# Second Marriages



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Something I read on-line last night has been eating at me ever since. I don't remember the exact figures but as I understand it about 40-50% of first marriages end in divorce.

We knew that.

What I didn't know was that something around 60-70% of SECOND marriages fail as well.

The reasons seem to be, excess baggage from the prior marriage, difficulty in integrating children, financial difficulties caused by the first marriage, and on and on.

All of which raises a question: should we be telling folks contemplating divorce to go ahead and do it because a wonderful second spouse is out there somewhere? Is the data just crappy? Or do we need to rethink our advice?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

A couple of things come to mind. Perhaps that wonderful second spouse isn't out there (I do think there are many good/better prospects, though), but you know the first spouse was a mistake - that's why you dump them. You can HOPE to do better the next time, whether or not you do so. Besides, even if second marriages fail at a higher rate does not mean they aren't GREAT for a number of years.

I think the real reason second marriages end more often, is that people won't put up with their spouse's crap anymore, and having divorced once, realize it isn't so bad as you once thought, is survivable, and maybe even 'thrivable.' I think more first marriages would end in divorce if people realized they could do better, even if they end up without another marriage. Fear keeps them stuck in bad marriages.

And of course, there are those many people who have wonderful, lasting second marriages, like me. Despite the various challenges, it's still far, far better and happier than either of our first marriages.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

I've read that about 38 to 40 % of 1st marriages fail. The rate of failure for 2nd marriages is over 60% and it shoots past 70% for 3rd marriage.

Once you're willing to blow up a marriage once, the inhibition goes down dramatically after that. of course there are exceptions but the numbers don't lie.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

sidney2718 said:


> All of which raises a question: should we be telling folks contemplating divorce to go ahead and do it because a wonderful second spouse is out there somewhere? Is the data just crappy? Or do we need to rethink our advice?


Most people who post here are in marriages with little chance of saving, which is why the majority of advice to newcomers is to cut their losses and divorce, and it's usually spot on. But here we have a particular subset of the married population where the marriages are in a really bad place. 

To the population in general, we need to be spreading the word that marriage is a failed concept and if anything, we should be telling folks contemplating marriage not to do it because the odds are it will end in a divorce, especially if it's a subsequent marriage. 

But it doesn't matter what we tell them because lets face it, they aren't going to listen to us anyway.


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## EunuchMonk (Jan 3, 2016)

I think the reason second marriages fail so much is that there is little to no introspection. No lesson learnt from the recent failed relationship. Only bitterness and a more jaded view of life carried over. If someone does some deep soul-searching — and I mean _deep_ — then I think the second marriage will have a higher success rate than even the first. But, alas, how many are willing to look at their naked self? It is a terrible sight. To see that you are not this shiny angel/snowflake you always imagined yourself to be. It makes one uncomfortable. I have done it. I know what it feels like.

This introspection, if it is thorough, I think can make one come out better. Make one realise that you do not wait for the feelings to love or display love but be intentional. Let your feelings fall in line with your will and not the other way around. Let love grow out of the tumultuous whirlwind of emotion and sentiment that characterises adolescent infatuation. Let it be about choices more than emotions. Unfortunately, we are, like Fitzgerald said, "boats against the current, borne back ceasely into the past". We are struggling to regain some youthful euphoria, some remembered past, fonder in memory than it was in reality. I think a few will learn this. I think many won't.

Godspeed, OP.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

EunuchMonk said:


> I think the reason second marriages fail so much is that there is little to no introspection. No lesson learnt from the recent failed relationship. Only bitterness and a more jaded view of life carried over. If someone does some deep soul-searching — and I mean _deep_ — then I think the second marriage will have a higher success rate than even the first.


Nah. Your logic is flawed and the points you make in your post fly in the face of the reasons commonly given for failure rates of subsequent marriages. Introspection might help but it won't be enough to offset the problems inherent in second marriages including but not limited to children from the prior marriage and all the conflict that brings, the two parties are older, more fixed and stubborn and set in their ways, and possibly more importantly the first marriage is an indicator that one or both partners don't have what it takes to stay in a long, exclusive committed relationship due to personality conflicts, mental problems, spending problems, lack of trustworthiness, extreme selfishness, and just plain bad moral character. In other words, a dog that's run away before is that much more likely to do it again, even if you build a higher fence.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

My friends that have second/third marriages have all tended to pick the same type of partner as the first one that didn't work out. People do need to improve themselves and take time to gain perspective not only on what went wrong but what they want in a new relationship. Too often I think people start dating too quick, jump too deep into a new relationship and overlook flaws/issues in both themselves and a new potential partner. 

Blended families in future marriages also add stresses onto a marriage that no one plans on. I know in my brothers second marriage this is a large part of the stresses in the marriage.


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## Pam (Oct 7, 2010)

My first was a mama's baby, my second was a father figure, and my third was my soul mate. So sometimes third time really is a charm.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

I tend to agree with the sentiment that if you didn't learn from your mistakes during the first round, you're going to be doomed to repeat them during the second (or third) round.
I knew that I had made many mistakes in choosing my first husband. There were some qualities in him that I valued and appreciated, qualities that I knew were upstanding and wanted to have in a man again. I also knew of some qualities that I had grown to dislike (primarily because I had grown up and my preferences for certain attitudes/outlooks had changed).

