# If the realtionship continues the cheater always gets the best deal..



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

So there is a wonderful post on SI/Wayward from a person 5 years out. She basically says her life is great, really not even a word about the pain she caused her husband. The affairs happened and they suck. Not much more, basically I was really a crazy person when I did all this. 

I have been reading a lot of these blogs for a while now, not sure why. I think because for me as a person who hates injustice the injustice of it all really is an eye opener. It's kind of like a car crash type of thing. I have come to the conclusion the when you really look at it people who have affairs almost always get the best deal out of it. I mean REALLY get the best deal. This being said only if the couple stays together, but maybe even if the leave. I think most are not even capable of even understanding the hurt they have caused. It's sad but it is really true, if you don't have much of a conscience why not have an affair. Even society doesn't frown on you now a days. Your spouse will be upset but hell they will get over it, at least enough to stop hassling you about it. Really it is only painful for a while and only a long term personal problem if you have some shame, which if you are going to do this you really don't have much to begin with. 

I guess I always knew this, I mean cheaters very often win in sports. But man is it evident. It's just so much worse when you use other peoples emotion to get your victories. One of the reasons I believe in God is because I think I would truly go insane if I had to live in a world and think it was without justice. My sister told me once that she believes Hell is having to relive the pain you caused others from there point of view. I hope she is right. 

Anyway go read the post, especially if you are thinking of R, it gives you a good perspective of the kind of people who do this. I am sure in her mind this is a lovely post, there is obviously no shame (at least from mine). I wonder what her husband thinks of it. From her perspective it was the catalyst that lead to her happiness. All on his emotional back. There really are Vampires in this world, and too many of them.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I have been reading a lot of these blogs for a while now, not sure why. I think because for me as a person who hates injustice the injustice of it all really is an eye opener. It's kind of like a car crash type of thing. I have come to the conclusion the when you really look at it people who have affairs almost always get the best deal out of it.
> 
> My sister told me once that she believes Hell is having to relive the pain you caused others from there point of view. I hope she is right.
> 
> All on his emotional back. There really are Vampires in this world, and too many of them.


 @sokillme I will not kill you. You are flame to injustice.

Those that swim the depths see the dark hues, the carnage at the surface.

Those that swim at the surface care not about the depth. They swim, eyes "left-right", back over their shoulder. Never up, the Sun blinds them. All their friends and finny school mates course with them. They fear the sharks, and wish they were that ilk. 

Religion give its adherents hope. And hope gets you out of bed.


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## Florida_rosbif (Oct 18, 2015)

As you say, not clear how well the husband is doing , other than "everything's great now". The way I feel now I think the scars will stay for life, so she is maybe a tad blasé and if he blogged it would be a different story.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

This is one reason why I am not generally pro-reconciliation. 

The forgiven WS gets to have awesome, titillating dangerous sex with their AP. They get to live this second secret life of excitement, fun and romance unencumbered by marriage, kids and mortgages. And...even when they are caught, more often than not all they suffer is a period of embarrassment and shame followed by a couple of years of spats and arguments; but they come out four or five years later relatively unscathed. 

The BS on the other hand gets the all the gifts that keep on giving: humiliation... degradation...STDs...mind movies...anguish...depression...anxiety...fear...sleeplessness...self-loathing...shame...paranoia...anger...rage...confusion...insecurity...disillusionment............FOR YEARS AND YEARS....

Yeah. How equitable.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> This is one reason why I am not generally pro-reconciliation.
> 
> The forgiven WS gets to have awesome, titillating dangerous sex with their AP. They get to live this second secret life of excitement, fun and romance unencumbered by marriage, kids and mortgages. And...even when they are caught, more often than not all they suffer is a period of embarrassment and shame followed by a couple of years of spats and arguments; but they come out four or five years later relatively unscathed.
> 
> ...


This is why I never have a big problem with the other spouse going out and having a revenge affair, at least in some way they are even.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I am harder on waywards than most. 

That said, all of them cannot be categorized the same. Some spend a lifetime trying to make it up to their BS's, several of whom have been or are still on this site. Many more are just simply lost. A few are plain evil.

Nobody wins in infidelity, least of all the cheater.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

@sokillme, I have noticed nearly all of the threads you have started have a similar feel. It has the appearance of pain shopping. Look it up. I hope you find healing, brother.


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## rockon (May 18, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> This is one reason why I am not generally pro-reconciliation.
> 
> The forgiven WS gets to have awesome, titillating dangerous sex with their AP. They get to live this second secret life of excitement, fun and romance unencumbered by marriage, kids and mortgages. And...even when they are caught, more often than not all they suffer is a period of embarrassment and shame followed by a couple of years of spats and arguments; but they come out four or five years later relatively unscathed.
> 
> ...


Wish I could like this a 1000 times. If one has never been betrayed, count your blessings. What bandit mentioned above is so very accurate.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> This is one reason why I am not generally pro-reconciliation.
> 
> The forgiven WS gets to have awesome, titillating dangerous sex with their AP. They get to live this second secret life of excitement, fun and romance unencumbered by marriage, kids and mortgages. And...even when they are caught, more often than not all they suffer is a period of embarrassment and shame followed by a couple of years of spats and arguments; but they come out four or five years later relatively unscathed.
> 
> ...


The BS, if they hold it together, comes out with the knowledge they did the right thing. You also learn a lot about the nature of relationships.

The WS, if they have a conscience, lose part of themselves. They did what they did and they can never change it. They became, for a time, something they hate. For some WS, that doesn't matter a whole lot, but for others it does. 

I don't think it's necessarily as one sided as you think it is.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> @sokillme, I have noticed nearly all of the threads you have started have a similar feel. It has the appearance of pain shopping. Look it up. I hope you find healing, brother.


I don't know if it is pain shopping or more indignancy, I am not in pain. Though I have been affected by cheating those pains are long gone so I am not healing.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Florida_rosbif said:


> As you say, not clear how well the husband is doing , other than "everything's great now". The way I feel now I think the scars will stay for life, so she is maybe a tad blasé and *if he blogged it would be a different story.*


Indeed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Your right sokillme. My take away is a little different though. I don't view reconciliation as a gift per say to the WS. I look at it as simple gritting your teeth and saying if these conditions are meant and only if they are meant it is worth it. In short what could have been pure good has been diluted and mixed with toxic impurities but never the less some gold is there. 

I believe the first thing a BS should do is see a lawyer, protect their finances, establish custody guidelines for themselves with no regard to the WS. Then confront and let the BS ask for, and prove the marriage still has worth. In short divorcing is the first choice. Anything else is asking to live in limbo.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

PS any chance of shooting me a PM with a link? I am banned, why I am not quite sure.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

sokillme said:


> This is why I never have a big problem with the other spouse going out and having a revenge affair, at least in some way they are even.


:iagree:
Quoted for truth!


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

JohnA said:


> PS any chance of shooting me a PM with a link? I am banned, why I am not quite sure.


Probably because you spoke the truth


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> Nobody wins in infidelity, least of all the cheater.


I have to disagree. Anyone who gets to keep their marriage after an extended period of intentionally deceiving and inflicting pain on their spouse, while enjoying the excitement of an "affair" can only be thought of as the winner. Even if they went through a little difficult period after D-Day, they got the prize in the end.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

JohnA said:


> PS any chance of shooting me a PM with a link? I am banned, why I am not quite sure.


Clear your cache, you will longer be logged in and will be able to view the site like someone who is not a member. (banned as well):wink2:


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

The Middleman said:


> I have to disagree. Anyone who gets to keep their marriage after an extended period of intentionally deceiving and inflicting pain on their spouse, while enjoying the excitement of an "affair" can only be thought of as the winner. Even if they went through a little difficult period after D-Day, they got the prize in the end.


I see it like Barry Bonds, A-Rod, Lance Armstrong. They might even be disgraced for a time, but they still get to keep there millions, and all the enjoyment that came out of their cheating. Same with the people who kept their marriage.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

The Middleman said:


> :iagree:
> Quoted for truth!


Plus in any other contract when one party brakes the contract the agreement is over. I don't understand why people think of marriage differently then that. Once there is cheating in marriage the contract is null and void.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

I believe some percentage of cheaters view their affairs as learning experiences, with wonderful memories of amazing sex they can think about when having sex with their clueless spouses.

I think part of the reason my W reduced and then stopped having sex with me after I recovered our marriage, is that she could no longer fantasize about OM-1 as guilt over the improved way I was treating her started creeping in.

Another percentage of cheaters feel they are doing their spouse a favor by recommitting to them, they gave up what they wanted most in their life for you, some of the statements my W has said support that that is how she felt.

I also get the impression that deep down my W feels she is morally superior for escaping the affair, although it's a bit of self deception as the OM dumped her most likely.

