# Huge turn of events, now extremely confused



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Warning: long post

6 years together, a year married, love of my life and I am hers.

I have posted here many times about a lack of sex drive on her part, and no initiation to speak of. Because the sex is good, and she knows what she's doing and enjoys it immensely, that has been enough, in my eyes.

It could be better, in terms of her desiring me and initiating and making me feel wanted, but it's never been like that, so I deal and keep the complaining to a minimum. She makes sure I am well taken care of the 2-4 times a month we are intimate, and she most definitely enjoys herself. She is multi orgasmic and there's little we haven't done or tried in the bedroom. 

I've never complained about that, obviously, but outside of the bedroom, she is a prude, to put it nicely. She will even tell you that herself, using that word. Any sex talk shuts her down. There's no sexual touching allowed (grab her butt, boobs, etc.)

Last week, she came out to me as asexual - at least that's what she believes she is.

I have heard the term before, and thought little of it. Makes sense that it exists, especially within the confines of sexual labels (ie. hetero, ****, bi).

I have been gentle with her since hearing this admission, but I have many questions, and of course I don't want to believe it.

But it makes sense, as far as the checklist for asexuality goes. Bottom line, asexuals identify as never having had sexual thoughts, never feeling the desire to be sexual/have sex, never having physical urges, etc. They don't see what the big deal is in regards to physical, sexual intimacy, simply because it's not there.

My wife has said this over the years - that she's never felt the desire to have sex and doesn't think about sex, and never HAS thought about sex. She has said that she could live the rest of her life without sex because it isn't important to her - and she said this long before she even knew that asexuality was a thing.

I have long known that she is on a different plane, sexually, than I am, but I always chalked it up to numerous things - LD; been there, done that; bad attitude towards sex; past history; etc. you name it.

I have known what asexuality is in general. I knew it was a sexual orientation. Even though all the signs pointed towards my wife being one, I never put two and two together, probably because I didn't want to.

I have always held out hope that she could work out her sexual "issues", or that she'd find herself at some point. I thought that maybe she could learn to be sexual. I thought that having a loyal, loving and understanding husband might gradually allow herself to come out sexually and be comfortable. I thought that it could change.

Asexuals don't change. They are what they are. They can't change their orientation any more than you and I can.

This has hit me hard, because now there's no hope. We have a sex life, she enjoys the act and gains physical pleasure from it, more than the average woman, I think. But it's 100% physical, and 100% only DURING the act. There IS no before or after. There is no anticipation, and there is no afterglow. There is not flirty behavior throughout the day in anticipation of what's to come later. There are no tremendous feelings of love and closeness after.

She is only capable of physical excitement and stimulation, and at that, it's only in the moment. There is no desire for me, or for sex.

Now, the selfish part of this - we men, like it or not, need to be desired, especially physically. It's in our nature, it's part of being a guy. We are physical beings, and we require physical and sexual contact to make us feel wanted. It is what it is. We show our love, and feel love in return, through physical and sexual contact, and it's how our emotional needs are met as well.

I do not know what this feels like. To have someone feel, and show, a physical/sexual desire for me - part of what makes us feel like successful male partners. I have been married before, to a woman who ultimately admitted she did not feel any physical attraction to me. She dated, and married me, because I was "different" than the other men she had in her life before. I provided all the things she desired, without feeling any sexual attraction to me. She was tired of being treated like an object for sex, and I did not do that. As a result, she eventually sought out other men to provide the physical part that she was missing, all the while being quite content with the home life and emotional connection we had.

I am now in the same boat - yet different. It is happening again, minus the cheating. I now have a partner who only values/needs me for the emotional aspects of a relationship and has no use for the sexual part. On the bright side, at least she won't cheat on me, I guess.

I am not a beta male. I had been turned into one in my past marriage, but I shook that pretty quick after it was over - no TAM necessary.

But I don't feel like a man. I don't know what it's like to pursue or be pursued or to be wanted physically or to have a woman be attracted to me in that way. My first girlfriend, we dated for 3 years. I was single for about 4 months before I met my ex wife. In those 4 months, I had a rebound relationship with a girl who was also in a rebound at the same time. It was awkward, and there was really no physical attraction to speak of (rebounds, right?) We were both looking to fill the emotional void, and we did. She also came out as a lesbian later on in life. Sheesh.

I was with my ex wife for 14 years, and there was no real physical desire there. When we split up, I did not do the rebound thing. I was single and enjoyed it, and did my own thing, and had no use for a relationship, and I actually didn't think about sex. I think I was really put off of sex at that moment, because of the cheating that had gone on in that marriage.

Then I met my wife. It took us about a month to get physical, there was no rush. I initiated. I have initiated ever since. It only dawned on me later on that she never initiated sex. Honeymoon period, I guess. She also never said no. Sex was several times a week early on, which is not uncommon. Middle of the afternoon, middle of the night, first thing in the morning - didn't matter. But always me.

She had no hang ups that I could see. Oral was on the table (still is). Multiple O's for her, anal once in a blue moon (which she can O from). We discovered that she can squirt. Never had before me. We introduced sex toys over time, and still use them occasionally. She had never used one before. All kinds of positions. You get the point.

There is no issue with our actual sex. We are on the same page and we please each other immensely. It is great sex. It can be dirty sex. Not much is off limits.

But she has no desire for it. No desire for me. Won't/can't talk about it. Can't be physically flirty, or allow me to be physically flirty. I can't grab her in the middle of the afternoon in the kitchen and kiss her passionately and squeeze her butt, because it's sexual and it's like she gets scared.

She doesn't WANT to have sex, but does because she knows it's necessary. But once we get into it, you'd never think she's asexual and doesn't think about sex or NEED sex. Often, she will tell me she needs me inside her, or "do this, do that", whatever. When we have sex, she needs that O, then another one, and another one. On occasion, as we men hate to admit, I just can't perform 100% and I am more than happy to have enjoyed the experience without my own orgasm. She hates this, and tries to get me to finish with oral or a HJ. She feels incomplete if I don't finish.

I am having an extremely difficult time dealing with this. She's the most sexual asexual person on the planet, and I just... don't... get it...

I will never know what it's like to feel a woman physically desire me - outside of sex. During sex, she wants me, needs me, can't get enough of me. Beforehand - nothing.

What it makes me feel like is that I could be anybody. This is not the case, obviously - I AM important to her, she DOES love me, I DO make her happy. But physically, I don't matter. I could be the ugliest guy on the planet, and she'd still feel the same.

That is so difficult to come to terms with, as a man. That my physical characteristics don't matter. That what I look like doesn't matter. What I smell like doesn't matter. That I have a penis doesn't matter. None of that matters. What defines me as a man, doesn't matter.

I love her, and she loves me. I am not leaving her. I will deal with this one day at a time.

But it hurts. It's not her fault, but it hurts.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Alex,

Your pain is palpable in your post  I'm sorry for what you are going through.

My ex-husband was also asexual. I learned this from our counselor after our 3rd round of marriage counseling. I know exactly how you feel, to not be desired, to not be playful and affectionate, to miss those experiences leading up to sex and then the "afterglow", as you pointed out.

It is a sad and lonely place to be.

It sounds like sex is satisfying for both of you when you have it, which is a lot more than many people get who are in relationships with asexual people.

Ultimately I divorced my husband. Like you, I wanted to feel all of those things. I think every sexual person wants to feel those things, its human nature.

I am not advocating divorce. But I did find a partner who desires me in all ways, and I am happier than I've ever been in my life.

I wish you the very best sorting this out...


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

alexm said:


> I am having an extremely difficult time dealing with this. She's the most sexual asexual person on the planet, and I just... don't... get it...


But given all info here I'm having hard time believing that she is asexual. I think that there is an asexual internet forum where you could also post your story to see what they think. Send a thief to catch a thief thing.

Perhaps I can relate how she feels sexually with a small example. I'm not a social person. Introverted you might say. Not looking forward to social events. But, more often than not, I have fun there and enjoy myself but still, these experiences doesn't change the basic fact that I'm still not looking forward to them.

People live with contradictions within themselves. No logic is required.

But I have to ask, what is she getting from sex? That would be my first question for her. And I'm curious to know how do you initiate sex when everything sexual is forbidden.


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## Faeleaf (Jul 22, 2014)

This is a tough thing to go through. 

I feel like I understand your wife a little...though I have a pretty high sex drive, I've gone through periods of high stress and physical problems that reduced that drive down near zero for awhile. This would confuse my husband...he would say, "You enjoy sex while we're doing it...so why don't you crave it when we're NOT doing it?" I tried to explain that enjoying sex and a sex drive are not the same thing...not at all. You can have one without having the other. 

As an example, I've sometimes noticed that getting really cold and then stepping into a hot shower, especially as the hot water is hitting the top of my head, is a pleasure so intense it is almost orgasmic. It's incredible. But I have zero drive to do it. I don't think about it during the day, I don't remember it afterward, and if someone was trying to get me to do it while I was in the middle of cooking dinner, I'd be irritated. Backrubs / massages can be the same kind of thing...intensely pleasurable in the moment, but afterward I can barely remember why I liked it, and I am not drawn back to the experience at all. 

Maybe this will help your understanding? I know it doesn't actually lessen your pain or frustration. Hang in there.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Dude, what the hell? Why are you married to MY wife?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

My thoughts are that your wife is not asexual, though I'm certainly no expert on the subject. However, I belong to another forum with sub groups. One group is 'living in a sexless marriage' another is 'I am asexual'. The asexual people speak as though they not only have no desire for sex, but actually do not enjoy it and avoid it at all costs.

In other words, sex is not only not enjoyable, but repulsive.

Your wife enjoys sex when she has it.

I don't know what to tell you to feel better, except it could be a lot worse. ie, the people who live in totally sexless marriages and who are repulsed by the thought of sex with their spouses.

That you may have to live with who you married and accept that she does enjoy sex and orgasms when she does.

A lot of men would wish for that.


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

With all due respect and compassion, OP, I think you are way overanalyzing. Things sound so good that you cannot believe they are true and you come up with reasons why they are not. LOL! I know how it works 

People are not total slaves to their emotions and instincts. Upbringning plays a huge role in how we behave in life. She may be coming from a family where public displays of affection were doomed unacceptable. Or there could have been a different reason for her to feel uncomfortable displaying affection outside of the bedroom. 

I think you need to try and learn to appreciate what you have. If you demand more (not from her, but in general in life), you will end up with absolutely nothing. 

