# How does someone "woman up"?



## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Having read such a lot about the guys "manning up", "becoming the Alpha" and whatnot, I am interested to hear what the guys (and laydeez) here think about the female equivalent.

I have read various bits here and briefly referenced on MMSL - which said females basically need to do the same - and show interest in other guys (paraphrased but you get the gist!)

I have been on a journey of self-improvement for quite a while now. I have taken a long hard look at myself and working on various areas of my life. Some changes were relatively simple (took up gym and other sports) but others, such as working on ingrained habits, are a work-in-progress. Things such as not replying, "I'm okay" when asked if everything is all right, and saying what is on my mind. I've always been introverted and very shy and quiet so opening up is difficult. It is something I have become better at - faking confidence I have practiced by chatting to other parents at school about the kids, opening up conversations by commenting on cute things about the kids, that sort of thing. Chatting to the shop assistant when picking up groceries.

I have also worked on becoming less "nice." I have stopped overextending myself and started saying "no" when I am taking on too much. I have stopped feeling I have to apologise for other people or offer explanations if I don't want something.

Hubz describes me as "nice", a nice girl. I think this is a compliment, and to the most part I think I will always be like that in the way that he means it well and that he is describing positive qualities.

I would be very interested to hear what people think about "womaning up"  What kinds of things would people be offering as advice to a woman looking to woman up? I'm thinking the whole spectrum a la the advice offered to guys here so throw in anything you think personally or generally.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Hummm, difficult one - the last thing I want is to become some A1 b*tch because I'm just not (no really)

For me with my ex it was about not hiding my intelligence and pretending I didn't have anything to say when he was talking out of his ass about something. I will talk to pretty much anyone about anything so being introverted isn't an issue, but it's key not to lay yourself out there. I used to meet people and really open up - big mistake, be careful about who you share with

And you can be assertive without hurting people's feelings as long as you communicate why you've taken a particular stance on something. Don't be afraid to say 'no'

Lastly, wear high heels


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

tobio said:


> I have read various bits here and briefly referenced on MMSL - which said females basically need to do the same - *and show interest in other guys *(paraphrased but you get the gist!)


That's shet testing behaviour!


No way!

The intent is not to show interest in other women. That just creates jealousy and is to be avoided.

Now gaining the interest of other women because the guy has made himself attractive is a totally different matter. The guy is making himself more attractive for his own self-esteem and self-respect. The knock on to that may be that re regains his wife’s attraction and desire for him and for sure, other women may too be attracted to him.


Tobio, if that’s the way you are thinking, then if even at the subconscious level you are showing interest in other guys it sure as heck explains why your H responded like he did in the pub. Of course you will see his anger. He responded out of jealousy, the thought of losing you because of the way you were behaving. You should know that you have got it so very wrong.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

AFEH said:


> That's shet testing behaviour!
> 
> 
> No way!
> ...


No Bob - I was saying that that is what Athol said in his blog. Not that that is what I do! If you knew me IRL you would see that, but obviously you don't so you'll just have to take my word for it! Hubz knows how shy I am and he knows I am not like that.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

tobio said:


> No Bob - I was saying that that is what Athol said in his blog. Not that that is what I do! If you knew me IRL you would see that, but obviously you don't so you'll just have to take my word for it! Hubz knows how shy I am and he knows I am not like that.


Can you copy and paste what you read about it. It's not that I doubt your word, I would like to see what Athol says about it.

thanks


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Tobio you are looking for solutions, but what are the problems you want to solve?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Tobio,
" Woman Up " is the exact , same principle as the Alpha concept.
My suggestion to you is to go and read the 
" Becoming the Alpha Thread " again.
If possible, read ONLY the posts by the two moderators and you will get the concept.
As I have said throughout the thread,
It is a gender neutral concept.

Firstly, you must understand what about yourself you need to change, and why.

Secondly, know that its not about your husband or how he treats you, but its about making yourself _the best_ you.

Finally, my personal mantra is ,
_Never accept disrespect_.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

AFEH said:


> Can you copy and paste what you read about it. It's not that I doubt your word, I would like to see what Athol says about it.
> 
> thanks


Bob

Here and scroll down to the bottom. Puts it in a little more context from what I was saying.

Will post a bit later about what the problems are.

And also thanks CM, I will go and read it again later.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

tobio said:


> Bob
> 
> Here and scroll down to the bottom. Puts it in a little more context from what I was saying.
> 
> ...


The only reference I found from Athol on your link is this one ….

