# I want what she gave her AP



## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

I'm broken here and don't know what to do.

Background is that frequency of sex has always been an issue for my wife and I. We've been married 11 years. I wanted it more, she wanted it less. Same problem a lot of couples have. That changed somewhat when she became pregnant with our last child who is now 9 months old. Her desire really went up during the pregnancy and seems to still be higher than it was. That part seems great.

Here is the wrench in the whole thing. She started cheating on me 5 months into the pregnancy and continued until just 4 months ago when I found out about it. She stopped the affair after I took steps to end it. I insisted that she quit her job since the AP was a coworker. She is now home with our two children (the older one is 4).

She was very sexually attracted to this guy and pursued him on a regular basis. I know this from my own investigation into emails and such while I was digging for evidence of the affair. Now, she tells me that she loves me, but is not sexually attracted to me. So not only am I dealing with the pain of my wife having an affair with another man, I am also struggling with the rejection of me as her husband in the sex department. I wish I could describe the intense pain that this is causing me. 

I know the normal advice is to do the man up stuff. I have read several good books on this including Athol's book, the married man sexual primer. I've read no more mr nice guy, and while I think I am a nice guy, I'm not all THAT nice. The problem is that I can't bring myself to do those things while I am hurting so bad. I need to feel loved and not cast aside as a sex partner. I need the attention that she so willingly piled onto her AP.

She is back in the marriage, we are in MC, and my wife wants to do the things that the counselor suggests like doing more things together and talking to one another and all that. All that stuff sounds great, but it almost feels degrading to me. It's like I need to be unbroken first. And that means I need loving sex from my wife. I need the egg before the chicken. Does that make sense?

What do I do? What do I ask for from my wife so she understands? Or do I just suffer silently and do the married man sex stuff? Suffering silently is soooooooo painful that I just can't show enthusiasm for the other stuff.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

It makes total sense. And I completely understand where your coming from. I dont' think there is a good answer to this, other than to say - you probably need to print off a copy of your post and simply hand it to your wife. At this point, I think it is her resonsibility to know what she has done to you... and to know where your head is at. 

I also think it's healthy if she knows that she may have damaged/destroyed this relationship beyond repair and face the concept that it may not be recoverable. The onus is on HER to regain YOUR attraction and loyalty. I think I personally, would work from that angle.


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

Sounds like the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" speech. Take a look here:Married Man Sex Life then get a copy of the Married Man Sex Life Primer and read it NOW!!


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

romantic_guy said:


> Sounds like the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" speech. Take a look here:Married Man Sex Life then get a copy of the Married Man Sex Life Primer and read it NOW!!


I don't think you read the whole post.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

I understand your reasoning. You want enthusiastic sex from your wife, but you don't want to create the attraction necessary for her to be enthusiastic. That's understandable. You're a broken man who needs time to heal.

If you think that one or two sexual encounters could get you over the hump, then tell your wife how you feel. She can probably fake enthusiasm once or twice. If you require more than two sessions, then you need to figure it out on your own.

As eagleclaw suggested, if you think you can put the burden for sex on your wife, try that. However, since women are generally sexually responsive to men, I don't know if it would work.

Also, I suggest you test the paternity of your youngest child.

Good luck.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> You're a broken man who needs time to heal.


I guess this is it. 



PHTlump said:


> She can probably fake enthusiasm once or twice.


Yuk.



PHTlump said:


> Then you need to figure it out on your own.


Sigh..



PHTlump said:


> As eagleclaw suggested, if you think you can put the burden for sex on your wife, try that. However, since women are generally sexually responsive to men, I don't know if it would work.


I agree, I don't think that would work either.


Maybe I just need to step away from it all and do whatever the hell I want for awhile.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Is she willing to have sex if you initiate, or is she still rejecting a large number of your advances?


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

TheGoodFight said:


> She was very sexually attracted to this guy and pursued him on a regular basis. I know this from my own investigation into emails and such while I was digging for evidence of the affair. *Now, she tells me that she loves me, but is not sexually attracted to me.* So not only am I dealing with the pain of my wife having an affair with another man, *I am also struggling with the rejection of me as her husband in the sex department.* I wish I could describe the intense pain that this is causing me.
> 
> What do I do? What do I ask for from my wife so she understands? Or do I just suffer silently and do the married man sex stuff? Suffering silently is soooooooo painful that I just can't show enthusiasm for the other stuff.


TheGoodFight- Your wife says that she really likes you paying her bills and giving her a place to sleep, er, sorry, she says that she loves you, but she's not sexually attracted to you.

Why don't you try telling her that you want to have sex with her regularly, but that you don't really want her around all the other times, and she needs to go pay her own bills? Explain to her that this is only a temporary arrangement, until you find a woman you like to have sex with and want around you all the time, at which point you will bravely face a life without your current wife's "love."

Lordmayhem likes to post a chart listing the differences between remorse and rug sweeping. If your wife is still saying "I would bark like a dog for my AP, but sex with you is icky," she is not truly remorseful about her affair. If she doesn't know this is a big deal to you, after what she has done, she doesn't respect you enough to listen to you. If she DOES know this is a big deal to you, and still maintains her "sex with you is icky" stance, she flat out doesn't give a damn about you, other than that gee, it sure is nice to have you pay her bills.

Guys like to focus on what their wives say, and ignore what they DO. But your wife isn't actually trying to pull a fast one here, you're just not-wanting to see or hear what she is saying.

