# Inexperienced men are........



## ntamph

what to you as a woman?

Losers? Prudes? Have high moral character? Are the "good men" that you should look for?

Most women here are not teenagers. How would you react if you found out a man you were seeing was sexually inexperienced? Would he not be worth the time to teach?

I've been told that men need to accept experienced women because if they don't they are insecure/jealous. "The past doesn't matter." 

But does the "past" (or lack of one) of an inexperienced/shy man make him unattractive?


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## samyeagar

Read the two threads regarding orgasms and how important they are to their partners. The men and women are starkly different in attitude. It would not shock me in the least if women are less patient and tolerant of this than men.


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## julianne

How old are the men? 20,30,40+? The answer would be different for different ages but the older the guy is, the more strange it would be. Are you talking virgin or very little experience?


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## Deejo

ntamph said:


> what to you as a woman?
> 
> Losers? Prudes? Have high moral character? Are the "good men" that you should look for?
> 
> Most women here are not teenagers. How would you react if you found out a man you were seeing was sexually inexperienced? Would he not be worth the time to teach?
> 
> I've been told that men need to accept experienced women because if they don't they are insecure/jealous. "The past doesn't matter."
> 
> But does the "past" (or lack of one) of an inexperienced/shy man make him unattractive?



I'll let the ladies answer, but I'm channeling my inner X chromosome for a moment.

How experienced you are doesn't mean squat. The experience she has with you, is what makes the difference.

You may have a reputation as a stallion in bed, but if you don't do it for your partner, and aren't showing a whole lot of incentive to learn how to get it done, it isn't going to matter.


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## nuclearnightmare

I think the OP is posing a very interesting question. Turning the tables just a bit. Will be interested in responses, especially from female posters. 

My opinion, in terms of what people are comfortable with, is that the experienced are comfortable matching up, the I experienced are comfortable matching up. It's the experienced_inexperienced match that is problematic, not equally problematic depending on which gender partner has the experience though.


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## MicroStorm

Speaking from personal experience, there is no truth to the assumption that a woman who has more experience is necessarily better in bed. I was with a handful of women, but for a variety of reasons I had a very, very long dry spell before I met the wife. I was a bit worried as you, but you re-learn quickly and it was never really an issue. She knows nothing about me, and I have chosen to keep it that way, only putting out bits of info (and disinfo) over the years.

My wife pretty much f'd everything that moved from the stories I've heard, and she's hands-down (HANDS-DOWN) the worst lover I ever had. She's gotten a bit better over the years, but still is pretty bad, and I've just come to terms with it. As D mentioned, if you're willing to please the other person, then it really shouldn't matter much. Also, take comfort in the fact that most single women in their 30s have their clocks pretty loud and will gladly take Mr. Nice Guy (that means you!) for a bit of stability and comfort. My suggestion is to not make this an issue. There's no reason to share anything like this, and if you do choose to share, keep your past so ambiguous that she'll never be able to sift fact from fiction.


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## RandomDude

Interesting, the ladies are shy in this thread heh


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## Cosmos

RandomDude said:


> Interesting, the ladies are shy in this thread heh


Because those of us who are wise know that this is a trick question... Whatever we say can and will be used against us to start (yet another) gender war on TAM.

Or perhaps I'm just becoming jaded...


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## RandomDude

But gender wars are part of TAM hilarity! 

Ok fine, but how about I become the evil dude so everyone picks on me and not you ladies? So I shall confess... I DUMP VIRGINS!
Yup, I'm shallow like that 

Now your turn


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## Cosmos

Nah, RD, I'm way too intelligent to take the bait these days


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## RandomDude

Awww  

No fun lol


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

I'll take the bait, but that's because I only speak for myself. Clearly, I do not represent a majority (or even a large minority) opinion on TAM; I only represent ME.

*Inexperienced men are....

Losers?* If the reason he's inexperienced is because he's socially awkward, then the social awkwardness would make him unattractive, not the inexperience. 

*Prudes?* If he believes sex belongs in marriage ONLY, then I respect that opinion...FOR HIM! He would CLEARLY not be the man for me.

*Have high moral character?* I don't think of sexual behavior as good/bad. I think it belongs pretty high up on Maslow's' Hierarchy of Needs. I don't agree that abstaining from sexual behavior is going to get you a better/higher/more glorious place in "Heaven"! So, one of us is seriously deluded; I believe it's him!

*Are the "good men" that you should look for?* Absolutely not! There's nothing 'good' about abstaining from a human need in my opinion. Instead of making him look like a 'special pork chop' in the butcher shop window, it would make me wonder if he's past his expiration date (ie, got problems like LD, low self-worth, phobias, fear or intimacy, etc.) I'm not saying it's PROOF he does, it would just make ME WONDER if he does...wouldn't appeal to me at all. But then, man-wh0res don't appeal to me, either! I could never judge him JUST on his sexual behavior, it needs to be in context.

*Most women here are not teenagers. How would you react if you found out a man you were seeing was sexually inexperienced?* Were I in my 20s, I would not care; I'm in my 50s now...it would be a BIG deal! But then again, how do you define 'inexperienced'? If you mean limited number of partners, that wouldn't mean jack to me...you can do, learn, be a whole lot of things with the right person! If you mean hasn't had many sexual encounters ever, I would NOT be interested. Someone my age who hasn't had many sexual acts is obviously not interested (asexual, repressed, former convict, former something that doesn't interest me personally! )

*Would he not be worth the time to teach?* In our 20s - YES! In our 30s - MAYBE (if he showed interest in learning and being a giving partner). In our 40s and beyond - NO!

*I've been told that men need to accept experienced women because if they don't they are insecure/jealous.* Don't let others (men/women) define FOR YOU what YOU find acceptable. Be your own person and make your own decisions...even if they fly in the face of majority opinion. The only life worth living is the one YOU WANT! * "The past doesn't matter." But does the "past" (or lack of one) of an inexperienced/shy man make him unattractive? *Depends on the man and where I am in *my* life!

*Do! Go! Be! It's YOUR life!*


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## RandomDude

See? That wasn't so hard 

Good response by the way, I don't see how that would trigger a gender war :scratchhead:


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## working_together

It depends if he's a quick learner. Some men just haven't had a lot of experience, I'm ok with that as long as the interest is there, and they improve.

Here's where it's tricky. You meet someone, you're physically attracted to them, exactly what you're looking for. You go on a few dates, and then decide to do the deed. The guy ends up being a lousy lover. I might be turned off by this, and move on, but it really depends. I guess at 46 I would forgo that relationship because if a man is still inexperienced at my age, then he probably is not going to ever improve. However, if he's been in a long term sexually repressed marriage, then maybe I could bring out the "crazy" in him


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## RandomDude

Sorry, don't mean to threadjack but...



> However, if he's been in a long term sexually repressed marriage, then maybe I could bring out the "crazy" in him


Hmmm, quick question now that you mention it, how about a man who divorced his wife due to the opposite situation? What would you think of him? Just curious tis all


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## TiggyBlue

Inexperienced men are just that.......inexperienced,
I don't see how lack of sexual experience can determine if a guy's a good guy, loser, prude or high moral character ect.


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## ntamph

Cosmos said:


> Because those of us who are wise know that this is a trick question... Whatever we say can and will be used against us to start (yet another) gender war on TAM.
> 
> Or perhaps I'm just becoming jaded...


Nonsense.

The correct answer to my first post is "I would not judge him based on his past and least give him a chance. I'm interested in the FUTURE that I have with a new partner. Not with their past."

But, the few responses from women here indicate that a man's sexual past is absolutely fair game and a good way of getting to know him. A man's past definitely impacts his present relationships. 

Now, when the genders are reversed it's a whole different story.


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## ntamph

MicroStorm said:


> Also, take comfort in the fact that most single women in their 30s have their clocks pretty loud and will gladly take Mr. Nice Guy (that means you!) for a bit of stability and comfort.


That's not comforting. It's the worst possible thing that can happen. She needs someone to pay for a stable life and family, not someone that she is attracted to and loves.

I'm really having a hard time believing that "nice guys" can ever generate true love from a woman. I don't like the term "nice guy" but men who fit that category should just drop the facade that they can ever really attract a woman. All of their relationships (especially as they get older) are actually based on convenience (pretend you're attracted to me and I'll pretend that you would still be with me if I weren't a stable provider).


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## AnnieAsh

My husband wasn't terribly experienced when we got together. I've been with twice the number of people he has been with, which really isn't saying much since he's in the single digits. 

It didn't matter much to me. A person's number never really figured into the equation, but their eagerness and enthusiasm *certainly* did.


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## ASummersDay

I like sexually inexperienced men. They're very trainable.


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## EleGirl

ntamph said:


> That's not comforting. It's the worst possible thing that can happen. She needs someone to pay for a stable life and family, not someone that she is attracted to and loves.
> 
> I'm really having a hard time believing that "nice guys" can ever generate true love from a woman. I don't like the term "nice guy" but men who fit that category should just drop the facade that they can ever really attract a woman. All of their relationships (especially as they get older) are actually based on convenience (pretend you're attracted to me and I'll pretend that you would still be with me if I weren't a stable provider).


If a man marries a women who is over 25 and has a college degree, the chances of divorce are about 25%. So most mature, educated people do not divorce.

Most women marry nice guys who they also are attracted to. I’m not sure at all why you think that a nice guy cannot also be sexually attractive to women.

Women are now the major bread winners in about 50% of all marriages. Thus it’s not true that women as a whole are looking for convenience and a man to provide for them.


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## Ceegee

Sex is part of attraction. 

Once "the deed is done", as so eloquently stated earlier, you either like it enough to desire it again or you don't. 

The attraction increases, lessens or stays the same based on the quality. 

Experience, as it it relates to the number of encounters, no longer matters.


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## EleGirl

ntamph said:


> what to you as a woman?
> 
> Losers? Prudes? Have high moral character?


Inexperienced men are just men like any other man. I take people as they are. If I found a man interesting, attractive, etc I’d see how things worked out between us. Sexual experience is not the only thing that I consider in a man.


ntamph said:


> Are the "good men" that you should look for?


This sentence has something missing so I have no idea what you are saying. I’ll have to guess… do you men “Are you (women) looking for “good men”. 
Yes, of course I’m looking for a good man. A man who loves me; respects me; treats me well; who is hot in the sack (this can be learned so willingness is the key); a man who treats others well; has a good moral foundation; is super intelligent; and has a great sense of humor.


ntamph said:


> Most women here are not teenagers. How would you react if you found out a man you were seeing was sexually inexperienced? Would he not be worth the time to teach?


See my responses above. But I will say that if I met a guy my age who had no sexual experience I’d be concerned that he had some emotional issues. It would be something to find out about him.



ntamph said:


> I've been told that men need to accept experienced women because if they don't they are insecure/jealous. "The past doesn't matter."


Yea, this goes both ways. I do put a caveat on this… if he or she were prostitutes then it does matter. This is something that their partner should know. This is not ‘normal’ sexual experience.


ntamph said:


> But does the "past" (or lack of one) of an inexperienced/shy man make him unattractive?


No


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## SimplyAmorous

> *ntamph said*: *I'm really having a hard time believing that "nice guys" can ever generate true love from a woman.* I don't like the term "nice guy" but men who fit that category should just drop the facade that they can ever really attract a woman. All of their relationships (especially as they get older) are actually based on convenience (pretend you're attracted to me and I'll pretend that you would still be with me if I weren't a stable provider).


 Please take Note, I am an exception to this belief and I have very strong feelings on it as well.... Men don't come any nicer than my husband, I have never cheated on him, and been with him since age 15... this was 31 yrs ago.. 24 yrs married... 

As a young girl I Prayed, preferred and specifically wanted the SHY awkward *inexperienced* Guy so we could learn and stumble through all of that sweet Romantic passion together.. feeling he was my "one & only" and knowing he felt the same about me... that was MY DREAM....