If I hadn't taken a long time to really figure out where *I* went wrong and what I was hoping to get out of life, then I may have made another poor choice in partner.
Although it is technically still early days for Odo and I, there is a confidence in me, even if premature, that we are going to endure.


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## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

Prenup!!!


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## Hope Shimmers (Jul 10, 2015)

In my case, I just got tired of being some man's emotional and physical punching bag.

So I'm not worried about statistics of a second marriage. As long as I improve my hair trigger man picker, which I intend to do.

I strongly suspect that long-term relationships that don't include marriage (a second marriage) would have similar statistics. The same types of pressures would likely still be present. So this isn't really another reason to rag on marriage in general.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

My first fiancé (no marriage) and my first wife were quite similar in behaviors, second wife was completely different with a different set of attractions, and third (and current) wife still different yet were all very different in personalities.

I would say the difference was more me and the different directions I had grown, or failed to grow.

I think introspection is a wonderful self-discovery if pride can be set aside. 

Unfortunately, ego and hurt partner up too often to allow this as people come into our lives as both blessings and lessons.


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## Hope Shimmers (Jul 10, 2015)

Oh, to answer your initial question about whether this should change our advice. It would depend on the particular situation, but in general I would say no because usually the advice is being given to someone who is being screwed over in the marriage (cheated on, etc). So that person could certainly stand to do better the second time around.


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## EunuchMonk (Jan 3, 2016)

browser said:


> Nah. Your logic is flawed and the points you make in your post fly in the face of the reasons commonly given for failure rates of subsequent marriages. Introspection might help but it won't be enough to offset the problems inherent in second marriages including but not limited to children from the prior marriage and all the conflict that brings, the two parties are older, more fixed and stubborn and set in their ways, and possibly more importantly the first marriage is an indicator that one or both partners don't have what it takes to stay in a long, exclusive committed relationship due to personality conflicts, mental problems, spending problems, lack of trustworthiness, extreme selfishness, and just plain bad moral character. In other words, a dog that's run away before is that much more likely to do it again, even if you build a higher fence.


Tsk! People who cannot even assess the challenges of raising kids have done no introspection. They are immature, like teenagers. They let their feelings get them into the relationship and don't think practically, "oh, I have little children and you always work nights? I like you but this isn't going to work." But that doesn't happen. I feel in love so despite the obvious obstacles they get into the relationship anyway and surprise surprise, it fails.

More fixed and stubborn in their ways? What do you think the deep introspection is for? For change. If you admit you don't want to change then stay by yourself until you find someone compatible with the way you already are.

You sound like you have a defeatist attitude so I will let you wallow and become a self-fulfilling prophecy. For those who want it bad enough change is possible. But, like I said you have to be intentional. Stop the provisional life.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> All of which raises a question: should we be telling folks contemplating divorce to go ahead and do it because a wonderful second spouse is out there somewhere? Is the data just crappy? Or do we need to rethink our advice?



I tend to believe the percentages, though I've read they are 10 - 20% higher for first and second marriages. So, it varies, as all of those statistics do depending on how the questions were worded and who is reading and interpreting them? Maybe.


For certain couples, yes, I believe there is a chance and they should be told there is. For others, I do believe divorce is the best option.

Most of those left out there are damaged, including me, after the first marriage. Some have healed fairly well. Others, not so much, but it depends on their denial and ability to get help, as well as their personal issues. Let's face it. There are many factors that can make a person ineligible for marriage. There are few who meet our own personal requirements for a spouse.

When a marriage is harming one of the spouses, or both, I think it is best to get away from the pain and harm. Get into counseling and look for someone else. At the same time, it is a time of self-discovery and growth. It can be a wonderful opportunity. It's up to the individual.

I have seen very few troubled marriages that come here which are a good prospect for a group of folks like us to help reconcile. We can help them with encouragement and examples of recovery from the pain and harm of infidelity. 

Those who come here are usually long past the stage where it is possible to reconcile without one partner becoming beaten down and destroyed by humility toward the persecutor, controller, or torturer. It's looked upon negatively when the WS is made to feel the depth of pain they have inflicted. I see no other way of them understanding what they are asking their BS to do for them. 

Since the WS, in my mind, usually is the one who bears no empathy and little responsibility or suffering during and after an affair, I see their actions as intentionally causing harm. I don't think it is possible for them to feel anything except superior in reconciliation. 

I think a good marriage does not include one spouse feeling superior or self-righteous. The trouble with that is, it negates my idea that the WS needs to feel the depth of pain they inflicted. It can actually never happen. 

It is likely better to offer a divorce, break up the marriage and property accumulated, and part ways forever, while having contact only for the children's sake. 

This allows the WS to follow their passion, while the BS can find a healing process that works for them and a new life which would likely be considerably happier, single or married.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

EunuchMonk said:


> More fixed and stubborn in their ways? What do you think the deep introspection is for? For change. If you admit you don't want to change then stay by yourself until you find someone compatible with the way you already are.


People don't really change significantly once their personality is developed and they're adults, say by their mid 20s. Yes, years of intensive therapy by a qualified, competent, caring therapist might turn on a few light bulbs but for the most part no one is going anywhere. 



EunuchMonk said:


> You sound like you have a defeatist attitude so I will let you wallow and become a self-fulfilling prophecy.


I'm just being realistic. The high failure rate of marriages, especially subsequent marriages, says it all. 

