# 7yo DD sassy, disrespectful mouth



## MsStacy

My 7 (almost 8) yo daughter is about to send me through the roof with her sassy, disrespectful attitude and behavior lately. She can be loving, kind and thoughtful, and I'd like to see more of that. I feel like I am constantly on her. I have tried praising the good instead of constantly harping on the bad but there is no measurable improvement.

I can deal with the occasional screaming "I hate you" as she storms into time out. That tells me I'm doing something right. I can't describe the sassy-ness, it is constant!! To the point where a pastor at church overheard her talking back to me and called her out on it. I was afraid to talk to my mother the way she speaks, I would've been knocked to the moon. I can't seem to find her currency that really drives home my point.

She is coming into the 'tween stage and I know if I don't get control of this now it is going to be a true nightmare very soon. I am literally on the verge of taking everything...toys, electronics, even her bedroom door off the hinge. She has lost some pretty major outings lately and it worked for a day or two. 

Anyone have any helpful hints? Success stories? Will talking everything away finally get through to her?


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## Anon Pink

First, check the way you talk to her and the way she hears other adults talking to each other. Patterns of speech are learned. 

Second, take the list of things she does that you call her out on, and take only the tops 3-4! Let everything else GO!

When she replies with a snarky tone, kindly ask her to take a breath and say it again but to speak politely.

Say:
"I don't like it when you talk to me like that. It makes me feel like you think I'm stupid and I'm not."

Give her the opportunity to express frustration because she can't watch TV, but also the ability to express it in acceptable ways. "I really want to watch TV right now."


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## Coach8

Back talk is a big no no in our house. That earns a no warning swat. If they back talk or roll eyes, it is automatic. Had to give a bunch the first couple of days. Since then, hardly ever. Letting them say I hate you, that is telling her its ok to disrespect you. Did you talk to your mother that way? Why not? It's ok to instill some fear as a parent.


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## familyfirst09

I've got a 6 1/2 year old DD going thru the same thing. Are you divorced? Single? Somethings family changes can add to this, it certainly did in my sitch. 
But things have quite improved. 1. Stick to a routine as much as possible. 2. Say what you mean and mean what you say. 3. No warnings. 4. Focus on rewards and praise for good behaviour. 5. Involve the school/teachers. 

I can go into more detail if you like but I'm heading to bed soon 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## diwali123

" I am literally on the verge of taking everything...toys, electronics, even her bedroom door off the hinge."

Do it. My daughter has been sassy since she could talk. She's always having issues with it, it gets worse at times. 
You aren't alone. This generation is different, somehow they just think that they are in charge and you have to let them know without a doubt that they aren't. 

I have taken everything out of my daughter's room and then made a calendar and told her that she only gets one toy back a day if she gets a star. To get a star she can't break the top three rules. 

Also have you tried 123 magic? 

What she like to do? Have you tried taking away computer time, TV time. It sounds mean but the big thing for my daughter is bedtime. If I even threaten her with having to put herself to bed she gets in line right away.


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## Anon Pink

diwali123 said:


> " I am literally on the verge of taking everything...toys, electronics, even her bedroom door off the hinge."
> 
> Do it. My daughter has been sassy since she could talk. She's always having issues with it, it gets worse at times.
> You aren't alone. This generation is different, somehow they just think that they are in charge and you have to let them know without a doubt that they aren't.
> 
> I have taken everything out of my daughter's room and then made a calendar and told her that she only gets one toy back a day if she gets a star. To get a star she can't break the top three rules.
> 
> Also have you tried 123 magic?
> 
> What she like to do? Have you tried taking away computer time, TV time. It sounds mean but the big thing for my daughter is bedtime. If I even threaten her with having to put herself to bed she gets in line right away.


I've seen your other threads, your daughter has a lot on her plate. This really touched me how when you threaten her with being alone for bed time, she pulls herself together. She very obviously needs that cuddle time with you right now.


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## Sbrown

MsStacy said:


> I was afraid to talk to my mother the way she speaks, I would've been knocked to the moon.


Your mother obviously demanded respect and it sounds like she dealt out swift punishments for disrespect. What did she do that you're not? I was told once that as a parent I should correct mistakes and punish rebellion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## diwali123

Anon Pink said:


> I've seen your other threads, your daughter has a lot on her plate. This really touched me how when you threaten her with being alone for bed time, she pulls herself together. She very obviously needs that cuddle time with you right now.


She's always been like that. And honestly I think she just likes putting off going to sleep.


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## turnera

MsStacy said:


> My 7 (almost 8) yo daughter
> 
> She is coming into the 'tween stage


Excuse me? She is nowhere NEAR the tween stage. She needs a mother NOW. 

Not a friend. Not someone who is afraid to make her mad.

A mother. Who sets the rules and who doles out the punishment.

It is HER choice whether to follow the rules. But it is YOUR JOB to dole out the punishment. 

Barring a mental issue, her actions are 100% on you.


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## oddball

She is 7 going on 8 and tells you she hates you. Seriously? I have three daughters, 6 10 and 12. Not one of them would dare say they hate me. Maybe in a couple of years. We dont hit our children, but for disrespectful behaviour there are consequences. Im with Turnera on this. You need to be prepared to take action. She is way out of line. And that is your job as a parent.


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## turnera

Read up on authoritarian parenting, the preferred way to raise kids. It will help you understand how to handle things like this. It's how I raised my daughter (though I didn't know what it was at the time), and she's the most level-headed, happy of all her friends. And the only one who made it all the way through college. The rest of them either got pregnant early or went through all kinds of screw ups just to rebel or get back at their parents.

Authoritarian Parenting - What Is Authoritarian Parenting


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## turnera

Anyway, to answer your question, taking away obviously doesn't work with her, so think more broadly. When my DD23 threatened to skip school once, I chose what would matter most to her: I told her if I ever caught her skipping, I would quit my job, follow her to school, and sit in her classroom (oh the horror!) to make sure she didn't leave. But I also told her I'd allow her one 'sick day' a year, to give her some leeway in case of a really bad day.

In other words, I worked WITH her instead of against her. I gave her reasons to do what I wanted. And if she still chose to disobey me, the punishment fit the crime. If she hit me, I spanked her. If she mouthed off to an adult, I made her go apologize, to feel the shame. If she yelled, I put her in a room with nothing in it for an hour's worth of silence. Immediately, so she equated the punishment with her action. And I did it all with utter calm (which she says scared her more than any angry mom could have), because I am the adult and I have the power, and she knew it.


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## Anon Pink

Taking away doesn't work because it doesn't address the problem and it doesn't TEACH what is expected. When a parent immediately responds to snarkiness by insisting the child restate with civility, they are TEACHING... "That is what I don't like and won't put up with, now do it over until you get it right."

Smacking, hitting, punishing..... Bully behavior to intimidate the child into policing themselves. You can enforce your boundaries and expectations without intimidating your child.

Also.... REWARD! When your sassy pants does speak to you politely, you point it out politely, not with a knife in your hand.

"Thank you Sassy Pants, that's the way I like to be spoken to."

"See you CAN talk to me without being snotty and bratty, *don't know why this is so hard for you."* that's the knife... That's how parents sabotage themselves.


