# I hate to share this



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

I was married once before. Only made it 18 months. I got a call from her father one day saying "Barbara does not want to be married to you anymore." I was completely floored and did not see it coming.
Six years later I got married a second time and am still with the same person 23 years later.
The weird part is that in my first marriage I was LD and she was HD. In my current marriage I am HD and she is LD.
Why the difference?

I got married the first time young, at 23. We did not have sex before marriage, but she gave me a BJ almost daily. It then started on our honeymoon. I simply was not in to her. I cannot tell you why, it just did not click. I wanted to have sex, but not with her. She was constantly after me, but I would always reject her. I did not know why. She begged me to go down on her and I could only do it once in 18 months. I have not seen her since the day she left (believe it or not) and I now completely understand why she left. In fact, I am so thankful she did leave because I was going to stay no matter what. That would have been hell for both of us.

My second marriage is completely different. I dig my wife. She at first could take it or leave it (sex). I go down on her like I'm eating a kobe steak for the first time. I love it. I want sex more than she does, but things are getting better, which is great. We are mostly lined up at the moment.

Maybe it all boils down to chemistry. The more I had sex with my first wife, the more I disliked having sex with her. The more I have sex with my current wife, the more I want to have sex with her.

Perhaps this is all a crap shoot and you get what you roll.

Just thought I should share my past a bit.
If you have any questions, ask away.

BTW: We averaged sex about once a week.
No children with wife #1.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

UMP said:


> I was married once before. Only made it 18 months. I got a call from her father one day saying "Barbara does not want to be married to you anymore." I was completely floored and did not see it coming.
> Six years later I got married a second time and am still with the same person 23 years later.
> The weird part is that in my first marriage I was LD and she was HD. In my current marriage I am HD and she is LD.
> Why the difference?
> ...


very interesting.

she was to accessible which was a turn off to you.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Lila said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Ump,
> 
> Do you think you would have married her had you engaged in premarital sex with her?


A question I wondered myself.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

chillymorn said:


> very interesting.
> 
> she was to accessible which was a turn off to you.


I guess that is possible. I have not quite figured it out. I will tell you that I was a ball of raging hormones at 23, but I did not want to have sex with her. It actually repulsed me

She was always after me. Always wanting to have sex. It was the strangest little things that turned me off. For example, I hated all the saliva she produced when we kissed. My current wife does not produce enough saliva, I want more from her.
I hated the way my first wife fingernails looked like. I love my current wifes finger nails.

Even more strange. If you had asked me if I loved my first wife the day before she left me, I would have said "Yes, I love her."


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

UMP said:


> *Maybe it all boils down to chemistry.* The more I had sex with my first wife, the more I disliked having sex with her. The more I have sex with my current wife, the more I want to have sex with her.


:iagree:

Just look at my signature line


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Lila said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Ump,
> 
> Do you think you would have married her had you engaged in premarital sex with her?


We have to go in a little deeper. I used to be a co-pilot on a corporate jet. I quit the job because my captain was an alcoholic and nearly killed us several times. Her father offered me a job at his company. I felt pressured into it from her and her father. When she left, I had no place to live, no job and no wife. It was very traumatizing. 

If I had had sex with her, I would have probably still gotten married. She gave me BJ's and sucked me dry like a vacuum cleaner on a daily basis. Conversely, my current wife has never swallowed. 

In my stupid little mind, I figured that I should marry someone that obviously wanted me so much. I don't know. I was young and very, very stupid and naïve.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

The real question is could my Low Drive with my first wife have been reversed in time?

She resented me so much (rightly so) that we fought all the time. Perhaps if she had backed off and been patient, maybe I could have learned to dig her. One interesting observation: The last time I had sex with her was really the *ONLY* time I ever enjoyed it. We were at a resort with her parents and she wanted sex. I simply went over to her without any consideration for her needs and f$cked her in a couple minutes, got up and threw her a towel.(I don't think I said one word during the whole process) She left me a week later.