For the record I'm happily involved with my girlfriend aka domestic partner aka live in girlfriend for 5 years, and we're doing great. But we'd never marry again, because we both understand it's pointless.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

sidney2718 said:


> All of which raises a question: should we be telling folks contemplating divorce to go ahead and do it because a wonderful second spouse is out there somewhere? Is the data just crappy? Or do we need to rethink our advice?


 @sidney2718, 

Here's my take: when people have a first marriage that is difficult they sometimes think that by leaving the marriage, all their problems will go away. We've seen it time and again: one spouse blames the other for all the problems they've ever experienced, and blames them "how they feel," and blames them for their own unhappiness...thus they think something close to "If I get rid of my spouse, I get rid of all the problems, I'll feel better, and I won't be unhappy." 

Unfortunately those of us who are rational know that getting rid of one person does not get rid of all problems! It just introduces a whole addition set of NEW problems! 

So rather brilliantly you ask, "Should we rethink our advice?" Honestly I don't think we should be debating percentages and science and results here. The question is: "Should we rethink our advice?" and I believe the answer is "Possibly, yes!"

Here's why:

When we tell someone (loyal or disloyal) that a wonderful second spouse is "out there somewhere" we don't know that! It is within the realm of conceivability that when they pick a second spouse, they will choose someone very similar to their first spouse and have all the same problems. It is equally within the realm of conceivability that when they pick a second spouse, they'll choose someone exactly the opposite of their first spouse and encounter all THOSE problems! 

See, part of the "problems" stay with the person unless they address them and choose to change--and part of the "problems" are just inherent in sharing life with another human being who is not you--and another part of the "problems" will be a whole new set of "problems" that are unique to second marriage such as raising step-kids, paying child support, splitting tax refunds with the ex, etc. 

So for us to say "There's a magical better fit for you out there if you just leave this marriage" is not necessarily wise advice. In real life, being with any other human requires some growth on your part, and requires some negotiations and communication. Even if they find someone who is more mature, who is a better fit personality-wise, who has many similar interests, and was raised in a very similar way (aka "They get along great"), if they have not grown from their divorce, they will likely do some of the same harmful things again and harm their second marriage. If they have not learned how to negotiate and communicate, they will likely not have that great, dream second marriage. 

AND finding the same "type" of second spouse AND committing some of the same errors in their second marriage AND now facing the new issues of a second marriage, well shoot! For 60-70% of the people it's just added on *more *problems to a situation fraught with problems!

So rather than advising people "Leave your spouse--there is a great second spouse out there for you!" I'd say we'd be wiser to recommend that no matter what they choose, do whatever work they may need to do, learn and grow, and become better people. Then they can make either choice (stay or leave) and do a better job at it!


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

sidney2718 said:


> Something I read on-line last night has been eating at me ever since. I don't remember the exact figures but as I understand it about 40-50% of first marriages end in divorce.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




What you fail to consider here is that the first divorce is a psychological barrier. Once it is crossed, it becomes easier to do a second time. Like cheating. 

Also early in the first marriage we are optimistic and hope things get better. Eventually we learn it doesn't get better and start focusing on own our needs. So if the second partner doesn't measure up we know that it won't get better and we won't stick around.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

I want to thank all that have participated. My personal feeling leans toward the "introspection" point of view, but I also feel that introspection isn't the right word.

In my longish life so far I've seen many marriages and breakups. There was often some seriously bad behavior, usually infidelity. But since I knew the couple I could easily see that there were problems in the relationship. If the wife left the husband (the most common TAM case) it was clear to me and others that the husband had some serious faults. Does that justify an affair? Of course not but remember we here to not like spouses who come home one day to announce that they no longer love their partner---with no affair hiding in the background.

I think that we need to pry a bit more into the OP's character and personality before judging the situation. Our advice probably would still be divorce, but we wouldn't fool the OP by claiming that there is an angle out there just waiting for them.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

sidney2718 said:


> Something I read on-line last night has been eating at me ever since. I don't remember the exact figures but as I understand it about 40-50% of first marriages end in divorce.
> 
> We knew that.
> 
> ...


I've read that, too and I wonder if some of it stems from second marriages that were affairs to start, the first marriage ended (because of the affair) and the affair couple thought they'd find bliss. I also think that people who get married a second time, didn't spend enough time working on themselves and healing from the first marriage, so they jump into the next relationship, thinking the first marriage was the problem or they married the wrong person.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Second marriages fail because the added stress of blending families quickly detiorates a relationship. Stepparenting and stepchildren dynamics are brutal. I've heard from several women that they're happier with their second husbands but due to issues with their kids, they would have fought harder to save their first marriages. 

While I don't believe that a couple should only stay together "for the kids," I do recognize how challenging blended family issues can be and how hard they are on a second marriage.


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## EunuchMonk (Jan 3, 2016)

browser said:


> People don't really change significantly once they're personality is developed and they're adults, say by their mid 20s. Yes, years of intensive therapy by a qualified, competent, caring therapist might turn on a few light bulbs but for the most part no one is going anywhere.


True. They don't. Doesn't mean they can't. Again, it all has to do with the level of dedication you have to changing. If you want to be complacent and go with the flow, don't ***** and moan about how things are when you refuse to go out of your comfort zone to change things, is my way of thinking.




> I'm just being realistic. The high failure rate of marriages, especially subsequent marriages, says it all.
> 
> For the record I'm happily involved with my girlfriend aka domestic partner aka live in girlfriend for 5 years, and we're doing great. But we'd never marry again, because we both understand it's pointless.


