# 180 advice



## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

After much thought, I've decided that the 180 is my best chance to be happy, hopefully staying married and becoming happy again in the marriage. I'm sure there are pitfalls to avoid. I'm curious if anyone who has done this (successful or not) cares to share some advice, what worked and what didn't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

What is going on with your marriage? Adultery? Or are you just not getting along with your spouse?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

A FULL 180 is very extreme. It means you reject their overtures. If they say "I love you", you don't respond. It is really best suited to:
- Getting someone to stop an affair OR
- Resolving severe emotional abuse (when they are abusing you)

A 180 lite is different. It means that you don't "initiate" any loving gestures. But generally if your spouse makes loving gestures you don't reject them. 

With that said, there are some subtle gradations to choose from. For instance I absolutely believe that a "self centered" low drive spouse may frequently say "I love you" in this type situation. What they really mean is "do you love me". If you say ILY back to them, you are conveying (in their mind) that everything is still sort of ok. An alternative to responding with ILY - is to say "I am committed to you". This conveys that you are still invested in the marriage but are NOT feeling love. 

It is the "male" equivalent of "I love you but am not in love with you". Likewise she is going to do a lot of other things to try to get your attention in the hope of resolving her anxiety about the stability of the marriage. She may construct little "emergencies" that require your immediate attention. She may also ask you for acts of service that you have typically done in the past. The "male/martian" style response is to bluntly say "no". Personally I wouldn't do that. Instead I would use the long list of excuses SHE uses to avoid sex. 

1. I am kind of tired
2. I am busy right now, I will try to get to it, no promises
3. I am not really in the right frame of mind to do that
4. I am kind of stressed right now and don't really feel like it
5. Actually I was planning to go to the gym, I really need to ramp up my exercise schedule

My guess is her next step will be to attempt to provoke you and make you angry so you say/do something stupid and she can claim you are a jerk and demand you apologize make amends. Do NOT allow her to make you angry. You will likely do something stupid and that breaks the 180 lite dynamic. 

She will quickly realize what is happening. I would wait until she either:
- Acknowledges her role in this happening or
- If she pretends to be confuseed you can always tell her that you have a "low grade, perpetual headache caused by being deprioritized for a long time period". 

But I wouldn't do any of that until she comes to you WANTING to fix the problem. At that point, it is completely fair to have a calm, constructive conversation along the lines of:
You: Is my behavior causing you to feel anxious?
Her: some answer about anxious/anger/sadness
You: The way you feel right now - which is all caused by being deprioritized - that is how I FEEL most of the time. And then shut up and get her to talk. The less you say the better. The more she says - the better. 








phantomfan said:


> After much thought, I've decided that the 180 is my best chance to be happy, hopefully staying married and becoming happy again in the marriage. I'm sure there are pitfalls to avoid. I'm curious if anyone who has done this (successful or not) cares to share some advice, what worked and what didn't. _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> What is going on with your marriage? Adultery? Or are you just not getting along with your spouse?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not getting along, not getting what I need. I feel like I'm going over the top to please her and not getting emotional, physical, moral support and the respect..well that's dead too. It's been steadily getting worse and there have been a few times where I was away on business and things seemed to get weird. She steadfastly denies any cheating and I do believe she does love me and is committed. Having said that, I'm not entirely sure I believe her. I've been in plenty of situations on trips where alcohol was flowing and never once did I take the bait even though there were times that I sure felt like doing it out of spite and to get what I wasn't getting at home. 

I have been quite unhappy for some time. I did pull back with anger the last few weeks and did get a slightly less ambivalent response before I left on my current business trip. It still was a very dull, boring, hurtful and frustrating couple of weeks. I haven't contacted her since I left and I've responded if she asked me something. MEM is probably right. I'm not going to (hopefully) go to the extreme. I still have some anger issues to put away while I'm gone. Well at least get them to the point that I can remove it from carefully calculated responses to what I find when I get back.


----------



## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> A FULL 180 is very extreme. It means you reject their overtures. If they say "I love you", you don't respond. It is really best suited to:
> - Getting someone to stop an affair OR
> - Resolving severe emotional abuse (when they are abusing you)
> 
> ...