Tamat


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

The Middleman said:


> I have to disagree. Anyone who gets to keep their marriage after an extended period of intentionally deceiving and inflicting pain on their spouse, while enjoying the excitement of an "affair" can only be thought of as the winner. Even if they went through a little difficult period after D-Day, they got the prize in the end.


Talk to some of the genuinely remorseful waywards here on TAM and ask them if they feel like a winner. There are some who can't forgive themselves for what they did. One even said she'd sell her soul to the devil if she could take back what she did, and what she did pales in comparison to what other cheaters have done.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

JohnA said:


> Your right sokillme. My take away is a little different though. I don't view reconciliation as a gift per say to the WS. I look at it as simple gritting your teeth and saying if these conditions are meant and only if they are meant it is worth it. In short what could have been pure good has been diluted and mixed with toxic impurities but never the less some gold is there.
> 
> I believe the first thing a BS should do is see a lawyer, protect their finances, establish custody guidelines for themselves with no regard to the WS. Then confront and let the BS ask for, and prove the marriage still has worth. In short divorcing is the first choice. Anything else is asking to live in limbo.


Not sure what you mean by "divorcing is the first choice" but the rest of it is exactly right and very well put. The analogy about gold and toxic impurities is especially good.


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

Not sure my H feels this way. Two years plus out from the last D day and he's still in the basement. I haven't invited him back to the bed and he is left to wonder if I am still in touch with my EA partner but knows he has no right to ask. 
Is he suffering for what he did? Yes, he is. But he still has his family intact and the facade of a normal marriage. Sometimes I think it's more than he deserves, other times I think he's suffered enough. Jeez, cheating messes everything up.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

becareful2 said:


> Talk to some of the genuinely remorseful waywards here on TAM and ask them if they feel like a winner. There are some who can't forgive themselves for what they did. One even said she'd sell her soul to the devil if she could take back what she did, and what she did pales in comparison to what other cheaters have done.


I've read what many have said and I personally don't buy it. I suscribe to the theory that they are sorry they got caught ... and we very well might be thinking of the same people.


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

The Middleman said:


> I've read what many have said and I personally don't buy it. I suscribe to the theory that they are sorry they got caught ... and we very well might be thinking of the same people.


The women I referred to can't forgive themselves. One locks herself in the bathroom about once a week and silently cries, while the other wakes up early and cries in the kitchen. If the cheater doesn't have much of a conscience, then they can rugsweep or see they have benefited in some way from their affair. However, if they do have a conscience, it will eat them alive, continually, week after week, month after month. They'll get triggers that remind them of what they did. It will be like a boulder that weighs heavily around their neck. Another woman whom we haven't heard from tried to OD on pills after her affair due to extreme remorse. Her husband saved her, I believe, and they're doing much better. Again, I don't see any winner in those cases. Out of all the stories I've read, those three women stand out, and I would generously offer R to each, but 99% of the rest, I would throw to the curb and never look back. It all depends on if they have a conscience.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

becareful2 said:


> The women I referred to can't forgive themselves. One locks herself in the bathroom about once a week and silently cries, while the other wakes up early and cries in the kitchen. If the cheater doesn't have much of a conscience, then they can rugsweep or see they have benefited in some way from their affair. However, if they do have a conscience, it will eat them alive, continually, week after week, month after month. They'll get triggers that remind them of what they did. It will be like a boulder that weighs heavily around their neck. Another woman whom we haven't heard from tried to OD on pills after her affair due to extreme remorse.


I get what you are saying, but I find it hard to empathize or sympathize. What they did, they not only did to themselves, but to their spouse and children. Does it compare to the pain they put their spouse through? I think not. 

Most will call me to task for saying this, but waywards will only really comprehend the damage they caused if it happens back to them. How may waywards have said here that they would leave their spouse if the spouse had a revenge affair? A few that I remember.


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

The Middleman said:


> I get what you are saying, but I find it hard to empathize or sympathize. What they did, they not only did to themselves, but to their spouse and children. Does it compare to the pain they put their spouse through? I think not.
> 
> Most will call me to task for saying this, but waywards will only really comprehend the damage they caused if it happens back to them. How may waywards have said here that they would leave their spouse if the spouse had a revenge affair? A few that I remember.


I agree with the first paragraph, and find it hard to disagree with the second, in that waywards do not really understand the breadth and scope of the pain they inflict on their spouse unless the shoe were on the other foot. I guess my reason for posting in this thread is that I disagree that waywards *always* get the best deal.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

The Middleman said:


> I have to disagree. Anyone who gets to keep their marriage after an extended period of intentionally deceiving and inflicting pain on their spouse, while enjoying the excitement of an "affair" can only be thought of as the winner. Even if they went through a little difficult period after D-Day, they got the prize in the end.



Not always necessarily. Read a thread before where the wife was constantly beaten and nearly drowned by dear ole hubby. She cheated after he tried drowning her. After that, she told him what she did and he acts all happy and nice and stop abusing her. She went into depression because of her guilt and started harming herself. But at least he stopped beating her. Well, I cannot be sure since she stop posting. Perhaps he started beating her again as her guilt would probably make her feel like she deserves being beaten and the children are just beaten because well, when the wife can no longer take too much of a beating, the children need to take some of that as well. At least he gets to keep a slave-like person to look after his whims because she is so afraid of him and children that are quiet because they are also afraid of him.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Mr.Fisty said:


> Not always necessarily. Read a thread before where the wife was constantly beaten and nearly drowned by dear ole hubby. She cheated after he tried drowning her. After that, she told him what she did and he acts all happy and nice and stop abusing her. She went into depression because of her guilt and started harming herself. But at least he stopped beating her. Well, I cannot be sure since she stop posting. Perhaps he started beating her again as her guilt would probably make her feel like she deserves being beaten and the children are just beaten because well, when the wife can no longer take too much of a beating, the children need to take some of that as well. At least he gets to keep a slave-like person to look after his whims because she is so afraid of him and children that are quiet because they are also afraid of him.


 @Mr.Fisty you make a good point. Sometimes an evil person can get cheated on. Doesn't wash away the bad stuff they do.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

blahfridge said:


> Not sure my H feels this way. Two years plus out from the last D day and he's still in the basement. I haven't invited him back to the bed and he is left to wonder if I am still in touch with my EA partner but knows he has no right to ask.
> Is he suffering for what he did? Yes, he is. But he still has his family intact and the facade of a normal marriage. Sometimes I think it's more than he deserves, other times I think he's suffered enough. Jeez, cheating messes everything up.


Heartwarming.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

becareful2 said:


> Talk to some of the genuinely remorseful waywards here on TAM and ask them if they feel like a winner. There are some who can't forgive themselves for what they did. One even said she'd sell her soul to the devil if she could take back what she did, and what she did pales in comparison to what other cheaters have done.


Yes this is true there are a few like that. I am not sure what changes in them though. It seems strange to me. Why only now to the realize?


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Disagree the cheater always gets the best deal if the relationship continues.

My wife had an EA because I was not enough for her, emotionally.

Due to my demands, she ended the EA, we firebombed that relationship, which was one of her lifelong best friends.

She hasn't spoken with that friend in 4+ years and he is removed from her life.

She still has emotional need issues and struggles with her self worth.

Neither of us "won", but ultimately, I get to have a wife who no longer has a male BFF. She loses a close friend. She still feels emotionally unfulfilled. I'm no longer hurting from her EA. We have generally mended fences, while I try to be more supportive.

Net net, she is generally in the same place. And I am better off.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

becareful2 said:


> The women I referred to can't forgive themselves. One locks herself in the bathroom about once a week and silently cries, while the other wakes up early and cries in the kitchen. If the cheater doesn't have much of a conscience, then they can rugsweep or see they have benefited in some way from their affair. However, if they do have a conscience, it will eat them alive, continually, week after week, month after month. They'll get triggers that remind them of what they did. It will be like a boulder that weighs heavily around their neck. Another woman whom we haven't heard from tried to OD on pills after her affair due to extreme remorse. Her husband saved her, I believe, and they're doing much better. Again, I don't see any winner in those cases. Out of all the stories I've read, those three women stand out, and I would generously offer R to each, but 99% of the rest, I would throw to the curb and never look back. It all depends on if they have a conscience.


But why? Why only after do they develop a conscience?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

becareful2 said:


> The women I referred to can't forgive themselves. One locks herself in the bathroom about once a week and silently cries, while the other wakes up early and cries in the kitchen. If the cheater doesn't have much of a conscience, then they can rugsweep or see they have benefited in some way from their affair. However, if they do have a conscience, it will eat them alive, continually, week after week, month after month. They'll get triggers that remind them of what they did. It will be like a boulder that weighs heavily around their neck. Another woman whom we haven't heard from tried to OD on pills after her affair due to extreme remorse. Her husband saved her, I believe, and they're doing much better. Again, I don't see any winner in those cases. Out of all the stories I've read, those three women stand out, and I would generously offer R to each, but 99% of the rest, I would throw to the curb and never look back. It all depends on if they have a conscience.



