# Wife doesn't feel like a woman?



## frustr8dhubby

Hello ladies,

My wife and I had a fairly long "talk" the other night about our sex life. I won't bore you with the details of the talk but one thing she said stands out in my mind. She actually said she feels like a robot and doesn't feel like a woman, ever. I was flabbergasted.

I know several of you are stay at home moms as is she and I know that can be very difficult and at times very boring and monotonous. Could it be that? Is it me? She says she doesn't know why she feels that way. Do or have any of you felt this way?

(If it matters, this started from our talk because she has no desire for sex, period. Not with me, nor anyone.)


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## CallaLily

How old are your kids? Did she feel this way after they were born? Have you pulled out all the stops to make her feel loved and special? Even helped with the kids and chores around the house to take some strain off of her?


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## frustr8dhubby

They are now 7, 9, and 11. I don't know, she never said this before. As I said this was totally new to me. I try to make her feel special and appreciated but maybe I don't do enough? Yes, I help around the house, though I'm sure it's never enough. 

Part of that issue is her though. She is an admitted control freak. She likes everything in the house and with the kids to be done her way.


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## CallaLily

Do you notice anything else other than her saying she doesn't feel like a woman? I know after kids sometimes this can be a normal thing, maybe due to hormones etc, but it still needs to be addressed. Maybe you should suggest her seeing her doctor and ruling out anything medical or psychological.


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## MEM2020

F8,
That conversation was a huge positive step for your marriage. I am curious - what is her lifestyle like?
- exercise
- eating habits
- sleep pattern - does she get enough sleep

My experience is that an "underutilized" body sometimes goes to "sleep" goes "numb". 

Picture that "you" are asleep - how do you like to be woken up? Flashlight in the eyes and a whistle? Or a soft slow caress of your back?

That said - if it were me I would start with the gentle "body wakeup approach" which goes something like this. "I miss your touch and miss touching you. Forget sex for the moment - lets have a no-sex high touch night". I will give you a massage and I want you to give me one. Not only do I not expect sex - we are not going to have sex. This is touch/affection - which means a lot to me. 

And no offense intended here but if you have never played "better one / better two" massaging her - you might not know what she likes the best. Just like the optometrist converges on your prescription - you do something and say better one? and then do a small variant - harder/softer - faster / slower, different touch pattern - you name it - and ask "better 2" and after an hour of that you should be able to "melt" her tension away. And "remember" what she likes because you want this to become a habit she looks forward to. For instance my W likes a massage/back scratch combo. 

At some future point you can play "better one/better two" during foreplay or even sex. Great game. Some people are very reluctant to "ask" you to do it differently. But it is rare that anyone is uncomfortable simply saying which of two touch patters they like better. 

This allows her to fully enjoy the touch - you touching her and her touching you. She won't be anxiously thinking - oh no - he is going to get hard and I am going to either have to do something I don't want or reject him. 

As for you - maybe you need to self pleasure before hand so you don't get frustrated. And that really is ok. If she "surprises" you and initiates you can always tell her - tonight is just foreplay. We can play again tomorrow - and you can enjoy feeling desire for a day. If you still feel desire tomorrow maybe we can play then. A light touch here is important. If she feels the slightest show of interest on her part means you will aggressively pursue her - you may be killing her desire before it even gets to build. Let her flirt with you - be playful back. 

That said do NOT discount the level of "distraction" kids can create in a womans head. So some level of consistent exercise is important. Get her to go for a brisk walk/bike ride with you at night. Or even better the gym and a treadmill. Exercise helps quiet the demons of anxiety and it also tends to boost desire. 

At some point you will want to learn how to gradually take your W from sexually neutral to warm to hot in a way that feels good for her. 

One last thing about the massage - the first few rounds maybe should just be a back massage. But after that - if she still needs more time to "gradually" get there - open it up to a full body massage. You can stay in a "no sex" mode and do a full body massage - in both directions. And that is a type of foreplay. And that game should be played with minimal clothing. And she may want low lighting/no light for that if she is self conscious about her body. Don't argue the point. The goal is to get her to feel good/great about touch and you can't do that if she is lying there tense about how she "looks". 

But ALL of this needs to build on the foundation she just laid. And that foundation is trust, respect and communication. Because she showed all 3 by opening up to you. If you can do the same - meaning you let her know that you are grateful for her honesty, that you do NOT want her to force herself to have sex. And that she needs to trust you that when you say you want a high touch/no sex night you really mean that. 

My W's desire disappeared for 6 months or more last year. It recently came roaring back. During that time we had plenty of massage nights that were clearly non-sexual. I didn't "act" frustrated with her because I was truly "not" frustrated. She wasn't feeling desire. Lots of reasons for that - some me - some her not exercising - some her being tense/depressed about kids/work. But the "touch" connection kept "us" connected even when sex was much less frequent than normal. 

That said - this has "got" to be mutual. If you turn this into you doing most/all the work massaging her, you are sending her a very bad message - which is that you don't expect her to make much "effort" to please you. And she will lose respect for you and your needs if you do that. 

If she is not willing to make the effort to massage you - that is a very very different and much more serious problem. Because that is not about lust, rather it is about a desire to be a good partner. And while you should not be combative in addressing that - you sure should ask some very direct questions. 

This is just me but - massage night - sex night - not sure which kind of night - I always take a shower just before bed and some to bed super clean with the lightest hint of her favorite aftershave and just brushed teeth. This is just part of the "package". It is all about her having a great experience regardless of whether we are having sex or not. 





frustr8dhubby said:


> Hello ladies,
> 
> My wife and I had a fairly long "talk" the other night about our sex life. I won't bore you with the details of the talk but one thing she said stands out in my mind. She actually said she feels like a robot and doesn't feel like a woman, ever. I was flabbergasted.
> 
> I know several of you are stay at home moms as is she and I know that can be very difficult and at times very boring and monotonous. Could it be that? Is it me? She says she doesn't know why she feels that way. Do or have any of you felt this way?
> 
> (If it matters, this started from our talk because she has no desire for sex, period. Not with me, nor anyone.)


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## frustr8dhubby

Notice like what, she doesn't want to touch me and doesn't want me to touch her? 

You would have to see my other posts. She just recently had hormones checked, though only by a GP not a Gyno.


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## CallaLily

Sorry, I was just meaning have you noticed anything else in her behavior as far as not in the bedroom. Obviusly she doesn't feel like a woman or very interested in sex, but how does she act outside of the bedroom?


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## MEM2020

Is she avoiding touch because she doesn't not want it to lead to sex? Or is she avoiding touch because she does not like you touching her/she does not like to touch you? 

Because if she is at the place of "I don't want physical contact" full stop - I would ask myself two questions:
- Am I around too much? or
- Is she infatuated with someone else?

Raw "touch" avoidance is often a symptom of someone feeling emotionally crowded. 



frustr8dhubby said:


> Notice like what, she doesn't want to touch me and doesn't want me to touch her?
> 
> You would have to see my other posts. She just recently had hormones checked, though only by a GP not a Gyno.


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## frustr8dhubby

She is high-strung (not necessarily in a negative way) but that is just generally her. She acts and says she is absolutely content.

MEM,

Well I offer foot massages, back massages etc and she doesn't even want those. Though to your point she probably thinks that has to lead to sex. I will try it and tell her there is to be no sex. Of course timing could be fun since the kids don't go to bed until 9ish and she is usually asleep about 10-15 minutes later.


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## frustr8dhubby

MEM,

I honestly don't believe she is infatuated with anyone else. I know it isn't impossible but I would be HIGHLY surprised.

How would you define "around too much"? I only work from home about 1 or 2 days a week and with the girls schedule we are hardly together on the weekends either. Now, with that being said, I am way too touchy/gropy because my "love language" is physical.


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## MEM2020

Uh oh - groping. Have you ever seen my post about "groping" and my first year of marriage?





frustr8dhubby said:


> MEM,
> 
> I honestly don't believe she is infatuated with anyone else. I know it isn't impossible but I would be HIGHLY surprised.
> 
> How would you define "around too much"? I only work from home about 1 or 2 days a week and with the girls schedule we are hardly together on the weekends either. Now, with that being said, I am way too touchy/gropy because my "love language" is physical.


