# Confused and frustrated



## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

Hi everyone,

I am in a pickle and could use all the help I can get. I really don't know what to do. I'll try to be as brief as possible but please do not hesitate to ask any questions, either here or by p.m. Thanks in advance for your time and energy. The basic premise is that we are contemplating a separation/divorce. We recently bought a house together and we have no kids. I think I got married either too soon or to the wrong woman or we have grown apart; due to basic incompatibilities, as i'll try to describe below. 

A little about us before I get into how we met, how we have managed and where are now. I'm a young man in my early 20's and she is roughly 6 years older then me. I come from a very secure, bourgeois type background and she comes from an opposite upbringing; broken & abused. Like my mother, I am a very practical and pragmatic person, but I am also very "free spirited", abstract and I love to go out at night. I am a very analytical person and I see the silver lining in nearly everything. Typical gemini. She is a quite different. She's somewhat of a typical cancer. She loves to chat, read, write, paint and generally speaking, prefers to nest at home. Her views on the world are concrete and definitive. She's religious and I mostly spiritual. She has few friends, I have many. So we have very little in common except for our comedic tastes, which is very similar and has really been the glue to our relationship. Silly to base a relationship on just that? Crazy? Maybe! But when we share those moments of laughter together we really feel intimate and we both feel that this relationship was "meant to be" and that is worth the investment. I love her. 

We met 5 years ago, dated for 3 years and then got married. During the time we dated we had sex quite frequently, randomly and most importantly, with great passion. Then 3 years later, she basically said no more unless you want to marry me. I was given an ultimatum, basically. I was okay with it seeing she is/was religious and was already breaching the sex before marriage dealio. It took me 3 months to decide (I thought it through as well as I could) and I proposed. I moved into her place about the same time we got married. 

Our marriage and honeymoon was stricken with bad luck from the very beginning (you could call it acts of god) and it seemed to set the tone for the marriage, which was very unfortunate...but we tried to maintain it non-the-less. The night we got married is a good example of what I am going through now. It was as if I wanted her more then she wanted me, which was different then when we dated. Never lived with a woman before so I do admit to making many mistakes and learning a lot.

I've been lazy, selfish and straight-up dumb for a long time. I have snapped back to reality and I am ready to do my best to improve the relationship or have the courage to walk away from it. It has taken me nearly 5 years to come to the hard realization that maybe she is not attracted to me like she was anymore, maybe now that she really "knows me". Her sex drive is practically non-existent. I put this aside when we dated and hoped she would open up after we got married, seeing she is/was religious...but she did not. 

I'm a fit guy, I don't smoke cigarettes and I eat healthy for the most part. I tried for a long time to make her "attracted" by improving my behavior around her, doing more at home (cooking/cleaning), etc...but at the end of the day, it didn't change a single thing and the more I try to change me, the less I am me! At first I wasn't every romantic with her and I quickly learned how important it was for her. So still to this day I try to do random acts of kindness for her whenever possible, like write her love notes, get her gifts, chocolate, surprise her with flowers. She is very busy though and quite often I come off as pushy, although really my marriage is my highest priority in my life right now. I have a business, work full time, have several hobbies - all that jazz. I've since learned to back off, but she is still complacent, still busy (with mostly volunteer stuff I might add) and although I know she cares I can tell I am not a top priority for her. I compliment her on her looks all the time and I think she is really pretty. I notice when she does something with her hair, gets a new perfume, new clothing, etc.. I'm a pretty aware and attentive person so I notice the little things easily most times. She says I am not into her, but I am. It's just that our hobbies are separate and we are very different, so how can I possibly get as absorbed as she does into them? It's like for instance I am a musician. She isn't. She can come sit with me and sing a long or try to play an instrument but just like when I try to to partake in her hobbies, it doesn't last longer then 20 mins, and it's a shame.

Although we don't have kids, we are very busy people and we also work different shifts to complicate things further. The worst part is not that we don't have much time to see each other. We do go on dates and lately we've been trying new things. What bothers me a lot, though, are these really small things that seem to add up to a lot. When she leaves the house she NEVER says goodbye, she RARELY gives a goodbye kiss, she NEVER says I love you and she rarely says thank you when I do nice things for her. She NEVER texts me or checks up on me with what I am up to. She shows 0 interest in anything I do. She calls me selfish because I spend most of the evening in my office or out with my friends (although I told her many times I am free for her if she needs me). It's hard for me to call her selfish in return (calling the kettle black), which she is too. She never waits for me to eat or sleep together and while that's not a big deal, it's still disrespectful. I've talked to her about it and just as she has talked to me about things that upset her, we both seem to constantly default back to our default behaviors and it's almost like we need some sort of intervention or counselling to take things further. 

