating abusive behavior, but that does not mean it is acceptable. It is not. She is behaving inappropriately with her daughter and you.


Exactly. 


> JLD,
> 
> I'm no saint, but thanks anyway. I'm sorry, but I just can't stay in a toxic place like this. What you have said about these people hurting themselves is all true, *BUT part of staying with my wife means I endure searing heartache EVERY SINGLE DAY and it has been accumulating for nearly 28 years. It's nearly suffocating, but I love my wife and I am still hoping for a win/win solution.* And all the pain means it's very hard for me to deal with the vitriol that I see here and other places I have been. *Maybe someday if/when I get my wife thru this, I will feel strong enough to help others who are simply voicing their pain. But right now my own pain is so overwhelming I simply can't take on their pain too.*
> 
> Take care,
> 
> Sam


----------



## Grogmiester

@breathedeep I understand you've found a counselor for yourself. This is good. I know you're gong to try to help her with getting IC and MC possibly for both of you.

Have you thought about what you would have to do if you decide to pull the pin on this marriage and go?

Let me say this. Just because you make a list of the steps you'd need to take to leave this marriage doesn't mean you're not "all in" at this moment. I don't know what your financial situation is. 

Are there joint cc's, mortgage, savings etc. I would make that list of the steps required to exit your marriage and keep it in a secret location from your wife. Her finding that would make her go nuclear. 

Proper planning doesn't hurt, let's just think of it as hedging your bet.


----------



## wmn1

manfromlamancha said:


> wmn1 I would agree with you normally, but in this case there is no infidelity as far as I can see. This really is a case of the husband needing to listen and empathise with his troubled wife.


yeah I get it. She shows a few signs of possible infidelity but it's not a red flag the size of most threads here. As Grog said, OP mentions cheating in post 135. Again, I usually agree with you both here and on SI, but just not here and that's ok.

The needing to listen and empathize with her, though, I think it's the other way around at this point. He's been doing that. She hasn't. She's been fighting it the whole way.

I believe this is on her at this point regarding being the problematic one and she definitely needs some type of IC but it just seems from this thread and where it's going, he's talking to a brick wall at this point and is even being subjected to her hiding things and her verbal abuse. Of course we only have his version of the story now but from what he describes, she needs help. More than he can provide


----------



## breathedeep

wmn1 said:


> I believe this is on her at this point regarding being the problematic one and she definitely needs some type of IC but it just seems from this thread and where it's going, he's talking to a brick wall at this point and is even being subjected to her hiding things and her verbal abuse. *Of course we only have his version of the story* now but from what he describes, she needs help. More than he can provide


I know this is problematic, but I try to post our full, unedited conversations when I have them so that her side can be seen as much as possible. I am thankful that she has a habit of texting me the next morning about our previous night's conversation. Aside from bringing her into the thread (which I am not completely taking off the table at this time), let me know if there is anything else I can do to help give the full picture as objectively as possible. As I've said before, I am striving for a workable solution towards a healthy marriage with my wife; posting skewed information in my favor (although I acknowledge this is unavoidable to some degree since I can ONLY post from my viewpoint) would not be conducive to such a resolution.


----------



## breathedeep

Blossom Leigh said:


> breathedeep, have you ever seen a list of attributes of a pathological abuser? One of the attributes is they want to isolate the person from any outside influence, church, family, friends, counselors, sometimes medical help. THAT is not a goods sign


Last night as I was waiting in my room for my wife, I was looking up signs of verbal abuse. I found this website: Welcome to VerbalAbuseofMen.com home page

Reading through it made me come to a very big realization, and made me very sad for my kids and what I have done to them.


----------



## turnera

A couple things about the kids. First, what you could have done was gently hugged your wife and see if she'd let you walk her out of the room where you could have calmed her down.

When she said she couldn't leave because the DD 'had' to get dressed (false, right?), you could calmly say "I know, and I'm going to make sure she gets dressed, but right now I want to help YOU. I'll be right back in here helping her get dressed after I make sure you're all right." You saying 'I don't know what to do is adding to her stress; she needs to hear that the man in her life can take charge and help her and fix things - especially when she asked you to.

Second, you can at the very least teach her the breathing technique, see if she'll do it. Look each other in the eyes (or not), ask her to take a deep breath while you count 1, 2, 3...Then she holds the breath for 3, then you count back down as she exhales. It physically calms the body, but it also redirects her thinking away from the crisis. By the time you've done that two or three times, she should be able to deal with things again.

Just calling 911 would have 'proven' to her that she can't trust you; you don't need that right now. Of course if she takes action to hurt herself, do call.

Third, you two need to educate yourself on authoritative parenting. Become experts at it. It takes the emotion out of the parenting, gives the kid stability, holds them accountable, and keeps everyone loving everyone else. 

Print these out and tell her you went searching for how to help her deal with DD6. Read them, talk about them, and come up with 'rules' about how you'll handle specific examples. Oh, and you might want to binge watch a couple dozen SuperNanny episodes so she'll see the pattern (SuperNanny follows the authoritative parenting model, which is the preferred method among professionals). I used it without knowing I was doing it, and DD25 is just about the only one of all her friends who turned out pretty ok. 

Characteristics of the Authoritative Parenting Style
The Only Parenting Model You Need ? Developmental Science
https://www.foundationscounselingllc.com/authoritative-parenting.php


----------



## michzz

Forgive me for not reading every page in this thread, but I want to comment.

If she finally fesses up to not liking sex and has suffered abuse in the past, then I do not understand why she wants you to agree to NOT discuss it with the health professional you both were seeing.

It leaves you with no out, no way to resolve the issue in a positive way without the aid of a health professional. No satisfying sexual encounters with her. No way to fix it. I don't think you should buy into her solution because it is not a solution!

Will she react with negativity? Of course! But so what. Honestly, you're not trying to abuse her. You want genuine closeness and intimacy with her.

If that really is not possible, better to find out with the help of a trained professional that on your own.

And if it is possible, the guidance will be invaluable to you both.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

breathedeep said:


> Last night as I was waiting in my room for my wife, I was looking up signs of verbal abuse. I found this website: Welcome to VerbalAbuseofMen.com home page
> 
> Reading through it made me come to a very big realization, and made me very sad for my kids and what I have done to them.


Hey... the smartest thing you can do is take that knowledge and change course. Realize the mistake and shift to mitigating further damage.


----------



## turnera

breathedeep said:


> Last night as I was waiting in my room for my wife, I was looking up signs of verbal abuse. I found this website: Welcome to VerbalAbuseofMen.com home page
> 
> Reading through it made me come to a very big realization, and made me very sad for my kids and what I have done to them.


I have to say, if you have your own kids living with you and her and her kids, I might be tempted to just walk away, because my duty to MY child is more important than my duty to my wife. And causing your child to live with a woman as messed up with her will only hurt him (probably). Unless he sees you staying out of love and finally getting her help and having everything fixed. 

But how long do you wait? How long do you try? The whole of your kid's childhood? By then, you have imprinted the problems on him for the rest of his life.


----------



## breathedeep

Pluto2 said:


> Wow. Just read this thread
> 
> @breathedeep, I feel the pain you are in. You are trying to navigate through a field of mental illness. Whether the source is CSA, or chemical imbalance BPD, or PTSD honestly won't matter a whole lot. There's no possible way any of us could properly diagnose her and none of us are trying. Clearly, she is disturbed, this is a new development, and she is unwilling to seek appropriate help. You love your wife but you simply cannot be the sole source of her recovery.
> 
> When someone is irrational, you cannot argue with them. And in my experience with my ex, when you attempt to enter their world of thought, they will try to pull you into their dysfunction. That's why I disagree with Sam's approach. Listening and understanding cannot overcome what your W is going through. And in most cases, the partner left to deal with a mentally ill partner will fall into depression, themselves, without adequate support of their own. So good for you for trying to develop a support system. There is nothing wrong or insensitive about having healthy boundaries. Her mental/emotional history may explain her escalating abusive behavior, but that does not mean it is acceptable. It is not. She is behaving inappropriately with her daughter and you.


I believe the reason this has been escalating with her is because she has been feeling the facade fall away, and she has fears abandonment when someone finally sees 'the real her'. At that point, it is an exponential increase as the process, emotion, reaction feeds on itself. Once she and I got married, I was now 'family' and in her subconscious, the most unsafe person in her life and half of her is telling her to push me away while the other half is afraid of being abandoned.

I don't know that she is unwilling yet. She reluctantly says she is going to get help. Now time will only tell.


----------



## breathedeep

turnera said:


> A couple things about the kids. First, what you could have done was gently hugged your wife and see if she'd let you walk her out of the room where you could have calmed her down.
> 
> When she said she couldn't leave because the DD 'had' to get dressed (false, right?), you could calmly say "I know, and I'm going to make sure she gets dressed, but right now I want to help YOU. I'll be right back in here helping her get dressed after I make sure you're all right." You saying 'I don't know what to do is adding to her stress; she needs to hear that the man in her life can take charge and help her and fix things - especially when she asked you to.
> 
> Second, you can at the very least teach her the breathing technique, see if she'll do it. Look each other in the eyes (or not), ask her to take a deep breath while you count 1, 2, 3...Then she holds the breath for 3, then you count back down as she exhales. It physically calms the body, but it also redirects her thinking away from the crisis. By the time you've done that two or three times, she should be able to deal with things again.
> 
> Just calling 911 would have 'proven' to her that she can't trust you; you don't need that right now. Of course if she takes action to hurt herself, do call.
> 
> Third, you two need to educate yourself on authoritative parenting. Become experts at it. It takes the emotion out of the parenting, gives the kid stability, holds them accountable, and keeps everyone loving everyone else.
> 
> Print these out and tell her you went searching for how to help her deal with DD6. Read them, talk about them, and come up with 'rules' about how you'll handle specific examples. Oh, and you might want to binge watch a couple dozen SuperNanny episodes so she'll see the pattern (SuperNanny follows the authoritative parenting model, which is the preferred method among professionals). I used it without knowing I was doing it, and DD25 is just about the only one of all her friends who turned out pretty ok.
> 
> Characteristics of the Authoritative Parenting Style
> The Only Parenting Model You Need ? Developmental Science
> https://www.foundationscounselingllc.com/authoritative-parenting.php


Thank you. This is unbelievably helpful. Also, I am going to send her the links now. She will be very appreciative, and so am I.


----------



## breathedeep

michzz said:


> Forgive me for not reading every page in this thread, but I want to comment.
> 
> *If she finally fesses up to not liking sex and has suffered abuse in the past, then I do not understand why she wants you to agree to NOT discuss it with the health professional you both were seeing.*
> 
> It leaves you with no out, no way to resolve the issue in a positive way without the aid of a health professional. No satisfying sexual encounters with her. No way to fix it. I don't think you should buy into her solution because it is not a solution!
> 
> Will she react with negativity? Of course! But so what. Honestly, you're not trying to abuse her. You want genuine closeness and intimacy with her.
> 
> If that really is not possible, better to find out with the help of a trained professional that on your own.
> 
> And if it is possible, the guidance will be invaluable to you both.


She stands by what she said - that sex is very difficult for her. What she has now changed her mind about is speaking to our current MC about the issue. She has agreed to speak with him. I think she has set up the appointment for next week, but I haven't had a chance to check back in with her on this.

You are correct though. If she refuses to talk about it, then I am absolutely in a no-win situation.


----------



## breathedeep

turnera said:


> I have to say, if you have your own kids living with you and her and her kids, I might be tempted to just walk away, because my duty to MY child is more important than my duty to my wife. And causing your child to live with a woman as messed up with her will only hurt him (probably). Unless he sees you staying out of love and finally getting her help and having everything fixed.
> 
> But how long do you wait? How long do you try? The whole of your kid's childhood? By then, you have imprinted the problems on him for the rest of his life.


I am looking at this carefully. It is weighing on me very heavily. I will give it some time to see if she and I can get some help, but if not, I will need to leave. If not for me, for my son and daughter because I absolutely do not want to continue setting the bad example that I have so far.

Something I haven't said in this thread yet is how it is affecting my children. My daughter who is 10 years old, has begun picking up on the tension around the house. She asks me if I am ok - something she has never asked me before. She has begun saying she doesn't want to be left alone with my wife because she treats her badly, yells at her, and criticizes her. Keep in mind that things used to be good between them. For example, my daughter used to choose to ride with my wife when we'd go out to eat because she was 'fun and listened to the music loud with the windows down'.

My son heard the exchange last night between my wife and her daughter. When I went in to tuck him in, he asked me if they were OK. He then said his stomach was hurting and he didn't feel good. I wondered if the argument they were having caused his stomach ache. This hit me VERY hard last night.


----------



## Pluto2

I can share that my ex was verbally and emotionally abuse towards me and our daughters. After one of his "attacks" my girls would run and hide in their closets, in tears, and ask why their father hated them. Very dark times. Believing I could take care of it all, I would tell the ex his behavior was unacceptable, and then try to remind my girls that this was his illness that was talking. It did no good. 

My ex had major recurrent depression with anxiety and paranoia (and no, I'm not diagnosing your W, nor do I believe all of my ex's behavior applies to your spouse) One of the therapists shared with me that this was an incredibly selfish illness. The person suffering will take every event, every occurrence and focus it on them. Every approaching car will look like it intends to hit him, every person he passes will be viewed as someone who looks down on him, every conversation is a challenge to his focus, or power, or mentality. I brought quesso dip home and he accused me of trying to kill him. There was no level of understanding that impacted his thought process. Its this part of my ex's illness that I see in your W. She views most conversations as an attack. I didn't, at least not based on what you've posted. She did. Saying you want a healthy sex life with your wife is not blaming or accusing her of anything. She views everything mentioning sex as an attack on her. Maybe you are correct and it is her defense mechanism. It is not a healthy one.

During most of the bad times with my ex, my only non-negotiable for staying in the marriage was that he attempt treatment. He did-for a bit. Then he stopped (and lied about that), and things definitely fell apart, on all kinds of levels. I discovered he was a serial cheater. I hope you dodge that part. Trust that she is sincere in seeking help, but demand some accountability, too. Saying she is going to get hep is all well and good, but it is also reasonable on your part, to place a timeline on that.


----------



## AliceA

Honestly, if you are going to stay I think you need to step in and protect the children more. Regardless of who is their parent, no adult should stand idly by while a child is being abused.


----------



## Annie123

breathedeep said:


> *I believe the reason this has been escalating with her is because she has been feeling the facade fall away, and she has fears abandonment when someone finally sees 'the real her'.* At that point, it is an exponential increase as the process, emotion, reaction feeds on itself. Once she and I got married, I was now 'family' and in her subconscious, the most unsafe person in her life and half of her is telling her to push me away while the other half is afraid of being abandoned.
> 
> I don't know that she is unwilling yet. She reluctantly says she is going to get help. Now time will only tell.


If this behavior is new to her (after the sex conversation), why did your therapist from before you two got married suggest you leave her?
You were already in MC when the sex conversation happened. Why did you go to MC in the first place?


----------



## turnera

breathedeep said:


> I am looking at this carefully. It is weighing on me very heavily. I will give it some time to see if she and I can get some help, but if not, I will need to leave. If not for me, for my son and daughter because I absolutely do not want to continue setting the bad example that I have so far.
> 
> Something I haven't said in this thread yet is how it is affecting my children. My daughter who is 10 years old, has begun picking up on the tension around the house. She asks me if I am ok - something she has never asked me before. She has begun saying she doesn't want to be left alone with my wife because she treats her badly, yells at her, and criticizes her. Keep in mind that things used to be good between them. For example, my daughter used to choose to ride with my wife when we'd go out to eat because she was 'fun and listened to the music loud with the windows down'.
> 
> My son heard the exchange last night between my wife and her daughter. When I went in to tuck him in, he asked me if they were OK. He then said his stomach was hurting and he didn't feel good. I wondered if the argument they were having caused his stomach ache. This hit me VERY hard last night.


It absolutely caused his stomach ache. You'll read about that all.the.time if you read up on kids and family problems - that's the number one complaint the school nurses get from kids in troubled homes.

So I'll tell you what I did. My H isn't nearly as bad as your wife, but he is pretty messed up. And he won't recognize it. He's 99% negative, controlling, criticizes, guilts, is passive aggressive, but he can also be fun. So it was confusing to DD25 when she was growing up - how can someone so fun to be around also make her feel so bad? Now remember that kids fill a vacuum with what they know at their age, which isn't much. So she was starting to assume that SHE was messed up because Dad was an adult, so he couldn't be messed up. So I started talking to her. Honestly. I told her that Dad loves her more than life itself, but that adults aren't perfect. That Dad had a really bad childhood growing up and because of it, he sometimes has trouble making things feel good in OUR family, but it doesn't mean he doesn't love her. That when he does something that makes her feel funny, she should come to me and talk about it, because Dad won't be able to understand it or even see it. And that's ok, cos he's still a great Dad, right? 

And when I'd find a particular issue he'd do and I was able to, I'd tie it back to HIS childhood, so she could understand that what he did was because of THAT, had nothing to do with HER. And that helped her a lot. 

I also started taking her to a therapist when she was around 14 and that helped a lot. Example: When she was a junior in high school, he still wouldn't let her go to the mall without him or me(!). So I made him go to her therapist with her and me, and the therapist gently out-logicked him, to the point that he had to agree that it wasn't healthy that she couldn't do these things that all teenagers do.

Like I said, she turned out more normal, healthy than just about any of her friends. And now she's a Psych grad student. 

By talking about it all, she was able to remove HER self from what was going on, and analyze it like a specimen. As a result, she has a really good sense of self. She's still really emotional, though, has lots of his characteristics, like catastrophizing, so she WAS highly affected by the stress in the household, and it's become part of who she is. And even today, her first thoughts - just like me - about anything important are 'what will Dad say about it? Will he get upset? How can I phrase this so he doesn't blow up about it?' That's not healthy. When she started dating her boyfriend two years ago, at 23(!), she wanted to sleep over at his apartment but she was afraid of what her dad would say.  I was like, come on, you gotta start doing adult things, stop worrying about what Dad says, you have to break free. But it was still hard for her.

But bottom line, my insisting on talking to her, all.the.time, is the one thing that's helped her more than anything. We got in the habit of going for walks (I read about it somewhere and started doing it with her when she was about 12), and through the years, whenever she was stressed about something, she'd ask me if we could go for a walk. She considers me her best friend now. 

But I'll tell you: Many days, I wish I would have left when she was younger, so that she'd have had ONE home where everything was safe and upbeat and positive and stress-free, because I think if she'd had that, she would have BECOME that for the most part.


----------



## happy as a clam

jld said:


> Breathedeep has said he can filter.


Yes, but that does not mean that he should have to wade ankle-deep through muck.

bd.... Buckle up. It's going to be a bumpy ride...


----------



## breathedeep

Annie123 said:


> If this behavior is new to her (after the sex conversation), why did your therapist from before you two got married suggest you leave her?
> You were already in MC when the sex conversation happened. Why did you go to MC in the first place?


It is not necessarily new. The anger and verbal abuse really started getting serious after she and I moved in together in late December of 2014. That is when I really began questioning my sanity and wondering what was going on. When I would talk to her about it, she would say I was imagining things, that I was being a crybaby, too sensitive, and she would call me a pu$*y and would tell me to man up. I began seeing a therapist in early 2015 because of the issues that were beginning to crop up. This is when I first started asking her if she and I could find a counselor together before we got married. She wouldn't go. She said she was embarrassed that we weren't even married and already needed MC. I finally just ended up going for myself.

I was telling him about her phone, her hiding things, lying, being very secretive. I only went to a few sessions and his advice was that I should reconsider my relationship with her. She would ask me how my sessions went and I would tell her honestly. From there she was full-on discrediting him for various reasons, but mainly she said because he was christian and she didn't like how he was trying to break us up. I take responsibility for allowing her to talk me out of going back.

Since she and I got married, the situation has gotten exponentially worse. This is why I insisted on MC, through the help of TAM, as was seen in some of my other threads and this one. She told me about the sexual abuse and how it was causing her issues and us issues in our marriage the evening we had our first MC session.


----------



## happy as a clam

breathedeep said:


> As I've said before, I am striving for a workable solution towards a healthy marriage with my wife...


:banghead:

WHAT ARE YOU MISSING HERE?? WHAT HAVE WE STATED (myself and others) THAT YOU DON'T "GET"?

Your wife is *mentally ill.* There is no "workable solution" given her current state of mind... There is no "healthy marriage" given her current state of mind.

*1%* of BPDers get better. ONE PERCENT. The other 99% just keep inflicting interminable pain on their partners.

As Dr. Phil says (I accept incoming 2x4s at the mention of Dr. Phil)... "You CANNOT reason with *UNREASONABLE* people."


----------



## Annie123

breathedeep said:


> It is not necessarily new. The anger and verbal abuse really started getting serious after she and I moved in together in late December of 2014. That is when I really began questioning my sanity and wondering what was going on. When I would talk to her about it, she would say I was imagining things, that I was being a crybaby, too sensitive, and she would call me a pu$*y and would tell me to man up. I began seeing a therapist in early 2015 because of the issues that were beginning to crop up. This is when I first started asking her if she and I could find a counselor together before we got married. She wouldn't go. She said she was embarrassed that we weren't even married and already needed MC. I finally just ended up going for myself.
> 
> I was telling him about her phone, her hiding things, lying, being very secretive. I only went to a few sessions and his advice was that I should reconsider my relationship with her. She would ask me how my sessions went and I would tell her honestly. From there she was full-on discrediting him for various reasons, but mainly she said because he was christian and she didn't like how he was trying to break us up. I take responsibility for allowing her to talk me out of going back.
> 
> Since she and I got married, the situation has gotten exponentially worse. This is why I insisted on MC, through the help of TAM, as was seen in some of my other threads and this one. She told me about the sexual abuse and how it was causing her issues and us issues in our marriage the evening we had our first MC session. That leads us here.


That really sounds horrible and familiar  You're not alone, OP.
You have to protect your kids and also her kid as much as you can. They rely on their parents to provide them with a safe environment in which they can grow into healthy adults. They learn from you and her and will one day mirror your behaviors. 

I keep wondering about one thing... If you are the one triggering her fears, why is she lashing out at the kids too? Some say she no longer sees you as a safe person due to her abuse but if all of this is directed towards you, why take it out on the kids too? To me, that's plain BPD behavior (fear of engulfment/abandonment).

I really hope the therapist you found is good and you already have an appointment set up with her.


----------



## happy as a clam

breathedeep said:


> Since she and I got married, the situation has gotten exponentially worse.


Yes, because she is certifiable.

You CANNOT fix *cRaZy.....*


----------



## happy as a clam

breathedeep said:


> ...Something I haven't said in this thread yet is *how it is affecting my children*...
> 
> ...My daughter who is 10 years old, *has begun picking up on the tension around the house.*
> 
> ...When I went in to tuck him in, *he asked me if they were OK. He then said his stomach was hurting and he didn't feel good.* I wondered if the argument they were having caused his stomach ache. This hit me VERY hard last night.


Ok, this is breaking my heart.

For the love of Pete, GET YOUR CHILDREN OUT OF THIS HOT MESS that *YOU* have brought upon them...

Why on earth do you want to "save" this woman (and this marriage) when she is destroying YOU and YOUR CHILDREN???


----------



## Blossom Leigh

breathedeep said:


> I am looking at this carefully. It is weighing on me very heavily. I will give it some time to see if she and I can get some help, but if not, I will need to leave. If not for me, for my son and daughter because I absolutely do not want to continue setting the bad example that I have so far.
> 
> Something I haven't said in this thread yet is how it is affecting my children. My daughter who is 10 years old, has begun picking up on the tension around the house. She asks me if I am ok - something she has never asked me before. She has begun saying she doesn't want to be left alone with my wife because she treats her badly, yells at her, and criticizes her. Keep in mind that things used to be good between them. For example, my daughter used to choose to ride with my wife when we'd go out to eat because she was 'fun and listened to the music loud with the windows down'.
> 
> My son heard the exchange last night between my wife and her daughter. When I went in to tuck him in, he asked me if they were OK. He then said his stomach was hurting and he didn't feel good. I wondered if the argument they were having caused his stomach ache. This hit me VERY hard last night.


I didn't see the rest of this when I first liked it. I'm glad that hit you hard last night. That is when I changed course too, when my son was being affected. That's when I knew for sure my danger radar is broken. This confirms for me that your's is broken as well.


----------



## breathedeep

Grogmiester said:


> Have you thought about what you would have to do if you decide to pull the pin on this marriage and go?
> 
> Let me say this. Just because you make a list of the steps you'd need to take to leave this marriage doesn't mean you're not "all in" at this moment. I don't know what your financial situation is.
> 
> Are there joint cc's, mortgage, savings etc. I would make that list of the steps required to exit your marriage and keep it in a secret location from your wife. Her finding that would make her go nuclear.
> 
> Proper planning doesn't hurt, let's just think of it as hedging your bet.


Yes, I've thought about it. And yes, she would absolutely lose it if she found anything like this.

She has been storing away money since she and I have been together. It is her 'backup' plan just in case she and I don't work out. I started doing the same a few months ago, which I mentioned in another thread. She and I have separate bank accounts that we use as our own 'play' money. We have a joint account for bills.

I own a house, but it isn't in her name. I am in the process of selling it though and should do well since there is quite a bit of equity. I'm not sure how that would work though, if I would need to split it with her since she and I are now married. I'll have to look into this.

I have paid all of my credit cards down, so I am good on debt, aside from student loans and my mortgage payment that is being taken care of by tenants.

My credit is mid to high 700s, so I'm good there.

I could move quickly should I decide that it has come to that point.


----------



## AliceA

breathedeep said:


> It is not necessarily new. The anger and verbal abuse really started getting serious after she and I moved in together in late December of 2014. That is when I really began questioning my sanity and wondering what was going on. When I would talk to her about it, she would say I was imagining things, that I was being a crybaby, too sensitive, and she would call me a pu$*y and would tell me to man up. I began seeing a therapist in early 2015 because of the issues that were beginning to crop up. This is when I first started asking her if she and I could find a counselor together before we got married. She wouldn't go. She said she was embarrassed that we weren't even married and already needed MC. I finally just ended up going for myself.
> 
> I was telling him about her phone, her hiding things, lying, being very secretive. I only went to a few sessions and his advice was that I should reconsider my relationship with her. She would ask me how my sessions went and I would tell her honestly. From there she was full-on discrediting him for various reasons, but mainly she said because he was christian and she didn't like how he was trying to break us up. I take responsibility for allowing her to talk me out of going back.
> 
> Since she and I got married, the situation has gotten exponentially worse. This is why I insisted on MC, through the help of TAM, as was seen in some of my other threads and this one. She told me about the sexual abuse and how it was causing her issues and us issues in our marriage the evening we had our first MC session.


