# Critique of 'Your Brain On Porn'



## johnnycomelately

Many anti-porn posters have referenced Your Brain On Porn when arguing that ‘porn addiction’ is real and is a useful term for those dealing with marital problems where excess porn use is a factor. 

Some have challenged those of us who believe that there is no such thing as porn addiction to watch the presentations posted on the YBOP website. I did that and wanted to start a thread to discuss some of the issues I found with the presentations and the author of those presentations and the site.

First off there is a credibility issue. Gary Wilson and his wife, and partner in the venture, Marnia Robinson both make money running websites and selling books about this subject. They profit from the assertion they are trying to make. This calls into question their objectivity. If you are making a scientific assertion, as he is, objectivity is paramount. Using their presentations, books and essays as evidence in this debate would be tantamount to someone using research published by a porn director.

The second issue of credibility is around their qualifications. The site states that: “As *adjunct faculty* at Southern Oregon University, Gary taught anatomy and *physiology labs*. He has also taught anatomy, physiology, and pathology at *vocational* schools in *California and Oregon*.” 

What does that mean exactly? No mention of neurobiology or any other related field and a lot of vagueness about where exactly he taught and at what level. If he is a professor, why not say so? He is not listed as a faculty member of Southern Oregon University and he is vague about where he taught. Why not be open?

As for the ‘facts’ that he presents there are a number of issues so far (I haven't listened to all the presentations yes): 

1. He admits that APA seven part ‘test’ for addiction is only to be used for substance addiction and that he has omitted parts. 

2. He states that a ‘brain change’ is an indicator of addiction. Your brain ‘changes’ every time you drink water, sleep, hyperventilate, have a religious experience or laugh. So by his definition we are addicted to virtually any activity. By most scientific definitions 'brain atrophy' or 'permanent anatomical' changes are needed to indicate addiction. Neither of these has been proven to occur with extended porn use.

3. In his next slide he asked if behavioural ‘addictions’ such as food, sex and gambling cause brain changes that indicate addiction. Then he states “of course they do that’s why they are addictions.” 

This is sort of circular argument wouldn’t make it past your average member of a high school debating club. Basically he is saying: 'It indicates addiction because it is an indicator of addiction.’

4. He claims heavy porn users suffer from withdrawal symptoms when they stop, but doesn’t provide any evidence other than the anonymous comments on his website. 

Some of these ‘symptoms’ include:

Muscle aches, joint pains and fever (flu like) - day 154.
Always feeling cold, even in front of the fireplace
Tension: headaches, mild muscle aches, stiffness all over, a feeling like pressure on my teeth
I have pain in body, which keeps moving from one place to another
I am a composer…I can’t compose.

Are we supposed to believe that these symptoms have just escaped the notice of the medical profession? He also fails to mention that part of the ‘rebooting’ process is abstinence, from sex and masturbation. He does not control for the effect of that, so his evidence is basically worthless.

As I said I haven’t finished part 3 and still have parts 4 and 5 to go, but so far what I have seen is a misleading, incoherent and irrational. 

I can’t decide whether this is just poor research by a misguided layman or a deliberate attempt to cash in on the anti-porn and self-help market.


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## unbelievable

There's also "hand fatigue" and "unexplained weight" gain from sitting on one's behind for countless unproductive hours, "hearing problem" associated with listening to a pissed off, frustrated wife, "sexual dysfunction" because his wife is less than enthused to have sex with the porn viewer, "delusions of adequacy" which comes from an overweight 45 year old man sitting in the dark, willie in hand, imagining he could really have sex with that hot 20 year old on the screen.


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## Wiserforit

johnnycomelately said:


> deliberate attempt to cash in on the anti-porn and self-help market.


There ya go.

Reminds me of the movie "Reefer Madness". Pot can be a problem and even an addiction for some people but it hardly makes that laughable movie true. Likewise, porn can be an addiction for some people but that doesn't make this anti-porn piece true either.


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## BasementMonk

As for the "adjunct faculty" reference, I can share some some insight. I am an administrator at a large university and I hire adjunct quite often and have taught as an adjunct as well. Most adjunct have a Masters degree or better and ususually teach lower section courses. Rarely do they serve in a teaching/research function or teach higher level courses, except maybe business (if they have some claim to fame). Vocational probably means community college or even high school, depending on the state school system..

But I believe they are correct on two key facts: veiwing porn can become an unhealthy addiction and there are often withdrawal symptoms. I doubt those symptoms include feeling cold and joint pain ; more likely the symptoms are emotional (moody, irriatablility, etc.).

For clarification, I can think of several behaviours and/or activities that are in my opinion are destructive addiction: excessive gambling, crazy body building, hard core video gaming, etc.


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## johnnycomelately

BasementMonk said:


> But I believe they are correct on two key facts: veiwing porn can become an unhealthy addiction and there are often withdrawal symptoms. I doubt those symptoms include feeling cold and joint pain ; more likely the symptoms are emotional (moody, irriatablility, etc.).


