# Justice for one and all?



## munchie (May 17, 2011)

I wanted to share this "news" with everyone as a followup. May 10th was my D-Day ... I found out that my husband of 20 years had been having a 5 month EA/PA with one of his clients! At the time, I posted a lot to this board and got amazing support for which I will be eternally grateful. 

It's been a long three months ... but we're working on our marriage and have been making progress. My husband insists that he loves me and never intended to break up our family as a result of the affair. We immediately went to a MC ... but she felt that he had a lot of personal issues to work on, so he's been seeing another therapist 3 times a week. We've spent a gillion hours talking, crying, discussing everything and we're trying to get to a better place in our relationship.

The OW is a VP for one of his major clients. I didn't want to force him to resign from a $200,000 a year account, but I felt uncomfortable about his relationship with that company, knowing that he could "see" her, even if they had no conversation, at least once a week. While he worked with her personally on an infrequent basis, he was at her place of business often - due to meetings with other employees for on-going projects. He is remorseful over the A, is upset that he hurt me so much (duh!) and has agreed many times that he made many bad decisions and that the two of them should never have let that happen. While I definitely don't blame myself for the A ... I do take responsibility for some issues in our marriage that put him in a mindset to feel like the A was a viable option. But he's a grown man and made his own decisions -- very bad ones, at that.

Justice came last week when the OW's boss found out about her relationship my husband. A plethora of e-mails were found (sent through the company) where she professed her love for him and how much she enjoyed the times they've been spending together - sharing a pillow, walking through the park, kissing, etc. I've seen these e-mails too because that's how I found out about the A in the first place.

After her boss found evidence of the A, the Compliance Board at her firm informed her that she was in breech of company policy which prohibits personal relationships with vendors. She had signed a document in April stating that she understood the policy, although she was already involved in a four month affair with my husband at that point. 

Today ... the sh*t hit the fan ... she got FIRED!! I know I shouldn't be so giddy about this, but I feel like justice has been served. My husband is devastated for her and blames himself, but I keep insisting that she's equally culpable in this situation. He says he will always feel affection for her, that's she's a good person and that she doesn't deserve this outcome. But both of them had the ability to end the relationship ... they continued it, felt like they would never get caught and they knew it was against company policy. She's married with a 6 yr old child and I'm not sure if her husband knew anything about her EA/PA ... but he must know now, since she got fired for it. 

I know it probably makes me look bad that I'm happy for someone else's misfortune, but they were both playing with fire and things got burned. My husband resigned the account a few days ago -- so he's out a lot of money -- but hopefully he's learned MANY lessons from this disaster and I'm sure OW has too. It's just a shame that such destruction was the result -- to careers, reputations, and marriages.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

This may domino to your husband if they were a client.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

munchie said:


> Today ... the sh*t hit the fan ... she got FIRED!! I know I shouldn't be so giddy about this, but I feel like justice has been served. My husband is devastated for her and blames himself, but I keep insisting that she's equally culpable in this situation. He says he will always feel affection for her, that's she's a good person and that she doesn't deserve this outcome. But both of them had the ability to end the relationship ... they continued it, felt like they would never get caught and they knew it was against company policy. She's married with a 6 yr old child and I'm not sure if her husband knew anything about her EA/PA ... but he must know now, since she got fired for it.
> .


1) don't assume that the OW's husband knows just because she got fired, she could easily state she was laid off or for some other reason- I would let her husband know as he deserves to know

2) the above poster is right, your husband could now lose the account and even get in hot water with his own company if the client asks for another salesman or breaks the contract and explains why

3) your husband is still protecting the affair even if he isn't still engaging in it by feeling bad for the OW and defending her- I would not stand for this and even start to wonder if the affair was still ongoing


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## it-guy (Jan 6, 2011)

I would not feel bad about this one bit. As a matter of fact....I'm quite happy for you in this turn of events.


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## Numb-badger (May 18, 2011)

Her dismissal is a direct and natural consequence on an action she had taken. Nothing more, nothing less. The term 'Deserved' doesn't come into it. You H needs to understand that.
But you are within your rights to feel some satisfaction, she was also accountable for your pain and grief, putting her own desires before your rights and needs.

Take care


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## munchie (May 17, 2011)

@it-guy ... I definitely don't feel bad for her. She's on her second marriage (at 42 yrs old) and apparently it's not going well either or she wouldn't have carried on with my husband. So, she's made an art of screwing things up for herself. 

I just called my husband to see how he was doing. He was sitting in his car crying. He just had an appt with the therapist. He was too emotional to talk to me and said he would call a little later. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to behave now. He's so depressed and so upset about the everything ... the affair, people finding out, how the discovery of it made me feel, how she lost her job, how he lost the account, etc. I want to be loving and supportive -- but I also feel like both he and she are getting what they deserve. I'm trying to forgive him and rebuild trust ... but he's mired in this self-pity now. Any suggestions?


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## Numb-badger (May 18, 2011)

You can support him as much as you're wanting and able to do. There is nothing wrong in that, but he needs to understand that this is not about who deserves what, but is rather a sequence of related events that follow on directly from his affair. He must concentrate his efforts on you and his responsibilities as a husband.


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## it-guy (Jan 6, 2011)

You two just need to support and be good to one another. That is all you can do right now.


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

I'm really torn for you...
...I totally get feeling 'giddy' and happy to have gotten some sort of revenge. 
...I worry about the economic mis-fortune for hubby and the impact this could yet have, and have on you as a result too. I don't know his industry or role, but people get reputations (well-earned) for this sort of thing, get canned, and cannot find other jobs as a result; they essentially get blacklisted. 
...most importantly, I know you stated you're making progress in your relationship, but his words (and actions, ie crying in his car) feel too much like he's still way too emotionally involved to not somehow be otherwise involved. It just doesn't sound like he's detached himself from the OW in a healthy way for your marriage... he will ;'always feel affection for her'- wtf?? Really? if she aided in ruining his marriage, he will continue to feel affection? him defending her (as a 'good person', no less... married woman with child messing around with married man does not make 'good person' in my book, sorry) is not healthy for you.
...as he 'blames himself' for her getting fired, I hope that aligns to whatever story he's told you about how it started. And it just shouldn't be a concern of his, now.

Nevertheless, I think your reaction to this news is just realistic and honest, a reaction we'd all have -- not making you look bad.


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## munchie (May 17, 2011)

So just got off the phone with husband again. It appears that now the OW's company will let her resign (instead of being "fired"), they will give her a consulting project for some period of time and give her severance pay. Her attorney wants to meet with him and OW this afternoon so they can corroborate stories so it won't appear that she was let go because of her relationship with him. I told him that I don't understand why they need to get together to do this ... that a conference call should be sufficient. He feels like he owes it to her (and her company) to do make this situation as painless as possible. 

I keep asking him if he's detached himself from her emotionally. His answer (never resounding) is usually "I told you that I have." His big line is that "people like me ... people trust me ... I form close relationships with people ... and that's important to me." So he can't guarantee that he'll NEVER be in contact with her again because "his nature" is to be caring and have a genuine concern for people - and since she's someone he's cared about ... he 'might' want to see how she's doing from time to time. Sounds like a crock of sh*t, right? I should mention that he's in the public relations business -- so he's a master of "spin" when it comes to most situations. 

Now that he's heard the news about her not officially getting 'fired' - he's already in a slightly better mood. He makes me feel like I'm on a roller coaster ride at an amusement park that never stops. I want to be comforting to him, but I also feel like I'm the last one on the list in terms of people he's trying to please at this moment. He claims otherwise but feels that it would be terrible of him not to help out and end this situation once and for all. I'm just not buying it, though.


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

Hmmm... I repeat: _"...feels too much like he's still way too emotionally involved to not somehow be otherwise involved. It just doesn't sound like he's detached himself from the OW in a healthy way for your marriage"_

He can't or won't commit to NC and show you his letter/email to her (or have you call her together) saying so? Red alert/deal-breaker to me....


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

so now the real question- do you wish to continue with a man who won't agree to no contact, won't be completely remorseful of his affair and even break no contact?

I hope you find the strength to do what's needed


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

also- what do they need to "corroborate" anyways? Is the lawyer basically hoping your husband will lie on record to help his client?


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## it-guy (Jan 6, 2011)

I would insist on joinging him at this meeting.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

and tell the OW's husband- He deserves to know who he is married to and what she is doing to him


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## sexuallyfustrated (Mar 24, 2011)

it-guy said:


> I would insist on joinging him at this meeting.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: for all that you should be there front and center to look her in the face and hear.


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## Soccerfan73 (Jul 30, 2011)

Weird story about the need to get together with her over her firing. 

Honestly, I could see from his perspective the want to not have this do more damage that it already has. So I understand to a certain point the desire to "match her story" to be able to give her a better landing out of her job. 

