# emotional blackmail



## charlie18 (Mar 12, 2012)

My wife uses emotional blackmail to try to keep me in line. Every time she gets mad at me for something I've done that she doesn't like, she threatens to leave. Which means she takes the kids as well. She knows how much I adore the kids (and they me). So knowing the courts will probably give her the kids, regardless of the fact that she has psychological problems, I give in and comply. I can't stand being in this situation. I'm trying to stand up for myself, but I'm afraid of losing the kids in a divorce. I'm basically staying in this to protect the kids from her. She is very verbally abusive to both them and me. I don't care about her abuse of me, but the kids can't defend themselves, so I need to do it for them. What else can I do?


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

Take the kids and leave? Beat her to the punch.


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## charlie18 (Mar 12, 2012)

I can't. She'll get custody. I've seen it too many times. Working fathers rarely get custody. Besides divorce is very detrimental to little kids and I want to avoid it at all costs.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

Document her abuse and then file for divorce if you want out. If you think you can save the marriage then stand up and grow a pair and let her know she's gotta change or else. And you have to stick to that or else if she doesn't.


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## charlie18 (Mar 12, 2012)

That's just it, I don't want the "or else". I have nothing on my side.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

If you don't have an "or else" then all you can do is grin at her and just keep nodding your head yes while taking it.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

If only you can find a way to get her to leave without the kids so you can get her for abandonment...get a free consultation with a lawyer for advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

How long have you been married?

How old are your children?

Your wife does not have the legal right to move your children from the family home without your consent. 

See an attorney to find out what your right are to prevent her from moving out with the children. What I have seen happen is that when one parent moves out of the family home with the children. The other parent can go to court and get a court order that states that the children must be returned to live in the family home. Courts do not like it when a child’s life is disrupted through emotional antics by their parents. I’ve seen the courts do this. But most fathers do not know that they can force this issue.

Once you know your legal rights, the next time she says that she will leave tell her that she is welcome to leave if this is what she chooses but she cannot take the children with her. But if she wants to act like and adult you will be more than glad to discuss and resolve whatever issue she has.

She will stop the nonsense once she realizes that you have as much of a legal right in regards to the children as she does.

I don’t know what state you live in, but most states are trying to give as close to 50/50 custody as they can since it is recognized that children need both parents.

Do not forget that if you two get divorce she will be a working mother. So the custody choice will not be between a SAHM and a working father but between two working parents.

You might want to consider encouraging your wife to go out and get a job. If she does not have work experience and/or job skills encourage her to get and education and/or training. She sounds like a toxic SAHM. The longer you are the sole income earner the longer you will be financially bound to her if she does walk out. So push her to be able to support herself.


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## endlessgrief (Feb 19, 2012)

You have gotten some very good advice so far. I don't know if the 180would work in this situation, perhaps veteran members of this site could shine a light on whether that would work or not.

I am sorry to say this, your wife sounds evil. Using your love of your children as leverage to get what she wants is deplorable. Unfortunately she is right that most women get custody of the children which I think is total bullsh!t because the mother is not always the best parent.

I am so sorry you are in this situation and I empathize completely. Bullies and control freaks make awful spouses (as you have found out) but she is also hurting the kids by trying to keep you in line by making them leverage. Children are not leverage! She needs serious help!

Please see a counselor and even a divorce attorney to find out what your rights are. If you know the law, perhaps her threats will not have the same impact on you. Staying with this woman may break your spirit (perhaps that is her intention). Stay strong and do your homework.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

charlie18 said:


> I can't. She'll get custody. I've seen it too many times. Working fathers rarely get custody. Besides divorce is very detrimental to little kids and I want to avoid it at all costs.


I'm pretty sure living with an abusive parent is worse than a single parent. My advice would be document the abuse with audio and video recordings and pursue custody. She's showing you who she is. You can't change her, she'll have to make that decision.


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## charlie18 (Mar 12, 2012)

Thanks for the advice. We have been married 15 years. All of the children are under 10. We have been to several marriage counsels none have been much help.

To endlessgrief: You are correct. It is pure evil.

