# Weakness and control



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
I have an interesting issue that may be common (or not).

I am very self-sufficient. While there are a lot of things I like and want, I rarely feel I "need" something from my wife. I rarely need help, need to be rescued etc. I'm very easy-going, for example I enjoy any vacation with my wife where she is happy - its just not that big a deal where we are - I'm happy lots of places.

My wife does need things. She has trouble sleeping and wants me to stroke her hair. She gets feeling poorly and wants me to come home. She has car trouble and wants me to rescue her. She gets tired hiking, so I carry her stuff.

All that is OK, and I'm happy to be helpful, but it is very easy for this to turn into giving her complete control over our lives. We travel where she wants because I don't care (much) and she does. We stay home when she is tired, go out when she feels like it. 

Recently we were deciding between a weekend trip to "A" or "B". I considerably prefer "B", but the choice becomes being with her when she is happy at "A" but unhappy at "B", and the first is far superior. I simply cannot be happy on a trip if she is unhappy. (yes she would go to "B" if I 'insisted', but the trip wouldn't be fun.

(this has parallels in our sex life as well of course). 

Its tricky - each request is perfectly reasonable, and I do love her and want to do things for her - but it has turned into a one-way street.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Richard,

M2 and I have a similar pattern. That said, when it feels overly one sided to me, this is what I do. I tell her that she has to choices.
1. Go to both places with me. My preference first - simply as recognition that most of the time it's 'all about her'
Or
2. I go to the place I want either with a male friend or by myself and then we go where she wants together.

I will tell you that she sometimes reacts negatively to this. To be honest, her default wiring is that:
- I should want what she wants
- I should NOT want to do things that she doesn't want to do






richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> I have an interesting issue that may be common (or not).
> 
> I am very self-sufficient. While there are a lot of things I like and want, I rarely feel I "need" something from my wife. I rarely need help, need to be rescued etc. I'm very easy-going, for example I enjoy any vacation with my wife where she is happy - its just not that big a deal where we are - I'm happy lots of places.
> ...


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## GA HEART (Oct 18, 2011)

It's always about balance. I'm the more laid back, go with the flow partner in my relationship too. I"m happy to see him happy. But sometimes, I think that (like you) it gets a little one-sided. I have found that if I am not careful, I give up doing the things I want to do and instead do something he wants to do. 

At times like that, I make sure to interject and talk about why I want to do something and how its important to me. I end up doing those things alone sometimes, and that's ok by me. Occasionally he will come with. 

I"m not quite sure HOW to acheive the balance, because it's a fuzzy line that I am dealing with myself. All I know is that I do try to make sure that I get to do the things I like too, despite him "not wanting to" or not "being happy about it."


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

I can really relate to this. As far as stuff that my wife needs help with (carrying bags, opening jars etc) that stuff doesn't bother me at all. And even most "small" things that she could do herself, I don't mind doing also. I like helping my wife.

It does seem to get unbalanced in some ways though, and I'm not sure if it's just a matter of perception on my part.

Example: My wife pretty much solo's the laundry. I've NEVER asked her to wash anything for me, and I have NO problem doing my own laundry (I happily do my own ironing because I know she hates it). She voluntarily does the laundry anyway. She views this as "doing stuff for me", which it totally is. The problem is that when I DO ask her to do something for me--pretty infrequently and normally a pretty small request--I get a lot of pushback on it. It's like she has her internal list of things she doesn't mind doing, but it's all stuff that I'd never ask her to do anyway.

I think I'd be much happier if she saved the effort on a lot of the major stuff she does and would be a little more open to doing stuff I actually ASKED her to do.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Pretty simple

Your relaxed and open approach has enabled her to have more say/control over the choices.

The answer is, take more lead EVEN THOUGH you don't really care much for where/how etc.

Goal is to keep it around 50/50. Right now it's at 100/0 and you feel like you are being used/taken advantage of.

Completely natural.

It's as big of a problem with YOU as it is with your WIFE. This is a result of BOTH of you (you for letting go/not caring and her for having say and being use to it).

for each time she pics or does <insert anything> you take the lead the next time.

Heck, even 2 to 1 ratio is ok, but there has to be YOU in there somewhere.

I would not go as far as 3 to 1. 66% to 33% is still an ok balance.

It's the 70/30s, 80/20s and 90/10s that you have to watch out for.

Don't worry, it will take time but she will adjust just fine. And accept that some of the places you pick she won't be happy with.

The goal, is to get her to a place where you are at. Which is, doesn't matter where we are, as long as we are together.

That is possibly the bigger issue down the line.


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## GA HEART (Oct 18, 2011)

Fozzy, I kinda have that issue too. My BF cooks every night because he WANTS to. I don't ask him to, and every time I offer to cook, he turns it down. Even when I take the initiative and start without asking, he comes and takes over. I don't ask him to do much either, but he seems to feel like since he cooks, it's a free pass to not really do much else. Or worse, harp on me for not getting something done (that he didn't even ask me to do, but needed getting done and I couldn't get to because I was busy doing something else that needed getting done.)