And that brings me to the last paragraph. My sex life is horrible. I ALWAYS have to initiate. I'm a pleaser. I love foreplay, I love to give full body massages, oral pleasure and I love to make sure she is satisfied before me if possible. I know I am good looking, I know my package is of reasonable proportion and I highly doubt my performance is the issue. It's just passionless sex. She's just not into it as much as me. Sure, at least I get it and don't get the i'm tired or I have cramps excuse like I hear many other guys get. But I'd almost rather get that excuse then have this chore-like sex. If our sex life is no good now, how will it be after we have kids, if we ever had any? It's extremely important to me. Hell, it's a NEED. I've told her on many occasions and she doesn't get it. She doesn't get that I am prepared to throw everything away. This sounds low, but I'd sooner end up with a dumb or simple lady with a high drive then a genius like my wife with no drive. I'm even willing to get a vasectomy if kids are really the issue (although we usually use protection). I've been in many relationships before her. I've been faithful in all of them. With my wife though, it's almost like I want to cheat on her at every opportunity possible (but no I have not). I am constantly bored with our relationship and whenever I try to spice it up I pretty much get **** on. It makes me SO sad how I can't flirt or meet other girls and now it's to the point that if I am walking down the street and walk past a girl I just can't look at her. I never really lived alone on my own and I regret not "exploring" more. Not depressed about my life, don't have self-esteem issues. I have reached the tipping point. I am tired of yearning for other women... and not just for sex. I want to feel attracted again. I see couples and how happy they are and it makes me very jealous. 

The only other thing that I would like to add is that after much communication with her, it's like talking to a mirror. The way I feel about all of this is really similar to how she says she feels. 

Thanks for reading my long post and I appreciate all feedback.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

First, don't worry about the sex. Unless you fix all the other problems sex won't happen.

She's filling her time elsewhere because it fills a need she has... one that you aren't filling. Different work shifts, hobbies, etc... means there's no shared bonding between you two. And quite frankly if you two can't get on the same shift and are willing to cut back on hobbies, you may as well just call it quits now.

If you can do these things, make compromises such as one night out with friends during the week, two nights out with her.

And stop doing all those extra things. Every time you do extra chores or buy her flowers, you send her a message that you are rewarding her behavior so why does she need to change?

I'd recommend the 180 and reading a bunch of books but if you two can't spend time together it's just a waste of time and energy.


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## Stevenj (Mar 26, 2014)

Your wife sounds like she is LD (low desire). Have you tried a marriage counselor (MC)? There a many reasons for LD that would need greater information here that have nothing to do with you == abuse, hormones, etc.


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

Chris Taylor said:


> First, don't worry about the sex. Unless you fix all the other problems sex won't happen.
> 
> She's filling her time elsewhere because it fills a need she has... one that you aren't filling. Different work shifts, hobbies, etc... means there's no shared bonding between you two. And quite frankly if you two can't get on the same shift and are willing to cut back on hobbies, you may as well just call it quits now.
> 
> ...


1) How do you just not worry about sex??! It's easy for an average or a low drive person to say that. When I don't ejaculate for too long, it becomes all I can think about until the pressure is released. It interferes with my daily focus and it is very draining. And I know I can't feed the wolf if I am to keep control (not look at other women, porn, etc...) Maybe a simple reason why my wife might feel objectified. She has very low drive and just can't keep up with me. 

2) Can't get a different shift unfortunately. I've already scrapped hobbies I don't have time for and what is left are not just hobbies, but my life.

3) I don't hang out with my friends that much. I try to hang out with her every night but she rarely shows initiative to hang with me. I think the real issue is that when we hang out it's more like dead air. We've taken each other for granted and "think" we know each other. 

4) Yes you're right. I stopped that a while ago. 


. My question is this. How do two very busy people keep a marriage alive? Surely many have succeeded!


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

Stevenj said:


> Your wife sounds like she is LD (low desire). Have you tried a marriage counselor (MC)? There a many reasons for LD that would need greater information here that have nothing to do with you == abuse, hormones, etc.


Both of us are really busy until the end of this weekend. We've talked about it and will most likely see an MC in the next couple weeks.

Precisely. She has trust issues that stem from her relationship with her mother. She refuses to talk about it. Frankly if I knew this before I married her I would not be here right now.


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## MotoDude (Sep 15, 2010)

She remind me of my Ex wife, she would not call me or concern where I am or what I'm doing when I'm out and about. When I'm on my side gig doing job for 16 hrs, I dont get one phone call or text msg asking me if I'm doing ok. 

knowing what I know now and I'm in your shoes, I'll bail out of there fast.


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

That's not encouraging. Lol.

I ordered a book today called The Married Man Sex Primer. First class shipping and I am expecting to get it tomorrow. 

I want to try some more before giving up. 

I don't want to be one of those miserable bitter lonely 50+ year olds constantly peeping out girls. That's for sure.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

She is getting it elsewhere.


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

I highly doubt it. It's a "sin" in her books.


You know though, if it were true, I would be somewhat happy and relieved to find out (and not because I have done everything wrong or would like to seek "justice" by doing the same). I'm a very free spirited person, not clingy at all and will never be. I trust people very easily. Perhaps that is the problem and she doesn't feel "secure". Perhaps she feels like because I am not very possessive of her I do not "love" her...but this is not true at all.


