# To newbies: Affairs, always a sign of unhappy marriages? Think again



## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

This goes out to the newbies who are looking for answers on why their spouses cheated on them. To the veterans, this is just a "preaching to the choir" so feel free to read no further.

So much emphasis has been put on the "unmet emotional needs" cause for an affair that it has become dogma like. It also often leads the BS (betrayed spouse) to easily believe in the blame shifting that his/her CS (cheating spouse) throws at him/her for having an affair(s). Remember this *BOTH spouses are responsible for the status of their marriage but the CS is solely responsible for choosing to have an affair. No one put a gun to his/her head and told him/her to have an affair with another person.* 

In many cases, the marriage is a healthy, happy one and the affair is the result of crossing marital boundaries (always the number one ingredient of all affairs) combined with the cheater's broken mindset. The following story is a case in point.



> I am married to my soulmate. I believe that whole-heartedly. We have been together since we were very young, and we have built a fantastic life and family together. Our sex is good, our communication is open, and we do not have any major problems - I am happy at home. I have always been the kind of person who thought that affairs only happen when you are unhappy at home. I looked down upon this kind of behavior, and I knew that I would never, NEVER even consider cheating on my husband. And now, here I am in the middle of a full flown affair.
> 
> A few months ago, I ran into a man that I went to high school with. We dated briefly as teenagers, but it was never serious. We haven't seen each other for nearly 20 years, so we started out just catching up about what has happened in our lives, what we do for a living, current family information, etc. It was so completely harmless. He is married too, and he seems to be happy with his home life. We continued the dialogue for a few weeks via phone and text messages. I continued to tell myself that it was harmless; it would not go any further than talking or texting. Besides, we are both married. Eventually, he brought up the possibility of sex, and I was adamantly opposed. But still, I continued the daily conversations with him. I even looked forward to them and couldn't wait for my phone to ring each day. Needless to say, I gave in, and we began a sexual affair. We have both been very open about what we want, and we both agree that our families are most important. I do not have any illusions of leaving my husband for him, and I would never want him to leave his wife. What we are doing is fun (a lot of fun, actually), but that is the extent of it. As silly as it sounds, I do not want anyone to be hurt by this; we both have children and spouses whom we love dearly.
> 
> ...


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## anonymouskitty (Jun 5, 2012)

This sounds a lot like it came directly out of my fWW's mouth, the OM was a person she knew, a former bf of her younger sister


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Yep. My fWH says "it was NOTHING you did. You could have walked on water. It was my own issues. My own ego. My own arrogance. "

Kind of unsettling b/c it means you have NO control ultimately. You can bust your A$$ to be a good and loving spouse and *if your spouse needs an ego boost- You could be screwed. Sad but true. *Your only hope is that he/she can learn to recognize this need in themselves and steer it in the right direction-toward YOU.

And OH GOD how I wish I could have actually responded to "for some reason I just want to continue this. For fun, for sex. Any advice" 

God- I would love to give her a peice of my mind. My advice GROW THE F UP!!!!


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

anonymouskitty said:


> This sounds a lot like it came directly out of my fWW's mouth, the OM was a person she knew, a former bf of her younger sister


Yes that is a common theme but that is where the similarities end as far as this woman's story and your FWW's story are concerned. 




Unhappy2011 said:


> Some people just have no real conscience when it comes to cheating.
> 
> I have a couple of male friends like that.
> 
> ...


Not just men. It seems that more and more married women want to give themselves "the freedom to explore" sexual experiences with men other than their husbands.

The woman in this story does not want to end her marriage or the OM's marriage. She acknowledges that the sex with her husband is good but in her own words "There's just something about this man that makes me want to continue the relationship. Just for fun, just for sex."


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## anonymouskitty (Jun 5, 2012)

Blame the media , the movies, the poets and all the others who romanticize relationships especially sordid affairs The deplorable book "bridges" is an example

I think we need to teach people the consequences of putting themselves above others rather than shaming them or glorifying affairs beyond what they are "FANTASIES"

But then again as Unhappy said, some people are born without a conscience , you just have to look out for those kinds


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Thank you for posting this. I agree 100%.

