# Head is spinning...Need Advice



## dave101 (Sep 17, 2016)

Hi, 
I am 58 years old... married to the woman of my dreams for the last 30 years. Over the last 15 years there has been a steady erosion of affection in our relationship with periods of great times interspersed with dry spells of her practically ignoring me or even moving out of the bedroom for 2-4 weeks. She was a victim of sexual abuse from the age of 7. I know that trust issues/jealousy have always been there. I work with many women and have female friends with a very strict line. Again, I love my wife and do not wish to hurt her. We have been to counseling many times usually with temporary improvement in the level of holding hands/touch/hugs/kissing/sex. These physical things are important to me. They make me feel closer to her. 
She has also been doing her own counselling over her childhood. She also has a network of friends (some male btw) through her church that support her.

Over the years she has gradually made one demand after another from me to change my behavior... call or text her more frequently/ let her know where I am when I am away from work-home/ tell her who I have been talking to and what about...etc. The demands are always accompanied with a withholding of all those physical affections until I comply. I have always given in, in order to keep the peace although I have always resented being scrutinized and untrusted to that degree.
The last straw came Tuesday when she told me that she would no longer tolerate any female friends...that I would now be allowed to talk/text only to men and there would be no touch/hug/kiss/sex until I comply.

I am sick to my stomach...I love my wife and get where her insecurities started but I feel it is unreasonable to stop communication with all my friends who happen to have ovaries. And I am tired of being extorted to change who I am over and over. I don't want a divorce...I don't want to live in a sterile home either...I don't want to give up meaningful platonic relationships either. And I don't know what is the next demand even if I were to give in again. In her mind...if she thinks it is wrong... it is, regardless of other opinions. She says she is doing these things to protect herself and that my behavior hurts her. 

Basically, I don't know what the next move should be...my head is spinning. Any thoughts or input will be appreciated. Thanks


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

My normal response would be to assuage her feelings.....do as she asks.

She is apprehensive and uncomfortable, regardless of whether you are crossing marital borders, or not. A good husband would make his wife comfortable.....but not at ANY cost.

Sounds like her gut is telling her that something is wrong. 

Is there anything going on? Ask her why she doubts your love and fidelity. Stay true to her and yourself.

If you are faithful, cut way back on contact with the opposite gender. But do not ruin friendships.

On the other hand, her withholding love, affection and sex is very controlling.

I would tell her that you WILL comply with HER wishes.

I would also tell her that you are cutting HER off from all affection and intimacy.

Tell her that your love for her is dwindling.

Be calm and neutral when you tell her this. Remain so, as long as necessary.

She literally has you by the ba!!s. Remove her hands and put them in cold water.

Within 2 months she will bend........ if she loves you. If she does not....... your' marriage is doomed.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

You have two choices:

1. Leave.

2. Call her b.s. while being prepared to live without the affection.

She is destabilizing the relationship and telling you she is doing so. Her problem (and yours) is she is making it into a power struggle.

"I am not okay with emotional blackmail." Then walk away.

Remember that statement.

When someone wants to play unwanted tug of war, sometimes the best thing you can do is to drop the rope.

She is used to you caving. Show her that you will not be subject to those whims anymore.

I promise you she will not like this. You have to retrain her on how you will allow yourself to be treated. After years of capitulation, this will not be easy.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> When someone wants to play unwanted tug of war, sometimes the best thing you can do is to drop the rope.


I really, really like this statement... there are so many places in life that this applies.

Puts all the choice in one neat "self" basket, not giving away power to others to decide for you.

Sweet, FSJ...


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Read up. You need this badly!!!!!

http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LE..._Guy.pdf/RK=0/RS=T0ONll6Gu301mUsz1yZaYNMmcGY-

Never be a doormat to anyone.

The woman if your teams as long as everything is on her terms. Why?


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Well, I have to ask the first big questions. None of what she is doing is right and I agree it is emotional black mail. Still, you gave very little actual marital history except the cover contracts and sexual blackmail.

Have you ever cheated or been caught being inappropriate with someone else?
Has she done the same?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Why is she so uncomfortable with these female friends, which you seem to have a lot of?

Are you OK with her having a bunch of men friends?

Seems to me that men who come to TAM complaining that their wives have a ton of male friends are told it's not ok.

Has she expressed discomort at these friends before? What do you call "strict boundaries"?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

dave101, welcome aboard!

You probably already know this, you are a Secondary Survivor of child sexual abuse. Your wife is the Survivor (though I do much prefer the word Victim). Family and other close loved ones are Secondaries because their lives are greatly impacted by the abuse as well.

