# Why is it so hard to be free with the person we love



## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

I read a post by one of the members here about a swinging couple (This is not a swinging topic so please don't try twist it into one )
his post went along the lines of that a husband talked his wife into sleeping with his friend and when he saw her so liberated and with out any inhibitions he had second thoughts about their relationship ,
It IS NOT the first time I have come across this type story of women that when they are cheating or swinging or even sex friends ARE A LOT MORE able to relax and do things they would not do with their long term partner, 

we hare the same of men that go to escort girls BECAUSE THEY get the escort to do things they never ask or show their wife , weather it is dominant sex or letting them ware women's outfits or knickers / tights , or what ever kink they are into 

so why is it so hard to let the person they are with know about what ever their kink is or even fully let go 

Too often we see posts here about people that once the ring goes on they or more so the sex changes , it can't be all that it was an act to get the ring on their finger entrapment ,


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Personally, I don't think it's about entrapment. To me, it's a lack of trust.

I think it's very easy to be open and free with strangers, because they don't know you. It's almost like playing a part.

But the longer you're with someone, the more the hiding kicks into gear.

And lots of times, that's earned. If we share who we are with someone, and they misuse that information, a lack of trust is bound to build up. 

Also, when people just hurt one another in general, blocking ourselves off to prevent more damage is what we do. It's protection.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

This may not be what your talking about but nevertheless I’ll tell you. 
Men don’t pay escorts/hookers for sex. They pay them to leave afterwards.Sex with their wife’s isn’t the problem, everything else is.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

minimalME said:


> To me, it's a lack of trust.


I agree a lot is a lack of trust , and a fear of showing that vulnerable side , 
in case they see it and don't like it or think of us differently 

WE HAVE on french TV real life stories from court cases and divorce cases and other professional people that get a look into what goes on behind couples doors ,

WHEN you see the men that are into things like cross dressing , and when it comes down to it what difference is it to us , or other stories


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## gameopoly5 (5 mo ago)

My answer to the OP`s question, it`s all about control.
If one partner wants to have regular sex and at times wants to put some zest into it, maybe live out a sexual fantasy with a partner that is somewhat adventurous but not too extreme, on the lines as the OP has mentioned and the other partner refuses and imposes rules or places sex on ration, that is a form of control, which gives power over a partner.
And if a partner becomes scared of asking a partner for more adventurous sex knowing that partner will reciprocate with a hostile or strong disapproval reaction, that too is a form of power and dominance in the relationship.
This is why I believe in sex before marriage, it`s like test driving a car before deciding to buy it or not. Because if a person is sexually limited prior to marriage, than it is likely that`s how it is going to be during the marriage.
It`s true that some women act like raving nymphos while courting and once married then that all changes.
It is fact that women are the gatekeepers regarding sex, they mostly choose when and how.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

Andy1001 said:


> This may not be what your talking about but nevertheless I’ll tell you.
> Men don’t pay escorts/hookers for sex. They pay them to leave afterwards.Sex with their wife’s isn’t the problem, everything else is.


 many Escorts when they tell their story take of the married men as some just want to talk , some want kinky that they are not getting at home , what the others want I don't know or have forgotten , 
but IT WOULD be interesting to know if the wife had the chance would she share the need if it can be called that if she know he wanted it instead of going to an escort for it


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

frenchpaddy said:


> I read a post by one of the members here about a swinging couple (This is not a swinging topic so please don't try twist it into one )
> his post went along the lines of that a husband talked his wife into sleeping with his friend and when he saw her so liberated and with out any inhibitions he had second thoughts about their relationship ,
> It IS NOT the first time I have come across this type story of women that when they are cheating or swinging or even sex friends ARE A LOT MORE able to relax and do things they would not do with their long term partner,
> 
> ...


I've no doubt fear of rejection and or humiliation over admitting ones desires plays a big role.

That said I am not afraid of going there. That's why I get to share lots of anal sex with my wife, and also have her give me anilingus. Plus I get to leave bite marks on my wife's breasts, give her golden showers, drip candle wax on her, fist her and share many other things as well.

In my experience if you want to share something sexually with a spouse, you have a better chance of it happening by bringing it up than keeping it a secret from them.



> Too often we see posts here about people that once the ring goes on they or more so the sex changes , it can't be all that it was an act to get the ring on their finger entrapment ,


Yep, I don't think such instance were prefaced with an act before the ring went on at all. Sometimes it is simply down to boredom creeping in.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

gameopoly5 said:


> My answer to the OP`s question, it`s all about control.
> If one partner wants to have regular sex and at times wants to put some zest into it, maybe live out a sexual fantasy with a partner that is somewhat adventurous but not too extreme, on the lines as the OP has mentioned and the other partner refuses and imposes rules or places sex on ration, that is a form of control, which gives power over a partner.
> And if a partner becomes scared of asking a partner for more adventurous sex knowing that partner will reciprocate with a hostile or strong disapproval reaction, that too is a form of power and dominance in the relationship.
> This is why I believe in sex before marriage, it`s like test driving a car before deciding to buy it or not. Because if a person is sexually limited prior to marriage, than it is likely that`s how it is going to be during the marriage.
> ...


I agree with you on the sex before M ,
just many that have sex before marriage don't show their true side ,

It WAS YOUR POST that sparked this topic 
I read it a few days ago and it stuck in my mind , I have read other stories along the same lines , one the guy explained how it was his dream for years to have his wife play with other guys why I don't know , he went on to explain how they meet up with the first guy and how he undressed his wife for this stranger and how he saw his shy wife turn into a different person , she ended up loosing herself so much that it was as if her husband was not in the room , and at that time the guy that had wished for this for so long could only think of " what have I DONE " in the end of the night they all said good bye and the couple went home and never talked about what had happened , it was a day before he and she talked and they still swing or what ever they are into , 
but I did not want to take the topic off topic no more than I WANT THI TO BE TAKING OFF 
some thing I am good at my self at times lol


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

Yeah, I think so too (agreeing with others).

Fear of rejection, trust, openness and being vulnerable, emotional intimacy, all play a part in building that wall between spouses. For the flip side, the spouse who walks on the wild side doesn't have those issues with a stranger, or, the thrill of the moment and the desire to please an AP is enough to overcome him/her.


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## gameopoly5 (5 mo ago)

frenchpaddy said:


> I agree with you on the sex before M ,
> just many that have sex before marriage don't show their true side ,
> 
> It WAS YOUR POST that sparked this topic
> ...


My wife and I have been married since the Jurassic period, but I still find her physically attractive.
I am still very much love my wife, she`s only 4ft 11in tall and I call her, my little bundle of love. 
I`ll be honest with you, our sex life, if I can describe it as that is nothing to boast about.
Guess many guys can relate to this: shall we do the deed tonight darling? OK, but first take a shower, cut your nails, close the bedroom curtains, dim the light.
Clothes don`t come off until in the bedroom, always has to be in the bedroom, she lays there like a shop mannequin, please don`t touch here and don`t touch there. That`s how it`s been for years. 
Some years ago I did go with an escort having been so sexually frustrated. One of the biggest anti climaxes ever even through the girl was a looker. Not only was it very expensive, it became all about, doing as little as possible in the shortest amount of time for as much money as possible, it wasn`t much different to having it with the wife except a darn more expensive.
The best aphrodisiac for women is alcohol. I`ve known women who when sober were total prudes regarding sex and after a couple of drinks they were anybodies. This is not being derogatory towards women, I have witnessed this myself. 
My wife doesn`t drink, makes her feel sick she says. I`ve often thought about slipping her some alcohol without her noticing to see if that can bring out a **** side of her, but haven`t had the guts to do that yet in-case it makes her sick.
I know many women have 2 sides to them and it only takes the right environment and the right situation to bring this other side out.
I have more stories to tell about how wives that are usually sexually frigid with their husbands had become totally uninhibited when they`ve met other guys at a party. All true, one couldn`t make this up.
I`ll post another one soon.


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## gameopoly5 (5 mo ago)

OK, another true story:
This happened to my cousin in the UK 28 years ago, we were close and had been brought up together. .He had been married to his wife for 12 years and had 2 children.
They were invited to a party of some friends, another married couple. His wife was drinking throughout the evening and as it drew on his wife was starting to get more and more drunk. He noticed his wife was getting flirty with a guy on a sofa. Then it somehow got round to doing partner swapping. This wasn`t my cousin`s scene so he decided to use the bathroom and then take himself and wife home. When he came back downstairs from the bathroom he witnessed his wife being really into it with that guy she was flirting with on the living room floor in front of everyone with some other couples, an orgy in-fact.. My cousin stood over his wife and the guy in astonishment but his wife kept going, totally drunk and oblivious her husband was watching her, she was wriggling and throbbing about as if having an epileptic fit.. My cousin walked out, drove home in his car leaving his wife at the party, packed his bags and moved in with his parents, my aunt and uncle. She arrived back at their marital home the following morning. He could not erase that image from his mind and a couple of days later he filed for divorce.. True story.
Even today that is still the talk of my family.
Many women can let their hair down, given the right environment and circumstances, many woman can have a side to them screaming to get out.
Sadly, that incident broke my cousin, a year later he suffered a mild stroke. He`s still alive today but can`t walk ver well and has numbness on his left side. He is old now and never married again.
We all blamed his wife for my cousins decline in health. Very sad because he was like a brother to me.
My question to some of the guys: should my cousin had dragged his wife out of there or did he do right by leaving her and going home?


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

gameopoly5 said:


> My question to some of the guys: should my cousin had dragged his wife out of there or did he do right by leaving her and going home?


Minor T/J
He probably did the right thing for his own peace of mind and being able to stand by his own convictions. His wife can behave any way she wants, as she apparently did.

But being honest, I think I would have a hard time leaving her there. It was a volatile environment and she's compromised (inebriated) and I think the “protector” instinct would have made me drag her away. But that opens the door to fighting and begging and all manner of attacks on the convictions to divorce her.

I wouldn’t say either way was wrong, it just depends on the guy.


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## Jimi007 (6 mo ago)

@gameopoly5 I would have dragged her out as soon as the flirting started. And I would have had words with the guy. He knew she was married and drunk


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## Bulfrog1987 (Oct 8, 2021)

Trust. I loved my husband yet he was not a safe space to be open with in any way. Emotionally or sexual. He was most worried about his own pleasure. Anything he ‘did for me’ wasn’t for me, but to make him feel more like a man. 

If I asked for something to be done a little different or changed up, he would get offended. I know I’m hindsight he was just insecure and that was the driving force for his reactions in the bedroom. Therefor, I simply did the thing he wanted without regard. It was just easier. Lackluster doesn’t even touch it though but if I didn’t ‘criticize’ then my life wasn’t much easier.


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## gameopoly5 (5 mo ago)

Jimi007 said:


> @gameopoly5 I would have dragged her out as soon as the flirting started. And I would have had words with the guy. He knew she was married and drunk


It is said the true person is exposed either by what they say or act when they`re drunk.
My cousin`s wife was doing things with that guy that she had never done with him throughout their whole marriage even when she`d had a few drinks.
My point being, when a wife acts like a prude with her husband while married, it doesn`t always mean that`s her real character, she`s only like that with her husband.
If this had been me I think I`d also had left her there because I would have been repulsed and shocked discovering the real her and she`d never shown her real characterr when with me.
But there are no rights and wrongs to my question, people may react in different ways if unfortunate enough to be in that situation, but it`s good to get other perspectives on this story.


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## Loves Coffee (4 mo ago)

It's a mental problem by nature. It requires cognition and action. Many are dealing with issues and are not willing to confront or explore them. Instead, they would rather just ignore them and do as little as possible. The receiving spouse lets them get away with it, so the problem is allowed to continue.

It's like my first wife. I tried for years to get her to relax and enjoy sex. She had a lot of issues growing up. Does that have something to do with it? Hell if I know. After I left her for being so frigid in and out of bed (she would never really open up emotionally to me as well), I started seeing her posting slutty pictures of herself on social media. Things she would never have done before. I don't see myself as the problem in that scenario. I was the only one trying to talk and resolve the issue. She would just sit in silence. If she had an issue with me that was causing her behavior, she should have told me. Good riddance.

Any more after seeing others and experiencing so many problems in this area, I have a very low tolerance for this issue. I will not martyr myself in a marriage with a crappy sex life. If other people will, then they have to lay in that bed they made so to speak.


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## Jimi007 (6 mo ago)

gameopoly5 said:


> It is said the true person is exposed either by what they say or act when they`re drunk.
> My cousin`s wife was doing things with that guy that she had never done with him throughout their whole marriage even when she`d had a few drinks.
> My point being, when a wife acts like a prude with her husband while married, it doesn`t always mean that`s her real character, she`s only like that with her husband.
> If this had been me I think I`d also had left her there because I would have been repulsed and shocked discovering the real her and she`d never shown her real characterr when with me.
> But there are no rights and wrongs to my question, people may react in different ways if unfortunate enough to be in that situation, but it`s good to get other perspectives on this story.


I would have never have left her there drunk. I would have stopped it as soon as it got started...She's drunk..you don't leave her to the wolves...Your cousin didn't act like a husband 😒 They probably ran a train on her..Hubby left...seen it before


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## gameopoly5 (5 mo ago)

Loves Coffee said:


> It's a mental problem by nature. It requires cognition and action. Many are dealing with issues and are not willing to confront or explore them. Instead, they would rather just ignore them and do as little as possible. The receiving spouse lets them get away with it, so the problem is allowed to continue.
> 
> It's like my first wife. I tried for years to get her to relax and enjoy sex. She had a lot of issues growing up. Does that have something to do with it? Hell if I know. After I left her for being so frigid in and out of bed (she would never really open up emotionally to me as well), I started seeing her posting slutty pictures of herself on social media. Things she would never have done before. I don't see myself as the problem in that scenario. I was the only one trying to talk and resolve the issue. She would just sit in silence. If she had an issue with me that was causing her behavior, she should have told me. Good riddance.
> 
> Any more after seeing others and experiencing so many problems in this area, I have a very low tolerance for this issue. I will not martyr myself in a marriage with a crappy sex life. If other people will, then they have to lay in that bed they made so to speak.


Your post has kind of confirmed something to me and also relates to the OP`s post.
I am forming an opinion that when wives begin limiting their husbands in the bedroom department it could mean either three things.
1. She is suffering from depressing.
2. The wife has an health issue, could be both mental or physical.
3. And this is the most likely, the wife is no longer into her husband, she has emotionally checked out and why as mentioned in my previous post a wife can be a completely different person with other people.
None of this will change regardless how well a husband may treat her.


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## umbluu (Jan 24, 2020)

David Schnarch wrote quite a lot about this phenomenon. I personally prefer "Passionate marriage" to his other books. It was written when he was still a regular therapist, not a great guru, and it is less marketing-y... anyway, the summary - most people are not at the level of personal development that would allow them to f**k their support system. This level of development can be achieved, but it requires conscious effort.


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## GoodDad5 (9 mo ago)

Boy this subject hits close to home. My wife is frigid when it comes to sex. Can’t have too many lights on, same position, same foreplay all towards her, nothing that I have been asking to do like oral or role play or even dressing intimately. She swears her childhood was trauma free; she chooses what she likes and dislikes with sex. I feel inadequate.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Bulfrog1987 said:


> Trust. I loved my husband yet he was not a safe space to be open with in any way. Emotionally or sexual. He was most worried about his own pleasure. Anything he ‘did for me’ wasn’t for me, but to make him feel more like a man.
> 
> If I asked for something to be done a little different or changed up, he would get offended. I know I’m hindsight he was just insecure and that was the driving force for his reactions in the bedroom. Therefor, I simply did the thing he wanted without regard. It was just easier. Lackluster doesn’t even touch it though but if I didn’t ‘criticize’ then my life wasn’t much easier.


I keep seeing “trust” come up. 

Your situation is different because of your marriage and how terrible your husband treated you, but with a normal man, why is trust so difficult? 

I’m not dumb. My exwife will most likely do everything under the sun for her next partner. That’s just how these things usually go. I’m not bitter about it. It’s just the way things are. 

How is it though that she couldn’t trust me after 20 years if it truly is about trust? And I definitely asked for MANY things in the bedroom that we never got around to doing. 

So she trusted me to take care of her. She trusts me around our children. She trusts me alone with our children - but she didn’t trust me in the bedroom when I never gave her one reason not to…..

I don’t think it is just trust. I think it is trust in certain situations, but I don’t think it is trust every time. 

I think it has more to do with (some) women wanting to keep up a certain image. I think some women want to look like the perfect wife to the husband and others around her. She doesn’t want the husband to look at her like a promiscuous, loose or easy woman. Sad truth is that husbands WANT their wives to be that way with them in the bedroom! That’s when you are supposed to let your freak flag fly!