The irony is that I'm a loyal spouse who not only neglected the marriage but also actively damaged it by taking out my own selfish anger and frustration on my spouse with hurtful words and ways of handling everyday issues.

So even though I know I was responsible for the greater part of the vulnerability of our marriage, and I see that it led inexorably to the situation we are in, still I know that my husband had many other choices than to enter his emotional affair. He also never once chose to do the moral thing of ending it on his own; he had to get caught, and by pure luck at that.

But many, many, marriages did not involve the dynamic that was in my marriage; we fit the stereotype, but like all sterotypes, it is misguided to think that all or even most affairs resulted from our situation.

There is an enormous difference between legitimate marital needs and selfish wants. Marriage does require us to make certain choices that guard the marriage. It requires compromise and recognizing the needs of both. 

I hope one day the automatic assumption that people whose spouses cheat on them means that they somehow deserved it goes the way of ALL forms of disrespect and abuse. No one "deserves" mistreatment at the hands of another, not even upon provocation! That is why we value a society with the freedom to walk away and gain the protection of laws and police. This is always applied with violence--but how some people refuse to equate infidelity with other forms of abuse I will never understand. There are many tortures that are inflicted on a purely psychological basis that are FAR more damaging than a punch to the gut.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Yes it would be so easy to blame the current culture of the last couple of decades that glorified affairs, especially female infidelity, but in the end I believe that couples should not consider getting married without forcing themselves first to read plenty of sobering reality stories to teach them what are the things that can undermine a marriage IF they don't commit to being watchful of not crossing marital boundaries. Even if it doesn't save the majority them from falling into an affair, the small number that it does save would make it all worth it.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

I think cantthinkstraight(?) should read this post


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

morituri said:


> Yes it would be so easy to blame the current culture of the last couple of decades that glorified affairs, especially female infidelity, but in the end I believe that couples should not consider getting married without forcing themselves first to read plenty of sobering reality stories to teach them what are the things that can undermine a marriage IF they don't commit to being watchful of not crossing marital boundaries. Even if it doesn't save the majority them from falling into an affair, the small number that it does save would make it all worth it.


Mori I agree with all that you said with the exception of the "especially female infidelity". Our culture and the cultures of most populations around the world support the right of men to have extra marital partners. The DNA directive to "spread seed", the irrepressible need for variety, the refusal of the wife to do certain sex act that men need are some of the reasons accepted. . In the last mellenium our culture has glorified male sexuality and cheating. 

Now women are taking the same privileges and men are suffering the same pain that women have had to endure. It is not the media at all. I believe that woman are as vulnerable to extra marital affairs as men and always have been. Women become bored with the same old d!ck year after year too. Women look outside of the marriage for variety, fun and unmet needs as much as men, it appears.. 

Why is female cheating reaching parity with men?. Women no longer fear unwanted pregnancy, economic depravation. Being exposed to the male bragging about the fun of sexual variety, how can women resist? There are men who are still shocked when their wives cheat.

The hypocracy of negative reactions by men are still evident. Now men are being exposed to the same deception, humiliation, devaluing and objectification that woman have had to endure in silence. The reaction of men is fascinating to me. They don't suffer in silence, they rage and demonize women - s!ut, [email protected], and [email protected] sound farmiliar? When it is turned around and men get played, treated like d!cks on a stick and are just notches on a women purse straps, it suddenly becomes a moral and character issue. 

It is and always has been a character issue - for both men and women. When cheating was women's burden to bear, it was no biggie. Now that men are affected, it is the most serious assault on American values that has ever occured.

The hypocrisy is a study in the human ability to blind themselves to the obvious and to feel entitled. I believe that the realization that woman are more like men than we thought will blunt the glorification of male bad behavior. When men accept that women become bored with sex from the same man year after year, the male seed spreading will become a lack of control and character issues rather than a privilege. 

