# A question for the Wayward



## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

I have wondered many times what went through the Wayward spouse head once their H/W became suspicious.

...and then again when confronted with actual evidence? 

What happened to YOU wayward once you saw how your spouse reacted to this truth about you? 

Once you fully realised the pain and destruction you had caused?

Did you get the reaction you expected? Did you fully expect to be thrown out and D?

Were you surprised that your S wanted to work things out?

I'm trying to understand and rationalize if my WH seeing me in the aftermath of his cheating would prevent him doing this again to me?


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

I think I am well with the mark when I state that it is a literal impossibility for a betrayer to understand up to 25% of what their victims go through. 

I think I can also safely state they really don't care very much. 

Some care to a degree, but when one realizes the magnitude of selfishness and disdain for the betrayed/marriage/family/kids a person has to have inside them to do what they do, it becomes readily clear they have no true concept to really give a damn. And that is why they continue to lie and want to “just move forward”… or try and justify their betrayal. 

It takes a special person to commit the single most inhumane action within a marriage that a human being can commit to another and it opens up exactly what kind of a person they are at their core.

All that to say I think you’ll get a lot of false answers from betrayers. It’s part & parcel of who they are.


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> I think I am well with the mark when I state that it is a literal impossibility for a betrayer to understand up to 25% of what their victims go through.
> 
> I think I can also safely state they really don't care very much.
> 
> ...



I dont know your story, but will look it up if it is posted here.

I agree with you that a WS will never fully realise the pain the unfaithfulness has caused to the betrayed spouse, but I don't believe the WS come to CWI to lie.....what would be the point of that?

I am looking for honest answers from the WS that post here.... I want to try and understand from their perspective, how they felt when they saw the reality of their actions on their spouse.

Of course many cheaters will re-offend *after* being caught....but I'm thinking many do not?


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

LRgirl said:


> I dont know your story, but will look it up if it is posted here.
> 
> I agree with you that a WS will never fully realise the pain the unfaithfulness has caused to the betrayed spouse, but I don't believe the WS come to CWI to lie.....what would be the point of that?
> 
> ...


I have never posted my original ‘story’. But to make it uber-short, married with one kid for 15 years and deeply _deeply_ in love with my wife. She was a stay at home mom and I made us a small but decent living (1100 SF house on an acre and a new car). One day I came home from work and she met me at the door. A wealthy man had fallen in love with her (she was very beautiful- 1/3 Sioux indian and had that olive complexion…), tossed out his wife & kids and she was moving in after a 3 month betrayal. She wanted to live a wealthy lifestyle… That lasted all of 3 weeks. I let her sleep on our couch and she professed her love…. So I made an effort to reconcile. Within a year she was at it again. That guy I beat on and threw her out. She begged to come back citing depression had caused all of it… and so in the end I left my career job and we moved to a small town close to her family to try and reconcile yet again. We did it all- counseling of all sorts, medications for her.... I caught her again about a year later, went home, packed my stuff and just left. Quit my job… and had had enough. She was smart, clever and cared for only one person- herself. As all betrayers do.

Now, back to your post. 

Betrayers are dishonest and deceptive to the core by their very nature and it is highly unlikely you will get an answer aside from what they want people to see. Unless you have truly walked a mile in someone else’s shoes one cannot identify with them. My ex has no concept of what I went through. Even if she wanted to she can’t possibly. Betrayers just shrug their shoulders and move forward while the betrayed is left with the pain in their hearts and stomach, loss of self value….. Betrayers have no clue about that stuff. None. And I don’t expect them to. I was taken to the E/R with heart attack symptoms due to the stress of everything. Who could possibly understand that but another betrayed? Certainly not the betrayer. So when I hear them say, “Oh, I know the pain I caused…”, it’s a load of crap. No they don’t. And they really don’t care because they haven’t the ability to. 

So while I like the premises of your thread, my opinion is that it’ll lead to false and disingenuous answers from people either pretending to care (because they have to) or not having a clue, even if they sort of want to.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

That's a crummy story to have to read bpguy, however I am going to have to disagree with you that not ALL of the wayward spouses here will give false or disingenuous answers. I know my own wife when she posts here tries her damndest to help people dealing with infidelity. There are a lot of other waywards who do the same.

Our pain is immeasurable. There's no RPM gauge on it...no GPS to tell how big it is. Nothing.

However, we can't let that pain define everything we say or write. Painting the sky with only one color isn't the way to create a piece of art.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> That's a crummy story to have to read bpguy, however I am going to have to disagree with you that not ALL of the wayward spouses here will give false or disingenuous answers. I know my own wife when she posts here tries her damndest to help people dealing with infidelity. There are a lot of other waywards who do the same.
> 
> Our pain is immeasurable. There's no RPM gauge on it...no GPS to tell how big it is. Nothing.
> 
> However, we can't let that pain define everything we say or write. Painting the sky with only one color isn't the way to create a piece of art.


I appreciate that for what it is, but let me try this....

If I was driving with a passenger (let us say a close friend), drive off the road and they end up in a wheelchair for life, how can I really feel what they are going through physically or emotionally? My life, on my two legs, goes forward as it was and theirs is unalterably changed forever. Even if I wanted to I can’t remotely understand what they are suffering. In any way. 

It’s the same with a betrayer and the betrayed. The loss of self respect, self worth, pain in the heart so bad that sleep is lost, food cannot be digested, near continuous videos of the betrayed with their lovers in the throes of passion, crazy abruptly thoughts wildly turning in our heads of anger and pity, torn between wanting to kill someone or just curl up and cry…. And for some just flat wishing you were dead. And the lies and deception, the loss of trust an faith… Who can possibly understand? 

Now, for the betrayer, it’s exciting, different, and an experience they will never forget. They rarely tell their betrayed that. I saw some of my ex’s letters. She may have had some regret because it was wrong (she was a very pious Christian), but she had never felt so alive, so wanted…. 

See for them it WAS an exciting experience and one they cherished. They can say they have regret, and I have no doubt some do. But for them it truly was an exciting glorious time that made them feel wonderful, and for us it’s pain and suffering as bad as the human condition can know. So how a betrayed can say they understand and know what the betrayed went through baffles me.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Some can some cannot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> I have never posted my original ‘story’. But to make it uber-short, married with one kid for 15 years and deeply _deeply_ in love with my wife. She was a stay at home mom and I made us a small but decent living (1100 SF house on an acre and a new car). One day I came home from work and she met me at the door. A wealthy man had fallen in love with her (she was very beautiful- 1/3 Sioux indian and had that olive complexion…), tossed out his wife & kids and she was moving in after a 3 month betrayal. She wanted to live a wealthy lifestyle… That lasted all of 3 weeks. I let her sleep on our couch and she professed her love…. So I made an effort to reconcile. Within a year she was at it again. That guy I beat on and threw her out. She begged to come back citing depression had caused all of it… and so in the end I left my career job and we moved to a small town close to her family to try and reconcile yet again. We did it all- counseling of all sorts, medications for her.... I caught her again about a year later, went home, packed my stuff and just left. Quit my job… and had had enough. She was smart, clever and cared for only one person- herself. As all betrayers do.
> 
> Now, back to your post.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry you went through this.........and I can understand why you post what you have under these circumstances.