Your wife learned about sex and sexuality at a very young age without a normal context or adult body. She thus learned a lot of dysfunctional attitudes and behaviors around sex and sexuality. 

It is not ok, nor is it normal, to emotionally blackmail someone over sex within a marriage! You should not have ever tolerated this. I think perhaps the suggestion you are a Nice Guy per Dr. Glover may be correct. Nice Guys are known to pair up with women who are child sex abuse victims. It is a perfect storm really. Yes, I am one of those guys, too.

Your wife does not understand your sexuality in a normal way most likely. My wife said to me, after 30 yrs of marriage btw, that she thought sex for a man was just the biological need to "spurt it out". And that is a quote. If your wife thinks likewise, to her sex is something she does for you because it is required in order for her to get something non-sexual in return. It gets her a husband and all the benefits she values from being married.

She may not be able to understand sexuality normally ever, given her age at this point. She may be able to moderate her beliefs a bit. Hopefully she has been working on that in her therapy. Still she may always look at sex as something akin to cooking you a nice meal, which she will do voluntarily to please you but she herself doesn't really get much pleasure from it.

Anyhow, all that is some background on how and why she could withhold sex as blackmail. You would never do that because from your perspective sex is fun and is emotionally bonding, and you would not want to do something hurtful to her. Some of your anguish may be over the "why" she is capable of doing this, and whether she really does love you. Emotional blackmail is not a loving thing to do. To her, though, it may not be emotional blackmail but more of a "if you don't take out the trash I won't wash the dishes" kind of bargaining.

This mess with wanting you to cut off all contact with other women is unacceptable, and you should never put up with the unacceptable. Now I am assuming there is nothing in any way wonky with your relationships with women and that there is no history of you having affairs.

Your wife's ultimatum reads to me as if she is using her CSA (child sex abuse) filters to process information. Maybe she read an article or a friend told her there should be no opposite sex friends. In any case, she is possibly feeling a bit old and unattractive. She must be in her 50's at this point, so post menopausal too probably. Since she may believe that sex is what makes a woman of value to a man, she may worry that you'll simply trade her in for a younger sexier woman. CSA victims are taught that their body is what makes them wanted. As teens they may be promiscuous, which garners them popularity and possibly status. So you can see how this indicates a belief and fear that all they are valued for is their body. I've known women who are very insecure in relationships because they think any attractive woman is a real threat.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I think it's time to draw a line and tell her no. If she can't be a wife, then you'll have friends of whatever gender you wish. You are able to keep good boundaries, so this isn't a problem. Frankly, although you love your wife and don't want to divorce her, that may well be the best thing to do. Reclaim your life, before she destroys it. At least be a healthy role model for a normally functioning sexual person - she may learn from it, which is better than letting her draw you into her dysfunction.

I will go so far as to say she is irretrievably damaged, and would be better off alone to focus on working on her issues, if she can.


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## dave101 (Sep 17, 2016)

SunC...thanks for the input.


I have many acquaintances, few serious friends...less than 10 real friends of whom 3 are female. I draw the line at having coffee or a drink together to discuss life in general. The women are truly like the sisters I never had and give me a female perspective that no man has been able to. I wouldn't want to put them in that position. We have known each other for years through thick and thin and I would feel like a real **** to have to tell them that I can't communicate the way we always have. Oddly, I have always felt that if I were to cheat...it wouldn't be with one of the friends. I confess I have lied a few times over the years about talking to one of my friends...The price of honesty for me has always been three weeks in the cooler with no affection of any kind. 

It wasn't always this way with us...but ever since she started going to recovery groups and "finding herself"...it has been downhill.


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## dave101 (Sep 17, 2016)

Farside...
thanks for the input. I like the phrase "emotional blackmail"... and have even said this to her, but she denies it and says she is only protecting herself from the hurt I cause her by associating with any other women friends.
Part of my concern is that there has always been something in the way of her loving "normally"... a few months ago, back when we were still being intimate, she said she wants me to ask her for sex the day before we have it. I complained, saying that it felt like I was making an appointment with the dentist, and it kills all spontaneity, but she insisted that it makes her feel more respected if I ask the day before. Anyway, I feel like there is always a new hurdle to jump over. Maybe her way of never having to confront the underlying issues


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## dave101 (Sep 17, 2016)

Philly...

