# Don't care for sex due to childhood abuse



## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

Hi. I'd be grateful for some thoughts. I feel like my marriage is reaching a crisis point.

The long of it is as follows:

Background info: my father took a lot of interest in my physical development throughout my childhood. He didn't rape me, but he made many seemingly obsessive comments about my physical growing up development, once touched my breasts whilst 'tickling my back' (and then asked, the next day, if "I wanted another tickle like yesterday?") and once told me "I can't help it if I'm in love with you...". Lots of the time he was a normal dad, but then these things would happen inbetween and devastate me. If you combine all of this with the fact that I 'don't know for sure if he's into me...am I going mad?' plus the fact that I am a very sensitive person, all combined to create in me the most damaging, devastating confusion about love/desire/sex that I could ever describe to you, and an absolute phobia about physical development and being noticed or stared at. It also obviously totally shattered any development in me of the truth that sex in a trust/caring situation with a familiar person is in any way desirable. For me, it's a repulsive thought because I spent my childhood trying to avoid having my father potentially do that to me. (I confronted him years later, and in true fashion with caring but inappropriate and socially limited people like him, he was completely gobsmacked at what I said, couldn't remember doing any of this, and genuinely denied that he'd ever have wanted to have sex with me... )

Living with A PARENT who you are convinced would want to have sex with you if he could (which is more catastrophic emotionally than being molested by a stranger, I think..) but not ever being totally 100% sure if it's all in your head - and having all of this happening at the most formative time for a person (adolescence) was devastating to me. 

I seem to have a good libido (masturbation is fine and I"m comfortable naked) but I have no desire to have sex with another person. I had sex with about 4 people before marriage (mostly out of desperation at feeling so shameful for never having had sex before). I can get turned on if the person is a relative stranger, but as we get to know each other, my feelings wane (makes sense considering my dad was familiar to me.)

Husband and I dated for 2 years (and had sex relatively regularly) before we got married. Have been married for about 4 years and have a 2.5 year old child.

I was exceptionally clear with my husband before we got married about my fears and limitations. I have never basically orgasmed during sex and don't have any desire to. I even went so far as to say, if we only had sex once a month, would you still want to continue with this? And at the time he said yes. I needed him to be sure beforehand.

But now, 4 years in, he says that I have regressed sexually and he is very unhappy about our intimacy. He says I was quite a bit less inhibited before we married and in our early married years, and he feels that 'he did not sign up for this' - ie. the fact that I have now 'regressed' in his opinion, and hardly want him to touch me. He says he stands by the 'one occasion of sex a month' thing but he wants quality..

(Since we married I had a baby, and have also been on anti-depressants for years - but please understand this is not a libido issue - my libido is fine - I just don't feel any desire to have sex with another person.) Even though I don't desire sex with another person (even my husband), for me it's important to still have it because, even though I don't want to function 'sexually' in it, i.e. get turned on and orgasm, etc. it's a very important intimacy for a married couple and I want to nurture that closeness. I also know it's vital for him as a man, and I do my best to hide if I feel panicky or really turned off (we are very open about my past, but you can't always push your partner away, so playing the part is something I do a lot.)

My husband says he understands about my past and accepts that, and doesn't want anything extreme in terms of sex and intimacy - he just wants a little more than we have now (i.e. missionary position, no looking, no other touching). Yes, to the men out there - I anticipate you're going to write about how unfair I am being to him by not wanting him to even look at me, not allowing any touching, etc. and how I must think about the importance of sex to a man, etc. I know all of this, but I find it very distressing to feel that I am not good enough as I am, and that I am in a sense being offered an ultimatum - either improve, or this marriage is unsustainable. 

I totally understand his position, but I am fear that I am then just the wrong person for him. I have spent 20 years going to various therapists and have come such a long way in terms of healing (i.e. initially sex seemed totally impossible, but now I'm capable of it a few times a week, albeit that I feel 'comforted' more than sexual). But my husband understandably wants more: he's a very healthily passionate man, and is very loving and wants to show and grow his deep love through a lot of touching, kissing, different sexual positions. Nothing extreme - just what's normal. Sex as an expression of deep love is almost his love language - that's how important it is to him. We are VERY sexually incompatible, therefore...

Ladies, does anyone else out there relate? I feel as if I have worked very hard to get where I am (i.e. 'not minding' sex, and even being able to have it at all) and I really just want to stop always slaving away to improve improve improve. If I told you (who always hated swimming) that you must, after 20 years of trying to like it, continue to try and try and try... At what point would you say to me, dammit, I just DON'T WANT IT. It inwardly traumatises and distresses me a lot and I have no desire to like it. It's not pleasant for me. I don't have a need for sex but will have sex regularly to nurture intimacy; but I feel so hurt and scared and rejected that this is not enough, and that my husband, loving and loyal as he is, really feels our relationship is not sustainable unless things improve physically. I feel like I'm being forced (once again.. as in my childhood) to be comfortable with an idea I'm not comfortable with.

My question is: although my husband loves me dearly and only wants a so-called slight improvement, if I feel so traumatised by someone wanting more from me, and if I have really worked hard on my healing in the past and just want to BE GOOD ENOUGH AS I AM now, is it in your opinion better for us to just consider ourselves sexually incompatible and separate, than go through the inevitable resentment, pain, etc. to try to get through this?

Thank you


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## pierrematoe (Sep 6, 2013)

Honestly I think you and husband should be seeing a professional counselor for this. Your situation is complex and I'm very sorry to hear about it. Friends of mine had a similar situation and it is very difficult. You probably should be seeing the counselor separately as well as your childhood sounds awful. Hopefully you guys can work through it together and perhaps come out with a strong intimate marriage.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

OP, I would get back into therapy because it's the only thing that is likely to help. I know you've had therapy in the past, but I'd find a therapist who specializes in this sort of abuse.

I'm sorry that your father abused you that way...


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

Thanks so much for your comments, and mostly for not judging me as lazy to improve or anything. The irony is that my childhood was mostly very normal and fun and my parents adore us. But my father had this inappropriateness that had a very terrorising effect on me. I have committed again to therapy (wonder how much I've contributed to the psychology world by now!  ) but it's just that - eventually you don't want to work so hard to love and crave something you don't even like, you know? Any the worst is that every person, every magazine, every story i read is about people who seem totally fine about sex. For 'sex help', it is suggested that you should "light some candles... ask your partner to massage you..." all the "foreplay" type things that terrify and distress someone like me.

I really appreciate your answering my mail. I felt exceedingly alone and weird. thank you so much.


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## soulseer (Jul 26, 2013)

I would have an overwhelming urge , as an adult , to bring it into the open with my parent. Maybe your abuse specialist counselor could give you input on that. I think you not knowing if it was in your head or real might also play a role in this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## accept1 (Sep 23, 2013)

I cant claim to understand your position but I do get the impression that you want to hold on to it. Because of your upbringing you seem to think I have to be like this. A way of getting back at your father.

You have already been to therapists counsellors and what not and most likely spent a great deal of money. I suppose all they tell you is what you want to hear and that is that you are right to be like this.

Well the answer is that it doesnt give you the right. You have a husband and are married and his needs come first before your childhood 'obsessions'. Once you start believing that you will be on the way to recovery.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I do. I was abused by my mothers father, and he abused her as well. I think I have a good idea of what's going on here, because i used to be much like you. Based on your child's age I'm going to guess that I'm older than you, and I have had pretty good success in recent years in dealing with this. PM me and we can talk more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

accept1 said:


> I cant claim to understand your position but I do get the impression that you want to hold on to it. Because of your upbringing you seem to think I have to be like this. A way of getting back at your father.
> 
> You have already been to therapists counsellors and what not and most likely spent a great deal of money. I suppose all they tell you is what you want to hear and that is that you are right to be like this.
> 
> Well the answer is that it doesnt give you the right. You have a husband and are married and his needs come first before your childhood 'obsessions'. Once you start believing that you will be on the way to recovery.


Wow. "His needs come before her childhood obsession"? Spoken like someone that has no blanking idea what he's talking about. I didn't realize that the answer to childhood abuse was to be rude and demand that needs be met. You should patent that idea, I can't believe nobody thought of that. .Very helpful, good job.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## accept1 (Sep 23, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Wow. "His needs come before her childhood obsession"? Spoken like someone that has no blanking idea what he's talking about. I didn't realize that the answer to childhood abuse was to be rude and demand that needs be met. You should patent that idea, I can't believe nobody thought of that. .Very helpful, good job.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I do know what I am talking about and wonder if you do. 
This lady has married no one forced her to. If she wasnt capable then she should stay single. But she is capable to fulfill his needs if she really wants to. Many do.

It no different to applying for a job one is not fit for.

Your life isnt the only one that is too short. So are others.


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

Hi! I did in fact confront my father about the abuse, but he's one of those people who are pretty clueless about being inappropriate, and he genuinely is stumped about this. I feel strong about having confronted him - if he's not capable of admitting it or remembering, etc, I won't let that affect the truth of the fact that he was exceptionally ambiguous during my childhood.


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## accept1 (Sep 23, 2013)

I have noticed on all threads my posts rarely get answered. Usually because I bring something new up which the poster is unwilling to admit or deny.
I shall make a new thread out of it.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

accept1 said:


> I cant claim to understand your position but I do get the impression that you want to hold on to it. Because of your upbringing you seem to think I have to be like this. A way of getting back at your father.
> 
> You have already been to therapists counsellors and what not and most likely spent a great deal of money. I suppose all they tell you is what you want to hear and that is that you are right to be like this.
> 
> Well the answer is that it doesnt give you the right. You have a husband and are married and his needs come first before your childhood 'obsessions'. Once you start believing that you will be on the way to recovery.


The sexual abuse the OP suffered at the hands of her father, and its resultant trauma, is merely a "childhood obsession?" How incredibly dismissive and insensitive...:scratchhead:


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

THANK YOU THANK YOU! Sorry for sounding like the village idiot, but what does PM mean?


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

H-J said:


> THANK YOU THANK YOU! Sorry for sounding like the village idiot, but what does PM mean?


PM stands for Private Message.


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

Hi, Accept1. 

I think I understand where you're coming from: if I understand correctly, you're saying that marriage is generally defined as something that definitely includes sex, and that both partners have the right to have their needs met. If one feels one isn't capable of meeting their partner's sexual needs, one shouldn't get into a situation like marriage that requires it.

There's logic in what you say, but I think it's a little optimistic: most people are damaged in some way, and in my opinion, as long as we communicate this very clearly in the beginning so that our future spouse has all the info they need in order to decide whether they want to be with someong like oneself, I think we're being fair. I think it's idealistic and a pity to imagine that no one who has issues should get married... Everyone would like to be loved and share the many things (in addition to sex) that a marriage offers.

May I hazard a guess that you're not married?

I agree with many of the responders to your email - from your tone it sounds as if you have not had much exposure to people who suffered specifically sexual abuse trauma in their childhood. Seeing it as a trifling, unnecessary obsession is kind of like saying, "So you were in a car accident aged 11 and your legs were amputated! Stop obsessing about that and get on with being the jogging partner that your husband needs, and you have no right to deny him his need."

See what I mean?


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

H-J said:


> Thanks so much for your comments, and mostly for not judging me as lazy to improve or anything. The irony is that my childhood was mostly very normal and fun and my parents adore us. But my father had this inappropriateness that had a very terrorising effect on me. I have committed again to therapy (wonder how much I've contributed to the psychology world by now!  ) but it's just that - eventually you don't want to work so hard to love and crave something you don't even like, you know? Any the worst is that every person, every magazine, every story i read is about people who seem totally fine about sex. For 'sex help', it is suggested that you should "light some candles... ask your partner to massage you..." all the "foreplay" type things that terrify and distress someone like me.
> 
> I really appreciate your answering my mail. I felt exceedingly alone and weird. thank you so much.


OP, I can't stress enough the importance of finding a good therapist who specializes in this sort of trauma. 

No 'normal' human being is going to love and crave something that they were taught to dread by someone they were supposed to trust. With the right help, I hope this damage can be undone and laid to rest for you.


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## accept1 (Sep 23, 2013)

Perhaps the word 'obsession' was wrong. I couldnt think of a better word to put forward my argument which you now accept.

##### Everyone would like to be loved and share the many things (in addition to sex) that a marriage offers.#####

I doubt very much that many healthy people would agree with you or that you told your husband in advance that sex would be 'complicated'.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

I am not a therapist, but I think you and your husband should go to one. A sex therapist if you can find one.

Also, you keep mentioning your libido and how it is there, etc. However, you don't want to be with your husband or anyone. So masturbate regularly then? If so, stop. You have an outlet for your desires that is not your husband, so of course you do not need him for that.

This is the same advice someone would get if they were masturbating and not having sex with their wife.

You analogy to jogging is not a good one. The person with no legs cannot jog obviously and is physically incapable of jogging. You are capable of working on this, but you don't desire to. You seem to talk like you do, but in the end, actions are what tells the story. The jogger could get a wheelchair for distance racing and go with their spouse, they could swim together, they could do lots of things together. It is called compromise.

You are not compromising, you have laid out the rules and said this is it. Acting as if he should be fine with it and you are surprised he isn't.

How do you think your husband feels about your inability to show/feel desire for him?


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

Cosmos, I will PM you from home tonight. Thank you so much! I really value this.


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

Hi, Accept 1.

*****I doubt very much that many healthy people would agree with you or that you told your husband in advance that sex would be 'complicated'.******

Do you mean you believe I'm not being honest when I mention that I was very clear with my husband before we got married that sex would be complicated? Well, I guess you have a right to your views. Not much more to add here then. Do note, though, that I do not 'agree' with your views: I find your understanding of the topic startlingly naive and therefore potentially quite injurious, but I do respect that you have a right to your views, and I see the logic in your argument.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

accept1 said:


> I do know what I am talking about and wonder if you do.
> This lady has married no one forced her to. If she wasnt capable then she should stay single. But she is capable to fulfill his needs if she really wants to. Many do.
> 
> It no different to applying for a job one is not fit for.
> ...


I can assure you I do. So you have experienced and overcome childhood sexual abuse personally? I have dealt with this pretty well in my life, which is why
I can say that a blanket statement along the lines of suck it up because hubby has needs is never going to address the issue.
There are ways to deal with this so they can both have a fulfilling life, that just aint it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

My wife is a CSA survivor. Many things changed between us after we were married. I have often felt like our marriage was a case of bait and switch. I know that she is suffering, these things are not done on purpose. Still, it has a very detrimental impact on me. 

Sex is not a central issue for me like it seems to be for your husband (though sex is not frequent for us, my wife greatly enjoys it when it happens) but I can completely understand what it feels like for him. He probably feels like you could do more to try to make improvement. By your own admission, you have no interest in trying to enjoy sex with him. Do you have any idea how hopeless that makes him feel? I doubt he is being thoughtless or callous in his request. It's not about you being good enough, it's about his need not being met. 

Ultimately, this is really about your choices. No one can tell you that you must change this or that you are a bad wife/person if you don't. The question is whether you want to work on the issue or not. That's your choice. Perhaps you have already made that choice. Whatever it is, be honest with your husband. Then it will be his turn to make a choice.

My marriage is fraught with problems which I trace directly to the damage she suffered at the hands of the grandfather who molested her and the family who rugswept it. I have always told my wife that I will not give up on her as long as she does not give up on us. I am beginning to see signs that may indicate that she has, in fact, lost her will to fight. If she has, I will have to make that hard decision as well. Not because she is bad or undeserving of my love but because I am deserving of happiness. Without hope, this is simply masochism. 

I encourage you to recommit yourself to therapy with the implicit goal of improving your desire for sex. Not just to satisfy him, but to improve your life as well. Enjoying sex is a healthy thing. Perhaps the reason that therapy has not worked for you in the past is that you were doing it for the wrong reasons. Do it for you, first and foremost.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

You and your husband were foolish to think that you could marginalize sex in your marriage. Especially if your husband has a high libido.

Also, you have an obligation to your husband to continue to work to improve your sexual attitude. I understand that it's hard. Sometimes, life is hard and unfair. You shouldn't have been subjected to your father's inappropriate behavior. But now you have to deal with the aftermath. It is your cross to bear.

If your husband had been abused as a child, and therefore grew up to beat you, we wouldn't advise him to work to lessen his abuse, and then be satisfied that he treats you better than he used to, but not as well as he should. We would advise him to stop his mistreatment of you completely. In fact, I'm sure that many here would advise you to not even give him the chance to improve.

You are mistreating your husband. And it is unlikely that your marriage will last if it continues. I know that's distressing to you. But it is the truth. If you understand the state of your marriage, you can work to improve it.

Good luck.


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## accept1 (Sep 23, 2013)

H-J said:


> Hi, Accept 1.
> 
> *****I doubt very much that many healthy people would agree with you or that you told your husband in advance that sex would be 'complicated'.******
> 
> Do you mean you believe I'm not being honest when I mention that I was very clear with my husband before we got married that sex would be complicated? Well, I guess you have a right to your views. Not much more to add here then. Do note, though, that I do not 'agree' with your views: I find your understanding of the topic startlingly naive and therefore potentially quite injurious, but I do respect that you have a right to your views, and I see the logic in your argument.


OK I apologise. Maybe you did make it QUITE clear to your husband. Apparently from you original post your husband didnt understand it the way you do.

Best not to dwell on that its too late. The question for you is how you go further.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

H-J, when you made it clear to your husband, do you think he thought it would get worse, stay the same, or possibly improve?

