# Is there always a reason?



## messeduplady (May 31, 2012)

Just something that I stress over so much, would value others' opinions please - 


Does an affair always have a reason? Like some problem or issue thats not resolved? Or can they actually "just happen"; can some circumstances simply force a situation?

My husband had never been flirty natured or interested, in fact he has always been quiet and pretty boring to be honest. His AP talked to him one day at work then proceeded to send emails daily; just friendly in nature, asking how he was, that sort of stuff and it progressed from there. He says that if she had approached him outside of that situation he would have run a mile - that it didnt feel real at all. Admits he was a fool and flattered, ego boosted if you like, and he did try several times to stop contact but she reinstated emailing each time and he was weak (his words).

Our R has meant that we have talked very openly about possible faults in our marraige but we both agree that despite some minor things, it really wasnt that bad and at the time of the EA we were actually happy! There must be something??? Or is it me? Should I accept all the info I have and focus on the fact that he is completely 100% remorseful and transparent, I cannot fault his commitment at all now but I fear my constant quest for knowing "why" could scupper it all.

Wish these questions would stop, they drive me insane


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Yes, I think there's always reasons for an affair.

And that doesn't necessarily mean marriage problems were the reason or the justification, but in the situation above, selfishness and poor boundaries were definitely reasons.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Yes, that can happen. I recommend you both read Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass. It's very well explained in there.

And KNOW THIS: The state of your marriage is on both of you. But his choice to cheat is 100% on HIM. Just because your marriage was crappy did NOT give him permission to cheat. You each had four choices:
- cheat
- file for D
- do nothing
- work on the marriage
He made the WRONG one.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

There are different causes for affairs but in the end all share a few things in common. One is that the cheating spouse crossed marital boundaries that put him/her on a slippery slope to falling into an affair. This can happen even in the happiest of marriages. And another is the crazy belief the affair does not impact their marriage and even makes them a better spouse.

A betrayed spouse may have been neglectful in meeting their cheating spouses so called emotional needs but in no way agreed or encouraged their cheating spouse to go out and have an affair. The decision to cheat is entirely upon the cheating spouse's head.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Yes....selfishness


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## messeduplady (May 31, 2012)

Thanks guys. I think it is the crossing of boundaries that is my sticking point. I cannot help but argue that I would not have crossed that line, so what made him do it? 

Am waiting for that Shirley Glass book - am in UK and it is shipped from the US, watch the post like a hawk lol!


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## sculley (Jun 6, 2012)

I believe (I could be wrong)There are many reasons why it happens. The person in question could try to make it about something your not doing etc. I honestly believe (it happened in my relationships) that the person in question was or is dealing with stuff of their own...It was their fault.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> Yes....selfishness


While selfishness is a requisite this is no a reason, not even a root cause nor common treat of some cheaters. I know many people fundamentally selfish who doesn't cheat and also ussually unselfish people who suddenly cheated and went off the deep end. They are too many brands of cheaters, from serial to ''perfect storm'' one time cheaters, ONS'ers.... too many to find out common root causes.
I think people who usually put personal, instant satisfaction over values such as honesty, responsabiliy... integrity are prone to cheat thou.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Acabado said:


> While selfishness is a requisite this is no a reason, not even a root cause nor common treat of some cheaters. I know many people fundamentally selfish who doesn't cheat. THey are too many brands of cheaters, from serial to ''perfect storm'' on time cheaters, ONS'ers.... to many to find out common root causes.
> I think people who usually put personal, instant satisfaction over values such as honesty, responsabiliy... integrity are prone to cheat thou.


Well said


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

messeduplady said:


> Just something that I stress over so much, would value others' opinions please -
> 
> 
> Does an affair always have a reason? Like some problem or issue thats not resolved? Or can they actually "just happen"; can some circumstances simply force a situation?
> ...


Yes. There is always a reason. The reason is that ALWAYS the cheater has a sense of entitlement, and they are often spoiled by family and have always been a bit selfish and self centered.

Shirley Glass in her book "not just friends" acknowledges that typically the cheater is giving far less in the relationship than is the faithful spouse. 

I initially accepted the blame for the affair that my husband laid at my feet.

With the help of TAM and in Reviewing my life with my STBEH, I see that I really was not to blame, I was reacting to his behaviors and over the years I was the more giving spouse.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

well there's always justifications


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Acabado said:


> While selfishness is a requisite this is no a reason, not even a root cause nor common treat of some cheaters. I know many people fundamentally selfish who doesn't cheat and also ussually unselfish people who suddenly cheated and went off the deep end. They are too many brands of cheaters, from serial to ''perfect storm'' one time cheaters, ONS'ers.... too many to find out common root causes.
> I think people who usually put personal, instant satisfaction over values such as honesty, responsabiliy... integrity are prone to cheat thou.



But people who put their personal instant satisfaction ahead of values such as honesty and responsibility to their significant other, are selfish.

Cheaters are selfish. Not all selfish people cheat but cheaters are ALL selfish. It comes with the territory. There's not such thing as a unselfish cheater.

Reason? Perhaps not. More like personality flaw.


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## messeduplady (May 31, 2012)

Sara- that is really interesting about the faithful spouse giving more, seriously can't wait for that book to get here. I do find the fact that I was organising loads of nice events/nights away/party for our "significant" birthdays that happened at the time of the EA really goading. Everything we did around that time, however little actual contact he had with her, is now forever soiled and spoilt.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

> There's not such thing as a unselfish cheater.


The act of cheating is selfish no doubt but I have to disagree with the above comment. I know of a woman, a natural born giver for her whole life which one day went down the slipery slope, got all hooked up in a fantasy life, lost touch of reality and finnaly lost ALL. She betrayed herself, first. We love label people, this help us when we have no attachments with them to mark them permanently for one time in the life act and define them forever for this, I understand it, no need to feel any kind of empathy.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

> Admits he was a fool and flattered, ego boosted if you like,


Don't underestimate the power of the ego boost. She made him feel like Superman and he lapped it up.