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## Deejo

This may get long. I'll try to avoid that.

In far, far, too many relationships ... like mine, like yours, there is the concept of the runner and the pursuer. 

My wife, your wife - runners. Avoidant. Dismissive. Distinctly ... avoidant of intimacy regardless of whether it is hand-holding or intercourse. What she knows, the dynamic that she has become entrenched in and comfortable with, is to prioritize NOT meeting your needs.

Me, you - pursuers. Trying to figure out the magic bullet of how loving we need to be, flowers, cards, dinners, romance, helping with kids, keeping up the house, cooking, cleaning ... desperately trying to find what will illicit DESIRE and intimacy with the women we love. However, the harder you try ... the more she pulls away.

The more you pursue ... the more she runs.

In short, you need to stop pursuing. You need to break that dynamic. You need to completely rethink what you believe is the 'right' thing to do to bring your wife closer - because odds are, it will have the opposite effect.

We echo this on the men's side all the time. Pull back. Focus on meeting your own needs. Be selfish. Be less available. Be less willing to step in and 'help'. This does not mean be disrespectful or a pr!ck.

Stop. Stop trying to change your wife. Change you. Break the current dynamic of runner and pursuer. Changing the focus from finding new ways for her to reject you, to finding ways to fulfill yourself. It is very likely that she will notice your LACK of attention and may even grouse about it. Nobody likes change when it touches them in ways they don't like.


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## frustr8dhubby

No where is it. And I already know that is a problem..


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## Trenton

Does she have anything that is her and hers alone, that is completely separate from you and the kids or is her entire life invested in taking care of the family? I am high strung and a control freak as well and have children of similar ages (5, 10, 14) and am also a stay at home Mom but I've always held on to my interests which renews my own sense of self. I think this helps me to keep things balanced within myself. I personally have felt that since my children are getting older I can exit out of Mom Mode more often and it's really exciting. 

Also, if you have the ability and a baby sitter, I would truly recommend planning a vacation with her for a weekend. We recently went to Puerto Rico for four days and it was so weird but so great. In this way, the focus isn't on sex specifically but in reconnecting beyond your roles as parents.


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## Deejo

frustr8dhubby said:


> MEM,
> 
> Now, with that being said, I am way too touchy/gropy because my "love language" is physical.


Bingo. You now have a starting point. Keep your hands, and lips to yourself. 

You constantly initiating touch, is leaving her feeling smothered and objectified sexually. Although she may not state it outright, she likely perceives you as needy. Do I think that's your goal? No. But it doesn't matter what we think.


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## lime

I believe it.

I am young and don't have kids, so I've never really felt that way. I do have days though where I feel awful, especially if I haven't been taking care of myself...Recently, for example, I haven't been sleeping, I've been eating junk food b/c I've been skipping meals, I haven't had any time to myself, and I feel bad as a result.

This is not your responsibility to make her feel better about herself. She has to get there on her own. You can help her by being more of a man to create a contrast that she will notice between you and her own femininity...if that makes sense? Sometimes feeling like a woman means dressing up, putting on makeup, exercising, whatever. She needs to take initiative on her own to do those things...You need to incentivize her, but don't just do whatever she asks; that will make her feel like a dictator, not a woman.

Ugh. I'm sick of hearing that chores are stressful. They're not. Don't let her bully you into doing things her way (the "right" way) and don't let her whine all the time about how stressful it is to do the laundry or whatever. Your way of unloading the dishes is RIGHT. For YOU. You don't have to let her be so controlling about the house work because it makes her feel (consciously or subconsciously) like SHE is the one in charge and that you are her servant. You aren't. So take initiative and don't ask her if you can help...Don't even "help." Just DO things.


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## frustr8dhubby

Deejo,

I know I have been reading all of the "man up" threads. But honestly, most of my needs are met. I really have no complaints other than the lack of sex. I go do things with my guy friends when I can, etc.

It is kind of hard to play that card when in all honesty there aren't too many other places I'd rather be than home with my wife and kids.


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## WhereAmI

I'm wondering if this has nothing to do with you at all. What does she do for herself? I felt like this and it was because I was putting everyone else before me. 

What do you call her? My husband has been calling me Mom since our first was born. One day he called me by my name and I was shocked at the feeling it gave me. It's nice to be acknowledged as a person outside of motherhood. It's something small, but nice.


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## Trenton

lime said:


> Ugh. I'm sick of hearing that chores are stressful. They're not. Don't let her bully you into doing things her way (the "right" way) and don't let her whine all the time about how stressful it is to do the laundry or whatever. Your way of unloading the dishes is RIGHT. For YOU. You don't have to let her be so controlling about the house work because it makes her feel (consciously or subconsciously) like SHE is the one in charge and that you are her servant. You aren't. So take initiative and don't ask her if you can help...Don't even "help." Just DO things.


It's not the chores alone, it's the non stop work that is required between juggling three children, chores and life in general as a Mom and as a Mom who chooses to do this full time for the sake of her family. I recognize you don't have children but imagine mopping a floor, let's say three times a week, and afterwards having three children trudge through the floor. Then you say, "No, please take your shoes off in the mudroom before you enter the kitchen. I just mopped the floor."

Since you don't have kids, you also don't recognize that you will say this at least 25 times before they begin to learn the expected behavior. Repeat this scenario with every other scenario and quickly you'll see that it's far more than just chores and being a Dictator or at least I hope you do.


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## Deejo

frustr8dhubby said:


> Deejo,
> 
> It is kind of hard to play that card when in all honesty there aren't too many other places I'd rather be than home with my wife and kids.


What you fail to acknowledge is THAT is what contributes to the problem.

I was the same way. You are around. And when you're around, you want to be close. Makes perfect sense. You sound like most women's dream come true. A guy that has a primary DESIRE to spend time with his family.

But let's bottom line this. Your wife isn't ATTRACTED to you. She doesn't desire you. So you have two options. Continue behaving in a manner that reduces her desire, or take steps, even if uncomfortable and out of your wheel-house, to create desire.

What you're doing ain't working - and it ain't gonna work. Trust me. I'm not accusing you or admonishing you, I'm telling you from first-hand experience.

Your wife can tell you that she feels unfulfilled, like a 'robot', like she is sleep-walking through her life.

If you were to disappear off the face of the Earth tomorrow, odds are your wife will eventually find someone else that creates that 'spark' and she won't feel any of those lackluster things that she has described to you. Might as well be you that recreates those feelings if possible, don't you think?

And I agree with the other posters, this is NOT a problem you created. It's hers. But ... currently you are contributing to the problem. You are enabling her to blame-shift to you. For as long as she can focus on avoiding you, she doesn't have to take a look at herself. Make sense?


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## Trenton

frustr8dhubby said:


> Deejo,
> 
> I know I have been reading all of the "man up" threads. But honestly, most of my needs are met. I really have no complaints other than the lack of sex. I go do things with my guy friends when I can, etc.
> 
> It is kind of hard to play that card when in all honesty there aren't too many other places I'd rather be than home with my wife and kids.


Does your wife say she loves you and is in love with you but just doesn't feel any desire for sex?


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## frustr8dhubby

Well she has recently taken a couple of small coaching jobs for herself. So that may be helping. She eats fairly well but we could both definitely benefit from more exercise. But yes, she definitely puts everyone else before her and I tell her to stop that.

lime,
Oh don't worry I do it MY way or NO way.  In fact she actually said in our discussion that I kind of balance her out because she is so strung and I am the mellow one. But to your point I probably should just DO things more on my own accord.

WhereAmI,
I mostly call her by her nickname unless it is in reference to the kids, then I call her mommy.

Deejo,
I've known that is an issue for a long time. And sometimes I go through periods of not touching her but then it just results in me getting no touch at all so I tend to revert back to groping.


