# Is it ever normal if a child is cruel towards animals?



## BaileyB (Oct 6, 2019)

My bf and I have been dating for a year now. Perhaps this issue doesn't pertain to me as a 3rd party (maybe it's none of my business either) but would you be alarmed if a child behaved like his niece? Her mother just recently set up an appointment with a child psychologist for next week.

We live around 20-30 minutes away from the girl's mother. The girl doesn't smile too much except when doing bad things. I don't know too much about her other than what my bf has informed me so far. She's 8 years old and her parents have been divorced for nearly 5 years. She has gotten into a couple fights with her classmates at school last year and one just recently. These are a couple other things that happened recently starting somewhere in July or August.
- She hurled small rocks at cats and kicked one, laughing
- She threw a boy's hamster on the lake, watched it drown and laughed when the boy cried. That incident was dismissed because she claimed that she was just curious to see if it could swim.
- She has cut off all the heads of her dolls and destroyed a couple toys. She doesn't play with them anymore.
- She used a kitchen cleaver to decapitate frogs, (some of them were large ones) rinses them with water, collects them on jars and took pictures.
- She told my bf that it's fun chopping their heads and hurting things. My bf said she had a smile when telling him that.

The issue has also been addressed to the girl's father. She visits him on the weekends. The guy thinks his daughter is just being a normal kid that's acting out, being rebellious, immature and it's just a stage she'll overgrow soon. He thinks both the mother and my bf (her uncle) are overreacting. As an observant, I doubt this is common between children in general. I'm not sure what to think of this.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

No, and I’m concerned that YOU need to ask!


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

Watch the movie My Friend Dahmer.


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## BaileyB (Oct 6, 2019)

I asked because I've never dealt with this sort of behavior among kids in my environment. This was a shocking information. I recalled freaking out and stepping on snails and cockroaches but that's about it. Nothing in comparing to the level of that girl. 

My bf tried giving his niece a long lecture about how animals feel but it didn't work. She still found it funny. Thank you for the movie reference. I'll take a look at it.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

BaileyB said:


> My bf and I have been dating for a year now. Perhaps this issue doesn't pertain to me as a 3rd party (maybe it's none of my business either) but would you be alarmed if a child behaved like his niece? Her mother just recently set up an appointment with a child psychologist for next week.
> 
> We live around 20-30 minutes away from the girl's mother. The girl doesn't smile too much except when doing bad things. I don't know too much about her other than what my bf has informed me so far. She's 8 years old and her parents have been divorced for nearly 5 years. She has gotten into a couple fights with her classmates at school last year and one just recently. These are a couple other things that happened recently starting somewhere in July or August.
> - She hurled small rocks at cats and kicked one, laughing
> ...


Could be a personality disorder, but she may just need a big dose of corporal punishment, paired with learning new ways of coping/expressing her emotional pain.

It sounds like her dad is being an idiot though. Hopefully it doesn't take her trying to cut _his _head off for him to wake up and address this.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Err, no someone is traumatizing the child. This is really disfunctional and just down right evil. Sorry child molesting is first or abuse from Mom or Dad one of them maybe trying to cover up her issues.

This is SO SAD!!!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Not normal at all.

I am sure that some kids do some strange things. But this seems consistent.

It sounds like you are getting this 2nd or 3rd hand. But if it is the truth, then counseling is in order.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

BaileyB said:


> My bf tried giving his niece a long lecture about how animals feel but it didn't work. She still found it funny.


She needs a taste of her own medicine, and counseling.


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## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

This is not normal behaviour.

This is at the very least a burgeoning sociopathic behaviour, if not psychopathic!!!!!

This child needs IMMEDIATE professional intervention. 

Psychologist, psychiatrist, GP, whatever is available to start but START!

She will not get better on her own, she will just get worse. Sadly a nice warm parental talking to will do no good at all. She actually probably enjoys toying with the 'stupid' people.

This is EVIL on two legs and a threat to everyone around her.


