# The Struggle With My Wife's Past



## Orochi (Apr 28, 2014)

Hello all! N00b here.  I ran across this thread on a Google search and it touched me deeply. I left a quick comment there and have more to say, but I felt like it would be more appropriate to start a new thread with my thoughts than to resurrect that zombie thread. 

I don't want to "hide" this from my wife so much as "spare her feelings". We are very open in our communication with each other, but I fear that some of the things that I will share here would be quite hurtful to her. I love my wife more than my own existence and only want her to be happy and to be happy with her. That's probably what makes this so extremely difficult. So anyway...

When I was young, I was taught that I should save myself for marriage. Somewhere I read that women resent men wanting to marry a virgin after sowing their wild oats. So, at an early age I made a commitment to wait for the right woman and to wait for marriage. Frankly, I worked hard at it. I don't mean to brag so much as to illustrate the lengths that I went to here. I turned down so many opportunities. I deliberately stopped heated physical progression with girlfriends. I turned down booty calls from lots of pretty girls. I passed on opportunities for at least two threesomes. One time overseas, I spent the night in a hotel room with two beautiful girls who were naked and ready to go. One of them was a virgin even. But that night, I treated them like ladies. I put on my headphones, turned my head, and slept instead of indulging in their carnal invitations. I prayed that there was a girl out there who was going to the same trouble to keep herself pure for me. I had nightmares that she was not; literally, cold sweat, jolting upright in the middle of the night, terrors. What if while I was going to bed alone, frustrated, and looking forward to a better life, what if she, whoever she was, was out there getting filled up with other mens' seed?

In college, suffice it to say that I noticed Phoenix. We spent quite a bit of time in the same buildings on the campus, so even though we didn't know each other, we saw each other in passing. To me, she was 'The Pretty Girl With The Legs.' When I met her, I had been going out with a different girl for a couple years at the time, and was very much not on the market, much to Phoenix's chagrin. Said girlfriend at the time was a very immature 17-year-old, but I thought she was The One. Even so, she (the now ex) and I had adhered to the commitment to not engage in sex until after we had exchanged vows in front of God and man. As an aside, I would be shocked to learn that she has ever really grown up mentally and emotionally. My grades were good and my SAT scores were high. I could have gotten a music and wrestling scholarship to any university of my choice, but went to an in state for college for her (the ex). I considered joining the military, and had recruiters tripping all over themselves to get me to sign the dotted line, but I didn't enlist because of the ex. Her parents hated me, and to this day I still can't figure out why. I was a sophomore in college when she decided that she needed a 'trial break' as if that makes any sense at all. At the end of a teenful angsty week, she informed me that she wanted to make it a permanent break up. I never regretted the break up and have avoided her ever since.

I was hanging out with my friend Olivia in the hall, seeking solace. She was a mutual friend with the recent ex. To my surprise, she was also friends with The Pretty Girl With The Legs. As I was moping around with her, The Pretty Girl With The Legs approached and started talking with Olivia about some class that they had in common. As they reached the close of their brief interchange, she turned to me and said, "and I'm going to give YOU a hug." At which point, she delivered on her word. As we moved on, I asked Olivia if I really looked so pathetically sad that strangers wanted to stop me to hug me. She guffawed and told me that Phoenix didn't think that I looked pathetic, but wanted to hug me because she thought I was hot. It seemed apparent to me that this girl was trouble. I decided that the best course of action was to get to know her a little better, keep the enemy close, if you will. We've basically been inseparable since then.

Phoenix is the only person I've ever known who really gets me. I've never had to explain my humor or the way my brain is working. It's almost like our minds are isometrics. After hanging out with her a few times, it was pretty clear that I was in deeper than I intended to be. She made no secret of her previous promiscuity, and it was pretty obvious to me that she had been sexually abused when she was younger (confirmed since). Our first kiss happened early and things quickly became physical after that, although we didn't go 'all the way' yet. I told her in no uncertain terms that if we were to have a real relationship that I was not to be part of her collection of boyfriends, and that it had to be completely exclusive. She agreed to this condition. She pursued me aggressively, constantly pushing me harder for more intimate relations.

[redacted]

**edited to hopefully clarify. Sorry for being ranty.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

I'm confused. Is Phoenix your wife? And what exactly is your question? :scratchhead:


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## Orochi (Apr 28, 2014)

Yes, you may believe that my wife's name is Phoenix. Not so much a question as expression. I just have to get some stuff off my chest one way or another.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Orochi said:


> Not so much a question as expression. I just have to get some stuff off my chest one way or another.


Okay, I see. Well you've come to a good place to get things off your chest.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

OP, we need cliff notes. You get into way too much detail and your story jumps around way too much for us to understand it clearly.

Can you be little more specific about the issue at hand and what you concern is?

PS. Bravo for staying away from sex that long and under so much pressure. It really must take a strong person to be able to do that. I applaud you for it!


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## Orochi (Apr 28, 2014)

Sorry DoF. When this started spilling out, I had a really hard time organizing my thoughts. At its most basic my issue is this:

She was my first. I was very much not her first, and she won't let me forget it. Even though she knows it pains me to hear her revisit her past, she still mentions her previous exploits. Every time I think that we can let the past go and just be us, she'll bring it back up and all my nasty thoughts and feelings come flooding back. I saw others expressing jealousy of their spouses' past here and it's been quite cathartic. I thought I'd give it a go and see if that helped me deal with my feelings.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

If she is doing it deliberately to hurt you, of to exercise some power over you, then it is wrong. It is disrespectful and wrong. 

Did she sleep around with other men while you two were separated?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Here is that I would do/recommend.

New boundary - no more discussion, referencing or hinting about past relationships.

Simply tell her it's hurtful and I don't see why she would want to make her loved one feel this way.

Once the boundary is established it's up to YOU to enforce it. Make sure she doesn't break it, and when she does, have something ready as a consequence/punishment. 

And hope it doesn't get that far....

In general, I never EVER recommend asking or discussing past relationship with ANYONE (for both man and woman).

It's unhealthy, disrespectful and inappropriate. Don't do it AT ALL.

I used to be just like you and dwell on it as well. But as I matured I realized I should've never a) asked my wife b) she should've never shared that info.

At least she never threw it in my face, that would be messed up.

Anyways, as I matured I realized that what happened before me is completely irrelevant to our relationship. It has 0 meaning. Once I set my mind to above and followed it, her past relationships had 0 meaning to me and over time I learned to simply ignored it.

I was basically fighting my own demons....my own mind.....thankfully I won.

I hope you win as well. Don't worry about any of that crap....


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## Orochi (Apr 28, 2014)

> Bravo for staying away from sex that long and under so much pressure. It really must take a strong person to be able to do that. I applaud you for it!


Thank you. That means more than you could possibly know.



> If she is doing it deliberately to hurt you, of to exercise some power over you, then it is wrong. It is disrespectful and wrong.


I agree. I have no idea why she ever did this. I don't know if she's trying to hurt me or exercise power over me.



> Did she sleep around with other men while you two were separated?


Sorry. I was unclear in my OP. To clarify, we've never been separated. Since we met in school, we've never been apart.



> Simply tell her it's hurtful and I don't see why she would want to make her loved one feel this way.


Been there done that. Every time I think we're over it, it comes up again some way or another. It's now been about eight months since the last time she dragged it up.



> In general, I never EVER recommend asking or discussing past relationship with ANYONE (for both man and woman).
> 
> It's unhealthy, disrespectful and inappropriate. Don't do it AT ALL.


I agree completely.



> I was basically fighting my own demons....my own mind.....thankfully I won.
> 
> I hope you win as well. Don't worry about any of that crap....


It's testimonies like this that give me hope. Thank you.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Give an example of how she brings up this subject of men she had sex with in the past.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Well my PoV is a little different than some of the other posters. You had a very specific value, one that you took quite a lot of effort to keep. You wanted that same value to be important to your spouse. But instead you married someone who DOESN'T share that value with you. And you want her to squelch who she is and how she has lived to accommodate you. That is just not fair. To either of you.

Each of us are shaped by our past. Now if she is being mean, that is another matter. I would never be able to trust someone, or be truly intimate with someone with whom I had to hide myself.

So I suggest you go back to the beginning. When you married her, you were accepting who she is. Can you still do that? Because simply ignoring the truth does not change it. She is the same person.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Anytime OP. Glad I was able to help!

Seems like you have 2 things to address OP.

a) your own demons (trust me, you will get over this, try not to think about it and KEEP reminding yourself about what I said). In time, it WILL get better.

b) your wife throwing it in your face. This has to stop. Make it a boundary and watch her like a hawk.

I also think it will go a LONG way once you address #1 and simply ignore her completely when she bring it up. Show it to her that you don't give a ****....doesn't effect you. I have a feeling the reason she does this is to get a reaction out of you (she knows she will get you pissed).

Regardless, in time, she has to stop this or it will become a much bigger issue/possibly a deal breaker.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

OP, this sounds something like my hb used to be. Given that we're each on our second marriage and both had kids clearly neither was a virgin, but my hb persisted in sharing the most ridiculously inappropriate details even after I'd made clear I didn't like it. Yet he never asked about mine, leading me to think it wasn't about intimate sharing but of power. That's why I think there are parallels with you. I suspect your wife is using this as leverage to hold the emotional power in the relationship. I recommend you stop reacting to it completely and next time she shares get up and walk away mid sentence; it's now a power issue and you need to balance it. I also told my hb that next time he brought something up I would get him a cookie and leave (I said a lot more to him but you might not want you go where I did); you could always tell her that it's not a big deal to get men to f$ck you if you'll spread your legs, but if you don't want to go there just get up and walk away. Stop reacting to her. The reaction you're giving her is exactly what she's looking for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

You said at some point she broke up with you. During the time you were apart was she sleeping around?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You can go back to your first post and edit it to make clear who the characters were and turned out to be.

Your wife Phoenix loves you, but is not an entirely stable character. She is impulsive, as your initial meeting suggests. She is certainly not diplomatic since she will irritate you by bragging about her sexual exploits.

With such a wife, you must be strong. You must let her know what the boundaries are. Make sure you stay in good physical shape and do things to keep her chasing you. Don't give her a steady diet of flowers, chocolate and compliments. You need to mix it up with her.


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## Orochi (Apr 28, 2014)

> Give an example of how she brings up this subject of men she had sex with in the past.


One time, she started telling me that she had once faked if for a guy. I told her that I didn't want to hear about it but she continued. She said I knew him. I told her I didn't want to know who it was. She blurted out his name, someone that we were mutually friends with in college. I deflated. I didn't need to know that. She instantly went into, "I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry," but sorrow was not in her tone or attitude. She told me that he wasn't any good the first time, but she slept with him again, and he wasn't any good the second time either. When I asked her why the hell she would sleep with him a second time in that case, she said that she had been heavily medicated and he took advantage of her. I spent the next twelve years errantly thinking that he had raped her, and I hated him for it from the pit of my soul. She told me that she'd never had sex with a married man. She told me that she'd never cheated on a boyfriend. She told me lots of things.

NobodySpecial - Kind of harsh, but I'm not sure you're wrong. 

bandit.45 - I can see how you would get that message, but I just wasn't clear. It was my ex who broke up with me in my disjointed ranting. That's when I met my wife. She was sleeping around up until I came along. 



> you could always tell her that it's not a big deal to get men to f$ck you if you'll spread your legs


There was a conversation in which I said something not unlike this. I regretted my harshness, there were tears shed. I will say that the problem improved significantly from that point.


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## Orochi (Apr 28, 2014)

> You can go back to your first post and edit it to make clear who the characters were and turned out to be.


Yeah. I may have to do that. Or scrap the whole thing and start over. 



> Your wife Phoenix loves you, but is not an entirely stable character. She is impulsive, as your initial meeting suggests. She is certainly not diplomatic since she will irritate you by bragging about her sexual exploits.


She's kind of crazy, but she's generally my brand of crazy.



> With such a wife, you must be strong. You must let her know what the boundaries are. Make sure you stay in good physical shape and do things to keep her chasing you. Don't give her a steady diet of flowers, chocolate and compliments. You need to mix it up with her.


 You've got her to a T!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Orochi said:


> NobodySpecial - Kind of harsh, but I'm not sure you're wrong.


Sorry. I was not not trying to be harsh.


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## Orochi (Apr 28, 2014)

I should also probably clarify that I love my wife more now than ever before. I loved her from the very beginning, and we've grown so close over the years. 99.9% of the time, we get along famously. We have friends who have gotten married to each other and then confessed to us that they "based their marriage" on ours. 

She has long known that this issue hurts me and in fairness she has gotten progressively better about it. I just want to get over this like some of you have already, so we can get the best out of our marriage. Life's too short for anything else.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Orochi said:


> I should also probably clarify that I love my wife more now than ever before. I loved her from the very beginning, and we've grown so close over the years. 99.9% of the time, we get along famously. We have friends who have gotten married to each other and then confessed to us that they "based their marriage" on ours.
> 
> She has long known that this issue hurts me and in fairness she has gotten progressively better about it. I just want to get over this like some of you have already, so we can get the best out of our marriage. Life's too short for anything else.


It won't happen overnight and will require some "thought control" on your part.

You basically have to change your thinking all together. Think "I don't care about what she has done before she was with me" whenever any of those crazy thoughts enter your brain.

in time, those thoughts will no long enter your brain. And in time, as you ignore your wife on the subject....she won't speak of this thing either (just make sure you ignore her on it, just walk away/brush it off your shoulder).

This is a minor relationship issue. Nothing to worry about, really. And everything you feel is completely natural for young/male (again, I've been there)


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Orochi said:


> One time, she started telling me that she had once faked if for a guy. I told her that I didn't want to hear about it but she continued. She said I knew him. I told her I didn't want to know who it was. She blurted out his name, someone that we were mutually friends with in college. I deflated. I didn't need to know that. She instantly went into, "I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry," but sorrow was not in her tone or attitude. She told me that he wasn't any good the first time, but she slept with him again, and he wasn't any good the second time either. When I asked her why the hell she would sleep with him a second time in that case, she said that she had been heavily medicated and he took advantage of her. I spent the next twelve years errantly thinking that he had raped her, and I hated him for it from the pit of my soul. She told me that she'd never had sex with a married man. She told me that she'd never cheated on a boyfriend. She told me lots of things.
> 
> NobodySpecial - Kind of harsh, but I'm not sure you're wrong.
> 
> ...



See I don't think you should regret your harshness. I get that you love her and don't want to hurt her but she has shown that this is not reciprocated. You repeatedly asked her to stop and she ignored you, then cried about how she was sorry. The fact was that she wasn't sorry, she really wanted you to know to keep that power balance. I don't see why she should be blatantly rude to you but you have to tiptoe around her feelings. When I blew up at my hb I asked him if he wanted to know all about the huge c0ck that was my first; clearly he didn't, he just wanted to throw lots of stuff in my face. In the end I told him bluntly that men who instist on sharing unwanted details are insecure and pathetic, nobody cares, and the next time it came up I would get him his cookie. That was almost 3 years ago and he hasn't uttered a peep about it, but that's why I said you might not want to go where I went.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> See I don't think you should regret your harshness. I get that you love her and don't want to hurt her but she has shown that this is not reciprocated. You repeatedly asked her to stop and she ignored you, then cried about how she was sorry. The fact was that she wasn't sorry, she really wanted you to know to keep that power balance. I don't see why she should be blatantly rude to you but you have to tiptoe around her feelings. *When I blew up at my hb I asked him if he wanted to know all about the huge c0ck that was my firs*t; clearly he didn't, he just wanted to throw lots of stuff in my face. In the end I told him bluntly that men who instist on sharing unwanted details are insecure and pathetic, nobody cares, and the next time it came up I would get him his cookie. That was almost 3 years ago and he hasn't uttered a peep about it, but that's why I said you might not want to go where I went.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl:

That's great.....I can see your husband's face when you told him that now.


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## Orochi (Apr 28, 2014)

You're fine. There's this thing that we do from time to time. When one or the other of us says "I love you," the other will say, "why?" Then we think of something nice to say to the other one that we find endearing. This weekend, she popped the "why" on me. I told her, "no reason whatsoever. I love you unconditionally." She seemed to appreciate that.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> The fact was that she wasn't sorry, she really wanted you to know to keep that *power balance*.


It _might_ be. But it also might be a test. Knowing that she does not fit his value bill, she might be trying to uncover (unconsciously) can you/do you still love me despite my past and/or different value ideals.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> It _might_ be. But it also might be a test. Knowing that she does not fit his value bill, she might be trying to uncover (unconsciously) can you/do you still love me despite my past and/or different value ideals.


If it is it's a crappy test. He can take care of that by sitting her down and assuring her that he loves her and everything that made her who she is, but he's not interested in details. If she can't respect that it'll tell him a lot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

It's pretty well known around here the issues my STBW and I have had regarding her past. We have been working through things pretty well, and has been said before, time is the only thing that helps...with one caveat...

She has to be willing to work with you on this, and she needs to learn to leave the past in the past. She needs to understand that every time something is brought up, that it is no longer the past, but is now the present.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

DoF said:


> :rofl:
> 
> That's great.....I can see your husband's face when you told him that now.


Ha ha, yeah I think he saw I side of me he didn't realize was there. He knows it now.....the irony is that the guy with the huge c0ck wasn't half the man my husband is, but I wasn't going to tell him that. Maybe that's really the statement that put a stop to the unwanted sharing 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Orochi said:


> Sorry DoF. When this started spilling out, I had a really hard time organizing my thoughts. At its most basic my issue is this:
> 
> She was my first. I was very much not her first, and she won't let me forget it. Even though she knows it pains me to hear her revisit her past, she still mentions her previous exploits. Every time I think that we can let the past go and just be us, she'll bring it back up and all my nasty thoughts and feelings come flooding back. I saw others expressing jealousy of their spouses' past here and it's been quite cathartic. I thought I'd give it a go and see if that helped me deal with my feelings.


In what ways does she generally mention her past exploits?

In what context?

Give us an example.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Orochi said:


> She told me that she'd never had sex with a married man. She told me that she'd never cheated on a boyfriend.


These kinds of things can be important to know about a spouse. I can understand not wanting details and names and things like your first example but she shouldn't have to avoid ever saying anything that suggests she has had sex before.


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## Orochi (Apr 28, 2014)

> These kinds of things can be important to know about a spouse.


So true. I didn't mean it like that. I just got tangential.


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## OptimisticPessimist (Jul 26, 2010)

Orochi said:


> ...I will say that the problem improved significantly from that point.


Thats because you stood up to her. Women respect men who tell it like it is regardless of social cost- it shows courage, confidence, and fidelity to inner-character.

I am going to be frank: it sounds to me like you are on the cusp of f*cking up a truly rare "right for each other relationship". While no relationship is without trial, few can make make a chaste man immediately accept a "bad girl" unless there is chemistry flying in SPADES; you have a gold mine here. Dont f*ck it up by failing her tests! She was a wild child, and you ACCEPTED that past when you married her- her past is part of WHO SHE IS and you CANNOT selectively determine which aspects of her former character you will entertain. "The past is the foundation I stand on in the present to face the future." -GEU You can set boundaries (as you have) for what sexual relations you will accept in marriage, but to expect silence on her sexual past is to implicitly shame her character AND demonstrate your own insecurity. Again, failing these tests COSTS you social status in her eyes; her tests determine your value.

What are these tests you ask? When she mentions sex with other men, she knows damn well you dont like it, but its a test she must do; she probably feels guilty saying it, but she absolutely cant help it- it is part and parcel with a woman's instinct to TEST the confidence of a man (which implicitly informs her of his capacity to effect change in his environment), and thereby make generalizations about his genetic and ideological value relative to potential mates which surround. Other tests might be designed to see if she can get you to "submit" to her emotion, or to see if she can make you "feel" negative at all. Of course, the ideal response varies depending on the woman. 

You need to approach this with confidence. It sounds to me like this woman fell as hard for you as you did for her- a woman who many men wanted/want, a woman who makes you- a chaste man with tons of class and obviously intelligent- feel FIRE in your soul, wants YOU. You've got it made! So kick back, let your cohones drop, and let the ****y YOU flow- the result will only be MORE desire from her. Dont let petty insecurities destroy what many people never find!