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## MotoDude (Sep 15, 2010)

If she's not willing to fix it, don't waste your time like I did for 19 years.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

pragmaster said:


> I highly doubt it.
> 
> 
> I'm not going to stalk her either.


At the very least you should rule that out.
Have you checked phone records?
Do you each have access to each others emails? You should.


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

No we keep our phones and emails separate, as I think it should be. 


I refuse to snoop. Not because I think I would find something, but it defeats the definition of trust. If it gets to the point where I cannot control myself and am compelled to pick up her phone and go through it, then trust is lost anyways and there is no point.

If she's getting it elsewhere, he must not be doing a good job. She still comes home stressed out all the time. Lol. You can tell when someone just had a massage, or when they are very relaxed. 

Furthermore, she's not evasive and I can tell pretty well when someone is hiding something, whether a text or something internal. She hesitates/flinches not. 

Could ask. Good strategy maybe. Or suicide. Lol.


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## sparkyjim (Sep 22, 2012)

pragmaster said:


> I don't want to be one of those miserable bitter lonely 50+ year olds constantly peeping out girls. That's for sure.


Nooo, you should try it , it's fun...


Just kidding, but it's not like that. Someone else here said don't waste too much time on this relationship like he did on his. I would second that.

Look, I think it was a mistake to marry a woman 6 years older than you. It is my opinion that women - age for age - are more emotionally mature than men. In other words to match up emotionally with a woman a man should marry someone younger than he is. This is not a science, or a bias, it is just a feeling and an observation. The majority of relationships are this way, with the man being somewhat older.

You are a free spirit. Your wife may have been attracted to your youthfulness at one time but now it no longer meets her needs. You on the other hand desire someone who is a little less aloof, a little more emotionally available.

I think the book might help you a little. I also think the No More Mr. Nice Guy book should be required reading for any guy who says he is a pleaser.

I doubt that she is cheating on you, but I understand the precaution.

The bottom line is that you have to work on yourself first and then you can work on the marriage. I wish you luck and I hope you don't make this woman out to be your only chance at love...


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

Thank you so much everybody.

These are really tough times. She's been really busy with work and hobbies lately and whenever I have tried to approach her lately she just pushes me away. I feel as if she has made up her mind.

It seems like separation or divorce is unavoidable at this point. Pretty much everything I have said here is an exact reflection of how she feels too. We are at a stalemate but I seem to be the only one interested in fixing this.


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## lovelorn_wife (May 10, 2014)

She sounds a bit like me. It took my husband confronting me about the way I've been acting for me to realize I wasn't putting in as much effort as I should be (he was slacking too). He works third shift and I work first/second shift so it's hard but I make him breakfast when I get home from work (he does the same for me) and we are able to talk to each other, not for a long time but enough to see how he's doing. On my days off I'll go to bed earlier so that I can spend time with him when he gets home. Its not all sunshine and rainbows, we have other issue we are taking care of. But I do feel more connected to him. definitely not the way it was before but I have hope


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

I'm a standstill. I feel powerless. I go to talk to her about problems and she tells me I am being pushy, and that she is confused and needs time. What do you do in a situation like this? She doesn't even want to kiss me anymore. How much time do women need?


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## Noble1 (Oct 25, 2013)

Maybe the question you need to ask yourself is "if things don't change and I can't do any more on my own to change it...how long can I put up with this?"

Sorry to hear about your situation. Good luck.


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

one complaint you have is she never initiates sex. Well, a LOT of women, even those that love sex, NEVER initiate sex. Something about how they were brought up. So do not dwell on that one point.

Sounds like a little MC with a therapist that handles sex function would be smart. She DID have good sex once in her past...and something changed. Maybe it can be changed back. But you are going to need some outside help to do it.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You need to stop being needy. Relationship discussion is not helping.

Very little of your description explains why you want to be with her at all.


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

Well, I love her for starters. For two she's very intelligent, much more then the average. And for 3 we do make a good team when we're not at each others throats. I want to spend the rest of my life with this girl. Shouldn't that be enough?

Reading the 2011 primer. I see what you mean about being needy.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

pragmaster said:


> I'm a standstill. I feel powerless. I go to talk to her about problems and she tells me I am being pushy, and that she is confused and needs time. What do you do in a situation like this? She doesn't even want to kiss me anymore. How much time do women need?


Confused and needs time is usually code for cheating.


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## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

Regarding the sex issue, I'm working on my own problems in that regard, just so you have the context of the advice that follows.

But first, you need to find out if there is someone else, which means violating the "snooping" rule you've put on yourself. Know this, there are no secrets in a real marriage. Ignore that at your peril.

As far as sex, just quit. Quit asking. Quit initiating. Quit talking about it. You're on sex hiatus until further notice. No grabbing, no touching, no snuggling. She'll just think you're buttering her up for something she doesn't want to do. Quitting won't kill you.

Be quiet and live for yourself. Do want you want. Resume one of those hobbies you canceled. Do more for yourself. Think less. Talk even less that that, but answer questions honestly if asked. 

Got it? No initiation of anything. And see what that does. In the meantime, work on being a better you, for you, not her. And stay vigilant.

