# Thinking of giving up



## husky99 (Nov 4, 2011)

I've never talked to anyone about my marriage problems, so this is a first for me...

I'm 37 years old, and I met my wife 9 years ago (married for 7). Initially, I found her very attractive, and she was very caring and loyal. She wanted to spend all of her time with me, and that made me feel very secure and happy to have someone that loved me and that was so devoted to me. 

After several months, she started telling me about how she had issues with each of my friends. Then, any time I would take time to see a friend without her (which was extremely rare), she would resent that my friends are more important than her because I chose to spend time with them INSTEAD of her. Eventually, she wouldn't allow me to see anyone ever because of this, and I have since lost every single one of my friends. She also forbids me from talking to my siblings because she feels they were rude to her when they were actually not at all. I'm also not allowed to see my parents without her there anymore, and I can't call them without her getting extremely upset (even though she talks to them occassionally, and she is the point of contact for any communication or visits).

At this point, I am obligated to spend literally every second with my wife unless I am at work. I am not even allowed to spend time by myself doing anything... unless it's a short trip to the store for something. I have also turned down promotions at work that I wanted because she doesn't want me to work in a different building (I believe this is because these promotions would have had me working near old friends).

She does not let me look at our finances or taxes even though I have proven to do a much better job at this than her in the past. She has even cost us thousands of dollars missing critical deadlines... mistakes for which she won't even blink an eye. 

I understand that many people reading this will say that this is all my fault for letting this happen... that I shouldn't have resentment because this was all my doing. I tell myself this every day, but for some reason, I haven't had the balls to leave her despite being extremely unhappy. I guess my worries are summed up as being scared to be alone (since I no longer have any friends or family), financial disaster getting through the divorce, and worrying that I'll realize I've made a mistake after I've ended the relationship (realizing that I can't live without her, or that it hurts me too much realizing that someone else will be with her).

Is the grass greener on the other side for me, or should I try to be happy with her in control, and just go with the flow? FYI, I've suggested counseling many times but she thinks it's a crock and won't go. She blames any fight we have on me not being "loving"... in fact I spend all of my time with her trying to act as friendly and loving as possible so as not to upset her.

A couple more intersting notes... she had a very damaging relationship with her mom. Her mom was abusive, especially emotionally. She also had a failed marriage. I think that both of these experiences scarred her to the point where she now is totaly untrusting and insecure. I feel sorry for her past, but I resent that I have to suffer because of it.

Sorry for the long rant... this has all been pent up for a long time. Should I stay or should I go? I would love to hear anyone's take on this, and ANY point of view is appreciated!!!


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

She sounds like a control freak, has abandonment issues and is emotionally abusive. All which can be fixed and reversed IF she wants the help. I know because I was similar...but no more. After 4 months of therapy, I am worlds better. 

My husband was fed up and left at the end of June. After seeing my progress and me being genuine in my change, he moved home at the end of September and it's been so much better.


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## Mindful Coach (Sep 15, 2011)

How would you feel if you left today? Would you feel like you did everything possible to save your marriage? 

Or, what if you put your foot down, started to set boundaries - come hell or high water - insist on counseling and go for broke?

If it didn't work then, would you still question if you should leave or not, or would you know that you did everything possible, it didn't work and now it's time to go?

You've basically been in this marriage as a coward, don't leave as a coward.


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## husky99 (Nov 4, 2011)

Mindful Coach said:


> How would you feel if you left today? Would you feel like you did everything possible to save your marriage?
> 
> Or, what if you put your foot down, started to set boundaries - come hell or high water - insist on counseling and go for broke?
> 
> ...


I feel that I have done everything to save the marriage. I've brought up these issues many times... and this just results in her yelling at me, and telling me that I'm just trying to start a fight. She will never respond to anything even when I approach this very calm and respecfully. I've also insisted on counceling and she absolutely will not go. She has known psychologists in the past, and is convinced that people in that profession are more screwed up than anyone... so they are a waste of time.

I agree - I have lived like a coward by being more concerned with her happiness than my own. I feel like the only cowardly option now is to stay in the marriage... I just can't take the plunge and leave! I just need to convince myself that I'll be okay.



that_girl said:


> She sounds like a control freak, has abandonment issues and is emotionally abusive. All which can be fixed and reversed IF she wants the help. I know because I was similar...but no more. After 4 months of therapy, I am worlds better.
> 
> My husband was fed up and left at the end of June. After seeing my progress and me being genuine in my change, he moved home at the end of September and it's been so much better.


