# Would you rugsweep for $1million? To retire?



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Assumptions: Smoking guns of affairs in the past. Yes, they did happen but you don't have the absolute proof. No suspicions of an affair for the past few years. Mid 50's age. Retirement in 10 yrs or so.

Divorce will cost you $1 million, leaving you with adequate day to day income until retirement age, but no assets for retirement. Thus, you will have to work until you are too feeble.

If you rugsweep, you keep a decent quality of life and will have adequate assets to retire. You'd be able to travel some, live in a decent location, not worry about money for typical things such as good food, clothing, a reasonable car.

Your marriage is ok for now. Generally pleasant. Sex is good, and is frequent enough. There are some issues but nothing by itself is a deal breaker.

So, would you rugsweep or D?


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

For you, no. You need clarity.

How about consulting a good lawyer on how to preserve your assets before divorce? Can you start losing money, go broke, etc now? Start a multi-year plan now?


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## bartendersfriend (Oct 14, 2013)

I feel like, even if I loved my wife, I would need to know the truth.

I don't necessarily know that I would be willing to divorce and punish myself through my retirement years if my spouse were willing to come clean though.


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## Aerith (May 17, 2013)

I would do neither...

You told that overall the marriage is good. Hopefully you wife feels the same. So, it's worth saving...Give her a fair warning... If something is going on, it has to stop.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

No way. I would D and downgrade, simplify my life and work longer. If you offered me $10 million right now to R with my WW, I'd say thanks but no.

But it's totally about you and what YOU are willing to live with. I would not be willing to keep living with her, no matter what the cost of D would be.

To each his own.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

aug said:


> For you, no. You need clarity.
> 
> How about consulting a good lawyer on how to preserve your assets before divorce? Can you start losing money, go broke, etc now? Start a multi-year plan now?


Aug, I tried to pull out one chunk of my situation to make it more generic for discussion rather than about my particular decision matrix. I'm interested in what price people might put on rugsweeping.

For me, though, the big money is my wife's inheritance which I have no claim on in D. If I stay, it funds our retirement. If I leave she gets half of our joint stuff plus the inheritance plus permanent alimony from me (I earn more than she does). I could not possibly save enough to retire when forced to at age 65. So I'll have to find some job to work during retirement.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Thor said:


> Assumptions: Smoking guns of affairs in the past. Yes, they did happen but you don't have the absolute proof. No suspicions of an affair for the past few years. Mid 50's age. Retirement in 10 yrs or so.
> 
> Divorce will cost you $1 million, leaving you with adequate day to day income until retirement age, but no assets for retirement. Thus, you will have to work until you are too feeble.
> 
> ...


I would refuse to accept that if I had $1 million in assets that I would have ZERO assets after a divorce. This scenario isn't plausible. I'd either make sure my STBXW had nothing like me or we both had equitable dissolution of the marriage.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

If I knew she and a physical affair, I couldn't live with her ever again. I would put her through the divorce from hell and off shore as much of the money as I can. I might just leave and she would never hear form me again.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

There is not enough money to rugsweep.

I would try a polygraph, and try to get at the truth.

Life is too short to rugsweep, and be the backup plan. I could not live with this situation, so if she will not take the polygraph or come clean, divorce and work until I die.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Thor said:


> Aug, I tried to pull out one chunk of my situation to make it more generic for discussion rather than about my particular decision matrix. I'm interested in what price people might put on rugsweeping.
> 
> For me, though, the big money is my wife's inheritance which I have no claim on in D. If I stay, it funds our retirement. If I leave she gets half of our joint stuff plus the inheritance plus permanent alimony from me (I earn more than she does). I could not possibly save enough to retire when forced to at age 65. So I'll have to find some job to work during retirement.


Interesting scenario.

I suppose it would depend on what you value the most; the marriage or the lifestyle. I wouldn't judge anyone that would choose the later, though I might feel sorry for them that they had to make such a compromise.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Thor said:


> For me, though, the big money is my wife's inheritance which I have no claim on in D. If I stay, it funds our retirement. If I leave she gets half of our joint stuff plus the inheritance plus permanent alimony from me (I earn more than she does). I could not possibly save enough to retire when forced to at age 65. So I'll have to find some job to work during retirement.



Can you sell the joint stuff and invest the proceed? Investments are tricky. They may go sour or get lost in the future. In the meantime live well and generously on her inheritance? Maybe she can invest part of her inheritance too?


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Thor said:


> Aug, I tried to pull out one chunk of my situation to make it more generic for discussion rather than about my particular decision matrix. I'm interested in what price people might put on rugsweeping.
> 
> For me, though, the big money is my wife's inheritance which I have no claim on in D. If I stay, it funds our retirement. If I leave she gets half of our joint stuff plus the inheritance plus permanent alimony from me (I earn more than she does). I could not possibly save enough to retire when forced to at age 65. So I'll have to find some job to work during retirement.


Ouch, that sucks Thor...but...

Would you rather live in misery in excess or live happily in "comfort". Comfort being defined as everything you need, not necessarily everything you want.


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

Thor said:


> Assumptions: Smoking guns of affairs in the past. Yes, they did happen but you don't have the absolute proof. No suspicions of an affair for the past few years. Mid 50's age. Retirement in 10 yrs or so.
> 
> Divorce will cost you $1 million, leaving you with adequate day to day income until retirement age, but no assets for retirement. Thus, you will have to work until you are too feeble.
> 
> ...


stick around until she gets the $. Then divorce her and use the money on a smoking hot, speaks no english 20 something russian bride.
Winning!!

