# Long Term R



## Eustache_Dauger (Jun 30, 2014)

I have been lurking on TAM for about three months now. I have learned a lot from the community here and I want to contribute by telling my story of betrayal. I hope my story will provide some insight into the R process from someone who has gone through betrayal, and what a marriage could be like if you decide to R. I have been with my wife for twelve years, married for ten years. We have one daughter (age two) and expect our next child soon. 

I met the woman who would become my wife when I was eighteen years old. We were both college students. She was my first "real" girlfriend, and I fell for her hard. After about two months of dating she went back to her home for six weeks during the summer. She worked for three weeks and then she went on a summer trip to Germany with her mother for three weeks. When she left I was under the strong impression that we were still "dating," and that she was my girlfriend.

Fast forward six + weeks into summer. I chose not to date a number of young ladies that summer because I was waiting for my "girlfriend" to return. I heard from her once or twice while she was working, and then nothing for about four weeks while she travelled to Germany and returned to my town. She eventually called me and I was super excited to see her. We met up, went to lunch and talked about her trip. That was when I started to realize something was up. She didn't really want to talk about the person she had gone to see in Germany (he had been an exchange student at her HS). Eventually after a couple more talks with her, I figured out/she told me that she had been intimate with both the German foreign exchange student, and some other random dude that lived in a town near where she was working (so two OM). The trickle truth took about a month to come out. She did tell me she thought we were still in a relationship during her time with OM (acknowledged what she did was wrong). This was very weird for me, I had no frame of reference or experience to deal with this situation. I told no-one, but I had a pain inside that felt as if it were eating me. She maintained a long distance relationship (e-mail, phone, and visited random dude once or twice) with both OM during this time frame. 

A month later I went away to a University and she stayed behind at the college where we met. In the following four months I decided to break up with her three times. I did not feel good about myself or the relationship. My studies were suffering, I almost lost my scholarships, and I did not truly believe she loved me. We only saw each other every other weekend. Every time I tried to break up with her she would ask me to come back to the relationship, and I made a choice to come back. After those four months I never attempted to break up with her again. I didn't know it at the time, but I did the classic rug sweep of a cheating relationship. I decided to forgive her and not bring up the cheating again. She still continued her long distance (e-mail) relationship with OM during this time, but it was platonic (her words, I did not verify).

Eighteen months later we married. Unfortunately we did not experience the "honeymoon" period that a lot of married couples have at the beginning of their marriage. The first four years of marriage were hell for me. We both were going through graduate programs, she got a job and I eventually graduated. During that time I was under a lot of pressure from my graduate program. Our relationship suffered. I would trigger, not often, but probably once a month or so. Whenever I would trigger I would consciously think to myself, "I forgave her, let it go." If I triggered hard I would "forgive" her again. I never brought the issue up. I don't think she knew what was happening. At some point within this timeframe she stopped her long distance relationship (e-mail) with OM, but I don't know when.

In our fifth year of marriage we joined a worldwide volunteer organization. We went to some cool countries together. We returned to the US and got jobs. The next three years our relationship really started to get better. Way, way better. At the end of three years I changed careers and my wife quite her job. We tried for kids and had one. Marriage continued to get better. 

If you have read so far you might think all is good, but things are not "good." The reality of my R is that things will never be truly good, they will just be good enough. To this day I do not know why I let my wife treat me so poorly at the beginning of our relationship. I love my family, I love my daughter, I love the child who will be born soon, and I love my wife. However; I have deep sense of shame about my marriage. My marriage was damaged before it began. I was the second choice, she said so when we were dating. It makes me sad to know that I will be my wife's second choice relationship for the rest of my life.

I am currently away (for work) from my wife for an extended period of time. I had gone quite a while without triggering, but after a couple of months being away I started triggering really hard. Eventually I decided I needed to do something about it. I wrote my wife a long letter explaining how I felt. This was the first time I brought up her cheating in twelve years. Twelve years is a long time to internalize something. I was gentle in my letter, and she responded by saying she had been faithful to me since we were engaged, she was sorry about her actions, and I wasn't her "second choice" for a husband. 

CONCLUSION: After twelve years with my wife I have a *"good enough"* marriage with a wonderful child, another on the way, and a wife who I think respects me. I know I was not her first choice. I was the best bet that she had at the time. *I do not completely trust my wife in areas of relationships and boundaries, and general truthfulness.* Trust is never 100% after you have been cheated and it has never been 100% in my marriage. I do not believe her when she says that she has been 100% faithful since we have been engaged. The first four years of our marriage were very bad, and I suspect she may have been unfaithful. I asked her about this and she denied so I won't ask her again.