I had a similar thing happen. I went to IC a long while ago trying to deal with depression. I remember them basically telling me my relationship at the time was the root cause of it. They were right but I wasn't ready to act on it, so I did other things to lessen the stress in my life and kept the relationship. It took me a couple of years to end it. I guess you weren't ready to hear it either. Unfortunate that you decided to get married in the meantime.


----------



## Annie123

Doing OK, breathedeep?


----------



## JonJon96

I feel your pain brother. My situation is very similar. My wife also has mental health issues that she hid from me until after marriage. She pretended to enjoy intimacy until about a year after marriage when she confessed she was faking enjoying it for most of our marriage. She had a similar breakdown from her exhausting acting role. She developed vaginismus and sex became painful. I plead, bargained and negotiated with her to address her sexual dysfunction and lack of intimacy for 6 years. It tore us apart because she refused to address it until I served an ultimatum- Divorce or treatment. She doesn't love herself and is incapable of loving someone else. Now I am planning for the divorce because she has basically given up on herself. In turn she has given up on the M and the family. Trust me when I say that everything gets exponentially worse in the relationship the longer you have intimacy issues. It will erode communication, cause resentment and make it so much harder to fall in love again. 

I was told all the same things you are being told. Support her while she gets help. What they don't tell you is that there is no hope for a woman that is too cowardice to face her fears even with a H and kids to lose. I've stuck by her side through nearly 3yrs of counseling and dozens of MC sessions. If she doesn't put the effort in during those sessions, communicate to her that your support is conditional. It doesn't mean you don't love her, but you are only enabling her to crawl back into the corner, taking the easy way out. I'm tired of giving my kids poor examples of parenting. I want them to have a happy stable home, even if that means seeing them less.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I like that jonjon. "Too cowardice to face her fears." Very accurate wording because it *can* be overwhelming and feel insurmountable. You are right. It takes a tremendous amount of courage to face it and begin dismantling it when it feels like your insides are coming apart. Therefore those who do choose courage give a tremendous gift to themselves and those they love, past, present and future.


----------



## JohnA

The one fact I keep coming back to, and it amazes me. She told you but not a tong term therapist. Why you ? 
It is actually the one thing I find hopeful in your marriage. She has abandonment issues and yet told you the one thing she thpught would drive you away. A calculated move to force you to file for divorce ( making you the bad guy), a plea for help or both. 

Stay strong and learn more about CSA and the lifelong effects of it. Read @Uptown posts


----------



## Wazza

JohnA said:


> The one fact I keep coming back to, and it amazes me. She told you but not a tong term therapist. Why you ?
> It is actually the one thing I find hopeful in your marriage. She has abandonment issues and yet told you the one thing she thpught would drive you away. A calculated move to force you to file for divorce ( making you the bad guy), a plea for help or both.
> 
> Stay strong and learn more about CSA and the lifelong effects of it. Read @Uptown posts


Are you getting advice from a range of qualified sources? TAM is a great place to gather ideas, but you need to verify what you learn here if you are going to act on it.


----------



## Pluto2

[MENTION=204833]Breathedeep, are you ok?


----------



## breathedeep

Annie123 said:


> Doing OK, breathedeep?


Yep, doing OK. Thanks for asking.

My wife and I have been getting along a bit better. We have another session with our MC this Friday. She wants to discuss with him the 'ultimatum' I gave her and how it has damaged our relationship. I'll let everyone know how it goes.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

breathedeep said:


> Yep, doing OK. Thanks for asking.
> 
> My wife and I have been getting along a bit better. We have another session with our MC this Friday. She wants to discuss with him the 'ultimatum' I gave her and how it has damaged our relationship. I'll let everyone know how it goes.


Accountability... her behavior damaged the relationship, not your accountability. Was it perfect, no, but her out of control anger came first is the real issue here. Her wanting to triangle in a counselor so that she can prove her point that you are the problem and not her is no progress whatsoever.

*Abuse by proxy* - "If all else fails,* the abuser recruits *friends, colleagues, mates, family members,* the authorities*, institutions, neighbours, the media, teachers – in short, third parties –* to do his bidding*. *He uses them to *cajole, coerce, threaten, stalk, offer, retreat, tempt,* convince*, harass, communicate* and otherwise manipulate his target*. *He controls these unaware instruments exactly as he plans to control his ultimate prey. He employs the same mechanisms and devices. And he dumps his props unceremoniously when the job is done."
*
http://samvak.tripod.com/abuse11.html


----------



## turnera

Yeah I thought that as soon as she said "I'm going to tell on you to the MC." You have to learn the art of saying "I'm sorry you feel that way" - even in front of, or TO, the MC. They can both tell you whatever they want about how THEY feel YOU should be acting. Doesn't mean you have to do it. 

Or...you could gather up as much evidence of her crazy and her abuse and bring THAT to the MC on Friday and just plop it down on the table and say 'explain THAT.'


----------



## Pluto2

turnera said:


> Yeah I thought that as soon as she said "I'm going to tell on you to the MC." You have to learn the art of saying "I'm sorry you feel that way" - even in front of, or TO, the MC. They can both tell you whatever they want about how THEY feel YOU should be acting. Doesn't mean you have to do it.
> 
> Or...you could gather up as much evidence of her crazy and her abuse and bring THAT to the MC on Friday and just plop it down on the table and say 'explain THAT.'


Isn't that asking the MC to pick sides? My limited experience suggests they will refrain from doing that. Its more "I see why you might feel that way." It might be more helpful to say you were at the end of your rope in dealing with the angry outbursts and saw no alternative other than the ultimatum. That could give the MC an opening to suggest to both of you an acceptable alternative. Just remember that you always have the option to say, this current behavior isn't acceptable. Boundaries are not ultimatums.


----------



## turnera

You mean taking the proof? I suggest doing that in case she starts pulling out the 'he's a monster' crap she's liable to do, so that he can prove that it's actually not true - so that they can get back to the MIDDLE and talk about what BOTH of them need to do.

And I agree to talk about the boundaries in MC. THAT to me is the key to all this.


----------



## Annie123

To me it seems like she wants to manipulate you into not going to MC. Don't let her.
Stay strong!

It's good to hear that you two have been getting along well. At least you can get some 'rest' mentally from all the chaos. Just be prepared for the next outburst because it WILL happen.

Have you done any talking recently? In my case, my husband and I get along just fine as long as I don't bring up any of our issues. If we just stay on the surface and pretend everything is OK, we can go days and maybe even weeks without 'fighting', or at least til something or someone else upsets him.

If you're not fighting just because you don't bring up your issues any more, then you're not really not fighting, you're kind of rug sweeping or postponing the inevitable.


----------



## breathedeep

turnera said:


> Yeah I thought that as soon as she said "I'm going to tell on you to the MC." You have to learn the art of saying "I'm sorry you feel that way" - even in front of, or TO, the MC. They can both tell you whatever they want about how THEY feel YOU should be acting. Doesn't mean you have to do it.


I have said this often, which really angers her because she feels like it is a non-response and that I am not acknowledging her feelings. I think she even references that in some of the conversations I've posted.



> Or...you could gather up as much evidence of her crazy and her abuse and bring THAT to the MC on Friday and just plop it down on the table and say 'explain THAT.'


I don't plan on allowing her to throw me under the bus without her taking any responsibility, but I also don't want to go in and get into a 'look how terrible he/she is' battle by each of us throwing mud at each other with the sole purpose of showing how crazy the other is.

I have been keeping good notes on the recent events and have recordings, so I will be bringing those on Friday.


----------



## breathedeep

Annie123 said:


> To me it seems like she wants to manipulate you into not going to MC. Don't let her.
> Stay strong!
> 
> It's good to hear that you two have been getting along well. At least you can get some 'rest' mentally from all the chaos. Just be prepared for the next outburst because it WILL happen.
> 
> Have you done any talking recently? In my case, my husband and I get along just fine as long as I don't bring up any of our issues. If we just stay on the surface and pretend everything is OK, we can go days and maybe even weeks without 'fighting', or at least til something or someone else upsets him.
> 
> If you're not fighting just because you don't bring up your issues any more, then you're not really not fighting, you're kind of rug sweeping or postponing the inevitable.


We are going to MC, so I'm not sure that's it. Although if she doesn't like what he has to say, she may not go long. And yes, I know there will be a next time. I've heard this song and dance before and there has always been a next time.

And yes, now that you call that to my attention, it is exactly what you say. We are not fighting because we are not discussing any of the issues that will cause an argument. Everything is superficial right now. I mentioned this in my previous post about how she and I cannot seem to get along, but almost any discussion can lead to an argument if it isn't about rainbows and unicorns. We simply do not seem to have the capacity to talk about tough subjects without getting into an argument. Ironically, people tell me that I have the choice not to engage in an argument (and I don't anymore), but that has only led to a different argument.


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## turnera

breathedeep said:


> I have been keeping good notes on the recent events and have recordings, so I will be bringing those on Friday.


 Perfect. Recordings are the best.

But expect her to go ballistic. You're spying on me? You're disgusting! 

"No, just protecting myself."


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## Kivlor

breathedeep said:


> I have said this often, which really angers her because she feels like it is a non-response and that I am not acknowledging her feelings. I think she even references that in some of the conversations I've posted.
> 
> I don't plan on allowing her to throw me under the bus without her taking any responsibility, but I also don't want to go in and get into a 'look how terrible he/she is' battle by each of us throwing mud at each other with the sole purpose of showing how crazy the other is.
> 
> I have been keeping good notes on the recent events and have recordings, so I will be bringing those on Friday.


Your first sentence made me think of this. 

In all seriousness, I agree with Turnera in this. Be careful not to let her manipulate the situation in MC.


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## breathedeep

Kivlor said:


> In all seriousness, I agree with Turnera in this. Be careful not to let her manipulate the situation in MC.


She will try, and she is better at it than I am. My goal is to try to remain calm, stick to facts, and work towards she and I having a healthier relationship instead of mud-slinging. At least I hope it doesn't regress to that.


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## turnera

Make sure you tell the MC that she manipulates.


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## Thor

You may not want to reveal that you are recording her. I would think long and hard before letting that out.


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## farsidejunky

Thor said:


> You may not want to reveal that you are recording her. I would think long and hard before letting that out.


Agree.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## JohnA

You need to read this link @marduk posted a while ago. What is DARVO?

Here is a recap 

Davo

What is DARVO?

Jennifer J. Freyd, University of Oregon

Short Definition

DARVO refers to a reaction perpetrators of wrong doing, particularly sexual offenders, may display in response to being held accountable for their behavior. DARVO stands for "Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender." The perpetrator or offender may Deny the behavior, Attack the individual doing the confronting, and Reverse the roles of Victim and Offender such that the perpetrator assumes the victim role and turns the true victim -- or the whistle blower -- into an alleged offender. This occurs, for instance, when an actually guilty perpetrator assumes the role of "falsely accused" and attacks the accuser's credibility or even blames the accuser of being the perpetrator of a false accusation.


Disclaimers

DARVO as a concept is based on observation and analysis. The author has not yet published systematic empirical research testing the coherence or frequency of DARVO. However, the first empirical research specifically testing the concept of DARVO is completed and the manuscript report is in preparation (Harsey, Zurbriggen, & Freyd, in prep).
Other observers have likely noted the same phenomena and related phenomena using different terms; the author has been informed that some people have found the term DARVO a helpful mnemonic and organizing concept.
Also the presense of DARVO is not necessarily evidence in support of the accusation of guilt; a truly innocent person may deny an accusation, attack the person making the accusation, or claim the victim role. Future research may be able to determine the probability of a DARVO response as a function of guilt or innocence. The author hypothesized that some sorts of denials and reactions such as DARVO are more likely when the perpetrator is guilty than innocent (Freyd, 1997); however this hypothesis has not yet been tested. Furthermore, even if research indicates that a DARVO reaction is more likely when there is actual guilt, it would be an error to use a DARVO reaction as proof of guilt.
For now the concept of DARVO is offered as potentially memorable and useful term for anticipating the behavior of perpetrators when held accountable, and for making sense of responses that may otherwise be confusing (particularly when victim and offender get reversed).*
History of Terminology & Writings about DARVO

Jennifer Freyd introduced the term "DARVO" near the end of a 1997 publication about her primary research focus, "betrayal trauma theory." (For more on betrayal trauma theory, see Definition of Betrayal Trauma Theory.)

The reference for the 1997 article introducing the term is:

Freyd, J.J. (1997) Violations of power, adaptive blindness, and betrayal trauma theory. Feminism & Psychology, 7, 22-32.

In that paper Freyd explained that DARVO responses may be effective for perpetrators. "...I have observed that actual abusers threaten, bully and make a nightmare for anyone who holds them accountable or asks them to change their abusive behavior. This attack, intended to chill and terrify, typically includes threats of law suits, overt and covert attacks on the whistle-blower's credicility, and so on..... [T]he offender rapidly creates the impression that the abuser is the wronged one, while the victim or concerned observer is the offender. Figure and ground are completely reversed... The offender is on the offense and the person attempting to hold the offender accountable is put on the defense." (Freyd, 1997, p 29-30)

"By denying, attacking and reversing perpetrators into victims, reality gets even more confusing and unspeakable for the real victim. .... These perpetrator reactions increase the need for betrayal blindness. If the victim does speak out and gets this level of attack, she quickly gets the idea that silence is safer." (Veldhuis & Freyd, 1999. p 274).

It didn't happen (an instance) or It rarely happens (a type of event)
It wasn't harmful
Put together they can take the form: "It didn't happen, but if it did, it wasn't that bad" or "It rarely happens, but when it does it isn't harmful." The two claims both serve to deny, but they depend upon different sorts of evidence. They may both be true, but they are sometimes somewhat suspicious when claimed simultaneously (or by the same person at different times), as for instance can occur in response to allegations of rape or child sexual abuse.


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## breathedeep

JohnA said:


> You need to read this link @marduk posted a while ago. What is DARVO?
> 
> Here is a recap...


I have definitely noticed this pattern with her, although I didn't know how to quantify it.


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## Marduk

breathedeep said:


> I have definitely noticed this pattern with her, although I didn't know how to quantify it.


Don't quantify it. Be aware of it. 

I would recommend either not discussing it with her, just call it out for what it is -- trying to make you the bad guy instead of the hurt guy. 


If you do discuss it, use general terms, don't label her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JohnA

@marduk's right don't label her. In the psyco-babble world if you label (even if right) is an automatic loss. Label yourself instead when she goes DARVO, So say this makes me feel as though she thinks I am attacking her and she needs to defend herself. Ask the MC how can I express myself to her ? I just want to achieve..... 

It's bullshyt but we didnt write the rules. Just think of it as a double negative in math. 1 - neg 1 is two.


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## turnera

There is a pattern I see of men who go to MC with strong - or crazy - women. The women storm in, paint a monstrous picture of the husband, moan and groan about how oh-so-much they are suffering at the hands of the man...and the man just sits there and takes it. And in the end, the MC BELIEVES the woman and puts most of the blame on the man. No-win situation. 

Now, you don't want to go in guns a'blazing, either, don't be an assh*le, which would prove her point. Be logical, have TONS of evidence of what SHE does to YOU, do not throw emotion into the ring (you lose if you do), but DO continue to state that YOU, also, want something from this marriage. And if you don't get the respect, better treatment, and Emotional Needs met, you have no intention of staying in this dead marriage. 

IMO, the MC needs to HEAR this from you, how unhappy your wife has made you, that you WANT to stay but you refuse to stay while being railroaded. And then sit back and wait.


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## breathedeep

marduk said:


> Don't quantify it. Be aware of it.
> 
> I would recommend either not discussing it with her, just call it out for what it is -- trying to make you the bad guy instead of the hurt guy.
> 
> 
> If you do discuss it, use general terms, don't label her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't discuss it with her because I know it would only be turned around on me. I would not try to label her, even to the point that I have actively tried to stay away from labeling her in our discussions here.


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## breathedeep

turnera said:


> There is a pattern I see of men who go to MC with strong - or crazy - women. The women storm in, paint a monstrous picture of the husband, moan and groan about how oh-so-much they are suffering at the hands of the man...and the man just sits there and takes it. And in the end, the MC BELIEVES the woman and puts most of the blame on the man. No-win situation.
> 
> Now, you don't want to go in guns a'blazing, either, don't be an assh*le, which would prove her point. Be logical, have TONS of evidence of what SHE does to YOU, do not throw emotion into the ring (you lose if you do), but DO continue to state that YOU, also, want something from this marriage. And if you don't get the respect, better treatment, and Emotional Needs met, you have no intention of staying in this dead marriage.
> 
> IMO, the MC needs to HEAR this from you, how unhappy your wife has made you, that you WANT to stay but you refuse to stay while being railroaded. And then sit back and wait.


This is what I'm worried about. It's a fine line: I don't want to go in and prove her point by being an a-hole, but I have to stand up for myself.

I am at my wit's end though. I am at the point of thinking, what if she is right? What if I am the problem here?

And the catch with that is that if I deny that I am the problem, doesn't that point to me being part of the problem?


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## tech-novelist

breathedeep said:


> This is what I'm worried about. It's a fine line: I don't want to go in and prove her point by being an a-hole, but I have to stand up for myself.
> 
> I am at my wit's end though. I am at the point of thinking, what if she is right? What if I am the problem here?
> 
> And the catch with that is that if I deny that I am the problem, doesn't that point to me being part of the problem?


This sounds a lot like "Denying that you are crazy shows that you are crazy."

Which is absurd but people sometimes believe it.

So no, although you contributed to the problems in your marriage, you aren't the crazy one.


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## breathedeep

The peace didn't last long. She has been making remarks that she thinks I am cheating on her with my new administrative assistant here at work. I hired two new people, one as my accounting assistant (male) and one as my admin assistant (female). Anytime we hire anyone new at my company, I take them out to lunch, but I know not to take a female out alone so I bring another person with us. Yesterday I took both of my new employees out to lunch, so it was me and my male accountant and female admin. My wife wanted to go with us so that she could make sure there was nothing going on between me and the new admin. She told me last night that if the new girl comes on to me, she was going to break her legs (she said this in a joking but not really joking way).

This is not the first time this has happened. Before she and I were married, I needed to have a meeting with a female recruiter. This recruiter wanted to meet over lunch to discuss some of our open positions. I told my wife far in advance that she wanted to meet. I asked her how she felt about it. My wife said it was fine so I scheduled the lunch. Leading up to the lunch, I continually kept my wife aware of it so that she didn't forget and so it didn't seem like I was hiding anything. The closer we got to the day, the more jealous my wife became. I ended up telling her if she was so concerned that something was going on between me and the recruiter, she could come along. She said that would make her look crazy. So I told her that she could come, but sit across the restaurant so that the recruiter didn't know my wife was watching, and so my wife could see that nothing was going on between us. She didn't do that, but she did end up driving by the restaurant to 'check up on me.'

I run a business, and this kind of jealousy makes doing business very difficult. If I have handled these situations incorrectly, please let me know. I definitely don't want to do anything to undermine my marriage, but in business, its very difficult to not go to lunch with someone of the opposite sex.


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## Thor

breathedeep said:


> I am at my wit's end though. I am at the point of thinking, what if she is right? What if I am the problem here?


This is one of the warning signs of you being damaged by her emotionally abusing you.


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## Pluto2

Thor said:


> This is one of the warning signs of you being damaged by her emotionally abusing you.


Absolutely agree.
You are being pulled down the hole.
It is not you, it is her disease. It does not respect you, or her, or your marriage or your children.
It is selfish and irrational.

My ex, when his mental illness was really bad, told me I was trying to kill him and told our kids they were disrespectful for asking him anything, like "how was your day." He would say I didn't support him enough. The thing is, there was never enough, ever. It did not matter what I did or didn't do, or what I said or didn't say, or how much I made. It was never enough. He accused me of cheating because I had a male FB friend at the time. (never in a million years would I cheat or even think about it). There was however, plenty of OWs. I'm not saying your W is a serial cheater, I am saying when reason leaves her mind, you cannot reason with her.


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## breathedeep

Pluto2 said:


> Absolutely agree.
> You are being pulled down the hole.
> It is not you, it is her disease. It does not respect you, or her, or your marriage or your children.
> It is selfish and irrational.
> 
> My ex, when his mental illness was really bad, told me I was trying to kill him and told our kids they were disrespectful for asking him anything, like "how was your day." He would say I didn't support him enough. The thing is, there was never enough, ever. It did not matter what I did or didn't do, or what I said or didn't say, or how much I made. It was never enough. He accused me of cheating because I had a male FB friend at the time. (never in a million years would I cheat or even think about it). There was however, plenty of OWs. I'm not saying your W is a serial cheater, I am saying when reason leaves her mind, you cannot reason with her.


Thank you for the sanity check. I'm finding I need those often nowadays.


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## breathedeep

By the way, I've mentioned that I meet with a male mentor each Wednesday. I met with him today and he asked how things were 'at home.' I gave him a rundown of recent events, and his recommendation was to get my financial affairs in order and to see an attorney, because he cannot see things ending well. He is a well-respected member of the community as well as a religious guy (but not overbearingly so), so I don't think he would have said that to me lightly.

He also asked me a question that I was not able to answer. He asked me how I am doing. I gave him a list of feelings, but he noted 'angry' was not on the list. He asked me why I was not angry with her for her withholding vital information from me until after she and I were married. I didn't have a great answer for him. He then asked me why I have a need to be a martyr. I gave him some [email protected]$sed answer which he rejected. He then asked me why I feel the need to stay in this relationship. I gave him some of the reasons I've given in this thread. He said I need to take into consideration my life, my kid's life, my health, and my happiness. He said from his viewpoint, this relationship is not good for me or my children.

My wife and I have our meeting with the MC on Friday. Of course I will write about how that goes.


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## Wazza

BreathDeep, what are you trying to achieve here? It might sound like a dumb question, but I'm asking it because I sense you are losing focus.

For example, you are recording her. It seems the first time she finds out about it may be in the presence of a third person, in a context that seeks to paint her in a bad light and make you look good. How would you feel if it was her doing that? If you explained why you are recording her I missed it, but I think it is dangerous ground.

Why are you going to the counsellor? A lot of the recent discussion seems to be advice on how to avoid the counsellor blaming you. Are you investing your time and money in the counsellor because you want to find a way forward with your wife, or because you want them to side with you and tell her she's wrong? (Or do you see them as the same thing?)

What's wrong with saying to your wife that the CSA is a big deal, and you see no point to investing a cent or a second in counselling if such key facts are withheld? Make it clear that you are going to disclose it in the first session if she doesn't. Give her a choice to participate in counselling on an honest basis, or to refuse. Take the bullsh1t option off the table. It's a waste of time.

What's wrong with asking the counsellor about the implications of CSA together? If they don't have a clue, they are not qualified to help you anyway.

If you've decided to divorce, get your ducks in order and get it over with. But if you want to rebuild the marriage, you need to play straight even when she isn't. It's a trust thing.


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## farsidejunky

I like your mentor.

No nonsense.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Blossom Leigh

I too like your mentor Breathe... I think he is spot on.


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## turnera

She is a CSA victim. 

But you are an abuse victim. 

Get help for that.


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## ReidWright

breathedeep said:


> TShe has been making remarks that she thinks I am cheating on her with my new administrative assistant here at work.
> 
> This is not the first time this has happened.


any chance of good old projection?


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## Marduk

breathedeep said:


> By the way, I've mentioned that I meet with a male mentor each Wednesday. I met with him today and he asked how things were 'at home.' I gave him a rundown of recent events, and his recommendation was to get my financial affairs in order and to see an attorney, because he cannot see things ending well. He is a well-respected member of the community as well as a religious guy (but not overbearingly so), so I don't think he would have said that to me lightly.
> 
> He also asked me a question that I was not able to answer. He asked me how I am doing. I gave him a list of feelings, but he noted 'angry' was not on the list. He asked me why I was not angry with her for her withholding vital information from me until after she and I were married. I didn't have a great answer for him. He then asked me why I have a need to be a martyr. I gave him some [email protected]$sed answer which he rejected. He then asked me why I feel the need to stay in this relationship. I gave him some of the reasons I've given in this thread. He said I need to take into consideration my life, my kid's life, my health, and my happiness. He said from his viewpoint, this relationship is not good for me or my children.
> 
> My wife and I have our meeting with the MC on Friday. Of course I will write about how that goes.


The day I let myself get angry with my ex is the day I started seeing clearly.


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## Grogmiester

breathedeep said:


> The peace didn't last long. *She has been making remarks that she thinks I am cheating on her with my new administrative assistant here at work.* I hired two new people, one as my accounting assistant (male) and one as my admin assistant (female). *Anytime we hire anyone new at my company, I take them out to lunch, but I know not to take a female out alone so I bring another person with us.* Yesterday I took both of my new employees out to lunch, so it was me and my male accountant and female admin. *My wife wanted to go with us so that she could make sure there was nothing going on between me and the new admin. She told me last night that if the new girl comes on to me, she was going to break her legs (she said this in a joking but not really joking way).*
> 
> This is not the first time this has happened. Before she and I were married, *I needed to have a meeting with a female recruiter. This recruiter wanted to meet over lunch to discuss some of our open positions. I told my wife far in advance that she wanted to meet. I asked her how she felt about it. My wife said it was fine so I scheduled the lunch. Leading up to the lunch, I continually kept my wife aware of it so that she didn't forget and so it didn't seem like I was hiding anything. The closer we got to the day, the more jealous my wife became. I ended up telling her if she was so concerned that something was going on between me and the recruiter, she could come along. She said that would make her look crazy.* So I told her that she could come, but sit across the restaurant so that the recruiter didn't know my wife was watching, and so my wife could see that nothing was going on between us. She didn't do that, but she did end up driving by the restaurant to 'check up on me.'
> 
> I run a business, and this kind of jealousy makes doing business very difficult. If I have handled these situations incorrectly, please let me know. I definitely don't want to do anything to undermine my marriage, but in business, its very difficult to not go to lunch with someone of the opposite sex.



Through out your thread you've discuss what's been happening at home. In this post it's evident that her behavior is bleeding into your professional life.

The fact she thinks you're cheating when she's the one who cheated I think is rich! Telling you if the girl comes onto you she'll break her legs is over the top. Some people just talk but with your wife's previous behavior I can see something happening if she perceives your admin has crossed the line. It's all in her perception of reality which isn't all that healthy.