At least we aren't alone. LOL!


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

It's not even about chores or anything with me. Admittedly I have a much higher tolerance than she does for living like a zoo animal.

For me it's just a matter of "hey I'd like you to read this article and tell me what you think", or "I think I'd prefer pizza tonight". Pretty minor stuff, but it actually means a lot to me when I take the time to ask for something. Maybe she thinks that since it's minor stuff that it's not meaningful?


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## GA HEART (Oct 18, 2011)

Yes, the "couldn't be bothered" stuff happens with us at times too. He does read the little facebook sillies I show him, even though he rolls his eyes sometimes.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

GA HEART said:


> Fozzy, I kinda have that issue too. My BF cooks every night because he WANTS to. I don't ask him to, and every time I offer to cook, he turns it down. Even when I take the initiative and start without asking, he comes and takes over. I don't ask him to do much either, but he seems to feel like since he cooks, it's a free pass to not really do much else. Or worse, harp on me for not getting something done (that he didn't even ask me to do, but needed getting done and I couldn't get to because I was busy doing something else that needed getting done.)
> 
> At least we aren't alone. LOL!


Every relationship has these sort of issues.

My wife has enabled me to be a complete lazy ass too (way back when, and I completely ran with it like an idiot), but time came about when I said "I just can't watch you do all of this"....I feel like I'm taking advantage of you/using you etc.

And we adjusted things. I felt better about myself and she felt better about me being more considerate and maturing....went a long way for BOTH of us.

IMO, resolving these sorts of issues brings people closer together/builds relationship stronger.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> It's not even about chores or anything with me. Admittedly I have a much higher tolerance than she does for living like a zoo animal.
> 
> For me it's just a matter of "hey I'd like you to read this article and tell me what you think", or "I think I'd prefer pizza tonight". Pretty minor stuff, but it actually means a lot to me when I take the time to ask for something. Maybe she thinks that since it's minor stuff that it's not meaningful?


When you constantly present a person with "meh, minor stuff".....over long periods of time......their brain will automatically default to "everything is minor with him".

NOTHING is good when taken to the extreme. That includes "playing it cool" or being "calm" or "playing stuff down".

Something along the line, you get the point.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Fozzy,

We spent months in therapy on this single point. M2 does a LOT for me. But she had an intense allergy to me asking her to do anything for me. 

She has improved - but it took a staggering amount of emotional energy. 



QUOTE=Fozzy;10860642]I can really relate to this. As far as stuff that my wife needs help with (carrying bags, opening jars etc) that stuff doesn't bother me at all. And even most "small" things that she could do herself, I don't mind doing also. I like helping my wife.

It does seem to get unbalanced in some ways though, and I'm not sure if it's just a matter of perception on my part.

Example: My wife pretty much solo's the laundry. I've NEVER asked her to wash anything for me, and I have NO problem doing my own laundry (I happily do my own ironing because I know she hates it). She voluntarily does the laundry anyway. She views this as "doing stuff for me", which it totally is. The problem is that when I DO ask her to do something for me--pretty infrequently and normally a pretty small request--I get a lot of pushback on it. It's like she has her internal list of things she doesn't mind doing, but it's all stuff that I'd never ask her to do anyway.

I think I'd be much happier if she saved the effort on a lot of the major stuff she does and would be a little more open to doing stuff I actually ASKED her to do.[/QUOTE]


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Richardsharpe....You sound an AWFUL LOT LIKE MY HUSBAND.. he cares about my happiness...(I think this is a wonderful thing, but TRUE.. Us wives can ABUSE it if we're not careful ...and the man is too passive here )

I've never abused being too lax or lazy, he calls me the Energizer Bunny... if anything I'm mad at myself if I don't have everything done by the time he walks through the door each day coming home.... we've never argued about who does what around the house..hes's appreciative of all I do, and I feel the same of him.. And I try to be a good wife & help when he needs it after work.. on bigger projects. Our house could be cleaner at times... but we got kids! 

But on where we go/what we do (for pleasure /FUN)...Ultimately he is very laid back here...easy to please & just wants us all (kids too) to be HAPPY... he allows me to decide where to vacation....where to go to eat, you name it ...when I ask his opinion (and I ALWAYS DO)... I often get this many times over..... "Where ever we go, so long as we're together"- with a ...that's just his attitude.. what's not to love. 

I've jokingly complained he's *too easy to please* for goodness sakes.. 

*When in your wife's position (or mine) we need to be mindful and seek to know what our husbands want too...what your desires are, where you'd prefer to go, see , DO... and consciously put ourselves down ..and make it happen !*

I've gotten better at this [email protected]# 

I did a thread on "Intellectual Foreplay".. all about communication again.. so we are in tuned with each others wants/ desires. but she is not here reading this.. YOU ARE.. so I guess this is not going to help you ! It all starts there though, something I think all couples should have in pre-marital counseling or something.. and to not let it fade.. it's a great feedback loop to each other.. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-t...ng-intimacy-insight-open-ended-questions.html

So as others have suggested.. you will need to take more of a Lead if you feel she is taking advantage.. because if not.. this will eventually lead to some resentment on your part.. which is no good for either of you...