_Athol Kay says: 
October 28, 2012 at 8:41 pm 
@Wendy another dude hitting on your girl and her looking like she is enjoying the interaction fills men with utter stomach churning dread. I keep saying “mild disloyalty” because the male reaction is so powerful._

Which appears to me to be the “exact opposite” of your interpretation (make your partner jealous) or the 3rd party interpretation which you are referencing.

Maybe if you’d have started your post off in a positive and optimistic way instead of a negative and criticising way you’d have a really different attitude to it all.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

AFEH said:


> The only reference I found from Athol on your link is this one ….
> 
> _Athol Kay says:
> October 28, 2012 at 8:41 pm
> ...


This was the part I meant... At the bottom of his blog post.

*Not for nothing, but the men that find MMSL on their own are always highly motivated to make change because they are deeply worried about how their relationship is going. Men simply don’t respond to “I’m unhappy”, “I’m unhaaaaaaaappy!” or “You suck! That’s why I’m so unhappy!” They do very much respond to wives dressing up nice and spending time with other men though.

I’m not saying it’s polite to do it, I’m just saying what works.*

And I have to take issue with you saying my post started off "negative and criticising" - because it simply isn't, if you are referencing my original post. If you read through, I was explaining how I have taken positive action to change things I don't like about myself. Not negative and criticising, more positive change and outlook.


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

tobio said:


> This was the part I meant... At the bottom of his blog post.
> 
> *Not for nothing, but the men that find MMSL on their own are always highly motivated to make change because they are deeply worried about how their relationship is going. Men simply don’t respond to “I’m unhappy”, “I’m unhaaaaaaaappy!” or “You suck! That’s why I’m so unhappy!” They do very much respond to wives dressing up nice and spending time with other men though.
> 
> ...


If the problem is that the husband is ignoring you sexually, then exhibiting "mild disloyalty" may be part of the solution. Sex is how men and women become emotionally bonded to each other such that they don't want sex with anyone else. So, when one partner gives the appearance of not being fully "bonded", it triggers sexual desire in the other one. Likewise if you behave like you are completely and totally attached to your spouse, there is no need to have sex with you. It won't get them aroused at all. I don't believe this is gender specific in any way.

Just keep in mind the "mild disloyalty" is very powerful stuff, only to be used with extreme care. If you overdo it, giving the impression that you might actually go outside the marriage, then the other person might just clam up and get ready to pull the ripcord on the whole relationship.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

tobio said:


> This was the part I meant... At the bottom of his blog post.
> 
> Not for nothing, but the men that find MMSL on their own are always highly motivated to make change because they are deeply worried about how their relationship is going. Men simply don’t respond to “I’m unhappy”, “I’m unhaaaaaaaappy!” or “You suck! That’s why I’m so unhappy!” _They do very much respond to wives dressing up nice and spending time with other men though.
> 
> ...


Are you sure you've problems with asserting yourself?


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

AFEH said:


> Are you sure you've problems with asserting yourself?


Ha! I can't tell your tone but I'll take it as it reads... Yep. I have alwats been quite timid and very conflict-avoidant in an unhealthy way. That is something I have also been working on with some success - once I realised me and my voice is just as good as anyone else's.

Speaking up for myself generally is a real achievement. Feels very good whether it achieves anything or not. Small steps all add up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

OP, I would say it is developing good self-esteem, self respect and creating healthy boundaries. It's about living authentically and treating others with the same level of healthy respect with which we treat ourselves. It's about being strong enough to stand alone, but also being strong enough to allow ourselves to be vulnerable with another human being. It's about continuing to grow and allowing others the space to do the same.

I'm sure I'll think of other things, but that's a good start!


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

east2west said:


> If the problem is that the husband is ignoring you sexually, then exhibiting "mild disloyalty" may be part of the solution. Sex is how men and women become emotionally bonded to each other such that they don't want sex with anyone else. So, when one partner gives the appearance of not being fully "bonded", it triggers sexual desire in the other one. Likewise if you behave like you are completely and totally attached to your spouse, there is no need to have sex with you. It won't get them aroused at all. I don't believe this is gender specific in any way.
> 
> Just keep in mind the "mild disloyalty" is very powerful stuff, only to be used with extreme care. If you overdo it, giving the impression that you might actually go outside the marriage, then the other person might just clam up and get ready to pull the ripcord on the whole relationship.


See, I get what you are saying, but I'm not sure I understand how that actually happens in practice. I can't see where one draws the line between what is okay and not okay. Is it being flirtatious? Showing to your spouse that you are attracted to someone else but not actually doing anything that enters the realm of EA/PA?


