# 125 Sexual Partners Excessive?



## SaxonMan (Apr 1, 2009)

I would like some opinions about this:
When I first got together with my fiancée, there was a person "on the scene" that she said was just a friend (male). When I asked about this person, who he was, etc..., she told me that he was simply a friend. She talked about us all meeting.
Well, shortly after that I was using her computer and there on the desktop were some logs from instant messenger conversations which proved that he most definitely wasn't just a friend. They had been having sex for over a year. These conversations started from the first night that she met him.

What bothered me about this, apart from her lying to me, was just how practiced and clinical the "arrangement" was made. She had met him for probably an hour that night - among mutual friends, went home, went on to instant messenger, and within literaly three sentences, the arrangement was made that they would start having sex. It was literally as "easy" as that. I must admit, I was shocked at just how clinical and easily that was arranged.

Well, since then, she told me that she had once had a threesome with her friend and her husband as a birthday present to him. Again, I was shocked at how that could be - that she would let her friend's husband have sex with her simply as a birthday present. She didn't even particularly like him.

Anyway, I "shot myself in the foot" with that one because I couldn't help showing surprise, or displeasure about that "incident". Since then, she has been EXTREMELY secretive about anything to do with her past. She will instantly get extremely defensive and angry if ANYTHING from the past is mentioned - no matter how innocent or innocuous.

Since we have been together, there have been a number of phone calls that she has received in front of me that were from guys. These guys were obviously past encounters that keep in contact. She does seem to have quite a few guys that she has slept with that then turn into "friends" that she remains in contact with. To be fair, she has always (in front of me at least) stopped these conversations, let them know that she is with somebody now, and asked them not to call. I don't really have suspicions, or worries about infidelity at this point.

Last night, in the middle of an argument, she said that at a conservative estimate, she had had sex with about 125 different people since she was 14 (she is now a very young 49). Most of her "encounters" or relationships were with people younger than her (the one I found about on instant messenger was twenty years younger than her).
Now, considering that she was married for ten years - and she says that she was faithful - and in another committed relationship for five years, that makes 6.25 people per year, EVERY year since she was fourteen years old. I feel sorry for the 0.25 people 
Given that some years would have been a "bad year", that would mean that some years, she was sleeping with around ten different people per year.
She says that an unspecified number of these people weren't relationships per se, but simply arrangements for sexual gratification.

Now, I'm no spring chicken myself, so understand that everybody has a past, but I must admit that this knowledge doesn't make me very comfortable. I would like at the very least to be told that she is a different person than she was then - and that that person who could engage in sex with virtual strangers so easily is no longer there.
Instead, she defends her actions and bluntly says that "she isn't me" and basically says that there is/was nothing wrong with being like that.

I would like your opinions about this. Am I wrong for feeling uncomfortable about this? Am I wrong in wishing that she would at least admit that how she was in her past was not ideal, and that she isn't like that now? 
She won't give any "help" in that department. Like most things, I simply have to live with it, and she won't be kind in helping me to understand it - and live with it. She simply gets angry, says that I need a virgin, and accuses me of being nosey about her past life. It is her past and nothing to do with me.

When I pointed out to her that, given the law of averages, that means that some years she was sleeping with ten different people in one year, she said: "Well, that's one a month for ten months - and two months off. Is that normal? I don't know."

I'm struggling with this one. On the one hand, I'm a "big boy" and realise that everybody has a past - that it was before me, etc... On the other hand, I have tried to explain that I value her very much - and I hold what what we do in the bedroom as precious. 
I would simply like to think that she also sees it as something special and that she values herself in that way too.
Rightly or wrongly, I don't see her past actions as that of somebody that values the sanctity of her own body - and the sanctity of the sexual act.

I must admit that, on a selfish note, I worry about the chances of infidelity. I mean, usually, many people face the chance, or invitation, to infidelity. Usually, there are two things to get over to be able to do that: first, the betraying of your partner, and secondly, the "awkwardness" or "mechanics" of actually getting round to the act. The second issue is seemingly not there because it is so easy to do. 
Literally, the conversation on the instant messenger was: 
"You liked what you saw?"
"Yes, I did"
"I liked what I saw"
"OK, let's get it on."

I realise that beating myself up over how easy that was is a little absurd, but it just doesn't make me comfortable.

What do you think?


----------



## marina72 (Dec 29, 2008)

well, this is a hard one.

Yes, you have the right to feel as you do. And yes, it would probably make me a bit uncomfortable too. And yes, that does seem like a lot of men, and it seems as though sex is a Very casual thing to her. 

As you know, the main danger of sexual encounters of this nature, is the risk of STD's and Hiv... then again, you can get an STD from your very first sexual encounter, but obviously, the risk goes up, the more partners you have. I hope she always used protection... but from 14 to 49, it is doubtful that every single time , she used it.

Does she seem a bit callous? Yes,,, to me she does. However,,, as you pointed out, everyone has a past, and her views on sex are not necessarily wrong, so much as they are very different from yours, and very open.

I am 35 soon,, and my total man count is only 6 , two of them were my husbands.... for my entire life. Does that make me better than her? nope... just makes me a bit more conservative on who I give my body to.