DoF wrote a great assessment to what is happening in your relationship.. I'm feeling your wife is NOT being considerate of you.. and what will bring you happiness.. just "too one sided"...


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

One of the reasons that I'm far happier divorced than I was married is the unbalanced relationship we had. Until I found TAM, around the time I was about to file, I didn't even realize how unbalanced my marriage was. 

I am a giver and I did everything imaginable for the marriage and for my husband. My ex-husband did virtually nothing for the marriage or for me. I didn't mind except for the extremely rare occasions I asked him to do something minor and he always had some excuse why he couldn't. No matter how much I discussed it with him, nothing changed during the 45 years we were married. How I wish I had had TAM in those days to set me straight.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Balance has been a major issue with us, so it's been a hard learning curve for both of us.

The one sidedness you refer too Richardsharpe rings true for me in many ways, yet has improved greatly since everything fell apart over the last year.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

This is how my marriage was. I gave more than I got. In my mind making the other person happy and giving in all the time was a way to show love. I was rewarded for years of that in the most unconventual way. Marriage should be about balance and your happiness should be considered and sought after as well.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

I'm at the stage in my life where a vacation, even for a weekend, is so very few and far between. As long as I'm getting AWAY from the normal drudgeries of life, I'm happy.

So why would your wife be unhappy with Choice B?

A trip to Jamaica... OR a trip to Toledo... I really would have a blast anywhere my husband feels he wants to go!


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Revamped.
Imagine "A" is a trip to New Orleans - atmospheric, old estates, good food, great jazz (which she loves, but I don't like). Probably staying in a quaint B&B in the french quarter.

"B" is a trip to Las Vegas. Lights, glitter, excitement, and good food. (no, we don't gamble). Probably staying in a highrise with a view down the strip and a Jacuzzi. 


Both are OK. Personally I'd rather be in Las Vegas, I like a bit of excitement crowds and noise. My wife is just barely OK with Las Vegas but prefers something more cultural. 

If we go to New Orleans she will be happy, so I will be happy - and the food IS great. I'll go to jazz performances with her because I know she enjoys it.

If we go to Las Vegas she will be somewhat unhappy. Not really complaining but not very happy - tired from the walking and bothered by the crowds. So I won't actually enjoy the trip. 

So, in a sense because I am more flexible, more able to enjoy other options, less easily bothered, we do what she wants.

Done one time, this is fine, but I can never legitimately say I don't want to go somewhere because I enjoy all trips - to a greater or lesser extent. She doesn't enjoy some. 

We sometimes go where I want, but she is essentially the "gate keeper". I never say no, she does. (hmm, just like sex). 







Revamped said:


> I'm at the stage in my life where a vacation, even for a weekend, is so very few and far between. As long as I'm getting AWAY from the normal drudgeries of life, I'm happy.
> 
> So why would your wife be unhappy with Choice B?
> 
> A trip to Jamaica... OR a trip to Toledo... I really would have a blast anywhere my husband feels he wants to go!


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

So you'll give in, even though she's stalemating you?

No good, not good at all.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Richard,

The real issue isn't Vegas vs. New Orleans.

The real issue is that you are afraid of ending up sacrificing Vegas and ending up celibate in New Orleans. And if that happens, you are going to feel hurt, taken advantage of and angry.

If I was in your shoes, I'd be direct with my wife: 

We can have a Romantic vacation in New Orleans or a celibate vacation in Vegas. Your choice. And then I wouldn't budge. You are letting your wife treat you as if you aren't important. 










richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Revamped.
> Imagine "A" is a trip to New Orleans - atmospheric, old estates, good food, great jazz (which she loves, but I don't like). Probably staying in a quaint B&B in the french quarter.
> 
> "B" is a trip to Las Vegas. Lights, glitter, excitement, and good food. (no, we don't gamble). Probably staying in a highrise with a view down the strip and a Jacuzzi.
> ...


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

richardsharpe said:


> So, in a sense because I am more flexible, more able to enjoy other options, less easily bothered, we do what she wants.


Just be careful that this isn't a cover for apathy setting in.

Maybe she needs to be out of her comfort zone sometimes just as you need to be to ask for it.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> For me it's just a matter of "hey I'd like you to read this article and tell me what you think", or "I think I'd prefer pizza tonight". Pretty minor stuff, but it actually means a lot to me when I take the time to ask for something. Maybe she thinks that since it's minor stuff that it's not meaningful?


My husband sent me an article I've yet to read and he's asked my thoughts on it. Allow me to slap my own forehead before logging off to read it. And thanks for the perspective/reminder.