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

tobio said:


> See, I get what you are saying, but I'm not sure I understand how that actually happens in practice. I can't see where one draws the line between what is okay and not okay. Is it being flirtatious? Showing to your spouse that you are attracted to someone else but not actually doing anything that enters the realm of EA/PA?


I don't believe that it means flirting with others nor, heaven forbid, doing anything that borders on the realms of an EA/PA. I believe that it means making the very best of ourselves, from the inside out, and maintaining an attractive edge that our spouses will instinctively know others are likely to find attractive, too.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

tobio said:


> I would be very interested to hear what people think about "womaning up"  What kinds of things would people be offering as advice to a woman looking to woman up? I'm thinking the whole spectrum a la the advice offered to guys here so throw in anything you think personally or generally.


I'm not real sure why you would ask this in the men's forum but I would humbly hope that a woman looking to "woman up" would find herself resolving to choose relationship over separateness and choose helping her marriage over helping herself.


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

tobio said:


> See, I get what you are saying, but I'm not sure I understand how that actually happens in practice. I can't see where one draws the line between what is okay and not okay. Is it being flirtatious? Showing to your spouse that you are attracted to someone else but not actually doing anything that enters the realm of EA/PA?


I'm not really an expert in this, I don't do it myself as I don't have any need to. But I think a good place to start is leaving the house looking nice, and without any explanation. Light flirting and drawing the attention of other men is where it should stop. Definitely should not progress to anything resembling an EA, repeatedly flirting with the same person over time for example.


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## artdeco63 (Dec 11, 2012)

Put your arms around your partner's neck, give a great kiss, and with out too many details, make an appointment for "whatever you want"..this is something I never get without hemming and hawing or garlic breath!


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

Tobio....

I THINK it's really about being the best YOU that you can be. Sounds hokey... but that is what it is. Take care of yourself, which is sounds like you are. Be independent, able to do things for yourself but without feeling wussy about asking for help if you need it (plus he gets to feel like a big strong man for helping his woman).... look good, feel good, be proud of yourself and your strengths, work on your weaknesses... 

And you know... the bottom line is that YOU will improve yourself, your outlook and your life. Whether it turns him on or not is another story.... but you will be better off either way for having taken stock and taken care of yourself! 

Good luck... sounds like you are getting there.

PS... it is not about other men, or trying to make H jealous... it's all about you loving yourself and having confidence!


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Satya said:


> I learned to stop saying sorry and please all the time and it has vastly increased the respect I get and facilitates action by others. I'm not a jerk about it, I just don't drizzle my requests in pleasantries when it isn't necessary.


Yep, similar to me definitely.



east2west said:


> I'm not really an expert in this, I don't do it myself as I don't have any need to. But I think a good place to start is leaving the house looking nice, and without any explanation. Light flirting and drawing the attention of other men is where it should stop. Definitely should not progress to anything resembling an EA, repeatedly flirting with the same person over time for example.


I get you. Not saying I'm going to do it but it certainly is interesting as an idea.



artdeco63 said:


> Put your arms around your partner's neck, give a great kiss, and with out too many details, make an appointment for "whatever you want"..this is something I never get without hemming and hawing or garlic breath!


Lol! But is that "womaning up"?



SunnyT said:


> Tobio....
> 
> I THINK it's really about being the best YOU that you can be. Sounds hokey... but that is what it is. Take care of yourself, which is sounds like you are. Be independent, able to do things for yourself but without feeling wussy about asking for help if you need it (plus he gets to feel like a big strong man for helping his woman).... look good, feel good, be proud of yourself and your strengths, work on your weaknesses...
> 
> ...


Good input, thanks!


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> I'm not real sure why you would ask this in the men's forum but I would humbly hope that a woman looking to "woman up" would find herself resolving to choose relationship over separateness *and choose helping her marriage over helping herself.*


I asked here because I was thinking if there are guys here who are proponents of ManUp  and who can explain it in biological terms of attraction and the psychology behind certain behaviours, then these same people may be able to offer the same kind of advice but for women.

That last part - can I take it that you do not advocate the advice given on here about men bettering themselves in and of themself? Maybe my interpretation is wrong, but that reads like you don't agree with the advice bandied round here about men improving themselves as in upping the alpha, manning up and their marriages benefitting as a side-effect? Is it that you believe that men should do it to directly benefit their marriage? Or do you believe the rules are different for women? If so, why?


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

tobio said:


> I asked here because I was thinking if there are guys here who are proponents of ManUp  and who can explain it in biological terms of attraction and the psychology behind certain behaviours, then these same people may be able to offer the same kind of advice but for women.
> 
> That last part - can I take it that you do not advocate the advice given on here about men bettering themselves in and of themself? Maybe my interpretation is wrong, but that reads like you don't agree with the advice bandied round here about men improving themselves as in upping the alpha, manning up and their marriages benefitting as a side-effect? Is it that you believe that men should do it to directly benefit their marriage? Or do you believe the rules are different for women? If so, why?