At any given time a woman is judging a man she is with for both his positive and negative attributes. 

Positive attributes include:
1) The ability in which the man has access to the manner in which mankind manipulates energy for his benefit, also known as his ability to maintain a favorable environment.
2) Confidence (which implicitly suggests #1 is a likely attribute)
3) Genetic (the chemistry that flew between you both resulted from subconscious electrochemical responses resulting from interpretations of genetic traits by the senses [as interpreted by the mind])

Negative attributes include:
1) Insecurity (if one allows others to make him feel less valuable, that means others have POWER over him, and thus such a trait is considered unattractive). 
2) Inability to have access to the manner in which mankind manipulates energy for his benefit, otherwise known as a non-favorable relationship to ones environment (whens the last time you saw women go looking for boyfriends at a nuthouse? The idea is revolting to them because nuts lack a favorable relationship to their environment...). One might lack this ability if they possess low intelligence, health problems prohibiting mastery of job skill, etc...
3) Genetic (Asymmetric bodily features, poor teeth, poor hygiene, etc) 

As long as the net result of comparing these negative and positive attributes is significantly positive, she will feel significantly for you. Broke even? Indifference without passion or hostility. Once the net result is negative? Get ready, because all hell is about to break loose...

I apologize for my lengthy response and if it in any way seemed condescending or critical (it wasnt meant to be). I have much respect for your ability to remain chaste in the face of lust that most people would absolutely fold to, and I dont in any way think you are stupid, weak, etc. In order for someone to HEAR what you wish to say, you often must bring the message with fervor and zeal- feeling motivates us to DO something, while action (or logical response) acts to create, sustain, or destroy the basis for a feeling. This post is an attempt at driving home a message of confidence. Good luck brotha'! :smthumbup: You got a winner :smthumbup::smthumbup:


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Ha ha, yeah I think he saw I side of me he didn't realize was there. He knows it now.....the irony is that the guy with the huge c0ck wasn't half the man my husband is, but I wasn't going to tell him that. Maybe that's really the statement that put a stop to the unwanted sharing
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You bet your ass it is!


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## devotion (Oct 8, 2012)

Your issues are tough, OP. I don't know if I could handle it myself because I also know I'm a jealous type. My GF and my sexual history is exactly the same length but I can't help but be jealous. She doesn't ask but if I get drunk enough I will -- I'm learning to keep my damn mouth shut and tell my brain to stop trying to compare myself because it doesn't matter. 

I guess all I'm saying is its ok to feel the way you are feeling, especially when its imbalanced, because I feel that way even though its perfectly balanced. Its insane but we can't help how we feel. We can help how we act though, and I believe your wife is doing no favors by bringing it up even after you told her it hurts you. 

Maybe try to communicate clearly that you understand that she has a very vivid past but that's in the past and you are now her present and future? Again, I'm lucky that I am the only idiot that brings it up in my relationship.. I can only imagine how I'd feel if SHE brought past lovers up.


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## Orochi (Apr 28, 2014)

I feel like I've gotten some good advice from the lot of you, and I can't believe how much positive response you've given in just one day.  I know that the problem is mostly with me at this point. 

OptimisticPessimist - You read me right; we do have lots and lots of chemistry. I mostly want to get over this so we can be at our best, because I don't want to f**k it up. It's not like it comes up every day, and we do have a great time together, but this is always in the back of my mind, gnawing away at me and I'm sick of it. 

For many years, I felt so alone. Just reading that there are other men out there that have issues with their wives' history makes the whole thing seem so much more palatable. That is in no way to discount the ladies in a similar situation (loving the input from lifeistooshort), but it's just particularly nice to have fellow men to relate to on this hang up. We've been together for 16 years, and I'm finally starting to feel like there's a way to move forward to a better place in the relationship.



> If it is it's a crappy test. He can take care of that by sitting her down and assuring her that he loves her and everything that made her who she is, but he's not interested in details. If she can't respect that it'll tell him a lot.


I never thought about it in terms of being a test. I always thought that it was her subconsciously pushing me away out of feelings of guilt. She's straight up told me at one time or another that she doesn't feel like she deserves me.

Wait a minute. 

:scratchhead:

Could it be that my retroactive jealousy itself has caused her to feel shame and lack of worth that she's acted out against with the tales of her wilder times? Thoughts? The very thought is making me feel like a heel.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Orochi said:


> Wait a minute.
> 
> :scratchhead:
> 
> Could it be that my retroactive jealousy itself has caused her to feel shame and lack of worth that she's acted out against with the tales of her wilder times? Thoughts? The very thought is making me feel like a heel.


Yes. This is very possible. She is testing how much you value her. Likely not even consciously.


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## Orochi (Apr 28, 2014)

> Yes. This is very possible. She is testing how much you value her. Likely not even consciously.


That would explain a WORLDS of behavior that I haven't bothered to mention here for the sake of brevity. On the one hand, it seems so stupidly obvious that I can't believe it hadn't occurred to me before. :slap: However, I haven't been able to objectively talk it out with anyone before. _Big thanks to all of you for this._ It's sometimes hard to recognize the obvious when... *gulp* ...focused on your own pain. And, if that's what I'm dealing with here, I've violated a cardinal rule of marriage myself. As crappy as that makes me feel, there are actions that I can take to correct it. I only wish I'd been chatting with you guys and gals about fifteen years ago.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Orochi said:


> That would explain a WORLDS of behavior that I haven't bothered to mention here for the sake of brevity. On the one hand, it seems so stupidly obvious that I can't believe it hadn't occurred to me before. :slap: However, I haven't been able to objectively talk it out with anyone before. _Big thanks to all of you for this._ It's sometimes hard to recognize the obvious when... *gulp* ...focused on your own pain. And, if that's what I'm dealing with here, I've violated a cardinal rule of marriage myself. As crappy as that makes me feel, there are actions that I can take to correct it. I only wish I'd been chatting with you guys and gals about fifteen years ago.


Geezum crow, you are doing a whole hell of a lot better at taking advice then when I was looking for marriage advice a few years back. Good on you.

Food for thought. There will be helpful info in the men's clubhouse about fitness tests, the good, the bad and the ugly. Likely a lot of chafe to wade through too, but the wheat is there.

Keep that chin up. It sounds like you love the heck out of your wife and she loves you right back. Go Mr and Mrs Orochi!


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## OptimisticPessimist (Jul 26, 2010)

Orochi said:


> I feel like I've gotten some good advice from the lot of you, and I can't believe how much positive response you've given in just one day.  I know that the problem is mostly with me at this point.
> 
> OptimisticPessimist - You read me right; we do have lots and lots of chemistry. I mostly want to get over this so we can be at our best, because I don't want to f**k it up. It's not like it comes up every day, and we do have a great time together, but this is always in the back of my mind, gnawing away at me and I'm sick of it.
> 
> ...


Insecurity sucks. Yes, if she values you as a man, your issues with her past can make her feel guilt/shame.

Think of it this way- if a man you dont have much respect for tells you "youre stupid," you are likely to just blow it off without a second thought. If Albert Einstein called you stupid, you would definitely feel far more insecure. Likewise, your wife has a respect for you, and if you look down upon her sexual past, she will feel shame as a result. If you want to make your wife happier, then stop with the implicit shaming.

At the same time, she still "tests" you with this topic because it is one way she sees insecurity in you. A woman ALWAYS has an idea of her man's confidence level (among other things). Being in a good marriage after 16 years with no infidelity and strong feelings still? Apparently the chemistry is strong, you are doing a number of things right, and the good outweighs the bad in her subconscious parsing of your value.

These feelings of insecurity stem from the darkside of male behavior in my opinion. Consider marriage; what is marriage? Traditionally, marriage was a contract of slavery- the father passed ownership of the woman off to the groom who used her for caretaking and sexual reproduction. This is why the father walks the daughter down the aisle, dowrys were paid, the woman takes the grooms last name, etc. 

Of course, we have reframed marriage in a modern context- it now is governed not by the idea of ownership, but by the idea of "love". "Love" is a lingual label describing an electrochemical state of the mind whereby the presence of another causes the secretion of neurochemicals such as dopamine, glutamate, oxytocin, etc; love is a _feeling_ that helps us understand the postive value of someone else in our environment, and provides us with the incentive to perform actions that grow, protect, and defend the person that we "love."

I must have sat here 10 minutes trying to understand WHY it bothers men when a woman has had many sexual partners (or more than him), but I honestly just dont understand. Can you explain it to me exactly?

Im sure your d*ck doesnt mind her experience when she flexes her skill (figuratively and literally speaking, pun intended). Im sure its attractive when she gives you the look and starts undressing with a look that says "im going to cripple you with pleasure"- trust me man, almost ALL of us guys appreciate these sort of things with women, including you im sure. Do you have any good reason to have an issue with her former promiscuity... especially when- DUDE- she dropped it ALL to spend 16 years with YOU!


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## Thunder7 (Jan 2, 2013)

OptimisticPessimist said:


> Insecurity sucks. Yes, if she values you as a man, your issues with her past can make her feel guilt/shame.
> 
> Think of it this way- if a man you dont have much respect for tells you "youre stupid," you are likely to just blow it off without a second thought. If Albert Einstein called you stupid, you would definitely feel far more insecure. Likewise, your wife has a respect for you, and if you look down upon her sexual past, she will feel shame as a result. If you want to make your wife happier, then stop with the implicit shaming.
> 
> ...


Can't believe I'm wading into this RJ nest. OP, you make some good points in this post. However, I will focus on the paragraph in bold. WHY. I think part of it has to do with value. A lot of people view sex as something to be valued. It is the glue in a relationship. Couples who are very close can look at sex as a way of sharing intimacy and a way to bring themselves closer together. So, let's say I view the act of sex with my SO as something extremely special. My thought process, as someone who deals with RJ, is that if my SO was out banging away before we met, that devalues what we have together. Why is sex special if she was out giving it away to whomever before she met me. It obviously had no value then, so why should I think it has value now. And if IT has no value, I have no value, WE have no value. I'm not special. We're not special. Do you see where I'm going with this? 

RJ has been described as a form of OCD. With OCD there is very little logical thought. That little scenario I type above is how the unchecked OCD mind works. And once it starts going it's usually a downward spiral. Just trying to give you a little glimpse.


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## Orochi (Apr 28, 2014)

> So, let's say I view the act of sex with my SO as something extremely special. My thought process, as someone who deals with RJ, is that if my SO was out banging away before we met, that devalues what we have together. Why is sex special if she was out giving it away to whomever before she met me. It obviously had no value then, so why should I think it has value now. And if IT has no value, I have no value, WE have no value. *I'm not special.* We're not special. Do you see where I'm going with this?


This. I couldn't have articulated it so well. When she talks about her previous experiences, the message I hear is, "you aren't special Orochi," with a generous dash of, "your efforts to keep yourself pure for me were pointless and you weren't worth waiting for." I consciously know that's not true nor intended. It sure helps to talk it out with a third party. Thank you again.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Orochi said:


> This. I couldn't have articulated it so well. When she talks about her previous experiences, the message I hear is, "you aren't special Orochi," with a generous dash of, "your efforts to keep yourself pure for me were pointless and you weren't worth waiting for." I consciously know that's not true nor intended. It sure helps to talk it out with a third party. Thank you again.


Bear in mind, some of us don't value effort to remain pure, purity itself and saving as worthwhile. That is a pretty big gap to bridge.


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

I believe my RJ stems completely from insecurity and the need to be the absolute best she's ever had in every way. When it's active, I can't imagine that she isn't settling for me. There's just no way I'm the best choice. At least that's what the dragon tells me. Therefore, less past means less competition.


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## Thunder7 (Jan 2, 2013)

Orochi said:


> I consciously know that's not true nor intended.


Exactly. And unless she is deliberately trying to hurt your feelings she really has no idea what's going on between your ears. My advice is this is not a topic with which you should be confrontational about. This is your issue to deal with, not hers. Unless, as I said, she is using it to hurt you. That changes things quite a bit. Just try to keep in mind that this wasn't something that prevented you from marrying her in the first place, so it shouldn't be a deal breaker or a huge stumbling block now. But, she really does need to stop reminiscing aloud to you. We all have private thoughts. But we need to learn when those thoughts should actually come out of your mouth. I hear songs all the time that remind me of past girlfriends. Do I point it out to my wife? Hell no. Because I respect her too much. 

Hope this helps. All I can say is when I first saw your new thread this morning all I could think was , 'Oh, great. Another RJ thread'. It affects more people than you know.


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

Thunder7 said:


> Exactly. And unless she is deliberately trying to hurt your feelings she really has no idea what's going on between your ears. My advice is this is not a topic with which you should be confrontational about. This is your issue to deal with, not hers. Unless, as I said, she is using it to hurt you. That changes things quite a bit. Just try to keep in mind that this wasn't something that prevented you from marrying her in the first place, so it shouldn't be a deal breaker or a huge stumbling block now. But, she really does need to stop reminiscing aloud to you. We all have private thoughts. But we need to learn when those thoughts should actually come out of your mouth. * I hear songs all the time that remind me of past girlfriends.* Do I point it out to my wife? Hell no. Because I respect her too much.
> 
> Hope this helps. All I can say is when I first saw your new thread this morning all I could think was , *'Oh, great. Another RJ thread'*. It affects more people than you know.


First part: If I have any thoughts about past girlfriends they are fleeting and have no emotion attached. I wonder if she feels the same way, especially when it's a song about lost love or some such.

Second part: Yep. And I resisted coming in for so long because I didn't want to trigger. But, as always curiousity killed the cat. No triggers though!! :smthumbup:


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Would you have wanted to sleep with more women if you think it helps your wife's attraction to you?

Or would you if you realize she would respect you more if she knew you slept with a lot of women?


From what I've observed and seen, women seem to be more attracted to guys with sexual partner count. So the theory goes- the fact that her lover will have many other options if she leaves him makes them work extra hard at the relationship.


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## Thunder7 (Jan 2, 2013)

I Don't Know said:


> First part: If I have any thoughts about past girlfriends they are fleeting and have no emotion attached. I wonder if she feels the same way, especially when it's a song about lost love or some such.
> 
> Second part: Yep. And I resisted coming in for so long because I didn't want to trigger. But, as always curiousity killed the cat. No triggers though!! :smthumbup:


Exactly, on both points!! First, I know I have no emotion attached when I think about the past. I have no way of knowing what someone else is thinking. Secondly, like a friggin' moth to a flame. I know what you mean. :scratchhead:


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Orochi said:


> This. I couldn't have articulated it so well. When she talks about her previous experiences, the message I hear is, "you aren't special Orochi," with a generous dash of, "your efforts to keep yourself pure for me were pointless and you weren't worth waiting for." I consciously know that's not true nor intended. It sure helps to talk it out with a third party. Thank you again.




For me it wasn't even that my hb had an extensive past, though I will admit it violates my value system. I have been able to let it go and I am satisfied that i'm extremely special to him.....but when he'd constantly bring it up, esp at really inappropriate times, it made me feel like he thought an awful lot about exes and wasn't living in the here and now. That made me feel extremely UN-special (not a real word-sorry); it's a lot of intimate time thinking about exes and not us. Made me feel like one in a long line...not sexy and not good for bonding.

Maybe this is an issue for you? The fact that she insists on talking about it suggests her mind is still there and not all in the present with you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Orochi (Apr 28, 2014)

> Bear in mind, some of us don't value effort to remain pure, purity itself and saving as worthwhile. That is a pretty big gap to bridge.


True that values can be subjective, but that isn't exactly the case here. It's not that she had a radically different set of values than I did. Her religious background and basic ethics were fairly comparable to mine. In other words, she _knew_ what she was doing was "wrong." Of course, that can't help anything either.



> And unless she is deliberately trying to hurt your feelings she really has no idea what's going on between your ears. My advice is this is not a topic with which you should be confrontational about.


There was a point in time that I believe she was being deliberately hurtful, but that's been years ago. There have been times that we had our confrontations over it, for better or for worse as a mixed bag, but I agree that the usefulness of confrontation is over if it was ever useful in the past. 



> Just try to keep in mind that this wasn't something that prevented you from marrying her in the first place, so it shouldn't be a deal breaker or a huge stumbling block now.


Yeah. I didn't think that it would be such a stumbling block back then. Definitely not a deal breaker, though.



> But, she really does need to stop reminiscing aloud to you. We all have private thoughts. But we need to learn when those thoughts should actually come out of your mouth.


She says she "has no filter." The last time I heard her say that I very calmly and kindly correcter her saying, "yes you do dear. You just often choose not to use it." That went over far better than you might imagine.



> All I can say is when I first saw your new thread this morning all I could think was , 'Oh, great. Another RJ thread'. It affects more people than you know.


I know! Makes me feel a little less like a freak of nature. It's like the difference between contracting some crazy debilitating disease that your doctor has never seen before versus influenza. It doesn't mean that I don't feel like it's an issue I need to work on, but I feel justified that there are plenty of folks that have been down the same road before. A little less daunting a task with that perspective.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I Don't Know said:


> I believe my RJ stems completely from insecurity and the need to be the absolute best she's ever had in every way.


Do you believe that that is in any way possible? You build the very best tree houses every time? And make the best risotto every time? Could you be asking too much of her opinion of you?



> When it's active, I can't imagine that she isn't settling for me. There's just no way I'm the best choice. At least that's what the dragon tells me. Therefore, less past means less competition.


Or, perhaps, past avoidance means less personal growth.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Orochi said:


> She says she "has no filter." The last time I heard her say that I very calmly and kindly correcter her saying, "yes you do dear. You just often choose not to use it." That went over far better than you might imagine.


You have no need of us. The above paragraph indicates that you already have this stuff nailed.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Is this a RJ thread? Or is this a spouse is rude and throws things they know bother me in my face thread? Honest question, because in my mind they are two very different issues.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thunder7 (Jan 2, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Is this a RJ thread? Or is this a spouse is rude and throws things they know bother me in my face thread? Honest question, because in my mind they are two very different issues.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But one can very easily bring on the other. You wouldn't discuss the finer points of scotch with someone you know is an alcoholic, would you? I think they do go hand in hand.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Thunder7 said:


> But one can very easily bring on the other. You wouldn't discuss the finer points of scotch with someone you know is an alcoholic, would you? I think they do go hand in hand.



So does that mean that anyone who doesn't have rj is perfectly ok with their partner offering unsolicited details? Cause I see this as a basic respect issue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

Orochi said:


> This. I couldn't have articulated it so well. When she talks about her previous experiences, the message I hear is, "you aren't special Orochi," with a generous dash of, "your efforts to keep yourself pure for me were pointless and you weren't worth waiting for." I consciously know that's not true nor intended. It sure helps to talk it out with a third party. Thank you again.



I would call this a loyalty test. She knows her past is not congruent with the choices you made prior to marrying her. So she chooses to remind you of it. She wants you to reassure you that, yes you know, that you accept it and that you can be confidant enough to push through it. 

So you can push through this a couple of ways. You can ignore it. Just get up and leave. You can celebrate it "yeah Hun. You were a total ****." Or you can stop it. "This is something we don't need to rehash." And shut her down. 

As a previous poster said the last thing you need to do is engage it. Don't feed her insecurities. When she's doing this, she's subconsciously asking "does he value me despite my past?" So don't speak with insecurity in front of her. 

Personally? I'd tell her "listen, I'm the last, so that's all we need to know." Then tell her to go up stairs and get naked.


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## Orochi (Apr 28, 2014)

> No triggers though!!


Trigger free is good. 



> Geezum crow, you are doing a whole hell of a lot better at taking advice then when I was looking for marriage advice a few years back. Good on you.
> 
> Food for thought. There will be helpful info in the men's clubhouse about fitness tests, the good, the bad and the ugly. Likely a lot of chafe to wade through too, but the wheat is there.
> 
> Keep that chin up. It sounds like you love the heck out of your wife and she loves you right back. Go Mr and Mrs Orochi!


Thanks. It looks like there is some good stuff over there.



> Would you have wanted to sleep with more women if you think it helps your wife's attraction to you?
> 
> Or would you if you realize she would respect you more if she knew you slept with a lot of women?