At the same time, there is something within him that allowed that ego boost to be paramount. More generously, his personal issues made him susceptible to it. Less generously, his need to feel like Superman trumped his loyalty to you. 

Selfishness, low self-esteem, entitlement, narcissism, and on and on. There are all kinds of reasons why a cheater might end up being open to cheating, but they all are sourced within the cheater. As a baseline, even if you had the most rotten marriage ever, YOU did not choose to cheat but he did. In the most rotten marriage ever hypothetical, YOU would have chosen to address the problems; he didn't. Same marriage, different people, different choices. HE is the variable. The issue is within him as a person.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Sometimes the reason is that they are simply self-centered hedonists.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Acabado said:


> The act of cheating is selfish no doubt but I have to disagree with the above comment. I know of a woman, a natural born giver for her whole life which one day went down the slipery slope, got all hooked up in a fantasy life, lost touch of reality and finnaly lost ALL. She betrayed herself, first. We love label people, this help us when we have no attachments with them to mark them permanently for one time in the life act and define them forever for this, I understand it, no need to feel any kind of empathy.


In that moment, she became selfish.

But yes, I do understand your point.


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## lovemylife26 (Mar 21, 2012)

Yes, there is a reason for everything IMO. People might not want to hear the reason but there is always a reason for something.


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## Married&Confused (Jan 19, 2011)

i'll tell you what my counselor told me. first, the majority of the times there are two sides of the issue. there's no such thing as "i was giving him/her everything".

second, most cheating is because there is something lacking EMOTIONALLY in the relationship and very rarely because of lack of sex. one partner isn't getting their needs met by the other. it may be that the cheating partner stopped meeting the other partner's needs first and it just took a downward spiral.

but at some time, someone else started meeting those needs and it ends up as a PA or EA.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Hey messedup
There was another thread not too long ago discussing can anybody cheat or can any man cheat. Even in a great marriage, I think almost any person can cheat if given the perfect circumstance/situation, especially if there are no repercussions. 

For me… I have never cheated, but I came close a couple of times over a 20 year period, but I backed out each time. The women weren’t that assertive and I was also shy at the time. 

I think your husband can truly be remorseful. There may be no rhyme or reason. Just ego. I am always flattered when a beautiful woman gives me attention or pays me a complement. I hope I don’t fall for it.. EVER! Forgiveness is the hardest thing to do in a situation like this. 

Don't let it eat you up.

Was ie an EA or an PA?


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## messeduplady (May 31, 2012)

EA, daily email contact, no sexual overtones, five lunch meetings then one kiss (when he says he was wtf am I doing). AP appears imo to have some issues too, knew a bit too much about my husband; said she had liked him for ages but yet he only knew her by sight, bunny boiler tendencies. 

Doesnt in any way excuse him, they are both as much to blame though.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

I don’t think the majority of people involved in affairs set out with the intention of becoming adulterers. It is a snow ball effect. Most people don’t even know it’s rolling until its already gained significant speed and can very easily get out of control. 

The Disloyal Spouse doesn’t always realize what is happening or they begin to see it through “the fog”. A bad (often dismissed as “innocent”) decision starts the ball rolling, which forces another bad decision, which may be difficult to cope with, which is rationalized, which kicks in all of the defense mechanisms, which force more bad decisions…. Etc, etc, etc…

You are not as strong as your mind, and in affair situations your mind IS ON DRUGS. It most often starts as something “innocent” and somewhere along the line it starts… Chemicals get naturally released into the brain.. (continued here)


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Sometimes it is hard to know when that line is crossed. For me, I talk a lot. Mostly to guy fiends . Sometimes women friends. Many times I may say way more than I should. Would I call it an EA? No It depends on who it was. If I think back over the years when I talked about personal stuff, just like here on TAM, I guess it my wife may have thought that it was a EA. I don't know.

I think your husband stopped himself before it progressed to a PA. I don't think you have anything to worry about.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

First I would like to respond to two posts that I found so offensive I nearly reported them and decided instead to answer:


> Yes. There is always a reason. The reason is that ALWAYS the cheater has a sense of entitlement, and they are often spoiled by family and have always been a bit selfish and self centered.
> 
> Shirley Glass in her book "not just friends" acknowledges that typically the cheater is giving far less in the relationship than is the faithful spouse.


I find this highly offensive because rather than speaking as if disloyal spouses are imperfect human beings too, the author of this post chooses to generalize, to disparage all disloyals, to state as a fact that ALL disloyals are spoiled etc., to again state as a fact that ALL disloyals were lazy in their marriages and basically call names. This is an ad hominem (to the man) attack, meaning that rather than address the topic being discussed, this author chose to attack THE PERSON. 

The next post I found completely off-base was this one:


> But people who put their personal instant satisfaction ahead of values such as honesty and responsibility to their significant other, are selfish.
> 
> Cheaters are selfish. Not all selfish people cheat but cheaters are ALL selfish. It comes with the territory. There's not such thing as a unselfish cheater.
> 
> Reason? Perhaps not. More like personality flaw.


Sorry but again, I find this comment un-called for and insulting. There is no possible way that ALL disloyals--or even "the majority" of disloyals--could be lumped into one group that requires instant gratification. Or that all disloyals are so devoid of values that we all just set aside our morality to get our kicks...NOW!! Would you find it reasonable if I said that ALL Loyal Spouses were lazy and drove their disloyals into the OP's arms? Not just no but HECK NO--nor should you! Okay some may have, but not "most" and for sure not all!! Furthermore, it is just unnecessary to say that every time someone has an affair that some personality flaw had to be involved. Is it a personality flaw for loyal spouses to get complacent as time goes by? Or to start engaging in love extinguishers? Maybe it's not a disorder but it's not always a mental illness either. 