Another thing about these stories. The person getting cheated on still gets the short end of the stick because now they is stuck with a spouse who cheated on them and need constant reassurance. That's not a marriage. Why should the person who should rightfully be hurt because they got the crapped on have to be the one comforting the person who crapped on them. That is not a happy life even if the cheater is remorseful. People want a partner who can be present not someone who is broken by there own actions, though very sad for them it still really doesn't fix the marriage. 

I can't imagine having a person cheat on me and then expect me to prop them up for feeling guilty about cheating on me, seriously this seems almost manipulative in a way.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

@Wazza hi,

What I meant was the BS should have a carefully planned divorced with the aid of an attorney in regards to knowing first how to maximize custody and second a realistic of their finances post divorce and again how to maximize as much as possible. Then explore the posdibility of reconciliation. Knowing you have a solid option allows the BS to feel in control. This echoes the concept of "to save a marriage, firth you must be prepared to lose it". 

I've posted this thought before and received very negative feedback that it was a gift to the WS. Fine, but it could be viewed as a gift the BS gives themselves because the WS enabled them to consider by showing remorse, trans, etc. That the afterschocks will aways be oartenity of the marriage. Yet the reconciled marriage is worth it to the BS to endure because their emotional needs and physical needs are meet and a great deal of healing has occurred. This is actually somewhat cold hearted view based partially on a transactional POV.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Gabriel said:


> Disagree the cheater always gets the best deal if the relationship continues.
> 
> My wife had an EA because I was not enough for her, emotionally.
> 
> ...


No your not. You could do better.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

sokillme said:


> But why? Why only after do they develop a conscience?


Best guess? What people often imagine will happen if they get caught is not what actually happens. The reality is what triggers the conscience.

For example, a wife believes her husband doesn't love her anymore. She thinks he has detached. She contemplates an affair with a man at work who has been wooing her. She thinks that, if she should be caught, her husband won't really care very much beyond maybe a wounded ego and some bruising to his pride. She has the affair and has a D Day. Her husband reacts in an obviously brokenhearted way. Clearly, he wasn't detached and did/does love her. Conscience activates.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> Best guess? What people often imagine will happen if they get caught is not what actually happens. The reality is what triggers the conscience.
> 
> For example, a wife believes her husband doesn't love her anymore. She thinks he has detached. She contemplates an affair with a man at work who has been wooing her. She thinks that, if she should be caught, her husband won't really care very much beyond maybe a wounded ego and some bruising to his pride. She has the affair and has a D Day. Her husband reacts in an obviously brokenhearted way. Clearly, he wasn't detached and did/does love her. Conscience activates.


That doesn't really discount my premise though, the husband still gets the worst of it.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> I get what you are saying, but I find it hard to empathize or sympathize. What they did, they not only did to themselves, but to their spouse and children. Does it compare to the pain they put their spouse through? I think not.
> 
> Most will call me to task for saying this, but waywards will only really comprehend the damage they caused if it happens back to them. How may waywards have said here that they would leave their spouse if the spouse had a revenge affair? A few that I remember.


If the only way to understand how it feels to be a BS is to be a BS, doesn't it follow that the only way to understand how it feels to be a WS is to be one?

You can either empathise without personally experiencing something or you can't.

Edit to add : my wife believed, incorrectly, that I had had a revenge affair. She not only didn't leave, she didn't even feel she had the right to say anything.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

[/U]


sokillme said:


> But why? Why only after do they develop a conscience?


With my wife it was the other way around. For a variety of reasons, her conscience, which is normally well developed almost to a Ned Flanders-esque level, took a holiday.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Wazza said:


> If the only way to understand how it feels to be a BS is to be a BS, doesn't it follow that the only way to understand how it feels to be a WS is to be one?
> 
> You can either empathise without personally experiencing something or you can't.


Say they both feel the same amount of pain afterwords. The cheater got all the exciting sex and attention before hand. The non-cheater just got the doubt. BS still gets the worst end of the deal.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> I am harder on waywards than most.
> 
> That said, all of them cannot be categorized the same. Some spend a lifetime trying to make it up to their BS's, several of whom have been or are still on this site. Many more are just simply lost. A few are plain evil.
> 
> Nobody wins in infidelity, least of all the cheater.


*Begging to differ, the cheater most always has the skewed perception that they are quite adept at "pulling the wool" over the "betrayed's" eyes, the sadder fact of the matter remains that they are almost always "found out" to not only be a cheater, but an equally impressive, self-serving liar as well!

In the due course of time, they may think that they have successfully and deceitfully fooled everyone, but they will ultimately have to stand naked before God to account and to remorsefully exhort for their earthly, selfish acts of infidelity and deceit! 

Of that I am certain!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## weltschmerz (Feb 18, 2016)

I just like to add that once you've made the decision to reconcile, you've basically boxed yourself up in the wheelie bin. There's just no point wondering about who has the better deal. I am not a fan of reconciliation when things have crossed the physical boundaries. The stink is too much for me to handle but there have been people who've borne the stench and continue to do so but I'm sure they would've driven themselves nuts moaning about the injustice. Onward and upward, lads.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

I went over to SI and read the "Five Years" post. The only good thing I saw was she at least used Paragraphs. For some reason most of the SI posters are nothing walls of Text. 

SI... Paragraphs separating ideas, PLEASE!


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

sokillme said:


> This is why I never have a big problem with the other spouse going out and having a revenge affair, at least in some way they are even.


Nah, they will never be even because that initial transgression is such a game changer anything after that is picking up pieces of the wreckage and trying to put it together.

If one is hurt then acknowledge that hurt and use it to get out of that relationship and never look back.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

I tend to agree with the OP in that the cheater almost always comes out ahead when the smoke clears. It's just plain reality. I am also the type that feels if my spouse cheats on me and I keep her around, I would likely have a revenge affair. I have no need for an affair, but it would be the likely scenario for getting my pride back and to let her share in some of the pain. Yeah, I know I would lose my moral "high ground" but that means very little when your spouse has stabbed you in the back.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

I read the thread you are talking about. She appears to even now put much of the blame on her husband. She also talks like she is a completely new person and doesn't recognize her old self. I think people can change some, but I always have to question if the change can be that drastic or if they are just deceiving themselves.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

TX-SC said:


> I read the thread you are talking about. She appears to even now put much of the blame on her husband. She also talks like she is a completely new person and doesn't recognize her old self. I think people can change some, but I always have to question if the change can be that drastic or if they are just deceiving themselves.


Don't forget - there are a lot of snakes over there who do a whole lot of show-boating on the Wayward board purely for their BSs benefit, because they KNOW their BS is reading their posts (and posting on the BS side). If *anyone* thinks for one minute that any of those particular cheaters are going to make a confession or say anything to contradict the lies they already told their BSs on D-Day, then I want some of what they're smoking. These cheaters are ALL about posting how sorry they are, and how they can't live with their guilt and how they've changed and become SUCH a better person and how they'll never cheat again and how they loooooooove their BS, and on and on. It's actually laughable when you know their BS is over on Wayward hoovering up every single word of their placating posts.

In reality, a good many of them are probably on their burner phones setting up dates while they're simultaneously posting on Wayward about their deep sorrow for what they've done. :awink:

The delusion over there makes my head hurt.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Wazza said:


> [/U]
> 
> With my wife it was the other way around. For a variety of reasons, her conscience, which is normally well developed almost to a Ned Flanders-esque level, took a holiday.


Flanders comes across as kind of sanctimonious. To me that type of personality has just the perfect ego to be a cheater. In this case it has to do with pride.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

JohnA said:


> PS any chance of shooting me a PM with a link? I am banned, why I am not quite sure.


Oh, @JohnA, I see thy words. Is it your Ghost or your Spirit that doth type the above words?

If thee be banned, it must be your Post Partum moment, whereby one hand gets lopped off, while the other types............ madly.

And now Thee be in Limboland, not knowing who {done it} and why the blow was struck.

Oh, John A, now thee are dubbed, "The Sloop, John D., with "No Sale" showing on your register tape and no wind to push you home. Adrift and in limbo.

Those of us who have resided there have warmed the seat for you!


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

BobSimmons said:


> Nah, they will never be even because that initial transgression is such a game changer anything after that is picking up pieces of the wreckage and trying to put it together.
> 
> If one is hurt then acknowledge that hurt and use it to get out of that relationship and never look back.


Don't get me wrong, I am not saying it is healthy. I believe the best revenge is to ghost, myself. Act like the person you were with died, because in a sense from the WS perceptions they did.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

It is called shunning and when a group shuns effectively it is devastating to the person being shunned.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

arbitrator said:


> *Begging to differ, the cheater most always has the skewed perception that they are quite adept at "pulling the wool" over the "betrayed's" eyes, the sadder fact of the matter remains that they are almost always "found out" to not only be a cheater, but an equally impressive, self-serving liar as well!
> 
> In the due course of time, they may think that they have successfully and deceitfully fooled everyone, but they will ultimately have to stand naked before God to account and to remorsefully exhort for their earthly, selfish acts of infidelity and deceit!
> 
> ...