But he should do it in a much more detached fashion. A conference call or a signed statement must be an option. They shouldn't have to get together for tea. 

Also, that part about "I can't guarantee that I won't want to check up on her" is B.S. If his marriage is on the line, he most certainly should be able to do just that.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

munchie said:


> So just got off the phone with husband again. It appears that now the OW's company will let her resign (instead of being "fired"), they will give her a consulting project for some period of time and give her severance pay. Her attorney wants to meet with him and OW this afternoon so they can corroborate stories so it won't appear that she was let go because of her relationship with him. I told him that I don't understand why they need to get together to do this ... that a conference call should be sufficient. He feels like he owes it to her (and her company) to do make this situation as painless as possible.
> 
> I keep asking him if he's detached himself from her emotionally. His answer (never resounding) is usually "I told you that I have." His big line is that "people like me ... people trust me ... I form close relationships with people ... and that's important to me." So he can't guarantee that he'll NEVER be in contact with her again because "his nature" is to be caring and have a genuine concern for people - and since she's someone he's cared about ... he 'might' want to see how she's doing from time to time. Sounds like a crock of sh*t, right? I should mention that he's in the public relations business -- so he's a master of "spin" when it comes to most situations.
> 
> Now that he's heard the news about her not officially getting 'fired' - he's already in a slightly better mood. He makes me feel like I'm on a roller coaster ride at an amusement park that never stops. I want to be comforting to him, but I also feel like I'm the last one on the list in terms of people he's trying to please at this moment. He claims otherwise but feels that it would be terrible of him not to help out and end this situation once and for all. I'm just not buying it, though.


OMG, he should not meet with the lawyer!!!!


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

I don't know about this 'don't go to the lawyer sit-down'.... that could be bad for him, professionally, with his own company. But I'd certainly request or even require his wife to join him if she wants to be there too.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Under no circumstances does your husband meet with her or her lawyer if he does file for divorce on grounds of adultery, make sure he knows this. Regardless of this call her husband and let him know of the affair. 

Your husband is far to willing to sacrifice you, your marriage all for his fantasy for the OW and his desire to protect her, its her problem not yours or his.



> He feels like he owes it to her (and her company) to do make this situation as painless as possible.


What a load of horse manure, call him and read him the riot act. Speak plainly so he understands the words "public exposure". 


His best course of action is to distance himself from her and never contact her again.

All I read here is he is upset for her, where is he upset for you, obviously no where, why are you not exposing this to her family? Do not fuel his adultery , any contact between them will encourage it to go underground. 


Do not tolerate his whimpering for her and ensure he knows if he goes near her you will advertise the affair and provide evidence. You have nothing to lose your marriage is over while he behaves like this and no amount of compromise on your side or standing on the sidelines will save it. 

Firm action and the intent to carry out your threat is all that will bring him to his senses . 

Can you imagine how her fantasy for him will grow even more as he will be the knight in shining armour ready to lie and save her, this will lose you your marriage. 

If you are concerned about his job , think of not having any money because he has moved in with the OW.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

I know all companies are different, but I sign an annual conflict of interest agreement where I attest that I have no close personal relationships, or other conflicts of interest, with my suppliers. The clincher is that everyone under my supervision, or within my group, including me, checks a special little box if we know of another person who may have violated the terms of their own agreement, under the threat of our own termination if we hide something. The check in this box elevates the form to a legal business review process. If any contractual agreements were made with her company under your hasband's watch, he should have opted out of the discussion.


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## munchie (May 17, 2011)

He doesn't understand why "I" don't understand that helping the OW (with her employment situation) is the right thing for him to do. He keeps telling me that it has nothing to do with him and I (wtf?) but that he would feel like a complete sh*t if he didn't help her out of this mess. What do you say to a person like this who feels that it's his duty to help this damsel in distress? He keeps asking me what he can do to prove to me that he's putting my feelings ahead of everyone else's, but when I say that I think he should be done with OW's situation ... he claims that he would be less of a person if he did that. This is a no-win.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

munchie you are making excuses for your husband.

Woman up and shut this down, give him a clear message and do not back down on it, there is no debate as he will ALWAYS have a reason the do what he wants to do. 

If you do not do this, you are going to cry and hurt every day , and ultimately divorce on his terms. Do not fool yourself, please listen to us.


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

munchie said:


> What do you say to a person like this who feels that it's his duty to help this damsel in distress?


You say "Goodbye"...

...and then "here are the papers for our separation agreement and divorce to follow."


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## oaksthorne (Mar 4, 2011)

2xloser said:


> You say "Goodbye"...
> 
> ...and then "here are the papers for our separation agreement and divorce to follow."


Ditto.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

For the purpose of full disclosure: I have never cheated or been cheated on in my marriage and am generally pretty even keeled about stuff. That said.


You acknowledge that you sexually starved your H for years. That he did talk to you about it repeatedly and you basically ignored him. You have now managed to mentally blameshift the whole thing on to him and her and are glad she got fired. 

The way you almost totally skipped over your role in precipitating this disaster - is - just - incredible. 

You need to go take a long hard look in the mirror. 




munchie said:


> I wanted to share this "news" with everyone as a followup. May 10th was my D-Day ... I found out that my husband of 20 years had been having a 5 month EA/PA with one of his clients! At the time, I posted a lot to this board and got amazing support for which I will be eternally grateful.
> 
> It's been a long three months ... but we're working on our marriage and have been making progress. My husband insists that he loves me and never intended to break up our family as a result of the affair. We immediately went to a MC ... but she felt that he had a lot of personal issues to work on, so he's been seeing another therapist 3 times a week. We've spent a gillion hours talking, crying, discussing everything and we're trying to get to a better place in our relationship.
> 
> ...


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## seductive (Aug 12, 2011)

it-guy said:


> I would insist on joinging him at this meeting.


:iagree:
Go to the meeting, dont leave him alone where there is any possibility to meet her.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

:smthumbup::smthumbup:


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## Disposition (Aug 2, 2011)

as they say, there are two sides to every story.....
i have been with my wife for 9 years now, and i've never cheated, but i have been cheated on (not by her)....
reading how your H is acting towards the OW, i don't see how he can say he's putting your feelings first. it seems like there's just too much emotional attachment towards the OW. either he's in denial about it or he just thinks you can't or won't figure it out.

only you can be the one to decide what's enough!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mem11363 said:


> for the purpose of full disclosure: I have never cheated or been cheated on in my marriage and am generally pretty even keeled about stuff. That said.
> 
> 
> You acknowledge that you sexually starved your h for years. That he did talk to you about it repeatedly and you basically ignored him. You have now managed to mentally blameshift the whole thing on to him and her and are glad she got fired.
> ...


quoted for truth


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

munchie said:


> He doesn't understand why "I" don't understand that helping the OW (with her employment situation) is the right thing for him to do. He keeps telling me that it has nothing to do with him and I (wtf?) but that he would feel like a complete sh*t if he didn't help her out of this mess. What do you say to a person like this who feels that it's his duty to help this damsel in distress? He keeps asking me what he can do to prove to me that he's putting my feelings ahead of everyone else's, but when I say that I think he should be done with OW's situation ... he claims that he would be less of a person if he did that. This is a no-win.


Your H isn’t thinking right. That’s clearly demonstrated by his agreement to meet with OW and her lawyer. He should never do that. The lawyer is acting on behalf of his client, not your H. Your H must be extremely naive to think anything else. You may have to watch his back with that, as he obviously isn’t and you still care for him.

Your H, who wants to stay with you, should pull the drawbridge up and concentrate, focus on you. Don’t blame yourself for his affair, that is 100% his responsibility. Be careful about what you “own up to”. It is my belief that acceptance of your role in the marriage problems is only done after he has cut off all contact with OW and is in a reconciliation process with you.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Conrad said:


> quoted for truth


I don’t understand this from you two. Why blame the victim? That stopped here quite a while back, it’s “old hat”.

The H is totally responsible for his actions, for what he does. Isn’t he?


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## sexuallyfustrated (Mar 24, 2011)

AFEH said:


> I don’t understand this from you two. Why blame the victim? That stopped here quite a while back, it’s “old hat”.
> 
> The H is totally responsible for his actions, for what he does. Isn’t he?


AGREEED!!!! Oh how I agree with you. Seems it would have been more respectful to the entire family if he would have left her. Oh no, never mind that he was married and decide to sneak, lie to her face, cheat and bend things to his will just to continually bring nothing but hurt, pain, distrust and shame to his family. NO NO forget that he continually had sex with this woman and and not just ruin one family but two. Of course it was her fault for not having enough sex with him and talking about it. Really?! Yes understood you must own up to the part you play and take responsibility for that part and she has HOWEVER, under NO circumstances should, he be blamed or take the blame for her husband choosing cheat. Talk about blame shifting.....seriously. Wow. No we should not sugar coat the truth but not tell someone take the bane for your spouse cheating because if you would have giving him more sex....who's to say it would not have still happened.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I'll say it again because I don't think it sank in the first time


what possible reason would the lawyer need your husband's statement to prove anything other than an affair did exist?

so either the lawyer..