I agree with others about having balance. My husband is a take control kinda guy. He finds it attractive when someone (me) takes responsibility and doesn't 'need' him as such. He has low tolerance for a victim mentality. 

I asked him to get a spider the other day. He was about to start a chore and asked 'Really?' and I replied 'Yes.' He came and took care of spider. Went back upstairs and I came across another spider. Called out to him. He came down and took care of it but told me he felt I needed to toughen up and deal with the spiders myself. Say whah?! lol. I get how it was from his perspective though - he came and dealt with one just to be immediately called upon again to deal with another and he feels it's something I could do. 

Wouldn't ya know it though, that evening, there in the room was the mutha of all spiders - I'm talking leg span the size of my hand - I shudder just writing about it. I told him I know he wants me to handle spiders more myself but I'd really appreciate his help with this one. Told him, it was the muthaf*cker of all spiders. He took care of it. Then I sat shaking in the corner for an hour. (I kid on the last part). I may start sleeping with a stocking over my head in the style of Raising Hope though. Anyway, yes it's all a balance. And yes, I'm going to brave some of these spider instances more myself. Because I'm tough like that.

As for the trip - I'm taking it your wife likes a lot of control and doesn't like surprises?


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

richardsharpe said:


> My wife does need things. She has trouble sleeping and wants me to stroke her hair. She gets feeling poorly and wants me to come home. She has car trouble and wants me to rescue her. She gets tired hiking, so I carry her stuff.
> 
> All that is OK, and I'm happy to be helpful, but it is very easy for this to turn into giving her complete control over our lives. We travel where she wants because I don't care (much) and she does. We stay home when she is tired, go out when she feels like it.


I know if my husband were in your shoes, he'd lose respect (and attraction) for me. What attracted him to me in the first place was related to my attitude and independence. Granted, he was unaware of the depths of my spider anxiety back then.

Maybe your wife needs to learn / rediscover what it means to not rely on you and that's going to start when you begin switching things up - you might encounter thoughts of 'I'll let this one slide...' but the thing is, you owe it to yourself to not let it slide. Bring back the energy to be bothered when she pushes back, disagree and argue if needed, just anything to snap out of the (what I view as) apathy veiled as being laid-back. Help to establish or reestablish the balance of needing each other without relying upon one another.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This - whole - topic - was - infuriating - to - me.

Finally I used M2 shorthand which tends to be remarkably effective. 

MEM: Babe, I'm not going to fight with you on this topic. I do however want to know something. Do you believe I resist your requests for acts of service?
M2: No
MEM: Do you feel that you have to repeat that type of request many, many times to get me to help you?
M2: I don't
MEM: Do you really think that you and I react the same way to this type of request from each other? 
M2: No - I make it harder for you than you make it for me

This was the result of many, many months of friction. 

I STILL feel - resentful - angry - that M2 responded this way. 

And - right - wrong - or indifferent - I believe that she felt that way because she was the ultimate concubine. And therefore - she had no obligation to do anything whatsoever that she didn't want - outside the bedroom.....

Disclaimer: I still love M2 more than anyone else I have ever known.....

P


Fozzy said:


> It's not even about chores or anything with me. Admittedly I have a much higher tolerance than she does for living like a zoo animal.
> 
> For me it's just a matter of "hey I'd like you to read this article and tell me what you think", or "I think I'd prefer pizza tonight". Pretty minor stuff, but it actually means a lot to me when I take the time to ask for something. Maybe she thinks that since it's minor stuff that it's not meaningful?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Hearts,

Sorry - I can't help it. 

For months M2 had to listen to me occasionally rant and rave about a time magazine cover. 

It was entitled: phobias

And it featured a photo of a giant fvcking spider. Some kind of bird eating arachnid. 

And my comment on the cover was: Are you fvcking kidding me? What is irrational about being scared of a spider that's so big it can eat a fvcking bird? 

FYI: if M2 asked me to kill such an arachnid, I would do so without outward comment or complaint. But inside - I'd be thinking - holy shlt, I hope this little monster doesn't jump up and sink it's talons into me.....




heartsbeating said:


> My husband sent me an article I've yet to read and he's asked my thoughts on it. Allow me to slap my own forehead before logging off to read it. And thanks for the perspective/reminder.
> 
> 
> I agree with others about having balance. My husband is a take control kinda guy. He finds it attractive when someone (me) takes responsibility and doesn't 'need' him as such. He has low tolerance for a victim mentality.
> ...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good afternoon MEM11363
What we really get is a celibate vacation one place or the other.  Though she has been trying more the last couple of weeks.

The real issue is that I would enjoy either. Everything else being the same, I'd enjoy Vegas more, but New Orleans with a happy spouse is much more enjoyable than New Orleans with her unhappy.

In some sense, I'm too easy. Las Vegas, New Orleans, Ulan Bator - I can enjoy any of them - though I do have a preference for some over the others.

