# The OM/OW owe you nothing! yes, they do! here's why!



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Some on TAM argue that exposure of or revenge on the POSOM/W is wrong, because they owe you nothing, it is all down to your WS. It's all the fault of your WS.

That is not true. 

Let's use an analogy.

Let's suppose that you are a police officer dealing with a business where a member of staff has been suborned into helping a con artist steal millions of $£ from the business. 

Imagine your anger when the boss refuses to prosecute the con man, but only wants to prosecute his/her member of staff because "The con man owes me nothing but my employee is under contract to me so I will only prosecute them! "

It would be an utterly mad decision, as mad as punishing your WS but NOT punishing the POSOM/W!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## botti (May 28, 2014)

Is this a choose your own adventure, TAM-style?!


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

The OM owed me nothing. But I did owe him a lifetime of pain with interest. I paid him.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

botti said:


> Is this a choose your own adventure, TAM-style?!


No it was a weird moment when the edit field vanished so I posted it and then was able to add the rest of the post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I hear what you are saying, but the person who cheated on you is the one who said vows to you, not the OW/OM. That doesn't make the OW/OM good though. Clearly you can't have an infidelity without two willing parties. sometimes the OW/OM doesn't even know the married is married. (I know this isn't the most likely but sometimes it does happen). Happened recently to a friend of mine. She was seeing a guy and just found out his has a wife. She went totally off on him. Your spouse is the one you are married to who cheated on you. They owed you the vow. OW/OM could be anyone.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Right with you, MattMatt. Morals have so relaxed (or deteriorated) now that many people believe the fallacy of no-responsibility. This spreads across all kinds of behavior, unfortunately. Its hooey BS.

These OM/OW know it is wrong. They know it is harmful, and dangerous. They just don't give a crap about anyone else. The new normal. Is this the best thing for society?

At the risk of being repetitive, it is a good thing for people to expect retaliation, punishment, and basically a black eye for intruding on another's spouse.

Dang, here I go with the boiling blood again. Why does he have to be such a sissy hiding coward? :banghead:


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Forest said:


> These OM/OW know it is wrong.


And presumably, so does the cheating spouse.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Think of it this way: if your house gets broken into you'd certainly want the thief prosecuted. But you'd also take a good, hard look at why your house could be broken into, because if it's possible to get in there will be no end to thieves willing to break in. If you can't fortify your house you might have to move to another house. And even if you can you might never feel safe in your house again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

MattMatt said:


> Some on TAM argue that exposure of or revenge on the POSOM/W is wrong, because they owe you nothing, it is all down to your WS. It's all the fault of your WS.
> 
> That is not true.
> 
> ...


I think your analogy is flawed, in many cases. Oftentimes (as in my case), the wayward spouse was out looking for outside "expert" to help them complete a job they couldn't do on their own, like a bank employee who had access to the bank, but needed a safe cracker. Or if nothing else, the "con man" simply came up to them in the bar and said "hey, you work over at so-and-so. Wanna help steal millions of dollars from there?", and the WS thought about it for a minute, and then said "You know what? My boss has been a real SOB for the last few years, and I didn't get my Christmas bonus this year. Let's so it!"

Plus, with regards to the after effects... My point with taking retribution to the AP isn't that the con man is blameless. My issue is that in many cases, the business owner focuses all their anger on the con man, while the employee remains on the job, collecting salary and benefits. Oh, sure... Maybe they don't have quite as much freedom anymore, and maybe they take a small cut in pay... But they still are there, feeling like they dodged a bullet. 

My analogy... Worry about dealing with the weasel (WS) in the henhouse (marriage) before you worry about the fox (AP) 3 miles away. All bets are off though, if the fox and weasel are BOTH pillaging in the henhouse still... Or if the weasel is all safely caged up, and the fox is at the door, trying to dig his way in...

C


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> Think of it this way: if your house gets broken into you'd certainly want the thief prosecuted. But you'd also take a good, hard look at why your house could be broken into, because if it's possible to get in there will be no end to thieves willing to break in.


Not the same at all. You can't compare a spouse who willingly chose to cheat with your house being broken into. The house doesn't choose to be broken into. The spouse who cheated chose to do it.



PBear said:


> My point with taking retribution to the AP isn't that the con man is blameless. My issue is that in many cases, the business owner focuses all their anger on the con man, while the employee remains on the job, collecting salary and benefits.


:iagree:


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

The OM/OW owe you only if you can make them pay. If you can't, start preaching - 'The OM/OW owed you nothing.'

The strong seeks vengeance. The weak seeks justification for their cowardice.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Jellybeans said:


> And presumably, so does the cheating spouse.


Right. Both are guilty. Both should be punished. Both should face consequences for their actions.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

And what does OW/OM owe the betrayed spouse?


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

PBear said:


> I think your analogy is flawed, in many cases. Oftentimes (as in my case), the wayward spouse was out looking for outside "expert" to help them complete a job they couldn't do on their own, like a bank employee who had access to the bank, but needed a safe cracker. Or if nothing else, the "con man" simply came up to them in the bar and said "hey, you work over at so-and-so. Wanna help steal millions of dollars from there?", and the WS thought about it for a minute, and then said "You know what? My boss has been a real SOB for the last few years, and I didn't get my Christmas bonus this year. Let's so it!"
> 
> Plus, with regards to the after effects... My point with taking retribution to the AP isn't that the con man is blameless. My issue is that in many cases, the business owner focuses all their anger on the con man, while the employee remains on the job, collecting salary and benefits. Oh, sure... Maybe they don't have quite as much freedom anymore, and maybe they take a small cut in pay... But they still are there, feeling like they dodged a bullet.
> 
> ...


Equally, many times the AP is out on the prowl, and aggressively pursuing a spouse that eventually comes around to his/her advances. No excuse for that, by the way.

By all means, deal with that weasel. I think most all of us do, and very strongly. Once that is done, go find that fox.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

*The strong seeks vengeance.* The weak seeks justification for their cowardice. 

See to me, the weak seek vengeance. It just shows that the OW/OM are still on your mind and in that case have power over you. YMMV.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Some on TAM argue that exposure of or revenge on the POSOM/W is wrong, because they owe you nothing, it is all down to your WS. It's all the fault of your WS.
> 
> That is not true.
> 
> ...


He f'd with my relationship, so I at least owed it to him to f with his.. and he made it easy by cheating on his girlfriend and sugar momma with my wife, all I had to do was tell her all about it. Part of me wanted to tell her because I thought she deserved to know, but a big part wanted to make sure he felt some pain since I was feeling pain that he helped cause. The fact that it saved her from a life with a dbag was just a bonus. I wanted to beat his face in but didn't want to risk punishment, or more horrible finding out he's a better fighter than I am and leaves me with more damage than I can inflict on him.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Jellybeans said:


> And what does OW/OM owe the betrayed spouse?


 I'm only interested in the reverse, obviously.

I'd say they owe the spouse at least a face to face meeting, though. To stand somewhere at be held accountable. If they don't agree, there should be nothing wrong with arranging the meeting without their consent.

Debts are paid in many ways. If you owe the IRS, do you have to bring the money to them? No, they take it from you.

If you commit a crime do you have to walk into prison? No, society seeks you out and does it for you.


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

pidge70 said:


> See to me, the weak seek vengeance. It just shows that the OW/OM are still on your mind and in that case have power over you. YMMV.


Your standing in the society determines whether you are judged as weak or strong. If I was a crime lord with a hundred button men, my forgiveness would have had value. A normal guy having normal family and friends living a normal life - if I didn't avenge myself, I would have painted a bullseye on myself as a weakling. 

Before anyone tells me I shouldn't be concerned about what the world thinks of me, ask yourself - if the world wasn't important, why do you wear clothes, even in summer?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

The analogy really doesn't work. As a police officer, I don't serve the business owner. I serve society. Both the employee and the con man conspired to violate the laws of society. I would arrest them both and if the business owner interfered, I'd arrest him/her, too. 
Now, the business owner does have a relationship with the employee that he does not have with the con man. The owner can't fire the con man. The owner doesn't have to have evidence beyond a reasonable doubt to punish the employee. The employer doesn't even have to incur a loss to fire the employee. The main difference between the con man and the employee is one violated the trust of the employer. 
The employer never placed any trust in the con man. The con man never had access to steal from the employer. The con man can repay the money stolen and agree to never come into the store again. The con man and the employer would be restored to their original status (two people who don't really know each other and don't particular trust each other). 
The employee and the employer can't just kiss and make up. The employee can't just repay the money and be restored to the original relationship. The employer will have to conduct an audit because he can't trust any transaction his employee ever made. Any advise or recommendation ever made by the employee will be suspect. 
In an adultery, there is more than just a sexual violation. The OM/OW's violation was taking sexual rights legitimately belonging to the spouse. The married partner's violation was vastly compounded and so was the damage. There were series of lies and deceptions, violations of intimacy, massive violations of trust. You were not just a sexual partner with this person but a financial partner, a child-rearing partner, a future planning partner, a property owning partner, secret sharing partner, etc. You were none of those things with the OM/OW. Without the complicity of your spouse, the OM/OW had no power to harm you. Considered in this light, the OM/OW hasn't really harmed you, because the door to your marriage was guarded by your spouse. If your spouse wishes to cheat, does it matter who the OM/OW is or even how many OM/OW there were?
Now, if the OM/OW also had a position of trust with you (a family member, close friend, employer, co-worker, etc), then their violation of you was compounded, but the violation caused by your spouse will always be the greatest. 
There is a third person who deserves some share of guilt in an adultery. That is the "victim" spouse. They willingly married a person who would cheat. They failed to guard the relationship. 
In your analogy, the employer bears some responsibility. He hired a dishonest employee. Maybe he should have conducted a better background check. He helped create conditions where his employee believed his crimes would go undetected. Maybe he failed to adequately compensate or show appreciation for the employee, thereby giving the employee little reason to remain faithful. 
Of the three, the employer can only really fix himself. He has some influence over the employee (if he permits the criminal to remain employed). He has no real influence over the con man. There would be little value in outing the con man because anyone who knows the con man has already figured out he's dishonest. Being a con man, he likely cares little about what others think.


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

russell28 said:


> I wanted to beat his face in but didn't want to risk punishment, *or more horrible finding out he's a better fighter than I am and leaves me with more damage than I can inflict on him.*


Mace is a great friend in street fights


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Forest said:


> I'd say they owe the spouse at least a face to face meeting, though. To stand somewhere at be held accountable. If they don't agree, there should be nothing wrong with arranging the meeting without their consent.


Ok so do most of you think that the OW/OM owes you a face-to-face meeting or something else? I am curious.

MattMatt, this is your thread. What do you think the OW/OM owes you?

What about in cases with OM or OW is single? What do you think they owe you? Is it different from an AP that is married/partnered?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> Not the same at all. You can't compare a spouse who willingly chose to cheat with your house being broken into. The house doesn't choose to be broken into. The spouse who cheated chose to do it.
> 
> 
> 
> :iagree:


Of course it is, and I think you're missing my point. True the other person is a dirtbag but if your spouse is willing to cheat there will always be someone willing to cheat with them. You can pay back the affair partner but your spouse is the real issue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Just curious, Unbelievable; have you been a "victim" of adultery?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> Of course it is, and I think you're missing my point.


I am not missing the point. A house has no choice in whether it's broken into or not. A spouse willingly chooses to cheat. Those situations aren't the same at all.

It's not like the house opens up its own door and says "Come inside and help me steal everything."


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> Ok so do most of you think that the OW/OM owes you a face-to-face meeting or something else? I am curious.
> 
> MattMatt, this is your thread. What do you think the OW/OM owes you?
> 
> What about in cases with OM or OW is single? What do you think they owe you? Is it different from an AP that is married/partnered?


I would not want a face to face meeting with the OM. Why would I want to give him the chance to tell me anything? I wouldn't give him the time of day. I would think it's the same if they are married or single, but it's easier to blow up their life if they have a relationship other than your spouse.

If you did meet with them, what would you say if they said "yea, i banged your wife and she told me she liked me more than you" or something like that? Tell him you had her first? I doubt he'll be all "I'm so sorry I made you sad"... that's not how guys are wired. Then you'll need to break out the mace, and that's not going to end well.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Forest said:


> Just curious, Unbelievable; have you been a "victim" of adultery?


Yes. Twice that I know of.


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> Yes. Twice that I know of.


Damn....


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> I am not missing the point. A house has no choice in whether it's broken into or not. A spouse willingly chooses to cheat. Those situations aren't the same at all.
> 
> It's not like the house opens up its own door and says "Come inside and help me steal everything."



Ok then. You're wrapped up in the literal and not the spirit; there's nothing more I can say.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Ok.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Unbelieveable,
Your assessment isn't perfect either, as you neglect to see that the employer/ owner did have a relationship with the con man, if nothing more than as a client/customer. A cursory relationship existed just the same as with any other client/ customer. By having this relationship, the employer/owner has placed a level of trust in the con man that they would act like a law abiding citizen and moral person within their place of business and not steal. Without outting the con man, he is free to go about his business and perform the same disservice to your fellow merchants/ business owners and you have a duty to them to also aid them in knowledge of such low lives that would prey on their trust and decency in mankind, just as the police have a duty and diligence to arrest them.

Also you seem to make the owner responsible for being stolen from. Even with the best background checks, and security in place, they only serve to keep honest people honest. Although I agree to an extent the owner possibly bares some responsibility (depends on the amount of diligence they have taken to protect their inventory/ assists). If you are going to make them responsible and accountable then you have to also hold the con man accountable as well and not just let them roam free to do this again. IF everyone knows they are of shady character then they will have less opportunity in the future to perform the thefts, but if you just let them get off scott free and don't out them, then people whom aren't aware in the future are just as susceptible to being stolen from as you the business owner originally was.

Jellybeans,
As to the house situation, it is fair to want the theft prosecuted and the thief to be held accountable, but it is not fair to try and place human properties on an inanimate object. The house can't think and make choices, so saying that it didn't make a choice to be robbed is unfair as it had no capability to choose.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

What if the OM/OW was a good friend to both spouses? The best man brides maid at your wedding

at a minimum there is a double betrayal there


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

convert said:


> What if the OM/OW was a good friend to both spouses?
> 
> at a minimum there is a double betrayal there


I have been in his exact situation (actually was told he was my friend, but in reality was only "friending" her to bed her and not really my friend). So I have felt that betrayal and how it hurts, especially when I am not the type to make those I consider to be friends easily (I have lots of acquaintances, but few friends, and even less after that fiasco).


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

Those of you who do not know of my story...After D-DAY I outed the OM ( My wifes Boss) to his BW and filed , ( with the help from and friend who is a well known atty) a multi million lawsuit against their company....They BOTH were fired as a result..

In retaliation the OM came to my off ice and showed me pics of him and my wife doing sex acts she had said for over 20 yrs were sick and disgusting...but there she was doing them...he made the MISTAKE of leaving me a flash drive with the pics on them and as he flipped it to me this is burned in my memory he said "I want you to have this so will always know your wife was a ***** your entire marriage...Just not with you"...

I took the pics to his STBEXW and her ATTY DESTROYED him in the divorce...

After showing the pics to ALL family members and and coupled with them both losing their jobs..She had no fight left..

And the Utter Devastation of 2 families was realized.
If anyone here thinks that the OM/OW should walk free and coutinue with their life as if nothing happened while mine is in ASHES..PLEASE THINK AGAIN.....


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

badkarma2013 said:


> Those of you who do not know of my story...After D-DAY I outed the OM ( My wifes Boss) to his BW and filed , ( with the help from and friend who is a well known atty) a multi million lawsuit against their company....They BOTH were fired as a result..
> 
> In retaliation the OM came to my off ice and showed me pics of him and my wife doing sex acts she had said for over 20 yrs were sick and disgusting...but there she was doing them...he made the MISTAKE of leaving me a flash drive with the pics on them and as he flipped it to me this is burned in my memory he said "I want you to have this so will always know your wife was a ***** your entire marriage...Just not with you"...
> 
> ...


There are many victims in your scenario. The OM was a boss, so his violation was against whoever owned the company, against every employee, every family member of every employee, and even against every customer and stock holder. 
He had a duty to the owner and he placed his own selfish interests above that duty. He had a duty to his employees and to their spouse's and family. He had a duty to any stock holders and a duty to customers to use his time at work to tend to their needs and not to play hook-up with a subordinate.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

convert said:


> What if the OM/OW was a good friend to both spouses? The best man brides maid at your wedding
> 
> at a minimum there is a double betrayal there


I honestly think that is the worst kind of betrayal. That or a relative. 



Squeakr said:


> it is not fair to try and place human properties on an inanimate object. The house can't think and make choices, so saying that it didn't make a choice to be robbed is unfair as it had no capability to choose.


Which was the exact point I was making. A spouse chooses it.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

"Also you seem to make the owner responsible for being stolen from."

Obviously, the greater guilt is on the sexual parties. I include the owner (victim spouse) for one simple reason. Productivity. The owner can't undo the wrong that was done. He can't fix his employee or the con man. He does have the power to learn from this event, grow from it, and decrease the odds of it ever happening again. This isn't about fairness. It's about expending one's time in useless pursuits (seeking revenge/stewing about the wrongs of others) or using it as an opportunity for personal growth.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> I have been in his exact situation (actually was told he was my friend, but in reality was only "friending" her to bed her and not really my friend). So I have felt that betrayal and how it hurts, especially when I am not the type to make those I consider to be friends easily (I have lots of acquaintances, but few friends, and even less after that fiasco).