If you are considering R, remember that the relationship will never be the same. Please do not rug sweep. Determine the reasons you want to R, your partner must make some kind of effort to make the relationship work. Do not allow yourself to be second best/choice. If you think you are second best it will hurt you, for a long time. For me, all I know is a relationship damaged by betrayal. *If I had it to do over again I would not make the same choices I made. However, if you choose to R do not wallow in self pity, anger, and bitterness.* Those emotions are valid, but they will poison your relationship and your mind. Personally, my recovery is ongoing and involves the bible, self-help books, reading threads on relationship websites, and a lot of physical exercise. I find strength in my faith to help me in those moments when I still feel the gnawing pain of betrayal. I consistently choose to stay in and improve my marriage. It is my choice. My marriage is improving and I fully expect it to continue to get better. 

I want to thank this community for the help you have provided me. I hope my story provides those faced with infidelity an example of one possible result of R, both the good and the bad.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Your wife's responce to your letter says alot in a very positive way. She did not dimiss her actions and stated that she was wrong. It does show a mature responce (IMO).


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Why did you marry her?


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

Thank you for posting this, very enlightening and full of great advice.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

> I do not believe her when she says that she has been 100% faithful since we have been engaged. The first four years of our marriage were very bad, and I suspect she may have been unfaithful. I asked her about this and she denied so I won't ask her again.


You are rug-sweeping in the same post you advise against rug-sweeping. There got to be a way you can handle this better, counselling or more communication. If you don't you will only have more regrets about yourself. 12 years did not heal it...


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

Another example of rug sweeping come back to haunt. One response to a letter is not a substitute for counseling. 

I suspect that with a competent counselor the two of you could have much better than a good enough marriage. 

Interesting story, thanks for sharing


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## indiecat (Sep 24, 2012)

She admitted that it wasn't right to sleep with someone else while you were dating. But you perhaps were more convinced that the relationship was going to be a permanent one 
than she was at that early point in the relationship?

It is confusing, as you were dating, but was their a verbal commitment to be exclusive?

You had only been dating for 8 weeks when she went to Germany? And you were teenagers? 8 weeks is not a long time to be dating someone.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

*If I had it to do over again I would not make the same choices I made. However, if you choose to R do not wallow in self pity, anger, and bitterness.* Those emotions are valid, but they will poison your relationship and your mind. 


This is what stands out from you post more then any of it.

It says a lot


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## Eustache_Dauger (Jun 30, 2014)

I just got a chance to check on the post. I will address responses in order.

Thorborn: I agree that my wife's response was mature. She expressed surprise and sorrow that I feel unhappy about any aspect of our marriage. She has worked on her half of the relationship over the last five years and I am happy with the way she relates to me. We will always have work to do, but our marriage is improving in large part to things she is doing and her maturity.

That_Girl: Why did I marry my wife? That is a good question. I grew up in a very conservative environment. Part of that environment was a dedicated push to marry at very young ages. I was 20 when I was married and that was older than most of my peers when they married. The fact that my relationship with my wife was not so good at the time was not a prime driver for me. I have since seen the error of this worldview. Thankfully my wife and I are still together, but a good number of the people from my peer group are divorced. It probably sounds strange to outsiders, but when you are effectively brainwashed to marry ASAP, it really screws with your view of a relationship.

Maincourse99: I am glad you found use in my post. Positive feedback is great.

Warlock: I appreciate your opinion of my actions. I understand you think I am rug-sweeping, however at this time I am focused on being the best and most attractive person I can be. S#!% happens in relationships and mine has had its share. Perhaps when I said I do not believe her when she says she was faithful the first four years of marriage it has more to do with my own state of mind during that time in our marriage. I never had a gut feeling she was cheating, but I wasn't even paying attention to her for a good part of the time. I was in one of those graduate programs that people warn you about. The last nine months of the program were 16 hour days seven days a week with four days off for Thanksgiving and Christmas. Honestly my relationship was on the backburner during that time and I wouldn't even know if she cheated. She had a job in an extremely toxic environment that I don't want to talk about in a public forum, but her coworkers were "bad women." Her work environment combined with my effective absence from the relationship is why I don't really believe her. 