Men in relationships will be too busy tending to the bond not spreading that seed knowing that the little women it no longer trapped at home by economic circumstances. This is a transitional period and a certain amount of what i think is unreasonable anger and finger pointing is common. The anger and rage will dissapate and a better culture of fairness and respect for the bond between men and women may emerge. Or we will just contiue hurting each other. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anonymouskitty (Jun 5, 2012)

Sex is one of the ways that men express their love to women, most women still fail to understand that our need for sex has as much to do with them as it is to us, and when females tend to not be interested it can seriously damage a man's self esteem. I'm not condoning them having affairs of course 

But ultimately it comes down to individual beliefs and values

This is quickly becoming a sh*t stirrer thread


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

warlock07 said:


> I think cantthinkstraight(?) should read this post


Why?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jibril (May 23, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> Why?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Probably because the woman in the story sounds a bit like CantThinkStraight's wife. From what i've deduced reading his posts, she had no real issues with the marriage, and only pursued the OM for passionate, porn-star-esque sex.

Since CantThinkStraight's struggling with finding an adequate reason for his wife's infidelity, maybe reading the story in Moritori's first post will help him? I dunno.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Catherine,

I invite you to read *Sex differences and similarities in emotional and sexual infidelity* by Beth Babin from Arizona State University and Kathryn Dindia from the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee.



> Participants overwhelmingly disapproved of infidelity (men rated infidelity as more acceptable than women), despite the fact that a large percentage of both men and women reported engaging in infidelity, *and both sexes reported that it was more acceptable for their own sex to commit infidelity than the opposite sex.*


It seems that when it comes to hypocrisy, men do not have a monopoly on it.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Why?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




He is breaking his head trying to find out a reason on why his wife cheated. Like the woman in the post, she does not really need a reason. Maybe she cheated because she realized that she could.


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

> I am married to my soulmate. I believe that whole-heartedly. We have been together since we were very young, and we have built a fantastic life and family together. Our sex is good, our communication is open, and we do not have any major problems - I am happy at home. I have always been the kind of person who thought that affairs only happen when you are unhappy at home. I looked down upon this kind of behavior, and I knew that I would never, NEVER even consider cheating on my husband. And now, here I am in the middle of a full flown affair.
> 
> A few months ago, I ran into a man that I went to high school with. We dated briefly as teenagers, but it was never serious. We haven't seen each other for nearly 20 years, so we started out just catching up about what has happened in our lives, what we do for a living, current family information, etc. It was so completely harmless. He is married too, and he seems to be happy with his home life. We continued the dialogue for a few weeks via phone and text messages. I continued to tell myself that it was harmless; it would not go any further than talking or texting. Besides, we are both married. Eventually, he brought up the possibility of sex, and I was adamantly opposed. But still, I continued the daily conversations with him. I even looked forward to them and couldn't wait for my phone to ring each day. Needless to say, I gave in, and we began a sexual affair. We have both been very open about what we want, and we both agree that our families are most important. I do not have any illusions of leaving my husband for him, and I would never want him to leave his wife. What we are doing is fun (a lot of fun, actually), but that is the extent of it. As silly as it sounds, I do not want anyone to be hurt by this; we both have children and spouses whom we love dearly.
> 
> ...


Bolded part......Do I need to say more ?


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## cantthinkstraight (May 6, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> I think cantthinkstraight(?) should read this post


Already have.... three times.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

SweetAndSour said:


> Bolded part......Do I need to say more ?


Why? Because she can't have cake and eat it to?


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## cantthinkstraight (May 6, 2012)

Jibril said:


> Probably because the woman in the story sounds a bit like CantThinkStraight's wife. From what i've deduced reading his posts, she had no real issues with the marriage, and only pursued the OM for passionate, porn-star-esque sex.
> 
> Since CantThinkStraight's struggling with finding an adequate reason for his wife's infidelity, maybe reading the story in Moritori's first post will help him? I dunno.