No-one has been able to prove that withdrawal from porn produces any symptoms. Certainly Your Brain On Porn fails to make a credible case.



BasementMonk said:


> For clarification, I can think of several behaviours and/or activities that are in my opinion are destructive addiction: excessive gambling, crazy body building, hard core video gaming, etc.


In casual language we use the word addiction all the time. 'He is addicted to golf' or 'I am addicted to Grey's Anatomy' etc. But in scientific terms excessive porn use is not an addiction. 

There is no doubt that these activities can become destructive _behaviours_, but the case for them being called addictions has failed. The American Phsychological Association views porn use as secondary to other problems or disorders and has rejected 'porn addiction' as a disorder. 

This is important to people on this board because they need to focus on the cause of their problems, not the symptoms.


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## johnnycomelately

Another couple of statements he makes are also questionable:

- concealing your activity shows it is an addiction. 

What rubbish. I conceal my bowel movements and I conceal the fact that I have hemorrhoids. The reason people conceal their porn use is the social stigma attached to it. 

- 'If you are doing porn rather than doing life, you are addicted' 

By that definition we are all addicted to TAM, sleeping and, you could argue, work.

The more I read, see and listen to this guy, the more I see a snake oil salesman trying to frighten people into buying his wares.


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## deejov

Good post.

The problem with generalizations, is they are meant for everyone.
Not everyone who drinks becomes addicted to alcohol.
But maybe it's important to put that information out there, so people know of the _potential_ problems they might encounter.

As for the withdrawl symptons, well other than an anonymous comment, do people go tell their doctor about it? Not likely.

As with anything in life, if you are doing something that is being used as a crutch or mechasim to cope with a problem, maybe look at the problem itself. 

You don't always know that porn is the problem unless you stop using it. 

Logical advice to remove external factors from the equation, to better look at the problem. 

I have no problem advising a poster to stop using porn if there are marriage problems. For awhile, anyways. Or make a deal within your relationship of sorts. Does a few things.
Makes them focus on the marriage more. Not getting your needs met? Then you are forced to work on the problem. Puts some pressure where it's needed.

Let's face it. If you arent 'getting your needs met, you could stroll along for a very long time with porn and just ignore it.

It's a sign of accountability. Force your partner to look at the problem. Be true to yourself. Why are you settling? Why are you allowing your partner to do that to you?

Maybe sometimes the answer is because it's what you prefer.
But no one wants to say that. 

Can't tell if it's a crutch for you or a cover up for lack of sex unless you are willing to take it out of the equation.


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## johnnycomelately

deejov said:


> Logical advice to remove external factors from the equation, to better look at the problem.
> 
> I have no problem advising a poster to stop using porn if there are marriage problems. For awhile, anyways. Or make a deal within your relationship of sorts. Does a few things.
> Makes them focus on the marriage more. Not getting your needs met? Then you are forced to work on the problem. Puts some pressure where it's needed.


That is my point. If you declare someone an addict the focus is on the porn. The treatment is usually a 12-step type programme and group therapy designed to _get you off porn_. The real marital issues don't feature.


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## deejov

Oh, but I do believe some people can be addicted to it. Absolutely. And many more than would admit. 

If you look at the definiton of addiction itself, it qualifies.

Yes, they need to deal with the addiction before they can deal with the relationship. That is true for any addiction. 

Some people go drink instead of dealing with their relationship or personal problems. Some people use porn to do the same thing. 

In both cases, you need to deal with the coping mechanism someone has chosen in order for them to fully move forward.

Otherwise, when problems come up, it's just too easy to just go bury it again. Isn't it?


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## johnnycomelately

deejov said:


> Oh, but I do believe some people can be addicted to it. Absolutely. And many more than would admit.
> 
> If you look at the definiton of addiction itself, it qualifies.


It doesn't, which is why it was rejected by the APA. There is no credible evidence of withdrawal and none of:
_
(7) The substance use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by the substance._


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## Wiserforit

You can make all the same statements about women who read romance novels or who watch soap operas on TV. Criticize them for not living in reality and wanting the idealized muscle-bound dude with long flowing hair on the horse, or the young doctor. 

This has an audience that resonates with women jealous of porn.


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## johnnycomelately

I have just sat through the first presentation on 'Porn induced Erectile Dysfunction'. Again this work is peppered with falsehoods and speculation. It spectacularly fails to prove the case.

His central 'evidence' for porn use causing ED is that when they follow his programme and stop, their 'desire' comes back. Firstly ED is characterised by an inability to get an erection, not loss of desire. Secondly he fails to mention that part of his 'rebooting' programme is abstaining for masturbation and sex altogether. He doesn't control for the fact that the return of desire could be due to the abstinence, which seems very logical. This makes his conclusions pure speculation.

He exposes his true feelings about porn by saying that if shame and guilt were the cause of ED they it would show up as soon as the person started to use porn. This shows that he feels that porn use is shameful and guilt inducing. The assumption that all porn users feel guilt and shame is patently false.