In short, be a man. 

Or you can whine, beg, plead, cajole, get angry, and stomp around like a toddler having a temper tantrum. Do that, however, and what you believe could be a foregone conclusion will be.

If you want to keep her, be prepared to lose her, and conduct yourself that way.


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

neuklas said:


> Regarding the sex issue, I'm working on my own problems in that regard, just so you have the context of the advice that follows.
> 
> But first, you need to find out if there is someone else, which means violating the "snooping" rule you've put on yourself. Know this, there are no secrets in a real marriage. Ignore that at your peril.
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot. That is very helpful.

Last week I started doing that and really not much has changed except that I avoid hugging, kissing and general touching like you said...but, why do I feel this sort of change will destroy the relationship instead of saving it?

Would you take off your ring during times like these? 


Is it worth mentioning that she never and has never wanted to have sex for herself?


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

What do you mean by sex for herself? Masturbation? Or do you mean she never initiates or perhaps that she gets no pleasure in sex.

There are various possible explanations for sexless marriage:

1) she is not attracted to you
2) she is cheating
3) she is asexual
4) she is gay
5) she is the victim of CSM
6) she masturbates and thinks of others 
7) she resents you for something you are unaware of

There are many sexless marriage threads on TAM. They go on and on. Sometimes there are breakthroughs. Others go on for years.

I would concentrate on becoming more attractive by hitting the gym and being happy through hobbies. Get your male friendships going. Do the 180 and if she doesn't come round, divorce.

Why remain married to someone who doesn't desire you?


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> What do you mean by sex for herself? Masturbation? Or do you mean she never initiates or perhaps that she gets no pleasure in sex.
> 
> There are various possible explanations for sexless marriage:
> 
> ...



For sure. I'm pretty fit. I do workout, spend a lot of time working on the garden/landscaping and I don't smoke cigarettes. 

My thoughts exactly.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

pragmaster said:


> Thanks a lot. That is very helpful.
> 
> Last week I started doing that and really not much has changed except that I avoid hugging, kissing and general touching like you said...but, why do I feel this sort of change will destroy the relationship instead of saving it?
> 
> ...


Take off your ring only if you intend to get a divorce. That ring is as much a symbol of your promises to her as much as the other way around.


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

Even though she's not wearing hers anymore?


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## Code-Welder (Dec 17, 2012)

"I don't want to be one of those miserable bitter lonely 50+ year olds constantly peeping out girls. That's for sure."

Based on your detailed explanation if you stay with your wife I expect you will end up per your quote. I just do not see that much glue to hold the two of you together. You are still young it seems and plenty of time to find a woman who is compatible to your life style and interests. The sex is not the main issue but at your age it just seems that way. It is time to have a serious talk that likely will lead to your understanding she is not what you will want to spend your life with, move on.


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## Janky (Nov 26, 2013)

pragmaster said:


> Even though she's not wearing hers anymore?


Jeez....My ex stopped wearing her ring because the guy she was seeing didnt like her wearing it.


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

This thread hurts my heart. I can feel for you because my situation is somewhat similar, but in other ways it is sooooo different. 

I feel for you. I think my H feels the same way you do in our relationship. I have past CSA and rape issues that my H didn't know existed. I couldn't tell him until we were very involved in T. I just couldn't find the words to explain it. You mentioned your wife has issues with her mother, any idea what kind of issues exactly. That might be worth exploring when she is ready. 


I have already said I have a past experience with rape and CSA, I do a lot of the things your wife does. It is out of fear not for dislike of the person she is married to. 

I would definitely suggest marriage T. It sounds like communication is an issue for you guys. she is not willing to talk about certain things, yall are distant from one another, and don;t make each other top priority. 

You have told us a lot of your wife's short comings. What would be her thoughts on your short comings. Not to say you are guilty for her feeling the way she does, but it does take to to argue and feel distant and hurt. 

Her upbringing could be a lot of the issue. I was brought up in church, my parents were very secretive about sex and even in simple affection. So I in turn am not very affectionate.

Do NOT take your ring off, even is she has, that tells her you are done, you are not willing to try. I am sorry she has taken hers off, she may not be willing to try anymore. But if your is still on then she may be hanging on to that last little bit of hope. I have always believed if there is even a thread of hope then it is worth continuing to try. Even if one of you is done and the other is not, because at some point in time the shoe may well be on the other foot. You may feel like giving up and she will be trying to wooo you. 

Definitely get marriage T. It will help you both. And in the event that divorce becomes a reality you will both need to fix your own issues before moving on to another relationship.

Best of luck. One more thing, quit buying your wife flowers and candy and such. That says you are desperate, you did something wrong, and that her love can be bought.


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

It's tough, because when I am at the store or something and I see something she would like, I buy it for her not to kiss ass or for brownie points, but because I know it's something she actually appreciate...and she usually does! Holding off on touching (kissing, hugging, etc) is nearly impossible for me (it's part of my culture), so I've just refraiden from making any direct sexual advances (like touching breats, etc..) and that seems to have helped a lot already. 