I do hope there are members in this group who have been cheaters and who have chosen NEVER to cheat again!

I don't want to believe there are two camps, cheaters and non cheaters.


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## BackOnTrack (Oct 25, 2011)

LRgirl said:


> I have wondered many times what went through the Wayward spouse head once their H/W became suspicious.
> 
> ...and then again when confronted with actual evidence?
> 
> ...



I will never be able to fully comprehend the damage and pain I caused with my actions. And the fact that I was capable of doing it to begin with indicates that the reaction of my wife and seeing her destroyed is not what will keep me honest in the future. In other words, If I was capable of having an affair knowing it would cause pain when discovered, then her reaction and knowing how destroyed she was is not what will keep me from doing this in the future. 

So what will keep me from cheating in the future? My integrity. I absoultely hated what I had become. It went against every value I was taught. Living in fear every day was exhausting and self destructive. I hated the lies and deception that I became so good at and I simply refuse to ever allow myself to become that person again.

I can't rely on outside sources or other people's reactions to make myself do the right thing. That has to come from within.


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

SomedayDig said:


> That's a crummy story to have to read bpguy, however I am going to have to disagree with you that not ALL of the wayward spouses here will give false or disingenuous answers. I know my own wife when she posts here tries her damndest to help people dealing with infidelity. There are a lot of other waywards who do the same.
> 
> Our pain is immeasurable. There's no RPM gauge on it...no GPS to tell how big it is. Nothing.
> 
> However, we can't let that pain define everything we say or write. Painting the sky with only one color isn't the way to create a piece of art.


:iagree: I personally can not understand why any WS would come here to CWI and post untruths......it's one thing telling lies to loved ones to save further pain, its another to lie to oneself! (Surely!)

Any WS that come to post here we can only assume they do so with genuine reason.

Patiently waiting for the WS to help me out here on this thread


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

LRgirl said:


> I don't want to believe there are two camps, cheaters and non cheaters.


I need to apologize to you about my rants and will try to not hijack your thread. I also promise to not bang on betrayers who post on this thread as to me it is a neutral territory as they are being asked to post- so they have to be given some respect for that. Even if it is somewhat disingenuous.

However, I think I will, for the most part, disagree with your statement. I think people are who they are. They are either betrayers or not. Even if they never betray again, it doesn’t alter who they are at their core. I have moderated a different betrayal board and used to PM with many betrayers trying to understand them and their actions. Surprisingly, none had regret for what they did. Some had regret for the collateral damage, but to all of them it was fun and exciting- albeit wrong. Also, because I asked, all either had betrayed again after being caught or said they could easily do so but were making a “choice” not to. But for people like me, I couldn’t betray. I would end the relationship first and then have my fun times. And many people feel the same way as I do. 

So I think there are two camps. Those are given to betray and those who are not.


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

BackOnTrack said:


> I will never be able to fully comprehend the damage and pain I caused with my actions. And the fact that I was capable of doing it to begin with indicates that the reaction of my wife and seeing her destroyed is not what will keep me honest in the future. In other words, If I was capable of having an affair knowing it would cause pain when discovered, then her reaction and knowing how destroyed she was is not what will keep me from doing this in the future.
> 
> So what will keep me from cheating in the future? My integrity. I absoultely hated what I had become. It went against every value I was taught. Living in fear every day was exhausting and self destructive. I hated the lies and deception that I became so good at and I simply refuse to ever allow myself to become that person again.
> 
> I can't rely on outside sources or other people's reactions to make myself do the right thing. That has to come from within.


Thanks for this honest reply....... I am looking for quite specific answers to questions I think.

Did you realise your wife/husband would be so devastated?

Did it devastate you to see your wife/husband so distraught?

Does the reality of almost losing your wife/husband have an influence over if you will cheat again?


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

LRgirl said:


> I have wondered many times what went through the Wayward spouse head once their H/W became suspicious.
> 
> ...and then again when confronted with actual evidence?
> 
> ...


Here's my take on it, as a cheater.

First, I was glad I got caught. I didn't like cheating, didn't have the balls to confront my wife with the issues we had in the marriage for the past 15 years and hoped that by getting caught we would either divorce or be forced to work on our problems. I was surprised when she wanted to work on the problems, but I think she had other factors (afraid of being alone, financial issues) along with loving me that "forced" her to work on the problems.

Do I realize how hurt she was? Probably not. As another poster mentioned, how can you understand until you walk in their shoes?

I really believe there are three types of people... cheaters, like thatpbguy's wife who just kept on cheating, noncheaters, people who will take the corrective actions (counseling, divorce, whatever) instead of cheating, and people who make mistakes in a bad time in their life. 

I made a mistake, a huge mistake. In 40 years of marriage I only had that one affair and have not had one after coming clean with my wife. But a big part of that is because we have worked on the other issues. If you have issues in your marriage, cheat and don't try to fix those issues you don't address the root cause of the cheating (NOT meant to be a justification for cheating).


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## John2012 (Sep 18, 2012)

This thread should give some more feedback.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...u-regret-cheating-your-spouse-any-reason.html


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

LRgirl said:


> I have wondered many times what went through the Wayward spouse head once their H/W became suspicious.
> 
> ...and then again when confronted with actual evidence?
> 
> ...


My GF was aware that I was too close with some people and had called me out on my behavior before, but I was dismissive and didn't think I was "really" cheating because I'd never heard of an EA before. It wasn't until very late in the game that I started to feel uneasy and realize that I had really screwed up. Even then, I kept turning to self-deception and self-denial. I couldn't face myself and I couldn't face GF.

Our relationship had been troubled and lacking in communication for a while before my EAs (all 3 had some overlap), but I'm the one who reacted in a way that was wrong and destructive. I'm the one to blame. She didn't deserve what I did to her. I never intended to hurt her or betray her. She had the misfortune of choosing a broken person to share her life with. I was and am deeply ashamed of what I did and how I wronged her.

Once she confronted me and I saw myself and my actions and words through her eyes, realized how horrible I'd been, I fell apart. I would've committed suicide shortly after if she had utterly repudiated me, but she didn't. Even in the middle of D-day, she had love and compassion for me. I never expected that.

D-day actually occurred after I had been discussing R with GF for a few weeks, and happened because I told my last remaining OW that I was done with her and was going to make things right. I'm glad it happened though, because it brought everything out into the open and forced me to step up.

After seeing the effect of my behavior and betrayal on GF, I would NEVER do that to her again. I'm currently in therapy in order to fix what's wrong with me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

soulpotato said:


> My GF was aware that I was too close with some people and had called me out on my behavior before, but I was dismissive and didn't think I was "really" cheating because I'd never heard of an EA before. It wasn't until very late in the game that I started to feel uneasy and realize that I had really screwed up. Even then, I kept turning to self-deception and self-denial. I couldn't face myself and I couldn't face GF.
> 
> Our relationship had been troubled and lacking in communication for a while before my EAs (all 3 had some overlap), but I'm the one who reacted in a way that was wrong and destructive. I'm the one to blame. She didn't deserve what I did to her. I never intended to hurt her or betray her. She had the misfortune of choosing a broken person to share her life with. I was and am deeply ashamed of what I did and how I wronged her.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing this......

