# Long winded thread...



## ltf73 (Feb 23, 2015)

Sorry if this is a bit long winded. Lots on my mind. I am in year 15 of a relationship, 10 years in marriage, two younger kids. And I am generally miserable, to the point I don't know what to do anymore.

It's been a tumultuous relationship since 6 months in. We moved in together after i job offer i got relocated us from her hometown. That stirred up issues of depression that I only began to understand some 10 years after. The short of it, she has been battling some form of depression almost all her life, and starting around 2000 when we moved in together that turned into a full fledged deep depression. From there major typical issues surfaced.

She has deep trust issues. Still to this day she can't trust me, or anyone, since her father essentially abandoned her as a kid. She holds her feelings deep inside, even after 10 years of marriage she still does not talk about all that is bothering her. She has cheated on me, twice. First prior to our marriage (and I only found out after we were married) and again about 18 months ago. She has been on meds for a while now, but has not been doing much good. Many times, like today, she lays in bed, totally disconnected from everything, what little happiness she has is totally drained.

After dealing with this deep depression for about 6 solid years now it's wearing me down. My happiness is being zapped. And being the type of person I am (might as well call it white knight syndrome) it's almost impossible for me to end things.

I just can't get the strength to end it, to move on. I am 41 now, and feel sometimes that the real happiness I could have had is long past. 

Why can't I just do this?


----------



## AlisonBlaire (Feb 5, 2015)

Are either of you talking to someone about your issues right now, or not? I am sorry to hear that you have such a heavy weight upon your shoulders now. I think that you would feel guilty if you were to end things, and that is why you are staying. However, you are caught in an endless loop, but the pit of depression she is feeling is weighing the both of you down. Does she acknowledge that she is feeling depressed, or that it affects you?


----------



## ltf73 (Feb 23, 2015)

Well she has been seeing a shrink for her general depression issues. But honestly I don't think she is opening up a whole lot to him. The meds fluctuate from her being ho-hum to outright depressed, the last couple days she has been the latter. She acknowledges that now, and that took a long time for her to do that. It wasn't until probably 6 years in the relationship that she started to open up to what could be defined as depression. To be honest, for years I chalked it up to her not wanting to grow up, not wanting to take responsibility. I still think that is actually part of it but she more or less wraps herself into her depression to even venture out to any form of recovery.

And besides the depression, the relationship has always had issues. One of the large ones is that so much is throw onto my shoulders. I have a full time career that is not a 9-5 job, I also run my own business, we have our two kids that I tend to do the majority of the typical duties with them, I cook, clean, do the dishes, pretty much the gamut. 

She'll be in bed, most of the time, reading a eBook or watching a show. If I bring up the issue that I need help with things it's almost an automatic guilt trip that "do you think I like not being able to do things" or an argument of some sorts. On occasion she'll throw "well why don't you divorce me" for good measure.

Am I perfect? Far from it. But I have scraped up every last ounce of energy I have to try to make the marriage work, to help raise the kids, to keep my career going, to make my business work. And I am really feeling like I am drowning now.


----------



## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

When she cheated with you 18 months ago (the one before you were married doesn't count because you weren't married yet) was it physical or emotional? If it was physical was it because you hadn't had sex with her in while and she is getting it elsewhere? Are you still intimate or is she too depressed for that?

There isn't really anything you can do about her depression. She might to get her meds changed. Since it seems she can't take care of the children on her own it would be a bad idea to divorce her and leave your children in her care during her visitation. Trying to get custody of them would be bad too as children need their Mom (especially girls). 

My advice is to stick it out until the children are grown and out of the house. If she hasn't improved by then and you still feel this way get a divorce. As long as their isn't abuse, fighting or additions it's best for the children to stay with both of you. As parents we have to put our children first.


----------



## ltf73 (Feb 23, 2015)

First I would whole hardheartedly disagree that the first time doesn't count. We were in a serious and committed relationship for 3.5 years at that point. I did forgive and try to move on. We were a year into our marriage and she was pregnant with our first kid. But to say that it does not count is not how I see or feel about it. And that was because we were constantly arguing and she decided to step out, for months. But then couldn't leave me.

