# homeschooling makes me sad... confused



## incorrect (Oct 28, 2012)

There's nothing inherently bad about hsing.... I just never thought it would happen to my family.

We have two wonderful kids, 5 and 7. I fully supported my wife staying home to raise them during their early years, though her housework (cooking, cleaning, etc) did not meet my expectations and this is a recurring theme that causes her a lot of stress. 

I have not supported our decision to homeschool our daughter for the last two years. The first time it came up, hs was touted as a way to navigate the uncertainty of my job/our living situation. I gave in, because I knew that I'm a better loser than she is, and am better equipped to deal with not getting my way. It's not about winning, but we had a decision to make.

It came up again last Feb, with enrollment starting for this year. We had originally agreed to try it for one year but I sensed this was turning long-term. I was determined to put an end to this, shutting-down the possibility of any discussion. Of course, it didn't work. This time, the argument was way worse. she gave in but she was so hurt, that I ended up giving in a second time, same reason as before. Later, she told me that she probably would have taken the kids if I had insisted. Had I been more supportive, she reasons, it would have been easier for her to quit hsing. Nobody likes to be kicked in the @$$ on the way out. Applying pressure, like I did, seemed to backfire. On the other hand, I didn't want her to think I was ok with it. 

That brings us to today. There's really no end in sight. It's the greatest source of saddness in my life right now, and I haven't even gotten into why. 

I'll get to that, but for now, I have one question... Have you ever supported your spouse on something you couldn't agree on? I'm talking major issues. What was the outcome? How did you learn to live with it?


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## ShawnD (Apr 2, 2012)

What's the real problem here? Is it the money lost because she's not working?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

You have got to give more info on why hsing is making you sad. What's going on?

It's not wise to support a spouse in something that affects your children if you do not agree with it. Where there is disagreement you fall back on the 'norm'. The 'norm' is not hsing.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

What makes you sad about it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Are you out there?


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## incorrect (Oct 28, 2012)

I guess sadness is just one emotion that I feel. Sometimes it's anger. 

For the record, I think my wife is doing an ok job of it, and my kids appear to be happy, though my daughter really craves friendship. I will fight the urge to spell out every little thing I dislike about homeschool. Here are my top three.

1. I'm no longer proud of my wife. She has a masters degree. I was proud of her when she was working. Proud of her as a SAHM. But philosophically, I have a hard time with hs. I know the kids typically do well academically and contrary to the popular argument, I believe most develop acceptable social skiills. But I feel like she's sacrificing a good portion of her life to produce these super-kids and I don't think it's worth the sacrifice. I think our kids will have happy productive lives regardless of where they're schooled. I want her to do something extraordinary with her own life. Most of our parents hoped that we would make some positive contribution to this world. We hope the same for our kids...... I feel like hs simply passes this hope to the next generation without any real contribution. To me, raising great kids is just the baseline. I work and I am making a positive difference. I have a great relationship with my kids. I don't need to sacrifice my personal aspirations to be a good parent. So that leaves her; she enjoys this lifestyle, and how, I wonder, can I disapprove of something she's happy with? That's a tough one for me. I just feel her life is so boring. It mostly consists of taxi cab service, art projects, and chores. I know that many husbands support their wife's decision to hs but I really wanted something more for her. She was let go from her last job in 2004, and hasn't worked since. Sometimes I think, maybe hs is a cover, and she just doesn't know what to do. I actually have to stop for now but I'll hopefully write more tomorrow. I'm sure I will draw criticism for some of my remarks and that's fine. In my head, these thoughts are still a work in process.


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## Benevolence (Oct 8, 2012)

For most women raising their children is priority #1 it IS a job.

Have you asked your wife if she is happy? It sounds like you two could use some communication time to sit down and talk about your life together. Ask her what her aspirations are, try to listen and not let your aspirations for her interfere.

Home Schooling isn't the problem, the problem is you think your wife is not living up to her potential.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Benevolence said:


> For most women raising their children is priority #1 it IS a job.
> 
> Have you asked your wife if she is happy? It sounds like you two could use some communication time to sit down and talk about your life together. Ask her what her aspirations are, try to listen and not let your aspirations for her interfere.
> 
> *Home Schooling isn't the problem, the problem is you think your wife is not living up to her potential.*


Bingo.

You said you were proud of her being a SAHM? Are you sure about that? I ask because throughout your explanation about why you don't agree with her homeschooling your kids, you repeatedly said, or at least implied, that she has much more potential than "just" teaching your kids. In which field is her degree? I'll be honest. I know women who homeschooled their kids and then they went back to school to continue their education. They had degrees before, but this made them more appealing in the workforce. 

Some kids I know NOW are being homeschooled because they were being bullied and the administration did nothing about it. Where before they were failing, now they are thriving. I'm not saying this is what happened to your children. But, some women believe their kids are their greatest accomplishments. 

In choosing to teach your children herself, she is making their education a high priority. She wants them to have the best education possible, as far as she is concerned, to make them more productive members of society when they are grown. If I were to guess, I would say that she views your kids as a more important legacy to leave behind than a pile of money. Yes, with a Master's degree, she has great earning potential. But she, likely, values the kids' education more.

But, that is all JMO. If I had the patience to homeschool my own kids, I would. I did start with my oldest, but when the youngest two were babies/toddlers, I couldn't continue. I don't regret teaching him myself.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

I actually share your sentiments. When we chose a partner one of the things we consider in compatibility is career aspirations. When you hooked up and she got her masters I'm sure you saw your wife in that role.

If my wife lost her job and wanted to homeschool I would be 100% against it. Without even getting into my thoughts on home schooling I'd prefer it if she acheived her goals and aspirations. If those goals have changed, I think she should discuss that with you. But just being honest, I don't know if I could live with a wife who's sole purpose in life was the kids.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

As a non-american and a teacher i find the concept of homeschooling fascinating. Fascinating in the way you find a car wreck fascinating... You pass it by and look at it and think "damn... glad it wasn't me...".


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## livnlearn (Mar 5, 2012)

To say you are no longer proud of your wife because she isn't the big career woman that you would like her to be, is a selfish statement. It sounds like you get YOUR self-worth from being able to say your wife has "X" career. Think about it...if money is not an issue, and she feels fulfilled, and doesn't regret not using her master's degree at this point in her life, where does the disappointment come from??

I don't know what your career is, but it's pretty safe to say that there are a fair amount of people who would consider what you do "so boring". 

and no, I'm not a SAHM/homeschooler...I just think so far your argument is pretty self-centered and lame.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

I'm a SAHM and I really debated with myself if I were to homeschool my 2 youngest or youngest daughters. My girls get plenty of social interaction with neighborhood kids and friends from their sports teams and horseback lessons. There are several ways for your wife to get your children involved in social activities. Especially with other homeschooled children.

My oldest daughter, now graduated was bullied the entire 4 years of high school by one girl. This girl did illegal drugs and smoked cigarettes. I knew this bully child and the school did NOTHING about it. So much for their zero bullying tolerance policy. We had meeting with several teachers, school councilor and principle. This girl never quit. It impacted my daughter in a very negative way and there was nothing the school did to even try to fix the issue.

I do not have my masters degree in anything. I only have a 2 year associates degree in general classes of a community college. I do not feel qualified enough to teach through high school years. My husband could, he teaches in 2 colleges part time night and online. However, we own a small business and he works full time managing a department with a large city. He is insanely busy, plus he's training for another Ironman for next year. My husband chooses to work 3 jobs, I've tried talking him into shutting down our business. 

I do not have anything against homeschooling and neither does my husband. My husband encouraged me to quit my job to stay home and raise the children. He knew once I did this that the likelihood of me returning to work would be minimal. Well, now it's never due to a major injury a few years back.


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## ShawnD (Apr 2, 2012)

incorrect said:


> For the record, I think my wife is doing an ok job of it, and my kids appear to be happy, though my daughter really craves friendship.


I wouldn't worry about the social aspect of it. I went to normal school and I still felt alone. I've also met home school people who had large circles of friends. It's more about the person than the environment.



> 1. I'm no longer proud of my wife. She has a masters degree. I was proud of her when she was working.


Does she know you feel this way? 



> But I feel like she's sacrificing a good portion of her life to produce these super-kids and I don't think it's worth the sacrifice.


Maybe show her some studies about why helicopter-parenting tends to destroy children instead of help them.
link 1 - helicopter parenting creates neurotic, needy children
link 2 - helicopter parenting causes anxiety in children
link 3 - helicopter parenting makes kids fat

I can confirm these. My best friend had an overbearing mother and it did all of those things. He's neurotic, emotionally needy, has extreme social anxiety, and he has been fat most of his life for that exact reason - you can't do X because it's too dangerous. X could be swimming, skateboarding, going to a concert, etc. It tends to destroy the kid's self esteem because the message put across is: you're too stupid to do things on your own, so I must do them for you.

What type of degree does she have? It is an MRS degree?


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## livnlearn (Mar 5, 2012)

ShawnD said:


> Maybe show her some studies about why helicopter-parenting tends to destroy children instead of help them.
> link 1 - helicopter parenting creates neurotic, needy children
> link 2 - helicopter parenting causes anxiety in children
> link 3 - helicopter parenting makes kids fat
> ...


You're making a huge leap here. Homeschooling parents do not equate to "helicopter" parents.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

A woman's priorities do sometimes change once they have children. I was once a high powered executive and then as they say a baby changes everything. After that the only thing that mattered to me was my husband and my children. I've been a homemaker for 9 years now. I don't see me as boring though. If done well homemaking is a 24/7 job and I don't home school.

I also don't feel like I've sacrificed my life to raise kids. They have their lives, friends, and interests. And I have mine. It almost sounds like your concern is that your wife focuses on the kids too much and less on other things. Her life is unbalanced.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Bingo.
> 
> 
> In choosing to teach your children herself, she is making their education a high priority. She wants them to have the best education possible, as far as she is concerned, to make them more productive members of society when they are grown. If I were to guess, I would say that she views your kids as a more important legacy to leave behind than a pile of money. Yes, with a Master's degree, she has great earning potential. But she, likely, values the kids' education more.


I agree 100% with Maricha. I homeschool my kids, and this is exactly how I feel. Like your wife, I also have a Master's degree. I'm willing to sacrifice anything for my children. Sure, we could be making substantially more money if we put the oldest two in school and the youngest two in daycare. But I would rather focus my attention on my children and do without the extras right now. So would my husband. 

Now, I do also work part-time from home. But it's very minimal, and that's how I want to keep it. My husband is very supportive of homeschooling our children, and he would actually prefer that I quit working entirely. However, I do like to have an outlet, and the extra money that I make is nice.

Maybe you should try to change your perspective on what you wife is doing. She is investing in your children and your family. As your children get older, it might be possible for her to find a part-time job so that she is using her Master's degree. And they won't be children forever. I know I won't regret my decision when they are grown and I return full-time to the work-force. I might never have the earning potential that I could have if I had worked for years full-time in my field, but money and success can't replace the time I have with my children.