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## Trenton

<off topic> Deejo, just realized you typed "my wife" in your first post in this thread. Are you feeling that you wish you could reconcile with her? Your recent posts seem very nostalgic and focused on that relationship. I'm sure this is normal but just wanted to make sure things were OK. Noticed your signature change as well, very nice phrase from a beautiful song. </off topic>


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## Deejo

WhereAmI said:


> What do you call her? My husband has been calling me Mom since our first was born. One day he called me by my name and I was shocked at the feeling it gave me. It's nice to be acknowledged as a person outside of motherhood. It's something small, but nice.


I have read in numerous articles that this is always an extremely bad idea. Never, ever, when speaking to one another, refer to your partner as 'Mom' or 'Dad'. You are defining your relationship according to your roles. It is an intimacy killer.


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## nice777guy

What kind of "coaching jobs"?


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## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> I have read in numerous articles that this is always an extremely bad idea. Never, ever, when speaking to one another, refer to your partner as 'Mom' or 'Dad'. You are defining your relationship according to your roles. It is an intimacy killer.


Its Ok to call a man "Daddy" from time to time...as long as the kids aren't around!


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## frustr8dhubby

Trenton,
Yes and yes.

Deejo,
I understand you I just don't know how to go about it. Maybe that sounds whiny but honestly I don't know what I would do with myself to make myself unavailable.


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## frustr8dhubby

nice777guy,
Coaching gymnastics for young kids. Before that she also used to volunteer at the girls school which she really seemed to enjoy as well.


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## Trenton

I think if she says she loves you and is in love with you, I'd believe her and say you have one area in your relationship that needs work which is really not that bad.

I know I should already know these answers from reading your other posts most likely so forgive my ignorance in advance.

How long as she been out of sex mode?

Do you two do things alone?

Are you romantic? Do you surprise her with gifts/flowers and excite the woman inside of her?


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## frustr8dhubby

Trenton,
5+ years.

No, not as much as we need to. In fact, rarely.

Not as much as I used to. That is mainly financial. Now she yells at me if I buy her flowers and stuff for no reason.


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## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Are you romantic? Do you surprise her with gifts/flowers and excite the woman inside of her?


I fully acknowledge that this is common, and positive recommendation made by women to men.

But ...

In the kinds of circumstances we're talking about? Sexual rejection and avoidance? They are absolute poison. If you are doing these things stop. They are viewed as contrivances to get into her pants. They are fuel for further avoidance.


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## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> I think if she says she loves you and is in love with you, I'd believe her and say you have one area in your relationship that needs work which is really not that bad.


Isn't a poor sex life usually just a by-product of other problems that aren't being addressed?

And also, not having sex with the only person its acceptable to have sex with is REALLY pretty bad...


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## frustr8dhubby

*venting* I have to agree with southbound a little here. This is all just ridiculous. I read and hear about how all of these men treat their wives/gf, etc. They are verbally abusive, physically abusive, or just downright a$$holes and yet their women still want them. Those of us that want to do the right things or be "nice guys" are too safe/boring/whatever the f*k. And you women wonder why we think you are illogical sometimes???  *done venting*


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## MEM2020

I will summarize: She told me she "hated" being groped. I 100 percent stopped immediately. 

And I learned how much she "did" like a warm / comforting / affectionate touch. When I come up behind her at the sink and gently wrap my arms around her - soft contact from calf to head she loves that. Leans back into me. But that is a purely affectionate act. There is no sexual content to it - ever. 

She feels loved and safe and protected. 

That said it is also true I don't chase/crowd her. If I get any sense she is feeling the need to be alone - I leave her alone. 

You might "start" by not initiating any contact at all for a while. Be nice, fun, playful. Be upbeat. But stop touching her. And in fact - let her choose how much time you two spend together. Play with the kids, go to the gym, work out in another room. But other than the time you "have" to spend together - like dinner. Let her initiate:
- spending time together - even watching tv
- all touch

I am not picking on you. You crowd her because you feel lonely. But the best way to solve this is to be self sufficient and let her feel comfortable - not smothered. 

But that will only work if you are - for lack of a better phrase - "good company/fun to be around". If you are she will come to you. But until you fix this "touch aversion" problem you should not suggest a massage. 




frustr8dhubby said:


> No where is it. And I already know that is a problem..


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## frustr8dhubby

nice777guy,

I actually tried to make that point in our discussion the other night and she just doesn't see it that way. She thinks everything is great and does not understand how I could even remotely be considering the thought of divorce. If she has absolutely no desire for ME then something else has to be wrong, at least in my simple mind.


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## Trenton

frustr8dhubby said:


> Trenton,
> 5+ years.
> 
> No, not as much as we need to. In fact, rarely.
> 
> Not as much as I used to. That is mainly financial. Now she yells at me if I buy her flowers and stuff for no reason.


That is a long time. 

We are not in great financial shape here either but I can tell you some things my husband does to make sure he still can surprise me. 

Alone time = Best Deals and Discounts on the Best Local Restaurants – Save Money on Food with Restaurant.com

We go to a different restaurant we've never tried before and they offer $25 off on that site, it's like a gift cert you print out and only costs you $2 - $7. We end up spending about $25 with tip included and get to go on the adventure of a new restaurant.

Our recent trip to Puerto Rico in October was funded by him selling his computers on Ebay & Craigslist. He had tons of them. If you have items, any items that aren't getting use maybe you could get surplus funds from these and use these funds specifically to spoil your wife. You can tell her that it hasn't affected your budget and tell her...She has to accept it because she is worth it and deserves it. Our trip cost under $1k to Puerto Rico and we've never missed the computers. You don't have to surprise her with a trip but if you sold smaller amounts you could get her a beautiful piece of jewelry or have funds to purchase small gifts and surprise her with them.

Lastly, think of doing things for her that are free. These include mixed CD's/MP3's of songs that she loves or songs that remind you two of your relationship, writing her small notes of appreciation to remind her how much she means to you, setting up a sitter so that you and her can go for coffee and share a slice of cake, etc.

These are just ideas. They are the things my husband does that remind me not only that he loves and appreciates me but that I love and appreciate him as well.


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## Trenton

Deejo said:


> I fully acknowledge that this is common, and positive recommendation made by women to men.
> 
> But ...
> 
> In the kinds of circumstances we're talking about? Sexual rejection and avoidance? They are absolute poison. If you are doing these things stop. They are viewed as contrivances to get into her pants. They are fuel for further avoidance.


For me, I think a lot of my connection is fostered by the attention he gives me as a woman. I truly, truly do. If he at any point in our relationship stopped doing these things I would think that would lead to a loss of a physical/emotional/mental connection between him and I.


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## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> Isn't a poor sex life usually just a by-product of other problems that aren't being addressed?
> 
> And also, not having sex with the only person its acceptable to have sex with is REALLY pretty bad...


Perhaps, in many cases but in this case she is still in love with her husband, doing all the things she needs to do as a parent/wife except for sex. I'm thinking she is so stuck in Mom Mode that she's lost the connection women need to feel desire. I could be wrong. It happens more often than I'd like.


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## nice777guy

MEM11363 said:


> I will summarize: She told me she "hated" being groped. I 100 percent stopped immediately.
> 
> And I learned how much she "did" like a warm / comforting / affectionate touch. When I come up behind her at the sink and gently wrap my arms around her - soft contact from calf to head she loves that. Leans back into me. But that is a purely affectionate act. There is no sexual content to it - ever.
> 
> She feels loved and safe and protected.
> 
> That said it is also true I don't chase/crowd her. If I get any sense she is feeling the need to be alone - I leave her alone.
> 
> You might "start" by not initiating any contact at all for a while. Be nice, fun, playful. Be upbeat. But stop touching her. And in fact - let her choose how much time you two spend together. Play with the kids, go to the gym, work out in another room. But other than the time you "have" to spend together - like dinner. Let her initiate:
> - spending time together - even watching tv
> - all touch
> 
> I am not picking on you. You crowd her because you feel lonely. But the best way to solve this is to be self sufficient and let her feel comfortable - not smothered.
> 
> But that will only work if you are - for lack of a better phrase - "good company/fun to be around". If you are she will come to you. But until you fix this "touch aversion" problem you should not suggest a massage.