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## rockon (May 18, 2016)

This is a common trait with serial killers.


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## hubbyintrubby (Jul 5, 2019)

She needs inpatient therapy at best. She will graduate to hurting people, not just animals when that becomes boring.


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

Don't fall asleep around this budding psychopath.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

As others said, no it's not "normal".

You said her mother is getting her into therapy? That is a good start. 

What is your relationship to this girl? 



Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

I'd like to refer you to a book. Share it with your boyfriend, the girl's uncle. He in turn should share it with the girl's parents.

Here is the Amazon link to it. I hope this is okay with forum rules: https://www.amazon.com/Without-Conscience-Disturbing-World-Psychopaths/dp/1572304510


If not, the title is "Without Conscience. The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us", author Robert D. Hare, PhD


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## sh987 (Oct 10, 2013)

Holy crap. This child sounds deeply disturbed and in need of immediate psychiatric treatment. By her age, and especially since she's done this numerous times (more than any of you probably know) she knows that it's not alright to hurt animals, and that excuses about not knowing what would happen to them are just that; excuses. She has some deep psychological problems and could also be an abused girl herself.

Either way, I would think that hitting or striking or using physical power over her would be a profound mistake, and would only cement in her the idea that might is right, and that it's better to be the powerful person in the equation. I'm not a child psychologist, but I bet you could never find one worth their salt who would suggest corporal punishment as a form of treatment in the case of childhood animal abuse.

She's a scary kid.


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## cp3o (Jun 2, 2018)

BioFury said:


> She needs a taste of her own medicine, and counseling.


Counselling - maybe - depends upon the qualification and experience of the counsellor. Just having a role such as "pastor" is not adequate.

Full-on psychiatric help (through a school referral system maybe) - yes.

A taste of her own medicine - no. 

NO- NO- NO.

This child is harming less powerful creatures/objects than itself. 

So you/her parents/the state harms a less powerful creature (her) than the harm-giver.

How is that going to stop her behaviour? 

If it were me I suspect I would simply take it as validation that might is right. 

Maybe the pain would mean that I took my actions underground until I was an adult and everyone could kid themselves that I was "fixed". 

Then I get a gun..........................


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

cp3o said:


> Counselling - maybe - depends upon the qualification and experience of the counsellor. Just having a role such as "pastor" is not adequate.
> 
> Full-on psychiatric help (through a school referral system maybe) - yes.
> 
> ...


If you've seen Game of Thrones, she's a Geoffrey. Cruel when dealing with the helpless, but a coward when put into a situation where the other party can retaliate. She needs to be taught empathy. That hurting other creatures isn't fun. How does one teach her that? By putting her in the shoes of the other party.

It's discipline 101. When you do something bad, your parents do something bad to you in return. This imprints on the psyche that when I do "A", "B" happens. I didn't like "B" very much, so I'll avoid doing "A". This is of course paired with an explanation, and instruction (counseling/psychiatric help in this case).


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

The girl's behaviors are signs of antisocial/sociopathic behavior. Does she also set fires?

Her behavior is not normal. She has no empathy, and enjoys seeing others suffer.

Like @rockon said, these early behaviors are common for serial killers, who are sociopaths.

She doesn't have to become a full-on sociopath, she's only 8, and LOTS of the right kind of counseling can help her.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Omg! No this is not normal at all and is actually very frightening. This child is dangerous and well on her way to becoming a serial killer.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Further - if you have children or pets do NOT let her anywhere near them. I wouldn't let her near mine and wouldn't give two hoots who I offended in the process.


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## cp3o (Jun 2, 2018)

BioFury said:


> If you've seen Game of Thrones, she's a Geoffrey. Cruel when dealing with the helpless, but a coward when put into a situation where the other party can retaliate. She needs to be taught empathy. That hurting other creatures isn't fun. How does one teach her that? By putting her in the shoes of the other party.
> 
> It's discipline 101. When you do something bad, your parents do something bad to you in return. This imprints on the psyche that when I do "A", "B" happens. I didn't like "B" very much, so I'll avoid doing "A". This is of course paired with an explanation, and instruction (counseling/psychiatric help in this case).