Example: I cannot talk during sex. It's not that I don't feel anything or don't find my partner attractive - I just don't want to chat! During sex my brain turns into sand - it's a million images, sensations, emotions... and not a single sentence I can formulate. If I start trying to say something, I take away from feeling it to thinking about it and putting it in words - I don't multitask well during sex. LOL. 

She is just wired a bit differently when it comes to non-bedroom display of affection. And I believe if you leave her sexless for a longer period of time, she will ask for it. She is not asexual. She was somehow led to believe so. 

Just my 2 cents.

PS. Oh, and she wants YOU. Women are wired differently in this regard. It takes some emotional involvement (even for a one night stand) to want a man. And if she loves you (you can tell by things other than sex), then it's you that she wants, and no one else.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Personally, I couldn't handle this, I don't think. But look for forums that help with (as someone else said in another thread) "mixed orientation marriages". 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Alex please do honor what your wife is saying. It doesn't matter if you can't really understand it...what matters is that you KNOW her the way she really is. I know it makes you sad and you don't want your wife to be asexual...but she is. Doesn't this explain a lot of things really?

On your thread up in the ladies lounge someone already mentioned to you that she sounds asexual. The poster who said that felt that way herself. Sexual people frequently think that asexual and gray sexual people are lying, hiding something, or that they just don't want to "work on their issues". Yet they typically don't feel they have issues. Everyone else keeps saying they do, but they don't. 

I know you don't want to believe her because it means you will have to give up the hope that she will feel strong sexual attraction for you and that hurts. I'm sorry for that...it does suck. 

Please read the website AVEN in and out, up and down and educate yourself on her reality without trying to deny it. From there maybe there are ways you can work on feeling sexually desirable using some innovative thinking.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Also, asexuality is not an orientation.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

There are hundreds of reasons wives give as to why they don't want sex with their husbands. They all have one thing in common: They are impossible to change or refute.

Examples: 
I am too old for sex.
I am too fat.
I have too much cellulite.
I got raped or was abused.
My mother was a people pleaser.
My boyfriend in college cheated on me.
My father was too strict.
My parents were alchoholics.
The mailman saw me changing as a child.
I'm depressed.
My vagina hurts.
I am perimenopausal.
I am menopuasal.
I have a hormone imbalance.
I have a disease.

Her self diagnosis is IN RESPONSE to you trying to force her to be something she is not... A female with the sexual urges of a male. You have painted her as defective or broken. She searched for understanding. She found an article on the internet. She now labeled herself.

Accept your wife's sexuality for what it is... Nurture it. Understand it. What you have is a typical, normal wife.


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

there actually is a class of person that IS asexual. There was even an "asexual awareness" day a few months ago. Google it, there might be a group for her to join. 

From what I read (and it is a little hard for me to consider the case of asexuality personally) asexuals DO still want relationships...just not loving physical ones. 

So do some scouring on the internet to find out the traits of a true asexual and see if she fits the pattern. If she does...then you are truly NOT screwed (as in never gonna get laid with her again). So its either divorce of a FBuddy for you my friend. 

Do be open and honest with her, but no sex for the rest of a marriage would go over like a turd in the punch bowl for me!


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

Hicks said:


> Her self diagnosis is IN RESPONSE to you trying to force her to be something she is not... A female with the sexual urges of a male. You have painted her as defective or broken. She searched for understanding. She found an article on the internet. She now labeled herself.
> 
> Accept your wife's sexuality for what it is... Nurture it. Understand it. What you have is a typical, normal wife.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

murphy5 said:


> there actually is a class of person that IS asexual. There was even an "asexual awareness" day a few months ago. Google it, there might be a group for her to join.
> 
> From what I read (and it is a little hard for me to consider the case of asexuality personally) asexuals DO still want relationships...just not loving physical ones.
> 
> ...


Keep in mind he IS getting sex, and it sounds like pretty good sex. My concern would be how long the charade will last. And it just gets harder and harder to extricate yourself as time goes on. But again, perhaps it's just me...

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

Hicks said:


> Examples:
> I am too old for sex.
> I am too fat.
> I have too much cellulite.
> ...


And:
Bipolar
Bi curious
Became lesbian overnight
not attracted to you physically
harboring some grudge from 2011
playing mind games
trying to control you with sex
depression
side effects of drugs or over the counter stuff
feeling overwhelmed with work/kids/housework/whatever
afraid the kids will hear
afraid the dog will hear
all sorts of body image issues
selfish
not understanding you really need sex
shtooping the mailman, and no energy left for you

and on and on


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

PBear said:


> Keep in mind he IS getting sex, and it sounds like pretty good sex.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I missed that part, I thought he said she came out as an asexual! lol


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

People who are asexual have sex and can enjoy sex. What they don't have is sexual attraction for others. They do typically have normal physical sexual functioning.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> People who are asexual have sex and can enjoy sex. What they don't have is sexual attraction for others. They do typically have normal physical sexual functioning.


yuck who the hell wants a wife like that?

lets see I'll let you meet all my many needs and you can desire me but me I don't really desire you or anybody for that matter. so mmmm.take it or leave it.

sounds pretty crappy to me and I think I would rather leave it.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Ummm...ok? What does it have to do with you at all Chilly? Why be snarky at me about it?


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> Ummm...ok? What does it have to do with you at all Chilly? Why be snarky at me about it?


is snarky even a word?

It was in responce to your well thats just how she is whats the big problem with that just accept her for her and everything will be ok.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

just googled snarky and it is indeed a word.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

No where did I say that everything will be ok Mr. Snarky Pants. Feel free to misrepresent me all you want but it just shows your ignorance of the topic. If you were interested you could learn a lot about sexuality by learning about asexuality. But seems you'd rather just be bitter.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

TheStranger said:


> But given all info here I'm having hard time believing that she is asexual. I think that there is an asexual internet forum where you could also post your story to see what they think. Send a thief to catch a thief thing..


*Well, I can definitely see where you're coming from. I'm not CONVINCED, myself, but this is how she feels and you can't argue with that. Short of going through the ubiquitous "checklist", the bottom line is that she doesn't, and never has, had sexual/physical attraction to anyone, ever. Sex has (almost) always been enjoyable for her, once she's involved in actually doing it. Especially with me, apparently. It's purely physical for her. There's no desire there to do it, no looking forward to it, thinking about having it, etc. But when it happens, it's good.*



TheStranger said:


> Perhaps I can relate how she feels sexually with a small example. I'm not a social person. Introverted you might say. Not looking forward to social events. But, more often than not, I have fun there and enjoy myself but still, these experiences doesn't change the basic fact that I'm still not looking forward to them.
> 
> People live with contradictions within themselves. No logic is required.
> 
> But I have to ask, what is she getting from sex? That would be my first question for her. And I'm curious to know how do you initiate sex when everything sexual is forbidden.


*See above to answer the first part. It's physical. Orgasms, good feelings, etc. But in the moment only. No pre- or post- feelings one way or the other. No looking forward to it, or waiting for the next time, etc.

Sex is initiated how you would imagine it would in a relationship like this. Something has to be said, more often than not. Or once in a blue moon, it will occur to her that it's been a while, and she'll either outright say "let's have sex, it's been a while" (oooo, sexy) or be naked in bed before I crawl in. If I don't notice she's naked, or don't otherwise make a move of my own, it won't be addressed.

Either way, it's for my benefit only, at that moment. It's a conscious decision on her part that we should have sex. And I use the word "should" literally. It's not a feeling she gets, a desire, a need. It's simply one more thing she has to remember from time to time.*


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

jorgegene said:


> My thoughts are that your wife is not asexual, though I'm certainly no expert on the subject. However, I belong to another forum with sub groups. One group is 'living in a sexless marriage' another is 'I am asexual'. The asexual people speak as though they not only have no desire for sex, but actually do not enjoy it and avoid it at all costs.
> 
> In other words, sex is not only not enjoyable, but repulsive.
> 
> Your wife enjoys sex when she has it.


*
Yep, I have a hard time understanding that as well, but apparently this is a "thing". Not all asexuals are the same, and they seem to have varying degrees of acceptance towards sex.

As you say, some are most definitely put off by it entirely. It, for lack of a better term, grosses them out. Some are capable and willing to have a sex life, and an enjoyable one at that. They are not grossed out by the subject, the act, the body parts, etc. But they don't THINK about sex, don't fantasize, don't need it, have no desire for it. They could live their entire lives without it and not blink an eye. My wife seems to identify with this aspect of asexuality.

From my limited POV on the subject, I am starting to see a trend with asexuality. I like women, but have no desire, romantic or physical, to be with a man. I am certainly not homophobic, however I am attracted to women. Some asexuals appear to identify with either the hetero or homosexual lifestyle, but have no desire to be with one or the other physically. Some asexuals, imo the ones who are generally grossed out by sex in general, seem to view either sex the way any one of us view physical contact with the same sex. It ain't happening, homophobic or not.

Some, like my wife, are definitely heterosexual, yet the physical desire to be sexual is non-existent. She has, in the past, questioned her sexuality for just this reason. She has determined that she is not at all attracted to women, and she most definitely IS attracted to men. Just not physically. She doesn't have a type. Doesn't matter what they look like, how tall they are, if they're fat, skinny, less than attractive, you name it. The sole thing she desires from a man is the emotional aspect.*



jorgegene said:


> I don't know what to tell you to feel better, except it could be a lot worse. ie, the people who live in totally sexless marriages and who are repulsed by the thought of sex with their spouses.
> 
> That you may have to live with who you married and accept that she does enjoy sex and orgasms when she does.
> 
> A lot of men would wish for that.


*I do count myself lucky, in that regard, I truly do.

It's not the lack of sex that is an issue, and it's definitely not the quality. It's the emotional side of it that I don't have. And that's difficult for a man to come out and say. We men thrive on the desire from our partners, which is how we gain the emotional part of the relationship. With women, it's generally the opposite - emotional comes first, then the desire to be physical. One allows the other to blossom.

Being with an asexual, that side is completely absent. It doesn't matter how much I take care of her emotional needs, or how romantic and thoughtful I am. A does not lead to B. Nothing will generate that desire in her, which in turn fulfills MY emotional needs.*


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

rubymoon said:


> With all due respect and compassion, OP, I think you are way overanalyzing. Things sound so good that you cannot believe they are true and you come up with reasons why they are not. LOL! I know how it works
> 
> People are not total slaves to their emotions and instincts. Upbringning plays a huge role in how we behave in life. She may be coming from a family where public displays of affection were doomed unacceptable. Or there could have been a different reason for her to feel uncomfortable displaying affection outside of the bedroom.
> 
> ...