My guess is that he thought it would at least stay the same, or with some work improve. Instead, it has gotten worse.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

zookeeper said:


> My wife is a CSA survivor. Many things changed between us after we were married. I have often felt like our marriage was a case of bait and switch. I know that she is suffering, these things are not done on purpose. Still, it has a very detrimental impact on me.
> 
> Sex is not a central issue for me like it seems to be for your husband (though sex is not frequent for us, my wife greatly enjoys it when it happens) but I can completely understand what it feels like for him. He probably feels like you could do more to try to make improvement. By your own admission, you have no interest in trying to enjoy sex with him. Do you have any idea how hopeless that makes him feel? I doubt he is being thoughtless or callous in his request. It's not about you being good enough, it's about his need not being met.
> 
> ...


That is exactly what happened to me, grandfather and family rugswept. I'm 39 and thought it didn't impact me, but I was wrong. My sex drive is fine, I hated sex with my ex hb and currently have a great sex life with hb no 2. I've recently come to realize that what it impacted is my ability you deeply trust people; I didn't trust my ex because he was abusive and selfish. I do trust my hb now so I feel comfortable enough to have good sex life with him. I now understand if he ever does anything to f$ck that up our sex life will probably collapse. We've been together almost 9 years though and he hasn't shown any cracks, so here's hoping. Maybe that's where your wife's problems lie? Does she completely trust you? By trust I mean does she trust you enough to be vulnerable?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I don't think sexual incompatibility of this magnitude is sustainable in marriage long term. You were both naive thinking otherwise.


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> That is exactly what happened to me, grandfather and family rugswept. I'm 39 and thought it didn't impact me, but I was wrong. My sex drive is fine, I hated sex with my ex hb and currently have a great sex life with hb no 2. I've recently come to realize that what it impacted is my ability you deeply trust people; I didn't trust my ex because he was abusive and selfish. I do trust my hb now so I feel comfortable enough to have good sex life with him. I now understand if he ever does anything to f$ck that up our sex life will probably collapse. We've been together almost 9 years though and he hasn't shown any cracks, so here's hoping. Maybe that's where your wife's problems lie? Does she completely trust you? By trust I mean does she trust you enough to be vulnerable?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My wife does not trust anyone. Her words, not mine. she doesn't trust me, her doctors, her family, friends, our daughter or even the dog. Everyone will let her down. Everyone will hurt her. Period.

She is only comfortable in the role of victim. In order for her to be victimized, there must be villains. The closer the person, the greater their malevolence. The more she needs me, the more she is afraid of me. The harder she tries to push me away while simultaneously pulling me close. I can't fix these issues. She must. 

These are the ripples of the childhood abuse that can still be felt today, years after her grandfather began his eternity of well-deserved torment in hell. The reprehensible things he said and did to her reach beyond the grave. Her family (who I can only hope will join him in eternal suffering soon) continue to harm her to this day by their unwillingness to acknowledge how they dismissed her and protected (even celebrated) this monster up to his death. Thanks to these "people" I get to pay the bill they rang up every day of my life. 

I am glad for you that your marriage is going well. Hopefully, your ability to trust is not so fundamentally damaged as my wife's is. My wife can turn a cloudy day into evidence that I am trying to harm her. 

Ultimately, any victim of any trauma must first decide to no longer be a victim if they want to make progress. Some seem to find that impossible. For their partners, we have to decide when we will no longer be victims. I am struggling with that decision as we speak.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

zookeeper said:


> My wife does not trust anyone. Her words, not mine. she doesn't trust me, her doctors, her family, friends, our daughter or even the dog. Everyone will let her down. Everyone will hurt her. Period.
> 
> She is only comfortable in the role of victim. In order for her to be victimized, there must be villains. The closer the person, the greater their malevolence. The more she needs me, the more she is afraid of me. The harder she tries to push me away while simultaneously pulling me close. I can't fix these issues. She must.
> 
> ...


Your last paragraph is key. That's probably the single biggest reason I've been able to deal with it, because I have never had a victim mentality and nobody controls me. Your wife does sound extreme that way, and the victim chair can be quite comfortable because while in it you can't be held accountable for anything and nothing is your fault. From what you describe i wouldn't blame you for walking. Your wife's willingness to leave the victim chair rests with her and her alone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

H-J - Hi! One thing you have to understand about abuse is, the person who is abused will struggle with misplaced association of abuse. In other wards as a child your fathers behavior made you question his motives by his behaviors and words in his interactions with you. As a child...you really had no options but to tolerate his behavior because he was your father...an adult...you lived in his house...he had custody of you...ect... no real options. My guess like many abuse victims you don't react well to ultimatums or being cornered. If you control the situation you feel safe. 

My question for you is....your husband wants to expand your sex life a little, why do you resist? Is it because it is unknown...you don't have control of what might happen....or you don't understand why what you have given isn't enough?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I wish I had some great advice, but I find myself lacking and I just wanted to tell you I'm sorry this happened to you in your childhood by a trusted male figure in your life. It infuriates me that adults damage children in this way. It infuriates me even more when these people aren't held accountable in any way and can shrug it off years later by saying it just didn't happen.

Although I have not had the same experience that you have - I also had key issues happen at formative years in my adolescence and am also sexually damaged (in my own opinion). Like you I have gone to therapy on and off, I have been in therapy now since May. I am able to exact an extent of change at first, and then return to the common baseline. With many matters of the psyche it is really not as simple as people would like for it to be (those viewing the issue from the outside.) 

I have a friend who was raped by a man when he (my friend) was a young boy. We have discussed the question numerous times - once you are damaged can you be healed or are you always damaged? My friend has not been able to maintain a relationship for over 18 months and he is in his 50's. 

One does get weary of trying to make something easy that others find to be easy. I see this with those who struggle to lose weight and any other manner of self improvement. There are outsiders that say - what's the problem with losing weight? You just eat less than you burn. And perhaps it is that easy - but it doesn't change the fact that individuals struggle for a lifetime to manage this issue and other individuals never struggle for a day in their life over it?

Sexual issues are extremely complex and extremely deep seated. Did your father curse you with a life alone, unable to maintain a romantic relationship? Perhaps he did. And I wish he could be held accountable for changing your fate in that way. The fact that he has caused such an awful affect in your life and will likely never answer for it is infuriating to me beyond words.

I can't remember who said you should stop masturbating - I disagree. I disagree because I don't believe stopping is going to make you want your husband anymore. In effect it will only take away the only sexual release that you do have and be one more thing this trauma has taken from you.

To be able to have an orgasm with another human - that involves making yourself vulnerable to that person. You also have to WANT to have an orgasm by another person. This other person is also going to have to learn to get you all the way there from no sexual feeling to orgasm. 

In all honesty not every woman can achieve this in life (while for others it is extremely easy).


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Hi H-J

I was molested and had lots of problems with sex, that damaged my marriage and how we both dealt with that damage, further damaged my marriage. 

It's very good that you and your husband are openly talking about it. So bravo there.

No one can tell you what is right for you, or best for you, only you together with your husband can make that decision. But I want to tell you about the way I viewed not the abuse, but what it did to me. After all the abuse is long long over with and there is nothing that can change the fact that it happened. I use to wonder how my life would be different if it never happened. I would imagine the avenues I would have boldly gone down had I not been so terrified. I imagined what behavior would be natural for me, had it never happened. I imagined how I might be different as a wife or a mother had it never happened.

Then I realized I had a choice. I could continue to behave and act and feel as the terrified, second guessing, shut down, unworthy, stupid girl who grew into an angry, shut down, unworthy stupid woman. Or I could become the woman I should have been, had it never happened.

You're already on that path, sort of. You've done some work and you've made some insight, but you are still fully embracing the damaged self. You are still arranging your life and you loves so the damaged self is protected, nurtured, thus remaining in the victim. But now your arranging and protecting is hurting your husband, and in time it will hurt your children. So now you are both victim and abuser. Because you are damaged, you must insit upon certain conditions that you know hurt those you love. That's abusing.

I made a decision in my mid 30's that I didn't want that abuse or what happened or how it damaged me, to define me. I began a quest to be normal. I defined what a normal wife and mother would be like and I set out to become that person.

I am 51 now. I haven't had a panic attack in years. I don't let fear define me...too much! (I'm not perfect!) I learned to become vulnerable, I learned to become fully sexual, I learned how to orgasm, how to ask for what I want and need, demand it some times too! This wasn't easy, but not once did I want to turn back.

I wanted to be normal and that's what I became. No one is the victim of my abuse any more. I don't arrange my life so that those scars remain well tended. I arrange my life so that this scars see the light of day and fade away. 

I will NOT allow what happened to define who I am!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I don't think sexual incompatibility of this magnitude is sustainable in marriage long term. You were both naive thinking otherwise.


You're right. It isn't. Something will have to change, it can be good change or sad change.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Anon - was your abuser ever held accountable?

I only ask because I realized something about myself. If I become normal, as you are saying, fully functioning as if these things never happened - I feel as though I am the only one who remembers or cares this happened to me - and if I let it go the abuser gets a clean slate. Sometimes the rest of the world is so easy to brush off these things, oh, just get over it, oh, it couldn't have been so bad. One might feel as if they themselves are the only one who is still willing to say "this thing was done to me and this thing was wrong."

In my unusual context the instances were religiously based and because of the after affects I have little reason to believe abusers suffer in the afterlife. I love the idea of karma but I also don't see it playing out. The fact of the matter is that some people are really ****ty and they never have to atone.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

MissScarlett said:


> Anon - was your abuser ever held accountable?
> 
> I only ask because I realized something about myself. If I become normal, as you are saying, fully functioning as if these things never happened - I feel as though I am the only one who remembers or cares this happened to me - and if I let it go the abuser gets a clean slate. Sometimes the rest of the world is so easy to brush off these things, oh, just get over it, oh, it couldn't have been so bad. One might feel as if they themselves are the only one who is still willing to say "this thing was done to me and this thing was wrong."
> 
> In my unusual context the instances were religiously based and because of the after affects I have little reason to believe abusers suffer in the afterlife. I love the idea of karma but I also don't see it playing out. The fact of the matter is that some people are really ****ty and they never have to atone.


No. I never told after the first time. It wasn't handled well back in the 60's and I was promptly labeled a liar.

I went through many years of constant anger and dangerous rage. But all it did was destroy me. I sometimes want to go to the police station and ask to see the records, then tell them "here I am, a normal woman who remembers that child and that child wasn't lying." But, other than helping the police learn to deal with children better-which would definitely be a good thing even though they have improved a lot since then- what would I get out of it? Nothing, so why bother?

I don't bother with Karma and I sure as hell don't believe I have the authority to grant entrance to heaven, if such a place exists. I don't believe in god, not the way most people do. I don't believe there is an omnipotent being who's will we are directed or guided by. Because if there was such a being, why the FVCK do children have to suffer? Free will? Bull Sh!T! The answer of cowards. There is no omnipotent being guiding us, or children wouldn't be brutalized, enslaved, beaten to death. There is no place where the deserving go after they die. We all make mistakes. We all cause harm to others, through our own actions or through our inactions. We don't mean to, but we're not perfect. We all die and what happens after...any guess is as good as the other.

I think you and I have the same sort of impotent anger. What they did and said, how they talked to us and warped our little brains was wrong. But....

BUT... 

*They didn't know.* They didn't know what they were doing. They didn't know how they were hurting. They didn't know the damage they were doing. They really thought they were doing the right thing. In my case, they thought this little liar/attention seeker needed to learn to knock it off! In your case, they thought they were teaching you right from wrong.

Years ago I watched a Dad, who was very dorky but very well meaning, teach a group of kindergarten girls to throw a softball. He was the coach. He taught them completely wrong footing. I looked on, knowing those girls were learning the wrong thing. I wondered if I was watching the death of a destiny to play Olympic softball. It took several practices more but eventually the dad came to the field and retaught them the right way to throw using the right footing. My husband was furious this guy was such a dork and coaching. The guy just wanted to do what was right and didn't know it was wrong. When I watched him reteach, maybe it was in my imagination, I felt like I could see his silent apology for screwing up.

The best you can do is to make yourself whole and healthy and normal. Then you reach behind you and help the next woman out.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

H-J said:


> Cosmos, I will PM you from home tonight. Thank you so much! I really value this.


You're welcome.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

H-J said:


> But now, 4 years in, he says that I have regressed sexually and he is very unhappy about our intimacy. He says I was quite a bit less inhibited before we married and in our early married years, and he feels that 'he did not sign up for this' - ie. the fact that I have now 'regressed' in his opinion, and hardly want him to touch me. He says he stands by the 'one occasion of sex a month' thing but he wants quality..


How are you with affection? Reading between the lines, it sounds as if his bigger problem here is not the lack of sex itself, but the amount you are making him feel loved and desired.

It's also possible that he simply has a higher libido now than when you first married, and so he isn't able to tolerate the low level of sex as well as before. People change as they get older.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> I can assure you I do. So you have experienced and overcome childhood sexual abuse personally? I have dealt with this pretty well in my life,



:redcard:

Whoa! Full stop for a moment. I'm sorry for what happened to you (and other abuse victims on here) but it's not the same thing that happened to the OP. 

A lot of people are casually throwing around the terms "sexual abuse" and "molestation" here, but from the limited description she gave us, she wasn't raped or sexually abused. In fact, she says one thing that screwed her up is she didn't know if her father was really attracted to her, or if it was in her head. She also said her father was "genuinely stumped" when she confronted him.

So assuming the OP didn't just imagine all this, *it sounds much more like emotional/psychological abuse, which isn't OK either, but it is different*. Right now, the OP's husband would probably also claim that his wife is emotionally abusing him!

====> So H-J, while I might get flamed for this, given the information above, it might be helpful for you to consider that maybe you are blaming others for your problems here, and trying to "fix" your husband by making him OK with something (lack of sex and affection) that he shouldn't be OK with. 

I don't know you, and that advice might be out of line, but it's something you should at least think about. I had a crappy childhood also, but my wife and children don't deserve to be punished for that, and I would never dream of taking it out on them.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

I can understand how abuse at an early age is traumatizing long after the abuse actually happens. I spent a summer with an older brother giving him bj's and being raped. This thread is about you and so I will leave it at that. Just letting you know that you are not alone. 

There is no magical number on how many times a week you should have sex. How many times a week would satisfy him? Maybe find a common ground between your current rate, 2 times a week, and what he wants. Maybe give him a HJ instead of sex at times.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

tyler1978 said:


> I can understand how abuse at an early age is traumatizing long after the abuse actually happens. I spent a summer with an older brother giving him bj's and being raped. This thread is about you and so I will leave it at that. Just letting you know that you are not alone.


But she was not raped or forced to give anyone bj's. I really urge people to more carefully read the thread.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Theseus said:


> But she was not raped or forced to give anyone bj's. I really urge people to more carefully read the thread.


I did and both forms of it (physical or not so physical) stick in your mind for a long time. That is my point. Whether it is physical or not, the effects can be felt for years afterwards.


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

tyler1978 said:


> I did and both forms of it (physical or not so physical) stick in your mind for a long time. That is my point. Whether it is physical or not, the effects can be felt for years afterwards.


Tyler1978 you are correct both forms physical and non-physical can stay with you for a long time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Theseus said:


> But she was not raped or forced to give anyone bj's. I really urge people to more carefully read the thread.


I completely understand your confusion, even if you don't see it as confusion. But it is. It doesn't matter exactly what was done, CSA, is rarely something can be quantified as this kind of action begets this kind of scar. The only bottom line that matters is that her person was violated and she didn't like it, yet didn't have the power to stop it and didn't have the maturity to cope with it. It left her feeling shame and that shame turned inwards. It left her with an inability to trust herself; was it abuse or was it something else, am I making too much out of this, what actually did happen, but he was supposed to protect me and he did in many many ways except this.

The other sentiment that is expressed here is one that I do agree with. 

It happened, now what are you going to do? Let it ruin your life?

This needs to be a safe place for women who are CSA survivors. This place can be one of healing but only if it's a safe place and you can help to make it safe. Explain what it's like being a man who loves a woman but isn't allowed to fully love her. Explain how that hurts, the anger, the rejection. Maybe it will help OP see how being a victim tends to make other people victims as well.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I completely understand your confusion, even if you don't see it as confusion. But it is.


I assure you I am not the slightest bit confused. I simply read what was in the thread without adding extra stuff into it. I'm sorry to say it, but you are confused, and possibly projecting. 



> _It doesn't matter exactly what was done, CSA, is rarely something can be quantified_


PLENTY of men's lives have been ruined over false accusations of rape or sexual assault, so it DOES matter. *BIG TIME*. Sexual assault is not just a matter of opinion. It either happened or it didn't. 



> _as this kind of action begets this kind of scar. _


Absolutely I do agree that she can have scars whether this was sexual or psychological abuse. Of course! The issue here is that they are not the same, and it's not helpful for readers here to project their own experiences here. 



> Explain what it's like being a man who loves a woman but isn't allowed to fully love her. Explain how that hurts, the anger, the rejection. Maybe it will help OP see how being a victim tends to make other people victims as well.


Are you saying her husband should do this? If so, I agree, but you aren't very clear.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Theseus said:


> I assure you I am not the slightest bit confused. I simply read what was in the thread without adding extra stuff into it. I'm sorry to say it, but you are confused, and possibly projecting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think I deserve your anger, righteous or not, about men's lives being ruined over false accusations. Now who's projecting?

My intent was to diffuse, I saw your comments as hurtful, dismissive and minimizing. Assuming you joined this thread in the interest of helping, I had hoped to suggest a way for you to be helpful while not harming. But you seem intent on harming the OP while under the guise of "standing up for men falsely accused." 

So you went from dismissing and minimizing to suggesting a false accusation? 

That was totally uncalled for. Perhaps your anger would better be spent at the gym?


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I don't think I deserve your anger, righteous or not, about men's lives being ruined over false accusations. Now who's projecting?


I can't be projecting, since I've never been accused of rape or sexual abuse. Nor am I angry. I was just giving *one* example of how it can be very harmful to blur the lines between what is and what isn't sexual abuse. 