I'm done with buying gifts as a token of apology. That's for sure. No more of that. Excellent advice. No more P on the pedestal! 

Rings back on. Kind of a dumb question but hey I felt needed to ask at the time. Not like anyone noticed anyways, sigh. 

We continue to communicate and work on it. I have not given up on her and probably never will. Maybe she's testing me on how long I can go without sex for. It is possible. 

Part of the problem is how I communicate and my perception of how women communicate in general (which I am trying to change). Growing up, my mom was the leader of the household. My dad was the small talker who jabbered day after day incessently about nothing and my mom was the practical, quiet, direct speaker. Suffice it to say that I am like her and don't often talk for the sake of talking.

I have finally learned that most women (including my wife) are not like this and quite often in fact, NEED to talk to understand their emotions. This recent breakthrough in understanding communication has already created immediate shifts in our relationship. 

Basically, I no longer offer solutions when she asks questions unless it's an obvious question. Instead, I try to let her find the solutions and just probe her until she finds out for herself. It has taken me a while for this light bulb to switch on, but I am trying.


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

Good for you. Your wife most likely doesn't want you to offer solutions for her. She wants to be heard and validated. Have you tried repeating back to her what she says. 

For Example:

Wife: I had a rough day at work so and so is very annoying

Hubby: You had a rough day at work because so and so is very annoying

she in turn will say YES, so and so does this and it annoys me. And you say So and so doing what ever and it annoys you. 

That just confirms to your wife that she is heard and understood. Not that you are trying to fix the situation but just you hear her. that is always a safe tactic to use. 

It is funny that you say your wife needs to talk more then you do. Women need to use 20,000 words a day we have a larger verbal section in our brain. Men only need to to verbalize 10,000 words a day. (or something like that, I'm saying women need to use double the language skill as men) That is why women seen to have the gift of gab, and talk twice as much as men do.

I doubt your wife is testing you to see how long you can go with out sex. You wife sounds like she doesn't think about sex as often as you do. I am the same way. I have told my H you can have sex with me but it will be like "duty sex" or you can wait and it will be "wanted needed sex". The choice is yours. I think we all agree a willing participant is the best. Sex is like a cigarette or like a cold beer that you can;t have. The more you know you can't have it the worse you want it. On the plus side the better it is when you you do finally get to have it.


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

Thank you so much. I am onto something. I'll keep you guys posted.


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## jdoe (Apr 22, 2014)

pragmaster said:


> Even though she's not wearing hers anymore?


The essential issue is what the ring means to HER. The ring never meant anything to me. I don't value symbolisms, and don't like having any jewelry on me, not even a wristwatch. But I always kept my ring on because I know it what it means to my wife. What does the ring mean to your wife?


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## jdoe (Apr 22, 2014)

pragmaster said:


> She basically said no more unless you want to marry me... maybe she is not attracted to me like she was anymore, maybe now that she really "knows me".


You cannot desire what you already have. She used sex (deliberately and/or subconsciously) to get you. Now you're doting on her. Why should she desire you?



> I can tell I am not a top priority for her.... She NEVER says goodbye, she RARELY gives a goodbye kiss, she NEVER says I love you and she rarely says thank you when I do nice things for her. She NEVER texts me or checks up on me with what I am up to. She shows 0 interest in anything I do.


Lovely. As best as you can tell... What does your wife like about you? What does she like about the marriage? Anything?

It sounds to me you two are mismatched. You got together because of sexual attraction and your wife's religious need to get married especially if she's having sex with a guy, but there isn't much else to base a marriage on. That happens. I think it's time to face the truth. A lot easier to do when there are no kids involved.


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## Qur (May 17, 2014)

pragmaster;8636778
Never lived with a woman before so I do admit to making many mistakes and learning a lot.
I've been lazy said:


> .


Your behavior early on in the marriage, as well as your inexperience (6 years younger), are most likely the culprit for her disinterest in you and the marriage. Not only are you much younger, but probably to her, behaved as such (which was a major turn off- not the age but the behavior associated with being younger). The "culture" of the marriage is really bad right now, and a new starting point has to emerge to challenge this current path to divorce. Time for some serious and revealing dialogue to occur via MC or between the two of you. Your sexual frustrations are the least of your problems right now.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

pragmaster said:


> It's tough, because when I am at the store or something and I see something she would like, I buy it for her not to kiss ass or for brownie points, but because I know it's something she actually appreciate...and she usually does! Holding off on touching (kissing, hugging, etc) is nearly impossible for me (it's part of my culture), so I've just refraiden from making any direct sexual advances (like touching breats, etc..) and that seems to have helped a lot already.
> 
> I'm done with buying gifts as a token of apology. That's for sure. No more of that. Excellent advice. No more P on the pedestal!
> 
> ...


More importantly, how did your wife view her parents' marriage? If she's emulating her mother's behavior towards her father, then you can see why she is doing this... probably subconsciously. Getting her to realize that would probably help.


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

Her parents have not been together since she was born. It is an excellent point you made there. Very touchy subject though.