I may have told this story.. when I was young, worked together with my flirty wife. One of my friends, started texting her and chatting with her all the time. He'd come over my house, stay very late, would wish he'd leave. One night he called drunk, wanted to talk to my wife, she was sleeping. I told him that we could play video games (in the 90's we used modems). He insisted that my wife was his friend and he needed to talk to her about his girlfriend problems. I told him he could tell me his girlfriend problems, that I'm his friend, and my wife is his friends wife, not his friend. He wanted to fight me over it, told me I'm too controlling (something that later my wife used). After that call I checked her texts and it was him crying on her shoulder and her not saying much back. He told me I shouldn't be checking her texts when I asked why he needs to text my wife constantly. I told him I think he's crossing a line by giving me marriage advice and trying to be friends with my wife, and told him to not call me anymore. That was the last time I spoke with him. I felt wrong and horrible about that for years. Now I know I was right on the money, I had good instincts.. wish I kept working with my wife and she didn't get a job at a place where I couldn't keep an eye on her. I tried to tell her about the dangers of her having 'friends' that are guys.. she humored me and made me think she understood where I was coming from. I had other guys tell me she was flirting with so and so, that's how 'friendly' she was with her coworkers. Obviously she really had no idea. Of course when she worked on her own.. she could go full flirt mode, make friends like a woman should be able to with men.. until it all comes crashing down and she got feelings.

edit, texts should be ICQ messages.. it was the 90's


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> I hear what you are saying, but the person who cheated on you is the one who said vows to you, not the OW/OM.


_It's ridiculous logic like this above that gives OW and OM the green light to trespass into other people's marriages without remorse._

How can we expect others to respect our marriages if we can't even agree they ought to be respected?

I don't give a crap who made vows and who didn't.

My neighbor didn't vow to keep his dog's poop off my lawn, but I still expect him to take his dog's business elsewhere.

And if he doesn't take the dog elsewhere, I blast him off my property.

Vows are nothing. Respect is everything. And everyone ought to be given a degree of respect WITHOUT the need to make a VOW first.

Vows, shmows.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_ Morals have so relaxed (or deteriorated) now that many people believe the fallacy of no-responsibility. This spreads across all kinds of behavior, unfortunately. Its hooey BS.

These OM/OW know it is wrong. They know it is harmful, and dangerous. They just don't give a crap about anyone else. The new normal. Is this the best thing for society?

At the risk of being repetitive, it is a good thing for people to expect retaliation, punishment, and basically a black eye for intruding on another's spouse.

Dang, here I go with the boiling blood again. Why does he have to be such a sissy hiding coward? _

It's a delicate thing, this retaliation. I would love to have hurt him, but I have a child. Anything other than a physical beating would not have done much for me.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

maincourse99 said:


> _ Morals have so relaxed (or deteriorated) now that many people believe the fallacy of no-responsibility. This spreads across all kinds of behavior, unfortunately. Its hooey BS.
> 
> These OM/OW know it is wrong. They know it is harmful, and dangerous. They just don't give a crap about anyone else. The new normal. Is this the best thing for society?
> 
> ...


In my case, OM has a daughter that's fairly young from a previous marriage, so that came into play as well as my children.


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## NeverMore (Feb 24, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> And what does OW/OM owe the betrayed spouse?


Common decency and mutual respect of another human being. If you know someone is married you don't **** them. Simple. By doing so the OM/OW is involving themselves in the BS life. All rights to be left alone have been revoked.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Allen_A said:


> _It's ridiculous logic like this above that gives OW and OM the green light to trespass into other people's marriages without remorse._
> 
> I don't give a crap who made vows and who didn't.


You seem angry. The spouse DID make a vow to you. They are married o you. They chose to cheat on you. The OW/OM is not (although that doesn't absolve their behavior). 



Allen_A said:


> How can we expect others to respect our marriages if we can't even agree they ought to be respected?


You mean, like the spouse who cheated on you?

Is it not up to the spouse to also respect the marriage? 

Does the onus fall squarely on the AP? Does the cheating spouse have zero part in it?


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Personal said:


> Perhaps if one's spouse was legally considered to be property like a beast of burden. There might be reason in this argument.
> 
> Fortunately where I come from spouses don't actually belong to their partners as property. So a wayward spouse is simply not stolen by another man or woman, This applies even if the betrayed spouse likes to think that their partner is owned by them.
> 
> When spouses go astray they do it because they want to go astray, not because they were tricked into it. Spouses are thinking beings capable of self determination. Other men and women don't steal from betrayed spouses, they simply accept what is willingly offered by wayward spouses.


You can't just give the other person a free pass, it's just too easy. They are also big grown up people that know what marriage is and that they are messing with another persons spouse and opening up potential such as getting hurt physically or in other ways.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I still wish Matt would come back to answer what he believes the OW/OM owe.

One person responded that it was a meeting.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

NeverMore said:


> Common decency and mutual respect of another human being. If you know someone is married you don't **** them. Simple.


Well I agree. But I also think the married person is accountable.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Personal said:


> Although it would be nice We can't expect others to respect our marriages, betrayal only happens when wayward spouses disrespect their own marriages.


:iagree:


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

There was never any doubt to me that I would out the OM. I didn't go to HR at their workplace, and that's where I held back during exposure. For the rest... family and friends, I told those closest to us about what happened. It put a lot of pressure on her, and it made her fantasy of having + eating her cake collapse like a flan in a cupboard.

As for the OMW, there was never any question she should know. She had been betrayed just as I had been, and what happened had affected both of our marriages. I gave the OM some time to do the right thing while I was dealing with my own troubles... then I did my own PI work, found her, and contacted her. I was told she knew what happened. Of course, she did not. We exchanged about a dozen emails over the course of a day, she thanked me, and we haven't spoken since. 

I also exposed an affair wherein my mother's long-time boyfriend had been borrowing my car for a bartending job, and I found a note to him from a waitress at the bar detailing an affair. I stayed home the next day and she kicked him out.

Liars and cheaters love the dark, but they scurry like roaches when you turn on a light.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

The OM clearly wanted to have sex with my wife. In my state, that is illegal, a felony. He did anyway, he got what he wanted.


I clearly want to face the OM and beat him up. Under most any scenario, this would be a misdemeanor, but also highly likely viewed as "mutual combat". Why should I not get what I want, also?

I don't think any of us care about the "two wrongs" crap in this context.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

These analogy things are silly. Most of us don’t know the OP personally. So flip it….
You see a picture of a person you don’t know. Do you owe them anything? 

Why on earth would you think at all a stranger owes you diddly? Your spouse is hitting on them, your spouse is welcoming that flirtation and asking for more. Your spouse is removing their clothes and screwing them well. A ‘advantage’ of having a SA; You aren’t so blinded or don’t really have those voices in your head trying to convince you this stranger somehow did some jedi mind trick to your otherwise rational, devoted spouse. Your spouse, whether you like to hear it or not, wanted them in their pants and weren’t ‘tricked into it’. If that OP told them no, there were hundreds others in line behind them quite willing too… And, it should be noted, there are a zillion others who wouldn’t. 

Your spouse sought out the specific sort of person that wouldn’t say no, or maybe even went so far as to seduce a reluctant ‘no person’ into saying ‘yes’ eventually with promises of discretion and sex they’d have a hard time finding elsewhere.

The OP had a choice. But it had nothing to do with you. It had to do with themselves.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> Which was the exact point I was making. A spouse chooses it.


So since something had no choice, it shouldn't matter as much as something that has a choice and makes it?? Your point is moot as the house doesn't have the capacity or capability to choose, therefor making the comparison between inanimate objects and real people are unfair comparisons, although in both cases the wronged party wants revenge/ justice, so that part is equal. However, we don't know what the house would choose, although we can reasonably assume it would choose not to be robbed.

I still think the OM/W deserves to get something charged against them or some punishment. My poor kids didn't choose to have their home, family, and overall lives destroyed, but they got that. The AP knew that kids were involved and chose to do it anyway, therefor they deserve some punishment for their crimes against harmless victims (me and the kids in this case).


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Squeakr said:


> So since something had no choice, it shouldn't matter as much as something that has a choice and makes it??


I've already stated that the AP isn't absolved from a willing participation in an infidelity. I never said "it shouldn't matter."



Squeakr said:


> Your point is moot as the house doesn't have the capacity or capability to choose, therefor making the comparison between inanimate objects and real people are unfair comparisons,


How is my point moot? You just agreed with me that a house does not have the capacity to choose. :rofl: I said that very thing to the first person (lifeistooshort) who mentioned the "inanimate object"/"real people" analogy. 

Maybe you need to go back and re-read this thread.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Racer said:


> These analogy things are silly. Most of us don’t know the OP personally. So flip it….
> You see a picture of a person you don’t know. Do you owe them anything?


Yes, you owe them the same respect, humility, courtesy, and dignity that all other humans deserve. By messing with your spouse and family, they are not giving you the same as is suggested above.

So on that same flip side, since I don't know this person and have only seen a picture of them should I be able to disparage, discriminate, and harass them based upon what I see within that picture and not be held accountable since I didn't take a vow to them, I choose to do this , and don't owe them anything either (as that is exactly what they did to me and my family)?? This should be enough to exonerate me of all wrong doing, correct?


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> There are many victims in your scenario. The OM was a boss, so his violation was against whoever owned the company, against every employee, every family member of every employee, and even against every customer and stock holder.
> He had a duty to the owner and he placed his own selfish interests above that duty. He had a duty to his employees and to their spouse's and family. He had a duty to any stock holders and a duty to customers to use his time at work to tend to their needs and not to play hook-up with a subordinate.




Wiith the threat of a protracted court battle...Thats excatly how their battery of 8 lawers saw it and subsaquently
FIRED THEM BOTH....

Badkarma indeed!


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Squeakr said:


> Yes, you owe them the same respect, humility, courtesy, and dignity that all other humans deserve.


Deserve... funny word that. 

In your head, it's conditional I guess. The OP deserves what from you? Is it respect, humility, courtesy, and dignity? Ooops..... that's just reserved for 'good people'. 

Want to guess what kind of picture your spouse painted for her OP of you? and lol... this is the same liar painting yet another picture of the OP for your eyes too. Why believe it? Oh ya, because you WANT TO. You want to believe the OP somehow miraculously tricked your loving wife into falling onto his privates in some freakish 'accident'...


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> How is my point moot? You just agreed with me that a house does not have the capacity to choose. :rofl: I said that very thing to the first person (lifeistooshort) who mentioned the "inanimate object"/"real people" analogy.
> 
> Maybe you need to go back and re-read this thread.


Maybe you need to re-read. You stateside that it wasn't fair to compare as "the house didn't choose to be robbed. The spouse chose to cheat."

You make it sound as though it is only fair based upon the fact that the house wasn't choosing it's participation whereas the spouse was. I am saying it is a moot argument as the house doesn't have the capacity nor capability to chose or protect against, so you are comparing someone making a choice against something that never could make a choice as it doesn't have the capability. Straw man argument against the analogy, as the analogy wasn't about the houses participation and how it effects the situation, but about the owner wanting justice/ revenge against the wrongdoer (thief in this case). 

The better question would have been, would the owner be as mad at the thief if they knew that the spouse facilitated the operation (through either leaving a door unlocked, losing their key, or just plain collaborating with the thief) as this brings the spouse's choice into it and makes it a better analogy?? The AP stole the love, honor, and respect that the WS had for you and this is evident through the texts, emails, and conversations belittling the BS. Rarely did they just take what was given to them without knocking the BS in the process.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Oh… You are also leaving out the part where your wonderful wayward actually sought out the kind of person who wouldn’t think about the ramifications it’d have to your family or flat out didn’t care. AND YOUR SPOUSE KNEW THIS BEFORE, DURING AND AFTER. She didn’t seek out those who’d oppose adultery and hid it from anyone who’d advise against it… like you, your family, her parents, your parents, etc. She didn’t want to be talked out of it, so she sought out those (which are the minority) who would go along with it. Bet she used “deserve” a lot too when justifying herself….


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

Personal said:


> Although it would be nice,* we can't expect others to respect our marriages*. Betrayal only happens when wayward spouses disrespect their own marriages.


Not at all, we all should demand and get respect from others, and others should demand and get respect from us. The Whole philosophy of Others owing you nothing and you owing nothing to Others is what is bringing this world to the sorry state it is these days. We all owe each other respect and that's what the OM/OW is not doing. It is your choice to decide to let it go or to repay them with similar treatment (staying legal of course)


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

Racer said:


> Deserve... funny word that.
> 
> In your head, it's conditional I guess. The OP deserves what from you? Is it respect, humility, courtesy, and dignity? Ooops..... that's just reserved for 'good people'.
> 
> Want to guess what kind of picture your spouse painted for her OP of you? and lol... this is the same liar painting yet another picture of the OP for your eyes too. Why believe it? Oh ya, because you WANT TO. You want to believe the OP somehow miraculously tricked your loving wife into falling onto his privates in some freakish 'accident'...


 The only time i cursed at my EXW was outside the court room at our final D hearing...I asked her HOW could you do those sex acts and be such a S*ut with a pig like the OM...I screamed at her and said [email protected]*ING ANSWER ME...She started to cry and dropped her head I then said "It was becaused you LIKED IT....wasnt it...she was really crying at this point but nodded her head in the affirmitive ...

I knew at that moment in time i had done the right thing...FOR ME. NO forgiviness..No reconcilition ...No more marriage..


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Squeakr said:


> You make it sound as though it is only fair based upon the fact that the house wasn't choosing it's participation whereas the spouse was.


What is fair? What did I say was "fair?"



Squeakr said:


> I am saying it is a moot argument as the house doesn't have the capacity nor capability to chose or protect against, so you are comparing someone making a choice against something that never could make a choice as it doesn't have the capability. Straw man argument against the analogy, as the analogy wasn't about the houses participation and how it effects the situation, but about the owner wanting justice/ revenge against the wrongdoer (thief in this case).
> 
> The better question would have been, would the owner be as mad at the thief if they knew that the spouse facilitated the operation (through either leaving a door unlocked, losing their key, or just plain collaborating with the thief) as this brings the spouse's choice into it and makes it a better analogy??


Perhaps you can ask lifeistooshort to change how he worded his analogy since you find it so offensive.



Squeakr said:


> The AP stole the love, honor, and respect that the WS had for you and this is evident through the texts, emails, and conversations belittling the BS.


You can't steal what is willingly given. No man or woman can be "stolen."


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: The OM/OW owe you nothing! yes, they do! here's why!*



Jellybeans said:


> I hear what you are saying, but the person who cheated on you is the one who said vows to you, not the OW/OM. That doesn't make the OW/OM good though. Clearly you can't have an infidelity without two willing parties. sometimes the OW/OM doesn't even know the married is married. (I know this isn't the most likely but sometimes it does happen). Happened recently to a friend of mine. She was seeing a guy and just found out his has a wife. She went totally off on him. Your spouse is the one you are married to who cheated on you. They owed you the vow. OW/OM could be anyone.


I loved the line from the original Batman movie with Jack Nicholson where the Joker says "never rub another man's rhubarb." That's the way I see it.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I'm not saying AP is right at all to willingly engage in an affair.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> You can't steal what is willingly given. No man or woman can be "stolen."


:iagree:


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Some on TAM argue that exposure of or revenge on the POSOM/W is wrong, because they owe you nothing, it is all down to your WS. It's all the fault of your WS.
> 
> That is not true.
> 
> ...


You're not wrong, you are absolutely right, the POSOM/W needs to be punished .... but only after you have done the same to your WS. What I find (really really) odd about the TAM conventional wisdom is that it's acceptable to give your WS a pass (meaning no revenge), but its OK extract all revenge on the AP. That to me is misdirected anger. :scratchhead:


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

What is the point of creating this thread ? Stating an opinion as a fact is sure way to get some comments posted I guess


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

A lot of them are posted that way.

Same as the ones where they ask for advice but don't really want advice.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Racer said:


> Deserve... funny word that.
> 
> In your head, it's conditional I guess. The OP deserves what from you? Is it respect, humility, courtesy, and dignity? Ooops..... that's just reserved for 'good people'.


I see your nice snide remarks and belittling, but I guess you are right somewhat in these assumptions. I believe that everyone should get the benefit of the doubt and deserve these basic things until proven unworthy and then they get what they deserve in regards to their behavior. Perform wrong actions and behave inappropriately and you should be punished accordingly. If people have done nothing wrong then they deserve to be treated accordingly.



> Want to guess what kind of picture your spouse painted for her OP of you? and lol... this is the same liar painting yet another picture of the OP for your eyes too. Why believe it? Oh ya, because you WANT TO. You want to believe the OP somehow miraculously tricked your loving wife into falling onto his privates in some freakish 'accident'...


I don't need to guess the picture she painted, as I saw the writings and descriptions first hand, and it wasn't just to the AP but to every toxic friend she had.

You can stop analyzing me at this point as you know nothing of me or my story, so just stop with all your incorrect assumptions and conclusions. Your broad sweeping generalizations and assumptions are entirely wrong when it comes to my situation. I don't discuss the AP with my WW so she has told me nothing about him, except what she had told me before we were engaged about his job and life prior to me and my WW getting married eons ago (as he was a prior HS BF). Therefor no pictures being painted or otherwise about the AP. 

