# Problems in marriage, WAW - Question for women



## EleGirl

We hear often about WAW's. The husbands are apparently shocked when their wife says she wants a divorce. Yet she will say that she has been telling him for years about the problems she has and how unhappy she is. But he just has tuned her out.

The below quote was posted by a guy here on TAM. 


> That is my point. He isn't paying attention because his wife is talking to him like a woman.
> 
> ...
> 
> Because their wife is not being CLEAR IN A MANNER UNDERSTOOD BY A MAN IT IS OOOOOOOOVVVVVVVVVEEEEEEEEER UNLESS IT GETS FIXED PRONTO.


I would like to hear from women how clear they have been about the issues. 

Can you give some examples of things you have asked for and how you stated it.

And did you threaten to leave? If you did, did it help?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I have tried pretty much everything I can think of and H still gets shocked about it. 

I have tried the nice approach - "I really love it when you _____" 

I've done the serious talk where I tell him that I don't know how much longer I can stay with him without these changes. I gave him specifics of what, where, when of the things I wanted him to do. 

I tried being cute and funny and light (this was H's suggestion, that the serious tone made him shut off) 

I tried showing him videos, bringing home books and questionnaires. 

I've been blunt that ____ really isn't attractive and I am losing all sexual interest in you and respect for you. 

I've had moments where I was mean and rude about it too TBH. 
And I also tried some PA approaches like leaving the broom on his couch and the garbage bags in his way to go to work in the morning. 

And most recently I've set a date for changes to be made by or it's done. 

I've been as clear in as many different ways as I can.

I got the most progress when I kicked him out and separated for a bit. Honestly, I should have waited until all the issues were solved before I let him back but things were going well and when you aren't in the day to day it's hard to really see how things are doing. 

He thinks these talks are me just being cranky, that it'll blow over so he'll agree with me in the moment to make me happy but then not follow through. Other things he'll give a little bit of effort just to shut me up. 
He really is shocked every time I get through to him how serious I am though. He really doesn't think my issues are that big of a deal.


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## LongWalk

It's hard for some of men to grow up.


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## *LittleDeer*

Just one way was I asked for marriage counselling over and over, and I told him that I would leave if we did not have it. He agreed and then backed out.


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## 2ntnuf

This thread just illustrates the destruction caused by a man's complacency and satisfaction in what he thinks he has in his marriage. He basically has nothing in reality, and needs to make up his mind to do what he wants at every moment in his life. He needs to be considerate of her condition, but take steps to do what he thinks is best. If she is chasing him, she won't have time to tell him what to do. It's when she takes over that the problems start. He won't understand nor be happy in what she wants. She won't be satisfied because he didn't choose to do it on his own. It's useless to continue with the relationship once it gets to this point, in my opinion. The wife will always remember how she had to take the lead and the husband will no longer be respected. The marriage is over. You have been friend-zoned.


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## Mr.Fisty

Whatever the sex of the walk away spouse is, some people like to avoid conflict, or they place little value in what their partner is saying is because they place less value in those issues that their partner places them. A lower SD partner will be more fulfilled than a partner that is HD. They value the issue of sex less.

I lived with a roommate that was irresponsible. He would eat, and never clean. In his room, it was like a bomb exploded. I simply kicked him out and found another roommate. When communication does not work, I will take action next. I did not need his half for bills, so it was an easy decision to make. It turns out that his parents clean his room for him all his life and he never had any chores. He did not think I would kick him out since we were friends, and that is the part of taking things for granted. This was about three years ago, and he still lives at home for someone who is twenty-five.

People have their own value, priorities, not to mention their own personal sh1t to deal with, and it rarely matches with another person's. Most of us know how to talk, but communication is a skill, and so is listening. You can be an effective communicator, but that does not mean the other person will be an effective listener.


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## samyeagar

My ex wife was very subtle at first, then became more direct and blunt, and I didn't hear or listen to her. When we first separated, it was a huge shock to me. After digging into things, it was pretty clear, I had a WAW.

After a bit of time, self reflection, and counselling, the truth became more clear. I was actually the walk away spouse. The reason I didn't hear her was because I had already checked out long before she realized. I never noticed it in myself because I was in preservation mode, trying to protect myself and kids from her NPD. The shock I felt at separation was just withdrawal due to all the routines of that past 20 years changing.


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## Rowan

My ex-husband is still shocked, and deeply hurt, that I filed for divorce. He'd spent years ignoring very clear communication that his behaviors were hurtful. When I found out he'd also been serially cheating the whole relationship, I filed. Basically, it just had never occurred to him that I might leave him. For _any_ reason. Ever. 

I think there are just some people who, while not narcissists in the clinical sense, are still deeply, profoundly, self-centered. No amount of explaining, asking, pleading, or begging is going to make them "get it" and change. The truth is they already get it, but they don't want to change. Because the status quo works for them, and they assume - soul deep - that if it doesn't work for their partner, it's because their partner is somehow defective and in need of correction.


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## Anon Pink

I'll answer on one request I had been making for years, words of affirmation. My husband NEVER ever complimented me. I'm not being glib. I thought he never said anything because he never felt anything. I thought he was never pleased enough with me to say something. I was afraid to ask because I was afraid he would admit to not liking the post baby me, the 35 year old me, the 40 year old. I would ask, how do I look, and he would answer, you look nice. But only if I asked first. Then I challenged the word nice. I said, you sound like a 10 years boy being pushed to go tell grandma she looks nice! He said, so what's wrong with that!

I said, you never compliment me. He said, you don't compliment me either. I said, since you've never complimented me I assumed being complimented wasn't something you cared about. He said it was. I said then why don't you do it? He said he didn't know. Then he said he tells me I look nice.


Finally at 48, after cancer I flat out told him, I need to hear compliments from you! I need to hear you say nice things, especially when I'm dressed up. I put effort into how I look and I want to know you notice it. He was silent. I kept at it. He began to say thing like, "your hair cut is different. Your hair color is lighter. Your blouse matches your pants." WTF!!!

I went to happy hour with friends and ran into a guy from childhood and apparently I was his first kiss, funny enough I have no memory of kissing this guy. We laughed and teased and lightly flirted. He said all sorts of lovely things, the kind of things I really wanted to hear from my husband. He asked if I fooled around. I said Nope. We joked about it and I ended up promising hi if I ever decided to have an affair I would give him first crack at my married ass. Wrote it on a ****tail napkin and my friends witnessed it. We laughed hysterically. Went home and to,d my H all about it, almost word for word. He was silent then said..."I should be the one to give you compliments like that." I said no sh!t! But he still didn't compliment me.

Another time I was showing off a new bra and panty set and was purposely trying to draw out a compliment. He looked and admired with his eye, but only said...nice. I Kaye's down on the bed next to him and posed again and said "say beatiful" he did. "Say sexy" he did. "Say hot" he did. "Say lovely" he did.... On and on I gave him words I longed to hear from him. Still..Nothing changed.

I threatened divorce. Not just about compliments there were many other issues too. He went to therapy. I spoke to his therapist. They worked on pairing his emotions with words. He got a little better.

He is still trying to get better, but I've threatened divorce a few times now because he was always backsliding.

This past Janurary we went to Retrouvaille and he got it. He heard from other women the exact same things I had been saying for years. The exact same words and pleas, but it came from someone else; someone he hadn't decided long ago to ignore. So he heard it, and he got it.


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## MachoMcCoy

We've taken the fight to the Ladies Lounge. That should help.


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## skype

MachoMcCoy said:


> We've taken the fight to the Ladies Lounge. That should help.


Your "rolleyes" emoticon speaks volumes.


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## doobie

I've been very direct about several things. I have told my husband that the rough sex he likes actually hurts, making me feel so much pain that I don't get any pleasure at all. Nothing has changed, sex (on the odd occasion that we do have it) still hurts and the pain turns me off.

I have also told him that I am highly sexual and cannot live without sex (we had sex 5 times in the last year). I've said that if things don't improve we need to either think about divorce or an open marriage. Nothing has changed on that front either. 

I feel as if he doesn't hear what I'm saying when I speak to him. I've now given up any hope of improvement and am waiting to save enough to rent my own place and get out of this marriage.


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## staarz21

Let's see....I tried:

"You did X. That is NOT going to happen again. If it does - I walk out the door and leave the divorce papers on the table."

Though, I guess that's not clear enough....so I've also said:

I am DONE. I cannot live like this anymore. I don't feel loved, attractive, or even remotely on your radar. You continue to do X,Y, and Z even after we've talked about it. I want OUT of this marriage because you're not even in it anymore."

Not clear enough because guess who is doing it all again.


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## NobodySpecial

staarz21 said:


> Let's see....I tried:
> 
> "You did X. That is NOT going to happen again. If it does - I walk out the door and leave the divorce papers on the table."


It sounds like you did not follow through.



> Though, I guess that's not clear enough....so I've also said:
> 
> I am DONE. I cannot live like this anymore. I don't feel loved, attractive, or even remotely on your radar. You continue to do X,Y, and Z even after we've talked about it. I want OUT of this marriage because you're not even in it anymore."
> 
> Not clear enough because guess who is doing it all again.


I think you were very clear. Your words do not match your actions. Thus the words cannot be trusted.


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## NobodySpecial

Early in our marriage, I was ready to call it quits. If I had done, it would have seemed WAW to my husband. I spoke words. He did not get it. Instead I spoke actions. Effective limit setting. THEN he got it.


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## staarz21

NobodySpecial said:


> It sounds like you did not follow through.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you were very clear. Your words do not match your actions. Thus the words cannot be trusted.


Yep. You're right, but when/if it does happen....he will still be in shock and awe that it does. 

I thought that is what the thread was about.


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## EleGirl

NobodySpecial said:


> Early in our marriage, I was ready to call it quits. If I had done, it would have seemed WAW to my husband. I spoke words. He did not get it. Instead I spoke actions. Effective limit setting. THEN he got it.


Can you give some examples of these actions and effective limit setting that you used. It would be helpful.


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## NobodySpecial

staarz21 said:


> Yep. You're right, but when/if it does happen....he will still be in shock and awe that it does.
> 
> I thought that is what the thread was about.


Yup. I was agreeing with you.


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## staarz21

NobodySpecial said:


> Yup. I was agreeing with you.


I think I read it wrong at first.  Everything you said it true though...my words are empty threats to him because I have made them just that. That's why he doesn't listen.


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## NobodySpecial

EleGirl said:


> Can you give some examples of these actions and effective limit setting that you used. It would be helpful.


My issues were lack of time spent together in favor of gaming or wood shop, finances and housework. He viewed my discussions as nagging. I completely let go of the time issue. It was his to choose how he spent his time. If he did not want to spend it with me, he did not want to spend it with me. So that is clearly not limit setting, but it is still relevant to only pick the must have battles.

As for housework, he did almost none. Again words were useless because he just really could not see what it took. I stopped doing i for him. I stopped doing his laundry. If I did not feel like cleaning the bathroom, I didn't. The house got dirty and he would complain. I simply did not reply to his complaints. I certainly did not accept the implication that *I* was supposed to clean it up. If I did not feel like cooking dinner, I didn't. When he asked what's for dinner, I said whatever you cook.

As for money, I took his cell and cancelled the plan (my cell included as part of the debt reduction plan.) I opened a bank account for the amount we had previously agreed to for spending. The rest went into a separate account that he had no access to. (He was spending with complete disregard to bills/budget/agreements.) He did not see any one incident as a "big deal" but also did not mark the summation of the individual instances as a pattern.

At first, he was rip **** angry. I said I told you I am not living like we have been, and I meant it. This is my last ditch effort to see if you can get it because I am not bringing kids into this. If you need to leave me, then you need to leave me.

It did not take too long for him to begin to see the reality. He ran out of clean clothes. He started doing laundry. When he started doing laundry, I resumed doing his laundry with mine when I did it. He started cleaning up. And started cooking.

A few years later, we opened up the accounts because he realized how much he was spending and how much more pleasant not having bill collectors calling was.

The thing is, he COULD HAVE left. He could have thrown it in. He did not have to respond (eventually) in such a reasonable way. But so what? I was ready to walk away.

My nagging and bringing up my issues at all STOPPED DEAD at the time of the change. Less conversation was way better. So he stopped feeling irritated at me. And wanted to spend time with me. Appreciated the freedom to decompress in the shop or on the computer.

That set a new, happier pattern for the next 15 years. We are both glad I did it now.


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## ConanHub

Fitnessfan said:


> I told my husband: "We've not had sex in nearly a year. Right now my sex drive is through the roof. I do not want to have sex with another man. I am craving intimacy and physical touch and I'm worried that I will not be able to resist if another man was to be interested. Please help me. I only want to be with you but you don't appear to want that from me."
> 
> I did not mean this as a threat to cheat but rather a cry for help. He didn't take it as a threat but he didn't take it seriously either. I desperately wanted to be intimate with my husband. It was painful to be in bed with him at night with his arm around me and his body so close and turning me on. I'd ask and he'd turn me down.
> 
> Months later, a male friend was testing the waters with me via text. I had told the man to stop numerous times but one day I didn't tell him to stop and I participated back. So the brotherhood of BS can think I'm a dirty ***** for that but I don't freaking care because for some reason it was like a light went off in my spouses head. We have been having regular intimacy for almost a year now. I don't want to get into any more specifics about the OM and if you want to crucify me for my actions...keep it to yourself. My post is to show I was direct and it didn't help.


Now I'm curious! What happened? How did you work it out? Obviously your H found out something serious was going on and woke up. Very interested.

People need to leave before cheating however. No use staying if you're filling up at another pump right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NobodySpecial

staarz21 said:


> I think I read it wrong at first.  Everything you said it true though...my words are empty threats to him because I have made them just that. That's why he doesn't list.


The fault is mine. My tone was totally unclear.


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## sisters359

From early on--once we were living together--I told my ex that I was not his mom and that I should not have to get angry to get a response from him. I am a reasonable person; I do not believe in threats. I made it very clear I was unhappy about a number of things, and he turned it into a game--as he had done with roommates--to see just how much he could get away with. We had a child relatively quickly--married less than two years--and I felt I had to make a go of it. But as a couple more kids came, the feeling that he was just adding to my work and not to my enjoyment of life, grew. Over the years, I had tried all the strategies someone else mentioned, and I never thought I would leave. But somehow, it just got to be too much. It was kind of a silly thing--I had asked him that if he was driving my car and had to put in gas, would he please fill it up (we shared all our earnings, so it was not a money issue). He had never done it and, then one day, I got in and found it 1/2 filled again, and that was it. I just quit caring about him and wanted him out of my life. Yes, he was shocked--he said, "you never screamed or cried about anything." But he also knew how he had been taking advantage of me all those years, so he didn't really argue much. He knew why--he just didn't think I would. So when a guy says, "I didn't know it was so important," or seems "shocked," I suspect he is just lying to himself--or rather, shocked that she would leave after putting up with the b.s. for so long. Those guys know damn well that they are a pain in the ass to live with, they know their wives don't find them attractive, and they know they have not loved, honored, and cherished their wives.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Nobodyspecial- did you have kids when you did all that? I have tried that a few times but I still have to do some stuff because I have the kids at home, who need to eat and have a clean house. I stopped doing his stuff (laundry and around his chair) and it just stays a mess. He doesn't b*tch about it, he just still doesn't do it. The mess he makes in the kitchen I still have to do because I need to cook in there.
He'll finally do his own laundry.
I did get him to sweep by day 2 of just leaving the broom on his couch without saying a word but it was PA and I don't want to get into those bad habits.


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## NobodySpecial

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Nobodyspecial- did you have kids when you did all that?


No! I can imagine that it is WAY more difficult once there are kids in the picture. I made a conscious choice not to have kids with him and to leave him if this situation did not change. And he knew that. I get it that I am very lucky to have figured some things out early in the game.



> I have tried that a few times but I still have to do some stuff because I have the kids at home, who need to eat and have a clean house. I stopped doing his stuff (laundry and around his chair) and it just stays a mess. He doesn't b*tch about it, he just still doesn't do it. The mess he makes in the kitchen I still have to do because I need to cook in there.


So I guess I am *****ier than you. I got myself paper dishware, and placed his dirty dishes on the back deck to get them out of my way.

As for the kids, if I had to imagine myself doing this with kids around, my mantra would be I am not the maid (which I already say to them). I can only control me. And I want to cook dinner. His dishes are in my way.

But that's me. Also, I was financially the more stable of the two of us. So money was no object.


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## NobodySpecial

Coincident with this was that I got an education on the dreaded Fitness Test and was called on some of my own unreasonable behavior. And stopped it entirely.


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## MachoMcCoy

doobie said:


> I feel as if he doesn't hear what I'm saying when I speak to him. I've now given up any hope of improvement and am waiting to save enough to rent my own place and get out of this marriage.


The motto of the modern marriage.


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## EleGirl

MachoMcCoy said:


> The motto of the modern marriage.


Why, because what women want, need, feel and think do not matter in marriage for some?


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## 2ntnuf

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't read what anyone or maybe only one did long before it got to a boiling point? What I am used to is either extreme subtlety or actions which look like and I think lead to more passive aggressive behavior, sometimes culminating in much worse behavior, infidelity and divorce. What I don't normally see is a couple understanding the "language" used. That's what is frustrating when I read these threads. That's what is sad. 

Long before it got to the point of taking these drastic actions which we all are certain will cause reaction, but not necessarily understanding, I thought there would be some...emotion exposing conversation leading to direct conversation about what is disliked and needs changing. I see where it is expected, maybe very rightly so, and therefore the subtle language leads to unrest and months to years of internal struggle. 

It's so sad that couples don't know how to be direct in language without being harmful. I almost wrote hurtful, but sometimes we can't help hurting someone's feelings. It's the nature of the beast which is intimacy. How is it that most men don't understand their wives? I write most because at least fifty percent account for divorces and must not understand. Add in those who just gave up on the idea of marriage altogether, and that's much more than fifty percent. I think it's expected that men take charge of learning this foreign language. I think I understand. 

