# VAR in friend's car



## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

As part of my regular check-up of my fWW, I sometimes place a voice activated recorder in her car for a day or 2, then retrieve and review. I do this a couple times a year, in addition to other things as part of R. She knows and agrees that I can check anything that I wish, but she doesn't specifically know my methods. So far no concerns.

She has a day trip planned with her girlfriend this weekend. At first I thought they would be taking my W's car, but now I have been informed they will be taking the friends car.

Should I try to plant the VAR in the friend's car? She is driving here tonight, and will stay over until they leave tomorrow, so there is an opportunity to plant the device. The friend also has to come back here to drop off my W on the return, so I could retrieve then. But is the risk worth it? The purpose of the trip is to visit grandkids a few hours away.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

It's one thing to spy on your wife, but very different to spy on a third party. If you do, and it's discovered, you could be facing felony charges, depending on where you live. Yes, it would be an ideal situation to learn something, as they will probably talk, but the risks and ethics should be considered carefully.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I wouldn't do that. It's crazy. You have the right to violate your wife's "privacy", but not the friend's. Her friend could sue your ass off for doing that if it was found.
JMO


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

NO! Bad idea...


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

MAJDEATH said:


> As part of my regular check-up of my fWW, I sometimes place a voice activated recorder in her car for a day or 2, then retrieve and review. I do this a couple times a year, in addition to other things as part of R. She knows and agrees that I can check anything that I wish, but she doesn't specifically know my methods. So far no concerns.
> 
> She has a day trip planned with her girlfriend this weekend. At first I thought they would be taking my W's car, but now I have been informed they will be taking the friends car.
> 
> Should I try to plant the VAR in the friend's car? She is driving here tonight, and will stay over until they leave tomorrow, so there is an opportunity to plant the device. The friend also has to come back here to drop off my W on the return, so I could retrieve then. But is the risk worth it? The purpose of the trip is to visit grandkids a few hours away.


*Hell no, don't put it in her friends car! 

Her friend and her family could literally sue your a$$ off!*


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

You have no right to put something like that in a car you don't own. You could get sued if found out.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Would it make a difference to know this same friend was involved with indiscretions from 15 yrs ago?


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

MAJDEATH said:


> Would it make a difference to know this same friend was involved with indiscretions from 15 yrs ago?


I don't believe the judge would care.


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## satphil (Feb 13, 2017)

Its not your car so stay out of it. 15 years and you are still tracking your wife, seriously is that way of living together worth it.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Majdeath....birds of a feather? 
I am with the others on this, if there is way to place it in her hand bag without her knowing that it is there is one thing, but no way touch someone else's property. If you knew about the indiscretions of the other person why as part of this reconciliation is she going with this person?


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## Ckone1800 (Jul 13, 2015)

MAJDEATH said:


> Would it make a difference to know this same friend was involved with indiscretions from 15 yrs ago?




Why is she still a friend?

What would you do if you discovered further indiscretions? If you mean to continue what you've been doing, what's the point? Pain shopping?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

MAJDEATH said:


> Would it make a difference to know this same friend was involved with indiscretions from 15 yrs ago?


No.


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## Yag-Kosha (Sep 8, 2016)

I think you should follow the car with a parabolic microphone or maybe rent a helicopter with a telescope to watch as well.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Yag-Kosha said:


> I think you should follow the car with a parabolic microphone or maybe rent a helicopter with a telescope to watch as well.


If you do anything, do this.

Actually, I'm sorry you feel like you have to keep tabs on her after so many years. I'm beginning to wonder if @sokillme is right after all, regarding people not R'ing because of the years of aftermath, because I can actually empathize with you.


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## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

Why not a more discrete VAR like one disguised as a pen tucked into her handbag?


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Some of you REALLY need to read the main thread. There is a very weird mutual fault and guilt dynamic going on in this marriage. 


No, the car is not yours and you both decided this person shouldn't be removed from your life. Checking on your wife occasionally, why you continue to this level makes my head hurt, I get. Using a VAR and wanting to plant it in another person's car is too ridiculous for me.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

MAJDEATH said:


> Would it make a difference to know this same friend was involved with indiscretions from 15 yrs ago?


Why was this person not jettisoned from your lives 15 years ago?

