# Update on my R



## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

DDAY Nov 2011.
M- 29 years.

We are soon to close on our second home. Wasted over 6 months due to not understanding the VA process or we would have been together sooner. I work in another city and rent an apartment during the week and go home on weekends. I started this about a year ago due to a promotion and after my WS started her A. 

My youngest son is going to rent our current home and is in the process of getting other roommates. We will be moving into our new home near the end of October.

My wife has stopped lying. The last time was about two months ago. I really got angry. She went out with her sister (long story) till 1:30 A.M. and lied about it. There was no need for her to lie. I have a problem with her sister but if my wife would have just told me the truth it would not have escalated into a major fight. My wife told me over 3 days 6 versions and I knew where she was, when, everything and yet she kept lying. I was finally ready to leave her over this. I told her to stop lying or else. I said this is really nonsense in that you keep lying over stupid stuff. I said, I know where you were, at what times, what you did and who you were with. I said, all you had to do was tell me the truth when I asked you and it would have been no big deal. All I wanted was for her to tell me where she was (I already knew) and I told her I knew all about it and was OK with it but it was when she lied that I lost it. My wife is a lousy liar. 

Been to the Virgin Islands and we will leave for Cancun in a few weeks. Been fun and will be fun.

She has done a lot more heavy lifting and has been very open.

On the negative side she still will not answer some of my questions and just wants to move on. I won't, can't until she answers questions. We had a dicussion today. This morning I asked my wife where was she last year on Tuesday and Friday. Last year on Columbus day (Monday) we drove down to the city where I work to look at a house that I was going to rent. It was fine. The next day I started orientation and stayed in a hotel until the guy I was renting the house from got my background check. He had a five year old son that would be in the house and wanted to make sure I was OK. During orientation I would call my wife. She was talking to me on the phone while having sex. Then on Friday I came home and we had sex hours after she had sex with the OM. She told me this morning that she does not remember. Sorry, I got mad and said so it was just like going out for coffee? I said, it is getting old you not remembering. I said I know where you were, what you did, when, etc. I said it was if I was there and you don't remember. I told my wife you better start remembering. I said, here it was, we were excited about my promotion and you could not wait a day to hook up with the OM. I said, this is a significant date. I was away for the first time and you were celebrating that fact with the OM and you don't remember. She said it is all a blur and all the times are fading. I don't buy it, never will.

My question for any who will listen is this. Am I being an ass? Why do these dates seem so significant to me seem not to be so for her? We go to Disney, come home on Saturday and she is having sex with the OM on Tuesday and he leaves for Disney with his family on Friday and she says I don't remember it. I said you would have talked about Disney. She says I don't remember talking about Disney to the OM. Then this week a year ago. I move to another city and the very day I move she is having sex with the OM and can't tell me anything. Says, "I don't remember". Frankly I don't get her not telling me. I know everything and yet I can't get her to say it and she lived it.

I truely want to move forward and I keep telling her until you tell me some things I can't. She says, "I want to tell you but I don't remember and just want to move forward". I told her I will not relive 2010 over again. In 2010 she had a very sexual EA and I rug swept it. I said I will not repeat 2010.

I feel like we have made great strides but I am stuck. And until I get some answers I will remain so.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

I don't know your wife so only you can truly answer this question. Is it possible that she has been so traumatized by guilt over her affair that she has repressed the details? Is she in IC and/or are you both in MC? Can this be explored there? Have you thought about a polygraph test? I really don't trust them but maybe the threat of one will jog her memory. I can understand you needed to know the details and to hear it from her but you should make sure she is actually able to provide them before you hinge your R on them.


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## margrace (Aug 12, 2012)

thorburn, i guess i'm officially with you. i have also dealt with a sort-of-R for about 6 months now. the "sort of" is that he has never told me everything. 

the way i found out anything was by catching him, and even though i know that there was more than one A in the past, he refuses to officially disclose anything beyond the one that's the most recent.

like you, i find that i can't move on under these circumstances. and i have tried! i have not wanted to be quick to toss a marriage aside, and i know that i need to work on myself, too. 

but the continued secrecy has become too much. 

i have wondered at times, is this too much to ask? but i just can't stomach it. it's such a shame, because i feel that i could forgive -- but there has to be openness about what i'm forgiving.

so if you are being an *ss, i guess i am too.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Another thought I have is that I see many WS on TAM talk about how they compartmentalized their affairs to keep them separate from the other parts of their life. Is it possible your wife did this as well. And now that her affair is over that part of her is gone or rapidly fading? I'm just brainstorming here.