I do also travel by myself or with friends to places my wife doesn't want to go, so it isn't all bad. 



MEM11363 said:


> Richard,
> 
> The real issue isn't Vegas vs. New Orleans.
> 
> ...


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good afternoon MEM11363
> What we really get is a celibate vacation one place or the other.  Though she has been trying more the last couple of weeks.
> 
> The real issue is that I would enjoy either. Everything else being the same, I'd enjoy Vegas more, but New Orleans with a happy spouse is much more enjoyable than New Orleans with her unhappy.
> ...


I am very similar in that I am easy going and can find joy almost anywhere I go. My H isn't that way. He can find the negative almost anywhere we go, so he is working on his negative attitude. But, it does make for taxing discussions on travel when we both enjoy travel. And it certainly can create imbalance. So I am grateful for his efforts to lean more my direction and balance out the negativity.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Richard,

My 'protect and serve' circuitry is remarkably similar to yours. 

And M2, has a much narrower comfort zone than I do, just as R2 has a more limite range than you do. 

And my decision making is identical to yours. A happy M2 in Mew Orleans makes for a better overall experience for me than a much less happy M2 in Vegas. 

----------

I also believe that you feel taken for granted.  And that you are reluctant to say so due to the recent deaths of your in laws. 

Unfortunately your W has taken you for granted for much of the marriage. Not only do you feel that way, I'm confident that your W agrees with you. Which is exactly why her behavior improved so markedly years ago, immediately following that conversation where she realized you were on the edge of leaving.

Because of that, you don't believe that your in laws deaths are what's driving this behavior. 

Gentle suggestion. Tell your W that you feel taken for granted. 

But show her the core emotion - which is hurt. Not the secondary emotions - which are resentment and anger. 

And then gently put off the vacation. Just tell her that you normally feel good about putting her preferences first - New Orleans. 

But that right now, you really don't. 

Now I don't know your wife. But I do think you and she both deserve honesty. Of she tries to hide behind her parents deaths, you should tell her the truth:

I'm sure you're sad about your parents death. But it honestly feels as if the main impact of that is you taking me for granted. You still seem happy to do all the things that you enjoy and I'm glad that you are. I've been supportive, but I'm starting to feel abandoned.

--------
Took my MC about a year to get me to understand how important this type communication is. 






richardsharpe said:


> Good afternoon MEM11363
> What we really get is a celibate vacation one place or the other.  Though she has been trying more the last couple of weeks.
> 
> The real issue is that I would enjoy either. Everything else being the same, I'd enjoy Vegas more, but New Orleans with a happy spouse is much more enjoyable than New Orleans with her unhappy.
> ...


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I appreciate the sentiment MEM.

He wouldn't mind either before we moved ....once in a while.... but we've moved somewhere whereby I'll be seeing a lot more bugs than I'm used to and so it's more about learning to live in this new environment without calling on him every time I see something.

I get where he's coming from. Trust me, if I felt he was being inconsiderate towards me or my need was great for this, I wouldn't be so quick to embrace his view that I need to deal with it more. Reading about the TIME cover though... eek!!! I can say for sure that he's not worried about the spiders we've had. The big one he dealt with, he actually read they eat the other spiders and such and they're good to have around. Yeah, just not on my watch thanks. 




MEM11363 said:


> Hearts,
> 
> Sorry - I can't help it.
> 
> ...


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

A quick addition to the above... my husband also wants me to become comfortable where we're now living and not fearful of the bugs. I've been city living far too long! This is part of his intention and I think intention is important. I don't feel unprotected by him or that a need isn't being met or anything along those lines as a result. I see it in two-parts: 1) that it's getting annoying for him. 2) that he wants me to face these things to get more comfortable living here. 

He is also going to perimeter spray for us. That's spiders and bugs but as for the rats in the sub-floor .....hell no, I won't be checking on the baits. That's for him or the pest control woman. I know my limitations. Other than that, it really is a beautiful place to live. 

Richard - what's your intention?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
I read and appreciate everyone's comments, just sometimes I don't have anything useful to say back. 

We will go to New Orleans (which is an example, it isn't really New Orleans). Over Christmas when we have some time off, I will suggest Las Vegas. If she says no, I'll try to let her know how things are getting biased. 

In general though I find the "weakness" defense difficult to fight. If something makes her seriously unhappy, I don't want to do it. Since a lot of things make her unhappy, it can leave me pretty stuck.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

Was this a mutual decision?

Or did you just give in because you didn't want to make her upset...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good afternoon
I gave in because for me, traveling anywhere where my wife is happy is more fun than anywhere else where she is unhappy.

That's the problem. Its the classic, she cares, I don't, she wins. But I'm not about to pretend that I care more than I do, just to show that I can get my way. 





Revamped said:


> Was this a mutual decision?
> 
> Or did you just give in because you didn't want to make her upset...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Richard,

There's an aerospace term: controlled flight into ground

Are you sure that you aren't doing that? 