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## unbelievable

I've raised three and have a couple grandchildren, now. My oldest is 34. My youngest grandchild is 6. Not one of them speaks to me disrespectfully although they all have tested my limits at one time or another. Best advise I can give is to not tolerate even slight disrespect, even some of the time. I don't punish disrespect when I get pissed or when I get too much of it. I punish it the second it happens, wherever I am, whoever is there, in whatever form it happens. I don't accept eye-rolling, huffing, back-talk, raised voices, door slamming or anything of the kind. I think consistency is more important than the manner of the consequences. Kids figure out pretty quickly if you are for real, if you mean what you say, and if they can get away with bad behavior in your presence. 
In the same manner, I praise good behavior, even though I expect it. If they display good manners or great self-control, I tell them I'm proud of them. Despite their childish displays, kids crave rules. They need rules. They feel more secure when they know how their world works and what place they occupy in it. 
Kids don't drive, they don't have jobs. Anything they want has to come from a parent or guardian. If we're at Disneyland and they disrespect me, we leave. No questions asked, no warnings, no excuses. We don't leave because I'm mean but because they chose to wear their butt for a hat.


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## anotherguy

Anon Pink said:


> First, check the way you talk to her and the way she hears other adults talking to each other. Patterns of speech are learned.


..also how her friends deal with their parents - and what she watches on TV and what she hears in the music she listens to..

But yes. She needs to see good, productive exampels at home on how to interact with people.

Young kids test out new things - and they go with what works. When the see something that works, or if they have a hard time expressing themselves - they act out and run with it.

If our kids ever acted like that - my wife was always very good at sitting them down and talking with them - drawing it out - its like emotional tooth extraction sometimes to get them to try and articulate what is really happening - but it helps. Once they understand what is acceptiblle and what itsnt - and once you let them verbilize their complaint and they know that you are listening - once they now what the rules are - you need to hold them to it. You have to take control of the situation and address it and guide them into better, more productive ways of expressing outrage.


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## turnera

Excellent point. I hated my mom's talks more than any punishment I ever got. I never wanted to disappoint her. My daughter is the same way.


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## LdyVenus

A mouthful of soap! It works wonders in my house. Gets the point across quickly! ;-)


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## turnera

I STILL remember soap in my mouth when I was 5, 50 years ago!


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## hambone

The critical thing is that you don't want to turn every conflict into a power struggle.

You need to let your child's discipline be a natural consequences of their actions.

For example, kid forgets to return a library book on time. Don't fuss at them... and for God's sake don't take the book back, pay the fine and fuss at them all the way down to the library and back. Let them pay the fine with their own money.

Don't impose artificial penalties. 

When my son was 2 or 3. He was watching me work. I changed a drill bit out and I knew the bit was hot. He tried to touch the bit. I told him it would "bite" him. Code for hurt you. He went to touch it again... I warned him again. Eventually he touched the bit... and got burned. Did I hammer him for not listening... and not MINDING ME!!! as in "I TOLD you this was happen but NOOOOOO you didn't listen!!! He already knows that. What I did was grimace and say, "Ouch.." and I went got him a glass of water with an ice cube in it and had him stick his finger in the cold water.

What did I do? He now knows that daddy is on his side. that when daddy tells him something will "bite" him that daddy isn't lying. His hearing is vastly improved. 

Now, what if I had slapped his hand when he reached out to touch that hot drill bit? And was bound and determined that he was going to mind me! He reaches out again... I slap his hand harder and tell him, 'Don't you try me!!!" I have created a power struggle.

Warn you kid when something is not in their best interest. If they are old enough to understand.. explain your worst fears. Let them make their choices... and let them live with the consequences.. You don't have to pile on. Nor do you pull them out of the ditch telling them how stupid they are... you tried to warn them etc. etc. Tell the kids how to get out of the ditch on their own.....

Again, do NOT get into power struggles... 

When my kids were little and I asked them to not do something and they asked me "why"... If I couldn't think of an answer better than, "I TOLD you so". I dropped it... Told them, 'Oh, go ahead!"

Again, no power struggles.


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## MsStacy

Excellent points and advice everyone, thank you. I appreciate the kick in the rear also. The last 2 1/2 years have been traumatic with too many upheavals to count. Taking a hard look at my own attitude does show me a lot. I have let my frustrations with my husband, our marriage, things he has done to hurt and disrupt our family, and some other events...I have not hidden my frustration and emotions from DD as well as I thought I was. In trying to shield her through everything I've been allowing her behavior to slide. 

Thanks again. She has lost all electronics & tv for the week. I am better aware (and hope to keep it this way) of my behavior, my husband's, and how we are interacting around her. One of my big mistakes is that I warn her way too many times before enforcement. I've tightened up on that the last couple days also. There is some definite improvement. 

Plus...I totally forgot about the soap!!!! I also remember my mother doing that. I was 10. 30 years later and I can still taste that memory. I bought a a bar of soap and wrote on it in sharpie..."sassy tongue cleaner" and set it by my daughter's bathroom sink. She absolutely does not like seeing it there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Coach8

Keep in mind, while I think the soap is very effective (I can still taste it too, LOL), that some courts have actually considered that child abuse (ridiculous but true).


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## diwali123

Coach8 said:


> Keep in mind, while I think the soap is very effective (I can still taste it too, LOL), that some courts have actually considered that child abuse (ridiculous but true).


I don't think it's ridiculous. You are putting something toxic in your child's mouth.


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## Sbrown

diwali123 said:


> I don't think it's ridiculous. You are putting something toxic in your child's mouth.


So you put "toxic" substances on your skin? You clean your dishes and clothes with "toxic" substances? Smh....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## diwali123

Sbrown said:


> So you put "toxic" substances on your skin? You clean your dishes and clothes with "toxic" substances? Smh....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I also color my hair but I'm not going to put the dye in my mouth.


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## turnera

I can't imagine a child ever dying from soap in the mouth. Having to EAT it, maybe...


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## diwali123

turnera said:


> I can't imagine a child ever dying from soap in the mouth. Having to EAT it, maybe...


I'm not going to judge other parents for that but I just think it's abusive. I also don't hit. 
Is that really your definition of abuse? As long as it doesn't kill the child it's ok?


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## turnera

My definition of abuse is nowhere NEAR making a child put a bar of soap in his mouth.


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## diwali123

turnera said:


> My definition of abuse is nowhere NEAR making a child put a bar of soap in his mouth.


I don't know what that means, like soap is nothing or too much?


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## turnera

You tell a child not to backtalk you. They do. You hand them a bar of soap and say 'wash out those mean words. We don't talk like that in our family.' They put the bar of soap in their mouth and it tastes like crap. They remember it and think twice before sassing back again.

You think that's abusive?


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## diwali123

turnera said:


> You tell a child not to backtalk you. They do. You hand them a bar of soap and say 'wash out those mean words. We don't talk like that in our family.' They put the bar of soap in their mouth and it tastes like crap. They remember it and think twice before sassing back again.
> 
> You think that's abusive?


Seriously? How old is this child that they go put soap in their mouth?


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## hambone

turnera said:


> You tell a child not to backtalk you. They do. You hand them a bar of soap and say 'wash out those mean words. We don't talk like that in our family.' They put the bar of soap in their mouth and it tastes like crap. They remember it and think twice before sassing back again.
> 
> You think that's abusive?


I think washing out a child's mouth with soap is creating a power struggle..

And that's bad....

It becomes your will against the child's will... and eventually you will lose the power struggle.


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## LdyVenus

For me there was no struggle, I had a five year old who thought swearing was funny. He got the soap once, hasn't dropped the F bomb since.


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## Anon Pink

It also defeats the purpose. You want your child to learn to express themselves so you do things that teach them to shut up? Having them say it over again does teach. It teaches them to express themselves, it teaches them you will listen to them, it teaches them make themselves heard and it teaches them the boundaries of civil discourse.

Just cause you mother did it doesn't make it right!