Again, I'd love to read more of what language was used before it got to consequences. And, I don't necessarily mean words used, as that is not always the method employed. I think before it gets to consequences which alter lives is the place in time that does the most good and the least damage. I think it's critical for men to understand the language, if they want to give their marriage an honest effort without a handicap. It is a handicap, almost like it's a secret that allows opportunity for control. The more I read, the more I find myself unable to defend against that thought.


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## EleGirl

2ntnuf said:


> Maybe I missed it, but I didn't read what anyone or maybe only one did long before it got to a boiling point? What I am used to is either extreme subtlety or actions which look like and I think lead to more passive aggressive behavior, sometimes culminating in much worse behavior, infidelity and divorce. What I don't normally see is a couple understanding the "language" used. That's what is frustrating when I read these threads. That's what is sad.
> 
> Long before it got to the point of taking these drastic actions which we all are certain will cause reaction, but not necessarily understanding, I thought there would be some...emotion exposing conversation leading to direct conversation about what is disliked and needs changing. I see where it is expected, maybe very rightly so, and therefore the subtle language leads to unrest and months to years of internal struggle.
> 
> It's so sad that couples don't know how to be direct in language without being harmful. I almost wrote hurtful, but sometimes we can't help hurting someone's feelings. It's the nature of the beast which is intimacy. How is it that most men don't understand their wives? I write most because at least fifty percent account for divorces and must not understand. Add in those who just gave up on the idea of marriage altogether, and that's much more than fifty percent. I think it's expected that men take charge of learning this foreign language. I think I understand.
> 
> Again, I'd love to read more of what language was used before it got to consequences. And, I don't necessarily mean words used, as that is not always the method employed. I think before it gets to consequences which alter lives is the place in time that does the most good and the least damage. I think it's critical for men to understand the language, if they want to give their marriage an honest effort without a handicap. It is a handicap, almost like it's a secret that allows opportunity for control. The more I read, the more I find myself unable to defend against that thought.


Ok so women on this thread are talking about how clearly they stated the issue and what they saw as what they needed from their husbands. That is in answer to the question that was asked in the OP.

I'll give an example of an early conversation long before there was a real problem in my marriage with my son's father.

He quite is job to go to medical school. He had not told me that he was taking the medical school exam or that he was quitting his job to do it. He announced it to me after he quit.

By this time we had a son.

Now my thoughts about life and marriage is that a person should still be able to do what they want in life even if married. So I did tell him that I was no happy about the unilateral and sneaky way he did this. But I supported his decision. 

We talked about the long hours required for medical school. I asked him to promise me that he would still make time for us as a couple as I was afraid of us drifting apart. His reply was that he was not going to promise anything. At that point I talked a bit more about the reasons and he just repeated that he would not promise anything.

He started medical school. He spend all of his free time with his friends. He'd just hang out with them, or go on a day trip to sites in our state to do photography (which we both enjoyed). He even took some vacations with friends, leaving me behind.

I was 'lucky' if he spend 1-2 hours a month with me. When I would bring up that I really did not like that he spent no time with me... could we please do a weekly date, he saw it as nagging and would not address it. I tried talking in many different ways to get through to him. 

I asked him to go to MC with me. He did. We had one session. In the session I brought up the topic of spending time together, he became very angry and told me that the only time he wanted to spend with me was family time when our son was there.

Now 2ntnuf, I am not sure what it is that I was supposed to do? What would you have suggested?


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## 2ntnuf

Actually, that is a harrowing story. It's not really what I was hoping to read. I was hoping for something I will never get, so I'll accept what I read and move along, knowing what I do.


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## EleGirl

2ntnuf said:


> Actually, that is a harrowing story. It's not really what I was hoping to read. I was hoping for something I will never get, so I'll accept what I read and move along, knowing what I do.


I'm sorry but I do not understand your post. So please clarify.

What is a harrowing story?

What did you hope to read? (Something you will never get????)

Knowing what you do? What do you do?


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## Wolf1974

2ntnuf said:


> Maybe I missed it, but I didn't read what anyone or maybe only one did long before it got to a boiling point? What I am used to is either extreme subtlety or actions which look like and I think lead to more passive aggressive behavior, sometimes culminating in much worse behavior, infidelity and divorce. What I don't normally see is a couple understanding the "language" used. That's what is frustrating when I read these threads. That's what is sad.
> 
> Long before it got to the point of taking these drastic actions which we all are certain will cause reaction, but not necessarily understanding, I thought there would be some...emotion exposing conversation leading to direct conversation about what is disliked and needs changing. I see where it is expected, maybe very rightly so, and therefore the subtle language leads to unrest and months to years of internal struggle.
> 
> It's so sad that couples don't know how to be direct in language without being harmful. I almost wrote hurtful, but sometimes we can't help hurting someone's feelings. It's the nature of the beast which is intimacy. *How is it that most men don't understand their wives?* I write most because at least fifty percent account for divorces and must not understand. Add in those who just gave up on the idea of marriage altogether, and that's much more than fifty percent. I think it's expected that men take charge of learning this foreign language. I think I understand.
> 
> Again, I'd love to read more of what language was used before it got to consequences. And, I don't necessarily mean words used, as that is not always the method employed. I think before it gets to consequences which alter lives is the place in time that does the most good and the least damage. I think it's critical for men to understand the language, if they want to give their marriage an honest effort without a handicap. It is a handicap, almost like it's a secret that allows opportunity for control. The more I read, the more I find myself unable to defend against that thought.


Lots of truth. Good post.

I know in my case it was that my x wasn't communicating. She shut down completely. Prior to that we were able to talk about everything and did. Sometimes a spouse can check out for no real reason at all....and that is every bit as damaging to a marriage


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

2ntnuf said:


> Maybe I missed it, but I didn't read what anyone or maybe only one did long before it got to a boiling point? What I am used to is either extreme subtlety or actions which look like and I think lead to more passive aggressive behavior, sometimes culminating in much worse behavior, infidelity and divorce. What I don't normally see is a couple understanding the "language" used. That's what is frustrating when I read these threads. That's what is sad.
> 
> Long before it got to the point of taking these drastic actions which we all are certain will cause reaction, but not necessarily understanding, I thought there would be some...emotion exposing conversation leading to direct conversation about what is disliked and needs changing. I see where it is expected, maybe very rightly so, and therefore the subtle language leads to unrest and months to years of internal struggle.
> 
> It's so sad that couples don't know how to be direct in language without being harmful. I almost wrote hurtful, but sometimes we can't help hurting someone's feelings. It's the nature of the beast which is intimacy. How is it that most men don't understand their wives? I write most because at least fifty percent account for divorces and must not understand. Add in those who just gave up on the idea of marriage altogether, and that's much more than fifty percent. I think it's expected that men take charge of learning this foreign language. I think I understand.
> 
> Again, I'd love to read more of what language was used before it got to consequences. And, I don't necessarily mean words used, as that is not always the method employed. I think before it gets to consequences which alter lives is the place in time that does the most good and the least damage. I think it's critical for men to understand the language, if they want to give their marriage an honest effort without a handicap. It is a handicap, almost like it's a secret that allows opportunity for control. The more I read, the more I find myself unable to defend against that thought.


I honestly don't think that I used any kind of foreign language that he needed to learn before it got to the drastic stuff. 

'Hey hun, while I'm at the store could you sweep the living room? Thanks"
"After the kids are asleep would you like to watch a movie?"
"We should go out for dinner this weekend. I'm wiped out and need to get out of the house"

Seems pretty basic to me. But I'd get "Sure babe" and no follow through. Sometimes after I'd find out he didn't even hear what I said, just gave a response. 

Little things over and over again.


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## naiveonedave

the problem is that Men/Mars, Women/Venus and the few women responding to this thread probably had spouses who were more clueless than the average male (this forum is somewhat self selecting people who had or have 'bad' spouses.)


----------



## Jellybeans

EleGirl said:


> Can you give some examples of things you have asked for and how you stated it.


"I want to discuss something I feel is important to me..." 

"When you do X, it makes me feel Y."

"When you do X, it really hurts my feelings and we need to figure out a way to make this better together."

"Do you want to go to marriage counseling?" / "We should go to marriage counseling?" "Would you be into marriage counseling?" (All met with "NO.")

"I think marriage counseling would be helpful"

"What can I do to help" "What can I do to make this better?" "What do you need from me?"

"I am going to do IC"

Offered the 5 love languages, couple-y things. 

"I would love it if we spent more time together as I feel we're not doing that often." 

"Please don't talk to me like that" (when he said something particularly rude. 

There was a lot more sh*t that I said and did, ad nauseum, to no avail before the light finally became really clear to me.



EleGirl said:


> And did you threaten to leave? If you did, did it help?


Nothing helped except for actually leaving. And that's because I was done by then. I never went back.


----------



## Jellybeans

Mr.Fisty said:


> Whatever the sex of the walk away spouse is, some people like to avoid conflict, or they place little value in what their partner is saying is because they place less value in those issues that their partner places them.
> 
> You can be an effective communicator, but that does not mean the other person will be an effective listener.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## aine

Jellybeans said:


> "I want to discuss something I feel is important to me..."
> 
> "When you do X, it makes me feel Y."
> 
> "When you do X, it really hurts my feelings and we need to figure out a way to make this better together."
> 
> "Do you want to go to marriage counseling?" / "We should go to marriage counseling?" "Would you be into marriage counseling?" (All met with "NO.")
> 
> "I think marriage counseling would be helpful"
> 
> "I am going to do IC"
> 
> Offered the 5 love languages, couple-y things.
> 
> "I would love it if we spent more time together as I feel we're not doing that often."
> 
> "Please don't talk to me like that" (when he said something particularly rude.
> 
> There was a lot more sh*t that I said and did, ad nauseum, to no avail before the light finally became really clear to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing helped except for actually leaving. And that's because I was done by then. I never went back.



Did he want to work it out when you eventually left?


----------



## Jellybeans

He totally lost his sh*t when I finally did it because he truly could not believe I would ever do it. He told me himself that "this is the way things are going to be and if you don't like it, you can leave." I took him up on his word. I was just DONE. I literally had nothing else left in me to give. "Exasperated" doesn't even begin to describe it.


----------



## cons

In my first marriage, my communication regarding a need for change had a progression. Early on in our marriage, I would be ambiguous, probably because I felt ambiguous. My words were probably not very clear, as well as the fact that my ex wanted to rug sweep his lies and culpability for those lies.

I distinctly remember in 2007 when my husband said "I don't want to lose you or the kids" I replied with a very soft, unsure answer. Then in 2009 he lied about his health and that was a big blow (yet I still wasn't ready for divorce). Then in late 2010, I went to see a lawyer. I told my ex that not only could I not get past his lie about his health, but other lies/deceits had surfaced and I had one foot out the door. He asked for at least 6 more months, to show that he can change. Unfortunately almost six months after that, he had told me another lie. So when I said I will be filing for a divorce, he could honestly say he had been fairly warned. This all took over 14 years...

Not sure if me divorcing categorizes me as a WAW. But my ex was never blindsided.


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening Fitnessfan
I think that anyone who's partner is denying them intimacy, and where they have done everything they can to fix the problem has the moral right to have an affair. A marriage vow is not a vow of celibacy, and the person denying sex has already broken their vows. 

That said, I think that in many cases divorce is a better option, but it depends on the individual situation.

Many people with LD spouses have been as direct as possible, done everything possible, all to no avail.




Fitnessfan said:


> I told my husband: "We've not had sex in nearly a year. Right now my sex drive is through the roof. I do not want to have sex with another man. I am craving intimacy and physical touch and I'm worried that I will not be able to resist if another man was to be interested. Please help me. I only want to be with you but you don't appear to want that from me."
> 
> I did not mean this as a threat to cheat but rather a cry for help. He didn't take it as a threat but he didn't take it seriously either. I desperately wanted to be intimate with my husband. It was painful to be in bed with him at night with his arm around me and his body so close and turning me on. I'd ask and he'd turn me down.
> 
> Months later, a male friend was testing the waters with me via text. I had told the man to stop numerous times but one day I didn't tell him to stop and I participated back. So the brotherhood of BS can think I'm a dirty ***** for that but I don't freaking care because for some reason it was like a light went off in my spouses head. We have been having regular intimacy for almost a year now. I don't want to get into any more specifics about the OM and if you want to crucify me for my actions...keep it to yourself. My post is to show I was direct and it didn't help.


----------



## coffee4me

EleGirl said:


> I would like to hear from women how clear they have been about the issues.
> 
> Can you give some examples of things you have asked for and how you stated it.
> 
> And did you threaten to leave? If you did, did it help?


I can say that I did not communicate effectively enough. Examples: 

"We only have enough money in the bank for groceries the rest of the month" . Now I guess I should have made it crystal clear by saying "therefore, do not buy any parts for your classic car, that you don't even need" 

"The only thing I care about is that you be a positive person for yourself and the kids. dont you see that being negative is bringing you down". I should have said "don't tear the kids down by saying only negative things to them and around them. Don't pollute their every moment at home with your negativism" 

I didn't threaten to leave. I said I'm leaving and I meant it. I didn't threaten divorce at any time over the years thats not me. Make a decision and take action. 

I don't want to have to threaten someone into making decisions that show proper care and respect for their family. If I have to do that then at a fundamental level it's proof that its not someone that I should be with.


----------



## EleGirl

naiveonedave said:


> the problem is that Men/Mars, Women/Venus and the few women responding to this thread probably had spouses who were more clueless than the average male (this forum is somewhat self selecting people who had or have 'bad' spouses.)


I think that a huge percentage of what we call WAWs have husbands who are seriously clueless.

Of course there are some WAWs who never say a thing about how happy they are. They never express their real thoughts, feelings and needs. They are as clues and the most clues guys.

But there are many women who do express it, they try as had as anyone can to get through with every type of approach that they can think of , that the read about, that counselors suggest.. and the guy is just seriously clueless.

This is the case in a good portion of the WAW cases and in the WAH cases. There are WAHs. We see it on here all the time, too.


----------



## naiveonedave

EleGirl said:


> I think that a huge percentage of what we call WAWs have husbands who are seriously clueless.
> 
> Of course there are some WAWs who never say a thing about how happy they are. They never express their real thoughts, feelings and needs. They are as clues and the most clues guys.
> 
> But there are many women who do express it, they try as had as anyone can to get through with every type of approach that they can think of , that the read about, that counselors suggest.. and the guy is just seriously clueless.
> 
> This is the case in a good portion of the WAW cases and in the WAH cases. There are WAHs. We see it on here all the time, too.


I agree, though my guess is that the amount who 'didn't complain enough' is greater than you think. My W used to bottle stuff up, then explode. We worked through how ineffective that was...


----------



## Jellybeans

coffee4me said:


> I don't want to have to threaten someone into making decisions that show proper care and respect for their family.


:iagree:


----------



## coffee4me

Jellybeans said:


> I was just DONE. I literally had nothing else left in me to give. "Exasperated" doesn't even begin to describe it.


I think most Most spouses who walk away can relate to this. They may have communicated effectively, they may not. They may have relied on body language and eye rolling. But in the end they just got fed up. 

I know it often seems unfair to the person left behind, that somehow they should have gotten a warning, an ultimatum or a chance to fix things. 

I wonder how many walk away with the same thoughts I had. It took me years of dissecting and thinking about the reasons things were not working. In the end my conclusion was that I married the wrong person. I married someone who was not capable of loving or prioritizing life the same way I did. That it was a fundamental difference in personality that he couldn't change. When I finally got that through my thick head and understood it. That's when it was time to go. There is nothing to fix either accept and live with him "as is" or leave. I chose to leave.


----------



## Jellybeans

coffee4me said:


> That it was a fundamental difference in personality that he couldn't change. When I finally got that through my thick head and understood it. That's when it was time to go. There is nothing to fix either accept and live with him "as is" or leave. I chose to leave.


Oh, girl. I think a TON of people can relate to this. Sometimes it just boils down to the fact that you have two very different personalities and one may not recognize what is important to the other and simply, doesn't care. I dated a guy briefly who told me he had an ex who kept doing the same thing that he told him hurt him the most, repeatedly and he had to cut it off. Same idea. When you are hurting and your partner knows this yet continues to do the very thing that you feel/say is hurting you/the relationship the most, it is BAD news. Women are nurturers, we feel and love in different ways and we put up with a whole heck of a lot before we reach the end of our rope - I think that's why when a woman is gone, that't it - game over.


----------



## Wolf1974

coffee4me said:


> I think most Most spouses who walk away can relate to this. They may have communicated effectively, they may not. They may have relied on body language and eye rolling. But in the end they just got fed up.
> 
> I know it often seems unfair to the person left behind, that somehow they should have gotten a warning, an ultimatum or a chance to fix things.
> 
> I wonder how many walk away with the same thoughts I had. It took me years of dissecting and thinking about the reasons things were not working. In the end my conclusion was that I married the wrong person. I married someone who was not capable of loving or prioritizing life the same way I did. That it was a fundamental difference in personality that he couldn't change. When I finally got that through my thick head and understood it. That's when it was time to go. There is nothing to fix either accept and live with him "as is" or leave. I chose to leave.


I think in a nutshell you describe why people label the term walk away. The one spouse didn't recognize the problem or the seriousness of the problem and ignored it. Or felt attacked and shut down on it. Then thier often seems this lull where the person with the complaint stops communicating because nothing changes when they do talk about it so why bother......sometimes years go by and then, like you, something occurs that makes you question why you want to live like this...you don't and who would.

So you decide you're done and check out. No complaints have been brought up for years so the other spouse either thinks things are fine to good then BAM....what the hell do you mean you're unhappy and leaving? where does this come from? So to one spouse felt they fought this battle for years, the other felt they got thrown a grenade from out of no where. For the first time the other spouse wants to work on things cause they are coming from a much more content place. The other is done and just wants out. 

My opinion both are right and both are wrong. But with this you can understand how both sides feel the way they do about it.


----------



## EleGirl

naiveonedave said:


> *I agree, though my guess is that the amount who 'didn't complain enough' is greater than you think. * My W used to bottle stuff up, then explode. We worked through how ineffective that was...


You might be right. We have no way of knowing.

I think that a lot, if not most, people have no idea what their "emotional needs" really are, how to identify them and talk about them.