What is she DOING? She's not-having lots of sex with you. What is she SAYING? Oh, wait. She's saying she doesn't find you sexually attractive. But she did find this OTHER guy sexually attractive, so it's not a question of low sex drive. She just has low sex drive with you.

The affair is 100% on her. Keeping her after the affair is 100% on you. 

What do you do? What do you ask for from your wife so she understands?

How about a divorce? That at least lets her know you are serious. And, this may come as a surprise to you, but the threat of losing their meal ticket scares some women. It makes them desperate. It might even make her fake finding you desirable for awhile, and then you would get the sex you want.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

NotLikeYou said:


> TheGoodFight- Your wife says that she really likes you paying her bills and giving her a place to sleep, er, sorry, she says that she loves you, but she's not sexually attracted to you.
> 
> Why don't you try telling her that you want to have sex with her regularly, but that you don't really want her around all the other times, and she needs to go pay her own bills? Explain to her that this is only a temporary arrangement, until you find a woman you like to have sex with and want around you all the time, at which point you will bravely face a life without your current wife's "love."
> 
> ...


Pretty well put. It might also give her some respect back for you and start you on the right path to becoming attractive to her again. Be mysterious, be engaging, be unpredictable, and don't get complacent. Go out, do things, let her wonder what your up to. If she doesn't care or wonder, your already done.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Is she willing to have sex if you initiate, or is she still rejecting a large number of your advances?


I've only tried to directly initiate twice in the last two months. I was turned down both times. We have had sex though and I'm sure I wouldn't be turned down a whole lot but who wants to have sex with someone who says they don't want it from you?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

TheGoodFight said:


> I've only tried to directly initiate twice in the last two months. I was turned down both times. We have had sex though and I'm sure I wouldn't be turned down a whole lot but who wants to have sex with someone who says they don't want it from you?


In a normal "non-cheating" scenario, being more aggressive can be attractive to a woman. Women are less likely to initiate themselves. Pursuing her, in the form of flirting, initiating, etc., can up your attractiveness as she sees a sexual man.

But as a WW, she needs to up her game. If she is not willing to do that, I suspect the other posters have it right - she is not fully remorseful. May not be conscious, but she seems to be trying to do the least she can to keep you around.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

NotLikeYou said:


> TheGoodFight- Your wife says that she really likes you paying her bills and giving her a place to sleep, er, sorry, she says that she loves you, but she's not sexually attracted to you.
> 
> Why don't you try telling her that you want to have sex with her regularly, but that you don't really want her around all the other times, and she needs to go pay her own bills? Explain to her that this is only a temporary arrangement, until you find a woman you like to have sex with and want around you all the time, at which point you will bravely face a life without your current wife's "love."
> 
> ...


I get what you're saying and I don't lack anger on the subject. I'm currently her meal ticket at my own request. She is living at home because I told her to quit the affair and quit the job or get divorced.

It's not a lack of remorse at this point. It's a lack of attraction. The reality is that not every spouse that has an affair comes running back with the "Please don't leave me I'll do whatever you want and become your sex slave forever" attitude.

I get what you're saying. It's a difference between what would be the ideal and what is the reality. And the reality is that I have a remorseful spouse that is honest when she says she doesn't have those feelings of burning desire for me and doesn't know why. I really think that she wishes she did.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

TheGoodFight said:


> I get what you're saying and I don't lack anger on the subject. I'm currently her meal ticket at my own request. She is living at home because I told her to quit the affair and quit the job or get divorced.
> 
> It's not a lack of remorse at this point. It's a lack of attraction. The reality is that not every spouse that has an affair comes running back with the "Please don't leave me I'll do whatever you want and become your sex slave forever" attitude.
> 
> I get what you're saying. It's a difference between what would be the ideal and what is the reality. And the reality is that I have a remorseful spouse that is honest when she says she doesn't have those feelings of burning desire for me and doesn't know why. I really think that she wishes she did.


So can you live with this? Assuming nothing changes (and it likely won't), can you live with the fact that she "loves" you but is not "in love with you". Because at the end of the day, that it was this really is.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I think she is trying to hurt you back for ending her affair and for making her leave her affair enabling job. This may be subconscious on her part, but I think that is why she's nt putting effort into finding you attractive.

attraction isnt something you can turn on or off in an instant, however it s something you can work on building. Her deciding to seek out seeing the good in you, the attractive qualities in you etc is how she can build it in herself. But she isn't and she is fighting doing so. If she can just keep it up, eventually you'll either live with it, or you'll let her go back to her affair.

She does not seem like she is interested in fixing the relationship. Instead she wants to do the minimum she can to put her cheating behind and no longer have it be what she is guilty of. But,she is only trying to return to the pre guilty status quo, where what you are looking for is a new better marriage.

Bottom line is, if she isn't going to join in to buid a new different marriage, then perhaps divorce will be the best option. She needs to understand that divorce is still on the table here. Her affair ended the old marriage. It's gone. The relationship the two of you had will never be the same. She will always be the one who eagerly cheated.

