# Chump Lady Article on Cheaters: Nice vs. Kind



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Nice vs. Kind

by Chump Lady on April 29, 2014

There was an interesting side discussion the other day on Chump Lady about the difference between niceness and kindness. Many people noted that their cheaters appeared to much of the world as “nice people,” but in point of fact, lacked kindness. (Sure, it’s an understatement to say that cheating is unkind.)

Now, I don’t want to diss niceness, after all I am from the Midwest and its our default setting, but a lot of being nice is simply impression management. See? I come in peace! You can trust me, I’m nice! Nice works if you’re in sales. That’s why (at least here in the U.S., any way) salespeople are always encouraged to compliment you or end each transaction with “Have a nice day!”

I enjoy the social lubrication of nice. I want a nice person to bag my groceries. But at the end of the day, I just want my groceries bagged, the attitude with which you do it is optional. If I just got nice and no bagged groceries, that would suck.

“That’s a beautiful sweater you’re wearing!”

“Um, thanks. Could you please bag my groceries?”

“Lovely weather we’re having!”

“Uh, sir? There’s a line forming. Is this one of those bag-it-yourself places? Did I choose the self-check line?”

“Have a nice day!”

This is the cognitive dissonance of cheater nice. It’s nice without the bagged groceries. It’s pleasantry without substance. It’s all cherry and no sundae. (read the rest here)


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## GoSoHosed (Apr 17, 2014)

WOW!!! Thanks for posting that. I read the whole version on Chump Lady. I am stunned. My ww is the queen of nice. Its one of those things where in the back of your mind you know its manipulation to avoid divorce and dont take my 401k but your emotions play tricks on you and rationalize it away. All I can say is wow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Chump is always great


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Love reading her stuff, she's so angry.. I feel it along with her.

This points out in a very articulate way, why actions are so important after a betrayal, words are cheap.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

This quote is so great, regarding the lack of substance in "nice" cheaters:

‘It doesn’t deeply hurt them to have hurt their chump.’

That says it all. You can tell the real thing here on TAM (Mrs. JA, EI, Regret, ForeverGrateful and others) because it clearly hurts them to have hurt their SO's.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

I love the comments.. one person talks about the husbands "howorkers" I never heard that one. It's educating.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

russell28 said:


> Love reading her stuff, she's so angry.. I feel it along with her.
> 
> This points out in a very articulate way, why actions are so important after a betrayal, words are cheap.


Infidelity opens a pandoras box and your world is never quite the same in its aftermath. Parties may reconcile,repent or both but the aftershocks keep coming - they can not be stopped.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Other than the whole serial cheating, back stabbing, piece of trash wh0re persona she acted out during her affair, I'd say my ex is a pretty nice person.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

I'm just curious what your take on this might be. While I was in the middle of my A, I had a doctor's appointment one afternoon. Some of you might know that I recently fulfilled a 40 year old dream to skydive out of a plane. What none of you know is that I am extremely claustrophobic. I HATE being closed in. Riding elevators is pure torture for me. I take the stairs whenever possible no matter how many floors up I have to walk. I have had no other choice but to learn to manage my phobia because I have a son who uses a wheelchair. When he was younger and did not have an electric wheelchair, I had to ride the elevator with him. I did it when absolutely necessary, but I have never truly overcome the overwhelming anxiety that strikes me when the elevator doors close and it doesn't stop until after I have exited the elevator. I truly have a panic attack every time I have to ride one. 

So, back to that particular doctor's appointment that I had during the foggy midst of my selfishness during the A. Imagine my distress, as I was walking through the parking lot of the doctor's office, about to enter the building, when a visibly upset woman approached me and said, "I have a doctor's appointment and it's on the 11th floor. I am terrified of elevators." Then, she gave me a reason, (that I have never remembered, because at that moment I was freaking out knowing what she was about to ask me,) why she couldn't take the stairs. She told me that I looked like a _nice_ lady and asked if I would "PLEASE ride the elevator with her to the 11th floor." My appointment was on the 9th floor. I was ready to walk. But, I knew how real the fear was that she was experiencing. She said she had waited in the parking lot for a few minutes until she saw someone that she felt safe enough to ask to ride with her. I rode the elevator with her to the 11th floor. There was no one else on it, either. I had a silent panic attack and I resisted the urge to jump off on the 11th floor and walk back down to 9. I did that because I didn't want to tell her that I was claustrophobic, too. I was afraid that that might frighten her more. So, I had to ride back down those two floors by myself. It made me sick. If you're not claustrophobic you won't get this at all. If you are, no additional explanation is necessary. 