Take some time to do some things that you want to do.

Give her a chance to actually miss you a little bit.

Try to be a little mysterious. Don't do anything wrong or crazy - but if you normally come home and talk about your day, then stop. If you always come home on time, take the long way home and don't offer an explanation unless asked directly. Go to the gym or a bookstore some time when you would normally be hanging out at home - maybe one night after the kids are tucked into bed.

Not saying be sneaky or devious - just a little less predictable and obvious.


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## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> Take some time to do some things that you want to do.
> 
> Give her a chance to actually miss you a little bit.
> 
> Try to be a little mysterious. Don't do anything wrong or crazy - but if you normally come home and talk about your day, then stop. If you always come home on time, take the long way home and don't offer an explanation unless asked directly. Go to the gym or a bookstore some time when you would normally be hanging out at home - maybe one night after the kids are tucked into bed.
> 
> Not saying be sneaky or devious - just a little less predictable and obvious.


You know, honestly/honestly/honestly, this would just piss me off.


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## Deejo

Trenton said:


> You know, honestly/honestly/honestly, this would just piss me off.


Which is the point if YOU were pissing him off. It's the dynamic shift that I refer to.

But keep in perspective, you do not demonstrate the core issue we are referring to with regard to your husband. Sexual desire. You DO desire him. You want him around. You have acknowledged that one of your core issues is when he isn't available as a result of work. I agree, this wouldn't work for you. Thankfully, it isn't applicable. That certainly isn't meant as dismissive. I simply would never suggest taking these steps to someone telling me that their sex life was fulfilling but their wife wanted more quality time with them.

Your perspective is still important for frustr8dhubby's consideration. I'm projecting my circumstances, and the circumstances of many, many others that shared common factors.


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## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> You know, honestly/honestly/honestly, this would just piss me off.


I would rather my wife be a bit pissed at me than just be totally cold or indifferent to me.

And please keep in mind - I'm NOT saying to lie to her, or start drinking with the guys every night or going to strip clubs. Just be less obvious. Hell - start locking the bathroom door when you take a $hit. Subscribe to a new magazine. Shut the door when you go into a different room.

I'm also NOT saying to act mysterious while on the phone, buy new sexy tiger striped underwear, or try some new expensive cologne. DON'T stop saying "I love you", DO CONTINUE to kiss her on the cheek when you come home or before you go to bed. Just alter your routine a bit.

Trenton - I'm guessing that your husband saying he no longer cares about having sex with you would also piss you off as well.


----------



## Trenton

Yes, well, if I were the woman in question and I were hard working and a beautiful wife and mother whose only fault was a lack of sexual desire, I would also be angry. That's what I was saying.

In this same token, if my husband were to say that he no longer had an interest in sex, I would also be angry.


----------



## major misfit

lime said:


> Ugh. I'm sick of hearing that chores are stressful. They're not. Don't let her bully you into doing things her way (the "right" way) and don't let her whine all the time about how stressful it is to do the laundry or whatever. Your way of unloading the dishes is RIGHT. For YOU. You don't have to let her be so controlling about the house work because it makes her feel (consciously or subconsciously) like SHE is the one in charge and that you are her servant. You aren't. So take initiative and don't ask her if you can help...Don't even "help." Just DO things.


If you ever saw the Mt. Saint Helens that is my laundry every weekend, you would be stressed. You're going to have to take my word on that, though. And it's just for 3 people. I'm always wondering where the hell it all comes from. 
If you ever saw what happens to my floors when 3 boys have been running in and out of the house and they've had snacks...and they've ALL used the bathroom...and they've been "looking for something else to play with"...and they've played every video game owned...you'd be stressed. If you wouldn't, then come to my house and whip this stuff into shape for me! 
Honestly, sometimes I wonder if some kind of switch gets flipped when we have kids. And just taking care of *everything* day in, day out...every day...just gets to us sometimes. Wears us down. The feeling of responsibility, even. Worry. Even if we're worrying whether of not the kids are going to grow up to be ax murderers, lol. If she's "high strung", it's likely that she's worrying about *everything*. Our minds and our bodies are closely connected. 
When I was putting one foot in front of the other when my kids were younger in an effort to just get through the day without losing my mind, I didn't feel like a woman anymore either. I felt like I was being pulled and tugged in so many directions by so many different people, that I felt like some kind of robot just going through the motions. And I don't know what would have pulled me out of that, since nothing was ever said, and I just kept going through the motions. 
All I know is when I was really happy, and felt like more of a person instead of everyone else's "robot", I felt more desire. Just my perspective.


----------



## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> Yes, well, if I were the woman in question and I were hard working and a beautiful wife and mother *whose only fault *was a lack of sexual desire, I would also be angry. That's what I was saying.


So what do you do then if you are the OP?

Does there come a point - in all seriousness - where you start asking for some "time alone" in your own bedroom? Buy a toy? Start renting movies to watch alone? 

I keep picturing Kevin Spacey in American Beauty - accidentally waking his wife up in the middle of the night while he's jerking off. 



> "This hasn't been a marriage, for years, but you were happy as long as I kept my mouth shut. Well guess what, I've changed! And the new me whacks off when he feels horny, because you're obviously not gonna help me out in that department!"


Love that movie...

Did she actually say that the chores and grind of being a SAHM were what made her feel like a robot? Is it the stress or the monotony? The idea that she should be doing more with her life? Or the isolation that you feel when most of your conversations are with children?

Did she say WHY she feels like a robot?


----------



## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> So what do you do then if you are the OP?
> 
> Does there come a point - in all seriousness - where you start asking for some "time alone" in your own bedroom? Buy a toy? Start renting movies to watch alone?
> 
> I keep picturing Kevin Spacey in American Beauty - accidentally waking his wife up in the middle of the night while he's jerking off.
> 
> 
> 
> Love that movie...
> 
> Did she actually say that the chores and grind of being a SAHM were what made her feel like a robot? Is it the stress or the monotony? The idea that she should be doing more with her life? Or the isolation that you feel when most of your conversations are with children?
> 
> Did she say WHY she feels like a robot?


I detailed what I think he should do and why already. Scroll up and read things you can do for little money that will make her feel appreciated and romantic outside of being a Mom. He may not want to do it because he feels resentment but I believe making a woman feel awesome is more likely to get her to want to treat you awesome and also foster a sense of security that will make the OP more attractive in a sensual sense.

She most likely doesn't know why she feels like she doesn't want to have sex. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt here and say she most likely just doesn't and because of this all of our advice here is guess work.

What would I do if I were the OP? I have no flipping idea. I'd be very, very, very upset and frustrated as well as lonely.


----------



## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> I detailed what I think he should do and why already. Scroll up and read things you can do for little money that will make her feel appreciated and romantic outside of being a Mom. He may not want to do it because he feels resentment but I believe making a woman feel awesome is more likely to get her to want to treat you awesome and also foster a sense of security that will make the OP more attractive in a sensual sense.
> 
> She most likely doesn't know why she feels like she doesn't want to have sex. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt here and say she most likely just doesn't and because of this all of our advice here is guess work.
> 
> What would I do if I were the OP? I have no flipping idea. I'd be very, very, very upset and frustrated as well as lonely.


I guess I'm going off the same type of assumption as MEM and Deejo - that she might feel a bit smothered. And it sounds like he's already doing enough, so I tend to favor pulling back a bit rather than trying to sweep her off her feet.

But then again, maybe he's just not doing enough of the right things.

And I agree that she very well may not know why she feels this way.


----------



## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> I guess I'm going off the same type of assumption as MEM and Deejo - that she might feel a bit smothered. And it sounds like he's already doing enough, so I tend to favor pulling back a bit rather than trying to sweep her off her feet.
> 
> But then again, maybe he's just not doing enough of the right things.
> 
> And I agree that she very well may not know why she feels this way.