I'm not convinced that would even have an impact on her. Maybe but I don't know. Just between you and me and the internet, had I to do it all over again, I would have treated some of those opportunities differently than I did. If I could turn back the clock, I know for a fact that I could best her number, as if that means anything.



> ...but when he'd constantly bring it up, esp at really inappropriate times, it made me feel like he thought an awful lot about exes and wasn't living in the here and now. That made me feel extremely UN-special (not a real word-sorry); it's a lot of intimate time thinking about exes and not us. Made me feel like one in a long line...not sexy and not good for bonding.
> 
> Maybe this is an issue for you? The fact that she insists on talking about it suggests her mind is still there and not all in the present with you?


Yes. Eerily. GET OUT OF MY HEAD WOMAN!!! :rofl:



> You have no need of us. The above paragraph indicates that you already have this stuff nailed.


LOL thanks. You're awesome.


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## Thunder7 (Jan 2, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> So does that mean that anyone who doesn't have rj is perfectly ok with their partner offering unsolicited details? Cause I see this as a basic respect issue.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, not at all. One doesn't have to have RJ to be bothered by someone's past actions. But, someone who does have RJ WILL ALWAYS be bothered by someone's past actions. See what I mean?


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## OptimisticPessimist (Jul 26, 2010)

Thunder7 said:


> Can't believe I'm wading into this RJ nest. OP, you make some good points in this post. However, I will focus on the paragraph in bold. WHY. I think part of it has to do with value. A lot of people view sex as something to be valued. It is the glue in a relationship. Couples who are very close can look at sex as a way of sharing intimacy and a way to bring themselves closer together. So, let's say I view the act of sex with my SO as something extremely special. My thought process, as someone who deals with RJ, is that if my SO was out banging away before we met, that devalues what we have together. Why is sex special if she was out giving it away to whomever before she met me. It obviously had no value then, so why should I think it has value now. And if IT has no value, I have no value, WE have no value. I'm not special. We're not special. Do you see where I'm going with this?
> 
> RJ has been described as a form of OCD. With OCD there is very little logical thought. That little scenario I type above is how the unchecked OCD mind works. And once it starts going it's usually a downward spiral. Just trying to give you a little glimpse.


Does RJ stand for "retrospective jealousy"? Im not seeing what it means through google, and the link to TAM acronyms is on my other computer three states away 

In any case, thanks for the answer. I do understand where you are coming from now- I had never really looked at it that way. I have always considered sex an expression of "love", and thereby it is unique regardless of how many times it is performed (since it is different with every person). That said, sex needs to be of the "breeding" variety in marriage too, and I suppose that is where it is most affected by the amount of prior lovers. In essence, the more men she was willing to let breed her, the less value your breeding her has. I do not mean to reduce sex to barbaric terms, but I think that while we derive a great many statements from the act now in our modern context, it is still at its core related to reproduction- breeding. 

Let me ask a hard question here- I could possibly understand the idea that a woman who lets herself be "bred" by many men might have less value, but how could you feel any less valuable yourself? Yes, you are married to this woman you struggle with considering "lower value" because of her sexual promiscuity, but her past doesnt change who YOU are you know? You are still the same man whos attracted other women, the same man who can look at his life with pride, etc.. If the OP was simply having a hard time respecting his wife that is one thing; when it becomes not being able to respect HIMSELF due to the prior actions of his wife, that is another thing entirely. 

I think in a way some men have taken the second wave of feminism too far- its as if some have allowed women in many cases to become ALL or MOST of the value in their lives. Thus, when a woman has a lot of partners and he thinks for a moment the woman might be of "lower value" as a result, his ego necessarily takes a momentary hit because his ego is primarily driven by HER.

Im not sure im making sense- I guess I just dont agree with the idea that her former actions should have ANY depreciative value on YOU, you know? I dont say it to argue with you or anyone else; I genuinely would prefer you didnt have to struggle with such feelings as I cant imagine they are positive or inherently constructive. I mean what can the OP do in that case? Dump his faithful wife of 16 years because her sexual past doesnt itself glorify (even though most other facets of her character DO glorify) his value as a man? If feelings are how we relate to the world around us and thus implore us to perform logical actions to create, sustain, or destroy the reasons for the feeling, but the OP is not willing to leave his wife, it would seem he is doomed to be stuck eternally in a mire of self-doubt. Id like the OP to put his chin up- hes certainly a class act and deserves every bit of pride he should feel (from what I know of course). 

As always, different strokes for different folks  I will have to reflect on your opinion awhile, and I appreciate your clarification  Good luck to the OP!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

OptimisticPessimist said:


> I must have sat here 10 minutes trying to understand WHY it bothers men when a woman has had many sexual partners (or more than him), but I honestly just dont understand. Can you explain it to me exactly?


Optimist Pessimist, you KNOW I love your posts.. you give such insight to any subject you take on.... but really..you can't wrap your brain around WHY some men feel this way... My husband is ONE OF THOSE (yeah he is probably rare these days).. can I say...I dearly love him for feeling as he did, as he always has... because I FELT JUST AS STRONGLY in these things..... I , too, wanted a man who was saving himself for one special woman.. 

Our oldest son is one of those too...sounds like Orochi ! I find it very beautiful.. In attempting to further shed light on the WHY's for our varied sexual views... what it represents to us... Please take a moment and read of the 6 sexual lenses that people look through in our society.... 

Sounds Orochi also believed in waiting till marriage, so he had some Covenantal beliefs also...this obviously combined with the Romantic view .... 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...exual-views-have-they-changed-over-years.html

But it's like you said (and I agree, he accepted her for who she was, they have amazingly chemistry, so they NEED to work through this)... 



> > *1. **Covenantal View* ~ "Become one flesh". : Sex forges a permanent bond between 2 people...a representation of God’s covenantal relationship, it is a life-uniting act.. the Becoming of "one flesh" meant for marriage only.... to take sex lightly is not only disloyal to one’s spouse but also an affront to God... why the Traditional Wedding ceremony contains the words, “What God has joined together, let no man put asunder.”
> >
> > *3. ** Romantic View *~
> >
> > ...


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## OptimisticPessimist (Jul 26, 2010)

U.E. McGill said:


> I would call this a loyalty test. She knows her past is not congruent with the choices you made prior to marrying her. So she chooses to remind you of it. She wants you to reassure you that, yes you know, that you accept it and that you can be confidant enough to push through it.
> 
> So you can push through this a couple of ways. You can ignore it. Just get up and leave. You can celebrate it "yeah Hun. You were a total ****." Or you can stop it. "This is something we don't need to rehash." And shut her down.
> 
> ...


Yup. She implicitly determines that he values her... and his level of insecurity... all with one discussion.

LOVE your last paragraph- f*ck yeah! OP, that is EXACTLY how to OOZE with confidence. You might be surprised to find her turn into an ANIMAL when you say this, and you might also be surprised to realize 2 years later "wait.. she hasnt mentioned sex with other guys since that one time.."


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## Thunder7 (Jan 2, 2013)

OptimisticPessimist said:


> Does RJ stand for "retrospective jealousy"? Im not seeing what it means through google, and the link to TAM acronyms is on my other computer three states away
> 
> In any case, thanks for the answer. I do understand where you are coming from now- I had never really looked at it that way. I have always considered sex an expression of "love", and thereby it is unique regardless of how many times it is performed (since it is different with every person). That said, sex needs to be of the "breeding" variety in marriage too, and I suppose that is where it is most affected by the amount of prior lovers. In essence, the more men she was willing to let breed her, the less value your breeding her has. I do not mean to reduce sex to barbaric terms, but I think that while we derive a great many statements from the act now in our modern context, it is still at its core related to reproduction- breeding.
> 
> ...


It stands for retroactive jealousy, and as some posters have pointed out much better than I, the term 'jealousy' is really a misnomer. It's not jealousy in the typical meaning of the word. Here is the link to a website that explains it far batter than I.

What is Retroactive Jealousy? — Overcoming Retroactive Jealousy

Let me try to address a couple points from your post. <<I could possibly understand the idea that a woman who lets herself be "bred" by many men might have less value, but how could you feel any less valuable yourself? >> In a way you feel like less of a man because of it because you're allowing yourself to settle for something that is not optimal. I know that sounds harsh and I'm not passing judgement on anyone. It's almost like a emotional abuse, but you're doing it to yourself. Again, if it is a form of OCD it's hard for someone who doesn't think along these lines to look at like we do. You are looking at it from a logical perspective. We don't see the logic, we just feel the awful feelings it brings up. And this is coming from a guy who values logic over all. It doesn't matter. I still have not found a way to derail this thought process. 

<<her past doesnt change who YOU are>> No. it doesn't. But it does make you question yourself. Why did she do that? Why do I feel this way? If she did X with so many people she doesn't really care about me. They meant nothing to her, so I mean nothing to her. 

<<Thus, when a woman has a lot of partners and he thinks for a moment the woman might be of "lower value" as a result, his ego necessarily takes a momentary hit because his ego is primarily driven by HER.>> You're right, it is being driven by her. I am letting her past actions affect me in the present. Should it? No, probably not. But, it does, because of something that is a little off, maybe, in the RJ sufferer's brain. 

A wise poster on this topic here at TAM has a great saying when people casually suggest that it's all in the past. It's only in the past until someone brings it up. Now, it's in the present again (or something to that effect). Don't know if this explanation helps at all. Though I'd give it a whack.


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## OptimisticPessimist (Jul 26, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Optimist Pessimist, you KNOW I love your posts.. you give such insight to any subject you take on.... but really..you can't wrap your brain around WHY some men feel this way... My husband is ONE OF THOSE (yeah he is probably rare these days).. can I say...I dearly love him for feeling as he did, as he always has... because I FELT JUST AS STRONGLY in these things..... I , too, wanted a man who was saving himself for one special woman..
> 
> Our oldest son is one of those too...sounds like Orochi ! I find it very beautiful.. In attempting to further shed light on the WHY's for our varied sexual views... what it represents to us... Please take a moment and read of the 6 sexual lenses that people look through in our society....
> 
> ...


Hey SimplyA  I have heard the words before, but how can one understand unless he can feel? As I do not in the slightest have an issue with a woman's sexual history (so long as it doesnt demonstrate a complete lack of concern for health on a consistent basis), my only hope of understanding the OP's emotions is through empathy. I do see where, but dont feel where- does this make sense? Also, if it still seems amazing I dont understand completely, consider something my dad once said: "Everyone is an a*s in one way or another." 

I also want to clarify that I do very much value chastity, though obviously for a different reason. Anyone who can forgo one of the strongest human urges in pursuit of an ideal immediately earns a great amount of respect in my book, even if I dont necessarily subscribe to the ideal myself. I dont require marriage (though I dont sleep with a woman unless we are in a relationship), but I can appreciate others who do. If only more people in the world had the prefrontal cortex (area of the brain responsible for inhibition control) of the OP, we would have far fewer societal problems.

**EDIT** Notice how many singular things can be appreciated for completely different reasons? One man might like a Maserati for its exotic nature, while another might like it for its combination of luxury and performance. The above comment on chastity roughly follows this line.

SimplyA, check out the lyrics to a song called "Same Direction" by Hoobastank. Open to interpretation, but in some ways related to this edit...



Thunder7 said:


> It stands for retroactive jealousy, and as some posters have pointed out much better than I, the term 'jealousy' is really a misnomer. It's not jealousy in the typical meaning of the word. Here is the link to a website that explains it far batter than I.
> 
> What is Retroactive Jealousy? â€” Overcoming Retroactive Jealousy
> 
> Let me try to address a couple points from your post. <<I could possibly understand the idea that a woman who lets herself be "bred" by many men might have less value, but how could you feel any less valuable yourself? >> In a way you feel like less of a man because of it because you're allowing yourself to settle for something that is not optimal. I know that sounds harsh and I'm not passing judgement on anyone. It's almost like a emotional abuse, but you're doing it to yourself. Again, if it is a form of OCD it's hard for someone who doesn't think along these lines to look at like we do. You are looking at it from a logical perspective. We don't see the logic, we just feel the awful feelings it brings up. And this is coming from a guy who values logic over all. It doesn't matter. I still have not found a way to derail this thought process.


I see  I really wish you the best to get over these thoughts; they really have to suck. I wish I could say something that could help you or the OP directly, but im no expert in this field. 



Thunder7 said:


> <<her past doesnt change who YOU are>> No. it doesn't. But it does make you question yourself. Why did she do that? Why do I feel this way? If she did X with so many people she doesn't really care about me. They meant nothing to her, so I mean nothing to her.


This is a very personal thing to share, so I thank you for doing so. I have to say... as a peer and with NO condescension attached... I truly do not understand how one can fear that "she doesnt really care about me" simply on account of her sexual past. This world is full of so many social pressures, and ultimately human "morals" are an amalgam of the voices that make up our public narrative. The second wave of feminism ENCOURAGED this behavior and VAUNTS the idea of female sexual liberation- it is so easy for a young impressionable girl to lay on her back to find out what its all about- to feel physical euphoria that she will only have a very limited time to experience before her consciousness ceases to exist (in human form at least- you either die and are DONE [atheism] or "no sex in heaven" [theism]). She is human and perhaps she has matured to realize that one man is more valuable than varied sexual experience?

I dont know- this is really all well-meaning conjecture at this point. It really sucks you have to feel that way. Hopefully the future will show you a path to get over it...


Thunder7 said:


> <<Thus, when a woman has a lot of partners and he thinks for a moment the woman might be of "lower value" as a result, his ego necessarily takes a momentary hit because his ego is primarily driven by HER.>> You're right, it is being driven by her. I am letting her past actions affect me in the present. Should it? No, probably not. But, it does, because of something that is a little off, maybe, in the RJ sufferer's brain.






Thunder7 said:


> A wise poster on this topic here at TAM has a great saying when people casually suggest that it's all in the past. It's only in the past until someone brings it up. Now, it's in the present again (or something to that effect). Don't know if this explanation helps at all. Though I'd give it a whack.


Very true and a good quote I will have to remember. Thanks for this..


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## Thunder7 (Jan 2, 2013)

OptimisticPessimist said:


> I see  I really wish you the best to get over these thoughts; they really have to suck. I wish I could say something that could help you or the OP directly, but im no expert in this field.
> 
> 
> This is a very personal thing to share, so I thank you for doing so. I have to say... as a peer and with NO condescension attached... I truly do not understand how one can fear that "she doesnt really care about me" simply on account of her sexual past. This world is full of so many social pressures, and ultimately human "morals" are an amalgam of the voices that make up our public narrative. The second wave of feminism ENCOURAGED this behavior and VAUNTS the idea of female sexual liberation- it is so easy for a young impressionable girl to lay on her back to find out what its all about- to feel physical euphoria that she will only have a very limited time to experience before her consciousness ceases to exist (in human form at least- you either die and are DONE [atheism] or "no sex in heaven" [theism]). She is human and perhaps she has matured to realize that one man is more valuable than varied sexual experience?


Like I mentioned before, I cannot expect someone who doesn't have this thought process to fully understand. But, your empathy is greatly appreciated. It sure beats, 'Just get over it!'. One doesn't just 'get over' OCD. But it is hard to explain effectively to someone who doesn't 'get it'. I wish I could do a better job of it. 

However, I have to say I am dealing with this much better of late. Much better than some, and much better than a year and a half ago. Thanks again for the kind words.


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## OptimisticPessimist (Jul 26, 2010)

Thunder7 said:


> Like I mentioned before, I cannot expect someone who doesn't have this thought process to fully understand. But, your empathy is greatly appreciated. It sure beats, 'Just get over it!'. One doesn't just 'get over' OCD. But it is hard to explain effectively to someone who doesn't 'get it'. I wish I could do a better job of it.
> 
> However, I have to say I am dealing with this much better of late. Much better than some, and much better than a year and a half ago. Thanks again for the kind words.


I wish you and the OP the best on this. We come from different walks of life and so our outlooks on things can vary wildly. Its great its getting better though- what do you think has led things to improve? Reflection? Perhaps the link you posted above among others? I mean you covered some of your thoughts in posts above, but it seems to me you are JUST the man the OP needs to hear from..

Hes looking to reduce such thoughts, so perhaps you could share your mental strategy? I dont want to put you on the spot- I mean I suppose it could just be a "with time" process.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

I don't get clear why she would bring this up to OP.

Is it possible she is bored with the marital sex and wanted to prompt you for more variation? Wants more dynamics in the sense of other persons? Give you a warning about something?

In what circumstances did she mention it, in a heated fight about something, in a playful way, a teaching or exploring manner or 'just' resentful??

Ask her what she tried to get out of these conversations, and if she got something out of that. Which emotions were involved on her side?


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## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

Sorry, but, the OP's story brings to mind the phrase 'riding for a fall'.

Or he's some kind of masochist.

To thine own self be true.

Sorry. It's just that I'm a romantic at heart.


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## Thunder7 (Jan 2, 2013)

OptimisticPessimist said:


> I wish you and the OP the best on this. We come from different walks of life and so our outlooks on things can vary wildly. Its great its getting better though- what do you think has led things to improve? Reflection? Perhaps the link you posted above among others? I mean you covered some of your thoughts in posts above, but it seems to me you are JUST the man the OP needs to hear from..
> 
> Hes looking to reduce such thoughts, so perhaps you could share your mental strategy? I dont want to put you on the spot- I mean I suppose it could just be a "with time" process.


What has made it better? Acceptance is one thing. People say 'Just get over it'. It's not easy but there is some truth to it. RJ is dwelling on events that you can do absolutely nothing about. So either you drown in those thoughts or find a way to move past them. Always try to focus on the here and now. What led me to this person I've fallen in love with initially, and is it worth jeopardizing by dwelling on these things I can't change?

Avoiding triggers is a big one, too. There are things that cause memories, good and bad, to come flooding back. Avoiding those negative triggers is a key element to dealing with RJ. The problem for the OP is that his trigger seems to come in the form of his wife reminiscing about past sexual exploits. He cannot control those triggers. That's why it is paramount that he gets her to understand and stop this behavior. As long as she is doing this he will never be out of those woods.


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Do you believe that that is in any way possible? You build the very best tree houses every time? And make the best risotto every time? Could you be asking too much of her opinion of you?
> 
> *No, not at all. And the thing is, I probably am the best at most things, the things that really matter. She's told me she only had about 2 O's a month with her XH (I have no idea how it was with other STR guys), she has at least one every time we have sex. She's never had anyone help out around the house, I do, or more exactly WE do it all together. Her XH would come home and go to the bedroom, I'm engaged with the family and her nearly every day. So, logically, I am the best in these aspects. But to paraphrase Thunder, logic has no place here. When it's active none of this stuff matters and I focus on the one aspect that I'm dwelling on at that moment.*
> 
> ...


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Orochi said:


> I feel like I've gotten some good advice from the lot of you, and I can't believe how much positive response you've given in just one day.  I know that the problem is mostly with me at this point.
> 
> OptimisticPessimist - You read me right; we do have lots and lots of chemistry. I mostly want to get over this so we can be at our best, because I don't want to f**k it up. It's not like it comes up every day, and we do have a great time together, but this is always in the back of my mind, gnawing away at me and I'm sick of it.
> 
> ...



My situation is similar to you. 

I married my first and now married my second. My W had many in the past. One of those she was in love with but he treated her poorly. He also I found out, was huge in size. That bothered me a little years ago. I don't think it was the "size" issue but that she was in love with him so much. It made me wonder if it was because the sex was extremely good. That in turn made me feel insecure. 

My W never brought up her past unless I asked her to. When she does she feels guilty and ashamed. She also has told me many times she doesn't deserve me. She thinks I am the pure one. 

It's hard for me to see my W as she was in her past. She doesn't seem to be that kind of person to me. We have been together now for 16 years as well. She has been faithful.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

cjl said:


> My situation is similar to you.
> 
> I married my first and now married my second. My W had many in the past. One of those she was in love with but he treated her poorly. He also I found out, was huge in size. That bothered me a little years ago. I don't think it was the "size" issue but that she was in love with him so much. It made me wonder if it was because the sex was extremely good. That in turn made me feel insecure.
> 
> ...