He uses an article from the Japan Times that states that there has been a decrease in interest in sex among Japanese men as evidence of porn induced ED. He links this article to porn induced ED by stating that the Japanese are tech savvy and 'love' porn. The article itself does not mention porn and there was no concurrent study of these men's porn use. For all we know the men who are not interested in don't use porn. The article itself attributes the problem to a rise in 'passivity' amongst men, mobile phone use and the economic situation.

Young men, couples shunning sex - The Japan Times

This man is trying to dupe people into believing that there is a link between porn use and ED, when none has been found. He has no real evidence and resorts to false representations to try and make his point.

This all might seem harmless, but when you think about the fact that compulsive masturbation can cause the symptoms described and is considered a symptom of an underlying problem this man is preventing people from getting appropriate treatment.

_There is no scientific evidence of a causative relationship between masturbation and any form of mental disorder. Excessive or compulsive sexual behavior is generally understood to be a symptom rather than a cause.

Levine M. P., Troiden R. R. (1988). "The myth of sexual compulsivity". Journal of Sex Research 25 (3): 347–363. 

Giles J (2006). Archives of Sexual Behavior 35_


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## eyuop

You sound to me amazingly like an alcoholic trying to justify his drinking problem by attacking Alcoholics Anonymous and criticizing their 12 step program.

I was addicted to porn. I justified it every day. I "critiqued" the same types of programs. I thought all of those side affects and everything were bogus. Most of them didn't apply to me, and so I thought most of the studies were ridiculous, too. I agree with you that these people are probably profiting off of something very lucrative and much of what they are saying is bogus. But there is that pesky baby in the bathwater.

I had to ask myself why I cared about all of this stuff. Why did I care if someone profited off of a book about porn addiction? I didn't care about the other self-help books out there that were making a killing for the authors. I only cared about those who might make me feel a little uncomfortable and even guilty or ashamed.

I realized eventually that I wanted more out of life than having to be slave to the adrenaline and endorphin high that porn created for me. I didn't want to unwind or de-stress any longer to videos of people having sex. I thought getting married would have ended the addiction, but it didn't -- and then I thought being a dad -- having children would finally give me the incentive to stop. But nope. If anything, being married and the stresses of life being married with children only made it worse. I learned to hide it, justify it, and compartmentalize it. Here are some of my justification tactics. My wife would not feel like having sex (maybe she was tired from a long day, or whatever). Or she would be on her period or not be affectionate for a while. Whenever I felt a little sexually neglected I would find a time and place to view porn and get off. I didn't find the women in porn more attractive than my wife. In fact, some of them were not as good looking -- but what I was after was that rush of seeing a women really into it and the whole rush from seeing things taboo or kinky. I didn't have a desire to do any of those things for real or actually be with anyone else than my wife. I just liked to live the fantasies vicariously where it was safe and I could just escape -- like watching a movie or playing a video game. 

The truth was, I was cheating myself. I didn't think I was cheating my wife at all (she had plenty of good sex -- more than she wanted sometimes). But what I was cheating her in was sharing my heart with her -- my desire for more and better intimacy with her. I was shortchanging my relationship because I had an alternative that was just a few mouse clicks away. I wasn't always honest with her about what I was feeling regarding sex. Our libidos were mismatched (she is a happy 2 times a week sort of gal) and my libido was pretty much trained to be through the roof by my porn addiction. I was trading the chemical rush in my brain (adrenaline) and then the relaxing feelings (endorphins) for better intimacy and communication with my wife.

It has been several weeks now that I've not looked at porn. I'm communicating with my wife about my feelings and my desires. My libido isn't as crazy, but it is still higher than hers -- and we are talking about what to do about that, rather that me using this as an excuse to hide and get off to porn somewhere else. 

Do I hate porn? No. I actually loved it. I was a connoisseur. I could appreciate the finer points and details and even critique the movies. I figured that if I was going to get into it, I might as well be really into it and not watch the cheap, badly made stuff. And I was truly a master separating porn from my real life. No affairs or cheating (after 17 years of marriage). No trying to coerce my wife into doing anything distasteful. Never once treating other women in my life in any way that was disrespectful or uncouth. No sexual harassment or embarrassing things. I was like a person who loved to play violent video games who in real life was a good, caring doctor or a surgeon. So all of those studies that supposedly show that men who are addicted to porn start thinking of women as objects and start ogling and being all perverted didn't apply to me one bit.

I finally arrived at the place where I no longer wanted porn a part of my life. I wanted better and more profound intimacy with my wife. I didn't want to hide any more. I wanted to be free from that chemical buzz that kept calling me. I wanted natural, fulfilling, and meaningful sex with my wife. I already had good sex with her, but I had to admit that some of my most exciting times sexually were not with her but were in front of a computer screen. I wanted to tell her. I even wanted her to get into porn with me (thought it might be fun to do it with her), but when it came down to it, I didn't really want that at all. I wanted to be free from it and sail on to a better place. 

