# I'm a coward



## Troubled in Tennessee

So...
I've been reading all of the threads on this site for months now. I still haven't figured out all of the acronyms, but it has been a helpful place for me to read and see that I'm not alone.
This may be lengthy, but necessary. Here's the deal:
My wife and I have been married for 20 years. Just celebrated a few weeks ago with a romantic trip. We have two teenage boys: 18 and 14. We've had a solid marriage, ups and downs, a few major blowups, but we'd always get to the edge of the cliff, look over and see all of the wreckage below and decide to work things out. We've had two stints in marriage counseling, ironically at years 7 and 14. Something about an itch?
We have always trusted each other. We've been best friends. I'm 43 and she's 44. She is absolutely gorgeous and has aged very well. We met at the end of college and married fairly young. I'm deeply in love with her and I'm proud of the history that we've written together. Our boys are healthy, well-adjusted young men and she and I both have decent careers. We're not rich by any means, but we've been able to pay our mortgage and go on the occasional vacation.

Last summer, I caught my wife with another guy at a bar. She and I had gotten into one of our fights. Our pattern historically has been that we argue and then one of us shuts down. We retreat and have a Mexican standoff until one of us (usually me) apologizes and makes everything better. It's like "do anything to just get everything back to normal...an eternal quest for homeostatic bliss.
Well, that night, she invited me to meet her for happy hour after work. I went home after work, made supper for the boys and kind of dawdled because we were in a fight. But, I showed up at the bar. I noticed that she was talking to this muscular guy. I said, "who's that guy?" "Oh, nobody, just some guy that I met". When I would go in from the patio to get a beer, I would notice them talking to each other. When I would come back out to the patio, they would split up. Again, "who's that guy?" "Nobody. Just chill out".
I said, "I'm ready to go home." She said, "oh okay. I'm just going to catch up with Vicky for a few more minutes. I'll be right behind you." So, I go out to my car and decide to wait for her because she'd had a lot to drink and I wanted her to at least follow my car home. After 15 minutes, she still hadn't come out to her car. So, I go into the bar and she and Mr. muscles have moved in from the patio and are now sitting with each other at the bar. I was hurt and fuming. I just looked at her and said, "Why?". She just ignored me. I went home. Just pizzed off.
I waited at home for her to drive home and by 12:30, still no sign of her. Again, I've never had an issue with trust. Neither of us had. So, I decide to go back to the bar and drag her home. When I walked in the bar, they were still sitting together. He was rubbing her back and she had her head on his shoulder. I'm friends with the bartenders and one of them just looked at me and mouthed, "sorry". I walked up to her and said, "honey, it's time to go home". She tells the guy, "sorry. I guess I need to leave." She gets up and starts walking out. I just look at the guy and said, "What the F?" He was too drunk to respond.
That night was the most painful night of our marriage. She called me every name in the book. Everything from "you're too controlling. You're such an a$$hole. You make me watch all of your tv shows. I don't even know how to use the remote. You decide where we go out to eat. You're a control freak. Everything has to revolve around you. F you. I want a divorce. I know you're smart but you have to let everyone know it...and on and on and on."
I was in tears. Rage just erupted from her. I had just caught her canoodling with a guy at the bar and years worth of every shortcoming, or perceived shortcoming I have is thrown in my face.
The next morning, she is embarrassed. She sobers up, calls in sick from work and we talk that night after I get home. She says, "I'm so sorry. It was wrong of me to do that to you. I don't even remember what I said to you. I was too drunk to remember anything." I don't doubt that if I hadn't gone back to the bar, she would have gone home with the guy. She was apologetic about hanging all over the guy and lying to me. She said that she didn't go out looking to pick up a guy, but the attention felt good, he was attractive and she didn't stop it.
A couple of months later, I find out from the bartenders that it wasn't the first time. She had been in the bar at least two other times making out with guys. They were all bigger than I am. I'm 6' 200 lbs, but not a real muscular guy. She even left the bar with a guy one night. She doesn't know that I know about the other times. As I've read on here, the cheater's paradox dictates that she will only cop to what she knows that I know, right?
So, for the next month after that night, we had some really hard, frank discussions. She said that she's clearly going through something. She feels like I smother her, and I'm too needy. I started seeing a counselor to work on my issues (being needy, smothering, etc.) but she was unwilling to go to a counselor for her issues nor was she willing to see a marriage counselor together with me.
About a month later, she finally buys a spiral notebook and suggests that we start "journaling" our feelings in that. That has been a god send. She was remorseful, owned her issues, wrote some really introspective stuff. It has become a way for us to communicate in a safe space. It diffuses potential blow ups because we have agreed upon ground rules that we can be honest in what we write.
I did some soul searching and was able to forgive her. I forgave her for the night that she was all over the guy in front of me and, unbeknownst to her, I forgave her for the other nights that I had heard about from people I trust. I chalked it up to mid-life crisis, alcohol, a few nights of bad decisions, whatever. You all can crush me for that, but it was my choice. While I've never cheated "all the way", I'm sure that over 20 years, there's been a night or two where I wouldn't have looked too good to her if she had seen me acting flirty. I really don't think she went all the way with any of these guys, but I'm guessing they made out and probably groped...maybe a handy.
Anyway, I just decided, "let's move on and start over". So, over the next 6-8 months, things were going great. She was more attentive to my needs and I worked through things with my counselor so that I found activities that I enjoy: playing golf, tennis, hobbies that I could enjoy independently of her. She needs space. I like togetherness. I feel like we've found a good compromise. Again, a few nights of bad decisions, for me, isn't worth torpedoing my life, marriage, 20 year history with the woman that I love more than life itself.
Then, I got blindsided. She and I are on AT&T's unlimited talk, text and data. We've had it for years and have been grandfathered in. But, my 18 year old and 14 year old have limited plans.
So, about 4 months ago, I got a text or email, I can't remember which, from At&T saying that my son was about to go over his 3 GB per month. "Click here for more information". So, I clicked. It pulled up all of our accounts. I noticed that she had TONS of text messages on her number. So, I started digging. You guessed it. Starting in January, she has been texting a male co-worker.
She works for a major insurance company in an administrative role. I am in sales and travel a fair amount (once or twice a month, ranging from just one night trips to week-long trips, depending on the need). I looked at the text messages and it was a number I didn't recognize. I looked up the number through an app and learned that it's her co-worker. He's 32, married, two kids. He's a former football player and personal trainer who now sells insurance. Again, lots of things at play: first and foremost, utter betrayal. Second, every insecurity is triggered. Again, with a muscle head. The pattern of the text messages is super troubling. She has complained to me that, when I travel, I text her way too much. She feels smothered and says, "I don't need to know every detail of what you're doing. Save some stuff to talk about when you get home." But, I'm not a wild a$$. When I travel, I may go to dinner with a client, but then I go back to my hotel. I'm not out late boozing or hound dogging it after women. I'm pretty tame. I text her because I miss her and want to hear from her. I want to share my life with her. It hurts when she tells me that I'm smothering her. Meanwhile, she's texting this guy ad nauseum. 
I notice that it's every time I travel. I looked through the phone records and it's clearly coordinated. It's clear that she tells him when I'm out of town. It starts at like 6 a.m. and continues throughout the day and goes until as late as midnight. Then it starts back up early in the morning. They even text each other all day, even though they work in the same office, like two cubicles away!
I am TORN UP!
It's been going on for 7 months. So, all of the work we've done to rebuild trust, spend time together, it's all out the window. She is lying and being deceitful and I'm crushed.
But, here's the thing: I am a coward. I haven't confronted her about it and I've known for 4 months. I'm afraid of her. If I bring it up, she'll go crazy. "I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU WERE SNOOPING THROUGH MY PHONE RECORDS". I'm worried that if I bring it up, she'll go into a rage and say she wants a divorce.
I'm torn. I can confront the guy and tell him, "you will send my wife a text stating that you are feeling guilty and this needs to stop. You will not tell my wife we've had this conversation. If you fail to end it, if you tell my wife we've spoken, I will mail the phone records to your wife as I'm sure she is unaware about your relationship with my wife." But, if I do that, it might end it, but she's established a pattern and it will likely just happen again with someone else.
At best, they are having an emotional affair and it's inappropriate. At worst, it's much more. I'm talking hundreds of texts per day when I'm gone. When I'm in town, they text each other frequently, but do it during the work day. He never texts her during the evening. She has her phone locked down and the one time I was able to look, she's deleted everything from him. There's not a trace.
If I confront her, she'll be shocked that I know. She'll be P.O'd that I snooped. She'll say it's because of me somehow. I'll get blamed. I know it.
She says she loves me. We have fun together. We have a great sex life. We garden and play tennis and eat and drink wine on our patio. It's a nice life.
My options are limited.
1) Just try and ignore it. Quit looking at phone records or checking on her texts to see where she is (I have that capability on our texts; it locates her phone). Just accept that this is the price I have to pay for the life I've got.
2) Bring it up to the other guy and threaten to tell his wife to put an end to it, but recognize that it's just a band-aid.
3) Confront her and be prepared for whatever befalls me.

Right now, I think I'm too big of a coward to confront her. I'm torn up. I'm not sleeping well. I try and put a good face on around her, but she senses that I'm unhappy. I've re-started seeing my counselor and she is helping me think through my options. But, ultimately, I'm just sad. I hate that my loving wife of 20 years is being sneaky, seeking attention outside of our marriage, lying, and then telling me that I "text too much" while she's sending him hundreds of texts while I'm out of town.

I know many of you have been though this. I'm sure I'll hear, "leave her butt and move on" and "quit being such a pu$$y", but it's not that simple. There's a lot at stake in this. As I've said, I've looked over the edge of the cliff and it's not pretty, what lies below. Plus, I hope this doesn't offend some of you, but it probably will. The VAST majority of friends and acquaintances that I have who are divorced are MISERABLE. They gnaw on the bone and can't let it go. Even those who remarry are alway living with the ghost of their ex-wife. It taints their new marriage. Especially when you have kids together. Your lives are forever intertwined. And, maybe I'm reading too much into the future and predicting that she'll flip out and want a divorce. Perhaps when I confront her, it will be a wake up call and she'll finally go to counseling and address whatever issues she's got going on. I can't believe she's so stupid to be doing this with a co-worker and jeopardizing her career.

I'm torn up. My first post. Please handle with kid gloves. I guess I just needed to write all of this and share it with you. Without knowing, many of you have been helpful to me, even if it's just knowing that I'm not alone.

Thanks,
Troubled in Tennessee


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## GusPolinski

Two things...

1) Your wife is a serial cheater.

2) I agree w/ you. You're a coward.

That said, you can change BOTH of these things by making your wife your ex-wife. I mean... what do you _really_ have to lose other than a remorseless, serial cheater?


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## Troubled in Tennessee

Thanks Gus. That's helpful.


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## GusPolinski

Troubled in Tennessee said:


> Thanks Gus. That's helpful.


Oh I've got more. Right now I'm just "kneading the dough", so to speak.


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## GusPolinski

What kind of cell phones do you and your wife use?


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## Troubled in Tennessee

iphone 6 plus


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## Thound

Wow sorry you're here. Seems to me you have 3 options. 1 open marriage. 2 Life life as a culckold. 3 Divorce her sorry azz. If it were me I would go with option 3. I would let the OMs wife know ASAP. Then confront her. Let her get mad. SO WHAT! You really need to grow a set. Women want a strong man and right now you come across as weak. Sorry if that hurts, but I do want to help you grow a spine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski

Troubled in Tennessee said:


> iphone 6 plus


To be clear, you _each_ use an iPhone 6 Plus?

Do you use the same Apple iTunes/iCloud account w/ both phones?

What kind of phones do your kids use? If they use iPhones as well, are their iPhones linked to the same Apple iTunes/iCloud account that either of you use w/ your phones?

Are there any iPads, iPods, Macs, Macbooks, or other Apple devices in your household?


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## Troubled in Tennessee

She and I each use iPhone 6 plus. Oldest boy, iPhone 5. Youngest boy flip phone. We all have individual iTunes. She's deleted all texts from him. She turned off texting option on her iPad last fall and put passcodes on everything after I snooped and confronted her about something I found that sounded fishy. Nobody backs up to iCloud. I've thought through how to possibly get a hold of the ACTUAL text messages, although I'm sure it's nothing I really want to see.
But, she could give me the "we're just friends" bullcrap.


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## Pluto2

Troubled,

I am so sorry you're here. Scared of actually taking action.

I was where you are now a few years ago with my ex-also a serial cheater. Few things feel more demoralizing than realizing that your spouse, the one who vowed to love you for ever, considers you a peace of inter-changeable meat. That feeling is not permanent.

Listen to Gus when he gives you advice about phones. He's fabulous.


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## BetrayedDad

Troubled in Tennessee said:


> I'm sure I'll hear, "leave her butt and move on" and "quit being such a pu$$y", but it's not that simple.


That's usually my go to speech so since you've already decided that it's not for you I have an alternative.

If you can't beat them join them. Go have a revenge affair. Why should she have all the fun? 


1) She openly emasculates you in front other men.

2) She's clearly a serial cheat who has no respect for you.

3) She's obviously fvcking this coworker, don't be an idiot to think otherwise.

4) You're admittedly too cowardly to threaten divorce or leave her.


So what's left?!? You're going to be resentful anyway at least you get some on the side. I wouldn't even bother hiding it frankly.

Your wife is a POS. So if you want to stay married to a POS because you're too chicken sh!t to do otherwise then treat her like the sh!t she is. 

She already treats you like sh!t.....


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## Ikaika

Unless you do options 2 & 3, you will be forever troubled in TN and miserable and will affect both your mental and physical health. At some point you have to do what is right for you and your boys. I hate to say it but she has made her decision. Assume every situation to be different, i.e., don't look at your acquaintances marriage and divorces, focus on yours. 

You need to take action, it really is for the best. I wish you all the best, but more time will not make it easier nor will more time give her an opportunity to change without you taking action. Do options 2 & 3 today.


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## Lloyd Dobler

Troubled in Tennessee said:


> She and I each use iPhone 6 plus. Oldest boy, iPhone 5. Youngest boy flip phone. We all have individual iTunes. She's deleted all texts from him. She turned off texting option on her iPad last fall and put passcodes on everything after I snooped and confronted her about something I found that sounded fishy. Nobody backs up to iCloud. I've thought through how to possibly get a hold of the ACTUAL text messages, although I'm sure it's nothing I really want to see.
> But, she could give me the "we're just friends" bullcrap.


Really, what's the point of getting the actual text messages? I think you know everything you need to know about your wife already. At least enough to decide that the best option is divorce. Yeah, it's going to hurt, but you need to pull off that bandage and get it over with.


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## Pluto2

BetrayedDad said:


> That's usually my go to speech so since you've already decided that it's not for you I have an alternative.
> 
> If you can't beat them join them. Go have a revenge affair. Why should she have all the fun?
> 
> 
> 1) She openly emasculates you in front other men.
> 
> 2) She's clearly a serial cheat who has no respect for you.
> 
> 3) She's obviously fvcking this coworker, don't be an idiot to think otherwise.
> 
> 4) You too admittedly cowardly to threaten divorce or leave her.
> 
> 
> So what's left?!? You're going to be resentful anyway at least you get some on the side. I wouldn't even bother hiding it frankly.
> 
> You've wife is a POS. So if you want to stay married to a POS because you're too chicken sh!t to do otherwise then treat her like the sh!t she is.
> 
> She already treats you like sh!t.....


Don't listen to this. Revenge affairs just wind up hurting more people.

I understand you don't want to divorce (at least not right now). So your goal is to stop the A, correct?


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## BetrayedDad

GusPolinski said:


> What kind of cell phones do you and your wife use?


Does it matter except him finding the "On" button so he can call a divorce lawyer?

I don't think anyone doubts this vile woman is getting plowed like a snow bank except maybe the OP.


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## Yeswecan

Sorry you are here. Time to collect all info you can, confront with evidence and have the D paper in hand. Your W can flip all she likes. She has been snowballing your for months if not years.

BTW, you are not a coward. You are a guy who needs a bit of direction out of a mess he did not create.


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## GusPolinski

Troubled in Tennessee said:


> She and I each use iPhone 6 plus. Oldest boy, iPhone 5. Youngest boy flip phone. We all have individual iTunes. She's deleted all texts from him. She turned off texting option on her iPad last fall and put passcodes on everything after I snooped and confronted her about something I found that sounded fishy. Nobody backs up to iCloud. I've thought through how to possibly get a hold of the ACTUAL text messages, although I'm sure it's nothing I really want to see.


Does she back up her phone to a local PC or Mac via iTunes? If so, you could get your hands on that and export at least SOME of her deleted texts.

Do you have the screen unlock code? If so, you could back it up yourself.

And why wouldn't you want to see the texts? Don't get me wrong, I get that you're apprehensive about discovering beyond a shadow of a doubt your wife is cheating on you, but you need to face facts...

Your wife is cheating on you.

Information is power. Get it and use it.



Troubled in Tennessee said:


> But, she could give me the "we're just friends" bullcrap.


Well, the fact that they seem to text ONLY when you're out of town -- in addition to the fact that she's deleting the texts -- would seem to be sufficient to call bullsh*t on that.

Dude, I'll just say it... 

You need to nut up.

Sorry if that's harsh, but I'm thinking that's what you came here to read.

Does adultery "matter" at all in terms of divorce in Tennessee?