I am ashamed to say these things, but if it helps someone, it's worth it.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

UMP said:


> The real question is could my Low Drive with my first wife have been reversed in time?
> 
> She resented me so much (rightly so) that we fought all the time. Perhaps if she had backed off and been patient, maybe I could have learned to dig her. One interesting observation: The last time I had sex with her was really the *ONLY* time I ever enjoyed it. We were at a resort with her parents and she wanted sex. I simply went over to her without any consideration for her needs and f$cked her in a couple minutes, got up and threw her a towel.(I don't think I said one word during the whole process) She left me a week later.
> 
> I am ashamed to say these things, but if it helps someone, it's worth it.


This is a fascinating post, thanks for sharing!

This is exactly how I imagine my ex wife felt about me, so it's refreshing to see it coming from a man, and reinforces the fact that this type of thing happens.

I can't speak for you of course, but I don't imagine it had anything to do with her being available on a daily basis (ie. no challenge). I truly do believe that it's either there, or it's not. I know my ex wife loved me, but not in the way she should have, as a wife.

You are honestly lucky you got out when you did. 18 months is nothing. My ex lasted almost 14 years. The resentment towards me built up, as it likely would have done for you. Every little thing about me bothered her, and none of it made sense. You would have done to your wife what mine did to me, and it wasn't fair.

Ironically, one of the last times we had sex was good for both of us, which was exceedingly rare. Usually she couldn't wait to get it over with, and the whole thing lasted maybe 5 minutes, tops. This time, she wanted me to do her in our car, in the parking lot of the restaurant we were at while we were on vacation. It was hot and sweaty and she genuinely seemed to like it. Less than an hour later, at a concert, she did the same thing, but tbh, I wasn't into it. There were a lot of people in the parking lot, for one...  And I had had my socks blown off not long before that. She was pissed off big time. And I clearly remember not caring. It dawned on me after she had left me that maybe this was her last gasp at trying to make up her mind.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

alexm, 
On some level I have to agree that "it's there or it's not." However, in my current 23 year relationship I have managed to up my wifes LD. There may be other things at work here because early on my current wife did want me ( I think) and I wanted her. Along the way, I did gain 50 pounds, stopped working out and became less "romantic." Having changed those things I was able to get my wifes interest back in line with my current desires. She still has good girl hangups about certain sex acts, but I can see that at least she's open to try here and there. My current task is to make sex a good for her as possible.

The one aspect of getting back in shape and looking good, a man with a plan if you will, is that I can sense my wife sees other women looking at me. This (for my wife) is a strong motivator for her to up her game sexually. I have never cheated on my wife and hopefully never will. However, for some reason my wife responds well when she knows other women want me.

The biggest turn on for my wife and almost guaranteed sex that night regardless of when we had sex previously is going out to a party or event for a couple hours. If I'm dressed well and garner attention from men and women, being the life of the party, she'll be in my pants in a matter of hours.

You're probably right though, if her desire was never there at the beginning, it might have never shown up.

Maybe it's some chemical reaction. I could not even stand the way my first wife smelled. She was a very clean person and would have done anything with me sexually, but that meant nothing to me. Her pheromones just turned me off.

However, if you were both into each other in the beginning of the marriage, I believe it can be turned around to even exceed where you started. Last night I had the best orgasm I have ever had in my life. My wife thought something was wrong because my body kept shaking afterwards.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

I'm not sure I buy 'the chemical theory', entirely at least.

My current wife is not the prettiest or sexiest woman I've been with.
Don't get me wrong, she's plenty pretty and sexy to me, just not the most. she is by far the BEST woman I've ever been with. And the best sex. She's gained a lot of weight since we got married and doesn't get my juices flowing quite as much as before the weight gain. Nevertheless, we have great sex almost always.