I often wonder if the WS who are continuing to live with hysterical guilt even after the is over for years are really still hiding stuff from the past, or the present.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Flanders comes across as kind of sanctimonious. To me that type of personality has just the perfect ego to be a cheater. In this case it has to do with pride.


You're taking the analogy too far. 

My wife has a conscience. That was my point. She didn't just develop it after the fact.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

TX-SC said:


> I tend to agree with the OP in that the cheater almost always comes out ahead when the smoke clears. It's just plain reality. I am also the type that feels if my spouse cheats on me and I keep her around, I would likely have a revenge affair. I have no need for an affair, but it would be the likely scenario for getting my pride back and to let her share in some of the pain. Yeah, I know I would lose my moral "high ground" but that means very little when your spouse has stabbed you in the back.


I feel the same as you on this Tx-Sc ... I've discussed this with my husband.. I told him I am the type of person that would NEED to get back in order to forgive.. whether this is right or wrong makes little difference to me.. I know what I'd need - I'd want him to feel the pain, the sheer jealousy...if he didn't care.. I'd know he never loved me anyway..

I completely understand those who've contemplated or had revenge affairs... I don't think I could get past something like this -unless the score was evened somehow..that's just me, my humanness.


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

I will never stop hating myself for not divorcing my cheating wife after d-day. I lied when I told myself that I could move past it - that time heals all wounds. I was a coward and used my son as an excuse for staying. That a good father would never leave the kids mother. What a crock of ****. I was a great dad and nothing his mom could do would have changed that fact.

She got over on me. Not just that she screwed two guys and had one move in for a couple weeks. Not just the humiliation of her disgusting slu*ty behavior. She got me to accept being treated like a dog - a scared puppy. The strength I had melted when it was all on the line. That's not her fault - that is all on me. But she got the benefits. She got all that sex with OM and I got stabbed in the heart. She will never get it - I do not believe any WW gets it. But lots of BHS know exactly what I mean. There is a big part of me that hates a small part of her with a vengeance and that will never change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I feel the same as you on this Tx-Sc ... I've discussed this with my husband.. I told him I am the type of person that would NEED to get back in order to forgive.. whether this is right or wrong makes little difference to me.. I know what I'd need - I'd want him to feel the pain, the sheer jealousy...if he didn't care.. I'd know he never loved me anyway..
> 
> I completely understand those who've contemplated or had revenge affairs... I don't think I could get past something like this -unless the score was evened somehow..that's just me, my humanness.


I would feel the same, but I love her and it would hurt my soul to hurt her so I would have to leave. This is one of the main reasons why there would be no R for me.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

drifter777 said:


> I will never stop hating myself for not divorcing my cheating wife after d-day. I lied when I told myself that I could move past it - that time heals all wounds. I was a coward and used my son as an excuse for staying. That a good father would never leave the kids mother. What a crock of ****. I was a great dad and nothing his mom could do would have changed that fact.
> 
> She got over on me. Not just that she screwed two guys and had one move in for a couple weeks. Not just the humiliation of her disgusting slu*ty behavior. She got me to accept being treated like a dog - a scared puppy. The strength I had melted when it was all on the line. That's not her fault - that is all on me. But she got the benefits. She got all that sex with OM and I got stabbed in the heart. She will never get it - I do not believe any WW gets it. But lots of BHS know exactly what I mean. There is a big part of me that hates a small part of her with a vengeance and that will never change.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you feel that way, I say ghost. Still not to late to take your power back. It's a bright blue world out there.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

sokillme said:


> I would feel the same, but I love her and it would hurt my soul to hurt her so I would have to leave. This is one of the main reasons why there would be no R for me.


 No R = no reconciliation I assume.. if she ripped your heart out.. I am not one to understand why you would have a problem THEN hurting her... (she would deserve it !!)

It's interesting as people are all over the map on this...I did agree with your opening post though...I felt it was very TRUE. 

So many have experienced betrayal, infidelity...and still many times what we SAY we would do (thinking about it) may not be what we do at all...until we've lived it, walking through something... we just don't know...

My husband is one of those who wouldn't have a revenge affair -he says that's just not how he is made up.. saying it wouldn't solve anything... He's even went as far as to say he'd forgive me and still want us to stay together but he'd be VERY VERY HURT because of what he thought we had, and shared.. and ANGRY ... I am not as forgiving as him.. I'd want blood, revenge, his balls (ok some exaggeration there).... I'd want to hurt the person who hurt me, whether he was my world or not at one time.. I could turn stone cold & vengeful in betrayal.. it wouldn't be pretty..


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

sokillme said:


> If you feel that way, I say ghost. Still not to late to take your power back. It's a bright blue world out there.


I'm not detailing the whole thing again here. It's not possible at this time or I'd be gone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

sokillme said:


> This is why I never have a big problem with the other spouse going out and having a revenge affair, at least in some way they are even.


Yeah, I'm not adverse to revenge. But the anecdotal evidence I have seen consistently shows that the revenging BS often just ends up feeling worse, because they have compromised their integrity and lowered themselves to the same selfish amorality as their WS. They lose whatever integrity they had. If anything, a the BS should desire to preserve their integrity and self respect, now that everything else that made them feel human has been stripped away from them.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

TX-SC said:


> I tend to agree with the OP in that the cheater almost always comes out ahead when the smoke clears. It's just plain reality. I am also the type that feels if my spouse cheats on me and I keep her around, I would likely have a revenge affair. I have no need for an affair, but it would be the likely scenario for getting my pride back and to let her share in some of the pain. Yeah, I know I would lose my moral "high ground" but that means very little when your spouse has stabbed you in the back.


Is it getting your pride back, or is it just wanting to have the power of choice? You don't get to choose to be a BS. 

I think that is what enraged me the most when I went through my ordeal. My choice was taken away from me. I was robbed.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Yeah. I have it SO much better than him. He's not the one still crying every day a year later. Telling people at work your eyes are puffy because you're sick. (Even though you are sick, but it has nothing to do with your eyes). Answering the phone when your mom calls and again playing it off that you're sick and just stuffy, that you haven't just been bawling wishing you could change what you did.

He doesn't drive down the road and temporarily forget where they are because he's fantasizing about driving his car into a tree. He isn't the one that's thought about packing up and leaving and going ghost on everyone, including family because what he did is too hard to carry. 

He's not the one who has ignored 5 texts and 3 phone calls from his sister today because he just can't people today because life is just too f^cking heavy. 

He's gone out 5 times this week while I've been lost in myself. And yeah, he cheated too. When this doesn't work, and it's not going to, it won't be because he cheated. It'll be because *I* cheated. I will lose the one that meant the most to me because I was too stupid and too drunk to do the right thing. That's not winning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

RWB said:


> I went over to SI and read the "Five Years" post. The only good thing I saw was she at least used Paragraphs. For some reason most of the SI posters are nothing walls of Text.
> 
> SI... Paragraphs separating ideas, PLEASE!


Stay away from that place. You're already warped enough.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

LosingHim said:


> Yeah. I have it SO much better than him. He's not the one still crying every day a year later. Telling people at work your eyes are puffy because you're sick. (Even though you are sick, but it has nothing to do with your eyes). Answering the phone when your mom calls and again playing it off that you're sick and just stuffy, that you haven't just been bawling wishing you could change what you did.
> 
> He doesn't drive down the road and temporarily forget where they are because he's fantasizing about driving his car into a tree. He isn't the one that's thought about packing up and leaving and going ghost on everyone, including family because what he did is too hard to carry.
> 
> ...


MadHatters endure a special kind of hell. I'm sorry you are feeling blue. What makes you truly special is that you get it. You are a rarity. 

I still think you deserve better, and you are one of the few I've said that to.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

drifter777 said:


> I'm not detailing the whole thing again here. It's not possible at this time or I'd be gone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hope one day you can make it possible.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> Yeah, I'm not adverse to revenge. But the anecdotal evidence I have seen consistently shows that the revenging BS often just ends up feeling worse, because they have compromised their integrity and lowered themselves to the same selfish amorality as their WS. They lose whatever integrity they had. If anything, a the BS should desire to preserve their integrity and self respect, now that everything else that made them feel human has been stripped away from them.


I don't think being with someone else is a loss of integrity per say, this is because I believe the marriage is over, the contract it void. I don't think you are cheating. Unless you recommit at some point. I wouldn't do though because I wouldn't want to do anything that involves other human beings out of malice. This would be the integrity I wouldn't want to compromise, the marriage has nothing to do with it though. I don't want to do actions that are intentionally meant to hurt someone, especially when there would be another person involved. 