So why did you cheat do you think?

Did you realise how much your Gf loved you before she found out you cheated?

Was it 3 EA's......and were you aware you were crossing the line into an affair?

Did she catch you?


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## BackOnTrack (Oct 25, 2011)

> Thanks for this honest reply....... I am looking for quite specific answers to questions I think.
> 
> Did you realise your wife/husband would be so devastated?


Yes. I knew it would hurt her if she found out. The degree in which I hurt her was not something I ever thought about durring the affair. The anger is what I feared most. Anger would be the emotion that would determine if our marriage was to continue or if I had gone home for the last time. When I made the decision to go home and spill my guts, I figured it would likely be the end of my marriage. But it was time to do the right thing.



> Did it devastate you to see your wife/husband so distraught?


For the first hour, No. When I made the decision to come clean, I felt completely calm for the first time since the A began. It was surreal. Dead calm. I was finally off the fence and knew exactly what I wanted. I was ready and willing to do whatever needed to be done to fix this. But it was out of my hands and I was ok with that. As the hours passed and we had said everything we had to say, that's when I began to grasp the pain/anger she was feeling and then my intense emotions began. It was hell.



> Does the reality of almost losing your wife/husband have an influence over if you will cheat again?


Perhaps this would be more relevant to a serial cheater or someone interested in casual sex with strangers. Mine was neither. My A was the result of a broken marriage. In my mind, our marriage was already dead when the A began. What I mean is that I was not afraid to lose my wife when the affair began, because at the time I did not care anymore. 

The mindset of someone that has gotten to the point where an affair seems like a rational option makes this question irrelevant. I know for a fact that if I were to cheat again, she would be done with me. No question. But that has nothing to do with the reasons that I will never cheat again.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

BackOnTrack said:


> Yes. I knew it would hurt her if she found out. The degree in which I hurt her was not something I ever thought about durring the affair. The anger is what I feared most. Anger would be the emotion that would determine if our marriage was to continue or if I had gone home for the last time. When I made the decision to go home and spill my guts, I figured it would likely be the end of my marriage. But it was time to do the right thing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A genuine question as it puzzles me no end: 

You say that "if I were to cheat again, she would be done with me" but is that not what you thought the first time?


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## BackOnTrack (Oct 25, 2011)

Chris989 said:


> A genuine question as it puzzles me no end:
> 
> You say that "if I were to cheat again, she would be done with me" but is that not what you thought the first time?


Prior to the A, I guess I just assumed that anything could be fixed. Once the A began and durring the A, I did not put much thought into consequences. FYI, we had 2 ddays. On dday 1, I was caught and admitted to an EA. It was eventually swept under the rug. So as I had previously thought, everything was fixible.

I eventually ended up back in the A. I initiated dday 2 and came clean to EA/PA. At that point, I figured it was probably too late to salvage the marriage, but I had to try anyway. Fortunately, my wife gave me a final chance. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that there will be no other chances if I had resumed the A.

But as I said before, if the marriage is broken (and/or WS is just screwed up), the threat or fear of whether or not the BS will take back the WS is of very little importance. The fidelity going forward needs to be based on resoving the problems that lead to the affair. In my case, that meant both of us resolving long standing issues/resentment as well. It comes down to the WS making a decision to do the right thing.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Wow...

Just reading these stories breaks my heart all over again. . My x and I were not married, but we were living together for over 4 years. 

My heart breaks because he ended our r/s immediately after he told me he had been having an EA for several weeks. I was blindsided. 

You all have described my feelings so well. In a moment...in an INSTANT I lost my best friend, my lover, a place to live, a job (I worked for him). I was scared, confused, angry, bewildered, sad, and a few other emotions thrown in there for good measure. 

Neither he nor his AP gave a DAMN about the pain they caused. I saw an email that she sent my ex that said, "I don't want to hurt Vega", yet that's exactly what she participated in doing. 

Neither one of them will ever have any idea of the amount of pain they caused. It was pain that was so unnecessary. ANd I KNOW that my ex was NOT "unhappy" with me. In fact he wrote to her, "I have a pretty good thing with Vega". Three weeks later (with no fighting in between. We RARELY fought) he was telling me 'good-bye'.  

Over these past 14 months, I have learned a lot. I already knew NOT to blame myself, so at least I had THAT much going for me. I've also been able to witness a number of WS who ARE remorseful and who are willing to work on their relationships AND THEMSELVES in order to create a BETTER relationship. You all have no idea how badly I WISH I had that chance...

O.k. Needing a few kleenex now...

Vega


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

BackOnTrack said:


> Prior to the A, I guess I just assumed that anything could be fixed. Once the A began and durring the A, I did not put much thought into consequences. FYI, we had 2 ddays. On dday 1, I was caught and admitted to an EA. It was eventually swept under the rug. So as I had previously thought, everything was fixible.
> 
> I eventually ended up back in the A. I initiated dday 2 and came clean to EA/PA. At that point, I figured it was probably too late to salvage the marriage, but I had to try anyway. Fortunately, my wife gave me a final chance. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that there will be no other chances if I had resumed the A.
> 
> But as I said before, if the marriage is broken (and/or WS is just screwed up), the threat or fear of whether or not the BS will take back the WS is of very little importance. The fidelity going forward needs to be based on resoving the problems that lead to the affair. In my case, that meant both of us resolving long standing issues/resentment as well. It comes down to the WS making a decision to do the right thing.


Thank you for the answer. It really is very appreciated.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

LRgirl said:


> Thanks for sharing this......
> 
> So why did you cheat do you think?
> 
> ...


You're welcome.

There are a lot of contributing factors (things wrong with me, mostly), but I guess in a nutshell it was that I couldn't cope with or deal with the problems in my relationship with GF. Instead of working on fixing those (which I thought I was helpless to do), I turned to other people in order to escape from that and to try to get some of what was missing with GF/in my relationship (due to existing issues, the breakdown of communication, and building resentment and defensiveness on both sides).

I did not realize how much she loved me. That's partially my hangup and partially her naturally reserved nature. But the actions and behavior are there to support her love of me, especially with how she dealt with my infidelity. I still have trouble feeling that she loves me, but I have a lot of insecurity and abandonment issues.

It was 3 EAs, yes, and no, I did not realize I was crossing the line into affairs at that time. I argued with GF about it, told her they were just friends. It just escalated from there. The worse things became in my relationship with GF, the more I turned to other people. It was never about not loving her or wanting to leave. 

She didn't catch me, per se? She knew that I was too involved with these people, but the real D-day came when I told the last OW that I was done with her and was going to work on fixing things with GF. OW was absolutely enraged (she thought for sure she was going to get me after GF couldn't deal with me anymore), and turned around and emailed everything she could to GF. That was when GF found out the extent of the EA, which had really gained speed after GF and I had separated (but were still living together). Still, there were things said that were unacceptable while GF and I were still actively in a relationship.


