# Needed to Vent



## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Ok, I posted this on Social on the "what are you thinking right now" thread because I just needed to vent, not necessarily dissect things ... BUT I was urged to bring it here. I agree ... I really could use some perspective ...


I am thinking ... I have had enough!! I need to vent.

I am in my office at home going through finances. My youngest daughter comes upstairs and says "Mommy needs the checkbook." I asked "did she say why?." She says, "I don't know." I am p!ssed (more on that later). So, I give her the checkbook and tell her that I'll be down in a minute. So maybe 5 minutes later I come down and they have all gone. Her car is gone from the driveway.

Ok, background. I am the sole breadwinner and while I make a good living, I am in a little bit of a financial crunch. Nothing terrible but enough where I have to be careful. A lot of big bills totaling several grand all around the same time on top of our normal expenses. I normally pay in cash for everything but my buffer is all but gone right now. I haven't used credit in years but I might have to temporarily. On top of that we just added a new monthly expense with braces. Meanwhile my wife has been spending like crazy and I only find out after the fact. It is a conversation I've had with her over and over and over ... that I need to know ahead of time what she is spending and for what.

I had it out with her this week. I just so happened to see a check sitting on the counter late at night and then the next day she is sitting at the kitchen table writing another check ... big dollar amount. I have no idea what for. I told her ok, this has to stop. "If you are going to write checks I need to know ahead of time and for how much." She then asks "why?" I'm thinking ... are you fvcking kidding me? Why???? Are you an idiot? (not saying this out loud, of course). I said how am I supposed to manage the finances when you are spending money I don't know about? You've got untold number of checks out there that haven't hit yet and I have no clue for how much. This has got to stop! She said, "but it's for (whatever - a kid thing)" I said "STOP! That is NOT the point!!!" (I'm really getting irritated at this point.) I said, "I need to know so I can plan accordingly." She has this deer in headlights look at this point and just gives me an unsure "ooookayyy" ... like it was a question.

So, conversation done but I'm fuming. I mean how many times do I have to have this conversation? I'm headed back to my budget but I've had it ... I turn around, head back downstairs into the kitchen and take the checkbook from her. I said "Ok. We have had this conversation many times. How many times do we have to go over this before you listen to me? I have told you countless times I need to know what you are spending. This is it and I am done. You no longer have access to the checkbook. We do NOT have an endless supply of money. If you need to write a check, you need to come to me, tell me what it is for and for how much." Again, deer in headlights.

So what just happened? Two things:

1) She sends our daughter to get the checkbook. She does this type of thing constantly. She doesn't want to confront me so she sends her messenger, unfairly putting my girls in the middle.
2) She breaks the rule. No explanation and no amount. She disappears with the checkbook. I am so P!SSED.

I was already upset from earlier in the day. Saturday is gymnastics day for my youngest daughter and I usually take her. My wife tells me before I leave that I might have to drop my daughter off at her church after gymnastics, so call her before I leave. Ok, will do.

So, I call her when we are done with gymnastics and she says "yes, bring her up to the church, she has a few activities to do to prepare for the camporee" (I'm taking my daughters camping next weekend with their troop.) She then asks if I can come back to pick my daughter up again a little later because she has to take my other daughter to get pictures taken with her dance class. I said, I really can't ... I have to (named of my todo list). She said ok, I'll take her with me. I asked so how much is this going to cost? She asks "what?" I said "the pictures, how much are they going to cost?" She says, "oh, not much, I can't remember ... probably only about $100." My demeanor changes ... I'm getting a little frustrated. I asked, "why didn't you tell me ahead of time?" Her response, "I forgot, I didn't think it was a big deal." (Ok, a $100 is not that big of a deal ... but she's breaking my boundary ... and when you add $100 here or there and then another $180 for this and $240 for this, $310 for that, etc. in unplanned expenses in a short period of time ... it starts becoming a big deal) I said, "ok, but don't go out to lunch." She says, "well ... then I have to go grocery shopping." I normally do the grocery shopping because when she goes, I can count on doubling the amount I would spend because she buys a ton of crap. I said, "we have food at home. You can survive until you get home. I have a lot of bills to pay right now."

So, we get to the church and everybody is leaving. She says, "sorry, I thought everybody was staying or I wouldn't have asked you to drop her off." OK. We chat with the leader of the camporee for a little while and head out into the parking lot. She then asked ... "so what are you making us for lunch?" I am very irritated at this point so I just say "we'll decide when we get home."

I might sound like the always irritated, mean, grouchy husband right now but I'm not normally that way. There's a lot more to it.

Here are my thoughts on the way home:
1) I hate our marriage.

2) It is not a marriage. It is a friendship and that friend takes advantage of me.

3) She feels entitled to spend whatever she pleases.

4) We are in a sexless marriage. She doesn't care. I do. It isn't so much about sex as it is intimacy but it is very important to me. Why the fvck would I want to make lunch for her ... I can't even get freaking laid. What the hell is our marriage good for if that isn't part of it? I am sick of thinking about it honestly. I feel like a pervert as often as I think about sex ... entirely because we don't have it.

5) We have problems in our marriage. She won't talk about it. She will not tell me what she needs or wants. I've seen her texts to her friends, she knows there is a problem. Every conversation about working on our marriage in the last year has been initiated by me and it is mostly me talking and her listening and not saying much. When I ask her point blank, she doesn't have much to say. She'll say ... well, "the girls are uncomfortable that they are always in a rush to get out in the morning so it would help if you get up a little earlier when you make breakfast for them so they aren't in such a rush." Ehh??? Ok, I can do that but ... not really the meaningful feedback I was hoping for.

6) This woman puts so much effort into her children. I am also putting her through school because after years of being a SAHM, her degree doesn't help and she wants to become a teacher ... she has put an amazing amount of effort into school. Very impressive. She will not put one ounce of effort into our marriage.

7) I can't live like this. I just can't. I can't spend the rest of my life without intimacy with someone who puts no effort into our relationship and just freaking mooches off of me like she deserves it. I don't know if I will find somebody else who will want to be in a relationship with me ... logically I would think SOMEBODY will but it is scary ... but I do know that I am almost guaranteed not to have that if things continue as they have.

I am about as done as I've ever been.

Thank you for letting me vent.


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## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

Is MC an option?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

"I don't know if I will find somebody else who will want to be in a relationship with me ... logically I would think SOMEBODY will but it is scary."

This is the source of your problem, JSGW. Your wife has figured out that you do not have enough self-respect to enforce boundaries in your marriage. Why do you feel like this? You sound like a great husband to me.

Is this a blended family situation? That can cause problems of its own.

Download a copy of No More Mister Nice Guy. Identify all the times that you are allowing your wife to take advantage of you. Do not let her have access to your checkbook. Stop doing all the cooking by yourself. Take action to let her know that you will be respected.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

Wow, I'm getting mad at her just by reading this, I'm sorry. Talk about feeling entitled has she ever worked before? Seems like she does not understand money has to be in the account before you spend it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## firefly789 (Apr 9, 2013)

I'm sorry to hear your situation. It does sound very frustrating.It also sounds like you have several issues going. How long have you been married? Has W ever worked? She seems pretty clueless about money.

There's the disrespect. It doesn't sound like your W gives you any respect. You are more of the provider/taxi/cook. You sound like a doormat. Where was the follow through on your part after saying no more checkbook? This is a bad role model for your children.

There's the money. Is there no common sense here for her. I do our bills at home and my H and I both know there are certain times when large bills come in and we need to be more careful. She sounds like if there are checks in the book, there must be money. Maybe give her her own acct. to be responsible for and when money is gone for the month, oh well.

There's the sex, or lack thereof. Sex binds a marriage together. The intimacy is important, along with the sex.

It sounds like this has simmered for too long and she's never had any consequences or realized how upset you are over the state of your marriage. How are you at communicating? Have you talked this over? Seen any changes? Maybe go to a marriage counselor to talk you both through this? You need to give it your best effort because it sounds like you're ready to throw in the towel.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Thoreau said:


> Is MC an option?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well ... we separated a few years ago for bigger reasons ... including but not limited to our inability to communicate.

The big reason was that she was supposed to be homeschooling the girls, her choice ... but was spending all of her time socializing and spending money (she isn't a big spender ... she's a nickel and dime spender). My girls are bright ... and they were falling behind. She refused to acknowledge what was going on. She would stay up til 2 in the morning playing games on facebook and then get up late in the morning while the girls fended for themselves. I would come home, the house would be a wreck and I would ask the girls what they learned in school. More often than not they would say, "well, we went over to so and so's and played outside while mommy talked" ... or some other variation. This was my big driving issue for separation. All the other things were problems too ... but now we had a situation that was harmful for my daughters and THAT was the deciding factor.

I was able to accomplish getting my girls in school. They are thriving and it was the right thing to do. My wife now wants to become a teacher. She admitted in a tearful confession during our separation that she had made a mistake; that she didn't see it but putting them in school was the right thing to do.

When we separated, I essentially went no contact for one month. I say essentially because we still needed to keep communicating regarding the children, splitting up time, other responsibilities.

We agreed that after one month of separation, we would attend marriage counseling. We did and that went on for several months. It was difficult. I was very angry at her for the schooling, the lack of intimacy ... having to do everything around the house while working full time ... a lot of other things too ... and it had really built up. When my mistakes were talked about ... well, that was a smack in the face. I had to come to terms that I contributed significantly to the problems and I think communication was at the root of it. I didn't know how to communicate what I needed ... or that I had needs. I thought I was ... but it was not clear to her. That has been a real focus for me since we've reconciled; the problem is that right now I'm the only one communicating.

Yes, I think with the amount of personal growth that has taken place since our separation and reconciliation ... I would be receptive to marriage counseling.

The one thing about marriage counseling is that it didn't help our relationship. I think it helped me in my own personal growth but while my wife was receptive to going through it, I think everything that was said just bounced off her teflon shell.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

JSGW - not respecting my financial boundaries (very similar to your situation) was a huge problem in my first marriage. I know how you feel.

Just a thought here: have you read MMSL Primer?

.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Why didn't you just tell your daughter no, her mother needed to come and get the checkbook herself? I realise that doesn't address the deeper problems you have, but you set the boundary re the checkbook and then allowed her to walk all over it.

She doesn't take you seriously.


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## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

Time to set firm boundaries....with consequences.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Your wife sounds like she has a huge sense of entitlement. You also are responsible, to a degree, because you are talking AT her, but not taking firm action. Do NOT hand your daughter the checkbook. 