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

gameopoly5 said:


> Your post has kind of confirmed something to me and also relates to the OP`s post.
> I am forming an opinion that when wives begin limiting their husbands in the bedroom department it could mean either three things.
> 1. She is suffering from depressing.
> 2. The wife has an health issue, could be both mental or physical.
> ...


The answer you are seeking falls under number three...and it ties into your last statement, which is factually incorrect. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

gameopoly5 said:


> Your post has kind of confirmed something to me and also relates to the OP`s post.
> I am forming an opinion that when wives begin limiting their husbands in the bedroom department it could mean either three things.
> 1. She is suffering from depressing.
> 2. The wife has an health issue, could be both mental or physical.
> ...


Or 4. you forgot the handcuffs and gag.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Likely more common in a serious note is one or the other spouse is getting lazy, or they both are.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

gameopoly5 said:


> OK, another true story:
> This happened to my cousin in the UK 28 years ago, we were close and had been brought up together. .He had been married to his wife for 12 years and had 2 children.
> They were invited to a party of some friends, another married couple. His wife was drinking throughout the evening and as it drew on his wife was starting to get more and more drunk. He noticed his wife was getting flirty with a guy on a sofa. Then it somehow got round to doing partner swapping. This wasn`t my cousin`s scene so he decided to use the bathroom and then take himself and wife home. When he came back downstairs from the bathroom he witnessed his wife being really into it with that guy she was flirting with on the living room floor in front of everyone with some other couples, an orgy in-fact.. My cousin stood over his wife and the guy in astonishment but his wife kept going, totally drunk and oblivious her husband was watching her, she was wriggling and throbbing about as if having an epileptic fit.. My cousin walked out, drove home in his car leaving his wife at the party, packed his bags and moved in with his parents, my aunt and uncle. She arrived back at their marital home the following morning. He could not erase that image from his mind and a couple of days later he filed for divorce.. True story.
> Even today that is still the talk of my family.
> ...


Where I’m from we call that rape.


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## moon7 (May 5, 2013)

frenchpaddy said:


> I read a post by one of the members here about a swinging couple (This is not a swinging topic so please don't try twist it into one )
> his post went along the lines of that a husband talked his wife into sleeping with his friend and when he saw her so liberated and with out any inhibitions he had second thoughts about their relationship ,
> It IS NOT the first time I have come across this type story of women that when they are cheating or swinging or even sex friends ARE A LOT MORE able to relax and do things they would not do with their long term partner,
> 
> ...


I highly suspect its more related to avoidant people. I just wrote in the "Orgasm" post that i never received oral, but i know my H gave his ex gf oral, for example. And no matter how much i ask he doesnt want to talk about it, about kinks, about anything with me. The same for kissing, he seems embarrassed. I get his junk while he is doing some work, i wanna do sex massage, i wanna try sexy clothes he get all embarrassed. At the same time ive caught him researching hot escorts online nearby so he could get the same things i offer him. I think he never got the oportunity of hiring one bc he married crazy (me). But, yeah, i believe its related to the group of avoidant personalities. There are things they seem to feel as if its too personal for the ones close to them, so they go and look for it far (the imaginary "consequences" of asking or doing are "high", while with an idealistic other partner the risks are "low". Like they idealize a perfect person who wont ever judge them. For me it seems its a problem related more with the imagination, then with sex itself).


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

moon7 said:


> I highly suspect its more related to avoidant people. I just wrote in the "Orgasm" post that i never received oral, but i know my H gave his ex gf oral, for example. And no matter how much i ask he doesnt want to talk about it, about kinks, about anything with me. The same for kissing, he seems embarrassed. I get his junk while he is doing some work, i wanna do sex massage, i wanna try sexy clothes he get all embarrassed. At the same time ive caught him researching hot escorts online nearby so he could get the same things i offer him. I think he never got the oportunity of hiring one bc he married crazy (me). But, yeah, i believe its related to the group of avoidant personalities. There are things they seem to feel as if its too personal for the ones close to them, so they go and look for it far (the imaginary "consequences" of asking or doing are "high", while with an idealistic other partner the risks are "low". Like they idealize a perfect person who wont ever judge them. For me it seems its a problem related more with the imagination, then with sex itself).


He has lost his damn mind then! 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Seriously, I hope it gets better for you. H has some negative issues.


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## TinyTbone (6 mo ago)

I feel it is about our insecurities from whether we are good partners sexually to being able to talk about our sexuality. Been married to the same lady since the time of Moses and I wish now we could have talked as freely and frankly then as now. I feel we would certainly have had a more proactive intimate life. Where as I am very open minded and pretty much anything goes between two people, she's a real closed minded prudish person. That is starting to change though. She will openly engage in talks of this nature, likes dislikes, possibilities. Yet I still have to initiate the conversation.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

frenchpaddy said:


> I read a post by one of the members here about a swinging couple (This is not a swinging topic so please don't try twist it into one )
> his post went along the lines of that a husband talked his wife into sleeping with his friend and when he saw her so liberated and with out any inhibitions he had second thoughts about their relationship ,
> It IS NOT the first time I have come across this type story of women that when they are cheating or swinging or even sex friends ARE A LOT MORE able to relax and do things they would not do with their long term partner,
> 
> ...


It's about boundaries and precedents. You don't want to get something started that you will have trouble stopping with your spouse. You don't know if you're going to like something. You'll never hear the end of it if you do it once and he loves it and you hate it. 

It's nothing to do with entrapment, but besides what I just said, new person is exciting. When you're dating early on it's really hard to avoid projecting your ideal person in your head on to whoever you're dating hoping that's who they are. So when you're making out with your ideal person that's pretty exciting. It's what's in your head. 

But no one is that person in your head. You come down to earth and hopefully settle into something that you can both live with, but for many people it's never going to have the same excitement. 

That's where it becomes a personal thing based on your personality. Different people want different combinations of security, closeness, or excitement and I'm sure many other things. That's why some people are very cautious and others aren't. 

I was always an excitement junkie so I understand that. I understood it well enough that I never really wanted to get married and didn't, though I did settle down a lot as I got older. But that doesn't mean I started wanting the routine of the same person, or to be fair at least not one that I had met. 

For some being with the same person makes for over familiarity in the literal sense that they may begin to seem more like a family member such as sibling or parent than a romantic interest.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Andy1001 said:


> This may not be what your talking about but nevertheless I’ll tell you.
> Men don’t pay escorts/hookers for sex. They pay them to leave afterwards.Sex with their wife’s isn’t the problem, everything else is.


I think that's very true but I also think a lot of the younger less experienced guys are paying them for validation and for a confidence boost and that a lot of married guys are paying them to hear those words that they deserve better than their wife and the wife doesn't know how lucky she is. Celebrities are paying them to go away and to keep their mouth shut.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

frenchpaddy said:


> many Escorts when they tell their story take of the married men as some just want to talk , some want kinky that they are not getting at home , what the others want I don't know or have forgotten ,
> but IT WOULD be interesting to know if the wife had the chance would she share the need if it can be called that if she know he wanted it instead of going to an escort for it


I think that sort of stuff is best discussed before marriage. Then they can say yay or nay. Men will tell me anything. Too much sometimes. 

There are people who are just not going to want to hear it who just want to cruise along without bumps.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Not sure why this is hard to understand. Let's take good communication, of all the marriages what percentage would you say have good communication? 15%, at best 20%? So why would sex be any different? In my experience to have a good marriage you need two very emotionally sophisticated individuals who have strong character and are motivated to have one, that includes a good sex life. Most people are selfish.

In this world how many people do you think are like that in society today?

Besides that what's your sample size, one time against hundreds of times. So you cook dinner hundreds of thousands of times in a lifetime, some are great, some not so much. Again why is sex any different. Even in my analogy if you treat it like making dinner, like it's a requirement she is probably also going to treat it as such.

Finally don't make the mistake of being a man and thinking you have any idea what's going on in a women's mind especially while she is having sex. For all that guy knows she looks exactly the same if like she enjoys it more with him, but he is busy at the time.

At the expense of my own advice above I will say this, as far as I can tell lots of women need to feel emotionally safe and connected to be open sexually. These are generally the type who are not going to be eager to sleep with your friends once married, quite the opposite. So pushing her to do so is going to have the opposite effect.

FINALLY AND OP PAY ATTENTION TO THIS ONE - Why would you put even a mynute amount of stock into some fools perception of his wife when he spend months trying to get her to sleep with his friend.

I mean really? This is the guy you going to for tips about sex and women? Hell his wife probably was acting that way out of spite.

I mean Good luck.

Honestly women are not open with guys like this because they are dumb asses. I feel bad for the wife's who probably feel obligated to have sex with them!

A guy pushing his wife into hot wife to improve their sex life is like a surgeon who wears caters mitts during surgery.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

Maybe there are drugs involved or shock.

I mean really, if I was to be convinced by a spouse to sleep with a friend? I’d need to be broken down significantly to agree to such a thing. And the actual act, where I might be perceived as liberated and wild and free?? Probably shock. Or a cry for help. I’d certainly be acting differently that’s for sure. And I’d need to be drugged to get through an act like that.


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## gameopoly5 (5 mo ago)

Some years ago one of my friends and I (Dave) went for a breakfast at a working man`s cafe, one of those places we jokingly used to call, the greasy spoon.
Dave was never one to mince his words, he`d say whatever he was thinking, an upfront guy. Sometimes too upfront but I respected him for that.
The middle aged lady waitress placed the food on our table and said, the way to a man`s heart is through his stomach. Dave gave a quick response and replied, the way to a man`s heart is through his d*ck. I can remember the look of shock on the waitress face as she walked away.
He wasn`t deliberately being insulting to the woman, Dave was a, I say what I mean and mean what I say guy.
Those words have always stuck in my memory and thinking about it logically, he was right.
Most men, including me are like big kids. If women know the right buttons to press they can have us wrapped around their little fingers.
Prostitutes have learned this. The more of themselves they give up to male customers or the girlfriend experience, the more money and tips a male customer will give her.
Regardless of what is often said; sex does play an important role in marriage. For many men sex is a way of bonding and showing their love, otherwise being in a sexless marriage fails to keep intimacy between the couple, it becomes like 2 people sharing the same house with an awful lot of frustrated husbands out there not happy in their marriages.
Unless a couple have health issues or very old, if a wife considers sex of little or no significance in a marriage, then the marriage icing on the cake goes stale, as does the marriage.
And as of the stories I`ve told about wives giving up more of themselves to other guys than to their husbands, means to me the wives have never been or are no longer into their husbands emotionally and physically, because with women they rarely display their true feelings or give hints what they are thinking, it often can become a one sided communication falling on deaf ears.


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## plastow (Jan 4, 2022)

frenchpaddy said:


> I read a post by one of the members here about a swinging couple (This is not a swinging topic so please don't try twist it into one )
> his post went along the lines of that a husband talked his wife into sleeping with his friend and when he saw her so liberated and with out any inhibitions he had second thoughts about their relationship ,
> It IS NOT the first time I have come across this type story of women that when they are cheating or swinging or even sex friends ARE A LOT MORE able to relax and do things they would not do with their long term partner,
> 
> ...


hi i am the person you refered to,and thinking about what you say rings a bell.my wife has never in all those years been sexually adventurous and in fact downright boring we have over the years talked about it but all she does is say you tell me what you want and i will see.then after a few times it goes back to normal.we are very much in love but sex has never been very exciting ,thats why when the chance came up i thought it would be so hot.but she was a different person to the one ive known for so many years and thinking about it i think that helped to make me so uneasy with what went on.


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## Jimi007 (6 mo ago)

plastow said:


> hi i am the person you refered to,and thinking about what you say rings a bell.my wife has never in all those years been sexually adventurous and in fact downright boring we have over the years talked about it but all she does is say you tell me what you want and i will see.then after a few times it goes back to normal.we are very much in love but sex has never been very exciting ,thats why when the chance came up i thought it would be so hot.but she was a different person to the one ive known for so many years and thinking about it i think that helped to make me so uneasy with what went on.


Was it a once and done ? Or did she want to do it again ?


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## plastow (Jan 4, 2022)

Jimi007 said:


> Was it a once and done ? Or did she want to do it again ?


once and done it has left me very unsure of myself and still unsettled about her on the night .but it was my idea not her she just took over on the night which is again what i imagined it would be but i dint ever think she would make the first move nor be so into it.i,m not blaming her i stopped doing that ages ago but it shook me.


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## plastow (Jan 4, 2022)

gameopoly5 said:


> OK, another true story:
> This happened to my cousin in the UK 28 years ago, we were close and had been brought up together. .He had been married to his wife for 12 years and had 2 children.
> They were invited to a party of some friends, another married couple. His wife was drinking throughout the evening and as it drew on his wife was starting to get more and more drunk. He noticed his wife was getting flirty with a guy on a sofa. Then it somehow got round to doing partner swapping. This wasn`t my cousin`s scene so he decided to use the bathroom and then take himself and wife home. When he came back downstairs from the bathroom he witnessed his wife being really into it with that guy she was flirting with on the living room floor in front of everyone with some other couples, an orgy in-fact.. My cousin stood over his wife and the guy in astonishment but his wife kept going, totally drunk and oblivious her husband was watching her, she was wriggling and throbbing about as if having an epileptic fit.. My cousin walked out, drove home in his car leaving his wife at the party, packed his bags and moved in with his parents, my aunt and uncle. She arrived back at their marital home the following morning. He could not erase that image from his mind and a couple of days later he filed for divorce.. True story.
> Even today that is still the talk of my family.
> ...


as she was drunk out of her mind he should have pulled her from the guys clutches and dragged her home.had a long talk with her in the morning and either leave or install boundaries of not drinking so much and staying close to her husband.i undrstand he would be so angry so would i but he left her there to be used by whoever.he did have some responsailty to protect her even from herself as her husband.


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## plastow (Jan 4, 2022)

moon7 said:


> I highly suspect its more related to avoidant people. I just wrote in the "Orgasm" post that i never received oral, but i know my H gave his ex gf oral, for example. And no matter how much i ask he doesnt want to talk about it, about kinks, about anything with me. The same for kissing, he seems embarrassed. I get his junk while he is doing some work, i wanna do sex massage, i wanna try sexy clothes he get all embarrassed. At the same time ive caught him researching hot escorts online nearby so he could get the same things i offer him. I think he never got the oportunity of hiring one bc he married crazy (me). But, yeah, i believe its related to the group of avoidant personalities. There are things they seem to feel as if its too personal for the ones close to them, so they go and look for it far (the imaginary "consequences" of asking or doing are "high", while with an idealistic other partner the risks are "low". Like they idealize a perfect person who wont ever judge them. For me it seems its a problem related more with the imagination, then with sex itself).


you need a sex councilor


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## moon7 (May 5, 2013)

plastow said:


> you need a sex councilor


Not common around here.


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## plastow (Jan 4, 2022)

sokillme said:


> Not sure why this is hard to understand. Let's take good communication, of all the marriages what percentage would you say have good communication? 15%, at best 20%? So why would sex be any different? In my experience to have a good marriage you need two very emotionally sophisticated individuals who have strong character and are motivated to have one, that includes a good sex life. Most people are selfish.
> 
> In this world how many people do you think are like that in society today?
> 
> ...


in retrospect i cant beleive i was so stupid and your description of me at that time is wholly correct.i learned a painful lesson that night and many sleepless nights since.i cant change what i did nor anything else about it but am still trying to rationalise why i did it.stupid maybe excited about something ive never done maybe frustrated with our sex at home maybe.i dont blame her now,just myself and its a lot harder to forgive yourself for doing something so stupid.we never talk about it but i still have sleepless nights at times.


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## gameopoly5 (5 mo ago)

plastow said:


> as she was drunk out of her mind he should have pulled her from the guys clutches and dragged her home.had a long talk with her in the morning and either leave or install boundaries of not drinking so much and staying close to her husband.i undrstand he would be so angry so would i but he left her there to be used by whoever.he did have some responsailty to protect her even from herself as her husband.


My cousin`s wife was being flirty with that guy on a sofa quite a while before getting down to it on the floor, which means she must have already had the hots for him. My cousin later said, his wife had not been flirty with him like that since they were in courtship.
Where my cousin went wrong, in my opinion is that he should have stepped in when his wife was flirting with that guy on the sofa.
When on the floor although drunk his wife was not in a semiconscious drunken state, she reciprocated to the guy`s actions and was well into it.
So how could he have trusted her again after that? What would happen if she got drunk again while out with friends or at a party and her husband wasn`t there?
If this had been me, I couldn`t had lived with her any more after that.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

If you're not into something specific sexually, just because you're married, doesn't mean you're ''required'' to do any and all things. I've read threads on here that seem to suggest that once you're married, your spouse should just be willing to try anything with you, and if they don't, there's something wrong with her/him, or the marriage itself. That's simply not true.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

*Deidre* said:


> If you're not into something specific sexually, just because you're married, doesn't mean you're ''required'' to do any and all things. I've read threads on here that seem to suggest that once you're married, your spouse should just be willing to try anything with you, and if they don't, there's something wrong with her/him, or the marriage itself. That's simply not true.