My WW did have issues with our marriage... issues that
she never disclosed to me in a proper way.
I never got "the talk". 

The difference between my WW and the woman in the story is that, in some sick way... 
I think my WW *wanted* to get caught. 

She told me she wanted to end it with him and that she was 
"done" a couple weeks before DDay occurred... but the evidence suggests the opposite.

I think she was selfishly starving for attention, crying out and waiting for someone to 
rescue her from the mess that she had created for herself....
JUST like when her dad would always come to save the day for her so many times in the past.

She once told me "I did it to hurt myself, I did it to hurt you and to shake things up."

Shake things up? When did that ever mean ruin lives?


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

The power of attention is extremely intoxicating for both men and women. Women in particular are very susceptible to body image issues that lead them to question their attractiveness as women, including the ones who would have no trouble finding a sex partner for the night. I don't know if your wife is this kind of woman but the outside validation she received from the OM through his attention efforts towards her may have intoxicated her. BTW the woman in the story, also wrote that while she enjoyed the sex with the OM, it was more the attention from the OM that she relished the most. Further vindicating my belief that attention can be as addicting as crack cocaine to many married women.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

morituri said:


> Catherine,
> 
> I invite you to read *Sex differences and similarities in emotional and sexual infidelity* by Beth Babin from Arizona State University and Kathryn Dindia from the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee.
> 
> It seems that when it comes to hypocrisy, men do not have a monopoly on it.


I don't know about research on 700 Uni students but I wish someone would do an analysis of TAM posts by the thousands of men and women. Also look at the real world. Women are viciously castigated by male posters for cheating on their LH. 

There was a thread by a male poster pointing that out. When cheating men post, they are often asked about sexual frequency as if that were a justification for cheating. Is that not hypocritacal. 

In fact, when women post about not liking sex acts, they are frequently warned that their husbands will cheat. However when men posts about their anoyence with their wife's need for an emotional connection to have sex, the men are not warned that she may cheat. Women are instead demonized. Is that not hypocritical? 

. But I supposed if you think that men are justified to cheat because sex is the most important need in marriage and women are not because their need for an emotional connection is trivial, then you might not see the hypocrisy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anonymouskitty (Jun 5, 2012)

Catherine, honey. Cheaters may cheat but what follows is utter and complete destruction, doesn't matter if they've got vajays or d*cks


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> But I supposed if you think that men are justified to cheat because sex is the most important need in marriage and women are not because their need for an emotional connection is trivial, then you might not see the hypocrisy.


Nobody, man or woman, is justified in cheating. It just irks some of us that when the media glorifies female infidelity while still excoriating male infidelity. That's all.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

anonymouskitty said:


> Catherine, honey. Cheaters may cheat but what follows is utter and complete destruction, doesn't matter if they've got vajays or d*cks


I agree. 

It annoys me that cheating by women is seen as worse than cheating by men is still a pervasive notion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

This may be off topic. 

One striking thing I notice about LM is frequently thier first reaction to their wife's cheating is to blame themselves for something that that they did not do. In contrast women are emotionally distraught. LM become consumed with changing themselves into a man their wives can love. I am not saying that men are just as distressed as woman. Their expression of the distress is action. 

Anyone else notice that? Why do you reaction to blame themselves
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anonymouskitty (Jun 5, 2012)

Its our need to have things under control

I can tell you from personal experience that the first questions we ask ourselves are "where did we go wrong?" "Does this guy have a bigger d*ck?" "Am I not giving her enough in bed?" and then we start becoming puppy dogs

Or some of us could also turn into evil scheming bastards and lay out concrete plans to actually get the situation back in control


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

LM?


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Loving Man?


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## anonymouskitty (Jun 5, 2012)

I think she means BS


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> I don't know about research on 700 Uni students but I wish someone would do an analysis of TAM posts by the thousands of men and women. Also look at the real world. Women are viciously castigated by male posters for cheating on their LH.
> 
> There was a thread by a male poster pointing that out. When cheating men post, they are often asked about sexual frequency as if that were a justification for cheating. Is that not hypocritacal.
> 
> ...