I don't think I'm overanalyzing, simply because it's not me who came out with this label for her - it was her own self.

Yes, you are correct, she did grow up in a household devoid of PDA and communication, and general affection. Not an unloving household, just a closed-off one.

But the bottom line is, upbringing and experiences aside, she has never thought about sex, ever. Never thought about someone (or herself) sexually. Never had the urge or the need to have sex, or do something sexual. This is the way she's always felt, as long as she can remember.

I am not discounting what you're saying - part of me wants to believe it's simply upbringing, issues, whatever. But when someone tells you they have literally never felt a sexual urge in their life, there's probably more to it than hangups.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

If you have netflix there's an excellent documentary on it about asexuality. It might be helpful for you to watch it with your wife. If you want to pm me I have some other suggestions as well.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Hicks said:


> Her self diagnosis is IN RESPONSE to you trying to force her to be something she is not... A female with the sexual urges of a male. You have painted her as defective or broken. She searched for understanding. She found an article on the internet. She now labeled herself.
> 
> Accept your wife's sexuality for what it is... Nurture it. Understand it. What you have is a typical, normal wife.


I respectfully disagree, and I think she would, too. Honestly, I am being supportive in this, I truly am.

I have never forced her to be someone she is not - ever, especially in regards to her sexuality.

She has struggled with this her whole life - this is not new to her in terms of OUR relationship. This has been an issue in the past for her, to the point that she thought something was wrong with her, or that she thought she was gay.

She has always felt different, especially around her female friends, for as long as she can remember. When any of them would discuss sex, or talk about how hot some guy was, or anything else related to sex, sexuality and attraction, she never "felt" it. She never understood why her girlfriends had posters of Chippendale models on their wall, or why they turned their heads when a hot guy walked by, or what they were talking about when one of them landed a "hottie".

I appreciate, but also slightly resent that this can somehow be blamed on me, and therefore she's like this because of something I said or did, or perhaps that I have high expectations of her.

I have openly and honestly discussed our sexuality and our sex lives with her, just as most normal partners do. I have always been taught (and also read quite a bit here) that communication is key, so I communicate. I don't demand, or expect. I speak from the heart (and occasionally from the penis) about what is important to me in a relationship (and it's not always related to sex), just as I expect her to do the same in return.

I can't see how that is a problem, and it's somehow made her turn into this. In other words, I am being blamed for communicating with my wife.

As I said, I am not the first partner she's had, nor am I the first who she has had issues with regards to sex with. The others either DID leave, or they couldn't communicate properly, or gave her ultimatums.

The difference is that she has, fortunately, or unfortunately, discovered the term "asexual" and has identified as such. For the record, she is not 100% convinced, herself, but this is the closest she has been in her life to being able to identify what's going on in her brain. I applaud her, and I stand by her, and I support her. She wants to be the wife she feels I deserve, and it's not easy for her to feel that she can't. I am on her side, through better or worse.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> People who are asexual have sex and can enjoy sex. What they don't have is sexual attraction for others. They do typically have normal physical sexual functioning.


Thank you. Consider Faithful's (any my) posts as education.

Sexual attraction and desire does not mean sex can not be enjoyable. While most of us intertwine the two, that's not always the case.

Some asexuals have an aversion to sex, and/or do not or can not enjoy it. Some asexuals have no desire (which is different from an aversion), but once in the act, are fully sexual.

I guess the nutshell version of it is that the brain and the body are not in sync, in terms of sex. One has little, or nothing, to do with the other.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

She is likely gray sexual. It means nearly asexual but they have the occasional sexual attraction or thoughts about sex. From there, very LD is just a step away although most LD do experience sexual attraction they just don't feel compelled to act on it.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> She is likely gray sexual. It means nearly asexual but they have the occasional sexual attraction or thoughts about sex. From there, very LD is just a step away although most LD do experience sexual attraction they just don't feel compelled to act on it.


That was one of my first thoughts, too, but she doesn't seem to think that identifies her.

She does not have sexual attraction or thoughts, and never has.

She is experienced sexually. That does not mean that she desired it, craved it, needed it. It's always been something she knows is important, and necessary, and it's "what you do". Fortunately, she enjoys it - the physical act, that is.

What the issue really is, is that it provides nothing FOR her, emotionally, spiritually, you name it.

To us sexual people, it's not just about the physical release (though it can be). What WE derive from sex and everything that goes with it (ie emotional positives, feelings of being needed/wanted/desired, as well as all the chemical boons it provides) she does not get or need. They are not necessary for her to be happy emotionally.

A huge part of sex is the before and after. It is exciting to build up to it, to flirt, touch, think about what we're going to do later, tell each other what we're going to do, etc. It's especially exciting and beneficial when it's with a person we love. It is necessary for most of us to feel these feelings, and to have them returned to us, as it makes us feel whole. Being desired is incredibly important, and a lot of people take that for granted sometimes, I think. We want to know we're being thought of, that we're desirable, that we're needed. And we men tend to require this physical need from our partners, just as women tend to require that their men feed them emotionally.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I don't think the need to feel sexually desireable is a male or female thing...I would not be able to have sex at all without that.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

happy as a clam said:


> Alex,
> 
> Your pain is palpable in your post  I'm sorry for what you are going through.
> 
> ...


Thank you 

The thought of divorce just kills me. I can't imagine loving anybody else the way, or as much as, I love my wife, truly.

I fully realize that I could find a person out there who I COULD love, and who would provide me with my needs as well. But I wouldn't love them as much as I love my wife. Go ahead and roll your eyes. 

I knew about halfway through my first marriage that my ex wife was not the love of my life. By that time, though, I had beta'd out to the max, and she had me tied down, tied up, and tied around her finger. She made me feel that she was the only person who would tolerate me and love me, and I never even entertained the thought of leaving. Poor, dumb, me. Women can be abusive, too.

With my current wife, there's just something there. To know us 5 years ago, nobody would think "now there's a great match!" But it's there, whatever "it" is. It's unexplainable. We don't feel that we need each other to be complete, but we just complete each other, if that makes sense. Love is often inexplicable that way.

Divorce is something I think she will bring up, unfortunately. I know that she loves me deeply, but with that comes the guilt that she will (or already is) feeling about not being able to fulfill MY needs. I fear for this day, should it arrive. The old "if you love them, let them go" thing. Ugh.

I think I am more willing to make this work and/or live with it than she may be. For me, there will be that aspect missing - and I am willing to live with that. For her, I don't know if she will be willing, or capable, to live with the guilt.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> I don't think the need to feel sexually desireable is a male or female thing...I would not be able to have sex at all without that.


No, it's a human thing!

It's an odd thing, this situation. IN the act, I am being desired, and I feel that. At that moment, I am NOT just anybody, and she makes me feel that she needs me.

Outside of sex, notsomuch. That is what is lacking. It's not the sex, because that's there. It's not the quality of the sex, because it's great. It's not the frequency of sex (though I wish it were more...).

What it is, is that I don't feel desired, wanted, needed, physically outside of when it's happening. Not even right before.


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

alexm said:


> But the bottom line is, upbringing and experiences aside, .


How can you put all those things aside when you are trying to understand a person? Not a refrigirator, which you can take apart, but a human being? Aside from my upbringing and experience, I am just a template for a woman, not a real person. 



alexm said:


> she has never thought about sex, ever. Never thought about someone (or herself) sexually. Never had the urge or the need to have sex, or do something sexual. This is the way she's always felt, as long as she can remember.


How can she never think about sex if she initiates it sometimes? Just doesn't add up. 



alexm said:


> I am not discounting what you're saying - part of me wants to believe it's simply upbringing, issues, whatever. But when someone tells you they have literally never felt a sexual urge in their life, there's probably more to it than hangups.


And that's where you are overanalyzing. If sex is good and regular, then there is no problem. But you are trying to create one from her thoughts! So the problem is not with what she does, and how often she does that, but in what she THINKS or doesn't think about! Come on... I think you are trespassing here...  

I believe (shoot me if you will) that a number of modern "disorders" are not exactly made up, but rather very rare to come across, yet too popular. For example: ADD - I am sure there are kids with this problem, but nowadays as soon as a child has problems focusing, he/she is diagnosed with ADD. It's not ADD! It's normal child behavior to want to play instead of reading and doing math! So some very rare and severe cases aside, it's a made-up, popular diagnosis. Same goes for "asexuality" - they can have sex, they have sex, they enjoy sex, BUT... There is no "but" other than "but someone came up with a cool theory and made it popular".
Your wife is a normal, real woman. If she was thinking sex as much as you want her to, then she'd be having it with your milkman, mailman, plumber, and 15 neighbors. :lol:


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Wow...maybe read up a little before you try to disregard other people's experiences? (Millions of people by the way...not just a handful of wives who don't want to figure out their "issues"). Or just go ahead and think what you want even though it isn't your experience at all...you seem to believe you know what complete stranger's "issues" are even though you don't feel like they do. Sheesh.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I'll just go ahead and make my own evaluation of the quality of your opinions and put you on ignore, too...only 16 posts and already clearly showing an inability to grasp abstract (to you) concepts...must be a record.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Alex I've known several asexual and gray sexual people...half of them were men. They all have a lot of things in common, claim they feel the same way, and none of these people knew each other. I've know 3 of them for decades and they're the same now as when I met them (when we were all much younger.) The men of course have always been called gay because they aren't sexual people. Which makes no sense because on average gay men are the most sexual of all of us. Knowing these people (and in some cases knowing their spouses too) is why I have experience with this topic. Again the documentary on asexuality on Netflix is very good and may help you a lot with acceptance and understanding...though I have to say that you are holding up very well considering. It would be different if you knew this going in.


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Wow...maybe read up a little before you try to disregard other people's experiences? (Millions of people by the way...not just a handful of wives who don't want to figure out their "issues"). Or just go ahead and think what you want even though it isn't your experience at all...you seem to believe you know what complete stranger's "issues" are even though you don't feel like they do. Sheesh.


You do realize that everything you read is written by people, right? And some of those people are not smart. And some of them need to provide or prove some theory to justify getting grants of staying on a payroll, or getting published... 