It looks like this jealousy is a pattern for her. Your meeting with the recruiter is another example. I had to chuckle when you told her she could come to the meeting with the recruiter and her reply was "I'd look crazy". Ha ! a moment of clarity !

The barrage of mind games she's constantly playing is going to continue to wear you down. It's physiologically abusive. I agree with your mentor. There's only so much you can do. It's really up to her to get help. If you don't see some progress on the C front you should pull the pin and get out.

You've been a stand up guy through this. Don't let months turn into years. You have children and while you're devoting an inordinate amount of time and energy into your relationship with your wife it takes away from them. You can't get those years back once they're gone and the fact they are observing her poor behavior adds insult to injury.


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## Annie123

breathedeep said:


> By the way, I've mentioned that I meet with a male mentor each Wednesday. I met with him today and he asked how things were 'at home.' I gave him a rundown of recent events, and his recommendation was to get my financial affairs in order and to see an attorney, because he cannot see things ending well. He is a well-respected member of the community as well as a religious guy (but not overbearingly so), so I don't think he would have said that to me lightly.
> 
> He also asked me a question that I was not able to answer. He asked me how I am doing. I gave him a list of feelings, but he noted 'angry' was not on the list. He asked me why I was not angry with her for her withholding vital information from me until after she and I were married. I didn't have a great answer for him. He then asked me why I have a need to be a martyr. I gave him some [email protected]$sed answer which he rejected. He then asked me why I feel the need to stay in this relationship. I gave him some of the reasons I've given in this thread. He said I need to take into consideration my life, my kid's life, my health, and my happiness. He said from his viewpoint, this relationship is not good for me or my children.
> 
> My wife and I have our meeting with the MC on Friday. Of course I will write about how that goes.


How was your weekend, breathe? For me, weekends are almost always the worst 
How did the MC session go? How are you feeling? Have you started feeling anger yet?


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## breathedeep

Annie123 said:


> How was your weekend, breathe? For me, weekends are almost always the worst
> How did the MC session go? How are you feeling? Have you started feeling anger yet?


MC on Friday was ok. I think the counselor was balanced with his advice, although I don’t necessarily agree with his opinion on some things. That’s ok though. I’m willing to be open-minded.

We sat on the couch, and he asked us how things have been since she and I were in last time. Before he could finish his sentence, she was crying and he was somewhat taken aback, stuttering as he finished his sentence. He then said he could see she was upset about something and asked if she wanted to tell him what was going on. She refused to say anything and pointed to me indicating she wanted me to start. Seeing that she wasn’t going to say anything, he asked me if I would like to start. Knowing that I didn’t want to be the one to bring up the topic of her CSA, I decided to start the conversation with something about me. I said that we are really struggling with how each of us are reacting and communicating with each other based on some of our childhood experiences. He then asked me if I could give specific examples of how certain childhood experiences are causing us to act/react today and in our relationship. I told him how I grew up in a very chaotic and unstable environment and jumped around from family to friends to family depending on who would take me in as a child. I told the counselor that my father was an alcoholic and a heavy drug user and that I didn’t live with him much when I was a child, but when I did, he, and more specifically his girlfriends would not treat me very well. He asked me how that manifested and caused issues with me as an adult. I responded that as a child I felt like I had very little control over my environment, so naturally nowadays I tend to like to control my environment as much as possible, which has manifested in a bit of OCD behavior. He looked at my wife and asked if this was true, to which she nodded her head emphatically in confirmation.

Sensing that this may have broken the ice, he then asked her what childhood experience she was dealing with, and how it is manifesting now as an adult. She began telling him that she too grew up in an unstable environment, her father being abusive and cruel to her mother, cheating on her mother, then leaving and moving away when her parents divorced. She said she struggles with fear of abandonment and self-esteem issues. He asked if we had had any big ‘blow-ups’ since we were last there to see him that were related to these issues. Again, I didn’t want to introduce the topic of CSA, so I was waiting for her to say something about it. After a few seconds, she said that we had a big argument a few weeks before after she told me something that happened to her when she was a child. He asked her what it was, and she told him that she had been sexually abused. She said that she told me that this is causing her to not care about her sexual pleasure because she learned at an early age that she didn’t matter and that she was only there to please the man. She said after she told me that, I gave her an ultimatum to get help for her CSA or I was going to divorce her. She said that she wishes she had never told me and that she will never trust me again to open up to me and tell me how she really feels.

He then turned to me and asked if what she was saying is true. I responded that what she was saying isn’t how it happened. I then explained to him that she told me she has to ‘go someplace else’ and that she said she has never liked sex and that she likely never would. I told him that she told me that she views herself as a sex object and that I am using her as a sexual object for my gratification. I told him that she said that the two and a half years she and I have been together that she has been acting during sex with me, and that she goes through motions of what she thinks she’s supposed to be doing. He then asked her if what I was saying was true, and she said yes, but that on Monday she had a chance to think about it over the weekend and she wanted to ‘amend’ what she told me. She said when she first told me that, she was talking without thinking it through and that she’s had time to sort through her feelings more and that what she really meant was that she cannot focus on herself and that she is only focusing on me when we have sex. He asked me how I reacted to her telling me that, and I said that I asked her several times over the weekend if she could clarify what she meant, or if what she was saying was what she meant, and each time she confirmed, and only changed her story on Monday after she and I had the talk where I requested that she get help for her CSA and anger issues. I told him that I was confused because she had never told me any of these feelings before, and until that previous Thursday, I thought she and I had a great sex life. I told him I asked her why she didn’t tell me these things before, and she responded that she didn’t tell me because she knew I wouldn’t marry her. I told the counselor that after she told me that, I felt deceived. He said he had a different perspective on the situation. 

He said this is a special adventure I can go on with her and that I should be happy that she has chosen me to go along this journey with her. He said that I get the opportunity to help her grow and develop from a person who feels her only worth is sexual, into a person who has worth as a human being and that is a very special thing that she wants to give me if I am willing to go on the journey with her. He said that I was wrong to perceive her waiting until after she and I got married to tell me as her being deceptive. He said that people open up when they are comfortable and in their own time. He said that when we marry someone, we accept them as they are and we have to accept what we find behind some previously unopened doors. He said I should be loving and compassionate and show her I can be safe for her to talk to even about her darkest secrets. He said that the way I reacted was not caring and compassionate and he understands why she doesn't trust me and wants to close up now.

He asked us to look at each other and tell each other we love each other and we are committed to this journey together. I looked at her to say it the words, but she would not. She said she doesn't believe I am committed no matter what. She said after I gave her an ultimatum and held our marriage over her head, she doesn't trust me anymore. I said, “She keeps referencing this ‘ultimatum’, so I need to talk about that.” I told him that it wasn’t an ultimatum. I said that when she and I had the discussion on Monday night, this was after the entire weekend of us talking, and her refusing to get help for her CSA or anger issues, saying she just couldn’t do it. It was also after she gave me her wedding ring back and told me she wasn’t going to be controlled by me and to go find some other woman to control. I told him that I was setting a boundary, telling her that I was no longer going to allow her to scream, and yell, and swear at me and the children. I said that I could no longer live with her calling me names, saying I disgust her, telling me that I would be better off f*cking other *****s, and that she made a mistake marrying me. I said I could no longer handle her extreme anger, or the way she talk to the children, yelling at them saying things like, “You are the worst f*cking kid I have ever known.”

His looked at her and asked if what I was saying was true and she sheepishly admitted that it was. He said, “OK, that’s not a healthy way to handle your anger, and you are going to need to address that or you are putting your marriage at risk.” 

He recommended several counselors for us to see together as a couple dealing with our childhood experiences. He recommended we do weekend couples retreats so that we recommit to each other and show each other we are committed, as well as learning tools to do that. He said that at this point, with what he has heard, she and I have a long and uphill battle, but if we are committed we could have a healthy relationship. He asked us again if we could look at each other and say we loved each other and we are committed, but she wouldn’t do it. She just kept talking about how she could not trust me anymore. He said that was ok, and instructed me that I need to be more understanding and compassionate and in time, she may come around.

Once we left, she and I didn’t talk much, but I could tell she was VERY upset with me for saying what I did. Later that evening, she told me she was angry and upset with me for telling him what I did because I was going to cause her to lose her children. She said that she will be surprised if he doesn’t report her behavior.

Since Friday, it has been non-stop tension, with her standing by on what she said about not opening up to me. Today we had this text exchange:

Wife: I dont know how to act around you right now. Im sorry

Me: No need to apologize. We'll figure it out.

Wife: until I get it figured out, Im going into self protection mode so to speak

Me: I understand

As for anger, I don't know. I don't feel it yet. She asked me about this last night too. I told her I wasn't angry and she said, "Mad, resentful, whatever...."

I said I was resentful, yes. So still no anger, but the resentment grows. And sadness.


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## Blossom Leigh

If she continues to choose abusive ways to handle her anger, she not only is choosing to risk her marriage, but also losing her kids. You absolutely did the right thing by exposing her abuse. The only way to break the cycle is to expose it to the light. Bravo breathe.


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## Annie123

She's still not ready to own up to her mistakes. It feels like she was only willing to share the part that would show that she's a victim. No accountability. I agree with Blossom, bravo for exposing her behaviors.

I agree that we need to accept people as they are, but that should be a choice, not something we are forced to do after signing the paper. You can't accept something you don't know.


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## Thor

Welcome to the world of being a Secondary. Your position is the same as mine: it was intentional deception to keep such information from you. It was worse that she did this before the wedding, taking away your ability to make a fully informed decision about your own life and your future children's lives.

Yet her viewpoint as she described it is quite common for the CSA victim. She truly doesn't trust you. She has those deep deep fears. Fear of abandonment, and the fear her worst fear will be confirmed, that she really is dirty and unloveable. She felt justified in keeping it secret from you because her life experience was that she was rejected if someone found out about her CSA. And all the circumstances around the abuse itself taught her to keep it secret. She thinks providing adequate sex to you is all you need out of sex, and thus you had no need to know she didn't like sex. 

Btw, dissociation is what it is called when she "goes someplace else" during sex. You can watch for this and back off when it happens. But that is somewhere in the future and with the guidance of her therapist before you two have sex again imho.

This is an unresolvable difference. She will never admit that her actions were hurtful to you or that they took away your ability to make an informed decision - she can't even admit to these facts. She will never agree that you have the right to feel hurt or deceived. Never.

And next you will have to navigate where she feels her CSA is being blamed for everything wrong in the marriage. If she is like my wife and many other CSA victims, she won't be able to separate out the abuse itself from the long term psychological damage. And she won't view the damage as, say, an accidental injury. If she had pneumonia or if she broke a leg in a car accident which wasn't her fault, you wouldn't blame her for the illness. But you would blame her if she refused to pursue professional medical treatment. She may view the abuse as what makes her unloveable or undesirable. But that isn't the case, is it? It is the psychological effects which are causing her behavior, attitude, emotional, and sexual problems.

Those psych effects are no different than pneumonia or a broken leg. They happened and now need to be addressed. You want her to recover more for her own happiness than any other reason. I'd bet money on that one. Hopefully you can find a way to get this message across to her. Your therapist(s) may be a good source of guidance on that.

Your wife may put some or even a lot of blame on herself for the abuse. She may never be able to admit this to anyone. As a child she is not responsible for what happened, as she was likely manipulated numerous ways by the abuser and she may have felt some physical pleasure. This would make it much harder for her to separate out the long term affects from the abuse events. If she blames herself for the abuse, and you blame the effects of the abuse for the problems in the marriage, then she sees it as a direct attack on her to say the abuse has harmed you.

Your current therapist may be tilting towards going easy on your wife and being harder on you intentionally. The therapist may judge your wife as much more fragile than you are, and may judge your wife's mental health more important to preserve than the marriage. Usually, therapists won't take sides, which yours did when essentially telling you your feelings about being deceived were not valid.


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## Blossom Leigh

"As a child she is not responsible for what happened, as she was likely manipulated numerous ways by the abuser ..."

...But, as an adult she is responsible for her current attitudes and behavior and it is her job to learn to be a constructive loving partner instead of so highly destructive

If she isn't willing, she is choosing to leave you no choice but to save yourself and your children.


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## Blossom Leigh

Blossom Leigh said:


> "As a child she is not responsible for what happened, as she was likely manipulated numerous ways by the abuser ..."
> 
> ...But, as an adult she is responsible for her current attitudes and behavior and it is her job to learn to be a constructive loving partner instead of so highly destructive
> 
> If she isn't willing, she is choosing to leave you no choice but to save yourself and your children.


AND furthermore, if I were you, I would make it very clear to her as a full functioning adult that she only has ONE shot to respond to your offer of therapy before you make that final decision, and she has two months max to get serious about it before you find a permanent safe house for your children. And if she cannot reasonably control herself in that two months, this one shot at therapy will be from separate houses immediately in interest of the children's welfare. This is not one I would play with and this is also one you cannot fully trust therapists on. My therapist told me to go back home after my H pulled a knife in front of our child. When I got back home, he was threatening suicide with us in the house. I should have trusted my gut and stayed away that night. I doubted myself because she's the "professional.". Which is also why by the time I asked him to deal with his shyte or get out, Mama wasn't playing. My child WAS NOT going to be raised in what I grew up in. Just her fear of him knowing her anger behavior tells me she KNOWS its wrong. Time for her to pi$$ or get off the pot. Makes me mad she is being flippant about the safety of children. Especially since she lived it. Tells me too many people have enabled her.


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## jld

breathedeep said:


> He said this is a special adventure I can go on with her and that I should be happy that she has chosen me to go along this journey with her. He said that I get the opportunity to help her grow and develop from a person who feels her only worth is sexual, into a person who has worth as a human being and that is a very special thing that she wants to give me if I am willing to go on the journey with her. He said that I was wrong to perceive her waiting until after she and I got married to tell me as her being deceptive. He said that people open up when they are comfortable and in their own time. He said that when we marry someone, we accept them as they are and we have to accept what we find behind some previously unopened doors. He said I should be loving and compassionate and show her I can be safe for her to talk to even about her darkest secrets. He said that the way I reacted was not caring and compassionate and he understands why she doesn't trust me and wants to close up now.
> 
> His looked at her and asked if what I was saying was true and she sheepishly admitted that it was. He said, “OK, that’s not a healthy way to handle your anger, and you are going to need to address that or you are putting your marriage at risk.”
> 
> He recommended several counselors for us to see together as a couple dealing with our childhood experiences. He recommended we do weekend couples retreats so that we recommit to each other and show each other we are committed, as well as learning tools to do that. He said that at this point, with what he has heard, she and I have a long and uphill battle, but if we are committed we could have a healthy relationship. He asked us again if we could look at each other and say we loved each other and we are committed, but she wouldn’t do it. She just kept talking about how she could not trust me anymore. He said that was ok, and instructed me that I need to be more understanding and compassionate and in time, she may come around.


You have a very good counselor here, breathedeep. I am impressed. Both you and your wife could grow a lot under his guidance.

You are still not obligated to stay, though. It has to be a free will choice.


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## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> You have a very good counselor here, breathedeep. I am impressed. Both you and your wife could grow a lot under his guidance.
> 
> You are still not obligated to stay, though. It has to be a free will choice.


He is a good one and I was glad he in turn called her out, but I fear it wasnt tough enough. She left dismissing him. SOMEONE has to intervene for these children. And totally agree will freewill... He could choose to walk now guilt free for sure.


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## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> He is a goid one and I was glad he in turn called her out, but I fear it wasnt tough enough. She left dismissing him. SOMEONE has to intervene for these children. And totally agree will freewill... He could choose to walk now guilt free for sure.


I am catching up on the thread, still am not at the part where something happened to the kids . . .

But in reality, we can all walk at any time. Maybe not easily, but unless we are literally bound and gagged, we can. Every day we stay is a day we choose for whatever reason to stay.


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## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I am catching up on the thread, still am not at the part where something happened to the kids . . .
> 
> But in reality, we can all walk at any time. Maybe not easily, but unless we are literally bound and gagged, we can. Every day we stay is a day we choose for whatever reason to stay.


Just wait til you hit it... Its sickening


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## breathedeep

Thor said:


> Yet her viewpoint as she described it is quite common for the CSA victim. She truly doesn't trust you. She has those deep deep fears. Fear of abandonment, and the fear her worst fear will be confirmed, that she really is dirty and unloveable. She felt justified in keeping it secret from you because her life experience was that she was rejected if someone found out about her CSA. And all the circumstances around the abuse itself taught her to keep it secret. She thinks providing adequate sex to you is all you need out of sex, and thus you had no need to know she didn't like sex.


She made each of these points crystal clear during our one on one talks and then reinforced this in our latest MC session. Everything that I've been reading tells me to keep reassuring myself, "This isn't about me. This isn't about me. This isn't about me," but I cannot help but wonder what I could have done differently to gain her trust. And now that she and I are in this situation, what can I do to earn her trust now? These questions may have no answers though, because this isn't about me and she inherently cannot/will not trust anyone.



> This is an unresolvable difference. She will never admit that her actions were hurtful to you or that they took away your ability to make an informed decision - she can't even admit to these facts. She will never agree that you have the right to feel hurt or deceived. Never.


I think you are right in that she will never agree that I have the right to feel hurt or deceived. She does often acknowledge her behavior has hurt me, her kids, and my kids. The acknowledgement is often short-lived, and she will switch back over to blaming me. 



> *And next you will have to navigate where she feels her CSA is being blamed for everything wrong in the marriage.* If she is like my wife and many other CSA victims, she won't be able to separate out the abuse itself from the long term psychological damage. And she won't view the damage as, say, an accidental injury. If she had pneumonia or if she broke a leg in a car accident which wasn't her fault, you wouldn't blame her for the illness. But you would blame her if she refused to pursue professional medical treatment. She may view the abuse as what makes her unloveable or undesirable. But that isn't the case, is it? It is the psychological effects which are causing her behavior, attitude, emotional, and sexual problems.


She asserted several times in our last MC session that I was blowing the CSA and its effects on our relationship and her behavior out of proportion, and that most of her negative behavior is conditioning from her 13 year abusive marriage. She is now downplaying the CSA and its effects, which I suspect is a self-preservation reaction based on all of this coming out now, and how she perceived my reaction to her opening up to me. She is choosing to downplay it now and put up walls.



> Those psych effects are no different than pneumonia or a broken leg. They happened and now need to be addressed. *You want her to recover more for her own happiness than any other reason.* I'd bet money on that one. Hopefully you can find a way to get this message across to her. Your therapist(s) may be a good source of guidance on that.


Yes, this is absolutely the case, although I do want her to recover so that the ongoing damage to her children (as well as mine) is minimized.

In MC, she told him that she'd been seeing a therapist for the past several years, and that this topic has never come up. He asked her why that was. She responded that she never thought this was an issue, and that she has been seeing her current therapist for her previous marital issues. He said that her current therapist may not be the right person to work with her through the CSA issue. From what I know of her relationship with her current therapist, I absolutely believe this to be the case. I also believe my wife has been dancing around issues when she talks with her current therapist, and not really disclosing important information so she gets the help she really needs.



> Your current therapist may be tilting towards going easy on your wife and being harder on you intentionally. *The therapist may judge your wife as much more fragile than you are*, and may judge your wife's mental health more important to preserve than the marriage. Usually, therapists won't take sides, which yours did when essentially telling you your feelings about being deceived were not valid.


After this session, I think you are absolutely correct. She presents a very strong facade, until the facade comes down, which it did here, and he was shocked a bit.

Thor - I apologize if you've posted this information before and I missed it, but can you give me more details about your situation? I see from post 345 in this thread that you've been married to your wife since 1982. Did she tell you about her CSA and its full and true effects prior to the marriage? What has kept you in your marriage?


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## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Just wait til you hit it... Its sickening


It is the one where the mom threatens to spank the little girl and the little girl is scared of her, and the mom threatens suicide?

A lot of people in pain in this family, terrible pain, and some in terrible fear. 

Breathedeep, did you go in detail with the counselor about the incident with your wife's daughter? Did he respond specifically about what happened?


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## jld

breathedeep said:


> I cannot help but wonder what I could have done differently to gain her trust. And now that she and I are in this situation, *what can I do to earn her trust now*?


Very good pro-active thought, breathedeep. I bet your therapist could give you some helpful suggestions.


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## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> It is the one where the mom threatens to spank the little girl and the little girl is scared of her, and the mom threatens suicide?
> 
> A lot of people in pain in this family, terrible pain, and some in terrible fear.
> 
> Breathedeep, did you go in detail with the counselor about the incident with your wife's daughter? Did he respond specifically about what happened?


yea... and her screaming extreme foulness at her. The whole thing was highly destructive.


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## Blossom Leigh

breathe... she needs to be earning YOUR trust

She cannot be trusted with these kids.


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## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> yea... and her screaming extreme foulness at her. The whole thing was highly destructive.


Definitely. Lots of pain there, all around.


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## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Definitely. Lots of pain there, all around.


I agree, but the innocent children need to be priority #1 and exposure to this level of toxicity highly limited.

I recommend separate residences right now. 

I just wouldn't play with this fire up close.

It is WAY too damaging to the kids.


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## breathedeep

Blossom Leigh said:


> AND furthermore, if I were you, I would make it very clear to her as a full functioning adult that she only has ONE shot to respond to your offer of therapy before you make that final decision, and she has two months max to get serious about it before you find a permanent safe house for your children. And if she cannot reasonably control herself in that two months, this one shot at therapy will be from separate houses immediately in interest of the children's welfare. This is not one I would play with and this is also one you cannot fully trust therapists on.


She brought up the timeline and ultimatum during our MC session, and how I was 'holding her marriage' over her head. She said I gave her until the end of March to get into counseling or I was leaving her. This is and isn't true, but beside the point. Our counselor responded that making these types of ultimatums isn't healthy. I said that when we were discussing this, I was telling my wife that I could not allow my children to live in an environment like this anymore and that is a BIG reason I need her to get help for her anger. He said that what children need more is to see their parents having disagreements and being able to work them out, instead of threatening divorce anytime something comes up. He said children need to have that stability.



> My therapist told me to go back home after my H pulled a knife in front of our child. When I got back home, he was threatening suicide with us in the house. I should have trusted my gut and stayed away that night. I doubted myself because she's the "professional.". Which is also why by the time I asked him to deal with his shyte or get out, Mama wasn't playing. My child WAS NOT going to be raised in what I grew up in. Just her fear of him knowing her anger behavior tells me she KNOWS its wrong. Time for her to pi$$ or get off the pot. Makes me mad she is being flippant about the safety of children. Especially since she lived it. Tells me too many people have enabled her.


I didn't bring up the fact that my wife was threatening suicide in front of her daughter. I don't know that I should have because my wife says it out of exasperation and not because she really wants to do it. Also, the way she worded it was, "I just want to end it all," and, "I'm ready to end it all." Her daughter didn't know what that meant, although subconsciously she could be picking up on it.


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## farsidejunky

You need to. Hiding information is enabling the situation to continue.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## breathedeep

jld said:


> It is the one where the mom threatens to spank the little girl and the little girl is scared of her, and the mom threatens suicide?
> 
> A lot of people in pain in this family, terrible pain, and some in terrible fear.
> 
> *Breathedeep, did you go in detail with the counselor about the incident with your wife's daughter? Did he respond specifically about what happened?*


I did not go into detail about that incident. The conversation was very fluid at the time and I may have intended to, but I believe our counselor jumped in and things just kept moving forward and I never had a chance to come back to it.


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## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> I agree, but the innocent children need to be priority #1 and exposure to this level of toxicity highly limited.
> 
> I recommend separate residences right now.
> 
> I just wouldn't play with this fire up close.
> 
> It is WAY too damaging to the kids.


Let's hear what the counselor said in response. He seems very good.


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## Blossom Leigh

duplicate


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## breathedeep

farsidejunky said:


> You need to. Hiding information is enabling the situation to continue.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I will talk about it next time.


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## Blossom Leigh

breathedeep said:


> She brought up the timeline and ultimatum during our MC session, and how I was 'holding her marriage' over her head. She said I gave her until the end of March to get into counseling or I was leaving her. This is and isn't true, but beside the point. Our counselor responded that making these types of ultimatums isn't healthy. I said that when we were discussing this, I was telling my wife that I could not allow my children to live in an environment like this anymore and that is a BIG reason I need her to get help for her anger. He said that what children need more is to see their parents having disagreements and being able to work them out, instead of threatening divorce anytime something comes up. He said children need to have that stability.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't bring up the fact that my wife was threatening suicide in front of her daughter. I don't know that I should have because my wife says it out of exasperation and not because she really wants to do it. Also, the way she worded it was, "I just want to end it all," and, "I'm ready to end it all." Her daughter didn't know what that meant, although subconsciously she could be picking up on it.


I agree that kids need to see parents resolve problems. What I DONT agree with is allowing that to happen in an environment where one partner is so highly toxic. Trust me on this one. I lived it. AND got on the other side of it. Its just like with a horse who is highly destructive. You DO NOT get into the round pen and start training a horse like that. You start on the OUTSIDE of the round pen. My H and I separated for a least four months while the high level toxicity subsided. THEN we got back together and worked on it from there. I totally disagree with him. You have no idea what this does to kids. I saw changes in my child that were very unsettling in a very short amount of time. That's when I pulled the plug on trying to do it up close. I look at it this way... I'm being very honest and up front with him and giving him one shot at addressing his toxicity. THIS is the one area that I could care less if it is "unhealthy" or not. My child is in danger... nothing else matters. Screw everyone else's feelings. That child comes FIRST. 

Some of these counselors do NOT understand the level of abuse being thrown around for hours on end. These are not short outbursts. These are long drawn out highly destructive to every one in the house tirades. NO, NO NO.... It is unhealthy to have this hard a line in normal balanced individuals in order to work things out. But, with mentally destructive individuals, seek safety first.... then work on it from the safe zone. Please protect your kids. I'm telling you emphatically, you will never regret it.


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## breathedeep

jld said:


> Let's hear what the counselor said in response. He seems very good.


His response was that the children need to see that their parents can have (healthy) conflict and weather the storm, stay together and provide a stable environment for the family instead of breaking up at the first sign of trouble. His recommendation was that she get help for her anger and that I be more caring, compassionate and understanding of her situation. He recommended a specific therapist who specializes in weekend couple retreats where the couple recommits to each other and goes through exercises to strengthen the bond and trust.