A) expects your husband to lie (or was told a lie by the OW) and wants him to essentially lie on record

or

B) pin the blame all on him


neither case seems good for your husband if you ask me


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Not so fast. 

This was a sexless marriage with a H who had repeatedly complained about it. And in muncies own words, when she discovered the affair two things were true:
1. she and her H hadn't had sex for 4 MONTHS and
2. she really hadn't noticed it

And in fact it had been MANY years of sexual starvation for him. She was fine with it, and that includes being equally fine to the harm such long term and persistent rejection was doing him. 

This is a breach of her vow to "love" her husband. A total breach. As for lying - you betcha lying is bad. And she had been ducking/dodging and avoiding being straight and honest with HIM about her total lack of desire for him. 

So there is no sane reason for "jumping over" her bad behavior as that was clearly a trigger event. 

Go read my earlier posts. I was constructive and helpful while also insisting she own her piece of this train wreck. In the immediate aftermath she seemed inclined to do so. Now she has moved to a "it was all his/her" fault. 




sexuallyfustrated said:


> AGREEED!!!! Oh how I agree with you. Seems it would have been more respectful to the entire family if he would have left her. Oh no, never mind that he was married and decide to sneak, lie to her face, cheat and bend things to his will just to continually bring nothing but hurt, pain, distrust and shame to his family. NO NO forget that he continually had sex with this woman and and not just ruin one family but two. Of course it was her fault for not having enough sex with him and talking about it. Really?! Yes understood you must own up to the part you play and take responsibility for that part and she has HOWEVER, under NO circumstances should, he be blamed or take the blame for her husband choosing cheat. Talk about blame shifting.....seriously. Wow. No we should not sugar coat the truth but not tell someone take the bane for your spouse cheating because if you would have giving him more sex....who's to say it would not have still happened.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Her husband should have done the honorable thing and told her "I no longer want to be a part of this sexless marriage. I'm filing for divorce"

munchie may have been negligent in being a good lover to her husband but she did not deserved to be cheated on, no one does.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Actually she should have done the honorable thing many years ago and honestly told him why she wasn't attracted to him. ]

Instead she was perfectly comfortable splitting his big paychecks 50-50 and pretending that she wasn't slowly destroying his sexual self esteem. 

What she did to him and what he did to her were remarkably similar. Both required:

1. A pattern of lies and deliberate, premeditated deceit over a period of time
2. A willingness to damage the other persons sense of themself
3. And ultimately, a refusal to take responsibility for their part of the outcome - which is a 50-50 proposition




morituri said:


> Her husband should have done the honorable thing and told her "I no longer want to be a part of this sexless marriage. I'm filing for divorce"
> 
> munchie may have been negligent in being a good lover to her husband but she did not deserved to be cheated on, no one does.


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## sexuallyfustrated (Mar 24, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Actually she should have done the honorable thing many years ago and honestly told him why she wasn't attracted to him. ]
> 
> Instead she was perfectly comfortable splitting his big paychecks 50-50 and pretending that she wasn't slowly destroying his sexual self esteem.
> 
> ...


Why does things always have to boil down to those two things. Money or sex or the both. So because he still had to pay bills that he help make and still was not getting sex in the marriage she made him cheat. Lack of communication on both parts does not justify kissing, touching and getting naked and having sex with someone besides the person you married. The love in the wedding vows mean sex. I did not know that. What ever the case. Lack of communication, and not having sex regularity or even not at all does not mean she should take the blame for him having an affair. They both should have spoken up indeed, you ate correct. Take responsibility for the part she played ABSOLUTELY, but MUNCHIE YOU DID NOT DESERVE THIS. HE CHOOSE TO CHEAT.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Blaming munchie for her husbands affair is a fine way to help her. We all acknowledged that it takes two to make a marriage work or fail. It takes one to have an affair. 



> munchie may have been negligent in being a good lover to her husband but she did not deserved to be cheated on, no one does.


:iagree:

Lets focus on helping her through this, if her wayward husband chooses to stop his affair and start proper reconciliation then the marital issues can be worked on . Until then, please park the debate


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## LuvMyH (Nov 11, 2009)

I don't think it's about taking blame for the affair. It's about accepting responsibility for the part you play in the breakdown of the relationship. In most cases, the affair isn't the real problem in a marriage. It's a symptom of something bigger. You can end the affair, but if you don't address the issues that led to it, the chances of a successful reconciliation are greatly lowered. 

The ability to look within yourself and find fault is an admirable trait, in my opinion. Forgiving a remorseful spouse and working with them to better your marriage and yourselves is nothing to be ashamed of. If you know, in your heart, that you played a part in letting the door open to an affair and you believe the two of you can work through it, don't let anyone talk you out of it. 

As for being happy to see the OW face consequences for her actions- you're human. Your pain is still fresh and I don't think you're a bad person for feeling the way you do about her. She broke the girl code. . Just don't let it make you bitter. After you've healed and your marriage has recovered, you may actually feel sorry for her someday. I speak from experience.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sexuallyfustrated (Mar 24, 2011)

Eli-Zor said:


> Blaming munchie for her husbands affair is a fine way to help her. We all acknowledged that it takes two to make a marriage work or fail. It takes one to have an affair.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## munchie (May 17, 2011)

@MEM11363 -- As you might remember from my original post about the EA/PA back in May, while I don't blame myself for my H having the A ... I most certainly did take responsibility for my actions (or lack thereof) which allowed my husband to slip into the mindset of feeling lonely and unloved. While we didn't have sex frequently, it wasn't that I wasn't attracted to him or didn't love him, I just let other things take priority over our relationship. Yes, that was MY huge mistake. But there were priorities like our three teenage children and their schedules, work, running a household, etc., not to mention my own menopausal state and feeling tired and overwhelmed a lot. Although my husband is very needy for affection and attention -- I incorrectly assumed that he was an adult and would understand that eventually I would be able to focus more on him, but that right now, I was preoccupied by other things. We always had fun together, traveled, did a lot of family things, enjoyed each other's company (so I thought!), so while the marriage wasn't perfect, I thought we were doing ok and I honestly didn't realize the depths of his despair when it came to our relationship. He did talk constantly about our lack of sex, but he did it in abstract ways that left me unclear about how he planned to change the situation. Saying things like "your sex life may be over... but mine isn't." What does that mean? Ok ... his sex life wasn't over.  Does it mean that he's looking at porn? Does it mean that he's going to get it from someone else? Is he going to strip clubs? What?? Now he tells me that he assumed that I didn't love him, didn't like him and that in a few years when the kids were off to college ... he expected that I would kick him out. (WTF??) and that he stayed in our marriage out of obligation to our children because he "made a commitment." So he justified the EA/PA by saying that he deserved happiness and that while he didn't set out to have an affair ... things just happened. Even though it was against OW's company's policy to have a personal relationship with a vendor, even though both of their careers (and her job) were at stake, even though they were both married to other people, even though if caught it would create a tsunami that would affect A LOT of people ... they threw caution to the wind. 

Now he's beating himself up and is in an even deeper funk than before the affair happened. Now he says he's a bad person for, he had a million opportunities to prevent or end the A quickly, that he feels loathsome, he's ruined lives, careers, reputations, possibly our marriage, etc. I told him that I forgive him for what happened, what's done is done and that he needs to put it in the past and start moving forward. But now he's mired in this "woe is me" mindset now. That he has no joy in his life and that he's not sure he'll ever feel joy again. I'd like to give him a smack like that scene in "Moonstruck" when Cher smacks Nicholas Cage and say's "SNAP OUT OF IT!" 

Since I found out about the A in May ... I've done a complete 180 degree turnaround. I'm loving, affectionate, understanding and giving him a lot of attention. Although he claims to appreciate all that I'm doing ... he's stuck. He's helped the OW's and her attorney by providing information, his firm has lost the account, there's nothing more that can happened as far as that's concerned, AND I've told him that I want to work on our marriage and make it better than he ever imagined it could be. But all he can focus on is how terrible he feels about everything that's happened and how he's a loathsome person. I'm not sure what I do next.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

There is no need to explain anything and there is certainly no reason for you to accept blame for your husbands affair. He had a choice ? He made his choice as did she, now they and all the innocents around them reap the deceit.