I am not disregarding OP's issue. I am trying to tell the guy that what he has is actually better than he may think. He has a good wife, they are in love, sex is good... Yeah, let's tell him he has a huge problem and needs to reevaluate his marriage


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

rubymoon said:


> I am not disregarding OP's issue. I am trying to tell the guy that what he has is actually better than he may think. He has a good wife, they are in love, sex is good... Yeah, let's tell him he has a huge problem and needs to reevaluate his marriage


I get where you are coming from, I really do. But the delivery does come across as rather callous.

I know what I have on my hands here, and I am also vastly aware that it "could be worse". However it is not good, and this is a relatively new issue, both to me and apparently to many others. But it is a real issue, and a real thing.

My original post was to do two things - vent and also see if anybody here at TAM has a similar situation going on. Misery loves company. I do not know quite how to deal, and the thought of losing her terrifies me, as well as the thought of staying with her and losing my sexual identity. Rock, meet hard place.

I am frustrated again tonight. I made a huge effort to spend some quality time with her - without the expectation of sex. I restrained myself from feeling those thoughts, which inevitably start to stir when two people do things that are intimate or make each other feel close to one another.

She came home to a really nice bouquet of flowers, just because. We spent some quality time together just talking about our days, holding hands, etc. I did not allow my thoughts to wander, and I focused on her.

I also made the effort to go to bed at the same time as her, so we could do some cuddling and just hold each other. Right before that I offered to give her a good massage, and off came her shirt. She never says not to a massage! This is starting to make it difficult to stay focused...!

After I finished rubbing her, she told me it was my turn and asked what I wanted rubbed down. As I play a lot of sports, my calves and thighs are almost constantly sore, and a good leg massage is always very much appreciated. So she takes my pants off. I stay focused, even though this is getting more difficult.

I maintained control (if you know what I mean) and thoroughly enjoyed the rub down, which included accidental brushing of my bits and pieces. I stayed focused.

Afterwards, we spooned, her with her shirt still off, me with nothing on. I gently rubbed her entire body (minus the erogenous zones!), and I flat out told her I should stop as it's past the point where I can maintain control any more.

Her response? "I can imagine".

Now reading that, it may sound like an invitation, but it wasn't. It was a flat out statement from somebody who isn't feeling what I was beginning to feel, and had been trying to hard NOT to feel. It was a statement of obliviousness. She wanted to go to bed, and she made it clear she was trying to, but thoroughly enjoying the spooning and attention. Oblivious to anything sex related, with no effort whatsoever.

I got up, kissed her, she said she loved me and thanked me very nicely for the massage.

Obliviousness is the best word to describe people who don't feel sexual thoughts.

And I wasn't trying. Like I said, I was trying NOT to feel excited. I did it for her, to show her that we can be intimate without the expectation of anything happening - and I can, though I started to fall apart at the end. There was only so long I could take of naked massage followed by naked cuddling before I had to get up and get my mind off it.

I enjoyed it very much, and I will likely get better at it.

But she needs to get better at understanding that it's not easy for me to repress these thoughts.

A day like today, I guarantee two people of average sexual desire would be having hot monkey sex right now. Flowers, nice chat, dinner, time by ourselves at our respective sports, come home to each other at the same time, more nice chatting and hand holding on the couch, then naked massage and naked cuddling. And even without any expectation from me, it is difficult. What I get is the most oblivious comment in return for a remark I made about how I basically can't hold it in anymore.

THAT'S what hurts. Not that nothing happened. It's not even the no desire after our really nice, intimate day together. It's the not recognizing my own desires and basically throwing them out the window, oblivious to how I feel.

I am having a hard time thinking I CAN stay, and I know I will feel up and down about this for a long time.


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

i'm having trouble following this whole spooning thing. you can not pull down her panties and spoon a little deeper? unless she tells you clearly to stop, why just kiss her and go away???

and how can you give her a good massage with her panties on anyway? You need to rub those buns with some massage oil. maybe it is just and excuse you use to get her panties off, but it would probably work.

If she really does not want it she will tell you. Sometimes a person is not that turned on until AFTER the sex begins. but they will let you get started. Then they get into it totally.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

murphy5 said:


> i'm having trouble following this whole spooning thing. you can not pull down her panties and spoon a little deeper? unless she tells you clearly to stop, why just kiss her and go away???
> 
> and how can you give her a good massage with her panties on anyway? You need to rub those buns with some massage oil. maybe it is just and excuse you use to get her panties off, but it would probably work.
> 
> If she really does not want it she will tell you. Sometimes a person is not that turned on until AFTER the sex begins. but they will let you get started. Then they get into it totally.


Yes, this is exactly how it has always been. I probably could have gone that route and been successful. But the point is that I didn't want to. Well, I WANTED to, but after all our discussion about asexuality, etc... I am trying to show her that she can have her needs met (ie. cuddling, emotional closeness) without it turning into sex. I am trying to be supportive of her and show her that there isn't always that pressure there, every time we get physically close.

In any case, it was the comment she made, not the fact that nothing happened.

It's a different dynamic now, which is unfortunate. Even a week ago, we would have ended up having sex. The issue is, is that even though she enjoys the actual act, physically, for her the entire prelude to sex would have been thrown out the window. Because she (and most asexuals who do have sex) do not combine the emotional and the physical, one thing has nothing to do with the other. It is an aspect I am desperately trying to understand, but likely never will.

It would be like if every time my wife and I had sex, initiated by her, it turned into a game of darts in our basement immediately after. While I'm sure I could get into a rousing game of darts, it has nothing to do with sex and I would begin to expect that every time we are physical, I will have to play darts immediately afterwards.

This is my best guess as to what's going on in her, and other asexuals minds. They do not equate physical touch, emotional closeness, kissing, etc with sex. None of those things arouse them, just like having sex does not make me excited to play a game of darts.

Now that the dynamic has changed, and she has identified with asexuality, it now creates this underlying feeling of guilt in which for now and evermore, every time I provide her with her needs - cuddling, massage, etc. - I will feel guilt turning it into something sexual. Thus, it turns it into a tit-for-tat thing.

In the past, before this word "asexual" came into our lives, I thought nothing of it. I knew that by me paying attention to her in that way would not arouse her sexually, but I did know that 9 times out of 10 if I went that route, we would end up having sex. Now that she's officially declared that nothing arouses her sexually (except for sex itself), I will now always feel as though every time I provide her with her needs and I turn it into sex, that everything I did prior to that will have been thrown out the window in her eyes. If I knew that every time she initiated sex with me it was so she could play darts afterwards, the sex would eventually be meaningless. It's a means to an end. And I don't want her to feel that every time I cuddle, spoon, massage her that it's merely a means to an end - my end.

With most "normal" couples, doing the things we did last night would naturally turn into sex, as both partners would be aroused and feeling close to each other. And it's frustrating, even though that's what my aim was in the first place - no sex. My attention was aimed at her, and her only. But the hard thing to swallow is that even though I purposefully decided that this was 100% about her and her needs, that my natural emotions and desires still came out and it only emphasized the seriousness of the disconnect, by her not feeling any of that in the slightest.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

No offence, but the frustrations you have are just going to fester. Find yourself a good IC, if you like. But to me, the odds you'll be able to convince yourself everything is peachy keen are very low, long term. 

C


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

This self labeling is a balloon.
You can either blow it up, or you can leave it sitting there on the table. Blow it up it becomes big. Leave it alone it stays small. Your wife is typical of many wives. Not all wives, but many. Sex just is not up there on their list of things that is important in life, but yet they enjoy it. This is who she is. Getting inside her head regarding sexual desire is marriage harming. If she is doing it with you, she loves you and she enjoys it. Not all women act overtly sexual.


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

So let's set the asexual thing aside for a minute. 

OP, you are afraid. You are afraid to ask for what you want in life. Your wife gives you duty sex. 2-4 times a month is not "active". She chastises you like your a little boy when you display your sexuality. Now you're on here crying and looking for sympathy. 

This is your bed. 100%. You let her dictate the terms of meeting your needs and your upset about it? You feel powerless in the face her self described "asexuality"?!?

I get sexuality spectrum. I get the Kinsey scale. I even believe in asexuallity. But this is not an issue about that. This is your wife refusing to meet your needs. 

Sit her down. Have a frank discussion. Tell her "this is how I express my sexuality". "How do we reach a workable compromise?" Then hold her accountable. She may dig in, she may not be capable. But as far as I've seen you've been passive, and have talked about it with her. Then you have a choice, stay and accept it, or move on. 

Personally I think you have a penchant for broken women, and instead of being a good ender you hold on "because it's the right thing to do". Why do you think you deserve mediocrity?

I don't get people who say "she's a good wife, but she doesn't have sex with me" or "she's the love of my life but she doesn't meet my needs".


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

OP, sorry if I came out callous. My intention was to tell you that your problem is not as bad as you think. By analyzing it too much, it becomes bigger in your head. I can think of a minor thing for 3 days, and by the end of it, the thing is no longer minor - it's huge! Stop trying to fix it and try to get distracted - in a week you will realize how much smaller the issue is than you are thinking now. 

Also, she is not the type to display affection and she may not be the type to initiate sex. Not that she doesn't want it, but it could have been firmly engraved in her head that she must never express her sexual desire too openly, or she will look like a sl*t. Who knows what ideas were engraved in her brain when she was growing up? And if you show her the way, she may get there over time, but it will take a long time and a lot of patience from you. 

Another idea for you: I don't know how old you are, but you sound rather young (under 30-35). You need to realize that sexual drive changes over time. She may be not there yet. A lot of women reach sexual peak when they hit 30+ mark. Before that, I suppose I was asexual, too - I liked sex, enjoyed it, it was next to teeth cleaning on my priority list. Give her some time to bloom. Moreover, your drive will eventually go down. And as it does, other things will become way more important for you. It sounds like you have all those things with you wife - love, compassion, mutual care and understanding... 

I really don't recommend pondering this issue. It is so easy to break something good to only get stuck with a chain of worthless, though sexual encounters.

Not intended to be callous or dismissing your issue. On the contrary - people are quick to tell you to leave your wife, to move on, to break something precious... It won't be them losing the love of their life. It will be you. But we all are prone to peer pressure. So, I am trying to tell you to keep what you have - it does in fact sound really good and you are a lucky man.


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

alexm said:


> With most "normal" couples, doing the things we did last night would naturally turn into sex, as both partners would be aroused and feeling close to each other.


Really not true! 