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## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Let's hear what the counselor said in response. He seems very good.


I think it is well within bounds to call this counselor and in detail describe one of the long drawn out events and ask him if you feel it wise to begin working on this at a distance. It will be interesting to hear what he has to say. Let him know what its doing to the kids. HOLD NOTHING BACK in what you tell him. THEN YOU decide what happens. His opinion is ONLY an opinion. If you feel the kids are unsafe. PULL THE FRIGGEN PLUG and do NOT feel guilty. It is absolutely the right thing to do. If she wants to join in the safe environment as a SAFE adult, by all means. But, I am very serious about this. Do NOT think you are in the wrong if you end up deciding to protect those kids. I did it, saw it and have absolutely no regrets.


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## Blossom Leigh

breathedeep said:


> His response was that the children need to see that their parents can have (healthy) conflict and weather the storm, stay together and provide a stable environment for the family instead of breaking up at the first sign of trouble. His recommendation was that she get help for her anger and that I be more caring, compassionate and understanding of her situation. He recommended a specific therapist who specializes in weekend couple retreats where the couple recommits to each other and goes through exercises to strengthen the bond and trust.


This is not the first sign of trouble. That's the problem. Your counselor does not have a full picture yet.

You need to call him today and let him know what's going on. this is not a normal. situation for "couples retreats".... this is bordering on abusive shelter needs.


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## jld

breathedeep said:


> She brought up the timeline and ultimatum during our MC session, and how I was 'holding her marriage' over her head. She said I gave her until the end of March to get into counseling or I was leaving her. This is and isn't true, but beside the point. *Our counselor responded that making these types of ultimatums isn't healthy.* I said that when we were discussing this, I was telling my wife that I could not allow my children to live in an environment like this anymore and that is a BIG reason I need her to get help for her anger. *He said that what children need more is to see their parents having disagreements and being able to work them out, instead of threatening divorce anytime something comes up. He said children need to have that stability.*


He is a very good counselor, breathedeep. I think he can help your family a lot.



> I didn't bring up the fact that my wife was threatening suicide in front of her daughter. I don't know that I should have because my wife says it out of exasperation and not because she really wants to do it. Also, the way she worded it was, "I just want to end it all," and, "I'm ready to end it all." Her daughter didn't know what that meant, although subconsciously she could be picking up on it.


Bring it up next time. Again, this man seems wise and helpful.


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## jld

breathedeep said:


> His response was that the children need to see that their parents can have (healthy) conflict and weather the storm, stay together and provide a stable environment for the family instead of breaking up at the first sign of trouble. His recommendation was that she get help for her anger and that I be more caring, compassionate and understanding of her situation. He recommended a specific therapist who specializes in weekend couple retreats where the couple recommits to each other and goes through exercises to strengthen the bond and trust.


Again, I think this is very good. 

Have you done any reading on what can help women in CSA situations feel trust in their partner? You could do some advance work before asking the counselor about it.


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## breathedeep

Blossom Leigh said:


> This is not the first sign of trouble. That's the problem. Your counselor does not have a full picture yet.


You are correct. We have only seen him twice, so he certainly doesn't have the full picture.

She has asked that I not bring up certain topics, such as when she was pregnant with my baby and cheated on me/left me. If I begin to talk about these things, she will only further withdraw and build walls, and trust me less. Her ex-husband is in the process of trying to modify custody and there is a GAL involved, so she is also VERY worried about losing her kids if I tell him what's really been going on.


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## Blossom Leigh

breathedeep said:


> You are correct. We have only seen him twice, so he certainly doesn't have the full picture.
> 
> She has asked that I not bring up certain topics, such as when she was pregnant with my baby and cheated on me/left me. If I begin to talk about these things, she will only further withdraw and build walls, and trust me less. Her ex-husband is in the process of trying to modify custody and there is a GAL involved, so she is also VERY worried about losing her kids if I tell him what's really been going on.


So be it.

Tell him.

Its high time someone holds her to account.

It is never ok to leave abuse in the shadows.


----------



## farsidejunky

breathedeep said:


> You are correct. We have only seen him twice, so he certainly doesn't have the full picture.
> 
> She has asked that I not bring up certain topics, such as when she was pregnant with my baby and cheated on me/left me. If I begin to talk about these things, she will only further withdraw and build walls, and trust me less. Her ex-husband is in the process of trying to modify custody and there is a GAL involved, so she is also VERY worried about losing her kids if I tell him what's really been going on.


Enabling. Your counselor can not do you the proper amount of good without the proper amount of information.

This is one example, among many, of how a BPD person will eat you alive. Do not enable it.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## breathedeep

jld said:


> Again, I think this is very good.
> 
> Have you done any reading on what can help women in CSA situations feel trust in their partner? You could do some advance work before asking the counselor about it.


I am currently reading a book called _Allies in Healing_. My wife recommended it. I am only a chapter in, but I believe it will touch heavily on this topic as it mentions lack of trust as a major effect of CSA.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

And to be honest... it will be the best gift you could ever give her.

No matter how nasty she is about it to you.


----------



## breathedeep

farsidejunky said:


> Enabling. Your counselor can not do you the proper amount of good without the proper amount of information.
> 
> This is one example, among many, of how a BPD person will eat you alive. Do not enable it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Point well-taken.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

breathedeep said:


> I am currently reading a book called _Allies in Healing_. My wife recommended it. I am only a chapter in, but I believe it will touch heavily on this topic as it mentions lack of trust as a major effect of CSA.


Great, do from a distance 

That's what I did.

I still cared from a distance, still worked on it from a distance, ready everything I could get my hands on from a distance, went to counseling from a distance, did all the things you would normally do up close from a distance in order to protect my child. Only when it was safe enough to return, did I keep doing those things up close. 

You can straight up tell her.... you have become too dangerous to do this up close. I must do these same things from a distance. Don't sugar coat it. She must realize the affect of her actions. Being mealy mouthed about it doesn't serve her recovery. It delays it.


----------



## jld

breathedeep said:


> You are correct. We have only seen him twice, so he certainly doesn't have the full picture.
> 
> She has asked that I not bring up certain topics, such as when she was pregnant with my baby and cheated on me/left me. If I begin to talk about these things, she will only further withdraw and build walls, and trust me less. Her ex-husband is in the process of trying to modify custody and there is a GAL involved, so she is also VERY worried about losing her kids if I tell him what's really been going on.


How about making a private appointment with him and telling him?


----------



## breathedeep

jld said:


> How about making a private appointment with him and telling him?


I could certainly do that. I'll have to look back at the agreement we signed with him, but he may not want to meet individually to discuss the other spouse.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

breathedeep said:


> I could certainly do that. I'll have to look back at the agreement we signed with him, but he may not want to meet individually to discuss the other spouse.


When do y'all go back?


----------



## Pluto2

I would be hesitant about telling the counselor without your wife's knowledge. CSA survivors have huge trust issues and when she finds out you, of all people, did not keep this confidence, it may be more than she can bear. At most, I would ask the counselor about how to handle an issue your partner won't mention and see what he/she suggests. The disclosure needs to come from her, at least IMO.

As a couple, how the two of you interact must be resolved. The underlying cause of her anger, is something she must resolve. I really see the two as separate counseling issues.


----------



## jld

breathedeep said:


> I could certainly do that. I'll have to look back at the agreement we signed with him, but he may not want to meet individually to discuss the other spouse.


How about asking her for permission, or just bringing it up at the next session because your conscience requires it?

I think everything should be on the table. It is just you and your wife and the counselor. This is not the wider community you are revealing this to. 

And he obviously has all of your best interests at heart. Seems like a stand up counselor.


----------



## bandit.45

What you are going through is one of the reasons I am against MC immediately after adultery. IC should always come first so that both partners can work on their personal issues before bringing them into a joint MC session. It is putting the cart before the donkey. It never works. 

Personally I think you need to stop MC for a while and work on yourself in IC. Your WW is not going to seek help. She has made that clear, and she is going to thwart any effort the MC makes to get to the root of her issues. Coercing her and threatening her into submitting to scrutiny will only make her retreat faster. It is really a no-win situation, which is why I encourage you to look after yourself.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

The National Domestic Violence Hotline | 24/7 Confidential Support Then call a hotline and describe what has been happening. You need clarity on this today. If you don't you leave your children at risk DAILY.


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## breathedeep

Blossom Leigh said:


> When do y'all go back?


Nothing is scheduled yet, but probably in about two weeks.


----------



## breathedeep

Pluto2 said:


> I would be hesitant about telling the counselor without your wife's knowledge. CSA survivors have huge trust issues and when she finds out you, of all people, did not keep this confidence, it may be more than she can bear. At most, I would ask the counselor about how to handle an issue your partner won't mention and see what he/she suggests. The disclosure needs to come from her, at least IMO.


That is my concern, and the very reason I didn't bring it up in our last session; I waited until she brought it up. He has said I could text him anytime. Maybe I could text him and approach it like you've mentioned above, although he will let her know I contacted him and if I haven't told her that, that gets us back to square one with the trust issue.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Pluto2 said:


> I would be hesitant about telling the counselor without your wife's knowledge. CSA survivors have huge trust issues and when she finds out you, of all people, did not keep this confidence, it may be more than she can bear. At most, I would ask the counselor about how to handle an issue your partner won't mention and see what he/she suggests. The disclosure needs to come from her, at least IMO.
> 
> As a couple, how the two of you interact must be resolved. The underlying cause of her anger, is something she must resolve. I really see the two as separate counseling issues.





jld said:


> How about asking her for permission, or just bringing it up at the next session because your conscience requires it?
> 
> I think everything should be on the table. It is just you and your wife and the counselor. This is not the wider community you are revealing this to.
> 
> And he obviously has all of your best interests at heart. Seems like a stand up counselor.





breathedeep said:


> That is my concern, and the very reason I didn't bring it up in our last session; I waited until she brought it up. He has said I could text him anytime. Maybe I could text him and approach it like you've mentioned above, although he will let her know I contacted him and if I haven't told her that, that gets us back to square one with the trust issue.


Then call the hotline and get confidential advice. She never has to know. But YOU need to know.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

breathedeep said:


> That is my concern, and the very reason I didn't bring it up in our last session; I waited until she brought it up. He has said I could text him anytime. Maybe I could text him and approach it like you've mentioned above, although he will let her know I contacted him and if I haven't told her that, that gets us back to square one with the trust issue.


HER trust isn't the ONLY trust in the house. There is the trust of yourself and your kids to consider. Y'all are the one's in the greatest danger. Lets stop enabling her destruction.


----------



## jld

I feel for you, breathedeep. I can't imagine being in a marriage where you can't talk about anything and everything in complete freedom with each other, and certainly with a counselor you are paying for help.

If you feel the same trust in this man that I do, I would start expressing that trust to your wife, and your desire to be transparent with him. I bet she feels it, too, as he has been understanding and kind with her, and in front of her has urged you to be that way with her, too.


----------



## farsidejunky

Blossom Leigh said:


> HER trust isn't the ONLY trust in the house. There is the trust of yourself and your kids to consider. Y'all are the one's in the greatest danger. Lets stop enabling her destruction.


Amen.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Blossom Leigh

farsidejunky said:


> Amen.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I mean for real... when you have a dog who has been severely abused and is a danger to himself and others, how are they handled? Through cages, which gloves on long sticks. Things are done from a distance first to mitigate damage. Same logic applies here. 

We don't start "oh pet the pretty doggy, he can't help he was abused" and allow that abuse dog to injure us. NO... trust is FIRST gained from a distance. When his outbursts are calmer... THEN you get closer. 

And to take this one step further. Would you send your child inside the cage of an abused dog who is known to attack?

I'm sorry... this is just very serious and needs to be taken as such. I've got to get to work... Choose wisely breathe... your kids are depending on it.

I'm glad you see it Far...


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## turnera

breathedeep said:


> I did not go into detail about that incident. The conversation was very fluid at the time and I may have intended to, but I believe our counselor jumped in and things just kept moving forward and I never had a chance to come back to it.


When is the next session? Start off with that.


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## turnera

breathedeep said:


> His response was that the children need to see that their parents can have (healthy) conflict and weather the storm, stay together and provide a stable environment for the family instead of breaking up at the first sign of trouble.


See, what's wrong is that your MC doesn't have a clue what's really going on in your house, so he is giving false or harmful advice. YOUR duty at this point is to tell him the whole truth, the whole situation. "First sign of trouble?" He clearly doesn't understand the dynamics in your house.


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## turnera

breathedeep said:


> You are correct. We have only seen him twice, so he certainly doesn't have the full picture.
> 
> She has asked that I not bring up certain topics, such as when she was pregnant with my baby and cheated on me/left me. If I begin to talk about these things, she will only further withdraw and build walls, and trust me less. Her ex-husband is in the process of trying to modify custody and there is a GAL involved, so she is also VERY worried about losing her kids if I tell him what's really been going on.


Tell him in a separate session. So the MC knows what you're truly dealing with.


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## jld

turnera said:


> When is the next session? Start off with that.


What about pluto's concern that the wife's trust may be hampered?

Is there a way to do this that both honors her trust and gets needed transparency going?


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## Pluto2

I like Blossom's suggestion of calling the hotline.

My concern is that if you ambush her in MC, she might-might, eventually, get the help she needs, but it will likely be at the cost of your marriage. Then you will be left trying to co-parent with an angry resentful ex. So my advice is talk to the hotline to get some guidance for you and the kids, and ask the MC suggestions on how to handle taboo issues that are causing conflict within the marriage.


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## turnera

breathedeep said:


> That is my concern, and the very reason I didn't bring it up in our last session; I waited until she brought it up. He has said I could text him anytime. Maybe I could text him and approach it like you've mentioned above, although he will let her know I contacted him and if I haven't told her that, that gets us back to square one with the trust issue.


Then you need to be honest with her. She needs to know that you're fighting to save your marriage and that her CSA is a barrier to that and that the MC needs to know the whole picture, the MC won't judge her, and the MC will help her, and you want to be alongside her for that journey. That you can't make promises that are detrimental to the marriage or her.


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## jld

breathedeep said:


> This is my second marriage and my son is from my previous marriage. *She and I have no children together*.


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## farsidejunky

Which is exactly why I advocated that he run like hell.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Which is exactly why I advocated that he run like hell.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Did you quote me, far? It came up as a quote on my notifications, but I do not see it in your post.


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Which is exactly why I advocated that he run like hell.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


He is certainly free to go. I know I said that many pages ago, as have others. 

But if he stays, he has the opportunity to grow, too. I think that is part of what the MC meant by "special adventure."


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Did you quote me, far? It came up as a quote on my notifications, but I do not see it in your post.


Looks like it didn't work... lol

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Thor

breathedeep said:


> Thor - I apologize if you've posted this information before and I missed it, but can you give me more details about your situation? I see from post 345 in this thread that you've been married to your wife since 1982. Did she tell you about her CSA and its full and true effects prior to the marriage? What has kept you in your marriage?


Well that is a long story. Short version, no she didn't tell me of her abuse until 29 years into marriage. She also hid significant information about her prior sexual history before we met. Had I known of any of that, I probably would not have married her when things started going bad before the wedding. Our courtship was great, with lots of good sex in addition to everything else meshing, right up until shortly before the wedding. Then the sex stopped cold. 

I also would have had some basis to understand whatever was wrong was not completely my fault. I chalked it up to all the stresses at the time. But the sex never picked back up, which I then blamed on something I must have done but didn't know what it could be. I knew she had several sexual relationships before me, so the problem must be me. She would meter out just enough sex to keep me on the hook, a few times per year. Had I known of the abuse history I would have had some basis to understand whatever was wrong was not completely my fault. 

Then just as I was ready to call it quits on the marriage she got pregnant even though the the doc said she couldn't. At that point I was determined to gut it out and somehow find a way to fix whatever was wrong, rather than have some other guy raise my baby girl. We've all heard how the step father or boyfriends are high risk to abuse young girls.

This is when her CSA hit like a tornado. Unpredictable nearly daily rages, no sex, constant complaints about how I did everything. In her mind I was a serious threat to her little girl. Still, she didn't tell me what was going on, and she refused to go to marriage counseling (she's a Clinical Psychologist and I deferred to her expertise). She managed to smooth things over enough to keep me from leaving.

My motto was "Divorce is Not an Option". Little did I know my motto would make it impossible to fix anything.

etc etc, blah blah, 20 years passes by. I worked hard to be a great dad to my kids, as well as the usual distractions of careers, house maintenance, etc. On top of that, I was a darned Nice Guy. Nice Guys (in the vein of Dr. Glover's book No More Mr. Nice Guy) who pair up with the CSA victim are in a perfect storm they can't understand or change.

Finally as the older two were off to college I confronted her on the terrible state of the marriage. There had been numerous red flags of affair(s) in the few preceding years, but I had not pursued suspicions because I wanted to keep the marriage together until the daughters were out of high school.

This is when she told me of the abuse, during a conversation when I told her it was time to fix the marriage or end it. I guess she whipped it out as a sympathy play. As I started to learn about CSA over the next month reading books and scouring the internet, the confused whirling mess of puzzle pieces suddenly fell into place in front of me, letting me see the real picture which had eluded me forever. Everything finally made sense.

Shortly after that we had 3 MC sessions where she buddied up to the therapist and minimized the CSA. She did agree to let me tell the MC about the CSA, but then she immediately became extremely hostile. She made her CSA topic off limits, a divorce level issue. She'd divorce me if she knew I wrote this post anonymously on this forum!

That was 4 years ago. I've tried to concentrate on the relationship issues, because I certainly can't address the CSA. She has not sought out any trauma therapy. The best I can hope for is Level 1 changes, where her outward behavior towards me changes. Deeper changes are beyond my ability to influence.

We're now partially separated due to several deceptions and other careless behavior on her part.

Edited to add: The only effect she has ever said she recognizes as caused by the CSA was promiscuity as a teen. She still won't answer what she means by that, and it is certainly a contradiction to how she presented herself to me when we were dating. From various bits and pieces I've picked up through the years before knowing of her CSA, she certainly was promiscuous and beyond the normal range for our generation.


----------



## Thor

Blossom Leigh said:


> I agree, but the innocent children need to be priority #1 and exposure to this level of toxicity highly limited.
> 
> I recommend separate residences right now.
> 
> I just wouldn't play with this fire up close.
> 
> It is WAY too damaging to the kids.


I agree. The marriage is at the bottom of the priority list.


----------



## breathedeep

Thor said:


> Well that is a long story. Short version, no she didn't tell me of her abuse until 29 years into marriage. She also hid significant information about her prior sexual history before we met. Had I known of any of that, I probably would not have married her when things started going bad before the wedding. Our courtship was great, with lots of good sex in addition to everything else meshing, right up until shortly before the wedding. Then the sex stopped cold.
> 
> I also would have had some basis to understand whatever was wrong was not completely my fault. I chalked it up to all the stresses at the time. But the sex never picked back up, which I then blamed on something I must have done but didn't know what it could be. I knew she had several sexual relationships before me, so the problem must be me. She would meter out just enough sex to keep me on the hook, a few times per year. Had I known of the abuse history I would have had some basis to understand whatever was wrong was not completely my fault.
> 
> Then just as I was ready to call it quits on the marriage she got pregnant even though the the doc said she couldn't. At that point I was determined to gut it out and somehow find a way to fix whatever was wrong, rather than have some other guy raise my baby girl. We've all heard how the step father or boyfriends are high risk to abuse young girls.
> 
> This is when her CSA hit like a tornado. Unpredictable nearly daily rages, no sex, constant complaints about how I did everything. In her mind I was a serious threat to her little girl. Still, she didn't tell me what was going on, and she refused to go to marriage counseling (she's a Clinical Psychologist and I deferred to her expertise). She managed to smooth things over enough to keep me from leaving.
> 
> My motto was "Divorce is Not an Option". Little did I know my motto would make it impossible to fix anything.
> 
> etc etc, blah blah, 20 years passes by. I worked hard to be a great dad to my kids, as well as the usual distractions of careers, house maintenance, etc. On top of that, I was a darned Nice Guy. Nice Guys (in the vein of Dr. Glover's book No More Mr. Nice Guys) who pair up with the CSA victim are in a perfect storm they can't understand or change.
> 
> Finally as the older two were off to college I confronted her on the terrible state of the marriage. There had been numerous red flags of affair(s) in the few preceding years, but I had not pursued suspicions because I wanted to keep the marriage together until the daughters were out of high school.
> 
> This is when she told me of the abuse, during a conversation when I told her it was time to fix the marriage or end it. I guess she whipped it out as a sympathy play. As I started to learn about CSA over the next month reading books and scouring the internet, the confused whirling mess of puzzle pieces suddenly fell into place in front of me, letting me see the real picture which had eluded me forever.
> 
> Shortly after that we had 3 MC sessions where she buddied up to the therapist and minimized the CSA. She did agree to let me tell the MC about the CSA, but then she immediately became extremely hostile. She made her CSA topic off limits, a divorce level issue. She'd divorce me if she knew I wrote this post anonymously on this forum!
> 
> That was 4 years ago. I've tried to concentrate on the relationship issues, because I certainly can't address the CSA. She has not sought out any trauma therapy. The best I can hope for is Level 1 changes, where her outward behavior towards me changes. Deeper changes are beyond my ability to influence.
> 
> We're now partially separated due to several deceptions and other careless behavior on her part.
> 
> Edited to add: The only effect she has ever said she recognizes as caused by the CSA was promiscuity as a teen. She still won't answer what she means by that, and it is certainly a contradiction to how she presented herself to me when we were dating. From various bits and pieces I've picked up through the years before knowing of her CSA, she certainly was promiscuous and beyond the normal range for our generation.


Reading this is almost like looking into a mirror of my relationship with my wife (even the nice guy part), except I was 'lucky' enough to be told of the CSA and effects only months into my marriage instead of years.

I want to comment more, but gotta try to get some work done today, so I'll be back later when I can.


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## As'laDain

I haven't read the whole thread, but most of it. I saw the nasty exchange and the text message. 


Breathedeep, do you know what makes us who we are? Is it our emotions? Is it our actions? 

Most of us think that our emotions are the definition of who we are. It's the way children see the world. Our jobs, as parents, is to teach them that it is our actions that define us. We cannot control our emotions, so how can we have any worth to us if we think our emotions define who we are? Your wife hates herself for the emotions that she feels. She believes that her emotions are WHO she is. And her own actions cause her to feel even more shame. 

She feels shame for her emotions. She cannot accept that it is ok for her to feel them. She does not understand that her emotions literally have nothing to do with who she is. 

I don't think you can fully accept that either. 

For a long time, my wife hated herself for the things that turned her on, the things that scared her, etc. All due to her CSA and family of origin issues. 

Today, it's completely different. She is HAPPY. Joyful. And our sex life is amazing during the few months I'm home. 

You can provide boundaries and still love her. Just don't love her for who she is. Love her for what she is and teach her to be the person she loves. 

Accept her emotions. Accept your own. Take action anyway. It's the only way to teach someone else to do the same.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MachoMcCoy

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...05185-just-cannot-seem-get-along-my-wife.html

I'll summarize:

Thread started in December 2015. He'd been with this woman for three years at this point. She exhibited symptoms of being bat-****-crazy for the entire time. Married her anyhow. September 2015 or so.

So AFTER three years are up and he makes his commitment to god and family, he THEN starts trying to fix her. She acts like anyone who is bat-****-crazy acts. He doesn't let up. It's getting ugly. There is no doubt he's not stupid enough to take it after only three years, so...

...out of nowhere this "bombshell".

Now she's a "CSA survivor". Everyone handles her with kid gloves. We all "understand" now. Pretty big shift in the dynamic. Oddly, 100% in her favor.

She's a danger to you and your kids. She tricked you into marriage. Chooses to continue manipulating you as opposed to getting help. Even the sex (which seemed like it was pretty good for someone "faking it") is now gone. And you're staying...why? To live up to a commitment you were tricked into making? 

I think it's crazy to try to fix this mess. Adding in the deceit, minimal commitment, and downright physical danger, it's just stupid.

If you're NOT stupid, set up a meeting for a pitcher of beer in the back corner of a crowded bar with the ex husband. Compare notes. I'll bet it's an education.


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## Grogmiester

breathedeep said:


> This is my second marriage and my son is from my previous marriage. *She and I have no children togethe*r.





breathedeep said:


> Yes with her exH, and *while she was pregnant with my baby*.





breathedeep said:


> You are correct. We have only seen him twice, so he certainly doesn't have the full picture.
> 
> She has asked that I not bring up certain topics, such as *when she was pregnant with my baby and cheated on me/left me*. If I begin to talk about these things, she will only further withdraw and build walls, and trust me less. Her ex-husband is in the process of trying to modify custody and there is a GAL involved, so she is also VERY worried about losing her kids if I tell him what's really been going on.


Hi @breathedeep could you clear something up for me? 

You've said you don't have any children together but you mention a couple of times she's pregnant with your baby. Was there another child?


----------



## As'laDain

MachoMcCoy said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...05185-just-cannot-seem-get-along-my-wife.html
> 
> I'll summarize:
> 
> Thread started in December 2015. He'd been with this woman for three years at this point. She exhibited symptoms of being bat-****-crazy for the entire time. Married her anyhow. September 2015 or so.
> 
> So AFTER three years are up and he makes his commitment to god and family, he THEN starts trying to fix her. She acts like anyone who is bat-****-crazy acts. He doesn't let up. It's getting ugly. There is no doubt he's not stupid enough to take it after only three years, so...
> 
> ...out of nowhere this "bombshell".
> 
> Now she's a "CSA survivor". Everyone handles her with kid gloves. We all "understand" now. Pretty big shift in the dynamic. Oddly, 100% in her favor.
> 
> She's a danger to you and your kids. She tricked you into marriage. Chooses to continue manipulating you as opposed to getting help. Even the sex (which seemed like it was pretty good for someone "faking it") is now gone. And you're staying...why? To live up to a commitment you were tricked into making?
> 
> I think it's crazy to try to fix this mess. Adding in the deceit, minimal commitment, and downright physical danger, it's just stupid.
> 
> If you're NOT stupid, set up a meeting for a pitcher of beer in the back corner of a crowded bar with the ex husband. Compare notes. I'll bet it's an education.


My wife didn't tell me either about her CSA until we were married. I just tried my damndest to explain her behavior and figured it out. She has said the same things as OPS wife, acted the same way, etc. 

I DO believe it's possible to fix his marriage because I have been there. Last night she made a comment to me that pretty well illustrates how far we have come... we planned to just go to bed last night as we were both exhausted. Her comment was "it just feels so weird to be going to bed without having sex." In the end, we didnt. I can't keep my hands off the woman and she loves it. 

