# Wife has lost feelings for me and is having an emotional affair...



## Bucksinnc

In May I will be married for six years and we have two boys, five and three.

I've been reading a lot of things from various places about my problems, and decided it would be best to just throw them out there and get some outside views/advice/opinions.

A few years ago my wife and I were having problems. I was lazy, unappreciative, just overall complacent. I showed no interest in things she enjoyed, didn't want to go do things with the family unless it was my idea, etc. She's not great at speaking up, so I didn't really notice and it just got worse and worse until we had a big blow-up. We argue every so often, but a huge fight? It just never happened before. I promised to be better, I said I understood, and for awhile I did better, not great, but better, and then it just went back to normal.

Some time later, another blow-up, and same end results as before.

It happened one more time after that, and I have been doing better since, but still not enough. I still struggled being motivated to get out and do things as a family. I KNOW it would make her happy, and for some reason I've been too pigheaded to change.

Fast forward to this year. I've been suspecting that she's been having an emotional affair with an old co-worker. She works for the same company still, but in a different building, now holding the same title he has. I told her a few weeks ago that I thought he had feelings for her and she assured me that wasn't the case. 

Last weekend we sat down and talked, she said she was unhappy and truly at her wits end, she didn't want to try anymore because she didn't think anything would ever change, she didn't feel loved and felt emotionally dead. She said she could tell I was trying harder, but everything I did just felt like I was only doing it because we talked. She felt as if I was doing the "easier" things so I could show progress without really trying. I wasn't doing those things for those reasons, but I admitted I still wasn't trying hard enough. I felt like we were having the most honest conversation we've ever had (no arguing/fighting, just talking). She said it would be extremely difficult to recover, but she was willing to try one last time, but she was very adamant that this was the last chance she had in her emotionally. Somewhere in the conversation I brought up my feelings that she was having an emotional affair and she said, "I would NEVER do that to you".

Yesterday I asked if I could use the computer for a minute, she said "Ok, let me log off my e-mail for you". She NEVER has done that before. I get on the computer all the time and her info is up on the screen. So this made me immediately suspicious. I logged on her Yahoo account, clicked on the conversation tag, and saw a conversation she'd been having last weekend with the guy. He mentioned many times in his conversation that he had feelings for her, she told him she needed to try to work on her relationship with me, but that he made her very happy and that together they needed to take things "one day at a time". Also including that while I was out of town next week that maybe they could get together and hang out somewhere.

I immediately confronted her. I wasn't angry, I didn't yell, but I was completely devastated. She is NOT the type of person to do this sort of thing, but I not only pushed her there, but she was willing to look me in the eyes and flat-out lie about it. I told her if she really was willing to give me one last chance that she could NOT be talking to this guy, because she was giving him her emotions and that's not giving me a fair shot. She agreed, said she would absolutely cut him off, and she truly wanted things to work.

Later last night we were talking some more and she got up and started pacing. Eventually saying she couldn't do it, she tried to convince herself she could try to make things work, but she just couldn't do it. She asked for some space for the evening, which I gave her by staying with my brother for the night.

This morning we met and talked. I told her we should seek counseling. She said she was willing to talk to someone, but would make no promises and said she felt there is very little hope for us to get through this. She also said she was going to stay with her mom for now because she needs some space. I told her with us having kids I thought it was a mistake and we could still give each other space while living under the same roof. She agreed, we all went and had lunch together, and then she went to her mom's with the kids for the afternoon and decided we would try to give each other space for awhile. In the course of the conversation I mentioned again cutting contact with "the guy", she said she would try, but it would not be easy for her to do.

I sat up all last night literally shaking, my stomach is in knots, and I haven't eaten much. I can't think straight right now. I want to do whatever it takes to get my wife back. However, I'm worried that I'm not going to be able to handle not being able to talk to or see her, to not know what's going on in her mind. I don't want to be overbearing, I want to give her the space she desires, but my head is spinning so much I don't know if I'm able. Not to mention next week I'm supposed to be visiting family out of state... my trust is severely shaken, how can I be away that long without bugging the hell out of her and pushing her away?

Am I doing the right things (beyond the last paragraph)? I'm sure in this long, drawn out story I've missed a couple key points, but it's mostly all there. Is giving her space the right thing? Is there anything I need to handle differently? Any advice on how to NOT go nuts while giving her space?

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer. I can't reply immediately to this thread as I'm going to go have dinner with my mom and brother for his birthday, but I will be back on this evening.


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## Toffer

for the love of god man, reschedule your trip 

I am low on battery bit will post more later and I'm sure others will add to this
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mommyofthree

I may be the only person who thinks this. I get that you say or feel that you were unappreciative and complacent etc. but thats not a free pass for her to stray and right now she seems to hold all the cards while you get to sit, wait and pine for her decision on what she wants although shes the one who took this to another level.

Im having trouble with the idea that she is the one who didn't think about what she was doing to the family when she started with this guy but she is in 100% control of where you go from here and is continuing to converse with him while YOU wait.

Do not go on the trip.Postpone it and stay home.
She is still undecided on what she wants and if you go she may decide to spend the time with him. In the end its not going to matter I guess since she is going to do what she wants but you being away may make the choice to go to him easy.


My husband is like you say you are....distant,does nothing with me unless it was his idea,unappreciative.Mine also only hugs me or kisses me if he wants sex BUT as unhappy as I may be at times I will not stray. I will however speak to him (have done many times  ) and if nothing changes will then decide to stay or go,no EA though....Its not fair to him. If I was ever to stray,I would fully expect him to stand up ,respect himself and either leave me or give me an ultimatum one way or the other and not leave it in my hands to decide while I keep talking to the other guy .


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## tokn

You should have put this in the coping with infidelity forum. There are many smart people there and a lot have had experience in it.

Ask a mod to move it for you.

Now my 2 cents.

First off, regardless how bad the relationship is the affair is not acceptable. You need to be firm and stand your ground, no exceptions, she needs to end it with him for any chance you two will have together.

Second you can't be afraid to lose her, the more afraid of losing her, the more it will drive her away.

Sounds like the EA maybe close to a physical if it isn't already.

The last thing you want to do is give her the space she requires as this separation will be used to take test the relation with the OM.

If you can postpone change your trip I would definitely do so, if you can't then you need to protect yourself prepare that this EA could get PA. Get key loggers install on the PCs, get Voice Activated Recorders (VAR), access to her emails, phone records, turn on locator service on her phone if you can. Check her cell phones.

All the signs of PAs are there or its getting very close.

But in order for all this to work, you also need to work on the relationship as well, its not good enough that you recognize the deficiencies in the relationship, you need to address them as well. But again it is not a free pass for having an affair.


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## snap

The affair either went physical or about to go any minute, I agree.


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## warlock07

She couldn't even give you the decency to stop talking to the other guy. That is incredible. She was setting you up for failure while telling you that it was the last chance. That she could not stop talking to him was the proof of her real intentions. You will have no chance of repairing your marriage while she is still talking to this guy. You are in some deep sh!t. 

If the other guy is married/in a relationship, expose him. Her going to her Mom might well be her plan to continue the affair unabated. You need to start mentally preparing for divorce. And start marriage counselling only after she stops talking to the other guy. With her continuing the relationship with the other guy, your relationship is doomed anyway


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## MrK

Let her go. She's gone. Fix yourself for you and your next relationship. They don't come back under the best of circumstances, and your wife's circumstances are anything but good. You see that the problem was you. That is good. Next time you want to fall into your old habits, remember that it forced away the one person in the world that was most important to you. You will see it's not worth it.

Start reading up on the 180. Make yourself a better person. Live your life for you and your kids. Just ignore any of the parts about her seeing a change in you and coming back. It doesn't happen. Don't expect it.

Sorry, but it's over. Let her go. Let her date this other man while you are gone. Go ahead and snoop when you come back to try and see if they consumated their relationship while you were gone, but make it obvious you don't give a ****. The one thing I would LOVE from my wife is to see this slightest bit of jealousy when I go out with my friends. Nothing. It BUGS me. Back off. Let her live her life. You owe her that. Then you can begin repairing yours.


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## AngryandUsed

I think you should sit her down and have a open, direct communication with her. But before that

Ensure that it was only EA. Any form of A is not acceptable. However, since you are in marriage and have kids, it is better to collect evidences before you confront.


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## TDSC60

She is in an EA for sure even though she says she would never do that to you. 

She is cake-eating. Not quite ready to end the marriage, but at the same time, not quite ready to totally commit to the OM. She is stringing both of you along. Her wanting some time apart to "think" is her excuse to meet with him. She cannot "work on the marriage" while still in an affair with the OM so MC is a waste of time and money at this point. Your wife has all but given up on the marriage, she just has not figured out how she want to end things with you. She thinks she is in love with the OM. If she has not gone PA with him - she is considering it. 

At this point you need to tell her "I love you very much and want our family to stay together. But I cannot be in a marriage with three people involved. Because you will not stop contact with your lover, I have no choice but to file for divorce. I hope he is worth it and that you are happy with him." Then contact an attorney and file.

This may wake her up or it may be what she wants at this point. Either way you will know. 

Filing for divorce does not mean you have to go through with it. It can be stopped at anytime during the process if she comes back to reality.

You then need to talk to her only about details of the split. Finances, kids, who pays for what.


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## ArmyofJuan

Bucksinnc said:


> I want to do whatever it takes to get my wife back.


Really? Because...


> However, I'm worried that I'm not going to be able to handle not being able to talk to or see her, to not know what's going on in her mind.


That may be what it takes. She is in a full EA and will not give it up without a fight. The more you try to keep her away from him, the more she will want him. 

She is already addicted to the affair and the nicer you are to her; the more resentful she will be of you. The odds of her just giving up the affair and working on the marriage is probably less than 1%.

This isn't something that happened overnight; she had months to mentally prepare for it and to emotionally detach from you. Whether you like it or not, she is most likely going to pursue this affair and there's very little you can do to stop it. I was in this position before.

You can’t be passive; you have to be stern and as alpha as possible. You let her know that you know where this is heading and if she crosses the line and makes this a PA that you will divorce her no questions asked so think long and hard about that. She sees the marriage and you as bad because her affair is clouding her judgment. Probably shouldn’t bother even telling her that, being in an A also makes you irrational so using logic is pointless. As a matter of fact, you have the best luck using reverse psychology because they instinctively will want to do the opposite of what you want or say. 

This isn’t going to be easy but if you use the “Tough Love” approach and take a hard line with her you may be able to keep it from going PA. Let her know you are not scared of a D and you will be fine without her.

Also find out if he is married and expose him.


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## bandit.45

Somebody post the 180 link for this po boy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel

There are parts of this story that are eerily similar to mine.

Your best bet is to act strong, be a man, do manly chores around the house, act confident, hit the gym, act protective of your wife, pull out the chair for her when she sits, hold the door open, etc. Put on the best act you can that shows how strong a man you are and that you are here to protect your family.

I disagree with going cold here. Going cold is what helped get him here. Confident and strong in himself and his role- not overly affectionate or begging or pleading. Confident, strong, calm. 

Cancel your trip - do not separate or give her space - space just gives her more opportunity to talk to this guy. Go into protect mode. This worked for me, big time.


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## Eli-Zor

bandit.45 said:


> Somebody post the 180 link for this po boy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


180 in posts below.


Read the newbie thread , find the OM's parents, wife family and expose the affair.
Do not leave home or let her take the children.
Understand that she is deep in the affair fog and anything she says should be ignored.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Link below

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

The 180 

Fence Sitters
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000

She is deep into an EA. She must go total NC to withdraw from him. She probably needs to quite her job to do this. I did BTW.

Do not give her space. She is wanting to isolate you so she can have her affair. If it is not yet physical it will be very very soon. She will seal the deal to solidify him as her choice. 

Do not go on the trip if you want to keep her. 
Tell her if she leaves that you will be filing for a divorce. She must go NC with this guy immediately and stay with you together to work on the marriage.

Despite you having your share of the marriage issues, to be sure there is history re-writing here. She has to daemonize you so she can justify / reconsile her affair.

I find the comment on your changing based on the chat to be very telling. So you communicate and you actually act on this and critisized for your motives. If you did not react the way you did you would have been critisized for not listening or caring. She is telling you what your motives are.

If she walked out the door I would consider contacting her HR department and tell them you are upset that your wife is having an affair at work. This is part of exposure. I for sure would see a lawyer and file.

This EA just seems way down the road already. They can explode from an inappropriate / unfaithful level to blatant cheating virtually overnight. They reach a critical mass.

Be prepared to let her go. It is also the only way you have a chance at keeping her. You have to do everything you can to disrupt he going to the OM. You cannot control her but you can influence the situation by your actions. You need to protect yourself.


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## CantSitStill

I did the same thing your wife did pretty much same story as my husband and I, she will not stop talking to the other man til she feels ready. Hopefully she will come to her senses as I did. Do not take her back till she totally cuts contact with him...for now see a lawyer, stop being nice to her..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I did fall back in love with hubby..I stopped all contact with the OM and hubby and i are working hard to reconsile.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bucksinnc

I talked to a couple I know last night that went through something similar, which helped me tremendously. A lot of the thoughts/ideas they had were similar to some mentioned here, I'm working on refocusing my mind to making ME happy (a bit more about that down this post). That said...

So, without any further communication from me about it, she talked to him yesterday and cut him off completely.

We had a short conversation today (she was home all day after work, but other than this conversation I tried to keep my emotions in check and not talk about "us" more than necessary) and during it I asked her if she'd talked to him at all in the last couple of days, and that's when she told me.

She says she did it more for her than for me, as she's "trying to find herself" and she doesn't need someone like him around her. We also talked more about MC and though she said before she was willing to talk to someone, she seemed a little more open to the whole thing today. She's still adamant that she's not sure anything will fix "us" however.

It may not come across from my previous post, but before this incident I've never had any reason not to trust her. The only time she was ever dishonest was when she was withholding her frustration and loss of feelings. She hates confrontation (it's true at work as well, which is why she struggles as a manager at times), which keeps a lot bottled up.

I'm not willing to give up on us. If I give up I will always wonder "what if". If things end up not working out then so be it. If she goes back to talking to him, then it's over... and while I won't like it, I will accept it. 

For what it's worth, when she's having "her space", she's either at home with the kids while I hang out with friends/family or she's visiting her family with the kids. Since I work from home and see the kids all the time, I don't want to deprive her of the little time she gets with them every day.

I'm still taking my trip. If she sees him or talks to him while I'm away, then I feel she would have done it anyways and I will walk away. This is a very important trip and I don't feel as though I can cancel it.