Just kidding. work on the marriage or leave the marriage. Forget the $.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Why does it have to be rugsweep or D? Is it impossible to get truth as to the affairs and yet avoid divorce in favor of recovery?


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## SaltInWound (Jan 2, 2013)

.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

Thor said:


> For me, though, the big money is my wife's inheritance which I have no claim on in D. If I stay, it funds *our* retirement.


Does she have the inheritance now? If not, she may be staying with you (the higher earner) until she gets the cash. Don't be so sure that if you stay, it funds "our" retirement.

In your shoes, with no real proof, I'd try to make things work out a while longer. At the same, I'd prepare in the background for D, and the possibility that you won't see a dime of that inheritance.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Dad&Hubby said:


> I would refuse to accept that if I had $1 million in assets that I would have ZERO assets after a divorce. This scenario isn't plausible. I'd either make sure my STBXW had nothing like me or we both had equitable dissolution of the marriage.





Dad&Hubby said:


> Ouch, that sucks Thor...but...
> 
> Would you rather live in misery in excess or live happily in "comfort". Comfort being defined as everything you need, not necessarily everything you want.


Excess? Comfort? There is a comfort in knowing that your daily bread is taken care of. 

Having to work and scrimp and save every penny of every day may meet your 'need' but it is hardly a 'comfort.'.

I would not call it 'rugsweeping' at this point. I would call it marital 180: in that you emotionally disengage from the wife and live your life. 'Your life' may or may not involve her in it's activities.

But in any event, it really isn't 'your' money. It's her money that she is (possibly) allowing you to use.

I would suggest that uncertainty is NOT the worst thing in the world. Uncertainty is the plight of mankind in ALL factors, not just marriage.

Keep an eye out, live a fulfilling life for yourself, and kick the can down the road until something else comes up.

I would suggest that IF she is holding off on divorcing you until she is vested in her inheritance or if something happens AFTER she has her inheritance, your attorney can make a perfectly plausible argument that Mrs. Moneybags does not NEED your retirement or alimony. It might spare your 401k or at least keep the division to a rational 70/30 split. Try calculating your future with that in mind.

As always, discuss this situation with a lawyer.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Philat said:


> Why does it have to be rugsweep or D? Is it impossible to get truth as to the affairs and yet avoid divorce in favor of recovery?


There is no way to get her to admit to anything. I have smoking guns but no dead body, i.e. no photos, emails, dna evidence.

Without believing I have the full truth from her, yet knowing that 2+2=4, it is rugsweeping if we stay together.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

JCD said:


> Excess? Comfort? There is a comfort in knowing that your daily bread is taken care of.
> 
> *Having to work and scrimp and save every penny of every day may meet your 'need' but it is hardly a 'comfort.'.*
> 
> ...


We can agree to disagree on what can or is comfortable because I think that is determined by each individual during that specific time in their lives. Immediately after my divorce I was piss poor, had to live on my parents couch for six months, but I was "comfortable" because I also found the time after my divorce some of the most enriching as a person. I was able to repair myself from all of the issues I dealt with from my marriage and although it was the poorest I've been since a freshman in college, it was also some of the best days I've had in my life.

I wasn't asking Thor to guide him into what I think is a "correct" answer, because there is no "correct" answer, what's right for one person could be wrong for another.

I completely agree to discussing with a lawyer as well, I'm guessing on this, but isn't there something in the laws that at some point an inheritance does become marital assets, based on how it's collected, when and how long the marriage was?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

If it'd get or save me $1 million, I'd help her pick out boyfriends.


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## toonaive (Dec 13, 2012)

How would she get alimony from you if she has all those funds to draw from? Are you in an equitable distribution state?


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

thunderstruck said:


> Does she have the inheritance now? If not, she may be staying with you (the higher earner) until she gets the cash. Don't be so sure that if you stay, it funds "our" retirement.
> 
> In your shoes, with no real proof, I'd try to make things work out a while longer. At the same, I'd prepare in the background for D, and the possibility that you won't see a dime of that inheritance.


This is exactly what I was thinking. Who is to say that if you stick it out, you will actually get to share in any of that? If she is smart enough to keep the money separate, you will have zero claim to it in a divorce down the road.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

toonaive said:


> How would she get alimony from you if she has all those funds to draw from? Are you in an equitable distribution state?


The money is certain, but not currently available to her due to the structure of things. She will have it by retirement age. The way the legal fine print lines up it is not considered in alimony calculations.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

You're in your mid 50s and have no assets for retirement?

If you left your wife and her million dollar inheritance you'd have nothing?

This really isn't a problem related to her affairs. It's poor budgeting and retirement planning.

Besides, Social Security will still be around for another 25 years or so. Stop spending - start saving and figure out what income you could generate on those savings if you started today, add it to the Social Security and I bet you could afford yourself a nice little apartment somewhere and something more important: freedom.


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

Do you think that she genuinely loves you, Thor? Some people just cannot overcome their pride and admit that they lied. They were not able to be honest as children, and they carried this defense mechanism into adulthood.

I'll bet she tells herself that she does not want to hurt you, and she is afraid of what you would do if she were to tell you the truth.
At this point she has too much invested in her lie to come clean to you.

While this is not comparable to cheating, I think that my husband lied to me about the results of an employment drug test early in our marriage. He swore up and down that he had not smoked any marijuana, and claimed that the test showed a false positive. Because he is a good husband in every other way, I chose not to dwell on this possible lie.

What if you divorced, did not get her inheritance, had to pay alimony and share your retirement, and still she refused to admit to the truth?