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## southernsurf

Wow, sorry you are here, lots of red flags, cheaters follow a very predictable path, and they never ever change. You have a serial cheater on your hands. You had better brace because it’s going to get a whole lot worse. Good chance this is at least 1 PA, maybe more. Keep posting, people here can help. #1 she is in complete control, she does not respect you and she is (right now) not afraid of losing you. You MUST change that. you have to take a stand immediately! Start acting like you can move on without her, like you have had enough - look up the 180! If you confront the OM, she will likely just find someone else – she is the problem not the OM


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## BetrayedDad

Pluto2 said:


> Don't listen to this. Revenge affairs just wind up hurting more people.
> 
> I understand you don't want to divorce (at least not right now). So your goal is to stop the A, correct?


Right now he pretty much admits he's a cuckold.

My plan, at least she gets what's coming to her and some action to boot.

He already said he won't divorce her... He's known about this for FOUR months.


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## GusPolinski

Lloyd Dobler said:


> Really, what's the point of getting the actual text messages? I think you know everything you need to know about your wife already. At least enough to decide that the best option is divorce. Yeah, it's going to hurt, but you need to pull off that bandage and get it over with.





BetrayedDad said:


> Does it matter except him finding the "On" button so he can call a divorce lawyer?
> 
> I don't think anyone doubts this vile woman is getting plowed like a snow bank except maybe the OP.


Agreed.

That said, if he just needs to see undeniable proof staring him back in the face, there are ways to get to it.


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## southernsurf

BetrayedDad said:


> Right now he pretty much admits he's a cuckold.
> 
> My plan, at least she gets what's coming to her and some action to boot.
> 
> He already said he won't divorce her... He's known about this for FOUR months.


yup OP has dug a huge hole for himself, time to start diging out. no quick fix here


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## kristin2349

Lloyd Dobler said:


> Really, what's the point of getting the actual text messages? I think you know everything you need to know about your wife already. At least enough to decide that the best option is divorce. Yeah, it's going to hurt, but you need to pull off that bandage and get it over with.



It does matter to some. Sometimes you need to see just how bad it is and remember so you are making your decisions based on fact. You have the details of the betrayal based on facts they tried to keep from you, not the cheaters verson based on what they think you know.

If I had not uncovered all of my Ex's texts and other info. I might have been inclined to believe his "we are just friends" version of events. His cheating was less blatant than this, but the texts helped me get good and p!ssed and got me to the lawyer fast, I never looked back despite his efforts to reconcile.


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## italianjob

Troubled in Tennessee said:


> The VAST majority of friends and acquaintances that I have who are divorced are MISERABLE.


Maybe so, but do you think your life in the situation you just described is not MISERABLE?

One of the things that posters usually say to BSs on this Forum is that they don't deserve what is happening to them, that they deserve better.
After reading your OP, I actually think you might be an exception to that rule. 
You have no self respect, you value drinks on the patio with your cheating wife more than your integrity.
So maybe yes, you do deserve this.

You might not deserve it anymore only if you GROW A PAIR.


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## Marduk

Here's what you do.

You shut the hell up to your wife. Because she hasn't been YOUR wife for a very long time. She's been a bunch of other guys' plaything. And happily so.

She is not the person right now that you think you married. That person is gone. She may come back, but she likely won't.

So what you do instead of talking to the person that used to be the woman you love is you talk to a lawyer. Because even if you can stomach with your wife constantly getting something on the side, eventually she will like what she has on the side better and stop coming home.

Then you'll have to deal with some new guy getting access to half your stuff via your ex wife. On top of also getting full sexual access to your ex wife.

Go dark. Lawyer up. Don't say a word to your 'wife.' Be gone. A lot. Gather evidence, keep it in a safe place that isn't your house.

When you get straight legal-wise, you sit down with your wife and say something like:

"Wife, I know about all the muscleheads you've been running around with. I'm not here to tell you how I know or what I know, but to tell you that I know it all and have for some time. You don't have to sneak around anymore, because our marriage is done. You no longer deserve a faithful husband like me."

Drop papers in front of her, leave.

If you're lucky, you get to kick her out of your house. If you're not, you sell it.


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## jorgegene

I think deep down in your heart you know what's right to do.

I get the scared $hitless thing. I've been there. no good thing can come of ignoring it.

this will keep going on. You're going to get mad enough to do something about it. that's when you'll do it.


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## Forest

Hey man. Right now your really getting some gut punches, and not just from your wife.

I don't really know what the solution is, but ignoring it is surely NOT the solution. I sense that she's a blamer and you're a provider, and get-along type, right? Her instinct is going to be to continue to blame you. There is a lot of info buried in this site. Some will most likely spark a light bulb. Somewhere here there are lists of all types of helpful insights and tactics. I'll look for it, or maybe someone else will post it. I

Mostly, decide what you think you want, what is best, what will work. Counseling is always a given, a good start, but only when the parties are ready. Someone has to show her how badly she's behaving. Would she believe it if you told her? Not likely. Not unless you alter or reverse your typical delivery.

The whole coward thing is a waste of energy. Everyone has fear, and can be crippled in certain areas by fear. Doesn't matter if its snakes, needles, or women, everyone is fearful of something. Every fear can be overcome with the proper resolve. Its better to be stung by a wasp than be afraid of it. Less sure about snakes. Fear is overcome by knowledge.


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## SadSamIAm

If you want the affair to stop, you have to be willing to give up your marriage. It is that simple. 

Find out all you can about the OM and expose to anyone in his family that you can find. Don't tell your wife that you are doing this or she will tell him and he can warn everyone about the psycho man that is out to get you.

Then, you need to setup some boundaries and if she doesn't agree you need to file.

- no more locked devices
- no more deleting text messages
- no more going to bars without you
- no contact letter to her co-worker
- quit her job or get moved to another division, if she is in contact with him at work

If she balks at any of these, then you say you are done. AND MEAN IT


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## Ikaika

Troubled in Tennessee,

What are you going to do? What action do you want to take? Answer these two questions in your your head, then ask for advice on how to proceed with an action plan. And then implement it soon very soon. More time is not your friend.


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## southernsurf

starting moving some money out to a private acct - you'll need it. if she's been hanging in a bar alone for a while she's there only to get laid


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## Graywolf2

Troubled in Tennessee said:


> She says she loves me. We have fun together. We have a great sex life. We garden and play tennis and eat and drink wine on our patio. It's a nice life.


I imagine your wife feels the same as you and values your family life. But she gets to have all that and her boyfriends too. If you would never divorce her no matter what she does why would she ever give up her boyfriends?

The only leverage you have is to at least threaten to divorce her and take all the things you do for her away. You have to risk losing your marriage to save it. DO NOT threaten to divorce if you will never do it. You will just look weaker and more pathetic if you back down.

If you’re not prepared to lose your marriage you’re stuck with this:


Troubled in Tennessee said:


> Just try and ignore it. Quit looking at phone records or checking on her texts to see where she is (I have that capability on our texts; it locates her phone). Just accept that this is the price I have to pay for the life I've got.


If you will never divorce her I would recommend that you never confront her with what you know. The way things are now she at least has to be somewhat discrete. If it’s all out in the open she can just tell you that she’s going out on a date and that you shouldn’t wait up.


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## Ikaika

Btw, don't assume your sons are not aware of what's going on. So, at some point you have to stand up for them as well. Many moons back when my BILs wife was having her affair (had an affair child), his teenage children knew before he did. If not for you, do this for them. Look back at your options 2 & 3 again and figure out your game plan to implement them.


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## GusPolinski

@Troubled in Tennessee, please understand that we're not trying to run you off. _Piss you off_, maybe, but you shouldn't be upset w/ us.

We want to empower you. We want to embolden you. We want you to stop looking at your (I'll just go ahead and say it) wayward wife through the rose-colored lenses that have you seeing her as the young woman w/ whom you fell in love, married, and started a family... because she's not that woman any more.

We want you to stop doubting that what you've seen and are seeing is indicative of a concerted, ongoing, and pervasive betayal at the hands of your wife... because that's exactly what it is. Time and time again you've fallen for her faux feminist "Stop trying to control me!" bullsh*t. The good news is that she doesn't have you COMPLETELY snowed -- if she did, you wouldn't be questioning her words or actions at all.

We want you to stop standing aside and sheepishly accepting this sorry sham of a marriage that has become your reality over the course of the past several years. Hell, the option #3 that you quoted in your initial post SCREAMS of this. "Confront her and see what happens"...? No. F*ck that. You TELL her what will happen. Take charge of your life!

These are the cards that you've been dealt, _but you don't have to play the game anymore._ At least not by her rules.

Wake up, nut up, and get to work. Keep reading and we'll show you how.


----------



## arbitrator

*TroubledinTennessee:
Gus is correct! But it ain't exactly the end of the world for you either!

OK! On the coward part ~ I need you to procure and to read/study two important books:  No More Mr. Nice Guy  by Dr. Robert Glover and  The Married Man's Sex Life  by Athol Kay. These two reads will do more for your self confidence in standing up for who you are.

Regarding your W, I definitely feel that she is in the throes of an EA with "Muscle Boy," which quite possibly has gone PA. The reason I say that is she seems to be awfully interested in when you're going to be on your out-of-town trips to the point that she could well be planning rendezvous with "Muscle Boy" during your absences from home. I really feel that surveillance is in order by getting an inexpensive to midline VAR AND placing it under her car seat! That will reveal more about how much she converses with him as well as to the content of their dialogue!

Now, a few quick questions: Are you two still intimate or has your lovemaking and physical attraction for each other dwindled down to virtually nil? 

Have you been formally introduced to "Muscle Boy?" If so, when and where?

You have every right to confront your W over this but before you do, I'd have all of your ducks in a row and would procure additional evidence from a VAR. Continue to scan her phone/text records!

Once the evidence is in hand, then she needs to be confronted with the evidence as does "Muscle Boy's" W! Don't be shy ~ just pull a "Nike" on her and "Just do it!"

I wish you well, my friend!

P.S. Go see your MD and have him rule out any STD's!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BetrayedDad

Troubled in Tennessee said:


> Please handle with kid gloves.


Uhhhh... my bad I missed that part. 


OK, let's try another approach. Here are the FACTS:

1) She has slept with multiple guys.

2) She has no respect for you and thinks you're weak.

3) She threatens you with divorce to keep you at bay.

4) She has no intention of stopping her promiscuous behavior.

5) She has already thrown away her family to fed her selfish ego.


What ought you do? Here are the steps: 

1) Stop all contact with her and do the "180".

2) Call a divorce lawyer and have her served.

3) Do not move out of the house.

4) Concern yourself ONLY with the kids and yourself.

5) Get therapy for your lack of self esteem and codependency issues.

6) Expose to everyone, move expeditiously to divorce and rid yourself immediately of her. 


If you insist on saving this marriage then:

1) Stop all contact with her and do the "180".

2) Call a divorce lawyer and have her served.

3) Do not move out of the house.

4) Concern yourself ONLY with the kids and yourself.

5) Get therapy for your lack of self esteem and codependency issues.

6) Expose to everyone, pray she realizes she is going to lose it all, stops cheating on you and demonstrates some true remorse.


You have a 1% chance of that last one happening but hopefully you will wake up before you get to step 6 and realize you deserve better than to be married to a turd. 

If all else fails, petition for an open relationship. Whatever you do, just don't stay an emasculated cuckold. It will destroy your soul.


----------



## sixbravebulls

Yeah man, you are being too passive. In a way, that's why she's cheating. I remember in my early 20s I had a wayward girlfriend. One day I grabbed her ass by the collar and put her (gently) up against the wall and gave her a piece of my mind. She later told me that was the sexiest thing I had ever done.

I've been where you've been. You need to get rid of her. You're scared of her words, and words are nothing to be scared of from someone like her.


----------



## Troubled in Tennessee

Wow.
Fast and furious it comes. I don't think I was expecting this.
Gus, I appreciate your words. I don't read this as people trying to gut punch me or "run me off". I'm a big boy and expected to hear this, especially since I came to a site where the majority (if not all) of participants have walked some incarnation of my path at some point.
But, I will say this. It doesn't feel great. I would just ask that each of you remember that, at some point, you were in my shoes. You found out, stumbled upon, suspected, or otherwise learned of betrayal by your most precious ally and partner in the world. It sucks. I know that all of the advice here is solid. I really do. I will need to spend some time sorting through it all and figuring out the best plan of action for my situation in particular.
I just think it would be helpful to remember, though, that maybe I've just now come to the boiling point or my threshold where enough is enough. For that reason, I'm just reaching out to all of you. Remember that many of you are months, if not years, on the other side of this. Time has healed a lot for many of you. You are able to see that there is life after betrayal. Right now, I'm still teetering between utter passivity, denial, blaming myself, being pi$$ed beyond redemption at her. It's going to happen. I will confront. I know that. But, please forgive me that I don't possess all of the hindsight, "nut up", "be a man" qualities that serves all of you so well at this very moment. I'm still shocked and grieving. 
You're right, I've tried to just "lover her harder". I've tried to "do more" to "be a better husband" hoping that through all of that, she'll somehow snap out of it and cut it off and repent. That's a fool's errand, I now realize. 
But, when you've got two teenage boys, your 10 years into a 30 year mortgage, you've built careers together, you're close with her sister and your BIL (look, I used an acronym), her parents, etc., it's not always just as easy as "man up" "get a lawyer" kick her arse to the curb. Yes, that's probably the outcome. But, there's a lot of collateral damage along the way.
She'll get 60% of everything, I'll live in some crap hole apartment, hang out with other despondent divorcees. It doesn't look too rosy. So, with all due respect, I recognize I'm getting solid advice. I really do. But NONE of the options that lie in front of me look very appealing AT ALL right now. Does that make sense?


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## antechomai

I try to only post from experience and it wasn't a cliff and wreckage. It was a waterfall into a bit of a rapid, then a cool pool. Everything went right side up after my divorce. You get to rebuild who you need to be for your sons.


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## Iver

You're not a coward. You're someone who needs to go thru a root canal without anesthesia and isn't ready to bite the bullet quite yet. That doesn't make you a coward.

The problem is if something awful is occurring, hiding under the covers isn't the best way to deal with it. You know that which is why you are here.

Two main things you need to do. 

1. Get Information. The facts. What is actually going on. How does this impact me.

2. Then, What To Do About It.

The first involves seeing a good divorce attorney. You need to know exactly how you will fare in a divorce. The second is to find out exactly what is going on with your wife and the OM*. You must get the texts retrieved. They could be using an app which erases messages as well.

I would also recommend a P.I. while you are gone on business. Perhaps the P.I. if technical can find ways to capture the texts from your house? 

The second is what do you do with the information once you get it? If your wife is in a P.A. with the OM? or just an E.A.? What will you do? What will you accept moving forward? 

I'm not here to berate you but...mistakes were made. When you caught her latched onto some dude at a bar it should have been a "Come to Jesus" moment. No passwords on anything. Period. Double secret probation should have been laid down. 

Whatever you do don't accuse with out ironclad evidence. Doing so would just drive it underground. 

If you are not willing to live with this situation then you need to get ready for that root canal. Sorry to say what you already know, this probably is going to be ugly. Do discuss this with your counselor and get some advice on how to deal with what is coming.

*OM=other man; PA=physical affair; EA=emotional affair.


----------



## italianjob

Troubled in Tennessee said:


> Wow.
> Fast and furious it comes. I don't think I was expecting this.
> Gus, I appreciate your words. I don't read this as people trying to gut punch me or "run me off". I'm a big boy and expected to hear this, especially since I came to a site where the majority (if not all) of participants have walked some incarnation of my path at some point.
> But, I will say this. It doesn't feel great. I would just ask that each of you remember that, at some point, you were in my shoes. You found out, stumbled upon, suspected, or otherwise learned of betrayal by your most precious ally and partner in the world. It sucks. I know that all of the advice here is solid. I really do. I will need to spend some time sorting through it all and figuring out the best plan of action for my situation in particular.
> I just think it would be helpful to remember, though, that maybe I've just now come to the boiling point or my threshold where enough is enough. For that reason, I'm just reaching out to all of you. Remember that many of you are months, if not years, on the other side of this. Time has healed a lot for many of you. You are able to see that there is life after betrayal. Right now, I'm still teetering between utter passivity, denial, blaming myself, being pi$$ed beyond redemption at her. It's going to happen. I will confront. I know that. But, please forgive me that I don't possess all of the hindsight, "nut up", "be a man" qualities that serves all of you so well at this very moment. I'm still shocked and grieving.
> You're right, I've tried to just "lover her harder". I've tried to "do more" to "be a better husband" hoping that through all of that, she'll somehow snap out of it and cut it off and repent. That's a fool's errand, I now realize.
> But, when you've got two teenage boys, your 10 years into a 30 year mortgage, you've built careers together, you're close with her sister and your BIL (look, I used an acronym), her parents, etc., it's not always just as easy as "man up" "get a lawyer" kick her arse to the curb. Yes, that's probably the outcome. But, there's a lot of collateral damage along the way.
> She'll get 60% of everything, I'll live in some crap hole apartment, hang out with other despondent divorcees. It doesn't look too rosy. So, with all due respect, I recognize I'm getting solid advice. I really do. But NONE of the options that lie in front of me look very appealing AT ALL right now. Does that make sense?


The point is:
We're not talking about leaving Wonder Island here. We're talking about getting out of a situation where you are losing your self worth and your self respect, in other words, as somebody already said, your soul. In the end that will be harder to retrieve than anything else.

Besides, Your wife doesn't respect you at all. She's losing (or has already completely lost) her romantic interest in you. Now she's banging other men for sex, but what happens if she at last meets someone she's interested in besides sex (and is interested back)? That she still gets 60% of everything and you don't even get your self respect back...


----------



## BetrayedDad

@Troubled in Tennessee

No one here can give you courage.

I don't know what advice anyone can give you.

You're a smart guy, you know what you have to do.

You lack the WILL to act. 