You are completely right that no one should be forced to do anything, but I feel like you should at least be able to talk about it. Your spouse doesn't have to be willing to try it, but I feel like they should at least be open to listening to it and to keep an open mind.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

TexasMom1216 said:


> You are completely right that no one should be forced to do anything, but I feel like you should at least be able to talk about it. Your spouse doesn't have to be willing to try it, but I feel like they should at least be open to listening to it and to keep an open mind.


Yessss! Totally agree.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

*Deidre* said:


> If you're not into something specific sexually, just because you're married, doesn't mean you're ''required'' to do any and all things. I've read threads on here that seem to suggest that once you're married, your spouse should just be willing to try anything with you, and if they don't, there's something wrong with her/him, or the marriage itself. That's simply not true.


I agree with you 100%. Absolutely. This is how I always treated my situation.

I also agree with TexasMom that there shouldn't be issues to at least speak about things. If the spouses can at least sit down and talk and be honest to each other, that should be good. At least one of the spouses won't feel like something is being hidden from them. 


I don't think this thread is really about that, though. I think it is more about the wife willing to do certain sexual things with other men but not the husband. If that happened to me, that would absolutely destroy me - and I don't have a good explanation as to why other than "I guess I'm not good enough to x,y,z but I guess Johnny is.". That's where I would draw the line. Obviously, I'm not the only man that thinks this. I've seen many an infidelity story where a husband is willing to forgive the cheating wife and work on their marriage up until the point that he learns that she did x,y,z with the affair partner even though the husband wanted those things with her for a very long time. So the husband is left feeling like he gave so much of himself all those years and wanted to do more sexually with her... and all it took was a few winks and nice things said from AP and she immediately does all sexual things with him. I see that pushing a lot of men over the edge and not wanting to reconcile after learning that information. 

I think I've only seen that once or twice when happening in a reverse situation (husband cheating on wife and doing more sexual things with the AP).


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> You are completely right that no one should be forced to do anything, but I feel like you should at least be able to talk about it. Your spouse doesn't have to be willing to try it, but I feel like they should at least be open to listening to it and to keep an open mind.


I found the "yes, no, maybe" list to be quite helpful. One of the few things my exwife and I agreed upon. Getting her to speak was like pulling teeth. This list was a helpful tool to get the conversation started.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I agree with you 100%. Absolutely. This is how I always treated my situation.
> 
> I also agree with TexasMom that there shouldn't be issues to at least speak about things. If the spouses can at least sit down and talk and be honest to each other, that should be good. At least one of the spouses won't feel like something is being hidden from them.
> 
> ...


Ohhh, okay. I was actually thinking that because I’ve read threads on here where usually husbands are venting that their wives did all kinds of things with other men before them, but they won’t with their husbands. Hard to say why that is. I’ve always been a little prudish but definitely more “free” with my husband, so this topic isn’t an issue for us. lol


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

*Deidre* said:


> Ohhh, okay. I was actually thinking that because I’ve read threads on here where usually husbands are venting that their wives did all kinds of things with other men before them, but they won’t with their husbands. Hard to say why that is. I’ve always been a little prudish but definitely more “free” with my husband, so this topic isn’t an issue for us. lol


Ok, that is another topic that does come up from time to time. 

I can't say I have a definitive answer for that specific issue - and to be honest, any misgivings I have about it are my problem and not due to the woman. 

I am unsure what I would do exactly in that particular situation (start dating/marrying a woman that has done many sexual things in her past that she refuses to do going forward). 

I am still slightly jaded coming out of my divorce. My exwife gaslit me a lot and had/has a lot of problems with speaking openly and honestly. If I started to date a new woman and there were things she did in her past that she won't do with me, I'm not sure if I want to know that information or not. On the one hand, I prefer everything to be out in the open. Problem is, I would have difficulty believing her that she is telling me the truth due to my experience. It would be difficult for me to come to terms that the woman I'm with would be willing to do things with others but not with me - even if she has very good reasons not to. Like I said, that's a "me" problem, not a "her" problem. That is something I personally need to get over. So, I think for me (at this point in time) I'd probably be better off with not knowing what had happened in her past.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

*Deidre* said:


> Ohhh, okay. I was actually thinking that because I’ve read threads on here where usually husbands are* venting that their wives did all kinds of things with other men before them, but they won’t with their husbands*. Hard to say why that is. I’ve always been a little prudish but definitely more “free” with my husband, so this topic isn’t an issue for us. lol


How do they know that? I guess they're asking them about doing things and they're answering they did it before and didn't like it? I'm not snarking, I'm honestly asking. I have never detailed my prior sexual activities with my husband. (there's nothing exciting to tell, but still) I don't get that, if they have done it before they're obviously not completely turned off by it, and unless it was painful or really upset them, why not try it again? There's a lot I don't understand about women who don't want sex with their husband, though, it's probably just more of that.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

I guess I'm lucky with this one.

I knew well before we were married what my wife had no interest in sexually, because I asked. Over the years our repertoire of sexual activities has expanded, even into some of those things she had no interest in and/or never tried before. Most of that occurred without even talking about it, in part because my wife seemed almost embarrassed to talk about it. Like it was naughty, which I guess it kind of is, lol. We were both very comfortable with each other in bed though and something new might just happen in the moment. In more recent years we've talked about sex more and I think we have even greater comfort and security in knowing we can be open with each other. That has resulted in trying new stuff. Sometimes they work out, other times we decide not to do it again. Because of all that I feel confident in saying I am getting the whole and real person my wife is. I also feel that our sex life is at it peek, so far, even after 30+ years.

To answer the OP, "why is it so hard to let the person they are with know about what ever their kink is or even fully let go?", I think it is at least in part due to embarrassment and being self conscious. Along with fear of being rejected, or worse, looked at like you are a freak of some sort. Most people are concerned about what their spouse thinks of them and they don't want to do something that will tarnish them


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## gameopoly5 (5 mo ago)

This is a most interesting thread yet on any forum regarding this subject.
So glad to be a part of this.
It`s good to know there there are others in similar situations.
I`d like to give another example and promise these are my true stories, I am not a troll.
I am an English guy living in Thailand with my Thai wife, love it here, but I am still in contact with old friends who are in the UK.
One of my friends, we`ll call him Pete, is a 58 year old short plump balding guy. He is married and he too tells me that his wife is frigid in the bedroom department.
Last year his company sent him to Abbeville in France for 10 days on an IT work project.
While there he checked out a website advertising girls for sexual services. They are called sideline girls, mostly students selling sexual services to pay for their tuition.
So he ordered one. In the evening a most beautiful 19 year old turned up at his hotel room, he couldn`t believe his luck and thought he died and gone to heaven.
He had 3 hours with that girl and cost 200 euros. 
Pete told me that girl done more with him than his wife had for the last 21 years of their 25 year marriage. So good in-fact that he hired her 2 more times during his stay there.
But sad that guys have to find sexual relief elsewhere because their wives won`t be intimate with them anymore.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

gameopoly5 said:


> This is a most interesting thread yet on any forum regarding this subject.
> So glad to be a part of this.
> It`s good to know there there are others in similar situations.
> I`d like to give another example and promise these are my true stories, I am not a troll.
> ...


They shouldn't be married anymore. If they are so dissatisfied with their sex life that they have to hire a sex worker behind their wife's back they are just living with a roommate.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

TexasMom1216 said:


> How do they know that? I guess they're asking them about doing things and they're answering they did it before and didn't like it? I'm not snarking, I'm honestly asking. I have never detailed my prior sexual activities with my husband. (there's nothing exciting to tell, but still) I don't get that, if they have done it before they're obviously not completely turned off by it, and unless it was painful or really upset them, why not try it again? There's a lot I don't understand about women who don't want sex with their husband, though, it's probably just more of that.


I wonder this, too. Are husbands asking and expecting their wives to share every sordid detail from their past sexual experiences? My observation with those stories, many people are insecure and jealous, and must know how they ''rank'' with every past sexual partner their spouse has. To me, this serves no positive purpose. 🤷‍♀️


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

*Deidre* said:


> I wonder this, too. Are husbands asking and expecting their wives to share every sordid detail from their past sexual experiences? My observation with those stories, many people are insecure and jealous, and must know how they ''rank'' with every past sexual partner their spouse has. To me, this serves no positive purpose. 🤷‍♀️


Say a husband wants to try anal, and his wife doesn't want to. She may say "no, I don't like it", which gives the information away quite easily. Or if she flat out says "no", he may ask if she's ever tried it.

That's just having a conversation, not necessarily prying for every sordid detail of their wife's sexual history.

Personally, I don't care what my wife did with anyone who came _before _me (affairs were a different story). I know some of the details because they have come up in conversation, but I don't know everything (or if there is even more to know).


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

bobert said:


> Say a husband wants to try anal, and his wife doesn't want to. She may say "no, I don't like it", which gives the information away quite easily. Or if she flat out says "no", he may ask if she's ever tried it.
> 
> That's just having a conversation, not necessarily prying for every sordid detail of their wife's sexual history.
> 
> Personally, I don't care what my wife did with anyone who came _before _me (affairs were a different story). I know some of the details because they have come up in conversation, but I don't know everything (or if there is even more to know).


That makes sense, but what comes after that question is usually the problem. I understand asking openly with your spouse, all kinds of questions, around sex and otherwise. But, it seems in many threads on here, the husband will ask the wife if she's done ''x'' and she says ''yes, with a guy in college,'' and he feels offended that she won't with him. She loves him, is a great wife, etc...but this one thing, he can't let go of. And I just think people needlessly ruin their marriages over these things, just my opinion. 

I also wonder if it comes up during dating - when you're trying to get to know someone new. Those conversations may flow much freer because you're not married, and then it comes back to haunt those couples, because they over-shared, and now the husband or wife feels let down that they're not experiencing things that their spouse did with others. So yea...I understand why people may go through these feelings, and the reasons vary.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

*Deidre* said:


> I wonder this, too. Are husbands asking and expecting their wives to share every sordid detail from their past sexual experiences? My observation with those stories, many people are insecure and jealous, and must know how they ''rank'' with every past sexual partner their spouse has. To me, this serves no positive purpose. 🤷‍♀️


I would certainly not ask these questions. I've seen his ex-girlfriends and his friends have told me stories I didn't want to hear. I'm insecure enough, that seems like inviting trouble to me. But hey, everyone is different I suppose.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Delete


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## Loves Coffee (4 mo ago)

gameopoly5 said:


> This is a most interesting thread yet on any forum regarding this subject.
> So glad to be a part of this.
> It`s good to know there there are others in similar situations.
> I`d like to give another example and promise these are my true stories, I am not a troll.
> ...


Sounds like he had a great stay, then.


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## Loves Coffee (4 mo ago)

gameopoly5 said:


> Your post has kind of confirmed something to me and also relates to the OP`s post.
> I am forming an opinion that when wives begin limiting their husbands in the bedroom department it could mean either three things.
> 1. She is suffering from depressing.
> 2. The wife has an health issue, could be both mental or physical.
> ...


One has to make a decision that if their wife acted the way they currently do in the bedroom for the rest of their lives, would they say they were happy about their lives 10-20 years later or just lived in misery. Now apply that perspective to your current conversations with your wife when talking about sex. Don't be rude or mean, just decide and plainly state what your preferences are. One side has to be willing to walk in a good negotiation.

My wife of 8 years now doesn't fit everything I would wish for, but I was willing to compromise since she is willing to have sex every day and have a good attitude about it. 

I'm willing to bet your friend who visited France learned a very valuable lesson during his stay. For his sake I wish he had learned it sooner.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I don't think this thread is really about that, though. I think it is more about the wife willing to do certain sexual things with other men but not the husband


SORRY you are very wrong and I said in the first post that i did not want this to be turned into a swinging topic "(This is not a swinging topic so please don't try twist it into one ) "


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

frenchpaddy said:


> SORRY you are very wrong and I said in the first post that i did not want this to be turned into a swinging topic "(This is not a swinging topic so please don't try twist it into one ) "


He's not talking about swinging. Other men as in she does something with a prior lover, AP or next lover that she won't do with her husband.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

I think every couple is different , in the same way if you talk to your brother in law about something and your wife his sister talks to him you can both walk away with two very different results on the same thing ,

every action sparks a reaction 
but there seems to be many different type of couples some we have seen people talk about on other topics , one that is big into sex right up to the wedding day and for some reason drops off once the ring is on and we see both sexes say the same thing about their partner, I PUT THIS type relationship down to a fake relationship and one that does not come into this topic , 



BigDaddyNY said:


> He's not talking about swinging. Other men as in she does something with a prior lover, AP or next lover that she won't do with her husband.


if that is the case I picked him up wrong trying to read all the posts ,
so if this is what he is saying It is along the lines of what I AM SAYING EVERY TWO PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT reactions to each other , now some people seem to get hung up on what their partner did before ,


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

frenchpaddy said:


> SORRY you are very wrong and I said in the first post that i did not want this to be turned into a swinging topic "(This is not a swinging topic so please don't try twist it into one ) "


At no point in my post did I mention swinging. I didn't consider that option. I had one post that considered the instance of infidelity where a wife does more sexually with an AP and my other post dealt with looking into the past of your partner and wondering why the partner used to do more sexually with someone previous to you.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

frenchpaddy said:


> I read a post by one of the members here about a swinging couple (This is not a swinging topic so please don't try twist it into one )
> his post went along the lines of that a husband talked his wife into sleeping with his friend and when he saw her so liberated and with out any inhibitions he had second thoughts about their relationship ,
> It IS NOT the first time I have come across this type story of women that when they are cheating or swinging or even sex friends ARE A LOT MORE able to relax and do things they would not do with their long term partner,
> 
> ...


Very interesting topic. I have not read through all the responses yet.

I don’t have much time at the moment so will make a few quick points then come back later.

First off I do not think intentional “entrapment” is much of a factor at all. I do not think any nefarious factors are at play but rather some somewhat misunderstood natural forces at work. 

Women’s sexuality especially is not status and constant. It is highly influenced by different partners, different environments and situations, different relationship status and cyclical hormonal levels. 

Men are influenced by these things too but probably not to the degree women are. 

For starters, the impact of NRE cannot be downplayed. Somebody’s response to a new person is going to be very different than to their steady party of 20 years. NRE is a very powerful force.

Many years of strict monogamy is a powerful force as well but in the opposite direction unfortunately (more on that later)

And the influence of context, environment and situation are also powerful forces. Again, especially for women and to a lesser degree for men.

Environments like swinging, ONSs, FWBs and infidelity are sexually based scenarios where no assumption of marriage, children, hearth and home are present. In those scenarios women are often highly sexual and uninhabited because the are ALLOWED to be the naughty girl. 

Not only are they allowed and embraced to be the naughty girl, but they are not auditioning for marriage nor presenting themselves as wife and mother material. As such is no pretense or presumption of them being the dutiful wife and mother and there for no pressure to be the “good” girl or pressure to be the virtuous person that controls and suppresses her sexuality. 

The beast comes out in those scenarios because it can and because it is fed.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

gameopoly5 said:


> This is a most interesting thread yet on any forum regarding this subject.
> So glad to be a part of this.
> It`s good to know there there are others in similar situations.
> I`d like to give another example and promise these are my true stories, I am not a troll.
> ...


This story demonstrates absolutely nothing, except that people will do anything for money. There is NO deeper meaning to anything that happened between "Pete" and his escort.

What anyone reading this should keep in mind is that once this 19yr old is done with college and doesn't need the money, she most likely will not want to keep having that kind of sex with anyone...even a man she loves. In fact, the memory of doing those sex acts with men who didn't love her and who she was certainly not turned on for, might make her grossed out to ever do those things again, and when she's in her 40s+ she might very well turn into "Pete's" frigid wife.

And while ol' Pete thought he had died and gone to heaven when he opened the door, that 19yr old beauty probably felt repulsed and nauseous when the door opened and she saw HIM.