I haven't seen Game of Thrones - I understand it's fiction. Life is not fiction. 

Do you really believe that you, or anyone else, is qualified to diagnose a real person about whom one has very limited, and second hand at best, information as being similar to a fictional character?

And no - you cannot "teach empathy". You can teach fear. If someone is incapable of empathy they can learn to fake it but it is never genuine, it is never certain and they will always be likely to drop the mask and behave to their nature.

Children who grow up in abusive families are much more likely than others to become abusers. Fact. 

Children who are bullied are more likely than those who aren't to become bullies. 

People who bully a child may cow it temporarily but they may also be condemning future generations to being bullied by the bully's victim.


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## cp3o (Jun 2, 2018)

Adelais said:


> The girl's behaviors are signs of antisocial/sociopathic behavior. Does she also set fires?
> 
> Her behavior is not normal. She has no empathy, and enjoys seeing others suffer.
> 
> ...


First stage iwould normally be an accurate diagnosis - which, in terms of ASPD is generally regarded as impossible before age 25. 

If someone is a sociopath there is the possibility of treatment that can be fairly effective. Starting asap increases the possibility of success. If, however, the subject is psychopathic (the two are distinct despite some overlapping characteristics) not only is there no effective treatment, the psychopath would never submit to treatment as they know they don't need it.

Somewhat simplistic - but sociopathy is learnt behaviour, whilst psychopathy is widely accepted to be genetic in origin.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

No, not at her age.

very young children may not realize that animals can be hurt and think they are toys but by 8 they are fully aware. 

I think she needs a psychiatric evaluation. This could also be a reaction to trauma or abuse. 

I'm certainly not an expert but I think you need to contact one.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

cp3o said:


> I haven't seen Game of Thrones - I understand it's fiction. Life is not fiction.
> 
> Do you really believe that you, or anyone else, is qualified to diagnose a real person about whom one has very limited, and second hand at best, information as being similar to a fictional character?
> 
> ...


Not at all, I'm not a doctor. But I don't require a medical license to know when someone needs a good hiding.

I disagree, empathy can be taught - provided the person isn't a sociopath. They can be placed in a similar situation, and the knowledge and experience they gain will give them the perspective needed to relate to the other person. In this case, she doesn't empathize with people who are in pain. In fact, she enjoys creating pain in others. Thus, causing her pain could help her understand what the other person is going through, and why it isn't fun.

As long as a bully isn't retaliated against, they will likely continue bullying. But the moment the bully's victim punches _them_ in the face, they will likely decide bullying isn't working for them anymore. The costs are now outweighing the benefits, and they are thus forced to find different ways to express their anger and insecurities.

Same thing here. Causing others pain would now cause this girl pain, thus tipping the profitability meter in her head into the negatives. The psychiatric help would be there to then help teach and guide her into better and more productive ways of expressing her emotions.

But, her being a sociopath is entirely possible, in which case causing her pain will have little positive effect.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

> empathy can be taught - provided the person isn't a sociopath.


Dr. Phil once said that sociopaths can be very dangerous since they what to say and what not to say.

Aren't there now physical tests like what the brain looks like or hormones that can give people an idea which way one is going?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

BaileyB said:


> My bf and I have been dating for a year now. Perhaps this issue doesn't pertain to me as a 3rd party (maybe it's none of my business either) but would you be alarmed if a child behaved like his niece? Her mother just recently set up an appointment with a child psychologist for next week.
> 
> We live around 20-30 minutes away from the girl's mother. The girl doesn't smile too much except when doing bad things. I don't know too much about her other than what my bf has informed me so far. She's 8 years old and her parents have been divorced for nearly 5 years. She has gotten into a couple fights with her classmates at school last year and one just recently. These are a couple other things that happened recently starting somewhere in July or August.
> - She hurled small rocks at cats and kicked one, laughing
> ...