I am also not the naive sheep that you think I am. I discovered and exposed her A to everyone. I don't think she is some princess that was somehow ravaged by his charms, good looks, kindness, and whatever else so to that he managed to other throw her and sweep her of her feet unwillingly. She was more than likely the aggressor and sought him out. She was a willing participant in the A, and all of their actions. However, this doesn't exonerate the AP of their involvement either. They are both accountable just to different degrees and the punishments should therefor be different. I am not one that thinks my WW is some sort of princess and should be let go scott free while I grab the pitchforks and torches to go after the AP. I believe they both should be punished. She is getting removed from my life, she has been publicly shamed, lost her job, is losing lots of income (no alimony in my state for her actions and lawyer fees), is losing her kids love and affection and time with them, and has lost all but about 2-3 friends. She is being punished, yet he has received no punishment yet for his actions, other than exposure to the public. Doesn't seem just (I know it isn't fair by a long shot, but it should be more just).


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Ok, Let us talk about gun control..

or 

Obama care 

since this thread is going down the ****ter anyway..


(P.S: Controversial opinions/topics most welcome )


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

The Middleman said:


> You're not wrong, you are absolutely right, the POSOM/W needs to be punished .... but only after you have done the same to your WS. What I find (really really) odd about the TAM conventional wisdom is that * it's acceptable to give your WS a pass (meaning no revenge), but its OK extract all revenge on the AP.* That to me is misdirected anger. :scratchhead:


I have noticed this, too. 

I think it is because it is so hard for us humans to be truthful with ourselves. We want to tell ourselves things that make us feel good about ourselves and our loved ones, instead of looking at our, and their, shortcomings. 

And if there is something else we can point fingers at, all the better.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

it is a matter of degree.

Your cheating spouse owes you much in order to repair the marriage or even to at least have the truth of the ugliness.

The person or persons your spouse cheated with? They owe you respect to not intrude on your marriage. 

And since they did not have that respect, I'm not sure what they can give to you after the fact.

What you can do is expose the affair to all parties concerned. Their spouse, etc.

But the focus should be on what your spouse owes you.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> What is fair? What did I say was "fair?"


Never said you stated the word fair, never even put it in quotes, so stop trying to misdirect. Straw man.



> Perhaps you can ask lifeistooshort to change how he worded his analogy since you find it so offensive.


Never found the analogy "offensive" (and stop characterizing and putting words into my mouth). I think it is fair, as it is like I stated before it is comparing the owner's revenge and justice desired from the thief. It has nothing to do with the house, you brought the house in as a player in this.




> You can't steal what is willingly given. No man or woman can be "stolen."


Once again never claimed that they stole a person or that it could happen (Straw man argument again), just that they stole your love, honor, and respect. If you had it no matter how little it was, and they took it away from you or had it redirected to them, then it is essentially stolen or taken.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

italianjob said:


> Not at all, we all should demand and get respect from others, and others should demand and get respect from us. …


While I think that's nice, I'm not a believer in that philosophy at all.

You don’t owe anyone anything or visa-versa. What you do is decide the kind of person you are or want to be. You want to be respectful of others and you want to be someone worthy of respect. Just be that person. It makes you feel good about yourself. 

But I’ll clue you into something too…. Sometimes you feel good doing what is the ‘wrong thing’ by your normal standards. Humans are huge hypocrites…

Respect out of intimidation and fear. The ideology is ‘that is wrong’. However, you might also find some self-respect because you didn’t just bend over and did this to the AP or your STBX. See the hypocrisy? It’s glorious in its complexity on how you can justify ‘the wrong’ into ‘the right’ just by adding some conditions in your head. It’s why I love that word “deserve”. You, in your head, determine weigh and judge what ‘they deserve’ based on your own impressions… another will think something else entirely. 

Accept humans work that way including your wayward and the AP. It’s not the idealogistic ‘we’re in this together’ bull of the herd where there’s ‘one right answer’. When it comes down to it: You decide who you are and better be able to live with it. Embrace the anti-hero within; neither good, nor bad, but all things depending on who’s listening or watching and how much you care about what they see… So, full circle; Only you can really decide who you are because everyone else is going to opposing perspectives.

Some folks will believe you deserve to be punished. You might believe you are justified. And yet another thinks you should get a ribbon. All that really matters is how you feel about you and your own actions.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

First of all i'm a she. Second, I can't believe what a stink was made out of that comment; it's whole point was that yes an AP is scum and should be punished but the real issue in my opinion is the ws. If you have a spouse that is willing to cheat there will never be a shortage of AP's willing to take advantage, so while you're punishing the AP make sure you deal with the spouse. That's all. If you disagree that's fine but I have no idea why that would be offensive. I'm outta here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

warlock07 said:


> Ok, Let us talk about gun control..
> 
> or
> 
> ...


:smthumbup:



Squeakr said:


> Never said you stated the word fair, never even put it in quotes, so stop trying to misdirect. Straw man.


No, you said the word "fair" and I quote you:



Squeakr said:


> You make it sound as though it is only fair


What did I say was "fair?"

Those are your words. Not mine.



Squeakr said:


> Never found the analogy "offensive" (and stop characterizing and putting words into my mouth).


You have been talking about how wrong the analogy is for pages now and how it was better stated in another form. 



Squeakr said:


> Once again never claimed that they stole a person or that it could happen


You said:



Squeakr said:


> The AP stole the love, honor, and respect that the WS had for you


The AP "Stole" nothing. The cheating spouse gave that all away to them. Willingly. Nobody stuck a gun to their head.

Straw man.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Isn't that the thing that just crushes humans? That their spouse gave it away?

I mean, we really cannot get around that. It was voluntary.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

No, no. The AP MADE them do it.

I kid.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Squeakr said:


> I see your nice snide remarks and belittling, but I guess you are right somewhat in these assumptions.


Sorry, I'm not trying to be belittling, just pointing out the hypocrisy. See my latest post... 


> I don't need to guess the picture she painted, as I saw the writings and descriptions first hand, and it wasn't just to the AP but to every toxic friend she had.


Ya, it sucks... just a pure guess since it's standard wayward script. Let me guess "narcissist, controlling, manipulative, entitled"? All to set herself up that she 'deserves' to break free of your tyrannical rule... Mine did the same. So I sort of get hackles at that particular word of "Deserve" or "Entitled". Heard enough of that from my own wayward without a mob of BS's also bantering out the same stuff and that same mentality like it's some righteous justification to do what otherwise wouldn't be "ok"... Same mental twisting and turning churned on by emotions and not looking for any other alternatives or voices to consider....


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> No, no. The AP MADE them do it.


Less painful that way.

And yet, when we face painful things, and not make excuses or blame others, we can _truly_ heal.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> :smthumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep and I also stated what you were "making things sound fair", which is different than saying something is fair or that you stated they were fair (which is the question you asked of me), and followed with the answer to you question. Just reread the statement it is there (and you were the one that suggested I re-read things to get the idea). 




> You have been talking about how wrong the analogy is for pages now and how it was better stated in another form.


Wrong I have been talking about how wrong your assessment of the analogy was, because the house was not real. I am only debating your reply about how wrong the analogy is. Re-read again and you will see I specifically just said I agreed with the analogy as it was comparing the owner's revenge and justice for the robbing of the house and how the their should be punished. Never once said that the original analogy was wrong. If you took it that way, it is all on you, as I never said it.



> The AP "Stole" nothing. The cheating spouse gave that all away to them. Willingly. Nobody stuck a gun to their head.
> 
> Straw man.


Just because you think and view it that way, does that makes it so???? I have my viewpoints about it, but yours are the only one's that are correct, right? You tell me it doesn't and didn't happen and quote what I say, and that makes everything I think and feel wrong. I have never said it is not possible that they just gave it away, willingly, but you think it is not possible to have it stolen. Mind ticks make anything possible. Since there is no right answer here, you are arguing something that is not provable. Just let me have my thoughts and you have yours and move on without always trying to be correct.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Squeakr said:


> Yep and I also stated what you were "making things sound fair", which is different than saying something is fair or that you stated they were fair (which is the question you asked of me), and followed with the answer to you question. Just reread the statement it is there (and you were the one that suggested I re-read things to get the idea).


My brain hurts from reading that. 

For some reason you won't spell out what I said was fair or what I made to sound was fair...



Squeakr said:


> Wrong I have been talking about how wrong your assessment of the analogy was, because the house was not real. I am only debating your reply about how wrong the analogy is. Re-read again and you will see I specifically just said I agreed with the analogy as it was comparing the owner's revenge and justice for the robbing of the house and how the their should be punished. Never once said that the original analogy was wrong. If you took it that way, it is all on you, as I never said it.
> 
> Just because you think and view it that way, does that makes it so???? I have my viewpoints about it, but yours are the only one's that are correct, right? You tell me it doesn't and didn't happen and quote what I say, and that makes everything I think and feel wrong. I have never said it is not possible that they just gave it away, willingly, but you think it is not possible to have it stolen. Mind ticks make anything possible. Since there is no right answer here, you are arguing something that is not provable. Just let me have my thoughts and you have yours and move on without always trying to be correct.


:crazy:


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Racer said:


> Sorry, I'm not trying to be belittling, just pointing out the hypocrisy. See my latest post...


Guess it depend on your idea of hypocrisy and how you live your life. If you live your life by the scriptures, it is an eye for eye, so there is nothing wrong or hypocritical by wanting/ exacting that revenge upon the wronging party.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> You mad, bro?


Not your bro.

Just tired of being told I said and insinuated things that aren't there. Hate when people state things and attest them to me that I never said nor intended and then add hidden insults within.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

jld said:


> Isn't that the thing that just crushes humans? That their spouse gave it away?
> 
> I mean, we really cannot get around that. It was voluntary.


This in a nutshell.. my wife drove to his place, drove to the motel.. he didn't drag her. Then I have to think back to the offers I've had, and feel like I was robbed, I should have been having relationships in those five years too, why didn't I get to take showers and play house with someone else? I chose not to, because I figured I was married so it wasn't even an option.. stupid me. The secret is you just don't tell anyone.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

Racer said:


> While I think that's nice, I'm not a believer in that philosophy at all.
> 
> You don’t owe anyone anything or visa-versa. What you do is decide the kind of person you are or want to be. You want to be respectful of others and you want to be someone worthy of respect. Just be that person. It makes you feel good about yourself.
> 
> ...


It still doesn't change the fact that, as the OM/OW freely decides to not respect you, you can freely decide to do whatever you can to make him/her feel some pain.
Yes, there is hypocrisy to this, but the mutual respect should be the basis for a correctly functioning society, and the OM/OW draws first blood in this case IMO.

I think that the WS and the OM/OW don't "share" responsibility in the affair but the WS is 100% responsible for breaking their marital vows, and the OM/OW is 100% responible for not respecting you and your family.

I also don't think that you should try to punish just one of them, or both, or do it in a particular order. I think that, as the victim of their wrongdoing you are entitled to behave the way that makes you feel better with yourself (providing it's something legal), may it be punish the former, the latter, both or none of them-


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> Guess it depend on your idea of hypocrisy and how you live your life. If you live your life by the scriptures, it is an eye for eye, so there is nothing wrong or hypocritical by wanting/ exacting that revenge upon the wronging party.


An eye for an eye . . . _makes the whole world blind._


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

russell28 said:


> This in a nutshell.. my wife drove to his place, drove to the motel.. he didn't drag her. Then I have to think back to the offers I've had, and feel like I was robbed, I should have been having relationships in those five years too, why didn't I get to take showers and play house with someone else? I chose not to, because I figured I was married so it wasn't even an option.. stupid me. The secret is you just don't tell anyone.


And she knows she will wear that scarlet letter her whole life, Russell . . . In her heart.

You, on the other hand, have a clear conscience.

You don't think she would like to trade places with you?


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

jld said:


> Less painful that way.
> 
> And yet, when we face painful things, and not make excuses or blame others, we can _truly_ heal.


It's less painful, but you'd have to be a fool to convince yourself of it.. You know the truth, that's what hurts.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Squeakr said:


> Not your bro.


You're right. You're nothing like my bro. Which is why I deleted that.





Squeakr said:


> Just tired of being told I said and insinuated things that aren't there. Hate when people state things and attest them to me that I never said nor intended and then add hidden insults within.


Irony!


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

italianjob said:


> It still doesn't change the fact that, as the OM/OW freely decides to not respect you, you can freely decide to do whatever you can to make him/her feel some pain.
> Yes, there is hypocrisy to this, but the mutual respect should be the basis for a correctly functioning society, and the OM/OW draws first blood in this case IMO.


What bout if OM/OW did not know WS was married?


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

jld said:


> And she knows she will wear that scarlet letter her whole life, Russell . . . In her heart.
> 
> You, on the other hand, have a clear conscience.
> 
> You don't think she would like to trade places with you?


I honestly think she might if she could, but I'm still close enough out where I also wonder if I'm an idiot for giving her the benefit of the doubt. I did have that much love in my heart for her though, to continue in the relationship. She had enough good will built up because there were good things in the relationship still, like when she wasn't manipulating or lying to me and we just had a connection... When our dog died, I felt it, it felt good.. I found out a short time after. I wish my dog could have told me, I'm sure she knew....


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

jld said:


> An eye for an eye . . . _makes the whole world blind._


Sometimes you need to take out someones eyes after they've already taken one of yours out... In my case, outing the OM did a few things. 

1. Showed him I can contact his woman, and tell her what a prick he is just like he was doing to me. (Only in my case, I'm being honest and not just making **** up)

2. He knows I'm not afraid of him, he can come and get me if he wants for breaking up his relationship.

3. My wife sees that I'm not afraid of her lover, and I'm willing to put her out there to do the right thing and tell his girlfriend that she's been supporting a cheater.

4. Makes him hate her, for outing him, and her hate him for not coming to her rescue. They no longer want contact after that for obvious reasons after a LTA that had pretty much dried up anyway and was running on fumes.

5. I stay out of jail and don't have to risk harm to myself or others that get in the way.


Some of those old sayings are so wrong, like it's bad to burn bridges, I think you just have to pick and choose which bridges you burn carefully..


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I am sorry for what you have gone through, Russell. I am guessing you are trying to reconcile.

I think exposing is actually a gift to everyone. Honesty and openness rip the blinders from our eyes. We cannot heal any other way.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

jld said:


> I am sorry for what you have gone through, Russell. I am guessing you are trying to reconcile.
> 
> I think exposing is actually a gift to everyone. Honesty and openness rip the blinders from our eyes. We cannot heal any other way.


We are in R, and we are doing well with the ups and downs. I agree, it's not a good thing to keep things like affairs in the dark, they need to have the light shine on them.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

Jellybeans said:


> What bout if OM/OW did not know WS was married?


This is interesting and opens an interesting subtopic.
I think that in reality every case is very different and the motivations for wishes of Revenge toward the OM/OW may change a lot with the dynamics of the events.
There are instances in which the WS is out to get something outside the marriage no matter what, and in those cases the OM/OW is just the first one who responded positively to their search; you might want to take it out on him/her but it would be rather pointless IMO.
There are circumstances in which the OM/OW actively pursue the WS sometimes taking advantage of informations they get from a position held inside the family circle (family friends or something like that) about a moment of weakness in the marriage or in the WS mindset. In cases like these I think the motivations for wanting to exact revenge on the OM/OW would be very strong.
These are just two extremes, but there ìs a Whole range of situations in between,


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

italianjob said:


> … and the OM/OW draws first blood in this case IMO.
> -


First blood was drawn by your wayward. They have to be open to the idea of cheating on you and breaking vows. That often happens long, long before the opportunity comes. 

Try to remember something; Your wayward is someone else’s OW/OM. According to that WS, it’s probable your spouse initiated everything… That’s standard damage control. So, in their BS’s mind, doesn’t that mean your spouse drew first blood? 

Point fingers all day long. Basically, you’ll come to one overwhelming fact. Neither gave a rat’s butt about monogamy under the right circumstances that just seemed to magically happen right? Both had to feel that way; not just one. Both needed to be ‘ok’ with it even if that meant creating an artificial circumstance where it wasn’t “so bad to do this”. That happened before anyone made a move…. Otherwise it would have never happened.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> I hear what you are saying, but the person who cheated on you is the one who said vows to you, not the OW/OM. That doesn't make the OW/OM good though. Clearly you can't have an infidelity without two willing parties. sometimes the OW/OM doesn't even know the married is married. (I know this isn't the most likely but sometimes it does happen). Happened recently to a friend of mine. She was seeing a guy and just found out his has a wife. She went totally off on him. Your spouse is the one you are married to who cheated on you. They owed you the vow. OW/OM could be anyone.


It's as simple as "Hey, I'm the idiot husband whose wife your scthooping".


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

Racer said:


> *First blood was drawn by your wayward*. They have to be open to the idea of cheating on you and breaking vows. That often happens long, long before the opportunity comes.
> 
> Try to remember something; *Your wayward *is someone else’s OW/OM. According to that WS, it’s probable your spouse initiated everything… That’s standard damage control. So, in their BS’s mind, doesn’t that mean your spouse drew first blood?
> 
> Point fingers all day long. Basically, you’ll come to one overwhelming fact. Neither gave a rat’s butt about monogamy under the right circumstances that just seemed to magically happen right? Both had to feel that way; not just one. Both needed to be ‘ok’ with it even if that meant creating an artificial circumstance where it wasn’t “so bad to do this”. That happened before anyone made a move…. Otherwise it would have never happened.