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## Sbrown

hambone said:


> I think washing out a child's mouth with soap is creating a power struggle..
> 
> And that's bad....
> 
> It becomes your will against the child's will... and eventually you will lose the power struggle.


Any and ALL discipline is a power struggle. And if the parent loses, the child loses more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sbrown

Anon Pink said:


> It also defeats the purpose. You want your child to learn to express themselves so you do things that teach them to shut up? Having them say it over again does teach. It teaches them to express themselves, it teaches them you will listen to them, it teaches them make themselves heard and it teaches them the boundaries of civil discourse.
> 
> Just cause you mother did it doesn't make it right!


They also need to learn there are consequences to their actions. To say that punishing a child teaches them to "shut up" is a pretty big leap. It seems you guys assume that the soap or other punishment is the end of the story. As with all teachable moments there should be consequences for bad behavior and corrections shown or taught.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## familyfirst09

MsStacy said:


> Excellent points and advice everyone, thank you. I appreciate the kick in the rear also. The last 2 1/2 years have been traumatic with too many upheavals to count. Taking a hard look at my own attitude does show me a lot. I have let my frustrations with my husband, our marriage, things he has done to hurt and disrupt our family, and some other events...I have not hidden my frustration and emotions from DD as well as I thought I was. In trying to shield her through everything I've been allowing her behavior to slide.
> 
> Thanks again. She has lost all electronics & tv for the week. I am better aware (and hope to keep it this way) of my behavior, my husband's, and how we are interacting around her. One of my big mistakes is that I warn her way too many times before enforcement. I've tightened up on that the last couple days also. There is some definite improvement.
> 
> Plus...I totally forgot about the soap!!!! I also remember my mother doing that. I was 10. 30 years later and I can still taste that memory. I bought a a bar of soap and wrote on it in sharpie..."sassy tongue cleaner" and set it by my daughter's bathroom sink. She absolutely does not like seeing it there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A week is way to long for a 6-7 year old. Punishments have to be immediate, after a day they don't even understand why they are being punished. And you shouldn't take away everything, you need leverage for things that require harsher punishment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Coach8

That's why for me, swats work the best. It's an immediate and temporarily painful reminder. I think every child is different and swats may not work for everyone. I am glad they still give swats at our school district (elementary and MS). My son got sent to office and the principal just showed him the paddle she uses and he straightened up real quick.


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## diwali123

Coach8 said:


> That's why for me, swats work the best. It's an immediate and temporarily painful reminder. I think every child is different and swats may not work for everyone. I am glad they still give swats at our school district (elementary and MS). My son got sent to office and the principal just showed him the paddle she uses and he straightened up real quick.


What country do you live in???


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## Coach8

I live in US


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## Coach8

Public schools are still allowed to give swats, as long as parents give permission. About 60% of the districts still give swats in our state.


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## Anon Pink

Sbrown said:


> They also need to learn there are consequences to their actions. To say that punishing a child teaches them to "shut up" is a pretty big leap. It seems you guys assume that the soap or other punishment is the end of the story. As with all teachable moments there should be consequences for bad behavior and corrections shown or taught.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But I didn't say that. Soap in mouth teaches a child to keep their mouth shut. It doesn't teach the child HOW to express anger and feeling unjustly treated. To a child, any punishment is unjust, really. So the punishment has to first and foremost TEACH what is expected, and secondly prohibit that which is not permitted. Soap in mouth doesn't teach a child to express themselves, but it does teach a child not to risk soap again by keeping their mouth shut.

Do you see the difference?


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## LdyVenus

I think that's taking it too far. In OP's case the soap will be the punishment. The discussion that comes afterwards will explain to the child that although she may be angry, she can express her feelings without being disrespectful.


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## Sbrown

Anon Pink said:


> But I didn't say that. Soap in mouth teaches a child to keep their mouth shut. It doesn't teach the child HOW to express anger and feeling unjustly treated. To a child, any punishment is unjust, really. So the punishment has to first and foremost TEACH what is expected, and secondly prohibit that which is not permitted. Soap in mouth doesn't teach a child to express themselves, but it does teach a child not to risk soap again by keeping their mouth shut.
> 
> Do you see the difference?


I disagree. Soap in the mouth doesn't teach them to "keep their mouth shut" it teaches them if they are disrespectful with that mouth there will be consequences. What would you recommend?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Soap in the mouth *when they do nothing wrong* might teach them to "keep their mouth shut" - but we're discussing them knowingly doing wrong - and getting a direct consequence.


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## MsStacy

DD will be 8 in a few weeks. I should have been more clear, taking away electronics for the week is the school week, 5 days. I don't believe that is too long. Each kid is different. I'm finding that my D tends to get more sassy after tv time. I have had pneumonia twice since August and I definitely relied on tv too much. This last week has been nice, she got her homework for the week done early, she's been more interested in her martial arts class (asking to go to extra classes) and has been voluntarily reading to her 2 year old sister. I think that going to weekend tv time only will work well for her. Or I'm thinking of starting a reward system where she can earn a special 30 minutes one time during the week. 

As far as the soap goes...I have most definitely communicated proper ways of expressing her emotions. I'm finding that I went too far in the talking & explaining department and not enough in the consequences. I have always asked her to rephrase and think of a kinder way to say what she just back talked or argued. Simply having the soap there has been a deterrent, a reminder, and has worked well. Hopefully we won't have to use it. Each parent chooses what works for their family and their child. That is one of the glorious things about a board like this and asking others what works for them. I am very conscious of what I put in my daughters body's and, personally, I don't feel a swipe on the tongue will be damaging. Of course the punishment is in conjunction with teaching. 

Overall, we have definite results and improvement. It's up to me to stay on top, not let her slide, and me mindful of the example I am setting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## karole

LdyVenus said:


> For me there was no struggle, I had a five year old who thought swearing was funny. He got the soap once, hasn't dropped the F bomb since.


Someone obviously should be watching their language around the 5 year old.


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## LdyVenus

karole said:


> Someone obviously should be watching their language around the 5 year old.


lol! The swearing incident happened to coincide with the beginning of school. But since I'm not going to pretend I'm perfect just because this is a message board, I'm sure he's heard me say it a time or two.


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## Lyris

And did you wash your mouth out with soap?


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## familyfirst09

Ugh, soap in the mouth?? Really?? We don't live in the 60s any more. You are putting chemicals in a child's mouth, that is so dangerous. 

And where in the heck in the US do you live??? Paddles in the school?? That's ridiculous. Honestly, if people believe in swatting their kids, fine, but to let someone else do it as well? That's cruel. And what happens when they get bigger and the swats don't hurt as much, do you hit them harder???

If you are having trouble discipling your child, why not ask for help? There's lots of free programs out there, I'm in one myself. 

Maybe 5 days isnt too long for an 8 year old, I don't know but I was told by my therapist it is for a 6 year old. Does your child understand empathy? Ask her how she would feel if you talked to her like that. Maybe that would help. 

Just please don't use soap.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Coach8

I live in Oklahoma. The swats are only a last resort in the school (and parent is notified and has the option of having a different punishment or coming up to give swats themselves). Like I said, my son didn't even get one at school, just got shown the paddle and that was enough. BTW, when I have to give them a swat at home, I never use anything but an open palm on a clothed butt. Just hard enough to make them think next time. Not hard enough to leave marks or using belts etc.


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## Coach8

They do make non toxic soap specifically for that purpose. I think its called potty mouth soap or something, FWIW.


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## LdyVenus

Lyris said:


> And did you wash your mouth out with soap?


No, I also don't share my margaritas.