Just my thoughts


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## johnnycomelately

eyuop said:


> You sound to me amazingly like an alcoholic trying to justify his drinking problem by attacking Alcoholics Anonymous and criticizing their 12 step program.


Yes, anyone who challenges this junk is obviously an addict. Makes perfect sense and is a mature argument.


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## deejov

OP,
I will respectfully say that no one else can diagnose an addiction except the person themselves, who is living with it. 

Some light drinkers consider themselves alcoholics. That is their choice. 

The end result is someone recognizes it changes their outlook on life, and does something about it. 

You don't have to agree. A successful argument doesn't mean you changed someone's point of view, it means you were able to effectively express yours. 

Your post was well researched, and very insightful. Lots of things to ponder.


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## johnnycomelately

deejov said:


> OP,
> I will respectfully say that no one else can diagnose an addiction except the person themselves, who is living with it.
> 
> Some light drinkers consider themselves alcoholics. That is their choice.
> 
> The end result is someone recognizes it changes their outlook on life, and does something about it.
> 
> You don't have to agree. A successful argument doesn't mean you changed someone's point of view, it means you were able to effectively express yours.
> 
> Your post was well researched, and very insightful. Lots of things to ponder.


Of course we can diagnose ourselves any way we want, but in terms of medicine and psychology an incorrect diagnosis is dangerous. 

People are all too ready to 'diagnose' porn addiction these days, even though the majority of psychology professionals believe such an addiction doesn't exist. This board is peppered with 'my partner is a porn addict' threads. I have been diagnosed a porn addict three times just because I disagree with the YBOP 'expert'. It is wrong and it is counterproductive at best, dangerous at worst.


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## johnnycomelately

In his presentation Gary Wilson says 'No studies have been done on the effects of porn on the brain'. That is false:

From Psychology Today:
_In research invited for submission to the journal Socioaffective Neuroscience of Psychology, authors Steele, Staley, Fong and Prause used EEG testing to examine the effects of visual erotica, on the brains of people who felt they had problems controlling their porn use. 52 'sex addicts', including men and women, had their brain’s electrical activity examined while they looked at erotic imagery. Sex addiction theory predicts that these individuals would show brain patterns consistent with that of cocaine addicts, who demonstrate specific electrical changes in the brain’s activity, in response to drug-related cues. Sex addiction proponents, from Rob Weiss to Carnes have long argued that sex and porn are “like cocaine” in the brain.

But, when EEG’s were administered to these individuals, as they viewed erotic stimuli, results were surprising, and not at all consistent with sex addiction theory. If viewing pornography actually was habituating (or desensitizing), like drugs are, then viewing pornography would have a diminished electrical response in the brain. In fact, in these results, there was no such response. Instead, the participants’ overall demonstrated increased electrical brain responses to the erotic imagery they were shown, just like the brains of “normal people” as has been *shown in hundreds of studies*._

What he means is no studies which back up his crack-pot theory.


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## deejov

johnnycomelately said:


> Of course we can diagnose ourselves any way we want, but in terms of medicine and psychology an incorrect diagnosis is dangerous.
> 
> People are all too ready to 'diagnose' porn addiction these days, even though the majority of psychology professionals believe such an addiction doesn't exist. This board is peppered with 'my partner is a porn addict' threads. I have been diagnosed a porn addict three times just because I disagree with the YBOP 'expert'. It is wrong and it is counterproductive at best, dangerous at worst.


Yup, what you are saying makes sense. For you.
Applicable only to you. You personally can decide what was right or wrong, in your case 

So can everyone else. If they believe they have a porn addiction, then information will lead them to help. And I'm sure you are helping some readers now to seek help for their addiction, your posts have some great data!


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## johnnycomelately

deejov said:


> If they believe they have a porn addiction, then information will lead them to help. And I'm sure you are helping some readers now to seek help for their addiction, your posts have some great data!


Not at all, if they believe they have a porn addiction they are mistaken (according to the APA and the majority of experts) and missing the real issue. They are focusing on a symptom and ignoring the cause. This silly fad is making people less likely to resolve their problems.


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## King65

I don't believe its an addiction. But for me, I know MY own behavior and love for it, has destroyed a lot of my relationships. I have a story on it in another section of the forum.


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## johnnycomelately

So, despite the DSM-V being citised for 'diagnostic inflation', having 
included Skin-Picking Disorder, Binge Eating Disorder, Disruptive Mood Dysregulation Disorder and Hoarding Disorder, it has, yet again, rejected inclusion of Hypersexual Disorder and sex and porn addiction in general. 

_"A proposal of sex addiction was submitted to the Addictive Disorder workgroup, where it was rejected, on the grounds of having* no scientific basis*. "_ - Psychology Today

When are we going to admit to ourselves that these 'disorders' don't exist and are just an excuse for lack of self-control and a way for Big Pharma and 'Sex Addiction' specialists to make money?