The question now is if she is willing to be part ofa new different marriage where the dynamic has changed, and where you have expectations that she will put effort into improving sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CWM0842 (Dec 8, 2011)

Are you sure the kid is yours? She could've just thrown off the timeline. You say it started 4 months into her pregnancy. Would the average guy be attracted to someone who might already be physically showing pregnancy? Other than my wife, it'd be pretty weird to me. Either way, she cheated on you while pregnant with your (supposed) child. She can't respect you very much. I would just leave if I were you.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

CWM0842 said:


> Are you sure the kid is yours? She could've just thrown off the timeline. You say it started 4 months into her pregnancy. Would the average guy be attracted to someone who might already be physically showing pregnancy? Other than my wife, it'd be pretty weird to me. Either way, she cheated on you while pregnant with your (supposed) child. She can't respect you very much. I would just leave if I were you.


You know I think it's just weird as hell too, but I've checked and the kid is mine and it did in fact start when she says it did. The only thing I can figure is that the OM had a pregnant wife at the time as well so maybe it wasn't a problem for him.

Nice guy huh?


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Look, what you had wasn't working. Thus she went elswhere. Therefore it's reasonable to assume if you allow things to remain the same... once again that will be the outcome. At the very least, you will get no passion from her and a very sparse sex life. Can we agree that this is unacceptable?

So, with that in mind the only way to change things.... is to CHANGE THINGS. Even children understand consequences. So heres the deal. She is STILL turning you down, and even when you are having sex she is not attracted and not interested but is doing grocery list in her head while you do your thing.

So follow that process as she has given it to you. Tell her that her lack of attraction and interest has deadenend your feelings for her. You aren't interested or satisified with that kind of relationship - one where your doing all the heavy lifting and providing for her but she is not vested. That on top of the fact she cheated has changed your feelings for her. (Don't elaborate on how, let her stew on that.) Don't explain anything more. If she asks questions tell her your confused, you don't know, your not sure etc.

Then start working out, get a new hair cut, get some new clothes. Be the best version of you, you can be. Like you would be if you entered the dating world again. Don't lounge at home in your pj's and sweats. Be mindful of your appearance.

Go out with friends. Go out with guys. Don't tell her what your doing and let her mind wonder. Dont' do anything untoward - your not trolling just be a great version of you that is active, busy and in high demand. Go have fun with your buddies. Spend a few evenings in someones garage drinking beer. Come home late. Be unapologetic and mysterious. Let her wonder what your up to.

And seriously if nothing is changing, write up a divorce agreement. You don't have to file immediately and even if you do it can be unfiled. Make this real for her. If she doesn't fight it, or make an effort, you have already lost her anyways.


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

TheGoodFight said:


> I get what you're saying and I don't lack anger on the subject. I'm currently her meal ticket at my own request. She is living at home because I told her to quit the affair and quit the job or get divorced.
> 
> It's not a lack of remorse at this point. It's a lack of attraction. The reality is that not every spouse that has an affair comes running back with the "Please don't leave me I'll do whatever you want and become your sex slave forever" attitude.
> 
> I get what you're saying. It's a difference between what would be the ideal and what is the reality. And the reality is that I have a remorseful spouse that is honest when she says she doesn't have those feelings of burning desire for me and doesn't know why. I really think that she wishes she did.


Well, it's your marriage, so if you say its true remorse and true lack-of-affection, I can't very well argue your conclusion.

But I'm going to try 

You are right, not every spouse returns and pledges themselves into bondage to their partner. But the point I made above is valid- she only has low sex drive with you, not that other guy.

I don't know if her feelings are genuine or not. Maybe she is being straight with you about her lack of desire, and can't explain its basis to you. 

Or maybe once again her words and actions are in perfect alignment- she cheated on you, which suggests that she doesn't love you. She doesn't have sex with you, which suggests that she doesn't love you. And then she SAYS she doesn't like having sex with you, which also suggests that she doesn't love you.

Now, I know sex isn't everything. There are some people who just don't enjoy sex, regardless of whether they're married or not, and.... Oh, wait. She had an affair. Looks like she enjoys sex. 

I guess I'm suggesting that you stop taking things at her pace. She betrayed the marriage. If it is as valuable to her as she claims it to be, it seems like she would be prepared to do whatever it takes to heal the wound she inflicted on you. If that means closing her eyes and pretending you turn her on, well, there are worse things in life than having sex with your husband.

TGF, you elected to keep your wife after she had another man putting his penis in her on multiple occasions. That is your choice, but a lot of wives in similar situation don't get a second chance. Their husband kicks them to the curb. And you're not even rejecting her. You just want her to have sex with you enthusiastically, LIKE SHE DID THE OTHER MAN. And her response is.....



to reject you.


This is not remorse. I know you want to see that. You might think you NEED to see that. But it is not remorse.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

This is hale mary so to speak. You don't want what you HAD, you don't want things as they are, and you don't want things to go back to how they were. The only options is something NEW, and better than you had. Otherwise there is no point. And that starts with you....be a better you. Be the best you you can be.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

NOTLIKEYOU and I are in perfect agreement. The path you are on leads exactly to where you currently are. Break out of the circle.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

I think she is calling your bluff.

You told her you would take her back if she gave up her AP. But she is showing that you can't make her love you.

You need to show her that you expect more that giving up her AP. You need to show her that you will divorce her rather than live in a loveless and sexless marriage.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

SadSamIAm said:


> I think she is calling your bluff.
> 
> You told her you would take her back if she gave up her AP. But she is showing that you can't make her love you.
> 
> You need to show her that you expect more that giving up her AP. You need to show her that you will divorce her rather than live in a loveless and sexless marriage.