Flowers have nothing to do with sex. Absolutely nothing. It's very nice to get flowers every now and then, but sex wouldn't even cross my mind at the moment my husband gives me flowers. I do not like candles - to me it's sooooo cheesy! And I am not saying it is. I am saying that I am a normal person with a normal amount of oddities just like everyone else. Massage would put me to sleep, especially on a Tuesday night after a day at the office. 

Now, if my husband grabs me in the kitchen when I am doing dishes, that’s an entirely different story! 

We all are different. Maybe, your problem is that you have different mental ideas of what's sexual. That's a different challenge. Not an issue, just a challenge.


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

Lila said:


> OP cannot push the asexuality thing aside because it's at the center of the issues he has with his wife. Per OP's own words, the amount and the quality of the sex is not the issue. The issue is that she lacks DESIRE for it. She won't initiate it on her own but is willing to participate in it, and apparently enthusiastically, for his benefit.
> 
> How is he supposed to reach a "workable compromise" on her desire? This isn't about sex; he can't really tell her she needs to "want" to have sex x number of days a week.
> 
> FWIW, Alex I can only imagine the hurt you are feeling right now. Don't give up.



Sure he can. She already has quality sex with him. He says the act itself is fulfilling. So he just needs to state he needs more (if that is his need). 

As far as his wife not being sexual? Well, I went down this road with my wife. She was battling her own demons including early menopause and had withdrawn. Her exact words were "I just don't feel anything"

My words to her "this isn't about you. This is my need. I need you to demonstrate physical attraction. I like light touches, a caress every now and then. Kissing. If you can't do it, that's fine, let me know and I'll find someone who can. "

Magically she now gives me the affection I need. Is it forced? Who cares. She has gotten better with it with positive reinforcement and I think she realizes sometimes we do things for our spouse because they need it, not because it's your need. 

Her feelings about it are hers. If she can't give this to her husband when he's meeting all of her needs, well then she needs to be honest with him. She's being selfish. He's being codependent. 

Personally I would divorce her in a heartbeat if she refused to make an effort. Effort I can accept, denial no. Everyone is replaceable.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Lila said:


> OP cannot push the asexuality thing aside because it's at the center of the issues he has with his wife. Per OP's own words, the amount and the quality of the sex is not the issue. The issue is that she lacks DESIRE for it. She won't initiate it on her own but is willing to participate in it, and apparently enthusiastically, for his benefit.
> 
> How is he supposed to reach a "workable compromise" on her desire? This isn't about sex; he can't really tell her she needs to "want" to have sex x number of days a week.
> 
> FWIW, Alex I can only imagine the hurt you are feeling right now. Don't give up.


Thank you. Just... thank you.

You said it better than I apparently could (and if FAR less words... sigh).

It is not about SEX. I have sex, we have sex, the sex is at worst, good, and at best, pretty damn awesome.

The issue is not feeling desired, and the fact that it is apparently not fixable.

My ex wife felt no desire, sexually, for me because she wasn't attracted to me physically. I met all of her emotional needs (and then some), which was exactly what she was looking for when we met. She had had her fill of sexual relationships, being used, and yes, there was also abuse. We had a sex life, but it wasn't very good. Over many years, what I provided for her was no longer enough, and she sought the physical aspect elsewhere.

My current wife feels no desire for me sexually, nor has she ever felt it for anyone else, ever. This is not a case of "if I do A, B or C, I will suddenly become sexually desirable to her."

This is what I THOUGHT it was until recently. I THOUGHT it could be "fixed" using many of the suggestions above. It could not, and now here I am (here WE are), trying to deal with and understand just what asexuality truly is and how we can work with it.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

U.E. McGill said:


> Sure he can. She already has quality sex with him. He says the act itself is fulfilling. So he just needs to state he needs more (if that is his need).
> 
> As far as his wife not being sexual? Well, I went down this road with my wife. She was battling her own demons including early menopause and had withdrawn. Her exact words were "I just don't feel anything"
> 
> ...


The problem (if it IS a problem) is that I don't, and never have viewed sex with somebody I love to be purely physical and an act of having needs met.

In other words, I am not capable of non-emotional sex with someone I have a deep emotional attachment to.

I was afforded many years of duty sex with my ex wife. This left me hollow and empty. She did not want to be doing that, but did it for me. That did not make it, in my eyes, something fulfilling.

I AM lucky in that my current wife truly does enjoy sex, but it's 100% physical for her. But there is no before or after, no emotional aspect to it, no anticipation, no afterglow.

What I am left with is the feeling that I am being used, and that I am using her, simply for physical reasons. That is not how marital sex should be, imo. It can still be wild and crazy and unbridled and dirty and sweaty, but there is still a desire from both parties, as well as feelings of love and closeness involved.

What I/we have is 2-4 one night stands a month. it just happens that we know each other and live together.

Hell, with actual ONS, even then there's the anticipation and seduction involved. Maybe not so much the afterglow, though...


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Lila said:


> I'm sure that OP could get her to touch him and kiss him, etc... but she'd only be doing it because he asked her to, not because her desire was so great that she felt the need to do it on her own.


I just want to add that I am of the personality (for better or worse) that I really never want anybody to do something for me that they don't want to do themselves. I don't care if it's a case of "well, I'll do it for you!" It takes so much away from the experience (whatever it is, sexual or not) if one person doesn't want to be doing it.

My wife likes to shop, I hate it. I used to tag along, and I would be respectful and not hurry her TOO much. But she got the vibe that I didn't want to be there, so I am no longer allowed to accompany her while shopping. Even if I ASK to come along, just to get out of the house. It is an activity that she knows I do not derive nearly as much pleasure from (if at all) as she does. Therefore, I bring her down if I'm there with here, and her experience suffers greatly.

I'm a giver, not a taker. Make what you will of that, that's just how I am.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

alexm said:


> What I/we have is 2-4 one night stands a month. it just happens that we know each other and live together.
> .



And that's why intimacy, like art, needs to have a meaning. Without meaning it is pointless. I largely gave up on infrequent sex with my wife for exactly that reason.


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

Have you tried watching porn together?..


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

alexm said:


> The problem (if it IS a problem) is that I don't, and never have viewed sex with somebody I love to be purely physical and an act of having needs met.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm harsh and blunt. I'm not a head bobber. 

If you think your lucky because your wife has sex with you but no intimacy that's a lie your telling yourself. Stay, don't stay. Makes no difference to me. 

But accept reality. Your a serial monogamist. You pick broken women hoping they'll come around when the common thing is you. You've chosen poorly and now want to sit there and say "oh there's nothing I can do!" Your wife is a vampire and your cool with it. 

Me, I want a fulfilling life, I'll be the master of my own destiny.


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## James2020 (Jun 4, 2014)

Well all I can say is this kind of sounds like my wife, in some respects, except you seem to have the better version... if I had to put it into bullet points, it's something like this:

-- we have sex 3 times a week because it's scheduled (never spontaneous), if we can skip a day she's very happy about that
-- it's was always me initiating sex unless she had a lot to drink then once in a while she would initiate, even on the scheduled days it's me bringing it up etc.
-- there is definitely never anticipation or afterglow on her part when we have sex, it's just a task that is completed and then she either goes to sleep or reads stuff on her phone
-- she doesn't really even enjoy sex or allow me to give her an O by any means, but she doesn't seem to care about it, she just has sex because i want it
-- she does spend time on her own about once or twice a month watching some porn and masturbating (apparently that's still common for asexuals), it's not a huge thing she only takes 10 min or so each time always when i am away and when kids are away or sleeping

I've posted about my situation a few times... no one ever really mentioned she could be asexual, it seemed like a lot of other people were having similar experiences.

Now I am wondering if she IS asexual... she "joked" about it before but now maybe she was serious I don't know.

I feel your pain, I definitely crave this sexual desire from her that I rarely remember ever getting, and definitely never ever get now... though maybe I did a bit when we met, it was over 10 years ago now so I am not even sure anymore.

It's frustrating how such a seemingly simple thing that you would assume was a "default" for being in love and getting married is suddenly missing in our relationship... and leaves me wondering how we even ended up here, and why I did not see it all along. With two kids and over a decade together, it's not something that's easy to just leave behind for one simple thing... but it is painful, and I find the pain comes in waves. Sometimes I am fine with it and just don't care, and sometimes it really frustrates and hurts me and I feel very confused and alone.

If there is a solution to this, I certainly do not know it. Divorce is a really stupid option, I don't want to break up my family and who knows if I would ever be happy with another person... at the same time, these waves of hurt and frustration really suck.

Life, is complicated.


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

James2020 said:


> Well all I can say is this kind of sounds like my wife, in some respects, except you seem to have the better version... if I had to put it into bullet points, it's something like this:
> 
> -- we have sex 3 times a week because it's scheduled (never spontaneous), if we can skip a day she's very happy about that
> -- it's was always me initiating sex unless she had a lot to drink then once in a while she would initiate, even on the scheduled days it's me bringing it up etc.
> ...



It's a world if plenty. Divorce is certainly an option. Is it better to teach your kids to stay with someone and be unhappy or teach them to be good enders and find someone who's compatible?

I had a friend get divorced for his high school sweet heart. 10 years ago you would have never thought to could happen. 2 weeks after he divorced her, 3 of her so called friends called to "see if he needed a friend to talk too". There are 7 billion people on this earth. I bet 10,000 women in my area could replace my wife (or men me).


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## James2020 (Jun 4, 2014)

U.E. McGill said:


> It's a world if plenty. Divorce is certainly an option. Is it better to teach your kids to stay with someone and be unhappy or teach them to be good enders and find someone who's compatible?
> 
> I had a friend get divorced for his high school sweet heart. 10 years ago you would have never thought to could happen. 2 weeks after he divorced her, 3 of her so called friends called to "see if he needed a friend to talk too". There are 7 billion people on this earth. I bet 10,000 women in my area could replace my wife (or men me).


I guess I could agree with that, it's just that everything else about our marriage is really great... and I truly love her. So it's really "just" this one "thing" -- it's really annoying that it's even an issue... I wish she would just change or I could just stop caring... because seriously everything else is really great, such a shame!


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

I think this whole asexual thing is a cop out if you will. they were sexual enough to trap a man and take his money. and then the whole I never was really into sex I could take it or leave it attitude.

but sometimes I masturbate. again I could take it or leave it.

I call bullsh*t their just lazy lovers and would prefer to be chased and then they settled for stability instead of becoming an old maid.