This thread will go 50-100 pages and you will sit there.

Too scared to act, full of BS excuses.

Are you a man or a fvcking coward? That's your demon to face.

When you decide to dump this wh0re we will give you ALL the logistical advice we can.

Right now you're in self imposed limbo. 

We can't make you drink the water only lead you to it.


----------



## alte Dame

You are rightfully concerned and frightened of the end result here. Some people respond the way you do, with their fear outweighing their anger and resolve. So, take this one step at a time.

First is to decide what you think you want. You have no wonderful options because of what she has done. Which of the unpleasant options is the most comfortable for you? Do you want to try to work things out with her? Do you want to set yourself up as well as possible as a divorced dad? Do you want to learn to accept that you have a one-sided open marriage and just live with it?

If you want to try to work it out, then you have to break up the affair if you can. This means that you gather more info and then contact the BW of your wife's OM.

Since you have been sitting on this for months, you can take baby steps to deal with your fear. Define one affirmative thing this week that you will do to reach your goal of breaking up the affair. The people here will help with any step you take in this regard.

If you think you will eventually divorce, then define a small step in that direction.

If you want to just keep your head in the sand, I, for one, won't have much input that will be helpful. I'm a pro-active person who thinks that other people don't have a right to make decisions for me about my own life. If my H were acting like your W, my head would be somewhere other than in the sand. We are all different, though, so pick a tentative path to follow and then get started, one step at a time.


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## Ikaika

Troubled in Tennessee said:


> Wow.
> Fast and furious it comes. I don't think I was expecting this.
> Gus, I appreciate your words. I don't read this as people trying to gut punch me or "run me off". I'm a big boy and expected to hear this, especially since I came to a site where the majority (if not all) of participants have walked some incarnation of my path at some point.
> But, I will say this. It doesn't feel great. I would just ask that each of you remember that, at some point, you were in my shoes. You found out, stumbled upon, suspected, or otherwise learned of betrayal by your most precious ally and partner in the world. It sucks. I know that all of the advice here is solid. I really do. I will need to spend some time sorting through it all and figuring out the best plan of action for my situation in particular.
> I just think it would be helpful to remember, though, that maybe I've just now come to the boiling point or my threshold where enough is enough. For that reason, I'm just reaching out to all of you. Remember that many of you are months, if not years, on the other side of this. Time has healed a lot for many of you. You are able to see that there is life after betrayal. Right now, I'm still teetering between utter passivity, denial, blaming myself, being pi$$ed beyond redemption at her. It's going to happen. I will confront. I know that. But, please forgive me that I don't possess all of the hindsight, "nut up", "be a man" qualities that serves all of you so well at this very moment. I'm still shocked and grieving.
> You're right, I've tried to just "lover her harder". I've tried to "do more" to "be a better husband" hoping that through all of that, she'll somehow snap out of it and cut it off and repent. That's a fool's errand, I now realize.
> But, when you've got two teenage boys, your 10 years into a 30 year mortgage, you've built careers together, you're close with her sister and your BIL (look, I used an acronym), her parents, etc., it's not always just as easy as "man up" "get a lawyer" kick her arse to the curb. Yes, that's probably the outcome. But, there's a lot of collateral damage along the way.
> She'll get 60% of everything, I'll live in some crap hole apartment, hang out with other despondent divorcees. It doesn't look too rosy. *So, with all due respect, I recognize I'm getting solid advice. I really do. But NONE of the options that lie in front of me look very appealing AT ALL right now. Does that make sense?*


It does make sense, but when your mental and physical health begin to falter, all that nest egg stuff you both saved up, is meaningless. You say you haven't slept much lately. I bet generally you have let yourself slide. You have let your mental health go, I can hear it in your words. 

I do sympathize for your situation, but your health will decline and then all you have is a crappy life in a house you probably will no longer want to live in after awhile. Again don't assume your sons don't know what is going on. Is this what you want for them? 

Your health and well being are far more valuable than all your possessions. I have nothing further if you don't want to take action. But if you are looking for support to continue in this situation (as you describe), I believe you came to the wrong place.


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## SadSamIAm

Troubled in Tennessee said:


> Wow.
> Fast and furious it comes. I don't think I was expecting this.
> Gus, I appreciate your words. I don't read this as people trying to gut punch me or "run me off". I'm a big boy and expected to hear this, especially since I came to a site where the majority (if not all) of participants have walked some incarnation of my path at some point.
> But, I will say this. It doesn't feel great. I would just ask that each of you remember that, at some point, you were in my shoes. You found out, stumbled upon, suspected, or otherwise learned of betrayal by your most precious ally and partner in the world. It sucks. I know that all of the advice here is solid. I really do. I will need to spend some time sorting through it all and figuring out the best plan of action for my situation in particular.
> I just think it would be helpful to remember, though, that maybe I've just now come to the boiling point or my threshold where enough is enough. For that reason, I'm just reaching out to all of you. Remember that many of you are months, if not years, on the other side of this. Time has healed a lot for many of you. You are able to see that there is life after betrayal. Right now, I'm still teetering between utter passivity, denial, blaming myself, being pi$$ed beyond redemption at her. It's going to happen. I will confront. I know that. But, please forgive me that I don't possess all of the hindsight, "nut up", "be a man" qualities that serves all of you so well at this very moment. I'm still shocked and grieving.
> You're right, I've tried to just "lover her harder". I've tried to "do more" to "be a better husband" hoping that through all of that, she'll somehow snap out of it and cut it off and repent. That's a fool's errand, I now realize.
> But, when you've got two teenage boys, your 10 years into a 30 year mortgage, you've built careers together, you're close with her sister and your BIL (look, I used an acronym), her parents, etc., it's not always just as easy as "man up" "get a lawyer" kick her arse to the curb. Yes, that's probably the outcome. But, there's a lot of collateral damage along the way.
> She'll get 60% of everything, I'll live in some crap hole apartment, hang out with other despondent divorcees. It doesn't look too rosy. So, with all due respect, I recognize I'm getting solid advice. I really do. But NONE of the options that lie in front of me look very appealing AT ALL right now. Does that make sense?


People are giving you advice based on what they have lived through. Many have made the same mistakes you have. They are trying to make it easier for you.

Your best outcome will come from being strong. You are most attractive to your wife if you are strong. If you don't put up with her mistreating you and your marriage.

She might get mad at you for taking action. She may strike out at you. But it is only because she is losing. Not because she thinks you are wrong. She will be upset that she isn't able to control you like she always has in the past. She will know you are right and she will respect you more for it in the long run.


----------



## justastatistic

Yes, it does make sense. I am sorry you are here.

You really need to see what's in those text messages to at least know what you are dealing with, be it an emotional or physical affair. If you confront now, she will just deny deny deny and you will never know for sure. So figure out a way to do that, even if you have to steal her phone to get at the sim card. 

But either way, you know AT A MINIMUM your wife has boundary issues and a weakness for muscleheads, as well as a lack of respect for you probably because you are not a musclehead.

You are a decent and caring man who loves his wife. The problem is, while she knows you're a "good guy" and a good provider, the kind of guy women want to marry and have father their children, she is turned on by neanderthals. I'll bet if you got a hold of the OM's wife, you would find she's sick of his he-man ****, because she has to live with it. Your wife just has to flirt with it and enjoy the attention on the side.

Eventually, you will have to decide whether you can live with someone who keeps throwing herself at the muscleheads, because based on what you have written, it's unlikely she will stop.


----------



## Pluto2

Troubled, 

There are a few things that have tended to help a BS. First. is starting the 180. Here's a link to help you:

SurvivingInfidelity.com - Support for Those Affected by Infidelity and Cheating 
Its a list of behaviors that will help you become stronger and allow you to detach from the pain. Sometimes, but clearly not always, a WS will wake up and notice a change.

If the goal is to stop the A, exposure is the best tool you have. I'd probably wait until you have some evidence to use for confrontation. But you expose to your family, her family, the OM. You don't expose for revenge, you expose to that your army of family and friends can pressure the WS to return to the marriage and the put pressure on the WS and OM to actually end the affair.

I get that the thought of D make you want to puke. Maybe you don't have to. But no one here wants things to continue for you the way they have been. So, if your WS wants to stay married she must be willing to stop all contact with the OM, give you complete transparency in all her communications (passwords and accounts) and agree to counseling. You will both need counseling to learn how to forgive and rebuild trust, and communicate better. 
If she balks, pretty much everyone here will say you must be willing to walk away. You file for separation.

Up until now, she knows that she can do pretty much what she wants-with no consequences. You will draw a line in the sand. Your wife must change her behavior and recommit to the marriage-or the marriage will end. The thing is, you have to actually mean it. Which is why going to an attorney may be required. There are BSs who come to realize that life outside their familiar marriage might not be so nice, and then they will work on an effective R.

My ex remains an unremorseful serial cheater.


----------



## GusPolinski

Troubled in Tennessee said:


> Wow.
> Fast and furious it comes. I don't think I was expecting this.
> Gus, I appreciate your words. I don't read this as people trying to gut punch me or "run me off". I'm a big boy and expected to hear this, especially since I came to a site where the majority (if not all) of participants have walked some incarnation of my path at some point.
> But, I will say this. It doesn't feel great.  I would just ask that each of you remember that, at some point, you were in my shoes. You found out, stumbled upon, suspected, or otherwise learned of betrayal by your most precious ally and partner in the world. It sucks. I know that all of the advice here is solid. I really do. I will need to spend some time sorting through it all and figuring out the best plan of action for my situation in particular.
> I just think it would be helpful to remember, though, that maybe I've just now come to the boiling point or my threshold where enough is enough. For that reason, I'm just reaching out to all of you. Remember that many of you are months, if not years, on the other side of this. Time has healed a lot for many of you. You are able to see that there is life after betrayal. Right now, I'm still teetering between utter passivity, denial, blaming myself, being pi$$ed beyond redemption at her. It's going to happen. I will confront. I know that. But, please forgive me that I don't possess all of the hindsight, "nut up", "be a man" qualities that serves all of you so well at this very moment. I'm still shocked and grieving.
> You're right, I've tried to just "lover her harder". I've tried to "do more" to "be a better husband" hoping that through all of that, she'll somehow snap out of it and cut it off and repent. That's a fool's errand, I now realize.
> But, when you've got two teenage boys, your 10 years into a 30 year mortgage, you've built careers together, you're close with her sister and your BIL (look, I used an acronym), her parents, etc., it's not always just as easy as "man up" "get a lawyer" kick her arse to the curb. Yes, that's probably the outcome. But, there's a lot of collateral damage along the way.
> She'll get 60% of everything, I'll live in some crap hole apartment, hang out with other despondent divorcees. It doesn't look too rosy. So, with all due respect, I recognize I'm getting solid advice. I really do. But NONE of the options that lie in front of me look very appealing AT ALL right now. _Does that make sense?_


Well... it sort of makes sense that you'd see it like that. Either way, the bottom line is that you're making assumptions and letting the resultant fear drive your actions. Or, to be more accurate, your _*in*action_.

And yes, it's true that many of us do have to learn things the hard way where infidelity is concerned.

When I caught my wife in an online EA (actually it turned out to be a couple of them, though one of them had ended months earlier), there was no questioning it... I'd caught her. Hell, I wasn't even looking for anything. I just stumbled onto it. Still, there was no doubt, and I confronted her immediately. 

Now... if I had it to do over again, I'd probably change a couple of things w/ respect to the way that I handled the initial confront, but overall I'm pretty satisfied w/ it...



GusPolinski said:


> This is more or less the narrative that unfolded in the days following my discovery of my wife's EAs (paraphrasing)...
> 
> "You want time and space? (*** NOTE *** She never said this, BTW.) That's cool. I'll give you the 'space' between the front door and the end of the driveway, along w/ the 'time' that it takes you to walk it. And if you need more of either, you can GTFO. But know this -- leaving means that you _won't_ be coming back.
> 
> "I'm not perfect. I've never _been_ perfect. I can admit that. Hell, it's obvious to anyone that knows me, so all I'd be doing in denying it is lying to myself. I will listen to any legitimate grievances that you have, and I will work in earnest to address them. But know this... any 'blame' or responsibility for your behavior rests solely upon your shoulders. And, while I won't force you to do anything, if you want to stay in this marriage with me, this behavior HAS to be over. I won't tolerate it. You wouldn't tolerate it from me, and I wouldn't respect you if you did.
> 
> "We've spent a lot of years together and, in that time, we've been through a lot together, especially these past few months. I honestly -- and maybe naively -- thought that working through all of it side-by-side was bringing us closer together, but I can see how these types of things could cloud judgement and leave one particularly vulnerable to the advances of another. I'm not making excuses for you... I'm simply saying that I understand.
> 
> "At the same time, if you have so little respect for me that you could conceivably give yourself to another man, then you don't deserve to be stuck with me... and I don't deserve to be stuck with you.
> 
> "I love you. I want you. I want our marriage, and I want it to be better. But I won't tolerate this behavior. It ends NOW, or WE end now."
> 
> We didn't end.


Please know that I've not posted this in order to either ridicule you or to draw attention to myself, to "toot my own horn", "pat myself on the back", etc, but rather to show you what can result from taking decisive action and drawing your line in the sand.

Now... did it hurt? Yes. Did I agonize over my decisions? Yes. _But I made decisions and took action._

Do you feel that having some sort of _definitive_ evidence in your hands w/ respect to your WW's infidelities would better enable you in that regard? Either way, I'd advise you to assume the worst and then work from that...

Assume that your wife has been _physically_ cheating on you w/ multiple guys over the course of the past several years. Imagine that she's admitted to that, and then ask yourself...

"Can I live with this? Can I continue in marriage with her knowing this?"

Then go from there.

Oh, and you should also ask yourself if you can live w/ having to monitor or check up on her every time that you go out of town.

Stop thinking w/ your heart and start thinking w/ your head. Stone cold logic from here on out.


----------



## MattMatt

BetrayedDad said:


> That's usually my go to speech so since you've already decided that it's not for you I have an alternative.
> 
> If you can't beat them join them. Go have a revenge affair. Why should she have all the fun?
> 
> 
> 1) She openly emasculates you in front other men.
> 
> 2) She's clearly a serial cheat who has no respect for you.
> 
> 3) She's obviously fvcking this coworker, don't be an idiot to think otherwise.
> 
> 4) You're admittedly too cowardly to threaten divorce or leave her.
> 
> 
> So what's left?!? You're going to be resentful anyway at least you get some on the side. I wouldn't even bother hiding it frankly.
> 
> Your wife is a POS. So if you want to stay married to a POS because you're too chicken sh!t to do otherwise then treat her like the sh!t she is.
> 
> She already treats you like sh!t.....


Revenge Affair. Doesn't always have the desired result. They can make you feel even worse than your spouse's affair.

However, here's an option.

Prepare an extract from a faked PI report, detailing the text messages and the like.

Set up a new email account (from an Internet Cafe) using something like mail.com and email the PI report to yourself.

Then delete that mail.com email address.

Then use that report to confront your wife.

And also copy it to her lover's wife.


----------



## GusPolinski

Pluto2 said:


> Troubled,
> 
> I am so sorry you're here. Scared of actually taking action.
> 
> I was where you are now a few years ago with my ex-also a serial cheater. Few things feel more demoralizing than realizing that your spouse, the one who vowed to love you for ever, considers you a peace of inter-changeable meat. That feeling is not permanent.
> 
> Listen to Gus when he gives you advice about phones. He's fabulous.


----------



## the guy

I was pretty much the biggest coward here...but I took the chance and confronted...

After years of infidelity i finally gather the proof to have an effective confrontation.

What really such is if your old lady does come clean you will not like what you here. Like me I only though there was a few guys at the bar, a kind of LTA that I ignored,and then the guy I busted her with. Once she came clean, I only knew a 1/4 of the infidelity that was really going on.

My point is take the chance, have a effective confrontation and let the ball be in her court to do the heavy lifting. In my case it payed off and changes were made.

In my case I had the smoking gun were she had no choice but to face her new reality....I left no room for her to get angry as she looked at all the shameful evidence I had.

Make a plan and work the plan..even if it cost the money to get the evidence that will show your old lady how shameful she really has been behaving. Having a effective confrontation takes out the variable of her getting pissed.

Even if she does get pissed and you have to except her option to divorce, ask her to leave the home and ask her to take all her stuff with her.

If she sences any kind of fear about you not willing to divorce her she will continue to have the control she has over you...so call her bluff and agree with a divorce.

let me know when you are ready to confront!


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## the guy

Get a VAR once you hear for your self how little she respects you it might give you the strength to confront her.


For me it was the pictures that made me have the courage to confront her after 13 yrs of her bull shyt.

Ya..that's right just like you I was to much of a coward and let someone else take care of my wife....granted i still got laid but i let the other men deal with the emotional crap and all the complaining. Sure the cost to have her emotional need meet was phucking all these guys but in the end it was unhealth for both of us.

For what it's worth you might be doing your old lady a favor by confronting....one of these nights she is going to get into a car with some strange guy at the bar and never be seen again.

In the end you will both be doing each other a favor by confronting this with the painful evidence she needs to see.


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## manfromlamancha

OK TroubledInTennessee: sorry to have you here. You have been given good advice so far but I'll add my tuppence worth as well.


Firstly, you need to come to terms that she is a cheater and a liar. Maybe not as bad as some of the others on this board, but pretty bad and accomplished. She seems to have a thing for the jocks and muscle heads and whats worse, she knows (at this moment) that she is free to pursue her whims and tickle her fancies without any real consequences. That is something you need to put right straight away.


She has no respect for you. I don't know if she really loves you because you cannot really love someone you do not respect. You need to get this back real quick.