No STUDS for me, I never felt those type of men were any good, or had much moral character......the more they bed, the lower their sex rank in my book.... I feel that makes them less Romantic, less sensitive and more apt to not commit, or be the "FAMILY man" type... 

I prefer the men who has trouble separating Love & sex... I go for the sensitive Gentleman Nice guy types....so long as they are not "over the top" religious, and still have a sense of Humor and LOVE physical pleasure .. yeah..those are musts.... 

I even did a thread on this ...as it is close to my  *>>* 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies...nice-guys-described-so-many-google-links.html

However .. there will always be questions when one has not slept with anyone over a certain age....like why in the world hasn't he....is he gay, too religious, has emotional issues, too busy for love...WHY [email protected]#$% - if he is such a good catch....

Our oldest son has still not bed a woman yet...(last year of college-how rare is that)...he is very good looking (but who would believe this!)....he is also very choosy..(I say too much!)... he has not found  yet, he does not believe in sleeping around..(and no he is not gay, he struggles with porn)... I suppose if he keeps going at this rate, women will wonder what the hell is wrong with him... what can you do! I think he will make an amazing catch for a good woman... but hey, I'm his MOM.. so I would say that, wouldn't I. 

His Dad's the best.....and he had a similar attitude (but less religious)...we just happened to meet in our teens, or who knows how long he would have been waiting... and remained inexperienced.


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## Coffee Amore

ntamph said:


> Nonsense.
> 
> The correct answer to my first post is "I would not judge him based on his past and least give him a chance. I'm interested in the FUTURE that I have with a new partner. Not with their past."
> 
> But, the few responses from women here indicate that a man's sexual past is absolutely fair game and a good way of getting to know him. A man's past definitely impacts his present relationships.
> 
> Now, when the genders are reversed it's a whole different story.


You do realize that with that post you've proven Cosmos point, don't you?


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## TiggyBlue

AnnieAsh said:


> It didn't matter much to me. A person's number never really figured into the equation, but their eagerness and enthusiasm *certainly* did.


:iagree:
Enthusiasm triumphs experience every time IMO.


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## SimplyAmorous

RandomDude said:


> But gender wars are part of TAM hilarity!
> 
> Ok fine, but how about I become the evil dude so everyone picks on me and not you ladies? So I shall confess... *I DUMP VIRGINS!
> Yup, I'm shallow like that *
> 
> Now your turn


There will always be a division on this depending on how one views the sexual act / what it means to them...and how well they live their beliefs...convictions in that... 6 views explained HERE..

Though even those with moral convictions have a hard time holding out as the age climbs higher and opportunity presents itself.. after all, sex is great FUN... 

We all have our preferences... I am not offended by Random Dudes comment ...his dumping the virgin real fast would be doing her a favor, it would just be good if such men did not take advantage of them 1st.... though I bet most DO.. why I feel women should be more careful - depending on what they want out of sex, what the act means to them...and to not settle for less ..especially if they want the whole package....some things in life are worth waiting for.


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## MicroStorm

ntamph said:


> That's not comforting. It's the worst possible thing that can happen. She needs someone to pay for a stable life and family, not someone that she is attracted to and loves.
> 
> I'm really having a hard time believing that "nice guys" can ever generate true love from a woman. I don't like the term "nice guy" but men who fit that category should just drop the facade that they can ever really attract a woman. All of their relationships (especially as they get older) are actually based on convenience (pretend you're attracted to me and I'll pretend that you would still be with me if I weren't a stable provider).


You're confusing monetary stability with general stability; although it is true that some women want to marry up or at least want a man who makes a good living, most of them just want someone around. After she's put a couple hundred thousand miles on the odometer with every guy you could imagine, she'll roll it back to 40,000 miles and that's where you (and guys like me, to some degree) come into play.

Why not look for women who are professional, attractive, or make a lot of money and to see how it works? You'd be surprised to see how many of these women are confident on the outside but completely weak, vulnerable, and insecure on the inside (I married one). You can mold them in your hand like Silly Putty. If you're a bit of a recluse or a man of mystery, you'd also be surprised how well this works on women in their 20s and 30s. I'm naturally this way, so it came easy for me and I enjoy the game, even after being married for 5 years.


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## MicroStorm

EleGirl said:


> Women are now the major bread winners in about 50% of all marriages. Thus it’s not true that women as a whole are looking for convenience and a man to provide for them.


Exaggerate much? Very few women (or men, for that matter) are "major bread winners", since most people deviate towards average, and the average income between men and women isn't all that different (10-20% either way). There are rare exceptions, of course--my wife and I do very, very well and she is by far the bread winner of the house, but we are not the norm. Average households are in debt, struggling to make ends meet, have no savings, no assets, a dead-end job, few investments, little retirement, etc. But why let facts get in the way of a good discussion...?


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## RandomDude

Coffee Amore said:


> You do realize that with that post you've proven Cosmos point, don't you?


:rofl:

I was just thinking that lol



> We all have our preferences... I am not offended by Random Dudes comment ...his dumping the virgin real fast would be doing her a favor, it would just be good if such men did not take advantage of them 1st.... though I bet most DO.. why I feel women should be more careful - depending on what they want out of sex, what the act means to them...and to not settle for less ..especially if they want the whole package....some things in life are worth waiting for.


Aye SA, I may be cruel and brutally honest at times but I never lead women on. Not my thing, even if I'm an a$$


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## Devotee

If a guy is over 30 and is very inexperienced then I would really have to question why. 

I would not instantly consider him a loser or prude. I actually find shyness quite attractive, so I would not find his lack of experience off-putting. I would just want to know why. 

I do agree and think that anyone's- men or women- sexual past absolutely is one small factor in getting to know who they are.


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## totallywarped

RandomDude said:


> Sorry, don't mean to threadjack but...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm, quick question now that you mention it, how about a man who divorced his wife due to the opposite situation? What would you think of him? Just curious tis all


this may sound harsh but you asked... I would think he was too "damaged" to ever be anything more then Mr. Vanilla for the rest of his life. With that in mind your future Mrs doesn't need the nasty details of your history. jmo


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## RandomDude

>.<! Point taken, I shall keep it to meself!


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## Faithful Wife

If I kissed a guy and there were fireworks, I would want to do more than kiss and I would assume there was the potential for fireworks in the bedroom, too. This would be the same answer whether inexperienced or not. Just because a man or woman is experienced or inexperienced, you don't know anything about their skills and the chemistry between you and that person.

An inexperienced person might be a natural at good sex and just hasn't had the opportunity to live it out yet. 

Also, I've had sex with some very experienced men who were really crappy lovers.


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## Natalie789

I personally wouldn't care. As long as he is willing to be adventurous and actually try. Anyone can be "taught" to be good in bed. Practice makes perfect 

I would want to know about his past relationships, but I would want to know that regardless of how many people he was with.

I've had a lot of partners myself, so I would be more concerned that he would be self-conscious because of that or would just not find that aspect of me attractive.


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## Natalie789

Faithful Wife said:


> Also, I've had sex with some very experienced men who were really crappy lovers.


Very True.

I've often found that what makes a man a good lover is how selfless he is, not necessarily the number of partners he has had. How concerned is he about me and how my experience is? Or does he just care about getting himself off?

That's what is more important.


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## Deejo

I think we should all have our own personal sexual review page, like yelp! Maybe instead call it Yowza!

Hell I'm gonna go pitch this to a VC firm.


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## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> If I kissed a guy and there were fireworks, I would want to do more than kiss and I would assume there was the potential for fireworks in the bedroom, too. This would be the same answer whether inexperienced or not. Just because a man or woman is experienced or inexperienced, you don't know anything about their skills and the chemistry between you and that person.
> 
> An inexperienced person might be a natural at good sex and just hasn't had the opportunity to live it out yet.
> 
> Also, I've had sex with some very experienced men who were really crappy lovers.


My STBW and I are an example of what you are getting at here. I have been with three women including her. She has baan with thirty some men including me.

Being good in bed, a good lover is a learning experience, and one that you need to have a partner to learn with. Our first kiss was off the charts chemistry, set the whole world on fire.

Once we actually started sleeping together, it became very apperant vey quickly that number of partners does not translate into good in bed. After talking more about things, she never really had to do much with those guys beyond just lay there. Very little beyond missionary, mainly because the guys just wanted to get off, and so she never really had to learn what to do in bed because sex was omething done TO her, not something done together.

Myself on the other hand, not to toot my own horn here, but I was able to get her off with barely a look, oral, fingers, PIV from the very beginning. She had never orgasmed PIV before me. The first time I went down on her, less than five minutes and she was writhing. I can get her off in virtually any position she is in where as before me, she had to be laying just right, legs positioned just right, hips at a certain angle.

It didn't take very long for the gap to close, and ooohhh, we are soooo good together in bed now, damn we are good. 10-15 times a week of the highest quality


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## SimplyAmorous

RandomDude said:


> Aye SA, I may be cruel and brutally honest at times but I never lead women on. Not my thing, even if I'm an a$$


I LIKE people like you, not your sexual views of course, they are in stark contrast to mine, but that just makes things easier when someone dates.. less *game Playing *going on..Something I have little use for, or so I feel.... 

As for Friendship, we've sat & hung with Swingers..not my cup of tea, but I appreciated the honesty of them talking about their lifestyle to us... and I didn't see them as Bad people.. at least not the one we met & befriended for a time. He was great [email protected]# 

One could say I was AS *brutally honest* as you in my past.. because I told every boy who liked me, when he started giving me his attention, his time, wanted me to be his girl (this was all puppy love before age 15 mind you) ....I still let my intentions be known....telling them they'd have to marry me to get in my pants.. (a little exaggeration there as they could have went that far, but not with "willy")... 

Husband was the one to hold out...so he got the prize....he passed the test. 

Not into wasting anyone's time... I was called a Di** tease a time or 2.... only cause I am friendly... but I always meant exactly what came out of my mouth...I've learned some tact over the years.... likely a blessing! 

I don't see you as cruel, I wish more people were forthcoming like that...Kudoos to you Random Dude.. I like you !


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## ScarletBegonias

ntamph said:


> what to you as a woman?
> 
> Losers? Prudes? Have high moral character? Are the "good men" that you should look for?
> 
> Most women here are not teenagers. How would you react if you found out a man you were seeing was sexually inexperienced? Would he not be worth the time to teach?
> 
> I've been told that men need to accept experienced women because if they don't they are insecure/jealous. "The past doesn't matter."
> 
> But does the "past" (or lack of one) of an inexperienced/shy man make him unattractive?


I LOVE my inexperienced man!! He's the best I've ever had and his lack of experience has never been an issue. If anything it's a serious positive bc he's more willing to learn and VERY eager to please

A woman should always be willing to take the time to show her man how to give her body pleasure. Even if he's experienced.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Phenix70

MicroStorm said:


> Exaggerate much? Very few women (or men, for that matter) are "major bread winners", since most people deviate towards average, and the average income between men and women isn't all that different (10-20% either way). There are rare exceptions, of course--my wife and I do very, very well and she is by far the bread winner of the house, but we are not the norm. Average households are in debt, struggling to make ends meet, have no savings, no assets, a dead-end job, few investments, little retirement, etc. But why let facts get in the way of a good discussion...?


Hate to burst your bubble there, but it's true.
This may not fit into what you think is true, the stats don't lie. 
Oh she may have been off by only 10%, but the fact remains, women are now the *PRIMARY* breadwinner in 40% of households.
I'm certain it will soon surpass 50%.

Moms are primary breadwinners in 40% of U.S. households


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## RandomDude

Thanks SA 

It serves me no purpose to lead women on, and I consider it saving myself time as well as theirs, since I've had poor experiences with virgins in the past; I struggle with teaching at times as it often meant dealing with their insecurities. I've always been somewhat insensitive.

It seems though that the women here are much more forgiving than I when it comes to the inexperience of men. But who knows, maybe one day I'll grow a bigger heart.