I would be concerned about her constantly getting calls from other men, that she used to date, or have sexual relations with, only because if she truly is this open about sex, and sees it as a casual thing... then there is always the possibility that she wont' take fidelity in marriage very seriously.

Have you considered the possibility that she's a sex addict? she would have to work Very hard to fit that many men into her schedule, as you pointed out.

The bottom line is, if you can't handle her past, and it makes you that uncomfortable. It will most likely cause a great deal of problems for you both down the road. So, unless you are prepared to let it lie,,, then don't marry her. You don't want to do something you will end up regretting later.

This is who she is/was... so, it's either accept it , or move on. And you should not feel guilty if it's more than you can handle, if it makes you this uncomfortable, then perhaps she is not the one for you? 

If on the other hand, you can look past, her past, and just be with her for who she is now.... and feel you can trust that she will be faithful to you, then I'd say you'll have to find peace with it, and let it go.

Don't feel badly for having the feelings you do. You're who you are, and shouldn't apologize for feeling this way. Please make sure you can be with someone who has such a different view on sexual issues, before you marry. You wouldn't want it to cause problems once you're already married.

Good luck, update us...


----------



## revitalizedhusband (Feb 9, 2009)

I'd get a STD test for both of you and then move on.

Is it "ideal"? Of course not, but at 50 years old come on, did you expect a virgin? 

I'm as conservative as maybe anyone when it comes to sex, especially outside of marriage, but I also live in the real world too. I would insist on a STD test for both of you and then move on.

It you are both clean, have a fun relationship, if not then move on to someone else.


----------



## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

SaxonMan said:


> She won't give any "help" in that department. Like most things, I simply have to live with it, and she won't be kind in helping me to understand it - and live with it. She simply gets angry



This speaks volumes about her as a partner in that she is unwilling to help you with a concern. Past behaviors or not, this is the biggest flag I see. What ever you do, before you have any more sex with her be sure she agrees to and gets tested for STDs. 125 partners is a significant resume'.


----------



## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

To answer your original query, if it were me, I would not get involved in a partner who had that many previous lovers. While I have been with several women, with the exception of one, they were all women that I had some kind of emotional relationship with. One night stands were just never my thing. My wife has had many more partners than me but they too were men she had a relationship with and that has never bothered me. Men or women who have had that many previous sex partners are typically trying to deal with some sort of emotional issue or poor self esteem. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## SaxonMan (Apr 1, 2009)

Amplexor said:


> Men or women who have had that many previous sex partners are typically trying to deal with some sort of emotional issue or poor self esteem. Just my 2 cents.


Yes. That is what I think also. There has definitely been abuse in her past. Her first real sexual experience (apart from molestation by her family members) was when her brother was paid to lock her out of the home one night so that his friends could rape her.

The trouble is, I would love to help, or at least just "be there" for her in dealing with these issues, but she is way too closed for that. She maintains that her childhood was quite alright - and that there are no issues from that. I can't push that issue, but I do have a problem with the past being such a "no go" area.

That's what I'm really trying to get at. I can understand that people's past has a massive impact on the way that they run their lives later on. 
I can see a person that is massively impacted by her childhood experiences (see my other posts). "Our" counsellor can see the same (so far, only I have been to the counsellor. She has an appointment at the end of the week).

Unfortunately, I don't hold out much hope for the counselling to work. I think that she will get angry and run away long before she will allow herself to be helped by it.

It's the eleventh hour for us - and I'm fast running out of ideas.


----------



## martino (May 12, 2008)

Saxon,

Hi we've talked before. Yes 125 is excessive at any age, (unless you are a porn star) plus that IM you posted was disturbing. Not trying to bring you down but you've got a long uphill battle here. Depends how much you really want her in the end. You are more willing to put in the time and effort than she is. That is never ever easy. Good luck.


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

I think you already know she can't be faithful to you. She has admitted to screwing a "friend" while with you ni an exclusive relationship.

The question is, are you number 124 or 125 and who is 126+?

as a single woman who likes casual sex, your lady could easily have sex with six men in a month, let alone a year.

if i were you, I'd make it a prerequisite that you two go to couples counseling prior to any marriage and address your concerns.

if it were me? i would not marry her, she has more than the usual baggage and refuses to work through it. You want a wife, not a fixit project. You want to be a husband, not her shrink.


----------



## martino (May 12, 2008)

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:


----------



## SaxonMan (Apr 1, 2009)

michzz said:


> I think you already know she can't be faithful to you. She has admitted to screwing a "friend" while with you ni an exclusive relationship.


Thanks for your reply michzz, but I think you misunderstood my post. She wasn't screwing this guy while she was with me. It had finished before me. The only issue with that particular one was that she was telling me that he was just a friend - and that nothing ever happened between them.

I appreciate your comments though.


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

SaxonMan said:


> Thanks for your reply michzz, but I think you misunderstood my post. She wasn't screwing this guy while she was with me. It had finished before me. The only issue with that particular one was that she was telling me that he was just a friend - and that nothing ever happened between them.
> 
> I appreciate your comments though.


So she says.


----------



## SaxonMan (Apr 1, 2009)

michzz said:


> if it were me? i would not marry her, she has more than the usual baggage and refuses to work through it. You want a wife, not a fixit project. You want to be a husband, not her shrink.