You say your options don't look good at the moment (she'll get 60% of everything and you will end up living in a hole etc etc). First, you don't know that without consulting a lawyer. Second, she may be worried about exposure (I am sure that the POSOM will be) and this may be a bargaining point. Finally, nothing compares to the peace of mind and the dignity you will regain by dumping her sorry a$$. That in itself should make your future look decidedly rosy!


I would gather all the evidence you have and secure it including what the bartender told you etc etc. I would plant VARs to snoop on her (car and house) and would monitor her communications and whereabouts - in short I would gather some really conclusive evidence. I would consult an attorney, secure the finances and custodial rights and file for divorce. I would have her served at work and then expose, expose, expose. Do not give either of them an inkling of what you are going to do.


You talk about her being the love of your life etc. - thats just the image of the woman that you thought you married - she has revealed herself to be something else now and make no mistake, she will get worse as this thing comes to light. Even if you want to reconcile, you have to be truly prepared to lose her to win her back on the right terms - that is her being truly open and remorseful in actions (unprompted by you). If this does not happen, then you really are not losing anything of value when you lose her.


Man up and reclaim your dignity and your life!


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## the guy

From my experience she was a good girl for maybe the 1st seven years, then shyt changed and she may have had her 1st affair, short lived maybe a few weeks but the guilt got to her and she went straight for maybe a few years but started up again.

Then I'm guessing she got tired of being used by all these ONS from drunks kids and after years of this abuse she is trying her hat at a coworker. Most likely this won't amount to anything and she will go back to being used by the guys at the varies bars.

In time she will feel degraded and then choice the option of going into the big city and finding guys with a bit more class and can front a hotel room instead of getting used in some drunk's pickup.

So 5 yrs from now your old lady could be so broken she is just waiting for you to confront her and force her into getting some help.

But who knows confront now and maybe you can change all of this and save your old lady.

Or 

She can tell you to phuck off and then ...my friend...she will be no longer your problem...it will be up to your boys to see if they can save her in the not so distant future.


Again I ask do want some help in having an effective confrontation?


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## Marduk

Troubled in Tennessee said:


> Wow.
> Fast and furious it comes. I don't think I was expecting this.
> Gus, I appreciate your words. I don't read this as people trying to gut punch me or "run me off". I'm a big boy and expected to hear this, especially since I came to a site where the majority (if not all) of participants have walked some incarnation of my path at some point.
> But, I will say this. It doesn't feel great. I would just ask that each of you remember that, at some point, you were in my shoes. You found out, stumbled upon, suspected, or otherwise learned of betrayal by your most precious ally and partner in the world. It sucks. I know that all of the advice here is solid. I really do. I will need to spend some time sorting through it all and figuring out the best plan of action for my situation in particular.
> I just think it would be helpful to remember, though, that maybe I've just now come to the boiling point or my threshold where enough is enough. For that reason, I'm just reaching out to all of you. Remember that many of you are months, if not years, on the other side of this. Time has healed a lot for many of you. You are able to see that there is life after betrayal. Right now, I'm still teetering between utter passivity, denial, blaming myself, being pi$$ed beyond redemption at her. It's going to happen. I will confront. I know that. But, please forgive me that I don't possess all of the hindsight, "nut up", "be a man" qualities that serves all of you so well at this very moment. I'm still shocked and grieving.
> You're right, I've tried to just "lover her harder". I've tried to "do more" to "be a better husband" hoping that through all of that, she'll somehow snap out of it and cut it off and repent. That's a fool's errand, I now realize.
> But, when you've got two teenage boys, your 10 years into a 30 year mortgage, you've built careers together, you're close with her sister and your BIL (look, I used an acronym), her parents, etc., it's not always just as easy as "man up" "get a lawyer" kick her arse to the curb. Yes, that's probably the outcome. But, there's a lot of collateral damage along the way.
> She'll get 60% of everything, I'll live in some crap hole apartment, hang out with other despondent divorcees. It doesn't look too rosy. So, with all due respect, I recognize I'm getting solid advice. I really do. But NONE of the options that lie in front of me look very appealing AT ALL right now. Does that make sense?


Here's the thing.

You are incapable of thinking rationally right now. You're simply swamped with emotion. I've been there. There's even a term for it... "flooding."

Emotionally, just let that be. Let yourself feel what you need to feel.

But don't let that stop you from acting. Just do one thing for us this week. Just one, ok?

Just go see a lawyer and learn what your options are? That's low risk, high reward, and low emotional trauma. She doesn't have to know.

Otherwise...

Emote here, buddy. All you want. Be the biggest wuss in the world here.

But not with her. Just please, not with her.

You will rise again. A year from now you will be a different man.

The depth of your pain shows the depth of your ability to feel. This is not weakness.

Weakness is what you do with that pain -- if you choose not to _act._

Pick up phone. Call lawyer and make appointment. First meeting will likely be free. She doesn't have to know.

Do it today.


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## southernsurf

You want to know the future just stay here and keep reading. What to fix the past just stay here and keep reading. The pattern never changes. 
One thing is certain 'being a nice guy' ''working harder to be the H she wants you to be' is a road to disaster. She needs shock and awe she needs to feel the consequences. At this lost stage the only chance to fix it is walk . Its counterintuitive


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## MattMatt

You are not a coward.

But you are afraid.

What are you afraid of, if you confront your wife?

That she might tell you she is not in love with you, anymore.


----------



## gouge_away

Is your wife on any barbiturates...? Ambient, 
Xanex?

How is her memory of this event...?
Dark,
Puzzled?


----------



## Road Scholar

Sorry TIT that you are here. If in your shoes, I would presume your wife is a cheater and an accomplished liar, repeat cheater and liar.

I don't understand what makes them do it any more than you, but it would seem the Betty's are stepping out on good men at a record pace these days. You seem to be a good guy in a marriage with normal issues. 

She seems to have the upper hand in the marriage and wield the power as my wife did. You tend to the kids and take care of most the other stuff without much acknowledgement. Bottom line is she's spoiled and has taken you for granted and she knows, as my wife did, that you would never, never leave her or file for divorce. You love her too much and she has a healthy ego and is pretty. My reaction was same as yours - salvage the marriage and the relationship, protect the kids at all costs. Love her more, be the better husband, nice her out of it. Trust me and others here that simply does not work.

She will need to be jolted out of it by YOU taking control of the situation. Her head is so in the clouds right now that the only thing that will bring her out of it is you taking a stand that she never felt you would. Either file for D or tell her you are going to see a lawyer to file. Then it gets real and she will realize what she will be losing. Trust me. My wife sent a text the night before to her guy "Grey Goose and soda wish you were here". One day after I told her I was filing for D, her tune changed completely and she begged for another chance which I gave her reluctantly. She has not waivered since that point, but I have and still do struggle with how poorly she was able to treat me. You will also.

Point is you need to be prepared for either outcome and a very long struggle. It may not end well. Just dealing with the feelings of resentment if you do reconcile are very difficult but every day that goes by without you blowing the affair out of the water is another day she falls deeper "into fantasyland" with him. While you did nothing. That's a tough pill down the line.

You need to have confidence in who you are stop acting out of fear of what she might do. F*ck her is the attitude you need. Do not chase her anymore. Act courageously to save your marriage. You have the right to you know. You have the right to look at her phone any f*cking time you want. If she has something to hide, that is a REAL problem.

Hard to say what I would do differently because in the end my wife and I are still together so my misteps somehow worked out but are a bigger burden on me during the R.

For sure, I would nuke him to his wife right now. No doubt. Possibly his boss. Get him to fear for his job and marriage. Give him a reason to be scared. I gave my wife's AP a warning and the affair continued for another 5 months. Don't allow that to happen.

Figure out a way to get to her phone and install a spy app. Do the VAR thing. Put a GPS on her car. 

Buck up TIT, you're in for a rough ride cowboy.

RS


----------



## farsidejunky

Road Scholar said:


> Sorry TIT that you are here. If in your shoes, I would presume your wife is a cheater and an accomplished liar, repeat cheater and liar.
> 
> I don't understand what makes them do it any more than you, but it would seem the Betty's are stepping out on good men at a record pace these days. You seem to be a good guy in a marriage with normal issues.
> 
> She seems to have the upper hand in the marriage and wield the power as my wife did. You tend to the kids and take care of most the other stuff without much acknowledgement. Bottom line is she's spoiled and has taken you for granted and she knows, as my wife did, that you would never, never leave her or file for divorce. You love her too much and she has a healthy ego and is pretty. My reaction was same as yours - salvage the marriage and the relationship, protect the kids at all costs. Love her more, be the better husband, nice her out of it. Trust me and others here that simply does not work.
> 
> She will need to be jolted out of it by YOU taking control of the situation. Her head is so in the clouds right now that the only thing that will bring her out of it is you taking a stand that she never felt you would. Either file for D or tell her you are going to see a lawyer to file. Then it gets real and she will realize what she will be losing. Trust me. My wife sent a text the night before to her guy "Grey Goose and soda wish you were here". One day after I told her I was filing for D, her tune changed completely and she begged for another chance which I gave her reluctantly. She has not waivered since that point, but I have and still do struggle with how poorly she was able to treat me. You will also.
> 
> Point is you need to be prepared for either outcome and a very long struggle. It may not end well. Just dealing with the feelings of resentment if you do reconcile are very difficult but every day that goes by without you blowing the affair out of the water is another day she falls deeper "into fantasyland" with him. While you did nothing. That's a tough pill down the line.
> 
> You need to have confidence in who you are stop acting out of fear of what she might do. F*ck her is the attitude you need. Do not chase her anymore. Act courageously to save your marriage. You have the right to you know. You have the right to look at her phone any f*cking time you want. If she has something to hide, that is a REAL problem.
> 
> Hard to say what I would do differently because in the end my wife and I are still together so my misteps somehow worked out but are a bigger burden on me during the R.
> 
> For sure, I would nuke him to his wife right now. No doubt. Possibly his boss. Get him to fear for his job and marriage. Give him a reason to be scared. I gave my wife's AP a warning and the affair continued for another 5 months. Don't allow that to happen.
> 
> Figure out a way to get to her phone and install a spy app. Do the VAR thing. Put a GPS on her car.
> 
> Buck up TIT, you're in for a rough ride cowboy.
> 
> RS


Good to see you again, RS.

/end TJ

OP, fellow Tennessean here for what it's worth.

If your wife knows there are never any consequences, why should she stop?

RS went through this with his wife...through two confrontations and a false reconciliation. I would listen carefully to his advice.


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## CTPlay

I'm sorry you are here. Really.

But you would rather live as her secondary man for what... 1 or 2 years before she really tears you apart and leaves you for another man permanently?

And that scenario to you is more palatable then divorcing and moving on your own accord? 

Tell me more about this cliff. As a man who was cheated on and left with 2 young boys in a similar age to yourself, I'd like to know why you think your life ends when this woman is gone.


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## GusPolinski

CTPlay said:


> I'm sorry you are here. Really.
> 
> 
> 
> But you would rather live as her secondary man for what... 1 or 2 years before she really tears you apart and leaves you for another man permanently?
> 
> 
> 
> And that scenario to you is more palatable then divorcing and moving on your own accord?
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me more about this cliff. As a man who was cheated on and left with 2 young boys in a similar age to yourself, I'd like to know why you think your life ends when this woman is gone.



Well said.


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## eastsouth2000

I'm sorry your in this situation
glad you found this site

you are not alone, many men have walked this path. unfortunately tomorrow there will be more men like you and the next day more will come.
if her "lifestyle" is affecting your happiness. then you have to cut her out.
what she is doing to you, will affect you being a good father to your children.

you are not a Coward, you just have some irrational fears. out of lack-of-knowledge.

you have some irrational fears about divorce;
1.)fear of her will get everything, no she wont. check with local laws see where you stand financially and custody wise. *-go see a lawyer*
2.)fear of children's well being, no children wont suffer. studies have shown children to be more resilient in divorce. and all so studies have shown divorce has little to no effect in there development and future success. -*we have divorce/co-parenting counseling*
3.)fear of being alone, if you haven't been looking around the web lately even people of our age group still dating, still marrying & still having children.
there are tons of women out there who would date you. *-go get some individual counseling*
4.)fear of in-laws, no they wont hate. if any they may convince you wife or more likely support you. *-go talk to the in-laws*

if you do plan for divorce keep it in the raps.
while she was drunk she showed you who she really was.
if you start looking to other women for affection. if WW finds out she will divorce.
with out a shadow of doubt this isn't her first rodeo.

i believe this is her true self, she enjoys the company of other people/other men.
she is polygamous/poly-amorous and might not share the same belief as you on monogamy.

children are young and she is already doing this. wait till she gets "empty nester syndrome"


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## CTPlay

GusPolinski said:


> Well said.


Your first post to me in my situation was essentially the same advice.

Just passing it along. :grin2:


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## eastsouth2000

wait i thought the kids were young.

one kid is 18! good lord!

look out brotha! *EMPTY NESTER SYNDROME* headed your way!

stop with tennis golf and other sports! just stop. use that time to spend with your wife.


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## farsidejunky

CTPlay said:


> I'm sorry you are here. Really.
> 
> But you would rather live as her secondary man for what... 1 or 2 years before she really tears you apart and leaves you for another man permanently?
> 
> And that scenario to you is more palatable then divorcing and moving on your own accord?
> 
> Tell me more about this cliff. As a man who was cheated on and left with 2 young boys in a similar age to yourself, I'd like to know why you think your life ends when this woman is gone.


You need to stick around, CT.


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## Road Scholar

TIT,
One other thing, do not assume that because she gets sad or weepy that it's because she is sad or weepy over you or losing you or losing her marriage. It simply could be that she is sad she got busted and sad the affair may come to an end. The ability for the aliens to compartmentalize is like nothing I have seen or could imagine. Your wife is currently an alien. She is not your wife.

My blowup night, before I found out about the affair, much like yours, I thought we were working toward resolving our marital issues. My wife sent me a note to the effect that she was fighting back tears all morning and looking for a counselor for us/her to meet with. I believed her and was even consoled by it. I found out months later and after DDay2 that she left for work that very morning and met him to have sex in a hotel. Then a little while later when back at work, sent me that note.

Trust nothing she says or does at this point. NOTHING. 

RS


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## NoChoice

OP,
You must do something that defies your rational thought. If you desire any chance at saving your marriage, however slim that chance may be, then you must let go of your logic. Your mind says "if I have not been the man she needs me to be then by becoming a better man she will naturally come back to me". Your mind says "if I show her unwavering dedication and prove to her that I will be there no matter what, she will see my steadfast faithfulness and want me again". Your mind says "I know she loves me and our boys more than she loves herself and her own pleasure". These are all logical thoughts to have but they are all wrong.

Your wife's intellect is not capable of these thoughts, they simply do not apply to her. If this were not so you would not be here posting for advice. Her intellect is not developed to that level of thoughtful understanding. You must deal with her in a manner that she can understand, personal loss. Expose the A, threaten D, confront with mountains of irrefutable evidence. These tactics allow her to feel the pain of her behavior and may indeed "shock" her into some form of pseudo reality but it will not be permanent.

In order to have any permanent change in her behavior she must come to understand but before she can understand she must comprehend. Without comprehension there can be no change. I am truly regretful to have to inform you of this but it is true. She will require a fundamental shift in her personality, away from herself and towards you and the boys. This is very difficult to do and will require substantial inner strength, determination and intellect which, sadly, I do not believe she posses.

Sometimes severe loss and hardship can evoke this change but it is rare, extremely rare and usually only occurs when the individual hits rock bottom and has nowhere left to go. Sometimes even then the understanding eludes them.

Is sitting at a bar talking and interacting with strange men the actions of a married woman and mother or an attention starved adolescent female? Why then would you treat her as a wife/mother and expect to get positive results? You can text her and you are smothering her yet her OM can text her exponentially more and it is met with pleasure, why? Because in her adolescent mind you are now equated more to the role of pseudo-parent than to mate/lover/husband and just as any parent of a teenage daughter knows, you are now considered to be controlling her, stifling her, smothering her. You keep trying to shut down her fun and she does not like it. Think on this and see if you find truth in it. If you do, then you will have to alter your approach in dealing with her.

Another option is to cut her loose and allow her to "have her fun" and after a time, if she matures, she may decide to "come home" and be ready for a real relationship. However, in all probability, by then you will have likely found a mature woman who appreciates a faithful, devoted man and you will want nothing to do with her, as she wants nothing to do with you now. I wish you strength and good fortune.


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## Nucking Futs

You're getting a lot of good advice here, most of which you're not quite strong enough yet to take. You've been advised to at least do one thing this week, go see a lawyer and find out the truth about your post-marriage financial future, and that's good advice. But I have another task for you to do ASAP: get an STD test. You don't know how many muscle heads she's banged, or how many slores _they've_ banged. I would like you to do both ASAP, the STD test and the lawyer consult.


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## arbitrator

*The more that I read of this, the more I think that you should just go ahead and file for D. I really think that she has been playing you like a harp for quite a while now!

Please file and get yourself medically checked out! You do not deserve this!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 6301

The longer this goes on, the harder it's going to get. Right now you know full well that she's a liar, a cheat, and has no respect for you.

Not to mention that if you may as well accept the fact that she's going to blame you for all of it. So far from your posts, you would rather look the other way rather then confront. Because of that, your in this situation.

My advice to you is this. You need a lawyer and a good one. You need to sit down with him/her and give them the details of whats going on, file the paperwork for the divorce and listen to what your lawyer says.

Yes when she's served, she's going to be flaming pissed. She'll scream, holler, call you all kind of names and go on her rant. So what? She's been doing it now for how long so what's one more time. 

