# Soul searching and the facts



## tinbanger (Feb 27, 2012)

*Soul searching and observations*

Let's start with the observations. 

My wife doesn't seem to like kissing me anymore. I'll get the obligatory peck on the lips before and after work, and before going to sleep, but nothing more intimate than that. I brush twice a day. I floss every night. I know I don't have bad breath, as I've asked people at work. This says to me that I'm not attractive to her anymore.

When I've asked her about her masturbation habits, she denies doing it, even though I can hear her doing it after we turn the lights off to go to sleep. She also will not touch herself down there when we make love. This says to me that she doesn't trust me.

When making love it's basically the starfish position, or legs straight down missionary. Changing positions are completely out of the question. Don't even mention making love anywhere outside the bedroom. She will barely touch me during sex, let alone give any HJ' or BJ's. Her excuse for BJ's is that she has a horrible gag reflex, but I'm not asking for any deep throat performances. Everything about her view on our sexual relationship says to me that she doesn't respect me as a man. 


I had my awakening back in February, when I realized what kind of shape our marriage was in. There was a huge lack of intimacy. When I tried to address it she gets extremely defensive and tells me that she doesn't seem to be good enough for me and she's "done".

I've now had a few months to review everything and it basically boils down to the fact that I'm no longer attractive to her anymore. This explains the lack of intimacy (kissing, trust, sex) as well as the lack of respect. I thought the hormones from giving birth to our youngest would have been part of the problem, but she's almost 13 months now, and we had this problem from before she was even conceived.

Also, I'm in excellent shape physically. I'm 6'1" and 205 lb, lean and starting to get muscle definition, so I definitely haven't let myself go.


Hence the other part of the title: soul searching. I've already been reading MMSL since late February. That's helped me to identify myself as overly beta in our relationship. I bought the 2011 Primer back in June, so I've been reading that to help out. I've also been here on TAM since February and came to grips that I'm a classic "Nice Guy" in every sense. The UPS guy just dropped off "No more Mr Nice Guy" and "His Needs, Her Needs" last night. When my wife saw these she asked "Am I that bad?" to which I replied "these books aren't for you, they're for me".

I've taken sex off the table (almost 3 weeks now). It's not that I haven't wanted to, it's the thought that she's doing it out of duty and not that she desires me just turns me off.

My goal is to get myself sorted out. I've been a doormat for too long. It's time to stand up for myself and actually use my voice to let people know when something doesn't fit well with me. I'm sure NMMNG will get me pointed in the right direction there. At the same time I want to start putting the practices in HNHN to work on our marriage. I had bought the book for me, but she could probably benefit from reading it as well.

So my question to the other men of TAM (and ladies, if your man went through this): how many of you have had this "awakening", and how far along it's course are you? Does anyone have any insight to pitfalls to avoid?

I'm also open to any suggestions or criticism. I want my marriage to work, and if I have to change my behaviours, I'm not afraid to do it.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Quick question: have you grown facial hair? Do you shave every day? 
Has she always been so unaffectionate and distant? 
You can hear her masturbating? I think an alpha would take action. If that were my h doing that in our bed and he didn't want me, we would have a problem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinbanger (Feb 27, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> Quick question: have you grown facial hair? Do you shave every day?
> Has she always been so unaffectionate and distant?
> You can hear her masturbating? I think an alpha would take action. If that were my h doing that in our bed and he didn't want me, we would have a problem.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No facial hair. I've shaved every day as well as letting it grow out. Neither made a difference for kissing.

In our early years of dating and marriage she was affectionate.

I've tried taking action in the past, but I've been rejected.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

tinbanger said:


> Everything about her view on our sexual relationship says to me that she doesn't respect me as a man.
> 
> I'm no longer attractive to her anymore. This explains the lack of intimacy (kissing, trust, sex) as well as the lack of respect.