Sorry to have to correct you, but I'm not talking about my own experiences here.
I've been cheated on a long time ago by my first gf, I reckoned she wasn't that keen on monogamy and just decided to end that relationship without even considering Revenge on the OM as he was obviously just filling a role that would have been someone else's if not his.
I was the wayward in my marriage some years ago and took full responsibility for my actions. My wife decided to reconcile in the end and never tried to exact any Revenge on the OW.

I agree with you that both the Actors in the A have to be ok with that wrongdoing, but each of them have different kinds of responsibility that is very specific to their role. It's actually up to the BS to decide if he/she wants to take action toward both of them, the WS, the OM/OW, or none of them IMO.


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

jld said:


> An eye for an eye . . . _makes the whole world blind._


A fck for a fck gives the whole world orgasms(that's why rather than beating up the OM, I banged his W. I'm such a considerate human being).:rofl:

I'll go with what Forest posted- _I don't think any of us care about the "two wrongs" crap in this context._


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: The OM/OW owe you nothing! yes, they do! here's why!*



jld said:


> An eye for an eye . . . _makes the whole world blind._


That's ok. I have a wonderful sense of direction in the dark. On a planet of blind people I'd still be king.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Personal said:


> Although it would be nice, *we can't expect others to respect our marriages.* Betrayal only happens when wayward spouses disrespect their own marriages.


Uh...yes we CAN expect that and we SHOULD expect that. If others respected other people's marriages in the first place, there wouldn't be any cheating.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> What bout if OM/OW did not know WS was married?


I think that anyone who is single has a DUTY to make a diligent effort to discover whether or not a potential romantic interest is available...before they get involved. If they discover the person is married/in a committed relationship, they should BACK OFF. 

But if they don't initially discover that they're married or otherwise 'involved', and get involved with them and LATER discover they are involved, they should BACK OFF. 

Perhaps if more people exercised a bit of self-control up front, cheating and affairs would become significantly reduced.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> Just let me have my thoughts and you have yours and move on without always trying to be correct.


The irony in this just activated the unsubscri......../error 404.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Vega said:


> Uh...yes we CAN expect that and we SHOULD expect that. If others respected other people's marriages in the first place, there wouldn't be any cheating.


If a WS hadn't chosen to betray his/her spouse, there would be no cheating. THAT is where responsibility lies for the betrayal of a BS. THAT is the sphere of influence each of us have - our own marriages and partners. THAT is who is responsible for destroying a marriage and each BS. THAT is who disrespected marriage - the WS.

No OP anywhere can ruin a marriage without a WS welcoming them into the marriage. No OP can get anywhere without the WS opening their heart, mind, or body to someone external to the marriage.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Some on TAM argue that exposure of or revenge on the POSOM/W is wrong, because they owe you nothing, it is all down to your WS. It's all the fault of your WS.
> 
> That is not true.


I agree. Its not true. The OM/OW owe other people common f'in decency.

Its not ALL on the WS, but most of it is. And while I think that anger at OM/OW is justified, and they do owe decency to other people, it IS the WS that is more responsible to the BS.

The way I look at it, there should be consequences for the OM/OW, but never more so than the WS.


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

If both are married then both of them need to face the consequences of their actions. If I were single I would never mess around with a married man, nor would I want to.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

These types of situations are not black and white. A lot will depend on who the AP is and what level of interaction there may have been between the AP and the BS. It's one thing if the AP is an anonymous stranger who may (or may not) know that the WS was married. It's entirely different if the AP happens to be best friends with the BS, or worse a brother/cousin/parent. Depending on the circumstances of the betrayal, I'd either restrict my actions to outing him/her to a spouse if the AP is a complete stranger, or I'd escalate it if the AP was very close to me. 

Regardless of who the AP is, the one constant would be the WS. The WS should always be in the forefront in the mind of the BS when it comes to what the next steps are. 

Just an assumption on my part, but my guess is that any chance for an R would be higher if the WS cheated with an AP that's a stranger, or maybe a casual acquaintance to the BS. The closer the the relationship the AP has to the BS, the less likely an R is possible. That's my assumption to this.

So, back to the AP being a stranger. While he/she is scum, deceitful and a piece of trash, the lions share of the blame should go to the WS. Let's say the WS succumbed to the charms of a player. When something like this comes to mind, instead of seeing the AP as this person who has the charm to make it "impossible" for a WS to resist, I think of the "player" more like the famed Nigerian Prince who need is looking for those suckers to send him $5,000 in order to unlock those millions of dollars where he'll give the sucker the giant payoff.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> Ok so do most of you think that the OW/OM owes you a face-to-face meeting or something else? I am curious.
> 
> MattMatt, this is your thread. What do you think the OW/OM owes you?
> 
> What about in cases with OM or OW is single? What do you think they owe you? Is it different from an AP that is married/partnered?


For putting me through hell. I have lived a good life and have a good career. Things didn't go so well for him.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

vellocet said:


> I agree. Its not true. The OM/OW owe other people common f'in decency.
> 
> Its not ALL on the WS, but most of it is. And while I think that anger at OM/OW is justified, and they do owe decency to other people, it IS the WS that is more responsible to the BS.
> 
> The way I look at it, there should be consequences for the OM/OW, but never more so than the WS.


Everyone is responsible for his/her own actions. The WS has specific responsibilities, the OM/OW has other different ones.
I don't necessarily agree for the latter part, depending on the dynamics, sometimes the consequences for the OM/OW are not necessary as their role in the A is incidental (if it was not him/her it would be somebody else), sometimes the consequences should be as tough as those for the WS or even more so.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Personal said:


> Perhaps if one's spouse was legally considered to be property like a beast of burden. There might be reason in this argument.
> 
> Fortunately where I come from spouses don't actually belong to their partners as property. So a wayward spouse is simply not stolen by another man or woman, This applies even if the betrayed spouse likes to think that their partner is owned by them.
> 
> When spouses go astray they do it because they want to go astray, not because they were tricked into it. Spouses are thinking beings capable of self determination. Other men and women don't steal from betrayed spouses, they simply accept what is willingly offered by wayward spouses.


I think you missed the point of my post.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> I still wish Matt would come back to answer what he believes the OW/OM owe.
> 
> One person responded that it was a meeting.


I have had a tremendously busy afternoon at work, signing off a project!

They owe you for messing your marriage.

How to get back at them? There are many ways.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Racer said:


> These analogy things are silly. Most of us don’t know the OP personally. So flip it….
> You see a picture of a person you don’t know. Do you owe them anything?
> 
> Why on earth would you think at all a stranger owes you diddly? Your spouse is hitting on them, your spouse is welcoming that flirtation and asking for more. Your spouse is removing their clothes and screwing them well. A ‘advantage’ of having a SA; You aren’t so blinded or don’t really have those voices in your head trying to convince you this stranger somehow did some jedi mind trick to your otherwise rational, devoted spouse. Your spouse, whether you like to hear it or not, wanted them in their pants and weren’t ‘tricked into it’. If that OP told them no, there were hundreds others in line behind them quite willing too… And, it should be noted, there are a zillion others who wouldn’t.
> ...


Oh, I got to know my wife's OM. Why? She thought it would be good if we met!  "I think you could be friends" she said to me.

She looked at the expression on my face and said: "Oh, perhaps not!"


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Personal said:


> Perhaps if one's spouse was legally considered to be property like a beast of burden. There might be reason in this argument.


I consider _my relationship_ my property.

My children aren't my property either, but expect them respected as well.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> What is the point of creating this thread ? Stating an opinion as a fact is sure way to get some comments posted I guess


Because on my way to work this morning I thought: "Hey! I wonder if this analogy would work? I'll try it with my friends at TAM and see how it goes.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Personal said:


> Other men and women don't steal from betrayed spouses, they simply accept what is willingly offered by wayward spouses.


BALONEY.

They violate, they trespass, and then contaminate.

And they know it.

Spouses do not have the right to offer what has already been given to another (a monogamous commitment) in secret, nor does anyone else have the right to accept it.

If I offer something promised to my spouse to someone else in secret, that does not at all legitimize that persons' accepting it.

It's stolen goods, ill-gotten gains, and an illegitimate transaction. The fact that the transaction happens in SECRET ought to be a CLUE to you that the transaction's NOT LEGITIMATE. Anyone participating in that transaction is accountable for the violation.

If you knowingly buy stolen goods, you don't get a free pass. You also don't get to keep them either.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

jld said:


> I have noticed this, too.
> 
> I think it is because it is so hard for us humans to be truthful with ourselves. We want to tell ourselves things that make us feel good about ourselves and our loved ones, instead of looking at our, and their, shortcomings.
> 
> And if there is something else we can point fingers at, all the better.


Because I love my wife and don't love the OM. Obviously!


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Personal said:


> Although it would be nice, we can't expect others to respect our marriages. Betrayal only happens when wayward spouses disrespect their own marriages.


BALONEY.

Third parties hitting on your spouse disrespect you whether your spouse responds or walks away.
_
If they know the person is committed elsewhere, and they pursue anyways, they disrespect you, your home, and your marriage._

The idea that only the spouse can disrespect or betray you is BALONEY.

How many times does a third party female have to hit on your husband before she's trespassing and disrespectful?

The third partie's disrespect has nothing to do with what the spouse does or does not do.

Both make disrespectful choices, and both of them are responsible for their choices.

Neither of them gets a free pass.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

This debate is fairly silly. As if anyone needs an excuse to destroy a morally bankrupt person. It all comes down to consequences. If you want to play with fire you'd better expect to get burned.


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## couple (Nov 6, 2010)

I don't think the analogy is a good one. There is a difference between someone owing you something (trust, loyalty, honest, etc) and whether someone is a good or moral person. 

Let's say i had a trusted employee who worked for me for years. He got involved in the situation you describe - he teamed up with an outsider to defraud and steal from me.

Well my attitude toward the two WOULD be different. The outsider doesn't owe me anything. He's a bad person that should be punished (a legal issue). there are a lot of bad people in the world that will find an opportunity and take advantage of it. I just need to protect myself from these bad people. I'm never going to like him or what he did. However, there are a million guys out there like him so his actions don't really surprise me.

However, the employee was trusted. we had a relationship built on mutual trust. It was reciprocal...I owed him something and he owed me something. This one is personal. I never expected this from him. He was not just any person out there. He was not what I thought he was. He lied to me every day while I trusted him and believed his lies. This one hurts.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Allen_A said:


> BALONEY.
> 
> Third parties hitting on your spouse disrespect you whether your spouse responds or walks away.
> _
> ...


This deserves the 2014 equivalent of a high five.

"we can't expect others to respect our marriages...." So that's what how low the expectations have sunk in civilized society? Pitiful. What's next, we can't expect our children not to be stolen by another tribe?

If a woman is married, I don't have the slightest concern what is going on in her marriage, she is off limits. This is only common sense. Is that just to much to expect of someone anymore?

Geez. No responsibility in sight anywhere.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

I think this matter is not so black and white as it may seem at first glance. Circumstances can be extremely different and responsabilities of the people involved may vary a lot in seriousness.

That said I think that the people defending the notion of OM/OW owing nothing to the BS are backing a Double Standard here, as they allow the OM/OW to avoid any ethical consideration getting involved in someone else's marriage and then expect the BS to keep a high ethical profile avoiding taking action against the person who helped ruin their life by taking advantage of the WS' waywardness...

Ok, let's assume your thesis is right:
The point is: 
- The OM/OW banged your wife/husband because it made him/her feel good and he/she had, or built him/herself, the chance of doing it. he/she owed nothing to you so this is alright, is it so?
- You ruin the OM/OW life by telling their SO of the affair, or by banging their SO in Revenge, or by getting them in trouble at their workplace or whatever... You do it because it makes you feel good and you have or build yourself the chance of doing it.
you owe nothing to him/her, so why this isn't alright? 
-


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I don't think many have an issue with outing the OM to their spouse if one exists. After all that other spouse is also being cheated on and deserves to know in my opinion. In another thread people were going crazy talking about beating the OM up and seeking in depth revenge and on and on. Yet no one was seemingly upset with their spouse who cheated, you know the one that made vows to you lol.

I'm not looking to get get in another debate about it. For me the one who made vows to me was the one I directed my anger toward. Outing the other man was barely even a thought other than it needs to be done and it was. Beyond that I know very little of this guy and could care less about him to be honest.

I firmly believe that the best revenge is to live well. And I have. My finances are better now, no x wife drama, great relationship with my kids, about to get the career thing going in high gear again, and a great GF with a great ass and loves sex. Life is good and I won't dwell in hate toward someone like the POSOM. He didn't ruin my marriage my x wife did when she decided to have a fling. If it wasn't him it would have been someone else.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

QFT.



norajane said:


> If a WS hadn't chosen to betray his/her spouse, there would be no cheating. THAT is where responsibility lies for the betrayal of a BS. THAT is the sphere of influence each of us have - our own marriages and partners. THAT is who is responsible for destroying a marriage and each BS. THAT is who disrespected marriage - the WS.
> 
> No OP anywhere can ruin a marriage without a WS welcoming them into the marriage. No OP can get anywhere without the WS opening their heart, mind, or body to someone external to the marriage.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> I think you missed the point of my post.


Then in this instance we shall have to agree to disagree.

All the best...


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Personal said:


> Actually it goes like this; If wayward spouses respected their own marriages in the first place, there wouldn't be any cheating.
> 
> It really is that simple!


But it doesn't go like this? If an AP respected marriage in any sense, there wouldn't be any cheating.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

I will echo some of the other thread here that our moral compass is all but gone, now I know infidelity has been around since people started gathering in groups of 3 or more but it has reached new depths.
I really believe we are in the midst of an infidelity explosion, I don't think marriage will ever be as it was when our parents or grandparents got married.

Now back to what the OM/OW owes you, in my mind everything while it takes 2 to tango and they didn't take vows with you like your WS, they did involve themselves and had a hand in breaking a sacred covenant(see I know church words) between 2 people.
In a perfect world or at least in past history OM were subject to a severe beating and a OW was forever labeled as tainted, I can go as far to say a bullet was justifiable in many cases.

Today I would love to see any OM/OW held financially responsible for a marriage break up as well as the WS of course, a beating or bullet would be better but I have to take what I can get.


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## NeverMore (Feb 24, 2013)

love=pain said:


> I will echo some of the other thread here that our moral compass is all but gone, now I know infidelity has been around since people started gathering in groups of 3 or more but it has reached new depths.
> I really believe we are in the midst of an infidelity explosion, I don't think marriage will ever be as it was when our parents or grandparents got married.
> 
> Now back to what the OM/OW owes you, in my mind everything while it takes 2 to tango and they didn't take vows with you like your WS, they did involve themselves and had a hand in breaking a sacred covenant(see I know church words) between 2 people.
> ...


Hell Yes!


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Forest said:


> But it doesn't go like this? If an AP respected marriage in any sense, there wouldn't be any cheating.


What incentive do they have to even care? The spouse is offering them easy sex and many will just go for it. They didn't make vows and promises and in many instances don't know you or care about you. But your spouse should right?


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

Personal said:


> There I was thinking that respect has to be earned.
> 
> Although someone can demand all the respect in the world, until they earn it, that respect usually won't be forthcoming.
> 
> ...


This is bull**it. A civilized society is based on the fact that you give and get respect to and from other members of that society. This is basic, it doesn't have to be earned, this way of thinking is what a School bully would implement, and the reason this world is going to hell as a lot of people share this kind of belief.

It's obvious that your spouse is the one cheating on you. But the OM/OW is disrespecting you and your relationship all the same and it's up to you and nobody else to decide if you should feel offended by this behaviour and how much, and eventually act upon this offense.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

After reading the title again.. I think the answer is the OM owes you nothing, but you owe him something.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

italianjob said:


> This is bull**it. A civilized society is based on the fact that you give and get respect to and from other members of that society. This is basic, it doesn't have to be earned, this way of thinking is what a School bully would implement, and the reason this world is going to hell as a lot of people share this kind of belief.
> 
> It's obvious that your spouse is the one cheating on you. But the OM/OW is disrespecting you and your relationship all the same and it's up to you and nobody else to decide if you should feel offended by this behaviour and how much, and eventually act upon this offense.


Have to agree here, if a woman disrespects her husband to me, my thoughts are that she's not a very good wife, and that I feel bad for her husband. I would change the subject, say something like "did you tell him that?" or move along, not see that she's ripe for the picking and try to get down her pants. I can still have respect for him and for marriage without having respect for her actions or words.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

Personal said:


> You do realise the affair partner (excepting the caveat that they are also a wayward spouse) is not cheating. The only person cheating is the wayward spouse.
> 
> So to reiterate, cheating only occurs because the wayward spouse wants to. If there were no wayward spouses there would be no cheating.


You are right the AP is not cheating on you your WS is however anyone who knowingly involves themselves with a married person is guilty.
It's like saying "well the keys were in it so I thought it was o.k. to steal the car" no it wasn't it didn't belong to you now you go to jail for taking what wasn't yours.

No AP I repeat no AP gets a pass there are plenty of single people in the world go hump their legs and leave me and mine alone.


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## couple (Nov 6, 2010)

russell28 said:


> Have to agree here, if a woman disrespects her husband to me, my thoughts are that she's not a very good wife, and that I feel bad for her husband. I would change the subject, say something like "did you tell him that?" or move along, not see that she's ripe for the picking and try to get down her pants. I can still have respect for him and for marriage without having respect for her actions or words.