So I understand that as a loyal Spouse you may be hurt and angry at your Disloyal, but that is YOUR disloyal, not "every" disloyal--just like what happened to me with my exH is not what happened with YOUR husband ... nor is what happened with me, what happened with your Disloyal. Do we follow certain patterns and are some things pretty likely and predicable? Yep. Loyals follow certain patterns as well! But if you expect the disloyal spouses on this forum to not generically go around spouting as if it's a fact about "ALL LOYALS *do this*" or "ALL LOYAL SPOUSES <insert disparaging remark here>" then please apply that same expectation to yourself. 

* * * * * * * * * * * * 

Now to the topic at hand! 



> Just something that I stress over so much, would value others' opinions please - _Does an affair always have a reason? Like some problem or issue thats not resolved?_ Or can they actually "just happen"; can some circumstances simply force a situation?
> 
> ...
> 
> Our R has meant that we have talked very openly about possible faults in our marriage but we both agree that despite some minor things, it really wasnt that bad and at the time of the EA we were actually happy! *There must be something??? Or is it me? *Should I accept all the info I have and focus on the fact that he is completely 100% remorseful and transparent, I cannot fault his commitment at all now but I fear my constant quest for knowing "why" could scupper it all. Wish these questions would stop, they drive me insane.


I can not speak for every disloyal spouse. I'm sure there are some who were jerks, who took and took while their spouse gave and gave--but I can speak for myself and I can say that this was NOT the case in my marriage prior to my affair. I think like most couples, Dear Hubby and I did tend to both get a little complacent as years go by. But be honest--who doesn't after a couple, then 5 and then 10 years go by? I certainly did not ignore him or stop being polite or make he go off to work and then yell at him all night when he came home...as some disloyals are portrayed. NOR was I a moral derelict and slimy dishonest person with severe character flaws prior to my affair either! My whole life I grew up knowing right from wrong, living more right than wrong, and working hard to be a good person. I didn't think the world revolved around me, or that anyone owed me anything (probably the exact opposite, actually). I did not have a family that spoiled me (again...probably the exact opposite). If you had asked me beforehand, I would have described myself as an honest, faithful, easy-going, happy, consistent, somewhat introverted, smart, funny, moral, mature, healthy woman. I would have thought of myself as the LAST PERSON ON EARTH who would have an affair. 

So how did a person like me have an affair?

To be entirely honest, it took me a while to completely understand it myself. At the time it was occurring, a portion was making some very small choices that were not "immoral" but that I know now were unwise--they were like the precursors that set it up. Another portion was having some events occur that I did not even know HOW to talk about! And another portion was leaving myself unguarded (and therefore, vulnerable to) attack. I didn't ever consciously think "Hmmm..it's Wednesday. I think I'll start an affair today and to hell with how much I'll hurt everybody" but instead it seemed a little more like instinctual reactions that later I was able to look back on and figure out why I did that. 

Now here's the long story. My Dear Hubby and I love children. I mean we LOVE them (we have seven!). Well, we had hoped one day to be blessed with number eight and part of what happened is that I got pregnant and miscarried. This was obviously sorrowful for both of us, but he processed it by pulling inward to "work through it" and I processed it by turn to him and he wasn't there. It was like ***** #1. Then in the doctor visits following the miscarriage we had some tests and discovered that we had medical issues and would no longer be able to have children. Again, it was another sorrow ... and ***** #2. Dear Hubby is 5 years older than I am, and I was entering like peri-menopause kinds of stuff, and he was older than that...so his hormones changed regarding sex drive and mine maybe were just starting and hadn't really changed yet... and after losing our final child and then finding out we couldn't have more, it also seemed like his interest in sex was really waning. I felt very unwanted and pretty ignored, and when I tried to bring it up the convo would turn into "Fine I'll never ever be interested in anything else again, is that what you want?" which of course wasn't it and eventually I quit asking. ***** #3. 

THEN I made a really bad decision (although at the time I honestly didn't realize it). I figured if Dear Hubby was going to have his little hobbies and interests, and didn't seem to be all that interested in me, I would just go ahead and have interests of my own. "Nothing wrong with being your own person and having your own interests" you might say (that's what I was thinking at the time too)...but what I didn't realize was that in so choosing, I was choosing to begin expending time and energy on something that pretty much excluded my spouse. I didn't mean it to be "You can't come here" but more like "You are not interested so chances are you won't come and I am interested" so I was setting myself up to spend time and invest energy into something that did not include my spouse. BIG *****. 

As I got more interested and spent more time and had more fun, I tried to include him by talking about it--he still wasn't all that interested--and telling him about my triumphs or what I did well. He didn't see to be too phased; ***** #5 at least by now. And I got to know other people--males and females--who WERE interested in the same things I found interesting, and who wanted to spending time talking to me about our common interest; ***** #6. All things considered, the wedge was growing between Dear Hubby and I, but I don't think either of us really saw it that way or were too worried. 

Then BOOM, the OM hit. I was not prepared. I don't think he was specifically looking for someone in a vulnerable state nor was he particularly a "Playah" like some OM are, but he REALLY LIKED ME and he had no trouble whatsoever telling me what he thought or felt. It was like being hit by a truck. He did pursue me but not in the sense of "Leave your family to be with me"--in the sense of "WOW you are an amazing person and I am so utterly gobstopped I had to say something"--or again that's how it seemed to me at the time. Of COURSE I was flattered. DUH. At home it felt like "I can't take the time to make an effort for you" and OM went full bore almost right away with WOW and then poems and flowers and cards and all that. It really felt like being hit, and since I had chinked, chinked and chinked the armor, I was completely open to attack and vulnerable. 