ETA... nevermind.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

No, it doesn't make a difference.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Some of you REALLY need to read the main thread. There is a very weird mutual fault and guilt dynamic going on in this marriage.
> 
> 
> No, the car is not yours and you both decided this person shouldn't be removed from your life. Checking on your wife occasionally, why you continue to this level makes my head hurt, I get. Using a VAR and wanting to plant it in another person's car is too ridiculous for me.


There absolutely is a very weird mutual fault and guilt dynamic going on that consistently gets underplayed in these threads.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Hide a VAR somewhere in your wife's purse.Maybe in an extra pocket or in the lining. DO NOT put it in her friend's car. Why are you doing this to yourself?It doesn't appear you will act on any nefarious evidence you get anyway.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Hide a VAR somewhere in your wife's purse.Maybe in an extra pocket or in the lining. DO NOT put it in her friend's car. Why are you doing this to yourself?It doesn't appear you will act on any nefarious evidence you get anyway.


Whether it's in the purse or in the car proper he'd still be recording the friend. She, and her lawyer, may take exception to that.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

This woman has really got you by.....

The lovemaking must be magical to live like this. 

Majdeath, you do know there's other women out there, right? It's been years. She's up to the same old tricks with the same old friends.

VAR not needed to hear the screams of disrespect her actions are saying to you.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Malaise said:


> Whether it's in the purse or in the car proper he'd still be recording the friend. She, and her lawyer, may take exception to that.


 True , but it's not in the friend's property,it's on his wife's person. Also makes planting and retrieval much easier. All of this is neither here nor there as using a var outside of your presence and participation in the recorded conversation is illegal in most if not all places.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

I appreciate the replies. I should have prefaced this thread by stating that I really didn't want to address any underlying R issues. Mostly the legal/moral issues with placing a VAR in a non-traditional location. I didn't think about a purse or handbag TBH.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

On this, I am going against the Crimsom faced Tide.

Knowing your wife's past...
Knowing your wife's past always continues into the future un-abating. Following a feverish drumbeat that only she can hear, I say VAR.

VARnish and preserve her unending trespasses. Listen to her lustful pounding heart speak truth, yet once more. 

This, your Powerless Point Presentation cannot drive you more "Mad", nay, your head case is full forward.


Besides, I would like to countermand @Satya once. This being a Blue Moon posting.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

WTH


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Again


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

I posted this while over the Atlantic...

Using telekinesis!

My tongue stutter not....

My mind? Quadruple same-same postings?

OK. Sorry>


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## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

It's just skin. Move on.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> If you do anything, do this.
> 
> I'm beginning to wonder if @sokillme is right after all, regarding people not R'ing because of the years of aftermath, because I can actually empathize with you.


Reconciliation = The triumph of hope through the concealment of reality.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Hide a VAR somewhere in your wife's purse.Maybe in an extra pocket or in the lining. DO NOT put it in her friend's car. Why are you doing this to yourself?*It doesn't appear you will act on any nefarious evidence you get anyway.*


What makes you think this? Are you a member of the anti-R (anti-reconciliation) crowd?


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## Anthony Wellers (Jul 29, 2017)

Satya said:


> You have no right to put something like that in a car you don't own. You could get sued if found out.


Cleaning the VAR to remove any prints and making sure he uses gloves when placing it could provide plausible deniability, but still not a good idea.

Maybe shop around for more discreet gadgets (ones that look like pens or flash drives...even air freshener) if he's willing to fork out a bit for them.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

You are the one that chose to R, enjoy not knowing the truth. Still friends with a girl she did things with. Hope they have fun with the grandchildren.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Do not put anything in your wife's purse. Women tend to know exactly what is in their purse. I would know immediately if something foreign was in my bag. It is a really horrible idea to put a VAR in her friend's car. If my friend's husband did that to me, I would go totally nuclear.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

If I felt I had to do anything to this level for the marriage to continue I would jut get divorced. I can't see why this relationship would be worth it anymore.

This is why IMO reconciliation is a farce, the relationship is never the same and never will be, trust is irrevocably broken.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

If you do the VAR in the car, don't get caught. I can understand why you're wanting to birddog her. Regardless of the promises, if they do it once, you're fooling yourself if you think they are beyond doing it again. What seems to be missing is your plan if she does. If you are not going to act, as opposed to merely confront with, "I'm disappointed; don't do it anymore" its nothing but an exercise in futility.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

So you know this friend was supportive of your wife's affair (affairs?) years ago and through mutual agreement they are allowed to remain in an active friendship? Is this correct?