The second was nearly the same, but she puts her depression as the blame. She says that it was not emotional but honestly I doubt it. This went on for a few months, and I had a suspicion since the behavior was just way off. I discovered the texts and they devastated me. I broke things off, but went back to her.

We have always had a problem with sex in the relationship, both of us complain about the infrequency. It's exacerbated with her cheating revelations. 

Also when I discovered the second time she had cheated she struck me in the face, in front of my son. Yes this was out of character, but still it did happen. 

In addition this second time around she tried to kill herself twice. One seemingly not so serious, the second time was far more serious where I had to call an ambulance because she was unresponsive. She was taken to a psychiatric hospital where she stayed for 5 days. Basically it came down to her saying "I will not kill myself" for a couple days straight and they could not keep her. She has not tried this again, but then again she has not gotten to a low point like this till this weekend. Not saying she would try, but it's not like she hasn't before.

So to get this right, your advice is to play Mr Mom and live with a depressed wife for at least 10 more years, to possibly get to the point where I crack and lose it? And it's not like the kids don't see the depression. They interpret as "mommy is always tired" and "mommy is being lazy" and man that breaks my heart when I hear that.


----------



## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

What is the alternative? Leave her and the children knowing she is not capable of taking care of them and she sounds suicidal. That would really scare me if I was you. Have you read the news of women who took their childrens lives and then committed suicide? It happens. You took your vows in sickness and in health remember? She is sick mentally. 

If you didn't have children then I would agree that for your sake you should get out but you do have children and I just feel like you leaving them with her now alone would be irresponsible. 

If I was in your situation I would stick it out until the children are grown. If you do decide that isn't possible then I would think about getting full custody of your children. I just don't think your wife if capable of taking care of them by herself.


----------



## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

ltf73 said:


> She'll be in bed, most of the time, reading a eBook or watching a show. If I bring up the issue that I need help with things it's almost an automatic guilt trip that "do you think I like not being able to do things" or an argument of some sorts. On occasion she'll throw "well why don't you divorce me" for good measure.



Have you taken her up on that good measure? It appears to me like a game? I don't know. :scratchhead:

Seems this has become a very handy crutch for not doing much of anything.


----------



## ltf73 (Feb 23, 2015)

Happilymarried25 said:


> What is the alternative? Leave her and the children knowing she is not capable of taking care of them and she sounds suicidal. That would really scare me if I was you. Have you read the news of women who took their childrens lives and then committed suicide? It happens. You took your vows in sickness and in health remember? She is sick mentally.
> 
> If you didn't have children then I would agree that for your sake you should get out but you do have children and I just feel like you leaving them with her now alone would be irresponsible.
> 
> If I was in your situation I would stick it out until the children are grown. If you do decide that isn't possible then I would think about getting full custody of your children. I just don't think your wife if capable of taking care of them by herself.


Who said i would ever leave the children. No I would fight for full custody. Here is a woman that has cheated, tried to commit suicide and in general has done little in the 8 years since having kids to do things for them. I would be demanding custody.



Yeswecan said:


> Have you taken her up on that good measure? It appears to me like a game? I don't know. :scratchhead:
> 
> Seems this has become a very handy crutch for not doing much of anything.


No I have not, but it came close when the second cheating occurred. It could be a crutch, it could be something deeper.


----------



## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

ltf73 said:


> No I have not, but it came close when the second cheating occurred. It could be a crutch, it could be something deeper.


And something that you more than likely can not sort out for her. Nor does it appear she is being helpful in helping herself. If it were to come to pass I would think the court order would be full custody to you and W to a therapist overseen by the state. Possibly committed for sometime. Seems bad on the surface but it may be the only route to take.


----------



## JustTired (Jan 22, 2012)

Oh wow....your post makes me very sad for you & your children. Depression is a b*tch, I have been there. ...but if she is taking meds & seeing a therapist - I don't understand why she isn't trying to be more proactive about getting better (like changing meds, etc.). Have you considered marriage counseling? I would try to find one that also specializes in depression. Give MC a go for like 6 months & see if progress is made. If no progress what so ever, it may be time to make a quality of life decision. This is no way to live for you or your kids. :-(


----------



## Marriedwithdogs (Jan 29, 2015)

Cheating is a deal breaker. You need to leave. The depression is her issue, not yours. You have stayed longer than most men would. 41 is still young, and it's not too late to find a woman who loves you and a ENJOYS life. It will hurt to file for divorce but when it's done and over, you will feel like a weights been lifted off.