Instead the talk about stuff like "You keep squeezing the toothpaste the wrong way." Or when their spouse says that, all they hear are the exact words spoken. When in fact it's not about the darn tooth past. It's about something much larger and neither of them can identify what that big thing is and how to fix it.


For example, in my first marriage, my husband turned into a abusive man who constantly picked on everything I did, cheated, etc.

I think that the real issue was that we had still born twins right after our first year in the marriage. He could never get over it and could never stand me after that. I became the cause of his pain. But he could never voice it. Instead he acted it out and took it out on me.


----------



## Rowan

Wolf1974 said:


> I think in a nutshell you describe why people label the term walk away. The one spouse didn't recognize the problem or the seriousness of the problem and ignored it. Or felt attacked and shut down on it. Then thier often seems this lull where the person with the complaint stops communicating because nothing changes when they do talk about it so why bother......sometimes years go by and then, like you, something occurs that makes you question why you want to live like this...you don't and who would.
> 
> So you decide you're done and check out. No complaints have been brought up for years so the other spouse either thinks things are fine to good then BAM....what the hell do you mean you're unhappy and leaving? where does this come from? So to one spouse felt they fought this battle for years, the other felt they got thrown a grenade from out of no where. For the first time the other spouse wants to work on things cause they are coming from a much more content place. The other is done and just wants out.
> 
> My opinion both are right and both are wrong. But with this you can understand how both sides feel the way they do about it.


I think that what a lot of guys miss is that many women will complain about something but stop when it becomes clear that the complaint simply isn't going to be addressed. So, if their wife used to complain about something and has now stopped, they imagine that whatever her issue was must have gotten fixed. Usually, they assume that she finally realized she was just being crazy, or she finally realized it wasn't really that important, or that she just got over it. They think the problem is fixed, even if they never did anything themselves to fix it, because she stopped talking about it. Those guys are almost always wrong.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

That is why I suggest a relationship coach over an MC. Issues like toothpaste, not taking the garbage out, are just symptoms. What makes those little issues grow is the lack of understanding. Someone who keeps forgetting to take out the garbage, the spouse will most likely feeled ignored and not cared about. LOL, I learned this kind of thing from a relationship coach. Whether someone has good communication skills or not, if the partner receiving the transmission has a poor receiver, then what is communicated is void for the most part. Great relationships need both great communicators and receivers from both spouse. If one spouse does not understand what one spouse is communicating, then they can ask to clarify or mirror what they believe what the issues are. Again, those are listening skills.


----------



## EleGirl

Wolf1974 said:


> I think in a nutshell you describe why people label the term walk away. The one spouse didn't recognize the problem or the seriousness of the problem and ignored it. Or felt attacked and shut down on it. Then thier often seems this lull where the person with the complaint stops communicating because nothing changes when they do talk about it so why bother......sometimes years go by and then, like you, something occurs that makes you question why you want to live like this...you don't and who would.
> 
> So you decide you're done and check out. No complaints have been brought up for years so the other spouse either thinks things are fine to good then BAM....what the hell do you mean you're unhappy and leaving? where does this come from? So to one spouse felt they fought this battle for years, the other felt they got thrown a grenade from out of no where. For the first time the other spouse wants to work on things cause they are coming from a much more content place. The other is done and just wants out.
> 
> My opinion both are right and both are wrong. But with this you can understand how both sides feel the way they do about it.


Yes, I can understand that the left behind spouse (for lack of a better term) could feel blind sided if their WAW/H stopped trying to communicate their lack of needs being met for some significant period of time.

When things get quiet, the LBS just thinks that things are ok. They have to problem, so obviously their spouse does not.

What I do not understand is how a spouse (the LBS) can hear years of their spouse trying to talk to them and just shut it out. Sure they take it as an attack and nagging. But if your spouse is attacking you and nagging there is a serious problem .. ADDRESS IT. While it is true that some people are just complainers and naggers, I do thing that most are not. That there is a reason for them trying to communicate something significant.

It boils down to people are different and have different goals. Some people do not have the goal of meeting their spouse's needs, it's their own contentment or avoidance of conflict that are their primary concerns for one reason or the other. Perhaps this is the example of marriage they saw growing up. That is what they expect.

And that is why, staying in a bad marriage for the children is often not a good idea. The children learn to not handle things in a healthy manner. Either put 110% into the marriage and fix it. Or if it cannot be fixed, leave. It's healthier for everyone.


----------



## EleGirl

:iagree:


Mr.Fisty said:


> That is why I suggest a relationship coach over an MC. Issues like toothpaste, not taking the garbage out, are just symptoms. What makes those little issues grow is the lack of understanding. Someone who keeps forgetting to take out the garbage, the spouse will most likely feeled ignored and not cared about. LOL, I learned this kind of thing from a relationship coach. Whether someone has good communication skills or not, if the partner receiving the transmission has a poor receiver, then what is communicated is void for the most part. Great relationships need both great communicators and receivers from both spouse. If one spouse does not understand what one spouse is communicating, then they can ask to clarify or mirror what they believe what the issues are. Again, those are listening skills.


:iagree: QFT... this is why I often suggest the HN/HN and Love busters books. Most people are not even aware of the concepts. They sure helped me clear up a lot in my life.

I'm not sure how easy it is to find a relationship coach. But I too prefer that. Mulling over how awful each other is does not help. Just identify the problems and fix them. Move forward. If they are fixed and both people feel that they are finally being taken seriously and listened to in the marriage, the hurt from the past falls away.


----------



## Jellybeans

I want to read that Lovebuster book. Is it any good, Ele? It's been mentioned to be before.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rowan said:


> I think that what a lot of guys miss is that many women will complain about something but stop when it becomes clear that the complaint simply isn't going to be addressed. So, if their wife used to complain about something and has now stopped, they imagine that whatever her issue was must have gotten fixed. Usually, they assume that she finally realized she was just being crazy, or she finally realized it wasn't really that important, or that she just got over it. They think the problem is fixed, even if they never did anything themselves to fix it, because she stopped talking about it. Those guys are almost always wrong.


It's not just a guy thing. I did similar with a Gf. I told her what was missing, she didn't care, I stopped complaining, she didn't change and I broke it off with her.

On one hand can't make assumptions that quiet = problem gone. Also can't assume mind reading. I don't know anyone man or woman who can do that lol


----------



## Rowan

Wolf1974 said:


> It's not just a guy thing. I did similar with a Gf. I told her what was missing, she didn't care, I stopped complaining, she didn't change and I broke it off with her.
> 
> On one hand can't make assumptions that quiet = problem gone. Also can't assume mind reading. I don't know anyone man or woman who can do that lol


Definitely not just a guy thing. I simply framed it that way due to the discussion being mostly geared around the WAW phenomenon. 

Well, that, and my brother is very fond of telling people that if your wife is complaining, you're probably still okay. But if she goes quiet on you, she's either given up on you or is plotting to kill you - and get away with it. Either way, it's time to be scared.


----------



## Wolf1974

EleGirl said:


> Yes, I can understand that the left behind spouse (for lack of a better term) could feel blind sided if their WAW/H stopped trying to communicate their lack of needs being met for some significant period of time.
> 
> When things get quiet, the LBS just thinks that things are ok. They have to problem, so obviously their spouse does not.
> 
> What I do not understand is how a spouse (the LBS) can hear years of their spouse trying to talk to them and just shut it out. Sure they take it as an attack and nagging. But if your spouse is attacking you and nagging there is a serious problem .. ADDRESS IT. While it is true that some people are just complainers and naggers, I do thing that most are not. That there is a reason for them trying to communicate something significant.
> 
> It boils down to people are different and have different goals. Some people do not have the goal of meeting their spouse's needs, it's their own contentment or avoidance of conflict that are their primary concerns for one reason or the other. Perhaps this is the example of marriage they saw growing up. That is what they expect.
> 
> And that is why, staying in a bad marriage for the children is often not a good idea. The children learn to not handle things in a healthy manner. Either put 110% into the marriage and fix it. Or if it cannot be fixed, leave. It's healthier for everyone.


I will disagree on the not nagging part. That's not been my person experience. I have met a plenty

I can't relate to the someone addressing the problem and the other shutting it out. That's not my style at all and I would communicate. So I don't know why some MEN and WOMEN do that. Long list. 

They don't care, don't get it, don't want to get it, fell out of love never loved at all, passive aggressive, just likes to emotionally beat up on someone snd a spouse is an easy choice.

In my person experience it revolved around a friendship I had that my GF became paranoid and jealous about. I tried all I could to make her see we were just friends. We hung out together, I showed her my texts would tell her when I would get together for lunch and so on. Nothing was ever good enough. What turned from simple communication turned to nagging about it. I'm not much for the shutdown type so we argued. Then it became the only thing we talked about. So we could go out for a dinner and movie and all I would hear about was how she didn't like that I had a female friend.

Finally I laid the ultimatim down...bring this up again and ruin another date and I'm done.

Next date I went to her house to pick her up, in 5 minutes she started in, without a word I walked out.

Course she was shocked....lol. In her cause she just didn't believe the consequence but understood the problem. But each couples story will be different


----------



## Wolf1974

Rowan said:


> Definitely not just a guy thing. I simply framed it that way due to the discussion being mostly geared around the WAW phenomenon.
> 
> Well, that, and my brother is very fond of telling people that if your wife is complaining, you're probably still okay. But if she goes quiet on you, she's either given up on you or is plotting to kill you - and get away with it. Either way, it's time to be scared.


Hmm

I really like that philosophy. :smthumbup:


----------



## Healer

Hypocrisy abounds. I told my ex ww over and over and over again I needed her to stop accusing me of cheating - it went on our entire 14 year marriage. I told her over and over I needed her to trust me, and to stop spending insane amounts of money behind my back. These things NEVER happened.

She comes to me and says she needs A, B, C and D. I said No. You are still accusing me of cheating and treating me like a cheater. Go if you're not happy.

She went alright, right to another man (unbeknownst to me, of course). Her excuse for cheating? "When I came to you and asked you for the changes I needed you said no, so I cheated". Hilarious. Men are no more guilty of not giving the changes requested in a marriage than women are. But somehow we're the ones expected to change, or the wife cheats and walks.


----------



## EleGirl

Healer said:


> Hypocrisy abounds. I told my ex ww over and over and over again I needed her to stop accusing me of cheating - it went on our entire 14 year marriage. I told her over and over I needed her to trust me, and to stop spending insane amounts of money behind my back. These things NEVER happened.
> 
> She comes to me and says she needs A, B, C and D. I said No. You are still accusing me of cheating and treating me like a cheater. Go if you're not happy.
> 
> She went alright, right to another man (unbeknownst to me, of course). Her excuse for cheating? "When I came to you and asked you for the changes I needed you said no, so I cheated". Hilarious. Men are no more guilty of not giving the changes requested in a marriage than women are. *But somehow we're the ones expected to change, or the wife cheats and walks*.


I disagree that men are the ones who are expected to change.

There are men who are WAHs too.

There are women who are just as unhappy in their marriages because their wives will not meet their needs.

The difference is that more women seek out counseling to try to find new ways to communicate to their spouse. So it's talked about the women are talking about it.

When there is a WAW/H both parties are imperfect and both have changes they need to make.


----------



## EleGirl

Jellybeans said:


> I want to read that Lovebuster book. Is it any good, Ele? It's been mentioned to be before.


Yes it is good. Definitely worth the read and doing the work it suggests.


----------



## Healer

EleGirl said:


> The difference is that more women seek out counseling to try to find new ways to communicate to their spouse. So it's talked about the women are talking about it.


Pure speculation.


----------



## EleGirl

Wolf1974 said:


> I will disagree on the not nagging part. That's not been my person experience. I have met a plenty


Yes there are people who are just nags. A person who feels that their SO/spouse is nagging constantly needs to really look at and figure out why. Either your spouse is a basically abusive or they are an underlying issue that needs to be addressed. If they are abusive or you (generic you) do not care to address the underlying issue, or your spouse will not address it with you, it’s time to consider leaving. Just blocking out someone because they are nagging is conflict avoidance and passive aggressive behavior.

My ex-h (son’s father) was like that. He nagged constantly. I could not do anything right. If I used a sponge to clean the counters, I was supposed to use a kitchen rag. If I used a rag, I was supposed to use a sponge. If I cleaned the kitchen, I should have cleaned the bedroom. I would write out pages and pages of his nagging and contradicting nagging.

But I paid attention, not to the exact things he nagged about but tried to find the underlying problem. Sometimes I’d figure it out and be able to change that particular thing. Sometimes I could never figure it out and he was not about to look at himself and do some work to help solve anything.



Wolf1974 said:


> I can't relate to the someone addressing the problem and the other shutting it out. That's not my style at all and I would communicate. So I don't know why some MEN and WOMEN do that. Long list.
> 
> They don't care, don't get it, don't want to get it, fell out of love never loved at all, passive aggressive, just likes to emotionally beat up on someone snd a spouse is an easy choice.
> 
> In my person experience it revolved around a friendship I had that my GF became paranoid and jealous about. I tried all I could to make her see we were just friends. We hung out together, I showed her my texts would tell her when I would get together for lunch and so on. Nothing was ever good enough. What turned from simple communication turned to nagging about it. I'm not much for the shutdown type so we argued. Then it became the only thing we talked about. So we could go out for a dinner and movie and all I would hear about was how she didn't like that I had a female friend.
> 
> Finally I laid the ultimatim down...bring this up again and ruin another date and I'm done.
> 
> Next date I went to her house to pick her up, in 5 minutes she started in, without a word I walked out.
> 
> Course she was shocked....lol. In her cause she just didn't believe the consequence but understood the problem. But each couples story will be different


 There you go.. you were a walk away boyfriend. Sometimes people, like your exgf are just unreasonable and/or are not a good match for you. It would not work for me either.

There are a lot of people here on TAM who think that a person should not ever have an opposite sex friend if in a committed relationship. She might be a much better match for one of them. 

She told you what she needed from you (exclusivity to the point of no opposite sex friends). You might call it nagging, but she was communicating her need to you. And you did not react in a conflict avoidance, passive aggressive manner. You addressed it head on and tied to negotiate and work on it. In the end there was no solution that would work for both of you so you split up.

That's what dating is about.. .to find out if a person is compatible. It worked.


----------



## EleGirl

EleGirl said:


> The difference is that more women seek out counseling to try to find new ways to communicate to their spouse. So it's talked about the women are talking about it.





Healer said:


> Pure speculation.


It is not pure speculation that more women seek out counseling for help with their issues. It's pretty well studied and documented.

And what are counselors and researchers going to write about and talk about? The information they gather form the people who they actually see and talk to.


----------



## Healer

EleGirl said:


> It is not pure speculation that more women seek out counseling for help with their issues. It's pretty well studied and documented.
> 
> And what are counselors and researchers going to write about and talk about? The information they gather form the people who they actually see and talk to.


I don't buy it. You are blatantly saying men are culpable and women are not because women try to fix the problem and men don't.


----------



## Wolf1974

EleGirl said:


> Yes there are people who are just nags. A person who feels that their SO/spouse is nagging constantly needs to really look at and figure out why. Either your spouse is a basically abusive or they are an underlying issue that needs to be addressed. If they are abusive or you (generic you) do not care to address the underlying issue, or your spouse will not address it with you, it’s time to consider leaving. Just blocking out someone because they are nagging is conflict avoidance and passive aggressive behavior.
> 
> My ex-h (son’s father) was like that. He nagged constantly. I could not do anything right. If I used a sponge to clean the counters, I was supposed to use a kitchen rag. If I used a rag, I was supposed to use a sponge. If I cleaned the kitchen, I should have cleaned the bedroom. I would write out pages and pages of his nagging and contradicting nagging.
> 
> But I paid attention, not to the exact things he nagged about but tried to find the underlying problem. Sometimes I’d figure it out and be able to change that particular thing. Sometimes I could never figure it out and he was not about to look at himself and do some work to help solve anything.
> 
> 
> There you go.. you were a walk away boyfriend. Sometimes people, like your exgf are just unreasonable and/or are not a good match for you. It would not work for me either.
> 
> There are a lot of people here on TAM who think that a person should not ever have an opposite sex friend if in a committed relationship. She might be a much better match for one of them.
> 
> She told you what she needed from you (exclusivity to the point of no opposite sex friends). You might call it nagging, but she was communicating her need to you. And you did not react in a conflict avoidance, passive aggressive manner. You addressed it head on and tied to negotiate and work on it. In the end there was no solution that would work for both of you so you split up.
> 
> That's what dating is about.. .to find out if a person is compatible. It worked.


Yep. And I hung on to that longer than I would now. She was my first Gf post divorce. Her issue was little to do with my friend her real issue was she wanted to have control over me in all areas. This was just the one area she could pick at and nag about. 

Another area was she wanted me to basically go to work and then come to her place. Was sweet at first, she was a SAHM, but my house started getting neglected so I would have to stay home sometimes to clean and get stuff taken care of. She would be upset and I offered her anytime to come over and take care of it while I was working but...suprisingly ......she declined. So not much she could continue to say about that. Ahh but the friend thing was something she didn't have to let go of so she kept on with that

Nagging to me is when someone continues to bring up a subject that they already know the answer to. often timeS it is accompanied by increasing pressure and belittling comments. I got those as well. How I didn't love her or respect her or trust her judgement cause she knew my friend was a bad person and on and on. Then I became selfish, and not a real man, and and *******....and so it went

See sometimes people are just grumps and unhappy with all things in life . So they ***** and ***** and are negative. I'm suprised you haven't seen more of this cause I have with both men and women, yes they do tend to complain about different things but nonstop complaining none the less.

I can't deal with constantly negative people. 

But life goes on and I learned. Yes I wouldn't date anyone who had problems with my friends......just turned out she was the only one who did lol


----------



## EnjoliWoman

I was afraid to tell him I was considering leaving because his violence was the biggest part of why I was leaving.