With all due respect, these are not "facts", these are judgements, and not very respectful ones at that. Her behavior gives you a lot of information about her internal view of herself than her view of you.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I don't mean by trying to come onto her, I mean calling her on her BS. Her sexual energy is going into herself and not the marriage. Something is off and she is blatantly lying about it. 
I also agree that those aren't facts. Something is wrong but she isn't communicating and seems to be gas lighting you.
Is there any way she is having an affair? Can you remember any thing that coincided with the loss of her drive? Did you have fertility issues? Has she gained weight, had a miscarriage, had a loved one die, started taking medication?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinbanger (Feb 27, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> With all due respect, these are not "facts", these are judgements, and not very respectful ones at that. Her behavior gives you a lot of information about her internal view of herself than her view of you.


Thanks for replying TYH. You're right, calling them "facts" doesn't seem to fit well in my head now that I've read through my post again. 

It would be more fair to say that these are behaviours I've seen, as well as how they make me feel, rather than what I think she is thinking.


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## tinbanger (Feb 27, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> I don't mean by trying to come onto her, I mean calling her on her BS. Her sexual energy is going into herself and not the marriage. Something is off and she is blatantly lying about it.
> I also agree that those aren't facts. Something is wrong but she isn't communicating and seems to be gas lighting you.
> Is there any way she is having an affair? Can you remember any thing that coincided with the loss of her drive? Did you have fertility issues? Has she gained weight, had a miscarriage, had a loved one die, started taking medication?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've also tried calling her on it, but she puts it off as "scratching".
An affair would be very unlikely. We have access to each others emails, cell phones, facebook, etc., and I haven't come across any kind of communication like that.
Nothing I can think of that coincided with her loss of drive. It was very gradual.
No fertility issues. 
She's actually lost weight from when we first started dating.
We did have a miscarriage before the youngest was conceived, but this was after the drop.
Her grandmother passed away before we were married, so that would probably not be related.
No medications for either of us, other than her being on the pill. I've read that can have an impact on drive as well.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

tinbanger said:


> Thanks for replying TYH. You're right, calling them "facts" doesn't seem to fit well in my head now that I've read through my post again.
> 
> It would be more fair to say that these are behaviours I've seen, as well as how they make me feel, rather than what I think she is thinking.


That's more like it. So the woman does (or doesn't do) something for whatever her reason is (if she even has one) and the man observes her behavior, comes to some conclusion about how he thinks she feels about him and adjusts his feelings and behavior accordingly. Who exactly is in charge here? Who is the adult in this interaction?

Don't get me wrong, I do the same thing. I think it's a universal problem. One thing I do differently than yourself is I refuse to let my w affect the frequency of intimacy with whatever her personal problems are. My response to her rising sense of duty is to increase the call. This has worked great for me by the way


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Yes the pill can decrease desire, and being a SAHM is also a great way to lose desire. Breast feeding does too. If she's got all three it's a perfect storm of feeling crappy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## c2500 (Aug 17, 2011)

Be aware....If you use Blackberries, it is easy to delete emails and hard to get access to them. That is how my to be ex had her affair.

c2500


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Basically by giving you basic sex your wife is keeping you onside, just about. Keeping you onside means you keep giving her what she needs to live. It’s a trade. Got it?


Withholding affection on the other hand is an act of aggression. It’s designed to wound, hurt and cause pain. It works, doesn’t it.

She either doesn’t love you, doesn’t respect you or doesn’t value you in her life. She certainly has no attraction to you and far less any desire of you. She may also be harbouring resentment towards you. Of course it could be all six of the foregoing.


What to do? Be serious with your wife. Grave even. And ask her if she wishes her marriage to you to continue. If she says no you know exactly where you stand with her. But personally I doubt she’ll be open and honest with you and she’ll just keep stringing you along.

If she does want to stay married to you then book yourselves on a course like The Marriage Course - Explore the Marriage Course | Alpha USA where you’ll both learn the essential ingredients and dynamics of a happy and healthy marriage.

She has to become reinvested in you, just like you are with her, in order for your marriage to work. That is, she has to put in work to make your marriage work. If she can’t be bothered then you’re likely better off moving on and finding somebody else.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Of course in situations like yours it behoves you to spy on your wife, it’s what the wise, already bitten and learned man will do.


She may well be withholding her affection from you, have a lack of respect for you because she is giving those things to another man in her life and if she gives them to you as well she’ll feel like she’s betraying him.


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