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

James2020 said:


> Well all I can say is this kind of sounds like my wife, in some respects, except you seem to have the better version... if I had to put it into bullet points, it's something like this:
> 
> -- we have sex 3 times a week because it's scheduled (never spontaneous), if we can skip a day she's very happy about that
> -- it's was always me initiating sex unless she had a lot to drink then once in a while she would initiate, even on the scheduled days it's me bringing it up etc.
> ...


The fact that you are having sex 3 times a week is something to celebrate. If she was asexual she would be avoiding sex and then you would really have something to complain about. You are lucky that she wants to take care of you. She just may not enjoy it as much as you do. I think in general men enjoy sex more than women do.


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## James2020 (Jun 4, 2014)

chillymorn said:


> I think this whole asexual thing is a cop out if you will. they were sexual enough to trap a man and take his money. and then the whole I never was really into sex I could take it or leave it attitude.
> 
> but sometimes I masturbate. again I could take it or leave it.
> 
> I call bullsh*t their just lazy lovers and would prefer to be chased and then they settled for stability instead of becoming an old maid.


I guess so, but then again when I look at it all I don't think it's so calculated. I think she was into it at one point... I think there MUST have been mutual sexual attraction, I find it hard to believe I would be so blind. Maybe it's something that just faded away, and now it's just something that is done because she has to do it rather than wants to.. and doesn't want to put in the effort to start wanting it again. As long as the husband doesn't complain, just put out and get it over with and move on... easier than arguing and trying to change.

It's a sad reality, one that I definitely have found myself in. Certainly wish she would be more willing to enjoy sex again and desire me sexually. I can see how this drives people to cheat... I hope for the both of us I never happen to come across some younger attractive girl who's lusting for me. It wouldn't even be so much about the sex or the girl, but just about being desired. As committed as I am to my marriage, that sort of situation would be a stark contrast and difficult to ignore. Perhaps I would be able to overcome it, but it certainly would be a difficult temptation to avoid. It would almost seem possible that some girls target exactly these sorts of situations, seems like "low hanging fruit"... anyway, getting a bit off topic. 

Just saying it's a frustrating situation, and I can see how it leads to all sorts of problems.


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

I tried to think about this problem seriously. So, why don't you just stop? Stop being romantic. Stop trying to seduce or initiate. Stop being intimate more than a good night kiss. Be nice, don't hurt your women, but stop trying sooooo hard.

I think that the problem may be that you are trying to get it out of her so hard that it suffocates any desire in her. Sometimes it's therapeutic to allow the other person to realize what they are missing by taking it away from them. Let them come around. It may happen or it may not - that will be the answer. But trying to romance/massage/squeeze it out of someone only brings the opposite result. 

The other poster mentioned scheduled sex. It may be wise in some situations, but it's really hard to get excited about it. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## James2020 (Jun 4, 2014)

rubymoon said:


> I tried to think about this problem seriously. So, why don't you just stop? Stop being romantic. Stop trying to seduce or initiate. Stop being intimate more than a good night kiss. Be nice, don't hurt your women, but stop trying sooooo hard.
> 
> I think that the problem may be that you are trying to get it out of her so hard that it suffocates any desire in her. Sometimes it's therapeutic to allow the other person to realize what they are missing by taking it away from them. Let them come around. It may happen or it may not - that will be the answer. But trying to romance/massage/squeeze it out of someone only brings the opposite result.
> 
> ...


My 2 cents about this... would be that when I tried to just, stop and not care... it was *months* of nothing.


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

James2020 said:


> My 2 cents about this... would be that when I tried to just, stop and not care... it was *months* of nothing.



How's the rest of your home life? Bills get paid, money in the bank? You overweight? When your wife asks "what do you want to do?" Do you have an answer? Has she ever gotten mad at you and took over a chore because you didn't do it?


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

Damn... I don't know how much money would buy my "nothing" for months, but it's gotta be a whole lot! I am a regular person, but I cannot imagine not having my husband grabbing me for months... I almost lost my mind in a month... I feel your pain...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

But at the end, down the yellow brick road, money may be the best benchmark of staying together or leaving.


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## Big Dude (Feb 24, 2013)

alexm said:


> I love her, and she loves me. I am not leaving her. I will deal with this one day at a time.


Alexm, I'm about a year and a half ahead of you with a similar situation. And although I completely understand your thinking, I think you ought to reconsider this baseline position. I'm not saying that you should leave her, but you should think hard about doing so. The danger of being in limbo sexually for the rest of your life is a real one I think.

I ask you to consider some questions it has taken me a while to even think of. Maybe this will save you some time.

Would you have married this woman if you had known then what you know now?

Do you think that your wife can/will be able to sustain what she provides sexually now over the long term given her lack of sexual desire for you?

Do you think you can change your sexual character and learn to appreciate sex with a compliant robot? It seems sometimes that a number of men on TAM wish for nothing more!

Do you really think that your history with some sexually fvcked up women indicates that a future sexual partner would be just as bad? It's possible that such women are for some reason powerfully (but not sexually) drawn to certain kinds of men (like us!) but I would hope that we can learn to avoid them in the future.

Do you think that when other attractive women flirt with you it's not going to crush your soul? Trust me, this gets harder and harder as time goes on.

I really do empathize with your situation. Going forward, any choice you make is going to be bad. Deciding what will be less bad is your unenviable task. Spend the time to think, but don't let yourself get trapped in limbo.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

alexm said:


> Warning: long post
> 
> 6 years together, a year married,* love of my life and I am hers*.
> 
> I have posted here many times about a lack of sex drive on her part, and no initiation to speak of. Because *the sex is good, and she knows what she's doing and enjoys it immensely, that has been enough, in my eyes.*


Keep thinking about this, Alex! Get out of your head or you're going to drive yourself crazy! You LOVE her, she LOVES you and you have a great sex life.



alexm said:


> It could be better, in terms of her desiring me and initiating and making me feel wanted, *but it's never been like that*, so I deal and keep the complaining to a minimum. She makes sure I am well taken care of the 2-4 times a month we are intimate, and she most definitely enjoys herself. She is multi orgasmic and there's little we haven't done or tried in the bedroom.


You knew this and have for 6 years...What's the problem all of a sudden? I know, you wrote about being desired. But, don't you think she's showing desire when having sex? Multi orgasmic and being open to just about everything in bed? That IS desire, Alex. She's not a machine and can't get wet on demand...Orgasms on demand...



alexm said:


> My wife has said this over the years - that she's never felt the desire to have sex and doesn't think about sex, and never HAS thought about sex. She has said that she could live the rest of her life without sex because it isn't important to her - and she said this long before she even knew that asexuality was a thing.


Yet, she looks after YOUR needs. What a crappy wife...Okay, she doesn't think about sex (My wife rarely does) So what? 

Look, you both seem to be happy except your longing to be "desired" which I think she's already doing. Just not the way you want her to show it. 

We're all wired differently dude. I hate showing affection in public, around family, only behind closed doors. Weird, huh? My wife thinks so :rofl: I was brought up that way, with a house full of Vulcans! I know it's my issue and we do holds hands and show affection in public now. Still makes me feel a little odd but whatever floats her boat. I'm sure I'll get used to it eventually lol

Point being, can you just stop the hamster wheel in your head and LOVE her the way you do? Are you willing to toss the marriage aside because she's "different"? 

Best,

T


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

alexm said:


> My wife likes to shop, I hate it. I used to tag along, and I would be respectful and not hurry her TOO much.


Does that make you ashopual ?


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

if your wife has never desired sex, never thinks of sex, then clearly she will not object to you finding another person to have sex with. find another HD woman who is in the same situation, and see if you can do some swapping? You and the other woman have real fun, and your wife and the other man....I guess, can watch the history channel or something. :rofl:


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

T&T said:


> Keep thinking about this, Alex! Get out of your head or you're going to drive yourself crazy! You LOVE her, she LOVES you and you have a great sex life.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is an excellent post, and I appreciate the words. And they would all be 100% correct in most situations.

Again, only a few people who have replied understand what "asexual" means, and that's the difference.

Yes, you are correct, in theory nothing is wrong - we love each other, we (more or less) provide each other with our differing needs and wants, etc.

In practice, it's not so smooth.

Yes, I have it better than some, and I'm genuinely not complaining.

The fact that my wife (like all other asexuals) doesn't find me, or anybody else, physically or sexually attractive IS an issue, despite the existence of a sex life.

There is an innate human need to be desired physically, both in men and in women. As Cheap Trick says: "I want you to want me".

Yes, our sex is good. No, our sex LIFE is not good. No matter how awesome the physical sex is, my wife has no need or desire for it and could live the rest of her life without it. She does not think about it, fantasize, get turned on by anything, etc.

Sexual arousal only occurs through having actual sex. Not a second before. It is a purely physical response, and I could be anyone. There is no emotional connection for her with sex, it does absolutely nothing for her other than provide physical enjoyment.

I realize this does not sound horrible to many of you, trust me, I do. I know that those of you who are not having any sex, or having duty sex once a month probably long for what I have - I get it. And therefore it's easy to tell me to shut up and be happy.

But the fact remains - I, like most men, receive and show affection and emotional closeness through physical/sexual contact. This makes us feel closer to our partners. Women tend to require the emotional closeness first, which is then followed by sex.

For example, when we men are upset, angry or stressed, we will still have sex with you if you initiate. It makes us feel better. When women are upset, angry or stressed, just try and bring your wife to bed with you. You'll get a "you have to be kidding me" response.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

rubymoon said:


> I tried to think about this problem seriously. So, why don't you just stop? Stop being romantic. Stop trying to seduce or initiate. Stop being intimate more than a good night kiss. Be nice, don't hurt your women, but stop trying sooooo hard.
> 
> I think that the problem may be that you are trying to get it out of her so hard that it suffocates any desire in her. Sometimes it's therapeutic to allow the other person to realize what they are missing by taking it away from them. Let them come around. It may happen or it may not - that will be the answer. But trying to romance/massage/squeeze it out of someone only brings the opposite result.
> 
> ...


As James said, it amounts to nothing.

I will tell you that my wife does not think about sex, period. Ever. Not even in the context of me needing it. When we do have sex, it's because she's been "reminded" that it exists and that I need it.

If I stop with the romance and being thoughtful and all of that, she does not equate that with the lack of my sexual/physical needs being met. It's not like she will put 2 and 2 together. In the past, if I have been particularly lacking in her needs, she will ask what's up. And this is the point, she has to ask.

You, and many other women (and men I suppose) would generally already know what's up and know how to give the relationship a kickstart.