So that was all years ago. Obviously Dear Hubby and I reconciled and we are better than ever now. But if you had asked me at the moment "why" I would not have been able to answer in a way that made utter sense and was a pretty accurate analysis. With the passage of some time and some continuing thought about it, though, the more I contemplated what happened and where I went wrong and even a little where WE went wrong, I'm like your hubby messeduplady. I am not sure I would have said I was "happy" but I don't know if I could have said what was wrong. As it was occurring I don't know if I could have said what the reason was...but as Dear Hubby and I went along and talked over things and finally shared what it was like for each of us, we pieced it together also. 

Does that make sense? 

So to answer your question, I do think most affairs have some "reason" but it's not always a mental illness or a personality disorder. I bet you MONEY that if you move forward just day by day with your spouse, recognizing his efforts today and him recognizing your efforts, that as you think about it more and more with each other you will figure it out.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

IMO, the majority of affairs, if not all, are done because the cheater is angry and resentful toward the BS. It is an act of vengence. On some level, the cheater wants to inflict damage on the BS.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> First I would like to respond to two posts that I found so offensive I nearly reported them and decided instead to answer:
> 
> 
> I find this highly offensive because rather than speaking as if disloyal spouses are imperfect human beings too, the author of this post chooses to generalize, to disparage all disloyals, to state as a fact that ALL disloyals are spoiled etc., to again state as a fact that ALL disloyals were lazy in their marriages and basically call names. This is an ad hominem (to the man) attack, meaning that rather than address the topic being discussed, this author chose to attack THE PERSON.
> ...


Well, I have to disagree. In order for you to abuse your husband as you did, and cheat on your kids, you had to be selfish as all heck.
Sounds like you are blaming your husband for your cheating and that you have rationalized your cheating in all types of ways.
Just my opinion.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> Then BOOM, the OM hit. I was not prepared. I don't think he was specifically looking for someone in a vulnerable state nor was he particularly a "Playah" like some OM are, but he REALLY LIKED ME and he had no trouble whatsoever telling me what he thought or felt. It was like being hit by a truck. He did pursue me but not in the sense of "Leave your family to be with me"--in the sense of "WOW you are an amazing person and I am so utterly gobstopped I had to say something"--or again that's how it seemed to me at the time. Of COURSE I was flattered. DUH. At home it felt like "I can't take the time to make an effort for you" and OM went full bore almost right away with WOW and then poems and flowers and cards and all that. It really felt like being hit, and since I had chinked, chinked and chinked the armor, I was completely open to attack and vulnerable.
> 
> So that was all years ago. Obviously Dear Hubby and I reconciled and we are better than ever now. But if you had asked me at the moment "why" I would not have been able to answer in a way that made utter sense and was a pretty accurate analysis. With the passage of some time and some continuing thought about it, though, the more I contemplated what happened and where I went wrong and even a little where WE went wrong, I'm like your hubby messeduplady. I am not sure I would have said I was "happy" but I don't know if I could have said what was wrong. As it was occurring I don't know if I could have said what the reason was...but as Dear Hubby and I went along and talked over things and finally shared what it was like for each of us, we pieced it together also.
> 
> Does that make sense?


I'm not clear how this was not selfish. It seems that you chose to follow the flattery because that was WOW and made you feel good, instead of doing the hard work of facing your issues with your husband and repairing the marriage and shoring up the ******. 

If you and your husband were able to reconcile and be better than new after the affair, then why didn't you work on getting to "better than new" before your affair? Why didn't you talk things over until after your affair? 

Isn't it selfish to choose a flattering OM who made you feel good about yourself instead of addressing the conflicts in your marriage? What am I not getting?


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> First I would like to respond to two posts that I found so offensive I nearly reported them and decided instead to answer:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can report a post that you don't agree with? Is this not a discussion board? I find a lot of posts attacking the OP for not listening to the advice more offensive.

Anyway, cheating is a selfish act. There is no way around that and I don't know how on earth one could argue with that fact. Cheating on someone you took vows to be loyal to is selfish because it steals that person's choices and prevents that person from living an authentic life. If you take something from someone that you don't have the right to take, well I'm sorry it offends you, but that IS selfish. 

Yes, obviously not all spouses have been selfish for their entire lives or in the marriage prior to the affair and clearly, the cheaters who show true remorse are no longer acting selfishly. Yes, people change, of course they do. But during the affair, the cheater is selfish, and their mindset prior to the A is often all about their unhappiness and their feelings. 

As for a personality flaw, or a character flaw or emotional immaturity, or whatever you want to call it. It's semantics and sometimes people are typing quickly. It's not supposed to be that literal. BUT in the moment you make the decision to stab your significant other in the back, there's something going on and it's not good. 

Cheating is the easy way out when there are much better solutions to personal or marital problems OR vulnerabilities.

I have been extremely vulnerable to an affair in the last 4 years of my marriage because believe it or not, my H was not Prince Charming and at times, he was down right emotionally abusive. As for opportunities to cheat, I happen to be tall, thin and work in an industry that requires you to be no slouch in the looks department. I get hit on and complimented by the most ridiculously attractive men. I would be lying if I said, it hadn't crossed my mind. In fact, I recall having the opportunity to go out for coffee with someone in my industry last year that could have probably helped my career. We dated many years ago before my H. This man looks like an older version of Channing Tatum (Google him). Even my best friend, who knew the state of my marriage at the time, told me to stay far away and you know what, I knew she was right so I decided not to meet him and instead we spoke on the phone. You and only you have the power to say NO. I certainly own my choices and my choice was always to say NO.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

Yes, I am a bit confused. Posts that we disagree with and have a sensitivity to(probably because they hit close to home) are reportable? Really?
Affaircare, you might want to subscribe to my blog "Liamcare"(sub titled "StopLying to Yourself Care").