Your husband is still in the fog of the affair , he is going to blame everyone except himself. Did he go to that attorneys meeting?

and do tell her husband , you have to get these waywards away from each other ,there is going to be fallout and it will get worse especially since your husband is not stepping away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Munchie part of the reason I want you to focus on breaking the affair is there cannot be any form of recovery while he persists on being in contact the OW. She is probably giving a sob story and he is the kisa . You will have time to recover your marriage , it will a difficult and hurtful period with great rewards at the end. However he is still in the affair, there can be no recovery while this state persists.

Expose this to the OW husband, to your husbands company, your family and his. He has gone to far with the affair , people on the ground at his and her work already know of them. You have to plan that he may be fired with or without your exposure. No disrespect to your husband he should change jobs , he has shown he is morally unable to hold a position of trust. 

Follow the plan, look after you and your children, he has choices to be with you and your marriage or not. His current behaviour says he is not!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## munchie (May 17, 2011)

Yes, I agree that he had a choice. They both did. And the consequences for that choice are now creating havoc for everyone. My husband has his own business - so his plan is to tell his 10 employees that they lost the account due to political issues within the company. A lot of people at OW's company know that she and my H had a personal relationship -- but he's not sure the extent of what people know. A "personal relationship" doesn't necessarily mean a PA as far as company policy goes. He's resigned the account but feels bad that he's left a lot of people at OW's company in the lurch because he was a long-time, trusted and valued vendor/consultant to the firm and had good working relationships with a half dozen people. 

He feels bad that OW lost her job - a job that she worked many years to get and that was very prestigious. He feels bad that he didn't keep her safe from ruining her reputation. He feels bad that he couldn't do more to help her keep her job (the meeting with the attorney got canceled, so him going or not was moot.) He feels bad that he wasn't careful enough for people not to find out. He feels bad that other people in the future might find out. He feels bad that he hurt me so much. He feels bad that he put his own happiness and desires before doing the right thing. He feels bad that he didn't just leave (me) when he was feeling so miserable about his life. He feels bad that now I'm turning into the person that he always wanted me to be ... but he's not sure he's ready to accept me as such. He feels bad that he put so much time and energy into the relationship with OW when he should have been focusing on his business and cultivating new clients. ETC., ETC., ETC. 

So when I ask what I can do to help him feel better ... he says "Nothing ... I hate myself. I don't deserve happiness and will probably never have it again." OMG ... enough already.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

This is all nonsense. Constructive abandonment is no longer grounds for divorce in any state in the US. Any lawyer knows this. NY was the last state to adopt no-fault. The issues anyone has to discuss anymore are:


A criminal act including fraud, tax evasion or physical violence
Money


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## Tap1214 (Aug 14, 2011)

STOP making excuses for him!! It is very clear, by his actions that he does not care about you, or your feelings!!! Obviously he's still in love with OW, otherwise he won't be taking the steps he's taking to protect the OW.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Give him time in IC. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Anyone with an ounce of integrity as a WS will feel severe remorse and their self esteem and image are in tatters, Yes they deserve it for the terrible things they did. On the other hand, their mental health, being able to look in the mirror, loving themselves again and forgiving themselves are all necessary for healthy relationship. Munchie, while I know you were severely hurt, I would rather be in your shoes than his. You need to be compassionate about the fact that he his so disturbed over the end result of his actions. Being belligerent about it does him no good. Do you want him to destroy himself mentally or feel so down he commits suicide? I don't think so or you wouldn't be with him. Show some compassion and be the shoulder he cries on and the person he talks to. WOuld you rather there was someone else to do that for him?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Munchie,
I understand this is hard for you. Basically all the misery he experienced spread out over time - you are experiencing in a compressed and more intense way. 

This is a difficult situation made far, far more difficult by how hard it is to speak the truth while simultaneously loving your partner. So let me try to help you with that. 

The reason you two are stuck right now is simple. You are:
1. Telling hiim you forgive him and showing him your forgiveness and love through your actions
2. In parallel you are rewriting your part in this story as much as you can. Telling him it wasn't a desire issue is clearly not true. Telling him that you just couldn't find one hour twice a week for his most important need just hammers home how profoundly you had deprioritized him. 


Pre-affair you were so deep in denial that when he said "your sex life may be over but mine isn't" you chose not to ask for clarification. 

Think about that for a moment. He made an incredibly aggressive statement - and yes it was somewhat ambiguous - and your response was to claim that "he was being cryptic". Why wouldn't you ASK him what he meant? Very simple answer to that. You didn't want to discuss sex becase you didn't want to have sex. 

I absolutely believe you ARE attracted to him NOW. Oddly enough an affair often triggers strong sexual desire. It is linked to the fear of losing your spouse to a competitor. Very primal stuff. 

It is also obvious to anyone reading your initial posts that you felt little to no desire for him for a long, long time. The menopause made it worse, but the core problem was around for most of your marriage. 

I don't see how he can "get over this" until you have a series of painful, but honest conversations about how all this played out over time. Frankly if I were him I would be very reluctant to trust that you will sustain your current pattern. Because your prior pattern can be described very simply the way you did below. 

My H simply wasn't important enough for me to prioritize this core need of his despite his begging, pleading, and ultimately threatening behavior. The kids, my job, my needs, my friends, all came before him. And consequently 4 months could go by and I didn't even notice we hadn't had sex. 

His core issue is the easiest one in the world to describe. Generally speaking he earned respect but when it wasn't given he didn't demand it. And yes, that is on him. 

But if you can't fool a guy (me) who has only read a few posts of your situation, do you really think you can rewrite history and make any headway with him. 




munchie said:


> @MEM11363 -- As you might remember from my original post about the EA/PA back in May, while I don't blame myself for my H having the A ... I most certainly did take responsibility for my actions (or lack thereof) which allowed my husband to slip into the mindset of feeling lonely and unloved. While we didn't have sex frequently, it wasn't that I wasn't attracted to him or didn't love him, I just let other things take priority over our relationship. Yes, that was MY huge mistake. But there were priorities like our three teenage children and their schedules, work, running a household, etc., not to mention my own menopausal state and feeling tired and overwhelmed a lot. Although my husband is very needy for affection and attention -- I incorrectly assumed that he was an adult and would understand that eventually I would be able to focus more on him, but that right now, I was preoccupied by other things. We always had fun together, traveled, did a lot of family things, enjoyed each other's company (so I thought!), so while the marriage wasn't perfect, I thought we were doing ok and I honestly didn't realize the depths of his despair when it came to our relationship. He did talk constantly about our lack of sex, but he did it in abstract ways that left me unclear about how he planned to change the situation. Saying things like "your sex life may be over... but mine isn't." What does that mean? Ok ... his sex life wasn't over. Does it mean that he's looking at porn? Does it mean that he's going to get it from someone else? Is he going to strip clubs? What?? Now he tells me that he assumed that I didn't love him, didn't like him and that in a few years when the kids were off to college ... he expected that I would kick him out. (WTF??) and that he stayed in our marriage out of obligation to our children because he "made a commitment." So he justified the EA/PA by saying that he deserved happiness and that while he didn't set out to have an affair ... things just happened. Even though it was against OW's company's policy to have a personal relationship with a vendor, even though both of their careers (and her job) were at stake, even though they were both married to other people, even though if caught it would create a tsunami that would affect A LOT of people ... they threw caution to the wind.
> 
> Now he's beating himself up and is in an even deeper funk than before the affair happened. Now he says he's a bad person for, he had a million opportunities to prevent or end the A quickly, that he feels loathsome, he's ruined lives, careers, reputations, possibly our marriage, etc. I told him that I forgive him for what happened, what's done is done and that he needs to put it in the past and start moving forward. But now he's mired in this "woe is me" mindset now. That he has no joy in his life and that he's not sure he'll ever feel joy again. I'd like to give him a smack like that scene in "Moonstruck" when Cher smacks Nicholas Cage and say's "SNAP OUT OF IT!"
> 
> Since I found out about the A in May ... I've done a complete 180 degree turnaround. I'm loving, affectionate, understanding and giving him a lot of attention. Although he claims to appreciate all that I'm doing ... he's stuck. He's helped the OW's and her attorney by providing information, his firm has lost the account, there's nothing more that can happened as far as that's concerned, AND I've told him that I want to work on our marriage and make it better than he ever imagined it could be. But all he can focus on is how terrible he feels about everything that's happened and how he's a loathsome person. I'm not sure what I do next.


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Munchie,
> I understand this is hard for you. Basically all the misery he experienced spread out over time - you are experiencing in a compressed and more intense way.
> 
> This is a difficult situation made far, far more difficult by how hard it is to speak the truth while simultaneously loving your partner. So let me try to help you with that.
> ...


And his actions? Justifiable? Acceptable? Correct? Forgivable? Who came first? Chicken or egg? Because he isn't speaking truth either! (based on your assumptions)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

He is using his guilt to maintain emotional distance. He is also using guilt as the excuse for any continuing bad behavior regarding the other woman. 