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

LRgirl said:


> I have wondered many times what went through the Wayward spouse head once their H/W became suspicious.
> 
> ...and then again when confronted with actual evidence?
> 
> ...


If you have never been cheated on it's hard to know what it feels like. Even if you were cheated on in the past (like I was) that would be totally different then being cheated on in marriage.

I'm a over thinker, so I know that if I ever chose to cheat I would have contigency plan set up from the start in case of calamity meaning my wife finding out.

There are so many types of affairs I still don't get how they can be all lumped together. ONS, the neighbor, the coworker, the long lost love, the soulmate, how a affair of 4 hours at hotel can be the same as a 1 year affair with emotions and many physical encounters is puzzling to me.

Being a over thinker having a affair can be over thought to by the BS. It's just a choice they made! Why does the gambler gamble, the drinker drink, the businessman cheat to get ahead, the entrepeneur cheat on his taxes, most people cheat because the opportunity presented itself and for whatever reason the reward outweighed the risk. 

It's life it sucks! Only you can answer that question do you think your husband will cheat again? I know very few men who have remained faithful their entire marriage. Most have philandered in some way usually a ONS, but through the long haul are happily married. 

Best of luck!!


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

OhGeesh said:


> If you have never been cheated on it's hard to know what it feels like. Even if you were cheated on in the past (like I was) that would be totally different then being cheated on in marriage.
> 
> I'm a over thinker, so I know that if I ever chose to cheat I would have contigency plan set up from the start in case of calamity meaning my wife finding out.
> 
> ...


Thank you, I'm an over thinker too.

"opportunity presented itself and for whatever reason the reward outweighed the risk. " << Kinda kills me  but I know at that moment in time this was true, or he would have chosen me and not some quick fix.

I'm stuck in the revolving door right now..going nowhere fast it would seem., I can't go out the door, and I can't go back in either.


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## PastOM (Apr 12, 2013)

LRgirl said:


> I have wondered many times what went through the Wayward spouse head once their H/W became suspicious.
> 
> ...and then again when confronted with actual evidence?
> 
> ...


Doesn't that depend on the value system between the BS and WS? My xW and I would have arguments about our sensibilities towards animals. She loved them and would pay $3,000 for dialyses of a cat in renal failure. I told her to euthanize it and buy a new one for $15. This can be interpreted as me being totally insensitive to her emotional needs. On the other hand, I could be seen as being rational, realistic and pragmatic. If I had an affair and she reacted in an extreme way, I wonder if I would have transferred my knowledge of her cat sensibilities to part of her hurt.

In my case, I didn't have an affair, and actually never thought about it. I'm just positing that there must be more foundational reasons for not repeating wayward behavior, than merely the reaction of the BS.


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## 2asdf2 (Jun 5, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> -------------snip-------------
> 
> *See for them it WAS an exciting experience and one they cherished.* They can say they have regret, and I have no doubt some do. But for them it truly was an exciting glorious time that made them feel wonderful
> 
> -------------snip-------------


I am sure this is true for my WW but I imagine this is not true for every WS.

Reading the bewilderment expressed on this board, BS's don't usually grasp this fact as we search for NC, remorse, and the rest.


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## MOH820 (Apr 29, 2013)

LRgirl said:


> Thanks for this honest reply....... I am looking for quite specific answers to questions I think.
> 
> Did you realise your wife/husband would be so devastated?
> 
> ...


I'm new to this thread, just posted my story a bit ago myself, under the title of Trying to Make it Right. 

I have never ever been a cheater or a betrayor until this past December. (probably easier if you read my post then come back) But I allowed my reaction to a series of unfortunate situations to get the best of me.

I knew he would be devestated. He loves me more than words can say and it broke him, and it broke me to see him look so lost and alone and utterly defeated. If we are able to move forward and come to terms with what I did, I will never forget that moment, when I saw his complete and utter despair.

I have been in therapy since the incident. One of the very first things she said to me is that at some point, I'm going to have to face the person in the mirror. Face her and forgive her. Because without forgiving myself, I can't move forward. She also told me that relationships are about being on the same team, fighting for the same common goal, and not fighting one another. 

I realize the gravity of my actions, I realize the foolishness of them, and I have solemnly sworn that I won't do it again. I believe that because I am putting everything I have into figuring out who I was, what I became, and who I'm going to be. And I know that I made a massive mistake, believe me, I know. But I am dedicated to fighting for my marriage and for bettering my health.

I hope that garbled message makes sense!


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

MOH820 said:


> I'm new to this thread, just posted my story a bit ago myself, under the title of Trying to Make it Right.
> 
> I have never ever been a cheater or a betrayor until this past December. (probably easier if you read my post then come back) But I allowed my reaction to a series of unfortunate situations to get the best of me.
> 
> ...


Hi MOH, if i be so bold as to give you some advice, from a BS point of view?

Don't ever under-estimate the effect you cheating has had on your H. Don't ever under-estimate the time it will take for him to fully, if ever see you as you were before he found out you cheated. Don't under-estimate the time it will take for his broken heart to even begin to mend....

Stay vigilant, be very aware of his bad days, be right there with him....you will have to be almost one step ahead in knowing what might trigger him...and be close to hug him so he knows you are 'with' him, that you haven't 'moved on' in the healing without him....be readily available to talk if he needs to.

This is my problem now....and it's the biggest to date. It is the one thing that is making me feel like separation is the only way forward for me in the long run.

And I love mu H very much, and I know he loves me too....but love just isn't enough!


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

I can't relate to how my husband felt and what he went through. I only know what it felt like knowing I caused this much pain and agony. I only know what it felt like taking a step back and looking at myself. I know what it feels like to feel guilty and ashamed to the bone. I know what it feels like when other people look at me thinking "She cheated on her husband". I know what it feels like looking into my husband's eyes and seeing disgust for me. I know what it feels like to want to comfort my husband but not being able to because I'm the reason for his pain. Some of these feelings have changed over time, I don't see disgust in his eyes anymore. I was never able to get rid of or deal with the guilt and I think it's supposed to be that way. It's a part of me. It represents who I was and I can't change that.

I strongly disagree with the notion that a betrayer will always be a betrayer. Some are serial cheaters, some only cheat once. There are no reliable statistics (cheaters lie, right?). 

My EA isn't some great, exciting time where I felt so alive and wonderful. At the time of the EA it was but it isn't anymore. I don't think about it that way at all. It's a time in my life I rather not talk about because I'm ashamed of it. It's a time in my life I wish I could erase because I am not that person anymore. To me and today, the EA is nothing but wasted time I could have spent being a good wife instead of a cheater. There's nothing glorious about it. There is nothing exciting to remember, NOTHING. I understand that many feel compelled to paint every cheater with the same brush and project their spouse's actions onto any cheater. It still doesn't change the fact that not every cheater is just like everyone else's cheating spouse.

I deeply regret what I did, I regret the EA, I regret the outcome, I regret my lies, I regret the damage I caused. I don't regret getting caught, not for a moment but I regret that I didn't have the guts to end the EA and confess.