Even with this bugging another person's property is illegal. If caught, it would mean the friend would be offering your wife even more help and encouragement to cheat.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

lucy999 said:


> Do not put anything in your wife's purse. Women tend to know exactly what is in their purse. I would know immediately if something foreign was in my bag. It is a really horrible idea to put a VAR in her friend's car. *If my friend's husband did that to me, I would go totally nuclear.*


Maybe that is the price to pay for her encouragement of relationships outside of marriage so many years ago. If you aren't doing anything wrong, why should it be a problem? And btw, the friend's H is both aware and supportive of any surveillance techniques when these 2 are together, however rare that is. We both know what they are capable of from the past, but give them the benefit of the doubt that they currently (and have for a long time now) maintain proper boundaries. Trust, but verify.

I know many of you will say "that's no way to live", and that is what you choose for your own reasons. I have chosen this path for my reasons (which would take too long to explain) and I will continue along the journey.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

MAJDEATH said:


> What makes you think this? Are you a member of the anti-R (anti-reconciliation) crowd?


 I'm a member of the "consequences where deserved" crowd, and I don't see your wife having any from your track record thus far. I support you in whatever decision you make , but you seem to keep pain shopping after you've made your decisions. With all the boundaries your wife has shattered, I'd have a very hard time reconciling.


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## EunuchMonk (Jan 3, 2016)

Can you afford a private investigator? Seems better than the VAR in friend's car idea. And it'll be hard for a woman, away on a trip, to not notice foreign articles in her bag. They usually go through it, IME, a couple times a day when on pleasure trips... uh, that came out wrong... or did it?


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

No. You do not know who or what will be in that car who may find the VAR. You'd have to KNOW where you could attach it... You'd need a good 10 minutes. And of course, you'd need a good excuse to be in the car to retrieve it.

Problem with the pen purse VAR - they are very small. Limited battery life, quality. And when spotted "Whose pen is this?" situation.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

MAJDEATH said:


> Maybe that is the price to pay for her encouragement of relationships outside of marriage so many years ago. If you aren't doing anything wrong, why should it be a problem? And btw, the friend's H is both aware and supportive of any surveillance techniques when these 2 are together, however rare that is. We both know what they are capable of from the past, but give them the benefit of the doubt that they currently (and have for a long time now) maintain proper boundaries. Trust, but verify.
> 
> I know many of you will say "that's no way to live", and that is what you choose for your own reasons. I have chosen this path for my reasons (which would take too long to explain) and I will continue along the journey.


have your friends husband plant the var.

then its on him. is the car in your friends name or his wife's name?

I was under the impression that you could not use any taped recorded info in a court of law. not sure what the law is just recording someone in a private space like someone car.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Given your history with your wife, I don't get how you could possibly think that she's _not_ cheating.

To answer your question, though -- no.

Unless her husband is cool with it.


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

What about a good old-fashioned chastity belt?

BTW, you have not reconciled. If you had you wouldn't be playing investigator. You have a relationship of mistrust, anxiety and low-level hostility. That's a far cry from the definition of reconcile. Do as you like but at least be honest with yourself.

The friend's involvement in past misdeeds has no bearing on her right to privacy. Your emotions won't make for much of an argument in front of a judge.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

MAJDEATH said:


> And btw, the friend's H is both aware and supportive of any surveillance techniques when these 2 are together, however rare that is. We both know what they are capable of from the past, but give them the benefit of the doubt that they currently (and have for a long time now) maintain proper boundaries. Trust, but verify.


Okay, then go the different route... Use a clean VAR or buy a new one and give it to the friend's Husband to install it in her car. You both will play back the audio together.
He knows HER car, and he wouldn't have to explain any reason to be in the car. 
"I'm checking the fluids for the trip dear, so I feel better that the car is in good running order".


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

in pa you have to have one party knowledge of the recording and being as you have an agreement with your wife that you might do this from time to time because of her indiscretions in the past you might be able to say you had her permission.

that might be a stretch. 

for someone to sue you you usually have to prove damages were incurred.