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/women-who-stray/201212/sex-addiction-rejected-yet-again-apa


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## AgentD

King65 said:


> I don't believe its an addiction. But for me, I know MY own behavior and love for it, has destroyed a lot of my relationships.


And that is the bottom line. Whether people believe its an addiction or not, if its a behavior that is destroying a relationship, then it needs to be dealt with.


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## Wiserforit

johnnycomelately said:


> When are we going to admit to ourselves that these 'disorders' don't exist and are just an excuse for lack of self-control and a way for Big Pharma and 'Sex Addiction' specialists to make money?


Plus the crowd that views porn as an infringement on using sex as a weapon of power. 

It is an "addiction" if the desire is targeted to anyone/anything but you. When you can direct it towards yourself it isn't an addiction.


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## johnnycomelately

AgentD said:


> And that is the bottom line. Whether people believe its an addiction or not, if its a behavior that is destroying a relationship, then it needs to be dealt with.


That is exactly why 'porn addiction' is such a bad idea. Blaming the porn instead of dealing with the real issues will only prolong the unhappiness. Treating the symptom and ignoring the cause is a terrible mistake.


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## CallaLily

johnnycomelately said:


> That is exactly why 'porn addiction' is such a bad idea. Blaming the porn instead of dealing with the real issues will only prolong the unhappiness. Treating the symptom and ignoring the cause is a terrible mistake.


:iagree:

I agree and there fore porn shouldn't be blamed, but the person should be for their choices, and lack of self control. Now if this is an occassional thing its one thing, but I'm meaning someone who does this a lot,and if someones poor behavior and lack of self control is an all the time thing, and they just can't control their urge, then it needs to be addressed.

So maybe these porn threads shouldn't be titled things like, "Porn has ruined my life", but more along the lines of, "My spouses behavior has ruined my life."


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## johnnycomelately

CallaLily said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I agree and there fore porn shouldn't be blamed, but the person should be for their choices, and lack of self control. Now if this is an occassional thing its one thing, but I'm meaning someone who does this a lot,and if someones poor behavior and lack of self control is an all the time thing, and they just can't control their urge, then it needs to be addressed.
> 
> So maybe these porn threads shouldn't be titled things like, "Porn has ruined my life", but more along the lines of, "My spouses behavior has ruined my life."


Exactly. 

By saying 'I have porn addiction' or like Tiger Woods 'I have sex addiction' everybody gets off lightly. Poor Tiger has 'sex addiction' it's an illness, it's not his fault. 

The reason this fallacy is so appealing is that it takes blame away from the perpetrator, helps his/her spouse to save face and some therapists get to make a lot of money. Everybody wins! Except the behavioural/relationship issues are still there, untouched.


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## CallaLily

Johnny, you have some good points on this. I was wondering do you feel the same about say, people with alcohol/drug "addictions?" Do you also believe its a disease?


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## johnnycomelately

CallaLily said:


> Johnny, you have some good points on this. I was wondering do you feel the same about say, people with alcohol/drug "addictions?" Do you also believe its a disease?


I think that substance dependancy is well proven. In fact I believe there is a genetic component, at least to alcohol addiction. The negative health effects of excess consumption are clear. This goes some way to justifying the 'disease' label.


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## trey69

Everything starts out as a thought. So I often wonder if people with "diseased" minds if their thought process is what makes them choose, to drink, to take drugs, to watch porn all the time etc etc. 

My first wife was a hardcore drug addict,and I can tell you I do believe she had a diseased mind, her thought process on things were really messed up. I'm not just meaning while on drugs either, but her logic and thought process seemed kind off to me before drugs ever entered the picture. I think once on drugs, it just made the thought process worse. I'm assuming it can be the same for porn. And yes, I'm meaning those whose porn watching outweigh that of a healthy loving relationship.


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## Katia1010

Would you call viewing porn morning, noon and night everyday an addiction? My husband views it when he wakes up for about a half an hour, views it at work on his phone (I can tell by the data he uses) for about a half hour and then in the evenings when I am doing the dishes in another room or walking the dog - that's about another hour. This is usually everyday. He sneaks it and quickly clicks off when I enter the room. He has an e-mail address where he posts his links to Tumblr and other porn sites for easy access. I am sure his bookmarks are stored waaay down deep inside his computer. Would that be an addiction? He is hurting me. I find it disrespectful to me as his wife.


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## Katia1010

I forgot to add that he gets home from work 3 hours and 45 minutes before I do. So he is also viewing during those hours. Sometimes I walk in the door to find his face flushed from viagra.


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## FemBot

Addiction is mostly about maladaptive behavior especially when chimical drugs are not involved. To say someone is not addicted because there is no chemical change in the brain is misleading IMO. A person who cannot physically control an activity eventhough it's hurting those around them is an addict. The only major difference is that the brain is not chemically dependant on the stimuli. The person is addicted to the behavior for whatever reason. It can be any behavior really.