Not normal. I suspect she has been heavily abused but regardless of if she has been or not, she is extremely unhealthy mentally and emotionally.

I never got to her level but I did some similar things in my childhood and it was a walk down a dark path that I turned away from before I went too far.

This girl is in serious danger and those around her are as well, especially as she grows. The onset of puberty is going to be a nightmare if she doesn't get help.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

No this is far from normal and I suspect it has been going on for some time. If it is caused by abuse then I would say it must have been pretty bad abuse and surely her parents would have been aware of that at some point if it was that severe?
I know many who were abused as children and none ever did things like that. There are children who just seem to be born evil, but whatever caused it she needs to get serious and long term professional help now. She is a danger to any animal or small child right now and if its not stopped somehow she may well go on to torture and kill more animals and children and even adults later on.
I am amazed that her mum hasn't got her help long before now.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

The FBI has come out with lots of profiling techniques. Maybe that analysis is available to non forensic psychiatrists.

The Mind Hunter on Netflix is really good.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

In the UK there were some fantastical child murderers like those of Jamie Bulger; the murderer Mary Bell; Myra Hindley was 21 when she got started as an accomplice. I've also read about lesser incidents brought on by children.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

BaileyB said:


> My bf and I have been dating for a year now. Perhaps this issue doesn't pertain to me as a 3rd party (maybe it's none of my business either) but would you be alarmed if a child behaved like his niece? Her mother just recently set up an appointment with a child psychologist for next week.
> 
> We live around 20-30 minutes away from the girl's mother. The girl doesn't smile too much except when doing bad things. I don't know too much about her other than what my bf has informed me so far. She's 8 years old and her parents have been divorced for nearly 5 years. She has gotten into a couple fights with her classmates at school last year and one just recently. These are a couple other things that happened recently starting somewhere in July or August.
> - She hurled small rocks at cats and kicked one, laughing
> ...


No this isn't normal. Something physco is happening. 

It's a far cry from deer, hog, or squirrel hunting and if slow, popping a few birds now and then. That's the worst thing in most normal actions.

What was described is just wrong on so many levels.


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## sh987 (Oct 10, 2013)

BioFury said:


> If you've seen Game of Thrones, she's a Geoffrey. Cruel when dealing with the helpless, but a coward when put into a situation where the other party can retaliate. She needs to be taught empathy. That hurting other creatures isn't fun. How does one teach her that? By putting her in the shoes of the other party.
> 
> It's discipline 101. When you do something bad, your parents do something bad to you in return. This imprints on the psyche that when I do "A", "B" happens. I didn't like "B" very much, so I'll avoid doing "A". This is of course paired with an explanation, and instruction (counseling/psychiatric help in this case).


The problem is that, if she IS a psychopath or has those tendencies, is that all of the literature and studies on these people shows us that they don't learn positive lessons from negative consequences. If you hit a psychopathic child you will not alter their behaviour any further than them trying to better hide what got them hit in the first place. It wouldn't make this girl stop hurting and killing animals, though you absolutely might find her in your room at night with a knife in her hand should you be so lucky to wake up before she cuts your throat.

The fact is that the only method which has seen any kind of reduction in violence from young people such as her is the rewarding of good behaviour, rather than the punishment of bad behaviour:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/06/when-your-child-is-a-psychopath/524502/


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

BaileyB said:


> My bf and I have been dating for a year now. Perhaps this issue doesn't pertain to me as a 3rd party (maybe it's none of my business either) but would you be alarmed if a child behaved like his niece? Her mother just recently set up an appointment with a child psychologist for next week.
> 
> We live around 20-30 minutes away from the girl's mother. The girl doesn't smile too much except when doing bad things. I don't know too much about her other than what my bf has informed me so far. She's 8 years old and her parents have been divorced for nearly 5 years. She has gotten into a couple fights with her classmates at school last year and one just recently. These are a couple other things that happened recently starting somewhere in July or August.
> - She hurled small rocks at cats and kicked one, laughing
> ...