I'm not a lawyer so maybe best to run this past a lawyer to see where you stand.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Instead of all of this indignation over your wife's serial infidelity, wouldn't it be easier for you to tell your wife you don't mind her infidelity? Likewise in the same vain rather than trying to creepily spy on your wife's friend, wouldn't it be easier for you to just ask your wife to record her own affair activity to share with you afterwards.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

I appreciate the comments and advice. But I think there is some confusion. Several keep mentioning legality, courtrooms, and judges. The purpose of capturing any deceitful information is not to play it in court, it is for my piece of mind. It wouldn't matter in a no-fault state anyway.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Personal said:


> Instead of all of this indignation over your wife's serial infidelity, wouldn't it be easier for you to tell your wife you don't mind her infidelity? Likewise in the same vain rather than trying to creepily spy on your wife's friend, wouldn't it be easier for you to just ask your wife to record her own affair activity to share with you afterwards.


I have no idea what you are talking about.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

MAJDEATH said:


> I appreciate the comments and advice. But I think there is some confusion. Several keep mentioning legality, courtrooms, and judges. The purpose of capturing any deceitful information is not to play it in court, it is for my piece of mind. It wouldn't matter in a no-fault state anyway.



However, @MAJDEATH, if you are not a party to the recorded conversation, then the two people who ARE parties to the conversation would have reason to pursue every legal remedy at their disposal for recording them without their consent. So what we are trying to tell you is that if you choose to put a VAR in the friend's car, then you are opening yourself up to legal consequences. 

Here is a link to the electronic surveillance laws by state: https://www.pinow.com/resources/audio-surveillance-laws-by-state

The state of PA is a TWO-PARTY consent state. That means that BOTH PEOPLE in the recording have to give their consent in order for it to be legally recorded. And here is a quote of PA 18 Pa. Cons. Stat Ann. §5704(4): "It shall not be unlawful and no prior court approval shall be required under this chapter for:
(4) A person, to intercept a wire, electronic or oral communication, where *all parties to the communication have given prior consent* to such interception."

In a ONE-PARTY consent state, if you and I were talking and I gave me consent to record but did not tell you, it would still be legal because I count as one of the parties in the convo. If I recorded you and someone else talking, and neither of you gave consent, then my actions would be illegal and if you found out you could have me arrested, charged, and brought before a judge for punishment. 

In a TWO-PARTY consent state (which is your kind of state), if you and I were talking, I may give my consent, but for it to be a legal recording, you would also have to give your consent--otherwise the recording would be illegal and if you found out you could have me arrested, charged, and brought before a judge for punishment. 

Thus this is simple: if you plant the VAR with the intent to record your wife and her friend, and you do not have the express consent of both your wife and her friend, then you are breaking the law...even if it's in your car or the friend's husband knows about it! 

This is also why, when a disloyal spouse is trying to build a domestic abuse type accusation, I recommend to the betrayed spouse to keep either a VAR or their cell phone on record AT ALL TIMES, hold it out in front of them and say "I am recording this conversation and if you respond, you are giving your consent to be recorded. If you do not want to be recorded, then all you need to do is not respond".... and then go about your business recording that you picked up the kids or whatever without incident or without you being abusive. They can't accuse abuse if you record every interaction. 

So @MAJDEATH it's up to you. You now know that in your state it is illegal for you to record your wife and her friend without their express consent to do so. You need BOTH. So you can choose to do what everyone is telling you could result in legal consequences and ignore us and do what you want anyway....or you can listen to those of us who are trying to give you wise counsel and recommend that this particular time it's not wise to do this! 

I'll be honest with you--I have not observed you ever listening to wise counsel so I'm not overly optimistic you won't just do what you want to do anyway, but I've done my part--I told you. Now it's up to you to decide if you'll liisten or not.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Affaircare said:


> However, @MAJDEATH, if you are not a party to the recorded conversation, then the two people who ARE parties to the conversation would have reason to pursue every legal remedy at their disposal for recording them without their consent. So what we are trying to tell you is that if you choose to put a VAR in the friend's car, then you are opening yourself up to legal consequences.
> 
> Here is a link to the electronic surveillance laws by state: https://www.pinow.com/resources/audio-surveillance-laws-by-state
> 
> ...


Once again, thanks for the detailed explanation. I am a former federal investigator and am well trained in capturing information to be used as evidence in legal proceedings. But once again my point is lost on you as well. I want to emphasize the following: I don't plan to reveal my sources of information, nor do I plan to tell her or anyone else what I discover. It is for my knowledge only and I will adjust my actions based on what I find, without revealing what I know or how I know it. So why would she or anyone else try to bring legal proceedings against me? Even if they found a recorder that doesn't necessarily connect to me.