What kind of person? Maybe you have formed incorrect assumptions about the "kind of people" who have more than 1 sexual partner.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

cjl said:


> My situation is similar to you.
> 
> I married my first and now married my second. My W had many in the past. One of those she was in love with but he treated her poorly. He also I found out, was huge in size. That bothered me a little years ago. I don't think it was the "size" issue but that she was in love with him so much. It made me wonder if it was because the sex was extremely good. That in turn made me feel insecure.
> 
> ...


Do NOT ask her these details.

Again, just like OP, you are simply dealing with consequences of your actions.

Your wife also made a mistake by sharing those details...big no no.

I suggest you get those thoughts/her info completely out of your mind and not think about them EVER.

Mind control

If you don't, it won't end well!!!


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## Csquare (Jan 14, 2014)

Orochi said:


> Phoenix is the only person I've ever known who really gets me. I've never had to explain my humor or the way my brain is working. It's almost like our minds are isometrics. After hanging out with her a few times, it was pretty clear that I was in deeper than I intended to be. She made no secret of her previous promiscuity, and it was pretty obvious to me that she had been sexually abused when she was younger (confirmed since).
> 
> Did she ever do anything to heal from the sexual abuse? Maybe her promiscuity was a reaction to that trauma. I don't know her thought process, but maybe: someone violated me, I must be unclean and unworthy, and so now I need to get filled by other men...?
> 
> If so, her sexual past may have nothing to do with not valuing you - or the future life with *you* - but rather with not valuing herself. Her "temple" was defiled and not treated as sacred. How to regain that sacred space? Can you help her reclaim that?


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

norajane said:


> What kind of person? Maybe you have formed incorrect assumptions about the "kind of people" who have more than 1 sexual partner.


Maybe I have. Maybe incorrect to you. I think it's all in what you believe in. What I meant by "kind of person" was she isn't with more than one person now. 

I lived a different life as a teenager and early 20's.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

DoF said:


> Do NOT ask her these details.
> 
> Again, just like OP, you are simply dealing with consequences of your actions.
> 
> ...


I did ask. I did bother me then but not now. My insecurity made me ask I guess. Since, she has done a pretty good job making me feel secure about it all.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

> It's hard for me to see my W as she was in her past. *She doesn't seem to be that kind of person to me. *We have been together now for 16 years as well. She has been faithful.





cjl said:


> Maybe I have. Maybe incorrect to you. I think it's all in what you believe in. What I meant by "kind of person" was she isn't with more than one person now.
> 
> I lived a different life as a teenager and early 20's.


So one assumption you've made is that people who have had sex with other people in the past are more likely to cheat. (Or does your logic only apply to women who have had sex with more than 1 person in their life?)

Yes, that is an _assumption_, which means it's not something that has been objectively verified. It is your belief, not fact. Thus, it is not helpful to you to base your expectations on it always being true. You'll find yourself wrong as often as right since cheating is equal opportunity, and you will find virgin brides and husbands cheating at some point in the future, just as well as people who weren't virgins at marriage.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Csquare said:


> If so, her sexual past may have nothing to do with not valuing you - or the future life with *you* - but rather with not valuing herself. Her "temple" was defiled and not treated as sacred. How to regain that sacred space? Can you help her reclaim that?


All this talk of temples and purity seems like y'all are talking about things, not people.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

norajane said:


> So one assumption you've made is that people who have had sex with other people in the past are more likely to cheat. (Or does your logic only apply to women who have had sex with more than 1 person in their life?)
> 
> Yes, that is an _assumption_, which means it's not something that has been objectively verified. It is your belief, not fact. Thus, it is not helpful to you to base your expectations on it always being true. You'll find yourself wrong as often as right since cheating is equal opportunity, and you will find virgin brides and husbands cheating at some point in the future, just as well as people who weren't virgins at marriage.


It is equal, not just women.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

cjl said:


> I did ask. I did bother me then but not now. My insecurity made me ask I guess. Since, she has done a pretty good job making me feel secure about it all.


Yep, I made the same mistake. It's only natural to do so, I just wouldn't do it again (it wasn't smart and only did damage that can never be repaired).


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## OptimisticPessimist (Jul 26, 2010)

norajane said:


> All this talk of temples and purity seems like y'all are talking about things, not people.


Liking this post was not enough; I agree 105%. 

All of this is subjective opinion, not objective fact; "right" and "wrong" or "clean" and "dirty" are all just conceptual labels we attach to energy-state expectations created by various social spheres, and this is why values vary by culture. Only science and mathematics can delve into the realm of objective fact, and even that is arguable and constantly re-examined.

I do understand feelings Thunder7 talked about, but even he who feels the affect of such subjective belief structures attempts to move past it.


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## Orochi (Apr 28, 2014)

Yesterday when Phoenix and I got home together, things were a little different. I didn't feel like I did anything different from normal, but she seemed a lot more comfortable and affectionate. It's possible that I had a different air, having made an attempt to change my attitude. It felt good.



> As I do not in the slightest have an issue with a woman's sexual history (so long as it doesnt demonstrate a complete lack of concern for health on a consistent basis)


There was quite a bit of that too. I should be thankful that she didn't get pregnant or drag diseases into our marriage.



> In what circumstances did she mention it, in a heated fight about something, in a playful way, a teaching or exploring manner or 'just' resentful??


There were circumstances when it was each of these ways. But, I've got to confess. After some personal soul searching late yesterday and this morning, I had to admit to myself that she hasn't done this in years. I honestly can't tell you when the last incident was. There have been some triggering events since, but nothing like that. It's almost like I got so screwed up and on the defensive that I was seeing it when it wasn't there anymore. Anytime I'd try to share this struggle with a friend, I'd get the whole, "just get over it," or "at least she got it out of her system," or, "I can understand how you feel, but you know I got mine before I was married. Hur hur." Eventually I just didn't bother anymore. The one time that I brought it up in a session with a councilor, she honest to God asked, "why can't you just get over it?" and I was done. Evidently I didn't do myself or my wife any favors when by internalizing it. You're probably getting tired of reading it, but it's such a relief to know that I'm not alone here. Thank you for welcoming me and commiserating. 



> Ask her what she tried to get out of these conversations, and if she got something out of that. Which emotions were involved on her side?


I have asked, and she says she doesn't know what she was thinking. There was one BF that she used to talk about quite a bit. Many years after, she mused that she "had been trying to convince herself" that she was supposed to wind up with him. I think that was supposed to make me feel better.



> She also has told me many times she doesn't deserve me. She thinks I am the pure one.


The next time this comes up in my house, I'm going to tell her that if it was ever remotely true, she's long since earned me. This is what I'm telling myself: I chose her, and she chose me. That was sixteen years ago, and we've since had significantly more and far better sex together than anything that happened before then.



> Did she ever do anything to heal from the sexual abuse? Maybe her promiscuity was a reaction to that trauma. I don't know her thought process, but maybe: someone violated me, I must be unclean and unworthy, and so now I need to get filled by other men...?


I think there's a lot of truth there. She has not been to a professional concerning this issue, but she did express a lot, in abuse survivor forums, with her family, and by confronting and forgiving her abuser. She got ostracized by half her family for her troubles. I understand that's a pretty common reaction. At first, she talked about talking to a therapist, but since she says that she's fine and doesn't need it.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

Orochi said:


> Hello all! N00b here.  I ran across this thread on a Google search and it touched me deeply. I left a quick comment there and have more to say, but I felt like it would be more appropriate to start a new thread with my thoughts than to resurrect that zombie thread.
> 
> I don't want to "hide" this from my wife so much as "spare her feelings". We are very open in our communication with each other, but I fear that some of the things that I will share here would be quite hurtful to her. I love my wife more than my own existence and only want her to be happy and to be happy with her. That's probably what makes this so extremely difficult. So anyway...
> 
> ...


OP

not a big deal but a couple things puzzled me:

_ I could have gotten a music and wrestling scholarship to any university of my choice, but went to an in state for college for her (the ex). _

do you mean you could have gotten _either_ a music scholarship _or_ a wrestling scholarship to any school of your choice? you must have been both a great wrestler and a great musician. do you lpay an instrument? 

also did you really dedicate your young life to celibacy simply because of "something you read somewhere"? or did you mean it that way? I assume you formed some kind of moral conviction at some point....religion-based?


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## Orochi (Apr 28, 2014)

> do you mean you could have gotten either a music scholarship or a wrestling scholarship to any school of your choice? you must have been both a great wrestler and a great musician. do you lpay an instrument?


I did, but I'm out of practice now.



> also did you really dedicate your young life to celibacy simply because of "something you read somewhere"? or did you mean it that way? I assume you formed some kind of moral conviction at some point....religion-based?


No, sorry. Reading back over my OP is a little embarrassing. That was quite the mental vomit. It was religion-based moral conviction that led me to that decision. Whatever I read on the subject just reinforced that decision for me.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

OK. I have some advice to offer, but again its a little unclear. you said its been about 8 months since she brought this kind of stuff up, but now you estimate its been years since she has. you're unsure whether its in the distant past or recent past? makes a difference in terms of whether or not she hawe really changed. sounds like she 'went there' or hinted at something at least, in the past year.


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

This reads like a bad romance novel. Always a cliff hanger ending with each post. Just enough suspense.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

OptimisticPessimist said:


> Hey SimplyA  I have heard the words before, but how can one understand unless he can feel? As I do not in the slightest have an issue with a woman's sexual history (so long as it doesnt demonstrate a complete lack of concern for health on a consistent basis), my only hope of understanding the OP's emotions is through empathy. I do see where, but dont feel where- does this make sense? Also, if it still seems amazing I dont understand completely, consider something my dad once said: "Everyone is an a*s in one way or another."


 I get that many do not care how many previous partners another has.. I really DO.. for me, I don't understand THAT... because I have always felt strongly -wanting these experiences with the Man I marry...I felt that would be very very very special... I also wanted to find young love & marry younger too... 1sts mean something to SOME OF US... does this make us wrong?

Granted, I can see that neither is going to convince the other of anything or change their philosophy....hence, why I did that thread with the 6 sexual lenses -so people can read those differences ....to what is paramount to each, where we put the most weight, is it marriage (religious constraint many times)... is it pleasure (Plain sex)... it is power/ an ego boost (a measure of this in the hooking up scene).... it is waiting for "the one"... 

None are wrong...they are just different. I think you can appreciate this  



> I also want to clarify that I do very much value chastity, though obviously for a different reason. Anyone who can forgo one of the strongest human urges in pursuit of an ideal immediately earns a great amount of respect in my book, even if I dont necessarily subscribe to the ideal myself. I dont require marriage (though I dont sleep with a woman unless we are in a relationship), but I can appreciate others who do.* If only more people in the world had the prefrontal cortex (area of the brain responsible for inhibition control) of the OP, we would have far fewer societal problems*.


I , of course, certainly agree with your thoughts on the societal ills -as we are all picking the pieces up for.... I guess this is your only reason to see any measure of value in it.... at least it is something!....less unplanned babies to those who have no care for each other....less women feeling "used"...these experiences can carry over onto their husbands too....now we can add some RJ to the mix -depending.....oh the list could go on & on -on this account.... 



> **EDIT** Notice how many singular things can be appreciated for completely different reasons? One man might like a Maserati for its exotic nature, while another might like it for its combination of luxury and performance. The above comment on chastity roughly follows this line.
> 
> SimplyA, check out the lyrics to a song called "Same Direction" by Hoobastank. Open to interpretation, but in some ways related to this edit...


I listened to the song (I like Hoonastank!)... some of the words here.. 



> So why does there only have to be one correct philosophy?
> I don't want to go and follow you just to end up like one of them
> And why are you always telling me what you want me to believe?
> I'd like to think that i can go my own way and meet you in the end.


These words make me think of this saying (below)..found in the front of one a Temperament book entitled "*PLease Understand Me*"...I think you would appreciate it OptimisticPessimist... I know it has helped ME open my mind further to EMBRACE others views ...even though, for ME.. I do not feel as they do (just as they think I have hang ups)..... yet I will hold true to myself... in what I believe, how I feel.. what I enjoy..what has brought me personal fulfillment. (added a few thoughts in blue)




> "Different Drums for Different Drummers"
> 
> If I do not want what you want, please try not to tell me that my want is wrong.
> 
> ...


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

Let me try to address a couple points from your post. <<I could possibly understand the idea that a woman who lets herself be "bred" by many men might have less value, but how could you feel any less valuable yourself? >> In a way you feel like less of a man because of it because you're allowing yourself to settle for something that is not optimal. I know that sounds harsh and I'm not passing judgement on anyone. It's almost like a emotional abuse, but you're doing it to yourself. Again, if it is a form of OCD it's hard for someone who doesn't think along these lines to look at like we do. You are looking at it from a logical perspective. We don't see the logic, we just feel the awful feelings it brings up. And this is coming from a guy who values logic over all. It doesn't matter. I still have not found a way to derail this thought process. 

<<her past doesnt change who YOU are>> No. it doesn't. But it does make you question yourself. Why did she do that? Why do I feel this way? If she did X with so many people she doesn't really care about me. They meant nothing to her, so I mean nothing to her. 

<<Thus, when a woman has a lot of partners and he thinks for a moment the woman might be of "lower value" as a result, his ego necessarily takes a momentary hit because his ego is primarily driven by HER.>> You're right, it is being driven by her. I am letting her past actions affect me in the present. Should it? No, probably not. But, it does, because of something that is a little off, maybe, in the RJ sufferer's brain. 

A wise poster on this topic here at TAM has a great saying when people casually suggest that it's all in the past. It's only in the past until someone brings it up. Now, it's in the present again (or something to that effect). Don't know if this explanation helps at all. Though I'd give it a whack.[/QUOTE]


Wow, this is a fascinating thread. I didn't realize until *Thunder *wrote this above that I struggled with some of this in the earlier years of my marriage. I don't think it had a label, or at least not that I was aware of at the time, but I definitely remember getting churned up to the point of nausea about it.

I will say that with more understanding about my W's past, a change in my thought process about it, acceptance about it and time has almost completely diminished it. Every once in a blue moon, I'll be triggered to think about it briefly but it's rare and I don't allow those thoughts into the spin cycle any more.

My W and I each had partners before we got together although neither of us was excessive. Promiscuity is a relative thing for people and I do think that men struggle with it much more so than women tend to. The interesting thing here is that I had more partners than my now W did. RJ doesn't make sense to most but I totally understand the OP's issues. I can't imagine how much harder mine would have been to get over if I had saved myself for marriage and my W didn't.

RJ's root is fear and insecurity. The fear is that maybe you made a mistake in your choice. Perhaps you chose your mate for the wrong reasons and overlooked other compatibility areas. Perhaps my W really didn't match my moral views for my ideal woman and doesn't feel the same way that I feel about her. You begin to think that maybe this woman isn't who I thought she was at all, which is true. I believe that before you fall in love with someone, you fall in love with the ideal of them first. In my case, I suppose I wanted a virtuous woman that was a slvt in the bedroom. I believe initially that maybe that's what I thought I got but once I got to know my W even better, I realized that she fell short in some areas and this would be true of any person.

The insecurity I had stemmed from a couple of areas. I thought of myself as a good looking guy with a really nice body. I played football in college so I constantly worked out and was a bit of a "hound" in college. I was a confident sort, on the outside anyway, but on the inside maybe not so much. Now my W was straight up gorgeous. She was the kind of gorgeous that would get her stopped when walking on the beach so that people could take pictures of her. The kind of gorgeous that made me proud to have her but also secretly terrified that I had out-kicked my coverage. Maybe I got something that I didn't quite deserve.

The other area of insecurity was in the value I placed on sex in a committed relationship. Sex with me is supposed to be special so how could you have done that with X number of other guys. Then you factor in your performance against those past partners in your own head and you've got a real potential ego crusher. I'm supposed to be her "stud" but perhaps I'm not and I'm merely just another bozo on the bus. This is the kind of crap that went on in my head.

The first thing I did to begin to get over this was to promptly take my W down from the pedestal I had placed her on and quit making her the primary source for how I felt about myself. Yes, another person can make you feel important and build you up but they can knock you down just as easily. I had to realize that I'm of value on my own. She was definitely an asset to me but she can't and shouldn't be responsible for my self worth. Only God can do that IMO. She and I were fairly young when we got married (23 and 22) and I had to learn this lesson more so than she did. She came from a more loving environment that I did and didn't have these types of insecurity issues.

The second thing I did was to understand why she did the things she did. We talked about our pasts and what we learned from them. While this was more painful for me than her, it helped me greatly to think of her in a different light. I gleaned new understanding about my W. I was all about quick casual sex and ONS but she wasn't into that at all. She was about pursuing relationships and admittedly had sex when she shouldn't have with a few of those guys along the way. I suppose I feared that she may have been as cavalier about it as I had been at times but she wasn't.

Once I understood why she did what she did, I realized that she wasn't a bad person or someone who didn't share my values for a wife but rather just another human being who made mistakes along the way just like I did. We've both wished that we had been chaste for one another and I was able to accept that.

Now all of this has been helpful to me but time has probably been the biggest aid. After 28+ years, you just tend to accept the person for who they are. That, and I haven't seen any evidence to support my earlier fears and insecurities. Everybody is young and more than likely stupid at some point in their lives. Accept them and move on. Life is too short and I can't believe how quickly the years have flown by. It will be over before I know it and I'm going to love her and accept her the best I can the rest of the way.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Mostlycontent said:


> Let me try to address a couple points from your post. <<I could possibly understand the idea that a woman who lets herself be "bred" by many men might have less value, but how could you feel any less valuable yourself? >> In a way you feel like less of a man because of it because you're allowing yourself to settle for something that is not optimal. I know that sounds harsh and I'm not passing judgement on anyone. It's almost like a emotional abuse, but you're doing it to yourself. Again, if it is a form of OCD it's hard for someone who doesn't think along these lines to look at like we do. You are looking at it from a logical perspective. We don't see the logic, we just feel the awful feelings it brings up. And this is coming from a guy who values logic over all. It doesn't matter. I still have not found a way to derail this thought process.
> 
> <<her past doesnt change who YOU are>> No. it doesn't. But it does make you question yourself. Why did she do that? Why do I feel this way? If she did X with so many people she doesn't really care about me. They meant nothing to her, so I mean nothing to her.
> 
> ...



Wow, this is a fascinating thread. I didn't realize until *Thunder *wrote this above that I struggled with some of this in the earlier years of my marriage. I don't think it had a label, or at least not that I was aware of at the time, but I definitely remember getting churned up to the point of nausea about it.

I will say that with more understanding about my W's past, a change in my thought process about it, acceptance about it and time has almost completely diminished it. Every once in a blue moon, I'll be triggered to think about it briefly but it's rare and I don't allow those thoughts into the spin cycle any more.

My W and I each had partners before we got together although neither of us was excessive. Promiscuity is a relative thing for people and I do think that men struggle with it much more so than women tend to. The interesting thing here is that I had more partners than my now W did. RJ doesn't make sense to most but I totally understand the OP's issues. I can't imagine how much harder mine would have been to get over if I had saved myself for marriage and my W didn't.

RJ's root is fear and insecurity. The fear is that maybe you made a mistake in your choice. Perhaps you chose your mate for the wrong reasons and overlooked other compatibility areas. Perhaps my W really didn't match my moral views for my ideal woman and doesn't feel the same way that I feel about her. You begin to think that maybe this woman isn't who I thought she was at all, which is true. I believe that before you fall in love with someone, you fall in love with the ideal of them first. In my case, I suppose I wanted a virtuous woman that was a slvt in the bedroom. I believe initially that maybe that's what I thought I got but once I got to know my W even better, I realized that she fell short in some areas and this would be true of any person.

The insecurity I had stemmed from a couple of areas. I thought of myself as a good looking guy with a really nice body. I played football in college so I constantly worked out and was a bit of a "hound" in college. I was a confident sort, on the outside anyway, but on the inside maybe not so much. Now my W was straight up gorgeous. She was the kind of gorgeous that would get her stopped when walking on the beach so that people could take pictures of her. The kind of gorgeous that made me proud to have her but also secretly terrified that I had out-kicked my coverage. Maybe I got something that I didn't quite deserve.