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## Vegemite (Apr 12, 2012)

Married&Confused said:


> i'll tell you what my counselor told me. first, the majority of the times there are two sides of the issue. there's no such thing as "i was giving him/her everything".
> 
> second, most cheating is because there is something lacking EMOTIONALLY in the relationship and very rarely because of lack of sex. one partner isn't getting their needs met by the other. it may be that the cheating partner stopped meeting the other partner's needs first and it just took a downward spiral.
> 
> but at some time, someone else started meeting those needs and it ends up as a PA or EA.


With all due respect, your MC is oversimplifying it. Painting all cases with the same brush. On this site and elsewhere, you find plenty of cases where the WS is plain selfish and has high narcissistic tendancies. I'm sure none of the BS's on this site were perfect in their M. I don't claim I was. But I believe I was pretty good. 

I've had 2 separate MC's tried to feed me that "2 sides to every story [email protected]". Sometimes there is, I hear you. BUT many times there's not. 

And how could the MC even possibly know unless they explore the affair and the CS first. Sorry, very sore point with me.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

Vegemite said:


> With all due respect, your MC is oversimplifying it. Painting all cases with the same brush. On this site and elsewhere, you find plenty of cases where the WS is plain selfish and has high narcissistic tendancies. I'm sure none of the BS's on this site were perfect in their M. I don't claim I was. But I believe I was pretty good.
> 
> I've had 2 separate MC's tried to feed me that "2 sides to every story [email protected]". Sometimes there is, I hear you. BUT many times there's not.
> 
> And how could the MC even possibly know unless they explore the affair and the CS first. Sorry, very sore point with me.


Well, there are two sides to every story. Unfortunately, most of the time, the cheater's is inaccurate due to self deception and character flaws.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

BigLiam said:


> Well, there are two sides to every story. Unfortunately, most of the time, the cheater's is inaccurate due to self deception and character flaws.


No matter how many sides, no matter what the story, no matter how the BS may have contributed to the problems in the marriage, the cheater does not _have _to cheat. It's a choice, and not the only choice.

In a terrible marriage, people have the option to work on it, separate and consider next steps, or divorce. Someone who is miserable in a marriage may be more susceptible to cheating because of the state of their marriage, but cheating is still a choice. A selfish choice. Conversely, there is nothing unselfish, loving, or giving about cheating.


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## Tainted Halo (Jun 14, 2012)

It can be a number of reasons; loneliness, being attracted to someone, or the other person showing attention to the individual that is lacking at home, sometimes opportunity, strong sexual urges that can't be met at home. There can be a number of reasons it just doesn't happen.. At one point in my life I cheated on my husband and he also has as well


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Low self-esteem can also be a contributory factor. It was in my case.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

On a radio show the other day , a very well respected counselor, theologian, stated that all the many, cheating husbands he had counseled stated that their affair partner had made them "feel like a man".

I am not really sure what this means, but it sounds like they merely could not handle having their ego stroked. What stood out though was that he said all, not many or most but all.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

chapparal said:


> On a radio show the other day , a very well respected counselor, theologian, stated that all the many, cheating husbands he had counseled stated that their affair partner had made them "feel like a man".
> 
> I am not really sure what this means, but it sounds like they merely could not handle having their ego stroked. What stood out though was that he said all, not many or most but all.


I didn't hear the radio show but I could get the same universal answer if I phrased the question to the cheating husband using a leading question such as: 'Did your affair partner make you feel like a man?"


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

messeduplady said:


> Sara- that is really interesting about the faithful spouse giving more, seriously can't wait for that book to get here. I do find the fact that I was organising loads of nice events/nights away/party for our "significant" birthdays that happened at the time of the EA really goading. Everything we did around that time, however little actual contact he had with her, is now forever soiled and spoilt.


I more than agree. 

I have heard of people cheating while the faithful spouse is a caretaker to their spouses aging parent.

What excuse does that cheater have, and how bad can the person taking care of a dying in-law be.

IMO, cheaters are like spoiled children. As soon as things are not going their way they act out, instead of trying to work out a mutually agreeable solution to a problem or issue.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

]I can only speak to what my H admits to and what I personally see in OUR situation. Everyone is different.

these are the factors that presented us with a problem

1*.Ego, Ego and Ego.*
2. Selfishness
3.Lack of boundaries
4. Need for affirmation
5. Being too career oriented. If it didnt involve his job(like she did for example) he simply wasnt interested. SHE was the job. 
6. arrogance and self importance

Again, this is our experience and some of the things he is working thru w/ IC.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Acabado said:


> The act of cheating is selfish no doubt but I have to disagree with the above comment. I know of a woman, a natural born giver for her whole life which one day went down the slipery slope, got all hooked up in a fantasy life, lost touch of reality and finnaly lost ALL. She betrayed herself, first. We love label people, this help us when we have no attachments with them to mark them permanently for one time in the life act and define them forever for this, I understand it, no need to feel any kind of empathy.


No one labeled, the woman you speak of or any cheater. The cheaters slap the label on themselves. 

If this woman was unhappy, she could have divorced or sought counseling. Instead she had an affair. Wrong solution. 

I know she will claim she was swept away. Hogwash. Most cheaters have been either unconsciously or consciously planning to cheat for years. 

I think most cheaters are in denial about this factor. 

My own STBEH at least admitted he was looking and open to an affair. I think that is the truth with most but most are in denial about that.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Already Gone said:


> Hey messedup
> There was another thread not too long ago discussing can anybody cheat or can any man cheat. Even in a great marriage, I think almost any person can cheat if given the perfect circumstance/situation, especially if there are no repercussions.
> 
> For me… I have never cheated, but I came close a couple of times over a 20 year period, but I backed out each time. The women weren’t that assertive and I was also shy at the time.
> ...