You accept that reality. All the sheep go that way so you go too. Whatever works for you. FYI, non married relationships fail just as much.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Granted many second marriages are great, my father is a case in point, he has been with my step mum for 35 years.
However, the problems individuals have (all have flaws) will be carried into the next marriage. 
All too often the reason why people have affairs, get divorced, etc is because they are looking for the 20% they can't find in their first marriage, they find it in the second one but then more than 20% is missing.

Bottom line is you cannot find happiness in another person, you have to find it in yourself but too many people think that happiness comes only by having a partner.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

So then divorce but don't remarry.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

EunuchMonk said:


> FYI, non married relationships fail just as much.


I never said nor implied that non-married relationships are somehow less prone to failure.

What I did say was that when a non-married couple decides they want out, they can do it much easier and faster without all those expensive and messy legal proceedings that are necessary to end a marriage.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

After being cheated on and divorcing... I'm in the "One and Done" camp. The only 100% proof positive way you won't be cheated on again and go down the D road.

BTW, I did R.


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

Let's be honest...40-50% 1st Marriages end in Divorce. The other 25% are in miserable and too scared of the unknown to end it. Maybe 25% are truly happy and no regrets. That might be high. 

Once you survive a divorce, you don't put up with crap again and not afraid to start over. Life is short, you can always make more money tomorrow or find a wealthier partner (ha). It does raise the question why even bother to get married. It's the commitment that you won't just walk away when things get tough and you have to at least try to make things work. 

I'm engaged and set to get married for a 2nd time in 6 months. Trying to buy a house right now and blend our families officially. It won't be easy but I'm willing to do it because I love my girl and don't want to go a day without seeing her or her kids. I'll post back in 10 years and let you know if it was a good decision.


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## MovingForward (Jan 19, 2017)

Affaircare said:


> @sidney2718,
> 
> Here's my take: when people have a first marriage that is difficult they sometimes think that by leaving the marriage, all their problems will go away. We've seen it time and again: one spouse blames the other for all the problems they've ever experienced, and blames them "how they feel," and blames them for their own unhappiness...thus they think something close to "If I get rid of my spouse, I get rid of all the problems, I'll feel better, and I won't be unhappy."
> 
> ...


I agree with this, I feel like my wife is thinking everything will be fixed if we get divorced but some of the reasons she has given me are going to remain or and some aspects will get worse.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

GuyInColorado said:


> Let's be honest...40-50% 1st Marriages end in Divorce. The other 25% are in miserable and too scared of the unknown to end it. Maybe 25% are truly happy and no regrets. That might be high.


The statistics you quote are accurate. About half of first marriages end in divorce. The vast majority of subsequent marriages end in divorce and of the remaining first and subsequent marriages a large part of those are only "intact" because of fear or finances or "the children" or just plain convenience. 



GuyInColorado said:


> Once you survive a divorce, you don't put up with crap again and not afraid to start over.


You and I draw very different conclusions. You jumped right into a subsequent marriage with a woman you know less than 9 months, where as I'll never get married again even though I am half of a very happy couple in a long exclusive committed relationship that just passed the 5 year mark.



GuyInColorado said:


> Life is short, you can always make more money tomorrow or find a wealthier partner (ha).


Life is short, so why spend a good chunk of it litigating, and rebuilding your hard earned money and assets you lost in a divorce only to do it all over again? You cannot assume you can always "make more money" or even earn back a small part of what you lose in the first divorce. Nor can you assume a wealthier partner is waiting right around the corner for you to scoop into your arms.



GuyInColorado said:


> It does raise the question why even bother to get married. It's the commitment that you won't just walk away when things get tough and you have to at least try to make things work.


Yes it does raise the question why get married again. Your given answer "it's harder to walk away from so you'll try harder to make things work" is flawed on so many levels that I won't even begin to try to tear it apart in this post, but I will say this "marriage simply makes it that much more difficult to walk away from a failed relationship, it does not make it any easier to fix". 



GuyInColorado said:


> I'll post back in 10 years and let you know if it was a good decision.


I'm thinking you'll find out way before then.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Affaircare said:


> ... Here's my take: when people have a first marriage that is difficult they sometimes think that by leaving the marriage, all their problems will go away. We've seen it time and again: one spouse blames the other for all the problems they've ever experienced, and blames them "how they feel," and blames them for their own unhappiness...thus they think something close to "If I get rid of my spouse, I get rid of all the problems, I'll feel better, and I won't be unhappy."
> 
> *Unfortunately those of us who are rational know that getting rid of one person does not get rid of all problems! It just introduces a whole addition set of NEW problems!*
> 
> ...


I beg to differ with the first bolded bit, but agree with your second, closing statement. I got rid of *all* of my problems associated with my ex and first marriage most definitively when I left her. I already owned any issues I had, and worked on myself to avoid having the same issues in any subsequent relationship. Whether or not someone great is out there, I found it _better to be alone_ for a while, than remain in my first marriage. Of course, if you don't know what the problems were, who was responsible, and your own role in creating them or letting them grow, then you may not do better. That's still no reason to stay in an unhappy, possibly toxic relationship!