So to me personally, it's more than chemistry. It's more about pleasing her, compatibility, sweetness, her unselfishness more than make up for whatever else could possibly be lacking.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

I don't see the mystery UMP. Some folks turn you on. Some folks turn you off. Your story just goes to show ya that a lot of folks writing in and complaining about a LD spouse are often way off the mark. It may be they are not LD; they just don't want to have sex with you. Its usually an ego thing to assume, and you know what assume means, because somebody is not into you, there must be something wrong with them. Back in the day, I knew several LD wives, if you know what I mean.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

ThePheonix, 
I'm just trying to figure out a way to help people have more sex with their SO. If you had told me 3 years ago I would be having the best sex of my life 23 years in, I would have thought you were crazy.
Now, if you can tell me how I can convince my wife to enjoy anal and swallow, I'm all ears. 

Really, please tell me!


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

IMHO, the only thing that can explain why the first wife was not appealing to you was because she must have come across as too easy. Maybe she didn't feel like a challenge since she was so willing to have sex? Unless she had an extremely annoying voice, was butt ugly, was unintelligent and/or had one or more personality flaws that you could not stand...it must be how easily she made herself available to you that caused you to lose attraction to her.

In the OP, you didn't state there was something tangible that bothered you, so I'm assuming it was the "lack of challenge". Some people need to play games. Others don't. I think a number of guys and ladies on TAM - whether intentionally or not - seem to enjoy playing the game. They appear to get off on living in the MMSLP world where there needs to be some kind of game needed to be played in order to get the right outcome. When it comes to relationships, I hate games. Loathe them. So does my wife. We say what we mean, mean what we say and if we have an issue with the other we communicate it. 

That's my take on it. Not every girl out there lives in the MMSLP universe. That's not to say that most women don't feel that call of biology where a husband upping his attractiveness by being more engaging and/or improving physique. But there appears to be a group of women out there who seem to enjoy playing the game of tests and the neverending struggle for power in relationships. JMHO, but the MMSLP acolytes on here seem to relish in the game.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Oh please, it so damn simple!

You thought you loved her because she blew you daily without you needing to reciprocate. She made you feel loved, because she did love you and you assumed that feeling loved meant that you also loved. But when the marriage bed presented itself and you had to exhibit your love for her...you realized it wasn't there. You loved feeling loved but you didn't love her. 

Rookie mistake or disgraceful level of selfishness?


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

UMP said:


> alexm,
> The biggest turn on for my wife and almost guaranteed sex that night regardless of when we had sex previously is going out to a party or event for a couple hours. If I'm dressed well and garner attention from men and women, being the life of the party, she'll be in my pants in a matter of hours.


Interesting.... There's a TED talk about this very phenomena. I've posted on TAM quite a few times and no so much as a "meh" from the guys. I haven't posted it since.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Plan 9 from OS,
I cannot say that I like games. (that I'm aware of) When my wife goes passive aggressive, it drives me crazy. However, there is something to be said about creating sexual tension. 

Years ago, when my current wife and I had issues with sex, she offered to give me sex daily. It was so routine and became very boring for me and her. It does seem that my current wife and I do have occasional power struggles that end in good sex. Maybe you're right. Deep inside myself may lie a guy that is intrigued with someone that's hard to "get." 

Maybe it's like buying a new car.
You save the money and dream about such and such car. You negotiate and finally get that machine. At first it's wonderful, but in time the intrigue dries up and before you know it the car sits more than it runs.
I have a car that I've owned for 31 years. When I first got it, I was so giddy, I could barely contain myself. Now I drive it maybe 100 miles in a year, maybe. It's always just siting there waiting for me, but I won't even give it the time of day


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

SurpriseMyself said:


> Interesting.... There's a TED talk about this very phenomena. I've posted on TAM quite a few times and no so much as a "meh" from the guys. I haven't posted it since.


Read the transcript of that talk. Excellent info!