You're right. I do. My (our) counsellor seems to be more concerned with why I am still with this woman. She says she's fascinated at why I keep "plugging away" at it.
She's also concerned that this whole process may, to use her own words: "damage my soul".

I guess I'm nothing if not a tryer.


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

i agree with your counselor.

BTW, how did you arrive at that 125 people on her list? Seems kind of odd that she could even remember every single person she had sex with with those kinds of numbers.

I think it was a random large number she felt she had to tell you something.


----------



## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

Saxon,

Apart from the sexual past, I assume you like her and that other parts of the relationship work or you won't have gotten this far. She obviously has a non traditional view of sex for a female and has been willing to act on it. I'm not sure that that, in and of itself, should be held against her. She was honest, you were shocked now she's defensive..........no mystery here. If things are otherwise good you might want to look at the fact that of all the men in her life she has picked you. If there are other issues then her past sex life that is something else.


----------



## SaxonMan (Apr 1, 2009)

michzz said:


> i agree with your counselor.
> 
> BTW, how did you arrive at that 125 people on her list? Seems kind of odd that she could even remember every single person she had sex with with those kinds of numbers.
> 
> I think it was a random large number she felt she had to tell you something.


Lol. That number was what she volunteered "out of the blue" last night. It was an estimate?

It came out of nowhere in the middle of an argument, which was about the usual thing. The past was mentioned.

For instance, the other evening, we were mowing the lawn. While operating the mower, I asked her where she got the mower from, was it a Cragslist bargain.
"Oh, "D" let me have it for $50".
"Oh, OK. Who's D?"
And there we were into another argument. 

"What you want to know? Sexual positions? Star sign? Size of ****?"..... Sheesh.


----------



## SaxonMan (Apr 1, 2009)

Shoto1984. Thanks. I wholeheartedly agree with you. I know I can get past her past. Obviously, I can't change it. 
In an ideal world, I'd like to get some kind of agreement out of her that being quite so casual about sex is not the ideal way to go - and that she thinks differently now. She won't do that though.

Marina72 put it very well. I think I'm concerned that because sex is such a casual thing to her, she may not put the proper emphasis/value on fidelity in marriage. 
It's also quite true that I have a problem equating how much I value her, and how much I value sex with her, with how much she seems to value herself.

However, there are indeed other issues other than her past sex life.


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

SaxonMan said:


> "What you want to know? Sexual positions? Star sign? Size of ****?"..... Sheesh.


That is a poor attempt at humor for such a serious thing you face.

All you should require is the truth out of her. i agree, no point to whipping her for her past. But you do need to feel comfortable that her past is indeed past.


----------



## reidqa (Mar 25, 2009)

Why not think of it as marrying a porn star there is now more than 500,000 with a history in this business.

Now imagine marrying one of these women, you up against some stiff competition.


----------



## BIGJ (Mar 12, 2009)

*125 Sexual Partners Excessive? *

Ummm...you think?:scratchhead:

Jesus! he/she's given more rides than Grayhound. You're lucky your stuff hasn't fallen off, he/she's probably filled w/diseases.

IMHO, that's a *****.


----------



## Tim (Mar 24, 2009)

....You need to leave. 

You also have a problem with yourself. You are passive. You are not assertive. I'm going to bet you are over nurturing...You lack self respect and you put yourself second over others. 

Tell me. How did you two meet? How did you guys start going out? Was she the one showing interest and being more direct?

Listen, I'm going to cut to the chase. She will cheat on you. Period. Your trusting the wrong person. I understand she is good in bed, but you need to let that go. Do you see that its actually shallow? You say what happens in the bedroom is precious, well I thought the same, and guess what? You hold sex waaaay to high. Its what I did. Your actually confusing sex and love, its not the same thing at all. 

If you dont change yourself, you will continue to attract women like this. I'm willing to bet there is something wrong with her...there are a lot of red flags. She follows a pattern, and the thing about the younger men speaks loudly of her maturity level....I can say more about that.

Point is, theres NO point in analysing her. This bothers you, respect your opinion and leave, if not run. Its only going to get worse.


----------



## Unit4 (Mar 15, 2009)

125 partners didn't grab me as much as this:



SaxonMan said:


> Her first real sexual experience (apart from molestation by her family members) was when her brother was paid to lock her out of the home one night so that his friends could rape her.


Holy sh%t, Batman. I'm not one to buy into everything clinicians say, but they'd have a field day with this. Irrepairable damage to self-esteem comes from events like that. Sex addiction follows. Again, I'm towing the party line and probably echoing what you councilor may be thinking, or trying to convey to you.

You probably do have the nurture bug. People like this can supposedly turn the page, but I see no remorse or admission over the magnitude of the issue. Without a good dose of that, you are likely to amount to no more than 125th of her life's experience.


----------



## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

SaxonMan-

This woman might make a very interesting date, but is she really marriage material? It's not the number of lovers she's had that gets me, it's the fact that she lied to you about her "friend". Don't forget she is probably on her best behaviour at the moment. Can you imagine what things will be like when she no longer has to put in a good appearance.