You remain calm. Nothing worse when a pissed off person can't get a rise out of whoever their pissed off at. Keep a VAR on you at all times. She's nasty enough to make a call to the cops and say you hit her so protect yourself. I would also set up another checking and savings account when she's served because with her mindset, what's hers is hers and whats yours is hers too. Protect yourself. 

Now if your afraid of her then my advice is to start growing up and start acting like a man. Show your kids that they have a father rather than their mothers whipping boy.

You better do something real quick because if you don't pull the trigger on her, bet the house she'll do it to you. Stop worrying about what her family thinks. Your the one with the problem. You don't have to start anything. Just have her served and tell her that your done with her lies, cheating and bad ass behavior and leave it at that. Sooner or later she's has to stop her screaming but beware of her trying to charm her way back in your life. Honestly your life sucks big time and if you want to know why, look in the mirror and you'll see whose at blame. Better get yourself squared away real soon or it will get much worse and you'll have nothing. Right now a lawyer is your best friend. let him or her do your talking. That's what they get the big bucks for. Wise up.


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## just got it 55

OP I am pretty certain this will end in D

So why not do this now and on your terms

or at least the best terms you can get

Your not in limbo

You are in hell

Get out and save what's left of you life and dignity.

55

ETA: Just for sh!ts and giggles let me add (and you will read this all the time on TAM)

You have to be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it.


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## turnera

Troubled in Tennessee said:


> She'll get 60% of everything, I'll live in some crap hole apartment, hang out with other despondent divorcees. It doesn't look too rosy. So, with all due respect, I recognize I'm getting solid advice. I really do. But NONE of the options that lie in front of me look very appealing AT ALL right now. Does that make sense?


That's why you do the ONE EASY THING to do first: go see a lawyer and learn your rights and your odds. Until you do that, you're spinning your wheels and wasting valuable time. Your kids are old enough to decide to live with you, anyway. Since you both work, SHE may end up owing YOU child support.


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## CTPlay

farsidejunky said:


> You need to stick around, CT.


Just paying it forward. Thanks guys.


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## where_are_we

I don't always understand the point of needing hard evidence. If you know what you know, even feel it...why do you need a smoking gun.

You could wave that smoking gun in their face and they may still deny it. Save your energy and move on. 

Sorry you are here.


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## Thound

Well since you're not ready to plunge into the deep end, try this. Read up on the 180 and apply it. Work on emotionally detaching. Keep telling your self I AM A MAN. I CAN LIVE WITHOUT HER. Keep reinforcing those thought every day. That's about all I have. You will only get what you put up with. I truly wish you all the best my friend.


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## tom67

Nucking Futs said:


> You're getting a lot of good advice here, most of which you're not quite strong enough yet to take. You've been advised to at least do one thing this week, go see a lawyer and find out the truth about your post-marriage financial future, and that's good advice. But I have another task for you to do ASAP: get an STD test. You don't know how many muscle heads she's banged, or how many slores _they've_ banged. I would like you to do both ASAP, the STD test and the lawyer consult.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## lifeistooshort

You know, it seems to me that you've basically decided that staying married to her is worth dealing with her screwing around on you. If you're willing to live with it that's up to you but own it, just accept that you have an open marriage and go get yours.

But maybe this is a process for you and you still need to wrap yourself around the idea of being without her. True you could lose a lot in a divorce but you can rebuild your life.....what are the years of your life worth to you?


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## aine

Troubled, really sorry you find yourself in this place. You have got great advice here. i do not want to be mean so take this as from someone who does not know you at all but is looking from the outside in.
Remember, you will lose this marriage because you are rug sweeping all the incidents, you are scared of your wife, you have no back bone to stand up for what is right and tbh weak men are totally unattractive to strong females (which she appears to be).
Now as a peri-menopausal woman i know that when a woman hits her mid 40s she begins to think very differently about her life, her history in the marriage etc. I suspect this is what is happening to your wife. I myself have thought about how miserable I have been and what would it be like to dip the toe in so to speak, but my faith, my moral convictions, the potential damage and the knowledge that my husband (who has a backbone) would go ballistic made me realize it was stupid to think this way in the first place.

Something happens in the chemical make up of the woman's brain to make her see everything that is wrong with her marriage, current living arrangements etc. (You heard her innermost feelings when she was drunk). I know some people will scoff at this idea but it is a very trying time for women and I have personally experienced the wild thoughts. Unfortunately some women act them out because they do not have boundaries or a good bond to a strong husband. (the Female Brain by Louann Brezadine). That is partly why divorces requested by women at this stage of life are very common. You left her with a strange man in a bar and went and sat in the car, to a perimenopausal woman that just smacks of you don't give a s*** about her! Instead a strong man would have went up to the guy and said, take your f****** hands of my wife, grabbed her and stormed out of there. She might say it is too controlling but she needs boundaries and would have probably appreciated it. You are not showing her this!

In your case you have acted very cowardly and basically let her away with everything, it is a matter of time before her dalliances go beyond the flirting and groping to full blow sex and/or A's.
You have to now take action which shows her that you are prepared to lose this marriage. Is is very counter intuitive but if you continue this way you will be miserable, have no sleep and may end up losing the marriage anyhow. She will not respond to a weak man, period. 

1. Tell her that there must be full disclosure of all (she will trickle truth, call her out every lie she makes as you have more information than she thinks). You must also have full access, to her mobile phone, emails, FB etc. If she refuses, screams and shouts, then say you have no problems, if that is how it is going to be you know what to do. Don't tell her but go see a good lawyer and start the divorce process (you may never get to an actual divorce)
2. She must send a no contact mail to this OM (he is so much younger than her! she is in fantasy land and he probably likes the fun with a cougar)
3. Expose him to his wife immediately so he is busy on that end.
4. Expose your WW to your family, her family and friends, (I know this will be tough for you, but she has to be held accountable to see how ridiculous she is acting, she will scream and shout and hate on you, let her. This is where you need fortitude and back bone, be a man and follow through!)
5. You tell her you love her but you will not let her behave this way, as you have pride and you expect to be respected in your own home by your own wife. if she wants to act like a horny teenager then she can go right ahead but it will not be in your home, when she is mother of kids and a wife. She can leave and do it on her own time. AND it will be followed by divorce papers submitted by you.
6. Ask her to go for MC, is she refuses also follow with divorce papers, no dilly dallying. Action must be precise, full of conviction and follow through. 
7. Join a church group, support group, IC or whatever suits you as you will need the support.
8. I cannot remember the age of your kids, if they are old enough they have to be told too. Do not tell her that you are exposing her, just let her find out. If she goes ballistic, you tell her that if she thought there were no consequences for her actions, then she has another think coming. You are not prepared to destroy the family because of her and will do whatever it takes to keep yourself sane and the kids in a stable environment, she can leave and screw up her life is she wants to, but she is not taking you all down with her. Sometimes cheaters need to realize what they are about to lose, what you are doing now is not letting her see that. She is eating cake big time!

Above all, do NOT make threats unless you know you will follow through. You are now engaged in war fare, do not give up or give in. Do not listen to her screaming, shouting, name calling, bad behaviour, threats,. Do the 180 on her, act calmly (this will be tough) and detached, do not feed into her drama and anger. Walk away when you need to. Tell her you will only speak with her when she is calm and willing to be open and honest. Otherwise you are not wasting your time.


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## Vulcan2013

Think of the responses as a marine corps DI hardening you up for a battle you WILL be in, one way or another. If you keep hiding, she will have less and less respect, and you'll lose all your self-respect. 

You need to make a plan and gather information. How scary is that? A little, but you can do it. 

Don't take action prematurely and halfway. Work toward a nuclear exposure. Gather rock solid evidence and hit her with D papers even if you'd prefer a D. 

Start taking care of yourself. Hit the gym. Not for her, for you. Take up a hobby, make new friends. Work the 180, and detach. 

I know you want to do something. You can't call yourself a coward and expect us not to challenge you to man up. You can do it!


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## Sports Fan

You need to man up my friend. As someone who has gone through his own week of hell i tell you this with the upmost sympathy.


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## Dyokemm

Troubled,

You listed out your circumstances...kids, mortgage,etc....like they supposedly make your situation so very different and much more difficult that the other posters on here.

You don't think that the vast majority of these people faced similar or even tougher situations with their WS's?

Stop thinking your situation is unique and start paying attention to what the other posters are telling you.

And get out of denial of what has been going on in your M for a long time now.

You are lying to yourself if you think she did not have sex with at least the one POS she left the bar with...and given that the bartender looked on you with such pity along with the fact you found out about other 'make-out' sessions (at least), I would bet he was only one of many she was screwing around with.

And she is sleeping with this POS co-worker...stop telling yourself any different.

But give up on any idea of trying to contact POSOM with empty threats.

Want to send a clear message to your WW that her bullsh*t is over and you are not tolerating it anymore?

Expose the A to POSOM's BW and to both of your families and all friends.

Then put her on notice that she will give a full accounting to you of the extent of her betrayals, end all contact with POS, give transparency on all her communications, quit her job, and enter counseling to figure out how she could betray you and her family like this....or you WILL file for D and go find a far better woman to share your life with. 

No one here can give you the courage to fight....they cannot save you from yourself if you insist on being weak and afraid.

Start fighting if you truly want to save your M.....only strength and consequences for your WW can save it now.

Stop dawdling and act!


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## gouge_away

Consequences, if your going to stay, at least make it a living hell for her.

Separate finances. Live your life apart from her, when the kids are grown hit her with the D and liberate yourself.


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## Bad Medicine

TN,

I feel for you. I don't belong to this site, a search engine randomly brought me here and I just happened to read your post, it's heart felt and I'm sorry some people are being a little harsh on you. I agree with some of what they said, but some people get off on being a-holes, just ignore it.

As for advice, like someone else said, as an outsider looking in, I think you might be getting drawn too far into her world, into her mind and head. Might be good to step back away from that and get some space, stop trying to figure out what she's doing, start trying to figure out what you want to do.

Is there anybody in the family you can leave the kids with ?

Might be time for a trip to the beach or something for a few days, to sit and figure out what's good for you, try to figure out what you want and need.

That said, there's a reason I've been single my entire life, and it's exactly that attitude that has kept me single, I was never willing to work it out with a woman, I was never ready for the give and take that is involved in a marriage, so there's that.

Hope it works out for you whatever you choose, and hopefully it'll be your choice and not just reacting to whatever your wife decides to do. She's her own person, she makes her own choices, and she has to live with them, but that doesn't reflect on you as a person, she might just be a POS cheater. Figure out what you want and go with that. Be careful though, if you leave and start trying to figure out what you want to do, don't be surprised if she suddenly starts wanting to work it all out for fear of losing you for practical reasons. Someone that cold hearted probably wouldn't have any problems taking advantage of you more than she already has.

Good luck.


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## Bad Medicine

aine said:


> Now as a peri-menopausal woman i know that when a woman hits her mid 40s she begins to think very differently about her life, her history in the marriage etc. I suspect this is what is happening to your wife. I myself have thought about how miserable I have been and what would it be like to dip the toe in so to speak, but my faith, my moral convictions, the potential damage and the knowledge that my husband (who has a backbone) would go ballistic made me realize it was stupid to think this way in the first place.
> 
> Something happens in the chemical make up of the woman's brain to make her see everything that is wrong with her marriage, current living arrangements etc. (You heard her innermost feelings when she was drunk). I know some people will scoff at this idea but it is a very trying time for women and I have personally experienced the wild thoughts. Unfortunately some women act them out because they do not have boundaries or a good bond to a strong husband. (the Female Brain by Louann Brezadine). That is partly why divorces requested by women at this stage of life are very common. You left her with a strange man in a bar and went and sat in the car, to a perimenopausal woman that just smacks of you don't give a s*** about her! Instead a strong man would have went up to the guy and said, take your f****** hands of my wife, grabbed her and stormed out of there. She might say it is too controlling but she needs boundaries and would have probably appreciated it. You are not showing her this!


I don't agree with this at all.

The woman is her own person, she makes her own choices, does whatever she does, you can't blame this guy for that, he's her husband not her damn father.

I've never been married, so feel free to throw that back as a reply and I'll just say you're absolutely freaking right because I don't know the first thing about it ... but it seems to me, again as an outsider, that two people have their own minds and they both have to choose to be married for it to work. When one of them decides they don't care what happens anymore, there's not jack the other one can ultimately do to change that, because he is not in control of her, she's in control of herself. If she's such a low life that she'd treat a man she's been with for 20 years like crap, then that's her problem, not his, that shows a serious lack of character on her part.

I think it's really unfair to tell this guy that he should take control of his woman if he wants to save his marriage, if it doesn't mean anything to her, why should he bother ? I agree he should man up, but only in-so-far as he needs to do that to look out for himself and his kids and figure out what he wants to do, not because he's under any kind of responsibility to affect her behavior in any way. She's made her choice, that's not his fault, she does whatever she does, and whatever "I'm 40 and it's brain chemistry" B.S. doesn't change that, she's still just a POS cheater whether it's brain chemistry or any other reason.

This b*tch wants to cheat ? To hell with her, that's her choice, that doesn't have anything to do with him, because there's never a good reason for a spouse to cheat. From what little he wrote he sounds pretty cool to me. Who cares why she did it, whether it's brain chemistry, peri-menopausal[sic], the price of tea in China is too high, or she's just a vacant soulless b*tch, it's not this guy's responsibility to fix it, and unless he abused her or something it's not his fault she's lost it.


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## Be smart

Your wife is serial cheater and she ahs ZERO respect for you.
Next time she would *** another guy in front of you because you are doing nothing to earn your respect back,your balls back.

PLEASE Divorce her,you are only 42-43,life is to short to be vasted on your wife.

Imagine what will your sons tell you and think of you when they found out that you are OK with their mom sleeping with another man.

Grow some balls my frined and file for Divorce ASAP.


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## Pluto2

Did we chance the OP away?


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## ThePheonix

Our man TT may have flown the coop since he didn't get a quick and easy method to make his old lady stop her shenanigans and once again cleave to only him. The fact that she treats him like her man servant and he goes along with it speaks volumes about the dynamics of their relationship. She runs the show, publicly treats him like a worm, and apparently drives under the influence, picks up other guys right under his nose while he sanctions her actions just so she'll keep him around pretty well tells the story. From what I'm reading, I've surmised he pretty much like having his hand wrapped around a drink himself. Ain't a lot more to see here guys.
Moreover, in my experience, married women who frequent bars, with or without their husbands, are often easier lays than women who don't; when you can catch them without their old man in tow.


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## intuitionoramiwrong

I get cowardly...unfortunately. 

How about sending an anonymous letter to his wife that simply says "check his phone bill..."

Maybe his wife has the balls to confront.


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## drifting on

Step one-see an attorney
Step two- separate finances
Step three- coward no more
Step four- printout phone records
Step five- make five copies
Step six- meet OMW for breakfast
Step seven- same day you meet OMW surprise your wife at lunch.
Step eight- give her phone records, then say lets go meet the guy you only talk to when I'm out of town. 
Step nine- meet other guy and tell him you and his wife had a lovely breakfast a few hours ago. 
Step ten- give him the phone printouts. Tell him his wife has them also. Then walk out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## weightlifter

Tennessee, read the entire threads by whyeme and bff. Whyeme was lower than you. 2 years ago, almost to the day, his daughter was what was keeping him from SUICIDE. He just got back from his honeymoon with wife 2.0. BFF has a similar story except he recovered faster and didnt get suicidal. HORRIFIC beginnings, epic endings. This is not to say you have to divorce but...
Dude. Cmon. Your doormat syndrome is triggering many here hardcore.

Sometimes I wish I was a ghost who could possess people and do a crushing confrontation. Too needy? NOOOOO problem. Be careful what you wish for...

BTW backup everything NOW in two places, one USB stick in care of trusted friend or family and cloud she does not know about.

Top link in my sig contains useful info.


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## southernsurf

Maybe he already moved over to the divorce and separation section everyone knows its inevitable. Game set match she won


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## drifting on

Troubled in Tennessee

My wife had a workplace affair, they are next to impossible to prove and much communication in person. If I could go back in time I could have done what I suggested and blown it up. It most likely wouldn't have been a physical affair. But hindsight is twenty twenty. Your wife's reaction to the above post I posted will tell you to divorce or reconcile. Any anger she displays divorce, if she chases you out saying she's sorry then you can decide. 

I've been in your shoes, and it sucks, and that's a great day. I tried for two and a half years to find the smoking gun. Never did. I became suicidal, never was before. I tried to kill myself, didn't work. You can't ignore this, you know too much, it will eat you alive. Your wife is remorseless, so stand up and fight, before it's too late. And I'm not talking about your marriage or divorce, I'm talking about saving yourself. 

Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acoa

I've been there, and you need to make a choice. Confront, dig for more evidence then confront or ignore it and live the cukold lifestyle. 

I suggest digging up more evidence then confront. Watch her when she unlocks, figure out her pass code. Back up her phone to your computer then use one of the recovery programs to see some of her deleted texts. 

Use her patterns of texts to make some assumptions about when they are meeting. Have a trusted friend or hire a PI to follow her and get some photos. 

What are the rules where she works on sex with co-workers? If you have solid evidence you could use that to expose the affair at her work and to OMW. 

If you confront with what you have now, she'll yell about privacy and how it's all circumstantial and how it's much more innocent than you think. That's bull crap. But that's what you'll have to deal with. 

Sorry that you are going through this. It sucks, and there is no easy direction. Every path has its trials, try to pick the one with the best long term outlook.


