# Divorcing, Wife moved on to OM already



## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

I have a thread in Going Through Divorce and Separation here where my story is set out. A few helpful people over there suggested that I post something here since infidelity has become an increasingly important part of my story.

Very briefly - WAW disengaged big time and got very secretive back in Oct/Nov last year. I ignored the red flags, hoping it was only a phase. She had a long distance EA (emails/texts only) during this period but she met up with the guy once and it crashed. I think that she also had a few "dry run" dates and met a few guys. She dropped the D-bomb on me late January and was completely unwilling to even talk about R. She was done.

Almost immediately (within a week or two) she starts a relationship with a different guy she had met in October/November - clearly he had been hovering in the background all this time although she denies this - claims that he just magically appeared out of nowhere at exactly the right time. 

She starts disappearing for days at a time each weekend. It's clear what's going on but she won't tell me or the kids (15 & 13) what she's up to (lied when asked if there is OM and otherwise hides behind excuse that it's nobody's business - including her kids - what she gets up to). A few weeks ago she manoeuvred us (me + kids) out of the way so that she could go off for a dirty weekend with OM - lying about what she was doing that W/E. 

Now the kids are smart and have worked this out, so they confront her and the truth comes out. But it makes no difference. She carries on as before, even though she knows her kids disapprove and are upset that she is still sneaking around and still chooses to spend so much time with OM - time that she could be spending with them. 

Divorce is ongoing and that has a big impact on this too. Lawyer has strongly advised against investigating or exposing as this looks stalker-like and/or vindictive. In any case, I already know all I need to know (who and when - what and where is not important and I don't want to know details anyway). She is already exposed to the people who matter most in her life (our kids) and she carries on despite their disapproval. [Conrad has encouraged me to expose her to her parents, but they won't care, they will have less influence on her than her kids, and lawyer says this would be a suicidal move legally]. I believe that she has been introduced to his circle of friends and colleagues and they welcome her with open arms - so no exposure to be done there. 

I think that there is very little hope of R anyway - things are too far gone - but certainly no hope at all whilst POSOM is in the picture. She is a fully fog-bound WAW and OM keeps her firmly in the fog. She will only realise what she is walking away from with a very hard landing back in the land of reality - and even them I'm not sure that she will fully realise.


Any thoughts, CWI friends?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Well, she appears to have followed a well-worn path. She finds a new love prospect and then starts the process within the marriage that allows her to remove herself to pursue her new love without appearing to have cheated. There are organic marital problems, you see, that have been there for a long time and have reached a breaking point for her. And, oh yes, now that she has finally had enough, there is this lovely man who wants to explore her new life with her.

It's a script that doesn't change much in its basic elements. Some women are very sensitive to shame and exposure, while others seem not to be too deterred by the disapprobation and hurt of even their children. It sounds like your W is in the latter camp.

There's a very good chance that she will eventually come out of her fog, but by then it may well be too late. The standard tools for waking her up are exposure and a serious dose of reality when it comes to finances, professional life, and children.

It sounds like exposure doesn't faze her much and she seems indifferent to the opinions of the children. What about what her life will look like financially, etc. if she is off on her own living her new, wonderful life?


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

Sorry you are here. Please just move on. there is nothing you can do at this stage. Get the best settlement you can,. Don't jeopardize you situationin the divorce. Work on yourself.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Take care of you and your children. She has chosen her path and there appears to be nothing you can do to change it.

Plan your life without her. Do not get consumed with trying to understand why she does what she does. A logical person with high morals cannot understand "crazy". Keep all discussions with her about the D - nothing else.

Good luck.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

Sorry to hear you going through this. The only thing you can do at this point is listen to your lawyer. You can do the 180 but it appears that your wife is too fargone. What will likely happen is that once the safety net is out from under her feet she will likely crash and burn. From a legal stand point i'd try am record everytime she goes off with the OM and even encourage it. You can use that in court to show that you spend more time with the kids. Which should help in the custody. You need to watch your back carry a VAR with you at all times in case your wife tries to paint you in a false light by a fake harassment or assault charge.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Sorry to hear your story Voltaire,

My only thought is this. In a sense, you're fortunate that you don't have to make the torturous decision about whether to R or D. Your wife has made that for you. No worry about spying on her or judging her remorse. 

I'm not offering legal advice, but I don't agree with your attorney about not exposing to her family. Not only does she deserve it, but now she will likely re-write her own version of it to her family. That could be important if by some miracle you two decided to R. I get that you probably don't give a rat's arse right now though.

If you haven't, do the 180 on her to help you detach (find the link) and move forward with your life. Oldest cliche' in the book, but there are others out there who can be faithful to you.

Best of luck.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

I would let her family know that she has found someone else and leave it at that. But questions will come up eventually.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

FWIW, I don't think she sounds like a WAW. She sounds like a cheating W.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

So your lawyers advice is to sit back, do nothing, and let your wife do anything she wants.

You've got a real bulldog of a lawyer working for(against) you.

So basically, anything you do hurts you legally, yet nothing your wife does hurts her. Do you see the error in logic here?

From your other thread your wife is sleeping in the master bedroom, while you are kicked out of it.

She's cheating, she's spending family money on the OM, she's abandoning the family for sex nights and weekends , and yet your lawyer advises you that you have ZERO options.

I'm guessing your lawyer is also going to advise you to give her everything she demands because otherwise she might get cross with you?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Thanks everyone for the quick responses and the advice. I can't reply to the individual posts right now but the advice generally seems to be that she is too far gone to do much with and the only small hope of R (if R is what I might want - really not sure now) is for the A to play out and crash and burn on its own. That's likely to happen as the whole thing is based on lies and cheating but it will probably be too late. 

That's pretty much what I thought. Hard to just write off so many years of marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You can choose to be aggressive to try to bust their A, but since it is far gone at this point, the chances are low that that will bear any fruit.

Your choice.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> FWIW, I don't think she sounds like a WAW. She sounds like a cheating W.


I still count her as a WAW as I think she made the decision to leave a long time ago - and I accept my part in the problems in the marriage. The cheating is part of a WAW exit strategy that has been executed in a very cowardly, destructive and hurtful way. Not that it matters much how you categorise it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

I agree that you should make her parents aware that she found a new man and that is the reason she's leaving. She has probabably already painted you as an ogre to her family. She will continue ro rewrite your marital history.

Do carry a VAR w you in her presence, especially if you expose her to her family. Do the 180 for yourself. Sorry you and your kids are in this mess.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> You can choose to be aggressive to try to bust their A, but since it is far gone at this point, the chances are low that that will bear any fruit.
> 
> Your choice.


And could only serve to drive them together and prolong the A
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

What do you know about the OM? Single? Never married? Job?


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Any thoughts, CWI friends?


Sadness for you and your children. Sadness knowing that a wife/mother could do such a thing. Sadness knowing there is yet another man out there who is enjoying himself at your expense.

Cheaterville . com. That's my thought. 

Then again, I enjoyed taking down my rival/xOM and giving him a sentence of pain, albeit not in the same way - but to him it is as he comes from money and a well to do family born with a silver spoon in his mouth.

Killing his persona was a delight. But that's just me.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

I want to know why she is still in the master bedroom? I would make her as uncomfortable in that house as possible. Maybe you can push her to move out and go live with him. Nothing kills an affair quicker than real life.

Btw, buy a VAR and keep it on you at all times just in case she gets the idea of falsely accusing you of abuse in order to get you out of the house. Wouldn't be the first time that has happened.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> So your lawyers advice is to sit back, do nothing, and let your wife do anything she wants.
> 
> You've got a real bulldog of a lawyer working for(against) you.
> 
> ...


I don't want to go into details for obvious reasons but her bad behaviour counts against her big time. To make that count to the max I need to behave reasonably and not to let them claim that I drove her to it.

Unfortunately in these things the sexes are not created equal. It's very easy to portray men as unreasonable domineering bullies and women as their victims who only behave badly because they are driven to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Voltaire said:


> I don't want to go into details for obvious reasons but her bad behaviour counts against her big time. To make that count to the max I need to behave reasonably and not to let them claim that I drove her to it.
> 
> Unfortunately in these things the sexes are not created equal. It's very easy to portray men as unreasonable domineering bullies and women as their victims who only behave badly because they are driven to it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Im guessing you are following the old document the wife being evil and leaving the kids to me strategy. 

Good luck with that. I hope you are reading fredmila's tale closely


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

short T/J here about fredmila's story.
His WW is at it again with OM since she came back from that travel to home country. He's also forced to move out his house and kids (WW went though with the false charges at court). Story posted at SI, he didn't come back TAM after the latest "arguments".
End of T/J


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Am I the only one wondering if the lawyer is a dumba**?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

bfree said:


> I want to know why she is still in the master bedroom?
> 
> 
> > Choice of sleeping arrangements is either 1. in isolation and luxury or 2. in less luxury but closer to the kids. I'm happy to forego the luxury to keep a close eye on my kids.
> ...


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> Im guessing you are following the old document the wife being evil and leaving the kids to me strategy.


I couldn't possibly comment 




> [I hope you are reading fredmila's tale closely


No, but I will be now. Thanks


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Well, I never thought you would take my question about CWI and act on it so quickly. CWI is intense. Your old thread, very moving, was developing slowly. I wondered if CWI would help you process your troubles faster.

Also, I am struck by the way OPs can get a huge amount of emotional support and advice. It may not replace IC or MC, but it can make IC or MC more effective. A person who has read a lot on CWI, can use other resources more effectively.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

weightlifter said:


> Am I the only one wondering if the lawyer is a dumba**?


No, playing a long game. Aggression isn't always the best way, particularly if you are the H and the W is trying to play the victim card for all she's worth. It does mean taking the hits in the short term, but if the long term outcome is better then it is worth it.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Well, I never thought you would take my question about CWI and act on it so quickly. CWI is intense. Your old thread, very moving, was developing slowly. I wondered if CWI would help you process your troubles faster.


Hey, I'll take whatever lessons there are out there - and none better than TAM. Thanks for the suggestion and the support.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Investigation, exposure, and confrontation are good if you want to try to R, but it sounds like that's a very slim option. If you're not going to R, then it does look vindictive. I think you'd be better to move on with your head held high. Be a great dad to your kids so they have one strong parent to look up to. Do whatever is necessary to get the best divorce settlement. So what if she's hooking up with a random dude. That's going to implode and she'll be in her own personal hell soon enough.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

wilson said:


> Investigation, exposure, and confrontation are good if you want to try to R, but it sounds like that's a very slim option. If you're not going to R, then it does look vindictive. I think you'd be better to move on with your head held high. Be a great dad to your kids so they have one strong parent to look up to. Do whatever is necessary to get the best divorce settlement. So what if she's hooking up with a random dude. That's going to implode and she'll be in her own personal hell soon enough.


Very wise words, Wilson. 

Even if you want to R and she clearly doesn't and you never get near that particular turn in the road then exposure looks vindictive.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

Divorce and reconciliation are two different paths, with different, almost opposite actions.

The problem is that reconciliation is always such an uncertainty - both on her end and on yours - as to how long it will last, will you not be able to get over her adultery, will she be able to stop cheating long-term, will you just find yourself back in the same spot two more years down the road, or maybe even worse yet, will she do everything you need and you still can't get over it and want to divorce a few years from now?

Divorce is a fairly certain path - separate finances and keep the ship from rocking as much as you can until it's over.

If you wanted to reconcile, the path would be to blow up the affair, blow up the other man's life, get him to throw her under the bus, and/or force them both into the harsh realities of life, let her see what life is like without you being helpful, with her living at other man's, with no financial support from you, with her and your family and friends all looking askance at her because of her callous behavior in front of her children.

If you are going to try to blow up the affair and blow up other man's life, it's not something you can attempt halfway. You won't succeed if you don't go all out. And you are full of assumptions that this won't work because of that and that won't work because of this - for example, believing that all of his friends and family accept her cheating. Truth is, you don't know until you try and many betrayed spouses who made such assumptions have found out quite different once they made the effort.

One thing I can tell you is that any information you get from your wife is likely a lie. If you are making any judgements of possible outcomes based on what she says, you are basing your decisions on lies. Nothing she says in relation to other man or divorce can be believed. If she was willing to cheat on you and your children this way, can you really believe her if she claims she'll play nice in the divorce as long as you do?


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

OP, if you attorney isn't finding a way for you to get this tramp out of your life in a hurry, then I suggest you check to see if he isn't working for her, too.
There's no reason that you shouldn't be treating her as a deceased acquaintance rather than a "lost love".