To elegirl: I don't want to counter her argument with anything legal, yet. But you are right. She needs to get out of the house. She is a toxic SAHM as you put it. She spends all day just sitting around, on facebook, the phone, texting, sleeping, etc. She does very little in the way of chores around the house. I think I'll try and pursue that.

Kobo: I've been very hesitant to document things, but I think it is time to start. I hate the idea of it, but it looks like if I am going to call her bluff, I need the evidence. However, once the evidence is produced, she will lose all trust in me and feel like I am documenting every move she makes and she will feel "watched" all the time. I don't think that is helpful in any relationship and if there is any hope for us, that will only make it worse. But I think it is time to do something and this may be a last resort.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

If she threatens to leave, pack her bags.
Tell her if she wants to take the children with her, she better call the Sheriff.


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## desert-rose (Aug 16, 2011)

Marriage counselling! Improve your conflict resolution skills and your communication.

She's showing you that you're not meeting her needs and you're not listening when she tries to explain it to you and so her behavior is dramatic to get your attention. Try hearing out her problem to see if her objection is reasonable and if you can give her something she wants.

She knows this tactic will allow her to win, so she uses it. Once she sees it isn't working, she will stop. You've got to get her to see that she is fighting dirty.

She may not understand that she is being verbally abusive. That's another reason that counseling is important. Maybe you can get her into anger management; offer to take the class with her or enroll both of you in it and maybe you can sort of trick her into paying attention to the fact that she's got a problem, too. And maybe then she will open up and talk to you about her problem with you instead of just threatening to leave everytime you don't get what she is saying to you.

By the way, can you give us an example of what you've done that she doesn't approve of? Is it something like drugs or alcohol, or like forgetting to take out the trash?


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## charlie18 (Mar 12, 2012)

Thanks desert-rose for the info.

We've been to marriage counseling before (4 times). It doesn't work because it addresses the problem at the same level you are. It's not a communication problem at all. She has psychological problems. Given normal circumstances, sure communication and relationship skills may work, but we are talking about someone who can't control her anger. Even though she has not been "diagnosed", she displays 100% of the symptoms of someone with BPD (borderline personality disorder). She refuses to admit she has a problem, which is why she won't get help. Our marriage counselors have seen it, but they are not much help in that regard, because she seriously needs a psychiatrist and medication. Most marriage counselors are not equipped to handle such situations. When the last one we saw recommended that she get help, she stopped going.


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## charlie18 (Mar 12, 2012)

Oh, the example:

One day she walked into a room I was in and said "Hi." I replied back with "Hi" as well, but she didn't hear me. So about 10 seconds later she started yelling at me for not addressing her promptly enough when she walks into the room.

I explained that I had said "hi" but she just didn't hear me. That wasn't good enough. She was looking for a fight.

That sort of thing.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Sounds like my mother, I swear that woman thinks she knows everything and she was so mean to us kids..very controlling and now she treats my dad like total garbage..always yelling but oh no she wouldn't ever think she might have a problem..grrr that woman has really screwed me up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

charlie18 said:


> My wife uses emotional blackmail to try to keep me in line. Every time she gets mad at me for something I've done that she doesn't like, she threatens to leave. Which means she takes the kids as well. She knows how much I adore the kids (and they me). So knowing the courts will probably give her the kids, regardless of the fact that she has psychological problems, I give in and comply. I can't stand being in this situation. I'm trying to stand up for myself, but I'm afraid of losing the kids in a divorce. I'm basically staying in this to protect the kids from her. She is very verbally abusive to both them and me. I don't care about her abuse of me, but the kids can't defend themselves, so I need to do it for them. What else can I do?


Do everything in your power to get your kids from this abusive person.

Do you realize in most states she can`t just leave the marital home with the kids?

If she does all it will take is a court order to get them back in the house with you until such a time as another court order can be signed to allow her to take them.
At that point it`s more difficult for her because taking them the first time looks bad for her.

Do something.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

charlie18 said:


> To elegirl: I don't want to counter her argument with anything legal, yet. But you are right. She needs to get out of the house. She is a toxic SAHM as you put it. She spends all day just sitting around, on facebook, the phone, texting, sleeping, etc. She does very little in the way of chores around the house. I think I'll try and pursue that.