For now I'm not pushing things, I'm not saying "I love you", I'm not asking, pleading, begging for anything. We'll still have brief conversations about "us", but I'm more concerned about working on making myself happier despite how she feels right now, and while today wasn't easy by any stretch, it was ten times better than yesterday. I accomplished a lot today and I am proud of the results, even without her praise. My emotions still overwhelmed me at times today, but I do feel clearer than I did yesterday. I was running on pure emotion and I thought I was going to explode.

I will continue to update my situation as things progress. Please continue to offer any advice you might have. I'm not shutting out any reasonable ideas, even if it sounds at times like I am. I think this thread can serve as a reality check for me, which is something I need.


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## sisters359

If she has really cut contact with the guy, you have a chance. 

The downside is, she is going to be trying to figure out if going back with you is worth it. Having kids together is a huge thing in your favor. But, on the other hand, if she was operating as an emotionally independent person (not relying on you, but on family and friends) before she became involved in the EA, then she may be asking herself if she isn't better off single with the chance of something better in her future. Feeling that she would be better off alone is the true risk here if she has been wise enough to realize that moving from one man to the next is just plain stupid. 

So be the best person you can be and do not smother her. If she can see that you are smart and happy and competent on your own, she may begin to think you really have changed. If you shirked responsibilities in the past, remember that this is NO time to make a mistake/slip up/forget/do a crappy job. Do everything you decide it is appropriate to do with the mindset of showing yourself that you are really the kind of guy worth someone's commitment. Even if she does not buy in and you end up going separate ways, you will be a better person for it. 

Good luck.


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## tokn

Since you are bettering yourself,

Look at the link to the 180, it may help you become the better person and find the new happier you.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/24796-just-let-them-go-16.html#post536041


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## Will_Kane

You can tell her you love her without sounding needy. You should let her know that you love her, you want to stay married to her, you've been through a lot together already, you want to improve yourself, and you want to improve your marriage and make it really good, BUT you are not willing to tolerate an emotional affair. I would tell her something like this once or twice a day, first thing in the morning and last thing at night, in a strong, firm way and not bring up anything about the relationship during the day. Show her no neediness or weakness. Show her nothing but a confident man who loves his wife but is not afraid of losing her.


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## Will_Kane

Maybe this is just a matter of semantics, but this has been my observation:

Usually when a spouse says they need "space" they mean that they need you out of the way to communicate/see the potential affair partner.

When a spouse who is not contemplating cheating needs time alone to think, they usually say they need "alone" time or "me" time.


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## Entropy3000

> This is a very important trip and I don't feel as though I can cancel it.


Life is about priorities. There is no job that is more important than my marriage. Just sayin.


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## CantSitStill

Ok the good news is she stopped contact with OM. This might sound weird but for now do not get too emotional around her..maybe not for a couple days..with my situation I felt that hubby didn't love me, only loved the person he wanted me to be..well I was wrong..he made alot of changes and I was just afraid it wasn't real but he's the best, been wonderful for months and it took time for me to see it but when I got to my lowest point an.d was ready to check into the mental hospital he totally kn.ew that somethiing was wrong out of the blue while he was at work and texted me, calmed me, got me out of hyperventalating and took great care of me, this was a few days after I left, when I left he was cold twords me for a couple days and I needed that to be honest, hard to explain us women..I really do hope the best for you and that you can reconsile as we did..she just needs to see the grass is not greener on the other side but most important-she needs to fall back in love with you, otherwise it would be a false receonsilliation.. also if you get her back you must go to counseling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bucksinnc

CantSitStill said:


> Ok the good news is she stopped contact with OM. This might sound weird but for now do not get too emotional around her..maybe not for a couple days..with my situation I felt that hubby didn't love me, only loved the person he wanted me to be..well I was wrong..he made alot of changes and I was just afraid it wasn't real but he's the best, been wonderful for months and it took time for me to see it but when I got to my lowest point an.d was ready to check into the mental hospital he totally kn.ew that somethiing was wrong out of the blue while he was at work and texted me, calmed me, got me out of hyperventalating and took great care of me, this was a few days after I left, when I left he was cold twords me for a couple days and I needed that to be honest, hard to explain us women..I really do hope the best for you and that you can reconsile as we did..she just needs to see the grass is not greener on the other side but most important-she needs to fall back in love with you, otherwise it would be a false receonsilliation.. also if you get her back you must go to counseling.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I do my best to not get emotional around her and feel as though that will need to continue for awhile to not push her further away. Every so often something happens (usually something one of the kids says, damn them for being so sweet/innocent! Lol) that makes it harder, but overall I'm doing far better than I was even a day ago.

I will continue to do the things I should have done long ago. I will hope that she eventually realizes I can still be that man, but if she doesn't, like others have said, I will still be a better person in the end and hopefully can walk away with confidence in myself.


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## CantSitStill

Good for you, take care of yourself, glad you have the kids..you know that you can get the house and kids and get her for abandonment right? Well when I was away at my sister's house I talked to my lawyer and he told me that hubby will get both the house and kids because I left. Keep up with the positive attitude. I kn.ow this is hard, emotionally just about killed my husband. Why? Why did I do that to him?? Oh how my kids hated me and oh how I regret what I've done to him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem

And how do you no she has gone NC? Have you been verifying this? How do you know she hasn't taken it underground? That's very common you know after D-Day.

Now is the hard part, having to monitor her to ensure that NC holds. Its so very common for at least one of the affair partners to "fish" for renewed contact. It can be as simple as "How are you?" "Are you okay?" "Thinking of you", etc, etc. 

Remember, if OM tries to fish and she doesn't report it to you, then that's breaking NC because its a lie of omission.

These initial days of NC are CRITICAL. Now is the time to have the keylogger and the VAR.


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## tacoma

She just "stopped contact".
Out of the blue, of her own accord, and just informed you she has done this?

Didn`t happen OP.


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## bandit.45

Its gone underground. No wayward just up and stops contact. Now you're going to have to snoop and sleuth. Install a keylogger on her computer and hide a VAR in her car to catch her phone calls. Verify everything and trust nothing she tells you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bucksinnc

No need for the VAR, I have access to the cell phone account and see all calls/messages (not what was said of course, but I know if she's in contact). The real issue is: Does she talk to him via her work phone?

If it ends up that she has taken it underground, then I am comfortable saying that at this point, it's a lost cause. I may not find out right away, but I will find out.


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## Bucksinnc

Well, there's apparently a reason people come here to ask for honesty from an outside source.

My wife had to leave early for work today. She works for Brueggers and often has to leave early for catering orders. I believed her, as it happens often, and that was it.

I mentioned earlier that one of our kids is sick, she took his temperature this morning, but I wasn't sure if he got any medicine. I called her store, no answer. Waited a few minutes, still no answer. I hated to do it, but I got the kids, put them in the car, and drove out there...

No car in the parking lot. I call her, ask what's she's doing and told her no one answered at the store. She replied, "I was in the cooler and couldn't hear the phone."

I told her I was at her work. She got mad, said she couldn't believe I'd do that, she just went to talk to him, and it was the first time she met him behind my back, which I believe, but I told her that didn't excuse anything. She had promised to give me a chance to work on things and she didn't.

Know what's funny? I didn't cry (and I can be a crier, lol). I felt prepared for this possibility and now I will look to better myself. It's a long road ahead, it's going to be rough, but I know what I need to do.

Thanks for the honesty everyone. I think I'm done looking at this thread for now, but if there's anything you have to say, feel free to add it and I will come back later and take a look.

What a world.


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## bandit.45

Go see a lawyer my friend. He's your only hope now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Will_Kane

*she just went to talk to him, and it was the first time she met him behind my back, which I believe*

What did she need to talk to him about at 4am?

This is almost definitely a physical affair. She is almost definitely having sex with him. This is not the first time she met him behind your back. She is using her job as her way of meeting him. She talks to him at work and sets up meetings with him while you think she is at work.

Her need for "space" really was about being able to talk to the other man and see the other man more easily without you being aware of it, not her needing time to think and "find herself."

She is making plans with the other man to give him a tryout as your replacement.

Going forward, understand, ALL HER WORDS ARE LIES. BELIEVE ONLY HER ACTIONS.

Tell her you will file for divorce unless she meets your conditions. Tell her you need the truth, no contact with the other man, transparency in all her communications and your ability to verify her whereabouts at all times, and remorse. Do not believe anything she tells you that doesn't make sense. If you believe her affair is not physical or that it was the first time they met behind your back, you already are believing things that do not make sense.

If she tells you it is not physical, do not believe it. The only way you may be able to believe it is not physical at this point is your wishful thinking or if she takes a polygraph. If she doesn't agree to your conditions, file for divorce. Force her to choose now. She is more likely to choose you now than later. The longer you allow her affair to continue, the less likely you will be able to save your marriage. Consider exposing her affair to your families and the other man's wife/girlfriend, if there is one. They will pressure her to give up the other man and work on her marriage.

You may not be able to save your marriage no matter what you do. She has let you know she is unhappy with you many times and you admittedly have failed to change, or at least change enough. That doesn't excuse the affair, but it will make it more difficult to save your marriage. By forcing her to choose between you or him now, you at least save yourself the agony of months or maybe even years of her lying to you while she tries to "find herself." So, if she doesn't meet your conditions, file for divorce. You can stop the process at any time if she later agrees to your conditions.


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## Will_Kane

_She works for Brueggers and often has to leave early for catering orders. I believed her, *as it happens often*, and that was it._

Do you think she's really been going to work all those times?


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## Bucksinnc

(So much for staying away...)

Yes, I believe this is the first time and don't think I'm kidding myself by believing that. 

I read her communications with him and from that alone know that this is a new thing.

This is what I learned from reading her conversations (NOT from her mouth): She had a work dinner three weeks ago, which he also attended, and that was the first hint she ever got that he was interested in her. He mentioned he had feelings for her for awhile, but kept them from her until that night, when after drinking and finding out she was unhappy at home, he was able to finally say something. The first conversations she had with him that went further than that (her showing interest back) happened at the end of last week.

Since then: Saturday we talked about our future. We were together most of the day, other than me going out that night (left around the time she was heading to bed). Her conversations continued with him that night.

Sunday: We spent the entire day together. We did things as a family, she was never elsewhere.

Monday: She worked, and was with me afterward. A few texts between them, but she didn't "go into work early".

Tuesday: Same as Monday, went to work on time, a few texts back and forth. She was home with the family after work.

Wednesday: The day I "found out". The evening ended with her staying home with the kids and me going to stay with family.

Thursday: She was off work. Had the kids with her. Took them to school, went into work for an hour (I checked up on her), met up with me after, and we talked some more. We went to lunch as a family and then she took the kids to visit her family for the day.

Friday: Another day of work for her, not going in early, and after work she spent the entire day at home. She claimed she talked to him the day before about needing to stay away.

Today: Well, you know the rest. HE actually was at work when she went to see him this morning. I checked after finding out. I wanted to call and flip out on him, but I didn't. He answered the phone at work and I hung up, knowing that her saying she was there talking while he worked was at least truthful. She claimed my lack of trust and questions from the Friday drove her to go see him this morning, I told her she was trying to convince herself of that and obviously she has no desire to try to make things work right now.

So, yes, it's possible she saw him some other time this week without admitting it, but it seems to be more on the unlikely side. But I do know that it hasn't happened before this week. The conversations I read between them confirmed that.

I know after she's done working today we will inevitably talk, but it won't be the type of conversation we've been having. This morning was a huge reality check.

I don't want things to be over, but I refuse to live in a house where I have such serious questions about her honesty and I don't see how it's possible for that not to be the case right now. It will do nothing but make me miserable and I just refuse to do it. Where life takes us from here, I don't know. What I do know is that it's time for me to be a better me, be there as much as I can for my children for the tough road ahead, and understand that right now that's all I can influence.

My trip out of town is now cancelled. My kids are very disappointed, my brother will be when he finds out, but I just can't do it. This was MUCH MORE than a simple trip to see family, my brother has two kids he hasn't seen in about a year and he was coming with me. My kids were getting to see "Grandma Shirley" and "Grandpa", who are MY grandparents. They love the kids more than anything in this world and know they have very few chances left to see them... to deny them one of those chances breaks my heart.


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## tokn

What she says may or may not be truthful, I was once a cheater and you'd be surprise how we could find time to cheat even by not going to work early or staying late.

Lunch breaks, telling the partner I was going into work but calling into work, tell work I had to leave early, when there's a will there's a way.

Not saying this is her, but possibilities are there.

Like Will says Her actions are far more important than her words at this point.

As for your travel situation, how about your brother take the kids to see the grandparents since he was going to see the kids anyway?

This will also give you time alone with the spouse to work this through?

Sorry to hear it, best of luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem

Bucksinnc said:


> No need for the VAR, I have access to the cell phone account and see all calls/messages (not what was said of course, but I know if she's in contact). The real issue is: Does she talk to him via her work phone?
> 
> If it ends up that she has taken it underground, then I am comfortable saying that at this point, it's a lost cause. I may not find out right away, but I will find out.


The two biggest tools used in cheating are the secret email account and the secret cell phone, otherwise known as a burner phone. As HurtinTN, Thorburn, and others about that. You just have access to the cell phone that you know about. That's where the VAR comes in.


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## jnj express

Your wife is cheating, and being deceitful----BUT-----hopefully, maybe you got your wake up call------cuz from what you are writing---you haven't been much of a H.

You said in your last post---I think wed. she went to bed, and you went out---why did you need to go out----are you not her H., are you not part of the family---you should have been at home with your family-----also you seem to prefer, somewhat your family to your married family----your married family always COMES FIRST-----you seem to grudgingly have called off your trip, even as your mge., falls apart------I am not so sure you have things in the right order even yet.


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## CantSitStill

jnj are you saying this is all his fault? I disagree and people are allowed to leave their home, my gosh he's going thru hell right now!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## snap

Dude, she bangs him, and has been doing it for a while. There is ZERO chance that the first time you do a spot check coincides with her first ever sneak out for an "innocent" meet.


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## jnj express

Her cheating is her own deal---this very sh*tty, mge., BY HIS OWN ADMISSION IS HIS FAULT---and if you bother to READ---HE IS STILL BEING SELFISH

No she should not be cheating---but he has basically brought the cheating, and everything else---down on himself----at least that is what I am reading---if you find something different---let me know.


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## bandit.45

jnj express said:


> Her cheating is her own deal---this very sh*tty, mge., BY HIS OWN ADMISSION IS HIS FAULT---and if you bother to READ---HE IS STILL BEING SELFISH
> 
> No she should not be cheating---but he has basically brought the cheating, and everything else---down on himself----at least that is what I am reading---if you find something different---let me know.