The other area of insecurity was in the value I placed on sex in a committed relationship. Sex with me is supposed to be special so how could you have done that with X number of other guys. Then you factor in your performance against those past partners in your own head and you've got a real potential ego crusher. I'm supposed to be her "stud" but perhaps I'm not and I'm merely just another bozo on the bus. This is the kind of crap that went on in my head.

*The first thing I did to begin to get over this was to promptly take my W down from the pedestal I had placed her on and quit making her the primary source for how I felt about myself. Yes, another person can make you feel important and build you up but they can knock you down just as easily. I had to realize that I'm of value on my own. She was definitely an asset to me but she can't and shouldn't be responsible for my self worth. Only God can do that IMO. *She and I were fairly young when we got married (23 and 22) and I had to learn this lesson more so than she did. She came from a more loving environment that I did and didn't have these types of insecurity issues.

The second thing I did was to understand why she did the things she did. We talked about our pasts and what we learned from them. While this was more painful for me than her, it helped me greatly to think of her in a different light. I gleaned new understanding about my W. I was all about quick casual sex and ONS but she wasn't into that at all. She was about pursuing relationships and admittedly had sex when she shouldn't have with a few of those guys along the way. I suppose I feared that she may have been as cavalier about it as I had been at times but she wasn't.

Once I understood why she did what she did, I realized that she wasn't a bad person or someone who didn't share my values for a wife but rather just another human being who made mistakes along the way just like I did. We've both wished that we had been chaste for one another and I was able to accept that.

Now all of this has been helpful to me but time has probably been the biggest aid. After 28+ years, you just tend to accept the person for who they are. That, and I haven't seen any evidence to support my earlier fears and insecurities. Everybody is young and more than likely stupid at some point in their lives. Accept them and move on. Life is too short and I can't believe how quickly the years have flown by. It will be over before I know it and I'm going to love her and accept her the best I can the rest of the way.[/QUOTE]

I'm still working on this. 

Thanks for this post.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

cjl said:


> [/COLOR][/COLOR]The first thing I did to begin to get over this was to promptly take my W down from the pedestal I had placed her on and quit making her the primary source for how I felt about myself. Yes, another person can make you feel important and build you up but they can knock you down just as easily. I had to realize that I'm of value on my own. She was definitely an asset to me but she can't and shouldn't be responsible for my self worth. Only *I/person *can do that IMO.


Fixed and agreed


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## Orochi (Apr 28, 2014)

> OK. I have some advice to offer, but again its a little unclear. you said its been about 8 months since she brought this kind of stuff up, but now you estimate its been years since she has. you're unsure whether its in the distant past or recent past? makes a difference in terms of whether or not she hawe really changed. sounds like she 'went there' or hinted at something at least, in the past year.





> This reads like a bad romance novel. Always a cliff hanger ending with each post. Just enough suspense.


Gah! I know. I'm so sorry. To clarify, it's been years since she brought up anything _in malice_. About eight months ago she started into it in fear, and didn't really regard how I might feel about it. She had an abnormal pap smear at the OBGYN and had to go back for a colposcopy and biopsy. In anxiety over the subsequent procedure, she started talking about this guy she dated who tested positive for HPV. She told a nurse friend of ours about how I hadn't been with anyone else and she had, in the process of seeking medical advice. I thought we had an understanding that the abnormal pap was probably an indicator of nothing (it indeed turned out to be a false alarm) and not worth worrying about until after the procedure. I felt blind-sided. Not sure I can look at that nurse friend in the eyes again.  Some time before that, she'd told another friend of ours about the historical disparity between our sexuality that blew up and ended the friendship. Needless to say, that was awkward. I felt spotlighted and shamed for the restraint in my youth. At that time, I asked her not to discuss my sexual history (or lack thereof) with anyone else, and she agreed not to. When the latter occasion happened, I felt a little betrayed and it made all the past come flooding back to me. Regarding her talking about the other dude, I now know that was her regret that her past might have been about to affect our present in a very real and tangible way. Unfortunately I just didn't have the head space for that realization at the time.



> In my case, I suppose I wanted a virtuous woman that was a slvt in the bedroom.


That is quite the ideal, isn't it? It is my personal opinion that a married couple should be quite promiscuous with each other.

Something was on my mind this morning that might be worth sharing. Her most recent 'friend with benefits' actually showed up to our wedding and tried to talk me out of it. I dismissed him and told him it was none of his business. In retrospect, I kind of wish I had told him to go f**k himself, or just invited him outside the church for a good old fashioned, country a**-whoopin.  Apparently the point was made anyway as we haven't bumped into him since. Also, who needs assault charges on their wedding day?


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## Orochi (Apr 28, 2014)

> The first thing I did to begin to get over this was to promptly take my W down from the pedestal I had placed her on and quit making her the primary source for how I felt about myself. Yes, another person can make you feel important and build you up but they can knock you down just as easily. I had to realize that I'm of value on my own. She was definitely an asset to me but she can't and shouldn't be responsible for my self worth. Only *I, personally, by the Grace of God* can do that IMO.


Perhaps? I'm trying to get this. Being married to Phoenix has been the biggest roller coaster ever. She has made me feel like the biggest stud and like the most worthless thing in existence at one time or another. I know that I need to not look to her for my self worth. Sometimes it's easy to forget.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Sounds like there is a disconnect between your wife's mouth and her brain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Orochi said:


> Gah! I know. I'm so sorry. To clarify, it's been years since she brought up anything _in malice_. About eight months ago she started into it in fear, and didn't really regard how I might feel about it. She had an abnormal pap smear at the OBGYN and had to go back for a colposcopy and biopsy. In anxiety over the subsequent procedure, she started talking about this guy she dated who tested positive for HPV. She told a nurse friend of ours about how I hadn't been with anyone else and she had, in the process of seeking medical advice. I thought we had an understanding that the abnormal pap was probably an indicator of nothing (it indeed turned out to be a false alarm) and not worth worrying about until after the procedure. *I felt blind-sided. Not sure I can look at that nurse friend in the eyes again.  Some time before that, she'd told another friend of ours about the historical disparity between our sexuality that blew up and ended the friendship. Needless to say, that was awkward. I felt spotlighted and shamed for the restraint in my youth. At that time, I asked her not to discuss my sexual history (or lack thereof) with anyone else, and she agreed not to. When the latter occasion happened, I felt a little betrayed and it made all the past come flooding back to me. Regarding her talking about the other dude, I now know that was her regret that her past might have been about to affect our present in a very real and tangible way. Unfortunately I just didn't have the head space for that realization at the time.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*I don't think W has told anyone about our disparity but OMG that would have made me feel the same way. It would have made me feel like an outsider/different level/not a man, etc. *


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Orochi said:


> Perhaps? I'm trying to get this. Being married to Phoenix has been the biggest roller coaster ever. She has made me feel like the biggest stud and like the most worthless thing in existence at one time or another. I know that I need to not look to her for my self worth. Sometimes it's easy to forget.



I have and probably still on the roller coaster. Mine has told me very seriously DO NOT put me on a pedestal. It's very easy to forget.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Orochi, you have to talk to her about this. She has no idea when she is hurting you. Well, if she is not doing it on purpose that is.

It isn't about you being judgmental about her. It isn't that she is worth less in your eyes. It is that it is hurtful to you that she parades other men in front of you.

I think there are issues on your side, too. Naturally you feel some anxieties about how you compare in all ways to these other men. This is something for you to talk about with her, too. While to her it may not be true that she compares you to other men she's been with, it is still something in your mind at times. And I want to be clear that the comparison is not just sex related, it could be if one of them was wealthy, or an athlete, or from an exotic foreign country, or any other perceived (but not necessarily correct) attribute which may be "superior" to you.

In fact she is with you, not them. She has to understand though that you do naturally wonder about these other men. And, you wonder about them because she talks about them! It isn't that you want to erase her past or force her to never think about her past, it is that you want her focus to be 99.999% on the present and future with you. 

Another aspect may be a disparity in how you two view sex. It could be a false conclusion on your part that this disparity exists, or it could be a real disparity. For you, sex with her is unique. You never ever let anyone else see this part of you. You have given her something special about you, which is a unique knowledge of you. Nobody else knows this about you. This makes sex a very personal thing for you.

Yet she has had sex with many other men. (I haven't read most of the thread so I didn't catch if there is a specific number you know). For her, sex with you is not unique. She has seen other men naked and she has experienced sex with them. You are "just another naked male body" to oversimplify the analysis. When she speaks of other men, it might confirm to you this conclusion that you are less important to her than she is to you.

Hey, this is a complicated thing! My wife was my first, though I did not set out like you did to save myself. It just worked out that way. But she had several other men before me, and apparently she had more than she admitted to when we discussed our histories. So I do understand the hurt when she brings up an ex-lover for no really good reason. Yes there are logical rare times for it to come up. When one of our kids goes to a high school prom of course I remember my prom, and it may be logical for my wife to say something about her prom in a conversation with our child. But it is this kind of a rare situation which is understandable. If she keeps remembering and talking about exes, that is not cool on many levels.

I think you have to try to talk to her about it. Again, not in an accusatory way or judgmental way, just a calm explanation of how it makes you feel.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Orochi said:


> To clarify, it's been years since she brought up anything _in malice_.


Malice? Really? You're certain that your wife has brought up her sexual history in malice toward you? Why are you still married if you truly believe she holds malice toward you?



Orochi said:


> About eight months ago she started into it in fear, and didn't really regard how I might feel about it. *She had an abnormal pap smear at the OBGYN and had to go back for a colposcopy and biopsy*. In anxiety over the subsequent procedure, she started talking about this guy she dated who tested positive for HPV. She told a nurse friend of ours about how I hadn't been with anyone else and she had, in the process of seeking medical advice. I thought we had an understanding that the abnormal pap was probably an indicator of nothing (it indeed turned out to be a false alarm) and not worth worrying about until after the procedure. I felt blind-sided. *Not sure I can look at that nurse friend in the eyes again.*


Talking about her sexual history to a nurse friend after HER pap smears came back with some abnormalities, having to go in for a biopsy and colonoscopy on HER body, and sharing HER fears that SHE may have gotten HPV from an ex because she wouldn't have gotten it from her H who hadn't been with anyone else is not:

- parading other men in front of her H
- sharing info for no reason
- shameful in any way

Orochi, if you think someone knowing that you have only had sex with your wife is SHAMEFUL, I confess I don't understand why you waited to have sex.



Thor said:


> ]Yet she has had sex with many other men. (I haven't read most of the thread so I didn't catch if there is a specific number you know). *For her, sex with you is not unique.* She has seen other men naked and she has experienced sex with them. You are "just another naked male body" to oversimplify the analysis. When she speaks of other men, it might confirm to you this conclusion that you are less important to her than she is to you.


I *vehemently *disagree with this. Having had sex with other men might mean sex itself is not unique to her, but having sex with HER HUSBAND is very much unique to her. Her husband is NOT just another male body. He is her Husband, a totally different kind of relationship than with anyone she's ever had, and that also makes her sexual experience with H totally different from anyone else. Sex is not just bodies and body parts, people!


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## Orochi (Apr 28, 2014)

Thanks Thor.



> I think you have to try to talk to her about it. Again, not in an accusatory way or judgmental way, just a calm explanation of how it makes you feel.


I have been. There are a couple of problems I've had to navigate though. Obviously this is an emotionally charged issue for both of us. When it's come up I'm usually too stunned to really say or do anything about it. It used to be that I'd dissociate it so badly that I couldn't even think about it until after the fact. I've had to be really careful letting her know how I feel. Even when I've remained calm she has sometimes felt like it was an attack. More recently, I've found that when we're both feeling good, if I say something along the lines of, "it really hurt when you said such and such." For instance, in the story I earlier related concerning our nurse friend, she was so upset at the time that there was simply no reasoning with her. Last week I calmly confronted her on that instance and said, "it was wrong of you to tell her that after I'd asked you not to and you agreed to my request." She argued a little, but I stood my ground and I told her that I'd like assurance that she would keep her word.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

norajane said:


> Malice? Really? You're certain that your wife has brought up her sexual history in malice toward you? Why are you still married if you truly believe she holds malice toward you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Because of his religious or spiritual beliefs. It's in The Bible and likely other religions as well. Many of faith would likely wonder why you chose not to wait. It works both ways.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

DoF said:


> Fixed and agreed



To rephrase, my position is that we are all children of God, which means that we are unique and special because he made us that way. That is my validation and not some other person.

Your supposition that I could just validate myself is not probable, for if it was that easy to just decide that I'm of value then I likely wouldn't have any insecurity in the first place. How could or would one validate ones self anyway?


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Mostlycontent said:


> Because of his religious or spiritual beliefs. It's in The Bible and likely other religions as well. Many of faith would likely wonder why you chose not to wait. It works both ways.


I don't understand why he chose to wait *when he believes it is something to be ashamed about*, and can't look people in the eye if they know he was a virgin at marriage.

I'd expect a faith-based reason for waiting would not lead to being ashamed about it. I'd expect he'd feel good about it, since he lived up to his faith-based principles. If his wife is "unworthy" becasue she wasn't a virgin, then I'd think he'd be all proud of himself for waiting.

Yet, he is ashamed.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

norajane said:


> I don't understand why he chose to wait *when he believes it is something to be ashamed about*, and can't look people in the eye if they know he was a virgin at marriage.
> 
> *I'd expect a faith-based reason for waiting would not lead to being ashamed about it. I'd expect he'd feel good about it, since he lived up to his faith-based principles. If his wife is "unworthy" becasue she wasn't a virgin, then I'd think he'd be all proud of himself for waiting.*
> 
> Yet, he is ashamed.


Now I see your point and I agree. I'm not sure why he'd be ashamed about that either. Perhaps he's really more so ashamed that his wife didn't wait and he doesn't want people to know either fact. Just a hunch.


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## Orochi (Apr 28, 2014)

norajane - *colposcopy*



> I'm not sure why he'd be ashamed about that either. Perhaps he's really more so ashamed that his wife didn't wait and he doesn't want people to know either fact. Just a hunch.


I'm not sure myself, to tell the truth. Maybe you're on to something. Phoenix often exhibits a special contempt towards purity. She rarely has anything nice to say about purity or virginity, and I can't help but take it personally. If she holds it in such high disregard, then she surely can't think highly of the gift I gave her by turning down all those girls when I was a teenager. It mostly just seems pointless and embarrassing now. However, it may be that she acts this way because she's ashamed that she didn't wait. I wonder if it would be much simpler and easier if I did have experience aside from her.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Orochi said:


> norajane - *colposcopy*
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure myself, to tell the truth. Maybe you're on to something. Phoenix often exhibits a special contempt towards purity. She rarely has anything nice to say about purity or virginity, and I can't help but take it personally. If she holds it in such high disregard, then she surely can't think highly of the gift I gave her by turning down all those girls when I was a teenager. It mostly just seems pointless and embarrassing now. However, it may be that she acts this way because she's ashamed that she didn't wait. I wonder if it would be much simpler and easier if I did have experience aside from her.


You say you can't help but take her comments about purity and virginity personally - imagine how hard it would be for her not to feel like sh*t and take it personally when you tell her how bad it makes you feel that she wasn't a virgin?

If you have been making her feel ashamed and unworthy because of her sexual history, then it would not surprise me in the least that she would react by getting defensive and putting down the virginity you used against her. 

You knew her history before marriage and supposedly accepted her for who she is, yet then turned around and talked about how bad she made you feel for being "impure." Why would she have anything good to say about purity under those circumstances when it comes across as taking a whack at her character?

I'm not saying her opinion of virginity and purity is better than your opinion, but it's not like her opinion developed in a vacuum. It developed in a marriage where she was labeled impure.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

norajane said:


> I *vehemently *disagree with this. Having had sex with other men might mean sex itself is not unique to her, but having sex with HER HUSBAND is very much unique to her. Her husband is NOT just another male body. He is her Husband, a totally different kind of relationship than with anyone she's ever had, and that also makes her sexual experience with H totally different from anyone else. Sex is not just bodies and body parts, people!


I understand what you're saying, but that was not what I was getting at. For him, sex is and always was something only experienced with his wife. This makes sex something completely restricted to his relationship with her. No other woman has been permitted to see that part of him. For him, sex = doing it with his wife.

Sex with another woman can never ever be the same as it is with his wife. If they were to D in the future, he might have vastly better sex (whatever that is) with another woman. It isn't that sex cannot be great with someone else, it is that sex with another woman would always be something emotionally different, something non-exclusive to his relationship with her. Sex would now = doing it with a woman.

He is literally another male body his wife has had sex with. While it may be fantastic sex for her, and she may have zero interest or thoughts of sex with anyone else forever now, it remains that sex from her side of things is not something exclusive to her relationship with him. This is where the ego and male insecurities may find leverage.

If his wife is "parading" her sexual past in front of him, his sex value comes into question. He wonders how much she values sex _with him_. If she mentions sex she's had with other men, then she's thinking about sex with other men, and thus she's not thinking about sex with him. Why?

From his perspective when he thinks about sex with a woman, he always thinks about sex with his wife.

Now all of this can be very distorted thinking on his part. It is likely to be at least partially distorted thinking. He may be sensitized to the issue, and then one of those understandable rare situations comes up (like the docs office seems to be) and he emotionally over reacts to it.

If she genuinely cares for him and if she has a healthy attitude about sex, she should understand his emotional responses and she should desire to avoid upsetting him. She should recognize that her behaviors may unintentionally cause him distress and she should desire to change her behaviors.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

norajane said:


> Talking about her sexual history to a nurse friend after HER pap smears came back with some abnormalities, having to go in for a biopsy and colonoscopy on HER body, and sharing HER fears that SHE may have gotten HPV from an ex because she wouldn't have gotten it from her H who hadn't been with anyone else is not:
> 
> - parading other men in front of her H
> - sharing info for no reason
> - shameful in any way


:iagree:

It may be uncomfortable to hear about her past, but this is a situation where it is important for her to discuss it accurately with the medical people.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

norajane said:


> Orochi, if you think someone knowing that you have only had sex with your wife is SHAMEFUL, I confess I don't understand why you waited to have sex.


I wish I had more time to reply, but I'm behind schedule for work already. This is where his distorted thinking is showing. BTDT myself.

I can't answer for him but perhaps I can jostle him a bit to think about it and perhaps clarify where his discomfort is coming from.

First off (but maybe not the biggest emotional part of it) is the societal presumptions. Men are presumed to be sexual, and it is "normal" for a man to have several sex partners before marriage. A man who doesn't is painted by society at large (movies, magazine articles, websites for men to become more manly, etc) as being Beta, less masculine, and perhaps defective.

Secondly, everyone else out there has had multiple sex partners. They know something he doesn't, they know what it is like to have sex with different people. _His wife_ knows what it is like to have sex with various other men. _What does she know that he doesn't_? Does she have some sort of advantage over him because of this? Does she have thoughts that he may be defective or Beta compared to the other men (who all presumably had multiple sex partners)?

I deduce from his posts (I've not read all of them yet) that she had a fairly casual attitude about sex with at least some of her previous men. This is a contrast with his views of sex being exclusive and unique _for him_. Perhaps he worries that she doesn't desire him or feel for him the way that he does for her, because of that difference in attitude.

My guess is that OP doesn't judge her as somehow less, rather I suspect he thinks of himself as less because of the disparity in experience.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> My guess is that OP doesn't judge her as somehow less, rather I suspect he thinks of himself as less because of the disparity in experience.


And, it's quite possible that his beliefs from religion, parents, etc., have made him unable to even attempt to ever correct that disparity. It's not, "madonna *****" syndrome. 

My guess is, it's more that he would be afraid that he would think even less of himself, if he ever did try to sleep around to make up for the disparity. This is provided he is single at that time. 

On the flip side, he will never cheat. He might fantasize and dream, but it will not happen unless there are really extreme circumstances. 

Sorry if I projected anything or put words in your mouth, OP. I just want to help you understand, if I can. 

Also, I think you have to look at the dopamine and all the other bonding chemicals in conjunction with a lack of experience. Those who have had more life experience, will know that those chemicals play tricks with your emotions and logical thinking.