> _My intent was to diffuse, I saw your comments as hurtful, dismissive and minimizing.
> _


Reminding people about what the OP actually said is neither dismissive nor minimizing. 

And you can see it any way you want, but this thread isn't about you or what happened to you. It's about the OP. And she flat-out said she wasn't raped. Also, read the title of the thread again. It says: "_Don't care for sex due to childhood abuse_", not "_Don't care for sex due to childhood sexual abuse_". You are trying to add stuff that isn't there. 



> _Assuming you joined this thread in the interest of helping, I had hoped to suggest a way for you to be helpful while not harming._


Funny... I was about to say the very same thing about you. How about we agree on this? How about just taking what the OP says at face value, and not adding extra stuff to it? Is that really too much to ask?


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

Hi, Zookeeper

What a really good message you wrote. I'm so sorry for the hopelessness, then hope, then worry, then pain that you must have experienced in your marriage (obviously next to all the good times). Your wife is no doubt a wonderful woman and it's not her or your fault that what happened happened, which makes it very hard. But you are a very good person for committing to staying with her and wanting both of you to work on the marriage; and I can imagine your sense of despair at picking up that your wife may feel she's losing the battle. Thank you for the sensitivity in your response.

I have decided (since my first, fraught post) to commit seriously to undertaking a journey with life coach/therapist, and I am doing it, as you also put it, for me. The indifference to (due to fear of) sex is a symptom of all sorts of other broken things inside - low self-esteem, etc. etc. that are directly related to the trauma of my past. And I have committed (very seriously) to trying to unravel these things. My husband (who like you is a lovely, caring person and committed to our marriage) is very happy about my decision, but I had to make it clear to him that I need to do this for me - because I feel completely adrift in life, and if I believe my therapist, it is all largely related to the trauma of my past. The sex is a symptom of some bigger issue that I must unravel, step by step.

So I just wanted to let you know this.

May I ask whether it might not be ok for you and your wife to be able to stop working hard, and start to say, we're ok like this - we can just be now? Or are you feeling a lot of unhappy dissatisfaction with where you both are in your lives/marriage? H-J


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

Dear Miss Scarlett

Your response shows me you know exactly - BUT EXACTLY -- what I feel. Thank you. It is so wonderful to me that one can put something out there - something so incredibly personal and painful - and, voluntarily, kind and compassionate people like you take the time to type a response like the one you did - which I intend to copy and paste and keep in my drawer, to remind me that I am not completely hopeless or not-understood and that someone completely gets everything. I really appreciate this. You are exactly right about the masturbation and the fact that one doesn't simply channel one's sexual energy into masturbation or into a couple-sex situation - they are entirely different entities - one, very safe; and the other a non-event because the situation is not safe, involving as it does a 'familiar' in your life - someone close to you.


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

This is quite a hard-hitting response, but think it's because this is something you must feel strongly about. Thanks for your views.


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

While I respect your views, it has become quite easy for me to pick up who (out of respondants to my post) have not experienced the same sort of psychological trauma, and those who have. Those who haven't and who reply with quite hard-hitting emails seem to be angry on behalf of men and perhaps they (or you?) have been in a situation where a woman frustrated you hugely and you are still furious about that. I get this, but I don't think, with respect, that you have an inkling of understanding of what constitutes psychological trauma or post-traumatic stress disorder. It's more similar to 'having no legs' than you think.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

A father inappropriately touching his adolescent daughter's breasts and continually making comments about her development IS sexual abuse. Sexual abuse does not need to include penetration...

Yet another woman comes to this forum for help and her problems are minimized.

OP, I'm done with this thread, but I wish you and your DH well.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

H-J said:


> Those who haven't and who reply with quite hard-hitting emails seem to be angry on behalf of men and perhaps they (or you?) have been in a situation where a woman frustrated you hugely and you are still furious about that. I get this, but I don't think, with respect, that you have an inkling of understanding of what constitutes psychological trauma or post-traumatic stress disorder.


Not sure if you are referring to me. Anon Pink said I sounded "angry", but I'm not the slightest bit angry, so if you are referring to me, please look at the things I actually wrote, not other people's mischaracterizations. 

And if you think I don't have an "inkling of understanding of what constitutes psychological trauma or post-traumatic stress disorder", think again. I haven't been sexually abused, but I have been psychologically abused by a mentally ill parent who made multiple suicide attempts in front of me. Moreover, I've been in combat on multiple deployments. One of the degrees I hold happens to be in psychology as well. 

I could write a post here dripping with sympathy and probably get a dozen "likes" for it. But let me ask you this - how much has sympathy helped your situation? I'm not really a Dr. Phil fan, but he has one good expression he likes to use: "_how's that working out for you so far?_".

Unlike some people, I didn't come here to make friends with you or become popular with the TAM crowd. I wanted to give you a different perspective to consider. I get the feeling that you are much more comfortable with advice that already agrees with you and keeps you in the role of "victim". You were a victim once. But you aren't a victim anymore. I know you can't ever entirely let that go, but you have to mentally see yourself in a totally different role, and ask yourself: when does my victimhood end? In fact, your husband could probably describe himself as the victim now. 

Now having said all that, your decision to go with a life coach/therapist sounds like a good one, and I'm glad you sound like you are focused on healing yourself, rather than fixing your husband (although sometimes, it would also be useful for you both to go to therapy together). 

And good luck!! I mean that.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Cosmos said:


> A father inappropriately touching his adolescent daughter's breasts and continually making comments about her development IS sexual abuse. Sexual abuse does not need to include penetration...


She didn't give us much detail. I have two daughters myself, and I'm sure that I have inadvertently touched their breasts while playing tickling games or whatever. *Of course, the intent of a sexual abuser is very different*, but the situation the OP described was rather ambiguous and even she didn't seem sure about what he was thinking. So that part I'm going to leave as it is. 



> _Yet another woman comes to this forum for help and her problems are minimized._


A different person came on here and says she understands because she was raped by her brother and forced to give him oral sex. Really?? I'm sorry if that makes you mad, Cosmos, but I disagree that it is "minimizing" anything to point out, correctly, that these two situations aren't nearly the same thing.


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

Hi, Mineforever - thanks for your post. That's a good question - why do I resist.. I think it's because I felt tormented constantly by my father's over-the-top interest in me, and as a result I hate being in any way the centre of attention. What my husband is asking for, is specifically to be able to look at me a lot, and this is a very serious trigger for me. The feelings it gave me in my childhood - I can't describe the repugnance and rage it caused, and you're exactly right when you say I couldn't walk away then. But since my first post, I've gone to see a therapist and have committed to embarking on a journey - predominantly, for myself (the sex, etc, is a symptom of the main problem within me) - towards healing.


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

Theseus said:


> How are you with affection? Reading between the lines, it sounds as if his bigger problem here is not the lack of sex itself, but the amount you are making him feel loved and desired.
> 
> It's also possible that he simply has a higher libido now than when you first married, and so he isn't able to tolerate the low level of sex as well as before. People change as they get older.


Hi, Theseus

We're great at affection, I think, although this has also decreased due to life busyness and stress, etc. But we're both still very good at telling the other one great things about them and saying I love you, etc. He definitely has a very healthy libido, and, indeed, sex is his "love language", so to speak, so that's why it's hard for him.


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

Theseus said:


> :redcard:
> 
> Whoa! Full stop for a moment. I'm sorry for what happened to you (and other abuse victims on here) but it's not the same thing that happened to the OP.
> 
> ...


Hi, Theseus

I think that I do embrace the victim in me, and I have realised that I need to stop doing that if I am to become a non-victim, so I'm working on this. But I'd like to challenge your thoughts that if a woman wasn't definitively raped or similar, that she was not sexually abused. I'd like to quote something on this by a Dr Neddermeyer which I think is vital for people to think about, since there are thousands of abused people who have battled very badly to understand their pain because of very limiting past beliefs:

"Traditionally, incest was defined as "sexual intercourse between two persons too closely related to marry legally--sex between siblings, first cousins, the seduction by fathers of their daughters." This dysfunctional blood relationship, however, does not completely describe what children are experiencing. To fully understand all sexual abuse, we need to look beyond the blood bond and include the emotional bond between the victim and his or her perpetrator. Thus, a new definition has emerged. The new definition now relies less on the blood bond between the victim and the perpetrator and more on the experience of the child." E. Sue Blume, Secret Survivors.

"Incest is both sexual abuse and an abuse of power. It is violence that does not require force. Another is using the victim, treating them in a way that they do not want or in a way that is not appropriate by a person with whom a different relationship is required. It is abuse because it does not take into consideration the needs or wishes of the child; rather, it meets the needs of the other person at the child's expense. If the experience has sexual meaning for another person, in lieu of a nurturing purpose for the benefit of the child, it is abuse. If it is unwanted or inappropriate for her age or the relationship, it is abuse. Incest [sexual abuse] can occur through words, sounds, or even exposure of the child to sights or acts that are sexual but do not involve her. If she is forced to see what she does not want to see, for instance, by an exhibitionist, it is abuse. If a child is forced into an experience that is sexual in content or overtone that is abuse. As long as the child is induced into sexual activity with someone who is in a position of greater power, whether that power is derived through the perpetrator's age, size, status, or relationship, the act is abusive. A child who cannot refuse, or who believes she or he cannot refuse, is a child who has been violated." (E. Sue Blume, Secret Survivors).


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

tyler1978 said:


> I can understand how abuse at an early age is traumatizing long after the abuse actually happens. I spent a summer with an older brother giving him bj's and being raped. This thread is about you and so I will leave it at that. Just letting you know that you are not alone.
> 
> There is no magical number on how many times a week you should have sex. How many times a week would satisfy him? Maybe find a common ground between your current rate, 2 times a week, and what he wants. Maybe give him a HJ instead of sex at times.


Hi, Tyler 1978
I think it's generous and compassionate of you to write a little about the past to let me know you understand, and that I am not alone. It's things like that that make me feel confident about challenging this whole trauma in my life. Thanks!


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

mineforever said:


> Tyler1978 you are correct both forms physical and non-physical can stay with you for a long time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Originally Posted by tyler1978 View Post
I did and both forms of it (physical or not so physical) stick in your mind for a long time. That is my point. Whether it is physical or not, the effects can be felt for years afterwards.


Theseus, the posters above are right: the issue is not always about how much of the abuse was physical - in many cases it's centred almost wholly on the relationship between the child and the adult. For one thing, one person is an adult, so already the fact that they overstepped any boundary with a child is a shock and a betrayal. But if the person was a parent - A PARENT! - or a grandparent, say, the betrayal is indescribable. I read something once that always stayed with me: "it takes 30 seconds for a father to put his hand into his daughter's underpants and have a feel - and nothing will ever be the same in her life again."

You could say, oh come on, it was such a quick, tiny thing - not rape. But trust me, you speak to anyone on this forum who experienced the bone-chilling shock, as a young child, of a parent or grandparent or brother etc. crossing that uncrossable boundary willingly, and you will see very quickly that in terms of breaching your trust in them as an adult and a parent/etc, the breach is as serious as it would be after a rape or similar.


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

Theseus, my original post does mention that my father also intentionally fondled me, which is defined as sexual abuse.


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I don't think I deserve your anger, righteous or not, about men's lives being ruined over false accusations. Now who's projecting?
> 
> My intent was to diffuse, I saw your comments as hurtful, dismissive and minimizing. Assuming you joined this thread in the interest of helping, I had hoped to suggest a way for you to be helpful while not harming. But you seem intent on harming the OP while under the guise of "standing up for men falsely accused."
> 
> ...


I have to totally agree with Pink Anon, Theseus. Please understand that hurt people come onto this site very nervously, and full of shame and low self-esteem. They don't come onto the forum keen to have an intellectual or academic argument. It's hard going out into a cyber and talking about your deepest fears, hoping no one will laugh or think you are stupid. Most of us who have been abused have had our full share of being told off, to be frank. Whilst I understand you may feel you're trying to add a 'voice of reason' to the forum, please keep in mind that many of the people you're addressing may have an incredible amount more experience than you when it comes to living day to day with the agony of having been traumatised. Perhaps this is not the forum to try to shake people up a bit?


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I don't think I deserve your anger, righteous or not, about men's lives being ruined over false accusations. Now who's projecting?
> 
> My intent was to diffuse, I saw your comments as hurtful, dismissive and minimizing. Assuming you joined this thread in the interest of helping, I had hoped to suggest a way for you to be helpful while not harming. But you seem intent on harming the OP while under the guise of "standing up for men falsely accused."
> 
> ...





Theseus said:


> I can't be projecting, since I've never been accused of rape or sexual abuse. Nor am I angry. I was just giving *one* example of how it can be very harmful to blur the lines between what is and what isn't sexual abuse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Theseus, since I am the OP, I can say with authority, you are wrong, and Anon Pink is right. I wrote childhood abuse in the subject line, but the body of my post was very clear about the sexual element of the abuse.


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

Theseus said:


> Not sure if you are referring to me. Anon Pink said I sounded "angry", but I'm not the slightest bit angry, so if you are referring to me, please look at the things I actually wrote, not other people's mischaracterizations.
> 
> And if you think I don't have an "inkling of understanding of what constitutes psychological trauma or post-traumatic stress disorder", think again. I haven't been sexually abused, but I have been psychologically abused by a mentally ill parent who made multiple suicide attempts in front of me. Moreover, I've been in combat on multiple deployments. One of the degrees I hold happens to be in psychology as well.
> 
> ...


Theseus - thank you for that. I'm sorry to hear about the harrowing experiences you've been through. I have absolutely no experience in those areas and can only imagine the difficulty you must have been through. 

In terms of each person's unique pain - the thing of it is that, even if two people experience exactly the same thing, their reaction to it can be vastly different, depending on their internal machinery. You may be someone who is simply more resilient than most people, just biologically/psychologically. In fact, I remember watching a documentary on Special Forces soldiers and how they have that so-called 'warrior gene'. It doesn't matter whether to you what happened to me is a small thing; what matters is that it traumatised my whole life. What I find difficult is the tone of your posts - I know you intend to speak truth and you don't want to drip with sympathy, but I think if you allowed for some more sincere compassion, you'd find the worthiness of your opinions much better absorbed by readers. This is also a site for people who are in a sense falling apart, so that extra little drop of compassion accompany your common sense very well. 

After having said all of that, as I mentioned previously, I do think I have embraced a victim mentality and it's been good to hear this opinion reinforced by you and a few other posters. Good luck to you too - may all go well.


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

H-J said:


> May I ask whether it might not be ok for you and your wife to be able to stop working hard, and start to say, we're ok like this - we can just be now? Or are you feeling a lot of unhappy dissatisfaction with where you both are in your lives/marriage? H-J


My wife would be very comfortable to continue living in her darkness, not having to make the effort to improve. That's part of her illness. She doesn't want to lose control and she absolutely doesn't want to be vulnerable. 

I cannot continue to enable this situation. We are either working to improve together (no matter how painfully slow the process) or I have to save myself.

About 5 years ago I was diagnosed with a terrifyingly serious heart condition that had no outward symptoms. I am a medical oddity. I should not have been able to walk a flight of stairs without stopping to rest and catch my breath for 10 minutes halfway up. I was shoveling snow a few days before. I was told that 80% of people diagnosed with this are dead in five years. I had to wear a defibrillator vest 24 hours a day due to my high risk for sudden cardiac death. I have made a miraculous recovery and my heart is now working in the normal range, albeit the low end of normal. Perhaps this should be comforting to me, but it's not. A team of cardiologist and heart surgeons can't explain why this happened despite a laundry list of invasive tests. So, I live with the fear that if it could happen once it could happen again.

Do I have 40 years, 40 months or 40 days left? Who knows? I do know that I cannot squander whatever time I have left in a hopelessly miserable situation. If there is hope, I can continue. If she gives up, I can't do it. Staring your mortality in the face in your late 30's changes your perspective a bit. Holding my 8 month old daughter in my arms while my defibrillator vest alarmed out (false alarm-I got used to it after a while) had a profound affect on me. I will not accept the status quo. I cannot. I have a lot of life in me and want to live it. For me and my daughter. Even my wife. She will not get any closer to peace if I stay here and enable her. 

Your situation sounds very different. If sex is really the only significant issue and your marriage is healthy and loving in most other ways I do think your husband can be patient and allow you to work at your own pace on this. That is provided that you are actually working and not shining him on. You can't expect him to just ignore his need indefinitely. It may seem insignificant for you, but the longer he goes unfulfilled the more urgent his need will become. Again, I stress that you work on this issue for yourself but try to keep him in the loop during the process. The more he knows, the more he may be able to help you. It may be hard to believe, but a healthy sex life is just plain wonderful. If you can reach that point your only regret will be that you hadn't gotten there sooner.

I know it will not be easy for you, but I believe you can do it. I believe that everyone has the ability to change. Very few have the will. That is the key.

Good luck.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

H-J said:


> I have to totally agree with Pink Anon, Theseus. Please understand that hurt people come onto this site very nervously, and full of shame and low self-esteem. They don't come onto the forum keen to have an intellectual or academic argument. It's hard going out into a cyber and talking about your deepest fears, hoping no one will laugh or think you are stupid. Most of us who have been abused have had our full share of being told off, to be frank. Whilst I understand you may feel you're trying to add a 'voice of reason' to the forum, please keep in mind that many of the people you're addressing may have an incredible amount more experience than you when it comes to living day to day with the agony of having been traumatised. Perhaps this is not the forum to try to shake people up a bit?