But I did tell him his temper was killing any love in our marriage and then after he lost his temper YET AGAIN when we were driving. He was trying to go to the next street over and I pointed out a street I thought went through and he didn't think it did. He called me stupid or f-ing idiot, I don't recall which - he used both frequently. I turned to him and said "THAT was unnecessary. I don't call you names. Adults don't call each other names. THAT is what is killing our marriage." His response was "I'm sorry I got frustrated but it obviously doesn't go through." (The "but" was always the norm, blaming me for his loss of tempter). So then I asked him to go to marriage counseling and he said "No, it's a waste of money. I'd go to a psychiatrist because they could prescribe medication if there was a chemical problem but I don't have that. They'll just say it's behavioral and I have a bad temper and tell me to stop." 

Verbal abuse is just as bad as physical although he did both and he never listened to me when I told him it was wrong. He heard my words but he did not take them to heart and he did not make an effort to change his behavior. But I knew he was capable because he could certainly control his behavior and words when we were around other people. It was a CHOICE to behave that way and by only doing it when we were alone showed me he KNEW it was wrong but did nothing to change it.


----------



## BlueWoman

This is such an interesting thread for me. 
My Xh thinks I am a very angry person. Claims he was my target. 

And I've been thinking about it...but to me this was how my interactions would go.

Me: We need this to get done...could you do it?
Him: I can take care of it.

A few weeks later:
Me: Did you take of care of X.
Him: I am so absent minded, I forgot. Sorry I'll take care of it. 

A few weeks later when we are facing consequences: 
Me: Why isn't this done yet?
Him: Oh yeah, I forgot...sorry. 

Me: (In a loud yelling voice) Dammit, I need you to do this. Why do I have to get angry to get you to do something. And invariably he would get it done, after I yelled at him. 

The other option is that I just did it myself, and then I was doing everything myself and eventually I would get overwhelmed and get angry. 

So I have anger issues and he's lazy. Probably shouldn't have gotten together in the first place.


----------



## WandaJ

NobodySpecial said:


> My issues were lack of time spent together in favor of gaming or wood shop, finances and housework. He viewed my discussions as nagging. I completely let go of the time issue. It was his to choose how he spent his time. If he did not want to spend it with me, he did not want to spend it with me. So that is clearly not limit setting, but it is still relevant to only pick the must have battles.
> 
> As for housework, he did almost none. Again words were useless because he just really could not see what it took. I stopped doing i for him. I stopped doing his laundry. If I did not feel like cleaning the bathroom, I didn't. The house got dirty and he would complain. I simply did not reply to his complaints. I certainly did not accept the implication that *I* was supposed to clean it up. If I did not feel like cooking dinner, I didn't. When he asked what's for dinner, I said whatever you cook.
> 
> As for money, I took his cell and cancelled the plan (my cell included as part of the debt reduction plan.) I opened a bank account for the amount we had previously agreed to for spending. The rest went into a separate account that he had no access to. (He was spending with complete disregard to bills/budget/agreements.) He did not see any one incident as a "big deal" but also did not mark the summation of the individual instances as a pattern.
> 
> At first, he was rip **** angry. I said I told you I am not living like we have been, and I meant it. This is my last ditch effort to see if you can get it because I am not bringing kids into this. If you need to leave me, then you need to leave me.
> 
> It did not take too long for him to begin to see the reality. He ran out of clean clothes. He started doing laundry. When he started doing laundry, I resumed doing his laundry with mine when I did it. He started cleaning up. And started cooking.
> 
> A few years later, we opened up the accounts because he realized how much he was spending and how much more pleasant not having bill collectors calling was.
> 
> The thing is, he COULD HAVE left. He could have thrown it in. He did not have to respond (eventually) in such a reasonable way. But so what? I was ready to walk away.
> 
> My nagging and bringing up my issues at all STOPPED DEAD at the time of the change. Less conversation was way better. So he stopped feeling irritated at me. And wanted to spend time with me. Appreciated the freedom to decompress in the shop or on the computer.
> 
> That set a new, happier pattern for the next 15 years. We are both glad I did it now.


I guess you did it the way they guys (Wolf?) on other thread suggested: you used a language men can understand. For many women this would be too confrontational, unfortuantley.


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## WandaJ

MachoMcCoy said:


> The motto of the modern marriage.


As we can see, some men (and women) just choose to stay clueless.


----------



## NobodySpecial

WandaJ said:


> I guess you did it the way they guys (Wolf?) on other thread suggested: you used a language men can understand. For many women this would be too confrontational, unfortuantley.


I guess either party can choose to stretch their comfort level to break a viscous cycle.


----------



## WandaJ

EnjoliWoman said:


> I was afraid to tell him I was considering leaving because his violence was the biggest part of why I was leaving.
> 
> But I did tell him his temper was killing any love in our marriage and then after he lost his temper YET AGAIN when we were driving. He was trying to go to the next street over and I pointed out a street I thought went through and he didn't think it did. He called me stupid or f-ing idiot, I don't recall which - he used both frequently. I turned to him and said "THAT was unnecessary. I don't call you names. Adults don't call each other names. THAT is what is killing our marriage." His response was "I'm sorry I got frustrated but it obviously doesn't go through." (The "but" was always the norm, blaming me for his loss of tempter). So then I asked him to go to marriage counseling and he said "No, it's a waste of money. I'd go to a psychiatrist because they could prescribe medication if there was a chemical problem but I don't have that. They'll just say it's behavioral and I have a bad temper and tell me to stop."
> 
> Verbal abuse is just as bad as physical although he did both and he never listened to me when I told him it was wrong. He heard my words but he did not take them to heart and he did not make an effort to change his behavior. But I knew he was capable because he could certainly control his behavior and words when we were around other people. It was a CHOICE to behave that way and by only doing it when we were alone showed me he KNEW it was wrong but did nothing to change it.


That's problem in my marriage. you describe the same dynamic we used to have. I've been telling him from the beginning, that every time he yells at me and/or calls me names, he kills another piece of my love for him. He called this blackmailing. And he always was justified, there was always that "but" , he just had to yell, because.....

things did not start improving until I called for divorce few months ago. it is rocky road, but way better than before.

I have to say, after reading other women here, that Wolf might be onto something when he says we need to talk to them the way men understand. It looks like talking, beginning, suggesting does not work much. But threatening divorce, living dirty laundry somethow gets to them. Frankly, It is depressing. Makes woman responsible for both parts of the equation. No wonder for many of us it is easier to be by ourselves.


----------



## NobodySpecial

WandaJ said:


> That's problem in my marriage. you describe the same dynamic we used to have. I've been telling him from the beginning, that every time he yells at me and/or calls me names, he kills another piece of my love for him. He called this blackmailing. And he always was justified, there was always that "but" , he just had to yell, because.....
> 
> things did not start improving until I called for divorce few months ago. it is rocky road, but way better than before.
> 
> I have to say, after reading other women here, that Wolf might be onto something when he says we need to talk to them the way men understand. It looks like talking, beginning, suggesting does not work much. But threatening divorce, living dirty laundry somethow gets to them. Frankly, It is depressing. Makes woman responsible for both parts of the equation. No wonder for many of us it is easier to be by ourselves.


Consequences. It is sad but it is what it is. My husband is not an angry guy. But telling a guy you are killing my love for you is going to fly right over his head.

Walk away. I will speak to you when you can be civil. Period.


----------



## coffee4me

Wolf1974 said:


> Nagging to me is when someone continues to bring up a subject that they already know the answer to. often timeS it is accompanied by increasing pressure and belittling comments. I got those as well. How I didn't love her or respect her or trust her judgement cause she knew my friend was a bad person and on and on. Then I became selfish, and not a real man, and and *******....and so it went
> 
> See sometimes people are just grumps and unhappy with all things in life . So they ***** and ***** and are negative. I'm suprised you haven't seen more of this cause I have with both men and women, yes they do tend to complain about different things but nonstop complaining none the less.
> 
> I can't deal with constantly negative people.


I admit that I do not respond to nagging and complaining. If that is someone's method of communicating their needs it won't get through to me. I shut it out as noise or respond with my solution and that's done. I fully admit that nagging and complaining brings on a reaction of irritation not a compassionate reaction of wanting to meet someone's needs. My need to shut them up or drown out the noise they are creating in my head is more important to me. 

If there is an issue, present the problem and preferably an actionable solution. If there is no actionable solution stop whining and suck it up.


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## EleGirl

Healer said:


> I don't buy it. You are blatantly saying men are culpable and women are not because women try to fix the problem and men don't.


That is not what I am saying at all.

I said that more women go to couseling. Going to counseling is not the only way to try to figure out how to fix a marriage problem.

Person A goes to a counselor and seeks help/advice to solve a problem in their marriage.

Person B spends time on their own working out a solution to a problem that they see in their marriage. They might even talk to a close friend for input. 

Who is counselor going to talk about when they write an article? Well person A because they know about person a. Their clientele are dozens of people just like person A who happen to be mostly females.

The counselor is not going to talk about person B because the counselor have never spoken to person B. There are also dozens of people just like person B.. who counselors do not write articles about because they do not know persons B.

Both are working to solve their issues, but in different ways.


----------



## EleGirl

coffee4me said:


> I admit that I do not respond to nagging and complaining. If that is someone's method of communicating their needs it won't get through to me. I shut it out as noise or respond with my solution and that's done. I fully admit that nagging and complaining brings on a reaction of irritation not a compassionate reaction of wanting to meet someone's needs. My need to shut them up or drown out the noise they are creating in my head is more important to me.
> 
> If there is an issue, present the problem and preferably an actionable solution. If there is no actionable solution stop whining and suck it up.


So saying "I am not dealing well with not spending any quality time with you. Can setup a weekly date night?"

Is that noise and whining? Or is it direct enough?


----------



## Wolf1974

EleGirl said:


> So saying "I am not dealing well with not spending any quality time with you. Can setup a weekly date night?"
> 
> Is that noise and whining? Or is it direct enough?


Noise perhaps not whining. What I would tell you to say is

We are going out to eat on Saturday night....any input on the place or should I choose.... Direct

Hun I need some quality time. Let's go get something to eat or have a beer This weekend. Sweet and direct 

Nagging sounds like : (angry irratated voice) you never want quality time with me! You don't love me anymore !?!? Are you going you fix that?!?!?!


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## coffee4me

EleGirl said:


> So saying "I am not dealing well with not spending any quality time with you. Can setup a weekly date night?"
> 
> Is that noise and whining? Or is it direct enough?


Honestly depends. How many times did the spouse say it? Not dealing well?? What does that mean? I might think its quality time lying in bed with someone because I work all the time and that feels good to me. Just relaxing with someone. 

It's hard for me to answer that without putting it in the context of my marriage experience. My reaction, 

You want me to take you out once a week? That will cost money and I will have to make arrangements for the kids, once a week. I work 50-60 hours a week (sole breadwinner) write the bills, do the cooking, the shopping, do the lions share of the childcare, clean when you complain about things not being tidy enough, I get up at 5 am and sit down at 10 pm, everyday of my life is a marathon. 

Now you need something else from me once a week? I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that.


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## coffee4me

FF I totally get that. I didn't say it was right. I answered the question the way I would have in the context of my situation. 

If you read my earlier comment where I laid out a need and it was ignored. You see it was a two way street. 

Better I realized that I can't prioritize a person who doesn't prioritize me or the kids. And walk away.


----------



## coffee4me

Duplicate post


----------



## coffee4me

I agree with you it becomes a cycle. You didn't meet my XYZ needs so I don't want or care to meet your XYZ needs. 

Then you live life in a stalemate. Until someone cries uncle and walks.


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## sisters359

The long period of quiet--when the spouse has stopped trying to negotiate compromise--is when that spouse is trying to learn to live with it. Most of my 20 year marriage was spent like that--just putting up with s*it b/c we had kids and I did not think people should get divorced over something that wasn't "huge" like cheating or financial ruin or other types of dishonesty. 

What I didn't realize is that every time my ex said he would "get to" something and then didn't, my trust in him wore away. Then my affection and desire. Then my sense of us as partners. 

And then, a small trigger event--and I was done, done, done. Best decision I ever made--and since I had been taking care of myself in all ways for so long, I lost nothing by making the change except the extra work he made for me. Interesting, while I found I had a lot less to do, he complained constantly of how "complicated" things were and how much work he had to do b/c of the divorce and having to parent/maintain a household by himself. I think that says it all right there.


----------



## EleGirl

coffee4me said:


> Honestly depends. How many times did the spouse say it? Not dealing well?? What does that mean? I might think its quality time lying in bed with someone because I work all the time and that feels good to me. Just relaxing with someone.
> 
> It's hard for me to answer that without putting it in the context of my marriage experience. My reaction,
> 
> You want me to take you out once a week? That will cost money and I will have to make arrangements for the kids, once a week. I work 50-60 hours a week (sole breadwinner) write the bills, do the cooking, the shopping, do the lions share of the childcare, clean when you complain about things not being tidy enough, I get up at 5 am and sit down at 10 pm, everyday of my life is a marathon.
> 
> Now you need something else from me once a week? I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that.


Well your wife needs to worry about you being a WAH. 

But that's not my situation. Here, I'll give you more info and then let me know if it's noise, because just about every man on this thread and the other say it is noise and nagging. It's just a woman being selfish and entitled. 

Now I’ll put it in context of my marriage experience:

I want to spend time with my husband. We are married after all. Surely he can find one evening a week for his wife. 

I am the sole breadwinner. Money is not an object. Plus, dates do not have to cost much. We have relatives in town who will watch our kid. For me, a walk along the river for a few miles, while we hold hands, talk and laugh would be wonderful. He knows this. We used to do it all the time. Sometimes we could go to art crawls at the galleries around town. They are free and serve things like wine and cheese. He loves that. So do I. We used to this kind of thing all the time. 
We have a son.

He is a student. I support him. I pay for his school so he has zero student loan debt… after all this will benefit our family greatly once he’s done.. (That was a big lie I bought into.) 



coffee4me said:


> Now you need something else from me once a week? I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that.


I only wanted one thing from him.. that he spend time with me. He pretended that he did not hear me.

I work 50-60 hours a week (sole breadwinner) write the bills, do the cooking, the shopping, do all of the child care, do all of the housework (he does not have to complain to make me do it). I get up at 6am and get to bed at midnight every night… very day is a marathon.


----------



## EleGirl

Wolf1974 said:


> Noise perhaps not whining. What I would tell you to say is
> 
> We are going out to eat on Saturday night....any input on the place or should I choose.... Direct
> 
> Hun I need some quality time. Let's go get something to eat or have a beer This weekend. Sweet and direct
> 
> Nagging sounds like : (angry irratated voice) you never want quality time with me! You don't love me anymore !?!? Are you going you fix that?!?!?!


:scratchhead:

What you are calling 'noise' and 'whining' came only after many attempt at the kind of things you are suggesting.

It also came after many times of him saying... hey let's go out on Saturday night for dinner.. say 7PM.

Then Saturday comes, he goes over to a friend's house. he does not come home till midnight or later. He and Larry had a great time talking, smoking their pipes, watching football. Or they ended up taking a day trip to check out some historical site. Or something else. He does not recall anything about him asking be to go out to dinner. And this happened over and over and over. So much that I stopped getting ready to go out because I knew he would not remember.

I'm not sure why it's assume here by so many that the owmen on this thread are too stupid or whinny or naggy to do normal things like say...
These are what I’ll call stage 1 statements:
"We are going out to eat on Saturday night....any input on the place or should I choose.... Direct"

"Hun I need some quality time. Let's go get something to eat or have a beer This weekend. Sweet and direct "
Things like 

The below is a stage 2 statement:

"I am not dealing well with not spending any quality time with you. Can setup a weekly date night?"

Come after the other types of things prove to be not heard. 

The below is a stage 3 statement:
Things are not working for me in this marriage. I will not stay married to a man who won’t spend time with me. I’m calling a marriage counselor and I hope you will come to the appointments so we can fix our marriage.

After we go to marriage counseling and he once more blows off the idea of spending time together, 

We get to stage 4:

He comes home and I’m gone.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Anon Pink said:


> I'll answer on one request I had been making for years, words of affirmation. My husband NEVER ever complimented me. I'm not being glib. I thought he never said anything because he never felt anything. I thought he was never pleased enough with me to say something. I was afraid to ask because I was afraid he would admit to not liking the post baby me, the 35 year old me, the 40 year old. I would ask, how do I look, and he would answer, you look nice. But only if I asked first. Then I challenged the word nice. I said, you sound like a 10 years boy being pushed to go tell grandma she looks nice! He said, so what's wrong with that!
> 
> I said, you never compliment me. He said, you don't compliment me either. I said, since you've never complimented me I assumed being complimented wasn't something you cared about. He said it was. I said then why don't you do it? He said he didn't know. Then he said he tells me I look nice.
> 
> 
> Finally at 48, after cancer I flat out told him, I need to hear compliments from you! I need to hear you say nice things, especially when I'm dressed up. I put effort into how I look and I want to know you notice it. He was silent. I kept at it. He began to say thing like, "your hair cut is different. Your hair color is lighter. Your blouse matches your pants." WTF!!!
> 
> I went to happy hour with friends and ran into a guy from childhood and apparently I was his first kiss, funny enough I have no memory of kissing this guy. We laughed and teased and lightly flirted. He said all sorts of lovely things, the kind of things I really wanted to hear from my husband. He asked if I fooled around. I said Nope. We joked about it and I ended up promising hi if I ever decided to have an affair I would give him first crack at my married ass. Wrote it on a ****tail napkin and my friends witnessed it. We laughed hysterically. Went home and to,d my H all about it, almost word for word. He was silent then said..."I should be the one to give you compliments like that." I said no sh!t! But he still didn't compliment me.
> 
> Another time I was showing off a new bra and panty set and was purposely trying to draw out a compliment. He looked and admired with his eye, but only said...nice. I Kaye's down on the bed next to him and posed again and said "say beatiful" he did. "Say sexy" he did. "Say hot" he did. "Say lovely" he did.... On and on I gave him words I longed to hear from him. Still..Nothing changed.
> 
> I threatened divorce. Not just about compliments there were many other issues too. He went to therapy. I spoke to his therapist. They worked on pairing his emotions with words. He got a little better.
> 
> He is still trying to get better, but I've threatened divorce a few times now because he was always backsliding.
> 
> This past Janurary we went to Retrouvaille and he got it. He heard from other women the exact same things I had been saying for years. The exact same words and pleas, but it came from someone else; someone he hadn't decided long ago to ignore. So he heard it, and he got it.