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## margrace (Aug 12, 2012)

boogie110 said:


> Wow, I really feel for you. I also noticed how many posts you have posted...Are all those regarding your wife's affair?
> 
> I wish I knew more about what you are going through. Is it dates or is it how many times she had sex?
> 
> ...


my situation has some things in common with yours, boogie. how did you get your H to admit to all those involvements? or did he come out with it on his own at some point? and did he willingly go for help?

i found out what my WH has been up to, but even though he knows that i know, he refuses to acknowledge or discuss it.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

In your posts you have been consistent that your wife's lies. Given that's her habit, I'm with you that she knows/remembers but would not admit to it.

I suppose she's so used to you letting her get away with it without serious consequences that she'll just out wait you. You really want to stay with her, I can sense that. If I can sense that via your posts, she's probably more capable of that being right there with you.


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## fortheloveofit2 (Oct 1, 2012)

Without honesty I am not sure how you could have anything...


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I don't know brother....

I just don't know....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Sure she remembers, damm well.
She's an acomplished liar and a serial cheater, she's used to plan her trysts ahead. She's perfectly aware abut the practical things.
She will always give you the bare minimun info, what she can't deny. As she can always argue I don't remember'' it's what she comes with.

I had all the info I needed to back up her stories. My wife remembered all. Every single detail.

Lies are about control. Always.


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## Kasler (Jul 20, 2012)

Lies, sloppy seconds, sudden amnesia as the end all response to any argument about the affair?

False R written all over it.

And about the seconds, its take a really cold sort of woman to bang OM and then give his leavings to her husband in the same, most disgusting thing a woman can do. Also you probably already know, but she was definitely getting enjoyment out of that knowledge. 

People are different. Some don't need the details, but some can't move on until they know everything. Sounds like you fit in the later. 

I suggest you go to counseling and get this sorted, cause your in for a resentment filled marriage if you don't.


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## Mrs Chai (Sep 14, 2010)

Kasler said:


> Lies, sloppy seconds, sudden amnesia as the end all response to any argument about the affair?
> 
> False R written all over it.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


I don't think you're being an ass. 

You remember the details on that sort of thing. 

Have you expressed to her that discussing this would be more therapeutic to your R?


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Poly time for her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

She doesn't want to tell you all the sordid details. Of course she remembers & was not in some hazy "fog" during her affair. She's lying, you know it, she knows you know it..IDK why she is like that.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

I am reading a book The Monogamy Myth: A Personal Handbook for Recovering from Affairs, Third Edition by Peggy Vaughan. She talks about the higher success rates when WS share and answer questions. My wife said I want to help you get over it. My response is I will not do what I did in 2010 and you need to answer questions. She said you know the answers and I said I want to hear it from you and all she says is I don't remember.

My wife ended IC without telling me over a month ago. I asked her about it. She said she got the answers she needed and I said when were you going to tell me. Silence. What answers did you get. Silence.

I still say overall R is going well except for her silence and it does not make any sense to me. I keep telling her that I feel she is hiding things and until that ends I cannot move forward.


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## mrstj4sho88 (Sep 5, 2012)

Acabado said:


> Sure she remembers, damm well.
> She's an acomplished liar and a serial cheater, she's used to plan her trysts ahead. She's perfectly aware abut the practical things.
> She will always give you the bare minimun info, what she can't deny. As she can always argue I don't remember'' it's what she comes with.
> 
> ...


:


*I totally agree with you. When a woman has sex with a man good or bad she remembers . Heck we can even remember dreaming about having sex with a sexy man.* :smthumbup:..* Sorry for the OP because the W is not being honest.*


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Thorburn, I've been follwing you for a while. I'm very sorry you are that bad. I only can tell the truth because the opposite is doing you a huge disservice.
This


> My wife ended IC without telling me over a month ago. I asked her about it. She said she got the answers she needed and I said when were you going to tell me. Silence. What answers did you get. Silence


Contradicts


> I still say overall R is going well


I think what you have acheived so far is she stopped her f0cking OMs. But that already happened the last time, and the one before that also.

In this thread you admit: she won't disclose, she can't stop lying, she went to IC to shut you up (learned nothing).


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Your wife is a broken person and was enabled to live as she is for most of her life.(the enablers included you) She has no reason to change now. You will have to acceot that this your reality.


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## Monroe (Jun 21, 2012)

Chances are, she remembers. I remember things a boy said to me when I was in 7th grade. I remember things my ex husband said to me 20 years ago. I remember things my WS said to me on d-day. 

Women (perhaps men too.... I don't mean to stereotype... I am a chick, its all I know).... we rehash things in our minds over and over and over again. We rethink about good things and bad things. It doesn't matter, it is what we do.

I have lupus, which unfortunately messes with my memory.... but guess what, I still remember certain things. 

Hugs


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

Thorburn said:


> DDAY Nov 2011.
> M- 29 years.
> 
> 
> ...