To paraphrase: 
Let her see you in your element, when your eyes and passions are engaged and others are responding to your energy, knowledge, humor, or passion. That's your element, where you shine. Your brilliance shines on her as well, and she cannot help but respond with both attraction to you and gratitude she has you.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Oh please, it so damn simple!
> 
> You thought you loved her because she blew you daily without you needing to reciprocate. She made you feel loved, because she did love you and you assumed that feeling loved meant that you also loved. But when the marriage bed presented itself and you had to exhibit your love for her...you realized it wasn't there. You loved feeling loved but you didn't love her.
> 
> Rookie mistake or disgraceful level of selfishness?


I think you nailed it.

Rookie mistake or disgraceful selfishness? Probably a combination of both.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

SurpriseMyself said:


> Interesting.... There's a TED talk about this very phenomena. I've posted on TAM quite a few times and no so much as a "meh" from the guys. I haven't posted it since.


This is definitely a fact with my wife. If I go out of my way to look good in public and wow all her friends and such, I can bet the farm it will get her panties wet.....for days, even weeks.

Only problem is, I'm a hermit and hate doing it.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Read the transcript of that talk. Excellent info!
> 
> To paraphrase:
> Let her see you in your element, when your eyes and passions are engaged and others are responding to your energy, knowledge, humor, or passion. That's your element, where you shine. Your brilliance shines on her as well, and she cannot help but respond with both attraction to you and gratitude she has you.


Where?


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

OP thank you for this post. This has been thrown around, but do YOU think it was the lack of a challenge since your first wife was always ready to serve it up? 

I ask because I recently asked my LD bf if we should take sex off the table for a spell because we're both so anxiety ridden about it. For him because he wants to respond appropriately and show me he loves me, and sometimes that doesn't happen, and for myself because I don't want to approach him and either be rejected or see that he's not into it, which ensures a half a**ed performance and its just tragic all the way around. He knows I'd drop everything to have sex with him and I wonder if I'm too available.

Many thanks for this post. It's quite interesting.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Give this a whirl:

Esther Perel: The secret to desire in a long-term relationship | Talk Video | TED.com


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

marduk said:


> Give this a whirl:
> 
> Esther Perel: The secret to desire in a long-term relationship | Talk Video | TED.com


The guys did get a "meh!" :smthumbup:


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

SurpriseMyself said:


> The guys did get a "meh!" :smthumbup:


Living proof that NAWALT and NAMALT!


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

UMP said:


> This is definitely a fact with my wife. If I go out of my way to look good in public and wow all her friends and such, I can bet the farm it will get her panties wet.....for days, even weeks.
> 
> Only problem is, I'm a hermit and hate doing it.


Dude, with much love...

Pull your head out of wherever you have it stuck and realize:

a) you're turned on by your long-time wife. This is what is good in life, Conan!

b) if you want her to dig you nearly as much you gotta do the work to do that. Which means a bunch of stuff that you already know. Like take your wife out while you dress sharp and show off to your friends! There's a metric-crap-ton o' biological reasons for this, but none of them really matter. It boils down to: are you willing to turn your wife's crank, or not?

c) being a hermit sucks. I know, I come from a long line of mountain men, and it's boring. Go out, have fun, get laid. Go back to step one.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

lucy999 said:


> OP thank you for this post. This has been thrown around, but do YOU think it was the lack of a challenge since your first wife was always ready to serve it up?
> 
> I ask because I recently asked my LD bf if we should take sex off the table for a spell because we're both so anxiety ridden about it. For him because he wants to respond appropriately and show me he loves me, and sometimes that doesn't happen, and for myself because I don't want to approach him and either be rejected or see that he's not into it, which ensures a half a**ed performance and its just tragic all the way around. He knows I'd drop everything to have sex with him and I wonder if I'm too available.
> 
> Many thanks for this post. It's quite interesting.


I don't want to be negative or depress you with my answer.
However, I don't want to lie to you either. I would guess that if my first wife stopped coming after me for sex, I would have been happier because she did not attract me sexually. If she had stopped initiating it would have taken a lot of pressure off of me. As to whether or not it would have reversed my inclination toward sex with her, I don't know because she never stopped pushing for sex and left me after 18 months.