Great advice. Honestly right now I feel pretty "woman like" at the very thought of having sex with her period repulses me. It's not for a lack of physical attraction or compatibility. She played the "you don't find me attractive anymore" card a few times when my "interest" suddenly seemed to go away. I need a great answer for that one. 

De-prioritized is exactly how I feel. I'm dead last on the list with an asterix denoting more legalese than a house note when sex MAY be possible if I'm deserving and Jupiter, Saturn, Mars and the Moon come into perfect alignment.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Phantom,
After 22 years of a very happy and constructive marriage I have concluded that love is an ever shifting dynamic of positive emotion combined with commitment to your partner. When the positive emotion runs high, doing things that make them happy make YOU feel happy. Mostly my W and I truly enjoy pleasing each other physically and emotionally. When the emotion runs a bit lower, than we both step up to "at minimum" make the effort to avoid causing each other distress. 

My W and I are almost 50. Her libido has been very low for the last 4-5 years. And yet she has consistently made the effort to find a way to make our sex life "work" for both of us. And yes, I have done my share by "mostly" treating her the same way I would wish to be treated if the situation was reversed. 

That said we have had some missteps - if you like I will post the links to a couple threads about those incidents. In one of them I think it is fair to say I was able to re-orient her thinking rather quickly. In the other she very definitely increased my empathy level by a factor of 10. In both cases I feel like we each acted in good faith along the way. 




phantomfan said:


> Great advice. Honestly right now I feel pretty "woman like" at the very thought of having sex with her period repulses me. It's not for a lack of physical attraction or compatibility. She played the "you don't find me attractive anymore" card a few times when my "interest" suddenly seemed to go away. I need a great answer for that one.
> 
> De-prioritized is exactly how I feel. I'm dead last on the list with an asterix denoting more legalese than a house note when sex MAY be possible if I'm deserving and Jupiter, Saturn, Mars and the Moon come into perfect alignment.


----------



## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Phantom,
> After 22 years of a very happy and constructive marriage I have concluded that love is an ever shifting dynamic of positive emotion combined with commitment to your partner. When the positive emotion runs high, doing things that make them happy make YOU feel happy. Mostly my W and I truly enjoy pleasing each other physically and emotionally. When the emotion runs a bit lower, than we both step up to "at minimum" make the effort to avoid causing each other distress.
> 
> My W and I are almost 50. Her libido has been very low for the last 4-5 years. And yet she has consistently made the effort to find a way to make our sex life "work" for both of us. And yes, I have done my share by "mostly" treating her the same way I would wish to be treated if the situation was reversed.
> ...



Yes that would be great. The more information I have to think about/meditate/pray will help.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

You do need to do due diligence and check out your wife. You are showing the symptoms of a man living with a woman who’s being two faced with him. It’s probably why you are confused and can’t get things to add up. No matter what you try two and two just don’t come to four.




So I reckon your wife is not being honest with you and the question is “Why is she not being honest with you?”. If you ask her and she is being dishonest then she’s most certainly not going to tell you the truth so there’s no point in asking.

There’s possibly two reasons and both are forces external to your marriage. The first is an affair and the second a toxic friend or friends. These latter may be people you know exceedingly well (or at least thought you did) or a person or persons you’ve never met. Either way they darken your character and are out to get your wife to leave you.



So wise up, get wise and snoop on your wife. Install tracking systems on her computer and phone and voice activated recorders in your home and in her car. And then just carry on as normal (no 180 etc) and see what turns up.


If there is an affair going on or a toxic friend in the loop you'll just be spinning your wheels getting nowhere until they are resolved.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Phantom,
I love my W and value my marriage. I care about my W and am willing/able/glad to go out of my way to be a great partner. I did not do - what I did in the link below - lightly. I viewed the precipitating event as a serious threat to the marriage. In hindsight I would have handled the situation differently. I would have calmly and firmly asked questions instead of escalating the way that I did. Unfortunately when my W initially made her comment - out of the blue and with no warning - about our sex life being over it was after 3 days of her doing everything she could to start a major argument with me. And 3 days of me remaining calm and firm and not "outwardly" losing my cool. I had no idea she was trying to incite me to riot in order to create space and avoid sex. Enough preamble. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21276-hd-ld-when-worlds-collide.html




phantomfan said:


> Yes that would be great. The more information I have to think about/meditate/pray will help.