----------



## MichelleVasquez (Apr 4, 2009)

The two of you have very different values when it comes to sexual behavior. Is this a deal breaker? It could be. I would encourage you to carefully examine your relationship requirements and see if hers are compatible with yours.

I'll give you some examples of my relationship requirements: fidelity and monogamy, integrity (living by the the standards you say you believe in, whatever they are; doing what you say you'll do), ability and willingness to communicate about tough topics, honesty (willingness to be transparent and open), and maturity. Of course, passion and chemistry are also important requirements I have for my relationship to work.

I have given you just a short list of requirements. Most people have between 8 and 12 requirements. Without these, my relationship would not work. A great book for sorting out your values and creating your list of relationship requirements is David Steele's book _Concious Dating_. Another is Barbara de Angelis's book, _Are You the One for Me?_

If you believe you can be helpful to your fiancee, Laura Davis wrote a book called _Allies in Healing_. However, from what you write, my fear is that you want to help her more than she wants to be helped.

Please define your requirements before you commit to marrying. You want to be her husband, not her therapist or caretaker.

I wish you the best, Michelle


----------



## reidqa (Mar 25, 2009)

Michelle,

Very well posted, this post could be he is marrying a woman with 125,000,000 dollars and cannot live to her standards because she demands the best. Why her use of money is so casual.


----------



## 1nurse (Jan 21, 2009)

Ask yourself a couple of questions, can I trust her and do I deserve better. If you're really honest with yourself you'll see this relationship for what it is. You need to break off the engagement and move on to someone who frankly hasn't been the town bicycle. Any person with this many sexual partners screams poor self esteem and unhealthy emotional stability. Healthy mature adults don't sleep with this many people. They look for mature, emotional stable healthy people they can have a bond with, someone they can grow old with. She sounds like she has some baggage and sticking around will only cause you grief and misery. Leaving at first may be hard, but I truly think there is someone better for you. Be true to yourself and get out now. I am tired of people making poor life choices and then wonder why the hell their miserable. Well duh!


----------



## Jooky (Apr 17, 2009)

Everyone has their pasts, and the fact that she seems to be ashamed of hers indicates to me that she wouldn't want to repeat those days. She likely had her reasons, maybe involved with insecurity or self-esteem or self-gratification, but haven't these resolved by now? 

The past is the past. Beating up on someone today for things unrelated to you that they did yesterday is a good way to get someone pissed at you. And I think they'd deserve to be pissed. You're not married yet? Keep picking at who she used to be and you won't be married.

And, in my opinion, 125 is just a number. And you were/are the most important one -- the last one. Right?

Good luck.


----------



## MsLady (Dec 1, 2008)

You need to leave. She's seriously damaged goods. Not because of her number of sexual partners, but because of the way she handles her emotional baggage. She will cheat on you. And she will drain you emotionally.

You are either addicted to being the nurturer and hero, or addicted to the good sex ... or both. Neither one a good basis for a long-term healthy marriage. 

Run!


----------



## Oneday (Apr 21, 2009)

MT mentioned the fact that she lied to you about the "friend". I think that is an issue to address more so than the number of people she slept with. While I agree that 125 for me personally is excessive, everyone has a different attitute when it comes to sexual partners. I do not know how many partners my fiancee has had and he doesn't know my count. It is the past and we are committed to each other - the past will only haunt your future. Maybe she has committment issues and prefers one night stands? If thats the case, she left the bar with roughly one guy a month, had sex and goodbye. Does that alone mean she will cheat? Not entirely true. I have had one night stands before and no matter how rocky my relationship is, I don't cheat. I would be wary of the phone calls and computer use (but you mentioned that she is telling these callers that she is in a relationship) but if she is loving and treats you in a way that makes you happy, you could accept her past as the past and move beyond it. Does she have underlying emotional issues? Almost definately, but don't we all to some degree?


----------



## Tim (Mar 24, 2009)

Well I think he needs to respect himself before he respects her. He should never put himself in the backseat in order to understand someone else's point of view.

1. He hold sex as precious. She doesn't, its something that is easy to give and take.

2. He is bothered by the number of sexual partner's she's had. She is not.

3. He doesnt like her chatting with younger men and especially the context which she chats in, and it bothers her that she had to hide it. 

He is also struggling with trying to trust her due to the points made above. This is what it all breaks down to!

He needs to set boundries, not just so others wont cross it, but so that he can know where he wont tread. Right now, he's treading in country he's not comfortable in...its only going to lead to frustration if this continues. 

After that...then he can try to understand others....but he needs to take care of him first.


----------



## JDPreacher (Feb 27, 2009)

Okay, so she is a liar and a ***** and the only thing you're concerned with is the liar part? Yeah, I'm digging that, go ahead, live happily ever after and by after I mean 126, 127, 128, 129, 130 and keep in mind you'll probably be in the mix somewhere, off and on, just like the lights.

Blessed Be,
Preacher


----------



## SaxonMan (Apr 1, 2009)

Just popping in to thank everybody for your posts. I really appreciate them. They're making a lot of sense.

I'm now at the point where I'm starting to feel bad about myself because, to some degree, I've "checked out" of the relationship. Deep down, I don't think it's got a future.