If things are good now, I would let it go. I would assume that she did indeed lie, but I would try to forgive her. I do not feel it is worth giving up half of what you worked so hard for all of your life when you may never get the truth out of her.


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## skinnyskis (Oct 23, 2013)

Hi Thor. I've been lurking at CWI for 2 years, this is my first post. Your thread prompted me to break the ice because my marriage is somewhat similar to yours and I've been asking myself the same questions you have.

I'm 56, retired for 1 year. My wife is 53 works casually as an RN. We have a comfortable (not wealthy) retirement. Been married 26 years. 

For the most part our marriage has been and is pretty good, but I harbour resentment for dear wife flirting like a well, ****, a few times over our marriage at parties. No hard evidence of cheating ever, but the old gut tells me different.

If I choose to, I can look ahead to a comfortable retirement and an OK marriage with my wife while having some resentments, or blow it up and face a much more threadbare retirement financially and lose a pretty good (but not really great) marriage.



Thor said:


> Your marriage is ok for now. Generally pleasant. Sex is good, and is frequent enough. There are some issues but nothing by itself is a deal breaker.
> 
> So, would you rugsweep or D?


My advice to you is this: 
1) can you work to make your marriage better? If you're going to spend the rest of your life with this woman can you improve your marriage from a C grade to an A grade? 

2) keep fit, socially active, and think highly of yourself so that you both truly believe she's lucky to have you in the marriage, her inheritence be damned.

Rug sweeping... well with no smoking gun choosing to leave your wife, man that is really tough. Be vigilant, but walking away on a marriage without hard evidence, I couldn't do it.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

thunderstruck said:


> Does she have the inheritance now? If not, she may be staying with you (the higher earner) until she gets the cash. Don't be so sure that if you stay, it funds "our" retirement.


Cold and stark. Thanks though for a slant I hadn't thought of.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> I'm guessing you had suspicions a long time ago and could never get enough proof to justify what you thought was happening? You then decided to "rug sweep". It was sort of a conscious decision and it was sort of a, "hey, I can't justify taking action in the marriage to the woman I love, unless I have solid proof".


Pretty much the case, though it wasn't a decision to rug sweep. I decided to try to work things out, with the hope of getting to a point of either peace or certainty about the past. Definitely I don't want to blow up a 31 yr marriage and affect the kids, etc, without some solid proof she crossed the deal breaker line.




2ntnuf said:


> For me, the trouble is, every day I let things go on, I lost respect. I lost respect from everyone. They all thought I was a patsy. So, in my opinion, you must take some action. Your wife will lose respect for you to the point that she will leave you eventually, if she finds a more suitable provider. You have to take calculated risks. You have to stand up for yourself or you will lose any love remaining from her.


I don't know who might know what. I don't know who the OM(s) may be, though there are some candidates in mind. I have definitely thought about the loss of respect from her if she goes without getting caught, and the humiliation of others knowing what I do not.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

lenzi said:


> You're in your mid 50s and have no assets for retirement?
> 
> If you left your wife and her million dollar inheritance you'd have nothing?
> 
> ...


I have some savings in 401K and some equity in the house. In my industry they cut our wages by 2/3rds and eliminated pensions. So my planning from 25 yrs ago didn't pan out.

We put our kids through private school and helped 2 through college. It severely hurt our ability to save. She has always planned on the inheritance and has not saved anything substantial in her own 401k. Real estate has not appreciated here in fly-over country in the 15 years we've owned this house.

Our (my) plan was to max out savings when the kids leave the nest, which is next spring. With 2 of us maxing things out we would be in an ok situation. If we split, I pay her 25% of my gross income as alimony. It would be tough to save enough to fund any kind of retirement from there.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

You're in a tough spot.

I guess figure what your monthly budget would be with a bare minimum apartment, figure your take home pay after taxes and alimony and decide if you can live on it and put some money aside for the future. Remember you've got Social Security out there. 

If you can make the break than go for it.

Otherwise wait for the inheritance and try to get her to put it in some joint account so it could be treated as joint marital property, and/or start pulling money out of the account and hiding it somewhere for a few years prior to making your break.

Given the situation as you've described it I might just stick around a bit longer. 

Money isn't everything but it sure as heck counts for a lot.


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

Thor said:


> Assumptions: Smoking guns of affairs in the past. Yes, they did happen but you don't have the absolute proof. No suspicions of an affair for the past few years. Mid 50's age. Retirement in 10 yrs or so.
> 
> Divorce will cost you $1 million, leaving you with adequate day to day income until retirement age, but no assets for retirement. Thus, you will have to work until you are too feeble.
> 
> ...


HELL YES!! 

Cheaper to keep her


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## Hortensia (Feb 1, 2013)

Lol, what is this, Indecent Proposal? I think I saw a similar thread "would you allow your spouse to do it for $ 1 million " or something like that...

As for if I rugswept...if the A was strictly physical, no emotions, probably. Otherwise, if "I love you's" were exchanged, not even if I wanted to, I would not be able to go on. You can remain legally married, but once something is a deal breaker, the heart checks out. Once that happens, the $ million can't make you feel differently, maybe just fake it - IF you are good at acting..lol.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> I think, and this is going to sound terrible, if you are going to stay with a woman the rest of your life, that is cheating on you and will not stop, you have a right to consider the marriage broken and no longer valid and go out and have sex on your own time.


Just for clarification, I do not believe she is currently in an affair. I believe any affairs ended about 2 years ago.

We see many threads discussing whether a BS would want to know about an affair or would they rather not be told. If the WS stopped the affair and felt real remorse, would it be better for the BS to live thinking everything was ok rather than know what happened.