 I firmly believe that without the truth, we can not heal. she remembers. She might not remember everything crystal clear, like the exact time or position she was in that day, but she remembers. 

If you want my honest opinion, I will say she is withholding information to try and force you to rug sweep, so she can evade the consequences of ALL of her actions. 

I can't say for sure, but I will say that I am convinced R can not happen without the full truth answered to the BS's satisfaction.


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## The bishop (Aug 19, 2012)

What heavy lifting??? Her lying, or was it forgetting, or just not telling you. How about going out until 1:30 when you are out of town and lying about it.... You were ok with her going out, but she didn't know that, thought you wouldn't be, so lied about it and STILL went out... That says a whole bunch right there. 

What the hell was she doing before her so called heavy lifting??? You are in some serious denial.


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## cantthinkstraight (May 6, 2012)

You have a long road ahead of you, my friend.

If she's not filling in the gaps for you, there's a reason why.

Either she's hiding something so bad it would send you up a wall,
or she truly wants to heal from her own shame and guilt,
which in effect, neglects what _you_ need from her.

You know her best. 

Is she sincere?


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

My ww gives me some of the same although she would not lie about, for example, going out.

Reading your post gives me a sinking feeling. 

It sounds like your wife has come to the conclusion that it is easier on the both of you to 'forget' details.

She is simply taking the path of least resistance.

I have found that I have to make a threat, let this sink in, then follow it through.

It's amazing what a ww can recall when the divorce papers are actually being drawn up by a lawyer.

You have to play hardball. Do yourself a favour and raise the stakes.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

The fact is my wife has a memory problem. It started when I was in Iraq. I can even give the clinical reason for it and when in Iraq knew what the issue was even when her doctors told her I was wrong. Too long of a story but when my wife was seeing a doctor years ago I did a lot of research, presented it to the doctor and he and several other doctors said I am presenting voodoo medicine and ignored me. My wife paid the price for that and ended up not getting treated properly. 5 years later we ran into the doctor at a play and during the intermission came to me to apologize and said that my research that I presented was correct and he now uses it as his typical treatment. It was the same for her memory issue. 

Again, not an excuse. Her memory issue has been a problem but in each instance it came back. I can give example after another but in the long run her memory always came back. And that is why I am so focused on these dates. For her to say I don't remember is excusable for a while but there has never ever been a time where she does not get it back and for me, her saying she does not remember is not getting a pass with me.

I am convinced she remembers.

Her brother told me that she may be holding something back that she feels will be a deal breaker. He said if she is not then by not coming clean it makes him and me think she is. He and I do not understand why she does not just give me what I want and move on.

I also know for a fact that her IC told her that I do not need to know everything. I told my wife tonight that her IC is no longer in her life, I am. And if she is holding on to what her IC told her then go live with her because if you want to live with me then I need information and you know what I want. I told her I will not compromise on this. I said there are ICs out there who have bought this line of **** that you just need to move on and you don't need to share the details. I said go ahead and follow your IC's advice and see where it gets us, because I will not tolerate you telling me you dont remember. I said my IC and my support group and my friends all feel you are full of crap, that you do remember. 

I do counseling for a living. My client load has increased dramatically in the last several months. With the exception of one severe mentally disturbed Veteran I have not had one complaint since I started here last October. I have not had one Veteran drop out of therapy. Not one. They keep coming back. In fact I am trying to get Veterans to see me bi-weekly or once a month and they keep insisting that they see me weekly because they keep telling my boss that I am helping them. This is a group of combat Veterans who have switched psychiatrists, psychologists or counselors when they find them to be incompetent. I am getting referrals from private practice psychiatrists and psychologists because of my reputation. I guess I am patting myself on the back here, but I don't pull punches. I have had guys try to kill themselves and had them committed and they come back to me after they are done with treatment. I have couples asking for me. I can be confrontational and tell the folks I will not put up with bull ****. 

I can poly my wife's ass. I have a guy who is good and he is an hour away. But I don't think polys work and am not sure I would get the outcome I want. If I do it and end up with more questions I just don't feel good about it. It seems too much of a crap shoot to me. If someone can convince me other wise IM me and I will consider it.

I do not believe I am in denial. I was there in December, not now. I do want my M to work and that may be skewing my mind, that I can admit but I am not in denial. Am I a sucker perhaps, not in denial. I know my wife might be trying to win the fight by trying to get me to eventually move on but that will not happen. She may have gotten me to back off but she has not got me to the point of me letting it go. What I just went through with her tonight was proof of that. She cried, got mad, etc, but I told her to knock it off and give me answers. She still says she does not remember and I said bull.

I reinforced the book I am reading and said start sharing. She said if she could remember she would tell me. I said that is not good enough.