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## thatcleanhippyguy

Firstly, any addiction can be detrimental to your health. Chocolate, coconut, tanning, food, etc... 

Secondly, the problem with porn is not the porn itself, and how it objectifies women (unlike many feminists would have you think). The problem, is that it creates a false reality, that, most confused men, would honestly prefer to be true. Anyways, with the rise of feminism after WW2, (equal rights yadayada), what happened is romanticism declined as those feminists recreated the image of what a "real man" is. The rise of equal rights to women inadvertently lowered the self-esteem in men.

Porn has always been around, but when it became digital, it boosted the decline of romanticism, by giving men (yes porn was created by and for men), an alternative to sex. Men became lazy. The key thing to remember is that masturbation is not actually bad, despite what many claim. If you read the kama sutra books or any east indian texts about sex, you will see it as something magical, divine. Anyone can masterbate with their imagination. The problem with porn is that it takes away that imagination and replaces it with an illusion. The rise of the porn industry is nothing but a reflection of the selfishness of men. when 3D porn comes out, it will pave the way to concepts, such as what we saw on the original Total Recall. Robot *****s. Yeah. 

Thirdly, the "real" scary thing though, is that porn is nothing but a distraction. If you take a look at hollywood and the general media, they create this very same illusion but subliminally (skinny women, what constitutes sexy, etc...) 

Apparently there are or soon will soon have over a billion porn sites on the internet. That's a lot of filth.

Lastly, my wife has clearly stated, for the record, in times of need, she would much rather I get off to a screen then cheat with another. Makes sense to me. Masturbating to porn is not cheating, imo. That's silly.


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## johnnycomelately

FemBot said:


> Addiction is mostly about maladaptive behavior especially when chimical drugs are not involved. To say someone is not addicted because there is no chemical change in the brain is misleading IMO.


I didn't say that it is not an addiction because there is 'no chemical change in the brain' there are chemical changes in the brain with everything we do, from smiling, laughing, eating and thinking about what you are going to do next weekend. My point was this is not proof of addiction.


FemBot said:


> A person who cannot physically control an activity eventhough it's hurting those around them is an addict. The only major difference is that the brain is not chemically dependant on the stimuli. The person is addicted to the behavior for whatever reason. It can be any behavior really.


So a person who can't stop himself hitting his wife is a 'Gender Violence Addict'. That is silly. The definition of addiction does not involve whether or not someone is being hurt by the activity. 

The APA defines addiction as: "a condition in which the body must have a drug to avoid physical and psychological withdrawal symptoms."

Porn does not fall into this definition.


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## johnnycomelately

Katia1010 said:


> Would you call viewing porn morning, noon and night everyday an addiction? My husband views it when he wakes up for about a half an hour, views it at work on his phone (I can tell by the data he uses) for about a half hour and then in the evenings when I am doing the dishes in another room or walking the dog - that's about another hour. This is usually everyday. He sneaks it and quickly clicks off when I enter the room. He has an e-mail address where he posts his links to Tumblr and other porn sites for easy access. I am sure his bookmarks are stored waaay down deep inside his computer. Would that be an addiction? He is hurting me. I find it disrespectful to me as his wife.


Your husband has behavioural issues and may have some sort of compulsive disorder, of which his excessive porn use is a symptom. He needs help, but labelling him a 'porn addict' will mean that the help will be focussed on his porn use, not the real issue.


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## trey69

Thought this was kinda interesting when describing addictions and compulsions. 

What is the Difference Between Addictions and Compulsions


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## Starstarfish

Now to note before the comments below - I've never seen "Your Brain on Porn" and porn isn't an issue in my marriage because if by some miracle my H uses porn (overcoming his very strict religious upbringing), he's amazingly discrete about it (I've never seen any, I've never "caught" him) so - these comments are gleaned from an outsider perspective. 

I might suggest it could be an impulse control disorder. 



> Impulse control disorder or ICD is a class of psychiatric disorders characterized by impulsivity – failure to resist a temptation, urge or impulse that may harm oneself or others.


If you do something repeatedly despite the potential or real harm to yourself and others, its a problem. Are all people who enjoy more porn than their spouse agrees with "addicts", well, no. Not by any means. And yes, in most cases the issue is the couple in question needing to agree on boundaries - and in many cases, no the porn itself isn't the issue - but behavior and feelings that need to be worked out, potentially with professional third-party arbitration (AKA marriage counseling.)

But what about the following scenarios in which case we substitute "porn use" for obsessive gambling scenarios, :

- You are living hand-to-mouth because of how much you are spending on porn
- You are constantly risking getting (or actually have been) fired from work by accessing porn at inappropriate times
- You are tired during the day, and it is affecting your performance at work because you stay up at all hours of the night looking at porn, yet can't stop. 
- You pass up on social situations and often arrange your schedule so you can make sure to have enough porn time
- You are distracted during what should be enjoyable activities (outings with the kids, dates with the wife, golf) because you are agitated and can't get back to the porn
- You resent others (including your spouse or family) from infringing on your porn use time, and might become violent, angry, or belligerent as a result
- If there was a prolonged power outage (or a natural disaster) would your primary concern be safety or shelter for yourself and loved ones or - what am I going to do about my porn?