----------



## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Phantom,
> I love my W and value my marriage. I care about my W and am willing/able/glad to go out of my way to be a great partner. I did not do - what I did in the link below - lightly. I viewed the precipitating event as a serious threat to the marriage. In hindsight I would have handled the situation differently. I would have calmly and firmly asked questions instead of escalating the way that I did. Unfortunately when my W initially made her comment - out of the blue and with no warning - about our sex life being over it was after 3 days of her doing everything she could to start a major argument with me. And 3 days of me remaining calm and firm and not "outwardly" losing my cool. I had no idea she was trying to incite me to riot in order to create space and avoid sex. Enough preamble.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21276-hd-ld-when-worlds-collide.html


Thanks for the info. I'm there myself. The sad thing is right now, if some woman gave me the time of day, I'd be theirs till I got caught. I'm not a cheater, never cheated before but that's where I have been driven to. The only thing that's kept me from that right now is being too sad and depressed about where things stand to be desirable by anyone, myself included. I feel like I'm in mourning. I've been gone a couple weeks. Normally I'm nuts by now and so ready to get home. This trip, I 
don't want to come back. I miss the woman I fell in love with terribly but I do not miss the woman I left. I don't want to have sex with the woman I left when I get back and I'm pretty sure she will expect me to be hot and bothered like past trips. Part of me somewhere is but the part in charge isn't having it. 

I'm sure she will accuse me of cheating which will be a great conversation about I'm ready to and she's turned me off from the damage of rejecting me and not meeting my needs. She will tell me how shes trying and wants me but I'm a fiend and not sensitive to her which is subterfuge. She claims its a hormone thing and would go to the doc but I know she won't. 

The bad homecoming will be my fault completely, I screwed up her mood. She'll tell me she's done trying and going to teach me a lesson about how bad it will feel to have no sex at all. I'm still too hurt and angry that I'm pretty sure its going to be an ugly homecoming. It would take a small miracle for things to not go down like that. I sincerely hope I'm wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Phantom,
What happened to the 180. What you are describing is a very "hot" encounter with the following subtext: 
Her: You are being a jerk
You: I am angry that you don't love me as much as I love you and that you take me for granted

That is not going to make this better. 

Psychology 101 as it pertains to adult females. 
1. They take care of the very young and very old
2. Their "man" takes care of them
3. If their man is "needy" they shut down sexually

If however their man is the opposite of "needy", if he is becoming "indifferent" to them, that creates voltage across their bonding circuitry. And their bonding circuitry drives their libido more than anything else. 

If you come home and are friendly/happy but not really paying much attention to her or what she does/doesn't do - THAT will get her attention. Pay a lot of attention to the kids and be very warm/loving with them. 

Let her initiate. If she doesn't, make yourself scarce between now and your next trip. Better yet schedule a mini-trip with some guy friends. Or go visit a family member you haven't seen in a while for a 3 day weekend. Don't present it in a spiteful way. Just casually mention it and then go do it. 

Being visibly angry at her is the single most *UN 180 *thing you can do. 




phantomfan said:


> Thanks for the info. I'm there myself. The sad thing is right now, if some woman gave me the time of day, I'd be theirs till I got caught. I'm not a cheater, never cheated before but that's where I have been driven to. The only thing that's kept me from that right now is being too sad and depressed about where things stand to be desirable by anyone, myself included. I feel like I'm in mourning. I've been gone a couple weeks. Normally I'm nuts by now and so ready to get home. This trip, I
> don't want to come back. I miss the woman I fell in love with terribly but I do not miss the woman I left. I don't want to have sex with the woman I left when I get back and I'm pretty sure she will expect me to be hot and bothered like past trips. Part of me somewhere is but the part in charge isn't having it.
> 
> I'm sure she will accuse me of cheating which will be a great conversation about I'm ready to and she's turned me off from the damage of rejecting me and not meeting my needs. She will tell me how shes trying and wants me but I'm a fiend and not sensitive to her which is subterfuge. She claims its a hormone thing and would go to the doc but I know she won't.
> ...