Though I did have a panic attack during the ride, I experienced an incredible adrenaline rush afterwards that is similar to the feeling you get when something suddenly and unexpectedly good happens to you. :scratchhead:

I never got the ladies name, nor did she ask for mine. Although, she repeatedly thanked me, again, and again. She never knew that she had asked the worst possible candidate to ride the elevator with her that day. She also didn't know that I was a lying, deceiving, cheating adulteress right in the midst of an A. I wonder if she ever shared that story with anyone. I wonder if she thought I was kind to her that day. Was I genuinely being kind? Or was I just being nice?  Simply being nice would suggest that it's done only so that one might reap the benefits of hearing others proclaim how nice they are. But, what if you are never going to be in a position to reap that reward? 

I think that people can be many things, some of them seemingly contradictory, yet all completely genuine. I think that for many people, assigning "only" negative labels to cheaters is an overused and unhealthy coping mechanism. For some reason, it seems that by labeling all cheaters as "bad," that it somehow defaults all non-cheaters as "good." It's a flawed TAM concept. I think it's also very foolish and unwise; not only for those who are attempting to reconcile, but for anyone who desires to truly heal from the destruction caused by infidelity, be it BS's, WS's, and others, (family and friends) as well. 

FWIW, most people, who truly know me, think I am a nice and a kind person. I think affairs are far more complicated beasts than can be explained by assigning simple labels.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

I think you were being kind because you understood her feelings and how important it was to her. It cost you something to do this; there was nothing in it for you.

I'll wager, though, that at the time you would have found it very hard to look at your A's effect on B1 through those same eyes. There's the difference.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Can't quite agree with this black and white thinking, though I get where she's coming from. Not everyone who becomes a cheater is incapable of kindness, even during their affair.

But there is often a lot more deception going on than the deception of us "chumps" (the BS's): the unfaithful spouses are frequently engaging in self-deception as well. 

For example, the compartmentalizing that is required to shut down feelings of empathy toward their spouses (I'm speaking of those WS's who DO want reconciliation, not those who really did stop caring about us altogether). If they were fully feeling those feelings of empathy - which most WS's presumably were able to have at one time during the marriage - they'd be unable to pull off their dual lives. If they had been authentic and truthful to themselves (unless they were really "off the deep end" and couldn't tell who they really were anymore anyway), they couldn't have fooled us the way they did. 

They HAVE to have reduced access to feelings of empathy for us, or else they couldn't cheat on us without showing cracks in their facade - if they actually felt those feelings they'd start to let on that they care about the effect their sneaking around and having an affair could have on us.

But while they're deceiving us and themselves, unfaithful spouses CAN behave in ways that are both nice AND kind - though, on balance, not so much to us! AND one could argue, while an affair might be temporarily "nice" (as in self-indulgent) for themselves, having an affair is hardly being "kind" to themselves.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Exactly! 

A problem with cheaters is that they might even think they are being kind, when they are only being nice.

My ex told me "I lie about my cheating because I don't want to hurt you."

Saying you don't want to hurt someone is nice. Actually not hurting them is kind.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Comments are great, too.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

I feel that chump lady is too angry and judgmental. I agree 100% with EI in that it isn't right, or helpful, to simply assign a "bad" label to cheaters. 

It doesn't help anyone heal.

I know I have my own, very deep, anger issues; but I also agree with the Dalai Lama's (I am sure taken from other texts) description of being angry with someone:

_"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."_

I can imagine that regular reading of chump lady's columns could perhaps delay reconciliation, or the ability of somebody to move on from the hurt caused by infidelity.

A few years ago I was cheated by a business partner. It meant I had more or less wasted around 2 years of hard work. It hadn't cost me any money as such, but the emotional and time investments had been significant.

I was so angry and bitter that the issue began to consume my life. Then one day I read the story about the 2 monks and it was like a door being opened or curtains being drawn; I felt immediately calmer and was able to "let go" of my bitterness. I am not equating this with what happens when a spouse cheats - that pain is almost infinitely greater - but my point is about moving on:

Two monks were on a pilgrimage. One day, they came to a deep river. At the edge of the river, a young woman sat weeping, because she was afraid to cross the river without help. She begged the two monks to help her. The younger monk turned his back. The members of their order were forbidden to touch a woman.

But the older monk picked up the woman without a word and carried her across the river. He put her down on the far side and continued his journey. The younger monk came after him, scolding him and berating him for breaking his vows. He went on this way for a long time.

Finally, at the end of the day the older monk turned to the younger one. "I only carried her across the river. You have been carrying her all day."