----------



## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

I think you need counseling for yourself, to help you understand why you put yourself in this situation and how you can strengthen yourself enough to either deal with it or get out of it. I think "white knight syndrome" is kind of a misnomer, or at least it's an incomplete term. It makes it sound as though your choice came out of "goodness" and hides everything else that may be underlying it -- dependency, insecurity, etc.


----------



## ltf73 (Feb 23, 2015)

JustTired said:


> Oh wow....your post makes me very sad for you & your children. Depression is a b*tch, I have been there. ...but if she is taking meds & seeing a therapist - I don't understand why she isn't trying to be more proactive about getting better (like changing meds, etc.). Have you considered marriage counseling? I would try to find one that also specializes in depression. Give MC a go for like 6 months & see if progress is made. If no progress what so ever, it may be time to make a quality of life decision. This is no way to live for you or your kids. :-(


I wish I knew why she wasn't more proactive. It could be because she really just mentally can't as she claims. Maybe it's because she is so dependent on me and know I have not gone through drastic measures like separation (with the exception on her second cheating episode) so she feels she can just get away with it. Maybe she just does not want to, or is ready, to feel different.

I think I found a MC that might fit the bill that may be able to re-evaluate her diagnosis and meds and also work as a couples counselor, but this falls into my trap of "trying to save her". This is something she needs to proactively take up, and she is making what seems to me token attempts at that.



Marriedwithdogs said:


> Cheating is a deal breaker. You need to leave. The depression is her issue, not yours. You have stayed longer than most men would. 41 is still young, and it's not too late to find a woman who loves you and a ENJOYS life. It will hurt to file for divorce but when it's done and over, you will feel like a weights been lifted off.


I should have left so many times, prior to marriage and post. This last one where she cheated should have sealed the deal but she never left the house when i ended it and that just inevitably drew me back into her world.



John Lee said:


> I think you need counseling for yourself, to help you understand why you put yourself in this situation and how you can strengthen yourself enough to either deal with it or get out of it. I think "white knight syndrome" is kind of a misnomer, or at least it's an incomplete term. It makes it sound as though your choice came out of "goodness" and hides everything else that may be underlying it -- dependency, insecurity, etc.


Well yes my self diagnosis is really a roll up of my own issues. I certainly have a fear of being alone and always have. That of course breeds it's own dependency issues, but not dependent on a specific person _per se_ but of having someone there to be with me. I've been labeled by a couple of my exes as too nice and that clashes with someone like my wife who partially wants someone to take charge and make most of the decisions while I would rather agreement with my wife. 

Like I said, I am not trying to absolve myself and paint a picture of being perfect, far far from it. Probably wound't hurt to talk to someone about it. It's not that I don't know of my own issues, I just ignore what should be sound decisions for "the sake of the relationship" or "the sake of the marriage".


----------



## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

ltf73 said:


> I wish I knew why she wasn't more proactive. It could be because she really just mentally can't as she claims. Maybe it's because she is so dependent on me and know I have not gone through drastic measures like separation (with the exception on her second cheating episode) *so she feels she can just get away with it.* Maybe she just does not want to, or is ready, to feel different. *In bold...my thoughts as well. *
> 
> I think I found a MC that might fit the bill that may be able to re-evaluate her diagnosis and meds and also work as a couples counselor, but this falls into my trap of "trying to save her". This is something she needs to proactively take up, and she is making what seems to me token attempts at that. *She needs to help herself. It appears she is not. *
> 
> ...


----------



## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

ltf73 said:


> Well yes my self diagnosis is really a roll up of my own issues. I certainly have a fear of being alone and always have. That of course breeds it's own dependency issues, but not dependent on a specific person _per se_ but of having someone there to be with me. I've been labeled by a couple of my exes as too nice and that clashes with someone like my wife who partially wants someone to take charge and make most of the decisions while I would rather agreement with my wife.
> 
> Like I said, I am not trying to absolve myself and paint a picture of being perfect, far far from it. Probably wound't hurt to talk to someone about it. It's not that I don't know of my own issues, I just ignore what should be sound decisions for "the sake of the relationship" or "the sake of the marriage".