You completely missed my point. I did not suggest that you actually file anything legal. I suggested that you find out your legal rights as a father. You will most likely find out that she cannot move the children out of the family home without your consent. 

You say that your wife is abusing you by making threats to take the children. But if you are not willing to do what it takes to find out your rights then you will continue to allow yourself to feel abused and pushed around.

I guess it’s your choice if you want to feel that way.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Well now that us kids are adults, my father still won't leave my mom...how do these women get their husbands so afraid to leave??? Hope you get away from her asap for your sanity..seiously
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lydia (Sep 4, 2011)

I bet if you told her to get out and packed her bags for her when she threatened that, she'd stop.

I'd document her abuse (record it). The courts will not give an abusive parent custody over a parent who isn't abusive. Emotional abuse stands up just as much as physical does... I would document everything - her attitude towards you, her attitude towards the kids, her emotional blackmail and her threatening to leave the home and using your kids against you.

If she truly does have psychological problems, I am sure that the courts wouldn't side with her.

I think the only way you are going to get her to stop doing this, is by forcing her to live up to her word. If she is going to threaten to leave you then she better be ready to actually do it. Force her to follow through, even if it's only for a couple of weeks. If she feels like you need her or want her to stay, then she will continue her threats. If she knows you'll force her to leave, then she will stop making the threats.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Lydia said:


> I bet if you told her to get out and packed her bags for her when she threatened that, she'd stop.
> 
> I'd document her abuse (record it). The courts will not give an abusive parent custody over a parent who isn't abusive. Emotional abuse stands up just as much as physical does... I would document everything - her attitude towards you, her attitude towards the kids, her emotional blackmail and her threatening to leave the home and using your kids against you.
> 
> ...


There has to be proof of the abuse over and above any notes he might make. The police have to be called more than once. Some others who are willing to testify need to have witnessed significant abuse, etc. Otherwise the courts will not accept his story. It just sounds like one spouse making up crap to get over on the other. This happens all the time.

I found this out the hard way when there was no police or other record of the things my ex did behind the closed doors of our home.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

You will need a Plan B just in case she does decide to leave. (Although, I think she won't...people like that are all temper and bluster and don't REALLY want to solve things, or have to do the heavy work.) But, if you are going to tell her to leave next time she does that, then you do need to have in mind who might help you with child care, or will the school have extended day care till you get out of work... you know, the specifics that she is going to quiz you on. 

My ex threatened to take my 3 boys....but I knew he never would. He wouldn't want to DO all the things you have to do for children. He did finally leave, without any children.... two hurricanes hit in the few months after he left... he fled to safety, without any children. He did come back and take the cat. He brought her back 3 days later... I guess he didn't want to take care of her. 

People are weird. 

You have to figure out what will work for you. And you don't have to be a hundred percent sure that it's going to work this way. You take it day by day, try to have a plan, and do your best to be a sane parent for those kids.


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## Lydia (Sep 4, 2011)

> There has to be proof of the abuse over and above any notes he might make. The police have to be called more than once.


I believe OP does need to speak with a lawyer and find out the rules in his state. In my state, my brother has gotten joint custody of his kids by showing the judge screen shots of her FB conversations.
He should find out if recordings can be used - some states are very strict on that (CA for one) and others aren't so much.


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## endlessgrief (Feb 19, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> Sounds like my mother, I swear that woman thinks she knows everything and she was so mean to us kids..very controlling and now she treats my dad like total garbage..always yelling but oh no she wouldn't ever think she might have a problem..grrr that woman has really screwed me up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Same here but it is my dad who is the evil one and mother who is the wimp and puts up with his crap. However, SHE emotionally blackmails us that if we don't put up with dad's crap, then she won't talk to us.

At this moment? She hasn't spoken to me in two weeks. I should be bummed, but I am enjoying the peace!!!!!


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## smith9800 (Mar 7, 2012)

Collect some evidence and fill for divorce. You will definitely get your kids. Its really hard to tolerate emotional blackmailing like this.....