I'm sure you know what the 180 is. Sounds like it is way past time to implement it, because your wife is taking you for granted big-time. Also sounds like the money issue is one of control. She goes out and buys crap you don't need at the grocery store, she spends money on nickle-and-dime junk. It's her P-A way of asserting her control. At least in her mind, but that's JMO.

I assume your wife is intelligent enough to come up with a weekly menu plan, inventory the pantry/fridge, and buy necessary groceries without buying lots of other junk. Sit down and make up a meal plan. If you think she is capable of doing so, send her to the grocery store and see if she can stick to the list. If not, I'd say it is once again about her P-A way of "controlling" the situation.

This doesn't sound like much of a marriage, and even less a partnership. It sounds like you are at the point of pulling the plug. Maybe letting her know that will be her wake-up call.

Do you think there is anything else you can do to get the marriage back on track? Has she always been LD, sexually speaking, or did sex go out the window when she started investing all her time in the kids? 

If you've got a P-A on your hands, it doesn't sound particularly good for the long run. I liken dealing with a P-A spouse to dragging a dead whale across the sand. I married one, and I had to learn to detach ... by moving to another city.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Lyris said:


> Why didn't you just tell your daughter no, her mother needed to come and get the checkbook herself? I realise that doesn't address the deeper problems you have, but you set the boundary re the checkbook and then allowed her to walk all over it.
> 
> She doesn't take you seriously.


Actually, someone else pointed that out in the other thread. I realized I had made that mistake when I came downstairs and found that they had disappeared. I came downstairs specifically to tell her that I need her to come to me directly and not through proxy ... I simply needed 5 minutes to complete my thought with what I was working on. I had no idea they would disappear in the span of 5 minutes, lol.

I've thought about that ... is it that she doesn't take me seriously? Sounds like it but I'm not sure about that. 

Here's what I think happens and maybe this will shed some light:

I have struggled to set boundaries with her throughout our marriage. I admit to not being strong with that when I was younger. I have gotten better over the years and especially within the last 5 or 6 years.

She has struggled with depression since I've known her. My youngest daughter also has borderline anxiety/depression and is seeing a counselor for that. Me and my oldest daughter are not like that at all. 

While I don't like pointing fingers at a childhood for the actions of an adult but it is instructive to know that my wife had a difficult childhood. Her father was an alcoholic that lived in bars/pubs. They didn't know when they would see him and sometimes they would find him passed out somewhere in the house and unable to wake him up. Her mom divorced her father and then became rather promiscuous with women ... very confusing for her. Her mom was absent much of the time except when bringing "friends" home. This was in NYC during the 70's-80's. She lived in Queens and took the public bus to the Bronx for school for many years as a child. She had to grow up very quickly. In addition to being mugged and various other things during her childhood ... she was raped as a teenager. She helped herself get through that by becoming a rape counselor for several years.

My wife is a very sensitive person. I have often found it difficult to say anything that might be construed as criticism because she takes it very personally no matter how delicately I frame it. That makes it difficult to set boundaries. How many times have I struggled to prepare to say something to her so that I can get it across without her taking it personally. When boundaries are set she doesn't hear what it is that I need ... the mere need to set boundaries is interpreted as a personal attack and her walls go up. I do think it is related in part to our intimacy issue, especially in regards to the act of sex. She does not trust ... and therefore she doesn't just live in the moment. She has to be in control of herself. It is the same reason she has never been drunk. She has been tipsy enough to realize that it is unpleasant for her to let go of control. She is just as happy as can be to avoid confrontation, sex, etc. ... anything that takes her out of her comfort zone.

She has been in and out of counseling for much of her adult life, trying to come to terms with herself and her childhood. She is heavily medicated for depression.

She has a college degree and worked for about 9 years after we married. She was quite successful at it and at one point was the HR Director for a very large international law firm; nice window office on the 46th floor of one of the buildings in downtown Dallas. She wanted to be a SAHM when we had our first child and that was a decision I supported. So, she's been out of the workforce for about 11 years. She is an outstanding social event organizer. She works really well with people. She is not the brightest person ... I will have to admit ... but that is one thing she really has a knack for. 

She was in control of our finances for several years. I did that specifically because she had no awareness of our expenses and she used to be very responsible with her money. It was a disaster. I made even more money during those years and yet one day I intercepted a collection call ... and then a second one. I found one in the mail. I immediately took control of the finances. We were in trouble and I don't know what the heck was going through her mind. She literally just ignored bills even though the money was there. It took me a few months to get caught up but I saw no reason why she would have any problem managing the finances. 

I had a thought that I married her mom. Her mom is a mystery to me. This is a woman who is completely self-sufficient by herself but when she gets around people, she becomes helpless. It drives EVERYBODY crazy. My wife is a lot like that and especially around me. It's as if she can't figure out anything for herself but I know that on her own she is completely self-reliant. That's where the deer in the headlights look comes in ... it's as if she doesn't even understand what I'm saying.


I am about halfway through NMMNG. I am enjoying the book. I see many things in it that I have worked on over the years and become better at and there have been some revelations. The Married Man Sex Life Primer is sitting right in front of me - that's next.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Why did you get back together?... its still very dysfunctional.

You let this dynamic occur... so change it. Or leave.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

firefly789 said:


> *There's the disrespect. It doesn't sound like your W gives you any respect. You are more of the provider/taxi/cook. You sound like a doormat. Where was the follow through on your part after saying no more checkbook? This is a bad role model for your children.
> *


This is the one thing I will disagree on. I don't believe I'm a doormat and I don't think she perceives that I am either. I have no problems saying "no", for example and she knows that. In fact, she would rather avoid a confrontation with me if at all possible. It is more a reflection of her than it is of me, I believe.

I do agree that perhaps she wasn't aware that there would be consequences to once again taking the checkbook. On that note, I really was 5 minutes away from "follow-through", lol ... my big mistake was giving the checkbook to my daughter and then expecting they would still be there a few minutes later. I was p!ssed ... and that conversation was happening ... and will happen.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Well, I just had a conversation with her about something else entirely. Her and my daughters (under her direction) take the garbage out in the kitchen. That is one of their chores. Well, they don't put it in the garbage bin in the garage, they have a bad habit of putting it on the step right next to the door to the garage. To be fair, the bags are heavy for them and they can't get it in the garbage bin. That is fine. What isn't fine is that they frequently don't tie the bags or they dump them upside down, creating a disaster in the garage. Well, just a short-time ago, I walked into the garage and there was an overflowing bag that had dumped half of its contents on the floor. I called everyone into the garage and explained to them why this is a problem and then made them clean it up.

My wife is now sulking like I took away her puppy.

I'm not an angry yelling person, that is VERY rare. I do get a stern authoritative voice and they are noticeably intimidated by it. I hate it. I don't want to have to do it. Someone mentioned that I talked AT my wife. Well, after so many times talking with her, I just don't know what else to do. She's like a kid ... how often do I have to repeat myself?


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Let her sulk. You have to show her that you are serious about changing the dynamic of your relationship. Actions, not words. Don't make excuses for her dysfunctional childhood. She is an adult now and should act like one.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Why did you get back together?... its still very dysfunctional.
> 
> You let this dynamic occur... so change it. Or leave.


I did not want to get back together ... not really. She forced my hand financially; refusing to work (in my state that is bad for me); threatening to leave immediately with the kids to Texas to live with her mother. I really felt that I could better serve my kids if I wasn't bankrupt.

What I did think was that with the new perspective I had, I could be a better communicator and maybe it would work. Why not give it another shot. That combined with the financial reality after a year of separation and I decided to really make an effort. It's not working and it doesn't help when I'm the only one who seems to be working on it.

I am trying very hard to change the dynamic. I am trying to make it work. I have come on here and discussed a number of issues searching for answers. I've read books, I've spent countless hours just thinking things over in my head. I am also working hard on me too. Throughout this whole process I've learned a lot about myself ... and I had no idea. I'm really tired.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Well, I just had a conversation with her about something else entirely. Her and my daughters (under her direction) take the garbage out in the kitchen. That is one of their chores. Well, they don't put it in the garbage bin in the garage, they have a bad habit of putting it on the step right next to the door to the garage. To be fair, the bags are heavy for them and they can't get it in the garbage bin. That is fine. What isn't fine is that they frequently don't tie the bags or they dump them upside down, creating a disaster in the garage. Well, just a short-time ago, I walked into the garage and there was an overflowing bag that had dumped half of its contents on the floor. I called everyone into the garage and explained to them why this is a problem and then made them clean it up.
> 
> My wife is now sulking like I took away her puppy.


Typical passive/aggressive move. Agree to do something (that you don't really want to do), then screw it up so the other person never asks you to do it again.

Ladies, why do you think your husband screws up the laundry? Hint: it's not because he's too dumb to figure it out.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

So ... they disappeared. Not a word. My guess is she is sulking her way to her favorite ice cream place; that or a friend's house.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Ok, she's still gone ... have no idea where. Not responding. Looks like we're having another conversation tonight. I really don't want to get into it with her again; I'm just tired of this ... and no, she hasn't given the checkbook back yet. So what's that ... two conversations.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> I'm just tired of this ... and no, she hasn't given the checkbook back yet. So what's that ... two conversations.


What you are doing is not working. Do you realize that? I am sensing something from the way you have responded to the various responses in this thread. And that is, you are done.

I don't think you want to listen to her any longer. Does she deserve to be listened to? Actually, no. She's doing the passive-aggressive "thing" to the hilt.

Sorry to tell you this ... but you DO come across as a doormat.

Financial debacle? Maybe. But she is happily ensconced in her role. She probably knows you won't leave, because the financial fallout has you worried. As it should.

But this marriage sucks. Sorry, but you have to suck it up or leave. I don't think she has any impetus to change. You leave? She'll go for your financial throat. You stay? She'll continue behaving the same way.

What do you think you should do?


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Blue Firefly said:


> Ladies, why do you think your husband screws up the laundry? Hint: it's not because he's too dumb to figure it out.


Uh, no it's not. But he doesn't care if his undies are dyed pink or the shirts are wrinkled. Heck, fine by me.

He doesn't screw up my laundry; I happily do my own.

'Nuff said.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Prodigal said:


> What you are doing is not working. Do you realize that? I am sensing something from the way you have responded to the various responses in this thread. And that is, you are done.
> 
> I don't think you want to listen to her any longer. Does she deserve to be listened to? Actually, no. She's doing the passive-aggressive "thing" to the hilt.
> 
> ...


Ok, I need to understand ... why do I sound like a doormat?