M2 sometimes plays the 'helpless female' with me. But it seems that R2 has taken it to an art form. 

It's ironic that someone so fragile is able to so totally dominate the marriage.....





richardsharpe said:


> Good afternoon
> I gave in because for me, traveling anywhere where my wife is happy is more fun than anywhere else where she is unhappy.
> 
> That's the problem. Its the classic, she cares, I don't, she wins. But I'm not about to pretend that I care more than I do, just to show that I can get my way.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

This has been a significant problem for me as well. I'm the giver, I enjoy making people happy and I am uncomfortable having people do things for me. 

This behavior resulted in the following problems: On the rare occasion when I ask for something, I'd be incredulous if I am denied it (but I ask for so little! i.e. covert contracts). I'd build up resentment even though it was my own choice to behave this way. I was perceived as "weak". Most of all, I denied my wife the opportunity to make me happy.

I made a concerted effort to focus more on my own needs (now it's more like 70/30 instead of 95/5). And I had the good fortune to marry someone who has a high tolerance for being made happy (look for 30 yr old women who have figured out everything they *don't* want). If my wife asks me what restaurant or movie we should go to, I respond with "I actually have no preference (if I actually don't) but I'll man up and make the call if need be".

If the balance is too out of whack for too long, your spouse might have gotten out of the habit of caring about making you happy (as I write this it occurs to me that most of the guys not getting enough sex probably fall into this category).

You have to give your SO the opportunity to make you happy, they may be happy you did; eventually


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Recently we were deciding between a weekend trip to "A" or "B". I considerably prefer "B", but the choice becomes being with her when she is happy at "A" but unhappy at "B", and the first is far superior. I simply cannot be happy on a trip if she is unhappy. (yes she would go to "B" if I 'insisted', but the trip wouldn't be fun.
> 
> (this has parallels in our sex life as well of course).
> 
> Its tricky - each request is perfectly reasonable, and I do love her and want to do things for her - but it has turned into a one-way street.


Richard, I think you're underestimating the appeal of decisiveness. Sometimes it's not about the choice so much that you're ready to make a choice. Compromise actually has more meaning when you're not perceived as wishy-washy. Whether it's where to eat, where to go, what to do, etc. It's sucks to ask for input and the other person just say 'meh I don't care either way'. That doesn't even leave room to want different things and one compromises for the other.

In short, I suspect your wife will be happier because you care about where you go and voice it.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
Its not that I don't make my choice clear. "Why don't we go to Las Vegas" . 

I get the response "Its too (hot / cold / crowded/ noisy/ etc), I really don't enjoy it much. Lets have a nice relaxing vacation in New Orleans"

The truth is that I also enjoy a relaxing vacation in New Orleans, just not as much. She really will not enjoy Las Vegas - once she has decided that she doesn't want to go. She go, but it wouldn't be much fun for either of us.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Now see... my perspective is I would try my best to enjoy it. Find the fun where I am. It needs to be balanced. 

Sometimes I see women get too comfortable in their preferences and don't stretch themselves and it's just not a good habit to form.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> Its not that I don't make my choice clear. "Why don't we go to Las Vegas" .
> 
> I get the response "Its too (hot / cold / crowded/ noisy/ etc), I really don't enjoy it much. Lets have a nice relaxing vacation in New Orleans"
> ...


You: hon, I just booked us 2 tickets to Vegas! Barry Manilow, gambling, dancing til dawn! We'll have a blast!

Her: naw, it's too hot...

You: better for skimpy clothes and cold drinks!

Her: I don't know...

You: I'll give you a head start on the odds of winning!

Her: no, I don't like that...

You: too f'ng bad. This is where "I" want to go! 


Well, minus the f part...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Or:

"That is okay. I will let you know how my trip was when I get back."


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening farsidejunky

I have taken a number of trips without her. She doesn't seem to mind. I would prefer to travel with her. 



farsidejunky said:


> Or:
> 
> "That is okay. I will let you know how my trip was when I get back."


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## exhaustedmarriage (Nov 3, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> I have an interesting issue that may be common (or not).
> 
> I am very self-sufficient. While there are a lot of things I like and want, I rarely feel I "need" something from my wife. I rarely need help, need to be rescued etc. I'm very easy-going, for example I enjoy any vacation with my wife where she is happy - its just not that big a deal where we are - I'm happy lots of places.
> ...




Is she one of those people that constantly needs to be treated "special" and/or has a strong entitlement mentality? Just asking.


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## GA HEART (Oct 18, 2011)

It sounds like she is just the type of person that has a hard time if things don't go exactly the way she thinks they should. My mother is like this. The BF too, somewhat. I USED to be like this, until life slapped me around a few hundred times. I am MUCH more flexible now. 

Example:
When I was with my EX, we saved up and took the kids to Universal Studios for 2 days. I had EVERY detail planned out.....which park we were going to visit which day, the route we were going to take, how we were going to get there (via hotel shuttle.) My thoughts were to get as much enjoyment/action/rides/etc. crammed into the trip as possible.