That from dissociation during sex. And yes, I got the same line about not enjoying sex with me over the last few years. And her feeling the need to protect our daughter from me. 

It can change, but only if he changes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

As'laDain said:


> My wife didn't tell me either about her CSA until we were married. I just tried my damndest to explain her behavior and figured it out. She has said the same things as OPS wife, acted the same way, etc.
> 
> I DO believe it's possible to fix his marriage because I have been there. Last night she made a comment to me that pretty well illustrates how far we have come... we planned to just go to bed last night as we were both exhausted. Her comment was "it just feels so weird to be going to bed without having sex." In the end, we didnt. I can't keep my hands off the woman and she loves it.
> 
> That from dissociation during sex. And yes, I got the same line about not enjoying sex with me over the last few years. And her feeling the need to protect our daughter from me.
> 
> It can change, but only if he changes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Were there children involved?


----------



## breathedeep

Grogmiester said:


> Hi @breathedeep could you clear something up for me?
> 
> You've said you don't have any children together but you mention a couple of times she's pregnant with your baby. Was there another child?


Short story...

She and I dated off and on in early 2013 and got serious mid 2013. She accidentally got pregnant in September/October 2013 and we planned on keeping the baby (or at least I *thought* we had planned on keeping the baby). In early December I found out she had been seeing her ex-husband and they were getting back together. She broke up with me while she was pregnant and on my birthday, then over that weekend, she 'lost' the baby due to miscarriage.


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## farsidejunky

Brother, how much does she have to do for it to be too much? Hasn't there been enough damage already?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Annie123

breathedeep said:


> Short story...
> 
> She and I dated off and on in early 2013 and got serious mid 2013. She accidentally got pregnant in September/October 2013 and we planned on keeping the baby (or at least I *thought* we had planned on keeping the baby). In early December I found out she had been seeing her ex-husband and they were getting back together. She broke up with me while she was pregnant and on my birthday, then over that weekend, she 'lost' the baby due to miscarriage.


Breathe, I know this might sound cruel but are you sure that she was pregnant? And if she really was, are you sure she had a miscarriage and not an abortion? I'm really sorry, but I have a really hard time believing anything that she says because she seems to be a master manipulator.


----------



## Annie123

One more thing, you said that she claims that her ex husband was abusive and what not, but if that's true, why do you think she cheated on you with him? How did she explain that?


----------



## breathedeep

Annie123 said:


> Breathe, I know this might sound cruel but are you sure that she was pregnant? And if she really was, are you sure she had a miscarriage and not an abortion? I'm really sorry, but I have a really hard time believing anything that she says because she seems to be a master manipulator.


I know she was pregnant because I went to her first appointment and they confirmed it there. You'll see in my post that I put quotes around the word 'lost' because I have always suspected that she had an abortion because she had broken up with me and was back with her ex, and he probably told her he wasn't going to raise some other dude's baby.

I am not sure it was mine, however.


----------



## breathedeep

Annie123 said:


> One more thing, you said that she claims that her ex husband was abusive and what not, but if that's true, why do you think she cheated on you with him? How did she explain that?


Her children were hurting having gone through their separation and divorce, and he was able to convince her that he had changed and wanted to give the kids a good life. She said she felt she owed it to her kids to try one more time. It only lasted 6 weeks...


----------



## Blossom Leigh

breathedeep said:


> I know she was pregnant because I went to her first appointment and they confirmed it there. You'll see in my post that I put quotes around the word 'lost' because I have always suspected that she had an abortion because she had broken up with me and was back with her ex, and he probably told her he wasn't going to raise some other dude's baby.
> 
> I am not sure it was mine, however.


So there is a possibility she killed your child and you dont know for sure???? How can you possibly move forward not knowing? breathe..... Why would you allow someone to stay in your space and the space of your child without that settled? My heart mourns for the depth of your lack of personhood and what you are willing to let ONE person do to you.


----------



## breathedeep

Blossom Leigh said:


> So there is a possibility she killed your child and you dont know for sure???? How can you possibly move forward not knowing? breathe..... Why would you allow someone to stay in your space and the space of your child without that settled? My heart mourns for the depth of your lack of personhood and what you are willing to let ONE person do to you.


I don't know for sure, no. She tells me she miscarried. She had trouble conceiving her second child, and has miscarried often, so it is entirely possible. The timing is suspect, however, but I am a 'benefit of the doubt' kind of guy and I have no proof otherwise so I choose to believe her.


----------



## Annie123

breathedeep said:


> I know she was pregnant because I went to her first appointment and they confirmed it there. You'll see in my post that I put quotes around the word 'lost' because I have always suspected that she had an abortion because she had broken up with me and was back with her ex, and he probably told her he wasn't going to raise some other dude's baby.
> 
> I am not sure it was mine, however.


Thanks for clarifying. Have you met her ex husband? I feel it's important to figure out the truth about why her first marriage ended. Do you believe her that she was abused by him? I'm asking this not trying to minimize anything but trying to get all the facts because in your marriage she's the abuser. Are you sure that wasn't the case in her first marriage too?

I feel sick to my stomach reading about that pregnancy. How do you forgive her if the kid was really yours and she decided to have an abortion?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

breathedeep said:


> I don't know for sure, no. She tells me she miscarried. She had trouble conceiving her second child, and has miscarried often, so it is entirely possible. The timing is suspect, however, but I am a 'benefit of the doubt' kind of guy and I have no proof otherwise so I choose to believe her.


Does anyone know if he can get medical records on this to confirm?

Why would you choose to believe someone on this issue... Where was she when she miscarried?


----------



## Grogmiester

breathedeep said:


> Short story...
> 
> She and I dated off and on in early 2013 and got serious mid 2013. She accidentally got pregnant in September/October 2013 and we planned on keeping the baby (or at least I *thought* we had planned on keeping the baby). In early December I found out she had been seeing her ex-husband and they were getting back together. She broke up with me while she was pregnant and on my birthday, then over that weekend, she 'lost' the baby due to miscarriage.


 @breathedeep ,,, thanks for clearing that up. I am sorry for your loss.

As if the bolder you're pushing up hill isn't big enough, now you wonder what really happened to the child, was it yours, was it the xh child. 

Was the pregnancy to keep you from leaving? Her way of keeping you in line? (I'm just throwing things out there, anythings possible when dealing with a PD)

Was it a miss carriage due to her age (40 I believe you said) or was it induced in some way. It has to linger in your mind. As much as you say you know your w, it makes me wonder if you really do. You might know only what she's letting you know together with your observations.


----------



## breathedeep

Annie123 said:


> Thanks for clarifying. Have you met her ex husband? I feel it's important to figure out the truth about why her first marriage ended. Do you believe her that she was abused by him? I'm asking this not trying to minimize anything but trying to get all the facts because in your marriage she's the abuser. Are you sure that wasn't the case in her first marriage too?


I have met her ex on many occasions. While he's not a great guy, now that I've lived with her, I tend to think she under exaggerates her role in their divorce. I have seen documents from when they were going to counseling, and the recommendation from their counselor was that she get treatment for her anger. When she showed that to me a few months ago, she played it off as her counselor having to come up with *something* so that it wasn't always one-sided against her ex.



> I feel sick to my stomach reading about that pregnancy. How do you forgive her if the kid was really yours and she decided to have an abortion?


During that time, I asked her many times and many different ways if she was positive it was a miscarriage (trying to be sensitive to the issue). She continually assured me it was. If I found out otherwise, I would not be able to forgive her.


----------



## Grogmiester

breathedeep said:


> She brought up the timeline and ultimatum during our MC session, and how I was 'holding her marriage' over her head. She said I gave her until the end of March to get into counseling or I was leaving her. This is and isn't true, but beside the point. Our counselor responded that making these types of ultimatums isn't healthy. I said that when we were discussing this, I was telling my wife that I could not allow my children to live in an environment like this anymore and that is a BIG reason I need her to get help for her anger. He said that what children need more is to see their parents having disagreements and being able to work them out, instead of threatening divorce anytime something comes up. He said children need to have that stability.
> 
> 
> 
> *I didn't bring up the fact that my wife was threatening suicide in front of her daughter. I don't know that I should have because my wife says it out of exasperation and not because she really wants to do it. Also, the way she worded it was, "I just want to end it all," and, "I'm ready to end it all." Her daughter didn't know what that meant, although subconsciously she could be picking up on it.*


Hey @breathedeep somethings been bugging me since I first read your reply in bold above earlier today. 

My apologies if these examples sounds over the top.

How many times do we read in the paper when someone commits suicide and the best friend says "gee I didn't think he/she meant it".

How many times have there been murder suicides when a relative will say "he/she told me if I can't be with he/she no one will".

How many times have we seen shootings where after the fact someone comes forward and says "heck I just thought they were blowing off steam who would do something like that. I didn't take them seriously".

I'm not saying she's dangerous because I'm not there but don't be lulled into a space where you think "that couldn't happen to me"or "she would never do that". 

When dealing with a PD you should always expect the unexpected. It's just the way it is.


----------



## breathedeep

Grogmiester said:


> @breathedeep ,,, thanks for clearing that up. I am sorry for your loss.
> 
> As if the bolder you're pushing up hill isn't big enough, now you wonder what really happened to the child, was it yours, was it the xh child.
> 
> Was the pregnancy to keep you from leaving? Her way of keeping you in line? (I'm just throwing things out there, anythings possible when dealing with a PD)


I suppose anything is possible at this point. Interesting that she would want to keep me from leaving, then dropped me in her third month of pregnancy.



> Was it a miss carriage due to her age (40 I believe you said) or was it induced in some way. It has to linger in your mind. As much as you say you know your w, it makes me wonder if you really do. You might know only what she's letting you know together with your observations.


From what I understand, she has always had difficulty carrying children to term. She was suffering from hyperemesis gravidarum when she broke up with me and I know that was a very big problem in her previous pregnancies. She may have also induced because she didn't want to go through that again. She mentioned that to me a few times.

It does linger in my mind, quite often really.


----------



## Marduk

breathedeep said:


> His response was that the children need to see that their parents can have (healthy) conflict and weather the storm, stay together and provide a stable environment for the family instead of breaking up at the first sign of trouble. His recommendation was that she get help for her anger and that I be more caring, compassionate and understanding of her situation. He recommended a specific therapist who specializes in weekend couple retreats where the couple recommits to each other and goes through exercises to strengthen the bond and trust.


You need a new counsellor. 

It's like wil-e-coyote holding up an umbrella when the boulder is falling off the cliff above him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

breathedeep said:


> My initial reaction to this question is, no, I do not think so. I have known about her abuse from very early on in our relationship, and she made it clear to me early that I should not take it personally her inability to orgasm, and that I cannot pressure her to have one because that only exacerbates the problem. In the past, we have always focused on having fun, being close to each other, and not made a big deal of her orgasm (or lack of). I didn't want to put any pressure on her about it whatsoever.
> 
> With that said, given what she told me last night, there is obviously some reason she hasn't and doesn't feel I am safe. I am obviously missing something, and will have to do quite a bit of introspection in the coming days and weeks. I will also ask her if I have done anything that doesn't make her feel safe with me.



I probably should read more of your thread but sorry I had to get this out there.

I was your wife. Everything you've said, up until your quoted post above, was exactly me. Exactly! Except I couldn't even tell my husband about the abuse so he really was in the dark.

So let me assure you that you are in an extremely difficult dark dark place with your wife right now. I notice you started this thread two weeks ago but I'm guessing she is still in her dark place and refuses to come out.

I didn't like sex. I liked that I had sex, but the sex itself wasn't very rewarding to me. I liked that I felt close to him but I didn't feel excited or turned on, unless was I was totally drunk. 

I told my husband in a very nasty way that I never had orgasms and I blamed him. But at the time I didn't know that I didn't have orgasms because I couldn't. I didn't know how. I couldn't allow myself to become aroused enough to orgasm so I sabotaged sex, made it skip foreplay, made it jump to penetration. I didn't even know I was supposed to be building my arousal. I thought, at the time and very mistakenly, that it was all his fault.

The fear of vulnerability is what prevent arousal from building. Being vulnerable was a NO GO!!!! Hell NO!

You've got Thor on your thread and As'laDain, both husbands with experience dealing with CSA with their wives.

Let me tell you that even though I had been in therapy MANY times through high school, college, and a few times during our marriage I never ever told any therapist. I refused to discuss it, period. If I told, they'd want to ask questions, then I'd have to answer. The answer was NO! 

So you see this pattern of refusing to tell, refusing to talk, refusing to be vulnerable, it's all self preservation. Protect yourself at all costs, do not allow anyone to get you in a vulnerable place, emotionally or physically. 

I had to heal myself. 

My marriage wasn't good, our sex life was nonexistent. My husband came home every night but he was never "present." I was very unhappy. I wanted to be happy. I wanted to have a good marriage. I wanted to be normal. I KNEW I had sexual issues, but hell if I was going to talk about them! I had to learn how to be normal, like really normal and not faking it normal.

I had to learn about sex, what was normal, what was healthy, what was good. I had to learn about my body. I had to learn about arousal, arousal building. And this was all PRE INTERNET so finding this information was not easy! I had to learn to masturbate, I taught myself to orgasm at the age of 34-35 ish. Then I learned how to orgasm a LOT! >

Now and for the past 10-15 years, we have had a kick ass sex life and I am rather freaky in the sac! I am very selfish when it come to orgasms and feel that the sex wasn't good unless I had at least 3 orgasms. 

Two years ago I told my husband everything. I'm 53.

I wish I could give you something constructive that would help speed things to healing but I can't. It's really all up to your wife. Like I said above, I was unhappy and wanted to have a good marriage. I knew good sex was part of a good marriage and I knew I would have to figure out how to have good sex. If someone had tried to force me to talk I would have cussed them up one side and down the other while threatening bodily harm. If someone had called my therapist and ratted me out, I would have left and never gone back. Come to think of it, I had a therapist ask how my sex life was and I lied and said it was fine. It was NOT fine.

If you continue down this road of questioning her and pushing her, you will drive her away because she will not feel safe. Remember, vulnerability is like death.

If you can't take this anymore, divorce and leave your wife alone. Otherwise, you're in for a long road of trust building.

Just read this page of posts.

For crying out loud, your wife has a history of miscarriages and they're telling you to check to see if she "killed your baby?" Of all the stupid things!


----------



## farsidejunky

@Anon Pink

Please read some more. 

It is much more than that.

The baby part was over the top. 

This woman is NOT you.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Anon Pink

breathedeep said:


> I have said this often, which really angers her because she feels like it is a non-response and that I am not acknowledging her feelings. I think she even references that in some of the conversations I've posted.


It IS a no response and it DOESNT acknowledge her feelings. It's a callous thing to say to someone you supposedly care about so don't say it!

Try: "I get that you feel......and I get that it is frustrating that I feel differently. This is my decision and I think it's the right one." End of conversation.

"I'm sorry you feel that way" says NOTHING and is insulting.


----------



## Anon Pink

Sorry, had to cut in at post number 137.

This is the first time I have ever disagreed with @Uptown. Maybe this wife hits too close to home, or maybe I have BPD too!  I just don't see it in this wife.

You see need for connection/identity, I see need for safety.

You see fear of engulfment, I see fear of vulnerability...he's getting too close and might see the real me that is all kinds of screwed up even though I am an excellent faker and have almost everyone I know fooled.

Breathdeep: "It wasn't 'scared' as in she feared for her life, she said it was because she was feeling too close to me, and she had never been with someone like me before (caring, loving, putting her first), and she didn't know how to deal with it, so she broke up with me."

^^This was exactly how I felt when I was single. Any man that really intrigued me was also a man that scared the sh!t out of me and I ran away. Which is the same thing as saying, if I care too much about you it makes me vulnerable and that simply cannot happen.

The black and white thinking is a defense against flooding. She's carrying around a ton of emotional baggage and only has so much room for current issues. Nuanced and conflicting issues get boiled down to the dominant emotions and that's the one she goes with. I was the same way until I stated unloading some of the baggege and was able to handle conflicting emotions and nuanced emotions. I still flood sometimes and I don't recognize it until it's over and then I go and apologize to whoever I was mean to.

She refuses to attend therapy with you because you know her secret and might spill the beans. She can't fake to her therapist if you are in the room.

Uptown, you know I respect you like crazy, but I just don't see BPD here because the CSA can very easily be the cause and culprit of every behavior issue.

Back to reading the rest of the thread.


----------



## Anon Pink

breathedeep said:


> More discussion today. I'll keep this short as I'm sure everyone is tired of seeing the continual play-by-play of our discussions.
> 
> She said she had not told me about any of this until after she and I got married because she was afraid I would leave her.
> 
> She told me that she actually has been trying to push me away, and the feeling has gotten much stronger since she and I got married. She said she cannot handle being close to someone. That it makes her scared and uncomfortable.
> 
> She started telling me how she was not going to change for me, and that she wasn't going to be this person I could mold into who I wanted. She said I would be better off finding someone else than trying to change her. She said she is tired of pretending and keeping up the facade. She then walked over to me and handed me her wedding ring and told me to go find someone else to mold into the person I want.


That was incredibly insightful and transparent from her. Unfortunately, you should believe her when she says, she will not work in healing. That is a sad statement to make, very sad because healing is possible.


----------



## Anon Pink

Annie123 said:


> What I wonder here is... let's say she agrees to open up to a therapist about the CSA, let's say she gets all the help she needs in that area and she heals and learns to deal with it and live with it without it affecting her in the same way/degree that it does now...
> Does anyone know/is there a way to predict if that will also decrease all of her strong BPD traits? Will it make it easier to live with her? Be around her? Will it stop you from having to walk on the eggshells all the time?
> 
> If someone finds an article about this, pls link it. This is what I found
> 
> It doesn't say though if dealing with those childhood issues help decrease the BPD traits and behaviors.



Yes. I'm living proof. And as I posted earlier, I don't think she had BPD. I think she is the most afraid person I've ever come across.


----------



## Annie123

My apologies for the harsh post and terrible words, I edited my post to delete the over the top part. 
I'm sorry @breathedeep


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Breathe... Due to the surrounding circumstances when your wife "lost" her child it is perfectly reasonable to question the validity of her claim as to what happen even up to and including confirmation of medical records. That is a very serious issue and should be considered as such. It is not stupid for you to consider it nor is it stupid for anyone here to highlight its importance.

Also regardless of anyone else here, the abusive damage your wife is inflicting should also be taken very seriously and should not be minimized. It is a very real part of your life, impacting your son and her daughter and you. Its great that those here who have gotten on the other side of abuse, of which I'm one of them by the way, can all share their successes, it is not a good idea to be flippant and dismissive of highly destructive behavior especially at the frequency in which you guys are experiencing it.


----------



## Anon Pink

Blossom blossom blossom.... you keep your religiously based suspicions out of this and ill keep my heathen pagan ways out of this. 

A woman over 40 with a history of miscarriages should not be second guessed about the truthfulness of miscarriage!!!!


Let's not allow a general dislike and mistrust cloud our better judgement.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Anon Pink said:


> Blossom blossom blossom.... you keep your religiously based suspicions out of this and ill keep my heathen pagan ways out of this.
> 
> A woman over 40 with a history of miscarriages should not be second guessed about the truthfulness of miscarriage!!!!
> 
> 
> Let's not allow a general dislike and mistrust cloud our better judgement.


A history of miscarriages does not automatically mean that in the fog of an affair that she didn't choose to abort their child without his knowledge or consent. I know women personally who have had miscarriages ANDt also have chosen abortion. This has nothing to do with you or me, but did his wife choose to end her pregnancy without his knowledge or consent is the issue he needs to consider in assessing his relationship and has admitted it weighs on his mind a lot. If you insist on making this about you or me, we both know where that got you in the past.


----------



## Anon Pink

breathedeep said:


> In our current conversation, she has begrudgingly agreed to working on this. I keep saying she has to want to heal for her (I am using the statement Blossom used in Post #230). She has responded with this:
> 
> "You keep emphasizing the fact that it has to be for myself. I have to be honest and say that if you werent asking this of me, I likely wouldnt do this. I would continue working on coping with it, not trudging through it"
> 
> To me, this statement lets me know she isn't really ready to deal with this. What do you all see in this?


Allies in Healing is a good book as is ghost.

It doesn't matter why she is undertaking the healing journey. It only matters that she does.

When you have a bloody cut you can cope with it by wiping away the blood. That's not healing. There is a huge difference between healing and coping. Coping implies adopting protective behaviors to prevent further injury. Healing implies temporarily undergoing further injury in order to make the entire trauma all better.

Do I want those events to define my life forever, to dictate my reaction and responses to normal everyday events, or do I want to become the woman I would have been had those events never happened?


----------



## Anon Pink

Blossom Leigh said:


> A history of miscarriages does not automatically mean that in the fog of an affair that she didn't choose to abort their child without his knowledge or consent. I know women personally who have had miscarriages ANDt also have chosen abortion. This has nothing to do with you or me, but did his wife choose to end her pregnancy without hus knowledge of consent is the issue he needs to consider in assessing his relationship and has admitted it weighs on his mind a lot. If you insist on making this about you or me, we both know where that got you in the past.


I call it like I see it and what I see is you doing your typical thing here. Don't like me challenging your view? Cope with it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Anon Pink said:


> I call it like I see it and what I see is you doing your typical thing here. Don't like me challenging your view? Cope with it.


Don't flatter yourself.


----------



## breathedeep

Anon Pink said:


> So let me assure you that you are in an extremely difficult dark dark place with your wife right now. I notice you started this thread two weeks ago but I'm guessing she is still in her dark place and refuses to come out.


We are definitely still in a difficult spot as every day seems to bring up new conversations, discussions, and disagreements. She now fully asserts that she is committed to doing what she needs to do to heal; only time will tell.



> I told my husband in a very nasty way that I never had orgasms and I blamed him. But at the time I didn't know that I didn't have orgasms because I couldn't. I didn't know how. I couldn't allow myself to become aroused enough to orgasm so I sabotaged sex, made it skip foreplay, made it jump to penetration. I didn't even know I was supposed to be building my arousal. I thought, at the time and very mistakenly, that it was all his fault...
> 
> ...I had to learn about sex, what was normal, what was healthy, what was good. I had to learn about my body. I had to learn about arousal, arousal building. And this was all PRE INTERNET so finding this information was not easy! I had to learn to masturbate, I taught myself to orgasm at the age of 34-35 ish. Then I learned how to orgasm a LOT! >


Luckily she doesn't blame me for this. On the other hand, she does the ability to orgasm, especially with porn and masturbation. She cannot orgasm through intercourse and she doesn't allow me to participate in her masturbation.



> If you continue down this road of questioning her and pushing her, you will drive her away because she will not feel safe. Remember, vulnerability is like death.


I am trying to walk a fine line of wanting her to get help for the sake of our family and marriage, but giving her the space to do it in her own time. It is a tricky balancing act.



> If you can't take this anymore, divorce and leave your wife alone. Otherwise, you're in for a long road of trust building.


I am trying to be strong, but we've had continual arguments and stress this week, and the effects on my children are really weighing on me (and me as well).

Also, in another post where you quoted the discussion she and I had and she gave me her wedding ring back, you wrote I should believe her when she says she won't work at healing. If that is the case, I am not sure if there is anything to fight for.


----------



## breathedeep

Anon Pink said:


> It IS a no response and it DOESNT acknowledge her feelings. It's a callous thing to say to someone you supposedly care about so don't say it!
> 
> Try: "I get that you feel......and I get that it is frustrating that I feel differently. This is my decision and I think it's the right one." End of conversation.
> 
> "I'm sorry you feel that way" says NOTHING and is insulting.


I will try a different approach, but if I said "This is my decision and I think it's the right one." She would say something like, "Oh, so you are the end all, be all of what is right?"


----------



## breathedeep

Anon Pink said:


> That was incredibly insightful and transparent from her. Unfortunately, you should believe her when she says, she will not work in healing. That is a sad statement to make, very sad because healing is possible.


If this is truly the case, what am I fighting for?