Hello,

I'm sorry for what you experienced in your childhood and I understand that you came to this forum for some support in dealing with your situation in your marriage. However, in TAM there is a huge male population who have had or are having very bitter relations with our gender. This makes them very cynical and angry towards any female who openly admits to denying sex, hating sex or avoiding sex with their hubby FOR WHATEVER REASON. You stated that you openly informed your hubby BEFORE MARRIAGE what he was getting into and he accepted. But, evidentally, even if you state that this section of the HD population will still cry foul. According to them you were supposed to be able to predict how your hubby was going to evolve in the relationship and break it off even though he STILL AGREED TO MARRY YOU. All they see is another HD victim in a sexless marriage.

So, please excuse them and their tunnel vision, and take their responses for what they are, bitter rantings of hurt and confused people who can't see past their own unfulfilled longings for physical love in their lives. Anybody who denies sex for any reason is the enemy, bar none.

My advice to you is to get your therapy to heal for yourself. Be prepared for that process to take time, but it must be done. And in the meantime I will petition for a LD section on these forums so we can be heard and understood. We need a place to vent, safe from the bitterness of the HDs who have not learned that there are two sides to every story and if they would just listen they would gain understanding of their situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

H-J said:


> Hi, Mineforever - thanks for your post. That's a good question - why do I resist.. I think it's because I felt tormented constantly by my father's over-the-top interest in me, and as a result I hate being in any way the centre of attention. *What my husband is asking for, is specifically to be able to look at me a lot, and this is a very serious trigger for me. *The feelings it gave me in my childhood - I can't describe the repugnance and rage it caused, and you're exactly right when you say I couldn't walk away then. But since my first post, I've gone to see a therapist and have committed to embarking on a journey - predominantly, for myself (the sex, etc, is a symptom of the main problem within me) - towards healing.


I'm glad to know you have decided to journey to wholeness! 

Okay, your husband, being a visual man, wants to look at his beautiful wife. Take this at face value and try to set aside your reaction to this. Is it wrong for a husband to want to look at his wife's beautiful body? 

Now, keeping to your husbands perspective, forgetting for a moment your feelings, are his thoughts and feelings while he looks at your beautiful body, wrong or repugnant? 

What your husband wants is not going to harm you. But how do you fully let go of the yuck you feel at allowing him to gaze upon your beautiful body?

You practice gazing at your beautiful body by yourself. Stand in front of a full length mirror and look at your body while you notice all the positive things. You do this every day. You forcefully replace your demon thoughts with positive thoughts. Your "practice" this every day.

As you grow more comfortable, you allow him to gaze at your legs. Just your legs. You keep telling yourself how beautiful your legs are, how they turn him on, AND that this is right, this is the way a loving wife and husband should relate to each other.

From legs move onto stomach. From stomach move onto breasts. It's a purposeful step by step process in which you replace the bad with the good.

There is no therapy that will magically make the bad disappear allowing you to do a strip tease with comfort and ease. You force the bad out when your force the good in, while going to therapy.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

techmom said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm sorry for what you experienced in your childhood and I understand that you came to this forum for some support in dealing with your situation in your marriage. However, in TAM there is a huge male population who have had or are having very bitter relations with our gender. This makes them very cynical and angry towards any female who openly admits to denying sex, hating sex or avoiding sex with their hubby FOR WHATEVER REASON. You stated that you openly informed your hubby BEFORE MARRIAGE what he was getting into and he accepted. But, evidentally, even if you state that this section of the HD population will still cry foul. According to them you were supposed to be able to predict how your hubby was going to evolve in the relationship and break it off even though he STILL AGREED TO MARRY YOU. All they see is another HD victim in a sexless marriage.
> 
> ...


Sing it sister!


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> I'm glad to know you have decided to journey to wholeness!
> 
> Okay, your husband, being a visual man, wants to look at his beautiful wife. Take this at face value and try to set aside your reaction to this. Is it wrong for a husband to want to look at his wife's beautiful body?
> 
> ...


This is a beautiful way to gain self acceptance, I love this!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

H-J said:


> Theseus, my original post does mention that my father also intentionally fondled me, which is defined as sexual abuse.


Not exactly. Your exact words were much different. You said: he *"once touched my breasts whilst 'tickling my back'"*. As I pointed out above, that description could apply to almost any dad on the planet. If he fondled you sexually, then yes that is sexual abuse. But we weren't there; we can only go off of what you actually told us. 



H-J said:


> I have to totally agree with Pink Anon, Theseus. Please understand that hurt people come onto this site very nervously, and full of shame and low self-esteem. They don't come onto the forum keen to have an intellectual or academic argument.....Perhaps this is not the forum to try to shake people up a bit?


I could be sympathetic to you all day long. But once again, how's that been working out for you? I can say your father was a bad guy, and he probably was, but that doesn't help you now. 



H-J said:


> You could say, oh come on, it was such a quick, tiny thing - not rape.


But just to make it clear, I *NEVER* said it was a "quick, tiny thing" or anything resembling that. 

And with that, I think this thread is devolving to an unuseful place. I think Anon's advice above is very good, but otherwise people are making a lot of unwarranted, and frankly nasty, assumptions here. 

Just for the record, H-J, I am hardly a "woman hater", quite the opposite. I am in a great relationship now, and in many ways my wife is the one in charge, and I have no problem with that. I invite anyone here to look at my posting history, and base your opinions on things I actually wrote, not your imaginations. That is all.


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

H-J said:


> Hi. I'd be grateful for some thoughts. I feel like my marriage is reaching a crisis point. [...] is it in your opinion better for us to just consider ourselves sexually incompatible and separate, than go through the inevitable resentment, pain, etc. to try to get through this?


There is actually something you can do to improve your marriage. You say that your libido is fine and that you do masturbate. What you should probably suggest to your husband is that the two of you masturbate together. In other words, you each masturbate in the same room at the same time but without touching each other. After each of you has reached orgasm then you do affection, things like hugging, kissing, caresses.

This should be a good place to start because if each of you masturbate without touching then you shouldn't feel sexually pressured by his desires. And, if you do it at the same time in the same room then your husband will know that you are trying to include him and that should make a big difference. Also, you should feel safe in being affectionate right after he has reached orgasm since you have little risk of arousing him at that point. This too should help him feel closer.

The big issue though is what you feel safe with to start. For example, does he have to be ten feet away or twenty feet? Start with a distance that you feel comfortable. You can have other conditions like facing or not facing, letting him talk or not talk. Start with whatever allows you to masturbate to orgasm. Then, over time, you allow him to move closer. You should eventually get to the point where you can look at him and feel desire for him while you masturbate. Also, this does not prevent you from using other things to stimulate you. You can watch an adult video at the same time for example.

Once you reach the point where you can be next to each other then you try non-sexual touching. You try affection before masturbation. Just go with what you are comfortable with. Over time, you should be able to trust him more and become more comfortable with him sexually. Basically, it will take time and this process should give you that time while also letting you move forward.

The nice thing about this therapy is that instead of having to wait indefinitely for you "to get better" he will feel more included right away. And, that should take a lot of stress off of your marriage. This process works best if you do not cheat by masturbating in private. Even if he is on the opposite side of the room, if you do this together, your relationship should improve.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

techmom said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm sorry for what you experienced in your childhood and I understand that you came to this forum for some support in dealing with your situation in your marriage. However, in TAM there is a huge male population who have had or are having very bitter relations with our gender. This makes them very cynical and angry towards any female who openly admits to denying sex, hating sex or avoiding sex with their hubby FOR WHATEVER REASON. You stated that you openly informed your hubby BEFORE MARRIAGE what he was getting into and he accepted. But, evidentally, even if you state that this section of the HD population will still cry foul. According to them you were supposed to be able to predict how your hubby was going to evolve in the relationship and break it off even though he STILL AGREED TO MARRY YOU. All they see is another HD victim in a sexless marriage.
> 
> ...


Who's bitter? Time to look in the mirror. Your post is dripping with it.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Who's bitter? Time to look in the mirror. Your post is dripping with it.


For the record, I am only posting about what I observe. I get upset when a person is looking for advice on how to open herself up to expanding on her love life with her hubby despite her childhood experience, only to get told that she is wrong for denying her hubby in the first place even though that hubby was told pre marriage how she was and what she went through. Numerous posts were insulting and discouraging, the OP didn't even need to be here to hear that. As a matter of fact, the fact that she is posting on a sex in marriage forum is evidence that she knows sex is important in her relationship. She doesn't need to get browbeaten with that.

If you find yourself offended by my post, maybe it is because you see yourself in what I wrote?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Who's bitter? Time to look in the mirror. Your post is dripping with it.


Ha ha, nice. You're so PO'd at us women that you must call us bitter when we post things and have opinions that you don't like. The good ole days when women knew their place were better right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

techmom said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm sorry for what you experienced in your childhood and I understand that you came to this forum for some support in dealing with your situation in your marriage. However, in TAM there is a huge male population who have had or are having very bitter relations with our gender. This makes them very cynical and angry towards any female who openly admits to denying sex, hating sex or avoiding sex with their hubby FOR WHATEVER REASON. You stated that you openly informed your hubby BEFORE MARRIAGE what he was getting into and he accepted. But, evidentally, even if you state that this section of the HD population will still cry foul. According to them you were supposed to be able to predict how your hubby was going to evolve in the relationship and break it off even though he STILL AGREED TO MARRY YOU. All they see is another HD victim in a sexless marriage.
> 
> ...


If there's one thing I've learned perusing TAM it's that men have a God given right to as much and any type of porn and sex as they want, and they tend to get a little crazy when they think those rights are being questioned. At least there's a subset that feel this way. That's ok, I love men anyway 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

accept1 said:


> I have noticed on all threads my posts rarely get answered. Usually because I bring something new up which the poster is unwilling to admit or deny.
> I shall make a new thread out of it.


No, I don't think that is it. From what you said here, your may not be as helpful as you would like. I don't remember your story but, just imagine bravely putting yourself out there only to be slapped back with how irresponsible you are for having a problem.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

H-J said:


> Dear Miss Scarlett
> 
> Your response shows me you know exactly - BUT EXACTLY -- what I feel. Thank you. It is so wonderful to me that one can put something out there - something so incredibly personal and painful - and, voluntarily, kind and compassionate people like you take the time to type a response like the one you did - which I intend to copy and paste and keep in my drawer, to remind me that I am not completely hopeless or not-understood and that someone completely gets everything. I really appreciate this. You are exactly right about the masturbation and the fact that one doesn't simply channel one's sexual energy into masturbation or into a couple-sex situation - they are entirely different entities - one, very safe; and the other a non-event because the situation is not safe, involving as it does a 'familiar' in your life - someone close to you.


Thank you so much for your kind words, H-J, and I am glad to hear you are feeling encouraged enough to start down a path of change. 

From what you have been describing - it seems at this time in your life in which your sexuality was budding you were faced with this harmful situation. Mainly that if you acted sexual in any way, opened yourself up as a sexual being at this time - your father would exploit that. It would have attracted his attention even more than it already was. Thus you likely learned at this time that opening yourself up for intimacy was extremely dangerous. While some women gain their sexual power by knowing they are desired by men - and do all the things we women do to attract men - you found yourself in the opposite situation in which you had to minimize, minimize, minimize. You had to hide sexually and probably felt guilty as if you were still doing something to attract your fathers attention despite trying to extinguish every sexual signal you were sending out. 

Of course you find yourself in a horrible spot now because your husband needs you to do this thing for him that as a child you felt would destroy your life. No matter how much you love your husband your mind says opening up sexually is the most dangerous thing you can do. 

As I mentioned yesterday - I am also trying to do this, to open myself up sexually. I've been married 18 years and have no reason whatsoever to not trust my husband and it is still quite difficult. It's preferable to remain in control because it is safer. And yet, by doing so, by holding this part of myself as a secret, I know I am missing out on one of life's greatest experiences - the intimacy that can be had by two people who have to trust each other. Two people have to trust that they will not hurt or leave the other and will not ridicule them in a vulnerable state.

And yet you find yourself in a situation where you have to fear your husband could leave you. Very treacherous to try to uncover this very protected part of yourself that nobody has ever seen when you also have the threat he could see and leave. 

Sorry I'm getting so long winded.

As for the advice given on this board. Some is hard to hear and some is great to hear. It is very valuable to get different points of view. Some of us need sympathy and understanding to heal and others do need a slap in the face. It's been very valuable to me to hear the male point of view so I can see my situation from the other side. I've also been greatly helped by posters who have sent me private messages saying they struggle with the same issues I do. I've had a few slaps in the face and a lot of hugs and encouragement. It's the mixed bag one gets on internet message boards.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Look into the type of therapy available and the various approaches. Going over the past again and again does not appear to help with the present. Starting with the here and now and working on healthy reaction pathways may work better. My therapist helped me use a technique to wall off the experiences that I could not change which I was helpless to resist. 

I made a file cabinet in my mind and filed the bad experiences away and locked the draws. They will never leave me but they are safely locked away. I can choose to open the draw whenever I want but I don't need to do that. Acquire techniques to live in the hear and now. To enjoy your good fortune of having a loving husband and family. You are right, your father was a horrible monster, selfish, foolish and creepy. 

No decent man, human or father would do that to a daughter. You mother was complicit, she should have protected you. Hopefully the people defending his actions to you would never think of doing what he did to their daughters. Your husband's change of mind is something that he as well as you have to work on. 

You were honest with him and he fully agreed to the match. Now he has changed his mind. That is neither your fault nor his. He was an adult and went in the marriage with both eyes open, as did you. You don't owe him a sex life and he is free to D to find it with someone else. But you owe yourself much more than you are accepting now. 

It is time for you to be victorious. Why let a fool continue to win and take from you want is rightfully yours? Love. You are not being forced to like something you don't want to like, you are facing accepting your birthright. 

You can if you want - reclaim that innocent girl who would have grown up to love the physical touch of a loving man. That is your right not something forced on you. I really hope you let yourself win by working on this. If things don't work out with your husband, keep working at it and never give up. You are wonderfully self aware and I think it will work in your favor.

I believe that it is essential to get the right kind of therapy. Going over the experience again will only re-traumatize you. Move on to strategies that help you to put away that part of your life and embrace the bright healthy part of yourself.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> Look into the type of therapy available and the various approaches. Going over the past again and agin does not appear to help with the present. Starting with the here and now and working on healthy reaction pathways may work better. My therapist helped me use a technique to wall off the experiences that I could not change which I was helpless to resist.
> 
> I made a file cabinet in my mind and filed the bad experiences away and locked the draws. They will never leave me but they are safely locked away. I can choose to open the draw whenever I want but I don't need to do that. Acquire techniques to live in the hear and now. To enjoy your good fortune of having a loving husband and family. You are right, your father was a horrible monster, selfish, foolish and creepy.
> 
> ...


Every damn word is brilliant!

Another beautiful post Catherine!


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

zookeeper said:


> My wife would be very comfortable to continue living in her darkness, not having to make the effort to improve. That's part of her illness. She doesn't want to lose control and she absolutely doesn't want to be vulnerable.
> 
> I cannot continue to enable this situation. We are either working to improve together (no matter how painfully slow the process) or I have to save myself.
> 
> ...


Zookeeper..... I am completely humbled by your email - it makes me realise even more strongly how profoundly strong you are to commit to staying in your marriage as long as your wife keeps trying. You are quite astoundingly wonderful to be able to speak so sensitively and in such a balanced way about my and similar issues, and your own, when what you've been through is horrifying. I also understand more now about the extent of your wife's choosing to live in her distorted reality.

I can't believe you had to hear that shattering news about your health condition, and I can only guess how it must have felt, having those false alarms from the vest when you're holding your baby daughter in your arms.

I think you're on the right track, and know exactly what you're doing, and I wish you the most strength I possibly could.


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

techmom said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm sorry for what you experienced in your childhood and I understand that you came to this forum for some support in dealing with your situation in your marriage. However, in TAM there is a huge male population who have had or are having very bitter relations with our gender. This makes them very cynical and angry towards any female who openly admits to denying sex, hating sex or avoiding sex with their hubby FOR WHATEVER REASON. You stated that you openly informed your hubby BEFORE MARRIAGE what he was getting into and he accepted. But, evidentally, even if you state that this section of the HD population will still cry foul. According to them you were supposed to be able to predict how your hubby was going to evolve in the relationship and break it off even though he STILL AGREED TO MARRY YOU. All they see is another HD victim in a sexless marriage.
> 
> ...


Techmom - I loved your post!! I am new to this site, so value your input!


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Anon Pink said:


> Every damn word is brilliant!
> 
> Another beautiful post Catherine!


Thank you very much Anon. You are very kind.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I am gland that the men have posted even though some seem less than sympathetic. It is all valuable input. If you read the story behind the posts, I think you would not not be stung by what they say. They are giving the view from the other side. 

H-J, read their background stories. You will see that they are not only unselfish men but the great majority are very good men who genuinely love their wives. Don't let their posts send you in the wrong direction. 

It is important to see things from their point of view too. You will see that the pain is very real and it is not a desire for pleasure or manipulation of their wives. They cannot freely express the love that they feel for that one woman they need, their wives. 

If you read the way they talk about their wives and their love for them I think you may have a little insight into what your husband may feel. It seems to take a while before the effects of sexual repression takes a toll on them. 

Glad that you have resolved to jettison the evil that befell you as a child. I am glad for your husband that he gets a chance to love you. You are probably the woman of his dreams.