Who isn't flattered when a nice looking human flirts with you. I bet your wife is too.

That's no justification to cheat. 

To my mind the only time cheating can be justified is a revenge affair after discovering an infidelity. 

At that time, the betrayed spouse is in shock and likely has PTSD and low self esteem directly related to their partners sudden betrayal. 

The people who trusted their spouse the most also take it the hardest. I did. I trusted my spouse implicitly. 

I chose not to debase myself by having a revenge affair although the opportunity with his single best friend (frenemy to my mind) was there.

Still, if a betrayed spouse cheats they have a good reason for being out of their mind. This sort of affair should be readily forgiven because it is much easier to understand the root cause.

The original cheating spouse's root cause is much more ingrained in their inner core, the cheating is not prompted by an outside traumatic factor.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

BigLiam said:


> IMO, the majority of affairs, if not all, are done because the cheater is angry and resentful toward the BS. It is an act of vengence. On some level, the cheater wants to inflict damage on the BS.


Yes. My spouse told a counselor exactly this. 

But I was resentful about things, too. His frequent what I then thought were men's camping trips and boy's nights out. 

I asked for counseling to discuss the frequency of these, of course he refused. 

I felt neglected. It caused arguments. 

Still, I did not cheat despite opportunity.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

I don't believe resentment is the initial factor but it becomes one of the major justifications for having and continuing the affair. But I do believe that the ego gratifying attention received is by far the most seductive initial factor for the boundary weak (a sign of a character challenged spouse) spouse.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

chapparal said:


> On a radio show the other day , a very well respected counselor, theologian, stated that all the many, cheating husbands he had counseled stated that their affair partner had made them "feel like a man".
> 
> I am not really sure what this means, but it sounds like they merely could not handle having their ego stroked. What stood out though was that he said all, not many or most but all.


Interesting comment by the counselor. Thank you for posting it. 

It's interesting my STBEH said the OW made him feel flattered and just her interest in him made him feel good about himself. 

Yet, the reality was that this OW was badmouthing her faithful spouse a spouse whom she claimed neglected her because he worked hard to pay for the lavish lifestyle she insisted upon.

She told my husband her husband had a hairy body. She wanted to puke when they had sex.
She tried to avoid sex with him, he was balding, dressed like a slob because he wore old jeans and a t shirt when not working, and on and on. 

This unsuspecting husband the OW says all these mean things about is wealthy, faithful and nice. He always seemed dressed well when I saw him, and he seemed equal to her looks wise.

So the OW's husband wanted to dress comfortably when home. So what?

Did my STBEH not realize that it wouldn't be long before she was thinking the same about him. 

My STEH dresses exactly the way the OW claimed to hate, when not working, or socializing, too.

He also has some bad habits typically only revealed in a long term marriage. Like burping and farting too much. 

I laughed when he did those things and said it was normal and natural. I have a lot of brothers who did worse things than that so I was not shocked by it.

I bet the OW wouldn't find it funny. She was way too prissy and into perfection.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Exactly why affairs are entirely based on fantasy. The APs only see each other at their best, when they are made up, dressed nice, etc. The bad habits aren't seen because they don't live with them day in, day out. Just like when a WW wears sexy lingerie for her OM that she never normally wears. Real life doesn't intrude into their relationship, and that's part of the reason 97% of these relationships fail.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Yeah I'll bet most OM would be thrilled to death if they got to see their married woman's bloody tampons in their bathroom trash bin.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

morituri said:


> Yeah I'll bet most OM would be thrilled to death if they got to see their married woman's bloody tampons in their bathroom trash bin.


Yep. I wouldn't think that if my H had to walk into the bathroom after his AP had stomach 'issues' that it would have been too attractive. Or say if he had to hold her hair while she puked from the flu.....:scratchhead:

Conversely, I dont know that his AP would have found him so chase worthy had she had to put up with his wicked ass family or had to clean the floor around the toilet b/c his 'aim' is off. 

Now, that there's sexy, right???:rofl:


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

morituri said:


> I don't believe resentment is the initial factor but it becomes one of the major justifications for having and continuing the affair.


I agree, in most if not all cases.. resentment has very little to do with the decision to have an affair....

They already know where they want to go, that decision was already made deep down in their brains. Resentment is just fuel to get there. I believe resentment is primarily 'constructed'. It's a means to enable the pursuit of a primal desire. Part of and nurtured in the rewriting of history stages. This anger is fuel to burn off guilt and plow through lingering moral boundries. Resentment acts as pre-cheat motivational speech. It's the self enabler.


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## WhoIsIt (Dec 28, 2010)

It seems from this thread that there is not one answer, which is about what you'd expect. Humans are all different, and while we can find trends and common behaviors, there's never just going to be one reason.

Messeduplady, your situation sounds really familiar to me. Scarily so, if it weren't gender-reversed.

My wife still says she isn't sure why she let things go as far as they did, except that the OM really stroked her ego and made her feel very special. She won't say this, but I'm sure he made her feel sexy and naughty in that "new boyfriend" sense. 

An important point is that marriage problems don't cause affairs. I think of a strong marriage like a kind of armor. Someone with "game" will try to find ****** in the armor, and may succeed even if you think the marriage is fantastic. Really good players will create false ******, making the WS believe things are worse than they are.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> Conversely, I don't know that his AP would have found him so chase worthy had she had to put up with his wicked ass family or had to clean the floor around the toilet b/c his 'aim' is off.
> 
> Now, that there's sexy, right???:rofl:


:lol: Yeah! She would be so hot for him when she saw the few Hershey's kisses he left on her toilet rim as a gift for her. :rofl:


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

morituri said:


> :lol: Yeah! She would be so hot for him when she saw the few Hershey's kisses he left on her toilet rim as a gift for her. :rofl:


Oh yeah! You know it. I'll bet she'd set his email or his text on fire(like she did often) when she woke up to his morning breath or he woke her up with his farts....I'm telling you I know I cant resist when I get this side of him. 