I told her I will have a good weekend with her but she needs to come up with answers.

tommorrow she will get another chemo treatment and I will be easy on her this weekend but I will give her a letter outlining what I want so she can work on it on her leisure.

I am listening to all of you and will weigh what you say. I will not end my marriage over this right now. If I wanted to end it I would have in December. I will not be a doormat and will not rug sweep. What I will end my marriage over is if she does not give me the answers and right now I am still in the fight to get them.


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## seasalt (Jul 5, 2012)

you're fooling yourself.


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## Kasler (Jul 20, 2012)

This has to get sorted out now man. Eventually,(somewhat due to your enabling) shes going to resent you for even bringing it up.

Right now she sees her affair as ammo you use to hurt her with. Not something thats going to forever be a part of the marriage and needs to be dealt with. 

Don't back down on this. If you sweep this bomb under the rug its gonna blow someday. 

Tick tock, get this sorted fast cause right now your R is false. It doesn't matter what good things you get out of out it. Unless your getting everything, you're not getting true R. True R isn't where you get over something, its where you can get past it. Until she fesses up completely you can't move on, therefore you can get True R. 

Simple

One man on her complained so much about what his wife did with OM. All she did was give him more blowjobs from time to time, but since they never got to the heart of why she couldn't be sexual with him in the first place, she went out and had another affair(currently divorcing her BS as well atm)

Gotta get to the bottom of this. Just asking her over and over clearly isn't doing sh!t so you need to step your game up.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Everyone knows you're living with a serial cheater.
She's using her memory problems to cover her affair and other details she doesn't want to reveal. It's impossible she doesn't remember it because there's nothing major to remember. She was*n't* unconscious while having sex with the OM so there's no point in saying "I don't remember it" . And it's good to see you're not buying it.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

How long are you going to wait for answeres? When do you finally say enough is enough?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I can't remember did you expose the OM to his family?


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

boogie110 said:


> Good question: I live in Los Angeles where there is the Institute of Sexual Health. They do complete disclosures. With a polygraph. People come world wide for their help - look them up. Omar is amazing. However, before I found them - I looked up polygraph, got a $600.00 quote and told my husband tell me everything or it's the poly. He told me 50% - the prostitutes. Then it took 2 weeks or so to get all the gory details and Gosh I wish I would have never asked so many questions cuz now I know EVERYTHING. He worked on a complete disclosure with his therapist from ISH and then I said we don't need a polygraph. I'm going to do it next year and told him he will do yearly polygraphs of which he has agreed to - that is called my boundaries, in which, what I am willing to live with in order to live with him.


This sounds like something that may work for Thorburn, if he wants to stay married. 

Thorburn: I doubt your wife doesn't remember. 

She likely knows she did something that will make you very angry. 

Still, you need to feel that anger to let go and move on. The sooner she realizes this the faster you will heal, IMO


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> tommorrow she will get another chemo treatment


If she is on chemo, she may in fact have a memory problem. 

You might want to google "chemo brain"

It does cause memory loss.

So please take my prior post with a grain of salt.


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## The bishop (Aug 19, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> If she is on chemo, she may in fact have a memory problem.
> 
> You might want to google "chemo brain"
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I don't understand why you are moving forward with her. Seriously. Do you call what she's doing love?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sara8 said:


> If she is on chemo, she may in fact have a memory problem.
> 
> You might want to google "chemo brain"
> 
> ...


 Yes, but she's also a habitual compulsive liar and someone who cheats on her husband.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Sorry - I didn't know she is on chemo.

I just wonder how many BS's ever get the entire truth. You know about PTSD. Maybe she has that & blocked it out along with her memory problem.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> My wife ended IC without telling me over a month ago. I asked her about it. She said she got the answers she needed and I said when were you going to tell me. Silence. What answers did you get. Silence.
> 
> *I still say overall R is going well *except for her silence and it does not make any sense to me. I keep telling her that I feel she is hiding things and until that ends I cannot move forward.


No...its not. Her silence is proof. If she won't come clean, she will hold all of that inside of her until it builds so much resentment and negative emotions she will just cheat on you again. 

And of course it will be your fault b/c "you couldn't get over things and pushed her away"


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Thorburn,

I agree with how you are handling this. If she is ill and on chemo that needs to be the first priority right now. You also are not living with her on a daily basis. That might also be having an impact because she is not facing you on a daily basis. It may be different when she has to wake up and go to bed with you each and every day.

When you are finally ready to tackle this with earnest maybe you should illicit others to help you to "jog her memory." Tell her if she cannot help you to heal by coming clean you will begin contacting everyone who knows her to try to collect information so that you both can put the pieces together. Maybe if she is put in an uncomfortable position with family, friends etc might encourage her to try harder to remember.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

turnera said:


> Yes, but she's also a habitual compulsive liar and someone who cheats on her husband.