Although we've had quite an easy time of it for the last week or so, the underlying issues are still there - just not being discussed.
If I'm honest with myself: yes, the number of partners - or more particularly - her casual approach to sex in the past does bother me. But, I can certainly live with her past. I am now.

What worries me the most is the concern that her "casual" attitude to sex could translate to an easier route to infidelity in the future. And fidelity is a MAJOR requirement for me.

She is bringing up the subject of setting a date for the wedding quite a lot now, and it's beginning to look like I'm studiously avoiding the subject. Sooner or later she's going to ask outright why I'm avoiding it.

She agreed to go to counselling and Friday is her second visit. I haven't asked anything about her sessions.
I think I'm waiting for the outcome of the counselling. If it seems as if she's willing to address the underlying issues she has that, I believe, has prompted this behaviour (and more importantly the other issues she has about emotional intimacy), then we may have a future. We'll see...

To the people that stated that I have issues because I'm being "nurturing", "passive", etc.., I think you have a point.
When I visited the counsellor, she said that she was "fascinated" at why I'm still "plugging away" at the relationship. That is something that I have to address. I certainly will not go through with the marriage until I am comfortable.

Michelle: Great post. Your list of requirements could have been written for me. 

Anyway, thanks again to everybody. All your opinions are being taken on board. Watch this space...


----------



## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

IF you don't trust her, don't marry her. 

If you can't get over her past, don't marry her. 

If you love her, get over it and to helll with what the rest of the world thinks 

I would think you would be happy that she trusted YOU enough to share her past with you. Look what you are doing with that trust. You are belittling her, judging her, and finding her wanting. No wonder she started being secretive. Duh. 

I would think you would be happy to have such an experienced lover. If you are so convinced she won't be true to you, then talk to her about it. 

If you can't give her your love and trust and honesty, you have no business marrying her. Try asking her how many men have proposed to her. I'll bet you might be surprised. Then ask yourself and her why she said yes to YOU? What do you have that all these other men didn't? You might find solace in the fact that of all these men, she chose you.

All the counseling in the world won't fix the trust between you two. Show her this post. All of it. Talk to her about it. Tell her how you feel. Tell her your concerns and worries and fears. See what she says. But at least you will have the chance to be open with each other.

You breast beat about her secretive nature and honesty, but how honest are you if you don't show her this post?


----------



## SaxonMan (Apr 1, 2009)

snix11 said:


> I would think you would be happy that she trusted YOU enough to share her past with you. Look what you are doing with that trust. You are belittling her, judging her, and finding her wanting. *No wonder she started being secretive. Duh. *


Wrong. She started this relationship by lying (see the part about the "friend"). 
Now, I'm not going to hold that against her for ever, but it's a convenient excuse to say: "I told you something and you didn't take it well. Therefore, I'll never tell you anything again."
She started out being secretive. I didn't cause that.


----------



## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

I'm confused, you said 

that she said was just a friend (male). When I asked about this person, who he was, etc..., she told me that he was simply a friend. She talked about us all meeting.

ok. so he used to be a lover and then he was a friend. once she was exclusive with you she no longer had sex with him, right? 

Did she or did she not cheat on you with this guy?


----------



## SaxonMan (Apr 1, 2009)

Nothing to be confused about. If she had cheated this conversation wouldn't be taking place.

You were implying that she is being secretive *because *I abused her trust about telling me something. 
I'm saying that she started out secretive - and a prime example of that was her telling me that this person was just a friend and that there had never been anything between them, when she had actually been bedding him for a year. I had to find that out for myself.

When you start off a relationship with a lie, and it's compounded by making it plain that anything to do with the past - in any way - is "off the table" for discussion, it's not going to make a person that comfortable.


----------



## martino (May 12, 2008)

Saxon,

Consider my advice, 1 year minimum until you work through all of her issues. Is she bi-polar are any DSM diagnosed disorders?


----------



## SaxonMan (Apr 1, 2009)

martino said:


> Saxon,
> 
> Consider my advice, 1 year minimum until you work through all of her issues. Is she bi-polar are any DSM diagnosed disorders?


Hi Martino. Thanks. I do, and will, consider your advice.
I don't know about any of the issues/disorders you mentioned. 
I have been very careful not to ask any questions about her counselling. She may, or may not, care to discuss it with me in time, but I know better than to "pry" into something so personal.

I'll feel more comfortable discussing these things in front of the counsellor because I'm hoping that she won't be allowed to get angry and so defensive when anything "uncomfortable" to her is mentioned - and dialogue may result.


All I have asked is that she sticks with it long enough for the counsellor to ask that she sees us both together.


----------



## Tim (Mar 24, 2009)

How long have you two been going out?

Ok, so I want to tell you after 6 years of living with a liar and an excellent actress...I have developed a little bit of a spider sense. Let me share with you....

My spider senses are tingling.
Listen, I speak from experience. I too waited for the counselling sessions to pan out. Turns out she was socializing, and the therapist finally told her to scram after many many months.
Now she's on therapist #4 one year later. These types of people are about show. My wife likes to show now (after she ****ed up several times) that she is taking care of business by going to counselling...well she doesnt take any of the advice they give and she just shoots the bull with them. It goes no where....meanwhile she'd come home and make demands of me...like wanting a baby.