As far as the marital history...we married and had 10 awesome years which she now states were faked just for me...that she has always been unhappy and has always felt that she was just doing what I wanted for my benefit, but not hers. If true, she was a great actress, but I suspect more so that as she started down the path of reconciling wthathat her dad and brothers did to her for years, that a lot of the negatives about sex started to surface and flourish...


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## dave101 (Sep 17, 2016)

lifeistoo....
thanks for the input...
let me be clear, I do not have a bunch of female friends. I have 3 or so that I would put in that category. I work with 16 women in my office but that is all business. As for her, I know she has one (married) guy friend whom she visits. She says his wife is always there... he is an amateur marriage counselor at her church. I know him and don't think he is a bad guy... I have no problem with her talking to him. She doesn't see this as the "same thing"
My boundaries are simple... talking ok, email ok, texting ok (within reason), coffee/drink in public ok, hug ok, and that is it.


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## dave101 (Sep 17, 2016)

Thor, 
Thanks for the great response...I have to tell you that you hit several nails on the head... I choked up while reading. it is sooo true. Especially "Some of your anguish may be over the "why" she is capable of doing this, and whether she really does love you." That is exactly what I feel. I just don't understand how she can do laundry, make dinner and clean house happily but sexual stuff is now a chore. And everything must be just right, or it doesn't happen. Nothing like what we had our first ten years. I feel cheated... like I went to bed with a Ferrari in the driveway and woke up to a Ford escort. And I try to be sensitive to the abuse past, and I love her very much, but I almost feel I am enabling/prolonging the situation when I give in or tolerate the lack of affection


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

dave101 said:


> Farside...
> thanks for the input. I like the phrase "emotional blackmail"... and have even said this to her, but she denies it and says she is only protecting herself from the hurt I cause her by associating with any other women friends.
> Part of my concern is that there has always been something in the way of her loving "normally"... a few months ago, back when we were still being intimate, she said she wants me to ask her for sex the day before we have it. I complained, saying that it felt like I was making an appointment with the dentist, and it kills all spontaneity, but she insisted that it makes her feel more respected if I ask the day before. Anyway, I feel like there is always a new hurdle to jump over. Maybe her way of never having to confront the underlying issues


That is a fair request from her. It may kill the spontaneity, but...too bad. Read up on responsive desire.

She is more than welcome to draw whatever boundaries she chooses. However, you can simply say "okay" and drop the rope.

"Wife, when you are ready to discuss the actual problems, rather than finding ways to make you feel better that don't actually make you feel better, I am ready to listen. Until then, we will have to agree to disagree."


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

dave101 said:


> Philly...
> no...I haven't "cheated" and to my knowledge, she hasn't either...
> As far as the marital history...we married and had 10 awesome years which she now states were faked just for me...that she has always been unhappy and has always felt that she was just doing what I wanted for my benefit, but not hers. If true, she was a great actress, but I suspect more so that as she started down the path of reconciling wthathat her dad and brothers did to her for years, that a lot of the negatives about sex started to surface and flourish...
> 
> as far as inappropriate...I went for a walk in the local park with one of my friends, even admitted it to her... I didn't think that was bad, but I am still hearing about it


If this is actually true, what are you fighting for? 

It seems pretty clear that she thinks controlling the marriage will assuage her anxiety. Most controlling people believe that...until they control it...then there will be something else to control.

Practice telling her "no". If she wants to push the power struggle, drop the rope.


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## dave101 (Sep 17, 2016)

Farside...Thanks for the response.

I suspect that a lot of the control stuff is a reaction/overreaction to the lack of control during the abuse. The interesting thing is that she wasn't anything like this when we met and for the first ten years. A marriage counselor told me that the new behavior is a sign that the repressed pain is surfacing. He sees this as a positive... but then again, he isn't in my shoes. I am learning, like a lab rat, to avoid painful stimuli...just need to draw a line before I lose myself in the process


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Dave, your wife sounds a lot like mine in many ways. This is who your wife is, and she isn't changing. Control is a big thing with CSA victims. Control over sex is also important to them.

Have you noticed your wife turning her head away from you during sex? Does she hide her body from you, such as not letting you watch her undress to get in the shower, etc? Was she towards one extreme or the other as a teen with sex, either prudish or promiscuous? Does she get uncomfortable with off-color jokes or suggestive comments?

I bet there are a lot of things you can point to which are abnormal about sex with her. Wanting to get a day advance notice to have sex with you is one such thing.

One one hand you can look at her issues as the thing which is quirky about her. Each of us has quirks, and this is hers. It isn't ideal to have to make a request 24 hours in advance, but it isn't about you it is about the abuse.