You're dead wrong. So wrong I'm not even going to waste finger energy telling you why.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

wow..really? I mean so the dude wasn't a great husband..does he deserve what she is doing to him? really?? Are you the OM or something??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

by the way it is very common for the betrayed spouse to think it was their own fault because the wayward got their head so messed up..there is no excuse for cheating..yes maybe kick out a bad bad hubby or get counseling but not run in another mans arms.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jnj express

Hey bandit---why don't you READ THE ORIGINAL POST---then you explain to me---where you are coming from-----

Yes his wife is cheating, and she should have gone another route----but----by his own admission---he says he caused all of this---and for a long, long time---she tried to get him to change----so finger waver----you tell me, or you explain it to me-------

whether you like it or not----there are spouses who do cause/are responsible for the situation that causes their partners---to go astray---and this is one of them------READ his 1st post----there is no other way to interpret it.

And he is still messing up---by leaving at night to go out---by having her actually meet her lover, before he would call off a trip to see his family--when his mge. is crumbling all around him---
If you see it differently splain it to me---cuz what I am reading and writing---is what he was saying!!!!!!!

And keep your finger to yourself---if you can't be civil to others---here maybe you need to be elsewhere------no one was putting you down---everyone is ENTITLED to their own opinion---w/out you being a nasty JERK!!!!!!


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## TRy

jnj express said:


> Her cheating is her own deal---this very sh*tty, mge., BY HIS OWN ADMISSION IS HIS FAULT---and if you bother to READ---HE IS STILL BEING SELFISH
> 
> No she should not be cheating---but he has basically brought the cheating, and everything else---down on himself----at least that is what I am reading---if you find something different---let me know.


 You are wrong. When you read these boards, the one that cheats always finds a reason to blame shift. The reasons for blame shifting are always subjective such as saying that the spouse that they are cheating on "are lazy, unappreciative, just overall complacent". The one that is cheated on almost always buys into this blame shifting and tries to do better. They do this because they care and are trying to be a good partner. Just because the one being cheated on cares enough to try to make their partner happy, does not mean that they are a bad spouse. It the case if cheating, it just means that they are being played.

No one is perfect, yet cheaters judges their spouses by this standard without holding themselves accountable to the same standard. It is a game that the one being cheated on cannot win because the cheater does not want them to win, and the cheater holds themselves out as both the judge and jury. Blame shifting, history remaking, gaslighting, are just tools of the cheating trade. The OP should not buy into the cheater's script. Just because the OP cares enough to try to be a better husband, and just because the cheating spouse does not care enough to do the same, does not make the cheater the better person. In fact it actually means the exact opposite. The OP sounds like a good person, not perfect, but good.


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## calvin

jnj,you have to get a lot smarter even before I could call you stupid,the re-writting of marriage history,the blameshifting,sneaking around ,the lies and what about the kids? The BS sometimes actually believes its all their fault because they are so desperate to get the WS back.Marital problems are 50-50. Bucksinnc is not in the right frame of mind and is willing to take all the blame right now if that will get her back.I guess her kids are to blame also for her cheating,like I said,get smarter so I can pay you a compliment by calling you stupid.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kasus

jnj express said:


> Hey bandit---why don't you READ THE ORIGINAL POST---then you explain to me---where you are coming from-----
> 
> Yes his wife is cheating, and she should have gone another route----but----by his own admission---he says he caused all of this---and for a long, long time---she tried to get him to change----so finger waver----you tell me, or you explain it to me-------
> 
> whether you like it or not----there are spouses who do cause/are responsible for the situation that causes their partners---to go astray---and this is one of them------READ his 1st post----there is no other way to interpret it.
> 
> And he is still messing up---by leaving at night to go out---by having her actually meet her lover, before he would call off a trip to see his family--when his mge. is crumbling all around him---
> If you see it differently splain it to me---cuz what I am reading and writing---is what he was saying!!!!!!!
> 
> And keep your finger to yourself---if you can't be civil to others---here maybe you need to be elsewhere------no one was putting you down---everyone is ENTITLED to their own opinion---w/out you being a nasty JERK!!!!!!



Nice emphasis on the "jerk", how old are you?

The OP may have been at fault for events leading up to the affair, but the affair itself is not his fault. It's very simple in a marriage when there is a dispute/disconnection you should (in order):
1- talk/communicate through it
2- live with it in silence and resentment
3- seperate/divorce

Those are the only good moral choices. Can you honestly say that having an affair belongs in that list?


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## calvin

jnj,I wonder if you are a OM in someones relationship,maybe thats why you feel WS is justified in bring down the whole FAMILY..bonehead.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy

Confront the OM!
Sure your wife has her part and you will deal with your wife. Your nieghbors dog craps in your yard well you deal with the owner right? Well it is clear the OM has an interst in your wife and its time to show him his affection for your W may not be worth his while.

Granted your wife has an issue and she may even be the pursuer, but the fact remains that the OM and even his wife (if he has one) must be told that both you and your wife are making effort in repairing the marriage ( in her words she want one last chance) and his influence is getting in the way.

I would go as far a letting OM know you are about to lose everthing and once that happens then all bets or off, there is no telling what will come next.

In its most simplest from, confront the OM and ask about what your W has told him about her marriage, ask him if he is aware that she has told you about the effort (last chance thing) she has made in saving her marriage, ask him if he is at all concerned about being played or is it just about the sex? 

Face this POS, and expose this crap to his wife/GF, family, and any one else that will help you in supporting a marriage.

The bottom line, no matter what, make this affair as difficult and as inconvienent as possible, until OM is out of the picture and this can be confirmed, the dynamics of the marriage will be effected.

On a side note, your indifference and confidence will continue to make your W second guess her self and think twice, so keep it up.


Again there are some pros and con to confronting OM so no matter what, make a plan that suits your sitch and work the plan and keep up the good work in having the confidence in giving your WW the perception of what she is about to lose. 

You , me and many here already know begging for your marriage won't work, and being in limbo sucks so, again IMHO making the affiar as inconvienent and as uncomfortable as possible is a good approach, so expose it.


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## Shamwow

The A is certainly not his fault, but the important thing right now is for Bucks to take charge and revamp his life, his whole presence...for himself. All those changes you want to implement? Do them. For real. For real real. And not so your DW can see them, that is false. Do it for real and she'll see, along with everyone else, and most importantly, you will.

Bucks - I had many bad habits that contributed to my marriage flagging, but when everything went upside down and I discovered my ex's infidelity I jumped in with both feet and made serious changes, it had to be life-changing, and it was. Still divorced my DW, but the effects of the changes remain. You'll still struggle with old demons but make the changes. For you. If things work out w your DW, great. If not you'll have a massive head start in being who you want to be. I know it sounds like some self-help crap, but it really is as simple as living differently.

We know the pain you're in, and your DW is not treating you worth a damn. Your life will never be the same, treat it as such and create it how you would like it to be. If she is to be a part of it, then congrats. But either way start getting used to the idea of being single and live it up, because you need your confidence and independence more than anything right now. Good luck...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## snap

the guy said:


> I would go as far a letting OM know you are about to lose everthing and once that happens then all bets or off, there is no telling what will come next.


I disagree, a threat in writing is a very bad idea. If you are not prepared to follow up it's just pathetic, and if you are, you're leaving a paper trail.


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## mychoice

Pretty silly to degrade the discussion this way JNL. The posters that followed yours are right on the money.

As for his leaving his wife alone...I'm in agreement. There comes a time to find out where your spouse stands and what they will actually do to make it work. She has a great deal to attone for and so very much to prove. She should be quite motivated, should she not? The option? Babysitting your wife? Man, who wants or needs to be married to that? That ain't no partner in my book. Anyway, better sooner than later. 

As for Buck blaming himself, she can blame him all she wants but her options were numerous to avert such a hurtful, harmful and decimating chain of events.

Let's be clear here; there is NEVER a justifiable reason or cause to commit adultery...NEVER. There are a plethora of reasons to leave a relationship though. Frankly Buck's holding all of those cards right now. Maybe she ought to smarten up a bit. In my book she's FAR too late for that.

As for the OP...they are not at fault...EVER. They're NEVER to blame. They likely could have been anyone. "I" alone am responsible for "my" choices and "my" behaviors. They are mine alone and nobody can take them away or own them for me. They are my integrity or the lack thereof. I don't care how audacious a prospective affair partner might be, if I'm not available it just cannot happen. Therefore when my wife tried to blame the other person, let's just say that discussion was destroyed immediately. There was no way I was going to let her degrade herself to a 5 year old's maturity. That, aside from the fact I wasn't going to be treated as an idiot.

Most of this stuff is really quite pragmatic and, aside from the intillectual masturbation, we ALL know the difference between right and wrong. Getting on the offensive when discovered is not endearing...not one tiny bit. It only proves one is entrenched in their "right" to be entitled.

As for Buck...I'm with you buddy. Let her fight her way for once. Can she? I rather doubt it. She's long crossed the "deal breaker" stage and reporting to you does NOT earn her any cookies. Gees, she's not 6 years old, is she?


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## the guy

I stand corrected.
What the hell was I thinking?

Someting about the OM "showing interest" rubbed me the wrong way.

And yes I agree if you aren't ready to spend the dough to get out of the trouple it will cause you then stay away from hitting the OM.

As pathetic as it is, it can be empowering as you sit in jail waiting for bail.

This still shouldn't take away the value of exposure? Would we all agree that the SO of the AP should be informed (if there is one)?


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## the guy

What sucks is waywards aren't known for "smartening up" especially whan the A is still going on!


The time waywards smarten up is when NC is confirmed and enforced. And yes I made the mistake that enforcement can be made by confronting the OM. 

Let me regrees, confronting...empowering, but risky is a poor option, but exposing the affair has a better chance of having a nc commitment.


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## CantSitStill

You're so right and I agree with everything you said Theguy. I am-was the one who had an EA in our relationship and being out of our home and children and cutting contact with the OM really woke me up..We are actually lucky tho, our R is working and most don't. I remember the first week or 2 after coming back home I thought I was out of the fog but as time goes by I am learning so much..also lucky the affair didn't get physical otherwise the chances are even worse..hubby want to get his hands on the OM so bad and it scares me, don't want hubby in jail and lawsuit on him yet I do understand his feelings..he did have words with him via text but now the OM is blocked from our phones thank God.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TRy

the guy said:


> Confront the OM!


 I disagree. Nothing is more pathetic than asking the other man not to seduce your wife.


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## Jellybeans

I have wanted to write you since you posted this story but alas I'm on my mobile and can't write much. I was your wife. In a marriage where I was an afterthought. Neglected, married to someone who never had time for me, who prioritized everything with me on the bottom. He told me to my face he didn't care about what I thought, how I felt, refused mariage counselling, and told me this was how it was gonna be, if I didn't like it, tough luck. I tried for a long time to try to get him to see what he was doing was destroying our marriage. He did not care. He was unfaithful too. Then I did it. The cheating is on her. The constant neglect is on you. You have to let her know it stops with him completely and forever if there is any mariage. If she wantsit bad enough with you, she will cut it off w him. The hardest part for you is going to have to convince her that you will stop the behavior from your past. The longer it went on, the bigger the hill ..or mountain.. you face. You have to acknowledge what you've done. And then show her hrough actions, not words, that you get it. When a woman reaches this breaking point after being neglected so long, it is very hard to undo all the resentment she's built up and the loss of hope she has for the situation ..to unsee it...to undo it, to make her believe you actually care. My 2 cents.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

Dang. I wrote a novel on my fone
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Will_Kane

Bucks,

You are on the right track. You have the right attitude. The next few days are critical. She has children with you and never pictured herself as a divorced woman, but she probably no longer gets the butterflies over you like she probably is getting from the other man. The longer the thing with the other man lasts, the harder it will be to save your marriage.

You have to give her the ultimatum, the other man or you, if she stays in contact with the other man and doesn't give you full transparency, you will begin the divorce process. You must also tell her that this has been a HUGE WAKE-UP CALL for you and that you REALLY WILL CHANGE to fix whatever reasonable complaints she's had with you.

Tell her how much you love her, even though you haven't shown it all the time, tell her you don't want to lose her. But be strong, firm, and confident as you do this. Do not show neediness. It will break your heart to lose her, but you are not willing to accept lies, deceit, and her adulterous behavior.

She has been confiding in the other man, she is communicating with him, and he is aware that NOW is his time to act as well. He might come on very strong to your wife to push for a hook-up.

Tell her that even if she wants to leave you, it is wrong for her to commit adultery and her children will not respect her when they learn the truth someday. Tell her the other man is not honorable if he is willing to commit adultery with a married woman (I am assuming he is single?). Make sure you use the word "adultery" as much as possible. Ask her, when she's sees or hears about a married woman sneaking around with a single guy, committing adultery, does she think well of either of them?

At this point, you can't assume she's at work when she says she is, she could call in sick, show up late, leave early, use lunch hour to meet the other man. Do what you can to make sure they have as little contact as possible. She may vacillate back and forth at this point, not wanting to break her marriage vows when she talks to you, and not wanting to deny her infatuation (she may feel she is "in love") to the other man when she talks to him.

You have to start showing her the changes you are making and let her know they are not just temporary.


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## bandit.45

JNJ, I seem to have caught you on an off day. I'm having one too. Not feeling too well physically or emotionally. 

Your prior comments about the OM struck me as unreasonable because of the lack of empathy you seem to have for the OP and his situation. I have been in his situation....twice. And I can tell you firsthand how as the BS you spend half your time second guessing yourself and half the time hating your WS. Both times when my wife cheated I went through a period of self flagellation for the percieved wrongs I committed against her. Her betrayal caused me to doubt everything I thought I knew about myself, and in those desperate hours I found myself blaming myself for my faults and shortcomings and thinking of ways I could change that would make things right and make my wife love me. That's all fine and dandy when you have a solid baseline of rules to follow and measure yourself by. 

But that's not the way it works with waywards, because, you see, in order to protect themselves and in order to avoid facing up to their guilt, they throw off the game by constantly changing the rules and manipulating the baseline to keep the morality of the situation in constant flux. The loyal spouse, in his/her state of shock and emotional upheaval, is mentally unable to keep up with the constant changing of the rules by the wayward. So they revert back to what they can handle: self reflection and self blame. 

That is what is happening to our OP, and despite his many self confessed flaws I feel for him. 

You on the other hand are only adding to the swirl of the whirlpool by blaming the OP. Its disheartening and disingenuous I think, nor is it productive to attack fellow posters. 

I was not waving a finger at you, only saying I was not going to waste finger energy replying to a misbegotten post by a well meaning but obviously inexperienced fellow poster. 