You're right... she is absolutely a control freak (I've said this to her before, but she says that she just likes to be "involved" - ha!). She absolutely, positively does not want help - this will not happen.

I think your husband is a very lucky man, that you cared enough about him enough to change. I feel like if she cared like you did, she would at least address my concerns... but she will refuse to even talk about it.


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## Mr_brown (Oct 17, 2011)

Man up and hold on to your N.U.T.s. It has done wonders for me and my relationship with my wife. It's been almost a month now and I have made a couple of minor changes. Stop arguing with her once you move out of the discussion phase and into the argument phase just stop, don't allow yourself to argue with her. Get some buddies, some good friends through a church group our something like that. Do things for yourself. Work out play sports or something. Develop your nuts and don't let her step on them. You should have discussions. But don't argue. Don't let her have her way if it is one of your nuts. She eventually will gain respect for you. She sees you as a week push over and capitalizes on it!

Check out the books Hold onto your nuts and No more mr nice guy!!!


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Husky, welcome to the TAM forum. I'm so sorry you ended up with a W just like my exW. I agree with ThatGirl that the behavior you describe is verbally abusive, extremely controling, and exhibits a strong fear of abandonment. In addition, you are describing black-white thinking, a lack of impulse control, and an "I'm a poor victim" mentality. Significantly, all of these behaviors are classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW has.

Whether those traits are so severe as to satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having full-blown BPD is a determination that only a professional can make. On the other hand, there is nothing subtle about traits such as verbal abuse, constant blamining, and black-white thinking. Hence, given your 9 year history with her, it should be easy for you to spot the red flags for such traits. I therefore suggest that you read more about the nine BPD traits.


husky99 said:


> Initially, I found her very attractive, and she was very caring and loyal. She wanted to spend all of her time with me, and that made me feel very secure and happy to have someone that loved me and that was so devoted to me.


High-functioning BPDers -- as your W may be -- are very VERY easy to fall in love with. One reason is that, because they have a fragile sense of who they really are, they emulate all of the best aspects of a person's personality when they become infatuated with him. This process -- called "mirroring" -- is so nearly perfect that the two of you will both be convinced you've met your "soul mate." During this honeymoon period, she will not only act like you but also like nearly all of your friends and all the activities you enjoy. Sadly, this period will quickly end as soon as the infatuation evaporates -- usually within 3 to 6 months.


> After several months, she started telling me about how she had issues with each of my friends.


Like I said, the controlling nature and other BPD traits will surface when the honeymoon period ends. You did not see the traits for several months only because her infatuation over you convinced her that you were her perfect savior. That illusion held her two great fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- at bay. Within a few months, however, those fears return and it becomes extremely easy for you to trigger both of them. 

If your W is a BPDer (i.e., has strong traits), she has carried an enormous amount of hurt and anger inside her since childhood. You therefore do not have to do anything to CREATE the anger. Instead, you only have to say or do some minor thing to TRIGGER the anger that is always there. This is why, when you glance at another woman for a half-second instead of a third of a second, you W may flip from adoring you to hating you -- in only ten seconds.


> I have since lost every single one of my friends. She also forbids me from talking to my siblings because she feels they were rude to her when they were actually not at all. I'm also not allowed to see my parents without her there anymore.


Due to the BPDer's extreme fear of abandonment, she will try to control every aspect of a loved one's life. She also will often be extremely jealous of any time you spend with other people. On top of that, she will find it much easier to control you if you don't have any friends or family members to support you. That is, she doesn't want anyone taking your side and saying "That's the most ridiculous excuse I've ever heard." Like your W, my exW was extremely controlling and tried to isolate me from all friends and family. To "explain" why she would not visit my family members, she would claim that they treated her rudely -- just as your W is claiming.


> I haven't had the balls to leave her despite being extremely unhappy.


Given the length of time you've stayed in your toxic marriage, you almost certainly are an extreme caregiver like me. For us caregivers, our desire to be needed (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be loved (for the men we already are). Because of our "codependent" traits, we find the idea of walking away from a sick loved one to be anathema. It goes against our family values, our morality, our religion -- indeed, against every fiber of our being. Moreover, even if you leave your W, you are at risk of running right into the arms of another woman just like her. Because we caregivers are "fixers," we will walk right past all the emotionally available women (too BORING) and keep walking until we find an unstable woman who desperately needs us. Only when we are desperately needed do we feel truly loved. Sadly, we mistake "being needed" for "being loved."