Everything that he enjoyed about being with her was completely FAKE. So based on what men on here constantly complain about sexually with their wives, he didn't even get anything from her that men actually say they want (authentic sexual interest and excitement). He got a beautiful girl who was a good actor.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Loves Coffee said:


> One has to make a decision that if their wife acted the way they currently do in the bedroom for the rest of their lives, would they say they were happy about their lives 10-20 years later or just lived in misery. Now apply that perspective to your current conversations with your wife when talking about sex. Don't be rude or mean, just decide and plainly state what your preferences are. One side has to be willing to walk in a good negotiation.
> 
> My wife of 8 years now doesn't fit everything I would wish for, but I was willing to compromise since she is willing to have sex every day and have a good attitude about it.
> 
> I'm willing to bet your friend who visited France learned a very valuable lesson during his stay. For his sake I wish he had learned it sooner.


What lesson do you think his friend learned?


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Environments like swinging, ONSs, FWBs and infidelity are sexually based scenarios where no assumption of marriage, children, hearth and home are present. In those scenarios women are often highly sexual and uninhabited because the are ALLOWED to be the naughty girl.
> 
> Not only are they allowed and embraced to be the naughty girl, but they are not auditioning for marriage nor presenting themselves as wife and mother material. As such is no pretense or presumption of them being the dutiful wife and mother and there for no pressure to be the “good” girl or pressure to be the virtuous person that controls and suppresses her sexuality.
> 
> The beast comes out in those scenarios because it can and because it is fed.


I agree with everything you've said here.

This seems to be what is happening to women in these scenarios. My problem is the logic being used here (not your logic). For the women that do in fact do this, it is their logic that I find to be faulty. 

Assumptions of marriage, children hearth and home shouldn't mean anything. What man cares about this during his time in the bedroom?

"allowed and embraced" to be the naughty girl. What man doesn't want his wife to be the naughty girl in the bedroom? Every man I know on this planet would "allow and embrace" the naughty girl from their wife. 

"auditioning for marriage" - Your audition will go a lot better the more freaky you are in bed. Why would a man want a woman that is so reserved in bed for his wife?

"wife and mother material" - Every man I know can compartmentalize the difference between wife and mother. The virtuous, wonderful mother in front of the children. great. I'm all for it. Once the kids are in bed? Time for the naughty girl wife to come out. 

"pressure to be the good virtuous girl that controls and suppresses her sexuality." - I believe all this pressure is internal. None of it is coming from the husband. If anything, the pressure is in the opposite direction. Again, I do not know one man that would pressure his wife to suppress her sexuality in the bedroom. Not one. 


Again, I don't disagree with you that these are the reasons being said. Maybe they are believed by the portion of women that do follow along with this. I always felt like there is something more here. Maybe some sort of shame? Somehow believing that the husband would look down upon her (even though the husband is always asking for more freaky stuff)? I know my exwife couldn't stand it if I called her a "bad/naughty" girl in bed. She would immediately snap back and say she is a good girl - even when we were doing things outside of the realm of the typical vanilla sex. It was weird - but she is unwell and has serious mental hang ups. 

I find this logic to be extremely odd. Why save the freaky stuff for ONS, infidelity and FWB when it is the husband that will (more than likely) be the one putting in the effort into the wife while these others will not?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

frenchpaddy said:


> I read a post by one of the members here about a swinging couple (This is not a swinging topic so please don't try twist it into one )
> his post went along the lines of that a husband talked his wife into sleeping with his friend and when he saw her so liberated and with out any inhibitions he had second thoughts about their relationship ,
> It IS NOT the first time I have come across this type story of women that when they are cheating or swinging or even sex friends ARE A LOT MORE able to relax and do things they would not do with their long term partner,


Also we need to keep in mind that people select different sex partners for different purposes and scenarios. 

A man that a woman brings home to the family and integrates into her public social circle and marries and raises children will be chosen on his ability to support and provide and his ability to get along with family and be a good father etc etc and it’s a bonus if he is good looking and can give her orgasms. 

A man she goes home from the bar with or has some kind of swinging encounter with or has a physical affair with, is almost purely on her own sexual attraction to him and how hot and sexy she finds him. 

When you combine the fact she’s getting with him out of almost pure sexual chemistry with the fact she does not feel the pressure to be a virtuous and wholesome wife and mother, then you have the perfect recipe for doing a lot of hot and passionate things that she’s probably not doing with her husband and father of her children for the past 20 years.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> * he didn't even get anything from her that men actually say they want (authentic sexual interest and excitement).* He got a beautiful girl who was a good actor.


Very key factor here. Authentic sexual interest and excitement can easily change my mind away from ever wanting or needing freaky sex. If I was with a woman that felt this way towards me, I wouldn't ever complain about wanting anything outside of vanilla. Any freaky sex added on would just be a cherry on top.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

what do you all think are people influenced by movies, media, even social media where some claim to have a habit of telling only the glossed up side of the story , and Porn , in what they think they need to be open to, to enjoy a sex life ?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I agree with everything you've said here.
> 
> This seems to be what is happening to women in these scenarios. My problem is the logic being used here (not your logic). For the women that do in fact do this, it is their logic that I find to be faulty.
> 
> ...


Aww yes, the great Madonna/***** Complex. 

There really is no mystery here now is there? 

It’s in the messaging women have received since birth - be the “Good Girl.” Control your urges and don’t be the $lut. Men won’t want you if you sleep around or look, act or talk too sexy. Don’t go for the Chad/Jock/stud/player, pick the nice guy that will be a good, faithful, stable provider and good father. 

Suppress and control and temper your sexuality until your wedding night with this nice boy who chose you BECAUSE you controlled and suppressed your sexuality, but on your wedding night, then you can get your freak on.

Yeah, that works out real well in real world practice doesn’t it. 

And we men are just as much too blame.

Half the threads by men who chose the church virgins to marry and now 10 years and 3 kids later she won’t touch him.

The other half are by men terrified that she liked her college BF’s dong better or that she looked at some guy in the gym and he’s afraid her sexuality is going to run amok.

We’ve all created a race of sexual schizophrenics.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Aww yes, the great Madonna/*** Complex.
> 
> There really is no mystery here now is there?
> 
> ...


the sexual straight jacket has been dictated to both men and women in different ways , as you said above women were told men only want them for one thing , but the boys were told there was two types of women and was told it was ok to use one and make the other his wife after he sowed his wild oats ,

religion has had a hand in the rules even in the parts of the world that today don't have a religious strong hand


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> Everything that he enjoyed about being with her was completely FAKE. So based on what men on here constantly complain about sexually with their wives, he didn't even get anything from her that men actually say they want (authentic sexual interest and excitement). He got a beautiful girl who was a good actor.


Your point is accurate and valid.

However for a lot of men, their wife isn’t even putting in the time or effort to act or fake it. 

For many it is an outright rejection and denial. 

And for many others, their partners may periodically consent to allowing them access to keep from getting divorced, but they wear their disdain and disgust on their sleeve and make no bones about the fact they’d rather be watching Dancing With The Stars.

The professional is providing a paid service in a service industry where customer service and repeat business matters. The professional only feels entitled to the agreed upon price for that service and doesn’t feel entitled to paid for a service she now refuses to provide or now overtly shows her disdain for. 

While I have never utilized the services of a professional and I do not condone the abuse and maltreatment that providers can encounter - This customer was satisfied to the point he continued to contract with her and she was also satisfied that her efforts and service were being adequately compensated, so I’d say they were a good match for each other.

He was getting better than he was getting at home and she was getting better than waiting tables and running a cash register.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Aww yes, the great Madonna/*** Complex.
> 
> There really is no mystery here now is there?
> 
> ...


Guess I've been out of the loop. Didn't know that was happening. What a waste. All the messaging I see girls getting these days is the feminism stuff and they certainly don't express what you are talking about. 

I guess I always looked at this from a logical point of view. Church virgin or not, once the choice of monogamy has been made by both people involved, I would expect both people to put in max effort into the other. I would expect loyalty as well by both people. 

Moving forward, I don't much care what the woman did prior to me. Any woman I meet now will have lived her life. I just don't want crazy crap coming back up at a later date (getting some random dvd in my mailbox that shows the woman I'm with getting railroaded by 10 guys on video). Other than that, her past is her past. If her previous BF dongs are bigger than mine, I don't care. Mine works and works very well. As long as she is into it, I'm into it. 

Enthusiasm and loyalty. Sounds so simple. Apparently I'm the crazy one here.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> Your point is accurate and valid.
> 
> However for a lot of men, their wife isn’t even putting in the time or effort to act or fake it.
> 
> ...


I agree with you for most interactions between sex workers and their clients. That's why I have NO moral objection to sex work, or most things that two consenting adults choose to do.

However, what I was commenting on was what the poster seemed to be saying about this particular incident with his friend "Pete"....that this experience was some kind of sexual/spiritual awakening for him and that he finally found out how wonderful it was to be with a willing woman who desired all the sex acts that he wanted to do.

And that is simply NOT the dynamic that was going on in reality between them.

"Pete" basically only was allowed to experiment on a living sex doll, and most likely she endured everything they did together for the money, and felt NO true, actual arousal or enjoyment for Pete at all. Everything he experienced with her that the poster wrote about was her simply PRETENDING and putting on an act so she could charge what she wanted for her effort.

Now if that's ok with him, and with anyone who wants to pay for sex, GREAT!!! But don't describe it as something that it very clearly IS NOT.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

frenchpaddy said:


> the sexual straight jacket has been dictated to both men and women in different ways , as you said above women were told men only want them for one thing , but the boys were told there was two types of women and was told it was ok to use one and make the other his wife after he sowed his wild oats ,


I think women divide men into spouse camps and fun camps just as much if not more than guys. 

But since they were always more highly criticized and penalized for having their fun and sowing their wild oats, they often sacrificed their sexual desire and satisfaction on the alter of hearth and home and in keeping their family, church and community happy. 

[QUOTE="LATERILUS79, post: 20622569, member: 348930]

All the messaging I see girls getting these days is the feminism stuff and they certainly don't express what you are talking about. 

[/QUOTE]

That is backlash to the above.

Now we have effective contraception, antibiotics and anti virals, and women now have equal opportunity in education and employment so they don’t have to be dependent on someone else’s income and can have sex with who they want instead of who they need.

In previous generations, men could get by with having a good job and being at least somewhat stable and responsible.

Women will still want that in a long term mate, but men that want to have a sexual relationship going forward will need to be appealing to the eye and sexy as well.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> What lesson do you think his friend learned?


Id say he learned it was worth renting more than once ….. apparently.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> I agree with you for most interactions between sex workers and their clients. That's why I have NO moral objection to sex work, or most things that two consenting adults choose to do.
> 
> However, what I was commenting on was what the poster seemed to be saying about this particular incident with his friend "Pete"....that this experience was some kind of sexual/spiritual awakening for him and that he finally found out how wonderful it was to be with a willing woman who desired all the sex acts that he wanted to do.
> 
> ...


I am sure that ‘Pete’s first choice would be a woman with genuine burning desire and that he has no illusions that the 19 year old working girl has the genuine hots for him. 

I would also imagine he probably does not intend nor wish for a steady diet of sex workers forever. 

But in that moment, from Pete’s perspective, fake desire and intimacy was better than real disinterest and disdain that he gets from his wife.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> I am sure that ‘Pete’s first choice would be a woman with genuine burning desire and that he has no illusions that the 19 year old working has the genuine hots for him.
> 
> I would also imagine he probably does not intend nor wish for a steady diet of sex workers forever.
> 
> But in that moment, from Pete’s perspective, fake desire and intimacy was better than real disinterest and disdain.


If you are right about that, then like I said, that's great for him and whomever else wants that! 
But that wasn't what was implied in the post that I quoted, so I wanted to correct that, just in case.


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## Loves Coffee (4 mo ago)

LisaDiane said:


> What lesson do you think his friend learned?


Don't settle for a frigid wife for 25 years. He sounded pretty amazed. I don't really care what the dynamic between the two was. I bet he left there with eyes opened.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Because women don’t always marry the men they are driven to be sexually free with.
And men generally don’t hire hookers to be sexually free, they just want to get sex in the most expedient manner possible.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Loves Coffee said:


> Don't settle for a frigid wife for 25 years. He sounded pretty amazed. I don't really care what the dynamic between the two was. I bet he left there with eyes opened.


Did he go back to his wife after and continue settling for her frigidity? Or did he happily continue paying women to fake sexual enjoyment with him? Because a man has to put more effort into a woman that he doesn't give $100/hour to. Is that what his eyes were opened to?

Because if his eyes really were opened as you say, don't you mean that he knew the 19yr old was faking with him and that's what he wanted?

I'm not being snarky or sarcastic, I'm really curious.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> $100/hour to.


If she’s that hot she probably operates on an exponential decreasing pay scale. $95 for the first 5 min and $5 for the remaining 55. She always leaves with $95. For the teenagers she’s probably already back out the door within the 5 🤣


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> Did he go back to his wife after and continue settling for her frigidity? Or did he happily continue paying women to fake sexual enjoyment with him? Because a man has to put more effort into a woman that he doesn't give $100/hour to. Is that what his eyes were opened to?
> 
> Because if his eyes really were opened as you say, don't you mean that he knew the 19yr old was faking with him and that's what he wanted?
> 
> I'm not being snarky or sarcastic, I'm really curious.


I went back and reread the post about ‘Pete.’

What I came away with was he had a great time and and called her up a couple more times during his trip and that did a number of things his wife had not done with him in many years. 

I did not see anything about any sexual or spiritual awakenings or that he had undergone any kind of sexual transformations or cosmic events or life altering experience.

What I came away with was a sad and lonely and frustrated middle aged married guy with a dead bedroom at home had a fun and positive experience with a young and attractive sex worker. No more, no less. 

Remember, men are simple. 

He had a fun sexy time with a young beautiful lady doing things with him that his uninterested and rejecting wife had not done in decades. 

Nothing was said about his life being altered (unless he got herpes LOL 😆). 

He probably went home to same ol’ same ol’ and has a smile on his face when he replays the memory tapes as he’s laying in the dark alone with his own thoughts at night.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

We also need to keep in mind that sex work in different in Europe than in the US.

Our image of prostitution in the US is the impoverished, drug addicted street walker in hip boots being ruled by a pimp in a pink Cadillac and a feather in his hat that blows gross and disgusting men out of desperation for their next fix. 

While I’ve never been to Europe nor obtained the services of prostitute in any country, it is a whole different different mentality and different place in society in France than the US.

Does that mean the 19 year hottie had the actual hots for the poor old fella? No, but it likely was a much more egalitarian and mutually consensual experience than a crack addict that would either get her next fix or get a beat down depending on how much money she brings back to the crib like in the US.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

Women are pretty simple too. It just takes a few nice words, dirty ones even to get us warmed up. And at its simplest, a husband who is happy to see you when he walks through the door, even if he needs to chill for an hour on the couch afterwards, is enough to make some of us want to feel that liberation you speak of. 

Just a little glint in his eye, some excitement when he speaks to you throughout the day, so that you FEEL like he thinks you’re the ***** he wants to sleep with. You just have to know how to look at her, and most husbands can’t do that properly. And learn to talk to her. A stranger at a supermarket could talk the talk and give a certain look and she’d at least be thinking of it, even if she’s the most faithful wife.

Women don’t like to be ignored all day, and we know men are busy and can sympathise. But a bland blank face, some yelling and criticism - nobody wants to have sex with that when it’s a tap on the shoulder from your husband who hasn’t even smiled at you or said anything remotely saucy. Make us feel dirty, and you’d be shocked what can happen at home.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> Or did he happily continue paying women to fake sexual enjoyment with him?


I think we've busted the whole "I have sex with my wife for intimacy, it's how I feel close to her" claim.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I think we've busted the whole "I have sex with my wife for intimacy, it's how I feel close to her" claim.


I don’t see how. Intimacy is actually a big part of it. Obviously it’s not all of it, i’m not sure anyone ever claimed that it was “just about intimacy.” 
I have sex with my wife because it’s a critical part of relationship / marital intimacy and closeness, AND because I like sex and want to enjoy lustful carnal pleasure with her.
Both are valid and relevant in a marriage.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I think we've busted the whole "I have sex with my wife for intimacy, it's how I feel close to her" claim.


You mean how they say they pay someone for it to be able to go home afterwards? meaning minimal effort, I’ll just have the sex without making the women feel a little human in between sessions (how some women might experience it at home)?

Yes that was sad to hear, but good to know. Which may make me sympathise with the wife who is rejecting him, if that’s why they use sex workers. And I don’t tend to sympathise with women who aren’t having sex with their husbands. But it certainly has opened my eyes a little.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I think we've busted the whole "I have sex with my wife for intimacy, it's how I feel close to her" claim.





Luckylucky said:


> You mean how they say they pay someone for it to be able to go home afterwards? meaning minimal effort, I’ll just have the sex without making the women feel a little human in between sessions (how some women might experience it at home)?
> 
> Yes that was sad to hear, but good to know. Which may make me sympathise with the wife who is rejecting him, if that’s why they use sex workers. And I don’t tend to sympathise with women who aren’t having sex with their husbands. But it certainly has opened my eyes a little.