----------



## Anon Pink

breathedeep said:


> Our current conversation via messenger. I'm posting in full so you can see and point out any mistakes I've made and hopefully I can learn better techniques.
> 
> Wife: I am so sad
> 
> me: I know
> me: I'm sorry
> 
> Wife: I cant express how sorry I am
> Wife: I feel horribly
> 
> Me: About what?
> 
> Wife: how Ive treated you
> Wife: what I said on sunday about you finding someone else
> 
> Me: I am confused
> Me: Is this separate from last night?
> 
> Wife: not really, its all the same thing that has been going on
> Wife: same topic/issue
> Wife: is it not
> Wife: ?
> 
> Me: I'm just confused because of your response last night. You were very adamant about not being sorry.
> Me: So I am trying to reconcile the two things now
> 
> Wife: I never said I wasnt sorry. In fact, Ive been saying so repeatedly
> Wife: Last night I was upset about the ultimatum
> Wife: I felt that it wasnt fair
> 
> Me: Either way, I forgive you for saying that to me
> Me: I went about what I was saying the wrong way
> Me: I am not good at execution.
> Me: And your response to me was so vehement and aggressive, it threw me off guard.
> Me: You actually scared me last night.
> 
> Wife: I dont know how else to say this, an ultimatum is absolutely the most unkind thing to deliver to someone you care about and want to trust you. I felt betrayed last night. I was stunned. You were not the man Ive known.
> Wife: You were threatening to take my family away from me.
> Wife: You scared me to
> 
> Me: I see things a different way, but I am willing to come at this from a slightly different perspective.
> 
> Wife: I realize you might see things differently but this is one of those times that you need to put yourself in someone else's shoes.
> 
> Me: I have and I am, and I still come to the same conclusion
> 
> Wife: I dont know what else to say
> Wife: if you cant see things from my perspective, there isnt anything else I can say
> Wife: I am still stunned that you think that was a perfectly fine way to handle a situation with someone you love
> 
> Me: I am not giving you an ultimatum. I am telling you that your behavior hurts me, and I need you to get help for the way you treat me. I am also telling you that sex is a huge part of marriage, and from what you've told me the past five days, our sex life is not healthy. I have a part in our sex life not being healthy, but your do too, as you have admitted. And a big part of that is due to your sexual abuse. I need a healthy sex life with my wife, and you getting help for your sexual abuse is a big part of us having a healthy sex life.
> Me: I cannot live like I have been living. I cannot live with you treating me the way you have been
> Me: The only way I can see that changing is for you to see a therapist about these issues.
> 
> Wife: and I agreed to that Sunday night and again yesterday.
> 
> Me: Then we are in agreement
> 
> Wife: Before you had even come home
> 
> Me: No ultimatums. No timelines
> Me: I am sorry that I came at you with the wrong approach
> Me: I made a mistake there
> Me: And I recognize that.
> 
> Wife: thank you. I can do all of that as long as you arent holding my marriage over my head or keeping some sort of measurement of where you think I ought to be. Do you even know what it is you think should be different with us sexually? I am concerned that you now have expectations of me and how I should or should not act
> 
> Me: I would like for us to work towards a place where you don't have to feel like you have to act to please me.
> Me: Where you don't have to put your mind somewhere else.
> Me: To a place where you allow yourself to feel your body.
> 
> Wife: This isnt just about me. Your performance concerns are front and center for you and it also keeps you from connecting with me
> Wife: You are also somewhere else essentially. And Im aware that youve said that its me but Im not sure thats entirely it. Youve also said before that youve had problems like this before.
> 
> Me: I will work through my issues just like I am asking you to do with yours.
> 
> Wife: If I have things that need to change then you do as well. Part of my reaction to you is based on the things you say and do.
> 
> Me: You seem to be missing all of the times that I have said that I know I have a part in this too. And that I am ready to do what I need to do .
> 
> Wife: No I havent missed it. The conversation has been all about me though. There has been no discussion about you other than to make that statement and thats it.
> 
> Me: I keep asking you, "What about me.. What about me?"
> Me: Your response has been nothing
> Me: Except that you are not an a$hole like me
> Me: So you aren't giving me ultimatums.
> Me: And that isn't a helpful response
> Me: So I have tried to steer the conversation in a direction that we can talk about what I can do to be better.
> Me: You have refused to engage in that discussion.
> 
> Wife: I havent. Sunday the discussion was about me and what has been going on with me. Last night was about me again and your expectations. Other than to say that you will be getting help as well, there was no discussion about that. It had nothing to do with me refusing because there was no opportunity. Making statements like that as well as throwing things Ive said in my face arent helpful either.
> 
> Me: You would barely let me talk last night. You would ask me a question and then I would try to answer, and you would talk all over my answer. So you had plenty of time to talk about me. Also, I did continue to ask you, "What can I do? What do I need to do?" You would ignore the questions and go right back on the defensive about yourself when I was clearly trying to talk about things I could do.
> 
> Wife: well then I apologize. I was terribly hurt by what you said to me last night.
> Wife: I dont know how you can expect me to follow the course of conversation you want when you hurt me like you did.
> Wife: I wanted you to see how hurtful what you did was to me but I was only getting cold unconcerned responses from you which was even more hurtful.
> 
> Me: It's not cold and unconcerned. It is me doing my best to keep control of my emotions while you are yelling at me, calling me names, swearing at me, saying hateful things to me, and generally being abusive while we are "Supposed" to be having an adult conversation. I have to almost lock down my emotions so that I do not react to your behavior in the same way you are treating me at the time.
> 
> Wife: and before it got to that point?
> 
> Me: Before it got to that point, we were having a decent conversation. You cannot tell me I am cold and uncaring before you start raising your voice with me. I go into it hoping we can have a productive conversation this time, despite how I know they typically end up in the past.
> 
> Wife: Im sorry but I felt you were.
> Wife: That is exactly why I got upset.
> Wife: I realize I handled things badly last night but I cannot accept the entire blame for what happened.
> 
> Me: You have said you got upset because you perceived I gave you an ultimatum.
> Me: You get very upset at me if I do not react to your anger and aggression towards me
> Me: It's almost like you keep pushing me on purpose just to get me to react.
> 
> Wife: That isnt what Im thinking at all. I got upset at your ultimatum. We were discussing it and I was trying to get you to see my point of view and you were very matter of fact and had what I took as a tough **** attitude in regards to how I felt. You said several things like, "thats just the way I feel." "I dont see it that way" "I dont agree with you", all of which are statements that tell me you didnt care about my feelings. Your cold and uncaring responses to me when I was trying to explain how it made me feel is what upset me. There was no intent on pushing you or trying to provoke you. I wanted you to demonstrate that you cared about me. To stop being so cold. I think you like to push a lot of this onto me like its all so calculated and its all me but you are not seeing how your behavior plays directly into this. I was pleading with you to understand my feelings and you would not. My mistake was that when you refused to show any caring toward me, I should have stopped. I just should have walked away. I just wanted you to care, thats it.
> 
> Wife: Ive said it so many times before. I just want your approval, your love, your caring.
> 
> Me: I am talking about in the past, when you keep escalating, and escalating and telling me how cold and uncaring I am. Then you swear at me, call me names, etc... I'm saying I feel
> like you escalate so that I will show you what you need, which would prove that I am caring.
> 
> Me: And I have to keep my responses like that once you become verbally abusive so that I don't say the wrong things.
> 
> Me: I know that once you go into that mode, it is best for me to say as little as possible because we are past the point of having a discussion.
> 
> Wife: Why is it you dont want to show me you care in those situations?
> 
> Me: And I've said many times that I do approve of you, and I do love you.
> 
> Wife: I know you have and I appreciate every time you do. But when we are having difficult discussions, why cant you show me then. Before escalation?
> 
> Me: I do want to show you I care, but you have to keep in mind, you are screaming at me, yelling, and it is all I can do just to keep my temper down. I keep trying to tell you, if you could calm yourself down and have a civil conversation, I could easily come back, but while you are so very angry, I have to take a step back emotionally until you can calm down.
> 
> Me: I do try before it gets to that point.
> Me: I have said before, "I love you and I do not want to leave you, but..."
> Me: Or whatever the topic is.
> 
> Wife: I keep asking this, BEFORE things escalate, why can you not show me that you care? The statement you said you used above is a very recent thing and I can only remember you saying maybe 2-3 times. You also did not start our conversation out that way last night. I have to say, that doesnt demonstrate caring per se. What demonstrates caring to me is hearing what Im saying, even if you dont agree try to understand what Im saying, try to show that you are concerned about my point of view. You keep trying to point to the escalation and skip over what is causing it.
> 
> Wife: When we have difficult discussions you are not willing at the time to ever come off your opinion or position. You dig your heels in and have a tough $h*t attitude toward me. That is what upsets me. I want to be understood.
> 
> Wife: I recognize that I am handling it all wrong, that I have to find another way to handle the way you respond to me. I cannot explain it any other way than to say that when you dont try to understand me, empathize with me and are cold with me I feel ignored, unloved and it pushes me into a fear response that you must not love me or you wouldnt do that. At the core of all of this is my fear of you not loving me, you leaving me, that I am not good enough in your eyes. Im sorry that I need that reassurance so much from you.



Remember my post about not saying "I'm sorry you feel that way".... this is exactly why it's a bad response.

The dominant emotion your wife is showing here is regret. Over and over she is showing regret and then fear. She regrets that she has no other way to cope with these conversations. She fears your abandonment. She fears her side of the street might be examined too closely. She fears she is inadequate to the task of improving her behavior.

Only 5 days have passed at this point. That's a damn blink. She is still kicking herself for letting the cat out of the bag. Still on damage control.

It's a shame you've been listening to the wrong advice here. I know you want to do what's best so I don't hold you accountable. I wish your thread had been brought to my Attention sooner. I could have countered the chorus with my own experience.

I am actually very impressed with your wife from this exchange. I wouldn't have done this. I would have made your life a living shell for threatening me.


----------



## Anon Pink

breathedeep said:


> If this is truly the case, what am I fighting for?




I'm still working my way through your thread. I would have already walked away under normal circumstances but I feel that you have been given horrible advice and not knowing any better you've followed it. I'm still here because your wife continues to impress me with her insight, though skewed, and that she calms and comes back. The fact that she calms and comes back blows me away. I would never have done that so quickly. I would have needed distance and space for several days before hindsight worked its magic.

Had I been involved in your thread from the get go I would have told you to back off and table the issue for a week or so. Allow the emotions to calm and allow everyone to process. But Fay after day this battles raged. Not good.

Yes she is following the push pull pattern of BPD. But has she ever been diagnosed with BPD? Has anyone's, other than internet strangers suggested she has strong BPD traits?

So....why did you come here and start this thread? Are you looking for help in fighting your wife to health or are you trying to win battles or do you want your marriage to work? Right now you are fighting the battles to win the battles but you're heading to losing the war if you want this marriage to work.


----------



## Pluto2

I really hate when TAM devolves like this. Listen to me. No you're wrong, listen to me.

The truth is none of us are in this relationship, and there is some portions of truth to everyone who offers help and support. What works for one couple, might work and might not work for another. Get off your high horses.


----------



## Anon Pink

*Re: Wife dropped a bomb on me last night*



breathedeep said:


> She is becoming more angry, more prone to outbursts. The frequency of these types of events is increasing. She has begun treating her children the way she has been treating me. This is what happened last night.
> 
> As I've mentioned in previous threads, her children are difficult; both have ADHD, as well as trauma related behavioral issues stemming from their parent's marriage and subsequent divorce. Her children are 13 (boy) and 6 (girl).
> 
> My wife's daughter simply won't mind. She will not do as she is told. It is more than just being stubborn, she will just outright refuse to do things she is told to do and there is no getting her to budge. Going through the bedtime process is ALWAYS an ordeal. The last few weeks have been particularly problematic. Last night it took my wife 2 hours to get her to finally shower, in pajamas, and in the bed. I was downstairs exercising as I usually do when they are doing their bedtime routine. I received a text from my wife that she needed help. At the time I didn't know what she needed help with but I told her I would be right up (I had a feeling what it was about though). As I am coming up the steps, I can hear them yelling at each other.
> 
> As I walk into her daughter's room, her daughter is on the bed covering her mouth, crying, backing across the bed to get away from my wife, and refusing to get dressed. My wife is crying, yelling at her daughter, and swearing at her, saying she is ‘f**king sick of her behavior’ and that she was going to ‘whip her a*s if she didn’t get her f**king clothes on right now.’ She then begins screaming at me, telling me she cannot take it anymore, and that she feels like ‘ending’ things right now (suicide). I told her that she needed to calm down and I didn’t think it was appropriate to be talking like that in front of her daughter (meaning the swearing and saying she is going to kill herself). She got upset at me and said she needed me to come up and help, not give her a lecture. She then turned to her daughter, yelled at her again telling her to get dressed or she was going to spank her. Her daughter said she was scared of my wife. My wife told her daughter ‘This is all your ****ing fault!’ My wife turned back to me, crying still, grabbing her head/hair in both hands saying she couldn’t take it and she was ‘felt like ending it all.’ They were both crying, screaming at each other, and I didn't know what else to do, so I asked my wife to come with me for a minute so we could talk. She refused, saying she needed to get her daughter to bed. I told her that there was nothing I could do to help with that because he daughter listens to me even less than she listens to her. She got angry with me and told me to get out, which I did.
> 
> I went to our room, shaking, worried, confused, feeling broken. I feel like I am starting to lose myself.
> 
> When she finally came out of her daughter's room. We had a brief discussion before my wife fell asleep. She asked me how she should handle that situation because nothing works with her daughter. I told her that I do not know how to handle the situation because I understand she is in a difficult spot where her ex husband will try to take her kids away if she disciplines them incorrectly. I told her that she should try remaining calm with her daughter, and if she doesn't do as she is told, do not indulge in her tantrums. If she continues, she needs to lose privileges (and my wife needs to stick to the consequences because she has a habit of saying she is going to take away games, ipads, etc... and then doesn't do it). She said that she can ask nicely and her daughter won't listen and then resorts to yelling. She told me she wished she could control what she said, but that is the way she was raised and that she won't be able to stop. I also told her she should not swear at her daughter like that, or say she was going to kill herself, especially in front of her daughter. She agreed that she shouldn't say those things to her daughter, but that she says them out of exasperation.
> 
> This morning she sent this text.
> 
> The plan for me is still the same as before. IC & MC for she and I. I have found a counselor for me, I just need to make the call today. It is on my list of things to do. She and I will be going back to our MC next week.


OMG. 

I just can't tolerate abusive behavior toward children so here I switch to advocating for your children/her children and to hell with you and your wife!

Why would you ignore tunnelling and screaming and NOT intervene? Why would you wait for an invite? A 6 year old is pretty darn easy to deal with. Even an oppositional 6 year old.

Instead: honey let's take it from here and you take a break." As you assure her you've got her back.

You see a 6 year old CLEARLY being traumatized and showing traumatised reaction and you walk away from her? What the very loving fvck? 

Instead: honey take a break.... As you calmly sit down with the child and slowly attempt to comfort them. You are the adult here and your first priority is to protect the children and you failed. But... children allow for redo, a mulligans works best. You go back to this little child and you tell them you should have comforted them and protected them and you won't make that mistake ever again.

As a result of my CSA I studied psychology and majored in child development. It was my way of redoing my childhood and understanding how my parents response left me feeling more traumatised than the traumas. Once I became a mother I knew I would KILL before I allowed anyone to even suggest they might pose a threat to my child's physical and emotional well being. I went on to advocate for and work with children in foster care and though there were many times I was sickened and heart broken I never came across a scenario that triggered me as much as the exchange you outline above. As a result, I wish you well and I hope your step children find an adult who puts their needs first. I'm out.


----------



## Anon Pink

Pluto2 said:


> I really hate when TAM devolves like this. Listen to me. No you're wrong, listen to me.
> 
> The truth is none of us are in this relationship, and there is some portions of truth to everyone who offers help and support. What works for one couple, might work and might not work for another. Get off your high horses.


But my horse sees better than yours.

Wish granted. Have at it.


----------



## breathedeep

*Re: Wife dropped a bomb on me last night*



Anon Pink said:


> OMG.
> 
> I just can't tolerate abusive behavior toward children so here I switch to advocating for your children/her children and to hell with you and your wife!
> 
> Why would you ignore tunnelling and screaming and NOT intervene? Why would you wait for an invite? A 6 year old is pretty darn easy to deal with. Even an oppositional 6 year old.
> 
> Instead: honey let's take it from here and you take a break." As you assure her you've got her back.
> 
> You see a 6 year old CLEARLY being traumatized and showing traumatised reaction and you walk away from her? What the very loving fvck?
> 
> Instead: honey take a break.... As you calmly sit down with the child and slowly attempt to comfort them. You are the adult here and your first priority is to protect the children and you failed. But... children allow for redo, a mulligans works best. You go back to this little child and you tell them you should have comforted them and protected them and you won't make that mistake ever again.
> 
> As a result of my CSA I studied psychology and majored in child development. It was my way of redoing my childhood and understanding how my parents response left me feeling more traumatised than the traumas. Once I became a mother I knew I would KILL before I allowed anyone to even suggest they might pose a threat to my child's physical and emotional well being. I went on to advocate for and work with children in foster care and though there were many times I was sickened and heart broken I never came across a scenario that triggered me as much as the exchange you outline above. As a result, I wish you well and I hope your step children find an adult who puts their needs first. I'm out.


I understand I screwed up here and should have stepped in as you describe. I am not trying to make excuses for my inaction, but you have to understand that I have spoken up in the past and my wife tells me to mind my own business when it comes to the way she parents her children. She has made it explicitly clear that I am to not get involved in parenting her children. Again, my wife is very strong-willed, and even if I had asked her to step away and come with me, it is likely she would have not done it anyway. And yes, we will never know because I didn't step in, but I will know what to do next time.

I understand you are not participating in this thread anymore, but I want to thank you for your contribution. You have given me another perspective to consider.


----------



## Pluto2

Anon Pink said:


> But my horse sees better than yours.
> 
> Wish granted. Have at it.


 @Anon Pink, please, I wasn't suggesting that anyone leave, or that anyone's advice might not have value. And I certainly was NOT directing this at you. Sorry if it came across that way.

Complicated issues never have a single solution.


----------



## As'laDain

Blossom Leigh said:


> Were there children involved?


Yep. We had a baby girl.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

As'laDain said:


> Yep. We had a baby girl.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


awww... did you guys struggle with protecting her or were y'all able to do it well?


----------



## As'laDain

Blossom Leigh said:


> awww... did you guys struggle with protecting her or were y'all able to do it well?


I would say we struggled. We had MANY incidents very similar to the OP and his wife. With the screaming, exasperation, allusions to suicide, etc. Many that were worse. Many times where our daughter was yanked back and forth and didn't know what was going on. I can't tell you how many times my wife threatened to leave me and take her daughter with her, or leave her with me because, in her words, she was too broken to be a parent. 

I told her one day that she would not be getting her wedding ring back if she through it at me again... I think that was the first time I actually imposed a consequence for her behaviors. I cut her ring to pieces the next time she threw it at me. And it didn't destroy us. She apologized for throwing it at me, and I agreed to get her another one, with the understanding that I will cut it up if she throws it at me again. She never did it again. She knew that I did not want to destroy her ring, but I said I would, so I followed through. And I didn't resent her for it. 

I mean, how can I teach her to believe what I say if I don't stick to my word?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## breathedeep

As'laDain said:


> I would say we struggled. We had MANY incidents very similar to the OP and his wife. With the screaming, exasperation, allusions to suicide, etc. Many that were worse. Many times where our daughter was yanked back and forth and didn't know what was going on. I can't tell you how many times my wife threatened to leave me and take her daughter with her, or *leave her with me because, in her words, she was too broken to be a parent.*
> 
> I told her one day that she would not be getting her wedding ring back if she through it at me again... I think that was the first time I actually imposed a consequence for her behaviors. I cut her ring to pieces the next time she threw it at me. And it didn't destroy us. She apologized for throwing it at me, and I agreed to get her another one, with the understanding that I will cut it up if she throws it at me again. She never did it again. She knew that I did not want to destroy her ring, but I said I would, so I followed through. And I didn't resent her for it.
> 
> I mean, how can I teach her to believe what I say if I don't stick to my word?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's amazing how our experiences are so similar, except in the case of the bolded text above, my wife threatens to send her kids to live with her ex.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

As'laDain said:


> I would say we struggled. We had MANY incidents very similar to the OP and his wife. With the screaming, exasperation, allusions to suicide, etc. Many that were worse. Many times where our daughter was yanked back and forth and didn't know what was going on. I can't tell you how many times my wife threatened to leave me and take her daughter with her, or leave her with me because, in her words, she was too broken to be a parent.
> 
> I told her one day that she would not be getting her wedding ring back if she through it at me again... I think that was the first time I actually imposed a consequence for her behaviors. I cut her ring to pieces the next time she threw it at me. And it didn't destroy us. She apologized for throwing it at me, and I agreed to get her another one, with the understanding that I will cut it up if she throws it at me again. She never did it again. She knew that I did not want to destroy her ring, but I said I would, so I followed through. And I didn't resent her for it.
> 
> I mean, how can I teach her to believe what I say if I don't stick to my word?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agree... When things started getting too rough at home and my son was literally throwing his body in front of me to protect me from his Dad, I knew I had to make a shift in protecting him from anymore exposure. I drew lines in the sand too and it impacted my H just like it impacted your wife. My son still shows issues from that time between us that we are now working on healing. How is your daughter?


----------



## Thor

Anon Pink said:


> Uptown, you know I respect you like crazy, but I just don't see BPD here because the CSA can very easily be the cause and culprit of every behavior issue.


Way back before I knew of my wife's CSA, somewhere I came across some info on BPD. It _sort of_ fit very well, but not quite. I ended up thinking of her as "bpd-ish" but not BPD. But if I described some of the events to outsiders they might easily decide she was BPD. She isn't BPD, of that I am certain.

Breathedeep, you are not qualified to be her therapist, which I'm pretty sure I've already written several times in your thread. Nor can you be her therapist, because you just aren't a Safe person to her. Your wife may or may not have BPD or any other personality disorder. Until she is willing to honestly work hard with her private IC, she has no chance of any substantive healing.

With my wife, the birth of the first baby, which happened to be a girl, really set her off. There were problems prior to that, mostly related to sex, but now looking back I can see patterns. Over time as the kids got older, her severe over protectiveness of the kids reduced in how it presented to me, though it was still there. And it has led to our current crises.

Anyhow all that to say your wife may have better and worse periods, but until she gets that good trauma therapy to deal with her inner demons she isn't going to heal.

You can judge things really on two things. First, is she going to therapy and participating? Things may actually get worse for a while, in fact they will get worse. You should be in contact with her therapist periodically to get advice on how you can help with the process, but don't expect to be informed about what is going in in therapy with your wife. That will be private. Still, if your wife is actually doing real trauma therapy you will know it. Secondly, you can judge her behavior. Since you cannot ever know what she is really thinking or feeling, you can only judge her behavior. Her current behavior is not acceptable. If it starts improving that is good, but it still needs to become acceptable at some point.


----------



## As'laDain

Blossom Leigh said:


> Agree... When things started getting too rough at home and my son was literally throwing his body in front of me to protect me from his Dad, I knew I had to make a shift in protecting him from anymore exposure. I drew lines in the sand too and it impacted my H just like it impacted your wife. My son still shows issues from that time between us that we are now working on healing. How is your daughter?


She is doing good. A very active and happy little girl. Her active mind sometimes gets her into trouble at school though. She likes to talk if she doesn't have work to do. She is starting to understand that she is the only person who is responsible for her actions, and other people are responsible for theirs. For instance, when she throws a fit because she is frustrated with something and does something she knows she shouldnt, I ask her who is responsible for her actions. She says she is. When her mother used to get angry all the time, I would ask her the same question: who is responsible for her mother's actions? She says mommy is. Even when I discipline her, she is ok with it. She knows I love her, and knows that I am doing something that will be unpleasant for her, but she can verbalize the logic: to give her something that will remind her to control her own behavior. It's amazing to see her grow like that. The outbursts are getting pretty rare.

She is pretty ADD though. Giving her a book helps... she reads it when she is done with her work and writes the words down that she doesn't know, and then we go over them with her after at the end of the day, tell her how to pronounce them and use them in context. Lately, she has been reading through this book: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Moved_My_Cheese?

Pretty good for a six year old.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

As'laDain said:


> She is doing good. A very active and happy little girl. Her active mind sometimes gets her into trouble at school though. She likes to talk if she doesn't have work to do. She is starting to understand that she is the only person who is responsible for her actions, and other people are responsible for theirs. For instance, when she throws a fit because she is frustrated with something and does something she knows she shouldnt, I ask her who is responsible for her actions. She says she is. When her mother used to get angry all the time, I would ask her the same question: who is responsible for her mother's actions? She says mommy is. Even when I discipline her, she is ok with it. She knows I love her, and knows that I am doing something that will be unpleasant for her, but she can verbalize the logic: to give her something that will remind her to control her own behavior. It's amazing to see her grow like that. The outbursts are getting pretty rare.
> 
> She is pretty ADD though. Giving her a book helps... she reads it when she is done with her work and writes the words down that she doesn't know, and then we go over them with her after at the end of the day, tell her how to pronounce them and use them in context. Lately, she has been reading through this book: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Moved_My_Cheese?
> 
> Pretty good for a six year old.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Very glad to hear it. We have been focusing in the same areas. When my H was gone in our separation and he would ask about his Dad I would tell him that he was spending time learning better choices and when he has done that he will be back. That each individual is responsible for their poor choices and their good choices. I like the effect that language is having with him. But he too is a bit hyper and I believe some of that is him still processing on some levels. He also experiences deep pain when his friends can't play. To the degree that it seems a bit outside of normal, so we are working with him to be more centered and flexible and reassure him that he is loved. I just don't know how much of what we put him through will affect him as an adult. He is 7 now.


----------



## As'laDain

Blossom Leigh said:


> Very glad to hear it. We have been focusing in the same areas. When my H was gone in our separation and he would ask about his Dad I would tell him that he was spending time learning better choices and when he has done that he will be back. That each individual is responsible for their poor choices and their good choices. I like the effect that language is having with him. But he too is a bit hyper and I believe some of that is him still processing on some levels. He also experiences deep pain when his friends can't play. To the degree that it seems a bit outside of normal, so we are working with him to be more centered and flexible and reassure him that he is loved. I just don't know how much of what we put him through will affect him as an adult. He is 7 now.


I wouldn't worry too much about the future. Just teach him as many good lessons as you can while you have the opportunity. My wife and I were both raised in dysfunctional house holds full of screaming, anger, and abuse. We had to teach ourselves those good lessons, but we are doing good today. 

If you can teach him that his actions are completely up to him and that they influence his environment (which includes other people), then he will be equipped with everything he needs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

As'laDain said:


> I wouldn't worry too much about the future. Just teach him as many good lessons as you can while you have the opportunity. My wife and I were both raised in dysfunctional house holds full of screaming, anger, and abuse. We had to teach ourselves those good lessons, but we are doing good today.
> 
> *If you can teach him that his actions are completely up to him and that they influence his environment (which includes other people), then he will be equipped with everything he needs.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Very much agree.

I have endeavored since 2005 to break the cycle of abuse in my family and my H made that choice in 2014, both of us learning better as well. Love your story and of others who have done the same. Thanks for the encouragement.


----------



## As'laDain

breathedeep said:


> It's amazing how our experiences are so similar, except in the case of the bolded text above, my wife threatens to send her kids to live with her ex.


What you need to fully grasp, if you want to influence your wife's behavior, is that you are what you do. Your actions determine which kind of person you are. They define WHO you are. Your emotions, your fears, your anxieties, they are just experiences. They mean nothing in terms of your worth. They do not define you at all. Put another way, they cannot be right nor can they be wrong. No more than the feeling of wind on your face defines you. It's just a feeling. 

As long as you have the ability to make a choice and choose an action, you have the ability to define who you are. Think about it... that means you can change who you are at a moments notice. You can literally change who you are, just by doing something different. 

If you really think about it, it's silly to love someone for WHO they are. After all, who they are can change at a moments notice. Who they are is their choices. Their choices, their behavior, it's all you see. You don't perceive what they are, you perceive WHO they are. If you love someone for who they are, you literally love them because of your own perceptions! But wow, when they change their actions, and thereby change who they are, you really are in a world of hurt!

If you love them for what they are, you will understand that you can influence THEIR perceptions of YOU. You do that the same way they influence your perceptions of them; you do it via your own actions. If your wife thinks that her emotions are a part of WHO she is, she will believe that she is incapable of change since she cannot change her emotions. She will believe that she is incapable of changing the actions because the emotions are a part of who she is, and that false view is what is causing the actions. If her actions are dictated by her emotions, then how could you possibly love her? If you only knew how much shame she feels, if you only knew what kind of a terrible person she is, you couldn't possibly love her. Who could love so much shame?