As for me, I did find "a magical better fit for you out there if you just leave this marriage." No guarantee anyone else will, but without dumping a bad relationship, you don't even have _hope_ to find something better. My new relationship didn't _add_ new problems - just introduced different ones that were less negative and burdensome versus those with my ex, which as I said, were gone when she was gone. And it is often still better to divorce and be alone than continue to put up with problems you haven't been able to - and likely can't - solve.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> I beg to differ with the first bolded bit, but agree with your second, closing statement. I got rid of *all* of my problems associated with my ex and first marriage most definitively when I left her. I already owned any issues I had, and worked on myself to avoid having the same issues in any subsequent relationship.
> 
> Whether or not someone great is out there, I found it _better to be alone_ for a while, than remain in my first marriage. Of course, if you don't know what the problems were, who was responsible, and your own role in creating them or letting them grow, then you may not do better. That's still no reason to stay in an unhappy, possibly toxic relationship!
> 
> As for me, I did find "a magical better fit for you out there if you just leave this marriage." No guarantee anyone else will, but *without dumping a bad relationship, you don't even have hope to find something better. My new relationship didn't add new problems - just introduced different ones that were less negative and burdensome versus those with my ex, which as I said, were gone when she was gone. And it is often still better to divorce and be alone than continue to put up with problems you haven't been able to - and likely can't - solve*.



This is what I think, too. I figure the problems might be more tolerable, as they were for you. And, at least you don't have the same ones.


--------------------------------------------

Though, infidelity can and does happen in any type of relationship, married or not. That was a comment on the idea of not being able to be cheated on when you aren't married in a different post. This is subjective, not objective. 


---------------------------------------------


The issue of trying to get more information out of a member in a struggling marriage, is we don't have the ability to know if their story is true. We also can know that their memory will differ from their spouse. Doesn't mean they are lying, necessarily, but it means the objective truth is tougher to find. 

We end up making suggestions based on our individual experiences and what we believe to be the best chance of greater happiness. That doesn't always mean you will find another "wife or husband". It can mean you will have some fun dating and living your life without the turmoil presented by the former life partner, husband, wife. 

I think that is the message and many don't understand it. Even without a wife or husband, life can be a hell of a lot of fun. It's up to the individual. It may be possible to ask someone what they do in their free time, but I don't think anyone can know what life has in store for anyone. I don't think that is the most important thing on their mind until they have chosen to move toward reconciliation or divorce.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> All of which raises a question: should we be telling folks contemplating divorce to go ahead and do it because a wonderful second spouse is out there somewhere? Is the data just crappy? Or do we need to rethink our advice?


I'd marry again if I found the right spouse. My marriage only ended because I dumped my wife for being a cheating sloot. Too much self respect to stay.

It was a typical up and down marriage otherwise and nor was I a bad husband (clearly, if she was BEGGING me to give her another chance.)

So, there's really no deep introspection required on this one imo. If she can keep it in her pants and behave like a decent person, then I'd be content.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

browser said:


> To the population in general, we need to be spreading the word that marriage is a failed concept and if anything, we should be telling folks contemplating marriage not to do it because the odds are it will end in a divorce, especially if it's a subsequent marriage.
> 
> But it doesn't matter what we tell them because lets face it, they aren't going to listen to us anyway.


That's what I've always been saying, marriage is a bad deal especially for men. Once you get out of a bad one, should learn from that experience and not do it again.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

I think most of them tell them to divorce to get our of a bad marriage. Finding another spouse is just the cherry on the apple but I have known many who had great success in their second marriage. Most of the couples we knew were in their second marriage. I certainly understand where children and baggage can be the problem but it is like being on a burning ship. You can stay and get burned to death or jump into the water and then worry about how you are going to swim to shore. We are just telling people to divorce to get out of a toxic relationship and unless you first jump, you will never even have a shot at getting to shore.

Also consider a person who seeks device of such great importance from strangers who do not have to suffer the consequences. Do you think they would actually make a decision based on the replies they get online. I doubt it but if they do, that is a whole different problem to discuss. It is very easy to tell someone to jump when you do not have to deal with the chance of drowning. I hope that people who post use our opinions and advice to suppliment their own. There are opinions and informed opinions. Only the latter are worth serious consideration and that is for the poster to figure out. 

What it comes down to is staying in a marriage will make you unhappy for the rest of your life. Divorcing will at least give you a shot at happiness, no matter what the odds. Even if the odds were the same as first messengers, they are essentially a coin flip anyway. One path keeps in in a toxic marriage while the other gives you fighting odds for happiness.


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## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

My first, wife's second. 

Her first was a shotgun wedding that gifted me the incredible light and joy that is my oldest daughter and who is the reason I wanted more kids. I managed to talk her into having two more with me.

W had already been separated from her husband for 6 months when I met her (it's a year before D here) and she's never once described him or their brief marriage fondly when she's spoken of him at all. Not that he was abusive. Just useless - both in the sack and at life. He was an out of work actor always waiting by the phone ('cause all we had were landlines) for 'the callback' while she was working 2 job's to support their small family and struggling to arrange daycare. This last because he had shown himself incapable of doing even that when he left his 20 month old toddler alone in the apartment to run down to the corner for a paper and coffee.

He accused her of cheating and threw both her and his daughter out. Based on the vagueness of the story from her at that point and knowing her as well as I do, I'm inclined to believe that's what happened but it really doesn't matter. I'll never know for sure and it's pointless to dig. She got on a bus the next day with her child and moved four hundred miles to where she ended up meeting me.