Let’s keep in mind that ‘Pete’ has been in a sexless or near sexless marriage for many years. 

If a person is starving in a life raft for weeks and weeks and they find a ten year old can of Spam floating in the ocean, just because that was the best meal they’ve had in weeks, that doesn’t mean that they still wouldn’t prefer filet mignon and much prefer to have a proper steady diet at home. 

You have to take his baseline and original point of origin into consideration. 

A starving person will eat brussel sprouts if put in front of them, but they won’t consider it an adequate replacement for 3-squares a day.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Luckylucky said:


> You mean how they say they pay someone for it to be able to go home afterwards? meaning minimal effort, I’ll just have the sex without making the women feel a little human in between sessions (how some women might experience it at home)?
> 
> Yes that was sad to hear, but good to know. Which may make me sympathise with the wife who is rejecting him, if that’s why they use sex workers. And I don’t tend to sympathise with women who aren’t having sex with their husbands. But it certainly has opened my eyes a little.


Well and it’s not as though she could have ever compared to that 19 year old, so one could hardly recommend her trying now (or any time after she was 19). He wouldn’t want her anyway. Based on the enthusiastic endorsements for adultery, this happens a lot.

Also blows a big hole out the back of “It hurts my feelings if my wife pretends.” Um clearly it doesn’t matter, the more theatre the better.

If you want an answer to "why can't we be free with the one we love," you have your answer right there. I don't understand women who don't want sex with their husbands, but I do understand why some women don't do it, want to or not. It's been an eye opener for sure.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> Let’s keep in mind that ‘Pete’ has been in a sexless or near sexless marriage for many years.
> 
> If a person is starving in a life raft for weeks and weeks and they find a ten year old can of Spam floating in the ocean, just because that was the best meal they’ve had in weeks, that doesn’t mean that they still wouldn’t prefer filet mignon and much prefer to have a proper steady diet at home.
> 
> ...


Yes sure, I can accept that and sympathise as well.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

plastow said:


> in retrospect i cant beleive i was so stupid and your description of me at that time is wholly correct.i learned a painful lesson that night and many sleepless nights since.i cant change what i did nor anything else about it but am still trying to rationalise why i did it.stupid maybe excited about something ive never done maybe frustrated with our sex at home maybe.i dont blame her now,just myself and its a lot harder to forgive yourself for doing something so stupid.we never talk about it but i still have sleepless nights at times.


Maybe you should talk about it.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> You are completely right that no one should be forced to do anything, but I feel like you should at least be able to talk about it. Your spouse doesn't have to be willing to try it, but I feel like they should at least be open to listening to it and to keep an open mind.


That talk should happen before you get married so you don't get into something you don't want to deal with.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

*Deidre* said:


> I wonder this, too. Are husbands asking and expecting their wives to share every sordid detail from their past sexual experiences? My observation with those stories, many people are insecure and jealous, and must know how they ''rank'' with every past sexual partner their spouse has. To me, this serves no positive purpose. 🤷‍♀️


It's pathological unless you are certain both of you are just super chill.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> I went back and reread the post about ‘Pete.’
> 
> What I came away with was he had a great time and and called her up a couple more times during his trip and that did a number of things his wife had not done with him in many years.
> 
> ...


Well, that's not how I read it, or maybe I was overlaying the followup comments by @Loves Coffee, about having his eyes opened and a learning experience, and taking that as something SO special and enlightening (about specifically what I cannot seem to find out). 

Either way, that is what I was commenting on, that "Pete" DID feel like he had a special enlightened experience. If he viewed it transactionally, for what it was, then my comment won't apply.

Also, it makes me wonder....WHY are men then ok with paying women to fake sexual enjoyment, but then feel betrayed when they find out their wives faked enjoyment in sex with them for free?? Why the double standard...?
Is it because they gave them commitment instead of money, and now they cannot take back that commitment as easily? Or is their commitment more valuable to men than money?

As bad as I believe it is that "Pete's" wife is sexually unavailable to her husband, I just don't think it's fair to look down on her because she doesn't behave like the very expensive prostitute. That is comparing apples and oranges -- they aren't even remotely the same thing.

His wife is willing to be with him without an hourly payment...the prostitute would likely not even acknowledge him in real life. He got his money's worth in a business transaction with her...that's all.

And you glossed over the other important point I was originally making -- it's very likely that the repulsive memories of engaging in sex acts with men like "Pete" will eventually turn HER into a frigid 40-50something too, just like many older women in monogamous relationships. And if her partner at the time knows about her past, he will wonder why HE got stuck with the sexual dud, and all the "johns" got the sexual dynamo.



oldshirt said:


> We also need to keep in mind that sex work in different in Europe than in the US.
> 
> Our image of prostitution in the US is the impoverished, drug addicted street walker in hip boots being ruled by a pimp in a pink Cadillac and a feather in his hat that blows gross and disgusting men out of desperation for their next fix.
> 
> ...


This has nothing to do with my point actually, I wasn't conjuring any image of a crack-addicted street walker when I made my comment. And I clearly said several times that I have NO moral objection to sex work at all, as long as it's consensual both ways. I have NO bad feelings about what Pete did, I don't care. That's not the frame of thought that my comment is coming from.

But saying that a 19yr old might have enjoyed, in ANY WAY, seeing and touching a chubby naked man she didn't know who was 40 YEARS OLDER than she was is simply pure fantasy on any man's part who is imagining. It absolutely DID NOT HAPPEN. She was a skilled actress for the highest bidder, THAT'S ALL.
She didn't feel anything with him but a need to detach from the entire experience because it was so unpleasant...and she wanted the money.

I can almost guarantee what I said in my original post about this -- at the same moment he opened the door and thought his dreams came true because she was so beautiful, SHE was trying not to gag openly when she saw HIM.
HER "dreams" were about his money, and I'm sure she was focusing on that to distract herself from having to do sexual things with someone who she had NO attraction for at all.


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## Loves Coffee (4 mo ago)

@LisaDiane I was reading into the story of Pete with his eye opening experience just like you are with everything being fake about her. We don't know what went on in the bedroom, but I think it's very plausible as a guy coming from a dead bedroom having an eye opening experience with a young hot chick. Doesn't matter if she is faking it or not at that point as long as she's not being a put off.

As far as guys not liking when their wives are faking enjoyment, this is a different subject. A sex starved guy having a great experience that he went back multiple times for is not the same as being married. I'm sure if he married that 19 year old prostitute that eventually the issue would come up. It's not a double standard.

As far as what she was feeling and what she might become later in life... who cares? She came back multiple times for repeats, so apparently it wasn't THAT repulsive. Why are you so worked up about how the prostitute feels?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Loves Coffee said:


> As far as what she was feeling and what she might become later in life... who cares? She came back multiple times for repeats, so apparently it wasn't THAT repulsive. Why are you so worked up about how the prostitute feels? Anything to share?


Worked up? You aren't reading my tone correctly if you think that. 
Are you being snarky to me by asking if I have anything to share? Because I don't like that.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

She came back because she was paid to come back. There’s no enjoyment in it for her.

Which I think is really what men want.

Of course it could be that some guys think the stripper is really into them.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I think we've busted the whole "I have sex with my wife for intimacy, it's how I feel close to her" claim.


Uncalled for and untrue. 

Ridiculous generalization.


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## Loves Coffee (4 mo ago)

LisaDiane said:


> Worked up? You aren't reading my tone correctly if you think that.
> Are you being snarky to me by asking if I have anything to share? Because I don't like that.


I took that part off because I realized you might take it wrong, but looks like you are here posting frequently. The question still stands why you care so much? I didn't think the prostitute's part in the story had any weight whatsoever. The subject was Pete.


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## Loves Coffee (4 mo ago)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I think we've busted the whole "I have sex with my wife for intimacy, it's how I feel close to her" claim.


That's a pretty jaded comment.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Loves Coffee said:


> That's a pretty jaded comment.


And yet still true. If it’s just sex, it’s just sex. As Ben Franklin says, all cats are grey in the dark. It’s different cause I lurve you is a lie. Always has been.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> And yet still true. If it’s just sex, it’s just sex. As Ben Franklin says, all cats are grey in the dark.


No it isn’t. You don’t know men at all.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> No it isn’t. You don’t know men at all.


Nonsense. If it were special, they wouldn’t cheat. When it is special, they don’t cheat. Full stop. All men are NOT the same.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Nonsense. If it were special, they wouldn’t cheat. When it is special, they don’t cheat. Full stop. And rich coming from someone so eager to tell me how I think.


😂😂😂

You’ve been fully converted now. Great job!

Cheaters are going to cheat. Of course it isn’t special to cheaters. 

You made a comment implying all men don’t find sex to be special. You don’t speak for all men. You clearly have no idea.


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## Loves Coffee (4 mo ago)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Nonsense. If it were special, they wouldn’t cheat. When it is special, they don’t cheat. Full stop. All men are NOT the same.


Are you married? Just wondering why you've formed such a men hating outlook.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Loves Coffee said:


> Are you married? Just wondering why you've formed such a men hating outlook.


She’s married.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Loves Coffee said:


> Are you married? Just wondering why you've formed such a men hating outlook.


If I’m against adultery that is man hating? Fascinating that is the conclusion you draw. You are celebrating adultery with a prostitute and if I don’t think that’s wonderful I’m a man hater? Really? That is what you’re saying?

It’s funny that other women don’t care for celebrating adultery and they aren’t man haters.

Is it not woman hating to say that women should accept adultery as the norm?


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## Loves Coffee (4 mo ago)

TexasMom1216 said:


> If I’m against adultery that is man hating? Fascinating that is the conclusion you draw. You are celebrating adultery with a prostitute and if I don’t think that’s wonderful I’m a man hater? Really? That is what you’re saying?


It's your generalization. I could make the same conclusion from the story that because of the prostitute all women care about is money. Saying men don't want intimacy with their wives is pretty inflammatory. What type of person makes a comment like that? You answer.



TexasMom1216 said:


> I think we've busted the whole "I have sex with my wife for intimacy, it's how I feel close to her" claim.


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## Loves Coffee (4 mo ago)

TexasMom1216 said:


> You are celebrating adultery with a prostitute and if I don’t think that’s wonderful I’m a man hater?


Also, I'm not celebrating the adultery. What I'm saying is that he should have left his wife a long time ago and moved on, but now he has this experience after 20 something years.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Loves Coffee said:


> It's your generalization. I could make the same conclusion from the story that because of the prostitute all women care about is money. Saying men don't want intimacy with their wives is pretty inflammatory. What type of person makes a comment like that? You answer.


The argument on the table is that it’s ok for a man to commit adultery and that has no effect on how he feels about his wife. Basically he can have meaningless sex with a prostitute on Tuesday and then on Wednesday have sex with his wife and it’s “intimacy.”

Tell me this: if your wife had sex with a random guy on Tuesday then told you on Wednesday that sex with you was different, would you believe that? Would you accept that somehow you are different?

I will pretend you are interested in a good faith discussion and tell you that every guy who ever cheated on me told me “it’s different with you.” That somehow I’m supposed to buy that somehow I mean more than the other women. I of course, not being a moron, recognized that was nonsense. 

So your stance is that a wife should ignore adultery because somehow she is magically different?


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

TexasMom1216 said:


> And yet still true. If it’s just sex, it’s just sex. As Ben Franklin says, all cats are grey in the dark. It’s different cause I lurve you is a lie. Always has been.


I don’t understand why this is hard for you.

Yes, sex is a lustfull physical desire which may or may not involve a deep emotional connection.
And also…
Yes, sex is both a physical need in a marriage AND ALSO necessary for emotional bonding and connection. It is a critical component of how man emotionally / romantically remain bonded and connected in a marriage / relationship. 

IT IS BOTH. Why is this hard for you to understand?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Loves Coffee said:


> Also, I'm not celebrating the adultery. What I'm saying is that he should have left his wife a long time ago and moved on, but now he has this experience after 20 something years.


If you’re saying that you don’t cheat because after sex with your wife it’s different then I misunderstood you and I apologize. But if you’re sleeping around and claiming that your wife is “special,” that’s nonsense.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DudeInProgress said:


> I don’t understand why this is hard for you.
> 
> Yes, sex is a lustfull physical desire which may or may not involve a deep emotional connection.
> And also…
> ...


So if your wife cheated you’d be fine, because it was just sex?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Nonsense. If it were special, they wouldn’t cheat. When it is special, they don’t cheat. Full stop. All men are NOT the same.


You're right it is special and you ruin it when you cheat. Sex is absolutely part of the strong intimate and emotional connection I have with my wife. She is the only person on this planet that I've shared that with and it will remain that way.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

TexasMom1216 said:


> So if your wife cheated you’d be fine, because it was just sex?


What are you talking about? I don’t understand the connection you’re making/trying to make with any of this.

Of course I wouldn’t tolerate my wife cheating under any circumstance. 
Nor would I expect her to be OK with it if I did.

And if a man does cheat, it might be just for physical, non-emotionally connected sex.
That is very possible, actually likely. 
That doesn’t make it OK, and I’ve never heard any of this forum say it is.

“It was just sex“ is an explanation of the level of emotional involvement present in an infidelity. 
Yes, the implication in that statement is that It’s less egregious than an affair with sex and emotional connection / love, but that doesn’t make it OK. 
And I have never heard anyone say that it does.

I never heard anyone say that an infidelity that was “just sex” was ok. So what is your point?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> You're right it is special and you ruin it when you cheat. Sex is absolutely part of the strong intimate and emotional connection I have with my wife. She is the only person on this planet that I've shared that with and it will remain that way.


Which is all I said. There are men on the thread celebrating the guys adultery, who don’t believe it’s wrong for someone to cheat because it was “just sex.” If it’s just sex, it’s just sex. Telling a women that she is “special” while you're hiring escorts is a lie.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> Well, that's not how I read it, or maybe I was overlaying the followup comments by @Loves Coffee, about having his eyes opened and a learning experience, and taking that as something SO special and enlightening (about specifically what I cannot seem to find out).
> 
> Either way, that is what I was commenting on, that "Pete" DID feel like he had a special enlightened experience. If he viewed it transactionally, for what it was, then my comment won't apply.
> 
> ...


I'm going to have to break this up into bite-sized chunks so I can keep myself focused on topic.

Pete's story is not a firsthand account, it was being told to us by a 3rd party. Then when you add in Loves Coffee's interpretation on it, we are only 2 people away from Kevin Bacon's opinions on the matter LOL  But regardless, what I took away from the account is that he was a lonely, frustrated guy that got a young, pretty call girl for a night and had a great time so called her back a couple more times while he was on his trip. I did not pick up on any kind of enlightenment or existential event out of the deal so I can't comment on that. 

As far as paying sex workers to fake it but having a beef with their wife's faking or disinterest - my guess is because you don't have to divorce and divide half of your property and assets with a prostitute. If a prostitute is no longer providing the level of service you want, you simply don't call her again. 

And i will go back to what I said in an earlier post, 'Pete' probably enjoyed the hookers acting and fake desire more than his wife's overt rejection and disdain. 

I don't see it as a double standard. He hired her for sexual services and she provided that to his satisfaction. He did not hire her for love and companionship and to raise a home and family within a long term, intimate relationship. 

The hooker wanted his money and provided a service for it and she provided it well enough that he called her back and she was ok with the agreed upon price enough that she came back - all was within what they agreed upon. 

Did she feign some desire and interest and it least present a favorable attitude? If she was good at her job, yes. 

With his wife, he KNOWS she doesn't like him and does not desire or want him and she doesn't even try to hide or fake that.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Which is all I said. There are men on the thread celebrating the guys adultery, who don’t believe it’s wrong for someone to cheat because it was “just sex.” If it’s just sex, it’s just sex. Telling a women that she is “special” while you're hiring escorts is a lie.


Who? Who said that adultry is ok if it’s “just sex”?
Maybe I’ve just been skimming and not reading all that closely, but I do not recall ever seeing anyone make that statement.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> His wife is willing to be with him without an hourly payment...the prostitute would likely not even acknowledge him in real life. He got his money's worth in a business transaction with her...that's all.


Without knowing the dynamics or the financials of their marriage, we can't comment on what kind of exchange is taking place between him and his wife. Does she work and have an income? Is he paying all the bills and expenses to essentially have a roommate? Does she have a similar or even greater income and they are basically splitting the bills? But either way it is an essentially roommate type relationship. And one that may be costing him a lot. 

But he wasn't contracting with the prostitute for a roommate or a companion or a golf buddy. He contracted for sex and it was apparently good sex for him and one for which he found to be a fair service for the money being charged. 

So yes, he got his money's worth.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DudeInProgress said:


> I never heard anyone say that an infidelity that was “just sex” was ok. So what is your point?