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## carpenoctem (Jul 4, 2012)

EI said:


> I was walking through the parking lot of the doctor's office, about to enter the building, when a visibly upset woman approached me and said, "I have a doctor's appointment and it's on the 11th floor. I am terrified of elevators." Then, she gave me a reason, (that I have never remembered, because at that moment I was freaking out knowing what she was about to ask me,) why she couldn't take the stairs. She told me that I looked like a _nice_ lady and asked if I would "PLEASE ride the elevator with her to the 11th floor." My appointment was on the 9th floor. I was ready to walk. But, I knew how real the fear was that she was experiencing. She said she had waited in the parking lot for a few minutes until she saw someone that she felt safe enough to ask to ride with her. I rode the elevator with her to the 11th floor. There was no one else on it, either. I had a silent panic attack and I resisted the urge to jump off on the 11th floor and walk back down to 9. I did that because I didn't want to tell her that I was claustrophobic, too. I was afraid that that might frighten her more. So, I had to ride back down those two floors by myself. It made me sick. If you're not claustrophobic you won't get this at all. If you are, no additional explanation is necessary.
> 
> I never got the ladies name, nor did she ask for mine. Although, she repeatedly thanked me, again, and again. She never knew that she had asked the worst possible candidate to ride the elevator with her that day. She also didn't know that I was a lying, deceiving, cheating adulteress right in the midst of an A. I wonder if she ever shared that story with anyone. I wonder if she thought I was kind to her that day. Was I genuinely being kind? Or was I just being nice?  Simply being nice would suggest that it's done only so that one might reap the benefits of hearing others proclaim how nice they are. But, what if you are never going to be in a position to reap that reward?
> 
> ...




*EI:
*
Vis a vis your post, an observation:

*The lift lady comparison would be apt only if you were also shortshrifting / deceiving her on some other count (especially if it is unbeknownst to her), WHILE being nice to her.

Otherwise (if being abusive of one could be balanced out by being ‘nice’ to another), we could say even that almost all WSs are ‘nice’ to their affair persons during the affair (at least in the initial phases), while emotionally abusing their spouses. That will not do, to meet chump lady’s analogy.*


- it's not a comment on your, or anybody's overall niceness, EI. Just an observation in the context of Chump Lady's analogy.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> ^^^
> 
> *So many Blacks in America have dissipated their entire life in hating Whites* (notwithstanding that the historic reasons for that hatred are real).
> 
> Many similar examples in other cultures too.


Where did that come from?


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## carpenoctem (Jul 4, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> Where did that come from?


was that inappropriate? will remove that.

may I request you to remove the quoted post too?

thank you.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> was that inappropriate? will remove that.
> 
> may I request you to remove the quoted post too?
> 
> thank you.



You go first. or get a mod to remove them at the same time. 

Race relations are too complicated to just drop something in there like that.

Ever heard of the Ku Klux Klan? Could you tell me just how productive their lives have been?


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## carpenoctem (Jul 4, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> You go first. or get a mod to remove them at the same time.
> 
> Race relations are too complicated to just drop something in there like that.
> 
> Ever heard of the Ku Klux Klan? Could you tell me just how productive their lives have been?


If i remember correctly, that opinion was of one of america's foremost black leaders, NTA (the thought - could not recollect verbatim).

And that also has resonance with the philosophical underpining of South Africa's Truth & Reconciliation Commission (was it 'commission'?), though you and i may not agree with it.

I was analogizing with an earlier post here, about two buddhist monks.

If you dont want to remove that post, your call. I have removed mine, since you were offended by it.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

EI said:


> I'm just curious what your take on this might be. While I was in the middle of my A, I had a doctor's appointment one afternoon. Some of you might know that I recently fulfilled a 40 year old dream to skydive out of a plane. What none of you know is that I am extremely claustrophobic. I HATE being closed in. Riding elevators is pure torture for me. I take the stairs whenever possible no matter how many floors up I have to walk. I have had no other choice but to learn to manage my phobia because I have a son who uses a wheelchair. When he was younger and did not have an electric wheelchair, I had to ride the elevator with him. I did it when absolutely necessary, but I have never truly overcome the overwhelming anxiety that strikes me when the elevator doors close and it doesn't stop until after I have exited the elevator. I truly have a panic attack every time I have to ride one.
> 
> So, back to that particular doctor's appointment that I had during the foggy midst of my selfishness during the A. Imagine my distress, as I was walking through the parking lot of the doctor's office, about to enter the building, when a visibly upset woman approached me and said, "I have a doctor's appointment and it's on the 11th floor. I am terrified of elevators." Then, she gave me a reason, (that I have never remembered, because at that moment I was freaking out knowing what she was about to ask me,) why she couldn't take the stairs. She told me that I looked like a _nice_ lady and asked if I would "PLEASE ride the elevator with her to the 11th floor." My appointment was on the 9th floor. I was ready to walk. But, I knew how real the fear was that she was experiencing. She said she had waited in the parking lot for a few minutes until she saw someone that she felt safe enough to ask to ride with her. I rode the elevator with her to the 11th floor. There was no one else on it, either. I had a silent panic attack and I resisted the urge to jump off on the 11th floor and walk back down to 9. I did that because I didn't want to tell her that I was claustrophobic, too. I was afraid that that might frighten her more. So, I had to ride back down those two floors by myself. It made me sick. If you're not claustrophobic you won't get this at all. If you are, no additional explanation is necessary.
> 
> ...


What I got from this story is you are afraid of riding in an elevator.

However, you jumped out of an airplane that wasn't on fire.

Your problem is you can't make rational decisions. In other words your crazy.

You need to move to Australia. Everthing is upside down down there you know. Just please don't hurt the crocs and poison snakes. Warn the sharks when you go to the beach too.

I used to fly a lot, then I got wise.:rofl:


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

The article was right on.

Chump Lady is great and the anger that she generates is meant as a device to help others move on and conquer their paralysis when faced with the treachery (yes treachery!) of an affair. She has no use for the reconciliation industrial complex. At all. 

BTW I met her the other day. Very, very kind and does not have an angry persona. She is a very necessary voice for many people. Count me a fan.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Fenix said:


> The article was right on.
> 
> Chump Lady is great and the anger that she generates is meant as a device to help others move on and conquer their paralysis when faced with the treachery (yes treachery!) of an affair. She has no use for the reconciliation industrial complex. At all.
> 
> BTW I met her the other day. Very, very kind and does not have an angry persona. She is a very necessary voice for many people. Count me a fan.


Reconciliation is surely the lifeblood of this section of the forum?

Chump lady comes across to me as a genuinely good and nice person so I am not saying anything about her personally at all.

I am angry and do angry things and, certainly, some of the vengeful and angry things I have done have helped an awful lot in leading me to a better place.

Maybe it's a case of cometh the hour, cometh the man and the chump lady articles are useful at a certain stage, but I get the feeling from the articles and replies that the anger on the site feeds on itself and it ends up being a "cheater hating" - and often misandrist - place.

I think it's ok to generally hate cheat_ing_, but not to hate the cheat_er_.

My opinion and, of course, I have no idea of the situations or opinions of the people there.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Fenix said:


> The article was right on.
> 
> Chump Lady is great and the anger that she generates is meant as a device to help others move on and conquer their paralysis when faced with the treachery (yes treachery!) of an affair. She has no use for the reconciliation industrial complex. At all.
> 
> BTW I met her the other day. Very, very kind and does not have an angry persona. She is a very necessary voice for many people. Count me a fan.


I read her page. She seems happily remarried, and over the cheating visited upon her. Now she is using her experience to help the betrayed keep their head up, and feel like they can get on with their lives.

Sounds nice and kind to me. So what if she doesn't try to push and shoehorn still hurting people into platitudes of "forgive, and now, or else."

Cheating? Not nice, not kind, not complicated. Just self-indulgent, detestable, and completely devoid of honor or commitment.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Chaparral said:


> What I got from this story is you are afraid of riding in an elevator
> 
> However, you jumped out of an airplane that wasn't on fire.


Correct! :smthumbup:



Chaparral said:


> Your problem is you can't make rational decisions. In other words your crazy.


Well, I am a FWS who is still posting on TAM after nearly two years, so I think *THAT* goes without saying. 



Chaparral said:


> You need to move to Australia. Everthing is upside down down there you know. * Just please don't hurt the crocs and poison snakes. Warn the sharks when you go to the beach too.*


Interesting observations, Chap. Reminds me of a recent conversation that I had with B1. He has his concealed and carry permit, so a few months ago, I told him that I wanted to get mine, too! He just smiled and said "_No_."  I said "_Why not_,"  to which he replied, "_You'd kill people. They would be dead and you would go to jail._"  I said that I would only kill the 'bad guys.' B1 said, "_But, you can't do that_." I said, "_Honey, you know if I *really* wanted to get my C&C, I would?_" He replied, "_I know_."  

I do think it's precious how he's always looking out for me that way, though. 