I don't know you from adam JNJ, nor do I know the OP, but judging from what I have read from both of you, I'd rather spend Easter dinner with him than you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

Bandit, the OP himself admits to f-cking up his marriage with his behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

Jellybeans said:


> Bandit, the OP himself admits to f-cking up his marriage with his behavior.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And I'm saying Buck is going to go along with whatever his wife says about him at his point in the game because he is emotionally desperate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

You were saying how the OP wasn't at fault. Least, that's how I interpreted that. Anyway this threads getting derailed. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

50% at fault for the state of his marriage? Absolutely. Hell it could all be true and he was 90% responsible. His wife could have had every right to walk out on him and be perfectly justified. Instead, she flipped to another man. That's 100% her. 100% wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

I think everyone agrees she's responsible for cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

OP, come back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy

I'm going to generalize here, we all f*ck up our marraiges, and your spouse take the easy way out by looking for others to validate them, thats why we're here.


I think there is a certian respect that goes along with confronting OM. Sure there is dgree that meets each sitch, but IMO there has to be an acknowledgement that a dude is crossing the line when messing around with anpother guys wife.

In my case there would have to be a town hall meeting that would fit the amout of OM and OM want to be's, where as I would need to stand up at a podium/stage and adress a large crowd....sorry but true!


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## jnj express

For all of you---who want to attack me---you can do what you want, its a free, open forum, to write what you want----but if any of you bother to read, and actually respond to what is written, that seems to be another story

If you read all my posts---you will see that in probably 98% of my posts I am a he*l of a lot harsher, and down on cheaters, than most of you

But I am not afraid to call a spade a spade, and I don't go inventing things, I respond to what factual statements have been written

And for anyone to come on here and think that just because a spouse has been cheated on, doesn't give them a free pass for causing the problems in the mge

Again for all of you who yelled at me, why don't YOU GO AND RE-READ what the OP wrote

HE TOOK THE BLAME FOR CAUSING THE PROBLEMS THAT CAUSED HER TO STRAY IN THE 1ST PLACE---and by his own words, He is still acting selfishly

I NEVER condoned what she did, i DO NOT CONDONE CHEATING IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM,---but do NOT any of you try to tell me there are not BETRAYED SPOUSES WHO CAUSE THEIR OWN DOWNFALL---cuz if you do, you are full of sh*t, and you all know it---no matter how noble you try to make yourselves out to be.


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## CantSitStill

sounds like what my counselor would say...siding with the cheater lol..and I am the cheater yet I don't agree..lol go figure
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tokn

This thread has gotten a little hostile...

Chances are good the OP played a part in the marriage going sour. TAM members arguing back and forth whether is he is to blame or not isn't going to help him move forward, and that's what we need to focus helping the OP with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Bucks,

I do hope you post today. You have gotten a lot of good advice. 

No matter what you have done to sour your marriage* you did not force* your wife to confide and be with another man. I would contact the OM and tell him to back off in order to see if you can fix your marriage. I would tell him that you will go to upper management and file a formal complaint. But that is my two cents on that type of situation.

Your wife is now openly lying to you.

I understand you want to better you and work on your marriage.

*It takes two to do this. Your wife has to be willing.*

*It cannot be done with three in the the marriage. Your wife needs to understand this.*

You need to be able to be honest with each other have trust between each other. That has gone out the window.

You both really need to clean up your acts or you are just wasting your time.

I am saying a prayer for your family today and I hope you and your wife start communicating honestly with each other. 

Your lack of empathy for your wife and her running to another man is really not going to help either of you or your children.

You both need to understand that and make a commitment.

*I hope you caught your wife's affair in time and that you both can commit to not making any major decisions for a few months to see if you can get your marriage to a better place.*

HM64


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## tacoma

Bucksinnc said:


> Does she talk to him via her work phone?


That`s why you need the VAR

Edit:

Nevermind.
Must read whole thread before replying


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## TRy

jnj express said:


> Again for all of you who yelled at me, why don't YOU GO AND RE-READ what the OP wrote
> 
> HE TOOK THE BLAME FOR CAUSING THE PROBLEMS THAT CAUSED HER TO STRAY IN THE 1ST PLACE---and by his own words, He is still acting selfishly


 I think you should reread what the OP wrote. What specifically did the OP say that he did wrong? Did he cheat, physically abuse her, verbally abuse her, get drunk all the time, or do any other objectively definable thing wrong? Nope. What he did say that he did wrong was all subjective opinion (“lazy”,” unappreciative”, and “complacent”) pushed on him by his wife, where she set the rules of perfection and acted as judge and jury in reviewing them. Cheaters always do this to justify their cheating, and the one that is cheated on is so desperate to save their marriage that they will accept this false blame and try to do better, even though nothing they do will be viewed by the cheater as good enough.

Everyone in every marriage has their weaknesses. In good marriages the spouse will overlook weaknesses that are not important to them and alert their spouses to the ones that are. The dutiful spouse will then have a chance to focus on fixing the important weaknesses. Cheaters on the other hand will relook at history and point out weaknesses that they had previously never indicated were important to them and make a big deal about these things for the first time. This is what the OP’s cheating wife did. You will notice in the original post that the OP stated “She's not great at speaking up, so I didn't really notice”. Once the cheater relooks at history and alerts the spouse to these issues, nothing the spouse does to address these issues will be viewed by the cheater as good enough because the cheater wants their spouse to be in the wrong in order to justify their cheating.

Do not buy into the cheaters script JNJ. Yes the OP is not perfect, but the cheater knew that about him and married him anyway did she not??


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## OldGirl

Very well said TRy.


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## strikethree

jnj express said:


> HE TOOK THE BLAME FOR CAUSING THE PROBLEMS THAT CAUSED HER TO STRAY IN THE 1ST PLACE---and by his own words, He is still acting selfishly


What planet are you from? 

The first thing that hits a betrayed spouse is bargaining. "What was it that I did wrong that caused them to cheat?" This is exacerbated by blame shifting as the wayward will have no problems drumming up lists and lists of stuff that the betrayed spouse did wrong thereby justifying the affair. See, my cheating isn't bad because my spouse FORCED me to do it by doing/not doing ABCXYZPDQ.

I think it is universal truth that complacency sets into marriage after a number of years and that nobody is perfect. However the lack of perfection is not an excuse to cheat. Period.


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## TDSC60

strikethree said:


> What planet are you from?
> 
> The first thing that hits a betrayed spouse is bargaining. "What was it that I did wrong that caused them to cheat?" This is exacerbated by blame shifting as the wayward will have no problems drumming up lists and lists of stuff that the betrayed spouse did wrong thereby justifying the affair. See, my cheating isn't bad because my spouse FORCED me to do it by doing/not doing ABCXYZPDQ.
> 
> I think it is universal truth that complacency sets into marriage after a number of years and that nobody is perfect. However the lack of perfection is not an excuse to cheat. Period.


:iagree: Kids, house, making money, life in general, causes complacency in marriage. My wife an I have discussed and made every major decision in our life together. However, years ago when my wife announced she was not "happy" and didn't know why, she started to list some of those decisions like I had forced her into them and it was all my fault. So yeah, both partners always have a different view of the past.


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## the guy

especialy when you are getting some strange on the side. Its funny how bad things looked in the past to justify the cheating and it happens on on both side of the fence.

the wayward can always take the high and hard road, but its much eisier to lie and deciet the one that loves loves you..

my $0.02 is OP needs to come back and clarify a few things


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## CantSitStill

Yeah wanna hear from him, give us an update..it's been a while
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

Just because she cheated doesn't whitewash his neglect of her and the marriage. Again, I don't think anyone disagrees with the fact the cheating is on her. But to minimize the effect a constantly neglectful spouse has on a marriage is grossly irresponsible. It's ridiculous. Habitually neglecting your partner over they years is a sure way to lose them. Anyone who disagrees is smoking the good stuff or completely delusional.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mychoice

If I make a decision to leave...those are MY properly used and applied boundaries (i.e.: I can't live under these conditions or circumstances). I make a decision to cheat and I've now violated every possible boundary...yours, his, hers, mine, my sister's, my cousin's, my Mom and Dad's...everybody's!

NO...nobody is "driven" to ANYTHING. Each person makes a choice. And, really, those choices come down to two simple thoughts; 1; do I think and act with integrity congruant to my beliefs, or, 2: do I act in a way that runs counter to every sensibility each and every one of us have.

If I'm neglected...simple...I seek counselling, if it doesn't initiate change, I seek any other method I can find to make a difference. The first is to look at is ME...not others. Most resentments and tenents that others have failed me reside in my unrealistic expectations and, specifically, my own selfishness. The discontent still not solved...divorce.

I don't see cheating as an action that solves anything. It's little more than childish behavior demanding nothing other than selfish soothing. Hardly mature behavior. Regardless, there is always the piper to pay for ALL of our sins. They come back with a fury 5 fold trying to knock some humility into us.

I must be smokin the good stuff I guess.


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## CantSitStill

With me there were alot of things at that time that made me feel at my wits end with hubby..he had changed after I kicked him out..he still has been great since but the problem is ...I went and found my ex about a month before i kicked him out and had been talking with my ex daily. I totally reget this..if I had my brain on right I would have went thru the steps of kicking him out and counseling without getting involved with the Om because..hubby came home went thru counseling and we went thru marriage counseling while i was secretly still talking to the OM..Well hubby changed, did everything right yet I was so distracted by the OM that it obviouly didn't get us anywhere till I finally admitted to it and got kicked out. So yes usually the WS has reasons and is very unhappy but to choose to have an affair is NOT the way to go and it is NOT my husbands fault..It is mine because I avoided confrontation..always avoided it and avoided the issues and would run away from them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

One of the questions the OP should ask his wife is if she wants a divorce. If she answers yes then that's it, game over. But if she doesn't and is willing to do everything, along with him, to get the marriage back on track, then there is hope. In any case, it's better to know what the answer is than remaining in limbo, that way he can plan accordingly.


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## Complexity

Jellybeans said:


> Just because she cheated doesn't whitewash his neglect of her and the marriage. Again, I don't think anyone disagrees with the fact the cheating is on her. But to minimize the effect a constantly neglectful spouse has on a marriage is grossly irresponsible. It's ridiculous. Habitually neglecting your partner over they years is a sure way to lose them. Anyone who disagrees is smoking the good stuff or completely delusional.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agree with this completely. 

I believe in cause and effect. You don't have to condone the effect but you must acknowledge the cause. I've told this to other members here too, jnj has a valid point.


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## CantSitStill

It's true that the BS usually has these bad things they've done yet when I had my affair I forgot that I also had faults..could only see hubby's faults at the time..Now I see many ways where I could have contributed to our marriage and at this point we do not know the whole real story..I'm sure his wife had, or has faults of her own before the affair that she won't address..It's usually how the story goes til they hopefully wake up some day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy

J-
I think that being a crappy H is bad, and being the crappest of them all (the pushing and spanking and emotional neglect) I do wish that my wayward took the higher road and left.

At the end of the day its all about the individual choice to do the right thing and make the changes with in my self....and it will be up to my SO to also make the changes and come along for the ride.

A better ride then what was. A risk that both the wayward and the loyal takes in keeping it going.


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## morituri

Complexity said:


> Agree with this completely.
> 
> I believe in cause and effect. You don't have to condone the effect but you must acknowledge the cause. I've told this to other members here too, jnj has a valid point.


I disagree. There are many betrayed spouses who were far from being neglectful, unloving and yet their spouses chose to cheat on them. For them it was not a case of 'cause and effect' it was 'weak boundaries and opportunity'. And what about the marriages where the neglected spouse never cheats? If your point held any water, then every neglected spouse would be a cheating spouse waiting to happen and yet that is not the case, is it?


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## the guy

:iagree:


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## the guy

Thats what makes this infidelity crap so messed up, its often a by product of an unhealthy marriage, but at the same time time a good marriage can also have a broken spouse that needs the validation...no matter how much they get from there spouse.

It often seems that no matter how good things are, some broken folks are wired in such a way that makes them do bad things b/c thats what they think they diserve. 

Sabatoging ther own blessings, thinking that they don't diserve it.


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## TRy

Jellybeans said:


> Just because she cheated doesn't whitewash his neglect of her and the marriage. Again, I don't think anyone disagrees with the fact the cheating is on her. But to minimize the effect a constantly neglectful spouse has on a marriage is grossly irresponsible. It's ridiculous. Habitually neglecting your partner over they years is a sure way to lose them. Anyone who disagrees is smoking the good stuff or completely delusional.


 What is completely delusional is anyone that instructs a spouse that has been cheated on to work on their marriage based on the truthfulness of the fog induced subjective opinions of a blame shifting, history reinventing, perfection seeking, cheating spouse, that loves someone else and just want you to be wrong.


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## mychoice

Funny, neglect sure gets thrown around a lot. Isn't the interpretation of "neglect" subjective? And in that subjectiveness is it not incumbent upon the one who expects to communicate their expectations?

How often have we seen someone who vehemently complains they haven't received the kind of attention (or whatever) they seek so they justify their cheating choices and behavior? In fact, is that not what's going on here? Not only from the OP's wife, but from some of you cheerleaders as well? Initially the BS is pretty battered and quite ready to accept anything the WS thrusts upon them. Often this is the first time the BS has heard this with such judgmental vindictiveness. I’d guess their often stunned by what they now “are”. As time passes we often re-center and realize…it is NOT me.

Also, it is revealed by research that the condition of the marriage rarely is causal for affairs. That they happen all the time in good marriages as well as bad...is it not?

If so then it is clear that this is an individual malady of the perpetrator...not caused by anything the BS has done. The "illness" is within the wayward and most comment that there is little their BS's could have done to dissuade them from their own destructive paths. They often lament that nothing and/or no one could have derailed them from their path. They were smoldering mentally long before the fire took the entire forest.

I was personally a doting husband. It mattered little. When the thought of fantasy took over there was little left but to watch as my WS burned the relationship down.

Then...oops, I didn't mean to do that. The cases made by many are of the Pavlovian variety. I thought humans were smarter than dogs.


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## morituri

So if we can pounce on a betrayed husband for having been emotionally neglectful in the past to his cheating wife, does that mean we can pounce on a betrayed wife for having been sexually neglectful in the past to her cheating husband?


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## allthegoodnamesaregone

morituri said:


> So if we can pounce on a betrayed husband for having been emotionally neglectful in the past to his cheating wife, does that mean we can pounce on a betrayed wife for having been sexually neglectful in the past to her cheating husband?


Of course not , the man is always in the wrong ;~)
The way I look at it, if someone is that unhappy they should say so long before it gets to that point, but maybe then, they just don't want to, it would remove an excuse to go. After all if a wife went to hubby early on and said "Hub the I'm feeling a bit strange these days, not sure why, can we talk" Most loving hubbies would jump through hoops to listen and help. I know I would have.