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

If you choose to ride this out to divorce and beyond, then I hope you have taken the instructions for the 180 to heart. This can help tremendously in any case.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

There's a particular form of disrespect I don't think a person should ever tolerate. Once that line has been crossed, it's adios. You marry someone and give them the best part of your life then I think you owe it to the other person not to disrespect them in the most awful way your wife has done. You say fog, I say comfort, she's operating on a comfort level because she can still come and go as she pleases, spent a weekend with OM, come home and wash her clothes and relax, then go out and do it again. OM is having fun but she's not his full responsibility yet, the element of forbidden fruit still exists to some level. Good luck to you, but the way she disregards you and even worse the kids, she should be out the door.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

Unfortunately if you had come here in December there is a lot more that could have been done. At this point she has almost completely detached from you and reattached to the OM. The best move you can make at this point is using the affair fog to push her along and get a better settlement in court. 

If you're willing to try for R with the lawyer you have the best option you have is separating the finances, so more of reality hits her now. 

Considering how tied your hands are, and that it sounds like you have managed to detach to a large degree, it would probably be best to move things toward D and her off into reality. 

You should carry a VAR on you when you're around her for your own protection.

Also try doing the 180 to help you detach further.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

I'm in a situation not too much different from your own. I want to let STBXW's family see the first hand evidence of her infidelity that my she is keeping extremely well hidden from them ~ basically from the standpoint that not only is she an adulteress, but a lying one, at that.

My lawyer feels that this could possibly jeopardize the negotiation process and only gave me the green light for me to do so once the court proceedings are finally done.

Trust me: I want them to know about her sordid actions and welcome the day that I can place those cell-phone/texting records of hers fastly into their hands.

But your attorney needs to work to get your WW out of your and your kids house and life pronto! There is no R that's going to happen here. She is simply a cake-eater of the highest degree. Do the 180, and if your attorney is simply a "weeping willow," you have every right to unemploy them and find yourself a "hungry barracuda" who will look out more for you and your kids than worrying greatly more about whether what you are doing in the legal arena against her is politically correct. You need to keep possession of your house and stick her up the rear-end with some astronomical child support payments! That might give her something else to think about other than where she's going to luxuriously shack-up next with her BF!

And why worry about your attorney? If you fire them, they cannot, by law, represent, nor even communicate in any way with your wife or her attorney. They can only forward your case file to the new counsel of record, but remain totally answerable only to the Court on any aspect of the legal work that was done under the scope of their umbrella!


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## crossbar (Aug 25, 2011)

Geez, your lawyer doesn't have a backbone. Don't do this or that....What the hell CAN you do? Nothing and just accept the terms that THEY want to present to you? 

Well, I hope that the kids are in your corner. They have a HEAVY say on which parent that they would rather be with in a divorce due to their age. 

If your lawyer is telling you not to do this and that, why don't you ask him to get off his ass and file an alienation of affection lawsuit against the OM! He'll probably tell you that it's not worth the time because you probably won't win. But, just the act of possibly getting sued would probably result in the OM throwing your wife under the bus.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

LanieB said:


> I guess I'm just not following along how NOT telling anyone about her affair(s) is the best way to go?? How does this help you at all?


OPh, I'm telling plenty of people about it, but they are mostly my friends and family or "neutral" people. Whenever I tell people about the divorce I tell them about the A. But I haven't reached out to anyone (such as her family, with whom I have never had any real direct contact - always through her, or POSOM's friends/family/colleagues). 



> I've been in their shoes (my mother did the same thing when I was a teenager - my sister and I stayed with our dad after the divorce, BTW), and I'm also in your shoes (my husband was/is having a long-term affair and I have a 15 & 13 yr old).


That's interesting. My kids were very angry at WW but now she is launching a major charm offensive and I am worried that they may lean towards her. I just hope that they remember what she has done - and the choices that she has made to destroy the family and to spend time with someone else rather than them. 




> No matter what, just hang in there and hold your head high.


Thanks


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> If you choose to ride this out to divorce and beyond, then I hope you have taken the instructions for the 180 to heart. This can help tremendously in any case.


Thanks - the choice is not mine - she is divorcing me. I have gone back to the source and read "Divorce Busting" which in my view gives a better outline of the 180 than the list that gets circulated. 

I certainly do need to live for myself and my kids now - WW is almost certainly gone for good.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> bfree said:
> 
> 
> > I want to know why she is still in the master bedroom?
> ...


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

BobSimmons said:


> There's a particular form of disrespect I don't think a person should ever tolerate. Once that line has been crossed, it's adios. You marry someone and give them the best part of your life then I think you owe it to the other person not to disrespect them in the most awful way your wife has done. You say fog, I say comfort, she's operating on a comfort level because she can still come and go as she pleases, spent a weekend with OM, come home and wash her clothes and relax, then go out and do it again. OM is having fun but she's not his full responsibility yet, the element of forbidden fruit still exists to some level. Good luck to you, but the way she disregards you and even worse the kids, she should be out the door.


All very true. 

As for your last sentence, I agree entirely - but she has secured legal rights and I can't violate them.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Attorneys generally go by the old French Proverb, "the more you stir it, the worse it stinks". In this case the chickens have flown the coop. Voltaire is very lucky to be able to unload this gal without her crying and fighting to stay. The quicker he gets this decree of divorce the better. 
Personally I believe exposing the affair, etc., is about 80% punishment and an attempt to force the spouse to stay with you when they'd rather be with someone else.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> I'm in a situation not too much different from your own. I want to let STBXW's family see the first hand evidence of her infidelity that my she is keeping extremely well hidden from them ~ basically from the standpoint that not only is she an adulteress, but a lying one, at that.
> 
> My lawyer feels that this could possibly jeopardize the negotiation process and only gave me the green light for me to do so once the court proceedings are finally done.
> 
> Trust me: I want them to know about her sordid actions and welcome the day that I can place those cell-phone/texting records of hers fastly into their hands.


Amen to that. And you understand exactly where I'm coning from. In my case I just don't think her family would care - I think that they would fully support her "nothing matters but the pursuit of MY happiness" line. 



> But your attorney needs to work to get your WW out of your and your kids house and life pronto! There is no R that's going to happen here. She is simply a cake-eater of the highest degree.


She is cake eating as you say....but at the same time she is divorcing me and she wants it done ASAP so that she can be "free" - she doesn't realise that reality is going to be a huge slap in the face. 



> if your attorney is simply a "weeping willow,"


 No, I think that she is on the same page as your lawyer - it's all about the settlement. She is also playing a long game and her view is that in general the truth tends to come out. So far she has been pretty well right. Give them enough rope....


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

bfree said:


> Voltaire said:
> 
> 
> > bfree said:
> ...


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

crossbar said:


> Geez, your lawyer doesn't have a backbone. Don't do this or that....What the hell CAN you do? Nothing and just accept the terms that THEY want to present to you?


Nope. It's all about positioning for the negotiations so that you have the advantage - particularly if we can't agree and it goes to court. 



> Well, I hope that the kids are in your corner. They have a HEAVY say on which parent that they would rather be with in a divorce due to their age.


Yup. And what do kids want? They want someone who is there for them. What don't they want? They don't want to be in the middle of a battlefield. They don;t care about the rights and wrongs - they just see who started the argument and which parent is shouting at the other (the one that they also love, irrespective of what she has done) for her bad behaviour. 



> If your lawyer is telling you not to do this and that, why don't you ask him to get off his ass and file an alienation of affection lawsuit against the OM!


I don't live in the US and I don't think there is an equivalent where I live. I have already thought along these lines and would dearly love to threaten him with some sort of legal action just to frighten him off and get him to drop her like a hot potato. I have explored a number of different grounds, but have been advised (both by my lawyer and by friends in the legal profession) that it's a non-starter. My lawyer also cautions that we know nothing about this man and so do not know how he might react - "know your enemy" is a good maxim.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Will_Kane said:


> If you are going to try to blow up the affair and blow up other man's life, it's not something you can attempt halfway. You won't succeed if you don't go all out. And you are full of assumptions that this won't work because of that and that won't work because of this - for example, believing that all of his friends and family accept her cheating. Truth is, you don't know until you try and many betrayed spouses who made such assumptions have found out quite different once they made the effort.


Absolutely right. You also need a handle - something that you can definitely leverage and that you know will have an effect. Otherwise you are just shooting blanks in the dark (and look entirely pathetic and impotent). I don't have a handle on this guy. There is nothing legal that I know for sure will start to make his life difficult. In fact the only thing that I am pretty sure that is likely to make him want to run is if my wife gets clingy and needy, starts asking for greater commitment or wants him to get involved with the kids. He's very much a "me, me, me" bachelor type. So letting the A take its course may actually be my best weapon. 



> One thing I can tell you is that any information you get from your wife is likely a lie. If you are making any judgements of possible outcomes based on what she says, you are basing your decisions on lies.


Agreed. All my information (and there isn't much of it) comes from other sources.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

So why don't you pay to have the OM investigated?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> So why don't you pay to have the OM investigated?


No money. Divorce is already going to ruin me financially. And of course the investigation is quite likely to turn up nothing more than what I already know - home address, habits, friends, business address and accounts, when he sees my wife, etc. There could be some great little nugget of information there that I could use to take him down, but then again there probably isn't. Overall, not a great use of my limited resources. Would rather spend the money on the kids.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

She will come to her senses when he tires of her and kicks her out of his life. This will happen. I pray you will have moved on by then.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Voltaire said:


> Divorce is already going to ruin me financially.


Why is this?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> Why is this?


Without going into details - because family finances are already far from good, I live somewhere where property is incredibly expensive and in a jurisdiction that is incredibly generous to wives - even cheating wives who walk out.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

What is your attorney telling you about what to expect?


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Sounds like the UK.

Anyway, Volt, one of the striking things about your thread it the coldness of your wife. There are threads in which the WW do terrible things but the BH still describes something attractive about them, even if they now suspect that the good times were not really good. 

For example, Eric's stbx really treated him like dog shı†, but he still would have tried R if she had just gone 75% of the way to being genuinely sorry. The best she could do was say something like "are we really going divorce?" after a trip with OM.

In all that you have written, you haven't conveyed much positive about your stbx inspite of your desire for R.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> So your lawyers advice is to sit back, do nothing, and let your wife do anything she wants.
> 
> You've got a real bulldog of a lawyer working for(against) you.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

Consider changing lawyers. Yours seems to be broken.


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## BK23 (Apr 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Consider changing lawyers. Yours seems to be broken.


Honestly, we don't know the details of your situation, but if you are already doing this the hard way, a couple hundred bucks is nothing for the peace of mind of a second opinion from another attorney.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> bfree said:
> 
> 
> > Voltaire said:
> ...


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

TAM is the best place, but none of us here are legal experts or have the experience of having been through thousands of divorces. I am always amazed at people second guessing lawyers. That's particularly true in my case where I am not in the US and my jurisdiction has its own way of doing things.

My lawyer's point is simple - don't make yourself look like an a**hole because they will turn that against you later on. What do people disagree with about that? And what am I giving up to follow that advice? Not much. It's all about long term versus short term. Lawyers advice is designed to achieve a better outcome long term. The advice here is mostly based around getting some short term satisfaction of "showing her". Yes, she has behaved badly, yes she deserves what she gets, but she'll get hers in the long run. 

I can't go into details of my legal case (I would be mad to put that out there on the internet) but two posters above understand where I'm coming from. One is going through the same thing and is being given similar advice. The other has guessed what this is all about and what we are trying to achieve.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

bfree said:


> So she cheats and you cannot be allowed back into your own bed? How is it sexual assault? She can simply get up and sleep somewhere else no?


Legally it's no different to walking into a female guest's room and getting into bed with her. You would never do that and would expect serious consequences if you do. The facts that she has cheated and you regard it as "your" bed are irrelevant. That's a bit like saying that because she is still your wife you should be able to have sex with her even after she says she wants a divorce and never wants you to touch her again. 



> Are you serious? I hope someone PMs me and tells me where this is so I never grace their doors.


I'm pretty sure that in the US a wife who claims that she doesn't feel safe in her own house can get her H banned from the house. "We had agreed to sleep apart and he came into the room where I was sleeping and just got into bed" would probably do it. 



> After this is over I would stronngly consider moving. As screwed up as the U.S. might be its not THAT screwed up.