The outcome of it had a profound impact on me and my marriage. We have a better marriage today. We now work together and we spend all our free time together as well. I learned a lot about myself, about my husband, our daughter, what life is about, what my husband wants, what I want and how we are going to spend our future years. But no, I'm not saying I'm glad things happened the way they did. I'm saying that I was lucky to have a husband willing to give me a second chance. 

I don't have any reason to come to this board and lie about anything. It is what it is, people can like it or not, it doesn't change a thing.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

LRgirl said:


> Thanks for this honest reply....... I am looking for quite specific answers to questions I think.
> 
> Did you realise your wife/husband would be so devastated?
> 
> ...


*No.* I had an online friendship she treated like a PA (the "OW" was in China, never met her, never would). I was not in love, but signed emails "Love, ___" so my wife made that the worst thing in her mind that it could possibly be. Perception is 100% reality.
*Yes.* I *hate *seeing the pain in her and the triggers that were set in her mind.
*Yes.* In over 50 years on this planet, I found my very first real love, and I almost screwed that up. 

On the other hand, I will tell you that although I felt some guilt for past indiscretions, my last marriage of 20 years *I* ended not because I had some on the side, but because I just got tired of living with a sexless, patholoical liar. So yeah, I justified and in retrospect, I was a real POS sometimes. I'm permanently, spiritually, intrinsically reformed from ever cheating again.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

LRgirl said:


> I have wondered many times what went through the Wayward spouse head once their H/W became suspicious.
> 
> ...and then again when confronted with actual evidence?
> 
> ...


Each case is different of course, but I found it odd that my wife knew all about it for a year -- I felt that what I had been doing had tacit approval since she had my email passwords from the very beginning. But she was very pained from the outset. I never knew her as someone passive; she would surely point out to me anything I was doing wrong or that upset her. But she didn't. So I was confused, and disappointed in myself for not divining her pain. I hate seeing her pain. 

Once I fully realized it was a real smack to my brain. A real painful, heartbreaking experience. I love this woman, I hurt this woman. Damn.

I figured things were over. Tick tock, she said many times. But we made it through the initial shock, and we made it through another year of "training" each other to communicate better/differently. She had changes she needed to make as well, and had her own sh1t going on as well, which muddles this story so I won't go into it. 

Those are things I felt. Whether or not I thought I was having an affair, she thought it was, and I felt like crap for that.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

We don't expect men who beat their wives to understand the pain that they inflict. We think of them as weak people who lash out and inflict pain on those they claim to love to make up for their own insecurities and inadequacies. We don't believe them when they show remorse and promise that it will never happen again. We usually feel contempt rather than an sort of sympathy for them. We don't really want to bother to understand them. 

So why is it any different with someone whose abuse just happens to be emotional rather than physical?


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## ChangingMe (Oct 3, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> We don't expect men who beat their wives to understand the pain that they inflict. We think of them as weak people who lash out and inflict pain on those they claim to love to make up for their own insecurities and inadequacies. We don't believe them when they show remorse and promise that it will never happen again. We usually feel contempt rather than an sort of sympathy for them. We don't really want to bother to understand them.
> 
> So why is it any different with someone whose abuse just happens to be emotional rather than physical?


Does this not depend on the person? 

My first counseling position was co-leading groups in a Violence Intervention and Prevention Program for people charged with family violence. There were people that went through the program and still could not see that their actions were wrong.

But then there were people who saw the light, learned from their mistakes (or bad choices or wrongful actions -you pick the phrasing), and quite literally changed their ways. We had men who came back and volunteered as co-facilitators because they were so stricken by what they had done and wanted to help others to see the damage they were causing. 

It wasn't everybody, but there were some. People can change. Even those that have done terrible damage. And the fact that some people choose to look on them only with contempt or who don't bother to try to understand them doesn't mean that change isn't possible.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

ChangingMe said:


> Does this not depend on the person?
> 
> My first counseling position was co-leading groups in a Violence Intervention and Prevention Program for people charged with family violence. There were people that went through the program and still could not see that their actions were wrong.
> 
> ...


Your post doesn't mention victims once, let alone consider their point of view or the pain they have gone through.

Whilst of course it's good when abusers reform, going back and helping on recovery programs is all about them rather than their victims. It is an attempt to make them feel better about themselves, to assuage their feelings of guilt and to make amends - but not directly to their victims. 

Your post and the recovery steps you outline focus entirely on the abusers and their needs. The victims, once again, are invisible and forgotten - their needs and their pain pushed into the background and disregarded with no attempt made even to begin to understand it. 

But thank you for illustrating so vividly that abusers' focus remains firmly on themselves, even when they reform. You even include a nice little bit of implied criticism at the end for people who don't "bother" to try to understand the abusers. Oh, poor, poor them.

The OP asks whether the wayward understand the pain they have caused and how she can be sure that her WH won't do it again. How can she ever trust him again if he never "bothers to understand" (to use your phrase) what he has put her through?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

doubletrouble said:


> *No.* I had an online friendship she treated like a PA (the "OW" was in China, never met her, never would). I was not in love, but signed emails "Love, ___" so my wife made that the worst thing in her mind that it could possibly be. Perception is 100% reality.


I can see both sides of this. Of course there is such a thing as an innocent online friendship - but that can so easily slip into EA territory, with the WS telling themselves that they are doing nothing wrong.

FWIW, my wife had a long distance EA with someone from her home country. They were old friends from school who reconnected on the internet and hit it off - same age, both married with kids, etc. But she started pouring her heart out to him about everything that was wrong with her life and her marriage. And, in order to do this, she started using Messenger-type apps on her phone (no Text trace), set up a secret GMail account and quietly unfriended me on Facebook (which I rarely use anyway so I didn't notice). The fact that all of this was electronic rather than face-to-face made no difference at all. 

I would say the distinction between "just a friendship" and EA boils down to 3 questions:

1. Are you telling the other person things that you are not telling your spouse - particularly intimate/emotional things or things about your spouse and your marriage.

2. Do you feel uncomfortable about your spouse knowing about the friendship, seeing any of your messages, knowing when you are chatting online with this person or knowing how many messages you have exchanged or how much time and/or emotional energy you are putting into the friendship?

3. Have you taken steps to keep the friendship secret - secret email accounts, secret means of communication (such as Messenger apps that your wife knows nothing about) or simply guarding your phone/PC?

IMO, if the answer to any of the above is "yes" then it is an EA. At very least there are things that you are withholding from your spouse, which is at very least a breach of trust.


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## ChangingMe (Oct 3, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Your post doesn't mention victims once, let alone consider their point of view or the pain they have gone through.
> 
> Whilst of course it's good when abusers reform, going back and helping on recovery programs is all about them rather than their victims. It is an attempt to make them feel better about themselves, to assuage their feelings of guilt and to make amends - but not directly to their victims.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, it appears you have misunderstood my post. It was ONLY a response to your post, and one in which I quoted YOU. You used the phrase about not bothering to understand the abuser, and just writing them off. All I said was, while that is your choice, it doesn't mean the person is above change. That's not criticism -I can completely understand why someone who has been hurt does not want to take the time to understand their abuser. They don't have to; I think it is more likely that they choose not to than that they make the attempt. And I get that, I really do. 