I have had other relationships before, and I know that if my attention to my partner is lacking, then I will not be receiving what I need in return. There is (or should be, if two people love each other) a ROI in a relationship. It's not tit-for-tat, you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours, it's more emotional than that. Of course people are more willing to provide for your needs if you provide for theirs. Provided they genuinely understand what your needs ARE in the first place.

It's like the playing darts analogy I gave earlier. I do not think about playing darts, ever. Even though it can be enjoyable, and I don't hate darts and even derive some pleasure from playing the game. Darts can be fun, but I don't think of playing darts unless someone says "Hey Mike, want to play darts?" or "Mike, we haven't played darts in months!".

As I am learning, asexuals not only do not require, desire or think about sex, they simply don't understand what the big deal is, and often they won't even recognize - or remember - the need for it in their partners (if they have one).


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

murphy5 said:


> if your wife has never desired sex, never thinks of sex, then clearly she will not object to you finding another person to have sex with. find another HD woman who is in the same situation, and see if you can do some swapping? You and the other woman have real fun, and your wife and the other man....I guess, can watch the history channel or something. :rofl:


I am in need of sexual contact in order to meet my emotional needs within the marriage, not physical. Those are being met. Another woman I am not in love with can not provide me with anything that my wife already can't.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Big Dude said:


> Alexm, I'm about a year and a half ahead of you with a similar situation. And although I completely understand your thinking, I think you ought to reconsider this baseline position. I'm not saying that you should leave her, but you should think hard about doing so. The danger of being in limbo sexually for the rest of your life is a real one I think.
> 
> I ask you to consider some questions it has taken me a while to even think of. Maybe this will save you some time.
> 
> Would you have married this woman if you had known then what you know now?.


*I probably would have, yes. It would have been far easier to deal with had I known what I was getting into, though. Had she told me right off the bat "I don't think about sex nor do I feel sexual attraction to anyone, and never have, but I do enjoy the physical aspect of sex and am willing to provide this for you", then yes. I would know what to expect and temper those expectations accordingly.*



Big Dude said:


> Do you think that your wife can/will be able to sustain what she provides sexually now over the long term given her lack of sexual desire for you?.


*I believe so, yes. I am lucky that she enjoys sex physically. I'm sure with age the physical aspect may lessen, but I don't believe she will remove it from the equation entirely.

The interesting thing with her is that, in theory, I could have sex with her on a daily basis (provided she's not sick, or absolutely exhausted). To her, it's just a thing to do. The quality would suffer, I'm sure, and it would turn into a chore. As it is now it's infrequent enough to be (usually) very physically satisfying for both of us. Physiologically, she's normal, everything works, and as with most of us, the longer we go without, the better the sex tends to be. The first time we had sex, she hadn't had sex in about 8 or 9 months. She had 7 orgasms. So even asexuals can channel that pent-up energy and explode *



Big Dude said:


> Do you think you can change your sexual character and learn to appreciate sex with a compliant robot? It seems sometimes that a number of men on TAM wish for nothing more!.


*Well, that is sort of along the lines of my mindset right now. I will not completely submit to being a robot myself, as I will not throw aside my own sexuality. However I do recognize that maintaining the desire I have now will not do me any favors, either.

TMI, but I am fairly sexual person. With sex being about once a week, I generally fill those gaps with masturbation. Not on a daily basis, usually, but at times it is and it's more than once a day. I have consciously, over the past few weeks, kept my mind on other things, and in the past two weeks, give or take a day, I have had sex once and masturbated once. My desire is still there, but it's not as strong as it has, I suppose. I just have to find a good balance where I maintain my sexuality, yet it's not always "there", if that makes sense.*



Big Dude said:


> Do you really think that your history with some sexually fvcked up women indicates that a future sexual partner would be just as bad? It's possible that such women are for some reason powerfully (but not sexually) drawn to certain kinds of men (like us!) but I would hope that we can learn to avoid them in the future..


*I think I've just had bad luck in the sex department! I'm not overly experienced, for what it's worth (5 partners, plus a couple of women/girls I've fooled around with).*



Big Dude said:


> Do you think that when other attractive women flirt with you it's not going to crush your soul? Trust me, this gets harder and harder as time goes on..


*It happens occasionally, and I admit I like it. I do derive some satisfaction when a woman is obviously interested (or would be if I were single). But that's normal. It makes me feel good, and desirable, but not from the person who matters to me.*



Big Dude said:


> I really do empathize with your situation. Going forward, any choice you make is going to be bad. Deciding what will be less bad is your unenviable task. Spend the time to think, but don't let yourself get trapped in limbo.


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

alexm said:


> I am in need of sexual contact in order to meet my emotional needs within the marriage, not physical. Those are being met. Another woman I am not in love with can not provide me with anything that my wife already can't.



Your afraid of rejection. So you accept the rejection that's guaranteed at home, for unknown out in the world.

So you but up a buffer "yeah but at least I know what I have at home. She's good in so many ways". 

Are you cool with that?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

James2020 said:


> My 2 cents about this... would be that when I tried to just, stop and not care... it was *months* of nothing.


To me, that is better than not knowing. Any particular suggestion risks a bad result - that does not mean you don't try.

Knowing her true desire is valuable information that will allow him to decide what he can live with.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

U.E. McGill said:


> Your afraid of rejection. So you accept the rejection that's guaranteed at home, for unknown out in the world.
> 
> So you but up a buffer "yeah but at least I know what I have at home. She's good in so many ways".
> 
> Are you cool with that?


Can't disagree with that, and you are correct.

That said, seeking perfection in a relationship is nearly impossible. Most (all?) of us have to accept one thing or another and get on with our lives. I've known people who have been married 3 times or more, and it blows my mind. Nobody's ever good enough.

That's not to say that I will keep this marriage alive on my own - that just won't happen. There will be a breaking point, and it's up to us to make sure I/we don't get there. At this point, it is mostly up to her to ensure it doesn't happen. I have my part to play, as well, but as with anything relationship-related, if there's a massive imbalance going on in terms of maintaining the marriage, it'll sink.

If it gets to the point where I hand her divorce papers and tell her this is it, then that will happen. If THAT'S the point in time that it really hits home for her and she shapes up, then so be it. I would like to avoid having to be that drastic until there's no other option. By that time, if I'm mentally able to hand her divorce papers and she signs them, I will have arrived at the point where I can mentally and emotionally detach, anyway. I'm not there yet.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Tall Average Guy said:


> To me, that is better than not knowing. Any particular suggestion risks a bad result - that does not mean you don't try.
> 
> Knowing her true desire is valuable information that will allow him to decide what he can live with.


I think it really depends on how well you know your partner in order for this tactic to work.

Some people require a kick in the A to get moving. Some people resent it, and others don't even notice it, or put 2 and 2 together.

My wife would fall into the latter two categories - probably wouldn't notice it, and if she did, would resent it.

My ex wife, for all her faults, would be a category A - if her needs weren't being met, she'd notice that I was lacking in that dept. and act accordingly and I would benefit for a short while. No talking necessary. She at least knew that in order to get what she wanted/needed, she had to provide the same for me.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

So she married you without being attracted to you? I'm reading page 2 and it says asexual people can like sex but not be sexually attracted to people.

WHAT?

Let's just put this out on the table now. It sucks it had to be on page 7 or 8 where no one will ever see it. She is a typical low drive spouse that when she actually spends a few minutes to be unselfish and take care of your needs, she does it very well. Why does she do it very well? Because she does enjoy sex as it's happening, but when it's over, she'd rather watch TV, browse the internet, read a book, and do a 100 other things rather than spend intimate time with you. HOW DO YOU NOT THINK ABOUT INTIMACY. Let's get one thing straight. Not thinking about or like sex has absolutely NOTHING to do with thinking about your spouses needs. If you tell me you are asexual, do not get upset when I ask, are you aintimacy? Yes, I made up a word. Why do I have to make up the word aintimacy, because it doesn't exist. Unless your wife has aspergers or is autistic, then she should understand that you have needs and it's not okay to ignore them. Bad relationship habits led to a bad sex life. A bad sex life means your relationship lacks intimacy. Is intimacy always sex? Nope, but sex is the intimacy I am referring to in this post. When I say intimacy, I mean making love. I mean bonding. I mean joining up with your spouse and becoming one being for a short period of time. I mean smelling your partner, feeling your partners heartbeat, their insides, their outsides, their muscles, their thrusts, their breath, their lungs, their body. From the beginning of a relationship, you let your partner know your beliefs, your needs, and the importance of intimacy. If it's important to you to be wanted, then you make sure she understands you need to feel wanted. You mentioned you are not beta, but you let her slip so far away from where you need her to be to be happy, I can't help but to consider you anything but. Instead of fixing the issues, you blindly defend her excuses.

And if you ask her why she doesn't think about you the same was you think about her she'll respond, "Well, you want me so much that I never get a chance to want you back/first." 

In other words, stop having sex for a few weeks and maybe she will get the urge to initiate sex and want you more. Stop being intimate and maybe I will feel the urge to be intimate. She'll doesn't initiate because she she is ignoring your needs. It sounds more like she is using the term asexual, rather than the term "low drive." Both are irrelevant though, because having a low drive or being asexual is not an excuse to ignore your spouses needs.

Btw, there was a time I went through the same thing. Although I was young and I didn't understand what was happening, I knew I was unhappy. I felt bad for asking for sex, I felt worse feeling unwanted. 

I've now have sex twice a day for the last 3 years. My wife initiates 90% of the time, and if I walk past her nude she will slap my ass, grab my penis, or say something sexual to me like a teenage boy. This was the same woman who was supposedly "asexual" with the exact same issues as your spouse. Almost identical.

It's not asexual, its selfish and lazy behavior and it's the road to divorce. You say you never think about sex? Okay, great! I am asking you to think about me and intimacy. If you say "I am asexual and I don't think about you or intimacy either." I say, well we do not need to be together, because you not thinking about me or intimacy is nothing but selfish behavior, it's neglect, and I feel emotionally abused. 

Yes, it's abusive and neglect. Nothing frustrates me more than these selfish angles people try to take to neglect their spouses needs. From, I am low drive, to now I am asexual. I don't care if you never think of sex for the rest of your life, but you better think of me, think of us being intimate, and think of my needs. Sorry for the rant.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

The word is actually intimacy-avoidant and you didn't make it up, it does exist and is not the same as asexual.