I also wanted to add that at this very moment my seven-year-old is reading a chapter book on the couch to my three-year-old. I wouldn't trade these moments for anything. He is also reading substantially above his grade level. And I'm not meaning to brag about his "smartness." I'm his mother--of course I think he is smart. The point I'm trying to make is that homeschool done right can really help your child meet his/her full potential. You can tailor homeschool to meet each child's individual needs. I have watched my children blossom and excel in this way. It's priceless.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> A woman's priorities do sometimes change once they have children. I was once a high powered executive and then as they say a baby changes everything. After that the only thing that mattered to me was my husband and my children. I've been a homemaker for 9 years now. I don't see me as boring though. If done well homemaking is a 24/7 job and I don't home school.
> 
> I also don't feel like I've sacrificed my life to raise kids. They have their lives, friends, and interests. And I have mine. It almost sounds like your concern is that your wife focuses on the kids too much and less on other things. Her life is unbalanced.


I do think priorities can change. However, one thing I detect from the OP is that his wife changed her mind without really discussing it with him. The sense I get is that she used other factors as an excuse, and has now set this up as a hard boundary (see her comment about taking the kids if he did not allow the home schooling). So I see two problems here:

1. He is judging his wife on her (lack of) carreer choice and seems to be applying his values as to how boring it is, when in fact she might find it very fullfilling; and

2. She changed her mind on her carreer and was never honest about it with him. While that may be her recognizing that he would not approve, she still owes it to him to be honest about it.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

FTR, my older two kids are in public schools. I like the teachers they have had here. My daughter's kindergarten teacher was moved up to first grade and is her teacher again this year. We, now, live in a very small town. This school has a strict "no bullying" policy...and they uphold it. But I can honestly say that if there were issues we could NOT resolve, I would pull them from the school and teach them at home. There are excellent curricula available for each grade. I do what is best for my children. Right now, this school system is best for them. 

Now, I understand why Costa feels as he does about home schooling, since he is an educator. It is understandable. However, some parents try to put their kids in the schools, only to have them bullied. Not just by the students, but the teachers as well! How well do you think a child would perform under these circumstances? And, these same students, when placed on a home school curriculum, end up excelling... where before, they were failing. For some parents/children, home school is a disaster. For others, the children excel, even in social skills.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Homeschooling is illegal in Sweden, besides I think that homeschooling inhibits social interactions of the child. But as costa says.... "Fascinating"


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## ShawnD (Apr 2, 2012)

livnlearn said:


> You're making a huge leap here. Homeschooling parents do not equate to "helicopter" parents.


I can't send _my_ child to public school. What if the other kids call him names? I need to protect him at all times!!!!
That's basically the definition of helicopter parenting - refusing to let them fight their own battles and learn things.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

My daughter homeschooled herself through high school and it was the best decision we could have ever made for her. So I am totally FOR homeschooling if it's done right.

But like someone else said, I don't think homeschooling is the problem, it's the attitude that your wife is wasting her life by homeschooling your kids. They're YOUR KIDS. How on earth can you say she's wasting her life educating them?? What better gift can a parent give their child? How is dedicating yourself to your children a WASTE?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> Homeschooling is illegal in Sweden, besides *I think that homeschooling inhibits social interactions of the child.* But as costa says.... "Fascinating"


Except it doesn't always. Yes, sometimes, it does. However, the parents are often part of a home school group, and they meet up once a month or so. Also, the children often get involved in sports and other activities which would be extracurricular for those in "regular" school. They also get involved in church activities (if they go to church). There is ample opportunity for social interaction. 



ShawnD said:


> I can't send _my_ child to public school. What if the other kids call him names? I need to protect him at all times!!!!
> That's basically the definition of helicopter parenting - refusing to let them fight their own battles and learn things.


Yes, and what if someone beats the sh!t out of your child day after day after day. And when YOUR child stands up to the bully, he/she gets suspended or expelled, yet the bully gets NO punishment. I call bullsh!t on that. And yet, one of my friends had that happen to her daughter. She got bullied by a boy at school. Shen she finally had enough, she fought back, and was kicked out. Nice, huh? Our public schools...at least the high school/junior high, anyway. 

I've been fortunate. The teachers here actually care about the students and what happens to them, not just academically, but overall. But, if it ever came about that my child was being bullied by a teacher or another student, I'll be DAMNED if I'll let them get away with it! I'm not talking about how so many parents like to blame the teachers when their children aren't doing well in school. No, I mean when teachers single out a student and are constantly on that one student, when he/she has done nothing to deserve the treatment. How does that help a child to learn? My niece had that happen last year. My sister was fortunate enough to be able to transfer her to a different school this year. But, no matter how much my sister tried to bring it to the school's attention, they ignored her. And this was a new teacher! She was fortunate. But I guarantee that had she not been able to find a school she trusted, she would have asked me to oversee her daughter as she used a home school curriculum. That's not overprotective, or "helicopter" parenting. That's common sense.


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## ShawnD (Apr 2, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> *Homeschooling is illegal* in Sweden


It's illegal in many parts of the developed world. The reasoning was that homeschooling is often done by people who are dangerously unqualified to teach anything. You won't find many people with engineering degrees or physics degrees home schooling their kids, but it's very common to see uneducated and sporadically employed people home school their kids. The result of stupid people home schooling their kids is a lot of kids who have a high school diploma even though they don't know a damn thing. For example 46% of Americans believe humans were specially created by god in their current form and that evolution is not a real thing. 
To believe in young earth creationism, every branch of science needs to be ignored. That's exactly what happens in a lot of cases of home schooling. They never learn anything about anthropology, archeology, palaeontology, atomic physics, astronomy, etc. 

I would guess the OP's wife wouldn't have this problem. She's educated, so her ability to home school is probably excellent.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

ShawnD said:


> It's illegal in many parts of the developed world. The reasoning was that homeschooling is often done by people who are dangerously unqualified to teach anything. You won't find many people with engineering degrees or physics degrees home schooling their kids, but it's very common to see uneducated and sporadically employed people home school their kids. The result of *stupid people home schooling their kids is a lot of kids who have a high school diploma even though they don't know a damn thing.* *For example 46% of Americans believe humans were specially created by god in their current form and that evolution is not a real thing. *
> To believe in young earth creationism, every branch of science needs to be ignored. That's exactly what happens in a lot of cases of home schooling. They never learn anything about anthropology, archeology, palaeontology, atomic physics, astronomy, etc.
> 
> I would guess the OP's wife wouldn't have this problem. She's educated, so her ability to home school is probably excellent.


So, by your definition of stupid people... we Christians are not qualified to teach our own children? Because we choose to believe God exists and created us? Never mind the fact that many of us HAVE learned the things you mentioned, and are well educated ourselves. But, because we are Christians, we should not be allowed to educate our own children? Good to know. Glad you aren't the one to decide whether or not I am fit to teach my kids. Thanks.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> So, by your definition of stupid people... we Christians are not qualified to teach our own children? Because we choose to believe God exists and created us? Never mind the fact that many of us HAVE learned the things you mentioned, and are well educated ourselves. But, because we are Christians, we should not be allowed to educate our own children? Good to know. Glad you aren't the one to decide whether or not I am fit to teach my kids. Thanks.


I don't think he said that. Obviously, many Christians excel at science and would be able to homeschool their kids properly. However, those Christians who take the Bible literally have a real dilemma when it comes to science education. As ShawnD said, there are so many areas of science that are in direct conflict with the Bible. Can you leave them out and claim to have taught science to your child? Can you teach intelligent design and claim to have taught science to your child? The answer is a resounding NO!

For the record, I'm a Christian who excels at science. Don't tell me I'm not a Christian because I believe that intelligent design is crap.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

VermisciousKnid said:


> I don't think he said that. Obviously, many Christians excel at science and would be able to homeschool their kids properly. However, those Christians who take the Bible literally have a real dilemma when it comes to science education. As ShawnD said, there are so many areas of science that are in direct conflict with the Bible. Can you leave them out and claim to have taught science to your child? Can you teach intelligent design and claim to have taught science to your child? The answer is a resounding NO!
> 
> For the record, I'm a Christian who excels at science. Don't tell me I'm not a Christian because I believe that intelligent design is crap.


If I ever went back to home schooling my children, I would teach them that the majority of the science world believes in evolution, however there is a minority who believe in Creation and Intelligent Design...which is my personal belief. Doesn't mean I am incapable of teaching my kids what they need to learn. Just because I don't believe in evolution, doesn't mean I am incapable of teaching my kids that most scientists, and even a large population of the world, believe in it. I learned all of that when I attended public schools, all my life. I didn't embrace it, even while I love science as a whole. With home schooling, I would be free to pick BOTH curricula and let my kids learn them, and form their own conclusions.


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

This entire thread makes me sad as hell. There is some serious ignorance being shown here as it relates to home schooling, at least as it exists in the U.S.


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## ShawnD (Apr 2, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> So, by your definition of stupid people... we Christians are not qualified to teach our own children? Because we choose to believe God exists and created us?


Don't group all Christians in the same boat. I'm Catholic, and we don't believe any of the crazy stuff that goes on in the US. Even the pope declared that your battle against evolution is absurd. 




> Never mind the fact that many of us HAVE learned the things you mentioned, and are well educated ourselves.


What will your child learn? Radiometric decay, the theory used to date fossils and rocks back millions and billions of years (not thousands of years), is all wrong? Nuclear bombs don't exist, nuclear power plants don't exist, radioactive dyes in hospitals don't exist, and this whole theory of radioactivity is nonsense? Some of the strongest evidence of evolution comes from DNA tests which show humans being very closely related to other great apes. Will you teach your kids that DNA paternity testing is invalid? DNA evidence at crime scenes is all wrong? What about the huge fossil records showing slow transitions between species? All those bones are fake? All observed instances of speciation are fake?

You're setting them up for failure.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> If I ever went back to home schooling my children, I would teach them that the majority of the science world believes in evolution, however there is a minority who believe in Creation and Intelligent Design...which is my personal belief. Doesn't mean I am incapable of teaching my kids what they need to learn. Just because I don't believe in evolution, doesn't mean I am incapable of teaching my kids that most scientists, and even a large population of the world, believe in it. I learned all of that when I attended public schools, all my life. I didn't embrace it, even while I love science as a whole. With home schooling, I would be free to pick BOTH curricula and let my kids learn them, and form their own conclusions.


It's just that evolution is science based on facts, billions of them at this point, and intelligent design is faith, based in religion. They aren't on an equal footing, though ID proponents like to think they are. Just to teach evolution properly you would have to get in to facts that are contradictory to the Bible over and over again. 

When I hear ID proponents describe evolution they say "and evolution means that apes turned into men." and when they refute it they say things like "no one has ever seen an ape turn into a man in 2000 years of watching so it must be false". So they are in complete denial of the framework of earth's history. The Earth is 4 billion years old. Australopithecus is 4 million years old. How do you adequately describe evolution if you try to fit it in a 6,000 year timeline? You can't.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Considering the fact that my kids are in public schools, it's a moot point. Hmmm... perhaps I should contact our church's closest academy and ask what they teach the kids as far as science? Did I say I would only pick one of them? No. I would teach them both. I'm fairly certain that my education background is sufficient. I could teach both evolution and creation to my kids. The only reason I do not home school is because I don't have the patience for it. 

Look, you're not going to sway me and I'm not going to sway you. My only reason for posting on this thread was because the OP SEEMS to find less value in his wife because she has chosen to home school their kids. As long as they are getting socialization and adequate education, I don't understand the problem. Now, if it was a matter of not being able to provide the necessities if she wasn't working, then no, I couldn't see how home school could be a benefit to the kids...if their basic needs are lacking at the expense of keeping them out of public schools. 