I would want to know everything, and then make my decision based on facts.

When there is circumstantial evidence but no absolute proof, the BS suspects but cannot know for sure either way. How does one make a decision then?

If the marriage is young, and there are no kids or other complications, the choice to D might be easy. When the marriage is long term and there are complications, the decision is not so black and white.

The $ is only one part of my decision matrix. Yes it is a very significant factor, but not the only one.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> I'm not certain why you would consider staying and working on your marriage as rug sweeping. I would think that is only the case when you do nothing about the situation and ignore it. If you are going to do that, I don't think it's going to end well in the long run.


It is one-sided rug sweeping. She denies anything ever happened. Yet I have smoking guns and a strong gut feeling about past events.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I just wrote a six-figure check which represented the vast majority of my inheritance - which was also my retirement savings - to buy a house so that I could leave my serial-cheating husband. So, obviously I made the choice not to try to stick it out. But, I did go through a lot of the mental gymnastics you're facing. 

_Do I want to give up the lifestyle we've built together? Do I want to give up the dream home we designed together and that our families helped us build? Do I want to be poor in middle and old age? Do I want to have to use money that should have gone to my son's college education to start a new life? I know who he is now, I'm emotionally detached, why shouldn't I just stay and let him do his thing while I do mine? Life would be easier, more materially comfortable, more socially comfortable. We get along fine, day-to-day, we don't argue or fight. He's mostly a nice enough guy. He's just a serial cheater and pathological liar. Now that I know it, I know what to expect and I won't be surprised or hurt when he's himself. We'll be roommates and nothing will really change. Why not just stay and play pretend? _

But, in the end, I just couldn't do it. I just couldn't stand to live a lie once I knew that that our whole marriage had been a farce. I finally realized that being away from him was worth whatever it cost. So, I blew up my whole life. I blew up my son's life. I blew my inheritance on a house that needs work. I blew my social life all to hell. I just lit the fuse and blew it up. 

But to do that, I think you really have to just reach a point where you know in your soul that you simply can't play pretend anymore. And that it won't ever be anything _other_ than pretend if you do stay. If you aren't there yet, I would say give it some time. You may find that staying as roommates with your own independent lives works for you. You may find that a true R is actually possible. But, then, you may find, as I did, that even broke and struggling, it hurts less to be out of the marriage than it does to stay and know things won't ever be different. It's a choice only you can make and I don't think there's a right or wrong here.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Rowan said:


> Do I want to give up the lifestyle we've built together? Do I want to give up the dream home we designed together and that our families helped us build? Do I want to be poor in middle and old age? Do I want to have to use money that should have gone to my son's college education to start a new life? *I know who he is now, I'm emotionally detached, why shouldn't I just stay and let him do his thing while I do mine?* Life would be easier, more materially comfortable, more socially comfortable. We get along fine, day-to-day, we don't argue or fight. He's mostly a nice enough guy. He's just a serial cheater and pathological liar. Now that I know it, *I know what to expect and I won't be surprised or hurt when he's himself.* We'll be roommates and nothing will really change. Why not just stay and play pretend?


Wow, Rowan, thanks for your post. It really hits home, all of it. The bolded parts are exactly what I have been wondering if I can do.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

JCD said:


> Excess? Comfort? There is a comfort in knowing that your daily bread is taken care of.
> 
> Having to work and scrimp and save every penny of every day may meet your 'need' but it is hardly a 'comfort.'.
> 
> ...


I agree. Once she gets the inheritance, she might not be entitled to very much alimony, if any at all.

In the US, permanent alimony is only until the spouse receiving it remarries or if their financial situation proves somehow greatly such as winning a lottery. 

It seems to me a million dollar inheritance may change things. 

Talk to a good attorney.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

Skype: 

Makes some excellent points. 

If she is no longer cheating, she may be telling lies or omitting facts about the past issues because she is fearful it will cause a divorce. 

If you are happy, what's the issue?

Most marriages have problems. Even if you remarry you may have problems. Perhaps even worse ones. 

Marriage is in sickness and in health. 

IMO, people give up too easily. 

Sometimes a person has an affair because they are at a point where they are emotionally unhealthy.......that's the sickness part. 

If your life is comfortable and happy, are you really rugsweeping? 

Rugsweeping to me would be to ignore an ongoing affair or one that is now taking place. 



skype said:


> Do you think that she genuinely loves you, Thor? Some people just cannot overcome their pride and admit that they lied. They were not able to be honest as children, and they carried this defense mechanism into adulthood.
> 
> I'll bet she tells herself that she does not want to hurt you, and she is afraid of what you would do if she were to tell you the truth.
> At this point she has too much invested in her lie to come clean to you.
> ...


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

remorseful strayer said:


> If she is no longer cheating, she may be telling lies or omitting facts about the past issues because she is fearful it will cause a divorce.
> 
> If you are happy, what's the issue?


The problem is I can't be happy knowing there are lies still outstanding. What else is there I don't know about? Who else knows? Do I have contact with former OMs without knowing who they are? How deep is this rabbit hole?

If she is omitting the truth, she is not being truthful. Which makes her not trustworthy. It means she doesn't respect me or think much of my needs or dignity.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Thor said:


> Wow, Rowan, thanks for your post. It really hits home, all of it. The bolded parts are exactly what I have been wondering if I can do.