Why do I sound like I do not want to listen? She has to say something for me to hear it. What I won't do is interpret; I AM done with that. She needs to communicate. She barely talks to me unless it has to do with the kids or her school. I do listen to that. She will not talk about us. So ... I'm not able to follow you here ...

I do realize what I'm doing is not working. That is why I am here ... trying to figure it out. Give me a B for effort and and F for performance ... but yes, what I'm doing is not working. However, I have spent a long time beating myself up over that .... really tearing myself down. I AM done with that.

I am completely open to suggestions. You might sense that I am done ... I have have never been closer but today especially I am really frustrated with her. I seem to cycle through these feelings about it; I try, I fail, I'm angry, I'm done, etc. One of these days the "I try" is not going to happen.

EDIT: Have you ever taken a DISC personality assessment? Well, I have to take it for work ... and I score highest in the D category which is interpreted as "Dominance" or decision makers. In fact, it is almost a perfect score. It is not my natural ability but it is adapted. Here is a description.

High "D" people are described as demanding, forceful, egocentric, strong willed, driving, determined, ambitious, aggressive, and pioneering.

That's why I'm very interested why you have interpreted me as a doormat. Something is telling you that. It is quite possible I am a "D" at work and not a "D" at home.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> It is quite possible I am a "D" at work and not a "D" at home.


Sure it is. You have a family. You want your children to be raised in a two-parent home. You are trying to smooth things out.

I can tell you the way I behaved in the workplace was vastly different from the way I behaved at home. I was in charge of supervising a lot of people at work. My personal life was left behind when I entered the office. I NEVER discussed my personal life with coworkers because I was being paid to work, not to take part in a group counseling session. My work ethic was vastly different from my private life, as I believe is yours. 

You have mentioned what you have done to try to get your wife to comply and work as a team member in a marital relationship. The thing is, she isn't doing JACK to work as a team member. Your sex life is kaput, she is running around town using the check book at her discretion, and she is giving you the cold shoulder when you try to assert yourself.

Sh!t, man, what more can I say? As a woman married to man who is the quintessential nice guy (alcoholic though he may be...), I will tell you that I don't respect his stance. On the other hand, I am no longer combative nor assertive. It serves no purpose for me to mount an all-out control-a-thon battle.

However, your wife is doing it. As a woman, I "hear" what you are saying. As a woman, I think you need to lay down the law. Hey, you wrote that you gave your daughter the check book, not knowing exactly what your wife needed to buy. You also admitted you don't like your kids being used as the intermediaries for this "war."

I'm on your side. Please believe that. But I'm just some schlub out in cyberspace. I'm giving you my gut reaction/opinion.

I think you need to lay down the law without being a d!ck about it, which CAN be done. As I suggested, how would she react if you sat down with her, put together a weekly menu, and wrote up a grocery list?

Uh, actually that sounds pretty lame - even to me. You are sick and tired of being sick and tired. With that being said, I have to ask you: what do you want to do at this point? Because what you are doing thus far doesn't seem to be working.

Again, I AM on your side. I haven't heard her version, so I have to ask what else you think you could do, if anything, to remedy this situation. After all, you are the one here seeking advice.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

No, I appreciate that you are on my side and I realize you haven't heard my wife's perspective. It is valuable to hear an objective opinion from cyberspace. Of course, you can only judge based on my words but I think I am representing it well.

I don't know what my wife's perspective is for certain. I can tell you that she wishes to be pursued. My problem is that I have lost a certain amount of respect for her after all that has happened in our relationship. In order for me to want to pursue her, she has to also want to make an effort to save her marriage. That starts with communication and right now that communication is one way. I start and stop on that one ... trying various ways to pursue her (dates, etc.) but it's very one-sided. As far as pursuing her sexually ... well two things 1) she rejected me for years. I have a high sex drive and hers is much lower, and 2) she is now morbidly obese >330lbs. I am not attracted to that. We have now discussed that and all I need/want is some effort on her part to make progress on that. Do it for the kids, do it for your own health ... just do it. A 330lb woman breaking a sweat is a heck of a lot sexier than a 330lb woman sitting on her butt. She knows that and so far there has been no desire on her part to do anything about it.

Tonight I had a conversation covering 4 things:
1) Where she ran off to and that I need her to tell me where she's going and for how long.
2) The checkbook. 
3) Using my daughters as an intermediary.
4) I made it clear that this marriage wasn't worth saving if she wasn't going to lift a finger to try to save it. 

The last one is a discussion we've never had before; the others are repeats.

All I got was an "oookaayyy??" I waited. No further response. She's still in her room, playing games on her phone. I am sure she is fuming but she doesn't want to talk about it. I have never interpreted that as disrespect or apathy ... I really do believe it is avoidance; she does not want to engage me in a debate. I hate that ... but that is the way she is. Balls are sensitive; she needs to grow a vagina.

So here is the end game. In Indiana, where I live, she does not receive alimony unless she has not worked for 10 years. I need her to work. I am putting her through school to become a teacher. It was supposed to wrap up in May ... but she failed her student-teaching assignment (teacher didn't like her because she wasn't disciplined enough, go figure). She has to repeat the assignment this fall. She has the potential to start working in January in a sub role. That may be enough to get out of the alimony requirement. In fact, that changes a few things. She is much less likely to move to Texas until she has some experience under her belt. If I file for divorce before she moves, I can get a court order to prevent that. As a SAHM, I would have had to pay alimony AND child support AND most of the debt (car loan, etc.). The alimony + child support was more than half my gross income paid out of my net income. That would have bankrupted me a year ago (I think I could squeak by now) but it completely changes if we are both working. That is the end game. If things continue as they have been then I may actually file for a legal separation under the same roof prior to that.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

lovesherman said:


> "I don't know if I will find somebody else who will want to be in a relationship with me ... logically I would think SOMEBODY will but it is scary."
> 
> This is the source of your problem, JSGW. Your wife has figured out that you do not have enough self-respect to enforce boundaries in your marriage. Why do you feel like this? You sound like a great husband to me.
> 
> ...


No, it is not a blended family.

Here's the deal ... it is just the fear of the unknown. I haven't dated in 23 years. I am a fit guy with a good career. I am quite certain there is a future for me. I am not a natural extrovert and that was a problem for me early in my dating life but I am different now. When my wife and I met, we had a connection unlike any of my previous relationships. That connection isn't there anymore me and my wife ... but that is the big unknown. It isn't ... would somebody be interested in me ... it is, can I come across that connection again. I do know it will be very different. I'm 45 and the type of woman I will come across will likely be divorced, have children at some stage of their life and have baggage of their own ... that is also an unknown for me. I myself will have a much better idea of what I want and don't want at this stage of my life. I would be picky, I think. Will the stars align?

Having read half of No More Mister Nice Guy so far ... I am expressing my feeling on it. Fear of the unknown (dating prospects). That doesn't mean I will let that feeling prevent me from going that route


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Asking again, OP:

Have you ever read MMSL Primer?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I don't understand your wife and I'm glad you're making plans to get out.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

Prodigal said:


> Uh, no it's not. But he doesn't care if his undies are dyed pink or the shirts are wrinkled. Heck, fine by me.
> 
> He doesn't screw up my laundry; I happily do my own.
> 
> 'Nuff said.


Ok, it's not you, but it is other guys. Obviously, no stereotype is 100%.

But, the garbage thing he describes and the stereotypical "men screwing up the laundry" and are both passive/aggressive. Start with someone doing a chore that is normally performed by the other gender (men usually take out the garbage; women usually do laundry). The agree to do it, but inside they are angry about having to do one of their spouse's chores. So, when they do the chore they vent their anger by doing it poorly to punish the spouse that made them do it (even though they agreed to do it). 

If he is dealing with a passive/aggressive spouse, he has a big problem on his hands. The typical marriage advice (imho) won't work, because P/As are as slippery as snakes.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> ...she is now morbidly obese >330lbs. I am not attracted to that. We have now discussed that and all I need/want is some effort on her part to make progress on that. Do it for the kids, do it for your own health ... just do it. A 330lb woman breaking a sweat is a heck of a lot sexier than a 330lb woman sitting on her butt. She knows that and so far there has been no desire on her part to do anything about it.


Huge red flag here. Even if she was as tall as 5-10, she would still be carrying around over 150 pounds of extra weight.

Having had relatives in this position, IMHO this causes all kinds of other problems. From depression to don't-give-a-damn-itis to a live-for-today attitude. They figure things will only get worse (they see how many problems older heavy people have), and they no longer believe they can lose weight and avoid that eventual fate.

This is not the kind of thing you can exercise you way out of. The fact is a person that large doesn't have the physical stamina to exercise long enough to actually have an affect on their weight--and deep down she knows it. Telling her to get off her but and start breaking a sweat to lose weight is counter-productive. 

I'm a huge fan of the low-carb/paleo approach (and I have lost big numbers on it). It's not a fad, there really is good science behind why it works.

Watch the documentary "Fat Head" (it's available for free on Hulu: Watch Fat Head online | Free | Hulu). It's a humorous introduction to low-carb.

_Why We Get Fat_ by Gary Taubes (Why We Get Fat: And What to Do About It: Gary Taubes: Amazon.com: Kindle Store) which is a summary of his book _Good Calories Bad Calories_ Good Calories, Bad Calories: Gary Taubes: Amazon.com: Kindle Store goes into details about the why's of low-carb, and recommends a solid low-carb diet in the back.

You should also go over to paleohacks.com Paleo Diet, Paleolithic Diet and Lifestyle Questions and Answers. There actually are people on there who were in your wife's position and returned to a normal weight. Paleo, while not perfect, gives you a good rule-of-thumb about food choices.

I lost 50 pounds last year doing paleo, and I can truthfully say that (1) I didn't exercise once, (2) I didn't count calories, portion my food, or limit my food intake in any way--I just ate when I felt like eating, and (3) I didn't get hungry--literally not one time.

Number 3 above, imho, is the key to why paleo works. You are eating a diet that suppresses you hunger. As a practical matter, instead of regulating your calories (like a traditional diet), *you are regulating your hunger*. You don't get hungry, you don't have the urge to eat as much, and you lose weight.

OK, I'm off my diet soapbox/thread-jack now.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

330 lbs?

Jeezus, really? 

Are you afraid of her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> I did not want to get back together ... not really. She forced my hand financially; refusing to work (in my state that is bad for me); threatening to leave immediately with the kids to Texas to live with her mother. I really felt that I could better serve my kids if I wasn't bankrupt.