I think you're confusing guilt and responsibility in a way. "I am not trying to absolve myself." This isn't about absolution, this is about standing on your own two feet like a man and taking whatever actions need to be taken. And in order to do that, you may have to examine what you are getting out of the marriage, what made you choose it in the first place. Because that was a choice you actively made, no matter how passive it might have felt.


----------



## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

And again, being "too nice" is rarely really about being nice at all, it's about avoiding the responsibility and risk that comes from being assertive and making clear decisions.


----------



## GA HEART (Oct 18, 2011)

Definitely IC at the very least. Perhaps get some for the kids as well. Like has been stated, this is no healthy environment for them to live in. Perhaps the first cheating episode was a "mistake," but the second one? She is making choices and cannot blame everything on depression. It's an easy scape goat.....she's stuck in "victim mentality." Not a good example for the kids. You wouldn't have much problem getting custody in this day and age if you choose that route. I"ve seen men get primary custody for lesser issues. The suicide attempt pretty much wraps that up.


----------



## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Happilymarried25 said:


> My advice is to stick it out until the children are grown and out of the house. If she hasn't improved by then and you still feel this way get a divorce. As long as their isn't abuse, fighting or additions it's best for the children to stay with both of you. As parents we have to put our children first.


You give this awful advice all the time. Why are you insistent that children live in an unhappy home??

Itf, you can get full custody of your children. She will get visitation. You have lived miserably for way too long as it is, and 41 is NOT the end of the best years, by any stretch! Get out and find some happiness for you and your kids!


----------



## AlisonBlaire (Feb 5, 2015)

OP - how are you doing now?


----------



## ltf73 (Feb 23, 2015)

Trying to manage. Thinking a last ditch effort is both of us attending MC with a psychiatrist that can help manage her medication. I brought that option up and she was not happy that i did. 

There are just so many fundamental problems with the relationship.

So it may be a countdown to the inevitable. No one can say I did not give my all and then some. :/


----------



## AlisonBlaire (Feb 5, 2015)

Hey, sorry that it took me awhile to get back to you. I apologize. I am hoping that you are doing as well as you can be in this situation. Have you started looking for a counselor yet, or have you found one? I hope that the both of you will come out better in this situation.


----------



## ltf73 (Feb 23, 2015)

Looking around but there are not many available people in the area to begin with, then to find one that could help her out from a medical perspective is even harder. She has another appointment with her doctor this Saturday but she has been really struggling this week. She called just an hour ago, in tears, feeling overwhelmed but really not for any really good reason. She has been disengaged for a while, again, and frankly does not have much to be overwhelmed about. In the past 48 hours I've done the dishes, 6 tubs of laundry, food shopped, cooked every meal, picked up some things in the house, worked on some things for my business, spent time with the kids, got the kids showered and ready for the night. Then today shoveled the driveway, got the kids ready for school, and headed off to work.

She stayed in bed, watched some shows, read her eBook. Did my daughters hair. Then got up today and got the kids to school.

But she feels overwhelmed. And I can't blame her for how she feels but man when do I get a break here? This has been going on for years now, more so than not.


----------



## AlisonBlaire (Feb 5, 2015)

Is there a history of mental illness in her family? I can hear the weariness in your post and I am so sorry to hear that you are struggling through this again and again...

ETA....

She almost sounds like she is so disengaged/depressed from everything that she doesn't think that she can work, participate in the family, your life or her life. She sounds like she has lost the will to try anything. However, I also think that she is using her depression as an excuse to not own up to cheating on you. Has she ever taken ownership of her cheating? 

Hoping this helps.


----------



## CincyBluesFan (Feb 27, 2015)

If it was just the depression I'd say stick it out but cheating twice? C'mon man. Life is too short to put up with that complete lack of respect for you or the marriage. BTW, you're not too old my good man. 41? You're not even half way through with your life. You can still do anything at this point. You could find the woman of your dreams that adores you and would never cheat on you. Move on and get full custody of the kids for their sake and your wife's sake. She doesn't sound like she can handle the responsibility of parenthood.