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## Orochi (Apr 28, 2014)

> It may be uncomfortable to hear about her past, but this is a situation where it is important for her to discuss it accurately with the medical people.


I don't disagree in the least. It is important that she's open and honest with her doctor and the nurses that represent her. Things only got sticky when she took it from the doctor's office to our social circle.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Thor said:


> I wish I had more time to reply, but I'm behind schedule for work already. This is where his distorted thinking is showing. BTDT myself.
> 
> I can't answer for him but perhaps I can jostle him a bit to think about it and perhaps clarify where his discomfort is coming from.
> 
> ...



I think so. This was me as well.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

norajane said:


> I don't understand why he chose to wait *when he believes it is something to be ashamed about*, and can't look people in the eye if they know he was a virgin at marriage.
> 
> I'd expect a faith-based reason for waiting would not lead to being ashamed about it. I'd expect he'd feel good about it, since he lived up to his faith-based principles. If his wife is "unworthy" becasue she wasn't a virgin, then I'd think he'd be all proud of himself for waiting.
> 
> Yet, he is ashamed.





> *Thor said:* First off (but maybe not the biggest emotional part of it) is the societal presumptions. Men are presumed to be sexual, and it is "normal" for a man to have several sex partners before marriage. A man who doesn't is painted by society at large (movies, magazine articles, websites for men to become more manly, etc) as being Beta, less masculine, and perhaps defective.


Absolutely.....I've seen it on this very forum - women posters here relating a story where she gets alone with the guy (or one of her friends) and his not taking her to bed, suddenly he is *Gay*.. *A BOY*.....next comes the di** size put downs......Oh yeah...that's just not NORMAL today.... plenty of Virgin bashing alive & well.. and if you're a male.. literally... God help you!!

... I can easily understand why Orochi wouldn't want it broadcast...I could site an incident with our oldest (but I won't)... 4 yrs through college.. hasn't bed a woman yet.. (and he's not fat, homely , awkward or any of the like as anyone would automatically assume)....those are his beliefs.....it's the reality...that MANY FEEL THIS IS WHAT MAKES A MAN ...A MAN...

Not like the Philanderers are the more honorable in our society...but you'd think so.. with what we praise.


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## OptimisticPessimist (Jul 26, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I get that many do not care how many previous partners another has.. I really DO.. for me, I don't understand THAT... because I have always felt strongly -wanting these experiences with the Man I marry...I felt that would be very very very special... I also wanted to find young love & marry younger too... 1sts mean something to SOME OF US... does this make us wrong?


Im sure thats a rhetorical question, but just in case its not, it absolutely does not make you wrong. I do 100% appreciate that others have different views.

Everyone has different experiences, and I try to appreciate that everyone brings a certain wisdom I simply cannot possess, and I strive to bring my own.

So much of this seems to me related to formative environment. Women have been fairly aggressive with me ever since I was a kid, and so Ive developed a confidence of sorts with them; looking back reflectively however, I see these encounters were pretty much always by chance/accident. For instance, nearly every place Ive lived, a girl/woman near my age has lived right next door. I have had completely accidental success with women because they misinterpret any timidness as indifference (which ironically reinforces my confidence). Reflecting on the differences between how I "feel" about this situation relative to how others "feel", I can only assume that these happenstance situations have influenced the development of my brain (which neurologically develops against the blueprint of genetics relative to the environment) to where I dont FEEL any of my ego attached to any ONE woman, even if im crazy about her. Does that make sense? Perhaps my IGNORANCE is the reason I dont FEEL this way?

OP, I think this thread is as good for those involved as it is for you  Hopefully it ends on a positive note!



SimplyAmorous said:


> Granted, I can see that neither is going to convince the other of anything or change their philosophy....hence, why I did that thread with the 6 sexual lenses -so people can read those differences ....to what is paramount to each, where we put the most weight, is it marriage (religious constraint many times)... is it pleasure (Plain sex)... it is power/ an ego boost (a measure of this in the hooking up scene).... it is waiting for "the one"...


Im not sure about "convince"; I would agree that I might not be able to "feel" it, or they "feel" how I do. However, I can definitely see that this is beyond just cursory insecurity; what the OP/Thunder7/others feel is very real I do accept. 

Very good point on mentioning the hookup scene being its own ego boost. PLENTY of that everywhere, especially among men. I never understood the conscience being able to accept the risk of pregnancy and disease through spontaneous unprotected sex; this is why Ive always waited until Im in a relationship and the test results are back. 


SimplyAmorous said:


> None are wrong...they are just different. I think you can appreciate this


Absolutely :smthumbup:



SimplyAmorous said:


> I , of course, certainly agree with your thoughts on the societal ills -as we are all picking the pieces up for.... I guess this is your only reason to see any measure of value in it.... at least it is something!....less unplanned babies to those who have no care for each other....less women feeling "used"...these experiences can carry over onto their husbands too....now we can add some RJ to the mix -depending.....oh the list could go on & on -on this account....


Fair points. I would say more pieces are hitting the ground, because I see humanity approaching crisis. It is of course almost cliche that every generation screams the sky is falling, but I do not see the exponential population growth existing since the dawn of the industrial revolution being sustainable for hundreds of more years- something is coming. Famine, disease, war... something will check mankinds exponential growth- its a matter of ecology. The things you mention I personally think are symptoms of our march towards inevitable chaos; even those who remain chaste and marry often end up being perverted by the greed endemic to modern society. 


SimplyAmorous said:


> I listened to the song (I like Hoonastank!)... some of the words here..
> 
> 
> 
> These words make me think of this saying (below)..found in the front of one a Temperament book entitled "*PLease Understand Me*"...I think you would appreciate it OptimisticPessimist... I know it has helped ME open my mind further to EMBRACE others views ...even though, for ME.. I do not feel as they do (just as they think I have hang ups)..... yet I will hold true to myself... in what I believe, how I feel.. what I enjoy..what has brought me personal fulfillment. (added a few thoughts in blue)


As usual SimplyA, you always have a great quote or link!



SimplyAmorous said:


> Notice this said Beliefs....what you believe may not be what I believe but can you prove your belief is superior to my belief.. many times we can not -because our foundation is not the same at all....
> Some are "Moral Relativists"....some Moral Realists... and still some Moral Absolutists... that's why we have so much fun arguing !.. We have those geared more Logical (the thinkers) ...and those more Emotional (these are our "Feelers")....I think wisdom lies somewhere in between -but that is my personal view.


:iagree:
I agree it lies in the middle. "There are multiple sides to every story, and the "truth" most often lies somewhere in the middle".

/end novel


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## OptimisticPessimist (Jul 26, 2010)

norajane said:


> I don't understand why he chose to wait *when he believes it is something to be ashamed about*, and can't look people in the eye if they know he was a virgin at marriage.
> 
> I'd expect a faith-based reason for waiting would not lead to being ashamed about it. I'd expect he'd feel good about it, since he lived up to his faith-based principles. If his wife is "unworthy" becasue she wasn't a virgin, then I'd think he'd be all proud of himself for waiting.
> 
> Yet, he is ashamed.


Again, I cannot agree more. I had to quote it just for posture!


Thor said:


> I understand what you're saying, but that was not what I was getting at. For him, sex is and always was something only experienced with his wife. This makes sex something completely restricted to his relationship with her. No other woman has been permitted to see that part of him. For him, sex = doing it with his wife.
> 
> ...
> 
> If she genuinely cares for him and if she has a healthy attitude about sex, she should understand his emotional responses and she should desire to avoid upsetting him. She should recognize that her behaviors may unintentionally cause him distress and she should desire to change her behaviors.


I trimmed this down to avoid someone else having "scroll fury" 

I think between the OP, Thunder7, and this post, I understand where you guys are coming from. Thanks!

This is a very complex issue for sure. Im not sure we can really come to a solution actually- you cant change a person's past. My approach has been to change the way the OP looked at his wife's past, but as this is a "feeling" im not really sure that logic (either for or against) can really modify what we "feel" in this case. This is as much a matter of genetics and upbringing as anything else.

Orochi, you received some advice I dont agree with earlier and I wish to address it. I will be lambasted by MOST in here for my advice. Please, consider I have nothing to gain by offering it other than to see you and your wife happier together (same applies to those with the advice I dont agree with).

I suggest that you do *NOT* share your insecurities about this with your wife FOR NOW. Please hear me out... 

Any action demonstrating insecurity costs you "feeling capital" in regards to what your wife feels for you. I would try to work through this in whatever way is necessary here and through IC, or else you had better be D-A-M-N sure your marriage is firing on all cylinders before dropping cylinders relating to sexual confidence. This is just my opinion.

I would take some time to consider your marriage and see if everything else feels PERFECT before bringing something like this up. A scan through Coping with Infidelity, General Relationships, etc will show you tons of men who lose their wives due to PROJECTING A LACK OF CONFIDENCE. 

It sucks, I know. Good intentions are not good enough for a woman's feelings- they absolutely must have RESULTS! Maybe not financial or traditional results- you could be an artist she thinks is gifted, a scholar without an audience, etc- but she needs SOMETHING that demonstrates your value. It sounds like the fire is/was there, though I will admit facts have trickled in that suggest there might be danger beneath the surface. I cannot be sure- none of us here can be sure. Only you can really know (and even then, women have a reputation of being hard to anticipate for men in many cases). 

My advice is derived from a few other's opinions: if at all possible, rather than approaching this from the angle of trying to make yourself less insecure in regards to her past, try to approach it from the angle of making yourself MORE CONFIDENT in regards to the fidelity of your chaste past. There is HONOR in having the restraint and discipline to stick to something you believe in.

Even if she does flaunt her sexual past again (and I am with others who think some of her mentions havent been flaunting at all, though others may very well have been), that is a perfect opportunity to FLAUNT YOUR STRENGTH in regards to moral fidelity WITHOUT insulting her. It should be a running joke- an opportunity to tease- an opportunity to flex gaudy bravado for the sake of demonstrating confidence without taking one's self too seriously. 

The next time she does this, laugh. "Good for you hun. I see regardless of your past youve been addicted to my delectable D for 16 years. How do you feel about that dirty girl?" Your words may be entirely something else, but bro, if you can just project CONFIDENCE I would not be surprised to see your relationship only get stronger from this trial.

Good luck man


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

OptimisticPessimist said:


> Again, I cannot agree more. I had to quote it just for posture!
> 
> I trimmed this down to avoid someone else having "scroll fury"
> 
> ...



I don't know why you would be lambasted, I think your advice is very good. I agree 100% that this cannot be approached from an insecurity perspective, at least in his dealings with his wife because as you said, women like confidence. If fact, I think men like confidence too which is why I never advocate dealing with behavior that does make you feel insecure by whining about your feelings. That tips the emotional power scale completely in one direction, and that's what's happened here.

If he's comfortable using the humored approach you're suggesting I think that's great. I myself, as someone that's gotten a lot of this kind of thing from my husband, think it's an issue of disrespect. He's told her he doesn't care for details and she doesn't respect that; I don't care what her motives are. If it's some kind of stupid do you really love me game then maybe she should approach him with her insecurities to they can address them together My suggestion was to get up and walk away, preferably with a sarcastic eye roll, but if he's good with you humor that's great too.


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## OptimisticPessimist (Jul 26, 2010)

lifeistooshort said:


> I don't know why you would be lambasted, I think your advice is very good. I agree 100% that this cannot be approached from an insecurity perspective, at least in his dealings with his wife because as you said, women like confidence. If fact, I think men like confidence too which is why I never advocate dealing with behavior that does make you feel insecure by whining about your feelings. That tips the emotional power scale completely in one direction, and that's what's happened here.
> 
> If he's comfortable using the humored approach you're suggesting I think that's great. I myself, as someone that's gotten a lot of this kind of thing from my husband, think it's an issue of disrespect. He's told her he doesn't care for details and she doesn't respect that; I don't care what her motives are. If it's some kind of stupid do you really love me game then maybe she should approach him with her insecurities to they can address them together My suggestion was to get up and walk away, preferably with a sarcastic eye roll, but if he's good with you humor that's great too.


I usually see statements like "you must be open and honest 100% of the time" and "you shouldnt ever hide things from your spouse" and so forth. While these things are generally true, I do feel there are certain exceptions. At least 1 person agrees with me 

I am absolutely attracted to confident women, though I have met timid ones that were attractive too. I think men are more tolerant of women having insecurities than women are of men having insecurities, and by a LOT. That said, there are a great number of things women are more tolerant of as well. And yeah, I offered my humorous response as that's how Id do it, but it will have to be in his own way; it is good you point that out because it would be really bad to come off as prompted or unnatural.

**EDIT** Case in point: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/175881-i-just-need-tell-someone-2.html#post7658297

I agree with him in this case, but painting it with the "never" brush was a little bold. Is omission of truth deception or dishonesty? One could say yes. At the same time, the idea of holding back insecurity isnt for his benefit at her expense- its for the benefit of BOTH being happy.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Mostlycontent said:


> To rephrase, my position is that we are all children of God, which means that we are unique and special because he made us that way. That is my validation and not some other person.
> 
> Your supposition that I could just validate myself is not probable, for if it was that easy to just decide that I'm of value then I likely wouldn't have any insecurity in the first place. How could or would one validate ones self anyway?


I'm sorry to tell you this, but you took it to the deep end here....


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

OptimisticPessimist said:


> I usually see statements like "you must be open and honest 100% of the time" and "you shouldnt ever hide things from your spouse" and so forth. While these things are generally true, I do feel there are certain exceptions. At least 1 person agrees with me
> 
> I am absolutely attracted to confident women, though I have met timid ones that were attractive too. I think men are more tolerant of women having insecurities than women are of men having insecurities, and by a LOT. That said, there are a great number of things women are more tolerant of as well. And yeah, I offered my humorous response as that's how Id do it, but it will have to be in his own way; it is good you point that out because it would be really bad to come off as prompted or unnatural.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more. I try to share everything with my W but one still needs to be guarded on occasion. I don't need to share every fear and insecurity, particularly if the other spouse may find it unreasonable or unnecessary.

If I had been diagnosed with Cancer on a recent doctor's visit, for example, then of course, I'd share my fears with my W. Everyone in that scenario would be expected to be fearful. It's in sharing other fears and insecurities that one should be more discreet. 

I've shared virtually all of my fears and insecurities with my W now but did so slowly over many years of marriage. We are fully transparent on all these kinds of matters now but I still used great caution along the way. I agree with never diminishing your own worth by coming across as too needy or weak. I've found that over time, many of these have subsided on their own.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

I, too, would caution against sharing every insecurity related to retroactive jealousy. 

The guys with RJ who post here seem to love their wives very much. I doubt they want to make them feel like crap along with them. And it's really easy to make a wife feel like crap because of this issue without intending to.

If you continually express how upset and insecure you feel about your wife's past, she's eventually going to start hearing, "If it weren't for your sl*tty and disgusting behavior in the past, I wouldn't be dying inside all the time like this. It's your fault for being a ho that I feel like this. I'm so much better than you because I wasn't a ho. You aren't worthy of me."

I get it that you wouldn't be saying anything like that to her, and you wouldn't mean anything like that, either, but it will seem quite clear to her that, if she weren't the person that she is and didn't have the history that she does, you WOULD be feeling just fine. 

Keep repeating the same discussion about it over and over and over, and she will internalize it, take it personally, be terribly hurt, start feeling insecure, will start to apologize for her life, will start to think maybe she did do something terribly, unforgivably wrong...and your relationship will end up in the lawyer's office.

Or she'll get upset and angry and feel betrayed by her husband who said he loved HER as she was, and decide it's not worth it to keep defending her sexual history to you. Same result - lawyer's office.

If you need to go over and over and over it, do it with a therapist.


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

Absolutely agree with the last few posts. You can not keep bringing this up. You will tear your wife apart emotionally if you do. I don't think my wife did anything wrong in the past. I have a much more sordid history than she does. Where my problems come from is the fact that she stayed with a cheater makes me feel like he was giving her something she really needs. Something (whatever it was) I feel at times like I can't. I know she chose to work on her marriage and that is a GOOD thing. I've told her over and over that she did the right thing, even if I feel she put up with it for way too long. Despite my telling her this, I know it hurts her when I'm bothered by it. She feels responsibility for my pain, and I never intended that. 

But how do you act like nothing is wrong when you're feeling worthless? How do you not let her know that you feel like you're dying inside? She can read me like a book, and this is the only thing that ever puts me in a funk. So if she knows something is wrong she knows exactly what it is.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Men's groups, therapy, hobbies outside the home. Then, come back to her more at ease and show her you appreciate her. That's one of the biggest reasons to have just men get together. It actually is helpful to the marriage, in most cases, if the group is of married men with similar goals.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

I Don't Know said:


> Absolutely agree with the last few posts. You can not keep bringing this up. You will tear your wife apart emotionally if you do. I don't think my wife did anything wrong in the past. I have a much more sordid history than she does. Where my problems come from is the fact that she stayed with a cheater makes me feel like he was giving her something she really needs. Something (whatever it was) I feel at times like I can't. I know she chose to work on her marriage and that is a GOOD thing. I've told her over and over that she did the right thing, even if I feel she put up with it for way too long. Despite my telling her this, I know it hurts her when I'm bothered by it. She feels responsibility for my pain, and I never intended that.
> 
> *But how do you act like nothing is wrong when you're feeling worthless? How do you not let her know that you feel like you're dying inside? She can read me like a book, and this is the only thing that ever puts me in a funk. So if she knows something is wrong she knows exactly what it is.*
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


You work on finding outlets for your feelings that don't involve sitting around the house in a funk where she can't help but notice and you can't help but dwell on it. You get up and go to the gym, or clean the garage. You take up kick-boxing and let it out there. Plan a vacation, take a bubble bath - it doesn't matter what. Refocus your mind, move your body.

From what I understand, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) is helpful for people with OCD and anxiety issues. It focuses on concrete things you can DO, rather than talk therapy. Maybe it would also be helpful with RJ.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

DoF said:


> I'm sorry to tell you this, but you took it to the deep end here....


That's okay because I'm a very good swimmer.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

I'm a little confused. I thought it was his wife who kept bringing it up. Sounds like he's the one that doesn't want to hear about her past sexual partners. I think the next time she brings it he should say something like..well let's just say I don't think he should avoid insulting her. To the contrary she's had 16 years to learn not to talk about this shet in front of him. Next time she does he should unload on her.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

nuclearnightmare said:


> I'm a little confused. I thought it was his wife who kept bringing it up. Sounds like he's the one that doesn't want to hear about her past sexual partners. I think the next time she brings it he should say something like..well let's just say I don't think he should avoid insulting her. To the contrary she's had 16 years to learn not to talk about this shet in front of him. Next time she does he should unload on her.


He admitted that she hadn't brought it up in years, not until 8 or 9 months ago when she had her medical issues and talked with a nurse friend.

Or, as he said, she hadn't brought it up out of what he termed as "malice" in years, but out of "fear" when she had health concerns.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Well it all depends on why she brings it up and how she brings it up. In one post OP says she brought it up in their social circles after the dr. visit. So it was reasonable for her to bring it up at the doc's office, but why and how did she tell their friends about it?

It doesn't have to be some big confrontation with her. If she takes it as some kind of **** shaming then that is in her own mind not his. No guy wants his wife to reminisce about her previous lovers. Yes we humans do naturally remember things when an association comes up (our kids go to prom, we remember our prom). But those should be rare when it comes to previous lovers. And we should be mindful that our spouse doesn't want to hear about it even when it is one of those rare normal rememberances.

OP's wife may simply not be aware of his discomfort. She may not experience such discomfort, and in this marriage it is never an issue for her because OP doesn't have other lovers to remember.

If in a normal situation she mentions past lovers, he could simply tell her that husbands don't like hearing about their wive's previous lovers. If she thinks this is **** shaming then she is not responding reasonably.

If she continues to mention past lovers then it becomes an issue of either thoughtlessness or callousness or perhaps intentional offensiveness on her part.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Thor said:


> Well it all depends on why she brings it up and how she brings it up. In one post OP says she brought it up in their social circles after the dr. visit. So it was reasonable for her to bring it up at the doc's office, but why and how did she tell their friends about it?
> 
> It doesn't have to be some big confrontation with her. If she takes it as some kind of **** shaming then that is in her own mind not his. No guy wants his wife to reminisce about her previous lovers. Yes we humans do naturally remember things when an association comes up (our kids go to prom, we remember our prom). But those should be rare when it comes to previous lovers. And we should be mindful that our spouse doesn't want to hear about it even when it is one of those rare normal rememberances.
> 
> ...