I do however think it's foolish to keep a contract when only one person follows the rules of the contract. You are putting yourself at a unwise disadvantage. Even if you stay together you should get divorced in my opinion, then see if you want to remarry. This also a reason why I would ghost, there really is no reason to stick around, the contract is now void, and I sure as hell ain't going to make a contract with a cheater. Wouldn't make one with a thief either.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> Yeah. I have it SO much better than him. He's not the one still crying every day a year later. Telling people at work your eyes are puffy because you're sick. (Even though you are sick, but it has nothing to do with your eyes). Answering the phone when your mom calls and again playing it off that you're sick and just stuffy, that you haven't just been bawling wishing you could change what you did.
> 
> He doesn't drive down the road and temporarily forget where they are because he's fantasizing about driving his car into a tree. He isn't the one that's thought about packing up and leaving and going ghost on everyone, including family because what he did is too hard to carry.
> 
> ...


First you're rare, second you both cheated so this isn't the scenario I posted about.

Also if he cheated first then you didn't cheat, like I said in my other posts, you had no contract to cheat on.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> Is it getting your pride back, or is it just wanting to have the power of choice? You don't get to choose to be a BS.
> 
> I think that is what enraged me the most when I went through my ordeal. My choice was taken away from me. I was robbed.


No, you don't get to choose that, but you do get to choose what happens after discovery. This is what so many people seem to have an issue with. You do have a choice. I also tend to agree with the previous poster who said that cheating nullifies the wedding contract/vows. So, a revenge affair isn't cheating per se unless you choose up front to R and forgive. If you do that, then don't cheat. But, if you simply say "I'm not sure what I want." then you could say that in your mind it's not cheating. It's his or her responsibility to win you back and convince you that they are worth more to you than someone new who has never cheated on you. Then the choice is again back to you. Do you forgive and R or do you walk away? 

I simply don't buy the notion that a spouse, "compartmentalized" the A. There is no way that you can cheat and not know that your actions may leave you single and divorced. In that regard, you are choosing the A over your marriage. You have to say to yourself, "This is worth losing my spouse over". There is no way around it. That's not to say someone can't change their mind afterwards and have remorse. But at the time, they knew damn well what was at stake. 

A drunken ONS might be forgivable, but if you put yourself in that position to begin with you have very little to justify your actions. A long term affair or one that happens even twice is a calculated betrayal. 

People, you have a choice. 

If my wife cheated on me after 20 years of marriage, what would I do? I'd probably divorce. If not, I'd for sure put the marriage on hold while I sample some of the divorced soccer moms in the area. I'm sure I could seduce some of these young 35-40 year old divorcees. Heck, I'm a banjo player!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

But then again, life is not perfect and sometimes bad stuff happens to good people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

drifter777 said:


> I'm not detailing the whole thing again here. It's not possible at this time or I'd be gone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is it on another thread? 

In as much as I originally stayed for the kids, I guess that was me too at one point.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Is it getting your pride back, or is it just wanting to have the power of choice? You don't get to choose to be a BS.
> 
> I think that is what enraged me the most when I went through my ordeal. My choice was taken away from me. I was robbed.


You never totally have freedom of choice, but you can control it within boundaries. I think for me, figuring things out so that I felt I had the control I could reasonably expect was key.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

TX-SC said:


> No, you don't get to choose that, but you do get to choose what happens after discovery. This is what so many people seem to have an issue with. You do have a choice. I also tend to agree with the previous poster who said that cheating nullifies the wedding contract/vows. So, a revenge affair isn't cheating per se unless you choose up front to R and forgive. If you do that, then don't cheat. But, if you simply say "I'm not sure what I want." then you could say that in your mind it's not cheating. It's his or her responsibility to win you back and convince you that they are worth more to you than someone new who has never cheated on you. Then the choice is again back to you. Do you forgive and R or do you walk away?
> 
> I simply don't buy the notion that a spouse, "compartmentalized" the A. There is no way that you can cheat and not know that your actions may leave you single and divorced. In that regard, you are choosing the A over your marriage. You have to say to yourself, "This is worth losing my spouse over". There is no way around it. That's not to say someone can't change their mind afterwards and have remorse. But at the time, they knew damn well what was at stake.
> 
> ...


They say a gentleman is someone who can play the banjo and chooses not to 

I get what you are saying about long term affairs being a choice and they know what's at stake, and in a sense it's true, but for my wife it kind of wasn't. I put it down to the fog they always talk about. She was literally crazy in some of the things she did. I think I'm her head she knew the risk but she didn't really get it in her gut, if that makes sense.

It's not something I totally understand, and I don't think she does either.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

SimplyAmorous said:


> No R = no reconciliation I assume.. if she ripped your heart out.. I am not one to understand why you would have a problem THEN hurting her... (she would deserve it !!)
> 
> It's interesting as people are all over the map on this...I did agree with your opening post though...I felt it was very TRUE.
> 
> ...


If I felt THIS way, I would take a life. I would not stoop to the cheaters level. Punishment would be absolute.

Luckily, I am rational.

I hope you show that same passion to your husband for his love and fidelity; loose the demon for his good behavior........too! Let the sparks and kisses fly!


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

I don't believe that people ever benefit from doing the wrong thing. It mightn't come back on them today or tomorrow, but one thing we can be sure of; Karma is a b!tch who will demand payment sooner or later...

I used to think this was a load of nonsense, but I've now lived too long to not believe that it's true.


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

Not sure my H feels this way. Two years plus out from the last D day and he's still in the basement. I haven't invited him back to the bed and he is left to wonder if I am still in touch with my EA partner but knows he has no right to ask.
Is he suffering for what he did? Yes, he is. But he still has his family intact and the facade of a normal marriage. Sometimes I think it's more than he deserves, other times I think he's suffered enough. Jeez, cheating messes everything up. 



bandit.45 said:


> Heartwarming.


Spare me the sarcasm, please. If you don't have a constructive response, then don't bother to respond at all. It really bugs me sometimes how blithe some people are about another's pain on this site. It's one of the reasons I rarely post about my own situation. I was tempted to offer a two word response, but it would get me banned.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

sokillme said:


> I think because for me as a person who hates injustice the injustice of it all really is an eye opener. .


I think you should figure out why do you feel so much injustice out of injustice, not being disrespectful, but some childhood upbringing might have something to do with it. 
This world is full of injustices and they aren't going to end anytime soon......infidelity is clearly one of them....but we also cage animals in confined spaces for a short lived cruel life, and then slaughter them to eat them and get away with it....just a thought.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

blahfridge said:


> Not sure my H feels this way. Two years plus out from the last D day and he's still in the basement. I haven't invited him back to the bed and he is left to wonder if I am still in touch with my EA partner but knows he has no right to ask.
> Is he suffering for what he did? Yes, he is. But he still has his family intact and the facade of a normal marriage. Sometimes I think it's more than he deserves, other times I think he's suffered enough. Jeez, cheating messes everything up.


While I don't know your story, I get the sense that his reaction to your ea was having his own affair, while I get your anger, but aren't you a bit hypocritical in the sense it all started with you?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

SunCMars said:


> If I felt THIS way, I would take a life. I would not stoop to the cheaters level. Punishment would be absolute.
> 
> Luckily, I am rational.
> 
> I hope you show that same passion to your husband for his love and fidelity; loose the demon for his good behavior........too! Let the sparks and kisses fly!


Not sure what "loose the demon for his good behavior" means ? Please don't think by the way I answer that I've entertained he would ever cheat on me....I've never questioned that.. he's an amazing man, the most faithful & true I have ever known....I have less trust in myself over him, to be completely honest.. I am the one who is harder to please.. I'd never put up with a sexless passionless marriage for instance.. I think my husband could STAND.. but not me! I feel for anyone in such a relationship...I can even see how some of those fall... 

I tend to feel the marital bed is near "sacred", I feel as strongly as he in this area.. Oh yes...

When we read a question here.. we can only imagine what such a situation would be like, I have to imagine being married to another to even go there.... I've only seen what friends have lived through or read here how it's affected others....This is a very "heavy" thread to paint that picture... http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/306482-whats-worst-thing-about-infidelity.html 

I do not think I would handle it well .... I try to be very self aware in my answers ... I am only human.. When our son was betrayed by his ex & a guy friend... I felt HIS pain for months.. I cried with him.... I was SO ANGRY, livid...... so what if that was ME? but then sometimes watching our children emotionally struggle...maybe it is even worse somehow. I don't know.

I cared very deeply to find an honorable man ... not one of those who needed a variety of women to be satisfied, someone who wanted / valued monogamy... a family man... Me & him are of one & the same in what we wanted/ envisioned out of marriage & a romantic partnership.. intimacy is everything to us... the emotional & physical...