On the other hand, she is doing a number of things which are not acceptable. The blackmail and using sex as a tool of manipulation are just not ok. In her mind it is ok because of her warped and damaged views about sex. But it isn't ok.

Even though she may not intend to harm you, it is hurtful. And that isn't ok. Secondaries do have to learn some modifications of their behavior. My wife doesn't like kissing. She also doesn't like to be naked outside of the bathroom. Those are things I had to learn to accept as her quirks once I finally learned of her CSA. For a lot of years those seemed like really personal rejections, but they weren't. They were her CSA side effects.

You may be able to learn to deal with some of her quirks. But you have to establish boundaries against unacceptable behavior. Withholding sex as punishment and manipulation are, in my book, unacceptable behavior. When a woman has experienced CSA as a young child and has significant issues this much later in her life, I am not optimistic. You certainly cannot nudge her gently into different behavior. She needs good and intensive therapy to overcome these issues, if she is capable. Many women are not willing to face those demons to attempt healing.

A lot of men end up leaving their wives over these issues. Know that you don't have to hate her for these things in order to find them beyond your ability to remain in the marriage with her.

Good luck.


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## dave101 (Sep 17, 2016)

Thanks Thor

Agree that withholding sex and affection as punishment/manipulation are unacceptable... but she always says it's not punishment but rather that she is protecting herself from pain and that she is numb emotionally at those times. We are currently in another such period with no end in sight. I am laden with guilt over not being able to keep her happy and also resentful that my needs are always placed second. The stuff we are talking about is, to me , trivial... as an example, one of my female friends texted me today that her son had gotten a helmet to the back in a football game and she wanted advice as she was driving to the hospital. I am a doc, and I felt like **** because I wanted to help her out but knew that wife would stroke out about that so I had to hide and text her back. Pissed at myself and looking for my testicles as we speak. Yet, if it were her friend, male or female, she would be handing me the phone to call her as she has done many times before.

I am a decent guy...not a saint and I can't believe I am looking at ending a 30 year marriage over something like this...but I can't spend the rest of my life waiting for a hug because she doesn't accept my behavior. I could understand if I were a drug addict or molester or something else bad


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## dave101 (Sep 17, 2016)

Thor,

Oh yeah, 
closes eyes during sex. used to dress provocatively, not anymore. got pregnant at 17 with first boyfriend whom she married and later divorced... and she hates steamy scenes in movies. Often comments that someone's skirt is too short, boobs are hanging out etc,. How did you know??


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## DWH (Sep 19, 2016)

dave101 said:


> Thor,
> 
> Oh yeah,
> closes eyes during sex. used to dress provocatively, not anymore. got pregnant at 16 with first boyfriend whom she married and later divorced... and she hates steamy scenes in movies. Often comments that someone's skirt is too short, boobs are hanging out etc,. How did you know??


Because Thor is married to a SAS and he is a secondary survivor. As am I.
This is typical CSA behavior.

go to supportforpartners.org. You need to register. You may find help there.
Depending on how bad the abuse was will determine how bad her symptoms are.

It's probably not going to improve too much.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

You can feel sorry for her, but that does not mean you have to martyr yourself for her irrational behavior. Increments of giving in over the years taught her that if she were to show negative reinforcement, she can alter your behavior. Sex and affection are tools she uses to gain control over what she can because she lacked control in the past. She will be hyper-sensitive to perceive threats to her stability. Things will be magnified and things like spending time with anyone with ovaries, she will see things that are not there.

It is emotional abuse that what she is doing to you. People that are often abuse, will become abusers themselves in some form or another.

I think you first have to be realistic and know that if she does improve, it may be only slightly. There is transference of some of her emotions from her abusers onto you. You have proven to be safer so she feels safe to enact forms of punishment.

I agree with Farside, when someone behaves irrationally from a moderate to a severe degree, detach, and do not give into their irrational behavior, it only reinforces it.


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## DWH (Sep 19, 2016)

FWIW - One of the main adult manifestations of a spouse with CSA is infidelity.
One of the symptoms of infidelity is projecting it back onto the betrayed accusing them of it.
Check your phone bills and her electronics. SHE may be cheating.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

dave101 said:


> I have been faithful though at times it has been hard to resist.





> The women are truly like the sisters


I have a hard time reconciling these two statements.