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## Phenix70

ntamph said:


> what to you as a woman?
> 
> Losers? Prudes? Have high moral character? Are the "good men" that you should look for?
> 
> Most women here are not teenagers. How would you react if you found out a man you were seeing was sexually inexperienced? Would he not be worth the time to teach?
> 
> I've been told that men need to accept experienced women because if they don't they are insecure/jealous. "The past doesn't matter."
> 
> But does the "past" (or lack of one) of an inexperienced/shy man make him unattractive?


Due to the tone of several of your threads & posts, I have to ask, have you been burned by a woman?
You seem very hostile towards women, with an agenda to try to paint all of them as evil, men-hating, gold digging hoes.


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## SimplyAmorous

RandomDude said:


> Thanks SA
> 
> It serves me no purpose to lead women on, and I consider it saving myself time as well as theirs, since I've had poor experiences with virgins in the past; *I struggle with teaching at times as it often meant dealing with their insecurities.* I've always been somewhat insensitive.


I don't particularly care for the Insecurity stereotype of all virgins though...I would not have counted myself in that group... My reasons for feeling as I do was to Not screw my life up and get dumped by a user who would move on..it happens all too often (seen plenty of friends deal with it -some had a baby in that mess)... Even If I was insecure (which I probably was in some ways -due to my home life..aren't we all?)....

But generally speaking...the insecure will give the guy what he wants to please him, cater to him to win him, I was too stubborn and bull headed for that... Of course had I not met a GOOD Guy who wanted the same things I did ... by the time I was early 20's, I would have had to lower my expectations.... I am a realist after all. 



Natalie789 said:


> I've often found that what makes a man a good lover is how selfless he is, not necessarily the number of partners he has had. How concerned is he about me and how my experience is? Or does he just care about getting himself off?


 My husband didn't stick it in till he was 25 yrs old.. and he always always always took me to the heights....no greater pleasure felt on this earth... he was so good we never talked about sex - which was rather ridiculous looking back....I remember saying to him many times in those days..... with awe ...

"How do you know JUST WHAT TO DO WITH ME"... telling him how pleased I was with his skills....it seemed all instinct....our chemistry.... something... (He just said he read some articles in PlayBoy magazine, that was the extent of his sex education.)

Very giving in bed....it was never about JUST HIM...He was holding on for me .. but of course he wanted HIS too! 

Sex for me is about Love, wanting to feel "ONE" with another person...I can not even imagine "getting off" with someone I didn't feel this way about...or questioned if they felt this way in return.....such an experience would require holding myself BACK.. which would be tormenting to me... I would hate it and not like myself for it either...regardless of the thrill of the orgasm...like a glass half full... I want the "afterglow" too!



> *ScarletBegonias said*: I LOVE my inexperienced man!! He's the best I've ever had and his lack of experience has never been an issue. If anything it's a serious positive bc he's more willing to learn and VERY eager to please
> 
> A woman should always be willing to take the time to show her man how to give her body pleasure. Even if he's experienced.


 I always love your posts ScarletB... It is wonderful to hear your unfolding story with this wonderful man..


----------



## RandomDude

SimplyAmorous said:


> I don't particularly care for the Insecurity stereotype of all virgins though...I would not have counted myself in that group... My reasons for feeling as I do was to Not screw my life up and get dumped by a user who would move on..it happens all too often (seen plenty of friends deal with it -some had a baby in that mess)... Even If I was insecure (which I probably was in some ways -due to my home life..aren't we all?)....
> 
> But generally speaking...the insecure will give the guy what he wants to please him, cater to him to win him, I was too stubborn and bull headed for that... Of course had I not met a GOOD Guy who wanted the same things I did ... by the time I was early 20's, I would have had to lower my expectations.... I am a realist after all.


Looking back I think it also had to do with how I handled them as well. Sometimes brutal honesty can be very brutal indeed especially when a woman is at her most vulnerable state. When I lost my virginity I also encountered the same brutal honesty from my first girlfriend who simply couldn't believe how clueless I was.

I didn't let her crack my nut though as at that time I figured I had to learn, even if I had to put up with her BS. I was 16 at the time, and had my pride. I wanted to improve, to prove that I could learn and do it. I expected the same from virgins I encountered in the future however, which most likely contributed to how I ended up tapping into their insecurities instead of making them feel comfortable with themselves.

I guess I had navy seal training and then expected the same from future ladies in other words.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

RandomDude said:


> Looking back I think it also had to do with how I handled them as well. Sometimes brutal honesty can be very brutal indeed especially when a woman is at her most vulnerable state. When I lost my virginity I also encountered the same brutal honesty from my first girlfriend who simply couldn't believe how clueless I was.
> 
> I didn't let her crack my nut though as at that time *I figured I had to learn*, *even if I had to put up with her BS*. I was 16 at the time, and had my pride.* I wanted to improve, to prove that I could learn and do it*. I expected the same from virgins I encountered in the future however, which most likely contributed to how I ended up tapping into their insecurities instead of making them feel comfortable with themselves.
> 
> I guess I had navy seal training and then expected the same from future ladies in other words.


Everything you have expressed here has to do with gaining experience, I guess that's what the thread is about...isn't it [email protected]#$ 

We're all virgins at one time...I wonder if what you describe here is the prevailing attitude of today...."Let's just get it on.....I need to learn after all.. so I'll put up with some "....(male or female) so off the pole of him or pounding the hole of her - *experience *will be gained/ skills learned through trial & every PE or PA error. (ejaculation & anxiety I am referring to here)... 

I can't wrap my brain around this...My aim was finding the right person... not bedroom skills.
I wanted doves flying overhead...and all that romantic stuff , something memorable, cherishable...for my 1st time...

Then .....he couldn't get it in!  ...


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> I think we should all have our own personal sexual review page, like yelp! Maybe instead call it Yowza!
> 
> Hell I'm gonna go pitch this to a VC firm.


VC firms are too difficult. Here you go:

http://www.kickstarter.com/


----------



## Caribbean Man

This thread demonstrates what political correctness does to free speech.

It kills free speech , critical thinking , and replaces it with groupthink.

I seriously think we need to get over this idea that if someone doesn't agree with our point of view or vice versa, that something must be wrong with either it or them.

Ideas tend to thrive best where there is freedom of speech and honest debate.


----------



## Phenix70

Caribbean Man said:


> This thread demonstrates what political correctness does to free speech.
> 
> It kills free speech , critical thinking , and replaces it with groupthink.
> 
> I seriously think we need to get over this idea that if someone doesn't agree with our point of view or vice versa, that something must be wrong with either it or them.
> 
> Ideas tend to thrive best where there is freedom of speech and honest debate.


I agree to a point, the point being the OP posts the same thing, with just a few changes to his central theme of "Women Are Evil."
All it takes is a simple search to see that he has a theme & likes to stick to it.
It's one thing to have an open dialogue, to learn from one another, it's entirely a different thing when said topic has been beaten to death by the same person, when most of the time, it's nothing more than a way to spew more toxicity.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Phenix70 said:


> I agree to a point, the point being the OP posts the same thing, with just a few changes to his central theme of "Women Are Evil."
> All it takes is a simple search to see that he has a theme & likes to stick to it.
> It's one thing to have an open dialogue, to learn from one another, it's entirely a different thing when said topic has been beaten to death by the same person, when most of the time, it's nothing more than a way to spew more toxicity.


Well isn't that's the real purpose of skilful debating ?
Being able to expose the logical fallacy in one's argument , not trying to be politically correct.
If an OP says that " All men are Evil " the the onus is on that person to prove and there will be rebuttals.

I'm also quite sure that Athol Kay's MMSLP has taken more hate and vitrol from some of the same posters everytime, than this present topic of
" _Inexperienced men are_." <---[ whatever that means.]

But the MMSLP debate rages on, and rightfully so.

Suppose everytime a woman started an anti Athol Kay / MMSLP thread it was shut down.
Then that would suck.

Yes?

Some threads I don't bother with because of the very reasons you stated, I find them tiring and useless.
But maybe someone else might find it fascinating because of whatever reasons.
I think, just live and let live.


----------



## Thebes

ntamph said:


> what to you as a woman?
> 
> Losers? Prudes? Have high moral character? Are the "good men" that you should look for?
> 
> Most women here are not teenagers. How would you react if you found out a man you were seeing was sexually inexperienced? Would he not be worth the time to teach?
> 
> I've been told that men need to accept experienced women because if they don't they are insecure/jealous. "The past doesn't matter."
> 
> But does the "past" (or lack of one) of an inexperienced/shy man make him unattractive?


Of course he would be worth the time to teach. Being inexperienced isn't a crime nor a turn off. I would rather have a man like that than one that's slept with half of the town.


----------



## Phenix70

Caribbean Man said:


> Well isn't that's the real purpose of skilful debating ?
> Being able to expose the logical fallacy in one's argument , not trying to be politically correct.
> If an OP says that " All men are Evil " the the onus is on that person to prove and there will be rebuttals.
> 
> I'm also quite sure that Athol Kay's MMSLP has taken more hate and vitrol from some of the same posters everytime, than this present topic of
> " _Inexperienced men are_." <---[ whatever that means.]
> 
> But the MMSLP debate rages on, and rightfully so.
> 
> Suppose everytime a woman started an anti Athol Kay / MMSLP thread it was shut down.
> Then that would suck.
> 
> Yes?
> 
> Some threads I don't bother with because of the very reasons you stated, I find them tiring and useless.
> But maybe someone else might find it fascinating because of whatever reasons.
> I think, just live and let live.


Oh yeah, those MMSLP debates do get quite lively don't they?
Though the majority of the time, those threads are started by different people, it's not the same person posting the same thing over & over again.
I'm all for a lively debate, as I'm sure you know, , my contention is the OP isn't posting these threads for an open debate.
No, if anything, his agenda is similar to your point about being PC, he's looking only for those who agree with his view, not those who think otherwise.


----------



## ntamph

Phenix70 said:


> I agree to a point, the point being the OP posts the same thing, with just a few changes to his central theme of "Women Are Evil."
> All it takes is a simple search to see that he has a theme & likes to stick to it.
> It's one thing to have an open dialogue, to learn from one another, it's entirely a different thing when said topic has been beaten to death by the same person, when most of the time, it's nothing more than a way to spew more toxicity.


Zheesh, I was just asking a question. But apparently some people are paranoid and see conspiracies everywhere.


----------



## Phenix70

ntamph said:


> Zheesh, I was just asking a question. But apparently some people are paranoid and see conspiracies everywhere.


Oh the irony is so rich with this one, it should be the definition.
Because you know, you seem to think there's a big women conspiracy in that we don't know what we want, because women only want bad boy Alpha males to drag us by our hair, to go home to have wild, crazy "50 Shades of Gray" type sex, even if we tell you that's not true. 
Oh yeah, the irony is off the charts!


----------



## ntamph

Phenix70 said:


> Oh the irony is so rich with this one, it should be the definition.


Sorry, I don't follow? Are you saying I'm paranoid?


----------



## Phenix70

ntamph said:


> Sorry, I don't follow? Are you saying I'm paranoid?


You tell me, since you seem to think all women are the same, not matter what anyone tells you.


----------



## ntamph

Phenix70 said:


> You tell me, since you seem to think all women are the same, not matter what anyone tells you.


When did I say all women are the same?


----------



## TiggyBlue

ntamph said:


> When did I say all women are the same?





> I think men lie about their numbers just as often. I know that if a woman ever asks I'll say that my number is 10 times what it actually is and give sordid "details" if she wants.
> 
> It's the only way women will take you seriously.



You may not have ever said 'all women are the same' but it does seems like you have a pretty narrow view of women.


----------



## ntamph

TiggyBlue said:


> You may not have ever said 'all women are the same' but it does seems like you have a pretty narrow view of women.


That post is a direct result of the responses that about half of the female posters gave in this thread.

Women said that they don't care if a man has a high or low number OR they said that they would have a problem with a low number man.