And in this modern age, the importance of recording interactions with people in everyday life (for self-defense) are now mainstream. Have you seen the videos from protesters in Charlottesville, WV or the most recent video/audio of the nurse being arrested by LE in Colorado. Do you think the people who recorded that one are gonna be charged with anything - No. I have recorded interactions with LE, C-level staff from my company, medical professionals, school officials, politicians, etc. None were the wiser and none have ever tried to sue me.

Back to the original topic - I decided not to try to plant a recording device in the friend's car. Only because it would be too difficult to time the install and retrieval when being unobserved. It's been a year since she last spent time with this friend so I don't want to jump to any conclusions just yet. They will be back tomorrow.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

MAJDEATH said:


> Once again, thanks for the detailed explanation.* I am a former federal investigator and am well trained in capturing information to be used as evidence in legal proceedings.*


If you are a former federal investigator then you would be able to look up the laws in your state and determine if your behavior is legal or illegal in your state. If you want to choose to pursue illegal behavior, then that is your choice. I personally prefer to act in accordance with the laws of the state and/or country unless and until they go against moral principles. I can't "make" you act legally. 



> ...But once again my point is lost on you as well. I want to emphasize the following: I don't plan to reveal my sources of information, nor do I plan to tell her or anyone else what I discover. It is for my knowledge only and I will adjust my actions based on what I find, without revealing what I know or how I know it. So why would she or anyone else try to bring legal proceedings against me? Even if they found a recorder that doesn't necessarily connect to me.


No your intent is not "lost on me." I get it. You intend to record your wife and her friend in the friend's car for your own surveillance purposes (aka "... to hear if your wife is in a current affair ... "). But MY message is lost on you! Doing that is NOT LEGAL. It may not be easy for them to figure out who did it or how it got there, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. Let's say you buy XYZ brand VAR, and it runs out of battery and makes a noise. They find the VAR. They reason "there's only a few places in our town that sell this brand, I'll ask around a bit to see if we can figure out who did this." They find the person who sold it to you and tell them that they were recorded against their will, and the seller finds your receipt. It may well be unlikely that they'd go to that length to find out, but it may be that your wife's friend just asks her husband and he says "Huh well MAJDEATH asked me if I'd stick a VAR in your car and I said no. He must have done it." BOOM...you are charged. They have the VAR, the recording, your fingerprints on the VAR...maybe the detective is resourceful and gets the receipt. Who knows! The point is this: are you really willing to risk fines, penalties, and a record just to find this out? What does it say about you and your morals that you are cool acting in an illegal way?


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

MAJDEATH said:


> Maybe that is the price to pay for her encouragement of relationships outside of marriage so many years ago. If you aren't doing anything wrong, why should it be a problem? And btw, the friend's H is both aware and supportive of any surveillance techniques when these 2 are together, however rare that is. We both know what they are capable of from the past, but give them the benefit of the doubt that they currently (and have for a long time now) maintain proper boundaries. Trust, but verify.
> 
> I know many of you will say "that's no way to live", and that is what you choose for your own reasons. I have chosen this path for my reasons (which would take too long to explain) and* I will continue along the journey*.


So you can post on forums informing everyone of your life?

Seems you like the drama and constant turmoil.

To each their own I guess.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Affaircare said:


> If you are a former federal investigator then you would be able to look up the laws in your state and determine if your behavior is legal or illegal in your state. If you want to choose to pursue illegal behavior, then that is your choice. I personally prefer to act in accordance with the laws of the state and/or country unless and until they go against moral principles. I can't "make" you act legally.
> 
> 
> 
> No your intent is not "lost on me." I get it. You intend to record your wife and her friend in the friend's car for your own surveillance purposes (aka "... to hear if your wife is in a current affair ... "). But MY message is lost on you! Doing that is NOT LEGAL. It may not be easy for them to figure out who did it or how it got there, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. Let's say you buy XYZ brand VAR, and it runs out of battery and makes a noise. They find the VAR. They reason "there's only a few places in our town that sell this brand, I'll ask around a bit to see if we can figure out who did this." They find the person who sold it to you and tell them that they were recorded against their will, and the seller finds your receipt. It may well be unlikely that they'd go to that length to find out, but it may be that your wife's friend just asks her husband and he says "Huh well MAJDEATH asked me if I'd stick a VAR in your car and I said no. He must have done it." BOOM...you are charged. They have the VAR, the recording, your fingerprints on the VAR...maybe the detective is resourceful and gets the receipt. Who knows! The point is this: are you really willing to risk fines, penalties, and a record just to find this out? What does it say about you and your morals that you are cool acting in an illegal way?