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Interesting thread - I'm in a situation where my wife recently (couple years ago) admitted csa. I was not surprised and pretty much already knew. We've had spans of a year with no sex recently however, I have finally discovered something interesting - that is that she is more enthusiastic to have sex when it is planned - ie, I tell her 'how about a night to ourselves next {whatever day}'. Typically she is very open to this and I am guessing it is due to the fact that she can mentally prepare. In cases where I indicate 'right here, right now', she is very apprehensive. When it is planned, it is so much better for the both of us - I don't worry about being shot down, she is totally relaxed etc. I struggled for a long time trying to understand how to be sensitive and see that now it appears to be a thing about the surprise factor. I would imagine that as a child, there was a fear that the perpetrator could make advances at anytime and therefore, the victim is on alert most of the time. Introducing predictability seems one of the best things you can do. If you husband hasn't figured that out (as I had to), perhaps you can introduce this into your marriage if you haven't already. Now when we have these planned nights, I also try to keep things very simple and try to make the experience trusting - ie, don't invade by trying to get too kinky etc. Although I do agree with many posters here suggesting therapy, I've been to plenty of therapy and find that most of the things I've learned are things the therapist had no idea about. Try hard to find that middle-ground together and just keep trying and don't be discouraged


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

KendalMintcake said:


> Interesting thread - I'm in a situation where my wife recently (couple years ago) admitted csa. I was not surprised and pretty much already knew. We've had spans of a year with no sex recently however, I have finally discovered something interesting - that is that she is more enthusiastic to have sex when it is planned - ie, I tell her 'how about a night to ourselves next {whatever day}'. Typically she is very open to this and I am guessing it is due to the fact that she can mentally prepare. In cases where I indicate 'right here, right now', she is very apprehensive. When it is planned, it is so much better for the both of us - I don't worry about being shot down, she is totally relaxed etc. I struggled for a long time trying to understand how to be sensitive and see that now it appears to be a thing about the surprise factor. I would imagine that as a child, there was a fear that the perpetrator could make advances at anytime and therefore, the victim is on alert most of the time. Introducing predictability seems one of the best things you can do. If you husband hasn't figured that out (as I had to), perhaps you can introduce this into your marriage if you haven't already. Now when we have these planned nights, I also try to keep things very simple and try to make the experience trusting - ie, don't invade by trying to get too kinky etc. Although I do agree with many posters here suggesting therapy, I've been to plenty of therapy and find that most of the things I've learned are things the therapist had no idea about. Try hard to find that middle-ground together and just keep trying and don't be discouraged


I love this post because it brings up an important point. CSA survivors suffer from having perceived lack of control, this stems from the perpetrator taking that control away from them when they were most vulnerable. So they try to control their sex lives by exercising their right to say no. By scheduling intimacy, they could control when and prepare mentally and physically for when that time comes. It is a great idea!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> I am gland that the men have posted even though some seem less than sympathetic. It is all valuable input. If you read the story behind the posts, I think you would not not be stung by what they say. They are giving the view from the other side.
> 
> H-J, read their background stories. You will see that they are not only unselfish men but the great majority are very good men who genuinely love their wives. Don't let their posts send you in the wrong direction.
> 
> ...


Hi. You are so right. I have already gone over to 'the other side' as it were, to read the men's threads, and I do get a much fuller idea of their struggles. What still bothers me, though, is that apart from a handful of very high emotional IQ men, many seem to complain very bitterly about their wives' lack of sexual interest, but very few seem to have engaged their wives and asked whether past sexual abuse has played a part. Also, not very many have seemed to read up about this kind of abuse. Yet most say they wish their wives would understand that sex is crucial to them. My feeling is that both parties are suffering, and that both must be willing to understand, read up on, support, etc. the others' struggle and support them in order for the situation to resolve.

Thanks for your great posts.


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I'm glad to know you have decided to journey to wholeness!
> 
> Okay, your husband, being a visual man, wants to look at his beautiful wife. Take this at face value and try to set aside your reaction to this. Is it wrong for a husband to want to look at his wife's beautiful body?
> 
> ...


Thank you for this! The difficulty is related to the fact that my being may turn on another man. I felt throughout my pre-a. and adolescence that this was happening with my father, so it's extremely difficult to stand in front of anyone (no matter how right/beautiful it is) and not feel 'betrayed' if this turns him on. Now, if I were posing nude as an artist's model - no problem! I have no issues about my body in that sense. It's the turning-someone-on part that was poisoned for me, and which I need to somehow detoxify from.

How I will do it entirely- who knows...! What I do know is that I've made the commitment to try - which can also make one feel nauseous, angry, etc. etc. because it's all very scary, but I have this lovely life coach now, who is also a very dear friend, who suffered in her own childhood with her dad using her in a child porn ring (yes, can you believe this.), so she, if anyone, will understand my fears of turning someone on.

Who knows if I will succeed in this journey... All I do know, and what has been wonderfully reinforced by supportive people on this site (men and women, kind and tactless) is that I am in a marriage, and the point of marriage is to help each other grow and be healthy in all aspects. So I owe it to myself to try yet again... Am just hoping this new journey will not be the same as the other many which led me only this far.... 

Thank you for all!


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

scientia said:


> There is actually something you can do to improve your marriage. You say that your libido is fine and that you do masturbate. What you should probably suggest to your husband is that the two of you masturbate together. In other words, you each masturbate in the same room at the same time but without touching each other. After each of you has reached orgasm then you do affection, things like hugging, kissing, caresses.
> 
> This should be a good place to start because if each of you masturbate without touching then you shouldn't feel sexually pressured by his desires. And, if you do it at the same time in the same room then your husband will know that you are trying to include him and that should make a big difference. Also, you should feel safe in being affectionate right after he has reached orgasm since you have little risk of arousing him at that point. This too should help him feel closer.
> 
> ...


I greatly appreciate your input. Unfortunately, the reason I don't think this technique (very good though it is) would work for me, is because I have issues having another person present in any capacity, during sex - it's got to do with the very crux of sexuality - I hate turning people on. So you can see why masturbation is not so much a substitute for the real thing, but the real thing itself for me.

But I have progressed to committing to a journey with a life coach, with a very certain goal in mind of complete (as much as possible) healing, so maybe doing this will help defuse my triggers. Thank you for your wise words!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

H-J said:


> .
> 
> How I will do it entirely- who knows...! What I do know is that I've made the commitment to try - which can also make one *feel nauseous, angry, etc. etc. because it's all very scary, *


Yup!

As you practice, these feelings will lessen, then slowly disappear.

Kendalmintcake posted about planned sex being easier for his wife. Funny how everyone reacts differently. 

In the early days, for me, this was worse because it gave me too much time to fret and grow more and more uncomfortable. I would end up sabotaging it so sex didn't happen. But now I'm really really fine with planning sex, although there is still a twinge here and there.


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## accept1 (Sep 23, 2013)

Being one of your main 'opponents' I must congratulate you. This is one of the best threads here, where in the end everyone agrees! I knew by your first reply that you were serious and not just thinking of yourself. 
You ask 'who knows if you will succeed'. Well I know. Of course you will I have no doubt about it. And I dont think it will take you very long either. 
The best of luck!


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

KendalMintcake said:


> Interesting thread - I'm in a situation where my wife recently (couple years ago) admitted csa. I was not surprised and pretty much already knew. We've had spans of a year with no sex recently however, I have finally discovered something interesting - that is that she is more enthusiastic to have sex when it is planned - ie, I tell her 'how about a night to ourselves next {whatever day}'. Typically she is very open to this and I am guessing it is due to the fact that she can mentally prepare. In cases where I indicate 'right here, right now', she is very apprehensive. When it is planned, it is so much better for the both of us - I don't worry about being shot down, she is totally relaxed etc. I struggled for a long time trying to understand how to be sensitive and see that now it appears to be a thing about the surprise factor. I would imagine that as a child, there was a fear that the perpetrator could make advances at anytime and therefore, the victim is on alert most of the time. Introducing predictability seems one of the best things you can do. If you husband hasn't figured that out (as I had to), perhaps you can introduce this into your marriage if you haven't already. Now when we have these planned nights, I also try to keep things very simple and try to make the experience trusting - ie, don't invade by trying to get too kinky etc. Although I do agree with many posters here suggesting therapy, I've been to plenty of therapy and find that most of the things I've learned are things the therapist had no idea about. Try hard to find that middle-ground together and just keep trying and don't be discouraged


Thank you! Your post is very helpful and I greatly appreciate the advice.


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

H-J:

Thanks for the kind words, but I'm no savior. I have my own issues and make a lot of mistakes that exacerbate the situation. I used to feel great shame about this until I came to the realization that I am a flawed human just like the rest of the people walking the planet. I am working on the ones that need to change and learning to appreciate the ones that are a positive part of my identity. Yes, flaws are not always something that need to change. To steal a line for Tom Waits, "If I exorcise my devils, well my angels may leave too...when they leave, they're so hard to find,"

I am glad you have decided to take another run at this issue. Sex with someone you love is a wonderful thing. It saddens me that you are unable to experience this right now, but as long as you don;t give up there is always hope.

BTW, I'm not so sure you can take the posts of some of the men on this site out of context. Their need for sex is no more or less important than any need thier wives may have. I doubt that there are many men who just want their wifes to "put out" out of obligation. They want their wives to enjoy the act. It doesn't have to be selfish and if these men were selfish, I expect they would simply cheat. Most of the men here have not.

I see this LD vs HD argument so mnay times here. Both sides with their heels dug in. I know you think you made your feelings and limitations clear before marriage, but you also say that sex was frequent then. Do you not see how he might reasonably expect that it would at least contuinue that way? His agreement to once a month seems to indicate that he is willing to compromise and meet you in the middle. Communicate to him that you are recomitted to improvement and that you are trying to make things better. That's what a relationship is about. People who are unwilling to make a reasonable effort to meet their spouse's need probably shouldn't be married. I don't think this sounds like you, so you have reason to be hopeful. Just don't give up.

Good luck.


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

accept1 said:


> Being one of your main 'opponents' I must congratulate you. This is one of the best threads here, where in the end everyone agrees! I knew by your first reply that you were serious and not just thinking of yourself.
> You ask 'who knows if you will succeed'. Well I know. Of course you will I have no doubt about it. And I dont think it will take you very long either.
> The best of luck!


Thank you so much, Accept1 - I appreciate it.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

H-J said:


> What still bothers me, though, is that apart from a handful of very high emotional IQ men, many seem to complain very bitterly about their wives' lack of sexual interest, but very few seem to have engaged their wives and asked whether past sexual abuse has played a part. Also, not very many have seemed to read up about this kind of abuse. Yet most say they wish their wives would understand that sex is crucial to them. My feeling is that both parties are suffering, and that both must be willing to understand, read up on, support, etc. the others' struggle and support them in order for the situation to resolve.
> 
> Thanks for your great posts.


Many people complain about life but are not moved to explore further than their own noses. Asking them to reframe their perceptions would be like Hubble (telescope) asking Galileo why he had such a simple view of the heavens. 

You are looking through new lenses and therefore, the background noise is not obscuring your view. It's too bad that more people don't do the same. I think that is the beauty of positive forums like TAM. We can share info and others have a chance to look at things differently. 

Why does it bother you? Do you think that your husband has not put in the work to understand what you are facing. That he is just focusing on the effects on his sex life? 

Do you think it is important to your recovery that he show that he has taken the steps to walk around in your shoes. Is that it? Then tell him that it is what you need. You are asking your husband for sincere empathy, not just a statement of what he wants. 

That is not too much to ask. It is easier to work hard with someone who appreciates how far you have come and how difficult the journey is. Tell him the ways he can make things easier for you both. It's a team effort and he has as much to gain in personal growth and selflessness as you. 

If I hear you correctly, it will not work if he stands on the sidelines cheering you on. He has got to run this marathon with you, work for the good that will come of your team effort. 

If he is not that type of man then you go forward anyway. You will be a better woman for yourself. If you can't share the new you with your husband then you will with the next man, should it come to that.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> I am gland that the men have posted even though some seem less than sympathetic. It is all valuable input. If you read the story behind the posts, I think you would not not be stung by what they say. They are giving the view from the other side.
> 
> H-J, read their background stories. You will see that they are not only unselfish men but the great majority are very good men who genuinely love their wives. Don't let their posts send you in the wrong direction.


Cat, thanks for all of your posts. They are heartwarming. This entire thread has been a good discussion amongst several very different viewpoints.

I have come to believe that there is an unbridgeable gap between the csa survivor wife and her husband. At least in terms of the csa survivor who does not significantly recover. 

The child who is abused has learned some very different attitudes about sex, nudity, men, intimacy, trust, safety, control, etc. These play out in every aspect of her adult life, and she usually has no idea.

In my case I had no idea my wife was abused. I became her tormentor at times when I would push her. I played a song she hated but I liked, just to innocently poke fun at her. Except the song is a trigger. I bought her lingerie to wear in the bedroom, and I pressed her to wear it when she resisted. She cannot be naked outside of the locked bathroom without having triggers and panic attacks, but I never knew.

Being refused sex consistently for years without explanation led me to believe there was something repulsive about me.

I can understand how she has come to have some of her belief system. She believes nobody has a right to know of even the existence of her abuse. Many times the csa survivor has negative reactions from people who find out, so of course she protects this information. Yet from my side of the gap I see that she took away my ability to make a fully informed decision about who I was marrying. I was unable to make informed judgments about events within our marriage through the years, and thus unable to find effective ways to work through our problems.

The baselines are so different between the csa survivor and the husband that there are many unresolvable differences.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

BTW Do you think you can consider incremental changes in you and your husband as victories along the way? Meaning that you don't wait till everything is solved before you initiate changes in your behavior and his. 

These little rewards along the way may help keep things rolling and.keep you two acting as team mates and not adversaries.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

techmom said:


> For the record, I am only posting about what I observe. I get upset when a person is looking for advice on how to open herself up to expanding on her love life with her hubby despite her childhood experience, only to get told that she is wrong for denying her hubby in the first place even though that hubby was told pre marriage how she was and what she went through.


I think for most people who get married in their early 20's, plus or minus, they really have no idea the implications of csa. Neither person has enough perspective on it.

So I don't think either one should be held to some kind of permanent status quo or permanent agreement on the issue.

My wife went into crisis after the first baby (a girl) was born. Things changed dramatically for her in ways she never would have expected. And she is a pyschologist.

Recovering from CSA is a work in progress for the victim. 

I would never tell a csa survivor she is wrong to refuse sex, but I would say that for most men the emotional intimacy gained through sex is critical to the survival of the marriage. It just is what it is. If the physical release were all that was important, he could just mb. Or if he just needed a female body part he could go to hookers or pick up a fling at the bar. Yet, those are not what husbands want! They want the touch and the intimacy of sex with their wife.

This is the divide between the two sides. She can't really understand this, at least not at first nor easily, because of her experiences being so different as a child. The husband still has these hard wired needs and desires which can't be evaporated even when he understands her situation.

I don't blame either side when the differences are so great that the marriage dissolves.


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

techmom said:


> I love this post because it brings up an important point. CSA survivors suffer from having perceived lack of control, this stems from the perpetrator taking that control away from them when they were most vulnerable. So they try to control their sex lives by exercising their right to say no. By scheduling intimacy, they could control when and prepare mentally and physically for when that time comes. It is a great idea!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It makes so much sense right - but it took years to figure this out a lot of frustration and tension only to realize the key to it all was staring us both on the face. It takes effort from both sides and if you can find that middle ground it is so worth it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

H-J said:


> Thank you! Your post is very helpful and I greatly appreciate the advice.


Good luck - might I add that my wife makes it known that sex is important to her and I know also that she has tried hard to change and has done a good job. You seem to he in a position where only you are trying to change and your husband is putting all thee pressure in you because it is your issue. I may be wrong but he needs to understand that just as substance abuse is considered a 'family disease', Csa is a spousal disease where both parties are afflicted. He knew going in about your situation but probably didn't see this as something that would require any effort from him but rather went in expecting you to do all the work. If he is willing to accept that he is also now a victim, then he must change his ways as well. No relationship is perfect and in your case this is the imperfection that you both were dealt. So, make a pact to fix it together - I know 'fix it' trivializes the whole thing but 'mend' May be a better word. The key elements to mending seen to be very subtle things that state you in the face while you are looking for the big obvious solution. All in all, you have to dig into the psychology and figure out what it is about intimacy that triggers those horrible memories - where does your fear lay? As mentioned the whole trust thing was key for us and just so happened that introducing predictability helped. Anon mentioned that she, in early stages used the 'scheduling' to allow her to sabotage so my suggestion may not be right for you, but bottom line is that each couple's recipe is different. Work in that together - let him know you will work on it if he works on it and that he is a victim too. If he truly loves you and values the investment in you marriage, you can eventually find that secret world where both can meet and enjoy what you both deserve. Good luck - I think it's admirable that you are asking for help - some will and already have bashed you a bit but be the better person and keep trying 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Yup!
> 
> As you practice, these feelings will lessen, then slowly disappear.
> 
> ...


Actually years ago this would happen for us as well. I would experience sabotage in the form of headaches, fatigue etc. so what's different now. A couple of things. First I told her that I'm out if we can't figure this problem - she just about freaked and said 'I will do anything to preserve our marriage - whatever it takes'. Now I didn't threaten her I simply stated that I cannot I on like this and sex is important to me. So I established that the lack of sex was detrimental whole at the same time committed to do whatever I need to work on the issue together. At this point, our problem became 'our' problem. Next was that I started doing the so-called 'scheduling' but rather than saying essentially 'let's have sex on the 2nd' - I said things tithe effect of 'I'd like to plan something romantic - what do you want?' Now the planned nights were sort of co-planned and to some extent exciting and not just a husband ready to bang.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

You're a good husband Kendal! You showed back bone by enforcing what you considered to be boundaries of a good marriage and showed compassion by taking her problem and making it our problem. That's just lovely!


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> You're a good husband Kendal! You showed back bone by enforcing what you considered to be boundaries of a good marriage and showed compassion by taking her problem and making it our problem. That's just lovely!