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## ThePheonix

That yelling about privacy, controlling, and other horse sh-t like that wouldn't work with me. For one I am controlling to an extent, two, her, or my, rights to privacy from each other are pretty much limited to the bathroom, (maybe setting up a surprise party for me) and three, I don't want a spouse who believes otherwise. 
Of course I ain't never been one to hang around and get the sh-t kick out of um because I like the other part of lifestyle I have. Like Solomon said, "It's better to live alone in the corner of an attic than in a beautiful home with a contentious wife."


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## bigfoot

You have labeled yourself a coward. I think that a bit unfair. I also think it unfair to expect you to go full frontal confrontation. In the end, you have to decide where you want to be and then take the path that gets you there. 

Draft an uncontested divorce petition and give it to her and ask her to sign it. Just tell you that you know, you don't understand why, but there is no real reason to continue living like this. You are miserable.

The thing you need to remember is this, just because she has signed it does not mean that you have to file it. If you are to "cowardly" as you say, to leave, that does not mean that you admit that to her.

All of the consequences of finances and family that you are wrestling with should be shared by you both. Get the paperwork, fill out your part, then tell her that you all need to go through the assets and this is key, you don't offer to give up a damn thing. You be a stingy, selfish, greedy, butt hole.

She needs to BELIEVE that you are willing to end it and that life will be hard and that you are not trying to give her a dime. Look at the animal kingdom. A non poisonous snake will wiggle its tail like a rattlesnake to scare off a predator, even though it has no ability to follow through. Animals will hiss, puff up and do all sorts of things that they cannot actually deliver on if the fight actually happened. The goal is to make the opponent BELIEVE that they are in for a world of hurt.

Get the paperwork, fill out some parts, give it to her and and tell her that you need to go over the financials, but that you are not giving up a damn thing without a fight. You want it all because she cheated.

You don't have to file it, you bluff with it. Also, if she says great, well then you know that you had nothing to save anyway.


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## convert

TN,
I believe Tennessee is an at fault state. Check with a lawyer.
If you can prove infidelity you may be able to get out of paying alimony.

It sounds like the proof is on her phone and since she locks her phone down it will be difficult to get the delete text messages.

It may be time for her to "lose" her phone so you can take it off site to do a recovery on it.

Now if you want to stay married to her the affair will have to stop. she or OM will have to leave the job.

One of the best ways to stop the affair is through ALL OUT Exposure aka nuclear exposure.


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## hospitality

marduk said:


> Here's what you do.
> 
> You shut the hell up to your wife. Because she hasn't been YOUR wife for a very long time. She's been a bunch of other guys' plaything. And happily so.
> 
> She is not the person right now that you think you married. That person is gone. She may come back, but she likely won't.
> 
> So what you do instead of talking to the person that used to be the woman you love is you talk to a lawyer. Because even if you can stomach with your wife constantly getting something on the side, eventually she will like what she has on the side better and stop coming home.
> 
> Then you'll have to deal with some new guy getting access to half your stuff via your ex wife. On top of also getting full sexual access to your ex wife.
> 
> Go dark. Lawyer up. Don't say a word to your 'wife.' Be gone. A lot. Gather evidence, keep it in a safe place that isn't your house.
> 
> When you get straight legal-wise, you sit down with your wife and say something like:
> 
> "Wife, I know about all the muscleheads you've been running around with. I'm not here to tell you how I know or what I know, but to tell you that I know it all and have for some time. You don't have to sneak around anymore, because our marriage is done. You no longer deserve a faithful husband like me."
> 
> Drop papers in front of her, leave.
> 
> If you're lucky, you get to kick her out of your house. If you're not, you sell it.


This is a great post and Gus has great advice too.

You must understand that people in general DO NOT respect weak people. Woman are repulsed by weak men! Ever have a weak boss? You probably were looking for a new job and so is your wife. Reverse the roles here for a second, muscle bound guy is married to your wife he walks into the bar seeing her talking to you, he kicks the crap out of you. That's how that works and that's why she never even would have been at the bar because she had respect for her muscle bound husband if the roles were reversed.

Quoted above is a great action plan. Just start hitting the gym and get yourself as fit as possible so you'll be as attractive as possible to your wife if she really comes out of this fog and other woman. Secondly, give her all the space she needs while you collect evidence. She is asking for space so she has time to bang other men. Give her plenty of time or even encourage her to go out so you can gather evidence quickly.

When you confront think of it like a skilled game of poker. Don't just lay ALL the evidence down, lay a couple of aces down in front of her and tell her she is beyond busted. Aces are recordings of her talking to OM about what she just did, texts referring to the same, pictures of her in the act, etc. Remember she WILL rationalize everything. Example, hundreds of text msgs while you are away turns into "when you are away I have lots of free time and if I was f------g him I wouldn't need to be texting him from home or the office!" But a print out of what was said is, pictures of her leaving a bar/in a car, recordings of the two getting it on in her car etc hit home. Then when she starts to rationalize play another card. Don't bring all the evidence with you. A friend even made up extra evidence that he didn't have but she believed he did because the stuff he had was picture perfect. He said he had access (works in IT) to their favorite bar's video security system so he could watch live while away or download 90 days of video. 

Just say, "honey I have three boxes with copies of ALL the evidence, one to your parents, one to your sister and one to each of the OM's wives, I suggest you tell me everything....!"

Don't fall for her BS about how could you spy....."just say you are so busted!"

Lastly, all divorced people are NOT miserable. One of my best friends dumped his serial cheater wife and upgraded to one way hotter and ten years younger who treats him like the guy he is. A second friend is living in one of those resort style apartment complexes and is having the time of his life dating women 20 years younger, bbqing it up on the weekend out at the pool, never misses a sporting even and loves the low maintenance life of resort living with single women all around. 

You deserve to be respected by this wife or the next! Go gather evidence yourself, with the help of friends or a professional. Grab a large sample size over months because your wife could take break from OM if his wife is getting suspicious or a second OM lives out of town and won't be back for a couple of weeks. Take your time and just do it!!!


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## Dycedarg

Everyone feels fear. 

You're only a coward if you let it paralyze you.


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## badmemory

Troubled,

A substantial number of the posters here have been cheated on and have reconciled with their spouses - including myself. To some degree most of us, whether we R'd or D'd, have felt the same fear/emotions that you're going through.

Generally, for those of us that have successfully reconciled, there are three common themes that are present - not necessarily 100% of us, but close: 

1) The WS was not a serial cheater

2) The WS demonstrated unconditional remorse to the BS; to include their full disclosure, transparency, and willingness to accept consequences.

3)The BS was prepared to end the marriage should the WS not comply with number two.

Number one is water under the bridge. Can't be changed. Your wife is a serial cheater. That reduces your chances, but I won't say it's not possible to R. 

However, based on how you've described your wife and yourself; I don't see that you're anywhere close to number two or three. That is why a large number of us think your best outcome is to divorce your wife.

Change number two and number three - and you've at least got a chance; though it will still be difficult. If 2 and 3 don't change; you're just fooling yourself.

Sorry, but that's the way I see it.


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## Seppuku

Sorry if this has already been said, but if you have access to the backup of her phone, you can read the text messages, even if they are deleted.

Look up Dr. Fone and Decipher Text Message. The latter works only with a local backup, but the former works for iCloud backups as well.


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## Chaparral

southernsurf said:


> Maybe he already moved over to the divorce and separation section everyone knows its inevitable. Game set match she won


She may have won the cheating town bicycle award, but he will win a new life with a new and better partner. She let her real feelings out when she was drunk.

My only criticism of the OP is he didn't knock the dirtbag fondling his wife off his bar stool. It would have saved a lot of trouble later and she would have been so impressed.


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## ThePheonix

Chappy, it looks to me like old TT would rather sit on the bar patio sipping wine while looking at his wife and thinking, "Why should I give this up; It'll wash off."


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## GusPolinski

Seppuku said:


> Sorry if this has already been said, but if you have access to the backup of her phone, you can read the text messages, even if they are deleted.
> 
> Look up Dr. Fone and Decipher Text Message. The latter works only with a local backup, but the former works for iCloud backups as well.


There's also iPhone Backup Extractor. If used correctly, it'll get damn near EVERYTHING. The Premium/Pro version can also pull from iCloud backups if desired.

Using it can be a little daunting for a non-techie, but it's fairly intuitive. Plus the developer's site has a decent blog w/ a few tutorials.


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## GusPolinski

Dycedarg said:


> Everyone feels fear.
> 
> You're only a coward if you let it paralyze you.


Well said.

@Troubled in Tennessee, I'd like the amend my first post in this thread to state the following...

_I disagree w/ you. I don't think that you're a coward.

You are, however, *being* a coward._


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## jsmart

I know it hurts to find out what she's done, especially after hearing the unanimous opinions that she's a serial cheater. More than likely she's having a PA with co-worker, and has had a few 1 night stands with various men at bar.

You should be getting with a lawyer to file D and serving her at work, kick her out of marital bed, expose to her friends & family, expose POS's to his wife, separate finances, implement 180 to detach, ALL SIMULTANEOUSLY. Shock & Awe.

You keep mentioning that you're a coward and reference that these guys are muscular. That tells me you lack confidence in being able to handle yourself in a physical altercation. I strongly suggest that you hit the gym & join a MMA gym as well. Not so you can smash POS, not that I'm against that BTW, but so that you can up your confidence levels. You will be surprised how much, even 3 months of HARD training, can change your swagger. Doing that would prove to yourself and your sons, that you're not a coward.


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## As'laDain

i think the first question that OP needs to definitively answer is...

"what am i worth?"


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## Tobin

marduk said:


> Go dark. Lawyer up. Don't say a word to your 'wife.' Be gone. A lot. Gather evidence, keep it in a safe place that isn't your house.
> 
> When you get straight legal-wise, you sit down with your wife and say something like:
> 
> "Wife, I know about all the muscleheads you've been running around with. I'm not here to tell you how I know or what I know, but to tell you that I know it all and have for some time. You don't have to sneak around anymore, because our marriage is done. You no longer deserve a faithful husband like me."
> 
> Drop papers in front of her, leave.


Great advice but it's wasted.

He already said he's incapable of standing up to her and he's afraid to divorce her.


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## Tobin

Troubled in Tennessee said:


> But, when you've got two teenage boys, your 10 years into a 30 year mortgage, you've built careers together, you're close with her sister and your BIL (look, I used an acronym), her parents, etc., it's not always just as easy as "man up" "get a lawyer" kick her arse to the curb. Yes, that's probably the outcome. But, there's a lot of collateral damage along the way.
> She'll get 60% of everything, I'll live in some crap hole apartment, hang out with other despondent divorcees. It doesn't look too rosy.


You'll take a hit for sure, but try to spin it in a more positive light.

Yes your standard of living will drop, but not forever, only while you're paying support. Your kids are older so child support won't be forever and if you're making about the same income, maybe there won't be any spousal support.

Why would she get 60%? Usually it's a 50/50 split unless one partner has assets from outside the marriage.

You'll lose roughly half of everything but you won't be sharing it with her, and you'll probably meet another woman some day (like I did) who has her own assets to share with you. No, you can't count on that but it's likely you'll eventually meet someone else so don't dismiss that possibility.

Can you really live like this forever, even if she chooses to stay with you, which she probably won't because she does not respect you.

It's going to end, might as well cut the cord now rather than waste any more time.


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## Affaircare

I would love to hear from the OP. @Troubled in Tennessee how are you doing?


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## Mr Blunt

TinT
Your wife’s accusations including you are too controlling is a bag of Shyt! How can you be controlling when you said that you are afraid of her?

You have been given some good advice already but I want to bring your attention to one fact. *That fact is that women are not attracted to men that allow themselves to be disrespected. You are being disrespected big time! *You have to change that because if you do not respect yourself then nobody will. Demand respect and do not allow your wife to humiliate you and get away with violating a LOT of what marriage is about. Yes you may lose your wife but if that is the case then it is because your wife has chosen to betray her marriage and her children and not respect decency. If she chooses that way then she really is not someone that you can spend the rest of your life with and have some dignity, contentment, and joy.* In fact if you allow her to treat you like a door mat then she will tear you down so that you will not be much good to anyone.*

Here is another fact about demanding respect or pay the consequences.; you being firm, right, and demanding respect and carrying out the consequence, will lean your wife in the direction of coming out of her fog and selfishness. If she does not become truly remorseful and show it with actions then she may wind up with another man. *Now tell me TinT, do you really think that a good and decent man is going to be looking for a woman that will betray her husband and children and hangs out at bars?* Even if she traps such a man how long is he going to stay with her? Bottom line is that your wife is really not a good catch for a good man. I know she may be good looking but her character stinks right now and no good man wants a betraying adulteress. Chances are that if you maintain your integrity and respect for yourself then she will eventually recognize that. If she does not and continues in her selfish degrading ways then she really is a woman that you will have to get over because she will be poison to your mind, body, and spirit.


The best chance for a selfish cheating woman or man is for them to start paying the heavy consequences for their actions. Hopefully she will make a 180 degree turn for the better soon. However, if she does not then she will face the added consequences of loss of respect and possible love from her children and she will find out in a few months or years with her cheating OM that real life has a way of taking the excitement out of bars, drinking, and having her ego and sexual fantasies crushed.

TinT
BUILD YOURSELF UP! You are going to face some real hard choices ans some real emotional hurtful situations and you need to be stronger or you will cave in and compromise. You are now in the jungle kingdom and only the strong survive! *Many of men in your position have come out better and so can you!*


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## aine

TiT, I really hope we have not chased you away. I understand the investment you have made in your family, financial, emotionally, time, etc. you are the head of the household. Are you going to allow your kids to grow up seeing what is happening in your home as ok. You might think they do not know, but they do. They cannot do anything about it, you can.


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## Chaparral

I'm confident he will be back with a new attitude. Its not uncommon here for betrayed spouses to start out at the rrver Denial. It just takes some longer than others to see you can't fix something that's broken if both spouses do not want it fixed.


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## Troubled in Tennessee

Good afternoon friends.
Well, I wanted to let you all know that I appreciate all of the posts. I read them all: the constructive, insightful, sympathetic and empowering ones as well as the mean-spirited, personal attack posts.
I came here to seek out some wisdom. It has been dispensed in measures that have been most helpful.
I wanted to let you all know that I had the confrontation last night. Gus, I pretty much used your speech verbatim. I was prepared for denial, rage, blame shifting, screaming, etc. Instead, I got a calm, almost relieved response. 
I don't want to get into a ton of details about everything that was said, or next steps or any of that because, quite frankly, the Arm Chair Warriors historically on this site pick apart and parse out every word and approach as being "you made a mistake there buddy". I don't need to hear that right now.
What you all did for me was help me to realize that it's probably headed for the big D. I haven't changed my mind on that although she agreed to counseling last night (I still doubt she'll possess the fortitude required to work for a complete R). In so doing, you made me realize that I CANNOT CONTROL HER ACTIONS. She has to want to work the program outlined by all of you for a complete R. That MUST come from her. Once I realized that, I was able to surrender my knee jerk, historic, almost Pavlovian response of wanting to "fix" things and let it go. Either she'll buy in or she won't. If she won't, if she doesn't do it completely, if she doesn't demonstrate remorse, it's over. And, here's the thing: I'm okay with that. Yes. I will be sad. But, it will pass. I'm worth more than I realized. The tyranny will stop.
I read Glover's "No More Mr. Nice Guy" that one of you recommended and that gave me a peace of mind as well. I am able to confront, make direct demands, reiterate my love and desire for R, but express that all of this is non-negotiable. It was amazing that I got her attention and she looked at me in a different way.
So, I guess this is a thank you note.
I'll update sporadically just to let you all know if some miracle occurs and we slog through this and somehow come out the other end. And, if it heads the other direction, I'll let you know that as well.
Thanks again.
TIT


----------



## the guy

Thanks for the up date.

I hope the confrontation was effective and you guys can your shyt together....she has a lot of heavy lifting to do, but it sound like she isn't capable of doing it?
Am I wrong?

Was there remorse?

Did she come clean?


----------



## GusPolinski

Great update, TT.

As far as next steps go, I'd recommend buying two copies of this book...

http://www.amazon.com/Help-Your-Spouse-Heal-Affair/dp/145055332X

One is for you, the other is for your wife. Read it together. At 90ish pages, it's a quick (and very good) read.

It will help you to more effectively identity what you're feeling, why you're feeling it, and how to communicate it, and it will help her to see not only how intensely her behavior has impacted you, but how she can go about helping you to heal from all of it.


----------



## Pluto2

TT, thanks for posting again. This place can get overwhelming at times. Just know your story touched a lot of folks. As a recovering co-dependent I can relate to the urge to "fix" things but it sounds as though you have made great strides. I wish you and your family the best.


----------



## Augusto

I recently read that affairs have a 5% chance of happening if spouses have full access to each others personal email and social networking sites. The 5% comes from work email, secret email, secret unknown phones, and a new private email.


----------



## gouge_away

If you ever feel pressured to subvert your will for another's.

Just say 'NO!' - Nancy Reagan


----------



## aine

TIT, glad to see you are back. I hope things work out for you and your family. If they do not, at least you know you have done all you can.


----------



## couple

Thanks for the update. I hope you are able to stay strong.