1. So you two were playing poker, she raised the bet, you looked at your cards, and folded. Now it's your turn to raise the stake and call her bluff. Tell her something like: _"Fine. We stay married and share finances, but from now on we are just parents/roommates in an open marriage and I'm going to find some companionship."_ 

Of course, don't say something like that unless you are prepared to follow through with it!


2. On a separate note I have a suggestion for handling your checkbook problems: 

*STOP USING THE CHECKBOOK!!!*

Or simply put it away and only use it for very unusual circumstances. It's the year 2013. Checks are obsolete. Pay for everything with cash or debit cards. For bills, use auto-pay, electronic allotments, or pay online. I lived for years in Europe and not many Europeans use checks anymore. Give your wife a debit card, and then she can't spend more than you have in the bank. Or give her a debit card for a separate account and put her monthly budget in there. If you need to be extremely cautious, you can give her a pre-paid debit card instead. Problem solved.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

Sorry OP, I seems like your relationship is just one way, all she is doing is receiving, she is not contributing economically, she sucked at the homeschooling, failed as as student, as a mother not a good example (her weight, putting daughter up) this is your problem. She's not giving you anything, it should be 50/50. 

She needs help but she's too comfortable to do anything. I think you need to start by asking her for more contribution. Whether financially or with home chores, plus it will help with the weight problem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> I don't know what my wife's perspective is for certain.
> 
> In order for me to want to pursue her, she has to also want to make an effort to save her marriage. That starts with communication and right now that communication is one way.
> 
> ... she is now morbidly obese >330lbs. I am not attracted to that. ... so far there has been no desire on her part to do anything about it.


Wow. You have a real situation on your hands. It sounds like you are dealing with a passive-aggressive. Granted, she is probably depressed too, but p-a's generally find ways to "medicate" their feelings. After all, straight-up confrontation and outright anger are often considered bad. She may not even be completely aware she is depressed. But she self-medicates with food ... lots of food. My husband chose the alcohol route. 

I, too, would have discussions. He would often just sit there when I was through and just have a rather blank look on his face. When I would say, "Do you want to respond? Do you have anything you wish to say?", I would get a flat "No." I learned I was driving myself crazy and carrying the relationship alone. I eventually left.



JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Tonight I had a conversation covering 4 things:
> 1) Where she ran off to and that I need her to tell me where she's going and for how long.
> 2) The checkbook.
> 3) Using my daughters as an intermediary.
> ...


So, am I correct in assuming she didn't tell you where she ran off to? There is something that is really coming through to me about this one-way discussion. And I don't mean this in a critical way; I just want to let you know what this sounds like to me. You need her to tell you where she is going and for how long. She responded with a questionable "okay" and started playing games on her phone. This sounds like a parent telling their child what boundaries need to be in place, and the child sulking in her room as a show of anger.

But one thing I've learned the hard way about p-a's is that with all their passive tendencies, they hold a great deal of power in a relationship. As long as we give it to them. At this point, I think you've pretty much talked about the issues a number of times, and she's not going to budge. 



JustSomeGuyWho said:


> I am putting her through school to become a teacher. It was supposed to wrap up in May ... but she failed her student-teaching assignment (teacher didn't like her because she wasn't disciplined enough, go figure).


It sounds like your motivation for her to finish school is to get her to work so you won't be left holding the bag for a large amount of alimony. Am I right that she hasn't worked in more than 10 years? I am not familiar with Indiana law, but alimony (now generally referred to as "spousal support") is generally only granted for a specific period of time, in order that the non-employed spouse can gain the necessary skills to get gainful employment. (Often easier said than done in this crummy economy.) 

But your wife failed her student-teaching assignment. Interesting. I wonder just how much she is picking up that you are about to throw in the towel? P-A's can put on a great show of acting like they don't know what is going on in a relationship. I often got responses like, "I don't know," "Whadya mean?" and other gee-I'm-dumb answers. But my p-a knew the score; he just didn't want to become involved in any in-depth discussions. After all, that would mean all sorts of emotions would come to the surface. And that is something a p-a wants to avoid.

I think your wife is going to continue doing just what she is doing. And I wouldn't be surprised if she messes up another student-teaching assignment. She's going to keep the status quo going as long as she can.

I suggest you have a consultation with a family law attorney, if you haven't done so already. It doesn't sound as if the p-a in your life is going to get outside her comfort zone and become emotionally invested to the level you need for the marriage to work.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

old timer said:


> 330 lbs?
> 
> Jeezus, really?
> 
> ...


This is very common among rape victims.They are protecing themselves by making themselves unnatractive.If anything she is afraid of him .


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

1) What makes you think she will ever go to work once she gets her degree? She doesn't seem that motivated to do anything from what you say.

2) What makes you think she'll even be able to find a job as a teacher? School districts have been cutting their budgets. There are a limited amount of job slots with multiple people applying for each one.

3) What makes you think she'll even be able to find a job period? She weighs 330 pounds. Like it or not, there is a definite prejidice against hiring the morbidly obese. When your wife walks through the door, they aren't going to say "wow, there an energetic go-getter." 

The woman in the picture below weighs 330 pounds (I know this isn't your wife, it's just for perspective). Do you think any company is going to be hiring her for a job that requires her to be on her feet more than a couple hours a day (school teachers are on their feet all day)? 

In other words, quit focusing so much on her going back to work so you don't have to pay alimony. For a number of reasons, the odds are she never will go back to work.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Theseus said:


> Or give her a debit card for a separate account and put her monthly budget in there. If you need to be extremely cautious, you can give her a pre-paid debit card instead. Problem solved.


:iagree:


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Blue Firefly said:


> In other words, quit focusing so much on her going back to work so you don't have to pay alimony. For a number of reasons, the odds are she never will go back to work.


B-fly, you are absolutely right. And the photo of the 330 lb. woman - yikes!


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

I don't think she loves you, if she did she would try to make you happy. I think the low libido is sometime used as an excuse, unless she has seen a doctor, and has tried to fix it. Does she still hug and kiss you? Does she hold you and tells you that she loves you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pink_lady (Dec 1, 2012)

"I can tell you that she wishes to be pursued. My problem is that I have lost a certain amount of respect for her after all that has happened in our relationship. In order for me to want to pursue her, she has to also want to make an effort to save her marriage. That starts with communication and right now that communication is one way."

God, can I relate to this. Sounds exactly like my husband. He wanted to be pursued too, all the time. But he did not want to make any effort for me whatsoever.

These people want a parent, not a spouse. They felt they didn't get what they were supposed to from their Mom/Dad and they try to shove us into that role. They feel they should be accepted and loved EXACTLY as they are, NO MATTER how they act toward you or what they do, or don't do.

They won't talk about their needs, they prefer not to be bothered with ours.

I'm very sorry you're in this situation, OP. I can't be very optimistic for your marriage, from what you've written. 

Agree 100% with previous posters that 1)you should give your wife an allowance every month (maybe in a separate account, whatever works best) and once that's gone, it's gone.

2) She failed the teacher test. You do realize that this type of personality will deliberately sabotage their own efforts to keep their spouse or other P-A target from getting something they want?

I would not assume she will ever become a teacher, UNTIL she HAS to. Then I imagine she'll magically become much more competent.

My husband refused to work or really look for a job for a year and 4 months. He supposedly applied to hundreds of places, but no one would 'give him a break'. Guess how long it took him to get a job once the unemployment ran out, I was in my new apartment, and his parents said no to supporting him? A few days. Boom.

Your wife may have depression and other personality issues left over from her childhood. But, she is responsible for how she feels and for taking action to improve her life. If she refuses to do that, you cannot help her.

She is obviously not a stupid or incapable person, she knows what's going on. For a P-A person, playing dumb and helpless becomes a lifestyle. My bet is that forcing her to fend for herself (even if you have to pay alimony) may be the best thing you could do for her.

Oh, and yes, there are women out there who will want to date you. Pumping up your alpha qualities (I've read MMSL and as a chick find it to be mostly on target) will help attract them.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> My bet is that being forced to fend for herself may be the best thing you could do for her.


I think the problem could be is she was forced to "fend for herself" as a child a.k.a never got to be one ...now in marriage she has reverted back into a child and the OP is more like her father she never had.He "takes care of her"Including her sort of "rebellion" type dynamic with him and disenterest in a sexual relationship with him.

And his reaction honestly?Is like a parent /child relationship .Hes the dad she is the little girl.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

old timer said:


> 330 lbs?
> 
> Jeezus, really?
> 
> ...


Am I afraid of her? lol Is that a serious question?


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

So, is the general consensus on this thread that the OP should do a 180?

At the least, it seems he should:

Give her one last shot at passing her teaching exam, then cut off any more money for school.

Open a new checking account and do not allow her access to it. Don't even tell her what bank it's at (have them send you electronic statements). 

Cancel all of your credit cards. Set up a new one in your name only. 

Give her a pre-paid check card that has her allowance for the week. If she runs though the money and says "there's no money to feed the kids," take the kids out to eat (and leave her at home).

Quit getting upset at her and letting her pull your strings. 

You can look up the 180 on this site. It's pretty drastic, but you seem to be in a drastic situation.

I would also recommend these books (in this order) "No More Mr Nice Guy" by Glover, "Way of the Superior Man" by Deida, and "Married Man Sex Life Primer" by Althol Kay.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

I think even how she sort of "sneaks off" with the girls to go spend the check she got..and how she "pouts" or looks like a deer in the lights when you get upset with her even if you don't yell then "sneaks off" to go get ice cream all of that sounds very very child like to me.


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## pink_lady (Dec 1, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> I think the problem could be is she was forced to "fend for herself" as a child a.k.a never got to be one ...now in marriage she has reverted back into a child and the OP is more like her father she never had.He "takes care of her"Including her sort of "rebellion" type dynamic with him and disenterest in a sexual relationship with him.
> 
> And his reaction honestly?Is like a parent /child relationship .Hes the dad she is the little girl.


:iagree:

I think she has manipulated him into that position, yes. Like others have said, she will keep the status quo going as long as possible.

It's not that she can't change, it's that she DOESN'T WANT TO.

That is a really important distinction for the spouse of this type of person to realize, at least it was for me.

The obesity is probably a result of depression meds and a desire to make herself sexually undesirable. But again...none of this means she is a helpless victim, or that her husband should be a martyr to the problems she does not wish to address.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> It's not that she can't change, it's that she DOESN'T WANT TO.


It could even be she is messed up in the head enough to not even fully understand what if anything she is doing that's wrong.I think he mentioned in counseling she "went through it" but everything sort of "bounced off of her".If she is seeing things through more like the eyes of a child it may not have a lot to do with doesn't "want to" but just doesn't "get it".She seems more "fearful if anything more than stubborn..Or lets say a nice combination of that..Stubborness due to fear...She needs IMHO IC more so than MC...