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## LoveInTheTropics (Mar 13, 2012)

Document it. Record it. you dont want her to really walk out on you and have your children submit to that kind of treatment. because if shes treatn u that way, odds are she might end up treatn ur children that way..askin them why they arent promptly greeting her or why their shoes arent tied tightly enough...if shes tryin to look for a fight with you for no reason then shes pretty messed up...dont allow the possibility of her trying to look for a fight with your children just because there is one button undone...find the strength to retaliate through the need to protect the interest of your children..im not suggesting divorce..im suggesting your wife get help other than in marriage counseling..


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## charlie18 (Mar 12, 2012)

Thanks for all the replies.

I have started documenting everything. I don't know how much I will need, but I'll keep it up for a while.

I'll also look into the legal ramifications of everything and what my options are.

Obviously she is a very controlling person. Recently I've started standing up to her for myself and in defense of the kids. She keeps claiming that "I'm taking the kids side over her's", but really I am just defending them because they can't defend themselves. She REALLY doesn't like losing the control she had over me. It's going to be interesting to see what happens when she boils over.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

Yes take the control back and agree with her that you are defending and sticking up for the kids. She will hate this but she must stop abusing you and the children like this.
It will take years for the children to recover from having an abusive parent, they may never recover. You are there to Protect them.
She should be ashamed of herself and sort herself out!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

charlie18 said:


> I'm afraid of losing the kids in a divorce


Charlie,

Fearfulness is preventing you from taking responsibility for your half of the relationship. Fear of the future is paralyzing you in the present. Quit worrying about the kids and quit worrying about divorce. You can only act in the present and you need to act out of strength rather than fear


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

> Charlie,
> 
> Fearfulness is preventing you from taking responsibility for your half of the relationship. Fear of the future is paralyzing you in the present. Quit worrying about the kids and quit worrying about divorce. You can only act in the present and you need to act out of strength rather than fear


Please listen to this and call her bluff. She might leave for a few days, but she will be back.


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## NaturalHeart (Nov 13, 2011)

charlie18 said:


> My wife uses emotional blackmail to try to keep me in line. Every time she gets mad at me for something I've done that she doesn't like, she threatens to leave. Which means she takes the kids as well. She knows how much I adore the kids (and they me). So knowing the courts will probably give her the kids, regardless of the fact that she has psychological problems, I give in and comply. I can't stand being in this situation. I'm trying to stand up for myself, but I'm afraid of losing the kids in a divorce. I'm basically staying in this to protect the kids from her. She is very verbally abusive to both them and me. I don't care about her abuse of me, but the kids can't defend themselves, so I need to do it for them. What else can I do?


 
When I found some articles on emotional blackmail, I saw it line up so close to narcissism. Just wanted to note that


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

charlie18 said:


> She displays 100% of the symptoms of someone with BPD.


Charlie, I agree with the sage advice given by EleGirl. Like you, I lived with a BPDer wife for many years (15, in my case). I strongly recommend you start participating (or at least lurking) in the "Raising a Child with One Parent with BPD" board at BPDfamily.com. That is just one of the 8 message boards you will find at that large forum targeted to the spouses and family members of BPDers. I also recommend you read _Splitting: Protecting Yourself when Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist_. Released 7 months ago, it was written by the same author of the best selling BPD book (_Stop Walking on Eggshells.)_


> She seriously needs a psychiatrist and medication.


If she is a BPDer, there is very little chance she has the self awareness and ego strength to be willing to stay in therapy long enough to make a difference. As to the medication, it could reduce some of the BPD side effects (e.g., anxiety and depression) but it would not make a dent in the BPD traits themselves. But it sounds like you already know that.


> We've been to marriage counseling before (4 times). It doesn't work because it addresses the problem at the same level you are.


Like you, I found MC to be totally useless for BPDers until they first address their far more serious issues in IC. Absent that, improving their communication skills will likely only make them better at being manipulative. Charlie, if you would like to read about my experiences with BPD traits, please take a look at my post in Maybe's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. Like you and me, Maybe has been abused by an angry, unstable wife.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

charlie18 said:


> I can't. She'll get custody. I've seen it too many times. Working fathers rarely get custody. Besides divorce is very detrimental to little kids and I want to avoid it at all costs.


Talk to a lawyer. Get real information based on the details of your situation where you live.

If you get divorced you should be able to get 50% physical custody. Maybe better if you can document her abuse. Whatever you get, your kids will be 100% shielded from the abuse when they are with you.