I agree with you. Personally I would file. 

I am simply commenting on the possibility that she is truly forgetful due to "Chemo Brain".

I think she is a serial cheater and the things she did to thorburn are very disrespectful and harmful to his long term ability to trust her ever again.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Emerald said:


> Sorry - I didn't know she is on chemo.
> 
> I just wonder how many BS's ever get the entire truth. You know about PTSD. Maybe she has that & blocked it out along with her memory problem.


IMO, very few ever get the entire truth.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

I know your story, and know that you truly love your wife. However, I think she is playing you. I don't think she is doing anything with anyone but you, but I don't think she is being truthful to you and is still more concerned wth her own well being than yours. You have given her every chance, unconditional love and a good ife and continue to do so. You are still getting trickle truth. Memory problems or not, I think she is using that as a darn good excuse, and like a couple of others on here, I think there is a big dealbreaker that she is hiding. Perhaps if she came clean when this all broke, it might have not been a breaker, but after all this time - I think she knows you well and will never come clean about it unless you do something drastic - divorce papers, lie detector test (I'm not sure). Otherwise, if you feel that you can just let the past be the past and know that she is with you now and make that count, you need to let it go. That would be hard when your gut is telling you that there is something else. Gut instincts ae NEVER wrong after D-Day.


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## margrace (Aug 12, 2012)

_I think there is a big dealbreaker that she is hiding.
_
:iagree:


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

So really - either let it go, or tell her that you love her, but her affairs really did a number on you, and for you to fully move past them and know in your head and your heart that she is being truthful, you want her to take a poly - just to humor you so you can finally shut the door on this part of your lives and move on with a fresh start.

If she truly loves you, she will go through with it. If she does not remember (truly), it should reflect that on the poly - that she is telling the truth. She at least owes you that. I knew for me to really move on and be OK with putting the affair behind me, my head and my heart needed to sync up and be saying the same thing. I think yours are still battling it out.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

bfree said:


> Thorburn,
> 
> I agree with how you are handling this. If she is ill and on chemo that needs to be the first priority right now. You also are not living with her on a daily basis. That might also be having an impact because she is not facing you on a daily basis. It may be different when she has to wake up and go to bed with you each and every day.
> 
> When you are finally ready to tackle this with earnest maybe you should illicit others to help you to "jog her memory." Tell her if she cannot help you to heal by coming clean you will begin contacting everyone who knows her to try to collect information so that you both can put the pieces together. Maybe if she is put in an uncomfortable position with family, friends etc might encourage her to try harder to remember.


Whatever happens between you two I hope she recovers


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

I may be way off base here, but...

I was a cheater and I can't remember the details. Then again, I can't remember what I had for dinner last night. I have an uncanny ability to remember numbers, but not names, faces or events.

BUT... you say you know what she did. You say you know when she did it. It sounds more to me that you are using your questioning to claim the moral high ground and forever keep your wife in a defensive mode.

If you know these things, why keep asking. I realize that a lot of people around here say you get trickle truth and that you have a right to ALL the details. But what is the ultimate goal? To be seen by your wife as someone who must relive the details for your satisfaction? To make her once again apologize for what she did? (assuming she has already done that).

I can tell you that this kind of inquisition will wear her down. She may not cheat again but will love you less for doing it.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

LookingForTheSun said:


> I know your story, and know that you truly love your wife. However, I think she is playing you. I don't think she is doing anything with anyone but you, but I don't think she is being truthful to you and is still more concerned wth her own well being than yours. You have given her every chance, unconditional love and a good ife and continue to do so. You are still getting trickle truth. Memory problems or not, I think she is using that as a darn good excuse, and like a couple of others on here, I think there is a big dealbreaker that she is hiding. Perhaps if she came clean when this all broke, it might have not been a breaker, but after all this time - I think she knows you well and will never come clean about it unless you do something drastic - divorce papers, lie detector test (I'm not sure). Otherwise, if you feel that you can just let the past be the past and know that she is with you now and make that count, you need to let it go. That would be hard when your gut is telling you that there is something else. Gut instincts ae NEVER wrong after D-Day.


I agree, not coming clean and other behaviors is causing you distress and is creating unneeded friction. 

Has she read any books about infidelity. They all state that in order for the loyal spouse to heal they need to hear all the details. They need the cheater to apologize over and over. 

If she wants to save the marriage she would comply. It sounds like she is not sure. If she wants to divorce, why waste time?

Why is she withholding anything?

I think it's possible she doesn't remember, but even so, there are other things she is failing to do to make you trust her and feel comfortable.