I don't think she has worked through the trauma of her upbringing(come to terms) let alone being raped as a teenager..I doubt a 180 would get the kind of "results" with her you would with someone who is "mature" just being self centered and manipulative.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

old timer said:


> Asking again, OP:
> 
> Have you ever read MMSL Primer?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not yet. Halfway through No More Mr. Nice Guy. I have Married Man Sex Life Primer sitting in front of me. That's next. Looking forward to it.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Lyris said:


> I don't understand your wife and I'm glad you're making plans to get out.


Yeah ... I don't understand her either. Most people seem to think I'm a pretty smart guy ... at least in my career ... and she is a complete riddle to me.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Blue Firefly said:


> Huge red flag here. Even if she was as tall as 5-10, she would still be carrying around over 150 pounds of extra weight.
> 
> Having had relatives in this position, IMHO this causes all kinds of other problems. From depression to don't-give-a-damn-itis to a live-for-today attitude. They figure things will only get worse (they see how many problems older heavy people have), and they no longer believe they can lose weight and avoid that eventual fate.
> 
> ...


I appreciate the suggestions. Health/fitness is a hobby of mine but I haven't been able to solve her problem; but it also starts with her wanting to solve the problem.

I have 3 guys that I work with who a couple of years ago weighed a around 1200 pounds between the 3 of them. They did accomplish weight loss through diet and exercise. One of them completed his second marathon yesterday and the other two ran the half-marathon. Very impressive. They are all on low carb ... and they also work out every day. The before and after pictures are stunning. They have motivated a lot of people within our company including our CEO (a woman) who has now lost 90 pounds in the last year.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

dallasapple said:


> It could even be she is messed up in the head enough to not even fully understand what if anything she is doing that's wrong.I think he mentioned in counseling she "went through it" but everything sort of "bounced off of her".If she is seeing things through more like the eyes of a child it may not have a lot to do with doesn't "want to" but just doesn't "get it".She seems more "fearful if anything more than stubborn..Or lets say a nice combination of that..Stubborness due to fear...She needs IMHO IC more so than MC...
> 
> I don't think she has worked through the trauma of her upbringing(come to terms) let alone being raped as a teenager..I doubt a 180 would get the kind of "results" with her you would with someone who is "mature" just being self centered and manipulative.


My father used to have a saying that, as a youth, I thought was awfully cruel: excuses are for losers.

As I got older, I realized he was exactly right. 

It's easy (even comfortable) to focus on the excuses. You're the victim; people feel sorry for you; you don't even have to try; it's OK to fail, because...you have an excuse.

Not allowing yourself the luxury of an excuse is hard, but sometimes its the only solution. It forces you to face reality; it forces you to think out of the box (if I can't do it this way, how else can I accomplish it); it removes your safety net; and it motivates you like nothing else. You focus on the now, not the past.

There's a point where allowing someone an excuse does damage to them. It would seem the OP's wife is long past that point.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Yeah ... I don't understand her either. Most people seem to think I'm a pretty smart guy ... at least in my career ... and she is a complete riddle to me.


You know how Alexander untied the Gordian Knot? He cut it in half.

Quit trying to fix her. Simply go where you are going to go. If she wants to come along with you (on your terms), let her come along. But, don't drag her behind you.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> ...it also starts with her wanting to solve the problem.


She doesn't have a problem--you do. As far as she is concerned, her life is good: she has money; food; clothing; and doesn't have to work. No problems, not even any challenges.

Some needs some problems. Figure out how to give her some.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Let your wife remain a riddle. She is responsible for figuring out her own issues. You have been cast in the father role, that's for sure. Granted, some people are better at managing money and formulating budgets, but your wife is playing dumb. Not to mention, she sounds quite child-like.

I can't live with a P-A. It drove me up the wall. I mean, how the heck can you have a marriage when one of the partners remains zoned out in laa-laa land? But darned it they don't wield a lot of control pulling their sheyot. I detached first, got my legal and financial ducks in a row, and then left.

Questions: Was your wife this way when you first started dating? Did she initiate in any way? Or was she always the one to follow your lead? Oh, and how much did she weigh before marriage?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> My father used to have a saying that, as a youth, I thought was awfully cruel: excuses are for losers.


I guess I draw a difference between reasons and "excuses".Of course its difficult to discern when dealing with mental illness.

Just look at someone for example with PTSD..who was in a war for example..is it an "excuse" they have flash blacks because of it?Is it an excuse they are low functioning because of it?Are they losers too?

Someone like your dad might be one to tell a person with clinical depression to "snap out of it you big loser" minutes before they blew their head off with a gun.Then talk about how weak and cowardly they were because they killed themselves.And yes that is cruel.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

2) The checkbook. What did you say about the checkbook? How will it be handled going forward?

*I told her she needs to come to me and if she needs a check then she needs to come to me. I will write then write the check.
*
3) Using my daughters as an intermediary. You are just a guilty, you gave your daughter the checkbook. If it is that important to keep finances in order and you know your wife has a problem, you should have said to your daughter, "please have your mother come up for the checkbook, I need to ask her something" Then you would not have been fuming 5 mins later when she left and did not tell you (I think intentional on her part)

*I agree that I have put up with that and it needs to end. I told her as much. I will not respond to my daughter other than to say to get her mother. In this specific case, I was just doing it out of convenience. It isn't that she is going to write the check necessarily, it is that she doesn't give me forewarning or even let me know it's been written. I was simply thinking, ok ... she'll write the check, I will be down in a minute to discuss it with her. I should have in fact used the opportunity and I didn't.*


4) I made it clear that this marriage wasn't worth saving if she wasn't going to lift a finger to try to save it.

The last one is a discussion we've never had before; the others are repeats.

You are one foot out the door and you have never had this discussion with her before?

*It is WAY more complicated than that. With the separation, reconciliation and all our talks since ... she knows our marriage is in deep trouble and I have even told her I have one foot out the door. We (meaning I) have talked about our marriage and its problems many times. What I haven't said ... and something that is really been building up ... is that my feeling is I am the only one making the effort and that is the point I wanted to make. I think she is waiting for me to fix it or just put up with it and not making an effort. I need her to realize that without her effort, I cannot fix it and I will not put up with it.*

I really do believe it is avoidance; she does not want to engage me in a debate. I hate that ... but that is the way she is.

Is it avoidance or she doesn't take you seriously? That's why some posters have said you come off like a doormat. You say something (like the checkbook) and she just ignores you and does as she pleases.

*I completely understand why people would think she doesn't take me seriously and I have thought about that. I really don't get that sense based on a lot of our interactions. For example, yesterday I walked into the kitchen, looked around (mostly smelled) and said "you really need to clean this kitchen". It was a disaster of her making. She laughed and said, yeah I know. I then said in my different tone of voice, no ... you need to clean the kitchen now, it is disgusting. Then she knew. She then got up and cleaned the kitchen. So, it depends on how I frame it ... is it a conversation ... or an expectation. I can read her responses and know how she is interpreting it. I had no doubt that when she said "she knew" that at some point the kitchen would be cleaned ... but it needed to be cleaned immediately and when I told her that, she responded.

I grew up in a household where my mother was dictator. It was a hostile environment ... very militaristic. You took my mom seriously because otherwise she would go ballistic and you could quite possibly get the heck beaten out of you. I struggle with that in my household because I married the opposite. I don't want to have to constantly stay on top of her to get things done but in order to get things done, that is exactly what I have to do. My preference would be to have a partnership with my wife, where we both have a similar drive and interest. My wife is quite comfortable living in filth and chaos. I am not like that at all. If I don't stay on top of her constantly and make my expectations very clear, she falls back to old patterns very easily. She is very social, a little ditsy and lazy. She makes a lot of weird assumptions about what I want; something my MC picked up on and we talked about. I don't think it is a case of not taking me seriously. I do think that I am somewhat at fault for not always making my expectations entirely clear and then reinforcing them over and over. I do that with my children but I never expected I would have to do that with my own wife. *

I am putting her through school to become a teacher. It was supposed to wrap up in May ... but she failed her student-teaching assignment (teacher didn't like her because she wasn't disciplined enough, go figure). She has to repeat the assignment this fall. She has the potential to start working in January in a sub role.

Does she realize that when she starts working, you are ready to bail? If so don't count on her actually working. Why follow through with that when it means her meal ticket walks.

*She knows it is a possibility. I do think she is taking her schooling and subsequent work seriously. She is putting her portfolio together and talking with the right people, trying to position herself to get a teaching job when she is done. I think she is genuinely excited about it. This is one thing that has impressed me. After years of sitting on her butt, she has really made an incredible effort going back to school. It is a concentrated program and it is full-time. I've never seen her work so hard on anything. So no, she is serious about this. She wants to be a teacher and not so that she has a job; she genuinely wants to do this and I have supported her in any way I can, regardless of our marital situation.*


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Theseus said:


> 1. So you two were playing poker, she raised the bet, you looked at your cards, and folded. Now it's your turn to raise the stake and call her bluff. Tell her something like: _"Fine. We stay married and share finances, but from now on we are just parents/roommates in an open marriage and I'm going to find some companionship."_
> 
> Of course, don't say something like that unless you are prepared to follow through with it!
> 
> ...


Well ... your right, I would have to be prepared to follow-through. What I'm not down with is an open marriage. I would be ok with a legal separation, still living under the same roof, and then going from there. The problem in both those scenarios is that it is very visible and confusing for my daughters. If I was dating after a divorce, I think I would wait a long time to make sure the person I was dating would be a positive influence on my girls and I would make sure I could prepare my girls for that eventuality.

On your second point,

I don't use the checkbook ... or I should say I do only very rarely when there is no other option. I also don't use a credit card. I actually had to get a new credit card for a trip to Cancun earlier this year (not safe to use debit card in Mexico) because my old one had been expired for a long time. I use a debit card for everything. My wife uses it far more often than I do but she actually does deal in things where a credit/debit card is not an option. You are right though, I need to get her to switch to cash. I have a few ideas on that.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

dallasapple said:


> I guess I draw a difference between reasons and "excuses".Of course its difficult to discern when dealing with mental illness.
> 
> Just look at someone for example with PTSD..who was in a war for example..is it an "excuse" they have flash blacks because of it?Is it an excuse they are low functioning because of it?Are they losers too?
> 
> Someone like your dad might be one to tell a person with clinical depression to "snap out of it you big loser" minutes before they blew their head off with a gun.Then talk about how weak and cowardly they were because they killed themselves.And yes that is cruel.