Some people can do it. My parents are friends with a lovely older couple who have had this type of marriage for probably the last 50 years. She realized somewhere along the way that this is simply who he is. He's always going to have a mistress, maybe more than one. But their lives together are rich and full, their kids grew up to be productive citizens, they have a very comfortable lifestyle, and they honestly seem pretty happy together in their golden years. She opted to stay, worked out how to be happy with what they have, and has not regretted it. My Mom can't wrap her head around how a woman could stay in that situation. I totally get it. No judgment from me there. She made the decision she thought best for her, and she's had an amazing life that wouldn't have been possible if she'd left his cheating ass all those years ago. He's extremely respectful of her in public, solicitous, kind, affectionate, helpful, engaged with her when he's with her, and generally seems devoted, even loving. He just happens to have other women on the side. It isn't what she would have chosen, but it works for them fairly well. 

If that had been our situation, I might have stayed and worked out how to have a detached but friendly marriage. If my husband had been a good kind man, engaged with me and our son, and otherwise been a good partner in other respects? I might have chosen to stay, just accepting him for himself, and being friends who share a life but not a truly connected marriage. But he wasn't, so I didn't.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

Thor said:


> The problem is I can't be happy knowing there are lies still outstanding. What else is there I don't know about? Who else knows? Do I have contact with former OMs without knowing who they are? How deep is this rabbit hole?
> 
> If she is omitting the truth, she is not being truthful. Which makes her not trustworthy. It means she doesn't respect me or think much of my needs or dignity.


I understand. I am one who believes in complete honesty after exposure. 

Still, you are assuming she is omitting information or telling lies out of disrespect. 

Typically, though, people lie out of fear of consequences or fear of hurting the loyal spouse even more. It's misguided, but it's still the most typical reason for continuing to lie after an affair or affairs have been exposed. 

Have you verified that she is no longer seeing anyone? Is she being transparent?

If so, have you told her what you just told me?

If not......tell her, or get her to a counselor who will tell her that you need the names of the OMs and other details.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

remorseful strayer said:


> I understand. I am one who believes in complete honesty after exposure.
> 
> Still, you are assuming she is omitting information or telling lies out of disrespect.
> 
> ...


I am sure she rationalizes keeping secrets as protecting me. She has told me that was her reason for some secrets. Which is true, I would not have married her had I known those facts before the wedding.

I expect she is hiding things now for the same self serving reason of keeping me from leaving, though she would rationalize it as she doesn't want to hurt me. Thinking to herself that she will not cheat in the future, there is no reason to tell me about the past.

She has denied any affairs. But there are behaviors, events, and evidence which screams she had affairs.

I have seen no evidence for at least 20 months which is suspicious of any ongoing affairs. Her job makes it easy if she wanted to, though. She could keep a burner phone there, and she is the boss who has a lot of appointments all over the area, so she could easily meet up during the day without anyone else knowing. Still, I see nothing in her behavior here which worries me at all.


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

Can somebody please tell me what the hell is going on? 

Is this a hypothetical scenario or the OP's situation?


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## amahoy1971 (Nov 12, 2012)

I don't have inheritance or a million. But I made him to sign a separation agreement to give me the house entirely paid that is 720000. He is very remorseful and I know money moves this man and loose the house is something big for him. There are no guarantees though. The divorce will be done in March meanwhile he is doing everything possible to win me back. 
I am being marriage for 15 yrs, 2 teens and he slept with prostitutes last year. Very difficult to forgive. I feel detached at this point but I don't want to put my children back and forth. He now is labelled as chronic adulterer, OCPD, that is what he is. It is this an excuse for cheating? NO. However that is what he is. 
Our relationship now is as is described here:
_*We get along fine, day-to-day, we don't argue or fight. He's mostly a nice enough guy. He's just a serial cheater and pathological liar. Now that I know it, I know what to expect and I won't be surprised or hurt when he's himself. We'll be roommates and nothing will really change. Why not just stay and play pretend? *_


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Vanguard said:


> Can somebody please tell me what the hell is going on?
> 
> Is this a hypothetical scenario or the OP's situation?


I started out trying to make this a hypothetical with some base assumptions. I pulled out one aspect of my situation and offered it up, as one person put it, as a sort of Indecent Proposal scenario. Would you rugsweep or would you D, if it would mean loss of retirement for you? The $ cost is $1 million which cannot be recovered before retirement age.

Then it devolved into a more specific discussion of my situation.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

Thor said:


> Assumptions: Smoking guns of affairs in the past. Yes, they did happen but you don't have the absolute proof. No suspicions of an affair for the past few years. Mid 50's age. Retirement in 10 yrs or so.
> 
> Divorce will cost you $1 million, leaving you with adequate day to day income until retirement age, but no assets for retirement. Thus, you will have to work until you are too feeble.
> 
> ...





thunderstruck said:


> Does she have the inheritance now? If not, she may be staying with you (the higher earner) until she gets the cash. Don't be so sure that if you stay, it funds "our" retirement.
> 
> In your shoes, with no real proof, I'd try to make things work out a while longer. At the same, I'd prepare in the background for D, and the possibility that you won't see a dime of that inheritance.



Dear Thor,

You ask a fascinating question. Essentially, it is a maximization problem (you are trying to maximize your "future happiness") and this involves attempting to maximize and making trade offs between two or possibly three variables:

- income (how much you will have to live on in your retirement),

- relationships satisfaction (basically, the degree of satisfaction you derive from your personal relationships, e.g., with your significant other, be it your W or next partner, children, other family and friends) and [possibly]

- integrity (roughly, a measure of the degree of satisfaction that you receive from doing what you believe is "right").