How would you feel if your wife had "brothers" she went out to drinks or lunch with and sometimes it was hard to resist sexing them?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

dave101 said:


> SunC...thanks for the input.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## DWH (Sep 19, 2016)

It wasn't always this way with us...but ever since she started going to recovery groups and "finding herself"...it has been downhill.

If this is the case then she may be "cracking"... unearthing the deep dark secrets she has buried for decades. When my W cracked, she caved into herself ( i watched her physically shrink) and then vomited (filled a huge pasta pot) then slept for 18 hours. Then cried for a couple days saying "why did they treat me this way?" over and over. 

Its been a year since and recovery is slow but steady. Mind you her abuse was light... she 8, brother 13 "experimenting". Mother verbally, emotionally abusive. father abandoning her when the mom would flip out.

If she is indeed beginning to crack... watch out.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Interesting Sun pointed out the first thing I noticed. You lied about things concerning these "over the years" friends. While her CSA is an issue, lying about the opposite sex is NEVER GOOD. Yes, you added a bunch of other stuff, but the little innocuous sentence speaks volumes to me. Lying in a normal relationship "over the years" is bad. Guess what doing this type of lying does in a relationship with a CSA survivor? 

Sorry, if you have to lie about it, you aren't just friends. IMO.


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## DWH (Sep 19, 2016)

OK I have to tell you that mine had a physical affair in year 7, an emotional affair with a workmate (gay) for 12 years in year 14 and last year, year 32 started becoming close with a old workmate via phone and text. - yea I know where's the 2x4

Thanks to TAM I shut that down hard. We started MC, both of us IC and last week I created these 2 boundaries:

NO OSF
NO LYING.

We are getting there. If she can hold to these two things, I think we can get past year 33.
As in my username, I am Done With Hurting. Foot is down hard and will stay there.

My advice is to dump your OSF. Sorry.
Or don't be married to this woman.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

DWH said:


> FWIW - One of the main adult manifestations of a spouse with CSA is infidelity.
> One of the symptoms of infidelity is projecting it back onto the betrayed accusing them of it.
> Check your phone bills and her electronics. SHE may be cheating.


yes I agree

I was going to say it sounds like she projecting.

going to support group to find herself?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

dave101 said:


> SunC...thanks for the input.
> 
> 
> I have been faithful though at times it has been hard to resist. I have many acquaintances, few serious friends...less than 10 real friends of whom 3 are female. I draw the line at having coffee or a drink together to discuss life in general. The women are truly like the sisters I never had and give me a female perspective that no man has been able to. I wouldn't want to put them in that position. We have known each other for years through thick and thin and I would feel like a real **** to have to tell them that I can't communicate the way we always have. Oddly, I have always felt that if I were to cheat...it wouldn't be with one of the friends. I confess I have lied a few times over the years about talking to one of my friends...The price of honesty for me has always been three weeks in the cooler with no affection of any kind.
> ...


Is your wife not friends w/ any of these women?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

dave101 said:


> Thanks Thor
> I am a decent guy...not a saint and I can't believe I am looking at ending a 30 year marriage over something like this...but I can't spend the rest of my life waiting for a hug because she doesn't accept my behavior. I could understand if I were a drug addict or molester or something else bad


Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, I was out on the road for a couple of days.

Here's the thing, _in her mind you *are* an abuser_. She may or may not recognize it consciously, but there's a good chance it is happening in at least her emotional brain. She was abused by an adult male of some family connection, who was also in a position of authority and power. When you married her, you became a married adult male with a family connection to her and in a position of power and authority (as a respected adult within the overall family). This is a very common dynamic, btw, with CSA victims.

Like I said before it has nothing to do with you, yet to you it does feel very personal. I know of many marriages which eventually ended because of this dynamic, including mine.

I also know women who have worked hard in therapy (for years some of them) to understand and overcome this psychological trap. They learned all these terrible things at a young age and thus they grew up with this being the way the world is to them. Un-learning it is not easy. Learning to cope with it isn't easy. Even with good therapy there are women who cannot ever get over this.

I asked earlier if you ever noticed behaviors during sex or physical contact such as turning away. You have mentioned not getting hugs. These things happen because internally she is triggered to some extent with the feeling that you are dangerous, some kind of threat, some kind of abuser or victimizer. This is an involuntary emotional response. My stbxw has called me some horrible names in unguarded moments, reflecting this internal reaction which is completely unfounded in any experience she has ever had with me.

Sorry you're in this club.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

dave101 said:


> Thor,
> 
> Oh yeah,
> closes eyes during sex. used to dress provocatively, not anymore. got pregnant at 16 with first boyfriend whom she married and later divorced... and she hates steamy scenes in movies. Often comments that someone's skirt is too short, boobs are hanging out etc,. How did you know??