Ironically, as I posted on another thread, my dad saw extensive combat during WWII (as a field medic). The few stories he told made horror movies seem tame. He was well aware of the things war did to men's minds. He was also well aware when people were simply relying on excuses.

But, like you said, some people have a difficult time discerning the two. I don't believe my dad was one of them.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

A lot of very good points Prodigal. Thank you. I had never really considered the p-a angle before but if true, that explains some things. I have to think about that.

Yes, she hasn't worked in 10 years; she stopped working when my first daughter was born, who is now 11. Alimony is a big part of me wanting to put her through school. I mean, it isn't entirely selfish ... she wants to do this; it is exactly the motivation she needs to get herself back in the game; I want her to be happy; I also want to make sure she lands on her feet if our marriage doesn't work. I may not be in love with her ... but I do love her and care for her well being.

Your conversations with your ex sound exactly like how my conversations go.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Blue Firefly said:


> Ironically, as I posted on another thread, my dad saw extensive combat during WWII (as a field medic). The few stories he told made horror movies seem tame. He was well aware of the things war did to men's minds. He was also well aware when people were simply relying on excuses.
> 
> But, like you said, some people have a difficult time discerning the two. I don't believe my dad was one of them.


O.K great that he didn't(have trouble discerning)..my point was not all people are "making excuses' and they are just "losers" and I dont think anyone here is qualified to say this Op's wife is a loser making excuses.(which was implied)She could be but she could also be bonified mentally ill and not a loser using her traumas resulting in mental illness as an "excuse".


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> I may not be in love with her ... but I do love her and care for her well being.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Blue Firefly said:


> 1) What makes you think she will ever go to work once she gets her degree? She doesn't seem that motivated to do anything from what you say.
> 
> 2) What makes you think she'll even be able to find a job as a teacher? School districts have been cutting their budgets. There are a limited amount of job slots with multiple people applying for each one.
> 
> ...


Ha! My wife doesn't look quite like that. This woman is all torso. My wife is taller and 3 dimensional ... more fat in face, thighs, butt and arms and she looks like she's full term with twins, holding a lot of weight in her stomach area. "Missionary" position is an impossibility, lol.

1) No, she wants to do this, I have no doubt. She is doing all the things necessary to do it and it is out of self-motivation.

2) It will be difficult to find a full-time job as a teacher. She will more likely have to fill-in for awhile (pregnancy, etc.) That said, the program she is in has success in placing teachers. It is a well-respected program. We also live in the wealthiest county in Indiana and it is growing, unlike the rest of the state. It is a suburb of Indianapolis so it is families that move here. They continue to add new schools in my county so if there are opportunities, it will be where we live.

3) There is no doubt there are some people who hold a bias against obese people. She will undoubtedly encounter it. I would not be surprised if her latest student-teacher assignment was impacted by it based on the attitude of the teacher she was working with. She failed this last assignment but got rave reviews from her previous one. It will make it more difficult but I think if she talks with the right people, she can get it done. 

It is a thought that crossed my mind; how she will be perceived.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Ha! My wife doesn't look quite like that. This woman is all torso. My wife is taller and 3 dimensional ... more fat in face, thighs, butt and arms and she looks like she's full term with twins, holding a lot of weight in her stomach area. "Missionary" position is an impossibility, lol.
> 
> 1) No, she wants to do this, I have no doubt. She is doing all the things necessary to do it and it is out of self-motivation.
> 
> ...



I think its like 60% of Americans are overweight and of those 30% morbidly obese.Odds are the person in the position to hire her has their own weight issues themselves and yes can discriminate but just as likely to not because HEY they probably have a mother or a sister or a brother or a friend or even a child that much overweight.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

mablenc said:


> I don't think she loves you, if she did she would try to make you happy. I think the low libido is sometime used as an excuse, unless she has seen a doctor, and has tried to fix it. Does she still hug and kiss you? Does she hold you and tells you that she loves you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The question about whether she loves me ... I honestly don't know the answer to that. I think she does love me but like me, she may no longer be in love with me.

No, she has a low libido ... it isn't a new or recent phenomena. It has been that way pre-dating our marriage. She has talked to several doctors over the years about it, primarily how her medication may interfere with sex drive. Her weight may also be an influence. There are people with even more problems in their marriage that STILL have active sex lives. No, it is just the way she is.

Our problems have had an impact on our affection but that is mostly coming from me. Years of rejection and her "implosion" have made it difficult to be as affectionate with her as I used to be. For many years, we were so affectionate that other people would often comment. We were always far more affectionate with each other than other couples we associated with. That affection didn't translate into sex.

I have worked on trying to rebuild the affection since our reconciliation ... but there is still a divide.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> I think even how she sort of "sneaks off" with the girls to go spend the check she got..and how she "pouts" or looks like a deer in the lights when you get upset with her even if you don't yell then "sneaks off" to go get ice cream all of that sounds very very child like to me.


Yes ... childish ... I continue to see behaviors that remind me a lot of how my children behave.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Prodigal said:


> Questions: Was your wife this way when you first started dating? Did she initiate in any way? Or was she always the one to follow your lead? Oh, and how much did she weigh before marriage?


JustSome, you are being inundated with questions and information. So I just wanted to bring this to your attention again. I'd be interested in more background, if you don't mind sharing.

BTW, from my own experience, P-A's are generally perceived by other people as SO NICE. It's hard for anyone to believe that such a nice person could be so difficult to deal with behind closed doors. Also, I found the few P-A's I've dealt with to be quite charming ... in the beginning. Heck, after the second date I had with my husband, I was driving home (after spending the entire day at his house) thinking "What a NICE GUY." Yeah, very nice. Nice was how he was trained to behave. Anger was BAD. But darned if he didn't show he had one nasty angry side ... in a roundabout, I-didn't-do-anything sorta way.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

pink_lady said:


> "I can tell you that she wishes to be pursued. My problem is that I have lost a certain amount of respect for her after all that has happened in our relationship. In order for me to want to pursue her, she has to also want to make an effort to save her marriage. That starts with communication and right now that communication is one way."
> 
> God, can I relate to this. Sounds exactly like my husband. He wanted to be pursued too, all the time. But he did not want to make any effort for me whatsoever.
> 
> ...


Yes, Pink ... this resonates with me perfectly.

In fact, I remember her observing me one time with my daughters and I can't remember exactly what we were doing but she commented that she wanted me to be that way with her. Like I said, I don't remember what we were doing but I do remember thinking ... "I am your husband, I am not your father."

I often feel like having to play the father role with her. It is not what I want. I have daughters; I enjoy my relationship with them as their father ... but I want my wife to be my partner.

I have often thought it has something to do with the lack of parenting she had as a child and she's making up for it. That may be why she married me in the first place ... she saw someone who offered that. That's not what I wanted.

EDIT: I just thought of a situation sometime within the last two weeks. She had bought the old Little House on the Prairie series and she is watching it with my girls. I can't remember what it was exactly but there was something I wasn't happy with (happens all too often these days) and they were sitting in the living room snuggled up watching their program. I stopped by and said something to her ... and she responded ... "why are you looking at US that way?" I said ... "what do you mean US? I am looking at YOU that way, this has nothing to do with my daughters" She knew that.

She does this often ... lumping herself in with my daughters. Some of the conversations she brings up are not appropriate to bring up in front of the girls. She will even bring up a decision we have to make about the girls in front of the girls ... as if the girls themselves were one of us. She has no sense or boundary in that regards. That drives me nuts. It isn't healthy for our kids either and reduces their sense of stability in the home.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> I think the problem could be is she was forced to "fend for herself" as a child a.k.a never got to be one ...now in marriage she has reverted back into a child and the OP is more like her father she never had.He "takes care of her"Including her sort of "rebellion" type dynamic with him and disenterest in a sexual relationship with him.
> 
> And his reaction honestly?Is like a parent /child relationship .Hes the dad she is the little girl.


Yes, thought this often.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

pink_lady said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I think she has manipulated him into that position, yes. Like others have said, she will keep the status quo going as long as possible.
> 
> ...


I continue to be amazed at how accurate some of these replies are.

I have also often thought that she approaches problems as if she is a victim. 

She needs to be the one reading No More Mr. Nice Guy


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## DavidWYoung (Feb 3, 2012)

She sounds like she went to the OBAMA SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> It could even be she is messed up in the head enough to not even fully understand what if anything she is doing that's wrong.I think he mentioned in counseling she "went through it" but everything sort of "bounced off of her".If she is seeing things through more like the eyes of a child it may not have a lot to do with doesn't "want to" but just doesn't "get it".She seems more "fearful if anything more than stubborn..Or lets say a nice combination of that..Stubborness due to fear...She needs IMHO IC more so than MC...
> 
> I don't think she has worked through the trauma of her upbringing(come to terms) let alone being raped as a teenager..I doubt a 180 would get the kind of "results" with her you would with someone who is "mature" just being self centered and manipulative.


Wow ... I think you just described her better than I can.

Ok, so early on in our marriage she wanted me to go to marriage counseling. We were struggling. This was maybe 5 or 6 years into our marriage. She had been going through IC and her counselor wanted to bring me in for a marriage counseling session. After that session, the counselor took me aside and said, I don't think we'll need to continue to do this. I would like to see your wife individually for awhile but would you be available to come in if we get to that point? I said "absolutely, whatever it takes". The counselor at that point knew that the focus needed to be on my wife and dealing with a lot of anger issues she had with her parents. That the source of the problems in our marriage had more to do with that than anything else. My wife up to that point felt I was the problem.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Wow ... I think you just described her better than I can.
> 
> Ok, so early on in our marriage she wanted me to go to marriage counseling. We were struggling. This was maybe 5 or 6 years into our marriage. She had been going through IC and her counselor wanted to bring me in for a marriage counseling session. After that session, the counselor took me aside and said, I don't think we'll need to continue to do this. I would like to see your wife individually for awhile but would you be available to come in if we get to that point? I said "absolutely, whatever it takes". The counselor at that point knew that the focus needed to be on my wife and dealing with a lot of anger issues she had with her parents. That the source of the problems in our marriage had more to do with that than anything else. My wife up to that point felt I was the problem.


So what happened? Did she back out of IC counseling at some point?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Wow ... I think you just described her better than I can.


Discernment.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Prodigal said:


> Questions: Was your wife this way when you first started dating? Did she initiate in any way? Or was she always the one to follow your lead? Oh, and how much did she weigh before marriage?