Yes, see, I'm thinking he's smothering her but in her mom mode which is just confirming to her that her mom role is the only one that counts. So, lay off the mom mode confirmation and begin confirming her as a woman. Anyway, that's my advice.


----------



## frustr8dhubby

Yes, at least she tells me that she doesn't know why she feels this way.

Another thing is that I would have thought it would have gotten a little easier this year because finally all 3 kids are in school all day so she should have some more time for herself.

Trenton,
I am going to try your suggestions. Unfortunately it probably won't be for a couple of months. Our daughters are competitive gymnasts so we have meets the next 6 of 7 weekends.

I guess I will also try a little of MEM/Deejo/nice777guys' approaches but those are going to be a little tougher for me.


----------



## nice777guy

frustr8dhubby said:


> Yes, at least she tells me that she doesn't know why she feels this way.
> 
> Another thing is that I would have thought it would have gotten a little easier this year because finally all 3 kids are in school all day so she should have some more time for herself.
> 
> Trenton,
> I am going to try your suggestions. Unfortunately it probably won't be for a couple of months. Our daughters are competitive gymnasts so we have meets the next 6 of 7 weekends.
> 
> I guess I will also try a little of MEM/Deejo/nice777guys' approaches but those are going to be a little tougher for me.


I was going to say that I don't think it HAS to be an either or type of thing. You could create a little more distance on a daily basis, but also arrange a date night or send flowers, etc.,

Good luck!


----------



## frustr8dhubby

Aye, I meant BOTH.


----------



## major misfit

frustr8dhubby said:


> Yes, at least she tells me that she doesn't know why she feels this way.
> 
> Another thing is that I would have thought it would have gotten a little easier this year because finally all 3 kids are in school all day so she should have some more time for herself.
> 
> Trenton,
> I am going to try your suggestions. Unfortunately it probably won't be for a couple of months. Our daughters are competitive gymnasts so we have meets the next 6 of 7 weekends.
> 
> I guess I will also try a little of MEM/Deejo/nice777guys' approaches but those are going to be a little tougher for me.



Having the kids in school all day doesn't relieve all the stress, or break the monotony. 
When someone mentioned sweeping her off her feet, that scene in "Officer and a Gentleman" came to mind...when he went into the factory and literally picked her up and carried her away. Maybe you need to take the kids to grandmas, book a hotel room, and literally sweep her off her feet! What scares me is I actually mean that, lol....


----------



## frustr8dhubby

I have been thinking alot about doing something like that. However, I fear at this point that she will think any type of "get away" will just be me looking to get laid...

And hey, who worries about the stress and monotony of MY job? And I don't get to sit and watch General Hospital, Oprah and talk on Facebook!  ( Yes, I am only kidding, I could NOT do her job!)


----------



## MEM2020

In a sexually starved marriage romantic gestures: flowers, getaways, etc. are correctly perceived as requests for sex. They absolutely have the opposite of the desire impact. 

In a sexually healthy marriage they are correctly perceived as the kind act of a loving partner. 

In this marriage - a wife with 3 needy (all kids are needy - I am not picking on them - just describing them) kids has a husband groping/touching her which is his non-verbal, and somewhat aggressive way of saying "I NEED you". 

My guess is that she feels the deadly duo:
- Irritated and smothered by his lack of self control and his unwanted attention.
- TOTALLY secure in the knowledge that he is so smitten he won't leave/have an affair

The ONLY happy endings I ever read to this type situation occur when the man becomes:
- Less available AND
- More attractive (this could be behavioral changes, physical or both)

He lets his W fall back in love with him and chase HIM. But this requires strong self control. If he attacks her the first time she bats her eyes at him - he is lost. If he reverts to prior pattern the first time she complains that he wasn't home when she needed something - he is lost. 

I imagine many of these guys who are able to pull this off likely do so by consoling themselves with the fact that in a very real sense their marriage is already over. And that they have nothing to lose by doing all the things that will help their next marriage succeed. 

I will say that if the OP cannot control his destructive physical behavior - groping - smothering her with touch that she doesn't want. Nothing else matters. No amount of ANYTHING is going to overcome his lack of respect for HER boundaries.




frustr8dhubby said:


> I have been thinking alot about doing something like that. However, I fear at this point that she will think any type of "get away" will just be me looking to get laid...
> 
> And hey, who worries about the stress and monotony of MY job? And I don't get to sit and watch General Hospital, Oprah and talk on Facebook!  ( Yes, I am only kidding, I could NOT do her job!)


----------



## Hicks

Key to making your wife feel like a woman, is you acting like a man.
Children are grabby and needy. If your wife perceives that you are more of a child, are running around trying to please her, she will not feel like a woman. If she is not excited and stimulated she will not feel like a woman. If you are not confident and happy with your job and your life you will be unmanly to her and as a consequence she will not feel like a woman. She gave you very good feedback here.


----------



## Deejo

> I guess I will also try a little of MEM/Deejo/nice777guys' approaches but those are going to be a little tougher for me.


Which is what makes me suspect that too much attention is the problem in the first place. Pulling back can't be 'wrong'. By it's very nature you WILL get results. 

If she doesn't like it, she will engage you.

If she doesn't like _you_, she will be just fine with your absence.


----------



## Kobo

frustr8dhubby said:


> Yes, at least she tells me that she doesn't know why she feels this way.
> 
> Another thing is that I would have thought it would have gotten a little easier this year because finally all 3 kids are in school all day so she should have some more time for herself.
> 
> Trenton,
> I am going to try your suggestions. Unfortunately it probably won't be for a couple of months. Our daughters are competitive gymnasts so we have meets the next 6 of 7 weekends.
> 
> I guess I will also try a little of MEM/Deejo/nice777guys' approaches but those are going to be a little tougher for me.


One thing we did to lower stress in our relationship was shut down the kids activities for a while. We picked some back up after a few months (6). Multiple kids with multiple activities mean a lot less time for each other. Also the routine takes over and you stop living life. could be contributing to her feeling like a robot. Also, If I don't grope my wife she asks me whats wrong afetr a couple of days. It's usually stress from work. My wife likes to be groped and gropes back. It's not always a one size fits all. Look into what you used to do before kids/wife. Pick some of those activities back up. What is something you are skillful at? Do that more often. I'm betting she digged that skill when you got together and she'll dig it now.


----------



## frustr8dhubby

Kobo,
I can't think of anything I am particularly "skilled" at. And if I go two weeks without "groping" her she could care less.

Deejo,
Which leads to my question to you. If she doesn't miss me in that regard, is it just over? My personal belief is that she might miss me to talk to or get upset that I am not around to help as much but I honestly don't think she will "miss" me sexually. But maybe I'm just projecting here..


----------



## Deejo

I clipped this from the 'How About Them Apples" thread in the Men's Clubhouse:


> We also follow a script that is fundamentally flawed - primarily because it is the script that has been given to us by women, and we believed it.
> It tells guys to try harder. Say I love you more. Communicate. Be affectionate. Be accommodating. Be romantic. But if the dynamic is already broken, if desire has already bled out, then following this script is actually the kiss of death.


It's fine if she gets upset that you aren't around to help or to talk to. The concept of re-defining yourself as an individual is not about avoidance or payback against your spouse. It's for you ... not her.

You need to have 'something' that is important to who you are, outside of the scope of your spouse and family.

I recognize who you are, because a few years ago that was me. I cherished my family, made them my world. Had my spouse on a pedestal. Did she think I was a wonderful provider and father? Absolutely. Did she have any interest in me at all as a desirable and sexually intimate partner? Nope. My desire for sex in her eyes meant that she was objectified, and I was like a child screaming for a toy.

And that perspective is simply wrong. On every level.

Worse? I cultivated it. You are cultivating it. 

I'm going to provide you with the attitude that I took. You are of course free to disagree.

You asked me if she doesn't miss you as an intimate partner is your marriage "just over"?