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

If it is touchy then it needs to be dealt with in T. 

Just thinking out loud here, if they have been separate from the get go could your wife have abandonment issues. She is fearful of falling in love for fear she will loose you and be hurt herself. Just a question. That may not be it at all. Kinda sounds like it to me though. She is protecting herself from you, and not in a bad way. If she falls in love with you she will be hurt if things don;t work out. It hurts less to separate if you don't act like you love each other. It hurts more if you or one of you is madly in love. So the obvious answer is don't let yourself fall in love. It is a subconscious thing. It makes since if you think about it, but it really doesn't.


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

It makes perfect sense to me. Thanks for the insight.

How do I bring this up to talk about? She said she needed more time so I am respected her wishes. I stopped making advances and have started changing my attitude...but how do you know when the time is right? 2 weeks? One month? Two months? You would think she would come to me when she is ready but my general experience with her is that she won't, and I need to be active about this. 

It just seems like I am the only one working on this relationship. It's bull poop to be frank. I'm done being the passive nice guy. I am a good looking, fit, wealthy, young, white man who is not only willing to faithfully commit to a wonderful marriage but aspires to start a loving family. 

Everyday I read the primer and seriously apply myself to it. Day 3 and I can already see the difference in how women see me. Classic case of it's not me it's you!


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

Update:


I am at a loss here guys. I really dont know what to do. Please help.

Last week we got in a fight over basically nothing and she stormed off. She came back hours later, only to pack a couple things to go stay at a friends (she is a woman too). She has never done this before. 

She is being extremely uncompliant. She didnt tell me where she went, or for how long she would leave for, she just left. Shes not replying to my texts or calls and its not like I am being annoyingly persistent either. I am definitely giving her space but I dont think she realizes that fixing our marriage is the highest priority in my life right now. The nerve of her to come back for some fresh clothes during the week and head off again when she knew I would not be home. I dont even know where her friend actually lives. She wants me to get to know her but she REFUSES to talk about her family that she has run away from and where the real problems lie. I am totally in the dark. I am a very chill guy, but now I am starting to get very frustrated.

I am just about done reading the married mans sex life primer book. Man, I wish I knew this stuff before I got married. Now that I am following the male action plan, I am even starting to see changes in how women see me by changing my own behavior. I have made so many SIMPLE MISTAKES that I had no idea about in regards to really basic communication with women. I love this book. It has already started to change me a lot and I think for the better. I have been betaized for a long time. One thing that I have never been able to do...is flirt. I have always been horrible at it. I have never even flirted with my wife! Maybe improving my flirting skills (carefully of course), might create make me seem more romantic. I dont know. 

She said we would talk Sunday and so I am looking forward to that. 
It has been a week since she has not come home, no text or nothing. She is still working, paying bills and all of that, so I dont think its in her interest to lose the house and get a bad credit score. We dont have kids, so really there is not too much to lose.

My question is this. What would you do if your wife stormed off like that? What would you do in my position? Im done being the nice guy and I know for a fact there are plenty more fish in the sea. I cant love someone who doesnt want to love me, or even try.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I get a strong impression that she's cheating. It seems very obvious.

Anyway, what would I do? I'd do a hard 180. No calls, no talking Sunday. Start going out, assume that it's over and begin living your life. That will either bring her in, or confirm that she's already gone and you're wasting your time. 

And next time around, pick a little more carefully.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I get a strong impression that she's cheating. It seems very obvious.
> 
> Anyway, what would I do? I'd do a hard 180. No calls, no talking Sunday. Start going out, assume that it's over and begin living your life. That will either bring her in, or confirm that she's already gone and you're wasting your time.
> 
> And next time around, pick a little more carefully.


:iagree:
I told you to investigate but you didn't want to.
Now you have no idea what you are up against.
Sigh.


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

I'm sorry dear, but your wife is most likely involved in an affair - whether you want to believe it or not. Have divorce papers ready for her when you meet with her on Sunday.


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

Well maybe I am naive, An affair never crossed my mind, that is until you guys said it. 

If I were you I would leave her alone. Don't call or bother her until Sunday. Send her one text, "I am here if you want to talk, I will give you space" and then don't text, call or anything anymore. I would not jeopardize what ounce of future you may have left by behaving single. 

She may be cheating, she may not be. You will have to hear it from her. Don't assume anything. The assuming is what gets us in so much trouble.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

I dunno Mama, since she is playing single, the worst thing for him to do is to do nothing. I would not spend much time at home at all, go dark on her (180), create a MAP and follow it, which may include dating at this point, since she abandoned him. What does he have to lose?


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

Guys, I highly doubt that she is cheating but for the record, I would never even care anyways. Its just not me. Ive never been a clingy guy or like that and it boggles my mind how other guys get so mad at even the thought of their wife cheating on them. 
If she wants to see multiple men, I truly dont care. Just dont bring a disease home and if you get preggo im out. Plain and simple. Maybe thats why this is probably not going to work out. Maybe she needs someone more emotionally available, and I need someone more detached. Either way; yeah. I did not think this through carefully.