My wife too rushed me into marriage. I made it clear from the very beginning that I would not marry a woman until we have been seriously dating for 5 years. That was my personal belief...5 years.

Anyways, 2 years into it we started ring shopping. Now I thought, hmm, how nice, this girl is committed to the long term. Well, we didnt shop for long! 'Cause she bought herself the darn ring! 

Then when her bday came up she threw such a fit because I didnt propose to her on her bday. I got mad and took a walk. When I calmed down, I came back, feeling guilty as hell.

Well stupid, eager to please, nurturing, passive, and codependent me (aka, you, lol) pulled out the ring and proposed. Less than 1year later we married.

Talk about rushing. 

She is also promiscous and I have no idea how many people she has been with. She claims, only me. What a joke.

She is also an office ****, for lack of a better term. Interesting how she makes almos $60,000 as a receptionist and was spared layoff despite corporate's suggestion to let her go.

Respect yourself. There are better people out there, yet you feel guilty if you leave. You need to love yourself. I wouldnt wish your situation on anyone...maybe you should stop trying to fix things because I gaurantee you can't fix anyone.


----------



## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

SaxonMan said:


> and a prime example of that was her telling me that this person was just a friend and that there had never been anything between them,


Your original post didn't make it clear - _did she actually SAY there had been NOTHING between them before _or did you just assume that since she said they were only friends now?

The way you worded the post, she never did say that there had been nothing between them before, but described the relationship as it was now.

How did she react when you told her that you were hurt that she lied to you about him? How did she react when you told her you thought she was cheating on you?

Does she know how you feel about this? Does she know your fears? Have you been honest with her about your feelings or are you *CHEATING *on her by being secretive and not showing her these posts?

Emotional cheating (not showing her how you feel) is still cheating.
Lying to her about you not being worried is still lying
Not confronting her about your fears and allowing them to grow and ruin your relationship is dishonest. 

Are you sure you want to be a dishonest, lying cheat?

You are putting yourself on some high moral ground that you don't deserve to be on. It's not the number of partners you should be worried about, it's your own reactions and behavior that show you are not honest enough to marry anyone.

If you don't trust the girl, tell her and let her find someone who will really love her, cherish her and treat her like someone who deserves love rather than sneaking around behind her back posting nasty things about her and having negative thoughts about her.

If you are not sure about the relationship, tell her. At least you can TRY to be honest.

Tell her you want to go to counseling together, since you obviously do. 

If you plan on being married, NOTHING is too personal not to share, including her talks with her counselor. Either you want to be intimate and loving with this woman or just be paranoid about what might happen. You seem to be getting a thrill out of the people here preying one your fears of possible infidelity. Is that the person you want to be?


----------



## SaxonMan (Apr 1, 2009)

snix, you seem to have embarked on a one-person tirade against me, but the facts are all there in my previous posts.


snix11 said:


> Your original post didn't make it clear - did she actually SAY there had been NOTHING between them before or did you just assume that since she said they were only friends now?


Again, yes, she did actually SAY that there had been nothing going on between them. I asked outright at the time. She said that they were just friends. She said that she had even met his girlfriend and parents. She talked about us all meeting. Even as she was saying it all, I knew that she was lying. This was what prompted me to delve deeper to find the truth.



> How did she react when you told her that you were hurt that she lied to you about him? How did she react when you told her you thought she was cheating on you?
> 
> Does she know how you feel about this? Does she know your fears? Have you been honest with her about your feelings or are you CHEATING on her by being secretive and not showing her these posts?
> Emotional cheating (not showing her how you feel) is still cheating.
> ...


Wow. So much to address here. I don't understand where you're getting the "thought she was cheating on me" thing. I don't. I wouldn't be with her if I though she was. 

I think we have different views of what emotional cheating is. My understanding is that emotional cheating is having a relationship with a third party that is not sexual. Forgive me, but that's definitely not what's going on here!

If having communication with others without telling her is "emotional cheating" then would her making plans to have a four day trip with "the girls" to Vegas and not telling me about it count as that? Would the planned weekend trip to the coast with "the girls" also come under that heading? Both of these things I have knowledge of, yet she's never mentioned a word to me about them.

But to address the question about whether I have made my feelings clear, if you had read my other posts, you would know that the REAL problem with this relationship is that we can't have a calm, rational talk about anything. I am not allowed to speak of my feelings or fears. She immediately assumes the posture of defence and gets angry. She'll do whatever it takes - including bringing up completely tangential subjects to continue in "argument mode" rather than calmly discuss the issues at hand. She is the master of diverting the "conversation".

Now, as to me being a "dishonest, lying cheat" by posting on here, I would have thought that the reason a lot of people turn - in desperation - to a forum such as this is that they have tried unsuccessfully to discuss their problems with their other half.
When that doesn't work they tend to turn to the opinions of others, sometimes for no other reason that to get a "sanity check" that they're not seeing the issue in a completely wrong light.

As, I would imagine, the great majority of people posting on here are doing it without their partner's knowledge, by your measure are they all "dishonest, lying cheats"? 
I like to think that they're simply good people suffering with their relationship and reaching out to others for solace, opinions and a reality check.