Was she that way? I would say that she showed signs that she could be this way later in life. Of course, I didn't recognize that. She seemed much stronger when we first met. Of course, we met when she was 19 and I was 22.

She does not initiate very often in any aspect of life except for one: our children. She is very focused on our children. We both are but I think in part, she is determined to be the mother she never had. She is a competent person; it is usually only with me she seems helpless. I have observed this with some of her friends too. This is just like her own mom who is bright and competent - but so helpless and stupid around her own children and friends that it drives everybody nuts. 

She weighed 165 lbs when we married ... less when we started dating. She's around 5'9" So, she has always been overweight. I prefer thin women but I am also attracted to women with some weight on them - I suppose it is the mommy potential thing. I am definitely not attracted to women who are obese. So, over the course of our marriage she has roughly doubled her weight. It is somewhat genetic. Her dad is a large guy (she is larger). Her mom is in good shape but she also makes that a priority in her life. Her sister is overweight but in an attractive way and nowhere near her sister.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

dallasapple said:


> I think its like 60% of Americans are overweight and of those 30% morbidly obese.Odds are the person in the position to hire her has their own weight issues themselves and yes can discriminate but just as likely to not because HEY they probably have a mother or a sister or a brother or a friend or even a child that much overweight.


30% of Americans don't weight over TWICE as much as they are supposed to weight.

The odds are that the person hiring her will not have a weight problem anywhere near the one she also.

I've also read that overweight people are just as likely to discriminate against the overweight as anybody else (ironic, but true). So, she won't be able to count on the hiring manager having some sense of camaraderie with her because they are also fat.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

[QUOTE30% of Americans don't weight over TWICE as much as they are supposed to weight][/QUOTE]

No ..that't not what I said..I said 60% of Americans are considered "overweight" of that 30% are considered " morbidly obese" ..there is a difference.

I have no idea how you "translated" what I said into what you said I said..:scratchhead:


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> She's around 5'9"


5' 9" is tall for a woman.But still her "top weight" should be around 145/160..(fit).


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Prodigal said:


> JustSome, you are being inundated with questions and information. So I just wanted to bring this to your attention again. I'd be interested in more background, if you don't mind sharing.
> 
> BTW, from my own experience, P-A's are generally perceived by other people as SO NICE. It's hard for anyone to believe that such a nice person could be so difficult to deal with behind closed doors. Also, I found the few P-A's I've dealt with to be quite charming ... in the beginning. Heck, after the second date I had with my husband, I was driving home (after spending the entire day at his house) thinking "What a NICE GUY." Yeah, very nice. Nice was how he was trained to behave. Anger was BAD. But darned if he didn't show he had one nasty angry side ... in a roundabout, I-didn't-do-anything sorta way.


You know, I was thinking the opposite ... the P-A's I've met, mostly through work, are some of the nastiest people I've met. Yes, they seem very nice and can identify with you but then they do something that makes you realize how underhanded they are and you see them for what they are.

My wife IS one of the nicest people you would ever want to meet ... or that is how most people would interpret her. Great big laugh, always joking ... doesn't seem to have a mean bone in her body. She is well liked. Our marriage counselor had an observation that she tried to dig into without much success ... she said that my wife's persona seems contradictory. For example, she will talk about something difficult but at the same time she will laugh and make jokes as if nothing is serious. You can say something serious to her, something you think is important, and she will make a joke and laugh and try to dismiss it ... either that or she will feign ignorance. What is also interesting is if you "reach" her, that smile and joking will turn very quickly into tears. 

As far as P-A behavior, I have not thought much about the underhanded way that she may act out aggression ... but the more I think of it .... 

There are things she did during our separation, especially, that genuinely surprised me as vindictive and manipulative. I do feel that I was manipulated into reconciling in a very underhanded and quite brilliant fashion ... she pulled one over on me and I didn't see it coming. It definitely changed my opinion of her.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> So what happened? Did she back out of IC counseling at some point?


Well, she was in an out of counseling for years. She has not been to counseling though since our children were born.

Another thing to note. I am not a religious person and never have been even though my parents are very religious. My wife was raised in the Catholic church but was not religious when I married her. Shortly before we had children, she started attending church and eventually converted. After moving to Indiana, she got involved in a fundy church. Most of her friends are hard-core religious fundamentalists. I have to laugh because one time her and her friends tried to organize a family vacation weekend to the Creation Museum near Cincinnati. If you know me, that is just a complete joke ... I am a science guy all the way. The family she is best friends with just arranged a marriage for their oldest daughter for next month ... she was just introduced to the guy two weeks ago ... never been on a date, never kissed a guy ... completely old school marital arrangement. These are the people that talked my wife into homeschooling. They do not approve of the "loose morals" and "liberal perspective" that are "destroying" our children. That is not my view but that is the group she spent the majority of her time with. At some point, she was spending all her time with them ... whole weekends devoted to fellowship and bible study. While I'm friendly with this group I cannot relate to them ... they are extremists. I am not anti-religion but the extent of this WAS also a consideration for separation ... it just isn't my lifestyle.

I mention this because it coincided pretty closely with the ending of her own counseling.

Post separation, she is not nearly involved. In fact, I would say judgement was passed on her because of the separation.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

I had just received a comment on an older Facebook post from late February. It is about my daughter and it made me think of the discussion here and why this is so very important to me. I thought I'd share:

------------------
I'm thankful for a great evening with my daughter. I came home with a car full of groceries, she had just gotten back from a friends house and I was in a rush. The list: put groceries away, make dinner, do the dishes, clean the kitchen, make lunches, get things ready for the week and I had to get it done quick because I had some work to do for the office. She's only 11 and often I have to fight with her to help but not tonight. Without asking she helped me with the bags and putting the groceries away, I made a steak while she made a couple of things she had never made before without needing much help, I washed while she dried, I cleaned the kitchen while she put things away, we made lunches together ... totally in synch, not a single complaint. We talked and laughed the whole time. I have been working with her to get her to realize that if she gets her things done, she will have the time to do the things she wants. I guess the message is getting through. When we finished I told her how much I appreciated her help ... that she completely rocked it out. Of course, she wasn't going to acknowledge it so instead she turned away and just as she was turning away I could see her face light up with her beautiful smile. I love that moment. I gotta tell you, when she gets older and boys become part of the picture, that girl is going to melt some hearts with that smile 
----------------------

My separation was very difficult. The hardest thing about it was not being in my daughters lives on a daily basis. The decision to separate was only possible when I was convinced that it was healthier for them to see two happy parents instead of what our marriage had become. If you were in Indiana driving down the road two years ago January, looked over and saw a guy breaking down in his car ... that was probably me. Their well-being is incredibly important to me.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> O.K great that he didn't(have trouble discerning)..my point was not all people are "making excuses' and they are just "losers" and I dont think anyone here is qualified to say this Op's wife is a loser making excuses.(which was implied)She could be but she could also be bonified mentally ill and not a loser using her traumas resulting in mental illness as an "excuse".


I somehow missed this in the thread ...

To respond to this point, my wife doesn't make excuses for things based on things that happened in her childhood. She does make excuses ... I forgot, I didn't understand, I thought (wrongly), I assumed, etc. Now, these of course are sometimes legitimate reasons ... but she uses them far too often. She is a very disorganized person and her mind is just as disorganized. I am loathe to blame it on mental illness. 

I will say that if she is not on her medication, she goes bonkers ... I mean really scary. She can't keep it together. I think at this point if she went a month or so without her meds, she could be suicidal. There have been a couple of times that she did not renew her prescription and she asked me nearly in tears to go pick it up for her; she will tell me she is losing her mind.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

So last night I'm arranging a trip to North Carolina to see my folks in early July. Few days at their house and then we'll all head down to the beach for a few days. Remember the previous night I had told my wife that our marriage wasn't worth it if she wasn't going to lift a finger to save it. Well, after I talked to my dad about the trip, she said "hmmm, do I have plans for you" referring to our trip in an uncharacteristically alluring voice. Of course, she said it in front of the kids so I didn't ask her to expand on that but ... wth ... what's with the change ... and why wait until July?

In fact, she had me all to herself in Cancun in early January and we had incomplete sex once the whole time right when we got there because I wouldn't take no for an answer ... we had to stop because she was too sore, she said. Whatever. So now she has plans for me ... almost 3 months from now?


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Well ... big blow-up today. Told her I wanted a divorce. She sat there ... deer in headlights.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

SomeGuy, WHAT happened??? Big blowup? I assume you were the one blowing, since once again you received the standard deer-in-the-headlights response from wife.

What triggered this?


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Prodigal said:


> SomeGuy, WHAT happened??? Big blowup? I assume you were the one blowing, since once again you received the standard deer-in-the-headlights response from wife.
> 
> What triggered this?


Big Sigh

Again ... with the checkbook. Oldest daughter shows up with a field trip permission slip for one of her groups and needs a check. I didn't know anything about it. This one was tough but I decided a boundary means a boundary. I really lit into her, she told me she didn't understand why it mattered, I said it is because it is what I need. If you need a check then I need you to come talk to me personally and not send our daughter as a messenger. She said "no". I really blew up ... worse than I have in years ... I told her well then if you aren't willing to get off your fat, lazy a$$ to come have a conversation with me then it isn't getting done.

I then went to calm down.

I went back. Then I really laid it down for her. I covered pretty much everything and what it boils down to is that we do not have a normal adult relationship, a partnership. She wants me to guarantee her security but how can I do that when she disrespects, dismisses, or doesn't even give a crap about what I need or want. Every conversation we have is about a problem or what she needs or wants me to do or a decision to be made and she always does it in front of the children. She never comes to talk to me personally and to have an adult conversation about what she needs from me in our marriage. She NEVER asks me what I need or want and when I tell her what I want or need, she questions it and "ranks" its value. She doesn't even ask me how my day is or what I do. I gave her a list of things that I want or need that she entirely dismisses. Intimacy was one of them but I told her that I cannot be affectionate or intimate with a person who does not give a sh!t about what I want or need no matter how many times I express them. Affection would be a lot easier if I felt I had a relationship with a mature adult but that isn't what I have. At no time have you made any effort since our reconciliation to have a meaningful adult conversation. I talk to you like I'm your father because all you want is for me to solve all your problems and take care of you. I have daughters ... we have daughters ... and I want a WIFE who will be my partner in this family as we raise our children. THEY need a mom who is also a WIFE to her husband. I cannot fix this marriage by myself. Every meaningful conversation we have is initiated by me and you just sit there. I cannot be the only one putting all the effort into this. When I told you that you never lift a finger to save your marriage, I meant it and I need you to do that but you don't. You are just as happy to have things stay exactly like they are. I cannot do this anymore. I will be filing for a divorce.