“Pete” had sex with a prostitute. That is being celebrated as a good thing, and one poster said that hookers understand how women should be. My point is that everyone claiming that he did nothing wrong as has no credibility if they claim sex with their wives has some magical emotional component. If sex is just an empty physical release, that is all it is. Someone cannot cheat on Tuesday then have sex with their spouse on Wednesday and claim the two activities are “different.” They are not. 

A male poster conceded that sex with his wife now has an emotional component, one it may not have had prior to that relationship. Once in that relationship it changes. No one had an issue. Other female posters have expressed that using prostitutes is not ok for married people. I say the same thing and I get this gaslighting routine pretending I’m a mindless man hating man hater who hates men. Your narrative is exhausting. Argue the point if you want. But If you’re name calling straight out of the gate, this is about your perception of me, and does not refute what I have said.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> As far as paying sex workers to fake it but having a beef with their wife's faking or disinterest - my guess is because you don't have to divorce and divide half of your property and assets with a prostitute. If a prostitute is no longer providing the level of service you want, you simply don't call her again.


So the wife is a financial liability, a dependent, the hooker is not, so it’s ok to cheat on your wife with a hooker and she should not take it personally because her husband has her on a contract while the hooker is a freelancer. 

If this is truly how men think, the it is what it is. But it’s insulting to the wife’s intelligence to imply she means more to him than the hooker. She’s contract and the sex with the hooker is not her business.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> And you glossed over the other important point I was originally making -- it's very likely that the repulsive memories of engaging in sex acts with men like "Pete" will eventually turn HER into a frigid 40-50something too, just like many older women in monogamous relationships. And if her partner at the time knows about her past, he will wonder why HE got stuck with the sexual dud, and all the "johns" got the sexual dynamo.


I didn't read the whole wikipedia, but I looked up the legal status of prostitution in France. It is legal for an adult to be a prostitute in France and legal to "sell sex." However it is illegal and punishable by fine to "buy" sex and it is illegal to run a brothel and illegal to pimp. 

So in other words, the prostitutes themselves are legal contractors and presumably have agency over their own contracts. So she was a consenting adult engaging in a legal vocation for her own money. 

We can argue the moral and ethical aspects and the long term effects of a consenting adult voluntarily engaging in a legal vocation. But the bottom line is he is not responsible for her sexual response with a future partner 20+ years from now. 

In a way making that argument is like telling women they should not reject young men because those men may grow up to have insecurities and sexual dysfunctions and not be able to get it up when they're 40.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

TexasMom1216 said:


> “Pete” had sex with a prostitute. That is being celebrated as a good thing, and one poster said that hookers understand how women should be. My point is that everyone claiming that he did nothing wrong as has no credibility if they claim sex with their wives has some magical emotional component. If sex is just an empty physical release, that is all it is. Someone cannot cheat on Tuesday then have sex with their spouse on Wednesday and claim the two activities are “different.” They are not.
> 
> A male poster conceded that sex with his wife now has an emotional component, one it may not have had prior to that relationship. Once in that relationship it changes. No one had an issue. Other female posters have expressed that using prostitutes is not ok for married people. I say the same thing and I get this gaslighting routine pretending I’m a mindless man hating man hater who hates men. Your narrative is exhausting. Argue the point if you want. But I’d you’re name calling straight out of the gate, this is about your perception of me, and does not refute what I have said. A


1. I had (and have) no interest in reading through this lengthy “Pete” example. If the point was that he used prostitutes for emotion-free sex, I don’t care.
If the point was that he used prostitutes for emotion-free sex WHILE MARRIED - that’s wrong.
2. You still seem to be missing the point that sex can be a deep emotional connection, or it can also be just sex.
The fact that sex can be “just sex” sometimes or with some people, does not negate the fact that sex is absolutely part of the deep emotional connection within a marriage.

It’s just a statement about the reality of sex and relationships. I don’t understand why you keep wanting to conflate this with adultery.
Adultery is wrong regardless of whether it’s “just sex” or not. I’ve never suggested otherwise.

3. I didn’t say you were a mindless man hating man hater, I said your conclusions didn’t make any sense.

4. if there were posters celebrating a man cheating on his wife with prostitutes, please tell me who that was, because I’m pretty sure they’d be universally blasted on here. And rightfully so.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> This has nothing to do with my point actually, I wasn't conjuring any image of a crack-addicted street walker when I made my comment. And I clearly said several times that I have NO moral objection to sex work at all, as long as it's consensual both ways. I have NO bad feelings about what Pete did, I don't care. That's not the frame of thought that my comment is coming from.
> 
> But saying that a 19yr old might have enjoyed, in ANY WAY, seeing and touching a chubby naked man she didn't know who was 40 YEARS OLDER than she was is simply pure fantasy on any man's part who is imagining. It absolutely DID NOT HAPPEN. She was a skilled actress for the highest bidder, THAT'S ALL.
> She didn't feel anything with him but a need to detach from the entire experience because it was so unpleasant...and she wanted the money.


I DO believe it has relevance. It's a completely different model that what we think of as prostitution in America. It is a legal personal service by consenting professional independent contractors. She theoretically at least, was not desperately supporting a drug addiction. She was not under threat or coersion of a pimp. She could have opened the door, took one look at him and said no and walked away. 

Neither I nor anyone else said anything about her "enjoying" it or being hot for him or getting off on it. 

I said she had more agency and that it would have been a more egalitarian and mutually consensual experience than what we think of here with the US model of prostitution. 

If she was that repulsed by him and did not want to touch his winkie, all she would have had to have done is say thanks but no thanks and perhaps made a referral to another provider.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Loves Coffee said:


> I took that part off because I realized you might take it wrong, but looks like you are here posting frequently. The question still stands why you care so much? I didn't think the prostitute's part in the story had any weight whatsoever. The subject was Pete.


I see that. I'm not sure how to take that in any right way, but I appreciate you changing it because I won't have any discussion with someone who wants to talk to me like that.

I was not worked up when I posted any of the times on this thread...AT ALL. I was merely curious and intrigued by the ideas and thoughts I asked about, and interested in what everything meant. NONE of anything I wrote should be taken as me having some personal objections or feelings about what happened with the sex worker, because I don't at all. It was the interpretations that were being made by men ON HERE that were interesting (and confusing) to me, so I wanted to find out why they seemed different than how I was seeing things.

And then when I kept feeling misunderstood, I was trying to be more specific about what I was asking.

What I think is happening is that my questions, because they are about a typically contentious topic and being asked in a messaging format, are being taken as moral attacks on "Pete" or anyone who would think it was ok for Pete to enjoy the sex he paid for from a beautiful, died-and-gone-to-heaven-quality 19yr old.

I AM NOT. I have said in every post (I think), that I HAVE NO MORAL OBJECTION to what Pete did. I don't feel threatened in any way by men enjoying prostitutes (or porn, or hookups, or FWB, etc etc). I DO NOT CARE. 

I thought it was interesting, so I asked some questions about what I saw differently that didn't make sense to me. THAT'S ALL I thought I was doing.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> So the wife is a financial liability, a dependent, the hooker is not, so it’s ok to cheat on your wife with a hooker and she should not take it personally because her husband has her on a contract while the hooker is a freelancer.
> 
> If this is truly how men think, the it is what it is. But it’s insulting to the wife’s intelligence to imply she means more to him than the hooker. She’s contract and the sex with the hooker is not her business.


I'm not sure I'm following you or fully understanding what you are asking. Can you rephrase?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> I didn't read the whole wikipedia, but I looked up the legal status of prostitution in France. It is legal for an adult to be a prostitute in France and legal to "sell sex." However it is illegal and punishable by fine to "buy" sex and it is illegal to run a brothel and illegal to pimp.
> 
> So in other words, the prostitutes themselves are legal contractors and presumably have agency over their own contracts. So she was a consenting adult engaging in a legal vocation for her own money.
> 
> ...


UGH...I have to say, I am disappointed that you are misunderstanding me and seem to think that I was making an argument, when I was simply floating that as an IDEA and POSSIBILITY. And wondering what everyone thought of it.

I NEVER said that he shouldn't have visited the prostitute, so I don't know why you keep thinking that's what I meant. 

Thanks for the information, but I know how prostitution works...which is why I have NO objection to it personally.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DudeInProgress said:


> 1. I had (and have) no interest in reading through this lengthy “Pete” example. If the point was that he used prostitutes for emotion-free sex, I don’t care.
> If the point was that he used prostitutes for emotion-free sex WHILE MARRIED - that’s wrong.
> 2. You still seem to be missing the point that sex can be a deep emotional connection, or it can also be just sex.
> The fact that sex can be “just sex” sometimes or with some people, does not negate the fact that sex is absolutely part of the deep emotional connection within a marriage.
> ...


Then actually, we agree Petes sex with the prostitute was adultery and it was wrong. But I disagree that you can have sex with a hooker one day and with your wife the next day and your wife should be ok because it was “just sex.” All cats are grey in the dark. Sex with your wife only has meaning if it’s exclusive. If it’s not she is no different from the prostitute. The point I’m making is that men cannot say they “need emotional intimacy” by having sex with their wives and then have sex later that evening with a stranger and claim one is emotional and one is not. The reality is what it is. It is utterly pathetic when a woman says it’s fine for her husband to sleep around as long as she’s the one who gets to wash his underwear.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Loves Coffee said:


> I took that part off because I realized you might take it wrong, but looks like you are here posting frequently. The question still stands why you care so much? I didn't think the prostitute's part in the story had any weight whatsoever. The subject was Pete.


Also, to finish this up, I don't "care" at all. I was having fun with the concepts and differences, and they were interesting to me so I felt free to ask about them.

It's not fun anymore so I have no more answers for you.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> UGH...I have to say, I am disappointed that you are misunderstanding me and seem to think that I was making an argument, when I was simply floating that as an IDEA and POSSIBILITY. And wondering what everyone thought of it.
> 
> I NEVER said that he shouldn't have visited the prostitute, so I don't know why you keep thinking that's what I meant.
> 
> Thanks for the information, but I know how prostitution works...which is why I have NO objection to it personally.


So in your view, married men can hire hookers all they want and they’re not doing anything wrong? Just trying to be sure I understand. I realize not all people care about fidelity, I’m just trying to understand your particular position. You’d be fine if your spouse regularly hired hookers?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DudeInProgress said:


> if there were posters celebrating a man cheating on his wife with prostitutes, please tell me who that was, because I’m pretty sure they’d be universally blasted on here. And rightfully so.


You can read the thread for yourself, I don’t need to rehash the whole thing for you . But no, a man saw a hooker and many posters not only think he did nothing wrong, but celebrated that he had sex with a beautiful 19 year old and are sure she thoroughly enjoyed it and have no issue with married men cheating on their wives with hookers. He was not at all bashed, he was almost universally celebrated, as was the hooker who is believed to have gleefully volunteered to continue having sex with a married man.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> “Pete” had sex with a prostitute. That is being celebrated as a good thing, and one poster said that hookers understand how women should be. My point is that everyone claiming that he did nothing wrong as has no credibility if they claim sex with their wives has some magical emotional component. If sex is just an empty physical release, that is all it is. Someone cannot cheat on Tuesday then have sex with their spouse on Wednesday and claim the two activities are “different.” They are not.
> 
> A male poster conceded that sex with his wife now has an emotional component, one it may not have had prior to that relationship. Once in that relationship it changes. No one had an issue. Other female posters have expressed that using prostitutes is not ok for married people. I say the same thing and I get this gaslighting routine pretending I’m a mindless man hating man hater who hates men. Your narrative is exhausting. Argue the point if you want. But If you’re name calling straight out of the gate, this is about your perception of me, and does not refute what I have said.


OK, I'm lost. 

I'm not seeing where anyone is "celebrating" Pete. The poster that told the Pete story said Pete indicated it was a great experience for him, but noone has celebrated it or said we should all run out and get with hookers. And maybe it's getting late and my reading comprehension is declining but I'm not even understanding what you are saying about emotional components he didn't have prior to that relationship. What relationship? Who are you talking about???

Can you quote some of the posts so I can see what you are talking about?

Can


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Can you quote some of the posts so I can see what you are talking about?


You can read the thread for yourself. The original mention was about his happiness with this new woman and how much better of he was. Then posters followed up that he’d not done anything wrong and wasn’t it wonderful. 

Let me try again, I’m worn out so I may not be expressing this clearly. It is inconsistent to say that for example, Pete has sex with this hooker and people are happy he got the amazing young person sex and he’s done nothing wrong because it’s just sex, and then turn around and claim he would have a different connection if he sex with his wife. It’s not a great analogy because Pete has no love for his wife. I have heard it said many times that men use sex to “bond” with their wives and sex is special to them. Then some of those same men are claiming Pete didn’t do anything wrong because it was “just sex,” meaning that sex with hookers or stranger or other women they know while married is “just sex” and therefore the wife has no right to complain. It doesn’t work both ways. If for example I found out my H was seeing hookers, according to this thread he’s not doing anything wrong and I shouldn’t take it personally and shouldn’t end the marriage or stop being his plan b, because somehow I’m “different.” 

I was told by more than one cheating man, both in my past relationships and by husbands of friends who are regularly unfaithful exactly what I’m hearing on here: there should be no moral objection to adultery because it’s “just sex,” but sex with wives is different somehow. (Incidentally I have never seen this go the other way)

I’m exhausted and that’s as clear as I can be. If you’re married and sleeping around then your wife is no more to you than all the other women. No one has a magic *****. Sex is special or it isn’t, it can’t be both.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> UGH...I have to say, I am disappointed that you are misunderstanding me and seem to think that I was making an argument, when I was simply floating that as an IDEA and POSSIBILITY. And wondering what everyone thought of it.
> 
> I NEVER said that he shouldn't have visited the prostitute, so I don't know why you keep thinking that's what I meant.
> 
> Thanks for the information, but I know how prostitution works...which is why I have NO objection to it personally.


Sorry, maybe I'm not connecting all the dots on what you're asking. 

I don't think you're saying he shouldn't have visited the prostitute, I know you're not doing that. 

I was trying to address your assertion(question?) that Pete was somehow contributing to her future sexual dysfunction and that is too nebulous of a concept for me to fully address. We're talking about a voluntary, mutual contract between consenting adults so discussing the emotional ramifications of that 20 years from now is just too much. We not talking about abuse or exploitation here.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

DudeInProgress said:


> I don’t understand why this is hard for you.
> 
> Yes, sex is a lustfull physical desire which may or may not involve a deep emotional connection.
> And also…
> ...


Because that notion is constantly contradicted on this forum. Often by men who think their wives ought to pretend to be into it when they're pressured to give duty sex.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Because that notion is constantly contradicted on this forum. Often by men who think their wives ought to pretend to be into it when they're pressured to give duty sex.


And isn’t sex with a prostitute the ultimate expression of duty sex? It’s literally her job. If her theatrics are appreciated and lauded, it makes no sense for men to be upset when they find out their wives only had sex with them to “keep them happy.” They prefer the hookers because their whole job is to “keep them happy.” It’s illogical to be upset if your wife does the same thing.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

They're just sending you on a goose chase, Texas Mom.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> They're just sending you on a goose chase, Texas Mom.


I know, I’m walking away. Once they’re demanding I quote other posters, it’s clear they’re just lying about what was said, by them in more cases than not. Waste of time. I did learn that I was right about a lot of things.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Because that notion is constantly contradicted on this forum. Often by men who think their wives ought to pretend to be into it when they're pressured to give duty sex.


It’s not about wives pretending to be into it if it’s miserable for them.. Nobody wants begrudging duty sex. 
And if that’s the status of the marriage, then work needs to be done to improve it or end it. 

What you don’t seem to understand is that wives who are in love with their husband, in good marriages actually want to please their husbands and meet his sexual needs, even when his needs are more frequent than hers.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Why all the hullabaloo about some loser having to pay for pretend enthusiastic sex?

He wasn't even man enough to be honest and leave first. To me, he comes across like a passive aggressive little ****, punishing his wife behind her back for not putting out instead of going his way.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> You can read the thread for yourself. The original mention was about his happiness with this new woman and how much better of he was. Then posters followed up that he’d not done anything wrong and wasn’t it wonderful.
> 
> Let me try again, I’m worn out so I may not be expressing this clearly. It is inconsistent to say that for example, Pete has sex with this hooker and people are happy he got the amazing young person sex and he’s done nothing wrong because it’s just sex, and then turn around and claim he would have a different connection if he sex with his wife. It’s not a great analogy because Pete has no love for his wife. I have heard it said many times that men use sex to “bond” with their wives and sex is special to them. Then some of those same men are claiming Pete didn’t do anything wrong because it was “just sex,” meaning that sex with hookers or stranger or other women they know while married is “just sex” and therefore the wife has no right to complain. It doesn’t work both ways. If for example I found out my H was seeing hookers, according to this thread he’s not doing anything wrong and I shouldn’t take it personally and shouldn’t end the marriage or stop being his plan b, because somehow I’m “different.”
> 
> ...