I think this question was asked, OP, because men are advised to not take advice from women when it comes to manning up. The idea being that it takes another man to advise a man how to be a man. One would expect this to be similar with 'womaning up."


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

tobio said:


> Is it that you believe that men should do it to directly benefit their marriage? Or do you believe the rules are different for women? If so, why?


tobio,

Thanks very much for this question and yes, I wouldn't even bother to contribute if I didn't think that the men here are all trying to improve themselves for the primary purpose of being better husbands and fathers through their becoming better men. True, I hold women to a lesser standard because I think women are misled and suffer confusion over what is their most valuable priority to hold over the long term. I see this confusion on women's part as a crisis in male leadership. I would ask that men be more concerned about communicating a vision of relationship and setting good examples for all to see rather than who has to wash the dishes and the unfairness of divorce court. I see male passivity and absence of commitment/involvement as the major threat to our families today. Women will do what they feel they have to but under the banner of self improvement, I would ask them to be personally committed to relationship even without a good example from their men.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> tobio,
> 
> Thanks very much for this question and yes, I wouldn't even bother to contribute if I didn't think that the men here are trying to improve themselves for the primary purpose of being better husbands and fathers through their becoming better men. However, I do hold women to a lesser standard because I think they are misled and suffer some confusion over what is most valuable over the long term. I see this confusion on the part of women as a crisis in male leadership and I think men should be more concerned about providing vision and setting good examples than who has to wash the dishes.


Can you expand on that, TYH? I'm sure you don't mean that to be as patronizing as it sounds...


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Cosmos said:


> Can you expand on that, TYH? I'm sure you don't mean that to be as patronizing as it sounds...


I apologize, I don't mean to sound patronizing but someone has to believe in the value of relationship over separateness and I put that squarely on the shoulders of men, regardless of the attitudes of women. There is no intent here to communicate a sense of superiority. I feel it is men's responsibility to create families and men's responsibility to stay with those families, and men's responsibility to support those families, no matter what women may think, say or do. It is human nature to want to have things for yourself and have things your way but someone has to give and continue to give more if any of this is going to work and I lay that again on the shoulders of men. If you're feeling left out, there is no way that anything a man could do would be a difficult as bearing and birthing children so women surely have the hardest job there is.

I feel that women are misled into thinking that committing themselves to the pursuit and enjoyment of material wealth is a better use of their time than pursuing relationships and spending time in personal relationships. My heart goes out to the older single women who hold most of the management jobs here where I work while the men that work for them run around looking after their (the men's) kids. We all make our choices and we accept the consequences of our choices, but I don't think anyone lays on their death bed thinking "I wish I spent more time in the office".

All I'm saying is that if more men could find their way to be better examples of the value of relationship rather than blaming women for why they (the men) don't want to honor a relationship, that women would more opportunity to be pulled along with them into what I consider to be a more satisfying way of life, i.e. having fun with each other rather than working all the time.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Thank your TYH. I agree with your post.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> I apologize, I don't mean to sound patronizing but someone has to believe in the value of relationship over separateness and I put that squarely on the shoulders of men, regardless of the attitudes of women. There is no intent here to communicate a sense of superiority. I feel it is men's responsibility to create families and men's responsibility to stay with those families, and men's responsibility to support those families, no matter what women may think, say or do. It is human nature to want to have things for yourself and have things your way but someone has to give and continue to give more if any of this is going to work and I lay that again on the shoulders of men. If you're feeling left out, there is no way that anything a man could do would be a difficult as bearing and birthing children so women surely have the hardest job there is.
> 
> I feel that women are misled into thinking that committing themselves to the pursuit and enjoyment of material wealth is a better use of their time than pursuing relationships and spending time in personal relationships. My heart goes out to the older single women who hold most of the management jobs here where I work while the men that work for them run around looking after their (the men's) kids. We all make our choices and we accept the consequences of our choices, but I don't think anyone lays on their death bed thinking "I wish I spent more time in the office".
> 
> All I'm saying is that if more men could find their way to be better examples of the value of relationship rather than blaming women for why they (the men) don't want to honor a relationship, that women would more opportunity to be pulled along with them into what I consider to be a more satisfying way of life, i.e. having fun with each other rather than working all the time.


Ah that makes things clearer.