I think that most here already agree that going after a married person or even succumbing to a married person hitting on you is wrong.

The different though is that I expect that many men (clearly not all, but many) to have sex with my wife if she gave them the opportunity. I don't expect them to automatically care about me or my marriage. Obviously I wouldn't like them or their actions and I would be angry and perhaps take some kind of revenge, however, they don't owe me anything. In the end, if they didn't do it, dozens of other would be there in their place. Sad but that's life. Someone can (perhaps understandably) choose to even the score because the OM 'disrespected' them but that's about bravado and ego protection, not about anything the OM owes you. You can kick the guy's a$$ but unless your wife respects you and your marriage, there will be tons of other guys waiting in line to do her and you'll need to kick a lot of a$$es.

If the OM were a friend, then this would be very different. Friends have a responsibility to each other and I would not expect my friends to go after my wife.

However, I do not expect my wife to have sex with other people. The reason is that I expect her to respect me, care about me, be honest with me and respect our marriage. We have that responsibility and commitment to each other.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Personal said:


> There I was thinking that respect has to be earned.
> 
> Although someone can demand all the respect in the world, until they earn it, that respect usually won't be forthcoming.
> 
> ...


*With all due respect, if "a passive" OM or OW only has as much as only a scintilla of knowledge that the person that they are having a sexual relationship with is, in any way, legally married to another person, then they are deemed to be just as culpable and equally responsible for the dissolution process of the original marriage.

The only perceivable exception to that might possibly be if the passive partner that has been summarily lied to or misrepresented by the married partner who brought them into their illicit relationship! And then that would only last up until such time that they actually came to know the entire truth!*


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

couple said:


> I think that most here already agree that going after a married person or even succumbing to a married person hitting on you is wrong.
> 
> The different though is that I expect that many men (clearly not all, but many) to have sex with my wife if she gave them the opportunity. I don't expect them to automatically care about me or my marriage. Obviously I wouldn't like them or their actions and I would be angry and perhaps take some kind of revenge, however, they don't owe me anything. In the end, if they didn't do it, dozens of other would be there in their place. Sad but that's life. Someone can (perhaps understandably) choose to even the score because the OM 'disrespected' them but that's about bravado and ego protection, not about anything the OM owes you. You can kick the guy's a$$ but unless your wife respects you and your marriage, there will be tons of other guys waiting in line to do her and you'll need to kick a lot of a$$es.
> 
> ...


I said it earlier in the thread, agree they don't owe you anything, you owe them something... if it's a 'friend', I treat it the same, because obviously they were no friend. ..also, I don't 'expect' anyone to go after my wife, or 'expect' my wife to go after anyone.. but people will try, that's the reality.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Here's one of my more serious questions! 

With me being totally oblivious to her affairs, my rich, skanky XW had photos of herself taken with her first(of two) "in-marriage" BF's, along with so-called mutual "friends" of ours that had full knowledge of what the "skank" was doing. Not only that, but the four of them also posed together in other photos!

It's so painfully obvious that I mistook this couple for my friends as they were clearly only friends with my XW. In essence, aren't they just as culpable in the knowledge of and the overt promotion of my XW's cheating?

Had they truly been my friend as well as with my XW's, wouldn't they have had a concerted sense of duty to at least have someway informed me of what it was that was going on behind my back while my XW was away from home with them? 

In my mind's eye, that couple is equally as guilty as my XW and her lardass BF!*


----------



## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Personal said:


> Actually it goes like this; If wayward spouses respected their own marriages in the first place, there wouldn't be any cheating.
> 
> It really is that simple!


BALONEY.

If a third party makes attempts to trespass into your marriage, and your spouse rejects those attempts, cheating is taking place.

Your spouse is not at all responsible since they make a constructive exit.

The third party is cheating your marriage, disrespecting your marriage, and threatening your marriage.

THAT is how it goes, and that is how simple it is.

Two people, two sets of choices, to lines of disrespect and collusion.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

arbitrator said:


> *Here's one of my more serious questions!
> 
> With me being totally oblivious to her affairs, my rich, skanky XW had photos of herself taken with her first(of two) "in-marriage" BF's, along with so-called mutual "friends" of ours that had full knowledge of what the "skank" was doing. Not only that, but the four of them also posed together in other photos!
> 
> ...


Don't think anyone can fault you for that my friend. They lied to you and deserve that. Had any of my friends had any clue my x was cheating they would have been ejected from my life as well. Fortunately one thing my x is very good at is lying. She had everyone including her own mother fooled.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

As I drink my coffee this morning and ponder this more I have a question for those who Blame the AP as much as the cheating spouse. 

Do you view the AP as the cause of the affair and the demise of your marriage. In other words did they actively seek out your spouse, seduce them, manipulate them, coerce them into having sex in some way? If that is your honest perspective I can understand more why you would have such hate for them since they injected themselves into your marriage and destroyed it. Not to take the blame off the spouse since no matter what they participated but at least I understand more of the venom toward the OM.

For me I have little doubts that my x wife sought out her affairs to alleviate her boredom and to punish me for her daddy issues. So to me this is 95% her fault and I will always place the blame there. But the POSOM wife may feel more like it was 50-50 since my x sought out the affair from her husband. 

Anyway wondered if perspectives were explain the difference in opinion on this thread.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Allen_A said:


> BALONEY.
> 
> If a third party makes attempts to trespass into your marriage, and your spouse rejects those attempts, cheating is taking place.


BALONEY.

That's not what cheating is.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> BALONEY.
> 
> That's not what cheating is.


Yes, actually it is. Someone threatening your marriage, violating your marriage, and trespassing is cheating you out of a safe, healthy, fulfilling marriage.

You want to get into a semantic debate about a matter of degree? All you are doing is legitimizing AP behavior.

Hey, if you want to keep giving third party trespassers a free pass that's your prerogative, but you aren't going to get much support for that on this thread I can't imagine. lol

All you are doing is giving third party trespassers ammunition and motive to violate everyone's marriage on this forum.

You are practically cheer-leading at this point.

Congratulations.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Allen_A said:


> Yes, actually it is.


No, actually, it's not. 



Allen_A said:


> You want to get into a semantic debate about a matter of degree? *All you are doing is legitimizing AP behavior.*


How wrong you are. Nobody is "legitimizing AP behavior. You said, and I quote, _*If a third party makes attempts to trespass into your marriage, and your spouse rejects those attempts, cheating is taking place.*_ It's not about semantics. 

Those are your words.



Allen_A said:


> lol
> 
> *All you are doing is giving third party trespassers ammunition and motive to violate everyone's marriage on this forum.
> 
> ...


You are just making stuff up at this point. If that is how you try to make an argument, it's pretty weak. Nowhere in this thread have I been "cheerleading for" or advocating" cheating behavior. 

Try again.


----------



## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

love=pain said:


> You are right the AP is not cheating on you your WS is however anyone who knowingly involves themselves with a married person is guilty.
> *It's like saying "well the keys were in it so I thought it was o.k. to steal the car" * no it wasn't it didn't belong to you now you go to jail for taking what wasn't yours.
> 
> No AP I repeat no AP gets a pass there are plenty of single people in the world go hump their legs and leave me and mine alone.


I just don't see it as stealing when your spouse washes the car, fills up the tanks, makes an extra set of keys for the OP, and _gives _the car to the OP to drive.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

norajane said:


> I just don't see it as stealing when your spouse washes the car, fills up the tanks, makes an extra set of keys for the OP, and _gives _the car to the OP to drive.



It's stealing when it's an illegitimate transaction.

That makes it stealing.

If I buy stolen goods from a burglar, and I KNOW they are stolen, I am stealing them just as much as the burglar is.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> You are just making stuff up at this point. If that is how you try to make an argument, it's pretty weak. Nowhere in this thread have I been "cheerleading for" or advocating" cheating behavior.
> 
> Try again.





Jellybeans said:


> The spouse DID make a vow to you. They are married o you. They chose to cheat on you. The OW/OM is not (although that doesn't absolve their behavior).


This is all the ammunition a third party needs to get a green light, and you just hand it to them on a silver platter.

Hey you didn't make any vows, so all is good!

That is all a third party trespasser needs to act, and that's all they are going to read.

Every time you make the "he didn't make any vows" claim you just legitimize third parties violating marriages.

You need to stop the cheer-leading and call a spade a spade.

Every time you split hairs over trivial details, you just validate infidelity to third parties just looking for any excuse to trespass.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> BALONEY.
> 
> That's not what cheating is.


*Totally! Cheating is essentially nothingmore than a unilateral or or a bilateral attempt to either knowingly or unknowingly, overtly or covertly, destroy the tenants of an existing marital union by only one of the marital partners, in the material participation of either doing something that should only be done with their legitimate marital partner, or the dissemination of certain emotional or sexual information that should only be shared with that same marital partner!*


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Allen_A said:


> This is all the ammunition a third party needs to get a green light, and you just hand it to them on a silver platter.
> 
> Hey you didn't make any vows, so all is good!
> 
> ...


And you need to stop talking smack. Really. You sound angry and frustrated.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

arbitrator said:


> *Totally! Cheating is essentially nothingmore than a unilateral or or a bilateral attempt to either knowingly or unknowingly, overtly or covertly, destroy the tenants of an existing marital union by only one of the marital partners!*


I love when you get all legal-jargony, Arbitrator.


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## extremneed (May 26, 2014)

WhiteRaven said:


> The OM owed me nothing. But I did owe him a lifetime of pain with interest. I paid him.


In my fathers opinion I should have walked up to the OM, Said well played old chap, shook his hand and walked away. 
The thing is it's not a game, he thought it would be "fun" to humiliate me in my house, by using a support for my condition to place me on the floor. He is living in pain, He wakes up screaming don't hit me again, He lost his wife, and everyone was put on notice that I don't lose with grace.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

extremneed said:


> The thing is it's not a game, he thought it would be "fun" to humiliate me in my house


That's tough. So your wife invited him over to your house to cheat/sleep with him?  That sucks. Sorry.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> I love when you get all legal-jargony, Arbitrator.


*I really think that it's just the "lawyer mentality" in me, my dear!*


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

arbitrator said:


> *I really think that it's just the "lawyer mentality" in me, my dear!*


Hahahaha. Offtopic but I do hope those outfit ideas I put together for you have served you well on some dates!


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: The OM/OW owe you nothing! yes, they do! here's why!*



Wolf1974 said:


> As I drink my coffee this morning and ponder this more I have a question for those who Blame the AP as much as the cheating spouse.
> 
> Do you view the AP as the cause of the affair and the demise of your marriage. In other words did they actively seek out your spouse, seduce them, manipulate them, coerce them into having sex in some way? If that is your honest perspective I can understand more why you would have such hate for them since they injected themselves into your marriage and destroyed it. Not to take the blame off the spouse since no matter what they participated but at least I understand more of the venom toward the OM.
> 
> ...


I 100% completely blame my XW for the affairs and the demise of my marriage. That said, the men that she cheated with disrespected me and my marriage and therefore deserved all the retribution I heaped upon them. They may not have cheated on me but earned the consequences of my wrath nonetheless.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Do you view the AP as the cause of the affair and the demise of your marriage. In other words did they actively seek out your spouse, seduce them, manipulate them, coerce them into having sex in some way? If that is your honest perspective I can understand more why you would have such hate for them since they injected themselves into your marriage and destroyed it. Not to take the blame off the spouse since no matter what they participated but at least I understand more of the venom toward the OM.
> 
> For me I have little doubts that my x wife sought out her affairs to alleviate her boredom and to punish me for her daddy issues. So to me this is 95% her fault and I will always place the blame there. But the POSOM wife may feel more like it was 50-50 since my x sought out the affair from her husband.


I can speak for my situation and I can say the first situation and the second situation. both happened (she was a serial cheater, and I am pretty sure the second situation occurred and both weren't only the first situation). I don't blame either AP for the demise of my marriage, that is something reserved solely for my WW. Still, they had a part in it, by having an A with my WW, so I still think they owe me for the disrespect that they bestowed upon me, my home, and my family. Many have the attitude that if not them then someone else, then I would be hating that someone else and wanting revenge from them. They didn't know me and had no right to belittle and disrespect me, yet they did, and openly with others, therefor they get the wrath they deserve from me.

I don't hold them responsible for the demise of my M, but that doesn't mean that they are free of all blame, and I think that is where the issues resides here. We who feel they owe us, aren't necessarily blaming them for the demise of our M and feel they owe us for that, but instead for the actions and disrespect that they bestowed upon us through their chosen decisions and actions. Everyone wants to say they aren't responsible for their actions as the WS gave it out freely (which might be the case) but that still doesn't change that fact that we were disrespected, belittled, and dishonored by them, which I believe that civil societies have a right to maintain amongst the members.

Like I have stated before, the AP have their part and my WW has her part. They are not necessarily the same offenses to me and therefor don't require the same punishments and the same actions on the BS's part. They are separate actions and deeds that require separate consequences and punishments and could be conducted at the same time or a different time, but don't and shouldn't be connected. They should be viewed separately. By pursuing my WW and coming to my town to do the deed they have greatly disrespected me and my family and for that I will defend them. Some may think it is wrong, but I see it as no differently than the last few decades of wars. I knew no one affected directly, nor was I affected directly, by the actions of 9/11 or the Iraqi and Afghan wars, but I went to war in the defense of the US that was affected by these actions and feel the exact same about my M, life, and family, that I am defending it and what it stands for, whether others view it as right or wrong, I feel it is my duty.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *Totally! Cheating is essentially nothingmore than a unilateral or or a bilateral attempt to either knowingly or unknowingly, overtly or covertly, destroy the tenants of an existing marital union by only one of the marital partners, in the material participation of either doing something that should only be done with their legitimate marital partner, or the dissemination of certain emotional or sexual information that should only be shared with that same marital partner!*


BALONEY.

Cheating happens when you cheat someone.

And if you violate someone's marriage you ARE cheating them.

Third party trespassers are deceiving, they are sneaking around, and they are cheating.. just as much as the wayward spouse is.

They are BOTH colluding, they are both cheating the betrayed spouse out of a healthy marriage.


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

Allen_A said:


> BALONEY.
> 
> If a third party makes attempts to trespass into your marriage, and your spouse rejects those attempts, cheating is taking place.


:scratchhead:


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

"If a third party makes attempts to trespass into your marriage, and your spouse rejects those attempts, cheating is taking place."

If this is the case, I've cheated many times when people have tried to get me to cross boundaries with them.. and I shut them down. Crap....


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

russell28 said:


> "If a third party makes attempts to trespass into your marriage, and your spouse rejects those attempts, cheating is taking place."
> 
> If this is the case, I've cheated many times when people have tried to get me to cross boundaries with them.. and I shut them down. Crap....


Oi Veih

The third PARTY is cheating, disrespecting, and threatening the marriage, not YOU.

Did you not read the whole post?



> If a third party makes attempts to trespass into your marriage, and your spouse rejects those attempts, cheating is taking place.
> 
> Your spouse is not at all responsible since they make a constructive exit.
> 
> The third party is cheating your marriage, disrespecting your marriage, and threatening your marriage.


Please read the whole post.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> Oi Veih
> 
> The third PARTY is cheating, disrespecting, and threatening the marriage, not YOU.
> 
> ...


I don't need to read it... They are not cheating, they are 'trying to get someone to cheat with them and failing' They are no threat if the spouse shuts them down, tells the other spouse about it and avoids future contact. I agree they are being disrespectful, and this is why they need to be shut down hard and fast.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

russell28 said:


> I don't need to read it... They are not cheating, they are 'trying to get someone to cheat with them and failing' They are no threat if the spouse shuts them down, tells the other spouse about it and avoids future contact. I agree they are being disrespectful, and this is why they need to be shut down hard and fast.


We are just debating semantics at this point.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

If my wife gives our property to a stranger, the stranger has not stolen from me. He would have no idea whether I valued the property or not. Likewise, if my wife tells someone we're in a loveless marriage, that I'm abusive or inattentive, or whatever, he would have little moral reason to not take anything she was offering. If one AP didn't accept her wares, the next one would. The only thing separating the AP from half the men on earth is he just happened to be the one receiving the invitation this week.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> If my wife gives our property to a stranger, the stranger has not stolen from me. He would have no idea whether I valued the property or not. Likewise, if my wife tells someone we're in a loveless marriage, that I'm abusive or inattentive, or whatever, he would have little moral reason to not take anything she was offering. If one AP didn't accept her wares, the next one would. The only thing separating the AP from half the men on earth is he just happened to be the one receiving the invitation this week.


The third party trespasser would have NO IDEA if you valued your marriage?

Really? lol

She just has a ring on her finger, years invested into the marriage and home, a wedding, children...

Who on EARTH would be able to deduce that the husband would value his marriage? lol

The fact that infidelity is a SECRET ought to be a SUBTLE CLUE to the trespasser that he's treading where he does NOT BELONG. Don't give me this "he just didnt' know" crap.

_These rationalizations of yours are identical to the nonsense a third party would shovel up when confronted._

_
TRESPASSER : Ya I knew she was your wife, but I just didn't think you cared if I was mounting her in a hotel room.

HUSBAND : You didn't think to ASK ME?