Or him having to put up with her kids whining and having to deal with her b*tching about the grass needing to be mowed and the trash needing to go out. Man, that would make him sooooo HOT!


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

BigLiam said:


> Yes, I am a bit confused. Posts that we disagree with and have a sensitivity to(probably because they hit close to home) are reportable? Really?
> Affaircare, you might want to subscribe to my blog "Liamcare"(sub titled "StopLying to Yourself Care").


I hope you don't mind but I would like to clarify something that does not answer the original post but I think does have to do with the topic at hand. 

No I would not report a post for "disagreeing" with it. That would be unnecessary and pretty immature. However, for those who have not read them, here are Posting Guidelines - Forum Rules which anyone can find by looking in Talk About Marriage »About TalkAboutMarriage.com »Forum Guidelines (see there...near the bottom?) 

The VERY FIRST posting guideline - forum rule is: 

1. Treat others on the forum with dignity and respect.
Personal attacks, hate speech, racist or sexist statements or attacks, sexual harassment, explicit sexual comments, promoting violence, will not be tolerated.

and number two is much like it: 

2. You are responsible for anything you post on this website. We do not delete posts or accounts, but we give you the ability to delete your own posts at any time, unless you are banned from the website. See #14 for more information.

If a disloyal spouse were to come on here and suggest that it is a FACT--use the name of someone who is considered an "expert"--and say " ALL LOYALS are lazy, neglectful, controlling, abusive jerks " (remember this is hypothetical here), I would be willing to bet that people would be very upset and be up in arms! That's because if the person who came on and wrote that actually HAD a lazy, neglectful, controlling, abusive jerk of a loyal spouse...that doesn't mean ALL are! Further, it wasn't stated as an opinion or with any respect, but was stated as a FACT and with the supposed backing of an industry "expert". It's neither respectful (see guideline #1) nor is it taking responsibility for their own writing (see guideline #2). 

Now I get it that what I did was indeed selfish. I am not now nor have I ever said it wasn't selfish. But do you want what's best for yourself? Do you look out for your own best-interests? Do you have some measure of self-esteem and self-worth? We are told over and over again "you deserve better" and "do what makes you happy"--so at some point I crossed from healthy self-interest and being my own person...to being self-centered. The question or issue is not "Is an affair selfish?" Of course it is! The question to ask a disloyal is "Looking back on it now, can you see the point (or a point or several points) where it crossed the line from being healthy self-interest to being dysfunctional selfishness? If so, what safeguards are you putting in place now to protect yourself from your own weaknesses? What can you and will you and do you do differently so that line is not crossed?" 

See the difference folks? Saying all loyals are "this, that and the other thing" is disrespectful just the same as calling all disloyals are "this, that or the other thing." We can disagree all you like--I have no qualms about that whatsoever--but here's my issue: state is as your OPINION and maybe say something like "..many" or "most"--or "...in my experience, my disloyal did this" because then that does indicate "HEY I'm sharing what happened to me and you may get something out of it." 

And meanwhile, why is everyone focusing on the fact that I considered reporting posts that disregarded posting guidelines - forum rules anyway? How about focusing on the part about "as you two work it out together and talk it through together, you may also figure it out together"? Or how about focusing on "...can you see the point where it crossed the line from being healthy self-interest to being dysfunctional selfishness?" THAT is the more meaty part worth discussing (IMHO)


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

canttrustu said:


> Oh yeah! You know it. I'll bet she'd set his email or his text on fire(like she did often) when she woke up to his morning breath or he woke her up with his farts....I'm telling you I know I cant resist when I get this side of him.
> 
> Or him having to put up with her kids whining and having to deal with her b*tching about the grass needing to be mowed and the trash needing to go out. Man, that would make him sooooo HOT!


You're forgetting the hottest thing of all! The collector calls when the water is about to be turned off because he spent the money at the bar instead. 

YEEEES BABEEE...YES!


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> I hope you don't mind but I would like to clarify something that does not answer the original post but I think does have to do with the topic at hand.
> 
> No I would not report a post for "disagreeing" with it. That would be unnecessary and pretty immature. However, for those who have not read them, here are Posting Guidelines - Forum Rules which anyone can find by looking in Talk About Marriage »About TalkAboutMarriage.com »Forum Guidelines (see there...near the bottom?)
> 
> ...



I still fail to see how saying that all cheaters are selfish is offensive (except to a cheater) or engaging in hate speech or a personal attack. Don't we all agree that cheating is selfish? It's like any other immoral behaviour, are we not going to judge it right or wrong? 

During an A, the cheater is selfish. Perhaps prior, perhaps after, but perhaps not after as they all respond differently to exposure. But during, a cheater is always engaging in selfish behaviour, with little regard for their spouse. I don't understand how that goes against the forum rules. If it did, there are A LOT of posts that go against the forums rules. I've seen people called doormat, pu$$y, etc.




Affaircare said:


> If a disloyal spouse were to come on here and suggest that it is a FACT--use the name of someone who is considered an "expert"--and say " ALL LOYALS are lazy, neglectful, controlling, abusive jerks " (remember this is hypothetical here), I would be willing to bet that people would be very upset and be up in arms! That's because if the person who came on and wrote that actually HAD a lazy, neglectful, controlling, abusive jerk of a loyal spouse...that doesn't mean ALL are! Further, it wasn't stated as an opinion or with any respect, but was stated as a FACT and with the supposed backing of an industry "expert". It's neither respectful (see guideline #1) nor is it taking responsibility for their own writing (see guideline #2).