----------



## katiestadri1 (Feb 19, 2015)

I feel horrible for your situation. I also am 41, luckily when I was faced with this issue and my child was involved, I had some experience. My parents decided to stay together for the sake of my brother and I (the children). They divorced when they felt we were old enough to handle it, in our late teens. Sadly the aftermath for both my brother and I were sad. We knew our parents were not in love for over 10 years of their marriage. we were not stupid. We saw the lack of love and affection and both suffered some serious issues with getting close to people and learned that being married could result in a jail sentence bound because of children. We both felt it was our fault they stayed together and were miserable. I have been engaged 3 times and refused to marry. both my parents are remarried and very happy for the last 10 years. sadly I wish in my heart they had divorced and gotten remarried to the correct match for them sooner because only now have I seen they do actually have the capacity to love and show affection. as for me, well I am still a work in progress. I hope you stay close to your ex and help her as much as possible for her sake, and I hope you move on and realize there are women out there ready to be supportive and help you through tough times.


----------



## ltf73 (Feb 23, 2015)

AlisonBlaire said:


> Is there a history of mental illness in her family? I can hear the weariness in your post and I am so sorry to hear that you are struggling through this again and again...


Her family has A LOT of issues. I could seriously write page after page. I can understand a lot of her issues likely stem from that. Her mom has some mild depression she is dealing with but not nearly at the level that my wife is.



AlisonBlaire said:


> She almost sounds like she is so disengaged/depressed from everything that she doesn't think that she can work, participate in the family, your life or her life. She sounds like she has lost the will to try anything. However, I also think that she is using her depression as an excuse to not own up to cheating on you. Has she ever taken ownership of her cheating?
> 
> Hoping this helps.


I think that "losing her will to try anything" sounds on point. 

She did own up to cheating on me. The first time it took a year. She was pregnant with our first and I came home from work and she was crying. She admitted to it, which was something that happened a year prior, before our marriage. Initially I thought it was a one time thing but then a year after that I had learned that it had gone on for months.

The second time there was no way she could avoid it. I discovered texts that clearly showed she had cheated, and also almost cheated on me with another. This went on for months as well. I had ended it. She refused to leave the house, taking up residence in an adjacent room. I could not cleanly break away from her and ended up getting drawn back into the marriage.



CincyBluesFan said:


> If it was just the depression I'd say stick it out but cheating twice? C'mon man. Life is too short to put up with that complete lack of respect for you or the marriage. BTW, you're not too old my good man. 41? You're not even half way through with your life. You can still do anything at this point. You could find the woman of your dreams that adores you and would never cheat on you. Move on and get full custody of the kids for their sake and your wife's sake. She doesn't sound like she can handle the responsibility of parenthood.


Thanks for the boost. It really helps right now. 



katiestadri1 said:


> I feel horrible for your situation. I also am 41, luckily when I was faced with this issue and my child was involved, I had some experience. My parents decided to stay together for the sake of my brother and I (the children). They divorced when they felt we were old enough to handle it, in our late teens. Sadly the aftermath for both my brother and I were sad. We knew our parents were not in love for over 10 years of their marriage. we were not stupid. We saw the lack of love and affection and both suffered some serious issues with getting close to people and learned that being married could result in a jail sentence bound because of children. We both felt it was our fault they stayed together and were miserable. I have been engaged 3 times and refused to marry. both my parents are remarried and very happy for the last 10 years. sadly I wish in my heart they had divorced and gotten remarried to the correct match for them sooner because only now have I seen they do actually have the capacity to love and show affection. as for me, well I am still a work in progress. I hope you stay close to your ex and help her as much as possible for her sake, and I hope you move on and realize there are women out there ready to be supportive and help you through tough times.


That is becoming a larger concern of mine. When is the damage of separation greater than that of being in a disconnected relationship at home with your mom. Now there are some differences at the surface. I too came from a family that "stuck it out for the kids" but my parents clearly were unhappy and slept in separate rooms for years. When they finally split (I was 12) I was happy they were because they were miserable.

The small difference here is to this point I have been holding out on hope. Hope that she will be able to shake this and begin to work on herself, our marriage, and her level of participation with the kids. There is no question she loves them very much, but as with my marriage I am coming to understand more and more, love is not enough.


----------



## AlisonBlaire (Feb 5, 2015)

ltf73 - I hope that you are continuing to do as well as you can for this situation that you are in. How are things going for you today?