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## margrace (Aug 12, 2012)

Chris Taylor said:


> I may be way off base here, but...
> 
> I was a cheater and I can't remember the details. Then again, I can't remember what I had for dinner last night. I have an uncanny ability to remember numbers, but not names, faces or events.
> 
> ...


chris, do you believe this is true for situations where the WS has not acknowledged all the As? 

because i caught him, my WS has admitted to one A. i know that there were at least 4 others before that one going back a couple of years, with one of these 4 potentially still around him in some capacity.

he does not necessarily deny this. all he will say is that he has confessed to being unfaithful and making mistakes. his position is that he has told the truth about the one A, and beyond that, he acknowledges nothing. he construes my asking for honesty about the existence of other infidelities as going too far, wanting him to be humiliated, etc.

i feel that i could forgive him -- but somehow it doesn't feel right to not know what happened, or what i am forgiving, or what we are moving on _from._

or does that seem unreasonable to you?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Why would you forgive someone who is STILL lying to you? That person doesn't deserve forgiveness.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Chris Taylor, the point is not to keep punishing her, it's to find out whether she's - finnaly -. ready to stop lying (manioulating), drop all the defenses and commit to the marriage with honesty.
OP already stated she is a cronic lier nad a serial cheater. They reugsweeped the poast times she was caught. Something has to change. For once.
Any other mindset it bassicaly waiting for the next time. To keep enabling this toxic behavior is at this point feeding it.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Acabado said:


> the point is not to keep punishing her, it's to find out whether she's - finnaly -. ready to stop lying (manioulating), drop all the defenses and commit to the marriage with honesty.
> OP already stated she is a cronic lier nad a serial cheater. They reugsweeped the poast times she was caught. Something has to change. For once.
> Any other mindset it bassicaly waiting for the next time. To keep enabling this toxic behavior is at this point feeding it.


Also, if someone is not willing to help do whatever is needed for the hurt spouse to heal, perhaps they are not serious about reconciliation and are in the back of their minds hoping to force a divorce. 

Some people who have affairs, perhaps exit affairs, are often hoping the spouse will divorce them, so that they don't have to. 

Not sure why.....perhaps passive aggressive nature.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Acabado said:


> Sure she remembers, damm well.
> She's an acomplished liar and a serial cheater, she's used to plan her trysts ahead. She's perfectly aware abut the practical things.
> She will always give you the bare minimun info, what she can't deny. As she can always argue I don't remember'' it's what she comes with.
> 
> ...


Totally agreed.

If you get cheated on once, it is her problem. If you get cheated several times and still in R, it is your problem.

You just do not have the guts to let her go. She just does not respect you enough to totally come clean with you, thanks to your gutless.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

loveisforever said:


> Totally agreed.
> 
> If you get cheated on once, it is her problem. If you get cheated several times and still in R, it is your problem.
> 
> You just do not have the guts to let her go. She just does not respect you enough to totally come clean with you, thanks to your gutless.


And you're ignorant. 

Thorburn is a war veteran and has risked his life for our freedom. 

Having said that, I do think he thinks its his job to "fix" her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> I can't remember did you expose the OM to his family?


Yes. To his family, church and employer. His pastor and employer were more concerned about me and reached out to me.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> And you're ignorant.
> 
> Thorburn is a war veteran and has risked his life for our freedom.
> 
> ...


You might be right Bandit.

But I also think that Thoburn should take care of his wife while receiving chemo as long as that makes him feel good about himself.

I also think Thorburn that your wife will never tell you all the truth, that the dates are not important to her but are important to you which means you put significance on them, she does not.

You have come a long way but sooner or later you will have to decide if not knowing everything is a deal breaker or not.

You might say it is but your actions (vacations, new house) show her and us otherwise.

HM64


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Thorburn,

I was thinking more on your situation today. I'm not sure what health issues your wife may be battling but if I were sick enough to need chemo I don't think trying to remember a stressful painful memory would be high on my priority list. Add to that the fact that while she is dealing with this you essentially aren't able to be completely there for her. By arguing with her over email during the week you may actually be appearing weak to her. Its almost like you hammer her when you aren't there and try to have a pleasant weekend when you are there. Its all very dysfunctional it seems. Maybe you should just tell her that you will still need her to fill in the details sometime in the near future but you will let things settle down until she is clearly healthy and you are living together full time. Then don't bring it up again until the time is right. It may also have the added benefit of lowering her shields so that when you do address it once again she may open up more to you.

Once again I'm just brainstorming here.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Don't get sidetracked due to her chemo. She has been on it for 5 years and her chemo will be every eight weeks for the rest of her life. She might live to be a hundred. What she is being treated for is not life threatening but can cause severe disfigurament if not treated with chemo. The after affects of her chemo last a few days and she has been on it for 5 years. Her treatment does not cause memory loss. During her A last year she went off of it without me knowing it and it caused two joints in her one toe to be permanently frozen.