*Absolutely not! That's nothing more than placating behavior on the parents part and is far from being the norm!*


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## cp3o (Jun 2, 2018)

BioFury said:


> Not at all, I'm not a doctor. But I don't require a medical license to know when someone needs a good hiding.


The absence of such a licence does not fit you to do so either.



> I disagree, empathy can be taught - provided the person isn't a sociopath.


 You appear not to understand the terminology you are using. I suggest you research the difference between sociopath and psychopath.


> They can be placed in a similar situation, and the knowledge and experience they gain will give them the perspective needed to relate to the other person.


 Not if she is a psychopath - it is not possible.


> In this case, she doesn't empathize with people who are in pain. In fact, she enjoys creating pain in others. Thus, causing her pain could help her understand what the other person is going through, and why it isn't fun.


 You may induce fear - you will not teach a psychopath empathy - it is no more possible than teaching a fish to recite DSM5. They don't have the equipment.



> As long as a bully isn't retaliated against, they will likely continue bullying. But the moment the bully's victim punches _them_ in the face, they will likely decide bullying isn't working for them anymore.


 Or they may beat their assailant to pulp.


> The costs are now outweighing the benefits, and they are thus forced to find different ways to express their anger and insecurities.


 Which means they learn to hide and target their problems - it does not mean they become capable of empathy. And as they grow bigger, stronger and more experienced they may well find ways to express themselves which make simple physical bullying almost mild by comparison.



> Same thing here. Causing others pain would now cause this girl pain, thus tipping the profitability meter in her head into the negatives. The psychiatric help would be there to then help teach and guide her into better and more productive ways of expressing her emotions.


 Assumption after assumption - there is plenty of well-respected, scientifically robust and experimentally valid literature out there. Please read it.



> But, her being a sociopath is entirely possible, in which case causing her pain will have little positive effect.


 Sociopaths have the ability to learn, though violence is probably counter-productive. 

I suggest you watch 




And look up "Dunning-Kruger effect"


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## cp3o (Jun 2, 2018)

NextTimeAround said:


> Dr. Phil once said that sociopaths can be very dangerous since they what to say and what not to say.
> 
> Aren't there now physical tests like what the brain looks like or hormones that can give people an idea which way one is going?


Psychopaths - those so diagnosed via the Hare Psychopathy Checklist (revised) -display specific patterns of brain inactivity under fMRI scans. 

The lack of activity is usually considered to be the result of an inherited DNA variation. The only way to undo the consequences is to undo the variation. As yet we can't do so - it is estimated that it may be possible in another couple of generations.

I have good reasons for believing that behaviour leading to a clinical diagnosis of psychopathy appears to be passed from parent to child.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Some sociopaths will neither cower nor beat a person to a pulp if retaliated against. They will passive aggressively get even.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Something else to keep in mind is that children act out their feelings. They do not have the skills to express their hurt and confusion. So they act out.

It's very easy to say that this child is a sociopath/psychopath. However, she might be a very abused child who is acting out because she has no idea how to handle what she sees and/or what is happening to her. 

This is why she HAS to be taken to a psychiatrist. An adult who knows that difference between some kind of mental illness like psychopathy and a child acting out.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

cp3o said:


> The absence of such a licence does not fit you to do so either.
> 
> You appear not to understand the terminology you are using. I suggest you research the difference between sociopath and psychopath. Not if she is a psychopath - it is not possible. You may induce fear - you will not teach a psychopath empathy - it is no more possible than teaching a fish to recite DSM5. They don't have the equipment.
> 
> ...


Based on what I know, a sociopath is someone without a conscience, and displays anti-social tendencies. Which if I understood her correctly, was confirmed by the doctor in the video. The difference between a sociopath and psychopath merely being that one is physiologically different than a normal person, while the other isn't. So given that we don't know whether this behavior has a physiological basis in this girl, I think my terminology was accurate. 