Chaparral said:


> I used to fly a lot, then I got wise.:rofl:


Nope, I think you just lost your nerve!


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

The Chump Lady also has an interview with Dr. George Simon, a psychologist/author on the subject of manipulative people. It has some interesting observations from him:

"It’s not that the cheater or disturbed character doesn’t know what they’re doing and what damage comes from it. If the wounded party is crying their heart out and is miserable, it’s not like you don’t know what you’ve done and what an effect it has had! It’s right there.
Character disordered people are not stupid people. They’re contrary people. They know what the rules are, they know what the expectations are. But they haven’t made the decision in their heart to play by the rules that you want them to play by. That’s a matter of the heart. So, like I’ve said over and over in countless workshops:
They already see but they just disagree....

...And they’ll change only when the cost of their behavior rises too high, the benefits of doing something different becomes more clear, that’s when they’ll change."


An interview with Dr. George Simon on “Character Disturbance”


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Forest said:


> The Chump Lady also has an interview with Dr. George Simon, a psychologist/author on the subject of manipulative people. It has some interesting observations from him:
> 
> "It’s not that the cheater or disturbed character doesn’t know what they’re doing and what damage comes from it. If the wounded party is crying their heart out and is miserable, it’s not like you don’t know what you’ve done and what an effect it has had! It’s right there.
> Character disordered people are not stupid people. They’re contrary people. They know what the rules are, they know what the expectations are. But they haven’t made the decision in their heart to play by the rules that you want them to play by. That’s a matter of the heart. So, like I’ve said over and over in countless workshops:
> ...


The description applies to any and all behaviour - from speeding to murder.

Do you break the speed limit next to a police car? No. Do you do it on an open road when no one else is there? Maybe. Realistically, if it's a 30 zone and it's open with no one around you will break the speed limit.

In both cases the misdemeanor is precisely the same, but in the first the consequences of your behaviour are too high to you to justify the crime. In the 2nd, the consequences would appear to be low to the individual involved. 

It's not a great simile, but it hopefully gets the point across.

Do any of us do bad things? Yes. I am sure we all do.

Cheating is a Bad Thing. It is on the extreme end of the Bad Thing spectrum, but then again we have no idea how many cheat and get away with it. I am certain there are betrayed spouses on here whom have also cheated in the past, or will do in the future. Does that change who they are?

I've made some terrible decisions in my life. Some of them have had a genuinely bad effect on other people. Some I regret every waking day, but I try to have learned from them. 

To me, the cheating is bad, but lack of remorse is unforgivable. The trickle truth that should be condemned as much as the act of cheating.

It is the lack of remorse that we should focus on. People come here almost always *after* the event, so judging the past is no use. 

Trying to figure it out is a *lot* of use, but judging it is not.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

Chris989 said:


> Reconciliation is surely the lifeblood of this section of the forum?
> 
> Chump lady comes across to me as a genuinely good and nice person so I am not saying anything about her personally at all.
> 
> ...


No, reconciliation is not the lifeblood of this forum. Only in the reconciliation subgroup, one in which I refuse to participate in.

I don't find the site misandrist and I think if someone wants to hate a cheater, that is fine. I also think appropriate judgment is fine. Judgment is part of the glue of society, but it sure is uncomfortable for those of you who have transgressed.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Fenix said:


> No, reconciliation is not the lifeblood of this forum. Only in the reconciliation subgroup, one in which I refuse to participate in.
> 
> I don't find the site misandrist and I think if someone wants to hate a cheater, that is fine. I also think appropriate judgment is fine. Judgment is part of the glue of society, but it sure is uncomfortable for those of you who have transgressed.


AFAIK there is no "reconciliation subgroup". There is one thread about it, but that is not a sub group.

As I understand it, this is a marriage forum and, in principal, supports marriage.

I'm not sure if you know anything about me - but please don't say "those of you" when addressing me. I have not "transgressed". 

On the other hand, posters such as EI and Regret make this forum a far better and more helpful place and we would do no one any favours it the atmosphere was hostile to cheaters per se, as opposed to non remorseful cheaters.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

I think the black-and-white thinking, absolute judgments and demonization is "useful" only as far as it helps you to protect yourself and get into a place that you can heal immediately after the betrayal. 

For me, that stopped the further I got on with my own healing. The less raw my feelings were, the more I was able to separate the bad deed from the person. I know I've done it and I see a lot of it here on this board where a new WS comes and people give more than just the proverbial 2x4 when it's not really necessary. Too often, they're lashing out at a stranger because of feelings they have about their own cheating spouse.