Whether or not that's an addiction, an impulse control problem, or whatever you want to label it - the situations above have gone above and beyond a martial issue with sex. It's beginning to negatively impact your day to day life and its beginning to affect other people (particularly if its making you violent.) 
It's a problem that needs to be addressed with intervention, potentially of the professional kind. And while yes, very much so there might be deeper underlying causes to what's fueling the issue, those other problems may or may not in and of themselves have a clinical diagnosis. 

So - I'm not going to debate if labeling it as an addition let's people "get off easy" (which the irony of that statement in relation to porn isn't lost on me, btw :rofl. But - if its a recognized disorder, it might mean some people with a legitimate problem that needs professional intervention might be able to better access that help because insurance will cover it and if its something that primary care doctors are more on the look out for. 

And yes - the above is an extreme example. But - the examples that end up with you getting a clinical diagnosis are the extreme examples. Wanting a clean kitchen doesn't label you with OCD. Staying up for three days straight clean or not eating because you are scared to make the kitchen dirty does. Likewise, using porn doesn't make you an addict or give you a "porn impulse issue" - but when you start replacing meaningful interactions with other people, when it starts to make you violent, or it starts to affect your employ-ability - it's an issue. 
Regardless of whether or not its chemically affecting your brain.


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## johnnycomelately

Starstarfish said:


> Now to note before the comments below - I've never seen "Your Brain on Porn" and porn isn't an issue in my marriage because if by some miracle my H uses porn (overcoming his very strict religious upbringing), he's amazingly discrete about it (I've never seen any, I've never "caught" him) so - these comments are gleaned from an outsider perspective.
> 
> I might suggest it could be an impulse control disorder.
> 
> 
> 
> If you do something repeatedly despite the potential or real harm to yourself and others, its a problem. Are all people who enjoy more porn than their spouse agrees with "addicts", well, no. Not by any means. And yes, in most cases the issue is the couple in question needing to agree on boundaries - and in many cases, no the porn itself isn't the issue - but behavior and feelings that need to be worked out, potentially with professional third-party arbitration (AKA marriage counseling.)
> 
> But what about the following scenarios in which case we substitute "porn use" for obsessive gambling scenarios, :
> 
> - You are living hand-to-mouth because of how much you are spending on porn
> - You are constantly risking getting (or actually have been) fired from work by accessing porn at inappropriate times
> - You are tired during the day, and it is affecting your performance at work because you stay up at all hours of the night looking at porn, yet can't stop.
> - You pass up on social situations and often arrange your schedule so you can make sure to have enough porn time
> - You are distracted during what should be enjoyable activities (outings with the kids, dates with the wife, golf) because you are agitated and can't get back to the porn
> - You resent others (including your spouse or family) from infringing on your porn use time, and might become violent, angry, or belligerent as a result
> - If there was a prolonged power outage (or a natural disaster) would your primary concern be safety or shelter for yourself and loved ones or - what am I going to do about my porn?
> 
> Whether or not that's an addiction, an impulse control problem, or whatever you want to label it - the situations above have gone above and beyond a martial issue with sex. It's beginning to negatively impact your day to day life and its beginning to affect other people (particularly if its making you violent.)
> It's a problem that needs to be addressed with intervention, potentially of the professional kind. And while yes, very much so there might be deeper underlying causes to what's fueling the issue, those other problems may or may not in and of themselves have a clinical diagnosis.
> 
> So - I'm not going to debate if labeling it as an addition let's people "get off easy" (which the irony of that statement in relation to porn isn't lost on me, btw :rofl. But - if its a recognized disorder, it might mean some people with a legitimate problem that needs professional intervention might be able to better access that help because insurance will cover it and if its something that primary care doctors are more on the look out for.
> 
> And yes - the above is an extreme example. But - the examples that end up with you getting a clinical diagnosis are the extreme examples. Wanting a clean kitchen doesn't label you with OCD. Staying up for three days straight clean or not eating because you are scared to make the kitchen dirty does. Likewise, using porn doesn't make you an addict or give you a "porn impulse issue" - but when you start replacing meaningful interactions with other people, when it starts to make you violent, or it starts to affect your employ-ability - it's an issue.
> Regardless of whether or not its chemically affecting your brain.


Your balanced and mature post is out of place on a TAM porn discussion. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Very good post.