TRESPASSER : I wasn't keeping it a secret from you, I just didn't think you needed to know!_


You guys are just handing legitimacy to third party trespassers.. you may as well just join GloryB and be done posting here.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> If my wife gives our property to a stranger, the stranger has not stolen from me. He would have no idea whether I valued the property or not. Likewise, if my wife tells someone we're in a loveless marriage, that I'm abusive or inattentive, or whatever, he would have little moral reason to not take anything she was offering. If one AP didn't accept her wares, the next one would. The only thing separating the AP from half the men on earth is he just happened to be the one receiving the invitation this week.


It might not appear to be a moral reason, but the reason is that SHE is showing a disrespect for her husband by telling another person about her marriage trouble. The moral person would feel bad for the husband that obviously has issues and now has a wife that's telling the world about them instead of working them out in the marriage or leaving the marriage. She might also be a liar and a cheat. Consider how well you really know them and their motives. By letting them cry on your shoulder, opening up that box you are now disrespecting yourself and your marriage if you have one.

So this is step 1 to cheating.. making up 'reasons'.. a big one is 'she was offering it up and saying her man was a bad guy'. That's weak as hell, grow up and be a man (not you but anyone that thinks like that). Stop being a man boy and putting your peepee in everything that feels good.

Her husband didn't abuse you, you didn't witness the abuse, you just have the word of a married woman that would talk about her husband and her marriage behind her husbands back. That doesn't sound like a very trustworthy source to me unless I'm her girlfriend and we chat about that sort of thing all the time.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

russell28 said:


> So this is step 1 to cheating.. making up 'reasons'.. a big one is 'she was offering it up and saying her man was a bad guy'. That's weak as hell, grow up and be a man (not you but anyone that thinks like that). Stop being a man boy and putting your peepee in everything that feels good.


:smthumbup: :smthumbup: :smthumbup:


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

dgjgyjyj said:


> Is this a choose your own adventure, TAM-style?!


Look the troll.. he konws how to sppoofz the ipz.. woohh... what a geenius.

Your mom called, your mac and cheese is ready.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

That was ridiculously fast, Russell. LOL.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

world of warcraft servers must be down for maintenance..


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> If my wife gives our property to a stranger, the stranger has not stolen from me. He would have no idea whether I valued the property or not. Likewise, if my wife tells someone we're in a loveless marriage, that I'm abusive or inattentive, or whatever, he would have little moral reason to not take anything she was offering. If one AP didn't accept her wares, the next one would. The only thing separating the AP from half the men on earth is he just happened to be the one receiving the invitation this week.


And THIS ridiculous logic could just as easily apply to the wayward spouse.

_WAYWARD WIFE : I didn't KNOW mounting another man behind your back would be a problem.. why didn't you say something sooner!???
_

I can't believe how many intelligent educated people there are here who shovel this rationalizing and nonsense...


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## extremneed (May 26, 2014)

Allen_A said:


> The third party trespasser would have NO IDEA if you valued your marriage?
> 
> Really? lol
> 
> ...


What do you do if your husband decides that defending his rights is more important than the life of the person trying to remove those rights, I try to tell my husband that life is more important than his rights, Christ said forgive those that trespass against us. I asked if my husband would back down on the fourth, he said that he spent 32 years backing down to his father and his friends, now its their turn.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

russell28 said:


> world of warcraft servers must be down for maintenance..


:rofl:


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

I can take on board the xOW in my situation doesn’t owe me anything. After all, my WS is the one who took vows with me 20+ years ago and had an affair with his coworker who was fully aware of my existence. I can live with that summary of my situation.

There are two sides to every coin. As the BS who isn’t owed anything by the co-worker who my WS allowed to trespass on our marriage, the xOW had balls enough to make a few desperate requests of me on dday. “Please don’t tell my fiance’ about any of this, I’m begging you. He’ll kick me out of the house and I won’t have anywhere to go. “ Oops, too late. Because WS and xOW used to work together, another of her ridiculous pleas was for me to refrain from telling their boss and HR department. Well would you look at that, already too late to refrain from doing that exposure too.

xOW wanted to be let off the hook so she could scatter like a ****roach in the bright morning light. Funny thing is, I found myself quite unwilling to grant her requests for anonymity. In fact, it was too late for that even if I had been dumb enough to consider the requests of this particular coward.

I blame my WS for his decision to have the affair but she isn’t blameless and nor should she be.

But good enough, the xOW doesn’t owe me a thing. Yet affair partners who casually throw those kind of statements around about not owing the BS anything, I didn’t take vows with them, yada yada – these folks should consider the BS they are helping to trample on from another perspective. After dday, the BS doesn’t owe them (AP or WS) a d*mn thing either, so they ought not to get their panties/boxers in a bunch when their world changes as a result of their own selfish actions and subsequent consequences.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

extremneed said:


> What do you do if your husband decides that defending his rights is more important than the life of the person trying to remove those rights, I try to tell my husband that life is more important than his rights, Christ said forgive those that trespass against us. I asked if my husband would back down on the fourth, he said that he spent 32 years backing down to his father and his friends, now its their turn.


I would say the argument you are having has degraded into a bunch of nonsensical abstractions.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> Some on TAM argue that exposure of or revenge on the POSOM/W is wrong, because they owe you nothing, it is all down to your WS. It's all the fault of your WS.
> 
> That is not true.
> 
> ...


I don't believe its an either or situation. Both the WS and the OM/OW are at fault. 

OM doesn't owe me anything, in fact I owe him......an ass whooping to the 3rd degree.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

TryingToRecover said:


> I can take on board the xOW in my situation doesn’t owe me anything. After all, my WS is the one who took vows with me 20+ years ago and had an affair with his coworker who was fully aware of my existence. I can live with that summary of my situation.


She doesn't owe you the common decency to leave your marriage and husband alone? She doesn't owe you the respect not to trespass into your marriage? lol

No wonder people keep getting betrayed with value systems like yours!

Just because someone didn't VOW to you explicitly does NOT mean they don't owe you respect, dignity, and some decency for heaven sakes! lol

Get some self respect and stand up for yourself.

If someone knowingly trespasses into your marriage you don't just roll over and decide "well, it's not her fault... she can do what she likes... "

People have the right to freedom in this country, but the RIDER on that is that they do NOT have the RIGHT to INTERFERE with someone ELSE doing the SAME.

You are only free insofar as you don't interfere with others.

I'd say an illegitimate, secret, trespass into the marriage is interfering and overstepping one's freedom.

You can roll over and allow it if you want, but I'd say you are just allowing yourself to be a doormat to this woman.


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> She doesn't owe you the common decency to leave your marriage and husband alone? She doesn't owe you the respect not to trespass into your marriage? lol She has left my WS alone, and vice versa, since 2012. I would be hesitant to believe that it is due to any common decency on her part but whatever, she's gone and making some other poor sap's (another OM she was having an affair with at the same time) life a living he*l.
> 
> No wonder people keep getting betrayed with value systems like yours! Value systems like mine? I exposed my WS and BS over two years ago and have been in R since late 2012. They got the scorched earth variety of exposure, amongst other things I don't need to list out right now. My values system, in all respects to include valuing myself, is working just fine - thank you very much.
> 
> ...



Taking the angry, frustrated level down a notch or two in your responses might be beneficial. I do get what you're saying but it doesn't seem as though you read my post thoroughly because the last thing my WS or xOW would call me is a doormat. Even if I were a doormat, I don't think your seemingly angry response would help a reader of this thread who was trying to break free from being a chronic doormat.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Allen_A said:


> Just because someone didn't VOW to you explicitly does NOT mean they don't owe you respect, dignity, and some decency for heaven sakes! lol
> .


No, they don't. Those things are earned. Do you owe the OM/OW respect, dignity and the duty to treat them decently? Hell no! 

I might treat you decently because I simply don't have a reason not to. I don't owe you that, it's just a choice.... I'm more than free to think you are a jackass and trespass all over these things you think I somehow owe you just for being sweet little you. Go ahead and whine about what that mean man did to you.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

If I know a woman is married, I give her husband the respect that I would want, even though I don't know him. I would hope other men would do the same for me, but that's not the reality of the world. For every guy that would care about somebody they don't know, there are a dozen that don't care.. Once they get the justification ball rolling, with help from the wayward spouse telling stories of how the husband is a monster, if they fall for that they are mentally weak. So I guess I'm saying the world is full of mentally weak people.. it reminds me of the beginning of the movie Idiocracy...


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

I have no respect for a woman, or a man that bad mouths their spouse to me. Don't tell me about it, tell them.. Nothing is a bigger turn off...


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

russell28 said:


> If I know a woman is married, I give her husband the respect that I would want, even though I don't know him. I would hope other men would do the same for me, but that's not the reality of the world.


I'm the same by default.



> So I guess I'm saying the world is full of mentally weak people.. it reminds me of the beginning of the movie Idiocracy...


Disagreed. Try to remember the BS, who actually lives with this WS and has known them for years, believed the stories and lies and actually think they faithful; even sometimes after things start looking really, really bad that it's not.. And you expect someone who barely knows them to not fall for it? It's not mentally weak. It's often a lack of factual or incomplete information that you use as a basis for choices.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

Racer said:


> *No, they don't. Those things are earned. Do you owe the OM/OW respect, dignity and the duty to treat them decently? Hell no! *I might treat you decently because I simply don't have a reason not to. I don't owe you that, it's just a choice.... I'm more than free to think you are a jackass and trespass all over these things you think I somehow owe you just for being sweet little you. Go ahead and whine about what that mean man did to you.


This is sociopath thinking. In any civilization those things are due, not earned.
Nobody is free to trespass all over these things in a functioning society. 
The fact that this way of thinking is all over the place just show tha we are living in a disfunctional and decadent world (the western civilization)-


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Allen_A said:


> The third party trespasser would have NO IDEA if you valued your marriage?
> 
> Really? lol
> 
> ...



Lots of people have rings but not committed, sexually exclusive marriages. Some are separated, some have "open" marriages, some are pending divorce, some just can stand each others' guts. If everyone with a piece of paper and a ring had a functional marriage, sites like this wouldn't exist. You can wish the world was chock full of 100% moral people but we actually live on the one we have. In this world, a woman (or man) who wishes to toss their goodies around, will always find willing takers. Rings aren't welded to the body and they don't function as chastity belts.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

We've got folks on this forum who are quite legally married but have been denying their spouse sex for years. If their spouse found some elsewhere, how could they possibly complain or describe themselves as a victim of anything?


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> We've got folks on this forum who are quite legally married but have been denying their spouse sex for years. If their spouse found some elsewhere, how could they possibly complain or describe themselves as a victim of anything?


Marriage doesn't guarantee or have a requirement of sex. If you think that being married means there is some expectation of sex then it is just as fair to expect that others would treat one with respect and dignity. Sex in M is unfortunately a choice and no guarantee of such is anywhere granted within a M just as has been stated about human decency being granted. If the spouse is being denied sex then leave the M and pursue a new relationship and M with someone else instead of cheating. Two wrongs don't make a right and the choice to betray still makes the BS a victim whether you believe so or not. There is no justification to cheating and infidelity. None.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> We've got folks on this forum who are quite legally married but have been denying their spouse sex for years. If their spouse found some elsewhere, how could they possibly complain or describe themselves as a victim of anything?


If one spouse is denying the other sex long-term and the situation cannot be worked out, then get a divorce. There is no excuse for adultery. None.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

russell28 said:


> I have no respect for a woman, or a man that bad mouths their spouse to me. Don't tell me about it, tell them.. Nothing is a bigger turn off...


Some of em do it to let you know it's ok to persue them.


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## Kurosity (Dec 22, 2011)

We live in a world where it is OK to destroy anything and everything in the pursuit of happiness. A large number of people care not whom they hurt and have been taught that it is OK to have a mass of victims behind them on the path as long as they get what they want in the end (Even if that want is just a temporary thing). This is a sad fact I realized a while ago.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

"Marriage doesn't guarantee or have a requirement of sex."

If marriage doesn't accompany a legitimate expectation of sex, then, logically, it also doesn't have a legitimate expectation of sexual loyalty. If sexual performance in marriage hinges on one's feelings, then sexual loyalty must also be governed by one's feelings.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Racer said:


> I'm the same by default.
> 
> 
> Disagreed. Try to remember the BS, who actually lives with this WS and has known them for years, believed the stories and lies and actually think they faithful; even sometimes after things start looking really, really bad that it's not.. And you expect someone who barely knows them to not fall for it? It's not mentally weak. It's often a lack of factual or incomplete information that you use as a basis for choices.


Once they find out the person is married, they shouldn't be hearing any lies because they should run like hell.. The BS isn't seeing a woman bad mouthing the husband, he's seeing a person that they took vows with. But yes as a bs that was betrayed for so long I fee very stupid.. I'm sure many here know what I mean.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

If you don't believe the OM/OW is owed any payback, can you allow that someone else might think so, and is free to act according to their inclinations? Or do you feel your position is correct and must be adhered to by all?


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> "Marriage doesn't guarantee or have a requirement of sex."
> 
> If marriage doesn't accompany a legitimate expectation of sex, then, logically, it also doesn't have a legitimate expectation of sexual loyalty. If sexual performance in marriage hinges on one's feelings, then sexual loyalty must also be governed by one's feelings.


Wrong again. Maybe in your fantasy world, but in the real world it is the crime of adultery. It is still against the law in lots of states but most don't prosecute it. Whether they do prosecute or not, it is against the law. There is no law of performance though in any state (no matter the expectation, just like the expectation of decency by others) and if one tries to force that sexual expectation then they can be prosecuted for rape. Yes it might seem like a double standard in effect but it is that way like it or not or "feel" good about it. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> Lots of people have rings but not committed, sexually exclusive marriages. Some are separated, some have "open" marriages, some are pending divorce, some just can stand each others' guts. If everyone with a piece of paper and a ring had a functional marriage, sites like this wouldn't exist. You can wish the world was chock full of 100% moral people but we actually live on the one we have. In this world, a woman (or man) who wishes to toss their goodies around, will always find willing takers. Rings aren't welded to the body and they don't function as chastity belts.


That's not the point.

The point is "I didn't know you valued your marriage" is a _PATHETIC rationalization_ for any third party trespasser to use as a defense.

But low and behold here you are on a marriage support forum endorsing such nonsense as reasonable justification to trespass into a marriage.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

Personal said:


> It isn't like that at all, one cannot steal a free gift.


I beg to differ your spouse's fidelity belongs to you even though your spouse made the choice to give it away, if the AP knows your WS is married then I don't care if the bumpers are nice and shiny the AP already knows it is something that doesn't belong to them and they should not get involved.
Besides if someone were to give me a car then shouldn't I get the registration and title (vows and marriage certificate) it isn't mine if someone else still has those so it is still wrong.


Bonus Question-the people who are in disagreement with this are you a BS or just someone here giving advice? I am not asking to start anything I really haven't paid attention to who is on the other side of this or any of your stories, my apologies if it offends.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

love=pain said:


> I beg to differ your spouse's fidelity belongs to you even though your spouse made the choice to give it away, if the AP knows your WS is married then I don't care if the bumpers are nice and shiny the AP already knows it is something that doesn't belong to them and they should not get involved.
> Besides if someone were to give me a car then shouldn't I get the registration and title (vows and marriage certificate) it isn't mine if someone else still has those so it is still wrong.
> 
> 
> Bonus Question-the people who are in disagreement with this are you a BS or just someone here giving advice? I am not asking to start anything I really haven't paid attention to who is on the other side of this or any of your stories, my apologies if it offends.



:smthumbup: :smthumbup: :smthumbup:

Yup, i said as much earlier.. but I really don't think it's making a dent to these guys.

No wonder people out there keep trespassing into marriages... marriage support members cannot even get on the same page about propriety!


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

russell28 said:


> Once they find out the person is married, they shouldn't be hearing any lies because they should run like hell.. The BS isn't seeing a woman bad mouthing the husband, he's seeing a person that they took vows with. But yes as a bs that was betrayed for so long I fee very stupid.. I'm sure many here know what I mean.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agreed about the running. But take my own story; WW, 6 om/1ow, SA, 6 years, sexless, living hell, and unremorseful WW. Shortly after DD; There were some female friends who actually care about me and now knew what my wife had done when I exposed it all.

So, there's the choice. Most didn't run, they became a shoulder. Two though offered (single), or at least I think they did, because we talked about a RA with the belief that maybe it'd knock me off that fence and restore some self-esteem for me... I didn't pursue, nor did they any further. Basically, a highly emotional charged situation with a lot of alcohol....

I would not, at all, remotely expect they'd have one ounce of respect for my so called marriage or my wife based on the circumstances. Even more, because they saw how hurt and the pain I was in, they probably wanted to hurt her and comfort me.... Yet these would be OW if it'd been pursued any further.... 

Would they really be such horrible people? I tend to think they'd just be human both wanting to hurt her and help me. It's not so black and white. Lots of grey. Did my marriage and wife deserve respect from people who cared about me (and actually once cared about her too)?

The difference between those potential OW and my wife's OM was the story they heard, but the tail was the same; bad marriage, bad spouse..... Also a reason I have a hard time placing a large part of the infidelity on them (the OM). I had a choice, as did my wife. I chose to respect what little was left in my marriage and my wife. And I chose to respect why those OW might seemingly make that offer as a nice gesture rather than some evil scheme.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> :smthumbup: :smthumbup: :smthumbup:
> 
> Yup, i said as much earlier.. but I really don't think it's making a dent to these guys.
> 
> No wonder people out there keep trespassing into marriages... marriage support members cannot even get on the same page about propriety!


Well everyone has a different point of view no problem with it intelligent debate can spur personal growth. (wish congress thought so)


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Racer, I don't get why those women would want to hurt her. I understand they felt bad for you, but why wanting to hurt your wife? 