> If you plan on being married, NOTHING is too personal not to share, including her talks with her counselor. Either you want to be intimate and loving with this woman or just be paranoid about what might happen.


I would LOVE to share her talks with the counsellor. I have learnt that that would be a mistake. She will either choose to share that with me, or she won't. I doubt she will. If I was to bring the subject up, she would get very defensive and be angry that I'm prying. 
I'm not just making an assumption about that. I have learnt the hard way that trying to talk about things like that will get a very negative reaction.I have tried so many times - and in so many ways. Hence turning IN DESPERATION, to this forum.



> You seem to be getting a thrill out of the people here preying one your fears of possible infidelity. Is that the person you want to be?


A thrill? A THRILL? A person comes to a place such as this, and voices their innermost feelings and problems that they are experiencing; taking the desperate measure of turning to strangers for advice and possible support, and you put it down as thrill seeking!?
Thank you for your understanding.


----------



## 1nurse (Jan 21, 2009)

I can guarantee you if you marry this woman you will be miserable or divorced. It's hard to hear negative things about a person we love or have a deep attachment to but you deserve better. There are WAY too many red flags here. A healthy stable person shouldn't be this much effort, turmoil and fighting to keep it going. I think you're in denial about her and maybe some past bad relationships you've been in? Has this been a repeat pattern for you? Good luck. I know you're going to need it.


----------



## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

Saxon man - thanks for clearing up some things. 

If she did lie to you about the affair then you have every reason to be paranoid. 

It's obvious she doesn't feel comfortable being open and honest with you. 

I totally understand the whole tangent to avoid the subject thing. Just keep quiet and then bring it back to the subject. If she still won't talk about it, ask her if she'd rather write about it, or chat on line with you. Let her know (even in a letter perhaps) what you want, need and expect from her. In a letter she can't tangent 

I think you misunderstood me. I don't think you are being dishonest by posting on here, I think you are silly for complaining about her being secretive and dishonest if you don't share with her what you are worried about. Whether it's showing her this post or sharing your fears in a letter, you need to start communicating with HER.

My partner knows where and when I post, has all the passwords for everything I own. I don't force it down his throat, but neither do I try and hide it from him. If he asks, I tell him

Since she doesn't seem to hear you very well when you try and talk, write her a letter. Perhaps post it here and get some feedback before you send it? 

Outline your fears, worries, what you know and don't know. What you expect from her and what you are willing to give if you decide to be married or continue the relationship. 

You need to decide for yourself what you are willing to live with and then find some way to communicate this to her. Skywriting perhaps? lol

Nicely and lovingly set limits. Focus on what is right in your relationship. Let her know that you want to be open and honest about everything with her (your giving) and tell her that you NEED her to do the same for this to work. Start the conversation with five compliments or things you love about her. Use I statements. Stay calm no matter what she does. You be the rock, let her wail and flail if she needs to. I assure you (from having to be the rock many times before) that you will come out of that conversation stronger, more centered and knowing what you need to do next 

You are welcome for my understanding


----------



## SaxonMan (Apr 1, 2009)

Thanks 1Nurse. Of course, deep down, I know that you - and the others that have said the same thing, are right. I know that it would be a huge mistake to marry this lady without some massive changes going on. 
Deep down, I also know that it's almost a certainty that those changes won't happen. For many months now, I've known that it's a case of "when", not "if" for us. It's a shame.



> I think you're in denial about her and maybe some past bad relationships you've been in? Has this been a repeat pattern for you?


You could well be right about the denial thing. I have to question exactly why I am staying when it's so obvious there are SOOOOOO many fundamental things completely wrong with the relationship. I think I'm just being "chicken" and playing the hurt of staying against the hurt of leaving. Maybe in some way, I'm waiting for it to get so bad that leaving is actually an easier option than staying. I don't know. It's needs more self-analysis.

You asked if this has been a repeat pattern for me. I can give an unequivocal NO.
This has been the first time I have experienced somebody so hard, emotionally unkind and emotionally unavailable. It's quite an eye-opener for me, and quite disturbing. 
At times it makes me question whether I'm the strange one - being so affectionate and giving. Despite it all, I can answer myself: no, I'm not. My(our) counsellor agrees. 
The counsellor said that she sees women all day long that would love to be with someone like me - someone emotionally available, giving and caring. (I didn't quote that out of conceit - just makes me feel better to have a "sanity check") - and I'm losing my self-esteem at an alarming rate!

My previous long-term relationship (my previous marriage) was in many ways the polar opposite of this. She was an extremely kind, warm, giving person. I never once felt unfulfilled emotionally, or in the slightest bit unsure/suspicious/insecure. The marriage ended mostly due to extreme hardship (a murder in the family), and the fact that I had major issues with a step-child. I freely take 99.9% of the blame for the failure of that relationship. We were there for each other. We were the best of friends. It was an extremely amicable break up. Almost too amicable as years later she is still, sadly, suffering from the break up and wishing to try again.

Thanks for your post. It makes a lot of sense.


----------



## SaxonMan (Apr 1, 2009)

Thanks Snix. Sorry if I came off a little defensive.