Yes it is. The world over lying manipulative women can pull the victim act and use it to get the court on their side and use it as an excuse for their own bad behaviour ("he was so awful he drove me to it"). That's what this is about - not giving them any ammunition to do that with.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Sounds like the UK.
> 
> Anyway, Volt, one of the striking things about your thread it the coldness of your wife. There are threads in which the WW do terrible things but the BH still describes something attractive about them, even if they now suspect that the good times were not really good.
> 
> ...


Sometimes you come across a post that just stops you in your tracks and makes you think - and this is one of them.

I guess there are a number of reasons. 

Yes.my wife is behaving incredibly coldly, both in what she is doing and in the way that she is treating me - with a heart of stone. I, in turn, am incredibly angry with her about this. Not much warmth there day to day - although I am warm with the kids.

Neither of us is a particularly warm person anyway. We're both Northern European rather than American, and even on that scale we are both at the cooler end, and don't express affection quite so much. My wife in particular can be very cold with people. She comes from a difficult family background, and in classic "Nice Guy" style I wanted to fix her. 

Are you convinced by those explanations? I'm not sure that I am. Do I really love her still or do I just have a bad case of one-itis? All I know is that when I start to think of the times when I saw her tender side (which could be quite rare) it just kills me. I get very upset. I can't deal with it - it's easier to be angry with her or just to try to be indifferent. 

We did exchange a rare moment of tenderness a week or two ago when she sent me a text telling me that she had to go to hospital. I immediately called her and showed concern. She said that she didn't think I would care. We had a nice exchange for about 2 minutes. I was an absolute mess for the rest of the afternoon. It completely knocked me sideways.

BTW, i wrote about that on my thread on Going through Divorce and people over there told me that of course she knew that I would care and was just milking it. 

Idon;t know if that answers your question. I don't know if it answers my questions. But just thinking about these things has, once again, brought back incredible pain. Maybe I'm just hiding from that.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> She starts disappearing for days at a time each weekend. It's clear what's going on but she won't tell me or the kids (15 & 13) what she's up to (lied when asked if there is OM and otherwise hides behind excuse that it's nobody's business - including her kids - what she gets up to). A few weeks ago she manoeuvred us (me + kids) out of the way so that she could go off for a dirty weekend with OM - lying about what she was doing that W/E.


Not calling her on this isn't going to make her respect you. I say this NOT to recover your marriage. I think that is over. I say this because you should have a modicum of self respect and NOT let her treat you and the kids so shabbily...because if you let her get away with it now, she will continue to do so. Now, this will NOT make her change her ways (I could tell you stories) though it might. Instead, the kids need to see things VERY clearly. Trust me, this isn't 'using the kids to hurt her'. It is giving the kids information. In my life, I was kept in the dark and it made me believe stuff that took years to figure out. I wish my parents had given more advice and made things clearer.




> Divorce is ongoing and that has a big impact on this too. Lawyer has strongly advised against investigating or exposing as this looks stalker-like and/or vindictive. In any case, I already know all I need to know (who and when - what and where is not important and I don't want to know details anyway). She is already exposed to the people who matter most in her life (our kids) and she carries on despite their disapproval. [Conrad has encouraged me to expose her to her parents, but they won't care, they will have less influence on her than her kids, and lawyer says this would be a suicidal move legally]. I believe that she has been introduced to his circle of friends and colleagues and they welcome her with open arms - so no exposure to be done there.



This is total BS and I don't mean Betrayed Spouse! What she is telling his 'circle of friends' is HARDLY what she is and what she is doing. She is choosing to be a single woman with him, with MAYBE a trace of "oh...I'm in an abusive relationship I'm getting out of..." She is certainly NOT telling them that she is a bored and neglectful mother who is abandoning her kids so she can screw around! What do you think the married mothers of his friends would think if THAT little chestnut dropped? I know what my friends would think of that! I know what *I* would think of that!

Your lawyer is a pu$$y. He wants a drama free divorce with him printing out a few forms, 'sign here sir...is this a good check? Best not rock the boat and force me to not double bill my other clients by actually having to go to court more than I actually HAVE to....trust me, THIS is in your best interests...oops...my tee time is coming up in 15 so if you could just hurry this along?'

Get a second legal opinon. Expose to her parents. Exactly what legal ramifications are you facing for them to know the truth? This again, isn't to try to change a done deal. She's leaving. It is to have her face the reputation that she so willfully took up. She is a cheater. She is a willful cheater. The PROPER way to deal with this issue is to divorce you, wait for it to go through and THEN pick up with the other man socially...

The only reason I can see for your rolling over like this is if you were abusive and are guilty, she is the primary breadwinner, or because you allowed her to rule the roost far too long.

In any event, but not making things a bit messy, you are giving her a free pass and making it easier for other men and women to treat their spouses the same way. Setting a bad example as it were.




> I think that there is very little hope of R anyway - things are too far gone - but certainly no hope at all whilst POSOM is in the picture. She is a fully fog-bound WAW and OM keeps her firmly in the fog. She will only realise what she is walking away from with a very hard landing back in the land of reality - and even them I'm not sure that she will fully realise.


Well...I'm still waiting to read what 'hard dose of reality' you are giving her.

If I were your kids, I'd go to one of their social engagements where 'his friends' are and have them ask her "Oh, hi mom. Dad's at home and we were just wondering who the man you are cheating with was. So this is him? He doesn't look like much. I guess we'll see you eventually. Nice to meet you all."




> Any thoughts, CWI friends?


A great many and none good.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> I'm pretty sure that in the US a wife who claims that she doesn't feel safe in her own house can get her H banned from the house. "We had agreed to sleep apart and he came into the room where I was sleeping and just got into bed" would probably do it.


Over breakfast: "You know what? I am paying for this house. I didn't cheat and move on. I'll be moving my things back into the master bedroom. We have four bedrooms in this house. You can pick somewhere else. This isn't sexual assault. I do NOT want to sleep with you or touch you. But I don't see why I should be punished for your poor actions. So let me know where you are sleeping when I get home."

Record it. No way she can claim sexual assault. No way she can paint you as being unreasonable as long as there is an additional bedroom in the house where you are currently sleeping.

I would CERTAINLY get a VERY DEFINITE minimum amount of money that your wife would be entitled to access to from your lawyer and give her that amount. Because she's going to blow through your money as quickly as humanly possible if she can until the settlement. Why give her that access?

Do you know what the 180 is?


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

She is getting her emotional kibble from you. You 'care' she is in the hospital.

You are getting nothing but disrespect from her. 

Detach.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

JCD said:


> Not calling her on this isn't going to make her respect you.


I agree, but what exactly do you mean by "calling her on it"? 

If you mean telling her that her behaviour is unacceptable, reprehensible, immoral, cheating, adultery, disrespectful and just downright low down and dirty - all already done. 

Or do you mean trying to be obstructive, to control what someone else does, to somehow prevent her from going out? 






> What she is telling his 'circle of friends' is HARDLY what she is and what she is doing. She is choosing to be a single woman with him, with MAYBE a trace of "oh...I'm in an abusive relationship I'm getting out of..." She is certainly NOT telling them that she is a bored and neglectful mother who is abandoning her kids so she can screw around! What do you think the married mothers of his friends would think if THAT little chestnut dropped? I know what my friends would think of that! I know what *I* would think of that!


All agreed. And funnily enough she is avoiding mutual friends who would think like that. Her new circle seems to be made up of damaged dysfunctional people who cling together and tell each other they are all having a good time. No mothers amongst them as far as I can tell - but my information is limited.



> Your lawyer is a pu$$y.


Oh, FFS, I'm sorry but I'm tired of hearing this on this thread and explaining. I am very limited in what I can say about the legal case because I would be a complete idiot to put that out there on the internet for anyone to read. But two posters above have "got it". It's about winning the war, not about winning some inconsequential battles. It's a long game, and people who come out fighting just for the sake of showing how tough they are don't often win. 




> The only reason I can see for your rolling over like this is if you were abusive and are guilty, she is the primary breadwinner, or because you allowed her to rule the roost far too long.


There is another reason too. And what you term as "rolling over" is simply tactics. Does Sun Tzu say in the ARt of War "as soon as you see the enemy rush straight in and attack him as aggressively as you can"? I don't think so. It's all about choosing the battle ground, choosing the timing, getting as much information as you can, using the enemy's momentum and mistakes against him and striking when it will have the most effect. Plus, having in mind exactly what you want to achieve. I am working towards a specific outcome (which I am not going to outline here but you can work it out for yourself if you think about it). Everything I do is aimed at that, including what you regard as "rolling over". 



> If I were your kids, I'd go to one of their social engagements where 'his friends' are and have them ask her "Oh, hi mom. Dad's at home and we were just wondering who the man you are cheating with was. So this is him? He doesn't look like much. I guess we'll see you eventually. Nice to meet you all."


A lovely thought (and boy would I love to see that) but you know that's pure fantasy. The kids have already been brave in confronting their mother in private. They know what she is up to. Now they just want to put it out of their minds as best they can because thinking about it, and thinking about her choice to be with POSOM rather than them, is hurtful.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

JCD said:


> She is getting her emotional kibble from you. You 'care' she is in the hospital.
> 
> You are getting nothing but disrespect from her.
> 
> Detach.


Yes - exactly what I need to do.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

JCD said:


> Over breakfast: "You know what? I am paying for this house. I didn't cheat and move on. I'll be moving my things back into the master bedroom. We have four bedrooms in this house. You can pick somewhere else. This isn't sexual assault. I do NOT want to sleep with you or touch you. But I don't see why I should be punished for your poor actions. So let me know where you are sleeping when I get home."


There are no extra rooms in the house. 

As I have said above, the choice is between living in luxury in the master bedroom and being isolated (her choice) or living slightly less luxuriously and being closer to the kids (my choice). I'm happy with things as they are if it means that I can be closer to the kids. 




> I would CERTAINLY get a VERY DEFINITE minimum amount of money that your wife would be entitled to access to from your lawyer and give her that amount. Because she's going to blow through your money as quickly as humanly possible if she can until the settlement. Why give her that access?


It doesn't quite work like that (I won't go into financial detail here) but in effect already done. 



> Do you know what the 180 is?


Yes, got the book, trying to live it. But is hard under the same roof. 
And hard to do it for the right reasons (to help you) rather than for the wrong reason (to try to get her back).


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Here is an analogy which always worked for me in relationships:










The glass is your life. The various sections of liqour are the relationships or 'time' in your life.

You fill it with what you want to be in there. In your wife's case, she if pouring in the absinthe of the OM and you and the kids are draining right out the top. Good riddence!

So...your task is to start to pour in other things into your life to do the same to her. Work harder. Be with the kids more. You still have the dregs of interests you had before you married, before you filled up your time with wife and kids. She is making room for them in your life again! 

So pour in more Rugby. Did you used to like theater? I bet there are some shows you might like to see. Europe is RIFE with clubs of various interests who have pleasant people who would be happy to share your interests, be it skydiving or coin collecting. You also let a number of your friends get neglected. Why not mend fences with them?

Don't consult her schedule. Just make your plans and fill in every minute of your time. You will be AMAZED at how quickly you will get over her.

And just something to add: Any money spent by you doesn't go to her....just saying.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

JCD said:


> Here is an analogy which always worked for me in relationships:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for this, JCD. I like the analogy.

I'm doing my best to rebulid things and to get out more. I've got involved with a new group of people at church who have been very supportive and over the winter I helped out at a homeless shelter once a week (but she didn't know I was doing that - she thought I was out with friends!). 

I would do more of this, but 1. I need to stick close to the kids and spend as much time with them as possible - I'm the only one helping them through this and 2. our financial situation is not great and I can't spend too much money.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Thanks for this, JCD. I like the analogy.
> 
> I'm doing my best to rebulid things and to get out more. I've got involved with a new group of people at church who have been very supportive and over the winter I helped out at a homeless shelter once a week (but she didn't know I was doing that - she thought I was out with friends!).
> 
> I would do more of this, but 1. I need to stick close to the kids and spend as much time with them as possible - I'm the only one helping them through this and 2. our financial situation is not great and I can't spend too much money.


Nothing wrong with filling your time with kids. It is sad if it took this to spend more time with them though. Don't fall into that trap again.

Get them out of the house and involved in what you are doing as well. Maybe they want to help out at the homeless shelter as well. Do a websearch of your area. I'm betting there are DOZENS of 'touristy' things nearby that you never did.

New Yorkers don't visit the Empire State building...but they always wanted to. Why not do some of the things you've been putting off? Many of them are cheap and a busride away.