I'm one of those who believes how we treat each other affects the other greatly.. and deeply.....It's on us to water our own garden, don't allow apathy to set in, or conflicts to be stuffed... Satisfy each others wants & desires...


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

blahfridge said:


> Not sure my H feels this way. Two years plus out from the last D day and he's still in the basement. I haven't invited him back to the bed and he is left to wonder if I am still in touch with my EA partner but knows he has no right to ask.
> Is he suffering for what he did? Yes, he is. But he still has his family intact and the facade of a normal marriage. Sometimes I think it's more than he deserves, other times I think he's suffered enough. Jeez, cheating messes everything up.
> 
> 
> ...


Fvck you Bandit!

There...

You stay in pain because you choose to.


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

Xenote said:


> blahfridge said:
> 
> 
> > Not sure my H feels this way. Two years plus out from the last D day and he's still in the basement. I haven't invited him back to the bed and he is left to wonder if I am still in touch with my EA partner but knows he has no right to ask.
> ...


Um, no. He had at least 5 PAs before I had an EA. You obviously don't know my story.


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> blahfridge said:
> 
> 
> > Not sure my H feels this way. Two years plus out from the last D day and he's still in the basement. I haven't invited him back to the bed and he is left to wonder if I am still in touch with my EA partner but knows he has no right to ask.
> ...


Can't see the image on my phone Bandit, but that's okay...I get your drift. Sorry for the snarky outburst this morning, it was a low moment. 
Yeah, sure, I choose to stay in pain. I wish it were that simple, but in my world it's not. There are other people affected by my decisions. But whatever, you choose to believe it is that simple and I get it.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

blahfridge said:


> Can't see the image on my phone Bandit, but that's okay...I get your drift. Sorry for the snarky outburst this morning, it was a low moment.
> Yeah, sure, I choose to stay in pain. I wish it were that simple, but in my world it's not. There are other people affected by my decisions. But whatever, you choose to believe it is that simple and I get it.


If you are sacrificing your happiness for a greater good, I cannot judge you.


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> If you are sacrificing your happiness for a greater good, I cannot judge you.


Passing the peace pipe, Bandit. God knows I have done some things that are judge-worthy...but I do always try to be kind. Best to you. :smile2:


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## weltschmerz (Feb 18, 2016)

blahfridge said:


> Spare me the sarcasm, please. If you don't have a constructive response, then don't bother to respond at all. It really bugs me sometimes how blithe some people are about another's pain on this site. It's one of the reasons I rarely post about my own situation. I was tempted to offer a two word response, but it would get me banned.


I'd love to know your opinion here. Do you ever feel that you are, possibly, addicted to being in pain? Could your being in pain be the pretext to wielding all the power in your relationship? My house!! my rules. Get ****ed you arsewipe!! kind of a deal? I should ask, is your husband still actively trying to please you?


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

weltschmerz said:


> I'd love to know your opinion here. Do you ever feel that you are, possibly, addicted to being in pain? Could your being in pain be the pretext to wielding all the power in your relationship? My house!! my rules. Get ****ed you arsewipe!! kind of a deal? I should ask, is your husband still actively trying to please you?


I think it's the opposite, welt. I avoid the more intense pain for myself and for others by living with low level long term familiar pain. Focusing on my demanding job and graduate classes, escapism through EAs and through some online forums and television - it all helps me to avoid the hard pain of either leaving my marriage or trying once more to really fix it by telling my H what he needs to do to change things for me. My co-dependency and peacemaker role inbred from my FOO is what stops me from making the hard choices. Addicted to pain? No, it's the avoidance of pain and my fear of the unknown that drives my behavior. Better to live with the pain I know, than the pain I don't know.My intellect tells me that's not true, but my emotions override it. As for yielding all the power in my marriage, come see my home and then ask me that question. I live with a borderline hoarder and I've just given up. It's one of the reasons I keep so busy.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

blahfridge said:


> I think it's the opposite, welt.* I avoid the more intense pain for myself and for others by living with low level long term familiar pain. Focusing on my demanding job and graduate classes, escapism through EAs and through some online forums and television - it all helps me to avoid the hard pain* of either leaving my marriage or trying once more to really fix it by telling my H what he needs to do to change things for me. My co-dependency and peacemaker role inbred from my FOO is what stops me from making the hard choices. Addicted to pain? No, it's the avoidance of pain and my fear of the unknown that drives my behavior. *Better to live with the pain I know, than the pain I don't know.*My intellect tells me that's not true, but my emotions override it. As for yielding all the power in my marriage, come see my home and then ask me that question. I live with a borderline hoarder and I've just given up. It's one of the reasons I keep so busy.


If you're this self aware, then I would suggest you are simply comfortable in this pain. It's familiar. It's almost a friend at this point, a constant companion. I had a friend once that wasn't good for me. I realized this and ended the friendship without drama by simply walking away and never looking back. After a few weeks, it became easier and easier to go through days without missing my former friend.

I understand the fear of the unknown. I've been there. What I learned is this...you can go through the pain of leaving and come out the other side, but if you stay the pain will never end. Ever. At worst, you'll literally die feeling pain and regret. At best, you'll become so numb you don't feel much of anything at all, for anybody or anything. In the middle is you channel the pain and become the Crazy Dog Lady or Psycho Hobby Chick. 

Your H has had 5 affairs and is a hoarder among other problems, I'm sure. The only thing he could do to make himself agreeable to you as a mate would be to literally become someone he is not. Since that's not possible, your only options are to divorce or to live in this limbo forever.


I don't remember your situation. I've probably read and maybe even offered advice, but my memory sucks. When you speak of staying because you have others to consider, I assume children. Children learn what is normal in a romantic relationship by watching their parents. Children are also extremely perceptive. Even if the children ask questions and parent give them some cover story, they still know instinctively that something is off. Since children live what they learn, they'll likely have similar relationship dynamics when they become adults.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Wazza said:


> I get what you are saying about long term affairs being a choice and they know what's at stake, and in a sense it's true, but for my wife it kind of wasn't. I put it down to the fog they always talk about. *She was literally crazy in some of the things she did. I think I'm her head she knew the risk but she didn't really get it in her gut, if that makes sense.*
> 
> It's not something I totally understand, and I don't think she does either.


Saw the same thing with my WW. When finally caught, after many years of LT SC it was hard for her to even internalize what magnitude of betrayal she had done. Secrecy and Lies are a great ally for the cheater. 

The double life... Wife/Mother... secret AP for years. I remember asking, _"How could you live with yourself and not just explode with the risk, the guilt, the shame?"_ She said at first it bothered her but as time passed she learned to just shove her "little secret" in a box and stuff it way back. The attention was paramount and consuming for her. 

At DD, She "confessed" she always planned on stopping, told herself dozens of times this is the last time. In truth she never did and would never of confessed. The _train wreck _was the only way "out".


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## mistakesweremade (Aug 15, 2016)

I agree with the original post, in theory. It does often appear that once there has been reconciliation that the WS gets off fairly easy. 

However, for me, I feel like an absolute piece of human garbage. And sometimes I start feeling good, better, healing, and my ex reminds me that I am a disgusting wh0re. I feel like it will be decades before I feel normal again.


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## moth-into-flame (Oct 28, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> That said, all of them cannot be categorized the same.





farsidejunky said:


> Nobody wins in infidelity, least of all the cheater.


That seems to be a bit of a contradiction....I would say there are most certainly cheaters who "win". There are those that I'm sure are grinning ear to ear knowing "I got away with it". Either by virtue of the fact they had their fun and never got caught, or were outed, it was swept under the rug and their marriage remains intact - while they get to keep the marriage and the memories of the hot, disgusting, lurid cheater sex. Many a cheater would consider that a "win".


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> If you're this self aware, then *I would suggest you are simply comfortable in this pain. It's familiar. It's almost a friend at this point, a constant companion.* I had a friend once that wasn't good for me. I realized this and ended the friendship without drama by simply walking away and never looking back. After a few weeks, it became easier and easier to go through days without missing my former friend.
> 
> Comfortable implies ease, enjoyment, neither of which I feel. With all due respect, it's much easier to end a friendship than a marriage.
> 
> ...


Yes, my children are aware with their father sleeping in the basement that things are not right with us. I haven't tried to hide that from them. When he moved down there, I told them that we were having couple issues that had nothing to do with them. They haven't pressed us on what they are, though my younger daughter knows more. She found my journal, so she knows her father cheated, but not the extent. I have told her she should not feel like she has to protect anyone, but she has chosen not to share this knowledge with her siblings. The good news is that the children know that both of us love them very much, so I know that they will be okay no matter what happens. It's me that has to make the decision. My H will stay no matter what - another source of resentment. But that's on me, I could have kicked him out a few years ago when I learned the full extent of his activities. Tied up in all this is my fear of aging alone. I am closer to 60 now than 50. Had I known about all that he was up to years ago, I would have left him then - more resentment. 