> I've suggested counseling many times but she thinks it's a crock and won't go.


If your W is a BPDer, it likely won't matter if she goes to therapy or not. Although there are excellent treatment programs all over the country, BPDers are loath to let go of the false self image that they are victims, always victims. Having a weak, fragile ego, that false self image of being "the victim" is often the only shred of a self image she has to hold on to. BPDers therefore usually have a death grip on it. 

Yet, to improve and heal, it is essential for a BPDer to step forward and start taking responsibility for her own actions (as ThatGirl has done). Absent that, substantial improvement is impossible. This is why therapist Shari Schreiber says you have a better chance flying to the moon strapped to a banana than ever seeing a BPDer stay in therapy long enough to make a real difference. I would be surprised if 1 in 100 BPDers have the self awareness and ego strength to accomplish that. 

Over the past five years, I've communicated with nearly a hundred self-aware BPDers online but they are so rare that I've never knowingly met one in my private life. Moreover, even when you get a BPDer to stay in therapy by insisting on it, she likely will just play mind games with the therapist. That is what my exW did for 15 years of weekly visits to six different psychologists -- at enormous expense to me. She only got worse, eventually having me arrested and thrown into jail on a bogus charge of "brutalizing" her. Such false arrests are very common when men are married to BPDer wives.


> She blames any fight we have on me not being "loving"...


For a BPDer to be willing to live with you, you MUST play one of two roles -- both of which are designed to "validate" her false self image of being "the victim." If your W is a BPDer, you played the first role -- being "the savior" -- during the infatuation period. As savior, you were validating her status as "the victim" because anyone in need of being saved must be a victim. Yet, as soon as the infatuation evaporates, the only role that will validate that false self image is for you to become "the predator," i.e., the cause of every misfortune to befall her. You therefore will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. 

Moreover, it gets worse as the years go by. The BPDer becomes increasingly resentful about your failure to make her happy or fix her. This is why BPDers typically walk out on caregivers like us after about 12-15 years. In my case, it took 15 years, at which point my exW abandoned me. By "abandoned me," I mean she had me arrested so she could get a restraining order keeping me out of my own home for the 18 months it takes to get a divorce in this state.


> I've brought up these issues many times... and this just results in her yelling at me, and telling me that I'm just trying to start a fight. She will never respond to anything even when I approach this very calm and respectfully.


If your W is a BPDer, being in a calm and respectful mood achieves very little when you are wanting to discuss important or sensitive issues. Even catching her when she is in a calm and seemingly receptive mood usually doesn't work at all. The problem is that, when you raise a sensitive matter -- and with a BPDer nearly EVERY issue is sensitive -- you have only ten seconds before her anger is triggered and released. Discussing an important matter in ten seconds, of course, is impossible. Moreover, even on those rare occasions when she appears to be compromising on an issue, she likely will take it back at week later (claiming you somehow forced her into that concession). Generally, untreated BPDers are only interested in creating drama, not finding solutions or compromises.


> She had a very damaging relationship with her mom. Her mom was abusive, especially emotionally. She also had a failed marriage.


Most abused children do not develop full-blown BPD. Even so, studies show that abandonment or abuse in childhood GREATLY raises the risk of a child developing full blown BPD. This is why, in a recent study of nearly 35,000 American adults, 70% of the BPDers reported having been abused or abandoned in childhood.


> Should I stay or should I go?


Because there are no children to consider, I would advise you to leave your W if you conclude that she has many strong BPD traits and refuses therapy. More specifically, I suggest you read about the nine BPD traits and, if they sound familiar, you confirm your suspicions by seeing a clinical psychologist -- on your own without her present -- for at least a visit or two. 

If your W has strong BPD traits and refuses to work hard for several years in therapy, the toxic marriage is harming BOTH of you. The harm to you is obvious. The harm to her is your enabling behavior, which is destroying her only chance of being forced to confront her issues. That is, your willingness to always walk on eggshells is allowing her to go through life behaving like a four year old throwing hissy fits -- never having to face the logical consequences of her own abusive actions.