Wow AP, you're married to my wife! I could have wrote this entire post, all the way to the second to last paragraph. That how I know she's a different person, because despite me telling her over and over again that she's never complimented me, she still hasn't and doesn't seem to try. I've completely cut off any compliments to her (which is hard, I have to stop myself) and she seems to notice, she assumes I'm mad at her, but says she doesn't know why.


----------



## Wolf1974

EleGirl said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> What you are calling 'noise' and 'whining' came only after many attempt at the kind of things you are suggesting.
> 
> It also came after many times of him saying... hey let's go out on Saturday night for dinner.. say 7PM.
> 
> Then Saturday comes, he goes over to a friend's house. he does not come home till midnight or later. He and Larry had a great time talking, smoking their pipes, watching football. Or they ended up taking a day trip to check out some historical site. Or something else. He does not recall anything about him asking be to go out to dinner. And this happened over and over and over. So much that I stopped getting ready to go out because I knew he would not remember.
> 
> I'm not sure why it's assume here by so many that the owmen on this thread are too stupid or whinny or naggy to do normal things like say...
> These are what I’ll call stage 1 statements:
> "We are going out to eat on Saturday night....any input on the place or should I choose.... Direct"
> 
> "Hun I need some quality time. Let's go get something to eat or have a beer This weekend. Sweet and direct "
> Things like
> 
> The below is a stage 2 statement:
> 
> "I am not dealing well with not spending any quality time with you. Can setup a weekly date night?"
> 
> Come after the other types of things prove to be not heard.
> 
> The below is a stage 3 statement:
> Things are not working for me in this marriage. I will not stay married to a man who won’t spend time with me. I’m calling a marriage counselor and I hope you will come to the appointments so we can fix our marriage.
> 
> After we go to marriage counseling and he once more blows off the idea of spending time together,
> 
> We get to stage 4:
> 
> He comes home and I’m gone.



Not everything is your previous marriage. You asked the question so I gave my opinion on it. Dismiss it as you see fit or be open to other experiences and view points your choice


----------



## EleGirl

Wolf1974 said:


> Not everything is your previous marriage. You asked the question so I gave my opinion on it. Dismiss it as you see fit or be open to other experiences and view points your choice


Of course everything is not my previous marriage. I only use it as an example just as coffee4me used his experience as an example. 

The OP asks:

“I would like to hear from women how clear they have been about the issues

Can you give some examples of things you have asked for and how you stated it.


And did you threaten to leave? If you did, did it help?”

It’s not about everything ever said. It’s about what was said when being ignored and neglected got to be a catastrophic problem in the relationship. It’s about how clear were the women and did they give an ultimatum.

So women have been posting examples of very clear things they said. My point was that the statement I gave that you is an example of being very clear once the 

And the women are being told that whatever they said and did not clear enough or it’s noise/nagging.


----------



## Anon Pink

WorkingOnMe said:


> Wow AP, you're married to my wife! I could have wrote this entire post, all the way to the second to last paragraph. That how I know she's a different person, because despite me telling her over and over again that she's never complimented me, she still hasn't and doesn't seem to try. I've completely cut off any compliments to her (which is hard, I have to stop myself) and she seems to notice, she assumes I'm mad at her, but says she doesn't know why.


I have to say WOM, now that my H and u have turned the corner and we are really connecting and being much more successful at meeting each other's needs, I think it is a control thing. I don't fully understand it but I think in my H's case, it was due to his resentment that he just wasn't fully aware enough to recognize.

Knowing your many posts about your relationship with your wife, I believe that might be her issue too.

Have no ideas on how to get around it, except to make contact with the resentment she has. The "truceful" marriage is a breeding ground for resentment because love doesn't do a truce. For whatever reason, she's angry but she's not bringing it to you to examine it and clear it up. And if she swears she s not angry, she's full of sh!t and you can tell her I said it!


----------



## Wolf1974

Or that they simply are bad guys who no matter what you said or asked for was going to fall on deaf and uncaring ears. Much like my x was a cheater. Nothing was going to keep her faithful. She had zero incentive In her mind to be faithful.

Point being thst all bets are off when you're married to an asshat male or female. But not ALL men or women on the planet are asshats. Sometimes many other things get bogged down when we try and communicate things. You used a singluar statement about wanting quality time with a spouse. Me personally as a man I have no idea what that really mean. Quality time together, quality time talking, quality time doing a hobby? What. So no I don't think its the best statement to use. I suggested others that I have seen work before. But again only works when two spouses actually give a crap about one another. Nothing I have said in this thread or the other about effective communication has any bearing when dealing with asshats. I made that point several times. I refer only to the marriages where two people care but aren't on the same page


----------



## EleGirl

Wolf1974 said:


> You used a singluar statement about wanting quality time with a spouse. Me personally as a man I have no idea what that really mean. Quality time together, quality time talking, quality time doing a hobby? What. So no I don't think its the best statement to use.


I was clear what quality time meant: a weekly date night. I gave a solution: a weekly date night.

"I am not dealing well with not spending any quality time with you. Can setup a weekly date night?"

Surely you now what a date is????




Wolf1974 said:


> Or that they simply are bad guys who no matter what you said or asked for was going to fall on deaf and uncaring ears. Much like my x was a cheater. Nothing was going to keep her faithful. She had zero incentive In her mind to be faithful.
> 
> Point being thst all bets are off when you're married to an asshat male or female. But not ALL men or women on the planet are asshats. Sometimes many other things get bogged down when we try and communicate things. You used a singluar statement about wanting quality time with a spouse. Me personally as a man I have no idea what that really mean. Quality time together, quality time talking, quality time doing a hobby? What. So no I don't think its the best statement to use. I suggested others that I have seen work before. *But again only works when two spouses actually give a crap about one another.* Nothing I have said in this thread or the other about effective communication has any bearing when dealing with asshats. I made that point several times. I refer only to the marriages where two people care but aren't on the same page


The bolded is what I believe and what many have told me on these threads that is wrong… that a person who, on a regular basis, ignores their spouse when their spouse beings up a problem does not care about their spouse.


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## Wolf1974

EleGirl said:


> I was clear what quality time meant: a weekly date night. I gave a solution: a weekly date night.
> 
> "I am not dealing well with not spending any quality time with you. Can setup a weekly date night?"
> 
> Surely you now what a date is????
> 
> what a date is sure but if he doesn't care about spending time then he will be a no show or a something came up last second. So again your back to one spouse doesn't give a crap about the other. Communication doesn't work with these people
> 
> 
> The bolded is what I believe and what many have told me on these threads that is wrong… that a person who, on a regular basis, ignores their spouse when their spouse beings up a problem does not care about their spouse.


That would be my understanding as well. If i KNEW my spouse was unhappy and I didn't care about her I don't suppose I would want to communicate or spend time with her either

That's not really my style but I know some do this


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## EleGirl

Wolf1974 said:


> what a date is sure but if he doesn't care about spending time then he will be a no show or a something came up last second. So again your back to one spouse doesn't give a crap about the other. Communication doesn't work with these people



I agree. And this why we have WAW/H's.. They have spouses who could really care less.

Sure the LBS might be shocked and suddenly realize what they are losing. But until a catastrophic event they did not care.




Wolf1974 said:


> That would be my understanding as well. If i KNEW my spouse was unhappy and I didn't care about her I don't suppose I would want to communicate or spend time with her either
> 
> That's not really my style but I know some do this


Yep.


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## aine

EleGirl said:


> I agree. And this why we have WAW/H's.. They have spouses who could really care less.
> 
> Sure the LBS might be shocked and suddenly realize what they are losing. But until a catastrophic event they did not care.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep.


Agreed, they don't really care enough to put in effort because the assumption is that the other person will just continue to make noise but still be around, so they 'manage' the noise. Only when the other person turns on the serious guns they wake up. It arises due to:
1. Miscommunication (sometimes)
2. Prioritizing their own needs first (my needs are met so what the hell) as they are selfish/self centred
3. They know there is a problem but don't know how to deal or approach the solution, so evade or run away from the issues (my husband said he is doing this). Mature not!
4. they really dont give a damn and are not bothered either way (but dont like to 'lose' or be inconvenienced)


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Reading through the men's forum, I wonder how many complaints are chalked up to a "sh$t test". My H uses other phrases as he doesn't know about ST but it boils down to the same thing.

Thinking we are testing or playing games when we are really communicating a need. I know, at least in the past, H has said he is reluctant to do the things I ask because he doesn't want to be "p*ssy whipped" Lovely. 
So he thought if he substituted for something else it would be a win/win (It's not) 

The car hobby thread is an interesting example. She might be just totally selfish and needy OR she could be trying to communicate a need. If it's the second, responding as though it's a test or that she's just irrational and to put her in her place is going to lead to more problems.


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## Jellybeans

Wolf1974 said:


> But again *only works when two spouses actually give a crap about one another. * Nothing I have said in this thread or the other about effective communication has any bearing when dealing with asshats.


This is really it.



aine said:


> Agreed, they don't really care enough to put in effort because the assumption is that the other person will just continue to make noise but still be around, so they 'manage' the noise.


:iagree:


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## Wolf1974

EleGirl said:


> I agree. And this why we have WAW/H's.. They have spouses who could really care less.
> 
> Sure the LBS might be shocked and suddenly realize what they are losing. But until a catastrophic event they did not care.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep.


Yes but I don't agree this is the case 100% of the time leaving a spouse shocked they are getting left. I think more often than not much of it boils down to bad communication and from that one spouse checks out. But both do still care about one another just aren't on the same page about things


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## coffee4me

EleGirl said:


> Well your wife needs to worry about you being a WAH.
> 
> But that's not my situation. Here, I'll give you more info and then let me know if it's noise, because just about every man on this thread and the other say it is noise and nagging. It's just a woman being selfish and entitled.


I realize how someone could read my post and think I'm a man  but I'm female and I did walk away from a 25 year relationship. 

The situation you described above sounds like he didn't want to spend time with you. I don't buy that he forgot if he's out with his buddies when he's supposed to be on a date with you then he prefers to be with his buddies. Sounds like he had more than enough free hours in a day to do what he wanted and none to do what you wanted.


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## coffee4me

Wolf1974 said:


> Yes but I don't agree this is the case 100% of the time leaving a spouse shocked they are getting left. I think more often than not much of it boils down to bad communication and from that one spouse checks out. But both do still care about one another just aren't on the same page about things


Agree!


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## NobodySpecial

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Reading through the men's forum, I wonder how many complaints are chalked up to a "sh$t test". My H uses other phrases as he doesn't know about ST but it boils down to the same thing.
> 
> Thinking we are testing or playing games when we are really communicating a need. I know, at least in the past, H has said he is reluctant to do the things I ask because he doesn't want to be "p*ssy whipped" Lovely.
> So he thought if he substituted for something else it would be a win/win (It's not)


The thing that makes it interesting is that these problems don't happen in a vacuum, and there is no objective right. He is not required to agree to meet every communicated "need". He has the ability to use his own judgement and set his own boundaries. Fitness tests are real. 

It is not all that uncommon for women to think that they CAN dictate all these behavior changes, leaving the guy to think what they hell is wrong with the guy you married.

It winds up a complicated muddle. He winds up resentful because he feels pushed around and unappreciated. She winds up resentful because she feels he does not listen. 

The best advice for anyone who wants to change the game is to limit the game changing to the MUST HAVES. Must haves better not involve things like sponges!


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## Mr.Fisty

Dysfunction plays a role as well. Being physically and emotionally abuse since age 5 to an alcoholic father, I was pretty much emotionally stunted. Growing up in that environment, I was beaten until I stop crying, and well, I did not know how to express emotional pain that well as an adolescent. If anyone's has read up on DevastatedAndLost's thread, her husband values her pain and emotions less. He does not want to deal with it, even though his infidelity is the source of her pain. He complains that she keeps bringing up her pain and how she feels. Hypothetically, if she had a RA in return, there is a high probability that he would like to talk about his emotions. When she talked to another man about her issues, her husband all of a sudden starts talking about how hurt he is and the pain he is going through is equal to hers. In this case it is about how much value they place in their spouse's issues. He cares, as he was afraid of her leaving him so he did make changes to his behavior.

Here is another example. spouse "A" cares about living in a clean home, and spouse "B", does not care as much. There is a difference in value. Spouse "A" will be more motivated to keep the home clean, while spouse "B", is less motivated to keep it clean. This was the case with me and my ex. I grew up as a parental role for my baby brother. I grew up with the habit of keeping things clean. That value was instilled in me. My ex was another matter completely. She party a lot and her home compared to mine is different as well. I am neat and orderly and she was sloppy.

Other dysfunctions includes conflict avoiders, emotionally walled people, and whatever other issues.

Here is an article on male and female brains.
How Men's Brains Are Wired Differently Than Women's

Pretty much, females have an advantage in general when it comes to relationship skills, but our brains are plastic enough where a male can develop those skills as well. Men also have less emotional control. The area of the female brain that controls anger and aggression is larger in female brains. This correlates to the study in which males are more likely to walk out of a therapist's session and less likely to return. But generally does not mean always. Males are more likely to be physicist and engineers. Some males have female-like qualities and some females have male like qualities. Some men are better nurturers than their wives.

Whatever the case, if one spouse wants to save the marriage, they may have to initially do the heavy lifting at first. Life is not fair, and one spouse will put in more hard work when it comes to the relationship. Just like I did not ask to be an abuse victim, nonetheless, I had to put in the hard work to undo those issues. Perhaps we should have communication and listening skills taught to us as teenagers.


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## EleGirl

coffee4me said:


> I realize how someone could read my post and think I'm a man  but I'm female and I did walk away from a 25 year relationship.
> 
> The situation you described above sounds like he didn't want to spend time with you. I don't buy that he forgot if he's out with his buddies when he's supposed to be on a date with you then he prefers to be with his buddies. Sounds like he had more than enough free hours in a day to do what he wanted and none to do what you wanted.


It's that little guy on your coffee mug. ....LOL 

I agree, he did not want to spend time with me. I too do not buy that he forgot. At the time he would bring up let's do this or that, I have no doubt that he was thinking it was a good idea. But by the time the day came, that was not what he wanted to do so he left to hang out with his buddies.

This is was on the reasons I am no longer married. Actions speak louder than words. He was not married for companionship. He was married to get whatever he could out of me to make his life easier.

Just taking about WAW/H type situations when one spouse is saying I want to spend time together and the other can never seem to do it, and instead goes on to do things like hang out with friends, spend time on the computer doing whatever, spending time on their other hobbies.... they do not make the time to spend with their spouse because they do not want to. Period, that's the bottom line.

People who do not respond in a way to work on and fix issues their spouse has do not do it because that's not what they want to do. That is the bottom line.

Sure when the WAW/H leaves or gives an ultimatum that they will stand behind, suddenly the LBS wakes up and realizes that to keep their marriage they have to get off their duff. Some will make changes. Some do not care enough to actually make changes.


----------



## EleGirl

Wolf1974 said:


> Yes but I don't agree this is the case 100% of the time leaving a spouse shocked they are getting left. I think more often than not much of it boils down to bad communication and from that one spouse checks out. But both do still care about one another just aren't on the same page about things


Communication has two elements.. the person talking and the person listening.

Where the breakdown occurs is unique to every couple.

A person (WAW/H) does not check out until, after years of trying everything they can to engage the LBS to work on issues.

The WAW/H checks out because they have been taught by the LBS that nothing they do or say will lead to the LBS actually paying attention and work to address the issue.

That is the definition of WAW/H.


----------



## EleGirl

NobodySpecial said:


> The thing that makes it interesting is that these problems don't happen in a vacuum, and there is no objective right. He is not required to agree to meet every communicated "need". He has the ability to use his own judgement and set his own boundaries. Fitness tests are real.
> 
> It is not all that uncommon for women to think that they CAN dictate all these behavior changes, leaving the guy to think what they hell is wrong with the guy you married.
> 
> It winds up a complicated muddle. He winds up resentful because he feels pushed around and unappreciated. She winds up resentful because she feels he does not listen.
> 
> The best advice for anyone who wants to change the game is to limit the game changing to the MUST HAVES. Must haves better not involve things like sponges!


I agree with the above. the one thing that I would change is using genders here. It can happen both ways.

I agree, no has to change their behaviors to meet their spouses needs.

It does help to pick your battles carefully and pick only a very few major ones.

A person who does not want to change their actions at their spouse's request would do a lot better to just say it. 

"No I will not make time to have weekly dates. I prefer doing anything but spend time with you." 

"No, I'm not going to do dishes."
"No, I am not going to do things to improve our sex life."
"Stop asking me for xyz. I'm happy with the marriage as it is."

Then it is clear that the person will not do it and the requesting spouse can decide what to do based on that.

When a person does not clearly state what they will or will not do, the other is left with mixed messages which leaves them with some choices... 

1) keep trying to find a way to communicate.

2) accept that the other is giving the silent treatment or the self defense treatment and accept that. This leads to the future WAW/H pulling away. 

3) Accept that the LBS will not attempt to understand and will not negotiate changes with the WAW/H's and that if the things requested, the unmeet needs are deal breakers, that leaving is in order.


----------



## naiveonedave

EleGirl said:


> Communication has two elements.. the person talking and the person listening.
> 
> Where the breakdown occurs is unique to every couple.
> 
> A person (WAW/H) does not check out until, after years of trying everything they can to engage the LBS to work on issues.
> 
> The WAW/H checks out because they have been taught by the LBS that nothing they do or say will lead to the LBS actually paying attention and work to address the issue.
> 
> That is the definition of WAW/H.


it still is a two way street. In some cases you have no communication and in others the 'hearer' refuses to hear or act. The WAW/H needs to figure out if the spouse heard or not. They should not assume that they were heard, even after years. Especially if they only used the same style all the time.


----------



## EleGirl

naiveonedave said:


> it still is a two way street. In some cases you have no communication and in others the 'hearer' refuses to hear or act. The WAW/H needs to figure out if the spouse heard or not. They should not assume that they were heard, even after years. Especially if they only used the same style all the time.


Ok, a WAW/H should spend years, decades trying every method of communication imaginable to try to find their spouses secret code.