Lying and saying that I've ****ed everything that moves is the least risky position to take.


----------



## TiggyBlue

ntamph said:


> That post is a direct result of the responses that about half of the female posters gave in this thread.
> 
> Women said that they don't care if a man has a high or low number OR they said that they would a problem with a low number man.
> 
> Lying and saying that I've ****ed everything that moves is the least risky position to take.


So woman on the whole have said they're not really bothered and other factor matter more (like enthusiasm) and you saying you slept with everything that moves is the less risky position to take? 
Seriously that's what you took from this thread?


----------



## TiggyBlue

ntamph said:


> That post is a direct result of the responses that about half of the female posters gave in this thread.
> 
> Women said that they don't care if a man has a high or low number OR they said that they w*ould a problem with a low number man.*
> 
> Lying and saying that I've ****ed everything that moves is the least risky position to take.


There where also posts that said they liked/preferred inexperienced men, are their posts invalid or something because a couple said they preferred experienced men?


----------



## ntamph

Posts # 3, 12, 14 and 31 specifically would have a problem with an inexperienced man and the others would not care either way. Except maybe SA.


----------



## MicroStorm

ntamph said:


> Posts # 3, 12, 14 and 31 specifically would have a problem with an inexperienced man and the others would not care either way. Except maybe SA.


I question why this is even an issue. You have the right to tell women about your past or not. Most women probably won't ask, and if they do keep the answer ambiguous and divert the discussion. If you're a natural "sharer", then this approach won't work for you, but I'm one to be aloof and introverted, so most people really don't know much about me--including my wife. I always like to say that my big mouth has never gotten me in trouble by keeping it closed.

You meet a woman, you sleep with her. Usually the first few times are never that great anyway, and once you get each other's routine down, then prior sexual experience won't matter much.

For reference, how old are you, and how many women have you been with sexually? What do you do for a living, how much money do you make? What kind of women do you usually target? How do you dress, how would you rate your looks? What city/major metro do you live in, etc? If you prefer to answer in a private discussion, that is fine too... message me. I feel for you to some degree, because I was in somewhat a similar situation before I met my wife. For a variety of reasons (bad breakup, job loss, chronic year-long illness, etc), I had a long dry spell before I met my wife many years ago, so I understand your apprehensions.

On that note, have you thought about lowering your standards by going after less attractive women or women with baggage (divorcees, damaged goods, single mothers, etc) until you get a few trophies under your belt?


----------



## RandomDude

SimplyAmorous said:


> Everything you have expressed here has to do with gaining experience, I guess that's what the thread is about...isn't it [email protected]#$
> 
> We're all virgins at one time...I wonder if what you describe here is the prevailing attitude of today...."Let's just get it on.....I need to learn after all.. so I'll put up with some "....(male or female) so off the pole of him or pounding the hole of her - *experience *will be gained/ skills learned through trial & every PE or PA error. (ejaculation & anxiety I am referring to here)...
> 
> I can't wrap my brain around this...My aim was finding the right person... not bedroom skills.
> I wanted doves flying overhead...and all that romantic stuff , something memorable, cherishable...for my 1st time...
> 
> Then .....he couldn't get it in!  ...


Nope, it was just my attitude when I was young male teenager lol
And why I was such an a$$ to inexperienced women


----------



## RandomDude

ntamph said:


> That post is a direct result of the responses that about half of the female posters gave in this thread.
> 
> Women said that they don't care if a man has a high or low number OR they said that they would have a problem with a low number man.
> 
> Lying and saying that I've ****ed everything that moves is the least risky position to take.


So your solution is to be a playboy-wannabe?


----------



## ScarletBegonias

ntamph said:


> Posts # 3, 12, 14 and 31 specifically would have a problem with an inexperienced man and the others would not care either way. Except maybe SA.


Pretty sure I gushed over my inexperienced man and spoke positively about inexperienced men in general.

You seem very bitter.


----------



## survivorwife

For me it's a question of quality over quantity.

I am a woman in my 50s, therefore I would expect a man in his 50s to not be a virgin. I would suspect he had other issues if that were true, and at my age would not want to someone's "first". It's as simple as that.

However, the number of former partners isn't as important as the quality of the experience. 

When the OP uses the phrase "Inexperienced men" what exactly does that mean? The number of former partners, or the quality of the love making? If the former, it would make no difference. If the latter, it would suggest that he hasn't learned from his encounters and might not learn from any new encounters.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

ntamph said:


> what to you as a woman?
> 
> Losers? Prudes? Have high moral character? Are the "good men" that you should look for?
> 
> Most women here are not teenagers. How would you react if you found out a man you were seeing was sexually inexperienced? Would he not be worth the time to teach?
> 
> I've been told that men need to accept experienced women because if they don't they are insecure/jealous. "The past doesn't matter."
> 
> But does the "past" (or lack of one) of an inexperienced/shy man make him unattractive?


I would say it depends on the reason there hasn't been any experience. It may mean he IS a prude - if you read here long enough you will find religion can make for a lot of shame and sexual problems - but it may mean he is shy, hasn't found the right person, has high standards... all of those are GREAT reasons to not have sex.

If it's based on religious beliefs, I'm out. I'm not going to fit in and try to overcome years of teaching that certain acts are shameful, etc. 

If it's the later, I'm all for it. I think men who are less experienced try harder. They are caring, loyal, loving and focus a LOT on the partner more than themselves. And they are easily impressed. 

Men who have had tons of women may have had lots of practice on technique but since every woman is different, having sex with 50 different women doesn't mean he'll be good with ME unless he's an attentive lover. And that can be found in all ranges of experience.

ETA - I did not read any other replies before I posted.


----------



## Caribbean Man

survivorwife said:


> For me it's a question of quality over quantity.
> 
> I am a woman in my 50s, therefore I would expect a man in his 50s to not be a virgin. I would suspect he had other issues if that were true, and at my age would not want to someone's "first". It's as simple as that.
> 
> However, the number of former partners isn't as important as the quality of the experience.
> 
> *When the OP uses the phrase "Inexperienced men" what exactly does that mean? The number of former partners, or the quality of the love making? If the former, it would make no difference. If the latter, it would suggest that he hasn't learned from his encounters and might not learn from any new encounters.*


Yup,
This exact question was on my mind when I read the title, and I agree with your thoughts on it too.

How does " experienced " with other women equate to being the perfect lover in bed for another woman when intimacy ,lovemaking and sex is actually a culmination of a lot of non sexual , sometimes peripheral things, in a long term relationship.
I personally think the term " _inexperienced _" is quite subjective and relative

I find it an interesting question though.


----------



## Fozzy

Caribbean Man said:


> Yup,
> This exact question was on my mind when I read the title, and I agree with your thoughts on it too.
> 
> How does " experienced " with other women equate to being the perfect lover in bed for another woman when intimacy ,lovemaking and sex is actually a culmination of a lot of non sexual , sometimes peripheral things, in a long term relationship.
> I personally think the term " _inexperienced _" is quite subjective and relative
> 
> I find it an interesting question though.


This was my question as well. My wife and I were each others firsts. We've been having sex for about 20 years now. From the perspective of numbers of former lovers, you'd have to say I'm inexperienced. However that doesn't mean I don't have any practical experience.

Still, there's an argument to be made that exposure (wrong word perhaps?) to different partners brings with it exposure to different styles, tastes, skills, etc which would bring out a person's ability to adapt and grow as a sexual partner. 

Good case to be made from both points of view.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Fozzy said:


> This was my question as well. My wife and I were each others firsts. We've been having sex for about 20 years now. From the perspective of numbers of former lovers, you'd have to say I'm inexperienced. However that doesn't mean I don't have any practical experience.
> 
> Still, there's an argument to be made that exposure (wrong word perhaps?) to different partners brings with it exposure to different styles, tastes, skills, etc which would bring out a person's ability to adapt and grow as a sexual partner.
> 
> *Good case to be made from both points of view.*


Definitely^^^ yes.

But I was thinking like exposure to relationships and expectations in relationships.
Kinda like along the terms of emotional maturity. So a more experienced man who has been in a few relationships with women, might be better able to understand the subtle differences between the enders and act accordingly.

But then there's the downside of that. I think Enjoliwoman above hinted on it.

" _Men who have had tons of women may have had lots of practice on technique but since every woman is different, having sex with 50 different women doesn't mean he'll be good with ME unless he's an attentive lover._."

If an experienced man doesn't have the patience, there would be lots of frustration on his part and insecurity on the part of the woman in that relationship. See, the experienced man has already,
" _been there , done that_ ", lol, and he too will have unmet expectations .


----------



## Faithful Wife

ntamph, I believe you had said before, that you read somewhere that men with a low partner count are hideous and discusting to women. Care to share with us where you read that?


----------



## Deejo

Confidence + Attentiveness + Desire > Number of Partners

For all of the discussions we have about roles and gender identity, there are some fundamental truisms. Whether you have been with no women or 100 women, if you cannot confidently touch and explore your partners body, observe their reactions, and ASK for feedback, or TELL them what feels good for you; then regardless, you will always appear to be inexperienced, or dumb ... one of the two.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

What is your story Ntamph? Has something happened to you , in regards to women...something you struggle with, are you on the inexperienced side, a nice guy...having been met with much rejection... I am just guessing here of course. 

You are anonymous..feel free to release here.. as everyone else does! ..I took a quick look over your threads...but didn't see anything to your personal journey ... just many questions. 

Would like to hear MORE of your story so we can better understand YOU... and why you ask these questions...if we understood a little more , you would likely get less saying you are bitter and have an agenda, you may even get a little understanding....and some good advice too!


----------



## Hopeless318

I'm married so at the moment this really doesn't apply but I can tell you that I'd like a really nice guy. I'd actually prefer less experience as I've only ever had one lover (my husband) and I'm in my 40's. I married before I turned 20 and was a virgin. If I were in the dating game at this stage in my life I would want that guy, if he was kind, smart and funny. I have never understood the whole "sex as a need claim". Yes sex is great and we all crave it but it is something you can control. We aren't animals. Your sex life would be something so magical and so much more wonderful if you were more careful with it. IMHO


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser

Hopeless318 said:


> I have never understood the whole "sex as a need claim". Yes sex is great and we all crave it but it is something you can control. We aren't animals. Your sex life would be something so magical and so much more wonderful if you were more careful with it. IMHO


Maslow puts sexual intimacy on the same "needs" level as family and friends! People NEED sexual intimacy. Some people, such as yourself, feel it should ONLY take place within a permanent, defined relationship. That's fine....for YOU. Others, such as myself, believe it is valuable whether it is within a permanent relationship or not. We don't suggest you ought to try that if you don't agree....it wouldn't be right for you!

I'll match you on 'magical' any day of the week, Hopeless, and I wasn't married to either of the men I have in mind! 

Not everyone would find living as you do fulfilling, no more than everyone would find living as I do fulfilling, either. 

The difference in people is what makes life INTERESTING!


----------



## ntamph

Faithful Wife said:


> ntamph, I believe you had said before, that you read somewhere that men with a low partner count are hideous and discusting to women. Care to share with us where you read that?


Posts # 3, 12, 14 and 31


----------



## Faithful Wife

ntamph...you made a comment about how you had heard or read that men with a low partner number are discusting to men a long time ago. I am referring to where ever you originally got this idea, as you had indicated it was something you already had heard.


----------



## ntamph

Faithful Wife said:


> ntamph...you made a comment about how you had heard or read that men with a low partner number are discusting to men a long time ago. I am referring to where ever you originally got this idea, as you had indicated it was something you already had heard.


Oh, I see.

Well, just generally overhearing friends talking. When discussions about sex start (usually in mixed groups gender wise) women will giggle at the mention of a male virgin. I have had (male) friends dumped for being inexperienced. Not dumped, but a woman was interested and then somehow found out about their inexperience (either they heard from other women or the guy let is slip trying to be honest). It never turns out well.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Ok, gotcha. Well, you just need more life experience in general, it seems to me. But you do seem to be on a path of understanding, which is always a good thing.