So I carry on, still chatting sometimes with my old EA partners because I don't feel like I owe him my fidelity any longer, and yet I don't leave. Pretty stupid, for a seemingly intelligent woman, huh? I'm sure that last sentence will get me no end of grief here, but I'm past caring what other people think of me. That is one of the few advantages to being older, if you ask me. 




blahfridge said:


> I think it's the opposite, welt. I avoid the more intense pain for myself and for others by living with low level long term familiar pain. Focusing on my demanding job and graduate classes, escapism through EAs and through some online forums and television - it all helps me to avoid the hard pain of either leaving my marriage or trying once more to really fix it by telling my H what he needs to do to change things for me. My co-dependency and peacemaker role inbred from my FOO is what stops me from making the hard choices. Addicted to pain? No, it's the avoidance of pain and my fear of the unknown that drives my behavior. Better to live with the pain I know, than the pain I don't know.My intellect tells me that's not true, but my emotions override it. As for yielding all the power in my marriage, come see my home and then ask me that question. I live with a borderline hoarder and I've just given up. It's one of the reasons I keep so busy.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

blahfridge said:


> Yes, my children are aware with their father sleeping in the basement that things are not right with us. I haven't tried to hide that from them. When he moved down there, I told them that we were having couple issues that had nothing to do with them. They haven't pressed us on what they are, though my younger daughter knows more. She found my journal, so she knows her father cheated, but not the extent. I have told her she should not feel like she has to protect anyone, but she has chosen not to share this knowledge with her siblings. The good news is that the children know that both of us love them very much, so I know that they will be okay no matter what happens. It's me that has to make the decision. My H will stay no matter what - another source of resentment. But that's on me, I could have kicked him out a few years ago when I learned the full extent of his activities. Tied up in all this is my fear of aging alone. I am closer to 60 now than 50. Had I known about all that he was up to years ago, I would have left him then - more resentment.
> 
> So I carry on, still chatting sometimes with my old EA partners because I don't feel like I owe him my fidelity any longer, and yet I don't leave. Pretty stupid, for a seemingly intelligent woman, huh? I'm sure that last sentence will get me no end of grief here, but I'm past caring what other people think of me. That is one of the few advantages to being older, if you ask me.


Comfortable misery is a common term around here used to describe people in your exact situation. It's miserable, but more comfortable than the unknown.

Forgive me for using the friend story. I ended a 6 year marriage to my two oldest children's father when they were 6 and 1 year old. I know it's hard. I just couldn't use my exH as an example because, by the time I separated from him, I pretty much loathed him and didn't miss his drama and bullshyte and filthy messes at all.

He had affairs, I considered that open season, I had affairs. He wouldn't leave, either, so I had to make that decision. The freedom to live a real life was well worth being the bad guy.

Absolutely no judgement here for still talking to your EA AP's. I try very hard not to throw rocks after having lived in a glass house.

I'm glad you are truthful with your kids when they ask questions. 

I chose to be totally honest with my friends and family about both my affairs and his affairs. I grew into my "zero fvcks given" early and saw no reason to hide my choices or the reasons for them. My kids know the whole story, too, as the oldest remembers and they are all extremely curious about...everything.

If you are a woman of faith, it's impossible to age alone as your diety/dieties of choice are with you. Not to mention, you have children, friends, and family to love and comfort you as you age. You have at least one EA AP, so we can assume you have a personality that appeals to at least a couple other guys. Seems to me if you divorced and wanted a relationship, you'd be able to find one. Single, shacking up, or remarried, you won't grow old alone, though, as you still have diety, kids, friends, and family.


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

Still being in touch with my EA partners is what tells me that I'm not ready to forgive my H and reconcile. When he finally confessed to the 5 affairs (I know there are more), and to hacking into my phone and laptop with keyloggers, I was so enraged that I told him he no longer had the right to tell me with whom I could or could not be friends with, that it was now none of his business. Those relationships have evolved, the one friend reached out to me last year because he had cheated on his wife in a PA and she found out. He wanted my sympathy and advice, ironically. The other man is estranged from his wife and would like to reconcile, but he does nothing to make it happen. I hold no illusions or fantasy that either of these men are good relationship material. No fairy dust for me.

Thanks for your kind words, MJJEAN. I am not very religious, but I do have family and friends. I know I'd be okay, just have to figure out what I truly want. Like you, I know it means taking action myself. I did everything possible, short of a PA, to make my H leave me. I wanted the decision to be easy, but it rarely is when children are involved and after decades of building a life together. Now he's being kind and considerate and acts like he truly loves me. Pisses me off half the time, makes me feel guilty, and then angry the other half. Every once in a while, it makes me feel like there is hope for us. I will say it again, cheating messes everything up.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm here to say that my spouse got a good deal out of reconciliation. To say that I got a better deal our that she got a better deal is a foolish comparison of the same sort that makes people hate football games that end in a tie just because there must be some"winner". 

We both lost something in the process, but my wife didn't lose 90 percent of her earning potential. She didn't lose her home. She doesn't have to compete with anyone for time with her children. She doesn't have to go through the process of finding a sexually compatible partner, which would be no mean feat.

She did lose her completely unreserved trust in me, but I don't think she would have ever had that again after the fact. 

We both feel that we gained a great deal by staying together rather than divorcing. No one really considered it to be a **** sandwich, on either side. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

I can't really speak from personal experience since I chose to D my XWW (I definitely got the better deal on that vs her), but I have run into my XWW's former AP a couple of times who is doing a R with his wife and he looks like sh1t now. He's gotten fat, face has drastically aged, and he generally looks stressed and miserable. I don't think R always works out for the cheater. Knowing this guy and his wife I'd bet anything that he is in a sexless marriage with his W having his nuts totally locked up in a jar. Again, this is just an outsider's opinion but I'd sure hate to be in his shoes.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> This is one reason why I am not generally pro-reconciliation.
> 
> The forgiven WS gets to have awesome, titillating dangerous sex with their AP. They get to live this second secret life of excitement, fun and romance unencumbered by marriage, kids and mortgages. And...even when they are caught, more often than not all they suffer is a period of embarrassment and shame followed by a couple of years of spats and arguments; but they come out four or five years later relatively unscathed.
> 
> ...


This is a great post. I had a real ******* boss about 20 years ago's who's mantra was "It's better to do some thing wrong and ask forgiveness than to do it right the first time". He was caught in an affair right about the same time he was saying this.


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

Bananapeel said:


> I can't really speak from personal experience since I chose to D my XWW (I definitely got the better deal on that vs her), but I have run into my XWW's former AP a couple of times who is doing a R with his wife and he looks like sh1t now. He's gotten fat, face has drastically aged, and he generally looks stressed and miserable. I don't think R always works out for the cheater. Knowing this guy and his wife I'd bet anything that he is in a sexless marriage with his W having his nuts totally locked up in a jar. Again, this is just an outsider's opinion but I'd sure hate to be in his shoes.


My hat is off to you for choosing divorce before pushing yourself into the senseless agony of reconciliation. When you cut your losses, learn from the experience, and move forward with your life you give yourself the best chance to heal. Guys often stay because they fear disrupting the family life they know and are comfortable in but that is often times a slow boat to hell. 

So, I am sorry you had to deal with a cheating wife but very happy that you took the right road for you to move past it and feel so much happier now.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

drifter777 said:


> I will never stop hating myself for not divorcing my cheating wife after d-day. I lied when I told myself that I could move past it - that time heals all wounds. I was a coward and used my son as an excuse for staying. That a good father would never leave the kids mother. What a crock of ****. I was a great dad and nothing his mom could do would have changed that fact.
> 
> She got over on me. Not just that she screwed two guys and had one move in for a couple weeks. Not just the humiliation of her disgusting slu*ty behavior. She got me to accept being treated like a dog - a scared puppy. The strength I had melted when it was all on the line. That's not her fault - that is all on me. But she got the benefits. She got all that sex with OM and I got stabbed in the heart. She will never get it - I do not believe any WW gets it. But lots of BHS know exactly what I mean. There is a big part of me that hates a small part of her with a vengeance and that will never change.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You still married to her? Jesus, man. It's never too late to divorce. Frankly, I don't see how I could reconcile after a physical affair. Emotional was barely doable.

Agree that I think if my wife had a physical affair I would aim to even the score ASAP. Just because I'd feel justified. Like a get out of jail free card.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Bananapeel said:


> I can't really speak from personal experience since I chose to D my XWW (I definitely got the better deal on that vs her), but I have run into my XWW's former AP a couple of times who is doing a R with his wife and he looks like sh1t now. He's gotten fat, face has drastically aged, and he generally looks stressed and miserable. I don't think R always works out for the cheater. Knowing this guy and his wife I'd bet anything that he is in a sexless marriage with his W having his nuts totally locked up in a jar. Again, this is just an outsider's opinion but I'd sure hate to be in his shoes.