If I find information that leads me to suspect her cheating during this time I will press her "strongly" about the matter. Until that time I find that I get more bang for my effort if I am making good things happen for me and my marriage. Thoughts of her cheating during that time don't keep me up at night. I would rate my level of suspicion as a 3 or 4 out of a scale of 10. If this sounds like rug sweeping to you I understand your point of view, but I don't consider myself to be rug sweeping.

Workindad: Counseling is something I have considered. I have an extreme aversion to counselors due to some things that happened with my mother and my in-laws. This is why my wife and I have never gone in the past. 

A "good enough" marriage does sound harsh, but I am not "good enough" in all aspects of my live. I am doing really well in my career, my Daughter is awesome, and I really do love my wife. Our relationship has some dirt on it, but I would not throw it away for anything (some things could push me out of it, but I won't take action to throw it away). You may very well be right about counseling getting us to a kick a$$ relationship, and when I redeploy I will bring up the issue of counseling with her.

Indiecat: I was convinced that the relationship was going to be permanent. It sounds crazy to me now, but it was definitely an artifact of my upbringing. There was a verbal agreement to exclusivity, which is why I did not date any other girls during the summer. Eight weeks is nothing, I have been married over ten years now, but at that point in my life things were clicking and eight weeks seemed like more than enough time. 

Convert: I am not sure I understand. Do you agree or disagree with that statement?


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Convert: I am not sure I understand. Do you agree or disagree with that statement?


I am not sure i understand it either.
I am in R now and wonder if it would have been better to go straight to D.

You said if you had it to do over again you would not have made the same choices. meaning you would have not R'd (married her)?


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

This is getting commplicated because you have child and one more is on the way. 

You did not have closure of her indiscretion before marriage.

You did not have a real good confrontation.

You have not healed from the wounds.

The relationship you thought about is not existing and that causes triggers.

Time will heal.

I suggest that you should have an open conversation with her and ask her to help you. You have invested 12 years and this is worth trying.

Good lucks.


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## indiecat (Sep 24, 2012)

Almost all relationships have some dirt in them. Substance abuse, financial disagreements, poor choices in careers, conflicts in parenting styles, conflict in the bedroom, EA/PA's, conflict in dealing with the inlaws. So many potential problems. 

Only you know if the good outweighs the bad in your marriage. 

Counseling, in which you explain how very hurt you were by her seeing other men during the dating period of your relationship is in order.


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## Eustache_Dauger (Jun 30, 2014)

*@ Convert*: I'm sorry you find yourself in this situation. You are correct, if I had it to do over again I would not have married. My first four years of marriage were not good. I do find it interesting that some research indicates that it takes four to five years to recover from infidelity and successfully R. I don't have the references handy at the moment, but I remember reading that in a psych journal. Perhaps that is why it took so long for my marriage to start improving?

Unfortunately I cannot suggest to you whether divorce or R is better in your case. I do know that I never really considered divorce or separation. When you take those options out of a relationship then its hard to gain clarity. I can suggest that you take a hard look at your relationship to see what you value in it, and how the relationship's value compares to its cost. I sincerely wish you the best.


*@AngryandUsed*: I agree that the situation is complicated, however I will point out that at this point in my relationship I will not leave my wife. I am spending my energy improving our marriage. For her part, my wife has been doing everything she can to be a "good wife" in the ways that matter to me. Sometimes I trigger, I started this thread because I still trigger after all these years, but I think we have a marriage that is improving. It isn't the "perfect" marriage, but I am working on it, and she is working on it. Marriage counseling could very well improve my marriage. I will talk with my wife about it when we are together again. I don't like counselors in general, but if it helps my marriage I am willing to do it.

*You are right that I did not have closure*. I need to work on that. The problem I have with seeking closure is that I do not like bringing up our past with my wife. She begins to cry when this is brought up, she doesn't change the subject, she answers anything I ask her, but I can tell that it really bothers her. *Continually harping on the past seems like it would lower my level of attractiveness to her.* I don't think pursuing additional "closure" past what I have already obtained is worth the potential damage to my attractiveness at this point. This is something that I can pursue further if I get us to attend counseling.

@Indiecat: When we are together again I will bring up the issue of counseling.


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## Alpha (Feb 18, 2013)

I don't know. She didn't have a ring on her finger before going to Germany so I don't even know how you can call it R. There never was a relationship in the first place.

She went to Germany and had two guys there. She explored. In the end if she was really in love, she would have stayed behind and stuck with any of the two guys or she would have gone back. She didn't. She returned and sought you out. She cut ties with Germany. So what makes you even think you were number two? YOU were her number one.