Thanks Anon. A while back I tried discussing this on a group called 'I live in a sexless marriage' in a site called 'the experience project'. My first first few posts had a positive attitude as I was looking for help. At one point I patted myself on the back for some small progress I had made and was promptly ripped to shreds by many of the members. The attitudes there were of persistent complaints and explicit hatred for their spouses who were punishing them. That's not to say that some relationships and perhaps many are abusive in that respect, but, I always felt that my wife was not voluntarily punishing me. It is however easy to feel that way as each person's own perspective seems obvious - but, it isn't. Just as I can't easily get into the head of a Csa victim, a victim can't simply understand that I need regular sex. It seems from my perspective that it should be simple - just put out - but in reality it is not that easy. Soon after I left that board and told all the people to enjoy *****ing and moaning and good riddance. The main point is that this is a great place to reach out and try to get advice on how to improve relationships. Your post for example gives me more enthusiasm and when you are able to make things better, you feel as though the world would be a better place if we could all keep trying and enjoy making progress so that we can ultimately provide a warm environment for kids, family and everyone or that matter. Peace!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

KendalMintcake said:


> Thanks Anon. A while back I tried discussing this on a group called 'I live in a sexless marriage' in a site called 'the experience project'. My first first few posts had a positive attitude as I was looking for help. At one point I patted myself on the back for some small progress I had made and was promptly ripped to shreds by many of the members. The attitudes there were of persistent complaints and explicit hatred for their spouses who were punishing them. That's not to say that some relationships and perhaps many are abusive in that respect, but, I always felt that my wife was not voluntarily punishing me. It is however easy to feel that way as each person's own perspective seems obvious - but, it isn't. Just as I can't easily get into the head of a Csa victim, a victim can't simply understand that I need regular sex. It seems from my perspective that it should be simple - just put out - but in reality it is not that easy. Soon after I left that board and told all the people to enjoy *****ing and moaning and good riddance. The main point is that this is a great place to reach out and try to get advice on how to improve relationships. Your post for example gives me more enthusiasm and when you are able to make things better, you feel as though the world would be a better place if we could all keep trying and enjoy making progress so that we can ultimately provide a warm environment for kids, family and everyone or that matter. Peace!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




Couldn't agree more. 

We keep trying to make the SIM section safer for women. The vast majority of women with sex life troubles have NO where to turn. But safe place doesn't mean a chorus and this thread has been a good one for both husbands and wives to understand each other.

Group Hug!!!!


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

My wife was abused by her moms boyfriend,,,I can NOT EVEN FATHOM how devestating it was/is to have your dad act in inappropriate ways towards you...your dad was your FIRTST and MOST IMPORTANT male role model...he defined the term "man" in your conscious and sub conscious...most of your feelings towards men started with him...its a shame he warped that and now look where you are at...I have a daughter and I cant imagine doing this to her...

that said, as bas as I feel for you, your husband is right...were you completely honest with him before marriage, or did you act more interested in sex before marriage??? because if so, he entered into something on false pretenses...I couldnt tell from the op, sorry

bottom line...and I am NOT justifying, just clarifying a simple basic fact about men that should be stressed to all women before marriage...a man with a normal to high sex drive is GOING to have sex with a woman...if he is married and she refuses, he will either do the right thing and end the marriage, or he will stray...

the "right thing" is a grey area...the husband and wife might be terrific in ALL other aspects of their lives, best friends, partners, condidants, soul mates, parents...but if they are young and she refuses sex, he WILL stray...just as SHE would if HE refused sex...


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> BTW Do you think you can consider incremental changes in you and your husband as victories along the way? Meaning that you don't wait till everything is solved before you initiate changes in your behavior and his.
> 
> These little rewards along the way may help keep things rolling and.keep you two acting as team mates and not adversaries.


Hi, Catherine602

You are very perceptive. Yes, I do feel my husband must also work hard. But a lot of this is coming from this inner fury that is being unleashed as I confront things (or the 20th time - but hopefully this time I am brave enough to aim not just for more understanding, but for complete health). I feel that if I am 'being asked' to take this incredibly scary journey, he should also find something in his life that he can also work on. Yes, I don't want him cheering from the sidelines - I want him to feel the burn as well! 

Having said that, since I told him I was committing to this journey (and my anger at the world and him skyrocketed!  ) he has been extremely supportive - he read information that my life coach printed out for 'husbands of survivors', and he didn't ask for sex that day, realising I was too raw. He has really upped his focus on listening to my daily news and so on, and all of this is very heartwarming. He is a high EQ man, and I know he is 'putting up with' my current vagueness and brusque "I want to be alone now" attitude each day, because he appreciates that I am trying.

Rewards along the way: yes, I am open to them. But to be honest, C602, right now I am so angry that I have been 'forced' into this journey (this is the inner child talking, not the common-sense adult who knows this will be good for me), and I am so terrified of the journey that I can't even fathom how I will actually do anything to get any better... It's just still too big and too scary.


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

Thor said:


> I would never tell a csa survivor she is wrong to refuse sex, but I would say that for most men the emotional intimacy gained through sex is critical to the survival of the marriage. It just is what it is. If the physical release were all that was important, he could just mb. Or if he just needed a female body part he could go to hookers or pick up a fling at the bar. Yet, those are not what husbands want! They want the touch and the intimacy of sex with their wife.
> 
> This is the divide between the two sides. She can't really understand this, at least not at first nor easily, because of her experiences being so different as a child. The husband still has these hard wired needs and desires which can't be evaporated even when he understands her situation."


Thor, it is really relieving to hear a man write this with such understanding and complete lack of judgement - thank you. You have a very good grasp of the situation. I don't refuse sex because I want to hurt my husband - I refuse it because it's something that makes me feel bad inside and very scared, lonely, despairing - all the things I felt at those bad times as a child. But the truth - and it's a petrifying truth for a woman for whom desire from a man is so scary - is that men are simply hard-wired the way they are. You are exactly right: the very thing that men want (and which sexually healthy women swoon over) is deep sexual intimacy with their wife. And tragically, this very thing (not just sex wam-bam, but detailed intimacy) is the terrifying triggering thing for many women survivors. 

Thank you for your input - very valuable


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Couldn't agree more.
> 
> We keep trying to make the SIM section safer for women. The vast majority of women with sex life troubles have NO where to turn. But safe place doesn't mean a chorus and this thread has been a good one for both husbands and wives to understand each other.
> 
> Group Hug!!!!


I'm really happy that this thread has turned out to be useful to people. I was terrified of writing at first. It's awkward, you don't know what to expect.. but I have not been too phased by the few negative voices (there is usually some good sense in parts of the negative posts), and the positive posts have been extremely encouraging. Suddenly I feel like there are many warm, wonderful, strong women out there who have actually 'fought for me' on this site, and many sensitive men who really engage the hurting women on the site by showing a level of understanding and compassion that allow us to really hear what they're saying.

A very, very big, sincere thank you


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

H-J said:


> Hi, Catherine602
> 
> You are very perceptive. Yes, I do feel my husband must also work hard. But a lot of this is coming from this inner fury that is being unleashed as I confront things (or the 20th time - but hopefully this time I am brave enough to aim not just for more understanding, but for complete health). I feel that if I am 'being asked' to take this incredibly scary journey, he should also find something in his life that he can also work on. Yes, I don't want him cheering from the sidelines - I want him to feel the burn as well!
> 
> ...


H-J The therapist that helped me the most is the one I am seeing now. I think I mentioned that she adheres to the - not going over what happened in the past- school of therapy. 

There is some good research that supports the efficacy of this approach. However, I am certain there are others equally as efficacious. 

She explained that it just makes the person go through the pain again. The theory is that the past effected you and you cannot change it. The only thing you can change is the way you react to the present. 

You can change your frame of reference. You are no longer dependent upon adults to keep you safe. You are now powerful enough to do the job.

My therapist had me talk to the little girl I was as if she were sitting beside me. The adult in me comforted her and listened to her and reassured her that she was safe and that I would never let anything happen to her. 

That is what I would do if I met a child in need. You would too. When she was calm and felt my love I invited her inside. She is much quieter and functional now. 

Many years of therapy and I finally found something that worked. Also being here on TAM. Some very kind people helped me even though I was very angry. I try to help others, I hope. It does more for me than them.


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## cheese puff (Jul 24, 2011)

My wife and I are going through the healing process. It's been a hell of a ride for me, but we are making it. The quality of our marriage is the best it has ever been. Unlike you my wife did not want to admit she had problems. Its a lot of work but well worth it. Don't know if anyone has recommend the book The Sexual Healing Journey by Wendy Maltz. It helped so much my wife had to get through smells and words I was using. This booked helped so much for her. She could not even read the book at first because the trauma was so painful. I would hold her hand and read aloud this book every night before bed. We had to figure sexual touch that did not give my wife a yucky feeling and work from there. Good luck


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

H-J, sorry you're going through this.  I've gone through similar things and people have no idea how crippling it can be. "It's not like you were raped!" Yeah, but there's a whole lot of room for trauma in there before you get to rape. And then there's the constant fear that you live with every day that you WILL be raped by your father figure or that it will go further and further, and you have to "destroy the family" by speaking up in order to protect yourself. Then you're blamed for that. It's the kind of thing that stays with you and deeply affects you your entire life. 

I think you deserve a lot of credit for all the hard work you've done on being physically intimate, and I can understand your exhaustion. As you said, we're all damaged, but we all also deserve to be loved and enjoy relationships. I hate the approach that, "If you have any damage, just become a hermit and don't get close to others, because you're not worth anyone else's trouble and have nothing worthwhile to offer." Really! _You are worth the time, effort, and love, even damaged, even struggling._ Don't let anyone tell you differently.


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## Really!?!? (Sep 14, 2013)

Wow,.... a lot of finger pointing early on in this thread. Agreed - good to see that it has turned into an insightful "discussion".

OP, I'll try to keep this short,... I am a husband of a CSA and Rape survivor, and in my individual counseling, have been told that the psychological sexual abuse can be equally as traumatizing as physical sexual abuse. Just based on your original post, I can see several triggers.

I recognize one thing for sure, your CSA trauma is affecting your marriage and sexual relations with your husband, and at some point will tear you apart unless the two of you can work individually and together with counselinig and a lot of research.

For the record, there are a lot of husband's of CSA survivors that do read (a lot of) books on the issue, and have IC themselves to deal with the affects on their marriages from their spouse's CSA.

Some books that I found helpful:

- Courage To Heal
- Allies in Healing
- The Sexual Healing Journey (as mentioned earlier)
- Haunted Marriage

The most encouraging thing that I hear from you, is that at least you have "awareness" of this issue, and that you are seeking counseling. Search hard for someone qualified in this area,.... sometimes getting a poor or in-experienced therapist can make things worse.

My soon-to-be-ex-wife has been in and out of counseling for 25 years,... and it didn't make a dent in her recovery. 

I also learned quite a bit from other threads on CSA survivors and marriages,... and I recognize a possible projection between your father, onto you husband,... especially soon after you were married. 

It was explained to me,... that as the initial dating/infatuation stage of the relationship becomes more committed (ie. engagement then marriage),... the survivor starts viewing their partner differently. The "boyfriend/lover/husband", transforms into the "close/family/male/relative figure", they become the "parent/abuser/perpetrator", whom the survivor becomes disgusted with the idea of having sex with.

Could this be similar to your situation? perhaps,....

It may help reading some of the other threads, for posts re: potential triggers, transference and projection patterns, role reversals, shadow-boxing, etc,... and try to weed through the "venting posts". I've had a couple myself,....

There are for sure many frustrated, angry, and hurt husbands on TAM - and I can relate to the pain, emotional abuse, lack of intimacy and sex, from our CSA survivor spouses. Many of us have indeed been lashed out at for many years.

That being said, it's refreshing to hear the perspective from survivors, so thank you for that.

Good luck on your healing journey!


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

To clarify, I am not a survivor of CSA. May have given that impression in my post. I had an inappropriate relationship with an older man when I was 15. Also, parents who were so wrapped up in marital problems and cheating father that me and my siblings were left to drift.


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## cheese puff (Jul 24, 2011)

My wife is going throught the same thing your feeling she had to force herself to enjoy sex with me. She read this post last night. When she got done she set there not saying anything. she curled up in a ball on the couch and just laid there. After about a hr i ask what was going on. she said your post was exactly how she felt. she just could not describe it as well as you. 



H-J said:


> My question is: although my husband loves me dearly and only wants a so-called slight improvement, if I feel so traumatised by someone wanting more from me, and if I have really worked hard on my healing in the past and just want to BE GOOD ENOUGH AS I AM now, is it in your opinion better for us to just consider ourselves sexually incompatible and separate, than go through the inevitable resentment, pain, etc. to try to get through this?


earlier in your post you got your answer because what your doing can become a very unhealthy life style.



H-J said:


> I can get turned on if the person is a relative stranger, but as we get to know each other, my feelings wane


There are men who can pickup on this weakness, very unhealty men. I see post on here all the time, where a spouse had sex with a stranger or a short fling that destroyed a marriage. The man put a mark on his bed post with a smile. your left alone no husband broken family and the shame of destroying a marriage that is probly very good. my wife is battling with this and it make the healing that much harder. It adds another layer of pain that you must go through. im not saying your heading down this road, im just saying the path can lead to that road.


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I don't believe in god, not the way most people do. I don't believe there is an omnipotent being who's will we are directed or guided by. Because if there was such a being, why the FVCK do children have to suffer? Free will? Bull Sh!T! The answer of cowards. There is no omnipotent being guiding us, or children wouldn't be brutalized, enslaved, beaten to death.


Animals, especially. There's always some bizarre logic about people being "tested" or suffering being "character building," even for children. But I've never heard any logic to explain how there could be a "god" that has any power to do anything, and yet allow animals to suffer.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

bestyet2be said:


> But I've never heard any logic to explain how there could be a "god" that has any power to do anything, and yet allow animals to suffer.


Yeah!! I mean, animals are people, too. Right?


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> Yeah!! I mean, animals are people, too. Right?


Huh??? Animals are not people, so they cannot have all those wonderful redemptive benefits of suffering, but they sure can feel pain.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

bestyet2be said:


> Huh??? Animals are not people, ...


Oh. I wasn't sure what kind of animal rights "enthusiast" you were, so I thought I would go all out in agreeing with you.



> ... so they cannot have all those wonderful redemptive benefits of suffering, but they sure can feel pain.


What kind of pain do animals feel? Do they feel the emotional pain of childhood sexual abuse (the topic of this thread)? I'm just confused about the relevance to the thread.


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> What kind of pain do animals feel? Do they feel the emotional pain of childhood sexual abuse (the topic of this thread)? I'm just confused about the relevance to the thread.


Well I'm no Doctor Doliittle, but I've seen a lot of injured animals, and I've seen their quaking bodies, and heard the sounds they make, and I clearly liken that to pain I have felt. So far, the pain in my life has rather infrequent, but if I should suffer greater physical pain in the future, it might be comprehensible that there is some purpose as part of "God's plan," and that my human mind learns something from the experience, or whatever. Knowing that animals apparently suffer great pain, yet without the brains to benefit from any such redemptive ends, it is more comforting to believe in no God, or an abstract powerless god, than a powerful god that allows evil.

More broadly, the ancient Greek Epicurus supposedly asked,Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?​And the answer I hear usually has something to do with redemptive suffering, but that cannot apply to animals or very young children, which is how this is relevant to this thread: the suffering by children, even young children, from sexual abuse.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

bestyet2be said:


> Knowing that animals apparently suffer great pain, yet without the brains to benefit from any such redemptive ends, it is more comforting to believe in no God, or an abstract powerless god, than a powerful god that allows evil.


So, the purpose of God, to your way of thinking, is to either teach you, or comfort you? Hokay. This reminds me of my favorite t-shirt that reads, "Is it solipsistic in here, or is it just me?"

I'll leave the thread jack now. There are all kinds of stupid reasons people believe in, or refuse to believe in, God. It would be fruitless to discuss them here. Especially when the point of the thread was about how the OP could deal with her abusive past and strengthen her marriage.


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> I'll leave the thread jack now.


Agreed. Sorry. My fault, too.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

bestyet2be said:


> Agreed. Sorry. My fault, too.


Now we are back to our regular scheduled broadcast....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

The question of whether there is a God, and if so why would he let CSA happen, is one many survivors and secondaries ponder.


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

cheese puff said:


> My wife and I are going through the healing process. It's been a hell of a ride for me, but we are making it. The quality of our marriage is the best it has ever been. Unlike you my wife did not want to admit she had problems. Its a lot of work but well worth it. Don't know if anyone has recommend the book The Sexual Healing Journey by Wendy Maltz. It helped so much my wife had to get through smells and words I was using. This booked helped so much for her. She could not even read the book at first because the trauma was so painful. I would hold her hand and read aloud this book every night before bed. We had to figure sexual touch that did not give my wife a yucky feeling and work from there. Good luck


Cheesepuff, thank you for this! You must be an extremely perceptive and patient person, and I really applaud the huge effort you and your wife have made. It is exceptionally encouraging to hear that even though the journey has been hard, the quality of your marriage is the best it's ever been. I totally relate when you say your wife had to work through reactions to smell and some of your words. It gets that personal and difficult for us when we've been traumatised as a child. I can relate to her and think she's great for tackling this terrifying journey.


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> H-J The therapist that helped me the most is the one I am seeing now. I think I mentioned that she adheres to the - not going over what happened in the past- school of therapy.
> 
> There is some good research that supports the efficacy of this approach. However, I am certain there are others equally as efficacious.
> 
> ...


Hi, Cat602
I'm pretty sure that any woman who has sought help on TAM and has seen any of your messages has felt relieved because of them. You are appreciated. I hope very much to find that something that works for me in my journey... So far, I haven't, and I had lost hope in therapy as a result, but I've also realised that the difference between my new journey now and the others during the past 20 years, is that the objective of the previous journeys was to come to a place of quietness where I could still be dissociated in terms of sexuality and intimacy, but no one would bother me about it. I.e. I didn't really want to tackle the elephant in the room - I just wanted to feel good and whole where I was and no longer feel I had to work, work, work on myself. But what I've realised is that the sexual element is only one of many, many parts of my life now that have been skewed (or made more difficult) because of those incidences of my past.