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## Bucksinnc

Have been watching the thread develop, but was holding off on adding to the story until I had a little more time/info.

We talked yesterday and a little more today. Had a pretty good time when hanging out with her AND the kids. But any downtime away from the kids, whether or not she was in the same room, was an emotional rollercoaster for me.

She came home from work very angry/frustrated. Frustrated I dragged the kids out of bed at 4am, frustrated I brought our problems to her work, and lastly very frustrated with herself for doing something so stupid. She said all ties with him have been severed.

I told her that right now her words aren't enough. My trust is broken.

Finally I stood up for myself a bit more and told her I felt like everything was being made out to be my fault. And while much of it is, her lack of communication and her at times pretending to be happy certainly didn't help me to improve as a husband over the years. I also said I respected the fact that she needs to be happy with herself before she can be happy with "us" and that I needed the same.

When we were out with the kids today she was looking off and tearing up at one point, I asked her what was wrong and she replied that it was going to be very difficult to have him out of her life, not just because of him, but because it takes several other people out of her life. She worked for quite some time at the other Brueggers and has many friends/acquaintances that she talks to regularly during business hours. She still considers them her "people"/employees, and calls there quite often to talk with them and see how things are going. She's upset she can no longer do that. I took it as a good sign, but I still refuse to put my guard down and just assume that means she's really not talking to him. I won't be that naive again.

She's still telling me that she doubts things will work and that she's not convinced she wants them to work. She's "trying to try". I think this is the thing that is making it hardest on me. It feels at times like anything I do will just be shrugged off because she's telling herself it won't make a difference... never actually letting her guard down long enough to see if it will. This more than anything is why I feel like counseling is needed ASAP. She says she's willing to try it and that feels like the only thing right now that is a positive step in the right direction. If counseling doesn't work I'm not sure there's anything more than can be done right now.

Hell, I don't know anymore. Right now what I really want is my mind to just shut up for awhile so I can relax a bit. Unfortunately I don't seem to be capable of doing that. I feel at times like I'm on the edge of my sanity.


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## keko

If she is saying "trying to try", I would bet she still thinks about the OM. Are you still monitoring her text's, messages, etc.?


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## morituri

If trust, respect, and love are broken, what is there to salvage?


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## mychoice

Complexity said:


> Agree with this completely.
> 
> I believe in cause and effect. You don't have to condone the effect but you must acknowledge the cause. I've told this to other members here too, jnj has a valid point.


CAUSE...no!! Justification...yes!! "EFFECT"...that is nothing more than a selfish immoral decision that was justified (for my benefit by the way). No one "causes" anything unless it's the first car of a pile up. The thing is, not one of the rear vehicles allowed proper spacing in the first place. Believe me, you will receive and at-fault surcharge on your insurance rates if you ever pile into someone from behind, regardless of what "they" did. All will cry of their plight. Hmm, sound similar?

The point is that it does not matter what another has done. What matters is "the story I told myself about it"...THAT is what matters. Resentments are RARELY dealt with, because, if they were, they would not be resentments. They'd have been resolved! So, this discussion and comments like "I've been after him/her for years"...well, it just doesn't cut the acid test.

This has turned into a discussion of personal responsibility and it really is shocking how so many have a finger pointed. How many have little idea of what personal responsibility means. It surely does not mean getting "even" (YOU did this SO I'm doing THAT) or taking one's frustrations out on another. It surely does not mean blaming someone else, who never was involved, for my actions while I was checked out of the relationship (you just didn't know!). It surely doesn't mean doing the same awful thing over and over posing the question; "why did I do that...why do I keep doing that". That is simply sick.

Gees, this is a one person show and that one person is trying to get everyone else involved, after the fact, so he/she NEVER has to seriously look in the mirror. Sadly, that includes some of the posters in this thread. No wonder so many BS's find true remorse an elusive and, often phony, commodity. Reasons, causes, situations and justifications all abound. There are NONE! When you FINALLY own it...your BS can be set free. Until you do...well, it will forever be a fear based relationship. Like it, or not, that is considered abuse.


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## lordmayhem

WTF is this "trying to try" crap? That's unacceptable. Sound like she's on the fence still and cake eating. I bet she's taken it underground.


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## jnj express

I blasted you---now its time to blast her

She is still being SELFISH---if she wanted this mge., really wanted it---she would not think one IOTA about losing friendships, with people she works with

Not one of those people she works with, will ever be there for her, when she is in her golden years, not one of them will be there for her, in a family emergency, not one of them is gonna help her thru a financial dilemma------she needs to get over herself, and especially her misplaced fondness, for a man who knew she was a married woman with a family, but yet he still courted her----

It is very hard to just drop a lover cold turkey---right or wrong---he is akin to a narcotic, and he will stick around in her mind---but if she truly wants this mge., and to save her family----all these friends, and especially her lover, MUST be put out of her thoughts-------that is part of the heavy lifting she MUST do to earn her way back into the family

MC, IC, are both good, and probably needed, but she has gotta get her mind set, on what she knows is right if there is to be a R., and she needs to start working on it NOW, there is no trying to try---there is either doing, on her part, or there is adios, on your part.


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## Will_Kane

_I told her if she really was willing to give me one last chance that she could NOT be talking to this guy, because she was giving him her emotions and that's not giving me a fair shot. *She agreed, said she would absolutely cut him off, and she truly wanted things to work.*

She came home from work very angry/frustrated. Frustrated I dragged the kids out of bed at 4am, frustrated I brought our problems to her work, and lastly very frustrated with herself for doing something so stupid. *She said all ties with him have been severed.*_

You are on the right path, but at this point, can you believe anything she says? Sounds like the same old song and dance. Assume all her words are lies. Believe only her actions.

When you saw her tearing up, did you think it was because she was thinking about her lies and betrayal, how much she hurt you, how disappointed she was in herself for lying to you, betraying you, and risking her family and her marriage?

Was it tough to hear that instead her tears were over the the thought of giving up the other man and his friends?

What a nice life she could have with the other man and his friends, hanging out and having fun with no responsibilities.

"No contact" is not going to come easy. Start preparing yourself for what action you plan to take when you find out she has broken "no contact."

In the meantime, stay focused on your conditions for the marriage. As long as she maintains no contact, give her the love and attention she needs, don't give her any excuses by backsliding on the changes you need to make.


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## strikethree

OP, if you want this marriage you need to drop the hammer on her right now and hard.

She doesn't get to decide "maybe" because right now you're not really sure you want her back. She needs to convince you that she's worth taking back. If she can't get all-in the marriage, then tell her to get all out. She can pack her gear and move in with the OM and divorce papers will follow shortly.

Do not give her any wiggle room. She will exploit it.

Personally, I think you'd be better off without her. And even if you want to keep her you should think and act like that.

Good luck.


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## snap

From her reluctant attitude, she feels no remorse and really is not into R. I'd bet she's still in contact with the OM.


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## Bucksinnc

Yes, I am still monitoring her texts/calls/etc.

I've taken it a step further, but won't say how, just in case I'm being monitored as well.

That said, I hate that this is what my relationship has turned into right now. This is no way to live and it's putting me at my wit's end. I'm counting down the days until we can go to MC. I know it may not work, she may never fully commit to giving it a try, but I feel like I'm out of options.


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## snap

MC is no magic potion. If she's still in affair don't hold your breath, it will be a waste of money.

As a betrayed spouse, don't count on any outside help that will resolve the situation for you. It's all in your hands.


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## Bucksinnc

snap said:


> MC is no magic potion. If she's still in affair don't hold your breath, it will be a waste of money.
> 
> As a betrayed spouse, don't count on any outside help that will resolve the situation for you. It's all in your hands.


I guess at this point, unless I find out for certain she's still doing it, I'm going to go ahead with MC. If I find out otherwise then I certainly won't be wasting my money.


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## Jellybeans

mychoice said:


> I make a decision to cheat and I've now violated every possible boundary...yours, his, hers, mine, my sister's, my cousin's, my Mom and Dad's...everybody's


Just as if you make a decision to habitually neglect your spouse, that is a violation of the marriage vows. 



mychoice said:


> If I'm neglected...simple...I seek counselling, if it doesn't initiate change, I seek any other method I can find to make a difference. The first is to look at is ME...not others. Most resentments and tenents that others have failed me reside in my unrealistic expectations and, specifically, my own selfishness. The discontent still not solved...divorce..!.


So the person being neglected should get into counselling cause something is clearly wrong with them that they are being neglected right? Say what? Ok that makes a lot of sense. Individual counselling is great to look inwards, to acknowlege your issues. Counselling to figure out why someone is mistreating you--doesn't make sense. You aren't the one neglecting your spouse. Why would you need to get counselling for their neglect? 



mychoice said:


> I don't see cheating as an action that solves anything. It's little more than childish behavior demanding nothing other than selfish soothing. Hardly mature behavior. Regardless, there is always the piper to pay for ALL of our sins. They come back with a fury 5 fold trying to knock some humility into us.
> I must be smokin the good stuff I guess.


Yeah. You must be. Because nobody is saying "cheating is an action that solves things." Not one person on here has said that cheating solves marital issues--that it's an ok thing to do to your spouse.

Neither is neglecting your spouse. It's hardy the mature or healthy or productive thing to do. 

The thing here is that a lot of people don't like to acknowledge that the person who was admittedly habitually neglectful (his own words), unappreciative and the lot has played a part in the marriage breaking down. To pretend as if that isn't the case, or that neglecting your spouse gets a pass cause someone cheateed is silly. In this case, to pretend as if the things that happened before she cheated do not matter at all is not ok nor does it make it better. It does not excuse his behavior prior to her cheating.



TRy said:


> What is completely delusional is anyone that instructs a spouse that has been cheated on to work on their marriage based on the truthfulness of the fog induced subjective opinions of a blame shifting, history reinventing, perfection seeking, cheating spouse, that loves someone else and just want you to be wrong.


It's not "history reinventing" if he, himself, admits that he was, in fact, neglectful of her. 

There are two issues here: his neglect and her cheating. Two very different issues--both of which are wrong.

As it stands, they have no marriage to work on as long as a third party is involved. And not much of a marriage if he's neglecting her too. That's not rocket science. 



mychoice said:


> *Funny, neglect sure gets thrown around a lot*. * Isn't the interpretation of "neglect" subjective?* And in that subjectiveness is it not incumbent upon the one who expects to communicate their expectations?
> 
> How often have we seen someone who vehemently complains they haven't received the kind of attention (or whatever) they seek so they justify their cheating choices and behavior? In fact, is that not what's going on here? Not only from the OP's wife, but from some of *you cheerleaders *as well? Initially the BS is pretty battered and quite ready to accept anything the WS thrusts upon them. Often this is the first time the BS has heard this with such judgmental vindictiveness. I’d guess their often stunned by what they now “are”. As time passes we often re-center and realize…it is NOT me. .


"Neglect" isn't "Subjective" as you say when the person doing the neglecting over the course of many years *openly acknowledges * what they have done. To pretend as if this isn't harmful to a marriage or is an ok thing to do to your spouse is again.... grossly irresponsible. 

As far as "cheerleaders" go--lol, it seems again, in your post, you're pretending the "neglect" is something SHE made up -- when HE is the one who admits doing it! 

Neglect isn't some "made up thing" when the spouse who has done it outright admits it. 



mychoice said:


> I was personally a doting husband. It mattered little. When the thought of fantasy took over there was little left but to watch as my WS burned the relationship down.


That sucks for you. But what about the marriages where people constantly tell their spouses that there is a problem they'd like to have addressed? Where the spouse IS actually neglecting and not "doting?" What happens when the spouse does not acknowledge nor cares or commits to working on the marriage with them? Should the neglected spouse just tolerate a marriage like that til they die? And I'm not talking about cheating. I am talking about what happens in a relationship where one spouse tells their partner they need to work on something together because there are major problems and the other spouse does not give a hoot? 



allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> The way I look at it, if someone is that unhappy they should say so long before it gets to that point, but maybe then, they just don't want to, it would remove an excuse to go. After all if a wife went to hubby early on and said "Hub the I'm feeling a bit strange these days, not sure why, can we talk" Most loving hubbies would jump through hoops to listen and help. I know I would have.


But what if they do? In my case, I was that wife. My H refused marriage counselling, refused to talk about things, refused to communicate, refused work on things. He said "This is how it is. Your opinion doesn't matter to me." 

What then? Should someone just stay? Does that make that behavior ok? 

This thread has gotten quite derailed.

Bucks--I'll tell you this: work on YOUR issues. Acknowledge them. Tell her you want to go to marriage counselling and commit to restoring your marriage--but ONLY if she is completely done with OM. 

Your actions are going to have to show her you means business because in the past, your words (and actions too) haven't held any weight--that's why you admitted to 'working on things' for a little bit and then going back to how it was. 

Either your wife is all in or she's out. Tell her you want to work on your marriage, but you won't stand for an open marriage.

Again, the hardest part for you both is going to be whether you can trust eachother--her for the fact she doesn't know she can trust you with her feelings/emotional safety/being there for her--you for her affair. 

It takes two. One person cannot do it alone.


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## mychoice

Buck,

MC is really the only action you can take that is relationship supportive. Aside from that you can do nothing about her. That she could pine right in front of you offends my sensibilities. That she is willing to openly do this speaks volumes of where she's at.

I'm sorry Buck but I don't believe for a minute she's ended her relationship with her lover. She's been able to get by with conducting her affair right in your full view. She already knows your tolerance is WAY beyond reasonable and will likely take complete advantage of it.

As others have suggested, the surefire way to end her affair is to draw a definitive line right now. What is a definitive line? "It's time you move out honey. I'll not sit idle and watch you destroy everything we've built in this life together. Furthermore, I'll not accept one more deprecating incident. You're already far beyond the point of acceptance. You would do well to start proving yourself and that began the day I found out."

Right now she has done nothing to prove she is even remotely worthy of your acceptance let alone forgiveness. Should your relationship survive you have a lifetime of looking over your shoulder to contend with. You better start thinking about you in this process.

As for NC...how is that even possible? She still has her job correct? "An idea not married to action is a fantacy". What ACTION has she taken? Right, nothing more than words. I've watched so many like this over the years and, with few exceptions, they all go one way...now, they take it underground. You'll have a false peace for awhile until their audacity gets the better of them and it becomes obvious once again. Then what will you do?

As for MC, as long as she is mentally connected with her paramour NOTHING will come from it except more Buck bashing. She'll do little but assert her reasons why her behavior is acceptable.

At some point you'll be forced into action. Until then it will only be more pain piled on top of more insults, degradation, minimizing and a myriad of other stalling tactics. See, all she wants now is your sorry ass waiting until she's done having her "fling". Ugly but that is how they think and operate.