OK I see what youre saying a bit more now. 

There's a number of things here. 

I want to start off with however that if someone is cheating on you and telling you "it's just sex" with the other person, but with you it's special.... well don't you Texans have a saying not to pee on your boots and tell you that you are standing in the rain. That's just some of the dumb stuff cheaters say. 

But in the case of Pete, as the story was presented (keeping in mind the story was from a 3rd party) he has been in a pretty much sexless marriage for 20 years. We obviously don't know the real details but lets just go with what was presented. For me personally, if someone has consistently rejected their partner for years, I don't care what the partner does. I'm not going to applaud and cheer if he/she gets it somewhere else and I'm not going to pat them on the back if they get a hooker and to me, paying hookers is about as pathetic as one can get, BUT,,, I'm not going to shed a tear for the one rejecting them either. 

It's not like they didn't know that eventually they'll either leave or get it elsewhere or both. 

And after a certain point, I don't even consider that cheating. If someone does not want to be with their spouse and rejects them for years, shouldn't it be a blessing to them when they get it elsewhere. 

So your point is men claim they bond over sex but it's ok to go to a hooker because that is "just sex." I see the contradiction you're getting at. 

But lets flip this around. I think we can all agree that sex is very important to men. Have we ever heard a man say that sex is not important? Many men will say it's a critical factor for them to bond. Yes, the hooker aspect of that would seem contradictory but then we can also add that sometimes men just need to drain the tank. Either way it shows sex is a pretty big deal to most men. Can we agree on that?

The people that often act like sex is NOT important to them and that they can live quite well without it and some will reject their intimate partners for years and sometimes permanently and say that it's not that big a deal are women. And women will often even get resentful of men's desire for sex and think that they should learn to live without it as well. 

OK so if sex is not that big of a deal and it's not or at least should not be a critical factor in a long term relationship,,,,, then why do women care if their partner gets it elsewhere??????? If it's not important to them and if it's just another distasteful chore to them and if they are resentful of men's want and need for sex - then why do they get so upset and hurt and angry if the guy gets it elsewhere??? 

Or in Pete's case, if his wife hasn't wanted to be intimate with him for 20 years, not only why should she be upset, but why wouldn't she be downright thankful he was got it from some young thing that made his toes curl up his backside so now he will get off her back about it? 

If she doesn't want to be with him and has rejected him for many years, why is that even cheating and what is it cheating her out of???? 

Could it be that she actually DOES realize that sex is important to him?? Could it be that she really DOES know that sex is a key factor in men's bonding and a critical component to how he feels about his partner? Could it be that she actually does know that if a man is not getting it from his partner, that it could cause him to lose love and esteem for her? And could it be that one of the reason she would get upset with him going elsewhere is that his affections and love and in turn his resources and support could turn to someone else? Could that all be part of the reason that someone who acts like they themselves don't care about sex and don't see the big deal would get upset if their partner gets it elsewhere? 

So you see there is some contradiction and dichotomy in narative of Pete's wife here too. (assuming she minds that he got with a hooker. she may not for all we know) But assuming she is upset and considers it cheating, isn't she also peeing on his boots and telling him he's standing in the rain? 

So yes, you are right, there is some contradiction there. But there's contradiction in the people that have rejected their partner and haven't touched them in desire for years and then get all butthurt when they find out they are getting with someone else. 

Now I'll also add that I have no quarter for men that reject and deny their wives either. No guy better come crying to me in his beer and telling me a sob story of his wife getting with some guy after he's been denying her for months or years. That's just plain insane because a women can get that anywhere, anytime from anyone if she ain't getting it at home. If some guy is refusing his partner, he's not only a lame lover, he's also downright dumb.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Because that notion is constantly contradicted on this forum. Often by men who think their wives ought to pretend to be into it when they're pressured to give duty sex.


I have never once heard one single person say that here. 

..... or anywhere for that matter.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I know, I’m walking away. Once they’re demanding I quote other posters, it’s clear they’re just lying about what was said, by them in more cases than not. Waste of time. I did learn that I was right about a lot of things.


No, people ask for quotes because they don't know who or what you are talking about and you are often saying people said things that they did not actually say.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Then actually, we agree Petes sex with the prostitute was adultery and it was wrong. But I disagree that you can have sex with a hooker one day and with your wife the next day and your wife should be ok because it was “just sex.” All cats are grey in the dark. Sex with your wife only has meaning if it’s exclusive. If it’s not she is no different from the prostitute. The point I’m making is that men cannot say they “need emotional intimacy” by having sex with their wives and then have sex later that evening with a stranger and claim one is emotional and one is not. The reality is what it is. It is utterly pathetic when a woman says it’s fine for her husband to sleep around as long as she’s the one who gets to wash his underwear.


Here is a prime example of why you seem so confusing to me. 

@DudeInProgress said in all instances that adultery is wrong. Whether you are having "just sex" or any kind of sex while married is wrong. That was exactly what he said and you agree with it based on your comment: "*Then actually, we agree Petes sex with the prostitute was adultery and it was wrong."*

The the very next line you say: *"But I disagree that you can have sex with a hooker one day and with your wife the next day and your wife should be ok because it was “just sex.”" *You are disagreeing with something @DudeInProgress never said. Why did you write a completely contradictory statement in the very next line that contains something that no one has said?

I think every single person posting here has condemned any kind of sex with someone other than your spouse as adultery.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Here is a prime example of why you seem so confusing to me.
> 
> @DudeInProgress said in all instances that adultery is wrong. Whether you are having "just sex" or any kind of sex while married is wrong. That was exactly what he said and you agree with it based on your comment: "*Then actually, we agree Petes sex with the prostitute was adultery and it was wrong."*
> 
> ...


Because I’m not expressing myself very well. DiP is saying that sex can be meaningful with one person and meaningless with another. Which over the course of one’s life is true, but I believe that once you attach meaning to sex, it changes.

I said that I’ve been told by someone who cheated on me that sex is different with me because he claimed to “love” me. The argument was that when he slept with me it was a meaningful expression of love because somehow I’m “special” and the sex with that other woman was just sex. That is simply nonsense. I don’t believe you switch that on and off, if sex with the other woman meant nothing then I also meant nothing.

I don’t know if that’s any clearer. It would probably be clearer if someone else posted it since the impression that you have of me colors everything I post. You assume I’m “man bashing” and so you read everything looking for that. I doubt this is something I can fix or explain since the problem you have is with me.

The people on here who congratulated “Pete” for experiencing wonderful sex with a beautiful 19 year old are also proving that sex with their wives is just sex. Pete experienced nirvana with this hooker, so for them, sex with a hooker is the same (or better) than sex with a spouse. They’re not having sex for any kind of emotional connection.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Nice edit, TM.

I see what you did there! 😂 Looks like I was able to capture your actual thoughts with your first post pre-edit.


Good job saving face and saying “not all men are the same”

I highly doubt you actually believe that, but whatever.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I highly doubt you actually believe that, but whatever.


I see. So there is nothing I could say that you won’t interpret as man bashing because when I don’t bash men you accuse me of lying. Good to know.

I went back and edited that post because I realized how it sounded and that wasn't what I wanted to say. So I fixed it. But according to you, I shouldn't have bothered, because it doesn't matter what I mean, you have already decided what I mean. I should just let you write my posts since you know what I'm thinking.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> OK so if sex is not that big of a deal and it's not or at least should not be a critical factor in a long term relationship,,,,, then why do women care if their partner gets it elsewhere??????? If it's not important to them and if it's just another distasteful chore to them and if they are resentful of men's want and need for sex - then why do they get so upset and hurt and angry if the guy gets it elsewhere???


I agree with you on this. If "sex isn't important" then the wife shouldn't be upset when the man gets it elsewhere. It's logically inconsistent to demand fidelity and then refuse to have sex.


oldshirt said:


> So yes, you are right, there is some contradiction there. But there's contradiction in the people that have rejected their partner and haven't touched them in desire for years and then get all butthurt when they find out they are getting with someone else.


So because there is contradiction in one situation, the contradiction in other, unrelated situations doesn't matter?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

TexasMom1216 said:


> So in your view, married men can hire hookers all they want and they’re not doing anything wrong? Just trying to be sure I understand. I realize not all people care about fidelity, I’m just trying to understand your particular position. You’d be fine if your spouse regularly hired hookers?


NO, of course not. Adultery in all forms is wrong to me, for husbands or wives.
All I meant was that I wasn't focusing on that particular part of the story, because I was interested in the situation and it's interpretation by some posters on here...I wasn't interested in the moral implications, because they are clearly wrong.

However, I will say that in my mind, a spouse refusing to have sex with their partner is also breaking their vows and committing a betrayal just as grievous as physically cheating. So I don't believe it's morally wrong for people in sexless relationships to have sex with someone else...I believe it's stupid and WEAK (they should just leave), but not a betrayal at all.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> NO, of course not. Adultery in all forms is wrong to me, for husbands or wives.
> All I meant was that I wasn't focusing on that particular part of the story, because I was interested in the situation and it's interpretation by some posters on here...I wasn't interested in the moral implications, because they are clearly wrong.
> 
> However, I will say that in my mind, a spouse refusing to have sex with their partner is also breaking their vows and committing a betrayal just as grievous as physically cheating. So I don't believe it's morally wrong for people in sexless relationships to have sex with someone else...I believe it's stupid and WEAK (they should just leave), but not a betrayal at all.


Thanks for explaining. I understand what you’re saying and agree with you.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I see. So there is nothing I could say that you won’t interpret as man bashing because when I don’t bash men you accuse me of lying. Good to know.
> 
> I went back and edited that post because I realized how it sounded and that wasn't what I wanted to say. So I fixed it. But according to you, I shouldn't have bothered, because it doesn't matter what I mean, you have already decided what I mean. I should just let you write my posts since you know what I'm thinking.


Real simple to say, “edited for clarity. I didn’t mean “all men” when I made my comment earlier. That was my mistake.” 

Had you put in an ACCOUNTABILITY qualifier, I’d be more inclined to believe you. Instead, you did the sneaky edit. 

Maybe you are telling the truth? Your previous comments lead me to believe you aren’t, but I could very well be wrong. 

Just remember this:
Your mentor believes ALL MEN should have to go to the police station to learn NOT to rape. 

All men - so you know exactly what that means. 

I used to really enjoy your posts here prior to you getting grabbed by the man haters. Hopefully you find your way back.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Real simple to say, “edited for clarity. I didn’t mean “all men” when I made my comment earlier. That was my mistake.”
> 
> Had you put in an ACCOUNTABILITY qualifier, I’d be more inclined to believe you. Instead, you did the sneaky edit.
> 
> Maybe you are telling the truth? Your previous comments lead me to believe you aren’t, but I could very well be wrong.


OK, this is fair and something I can certainly do. I haven't done that before, but your characterization that I "sneakily" edit is flat out wrong. More often than not, especially if I'm posting from my phone, I go back and edit for spelling, autocorrect weirdness, punctuation, etc. But if "accountability qualifiers" would help stop these constant attacks, that is something I can certainly do, I have no problem with it. I thought about doing it several times and thought it would seem kiss-assy, and knew that most of you wouldn't buy it anyway, you'd make the same accusations you're going to make anyway. Which you have said you will.


LATERILUS79 said:


> Just remember this:
> *Your mentor* believes ALL MEN should have to go to the police station to learn NOT to rape.
> 
> All men - so you know exactly what that means.
> ...


My "mentor"? What? I don't have a mentor. Are you saying that the reason you automatically react to my posts by screaming "man hater" is because you don't like someone else? I know who you mean, she is my friend, one of the only people on here who bothered to care what I was actually going through instead of just tearing me down. She and I don't agree on everything, but we give each other the benefit of the doubt and see the good in each other even when we disagree. Not the norm for the treatment I've gotten around here, benefit of the doubt is not something I've ever gotten from most of the posters on here. 

I didn't get "grabbed" by the "man haters." Other female posters say the exact same thing I say and I'm the only one that gets called out as "man hating." That's the only "grabbing" that's going on.

I'm skeptical there's a road back for me on this forum. There's too much vitriol for me, regardless of what I post. I do appreciate your honesty, though. I've suspected for a while that reactions like yours were automatic, and when I point it out I get either crickets or "what an angry woman you are." I have had some of the few posters who have been good to me point out that some of my posts are unnecessarily inflammatory and I have been making an effort to be aware of that and do better. I know now those efforts are pointless.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> OK, this is fair and something I can certainly do. I haven't done that before, but your characterization that I "sneakily" edit is flat out wrong. More often than not, especially if I'm posting from my phone, I go back and edit for spelling, autocorrect weirdness, punctuation, etc. But if "accountability qualifiers" would help stop these constant attacks, that is something I can certainly do, I have no problem with it. I thought about doing it several times and thought it would seem kiss-assy, and knew that most of you wouldn't buy it anyway, you'd make the same accusations you're going to make anyway. Which you have said you will.
> 
> My "mentor"? What? I don't have a mentor. Are you saying that the reason you automatically react to my posts by screaming "man hater" is because you don't like someone else? I know who you mean, she is my friend, one of the only people on here who bothered to care what I was actually going through instead of just tearing me down. She and I don't agree on everything, but we give each other the benefit of the doubt and see the good in each other even when we disagree. Not the norm for the treatment I've gotten around here, benefit of the doubt is not something I've ever gotten from most of the posters on here.
> 
> ...


Fair points. 

And this is why I still read and respond to your posts. 

And I very much appreciate your detailed explanation. 

I don’t speak for all people here. I can only speak for myself. You easily have a road back as far I am concerned.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> That talk should happen before you get married so you don't get into something you don't want to deal with.


easy to say in hind sight ,
when we got together we know nothing about sex , and no sex ed 
so no idea what to expect no idea what we would like and where our sex life would bring us 

a bit like the first 50 shades of gray when she was making the contract with Mr Gray 
half the stuff he wanted in the contract she know nothing about , 

now if I am my wife were to talk about sex after 30 years together it would be different , but a lot of couples still meet and stay together the rest of their life , 

we know about the ones that don't work out but we don't know anything about the ones that do , they don't talk much to others outside their bed room or red room which ever it is , lol


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

frenchpaddy said:


> easy to say in hind sight ,
> when we got together we know nothing about sex , and no sex ed
> so no idea what to expect no idea what we would like and where our sex life would bring us
> 
> ...


I didn't read 50 shades of Gray but I think I know what you're saying.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I didn't read 50 shades of Gray but I think I know what you're saying.


i saw the film , not into reading that type rubbish lol


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

*Deidre* said:


> I wonder this, too. Are husbands asking and expecting their wives to share every sordid detail from their past sexual experiences? My observation with those stories, many people are insecure and jealous, and must know how they ''rank'' with every past sexual partner their spouse has. To me, this serves no positive purpose. 🤷‍♀️


Then you end up reading one of those flaming hot she did it for him but not me threads. If she knows well enough about him that she should keep her mouth shut then I don’t blame her.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> However, I will say that in my mind, a spouse refusing to have sex with their partner is also breaking their vows and committing a betrayal just as grievous as physically cheating. So I don't believe it's morally wrong for people in sexless relationships to have sex with someone else...I believe it's stupid and WEAK (they should just leave), but not a betrayal at all.


I'll say that this is a really difficult problem.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Laurentium said:


> I'll say that this is a really difficult problem.


Why?


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Personal said:


> Why?


In my opinion, there are so many contextual factors in each case, it's really hard to lay down sweeping general principles. 

I'd like to say deceiving your spouse is _always _wrong -- but someone may be able to come up with an example where it isn't clear. I'd like to say having to have sex that you really don't want to is _always _wrong -- but someone may be able to come up with an example where it isn't so clear. Age makes a difference. Children makes a difference. I'd like to say if you can't tolerate sex with your spouse, _and_ you can't tolerate them having sex with someone else, then you should end the relationship. But that may not be what your spouse wants you to do. I'd always advise people not to think too much about their "rights". Except in those cases where it looks like they are being morally abused. I find it hard to make general rules.


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## Loves Coffee (4 mo ago)

TexasMom1216 said:


> If you’re saying that you don’t cheat because after sex with your wife it’s different then I misunderstood you and I apologize. But if you’re sleeping around and claiming that your wife is “special,” that’s nonsense.


This wasn't about me, but no I don't sleep around. I've never had a ONS or a prostitute, so I can't really relate. I can say that based on the story that Pete enjoyed the prostitute more than his wife. That was my takeaway.