I am not now, nor will ever be an infidelity apologist. However, I do not think that the judgments and labeling is helpful for long-term healing whether you reconcile or divorce. I think it's potentially helpful or at least understandable in the beginning as I said but at some point people need to grow beyond that.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Chris989 said:


> The description applies to any and all behaviour - from speeding to murder.
> 
> Do you break the speed limit next to a police car? No. Do you do it on an open road when no one else is there? Maybe. Realistically, if it's a 30 zone and it's open with no one around you will break the speed limit.
> 
> ...


The problem with your analogy is that the behavior he is addressing IS cheating and destroying relationships, NOT speeding.

He is pointing out that persons that do this are willfully hurting others whom they are supposed to love and protect. They have taken a vow NOT to do this, yet they do it anyway, knowing it is wrong, knowing it can hurt others.

They do not considered spouses, children, and other family members that will suffer due to their lack of self control. 

Not all people exhibit this characteristic. It is a very undesirable trait that brings harm to society. It should be brought to light and dealt with, not explained away as "well, we all make mistakes".

Guess what? I DO NOT make mistakes like that. Never have. It is likely that most people do not make such mistakes, thank God. These people are doing something they know will hurt someone, and just don't care. That's not a mistake. That is willful abuse.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I think there is a misunderstanding here and an attempt to lump all the activities of a WSs life in the category of nice. I didn't read it that way. I read that in the relationship/marriage, this is likely to happen during/before/after an affair because of justification.

I don't think it's a flaw in the personality as much as a flaw in the relationship personality. Specifically, the relationship that the WS is in at that time, in which he/she is unfaithful.

Can it be a flaw that goes throughout their life? I think so. Is it definitively determined by unfaithfulness? I don't know. 

Justification on either side is wrong. It happened. The nice versus kind is not necessarily inherent behavior toward all whom the WS comes into contact with. Neither should it be accepted practice that it is not.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I think my ex-husband is a good example of someone who is nice but not kind. And, as it turns out, he's like that in all areas of his life. It wasn't just our relationship. That may be - probably is - different for people who aren't serial cheaters. But for him, it's part of who he is as a whole. 

My ex is the type that everyone will tell you is just the nicest guy ever. People just love him. He's great, super sweet, really awesome! 

The thing is, he's not really a kind person. He's nice. But only when there's something in it for him or it costs him nothing. If doing the right thing or the kind thing is inconvenient for him, conflicts with his plans, or results in no observable benefit for him, it's just not going to happen. He's big on grand gestures, but the small things that a kind person does for others go undone. Being nice is about appearing nice. There's no need to be kind if no one will notice or if it's a lot of trouble. He's exactly as giving, warm, loving, and caring as he needs to be or feels like being in that instant. It's image management that he does with everyone in his life. 

And as Chump Lady says, it's a mindfvck.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Forest said:


> The problem with your analogy is that the behavior he is addressing IS cheating and destroying relationships, NOT speeding.
> 
> He is pointing out that persons that do this are willfully hurting others whom they are supposed to love and protect. They have taken a vow NOT to do this, yet they do it anyway, knowing it is wrong, knowing it can hurt others.
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying and have to stress that I cannot adequately describe the pain I have been through after my wife's betrayal. 

I just think that it's a complicated and nuanced issue that isn't fair or right to put into "bad" and "good" boxes as far as the person as a whole is concerned.

Yes, betrayal is wrong. Yes, it isn't the betrayed spouse's fault.

"Willful abuse" is judged by the consequence, not the intention in the same way that a speeding motorist might not consider the consequences of their actions - despite the fact that, if things go wrong, they will result in death or serious injury.

I'm just thinking out loud here. I have my own, deep seated, issues so please don't think I am challenging you here. I am just seeking other view points.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Chris989 said:


> I understand what you are saying and have to stress that I cannot adequately describe the pain I have been through after my wife's betrayal.
> 
> I just think that it's a complicated and nuanced issue that isn't fair or right to put into "bad" and "good" boxes as far as the person as a whole is concerned.
> 
> ...



All is fine. I just think that in some instances people tend to discount and minimize the severity of issues that occur as a result of infidelity.

It may sound dramatic, but adultery regularly results in consequences that seem unimaginable. Murder? Of course, happens surprisingly often. Then you've often got two families robbed (typically) of a father. One is dead, one is in prison. Those kids should adjust well, and excel in their field, huh?

I'm just trying to emphasize that adultery is no mistake. That's a lame excuse thrown out by the betrayers. It is a knowing, conscience decision to forsake vows, and in many states commit a felony just to have some fun, irresponsible, no-strings nookie.