I had absolutely no intention of turning this into a religious debate or anything. I was questioning ShawnD's comment


> The result of stupid people home schooling their kids is a lot of kids who have a high school diploma even though they don't know a damn thing. For example 46% of Americans believe humans were specially created by god in their current form and that evolution is not a real thing.
> To believe in young earth creationism, every branch of science needs to be ignored. That's exactly what happens in a lot of cases of home schooling. They never learn anything about anthropology, archeology, palaeontology, atomic physics, astronomy, etc.


Maybe it does happen in a lot of cases of home schooling. But just because I happen to believe that God did create the world, etc, doesn't mean I am incapable of teaching my children about evolution. I learned it. I'm not stupid, by any stretch of the imagination. 



> Even the pope declared that your battle against evolution is absurd


See, that means nothing to me... the pope has no authority over me.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

ShawnD said:


> What will your child learn? Radiometric decay, the theory used to date fossils and rocks back millions and billions of years (not thousands of years), is all wrong? Nuclear bombs don't exist, nuclear power plants don't exist, radioactive dyes in hospitals don't exist, and this whole theory of radioactivity is nonsense? Some of the strongest evidence of evolution comes from DNA tests which show humans being very closely related to other great apes. Will you teach your kids that DNA paternity testing is invalid? DNA evidence at crime scenes is all wrong? What about the huge fossil records showing slow transitions between species? All those bones are fake? All observed instances of speciation are fake?
> 
> You're setting them up for failure.


I disagree. Just because you homeschool does not mean you raise your children in a bubble. I want my children to be informed of evolution and to make their own choices. And there are plenty of people who are quite successful who believe in creation as opposed to evolution. My immediate family and most of my extended family believe in creation. My father is a physician, my grandfather is a dentist. Two of my uncles are physicians. My mom is a nurse and so is my aunt. One of my brothers is a dentist. The other is a lawyer. Both excelled in science and mathematics throughout school. The members of my church tend to be more educated (especially in science) than the general population. They also have higher income levels.

My point is you can still teach children to think critically if they are homeschooled.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

A hypothetical from archeology. Radio carbon dating looks at the percentage of radioactive carbon in dead things to determine their ages. Could be trees or bones of people. When it was first developed they proved it against known artifacts that had been dug up and dated in other ways. So the carbon dating correctly identified artifacts from Christ's time and from Egyptian sites that were much older... around 1500BC. So far so good because there is no conflict with the Bible. 

But they also kept using dating on other archeological sites that they knew to be even older and the ages went back 50,000 years. Now there's a problem with the Bible. How do you explain it in a coherent way? Do you not teach it at all? 

I have a friend who is a very smart guy but takes the Bible literally. For all of those contradictions he just says, "God is testing our faith." But that is the same as saying that science is arbitrary. You can't hold that view AND truly practice and understand science.


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## mel123 (Aug 4, 2012)

OP.....The quality of your children's education to me, is not an issue, with your wife having a Masters.

If your wife wants to home-school at this time, back-off . You sound controlling , I see her as a very devoted mother. With all the stories on TAM about self-centered spouses, you should be extremely thankful for her and let her do as she wants. I might agree with you, if she were not well educated, but that is not the case, she is.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

I think you can get a great homeschool education too, especially through the lower grades. It becomes much tougher in high school when calculus, chemistry, and physics are taught. Most people don't have chem or physics labs in their homes for one thing. 

I see real irony in the fact that the most technologically dependent and therefore science reliant country in the world is so dismissive of science. Also irony in the fact that your dentist takes dental x-rays and an astronomer can find the same wavelengths of light in the sky... that were emitted 12 billion years ago. Just cracks me up.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

VermisciousKnid said:


> I think you can get a great homeschool education too, especially through the lower grades. It becomes much tougher in high school when calculus, chemistry, and physics are taught. Most people don't have chem or physics labs in their homes for one thing.


I agree, high school would be tougher. As it is, math that I learned in high school/college is now being taught in elementary/middle school. I know I don't have a chem or physics lab in my home. However, I think they are usually able to make arrangements with schools for such things. If not, then then need to set up work stations and have the equipment available to use. I really don't know for sure though.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

Regardless of how smart the teacher (mom or dad) is, it is wise (required?) to purchase a good curriculum. Very few people would be able to teach all subjects appropriately for all ages without good teaching guides.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

If you want your kid to have a public high school diploma, then yeah, you need to make arrangements to teach the recognized curriculum. If, as is becoming increasingly acceptable to many post secondary schools, you just grant them a homeschooled diploma, then curriculum doesn't matter. My daughter does not have an Alberta Education diploma, but she hasn't found that to be a handicap. She wants to be a baker and eventually open her own shop, so she's working at a place that will apprentice her and let her learn that way, where they recognize her true abilities and don't care that she doesn't have a clue how to do calculus.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

VermisciousKnid said:


> Regardless of how smart the teacher (mom or dad) is, it is wise (required?) to purchase a good curriculum. Very few people would be able to teach all subjects appropriately for all ages without good teaching guides.


I do know that in Palm Beach County, Florida, you have to make sure your child is learning at an appropriate grade level. Yes, they can go at their own speed, to an extent. However, if you don't keep a log/journal daily, and show what they are learning from week to week, and get an examination every year by a qualified teacher, you are required to place your child in regular school. I taught my son for kindergarten and first grade. My husband was very supportive. His mother, however, was not. We got through those two grades with no problem. When he got into second grade, he started acting out. He saw his grandmother's disapproval and figured he didn't have to listen to me. Since the school year was almost over by that time, I didn't enroll him in the public schools. However, the ext school year, he repeated second grade. Honestly? Emotionally, that was the best thing for him... repeating second grade. He is very intelligent. He does exceptionally well in school, as does his sister. He is now in 5th grade and she is in 1st. He is at the top of his class, she is in her teacher's accelerated reading group. She has been at the top from the beginning.

I truly hope my kids' experience continues to be this good. If not, I will address alternatives then.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> If you want your kid to have a public high school diploma, then yeah, you need to make arrangements to teach the recognized curriculum. If, as is becoming increasingly acceptable to many post secondary schools, you just grant them a homeschooled diploma, then curriculum doesn't matter. My daughter does not have an Alberta Education diploma, but she hasn't found that to be a handicap. She wants to be a baker and eventually open her own shop, so she's working at a place that will apprentice her and let her learn that way, where they recognize her true abilities and don't care that she doesn't have a clue how to do calculus.


Better a true calling than an official diploma with no practical value. Our (US) educational system assumes that college is the eventual goal for everyone, which really is nonsense if you look at where the jobs are. You can opt out along the way, but there aren't many programs to opt in to if you do that. There should be.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I went to school. I wouldn't be able to do calculus now. I'm actually vague on what it actually is. I couldn't do radio dating, or manipulate chemical compounds or anything of the sort. I didn't do chemistry or physics as I have no aptitude for or interest in it.

I am, though, highly educated and successful in my chosen field, which is Montessori education. I have also done statistic analysis and other research methods at a university level, even though I stopped high school maths in year ten. 

My point here is that people fuss and worry that somehow homeschooled kids are going to 'miss out' on some vital piece of information that they can ONLY GET in high school. If a homeschooled kid doesn't have enough formal maths knowledge to study engineering and that's what he or she wants to do, there are bridging courses offered at community colleges in the US and at TAFES and universities in Australia, where I am. I read a study recently which demonstrated that it is perfectly possible for a motivated student to work throughh the entire high school maths curriculum in six weeks. That's the key, a motivated student. 

Aand further to that, how many people finish high school with low level literacy and numeracy skills? How many use trigonometry or calculus in a formal way? do you all remember all the stuff you were forced to learn at school? Did you stop learning after graduation? 

I'm a qualified teacher. My husband is a university academic. I will be homeschooling my children, in fact, I'll be unschooling them, so I won't be using a curriculum at all. It's a minority choice, but it's valid, legal and no less likely to result in well-educated adults than going to school.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Lyris said:


> I'm a qualified teacher. My husband is a university academic. I will be homeschooling my children, in fact, I'll be unschooling them, so I won't be using a curriculum at all. It's a minority choice, but it's valid, legal and no less likely to result in well-educated adults than going to school.


OMG I wish we had a LOVE button here. My daughter unschooled and I wish it was not such a misunderstood option!


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

My wife quit a career as an accountant to stay home and run an in-home aggressive therapy program for my autistic son. It was not a huge reach for her to home school both our children. She started with our daughter who is not autistic and a year later added our son. She has done a tremendous job with both the kids and I am so VERY proud of her. No teacher could ever love our kids as much as my wife does. No teacher could ever provide the one on one attention that my wife does. No teacher could ever wish to see my kids have as successful an outcome as my wife does. I know that may make some teachers bristle but that's too bad.

Fact is my kids are happy, well adjusted, well socialized (kids do exist outside of schools, after school and on weekends, you know?) My daughter consistently tests above her grade level in STAR testing. My son just got his high school certificate of completion. We put him back in high school for his last year. The teachers were surprised at how advanced he was given his emotional age.

Homeschooling has taken a huge emotional and physical toll on my wife. She tells me how easy work was in comparison. If anything she is exceeding her potential as a wife, a mother, an educator, and UC Berkeley educated accountant. I just have to reiterate, I COULD NOT be more proud of who my wife is and what she has accomplished. She is an incredible woman indeed.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

> I disagree. Just because you homeschool does not mean you raise your children in a bubble. I want my children to be informed of evolution and to make their own choices. And there are plenty of people who are quite successful who believe in creation as opposed to evolution. My immediate family and most of my extended family believe in creation. My father is a physician, my grandfather is a dentist. Two of my uncles are physicians. My mom is a nurse and so is my aunt. One of my brothers is a dentist. The other is a lawyer.


I would be throughout more impressed if they were geologists, biologist or astronomers. None of those professions are really relevant for the question of evolution.

Plenty of successful people in non relevant fields actually mean nothing. Would your relatives consider my opinion relevant if i were to give my opinion about their area of expertize when that opinion has basically demonstrated wrong for over a century? No, they wouldn't, and with good reason.

There is basically no academic support for any other biological paradigm other than evolution. It's an accepted fact everywhere except in muslim countries and some USA areas. 

But, by all means, if you want to gain a Nobel prize, just formulate an alternative to evolution. Or better yet, mail it to me so that i can cash it in!


The problem with the theory of evolution in the USA is that people are often terribly uneducated about it but they think they understand it. They actually don't. 

And the opposition to it is just religious. It spawns from a literal reading of holy books. To try and mask it with scientific objections often leads to laughable situations.



> I read a study recently which demonstrated that it is perfectly possible for a motivated student to work throughh the entire high school maths curriculum in six weeks.


I don't know what they teach you guys over there but over here that would basically be impossible. In fact i doubt that anyone less than a genious kid can even get a single year in six weeks (studying only math), much less the whole of highschool. 

Would love a link to that study though...


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

Lyris said:


> I went to school. I wouldn't be able to do calculus now. I'm actually vague on what it actually is. I couldn't do radio dating, or manipulate chemical compounds or anything of the sort. I didn't do chemistry or physics as I have no aptitude for or interest in it.