So she bounced from promiscuous as a teen to prudish later on. Very familiar, and not uncommon.

My wife was pregnant at 17 with some guy she had just started dating a few weeks prior. Supposedly the pregnancy ended naturally very shortly thereafter. I've heard some stories about her behavior as a teen and I am sure there is much much more I don't know about.

Then after the wedding everything changed. And after our first child was born, a girl, she treated me very much as the enemy. Now it all makes sense, but at the time I didn't know of her CSA history.


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## dave101 (Sep 17, 2016)

convert...
yes, she attends a weekly support group. At first I felt that it was a positive thing but I now fear that the "support" is only enabling and emboldening the "emotional blackmail" behavior. After each support session, she seems more distanced. In the past, if we were together for a weekend or vacation week...things improved significantly, until we were back in the usual environment


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## dave101 (Sep 17, 2016)

Philly... point of clarification. I get the lying is bad part. My point is that I shouldn't have to lie about innocent situations, and I would not be surprised if others feel the same way. What I ended up doing was sacrificing my integrity to keep the peace...because even innocent interactions with female friends would lead to isolation and emotional abandonment.

I know that I can bail on this relationship, but I am on this forum to share and get opinions from you all, because I am hoping that this is still salvageable


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## dave101 (Sep 17, 2016)

Gus, 
she knows them but I wouldn't call it a friendship...they are coworkers in one form or another.


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## dave101 (Sep 17, 2016)

The latest set of demands is that she get access to all my text messages and emails. Until I agree, I will "not have any emotional contact". I have a couple of issues with this... 1) people do tell me things in confidence that they don't want others knowing, and I feel I need to respect my friends (male and female) privacy ... 2) I do not want to continue to cave to the blackmail. I did get one hug today... not sure why. Tease perhaps?


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## 2asdf2 (Jun 5, 2012)

How would she react if you told her that you would get "emotional contact" from her or you would get it from someone else?

Without getting into who someone else might be.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

dave101 said:


> The latest set of demands is that she get access to all my text messages and emails. Until I agree, I will "not have any emotional contact". I have a couple of issues with this... 1) people do tell me things in confidence that they don't want others knowing, and I feel I need to respect my friends (male and female) privacy ... 2) I do not want to continue to cave to the blackmail. I did get one hug today... not sure why. Tease perhaps?


You said that you wanted to salvage your marriage.

Can you afford it?

Do you have enough love deposits in your' bank's vault?

Is the price too high? Are you having Stick-Her shock?

*You can do this.*

The 64 thousand dollar question? = *Can she?
*
I dunno........sorry.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Dave, sorry I lost track of the details in your situation. Has she refused to go to marriage counseling with you? I think a therapist would be on your side that this is emotional blackmail and is counter productive to the relationship. Frankly I think this is not a DIY project when you're dealing with a CSA victim.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

dave101 said:


> *The latest set of demands is that she get access to all my text messages and emails.* Until I agree, I will "not have any emotional contact". I have a couple of issues with this... 1) people do tell me things in confidence that they don't want others knowing, and I feel I need to respect my friends (male and female) privacy ... 2) I do not want to continue to cave to the blackmail. I did get one hug today... not sure why. Tease perhaps?


This is something you both should be doing anyway. You BOTH should have full access to each other's social media, email, texts, etc. Having opposite sex friends is a slippery slope, on both sides. Private conversations and spending one on one time in my opinion is a bit fat NO-NO. And I am NOT a SAS, just someone who learned a lesson the hard way. 

That said, I do NOT agree with her emotional blackmail, on this or anything else.


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## dave101 (Sep 17, 2016)

I have told her that I will not yield to emotional blackmail, and if it continues I will have no choice but get emotional support elsewhere. She told me that if she finds out I have been talking to any other women there "will be consequences"...to which I replied "what else can you do after taking away affection/touch/sex". I got a "you'll see" threat in return. Whatever. I was also told that I am being selfish and not thinking about the marriage! That my refusal to comply is the real threat to the marriage... 

I am sticking to my guns this time. I have made a lifetime of caving to get things back to even keel. Thank you guys so much for suggesting Dr. Glover's book No More Mr. Nice Guy


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## dave101 (Sep 17, 2016)

Thor- She was going to MC with me but then bailed when the counselor started getting to close to the CSA issues and her part in our problems...and she felt she was losing control of the direction the conversation was heading. She was fine as long as I was on the "hot seat".