And yes, my oldest is the spitting image of him. Has been from the get go.

In the twenty three years we've been together, we've driven our marriage through a couple of boulder fields that should have torn the tranny and dif out. Looking back, I can honestly say that it was a combination of white knuckle fear and codependance (on both our parts at different times) that's kept it all together.

Regardless, we're in a really good place (at this point in time anyway) and it's been a helluva interesting ride. 

Yes we were then and are presently very deeply in love. But ultimately we married because we planned on more kids and wanted to do the nuclear family thing. Beyond that, I'm reminded of what my Dad asked me when I told him I was engaged 

"Are you planning on more kids? If you're not planning on kids, why bother? Marriage becomes nothing more than a very public declaration of very private intent. Why would you get the state or some god _legally_ involved in that?"


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

jb02157 said:


> That's what I've always been saying,* marriage is a bad deal especially for men. * Once you get out of a bad one, should learn from that experience and not do it again.


Amen to that. 

From financial ruin, to alimony, to custody of children... It was definitely a strong consideration with R with my cheating wife. She knows very well, if I had the crystal ball so many years ago, I would of never made that trip down the aisle. Just not worth it.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

RWB said:


> Amen to that.
> 
> From financial ruin, to alimony, to custody of children... It was definitely a strong consideration with R with my cheating wife. She knows very well, if I had the crystal ball so many years ago, I would of never made that trip down the aisle. Just not worth it.


You state the obvious. What man, knowing that his marriage would end in financial ruin and loss of his children would have gotten married in the first place?

What is not so obvious, is that many of those same men, when finding themselves in exactly the same position, with a different women, go and do it all over again. Sometimes several times. 

You know the definition of insanity.. doing the same thing over and over yet expecting different results. 

Am I saying that anyone who gets married more than once is possibly insane?

No, actually I'm saying any man that gets married even once has a few screws loose. (except in the rare cases that the woman has more assets and income than he does)


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

browser said:


> Am I saying that anyone who gets married more than once is possibly insane?
> 
> No, actually I'm saying any man that gets married even once has a few screws loose. (except in the rare cases that the woman has more assets and income than he does)


In the second instance I married a woman (her first instance) who has more assets and income than I.

My first marriage was a (fortunately short lived) train wreck, while my second has been good so far.

If my current marriage ends I doubt I will choose to marry anyone else, that said I will certainly seek other sexual partners.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

^ Now this is the way to do it.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

browser said:


> No, actually I'm saying any man that gets married even once has a few screws loose. (except in the rare cases that the woman has more assets and income than he does)


I won't deny the few screws loose theory haha. When I first got married my ex did have more assets and made more money than me. Flash forward 15 years and she's outta work or underemployed for several years, I'm making more than 3x the best job she ever had and guess who's learning the price of success and why one should never marry......


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## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

Yah. We didn't have a pot to piss in between us when we first met and I've been the sole bread winner for the better part of since, right up to present.

Add 3 kids into the equation and dating post D probably wouldn't be an option for a long time. After the system was finished with me it'd be hard to impress women with the cardboard box under an overpass I'd be living in. No matter how stately.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

RWB said:


> Amen to that.
> 
> From financial ruin, to alimony, to custody of children... It was definitely a strong consideration with R with my cheating wife. She knows very well, if I had the crystal ball so many years ago, I would of never made that trip down the aisle. Just not worth it.


From what I've known and read this seems to be the path of every divorce. The result is rarely much better than keep a bad marriage going.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

honcho said:


> I won't deny the few screws loose theory haha. When I first got married my ex did have more assets and made more money than me. Flash forward 15 years and she's outta work or underemployed for several years, I'm making more than 3x the best job she ever had and guess who's learning the price of success and why one should never marry......


Unfortunately men are going to need to have how much any candidate for marriage makes be a major factor in their decision if they want to preserve their financial status and freedom. You would be crazy not to. I wish I had known all of this before I decided to get married. In that case, my wife would never have been considered.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I think we need to change our advice personally. I've been told, and have seen way to much advice being that divorce is the answer. I disagree. Second marriages are hard and can be very complicated because is the baggage like you said.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> I've read that, too and I wonder if some of it stems from second marriages that were affairs to start, the first marriage ended (because of the affair) and the affair couple thought they'd find bliss. I also think that people who get married a second time, didn't spend enough time working on themselves and healing from the first marriage, so they jump into the next relationship, thinking the first marriage was the problem or they married the wrong person.


I like your point of view. When we have an aggrieved spouse here we start singing the old song about the affair was not the fault of the aggrieved spouse. No matter what, the betrayed spouse is innocent.

In fact this is only half true. If a TAM member points out that the wandering spouse warned the betrayed spouse that eating potato chips in bed was a deal breaker, we tell the betrayed that no, it is not their fault their spouse left.

Some folks have a higher tolerance for potato chips on the sheets than others. (I trust you all understand that "potato chips" is a stand in for some other fault such as beating the wandering spouse, going on long weekends with the guys and and no wives, or whatever.)

As Deirdra notes, the betrayed spouse often does, in fact, have some responsibility for what went on. And that helps doom the second marriage.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

sidney2718 said:


> I like your point of view. When we have an aggrieved spouse here we start singing the old song about the affair was not the fault of the aggrieved spouse. No matter what, the betrayed spouse is innocent.
> 
> In fact this is only half true. If a TAM member points out that the wandering spouse warned the betrayed spouse that eating potato chips in bed was a deal breaker, we tell the betrayed that no, it is not their fault their spouse left.
> 
> ...