I don't mean this in a bravado or a dramatic kind of way but there comes a time in every man's life when he needs to fight even if he woke up that morning expecting a nice and normal day. For some men this comes easily and in fact many men go out looking for a good tangle but for many others it's the last thing they want to do. You are like many men in that you want to avoid a tangle. You want to believe all is well and any problems can be worked out. Words like coward are just noise and raise emotion. Think about all the men who are called into war to defend their land against an attacking enemy. Most of these guys don't want to go to war but they have no choice. These are the cards dealt to them. Life as they know it is over. They might want to believe that all will be well but they need to face the reality that it's not. So they don their gear and go out to fight. There is no choice. This is your situation. It's comforting to mix drinks on the porch and watch the sunset but that part of your life is over if she's watching the sunset with you while another guy's DNA dripping out of her. I know life is hard. Like many guys, you probably get kicked around all day at work trying to make ends meet and give your family a good life and all you want to do is mix drinks on the porch with your wife after 11 hours at work. You rightfully feel that you deserve this. But it's no longer in the cards you've been dealt. You can ignore the reality of the cards your wife has dealt to you or you can play them. A man plays the cards he's dealt and does not get stuck obsessing over the cards he wished he had or the cards he used to have.

I wish you all the luck in the world.


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## MattMatt

Well done. We will be here for you. We have your back. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Good Update Troubled.

Now go see an attorney and get good legal advice.

Do not tell your wife you are doing this.

You only tell her after she backslides which is inevitable.

Did you have her open her iPhone and place it on the same account as yours?

Your actions are just as important as hers now.

Because she has to prove to you that she honestly wants to R the marriage and will respect you as well as herself.

And you have to prove to her that ypu will be just fine in the future without her but would prefer to be with her.

Good Luck

HM


----------



## Bad Medicine

Mr Blunt said:


> You have been given some good advice already but I want to bring your attention to one fact. *That fact is that women are not attracted to men that allow themselves to be disrespected. You are being disrespected big time! *You have to change that because if you do not respect yourself then nobody will.


I don't agree with the "not attracted to men that allow themselves to be disrespected" part of what you wrote.

When I was young I dated a lot of women, and one of them that comes to mind when reading this thread cheated on me and was disrespectful. Because I had dated a lot of women I knew that had absolutely *nothing *to do with me, it wasn't because I was lacking in any way, weak, it wasn't because I didn't command respect, it wasn't because of anything I did or didn't do ... it was because the crazy chick was just screwed up. I know it was all her because she was the only woman I ever dated who was like that, and the only one who ever cheated, it was just how she was put together. I could have let her get into my head, and I'm sure that happens to a lot of men when a woman is acting out and being crazy, trying to manipulate a guy, etc, but I thought it was amusing for the most part, because I always thought she was acting like a child and never got that close to her because I could see she was a disaster waiting to happen. It ended, of course, and she's married to an alcoholic now, which figures, and I went on to date a bunch of sweet women, and my point is that you can't blame what a woman does on the man she's with, because some women are just screwed up and they'd be screwed up no matter who they're with.

TL;DR I think you're wrong, some women are just screwed up, it doesn't reflect badly on the guy she's with because some women don't respect anybody.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by Mr Blunt View Post
> You have been given some good advice already but I want to bring your attention to one fact. That fact is that women are not attracted to men that allow themselves to be disrespected. You are being disrespected big time! You have to change that because if you do not respect yourself then nobody will.
> 
> 
> *By Bad medicine*
> I don't agree with the "not attracted to men that allow themselves to be disrespected" part of what you wrote.
> 
> When I was young I dated a lot of women, and one of them that comes to mind when reading this thread cheated on me and was disrespectful. Because I had dated a lot of women I knew that had absolutely nothing to do with me, it wasn't because I was lacking in any way, weak, it wasn't because I didn't command respect, it wasn't because of anything I did or didn't do ... it was because the crazy chick was just screwed up. I know it was all her because she was the only woman I ever dated who was like that, and the only one who ever cheated, it was just how she was put together. I could have let her get into my head, and I'm sure that happens to a lot of men when a woman is acting out and being crazy, trying to manipulate a guy, etc, but I thought it was amusing for the most part, because I always thought she was acting like a child and never got that close to her because I could see she was a disaster waiting to happen. It ended, of course, and she's married to an alcoholic now, which figures, and I went on to date a bunch of sweet women, and my point is that you can't blame what a woman does on the man she's with, because some women are just screwed up and they'd be screwed up no matter who they're with.
> 
> TL;DR I think you're wrong, some women are just screwed up, it doesn't reflect badly on the guy she's with because some women don't respect anybody.




The first question I have to ask you is DID YOU READ TROUBLED IN TENNESSEE’s POSTS?

Here below I have reprinted a FEW QUOTES FORM THE OP



> By *Troubled in Tennessee*
> Last summer, *I caught my wife with another guy at a bar*
> We retreat and have a Mexican standoff until one of us (usually *me) apologizes and makes everything better. It's like "do anything to just get everything back to normal*...an eternal quest for homeostatic bliss
> 
> I go into the bar and she and Mr. muscles have moved in from the patio and are now sitting with each other at the bar. *I was hurt and fuming. I just looked at her and said, "Why?". She just ignored me. I went home. Just pizzed off.*
> 
> *He was rubbing her back and she had her head on his shoulder*. I'm friends with the bartenders and one of them just looked at me and mouthed, "sorry". I walked up to her and said, "honey, it's time to go home". She tells the guy, "sorry. I guess I need to leave." She gets up and starts walking out. I just look at the guy and said, "What the F?" He was too drunk to respond.
> 
> That night was the most painful night of our marriage. *She called me every name in the book*. Everything from "you're too controlling. You're such an a$$hole. You make me watch all of your tv shows. I don't even know how to use the remote. You decide where we go out to eat. You're a control freak. Everything has to revolve around you. *F you. I want a divorce.* I know you're smart but you have to let everyone know it...and on and on and on."
> *I was in tears.*
> 
> I really don't think she went all the way with any of these guys, but I'm guessing they made out and probably groped...maybe a handy.
> 
> *It's clear that she tells him when I'm out of town.* It starts at like 6 a.m. and continues throughout the day and goes until as late as midnight. Then it starts back up early in the morning. They even text each other all day, even though they work in the same office, like two cubicles away!
> *I am TORN UP*!
> 
> 
> It's been going on for 7 months. So, all of the work we've done to rebuild trust, spend time together, it's all out the window. She is lying and being deceitful and I'm crushed.
> 
> *But, here's the thing: I am a coward. I haven't confronted her about it and I've known for 4 months.
> I'm afraid of her.*
> 
> Right now, I think I'm too big of a coward to confront her. I'm torn up. I'm not sleeping well.


This man has allowed her to treat him like a door mat and disrespect him BIG TIME over and over again. His wife is not attracted to him and has proven that many times and she does not respect him. If he wants any chance of women to respect him he needs to respect himself and stop crying and being afraid of a woman that is treating him like a door mat.

I will say that his last few posts shows that he is starting to change things.

Finally, my post was about the OP that has been allowing his wife to walk on him for months if not years.* I did not base my posts that you responded to, on your experience, but the OP’s experience*. If you do not see that this man has allowed himself to be walked on, based on the OP’s posts, then there is nothing that I can say that will change your mind. In addition, if you think that a woman is going to be attracted to a person that has repeatedly allowed someone to walk on him then we will have to agree to disagree.


----------



## turnera

It's basic psychology. It's in women's DNA - goes back to caveman days. Women want - NEED - strong men who PROTECT them. That's how we've stayed alive for the past 20,000 years, by choosing strong men who protect us. When we hook up with a man who won't protect us, who won't succeed, who won't fight other men off, or who kiss our ass just to keep us...it disgusts us. It turns us off. It makes us lose attraction for him. It makes us LEAVE him (or, for some, cheat on him).


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## jasoncampbell

Make sure you stay on her about your expectations, do not even give an inch. I second the suggestions to speak to an attorney. Stay ahead of her. More importantly use your gut on this one. You've been with this woman for 20 years, and your OP shows just how capable she is of putting you into a role of feeling sorry for her and yourself, do not regress to that state. Keep a diary, because this thread isn't enough to remind you. You need to keep track of how this dynamic is playing out. I don't mean to rain on your parade, I honestly wish for the best... but realistically as another poster pointed out, a serial cheat is going to always need attention. If you can provide that for the rest of your lives and she maintains interest in your new self confidence, great... but also please be aware that she may digress, slowly but surly, back into a role of "grass is greener."

You need to watch her remorse, and NEVER let your guard down on this. The thing about R is that without the remorse, the cheater has learned one thing. That they can get you back even if they get caught. They have also learned, they need to be more careful.

The one really bad sign I picked up from your OP is that your ex seemed to do a pretty good job of hiding this all from you, until that one night she got a little too drunk at the bar. She seems to share some commonalities with my ex (my post was recently updated and is on the main page titled "Emotional Affair?"...). The guilt your wife has expressed is in expressing a need to have her own time. From now on that is a red flag to you. You two need to talk about personal time and take it when you need it, not guilt each other into receiving it. When she told you to stop texting her so much, she was basically telling you "this other dude is fulfilling me there, and you're just getting in the way."

I took the long road to an exit (11 months)... enduring a lot of pain I probably could have avoided if I had recognized from the start that she had patterns. Instead I was quick to give a pass, and stopped short of uncovering what I needed to discover early on. I am so freaking glad I did not become a more attractive option to her from the initial discovery... whether it would have been 1 year, 3 or 5... she was going to do it again, no matter what I did.

If it ever feels like you're just going through the motions, and she's not actively either making it up to you or giving you her attention... then it' a sure sign she's cheating again.

Maintain your expectations. Do not go easy on her with them. If this is going to work it is her responsibility, and hers alone, to make you know she is grateful for the second chance. Under no circumstances should you be in a role to hold that over her head and ask for her appreciation. If you find yourself there again, that's a sign of regression back into the codependent state again. That state that left you docile and frustrated, and her bored and wandering.


----------



## morituri

Embrace reality and treat a fake spouse as such.


----------



## OldWolf57

JC, THANK YOU !!! 

T, pay close attention to what he is saying. His knowledge is hard won and recent.


----------



## ThePheonix

Bad Medicine said:


> I don't agree with the "not attracted to men that allow themselves to be disrespected" part of what you wrote.
> 
> When I was young I dated a lot of women, and one of them that comes to mind when reading this thread *cheated on me and was disrespectful. *


Dawg, you're making the guy's case that said, "not attracted to men that allow themselves to be disrespected". My advise is when they disrespect you, get rid of them. Women don't love men they disrespect. They may become a human parasite and live off you, but they don't love you.


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## GusPolinski

How are you holding up, @TT?

Hopefully you made it through the weekend OK.

Relatively speaking, of course. I know this sucks.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Troubled in Tennessee said:


> I don't want to get into a ton of details about everything that was said, or next steps or any of that because, quite frankly, the Arm Chair Warriors historically on this site pick apart and parse out every word and approach as being "you made a mistake there buddy". I don't need to hear that right now.


If that conversation didn't end with, "I'm filing for a divorce" then you made a mistake there buddy. Any action on her part is remorse for being caught not for her actions. She was so brazen and disrespectful she will NEVER see you as her man. 


READ THIS POST AGAIN:



turnera said:


> It's basic psychology. It's in women's DNA - goes back to caveman days. Women want - NEED - strong men who PROTECT them. That's how we've stayed alive for the past 20,000 years, by choosing strong men who protect us. When we hook up with a man who won't protect us, who won't succeed, who won't fight other men off, or who kiss our ass just to keep us...it disgusts us. It turns us off. It makes us lose attraction for him. It makes us LEAVE him (or, for some, cheat on him).


To your wife, YOU'RE THAT GUY. No "R" will ever change her mind.


----------



## TX-SC

Well, except for the fact that we, as humans, must be more than our past. If women must have a strong protector type, since it's "in your DNA" then men must have the right to **** anything that moves? That's part of the whole "promiscuous herd" mentality of our ancestors. Tag it and then move on. Spread that DNA around!

But, we, as men, are required to be MORE than that. We don't give into those cravings after marriage. So, why do women get a free pass here?

The truth is that there are a lot of women who long for a caring man that will do anything for her. OP, there are some great women out there. If things do not work with your wife, do yourself a favor and move on.


----------



## GusPolinski

Actually, if you look at how different OP's WW's behavior toward him is when she's been drinking vs when she's sober, it seems pretty clear that her underlying problem is alcoholism.


----------



## turnera

TX-SC said:


> Well, except for the fact that we, as humans, must be more than our past. If women must have a strong protector type, since it's "in your DNA" then men must have the right to **** anything that moves? That's part of the whole "promiscuous herd" mentality of our ancestors. Tag it and then move on. Spread that DNA around!
> 
> But, we, as men, are required to be MORE than that. We don't give into those cravings after marriage. So, why do women get a free pass here?
> 
> The truth is that there are a lot of women who long for a caring man that will do anything for her. OP, there are some great women out there. If things do not work with your wife, do yourself a favor and move on.


What makes you think men DON'T want to f*ck anything that moves? What KEEPS them from doing it is knowing they will face consequences.


----------



## TX-SC

turnera said:


> What makes you think men DON'T want to f*ck anything that moves? What KEEPS them from doing it is knowing they will face consequences.


What keeps them from doing it is dedication to the spouse they said vows to. Therefore, we can acknowledge that we would love to be able to screw anyone we want. But, we move PAST that desire and act as rational adults. We don't let that DNA control us.

So, why do you think women MUST be controlled by their DNA/prehistoric past? Women no longer NEED man to be their protector.


----------



## sparrow555

turnera said:


> What makes you think men DON'T want to f*ck anything that moves? What KEEPS them from doing it is knowing they will face consequences.


Men want to **** anything that moves and the only thing stopping them is consequences ?

How about not using blatant sexist statements next time ?


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## turnera

meh
Just responding to the one right before mine.


----------



## TX-SC

GusPolinski said:


> Actually, if you look at how different OP's WW's behavior toward him is when she's been drinking vs when she's sober, it seems pretty clear that her underlying problem is alcoholism.


Yep, looks like she has an alcohol issue as much as anything. I would recommend making it a requirement that she stop drinking if you are going to R. That may require addiction counseling for her.


----------



## Ceegee

TinT,

It may seem that it's all over now that you've had this conversation with your W when, in actuality, this is just the beginning.

Apply your W's behavior in the marriage to how your R or D are going to go and you'll get the picture.

FWIW, my situation was very similar to yours. Enough so that parts of what you wrote were painful for me to read. 

If I only knew then what I know now.

Please come back here and let us know how things are progressing.


----------



## GusPolinski

intheory said:


> Are you "gorgeous"? Don't be conceited or falsely modest. Really evaluate your looks. *If you're not gorgeous; she has much more power than you in the relationship. The gorgeous person always does.*
> 
> People who like to "smother", should be with other people who like to "smother" (Smother = show love, tenderness and concern).
> 
> People who need "space", should be with other people who like "space". That way they get the emotional distance they need; and neither one knows completely what the other is up to. So, they *both *get kept on their toes.
> 
> Not carousing on business trips. Being "tame" (ie, loyal and loving), wanting to hear from your wife. Being hurt when she rejects you. These are all highly desirable virtues; fwiw.
> 
> If you did go out drinking and visit strip clubs with the "boys" while on business trips; it sounds that this would make *your* wife respect you more. Weird, huh?
> 
> Best of luck to you, whatever you decide.


It's worth noting that this (in bold above) is true ONLY if the "less gorgeous" partner acknowledges it in such a way and to the degree that he or she is willing to put up w/ sh*t from the "more gorgeous" partner for the sake of holding onto said "more gorgeous" partner.

Case in point... I'm not hideous, but I am overweight. My wife, on the other hand, is far, far closer to her ideal weight (she's actually only a few pounds heavier than she was when we started dating) than I am, and she's pretty damn cute to boot.

That said, I would die alone, freezing, and covered in my own vomit on the floor of a rest stop men's room before I'd tolerate the type of bullsh*t from her (or, for that matter, any other woman) that OP's WW has been throwing at him.


----------



## Ceegee

GusPolinski said:


> It's worth nothing that this (in bold above) is true ONLY if the "less gorgeous" partner acknowledges it in such a way and to the degree that he or she is willing to put up w/ sh*t from the "more gorgeous" partner for the sake of holding onto said "more gorgeous" partner.
> 
> Case in point... I'm not hideous, but I am overweight. My wife, on the other hand, is far, far closer to her ideal weight (she's actually only a few pounds heavier than she was when we started dating) than I am, and she's pretty damn cute to boot.
> 
> That said, I would die alone, freezing, and covered in my own vomit on the floor of a rest stop men's room before I'd tolerate the type of bullsh*t from her (or any other woman, for the matter) that OP's WW has been throwing at him.


Yeah, but as the "Polka King of the Midwest" you also have the fame women desire.

Beauty is an advantage that fades in time. 

Women know this which is why they try to "upgrade" before time runs out.


----------



## GusPolinski

Ceegee said:


> Yeah, but as the "Polka King of the Midwest" you also have the fame women desire.


LOL. I wish.



Ceegee said:


> Beauty is an advantage that fades in time.
> 
> Women know this which is why they try to "upgrade" before time runs out.


Hey, that's fine. Men and women both should be fully aware that, while they're free to "upgrade" any time they like, there won't be any option to "downgrade" (though so many seem to do exactly that, LOL).

Same goes for my wife and I.

I ain't Windows, baby... no "rollback" feature here.


----------



## lostmyreligion

OP, my wife was a binge drinker. It was always none or 10 - nothing in between. 

She pulled all sorts of funky sh!t when she was drunk. Up to and including jumping the fence one night to 'hang out' with the old, short, divorced-and-single, overweight, alcoholic prick of a neighbor while I was trying to catch a few hours of sleep before work. 

And yeah, I thought she was a 10.

It was a hellish cycle that I didn't even realize I was trapped in. Kind of like the proverbial frog in the pot of water on the stove. I had been putting up with it so long that I didn't realize it was killing me. 

The simple fact was that I enabled her drinking by putting up with it. 