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

dave101 said:


> Thor- She was going to MC with me but then bailed when the counselor started getting to close to the CSA issues and her part in our problems...and she felt she was losing control of the direction the conversation was heading. She was fine as long as I was on the "hot seat".


Sounds familiar...

So I think you understand that her CSA has affected many aspects of the way she interprets and deals with the world. You can push for changes in the marriage and you can set boundaries. But you can't tell her she needs IC for her CSA. You're really in a no-win situation.


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## dave101 (Sep 17, 2016)

Thor- I guess inside I have known that for awhile... but I always feel there is hope. And I always feel there is something else that can change the equation. I know that my wishful thinking is driven by the love that has been in my heart for this woman for 30 years. It sucks that I can't seem to move the needle, and in fact, every positive attempt I make is somehow twisted into a "manipulation"
It is no win...because getting out means letting go of the last hope of being with the woman I love... really sad


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Dave:

Figure out your principles; what is truly important to you. All decisions should be made based on those principles.

Example: I will not manipulate my partner, and I will not tolerate from her.

Write your principles down. Post them on your bathroom mirror. Read them every day during shaving and brushing your teeth.

Then, when your wife pulls this stuff, you can call her on it. If she doesn't like it, she can leave. But you stick to them. 

The funny thing about controllers is that they believe more control will assuage their anxiety. Then when it does not have the desired effect, they seek more control. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Sometimes, the best thing you can do is simply tell her "no".


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## dave101 (Sep 17, 2016)

far side... I am in the process of doing what you suggest. I have said no and I am sticking to my guns... I know it may cost me my marriage. It has already nuked any chance of sex. have had 4 hugs in 3 weeks since I took a stand. the threats are continuous unfortunately. I am told on a daily basis that I am the one ruining the marriage if I don't cave - "you know what you need to do to get my affection and sex". I have told her that I will not give in to the emotional blackmail. I have told her that at some point she is driving me away from her to someone else. I know I will not live my life like this regardless of the consequences. I just wish I had a "trump card" as effective as hers without having to leave. I admit to you all that I am a bit scared... I think she can hold out a lot longer than I can...


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I'm still confused as to how you could have been close to cheating with women you consider sisters.

Have I misunderstood?

Have you considered just cutting off female friends for a while to see if it makes any difference?

If they're friends they'll understand. I cut off a guy friend when it became clear to me he was lying to his wife, so I assumed she had a problem with it. 

We were absolutely not involved.

Women who are friends of your marriage will not want to cause trouble.

Opposite sex friends are not ok with everyone.

And if it makes no difference you'll have your answer and you can reconnect with your friends.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

dave101 said:


> Thor- I guess inside I have known that for awhile... but I always feel there is hope. And I always feel there is something else that can change the equation. I know that my wishful thinking is driven by the love that has been in my heart for this woman for 30 years. It sucks that I can't seem to move the needle, and in fact, every positive attempt I make is somehow twisted into a "manipulation"
> It is no win...because getting out means letting go of the last hope of being with the woman I love... really sad


Being a Secondary survivor is a unique hell. I know many men who have been or are in the same position you are. Nobody seems to have found a better approach to solving the problems. A good friend and neighbor is going through separation and divorce for all the same kinds of problems right now. If you can find a support group of some kind for Secondary survivors it may be helpful in dealing with the emotions.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

It sounds like you are choosing your female "friends" over your wife. She knows that, and she is trying to get through to you, but you refuse to put her first.

You will end up in divorce if you don't put your wife first. Like another poster said, all emails, texts, etc. should be available to wife, at any time. If women are telling you things your wife can't know then you and they are crossing emotional boundaries. It sounds like you have several emotional affairs going on with your female friends.

Are you sabotaging your marriage on purpose? Your wife clearly said what she needs, and you refuse to give it to her.


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## dave101 (Sep 17, 2016)

Life is too-----Yes, you have misunderstood... My point was that the last people my wife should be worried about would be female friends who are more like sisters to me than anything ( count 3) . All I said was that if I were to ever stray, it would NOT be with friends... whom I would not put in that position, especially since they know my wife and are good people.. From a practical standpoint...it would be far safer and easier with someone not nearly as close.