Of course if you recognize what interests you and what bores you... But I'm reminded of my kids, now grown, who had a predictable response when served a brand new food for dinner. "I don't like it." "But you've never tried it." "I still don't like it." etc. They actually liked most of the new things we served. So I can argue that exposure to everything makes sense. Make a decision after you've had a few bites. 



Lyris said:


> I am, though, highly educated and successful in my chosen field, which is Montessori education. I have also done statistic analysis and other research methods at a university level, even though I stopped high school maths in year ten.


My oldest son had a year of Montessori at age four. I loved that school! I wanted to hang out and learn with the kids. 



> My point here is that people fuss and worry that somehow homeschooled kids are going to 'miss out' on some vital piece of information that they can ONLY GET in high school. If a homeschooled kid doesn't have enough formal maths knowledge to study engineering and that's what he or she wants to do, there are bridging courses offered at community colleges in the US and at TAFES and universities in Australia, where I am. I read a study recently which demonstrated that it is perfectly possible for a motivated student to work throughh the entire high school maths curriculum in six weeks. That's the key, a motivated student.


Six weeks. So a teacher adds no value? Or is that six weeks with a good teacher?



> Aand further to that, how many people finish high school with low level literacy and numeracy skills? How many use trigonometry or calculus in a formal way? do you all remember all the stuff you were forced to learn at school? Did you stop learning after graduation?


Not sure what bearing this has on homeschooling versus traditional schooling. 



> I'm a qualified teacher. My husband is a university academic. I will be homeschooling my children, in fact, I'll be unschooling them, so I won't be using a curriculum at all. It's a minority choice, but it's valid, legal and no less likely to result in well-educated adults than going to school.


And with your educational background your kids will have a huge advantage over many home schooled and traditionally schooled kids.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

costa200 said:


> As a non-american and a teacher i find the concept of homeschooling fascinating. Fascinating in the way you find a car wreck fascinating... You pass it by and look at it and think "damn... glad it wasn't me...".


There are two reasons people home school:

1 -They are religious fanatics and can't handle their kids walking among the heathens.

2 - They crave the attention they get for being a super parent.

There is no way a mom at home with two kids in different grades can do the job that an entire school system can do. THAT'S why your sad. You know you gave in to our wife on a BAD decision for the future of your kids.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

costa200 said:


> In fact i doubt that anyone less than a genious kid can even get a single year in six weeks (studying only math)


I must be a genius then, because I challenged our diploma exam as a mature student for Math 30 (grade 12 advanced math) when I was 21. I had quit high school and gone back after 5 years and was highly motivated - I needed Math 30 to get into university. I ordered the correspondence course and did it all, I didn't have time for marks, I just did it, and got 88% on the diploma exam. It took me about 2-3 weeks to work through the course.


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## Rosemary's Granddaughter (Aug 25, 2012)

OP, I read this quote today by J. R. Miller, and thought of your post~
"The woman who makes a sweet, beautiful home, filling it with love and prayer and purity, is doing something better than anything else her hands could find to do beneath the skies."


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> I must be a genius then, because I challenged our diploma exam as a mature student for Math 30 (grade 12 advanced math) when I was 21. I had quit high school and gone back after 5 years and was highly motivated - I needed Math 30 to get into university. I ordered the correspondence course and did it all, I didn't have time for marks, I just did it, and got 88% on the diploma exam. It took me about 2-3 weeks to work through the course.


You were an adult. I'm more in the lines of thinking about a kid of normal highschool age. Maturation makes a huge difference in terms of possible concentration and understanding ability. 

Plus i'm beginning to think you must have a small array of subjects to study, cuz it would possibly take you as long as 6 weeks just to even read our courses with understanding, much less the required training exercises. Even then you would probably have much trouble just understanding how to go from theoretical to practical without the aid of a teacher.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I was only doing Math, no other subjects. And yeah, I was older, which I am sure helped, but many homeschooled kids don't decided for a number of years that they need a certain course for something else, and then take it.

Don't ask me today what I learned - I needed Math for the program I was in, but only for the first year. Once I was done first year university math, I actually burned all my textbooks, that's how much I hated it, and couldn't tell you a single thing about it now. That's how useful it's been to me.

I took the course for the sole reason of retaining enough info to get a mark so I could get into uni, that was it.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

> Once I was done first year university math, I actually burned all my textbooks, that's how much I hated it,


Hehehe! That's classic...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

livnlearn said:


> You're making a huge leap here. Homeschooling parents do not equate to "helicopter" parents.


I know some who are definately "helicopter" parents. Their children are a mess because of it. 

And yes there are many who are not helicopter parents.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ShawnD said:


> It's illegal in many parts of the developed world. The reasoning was that homeschooling is often done by people who are dangerously unqualified to teach anything. You won't find many people with engineering degrees or physics degrees home schooling their kids, but it's very common to see uneducated and sporadically employed people home school their kids. The result of stupid people home schooling their kids is a lot of kids who have a high school diploma even though they don't know a damn thing. For example 46% of Americans believe humans were specially created by god in their current form and that evolution is not a real thing.
> To believe in young earth creationism, every branch of science needs to be ignored. That's exactly what happens in a lot of cases of home schooling. They never learn anything about anthropology, archeology, palaeontology, atomic physics, astronomy, etc.
> 
> I would guess the OP's wife wouldn't have this problem. She's educated, so her ability to home school is probably excellent.


I have some nieces and nephews who were home schooled. They had to pass state exames. So they had to be taught all of those subjects that you claim are not taught.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

MrK said:


> There are two reasons people home school:
> 
> 1 -They are religious fanatics and can't handle their kids walking among the heathens.
> 
> ...


Or 3. Their kids are falling behind in class because nothing is explained to them completely. The teachers have to move forward for those who do grasp the concepts immediately. So, the one who is falling behind feels stupid, is treated like he/she is stupid. 

4. Kids complain about bullies )both teacher AND student bullies), just like they are told to do. Unfortunately, no one listens. So, the choices are to leave the child in an environment that is not conducive to learning, or pull them out and put them in a curriculum which works, and the child thrives. 

Yes, of course, keep the child in the school because clearly that is the best option. 

I'll be sure to tell my friend to put her daughter back into a school where she was failing due to the treatment she received from the teachers. And, I'll be sure to tell another friend that her daughter should have just sucked it up and let the bully beat her up, when she went to the teachers repeatedly. But, yea, super moms and super religious are the only ones who home school their kids. Never mind the fact that the parents of neither of my examples are "super moms" nor "religious fanatics".


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Lyris said:


> I went to school. I wouldn't be able to do calculus now. I'm actually vague on what it actually is. I couldn't do radio dating, or manipulate chemical compounds or anything of the sort. I didn't do chemistry or physics as I have no aptitude for or interest in it.
> 
> I am, though, highly educated and successful in my chosen field, which is Montessori education. I have also done statistic analysis and other research methods at a university level, even though I stopped high school maths in year ten.
> 
> ...


What is in this high school math cariculum that can be learned in 6 weeks?


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I'm another example of mathematical genius then. I stopped maths in year ten. No higher maths at all. In university I needed some extra maths to do statistical analysis, I got the explanatory textbooks and worked my way though them in a weekend. I ended up getting a distinction for that subject. I was reading recently about a group of asylum seekers who arrived in Australia at 15 and 16. No English, barely any formal schooling. They ended up in the top 10% of the high school graduating class as 17/18 year olds. 

No-one needs 13 years of formal school to learn what is taught there. School is mostly a convenience for parents and can be a good place for kids to meet other kids and explore new things. As my kids will grow up in a rich, interesting environment with access to many many people, places, activities and sources of information, school can't really offer them anything better. I recognize that is not the case for most families. 

If people, children or adults, see the point of what they need to learn, they'll learn it. If they don't, they may cram enough in to pass an exam, but very little to none of it will be retained. And conversely, if a child has an interest and aptitude for maths and or science, for example, then they will seek out and learn enough to get where they want to go.

Any high achieving adult will say that although their parents supported them and provided them with opportunity, the drive to learn and succeed came from within. Forcing knowledge into children/teens that they have no affinity for and will probably never use is only useful for one particular route into higher education, and there are many many other routes to follow. 

I realize I'm not going to change anyone's mind here.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> What is in this high school math cariculum that can be learned in 6 weeks?


It was a US study. I'll try and find a link.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

With regard to homeschool children:


> They never learn anything about anthropology, archeology, palaeontology, atomic physics, astronomy, etc


. 

Uh, sorry to disappoint you, but my public-high-school-attending teenager will not be learning ANY of those subjects courtesy of her government-mandated curriculum. (Well, PERHAPS a "dab" of astronomy.)



> There are two reasons people home school:
> 1 -They are religious fanatics and can't handle their kids walking among the heathens.
> 2 - They crave the attention they get for being a super parent.


You forgot "3 - They want to give their children a superior foundation for learning."

I'm not a religious fanatic, don't even attend church regularly.

Whose attention would I be 'craving' as a 'super parent'? We lived rurally, didn't even KNOW the neighbors! Who was I supposed to be impressing? People with x-ray vision who drove by our house and could somehow 'see' us homeschooling? Strangers we would run into on the occasional errand-run during the middle of brick-and-mortar "school hours"?

I've always loved reading and loved learning; I wanted to give that gift to my only child. She LOVES to read like I do! Always has, always will! That being said, I decided when I started homeschooling that I would NOT homeschool through high school. I, personally, do NOT feel qualified to teach Geometry, Trigonometry, Calculus, Chemistry, or Physics despite having a college degree (BSA in Business) and being a member of a high-IQ club.

But that is MY choice, I do not presume to choose for others nor for their children. I do resent when people slap all homeschoolers with the 'crazy' label; or when they imply (see, I DO know the difference between 'imply' and 'infer') that I AM NOT QUALIFIED TO TEACH my own child. I would love to know, WHOM DO THEY THINK taught my child to get dressed, use a toilet, wash up, brush her teeth, walk, skip, jump, sing, march, feed herself, swim, talk, have manners, blow her nose, wait her turn, share, etc (the list is endless). Um, I'm PRETTY SURE...that was ME!

Implying (or outright accusing) homeschoolers of all being religious fantatics and fear-mongerers is just as reckless and unjustified as implying that all brick-and-mortar parents or schools create "Columbine kids." 

Generalizations do little more than reveal the speakers' ignorance...although occasionally that ignorance can be VERY amusing!


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Okay, I misremembered. It wasn't a study, but a Sudbury school which has demonstrated repeatedly over the years that it is possible for motivated students to cover the K-12 maths curriculum in 8 weeks.

Just Do the Math, by David Albert - BestHomeschooling.org

Here's a quote of the relevant bit;



> *I had just explained how the Sudbury Valley School - a democratically managed, child-directed learning environment that has been around for almost 40 years - has demonstrated repeatedly that a child could learn math - all of it grades K through 12 - in eight weeks. Average (if there is such a thing), normal (never met one), healthy children, hundreds of them, learned it all, leading to admissions to some of the leading colleges and universities in the nation.
> 
> *“Must be some kind of trick,” she insisted dolefully, remembering her own dark days in the classroom slaving over the seemingly inscrutable, all joy wrung out as from a wet sponge, then as an elementary school teacher herself, and now finally daily fighting what she was convinced was a losing homeschooling war with her nine-year-old over the required workbook pages.
> 
> ...