What you have is a total lack of self confidence. You say if you could go back in time you would not have gotten married to her. What a stupid statement to be honest. You have beautiful daughter, another child on the way, AND a wife who has stuck with you through the crap years! You should be counting your lucky stars! Instead you write her a letter to tell her how distraught you are with your wife's supposed infidelity BEFORE you got married when there was NO relationship to begin with. Do you know how stupid that is? Did you stick an engagement ring on her finger? NO you didn't!

The way I see it, your wife has no problems, but you do. Don't drag her into counseling because she doesn't need it. You go to IC and get yourself fixed pronto because any more STUPID moves on your part may destroy the best thing you have going for you right now. 

Oh and another thing. She's carrying your next child. You should be celebrating but instead you give her grief. Get yourself sorted quickly!


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## Eustache_Dauger (Jun 30, 2014)

@ Alpha: You have a different take on my relationship with my wife :scratchhead:

BLUF, your assumption that I am very insecure and have multiple "problems" is incorrect. I won't sugar coat the fact that you are wrong. I won't be drawn into a long back argument with you over whether or not my feelings are valid or healthy. 

If you wish to participate and have something of value to contribute to this discussion then please do so. If you do not, or if you continue to try and "pick a fight" then I will simply block you.


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## Alpha (Feb 18, 2013)

Who says I am picking a fight with you? I'm just stating the facts that you presented:

-You dated for eight weeks. She left to Germany, but you never put a ring on her finger.
-She hooked up with two men while there.
-She came back and married you. You say she was settling for you. 
-Marriage was rough at the start but good now. You have one child and another on the way.

Look at the title of your thread--Long Term R. How can you even call it R when there was no real relationship in the first place? You weren't even engaged. You say your wife settled on you as her second choice. If you felt like she was settling, then why did you marry her in the first place? She also hasn't cheated on you while married.

So yes, I'm calling you insecure and my reasons are pretty valid. I'm only repeating what you stated.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By Eustache*
> I was the second choice, she said so when we were dating. It makes me sad to know that I will be my wife's second choice relationship for the rest of my life.




My guess is that the feelings that you have that you are the second choice is HUGE and probably your biggest pain. There is no question that you were her second choice back when you were not married as she has truthfully stated that to you.

However, she maybe telling you the truth when she said that you were not her second choice for a husband” Your wife seems like a woman that tells the truth even if it hurts. I say that because she told you that you were second choice during your pre-marriage days. It would have been much easier for her to lie to you. Furthermore, she was surprised recently when you stated that you were unhappy about some aspects of your marriage. She seems to think that you were happy about ALL aspects of your marriage. *If you were now her second choice then why was she surprised about your unhappiness in marriage? *If she knew that you were not her number one then she would not have been surprised by your displeasure in marriage. That could be a strong indicator that you are now her first choice.




> By Eustache
> This was the first time I brought up her cheating in twelve years. Twelve years is a long time to internalize something. I was gentle in my letter, and she responded by saying she had been faithful to me since we were engaged, she was sorry about her actions, and *I wasn't her "second choice" for a husband.*






I know it still hurts that you were not always her number one choice and I have no argument with you about you being hurt over that fact.

Another fact that would be worth considering is that your wife has been working very hard for years and is improving the marriage. *If you are not her number one now why would she be working so hard to make a good marriage with you?*


I know that you do not trust your wife 100% and so I do not expect her statement that you are now number one to convince you enough. I say look at the ACTIONS and not the words. Just the actions she has taken so far seems like a pretty good start in proving that you are number one now.

Another fact that you can look at is that you have been with her for 10 years and that is a pretty good length of time for observation by you. *What actions have you seen in the last 10 years that you are not number one?*


I am not telling you that it is 100% guarentee that you are now number one but it seems like there is a lot more actions in the last 10 years that leans in the direction that you are now number one. *Have you witnessed some of her actions that you have not old us about that lean in the direction that you are NOT number one?* If you have some then compare those with what you have already stated in this thread and see what you come up with.


I was number one with my girlfriend even though she had other boy friends before me. She was elated when I married her. I was number one with my wife for 18 years then I was not number one; she choose another man as number one. Now she has me as number one again but there is damage. I decided to R over 25 years ago and your advice reprinted below is very good advice!



> By Eustache
> However, if you choose to R do not wallow in self pity, anger, and bitterness. Those emotions are valid, but they will poison your relationship and your mind




I also admire your attitude that you expressed see below
I


> consistently choose to stay in and improve my marriage. It is my choice. My marriage is improving and I fully expect it to continue to get better.


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