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## Wiserforit

Katia1010 said:


> Would you call viewing porn morning, noon and night everyday an addiction? My husband views it when he wakes up for about a half an hour, views it at work on his phone (I can tell by the data he uses) for about a half hour and then in the evenings when I am doing the dishes in another room or walking the dog - that's about another hour. This is usually everyday. He sneaks it and quickly clicks off when I enter the room. He has an e-mail address where he posts his links to Tumblr and other porn sites for easy access. I am sure his bookmarks are stored waaay down deep inside his computer. Would that be an addiction? He is hurting me. I find it disrespectful to me as his wife.


Average television use is almost five hours a day. Is that an addiction? 

A lot of spouses feel they are neglected by television too, and that it is disrespectful to them. 

Porn use can be a problem in marriage. So can television use. Or any number of things. "Addiction" gains currency with porn use but not television use for non-scientific reasons.


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## sparkyjim

johnnycomelately said:


> Your husband has behavioural issues and may have some sort of compulsive disorder, of which his excessive porn use is a symptom. He needs help, but labelling him a 'porn addict' will mean that the help will be focussed on his porn use, not the real issue.


Actually the latest science on dealing with porn is addressing the behavioral side of it. 

I'm not sure where you got the idea that labeling someone a porn addict means that the focus will not be on the real issue.

In general I find that your overall critique of yourbrainonporn.com is excluding the other studies, research, and anecdotal evidences that agree with yourbrainonporn.


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## johnnycomelately

sparkyjim said:


> Actually the latest science on dealing with porn is addressing the behavioral side of it.
> 
> I'm not sure where you got the idea that labeling someone a porn addict means that the focus will not be on the real issue.


Because the treatment for addiction is usually a 12-step type programme and very lucrative group therapy sessions, all aimed and getting the person off the 'substance' and ignoring the emotional, behavioural or relationship issues.



sparkyjim said:


> In general I find that your overall critique of yourbrainonporn.com is excluding the other studies, research, and anecdotal evidences that agree with yourbrainonporn.


Bring them on. Let's try and keep it to peer-reviewed statistical studies rather than Dr Oz and Marnia Robinson.


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## sparkyjim

Yes there are some groups that focus on the twelve step principles, but the newest and most successful groups are focusing on peer support and behavioral change.

I would bring it on, but you will just hand pick what ever it is that fits your agenda. You know that there are studies on both sides of the fence and so you would just refute my evidence with your evidence.

By the way, your continued focus on your idea that this is some sort of "lucrative" practice is in error, and that belief is poisoning your opinion. But of course the porn industry has no interest in money, do they?


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## johnnycomelately

sparkyjim said:


> I would bring it on, but you will just hand pick what ever it is that fits your agenda. You know that there are studies on both sides of the fence and so you would just refute my evidence with your evidence.


Nothing huh?


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## Starstarfish

Just to relate to my previous post above, and to, relate it to a peer-reviewed study, I offer the following for pondering, not to backup my thesis, but as a point of discussion:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10720162.2013.768126#

Now, the base theory of this article anticipates that "porn addiction" isn't an impulse control issue, but rather a subset of hyper-sexuality disorder, ie - a disorder related to nymphomania. And here's the criteria by which they make that diagnosis:

(Click link above and click on: TABLE 1 Proposed Diagnostic Criteria for Hypersexual Disorder)

Personally, from a 100% non-professional opinion, I'd imagine that such a problem could stem from any one of a multitude of underlying issues similiar to say - anorexia. Anorexia syndrome labels the manifestation of the disease, its symptoms, and how it presents itself. However- it is still recognizes that the underlying issue that is causing the disorder could stem from any number of biological or environmental factors. And thus the drive to not only deal with the symptoms (the manifestations of the syndrome) but also the root cause. 

As such, I can agree that some mindsets (like the study I cite) are off-queue when addressing the "porn addiction" issue. If they presume that the cause is always sexual in nature, they are ignoring other factors that might be in play. Like a biological issue (seratonin issue?) or an environmental one (that it's become someone's stress release and they need a wider knowledge of coping techniques.)

So, at base, as noted in my other post, I don't disagree with the idea that within certain criteria this is a syndrome that might need labeling for treatment purposes, but - I do agree that it needs to be properly handled. That the social stigma and discomfort with the topic shouldn't influence the treatment of the problem, as - that's a bit too akin to how all female sexual problems were lumped into "hysteria" without careful consideration.

Edit: Didn't realize my links were user specific, fixed now!


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## Real Science

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, folks, but Gary Wilson is a fraud. He was just confronted by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation for a lack of credentials. He and his wife tried to sue to shut them up:
The ethics of interviews

they also regularly remove dissenters from their many blogs:
O Mangue: Marnia Robinson, Gary Wilson and The Good Men Project Magazine

If this isn't enough to make it obvious, ask any neuroscientist about his claims. He gets basic brain anatomy incorrect and cannot possibly have read most of the articles he mentions (they are behind a pay wall he cannot access as a non-academic). He is lying to everyone to glorify himself.

I am not claiming people don't have real problem sexual behaviors, but it is pretty easy to say Gary Wilson and his video are making the problems worse with intentional misinformation.


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