I will suggest this. If you back off of the sex initiations completely and you see that he is happy as a clam WITHOUT sex, my advice is LEAVE as fast as you can.

You do not want to live with a man like this, long term. You will both be miserable.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

intheory said:


> If Barbara was going down on you every day before you got married; you *were* having sex. Bill Clinton aside, oral sex is "having sex with that woman".
> 
> Yes, I think you like games. But maybe "game" is too strong a word. You just like having to chase and the feeling of uncertainty. Sounds like your wife needs to see that other women find you attractive, before she really feels attracted to you.
> 
> ...


I hear Barbara is happily married with two kids.

BTW: One thing I forgot to mention. Not that it makes any difference, but after our divorce I found out from an old friend that she was cheating on me with her old boyfriend while we were married. I don't blame her because I sure wasn't making her cum.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

marduk said:


> Dude, with much love...
> 
> Pull your head out of wherever you have it stuck and realize:
> 
> ...


Thank you for the advice. 
Socializing is probably one of the hardest things for me to do. I absolutely hate it. Nevertheless, because my wife loves it so much, I try my best.
Not too long ago we went to her 30 year high school reunion and I was determined to be the life of the party. I even got approached by a gay guy wanting to take a picture with me, which I proudly did :smthumbup:
My wife was hot for WEEKS after that.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

SurpriseMyself said:


> Interesting.... There's a TED talk about this very phenomena. I've posted on TAM quite a few times and no so much as a "meh" from the guys. I haven't posted it since.


Thank you for that link.
That is some great stuff. It makes sense to me. I really like the part that says "foreplay starts right after the last orgasm." That is SO true with my wife and I!


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

UMP thank you very much for your honesty!!!


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## justamale51 (Mar 20, 2015)

Strange (?) but true: what is easy to come by, is always under-valued.

My partner would chase me around for sex, beg and plead for it. I would treat that like a pain, a chore.

By our 30s, the boot was on the other foot. I wanted sex more than she did. And I still feel very deprived!


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

UMP said:


> Thank you for the advice.
> Socializing is probably one of the hardest things for me to do. I absolutely hate it. Nevertheless, because my wife loves it so much, I try my best.
> Not too long ago we went to her 30 year high school reunion and I was determined to be the life of the party. I even got approached by a gay guy wanting to take a picture with me, which I proudly did :smthumbup:
> My wife was hot for WEEKS after that.


So do it more.

There's a whole bunch of pua crap about preselection on bias that is mostly garbage, but there's something to it. My wife responds similarly.


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## BookOfJob (Jul 6, 2012)

marduk said:


> So do it more.
> 
> There's a whole bunch of pua crap about preselection on bias that is mostly garbage, but there's something to it. My wife responds similarly.


It is interesting that you call it garbage. There's gotta be some truth in the fact that these 'script kiddies' just follow a prescribed recipe that has worked for other people, and then finding that the recipe also works for them.

I am not for PUA but I think we should respect/acknowledge that there is wisdom in things that people do.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

BookOfJob said:


> It is interesting that you call it garbage. There's gotta be some truth in the fact that these 'script kiddies' just follow a prescribed recipe that has worked for other people, and then finding that the recipe also works for them.
> 
> I am not for PUA but I think we should respect/acknowledge that there is wisdom in things that people do.


In my marriage I call it the "prada" effect.

If other people like something, it's only human to assume there's something there to like, and it becomes more attractive or valuable. Like Prada stuff -- I'm sure it's made in the same sweatshops as Wal-mart stuff. But because of the label, it's worth 100x as much.

When other people think my wife is awesome, I naturally think my wife must be awesome. When another dude hits on my wife, I will mate guard her, and probably demonstrate to her that I find her attractive. All is good there.

Where it heads straight off the cliff in my opinion is when people purposefully try to create situations where other people hit on them just to make their mate guard them, find them more attractive, and to gain power and leverage in the relationship rather than just by going and being awesome.

I think this is called "dread game" and is mostly stupid. As is anything that is used to manipulate -- the secondary effects won't be well understood, and can swamp the primary effect being saught. Plus, it's just a douchy thing to do in my opinion.