She is forgiving him - truly doing so - in the hope she can jump over a whole marriage during which she engaged in non-stop deceptive behavior to avoid dealing with their sexual issues. 

After so many years of deception on her part and a failure to demand respect on his part, she actually felt safe ignoring his statement that "your sex life may be over but mine isn't". 

When he uttered that phrase she elected to engage in "willfull incomprehension". She simply insisted she didn't know what he meant and THEN CHOSE NOT TO ASK. In truth by that point she felt very confident that he would never actually assert himself sexually in that manner. 

A different and sadder way to describe this is that she felt she had total authority over his sex life, and zero responsibility for actually ensuring he felt loved in that way. 

And his part in that fiasco was not demanding an alignment of authority and responsibility. 

I will contrast that with my home situation. My W asserts her authority over our sex life without hesitation. She expects and demands total monogamy. And at the same time she accepts that she has taken on a large and critical responsibility to ensure we have at minimum a good sex life. And when possible a great sex life. 

If I EVER said to my W - "your sex life may be over but mine is not" after the initial explosion she would demand a brutally honest conversation. 

As for Munchie. She is here. He isn't. If she wants a healthy marriage she needs to begin to unwind this giant gordian knot of sexual deceit that began decades ago. 

At this point, they will never enter the future without untangling the past. And that means at some level she is going to have to own up to a very, very ugly truth. Which is that in this area that REALLY matters to a man, she pretended it wasn't a big deal and actually treated him as badly as she thought she could safely get away with. 

And THIS - more than any other reason - is why I am glad I married a strong willed, tough (slightly ****y) woman. I don't know what I might have done to a weak partner. And truly I don't want to know. 



golfergirl said:


> And his actions? Justifiable? Acceptable? Correct? Forgivable? Who came first? Chicken or egg? Because he isn't speaking truth either! (based on your assumptions)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Choices*

Munchie,
Yes. He had a choice. He could have confronted you and threatened a divorce over your total disrespect for his needs. 

Just as you had a choice so many, many years ago. You could have been brutally honest about what he needed to do to create desire/avoid killing your desire. 

As he chose, you chose. Both took the non-confrontational route. Both engaged in a brutal deceit. And now - locked in the present - you cannot proceed. Because until you really address the past, he has no real reason to expect that the future will be different. 



munchie said:


> Yes, I agree that he had a choice. They both did. And the consequences for that choice are now creating havoc for everyone. My husband has his own business - so his plan is to tell his 10 employees that they lost the account due to political issues within the company. A lot of people at OW's company know that she and my H had a personal relationship -- but he's not sure the extent of what people know. A "personal relationship" doesn't necessarily mean a PA as far as company policy goes. He's resigned the account but feels bad that he's left a lot of people at OW's company in the lurch because he was a long-time, trusted and valued vendor/consultant to the firm and had good working relationships with a half dozen people.
> 
> He feels bad that OW lost her job - a job that she worked many years to get and that was very prestigious. He feels bad that he didn't keep her safe from ruining her reputation. He feels bad that he couldn't do more to help her keep her job (the meeting with the attorney got canceled, so him going or not was moot.) He feels bad that he wasn't careful enough for people not to find out. He feels bad that other people in the future might find out. He feels bad that he hurt me so much. He feels bad that he put his own happiness and desires before doing the right thing. He feels bad that he didn't just leave (me) when he was feeling so miserable about his life. He feels bad that now I'm turning into the person that he always wanted me to be ... but he's not sure he's ready to accept me as such. He feels bad that he put so much time and energy into the relationship with OW when he should have been focusing on his business and cultivating new clients. ETC., ETC., ETC.
> 
> So when I ask what I can do to help him feel better ... he says "Nothing ... I hate myself. I don't deserve happiness and will probably never have it again." OMG ... enough already.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

MEM,

If we are as similar as I believe we are, you truly do not want to know. Been there - done that.





MEM11363 said:


> He is using his guilt to maintain emotional distance. He is also using guilt as the excuse for any continuing bad behavior regarding the other woman.
> 
> She is forgiving him - truly doing so - in the hope she can jump over a whole marriage during which she engaged in non-stop deceptive behavior to avoid dealing with their sexual issues.
> 
> ...


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## munchie (May 17, 2011)

The big issue now seems that my H is having a hard time getting past his depression and feelings of worthlessness now that he feels like he's ruined a lot of lives. He says he feels miserable, numb, worthless, unworthy of respect and love and just an all-around ****ty guy because of all the hurt he blames himself for causing. I told him that no one died, no one lost their life savings (a la Bernie Madoff), everyone still has their health and many people (ME!! His family, his friends, etc.) still love and respect him. Yes, he made several bad decisions .. but he's human and no one is perfect. In spite of this, he just keeps falling deeper into an abyss. Not quite sure how to help him.

Meanwhile, the OW's attorney released the official statement saying that OW resigned from the company for "personal reasons", but would be retained as a consultant for six months. I asked my H if OW's husband knew the real reason why she was terminated and if OW's husband knows about the EA/PA with my H. He said he didn't think OW's husband knows anything. There's a part of me that would LOVE to send an anonymous note to him letting him know everything.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I would send that note to her for your own piece of "mind". But you truly need to consider what MEM is telling you. Your husband damn near hit you over the head and you ignored him with your me attitude.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Munchie,
There likely is a way to "fix" this - but it is going to require you to approach this in a very different way than you have so far. 

If you get to the point where you are ready to do so, let me know and I will post something for you to try that will likely help him begin to move forward. 




munchie said:


> The big issue now seems that my H is having a hard time getting past his depression and feelings of worthlessness now that he feels like he's ruined a lot of lives. He says he feels miserable, numb, worthless, unworthy of respect and love and just an all-around ****ty guy because of all the hurt he blames himself for causing. I told him that no one died, no one lost their life savings (a la Bernie Madoff), everyone still has their health and many people (ME!! His family, his friends, etc.) still love and respect him. Yes, he made several bad decisions .. but he's human and no one is perfect. In spite of this, he just keeps falling deeper into an abyss. Not quite sure how to help him.
> 
> Meanwhile, the OW's attorney released the official statement saying that OW resigned from the company for "personal reasons", but would be retained as a consultant for six months. I asked my H if OW's husband knew the real reason why she was terminated and if OW's husband knows about the EA/PA with my H. He said he didn't think OW's husband knows anything. There's a part of me that would LOVE to send an anonymous note to him letting him know everything.


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## oaksthorne (Mar 4, 2011)

Conrad said:


> quoted for truth


There is no excuse for an A; none. An A is not the fault of the betrayed spouse, period! If someone feels they are not getting out of the marriage what they want, they either leave or negotiate with their spouse. I didn't get what I wanted out of my marriage either, but I didn't talk myself into becoming a liar and a cheat. No one is entitled to cheat, no one!


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## munchie (May 17, 2011)

@MEM11363 -- I'm ready to listen. Got any good ideas for me? H & I had another conversation before. He's happy for the concern and caring that I'm showing, but he's resigned himself to be miserable. Nothing I seem to do or say seems to change anything. I'm just not sure what to do at this point.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Munchie,
Preface: This is intended to help. For a moment follow my logic because part of his angst is caused by intense confusion. 

He is COMPLETELY confused by how he feels and what is happening. Before continuing you need to ask yourself a very difficult question. I think this is the most difficult question in a long term marriage. Do you really love HIM, or do you primarily love how he treats you? If the former is true, you will be able to do the stuff below. If not, you won't. 

In short form he is stuck because: In HIS mind, when he did everything "right" you loved him less and certainly desired him MUCH LESS. 

And now he had done what in HIS MIND is the worst possible thing and the consequence is that you love him MORE, and desire him for the first time in over a decade. 

He never understood how being "too nice" completely turned you off (details below). And now doesn't understand at all how this terrible breach has somehow made things better. 

He sees you as a total contradiction instead of a very normal woman with a very typical sexual response pattern. 

Compounding that, because you feel threatened, you are attempting to deal with this in a typical but to him a very frightening manner. 
1. You are continuing to say that you were attracted to him. This may be the single most destructive thing you can do. At some level he knows that isn't true but cannot bring himself to confront you. Why can't you give him "Athol Kay's" book "married man sex life" and simply say "this guy understands women - read it and then lets talk". And if he reads it he will understand how he killed your desire for him. And you need to give him permission to be ANGRY AS HELL at BOTH of you. Himself for being clueless. And you for pretending everything was ok because you were afraid of forcing the issue to a head. 

He isn't capable of doing this next bit, so you need to do it for him. If you really love HIM you will do this. If you primarily love how he treats you - you won't.