I think when there is an affair, both spouses are hurting. Or will be.

Don't really understand why those women would want to get involved. Sounds dangerous.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

russell28 said:


> Once they find out the person is married, they shouldn't be hearing any lies because they should run like hell.. The BS isn't seeing a woman bad mouthing the husband, he's seeing a person that they took vows with. But yes as a bs that was betrayed for so long I fee very stupid.. I'm sure many here know what I mean.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And trust me...

Interacting with that person DID stupify you to some degree over what you where before.

I hope you have regained all of your marbles or know that you are supposed to.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

jld said:


> Racer, I don't get why those women would want to hurt her. I understand they felt bad for you, but why wanting to hurt your wife?
> I think when there is an affair, both spouses are hurting. Or will be.
> Don't really understand why those women would want to get involved. Sounds dangerous.


Betrayed wives... How do you think most betrayed react to a particularly unremorseful wayward? 

And my wife wasn't hurting at that time... she was still eating cake, ripping me down, and justifying herself. And I was a doormat and complete wreck. So, it sort of pissed them off on a core level of what she'd done to me over the years; They knew me 'before her' and saw pieces of that man still trying to break out. Was actually good talking to them because just sharing the old stories and shared adventures helped remind me how far I'd sank trying to appease that broken soul I called my wife....


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> :smthumbup: :smthumbup: :smthumbup:
> 
> Yup, i said as much earlier.. but I really don't think it's making a dent to these guys.
> 
> No wonder people out there keep trespassing into marriages... marriage support members cannot even get on the same page about propriety!


People continue to trespass into others' relationships because there will always be WSs allowing the trespass. I do believe AP's who are aware they are involved with a married person are to blame for helping the WS to betray his/her spouse and are to blame, in part, for the destruction affairs cause.

It would be a different world if everyone treated everyone else with respect, with the way they would like to be treated, and so on. Unfortunately that's not the world we live in. So perhaps in a better world an AP should owe a BS better treatment than screwing their WS but when does one ever see that happen during an active affair? 

Furthermore, what should a BS actually do about being owed decent human behavior from other people, to include potential AP's, when they find out later they were definitely not treated in a decent manner? Due to the fact the AP most often crosses the line with the WS before the BS is aware of the adultery, by the time the BS does find out..... the AP has already willingly gone past the point of owing the BS respectful and decent treatment (by refusing to get involved with a married person) but They.Just.Don't.Care.

So then what? Do we stomp our feet and insist the AP owed us something? They should have had a better values system, higher morals, respected our marriage and stayed away? Yes, they very much should have but when they don't and it's too late, then what? I personally can stomp my feet and insist it should be a certain way but there will always be broken people out there who are willing to have affairs no matter how much I stomp and insist it should not be that way. 

But blame? Sure as hell I STILL do BLAME the xOW for her part in what happened but after awhile, even that loses its shine.


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## SteveK (Mar 15, 2014)

love=pain said:


> I beg to differ your spouse's fidelity belongs to you even though your spouse made the choice to give it away, if the AP knows your WS is married then I don't care if the bumpers are nice and shiny the AP already knows it is something that doesn't belong to them and they should not get involved.
> Besides if someone were to give me a car then shouldn't I get the registration and title (vows and marriage certificate) it isn't mine if someone else still has those so it is still wrong.
> 
> 
> Bonus Question-the people who are in disagreement with this are you a BS or just someone here giving advice? I am not asking to start anything I really haven't paid attention to who is on the other side of this or any of your stories, my apologies if it offends.



Ok, so I promised myself to not get involved but I really have to.

I whole heartedly blame the OM as much as if not more than my wife.

We have had a rocky marriage for a few years. My wife and I met him when he was our TOUR GUIDE. I noticed as did my sons that he was eyeballing her. He started claiming she was his soul cousin.
My wife will tell you that she had a weird attraction to him but could not put her finger on it.

We all became friendly and he and his girlfriend stayed at our house.

To make a long story short, he started to call my wife to complain about his life. She felt bad and also felt that there was something special about him. She also had just started menopause.

The thing is he has made loads of friends from the tours he gives. He definitely scopes out the wives. Almost everyone of the wives we met or saw on his FB page,were attractive wealthy Jewish woman, with husbands that travels, were wrapped up in their careers or were neglectful. 

In my situation there was anger issues and disrespect going both ways...

Anyway my wife sent him a gift with a letter that she claims was not over the top. But I never saw it. The gift had belonged to her mother! She always said that she started their " friendship" by sending the gift!
He actually told her no she was mistaken he started it;when we left Israel and then again a year later when he visited us , both times before he left he ran back and gave her a hug and said he looked Into her soul...I remember the second time and also remember the hairs on my neck standing up and getting ready to belt the guy.

Anyway the truth is, he kept telling her that she should leave me for him..
In my opinion a real man would have told her, I don't pursue married woman and walked away.
Or
Tell her if you truly care for me than get a divorce and call me and I'll be here for you.

Instead he told my wife he does not believe in marriage vows when he wants something he goes for it. He goes with his heart..
( however he is making her stick to vows she made to him)
Meanwhile we have heard of at least five other woman who he has done this with, but my wife believes all of the explanations and BS he has given her.


He is also controlling of her, I believe at least twice he has hurt her once she claims she fell in the shower, another time she fell taking a hike.
How come in 32 years I never saw her fall once!

Anyway. I know my wife has chosen to continue this affair, but I know even more he has taken advantage of a weak broken woman with no regards for her children, all while saying their relationship was a gift from god!


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## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

The argument over why the BS blame the AP has been going on forever. My FHW had a long distance cyber affair 17 years ago. I went on relationship boards and was told by the APs that I should on ly blame my WH not them (as a group)

3 years ago my FHW did it again. On this very website there was someone posting things like "Why is the BW blaming and planning revenge on the OW, your WH is the only one who made vows to you" etc.

I foolishly got into that ridiculous argument for a few posts before I realized this was just someone trying to rile up the BSs and see what happened.
Basically I would say blaming the WS and blaming the AP for the A is not mutually exclusive. Both are wrong for similar AND different reasons, but still wrong. The WS broke the vows, the AP broke common decency and, if you're religious, a few commandments along the way as well.

With the first OW 17 years ago , when nothing else was breaking the spell she had on my WH, I contacted her and asked her to PLEASE stop pursuing him. She told me not to talk to her, to talk to my WH. I told her I was talking to her as a person and as a Mom (she had a daughter) I told her there were two young boys here to think about ( my sons) She did not care. Finally my WH broke it off and went no contact, changing email,screennames, blocking her (she found him and told him not to block her). Did I blame her? Hell yes! Did I blame my WH , of course! Both were wrong. 

I will never think of them as innocent women who just got sucked into an affair. They were just as guilty and selfish as he was.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Since none of the Neville Chamberlain crowd are stepping forward to say they would expect all to follow their thinking, I'm going to assume that we of the Churchill crowd should continue to feel good about giving the OM/OW all the pain and living Hades we can throw their way. 

It just feels so right. Freedom of choice, eh?

Yes, I'm indebted to the Brits for providing such clear role models.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Squeakr said:


> Wrong again. Maybe in your fantasy world, but in the real world it is the crime of adultery. It is still against the law in lots of states but most don't prosecute it. Whether they do prosecute or not, it is against the law. There is no law of performance though in any state (no matter the expectation, just like the expectation of decency by others) and if one tries to force that sexual expectation then they can be prosecuted for rape. Yes it might seem like a double standard in effect but it is that way like it or not or "feel" good about it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We also have a law against slavery and we have laws against kidnapping. Trapping a man because one wishes to live off his labor is not morally different than purchasing a slave and it's a lot cheaper. Holding a man in permanent servitude under threat of losing his kids and/or half his life's earnings is actually worse than kidnapping, morally. There is a chance that the police or the FBI might some day rescue a kidnap victim and put a bullet between the eyes of the kidnapper. There is no law I'm aware of that requires a healthy man to go to work, no law requiring him to tell his wife the truth, to recognize her birthday, to refrain from calling her stupid, fat, or ugly. I believe most sane people instantly recognize that such behaviors would be wrong.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

TryingToRecover said:


> People continue to trespass into others' relationships because there will always be WSs allowing the trespass.


I could just as easily argue the converse :

_Married men and women will continue to cheat because there will always be third parties allowing the wayward an opportunity.
_
Sorry, but you just invalidated your own argument there.

If there is no wayward, there is no cheating. Conversely, if there is no third party, there is no cheating.

You can't pin the cheating on one rather than the other.

They both make choices.

They both collude

They both lie.

They both disrespect.

They both contaminate.

Pinning blame on the wayward and trivializing the third party trespasser does not logically work.

There are cases where the third party does not know the wayward is married, but the discussion in this thread I do not believe is about those cases. Just cases where the third party is well in the know.

And for the record, *both the wayward and the trespasser allow the transgression*. These third parties aren't mindless automatons just following the whims of the wayward you know. That's how that reads.

Third party trespassers aren't robots, puppets, children, or pets. As adults they are accountable as much as the wayward is.

Both are adults, both make choices, and both are accountable for their choices independently of the other.

The "it's his fault, he tempted me to step out on my husband" doesn't fly, and neither does the "its' her fault, she seduced me into trespassing into your marriage"...

Finger pointing the other isn't going to fly. People make choices and as adults we hold them accountable for those choices.


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

im a little late to the party but i so disagree with mattmatt. he my ex wifes om owes me nothing...................but on the other hand i owe him so so so much. he took the lying cheating worthless ugly pathetic human that was my wife away from me. i OWE him so much. he is on my christmas card list.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

jld said:


> And she knows she will wear that scarlet letter her whole life, Russell . . . In her heart.
> 
> You, on the other hand, have a clear conscience.
> 
> You don't think she would like to trade places with you?


You make the fallacy of presuming all humans have a conscience. Some of the cheaters, particularly serial cheaters, are narcissists lacking a conscience.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

larry.gray said:


> You make the fallacy of presuming all humans have a conscience. Some of the cheaters, particularly serial cheaters, are narcissists lacking a conscience.


My wife wasn't a serial cheater (that I know of ) just a very LTA.. and I think it was eating away at her conscience, but she kept piling up the justifications and bull crap reasons to keep getting the rush.. I guess for the others, it's worth the hit to your self respect and values.. It's pretty easy to justify these days, just look around.. hell, look in this thread. People can make it into no big deal, with a few simple words. It's like a romance novel, it's romantic, not evil.. Just like on TV and in the movies, true romance with a forbidden lover that you escape with. The stuff dreams are made of.


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> I could just as easily argue the converse :
> 
> _Married men and women will continue to cheat because there will always be third parties allowing the wayward an opportunity.
> _
> ...


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

larry.gray said:


> You make the fallacy of presuming all humans have a conscience. Some of the cheaters, particularly serial cheaters, are narcissists lacking a conscience.


Exactly right Larry. I can promise you my x wife has no, zip, zero remorse over what she did. Total clear conscious. Only thing I can think that would ever make her regret is if the kids stop talking to her one day cause of what she did. That seems unlikely.


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## SteveK (Mar 15, 2014)

Another thought is how my wife became a sneak and a liar.

I know OM taught her a lot of the sneaking around. She learned how to go to work, call me , leave , see him, go back to work , call me then come home.

She learned how to check into her hotel while on a trip, use the concierge phone to call him and meet him somewhere else.

It's unbelievable what he taught her.

But to this day she still does not believe that he's a womanizer and has more experience at this than anyone I have met.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> We also have a law against slavery and we have laws against kidnapping. Trapping a man because one wishes to live off his labor is not morally different than purchasing a slave and it's a lot cheaper. Holding a man in permanent servitude under threat of losing his kids and/or half his life's earnings is actually worse than kidnapping, morally. There is a chance that the police or the FBI might some day rescue a kidnap victim and put a bullet between the eyes of the kidnapper. There is no law I'm aware of that requires a healthy man to go to work, no law requiring him to tell his wife the truth, to recognize her birthday, to refrain from calling her stupid, fat, or ugly. I believe most sane people instantly recognize that such behaviors would be wrong.


?????? :smh. 
I don't understand these rants as they have nothing to add to the discussion and only serve to show that you possibly have some strange morals. I have shown that there are laws against what you have suggested happen and am getting back in return ravings about strange morality and weird analogies connecting them. We are talking about marriages, affairs, sex, and laws as they pertain to them.

Yet somehow you are comparing the morality of slavery, kidnapping, entrapment, and belittling/insulting??? Sorry but no one can be trapped into staying over the idea of losing money or their kids, that is a choice they make based on those possible outcomes but is still their choice as they can't be MADE to stay (and the thought is just as wrong as justifying infidelity). Sorry but if you are not going to even present valid points of debate and just off topic rants then this discussion is futile as you have nothing to add but raving mad off topic rants.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> We also have a law against slavery and we have laws against kidnapping. Trapping a man because one wishes to live off his labor is not morally different than purchasing a slave and it's a lot cheaper. Holding a man in permanent servitude under threat of losing his kids and/or half his life's earnings is actually worse than kidnapping, morally. There is a chance that the police or the FBI might some day rescue a kidnap victim and put a bullet between the eyes of the kidnapper. There is no law I'm aware of that requires a healthy man to go to work, no law requiring him to tell his wife the truth, to recognize her birthday, to refrain from calling her stupid, fat, or ugly. I believe most sane people instantly recognize that such behaviors would be wrong.


There's a few things for the "there oughta be a law" list, anyway.

Its like adultery. Any mature person should recognize you don't do those things. You must work to support yourself. You should treat your spouse well. You shouldn't commit adultery.

Don't adhere to these, and there will be a price to pay. Hunger, divorce, black eye.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

terrence4159 said:


> i OWE him so much. he is on my christmas card list.


:rofl:


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

"Any mature person should recognize you don't do those things."

I completely concur. And all people should exercise regularly, maintain a healthy weight, use good manners at all times, drive prudently, there should be no wars, no hungry kids, no divorce, etc, etc. 

In the real world, people are imperfect. In a previous marriage, my wife had an affair..in my own home. Being an investigator, it took me about half a second to identify the guy. I paid him a visit with all these intentions of extracting him from the realm of the living. I found out she had told him we were separated and divorcing (neither was true at the time). Giving the same information, almost every single male at Ft Bragg would have nailed her. I can't kill every man on Ft Bragg and even if I could, I'd still be married to a cheating, lying bat. I put the responsibility for the affair squarely where it belonged..on her cheating shoulders. We are no longer married and she has continued to play her cheating games with every man she has hooked up with since. She was my problem, not the dude.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> "Any mature person should recognize you don't do those things."
> 
> I completely concur. And all people should exercise regularly, maintain a healthy weight, use good manners at all times, drive prudently, there should be no wars, no hungry kids, no divorce, etc, etc.
> 
> In the real world, people are imperfect. In a previous marriage, my wife had an affair..in my own home. Being an investigator, it took me about half a second to identify the guy. I paid him a visit with all these intentions of extracting him from the realm of the living. I found out she had told him we were separated and divorcing (neither was true at the time). Giving the same information, almost every single male at Ft Bragg would have nailed her. I can't kill every man on Ft Bragg and even if I could, I'd still be married to a cheating, lying bat. I put the responsibility for the affair squarely where it belonged..on her cheating shoulders. We are no longer married and she has continued to play her cheating games with every man she has hooked up with since. She was my problem, not the dude.


I'm not sure I'd believe him anymore than your WW.. but it's pretty common for cheaters to claim to be separated, I would think if I was going to sleep with someone, I might want to verify that and not just take the word for it. I'd want to know how, same house? Different rooms? If so, I'd want to talk to the spouse about it.. make sure I'm not being lied to. I don't think I could sleep with someone that was living in the same house as the spouse.. even if claiming to be separated, I just wouldn't buy it without more than a word from someone that's married. It's just too easy..

So I guess your point is that the world is full of naive people as well as shady people... could be you, could be him... someone is being played. You give them a pass for falling for bullcrap that's fed from your WS, because men are weak and women are pretty and have boobies.... it's distracting, they say they are separated, that's good enough for most.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

russell28 said:


> I'm not sure I'd believe him anymore than your WW.. but it's pretty common for cheaters to claim to be separated, I would think if I was going to sleep with someone, I might want to verify that and not just take the word for it. I'd want to know how, same house? Different rooms? If so, I'd want to talk to the spouse about it.. make sure I'm not being lied to. I don't think I could sleep with someone that was living in the same house as the spouse.. even if claiming to be separated, I just wouldn't buy it without more than a word from someone that's married. It's just too easy..


Perhaps, but the average young male isn't looking for reasons not to have sex. We need very little encouragement and not a whole lot of moral justification.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> Perhaps, but the average young male isn't looking for reasons not to have sex. We need very little encouragement and not a whole lot of moral justification.


I think this thread is talking about 'what does happen' vs. 'what should happen'.. 

Many men will use any excuse to have sex with anyone willing and some prefer married women because they won't have to leave a steady relationship to sleep with them and it's an ego boost to help them compensate for (insert issue here). When you say "we", don't speak for me please.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

If you want to "out" the OM/OW, I suppose it's your prerogative, but how would doing so improve you or your life?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

"When you say "we", don't speak for me please."