If this discussion rings a bell, Husky, I would suggest you get a copy of the best selling BPD book targeted to the nonBPD spouses. It is called _Stop Walking on Eggshells. _Another good book, released five months ago by the same author, is _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder. _Meanwhile, an easy place to start reading is my discussion of BPD traits in Blacksmith's thread. My three posts there begin at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-complicated-marriage-dynamic.html#post358403. Please start taking better care of _yourself,_ Caregiver.


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## 2yearsince (Sep 20, 2011)

Does my wife have a twin? No really it sounds alot like my wife. It's been 17 years though she doesnt forbid me, just makes life hard if I dont agree. I now see how many friends I could have had if she didnt find issues and how much time I lost with family. I have alot of resent for all that plus other issues. Yes you let it happen but I understand, letting it happen seemed like the easier route at the time. It won't stop though unless you do something. Same thing too with her family, no relationship (that one is more their failut) and I feel bad for her too. Anyway take a stand for your own sake, tell her how you feel and that you have reached your breaking point and that's it. I unfortunately went way past my breaking point to the point I dont even love my wife anymore (for some time really). I was away and realized all these things and in not so many words said I was thinking we were done. Well she made alot of changes she didnt do before, not sure if it's to little to late for me but maybe not for you. If they know you are serious and stand up it might make a change.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I don't know if I would have addressed it if my husband didn't sit me down that night and just say, "I'm moving out. I signed the lease today and I'm leaving in one hour."

That was a slap in the face. We talked for that hour and got some information of why he was leaving...and then it was up to me.

So...just fyi. Find the balls to just do it.


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## misticli (Oct 28, 2011)

Mr_brown said:


> Man up and hold on to your N.U.T.s. It has done wonders for me and my relationship with my wife. It's been almost a month now and I have made a couple of minor changes. Stop arguing with her once you move out of the discussion phase and into the argument phase just stop, don't allow yourself to argue with her. Get some buddies, some good friends through a church group our something like that. Do things for yourself. Work out play sports or something. Develop your nuts and don't let her step on them. You should have discussions. But don't argue. *Don't let her have her way if it is one of your nuts. She eventually will gain respect for you.* She sees you as a week push over and capitalizes on it!
> 
> Check out the books Hold onto your nuts and No more mr nice guy!!!


Agreed, sometimes when you really want something you need to be willing to let it go. If you man up and start seeing your friends and visiting your family without her, she will either get a crash back to reality or she will leave. If she loved you enough it would shock her into changing, it not then you will move on with you life and find someone else who can make you happy. 

I know it rips your heart out, but you cannot control a jealous control freak other than by letting them know they cannot control you.


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## husky99 (Nov 4, 2011)

Uptown said:


> Husky, welcome to the TAM forum. I'm so sorry you ended up with a W just like my exW. I agree with ThatGirl that the behavior you describe is verbally abusive, extremely controling, and exhibits a strong fear of abandonment. In addition, you are describing black-white thinking, a lack of impulse control, and an "I'm a poor victim" mentality. Significantly, all of these behaviors are classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW has.
> 
> Whether those traits are so severe as to satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having full-blown BPD is a determination that only a professional can make. On the other hand, there is nothing subtle about traits such as verbal abuse, constant blamining, and black-white thinking. Hence, given your 9 year history with her, it should be easy for you to spot the red flags for such traits. I therefore suggest that you read more about the nine BPD traits.High-functioning BPDers -- as your W may be -- are very VERY easy to fall in love with. One reason is that, because they have a fragile sense of who they really are, they emulate all of the best aspects of a person's personality when they become infatuated with him. This process -- called "mirroring" -- is so nearly perfect that the two of you will both be convinced you've met your "soul mate." During this honeymoon period, she will not only act like you but also like nearly all of your friends and all the activities you enjoy. Sadly, this period will quickly end as soon as the infatuation evaporates -- usually within 3 to 6 months.Like I said, the controlling nature and other BPD traits will surface when the honeymoon period ends. You did not see the traits for several months only because her infatuation over you convinced her that you were her perfect savior. That illusion held her two great fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- at bay. Within a few months, however, those fears return and it becomes extremely easy for you to trigger both of them.
> 
> ...


Thanks Uptown! You've given me some extremely valuable and enlightening information. I'm going to read what you've suggested, then hopefully once I'm armed with the right information, I'll man up and take the leap that I know I need to take. I've never heard of BPD, but it fit's like a glove for her. Once I can put an end to this situation, I'm going to do everything in my power not to repeat this mistake... this is one of the worst decisions I could have possibly made in my life!!!


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