You are right, I did not mention victims except to say that the abuser has caused terrible damage. That in NO WAY means that I don't think the victims are suffering an extreme amount. Read one thread on CWI or spend one day in my house, and you will see this pain. 

But, as my post was a response to your post, I did not mention victims because _neither did you_. 

For the record, as for understanding the victims and the damage abusers cause -whether in family violence or infidelity -I believe it is 100% necessary for a person to truly understand the devastation they have caused if they are to be able to attempt to help their victim heal, and to have any confidence that they will not repeat the behavior. Most of the program that I was involved in was spent on acknowledging the other's pain and the damage inflicted. And I think it is safe to say that much of the reason WS stick with TAM is because they are trying to learn and heal and help those that they have hurt. Making amends is a HUGE part in reform, in both areas. This doesn't mean that every WS does this of course, but there are ones that do. As for your final question, I think you hit the nail on the head, the WS of the OP has to do much more than "bother" to understand what he's put her through. He has to see it and feel it for himself (as much as a WS can) in order for her to have any hope of trusting him not to hurt her again.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

LRgirl, any luck with getting your WH to come to TAM?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

ChangingMe said:


> I'm sorry, it appears you have misunderstood my post. It was ONLY a response to your post, and one in which I quoted YOU


Thank you for the clarification. However, if I misunderstood your post then I think that you misunderstood mine. 

I was drawing a comparison between the attitudes towards physical and emotional abusers. Men who beat women (and a fair number of women beat men, too, although it is more hidden) are regarded with contempt and their actions seen as something that no decent person would ever come close to doing. Even if reformed, there is a heavy stigma attached to being a wife-beater - or even a non-violent husband who is deemed to be "controlling" or unreasonable.

The same is not true of those guilty of emotional abuse (and an affair is a form of emotional abuse) - even though emotional abuse can be at least as damaging as physical abuse. It is generally regarded as more understandable, more forgiveable and more "curable". 

I was saying that perhaps we should look at those who are emotionally abusive in the same way as we look at those who are physically abusive - hence my ending question "So why is it any different with someone whose abuse just happens to be emotional rather than physical?". 

I got the impression that your response to that was to stick up for abusers and to say that they are not that bad really because some of them can change and show remorse. 

No point in having a spat about it. We both misunderstood each other, it seems. Let's shake hands <virtual shake> and move on.


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## ChangingMe (Oct 3, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> I was saying that perhaps we should look at those who are emotionally abusive in the same way as we look at those who are physically abusive - hence my ending question "So why is it any different with someone whose abuse just happens to be emotional rather than physical?".
> 
> I got the impression that your response to that was to stick up for abusers and to say that they are not that bad really because some of them can change and show remorse.
> 
> No point in having a spat about it. We both misunderstood each other, it seems. Let's shake hands <virtual shake> and move on.


I completely agree with your points. I think infidelity most definitely can be put under the category of emotional abuse. It is the most abusive and damaging thing I have ever done in my life. 

It was not my intent in ANY way to stick up for abusers -whether they be physical or emotional. My sincerest apologies to everyone if my post came off that way. I am disgusted by what I have done, just as I was disgusted by the actions of the people who went through the VIPP program (more so with my actions though, since it was to people I know and love). 

What I took from your post is that no one is capable of change, being cheaters or being batterers. I have seen this proven false with batterers, and I pray to God that I will prove it false myself in regards to infidelity. You can tell by my handle that I believe change is in fact possible, and as a counselor, I believe it whole-heartedly. This does not mean that everyone cares enough to work hard to make these changes, but there are people who are doing their absolute best to become better. 

Alright, my apologies for this thread jack. I just felt the need to clarify, especially if I came off as defending, since that thought makes me feel ill. 

I accept your virtual shake, Voltaire, and I will this thread get back to its original intent.


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

soulpotato said:


> LRgirl, any luck with getting your WH to come to TAM?


Yeah, he is reading but not posting, well not recently any way. He is a member of TAM (megmg) But being here and reading most nights over the past week is a good start.

Thanks for asking


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

Voltaire said:


> I can see both sides of this. Of course there is such a thing as an innocent online friendship - but that can so easily slip into EA territory, with the WS telling themselves that they are doing nothing wrong.
> 
> I would say the distinction between "just a friendship" and EA boils down to 3 questions:
> 
> ...


Well...

1. No, because she had all my email and chat passwords. She could look any time. We talked about pretty mundane things, and avoided politics because "our governments don't agree on much." Which has always been true. I was more interested in China than a Chinese woman. 

2. Again no, see above. I had been chatting with that woman for several years, and before we were a couple, my now-wife knew I was chatting with her all along. It was never an emoational connection. I never met the gal, and although I'll admit to curiosity about her at one point in the friendship, I never intended to act on it. When she got married and had a kid, I was happy for them, not jealous. 

3. Again, my wife had all my email and chat passwords, and because of that, I thought it was all above-board. I'll admit I didn't even think she was really reading my emails, as I wasn't reading hers (my mistake, but that's another story).


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

Voltaire said:


> We don't expect men who beat their wives to understand the pain that they inflict. We think of them as weak people who lash out and inflict pain on those they claim to love to make up for their own insecurities and inadequacies. We don't believe them when they show remorse and promise that it will never happen again. We usually feel contempt rather than an sort of sympathy for them. We don't really want to bother to understand them.
> 
> So why is it any different with someone whose abuse just happens to be emotional rather than physical?


I have walked in those shoes. My husband was an aggressive alcoholic. I felt contempt as well as sympathy for him. I knew he wasn't born a mean person but I do believe that the tendency to abuse alcohol is hereditary. I did see remorse in my husband but then it happened again and then again and again. One day, I took my daughter and walked away (leaving the house to physically remove myself from a dangerous situation and stay with a neighbor until he had sobered up). My husband believed I was going to walk away from the marriage and said his Good-Bye's to his daughter. I didn't tell him I was going to be back. It was the last time he drank, it's been 12 years now. I trust my husband 100 % to never drink and/or be violent again. He hasn't let me down.
This all happened BEFORE I cheated and I didn't cheat because he drank etc.


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## ChangingMe (Oct 3, 2012)

LRgirl said:


> Thanks for this honest reply....... I am looking for quite specific answers to questions I think.
> 
> Did you realise your wife/husband would be so devastated?
> 
> ...


Here are my answers to your questions, LR. My answers sound a little silly now, and I apologize for that. I am nearly a year past DDay and I honestly have trouble putting my brain back in the place I was at when I was cheating. I 'know' that was me of course, but I can't quite comprehend what I was thinking at the time. It doesn't make me less accountable for my actions, of course, but it's hard to make sense of how I could allow myself to act in the way I did and not give more thought to the consequences. 

*1. Did you realise your wife/husband would be so devastated?*
No. I expected him to be angry. I knew there would be some hurt there as well, but I in no way grasped how deep and all-encompassing his pain would be. We will be 11 months past DDay this month, and it is still a very fresh wound for him. I also did not anticipate how far-reaching the devastation would go -the impact it would have on our children, our extended families, our friends. There seems to be nothing in our lives that my affair hasn't impacted negatively. I didn't give that much (if any) thought while I was cheating, and I told my H about 3 days after DDay that it felt like I was standing at Ground Zero after an enormous earthquake, with everything leveled, and I was the cause. I could not have fathomed how much pain and damage I was capable of causing. 