Right now they are getting abused when you are there, and who knows what they are getting when you are out of the house.

As one who stayed for the kids, I do not recommend it.


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## charlie18 (Mar 12, 2012)

Uptown: Wow! I read through your posts in the previous threads. You seem to have a lot of experience and knowledge in the area of BPD. I am now convinced that she has BPD. I am getting the book "stop walking on eggshells" today. It doesn't look like this is going to have a happy ending. It is so sad to see the kids go through this. 

I am also visiting the BPDfamily web site and reading as much as I can on the subject.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

charlie18 said:


> I am now convinced that she has BPD.


Charlie, if your W does have strong BPD traits, she almost certainly is a _high functioning _BPDer. I say this because, if she were low functioning, you would not have been dating her, much less marrying her. 

HF BPDers typically get along well with casual friends, business associates, and complete strangers. None of those people trigger her anger because, unlike you, they pose no threat to her two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. There is no close LTR that can be abandoned and no intimacy that would cause engulfment. Heaven help those folks, however, if they ever make the mistake of drawing close to the BPDer.


> Even though she has not been "diagnosed", she displays 100% of the symptoms of someone with BPD (borderline personality disorder).


Even if your W has full-blown BPD, there is very little chance you will ever see a formal diagnosis confirming that, Charlie. If your W is a HF BPDer, it would be difficult for a psychologist to diagnose her. Because BPDers are convinced they are victims, they typically complain about their spouses at therapy sessions and are careful to hide their BPD traits. It could take a year for a psych to see the type of behaviors you see all week long.

Moreover, BPDers tend to be excellent actors because -- having only a fragile sense of who they are -- they've been acting (in order to fit in) ever since childhood. It therefore is a cakewalk for a BPDer to behave very normally during the 50 minute sessions held only once a week. The result is that it can be difficult for a therapist to spot strong BPD traits in a clinical setting when the client is a HF BPDer. 

Further, even when the traits are fully identified, there is very little chance that the therapist will tell your W -- much less tell you. For HF BPDers, therapists are loath to list "BPD" as the diagnosis even when it is clearly warranted. One reason is that they know the BPDer almost certainly will immediately quit therapy on hearing such a dreaded diagnosis. You've already seen that type of behavior in your W when she immediately quit the MC who suggested, on your fourth visit, that she see a psychologist.

A second reason is, in the unlikely event the client returns to therapy, giving her the name of her disorder can actually make her behavior much worse. Because a BPDer has a fragile self image, she is frequently relying on other people to ground her and give her a sense of self identity. This means that, if the therapist tells her she is "a BPDer," she may start exhibiting all 9 BPD traits instead of just 5 or 6.

A third reason is that therapists know that insurance companies usually refuse to cover BPD treatments. The standard practice, then, is to list the "diagnosis" as one of the related side effects of BPD -- i.e., as anxiety, depression, PTSD, or adult ADHD.

Hence, if your W is a HF BPDer, there is very little chance you will ever hear about it from HER therapist. I say this after having spent a small fortune to take my exW to six different psychologists -- none of whom ever mentioned "BPD." The closest one of them ever came to telling me the true diagnosis was one psych who, on my insistence, conceded she has "a thought disorder" -- which is what BPD is. The psych my exW saw for the last 5 years of our marriage always refused to tell me the diagnosis, claiming that she believed "labels are not useful."

Remember, Charlie, your W's therapist is _not your friend_. Like an attorney, he is ethically bound to protect his sick client -- even if you occasionally attend the sessions together with your W. Hence, relying on her _therapist's_ advice during the marriage would be as foolish as relying on her _attorney's_ advice during the divorce.

This is why I've been encouraging you to read about BPD traits so you are able to spot all the red flags. And this is why I suggest you see your own psychologist -- for a visit or two -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with.


> I am getting the book "stop walking on eggshells" today.


An excellent choice. If your W has strong BPD traits, that book likely will read like a biography of her life. If you find it helpful and eventually decide to divorce, you would do well to read _Splitting: Protecting Yourself when Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist._ It is by the same author (Kreger) who wrote _Eggshells._ Divorcing a BPDer -- particularly when children are involved -- gets nasty and very ugly real quick.


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