Um, not sure I meant it like that. lol I don't ever think that the betrayed spouse should be at fault for their spouse cheating. Cheating is a choice. But, I will say that it takes two to make a marriage work, and two to make it not work.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

jb02157 said:


> From what I've known and read this seems to be the path of every divorce. The result is rarely much better than keep a bad marriage going.


You continue to confuse the path with the destination.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

browser said:


> You continue to confuse the path with the destination.


wha? The pathway leads to the destination....? One relates to the other.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

jb02157 said:


> wha? The pathway leads to the destination....? One relates to the other.


Let me explain. @jb02157

Most guys (some gals too but rarely) suffer dire consequences in a divorce. They typically lose a lot of money and assets, they don't get to see their children much, they don't have much disposable income after paying support, and they go through a whole bunch of forced change and adjustment to a new life- which sucks but you seem to be forgetting that everything that happens in a divorce is temporary. 

Relationships with children can often be rebuilt- sometimes not- but either way you adjust. Money lost during a divorce can be earned back again. That crappy apartment which is all you can afford can be upgraded after the support payments end. 

A new partner can be found and a new relationship can be established. Sometimes when you meet someone new, by sharing expenses with them you can improve your standard of living before you even get out from under the divorce imposed financial constraints. 

(In my case I live with my girlfriend who makes good money and owns her home - but I had enough money even after my own obligations and had a nice condo before I sold it after moving in with her). 

That's the destination- happiness, financial security, new relationships.

All the other crap that is preventing you from pulling the plug on your failed marriage and the daily misery you often post about- that's the path to the destination and it doesn't go on forever.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

I know that everyone has baggage, but instead of thinking of it like that, I'd like to think of it more as learning experiences. I've learned a lot from my marriage, and if it doesn't work out, I won't hate him, and I don't think he'll hate me. Going forward, I would take those learning experiences into future relationships, and be more proactive when issues arise. Instead of fighting and arguing, then turning a blind eye, I would sit down and calmly discuss. If that didn't work to reach a conclusion that worked for us both, seeing a professional to get an issue resolved would be the next step. Instead of waiting years, building resentments, and letting the love recede to just thinking of a partner as a buddy or roommate.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

Ursula said:


> I've learned a lot from my marriage, and if it doesn't work out, I won't hate him, and I don't think he'll hate me.


 @Ursula, people who get divorced don't typically hate the person because things didn't work out. 

They hate each other because they become fighters in a ring grabbing for as much of the "marital assets and support" pie as they can possibly get. 

Two people who used to be best friends are suddenly adversaries because they both want the same thing and there doesn't seem to be enough for both of them. Throw a few kids into the mix and a battle over custody of visitation and the seeds for intense conflict are planted. 

I recall that even though things "weren't working out" in my marriage, we were still civil and even friendly in the beginning of the end. She said things like "I won't hurt you in the divorce, I just want to be able to live comfortably".

She refused to work during the divorce even though she had an LPN license, and at one point was demanding $13,000 per month in child and spousal support while driving a wedge between my children and myself by saying how cheap I was for not just handing it over without putting up a fight and making them struggle financially. 

Things weren't too friendly after that. I don't like to use the word "hate" but I was getting close.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

@browser, yikes, that sounds like an awful and unfair situation! And, what you say is true; that couples will fight for shared assets, etc. in the event of a divorce. In our case, we're easy-peasy. We each look after our own finances, everything is in my name as it's my home; he never wanted his name put on anything. No kids, very little was purchased since marriage (bedroom suite which I'd happily let him have, treadmill, which I would like, his car which belongs to him). We also have a prenup, which includes things like my business startups, my dogs, his pension, etc. It all would go to the respective owner of those things. So yeah, we're an easy case, but it doesn't make it any less hard to wrap one's head around.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

@Ursula

It wasn't all that unfair, I make good money. 

In fact, the divorce laws in my state changed right after my divorce was final and more specific guidelines and formulas were put in place to reduce discretion of the court which resulted in some really unfair and unpredictable rulings, and also when more strict guidelines are put in place there's less "wiggle room" and less for the two parties to fight about so the attorneys can't run the legal bills up so high. Attorneys rallied and lobbied against the guidelines and they always do when legislators try to put them into action- because they are greedy, selfish pigs who suck money out of their clients to pay for their yachts and vacation homes and private college educations for their children while us divorcing parties are lucky to be able to keep a roof over our heads. Sorry I went on a tangent there.

Anyway if I was to get divorced under those new guidelines she probably would have gotten something closer to what she was originally asking for. As it is, she got a lot but it wasn't that much.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

browser said:


> Let me explain. @jb02157
> 
> Most guys (some gals too but rarely) suffer dire consequences in a divorce. They typically lose a lot of money and assets, they don't get to see their children much, they don't have much disposable income after paying support, and they go through a whole bunch of forced change and adjustment to a new life- which sucks but you seem to be forgetting that everything that happens in a divorce is temporary.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if I agree. There is some things that absolutely do remain forever such as the financial consequences. I cannot live off of 30% of my income. I wouldn't even be able to live with 70% of my income. That's the facts. I refuse to live my life any lesser than I do now if divorced. I'm not going to penalize myself or my children for what my wife did. That's not negotiable. Does that impact the destination, yes. I do not think that right away or 5 or even 10 years from now the financial impact would go away. I would never be able to buy another home that would be acceptable to me. I simply do not agree that I would either be happy or financially stable in the future if I divorced. I've been over and over the numbers myself, with accountants and lawyers and the result is the same each time. I have maybe 10 more working years left. If everything gets taken away now I would never be able to build the amount I would need to finish my kids college and retire even at double my salary. 