Answering the question requires an analysis of these variables in light of the fact that none are precisely quantifiable or predictable. Thus, while you may be able to calculate reasonably accurately how much income you will have if you and your W remain married for the rest of your lives, you cannot say for certain that you will remain married, even if you wish to, because, as thunderstruck pointed out, your W may decide to divorce you at some point, depriving you of the use of her inheritance.

Likewise, you cannot predict your future relationships satisfaction. If you remain married, your current degree of dissatisfaction over the fact that you believe your W has not been honest with you may increase (e.g., if she someday admits to infidelities) or decrease (if your marriage continues to improve). If you divorce, this will affect your relationships with your children, other family members and friends in ways that are hard to predict. Also, if you divorce, you cannot say with any degree of certainty whether you will find another life partner who will make you happier than your W does now.

You could make some "reasonable" guesses about these two variables' values if you remain married versus if you divorce, but that is all they would be -- guesses. Moreover, how does one value the trade off between more income but less relationship satisfaction (assuming you remain seriously dissatisfied with what you believe is your W's refusal to tell you the truth), if you remain married, versus less income but (possibly) more relationship satisfaction, if you divorce (and assuming that you find a better life partner)?

Thus, it is not possible to plot a course of action that will lead, with any degree of certainty, to the maximization of your future happiness considering only these two variables.

Given that your problem cannot be solved by such a logical analysis (which is not surprising, because very few of life's problems are solvable logically), I believe you need to consider the third variable -- integrity. This is what I would call the "I can sleep at night, knowing that I've done the right thing" factor. For many people, this is the answer to life's insoluble problems -- doing what they believe is right, rather than doing what they think (i.e., guess) will benefit them in some way.

If doing what is right is really important to you, then if you maximize your integrity, you are most likely to find happiness, however much money you have to spend when you retire or whatever the state of your future relationships with your W (or next life partner, if you end up divorced), children, other family and friends.

Of course, taking this course of action does not answer your question because it still leaves you with the difficult task (or, more likely, series of difficult tasks) of deciding what is "right." However, from reading your other threads, I sense that you have a strong moral compass and that you will find making the "right" decision much easier than trying to predict the future.

My guess is that you will find that the right thing to do is to continue to work on improving your marriage as long as your W demonstrates a willingness to do the same. At the same time, it would not hurt to consult an attorney and possibly a financial analyst to be prepared for the eventuality of divorce (which thunderstruck also suggested).

I hope that this response is some value to you.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Carmen, your post is very thought provoking. Thanks.



carmen ohio said:


> You ask a fascinating question. Essentially, it is a maximization problem (you are trying to maximize your "future happiness") and this involves attempting to maximize and making trade offs between two or possibly three variables:


My parents programmed me with very strong messages of "Don't Screw Up", and "Keep Your Options Open". I think there is a lot of conflict between that programming and the process which you have accurately identified as maximizing future happiness. D means failing at marriage, which is bad by definition. Staying in limbo keeps my options open. Solving the problem of what course likely maximizes my happiness requires closing off at least one option, and may involve either failing at marriage or making the wrong choice now (screwing up).

Hmm, you really hit me with something here.




carmen ohio said:


> Given that your problem cannot be solved by such a logical analysis (which is not surprising, because very few of life's problems are solvable logically), I believe you need to consider the third variable -- integrity. This is what I would call the "I can sleep at night, knowing that I've done the right thing" factor. For many people, this is the answer to life's insoluble problems -- doing what they believe is right, rather than doing what they think (i.e., guess) will benefit them in some way.


Yes, I like the idea of living with integrity. As you have probably read in my other posts, the situation is complicated by W's history of sex abuse. For the past 2 years it seemed the right thing to do was try to understand how the CSA affected her, and find what was the right thing to do. I have gotten some answers there over time.

Part of the inner turmoil is deciding if I can live with someone who has a very different idea of what is the right thing.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I am probably not best placed to answer this. As I rugswept at a much younger age, for nothing but love.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

Thor said:


> Carmen, your post is very thought provoking. Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thor,

Deciding to do what is right is often a lot easier than figuring out what that is. Let me suggest how to go about it.

Ask yourself, "what matters most to me"? It could be your faith, your family or your sense of self-worth. Whatever it is, doing the right thing means doing right by what matters most to you.

A lot of people on TAM/CWI, myself included, frequently advise the BS to divorce the WS. Often times, the advice is rejected. Sometimes it's for religious reasons. Sometime it's out of the BS's concern for his children. Sometimes it's just because the BS loves the WS too much to let go of her.

Each of these is a valid reason to stay. It doesn't mean that things will work out the way the BS hopes they will but, whatever happens, at least the BS can say that he lived up to his principles.

Using the same approach, one could conclude that divorce is the right option. For example, if you value self-respect above all else, divorce might be the best course of action.

I guess this is just a long way of saying that acting with integrity requires _knowing_ the kind of person you want to be and then _doing_ what that person would do.

If you follow this path, what anyone else thinks is right becomes irrelevant.

Wishing you the best.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

carmen ohio said:


> Sometimes it's just because the BS loves the WS too much to let go of her.
> 
> Each of these is a valid reason to stay. It doesn't mean that things will work out the way the BS hopes they will but, whatever happens, at least the BS can say that he lived up to his principles.


I'm thinking that staying with the cheater because the BS loves the WS too much to let go isn't a valid reason and doesn't have anything to do with principles.

It's more about fear.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

lenzi said:


> I'm thinking that staying with the cheater because the BS loves the WS too much to let go isn't a valid reason and doesn't have anything to do with principles.
> 
> It's more about fear.