My opinion is, yes. It is over. It isn't a marriage. It's a business arrangement. You are colleagues, not a husband and a wife. You are parents and providers, not individuals and lovers.

If you can make the leap that it's already over, then you have nothing to lose by changing what you are doing in an effort to see if you can rediscover what attracted her to you in the first place. What may become apparent, is that she NEVER was all that attracted to you - and that is something you should know.

I have a very simple saying:

If you want to save it, you need to be prepared to sacrifice it.


----------



## frustr8dhubby

I won't say I disagree with you, I just have to admit that I don't understand it. It seems sooo illogical to me. Hell if this is the case why not just go have an affair and really test the waters?


----------



## MEM2020

FH,
It is not just "stop" groping her. That is a drop dead requirement but it is just ending a "turn off". You are correct it will not create passion. Frankly she will just be relieved. 

What consistently "works" in these situations is:
1. stop doing the things that turn her off
2. cut way back on all the loving gestures:
- stop touching/hugging her entirely. Let her hug you. If she doesn't - and she won't initially - you need to accept that
- stop being the first one to say ILY - let her have enough space to say it to you. If you always say it first when you leave in the morning - switch to a sincere - "have a good day" in a friendly voice. If she says ILY - sure say it back but let her come to you
- don't "text" her/call her during the day if you currently do that. if she calls/texts you - take her calls - sorry I know this is going to be very hard for you but best to let at least some calls go to voicemail/and some text be unanswered for what will be an uncomfortable amount of time for both of you
3. Be home LESS
4. Be in the same room with her LESS
5. Make a conscious effort to be fun/playful when you are together - but without touch. Playful but not flirting - playful but not in a "loving" way - in a purely fun/mischevious way
6. STOP talking about how you feel - just stop it - if (at the moment) she cared about how YOU felt she would not be 100 percent rejecting you sexually and mostly rejecting even overtures for basic touch like a foot massage. You have shut down her "love" circuitry - you need to bring it back to life before you talk about how you feel at all

And you need to see this for what it is. It is called being emotionally independent. Because your current M.O. comes across to her as a constant and never ending repetition of the same question: "Do you love me"? And whether or not it is driven by insecurity, it is coming across that way to her. And one thing that is sure to make a female uneasy, unhappy and for certain averse to "mating" is a male who is projecting as insecure and needy. 

When she starts to see you as independent, in control of yourself and your emotions she "may" being to feel desire again. 

And unless she is very unusual she "is" going to challenge you and pick fights with you over this. She is going to start asking you what is wrong and pressuring you to revert to the broken but comfortable (for her) pattern you are currently in. 

And you need to stay the course with a mix of:
- "xyz - which will be some out of the house activity" is important to me (end of explanation - the fact that it is important to you is the beginning and end)
- I am fine - really I feel bad for you - somehow between me and the kids we have taken away that beautiful feeling you used to have of being a "woman". I hope for your sake that comes back some day. 
- If you want to come work out with me/go for a walk - let me know when you want to do that and I will make it a priority (don't let her jerk you around as you are walking out the door to the gym - that type last minute request is testing her level of control - that gets the smiling "I need more lead time than that, let me know a day ahead of time if you want to do something conflicts with my normal schedule"

But at some point she WILL be angry and will likely question your commitment to the marriage - and you need to prepare for that. And that means you need to decide in advance how you will react to that. Anger is healthy it means she still cares how you feel about her. Cares if you love her. 

There are lots of constructive ways to respond to that type comment. But they all require the stones to enforce YOUR boundaries without being a jerk about it. And without losing your nerve or your temper. 





frustr8dhubby said:


> Kobo,
> I can't think of anything I am particularly "skilled" at. And if I go two weeks without "groping" her she could care less.
> 
> Deejo,
> Which leads to my question to you. If she doesn't miss me in that regard, is it just over? My personal belief is that she might miss me to talk to or get upset that I am not around to help as much but I honestly don't think she will "miss" me sexually. But maybe I'm just projecting here..


----------



## Deejo

frustr8dhubby said:


> I won't say I disagree with you, I just have to admit that I don't understand it. It seems sooo illogical to me. Hell if this is the case why not just go have an affair and really test the waters?


That would be just fine ... as long as you make it clear to her, that's your intention. 

Felt illogical to me as well. But as MEM has pointed out, for you to continue doing the very things that you believe should turn her on - when quite clearly they turn her off, is equally illogical.

You think being loving, physically affectionate, accommodating, and expressive should be the very things that drive her wild for you ... and they aren't. Same thing happened with me. Same thing has been reported on these boards by dozens of guys.

So? Why would you want to keep doing things that push your wife away if your goal is to hang on to the marriage?

MEM is very good at giving you practical, detailed, steps to follow, concrete things that you should do, and things you shouldn't do. You have nothing to lose by evaluating, and implementing some of these suggestions.

They are far better options than pursuing an affair. Or, if you have already tapped out, then make that clear to her.


----------



## nice777guy

Having an affair would be the end. These other things just create some distance and hopefully help you become a stronger, more attractive person.


----------



## Kobo

frustr8dhubby said:


> Kobo,
> I can't think of anything I am particularly "skilled" at. And if I go two weeks without "groping" her she could care less.


Well get skilled at something. Take a martial art. You learn a skill and get exercise all while being out of the house. You'll also meet new people including women. If that's not for you. Find the local gun range and start working on your marksmanship. Just do something for yourself.


----------



## nice777guy

Kobo said:


> Well get skilled at something. Take a martial art. You learn a skill and get exercise all while being out of the house. You'll also meet new people including women. If that's not for you. Find the local gun range and start working on your marksmanship. Just do something for yourself.


:iagree:

Golf. Learn a musical instrument. Read. Take a cooking class. Jog. Join a gym. Hang a punching bag in your garage and beat on it. Build something. Break something!

Do more things with just you and your kids - maybe spend some more one on one time with each of them - I'm sure my kids would appreciate that.


----------



## lime

General question: 

Would the loving gestures (flowers, surprises, etc.) be effective if they were used somewhat like rewards for sex?

As in, don't do them after a long dry spell, but DO try them the day after you have sex...Would that be like saying "We really connected yesterday and I feel so much more in love with you" or would it just be viewed as a request for more sex?

Just curious if that would "work" or be totally ineffective.


----------



## Deejo

I say no. You don't want to focus on 'the act'.

A simple gesture, sure. "It was nice connecting with you last night."

But emphasizing how thrilled you are that you were 'given' sex perpetuates the same dynamic. If anything, I would underplay it. If she decides to bring the subject up, it's a different matter.


----------



## MEM2020

TOTALLY agree with Deejo's post. 




Deejo said:


> I say no. You don't want to focus on 'the act'.
> 
> A simple gesture, sure. "It was nice connecting with you last night."
> 
> But emphasizing how thrilled you are that you were 'given' sex perpetuates the same dynamic. If anything, I would underplay it. If she decides to bring the subject up, it's a different matter.


----------



## frustr8dhubby

OK, OK, I'm working on it. I haven't touched her in a week, what a surprise, no response there.

But I also think I may be giving the wrong impression of her. She doesn't avoid total touch with me. She hugs me, kisses me, snuggles up to me at night, etc.

MEM, I have stopped initiating the hugs but how am I supposed to respond when she hugs me? Am I supposed to be nonchalant?

I am trying to stop doing what turns her off. The problem is, I have NO idea what turns her ON anymore. Now she is almost anti-sexual. I suppose that could be my fault in being to needy for sex but no clue how to reverse that trend.

Gads I suck at this..


----------



## WhereAmI

frustr8dhubby said:


> OK, OK, I'm working on it. I haven't touched her in a week, what a surprise, no response there.
> 
> But I also think I may be giving the wrong impression of her. She doesn't avoid total touch with me. She hugs me, kisses me, snuggles up to me at night, etc.
> 
> MEM, I have stopped initiating the hugs but how am I supposed to respond when she hugs me? Am I supposed to be nonchalant?
> 
> I am trying to stop doing what turns her off. The problem is, I have NO idea what turns her ON anymore. Now she is almost anti-sexual. I suppose that could be my fault in being to needy for sex but no clue how to reverse that trend.
> 
> Gads I suck at this..