So -- being awesome is awesome. Having other people naturally notice that you're awesome is awesome. Trying to get other people to find you awesome purposefully to frighten your spouse into doing what you want them to do isn't awesome.

In my opinion.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

intheory said:


> Ump,
> 
> What are the differences in the fingernails? That is really getting down to some nit-picky differences. Did your first wife have dirty, cracked or chewed-down fingernails; whereas your current wife is impeccably manicured? This is just a fascinating, quirky detail.
> 
> ...


Sorry for the late reply. Just saw it.
Regarding the fingernails. My first wife ALWAYS had well manicured "French manicure" but her nails were humped. Just turned me off. My current wife cannot get a "French manicure" because of it. She knows it reminds me of #1.

Yes, married to the bosses daughter COMPLETELY took my masculinity away. I mean COMPLETELY. It was as if you castrated me. Not only for myself, but I believe Barbara did not respect me because of it. (In fact, I now know why every father on earth tells their son never to get married unless they can independently provide for their wife. To me, it's probably one of the MOST important aspects of keeping ones masculinity!!!)

I really never "grudge f$ck" my current wife, never. Quicky, yes, but only for fun, no grudge involved.

Regarding BJ. Yes, the pleasure overcame any negative feelings I had for her.

Love for her? I guess you could call it "I loved her but was not in love with her." I got over it quickly. Only a couple months. Although when I met my current wife 2 years later, the first thing I told her was "I will never get married again." 23 years later, here I am


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

I think that you weren't that much into her. Or to say in different words - you did love her, but there were things that were bothering you, there was something that was stopping you from fully engage emotionally. Not fully compatible.

When I think about beginning of my marriage, I know there were things that were bothering me, but I kept pushing them away. It was not about sex life, it was in every day life, but I have ignored them, still in love, and convinced that we have to work on our differences and nobody is perfect. It is hard when you are young to figure out if you are just being "picky" and looking for a knight on white horse, or if it is your intuition warning you.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

UMP said:


> alexm,
> 
> However, if you were both into each other in the beginning of the marriage, I believe it can be turned around to even exceed where you started. Last night I had the best orgasm I have ever had in my life. My wife thought something was wrong because my body kept shaking afterwards.


We have similar dynamic. After twenty years, a lot of fights and resentments, weight gains and losses, and almost divorcing just few months ago, we now working on improving relationship, and sex is better than it was in years. There is still a lot to improve, but it's a start. 
AT this point I am the HD it seems, and he is not that interested in tryng new things, which I cannot understand, but even despite that it is good. I still miss the kink, but he was never into it anyway.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> We have similar dynamic. After twenty years, a lot of fights and resentments, weight gains and losses, and almost divorcing just few months ago, we now working on improving relationship, and sex is better than it was in years. There is still a lot to improve, but it's a start.
> AT this point I am the HD it seems, and he is not that interested in tryng new things, which I cannot understand, but even despite that it is good. I still miss the kink, but he was never into it anyway.


Yes, I understand the "kink" part. I cannot, for the life of me, understand why my wife is so apprehensive to try new things. I have a "barn" that is heated and airconditioned 100' from our house. It's very nice, almost living room like. I wanted to put up a sex swing. When I told my wife, it was as if I was asking to invite 3 midgets to join us for sex with a film crew.
I just DON'T get it. 
I think there is something DEEP down within her that just won't let go. If you think about it, it's quite embarrassing. However, after 23 years of marriage, watching 3 kids shoot out of her gina, you would think nothing would be embarrassing.
The key for me is to never give up. Make sex as enjoyable and fun for her as possible and keep picking away at the edges.
Maybe I'll be 70 when it happens. I don't care, I just won't give up.
I realize that sometimes I do put pressure on her, but if you make sex fun, in time, how can she refuse?