My wife used to like bringing up her sexual past with me and in conversation with friends... thought it was funny.

Turned out she was trying to get a rise out of me or make me jealous. Talking about it yielded nothing but insults and laughter.

I was always very reticent about my past, which is quite checkered and littered with women. So after 2-3 years of dealing with her BS I opened up. Did what she did. 

We left parties with her in tears, we would have times where we wouldn't speak for days because of her jealousy and insecurity. I let loose with MAYBE 10% of the kind of graphic disclosure that she would laughingly throw out there.

Only then did she get the point and shut up about her ex's.

For me, I tried everything else. Tried showing her how upset it made me. Tried asking politely to stop. Tried telling her how embarrassing it was. All of it -- and I mean all of it -- ended up with her mocking me.

Only by my putting my exes in her face did it stop.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Thor said:


> Well it all depends on why she brings it up and how she brings it up. In one post OP says she brought it up in their social circles after the dr. visit. So it was reasonable for her to bring it up at the doc's office, but why and how did she tell their friends about it?


She told her friend about it, her friend who is a nurse. If I had a nurse friend, I'd be telling her all about my medical issues that are freaking me out, hoping to get some reassurance that I'm not going to die from cervical cancer, which is what abnormal Pap smears tend to mean.

She wasn't reminiscing about her previous lovers - she was discussing how she might have gotten HPV.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

norajane said:


> I, too, would caution against sharing every insecurity related to retroactive jealousy.
> 
> The guys with RJ who post here seem to love their wives very much. I doubt they want to make them feel like crap along with them. And it's really easy to make a wife feel like crap because of this issue without intending to.


I don't think we have enough data to know if this is simple RJ or not. And, for a man who has only ever been with his wife but the wife has numerous previous lovers (some of which were casual), the issue isn't necessarily RJ at all. It doesn't have to be the particular previous lover at all, it is this real or perceived disparity in attitudes about sex which triggers him.

He may not be insecure in the least about his marriage or her fidelity, but he may be insecure about himself.

She may be intentionally prodding him at times. She may or may not be intending to inflict distress. She might just think it's fun joking. Or, she might be intending to cause pain for some reason. OP hasn't given specifics for us to analyze her motives.

She probably has no way of understanding his position, and she may have actually ridiculed him when he's brought it up. This could be a one time learning event for him, it was for me. Which is why I recommend trying to talk about it in a non-confrontational way. All she really needs to know is that when she does X it hurts her husband. And thus she needs to stop doing X. It isn't a lot to ask that she not flaunt her previous lovers.

This does not get better over time. It revisits every time she mentions a previous lover, and it deepens the wound. I learned to STFU about it with my wife after being ridiculed. I said nothing for years, when I really should have shut her down from the beginning. She eventually crossed a line, wanting to put a special item from her first lover in our bedroom, and I said no not in the bedroom. She shamed me for it. Though she removed the item from the bedroom it now holds a central place in her office.

He does not have to suffer through her insensitivity. If she needs to learn to STFU about her previous lovers, it is a seemingly minor thing for her to do. But, if she is for some reason intentionally saying things to irritate him or publicly embarrass him, there is a deeper problem. I am a proponent of solving the minor problems and discovering if there are bigger problems.

I don't want to go too far with this, because we really don't know many details. There are some hints of things in his posts which worry me but he hasn't given enough for me to take it down that road.

It really could be fairly simple that she doesn't understand his perspective, and with a calm short discussion she could come to see that she is being hurtful and should stop talking about previous lovers. We would tell any spouse on TAM to stop talking about previous lovers, right? It is a distraction from the marriage to keep thinking about and talking about other lovers.

It isn't about shaming her for having previous sex partners, it is simply that in a marriage the overwhelming focus is on your spouse, and we respect our spouse by not discussing previous lovers except very rarely (such as the doc's office event).


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

norajane said:


> She told her friend about it, her friend who is a nurse. If I had a nurse friend, I'd be telling her all about my medical issues that are freaking me out, hoping to get some reassurance that I'm not going to die from cervical cancer, which is what abnormal Pap smears tend to mean.
> 
> She wasn't reminiscing about her previous lovers - she was discussing how she might have gotten HPV.


I agree that this event was totally ok. He said that she then took it to their social circles. I don't really understand what happened with that part of it. Was it just the nurse who knew or did it go further than that?


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Thor said:


> I agree that this event was totally ok. He said that she then took it to their social circles. I don't really understand what happened with that part of it. Was it just the nurse who knew or did it go further than that?


Honestly, I'm not sure. I'm not sure if that was recent or in the past. His posts have been all over the place, and he started out saying one thing, and then, once he'd thought about it some more, realized that she hadn't really been bringing up exes in the past few years. 

I think this event with her Pap smear and her nurse friend probably triggered him again from their past when she had been bringing up her exes.

But I could be wrong. This is a long thread, lol.


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## Thunder7 (Jan 2, 2013)

norajane said:


> I, too, would caution against sharing every insecurity related to retroactive jealousy.
> 
> The guys with RJ who post here seem to love their wives very much. I doubt they want to make them feel like crap along with them. And it's really easy to make a wife feel like crap because of this issue without intending to.
> 
> ...


:iagree: Bingo.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Yep it's the only answer and solution here.

Get these thoughts completely out of your mind. Never think about it. Don't discuss it.

Set your mind to "do not know/want to know about the past".


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

OP,

Why not concentrate on becoming the best sexual partner she has ever had. That will build your confidence, and give you and her a lot of pleasure. A win-win-win situation.

Take workshops, courses, watch the Kama Sutra in great detail.
There is enough material available. 

Work on the bedroom experience making it into your personal Boudoir. 
Light, music, scents, massage oils, lingerie. The Works.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

Thor said:


> I don't think we have enough data to know if this is simple RJ or not. And, for a man who has only ever been with his wife but the wife has numerous previous lovers (some of which were casual), the issue isn't necessarily RJ at all. It doesn't have to be the particular previous lover at all, it is this real or perceived disparity in attitudes about sex which triggers him.
> 
> He may not be insecure in the least about his marriage or her fidelity, but he may be insecure about himself.
> 
> ...


This is good stuff, Thor, and I agree. The disparity of sexual attitude between OP and his W is what stands out to me as well. It seems that one, OP in this case, is more committed than the other, OP's wife.

It's the commitment level that I might question as well if it were me because OP, on the surface anyway, is more invested than his W. He's brought forth his mind, body and soul for the relationship while his W has only brought her mind and soul. She does not have her body to present because she lost her virginity prior to the relationship.

What I'm trying to articulate, and perhaps not very well, is that there is a degree of commitment and ownership, investment if you will, that each party brings to the partnership. It appears that they are unevenly invested in this partnership. One has presented everything they own while the other only has two thirds of what they have to invest.

Hope that makes sense but I picked up on that too. I don't think that is RJ at all. I do think that OP has RJ issues but this particular point is not one IMO.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

marduk said:


> My wife used to like bringing up her sexual past with me and in conversation with friends... thought it was funny.
> 
> Turned out she was trying to get a rise out of me or make me jealous. Talking about it yielded nothing but insults and laughter.
> 
> ...


Wow, that's hard core but I guess you do what you have to do. Good for you.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Mostlycontent said:


> It's the commitment level that I might question as well if it were me because OP, on the surface anyway, is more invested than his W. He's brought forth his mind, body and soul for the relationship while his W has only brought her mind and soul. She does not have her body to present because she lost her virginity prior to the relationship.
> 
> What I'm trying to articulate, and perhaps not very well, is that there is a degree of commitment and ownership, investment if you will, that each party brings to the partnership. It appears that they are unevenly invested in this partnership.


I don't think it has to do with her not being a virgin. I may be projecting my own situation too much into his, but for me it isn't that my wife had other sex partners, it is that she seems to have much less invested into sex with me than she did with others.

Recently in cleaning out a closet I came across an old photo album of hers, which included a photo of her with her date at the senior prom. No big deal. It didn't bother me in the least. I don't even know which of her boyfriends this one was, but I know she was quite sexual with him, and I know there was sex that night.

No big deal, it was a normal part of most people's high school experience.

But now when we are walking with our kids on the boardwalk on our summer vacation she randomly brings up how her boyfriend(s) would take her there and win her prizes from the arcades. She tells me they used to have sex under the boardwalk on the beach in daylight. So there is an example of the appearance of a disparity in how she values sex with me vs sex with her former bf's. She is there with me yet she is thinking of them. She had fun doing those things with them but she can't manage to have sex with me except at 10pm on a Saturday night after she's had a few drinks.

This is where I think OP has issues. His wife says something which makes him feel less valued as a sex partner than some of her previous lovers. Either he feels she thinks less of him because he was a virgin (and the other guys weren't so perhaps she views them as more masculine), or he feels she thinks less of him because she says something positive about her past experiences without having said more positive things about her experiences with OP.

These feelings of his may or may not be justified by how she truly feels about him. Nevertheless if he has these kinds of ego crises it is a real experience for him which is damaging him and damaging the marriage. He should get to the root of what bothers him and why. He should also attempt to make her aware of her behavior which bothers him, so that she can change her behavior.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Thor said:


> I don't think it has to do with her not being a virgin. I may be projecting my own situation too much into his, but for me it isn't that my wife had other sex partners, it is that she seems to have much less invested into sex with me than she did with others.
> 
> Recently in cleaning out a closet I came across an old photo album of hers, which included a photo of her with her date at the senior prom. No big deal. It didn't bother me in the least. I don't even know which of her boyfriends this one was, but I know she was quite sexual with him, and I know there was sex that night.
> 
> ...




Wow that's good stuff.


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## Orochi (Apr 28, 2014)

> I think this event with her Pap smear and her nurse friend probably triggered him again from their past when she had been bringing up her exes.


That's exactly it. I may have overreacted. I know my posts have been all over the place. I don't mean for them to be. I've just never had a positive outlet for the negative feelings. Getting to vent has really made quite an explosion of pent up feelings.



> Why not concentrate on becoming the best sexual partner she has ever had. That will build your confidence, and give you and her a lot of pleasure. A win-win-win situation.


Is it okay to brag a little? Because, we _do_ have some fantastic nekked time. :smthumbup: And, I can confidently say that I give her pleasure like no other man could. She's been less vocal about that, probably not wanting to trigger me.



> This is where I think OP has issues. His wife says something which makes him feel less valued as a sex partner than some of her previous lovers. Either he feels she thinks less of him because he was a virgin (and the other guys weren't so perhaps she views them as more masculine), or he feels she thinks less of him because she says something positive about her past experiences without having said more positive things about her experiences with OP.


It's the latter.


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## Orochi (Apr 28, 2014)

When she and I first met, she was everything and I mean EVERYTHING I wanted in a woman except her sexual past. I was a pimple-faced 19-y-o kid that had no idea where he was going. I'd made some tough decisions in life, but you know as well as I do that our brains aren't fully formed at that age. I needed a virgin and very much did not get one. But you know what? *I don't need a virgin anymore.* And at this point, my wife is way more of what I want and need in a woman than she was even back then. 

Yes, there were frequent times that she would casually mention her experiences in passing. There were others when she would spout them off at me angrily. There were a couple of occasions that she made fun of me for my lack of experience. You have all made some excellent suggestions as to why her past hurt me. And, the validation is just what I've been needing. Early in our marriage, when she would talk casually about past experiences it was painful for many of the reasons you've suggested and then some. 

In addition to everything else, probably the most painful was that she didn't see herself as valuable and she was so precious to me. She'd been used and abused, taken advantage of, and treated as a party favor by these men, and she just didn't think that she was worth any more than to deserve that. It's not all that she was a wild girl so much as her behavior was self-destructive. Some of the experiences she described to me were probably simple promiscuity, but others were at best questionable on the point of consent. She didn't call it rape at the time, but her recounts weren't exactly gray area material either. I didn't tell her that I thought she'd been raped. How do you tell that to someone you love anyway? I valued her so much that it killed me that she A) would be treated like that by anyone and B) that she didn't feel any more valuable than that.

Things were actually going pretty smooth-sailing with us when the issue of her childhood molestation came up five or so years ago. It had been a family member, and she had a bit of an epiphany about her past. She had to get a lot of stuff off her chest at that point. With no other outside influence, she actually came to terms with the fact that she'd been raped multiple times. There were many painful things that she'd told me before that she flat out contradicted at this point, some with alternatively painful things. Frankly, one of the reasons that I'm resistant to hearing any more about her past is I don't know what's true and what's not, given all the contradictions I've heard, and neither side of the contradiction is pleasant. Can you say triggers? Still, I felt like I needed to be strong and supportive for her, so I didn't let her know exactly how painful it was for me, but just remained backup for her as she worked through it all.

I thought I was alright until a few triggering events in the last couple of years, one of which was the whole medical thing that I mentioned earlier in the thread. Of course we were both scared s**tless. I didn't want cancer to take my best friend and lover, the most important person in the world to me. The thought that her long lost past might rear its ugly head to destroy our future by way of her health was horrifying to her. Looking back on it, it was awful of me to react poorly to her talking about her past again then, even if it did hurt. 

I have long guarded my wife from all of my negative feelings about this so as to not hurt her, but consequently have never had a chance to sort this all out. Folks, your support has allowed me that chance, and I can see now that *she's not the problem*. Granted, there was a time that she once was, but that's long past. At this point, the problem is all in my head. Having come to this conclusion, step back and look at it, and I have an AWESOME marriage that anyone should envy. Her past is ancient history that shouldn't affect either of us, but I've been torturing myself with it.

Gah, this was hard to write. I was streaming tears like a big ol' p***y by paragraph three. This post is a little long, but I hope that it makes more sense than the original post. It feels like it's all making more sense to me, if that means anything.


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

Keep being there for her. I understand the feelings of how could she let herself be treated that way. It's all from the abuse. It's hard to remember that sometimes, I know. I don't know if some counceling would help YOU deal with her past. I know when I know something bad happened to my W in the past, I feel like it's happening to her right now except I can't do anyting to stop it. It's a very powerless feeling to know you can't protect the ones you love. Even if it's in the past, I still feel like I failed to protect her. It makes no sense, but it is what it is.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

I Don't Know said:


> Keep being there for her. I understand the feelings of how could she let herself be treated that way. It's all from the abuse. It's hard to remember that sometimes, I know. I don't know if some counceling would help YOU deal with her past. * I know when I know something bad happened to my W in the past, I feel like it's happening to her right now except I can't do anyting to stop it. It's a very powerless feeling to know you can't protect the ones you love. Even if it's in the past, I still feel like I failed to protect her. It makes no sense, but it is what it is.*



Same here.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Orochi said:


> When she and I first met, she was everything and I mean EVERYTHING I wanted in a woman except her sexual past. I was a pimple-faced 19-y-o kid that had no idea where he was going. I'd made some tough decisions in life, but you know as well as I do that our brains aren't fully formed at that age. I needed a virgin and very much did not get one. But you know what? *I don't need a virgin anymore.* And at this point, my wife is way more of what I want and need in a woman than she was even back then.
> 
> Yes, there were frequent times that she would casually mention her experiences in passing. There were others when she would spout them off at me angrily. There were a couple of occasions that she made fun of me for my lack of experience. You have all made some excellent suggestions as to why her past hurt me. And, the validation is just what I've been needing. Early in our marriage, when she would talk casually about past experiences it was painful for many of the reasons you've suggested and then some.
> 
> ...



Sounds the same as mine. I believe it's the reason and not having a father that mine sometimes feels comforted with male attention.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

The abuse angle fits in.

It is not all in your head, btw. Being a Secondary Survivor is hell itself. There are many facets to the situation overall, including the abuse but also including the basic differences in views on sexuality.

My wife, also an abuse survivor, does not understand male sexuality at all. Not from an emotional standpoint. She actually has said that she thought sex for men was simply a physiological need to "spurt it out", akin to a physiological need to drink water or sleep or go to the bathroom.

I think this reflects her own views too. When a girl is exposed to sexuality at a very young age they never learn about sex or relationships in a normal fashion. A child just does not have the perspective to understand what is happening, and the events (including how others react to the abuse) wire her brain differently than had she been exposed to sexuality as a teen in normal circumstances.

Your wife likely has a fairly distorted view of sexuality, male sexuality, and emotional connection.

For many survivors of childhood sex abuse they learn that sex is what gets them attention and approval. Sexual activity isn't about the pleasure or the emotional intimacy for her, it is about getting approval and possibly status. There are rewards for her but they are different than for you.

Your value system and you being a virgin means that you have a very different outlook on sex in general, and you experience sex with her in particular very differently than she experiences it.

Has she had good trauma therapy?

I think it is fair for you to explain to her when she does something which bothers you, especially if she is repeatedly doing it. If she is ridiculing you to others, she needs to know it is destructive to the relationship. This has nothing to do with a superiority of your value system, it has to do with normal wounds to you.

I've used the Prom example numerous times for a reason. I don't want to ever hear about the details of my wife's prom nights, but I don't have any disgust or moral outrage over what she did those nights. This is just normal. Your wife would not want to hear you talking about all the wonderful memories you have of times you spent with girls you felt deeply in love with.

Do you think she would be receptive to discussing how you feel about all of this? How do you think she would react if you told her that you find it hurtful when she mentions previous boyfriends in positive ways but doesn't indicate to you that she feels you are sexually (or romantically or masculinely?) attractive and superior?


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## Happyfamily (Apr 15, 2014)

Orochi said:


> When I was young, I was taught that I should save myself for marriage.


Me too. So, being raped at age 8 this left me with a question I never got to ask. (What if I was raped?) Because asking that question automatically identified me as a lowly non-virgin.


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## OptimisticPessimist (Jul 26, 2010)

Happyfamily said:


> Me too. So, being raped at age 8 this left me with a question I never got to ask. (What if I was raped?) Because asking that question automatically identified me as a lowly non-virgin.




That's bullsh!t! Im really sorry you have to ask that question. Im assuming you mean that happened to you at age 8...

I would answer that saving yourself is by choice, and thus any choice forced upon you by a rapist does not mean you havent saved yourself for marriage.

I hope whoever it was has had a terrible, miserable, and meaningless life, because they dont deserve happiness; happiness is earned by a positive relationship to the environment- rapists need not apply.

Dont give the as*hole the satisfaction of getting you down- he/she isnt worth your happiness!!


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Orochi said:


> At this point, the problem is all in my head. Having come to this conclusion, step back and look at it, and I have an AWESOME marriage that anyone should envy. Her past is ancient history that shouldn't affect either of us, but I've been torturing myself with it.


It is completely understandable, all of us would question ourselves in such a big difference in history of partners and experiences.

I am happy you are feeling better now and can see what you have instead of what you perceived to have lost (by not having had these experiences too).

But why not look at yourself proud, because at a young age you decided to follow a path, not many men could have walked, and you did it! It shows a strength of character that is quite unique.

Probably these things attracted her to you, and that has been good for her, I have no doubt about that. You are good for her. You have to see yourself on a higher level than that of sexual acts. See some of the modern movies about sexual history of people, to understand that the experiences may be not attractive at all to people having a more 'normal' lifestyle. Living the grand lifestyle that the independent people do we are jealous off, may actually be the shining facade for a dark, lonely, hurting soul.

You did it different, and I would say, much, much better. Be proud of your determination and aim for new goals in your life. I think you can do anything you want, just because of your choices in the past.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Orochi said:


> I have long guarded my wife from all of my negative feelings about this so as to not hurt her, but consequently have never had a chance to sort this all out. Folks, your support has allowed me that chance, and I can see now that *she's not the problem*. Granted, there was a time that she once was, but that's long past. At this point, the problem is all in my head. Having come to this conclusion, step back and look at it, and I have an AWESOME marriage that anyone should envy. Her past is ancient history that shouldn't affect either of us, but I've been torturing myself with it.


Her past in terms of her abuse will always affect her. Always.