I like your idea about writing things down. I have actually been doing this for some time. I've just read them over and I see the difference between what you're saying (the "I" statements), and what I've been putting down. They read as a list of complaints - with some "I" statements thrown in there. To be honest, I never had any intention of her reading them, but, once, in desperation, I sent them to her. She has never once acknowledged, or responded to the things contained in there.
It seems that writing them down just gives her a reason to ignore them (she doesn't have the pressure of me actually there trying to discuss it - so she doesn't have to respond).

Trying face-to-face, or online, just ends in the tangential thing and an argument. I KNOW she defaults to argument and combative behaviour as a way to avoid addressing the issues. I have no idea whether she realises that herself. Of course, I can't get an answer to that question. She'll do anything to avoid that kind of talk (usually by yelling at me: "Stop analysing me! I'm not your f'ing science project!")

The bottom line about her personality is that she absolutely refuses to give any positive affirmation. 
Now, I realise that it isn't her job to "pander" to me, or make up for any lack of self-esteem she thinks I may have, but when you're living daily with ZERO positive reinforcement (yet at the same time taking "barbs" from hurtful things she says), even the most self-assured person is going to start feeling a little insecure.

She will freely tell me she loves me (although she did once ask: "Isn't once enough? Do I have to KEEP on telling you?"). She keeps pushing the subject of getting married. Last night, as we were going to sleep, she said to me: "I've got a good one."
That is about as far as she goes with saying "nice things". Notice the way that last one is put? "*I've*" got a good one - not "*You're* a good one". Lol. That may be me over-analysing that particular one. 

If I ever show any weakness, or need of some affirmation, she will absolutely refuse to give it. I feel that she would rather die than do what she (I assume) sees as "pandering to someone's weakness" in any way.

This morning (and I'm not particularly proud of this), I ran a little "experiment". I threw all reticence about ego out of the window and pushed a particular subject just to see how much pushing she would take before she would give me any kind of affirmation:
I am quite happy with our sex life. I see no problems with it. I was assuming that she doesn't either (of course, I have to assume - because she would never say).
Some time back, we had what I thought was a particularly great night. The next day, while driving in the car, I made the mistake of saying something along the lines of: "I really enjoyed last night - it was great."
She replied: "Meh, we could do better."
"Huh?", I replied. "What do you mean we could do better?"
"Well, I was thinking that if I worked out more, I'd have more stamina."
"Um, I didn't realise it was an Olympic sport. Didn't realise we'd have to train for it." was my sarcastic (and hurt) reply.

Anyway, back to my little "experiment": This morning, while talking in instant messenger, I purposely played the "fishing for affirmation game" to see just how far it would go.
As the subject of sex came up, I said: "I'm not sure that I 'do it' for you. I worry that I'm too old for you." (This was in reference to the fact that all her previous lovers have been much younger than her - and she's four years older than me.
Of course, I knew that this would immediately elicit the response of refusal to assure me or "put me right" about it.
Well, the "conversation" went on with her avoiding the subject, getting angry, going off on tangents, etc... as I repeatedly "fished" for some affirmation about this - repeating the statement - and changing the "I worry that" to "I'm sorry that".
I pushed, and pushed and pushed to the point of it getting really preposterous as I played the "fishing for affirmation" game.
She completely refused to give me even the slightest hint of affirmation about my "worries". That is what I expected, and it was interesting to see how much she would be cornered while refusing to be kind.

Now, I realise that that was a childish "experiment" to run. The thing is that I'm getting to the point that I just don't care any more, so can step outside of the situation somewhat and play these games. I know it isn't helping any, but, hell, I ran out of ideas long ago.
Incidentally, I actually don't have such worries about our sex life. I'm quite secure in that respect - certainly not conceited, but secure enough not to worry about it.

When I specifically stated that it was unfair of her to let me think those things, and to not give me any assurance or information one way or the other, her response was: "Life's a ***** - and then you die."

Oh well... Communication ain't our thing.


----------



## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

hmmm

I also have a man who acts very much like she does.

try this instead:

What do you think could improve our sex life? 
If she says working out to improve HER stamina say, great.. when do you want to practice so I can see how your stamina is doing? and grin...

and yes, i'm done picking on you for now


----------



## 1nurse (Jan 21, 2009)

You mentioned your councellor said you were fundamentally a really nice guy most women would love to be with. If this isn't a repeat pattern for you being with a unstable, deceitful person than it may be a case of "damsel in distress" for you. I find nice guys want to rescue and help women whom at the time seem nice but victimized. Only problem is you wind up getting a "distressed damsel" Women like this always have a crisis, problem or drama about something which gets old after awhile. Or maybe I'm just deluded and she just isn't he one for you. :scratchhead: I'm sure deep down she isn't a rotten, evil person. You just need to tell her thanks for the good times but I need to leave and start fresh. When or if you do it it's up to you. It's your life nobody else's. I find adults gage opinions and then make up their own minds. Either way, you have some hard decisions to make. Good Luck. Be good to yourself!!


----------



## humpty dumpty (Nov 26, 2008)

Ive had one sexual partner .. have i had the chance to have more ...yes loads of times ,, buit unlike my husband i can manage to say NO !


----------