You don't at all! I think everyone is putting a lot of pressure on you to fix this when she has other things she needs to fix before she'll feel like a woman! 

Keep accepting her touch! You do NOT want her to feel rejected. 

Is she getting out by herself or with friends? Does she feel like she can? She needs to find herself again.


----------



## frustr8dhubby

Not as much as she should, no. That was another surprising thing to come out of our discussion. She is somewhat jealous of the time I spend with the boys playing D&D or Risk.

The reason it surprised me is that she is the the social one. She knows and talks to just about everyone. I am the complete opposite. I have very few people that I like much and care to hang around. She had a really good close friend when we lived in California and she hasn't seemed to been able to make that same connection with anyone here. She has lots of friends but no one that I thinks she feels as comfortable with.


----------



## MEM2020

F8,
You are doing really well. Honestly. 

How do you feel about suggesting the mutual "non-sexual" massage? And pick Friday/Saturday night so it can be done without time pressure. 

You have to be firm about the "no sex" rule. Even if she plays a game with you along the lines of "but what if I do get in the mood"? Just smile and say "if that happens we can play again the next night and if you still feel desire - maybe you will get lucky - neutral tone - and a smile - "no leering - no sexual body language - just a low key affect".  NOTHING is hotter than a man under duress (which you are and she knows you are) who can keep his cool. 

If she tries to blow off the massage under the heading of:
1. She just doesn't "want" to or
2. She doesn't believe it isn't a ploy for sex you need to be firm

For (1) you need to make unbroken eye contact and say "this type non-sexual affection is important to me and you need to step up here and make it a priority". And then be quiet and let her talk. No matter what - anything other than a "ok we are on" response needs to be met with a "I am not ok with this" and then walk away. At that point I would continue to be friendly and polite - and upbeat to be around. And I would also shut down the hugs/touch 100 percent. Meaning I would not let my W "hug/touch" me if she wasn't ok with a non-sexual massage night where we both give/get at least a half hour of touch. So at least an hour total. Otherwise - forget sex - you are letting the most important person in your life deprioritize you in a really ugly manner. 

For (2) unbroken eye contact with "This is not about sex - it is about love and a high level of affection. If you are not able to trust me enough to even give this a try we have a giant marital problem. I deserve a lot better than this". And then be quiet - same approach as above if you get anything other than a yes. 

But but but. You have got to really look at this for what it is. A critical type of physical intimacy that is good for both of you. And hopefully you can make this a delightful experience for HER. And she needs to make the effort to make it good for you. 

One last thing - if you get a half assed or semi-resentful yes I would handle that with "If you cannot come to our marriage bed with a loving heart and sincere desire to be close to me even in a non-sexual manner - I don't want to do this at all". 

And stay firm on this. If you let her turn this into some type of mercy thing - where she is clearly radiating a lack of desire to participate you will be heading into the black hole. 

Do not let her make this about sex. Do not make any comments about "well you owe me at least this since you aren't having sex with me". That is a toxic path. Just stick to a focus on "if non-sexual intimacy is something you cannot engage in - in a loving and giving way - I don't want it". 

I don't think any of that will happen. I think she will go for the massage. But if she doesn't you need to shut her down completely regarding HER need for touch. 

And prepare yourself for the unexpected so that no matter what she does you do not get angry. If you get angry you will make mistakes and in this context the stakes are too high to let that happen. 

I am betting on you F8. I think she will go for this. I also think she "may" try to tease sexually you to get you to break your promise. Let her tease you - if she is obvious about it - enjoy the friction - her will power and skill vs yours. You can even taunt her a little. "I promised you this was not going to be a sexual encounter - there is literally nothing you could do that would get me to break that promise." 

If she has some spirit she will see that as a challenge. The way I would play it is - if she actually touched the equipment in any way I would playfully grab her hand - wrestle her down on the bed and tell her you will let her up when she promises to finish the massage without any "inappropriate touching". Ideally this is all done with terms like "naughty" and "I don't want to have to punish you" with a humorous tone. 

This mix of self control - humor and strength is very powerful. 

Does this make any sense at all to you? Does it seem fair? If the tables were turned would you be ok if you were on the receiving end of this approach? 

The golden rule is powerful - if she forces this into an emotional deep freeze by rejecting the massage you can always run the golden rule play "There is no circumstance under which I would refuse you a non-sexual massage - none". 

If she is really far gone it may take a few weeks of no hugs, no touch of any type - for her to realize that you mean business. 




frustr8dhubby said:


> OK, OK, I'm working on it. I haven't touched her in a week, what a surprise, no response there.
> 
> But I also think I may be giving the wrong impression of her. She doesn't avoid total touch with me. She hugs me, kisses me, snuggles up to me at night, etc.
> 
> MEM, I have stopped initiating the hugs but how am I supposed to respond when she hugs me? Am I supposed to be nonchalant?
> 
> I am trying to stop doing what turns her off. The problem is, I have NO idea what turns her ON anymore. Now she is almost anti-sexual. I suppose that could be my fault in being to needy for sex but no clue how to reverse that trend.
> 
> Gads I suck at this..


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## frustr8dhubby

I'm game, thanks MEM. Probably can't do it this weekend since we will be VERY busy this weekend. But we will see.

One quick thing. You are saying I should avoid the hug thing now or only if she refuses the non-sex massage night?

Another strange thing just happened a little bit ago. She called my cell to ask for something and said "How come you don't say Hi sweetie anymore". To be honest, it isn't conscious if I am not saying that, but would that be a good thing??


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## MEM2020

As for now. Do not reject hugs or touches. She hugs - you should hug her back. She touches - let her touch. She wants to spoon in bed - I would do so. Just don't initiate any of that directly or indirectly. Let her make it happen.

She is feeling a little "chill" regarding the lack of 'hi sweetie'. That is ok. You should be honest and tell her you don't really think about that stuff - it is just an "autopilot" thing. And that truthfully you aren't in a "sweetie" place with her right now. 

I want to share a brief story. A year ago my W had a very unusual/rare "melt down" for lack of a better word. Told me she needed space. I went away for two long weekends during the following month to visit friends. On one of those trips - 3 nights in a row we had our normal - nice friendly chat - and she never once said "I miss you". She always says she misses me when I travel. Anyway - when I got home she was happy to see me and we connected and it was great as usual. But the thing is I thanked her for not saying she missed me while I was away. Thing is she "didn't" miss me. I don't want her saying stuff she does not feel. It is - not honest. And I would rather have "raw/painful" then "nice/deceitful". You are being emotionally honest with your W. If she reacts badly to telling her you aren't in a "sweetie" place - just stay calm and say "I am being honest with you - I wish we both felt differently right now but it doesn't help to deceive each other"

You also might want to "self" assess your schedule. This is how I handle mine:
- If I am doing right by the children in terms of time/attention and am on top of my house chores/responsibilities AND
- If my W does not explicitly want to spend that time interacting with me. And interacting does not mean watching tv together. It means true - interaction. Talking, walking, playing a game. 

Then she has no basis for complaining about me playing risk/computer games etc. Next time she does I would ask her - "how is it you want me to spend the time I am doing that"?

Beware the request for more housework. If you are doing your fair share - say so - and don't budge. If she wants to do something "with" you that is ok. 

How often do you have weekends that as busy as the upcoming one? I hope it is rare. 




frustr8dhubby said:


> I'm game, thanks MEM. Probably can't do it this weekend since we will be VERY busy this weekend. But we will see.
> 
> One quick thing. You are saying I should avoid the hug thing now or only if she refuses the non-sex massage night?
> 
> Another strange thing just happened a little bit ago. She called my cell to ask for something and said "How come you don't say Hi sweetie anymore". To be honest, it isn't conscious if I am not saying that, but would that be a good thing??