----------



## ltf73 (Feb 23, 2015)

Today she is having a pretty bad day to start. No real good reason, just is. She couldn't get up to get the kids to school. Mind you I do everything to get them ready for school other than doing my daughter's hair and if she is off of work, drop them off at school. So today I had to drop them off. And she started her breakfast with a beer and bread, and declaring she is having a difficult time.

Also learned that she has not seen her shrink in quite a while. She does see the doctor who prescribes her meds, but it's not like he knows any of the underlying issues of her so how can he judge the right meds to give her. Her next appointment with him is on Satuday, and usually those appointments are every 3-4 weeks. 

I am really at my wits end. I'm feeling tense, stressed. It's coming to the point i have no alternative but to end things, but the ramifications of that will likely be disastrous.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

ltf73 said:


> Today she is having a pretty bad day to start. No real good reason, just is. She couldn't get up to get the kids to school. Mind you I do everything to get them ready for school other than doing my daughter's hair and if she is off of work, drop them off at school. So today I had to drop them off. And she started her breakfast with a beer and bread, and declaring she is having a difficult time.
> 
> Also learned that she has not seen her shrink in quite a while. She does see the doctor who prescribes her meds, but it's not like he knows any of the underlying issues of her so how can he judge the right meds to give her. Her next appointment with him is on Satuday, and usually those appointments are every 3-4 weeks.
> 
> I am really at my wits end. I'm feeling tense, stressed. It's coming to the point i have no alternative but to end things, but the ramifications of that will likely be disastrous.


I really feel for your situation.. ya know....you are in a marriage virtually BY YOURSELF.. whatever your issues are, you have sure as Heck stepped UP to the plate and carried YOUR FAMILY..and that household ..... what would your children DO without YOU in their [email protected]# .... seriously..if anything *you have given them stability* *like no other*.. do not even think you are not a capable man to take charge where you NEED....and that means leaving this woman who cheated on you -how many times.. and I , too, believe it counts while dating..that is a lying betrayal of faithfulness... 

and 41 is the new 31.. you still have plenty of LIFE left..and so much to bring to another's life.. . So sad to see GOOD capable men like you stuck away miserable with a woman who has been cared for in this way ...so much forgiveness (too much!) given to her.....you take on what she should be doing on a daily basis...does she ever thank you -I wonder , does she realize what she holds in her hands...and what she stands to loose ??

And still she can not even push herself to get out of bed in the morning to see her children off to school... very sad. 

I can't say I understand this side of depression...where one can't even will themselves out of bed.. but all of us have challenges.. and choices.. to put one foot in front of the other..

She is her own being.. you can't will her to happiness..to overcome...she has to WANT it herself .. to fight for it...you've given her so much of your life... don't allow her to continue to tie your hands behind your back like this.. 

I dearly hope you make a life for yourself.. and win custody of those children.. Good luck!


----------



## AlisonBlaire (Feb 5, 2015)

Whoa! Starting off breakfast with beer, and not seeing her shrink?? I am alarmed for you and your kids. This is not good. This situation is getting worse for you. 

Please understand that I only say what I say because I am getting alarmed here: I feel like she is using emotional blackmail to keep you in the situation. If you are staying only to keep her from self-harming, this do no one any good. If you think you need to end this marriage because you are sick and tired of exerting effort after effort on your part, KNOW that you have done your best. 

Her issues require so much more than you are trained for. How many times has she sought out real help or tried to do something about her depression in the years that you have been together?

I am not passing judgement on you. If I sound like I am, I do not mean that impression.


----------



## ltf73 (Feb 23, 2015)

Update. So we had a long discussion last night, hell didn't get to bed past 3am. The basic outcome of it is if she can't find it in her to try to better herself, to try to make the effort to improve and to be there for the kids and I then we are nearing our end together. I am not sure what her decision is going to be, and if she does decide to press on I am going to have to be clear in my expectations because we have been down this road before.


----------



## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

ltf73 said:


> Update. So we had a long discussion last night, hell didn't get to bed past 3am. The basic outcome of it is if she can't find it in her to try to better herself, to try to make the effort to improve and to be there for the kids and I then we are nearing our end together. *I am not sure what her decision is going to be,* and if she does decide to press on I am going to have to be clear in my expectations because we have been down this road before.


Classically known as fence sitting.


----------