2. By being too nice, clingy and needy he killed your "core respect for him as a man". And so you kept deprioritizing him and he kept trying to "nice his way out of the jam he was in". Which just made things all that much worse. And ultimately you began to deprioritize him as much as you thought you safely could. Probably not a conscious thing. Certainly an ugly thing. TELL HIM THAT. And FCS, tell him you are sorry. REALLY sorry. Sorry that you took advantage of his kindness and love. Tell him that you are every bit as guilty as he is and that you need HIM to forgive himself so that YOU can forgive yourself. 


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
For more than a decade your H believed that if he was nice enough, loving enough, patient enough, understanding enough, generous enough, etc. you would actually desire him. He had no clue that the MORE he did, the LESS desire you felt. He hadn't the slightest idea that if he needed to:
- stop over loving you - which came across as clingy, needy and weak
- show some edgy masculinity (soft, gentle sex combined with being clingy is a massive libido killer) 
- slightly destabilize the relationship in a firm and determined way by telling you (I may love you, but I intensely dislike how you are treating me physically and that is not acceptable)


This is from a post I made a year or so ago. A lot of people have read this and then made use of it. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
In an LTR the ideal emotional temperature is one that BOTH people are comfortable with. Couples often “fight” for decades over the “thermostat” setting. He likes it really warm and constantly shows and wants to be shown love. She is likes it cooler and dislikes constantly being barraged with “love” as it makes her feel emotionally crowded. She starts seeing him as “clingy and insecure” and she withdraws. He clings harder, she pulls back further feeling ever more crowded. Sex dies and he frantically tries to raise the temperature using an ever increasing stream of love. She loses respect and either makes the marriage sexless, ends it or has an affair.

When you overheat someone with too much love, THEIR natural reaction is to try to “cool off” by giving you less love and less OR by provoking conflict to get you to go BACK UP. And they often reduce/stop having sex with you because when they already feel overheated/claustrophobic the LAST thing they want is the intense closeness of sex. Below is an example of badly mismatched thermostat settings.

The WARM/HOT partner wants to “raise” the temperature so they:
1. Are almost always saying ILY or IAILWY first
2. Typically initiate calls/texts/emails when apart/one or both are at work
3. Make “peace” after a fight even when your partner clearly wronged you 
4. Walk around visibly angry/VERY angry after a fight (this comes across as “I am furious that you – the person I LOVE SO MUCH – is doing x,y,z to ME
5. Anxiously keep trying to make up when you were in the wrong because you cannot bear having them angry with you
6. Are mostly/always initiating physical contact (hugs, kisses, touches, groping)
7. When anxious you initiate “talks” about the R, typically to “fix” them/their behavior 
8. Do MORE, sometimes WAY MORE than your fair share of housework
9. Put their needs ahead of yours whenever there is a priority conflict
10. Are constantly seeking their approval
11. Show anxiety or fear when they are angry/frustrated with you
12. Initiate sex when their body language radiates a “lack” of interest/desire, pout/sulk get angry when they tactfully decline sex
The COOL partner wants less warmth so they:
1. React irritably/with hostility to HOT behaviors such as:
a. Discussions about the R
b. Requests for sex. An irritated “NO” when asked for sex is an attempt to throw a bucket of ice water on a painfully overheated moment
2. Often behave more and more disrespectfully to their warmer partner and often steadily deprioritize both the partner and the R hoping to lower the temperature
3. Provoke their partner to create conflict and space

The Warm partner thinks they are repeatedly conveying “I LOVE YOU” with all this activity. The Cooler partner actually hears it as a question, repeated over and over ad nauseum: “Do YOU love ME”? Imagine if you replaced every loving act by literally asking “Do you love me”? How well do you think THAT would fly. 

The core message this thermostat mismatch sends to the cooler partner is: I DON’T DESERVE YOU. And over time your behavior convinces them you are right. 






munchie said:


> @MEM11363 -- I'm ready to listen. Got any good ideas for me? H & I had another conversation before. He's happy for the concern and caring that I'm showing, but he's resigned himself to be miserable. Nothing I seem to do or say seems to change anything. I'm just not sure what to do at this point.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Buy "surviving an affair" by Harley and book your husband in to IC to build himself up. You must close the OW down and in fairness to her husband please let him know of the affair, he has a right to know the truth, the only way this will happen is if you tell him. The last thing you want is for your marriage to start recovery , it looks great then the husband finds out and hell breaks lose. All the good work is then lost.

There is a very high likelihood that this will happen. Get your husband on board as to how you tell the husband, it is not a decision of if you tell but how. Do not delay this , failure to address this can destroy any chance of recovery.

On a positive note your marriage can recover, your husband can participate in a recovery programme , both of you can be more loving and rewarding marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Wow- how many times do we have to say this?-

Tell the OW's husband



He deserves to know, plain and simple


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## grizabella (May 8, 2011)

You need to get your husband to a doctor for some meds. A course of antidepressants could help him think more clearly. He only needs to accept responsibility for his part, not hers.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

munchie said:


> Now he tells me that he assumed that I didn't love him, didn't like him and that in a few years when the kids were off to college ... he expected that I would kick him out. (WTF??) and that he stayed in our marriage out of obligation to our children because he "made a commitment."


This is a scary quote, when you say WTF. You must know that your husband felt unloved by you, if you were not sexual with him. Him having an affair was a cowardly way to deal with it, but you will never move on unless you can eliminate the "WTF" part or your thought process and truly understand and internalize the feeling of not being loved, rejection, pain that you caused him.

This is his confusion. His confusion is that he did not feel loved by you, and he did feel loved by the OW. So what "felt" right was morally wrong and what felt wrong was morally right. This is why he's having trouble getting past the affair. This is why he's torn up. And nothing you have said or done has changed this really.

You could decide he is a jerk and that it's not fair to blame the victim. No one including myself could argue with that since he did the ultimate betrayal. But I don't think that gets you to a recovery that you desire. I really think you have to show alot of empathy toward him, his feelings, a deep understanding of the pain that you caused him by rejecting him for years. He needs to feel safe that if he recommits to his marriage that he will not get rejected in the future.

I don't really agree with the "give him a book to show him how to become more attractive to you". I think that is telling him that he is broke and that he has a problem acting attractive. BUT he already proved to himself that he is not broken and is sexually attractive to females.

I think you need to acknowledge the pain of rejection, and make him feel safe that you understand your lack of sexuality is your fault, that you understand and state why you did it, understand and state why it led to his actions, and assure him it is not part of his future relationship with you. In exchange, he needs to start getting on the munchie train and forget about the OW permanently.


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## munchie (May 17, 2011)

Thanks everyone for all the advice. I'm not sure anyone really addressed what I can do at this point to help him feel better about himself. My H and I both acknowledge that we're making progress on getting our marriage back to a better place. I've been compassionate and understanding. We're having sex 4 nights a week and it's been really great. I've been showing him a lot of love, being an empathetic listening and giving him lots of attention and affection. Yes, had I done this before - his EA/PA probably wouldn't have happened. But I've taken responsibility for my mistakes and I'm determined not to ever let that happen again. I've apologized many times to him. I'm not going through the motions now ... my feelings are very genuine and at some point I hope he accepts and believes it. In spite of everything that's happened ... I still love him very much and feel like this is a marriage that's meant to last. A different woman may have been able to say "You cheated on me ... get the hell out" - but I'm willing to put everything behind us. I want to do everything in my power to keep us together and strengthen our marriage.

But now that the dominoes are falling everywhere because the OW's company found out about their personal relationship - he's sunk into this abyss of depression and self-loathing. He feels badly that he disappointed and hurt so many people, he's upset that his actions resulting in someone losing her job, he's upset that he hurt me and our family, he feels numb, worthless, anxious and complained of having no motivation for anything. He owns his own business and has 10 employees. He said last night that he almost called a meeting and told everyone he was shutting down the business. He's wallowing in self-pity nonstop. I keep telling him that he can't blame himself entirely, that one person lost her job but she'll probably get a new one before long, that everyone still has their health, no one lost their homes or life savings -- that he's burdening himself unnecessarily. Even when I tell him that I still love him and he's a good person who made a few bad decisions -- all he can say is "I'm NOT a good person ... don't tell me I am." He insists he'll feel badly about himself for the rest of his life. The more I try to make him feel better ... the worse he feels because he insists that he's a bad person and doesn't deserve good things in life. He's been seeing a therapist for the last three months, but they're dredging up a lot of stuff and his deep whole keeps getting deeper.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Sounds to me like his IC isn't worth a damn. Theya re very hard to find but I would strongly suggest looking for a psychiatrist that also does psychotherapy. Usually all most psychiatrists want to do is monitor and prescribe meds without the therapy. I believe and it worked extremely well for my wayward wife, that both are needed by the same person for both to truly be effective. A psychologist cannot prescribe meds and many are not that good. It is hard to change IC's but in your husbands case the lack of improvement requires it. Not sure if you work or in what. If you PM me I can suggest how to go about finding a good one. I agree with the other poster that meds are needed. He is in depression and therapy alone isn't enough. Unfortunately, all you can do is be supportive and help him find the right help. You can't fix him. It sounds to me like you are doing the right things. Show him lots of comforting, hugging, hand holding and I love you's. When he says I'm a bad person person, just respond I think you a great person who did something very bad. I need you to find a way to forgive yourself as I have forgiven you so you can show me the kind of love you are truly capable of - I need that now! Is your H at all religious? It helped my wife significantly to see a priest and privately confess. But get on finding a psychiatrist that does therapy first and foremost. Oh and when your husband mentions wanting to shut down the business and not having motivation - ask him to delegate what he can and remember shutting down the business will throw 10 lives into turmoil and problems not to mention further lowering his own self esteem in what he has accomplished in setting up the business - neither of which are in his best interest.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

munchie said:


> Thanks everyone for all the advice. I'm not sure anyone really addressed what I can do at this point to help him feel better about himself.