Well for me personally, I feel I am the leader in different ways in my marriage. I'm not saying I am the one who leads, if you see what I mean, but I would say that in particular areas I am the one who makes thing go forward. I remember saying ages ago that I'm the director and he's like the manager - I work out what needs doing and how to do it, and he does it. That is with a lot of practical stuff. 

I sort out finances and make plans in that area. I am the one that thinks ahead about what we want and how we can achieve that and makes those plans.

I realise that a lot of that is what is recommended for men to be doing, ie Captain and First Officer type-stuff. We are quite the reverse. It is simply that I am better at planning the stuff that I plan. Or that he has no interest in it. Do I lose respect for him because of that? Well, I do wish he would take more of an active interest and be on board with longer-term plans. But it makes sense to me for me to do the stuff I am good at, and for him to do the stuff he is good at. The balance works for me, and for him I think.

I don't know if that's slightly off-topic but is interesting to think about...


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

tobio said:


> Well, I do wish he would take more of an active interest and be on board with longer-term plans.


Yes, indeed. Very understandable. My humble counsel to a you looking to "woman up" would be to nicely, lovingly, respectfully and above all firmly and directly put the areas where you would like him to be more active smack dab right into his lap. Encourage him and support him but don't let him get away with not doing it. In my humble opinion, male passivity is the modern woman's biggest relationship problem and I would ask you use your considerable abilities to get your men active and engaged.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> OP, I would say it is developing good self-esteem, self respect and creating healthy boundaries. It's about living authentically and treating others with the same level of healthy respect with which we treat ourselves. It's about being strong enough to stand alone, but also being strong enough to allow ourselves to be vulnerable with another human being. It's about continuing to grow and allowing others the space to do the same.
> 
> I'm sure I'll think of other things, but that's a good start!


I haven't read every comment on here, but its exactly what I was thinking - the "upping" process is very much similar for women as it is men, however its the external factors that I think are largely different.

This is a generalization, but I think for men part of the process is distinguishing themselves from, and being able to lead, the competition to some degree or in some way (ie not every facet), more so just being able to lead their own lives. For women I don't believe competition enters the equation, however I think the external factors for women are being able to nurture others, and that means needing to nurture herself first. Yeah, total over-simplification, men lead women nurture... of course this equation has to be completely tailored to the individual - I don't think its about lower standards at all but possibly different standards, because men and women are different.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

I think I sort of understand what Lon is getting at. Men and women do have differences. 

So I think of it like this; Throughout your life, you’ve been watching. There are those character traits you aspire to, and those you don’t. A general theme in a male mind is sort of a “warrior’s code” of toughness. Men generally want to be that guy. They do not want to be the sniveling guy crying in the corner. “Manning up” is usually the call sign that you need to remind yourself of who you want to see in the mirror.

I can’t tell you what a woman would want to see in the mirror _(I'm a dude, so I'm biased to big knockers and loose morals ). _But I doubt it’d match ‘manly traits’.... Part of the problem is the vastly different mixed messages women have gotten over the years. It’s a lot worse than guys have to deal with. So... be who you are and take responsibility and embrace it. As someone else said..... it’s all about self-confidence. Hard to have that when you feel like you’re faking it or acting out a role.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Really interesting replies. Has got me thinking quite a lot.

My initial thinking was from reading another thread, that I am talking in theoreticals. I mean, what woman comes on TAM and gets told she is a "nice girl" and needs to woman up?

Well maybe it's said in a different way and without the recommended reading, but I suspect the reasons behind such women coming here are probably quite different generally than why the guys do. That is: I think the dynamics behind a guy manning, up/upping the Alpha/etc are different to a woman doing it. Take the reasonings offered in here by many posters about how to become more attractive to your wife, both behavioural and physical. Interesting how no one has touched upon the guidance men have of starting to go to the gym, drop excess fat, get a flat stomach(the woman equivalent of getting the abs (just throwing in thoughts here), the physical aspect of attractiveness to a husband if a wife wants to improve herself.

I found what Lon was saying interesting but I would still be really interested to hear what any of the other guys who offer advice to posters on manning up based on the biological imperatives they explain are at work, would say to a woman in a similar position. Not specifically to ME but generally, if the roles were reversed.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

I think it's much the same regardless of gender. At the lowest level it's about having self respect and not allowing yourself to be treated disrespectfully. Even many of the specifics are the same. Note that there is not a 180 for men and another one for women. Same with NC. Even controveries on TAM like OSFs don't seem to distinguish that gender makes a difference.

The differences normally apply to things like women being prone to EA where men are prone to ONS but from a manup / womanup standpoints the actual important aspects are gender neutral.


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