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## Loves Coffee (4 mo ago)

LisaDiane said:


> Also, to finish this up, I don't "care" at all. I was having fun with the concepts and differences, and they were interesting to me so I felt free to ask about them.
> 
> It's not fun anymore so I have no more answers for you.


Ah I got you. Sorry I misunderstood.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

gameopoly5 said:


> It is said the true person is exposed either by what they say or act when they`re drunk.
> My cousin`s wife was doing things with that guy that she had never done with him throughout their whole marriage even when she`d had a few drinks.
> My point being, when a wife acts like a prude with her husband while married, it doesn`t always mean that`s her real character, she`s only like that with her husband.
> If this had been me I think I`d also had left her there because I would have been repulsed and shocked discovering the real her and she`d never shown her real characterr when with me.
> But there are no rights and wrongs to my question, people may react in different ways if unfortunate enough to be in that situation, but it`s good to get other perspectives on this story.


In today's time I would have recorded and posted to FB so all our friends and family would know why I was divorcing the harlot.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Jimi007 said:


> I would have never have left her there drunk. I would have stopped it as soon as it got started...She's drunk..you don't leave her to the wolves...Your cousin didn't act like a husband 😒 They probably ran a train on her..Hubby left...seen it before


She should have never started flirting with the other guy. The alcohol just lowered her inhabitions so she did what she was wanting to do from the start. She was for the streets, or as you say...the train station. Imagine she enjoyed the ride!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Laurentium said:


> In my opinion, there are so many contextual factors in each case, it's really hard to lay down sweeping general principles.
> 
> I'd like to say deceiving your spouse is _always _wrong -- but someone may be able to come up with an example where it isn't clear. I'd like to say having to have sex that you really don't want to is _always _wrong -- but someone may be able to come up with an example where it isn't so clear. Age makes a difference. Children makes a difference. I'd like to say if you can't tolerate sex with your spouse, _and_ you can't tolerate them having sex with someone else, then you should end the relationship. But that may not be what your spouse wants you to do. I'd always advise people not to think too much about their "rights". Except in those cases where it looks like they are being morally abused. I find it hard to make general rules.


I see what you mean with these examples. 

What do you think about focusing more on the INTENT behind the actions, as opposed to the actions themselves?
Because I find that if I can understand and accept the intent someone has behind something they do, I can navigate that gray area more easily. The principles that matter to me are more about WHY they chose to do or not do something.
And conversely, if I cannot understand or accept their reasons why, what they do or don't do isn't important to me at all.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> What do you think about focusing more on the INTENT behind the actions, as opposed to the actions themselves?


Yes, I think that's good. So if for example you feel no desire for sex with your partner, how do you act with good intent, and how do you communicate that good intent?


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I keep seeing “trust” come up.
> 
> Your situation is different because of your marriage and how terrible your husband treated you, but with a normal man, why is trust so difficult?
> 
> ...


My wife understands, that to me, the perfect wife is my lady on my arm in public, but a 304 for me behind closed doors. She checks all my boxes and tells me she will do anything I want her to do, as she fully trusts me with her heart and her body. Again the reason I say I am Divinely Favored.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Laurentium said:


> Yes, I think that's good. So if for example you feel no desire for sex with your partner, how do you act with good intent, and how do you communicate that good intent?


That's not a good example for me, because I can't ever remember a time when I felt no desire for either of my partners...and I am sure that even if I had, I wouldn't have refused sex with them (just like I would never say No to a back rub).

But for me, good intent for a partner who didn't desire me would need to be communicated honestly and openly, with NO hints of deflection or gaslighting, with a focus on solving or working around the issue so that both our needs could be met.

Bad intent from him would be a SELF-CENTERED focus, because I believe that selfishness is the cancer of relationships. So from that perspective, any intent that is self-serving to one of the partners to the exclusion of the other (whether about sex or anything else between them), is bad intent and can be considered very bad for the relationship.

That is just my very general opinion!


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Andy1001 said:


> Where I’m from we call that rape.


Where I am from, law may classify it as rape, but we call it a person getting freaky after they have a buzz and lowered inhibitions and doing what they really wanted to do, then regretting their behavior the next day because they don't want to face the concequences and blaming the alcohol and the other drunk person they screwed. 

I have my own regrets, but I own my stupid decisions and am not crying rape against the girls, even though I do not remember the sexual escapades that went on. One of them I did not even know it had occurred until a week later when she informed my buddy she had F'ed me at my house on my waterbed. 

Word to the wise...do not mix rum and white lightning. You loose blocks of time.....


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

plastow said:


> hi i am the person you refered to,and thinking about what you say rings a bell.my wife has never in all those years been sexually adventurous and in fact downright boring we have over the years talked about it but all she does is say you tell me what you want and i will see.then after a few times it goes back to normal.we are very much in love but sex has never been very exciting ,thats why when the chance came up i thought it would be so hot.but she was a different person to the one ive known for so many years and thinking about it i think that helped to make me so uneasy with what went on.


I would never allow that, but if I were one to, her behavior difference between me and OM would be the end of us.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

plastow said:


> as she was drunk out of her mind he should have pulled her from the guys clutches and dragged her home.had a long talk with her in the morning and either leave or install boundaries of not drinking so much and staying close to her husband.i undrstand he would be so angry so would i but he left her there to be used by whoever.he did have some responsailty to protect her even from herself as her husband.


I would have walked out after I drop kicked the guy, then file on her.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

bobert said:


> Say a husband wants to try anal, and his wife doesn't want to. She may say "no, I don't like it", which gives the information away quite easily. Or if she flat out says "no", he may ask if she's ever tried it.
> 
> That's just having a conversation, not necessarily prying for every sordid detail of their wife's sexual history.
> 
> Personally, I don't care what my wife did with anyone who came _before _me (affairs were a different story). I know some of the details because they have come up in conversation, but I don't know everything (or if there is even more to know).


Exactly! With my wife and I there were discussions about things done before. Anal was brought up, I had done 1x with prior GF(the cheating nympho) because she wanted to, but it really did nothing for me. Wife stated she did not care for it and did with 1st serial cheating hubby, trying to keep her marriage. Doing it because he wanted to only and she was afraid he would leave if she didn't. 

She has also said, she would do anything I wanted to do.


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## GoodDad5 (9 mo ago)

We’ve had discussions recently and even though I haven’t brought up things like anal in a long time she says she doesn’t like it, even though she’s never tried it. For oral she says she doesn’t like it, makes her disgusted thinking about it, and would rather leave than do that. I just have to give up on ever hoping I’ll experience that again.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> Also we need to keep in mind that people select different sex partners for different purposes and scenarios.
> 
> A man that a woman brings home to the family and integrates into her public social circle and marries and raises children will be chosen on his ability to support and provide and his ability to get along with family and be a good father etc etc and it’s a bonus if he is good looking and can give her orgasms.
> 
> ...


Which reinforces, wife is not doing it for hubby because she is not as sexually attracted to him as the ONS F-Buddy.


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## GoodDad5 (9 mo ago)

Yet mine tells me another man wouldn’t spark her desire either. She just doesn’t have one.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

GoodDad5 said:


> We’ve had discussions recently and even though I haven’t brought up things like anal in a long time she says she doesn’t like it, even though she’s never tried it. For oral she says she doesn’t like it, makes her disgusted thinking about it, and would rather leave than do that. I just have to give up on ever hoping I’ll experience that again.


Or just leave. Why stay if the one thing you want from her she won’t give you?


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

GoodDad5 said:


> Yet mine tells me another man wouldn’t spark her desire either. She just doesn’t have one.


I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that she is lying to you to avoid an argument - or she is telling herself that she is "saving" you from hurting your feelings. 


For example, earlier this year when my exwife cut off sex again to re-establish our dead bedroom (prior to her telling me she wanted a divorce), I told her that if she got horny, she should be coming to me to solve that issue and not to masturbate. She promised me that she wouldn't masturbate and definitely come to me if she got horny. Then of course I caught her masturbating. I asked her why she lied to me and she said that she was afraid of how I would react. 


Point here is this: low sex drive people are going to lie as much as possible to avoid having to talk about sex or keep up their end of the marriage, period. I highly doubt your wife is telling you the truth.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Luckylucky said:


> Women are pretty simple too. It just takes a few nice words, dirty ones even to get us warmed up. And at its simplest, a husband who is happy to see you when he walks through the door, even if he needs to chill for an hour on the couch afterwards, is enough to make some of us want to feel that liberation you speak of.
> 
> Just a little glint in his eye, some excitement when he speaks to you throughout the day, so that you FEEL like he thinks you’re the *** he wants to sleep with. You just have to know how to look at her, and most husbands can’t do that properly. And learn to talk to her. A stranger at a supermarket could talk the talk and give a certain look and she’d at least be thinking of it, even if she’s the most faithful wife.
> 
> Women don’t like to be ignored all day, and we know men are busy and can sympathise. But a bland blank face, some yelling and criticism - nobody wants to have sex with that when it’s a tap on the shoulder from your husband who hasn’t even smiled at you or said anything remotely saucy. Make us feel dirty, and you’d be shocked what can happen at home.


Yep. I work from home, so does my wife. There is some type of touch/ foreplay all day long. The is hyper turned on just by how much I want her. I show it and she eats it up. It makes her feel sexy and wanted...badly. I also reinforce when she is being naughty in the bedroom, that she is such a good girl! I would say most anything goes, except for a 3rd person. There would be bloodshed from both sides on that. We are both violently monogamous.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Divinely Favored said:


> Yep. I work from home, so does my wife. There is some type of touch/ foreplay all day long. The is hyper turned on just by how much I want her. I show it and she eats it up. It makes her feel sexy and wanted...badly. I also reinforce when she is being naughty in the bedroom, that she is such a good girl! I would say most anything goes, except for a 3rd person. There would be bloodshed from both sides on that. We are both violently monogamous.


LOL, I like that, violently monogamous.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I think we've busted the whole "I have sex with my wife for intimacy, it's how I feel close to her" claim.


Never heard him claim this, or are you again trying to put all men in one basket. If so don't presume to speak for all men.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

TexasMom1216 said:


> If I’m against adultery that is man hating? Fascinating that is the conclusion you draw. You are celebrating adultery with a prostitute and if I don’t think that’s wonderful I’m a man hater? Really? That is what you’re saying?
> 
> It’s funny that other women don’t care for celebrating adultery and they aren’t man haters.
> 
> Is it not woman hating to say that women should accept adultery as the norm?


You were throwing all men in the same boat. All men do not jive with adultry. It is right under "Thou shalt not murder" for good reason. It is very serious sin and many unrepentant people will be condemned for it when their day comes. I think it is very grevious if God listed it with Murder. And it should be treated accordingly.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

TexasMom1216 said:


> The argument on the table is that it’s ok for a man to commit adultery and that has no effect on how he feels about his wife. Basically he can have meaningless sex with a prostitute on Tuesday and then on Wednesday have sex with his wife and it’s “intimacy.”
> 
> Tell me this: if your wife had sex with a random guy on Tuesday then told you on Wednesday that sex with you was different, would you believe that? Would you accept that somehow you are different?
> 
> ...


Where are you coming up with these "arguments" ? 🧐Hell I have not even seen the table you refer to in this discussion.🙄.... Did the guy have sex with the hooker on the table or something and I missed that part🤨


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

BigDaddyNY said:


> LOL, I like that, violently monogamous.


We take action if someone of opposite sex comes around us, we both bring up our spouses with happy enthusiasm into the conversation some how. Kind of placing a roadblock so to speak. A don't even go down that road because it is a dead end street.

If that does not work, a simple "My spouse would shoot you" should suffice. She could throw in "he has several big sharp knives and would enjoy severely disfiguring you"


oldshirt said:


> OK, I'm lost.
> 
> I'm not seeing where anyone is "celebrating" Pete. The poster that told the Pete story said Pete indicated it was a great experience for him, but noone has celebrated it or said we should all run out and get with hookers. And maybe it's getting late and my reading comprehension is declining but I'm not even understanding what you are saying about emotional components he didn't have prior to that relationship. What relationship? Who are you talking about???
> 
> ...


For the love of humanity, don't encourage her! It will make you insane! 🤣


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Because I’m not expressing myself very well. DiP is saying that sex can be meaningful with one person and meaningless with another. Which over the course of one’s life is true, but I believe that once you attach meaning to sex, it changes.
> 
> I said that I’ve been told by someone who cheated on me that sex is different with me because he claimed to “love” me. The argument was that when he slept with me it was a meaningful expression of love because somehow I’m “special” and the sex with that other woman was just sex. That is simply nonsense. I don’t believe you switch that on and off, if sex with the other woman meant nothing then I also meant nothing.
> 
> ...


If sex has meaning to a person, it should be the same. To me if you loved someone, you would not have sex with another....plain and simple.
Cheating shows low moral integrity.

Having sex with someone not your spouse shows that sex does NOT have a special place. I could see someone who to them sex is just sex doing that, their bond to an SO is not a large part through physical intimacy. 

That is why it is not good for opposite types to get married. The one who sex is just sex, could cut off the sex and still be good in the marriage, to the detriment of the one that sex has a very big emotional component.

Same way that berson I think could be more prone to cheat, because sex is just sex. I see stories where the GF/Fiancee/wife cheats and when discovered wants to reconcile and says, "but I did not tell him I loved him" ...uh..yes you did. To those of us that sex has a profound emotion and meaning....the sex with AP was telling him that you loved him.

I see where you are coming from, it is your generalization of "men" that derailed your argument. Many "men" are as disgusted with other men's behaviors just like many women are if other women's behavior. 

Just like when women behave whorishly and say, "So, Men do it all the time!" Well that checked some girls off my list as unacceptable in early years, because I was not like all the other "men".


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Divinely Favored said:


> We take action if someone of opposite sex comes around us, we both bring up our spouses with happy enthusiasm into the conversation some how. Kind of placing a roadblock so to speak. A don't even go down that road because it is a dead end street.
> 
> If that does not work, a simple "My spouse would shoot you" should suffice. She could throw in "he has several big sharp knives and would enjoy severely disfiguring you"


I'm always talking up my wife. There isn't anyone I know, even casually, that isn't aware that I am very happily married. My wife apparently talks about me all the time too, based on conversations I have with her friends and coworkers when I happen to run into them

Not long ago we were out for a beer at a local farm/brewery. I did not pick up on the bartender, that we both know, getting flirty and a little too friendly with me, but my wife did and her response was quite aggressive, lol.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I'm always talking up my wife. There isn't anyone I know, even casually, that isn't aware that I am very happily married. My wife apparently talks about me all the time too, based on conversations I have with her friends and coworkers when I happen to run into them
> 
> Not long ago we were out for a beer at a local farm/brewery. I did not pick up on the bartender, that we both know, getting flirty and a little too friendly with me, but my wife did and her response was quite aggressive, lol.


Yes, I am kind of oblivious too, so I do a preemptive strike early on. Once had a female deputy at the SO I was in make a comment about a suede leather vest I was wearing for concealment. As I walked by I smiled and said Thanks, my wife really like it on me. As I walked out the door to my truck. I got in and then it hit me, her tone and mannerism!!!! She was hitting on me! Gave me very uneasy feeling after I realized it. I am what you call a social butterfly, I can carry on a conversation with about everyone. Then I started thinking how to some girls, that they may think I am interested in them because I can strike up a conversation with them. 

Then there are those who may just think I am a strange but nice man.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

GoodDad5 said:


> Yet mine tells me another man wouldn’t spark her desire either. She just doesn’t have one.





LATERILUS79 said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that she is lying to you to avoid an argument - or she is telling herself that she is "saving" you from hurting your feelings.


I think 9 times out of 10 when women say they have no mojo and that they are not desiring anything or anyone, they are sincere and are speaking their truth and are not technically lying.

But what can often happen is while they are in their state of sexual dormancy, one day after working out behind Sven From Yoga and watching his sweaty, rippling muscles and wavy blond hair during yoga class, he comes up to her with a naughty little twinkle in his deep, blue eyes and he compliments her on her form and poise and suddenly she gets that rush all over that she has not felt in a long long time. 

She feels like a teenager again - literally. She experiences the same rush as when the star quarterback winked at her when she was 16. 

It catches her just as off guard and unexpectedly.

So she wasn’t actually lying per se when she says that she has no desire for anyone, she was speaking her truth at that point in time. 

But she just hadn’t experienced it yet.


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## Jimi007 (6 mo ago)

Divinely Favored said:


> Where are you coming up with these "arguments" ? 🧐Hell I have not even seen the table you refer to in this discussion.🙄.... Did the guy have sex with the hooker on the table or something and I missed that part🤨


OMG....thats sooo funny 😆 Thanks divine, that totally made my day


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