She uses the analogy of roller coasters. She says, no matter what you may say or do, "I will never get on a roller coaster." That's how "kink" is to her. Something she is afraid of for whatever reason and is convinced there is nothing that can be done to change her.

What she does not realize is that she has already changed. She used to not like it when we changed positions. Now I do it all the time. She used to hate when I would pull out and play with her gina lips with my p$nis. Now she likes it. She used to hate when I played with her a$us. Now she likes it. She's able to hold a small butt plug inside her which was completely taboo years ago. Change IS happening, she just won't admit it.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

UMP said:


> Yes, I understand the "kink" part. I cannot, for the life of me, understand why my wife is so apprehensive to try new things. I have a "barn" that is heated and airconditioned 100' from our house. It's very nice, almost living room like. I wanted to put up a sex swing. When I told my wife, it was as if I was asking to invite 3 midgets to join us for sex with a film crew.
> I just DON'T get it.
> I think there is something DEEP down within her that just won't let go. If you think about it, it's quite embarrassing. However, after 23 years of marriage, watching 3 kids shoot out of her gina, you would think nothing would be embarrassing.
> The key for me is to never give up. Make sex as enjoyable and fun for her as possible and keep picking away at the edges.
> ...


It's about trust and self-acceptance.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

marduk said:


> It's about trust and self-acceptance.


What type of things do men do that decrease trust?
What exactly do you mean when you say "self-acceptance"?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

UMP said:


> What type of things do men do that decrease trust?
> What exactly do you mean when you say "self-acceptance"?


Depends on the situation. Sometime's it's about the dude, sometime's it's about an ex, sometimes it has nothing to do with anything with the marriage at all.

In my marriage, it's tied up with her upbringing, with other women coming on to me, and with my success. I.e. the more successful I am, the more afraid my wife is that I'll just seek an upgrade: a younger, hotter model.

With self-acceptance, I've known more than a few women that can't accept their own kinks: "what will he think of me," "I don't want to be that kind of woman," "it scares me," etc.

There's plenty of stuff that turns my wife on that she struggles admitting to herself and integrating into her own personality. And that goes back to trust, too... to not push that stuff too hard. To let her find her own path through that.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Self acceptance - that she accepts who she is in sex, that enjoying certain things is ok. That must go along with the trust and close intimacy. The more vulnerable she is in sex the grester the intimacy betwee the teo of you, and we already know this is time when she goes into "b..." Stage. She needs to build that distance to avoid being too close. 

I have the same theory about my husband. Kink is about trust and vulnerability, and it goes too far for him. These are Bpd traits- he is not full BPD, but he is definitely on the spectrum. Maybe the same can be said sbout your wide.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

marduk said:


> In my marriage, it's tied up with her upbringing, with other women coming on to me, and with my success. I.e. the more successful I am, the more afraid my wife is that I'll just seek an upgrade: a younger, hotter model.


Same here. My wife always used to tell me, "if you cheat on me I will leave you." 
You would think that someone that thinks like this would try to up their game so you would not leave. I guess it does not work that way?


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> Self acceptance - that she accepts who she is in sex, that enjoying certain things is ok. That must go along with the trust and close intimacy. The more vulnerable she is in sex the grester the intimacy betwee the teo of you, and we already know this is time when she goes into "b..." Stage. She needs to build that distance to avoid being too close.
> 
> I have the same theory about my husband. Kink is about trust and vulnerability, and it goes too far for him. These are Bpd traits- he is not full BPD, but he is definitely on the spectrum. Maybe the same can be said sbout your wide.


My wife tells me she has "absolutely no sexual fantasies." I find this very hard to believe, but she honestly tells me so.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

UMP said:


> Same here. My wife always used to tell me, "if you cheat on me I will leave you."
> You would think that someone that thinks like this would try to up their game so you would not leave. I guess it does not work that way?


It's a game. They don't want you to leave (usually), but they will try to control things their way until you throw down the gauntlet.
They read you and know your limits. They know you won't leave until things get desperately bad and even then. Sometimes, it's a cruel and manipulative game with them.