AffairCare, why do you have a link in your signature to Weightlifter's standard evidence post? You know, the one where he describes at length how to purchase, set-up, install, and secretly record a possible cheating spouse. Isn't that illegal? Are you advocating for illegal activity?


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

How would making this decision with the VAR add value to your life?


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

MAJDEATH said:


> What makes you think this? Are you a member of the anti-R (anti-reconciliation) crowd?


The quote above was directed at someone else, not me.

But I will proudly raise my hand and admit that I'm part of the 'anti-reconciliation' crowd.

After years of reading some of the prideless garbage from so many BS's on SI who have *volunteered *to pull up a permanent chair at the **** Sandwich Cafe (a/k/a agreeing to "reconcile") but are STILL - years later - seeing shady crap going on, it just confirms my belief that re-investing in a cheater is damned foolish.

When you've been reduced to having to do random 'maintenance' a few times a year on your cheater to make sure they're 'behaving' - placing VARs in cars and going through credit card statements/emails/online cell phone bills and using apps to bring back deleted texts, looking through their browser history and using GPS tracking apps to see where they've been or where they're going, keyloggers, hidden cams and everything else, it's actually downright pitiful. I mean, what low station in life have you COME to when *this* is your new "normal?"

Jeez, choosing to live like that just screams that you've lost* all *self respect.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

MAJDEATH said:


> Maybe that is the price to pay for her encouragement of relationships outside of marriage so many years ago. If you aren't doing anything wrong, why should it be a problem? And btw, the friend's H is both aware and supportive of any surveillance techniques when these 2 are together, however rare that is. We both know what they are capable of from the past, but give them the benefit of the doubt that they currently (and have for a long time now) maintain proper boundaries. Trust, but verify.


Your thought process about this is quite disturbing. To think that you would invade another person's privacy to catch your cheating wife is deplorable. You need to focus your anger and your surveillance where belongs. On Your cheating wife and only your wife. You are not judge, jury, and executioner when it comes to me. I am not married to you. I did not cheat on you. Sure, trust but verify. If her husband wants to gather Intel on his wife, he can go for it. But not you. That is definitely not your jurisdiction.

I feel like you are missing MY point. It has nothing to do with bringing this to a court of law as more fodder for your argument -whatever that may be at this late date- it has everything to do with the fact that you have invaded my right to privacy. 

That you have allowed your wife and this woman to continue to be friends is on you. That is your fault for not making that a boundary early on. And your failure to do so does not give you authority to surveil the friend now, too.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> The quote above was directed at someone else, not me.
> 
> But I will proudly raise my hand and admit that I'm part of the 'anti-reconciliation' crowd.
> 
> ...


Cheater or not, I would still do occasional checks on my spouse, based on what I have learned from being on TAM for the last few years and my own life experience. I guess my greatest fear is the not knowing, and I hope to never be in that position again. It works for me, but I understand others who are fine living with their heads buried in the sand following the mantra: what I don't know won't hurt me. Believe what you want.

BTW, some background on this particular friend. My W removed herself from the friend's life for about 5 yrs and moved far away, until the friend could get her head on straight and sort out her own demons. Her prior marriage had ended (mostly because of her behavior) and she was a toxic friend to my W 15 yrs ago (not to say that my W was blameless either). They now get together a couple of times a year, usually with us husband present. When my W revealed the true nature of their activities a couple of years ago, the 4 of us had a long discussion about the nature of our friendship going forward and what would cause an immediate end. Of course her new H hadn't been completely "read-in" on all of their shenanigans prior to the wedding and was appreciative of the total truth. The 2 ladies apologized, stated their behavior was completely out of character and not becoming of a true friend, and allowed for any monitoring or corrective action by us husbands. I remember saying to them "If I ever find out your W is engaging in the same behavior as before, I will find her and hit her in the face as hard as humanly possible", and they both said "I hope you do". I also told him to do the same to my W if she every did the same things as before. No problems so far.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

MAJDEATH said:


> I remember saying to them "If I ever find out your W is engaging in the same behavior as before, I will find her and hit her in the face as hard as humanly possible", and they both said "I hope you do". I also told him to do the same to my W if she every did the same things as before. No problems so far.