The boiling point came with my wife clocking me in the nose in front of our teen age and adult children on Christmas Eve. It was the first and (so far) last time that she had ever gotten violent. She was angry that I had hidden the remaining booze to prevent her from getting falling-down in front of them.

Long story short, the next morning she realized it in my face, and heard it in my voice, that I was done. I told her flatly that I was going to leave and do every thing in my power to shield the children from her and her true love, the bottle.

She realized she was going to lose everything and to her credit, immediately set about making things right, with both the children and I. She has not touched a drop since.

The way she managed to quit is kind of interesting. Both of us are atheist, so the usual AA 12 step route wasn't going to work. Instead, she researched alternatives, and came across Kratom. It's an equatorial herb with mildly narcotic properties. If you saw "Captain Philips", it's the bush that the pirates are chewing. 

What it has is an alkaloid that closely mimics opium but isn't. It's *mildly* addictive at about the same level as coffee. You ingest it, but it seriously tastes like crap, so it's nearly impossible to overdo it without getting sick to your stomach. My wife makes her own caps out of the powder so she can get it past her tongue and throat. You can buy it legally both in the States and here in Canada. 

As I said, I thought she was a 10 when she was still drinking. In fact she was a 44 year old woman who looked like a 50 something yr old woman trying to look 30 something.

Now that she's quit, she's a 47 yr old woman who looks like a ridiculously beautiful woman in her early thirties without even trying.

And our relationship has never been better.


----------



## Tobin

lostmyreligion said:


> Both of us are atheist, so the usual AA 12 step route wasn't going to work..


I've known athiests who have gone through the AA program. 

Just filter out the religious craptrap. There's plenty of good stuff in there.


----------



## badmemory

Tobin said:


> I've known athiests who have gone through the AA program.
> 
> Just filter out the religious craptrap. There's plenty of good stuff in there.


That's correct.

I'm agnostic and I went through it. It's really the most statically successful program going. You don't have to acknowledge that you believe in any God; and you won't be brow beat because you don't.


----------



## Heywhats

I feel so badly for you and my heart goes out to you along with my prayers. I've been reading posts on here for a while and have posted once. My opinion is most often people suggest divorce. Rarely do I see a post that suggests reconciliation can work. That people can change. That God can heal marriages. Maybe I'm too much of an optimist but I believe you should format a plan with your therapist to confront your wife and see where it goes from there. You are obviously living in misery and that is not a healthy option. Please keep us posted.


----------



## GusPolinski

Heywhats said:


> I feel so badly for you and my heart goes out to you along with my prayers. I've been reading posts on here for a while and have posted once. My opinion is most often people suggest divorce. Rarely do I see a post that suggests reconciliation can work. That people can change. That God can heal marriages. Maybe I'm too much of an optimist but I believe you should format a plan with your therapist to confront your wife and see where it goes from there. You are obviously living in misery and that is not a healthy option. Please keep us posted.


Reconciliation is a perfectly viable option in a great many scenarios involving a marital crisis, and that's even when things like substance abuse and/or infidelity has been thrown into the mix.

But ONLY if certain conditions are met. For example, damaging behaviors HAVE to stop. Accountability needs to be in place. Boundaries need to be both established and respected.

After all, one cannot reasonable expect to continue to do exactly all the things that have brought a given marriage to its breaking point and yet somehow wind up w/ a better marriage.

And a better marriage should ALWAYS be the goal where reconciliation is concerned, yes?


----------



## ThePheonix

GusPolinski said:


> It's worth nothing that this (in bold above) is true ONLY if the "less gorgeous" partner acknowledges it in such a way and to the degree that he or she is willing to put up w/ sh*t from the "more gorgeous" partner for the sake of holding onto said "more gorgeous" partner.


I guess either one, I don't appreciate beauty enough, or two, that's too much like call living in hell. Either one, the other, or both, this old boy ain't ever seen a chick that gorgeous. I'll hang with the one that does me right.


----------



## GusPolinski

ThePheonix said:


> I guess either one, I don't appreciate beauty enough, or two, that's too much like call living in hell. Either one, the other, or both, this old boy ain't ever seen a chick that gorgeous. I'll hang with the one that does me right.


Ever been out to a bar, club, or other similar venue, seen the hottest, most gorgeous woman there, and then realized that she's there alone?

Want to know why?

It's because somewhere out there... there's a guy that's sick to death of her sh*t.


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## GusPolinski

Just checking in...

How have you been, @TT?


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## lostmyreligion

Tobin said:


> I've known athiests who have gone through the AA program.
> 
> Just filter out the religious craptrap. *There's plenty of good stuff in there.*


Yah, I know there is and that's why it works for so many. For that matter, I wouldn't go so far as to call the religious component claptrap either. It's in there because it provides an externally validating and vital leg of support for those who might relapse and fall otherwise.

She's told me that she had tried AA prior to meeting me and was just unable to get past it. Given her take on theism, I believe there's a lot to that.

In that I'm an unbeliever as well, it's not something I could have tried to push her past.

I think more to the truth though, is that she hadn't quite hit bottom before we met. And I kept that (necessary) step from happening by being too much of a coward to put my foot down for so long. 

My understanding of the kratom is that it's used fairly extensively, if colloquially, to treat more serious addictions. My wife says it controls her craving for alcohol completely.

There's very little change in her personality, outside of being a little bit more relaxed. 

All said, I mention it as an option, but would caution anyone considering using it to do their own research.


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## LongWalk

Good thread. Road Scholar paid a visit. Nice.


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## Troubled in Tennessee

Well, I thought I'd check back in with you all to give you an update. I appreciated all of the kind words as well as the challenging words that you all wrote when I confronted my wife.
As many of you quickly predicted, our marriage is indeed over. I've already met with a lawyer and she is doing the same tomorrow. She told me that she wants a divorce. I knew that was a consequence of confrontation, that doing the actual work to reconcile would be more than she could handle. But, I stood firm. She realized that it would require a ton of effort and forgiveness and boundaries, etc. 
So, the last few weeks have been hell. Rather than taking any ownership for her actions, she again shifted the blame on me. "Too controlling, I've done everything, you've done nothing, I'm not attracted to you anymore, and on and on"
We have agreed to do a collaborative divorce to keep from mud slinging and spending every dime we have. But, that also means that she will be in for a rude awakening when she realizes that she won't be able to stay in the house and keep the kids. The collaborative process pretty much means that we work with "neutral coaches" who look at assets and debts. So, at that point it becomes a business transaction and mathematic formula. 
I hope that she moves into an apartment and goes to happy hour every night until she finds what she's looking for. I realize that my healing and grieving will take time. I don't know what life looks like without her. But, I do know that I won't have to put up with the picking and the feelings of inadequacies. It will feel nice to hopefully find someone who loves me and is kind.
Again, thanks for all your support.


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## Marduk

The days ahead will be hard but the years ahead will be much better without this woman in your life (so much).


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## bandit.45

Good to hear you will be getting this unrepentant selfish harpy out of your life. You picked a lemon. It's alright, many men do. What you need to do now is take care of yourself and do a hard 180 on her. I will post the 180 below. It will help you to detach from her emotionally. Avoid her as much as possible.


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## bandit.45

*THE 180*

So many on here are at a loss at what to do with a WS who is
fence sitting, cake-eating, ignoring boundaries, still seeing and/or contacting the other person, etc...

Many BS's are urged to go No Contact with their WS after ALL ELSE has failed.


This 180 list may help.
--------------------------


For those that are interested in Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list, here it is:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow him/her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him/her someone he/she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.
23. Do not argue about how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and possibly walk away.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.


2 things to think about if you do this:

1) You have to do the 180 list NOT to be manipulative but because it's the right thing to do for you. You have to heal from this experience. You have to back off for your own sanity now. You have to have a plan and know that you will be a better person with or without them after all is said and done -- that you will live and learn and move on no matter what. So you have to be geniune when you follow these ideas, rather than faking it and being insincere because your only goal is to get them back. That's not what you want to do. Having a certain person as our spouse is not a need, it's a want. When I wrote down a list of all the definite needs in my life, I realized that almost everything beyond food, clothing and shelter is a want. 10 seconds after I looked at the list, I stopped making decisions based on emotion. That's when I realized that my wanting to have her was causing me to beg and plead for her to come back. That was driving her away more so I stopped doing it immediately. In doing my own version of the 180 list I could tell nearly an immediate change in her behavior.

2) Realize that when your spouse sees your new attitude they are very likely to be a little jealous or at least have some curiosity about what's going on in your life to cause this change. However, they very well may react the same way towards you for some time (especially if they read books or go to message boards also). REALIZE that this tactic can also work simultaneously on you if the spouse begins to likewise. Be aware of it and plan to have your own feelings of jealousy and curiosity in advance. However, like with #1 above, if you're doing the 180 list to better yourself and everyone involved, then it will matter less what they are doing.


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## Chaparral

Finding a good man at her age will be a problem. The odds are actually against her getting remarried.

You on the other hand, will be in high demand.

Did you expose the other man she was texting with. You have to know that was an affair.


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## JohnA

In an earlier post you stated she would get 60% and you would live in a crappy apartment. Now you get the house. What happened? What did your lawyer advise you as to what to expect asva final outcome ?

Have you exposed yet? If not why not ?

Going foward if you do the 180 you will find a large measure of peace. Cannot begin to tell you how content you will be,


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## just got it 55

just got it 55 said:


> OP I am pretty certain this will end in D
> 
> So why not do this now and on your terms
> 
> or at least the best terms you can get
> 
> Your not in limbo
> 
> You are in hell
> 
> Get out and save what's left of you life and dignity.
> 
> 55
> 
> ETA: Just for sh!ts and giggles let me add (and you will read this all the time on TAM)
> 
> You have to be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it.


Sorry Brother I was hoping for a better outcome

55


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## HobbesTheTiger

Hi. Thanks for the update!

Some advice:
1. Go buy a VAR (voice activated recorder) or a GoPro thingy immediately and use it to record all your interactions with her. She might try to falsely accuse you of domestic violence to the police. Better safe than sorry, and there have been betrayed husbands here who were hit with false DV charges. If possible, ask someone to come stay with you in the house until one of you moves out (make up a reason for him/her staying).

2. Start documenting your and her care for the kids immediately. I recommend you be as detailed as possible, and I recommend you send the details of the day every day to a good friend of yours or to an alternate e-mail account so you will have time-stamped proof in case collaborative divorce falls through and you'll be forced to enter a custody battle.

3. Set up individual counselling for yourself IMMEDIATELY! You need professional help in dealing with this level of betrayal&shock. Find someone with experience in infidelity and/or PTSD. That was paramount in bearing the pain and healing myself.

4. Go see your doctor about STD testing. Be aware that if you have sex with her even in a moment of weakness, you risk getting an STD and/or getting her pregnant.

5. Continue to confide in your friends&family about this. You need and deserve their support. 

6. Make sure you eat, sleep and exercise as much as possible. If you're having trouble, talk to your doctor or a pharmacist. DO NOT DRINK ALCOHOL. It's way too easy to spiral out of control. I stopped myself quite close to becoming an alcoholic in the aftermath of it all.

7. Google "No more mr. nice guy pdf", it's a great book available online for free that might be a source of great strength and self-esteem for you, as it was for me. Also, google "Codependent no more pdf", also available online for free. Another great book to read on this topic is "Married man sex life primer", I'd recommend you go to the library and get a copy of it, as it will help in the future.

8. Set up counselling for the kids ASAP! As long as they have one emotionally healthy and mature parent (i.e. you) AND access to a good children's counsellor, they have every chance of coming out of this as emotionally healthy young adults.

9. Most of all, keep talking to us, the more you talk to us, the more we can help you and support you!

Best wishes


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## jasoncampbell

I see a big difference in the tone... you are getting there and you have much brighter days ahead. Many of us have been there, exactly where you are, so take note of the advice it'll keep you sane and get you through the mess much quicker than you think. IMO you are lucky you've both come to realize this soon that it is unrecoverable. Kudos to you for holding your soon to be Exe to that, and not letting her snake out of her responsibility. So many lie to themselves and hold on, for security... believing the lies just to cover up the pain. You are not doing that, which is incredibly positive!

Here is some advice:
- Stop letting anything she says to you matter (emotionally). She is reeling from her own pain in this, and responding in kind to her nastiness will only delay the healing for you. Also the best revenge is indifference, when dealing with someone like this.
- Avoid taking an active role in "showing her" anything... be it, how wrong she was, the mistakes she's bound to make and is already making moving forward.
- Regret is something you will crave in this... for her to regret her decisions. Let that go. The sooner you do, the sooner you will be free. It's apples and oranges to compare yourself to her, you both are two different people.
- You couldn't change her in the marriage, so note that there is absolutely no way you will ever change her outside of it.
- She lied, and cheated/disrespected you inside the marriage, so expect the same outside. The sooner you accept this is just who she is and she has a right to be that way... it's her life... the sooner you'll move past it.
- Leave emotion out of it. You certainly seem the logical type (remind me a lot of myself) and I can tell you it'll go A LONG way in staying in front of her on things. She sounds like an emotional wreck, like my Ex... I found as soon as I started treating everything like a business and left all emotions out of our talks, and negotiations that she actually started falling in line. In a weird way. I assume this is because she had a really messed up childhood and never learned to take accountability for her actions. Her parents never taught her that. So in a weird way, she is still a child, and ironically when you treat her like one, she actually starts to fall in line. That said, don't belittle or talk down to her, but just hold stern to your decisions and don't fall into the games she is inevitably going to play through emotions. She will throw temper tantrums, and try to drag you into them. When she doesn't like how the divorce is going, she will result to emotions, not logic. She will stop playing the games when she realizes they have no impact on you.

I saved the most important for last:
- Find yourself before you find someone else. I promise you that you will think you are ready... WAY before you actually are. I learned this the hard way and I broke a few hearts in the process of finding myself. I can promise you that any person who walks into your life while you are still broken is going to pay the price for it. If you find someone willing to cling on, you'll love it at first... but that is a fixer, not a compatible mate for life. In your current state that is exactly what you feel you WANT, someone to be loyal and hang on to you, but that is not what you NEED, I promise you. 2 years after my divorce, after these roller coasters I finally just focused on myself and did what I wanted to do. I found myself in that, who I really was and I became happy regardless of who was or wasn't there with me. It wasn't long after that, when I wasn't looking that the perfect woman walked into my life. Someone who opened my eyes to things I never could have imaged. A soulmate of sorts. I would have called myself crazy with such talk 5 years ago... I was so robotic at the time. Now I can't imagine a life without this sort of connection, and understanding. I am so thankful she walked into my life when she did, because I would have missed her if she had come a year earlier (I was a pathetic mess and she would have seen right through that, constantly analyzing and complaining about my divorce... do not fall for someone who will comfort you while you spin on things you've unresolved in)... at that time I was still just looking to correct the mistake that was my first marriage. 

I can't stress that enough. It sounds so cliche, but fight any urge to fill a gap in your life. You have 50 years left... or more. You're in no rush. If you ever feel you are, you're not ready. Best of luck to you my friend!


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## happyman64

Troubled



> I don't know what life looks like without her.


Anything has to be an improvement over your current situation.

I'm glad you two agree on a collaborative divorce.

Let us know how that works out for both if you.

HM


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## Finwe

Thank you for sharing. I was going to tell you how sorry I am for your D, but Louis CK says it better, 

"Don't go, 'ohhhh I'm sorry.' That's a stupid thing to say. First of all you're making 'em feel bad for being really happy, which isn't fair. And second of all: divorce is always good news. I know that sounds weird, but it's true, because no good marriage has ever ended in divorce. It's really that simple."

I sincerely hope you are really happy after the dust settles.


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## knobcreek

She has likely had dozens of affairs your entire marriage. Your entire marriage was likely a fraud unfortunately. Sucks... But at least you get to write your own script on how it moves forward. It doesn't sound like you're losing much here to be honest, your wife sounds horrible.


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## Sports Fan

Dont be surprised if she actually hits you up for reconcilliation once the realities of just how much she has lost sinks in for her. I bet she thinks she will get to keep the house cars kids etc with you supplementing it all.

Stay Strong. Your new life has only just begun. 

You will experience a short term spike in pain in return for long term happiness.


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## OldWolf57

T, knock off that modesty stuff, yeah,, you got faults, but for God sakes, look at your darn positives for a change.
Today's world is NOT build for men that advertize, or hide their goodness,, so find the balance, that fit you, but ALSO SHOW !!

No monday morning sofa crap,, it's done, you still young,, live my man !!


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## NoMoreTears4me

I read this thread all the way and realize that our stories are similar in so many ways. 

Not so much the drinking or number of affaris. But the things said, blame, etc. And the things you have said. Blaming your self, afraid of confrontation.

Our marriages are over. Both 20 something years with kids. Both have had lots of memories and good times. Both ended with the wife making terrible decisions at around the same age.

It sucks. Sucks big time. I feel sorry for my kids. I still love my wife but I am learning to hate her. I have plenty of problems but what our wifes did is just plain evil.


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## weightlifter

Read the threads by posters BFF and Whyeme. Horrible beginnings. EPIC endings. Yes I know its going to be a while. Just showing there IS a road up.


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## DavidWYoung

If it helps at all, I am 58 6 feet 2 inches 195lbs Single and I have two 25 year old single mother girlfriends. Sometimes I have to send them home just to get some peace and quiet, but it is still better than being married to that WOMAN I was married to! Just my 2 cents!


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## JohnA

Also read's Murduk's post on where he was one year out. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/27426-what-ive-learned-past-year-good-news-story.html

The way he breaks it down will enable you to see how doable it is.


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## cbnero

At my signal, unleash hell.


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## Popcorn2015

Did she ever admit to the affairs?


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