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## dave101 (Sep 17, 2016)

ImFarabove--- thanks for your input. I agree with putting your spouse first above your friends...but you are presenting a false choice. My wife has made demands big and small for many years. I have usually given in, after putting up some resistance, to keep the peace and continue to get affection/touch/sex. That "giving in" at some point eroded my own happiness, bred resentment and a sense of loss of myself because what I was asked was against what I felt was right in my heart. So the real question is - how much are you willing to sacrifice of who you are to please your spouse/ And why would your spouse, who claims to love you, want you to be "someone else". No matter how much you love someone, they don't have the right to expect you to fundamentally change your core beliefs and personality


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

These female friends that you share your heart with as if they were sisters? Do you tell them about your sexual relationship with your wife? Do you tell them about her CSA?


If you do , that's a betrayal of sexual privacy and intimacy.

While I have sympathy for the difficult time you are having in your marriage; I think your relationship with these women is inappropriate.

I never caught your reply to the question someone asked upthread: How would you feel if your wife had several male friends "like brothers", that she had to fight to resist sexual attraction to; and whom she shared intimate details of her life with, including private information about you?

How would it feel having that shoe on the other foot?


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## dave101 (Sep 17, 2016)

Not my real name---- One of the problems with these posts is the the way phrases are plucked out of context. 

Do you have a sister? Would you share with your sister about your sexual relationship with your wife? Would you tell them about her CSA? So without my answer to these questions why would you say - "I think your relationship is inappropriate"? BTW, no... I do not share sensitive information.

And, obviously, I wouldn't want sensitive information about me shared either. And my wife does have some male friends that she talks to. And I hope that she is not sharing intimate stuff.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

dave101 said:


> The last straw came Tuesday when she told me that she would no longer tolerate any female friends...that I would now be allowed to talk/text only to men and there would be no touch/hug/kiss/sex until I comply. ]


I don't know if that is emotional blackmail, or if she is protecting her heart. Sex is very intimate, and if she knows you are not willing to put her before other females, she may feel degraded by having sex with you.


dave101 said:


> I am sick to my stomach...I love my wife and get where her insecurities started but I feel it is unreasonable to stop communication with all my friends who happen to have ovaries. And I am tired of being extorted to change who I am over and over. I don't want a divorce...I don't want to live in a sterile home either...I don't want to give up meaningful platonic relationships either. ]


Is she asking you to change “who you are” or just how you behave?


dave101 said:


> And I don't know what is the next demand even if I were to give in again. In her mind...if she thinks it is wrong... it is, regardless of other opinions. She says she is doing these things to protect herself and that my behavior hurts her. ]


If you love her enough to listen to her heart, you wouldn’t be so worried about the next demand. You would be protecting her heart, so she doesn’t have to do it herself.


dave101 said:


> Any thoughts or input will be appreciated.


You should have said, “Only people who agree with me will be appreciated, otherwise I will make make excuses and talk down anyone who doesn’t see things the way I do.”


dave101 said:


> The latest set of demands is that she get access to all my text messages and emails. Until I agree, I will "not have any emotional contact". I have a couple of issues with this... 1) people do tell me things in confidence that they don't want others knowing, and I feel I need to respect my friends (male and female) privacy 2) I do not want to continue to cave to the blackmail. I did get one hug today... not sure why. Tease perhaps?


1)Why are females telling you private things that your wife can’t know about? You should not be talking about anything that your wife is not free to know about too.
2) You seem to have drawn a line in the sand, that you will not give in to one more request, even if it is reasonable. That is not good for a marriage.


3Xnocharm said:


> This is something you both should be doing anyway. You BOTH should have full access to each other's social media, email, texts, etc. Having opposite sex friends is a slippery slope, on both sides. Private conversations and spending one on one time in my opinion is a bit fat NO-NO. And I am NOT a SAS, just someone who learned a lesson the hard way.


3Xnocharm is 100% right.



dave101 said:


> And my wife does have some male friends that she talks to. And I hope that she is not sharing intimate stuff.


Well that is a double standard, because your response to your wife's request to read your emails and texts is that the "sisters" have shared things with you that you said was so private that you didn't want your wife to know.

One more thing: You lied to your wife about meeting with your female friends. Either you meet with them and tell her to lump it, or you stop meeting with them. To lie about meeting with them, erodes marital trust, and surprisingly, even your own commitment to your wife.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

dave101 said:


> So the real question is - how much are you willing to sacrifice of who you are to please your spouse/ And why would your spouse, who claims to love you, want you to be "someone else". No matter how much you love someone, they don't have the right to expect you to fundamentally change your core beliefs and personality


Can you give a few examples of how she has asked you to be "someone else" and has expected you to fundamentally change your core beliefs and personality?


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