Sorry for the thread jack OP.


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## EleGirl

Lyris said:


> Pretty sure she means a voluntary parent information program. Why shouldn't she share things she's learned?
> 
> I'm sure washing a child's mouth out with soap works fantastically well to stop them swearing. As long as, you know, you're standing next to them with soap at the ready 100% of the time.
> 
> And schools in the US hit kids do they? Well that explains a lot.


Schools in Europe, the USA and everywhere else used to paddle school children as a last resort of punishment. That was during a time when children were respectful to their elders and violent crime rate was very low.

Today few if any schools in the USA paddle children. I doubt that any do in Europe either. 

It is however interesting that as the punishment of bad behavior has lost vogue, the level of respect children have for their elders has gone down and the level of violent crime has gone up.

I grew up in the 50's & 60's. Although I have heard that schools used paddling for punishment.. I actually hear of anyone being paddled in a school in real life. It was apparently used only on rare occasions if at all.


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## diwali123

familyfirst09 said:


> Excuse me? I am in a "program" because I want my daughter to grow up with a healthy attitude and not think that if someone does something she doesn't agree with, it is okay for her to "give them a swat". I am getting help because I don't have her father to rely on to help. I'm not in a program because I don't know how to discipline my child. I do and it doesn't involve chemicals or paddles.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good for you FF. I think more parents should be open to learning more about how to parent! My h and I went to family therapy and we learned so much. No one knows it all. Those who think they do are the ones who scare me. 
I don't think negative sensory input like hitting or putting a kid in a cold shower or putting something gross on their tongue is appropriate. 
I don't think it fosters a good relationship or respect for the parent, it just fosters fear. 

Especially for kids who already have sensory integration problems, it could really make them take some steps back wards.


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## familyfirst09

They don't use any type of corporal punishment like that in Canada (that I'm aware of). But I do agree, respect has gone waaaaaay down and that does fall to the parents. But its not just the fact that these types of methods of punishment are now banished, I'm sure it has to do with a lot of different factors, such as the divorce rate, economic down turn and younger children having children.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## diwali123

familyfirst09 said:


> They don't use any type of corporal punishment like that in Canada (that I'm aware of). But I do agree, respect has gone waaaaaay down and that does fall to the parents. But its not just the fact that these types of methods of punishment are now banished, I'm sure it has to do with a lot of different factors, such as the divorce rate, economic down turn and younger children having children.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have talked to many people in education and mental health who are amazed by the strong will of this generation, from birth. There truly seems to be something inherently different about them. 
In many of them there is independence and leadership and wisdom way beyond their years. They are sometimes like little adults in kid bodies. 
The things my daughter comes up with and thinks about at her age, I can't imagine me or my friends contemplating those things or thinking about the future like that.
And with that comes a struggle we have to deal with. I feel like I have to find ways to let her be herself while maintaining my power as the parent. 
She actually told me "I feel like you're in charge all the time." I said "I am." And she said "I don't know if I'm comfortable with that." She's eight! 
I told her I don't care and tried not to laugh.


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## familyfirst09

Kids are different because the world is different! Frig, how many times have you heard "when I was a kid I walked 10 miles to school" or "there was real gravel underneath the monkey bars!" Lol. We just simply make things too easy now a days. I still will never hit my child in any way and I will never put chemicals in her mouth. 

I've been told many times that D is "an old soul". Kids are exposed to so much more now. They grow up way too quick.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl

familyfirst09 said:


> They don't use any type of corporal punishment like that in Canada (that I'm aware of). But I do agree, respect has gone waaaaaay down and that does fall to the parents. But its not just the fact that these types of methods of punishment are now banished, I'm sure it has to do with a lot of different factors, such as the divorce rate, economic down turn and younger children having children.


I disagree that this falls on the parents. AT least no completely on the parents.

Our schools do not teach children to respect anyone. Instead they teach our children that they have rights that no one can infringe on.

Children are taught that they can call child protective services and turn their parents in. Then the parents have to defend themselves from these accusations. Just about all children know this now. Parents have little to no legal right to maintain rules in their household.

Once a kid hits the teen years the parents cannot prevent a teen from leaving the home at any time they wish. If you do, it’s called false imprisonment. But keep in mind that while the laws now give teens the right to do as they please, parents are held responsible.


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## hambone

Sbrown said:


> Any and ALL discipline is a power struggle. And if the parent loses, the child loses more.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not necessarily


If you are yelling at your child, whipping your child, grounding your child, taking away their cell phone etc. etc.

Yeah, you are turning everything into a power struggle.. Why? Because you are trying to impose your will on the child. That sits up a power struggle between your will and the child's will. And you will eventually lose.

Much better if you simply allow the child to suffer the consequences of their choices. 

If you tell your child, like I did my son, to not touch something hot... and he goes to touch it... if I slap his hand or yell, "NO" at him... I'm turning it into a power struggle. 

Instead, I let him it's not... don't touch it... several times.. he choose to touch it and burned his finger. Next time I told him not to touch something.. his hearing was a lot better. 

Letting him touch the hot item taught him that daddy doesn't lie. And, that daddy was trying to protect him from getting hurt...
He knows that "m on his side.


Doing it this way draws you closer. Creating power struggles drives just causes long term problems. "My child won't listen"... "My child won't obey"... "My child defies me" etc.


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## diwali123

EleGirl said:


> I disagree that this falls on the parents. AT least no completely on the parents.
> 
> Our schools do not teach children to respect anyone. Instead they teach our children that they have rights that no one can infringe on.
> 
> Children are taught that they can call child protective services and turn their parents in. Then the parents have to defend themselves from these accusations. Just about all children know this now. Parents have little to no legal right to maintain rules in their household.
> 
> Once a kid hits the teen years the parents cannot prevent a teen from leaving the home at any time they wish. If you do, it’s called false imprisonment. But keep in mind that while the laws now give teens the right to do as they please, parents are held responsible.


I don't know about that. My daughter has gone to two elementary schools who had a character development curriculum that included tracing respect, integrity, etc. I see that my daughter has learned a lot from that. 
At the same time, the teachers are so afraid of a law suit or complaint from parents that they don't know how to manage their classrooms. Last year I kept getting emails from her teacher every time she did something wrong and I thought "I'm not there, you are, isn't that your job?" 
I talked to teacher friends who told me a lit of teachers are so scared to take action that they just don't.
Thankfully she has a teacher this year who is older and commands more respect so her behavior is much better!


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## Disenchanted

I think some of the parenting advice on this board is just ridiculous. Completely backwards.

Positive reinforcement is always much more effective then punishment, in every circumstance.

Jesus the science was in on this before probably most of the posters in this thread were born.

My kids scold me for using swear words and would never dream of using one themselves. 9 and 11.

Reward systems are far more effective then negative reinforcement.

My STBXWW had a bit less control then I did with language and one day my daughter threw a ball at me and it went in the wrong directin so she said "FVCK!".

I contained my natural reaction (which was laughter), sat her down and explained that is was not an appropriate word. I used it in context as it is usually used and asked her where she'd heard it (she did use it quite correctly). She said "I heard Mom say it".

I said "well Mom makes mistakes but it is not polite for her to use that word either". So she asks if she can go tell Mom, I said sure!

So she marches up to my (at the time) wife and hollers "Mom don't say FVCK anymore".

STBXWW was on the phone with an older lady at the time, it was awesome. She was mortified.

Paddling, yelling, spanking, are all symptoms of a _parent_ who has lost control.