According to you the listener has no obligation to communicate and work with the speaker to learn what the speaker is trying to say.

What you are suggesting is that the listener, in a marriage, has zero obligation to listen to what their spouse says. I disagree.

Some things needs to addressed in the present. 

A spouse who is doing everything to the point of exhaustion, asks for help year after year will burn out. They will most likely eventually leave because of burn out.

A person whose spouse will not spend time with them will eventually lose their bond/love for the other. That is human biology. They will eventually leave.

If the speaker has an obligation to find the listeners secret code. The listener has an obligation to find the speakers secrete code.

They are married. That comes with an obligation to take care of each other.


----------



## NobodySpecial

One of the things that both of you are re-making clear to me is how HARD we try to get our own way/thoughts/feelings understood. One other nugget of wisdom to the great Doug of usenet history, we need to try 5 times as hard to understand the communication/ needs of our partner. We already know our own needs. We speak through our own filters and hear through our own filters. But we don't know our partner's.

So Elle, one thing I would ask, did you ever try to figure out WHY he did not like hanging out with him vs communitalking at him?


----------



## naiveonedave

EleGirl said:


> Ok, a WAW/H should spend years, decades trying every method of communication imaginable to try to find their spouses secret code.
> 
> According to you the listener has no obligation to communicate and work with the speaker to learn what the speaker is trying to say.
> 
> What you are suggesting is that the listener, in a marriage, has zero obligation to listen to what their spouse says. I disagree.
> 
> Some things needs to addressed in the present.
> 
> A spouse who is doing everything to the point of exhaustion, asks for help year after year will burn out. They will most likely eventually leave because of burn out.
> 
> A person whose spouse will not spend time with them will eventually lose their bond/love for the other. That is human biology. They will eventually leave.
> 
> If the speaker has an obligation to find the listeners secret code. The listener has an obligation to find the speakers secrete code.
> 
> They are married. That comes with an obligation to take care of each other.


I hear you, but....

At some point before the resentment gets too deep, a potential WAW/H should be saying something to the effect of "this changes or I am filing. Do you understand?" In your case, I bet you said that or something similar to ensure they got the message, in other cases, I bet not. That is why the spouse is shocked when it happens.

It is always on the talker to make sure the audience gets the message. I learned that in 7th grade speech 30 years ago. The other spouse clearly didn't get something for it get where it is now, why is that? they either didn't hear or chose to not act. But until you confirm they got the message, how do you know?


----------



## naiveonedave

btw - him bailing on you is a problem. He probably should not have needed you to tell him, but maybe he was broken and needed a 2x4. I get why this drove you away, it is on him. 

Did he see you leaving as a shock? If so, was it because he figured you were milk toast or did he not hear the message?


----------



## EleGirl

NobodySpecial said:


> One of the things that both of you are re-making clear to me is how HARD we try to get our own way/thoughts/feelings understood. One other nugget of wisdom to the great Doug of usenet history, we need to try 5 times as hard to understand the communication/ needs of our partner. We already know our own needs. We speak through our own filters and hear through our own filters. But we don't know our partner's.
> 
> So Elle, one thing I would ask, did you ever try to figure out WHY he did not like hanging out with him vs communitalking at him?


Yes I did try to find out. 

I asked him. For a long time he denied that he did not want to do things with me. (contrary to his actions)

I got him to go to counseling.. the first time we went for a while but would not go talk about anything. 

The last time, in the very first session he yelled saying that the only thing he would do with me was spend time as a family with our son. Then he got up and walked out.

He was very critical and would complain about everything I did. things like if I used a sponge to clean the counter, I should use a rag. If I used a rag, I should have used a sponge. He was just angry.

What do I think it was? His FOO was awful. His father and mother were in an arranged marriage. His father used her as a servant. He even brought his mistress home for dinner and his wife had to cook and serve them. Yes this was in the USA.

His father had a PHD in physics and was a professor. His mistresses were students when he was getting his PD and later professors as well. 

His mother was an uneducated girl from an Italian farm family. The marriage was arranged by the grandmothers in the old country. The father went there, married her and brought her back to the USA. His mother did eventually divorce his father. 

My take? The version of marriage he learned growing up is that a husband looked down on and mistreated his wife. I did not realize what significance his FOO would have on him when we dated. We dated for 5 years. At that time he was nothing like he became after marriage.

By the end of our marriage I found out that he cheated constantly. Being in medical school and residency made it easy to get away with.


----------



## EleGirl

naiveonedave said:


> btw - him bailing on you is a problem.


What do you mean "bailing on me?" what are you referring to?



naiveonedave said:


> He probably should not have needed you to tell him, but maybe he was broken and needed a 2x4. I get why this drove you away, it is on him. ?


I believe now that he is broken. Hind sight and all.

I used more than one size board.. 2x4, 2x6, and base ball bats.. (figuratively of course) but nothing worked.

There have been some posters on the other thread saying that often these guys (and women) are broken and so need sympathy.




naiveonedave said:


> Did he see you leaving as a shock? If so, was it because he figured you were milk toast or did he not hear the message?


Yes he was shocked when I left... Both times.

The first time was a 2x6 (figuratively speaking) 

the second time I left for good. After the dust settled he tried to talk me into getting back with him. I would not even consider it.

I was done.


----------



## Wolf1974

EleGirl said:


> Communication has two elements.. the person talking and the person listening.
> 
> Where the breakdown occurs is unique to every couple.
> 
> A person (WAW/H) does not check out until, after years of trying everything they can to engage the LBS to work on issues.
> 
> The WAW/H checks out because they have been taught by the LBS that nothing they do or say will lead to the LBS actually paying attention and work to address the issue.
> 
> That is the definition of WAW/H.


That's a definition of bad or no communication. I was always told that a WAW/ H was a term used to define a spouse who leaves a marriage and the other spouse left behind has no clue why that happend. It is the "left behind" spouse who gives that descriptive not the one leaving. The one leaving, right or wrong, always has some justification to thier mind why they are leaving


----------



## EleGirl

Wolf1974 said:


> That's a definition of bad or no communication. I was always told that a WAW/ H was a term used to define a spouse who leaves a marriage and the other spouse left behind has no clue why that happend. It is the "left behind" spouse who gives that descriptive not the one leaving. The one leaving, right or wrong, always has some justification to thier mind why they are leaving


:scratchhead:


I feel like this is going in circles. 

The WAW/H syndrome has two components because there are two people involved.

The WAW/H feels that they have tried everything possible for years/decades to get their spouse to understand that they are not happy with the marriage and that they need to work to fix it. Eventually the WAW/H gives up and stops trying to get their spouse engaged in fixing the problems they see, because they have now learned that their spouse just will not work on fixing thing. 

The LBS does not pay attention for years/decades. For want ever reason they have for ignoring their spouse. then when the spouse goes silent they think everything is really great.

So when the WAW/H leaves, the LBS is shocked thinking that their spouse was happy now because they were no longer "nagging".

That is what the WAW/H syndrome is.

What contributes to it? Communications problems? A spouse you is fine with the marriage and does not take the other seriously? One or both are also '"broken" (whatever broken means)

I think it's a mix and the percentage of mix varies for each couple.


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## lifeistooshort

I think the term WAW is greatly overused, but I suppose it depends on how it's defined. I would tell you that very, very few women just up and leave without a hint that anything was bothering them. I suppose there could be a few, but most of the time hubby ignores it for a variety of reasons. If you define it as a case where a guy didn't think she would leave and she did maybe I can see it, but even then I have trouble with it. It tells me that many guys don't see an issue if something bothers their wife as long as they don't think she's leaving and they're getting sex; why should it take leaving or not getting sex for a guy to care that his wife is unhappy? Even then here on TAM he's told she's selfish and he has needs so he should inform her of the consequences of not putting out, and her leaving must be the consequence of another man because that's the only way women leave. But even if that's true it's a consequence of the underlying issue. This article does a very good job of explaining why it's usually too late when hubby realizes he's about to lose something and decides he now wants to work on things:

https://coachjackito.com/blog/i-changed-wife-come-back/

People are fond of pointing to marriage vows but what they are really conveniently pointing to are the ones that promise to stay married. They conveniently forget about the other vows that include love and cherish. As the article points out, if it takes her leaving for a guy to bother that's interpreted as being for him, not her. I want my husband to be happy because he's my husband, not because I think he will leave. Even if I knew for a fact he wasn't going to leave it would still bother me if he was unhappy.

I told my ex many times that I was unhappy and his response was that he was happy so it was my problem. Also that others would love to have my life so I should stop complaining. Yet when I left he was shocked and would probably tell you I was a WAW. Not true at all, he just wasn't interested in what bothered me until it affected HIM, meaning when I left. Oh yeah, and when I started turning him down for sex. But even then it wasn't really about what bothered me, it was about him and what he was entitled to. You have to pay attention to what your wife tells you even if you don't think she'll leave.


----------



## Wolf1974

EleGirl said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> 
> *I feel like this is going in circles. *
> 
> The WAW/H syndrome has two components because there are two people involved.
> 
> The WAW/H feels that they have tried everything possible for years/decades to get their spouse to understand that they are not happy with the marriage and that they need to work to fix it. Eventually the WAW/H gives up and stops trying to get their spouse engaged in fixing the problems they see, because they have now learned that their spouse just will not work on fixing thing.
> 
> The LBS does not pay attention for years/decades. For want ever reason they have for ignoring their spouse. then when the spouse goes silent they think everything is really great.
> 
> So when the WAW/H leaves, the LBS is shocked thinking that their spouse was happy now because they were no longer "nagging".
> 
> That is what the WAW/H syndrome is.
> 
> What contributes to it? Communications problems? A spouse you is fine with the marriage and does not take the other seriously? One or both are also '"broken" (whatever broken means)
> 
> I think it's a mix and the percentage of mix varies for each couple.


Usually Only one gives the definition and it's usually the one left behind. I consider my x wife a walk away wife. She left our family 
For no good reason ....was her choice and I have called her walk away before. She definitely doesn't think she walked away. She all kinda rationalized her reason for leaving. So we do not chare our definition of what happend and I think that's pretty common.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Wolf1974 said:


> Usually Only one gives the definition and it's usually the one left behind. I consider my x wife a walk away wife. She left our family
> For no good reason ....was her choice and I have called her walk away before. She definitely doesn't think she walked away. She all kinda rationalized her reason for leaving. So we do not chare our definition of what happend and I think that's pretty common.



Who gets to decide what constitutes a good reason? This is a $64,000 question. I'm sure there are things most reasonable people would agree are stupid reasons to leave a marriage but ultimately everyone gets decide for themselves. There are people who think you're out of your selfish mind to leave an otherise good marriage over lack of sex yet that's encouraged here all the time and with good reason. But it still begs the question as to who gets to decide what is a good reason.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wolf1974

lifeistooshort said:


> Who gets to decide what constitutes a good reason? This is a $64,000 question. I'm sure there are things most reasonable people would agree are stupid reasons to leave a marriage but ultimately everyone gets decide for themselves. There are people who think you're out of your selfish mind to leave an otherise good marriage over lack of sex yet that's encouraged here all the time and with good reason. But it still begs the question as to who gets to decide what is a good reason.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


the individual person does

Hence

The issue

That or you can go after 3rd party reasonable opinion to qualify who was right and who was wrong I Suppose


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## EleGirl

Wolf1974 said:


> Usually Only one gives the definition and it's usually the one left behind. I consider my x wife a walk away wife. She left our family
> For no good reason ....was her choice and I have called her walk away before. She definitely doesn't think she walked away. She all kinda rationalized her reason for leaving. So we do not chare our definition of what happend and I think that's pretty common.


Yes, for an individual couple each person will give their own definition. Your definition is yours. Your wife's is hers.

But when talking about WAW/H syndrome, there is a definition. That is what I was taking about.


----------



## Wolf1974

EleGirl said:


> Yes, for an individual couple each person will give their own definition. Your definition is yours. Your wife's is hers.
> 
> But when talking about WAW/H syndrome, there is a definition. That is what I was taking about.


And I was talking about the perception of each spouse. That's the only thing that matters is what the couples perception is


----------



## naiveonedave

EleGirl said:


> What do you mean "bailing on me?" what are you referring to?


Ignoring you, going out with buddies, all that. Sorry the confusion, I thought that was a common way of saying leaving you alone.


----------



## EleGirl

naiveonedave said:


> Ignoring you, going out with buddies, all that. Sorry the confusion, I thought that was a common way of saying leaving you alone.


Ok it makes sense... it is a way to say that.. but for some reason it did not click in my head.


----------



## scatty

Forgive me for not reading every post, but I will give my 2 cents (it's worth every penny!) 

These are the reasons I would be a WAW: 
- Abuse.
- Hubby putting kids/family/friends/hobbies (anything besides his health) before me.
- Failure to communicate with me, my needs falling on deaf ears for a long period of time (maybe could try 6 months of trying to get through.)
- Confiding in ANYONE about our marriage besides me, a therapist/MC, a diary or an anonymous forum.

I hope my answer was appropriate to the thread, I really am a little "scatty" today!


----------



## Racer

I know bad examples via my wife. It is impossible for me to tell how big of a deal it is or not. Most everything is presented as a big deal with various types of tantrums. And sometimes, actually more often, the big deal dealbreaker stuff really bothering her is downplayed or she starts excusing my behavior. 

It’s mental game playing…. Guys don’t do that well. Most guys actually call it “woman speak”. For whatever reason, my experience is that women have no idea how to phrase or ask a question because they use rhetorical questions entirely too much in normal conversation.

It is that same way that instead of directly saying “Would you pick up our daughter at 2:30 tomorrow?” you feel compelled to say “What are you doing tomorrow afternoon?”, waiting for the answer (which doesn’t matter because that question was never the f’n point), so you could ask the real favor. 

So when we hear “Do you love me?” most guys guts fall to the floor because we’ve know something bad is going to come out of your mouth next to ‘prove it’. You may well think that is how you might ask us to discuss how much we love you, but instead you’ve trained us to believe that is a ‘opener’ for whatever the hell you want us to do. I’m not sure how you undo that training because we no longer hear those words as a real question as much as just an opening statement.


----------



## EleGirl

Racer said:


> I know bad examples via my wife. It is impossible for me to tell how big of a deal it is or not. Most everything is presented as a big deal with various types of tantrums. And sometimes, actually more often, the big deal dealbreaker stuff really bothering her is downplayed or she starts excusing my behavior.
> 
> It’s mental game playing…. Guys don’t do that well. Most guys actually call it “woman speak”. For whatever reason, my experience is that women have no idea how to phrase or ask a question because they use rhetorical questions entirely too much in normal conversation.
> 
> It is that same way that instead of directly saying “Would you pick up our daughter at 2:30 tomorrow?” you feel compelled to say “What are you doing tomorrow afternoon?”, waiting for the answer (which doesn’t matter because that question was never the f’n point), so you could ask the real favor.
> 
> So when we hear “Do you love me?” most guys guts fall to the floor because we’ve know something bad is going to come out of your mouth next to ‘prove it’. You may well think that is how you might ask us to discuss how much we love you, but instead you’ve trained us to believe that is a ‘opener’ for whatever the hell you want us to do. I’m not sure how you undo that training because we no longer hear those words as a real question as much as just an opening statement.


I'm sorry that your wife is like that. But all women are not like your wife. We do not all talk in the same manner or thing in the same way.. Nor do all men speak in the same manner or thing in the same way. Not by a long shot. 

Women on this thread have given examples of very direct things that they told their spouse. So why we keep getting posts telling us that men are right in ignoring when their wife brings up real issues, in a very clear way, is beyond me.


----------



## Racer

EleGirl said:


> Women on this thread have given examples of very direct things that they told their spouse. So why we keep getting posts telling us that men are right in ignoring when their wife brings up real issues, in a very clear way, is beyond me.


Fine, I'll step out after this post because I was trying to help you understand a bit so it isn’t beyond you. The women in this thread have given examples of very direct things said. I could give you examples of very direct things said about rolled up socks on the floor, dead light bulbs, parenting, lawn care, house cleaning, and so forth said by my wife. So out of hundreds of thousands of things she’s directly asked my help with, I’m magically supposed to figure out ‘the most important one’ when all of the those other things were also presented as a ‘big deal’ too? Add to it that she’s hides her true emotions about it? When it’s one of four things she’s asked; it is easy. But basically, it comes as no surprise at all a person who is constantly asking for help will ask for help again. It’s really hard to take it seriously.

A key: Men are raised in a sub-culture where asking for help is a ‘failure’ or ‘shame’ thing. We don’t ask for directions, but like you still want to get where we are going so we aren’t much different. You can tell me if women were raised the same way or not, but based on my experiences, you tended to be indoctrinated into a ‘helpless/frail’ mindset, therefore don’t feel that shame for asking; it doesn’t bother you asking. What we want isn’t much different as far as quantity; how we get it is though. I’m by no means saying it’s “right”… but it just is and you have to deal with how things are instead of how they should be.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Racer said:


> Fine, I'll step out after this post because I was trying to help you understand a bit so it isn’t beyond you. The women in this thread have given examples of very direct things said. I could give you examples of very direct things said about rolled up socks on the floor, dead light bulbs, parenting, lawn care, house cleaning, and so forth said by my wife. So out of hundreds of thousands of things she’s directly asked my help with, I’m magically supposed to figure out ‘the most important one’ when all of the those other things were also presented as a ‘big deal’ too? Add to it that she’s hides her true emotions about it? When it’s one of four things she’s asked; it is easy. But basically, it comes as no surprise at all a person who is constantly asking for help will ask for help again. It’s really hard to take it seriously.
> 
> A key: Men are raised in a sub-culture where asking for help is a ‘failure’ or ‘shame’ thing. We don’t ask for directions, but like you still want to get where we are going so we aren’t much different. You can tell me if women were raised the same way or not, but based on my experiences, you tended to be indoctrinated into a ‘helpless/frail’ mindset, therefore don’t feel that shame for asking; it doesn’t bother you asking. What we want isn’t much different as far as quantity; how we get it is though. I’m by no means saying it’s “right”… but it just is and you have to deal with how things are instead of how they should be.