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser

I (#12) did NOT say hideous nor disgusting. I said NOTHING about either of those things. What I did say was:

a) partner count means NOTHING to me; I said, "*If you mean limited number of partners, that wouldn't mean jack to me...you can do, learn, be a whole lot of things with the right person!* 

b) low number of sexual acts WOULD be unappealing to me. I said, "If you mean hasn't had many sexual encounters ever, I would NOT be interested. Someone my age (50s) who hasn't had many sexual acts is obviously not interested (asexual, repressed, former convict, former something that doesn't interest me personally!"

Never ONCE did I intimate that he would be HIDEOUS or DISGUSTING. Do NOT be SO LAZY and SELF-RIGHTEOUS that you won't go back a few measly pages to quote ACCURATELY what someone posted.

I resent your implications, especially as I was crystal clear about my POV. You're too lazy (or too self-serving) to try to get it right...you even had the post number to look for!


----------



## ntamph

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok, gotcha. Well, you just need more life experience in general, it seems to me. But you do seem to be on a path of understanding, which is always a good thing.


Part of this is coming from inside me.

I'm not horribly inexperienced, probably not even moderately inexperienced, but I hang out with guys who have really gotten the short stick.

It is unnerving to realize that many (not all) women have such high expectations and refuse to give a guy a chance. 

This has given me this very deeply ingrained belief that I have that no matter what I do, no matter how much I change myself, I will never ever be able to compete with the "alphas" - the bad kids that you talk about in your blog.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Hmm....well the post you are talking about of mine where I talked about being bad kids, I actually meant, my husband and I really were both actual BAD kids....like getting kicked out of school and having brushes with the law...sex, drugs and rock'n'roll were my steady diet during high school.

So...you don't really mean those kids, right? Nothing about being a bad kid makes anyone a good lover. In our case, it just is what it is and is a reason we can be attracted to each other BECAUSE we have the bad kids thing in common....but it didn't make us good lovers. We were both naturally good lovers and would have been, even if we had been good kids.

Part of why I made that post was to come out as a bad girl myself. You always hear the good girls want bad boys....well, I'm a bad girl at heart. That's why I want a bad boy. A good boy will not be able to love me without judging my past.

I've had bad boy lovers who SUCKED in bed by the way, bleah!

So don't put too much value in being "bad". There is nothing special about it. I would have been a good girl had I had better upbringing and anyone was watching out for me.


----------



## ntamph

Faithful Wife said:


> Hmm....well the post you are talking about of mine where I talked about being bad kids, I actually meant, my husband and I really were both actual BAD kids....like getting kicked out of school and having brushes with the law...sex, drugs and rock'n'roll were my steady diet during high school.
> 
> So...you don't really mean those kids, right? Nothing about being a bad kid makes anyone a good lover. In our case, it just is what it is and is a reason we can be attracted to each other BECAUSE we have the bad kids thing in common....but it didn't make us good lovers. We were both naturally good lovers and would have been, even if we had been good kids.
> 
> Part of why I made that post was to come out as a bad girl myself. You always hear the good girls want bad boys....well, I'm a bad girl at heart. That's why I want a bad boy. A good boy will not be able to love me without judging my past.
> 
> I've had bad boy lovers who SUCKED in bed by the way, bleah!
> 
> So don't put too much value in being "bad". There is nothing special about it. I would have been a good girl had I had better upbringing and anyone was watching out for me.


I see. 

It's just, you never hear women lusting after the average Joe. I know, I know that men don't lust after the average Jane either (they are probably worse), but these guys, alphas, bad boys, whatever people want to call them, they exist. They are not really confident but arrogant, they are usually not that intelligent, they are aggressive. They have amazing success with women while I get the leftovers. "Leftovers" is a terrible word but that's what it looks and feels like.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Dear young man...it is ok, what you are saying. But hopefully one day, you'll see it differently.

Honestly, the hub bub you are describing about alphas and bad boys...it really only affects you younger men and women.  It isn't discussed much among mature (doesn't mean old) women who have a lot going on for themselves.

And in the meantime...if there is some "plain Jane" who would like a crack at you, do you turn her down?

It is really all just different sides of the same problem. If everyone wants someone who is "hotter" than they are, then how will all the "averagely hot" people couple up?

My husband has had tremendous success with women...and he is one of those guys you are talking about...but I'm writing my blog in part to describe why he is a Sex God, not just "a dude who does well with women"....that's why I keep coming back to _*how much he loves and respects women*_.

You don't realize it probably, but what you just wrote in post #86 is disrespectful of women.

Why?

Because you want to judge women for who they choose to sleep with, just because it isn't you. 

I hope one day you'll see why that dynamic makes women turn away from you.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Faithful Wife said:


> ]That's why I want a bad boy. A good boy will not be able to love me without judging my past.


I can relate to that, 'bad boy' (I'm not talking about sexual experiences just in general) I'm able to relate to a lot easier (especially if it's because of a troubles background). There has been 'good boys' who told me I am too damaged and have bad family genes (again not because of sexual experiences).
People who are considered 'good girls/boys' aren't automatically nice people, people who are considered 'bad boys/girls' aren't always horrible users either.


----------



## Unique Username

Everything ALWAYS depends upon each individual situation right?!

For me, I'm over 40, so dating someone who was a virgin would be really unusual and rare. (Male or Female) 

I would wonder what rock they were living under that made that NOT happen 

I really, really, really don't care the NUMBER of people one has been with. I WOULD care that they were disease free and mentally stable and rather intelligent.
I WOULD care if they were divorced (and why) and if never married why?


P.S. as for genes - I'm not making more babies so breeding stock isn't a condition for selection 

As for jeans : they should look very good in them!

Sex, prefer experienced but willing to learn how to please ME (and vice versa. )


----------



## AnnieAsh

I'm so confused. Who ARE these bad boys that women supposedly go gaga over? Describe them someone please!


----------



## ntamph

TiggyBlue said:


> I can relate to that, 'bad boy' (I'm not talking about sexual experiences just in general) I'm able to relate to a lot easier (especially if it's because of a troubles background). There has been 'good boys' who told me I am too damaged and have bad family genes (again not because of sexual experiences).
> People who are considered 'good girls/boys' aren't automatically nice people, people who are considered 'bad boys/girls' aren't always horrible users either.


If a woman loved me, really loved me, jumped me at every opportunity, and did a few little things to show me she cared, I swear to you I would not care if she became a prostitute at 14 and has slept with 10,000 men.

But in real life you can't know for sure. Do you see why a woman who turned you down in HS and college contacting you after she divorced a hubby who is going to prison can make you feel like crap, a "safe option?"

And I know that "leftovers" is offensive. I sincerely apologize for that.


----------



## samyeagar

ntamph said:


> If a woman loved me, really loved me, jumped me at every opportunity, and did a few little things to show me she cared, I swear to you I would not care if she became a prostitute at 14 and has slept with 10,000 men.
> 
> But in real life you can't know for sure. Do you see why a woman who turned you down in HS and college contacting you after she divorced a hubby who is going to prison can make you feel like crap, a "safe option?"
> 
> And I know that "leftovers" is offensive. I sincerely apologize for that.


And better make sure if you marry her, that she doesn't find out when her ex is getting out, because she'll go back to him...


----------



## Faithful Wife

ntamph...One of the reasons I love my husband is because he is a safe option.

I know what you are saying, but hopefully life will show you that you have it wrong in some ways.


----------



## TiggyBlue

ntamph said:


> If a woman loved me, really loved me, jumped me at every opportunity, and did a few little things to show me she cared, I swear to you I would not care if she became a prostitute at 14 and has slept with 10,000 men.
> 
> But in real life you can't know for sure. Do you see why a woman who turned you down in HS and college contacting you after she divorced a hubby who is going to prison can make you feel like crap, a "safe option?"
> 
> And I know that "leftovers" is offensive. I sincerely apologize for that.



I don't think you seem like a guy who has a hate or dislike for women, but from your posts and the questions it seems you really fear some women is going to basically scr*w you over, or not going to genuinely like you for who you are.
Really it sounds like need to get your self confidence up to me.
If you are inexperienced and a girl turned you down because of it, really doesn't that tell you you're better off without her?


----------



## ntamph

Faithful Wife said:


> ntamph...One of the reasons I love my husband is because he is a safe option.
> 
> I know what you are saying, but hopefully life will show you that you have it wrong in some ways.


I don't have a problem with people learning from their mistakes. Realizing that some douche was a terrible mistake and then coming to me would be flattering. But, you can't know if it's an epiphany or just a way of buying time while waiting for the next bad boy to sweep her off her feet.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Don't you realize that all the behaviors that make us women swoon, can be done by any man, good or bad, experienced or inexperienced?


----------



## DesertRat1978

My best friend fits the description of the “bad boy” or “macho man” that Ntamph is speaking of. In his younger years, this rough quality greatly influenced his success with the ladies. As he has aged, it is starting to matter less. I witnessed it in action at a bar. Where 20-year-old women used to flock to him like a get rich quick scheme, the 30-year-old women want more substance than style. Conversely, I have noticed that he is starting to turn towards that mindset.


----------



## ntamph

Faithful Wife said:


> Don't you realize that all the behaviors that make us women swoon, can be done by any man, good or bad, experienced or inexperienced?


This is where I have to respectfully disagree. It's a lot easier for the alpha than anyone else.


----------



## ntamph

tyler1978 said:


> My best friend fits the description of the “bad boy” or “macho man” that Ntamph is speaking of. In his younger years, this rough quality greatly influenced his success with the ladies. As he has aged, it is starting to matter less. I witnessed it in action at a bar. Where 20-year-old women used to flock to him like a get rich quick scheme, the 30-year-old women want more substance than style. Conversely, I have noticed that he is starting to turn towards that mindset.


No kidding. He was wildly successful with women in the early years and will continue to be wildly successful with women in his later years.

Meanwhile, I know a real life 31 year old virgin.


----------



## RandomDude

It switches from the bad boy charm to $$$... *ahem* I mean 'stability'


----------



## Faithful Wife

ntamph said: "This is where I have to respectfully disagree. It's a lot easier for the alpha than anyone else."

Sorry, how many men have you slept with? I bet it is fewer than I have...and I'm telling you straight up...I have known lovers who were NOTHING that anyone would ever call alpha (one who was in a wheelchair, actually) who did everything just right to make a gal swoon her little head off.

And I have had lovers who were the eiptome of bad boy alpha who sucked in bed.

Where are you getting your info?


----------



## DesertRat1978

ntamph said:


> No kidding. He was wildly successful with women in the early years and will continue to be wildly successful with women in his later years.
> 
> Meanwhile, I know a real life 31 year old virgin.


His "success rate" has lowered over the years. His very arrogant and outwardly expressive ways worked in ways that I still fail to understand back in the day. Of course, he is always going to be more successful than I am. That is because I am the classic introvert. I have plenty of confidence but do not care if anyone else knows that. All I am saying is that the attraction to these "bad boys" changes as they age. Older women demand a bit more substance and therefore fewer are going to go home with him.

Back in our early 20's when he was getting with 10 or more women every month and I was getting absolutely nothing, I would not have thought this possible. I witnessed this dynamic at a bar this summer. He had no idea that I was there. I watched women come up to him and instead of being instantly sold, they wanted to know some things. When they found out (I presume that they found this out, anyways) that he had no car, worked a low-paying manual labor job, and was on probation they politely declined. That would not have mattered 12 or so years ago.


----------



## samyeagar

I am a typical nice guy, and I used to strongly feel much the same way ntamph does. I can personally relate to how he feels, and I still feel that there is a whole lot of validity to his feelings.

My thoughts have changed in relation to myself, though I do feel like I am the exception rather than the norm.

I am the 'inexperienced' one in my relationship. She has quite a history with a lot of bad boys. Oh she was drawn to them, and there is still an alure for her.