I figured out that for me I loved the concept of marriage and the image of marriage. Honestly I don't have a yearning to be single.

Also in my particular case I have been processing and mourning for the past 2 years after learning (finally) about her childhood sex abuse. It was fairly bad, and I am sure much worse than the tiny bit she told me. So I have sympathy for her. I grieve for the young child who had so much taken from her by the abuser. I understand how those events caused the dysfunctions in her behaviors and thought patterns.

Out of basic human sympathy, call it a generic love if you wish, I don't want to do her harm.

And yes there is certainly some fear involved in thinking about D.


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## Really!?!? (Sep 14, 2013)

Thor, how has the past 2 years been relationship-wise since the CSA was disclosed? 

My situation (as you know from other threads), is that I knew about my W's CSA history before we married,.... but still it has haunted us. She rarely attempted to continue her healing from her CSA during our marriage, and has mastered the art of transferring her unresolved issues from the CSA, onto me.

She (like your W I believe), is allergic to CSA related therapy,... hence - our pending divorce and seperation,.... although she's still living in the house 4 and 1/2 months after announcing she is "done" with our marraige.

I too suspect possible infidelity on her part at times,... but then again I don't have any proof/evidence, nor really care to investigate. I can't live walking on eggshells forever.

I love her, but don't want to continue in a marriage where I never know if she will return that love - when she is capable of it. She says she loves me,... but is not "in love" with me. I have to remind myself, that it's pathetic that I should want to be in a relationship with someone I'd have to convince is in love with me,... that's just sad to me.

The books I've read, all state that part of a Survivors acting out can include marital infidelity, promiscuity, etc,.... and although I don't want to believe it, I can see how my W needs constant validation. Her addiction is the "honeymoon/dating phase",.... which we all know is difficult if not impossible to sustain in most marriages.

For your situation, how do you weigh the emotional insanity in a relationship with a Survivor, vs. the financial and devastating after-affects of divorce?

I contemplate that every day,..... things either need to get much better, or much worse in the relationship - in order to fight off divorce, or welcome it with hope and relief.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Really!?!? said:


> Thor, how has the past 2 years been relationship-wise since the CSA was disclosed?
> .
> .
> .
> ...


It is better in some ways, but still very dysfunctional. I have gotten some clarity on who she really is. My decision to leave, if I make that choice, is likely to be based on knowing who she really is.

I describe it as her template of what a marriage relationship should be. The template includes deceptions, omissions, and lies for the purpose of getting what she wants. What she wants is 2 things, security and the outward appearance of normalcy.

Security means financial stability, and a non-threatening friendship or companionship. Fear of abandonment is probably high on her list of fears, so she wants a non-conflict relationship. She also, I believe, fears discovery of the shameful dirty person she perceives herself to be due to the CSA. This adds up to a distant attachment, and hiding anything which may be uncomfortable about the present or the past.

Outward appearance of normalcy is part of hiding that inner shame. We literally have the house in the suburbs with a white picket fence and a golden retriever. She creates a shield in so many ways to project this normalcy to non-intimate friends, colleagues, and strangers.

The circumstantial evidence of affairs is very strong. Now knowing of her CSA and the propensity for some survivors to seek sex or intimacy outside of marriage, it seems quite possible that there have been a string of affairs. I can list at least a half dozen names which caused my gut to worry me over the years. Her asexual nature in the marriage convinced me at the time she couldn't possibly be cheating.

I would describe her as seeming to want the marriage, but within her template. She is willing to put out sex almost weekly as the price, and she usually seems to enjoy it, but she does not want any other touching at other times. She does not want a close or warm relationship.

She could be described in some ways as barely meeting normal spouse interactivity. She does not meet my needs or desires, nor does our marriage look like what I picture as good.

She perpetrated a huge deception last summer. It showed that her template is still in place. It is central to her world view. She also engaged in a totally thought-less act a few weeks ago, which again demonstrated her total lack of empathy.

Yet, like you, I do love my wife. I have great sorrow and sympathy for what she suffered as a child, and sorrow for how it has ruined her adult life.

Leaving her would have large negative affects on both of us. There would be some positives, too, I guess, but I am not feeling drawn to leave for some great alternative.


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## Abc123wife (Sep 18, 2013)

Thor said:


> Assumptions: Smoking guns of affairs in the past. Yes, they did happen but you don't have the absolute proof. No suspicions of an affair for the past few years. Mid 50's age. Retirement in 10 yrs or so.
> 
> Divorce will cost you $1 million, leaving you with adequate day to day income until retirement age, but no assets for retirement. Thus, you will have to work until you are too feeble.
> 
> ...


Only you can decide! What can you live with? Will it drive you nuts not to know the truth? Even if you divorce will you ever know the truth? If she was cheating and admits it, would you forgive and want to continue with her?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Abc123wife said:


> Will it drive you nuts not to know the truth?
> 
> Even if you divorce will you ever know the truth?
> 
> If she was cheating and admits it, would you forgive and want to continue with her?


Yes it bothers me to not know the truth. And to know I will never know the full truth.

No, if we divorce I will never know the full truth.

If she came to me today and self disclosed with a lot of remorse, I would consider trying to R. There would be a lot of conditions on it. The chances of success would be pretty slim unless she were willing to make strong efforts at IC for her abuse history etc. The thing is that I believe she did have at least one affair. There is no other explanation for one of the pieces of evidence, plus all the other evidence points in that direction. So a self-confession on her part would only bring details, not the basic fact of an affair.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Vanguard said:


> Can somebody please tell me what the hell is going on?