Sudbury schools are democratic schools with an emphasis on child-led learning, not a homeschool environment. I think they are primarily in the UK? Anyway, the principle is the same. Kids will learn what they can see the point of and/or enjoy easily and quickly.


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## uhaul4mybaggage (Jul 20, 2010)

I was a first, second and third grade public school teacher for 16 years. My ex is a MS English teacher. With a Masters.

One of the few things we still agree on, is that there is more to a child's education than the curriculum they are instructed in. In a public school, a child is given the experience of ...going to school. It is one of the few commonalities that MANY people in our country, regardless of their culture or heritage, experience together and share as a common touchpoint of American life. So, though your family may speak Spanish or Hindi or Yiddish at home, you can still have that shared experience with other Americans that actually binds us as Americans. In public schools, children learn some important things:
*They learn that there are people who are different from themselves, who still have feelings and valid ideas, and who can still be their friends. They learn Tolerance.
*They learn rules of social norms. This is how we stand in line. This is how we DON'T pick our nose, and what other people's reactions to us will be if we do. This is how we make and lose friends, without our parents setting up playdates. This is how the world is, when you are moving through it by yourself.

Now, with my and my former husband's education, we could have successfully managed homeschooling our kids. And there are some school systems where, if I had to live in those districts, I would choose to HS because of safety or low quality education. BUT: short of that, I would never ; WE would never short our children the experience that a child can only get by having the public school experience. 

Also: I got to see a number of children entering 1st and 2nd grades after being homeschooled for 1-2 years. The amount of remediation USUALLY needed by these children to catch them up was horrifying. Seriously, if you don't have strong skills, and ability to keep your child engaged and on task for a full day, each day, and the drive to DO IT and not just pretend to do it, you are doing your child a HUGE disservice to home school. Send them to school.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Lyris said:


> Okay, I misremembered. It wasn't a study, but a Sudbury school which has demonstrated repeatedly over the years that it is possible for motivated students to cover the K-12 maths curriculum in 8 weeks.
> 
> Just Do the Math, by David Albert - BestHomeschooling.org
> 
> ...


So here's the description:

[/QUOTE]
*Greenberg found an old math primer from 1898, with lots of exercises, and away they went. No shortcuts. They added the long columns and the short columns, the fat ones and skinny ones, “borrowed” and “carried” and memorized the times tables. Long division. Fractions. Decimals. Percentages. Square roots. (Square roots? They stopped teaching that in the '60s, I think, when we were - or least the more “gifted” among us - given sliderules.)


> So this is talking about just basic math... I had all of that in elementry school. Where's the algebra? geometry? trig? calculus? The middle school and high school math subjects are not listed.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

When my son was in his junior year in high school I let him drop out. He took the GED and then went to college. 

Why did I let him drop out? He was bored to death with high school. It was more about who was cool and socializing. He was in all AP classes but was bored to tears. 

The school was over crowed with twice as many students as it was built to handle. Classes were huge. 

When he took the GED he got the highest grade possible.

He then went into college and is working an a degree in physics and engineering. He's finally challenged and carries a 3.8 gpa.

Many school systems now allow high school students to attend college for both high school and college credits. They get a high school diploma after 2 years in college as well as an Associates degree. This makes a lot more sense to me since public high school is from my watching my children go through it, mostly a waste of time.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

incorrect said:


> I guess sadness is just one emotion that I feel. Sometimes it's anger.
> 
> For the record, I think my wife is doing an ok job of it, and my kids appear to be happy, though my daughter really craves friendship. I will fight the urge to spell out every little thing I dislike about homeschool. Here are my top three.
> 
> 1. I'm no longer proud of my wife. She has a masters degree. I was proud of her when she was working. Proud of her as a SAHM. But philosophically, I have a hard time with hs. I know the kids typically do well academically and contrary to the popular argument, I believe most develop acceptable social skiills. But I feel like she's sacrificing a good portion of her life to produce these super-kids and I don't think it's worth the sacrifice. I think our kids will have happy productive lives regardless of where they're schooled. I want her to do something extraordinary with her own life. Most of our parents hoped that we would make some positive contribution to this world. We hope the same for our kids...... I feel like hs simply passes this hope to the next generation without any real contribution. To me, raising great kids is just the baseline. I work and I am making a positive difference. I have a great relationship with my kids. I don't need to sacrifice my personal aspirations to be a good parent. So that leaves her; she enjoys this lifestyle, and how, I wonder, can I disapprove of something she's happy with? That's a tough one for me. I just feel her life is so boring. It mostly consists of taxi cab service, art projects, and chores. I know that many husbands support their wife's decision to hs but I really wanted something more for her. She was let go from her last job in 2004, and hasn't worked since. Sometimes I think, maybe hs is a cover, and she just doesn't know what to do. I actually have to stop for now but I'll hopefully write more tomorrow. I'm sure I will draw criticism for some of my remarks and that's fine. In my head, these thoughts are still a work in process.


Some have given you a hard time about the way you feel. However I get your point. 

How much does your wife have your children involved in activities with a home school association and activities at the local schools that are also open to home schooled children?

What is your wife's master's degree in? Just because she has a masters does not make her qualified to teach all topics beyond the early grades. 

I know lots of people with masters who could not adequately teach science and math. And others with masters in engineering, math, etc that would not do a good job of teaching many other topics.

Did I read that she threatens to leave with the children if you do not allow home schooling? Well that will not work well for her because if she does leave she will not be able to home school. She will have to get a job. Plus, all you would have to do is to tell the court that you do not agree with home schooling and the court will not allow it. 

You have as much right to decide where/how your children are educated. Her stance of unilaterally deciding the kind of education they will have and then threatening to take your children away from you if she does not get to hs is abusive on her part. YOu have a lot to be concerned about. IT seems that she feels she ‘owns’ the children. I’ve seen this a lot with women who stay at home. They become overly attached to their children to the point of losing the connection with their husband.

This is something you really need to be concerned about because divorce is a very real possibility . By not keeping up her ability to earn an income she’s setting you up for having to pay her lifelong alimony when she does walk. 

If I were you I’d see an attorney about your rights. She has threatened to take your children? Always take a person at their words. Make sure you get the legal advice you need to make sure she cannot unilaterally move your children out of the family home. And under no circumstances should you leave the house.. like if she demands that you move out. She has not right to kick you out. It’s your legal home and the legal home of your children.

You married a woman who is well educated and who had a good job. You had reasonable expectations that she would remain employed at a level commensurate with her degree. These are not unreasonable expectations at all. She has basically pulled as bait and switch on you . She did this without mutual agreement. You have every reason to be upset with her. I think you are struggling with finding the right words to express it.

My ex did something similar. He lost his job in 2002 and has never gone back to work. He has every excuse in the book. 
It sounds like you did not agree to her being a stay-at-home wife who home schools. It’s not controlling to expect one’s spouse to live up with the expectations that they brought into the marriage. It’s also not controlling to expect that life’s large decisions are arrived at through mutual consent.

I can guarantee you that all the folks here chastising your for not agreeing to her making a unilateral decision to give up a career and home school would not be responding in the same manner if it was you who decided to quit your job and stay home to home school. 

No that line of thought, perhaps you could tell your wife that you think that home schooling is such a good idea that you too are quitting your job so that you too can stay home and home school the children with her. Surely all of you can live on food stamps right? Try that line of thought on her and watch her reaction. I’ll bet that she will not agree to you making the exact same decision she has made.

You have every right to be upset. You have a valid point of view that she is ignoring... as though you have no say in your life.. .you just have to shut up and support her. That's not how it works in a good marriage.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I realized I hadn't really addressed the OP.

I actually get where you're coming from, kind of, as sometimes I feel as though I have lost myself and never really achieved what I and everyone who knew me assumed I would, when I was one of the smart kids at school. Sometimes I don't feel proud of myself, or that what I'm doing matters much.

But my husband never feels that way. He has said, on more than one occasion how lucky our girls are to have me as a mother as I am not content with going along with the majority without questioning it and 
I'm always trying to find the best options for them. And he rarely gives compliments, so it means a lot when he does.

It's not your place to be proud of your wife. I mean that kindly. Be proud of your own achievements and try to see the value in hers.

But, I am also going to agree with Elegirl. She can't make this decision for your children unilaterally. And if she leaves with the children, by far the most likely scenario will be that the children are court-ordered to go to school. Happens all the time, homeschooling is a privilege, not a right. 

Maybe there's a compromise here? A homeschool co-op? Part-time school? A democratic, Sudbury type school? Maybe you should start doing some real reading about homeschooling, find out about adults who were homeschooled, look at all the different styles and resources there are. 

Really though, it's your wife's job to show you it's a good idea and how she's going to make it work. And lots of homeschooling parents do work outside the home, as the kids get older. I'm planning to get a bachelors of social work, starting in a couple of years. As my girls get older and more independent, I'll start working part-time, increasing to full-time.


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## back2whoiwas (Oct 22, 2012)

This message is directly to incorrect: You had said that you feel that your wife is trying to produce 'super kids' and that you don't feel like your kids are worth the sacrifice. SHE does. That's all that matters. She might be aware of certain things that can and DO happen in schools: peer-pressure, bullying, sometimes molestation. Children who are hs by parents who have their best interest at heart, teach them to productive members of society. "How does that play out in a practical way?" you may ask. Well, the Golden Rule is enforced and taught. They will treat others the way THEY want to be treated. So, at least, on their part people will WANT to be around them. 

Homeschooling is not a waste where their contributing to society "skips a generation" like you stated. Since hs is built around parents being able to give one-on-one time to their children, the children thrive academically. Hs also encourages kids to think and be thinkers. Another problem with children who go to Day Cares and public/private schools is T.V. watching. Most homeschooling parents don't let their kids watch tv at all or very minimally (if at all). That alone makes for children who are better of mentally and emotionally to be ABLE to think and be creative. Children will have questions about things. And hs is a place that allows for those questions to be answered and individuality to be fostered. Your wife, I believe LOVES it. Why should she not?! She's learning right along with your kids! It's amazing the things we, perhaps, as children learned way back in the day but never really had to use. She gets to recap what she once learned. 

I am not trying to say that hsed kids are BETTER than kids who have never been hsed. I am saying that the majority have better people skills and many times are more mature in how they carry themselves. Don't get me wrong, now, Kids will still be kids.

My brother and I were both homeschooled. I am so glad we were. All three of us (my mom, brother and I) were learning together. It was really fun. Great part was: our learning session was over after 3 or 4 hrs. Now that, in itself, is what I can call awesome! We also took a day off when my mom had errands to run, on days where our acquaintances were in (formal) school. BTW, to hs one's child doesn't imply helicopter parenting. Not at ALL!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Lyris said:


> ..
> 
> Maybe there's a compromise here? A homeschool co-op? Part-time school? A democratic, Sudbury type school? Maybe you should start doing some real reading about homeschooling, find out about adults who were homeschooled, look at all the different styles and resources there are.
> 
> Really though, it's your wife's job to show you it's a good idea and how she's going to make it work. And lots of homeschooling parents do work outside the home, as the kids get older. I'm planning to get a bachelors of social work, starting in a couple of years. As my girls get older and more independent, I'll start working part-time, increasing to full-time.