Also, make sure they get into more school activities so they don't just see dad. Don't let them withdraw.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Read Disenchanted's thread. He is working hard on himself. Workout. Get in shape.

re: different cultures
Yes, some Northern Europeans are emotionally detached. The idea of spontaneously reaching out to a relative stranger with a friendly gesture is not done. The portions at their dinner parties are not generous. It must a Lutheran thing.

Your stbx gave you the portion of her life that she thought appropriate. There will be no second helping. You need to push her into a new role, co-parent whom you wish well but nothing much more.


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

Guys stop with the lawyer bashing. I do domestic law (although in the US) and I can see the logic in his lawyer's advice. At least where I am there is a legal procedure that can be filed to remove the WS from the marital residence. I don't know if that's available where OP is. Outside of that, there is little LEGAL value in exposing an affair to family and friends. This is different from whatever personal gain comes from the exposure. Where I practice infidelity usually has little weight in a custody determination. It does matter in spousal support cases. However, if he already has solid evidence of such an affair then again there is little value in continuing to dredge up more. 

The job of an attorney is to resolve a case in the best way possible for their client. In family law especially we have to stay above the emotional meat grinder and come to an objective, reasoned plan which will push the separation and divorce through without multiplying the emotions more than what they already are. I think his lawyer has done a good job keeping him out of the muck and will assume she has a plan to use what she has and calmly negotiate or litigate a fair outcome for her client.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

jd08 said:


> Guys stop with the lawyer bashing. I do domestic law (although in the US) and I can see the logic in his lawyer's advice. At least where I am there is a legal procedure that can be filed to remove the WS from the marital residence.


Not here, unfortunately. She has secured legal rights to remain in the property for the time being. And any spouse (for which, in effect, read "man" given the bias of the courts) who is deemed to be unreasonable or to be physically or emotionally abusing the other spouse can be restricted to certain areas of the home or banned from it altogether. I have already been threatened with this. And of course courts are all too willing to play safe and to believe tales of abuse. 

There is a bit of a contradiction in advice between the advice to lay down the law and not take any more of her BS, and to carry a VAR at all times to guard against false accusations. Any confrontation can be twisted into an allegation of abuse. 






> Outside of that, there is little LEGAL value in exposing an affair to family and friends. This is different from whatever personal gain comes from the exposure.


 Legally it can be damaging if it can be used to portray you as obsessive, controlling, vindictive and completely unreasonable. If you give the other side that gift then it completely wipes out any advantage you have because of her lying, cheating ways. 

If you throw away that advantage, then

"My wife was cold, callous and calculating. She devised a secret exit plan and she executed it ruthlessly. She had emotional affairs before she said that wanted a divorce (which came like a bolt out of the blue to me) and she then immediately embarked upon a full-on physical affair with a DIFFERENT guy who was waiting in the wings" 

suddenly becomes

"I was loyal to my husband for X years, but as you can see from his recent behaviour he is obsessive, unpredictable, vindictive and controlling. Because he was emotionally volatile I didn't feel that I could speak to him about our marriage problems so I turned to others who comforted me. Yes, I became close to them as they supported me but I was completely faithful to my husband until we decided to divorce. And one of them was so wonderful that I fell in love with him. But that was never my intention - it was just an accident of the heart - and my husband's behaviour drove me into his arms. I am happy for the first time in a very long time."

Which story would you prefer that the judge believes? 





> I think his lawyer has done a good job keeping him out of the muck and will assume she has a plan to use what she has and calmly negotiate or litigate a fair outcome for her client.


It's all about the plan!!


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Thanks everyone for the quick responses and the advice. I can't reply to the individual posts right now but the advice generally seems to be that she is too far gone to do much with and the only small hope of R (if R is what I might want - really not sure now) is for the A to play out and crash and burn on its own. That's likely to happen as the whole thing is based on lies and cheating but it will probably be too late.
> 
> That's pretty much what I thought. Hard to just write off so many years of marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You did not write off the marriage, she did....


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> You did not write off the marriage, she did....


She crashed the car but I have to pay the bill


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

JCD said:


> Nothing wrong with filling your time with kids. It is sad if it took this to spend more time with them though. Don't fall into that trap again.
> 
> Get them out of the house and involved in what you are doing as well. Maybe they want to help out at the homeless shelter as well. Do a websearch of your area. I'm betting there are DOZENS of 'touristy' things nearby that you never did.
> 
> ...


Thanks - all good advice and all things I'm doing already


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

LanieB said:


> Ahhh, OK. I'd misunderstood you. I thought you hadn't told ANYONE about what she was doing because you were too afraid it would be "aggressive". I'm glad you've told some people so that you can have some support.


The only thing I haven't done is expose for exposure's sake to people I would not normally talk to. Everyone else gets the full story, going back to the EA before the D-Bomb. 




LanieB said:


> As for your kids - they're old enough to see through any fake "charm offensive" your wife is undertaking. I'm sure you already realize though that this is still their mother, and right now they probably do WANT to love her . . . unfortunately for your wife, if she continues with this behavior, there's a good possibility it will destroy the relationship with her kids. They will realize just how selfish their mother is, and how she is putting their relationship last behind her "activities". And this is NOT something a good mother ever does.


You're right, and I just have to trust them. But it's hard. Just at the moment I feel a little like the brother of the prodigal son. She is the favourite right now because she has come back to the fold and is giving them the attention they have craved for so long, whereas I have been there for them all along. I just have to wait it out, but it's tough. the one thing I mustn't ever try to do is to poison them against her. That's wrong (one of us has to tell right from wrong) and would backfire.


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## mrtickle (Jan 29, 2013)

I feel a great deal of empathy with Voltaires situation, although I don't have kids involved - thankfully.

I am however dubious about the solicitor involved and the advice being given. I am not a legal expert but obviously have been researching UK divorce law quite a bit over recent months.

Essentially, whatever reason is cited for divorce it doesn't have any direct influence in the financial settlement unless the situation is pretty extreme (eg. domestic violence). The two things - the divorce itself and the financial settlement are two separate processes in the UK courts.

Now, generally the UK courts want divorces to be settled amicably where possible, be clean-breaks (50/50 splits) where possible and legal mediation is encouraged where the financial situation is more complex. 

If there is a deadlock and the two spouses cannot agree the terms of the split, even with mediation - or the divorce itself is legally challenged, then it can go to court properly and some of the surrounding factors MAY be a consideration by the court. But if this happens you are suddenly talking about turning a <£1k process into a £14k+ process, so most cases don't get this far.

I don't see how exposing your wifes infidelity to close family/friends in order to try and rescue a marriage would be seen as a negative - quite the opposite I would have thought. Saying nothing could also be seen as being accepting of the situation. Either way, I don't see how this could possibly have any bearing on the legal process, unless you are doing something clearly vindictive, spiteful or violent - which exposure isn't (in most cases).

Equally, I don't think there should be any problems either with asking the wife to move out of the master bedroom, or at very least continuing to use the bedroom yourself. It is your marital bed until such time as you are legally divorced and therefore you have as much right to sleep there as she does. If sleeping there forces her into another room then all the better. There is no way that any court would look negatively on you sleeping in your own bed. Rather like the last point though....YOU moving out of the bedroom almost looks like YOU are at fault for the situation, which could actually be perceived negatively. The only thing I would say is - reclaim your bedroom, but take the advice on a VAR just in case she tries to claim something happened that didn't.

I'm a strong believer that the wrongdoer should move out of the marital home under these circumstances. If you are going to continue to share a house then they should be the ones inconvenienced by it, not you.

So I am skeptical of some of your legal advice around this. I may be completely wide of the mark, but I STRONGLY suggest sounding out one or two other solicitors - most offer a 30 mins free session - to bounce these things off them and see if they concur.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Voltaire said:


> Legally it can be damaging if it can be used to portray you as obsessive, controlling, vindictive and completely unreasonable. If you give the other side that gift then it completely wipes out any advantage you have because of her lying, cheating ways.


I guess many of us don't quite understand how you sleeping in your room (and make no mistake, the master bedroom is yours just as much as it is hers) makes you completely unreasonable. 

Part of doing it is showing that you will not be punished by her actions. There is real judgment behind the idea of getting thrown out of your own bed. It implies you were in the wrong (hence the idea of the husband sleeping on the couch when he is in trouble). Refusing to do that sends the message that you won't accept her attempts place you in the wrong. It also sends that message to your kids.

You will ultimate do what makes sense, but consider the entire message you are sending by your actions.


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## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Thanks - *the choice is not mine - she is divorcing me. * I have gone back to the source and read "Divorce Busting" which in my view gives a better outline of the 180 than the list that gets circulated.
> 
> I certainly do need to live for myself and my kids now - WW is almost certainly gone for good.




Why she? Why it was not you?

A cheating wife who goes out bang OM and come back home and sleeps on the Master bed room and you are not divorcing her:scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I guess many of us don't quite understand how you sleeping in your room (and make no mistake, the master bedroom is yours just as much as it is hers) makes you completely unreasonable.
> 
> Part of doing it is showing that you will not be punished by her actions. There is real judgment behind the idea of getting thrown out of your own bed. It implies you were in the wrong (hence the idea of the husband sleeping on the couch when he is in trouble). Refusing to do that sends the message that you won't accept her attempts place you in the wrong. It also sends that message to your kids.
> 
> You will ultimate do what makes sense, but consider the entire message you are sending by your actions.


I don't want to go into the full history of the thing or too many family details (which will probably mean that this answer does not fully satisfy you, but that's the way it is) but....

Initially she left the marital bed after a big argument and was sleeping on the floor downstairs for a time. We decided that we had to put in place longer term arrangements. As I have said repeatedly above, the choice was between more luxury but in isolation (her choice) or less luxury and being closer to the kids (my choice). I chose the kids and they know it. 

To those who will no doubt say that i should have "punished" my wife by making her continue to sleep on the floor I would say two things: 1. at that stage I knew little or nothing of her A's so there was nothing to "punish" her for 2. The kids would have take her side if I had treated her that harshly and in any case I do not think that that it would have been a good lesson for them to see one parent being deliberately cruel and uncaring towards the other one, no matter what she had done.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Kallan Pavithran said:


> Why she? Why it was not you?
> 
> A cheating wife who goes out bang OM and come back home and sleeps on the Master bed room and you are not divorcing her:scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:


Quite simply because she gave me the "ILYBINILWY - it's over" speech and went straight to the lawyers. No delay, no period of reflection, no time to see whether R might be possible. She was in a BIG hurry - and still is.

At the time I was still reeling from the D-bomb and was trying to work out what i wanted and whether there was any chance of R. And she had filed before I was aware of any of her As - I had suspicions but they were very vague.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

Voltaire, I hope the next three or four wives treat you a little better than this one. Are you sure you are making her comfortable in "her time of need"?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

I saw this on another thread (MrTickle's) and it struck me as one of the few effective things I can do to shake up my STXW:



turnera said:


> The best dose of reality I've seen on forums is this: When they ask about the future after you divorce, make it EXCEEDINGLY CLEAR that you will NOT be her friend and will have NO REASON to ever talk to her again because she now is NOT your friend, as friends don't HURT each other. You will pick real friends who protect you.
> 
> That one thing has done more to wake up WS than anything I can think of; it's something in the psychology of cheating, that you NEED to still have your spouse like you and want to be your friend. Dispelling that is a great kick in the guts.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> She crashed the car but I have to pay the bill


Sadly, in most cases you, your WW and even the kids end up sharing that bill.

Because it is a debt from one persons selfishness......


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Voltaire said:


> She crashed the car but I have to pay the bill


See there's the thing. You have y eat drink breathe poop.

Paying her bills inst one of the things you must do.

Tsung Tzu wrote about war. War requires fighting and engagement of the enemy. 

I think the frustration that most Americans have with the current approach is that it never lead to engagement, it will lead to a polite yet not equitable settlement where you rationalize how it coud be worse, she could have taken the shirt off your front not just the shirt off your back,

I'm not sure of what kind of support you seek. You have chosen the path of the rock. You will neither move nor act agsinst your betrayer. Yet, be warned because the water flowing past the rock wears down even granite to grains of dust,


Perhaps as an American I'm rash, but I wont accept someone else choosing my fate. I may get it wrong, but it will be at my own hands not done one else's betrayal.

Your wife has learned to play the game to her advantage. Meanwhile your lawyer has refused to let you walk onto the field,

Ok, that is your right to choose, but I'm left wondering if you won't do anything why ask what can you possibly do?