I don't think it's merely because of genetics, say, that I am on anti-anxiety medication because of my fear of not being able to control 'life'. and I suddenly realised that the personal pain I feel when I fear of something unthinkable happening to a child or a parent is actually pain at what happened in my own life. 

So, in a nutshell, the fact that I am feeling adrift overall surely has something, if not most things, to do with the loss in myself that I experienced in adolescence... How could it not (because not yet resolved) affect my parenting, my relationship with my partner, my relationship to the world, my sense of fear at the cruelty of life, my faith in ANYTHING, my nihilist notions (because what else would I believe?), etc.

At the risk of producing an endless message, I want to write some lines from a poem by Allen Grossman which has resonated with me profoundly throughout my life, and which I hold closetst to my heart. I am sure you will see why. It is called The Recluse.

My life is bountiful, although I dwell
Absurdly in it. I am a bird disgracing
This most lovely tree by my poor plumage,
Half grown and badly worn as if unowned.
About me grow such gorgeous blossoms I have long since called them eyes of God,
On this white tree amid blue flowers of air
I am the only thing improbably,
To my own senses I am all unreal.
....

What is this wild wind which twists all, 
Letting nothing be final or blooming,
But all, at once, rooted and wandering?
....

Far inland I behold the driven gull
Afloat upon the frothing crests of trees
As on the uninhabiltable sea
And I am paralyzed with loneliness
And cannot think except to cry aloud
Holds this wide world any slim and glittering thing
For which my heart's need has not a use and gratefulness.


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

Really!?!? said:


> Wow,.... a lot of finger pointing early on in this thread. Agreed - good to see that it has turned into an insightful "discussion".
> 
> OP, I'll try to keep this short,... I am a husband of a CSA and Rape survivor, and in my individual counseling, have been told that the psychological sexual abuse can be equally as traumatizing as physical sexual abuse. Just based on your original post, I can see several triggers.
> 
> ...


Hi! Thanks very much for your post. I greatly value hearing a husband's perspective. I can tell you categorically that my first real true awareness of the 'pure' nature of men's desire for sexual intimacy, and the very real and totally natural urgency they felt to express this, came from being on this site. My childhood reaction to my adolescent trauma was to profoundly disengage with the naturalness of sexual development or growth, and as a result I can see a real naivete there in my life. It was a terrible trigger when I husband said he needed more sexual intimacy - I was totally devastated and went straight back to being the panicked adolescent. But the site has helped me so much, in that I can recognise and honour the "goodness" if you like, to men's natural need. Whereas, before, due to my anger and pain, i had no real notion of this need other than that it was relentless and out of my control.

The other thing that frightened but helped me on the site is hearing the sober voice of most men saying that their marriage ended because their wife was either unaware of her issues, or refused to TRY to reach a state of healing. While I've always had a healthy level of self-awareness and knew most of my life that sexual intimacy with someone else was a big issue for me, I can't say that during all my previous years of therapy, I actually wanted to totally solve it. It's complicated why. Maybe we grow protective of the hurt child and don't want to force anything else on it. Maybe it's safe - maybe it's just totally "mine" and I want to protect that privacy.

But when I did make the recent commitment to embark on the healing journey with the intention (even though I promise you, right now I don't the hell know how I will do it, and don't even want it yet ) - with the intention of totally healing - of getting to a point where I actually enjoy sexual intimacy. Listen, even writing that is foreign to me. I have no desire or need right now for sexual intimacy, just like you'd have no desire to swim a 7 km race at sea if you nearly drowned aged 11. Imagine embarking on a healing journey where you intended to not just tolerate, but -WANT AND DESIRE that very thing that has haunted and terrorised you all your life? Not an easy task, I tell you. But I guess this is me taking a leap of faith - saying, ok, dammit!!! I will try, and i will try with the totally full objective of healing utterly at the end of it. How? I don't know. Why, if I don't want the end rewards? Because I know intellectually somewhere in me that this will be right for ME, and will make my life more whole. Right now I can't feel or see this. I am snug and safe and left alone where I am, and why would anyone want to change that? 

I guess it's the adult trying to take control now. I guess I'm doing this for me, primarily, because:
- I am a parent and don't want elements of my past trauma to leak into my parenting of my son
- I want my husband to be able to use his love language and to feel that his sexual gift/intimacy is honoured and appreciated and wanted (how crap it must be for him to have his wife disdain or shudder from that gift.. this is terrible_
- I can feel the pain from my past - or rather, the wilfull dissociation I have perfected - affect all areas of my life - most pertinently, next to the sex area, my faith or spiritual belief in anything...

I intend to work this all out.
It might well kill me. But I don't want to have all this crap inside me anymore.

Thanks so much for your post. Forgive me if my post read as if no men make an effort to read up on their wife's condition. I didn't mean this at all. I just meant that I think in some situations, some men tend to come across bitter and complaining, but I had the sense that they didn't expect to be part of the solution.


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

cheese puff said:


> My wife is going throught the same thing your feeling she had to force herself to enjoy sex with me. She read this post last night. When she got done she set there not saying anything. she curled up in a ball on the couch and just laid there. After about a hr i ask what was going on. she said your post was exactly how she felt. she just could not describe it as well as you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cheesepuff, is there a possibility you wife would be open to my sending her a private message? Perhaps I can somehow be helpful to her in terms of what I've learnt already... ? I would be very keen to at least let her know there is someone out there who knows exactly how she feels. Any chance you could ask her??


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## Really!?!? (Sep 14, 2013)

H-J said:


> Hi! Thanks very much for your post. I greatly value hearing a husband's perspective. I can tell you categorically that my first real true awareness of the 'pure' nature of men's desire for sexual intimacy, and the very real and totally natural urgency they felt to express this, came from being on this site.


Likewise! And thank you for your input, as it helps to hear the perspective from a survivor


> My childhood reaction to my adolescent trauma was to profoundly disengage with the naturalness of sexual development or growth, and as a result I can see a real naivete there in my life. It was a terrible trigger when I husband said he needed more sexual intimacy - I was totally devastated and went straight back to being the panicked adolescent.


Thank you for explaining this – I have witnessed my W revert to her scared little girl many times over the years, and she struggles with separating the “hurt and associated bad feelings” from her trauma, with things going on in the present.


> The other thing that frightened but helped me on the site is hearing the sober voice of most men saying that their marriage ended because their wife was either unaware of her issues, or refused to TRY to reach a state of healing. While I've always had a healthy level of self-awareness and knew most of my life that sexual intimacy with someone else was a big issue for me, I can't say that during all my previous years of therapy, I actually wanted to totally solve it. It's complicated why. Maybe we grow protective of the hurt child and don't want to force anything else on it. Maybe it's safe - maybe it's just totally "mine" and I want to protect that privacy.


Again, thanks for the explanation. As much as I love and care for my W, there is no saving our marriage as she has no desire to address her CSA trauma anymore. She feels like she has dealt with it, it’s over, and she doesn’t want to re-live the past. I get that, and I don’t blame her for not wanting to go through it again,…. However, she has regular flashbacks and revisited feelings from her CSA trauma, that she can’t understand,…. Therefore she projects those bad feeling onto me and our marriage. It can be normal things like money, trust, or communication,…. To stupid things like not taking out the garbage, or asking how she is too often, etc,…. The transference from her unresolved CSA Trauma onto me, has tainted our relationship. I am her #1 enemy. My W tends to act out,…. Where as perhaps maybe you tend to act in,…. By not having interest in sexual intimacy. I don’t know, I’m not a therapist, but I do hope you find an IC that can guide you through this. [/QUOTE]


> But when I did make the recent commitment to embark on the healing journey with the intention (even though I promise you, right now I don't the hell know how I will do it, and don't even want it yet ) - with the intention of totally healing - of getting to a point where I actually enjoy sexual intimacy. Listen, even writing that is foreign to me. I have no desire or need right now for sexual intimacy, just like you'd have no desire to swim a 7 km race at sea if you nearly drowned aged 11. Imagine embarking on a healing journey where you intended to not just tolerate, but -WANT AND DESIRE that very thing that has haunted and terrorised you all your life? Not an easy task, I tell you. But I guess this is me taking a leap of faith - saying, ok, dammit!!! I will try, and i will try with the totally full objective of healing utterly at the end of it. How? I don't know. Why, if I don't want the end rewards? Because I know intellectually somewhere in me that this will be right for ME, and will make my life more whole. Right now I can't feel or see this. I am snug and safe and left alone where I am, and why would anyone want to change that?
> 
> I guess it's the adult trying to take control now. I guess I'm doing this for me, primarily, because:
> - I am a parent and don't want elements of my past trauma to leak into my parenting of my son
> ...


You are incredibly brave to doing this, and I admire you!!! I only wish my W has your courage!!! I would have stayed by her side through thick and thin, for better or for worse is she were to take on her CSA Trauma,…. But sadly, she does not have the self-awareness to do so,…. And would rather blame be for all her unhappiness. I hope this doesn’t happen in your marriage. 



> Thanks so much for your post. Forgive me if my post read as if no men make an effort to read up on their wife's condition. I didn't mean this at all. I just meant that I think in some situations, some men tend to come across bitter and complaining, but I had the sense that they didn't expect to be part of the solution.


NO apology needed – I totally get that there are a lot of angry and frustrated spouses out there, and they do need to vent. TAM is great for that. Many spouses of CSA survivors have gone through some real hurt too, so the frustration and anger is understandable. Also, there are many that do read and study their partners conditions, and have tried for many years to salvage their marriages. It is not always successful.
Good luck in your journey, and keep us posted in your healing!!!!!


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

You are incredibly brave to doing this, and I admire you!!! I only wish my W has your courage!!! I would have stayed by her side through thick and thin, for better or for worse is she were to take on her CSA Trauma,…. But sadly, she does not have the self-awareness to do so,…. And would rather blame be for all her unhappiness. I hope this doesn’t happen in your marriage. 

QUOTE]

Thank you very much for your encouragement - it's really greatly appreciated. While I am going to make an effort on my side, I do think, what if i try, but nothing gets better? Would my husband stick around because at least I really tried? Or would things still not really be sustainable? Hard to know. But I guess the minimum thing to do, considering it's marriage, is to try.

Thank you again so much for your valuable thoughts! Really appreicated.


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## Antman (Oct 19, 2013)

HJ, firstly, I'm saddened to read your story.
Most of us can only imagine what it's like to have this happen to us, fewer still would experience it at the hands of the one male figure they SHOULD be able to trust in their lives - as a father of a boy and a girl, I find this totally distressing.
I'm sorry that I can't offer you any real advice other than this -
Your father sounds like a gutless paedophile. Gutless because he's targeted soomeone unlikely to speak up. It's possible that you aren't the only one.
Little girls hold a special place in most dad's hearts. We want to educate them about men by our example - A GOOD example. We want to protect them from the mischief that has befallen you. If nothing else, these are our primary goals.
We hold our wives in similar stead. I think that if you really explain your position to your husband, he will understand.
Having said all of that, your husband relies on sex as a means of connecting with you emotionally, the fact that you're unavailable might appear to him that you're emotionally unavailable. Perhaps this is one of the key points.
I wish you the best of luck in your endeavours and genuinely hope that you are able to recover from the trauma inflicted on you and that your marriage becomes a happy and fulfilling one.
Best wishes.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

H-J said:


> Thanks so much for your comments, and mostly for not judging me as lazy to improve or anything. The irony is that my childhood was mostly very normal and fun and my parents adore us. But my father had this inappropriateness that had a very terrorising effect on me. I have committed again to therapy (wonder how much I've contributed to the psychology world by now!  ) but it's just that - eventually you don't want to work so hard to love and crave something you don't even like, you know? Any the worst is that every person, every magazine, every story i read is about people who seem totally fine about sex. For 'sex help', it is suggested that you should "light some candles... ask your partner to massage you..." all the "foreplay" type things that terrify and distress someone like me.
> 
> I really appreciate your answering my mail. I felt exceedingly alone and weird. thank you so much.


I don't have time to read the whole thread but I'm very sorry this happened to you. 
My abuse from my father was very similar. What's different is that it never clicked in my head that he wanted to have sex with me. I've never even thought about it that way. 
You just blew my mind. I mean it's obvious, so why wouldn't I think that?

Anyway back to you. I would suggest that the two of you go to a sex therapist who specializes in survivors of sexual abuse. 

I feel bad for both of you. It sounds like you have worked hard to be a sexual person. He probably has no idea how hard it is for you. 

I think you want to be fully accepted for who you are. But the reality is that everyone has emotional needs and if they aren't met, it causes problems. If he feels like his needs aren't met he can't talk himself out of it, no matter how awesome you are.

I'd definitely look into sex therapy, if you haven't already. 

I'm not sure if you know but some survivors do go the other way and become hyper sexual, promiscuous, equate sex with love, etc. I tend to be on that end of the spectrum and it had hurt my marriage when his desire decreased. We got a lot if help from MC who was a sex therapist.


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## Mr B (Feb 6, 2009)

A lot of victims of childhood abuse can function sexually just fine as long as the person they are having sex with can be held at arm's length emotionally. It is when a relationship starts getting close that the intimacy fear alarm bells go off and sexual desire drains away.


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## Really!?!? (Sep 14, 2013)

H-J said:


> Thank you very much for your encouragement - it's really greatly appreciated. While I am going to make an effort on my side, I do think, what if i try, but nothing gets better? Would my husband stick around because at least I really tried? Or would things still not really be sustainable? Hard to know. But I guess the minimum thing to do, considering it's marriage, is to try.
> 
> Thank you again so much for your valuable thoughts! Really appreicated.


H-J, so if it were my wife who asked, "what if I try, but nothing get's better,.... would my husband stick around because at least I really tried?"

I would say, absolutely!! Because, I LOVE my wife! And as important as sex is in a marriage,... I would have stayed through thick and thin, for better or for worse,.... because I love her! I believe that with proper therapy and hard dedicated work, that our marriage and sex life would have come full circle again.

The fact that we would have talked about her struggles openly, and that she was in the healing process, would have been enough for me to stick around.

Sadly,..... my W does not have the self-awareness to think she has any unresolved issues with her CSA, and she is convinced I am the source for all her unhappiness. I can't change her belief in this,.... and i have surrendered to her wishes,..... divorce. I can't spend the rest of my life with a person, who I would need to convince - is in love with me. That is utterly pathetic.

Although written for spouses/partners of CSA survivors, I recommend reading the book "Haunted Marriage". It will give you insight to not only what a partner goes through in a relationship to a CSA survivor, but I think it will also explain certain coping mechanisms and behavioral traits that survivors experience, that you may or may not be conscious of. I wish my W would have read this years ago. Several of my family and my W's family members have read this book, and they all have commented to me,...."it's almost like you wrote this book about your marriage!"

Be strong, and best wishes to you!


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

Mr B said:


> A lot of victims of childhood abuse can function sexually just fine as long as the person they are having sex with can be held at arm's length emotionally. It is when a relationship starts getting close that the intimacy fear alarm bells go off and sexual desire drains away.


TOTALLY true!


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

Antman said:


> HJ, firstly, I'm saddened to read your story.
> Most of us can only imagine what it's like to have this happen to us, fewer still would experience it at the hands of the one male figure they SHOULD be able to trust in their lives - as a father of a boy and a girl, I find this totally distressing.
> I'm sorry that I can't offer you any real advice other than this -
> Your father sounds like a gutless paedophile. Gutless because he's targeted soomeone unlikely to speak up. It's possible that you aren't the only one.
> ...


Antman, thanks so much for your valuable message.


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## H-J (Oct 3, 2013)

Really!?!? said:


> H-J, so if it were my wife who asked, "what if I try, but nothing get's better,.... would my husband stick around because at least I really tried?"
> 
> I would say, absolutely!! Because, I LOVE my wife! And as important as sex is in a marriage,... I would have stayed through thick and thin, for better or for worse,.... because I love her! I believe that with proper therapy and hard dedicated work, that our marriage and sex life would have come full circle again.
> 
> ...


What you wrote gives me a lot of hope and makes me feel more confident. I am so terribly sorry your wife wants a divorce and that she can't see the situation clearly. That must be devastating to you. But you sound very strong - balanced, self-caring and wise. I wish you peace in the matter, and a lot of love and happiness in the future. PS Thank you for recommending The Haunted Marriage. I've heard other people recommending it too and have placed it on my book order list.

All the very best.


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## Really!?!? (Sep 14, 2013)

Mr B said:


> A lot of victims of childhood abuse can function sexually just fine as long as the person they are having sex with can be held at arm's length emotionally. It is when a relationship starts getting close that the intimacy fear alarm bells go off and sexual desire drains away.


What's the solution to this?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Really!?!? said:


> What's the solution to this?


Trauma therapy. And letting the spouse know of the abuse. Bring the spouse into the therapist's office for some discussions about how to be helpful. Inform the spouse how to spot warning signs his wife is triggering (turning her head away during sexual activities, 1000yd stare during sex, etc). Come up with a signal to stop if she is getting triggered. Inform the spouse about what might be triggering (for my wife it is a food item and one specific song).