The reason I focused on the dates is that from day one she would not tell me stuff and it made no sense then and it is making even less sense now. Tell me and I will move on. Her not remembering is bull**** to me and to everyone else I have talked with. I think she is hiding something and I told her that (she denies it) and I said if she isn't then just tell me where you were on these dates and I will move on. She says I know (I do) but I just want her to say it and stop saying I don't remember. Just say to me, hubby, on Sept 27th I was at the Motel 6. Instead she says we were not together on September 27th and I have even shown her the proof. This is what I don't get. 

Like some of you said about remembering things from your school days so does my wife. I think she is hiding something.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And she'll continue to do so as long as you present no consequences.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> Don't get sidetracked due to her chemo. She has been on it for 5 years and her chemo will be every eight weeks for the rest of her life. She might live to be a hundred. What she is being treated for is not life threatening but can cause severe disfigurament if not treated with chemo. The after affects of her chemo last a few days and she has been on it for 5 years. Her treatment does not cause memory loss. During her A last year she went off of it without me knowing it and it caused two joints in her one toe to be permanently frozen.
> 
> The reason I focused on the dates is that from day one she would not tell me stuff and it made no sense then and it is making even less sense now. Tell me and I will move on. Her not remembering is bull**** to me and to everyone else I have talked with. I think she is hiding something and I told her that (she denies it) and I said if she isn't then just tell me where you were on these dates and I will move on. She says I know (I do) but I just want her to say it and stop saying I don't remember. Just say to me, hubby, on Sept 27th I was at the Motel 6. Instead she says we were not together on September 27th and I have even shown her the proof. This is what I don't get.
> 
> Like some of you said about remembering things from your school days so does my wife. I think she is hiding something.


Thorburn, good point about the chemo. 

And, she also had the affairs while on chemo. So let's not get sidetracked by it. 

You sound like an excellent counselor and being through all your marital trials and tribulations probably gives you an extra dose of empathy that others with easier paths might not have yet developed. 

Still, as I am sure you know, even a counselor can't fix their own wife. That is why docs are not good at treating family and must seek outside opinions and advice. 

I don't think you appear weak by questioning her when you are away. IMO, this is normal and she should expect it if she has had any decent IC. 

She likely does not like having a freedom infringed upon, it makes it difficult for her to do what she wants to do. 

I believe in trusting your gut. 

When you were innocent and unaware of her affairs it is one thing to be blindly trusting, but now that she has broken trust i am sure that you are keyed in to all the clues suggestive of deception and/or an affair. 

It really has to be tough to be so far away from someone who has betrayed you. 

I was thinking of you all weekend and worrying about you. 

I wish you the best.


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## Disenchanted (Sep 12, 2012)

My worthless 2 cents:

My WW couldn't remember when the date of her last "encounter" was.

Later I found out it was about _a week_ before I asked.

She tells me "I don't want to tell you more than you can handle".


My psychologist says it's a never ending cycle, she feels afraid to talk to me, so I get more scary. If you want truth you need to find a way to make your WS feel safe in telling you. Quite a conundrum.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Thanks for explaining the medical part. You're right, that should be taken out of the equation. I should probably clarify what I meant by appearing weak. What I meant was that questioning her when you are away isn't going to have much impact. Its a heck of a lot easier to dismiss someone via text, email and even phone than it is to do it when you are right in front of them. Therefore I think maybe you put the questions on hold until you are both back living together. When she has to see you each and every day and is sharing your bed it won't be so easy to avoid straight answers. At least that is my thoughts on it.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> Thorburn, good point about the chemo.
> 
> And, she also had the affairs while on chemo. So let's not get sidetracked by it.
> 
> ...


As a counselor I know I can't fix her. I know that she manipulated her IC and it is frustrating that she did not get a good one. By that I mean one who could show her empathy but also show her, her faults and have her take ownership of her problem.

I have a friend who is a doctor. I was an elder in the Presbyterian church and associate pastor and he was a member. A few years ago he killed his teenage son. His son was in pain and was on pain meds from another doctor and was complaining that the meds were not working. So he gave his son another medication that was for another patient for his pain and he died. I would not want to treat my wife but I do know what she needs and I hope she gets the help she needs.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Hey thor old Buddy. How are ya? Hangin in there? sorry I havent read your whole thread, any closer to resolving your living situation? How is the wife? are things going any better?


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## working_together (Oct 16, 2011)

I'll be perfectly honest, I remember most of the details of my affair, I wish I didn't, some of them are quite vivid, and it happened a year and a half ago. I remember all the times we were together, the convo's we had, the sneaking around, the phone calls, and how it all started. For me though, it was the first and only affair, and I had not been with any other man besides my now ex-husband, maybe that played a part. 