Fair enough, but I would urge you to not imagine that you are immune to all temptation, regardless of how moral or saintly you believe yourself to be. You have no idea what the future will bring and none of us have wings. Peter denied Christ three times.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> *Exactly right Larry. I can promise you my x wife has no, zip, zero remorse over what she did. Total clear conscious. Only thing I can think that would ever make her regret is if the kids stop talking to her one day cause of what she did. That seems unlikely.*


*Wolfie: I would almost bet the farm that your XW and my rich, skanky XW are inherently of the same ilk to the point that they have probably friended each other over on FB!*


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> If you want to "out" the OM/OW, I suppose it's your prerogative, but how would doing so improve you or your life?


It improved my life because I know the scumbag isn't living with his girlfriend anymore, using her money to buy him stuff, and her apartment to sleep with other guys wives. I know that living with his 84 year old mom will slow down his game, and I feel better that I helped his gf get out of a toxic relationship. I feel good that he doesn't feel that he got away with screwing my wife without paying any consequences. I feel good knowing that he knows I'm not afraid of him, that I know how to hunt him and his girlfriend down, that I could reach out to her just like he reached out to my wife. It showed my wife that I'm not someone that will sit back and take abuse once I become aware that someone is abusing me, and that improved my life greatly. It helped me to become alpha, and push him to beta status to use terms that are used here from time to time.. I helped his gf cause him pain since he helped my wife cause me pain. I helped show her who she was really with, like he helped show me who I was really with. I also became the alpha to his gf and he got pushed to beta status with her, also felt good.. because I saved her from wasting more of her life with the cheating scumbag. That felt good too... He f'd up his life, not me.. he chose to mess with my wife figuring he was safe to eat cake, and it worked for quite a while.. but eventually I made him choke on it. That felt good. Yea, it improved my life, I can recommend it. 

Blow up the OM/OW's life if you can with honesty, cheaters hate honesty, it'll mess up their game and it makes you feel good.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

So, your efforts were to force honesty in his life but you're still living with a cheater? God bless you for hanging in there. I didn't have it in me to forgive and carry on. I get deployed for months or years at a time. I really can't be married to a cheater.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> "When you say "we", don't speak for me please."
> 
> Fair enough, but I would urge you to not imagine that you are immune to all temptation, regardless of how moral or saintly you believe yourself to be. You have no idea what the future will bring and none of us have wings. Peter denied Christ three times.


They trick to avoid temptation is simply to not put yourself in a position where temptation's get offered.

And you don't need wings to do that, just some self respect.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> So, your efforts were to force honesty in his life but you're still living with a cheater? God bless you for hanging in there. I didn't have it in me to forgive and carry on. I get deployed for months or years at a time. I really can't be married to a cheater.


I forced honesty on both of them for the affair, it was brought out in the light for both him and her. My children know, our families know, we separated for a short time. Your choice is the right one for you, I wish you the best.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> They trick to avoid temptation is simply to not put yourself in a position where temptation's get offered.
> 
> And you don't need wings to do that, just some self respect.


This... If I told you some of the situations I got myself into early in life, that I also got myself out of, that guy would call me a liar.. You'd understand where I was coming from. Now those situations are very rare, because I know how to avoid them (don't go to lunch breaks with pretty ladies.. don't flirt with them unless you're married to them, don't stop off at someones apartment because they need to get something especially if you used to have a crush on her, even if your wife knows you're with her......).


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I avoid problem situations like the plague but next year could still find me in prison, a drug addict, a drunk, flat broke, in a mental institution, homeless, or whatever. There but for the grace of God go I (or anyone else).


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> I avoid problem situations like the plague but next year could still find me in prison, a drug addict, a drunk, flat broke, in a mental institution, homeless, or whatever. There but for the grace of God go I (or anyone else).


Wow sounds like you're at the mercy of god.. he's going to make you a drunk and a drug addict, crazy and broke all in one year.. Sounds like a mean god.. perhaps you should try to put effort forth and not rely on god so much? 

God helps those that help themselves.. in other words, god isn't micro managing your life. You need to put effort into not becoming a drug addict, not becoming a drunk, staying clear in the head as best as you can, try to keep a job... put forth effort, don't sit back and wait for god and to see what happens to you. Don't worry about and make excuses for why the sky will fall.. just build a solid roof, you can control that.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

russell28 said:


> Wow sounds like you're at the mercy of god.. he's going to make you a drunk and a drug addict, crazy and broke all in one year.. Sounds like a mean god.. perhaps you should try to put effort forth and not rely on god so much?
> 
> God helps those that help themselves.. in other words, god isn't micro managing your life. You need to put effort into not becoming a drug addict, not becoming a drunk, staying clear in the head as best as you can, try to keep a job... put forth effort, don't sit back and wait for god and to see what happens to you. Don't worry about and make excuses for why the sky will fall.. just build a solid roof, you can control that.


*I truly feel that God attempts to direct one's life, largely in such a way, so as to better serve Him and His kingdom!*


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

russell28 said:


> Wow sounds like you're at the mercy of god.. he's going to make you a drunk and a drug addict, crazy and broke all in one year.. Sounds like a mean god.. perhaps you should try to put effort forth and not rely on god so much?
> 
> God helps those that help themselves.. in other words, god isn't micro managing your life. You need to put effort into not becoming a drug addict, not becoming a drunk, staying clear in the head as best as you can, try to keep a job... put forth effort, don't sit back and wait for god and to see what happens to you. Don't worry about and make excuses for why the sky will fall.. just build a solid roof, you can control that.


You really control very little. A very good friend of mine, graduate degree, healthy as a mule, sober, crystal clear criminal history, great job, in less than a year became an unemployed 80 pound drug addicted cancer patient. If you believe you have the world by the testicles, you are mistaken.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> You really control very little. A very good friend of mine, graduate degree, healthy as a mule, sober, crystal clear criminal history, great job, in less than a year became an unemployed 80 pound drug addicted cancer patient. If you believe you have the world by the testicles, you are mistaken.



There are some things you can't control.. lightning strikes your house you're homeless, now you have to decide to blame god for taking your house away, or you start to rebuild the house. I feel for your friend, but they have to still do the best they can with the cards they are dealt like anyone. 



arbitrator said:


> *I truly feel that God attempts to direct one's life, largely in such a way, so as to better serve Him and His kingdom!*


I don't want to get into a long religious debate, but if god is all powerful, he wouldn't need to attempt anything, he'd be able to pull it off. Humans have free will, we can better serve ourselves and our own kingdom by not projecting everything to some sort of outside divine force. Most religions philosophy is that it's good to help the species pro-create and flourish.. it's bad to do anything that might wipe the species out. God isn't giving someone cancer as a test or for any other reason. Cancer is part of being a living creature that can get illnesses and even die.. It's part of being human. A horrible part that we can only hope never touches us but it usually does in some way.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> I avoid problem situations like the plague but next year could still find me in prison, a drug addict, a drunk, flat broke, in a mental institution, homeless, or whatever. There but for the grace of God go I (or anyone else).


Fits with your view that OM/OW should be let off the hook.

We definitely have different views of personal responsibility. Some people have a much lower probability of encountering problems like you describe. Those that practice personal responsibility.


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> *You really control very little*. A very good friend of mine, graduate degree, healthy as a mule, sober, crystal clear criminal history, great job, in less than a year became an unemployed 80 pound drug addicted cancer patient. If you believe you have the world by the testicles, you are mistaken.


Are you saying it's better to curl up and die rather than moving forward coz we are all fcking insignificant? UNBELIEVABLE.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

WhiteRaven said:


> Are you saying it's better to curl up and die rather than moving forward coz we are all fcking insignificant? UNBELIEVABLE.


But you are insignificant. Sorry. You can have an effect on others and things around you, but you can not control what that effect with be or how they might interpret it; That is for them to control.

You, at best, are an influence on the people you touch, but never in control of anything except yourself. People outside your touch... could care less and you have no influence at all. 

And it works in reverse... You can't control the things that happen around you. You can only control your reaction to it. At best, you might be able to influence like avoiding risky situations to lower the probability of something bad, but you can't control that nothing bad will ever happen...


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

Racer said:


> But you are insignificant. Sorry. You can have an effect on others and things around you, but you can not control what that effect with be or how they might interpret it; That is for them to control.
> 
> You, at best, are an influence on the people you touch, but never in control of anything except yourself. People outside your touch... could care less and you have no influence at all.
> 
> And it works in reverse... You can't control the things that happen around you. You can only control your reaction to it. At best, you might be able to influence like avoiding risky situations to lower the probability of something bad, but you can't control that nothing bad will ever happen...


You go with zen, I'll go with greed. My life, my world, my people - won't have it anyway else.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

WhiteRaven said:


> Are you saying it's better to curl up and die rather than moving forward coz we are all fcking insignificant? UNBELIEVABLE.


No, I'm saying we aren't the center of the universe. You can't control others and you really don't have complete control over your self. You have an idea of how life ought to be but that's all it is...an idea. If some OM or OW exposes the fact that you have married an unfaithful, disloyal person, they aren't your enemy. They have done you a great favor. If they take the cheating bat off your hands, they have done you a greater favor. You could beat them up but they will heal in a few weeks. If they latch onto your cheating bat, they will suffer daily for years..all without you lifting a finger.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

I generally disregard most things that I cannot control and focus on only those things that I have a direct effect on. Of course the trick is to know which is which.


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## Riley_Z (Jan 29, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> Let's suppose that you are a police officer dealing with a business where a member of staff has been suborned into helping a con artist steal millions of $£ from the business.
> 
> Imagine your anger when the boss refuses to prosecute the con man, but only wants to prosecute his/her member of staff because "The con man owes me nothing but my employee is under contract to me so I will only prosecute them! "
> 
> It would be an utterly mad decision, as mad as punishing your WS but NOT punishing the POSOM/W!


It would be nice if infidelity were an actual crime.

Are there any countries where infidelity, poaching on another household IS a crime?


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Riley_Z said:


> It would be nice if infidelity were an actual crime.
> 
> Are there any countries where infidelity, poaching on another household IS a crime?


Yes. Several countries it is still a punishable crime (some punishable by death), and several states in the US still have adultery crimes (although punishment for it is getting less and less) and those same states allow alienation of affection and criminal conversation lawsuits against the affair partner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

Squeakr said:


> Yes. Several countries it is still a punishable crime (some punishable by death), and several states in the US still have adultery crimes (although punishment for it is getting less and less) and those same states allow alienation of affection and criminal conversation lawsuits against the affair partner.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They way things are going, one day the courts would make it a punishable offence if the BSs don't invite OM/OWs for easter and xmas celebrations. Just venting.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

WhiteRaven said:


> They way things are going, one day the courts would make it a punishable offence if the BSs don't invite OM/OWs for easter and xmas celebrations. Just venting.


Agreed. The worst part of that thought is not that the courts are imparting their judgements and morality but that they are just enforcing the wants, demands, and requirements of the society they are representing. Things are going to hell in a hand basket real quick. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

Squeakr said:


> Agreed. The worst part of that thought is not that the courts are imparting their judgements and morality but that they are just enforcing the wants, demands, and requirements of the society they are representing. Things are going to hell in a hand basket real quick.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Business will boom for attorneys, ICs and ... button men. If laws are flawed, someone will always break or circumvent them. 

Society will make monsters out of decent folks.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

SteveK said:


> I know OM taught her a lot of the sneaking around. She learned how to go to work, call me , leave , see him, go back to work , call me then come home.
> 
> She learned how to check into her hotel while on a trip, use the concierge phone to call him and meet him somewhere else.
> 
> ...


As a former professor I realized early on you can only teach what someone is willing to learn.

What seems to be missing when talking about the punishment due the POSOM/OW is that your spouse is likely the POSOM/OW to someone.


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## Legalaff (May 31, 2014)

Hmm... My H told her we were separated and going through a divorce. Well she believed, he goes home where she lives with mother. Like a perfect boyfriend.when I found out all hell broke loose. He hit me, and threatened to kill me if I told her the truth. He got arrested, both she and the mother came to the court and the the mum was heard saying, "he is like a son to me." I said nothing, I think out of both fear and shock. It's been 5 months now and she still does not know the truth, (or does she?) that he was never separated nor going through a divorce. But you know what, I am glad he is gone, and one day she will find out the truth. That she and him hurt two innocent kids. And life is karma.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

WhiteRaven said:


> Society will make monsters out of decent folks.


Yeah, its fine to be an inconsiderate, obnoxious, snake worshipping freak that lives without regard or mercy toward others. All your opinions will then be considered and given weight. If you look or behave anything like a character from "Father Knows Best", though--you're some kind of out of touch, useless stick in the mud, and all your opinions ridiculed.

Its all those generations of our ancestors we should really shun, though. How dare they not anticipate our 21st Century dogma?


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Adultery is still a crime in many states, good luck ever finding a DA who would actually attempt to prosecute. Our court system would have to devote an entire court division just for trials. Of course divorce court would be much less busy. The OM in my mess has now been a part of seven divorces that I know of over the years, not including 2 of his own. 

Does he owe me anything, yes but the only meaningful thing he could have done would have been to keep her around long enough for me to get the divorce done so I would be out alimony. That would have been a nice gesture. The clown has tried to apologize to me thru friends, I found this more insulting than anything. 

I think half the reason divorces run so long is because the legal system knows full well the affairs will end long before the divorce will so drag it out for the alimony.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

honcho said:


> *Adultery is still a crime in many states, good luck ever finding a DA who would actually attempt to prosecute. Our court system would have to devote an entire court division just for trials.* Of course divorce court would be much less busy. The OM in my mess has now been a part of seven divorces that I know of over the years, not including 2 of his own.
> 
> Does he owe me anything, yes but the only meaningful thing he could have done would have been to keep her around long enough for me to get the divorce done so I would be out alimony. That would have been a nice gesture. The clown has tried to apologize to me thru friends, I found this more insulting than anything.
> 
> I think half the reason divorces run so long is because the legal system knows full well the affairs will end long before the divorce will so drag it out for the alimony.


*And even better luck in finding enough state legislators in proceeding to extricate all of those old, useless, existing "archaic adultery statutes" out of their state lawbooks!*


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

Forest said:


> *Yeah, its fine to be an inconsiderate, obnoxious, snake worshipping freak that lives without regard or mercy toward others.*


You just described me. Although I never worshiped a snake. 

Those who got a problem with who I'm can get in line.


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## Riley_Z (Jan 29, 2014)

honcho said:


> Adultery is still a crime in many states, good luck ever finding a DA who would actually attempt to prosecute. Our court system would have to devote an entire court division just for trials. Of course divorce court would be much less busy. The OM in my mess has now been a part of seven divorces that I know of over the years, not including 2 of his own.
> 
> Does he owe me anything, yes but the only meaningful thing he could have done would have been to keep her around long enough for me to get the divorce done so I would be out alimony. That would have been a nice gesture. The clown has tried to apologize to me thru friends, I found this more insulting than anything.
> 
> I think half the reason divorces run so long is because the legal system knows full well the affairs will end long before the divorce will so drag it out for the alimony.


Well, I mean you should be able to call the police if someone's trespassing into your marriage.

If I find someone in my home that doesn't' belong there, I can call the police and have him removed.

If I find someone in my marriage that doesn't' belong there, I can't call anyone to have them removed!

Yes I know I know, the husband invites them into the marriage.

To my mind, given that the marital contract is just _two _people, then anyone _else _is a trespasser and it should only take _one _person to make a complaint.

Heck I can setup a joint bank account that requires _both _of our signatures to withdraw funds from it. The marriage ought to work the same way.

If a third person enters the marriage, then _either _member of that marriage should be sufficient grounds to call the cops and have them removed. We should not need _both _members of the marriage on the same page to protect it, particularly if there are children involved.


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## adriana (Dec 21, 2013)

Riley_Z said:


> It would be nice if infidelity were an actual crime.



This is a terrible idea.... absolutely terrible!


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## Riley_Z (Jan 29, 2014)

adriana said:


> This is a terrible idea.... absolutely terrible!


Because things are so great now?

Hardly.


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

MattMatt said:


> Some on TAM argue that exposure of or revenge on the POSOM/W is wrong, because they owe you nothing, it is all down to your WS. It's all the fault of your WS.
> 
> That is not true.
> 
> ...


Disagree not with that analogy, but you are assuming a certain type of affair in your scenario.

If the Cheater used a escort, sugar baby, random hook up or just flat out was living a double life well obviously the OW/OM has no clue!!


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## Riley_Z (Jan 29, 2014)

OhGeesh said:


> Disagree not with that analogy, but you are assuming a certain type of affair in your scenario.
> 
> If the Cheater used a escort, sugar baby, random hook up or just flat out was living a double life well obviously the OW/OM has no clue!!


You think escort's don't know the person they are out with his married? lol

MOST third parties DO know the person they are with is married. And of those that dont', MANY suspect.

There ARE clues and there is odd behavior.

It does not take Sherlock Holmes to figure out someone's married. It just takes someone with enough self respect to investigate who they are screwing.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

OhGeesh said:


> Disagree not with that analogy, but you are assuming a certain type of affair in your scenario.
> 
> If the Cheater used a escort, sugar baby, random hook up or just flat out was living a double life well obviously the OW/OM has no clue!!


I think if the spouse seeks out a 'pro' that's a bit different than a hookup or regular fling, friend with benefits etc.. You're not going to out them to the other spouse, beat up the pimp.. So I would think this OM/OW scenario assumes a certain type of affair.

..and yes, they do have a clue in most cases, they can figure it out.. the tan line where the wedding ring was before they took it off for example.


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