And you need to do this sooner, rather than later.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

TheGoodFight said:


> You know I think it's just weird as hell too, but I've checked and the kid is mine and it did in fact start when she says it did. The only thing I can figure is that the OM had a pregnant wife at the time as well so maybe it wasn't a problem for him.
> 
> Nice guy huh?


If you haven't paid for a paternity test, you really don't KNOW who fathered the child.
She's just using you for a meal ticket until the time comes when she can move on with her stud.
Put yourself in her shoes:
If you were disgusted with having sex with HER and knew where you could get what you want, ho long would you resist going to the OW?
Trust me, it wouldn't be forever.
Get the divorce and let the system work out a way to sure visitation and habitation with the children and YOU.
If you take YOURS and she ends up taking the last one because it isn't YOURS, let her find a way to pay YOU child support and you can start to mend your psyche.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Well, I initiated sex last night and got a bj instead. I tried kissing but got some rather dead lips. It didn't feel like she was in the mood but didn't want to turn me away completely. Maybe I'll try again tonight.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

An enthusiastic one, or one like her lips where she really didn't seem invested in it?

Cuz if it's the latter, you should not accept this..... I would have stopped it right at that point.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

TheGoodFight said:


> She is back in the marriage, we are in MC, and my wife wants to do the things that the counselor suggests like doing more things together and talking to one another and all that. All that stuff sounds great, but it almost feels degrading to me. It's like I need to be unbroken first. And that means I need loving sex from my wife. I need the egg before the chicken. Does that make sense?
> 
> What do I do? What do I ask for from my wife so she understands? Or do I just suffer silently and do the married man sex stuff? Suffering silently is soooooooo painful that I just can't show enthusiasm for the other stuff.


Hi GoodFight ~

You state that you are in MC, but are you in IC? I think you should be, so that you can figure out ways to work through your pain and move forward - so that you can kind of find yourself again - and see your value and worth.

Right now, you admit that you are broken. And you are wanting your wife to fix it - you want her to validate your self worth by showing you her unbridled passion. That's understandable in a situation like this. But, you need to get to the point where you see that YOU are a man who is worthy of anyone's respect and devotion, and if she doesn't see that, then that's HER problem. And I think you might need some guidance to get there.

And, since she's the spouse who stepped out in all of this - then I believe that she needs to be putting in a lot of effort to try and right this ship. She needs to be in IC too to figure out all her selfish and shallow concerns. And she needs to step up in being transparent and being willing to show that she wants to do the heavy lifting. Her constantly telling you that she just doesn't feel that desire - that is not being willing to do heavy lifting. Her picking up the phone and setting up an IC appointment, her actively participating in MC, her being transparent to her, her communicating with you, her being understanding and supportive and not dismissive of you - those are things that would show she is really willing to reconcile.

Best wishes.


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

eagleclaw said:


> An enthusiastic one, or one like her lips where she really didn't seem invested in it?
> 
> Cuz if it's the latter, you should not accept this..... I would have stopped it right at that point.


Ahem. I hate to point out rays of sunshine in an otherwise cloudy day, but if OP went for intercourse and "had to settle" for a bj, I have to think the situation isn't exactly hopeless.

Oh, she wasn't enthusiastic? Darn. We're talking bj here- there is no "bad," there are only different shades of "good"

Although I have to admit, the idea of saying "Suck it like you enjoy it, or I'm out of here" did bring a smile to my face.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

NotLikeYou said:


> Ahem. I hate to point out rays of sunshine in an otherwise cloudy day, but if OP went for intercourse and "had to settle" for a bj, I have to think the situation isn't exactly hopeless.
> 
> Oh, she wasn't enthusiastic? Darn. We're talking bj here- there is no "bad," there are only different shades of "good"
> 
> Although I have to admit, the idea of saying "Suck it like you enjoy it, or I'm out of here" did bring a smile to my face.


LMAO - you actually make coffee come out my nose.


I was thinking more along the lines of if she was doing this begrudgedly and behaving like she really didn't want to do it, I personally wouldn't accept that kind of backdrop for an intimate encounter. BJ's are good, but it doesn't feel good to think/know that someone is only doing it to get you off there back and out of a sense of "i have to".


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

eagleclaw, you're absolutely right that enthusiasm beats sending off a sense of obligation, but don't underestimate the attraction of grudge sex, either.

The Bloodhound Gang - A Lap Dance Is So Much Better When The Stripper Is Crying - YouTube


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

You can't get it.... She pursued another man, for a long time and did while pregnant...... eww (not that there is anything wrong with sleeping with YOUR pregnant wife)!!!! She has admitted she does not find you sexy or that you compare to the AP. She doesn't want or is interested in sex now with you (though the child is still under 1). Anyone who ACTIVELY cheats on their spouse (i.e. chooses and pursues an affair), with 2 young children at home, is damaged.

There is no way at this point to repair the marriage.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Yea maybe it is over. She is killing what little feelings I have for her a little more each day I'm afraid. I think I need to start preparing myself for an exit. I feel so sorry for my two children.

I hate working out with weights though.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Youve entered the time to make the new marriage. The shock of the ws is past,the battle to end the affair, and the dust. No you are lost because neither of you knows how to start making the new marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Don't quit too easily. Instead you need to change up your game and not be the husband she cheated on, and she needs to not that wife that cheated on you.