Of course, when the hotel shuttle was running very late the first day, and although we were the first to get there and wait on it, other people shoved us out of the way and got on it first (causing room to run out and we had to wait for the second one.) I was PISSED. Because things were not going to plan. The whole time we waited on the second bus (we were already 1.5 hours behind "schedule") I was getting madder and madder. Once we finally made it to the park, it took me several more hours to get out of my funk. 

Looking back, I am so ashamed......I was stealing the joy from the experience. I realize NOW that being adaptable when things don't go my way is a MUCH better place to be.

For your W, maybe she NEEDS things to not go her way. Maybe she needs to learn how to be adaptable. Happiness is all in the mindset. I used to think that saying was hogwash, but it is VERY true. I am a much happier person in general now that I have learned to let go of the small stuff and enjoy what's in front of me.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

GA_HEART
yes, you have it exactly. She makes plans and schedules - and gets unhappy if things don't go as expected.

I tend to separate the "important" things on vacations - like avoiding being lost in the trackless wilderness or ending up in a 3rd world prison, from worrying about whether we manage to see all of the "attractions" we planned to see.


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## GA HEART (Oct 18, 2011)

Unfortunately, it took a complete upheaval in my life (a divorce and lots of loss) for me to see the err in my ways. When I was living like that, I didn't realize that I was being my own worst enemy. I am a MUCH happier person now that I have learned how to just LET life BE.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Now see... my perspective is I would try my best to enjoy it. Find the fun where I am. It needs to be balanced.
> 
> Sometimes I see women get too comfortable in their preferences and don't stretch themselves and it's just not a good habit to form.


:iagree: ......for both some men _and_ women. Many of us can get stuck in our molds and comfortable.


And since I wrote in this thread, I'm proud to share that I did go beneath the house to our sub-floor to understand what work needs to be done, as well as checking on the bait. Granted I did it with my husband there and through my own curiosity. He patiently waited as I shone the flashlight around (spider and cob-web check) before entering, but still, much less scary now that I've actually done the thing and have a better understanding of the renovation work that's needed as a result. Turns out, I was wrong about my own imposed limits about that. And I'll admit that it felt good.

I wonder how your wife would go if she were encouraged to face some of these things herself?


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

richardsharpe said:


> GA_HEART
> yes, you have it exactly. She makes plans and schedules - and gets unhappy if things don't go as expected.
> 
> I tend to separate the "important" things on vacations - like avoiding being lost in the trackless wilderness or ending up in a 3rd world prison, from worrying about whether we manage to see all of the "attractions" we planned to see.


How do you react when she's unhappy when things don't meet her expectations?


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

richardsharpe said:


> In general though I find the "weakness" defense difficult to fight. If something makes her seriously unhappy, I don't want to do it. Since a lot of things make her unhappy, it can leave me pretty stuck.


You do know it's not your responsibility to make her happy, right? You're in this together. There can be consideration given to her, but if we're talking simple things such as vacations, I don't understand why you'd allow yourself to feel stuck. 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but I'm imagining that she has learned (either through childhood or in her marriage to you) to get her way through demonstrating she's unhappy and by giving little consideration to how her reactions might affect you or the experiences you might like to have - or she doesn't care how it does. It seems to me, the more laidback you are, because you want her to be happy and you're happy if she is, the more this dynamic simply continues. Sometimes it's good to be uncomfortable. Does she demonstrate consideration to you?


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

You have establish a relationship where she comes first, and now you and her are probably use to it.

Slowly break the cycle.

This only pertains if you want to do something, and it matters to you.

Your marriage has formed this habit, and you have to communicate this to her,a and make her aware.

Know when to puyour foot down. 

You don't have to do it all the time, just when it matters.

Be cool, calm, and collective.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening heardsbeating
I try to convince her that things are not really all that bad. One time when our flight was canceled and we were "stuck" away from our final destination, I tried to suggest that we were in a fantastic hotel on the zillionth floor with a view of a spectacular downtown. We had a big city to explore - not exactly what we wanted to do, but not exactly a catastrophe either. Basically that I'd be quite happy to do some exploring with her, see what there was to see. 



heartsbeating said:


> How do you react when she's unhappy when things don't meet her expectations?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening heartsbeating
yes, she has always been a bit selfish, and I always a bit selfless. 

Where I am stuck is that it doesn't seem sensible to put my foot down over something that isn't important to me - like where we go on vacation. It would seem like insisting just so that I could "win". 



heartsbeating said:


> You do know it's not your responsibility to make her happy, right? You're in this together. There can be consideration given to her, but if we're talking simple things such as vacations, I don't understand why you'd allow yourself to feel stuck.
> 
> Maybe I'm misunderstanding but I'm imagining that she has learned (either through childhood or in her marriage to you) to get her way through demonstrating she's unhappy and by giving little consideration to how her reactions might affect you or the experiences you might like to have - or she doesn't care how it does. It seems to me, the more laidback you are, because you want her to be happy and you're happy if she is, the more this dynamic simply continues. Sometimes it's good to be uncomfortable. Does she demonstrate consideration to you?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Richard,

You've created a stalking horse - via this vacation topic. 