War is won through intelligence , planning, action, and luck,

Yet you won't gather intelligence, you plan to wait, you are waiting, and do far luck has not been with you.

So it comes down to how can we serve you?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Shaggy, thanks for your response. You ask a very relevant question and I will do my best to answer later on. But first a couple of comments.




Shaggy said:


> I think the frustration that most Americans have with the current approach is that it never lead to engagement, it will lead to a polite yet not equitable settlement where you rationalize how it coud be worse, she could have taken the shirt off your front not just the shirt off your back,


There are two separate battles going on here - the legal and the emotional. You refer above to the legal battle, where the system is designed to produce the sort of outcomes that you talk about. In my case I am only giving you part of the story because I am not saying much about the legal battle (which is just entering a critical phase) - it would be very foolish of me to write about that openly on the internet. But there is a VERY BIG PRIZE to be won in the legal battle (I can't yet say what that is but if you think about it you can work it out). Winning that prize requires me to be able to show her behaviour to be as awful as it is. That, in turn, requires me to be Mr Reasonable in order to deny the other side the opportunity to portray me as the nasty, controlling unreasonable husband - the story that is sooooooooo easy to sell to the court. 

It is very deliberate and very strategic. 




> Perhaps as an American I'm rash, but I wont accept someone else choosing my fate.


Well, you acknowledge above that someone else does choose your fate - its called the court system. And you've got to work within it. 



> Your wife has learned to play the game to her advantage.


No, my wife is busy doing things to suit herself in the short term without thinking about the fact that those actions have some very serious longer term consequences. I'm not going to stop her, even if it costs me in the short term. That's the kind of strategic thinking that Sun Tzu was talking about. 



> I'm not sure of what kind of support you seek.


A number of posters have commented that my wife is particularly cold and callous. I'm facing an exceptional set of circumstances

In terms of exposure - well its a mantra around here that exposure ends affairs. I've not seen much evidence that that is a universal truth. I think it depends on the circumstances. In my case, if my wife is willing to disregard the disapproval of her own children whose disapproval do you think will suddenly make her end the affair?

As for OM, what I know about his is that he appears to be a bit of a player - narcissist/attention seeker, into his bachelor lifestyle, friends all seem to be of similar mindset/lifestyle, no close family or associations with churches, etc., quite happy for all of this to be laid out for all to see on the internet. So my current intelligence tells me that trying to expose him is likely to have no effect but to make me look weak and obsessive - not attractive. 

So, what do you suggest in terms of expousre? As someone rightly observed above, not every AP is sensitive to exposure and my wife seems to be one of those people. If she doesn't care what her kids think...

In terms of intelligence, I know about the affair, I set out above what I know about OM. What else do you think that I could find out that would be useful to me? 

In terms of other stuff, such as living arrangements - well I've explained my reasoning until I am blue in the face and I don;t quite understand what advantage I'm supposed to gain, except for the opportunity for a bit of macho posturing - exactly the sort of thing that would jeapodise my ability to get hold of the big prize in court.

So, to answer your question, what I came her for was some "out of the box" suggestions given that my wife is such an extreme case. The advice to "expose more" seems based on blind faith that exposure is the answer to everything - even though at least one poster has noted that it isn't always the answer, and also that in my particular case (given what is going on on the legal side) it has huge risks attached (which people seem to just brush off as my lawyer being weak, even though a real lawyer has confirmed on here that it is good, sensible advice). 

I love TAM. The support you get here is fantastic. But you asked me what I was looking for and I am looking for something that goes a bit beyond the standard advice because I am not in the standard situation. This is true both because of my wife's incredibly callous behaviour and refusal to feel even the slightest shame and also because of the legal situation - which I am not willing to talk about too much here as we are just getting into the meat of it. It's unusual for someone here to be fighting both the legal battle and the A at the same time.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

In short the legal system is skewed in favor of women
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Did she ever get to see your anger ?


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> See there's the thing. You have y eat drink breathe poop.
> 
> Paying her bills inst one of the things you must do.
> 
> ...


Yes, but...

You like war analogies, Shaggy? How about the Battle of Pharsalus?

Short run down: Pompey had more troops, more supplies and an advantageous tactical position. 

Caesar was in a box and far from anywhere he could resupply. His troops were tired, hungry, outnumbered and had been defeated and chased for a week or so.

All Pompey had to do was follow Caesar till he dropped and block him from getting to supplies...which was already half accomplished.

This wasn't manly enough for the many Senators with him. "You can't just STARVE him out..you need to show him who is boss! You need to WIN!"

Pompey caved. Then his left flank caved...then their side of the civil war caved.

I think we are running into a cross cultural difference of opinion here. Voltaire comes from the position that if he's in a bar and some ruffian mocks and baits him, by showing he doesn't care and can't be riled, he is truly 'above it all.'

In America, generally one gives the guy a pop in the nose (or the nads) to show him that troubling you is not without potentially extreme costs.

Now...which is better? Not sure. During The Troubles, Britain was 'resolute' during all the IRA bombings, acting like nothing was different. The Troubles went on for a long time.

After 9/11, we destroyed two countries. It cost us a lot but...there isn't a spate of bombings here anymore, despite what the press wants it to look like.

Pick your poison...but Voltaire's chosen his path and so it is OUR job, as TAMer's to come up with the very best advice we can *within the framework of his choices.*

He isn't doing anything WRONG...just a bit off compared to how we would generally do it.


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## Everafter2013 (Feb 11, 2013)

Voltaire said:


> So, to answer your question, what I came her for was some "out of the box" suggestions given that my wife is such an extreme case. The advice to "expose more" seems based on blind faith that exposure is the answer to everything - even though at least one poster has noted that it isn't always the answer, and also that in my particular case (given what is going on on the legal side) it has huge risks attached (which people seem to just brush off as my lawyer being weak, even though a real lawyer has confirmed on here that it is good, sensible advice).
> 
> I love TAM. The support you get here is fantastic. But you asked me what I was looking for and I am looking for something that goes a bit beyond the standard advice because I am not in the standard situation. This is true both because of my wife's incredibly callous behaviour and refusal to feel even the slightest shame and also because of the legal situation - which I am not willing to talk about too much here as we are just getting into the meat of it. It's unusual for someone here to be fighting both the legal battle and the A at the same time.


If you don't want to go the aggressive route and expose...you only have one choice left: JUST LET HER GO. Easier said than done yes. But just ask yourself, would you marry her if you knew she was this cold and callous? Focus on her appalling traits. You'll get there. Focus on you children and your wellbeing now. Who cares what she is doing with OM? Our feelings are fleeting. Even if you feel it hurts just to breathe now...it will pass. You won't feel like this forever. 5 years from now I bet you will be happily in love with someone else and when you look back, you'll thank her for giving you a chance to go out there and meet someone better. You definitely deserve better than your STBXW. Just let her go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Voltaire, no, it isn't unusual at ALL to be fighting the A and the D at the same time.

But...why are you fighting the A? She is doing you a favor and you need to get your head around that. The horse is gone. No need to lock the barn door anymore.

Now, as one of OUR cultural norms, you don't really respect someone unless they earn it by not putting up with nonsense, at least in some way. Fear is also a good substitute for respect.

Now...the way you are acting, smoothing the path, maybe someday, wistfully looking back over the decades, your soon to be ex wife will say "you know...Voltaire really took the high road when I screwed him over lo those many MANY years ago..."

Then she will drop dead because she'll be in her 90's.

Our opinion is if she is uncertain of you, not sure what you are going to do...has to treat you with a bit of trepidation, she will NOT think that she can treat you badly with impunity.

Now...I get you have the Great White WASP thing going on: where each of you keeps things 'civil' and tries to 'keep things from becoming unseemly'. And IF both of you hold to this script, you may very well have a trouble free non-acrimonious divorce. I've heard of them (I put them on the list with other things I've heard of but not seen...like Father Christmas and the Tooth Fairy)

However, may I point out that you are running scared from the legal system like an American from a plate of Haggis. IF she discovers this and uses it, you need to go OFF script.

You will need to rattle her cage so that even IF she rapes you legally (and you have as much as admitted that she can) that you have sufficient options and fortitude to cure her of the delusion that she is immune to blowback.

I will leave it to you to devise such stratagems.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Everafter2013 said:


> If you don't want to go the aggressive route and expose...you only have one choice left: JUST LET HER GO. Easier said than done yes. But just ask yourself, would you marry her if you knew she was this cold and callous? Focus on her appalling traits. You'll get there. Focus on you children and your wellbeing now. Who cares what she is doing with OM? Our feelings are fleeting. Even if you feel it hurts just to breathe now...it will pass. You won't feel like this forever. 5 years from now I bet you will be happily in love with someone else and when you look back, you'll thank her for giving you a chance to go out there and meet someone better. You definitely deserve better than your STBXW. Just let her go.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks. 

My head came to a similar conclusion some time ago. My heart is now rapidly catching up - and this thread has helped in that regard.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

JCD said:


> However, may I point out that you are running scared from the legal system like an American from a plate of Haggis. IF she discovers this and uses it, you need to go OFF script.


Not running scared at all. Recognising the limitations of the system (anti-male bias), working within them (you'd be a fool to ignore them) and focusing on my desired outcome (the big prize I refer to above). That includes behaving in a way that strengthens my case and undermines hers. That's smart, not weak. 

You talk of respect. She'll certainly respect me when her argument falls apart because she has been stupid and thought only of her short term pleasure-seeking whilst I have been more disciplined and strategic. And she knows full well that that is what I am like - clever, strategic, playing my cards close to my chest. And THAT makes her fear me (she told me this just this morning) without having to scream and shout and do stupid things that could be used against me and could undermine my case and my goals. 



> You will need to rattle her cage so that even IF she rapes you legally (and you have as much as admitted that she can)


Only because that is the system - anyone (and particularly women) in a western country can cynically milk the marriage, enjoy a nice standard of living provided by their spouse, behave appallingly and still walk off with half the assets. 




> that you have sufficient options and fortitude to cure her of the delusion that she is immune to blowback.


Revenge is a dish best served cold, as the saying goes. Once the court process is over I will have a free-er hand to act. But actually by that time the blowback may have already knocked her on her backside. She thinks that her bf is the love of her life, but in reality he is a narcissistic player who is using her for a bit of short term fun whilst she is free to act like a single woman. 

But whilst she's having her fun she is also digging a deeper and deeper hole for herself - in a number of different ways, both legally and emotionally. 


I would just prefer the A to end sooner rather than later so that I can see if she de-fogs, see whether there is any hope for R, and see whether I actually want R (which I will only be able to judge if the opportunity presents itself - she has been so awful I don't know if I want her back at this stage). That's what i would like help with. If that doesn't happen, then D happens for certain. Either way she crashes and burns very badly sooner or later because her A is not going to last forever.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

> I would just prefer the A to end sooner rather than later so that I can see if she de-fogs, see whether there is any hope for R, and see whether I actually want R (which I will only be able to judge if the opportunity presents itself - she has been so awful I don't know if I want her back at this stage). That's what i would like help with. If that doesn't happen, then D happens for certain. Either way she crashes and burns very badly sooner or later because her A is not going to last forever.


You dont want someone who doesn't want you.

Nice little grandmotherly advice I got as a kid.

I am not typical of TAM in many ways. One of them is I think that 'Fog' is frequently a bit of denial that BS's run on themselves to rationalize away the break up.

Now, I've BEEN in the fog. So to a certain extent it exists! But...it isn't as all encompassing as to gloss over the fact that the WS just isn't that into you any more. It HELPS but it didn't really cause the seperation.

Much easier to pretend that the WS is temporarily crazy.

Dude...she isn't into you anymore. She might come back and maybe you can take up where you left off...but it won't be the same.

Now, I can live with being second choice IF the first choice was before me i.e. she had a guy she was really into but he got married, died, they broke up, whatever.

I would find it much harder if I WAS her choice at one point...and she walked away and chose another.

That is on you. It isn't a dishonorable position to do so for your kids. But she's walking away from them too. How good of a mother can she be?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

To me, 'the fog' is real love, but not whole, natural, healthy love. It is different because you are married and can't pursue your love in the open and unashamed. With the restrictions placed on the relationship, you don't get to know the person you think you are in love with in a comprehensive and healthy way. By sneaking around and holding the secret, the fog of love becomes exciting. Affair fog is also a comparative love: the person you think you are in love with is raised in your estimation in comparison to your spouse, whom you are downgrading, and it is a perpetual, defining and sustaining competition.