But you are correct that her sexual experiences do not reflect her feelings for you. In that way her past is not a threat to you. Her having previous lovers does not make you less desirable to her.

I said in an earlier post I was going to hold back, but since you mentioned her abuse it confirmed my suspicions at the time.

There is a good correlation with sex abuse survivors pairing up with Nice Guys. It is generally true that we pair up with someone of similar levels of dysfunction. I think there is a good chance you have some of the characteristics of a Nice Guy, especially in the realm of sexuality. You might benefit from reading the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. Robert Glover.

Your situation is unfortunately quite common if you do have some NG traits. Nice Guys and sex abuse survivors seem to pair up. Not only are you a Secondary Survivor, but your Nice attributes tend to drive you to take on burdens which are not yours. In this case you would be suppressing your own needs and emotions because you don't want to burden your wife. There have been many times I've shed tears over my wife's abuse and how it robbed her of a normal life. She lost so much, and she'll never understand why she cannot be happy. However this is not a reason for a husband to give up his _self_ or his sanity.

It is easy to err too far on the side of being kind to your wife rather than challenging her to behave more thoughtfully of you. It isn't fair at all to her what was done to her, and thus these long term psychological effects she suffers are also completely unfair. But keep in mind that you are suffering now too as a result of the abuser's actions. I have an image in my mind of this long black lightening bolt reaching out from the distant past to touch me with its evil. It is not fair to you to take on all this suffering either.

Because your wife seems to be able to discuss the abuse and also her sexual history, I think she may be able to deal with discussing how you are affected by it. There are two parts to your triggers. 

First would be the natural male ego things: I don't want to hear about her past sexual escapades, because I want her to be thinking about sexual escapades with *me* not about other men. As a Nice Guy you may be more sensitive than average to this, but it is still a normal thing. Also as a virgin you are more sensitive to this than average, which is also still a normal thing.

Secondly, her abuse history almost certainly has created a two-sided view of sex. Sex with boyfriends is desirable. It may be exciting. It is probably empowering. It may give her a sense of being valued by men, or a sense of status. This is not altogether normal or healthy, it derives from her observations as a young child that she is valued for her body parts. But even more unhealthy is that sex with her husband can be emotionally very difficult. If her abuser was an adult male relative, so is her husband an adult male relative. She may not even realize it, but on some level she may put you in the same category as her abuser (adult male relative). Adding to that, you have been in a very long term relationship with her, so you may have unknowingly done things which triggered her memories of her abuse. For my wife one such trigger is kissing. Boyfriend kissing is fine, but as we got close to the wedding it became very difficult for her to kiss me. I had no idea, but I was triggering her every time I tried to kiss her.

So, she may indeed have a very different emotional response to sex with you compared to with boyfriends before. You may have noticed a difference in her from before you were married compared to afterwards. Your gut feeling may be that she responds differently, more cheerfully or less restrained, when the topic of sex involves other than you. My wife seems quite normal when sex is a topic on a tv show or movie. She'll laugh at situations or jokes. Yet if I get at all suggestive or try to joke with her she immediately becomes stiff and guarded.

I notice that. And it makes me feel like she doesn't have any value for sex with me.

To some extent it is true but in a twisted way due to her abuse. If your wife has similar effects from her abuse then you can never expect your wife to express the same level of carefree attitude about sex with you compared to sex with other men. Now here's a key point - if your wife were to divorce you and marry one of those other men, she would immediately revert to being with him exactly like she is with you. That is, he would no longer be the boyfriend, he would be the husband, and thus she would treat him the way she does you.

Regardless, it is wrong of her to parade her previous love life in front of you, and it is especially wrong of her to shame you for your lack of experience. She may not be able to understand your position at all, but she should be able to respect your emotions and therefor learn to not bring up her past lovers unnecessarily in a cavalier or hurtful way.

Being a secondary survivor sucks. Being a Nice Guy who is also a Secondary Survivor is a special form of earthly h3ll.


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## lancaster (Dec 2, 2013)

Well OP let me try and put your situation in perspective. I once had a GF(almost married her, but she dumped me) who had literally slept with several hundred men in our town. 

I learned really quickly how to deal with trust and jealousy issues. I said 'ok, I am powerless over people, places and things. Se is not perfect and neither am I and that is ok. I am going to let her be the woman she is today and not hold her past against her. I know also that since I have been with her she has never given me a reason to not trust her. Instead she has shown how trustworthy she is and above all I love her and she loves me and that is what really matters. Thanks God for putting this amazing woman in my life.'

We would walk down the street and would regularly get a knowing wink or smile from some former lover. She slept with a local judge, cops, and all manner of other people. The most she slept with was 13 guys at one time. Pulled a train.

I was neither the best in bed that she had been with, nor did I have the biggest penis. But she loved me, of that I was certain. Oh and she was also beautiful.
In saying that she was also the sweetest, most gentle and kindest woman I ever knew. She was forgiving, honest and I could speak to her about anything. I would have gladly married her, but my career got in the way. Today she is married to a good man and they have 4 kids. She is loyal and trustworthy.

Your problem is not your wife, it is you. You knew what she was like, so go get counseling and give,your false pride a rest, she deserves better than to be judged. Let God be tu
He judge do her past, not you.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

lancaster said:


> Well OP let me try and put your situation in perspective. I once had a GF(almost married her, but she dumped me) who had literally slept with several hundred men in our town.
> 
> I learned really quickly how to deal with trust and jealousy issues. I said 'ok, I am powerless over people, places and things. Se is not perfect and neither am I and that is ok. I am going to let her be the woman she is today and not hold her past against her. I know also that since I have been with her she has never given me a reason to not trust her. Instead she has shown how trustworthy she is and above all I love her and she loves me and that is what really matters. Thanks God for putting this amazing woman in my life.'
> 
> ...


That's all fine and dandy, but you hit perhaps the biggest misunderstanding in RJ...judgement is often the last thing going through ones mind...


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## lancaster (Dec 2, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> That's all fine and dandy, but you hit perhaps the biggest misunderstanding in RJ...judgement is often the last thing going through ones mind...


That may be true, but the OP is certainly judging. I brought up religion as it plays a big part in the OPs life. Whether he is thinking about RJ or not foes not really matter, my point is that he is judging his wife IMO somewhat unfairly, especially since he knew what she was like before they got married.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

lancaster said:


> Well OP let me try and put your situation in perspective. I once had a GF(almost married her, but she dumped me) who had literally slept with several hundred men in our town.
> 
> I learned really quickly how to deal with trust and jealousy issues. I said 'ok, I am powerless over people, places and things. Se is not perfect and neither am I and that is ok. I am going to let her be the woman she is today and not hold her past against her. I know also that since I have been with her she has never given me a reason to not trust her. Instead she has shown how trustworthy she is and above all I love her and she loves me and that is what really matters. Thanks God for putting this amazing woman in my life.'
> 
> ...


Several hundred? Staggering! How did it feel to walk past so many she had shared herself with ?How many did she cheat on you with?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

lancaster said:


> Well OP let me try and put your situation in perspective. I once had a GF(almost married her, but she dumped me) who had literally slept with several hundred men in our town.
> 
> I learned really quickly how to deal with trust and jealousy issues. I said 'ok, I am powerless over people, places and things. Se is not perfect and neither am I and that is ok. I am going to let her be the woman she is today and not hold her past against her. I know also that since I have been with her she has never given me a reason to not trust her. Instead she has shown how trustworthy she is and above all I love her and she loves me and that is what really matters. Thanks God for putting this amazing woman in my life.'
> 
> ...


Even I'll say several hundred is too many.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

WhiteRaven said:


> Even I'll say several hundred is too many.




I tend to agree with you. Any woman or man for that matter that sleeps with that many people has some huge underlying self esteem issues, among other things I'm sure.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

OptimisticPessimist said:


> Liking this post was not enough; I agree 105%.
> 
> All of this is subjective opinion, not objective fact; "right" and "wrong" or "clean" and "dirty" are all just conceptual labels we attach to energy-state expectations created by various social spheres, and this is why values vary by culture. Only science and mathematics can delve into the realm of objective fact, and even that is arguable and constantly re-examined.
> 
> I do understand feelings Thunder7 talked about, but even he who feels the affect of such subjective belief structures attempts to move past it.


EVERY belief system is subjective to a great extent. The RJ sufferer AND yours. Those who want a partner with few sexual partners and those who don't give a hoot. Both subjective. And yet it seems only one side gets slammed for having "subjective" beliefs. How come? Where's the tolerance?


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## Placeboni (Sep 10, 2010)

Orochi said:


> Sorry DoF. When this started spilling out, I had a really hard time organizing my thoughts. At its most basic my issue is this:
> 
> She was my first. I was very much not her first, and she won't let me forget it. Even though she knows it pains me to hear her revisit her past, she still mentions her previous exploits. Every time I think that we can let the past go and just be us, she'll bring it back up and all my nasty thoughts and feelings come flooding back. I saw others expressing jealousy of their spouses' past here and it's been quite cathartic. I thought I'd give it a go and see if that helped me deal with my feelings.


I haven't read further posts after this one, so I apologise if I'm completely off the mark with what I say...
I am not condoning her bringing up her past if it hurts you, I'm really not (just talking about it is fine, being honest etc, but constantly bringing it up to hurt you is cruel. 
I have to say though, I've done this in the past, and it was purposefully to make my spouse jeaous, because HE had made me jealous (yes, petty, but I was young.. )
So I just wonder if that's why she does it.. because you don't make her feel attractive, or she's insecure, or something like that? Not that it would be OK in that circumstance anyway, but it might explain it...


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## Happyfamily (Apr 15, 2014)

OptimisticPessimist said:


> I would answer that saving yourself is by choice, and thus any choice forced upon you by a rapist does not mean you havent saved yourself for marriage.


As an adolescent we were told how horrible it was that Muslim girls who got raped were executed by their family members out of shame. So this little girl was thinking, Okay - this is something that will get you killed in some countries whereas in others you are just "ruined" for life.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

lancaster said:


> That may be true, but the OP is certainly judging. I brought up religion as it plays a big part in the OPs life. Whether he is thinking about RJ or not foes not really matter, my point is that he is judging his wife IMO somewhat unfairly, especially since he knew what she was like before they got married.


I can't speak for the OP, but my situation is very similar to his in many ways and I think I have similar feelings as he does when my wife brings up her past.

It isn't judgment about her past being bad in some way at all. It is the conclusion or the gut feeling that she has a very different value about sex with me than she does/did about sex with other men. Something is _different_ in her behaviors which subtly or overtly indicate she considers sex with me very different, and not in a flattering way.

The sex abuse angle is a confounder and in fact explains a lot of it. No, I did not know of her abuse for the first 29 years of our marriage. I don't recall if the OP said he knew before the marriage of her abuse history.

Nevertheless, there is in fact a difference in her behaviors with other men before me and her behaviors with me once we got serious.

OP has indicated a similar impression he has of his wife's view of sex with him vs her view of sex with others. I don't believe OP is judging his wife's past as being bad character.


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## lancaster (Dec 2, 2013)

treyvion said:


> Several hundred? Staggering! How did it feel to walk past so many she had shared herself with ?How many did she cheat on you with?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Initially I was insanely jealous, but after a while I began to realize that being jealous was a waste to time and energy. She never, ever gave me a reason not to trust her. I could either get upset whenever we walked down the street, or I could focus on how she treated me. 

As far as I know she never cheated in me. She never lied to me and was totally honest from me from the first day I met her. I learned quite quickly to keep my mouth shut when it came to questioning her about her past exploits that I really did not want to know the answer to. She was truly an amazing lady.

While our engagement did not last, our time together really helped me in subsequent relationships.


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## Orochi (Apr 28, 2014)

Even though the weekend with my family was lovely, I've been anxious to get back to this thread. Whether she is reacting to my new attitude or maybe something else going on with her, my wife is becoming quite the animal in bed lately. :smthumbup: I want to not be bothered by whatever history or disparity or anything, but if this is another side effect, I'll take it! 



> It is not all in your head, btw. Being a Secondary Survivor is hell itself. There are many facets to the situation overall, including the abuse but also including the basic differences in views on sexuality.


Thank you. I will have to reconsider my stance here.



> Has she had good trauma therapy?


No she has not. I really wish she would. I might bring it up and encourage her to find someone to talk to. Still, the very act of outing her abuser seemed to be incredibly therapeutic for her. She is so much more balanced and peaceful now than before.



> Me too. So, being raped at age 8 this left me with a question I never got to ask. (What if I was raped?) Because asking that question automatically identified me as a lowly non-virgin.





> That's bullsh!t! Im really sorry you have to ask that question. Im assuming you mean that happened to you at age 8...
> 
> I would answer that saving yourself is by choice, and thus any choice forced upon you by a rapist does not mean you havent saved yourself for marriage.
> 
> I hope whoever it was has had a terrible, miserable, and meaningless life, because they dont deserve happiness; happiness is earned by a positive relationship to the environment- rapists need not apply.


Agreed.  100%. I recently learned that Phoenix's original abuser has medical issues that cause him constant pain. It was suggested that we keep him in our prayers and hope that his upcoming surgery to correct his condition is a success. I confessed that his chronic pain warms the cackles of my cold, black heart, and that I feel that he deserves every minute of pain that he experiences. I know that's wrong of me. She says she has forgiven him, but I've had a hard time doing the same.



> But why not look at yourself proud, because at a young age you decided to follow a path, not many men could have walked, and you did it! It shows a strength of character that is quite unique.


Thank you. I'm trying.



> For my wife one such trigger is kissing. Boyfriend kissing is fine, but as we got close to the wedding it became very difficult for her to kiss me. I had no idea, but I was triggering her every time I tried to kiss her.


Oh, that's got to be difficult! 



> You may have noticed a difference in her from before you were married compared to afterwards.


The first couple years we were married were really frustrating. She was _never_ in the mood. We had pretty much concluded that it was the birth control she was on at the time, as her libido improved exponentially when she switched methods. I have to wonder whether what you suggest was also a contributing factor. I think we had more sex last week than we did for the first year we were married.



> I don't recall if the OP said he knew before the marriage of her abuse history.


I _knew_, but not explicitly. It was pretty obvious. She had 'victim' painted all over her. For years, I wondered which family member it had been. Her father? Surely not. Her brother? Not even. We'd been married for about ten years when she told me what happened and who it was. I was a little surprised at first, but it all made sense once I thought it through.


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## OptimisticPessimist (Jul 26, 2010)

Orochi said:


> Even though the weekend with my family was lovely, I've been anxious to get back to this thread. Whether she is reacting to my new attitude or maybe something else going on with her, my wife is becoming quite the animal in bed lately. :smthumbup: I want to not be bothered by whatever history or disparity or anything, but if this is another side effect, I'll take it!


Can you explain approximately what your "new attitude" is for us? Im curious which approach you have taken, and what has caused a spike in sexual activity. Still, :smthumbup:



Orochi said:


> Agreed. 100%. I recently learned that Phoenix's original abuser has medical issues that cause him constant pain. It was suggested that we keep him in our prayers and hope that his upcoming surgery to correct his condition is a success. I confessed that his chronic pain warms the cackles of my cold, black heart, and that I feel that he deserves every minute of pain that he experiences. I know that's wrong of me. She says she has forgiven him, but I've had a hard time doing the same.


There are countless quotes that talk about how forgiveness is the most important choice to make. Ill be honest though- I have one person (formerly) in my life that I feel anger and aggression towards no matter how hard I try. I wouldnt beat yourself up over it. Think about it from time to time, and when your ready, you'll make a change in mentality.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Orochi said:


> Agreed.  100%. I recently learned that Phoenix's original abuser has medical issues that cause him constant pain. It was suggested that we keep him in our prayers and hope that his upcoming surgery to correct his condition is a success. I confessed that his chronic pain warms the cackles of my cold, black heart, and that I feel that he deserves every minute of pain that he experiences. I know that's wrong of me. She says she has forgiven him, but I've had a hard time doing the same.


It isn't wrong of you! Imagine what you would do if you walked in on this perp abusing a child today.

There are many forms of forgiveness. Some things are UNforgivable by any definition of forgiveness, and child sex abuse is one of them imho.

Being a pedophile is not a choice, it is how one's brain is wired. I believe it is the same as other sexual orientations in that regard, where one is attracted to or aroused by some group of humans and not by other groups. However, acting out on one's urges or arousals is always a choice.

Thus I have some understanding that my wife's abuser did not choose to be attracted to children, and in fact he may have become that way due to being abused himself as a child. However, I utterly despise him for acting out his urges on children. There are certain to be dozens or more additional victims besides my wife. Unforgivable.

It doesn't have to take up space in your mind, though. I don't ruminate about my wife's abuser, but I would smile if I heard he suffered a lot of pain. If my life were being affected by my revilement of her abuser, or if I'm doing the Snoopy Happy Dance when I hear of his suffering, then I would not be dealing with the issue in a healthy manner.

The victim though may have a need to forgive her abuser. This is probably a different form of forgiveness, and may be a key component to her recovery. Rather than suppress her emotions, she processes them and then releases them, calling it "forgiveness".

I think you're allowed to have negative emotions about her abuser, and it seems like a bit of Karma if he is suffering some illness. Meanwhile, your wife is probably in a healthy place if she has reached some form of forgiveness towards him.


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## Csquare (Jan 14, 2014)

norajane said:


> All this talk of temples and purity seems like y'all are talking about things, not people.


My reference to "temple being defiled" and "purity" was strictly trying to understand how a victim of sexual abuse might perceive things. Not trying making a judgement on people's sexual choices.


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## Orochi (Apr 28, 2014)

> Can you explain approximately what your "new attitude" is for us? Im curious which approach you have taken, and what has caused a spike in sexual activity.


I'd like to say that I'm just 'getting over it,' but it's not exactly that simple. Being able to express it in a place this safe has been a huge help. Just from reading my posts, you can probably see how it went from a jumbled mess in my head to objective reasoning. At this point I'm just not giving it any more headspace than I can help it. It seems awful trite to say "it is what it is," but I can't think of a better way to put it. I can't tell that I'm _doing_ much of anything different, but there's definitely a palpable difference around the house. Could have something to do with the confidence, as you told me a week ago.  It seems awful sudden for such a difference, so I'm hoping that this will prove to be a lasting thing.



> The victim though may have a need to forgive her abuser. This is probably a different form of forgiveness, and may be a key component to her recovery. Rather than suppress her emotions, she processes them and then releases them, calling it "forgiveness".


Oh yes, psych 101. Her forgiving her abuser allows her to close the issue. Frankly, I think that it's important that I can do the same, but I see no rush.



> Thus I have some understanding that my wife's abuser did not choose to be attracted to children, and in fact he may have become that way due to being abused himself as a child.


I suspect the same. There's weird stuff in his family. Nothing that I can substantiate with any evidence, but weird anyway. He and several other men in his family have each spent time in mental institutions for nervous breakdowns. His younger sister is a jumpy, nervous mess around men. There are other odd things in addition to what I'm mentioning here. Any of these things by themselves and I might not think anything of it. All together, combined with my wife's testimony, and I have to believe that there's stuff that's happened that I don't ever want to know about.


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## Csquare (Jan 14, 2014)

It's heartbreaking the reverberations of abuse, and how a child suffers and carries that baggage into adulthood.

Your wife is a brave woman. She probably suffers from post-traumatic stress. There are therapies for PTSD, including EMDR - a form of tapping to re-wire the brain in response to triggering memories. There are psychotherapist who are trained in this area who might be able to help her.

Unlike others, I would argue against suppressing, or rug sweeping, your feelings on this matter. It could be some of these issues are arising now in your relationship - after many years together - because your wife is finally in a *safe* place to face the memories. The subconscious mind protects us often by compartmentalizing trauma. Maybe when she talks about men she's been with in the past is her mind trying to heal from the injury of abuse. In order to heal, it is necessary to *revisit* the past.

Her past promiscuity might have been an attempt to regain control of her body, after having had that taken away from her at such a young age.

It takes a lot of work to recover from damage. It could be her reluctance to see an IC on this is because she doesn't want to relive that nightmare. However, it might be necessary for her to in order to reclaim a healthy sexuality.


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