Great example. 

Basically, it's pretty sh!tty all around.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

Gabriel said:


> Agree that I think if my wife had a physical affair I would aim to even the score ASAP. Just because I'd feel justified. Like a get out of jail free card.


Reportedly most people regret a revenge affair afterwards.....don't get yourself down to the level of the cheater, ever!!


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

RWB said:


> At DD, She "confessed" she always planned on stopping, told herself dozens of times this is the last time. In truth she never did and would never of confessed. The _train wreck _was the only way "out".


That precisely how addicts behave, they always feel they are in control of their addiction and can stop it anytime. ....truth is they can't


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

I have no doubt that this is true - the cheater gets the better end of the deal.

Not because they were a cheater.

But because they took action. The wrong action in this case, but they took action. 100% of the time, a person who takes action always gets the better end of the deal than a person who simply wishes things were different.

According to the few marriage counselors who used scientific methods to evaluate relationships, cheaters almost always do so because they felt no connection with their supposed significant other, generally sensing that the supposed SO offered zero emotional support. I would argue that a better action would have been to confer with the supposed SO and ask if there was a way to get closer, and after an appropriate amount of time of this not working, end the relationship. Then go seek a different sexual partner, if that was so important.

But in that case, the person who took action first, will still end up with the better deal. By being action-oriented, they are taking responsibility for the success or lack of, in their lives. All human progress requires action. Action always entails doing something that others could see if they looked. It may just be an email starting a legal case, but that is action. Simply ruminating about how bad things are gets nobody anywhere and is very likely to start a downward spiral of self-despair, self-pity and other self-centered stuff.

I'm dealing with it now - I had always suspected that my wife may have had more insecurities and fear than she let on, and in the recent 18 months, I've come to realize that it's way worse than I thought. The kid glove treatment that she requires, just to prevent her from walking out on a conversation, is something I've never experienced. She's worth it, I want to make it work. As far as she's concerned, as long as she has access to our money, she won't be the one to leave. I'm not satisfied with the pace of improvements and the frequency of setbacks...but no matter any of that, I would not cheat. I would leave, first. And I would end up the one with the "better deal". 

I already AM the one with the "better deal", actually...since I pro-actively take responsibilty for my successes and have created decent career success while she only thinks that employers care about "years on the job" and is still earning min. wage at 60. Why is she earning min. wage? IMO, because she has added no skills and still thinks only at the bottom level of work. In her opinion? Too many foreign workers. So, what I mean by "better deal" is this - I am able to create any number of different futures if I wish, but she cannot break her regrets of the past long enough to even plan a better next hour.

dd


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

DustyDog said:


> Not because they were a cheater.
> 
> But because they took action. The wrong action in this case, but they took action.


Well, it's a gamble really, isn't it? There is no guarantee of coming out better, heck in some cases cheating can lead to violence and even death!!


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

I don't currently suffer any I'll affects from my wife's past infidelity. 

My wife got the worse end of the deal on that one. She still carries around a lot of shame for it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

Most of the time I don't waste time with blogs. Simply put that's a place where most people just put their best foot forward. You never really know the person on the other end of the keyboard. Honestly the amount of shallowness and dishonesty I see on facebook everyday is enough to make you want to quit social media altogether. Very very rarely do you ever get to see someone be real on the internet unless they are anonymous.


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## Justsayin4897 (Jan 22, 2016)

I rarely talk to anyone online because of fake people.. This morning I feel the need to vent...
I agree the damn cheater is winning in my situation why the hell is he winning he's the liar and the cheater not me...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Justsayin4897 said:


> I rarely talk to anyone online because of fake people.. This morning I feel the need to vent...
> I agree the damn cheater is winning in my situation why the hell is he winning he's the liar and the cheater not me...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


When you hitch your life to an emotional used car salesman you can't be surprised when they behave like the liars they are. They only win if you stay and continue to let them abuse you. In a sense their presence is abuse. It isn't active abuse but it's passive. It's the residual effect of what they did.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

DustyDog said:


> I have no doubt that this is true - the cheater gets the better end of the deal.
> 
> Not because they were a cheater.
> 
> ...


It's not the cheaters action that gets them the better deal, it the BS's inaction.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Exactly. Its useless to willfully agree to something than complain that the other person got the better deal. A person willfully takes the wayward back "as is". You may as well face it. You stay with them out of your own self interest because the alternatives seem worse. The option of leaving the relationship is always on the table.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

This is a good question. 

I stayed married to my XWW for over about a year after I found out her EA was actually a PA. It was a mostly one sided R and I was too stupid at the time to recognize that. During that time she was definitely getting the better deal. I was in agony while she still had everything she had before including contact with POSom. That wasn’t going to work for me so I filed and divorced her. 

Her life now…
Since she is a compartmentalizer extraordinaire, she lives with no guilt or remorse. After the D, she got the cash equivalent for ½ the house, ½ the furniture, a free car, ½ my pension, ½ of all my investments, 5 years of alimony @ $2000/month, a free condo for 5 years, $800/month child support even though the kids live with me most of the time. This also left her with tons of extra free time so she joined 3 different dating sites within 2 weeks of moving out. Even though her POSom dumped her before our divorce was final, her social life didn't skip a beat. Life is good for her now although her 5 years is coming to an end next year. When that runs out, I’m guessing she’ll get one of the legionnaires in her orbit to marry her. 

As for me… 
I lost a lot financially, emotionally and physically. I will have to work another 10 years to try to financially make up for what I lost in order to retire at a decent age. I also have to get my kids through college, XWW isn’t going to help. I have been living on $3000/month less than I did before the D. My son lives with me and my daughter is here most of time so I don’t have a lot of free time. I tried OLD but I haven’t met anyone that I wanted to go on a second date with. It seems like the women I have been meeting are just as messed up as my XWW and a lot of them seemed to be divorced because of “mysterious circumstances”. I have trust issues and not just with women…everyone. I have no faith in love, marriage or God anymore. I’ve had always dreamed of growing old with the mother of my children but that’s gone. I also lost her family. I became really close to them over the years. They hate her choices but still love her and are there for her. XWW’s cheating and subsequent divorce took its toll on me physically as well. Although I work out and exercise regularly, my hair seemed to turn grey overnight. I’m slowing down the ageing process but nothing will ever stop it.

So in summary, If we would have stayed married, she would have gotten a good deal. Now that we’re divorced, she still got an even better deal.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I don't feel that my husband has a better deal than I do. Maybe HE feels that way but I doubt it. 

You really need to try and figure out why this stuff bothers you so much, you know. It isn't normal.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> I don't feel that my husband has a better deal than I do. Maybe HE feels that way but I doubt it.
> 
> You really need to try and figure out why this stuff bothers you so much, you know. It isn't normal.


Who want's to be normal. I know why it bothers me, because I feel a deep sense of empathy for people who suffer from this stuff. Because I remember suffering.

Why do you post?


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

@Decimated - Sorry to hear your situation turned out like that. But the good news is that you essentially get a $2000/month raise next year when the alimony runs out which will be able to help you recoup financially. I think every situation has its ups and downs...the key is to try to focus on the positives and let those carry you through the harder times. If you focus on the negatives and let it cause you to have a soured view of life then your XWW wins, and you don't really want her to have that power over your life, do you?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

sokillme said:


> Why do you post?


Because I am bored at work.

I didn't mean it isn't normal to POST. I meant it isn't normal to be so obsessed with the aftermath of cheating. Unless you're in the midst of it anyway. I get that it bothers you, but you're beyond simple bother. You're in the realm of supreme agony.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> Because I am bored at work.
> 
> I didn't mean it isn't normal to POST. I meant it isn't normal to be so obsessed with the aftermath of cheating. Unless you're in the midst of it anyway. I get that it bothers you, but you're beyond simple bother. You're in the realm of supreme agony.


No I'm not, I'm just demonstrative. While I do hate cheating, I am not in agony. You probably just don't know many people like me. I am just as demonstrative on other things I post on too. Go read my post on white privilege yesterday, I wasn't very PC in my response, I killed everyone.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

sokillme said:


> No I'm not, I'm just demonstrative. While I do hate cheating, I am not in agony. You probably just don't know many people like me. I am just as demonstrative on other things I post on too. Go read my post on white privilege yesterday, I wasn't very PC in my response, I killed everyone.










Okee dokee


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Wazza said:


> The BS, if they hold it together, comes out with the knowledge they did the right thing. You also learn a lot about the nature of relationships.
> 
> The WS, if they have a conscience, lose part of themselves. They did what they did and they can never change it. They became, for a time, something they hate. For some WS, that doesn't matter a whole lot, but for others it does.


A WS is the way that they are for a reason, they have no conscience. Most of the time they don't care about who they are or what they did, just that they got away with it.


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