What a terrifying thought! If people really knew how shameful she is... 


Do you see why she pushes you away? Anon Pink was spot on when she said your wife was afraid of getting too close to you. If you really got close to her, then you, you would see who she really is, and you could never love her, because she doesn't love herself. 

This is why you are going to have to teach her that you don't love her for who she is, you love her because it is who you choose to be. You will choose to be the kind of person who finds ways to motivate her to change her behavior in order to teach her that she literally gets to choose who she is. You will have to show her that there is nothing she can do to lose your love, because it has nothing to do with what she does anyway. You will have to provide boundaries, even when you don't want to. Even when it scares you. You will have to provide praise and affection, even when you don't feel it. You will have to discern when to choose an action to influence her in order to provide the motivation for your wife to choose to be someone that SHE can love. 

Do you think you are capable of this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TX-SC

This is a problem that requires IC and a lot of talk. She needs to be able to relax and trust you so she can enjoy it. Don't push the issue, but try to work slowly into doing things she can enjoy. Perhaps reduce PIV sex for a while and concentrate on other things. Mutual masturbation, oral, etc. might be a way to relax her tension for a time. But, IC is a must.


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## breathedeep

As'laDain said:


> Do you see why she pushes you away? Anon Pink was spot on when she said your wife was afraid of getting too close to you. If you really got close to her, then you, you would see who she really is, and you could never love her, because she doesn't love herself.


Yes, Anon was absolutely correct. Others in this thread have stated the same thing. And I understand why she does what she does, for the most part.



> This is why you are going to have to teach her that you don't love her for who she is, you love her because it is who you choose to be. You will choose to be the kind of person who finds ways to motivate her to change her behavior in order to teach her that she literally gets to choose who she is. *You will have to show her that there is nothing she can do to lose your love, because it has nothing to do with what she does anyway.* You will have to provide boundaries, even when you don't want to. Even when it scares you. You will have to provide praise and affection, even when you don't feel it. You will have to discern when to choose an action to influence her in order to provide the motivation for your wife to choose to be someone that SHE can love.
> 
> Do you think you are capable of this?


The bold part is the part that trips me up. I do love her and she could do almost anything within her range of ability and personality, and I would continue to love her. However, that doesn't mean that I can continue to be with her unconditionally. For example, if she ever escalated to physical violence, I would leave immediately. The other things I can do, I just have to learn how and when to do them. I have difficulty understanding these types of situations when small nuances come into play.


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## breathedeep

TX-SC said:


> This is a problem that requires IC and a lot of talk. She needs to be able to relax and trust you so she can enjoy it. Don't push the issue, but try to work slowly into doing things she can enjoy. Perhaps reduce PIV sex for a while and concentrate on other things. Mutual masturbation, oral, etc. might be a way to relax her tension for a time. But, IC is a must.


I haven't pushed the issue at all since I spoke with her about it the weekend of her disclosure to me. I didn't even bring it up in MC; I stepped back and waited for her to bring it up, which she did. She knows my position now, so I am giving her space to make the choice on how to proceed next.

As a side note, we have had many heated conversations since MC last Friday, but none have escalated to the point they had previously. It has been much easier to engage in conversation with her. I am hopeful this trend will continue.


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## turnera

breathedeep said:


> I haven't pushed the issue at all since I spoke with her about it the weekend of her disclosure to me. I didn't even bring it up in MC; I stepped back and waited for her to bring it up, which she did.


She told the MC about her CSA?


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## Annie123

turnera said:


> She told the MC about her CSA?


Yes, breathe wrote about it in post #449


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## breathedeep

Annie123 said:


> Yes, breathe wrote about it in post #449


Yes, she did, but she downplayed it quite a bit - so much so that she said that it doesn't affect her now, and the issues she has right now are not related to the CSA and mostly related to the abuse she suffered during her previous marriage. She said this was the reason she was so confused at why I was so emphatic she gets help for her CSA-related issues.

It was glossed over during that session, but as someone mentioned earlier, the therapist may feel she is more fragile and needs to work into the issue more carefully with her.


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## jld

breathedeep said:


> It was glossed over during that session, but as someone mentioned earlier, *the therapist may feel she is more fragile and needs to work into the issue more carefully with her*.


This.

I am so glad you have a wise counselor.


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## breathedeep

jld said:


> This.
> 
> I am so glad you have a wise counselor.


The look on his face when I told him about the incident with her daughter let me know he got it. I also believe he was taken by surprise and may not have been ready for such a revelation regarding the CSA, and may need some time to get his game plan together.

I do believe this is the case (easing into it), and I do not believe he will let it slip through the cracks.


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## jld

breathedeep said:


> The look on his face when I told him about the incident with his daughter told me he got it.
> 
> I do believe this is the case (easing into it), and I do not believe he will let it slip through the cracks.


He seems experienced. Again, I feel a lot of trust in him, just from what you have said.


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## turnera

Yeah, I'd just let him deal with it then. But do NOT gloss over things that she does. He should be smart enough to see the connection.


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## As'laDain

breathedeep said:


> Yes, Anon was absolutely correct. Others in this thread have stated the same thing. And I understand why she does what she does, for the most part.
> 
> 
> 
> The bold part is the part that trips me up. I do love her and she could do almost anything within her range of ability and personality, and I would continue to love her. However, that doesn't mean that I can continue to be with her unconditionally. For example, if she ever escalated to physical violence, I would leave immediately. The other things I can do, I just have to learn how and when to do them. I have difficulty understanding these types of situations when small nuances come into play.


You are absolutely correct. You cannot simply accept her destructive behavior. That said, there is probably something you could do that would cause her to start correcting the negative behavior on her own. You just have to find out what motivates her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza

Thor said:


> Breathedeep, you are not qualified to be her therapist





breathedeep said:


> she downplayed it quite a bit - so much so that she said that it doesn't affect her now, and the issues she has right now are not related to the CSA and mostly related to the abuse she suffered during her previous marriage.


If you agree with what Thor wrote, then you need to think about what you wrote here, and recognise that you are not objective. Do you have preconceptions about the part CSA plays in things, or the conclusion the counsellor must reach? Are you open to rethink your perspective based on the counselling process?


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## breathedeep

Wazza said:


> If you agree with what Thor wrote, then you need to think about what you wrote here, and recognise that you are not objective. Do you have preconceptions about the part CSA plays in things, or the conclusion the counsellor must reach? Are you open to rethink your perspective based on the counselling process?


I absolutely agree with what Thor wrote. I think it is very obvious by my posts that I am about as far from being a qualified therapist as one can be, and I don't pretend to be.

That said, my preconceived notions about the CSA playing a big part in things is based on two things: 1) What she told me that Thursday evening that led to this post, and 2) what others have written here.

On Thursday after our MC session, she told me that because of her CSA, she has these issues, problems, coping mechanisms, triggers, etc... (they are all here in this thread, so I won't rehash all of that). When I began asking questions, pressing her a little (maybe too much, maybe not enough depending on your perspective), she began changing her story and said she didn't mean what she said. Then in MC she said I was over reacting and the real problem was her abusive marriage.

I posted the events as they occurred in almost real-time, and I got other's feedback here, which very closely matched my experience with her.

I am no therapist and I recognize that I am not objective, but I am basing my preconceptions that the CSA plays a part here on what she first told me, and then how events played out after that.

I do accept that it is possible I am reading this all wrong, however.


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## Thor

breathedeep said:


> I am no therapist and I recognize that I am not objective, but I am basing my preconceptions that the CSA plays a part here on what she first told me, and then how events played out after that.
> 
> I do accept that it is possible I am reading this all wrong, however.


Just to clarify what I meant by "you are not qualified to be her therapist". You can't come up with treatment plans, nor can you guide her the way a therapist would. You certainly *can* observe her and apply knowledge to come to your personal _opinion_ on what is going on with her.

She needs a good therapist to diagnose her and to give her therapy. One mistake I commonly see is a husband thinking CSA is a diy project. Many marriage issues are as effectively dealt with on a diy basis as they are in a therapist's office. Some good books can make all the difference. _But CSA is different_ and requires professional therapy.

But you should judge her behavior as either acceptable or not, to you and for the kids. You can observe her, listen to what she says, and come to conclusions about whether she is healing and being genuine. You can come to opinions on whether you think the MC is on track or not.


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## breathedeep

Thor said:


> Just to clarify what I meant by "you are not qualified to be her therapist". You can't come up with treatment plans, nor can you guide her the way a therapist would. You certainly *can* observe her and apply knowledge to come to your personal _opinion_ on what is going on with her.
> 
> She needs a good therapist to diagnose her and to give her therapy. One mistake I commonly see is a husband thinking CSA is a diy project. Many marriage issues are as effectively dealt with on a diy basis as they are in a therapist's office. Some good books can make all the difference. _But CSA is different_ and requires professional therapy.
> 
> But you should judge her behavior as either acceptable or not, to you and for the kids. You can observe her, listen to what she says, and come to conclusions about whether she is healing and being genuine. You can come to opinions on whether you think the MC is on track or not.


Thank you for the clarification. My next challenge will be discerning whether she is making progress, or acting like she is making progress.


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## Wazza

breathedeep said:


> I absolutely agree with what Thor wrote. I think it is very obvious by my posts that I am about as far from being a qualified therapist as one can be, and I don't pretend to be.
> 
> That said, my preconceived notions about the CSA playing a big part in things is based on two things: 1) What she told me that Thursday evening that led to this post, and 2) what others have written here.
> 
> On Thursday after our MC session, she told me that because of her CSA, she has these issues, problems, coping mechanisms, triggers, etc... (they are all here in this thread, so I won't rehash all of that). When I began asking questions, pressing her a little (maybe too much, maybe not enough depending on your perspective), she began changing her story and said she didn't mean what she said. Then in MC she said I was over reacting and the real problem was her abusive marriage.
> 
> I posted the events as they occurred in almost real-time, and I got other's feedback here, which very closely matched my experience with her.
> 
> I am no therapist and I recognize that I am not objective, but I am basing my preconceptions that the CSA plays a part here on what she first told me, and then how events played out after that.
> 
> I do accept that it is possible I am reading this all wrong, however.


I don't know much about CSA, so while I have read all your thread and have been following real time for a while, I am not posting much.

All I was saying was, keep an open mind. Let the therapy go where it will, being open that CSA might be only one issue among several that you have to confront. Recognise that this is all very emotional, and its hard to be objective. 

It's sad that Anon Pink withdrew. Not saying she is right and everyone else wrong, but I thought there was some good stuff in what she wrote, and a wider range of perspectives is useful.


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## Wazza

Thor said:


> Just to clarify what I meant by "you are not qualified to be her therapist". You can't come up with treatment plans, nor can you guide her the way a therapist would. You certainly *can* observe her and apply knowledge to come to your personal _opinion_ on what is going on with her.
> 
> She needs a good therapist to diagnose her and to give her therapy. One mistake I commonly see is a husband thinking CSA is a diy project. Many marriage issues are as effectively dealt with on a diy basis as they are in a therapist's office. Some good books can make all the difference. _But CSA is different_ and requires professional therapy.
> 
> But you should judge her behavior as either acceptable or not, to you and for the kids. You can observe her, listen to what she says, and come to conclusions about whether she is healing and being genuine. You can come to opinions on whether you think the MC is on track or not.


For the record this is pretty much what I thought you meant when I quoted you. 

I'd probably add that it is the job of the therapist to diagnose, and that while the husband is totally right to have opinions, he needs to be open to input from the professional in evolving them.

I like your last para, particularly when the welfare of the kids is involved. Do you, or others, have any guidance on what a "cure" for CSA might look like, or how long it might take?


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## As'laDain

CSA is different and requires professional therapy...


Now that you mention it, my wife did go see a therapist once. She saw him five or six times after she was hospitalized for psychological issues while I was in iraq. No mention of CSA to the therapist. She went once after i got back and never went again. All the CSA issues were dealt with between the two of us. 

Breathedeep,

So far as a "cure" for CSA... well, they aren't likely to change how they emotionally respond to things, but they can learn that there is no shame in their feelings. When my wife learned this, the thing she lost was fear. Without the fear of me finding out how shameful she was, the anger Whent with it. She no longer needed to push me away. Her actions today are those of someone who has not suffered any kind of trauma in her life that she cannot deal with. It took me about three years to figure out what I needed to do, and it took her a couple years after that to change her own behaviors. She no longer hates herself. In fact, she is quite proud of herself for how well she conducts herself in her life and her relationships. And I gotta say, I'm proud of her too.

But it started with me changing. Most people will tell you that people don't really change. I have come to believe that they say this because they have never changed themselves, so they don't see it as possible. They may believe that lie that our emotions say something about who we are. 

My experiences from my own changes is that when I change, everyone around me changes. You change, they perceive you, they change in response to you. 

One last note... CSA is not something you can cure. It's not a disease, so it's not what needs the cure. The pain it causes can be treated, and in cases like my wife, cured. PTSD is like that. I didn't need to be cured of the events that disturbed me in iraq. I needed to be cured of the post trauma stress. There was nothing inherently wrong with with me in terms of what I experienced, I just didn't know that I could get past it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor

Wazza said:


> Do you, or others, have any guidance on what a "cure" for CSA might look like, or how long it might take?


There is no cure. Some effects will be there forever. I have never known a CSA survivor who shook off all of the issues. Some seem to learn to cope pretty well, though they still have some struggles. Many learn to overcome the big issues but still there are a lifetime of learned behaviors and reactions which can't be undone.

I know one woman who in one weekend of unrelated self reflection group therapy had an epiphany and realized she had conflated the abuse into something vastly larger than it should be. She saw how she had incorrectly associated her husband and other males with the man who had abused her. She saw how she had caused the demise of her first marriage unnecessarily, though she didn't know better at the time. She certainly will have various challenges from time to time in her current marriage, as I see some behaviors and indications of leftovers, such as a need for control. But I also see a very happy close marriage, too.

I know one woman who has been in IC on and off (mostly on) for the last 20 years, and still has some significant self esteem and sex issues. Her husband left her about 15 years ago and she's never remarried. She's dated some but always had significant relationship issues.

Each person will be different in how severe the abuse was, how those around her reacted to the abuse, and how deeply she was affected. Some seem to do well with therapy, others never seem to make much progress.

I think one could expect things to get worse for some months when she starts real therapy. After that I think typically you're looking at years rather than months of therapy. If something could be called a cure, I think it would have to include a change in perceptions, and an understanding of how defective her previous thought processes were. That first woman I mentioned above said things to me which were very much like a remorseful cheater would say. She told me how she had unfairly thought of him as the enemy (not exactly her word but the same idea), and how she had been mean and hurtful to him as a result. She wouldn't let me even try to comfort her that she didn't know better at the time. She insisted that regardless she was in the wrong to have been like that to him, and she felt very badly for it. Also, I think someone who has been successfully through therapy for any significant emotional issues is open to discussing things in the future when something goes poorly. If she triggers, or if she over reacts, etc, she would be open to talking about it.


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## Blossom Leigh

*I like these thoughts on healthy ultimatums and is reflective of my own personal experience breathe.. be encouraged that she didn't tell a therapist for decades, but she did end up telling *after* your ultimatum. If she chooses to stay on the path of healing, I predict she gets over the ultimatum and see's it as a gift. It would be interesting to know what your counselor says about the use of an ultimatum in a high frequency abuse situation. The other day he addressed the ultimatum *before* he knew about her abuse. I hope that has subsided some more, but are you still planning to tell him the full story on that so that he has the most accurate information to work from? I would like to hear him readdress it after he hears the level of abuse that was going on. Please share here if he comments.*


*
The Upside of Ultimatums: Giving Healthy Ultimatums*


Posted by Erika C. 


On Monday we discussed the dangers of ultimatums, and just to be clear, there are a lot of downsides to ultimatums. In fact, I would say that probably 95% of times when you are tempted to give an ultimatum, you should resist. However,* there are some times when ultimatums are healthy, and even necessary*. If you are trying to decide whether or not to give an ultimatum, here are some things to consider.


*1. Is the Issue Absolutely Essential?*

Consistent cheating, alcoholism, drug abuse, or persistent lying may be issues where an ultimatum is necessary. Issues that seem smaller may require ultimatums as well, particularly those issues that must be resolved for the relationship to continue. If the issue is not serious enough that you would be willing to leave the relationship if the issue is not resolved, another method is more likely to be helpful. Cloud and Townsend’s excellent book Boundaries in Marriage may be helpful if you have difficulty determining how to set healthy boundaries without resorting to ultimatums.

*2. Have You Tried All Other Avenues?*

*Because an ultimatum is so drastic, and can be so tough on a relationship, every other avenue should be explored first, except in cases where the situation must change immediately for safety reasons (abuse, etc.).* Have you discussed solutions with your partner and given those solutions time to work? Have you considered your own contribution to the issue? Have you tried relationship counseling, either on your own or with your partner? Have you asked for advice from others who have been there? Have you given the issue time to see if it will resolve on its own? Don’t give an ultimatum until you are absolutely sure you have no other options.


*3. Does Your Ultimatum Focus on What You Will Do?*

One of the essentials for setting healthy boundaries (which is what you are doing if you use ultimatums correctly) is to focus on what you will change if the other person does not respect the boundary you set up. For example, if your partner is endangering your children through alcoholism, you might state that if he does not demonstrate a commitment to sobriety within a certain time frame, you will be moving out with the children until he has done so. This is not about punishing your partner, but about maintaining your health and safety and that of your family. In a marriage, the ultimatum should have a serious consequence, but one other than ending the relationship if at all possible, at least initially. You can always raise the consequences for an ultimatum, but it is difficult to lower them. Ultimately, the goal of an ultimatum should be to make life better for your family and your partner, not to punish your partner.

*4. Are You Committed to Following Through?*

If you give an ultimatum following the guidelines we have discussed already, you are likely to be giving an ultimatum for which there are very serious consequences if your partner if your partner chooses not to follow through with what you are asking of them. Before you actually give any ultimatum, you should make sure you are willing to accept the consequences of your partner’s decision and to follow through. If you are not willing to do that, you should not give an ultimatum. When someone chooses to ignore an ultimatum, they often apply intense pressure on the other person not to follow through. Not only that, but they may enlist your friends and family to convince you that you are being unfair, cruel, and heartless, and that you should not follow through. Before you give an ultimatum, you should be absolutely sure of your decision if at all possible.


*Example of a Healthy Ultimatum*

I think an experience I had while dating will be helpful in illustrating what a healthy ultimatum looks like. During college, I dated someone who was unable to commit emotionally to our relationship. For seven months, he frequently questioned whether he wanted to be dating, with no signs of a decision either way. I liked him very much, but by the time we had been together for ten months, my self-esteem was in tatters, and I was quickly sinking into depression. It had become an essential issue. Even though we were only dating, I worked extensively with him on the issue, sought advice from trusted friends, and even went into individual counseling. To be frank, I put up with much more than I should have: the threshold for ultimatums in dating is much lower than it is in marriage (and it should be). If you are dating and someone is behaving badly to the point of needing an ultimatum, you should generally move on.

Anyway, I finally had him give me a time-frame for when he would make a decision to either commit fully to the relationship or break up with me. He chose a date that was over a month away. I let him know that if he had not reached a decision by that time, I would break up with him. (Normally the focus of an ultimatum should be on the action that you will take, but in this case I suspected that he was hoping I would do the breaking up for him, so I put the responsibility on his shoulders and had my action as a backup.)

When we finally reached that date, he broke up with me. No, reader, that man is not my husband. As much as I missed him at first, I felt primarily a sense of relief; my depression lifted and my self-esteem slowly began to recover. He soon met another woman who he felt able to commit to, and they are now happily married, as am I.


Now, I’m not saying this story shows the ideal for ultimatums if you are married. For one thing, an ultimatum given in marriage should have an initial result besides ending the relationship if at all possible. Still, I think it shows the main ideas of giving an ultimatum: It should be done thoughtfully, only for essential issues, and can lead to good results in the long term even if the results are stressful in the short term.


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## MachoMcCoy

Interesting that her story changed. She should REALLY pick one and stick with it. If she could have seen how all of you are buying into it, NO WAY would she have changed strategies.

Two more sessions then she quits. He doesn't GET her and he's on YOUR SIDE!!

Seen it a million times.


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## Annie123

breathedeep said:


> Yes, she did, but she downplayed it quite a bit - so much so that she said that it doesn't affect her now, and the issues she has right now are not related to the CSA and mostly related to the abuse she suffered during her previous marriage. She said this was the reason she was so confused at why I was so emphatic she gets help for her CSA-related issues.
> 
> It was glossed over during that session, but as someone mentioned earlier, the therapist may feel she is more fragile and needs to work into the issue more carefully with her.


Did you have your second MC session yet? How are you feeling regarding everything?


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## breathedeep

Annie123 said:


> Did you have your second MC session yet? How are you feeling regarding everything?


We had our second MC session a few weeks ago. This was the session in which she brought up her CSA. We haven't had a third session yet, although she remembers our second session differently than I do. She says that our counselor 'referred us out' to someone else, saying that she and I need a more intensive approach right now than a few 1-hour sessions can give us. This was the part I was talking about in this thread when I mentioned he recommended a weekend couples retreat. I don't think he meant for us to stop seeing him, but she believes that is what he meant, so I need to get clarification from him on his exact intentions.

As for her anger and our constant arguing, she and I haven't argued since the last time I mentioned it in this thread. She has been extremely understanding, loving, reasonable, etc... and her anger and temper seem to be under control. She is really handling her emotions much better than I've seen in quite some time. She says that something clicked inside of her head and she realized how inappropriate her behavior has been. It's only been a few weeks, but I am optimistic she did have some kind of epiphany.

Her dealing with her CSA, on the other hand, seems to have been put on the backburner. You may remember that she gave me a few books to read on the subject. I've been reading one entitled _Allies in Healing_. She asked me how it was going, and I told her it was going well, but our road ahead was going to be tough. She asked what I meant by that, and I began explaining some of the things I am reading in the book. For example, how she may have to 'confront' her abuser (her brother) in order to really heal. She absolutely refuses to do this, saying she does not want to stir up the family. She says she sees no point in confronting him.

I was also telling her more about what I am reading in the book, describing CSA survivors, the emotional damage they've endured, how this manifests in our relationship, the hardships it can present in a relationship, and what both she and I need to do to make our relationship work. Her response to this was that it was extremely harsh. She disagreed with much of it and said the description of CSA survivors doesn't describe her at all. She says she's already worked through her CSA issues and doesn't see the use in any of the advice given in the book. I reminded her that this was the book that she recommended to me so that I could understand her and be a better partner to her. She said that she read it a long time ago and had forgotten most of what was in it, and that I should not bother reading anymore because it was a waste of my time. I am still reading it, however.

So, here is we are with things: her anger issues, for now, seem to be under control. However, she seems to be rugsweeping the CSA as her story has completely turned 180*. She fully asserts that it has no bearing on her behavior or our relationship. I suspect she has no intention of addressing it right now.


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## Blossom Leigh

Look up Hoovering on Out of the FOG

As well as Cycles of Abuse


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## turnera

Why should she address it?

You're still there. Accepting her not addressing it.

smh


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## Annie123

breathedeep said:


> We had our second MC session a few weeks ago. This was the session in which she brought up her CSA. We haven't had a third session yet, although she remembers our second session differently than I do. She says that our counselor 'referred us out' to someone else, saying that she and I need a more intensive approach right now than a few 1-hour sessions can give us. This was the part I was talking about in this thread when I mentioned he recommended a weekend couples retreat. I don't think he meant for us to stop seeing him, but she believes that is what he meant, so I need to get clarification from him on his exact intentions.
> 
> As for her anger and our constant arguing, she and I haven't argued since the last time I mentioned it in this thread. She has been extremely understanding, loving, reasonable, etc... and her anger and temper seem to be under control. She is really handling her emotions much better than I've seen in quite some time. She says that something clicked inside of her head and she realized how inappropriate her behavior has been. It's only been a few weeks, but I am optimistic she did have some kind of epiphany.
> 
> Her dealing with her CSA, on the other hand, seems to have been put on the backburner. You may remember that she gave me a few books to read on the subject. I've been reading one entitled _Allies in Healing_. She asked me how it was going, and I told her it was going well, but our road ahead was going to be tough. She asked what I meant by that, and I began explaining some of the things I am reading in the book. For example, how she may have to 'confront' her abuser (her brother) in order to really heal. She absolutely refuses to do this, saying she does not want to stir up the family. She says she sees no point in confronting him.
> 
> I was also telling her more about what I am reading in the book, describing CSA survivors, the emotional damage they've endured, how this manifests in our relationship, the hardships it can present in a relationship, and what both she and I need to do to make our relationship work. Her response to this was that it was extremely harsh. She disagreed with much of it and said the description of CSA survivors doesn't describe her at all. She says she's already worked through her CSA issues and doesn't see the use in any of the advice given in the book. I reminded her that this was the book that she recommended to me so that I could understand her and be a better partner to her. She said that she read it a long time ago and had forgotten most of what was in it, and that I should not bother reading anymore because it was a waste of my time. I am still reading it, however.
> 
> So, here is we are with things: her anger issues, for now, seem to be under control. However, she seems to be rugsweeping the CSA as her story has completely turned 180*. She fully asserts that it has no bearing on her behavior or our relationship. I suspect she has no intention of addressing it right now.


Thanks for the reply. Yes, I meant the third session (the session after the one where she talked about CSA).
See, she CAN control her anger, which means that when she does yell at you or the kids, she chooses to do so. It's great that things are peaceful now and I hope they can stay that way. I'd read what Blossom posted just in case because in my opinion that's more likely the case here, and not an honest and sincere change. It's her thought process that makes it OK for her to have angry outbursts and the change won't be permanent until she changes the way she thinks.

I don't know what to tell you regarding her refusing to keep talking about CSA... It's not good. There's no change there. Just be strong and keep reinforcing your boundaries, that's all you can do. You can't make her do anything, you can only do things for YOU and your kid.


----------



## Wazza

Anon Pink said:


> So....why did you come here and start this thread? Are you looking for help in fighting your wife to health or are you trying to win battles or do you want your marriage to work? Right now you are fighting the battles to win the battles but you're heading to losing the war if you want this marriage to work.