Finally, you'll truly give up and start to disconnect and protect yourself. You'll stop trying to control the outcome and realize only she has that power. Only then will she start to re-join reality. I don't know what you do for a living but I can assure you managers at Brueggers don't make enough to provide much for a family. She'll start to come back to earth with the stark reality of who this piece of work really is. Only then will reason begin to prevail and centered thinking start to appear.

The process for the BS in the throws of their WS's affair are ugly, agonizingly slow and very painful for those experienced to watch. You spend most of your time destroying you...not the affair.

You want this to be over? Bring home divorce papers. Tell her she's got one week to move out (YES...she moves out AND pays for it with her Brueggers paycheck). Tell her you're done being a doormat. My lord, grow some balls! (I wish I had and I know scores of BS's that feel the same). THEN, and only then, will the fog just start to crack and she may wake from her deep slumber. Don't cater to her "I don't think this is going to work" assertions. Its purpose is to keep you hooked while she conducts her cake eating. If you handle it like this, years down the road, you'll be able to look back and at least know you handled the situation with boundaries, dignity and self respect.

Will it work? Well, if it doesn't nothing else would have either...and you'll know now what you're really up against. You want to be done with it...take a stand.

Best of luck Buck


----------



## keko

mychoice said:


> You want this to be over? Bring home divorce papers. Tell her she's got one week to move out (YES...she moves out AND pays for it with her Brueggers paycheck). Tell her you're done being a doormat. My lord, grow some balls! (I wish I had and I know scores of BS's that feel the same). THEN, and only then, will the fog just start to crack and she may wake from her deep slumber. Don't cater to her "I don't think this is going to work" assertions. Its purpose is to keep you hooked while she conducts her cake eating. If you handle it like this, years down the road, you'll be able to look back and at least know you handled the situation with boundaries, dignity and self respect.


This.


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## mychoice

Jellybeans...it would do no good to address you. You are firmly in the camp of "cheating is an acceptable way of dealing with MY discourse". It's not and it never will be acceptable for anyone or any relationship. You also prove my point about remorse. I don't see a shred of it.

As for neglect...it IS subjective. "He didn't ask me about my work today" - is that neglect? "I'm upset and he doesn't even see it" - is that neglect? "I'm OBVIOUSLY infatuated with this guy at work and he doesn't even care" - is that neglect? "He doesn't make the effort to take out the garbage...he surely could care less about me" - is that neglect?

I could write a hundred more. YES, it is subjective and ALL of those kinds of self talk are the destructive underpinning of "affair making". They are - "the story I made up about that was...". Boiled down to their very base are TOTALLY about me and have nothing to do with you! Every single bit of your writing is selfish and self centered. It's not about finding ways to impove the relationship...it's about finding blame. What happens after that? Well, whatever happens...it's just a natural outcome...right?

What I'm espousing is the very basis of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT). Anyone whose done even the least bit of work towards self improvement is well aware of these principles. What I'm suggesting is COMMON human behavioral maladies.


----------



## Jellybeans

Maybe she's having an exit affair.


----------



## chaos

Jellybeans said:


> I am talking about what happens in a relationship where one spouse tells their partner they need to work on something together because there are major problems and the other spouse does not give a hoot?
> 
> But what if they do? In my case, I was that wife. My H refused marriage counseling, refused to talk about things, refused to communicate, refused work on things. He said "This is how it is. Your opinion doesn't matter to me."
> 
> What then? Should someone just stay? Does that make that behavior ok?.


I agree with you but you didn't follow your own advice and instead chose to stay married in quiet desperation until the opportunity presented itself and you had an affair.

Though there was no affair in my marriage - that I am aware of -I nevertheless chose to end it because my wife no longer wanted to have sex with me (sexual neglect) despite all my best efforts to meet her needs. If I had made the same choice of staying married - like you did - I would have probably had an affair as well.

A spouse who chooses to remain married to a neglectful spouse, and later on has an affair, has nobody to blame for the fall out but him/herself.


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## Jellybeans

mychoice said:


> Jellybeans...it would do no good to address you.


And yet, you are addressing me. 



mychoice said:


> You are firmly in the camp of "cheating is an acceptable way of dealing with MY discourse". It's not and it never will be acceptable for anyone or any relationship. You also prove my point about remorse. I don't see a shred of it..


WHERE in my post does it say "cheatintg is an acceptable way of dealing with MY discourse?" If you don't agree with my posts, that's fine but do not put word in my mouth. Nowhere in any of my posts did I say cheating was acceptable. If you can find that post and highlight it for me, that'd be great.

And don't talk to me about remorse. 



mychoice said:


> As for neglect...it IS subjective. "He didn't ask me about my work today" - is that neglect? "I'm upset and he doesn't even see it" - is that neglect? "I'm OBVIOUSLY infatuated with this guy at work and he doesn't even care" - is that neglect? "He doesn't make the effort to take out the garbage...he surely could care less about me" - is that neglect?.


No, neglect is not subjective--and especially not when the OP outright admits to being neglectful. Perhaps you missed his posts. Or only selected what you wanted to read from them. As for asking about work and being upset--nowhere in his posts does he give those examples--those are your words/your interpretation. 

Neglect is a real thing. If you don't acknowledge it's a real thing, then that's on you. 

To pretend as if neglect isn't a real thing then... well, you are blind. 



mychoice said:


> Every single bit of your writing is selfish and self centered.


I'm sorry you feel that way. It's funny because your posts are all one-sided and refuse to acknowledge how neglect is a very real thing. 

If you don't like want have to say, stop reading my posts.


----------



## Jellybeans

chaos said:


> I agree with you but you didn't follow your own advice and instead chose to stay married in quiet desperation until the opportunity presented itself and you had an affair.


Nope. I left. And my husband had cheated. We divorced.

Does that make cheating ok? No. Does that make neglect ok? No.


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## mychoice

Jellybeans...you're right my perspective IS all one-sided. There is NEVER an excuse to betray your spouse...NEVER!

By the way...I was the neglected party in our relationship. I know what the feelings are. The question is really; how much does my own thinking play into that? It is not only substantial, it is all that matters. Every relationship will be "one-sided" given this kind of thinking. At some point you'll look back and say; "funny, there is only one constant in all of this...ME".

As for remorse...if you're still with your H I'd be shocked if he wasn't living every moment worrying when the shoe will drop next. He's figuratively cowering in the corner waiting to be shocked again. He's constantly worrying about meeting your insatiable needs. This is NOT an equal relationship.

More likely is that you are no longer with him. I'm guessing you walked away all the while as your finger was firmly planted in his direction. One of many I'd guess. If Buck's wife feels this same kind of entitlement, at her core, I would endeavor to know this as soon as possible. Only then will he leave her behind and look for a real "life partner".


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## allthegoodnamesaregone

Jellybeans said:


> Maybe she's having an exit affair.


Well that's pretty much the script, dump enough crap on a BS spouse looking answers and they'll take take ownership of the blame away from you.
We do it because we need some kind of rational closure, which is not going to be forthcoming from someone in the middle of an affair.

We've all done it, I spent months ripping myself apart trying to find just what I had done that was bad enough to "Force" my wife to cheat and lie to me, her own parents and children. And the answer was Nothing. 

I can see when there is genuine mental/physical abuse, addictions, infidelity etc. where one should consider their options about divorce, but these nebulous claims of 'not having their needs met' posts are pure bull. It pretty much boils down to MLC, latent mental issues or both.

I just can't wrap my head around the idea that someone a person who has shared 10-30 years with you cannot bring themselves to talk about important issues, but can go tell their most intimate family details to and screw a perfect stranger.


----------



## chaos

Jellybeans said:


> Nope. I left. And my husband had cheated. We divorced.


Not according to some of your past posts. He pushed for the divorce, you wanted to reconcile with him - even AFTER both of your affairs became known to one another.


----------



## Jellybeans

mychoice said:


> There is NEVER an excuse to betray your spouse...NEVER!"


I agree. Thre is no excuse for cheating. There is also no excuse for habitually neglecting your spouse. 



mychoice said:


> As for remorse...if you're still with your H I'd be shocked if he wasn't living every moment worrying when the shoe will drop next. He's figuratively cowering in the corner waiting to be shocked again. He's constantly worrying about meeting your insatiable needs. This is NOT an equal relationship.
> 
> More likely is that you are no longer with him. I'm guessing you walked away all the while as your finger was firmly planted in his direction. One of many I'd guess. If Buck's wife feels this same kind of entitlement, at her core, I would endeavor to know this as soon as possible. Only then will he leave her behind and look for a real "life partner".


You don't know anything about me so stop with the trying to narrate life stories.


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## mychoice

Chaos...intersting...I didn't even look. Thank you for the enlightenment.


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## TRy

Jellybeans said:


> It's not "history reinventing" if he, himself, admits that he was, in fact, neglectful of her.


In admitting fault in the OP's first post to this thread the OP stated that "She's not great at speaking up, so I didn't really notice". In other words, he did not know that these things were significant until she told him much later after the fact. This is a good indication of history reinventing by a cheater. The history being reinvented is her saying that these imperfections were major and important to her in the past, when in fact they were not. The fact that the cheated on spouse will typically accept blame and try to do better, only proves that they are a caring spouse.


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## mychoice

Jellybeans, it's not narration, its experience. I've been part of boards similar to this for 10 years. I've watched it. It is so incredibly easy now to glean the seriously remorseful WS from the pretender now. You can usually tell in the first line of their posts.

The truly remorseful WS ALWAYS takes a repentent position. In fact it is usually quite easy to see which relationships will survive based upon the WS's behavior immediately following D-day. Believe me, Buck's wife is NOT following the usual successful path. Her contrition is the ONLY way their relationship has a chance. 

The key? Simple...humility. Once a WS gets down to their "right size" good things can happen. Until then it is never anything other than destructive.


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## Jellybeans

Oh and Bucks, sorry for hi-jacking your thread.


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## chaos

Don't get me wrong Jellybeans, I agree with you that a marriage takes two people to work. I believe that the difference between your situation and mine is one of timing and opportunity - I got lucky.


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## morituri

If your wife doesn't show any remorse for her betrayal then I'm afraid that you are simply trying to keep a dying marriage on life support. Divorce sucks but being in a dying marriage sucks even more.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone

TRy said:


> In admitting fault in the OP's first post to this thread the OP stated that "She's not great at speaking up, so I didn't really notice". In other words, he did not know that he was doing these things until she told him much later after the fact. This is a good indication of history reinventing by a cheater. The fact that he accepted blame and wanted to work on doing better, is a typical response by every good spouse that is being cheated on because they trust their spouse and cannot believe that their spouse would be manipulating them in this way.



It appears as a recurring theme in these situations, a cheating spouse claiming long suffering issues of some some kind of neglect, and the BS has had no real idea this was the case. 

To the BS this seems probable because like in many marriages most of us are so busy going about raising kids, working and dealing with the regular daily crap we have to to survive we think,
" I should have given her more attention I've been so busy I didn't notice". 

The truth is in many cases very few of the BS's needs were being met either, and they've put everything else first. They always felt that this was just a stage in marriage you go through, you divide duties kids/work/ family/ mortgage etc..to get things done and connect when you can. 

The idea of the woman you'd take a bullet for was in enough pain to leave your marriage, and even worse could not bring herself to tell you how bad she was feeling cuts like a knife. Some Bs's , like myself are willing through this love to take the blame, how ever ridiculous some of the claims the WS makes are in retrospect. 

On the life 2 forum there are over 16,000 posts that mirror this same script used by exW's. In many cases the kids were left along with the husband. Even after custody arrangements were set up, they spend the majority of the time with the father. I think that pretty much sums it up when dad is left with the kids....


----------



## allthegoodnamesaregone

morituri said:


> One wonders how the cheating spouse is going to meet those 'needs' that got neglected by the betrayed spouse when the marriage and the affair both end.


Makes you wonder, but I think it's all about "Now". Many that seem to go through this I feel are going through a mid life issue, wherever they are currently in life , they are not happy and the "grass must be greener" elsewhere. Time is of the essence to them, they have to run and grab it now, they want to feel alive again.

I can understand it, but like you I wonder if they think at all of anything beyond the now? I know now in my case my W never like our house very much, or our modest lifestyle. The house was small and not as nice as some of our friends, but the mortgage was paid off the mortgage five months before she left. 

The guy she left me and the kids for makes way more money than me, has a big house and likes to party, but has a mortgage and is always complaining about money from what I hear. The funny thing is she only sees him on weekends because he lives over 100 miles away, and she now lives in a tiny one bedroom apartment which she pays more for than our old mortgage.

If and when this all does come crashing down for her, none of the needs she had I could not meet (financial/lifestyle) will be met, nor the 80% I could meet will be there, but I'm sure some other rationalization will appear.


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## CantSitStill

Just stopping in to watch this debate...carry on
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Complexity

mychoice said:


> CAUSE...no!! Justification...yes!! "EFFECT"...that is nothing more than a selfish immoral decision that was justified (for my benefit by the way). No one "causes" anything unless it's the first car of a pile up. The thing is, not one of the rear vehicles allowed proper spacing in the first place. Believe me, you will receive and at-fault surcharge on your insurance rates if you ever pile into someone from behind, regardless of what "they" did. All will cry of their plight. Hmm, sound similar?
> 
> The point is that it does not matter what another has done. What matters is "the story I told myself about it"...THAT is what matters. Resentments are RARELY dealt with, because, if they were, they would not be resentments. They'd have been resolved! So, this discussion and comments like "I've been after him/her for years"...well, it just doesn't cut the acid test.
> 
> This has turned into a discussion of personal responsibility and it really is shocking how so many have a finger pointed. How many have little idea of what personal responsibility means. It surely does not mean getting "even" (YOU did this SO I'm doing THAT) or taking one's frustrations out on another. It surely does not mean blaming someone else, who never was involved, for my actions while I was checked out of the relationship (you just didn't know!). It surely doesn't mean doing the same awful thing over and over posing the question; "why did I do that...why do I keep doing that". That is simply sick.
> 
> Gees, this is a one person show and that one person is trying to get everyone else involved, after the fact, so he/she NEVER has to seriously look in the mirror. Sadly, that includes some of the posters in this thread. No wonder so many BS's find true remorse an elusive and, often phony, commodity. Reasons, causes, situations and justifications all abound. There are NONE! When you FINALLY own it...your BS can be set free. Until you do...well, it will forever be a fear based relationship. Like it, or not, that is considered abuse.


I really couldn't follow what you've written here. I don't understand where talk of pile ups and surcharges came from.... Anyway to reply to one thing you've written;



> The point is that it does not matter what another has done.