Some affairs actually do survive the eventual emergence from the fog, but statistically (however accurate these may be) most don't. As so many say, it isn't real life. For me, it's real, but not complete or healthy.

(I realize that OP's WW no longer feels any need for secrecy. She's still quite foggy, though, in my opinion.)


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

JCD said:


> You dont want someone who doesn't want you.
> 
> Nice little grandmotherly advice I got as a kid.
> 
> ...


JCD thanks for your reply. As ever your post is to the point and well thought through. I appreciate that a lot.

My head really can't argue at all with what you say. My heart is taking a while to catch up, but it's getting there - pretty quickly now.

As far as the fog goes - yes, I agree with you that it is over-stated sometimes and that BS's sometimes try to avoid some or all of the blame for marriage difficulties. Personally I believe that the fog is not about madness but about perspective - getting locked into a desperate, black-and-white world view where everything old is tainted and repulsive and the cause of all of life's problems, everything new or in the future is shiny and perfect, where "happiness" is the only thing that matters and where there is a belief that short term pleasure seeking is the only thing that brings happiness. Everything else counts for nothing (including most if not all of the things that people value about marriage). 

With my particular wife there are other factors at work, to do with her family history, that only compound an approach that is self-centred and disconnected from reality. for those reasons she may never emerge from the fog. 

But if she does come out of it, I would like at least to have a discussion with the woman I married. Frankly, she may very well say "I made a huge mistake and did some stupid and hurtful things. I can see more clearly now - but I'm still not into you any more". Of course what I am hoping is that she will say all that (without the last half sentence), show true remorse and ask if I would consider R. I'm hoping for that both because I just want a heartfelt apology for all the hurt that she has caused (although I have reconciled myself to never getting this) but mostly because I want to get to be the one who chooses whether our marriage ends or not.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> To me, 'the fog' is real love, but not whole, natural, healthy love. It is different because you are married and can't pursue your love in the open and unashamed. With the restrictions placed on the relationship, you don't get to know the person you think you are in love with in a comprehensive and healthy way. By sneaking around and holding the secret, the fog of love becomes exciting. Affair fog is also a comparative love: the person you think you are in love with is raised in your estimation in comparison to your spouse, whom you are downgrading, and it is a perpetual, defining and sustaining competition.


I think that that is a very good description of "affair fog". I think that Walk Away Spouses have their own, slightly broader sort of fog where they fall in love not just with a person but with a dream of a completely new life - either built around that person or built around a fantasy of "freedom". 



> (I realize that OP's WW no longer feels any need for secrecy. She's still quite foggy, though, in my opinion.)


Absolutely. Her fog is the sort I describe above. She believes that if only she gets out of our marriage and gets her "freedom" then her life will be wonderful. 

The openness about OM is far from total and is an uncomfortable one. It is only open within the family because daughter confronted her and forced the truth out of her - even though it was obvious what was going on. But this exposure, even to her daughter, caused no change in her behavour. Outside the immediate family I don't know how many people know about it. I think she is shunning a lot of people who she knows would disapprove of her affair using the excuse to herself that "she has changed adn isn't into those people any more". Of course where she can tell a limited version of the truth without fear of challenge - e.g. at work and to his friends - she tells a nice tale of being a victim and probably tells many people that he is just a wonderful supportive friend 9if she tells them about him at all). 

I think that she believes that this A is her last chance at true happiness and of feeling desirable and desired (she is mid-40s) and is clinging to it for all its worth - no matter what the consequences. For her, the fog is:
- the "no matter what the consequences"
- her inability to see that the "love of her life" is a narcissistic player who will dump her as soon as his next target comes along 9and he seems to be constantly on the hunt)
- her belief that short term pleasure seeking is the key to long term happiness and contentment
- the false comparison between the excitement of the affair and the reality of marriage.


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## duketogo (May 3, 2013)

If you want to save the marriage I think you have one major move to make and it is a bold one. Is your wife the jealous type? Nothing snaps a women out of the fog when she sees that she's being replaced, especially by a hotter and younger female. Find a female acquaintance to pretend to be your new "love interest," or just pay one. Make sure she is younger and hotter than your wife. Make it known that you're going on "dates" with her and and have your wife overhear you talking to her. Once your wife sees that your moving one with a younger and hotter woman, she will want you back. Find a willing partner if you got nothing to lose.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

duketogo said:


> If you want to save the marriage I think you have one major move to make and it is a bold one. Is your wife the jealous type? Nothing snaps a women out of the fog when she sees that she's being replaced, especially by a hotter and younger female. Find a female acquaintance to pretend to be your new "love interest," or just pay one. Make sure she is younger and hotter than your wife. Make it known that you're going on "dates" with her and and have your wife overhear you talking to her. Once your wife sees that your moving one with a younger and hotter woman, she will want you back. Find a willing partner if you got nothing to lose.


Interesting suggestion.

I did try to make my wife a little bit jealous by not telling her where i was going and hinting that there were other women around. She initially showed a bit of interest but doesn't really seem to care now. Maybe that's because she is so wrapped up in her own affair or maybe it's because she feels "safe" as nothing appears to be happening with me on the emotional/dating side. 

I have 4 questions about this:
1. Could I keep it up? To make this convincing I would have to act like someone in love 24/7 for a sustained period, not just parade a hot woman in front of her once.
2. Would someone who is fully loved-up themselves and who acts like they are completely over their ex really care what their ex is up to?
3. How would the kids react - this could backfire spectacularly if "Mom is betraying Dad" becomes "and Dad is betraying Mom right back" in their minds.
4. Could this backfire in a different way - if she thinks that I have moved on to someone else might she just feel less guilty about her own affair? STBXW did, at one point, encourage me to contact my previous GF on the basis that she was "more suited to me." This was just her trying to feel less guilty.

I'd certainly be up for it, but I think to be maximally effective the "other woman" would need to be more of an unseen threat - texts, guarded phone, secret phone calls with little laughs and soft voice, etc.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Just date. Even if just coffee. Talk with other women. It will help. There does not have to some artificial thing
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Why obsess over this? Your social calender is wide open now.

No, do NOT betray your wife. However, one of the things which a married couple does is respect your spouse by maintaining strong boundaries.

For example, I no longer dine alone with a SINGLE other woman. Multiples are okay (mulitiples are ALWAYS okay). If she's married, I make sure her husband is there if I dine with her.

BUT...now you are free to have lunch and dinner with anyone you want to. Not sex. Just...social interaction. Have a splendid time learning about new people.

And as far as the kids go? Exactly what is wrong with having a frank and honest discussion with them? Honestly, you NE! "As you know, your mother is dating and probably engaging in less savory activities with another man. We don't need to air our dirty laundry to the neighbors, but it's important as family members to know what is going on. Since she has treated her vows so shabbily, I feel myself free to invite women to join me for lunch and dinner. I will NOT, however, engage in any of the actitivies your mother is until I have a divorce decree in hand."

How hard is that? WHEN word of your newfound attitude filters back to her...probably nothing will happen. "Hoo hum! Now I can play some more." Or she'll try to make it more than it is. Keep things proper (I seriously doubt you'll have ANY trouble in that regard... ) and you have nothing to worry about...except maybe keeping these ladies from honoring YOUR boundaries.

I don't see a downside for you. Keep it light, keep it public and keep it lunch. And document EVERYTHING. When she leaves. When she gets back. How much time she spends with the kids. Where you go, what you do.

Have a trail. Be like Caeser's wife was SUPPOSED to be.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

JCD said:


> Why obsess over this? Your social calender is wide open now.


I'm not obsessing. I was just wondering about the suggestion to do something specifically to make STBXW jealous.

As far as socialising is concerned, I've got a new and very supportive social circle that includes quite a few women. One of them is a journalist who wrote a dating column in a local paper for a couple of years. Another runs a beauty salon with loads of clients who is dying to fix me up with some of them. A (male) recently divorced friend has just thrown himself into the dating game and he is beginning to have a lot of fun and he's dying to show me the ropes. And I'm also starting a course for those dealing with divorce in about a month, so that will open up a new (and very safe) group of people - that course tends to throw up a relationship or two every time it's run, I understand. So no shortage of opportunities or potential introductions. In a way it's almost too much - I want to start a little more slowly with no pressure/expectations. 




> For example, I no longer dine alone with a SINGLE other woman. Multiples are okay (mulitiples are ALWAYS okay). If she's married, I make sure her husband is there if I dine with her.


Oh, my STBXW saw nothing wrong in going for dinner with other men BEFORE she said she wanted a divorce - and throwing it in my face that it was none of my business who she saw. 




> And as far as the kids go? Exactly what is wrong with having a frank and honest discussion with them?


This, actually, is one of the sticking points. I did have a discussion with my D about the possibility of me dating and she was pretty negative on the idea. The kids have been very stung and have felt abandoned by their mother just going off with someone else (and lying to them about it). They're afraid that I will do something similar if I start dating and want to hang on to me. I need to be very very sensitive to that - whilst at the same time doing what I need to do. 





> Honestly, you NE!


You'll have to translate that for me, but I think I get the drift. Didn't they tell you that it's the quiet, respectable ones you have to look out for? 




> And document EVERYTHING.


Oh, trust me - I've been doing that for quite a while now.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

Listen her affair is fake. Just date you and you will eventually find someone interesting. You don't even have to do anything special. This is about you and your interests. So if you are making it about her then there is no point in it. You go have fun and be carefree. That is what it is about. Getting you back to a healthy place where you aren't burdened by the affair and you generally could care less what your WW is up do because you have checked out.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

If you work on yourself on all fronts, you have the best chance of getting good outcomes on all fronts. You eat healthy and work out so that you feel and look good. You pay attention to your grooming and clothes. You foster outside interests that allow you to meet people and be social. You respect the people you have in your life, including your new social circle, such that your interactions are fulfilling to you and build capital for the future with others.

In other words, you just live the life of a person who loves and respects himself and loves and respects others. Your children will see this and will love and respect you for it

No games. Your W has been doing that. If you model a healthy, respectful, respectable life for your children, it's a win for everyone, most of all yourself.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> In other words, you just live the life of a person who loves and respects himself and loves and respects others. Your children will see this and will love and respect you for it
> 
> No games. Your W has been doing that. If you model a healthy, respectful, respectable life for your children, it's a win for everyone, most of all yourself.


That's what everyone should aspire to, BS or not.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Voltaire said:


> I don't want to go into the full history of the thing or too many family details (which will probably mean that this answer does not fully satisfy you, but that's the way it is) but....
> 
> Initially she left the marital bed after a big argument and was sleeping on the floor downstairs for a time. We decided that we had to put in place longer term arrangements. As I have said repeatedly above, the choice was between more luxury but in isolation (her choice) or less luxury and being closer to the kids (my choice). I chose the kids and they know it.
> 
> To those who will no doubt say that i should have "punished" my wife by making her continue to sleep on the floor I would say two things: 1. at that stage I knew little or nothing of her A's so there was nothing to "punish" her for 2. The kids would have take her side if I had treated her that harshly and in any case I do not think that that it would have been a good lesson for them to see one parent being deliberately cruel and uncaring towards the other one, no matter what she had done.


You can give all the excuses you want, she goes out to sleep with another man, then comes to sleep in your bed. How can you stand for that..I mean really?

You are divorcing, that is the harsh reality, Your kids know. You can be cordial around each other no problem but she doesn't get to sleep in the bed, simple. Doesn't it chill you to the bone to think OM's seed could be on your sheets? I mean really?


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Voltaire,

I read the other thread and part your post in this thread.

You are very much on the wrong road.

You doormatted and rugswept your way throug these threads. By starting at the end of the situation, like it's already over, you successfully avoided the usual posts that could have helped correct your doormat behaviour, your rugsweeping, and the personal traits that made this all possible.

You lie on your back complaining, and you avoid criticism.

The posters are lured into that soft situation. 

But what you need is some real good critique about your behaviour. 
Unless you get that, unless you repair that, you will continue these kind of situations in your life. You could hardly say it's the fault of the next woman you will go through the same stuff with.

You need to be broken, and built up again.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

See_Listen_Love said:


> Voltaire,
> 
> I read the other thread and part your post in this thread.
> 
> ...


Hey, SLL. Thanks for your feedback - all suggestions always appreciated.

It would be helpful if you could be a bit more specific about the rugsweeping and mistakes that you are talking about and what poor advice you think that other posters have given. 

Thanks


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Hey, SLL. Thanks for your feedback - all suggestions always appreciated.
> 
> It would be helpful if you could be a bit more specific about the rugsweeping and mistakes that you are talking about and what poor advice you think that other posters have given.
> 
> Thanks


Like I said, I don't think they gave poor advice, I am always urging the OP to follow the advice given.