It's time to reinvent both of you and to make a new relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> Don't quit too easily. Instead you need to change up your game and not be the husband she cheated on, and she needs to not that wife that cheated on you.
> 
> It's time to reinvent both of you and to make a new relationship.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But that knowledge will never, ever, go away. You can't un-ring the bell...


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## Monty4321 (Jul 15, 2011)

TheGoodFight said:


> I'm broken here and don't know what to do.
> 
> Background is that frequency of sex has always been an issue for my wife and I. We've been married 11 years. I wanted it more, she wanted it less. Same problem a lot of couples have. That changed somewhat when she became pregnant with our last child who is now 9 months old. Her desire really went up during the pregnancy and seems to still be higher than it was. That part seems great.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't know what to do if this happened to me. I would not know how to deal with the pain of such a situation. 

The only way I know how to overcome the pain is having GOD (Jesus) in my life, praying to him, and trusting in Him. Trust me, He is the extra help and you could use it.

Good luck to you.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> But that knowledge will never, ever, go away. You can't un-ring the bell...


Never said it would. It's forever part of each of them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> Never said it would. It's forever part of each of them.


Exactly - I don't think I made myself properly clear.

When you said:


> Don't quit too easily. Instead you need to change up your game and not be the husband she cheated on, and she needs to not that wife that cheated on you.


They will both ALWAYS be those original people - no matter how much they re-invent themselves, those people will still be there and the experience will be part of them.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> Exactly - I don't think I made myself properly clear.
> 
> When you said:
> 
> They will both ALWAYS be those original people - no matter how much they re-invent themselves, those people will still be there and the experience will be part of them.


What I was trying to convey is not slipping into the same old ways or even trying to return things to the way they before.

She is non sexual with the old husband. She doesn't desire him, nor I suspect respect him. 

Btw. He was originally planning on blowing up the OM happy situation once she was gone from that job. As it stands the OM suffered nothing for his part. I can't help but thing the WS sees this and feels the OM bested the OP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Well, FWTW on that subject. She says that she knows that she no longer loves him. I asked her why, and she said because she doesn't care if his wife finds out anymore. Now she is only thinking of herself, not him.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

This was a timely post:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/39429-heal-yourself-nobody-will-do-you.html

And I think this is what some are trying to say. Of course, as with anything worthwhile, easy to say, harder to do.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

TheGoodFight said:


> This was a timely post:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/39429-heal-yourself-nobody-will-do-you.html
> 
> And I think this is what some are trying to say. Of course, as with anything worthwhile, easy to say, harder to do.


Yes.

You have an interesting user name - TheGoodFight.

I don't know whether you are religious or not, but in the Bible (in the book of Timothy) there's a verse that is oft quoted in secular circles as well: "_I have fought a good fight. I have finished my course, I have kept the faith_."

And that is exactly what you have to do.

Wishing you all the best in the journey ahead.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

So just a kind of update.

Last weekend, I took a printout of my original post and a few replys that I thought were interesting along with me to our MC session.

The MC pointed out that I had left out some things from my original post. I left out what got us to this point in our relationship where my wife felt comfortable stepping outside of the marriage. 

So here is the rest of the story as I currently understand it.

Basically, my wife and had grown apart emotionally since the birth of our first child a little over four years ago. She didn't feel like she was getting the help with raising our son that she needed. She also started to feel like we never did anything or went anywhere for fun. She started to see life as mundane, and started to resent me for what she perceived as a lack of interest in being a part of family life.

When she discovered that we were having another (unplanned) baby, this only added to the problem. It wasn't long after we found out about our second child that she started the affair.

I'm still a little fuzzy on why it exactly happened like it did, but from what we have talked through so far, it seemed to be a combination of her becoming more interested in sex due to hormones, a perceived mundane existence at home, and the excitement and escape from that existence that the affair offered. 

I'll admit that while we were both working full time jobs, she took on most of the burden of raising our son. I wasn't totally absent. I was in the home, I rarely went out anywhere without her, and we never really fought about anything. But I did let her do most of the work. 

In my defense, she never really came to me and said that it was a big problem for her. Sure, I could see that she was stressed out sometimes, but that seemed normal to me with a young child in the house and if I was ever actually asked to do anything, I'm pretty sure I didn't say no. But I didn't offer up my help either, which is what she resents me for. In her eyes, if I had wanted to help out and spend more time with them then I would have.

And really, my resentments in the marriage had been brewing much longer. I had come to resent her for not wanting to meet my needs in the sex department long before our first child was born. In fact, I had brought it up a number of times and felt like she never really tried to change anything.

So this is part of the reason I was and am so crushed by the sexual aspect of my wifes cheating. She gave another man what I had wanted all along. I feel like if she had met my needs in the relationship all along, then I may have been more willing to meet hers.

So now you have the rest of the story without me writing a book.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

TheGoodFight said:


> She also started to feel like we never did anything or went anywhere for fun. She started to see life as mundane, and started to resent me for what she perceived as a lack of interest in being a part of family life.


Athol Kay wrote a blog post with a line that's stuck with me.

_*If you're boring, she's whoring.*_


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

TheGoodFight said:


> So just a kind of update.
> 
> Last weekend, I took a printout of my original post and a few replys that I thought were interesting along with me to our MC session.
> 
> ...