As far as new relationships go, that's something I've thought over and over about and each time the conclusion is that I would not want another relationship where I would have to risk this happening again to me. To me, it just isn't worth the risk. 70% of second marriages don't last. Those are odds I just don't like. I'm sure there's many many wonderful terrific women out there, but I'm not going to risk everything at a shot at a relationship with one. With my luck, I'd get stuck even worse than I did before. 

I'm sure you don't agree with a word I've said along with probably 90% of TAMers but this is the world the way I see it and I really don't have many ways to play my cards now. I admit it's my fault for waiting too long, but I bet on rebuilding what we had and lost.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

jb02157 said:


> I'm not sure if I agree. There is some things that absolutely do remain forever such as the financial consequences. I cannot live off of 30% of my income. I wouldn't even be able to live with 70% of my income. That's the facts. I refuse to live my life any lesser than I do now if divorced.


The support payments are temporary and the general trend of the courts is less support for shorter duration, something around 1/3 to 1/2 the marriage duration (unless your marriage is long duration and you live in a state that is prone to award permanent maintenance). So you'd have to tighten your belt for a period of time but not forever. And if you meet someone new who has money your financial situation will naturally improve.



jb02157 said:


> I'm not going to penalize myself or my children for what my wife did.


Dude your life is one of daily misery, you've posted this time and time again. You're ALREADY penalized from what your wife did, and continues to do. That will eventually take a toll, I think you underestimate the impact it will have over time, not only on you but on your kids too, unless they're completely shielded from the conflict and dysfunction which is unlikely. Kids are smarter than we think. 



jb02157 said:


> I do not think that right away or 5 or even 10 years from now the financial impact would go away. I would never be able to buy another home that would be acceptable to me.


I obviously don't know your specifics or your finances so I will just have to take your word for it that you would be so close to broke and have so little to live on and your credit is so poor that you could never, ever buy a new house and get a mortgage. But having read many of your posts I'm going to wager a guess that you have a much more negatively skewed view than reality would suggest.



jb02157 said:


> I simply do not agree that I would either be happy or financially stable in the future if I divorced. I've been over and over the numbers myself, with accountants and lawyers and the result is the same each time. I have maybe 10 more working years left. If everything gets taken away now I would never be able to build the amount I would need to finish my kids college and retire even at double my salary.


Ok, so you did the numbers and you've had neutral third parties agree that your financial situation would be dire. So you're going to stay with this woman in misery for the rest of your life, because you like your house? As far as retirement goes, she'll get roughly half of your retirement fund, but then you wouldn't be paying to support her anymore. And again, although you can't bank on it, there are lots of available women in your age group that have their own retirement funds. 



jb02157 said:


> As far as new relationships go, that's something I've thought over and over about and each time the conclusion is that I would not want another relationship where I would have to risk this happening again to me.


Well, you are your own worst enemy to simply dismiss the possibility of ever meeting someone else and getting involved. With that sort of self defeating attitude I understand why staying put makes the most sense to you, but it doesn't have to be that way.



jb02157 said:


> 70% of second marriages don't last. Those are odds I just don't like.


Who says you have to ever get married again? I sure don't.



jb02157 said:


> I'm sure there's many many wonderful terrific women out there, but I'm not going to risk everything at a shot at a relationship with one. With my luck, I'd get stuck even worse than I did before.


Like I said, you're already the judge, jury, executioner, and victim of your own future. Isn't your avatar the main character from the Shawshank Redemption? If he thought like you do, he'd never have tried to escape, he'd just be an eternal prisoner.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

browser said:


> The support payments are temporary and the general trend of the courts is less support for shorter duration, something around 1/3 to 1/2 the marriage duration (unless your marriage is long duration and you live in a state that is prone to award permanent maintenance). So you'd have to tighten your belt for a period of time but not forever. And if you meet someone new who has money your financial situation will naturally improve.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I told you you wouldn't agree. You obviously look at things way differently than I do. I find no merit at all to any of your arguments.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

jb02157 said:


> I told you you wouldn't agree. You obviously look at things way differently than I do. I find no merit at all to any of your arguments.


This is sad. I can relate to where you are. I thought my divorce would ruin me financially, I didn't think there was any way I'd get through it unscathed. My anxiety was through the roof, I was so depressed it affected how I functioned on a daily basis. For a while I was medicated. I was in a deep dark hole and say no way out. 

That was in 2006. 

It took a few years but things started slowly turning around. 10 years later I'm in a really good place, with a great woman and just about clear of any remaining support obligations, with money in the bank and retirement about 10 years away. 

Now your financial situation may not be as positive. I get that, but one thing is indisputable. Having the victim mentality will only work against you, regardless of what you choose to do or not do to improve your situation.

There are clearly things within your power to change that have nothing whatsoever to do with finances and everything to do with fear, which is what holds everyone back if they allow it to get the best of them.


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