The thing is, all of our kids are pretty much grown, so she doesn't need a daddy for her kids, while not well off, she is financially independent so doesn't need that, but somehow, just being myself, and absolutely open and honest and true to who I really am, I have completely swept her off her feet, taken everything she has ever known, turned it on it's head, and made it way better. Seh's discovered things in me that she never knew even existed in a man, that she never knew she was missing out on, that she never knew she needed.

The end result of just being the nice guy that I am, and finding the right woman...panties dropping


----------



## ntamph

tyler1978 said:


> His "success rate" has lowered over the years. His very arrogant and outwardly expressive ways worked in ways that I still fail to understand back in the day. Of course, he is always going to be more successful than I am. That is because I am the classic introvert. I have plenty of confidence but do not care if anyone else knows that. All I am saying is that the attraction to these "bad boys" changes as they age. Older women demand a bit more substance and therefore fewer are going to go home with him.


But you said he is changing to adapt.

"Substance" I think here means (1) a decent income (2) not confident/aggressive enough to ever run around on her with other women.

Do you see the deal that average guys like you and me are being asked to accept with gratefulness?

1. I am not sexually attracted to you. I will probably make you wait to have sex with me weeks or months. This is easy to do because you don't create lust in me like bad boy ex.

2. If we get married and you lose your job it's over. You are no longer a real man who can provide for a family. Of course, she had no problem with an ex who was an "aspiring musician' being supported by her. 

3. Any honest look at the sex in marriage forum will show you that you are doomed to a life of boring sex if lucky or no sex at all after a few years. Meanwhile, don't be jealous of what she and her college boyfriend did.

4. If you two divorce, you lose the kids, house and savings and she can be free to go back to her older "wilder" flames who make her excited.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

ntamph said:


> It's just, you never hear women lusting after the average Joe. I know, I know that men don't lust after the average Jane either (they are probably worse), but these guys, alphas, bad boys, whatever people want to call them, they exist. They are not really confident but arrogant, they are usually not that intelligent, they are aggressive. They have amazing success with women while I get the leftovers. "Leftovers" is a terrible word but that's what it looks and feels like.


Nothing wrong with Average Joes... I am of the belief that the men who haven't had an easy time getting the women....are generally more devoted and loving (if they haven't become bitter & still believe in themselves & what they have to offer a good woman)... taking less for granted when they DO find Love, are likely more commitment /family focused as well... and for this... I have more of a heart for these types. 

I have never had an allure for the more Popular people, they generally are too busy for Love ...too many friends, into too many sports (I don't even like sports)....maybe too success driven (worka holics)... I always went for Book nerds...I prefer the more introverted deep thinking types ...not the bad boy partiers. 

My husband was the typical "nice guy" in school.....a guy who felt he didn't have a chance with women , after being dumped twice......he wore glasses, sucked at sports and was on the introverted side....he thought I'd shoot him down but took a chance anyway...putting himself out there...... he's the best thing that's ever happened to me... he is very humble... and "over the top" Loving & giving. If I ever lost him, I'd look for another with his same type personality/ outlook on life ...as this has always worked very very well for someone like myself.


----------



## Faithful Wife

ntamph...How in the world can you make the sweeping generalization that no women anywhere will ever be sexually attracted to a good man?

That in itself is such an insult.


----------



## RandomDude

Bah! 

Ntamph, the whole bad boy/nice guy crap in my opinion has to drop. Those are just two extremes when the reality is much different. The extremes have good and bad qualities in each; the 'bad boy' extreme tends to represent a man's ballsacs, confidence, alpha crap... the 'nice guy' extreme tends to represent sensitivity, emotional depth, integrity and all that crap.

People are a mix of each, that's just how it is, and if you think you should be a bad-boy wannabe... :slap: Two BIG reasons why not to:

1) Anyone will see through it, especially women, and some may even laugh/poke jokes at your wannabe behaviour.
2) You will not be true to yourself and even if you do succeed in fooling your date, you would have found someone who's not even compatible with you.


----------



## julianne

ntamph said:


> Posts # 3, 12, 14 and 31


Whoa...I did not say use the words hideous or disgusting, I said that it was dependent on the age of the guy. If a guy is older and a virgin, which is what I thought you were asking, it would make me wonder why he has never had sex with anyone:scratchhead: It would raise this question, but if I felt a connection with him, this alone would not prevent me from exploring a relationship -hypothical, I am married 

Maybe I interpreted your question differently from what you intended. BTW, I do know someone (friend of a friend) who is 43 and a virgin, and not for religious reasons. From what I understand, women just dont like him.


----------



## DesertRat1978

I used to have the same mindset as Ntamph. I can’t say that there is not some validity to it. I just learned that the best that I could do was to be myself. I could try to be like my best friend but the façade wears off quickly and what a waste of energy. There is nothing wrong with having confidence but not announcing it to the world. I could tell everybody that came in contact with me that I rode from Boise to Ellensburg, WA but I do not. My friend, on the other hand, is very outwardly expressive and not as hard to figure out.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

tyler1978 said:


> I used to have the same mindset as Ntamph. I can’t say that there is not some validity to it. *I just learned that the best that I could do was to be myself.* I could try to be like my best friend but the façade wears off quickly and what a waste of energy. There is nothing wrong with having confidence but not announcing it to the world. I could tell everybody that came in contact with me that I rode from Boise to Ellensburg, WA but I do not. My friend, on the other hand, is very outwardly expressive and not as hard to figure out.


Yes, people should BE themselves.... ..we all should dig deep into ourselves..face our demons but also have "self compassion" at the same time.. learn what FLOATS our boats...and seek to find a compatible mate that *compliments* your TRUE and authentic personality....

I recommend a book for you... I think many could benefit from this one >> 

The Gifts of Imperfection: Let Go of Who You Think You're Supposed to Be and Embrace Who You Are: 



> In The Gifts of Imperfection, Brené Brown, a leading expert on shame, authenticity, and belonging, shares ten guideposts on the power of Wholehearted living—a way of engaging with the world from a place of worthiness.
> 
> Each day we face a barrage of images and messages from society and the media telling us who, what, and how we should be. We are led to believe that if we could only look perfect and lead perfect lives, we'd no longer feel inadequate. So most of us perform, please, and perfect, all the while thinking, "What if I can't keep all of these balls in the air? Why isn't everyone else working harder and living up to my expectations? What will people think if I fail or give up? When can I stop proving myself?"
> 
> In her ten guideposts, Brown engages our minds, hearts, and spirits as she explores how we can cultivate the courage, compassion, and connection to wake up in the morning and think, "No matter what gets done and how much is left undone, I am enough," and to go to bed at night thinking, "Yes, I am sometimes afraid, but I am also brave. And, yes, I am imperfect and vulnerable, but that doesn't change the truth that I am worthy of love and belonging."
> 
> "This important book is about the lifelong journey from 'What will people think?' to 'I am enough.' Brown's unique ability to blend original research with honest storytelling makes reading The Gifts of Imperfection like having a long, uplifting conversation with a very wise friend who offers compassion, wisdom, and great advice."


----------



## Faithful Wife

ntamph...So why aren't you chasing some wall flower girl who wouldn't dog you down like the bad girls will?

Seems that's your answer.


----------



## ntamph

Faithful Wife said:


> ntamph...So why aren't you chasing some wall flower girl who wouldn't dog you down like the bad girls will?
> 
> Seems that's your answer.


Actually, now that you mention it, I have (looking back) noticed that I was getting obvious interest from some pretty attractive, all around good women.

But I never pounced because of fear of refection. It hurts.


----------



## Faithful Wife

And somewhere on a dating forum there is probably a cute girl posting about "what do I do about this guy who I like but who never notices me because he is obsessed with the fake boobs bad girls who date douch canoes..."


----------



## ntamph

You do have a point.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Faithful Wife said:


> And somewhere on a dating forum there is probably a cute girl posting about "what do I do about this guy who I like but who never notices me because he is obsessed with the fake boobs bad girls who date douch canoes..."


Very true, not really any difference between the two.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

ntamph said:


> Actually, now that you mention it, I have (looking back) noticed that I was getting obvious interest from some pretty attractive, all around good women.
> 
> *But I never pounced because of fear of refection. It hurts.*


You need to 1st make conversation with a girl, ask a few questions about something that she may be interested in, ya know women, WE LIKE TO TALK.. if you are received well, she shows friendliness..laughter exchanged...you will be in a better position to read some body language and see if she shows signs to being into you too... before you put yourself out on the chopping block. 

But really...


----------



## Forever Changed

Quote Tyler:

"I just learned that the best that I could do was to be myself".

LOLOLOLOLOLOL.

What do you think this is? A romantic comedy?

So naive.


----------



## Coffee Amore

Forever Changed said:


> Quote Tyler:
> 
> "I just learned that the best that I could do was to be myself".
> 
> LOLOLOLOLOLOL.
> 
> What do you think this is? A romantic comedy?
> 
> So naive.


What's so funny about that sentence? 

You seem very bitter.


----------



## Forever Changed

Yes I am bitter. But I am a realist. 

What made me laugh was 'Just be yourself'. No offence to the poster, by the way. None at all.

It's just so innocent to think this isn't it?

Anyway ... I'd best go now.


----------



## moco82

It's true--some of the women with a long and varied track record (just among common acquaintances, and that's the tip of the iceberg) were quite bad in bed from my experience. I also noticed that the hotter the woman, at least if she's young, the less likely she is to be good--after all, what's the incentive when all the men desire you anyway? [Side note: another reason to look forward to single life in mid-age--the hot ones wise up in more ways than one?]

Although I must note that the handful of true gems was indeed quite, um, experienced. So a track record doesn't mean she'll be good in bed, but if she's good in bed, it's likely she has a track record. Correlation is not causation.


----------



## Deejo

I have stated on several occasions that I believe the adage of 'just be yourself' is relatively disingenuous if being yourself means people aren't attracted you, or, that you arent able to realize the kind of social interactions that you crave.

Basically, sometimes you need to unlearn, being yourself or extend yourself in order to achieve a desired goal.

If you are a shy, overweight introvert with poor hygiene, and you want to be successful, and sexual with women, then you'd best modify your sense of self.

As for the concept of women being attracted to the average joe; we've been over that ground before as well, and the average joe generally fairs just fine. After all, most of us are ... average. If you are in fact a below average joe, who thinks he's average, you've got some work to do.


----------



## RandomDude

I think we were trying to get him away from any wannabe behaviour with the recommendation of 'being himself', rather than being someone who's not.

As for what you described Deejo;


> If you are a shy, overweight introvert with poor hygiene, and you want to be successful, and sexual with women, then you'd best modify your sense of self.


I consider that WORKING on one's self 
It's much different


----------



## Deejo

SA, I seriously think you should consider becoming a Life Coach. I'm not joking. You're inspirational, upbeat, have great empathy and compassion, a strong moral compass, and you're hot. Who's not going to buy into that?

Always like your recommendations.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Deejo said:


> SA, I seriously think you should consider becoming a Life Coach. I'm not joking. You're inspirational, upbeat, have great empathy and compassion, a strong moral compass, and you're hot. Who's not going to buy into that?
> 
> Always like your recommendations.


:iagree:
Yes SA's a natural " life coach." 


Lots of people don't really understand when they say " just be yourself " what they really mean.

Nothing has ever been , can be or will ever be achieved by just 
" being yourself." Anything worth achieving takes effort . A better advice would be , " be original ", because every single minute , we create our new reality. The person you were 10 yrs ago , or 10 months ago , or 10 weeks ago or 10 days or even 10 minutes ago is not the same person you are at this very moment.

A good question is " who am I?"

How many of us can honestly answer that question?

So I think that when people say, "just be yourself" what they're probably trying to convey is ," just be who you want be , and don't do anything stupid ."

People are not born great , or charming , or hot , or losers or anything.
Men are born ignorant , what happens after that is totally up to them reaching out of their comfort zones and striving to achieve.