I don't think women are raised to be helpless, but we are raised to think we have to appear helpless so our man will feel needed. Many of us have been told that our independence makes men feel unimportant so we have to go out of our way to let him save us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

lifeistooshort said:


> I don't think women are raised to be helpless, but we are raised to think we have to appear helpless so our man will feel needed. Many of us have been told that our independence makes men feel unimportant so we have to go out of our way to let him save us.


Yes and sadly some women buy into it.

I think that this the other side of the "men are protectors" coin.


I'm not knocking "men are protectors". It's just that there is always a Ying to a Yang.


----------



## WandaJ

ok I get it, some men just assume that words have no value. and they assume once they are married they do not have to pay attention.

Guess what ? - there are many men who get it. so do not use your upbringing as excuse. As explanation - yes. Excuse - no. We all have baggage, and for some of us it will screw our lives. so it is up to you guys what you will do with yours.


----------



## always_alone

lifeistooshort said:


> I don't think women are raised to be helpless, but we are raised to think we have to appear helpless so our man will feel needed. Many of us have been told that our independence makes men feel unimportant so we have to go out of our way to let him save us.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, you see that advice here and elsewhere *all* of the time: "Men need to be protectors, and providers, and feel like you need them. Whatever you do, show him admiration and make sure he feels like he is taking care of you."

If I had a nickel for every time I've been told how awful I am for being independent , and how much of a turn-off it is that I am not vulnerable, in need of saving, I'd be a rich(er) woman.

I don't believe anyone walks away because of this or that chore not being done. It's about not being listened to or heard, about everything falling on deaf ears. And to counter that with a comment like "well don't talk so much, then" just makes me very, very sad.

No wonder WAW is a "thing"


----------



## EleGirl

Racer said:


> Fine, I'll step out after this post because I was trying to help you understand a bit so it isn’t beyond you.


There is no reason for you to step of this thread.

I get what you are saying. 

But what I think you do not get is that it only applies to a subset of women. 



Racer said:


> The women in this thread have given examples of very direct things said. I could give you examples of very direct things said about rolled up socks on the floor, dead light bulbs, parenting, lawn care, house cleaning, and so forth said by my wife. So out of hundreds of thousands of things she’s directly asked my help with, I’m magically supposed to figure out ‘the most important one’ when all of the those other things were also presented as a ‘big deal’ too? Add to it that she’s hides her true emotions about it? When it’s one of four things she’s asked; it is easy. But basically, it comes as no surprise at all a person who is constantly asking for help will ask for help again. It’s really hard to take it seriously.


What you posted here is why I recommend “His Needs, Her Needs” and “Love Busters” so often. Most people do not understand what their needs are or how to express them. It seems that neither you nor you wife did (I don’t recall if you are still married to her or not). Most people need to be taught how to do this as our society sucks at teaching people who to build a good relationship. 

When I look at the things she said from a high level vantage point, I’d say that your wife wanted you to take reasonability for some things. That’s “domestic support”. That can be negotiated. What are her responsibilities and what are yours? For example, surely it is your responsibility to not leave rolled up socks on the floor.

Also, if she gives you a list of 1001 things to do, ask her to prioritize them. Then you add to the list when you will do the items and which you will not do. 

You also look for easy solutions. My H threw his dirty clothes on the floor next to the bed. It drove me nuts because spiders and other critters love that (We lived on a farm and critters are hard to avoid unless you want to live in a haze of toxic bug killer.) So there was a very easy solution. I got one of those fold up net/wire hampers and put it near his bed. He only had to actually put the clothing in it.

It’s about learning to communicate and working together.



Racer said:


> A key: Men are raised in a sub-culture where asking for help is a ‘failure’ or ‘shame’ thing. We don’t ask for directions, but like you still want to get where we are going so we aren’t much different. You can tell me if women were raised the same way or not, but based on my experiences, you tended to be indoctrinated into a ‘helpless/frail’ mindset, therefore don’t feel that shame for asking; it doesn’t bother you asking.


Some men are raised that way. And some women are raised that way. Not all are. That was my point…. Not all women are the same. Not all men are. To blast all women for the way your wife is, is well not cool. Because we are not all your wife and we are not all like her.

I was not raised to be helpless. Going back 3-4 generations, when I look at the women in my family, they are not helpless. My father was raised by a woman who was anything but helpless. He told taught all his 5 daughters to not be helpless. My mother did the same. My 3 brothers were also not taught to think that asking for help is shameful. We were all taught that when you are lost (figuratively or physically you ask for directions).


Racer said:


> What we want isn’t much different as far as quantity; how we get it is though. I’m by no means saying it’s “right”… but it just is and you have to deal with how things are instead of how they should be.


Things like thinking that asking for help is shameful, or that playing helpless is what a woman has to do are taught behaviors. People can learn new behaviors.

The women on this thread, and the other WAW thread. Are have given clear examples of stating very clearly, at a higher level what the issues are. That is not acting helpless.


----------



## NobodySpecial

lifeistooshort said:


> I don't think women are raised to be helpless, but we are raised to think we have to appear helpless so our man will feel needed. Many of us have been told that our independence makes men feel unimportant so we have to go out of our way to let him save us.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe unrelated to this OP, but this belongs in the SIM forum. Don't make us do this. It is totally unattractive to have your self esteem this fragile!


----------



## michzz

Sometimes a guy cannot filter out what he considers to be the usual endless *****ing about life that he experiences from his wife (mind you, I said what HE experiences, not what his wife perceives) from important messages from her about the state of their relationship.

Not blaming either party for this, but the lack of communication is not all one way.


----------



## coffee4me

michzz said:


> Sometimes a guy cannot filter out what he considers to be the usual endless *****ing about life that her experiences from his wife (mind you, I said what HE experiences, not what his wife perceives) from important messages from her about the state of their relationship.
> 
> Not blaming either party for this, but the lack of communication is not all one way.


Sometimes a girl can't filter it out either


----------



## Racer

NobodySpecial said:


> Maybe unrelated to this OP, but this belongs in the SIM forum. Don't make us do this. It is totally unattractive to have your self esteem this fragile!


I really don’t see it that way. I don’t see women as fragile or helpless at all. Nor do I see myself as your savior. But…. I enjoy the “damsel in distress” where I get to be your hero. It helps me feel good about myself being ‘needed’. I can open a jar for you. But I’m not stupid, I know that if I wasn’t there, you’d figure it out all on your own; you don’t really ‘need me’.

Basically, in real life, there are very, very few limited circumstances where I can be a real hero and rescue you from that burning building. So we work with what we got; opening jars, hunting flies and bees, squashing spiders, changing diapers, etc. We just want to be YOUR hero. 

And… well I suck at being that shoulder, consoling you emotionally, etc. I handle those things entirely different (just shove them into that box). I hardly feel ‘heroic’ when it feels like I made it worse for my wife. I try, but it's hard.

But if a wasp gets in the house, I can jump into action and save my family from impending doom and that immediate threat. (has visions of my wife and kids hugging me around my legs and looking up at me with new found respect as I stand there looking glorious glistening in sweat and ripped muscles,with a rolled up magazine in my best hero pose over the carcass of a dead giant wasp).. That’s how I think.

But to do that… I need a damsel every now and then to rescue. 

It can get screwed up when you see this stuff as our job or duty. So I feel like a servant or slave to you. That changes how willing I am to 'help' you. Because I don't see you as fragile or frail and can no longer see you as a damsel. You just become the wicked queen in the fantasy sending me out to do your bidding.... but I don't want to be that guy. 

Want me to really be there for you? Start seeing me as a hero again. Start allowing yourself to be damsel. And stop being 'strong' all the time like an old king hunched over his throne and pondering your next conquest... join me in my world where you too can be a hero and rescue me from time to time as well.... grab a fly swatter and spring into action with me


----------



## NobodySpecial

Racer said:


> I really don’t see it that way. I don’t see women as fragile or helpless at all. Nor do I see myself as your savior. But…. I enjoy the “damsel in distress” where I get to be your hero. It helps me feel good about myself being ‘needed’. I can open a jar for you. But I’m not stupid, I know that if I wasn’t there, you’d figure it out all on your own; you don’t really ‘need me’.
> 
> Basically, in real life, there are very, very few limited circumstances where I can be a real hero and rescue you from that burning building. So we work with what we got; opening jars, hunting flies and bees, squashing spiders, changing diapers, etc. We just want to be YOUR hero.
> 
> And… well I suck at being that shoulder, consoling you emotionally, etc. I handle those things entirely different (just shove them into that box). I hardly feel ‘heroic’ when it feels like I made it worse for my wife. I try, but it's hard.
> 
> But if a wasp gets in the house, I can jump into action and save my family from impending doom and that immediate threat. (has visions of my wife and kids hugging me around my legs and looking up at me with new found respect as I stand there looking glorious glistening in sweat and ripped muscles,with a rolled up magazine in my best hero pose over the carcass of a dead giant wasp).. That’s how I think.
> 
> But to do that… I need a damsel every now and then to rescue.
> 
> It can get screwed up when you see this stuff as our job or duty. So I feel like a servant or slave to you. That changes how willing I am to 'help' you. Because I don't see you as fragile or frail and can no longer see you as a damsel. You just become the wicked queen in the fantasy sending me out to do your bidding.... but I don't want to be that guy.
> 
> Want me to really be there for you? Start seeing me as a hero again. Start allowing yourself to be damsel. And stop being 'strong' all the time like an old king hunched over his throne and pondering your next conquest... join me in my world where you too can be a hero and rescue me from time to time as well.... grab a fly swatter and spring into action with me


I think you misunderstand me. I meant don't make US hold up a flagging self esteem. If you want to kill bugs, rock on. I really appreciate when DH lifts something to heavy for me, or opens a jar. It is just plain nice and something I needed at the time. But don't require we change into something to hold up an ego. That is what I meant.


----------



## cons

Racer -

I like your perspective.

So often I see relationships where there is such a power struggle. It's this attempt to power over each other to get the individual's needs met.

Instead it should be a race to power under...supporting the other... and in turn, supporting the "WE" that is created in this union.

It is in the receiving of the hero's gifts...not as an assault that I cannot take care of myself, but instead, seeing the care and love in action that my husband does for me...for us.

Honoring the gift, honors the giver.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Lila said:


> I struggle with this in my relationship. I'm an incredibly independent person, have always been that way. I don't 'need' my husband to be my savior or my hero but do need him to be my partner. Someone who shares his life with me and vice versa.
> 
> I guess I could always pretend to be helpless in order to make my H feel needed but then wouldn't that be dishonest?


I struggle with it as well. I too am very independent, but that doesn't mean my husband doesn't make my life easier and doesn't take care of things well. It means that I could take care of things myself, but my life is still easier and richer because of him.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

Lila said:


> I struggle with this in my relationship. I'm an incredibly independent person, have always been that way. I don't 'need' my husband to be my savior or my hero but do need him to be my partner. Someone who shares his life with me and vice versa.
> 
> I guess I could always pretend to be helpless in order to make my H feel needed but then wouldn't that be dishonest?


You don't have to pretend or be dishonest...I can only speak from my perspective, but I don't need to "save" my wife or "rescue" her from impending doom, or to take care of the "helpless" woman she is.

I just like to feel wanted/needed for my strengths. That's really all it comes down to. My wife lived alone for 10 years before marrying me. She can handle any issue that comes her way. And I love her for that. Now if she's in the bathroom and a spider is walking on the tiles...she calls for me. 

Let's be honest...If I was away on business....she'd kill the spider, without a second thought, but she likes me to do it if I'm home...I think more so because she doesn't want to get spider guts on her more than actually being afraid of a spider LOL. So I "save" her from the mean old spider. We turn it into joking and or even flirtation (how is she ever going to make it up to me for saving her...LOL). But it's still a good feeling to do something for her.


----------



## Healer

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Fitnessfan
> I think that anyone who's partner is denying them intimacy, and where they have done everything they can to fix the problem has the moral right to have an affair.


No, they have a moral right to divorce. "A moral right to have an affair" is an oxymoron.

That being said, I agree both spouses are entitled to having a sex life - with each other. If that's not available, divorce, and find a spouse who will give you the sex life you desire and are entitled to.


----------



## Healer

Whoa, lots of people banned that posted here...


----------



## Wazza

Healer said:


> No, they have a moral right to divorce. "A moral right to have an affair" is an oxymoron.
> 
> That being said, I agree both spouses are entitled to having a sex life - with each other. If that's not available, divorce, and find a spouse who will give you the sex life you desire and are entitled to.


That one gets complex (though its said a lot on TAM).

Marriage is for a number of reasons, and sex is only one of them. We made vows. Do they mean nothing? Are we entitled to change our minds on a whim?

If I want sex five times a day and my wife only wants it four, is that grounds for divorce?

I'm not saying I think affairs are morally justified. Some people consciously set out to have affairs and that is wrong. But I can understand how people fall into them for all sorts of reasons. Being faithful is good and admirable, but so is commitment to your vows. And sometimes those tow come into conflict.


----------



## NobodySpecial

I wonder if this is common. I know it is in my marriage. My DH does not see patterns. Each instance of an event is a new thing. You see a lot if guys talking in terms of singularities and equivalence. If I want sex x times a week and she wants it x-2. Is that enough? That is not the way it generally goes for the woman. Month after month, year after year of HER feelings being ignored because HER feelings were not important. What skin off his nose? He reasons are not enough for her to leave, right? Not to him. But what he doesn't get (and we see it on this thread a ton), SHE has an ability to decide for HERSELF what is enough.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Wazza said:


> Are we entitled to change our minds *on a whim*?


I wonder how many wives who tried for years to get through to their husbands would be pissed as hell at the categorization of "on a whim"? Maybe not. Maybe now that they are rid of their husbands, they are off being happy!


----------



## SurpriseMyself

NobodySpecial said:


> I wonder how many wives who tried for years to get through to their husbands would be pissed as hell at the categorization of "on a whim"? Maybe not. Maybe now that they are rid of their husbands, they are off being happy!


I'm on my way there, although I won't call it getting "rid of" my H. And while I hope to be happy, I think it's going to hurt for a while. Hurt because it's what no one wants. Hurts because my H is a good guy in so many ways, but we didn't work and I can't get through to him about why. 

So once I am separated/divorced, I see it as having a chance to be happy. It won't just automatically happen; I have to make it happen.


----------



## Healer

Wazza said:


> But I can understand how people fall into them for all sorts of reasons. Being faithful is good and admirable, but so is commitment to your vows. And sometimes those tow come into conflict.


Nobody "falls into" an affair. It's not a camouflaged pothole. It's a conscious decision. No matter what people tell themselves, or what others tell them, unless they are seriously and legitimately mentally ill, they are in control of their choices and actions. 

How much sex is enough or sufficient is not a black or white issue...it's open to interpretation. And if you're not happy with the frequency to the point it's going to drive you elsewhere to fill that desire, then you must divorce and proceed.

Having sex with someone who is not your spouse, behind their back, however, IS a black and white issue. There is no room for interpretation. 

It is both morally and legally, grounds to divorce.


----------



## Healer

NobodySpecial said:


> I wonder how many wives who tried for years to get through to their husbands would be pissed as hell at the categorization of "on a whim"? Maybe not. Maybe now that they are *rid of their husbands*, they are off being happy!


Nice. You enjoy demonizing men, don't you?

I'm certain many of these men are "off being happy" now that they are rid of their wives, too. I know I am.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Healer said:


> Nice. You enjoy demonizing "men", don't you?


This happens to be a post about walk away wives. 


> I'm certain many of these "men" are "off being happy" now that they are rid of their wives, too. I know I am.


Great! I am glad for you.


----------



## Wazza

NobodySpecial said:


> I wonder how many wives who tried for years to get through to their husbands would be pissed as hell at the categorization of "on a whim"? Maybe not. Maybe now that they are rid of their husbands, they are off being happy!


You know you took that quote totally out of context and made it mean something totally different from what I said, right?


----------



## NobodySpecial

Wazza said:


> You know you took that quote totally out of context and made it mean something totally different from what I said, right?


No, I don't think I did. I thought I had the point pretty well understood. But if you would like to clarify, please feel free.


----------



## soccermom2three

Don't worry about it, NS. Healer told me on another thread that I have "hatred towards men". It's what he does when he doesn't have anything productive to say.


----------



## NobodySpecial

soccermom2three said:


> Don't worry about it, NS. Healer told me on another thread that I have "hatred towards men". It's what he does when he doesn't have anything productive to say.


It made me chuckle.


----------



## Wazza

Healer said:


> Nobody "falls into" an affair. It's not a camouflaged pothole. It's a conscious decision. No matter what people tell themselves, or what others tell them, unless they are seriously and legitimately mentally ill, they are in control of their choices and actions.
> 
> How much sex is enough or sufficient is not a black or white issue...it's open to interpretation. And if you're not happy with the frequency to the point it's going to drive you elsewhere to fill that desire, then you must divorce and proceed.
> 
> Having sex with someone who is not your spouse, behind their back, however, IS a black and white issue. There is no room for interpretation.
> 
> It is both morally and legally, grounds to divorce.


Those of us who have been cheated on can sometimes be very black and white about cheaters.

People are imperfect, and have breaking points. They have values that they don't always live up to. And each of us breaks at a different point in different circumstances. You can't function in human relationships unless you understand and accept that truth.

Once you accept it, then it follows that someone who tries to stay in a marriage that is not working, suppressing their needs for a time, is vulnerable. Those unmet needs might cause them to do things they wouldn't ordinarily do, particularly in a moment of weakness. The affair was wrong, but a basic motivating factor, commitment to working at the marriage, was not.

I am not saying an affair under these circumstances is right. I am saying it's very different from someone who never tried to keep their vows, who thought sleeping around was fine, and whose only focus was not getting caught. 

Your response is "They should just divorce". What if you made a vow of lifelong marriage, and take it seriously? You should just break your word? Subject your kids to a broken home? Destroy your partner's finances and future? Just because its what you want? Sometimes that is inevitable, but how is it morally desirable?

Most people reading this probably have, or have had, marriage problems. They are deep and painful, and we will have strong and immediate emotional reactions. But we need to look beyond that.