/end rant


----------



## EleGirl

diwali123 said:


> I don't know about that. My daughter has gone to two elementary schools who had a character development curriculum that included tracing respect, integrity, etc. I see that my daughter has learned a lot from that.
> At the same time, the teachers are so afraid of a law suit or complaint from parents that they don't know how to manage their classrooms. Last year I kept getting emails from her teacher every time she did something wrong and I thought "I'm not there, you are, isn't that your job?"
> I talked to teacher friends who told me a lit of teachers are so scared to take action that they just don't.
> Thankfully she has a teacher this year who is older and commands more respect so her behavior is much better!


The school has a class on respect. Yet the teachers are afraid of the children and their parents. Which lesson do you think the children in the school are more likely to pay attention to? Book leaning only goes so far. Children learn the most from the actions of the adults around them. This is exactly what I was talking about.


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## Coach8

EleGirl said:


> Schools in Europe, the USA and everywhere else used to paddle school children as a last resort of punishment. That was during a time when children were respectful to their elders and violent crime rate was very low.
> 
> Today few if any schools in the USA paddle children. I doubt that any do in Europe either.
> 
> It is however interesting that as the punishment of bad behavior has lost vogue, the level of respect children have for their elders has gone down and the level of violent crime has gone up.
> 
> I grew up in the 50's & 60's. Although I have heard that schools used paddling for punishment.. I actually hear of anyone being paddled in a school in real life. It was apparently used only on rare occasions if at all.


Actually, 19 states in the US stll allow schools to paddle. I saw a stat that 14,000 kids in our state were paddled in school last year. 222,517 students nationwide were paddled in 2006-2007 school year. It is still used as a last resort. Doesn't anyone think that maybe why earlier generations were more respectful was because they knew they would get their butt busted if they got out of line. Once my kids get older, spanking won't be as effective as other methods. But, I think it is a viable and effective punishment at the elementary level.


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## Disenchanted

Coach8 said:


> Actually, 19 states in the US stll allow schools to paddle. I saw a stat that 14,000 kids in our state were paddled in school last year. 222,517 students nationwide were paddled in 2006-2007 school year. It is still used as a last resort. Doesn't anyone think that maybe why earlier generations were more respectful was because they knew they would get their butt busted if they got out of line. Once my kids get older, spanking won't be as effective as other methods. But, I think it is a viable and effective punishment at the elementary level.


19 states have inbreeding too.


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## Coach8

Disenchanted said:


> 19 states have inbreeding too.


Come now, I contribute a thought out post backed with statistics, and you come back with a ridiculous insult. I usually enjoy reading your posts, I expected more out of you than that, disenchanted. Out of curiousity, what state do you live in?


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## Anon Pink

Disenchanted said:


> 19 states have inbreeding too.


:rofl:

Meet my uncle daddy!


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## Disenchanted

Coach8 said:


> I expected more out of you than that, disenchanted. Out of curiousity, what state do you live in?


You haven't heard me talk much about parenting because the parenting advice and opinions on this board are absolutely ridiculous.

I live in Washington state.

A large % of the folks here think it's a good idea to tell a 9 year old that their mother is a cheating wh0re. Laughable.

Corporal punishment does still exist in some very backward thinking places. It has been clearly proven to be an ineffective method for raising balanced productive self respecting human beings.

It is a tool of the weak minded, sorry.


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## Coach8

I agree with you about telling a 9 yr old, etc. is ridiculous. And I certainly have no problem with those who choose not to spank (as long as they keep their kids under control). I don't have to spank. I choose to in certain circumstances, because I feel it is the punishment that best fits that rule infraction. I also never spank out of anger. A lot of people don't agree with that and that is fine. But to equate spanking with lack of intelligence or weakness is unfair, in my opinion.


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## Coach8

BTW, states that still spank in school:
AL, AR, AZ, CO, FL, GA, ID, IN, KS, KY, LA, MS, MO, NC, OK, SC, TN, TX, WY


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## Disenchanted

Coach8 said:


> BTW, states that still spank in school:
> AL, AR, AZ, CO, FL, GA, ID, IN, KS, KY, LA, MS, MO, NC, OK, SC, TN, TX, WY


Interesting how that correlates to this list:

States ranked by IQ

1. MASSACHUSETTS..................................... ...104.3

2. NEW HAMPSHIRE......................................... .104.2

3. NORTH DAKOTA............................................ 103.8

4. VERMONT........................................... .........103.8

5. MINNESOTA......................................... ........103.7

6. MONTANA........................................... .........103.4

7. MAINE............................................. ............103.4

8. IOWA.............................................. ............103.2

9. CONNECTICUT....................................... ........103.1

10. WISCONSIN......................................... ........102.9

11. KANSAS............................................ ..........102.8

12. SOUTH DAKOTA............................................ 102.8

13. NEW JERSEY............................................ ....102.8

14. WYOMING........................................... .........102.4

15. NEBRASKA.......................................... ..........102.3

16. WASHINGTON........................................ ........101.9

17. VIRGINIA.......................................... ............101.9

18. OHIO.............................................. .............101.8

19. INDIANA........................................... ............101.7

20. COLORADO.......................................... ..........101.6

21. PENNSYLVANIA...................................... ........101.5

22. IDAHO............................................. .............101.4

23. OREGON............................................ ...........101.2

24. UTAH.............................................. .............101.1

25. MISSOURI.......................................... ............101.0

26. NEW YORK.............................................. .......100.7

27. MICHIGAN.......................................... ............100.5

28. DELAWARE.......................................... ...........100.4

29. NORTH CAROLINA.......................................... ...100.2

30. TEXAS............................................. ..............100.0

31. ILLINOIS.......................................... ................99.9

32. MARYLAND.......................................... .............99.7

33. RHODE ISLAND............................................ ......99.5

34. KENTUCKY.......................................... ..............99.4

35. OKLAHOMA.......................................... .............99.3

36. ALASKA............................................ ................99.0

37. WEST VIRGINIA.......................................... ........98.7

38. SOUTH CAROLINA.......................................... .....98.4

39. FLORIDA........................................... ................98.4

40. GEORGIA........................................... ................98.0

41. TENNESSEE......................................... ..............97.7

42. ARKANSAS.......................................... ...............97.5

43. ARIZONA........................................... ................97.4

44. NEVADA............................................ ................96.5

45. ALABAMA........................................... ................95.7

46. NEW MEXICO............................................ ..........95.7

47. HAWAII............................................ ..................95.6

48. CALIFORNIA........................................ ................95.5

49. LOUISIANA......................................... .................95.3

50. MISSISSIPPI....................................... .................94.2

Read more: States ranked by IQ - how does YOURS stack up? (public schools, colleges) - City-Data Forum


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## Coach8

Interesting chart. 7 of the states at or above baseline IQ avg. (100), 12 below. Not exactly irrefutable evidence, although it does have statistical merit. I spank my kids on occasion, and have an IQ more than 2 standard deviations above normal. I know people who are below avg. intelligence, that don't spank and vice versa. I don't think non-abusive spanking leads to lack of productivity. I was spanked when needed. I'm glad I was, or I probably would not have stayed out of trouble and gotten good grades as a child. I know there were many times that I wanted to do something and didn't because I didn't want to get spanked.


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## SunnyT

That is an odd post. First of all, ALL of those numbers are average for IQ. Average is 85-115. Also, the difference between a 104 IQ and a 94 IQ is really not much in the grand scheme. Plus, it said those numbers are based on education.... IQ has nothing to do with education. The replies are equally irrational.... they contend that bigger states have more people so the numbers are skewed, or that NYC has more minorities that skew the numbers...again, nothing to do with IQ. 