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## frustr8dhubby

Actually during this time of the year it is common. We have gymnastics meets 6 of the next 7 weekends.


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## MEM2020

You mentioned working from home 1/2 days a week. 

Schedule a bit over an hour for lunch and do the mutual massage while the kids are at school. Or schedule it so you both get in bed so that you have an hour and she can still go to sleep at or close to her normal time. 

Do not wait until the stars all align. And the reason you should not do so is that until sex can be restarted - this should be something you do a couple times a week at minimum. And she needs to show THAT level of physical commitment to you or you need to drop the emotional temperature in the marriage to the point where she is very uncomfortable. In general that is a skill you need to develop and refine because your W is VERY comfortable right now ignoring your needs. 

That said - she needs to make the effort to create 2-3 hours a week for you two to be non-sexually physically intimate. If she won't do that it looks from the outside that you have an extremely expensive room mate. 

Everyone is different in these things. But for me - this would get us through a dead spot if we ever had one. If my W was not willing to do this AND not willing to have sex then we would have a conversation that I am certain she would find very painful. 




frustr8dhubby said:


> Actually during this time of the year it is common. We have gymnastics meets 6 of the next 7 weekends.


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## frustr8dhubby

OK MEM so I am worried about tomorrow. I can't really ask for the mutual massage thing because my wife now has tendonitos (sp?) so she really can't be rubbing my back. She can barely move her wrist.

What I am more worried about is that I work from home tomorrow and that is usually pity sex day. Part of me wants to just reject it flat out but I also don't want to create some vicious cycle. I'm tempted to offer her the no-sex massage but then it's one sided...

Ugh, I really don't understand this sh$t...


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## MEM2020

F8,
You are doing fine. And you understand this stuff pretty well you just don't like it. The tendonitis is just bad luck. You got a lemon, try to make lemonade. If/when she offers pity sex give her a mischeivous smile and say - we are going to play a game. Maybe it will end that way - maybe not. Either way it should be fun. If she is self conscious about her body get the room dark enough for her to relax. 

You keep your clothes on - get her to strip down mostly/or completely. Then play better one/better two on the relaxing massage. And then slowly make it more sensual - but keep playing better one/better two. If she tries to discourage the "sensual" massage be playful but firm. "I am trying to make this feel nice for you - keep fighting me and you will get a spanking". And pay close attention to her response. It may surprise you. If however she is totally resisting teaching you how to turn her on - end it calmly and then go work and ignore her for a while. Because if she won't tell you what she likes, you are lost. And better one, better two is about as low stress a way to get that info as any. 

If she asks why you are "clothed" play with her a bit "if you get hot enough from the massage I will have to take them off won't I? And if you don't, I will likely keep them on". Polite message: If you won't teach me how to get you cranked I am not inclined to "play" a very one sided game driven by pity. 

She may allow the non-sensual massage and then try to short circuit the process by trying to get you to stop the sensual touch and get undressed. Ask her to humor you to 10 minutes of "warming her up" - if she doesn't - your call - me - I would walk. 

Pay attention to any signals she is open to/wants to wrestle. If she does - go for it. Being overpowered in the right way drives some women mad.




frustr8dhubby said:


> OK MEM so I am worried about tomorrow. I can't really ask for the mutual massage thing because my wife now has tendonitos (sp?) so she really can't be rubbing my back. She can barely move her wrist.
> 
> What I am more worried about is that I work from home tomorrow and that is usually pity sex day. Part of me wants to just reject it flat out but I also don't want to create some vicious cycle. I'm tempted to offer her the no-sex massage but then it's one sided...
> 
> Ugh, I really don't understand this sh$t...


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## frustr8dhubby

OK, stupid question time. What the heck is better one/better two??


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## MEM2020

Sorry - my bad. The idea for better one/better two came to us from how the optometrist converges on the prescription for your glasses. He keeps making small changes and asking "better one? or better two"?

So for a massage: Better one/better two is you do something in terms of a massage stroke and then do a small variation on it. You do the first and ask "better 1"? and then the variant "better 2". This could be:
- shifting the location you are working a bit or
- the amount of pressure or
- the direction - vertical/horizontal/diagonal 
- the body part: finger tips, thumbs or finger nails - some people love a mixed massage/back scratch

Once relaxed an inner thigh and/or butt massage can be a huge turn on. The thing is - that only happens after a lot of non-sensual/vanilla massage touch. The thing is - you definitely keep doing the better 1/better 2 while doing the sensual massage. 




frustr8dhubby said:


> OK, stupid question time. What the heck is better one/better two??


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## frustr8dhubby

OK, thanks MEM.


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## frustr8dhubby

OK, the massage thing didn't fly on Wednesday. She is worried about her skin (and she does have some serious skin issues) so I let it go.

That being said we did end up having some nice sex. She actually let me go down on her for the first time in YEARS and I think she actually had a small orgasm. (Yes, it was AWESOME!  )

Anyway while we were first messing around she said something about it being dirty. While in the middle of it I was getting a bit carried away, so when we were done she said she would work on letting herself relax more if I wouldn't talk dirty. WTF? Sex with my wife is dirty? She's never been like this. Does she have some hang-up on being a mom and can't feel like a sexual being???

Ugh this is maddening...


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## MEM2020

GREAT JOB. 

Kill the dirty talk for now. And maybe forever. She made a HUGE effort by relaxing and letting you go down on her. Glass is 4/5 full this week. You cannot radiate frustration at her if she is hardwired to be uncomfortable with certain things. 

She is being emotionally "intimate" with you by telling you what she likes/dislikes and is anxious about. So:
- no groping (btw many, many wives dislike being groped) and
- no dirty talk

That doesn't mean she will dislike you being bossy/a little edgy with her verbally in bed. "Strip, tell me you will do what I say" etc. She might be ok/good with that. Or not. Find out and accept what she says without radiating disappointment or frustration. There are MANY paths to a good sex life. 

Pat yourself on the back. Seriously. 





frustr8dhubby said:


> OK, the massage thing didn't fly on Wednesday. She is worried about her skin (and she does have some serious skin issues) so I let it go.
> 
> That being said we did end up having some nice sex. She actually let me go down on her for the first time in YEARS and I think she actually had a small orgasm. (Yes, it was AWESOME!  )
> 
> Anyway while we were first messing around she said something about it being dirty. While in the middle of it I was getting a bit carried away, so when we were done she said she would work on letting herself relax more if I wouldn't talk dirty. WTF? Sex with my wife is dirty? She's never been like this. Does she have some hang-up on being a mom and can't feel like a sexual being???
> 
> Ugh this is maddening...


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## MEM2020

Oh - and ask her if she would enjoy sex more if the two of you showered just before. Not together - unless she wants that. But just the idea of getting in bed freshly showered. 

We do that 98% of the time before sex. Separate showers. 




MEM11363 said:


> GREAT JOB.
> 
> Kill the dirty talk for now. And maybe forever. She made a HUGE effort by relaxing and letting you go down on her. Glass is 4/5 full this week. You cannot radiate frustration at her if she is hardwired to be uncomfortable with certain things.
> 
> She is being emotionally "intimate" with you by telling you what she likes/dislikes and is anxious about. So:
> - no groping (btw many, many wives dislike being groped) and
> - no dirty talk
> 
> That doesn't mean she will dislike you being bossy/a little edgy with her verbally in bed. "Strip, tell me you will do what I say" etc. She might be ok/good with that. Or not. Find out and accept what she says without radiating disappointment or frustration. There are MANY paths to a good sex life.
> 
> Pat yourself on the back. Seriously.


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## frustr8dhubby

Thx MEM, seriously!

I will do my best and I'm thankful for what I get, I am just shocked to find out she has become such a prude. It blows my freakin' mind.

The groping thing I'm working hard on, that has been an issue for a long time..  I have to say I have been pretty good about it for the last 2-3 weeks so I hope I can keep it going.

Thanks again.


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## frustr8dhubby

Yeah, it was after we both showered. We are pretty much always that way. Less spontaneous but I like to know that I'm clean!


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