You gotta be a low down person to pull that off.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Forest said:


> *It may sound dramatic, but adultery regularly results in consequences that seem unimaginable*. Murder? Of course, happens surprisingly often. Then you've often got two families robbed (typically) of a father. One is dead, one is in prison. Those kids should adjust well, and excel in their field, huh?


Maybe there's something in that about consequences. Unless you've been through infidelity, you have _no idea_ of the consequences. It's something I've tried to discuss a lot with my ex. This is where it is so unlike so many other moral wrongs. If you murder someone, steal their car or run them over because you were DUI, you have a pretty fair idea of the consequences to the people involved. It's a fairly "easy" thing to figure out what will happen in terms of trouble and grief.

My ex's thought process as far as her cheating and being caught (although she didn't "think" she would ever be caught either):

1) I would immediately leave her and, crucially, she would be happy about this

2) There wouldn't be any pain beyond the pain of separation of a 20 year marriage - one she thought she didn't care about by that point.

3) We would probably remain friends

4) She could then carry on with her special lover

Of course, in real life none of this happened; there was immediate and acute pain on both sides. She immediately realised she had made an enormous f up; that she was desperate to keep the marriage; that her special lover was, in fact, the POS everybody who knows him knows he is, that the pain lasts for a _long time_ and has _real consequences_ etc. etc.

She had zero idea of this; heck, I had worried about what would happen if she cheated (although was convinced she never would) but had absolutely no clue about the pain and strife it causes.

None of this applies now of course. If either of us cheated in the future we would be fully culpable.

My point is that, for someone cheating not having been caught before, they are not accurately weighing the "crime" against the consequences, because _nobody_ understands infidelity until they have experienced it.


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## carpenoctem (Jul 4, 2012)

Chris989 said:


> My ex's thought process as far as her cheating and being caught (although she didn't "think" she would ever be caught either):
> 
> 1) *I would immediately leave her and, crucially, she would be happy about this*
> 
> ...




*Fogzilla lives.*


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

Chris989 said:


> AFAIK there is no "reconciliation subgroup". There is one thread about it, but that is not a sub group.
> 
> As I understand it, this is a marriage forum and, in principal, supports marriage.
> 
> ...


This is the subgroup I was referring to. Reconciliation

I meant the general you, not the specific you. I have no idea if you are a cheater or not. You did strike me as a bit of an apologist (which may be incorrect). I don't really care if this place is or I am hostile to cheaters. It is not a behavior I respect. With that said, I don't put all cheaters in the same box and although I may not respect the behavior, I generally can see the greater whole. Of course, there are also some for whom I feel deep apathy.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Fenix said:


> This is the subgroup I was referring to. Reconciliation
> 
> I meant the general you, not the specific you. I have no idea if you are a cheater or not. You did strike me as a bit of an apologist (which may be incorrect). I don't really care if this place is or I am hostile to cheaters. It is not a behavior I respect. With that said, I don't put all cheaters in the same box and although I may not respect the behavior, I generally can see the greater whole. Of course, there are also some for whom I feel deep apathy.


I didn't consider the general reconciliation thread as part of CWI as I believe the issues faced post infidelity are quite different from a "normal" reconciliation.

As for the rest, I'm not an apologist - far from it - but I do believe a fellow human warrants empathy if at all possible.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

EI said:


> I think that people can be many things, some of them seemingly contradictory, yet all completely genuine. I think that for many people, assigning "only" negative labels to cheaters is an overused and unhealthy coping mechanism. For some reason, it seems that by labeling all cheaters as "bad," that it somehow defaults all non-cheaters as "good." It's a flawed TAM concept. I think it's also very foolish and unwise; not only for those who are attempting to reconcile, but for anyone who desires to truly heal from the destruction caused by infidelity, be it BS's, WS's, and others, (family and friends) as well.
> 
> FWIW, most people, who truly know me, think I am a nice and a kind person. I think affairs are far more complicated beasts than can be explained by assigning simple labels.


Discovering infidelity usually means discovering the person is not at all whom you thought they were. And the change is literally ground shaking. The BS's world dissolves, nothing is real, and everything in the past is now potentially fake. There is no foundation underfoot. Literally that is how it feels.

As you probably know, the sex in an affair is problematic to the BS, but the _betrayal_ is what is so emotionally destroying. The extreme nature of the shock to the BS makes it difficult to see any good in the WS. After all, the WS in effect murdered the person the BS thought they were married to.