What was her response to your resentment over the lack of sex from early on? What has she done to fix that?

What was your response to her resentment over helping and having more fun? What have you done to fix that?

Do you think the level of effort is about equal between you?


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> What was her response to your resentment over the lack of sex from early on? What has she done to fix that?
> 
> What was your response to her resentment over helping and having more fun? What have you done to fix that?
> 
> Do you think the level of effort is about equal between you?


Well, I've changed my ways as far as helping out with the kids. I figured it was a good thing to spend time with my children regardless. Of course, she is home all day now so a lot of that burden still falls on her during the day. 

As far as the resentment I have over the sex issue. We have discussed it, but she says that I was asking for it too much and that she resented the fact that she had to do it when she didn't want to. She says that every night when we go to bed she feels pressured for sex whether I ask for it or not. 

From my perspective, she has made some sporadiac efforts in that department but she says she is not comfortable initiating it. And at other times she has said that doesn't want it from me in the first place so that makes me not want to ask either. Like I said, I can ask for it and maybe get something, but then she is going to say she did it when she didn't want to and she resents that. 

I know that makes me sound like kind of a pu**y but I am hurting here and dealing with a lot of feelings related to her cheating.

If I had to say, I'd say the level of effort was not equal, although I do understand that it's probably easier to change my behavior regarding helping with the children and planning things to do than it is for her to start feeling like having sex with me.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

TheGoodFight said:


> Well, FWTW on that subject. She says that she knows that she no longer loves him. I asked her why, and she said because she doesn't care if his wife finds out anymore. Now she is only thinking of herself, not him.


Then it is time to follow up with the OMW and share the love!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Ouch. Sorry to read of your situation. It sucks, no doubt about it.



TheGoodFight said:


> I hate working out with weights though.


That's because working out is tied up with your marriage issues. Do it for yourself.



TheGoodFight said:


> The MC pointed out that I had left out some things from my original post. I left out what got us to this point in our relationship where my wife felt comfortable stepping outside of the marriage.
> 
> So here is the rest of the story as I currently understand it.
> 
> ...


I'm yet to read anything on these forums where a MC was actually helpful. I'm sure it's out there, but so far they have all sided with the women who were at fault and offered marriage-destroying advice. Basically, your MC is justifying your wife's actions. That is probably part of the reason your wife does not feel accountable for her actions. She is being told that she was a victim of circumstance and your treatment of her. I hate to talk badly about anyone, but your wife sounds incredibly selfish. She does not need some MC defending her as well. It has nothing to do with "seeing from her perspective". She cheated. Regardless of how bored she felt, she needs to be very sorry for cheating before anything else gets to be discussed. She needs to show through her actions how sorry she is. There is nothing that can be done for your marriage until she does this first. And the longer it is before she does this, the less likely she is going to do it. 

You can't force it. She will either repent or not. You can't forgive her until she has repented, because that's not forgiveness; it's permission.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

I disagree on the MC at least in our case. She is VERY good and has probably saved our marriage at least once. I picked her out specifically because she specializes in cases of infidelity and has done so for > 30 years. I know it sounds like she is defending my wife just from what you have read here, but I can assure you she has not. 

I think she is just trying to get me to acknowledge the role I played in our relationship leading up to the affair. It's painful to talk about especially in light of the fact that my wife did the unjustifiable, but the "100% of the decision to have an affair is her fault" is not in question. She is only trying to get me to take ownership of 50% of the relationship issues. The session before last, I was placing all of that blame on my wife.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

TGF,
That is a mature, healthy and constructive approach. 


TE=TheGoodFight;584682]I disagree on the MC at least in our case. She is VERY good and has probably saved our marriage at least once. I picked her out specifically because she specializes in cases of infidelity and has done so for > 30 years. I know it sounds like she is defending my wife just from what you have read here, but I can assure you she has not. 

I think she is just trying to get me to acknowledge the role I played in our relationship leading up to the affair. It's painful to talk about especially in light of the fact that my wife did the unjustifiable, but the "100% of the decision to have an affair is her fault" is not in question. She is only trying to get me to take ownership of 50% of the relationship issues. The session before last, I was placing all of that blame on my wife.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## crossbar (Aug 25, 2011)

Ive read cases where BS get upset that there WW/WH would do things that they wouldn't do in the marriage. One case was a woman was cheating on her husband and she used to do very degrating things with the OM. Dirty talk, weird positions, blow jobs, anal sex...the whole gambit. When she was ask why she did all that stuff with the OM and not her BS, said something along the lines of....well, he's my husband, my best friend, the man I fell in love with and he would never treat me like a *****.

With the OM there was no love, it was just sex and we were using each other.

I don't know if that helps or not....


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

So the real question is, does the new information I posted change the previous advice given any?


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

crossbar said:


> Ive read cases where BS get upset that there WW/WH would do things that they wouldn't do in the marriage. One case was a woman was cheating on her husband and she used to do very degrating things with the OM. Dirty talk, weird positions, blow jobs, anal sex...the whole gambit. When she was ask why she did all that stuff with the OM and not her BS, said something along the lines of....well, he's my husband, my best friend, the man I fell in love with and he would never treat me like a *****.
> 
> With the OM there was no love, it was just sex and we were using each other.
> 
> I don't know if that helps or not....