I remember the first time you posted this. And I still had the same visceral reaction reading this again today. The fact that you would be violent, let alone engage in violence against a woman who is not even your cheating wife, is beyond the pale. I realize you are in it for the Long Haul with your wife. And that's fine, obviously that is your decision. But the fact that you are willing to use violence to keep your cheating marriage is sad.

I pity you.


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## Rick Blaine (Mar 27, 2017)

MAJDEATH said:


> I appreciate the comments and advice. But I think there is some confusion. Several keep mentioning legality, courtrooms, and judges. The purpose of capturing any deceitful information is not to play it in court, it is for my piece of mind. It wouldn't matter in a no-fault state anyway.


Peace of mind comes with setting firm boundaries and your wife respecting them. Letting those two go off for a weekend isn't setting proper boundaries. They should know this, and so should your wife's friend's husband. Even if she did take your car and you were able to plant a VAR in it, you still would be going crazy trying to figure out what happened while those two were cavorting over the weekend. 

Not setting firm boundaries equals enabling. That's no way to live.


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## satphil (Feb 13, 2017)

I remember saying to them "If I ever find out your W is engaging in the same behavior as before, I will find her and hit her in the face as hard as humanly possible", and they both said "I hope you do". I also told him to do the same to my W if she every did the same things as before. No problems so far.[/QUOTE]

How's the counselling going ?


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

MAJDEATH said:


> Maybe that is the price to pay for her encouragement of relationships outside of marriage so many years ago. If you aren't doing anything wrong, why should it be a problem? And btw, the friend's H is both aware and supportive of any surveillance techniques when these 2 are together, however rare that is. We both know what they are capable of from the past, but give them the benefit of the doubt that they currently (and have for a long time now) maintain proper boundaries. Trust, but verify.
> 
> I know many of you will say "that's no way to live", and that is what you choose for your own reasons. I have chosen this path for my reasons (which would take too long to explain) and I will continue along the journey.


Was not your wife seeing a man behind your back and at your home for foot rubs not that long ago?


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## smokefire05 (Aug 24, 2017)

THIS is why I'm divorcing my unfaithful wife!! Why be with someone you dont trust? Years after infidelity and still bugging your wife like a CIA spy. No thanks.


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## Louise McCann (Jul 23, 2017)

I don't blame her, it's would be difficult not to be unfaithful to an insensitive male chauvinist like yourself.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

It continues to puzzle me how many folks advise against surreptitiously recording/videoing a suspected spouse and their corespondent because it may be "against the law" but go on to recommend contacting the alleged corespondent's spouse, boss, friends, et cetera, based on unproved, often weak, highly circumstantial evidence. If the old boy can plant a recorder and get away with it, who really gives a rats azz. If its against the law and he gets nailed, he pays the consequences. Its not like he's damaging someone's property or physically injuring someone.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

ABHale said:


> Was not your wife seeing a man behind your back and at your home for foot rubs not that long ago?


Kinda, she says she told me he was "stopping by" but left out the foot rubs until later. We sorted that out.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Louise McCann said:


> I don't blame her, it's would be difficult not to be unfaithful to an insensitive male chauvinist like yourself.


So what are my 2 options here:

1) Because you violated marital boundaries in the past with your toxic girlfriend, you can't be friends with her anymore. Now I am the controlling jerk who dictates how she should live her life.

2) I accept that you will friends with her, and I trust you 2 when you do things together. Now I am the cakewalk H who lets his spouse do anything she wants (including violating marital boundaries), with no repercussions.

Is there a third option? Yes. Based on her past behavior, she agrees to "trust but verify". I can monitor/record/check people/places/things for piece of mind, otherwise the post-nup kicks in and she loses all of me and what I bring. She knew years ago when she had relationships outside of marriage there would eventually be consequences. And she would fall apart without me.

So why does that make me an insensitive male chauvinist? Because she agreed to be monitored? Maybe you are insensitive to other women's choices/lifestyles:smthumbup:.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

VladDracul said:


> It continues to puzzle me how many folks advise against surreptitiously recording/videoing a suspected spouse and their corespondent because it may be "against the law" but go on to recommend contacting the alleged corespondent's spouse, boss, friends, et cetera, based on unproved, often weak, highly circumstantial evidence. If the old boy can plant a recorder and get away with it, who really gives a rats azz. If its against the law and he gets nailed, he pays the consequences. Its not like he's damaging someone's property or physically injuring someone.