-Yes I have given space and said that Big Mama.
-I have thought about having divorce papers ready to show her how serious I am. Great idea to have for sunday!

The problem is though, because we both dont want to jeopardize our finances, we might end up living together as roommates until the mortgage renewal is up..for 3 years. Would you guys say screw it and just move out and divorce now, even though you would lose money and an amazing house?

But either way, you guys still didnt really answer my question. I asked; What would YOU do? Forget about me for a second.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Ya man. If you dont feel enough love for her that you would care if she was banging other dudes than you got married too soon or she wasnt the one.

But I feel sorry for you cause you got tricked. Happens to a lot of us, men and female. Sex is great to begin with and after I do the true colors show and your stuck with a LD corpse.


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

I am a very avoident personality. I hate conflict and avoid it at all cost. So that is why I say don;t keep calling her and leave her alone. 

As fr the potential of living in the same house for 3 years ill things are paid off..... That is not completely unheard of. Draw up a contract, make an agreement, and go for it.

A long ago friend of mine, he and his wife had acquired some bills and they got along ok, but she was not faithful to him. He moved to the basement and set it up like an apartment and she lived in the upstairs. They took turns being at home on weekends. When it was his weekend he could bring home a woman, host poker games at the house, or just what ever. When it was her weekend she could bring home a man, have a Mary Kay party, have girlfriends over for coffee or what ever. They celebrated holidays together. Took vacations together, each paying for there half. They occasionally slept together as well.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

dfhsjhu said:


> I am in a pickle and could use all the help I can get. [ I m g]http://fashionold.com/hu5l.jpg[/ I m g ]


You can start by stopping your spamming the forum


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

Thanks guys.

Elegirl, what do you mean spamming the forum?


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

Update:

It's been 2 weeks now that she has been away from home. We've been exchanging letters but it still feels like we are repeating the same old things. She says she needs a protector and someone to support her. How do you show a woman that? I once told her I would never take a bullet for anyone and she took it personally. Now that I am at witts end I'd do anything for her and now that I was full of crap when I said that a long time ago. Suffice it to say I said some stupid things in the past and she just has never accepted my apologies. She just doesn't think I am sincere. She questions my integrity due to my natural comedic, aloof gemini-like attitude and this in turn makes me apparently unapproachable (to her anyways). The main thing though is that she doesn't trust me and I don't even think she remembers why. 

I am optimistic about marriage councelling which she said she would consider. At least from what others have told me about it, it is worth a try. 

She said she will think about it while away on her trip. That's in 3 weeks though. And then the trip will last one week. So here I am, waiting another 4 weeks for an answer. That means that after 4 weeks from now, she will have been away from home for over a month. 

You know, the MAP is really amazing. It really works. I noticed it already with how women around me in my day-to-day life act and have even gotten a few numbers (don't worry I am a good boy). I know many married men would never consider even reading the primer, or consider changing their own behaviors.... so I'd like to think that, even if this does not work out with this particular girl, I have many options out there. 

Still, I am practically depressed over this girl. The more I probe the more I push her away. So I need to give her time, it seems. I love her.

I don't know her friends address so I can't just go over there and take her home. 

So guys, what would you do if your wife just up and left like that and didn't want to give you a clear answer as to where we stand? Would you assume she doesn't have the courage to say she wants to end it, and just end it for her? Or would you wait until the end of time like my nagging heart insists?


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

How did you get the numbers? Shouldn't you refuse them?


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## Happyfamily (Apr 15, 2014)

I'm a woman about your age. First of all the blackmailing of sex for marriage is an enormous red flag. 

The symptoms of not saying goodbye when you leave, not saying she loves you, etc. are signs of zero respect. You mentioned some things you did in a general way, but nothing really specific. So it is a little hard to sort out, but regardless what she's doing now - even if it isn't an affair, it might just as well be. The abandonment and treachery is beyond the pale. Unless the things you did were unconscionable.

I'm big on verbs, not imagery like protector and supporter. If she can't put verbs in there like "put your arms around me" and "come cheer at my dance recital" then it's just empty rhetoric.

I would never abandon my husband. You negotiate things as a couple, you don't take unilateral action. Even when there are problems. 

There isn't such a thing as Gemini and Cancer "personalities" so this just isn't helpful, and you need to stick with specific personality traits. From the ones you did list, it didn't sound like you were all that compatible. For example a religious person with a "spiritual" person, whatever that means. 

In parsing your words about what you did, I am going to take "comedic and aloof" to mean you just couldn't have a serious conversation with this person six years older and more mature than you. Joking is sometimes a way to evade and divert. 

The comment about not taking a bullet for anyone and being selfish before, whereas now saying you would do anything for her I take to mean that she asked you to do something that somehow put you at risk, and you said no. So sure, why should she trust you. Now that she's gone, you'll take a bullet for her, whatever that means in concrete terms instead of imagery. 

But you really need to be specific there. I haven't heard enough in specific straight-talk to know what you really did. 