Maybe. Although I don't think that's what it is in my case. It's not so much the things she did with him as it is that she WANTED to do it so much. It was the OM that refused sex with her not the other way around. She admittedly tried to have sex with him on more than one occasion and he turned her down citing "guilt". Their relationship was all oral sex. I've done much more with my wife than they ever did.


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## crossbar (Aug 25, 2011)

Well, your therapist was right on one aspect, you need to take ownership of 50% of the problems in the marriage. But, you ARE right...100% of the blame of the affair is on her. That was a choice she made. You didn't deserve to be cheated on because you didn't help out more around the house, or you asked for sex and she felt pressured. She made a choice to go outside the marriage. 

So, if your therapist is trying to get you to take the full blame for her affair, or trying to get you to see that YOUR actions or lack there of caused the affair, then no. Your therapist is wrong.

That's just my opinion.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

TheGoodFight said:


> If I had to say, I'd say the level of effort was not equal, although I do understand that it's probably easier to change my behavior regarding helping with the children and planning things to do than it is for her to start feeling like having sex with me.


I think that may be too convenient of an excuse. She could have sex and initiate it, even if she does not want it. Based on my reading of your past posts, she is not even doing that. Why not? Is she waiting for the perfect moment when she no longer feels resentment, shame, etc.? If so, be prepared to wait a long time.

In a good relationship, there will be times your wife will have sex with you, even if she does not really want to. My wife does, and I love her for it. She does not always want me, but does make an effort. In your case, your wife is not making an effort, but hiding behind her resentment. She even tries to turn you resentment around so that it is an equal resentment.

How long do you think you can wait under these circumstances? If she never gets back to wanting you in that way, can you live with it? What is she doing (not involving your actions, but her actions) to get back to wanting you?


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

TheGoodFight said:


> So the real question is, does the new information I posted change the previous advice given any?


Honestly I don't see that it does. If anything it sounds like a thing she is holding up as a justification while ignoring the more reasonable and adult solution she had to,choose from: talking to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

TheGoodFight said:


> So the real question is, does the new information I posted change the previous advice given any?


Well, yes.

It tells me that you are extremely susceptible to gaslighting, and that you are going to have a rough time of things. 

TheGoodFight, I have some great news for you. Your therapist is trying to get you to recognize that you caused 50% of the problems in the relationship. Congratulations! The therapist wants you to know that you are a normal husband! In marriages, virtually ALL husbands are responsible for 50% of the problems. You need to stop trying to claim credit for 100% of the problems, and settle for your fair share.

Then you can focus on, I dunno, maybe the 50% of the problems that your WIFE was responsible for. But, really, your time would be better spent discussing the 100% of the affair that was her fault. 

Look. You wanted more intimacy. Your wife wanted more intimacy, WITH SOME OTHER MAN. Your wife really likes you paying her bills. In exchange for your labor and efforts, she gives you the minimum amount of sex she can get away with.

The basic problem is that you would rather look at anything but the reality of the situation. So you fixate on the "50% of the problems you caused," because you think that if you can just work on those, which you have control over, then solving them will magically make your wife love you.

You're wrong.

But its your life to live, and you seem determined to wring the most misery and woe out of it that you can. If you act like a beta male in your marriage, you get treated like a beta male in your marriage.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

I think you're right. Thanks, that helps.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

A sexless marriage is no marriage. Your wife ruined herself. This is not your fault. Divorce her and move on.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

TheGoodFight said:


> So the real question is, does the new information I posted change the previous advice given any?


The marriage counselor hasn't saved the marriage. She's saved the status quo. Its all about validating your wife's feelings, but your wife already puts too much stock into her own feelings, and zero for yours - hence the affair. I'm sorry for sounding like an Alpha jerk, but has it occurred to you that if you want what she gave the AP, then maybe you have to be like the AP? Understanding how your actions contributed to her genuine need to have sex with another man is not getting you closer to anything but the status quo, with the addition of you working harder to be more beta. Do you really think that if you were just like her AP, a man that she couldn't get enough of, your MC would actually approve of you?

Analytically, while your wife is verbalizing the steps that led to the downfall of your marriage, your MC is making the connection that fixing these issues would inherently fix the marriage, and the sex life. But has your wife admitted to the therapist that even if you say nothing, she resents the fact that she perceives that you want sex? As a hint, I'd suggest that the alpha approach would be to remind the therapist that the two of you would not be here if your wife didn't resent the notion of having sex with her own husband, but was pretty fond of the notion with another guy.

The Alpha approach is to treat her as if she is worth going to counseling for AFTER she begins to realize how lucky she is to have a sexual relationship with you, given her cheating past. Now that she has quit her job, I think its time to start using the advantage. Treat her like she doesn't deserve a sexual relationship with you, and let her feel that you are in the process of moving on, and things will change.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

michzz said:


> Don't get hung up on the actual percentage of blame for problems in your marriage.
> 
> Some things are small, unimportant but get magnified by someone who is wanting irritant to justify the crap they are doing.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

TheGoodFight said:


> So the real question is, does the new information I posted change the previous advice given any?


 No it changes nothing. Nothing you did gave her a right to cheat on you. Yes you may not be perfect, but no one is. The fact that your MC thinks that it would make a difference bothers me. 