Your real theme with R2 is that she's ALSO quite capable of being selfish in that short list of areas where you care a LOT. 

Just before we got engaged I said to M2:

I'd estimate that about 95% of the time, you have a markedly strong preference for a particular outcome. And I've got that strength of preference maybe 5% of the time. 

M2: Are you saying I'm high maintenance? 

MEM: I'm saying we're a perfect match. 






richardsharpe said:


> Good evening heartsbeating
> yes, she has always been a bit selfish, and I always a bit selfless.
> 
> Where I am stuck is that it doesn't seem sensible to put my foot down over something that isn't important to me - like where we go on vacation. It would seem like insisting just so that I could "win".


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Richard, it is not just about vacation. If the same attitude prevails in all areas of the marriage, then it is all about her, and making her happy. And this is not good for relationship, it throws is off the balance. Even if you are loving person who loves to do things for your spouse and do not mind it, if you are on giving end most of the time, this is not attractive relationship for neither one of you. Maybe that's part of your LD/SD issues too - she needs you to be more decisive, not like jello. 

On a side note: does she know that New Orleans is not only hot, but also humid????


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Wanda
you are right that this affects all areas of our marriage. But - she definitely does not like it when I am decisive.





WandaJ said:


> Richard, it is not just about vacation. If the same attitude prevails in all areas of the marriage, then it is all about her, and making her happy. And this is not good for relationship, it throws is off the balance. Even if you are loving person who loves to do things for your spouse and do not mind it, if you are on giving end most of the time, this is not attractive relationship for neither one of you. Maybe that's part of your LD/SD issues too - she needs you to be more decisive, not like jello.
> 
> On a side note: does she know that New Orleans is not only hot, but also humid????


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Wanda
> you are right that this affects all areas of our marriage. But - she definitely does not like it when I am decisive.


How do you feel when you're decisive?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

heartsbeating said:


> How do you feel when you're decisive?


She gets unhappy, so I get unhappy. Its a trap of my own making - it matters more to me that she is happy than that I get or do any particular thing. Its my "weakness" that I'm really not bothered by much.

Its not that I'm a door-mat normally. Professionally I'm extremely decisive and have control / responsibility over quite a lot. I'm used to making decisions that involve a lot of money or people's time and careers. There too, I optimize my decisions for what is best for others, not myself - so the character flaw is still there.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

when she is unhappy you are unhappy too. Ok got that one. 

When are you happy?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Richard,

The flaw isn't that you are a giver. That's a wonderful quality. 
It's why your friends, colleagues and wife love you.

The flaw is your discomfort saying: This (whatever this is) is important to me. 

I only shared half our premarital conversation about the 95%/5% split on what matters.

The second half was me saying: be aware, that conflict inside my 5% will be painful, protracted and possibly fatal to our relationship. 
That's the stuff I really really care about. 

And yes - By then M2 knew what was in my 5%. And mostly I would say she's respected that. 




richardsharpe said:


> She gets unhappy, so I get unhappy. Its a trap of my own making - it matters more to me that she is happy than that I get or do any particular thing. Its my "weakness" that I'm really not bothered by much.
> 
> Its not that I'm a door-mat normally. Professionally I'm extremely decisive and have control / responsibility over quite a lot. I'm used to making decisions that involve a lot of money or people's time and careers. There too, I optimize my decisions for what is best for others, not myself - so the character flaw is still there.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Wanda
> you are right that this affects all areas of our marriage. But - she definitely does not like it when I am decisive.


Richard, you're very polite and intelligent. I'm not sure what that has to do with the rest of my comment but I like it so thank you. Okay you don't understand (or don't agree with) decisiveness being important. Please rethink this.

Decisiveness doesn't mean winning a battle. It just means knowing what you prefer and saying so. If your wife does the same then you both know and you can agree, disagree, and compromise as needed. The important part is that compromise requires a balance where both people have to compromise sometimes. Just because one person cares more about everything does not mean it's healthy for them to win every compromise. That's a bad dynamic.

Okay so the vacation isn't a big deal. That's fine but IMO you should pick and choose some things and make them important purely for the sake of balance. It's clear that you don't like some part of how things are now so change it. Make things different. Not because you care about the things but instead because you care about things being different.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening WandaJ
despite my comments on this site - I'm actually pretty happy most of the time. You guys see all of my problems and I expect that gives a very distorted image of what my life is like.

I wish my wife were happy more of the time. I wish she wanted more sex and were more adventuresome in bed. Otherwise life is good. 




WandaJ said:


> when she is unhappy you are unhappy too. Ok got that one.
> 
> When are you happy?


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