Marriage counseling only works if both people are sincere in trying it, and it sounds like she's already out the door. But the marriage counselor is going to tell you the same thing: speak in precise terms about what you did or did not do that she needed from you, if that is what led to this.


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

I do not see your wife/gf as one foot already out the door, I see her as afraid and running. But she can be turned and run the other way, and marriage counseling will help you and her both way to see which way she is running and why. I really think that is the place to start. 

My H has said and done the same thing, I feel like he is not my protector. There is nothing he can do to help me feel otherwise, and I do not take his apologies as sincere ones either as much as he says there are. The ability to hear and believe comes from with in her and there is little you can do to change that. Her view can be changed but it takes a huge amount of work. My H and I have been in MC for 2 1/2 years and just last week my H told me again he was guilty of wrong doing and he was a huge contributor to the issue and I finally was able to "hear" him and believe him. 

Still yet each time he brings up wrong doing and the things he did wrong he triggers me. There are right and wrong ways to go about it in order not to make matters worse. 

I wish you the best of luck in coming weeks.


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

Thanks for the posts everyone. 

You're right. Absolute disrespect. Yet I point it out in a calm, adult manor and I am still the bad guy. 

What did I do wrong? After having read the map over and over, I see it now. I stopped flirting with her years ago. I don't know why. Suppose I thought the chase was over. But now I see the chase won't ever end. So I have started to change that attitude and opened up. I also made the mistake of hanging out with my friends too much and kind of putting her on the side. When we bought the house last year, I was overwhelmed with the responsibilities and her to. It's like we both created the divergence in the relationship but I am the only one owning up to my mistakes and trying to be accountable for my actions. Again, she has never said sorry. She has done no wrong in her mind. 

Simplest traits I can explain are these. The Gemini traits I was referring to is the dual mind (not bipolar lol) and mutable like properties. I am always open to coaching and improving my behavior. One side of my is sharp, outgoing, bold and witty while the other side is quiet, reserved, intellectual and submissive. She, a cancer, is the opposite. She likes to nest at home and rarely goes out. She is extremely sensitive where I am a hippy and am quite selective about what I take seriously in life. I used to think it was just because I am much younger then her that created this incompatibility between us. One thing is for sure. We are both hard workers. We make a great team when we aren't fighting. So despite all the differences, our traits have historically complemented each other. 

Like I've said, I've said many stupid things. But I apologized, and sincerely. There really is no excuse for her to bring up those past things. 

So again, what did I do? I got betaized or w/e you call it. Lol. Not enough Alpha and it is obvious now that I think about it, when she asked me things and what I should have said instead. 

We hung out the other day. It was nice and relaxed. And I showed her how I can be a good listener and communicator. We had fun. But then when she left she didn't even want to hug me. I hug my friends all the time. She's not even a friend really. Hell, we were never friends and that was my mistake. I shouldn't have gotten married so soon because all it did was create unnecessary pressure on us.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

what would i do?

i would file for divorce immediately. no way in hell would i ever wait around for a month so my wife can decide if our marriage is important enough to save. she isnt making that decision, by the way. 

the decision she is trying to make(for herself) is whether she can be away from you or not. but think about it... why would she want to be away from you? if you are not abusive, then she is probably cheating. otherwise, your just a friendly room mate and the idea of leaving would be an inconvenience. 

add another man to the picture and you are a nuisance.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

I agree. 

Your marriage is toast. File for divorce and go dark on her. Read WantWifeBack's thread. After his wife of a year dumped him he was so sad. He recovered, met other women. Suddenly after months his wife told him he was best in bed and that maybe they should try again. WWB thought it over and replied, no thank you.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

pragmaster said:


> Guys, I highly doubt that she is cheating but for the record, I would never even care anyways. Its just not me. Ive never been a clingy guy or like that and it boggles my mind how other guys get so mad at even the thought of their wife cheating on them.
> *If she wants to see multiple men, I truly dont care. Just dont bring a disease home and if you get preggo im out.* Plain and simple. Maybe thats why this is probably not going to work out. Maybe she needs someone more emotionally available, and I need someone more detached. Either way; yeah. I did not think this through carefully.
> 
> QUOTE]
> ...


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

I said that a while ago and have since taken that back. Of course I would be upset and sad. Hell I am upset and I am mad! 

I snooped and can assure you she is not cheating on me. Happy now folks? Lol. 

I already have the papers and all of that. I am the one taking action to either fix or end it. 

Another interesting thing to note is this... I had a great childhood and I was lucky to witness and feel unconditional love from my family. She, however, did not...The more time I have to myself lately the more I realize...I dont believe anymore that shes actually capable of giving unconditional love. I know this for a fact and see it clearly now, not by how she treats me, but by how she treats every single person she has ever met. Stranger or not. She treats everybody like **** and always expects to have her way or it is the highway. I have to plant my foot in the sand, sure. But with this girl, I realize now I need to use concrete when the time is right.

I have to fix this folks. I do not want her to leave me forever. She needs a break so I will give her time. I am just trying to figure out if maybe she wants me to rescue her somehow and how I could go about doing that and succeeding.


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