What your MC has done is allow your wife to blame shift to you (with reasons right out of the cheaters playbook) part of the responsibility for her cheating. It may not have been the intent of the MC, but the minute she told you to post your wife's side to this forum, she was in fact saying that your wife's side would make a difference to us in how we viewed her cheating. This blame shifting by your wife has allowed her not to be really remorseful. Without this remorse, you will not heal and she will cheat again. You say that your MC saved your marraige at least once and I disagree. Your marriage as it stands now is not saved, it just has not died yet. After years of denying you sex your wife cheated on you and is now denying you sex again. This is not sustainable in the long run. 

This whole conversation that you are having is wrong. She cheated on you and for many that is a deal killer right there. For you to be even considering staying in this marraige, she needs to be fully remorseful and willing to do the heavy lifting. She is not. Your marraige is dead and on artificial life support. The only thing keeping it alive is your unwillingness to accept this reality and pull the plug.

The title of this thread is "I want what she gave her AP". You have a right to want this. She did not give you this before the affair and she has told you that she will not give this to you after the affair. In "His Needs, Her Needs" the number one need of men is real and fulfilling sex. Although she gladly meet this need for the OM, she is not meeting this basic need for you and does not plan to.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

This makes it very clear for me. Again, thanks.


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## dymo (Jan 2, 2012)

She's not sexually attracted to you now. Was she ever sexually attracted to you at all? Based on what I see in this thread, it doesn't look like it.

If that is indeed the case, maybe it's best to call this marriage quits. It's hard to kindle something that was never there.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

dymo said:


> Was she ever sexually attracted to you at all?


At all? Yes.

I haven't given up on it yet. But from this thread I now have a better perspective and a clear path to follow for now.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

Another perspective - ignoring everything about your past, and assuming you were unattached, would you marry your wife today knowing how she feels about you? Would she marry you? You have hope because she professes to not care about someone else but does not indicate she cares about you (in a non-platonic way). How will you feel in 3 years, 8 years, 12 years, when she is still not over the hump about regaining the feelings she had for you.

Ignore statements and recreations of how she felt. Focus on actions. I do not believe that actions always speak louder, but for a cheater (the lowest form of liar), it is all there is until true trust is reestablished.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

SprucHub said:


> Another perspective - ignoring everything about your past, and assuming you were unattached, would you marry your wife today knowing how she feels about you? Would she marry you? You have hope because she professes to not care about someone else but does not indicate she cares about you (in a non-platonic way). How will you feel in 3 years, 8 years, 12 years, when she is still not over the hump about regaining the feelings she had for you.


I appreciate what you are trying to say here but this thread has been all about reality and getting me to see it. While it is an interesting exercise to play "what ifs", I think that kind of thinking just gets me off track. It's not reality.

The reality is that we are where we are. We can't go back in time. We ARE married, we DO have two children. WE must either fix this or separate. Those are the only two choices.

Fixing it takes time and risk. Separating and seeking new relationships also takes time and risk. 

I now understand what it means when people say the WS must do the "heavy lifting". They must because the BS can't do it for them. In a relationship, YOU can only fix things that YOU broke.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

TheGoodFight said:


> I now understand what it means when people say the WS must do the "heavy lifting". They must because the BS can't do it for them. *In a relationship, YOU can only fix things that YOU broke.*



That should really say:



> In a relationship, YOU can only *try to *fix things that YOU broke.


There is no guarantee that what a person breaks can be fixed. Your wife can try, but in the end, it may not be enough for you (or her). You need to reach a point where you are at peace with the idea that it may not be enough and the relationship may not survive. Not that you want that as a result, but that you recognize and accept it as a possibility.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

TheGoodFight said:


> I appreciate what you are trying to say here but this thread has been all about reality and getting me to see it. While it is an interesting exercise to play "what ifs", I think that kind of thinking just gets me off track. It's not reality.
> 
> The reality is that we are where we are. We can't go back in time. We ARE married, we DO have two children. WE must either fix this or separate. Those are the only two choices.
> 
> ...


Sorry to be unclear - I was not advising going back in time, but rather answering those questions today. Would you marry her today. That should inform whether you decide to reconcile. Would you allow one of your children to marry someone that treats them the way your wife treats you? I am trying to isolate the factors that should inform your decision - what is best for your family and you. I sacrifice extraordinarily for my children's happiness. I would not want them to repay that sacrifice by living unsatisfying adult lives. What about separating from your wife, but living together. This way, you can be friends and co-parents, but you will no longer feel the pressure of wanting and being rejected by her. No expectations of romance, just mutual obligations and friendship.


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## Zzyzx (Aug 24, 2011)

Get some divorce forms and conspicuously leave them lying around your desk. ... OK, hold off on that.

But you do need to understand the functional definition of insanity: doing the same thing over again and expecting different results from your wife. Ain't gonna happen, ever. Expecting her to change first? You need to understand and accept that won't happen without effort on your part. When it comes to change, you gotta go first!

So what does that effort look like? First, you must internalize the knowledge that you can never, ever control your wife, you can only control you, that's it. So don't bother working on changing her, work on yourself instead. You need less IC and more No More Nice Guy and more 180. Athol Kay's MMSL too while we're at it. And implement these. She needs the shock to her system that the different (and hopefully better) you will provide.

No guarantee of success, but sticking with the old whiney "I'm still so hurt, she needs to go first" mindset will get you and her into the divorce court for sure. Can't bring yourself to do it? Think about your kids and do it for them. They need their father, are you willing to work on yourself for them? Are you willing to make THE GOOD FIGHT about them?


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