----------



## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Phantom,
> What happened to the 180. What you are describing is a very "hot" encounter with the following subtext:
> Her: You are being a jerk
> You: I am angry that you don't love me as much as I love you and that you take me for granted
> ...


I'm aware, and I'm still hoping that I can do that and it won't go the ugly route. Just anxiety and the unknown talking for the most part. I've got a few more days to practice and prepare.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Prepare yourself for either outcome. 

Even if she DOES take you to bed, don't wake up the next morning all warm and loving. Be friendly, playful and a bit amused. Amused as in you should be thinking "you may think that one night in bed is your get out of jail free card - but until I see sustained effort I am friendly but cool". You can be playful - but in a "hard to get" way. If she suggests dinner out you can just laugh and say "the dating machinery is temporarily out of commission for servicing". And leave it at that. Don't explain or apologize. Do not do anything generous. Nada. She is starving you of love likely because she has perceived your kindness as weakness. Make her chase you. But ultimately - the conversation from the link above - is a fair and above board way to deal with this if all else fails. If you "cheat" and get caught you will have a hard time convincing her/the extended family it was her "fault". You will be branded the bad guy unless you are remarkably strong. 




phantomfan said:


> I'm aware, and I'm still hoping that I can do that and it won't go the ugly route. Just anxiety and the unknown talking for the most part. I've got a few more days to practice and prepare.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Prepare yourself for either outcome.
> 
> Even if she DOES take you to bed, don't wake up the next morning all warm and loving. Be friendly, playful and a bit amused. Amused as in you should be thinking "you may think that one night in bed is your get out of jail free card - but until I see sustained effort I am friendly but cool". You can be playful - but in a "hard to get" way. If she suggests dinner out you can just laugh and say "the dating machinery is temporarily out of commission for servicing". And leave it at that. Don't explain or apologize. Do not do anything generous. Nada. She is starving you of love likely because she has perceived your kindness as weakness. Make her chase you. But ultimately - the conversation from the link above - is a fair and above board way to deal with this if all else fails. If you "cheat" and get caught you will have a hard time convincing her/the extended family it was her "fault". You will be branded the bad guy unless you are remarkably strong.


Right. I guess that's what I'm trying to do. I have a bad poker face so unless I'm prepared very well, its going to be hard to play things cool and correct. When I did a 180 in a past relationship, I was moving on. I didn't have to pretend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

AFEH said:


> You do need to do due diligence and check out your wife. You are showing the symptoms of a man living with a woman who’s being two faced with him. It’s probably why you are confused and can’t get things to add up. No matter what you try two and two just don’t come to four.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She's not a deceitful or dishonest person. If she was that untrustworthy, I wouldn't be here, I'd be contacting a lawyer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

My goodness you asked her if she’s cheating and she denied it. What did you expect her to do? Own up to it if she is cheating?


That’s like asking the thief if he was the one who stole your money when you haven’t any proof and expecting him to own up to it instead of denying it.



Of course if your wife is cheating she will deny it. It’s just one lie covered up by many more as time goes by. But carry on burying your head in the sand.


----------



## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

phantomfan said:


> When I did a 180 in a past relationship, I was moving on. I didn't have to pretend.


It's amazing how well it works when you just don't care anymore and are emotionally disengaging from the other person. Too bad it has to come to that.


----------



## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

It is and the saddest thing for me is my current wife is a great person. I know she is a fair and honest person. She treats most of the people in her life very well. I feel like I'm getting the last of what's left not her best. I know she could chooses to change and I'm right there wanting, hoping and wishing that I don't have to take the next step of moving on. It would be such a waste and completely unnecessary. It is too bad it has to come to that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## mrmagoo (Feb 21, 2012)

phantomfan said:


> It is and the saddest thing for me is my current wife is a great person. I know she is a fair and honest person. She treats most of the people in her life very well. I feel like I'm getting the last of what's left not her best. I know she could chooses to change and I'm right there wanting, hoping and wishing that I don't have to take the next step of moving on. It would be such a waste and completely unnecessary. It is too bad it has to come to that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


exact same boat brother, its so senseless but it is what it is.


----------



## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> "tell her that you have a "low grade, perpetual headache caused by being deprioritized for a long time period".


genius!


----------