Homeschooling should take about half the time on a daily basis as a regular school because the social other parts of the public school experience are not there. And the children should be getting better attention from the home schooling parent.

It would be reasonable to me that the wife works and both parents participate in the home schooling. Perhaps that's a solution that he can offer her. She goes back to work. then the two of them take turns teaching the children.

And I'll bet she whould not buy that... because she has to go back to work.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

back2whoiwas said:


> This message is directly to incorrect: You had said that you feel that your wife is trying to produce 'super kids' and that you don't feel like your kids are worth the sacrifice. SHE does. That's all that matters. She might be aware of certain things that can and DO happen in schools: peer-pressure, bullying, sometimes molestation. Children who are hs by parents who have their best interest at heart, teach them to productive members of society. "How does that play out in a practical way?" you may ask. Well, the Golden Rule is enforced and taught. They will treat others the way THEY want to be treated. So, at least, on their part people will WANT to be around them.
> 
> Homeschooling is not a waste where their contributing to society "skips a generation" like you stated. Since hs is built around parents being able to give one-on-one time to their children, the children thrive academically. Hs also encourages kids to think and be thinkers. Another problem with children who go to Day Cares and public/private schools is T.V. watching. Most homeschooling parents don't let their kids watch tv at all or very minimally (if at all). That alone makes for children who are better of mentally and emotionally to be ABLE to think and be creative. Children will have questions about things. And hs is a place that allows for those questions to be answered and individuality to be fostered. Your wife, I believe LOVES it. Why should she not?! She's learning right along with your kids! It's amazing the things we, perhaps, as children learned way back in the day but never really had to use. She gets to recap what she once learned.
> 
> ...


This thread is really not about whether or not home schooling is a viable choice. It’s about a man whose wife has unilaterally decided to ignore his wishes and made choices that affect him and his children without even considering input from him. Home schooling is not for every family. Since he disagrees with it, it’s not for his family.

“She might be aware of certain things that can and DO happen in schools: peer-pressure, bullying, sometimes molestation. Children who are hs by parents who have their best interest at heart, teach them to productive members of society.”
The use of these things as the horrors of non-homeschooling on this thread is getting a bit sad… peer-pressure and bullying are things that happen in life. They happen in the work place. A person needs to learn to deal with them affectively. By sheltering a child for 18 years and then throwing them into the bigger world they just might not be prepared for what people outside their family are really like. 

As for molestation… MOST molestation takes place in the family home by close and extended family members and friends. Just as most women who are killed, are killed by their boyfriend/husband, most children who are molested are molested by those closest to them. 

If a person homeschools their children because in their 12 years of education some might put on peer-pressure or bully them, they are home schooling their children for the wrong reason.
If they are doing it because someone at school might molest the kids.. well the kids … teach the children how to stay out of such a situation.


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## Shoshannah (Aug 29, 2012)

It has been painful to read your story. I am a home schooling mother of many children. There are times when I want to give up, but my husband supports our decision to home school and thinks I am doing a very good job. I have a B.A. And then went to nursing school. I loved science and studied hard, becoming an ICU nurse. I miss it sometimes but would rather be home, teaching my kids. Our older children have done well in college and our high school students take dual credit high school and college classes at the local university. They are involved in lots of activities and have many friends. I get the sense that you will not be proud of your wife until she is making use of her fancy degree so you can be proud of what you consider a more impressive job and can brag to your friends. She must be under a lot of pressure from you to be what you want her to be, not how she sees herself, as a mother who is investing fully in her children.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Shoshannah said:


> It has been painful to read your story. I am a home schooling mother of many children. There are times when I want to give up, but my husband supports our decision to home school and thinks I am doing a very good job. I have a B.A. And then went to nursing school. I loved science and studied hard, becoming an ICU nurse. I miss it sometimes but would rather be home, teaching my kids. Our older children have done well in college and our high school students take dual credit high school and college classes at the local university. They are involved in lots of activities and have many friends.


I'm not sure why you would take what the OP says personally. Every situation is different. Your husband supports you in what you are doing. We don't know the entire situation with the OP. 

There are probably things that he has not told us that has him concerned about his wife home schooling. I can think of some but will not post them as it might contaminate this thread and don't want to put word out there for the OP that are not his words.



Shoshannah said:


> I get the sense that you will not be proud of your wife until she is making use of her fancy degree so you can be proud of what you consider a more impressive job and can brag to your friends. She must be under a lot of pressure from you to be what you want her to be, not how she sees herself, as a mother who is investing fully in her children.


Wow, that’s quite an insult to the OP.

So I guess he should be able to just quit his job and stay home to school the children? NO I guess not. He gets to the wage slave who has few choices while his wife does what she wants. 

Does he get a say in this or is it only his wife who gets to determine how their children are educated? Is it only his wife who gets to decide what she wants to do outside of the box… thus forcing him to be the sole bread winner of the family? Maybe he’s tired of working long hours, or feeling stuck in a job he does not like or something else.

Your insult to the OP assumes a lot about him without you having enough knowledge of their situation.


I do wish that the OP would come back but I fear he's been chased away by the negative replies he got here.


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## Shoshannah (Aug 29, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I'm not sure why you would take what the OP says personally. Every situation is different. Your husband supports you in what you are doing. We don't know the entire situation with the OP.
> 
> There are probably things that he has not told us that has him concerned about his wife home schooling. I can think of some but will not post them as it might contaminate this thread and don't want to put word out there for the OP that are not his words.
> 
> ...


 I'm sorry, I probably did overreact based on people who have said similar things in my life. I am sorry if my words were insulting and offended anyone. It is important for spouses to support one another in whatever they decide to do together concerning the education of their children and everything else in their marriage, so I am sorry for my hasty words. I have heard too many times from professional men that their wives are not going to be lazy, stay at home and bake cookies, etc and I applied these experiences to this situation. I will be very careful of my words from now on.


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## daffodilly (Oct 3, 2011)

sandc said:


> My wife quit a career as an accountant to stay home and run an in-home aggressive therapy program for my autistic son. It was not a huge reach for her to home school both our children. She started with our daughter who is not autistic and a year later added our son. She has done a tremendous job with both the kids and I am so VERY proud of her. No teacher could ever love our kids as much as my wife does. No teacher could ever provide the one on one attention that my wife does. No teacher could ever wish to see my kids have as successful an outcome as my wife does. I know that may make some teachers bristle but that's too bad.
> 
> Fact is my kids are happy, well adjusted, well socialized (kids do exist outside of schools, after school and on weekends, you know?) My daughter consistently tests above her grade level in STAR testing. My son just got his high school certificate of completion. We put him back in high school for his last year. The teachers were surprised at how advanced he was given his emotional age.
> 
> Homeschooling has taken a huge emotional and physical toll on my wife. She tells me how easy work was in comparison. If anything she is exceeding her potential as a wife, a mother, an educator, and UC Berkeley educated accountant. I just have to reiterate, I COULD NOT be more proud of who my wife is and what she has accomplished. She is an incredible woman indeed.


Just wanted to say, sandc, that your wife is all kinds of awesome. I'm a mother to a high functioning autistic 6 year old, and I totally commend her for running his entire education from home.....I know firsthand that dealing with autism 24/7 is draining. My little guy has come a long way...he's in grade 1 and academically is meeting curriculum standards in a regular classroom....3.5 years ago he was a completely different kid. I couldn't home school....I do the best I can for him outside of school and learned therapies in the toddler/preschool years, and I'm one of those pain in the a$$ parents with the school in getting his needs and IEP addressed....but kudos to her, you're family is very lucky! 

As for the OP....I am with elegirl that it's his wife's stance that troubles me. She lost the argument when she threatened to take the children away. I suspect if she had discussed the plan with the OP honestly....say do a trial of homeschooling for x period....and the OP still saw his kids were happy and she was doing a good job, likely he would not be feeling so sad.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Shoshannah said:


> I'm sorry, I probably did overreact based on people who have said similar things in my life. I am sorry if my words were insulting and offended anyone. It is important for spouses to support one another in whatever they decide to do together concerning the education of their children and everything else in their marriage, so I am sorry for my hasty words.


It's ok to say what you think/feel. I was not trying to interfere with that.

In your situation you have had others remark negatively on your and your husband's life choices. It's none of their business. It your life and your marriage. You and your husband get to decide how you live it.

I have worked most of my marriage. I've also been the major, often the only, wage earner. I have also caught a lot of nasty comments from people who think I should not be working or who think it's wrong for a woman to work 'in a man's friend" and earn a lot of money. It does not matter what you do. There will always be a group of people who judge you negatively and who feel it's their place to let you know how they think you should run your life. Ignore them. 



Shoshannah said:


> I have heard too many times from professional men that their wives are not going to be lazy, stay at home and bake cookies, etc and I applied these experiences to this situation. I will be very careful of my words from now on.


Sometimes a person who is the sole income earner has no appreciation at all for what the stay-at-home spouse/parent does. They see it all as just playing around.

Sometimes the SAHM/S does not do a lot and is just down right lazy. 

Every situation is different. My over the last 12 years has been an eye opener on this. My husband lost his job and just never replaced it. At first he said that it was because our children (2 his, 1 mine) were having a hard time adjusting to the divorces and our marrying. So he thought that having a parent home would benefit them. I agreed.. for a while. But he did nothing... he did not spend any time with the kidss. He did nothing in the house or yard. All he did was play computer games and surf the web. He was locked in his office most of the time and the kids were unsuprevised. They used to laugh that they could skip school, stay home and he never noticed.

I have divorced him because of this. He turned into the the kind of spouse that those men fear. Some spouses, to include wives, are lazy and feel justified in being supported while they give little to nohting back to the spouse who supports them and to their family. I know women like this. 

Anyone has the right to expect that their spouse will put as much into the marriage/family as they do.

If you are not one of those spouses who is and entitled, self centered user then don't let remarks by others about entitled/self-centered people affect you. They are not talking about you.

A stay at home spouse/parent who does what they should is a hard working person who contributes to the family and society. But if a spouse is going to work or not work... it must be by mutal agreement.


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## missymrs80 (Aug 5, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Considering the fact that my kids are in public schools, it's a moot point. Hmmm... perhaps I should contact our church's closest academy and ask what they teach the kids as far as science? Did I say I would only pick one of them? No. I would teach them both. I'm fairly certain that my education background is sufficient. I could teach both evolution and creation to my kids. The only reason I do not home school is because I don't have the patience for it.
> 
> Look, you're not going to sway me and I'm not going to sway you. My only reason for posting on this thread was because the OP SEEMS to find less value in his wife because she has chosen to home school their kids. As long as they are getting socialization and adequate education, I don't understand the problem. Now, if it was a matter of not being able to provide the necessities if she wasn't working, then no, I couldn't see how home school could be a benefit to the kids...if their basic needs are lacking at the expense of keeping them out of public schools.
> 
> ...


I went to Catholic school...we didn't learn about any of this (meaning evolutionary sience etc). Well, maybe we did and I just slept through it. :scratchhead:


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## missymrs80 (Aug 5, 2012)

Agh this thread makes my stomach turn! I have a master's and i currently work (part time). I really want to be a SAH mom one day and talk about it all the time now with my husband. I think this is a huge fear of mine....that he will think of me differently and wont be proudof me anymore.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

missymrs80 said:


> Agh this thread makes my stomach turn! I have a master's and i currently work (part time). I really want to be a SAH mom one day and talk about it all the time now with my husband. I think this is a huge fear of mine....that he will think of me differently and wont be proudof me anymore.