How would I know? I was with 'one' for a number of years.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jorgegene said:


> It's a game. They don't want you to leave (usually), but they will try to control things their way until you throw down the gauntlet.
> They read you and know your limits. They know you won't leave until things get desperately bad and even then. Sometimes, it's a cruel and manipulative game with them.
> 
> How would I know? I was with 'one' for a number of years.


On the flip side to this, assuming it is not a game. If you never trust your partner and trust is needed to allow yourself to submit to sexual "fantasies" with your husband, maybe I should try to tell my wife things like, "I will never leave you", "you are all that I'll ever need."

Is it always a game? You can't assume that all women play a game. Maybe they are truly convinced that you will eventually leave.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

It is not a game per se, not on conscious level. It is just the way she is, you get too close, she will push away. you are too far, she will come running after you. not eveyrbody does that.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

yes, not everybody, only some. like wandaj says, it can be at the subconscious level. I don't understand the push/pull. I mean, I know what is is. I've read about it, but it still makes no sense to me.

you know your wife. you've got to figure out what category she is.
a subconscious push/puller, or an outright game player.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> It is not a game per se, not on conscious level. It is just the way she is, you get too close, she will push away. you are too far, she will come running after you. not eveyrbody does that.


OK. 
Then how does the partner doing the push\pull ever develop enough trust to allow themselves to share their sexual fantasies with the other?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

UMP said:


> Same here. My wife always used to tell me, "if you cheat on me I will leave you."
> You would think that someone that thinks like this would try to up their game so you would not leave. I guess it does not work that way?


Nope.

Let go of this.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

UMP said:


> My wife tells me she has "absolutely no sexual fantasies." I find this very hard to believe, but she honestly tells me so.


Either she's not consciously aware of them, is actively repressing them, is more responsive to desire rather than spontaneous, has a lower drive, can't admit them to herself, or can't admit them to you.

Or some combination therof.

My advice is don't worry about it. Set the context where she knows she can talk to you about them without fear or judgement, invite the discussion, make sure you keep her desire for you up, and give her space about the whole thing.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

marduk said:


> Nope.
> 
> Let go of this.


OK. Then should I say stuff as in post #49 ?


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

marduk said:


> Either she's not consciously aware of them, is actively repressing them, is more responsive to desire rather than spontaneous, has a lower drive, can't admit them to herself, or can't admit them to you.
> 
> Or some combination therof.
> 
> My advice is don't worry about it. Set the context where she knows she can talk to you about them without fear or judgement, invite the discussion, make sure you keep her desire for you up, and give her space about the whole thing.


Definitely responsive desire! Maybe right after sex we can "talk" about it. As you say, while giving her space.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

UMP said:


> OK.
> Then how does the partner doing the push\pull ever develop enough trust to allow themselves to share their sexual fantasies with the other?


they may never. It is too scary for them. That's at least what I am realizing now, that this may never happen in my case.

there were those few times when we did something different, more kinky. It was great and I still remember them now, years laters. Guess what? We have never repeated it. So that's my theory - the closeness that they created was too much.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> they may never. It is too scary for them. That's at least what I am realizing now, that this may never happen in my case.
> 
> there were those few times when we did something different, more kinky. It was great and I still remember them now, years laters. Guess what? We have never repeated it. So that's my theory - the closeness that they created was too much.


That just plain sucks! How about a bottle of wine or something?


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

UMP said:


> That just plain sucks! How about a bottle of wine or something?


count me in!


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

UMP said:


> OK. Then should I say stuff as in post #49 ?


Say what makes sense to you, but let go of needing her to think the way you do.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

UMP said:


> Definitely responsive desire! Maybe right after sex we can "talk" about it. As you say, while giving her space.


Maybe.

My wife doesn't respond to that at all.

She does respond to context, tho.

Have you ever gone out to a bar, or vegas, or someplace where girls cut loose? And seen the tranformation from "good" girls to "girls gone wild?"

Be that context for your wife. Whatever that is for her.


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