MAYBE an article on corporal punishment and the IQ correlation would support this argument? Or corporal punishment and political leaning? 

And just a note on a previous post, teachers hands are tied. We cannot do much discipline at all and what little we can do (such as lunch detention) necessitates a phone call home. We cannot remove the child from the class room (for time out), or put them in the corner, or make them write sentences, we are not supposed to even discipline them out loud (because it might hurt their feelings).


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## familyfirst09

Coach8 said:


> I agree with you about telling a 9 yr old, etc. is ridiculous. And I certainly have no problem with those who choose not to spank (as long as they keep their kids under control). I don't have to spank. I choose to in certain circumstances, because I feel it is the punishment that best fits that rule infraction. I also never spank out of anger. A lot of people don't agree with that and that is fine. But to equate spanking with lack of intelligence or weakness is unfair, in my opinion.


I'm sorry I don't agree that you don't spank out of anger. Your kid messes up, you get angry!! Every parent does. Do you wait and calm down and then spank them? And then the kids are like WTF did I do? Because they no longer remember what they did wrong. 

Spanking will always be a debate. Same with abortion, religion and health care. Everyone does not have to agree but we should all be open to other ideas about it. Wouldn't you rather NOT hit your kid???
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## familyfirst09

SunnyT said:


> And just a note on a previous post, teachers hands are tied. We cannot do much discipline at all and what little we can do (such as lunch detention) necessitates a phone call home. We cannot remove the child from the class room (for time out), or put them in the corner, or make them write sentences, we are not supposed to even discipline them out loud (because it might hurt their feelings).


I do not believe a teacher is there to raise a children, but they are certainly there to help. 

So do you agree with this in your state/province?

I have a great routine with my D's teachers, they are super. We have a communication book and we write notes back and forth so the teachers know what is going on at home if appropriate and I know what's going on at school. I've gotten phone calls, both good and bad (one completely ridiculous lol).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## familyfirst09

Coach8 said:


> Interesting chart. 7 of the states at or above baseline IQ avg. (100), 12 below. Not exactly irrefutable evidence, although it does have statistical merit. I spank my kids on occasion, and have an IQ more than 2 standard deviations above normal. I know people who are below avg. intelligence, that don't spank and vice versa. I don't think non-abusive spanking leads to lack of productivity. I was spanked when needed. I'm glad I was, or I probably would not have stayed out of trouble and gotten good grades as a child. I know there were many times that I wanted to do something and didn't because I didn't want to get spanked.


I got spanked, and also hit with it belt. Didn't keep me out of trouble. Doesn't always wwork. As a kid, you just learn how to be more sneaky about it so you didn't get caught lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Coach8

familyfirst09 said:


> I'm sorry I don't agree that you don't spank out of anger. Your kid messes up, you get angry!! Every parent does. Do you wait and calm down and then spank them? And then the kids are like WTF did I do? Because they no longer remember what they did wrong.
> 
> Spanking will always be a debate. Same with abortion, religion and health care. Everyone does not have to agree but we should all be open to other ideas about it. Wouldn't you rather NOT hit your kid???
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree that it will always be a debate, and like I said earlier, I don't have an issue with people who don't spank and can keep their kids under control. So I can certainly see the validity of the viewpoint not to spank. I do wait a short period of time (usually a couple of minutes), before I spank if what they did has made me angry. Sometimes, I'm not angry at all, but what they did gets a swat because they had been warned that a spanking would happen if the behavior continued. I say what I mean and mean what I say, and the kids know that. And on things like outright disrespect, I don't feel bad in the least giving a spanking. I could give another punishment, but I would rather spank because I feel disrespectful behavior is pretty much at the top of the bad behavior food chain and deserves a spanking.


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## Anon Pink

The debate is over. Cling to your antiquated beliefs, but the science has been in for a long while now.

Spanking causes increased aggressive behavior and lower verbal skills.

""Contrary to what everyone believes, being hit by parents is a traumatic experience," Straus said. "We know from lots of research that traumatic stresses affect the brain adversely." Also, the trauma could cause kids to have more stressful responses in difficult situations, and so may not perform as well cognitively.""

Children Who Get Spanked Have Lower IQs | LiveScience

Verbal interaction involved in reasoning, explaining, negotiating and limit setting are not strongly represented within spanking families.

Spanking’s long-term effect on intelligence- NJ Psychologist Blog

Verbal aggression by parents and psychosocial problems of children


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## familyfirst09

Anon Pink said:


> The debate is over. Cling to your antiquated beliefs, but the science has been in for a long while now.
> 
> Spanking causes increased aggressive behavior and lower verbal skills.
> 
> ""Contrary to what everyone believes, being hit by parents is a traumatic experience," Straus said. "We know from lots of research that traumatic stresses affect the brain adversely." Also, the trauma could cause kids to have more stressful responses in difficult situations, and so may not perform as well cognitively.""
> 
> Children Who Get Spanked Have Lower IQs | LiveScience
> 
> Verbal interaction involved in reasoning, explaining, negotiating and limit setting are not strongly represented within spanking families.
> 
> Spanking’s long-term effect on intelligence- NJ Psychologist Blog
> 
> Verbal aggression by parents and psychosocial problems of children


Agreed and thank you so much for sharing. 

I had my first panic attack as an 8 or 9 child out of fear of being hit by my father. I will never say he "abused" me but I was petrfied of the man because he did believe in spankings. To this day, and I am 40 now, still have panic attacks. 

I will never ever ever ever ever believe that spanking is the correct punishment. There are soooooooooo many alternatives now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Coach8

Panic attacks from being spanked? I'm sorry that is the case, but I and everyone I know growing up got spanked, and I don't know of any that had issues from it. Beatings/abuae are another story. But an open hand swat once in a while,mixed with lots of love and positive reinforcement isn't going to send many to therapy. My kids don't fear me, but they do fear being disrespectful to me or my wife. I'm their father, not their BFF.


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## familyfirst09

Every kid handles it differently
Honestly, I adopted my daughter and they made me sign a form to say I would not spank. There's a reason for that. 
Its great that it works for you, really, but if you are not willing to try another form of punishment then you do not know that they still wouldn't fear you or the punishment. You don't know until you try.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lyris

My kids are four and seven and some of the politest and most respectful kids I know. They've never been hit, put in time out or really yelled at.

They are respectful and kind to others because they have been respected and people have been kind to them since they were born. 

You hit or otherwise hurt your child, you damage the relationship between you. Maybe that's okay with you, maybe you're willing to risk that to gain short term compliance. I'm not and I've found other ways that help my children to be considerate and respectful of themselves and others that don't involve hurting them, physically or emotionally.


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## Disenchanted

SunnyT said:


> That is an odd post. First of all, ALL of those numbers are average for IQ. Average is 85-115. Also, the difference between a 104 IQ and a 94 IQ is really not much in the grand scheme. Plus, it said those numbers are based on education.... IQ has nothing to do with education. The replies are equally irrational.... they contend that bigger states have more people so the numbers are skewed, or that NYC has more minorities that skew the numbers...again, nothing to do with IQ.


So I suppose you would say that Arkansas is as intellectually enlightened as Massachusetts, on a whole.


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## diwali123

Ff09, clear out your inbox.


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## familyfirst09

done


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## SunnyT

Disenchanted said:


> So I suppose you would say that Arkansas is as intellectually enlightened as Massachusetts, on a whole.



Well, yes and no. If you are using averages.... a couple high numbers, a couple low numbers and the rest in the middle; doesn't mean anything. Intelligence and enlightenment are two different things. You can be Gifted and not be enlightened for whatever reasons. 