But you will not find an expert that will label all betrayed spouses because their behaviour prior to the cheating varies. Some betrayed spouses were neglectful but research also suggests that affairs happen in good marriages too. I believe Peggy Vaughn wrote extensively on that subject. But again, the behaviour of the spouse during the cheating is easily labelled selfish because one thing ALL affairs have in common is dishonesty and betrayal. No two ways around that fact.

As for the expert quoted in the other post you found offensive, that was Dr. Shirley Glass and she was highly respected and well-known in her field. She was also considered to be one of the world's experts in infidelity and her book is often recommended to couples dealing with infidelity (I myself own a copy). I don't see how quoting her words on a discussion board pertaining to the very subject she spent years studying can be deemed offensive (unless of course you are an ex or current disloyal and it strikes a nerve, I suppose).



Affaircare said:


> Now I get it that what I did was indeed selfish. I am not now nor have I ever said it wasn't selfish. But do you want what's best for yourself? Do you look out for your own best-interests? Do you have some measure of self-esteem and self-worth? We are told over and over again "you deserve better" and "do what makes you happy"--so at some point I crossed from healthy self-interest and being my own person...to being self-centered. The question or issue is not "Is an affair selfish?" Of course it is! The question to ask a disloyal is "Looking back on it now, can you see the point (or a point or several points) where it crossed the line from being healthy self-interest to being dysfunctional selfishness? If so, what safeguards are you putting in place now to protect yourself from your own weaknesses? What can you and will you and do you do differently so that line is not crossed?"


Why of course people want what is best for themselves, but when their happiness comes at the expensive of others, it becomes selfish. So it still remains that ALL cheaters are selfish. I'm still failing to see how this doesn't just further confirm what some of us have been suggesting 

So yes, while agree with what you wrote in the paragraph above, it actually seems to illustrate the fact that cheaters are selfish. And of course, the cheater can change and of course, they can learn from their mistakes, if they so choose. Absolutely. No argument there.





Affaircare said:


> See the difference folks? Saying all loyals are "this, that and the other thing" is disrespectful just the same as calling all disloyals are "this, that or the other thing." We can disagree all you like--I have no qualms about that whatsoever--but here's my issue: state is as your OPINION and maybe say something like "..many" or "most"--or "...in my experience, my disloyal did this" because then that does indicate "HEY I'm sharing what happened to me and you may get something out of it."




I do see the difference and still maintain that while cheating, they are all selfish. I've read that in every single book I've read on infidelity at this point, so it's not exactly that far-fetched of a statement. 



Affaircare said:


> And meanwhile, why is everyone focusing on the fact that I considered reporting posts that disregarded posting guidelines - forum rules anyway? How about focusing on the part about "as you two work it out together and talk it through together, you may also figure it out together"? Or how about focusing on "...can you see the point where it crossed the line from being healthy self-interest to being dysfunctional selfishness?" THAT is the more meaty part worth discussing (IMHO)


I don't think we were focusing on that fact only as I believe I responded to your other points earlier as well. The question was merely asked and pondered because it seemed quite puzzling that on a board full of betrayed spouses, that it was suggested we were not permitted to call our cheating spouses all selfish! Good luck with that, I say.  That was the tamest of words I called him on D-day and I'm sure I used words he never heard me use before! 

Anyway, I do find most of your posts well-thought out and informative and I enjoy reading them. However, I do disagree with you on this issue, it seems.


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## hunter411 (Jun 4, 2012)

I can only comment from my recent experience. I think there were several factors. Her depression, hormonal changes, the fog, and my lack of enforcing boundaries. Ultimately, I blame her decision for doing it. As far as our marriage, almost 0 problems. No marriage is safe without solid boundaries and communication.


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## messeduplady (May 31, 2012)

As always on here; thanks for all the comments and viewpoints. It really does help clear up the thought processes in my head and shows me that I'm not losing it completely. And as was said in an earlier post - maybe the answer is that there isn't an answer?!!


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

messeduplady said:


> And as was said in an earlier post - maybe the answer is that there isn't an answer?!!


There is an answer or answers, but the ambiguity of them makes the search for understanding "why" very frustrating and ultimately an exercise in self defeating mental mastrabation.

In short, absolutely. Every person has a reason they cheat. *The reason is... THEY WANT TO.* Everything else, is a matter of finding a good rationalization or justification to allow themselves.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> I hope you don't mind but I would like to clarify something that does not answer the original post but I think does have to do with the topic at hand.
> 
> No I would not report a post for "disagreeing" with it. That would be unnecessary and pretty immature. However, for those who have not read them, here are Posting Guidelines - Forum Rules which anyone can find by looking in Talk About Marriage »About TalkAboutMarriage.com »Forum Guidelines (see there...near the bottom?)
> 
> ...


Stating a personal opinion that all cheaters are selfish is far from disrespectful and was not a personal attack. 

Was your post a personal attack over semantics? You state in your own post an affair is selfish. I am confused by the word play.

If I were posting on the reconciliation board I would agree that my post was out of place. I was not. I was posting on the infidelity forum and you as a counselor should understand we are all raw here. We do not need to be attacked by someone who may be struggling with their own infidelity issues.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> Or how about focusing on "...can you see the point where it crossed the line from being healthy self-interest to being dysfunctional selfishness?" THAT is the more meaty part worth discussing (IMHO)


I love it when people lob softballs...

Healthy self-interest = Get Divorced, _then_ pursue relationship.

Dysfunctional selfishness = Pursue relationship (Affair), _then_ Get divorced (maybe?, maybe not?)

There's the line.... It's what comes before and after the word _then_.


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