Sure, it could have the effect you describe - if she's a psychopath. If however, she's just a bratty child who is lashing out in the only direction she can (those weaker than her), or if she's a sociopath, my approach could work. But regardless of whether it would have beneficial effect, she needs to be punished. Actions have consequences, and there are certain lines you don't cross unscathed. And torturing and killing defenseless animals should be one of them.

The guy sitting with the doctor must have gone to drama school, lol. It was informative though.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@BaileyB Where are you? Have you informed the authorities about her? She is dangerous if left untreated.


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## cp3o (Jun 2, 2018)

BioFury said:


> But regardless of whether it would have beneficial effect, she needs to be punished.


This is where you and I disagree.

I do not think she needs to be punished. There may be reasons why punitive action is appropriate - but, IMO, neither you nor I know that for sure.

"She needs to be punished" - why do you think this? "She *needs* to be punished" 

Even if it doesn't improve matters, and there is a risk that it could make matters far, far worse for her and those who interact with her, you still want her to suffer?

ISTM that the need may be yours and not hers.

And saying so is not to criticise you.

Let's take this a little further. I assume you know that the experimental evidence points overwhelmingly to the conclusion that "free will" is just a story we tell ourselves. It, like Game of Thrones, is fiction. Inconvenient for many judicial/penal systems and religions of course; but so clearly supported by the evidence that virtually no experimental neuroscientist doubts it. 

Neuroscience has been able to use recently developed tools (fMRI, PET etc.) to determine when and where our brain reacts to stimuli. That's how we know that psychopaths, unlike sociopaths, are unable to associate the pain of others with their own pain experiences - indeed they even don't associate their own past experiences with current threats. They don't react until they are hurt, even if they have previously been subjected to the same combination of build-up and subsequent pain. You can't make them fear punishment - the part of the brain that does so for 99% of the population doesn't, and can't, work for them. Add the fact that they know they are never going to get caught (all psychopaths are narcissists) and punishment is, at best, a toothless attack sheep. 

But......in truth.........we none of us choose how to behave at the conscious level - we think we do but the subconscious is already directing our reactions before we are consciously aware of the need to react.

Our choices are made in our subconscious and determined almost entirely by our nature (our genetic inheritance) and nurture (everything that has happened to us). We can't change nature (though our DNA does change with time) - but we can change people's nurture. That's why education, reward and, sometimes, punishment, are so important - we can't vary the road's path, but we can vary which part of the carriageway we travel on. 

So, whilst punishing someone who can't fear pain may make us feel better it may, in reality, make life worse, for us and for others.

I'm not competent to determine whether punishment is appropriate in this, or any other, instance. I do know that resorting to punishment, by default, is simplistic, irrational and potentially counter productive.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> No this isn't normal. Something physco is happening.
> 
> It's a far cry from deer, hog, or squirrel hunting and if slow, popping a few birds now and then. That's the worst thing in most normal actions.
> 
> What was described is just wrong on so many levels.


I would be pretty concerned if my child wanted to kill or main any animal. That's now how I bought them up.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I work with 8 year olds. I used to work with 12 and 13 year olds. I've never seen this level of cruelty in anyone that young. I have seen it but they were older teens. 
I grew up and live in a rural setting. Astrongly second the idea of this kid getting counseling. she's a fair bit off the charts.


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

Agree with others. Serial killers start out this way. Deeply disturbing and psychopathic. Danger!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

*Moderator Message:-*

Sorry folks, but we have been had.


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## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

Well, that's a relief.


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## Oldtimer (May 25, 2018)

You know it’s not normal. I’ve worked with a child with these tendencies, unfortunately he was a budding psychopath. Again, unfortunately the psychologists a psychiatrist couldn’t help him and he spent his childhood in institutions eventually graduating to prison for violent assaults.

Oops, posted before seeing MattMatts post.


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