Apples and oranges.


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## Anon Pink

Disenchanted said:


> So I suppose you would say that Arkansas is as intellectually enlightened as Massachusetts, on a whole.


:rofl:

OMG that's twice today!


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## hambone

Why would you chose to have an adversarial relationship with you child.

An adversarial relationship puts you at odds with each other.. makes your child uncooperative. It causes anger and resentment.. It results in disobedience and disrespectfulness. It makes children act out... and do the exact opposite of what you want them to do just to prove their independence. 

What is right, what is in the child's own best interest becomes secondary to the child as they seek to prove their independence...

And at some point, those kids are going to be too big and strong for you to simply make them do what you want them to do...

Is this the way you treat co-workers and friends? If not why not?


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## hambone

Disenchanted said:


> So I suppose you would say that Arkansas is as intellectually enlightened as Massachusetts, on a whole.


I've been to both places and for several reasons, I'd much rather live in Arkansas than Massachusetts.


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## Disenchanted

hambone said:


> I've been to both places and for several reasons, I'd much rather live in Arkansas than Massachusetts.


Hey to each there own, wherever you feel comfortable and in your place!


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## Coach8

I don't spank my co workers or friends, but my children are not my peers. I agree with much of what most of you are saying, but it works for me and my family. Spankings are not constant or anything, but they know the possibility is there, especially for blatant disrespect. I love my kids and they love me. But, there is no mistake as to who is in charge.


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## Coach8

I agree that spankings are not effective or appropriate for older children. Once they are old enough to reason with, discipline will transition.


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## turnera

hambone said:


> Why would you chose to have an adversarial relationship with you child.
> 
> An adversarial relationship puts you at odds with each other.. makes your child uncooperative. It causes anger and resentment.. It results in disobedience and disrespectfulness. It makes children act out... and do the exact opposite of what you want them to do just to prove their independence.
> 
> What is right, what is in the child's own best interest becomes secondary to the child as they seek to prove their independence...
> 
> And at some point, those kids are going to be too big and strong for you to simply make them do what you want them to do...
> 
> Is this the way you treat co-workers and friends? If not why not?


Ridiculous. Psychologically speaking, it is YOUR JOB to be your child's superior. So they learn that they WILL ALWAYS HAVE a superior. Parents who think they are 'harming' their child by being strong and 'adversarial' are going to end up with kids who butt their heads against authority the rest of their lives. After all, life is supposed to be rainbows and unicorns, right?


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## hambone

Coach8 said:


> I don't spank my co workers or friends, but my children are not my peers. I agree with much of what most of you are saying, but it works for me and my family. Spankings are not constant or anything, but they know the possibility is there, especially for blatant disrespect. I love my kids and they love me. But, there is no mistake as to who is in charge.


So, you rule your children through fear. That builds love and respect!

Why would you treat your children with less respect than you do people you aren't related to? 

Spanking does have the advantage of being a whole lot quicker.

DO you whip your kids when they don't mind? Or when they don't listen? When they are disobedient? 

When and how do you plan to transition to talking to and reasoning with your kids? 

Spanking teaches kids that as long as your just talking...you really aren't serious... When you are serious... you get physical...

Like the examples I gave earlier... when you tell you kids not to do something because it will hurt them... and they choose to ignore your warnings and they end up getting hurt... you'll be surprised, after they've busted their butts, how much their hearing improves. 

I have a real problem with people who spank their kids or their pets. It's not necessary. In fact, it builds resentment and disobedience in the child...


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## Disenchanted

turnera said:


> Ridiculous. Psychologically speaking, it is YOUR JOB to be your child's superior. So they learn that they WILL ALWAYS HAVE a superior. Parents who think they are 'harming' their child by being strong and 'adversarial' are going to end up with kids who butt their heads against authority the rest of their lives. After all, life is supposed to be rainbows and unicorns, right?




Authority is not absolute nor infallible.

My children think critically, they don't "accept" someone else's form of authority blindly.

My children will not always have a superior, total hogwash.


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## familyfirst09

hambone said:


> Spanking teaches kids that as long as your just talking...you really aren't serious... When you are serious... you get physical...


This.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hambone

turnera said:


> Ridiculous. Psychologically speaking, it is YOUR JOB to be your child's superior. So they learn that they WILL ALWAYS HAVE a superior. Parents who think they are 'harming' their child by being strong and 'adversarial' are going to end up with kids who butt their heads against authority the rest of their lives. After all, life is supposed to be rainbows and unicorns, right?


That is wrong.

When you talk and reason with people... you get along with them..

When you bully people. You do not build a loving, respectful relationship. What you build is resentment. 

When someone "Pushes"... what is your natural instinct? To push back!!! Getting bulled makes people angry.. makes them want to get even! It does not build a spirit of cooperation. It makes enemies...

Children are people to you know. 

And, who do you do when you run into a person who is bigger and stronger than you are and they bully you? Do, you love and respect them.. If you don't overtly push back.. you will do everything you can to undercut them and stab them in the back.

Do you personally prefer that people bully you into doing what they want you to do?


I do not want my children to do just anything a higher authority tells them to do. Some adult teacher tells my daughter to take her clothes off... I want her to have the self confidence to tell them "NO" I don't care who they are...

I don't want my children to feel that physical and verbal abuse is OK if the person is your superior...


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## Coach8

I think one thing that makes a big difference is how old your kids are. Mine are still young, too young to reason with in a rational manner. At their age, I do expect them to follow authority figures blindly, because they are too young to make right decisions without guidance. As they grow, I completely agree that critical thinking is essential and rationalization is a more effective form of discipline. I am a HS teacher. I certainly don't need the threat of spanking to keep control of my classroom. Again, they know who is in charge too, but you can rationalize with HS kids. I don't put up with disrespect from the HS kids either, BTW. That's why my class is quiet as a church mouse, while some other teachers can't control their class. And I have a bunch of students who tell me that they like my class being structured and fairly strict, because they can learn without distraction. Rationalizing with little ones is a lot tougher.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

Some kids are really more challenging then others. My oldest gave hubby and I a run for our money. She was sassy and throwing fits since the day she could talk until the day she moved out and her two siblings are the exact opposite. 

There is no right or wrong way to punish children. Do what works best for you, within reason of course. 

Good luck.


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## hambone

When they are little, you do you best to move anything that might hurt them to a place they can't get to them.

Before my kids could talk, they knew the word, "Bite". They knew that it meant that something would hurt them. After they didn't listen and got bit, there hearing greatly improved. Of course, every once in a while they had to have a reminder lesson.

When my kids made a mistake. They fixed it, made amends, apologize etc and we move on. There is NO penalty for telling us that they messed up. We are their friends. We help them figure out the best way out of a jam. We don't get them out of jams.. but we advise them. 

You have to let you kids feel the pain of their mistakes. THAT is how they build judgment. Pain is nature's way of saying, "Don't do that". 

If you protect your kids from all pain. You fix their mistakes, you pay their fines... you get them out of trouble... you kids don't build judgment. I want their transition into adulthood to be a short step. 

Neither one of my children has ever given me a moment of trouble. We never went through that rebellious stage... DS is almost 21 and DD is 18. Neither has ever gone over "fools' hill". They were both honor graduates in HS and are in college now. 

If I ask either one of them to do something for me... they will. 

While raising my kids, I have given them more and more responsibility as soon as I thought they were ready for it.