My wife was the president of her college honor society, and eventually became a nurse practicioner. We homeschooled when my job moved us to an area where the schools were bad, and put a lot of thought into the way we did it (satellite links to a prep school, social involvement, lab use of equipment that we paid for through property taxes, etc). It was great to have a daughter who became a published writer in high school, with great friendships, but just as good to see that our son needed the local school through high school, after we moved.

I know that my wife is brilliant. Why would I need her paycheck to reflect that? She eventually transitioned back into part time, and finally full time. It really comes down to what we, as husbands and fathers, value. My wife created a legacy through the sacrifices that we were able to make so that she could home school. We value that legacy, and I value the sacrifices that she was so willing to make. It was a learning process for me to get to that place where I really appreciated it. I think that the caution is recognizing that when we look forward into something that hasn't transpired yet, its easy to look at it in a way that is completely skewed. Things that seemed important before no longer did, once I saw the value. For us, the most important part was that we agreed that it would always be a mutual decision, and we would re-assess frequently, and respect each other's concerns. Knowing that we were doing it together made all the difference.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

OP --- I do not agree with your wife making the decision about your children's education without your input. That said I have a question for you.

Do you want your wife to return to work for financial reasons, or just because YOU don't find value in her being a HS SAHM?? 

Either way your concerns are valid, but it would help me form an opinion better if you could answer that for me.

FWIW, HSing and Public school all have crappy parents to an extent. For every nut-job homeschooling parent, there is a set of dual working parents who neglect their children while putting every bit of their attention on their careers. I have seen both. This is truly something that should be a family decision.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...I absolutely support your desire to have some input on whether or not your wife HS's your children. For anyone dubious about that...imagine your reaction if OP had decided to quit working to HS. That sort of decision really should not have been made unilaterally.

...assuming that your wife is doing a decent job of HSing and you are financially stable with this choice...I see that she's directly impacted by this choice and cares a lot. It is a reasonable choice and your kids aren't being harmed...so it might be reasonable to discuss HSing more in terms of duration and plan accordingly. I personally think that most people overemphasize career. If she keeps her hand in a bit, maybe part-time, and plans for the future, she won't be stuck at home 5ish years from now...when the kids are much less focused on mom. If she's aiming for age 18 - I'm a bit dubious - high school is a decent time to socialize.

...if your wife is hiding from a career search...that's a different matter and it may be the act of a good spouse to prod her a bit. Bear in mind that a fair number of women _really_ don't want to leave their children to go back to work. 

...I can understand the 'handbag' approach to marriage - where part of your respect for your spouse derives from your spouse's career - plenty of men and women have this feeling. It might not be wise to let that feeling dominate your marriage, but it really is hard to let go of it. (I imagine that your wife might be upset if you suddenly gave up a focus on career.)

...for others...not learning evolution or learning 'enormously poorly-supported' theories like intelligent design probably won't affect your children's future much (except for a few branches of biology) - although I'm personally - as a sort of public policy common good - against supporting the lack of intellectual honesty and critical thinking that leads people to prefer intelligent design to reasonably well-supported theories. I'm sort of fine with teaching intelligent design, as long as you teach your children enough intellectual rigor that they come back and explain to you that evolution is more likely to be correct.

That type of intellectual honesty is truly valuable for individuals - and would save a lot of people significant amounts of investment capital.

OTOH, there's at least one successful physicist - involved in ICBM work - who believes, as an article of faith - that the world is flat. Go figure. Gigantic security clearance...actually does ballistic calculations critical for our national defense (US)...Flat Earther.

--Argyle


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## incorrect (Oct 28, 2012)

I've just been trying to digest.

As stated earlier, I expected a few stones to fly. Had I wanted approval, I would have turned to my friends. I need those stones to fly. They help me to better understand my own feelings, and hopefully boil this down to a more manageable level. 

I've read many similar threads over the past year and the themes are all about the same. They never persuade me to either side of the argument. They only succeed in making me nauseous and I'm right back where I started, unenlightened. I think it's difficult to form an opinion about a person and their situation based on a few paragraphs and there's no way to know every detail, just like there's no way to know if I'm presenting all of the relevant facts. 

There are really so many comments I'd tempted to respond to, but I must stick to just a few themes. 

First, a little more background. I went to Lutheran school, all the way through high school. I was an average student. I participated in basketball, track, choir, and chess club. There were challenges but I'm glad I went there. I liked being exposed to different teachers. I had friends, but was not terribly popular. My wife was raised in the public school system. We don't have a TV in our house. We live very simply. 

We have talked at length about our options. I have expressed my concerns to her about hs as well as my lack of pride in her. This left a big scar. We looked at several private schools, secular and non-secular. From her perspective, there was always some flaw, somewhere. I thought some of them were great. 

I think my wife is qualified to teach; that's why I brought up the Master's degree. I was a doubter at first, but I think she does ok. I think my daughter is ahead of where I was as a second grader. My kids are involved in many different activities and meet-ups during the week. It's quite dizzying. Every day is a snowflake. I love my family. I want to stay with my wife. The most important thing is that we stay together, even if it means settling.


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## incorrect (Oct 28, 2012)

Here are some responses to the main themes:

1. Unilateral decision vs. mutual decision. Our decision was MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE - not MUTUAL. There really were no compromises. I gave in out of compassion and/or weakness, or both. She didn't comment about leaving me until after the decision was made. By insisting on private school, I was also pushing a unilateral decision, which is not fair. Had I won, I would have lost. It's hard to support something you don't believe in and I think she would have had a much harder time with this, than I am. She felt as if she was getting let go, a second time. 

2. My career aspirations for my wife. I think back wistfully to the days when she was working. I miss our morning walks to the office and lunch meetings. My wife is attractive, but I miss seeing her in professional wear. I miss hearing about her day, and I miss the friends that we had. We were happy. She's done odd jobs over the past two years, but it takes away from our time together; it complicates things more than they already are. I doesn't matter if she never uses her degree. If she told me tomorrow that she wanted to be an artist, or join the Peace Corp, or become an author, I'd be happy. It's not so much about career as it is direction.... having an azimuth. The more I think about it, I can't envision her ever returning to work. 

3. Socialization. My kids have many opportunities for socialization. And while I haven't looked at the research, I'd concede that properly hs'd kids develop good social skills. I'm not concerned about that. I'm sad that she craves having some constant friendship in her life and not simply meet-ups, soccer practice, Sunday school, etc. It's all so hit and miss and these kids and their families seem to come and go. She gets so excited at the most subtle prospects of friendship..... a pink bicycle in someone's yard. I took these things for granted growing up. 

4. Quality and ROI. Research shows that homeschooled kids do better on standardized tests. These parents are taking an active role in their child's education. These parents exist within the traditional school system as well, and it's pure conjecture, but I'd think their children would out-perform the population as well. I think everyone would agree: for better or for worse, the choice between traditional vs. non-traditional education will have a major impact on our child's lives. When looking at the end product, I don't see one option as better than the other, they're just different. You can't know what you can't know. I'll never know if my kids were better off being homeschooled. But what if we quantify better off? If they were 100% better off, maybe it would be worth it. What about 1%? I don't necessarily mind our lack of income. I don't necessarily mind not being able to eat out, or taking fewer, shorter trips, or driving second rate used cars. I don't necessarily mind working second jobs, or living in a rental house. The sacrifices are easily observable, but I think the payoff is over-estimated. I don't think it's worth the sacrifices that we're making. Like me with my kids, my parents wanted the best for me too.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

It sounds like your daughter is a very social, outgoing child who may well ask to go to school at some point. Lots of kids move in and out of school for different reasons, so homeschooling now doesn't mean homeschooling forever.

I realize that doesn't address all your concerns, but it might help you to feel less sad about it if you remember that as the years go on, it's likely that your daughter will go to school at some point. And it's also worth remembering that school is not necessarily a great place for kids to make friends and in fact, they only get a very limited amount of time to socialize freely during the school day. About half an hour, usually. 

There's no perfect option. They all have benefits and drawbacks. I think part of the problem is that we're also used to the drawbacks of school that we don't even see them. They're just part of life.

I hope you and your wife can find a compromise you're both happy with.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

incorrect said:


> Here are some responses to the main themes:
> 
> 1. Unilateral decision vs. mutual decision. Our decision was MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE - not MUTUAL. There really were no compromises. I gave in out of compassion and/or weakness, or both. She didn't comment about leaving me until after the decision was made. By insisting on private school, I was also pushing a unilateral decision, which is not fair. Had I won, I would have lost. It's hard to support something you don't believe in and I think she would have had a much harder time with this, than I am. She felt as if she was getting let go, a second time.


I just want to focus on this issue. Human nature is very interesting. We (as people) can recognize all of the benefits of a particular course of action (as you appear to with your kids being home schooled) and yet resnt it when that decision is made for us with no input allowed. The lack of choice causes resentment even if you might have made the choice (or at least not opposed it) if you had been provided real input into the situation. So how much of your issue is this resentment and how much is wanting your wife back as someone who works?


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...sounds like you're staying regardless. It sounds like home-schooling is pretty much a wash for your children in your mind. It is a significant negative for you and a significant positive for your wife.

...it sounds like you miss being on the same page. You both had careers and did similar things...and now she's gone off to be a home-maker. I will say that raising children is an ancient and honorable occupation - choosing that occupation could be seen as having a firm direction in life.

...it also sounds like your wife didn't deal well with losing her job. Do you believe that she's just terrified of restarting her career - or is this a choice she's making primarily for your children?

...being broke all the time because your wife is making choices without you kind of sucks. The reality is that her decision to have you work second jobs to barely stay afloat really isn't fair at all. There, you do have tons of choices. 
One of them is...
Sorry dear. I'm not going to work second jobs to avoid bankruptcy. It takes too much time away from the children. Perhaps we can cut expenses? (eg, move) Or lose money for XX years until you go back to work?

Another is...
This is really important to you. I'll choose to work second jobs to let you live your dream.

Possibly...for XX years.

Some communication might help...
Is she planning on staying at home forever?
Or for a few more years?
Or until your children finish grade/high/college?
I doubt it has to be forever.

I would be careful of just giving in without discussion - a marriage can survive some of that sort of behavior - but if this happens a lot - it'll be problematic.

--Argyle


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## frootloop (Dec 20, 2010)

missymrs80 said:


> I went to Catholic school...we didn't learn about any of this (meaning evolutionary sience etc). Well, maybe we did and I just slept through it. :scratchhead:


I doubt they push it, but the Catholic church's stance (via the pope) is that evolution is not incompatible with Christianity, and has been since 1950.

More recently, from Wikipedia:

_A five-day conference, Biological Evolution: Facts and Theories, held in March 2009 by the Pontifical University in Rome, marking the 150th anniversary of the publication of the Origin of Species, generally confirmed the lack of conflict between evolutionary theory and Catholic theology, and the rejection of Intelligent Design by Catholic scholars.