Erm I'm sorry, but it does. Not only is this logically ridiculous but it's very worrying that you'd actually believe this. I have no sympathy for abusive spouses that have been cheated on nor for those that *purposely* neglect their partners despite being repeatedly alerted to the fact. Yes to be cheated on is reprehensible and they should've taken the higher road to get a divorce but I will not go out of my way to condemn the cheater in these circumstances.


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## strikethree

OP, no marriage counseling is not on the table.

She needs to EARN that spot at the table. And so far she hasn't.

The only thing she's earning right now is a boot out the door and divorce papers.

I know this experience sucks. I'm a BS myself and I basically vanished when she thought I was out of state. 

What do I regret most about my experience? Showing weakness. I shouldn't have answered that phone call. I shouldn't have offered marriage counseling when she didn't do anything to deserve it. Because she basically just used it as an opportunity to rail against me and then evade any responsibility.

I wished when I moved out I immediately served her papers. It's that middle gap where she wasn't serious about working it out but thought she could string me along in case OM didn't work out or whatever that I'm most ashamed of.

In most cases like this, I think serving papers ASAP is usually the best move. It's a wakeup call that may bring the WS back to the marriage, and if not it's inevitable anyway.

Drop the hammer.


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## strikethree

On the topic of neglect vs cheating. 

I view cheating as the ultimate form of neglect, but it's worse than that. It's not just "oh, I should have been paying more attention to you but I got busy with work or kids or whatever." It's a deliberate choice to betray the person you promised to be faithful to. It's a deliberate choice to expose them to potential life long and life threatening sexually transmitted diseases. It's an abandonment of the future they thought they had with you and whatever children you have. It is not the same as neglect at all.

I'll put it in SAT format: 

NEGLECT :: CHEATING 
is as
WAR :: NUCLEAR WAR

The proper response to neglect is marriage counseling.
The proper response to cheating is divorce.


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## mychoice

Complexity said:


> Erm I'm sorry, but it does. Not only is this logically ridiculous but it's very worrying that you'd actually believe this. I have no sympathy for abusive spouses that have been cheated on nor for those that *purposely* neglect their partners despite being repeatedly alerted to the fact. Yes to be cheated on is reprehensible and they should've taken the higher road to get a divorce but I will not go out of my way to condemn the cheater in these circumstances.


Oh, but I do indeed believe it. We ALL have options. 1; stay...2; leave. Purposely? If it's on purpose what is one doing in the relationship? This is not a child stuck because she's 5 years old and has no other means. This is an adult. I cannot imagine even one tiny spoiled person willing to be with someone for the sole purpose of hurting them. So, I'm sorry Complexity...I cannot follow your logic (if there is any).

In fact, I believe that EVERY relationship starts on great footing. There is attraction. Behaviors comply with the other's hopes. All things are geared toward satifying another in order to consumate the term "relationship". In other words, I give in order to receive. So, the question is...where does the turn come?

Prior posters here have made excellent comments on how life happens. That's life! It takes effort to stay connected. But, how does a relationship become "neglectful"? What are the definitions?

I submit it's usually because the evolution of a relationship no longer focuses SOLELY on the "other" (as it shouldn't). There is life that happens. I've never seen a couple get married and retire to a cave where they'll see no other humans except each other (sorry). That means that if "we" are to grow beyond the self serving "feed me" relationship other things become center stage. Maybe it's early careers, children, housing...whatever. Those choices are probably almost always agreed upon.

The problem comes when one of the couple says (in their mind); "wait a minute...I don't like this arrangement. Life is now about responsibility and duty and has little to do with...fun! It's not fair, I married you to sooth MY ego, insecurities and meet MY "needs". (Sucking my thumb)...you mean it's no longer just about me?". The spoiled brat refuses to grow up and the silent WAR is on. The thing is...only one person knows they're at war.

You have far to go to convince me that any one person sets out to intentionally neglect another. No, this one is totally an internal discussion between me and me and if I don't involve my partner in my fears...no doubt I am primed, and prepared, to justify whatever choices and behaviors I choose to exhibit.

Again, we're back to personal responsibility, or better wording, what part of ME am I responsible for?

The difference between you and I is that I'm saying I am always, always, 100% responsible for me and my choices. You're saying...well...that depends. No it doesn't.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone

mychoice said:


> Oh, but I do indeed believe it. We ALL have options. 1; stay...2; leave. Purposely? If it's on purpose what is one doing in the relationship? This is not a child stuck because she's 5 years old and has no other means. This is an adult. I cannot imagine even one tiny spoiled person willing to be with someone for the sole purpose of hurting them. So, I'm sorry Complexity...I cannot follow your logic (if there is any).
> 
> In fact, I believe that EVERY relationship starts on great footing. There is attraction. Behaviors comply with the other's hopes. All things are geared toward satifying another in order to consumate the term "relationship". In other words, I give in order to receive. So, the question is...where does the turn come?
> 
> Prior posters here have made excellent comments on how life happens. That's life! It takes effort to stay connected. But, how does a relationship become "neglectful"? What are the definitions?
> 
> I submit it's usually because the evolution of a relationship no longer focuses SOLELY on the "other" (as it shouldn't). There is life that happens. I've never seen a couple get married and retire to a cave where they'll see no other humans except each other (sorry). That means that if "we" are to grow beyond the self serving "feed me" relationship other things become center stage. Maybe it's early careers, children, housing...whatever. Those choices are probably almost always agreed upon.
> 
> The problem comes when one of the couple says (in their mind); "wait a minute...I don't like this arrangement. Life is now about responsibility and duty and has little to do with...fun! It's not fair, I married you to sooth MY ego, insecurities and meet MY "needs". (Sucking my thumb)...you mean it's no longer just about me?". The spoiled brat refuses to grow up and the silent WAR is on. The thing is...only one person knows they're at war.
> 
> You have far to go to convince me that any one person sets out to intentionally neglect another. No, this one is totally an internal discussion between me and me and if I don't involve my partner in my fears...no doubt I am primed, and prepared, to justify whatever choices and behaviors I choose to exhibit.
> 
> Again, we're back to personal responsibility, or better wording, what part of ME am I responsible for?
> 
> The difference between you and I is that I'm saying I am always, always, 100% responsible for me and my choices. You're saying...well...that depends. No it doesn't.


You nailed this, I'm going to copy your post and tap it to the fridge door... ;~)


----------



## CantSitStill

As I said earlier..his wife has no business being with him or even being home unless she is in love with him...otherwise it will never work, how could it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TDSC60

Seems a few folks got sidetracked.

Bucks - she is not prepared to attempt to save your marriage and is not ready for MC. Her getting mad at you when you caught her visiting the OM and lying to you shows her true nature. "Trying to try" WTH does that mean?

Plus her starting to cry when she thinks about not contacting the OM again shows she is heavily involved with him and he (not you or your children) occupy her mind.

Divorce papers may be the only way to shock her back to reality or that may be exactly what she wants.


----------



## TDSC60

Almost forgot - if the OM is married - have you told his wife yet?

I would tell her that you have discovered that he and your wife are in an EA (provide copies of email and text messages if you can) and tell her that your marriage could end in divorce because of it.


----------



## TRy

Complexity said:


> I have no sympathy for abusive spouses that have been cheated on nor for those that *purposely* neglect their partners despite being repeatedly alerted to the fact. Yes to be cheated on is reprehensible and they should've taken the higher road to get a divorce but I will not go out of my way to condemn the cheater in these circumstances.


 The problem with your position on this is that determining "neglect" is not objective but subjective, with a cheater being motivated (to blame shift) to cut their spouse very little slack in determining this definition. If the standard is near perfection, there is not a single spouse that would pass such a test during the entire course of a marriage. Children and work make it easy for every couples to fall into this from time to time. Being the one that is most willing to accept responsibility for their part in fixing the relationship does not make them the bad partner that can be cheated on.


----------



## Bucksinnc

Somehow I keep forgetting to mention it despite many people bringing it up... he's single.

Many of you may be right, MC might not be the answer. Here's the thing... I feel like it's the last option. If she's not receptive to it, not truly willing to be done with the OM, then I will stop fighting. I am already trying (between the flood of emotions) to better myself, if things don't work out then I'll shift more focus onto ME and see where life takes me (and us) from there.

Between advice here and things I've been reading around the web, I feel FAR more prepared for the worst than I would have been if it happened a week or so ago. Naturally, it's still going to be one hell of a struggle, but I have much more strength and faith in myself to make it through. My kids deserve the best and they need a father who is strong and will be there for them no matter what. Me moping around and feeling bad for myself won't get that done. 

I've found out over the last week I have more people that care about me and my well being than I ever could have imagined. That alone helps me know that everything will work out in the end.


----------



## TDSC60

Bucksinnc said:


> Somehow I keep forgetting to mention it despite many people bringing it up... he's single.
> 
> Many of you may be right, MC might not be the answer. Here's the thing... I feel like it's the last option. If she's not receptive to it, not truly willing to be done with the OM, then I will stop fighting. I am already trying (between the flood of emotions) to better myself, if things don't work out then I'll shift more focus onto ME and see where life takes me (and us) from there.
> 
> Between advice here and things I've been reading around the web, I feel FAR more prepared for the worst than I would have been if it happened a week or so ago. Naturally, it's still going to be one hell of a struggle, but I have much more strength and faith in myself to make it through. My kids deserve the best and they need a father who is strong and will be there for them no matter what. Me moping around and feeling bad for myself won't get that done.
> 
> I've found out over the last week I have more people that care about me and my well being than I ever could have imagined. That alone helps me know that everything will work out in the end.


:smthumbup: :smthumbup: :smthumbup: :smthumbup:

:yay:

Good place to be at the moment.

Edit: Is there a "Ducks-in-a-Row" emoticon here? If not there should be.


----------



## Complexity

TRy said:


> The problem with your position on this is that determining "neglect" is not objective but subjective, with a cheater being motivated (to blame shift) to cut their spouse very little slack in determining this definition. If the standard is near perfection, there is not a single spouse that would pass such a test during the entire course of a marriage. Children and work make it easy for every couples to fall into this from time to time. Being the one that is most willing to accept responsibility for their part in fixing the relationship does not make them the bad partner that can be cheated on.


No, neglect can be determined both objectively and subjectively. I intentionally put the qualifier "purposely" to stress what I mean exactly. Work and child commitments are necessities, with the prior, it's debatable. 

If one prioritizes their work commitments _purposely_ to an extent that their partner becomes secondary in their lives, and despite repeated warnings of the pain it causes them they continue as normal, well again, the spouse must take some blame. However do not confuse this with those who have no other option than to take inconvenient work hours. The cheater in these circumstances takes full blame for their actions. 

The problem with a lot of people on TAM is that they have a tunnel vision with all cheaters. A lot of people like to superimpose their own experiences with cheaters and apply a blanket definition of their character. To be fair with you, I'm guilty of this too. Cheaters are not allowed to have genuine grievances with their partners and if they do, they are automatically accused of blame shifting. That certainly might be the case for some but it's not logical to generalize. I certainly remember two members on here, "Working_Together" being one of them. She was berated for having no remorse for her actions because she pointed to all the pain her husband caused her in the years preceding the affair. This doesn't justify her actions, nor does she see it as such, however it's her legitimate right to expect her husband to hold some blame in all of this.


----------



## vi_bride04

Complexity said:


> The problem with a lot of people on TAM is that they have a tunnel vision with all cheaters. A lot of people like to superimpose their own experiences with cheaters and apply a blanket definition of their character. To be fair with you, I'm guilty of this too. Cheaters are not allowed to have genuine grievances with their partners and if they do, they are automatically accused of blame shifting. That certainly might be the case for some but it's not logical to generalize. I certainly remember two members on here, "Working_Together" being one of them. She was berated for having no remorse for her actions because she pointed to all the pain her husband caused her in the years preceding the affair. This doesn't justify her actions, nor does she see it as such, however it's her legitimate right to expect her husband to hold some blame in all of this.


I have to agree with this. Both myself and H had a PA, and we are both to blame for it. If it wasn't for me being cold, distant, hiding smoking, not wanting to be intimate; and if it wasn't for him not wanting to engage in conversation other than "how was your day" or not supporting my hobbies (hiking, dog rescue...) neither one of us would have strayed. It took 3 years of neglect on both of our parts to get to the point we did...but none the less, it was the horrible conditions of the marriage that helped lead to the opportunities of cheating.


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## Beowulf

Complexity said:


> I have no sympathy for abusive spouses that have been cheated on nor for those that *purposely* neglect their partners despite being repeatedly alerted to the fact. Yes to be cheated on is reprehensible and they should've taken the higher road to get a divorce but I will not go out of my way to condemn the cheater in these circumstances.


Complexity, you and I agree quite a bit but on this one I must disagree.

Example. If I have to work long hours because the family depends on me and the financial situation demands it...is that neglect? Because many spouses would consider that neglect even though there is a damned good reason for it.

What about someone in the military? They are deployed and are not with their spouse for months at a time. Is that neglect?

What about dealing with a sick relative? If a spouse has to tend to a mother or father that is sick or dying and can't spend much time with their spouse is that neglect?

All of these situations have been used as examples of neglect at one point or another either here on TAM or on other boards. The problem is that as much as we would like a concrete definition, neglect is really subjective and needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis.


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## Beowulf

Complexity said:


> No, neglect can be determined both objectively and subjectively. I intentionally put the qualifier "purposely" to stress what I mean exactly. Work and child commitments are necessities, with the prior, it's debatable.
> 
> If one prioritizes their work commitments _purposely_ to an extent that their partner becomes secondary in their lives, and despite repeated warnings of the pain it causes them they continue as normal, well again, the spouse must take some blame. However do not confuse this with those who have no other option than to take inconvenient work hours. The cheater in these circumstances takes full blame for their actions.
> 
> The problem with a lot of people on TAM is that they have a tunnel vision with all cheaters. A lot of people like to superimpose their own experiences with cheaters and apply a blanket definition of their character. To be fair with you, I'm guilty of this too. Cheaters are not allowed to have genuine grievances with their partners and if they do, they are automatically accused of blame shifting. That certainly might be the case for some but it's not logical to generalize. I certainly remember two members on here, "Working_Together" being one of them. She was berated for having no remorse for her actions because she pointed to all the pain her husband caused her in the years preceding the affair. This doesn't justify her actions, nor does she see it as such, however it's her legitimate right to expect her husband to hold some blame in all of this.


Ok, should have read ahead.

Still how can someone determine _purposely_? I tell my spouse that I have a big project and I will need to spend a lot more time at work. Am I lying? How does she know? Let's look at how two different spouses might react to the same situation. Wife #1 would understand and although she might not like it she would tolerate it for the good of the family. Wife #2 is more needy and would not be happy regardless of the reasoning. So in this case it would be neglect to Wife #2 but not Wife #1. See how that works. Neglect doesn't come with a one size fits all label.