Never in any way whatsoever attempt to minimise, play down, reduce, decrease the way he “feels”, his emotions. If you continue to do that, in the way you already have, you are denying him his emotions. His emotions are at the very core of who he is and by trying to deny him his emotions you are trying to deny the man himself. This may go as far to the extent that he will realise that as far as you are concerned he does not “really” exist. And if he does not really exist to you, the one he professes to love and wants to stay with, then he may well get suicidal thoughts or totally and utterly give up on you and either walk out and go off by himself or start-up again in a new life with his AP.

You’ve already “denied the man” (who he is, his emotions, his emotional needs) in your marriage before the affair. You are continuing to do so even now. MEM has been trying to get through to you about do you love the man or do you love what the man provides for you. You are not listening to MEM, you are an exceedingly far way from understanding him. MEM knows what he is talking about.

If you continue the way you are your H will never believe that you love him no matter how much you profess that you do.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

If I may, stop this right now.

You keep saying you are "helpless" with him, etc. Total B.S.

He CAN get past all of this if you're honest with him.

Deep down, you know this, but are likely afraid.

I'm dead-level certain he's sitting at the 50 yard line simply waiting for you to own your part in this.

If you don't, he'll likely take back up with her and leave you.

I've been in his shoes.

It's really your choice.





munchie said:


> The big issue now seems that my H is having a hard time getting past his depression and feelings of worthlessness now that he feels like he's ruined a lot of lives. He says he feels miserable, numb, worthless, unworthy of respect and love and just an all-around ****ty guy because of all the hurt he blames himself for causing. I told him that no one died, no one lost their life savings (a la Bernie Madoff), everyone still has their health and many people (ME!! His family, his friends, etc.) still love and respect him. Yes, he made several bad decisions .. but he's human and no one is perfect. In spite of this, he just keeps falling deeper into an abyss. Not quite sure how to help him.
> 
> Meanwhile, the OW's attorney released the official statement saying that OW resigned from the company for "personal reasons", but would be retained as a consultant for six months. I asked my H if OW's husband knew the real reason why she was terminated and if OW's husband knows about the EA/PA with my H. He said he didn't think OW's husband knows anything. There's a part of me that would LOVE to send an anonymous note to him letting him know everything.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

It takes two people to make a crappy marriage. She had her part in it and so did he. His response is to lie and cheat on his wife, refuse contact with the OW and create a fallout of epic porportions and she is getting the finger pointed at her saying that hopefully he forgives her. 
MEM, stunned. He is 100% responsible for his actions. He had plenty of choices and he chose this one and now you blame her for his bad choices? Not taking ownership for your own actions and blaming someone else is the furthest thing from manning up I can think of. Wow.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> It takes two people to make a crappy marriage. She had her part in it and so did he. His response is to lie and cheat on his wife, refuse contact with the OW and create a fallout of epic porportions and she is getting the finger pointed at her saying that hopefully he forgives her.
> MEM, stunned. He is 100% responsible for his actions. He had plenty of choices and he chose this one and now you blame her for his bad choices? Not taking ownership for your own actions and blaming someone else is the furthest thing from manning up I can think of. Wow.


Are you really trolling Conrad and/or MEM?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

AFEH said:


> Are you really trolling Conrad and/or MEM?


I am saying that blaming someone else for a person's actions is ridiculous and that I was shocked that those two were. 
I wanted the OP to know that while her behavior in her marriage contributed to it's downfall, it was her husband who bears 100%blame for handling things the way he did. Do you not agree with that or do we get a pass for our actions based on what someone else does?
I just found this thread and decided to respond. Trolling? Lordy.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Brennan,

Do you really "not" see the words that she is "helpless" to assist him in his struggles with this?

C'mon!

Never thought you'd buy into the victim crap.

She is washing her hands of 18 years of neglect.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Brennan,
> 
> Do you really "not" see the words that she is "helpless" to assist him in his struggles with this?
> 
> ...


I was not suggesting that she is helpless. What I was saying is that blame for action needs to be placed squarely where it belongs. She is responsible for hers and he should be for his. Saying she is responsible for his is outrageous. He made a choice and a bad one at that and the fallout is epic. That is his to own up to same as her having to own up for her actions.
I am not saying he is to blame for the marriage decline. I AM however saying he is 100% responsible for his choice to cheat.
Do you disagree with that? :scratchhead:


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I 1000% agree with you bright eyes. The affair is his decision and he is at fault for it happening. However, the conditions that helped make him vulnerable to it and would remain there if not resolved are PARTLY her actions. I accepted responsibility for the errors I made in my marriage, not in the affair but in my marriage and they definitely contributed to my wife's vulnerability and our not resolving the issues that drove us apart. HE owns the affair and it's results. The BOTH own repairing the marriage and making it strong enough to resist another affair. She cannot fix him anymore than he can fix her. They need to work as a Team united in making the marriage good for both of them or it is doomed to failure again. She does seem intent on being the victim and not repairing her own damage to THEIR marriage.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

The husband is not here asking for advice.
Therefore, figuring out who is to blame does not help anything.
The advice to the wife, who is here, regarding what she can do is relevant. The advice that says "Go blame your husband, it's all his fault", does not help the wife because it provides no actions she can take to help her marriage recover.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bob,
Glad you are seeing this for what it is. We can't help Mr. Munchie as he is not with us. As for Ms. Munchie these are my observations. 

For more than a decade she behaved in a sexually deceitful manner. He was over heating the marriage and acting in a weak manner. She refused him sex over and over because she was turned off. Actually I don't blame her for being turned off as most women would have been. I do see her as responsible for being deceitful. But the past is in the past. 

What I have attempted to convey to her, without success is this: She is continuing to be deceitful. Specifically:
1. She is choosing not to tell him why she was turned off by him
2. She is electing not to be brutally honest and acknowledge that she treated him as badly (in that area) as she thought she could get away with

Deconstruct one of their exchanges:
Him: Your sex life may be over but mine isn't
Her: (Quitely conversing with herself)
That could mean any of the following:
- Porn? (big yawn - good maybe he will completely stop bothering me)
- Strip clubs? (as long as no one in our social circle finds out - no big deal - and maybe he will stop pestering me for sex)
- Full blown affair (he doesn't have the balls)

She is 100 percent responsible for deceiving him and slowly destroying his self esteem. He is 100 percent responsible for not asserting himself. And he is also 100 percent responsible for cheating. 

I hope they can both find a way to slowly, patiently and gently start telling each other the truth. 





AFEH said:


> Are you really trolling Conrad and/or MEM?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

For the record, I wasn't trolling you MEM. I know you know me better than that! I like this post you just made. It spells things out the way it should have a ways back. BOTH are responsible for what they did. That was what my point was. Yes, she has a hand in all of this....a very big one. Ultimately he made a choice though. 
Now being gentle here, as a woman and a high drive one at that, there are a lot of women who do not know why they lost sexual attraction so I am hesitant to say it is deceit per se. It is possible she literally doesn't know why. There are lots of women here who post about this often and they are stunned when it happens and they too suffer. Did Op actually post that there was a reason she lost desire and lied about it? I admit I did not read every post/response.
Also wanted to add I am married to a LD spouse, as you know. He was the one who deceived me (yes) and never told me why for 16 years. I know exactly the pain her husband goes through and I fully empathize with him. I don't want anybody here to think I automatically take up for women because nothing could be further from the truth. What I take up for is ownership.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bright,
No offence taken. This is difficult stuff. If you ask me why I "desire" my W a lot of it is caused by a behavioral short list:
- She is difficult mostly but not always in a cute/funny way. Yep - deep sigh - why is that a turn on? No idea. But it is. 
- She is a little bit biicchy - another deep sigh - why is THAT a turn on - no idea
- I am a little bit scared of her
- I respect her

If you asked her why she desires me, I am certain that respect, fear and the physical dominance/mildly rough approach to sex are big factors. And I have an edge to me that is not always fun but shows up quickly when needed. 