But you started with giving them the wrong impression. So they followed your lead. like it was an already accomplished situation.

But when I see your posts you are talking like the usual 'doormat' 'Beta' poster. And Still Do.

And that is what is different from the other threads, there these guys sooner or later come to their senses and start seeing what is the case and start becoming aware of their own behaviour.

So that is the reason to make you aware of this problem. You need to look back at your track and look for doormat and rugsweeping elements. You should repair that in my honest opinion. Replace it with more functional behaviour. 

Like I said, you went on your back in surrender way to soon.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

See_Listen_Love said:


> Like I said, I don't think they gave poor advice, I am always urging the OP to follow the advice given.
> 
> But you started with giving them the wrong impression. So they followed your lead. like it was an already accomplished situation.
> 
> ...


Thanks SSL. It would have been helpful if you had given me some specific advice rather than more general criticism. 

Was it a done deal? Well, by the time I found TAM my wife had checked out of the marriage months (if not years before), had initiated D and told her lawyers to do this as fast as possible, rejected all calls for MC and R, and had jumped into a relationship with OM - seeing absolutely nothing wrong with doing so because as far as she was concerned the M was over. Those are the objective facts. Several posters had told me that it was over and I should detach and walk away. Do you disagree with them?

As for what you call the beta behaviour, i would say two things.

First, if you have read my thread you will know that I am being extremely careful to avoid doing anything that could be misrepresented or twisted by STBXW's lawyers as being aggressive, overbearing, etc. There is a very good reason for this that i have hinted at pretty strongly but am not prepared to say in black and white here. If they manage to portray me as any of those things (very easy for a lawyer to blacken a man's name in our sexist courts) then (i) her own bad behaviour will seem much less unforgivable; (ii) my main objective will be much, much harder to achieve. 

If you think that that's an excuse, then fine. I call it being strategic and going for what is really important to you. And there is something even more important that my STBXW and the M. 

Second, there is a difference between being an alpha/leader and being a bully. Take, for example, my wife going out for the day to be with OM. I have told her that it is unacceptable, bad for the kids, etc. Still she persists. I made myself unavailable to look after the children. She hired a babysitter so she could go. So how else am I supposed to prevent this? Physically prevent her from going? Change the locks while she is out? Some suggestions would be helpful rather than "you're just being so beta" comments. Likewise sleeping arrangements. I have already said that I prefer to sleep closer to the kids than in the isolation of he master bedroom. But suppose I wanted to move back in there (which I don't) and she was unwilling to move out (which she is)? Should I just chuck all her stuff on the street? Get into the bed first and say "I'm sleeping here, you can get in beside me or go elsewhere" Again, concrete suggestions would be helpful. I do hear what you say, but at the end of the day you can only lead and influence people who want to be led and influenced. Otherwise it's just coercion. And, of course, the flip side of alpha/leadership coin is self-restraint and respect for the views of others. Now I'm not saying that I'm behaving in an alpha way, but it strikes me that no true alpha would just force his will in this situation. Correct me if I'm wrong. 

BTW, I am 6 feet and well built. STBXW is very petite. She has already pulled the "I feel so intimidated" [email protected] and her lawyers have done their best to make this an issue with the courts.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Where did the babysitter take your children? Do you have a working relationship with her. Do you fear the babysitter will witness against you in custody hearings?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Where did the babysitter take your children? Do you have a working relationship with her. Do you fear the babysitter will witness against you in custody hearings?


She stayed at home with them. Don't know the babysitter - was organised via a friend of my STBXW's at last minute. No concerns about her testimony but I think you understand where I am coming from.


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## sarcasmo (Feb 1, 2013)

Voltaire said:


> You'll have to translate that for me, but I think I get the drift. Didn't they tell you that it's the quiet, respectable ones you have to look out for?


Think Richard Gere in "Unfaithful". Months ago I mentioned this movie as a joke and now my WS is fearful of my hidden rage. Dumb move by me planting that seed. One dumb move in a series of dumb moves.

Good luck, Voltaire. I see a lot of similarities in your story to mine. Clearly I have handled mine poorly, but I'm inspired by your demeanor throughout this ordeal.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

sarcasmo said:


> Good luck, Voltaire. I see a lot of similarities in your story to mine. Clearly I have handled mine poorly, but I'm inspired by your demeanor throughout this ordeal.


Thanks - nice to hear. I think a lot of other posters on here think I've been a complete doormat and need to man up!


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Hey Voltaire---you are right to protect yourself in the clinches----cuz the only thing comparable to a cheater is a lawyer---basically half or more, of what, comes out of their mouths are stretches of the truth, or outright lies---as all they have to do to win their cases is to show reasonable doubt---obviously somewhat different in D---but yes a bulldog of an atty----can paint you any color he/she wants---and then you are stuck defending what he/she said---whether its true or not---so yes be very careful how you tread

But you may have a possible argument agst your wife---if she is bringing in just anyone to care for your kids----whoever is taking care of your kids---when your wife runs to her other man---she/he better have impeccable credentials, and if your wife hires her/him---your wife darn well have better checked her/him out---and if the sitter doesn't check out, or is not known by the both of you---you have a case agst your wife, as an irresponsible mother, who is not taking proper care of her kids----you just don't have an unknown person take care of your kids-----what I have just thrown at you---is what an atty would say, to discredit your wife---who knows what truth there is in any of this-----it just goes with what happens when you get into a courtroom


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

jnj express said:


> Hey Voltaire---you are right to protect yourself in the clinches----cuz the only thing comparable to a cheater is a lawyer---basically half or more, of what, comes out of their mouths are stretches of the truth, or outright lies---as all they have to do to win their cases is to show reasonable doubt---obviously somewhat different in D---but yes a bulldog of an atty----can paint you any color he/she wants---and then you are stuck defending what he/she said---whether its true or not---so yes be very careful how you tread
> 
> But you may have a possible argument agst your wife---if she is bringing in just anyone to care for your kids----whoever is taking care of your kids---when your wife runs to her other man---she/he better have impeccable credentials, and if your wife hires her/him---your wife darn well have better checked her/him out---and if the sitter doesn't check out, or is not known by the both of you---you have a case agst your wife, as an irresponsible mother, who is not taking proper care of her kids----you just don't have an unknown person take care of your kids-----what I have just thrown at you---is what an atty would say, to discredit your wife---who knows what truth there is in any of this-----it just goes with what happens when you get into a courtroom


Thanks. Got to play that game because they will. All I am trying to do is to avoid giving them any ammunition. The only way for her lawyers to defend her appalling behaviour is to attack me and to claim that I drove her to it, that she did it all in order to escape an abusive husband and a terrible marriage. I'm not going to hand them the bullets if I can help it.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Thanks SSL. It would have been helpful if you had given me some specific advice rather than more general criticism.
> 
> Was it a done deal? Well, by the time I found TAM my wife had checked out of the marriage months (if not years before), had initiated D and told her lawyers to do this as fast as possible, rejected all calls for MC and R, and had jumped into a relationship with OM - seeing absolutely nothing wrong with doing so because as far as she was concerned the M was over. Those are the objective facts. Several posters had told me that it was over and I should detach and walk away. Do you disagree with them?
> 
> ...


Sorry, but I am too late at this to do it all over, you just should read some of the other Beta-stories to see what I mean.

But for example on this: 


> Take, for example, my wife going out for the day to be with OM. I have told her that it is unacceptable, bad for the kids, etc. Still she persists. I made myself unavailable to look after the children. She hired a babysitter so she could go. So how else am I supposed to prevent this? Physically prevent her from going? Change the locks while she is out?


Yes, there are threads where BH, when W went to OM, the trunks where set outside, or even delivered on the porch of OM. You the contrary leave the bedroom.

But it's really not the facts that are alarming, but the way you speak about it. See and compare yourself with others. I can't argue you into another vision, only you yourself can do that. If you want to see it.

I said this because if this continues, I call this Beta behavior, to clarify what we talk about, then it will I think also spoil your next relation. Or possible start your next relation in the same way, you would attract the wrong dynamics in the wrong relations.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

> You talk of respect. She'll certainly respect me when her argument falls apart because she has been stupid and thought only of her short term pleasure-seeking whilst I have been more disciplined and strategic. And she knows full well that that is what I am like - clever, strategic, playing my cards close to my chest. And THAT makes her fear me (she told me this just this morning) without having to scream and shout and do stupid things that could be used against me and could undermine my case and my goals.


I say this with no meanness or sarcasm involved, this type of arrogance has led men to getting wiped out. She knows you and knew how to stroke your ego.



> Thanks. Got to play that game because they will. All I am trying to do is to avoid giving them any ammunition. The only way for her lawyers to defend her appalling behaviour is to attack me and to claim that I drove her to it, that she did it all in order to escape an abusive husband and a terrible marriage. I'm not going to hand them the bullets if I can help it.


No, that isn't the only thing they can pull. Dude, divorce battles are ugly. Yours sounds like it might be awful.
Be careful trying to fight a battle on multiple fronts.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I say this with no meanness or sarcasm involved, this type of arrogance has led men to getting wiped out. She knows you and knew how to stroke your ego.
> 
> No, that isn't the only thing they can pull. Dude, divorce battles are ugly. Yours sounds like it might be awful.
> Be careful trying to fight a battle on multiple fronts.


You're 100% right about all of that. And that is why I am focusing on the legal battle and not trying to combine that with pulling some "alpha male" stunts on the emotional side. They would blow up in my face big time. That grand "I won't be messed with" gesture that was so satisfying at the time will be used to crucify you in court - especially if you are a man. A vindictive woman damaging your car or lashing out at you is seen as justifiably angry, whereas a man who did that would be seen as dangerous, unreasonable and violent.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

The opposite of love is apathy. Inasmuch as you can, show her "meh."


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

sandc said:


> The opposite of love is apathy. Inasmuch as you can, show her "meh."


Trying hard, brother, trying hard. But all too often the anger shows through. I'm getting better at it though.


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## Juicer (May 2, 2012)

I can understand the refusal to lash out. 
If my XW ever wanted, she could've had me spending a night in jail saying I threatened her. And a cop wouldn't take a second at me before putting me behind bars. 

But I do not think there is a problem with kicking her out. 
She refuses to be part of the marriage. Therefore, she is not entitled to the benefits of said marriage. 

As in:
She doesn't have a marital home. To accomplish this, you change the locks, and the garage code. Don't forget the garage code! 

And she still has things. So you grab them all, like her clothes, and put them on the lawn, and tell her "Your possessions are going to be safely here for 1 day. Then after that 1 day, I am going to put price tags on them, and sell off what I can. Then I am going to let the trash removal service take the rest."
Her clothes are considered marital property. While it may seem rude, and the court may look at that with a raised eyebrow, you technically did nothing wrong. 

Also dude, make sure your lawyer is a shark. Some just don't care. Others only care as long as your money holds out. 
But you never get more than what you pay for with lawyers. So don't go cheap. There are certain things in life you don't go cheap on. Paint is one of them. Medical service is another. Lawyers is a third. 

And if you are having trouble with anger, I have a couple suggestions:
If you or the kids have a Wii, play Wii boxing. Beating the over loving crap out of someone that looks similar to the OM in a video game is always therapeutic. But don't do that in real life, no, just a bad idea...

Or buy a punching bag. 

Or a gym membership. Some are very reasonable. If you ever want to strangle someone, just go to the gym, and max out your bench press. 


Just never let your anger overtake you. 
Tends to be very expensive and costly when that happens.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Juicer said:


> I can understand the refusal to lash out.
> If my XW ever wanted, she could've had me spending a night in jail saying I threatened her. And a cop wouldn't take a second at me before putting me behind bars.


Exactly



Juicer said:


> But I do not think there is a problem with kicking her out.
> She refuses to be part of the marriage. Therefore, she is not entitled to the benefits of said marriage.
> 
> As in:
> ...


It's a great thought (and I have certainly thought about it) but where I live my STBXW has an absolute legal right to live in the marital home. If I kicked her out or changed the locks I would be the bad guy. She could then get a court order banning *me* from the marital home. 



Juicer said:


> And if you are having trouble with anger, I have a couple suggestions:
> If you or the kids have a Wii, play Wii boxing. Beating the over loving crap out of someone that looks similar to the OM in a video game is always therapeutic. But don't do that in real life, no, just a bad idea...
> 
> Or buy a punching bag.
> ...