Thor's explaining why he needs to win the lotto.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Thor,

In the final analysis, only you can decide what you are capable of living with and each of our opinions about what we would do will prove to be meaningless to your decision making process.

In the end, your have to be true to yourself. To h**l with what we think of your decision, if we agree with you or not.

As a simple thought exercise though, no I do not think I could do it.

I would look at myself with disgust and hate in the morning every day for the rest of my life because I would feel that I sold out my self-respect.


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## Really!?!? (Sep 14, 2013)

Thor said:


> It is better in some ways, but still very dysfunctional. I have gotten some clarity on who she really is. My decision to leave, if I make that choice, is likely to be based on knowing who she really is..


I don't know why it is, but you have the knack for describing your situation as it mirrors mine! I think you may consider the possibility, that you may NEVER know who she really is. For my W, I don't think she even knows who she really is. Per my request, my IC schooled me on the clinical definition of "Borderline Personality Disorder",... and wowie,.... scared the crap out of me on as it described my W to a T!



> Security means financial stability, and a non-threatening friendship or companionship. Fear of abandonment is probably high on her list of fears, so she wants a non-conflict relationship.


I get this too,... which is why W is still living at the house, months after announcing she wants out. Why does she want out, yet scared of abondonment? I think my W should go,.... and find out after I'm long gone what I've done and sacrificed for her for so long. 



> She also, I believe, fears discovery of the shameful dirty person she perceives herself to be due to the CSA. This adds up to a distant attachment, and hiding anything which may be uncomfortable about the present or the past.


Yikes, this one hit a nerve. I never put 2 and 2 together on this one before. When you wrote this, I saw how my W has this same fear and behavior.




> Outward appearance of normalcy is part of hiding that inner shame. We literally have the house in the suburbs with a white picket fence and a golden retriever. She creates a shield in so many ways to project this normalcy to non-intimate friends, colleagues, and strangers.



Ditto,... except no picket fence, and we have a Boxer (which I'm keeping).



> The circumstantial evidence of affairs is very strong. Now knowing of her CSA and the propensity for some survivors to seek sex or intimacy outside of marriage, it seems quite possible that there have been a string of affairs. I can list at least a half dozen names which caused my gut to worry me over the years. Her asexual nature in the marriage convinced me at the time she couldn't possibly be cheating.


This is where it get's dicey,.... how far and persistant does one pry into events that you may not want to actually know the outcome. I have suspiscions,... but to what end does it make a difference. Does she want to stay married, does she love you, does she show that love, do you feel that love, would she rather be with someone else, someone in particular, or does it matter who it is,.....?? My W also had an asexual nature in our marriage,.... then over the years started getting "the itch" that she missed and desparately needed the "chase" the "pursuit", that it "validated her", and nurtured her self esteem. We even talked about this need,.... and I of course listened and responded immediately to her needs,... in the beginning. But, eventually I slacked off, and she resented it. My bad,...

Her CSA Trauma occured between age 4 - 9, and her sexuality became a tangled mess woven into her constant need for attention, validation, and pursuit - but from a little girl's perspective. The immaturity of her actions now, resonate that of a 9 year old.

I can tell you exactly what is going to happen with us: we will separate, we will divorce, and she will have her flings,... and then - she will realize the love lost between us, at some point,.... .and then come calling on me,.... again. I lived this Ground Hog event 12 years ago,.... and BOTH our families are seeing the writing on the wall - all over again.

What will happen in your marriage? Can either one of you live in a complacent relationship, out of conveniece? Or to avoid financial ruin, or to not be alone?

I don't want to date either, nor have a desire to be with anyone else (at least for now). But how much more can a person be emotionally abused, taken advantage of, and be blamed for events that they had nothing to do with?



> I would describe her as seeming to want the marriage, but within her template. She is willing to put out sex almost weekly as the price, and she usually seems to enjoy it, but she does not want any other touching at other times. She does not want a close or warm relationship.


Well, consider yourself lucky to be active at least once a week. If it becomes once a month, and then not at all for a couple months,... be on the look out. Somewhere this year, my W became repulsed at the idea of having sex with me,... let me see - oh yeah, it was right about the time I was working my ass off making $, paying the bills, shopping, cooking, doing laundry, cleaning, taking care of our children,... when she was complaining of being tired all the time and depressed. Excuse the f*ck out of me for being the grown up and taking care of our family when she could barely lift a finger to paint her nails. I felt like her parent,..... I guess who would want to have sex with their parent?!?



> She also engaged in a totally thought-less act a few weeks ago, which again demonstrated her total lack of empathy. .


This is a RED FLAG :whip:



> Yet, like you, I do love my wife. I have great sorrow and sympathy for what she suffered as a child, and sorrow for how it has ruined her adult life.


Agreed,... but at some point, you would think they would realize you have taken your unfair share of her suffering. :scratchhead:



> Leaving her would have large negative affects on both of us. There would be some positives, too, I guess, but I am not feeling drawn to leave for some great alternative.


Maybe there's another solution - productive healing?!?

When you find that Holy Grail, please let me know. :biggrinangelA:


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## Insanity (Oct 28, 2013)

JCD said:


> I would call it marital 180: in that you emotionally disengage from the wife and live your life. 'Your life' may or may not involve her in it's activities.


This is where I find myself these days... at least, for now. 

It is a necessary place in the short-term, as I process all that has and is occurring, but it is no place for me long-term.


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## disconnected (May 30, 2013)

No


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## UsernameHere (Sep 26, 2013)

Maybe - I'd make sure he was so damn ugly she wouldn't fall for him after the deed was done


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