----------



## Wazza

richardsharpe said:


> I think that anyone who's partner is denying them intimacy, and where they have done everything they can to fix the problem has the moral right to have an affair.





Healer said:


> No, they have a moral right to divorce. "A moral right to have an affair" is an oxymoron.
> 
> That being said, I agree both spouses are entitled to having a sex life - with each other. If that's not available, *divorce, and find a spouse who will give you the sex life you desire* and are entitled to.





Wazza said:


> We made vows. Do they mean nothing? Are we entitled to change our minds on a whim? *If I want sex five times a day and my wife only wants it four, is that grounds for divorce?*





NobodySpecial said:


> I wonder how many wives who tried for years to get through to their husbands would be pissed as hell at the categorization of "on a whim"? Maybe not. Maybe now that they are rid of their husbands, they are off being happy!





Wazza said:


> You know you took that quote totally out of context and made it mean something totally different from what I said, right?





NobodySpecial said:


> No, I don't think I did. I thought I had the point pretty well understood. But if you would like to clarify, please feel free.


Where did I categorise wives who have tried for years to get through to their husbands as acting on a whim?


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## 2little2late

coffee4me said:


> I agree with you it becomes a cycle. You didn't meet my XYZ needs so I don't want or care to meet your XYZ needs.
> 
> Then you live life in a stalemate. Until someone cries uncle and walks.


This was my marriage. And then my husband got too involved with a co worker and had an affair.


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## Healer

NobodySpecial said:


> This happens to be a post about walk away wives.


Right, except the part I quoted.


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## Healer

soccermom2three said:


> Don't worry about it, NS. Healer told me on another thread that I have "hatred towards men". It's what he does when he doesn't have anything productive to say.


"Productive"? Hmm. Not sure - that's subjective, I suppose. Just calling it like I see it.


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## Healer

NobodySpecial said:


> Great! I am glad for you.


Thanks!


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## Healer

Wazza said:


> What if you made a vow of lifelong marriage, and take it seriously? You should just break your word? Subject your kids to a broken home? Destroy your partner's finances and future? Just because its what you want?


Lol. You do see the irony in this way of thinking, don't you?



Wazza said:


> Once you accept it, then it follows that someone who tries to stay in a marriage that is not working, suppressing their needs for a time, is vulnerable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except we're talking about grown men and women here. Not children. I was in a ****ty marriage too and was treated terribly for a long, long time. But guess what? I have free will. Just like everyone else. And I made the CHOICE not to cheat. "Vulnerable"? People are "vulnerable" to disease, to being mugged, to a bad economy. People make a conscious _choice_ to cheat. It's something they've willed. It's not something that happens to someone.
Click to expand...


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## Wazza

Healer said:


> Wazza said:
> 
> 
> 
> What if you made a vow of lifelong marriage, and take it seriously? You should just break your word? Subject your kids to a broken home? Destroy your partner's finances and future? Just because its what you want?
> 
> 
> 
> Lol. You do see the irony in this way of thinking, don't you?
> 
> 
> 
> Wazza said:
> 
> 
> 
> Once you accept it, then it follows that someone who tries to stay in a marriage that is not working, suppressing their needs for a time, is vulnerable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except we're talking about grown men and women here. Not children. I was in a ****ty marriage too and was treated terribly for a long, long time. But guess what? I have free will. Just like everyone else. And I made the CHOICE not to cheat. "Vulnerable"? People are "vulnerable" to disease, to being mugged, to a bad economy. People make a conscious _choice_ to cheat. It's something they've willed. It's not something that happens to someone.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I see tragedy rather than irony. The ideal is to keep your promises and be faithful. Both matter, and sometimes it is hard.
> 
> Adults, like children, get tempted. Yes in a sense its a choice, and a wrong one. But sometimes marriage is hard work, and we all have a breaking point. Someone who tries and fails is, in my view, on higher moral ground than someone who does not try.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Healer

Wazza said:


> Healer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lol. You do see the irony in this way of thinking, don't you?
> 
> 
> 
> Wazza said:
> 
> 
> 
> Once you accept it, then it follows that someone who tries to stay in a marriage that is not working, suppressing their needs for a time, is vulnerable.
> 
> 
> I see tragedy rather than irony. The ideal is to keep your promises and be faithful. Both matter, and sometimes it is hard.
> 
> Adults, like children, get tempted. Yes in a sense its a choice, and a wrong one. But sometimes marriage is hard work, and we all have a breaking point. Someone who tries and fails is, in my view, on higher moral ground than someone who does not try.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, got my quoting all messed up there.
> 
> I guess I just expect more of grown ups. I see people who do hurtful, destructive, painful things by choice as...not very good people. That's not to say there are plenty of BS out there who are ****ty, awful people.
> 
> But imo, having sex with someone other than your spouse, behind said spouse's back, is one of the most cruel, heinous things a person can do to another person. It crushing, brutal, dangerous, destructive (to children as well), and, worst of all, it's intentional.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## soccermom2three

How did this thread get turned into an infidelity thread?


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## Canon in D

I've been telling my spouse I want us to spend time together. we don't do things together. I want to be best friends etc. He comes home and read his book, surf the net on his laptop. Weekends he does the same. 

Prior to marriage either I go over his place or my place and we go places together. Now he is just into his books. And smokes with alcohol. I never wanted to marry a smoker and drinker. Prior to marriage he was a casual smoker and drinker. Now he is a binge drinker and smokes. 

When he travels he goes away and chill with the guys. When he is home he just stays home and do his thing. I've told him (before marriage) I do not want to spend our time watching tv only. He agreed. Now our bonding time is over the tube. That's if we do watch tv. Or else it be him and his smokes and drinks outdoor watching his sports. He loves all his games, the last year or two he spent mostly outdoor smoking and drinking with his laptop. if it rains while he is reading a book he brings an umbrella and sit out there. 

I used to complain and get upset and argue with him for not "doing things together". If I asked to watch a show that he is searching on Netflix he used to say he's seen it already. It felt like he didn't even care to even tell me gently. Just a "I've seen it." Curt reply. 

There was a period things were rough, his buddy asked him to go away with him for a week. I was against it because we had issues and I wanted us to work on us instead of him going away to enjoy leaving me alone. I'm all out ok to have friends, but I didn't feel it was ok for him to go away at that point in time. He insisted to go and he went even though I disagreed. I honestly feel he loves his friend more, hence I say he can get his buddy to wipe his butt when he is old, not me.

I've brought up divorce. He mentioned he didn't marry to divorce. But there was once he said I will do fine if we divorce as I'm smart. I don't see him putting more effort to make things better. He avoids conflict by not saying stuff, which I call it passive aggressive as his body language, eyes rolling, tilting head, sighs are passive aggressive to me. He thinks I should be careful with my use of word choice with regard to the word "passive aggressive". He thinks i'm being unreasonable and he is right. When I give examples such as how if he doesn't roll his eyes at his boss or co-worker then he shouldn't do it to me, he thinks my example either doesn't make sense, or it's not the same, or it's different.

I don't think what I said rang a word in his ears. Ok, I'm sure some did, just not all. When it does it's when he is in the mood to hear it. Otherwise I'm wrong, I'm unreasonable. When he is in the mood and I explain the same thing again, he will tell me that I'm right. I've told him many times that I wasn't looking for a "I'm right" response. I'm looking for us to avoid the conflict. I want actions, not words.

I think some people love themselves too much and won't give more to their spouse. Someone told me to have zero expectations and work on me. That's what I'm working on. Me. 

I think if the woman tried in whatever ways she thought she tried, well at least in my case, there's miscommunication issues, there's pride, there's upbringing differences, childhood issues, lack of respect, or at least a different perception in our definition of the word respect (I think rolling your eyes is rude), and most important of all, there's the taking your spouse for granted issue. 

I'm still here and working on me. I know now that he will never be my best friend, and if I want to stay married then that is it. Accept him for who he is as my words will just fall on deaf ears, so work on me and stop letting him take charge of my happiness. It's a work in progress.


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## Decorum

soccermom2three said:


> How did this thread get turned into an infidelity thread?


Hummm the cats away?


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## jld

Canon, leaving him might just make him change.


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## SimplyAmorous

Canon in D said:


> I'm still here and working on me. I know now that he will never be my best friend, and if I want to stay married then that is it. Accept him for who he is as my words will just fall on deaf ears, so work on me and stop letting him take charge of my happiness. It's a work in progress.


Your marital dynamics , what they have turned into here... just thinking about it.. sounds very frustrating...you sound like a very loving giving woman here....he's been taking you for granted...

I don't think your personality and lifestyle meshes with HIS...or will it ever... even if you did *the 180* on him...It wouldn't have any effect, he'd just be happy you were "doing your own thing" so he could continue to do his.. ya know.. this is not going to satisfy the cravings of your soul ...if you long for a best friend type marriage..


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## WandaJ

soccermom2three said:


> How did this thread get turned into an infidelity thread?


women are involved, that's why.


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## WandaJ

Canon in D said:


> I
> 
> 
> I've brought up divorce. He mentioned he didn't marry to divorce.


And I think that's a big part of the problem for many marriages - the divorce is not an option, so there is NO NEED to work on it. They assume that they married for life, so whatever they say or do have no consequences. there are women and men who do that. 

Bait and switch.


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## Canon in D

*Re: Re: Problems in marriage, WAW - Question for women*



jld said:


> Canon, leaving him might just make him change.


I don't think he will. Even if he does (which I honestly think he won't), it'd be too late. There's no turning back. That is why I'm still here.


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## Canon in D

*Re: Re: Problems in marriage, WAW - Question for women*



SimplyAmorous said:


> You sound like a very loving giving woman here....he's been taking you for granted...
> 
> I don't think your personality and lifestyle meshes with HIS...or will it ever... even if you did *the 180* on him...It wouldn't have any effect, he'd just be happy you were "doing your own thing" so he could continue to do his.. ya know.. this is not going to satisfy the cravings of your soul ...if you long for a best friend type marriage..


Yes. He is very happy when I do not complain, nag or tell him how I feel. He hears "negativity" when I express my unhappiness. He probably hears "you are a lousy husband". and yes, I sound loving giving but I don't think I am seen that way to him. I express my love differently than him. There are other factors that interferes the dynamics of our marriage. We don't really speak each others love language. He for some reason reads everything but not the book about the 5 love languages that's been sitting on the shelf. And I've read it. He has once mentioned he doesn't believe in self help books, don't know if that's the reason why.

The issues in the marriage isn't all his fault. I was told I have high expectations. So I contribute to the issues and he plays the part where he acts immature and retracts into his shell. But because he is immature so it's hard to get him to participate and compromise. He is always asking me to understand. I don't know who will understand me then. Feels like a one way street here. It has to be at his own time. When he is happy, it's easier to get along. I've also discovered when he is happy (that's when I leave him be and say nothing "negative") I can get him to do things better.

If I were to see from his point of view, he does want a simple, easy life, but I'm the one demanding and asking for more and takes him for granted.

My old and wise friend told me marriage is made out of needs, not out of love. And a perfect marriage is made in heaven. She also said we need to ask ourselves and search within our souls in what we are yearning for. She thought if we deal with our issues, we will not be having conflicts with our spouses. She is also the one who made me realize my husband is not capable of giving me what I need. I was also a critical parent to him (though I don't see it, but that's what she heard from what I've told her).

Whatever it is, the person to change gotta be me. I'm currently working on being happy without expecting him fulfilling my needs.


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## Canon in D

*Re: Re: Problems in marriage, WAW - Question for women*



WandaJ said:


> And I think that's a big part of the problem for many marriages - the divorce is not an option, so there is NO NEED to work on it. They assume that they married for life, so whatever they say or do have no consequences. there are women and men who do that.
> 
> Bait and switch.


That's how I felt initially. I felt conned into the marriage. That he agreed many things but he isn't doing it. There were some warning signs which I failed to recognize too.

I used to blame him, and I still do when I feel down, but I'm working on not blaming him and recognize my own faults. It is after all me who agreed to marry him, and if he is broken, how can I expect him to fix me.

I need to work on my expectations and see things from a different perspective.


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## SimplyAmorous

> *Canon in D said: *The issues in the marriage isn't all his fault. *I was told I have high expectations.* So I contribute to the issues and he plays the part where he acts immature and retracts into his shell. But because he is immature so it's hard to get him to participate and compromise. He is always asking me to understand. I don't know who will understand me then. Feels like a one way street here. It has to be at his own time. When he is happy, it's easier to get along. I've also discovered when he is happy (that's when I leave him be and say nothing "negative") I can get him to do things better.


 I don't think you have high expectations , I think you married someone you are NOT compatible with.. this *is* the fall out...some of the most self aware amazing women would not be able to put up with him.... you said he's a binge drinker, he refuses to communicate, any notion of you bringing up your needs -he deems negativity ...Why doesn't he care to help you through it.. see his hand in it..... his form of bonding is putting his face in front of the TV.. LAZY...and he dumps on self help books because he refuses to be open to any help! and he wants to blame it all on YOU... ha ha.. 

Someone like that is impossible to "grow" with, or get closer to.. NO self awareness to his own faults & how he affects YOU.. his wife... 

You put faith in his changing after the vows - I did a thread on that once...asking others ...was it a bait & switch.. which of these...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ng-vows-now-who-what-why-could-weathered.html



> What best describes your situation in hindsight...
> 
> *1.* Missing Red Flags
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .. *caught up in the "whirlwind / dopamine rush / "LOVE can conquer all" mentality.* Maybe friends / relatives even pointed them out...but you felt they were all wrong.
> 
> *2.* Partner misrepresented himself/ herself...(Ex...Man treats his girl like a Queen....ends up an abuser after the Vows..or Girlfriend very sexual / then suddenly the sex dies once the ring is on the finger)...and it feels like a "Bait & Switch"....
> 
> *3* No Misrepresentation ...all was discussed/ agreed upon going in/ no blinders ...then after so many yrs...*Priorities change*..and one feels deeply blindsided...(Example....Agreeing to have children, then one changes his or her mind...)
> 
> *4* Lacking Self awareness to own's own needs & desires in Marriage...maybe low self esteem..."Settled"... Naive....went in blindly...not asking enough questions .... realized later ...very little compatibility ...
> 
> *5* We haven't really changed much......what we wanted then...it still what we'd want today... the smaller changes that came... we grew & weathered together...
> 
> *6* We've changed A LOT over the years, growing pains to show for it....but here we are, we are still Kicking...our foundation was strong & come hell or high water...we've made it work...kinda like the words from the Notebook ...fighting it out >>





> *Canon in D said*: My old and wise friend told me marriage is made out of needs, not out of love. And a perfect marriage is made in heaven. She also said we need to ask ourselves and search within our souls in what we are yearning for. *She thought if we deal with our issues, we will not be having conflicts with our spouses*. She is also the one who made me realize my husband is not capable of giving me what I need. I was also a critical parent to him (though I don't see it, but that's what she heard from what I've told her).


 I agree with your friend on -we should look deep inside to understand what we yearn for, what brings us personal happiness in a relationship.. YES!... ...and that your husband is NOT capable of giving you what you need..

But I DON'T agree with her on saying.. if you deal with all your issues, suddenly you won't have any problems with your spouse... not quite...you just learn to become NUMB and not give a crap anymore... anyone with a pulse is never going to thrive being married to a binge drinking -"can't have a deep conversation" -bonds with his TV type husband.....you will always feel something is missing ...

Oh you could throw yourself in other hobbies, pursuits - to get your mind off of him... etc.. but if you (or he) meets up with someone who scratches the internal itch of what you're missing at home...could be a slippery slope.


----------



## Canon in D

*Re: Re: Problems in marriage, WAW - Question for women*



SimplyAmorous said:


> .. he refuses to communicate... his form of bonding is putting his face in front of the TV.. LAZY
> 
> You put faith in his changing after the vows - I did a thread on that once...asking others ...was it a bait & switch.. which of these..
> 
> ...and that your husband is NOT capable of giving you what you need..
> 
> But I DON'T agree with her on saying.. if you deal with all your issues, suddenly you won't have any problems with your spouse... not quite...you just learn to become NUMB and not give a crap anymore... anyone with a pulse is never going to thrive being married to a binge drinking -"can't have a deep conversation" -bonds with his TV type husband.....you will always feel something is missing ....


My elderly friend is a retired educator, she has a lot of patience, I think she is almost a saint. She believes that people makes mistakes and will fall again and again. She also believes in accepting people as who they are, without expectations. I shouldn't have said there won't be any conflicts in the marriage if we resolve our own issues. She just told me last night that even if I managed to work on me and am happy, there will be times where there will be conflict in the marriage. Because no one is perfect.

At times I get what she means, other times I find it hard to comprehend or agree. That's because I'm still dealing with me. I have managed to accept my husband's binge drinking and let him be. I stopped my sarcastic remarks about his alcohol, I stopped resenting. I just accepted that's who he is.

Part of the reason I blame me is because I saw what I wanted to see prior to the marriage. He came over to my place during the weekends and sometimes he drank..because it was just a weekend thing I didn't think much about it (I didn't see him doing it at his place except with a beer sometimes). He drank my hard liquor like it's tap water (on the rocks or mixed with water) and he could easily consume half a bottle of whiskey in a night. All by himself. That's a flag I overlooked. But I have many friends who do that, and only when we party, so I didn't think that's going to be an issue. We spoke about it and he agreed he wants a healthy life style too. So was I blind-sided? I feel it's my fault for not seeing the flags.

I agree the tv thing is lazy. One way to deal with it is for me to be proactive and make the plans and go places. He will go, but I have to be the one to plan. He did say recently that we went places but had arguments. In a way saying what's the point. But he failed to recognize we didn't resolve the issues and we were using the same old approach so of course the conflicts remain. He also drank every night when we went away to the Caribbean. And all we did in the night was him drinking and debating on fb at the hotel lobby.

I'm not sure if I'm hijacking the thread, so I will end here. For others who are figuring out their stories and have been lurking around like me, I hope my story helped someone to learn something about themselves. 

I know I'm blaming him here. I can see it. Sometimes it's just good to type or write it out, take a step back and see what I'm really saying. I really must work on me and stop blaming him. I can't change him, I can only focus on me.


----------