Links. The basis of the argument is a false premise.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

cantthinkstraight said:


> My WW did have issues with our marriage... issues that
> she never disclosed to me in a proper way.
> I never got "the talk".
> 
> ...



I don't buy it. If she made this observation a few years down the line when both of you are sufficiently detached from the incident, maybe I would. Now, I wouldn't trust her perspective. It is self preservation now. She is trying to play the typical Damsel in distress role that men are usually suckered into.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Mori I agree with all that you said with the exception of the "especially female infidelity". Our culture and the cultures of most populations around the world support the right of men to have extra marital partners. The DNA directive to "spread seed", the irrepressible need for variety, the refusal of the wife to do certain sex act that men need are some of the reasons accepted. . In the last mellenium our culture has glorified male sexuality and cheating.
> 
> Now women are taking the same privileges and men are suffering the same pain that women have had to endure. It is not the media at all. I believe that woman are as vulnerable to extra marital affairs as men and always have been. Women become bored with the same old d!ck year after year too. Women look outside of the marriage for variety, fun and unmet needs as much as men, it appears..
> 
> ...


As usual, I find your hatred of men gets in the way of you giving good advice. This thread didn't delve into men vs. women until you took it there. It was about people being selfish.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

larry.gray said:


> As usual, I find your hatred of men gets in the way of you giving good advice. This thread didn't delve into men vs. women until you took it there. It was about people being selfish.


I disagree. Catherine does have a valid point and it has nothing to do with hatred of men. 

My point is that today, the media has treated female infidelity with kid's gloves while still excoriating male infidelity (as it should). In the end, both types of iinfidelity should be equally excoriated.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

That's not what she said though. She said the opposite. 

"Our culture and the cultures of most populations around the world support the right of men to have extra marital partners"

B.S.

I agree with you, but not what she said.


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## anonymouskitty (Jun 5, 2012)

Man, she's partly right because there are some cultures out there where they remove the female clitoris to prevent them from enjoying sex


And there's also the classic adage "Cheating Men are dogs, Oh she cheated? her needs were not being met"

So we all have our own rationalization hamsters kicking in


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Newbies, please read *http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/49544-new-here-cheater.html#post851347* and *http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/49415-i-need-help-after-my-own-affair.html#post847745* as further examples of how a spouse can easily fall into an affair (from a ONS to a 10 month full blown affair) when he/she breaks marital boundaries. In both cases, the cheating spouse had apparently no serious marital issues with his/her betrayed spouse. If there is a good sign in both stories is that the cheating spouses came clean and are remorseful.


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## Anubis (Jul 12, 2011)

morituri said:


> Not just men. It seems that more and more married women want to give themselves "the freedom to explore" sexual experiences with men other than their husbands.
> 
> The woman in this story does not want to end her marriage or the OM's marriage. She acknowledges that the sex with her husband is good but in her own words "There's just something about this man that makes me want to continue the relationship. Just for fun, just for sex."


There's also the cake eating aspect. More women seem to want to keep the husband around to pay for her to enjoy the strange, then take their husbands to the cleaners in family court when he gets fed up, than the other way around. Both the courts & laws, and the primary earner demographics support the inequality, and cheaters have already shown they don't care if they exploit their partners unfaily - they are only really concerned with what *they* are getting. 

/damn triggers
//ex-w trying again to use the the kids to blackmail me for more $$$


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

morituri said:


> Nobody, man or woman, is justified in cheating. It just irks some of us that when the media glorifies female infidelity while still excoriating male infidelity. That's all.


My reaction was to one statement in Mori's post - media sympathy to female infidelity. At first I thought Mori was wrong. But upon thinking about the abundance of Oprah type shows, he may be right at lest in the broadcast media. . I was thinking of the print media. I have read many articles on advice to women on how to please their man. 