The Church has deferred to scientists on matters such as the age of the earth and the authenticity of the fossil record. Papal pronouncements, along with commentaries by cardinals, have accepted the findings of scientists on the gradual appearance of life._


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## incorrect (Oct 28, 2012)

So I think I need a strategy, because the frontal assault doesn't work. I see two courses of action.

1. Influence her to quit on her own, in a indirect, non-passive aggressive way. As long as it's her decision, I think she will be ok with it and won't resent me. For example, she mostly associates with hs moms and online hs moms. Perhaps if I could broaden our social circle a bit to where we spend time with more mainstream families. Same with our daughter's friends. I could try to reinforce her friendships with non-homeschooled girls. I also wish there was a way I could help her to spark a personal interest in something other than staying home. Perhaps I could play up our money situation a little? There's no more fat to trim. Ironically, the more I strive at my work, the more our financial situation will improve. 

2. I could re-engage the conversation. It's been since April. I could say something like "I don't really agree with your decision, but our kid's education is important to me and so I want to find ways to become more involved." For instance, I want them to take a foreign language, or I could help them with math. I'd also like to work in some assessments to make sure their learning is generally on track. In exchange, I'd like to get her to commit to an age where they go into school. This is a tricky one, though. What if she says "Never" or "Why do they need to go back to school?" The conversation could potentially deteriorate. What would happen if I asked when SHE planned to send them back to school? What if she replied "Until it stops working"? Then I'm screwed. 

Both options have different risks. What would you do?


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

So, you want to manipulate your wife into agreeing with you and doing what you want? That seems...off. And, FTR, I'd say exactly the same thing to her if she was in here asking for ways to trick you into agreeing with homeschooling.

"Until it stops working" is a perfectly legitimate answer. Not everything can be mapped out years in advance. You seem very unwilling to compromise on this issue, is your wife the same?


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## mrstj4sho88 (Sep 5, 2012)

*Your wife wants to be the best mother she can. You agreed to her being a SAHM . You don't like her homeschooling and should tell her to think about private schools. You could look into private schools in your area. JMO she might be ok with a private school education for the kids. A lot of private schools have smaller classes. Just maybe your wife does not think public schools is the answer for your kids. The one thing you should not do is make light of her choices. I know you feel a job is what she needs. So have you ever talked with your wife about private school? Why are you so into forcing your wife to agree with public schools? JMO in your case you should be talking with her about private. I mean come on she has already said no to public (with her actions of homeschooling).*


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...um...it is fair to refuse to take 'extra' steps (like a second job) to support an unilateral decision on her part. It isn't fair, or a good idea, to 'play up' a livable financial situation. It would be reasonable to have, at some point, a discussion regarding future financial plans. If you all can survive reasonably well on your current income, I don't think this is a big issue.

...I also don't prefer indirect methods. There are three obvious reasonable approaches.

(1) Okay...so...how long are you planning on homeschooling? I'd like to know. There's no harm in asking. And knowing her plans is useful. Knowing them doesn't mean you're giving in.

(2) So, what are your future plans? (You can't control her future plans...but it would be good to know what they are.)

And (3) (once you know what her plans are...) 
'This is a problem for me because...'
(a) We'll go broke (if this is true...sounds like it isn't)
(b) I'm feeling miserable because we're taking different paths (kind of my guess)
(c) Near as I can tell, you're hiding in the nursery room because you got laid off...time to put your big girl panties back on and get to work. (could be)
(pick one, or something else)

Keep in mind - it is reasonable (and common) for men to feel unhappy when women change in ways that distance them from their husbands after children come.

It sounds to me like you're not so much concerned about your children's education. (All the complaints you've come up with aren't that terrible.)

This is crazy...but I wonder if you might feel happier if you modified your course a bit to mirror her choices? It does sound like she's changed her priorities for now - are you open to adjusting yours?

--Argyle


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## incorrect (Oct 28, 2012)

mrstj4sho88 said:


> *Your wife wants to be the best mother she can. You agreed to her being a SAHM . You don't like her homeschooling and should tell her to think about private schools. You could look into private schools in your area. JMO she might be ok with a private school education for the kids. A lot of private schools have smaller classes. Just maybe your wife does not think public schools is the answer for your kids. The one thing you should not do is make light of her choices. I know you feel a job is what she needs. So have you ever talked with your wife about private school? Why are you so into forcing your wife to agree with public schools? JMO in your case you should be talking with her about private. I mean come on she has already said no to public (with her actions of homeschooling).*


Starting with the low hanging fruit: I'm not advocating public school at all - just private. We've looked at several private schools together.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Settling breeds resentment, resentment breeds marriage fail.


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## mrstj4sho88 (Sep 5, 2012)

incorrect said:


> Starting with the low hanging fruit: I'm not advocating public school at all - just private. We've looked at several private schools together.


*Ok so what did your wife think of maybe private school? I am not saying private is better than public. You have to see away to meet in the middle with your wife*.


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## Rosemary's Granddaughter (Aug 25, 2012)

incorrect said:


> So I think I need a strategy, because the frontal assault doesn't work. I see two courses of action.
> 
> 1. Influence her to quit on her own, in a indirect, non-passive aggressive way. As long as it's her decision, I think she will be ok with it and won't resent me. For example, she mostly associates with hs moms and online hs moms. Perhaps if I could broaden our social circle a bit to where we spend time with more mainstream families. Same with our daughter's friends. I could try to reinforce her friendships with non-homeschooled girls. I also wish there was a way I could help her to spark a personal interest in something other than staying home. Perhaps I could play up our money situation a little? There's no more fat to trim. Ironically, the more I strive at my work, the more our financial situation will improve.
> 
> ...


It's best to be direct about what you want.

What if she puts the children in private school, but does not resume work? What if she wants to be a SAHM?


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## oldgeezer (Sep 8, 2012)

incorrect said:


> I guess sadness is just one emotion that I feel. Sometimes it's anger.
> 
> For the record, I think my wife is doing an ok job of it, and my kids appear to be happy, though my daughter really craves friendship. I will fight the urge to spell out every little thing I dislike about homeschool. Here are my top three.
> 
> 1. I'm no longer proud of my wife. She has a masters degree. I was proud of her when she was working. Proud of her as a SAHM. But philosophically, I have a hard time with hs. I know the kids typically do well academically and contrary to the popular argument, I believe most develop acceptable social skiills. But I feel like she's sacrificing a good portion of her life to produce these super-kids and I don't think it's worth the sacrifice. I think our kids will have happy productive lives regardless of where they're schooled. I want her to do something extraordinary with her own life. Most of our parents hoped that we would make some positive contribution to this world. We hope the same for our kids...... I feel like hs simply passes this hope to the next generation without any real contribution. To me, raising great kids is just the baseline. I work and I am making a positive difference. I have a great relationship with my kids. I don't need to sacrifice my personal aspirations to be a good parent. So that leaves her; she enjoys this lifestyle, and how, I wonder, can I disapprove of something she's happy with? That's a tough one for me. I just feel her life is so boring. It mostly consists of taxi cab service, art projects, and chores. I know that many husbands support their wife's decision to hs but I really wanted something more for her. She was let go from her last job in 2004, and hasn't worked since. Sometimes I think, maybe hs is a cover, and she just doesn't know what to do. I actually have to stop for now but I'll hopefully write more tomorrow. I'm sure I will draw criticism for some of my remarks and that's fine. In my head, these thoughts are still a work in process.


You could not possibly be more wrong about absolutely everything you have said here. 

Homeschooling is infinitely superior to public school and dramatically better than private. You are not denying your kids anything to homeschool them, and in fact, are doing them the greatest service you could possibly do for them. 

For your wife to take on that task, when it would be so much easier just to ship them off to someplace for most of every day, is commendable to the highest degree. 

If you have any concerns about academic achievement, then get your kids through some standardized testing of their math, reading, writing, language, and intellectual maturity, and if there's any deficiencies, then work on them. 

In the meantime, HOW DARE YOU even think of thinking less of your wife for what she's chosen? Is her only value just to use a master's degree to make a career? That does nothing for your kids. They are the single greatest responsibility you and her have, to ensure that they are ready to live as adults when that time comes. And "school" is remarkably deficient at doing so. 

I rarely come here and read someone's comments and get angry, but as a father of 5, and one who did some homeschooling himself, you make me infuriated. Children are the one thing I am willing to blow my stack over, in their defense... and never back down. 

Yes, you two need to come to some agreement... but you provide no real basis for your objection, and instead, you appear to resent your wife disagreeing with you, and from your statements, this is nothing more than a matter of who can prevail over the other's emotions. You owe your kids stepping up and being a parent, not a career coach for your wife, nor a battle of wills. 

There is no fault and NO FLAW in homeschooling, unless it really isn't done, as in, your kids are not learning what they need to to be successful in life. And nobody.. and I mean NOBODY is better equipped on this planet, than a loving parent. If you have concerns, then work with her to understand what achievements they need to make and any changes she might be missing... but by all means, you are wholly and utterly wrong about homeschooling. It is the single best choice in the universe for raising kids to be a success in life.


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## incorrect (Oct 28, 2012)

I love your opening statement. You probably think I'm an accountant, or worse, a banker. 

Is HS truly the best option? I'm 'successful' by many different definitions. People like me. I like me. I went to private school through highschool. It's impossible to prove that I'd be any better or worse off, had I been home schooled. I'm sure you would agree that many 'successful', happy people have been produced by conventional schooling. I don't feel I'm doing my kids a dis-service by sending them to private school. And I would never ship my kids off to 'some place'. 

You almost insinuate that by choosing to pursue my career, I'm somehow less of a parent..... that I'm doing 'nothing for my kids'. I don't agree with that either. You make it sound as if working couples are irresponsible and incapable of providing a nurturing, loving environment; incapable of producing happy, contributing members of society. 


What is your definition of successful?


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## oldgeezer (Sep 8, 2012)

incorrect said:


> I love your opening statement. You probably think I'm an accountant, or worse, a banker.
> 
> Is HS truly the best option? I'm 'successful' by many different definitions. People like me. I like me. I went to private school through highschool. It's impossible to prove that I'd be any better or worse off, had I been home schooled. I'm sure you would agree that many 'successful', happy people have been produced by conventional schooling. I don't feel I'm doing my kids a dis-service by sending them to private school. And I would never ship my kids off to 'some place'.
> 
> ...


Successful is having gained and employed fluency in the skills needed for life. Some measure it in money, some in relationships, some by what you aquire, some by what impact you make on other people. I say it's having been given both the tools and the mind to do what makes you happy. 

I have no idea what you do in your life. I don't think it matters. 

But you came out with the idea that your wife is wasting an education, your children are not being properly oriented in a society, and that emotionally, your daughter's being crippled..

Or, at least that's how it reads to me. 

If your wife is competent... There is no better option that home schooling... for all of your concerns above. Period. 

I, too, attended private schools until college. My parents sacrificed incredibly to give me that. And it wasn't until a decade later that I actually understood just how much I had been given. 

I also spent some years doing home schooling. It was THE defining period of my academic years, because I was in a program that pushed me ever so much more than even my much better than average other education did. 

Further.. children have no actual need to spend most of their day with other children. Your goal in life should not be to make them more like children by surrounding them with similarly immature examples. They need adults to learn from and be examples. 

That flies in the face of most conventional thought about education and socializing in pop culture today. But, I'd stake my life on it being absolutely true.


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