* 2. Did it devastate you to see your wife/husband so distraught?*
Yes. A million times yes. This was my husband, my best friend, the one person I have leaned on and who has leaned on me for nearly 2 decades. He is hurting more than I have ever seen him hurt, and all I want to do is hold him and help AND HE WON'T LET ME BECAUSE I WAS THE ONE THAT HURT HIM. I can't heal his pain, and it overwhelms me. He literally considered killing himself -my strong, fun-loving husband and the father of my two young children -and *I* did this to him. I brought him to that place. All the ugly and hateful things he has said to me over the past 11 months do not compare to the things I have said to myself. It is so painful to see him hurt. This is what I cry about, alone at work in my office. I cry about the hurt I've caused him.

*3. Does the reality of almost losing your wife/husband have an influence over if you will cheat again?*
Yes, but I think the biggest factor that will keep me from cheating again is seeing the impact it had on my husband and children. It took all of about a day to see that the A was nothing but a stupid, selfish farce with no significance. The A was short-lived (basically 2 months of EA, then 2 months of PA). We are already well past the length of it, and yet I cannot tell you when (or even if) we will heal from the damage I caused. I don't ever want to hurt another person -especially someone I love deeply -like I have ever again. 

Potentially losing him does have an influence though. My H made me leave the house on DDay, and I stayed with my parents for about 6 weeks. It was a huge shock to be thrown out, to move back home after being out of my parents' house for 15 years. I couldn't eat or sleep, could barely work but did my best, since I figured I would soon be supporting myself. I lost 10 lbs in about 10 days, and at 5'2", that's a lot on my frame. It was only because the kids were taking it so hard that he allowed me to move back home. As recently as this Monday, he told me he wanted a divorce, so he is still back and forth on whether or not he can stay married to me. I know I want to be with him more than anything, and the thought of us divorcing is agonizing, but I realize I am the one who has brought that option to the table. I pray that we don't go that route, that we can stay together and grow close once again. And I will spend my life proving to him that I can be the wife that he deserves and that I will always be grateful for him allowing me the chance to show him that. I will never take that for granted.

I hope this helps in some way. I am sorry you are here, LR. I am sorry you are going through this.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

LRgirl said:


> Yeah, he is reading but not posting, well not recently any way. He is a member of TAM (megmg) But being here and reading most nights over the past week is a good start.
> 
> Thanks for asking


It's awesome that he's reading so much.  First step! It took me a bit to really start participating, too. I hope he'll be joining us soon! *nudges LRgirl's hubby*  

You're welcome.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

To a greater or lesser extent, empathy is effectively "gone" from the WS and thereby ceases to exist in their own mind. Once the emotional connection is firmly and mutually made in this exciting new illicit relationship of theirs, regardless of any inherent requisite carnal physicalities, the WS couldn't give a "tinker's damn" about the feelings and emotions of their betrayed counterpart!

They are now firmly entrenched in a whole new unremorseful world, greatly of their own choosing!


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

ChangingMe said:


> Here are my answers to your questions, LR. My answers sound a little silly now, and I apologize for that. I am nearly a year past DDay and I honestly have trouble putting my brain back in the place I was at when I was cheating. I 'know' that was me of course, but I can't quite comprehend what I was thinking at the time. It doesn't make me less accountable for my actions, of course, but it's hard to make sense of how I could allow myself to act in the way I did and not give more thought to the consequences.
> 
> *1. Did you realise your wife/husband would be so devastated?*
> No. I expected him to be angry. I knew there would be some hurt there as well, but I in no way grasped how deep and all-encompassing his pain would be. We will be 11 months past DDay this month, and it is still a very fresh wound for him. I also did not anticipate how far-reaching the devastation would go -the impact it would have on our children, our extended families, our friends. There seems to be nothing in our lives that my affair hasn't impacted negatively. I didn't give that much (if any) thought while I was cheating, and I told my H about 3 days after DDay that it felt like I was standing at Ground Zero after an enormous earthquake, with everything leveled, and I was the cause. I could not have fathomed how much pain and damage I was capable of causing.
> ...


I feel very similar to your H. I swing from doing my best to R, as much for the children as for the two of us....and then I swing back to thinking about divorce.....not because I want to, not because I want to punish him....i can see how very sorry he is, and i don't believe he will cheat on me in the future, but I just don't know.


I've had suspicions about my H since February 2011...

I actually discovered evidence of him cheating in September 2011. He didn't confess, he denied until he had no choice to admit as I'd contacted the OW. A stupid meaningless incident with a complete tramp from work back in Dec 08.

He lied to me for 12 months, telling me this was a one and only incident. 

But my original suspicions were raised back in February '11 as he'd been away on a conference over night....and i found evidence in his clothing which suggested he _might_ have been unfaithful.....but back then I would never have believed it off him...I trusted him 100%.

But things niggled at me, and one day i picked up his phone (BB) and saw an inappropriate flirty message to a young woman who he had connections with via work....this was in May 2011....so between February and May i'd tried to ignore my suspicions, but once I'd seen that flirty message I quickly realised my h wasn't entirely who I thought he was. 

I confronted him and even though he seemed genuinely shocked I thought something was going on with this woman in the email, it was the look of guilt written all over his face. He acted guilty. I just didn't twig his guilt was from something else.

I'd started reading his emails after seeing the phone message. 

So the first actual evidence I eventually found (Sept '11) was an email, an explicit no strings attached offer, from a tramp in work, dated Dec 08.

It took me 4 months to find this email. He hadn't emptied his 'sent' folder. He finally admitted to that when he had no choice, but spent a full 12 months telling me that it had been a one off incident, offered to him on a plate and he 'tried it' and he promised me, and swore on my children's lives he had done nothing else, ever!

We talked almost every night, we discussed every thing, we counselled one another, we were R, but my niggle would not go away....I was convinced something had happened at the conference.

12 months after dd1, I told him he was having a poly. This is when he came forward with another 2 incidents. Both along the lines of ONS. 

However, I am not convinced the last one which did happen in February 2011 (so my original instincts were bang on!) was a ONS. My gut says more went on than he is willing to tell me.

This is why I am struggling so much now. I'm still not certain I have the whole truth, and without that we can not move forward with our lives........ I feel trapped in limbo.

I feel like he wont trust me with the whole truth.... I feel the poly will have to be booked for me to have closure if nothing else.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

ChangingMe said:


> I accept your virtual shake, Voltaire


Great. Life's too short. Let's be friends!

And let me say that I'm impressed by the straightforward honesty of your responses to LR's questions.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> To a greater or lesser extent, empathy is effectively "gone" from the WS and thereby ceases to exist in their own mind. Once the emotional connection is firmly and mutually made in this exciting new illicit relationship of theirs, regardless of any inherent requisite carnal physicalities, the WS couldn't give a "tinker's damn" about the feelings and emotions of their betrayed counterpart!
> 
> They are now firmly entrenched in a whole new unremorseful world, greatly of their own choosing!