There is invariably the suble or overt warning "he will get it elsewhare", a play on the fear of every married woman. I have never read "she will get it elsewhere" reference in any media venue.. I see the former statement as condoning cheating by men at lest in the print media. 

I may have gone off on a tangent with the rest of my other posts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

larry.gray said:


> As usual, I find your hatred of men gets in the way of you giving good advice. This thread didn't delve into men vs. women until you took it there. It was about people being selfish.


I wasn't giving any advice so am i allowed to express my hatered of men? When I post advice i assure you that I manage, quite effectively I think, to keep it in check. 

Never say as usual Larry. You don't know what anyone usually does. People are much too complicated to be firgured out by one peice of writing. Of course if they are simpletons maybe, but i am not a simple person. You might remember that in your relationships. Black and white thinking simply kills any communication. Communication is the hallmark of relationships personal and virtual. .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> There is invariably the suble or overt warning "he will get it elsewhare", a play on the fear of every married woman. I have never read "she will get it elsewhere" reference in any media venue.. I see the former statement as condoning cheating by men at lest in the print media.


I don't think you're looking too close if you don't see the equivalent advice. It's not that if you don't please her sexually, she'll leave or cheat, it is that if you don't meet her emotional needs. Women generally don't leave for a lack of sex, but many men will. That makes it good advice. It may not be "fair" to women, but then again we all lose when we start keeping a scorecard about men vs. women.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> I wasn't giving any advice so am i allowed to express my hatered of men? When I post advice i assure you that I manage, quite effectively I think, to keep it in check.
> 
> Never say as usual Larry. You don't know what anyone usually does. People are much too complicated to be firgured out by one peice of writing. Of course if they are simpletons maybe, but i am not a simple person. You might remember that in your relationships. Black and white thinking simply kills any communication. Communication is the hallmark of relationships personal and virtual. .


I'm saying usual in the context of your posting as a whole. You come off as a misandrist to me. If a guy posts misoganist comments here, both genders will line up to bash them. 

How's that for gender inequality?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

larry.gray said:


> I don't think you're looking too close if you don't see the equivalent advice. It's not that if you don't please her sexually, she'll leave or cheat, it is that if you don't meet her emotional needs. Women generally don't leave for a lack of sex, but many men will. That makes it good advice. It may not be "fair" to women, but then again we all lose when we start keeping a scorecard about men vs. women.


Thank you. No wonder you think I am a misandrist. How dare I speak about male entitlement to cheat. Woman initiate divorce 3 more frequently than men, the prevalence of sex starved marriages is higher than ever and female infedelity is on par with men. He will get it elsewhere is not so attractive when you need to consider that she will get it elsewhere too. Unfortunately, cheating entitlement seems to have infected women too. 

Thems the fact. 

The fear of cheating men seems to have dissipated. It is does not seem to be making women have sex or stay in marriages with cheaters or when unhappy. 

My scorecard tallies about equal for men and women. There is no longer any unfairness. Women are like men now. They may cheat and leave for different reasons but the result is the same. 

The state of the relationship between men and women is changing. There is hope that since the problems are affecting both genders equally now, both genders will be motivated to make changes for the better. 

Sorry for the hijack Mori, I will shut up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Sorry for the hijack Mori, I will shut up.


No worries Cath.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Thank you. No wonder you think I am a misandrist.


You miss it altogether.



Catherine602 said:


> How dare I speak about male entitlement to cheat.


What is this "entitlement" you speak of? You must be in different circles than I am. Cheaters are not treated nice by either gender in the circles I'm in, regardless of the gender of the cheater. Betrayed spouses are supported, not blamed. Again without regard to the gender of the cheater.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Ugh, just when I finally decide to bristle at your posts, you go and do this:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/49512-do-i-have-right-hot-sex-life-2.html#post851004

Good job.... keep going with her.


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## carpenoctem (Jul 4, 2012)

Link, please, if this story is in this forum. tks.


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