... or something like that 

It was very stream of conscious and I was very angry and upset ... almost choked up. Completely unplanned but my frustration level is through the roof. I don't think that's everything I said but it is the gist of it.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

She sounds like a very wounded immature person. 
I think you have gone above and beyond to make this work.
Have you talked to a lawyer yet about alimony and child support? I know in most states they can't take more than 50% of someone salary for both total. 

Also it would be illegal for her to move to another state with your kids. Don't let her hold that over your head.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I know this is odd but are there any signs that she is cheating?


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

coffee4me said:


> JSGW - I'm sorry that is one of the saddest phrases I've ever heard. I know what its like to be in a sexless marriage but to add that phrase on top of it.


Yep ... it WAS really sad. We hadn't had sex for months before that and we haven't had sex since. I'm guessing based on our discussion tonight ... that we will never be having sex again. THAT is ok by me ... I won't be missing something I never had.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> She sounds like a very wounded immature person.
> I think you have gone above and beyond to make this work.
> Have you talked to a lawyer yet about alimony and child support? I know in most states they can't take more than 50% of someone salary for both total.
> 
> Also it would be illegal for her to move to another state with your kids. Don't let her hold that over your head.


I talked to a few divorce lawyers in the middle of our separation. She can move to Texas btw with the kids, it is not illegal unless I get a court order preventing her. If she moved without a court order then I would have to go through Texas to try to get my kids back and I'm told that is very difficult. I went through all of that with the last lawyer I saw and the one I trust the most. I have to file in order to get the court order. 

Now that being said, I was separated and living in an apartment at the time. I need to consult again to see if it makes a difference if we are living as a family under the same roof. It might.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

coffee4me said:


> And she just sat there? No words? complete shutdown?


Pretty much. She protested a little when I said she didn't care about what I want or need ... but then when I started going down a list she fell silent. She nodded once when I said that she never comes to me to talk about problems in our marriage. That was the extent of it.

An hour earlier she was making plans for our future ... sort of ... at the kitchen table with the kids.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> I know this is odd but are there any signs that she is cheating?


During our separation, yes. Not currently. That was a shocker. I nailed her on the attempt but I couldn't get her admission that anything actually happened. The evidence I have ... a secret email account, two dating web site accounts looking for christian men, secret facebook account. I broke in and took control of them. I only have circumstantial evidence that something happened. Odd behaviors towards the middle of our separation plus some email. It is enough for me to be almost sure but not enough to force a confession. She has admitted to everything except sex ... but you know.

I am convinced that nothing has happened since although she kept the account for 6 months after reconciliation. I'm in IT so I have her monitored once I realized what was going on.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

coffee4me said:


> What now? Are you just making your plans to leave?
> 
> Was your wife detatched like this when you seperated?


I am not sure what now; I have to think that through. I will not be leaving the house. I will file for divorce. Need to consult with my lawyer again. I still have to consider that she hasn't finished school ... but at least we aren't living in a pretend marriage anymore. That is now open. I will have to start planning.

Well, she responded similarly but ... I can't put my finger on what was different. She was very angry, afraid, hurt when I separated. All that said, looking back, I made the right decision.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

coffee4me said:


> It's just odd that she was curious about dating when you seperated. Then when you reconciled she puts no effort into the marriage.
> 
> I think if I had a seperation period and looked at dating sites that would have made me nervous (truly a strange process if you haven't done it in 25 years). Then if I reconciled I would have been motivated to change. If my spouse was upset and telling me that things weren't working I would be listening and discussing more proactively post reconcilitation---unless, I didn't care anymore.
> 
> I just find her deer in the head lights reaction odd after all the work to get back together.


I do too ... I just don't understand it. She has gone completely silent on me and is now in bed.

Earlier at the kitchen table, we were talking about plans post school. She said something that I responded to with something along the lines of yes, but we still need to work on us. I was vague but I said something along the lines of her figuring out what she wants. And then she said something referring to not having to worry about a secure future. I said, that is great, you can have that and it is a choice you can make ... and she really perked up and said REALLY? Cause I know what I want! ... and I continued with "but it is up to you to put the effort into it." She rolled her eyes.

This was all vague and in code because the kids were milling around the kitchen. I am sure they got the gist of it but I didn't want to go into too much detail. 

She wants me to promise her a secure future no matter what. She doesn't want to make an effort if she doesn't know what the result will be. That is how I'm reading it right now (as I write this, lol)


What do you think?


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

I had a thought ... is she doing a 180?

That would explain some things.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

OP - you've threatened Divorce.

You must be prepared to follow through. 

Under most circumstances, I hate to see anyone D. But now - if you're not prepared to file, IMO you'll end up with even less respect from her than you have now (if that's possible).

.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> What do you think?


Well, I always say if you don't like the answers, don't ask the questions. However, you have come here without being the least bit defensive. You really want some support and advice. We're just a bunch of people out in cyberspace. Nevertheless, I care what happens to you, as I believe other folks do who have responded to your situation.

To begin with, get the heck back on your side of the street. Don't try to figure out what she is up to. She has you dancing to her tune. And her tune is NUTS. If this woman isn't the poster child for passive aggressives, I don't know who is! Dang, she is just jerking your chain like no tomorrow.

See an attorney ASAP. Get an order that prohibits her from taking the children out of state. Period. That is your first order of business.

To heck with her nonsense. From what you've reported, this woman has taken up with a cult of radical fundamentalists who had her brainwashed, messed around with your finances, disrespected your roles as head of the household and her husband, and gorged herself into obesity.

Enough with this lunacy. Focus on yourself and your children. Get fighting mad. Stay in that mode. It will keep you focused on what you need to do so you can keep your children nearby.

Your loon of a wife just tossed you out some bait by hinting that there was hope of a future. Frankly, your wife sounds like a total nut job to me. Granted, I haven't heard her side of the story, but I'm going on what you are saying.

Have an action plan in place tomorrow, with the first order of business being to have an appointment with an attorney. A good attorney will do whatever is necessary to protect your assets. No, it won't be cheap or easy.

But you don't have a marriage. It sounds more like an incarceration. Pull the plug. Come here and vent. But get the P-A out of your life. I lived with one for years. It was baffling, frustrating, and - in the end - a complete waste of my precious time.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> She wants me to promise her a secure future no matter what.


When I started to pull away from my wife and become more independent, she immediately started saying "you know I'll never leave you," and tried to get me to make the same verbal commitment to her.

Had I done that, it would have gone back to no sex and just two people sharing the same house.

It was only after I let her know that I could live without her, and that if things didn't change I would be living without her that her attitude changed and she started taking improving our marriage seriously.

I hated having to use a sledge hammer (and that's what it felt like), but looking back it was the only thing that would have worked.

You cannot, under any circumstances, promise her a secure future. You have to do just the opposite. Make sure she understands that if she is willing to work to improve your marriage, she will have a MORE SECURE future (not perfectly/take-it-for-granted secure, but more secure). If she doesn't she will have a less secure future--a less secure future without you.


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## daffodilly (Oct 3, 2011)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> I still have to consider that she hasn't finished school ...


Why is this for your consideration? If you do separate and D, I see her education as _her_ problem. But I could be ignorant about the law....would you be put on the hook for paying for her education? Or can she just receive alimony and let her figure out what to do with it? Don't see why she should have her cake and eat it too.

And I agree with the poster that said get a lawyer ASAP and obtain a court order that she cannot remove the children from the state.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

daffodilly said:


> Why is this for your consideration? If you do separate and D, I see her education as _her_ problem. But I could be ignorant about the law....would you be put on the hook for paying for her education? Or can she just receive alimony and let her figure out what to do with it? Don't see why she should have her cake and eat it too.
> 
> And I agree with the poster that said get a lawyer ASAP and obtain a court order that she cannot remove the children from the state.


I agree with daffodilly. 

At this point, you should let her problems be her problems.

She's not lifting a finger--literally even a finger--to fix any problems. You should not be shouldering the responsibility of fixing your problems and her problems.

Besides, this serves as another security wake up call. If she isn't going to help save the marriage, then she won't even have the security of being able to finish her schooling with your help. 

The quicker you knock her off her security stand, the quicker she will come to her senses. Look at the school thing as an early opportunity to open her eyes. Let her get a taste of what no security means.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

I agree with everyone else, JSGW. I hoped that once you set boundaries, she would realize that you were serious and then try to be a real partner in your marriage, but you said you don't love her anymore, so I would file and get on with your life.

This is an emotional time, so prepare carefully by talking to a lawyer and being aware of your options. I'm glad you know that you should not leave your house.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I have to agree; she sounds like a nutjob. I have noticed that when women are married to men who behave this way they eventually get mad, even enraged at the spouse's behavior. 
When men are married to women like this they are confused and I think feel sorry for them. 
I'm sorry that she was raped and that she had bad parents. Read my story if you want. I went through all that I don't use it as an excuse for anything! 
She is floating through life trying to get as much as she can for as little effort as possible. 
Some people use their pasts to justify their laziness. I'm not buying it. 

I literally can't believe she would be allowed to move out of state. In my state if you file for divorce neither parent can take the kids out of the county without the other's permission for any reason.
As it is now I can't leave the state with my d without informing him, even if we just cross the state line for an hour. 
Find out what happens once you file. There is no reason for her to be able to uproot your children, that isn't in their best interest.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Thank you for all the responses and feedback. I truly appreciate it. 

I'm at work right now under a pretty stressful project so I'll respond a little later. I've checked in from time to time but I need to put some thought into my responses.

Someone commented to me how much weight I've lost. Man, that was hard to hear. I have probably lost 12-15 lbs of weight. I've worked out for years but have been very inconsistent since my reconciliation. I'm not eating and most of the weight I've lost is muscle. A year and a half ago I was very "buff". I knew it but to hear it bothers me. It is all stress, not eating enough, not sleeping enough. I have to get back to focusing on me and taking care of myself. I do think I will come out of this stronger mentally and emotionally than I have ever been even if it will take me awhile to get back physically. If there is a silver lining, I will come out of this a better person and hopefully that will lead to healthier relationships in the future.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Guy, keep us posted on developments. I know this is an extremely stressful time for you. The breakdown of a marriage, regardless of how bad, is a hard storm to weather.

You will get support on TAM. Just let us know how you are doing. It's only cyberspace, but at least you have folks here who care about what is going on with you during this very painful process.


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