As I used to tell folks that I was investigating: "If you aren't doing anything wrong, don't worry about being monitored by your government".


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

MAJDEATH said:


> So what are my 2 options here:
> 
> 1) Because you violated marital boundaries in the past with your toxic girlfriend, you can't be friends with her anymore. Now I am the controlling jerk who dictates how she should live her life.
> 
> ...


Does divorce even register as an option to you?


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Does divorce even register as an option to you?


Yes, always. But then I would have her death on my hands.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Option 1 is your best bet. No one would consider you a controlling jerk - it's common sense. Still wanting to hang out with this woman tells you all you need to know
about your wife. 

Are you saying that your wife would kill herself if you divorced her?


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## bigfoot (Jan 22, 2014)

I thought that yiu were writing a book MD. Iasked that months ago. Is this part of the book?

Next, recordings are very clearly governed by the law. Read the law if your state and don't break it. Chances are that you cannot put a recording device in someone else's car. It is not rocket science on that issue. Read the law and don't break it.

Next, needing to do it is problematic. I am not a fan or R in many situations. Still, if you opt for it then the burden is on the offender to be as aggressive in providing assurance as they were in concealment. If you feel a real need to check, then she is failing. If you feel paranoid need to check, that is the crappy part of R. You will have doubts and paranoia, thus the cheaters burden to assuage.

If you have a need to check at this point, it is time to get help or get out. Even if out, you still need help cause you bring that crap to every new relationship.

Finally, if her death is a REALISTIC option due ro divorce then your relationship is not healthy. Either she is the unhealthy one for being suicidal or you are for being homicidal. I assume you meant she would be suicidal. On that point I call BS. She won't do it. It either is her emotionally manipulating you, if she said it or it is you trying to somehow validate your worth by claiming or believing that she could not live without you. Newsflash, she cheated on you. She will be fine without you.

You guys need help because this whole dynamic, since your first post, is unhealthy. Alternatively, you are still doing book research as you admitted a while back.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

MAJDEATH said:


> Kinda, she says she told me he was "stopping by" but left out the foot rubs until later. We sorted that out.


Why haven't you put actual boundaries in place like no girl trips or having men over when she's alone?

Seems like a more rational approach than var-ing everything. 

I give and expect trust when warranted but if she's a cheater who has men "stop by" then it's more than valid to say no to girl trips and ever having any man over. Or even talking to them privately. 

She seems to think she can do whatever and you'll just sort it out later. 

I'd never have a man "stop by" without my bf there. I'd certainly never be in a position where he could touch me


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

MAJDEATH said:


> So what are my 2 options here:
> 
> 1) Because you violated marital boundaries in the past with your toxic girlfriend, you can't be friends with her anymore. Now I am the controlling jerk who dictates how she should live her life.
> 
> ...



I know I have never been one of your favorite "First Responders" or one of the hundred or so that talk back at ya'.

But I believe I have always been a booster for you. A booster shot in the butt, or in TAMs peanut gallery funny-bone.

I want you to keep tabs on her. You showed us her photo one time. She is a keeper. A real handful.

Handful? Bigger hands than mine. She sounds like she is very ribald and otherwise....fun!

Keep up the snoopin'.

She may be slowing down and will behave.
...............................................................................................
But:

And if she goes under the fence and roams the Dark Woods again, don't 'off' her. 

Set her free.
...............................................................................................

It then would appear- She needs more than one set of helping male hands to get her through this lfe.
Some women are like that. Whether you like it or not.
I would not...like this.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

bigfoot said:


> I thought that yiu were writing a book MD. Iasked that months ago. Is this part of the book?
> 
> Next, recordings are very clearly governed by the law. Read the law if your state and don't break it. Chances are that you cannot put a recording device in someone else's car. It is not rocket science on that issue. Read the law and don't break it.
> 
> ...


The book deal on marriage was retracted last year, I forgot to mention it. And I decided against placing a VAR in property that wasn't mine, even under the unique circumstances. I believe the girls trip was uneventful, but I'll never know for sure.

I like your idea about having the former wayward be as aggressive in transparency now as they were in hiding things then, as a kind of "makeup call" for past behaviors. My wife's friend is also suffering from epilepsy in her later years, so karma is working with me.


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