I still had empathy for GF in general, but the infidelity was a huge blind spot for me. It was weird, because if it was anything but things related to my infidelity, I was trying to take care of her and worrying about her even when we were fighting. If anyone had asked me if I'd do anything for her, I would've said yes without hesitation, yet there I was dismissing her concerns and feelings about my inappropriate relationships with other people. There was no conflict in my heart when it came to risking life and limb for her if it ever came to that, or that I would choose to save her life over anyone else's. Even after we separated, it was the same. She's still the designated beneficiary on my life insurance. I don't know why there was that disconnect when it came to the emotional equivalent. Weakness, blindness, selfishness, some combination. I don't know. I couldn't see it then, but I see it now.

Talk about hypocrisy, fancy compartmentalization, and self-deception. I just couldn't deal with the problems in our relationship and in myself, so I tried to escape and distract myself, to selfishly try to scrape by with the attention and approval from others. I dealt with everything in the wrong way, in the most destructive way. Meanwhile, I left her high and dry, suffering all alone, betrayed and abandoned by the person she loved and trusted most in the world.  I never stopped loving her, but I certainly stopped showing it and acting like it. I focused on her less and less because it caused me more pain and discomfort than I could endure at that time (I had no distress tolerance) and I didn't know how to fix our relationship. Yet I never wanted to leave her side. I couldn't reconcile the two - don't know how to fix, yet don't want to leave. I felt like I couldn't break through to her no matter how I tried, but instead of sitting her down and saying, "Look, things have to change with both of us or we can't stay together," I just started looking to other people and ended up sliding into EAs (which I didn't think was cheating for the longest time, and didn't realize that even being too emotional and attached to a friend counts as EA territory). My practically nonexistent boundaries and lack of awareness of what constituted a healthy interaction with anyone, no matter what type of relationship I had with them, made it something that was not nearly as difficult as it should have been.  That is my fault, and totally on me. I am a broken person who has some serious gaps in my foundation, and that sadly affected and damaged her. I'm making the repairs to bring the structure of me up to code, but I'm well aware that it's something that never should have been a problem in the first place.

I still don't know sometimes why she didn't turn her back on me, but if she wants to R with me, I will give everything I've got. Which I should have done before, but was too afraid to do. Though she has not agreed to R yet (she has been considering it and evaluating me for the last several months), I'm doing everything that needs to be done to make it possible and insure that we can be successful. After all, how could I imagine it was possible for her to take that risk and make that commitment again if I didn't show her something worth trying for? How could I imagine that she could consider R if I didn't show her something to prove that I'm changing and that she'll be able to trust me and rely upon me in the future?

Those of us waywards who have spouses or partners considering R or being willing to R are damned fortunate. We don't deserve the second chance, but by their grace and belief that we can be better human beings than we have been before, it may be granted to us. It is a humbling and deeply moving thing when your betrayed can look at you and still see someone worth one more moment of their time, let alone their affection or commitment.

Sorry for the ramble.


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

soulpotato said:


> I still had empathy for GF in general, but the infidelity was a huge blind spot for me. It was weird, because if it was anything but things related to my infidelity, I was trying to take care of her and worrying about her even when we were fighting. If anyone had asked me if I'd do anything for her, I would've said yes without hesitation, yet there I was dismissing her concerns and feelings about my inappropriate relationships with other people. There was no conflict in my heart when it came to risking life and limb for her if it ever came to that, or that I would choose to save her life over anyone else's. Even after we separated, it was the same. She's still the designated beneficiary on my life insurance. I don't know why there was that disconnect when it came to the emotional equivalent. Weakness, blindness, selfishness, some combination. I don't know. I couldn't see it then, but I see it now.
> 
> Talk about hypocrisy, fancy compartmentalization, and self-deception. I just couldn't deal with the problems in our relationship and in myself, so I tried to escape and distract myself, to selfishly try to scrape by with the attention and approval from others. I dealt with everything in the wrong way, in the most destructive way. Meanwhile, I left her high and dry, suffering all alone, betrayed and abandoned by the person she loved and trusted most in the world.  I never stopped loving her, but I certainly stopped showing it and acting like it. I focused on her less and less because it caused me more pain and discomfort than I could endure at that time (I had no distress tolerance) and I didn't know how to fix our relationship. Yet I never wanted to leave her side. I couldn't reconcile the two - don't know how to fix, yet don't want to leave. I felt like I couldn't break through to her no matter how I tried, but instead of sitting her down and saying, "Look, things have to change with both of us or we can't stay together," I just started looking to other people and ended up sliding into EAs (which I didn't think was cheating for the longest time, and didn't realize that even being too emotional and attached to a friend counts as EA territory). My practically nonexistent boundaries and lack of awareness of what constituted a healthy interaction with anyone, no matter what type of relationship I had with them, made it something that was not nearly as difficult as it should have been.  That is my fault, and totally on me. I am a broken person who has some serious gaps in my foundation, and that sadly affected and damaged her. I'm making the repairs to bring the structure of me up to code, but I'm well aware that it's something that never should have been a problem in the first place.
> 
> ...


Don't ever apologise for posting what in essence is a letter of regret and remorse. I'm guessing your GF doesn't visit TAM?

Would be nice for her to see your honesty displayed here.

A little bit of 'letter to the betrayed' which I like to read....they give me hope.

I hope she gives you a chance if you deserve it....only you know if you are now worth it, but just being here without it being necessary, be it your choice says a lot.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

LRgirl said:


> Don't ever apologise for posting what in essence is a letter of regret and remorse. I'm guessing your GF doesn't visit TAM?
> 
> Would be nice for her to see your honesty displayed here.
> 
> ...


Thank you, LRgirl.  I've actually posted to TAM with GF sitting next to me, and she has read a few posts with me, but she doesn't come here herself. She says she doesn't have time, but she knows my user name here if she ever wants to read anything. I've told her about some of the discussions in bits and pieces and she was happy to hear about what I said.

Thank you very much.  That's very kind of you. I will keep working on myself and the interaction with GF and leave the decision of whether or not I deserve another chance up to her. I'll endeavor to be someone who is worthy of her love and trust, and I realize now that that's an every moment, every day thing.


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

soulpotato said:


> Thank you, LRgirl.  I've actually posted to TAM with GF sitting next to me, and she has read a few posts with me, but she doesn't come here herself. She says she doesn't have time, but she knows my user name here if she ever wants to read anything. I've told her about some of the discussions in bits and pieces and she was happy to hear about what I said.
> 
> Thank you very much.  That's very kind of you. I will keep working on myself and the interaction with GF and leave the decision of whether or not I deserve another chance up to her. I'll endeavor to be someone who is worthy of her love and trust, and I realize now that that's an every moment, every day thing.


By Nature i am a nosy ******, and i like to know the ins and outs of a cats ar$e! If your GF is even remotely like me, then she'll find her way here to check on what you are posting.

It makes complete sense that she would pop in now and again. Just keep being honest and open and I'm certain you can turn this around.


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