Thor said:


> There is no cure. Some effects will be there forever. I have never known a CSA survivor who shook off all of the issues.





turnera said:


> Why should she address it?
> 
> You're still there. Accepting her not addressing it.
> 
> smh


You have to pick a strategy but if I (a) knew that I had issues, (b) knew there was no cure and (c) felt I had been threatened with a divorce I didn't want unless I found a cure, I would probably try and contain the external visibility of the issues to the person who had threatened me. I would work on them but inside myself. Further threats would do nothing positive, because they are threatening me for the crime of being who I am.

Is that what is happening here?


----------



## Thor

Annie123 said:


> It's her thought process that makes it OK for her to have angry outbursts and the change won't be permanent until she changes the way she thinks.
> 
> I don't know what to tell you regarding her refusing to keep talking about CSA... It's not good. There's no change there.


One of my counselors calls this "level 1 change". The person changes something about their behavior but it is only surface deep. There is no understanding of what was wrong with the other behavior, just that it caused them enough trouble, so they comply.

When something like CSA is involved, the person may learn to smooth things over by, for example, having sex more regularly with their spouse. But inside they are still uncomfortable with sex and don't desire it. But they will do it in order to avoid fights or avoid divorce.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

How are you holding up breathe?


----------



## breathedeep

Blossom Leigh said:


> How are you holding up breathe?


I'm doing pretty good. My wife and I have not been arguing, but it is mainly because of what someone posted above - we are keeping conversation surface level and staying away from difficult topics. If we even approach the difficult topics, things get tense and begin to deteriorate quickly. I diffuse the situation by choosing not to argue (as has been mentioned in this thread). I know this isn't healthy, but it is what it is right now. For a few weeks she was doing really great, but I can see her slowly slipping back into old habits. I anticipated this, so its really not coming as a surprise.

She isn't really open to going back to see the MC, so I have an appointment for myself. She is still going to her IC sessions, but she says the topic of those conversations are her ex husband and how he continues to make her life miserable.

One thing that is weighing heavily on me and my relationship is my health. I am 37 years old. I have always been active, athletic, and very health conscious. I have been so healthy in the past that I have NEVER had to fill a prescription at a pharmacy for myself. I didn't even know how to do it, until a few weeks ago when I was diagnosed with a health issue that is going to be with me for the rest of my life and will have serious effects on my diet, exercise, lifestyle, etc... being so health conscious and going from healthy to having a medical issue that I am going to have to manage on a daily basis had me in a funk for a few days, but I think I am beginning to adjust and accept it so I'm feeling a bit better. The problem is my wife is worried that it will affect us. When I found out, she said she was angry because I didn't seem concerned about how it would affect her life. She said, "This is going to be the thing that breaks us apart." That conversation stung pretty good. Maybe she was just getting me back for how she perceived my reaction to her recent admissions.

My son's birthday is this weekend and we are going to visit family for his birthday and Easter. My wife won't be coming, which kinda sucks since she hasn't been to any of my family events in almost a year. Everyone keeps asking why she never comes. It's getting to be a little frustrating and embarrassing.

Still, I am feeling pretty good. I appreciate you asking.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

breathedeep said:


> I'm doing pretty good. My wife and I have not been arguing, but it is mainly because of what someone posted above - we are keeping conversation surface level and staying away from difficult topics. If we even approach the difficult topics, things get tense and begin to deteriorate quickly. I diffuse the situation by choosing not to argue (as has been mentioned in this thread). I know this isn't healthy, but it is what it is right now. For a few weeks she was doing really great, but I can see her slowly slipping back into old habits. I anticipated this, so its really not coming as a surprise.
> 
> She isn't really open to going back to see the MC, so I have an appointment for myself. She is still going to her IC sessions, but she says the topic of those conversations are her ex husband and how he continues to make her life miserable.
> 
> One thing that is weighing heavily on me and my relationship is my health. I am 37 years old. I have always been active, athletic, and very health conscious. I have been so healthy in the past that I have NEVER had to fill a prescription at a pharmacy for myself. I didn't even know how to do it, until a few weeks ago when I was diagnosed with a health issue that is going to be with me for the rest of my life and will have serious effects on my diet, exercise, lifestyle, etc... being so health conscious and going from healthy to having a medical issue that I am going to have to manage on a daily basis had me in a funk for a few days, but I think I am beginning to adjust and accept it so I'm feeling a bit better. The problem is my wife is worried that it will affect us. When I found out, she said she was angry because I didn't seem concerned about how it would affect her life. She said, "This is going to be the thing that breaks us apart." That conversation stung pretty good. Maybe she was just getting me back for how she perceived my reaction to her recent admissions.
> 
> My son's birthday is this weekend and we are going to visit family for his birthday and Easter. My wife won't be coming, which kinda sucks since she hasn't been to any of my family events in almost a year. Everyone keeps asking why she never comes. It's getting to be a little frustrating and embarrassing.
> 
> Still, I am feeling pretty good. I appreciate you asking.


Definitely sorry for the pain over family events. Been there done that in spades with my ex. What in the world is she getting angry over a health issue for. Its like she *wants* it to end and she looks for ways to end it. I too have chronic illness issues, but my H has totally engaged my treatment and healing. You deserve the same breathe. 

I'm glad to hear she is still attending IC. Maybe MC will come later, but just keep focused on your healing and you will find you will still need a game plan. There were times I let the sleeping dogs lie too just to give myself a break. Nothing at all wrong with that. Its smart to manage your strength.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

Blossom Leigh said:


> Its like she *wants* it to end and she looks for ways to end it.


Ya' think?



breathedeep said:


> One thing that is weighing heavily on me and my relationship is my health.
> 
> ...a few weeks ago when I was diagnosed with a health issue that is going to be with me for the rest of my life and will have serious effects on my diet, exercise, lifestyle, etc...
> 
> The problem is my wife is worried that it will affect us. When I found out, she said she was angry because I didn't seem concerned about how it would affect her life. She said, "This is going to be the thing that breaks us apart."


Give me ONE example where she actually made it look like she was trying. I can give you 100 examples of where she's checked out and doesn't give a ****. The above may be thew worst.





breathedeep said:


> She isn't really open to going back to see the MC, so I have an appointment for myself.


She's not, huh? CSA?


----------



## sparrow555

Read a bit of this thread and OP's other posts. 


You lit yourself on fire to keep her warm. When she cheated on you and dumped you for her ex, not only did you take her back, you even married. Now she is playing you like a fiddle using her CSA history. At this point, you got to take responsibility on how naive and gullible you are through the whole process.


----------



## lovelyblue

breathedeep

May I ask you want made you take your wife back after she cheated and left you for her ex-h.

Secondly how did you work through her leaving you and cheating on you with that ex-h?


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Wow so she was more worried about how your health issue was going to affect HER? 

It sounds like she really doesn't want to deal with the real issue. I believe that it really is CSA and that, in a moment of ... weakness? self loathing? enlightenment? anger? ... something... she revealed the truth to you.

She hasn't gotten over her abusive ex after 6-7 years of IC? Then she needs a different counselor. I have a feeling she has gotten too close and now it's just a regular b*tch session instead of a productive counseling session. Might have never BEEN effective. I know my counselor had me tell her what I wanted to accomplish, then she gave an outline for how we were going to accomplish it and an end date. Otherwise I'd just keep going forever. I liked that my counselor was results oriented. And I'm sure if I'd needed longer, or felt I didn't need her sooner that would have been OK. 

We are all different but she is continuing to give her ex power or she's lying. She's not addressing the real issue and she seems to be willing to sacrifice her current marriage just so she doesn't have to. I'm sure it was horrifying. I'm sure there were awful parts she didn't want to deal with or remember. I'm sure there's guilt. But a good counselor will be able to work with her toward some steady improvement. This one doesn't seem to be doing that. My guess is the CSA set her up to select an abusive partner and instead of dealing with her marriage, she needs to start with where it all began.

Keep reading the book. I don't know why she doesn't want you to. I think as you delve into it more, it scare the hell out of her because it brings her closer to looking her fears in the face.


----------



## turnera

breathedeep said:


> I was diagnosed with a health issue that is going to be with me for the rest of my life and will have serious effects on my diet, exercise, lifestyle, etc... being so health conscious and going from healthy to having a medical issue that I am going to have to manage on a daily basis had me in a funk for a few days, but I think I am beginning to adjust and accept it so I'm feeling a bit better. The problem is my wife is worried that it will affect us. When I found out, she said *she was angry because I didn't seem concerned about how it would affect her life*. She said, "*This is going to be the thing that breaks us apart.*"


My God.

I think that's the saddest thing I've ever heard on a forum.

I guess you can add liar to her list now. No 'in sickness or in health' for HER.


----------



## sparrow555

There was a article that I read a few days back on how one counselor isolated a patient from her family over several years and brainwashed her into thinking that she was abused as a kid by her family. The family had no idea while the woman was shifted between several mental care institutes. the woman finally ended up committing suicide. Her counselor even tried to get her cremated without the family knowing about it and it was by chance that the family found out. 

While I am mentioning an extreme case, it does tell you that these people by their profession need not be ethical and blind trust is never good. 


I also find it funny that OP think it is a "small bomb". Did not notice it initially.


----------



## Thor

EnjoliWoman said:


> I don't know why she doesn't want you to. I think as you delve into it more, it scare the hell out of her because it brings her closer to looking her fears in the face.


My wife went absolutely apesht when I was reading a book about CSA called "Haunted Marriage". She obviously felt panicked that I was reading it. I can't explain logically what made her so angry, but she really lost it.


----------



## turnera

That's easy, really. CSA survivors live THEIR ENTIRE LIVES with one goal: prevent everyone on the planet from discovering that they are disgusting, unworthy, and to be destroyed.

You reading a book about her and learning about her is shining a light on her and creating a dilemna: face the truth or...go apesh*t to try to keep hiding it.

For a CSA, there IS no other truth, life, or reality. Unless they are committed.


----------



## Thor

turnera said:


> That's easy, really. CSA survivors live THEIR ENTIRE LIVES with one goal: prevent everyone on the planet from discovering that they are disgusting, unworthy, and to be destroyed.
> 
> You reading a book about her and learning about her is shining a light on her and creating a dilemna: face the truth or...go apesh*t to try to keep hiding it.
> 
> For a CSA, there IS no other truth, life, or reality. Unless they are committed.


I agree, and she kind of said that when she was ranting at me. But in the context of what was supposed to be going on it makes no logical sense. We were trying to fix the marriage, and she had just revealed to me her CSA. It only made sense I should try to understand what was going on.

I think she was lying to herself, too, that she was trying to work on the marriage, but in fact was still running from the CSA. When I actually was doing something to work on the marriage it forced her to face her own lies to herself.

For the record, she also went off about me reading relationship books. She took the entire thing as some form of attack on her.


----------



## ReturntoZero

Thor said:


> I agree, and she kind of said that when she was ranting at me. But in the context of what was supposed to be going on it makes no logical sense. We were trying to fix the marriage, and she had just revealed to me her CSA. It only made sense I should try to understand what was going on.
> 
> I think she was lying to herself, too, that she was trying to work on the marriage, but in fact was still running from the CSA. When I actually was doing something to work on the marriage it forced her to face her own lies to herself.
> 
> For the record, she also went off about me reading relationship books. She took the entire thing as some form of attack on her.


Does she know you are on this forum?


----------



## MachoMcCoy

ReturntoZero said:


> Does she know you are on this forum?


Do you see a bat-**** crazy ***** making bat **** crazy comments on this thread?

No, she doesn't know he posts here.


----------



## Thor

ReturntoZero said:


> Does she know you are on this forum?


Nope. This forum is the one secret I have from her.

She'd divorce me in an instant for revealing her CSA even on an anonymous internet forum where there is zero chance of anyone figuring out who either of us is.

Which reminds me there's another secret forum I visited a few years back, aftersilence, which is for the victims and secondaries of CSA. That one isn't very safe for secondaries, though.


----------



## ReturntoZero

Thor said:


> Nope. This forum is the one secret I have from her.
> 
> She'd divorce me in an instant for revealing her CSA even on an anonymous internet forum where there is zero chance of anyone figuring out who either of us is.
> 
> Which reminds me there's another secret forum I visited a few years back, aftersilence, which is for the victims and secondaries of CSA. That one isn't very safe for secondaries, though.


I was in the same boat at one time. Stand your ground.


----------



## As'laDain

Everyone seems so certain that CSA issues cannot be resolved... like they are eternally broken people. 

Is that really how we view them? Good lord I hope not. If that's the case, I would do everything in my power to hide it and avoid addressing it too!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thor

As'laDain said:


> Everyone seems so certain that CSA issues cannot be resolved... like they are eternally broken people.
> 
> Is that really how we view them? Good lord I hope not. If that's the case, I would do everything in my power to hide it and avoid addressing it too!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There is no chance of recovery until the victim decides to seek qualified professional therapy and commits to doing the hard work. Unlike many other problems, this is not a DIY project. Nor can a spouse guide, lead, push, or otherwise directly cause healing.


----------



## As'laDain

My wife had years of that "qualified professional therapy" when she was growing up. Didn't really help. CSA issues still hit her like a ton of bricks when we got married.

The only reason she ever got passed it is because I found a way to convince her that she isn't broken, I don't give a crap what crazy emotions she feels, I love her anyway. Eventually, she started to let go of the fear of being "discovered". 

Largely because I made sure I was a safe person to share that stuff with. And because I got her to talk to me. A LOT. Until bit by bit, she understood that I really don't judge her. She has told me stuff that she wouldn't even tell the therapists that she was forced to see while she was growing up. 

My niece is also a CSA survivor. My wife and I have been talking to her about her experiences, emotions, etc. She talks to us because neither of us see her as broken. She is much farther along than my wife was when we got married. My wife doesn't think she is broken anymore. My niece is starting to realize that she isn't broken either. 


The quickest way to shut down real healing is to judge the person who needs the healing. 

It's like me with PTSD from iraq. I couldn't bring myself to even face it until someone came along and told me it's just normal sh!t. We all go through it. It really sucks, but you gotta process it if you want to let it go. Gotta talk about it. Your not broken, your normal. Anyone who went through that would respond that way. Normal sh!t. 

Everyone wants to freak out about traumatic experiences, throw their hands up, and say they need professional help. A professional can't heal them either! Only they themselves can do that. The only thing a professional can do is recognize it and try to make them feel safe enough to get them to process it. 

Why on earth would ANYONE open up if they are immediately labeled "broken"? Especially if they believe it themselves!?

So yeah, I would say there is definitely a whole hell of a lot that a husband can do. 

People are never broken. They only think they are. The truth is, they experienced something traumatic, and suffered extreme negative emotions as a result, which left powerful emotional memories. And sure enough, until they process it, their brains won't let them forget, so every time they experience something that reminds them of it, they end up with those old emotions welling back up again because they never accepted them and processed it to begin with. 

Everybody experiences emotions. Normal sh!t. Normal people. Traumatize them and they will be traumatized. Convince them that they will never fully move past it and they will be traumatized for life. Convince them that they are broken, and they will believe they are broken.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## As'laDain

You know what's funny? I severed the tendons that allowed me to bend my right thumb back in 2009. My wife's response was to be pissed off at me because of how it would affect her. I wouldnt be able to change our daughters diaper, dress her, cook dinner, clean, etc. 

Earlier in the year I went down from exertional rhabdomyolysis and nearly died. Her response was to take her ring off and tell me she couldn't do it anymore. And get really disgusted and pissed off at me. While I was lying in the hospital bed. Right after the doctor told us that I had lost about 20% of my kidneys and my liver. 

She is a completely different person today. 

So yeah, I'm not all that surprised by OP's wife being more concerned with how his health issues will affect her than she is about him...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

As'laDain said:


> Everyone seems so certain that CSA issues cannot be resolved... like they are eternally broken people.
> 
> Is that really how we view them? Good lord I hope not. If that's the case, I would do everything in my power to hide it and avoid addressing it too!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, I have high hopes for CSAs - who go into therapy and TALK ABOUT THE CSA ISSUE. My therapists have been amazing and wonderful. But you HAVE TO GO TO THEM. And then you have to TELL THEM THE TRUTH.


----------



## As'laDain

turnera said:


> No, I have high hopes for CSAs - who go into therapy and TALK ABOUT THE CSA ISSUE. My therapists have been amazing and wonderful. But you HAVE TO GO TO THEM. And then you have to TELL THEM THE TRUTH.


Scary thought, ain't it? Who on earth would expose themselves like that if things were working for them as they are? 

I know I wouldn't. 

Something for OP to think about...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Which is why I push - on just about every.single.thread - to stop ENABLING the person who needs to fix themselves.


----------



## Thor

As'laDain said:


> My wife had years of that "qualified professional therapy" when she was growing up. Didn't really help. CSA issues still hit her like a ton of bricks when we got married.
> 
> The only reason she ever got passed it is because I found a way to convince her that she isn't *broken*
> .
> .
> .
> My niece is also a CSA survivor. My wife and I have been talking to her about her experiences, emotions, etc. She talks to us because neither of us see her as* broken*. She is much farther along than my wife was when we got married. My wife doesn't think she is broken anymore. My niece is starting to realize that she isn't *broken* either.
> 
> 
> The quickest way to shut down real healing is to judge the person who needs the healing.
> 
> It's like me with PTSD from iraq. I couldn't bring myself to even face it until someone came along and told me it's just normal sh!t. We all go through it. It really sucks, but you gotta process it if you want to let it go. Gotta talk about it. Your not* broken*, your normal. Anyone who went through that would respond that way. Normal sh!t.
> 
> Everyone wants to freak out about traumatic experiences, throw their hands up, and say they need professional help. A professional can't heal them either! Only they themselves can do that. The only thing a professional can do is recognize it and try to make them feel safe enough to get them to process it.
> 
> Why on earth would ANYONE open up if they are immediately labeled "*broken*"? Especially if they believe it themselves!?


I've not used the word broken. I have used the word "damaged", which is accurate.

CSA victims also don't like that word. Being labelled as "damaged goods" is kryptonite. Probably because that is their deep fear about themselves, that they really are damaged, and they don't want to show it or have it discovered.


----------



## Thor

As'laDain said:


> Largely because I made sure I was a safe person to share that stuff with.
> ..
> The quickest way to shut down real healing is to judge the person who needs the healing.
> ..
> So yeah, I would say there is definitely a whole hell of a lot that a husband can do.


I was, by definition, in my wife's mind _un_safe to talk to. Because I am male in particular, but also just because I am a human. She wouldn't talk to another person about it

I've never judged my wife. She's the one who inferred judgement when I was reading a book about CSA or reading books about marriage (the usual books recommended on TAM like 5LL).

She told me of her CSA during a talk about fixing or ending the marriage, and she pulled this out as some sort of sympathy play or explanation about why she was the way she was. And then she said she would never go to a therapist for it, and we were to never bring it up again.

I did bring it up one other time to say I supported her any way that I could. Then she said if I ever mentioned it again she would divorce me. From my discussions with therapists, counselors, other CSA survivors, and other Secondary survivors, my wife is quite common in her attitude. All I can do is stfu about it. Nope, there's nothing many husbands can do about it.

I bet your own challenges are a big part of why your wife was able to open up to you.




As'laDain said:


> People are never broken. They only think they are. The truth is, they experienced something traumatic, and suffered extreme negative emotions as a result, which left powerful emotional memories. And sure enough, until they process it, their brains won't let them forget, so every time they experience something that reminds them of it, they end up with those old emotions welling back up again because they never accepted them and processed it to begin with.
> 
> Everybody experiences emotions. Normal sh!t. Normal people. Traumatize them and they will be traumatized. Convince them that they will never fully move past it and they will be traumatized for life. Convince them that they are broken, and they will believe they are broken.


I agree with all that. But it takes a trained experienced professional to know how to guide a person through their trauma without creating more trauma, and to come out the other side healthy. For most of us, not only are we not qualified to do that, but we husbands are somewhere in our wife's mind _an abuser_. Emotionally we are tarred with that association. Until she heals, the husband can never be a safe person to her, despite him being the one person on the planet who most deeply loves her and would do anything to help her be happy and whole.

Finally, the husband needs to be clued into many aspects of how not to trigger those memories, how to spot when she is triggering, and how to deal with it.


----------



## DoneWithHurting

Thor said:


> Nope. This forum is the one secret I have from her.
> 
> She'd divorce me in an instant for revealing her CSA even on an anonymous internet forum where there is zero chance of anyone figuring out who either of us is.
> 
> Which reminds me there's another secret forum I visited a few years back, aftersilence, which is for the victims and secondaries of CSA. That one isn't very safe for secondaries, though.


This is quite safe and helpful
supportforpartners.org/
you have to register to read the forum.


----------



## Wazza

Thor said:


> I was, by definition, in my wife's mind _un_safe to talk to. Because I am male in particular, but also just because I am a human. She wouldn't talk to another person about it
> 
> I've never judged my wife. She's the one who inferred judgement when I was reading a book about CSA or reading books about marriage (the usual books recommended on TAM like 5LL).
> 
> She told me of her CSA during a talk about fixing or ending the marriage, and she pulled this out as some sort of sympathy play or explanation about why she was the way she was. And then she said she would never go to a therapist for it, and we were to never bring it up again.
> 
> I did bring it up one other time to say I supported her any way that I could. Then she said if I ever mentioned it again she would divorce me. From my discussions with therapists, counselors, other CSA survivors, and other Secondary survivors, my wife is quite common in her attitude. All I can do is stfu about it. Nope, there's nothing many husbands can do about it.
> 
> I bet your own challenges are a big part of why your wife was able to open up to you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with all that. But it takes a trained experienced professional to know how to guide a person through their trauma without creating more trauma, and to come out the other side healthy. For most of us, not only are we not qualified to do that, but we husbands are somewhere in our wife's mind _an abuser_. Emotionally we are tarred with that association. Until she heals, the husband can never be a safe person to her, despite him being the one person on the planet who most deeply loves her and would do anything to help her be happy and whole.
> 
> Finally, the husband needs to be clued into many aspects of how not to trigger those memories, how to spot when she is triggering, and how to deal with it.


I'm not going to pretend I have anywhere near the understanding of CSA that others on this thread do, but what I can do is try to line up all the bits of information that we have been given.

It seems clear that the CSA will always be part of a victim. They can put it in more perspective, they can develop coping strategies, but it will always be part of them. Professional help can provide coping strategies to try, and they might work differently in different cases. But they can't erase the effects of CSA. 

At some stage, As'LaDain's point has to come to the fore. This is who OP's wife is. This stuff happened to her. She has been hurt, and she didn't cause it, and she cannot be like it never happened. There is a point where you stop trying to change her, and accept her for who she is. If you can't do that, then walk away as carefully as possible, recognising that the act of walking away has potential to damage her further.

Isn't it that simple (I didn't say easy!!!!) on one level?


----------



## As'laDain

Yeah, I got the divorce threat too. It was a bluff.

Akinaura and I actually had a different approach to triggers than to avoid them...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

Grogmiester said:


> I think ^^^^ this is right on. I understand she's refusing to go to IC for the CSA but the fact she opened up to you is a BIG STEP in the right direction.
> 
> SHe's having problems reconciling her feelings of wanting you close and THE CSA. That means she's aware there's something wrong and that is a BIG THING too.
> 
> I think you have something to work with here. You just have to find the key to convincing her that there is a way to feel better.
> 
> She sounds mortified about talking to a C about the CSA. The mind does funny things to deal with trauma like this. Maybe the abuse is much more than you know or she's told anyone.
> 
> This is why I asked previously how this CSA was handled. How old was she. Was it once or over time. Did she tell anyone. If she did how was it handled. These are things you will have to find out to even begin to help her. Without any C she's been dealing with this all by herself. She needs to find the key to opening up to a C.
> 
> Think about a prisoner put into solitary confinement. They go stir crazy. Well she's got this trauma locked up inside her and she's trying to figure it out on her own. Prisoners need someone to unlock and open the door be for than can get out. A CSA C can help her unlock hers.


An old friend of mine finally came out as a CSA victim She went years without T for the sole reason that therapy would confirm the abuse was her fault This is quite common from what I have read

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## Mike1911

A sexless marriage is tough. I'm going through it myself, but not for the same reasons. I believe there are sex therapy counselors for this.


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## bandit.45

Now that he has been diagnosed with this lifelong condition, I can foresee her attempting to replace him with another man before year's end. 

She has shown, repeatedly through her actions, that she runs away from danger into whatever arms of comfort she can find. It will either be with her ex or a new man. 

Call me jaded but....


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## Thor

Wazza said:


> I'm not going to pretend I have anywhere near the understanding of CSA that others on this thread do, but what I can do is try to line up all the bits of information that we have been given.
> 
> It seems clear that the CSA will always be part of a victim. They can put it in more perspective, they can develop coping strategies, but it will always be part of them. Professional help can provide coping strategies to try, and they might work differently in different cases. But they can't erase the effects of CSA.
> 
> At some stage, As'LaDain's point has to come to the fore. This is who OP's wife is. This stuff happened to her. She has been hurt, and she didn't cause it, and she cannot be like it never happened. There is a point where you stop trying to change her, and accept her for who she is. If you can't do that, then walk away as carefully as possible, recognising that the act of walking away has potential to damage her further.
> 
> Isn't it that simple (I didn't say easy!!!!) on one level?


Whatever we experience in childhood shapes us, and in some ways we can never unlearn it. We can learn to identify and modify some of our dysfunctions, yet others we never will. CSA or otherwise. From that perspective CSA is the particular issue a victim has to deal with, while other people deal with other issues. 

And absolutely it was never the victim's fault it happened. Unfortunately many do feel it was somehow their fault.

Regardless, there is much healing they can do, which will erase many of the major dysfunctions in their thoughts, emotions, and behavior. That's a good goal to shoot for. They can never fully erase that it happened, but that isn't the goal. The goal is to have as happy and fulfilling a life as possible, _and not pass on the abuse to their own children or spouse indirectly_. I don't mean passing on sexual abuse, but passing on dysfunction and unahappiness.

Even the most psychologically healthy person has quirks and issues. I agree that we have to accept those things in our spouses or decide we aren't compatible. We aren't trying to make the CSA victim into a Stepford wife.

The decision to leave is one of the most difficult a Secondary can make. We are acutely aware of how it may be seen by the victim as yet another abuse by a man. They may see it as a rejection of them because of sex (or lack of), and thus they may feel it confirms their only value to men is as a sex object. CSA victims can have a strong fear of abandonment, too.

In addition, we each have the responsibility to bring the healthiest and best person we can to our marriage and family. Whatever our personal histories and challenges may be. As a secondary, I could live with some of the issues if I felt she were making a serious effort to overcome them.


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## Annie123

Doing OK, breathe?


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