It seems like she's just tired of explaining things, and going over the same thing when you know she had an affair, you know the basics, what else do you need from her?? how is this going to help your R??? You need to move forward, or make a decision to end the marriage, sounds like limbo.

good luck


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

working_together said:


> I'll be perfectly honest, I remember most of the details of my affair, I wish I didn't, some of them are quite vivid, and it happened a year and a half ago. I remember all the times we were together, the convo's we had, the sneaking around, the phone calls, and how it all started. For me though, it was the first and only affair, and I had not been with any other man besides my now ex-husband, maybe that played a part.
> 
> It seems like she's just tired of explaining things, and going over the same thing when you know she had an affair, you know the basics, what else do you need from her?? how is this going to help your R??? You need to move forward, or make a decision to end the marriage, sounds like limbo.
> 
> good luck


Good points.

My STBEH tried the "I don't remember bulldokey"

But then he too finally admitted he remembered everything all too vividly. 

During an affair their is a mega adrenaline running through the cheater's bodies when they meet. 

Adrenaline can trick someone to mistake that feeling for love. 

But more importantly adrenaline has the ability to anchor memories. 

So, there is science to back up the fact that the cheater remember ever detail all too vividly, but just don't want to talk about it.

I could often guess when my STBEH was recycling one of those vivid sexual memories because he would get this far away stare in his eyes. 

Likely all cheaters recycle the sexual imagery or feeling if it's an EA and enjoy it.

Who wants to stay in a marriage where the spouse has vivid sexual memories of a the affair partner.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> Hey thor old Buddy. How are ya? Hangin in there? sorry I havent read your whole thread, any closer to resolving your living situation? How is the wife? are things going any better?


Monday is settlement. We spent last evening walking around the house, (we could not get inside) counting windows and figuring out how many curtains we will need, etc. It was fun. I can't believe how far we have come and that I will finally be able to be together. I think this will resolve a lot of my anxiety. Also, she drove quite a distance to do this and had to drive home late at night. And this meeting last night was her suggestion, to meet at the house and have dinner. It did make my day. She


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> Monday is settlement. We spent last evening walking around the house, (we could not get inside) counting windows and figuring out how many curtains we will need, etc. It was fun. I can't believe how far we have come and that I will finally be able to be together. I think this will resolve a lot of my anxiety. Also, she drove quite a distance to do this and had to drive home late at night. And this meeting last night was her suggestion, to meet at the house and have dinner. It did make my day. She


Best news of the day Thorburn. so happy that youre happy.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Thorburn~

I was formerly a disloyal wife myself, and I have to be honest with you : I don't "remember" every date and time of my affair either. Honestly, inside me, I do not WANT to remember any of it!! Also it's been 3 years so it's fading. 

The difference I think though is that I'm not trying to hide it. If my Dear Hubby said, "Where were you on XYZ date in 2009?" I have no idea. I don't remember--it was 2009! Then again he also knows that I don't do well with time and I don't have like a linear memory like that. But if he said "Were you with OM the night after XZY occurred?" then I would be able to remember it by putting together the important event with what I did. In that instance I would be able to recall what happened. 

So given that you've said she already has memory issues, and that she's doing a lot of the other heavy lifting, I would make one suggestion. Let's say you have a receipt for something that shows she was not where she says she was. Instead of saying, "Where were you on Oct. 3rd 2011?" that comes across like you're trying to trap her and no matter what she says you're going to say she's wrong and yell. So instead may I suggest saying "I found a receipt for Oct. 3rd from Xville and you said you were in Ytown, so it looks to me like you were not where you said you were. Can you please tell me the truth of where you were?" 

Then when she says whatever she says (especially if it's something like "Oh boy I don't remember the specific incident but must have been one of the day I was in Ytown with the OM") then say these words: *"Thank you for telling me the truth. I appreciate that you trusted me with that and I'm going to think about what you said."* Memorize that. 

Here's why. EVERY TIME she even possibly acts like she might be telling you the truth, you want to reward her with safety. If you suspect she is lying, don't flip out then and there. That teaches her that "any time he asks me about where I was or a date, he's going to yell at me" so you don't want to teach her that. If you do suspect she's lying or omitting, and you tell her what I said above A) she'll hear that telling you the truth = trusting you and B) she'll learn she can tell you anything and it won't be used as a weapon against her to hurt her. 

Soooooo... just a thought. No I don't think you're being an a$$ because you need to know what you need to know. And she needs deal with some embarrassment for your healing because of her choices. That's just the way it is! But she does also need to feel like she's safe to tell the truth or safe to remember.


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