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## MsStacy

I had a lot of comments to post and replies to the kind people here to help me in my original post. I had to run to the mall and the toy store for birthday gifts for parties we are attending tomorrow and Wednesday. I had planned to hit those stores solo, today, because I had time before hubby went to work at 3:00. Instead he was called in early at 9am (still has to work thru till midnight) so I got to take my almost 8yo and 2yo with me. Fun. Toy store & shopping with 2 kids. My 2yo got angry because she wanted out of the stroller and I wouldn't carry her thru the mall. She has had an easy gag reflex since birth. When she throws a tantrum and screams hard enough, she pukes. She literally puked from one end of the mall to the other. I had both security & maintenance following me. It was chaotic to say the least. 

I had replies to this hornets nest I apparently stirred. Instead, I'm getting my kids out if the tub, putting them to bed, taking apart the car seat & stroller for the washer, scrubbing down the car, and getting the rest of our puked on laundry in the wash. Oh, and I've been puked on, head to toe. Maybe there will be time for a bubble bath and a drink before the kids wake up in the morning. 

Sorry. I'm spent. I'm married, but I'm essentially a single parent. I totally understand I only have 2 kids and there's others out there who have more, are true single parents, have to work to provide and parent to their best ability at the same time. We're all doing our best. I don't believe condemning will get us anywhere. And I can tell you from experience, what works for one kid does not mean it works for the next. 

So, to each his own. I stink, have a few hours of laundry, and I'm just now feeding my kids dinner after this dreadful night (hot dogs and raspberries, go ahead and blast me for the nitrates). 

I thank everyone for their point of view, advice, what worked for you, and things I hadn't thought of. 

If you want to beat each other down, your way is better than another, your discipline is wrong and mine is right, I think you're abusing your kid because of x,y,z...carry on in your righteousness. I'm too tired.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Coach8

Good grief, sounds like you had a rough day. I understand with 2 little ones. Get some rest if you can....tomorrow is a new day.


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## Lyris

I absolutely want my kids to respectfully question authority. It's not safe not to. 

I have no interest in blind obedience from my children. Consideration for others, yes. Unquestioningly following someone in authority, no. That's how children become victims of sexual abuse and how adults get stuck in jobs where they are bullied and unappreciated.


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## MsStacy

I do have to come back and say.... Regarding a swipe of soap on the tongue being toxic....

I'm not quoting anyone, because as I said earlier, to each his own, and I'm not singling others out for their parenting techniques. 

My question though...do you feed, allow, or does your child eat...m&m's, skittles, hard candy, lolli pops, popsicles, Cheetos, cheez it's, BBQ potato chips, box macaroni & cheese, processed American cheese slices, sodas, diet sodas, Chef BoyRDee, yogurt/bread/candy/canned veggies/salad dressings or anything containing high fructose corn syrup, Chinese food/chips/Campbell's soup/ or frozen dinners containing MSG, anything containing food dye red/blue/yellow, processed meats such as hot dogs/bacon/lunch meats containing nitrates, jello/chewing gum/cereal containing BHA or BHT preservatives, breads plumped up with potassium bromate?

Are you really toxin free? 

This may further stir the hornets nest, which I don't want to do. But I feel some have such a holier than thou attitude, there hasn't been room for "I believe this, you believe that, this works for me and maybe it's an idea for you" instead it's been, "that is toxic, that is wrong, that is abuse, my way is the right way". Good Lord...if you have more than one child, you know that what works for one does not work for all. 

I don't believe we can protect our kids 100%. I don't believe we can parent and punish/correct perfectly. I don't believe that positive reinforcement corrects behavioral problems 100% of the time. But if you're going to tell me that a single swipe of soap on my child's tongue is toxic, harmful, and abuse, then I hope you are within the 1% that feeds none of the above to your own child.


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## Lyris

I don't think soap is toxic. I just can't imagine forcing something that tastes so disgusting into the mouth of my child, who trusts me implicitly.

And how could it work? Unless you were with that child 100% of the time, soap at the ready. My children don't swear. They know that there are words just for home that we don't use outside because it might hurt people's feelings. I don't mind them swearing inside, although so far they don't. 

I actually do think it's objectively a really nasty thing to do to a child, to force soap into their mouths. And it's not necessary, so why do it.


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## MsStacy

Lyris said:


> I don't think soap is toxic. I just can't imagine forcing something that tastes so disgusting into the mouth of my child, who trusts me implicitly.
> 
> And how could it work? Unless you were with that child 100% of the time, soap at the ready. My children don't swear. They know that there are words just for home that we don't use outside because it might hurt people's feelings. I don't mind them swearing inside, although so far they don't.
> 
> I actually do think it's objectively a really nasty thing to do to a child, to force soap into their mouths. And it's not necessary, so why do it.


And that's your perogitive. My daughter has never sworn inside the house. Of course I can't use that universal statement that "she doesn't swear" for outside the house because of course I'm not with her 100% of the time. I am a SAHM, so outside of school, an outing with her father, or an overnight with her grandparents, yes I am there. This is where "to each his own" comes in...because I don't want my 8 year old (I'll call her that because she turns in 3 weeks) saying f*ck, sh*t, or even d*mn inside or outside my house. It has become a thing in our family that we don't even use the word stupid anymore because it's not a nice word, and when she was younger she could not distinguish its use between things, and people (and right now I have a 2yo copying everything her sister says and does). It's all relative. I haven't had to use the "disgusting" taste of soap, the threat & physical presence has been enough and I hope it stays that way. Clearly I am not jumping to it at the slightest provocation or I wouldn't be here. 

How does your style of parenting/consequences/reward work? Are you with your child 100% of the time? None of us are. I don't find the permissiveness of allowing kids to swear inside the home but not outside necessary, so why do it? 

That is the holier than thou I reference.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lyris

My kids don't swear inside, it just wouldn't bother me if they did. It doesn't offend me. It does offend many other people so that's why they don't do it outside. 

And because of the school environment they're in and the closeness of the people they spend time with apart from me yes, I would certainly be aware if they were swearing away from me.


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## familyfirst09

Ha, I know my kid swears somewhat outside the home because she will be telling me a story and if she's excited a "swear" word will pop out lol. But I do the same thing. Now mind you, there has never been the F bomb but "shut up, hate, frig, hell, and dam" are considered swear words in our house. 
I have a reward jar for my D, she gets "diamonds" for good things and she loses them for bad things. For swearing, she loses 2 and if she hears me swear, I have to give her 2, lol. But it works and there's no soap involved!! (I often have to give more than take away lol)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dollystanford

If the worst thing my child (17) does is let out the occasional swear word then I've done a pretty good job. Once they are in senior school there's not a lot you can do anyway - if they are brought up to respect others they'll understand that it is offensive to some and not acceptable to use in general conversation. 

My daughter swears occasionally but in the context of her usual behaviour I really couldn't give less of a f*ck


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## Lyris

Dolly they make non toxic soap for that now


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## MsStacy

Dollystanford said:


> If the worst thing my child (17) does is let out the occasional swear word then I've done a pretty good job. Once they are in senior school there's not a lot you can do anyway - if they are brought up to respect others they'll understand that it is offensive to some and not acceptable to use in general conversation.
> 
> My daughter swears occasionally but in the context of her usual behaviour I really couldn't give less of a f*ck


I totally agree. 

My daughter swearing has never been an issue, it's a tangent this thread has gone down. My issue is the sassy and disrespectful tone she's been speaking with and getting that back under control.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink

MsStacy said:


> I totally agree.
> 
> My daughter swearing has never been an issue, it's a tangent this thread has gone down. My issue is the sassy and disrespectful tone she's been speaking with and getting that back under control.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You've tried punishments.
You've taken away her stuff.

What else have you tried and how has it worked?


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