If a toddler decides to " just be yourself " ,
They would NEVER take that first step and eventually learn how to walk.
Even the fastest man on earth was once a toddler.
Usain Bolt wasn't born with Olympic gold medals and millions of dollars in endorsements to his name.
He was born to poor parents living in rural Jamaica ,
And his dream was to play cricket .


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Deejo said:


> *SA*,* I seriously think you should consider becoming a Life Coach*. I'm not joking. You're inspirational, upbeat, have great empathy and compassion, a strong moral compass, and you're hot. Who's not going to buy into that?
> 
> Always like your recommendations.


Awe  Deejo.....I just had another tell me similar in a morning pm...I missed my calling, should be a Therapist, talking to the Public..Real life friends have told me >> "You should go to be a Sex therapist" to doing a Radio Program/ write a book, start a Blog. 

Truth is...I'm just too lazy to take the courses ...I'm content!....also I'd feel funny about taking $$ ... ..if it was online anyway.....plenty others here with the same insight as I....happily playing "Dear Abby" - just cause they enjoy it (I think I have an addiction...maybe I need Therapy).....

With forums LIKE THIS...Honestly, I struggle to see the need.....With endless book aids written by Therapists/ websites like Marriage Builders/ in depth articles by the click ....amazing direction at our fingertips already...what can one add to that!

But I can't deny...this sort of thing is a real passion of mine....wherever it leads... I do not yet know.. 





> *Deejo said*: I have stated on several occasions that I believe the adage of 'just be yourself' is relatively disingenuous if being yourself means people aren't attracted you, or, that you aren't able to realize the kind of social interactions that you crave.


I swear for every "People need to be themselves" post I do...along comes Deejo with a "disingenuous" follow up...though I don't think we disagree...Like Random Dude's thoughts ..I am purely meaning to be *the BEST themselves *they can be...(Me, I didn't give enough detail... how can It be!).....

I feel everyone should study their Temperaments.. and learn what makes them TICK, what brings them happiness/ fulfillment, not what they THINK others will want them to be..... so they can cultivate, and grow from where their natural gifts/passions are....we all have them, even if we haven't tapped into what they are (maybe because we have been so beat up in life )...instead of trying to BE someone else (because we are envious of another's personality/ social standing)....this doesn't fare well...it just doesn't work. 

There is nothing wrong with being a Nice person, not being a Partier, one doesn't need to be an extrovert either, or sleeping around. Things like this REALLY annoy me... far too many people go out in public wearing "masks" trying to *impress others*. trying to FIT IN... but do they? It's gotten so bad... Many of us are left trying to decipher who others REALLY ARE....only to learn down the road, they never even knew them....this too screws with many people's heads....why so little *TRUST* is alive in this world today.


----------



## heartsbeating

Deejo said:


> I have stated on several occasions that I believe the adage of 'just be yourself' is relatively disingenuous if being yourself means people aren't attracted you, or, that you arent able to realize the kind of social interactions that you crave.
> 
> Basically, sometimes you need to unlearn, being yourself or extend yourself in order to achieve a desired goal.


It can be confronting to face yourself. There's a script developed for self and challenging that isn't always easy.

Growth is essential though; particularly if a different outcome is desired. Funny how some things might seem intimidating at first but the more we extend ourselves, the easier it gets. 

I value reading many posts here and certainly agree with your thoughts about SA.


----------



## azteca1986

ntamph said:


> Do you see the deal that average guys like you and me are being asked to accept with gratefulness?
> 
> 1. I am not sexually attracted to you. I will probably make you wait to have sex with me weeks or months. This is easy to do because you don't create lust in me like bad boy ex.


You are your own worst enemy. I only got this far before I thought "Why would anyone accept this for themselves?". Don't blame society for your own choices. 

I'm going to share a quote, that though not exactly profound, will change your life if you; read it, understand it and (learn to) live it.

*No one can make you feel inferior without your consent*

ETD: Finished the rest of your post. It's all victimspeak. Do yourself a favour and stop that.


----------



## heartsbeating

SimplyAmorous said:


> I feel everyone should study their Temperaments.. and learn what makes them TICK, what brings them happiness/ fulfillment, not what they THINK others will want them to be..... so they can cultivate, and grow from where their natural gifts/passions are....we all have them, even if we haven't tapped into what they are (maybe because we have been so beat up in life )...instead of trying to BE someone else (because we are envious of another's personality/ social standing)....this doesn't fare well...it just doesn't work.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with being a Nice person, not being a Partier, one doesn't need to be an extrovert either, or sleeping around. Things like this REALLY annoy me... far too many people go out in public wearing "masks" trying to *impress others*. trying to FIT IN... but do they? It's gotten so bad... Many of us are left trying to decipher who others REALLY ARE....only to learn down the road, they never even knew them....this too screws with many people's heads....why so little *TRUST* is alive in this world today.


As part of the human condition, we have so many different elements and moods. We can become attached to identity and what defines us in life and the reasons for the script we choose can vary. It's good for growth to face yourself and not just see the reflection but rather the good, the bad, and the ugly, and perhaps not even judge or label the behaviors in those ways. It just is. Although that doesn't mean we need to continue the same way either. Change is always harder and more challenging than staying the same.


----------



## Caribbean Man

azteca1986 said:


> You are your own worst enemy. I only got this far before I thought "Why would anyone accept this for themselves?". Don't blame society for your own choices.
> 
> I'm going to share a quote, that though not exactly profound, will change your life if you; read it, understand it and (learn to) live it.
> 
> *No one can make you feel inferior without your consent*
> 
> ETD: Finished the rest of your post. *It's all victimspeak. *Do yourself a favour and stop that.


..or maybe a cry for help?
Ether way , I agree with your post, he must first learn how to block out negatives voices and confront himself.
On the positive side, I think he's an observant fellow. 
What he has to do is learn how properly analyze and categorize what he's seeing.
One of the best things I've learned in life is that nothing is ever at it appears on the surface.
To understand, one must go deeper.


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## DesertRat1978

ForeverChanged,

There is no bigger turn off to women than being fake. If all you are is a well-crafted show, they know that eventually the facade will crack and you will be exposed. The fact that you had to put on a facade must mean that you are weak and insecure. 

I spent my teen years doing this. For reasons that I will not go into, I felt like chewing gum. Once chewed up, no one will ever want you so why not try to be someone else. It did not work in any way. Women, jobs, friends, nothing. In the end, I just accepted that I was a bit different and moved on. I have had no issues finding sex partners since that time.


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## RandomDude

Sister Hazel - Change Your Mind - YouTube


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## Faithful Wife

I agree ntamph has some self-hatred issues, or victim-of-women issues...but wow, he has surely been trying to work through those issues by creating his posts here at TAM. I think he is showing a great capacity to learn and grow by trying to challenge his own thinking. In reading between the lines of his posts, I think he really doesn't WANT to believe these negative messages his mind is full of, and is trying to find people to help him un-believe them.

This is going to do him a lot of good in the long run....some people in his shoes would dig deeper into the self-hatred/victimhood, instead of trying to dig out of the pit, which is what I perceive him doing.


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## WyshIknew

I've sometimes wondered about this myself.

Even though I have no wide experience, I seem to satisfy my wife plenty.
She is widely experienced and she thinks (apart from my first rather rushed fumbly attempts) that I am pretty damn good at what we do. That's all that counts I suppose.

I'd hate to have to start again and would be bit worried that I had learnt nothing. And that my 'skills', love making, were viewed as 'meh' by another woman.


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## Faithful Wife

Oh c'mon Wysh...get real with your bad self!


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## WyshIknew

Faithful Wife said:


> Oh c'mon Wysh...get real with your bad self!


I don't follow.

Surely not every woman is the same?

What has worked and satisfied my wife for the last 25 years may not be the same for others?

Or am I over analysing this?

Again!


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## Faithful Wife

Well, would you do you?


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## WyshIknew

Faithful Wife said:


> Well, would you do you?


Eeeeew no!


I'm a dude!


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## Faithful Wife

LOL! Ok.


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## WyshIknew

Thanks FW. I read your recommendation.

The answer, as far as I'm concerned is a resounding yes. I'm fit for my age, healthy, still horny, I think my looks have improved with age, I'm funny, passionate and faithful.

Heck I want to marry me now!


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## Faithful Wife

There ya go! Much better.


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## RandomDude

Wow, well done Faithful Wife you successfully made him gay!


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## Faithful Wife

No, I made him understand that being outright confident is HOT.


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## RandomDude

Uhuh, into wanting to do himself


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## EnjoliWoman

Wow. Kind of pathetic, that view on life, OP, after reading 1-4.

Here is the truth, more often than not. The women who is experienced gets tired of being used for sex all of the time and picks a nice guy/nerd who is responsible and reliable and trustworthy because she knows she can trust him with her heart.

The women who is plain and never gets a second glance will adore you for finally choosing her and will rock your world and dote on you regardless of her sexual history.

The shallow woman will dump you because you don't meet her criteria.

Maybe you just are going after the wrong women. Maybe you aren't looking for someone along the lines of your own sex rank. I see this ALL of the time - the 40/50-something guy with a big gut and crooked teeth thinking because he earns a whopping 50K a year  that he deserves a Stepford wife - trim/fit, pretty sex kitten. People need to get real. I'm not saying that's you but there IS something to the whole rank thing.


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## WyshIknew

Just call me Narcissus.


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## Faithful Wife

Want me to do it for you, too?


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## RandomDude

Nah I'm happy being straight thanks


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## Faithful Wife

Extremely sexual, confident people have no problem saying they'd do themselves.

It is different than being Self-Gay...which is a whole issue unto itself.


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## RandomDude

You know I'm just mucking around right? lol


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## Faithful Wife

Sure. Don't bash on my friend Wysh though....he deserves to be mucho confident!


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## RandomDude

I couldn't resist, he set himself up perfectly! lol


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## Faithful Wife

His avatar is himself looking dashing in a tux...yours is a kitten.

And he set himself up?


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## RandomDude

Oy! Don't knock kittens!

We already established that male cat lovers are the MANLIEST men around 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/67607-male-cat-lovers.html


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## DesertRat1978

RandomDude said:


> Oy! Don't knock kittens!
> 
> We already established that male cat lovers are the MANLIEST men around
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/67607-male-cat-lovers.html


I can buy into that. I have two cats (ages 10 and 11 in human years) and have no problem telling anybody.


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## RandomDude

Haha damn right!

 @ FaithfulWife


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## WyshIknew

Faithful Wife said:


> No, I made him understand that being outright confident is HOT.


Outright confident/Big headed.

Where is the dividing line?


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## Faithful Wife

When you are willing to hurt others for your own entertainment, you've crossed the line.


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## RandomDude

Big headed:

Ben Stiller ->
Dodgeball - The best bits - YouTube


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## WyshIknew

RandomDude said:


> Big headed:
> 
> Ben Stiller ->
> Dodgeball - The best bits - YouTube


I can't stand Ben Stiller, I think he is the most unfunny funny man I've seen.
That film he did about models was carp!


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## RandomDude

Lol I thought he did a pretty good job in dodgeball though


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## WyshIknew

I can see where somebody inexperienced and very unconfident would be a turn off.

But also feel that an overly confident person would also be a turn off.

All most inexperienced people need is a chance to shine!


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## ntamph

Faithful Wife said:


> I agree ntamph has some self-hatred issues, or victim-of-women issues...but wow, he has surely been trying to work through those issues by creating his posts here at TAM. I think he is showing a great capacity to learn and grow by trying to challenge his own thinking. In reading between the lines of his posts, I think he really doesn't WANT to believe these negative messages his mind is full of, and is trying to find people to help him un-believe them.
> 
> This is going to do him a lot of good in the long run....some people in his shoes would dig deeper into the self-hatred/victimhood, instead of trying to dig out of the pit, which is what I perceive him doing.


Aww, Faithful Wife, I don't even think I'm being that successful changing my thinking. But this motivates me to try better.