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## Jellybeans

Complexity said:


> The problem with a lot of people on TAM is that they have a tunnel vision with all cheaters. A lot of people like to superimpose their own experiences with cheaters and apply a blanket definition of their character. To be fair with you, I'm guilty of this too. Cheaters are not allowed to have genuine grievances with their partners and if they do, they are automatically accused of blame shifting. That certainly might be the case for some but it's not logical to generalize. I certainly remember two members on here, "Working_Together" being one of them. She was berated for having no remorse for her actions because she pointed to all the pain her husband caused her in the years preceding the affair. This doesn't justify her actions, nor does she see it as such, however it's her legitimate right to expect her husband to hold some blame in all of this.


Great post and I agree. I'd "like" your post but I'm on my phone. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Complexity

Beowulf said:


> Ok, should have read ahead.
> 
> Still how can someone determine _purposely_? I tell my spouse that I have a big project and I will need to spend a lot more time at work. Am I lying? How does she know? Let's look at how two different spouses might react to the same situation. Wife #1 would understand and although she might not like it she would tolerate it for the good of the family. Wife #2 is more needy and would not be happy regardless of the reasoning. So in this case it would be neglect to Wife #2 but not Wife #1. See how that works. Neglect doesn't come with a one size fits all label.


Beowulf you raised very interesting points in your previous reply to me and I will address them but first I have to clarify myself. 

Regarding your question and example, the quandary you put yourself in is a short term matter. When an affair happens because of neglect, it's safe to assume that this neglect happened over a prolonged period. I think of those husbands who spends months on end on business trips, staying out late with "the guys", extended work hours all in the furtherance of their own career and little to do with putting food on the table. As a man, I must admit that women tend to put up with a lot but they do not hide their displeasure, hence the term "nagging". Typically these neglectful husbands are reminded constantly but play it down and think that what they're doing is for the greater good. That might be the case but that does not negate his wife's grievances. In other cases, the spouse might just be an all round pr!ck who sadistically chooses to neglect his wife. Resentment ultimately acts as primary motivator in these circumstances. 

It's ridiculous for a cheater to justify their affair on the basis of neglect you speak of. I understand what you mean that it doesn't have a one size fit definition which is why I said it's both subjective and objective. It wouldn't be a punishable offence if it couldn't be determined objectively.


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## Beowulf

Complexity said:


> Beowulf you raised very interesting points in your previous reply to me and I will address them but first I have to clarify myself.
> 
> Regarding your question and example, the quandary you put yourself in is a short term matter. When an affair happens because of neglect, it's safe to assume that this neglect happened over a prolonged period. I think of those husbands who spends months on end on business trips, staying out late with "the guys", extended work hours all in the furtherance of their own career and little to do with putting food on the table. As a man, I must admit that women tend to put up with a lot but they do not hide their displeasure, hence the term "nagging". Typically these neglectful husbands are reminded constantly but play it down and think that what they're doing is for the greater good. That might be the case but that does not negate his wife's grievances. Resentment ultimately acts as primary motivator in these circumstances.
> 
> It's ridiculous for a cheater to justify their affair on the basis of the neglect you speak of. I understand what you mean that neglect doesn't have a one size fit definition which is why I said it's both subjective and objective. It wouldn't be a punishable offence if it couldn't be determined objectively.


I look forward to more conversation but exactly what constitutes "short term?" 3 months, 6 months, a year. I've seen spouses say they have been neglected and its only been a couple of months. What if a spouse is dealing with a medical or mental issue. Depression? We have seen spouses try to justify their affairs because their SO is dealing with depression. Is that neglect? Is that justified? How long do we extend it in these cases. If a spouse is receiving treatment do we extend the neglectful period longer? See too many variables to consider.


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## morituri

Valid issues coming from one or both spouses will have to take a back seat after the nuclear fall out of infidelity IF the DS wishes that the LS remain married to him/her after his/her betrayal. That is why this forum is titled "Coping with infidelity" not "Coping with spousal neglect".


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## Beowulf

morituri said:


> Valid issues coming from one or both spouses will have to take a back seat after the nuclear fall out of infidelity IF the DS wishes that the LS remain married to him/her after his/her betrayal. That is why this forum is titled "Coping with infidelity" not "Coping with spousal neglect".


Thanks for putting things back on track Mori. I got carried away.


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## bandit.45

Yes. Good redirect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Complexity

Beowulf said:


> I look forward to more conversation but exactly what constitutes "short term?" 3 months, 6 months, a year. I've seen spouses say they have been neglected and its only been a couple of months. What if a spouse is dealing with a medical or mental issue. Depression? We have seen spouses try to justify their affairs because their SO is dealing with depression. Is that neglect? Is that justified? How long do we extend it in these cases. If a spouse is receiving treatment do we extend the neglectful period longer? See too many variables to consider.


A work project can be considered short term. How long would it reasonably take? A month, 2 months at the most? Can this be compared with those who intentionally and chronically neglect their spouses? of course not. If one is constantly reminded of the pain their neglect causes, yet decides to ignore their partner's pleas, could that not be defined as purposeful? 

If you want to look at it subjectively, who are we decide what entails neglect? isn't that up to the accuser? It's easy for us to downplay their reasons but does that address their grievances?


I wish we could take this somewhere else, sorry OP for the thread hijack.


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## TRy

Complexity said:


> No, neglect can be determined both objectively and subjectively. I intentionally put the qualifier "purposely" to stress what I mean exactly. Work and child commitments are necessities, with the prior, it's debatable.


 In the belief that you were not hijacking this thread, I assumed that you were talking about the OP and his situational. Since the OP said that the cheating wife was "not great at speaking up, so I didn't really notice", you could not apply the "purposely" label to his situation. 

Also, I played WoW to get closer to my son and got hooked on raiding. It took a while for my wife to get though to me that I was neglecting her and for me to drop raiding and eventually the game. This lasted for over a year out of an over 20 plus years of marriage. Are you saying that you would not have blamed my wife for cheating on me during that year? If so you are not being realistic. The truth is every marriage has its low periods. When my wife got too busy with her charities and friends, I did not think to cheat on her any more than she thought to cheat on me when I was raiding in WoW. Instead we worked on our marriage, which is an ongoing project that my imperfect self and my imperfect wife seem to always need to be working on.


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## Bucksinnc

I know this thread was pretty much hijacked, but between all that I got some decent advice and it helped me have the strength to do what was necessary.

I decided yesterday that I could not wait any longer for a definitive answer. The uncertainty was ripping me apart mentally and physically (have lost 9 pounds since the beginning of last week).

I scheduled an appointment for Thursday with the MC. I came to her last night and started by telling her I loved her. I told her I scheduled the appointment and no matter what I would be going to the MC and if she thought there was any chance, if she thought she would actually try, then I wanted her there with me. But if she wasn't able to completely give herself to the process then I did not want her there just going through the motions.

Before she said anything I also told her that the lies needed to stop. I found out she made a secret e-mail account, and while she only wrote him once, it was the deceit that I had a problem with. I told her if this is the end for us that I don't want to go out resenting her for being dishonest, it was time for her to be completely honest, not for us, but for our kids. The last thing I want is for either of us to end this relationship resenting the other, because it's not good for our boys.

She was honest (it still took a little coaxing) with me. She told me he had called her at work twice this week and she admitted to making the e-mail account. I then reiterated my desire for her to be there with me Thursday, and she said she just couldn't do it.

I'm debating as to whether or not to make another thread about what's happening next. We did talk more afterward and it was very productive in figuring out how we need to handle things over the next few weeks/months, both financially and for our children. We both felt it was a good start and it helped to calm both of our fears. I don't want to get into any of this stuff right now though, if/when I do I will make a thread in the appropriate section.

As for now, it's time to do what I said I would and become a better, stronger person. I want my children to know that I love them, I want my family/friends to know I'll be OK, and I want to show everyone what I'm truly capable of. I know I'll have plenty of bad days/moments, but I can feel a renewed energy and I'm eager to take the next step in my life.


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## bandit.45

I know you don't want to do this, but you need to tell her family what is going on. Or get her to do it. She needs to be honest for once. She needs to tell them everything. She may be talking nice now but I guarantee you she will try to pin everything on you to save face with her folks. 

And do the 180 to protect yourself emotionally and to help prepare yourself for the tumult of the months to come. She will take her affair to the next level and it will go physical with him. Its no holds barred now. You have essentially given her the green light to pursue a full on relationship with the other man. 

The Healing Heart: The 180


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## strikethree

OP, pull the trigger already. At this point she won't react to anything but strength and really it just seems to me that she's done. So help her out on her merry and kick her out and file papers.

I mean, won't go to MC? What else do you need to know?


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## allthegoodnamesaregone

Complexity said:


> Beowulf you raised very interesting points in your previous reply to me and I will address them but first I have to clarify myself.
> 
> Regarding your question and example, the quandary you put yourself in is a short term matter. When an affair happens because of neglect, it's safe to assume that this neglect happened over a prolonged period. I think of those husbands who spends months on end on business trips, staying out late with "the guys", extended work hours all in the furtherance of their own career and little to do with putting food on the table. As a man, I must admit that women tend to put up with a lot but they do not hide their displeasure, hence the term "nagging". Typically these neglectful husbands are reminded constantly but play it down and think that what they're doing is for the greater good. That might be the case but that does not negate his wife's grievances. In other cases, the spouse might just be an all round pr!ck who sadistically chooses to neglect his wife. Resentment ultimately acts as primary motivator in these circumstances.
> 
> It's ridiculous for a cheater to justify their affair on the basis of neglect you speak of. I understand what you mean that it doesn't have a one size fit definition which is why I said it's both subjective and objective. It wouldn't be a punishable offence if it couldn't be determined objectively.


To me "Neglect" means to knowingly abandon something. From what I read in a lot of these threads this is not the case, the BS is often oblivious to what the WS is claiming to go through. The WS has not been nagging or have made their feelings known in a way that is obvious to their spouse . 

In a lot of cases these "Feelings of neglect" don't even happen until after weeks of some OM whispering in their ear stuff they've read in romance novels.

Another Forum I read has over 16,000 posts with this same issue listed, some polling has been done and many of the wives have this problem with speaking their minds. Many it seems have avoidance personalities and simply let it fester for years and hardly say anything, start EA's online , at work or on FB and it goes from there.

In order to add some humor to this whole subject here's a link for you, note there are "F" bombs, but there is some frightening truth to these comedy routines:

Chris Rock Marriage life - YouTube

Chris Rock and love - YouTube


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## Bucksinnc

strikethree said:


> OP, pull the trigger already. At this point she won't react to anything but strength and really it just seems to me that she's done. So help her out on her merry and kick her out and file papers.
> 
> I mean, won't go to MC? What else do you need to know?


I guess what I was trying to say didn't come across well enough.

It's over. The decision was go to MC or we're done. She said she couldn't commit to the MC, so that was it. When I was talking about "what happens next", I meant that we were working out details about how to proceed now that we're done. We have kids, we have other financial responsibilities, and we need to make sure we work those things out.


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## morituri

Now go and do it. In the meantime follow Bandit45's advice and implement the 180 to emotionally detach from her and move on with your life without her.


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## Shaggy

Bucksinnc said:


> I guess what I was trying to say didn't come across well enough.
> 
> It's over. The decision was go to MC or we're done. She said she couldn't commit to the MC, so that was it. When I was talking about "what happens next", I meant that we were working out details about how to proceed now that we're done. We have kids, we have other financial responsibilities, and we need to make sure we work those things out.


Then act swiftly and decisively, file for divorce, expose to any who doesn't already know, and file to full custody, and move money. The full custody is to establish a hard strong start for bargaining. She needs to understand that now the decision has been made, you will now act.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

Wow...what you are going through is incredibly hard. You are being incredibly rational and logical thorough out the whole thing. You will be proud of yourself once you are done with this thing.


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## Subi

I think you are depressed and need to sort yourself out first and foremost. I do not see how you will make this marriage work if you feel so incompetent within youself. You need to get yourself motivated, feel part of the family again and reclaim your rightful place in the marriage. Otherwise you are going to be going round and round in circles.. something she just does not have any time for. Let her know that you need to fix yourself and if she will work with you on this, that will be a good place to start. The two go hand in hand. You need to start by looking after yourself, love yourself and then you might have some energy left to work on the relationship. the lack of interest you talk about is very typical of a depressed person and it can wear a spouse down. You need to bring the focus back to your family. Forget about this guy and just draw her attention to what you two have ie. the kids.


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## bandit.45

Subi said:


> I think you are depressed and need to sort yourself out first and foremost. I do not see how you will make this marriage work if you feel so incompetent within youself. You need to get yourself motivated, feel part of the family again and reclaim your rightful place in the marriage. Otherwise you are going to be going round and round in circles.. something she just does not have any time for. Let her know that you need to fix yourself and if she will work with you on this, that will be a good place to start. The two go hand in hand. You need to start by looking after yourself, love yourself and then you might have some energy left to work on the relationship. the lack of interest you talk about is very typical of a depressed person and it can wear a spouse down. You need to bring the focus back to your family. Forget about this guy and just draw her attention to what you two have ie. the kids.


He has already said it is over. There is no marriage to save. He needs to see a lawyer, claim as many rights up front as he can, secure custody of his kids and do the 180 to protect himself emotionally. She is not going to stop seeing the OM.


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## happyman64

I will make it clear for everyone.

Bucks wife has checked out of the marriage.

I am sad for you today Bucks. I know you wanted that last chance.

I think you know you cannot trust your wife anymore. You might think she is being honest but I think her relationship with the OM
has gone further than you think. You keep catching her in lies when she should not be a coward with you. You have kept a level head and I applaud you for it.

All you can do now is work on you. Be a better man and be a better Dad.

And the team is right. Go see an attorney now.

Detach, detach, detach. Your wife already has.

*Again, I am sorry for your loss. Like Sham Wow says "It is go time"!!!
*
HM64


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## Jonesey

Subi said:


> I think you are depressed and need to sort yourself out first and foremost. I do not see how you will make this marriage work if you feel so incompetent within youself. You need to get yourself motivated, feel part of the family again and reclaim your rightful place in the marriage. Otherwise you are going to be going round and round in circles.. something she just does not have any time for. Let her know that you need to fix yourself and if she will work with you on this, that will be a good place to start. The two go hand in hand. You need to start by looking after yourself, love yourself and then you might have some energy left to work on the relationship. the lack of interest you talk about is very typical of a depressed person and it can wear a spouse down. You need to bring the focus back to your family. Forget about this guy and just draw her attention to what you two have ie. the kids.


*sigh*:scratchhead:


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