I never knew of her abuse for 30+ years. I am sure I triggered her many times because of my ignorance. How can she heal if I am triggering her? How can we have a real marriage if she experiences emotional trauma from me if I trigger her?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I know for me it has affected my ability to deeply trust people, because the adults that were supposed to protect me didn't. Sexually I function just fine, but I am hypersensitive to breaches of trust, which for me could mean anything from suspicious behavior to using any of my vulnerabilities against me. My ex hb was very good at option number two. I can forgive things when I believe nothing was meant by it and reasonable people wouldn't know the behavior was an issue, but if I get the slightest suggestion that my partner is being dishonest or doesn't have my back I completely shut down. Looking back I can now see this is why I never had any tolerance for drama of any kind, and if I saw a guy so much as bat his eyes in another direction I was gone. No drama, no nagging, just gone. I also value loyalty and am extremely loyal, no doubt in part because of this. Of course I can't speak for all survivors, but this is my experience. It probably sounds like I'm tough to deal with, but it's probably not as extreme as it sounds because I've been with my hb for almost 9 years and have not had any major issues with this. In some ways I think it has helped that I have clear boundaries.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> I know for me it has affected my ability to deeply trust people, because the adults that were supposed to protect me didn't. Sexually I function just fine, but I am hypersensitive to breaches of trust, which for me could mean anything from suspicious behavior to using any of my vulnerabilities against me. My ex hb was very good at option number two. I can forgive things when I believe nothing was meant by it and reasonable people wouldn't know the behavior was an issue, but if I get the slightest suggestion that my partner is being dishonest or doesn't have my back I completely shut down. Looking back I can now see this is why I never had any tolerance for drama of any kind, and if I saw a guy so much as bat his eyes in another direction I was gone. No drama, no nagging, just gone. I also value loyalty and am extremely loyal, no doubt in part because of this. Of course I can't speak for all survivors, but this is my experience. It probably sounds like I'm tough to deal with, but it's probably not as extreme as it sounds because I've been with my hb for almost 9 years and have not had any major issues with this. In some ways I think it has helped that I have clear boundaries.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ditto!

Having clear boundaries has made it both easier and more difficult to deal with me. Easy because my H knows something's simply cannot be. When trust is tenuous you can't test it. Difficult because people are humans and they screw up. It takes me a while to get past the broken trust, but I eventually do.


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## Really!?!? (Sep 14, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Ditto!
> 
> Having clear boundaries has made it both easier and more difficult to deal with me. Easy because my H knows something's simply cannot be. When trust is tenuous you can't test it. Difficult because people are humans and they screw up. It takes me a while to get past the broken trust, but I eventually do.


This is difficult, because no one is perfect and we do all make mistakes. 

That's why as a spouse, it's like walking on eggshells all the time because you don't want to make any mistakes, as it may become a trigger source.

It's good to know you are able to get past the broken trust. 

I wish my W was strong like you.


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## Really!?!? (Sep 14, 2013)

Thor said:


> Trauma therapy. And letting the spouse know of the abuse. Bring the spouse into the therapist's office for some discussions about how to be helpful. Inform the spouse how to spot warning signs his wife is triggering (turning her head away during sexual activities, 1000yd stare during sex, etc). Come up with a signal to stop if she is getting triggered. Inform the spouse about what might be triggering (for my wife it is a food item and one specific song).
> 
> I never knew of her abuse for 30+ years. I am sure I triggered her many times because of my ignorance. How can she heal if I am triggering her? How can we have a real marriage if she experiences emotional trauma from me if I trigger her?


Thor, did your W goto trauma therapy for this, and include you in some appointments?

My W refuses to acknowledge her CSA as needing to be worked on any longer. She said it's part of her past, and she's over it. :banghead:

The past 8 months in therapy, the W and her IC have been focusing on why I'm such an inconsiderate jerk for not taking the garbage out that one time in 2006, letting my mother host Thanksgiving last year and not having it at our house like my W wanted to, or taking her purpose away by doing the dishes, grocery shopping, and doing the laundry (not just mine, but the whole family's laundry). Oh,.... and she's always waiting for me to come home because I'm always working. Hmmmm,.... sort of need to work so we have $ to live. :scratchhead:


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Really!?!? said:


> Thor, did your W goto trauma therapy for this, and include you in some appointments?
> 
> My W refuses to acknowledge her CSA as needing to be worked on any longer. She said it's part of her past, and she's over it. :banghead:
> 
> The past 8 months in therapy, the W and her IC have been focusing on why I'm such an inconsiderate jerk for not taking the garbage out that one time in 2006, letting my mother host Thanksgiving last year and not having it at our house like my W wanted to, or taking her purpose away by doing the dishes, grocery shopping, and doing the laundry (not just mine, but the whole family's laundry). Oh,.... and she's always waiting for me to come home because I'm always working. Hmmmm,.... sort of need to work so we have $ to live. :scratchhead:


This is a tough one, because she's probably convinced herself that she is over it. And if you don't think about the abuse itself much it's easy to convince yourself that you're over it. What's tougher to see are the emotional walls it causes you to put up, and I'm going to guess this is what's going on with your wife. She keeps walls up and avoids true intimacy with you, which is why she picks about insignificant things like the garbage. You know how when you're po'd at someone or just don't like then they can't even make toast right? It's similar to that. This is a tough situation for you because without her cooperation with this there's not much you can do. I know it took me many years to fully understand the lasting effects. You may ultimately have to consider whether you want to live like this. Sorry.
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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Really!?!? said:


> Thor, did your W goto trauma therapy for this, and include you in some appointments?


No. She has never had therapy and she refuses to go.



Really!?!? said:


> My W refuses to acknowledge her CSA as needing to be worked on any longer. She said it's part of her past, and she's over it. :banghead:


Exactly the same as here.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Really!?!? said:


> That's why as a spouse, it's like walking on eggshells all the time because you don't want to make any mistakes, as it may become a trigger source.


This summer has further confused me.

*Trigger Warning*: frank sexual discussion follows. Abuse survivors may want to skip this post.


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Early this summer she really screwed up with a major lie. She enrolled our 17 yr old son in a medical treatment which she knows I strongly oppose. She conspired to hide it from me.

While we were dating she had no problem with oral sex or swallowing. I know she did a lot of that with previous boyfriends in high school. Probably she did a lot more with many more men than she ever admitted to. There are hints of things in some old yearbooks of hers, and she has said in hindsight now she sees herself as having been promiscuous as a teen.

Then after we got married the swallowing stopped. She has always been willing when we have sex to engage in oral foreplay but never close to me climaxing. Why? I don't know. Sex became nearly non-existent, but she would do oral when we did have sex.

Two years ago, after finding out about her abuse I chalked it up to being related to her abuse. I don't know anything about her abuse, but the sudden dramatic change with oral to climax was simultaneous with her stopping sex.

She then did though start participating in and even initiating sex almost weekly about 2 yrs ago after telling me about her abuse. Still, no oral to climax. And of course I was now hyper sensitive to not wanting to trigger her. I stopped asking for morning sex or even morning snuggling. I presume her aversion to it is related to her CSA.

Then, this past summer, after she realized the enormity of her mistake, she initiated oral to completion several times. I am totally confused by this. So what was CSA related in the past with her? Anything? Everything?

And of course I cannot breathe a word to her about any of this. She has made CSA a radioactive topic to discuss.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Once I saw the warning I had to read. I like to think of myself as fully adapted and healed. Things trigger anger, but not PTSD, not fear, not pulling away, just anger.

Just like in any PTSD situation, connections to trigger don't always make sense. But I'll shoot out some thoughts based on my own experiences.

Ejaculating in her mouth is the ultimate in vulnerability, acceptance and acknowledgement of doing something solely for the pleasure of another. In victim mode, speaking for myself here, we are OWED and it is very hard to make ourselves do SOLEY for the pleasure of another, particularly something we've associated with feelings of powerlessness, feelings of worthlessness, and in your wife's case feelings to mask those other feelings (meaning she did it just to prove to herself that she wasn't damaged and could go on to enjoy a full sex life.) Add to all that, when a man ejaculates into our mouths, we are NOT in control, we feel as if we are not much more than a repository for his ejaculate, thus intensifying those feelings of worthlessness.

The fact that she knows she displeased you, she now knows she OWES you. She is in inviting you to even the score and I'm not sure you should take it without a twist.

Be very vocal about how powerless you are during a blowjob, how you are at her mercy, how fantastic this feels and how very much you love her for giving you such pleasure and the gift of her trust.

I have never felt powerful giving a blow job. I have never felt in control giving a blow job. Giving a blow job had always made me feel used and worthless. If he touched me during it, directed me in any way, those feelings intensified. In the last year I reached the final hurdle, for me. I gave up complete control and invited him to "have at it" hold my head, push me this way or that, force it in and hold it in. He was terrified remembering our early years when I nearly beat him up for touching me on my shoulder during a blow job. I still don't feel any power over him and wonder how other women report this. I do feel extraordinary power of myself! And that is my reward!


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> Once I saw the warning I had to read. I like to think of myself as fully adapted and healed. Things trigger anger, but not PTSD, not fear, not pulling away, just anger.


I am glad for you that you don't trigger PTSD.

And thank you for your thoughtful response. I am not sure exactly what you mean by don't take it without a twist. Are you referring to the next comment about vocalizing how enjoyable it is and thanking her for trusting me?

Your comments are interesting about the powerlessness of giving the bj. I have no idea what her abuse consisted of. What I do know is that she was quite prolific as a teen giving bj's, and she was quite comfortable doing it with me until we were engaged. Then it changed instantly. So now I presume it is related to her CSA, but who really knows.

This episode with her reminds me that Secondary Survivors are also traumatized. I worry about triggering her, or her doing something as you say because she now feels like she owes it to me which she finds emotionally traumatic due to the CSA. I felt guilty as hell after each of her bj's last summer.


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## Really!?!? (Sep 14, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> This is a tough one, because she's probably convinced herself that she is over it. And if you don't think about the abuse itself much it's easy to convince yourself that you're over it.


That's so clear the way you put that. It makes total sense to me now. I didn't see it that way from her perspective before.



> What's tougher to see are the emotional walls it causes you to put up, and I'm going to guess this is what's going on with your wife.


Exactly - we'll be living a normal loving life at home, then once she has a trigger "emerge", I'll see her transform right before my eyes. Her face changes with the "ghost mask", and the emotional walls go up. Sometimes this lasts a week, a month or sometimes 3 months. This latest one has lasted 4 months. Usually, she'll snap out of it,... but she's been so focused on our "dysfunctional" marriage, that she hasn't come out of this latest fog. It has become her current reality, if that makes sense.



> She keeps walls up and avoids true intimacy with you, which is why she picks about insignificant things like the garbage


Can I ask you a question? Why does she avoid true intimacy? She says she loves and cares about me,.... but she is not "in love" with me. In-between "fogs" we are in love, but when shes in her "fog", the intimacy evaporates.



> This is a tough situation for you because without her cooperation with this there's not much you can do.


This I know, and frustrates me.



> I know it took me many years to fully understand the lasting effects.


But you worked on it - I'm happy for you!



> You may ultimately have to consider whether you want to live like this. Sorry.


It's OK - she's moving out next week, and we'll be divorcing soon, again.

You know the old saying,.. _"Life is too short",.... _and neither of us want to live in a sexless marriage. Getting back to OP's original thread topic - the CSA ultimately eroded our sex life and marriage.


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## Really!?!? (Sep 14, 2013)

Thor said:


> This episode with her reminds me that Secondary Survivors are also traumatized. I worry about triggering her, or her doing something as you say because she now feels like she owes it to me which she finds emotionally traumatic due to the CSA. I felt guilty as hell after each of her bj's last summer.


I can relate to this - the first time I caused a trigger, was when I started carressing my W while she slept. She had just told me earlier that week, that she liked to be surprised sometimes while she slept. Well,.... that didn't go so well,....

She triggered heavily, and I felt horrible. I don't know why she told me about surprising her, then have it trigger her. Maybe she didn't know it was a possible trigger. I tried talking to her about for some time afterwards,... but she wouldn't talk about it. 

Ever since then 12 years ago, I've been worried about triggering her, and it's always impacted the freqency of our having sex. I of course wanted it much more than she,... although she said she wished I initiated sex more often. However, she would rarely inititate sex.

Thor, try talking to your W about your worries of triggering her if you can. Maybe more open communication on the subject might help you both. I know that the communication barrier that went up in my marriage, has been instrumental in our divorcing.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Really!?!? said:


> Thor, try talking to your W about your worries of triggering her if you can. Maybe more open communication on the subject might help you both. I know that the communication barrier that went up in my marriage, has been instrumental in our divorcing.


She has made the entire topic of CSA off limits, to include any of the effects it may have had on her.


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

H-J,

I noticed that you didn't like my earlier exercise suggestions, and that is fine. I was not aware at the time that you were so uncomfortable with the idea that your body arouses your husband. So, I've tried to think of other exercises but this is somewhat dependent on things about you that I don't currently know. For example, you claimed that you had no desire for sexual intimacy and yet you also said you masturbate. I assume that when you do masturbate that you think about men. There are some people who get aroused by inanimate objects; if you are in this class then the conversation would be quite different. But, if I assume that you do fantasize about men then what you've claimed is something of a contradiction. I also don't know what it was like early in your relationship. If there was more sex at that time then we would have another contradiction.

There is nothing wrong with being afraid. Almost everything that limits our behavior is the result of fear, whether that is fear of injury or death, fear of failure, fear of humiliation, or fear of loss. If you aren't moving forward because of fear then that is pretty much the same as other people who have phobias or compulsions. Another class of people though have paraphilias which means they do things not because of fear but because of the excited rush they feel. This includes things like gambling, compulsive shopping, and some sex-related behaviors. Exercises for fear and for paraphilias are quite different. To treat a fear, you need exposure and you learn over time that you can deal with the stress. Paraphilias though are the opposite, you don't want to do that behavior and instead need to find something else that gives you pleasure.

I'm going to assume though that your earlier description is about right. I believe you said that when you see that you arouse a man, it makes you feel scared and ashamed. Given your earlier experiences, this type of association is understandable. There are things you can do to change this association if you really want to. The simplest thing to do is some kind of stacking. Think of something that you really like and want. I don't know what that would be. It could be movies, cooking, painting, riding a bike, etc. Then you decide that you will only get that if you do the exercises. And those exercises have to include feeling the stress of arousing your husband (even if you don't then follow up with actual sex). Part of this does have to do with self image but if you were truly so uncomfortable with your own sexuality then it is difficult to image how you could be comfortable enough to masturbate. So, again, I seem to be missing some important details.

I'm also not sure if your view of sex is really accurate. Imagine that you could just walk down the street and fall in love with anyone. That wouldn't work; it would just be chaotic. So, there has to be some barrier to falling in love. But, if there is a barrier then you also have to have some way of getting through the barrier. Sex is one of the things that does that. This shouldn't be too much of a surprise since sexual feelings can be very intense. You mentioned earlier that your husband was being more understanding about you and not asking for sex. That is good for you, but it may also tend to erode his feelings for you. And, that is a problem.

If you can't have sex with your husband right now then you really need a substitute binder to keep the two of you from drifting apart. These binders are not easy to find. You need something that winds you up emotionally (in terms of fear or excitement) and that you can do together. So, for example, going skydiving, riding a zip line, or climbing a wall might be really scary; but since the two of you would be separate, it wouldn't work. I know that in the old Sears Tower in Chicago, they have an observation platform with a glass floor. For most people, walking onto this would be quite scary and if you did it while clinging to someone else, it would work as a binder (assuming it scared both of you).

But, since you probably don't have a glass observation deck handy, you probably need to find something else. Some simple things might work at first like if you held a large balloon between the two of you and both squeezed it until it popped. If both of you got up on a karaoke stage and sang, that might work unless one of you is actually good at singing. It has to be something you can do together and has to make both of you feel somewhat stressed. A live concert might work if you were both really enthusiastic about it. Some video games might work but only if the two of you are working on the same side (if you compete against each other, it will do the opposite) and you both liked it. Activities like these don't work if it makes either of you angry. You just want to feel a little excitement or fear, the butterflies in your stomach sensation and you want to share that with your partner.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Really liked your post scientia. Especially this part:



> I believe you said that when you see that you arouse a man, it makes you feel scared and ashamed. Given your earlier experiences, this type of association is understandable. There are things you can do to change this association if you really want to. The simplest thing to do is some kind of stacking. Think of something that you really like and want. I don't know what that would be. It could be movies, cooking, painting, riding a bike, etc. Then you decide that you will only get that if you do the exercises. And those exercises have to include feeling the stress of arousing your husband (even if you don't then follow up with actual sex).


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> and in your wife's case feelings to mask those other feelings (meaning she did it just to prove to herself that she wasn't damaged and could go on to enjoy a full sex life.) Add to all that, when a man ejaculates into our mouths, we are NOT in control, we feel as if we are not much more than a repository for his ejaculate, thus intensifying those feelings of worthlessness.


Let's say that were true in his wife's case. What if he got an under-mattress restraint and allowed himself to be restrained and blindfolded while she performed oral? That would seem to be a pretty direct change from powerlessness to quite a bit of power, assuming power is the only issue.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

scientia said:


> Let's say that were true in his wife's case. What if he got an under-mattress restraint and allowed himself to be restrained and blindfolded while she performed oral? That would seem to be a pretty direct change from powerlessness to quite a bit of power, assuming power is the only issue.


That's sort of how I desensitized myself. He couldn't touch me at all at first. Then he could just touch my shoulder, then my back, then move my hair.... 

Your approach is pragmatic desensitizing and reconditioning and it works, but only for those who want it to work. That's the huge problem with CSA survivors. Many don't want to work on themselves and mistakenly think they HAVE to relive it over and over in order to get over it. Using a pragmatic desensitizing approach to recondition responses works without reliving anything.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Anon, I meant to come back and comment about the mouth being only a sperm receptacle.

How is that any different than ejaculating in her VJ?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I don't know. Maybe it has to do with revulsion of ejaculate? I'm not terribly thrilled with the stuff but after motherhood and caregiving...not too much actively repulsed me anymore...


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