Therealbrighteyes said:


> For the record, I wasn't trolling you MEM. I know you know me better than that! I like this post you just made. It spells things out the way it should have a ways back. BOTH are responsible for what they did. That was what my point was. Yes, she has a hand in all of this....a very big one. Ultimately he made a choice though.
> Now being gentle here, as a woman and a high drive one at that, there are a lot of women who do not know why they lost sexual attraction so I am hesitant to say it is deceit per se. It is possible she literally doesn't know why. There are lots of women here who post about this often and they are stunned when it happens and they too suffer. Did Op actually post that there was a reason she lost desire and lied about it? I admit I did not read every post/response.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Bright,
> No offence taken. This is difficult stuff. If you ask me why I "desire" my W a lot of it is caused by a behavioral short list:
> - She is difficult mostly but not always in a cute/funny way. Yep - deep sigh - why is that a turn on? No idea. But it is.
> - She is a little bit biicchy - another deep sigh - why is THAT a turn on - no idea
> ...


Oh it's easy to pinpoint attraction. No question about that. What is difficult for (some) women is to pinpoint lack of attraction. Some just literally wake up one day and **poof** gone. That's why I said I am hesitant to say OP was deceitful unless she posted that she withheld for a reason. Denying a spouse love and affection is soul crushing, believe me. It would have been kinder in my case to cut out my heart with a rusty spoon and to this day I struggle with the reasons and all along he knew what they were yet lied about them. Tough stuff and man is it hard sometimes and yes I too thought about cheating....daily.
Did the OP actually say she willingly denied sex or did it fall by the way (waist?) side due to other things?
Neither makes it right, don't get me wrong. My feathers got really ruffled though when it seemed like you and The Oracle were saying it was all her fault. It shocked me as far as manning up. Ownership I believe is at the forefront of that, yes?


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## sexuallyfustrated (Mar 24, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Bright,
> No offence taken. This is difficult stuff. If you ask me why I "desire" my W a lot of it is caused by a behavioral short list:
> - She is difficult mostly but not always in a cute/funny way. Yep - deep sigh - why is that a turn on? No idea. But it is.
> - She is a little bit biicchy - another deep sigh - why is THAT a turn on - no idea
> ...



Hot dang it.....I can understand why you two love one another. Gotta love it.:smthumbup:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Desire*

Bright,
In terms of raw desire each person is typically in one of 3 states at any point in time:
- warm/hot
- neutral
- off (not arousable and averse to sex at that moment)

During most of our marriage she was neutral AND she would let me get her aroused. So rejection was very, very rare. 

And we have an understanding which is that I am not allowed to be off (this is reciprocity for her kindness and consideration in this area). 

If you are really and truly "off" most of the time you need to be straight with your partner. 

She was either neutral and incredibly cruel to keep rejecting him or off and avoided talking about it. 






Therealbrighteyes said:


> Oh it's easy to pinpoint attraction. No question about that. What is difficult for (some) women is to pinpoint lack of attraction. Some just literally wake up one day and **poof** gone. That's why I said I am hesitant to say OP was deceitful unless she posted that she withheld for a reason. Denying a spouse love and affection is soul crushing, believe me. It would have been kinder in my case to cut out my heart with a rusty spoon and to this day I struggle with the reasons and all along he knew what they were yet lied about them. Tough stuff and man is it hard sometimes and yes I too thought about cheating....daily.
> Did the OP actually say she willingly denied sex or did it fall by the way (waist?) side due to other things?
> Neither makes it right, don't get me wrong. My feathers got really ruffled though when it seemed like you and The Oracle were saying it was all her fault. It shocked me as far as manning up. Ownership I believe is at the forefront of that, yes?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

*Re: Desire*



MEM11363 said:


> Bright,
> In terms of raw desire each person is typically in one of 3 states at any point in time:
> - warm/hot
> - neutral
> ...


I get what you are saying. Sometimes I really don't get women at all. Guess I am a one off. Some women literally don't think sex is important because it isn't to them, just as emotional support to women isn't as important to a man because it isn't to them. Both create chasms that are hard to bring back together. 
Having said that, cheating IMO is the worst thing you can do to a relationship. He needs to fully own up to that and take 100% ownership of his choice to cheat. He also needs to man up and deal with the fall out, which I don't think he is. I think her struggles and yes I could be wrong is she now sees a broken man who doesn't have the tools to rebuild. How to fix?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

FWIW, I don't agree that "poof", one day it's gone.

As with most things in life, evidence builds up (one transaction at a time) and one day "poof" - you notice it.

There is a huge interval where it declines.

Sadly, most simply stick their heads up their asses and point fingers.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Ok you two - the debate is over, let the OP take this thread back! I feel like I'm watching Oprah!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

*Re: Desire*



Therealbrighteyes said:


> .... just as emotional support to women isn't as important to a man because it isn't to them.


You could not be more wrong. You are totally and absolutely WRONG.



SOUL MATES/THAT VERY VERY SPECIAL BEST FRIEND support one another in that they have complete and utter empathy and compassion for how the other “FEELS”, what each of them go through, the EMOTIONS they experience as they go through their lives.

Without that *EMOTIONAL RECOGNITION, EMPATHY AND COMPASSION* for how each of them experience their lives in their own unique ways they will be, they are, two ships passing in the night only seeing the lights on deck, NEVER what goes on below decks.



And both of those two ships are *EXTREMELY VULNERABLE* to any other ship that comes along, stops and takes a look inside, below decks. Both of those ships are *EXTREMELY VULNERABLE* to *EMOTIONAL AFFAIRS* that may very well become *PHYSICAL AFFAIRS* as well. Which is probably just what happened in Munchie’s H situation.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Bob,
> Glad you are seeing this for what it is. We can't help Mr. Munchie as he is not with us. As for Ms. Munchie these are my observations.
> 
> For more than a decade she behaved in a sexually deceitful manner. He was over heating the marriage and acting in a weak manner. She refused him sex over and over because she was turned off. Actually I don't blame her for being turned off as most women would have been. I do see her as responsible for being deceitful. But the past is in the past.
> ...


MEM I missed that you were trying to help Munchie RECONCILE with her H. My previous post was to follow on with your help for Munchie in this. I reckon you and I both know just what a massive thing it is that Munchie recognises, accepts, appreciates and ACKNOWLEDGES her H’s EMOTIONS. Because THE WAY HE FEELS ABOUT THINGS is what makes him the UNIQUE MAN he is.

It’s quite difficult to explain these things. If Munchie does not do the above, her H WILL BELIEVE THAT HIS WIFE DOES NOT KNOW HIM. THAT HE IS INVISIBLE TO HER. That she will never know HIS TRUTH.




Munchie. You do need to go through a TRUTH PROCESS. Both of you NEED TO SPEAK YOUR TRUTHS. You have both been deceiving and lying to one another for such a very long time. For so long it has become HABITUAL.

To speak your truths to one another you are going to have to make yourself more vulnerable than you have ever been in your entire life. And both of you may well have boundaries/barriers to protect and make you INVULNERABLE that you aren’t even aware of.

But without speaking your innermost truths, without speaking of all those secret thoughts, desires and passions that you’ve been hiding away from one another you will be like two ships passing in the night. All you will ever see is the lights on deck. You will NEVER SEE let alone UNDERSTAND and FEEL what’s going on below decks inside the ships.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> Ok you two - the debate is over, let the OP take this thread back! I feel like I'm watching Oprah!


The OP has been very very silent.

I fear she's given up the ship.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Wow. Too many triggers here of my pathetic past as a Nice Guy.

I'm going to start calling myself Mr. Munchie (minus the affair part).

Oh well. It's good to take a look back to see where you've been once in a while.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

The OP couldn't get a post in edgewise!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lazarus (Jan 17, 2011)

munchie said:


> I told him that I forgive him for what happened, what's done is done and that he needs to put it in the past and start moving forward. I'm not sure what I do next.



Mistake No. 1. You don't immediately forgive someone who chose to put your life at risk. 

What to do next? 

Let him go. 
Prepare for Divorce - you can always stop it if you want.
Make yourself happy even although its very hard. Work on you. He's been working on himself with OW.
You are being too accommodating. He isn't doing the heavy lifting.

20 years married. What did he do to make you lose interest in him sexually? There had to be a trigger. You don't just switch off unless for health reasons. There is a post which if one can read between the lines, explains why so many men destroy their Wife's love for them. 

Maybe this happened to you? 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-hope-fading-its-long-long-post-but-read.html

Lawyer meeting with OW? No! You may have to cover yourself by writing a letter to say that you are clearly against any such meeting.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> The OP couldn't get a post in edgewise!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Silence speaks volumes.


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