I run. And my standard weekend runs are now getting on for half-marathon distance!!




Juicer said:


> Just never let your anger overtake you.
> Tends to be very expensive and costly when that happens.


Amen to that. The same is true for anything that can be portrayed as overly aggressive. That is why I feel that some posters are a little bit too gung-ho in their advice and haven't really thought through the consequences.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

From my own experience I believe men make up excuses not to leave. When I left my future ex-wife, I packed some of my clothes, put my tool box and fishing tackle in my 10 year old pickup (which I still have) and hit the friggin road. Approximately 18 years later I retired at age 58 and followed a passion for teaching college as an adjunct professor. I just ain't that hard to do. Guys' egos just would let them say its over, and they lost the battle. 
Sorry folks, but I can't keep from shaking my head and laughing when I hear, "I'll lose the house", "I'll have to pay alimony", etc. Even if that's true, its still better than living in hell and certainly better than wondering and fearing if somebody else is servicing your old lady while you're working your butt off to keep her up.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> From my own experience I believe men make up excuses not to leave. When I left my future ex-wife, I packed some of my clothes, put my tool box and fishing tackle in my 10 year old pickup (which I still have) and hit the friggin road. Approximately 18 years later I retired at age 58 and followed a passion for teaching college as an adjunct professor. I just ain't that hard to do. Guys' egos just would let them say its over, and they lost the battle.
> Sorry folks, but I can't keep from shaking my head and laughing when I hear, "I'll lose the house", "I'll have to pay alimony", etc. Even if that's true, its still better than living in hell and certainly better than wondering and fearing if somebody else is servicing your old lady while you're working your butt off to keep her up.


I take your point, but surely this is a point about lifestyles in general and not specifically about divorce or separation. A lot of frustrated people stick in relationships, marriages, jobs, careers, friendships, social circles and entire lives because they are afraid to up and leave it all behind and start afresh.


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## sarcasmo (Feb 1, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> From my own experience I believe men make up excuses not to leave. When I left my future ex-wife, I packed some of my clothes, put my tool box and fishing tackle in my 10 year old pickup (which I still have) and hit the friggin road. Approximately 18 years later I retired at age 58 and followed a passion for teaching college as an adjunct professor. I just ain't that hard to do. Guys' egos just would let them say its over, and they lost the battle.
> Sorry folks, but I can't keep from shaking my head and laughing when I hear, "I'll lose the house", "I'll have to pay alimony", etc. Even if that's true, its still better than living in hell and certainly better than wondering and fearing if somebody else is servicing your old lady while you're working your butt off to keep her up.


Did you have kids? To me, that makes the situation more complicated. I haven't talked with a lawyer yet, but I would worry about losing custody if I move out. Or at the very least, having less leverage.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Here is one BS who does the right things, the contrast could be a learning source.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/71633-need-advice-she-might-cheating.html


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

DEF read the above thread. 

He just pulled off an EPIC win.

He has 100% court admissible proof AND he can probably sue the company he works for since his wife was sleeping with a VP!


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## sarcasmo (Feb 1, 2013)

weightlifter said:


> DEF read the above thread.
> 
> He just pulled off an EPIC win.
> 
> He has 100% court admissible proof AND he can probably sue the company he works for since his wife was sleeping with a VP!


Reading it, but again, no kids. I don't care about finances. I care about custody. 
(sorry, not trying to take over Voltaire's thread!)


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

I very much hope that you do know what you are doing and are taking the proper course of action and not just rationalizing passiveness.

Frankly, it could be one from column A and one from column B.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

JCD said:


> I very much hope that you do know what you are doing and are taking the proper course of action and not just rationalizing passiveness..


Thanks for the concern, JCD, but I'm very confident of my motives. 

I'm making a lot of moves on the legal side (that I don;t want to write about here) and I am slowly moving the chess pieces where I want them. A WAS deep in the fog doesn't make great decisions!

Also, passivity normally comes from fear of upsetting or alienating the WS. I don't care much now. In some ways it's more satisfying to watch her little fantasy world blow up all on its own.


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## ravioli (Jan 23, 2013)

Does your wife work? Who's paying most of the bills? Are you eating together/socializing? Does she make you meals and do your laundry? Describe the day to day occurences.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

ravioli said:


> Does your wife work? Who's paying most of the bills? Are you eating together/socializing? Does she make you meals and do your laundry? Describe the day to day occurences.


She works, I pay more of the bills but have her on the tightest possible leash financially (can't cut her off entirely - would be illegal where I live). We live as a single household (cooking/laundry done together, sometimes her sometimes me). Getting along as best we can under a single roof - kids hate any tension so I try to avoid any for their sake. All the arguments are via lawyers or in writing, not generally in the house. 

Not quite sure where you are going with this.


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## ravioli (Jan 23, 2013)

Voltaire said:


> She works, I pay more of the bills but have her on the tightest possible leash financially (can't cut her off entirely - would be illegal where I live). We live as a single household (cooking/laundry done together, sometimes her sometimes me). Getting along as best we can under a single roof - kids hate any tension so I try to avoid any for their sake. All the arguments are via lawyers or in writing, not generally in the house.
> 
> Not quite sure where you are going with this.


I was just asking to see if there was a way you can squeeze her out of the house as in making it uncomfortable for her to live there without doing anything that would hurt you legally. Since she is messing with another man and still have the audacity to do it in your face and still claim the master bedroom I figured you wanted her out of the house. Or you don't mind her staying there?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

ravioli said:


> I was just asking to see if there was a way you can squeeze her out of the house as in making it uncomfortable for her to live there without doing anything that would hurt you legally. Since she is messing with another man and still have the audacity to do it in your face and still claim the master bedroom I figured you wanted her out of the house. Or you don't mind her staying there?


Not much I can do. Any attempt to make her uncomfortable could be deemed harassment in my jurisdiction and would undermine my legal position. It's all about the legal side now, and her obviously awful behaviour makes it hard for her to justify her position. Can't say much more than that, apart from......give 'em enough rope....


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

sarcasmo said:


> Reading it, but again, no kids. I don't care about finances. I care about custody.
> (sorry, not trying to take over Voltaire's thread!)


It's an awesome thread, but as sarcasmo says no kids. Also, the poster was lucky enough to have a huge amount of leverage with OM via the company. 

But the overwhelming advice throughout that thread was to do nothing until the poster had absolutely secured his legal position. That is exactly what I am doing.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Divorcing, Wife moved on to OM already*



BobSimmons said:


> You can give all the excuses you want, she goes out to sleep with another man, then comes to sleep in your bed. How can you stand for that..I mean really?
> 
> You are divorcing, that is the harsh reality, Your kids know. You can be cordial around each other no problem but she doesn't get to sleep in the bed, simple. Doesn't it chill you to the bone to think OM's seed could be on your sheets? I mean really?


Can you sell the big bed and get two singles. At least that would be fair.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

bfree said:


> Can you sell the big bed and get two singles. At least that would be fair.


I guess we could do...but I want the bed when we're done, and I would prefer to sleep close to my kids than close to my STBXW


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## RAN (Oct 14, 2012)

Any updates ?


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## Singleton (May 30, 2013)

jd08 said:


> Guys stop with the lawyer bashing. I do domestic law (although in the US) and I can see the logic in his lawyer's advice. At least where I am there is a legal procedure that can be filed to remove the WS from the marital residence. I don't know if that's available where OP is. Outside of that, there is little LEGAL value in exposing an affair to family and friends. This is different from whatever personal gain comes from the exposure. Where I practice infidelity usually has little weight in a custody determination. It does matter in spousal support cases. However, if he already has solid evidence of such an affair then again there is little value in continuing to dredge up more.
> 
> The job of an attorney is to resolve a case in the best way possible for their client. In family law especially we have to stay above the emotional meat grinder and come to an objective, reasoned plan which will push the separation and divorce through without multiplying the emotions more than what they already are. I think his lawyer has done a good job keeping him out of the muck and will assume she has a plan to use what she has and calmly negotiate or litigate a fair outcome for her client.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I disagree! I do not know a single lawyer who will say that the exposure is a good thing, yet in some cases it does produce results. 

During my divorce process I told my first lawyer that I found that infidelity was involved in my wife leaving me and that I wanted that to be reflected in our financial agreement. She (the lawyer) sort of got angry with me. I am her client and she does not get angry with me! She was also intimidated that my wife's lawyer was the "best lawyer" in a big city in US. I fired her and hired another lawyer who was ready to listen to what I wanted.

Prior to this but soon after finding about infidelity I exposed mu wife's affair. I wanted R and I read that exposure is the best if you want the affair to end. I went by the book and exposed it to everyone. Nobody liked that: my lawyer, my therapist etc. I have my own successful business. If I had listened to all who told me not to start it I would have never had it. I went against advice of most often well meaning people and never regretted it.

Although I wanted R my wife did not and we had mediation. With my second, aggressive lawyer I got everything I wanted. My exposure although criticized by all lawyers was one of the reason I got everything I wanted. My ex and her lawyer knew that. Do you really think that in trial she will get any sympathy? She did not want to find out.

Again, I would never ask a lawyer about exposure advice. Second, find a lawyer who is aggressive and who will listen to you. You are paying a lot of money to lawyers. They work for you! I told my first lawyer that she works for me. She said: I don't. I work for myself. I said: Goodbye! 

Just like when you chose a spouse: Chose your lawyer very carefully!! There are good lawyers and there are bad lawyers.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

RAN said:


> Any updates ?


Thanks for the prompt....I've been meaning to come and write an update for some time.

In summary, nothing has changed and lots of things have changed, if that makes any sense at all.

What hasn't changed? The situation with my WAW and POSOM is ongoing. She is spending more and more time with him - to the detriment of the family. I think that everyone (but her) knows that it can't possibly last, but she is still completely in the fog. Still thinks that she can have it all. Meanwhile POSOM is showing true signs of being a POS - again, plain for everyone but her to see. 

The divorce is still proceeding (driven by her - but lets just say I am not exactly putting obstacles in the way).

I expect more developments in the next few weeks and will update, but can't talk about them now s they are all about teh legal process. 

So that's what hasn't really changed. What has changed a lot is me. I have gone through this baptism of fire and come out the other side. I have managed to tap into my inner strength and inner wisdom. I feel far stronger and more centered than I ever did, even before DDay. Life is still full of challenges, and I don;t quite know how I'm going to meet them - but I know that I will. All the mental energy that I used to expend on worrying is gradually being redirected to thinking about the future. I never felt before that I was a worthwhile or worthy person - I was completely insecure. Now I have much more regard for myself. 

I am not out of the woods yet (do we ever really get fully out of these woods, I wonder) but I am beginning to emerge from this process a more secure, more confident and generally better individual than the person I started it as. And my STBXW now has a legacy of lying, cheating and dishonesty to overcome and she is finding it very very difficult.


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

So have you started dating anyone? Living for yourself a little?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Volt

That is the key. To focus on you. To change the things that you can change.

To control only what can be controlled. Yourself and your actions.

With or without her you will be fine. 

And no matter what you will be great again. In your own time.

You will see.

HM64


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

LostViking said:


> So have you started dating anyone? Living for yourself a little?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have started living for myself a bit, but my main focus remains the kids. They already have one parent who has run straight into the arms of another partner and I don't want to make that two as I think that they would feel completely abandoned.

I also do not think it is right to enter into a relationship until I am fully divorced. 

That said, I have a nice little friendship developing with a young lady. I don't see her too often, but when we do see each other we seem to be drawn together and enjoy spending time together. I have no idea how she feels about me, but we'll see if that goes anywhere. Nothing's going to happen overnight, but something that builds slowly is good for me right now.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> Volt
> 
> That is the key. To focus on you. To change the things that you can change.
> 
> ...


Thanks HM

I have to say that for me that has been the greatest lesson of all of this - to accept that you cannot control everything. Before all of this happened I was so busy trying to control everything and/or worrying about the things I couldn't control (and thinking of myself as a perpetual victim of circumstances).

Thanks for your support through all of this


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Hi everyone

Haven't been here for a while, partly because the divorce process has been taking up so much time/energy and partly because I felt that I was getting a little too reliant on coming here every day and feeding off the sympathy and goodwill of others - it gets kind of seductive (almost addictive) after a while but I didn't think that it was helping me to move on. I did feel bad, though, just going dark on all the people who have helped me.

D still going through, complications as regards kids, turning into very very expensive process..........but I am very positive about the future, feeling good about myself, etc.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Good for you Volt.

Keep your chin up.


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