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## just got it 55

I can see some men being intimidated by a more experienced woman. If for example I just meet my wife

and I was say 25 years younger. She would scare the daylights out of me. We have been together for 40 
years.

So…. I have never been in that position. But in an alternate universe I would love to think I was up for the 
challenge and maybe teach the teacher.


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## Devotee

ntamph said:


> Posts # 3, 12, 14 and 31 specifically would have a problem with an inexperienced man and the others would not care either way. Except maybe SA.


I'm poster #31. 

I did not say I would have a problem with an inexperienced man, or that he was gross or unattractive. Don't twist the words to fit your agenda please. 

I just stated that I would want to know _why_ he had so very little experience. If a man is age 30+ and has had very little sexual experience at all-that would require some investigating. If I found him attractive and we were compatible in other ways then him having little experience would not be a deal breaker, as long as he had an interest in having sex.

I did state that I find guys who are a little shy very attractive. I have never found the typical Alpha male type appealing. So generally I sought out and dated guys who did not have a significant number of partners or experience. However, I was married before age 30, so I have not been in the dating pool with men over 30.


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## diwali123

What's the definition of inexperienced? A virgin? Or some one who has only had one or two partners? 
Personally I think finding out a man is a virgin at age 40 would be tough to handle. For anyone to go that long without sex, there have to be some major differences in our upbringing, beliefs and personalities that might be a huge challenge. 
If it were religious I would probably have to say good bye; because I'm just so different from that we wouldn't be compatible. 

My husband only slept with one other woman before me and that was his ex wife. However I would hardly call him inexperienced. They were together a long time and did a lot. I did worry that he might regret not seeing what else was out there but that hasn't been a problem. 
He's really the best lover I've had. I don't think number of partners really says much.


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## samyeagar

diwali123 said:


> What's the definition of inexperienced? A virgin? Or some one who has only had one or two partners?
> Personally I think finding out a man is a virgin at age 40 would be tough to handle. For anyone to go that long without sex, there have to be some major differences in our upbringing, beliefs and personalities that might be a huge challenge.
> If it were religious I would probably have to say good bye; because I'm just so different from that we wouldn't be compatible.
> 
> My husband only slept with one other woman before me and that was his ex wife. However I would hardly call him inexperienced. They were together a long time and did a lot. I did worry that he might regret not seeing what else was out there but that hasn't been a problem.
> He's really the best lover I've had. I don't think number of partners really says much.


Excellent! Yo touch on a very important thing. The general assumption when saying inexperienced is that they are referring to number of partners, but as you pointed out, that is not necessarily a gauge of anything.

My STBW has been with thirty some men. I've been with three women including her. I have probably had sex nearly twice as many times as she has, and I learned a lot with that practice. She never had to learn much with her past lovers because they never really expected much from her other than to lie there, and before me, she was never particularly motivated to do more because everything seemed to work for them. She was very good at what she did for them. With me, it's a learning experience.


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## jennyh80

I'd rather him be a virgin, a "good boy", than a sl*t who's slept around.


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## theroad

samyeagar said:


> Read the two threads regarding orgasms and how important they are to their partners. The men and women are starkly different in attitude. It would not shock me in the least if women are less patient and tolerant of this than men.


Link's?


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## theroad

I do not have the time to read all the posts though it got off the topic. As for men speaking when the topic was asked for women's opinions of men that are inexperienced.

There are men that do not have any game. They know they are not going to get 10, 9, 8, though they hope to get a 7 as their dream girl. Happy even with a 5.

They can not fake an erections for the women that model Designs by Omar the Tent Maker.

Same for the Lee sisters, Ugh, Ghast, and Home and do not forget their cousin Beast.

They search for a women that they find attractive. Example small rack is ok cause I like her smile, it lights up the room. He tries to be realistic because Mr No Game knows he's just average looking, average money with no game.

As women get older the dating pool shrinks. So it was hard for him to get laid at 20, it is harder at 30, then still harder at 40.

He can be bad in bed, average, to great. He never gets to show it.

Any way it does not matter what the reason a woman will not touch a man with no experience. It is not good or bad it is what it is. Can not fault individuals for their preferences.

There are 20 yo men out there that will not marry a 20 yo girl that has already done 20 guys.

Though a 40 yo women that has slept with 20 guys will not sound as high of a body count to a 40 yo guy.

I do not know of a young guy that does not like the fantasy of a MILF to teach him the ropes.

So I guess the fantasy can be reversed. The MILF wants to break in a young guy.


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## SimplyAmorous

theroad said:


> Link's?


Samyeagar is referring to my thread I believe..


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## SimplyAmorous

theroad said:


> So I guess the fantasy can be reversed. The MILF wants to break in a young guy.


If I wasn't married & lost my morals (I do frown on causal sex)... this would be a huge fantasy of mine....just saying.


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## manticore

mmm i was a late bloomer comparing myself with my generation, i lost my virginity when i was 18 (almost 19) my GF had at least (that i know) 3 partners before me, but before having sex with her i read a lot, because i had a complex about dissapointing her, so i researched everything i could (she was not my first kiss or my first groping).

So first time, lots of foreplay, I eat her V, when she was wet missionary, and i had read the 3 positions with more penetration, i used two of them scissors and doggie, and even if it was my first time by using condom i lasted quite a bit. 

BTW i never tell her i was virgin (i felt ashamed about it) and i dont think she thought i was, i catched pretty soon with what she liked.

learned later that not just because you are experienced you are going to have a magical encounter with everybody the fist time, just as men women have their preferences and timings, some of them want lights out, some wanted slow and touchy, others liked kissing during the act, and i had problems with one in particular that liked foreplay to the point that she was about to come, but when she finally let me in she just lasted like 5 minutes before her O and that did not work for me, i actually told her that she was a selfish lover, just worrying about her satisfaction.

anyway my point is that experience is not that important compared to the effort you put on it, my first time i was so nervous that i did not enjoy it that much and that night was not about me but about not dissapointing her, and she was not.


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## jennyh80

A man doesn't need to be experienced. The partner still needs to tell what they like even if he was experienced. You don't even need to know exactly where to stick your penis with women because many times she guides it in anyway.


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## manticore

jennyh80 said:


> A man doesn't need to be experienced. The partner still needs to tell what they like even if he was experienced. You don't even need to know exactly where to stick your penis with women because many times she guides it in anyway.


yup that was my point. in the end unless there is an aditionally thrill like having and affair or having sex in a public place you will have to learn what suits your partner better and is a new learning experience


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## WyshIknew

SimplyAmorous said:


> If I wasn't married & lost my morals (I do frown on causal sex)... this would be a huge fantasy of mine....just saying.


As a young teenager this would have been absolute heaven to me.
Like you I would not indulge in casual sex, even then.
I would need to feel an empathy with that person, and a deep infatuation.

But what a rush for the two of them, she gets to break in a young man, introduce him to the joys and wonder of sex, train him to be a better lover. And the vigour of a young man.

He gets the experience, the skills and patience of a mature vibrant woman, someone who can teach him all the love techniques from the SIM thread.

You know I think this should be passed by parliament and your Congress? as a law. :rofl:


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## theroad

WyshIknew said:


> As a young teenager this would have been absolute heaven to me.
> Like you I would not indulge in casual sex, even then.
> I would need to feel an empathy with that person, and a deep infatuation.
> 
> But what a rush for the two of them, she gets to break in a young man, introduce him to the joys and wonder of sex, train him to be a better lover. And the vigour of a young man.
> 
> He gets the experience, the skills and patience of a mature vibrant woman, someone who can teach him all the love techniques from the SIM thread.
> 
> You know I think this should be passed by parliament and your Congress? as a law. :rofl:


Wake up and smell the coffee. How long have you been living in the land of denial?


The problem with "your" law is simple.





There are not enough MILFS to go around.


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## WyshIknew

theroad said:


> Wake up and smell the coffee. How long have you been living in the land of denial?
> 
> 
> The problem with "your" law is simple.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are not enough MILFS to go around.


Is it?

Gosh I'd never thought of that.


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## SimplyAmorous

WyshIknew said:


> As a young teenager this would have been absolute heaven to me.
> Like you I would not indulge in casual sex, even then.
> I would need to feel an empathy with that person, and a deep infatuation.
> 
> But what a rush for the two of them, she gets to break in a young man, introduce him to the joys and wonder of sex, train him to be a better lover. And the vigour of a young man.
> 
> He gets the experience, the skills and patience of a mature vibrant woman, someone who can teach him all the love techniques from the SIM thread.
> 
> You know I think this should be passed by parliament and your Congress? as a law. :rofl:


 Hormonally they are the perfect match, both in their sexual Primes...this was well explained in one of my Hormone books.."*The alchemy of Love & Lust*"- loved that book!

I shouldn't talk like this on TAM, it makes me LOOK BAD!! Somehow I don't believe you Wysh...you'd jump on that if you had a chance back then, even without the infatuation, just let her flash some legs and ...well.......ha ha 

I know one thing -if something happened to my husband 4 yrs ago....I would have been in a world of trouble - let loose...that was just not an easy time for me. Thankfully this has passed..for his sake too


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## WyshIknew

SimplyAmorous said:


> Hormonally they are the perfect match, both in their sexual Primes...this was well explained in one of my Hormone books.."*The alchemy of Love & Lust*"- loved that book!
> 
> I shouldn't talk like this on TAM, it makes me LOOK BAD!! Somehow I don't believe you Wysh...you'd jump on that if you had a chance back then, even without the infatuation, just let her flash some legs and ...well.......ha ha
> 
> I know one thing -if something happened to my husband 4 yrs ago....I would have been in a world of trouble - let loose...that was just not an easy time for me. Thankfully this has passed..for his sake too





Somehow I don't believe you Wysh...you'd jump on that if you had a chance back then, even without the infatuation, just let her flash some legs and ...well.......ha ha


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## Rayloveshiswife

My wife and I met in our early 20s. I was a socially awkward virgin and she was experienced, probably 10 to 15 partners or so. She originally dated me because she had been screwed over by yet another player, which was the type of man she was drawn to. Initially she loved being my first everything, but when the sex was not what she was used to. problems started. She did not have an orgasm for the first two years we were together. I never knew this because she faked them. Eventually she said she was not having sex with me anymore because it sucked. Wow. First I heard of it. She was also not willing to help me learn. Long story short. I got way better at fore play to help her out while I worked on my technique. And soon all was good. But in my defense, most of this could have been avoided if she had just told me I was not satisfying her. 

Years later she told me she dated me because she was tired of being hurt and figured the chances of her hurting me were higher than me hurting her. She had never consitter that my sexual inexperience might cause problems. In the end, I learned to make love with the best of them and can rock her world every time out. But I would suspect if she had it to do over again she might not choose a sexually inexperienced partner to be her husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KingofIstatements

I love TAM for browsing open-ended discussion like these, the variety of opinions and experiences can really help with figuring out stuff that troubles me in a way no amount of $ thrown at a therapist would ever be able to. 

However, if the subject of discussion is a very common experience (for either gender), and also controversial, it sometimes seems the prevailing wisdom you’ll hear is “that’s cliche, so its obviously not true.”

I could be the stereotypical poster boy for what you’re asking about ntamph, and have also held similar beliefs about the nice guy/ bad boy dynamic since late adolescence. Though that of course does make me wonder… Do I find myself in a nearly sexless marriage because the beliefs I’ve held are correct, or are they prophecies self-fulfilled? 

To the point of your question- though I’m not a Lady I thought I could chime in: I’d met my wife at a time when I’d matured greatly in a short amount of time, and gained much more confidence. So I’m sure she found me attractive in a way she (or any other woman) wouldn’t have even a year earlier. 

After we became intimate, she’d later claimed to have simply no idea how lacking in experience I was, things were good. 
But... I can still remember the shrinking look on her face in the moonlight on the night we had “that talk” several months later. If I’d been paying closer attention I would’ve heard the mental tires screeching.


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