I agree with you that it is a complex situation, and cheaters generally seem to continue to be outwardly much the same person they were before. If they volunteered for charity work, they still do, etc.

The nature of the cheating has a lot to do with how the final balancing of accounts comes out. Some cheaters really do some evil intentionally hurtful things, whereas other cheaters are very selfish but don't set out to do harm (because they don't expect to ever get caught).


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Thor said:


> Discovering infidelity usually means discovering the person is not at all whom you thought they were. And the change is literally ground shaking. The BS's world dissolves, nothing is real, and everything in the past is now potentially fake. There is no foundation underfoot. Literally that is how it feels.
> 
> As you probably know, the sex in an affair is problematic to the BS, but the _betrayal_ is what is so emotionally destroying. The extreme nature of the shock to the BS makes it difficult to see any good in the WS. After all, the WS in effect murdered the person the BS thought they were married to.
> 
> ...


Oh yes, being betrayed is life-shattering. You feel like your real spouse has been murdered somehow, and yet instead of a grieving process where all your friends and family support you through it, you have to instead deal with the evil-twin murderer, sometimes in secret if the affair hasn't been exposed\, possibly for the rest of your life. And unlike a murder, there is no consequence to the betrayer, except to get half your assets and possibly part of your future income, and you have to deal with them civilly for the rest of your life if you have children together.

Your self-esteem takes a huge hit, as you re-evaluate everything about your relationship history that may have been a lie. You feel unworthy of respect from anyone because the person who was supposed to love you above all others did not respect you at all. You doubt your judgment of all other people; after all, you've just had your ability to judgment proven to be horribly flawed. Someone just proved to you that their sexual satisfaction is more important than your whole life, so how important a person can you possibly be?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I realized after posting my last comment that it could come across as knocking EI's position. In fact I am agreeing that we can go too far in our vilification of WS. A truly remorseful WS who didn't go too far out during the affair may still have many good qualities, yet it can be nearly impossible for the BS to see them due to the enormity of the emotional trauma from the affair.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Thor said:


> In fact I am agreeing that we can go too far in our vilification of WS. A truly remorseful WS who didn't go too far out during the affair may still have many good qualities, yet it can be nearly impossible for the BS to see them due to the enormity of the emotional trauma from the affair.


They do have many good qualities or the AP would not have had sex with them. Those qualities that shine at that period of time, are not the ones that are conducive to a good committed relationship. 

It's very possible to go too far when vilifying a WS. It's wrong to go too far. How far is too far? 

I mean to tell you, I know that this isn't going to go over well when I relate this next part. 

My xBIL, xw's brother, was a cheater, big time. He had his wife, and then a girlfriend or three on the side. He also pursued those he thought he could get away with. Once he was divorced a second time, he talked with me about an open marriage or any type of committed open relationship. He said he was okay with it. He said his steady girlfriend was okay with it. I asked if the women he slept with on the side knew this. He said most did not. Why would he tell them? That pissed me right the f off. And, I'm the one who doesn't respect women? Oh f yeah, sure. 

So, I can't come to a better, easier solution than to just do what he did. I'm telling you, let her do as she pleases. Go get yours. Document. Record. Separate finances. Retain an attorney. Do all and keep all records of what is yours. Do what you want. What is the worst that can happen? You lose everything? I don't think so. You only lose as much as you would if you did not sleep around, too. No difference. Why not enjoy yourself? 

Kids? You'll have to learn to separate them from the relationship. You are supposed to, anyway. Do it and keep it separate. Teach you children by doing things with them on your own, as a majority of the process and let the WS do as they please. 

This is terrible and I expect an uproar because of it. I don't see a better way, though. All this money, time, and emotion spent on R, and you have no guarantee of anything. Why bother? Just figure that he/she will never be faithful and do your thing. Find other things that cause you to marry them because this is not going to be one of the reasons, most likely. 

Learn to accept that no one is faithful, then, when they are, you can rejoice! Why bother being faithful yourself? I wish I would have lived the single life and leaned this, years ago. I was ready to leave my first wife, and then she got pregnant. No, I don't think she is mine. If that is true, I am owed more than a pound of flesh for what I gave up. I'll never get it, and neither will you. Think about it.

We can be respectful and still live. No, it is not worth full trust and respect, ever. It's all about what someone can get away with. We are all just big children. 

Rant away. It's a sad fact and very bitter, but I truly don't see how one can look at it another way. I don't. I know I won't ever be doing this, but it's something to consider, for certain.


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## NeverMore (Feb 24, 2013)

Love Chump Lady! Read her blog daily, she has great advice.


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