Alexm, I'm sorry there isn't more understanding about this issue here at TAM, I hope you'll do some other research, or perhaps join the AVEN community for support.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Coldie said:


> So she married you without being attracted to you? I'm reading page 2 and it says asexual people can like sex but not be sexually attracted to people.
> 
> WHAT?
> 
> Let's just put this out on the table now. It sucks it had to be on page 7 or 8 where no one will ever see it. She is a typical low drive spouse that when she actually spends a few minutes to be unselfish and take care of your needs, she does it very well. Why does she do it very well? Because she does enjoy sex as it's happening, but when it's over, she'd rather watch TV, browse the internet, read a book, and do a 100 other things rather than spend intimate time with you. HOW DO YOU NOT THINK ABOUT INTIMACY. Let's get one thing straight.


---snip---


That's all well and good, but you are describing somebody who has had desire in the past, and now they don't (or are lazy, or selfish, or whatever other pejorative words you are using).

The fact is, there are apparently many people out there who have never, not once, ever had any kind of desire to have sex, be sexual, or be sexually attracted to another human being. This does not mean that they are not capable of loving, of being loved or of desiring a relationship.

I am certain there ARE people out there who stumble across this word and use it to describe how they are at that moment, or have been for a couple of years, not recognizing that their sex drive is simply not there anymore, NOT that it has been non-existent their whole lives.

I am sure there ARE people out there who use it as a convenient excuse to their partners to whom they feel no sexual attraction to.

I do not believe my wife is among those people. But I am not in her head, so I can't say for sure. I know that she believes this describes her to a T, and this issue of not feeling the vibe of sexuality has been with her since puberty.

This is what she tells me. If she has an ulterior motive for making this up, I don't know, and I hope I never find out.

I have no choice but to hear what she says. If I disagree or challenge her assessment of herself, I am not doing her (or our relationship) any favors.

And for the last time, with feeling: this is a real thing. It doesn't matter if you find it ridiculous or not, your "theories" are appalling, imo. To accuse 3-4 million people in the US alone of being liars is insane.


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

alexm said:


> ---snip---
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So has a health professional diagnosed her? Maybe she has Asbergers? Or some other spectrum?

As a husband are you going to let her sit there and give you some self diagnosis? Your cool with that? Would you let her ignore a lump in her breast because it "doesn't hurt".?

There's lots of behavioral specialists who can work with both of you in this.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Sex is not the issue.

Emotional connection is the issue.

Familiarity and living under the same roof is good enough for some people...why change a good thing?

The emotional connection issue is very insidious. We look at ourselves as successful professionals and do not wish to expose ourselves to be "vulnerable love stricken kids" as my wife explained.

That's what it's all about. 

Your partner should be able to lighten up a room when he or she walks in (in your eyes). You should act as kids once in a while. If not...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Sex is not the issue.
> 
> Emotional connection is the issue.


:iagree:


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## Big Tree (Jul 25, 2014)

My wife has Aspergers.

She is asexual in the way the OP describes. Sex is sex. She does not feel desire for sex. Never has.

She is enthusiastic and enjoys the act. She does not engage in foreplay. She doesn't cuddle or touch afterwards unless I ask for that.

For her, there is no romance or emotion involved in the act of having sex.

I'm with you Alexm. I've had hopes to connect romantically and emotionally through sex with my wife. After she was diagnosed, I had to face that it just wasn't in the cards. I had to face the facts and deal with the loss of that hope.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Big Tree said:


> My wife has Aspergers.
> 
> She is asexual in the way the OP describes. Sex is sex. She does not feel desire for sex. Never has.
> 
> ...


That is very interesting, and another angle (thank god).

She is due to see our doctor and have her hormones checked and all that. Unfortunately she's in no rush.. As far as Asperger's, I will definitely look into that.

*edit, looked up Asperger's and nope. Other than what you describe in regards to your wife's sexuality, there's really nothing there at all. In fact, my wife is probably the complete opposite of most of the traits listed. Outgoing, confident, lots of friends, no developmental issues, language skills are normal. She struggles with empathy from time to time, though.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> The word is actually intimacy-avoidant and you didn't make it up, it does exist and is not the same as asexual.


Google disagrees with you. However, that wasn't my point. You can replace the word intimacy with any word that describes a need. Semantics.





alexm said:


> ---snip---
> 
> 
> That's all well and good, but you are describing somebody who has had desire in the past, and now they don't (or are lazy, or selfish, or whatever other pejorative words you are using).
> ...


In other words, you've decided to defend her self diagnosis.

And no, my reply did not accuse 3-4 million people of being liars. However, it did accuse the spouse self diagnosing herself in this thread as being a bit ridiculous, yes. Especially since I've seen the exact same behavior.

If you are hungry will she feed you? You have needs correct? Do you have a need to feel wanted? I understand you are stuck on the word asexual, because you'd rather disregard my "theories" as insane. It's insane for me say a person who knows your needs and what makes you happy, should take care of your needs? It's insane for me to suggest that ignoring your needs is selfish, neglect, and abusive?

Yes, that seems very insane. 

Thinking about sex has nothing to do with thinking about your spouse. Not liking sex has nothing to do with loving your spouse. Sex never crossing her mind has nothing to do with you crossing her mind. You have needs. You've explained your needs. She is finding reasons through different articles she is reading why it's okay to ignore your needs. Being asexual is not an excuse to ignore your needs. 

You seem to not want to accept that, but what can I do. These crazy theories of mine.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

It really is as basic as, "Can you please remind me each day to take my pill?" And instead of reminding you (initiating), spouses come up with various reasons why they a) do not believe in pills, do not take pills, do not like pills b) have a low pill tolerance c) don't care.

You've asked her to initiate and make you feel wanted. That's it. It's simple. During sex she enjoys herself, very much. In fact, your sex life during, sounds amazing. Multiple orgasms, everything. I'm sorry she is asexual and sex doesn't cross her mind. I'm sorry that she has no interest in sex. But you've asked her to simply make you feel wanted. That's it. You didn't ask her to love sex, or think about sex. You asked her to think about YOU.

It's a simple task and she could set an alarm on her phone that says, "Remind my soul mate, the guy I vowed to spend the rest of my life with, that I love him and make him feel special. This is what he wants and he is hurting because he is not getting it." 

That would be too simple. It's easier to make excuses than to blame someone you love for being selfish.


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

I can so empathise with Alex M. I am convinced my wife is asexual too.
She has no interest in sex either but when we did used to do it, albeit very vanilla, she enjoyed it and orgasmed.

But because it was so infrequent and then when it did happen frankly boring and because I was rejected so often I have lost all interest in sex with her.

So in effect her asexuality has made me asexual - well atleast towards her.
And the thing is, it doesn't seem to bother her a jot that I am no longer interested. I suppose because subconsciously she has managed to 'convert' me. What I should have done is stood up and said 'Hey! I am not prepeared to live like this'....maybe I'm a whimp.

As AlexM said; we all like to feel needed, desired etc.

And when you aren't you feel rejected and dejected. I am quite sure that is a major cause of my short temperedness....


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

askari said:


> I can so empathise with Alex M. I am convinced my wife is asexual too.
> 
> She has no interest in sex either but when we did used to do it, albeit very vanilla, she enjoyed it and orgasmed.
> 
> ...



Let me restate this for you "by accepting her asexuallity I HAVE MADE MYSELF ASEXUAL"

Seriously I have no sympathy for you. Demand respect. 

She denies you intimacy, and she denies herself. The one thing a man and wife can truly share and your stuck at home like a good buddy?

All of you guys who live this way understand this is your choice. YOUR CHOICE.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Coldie said:


> Google disagrees with you. However, that wasn't my point. You can replace the word intimacy with any word that describes a need. Semantics.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with what you are saying, just not how you are saying it.

Your last paragraph is spot on, and that is something I have tried to get across to her for years now - if you can't/don't think about sex, think about ME, and MY needs for sex.

I AM angry, trust me. THAT part is so frustrating, and is really the cause of our issues in this regard. I can live with the fact that she doesn't think about, or desire sex, mainly because it's not just ME she's not attracted to in that way, it's everybody. I don't take it personally.

What I do resent is the fact that it takes tremendous effort on my part to "remind" her of my needs. Nobody should have to do that. If she truly did not enjoy sex in addition to not thinking about it/thinking about me, I would move on, regardless of how I felt about her outside of the physical realm.

I am not saying that your words are wrong, per se, what I am saying is that there is no need to belittle me for my choices and actions in regards to what I (and she) are going through. There is no point in me throwing a tantrum to get what I want. I know my wife better than anybody else, and you do not know her one bit.

FWIW, I am NOT convinced of her self-diagnosis, however I AM convinced there is something not right in terms of her sexuality.

Throughout her close to 40 years, she has been sexually active with a relatively high number of partners. We were each others first bf/gf way back in our mid-teens, and we were together for 3 years. We went our separate ways around 18/19, and we went in completely opposite directions - her with lots of experimentation, me with stability. I met my (now) ex wife less than half a year after we broke up, and we were together 14 years. In those few months, I had a couple of flings.

Her story was vastly different. A rebound relationship immediately after me, followed by about a year or so of "freedom", so to speak. Hard partying, hookups, casual, ONS, then settled down with a guy for another 3 years (the 3 years thing is a trend...). He cheated on her repeatedly. That was followed by about 3 years of dating people for a few months, more casual stuff, ONS, etc. Then another longish relationship, followed by another 3 years of "whatever". Then again, another 3 year LTR, resulting in 2 kids, and an implosion of the relationship - which revolved around sex, imagine that. A solid year of nothing, no dates, no sex, nothing, and we re-connected again when I was going through my divorce.

Throughout all of that - nearly 20 years and some 25-30 men, she has never felt sexual desire towards anybody. She even experimented with a woman once, thinking she may be gay because of the lack of physical desire towards men. Wasn't the case, she's hetero.

To make things more confusing for her, she likes sex, in that she derives physical pleasure from it. In her own words, she has never initiated sex with someone else for the sole reason of having sex. If they didn't come to her, it wouldn't happen. This was the end of several of her relationships, especially the LTRs. The guy either cheated on her, or couldn't take it anymore. I am stronger than that, and she is worth more to me than she was to them.

She is not attracted to anything in particular about a man - short, fat, hairy, bald, hot, ripped - doesn't matter. She has no type, other than someone she likes being with. She is attracted to the person (or more likely in the past, a person who is interested in her). This is, I'm sure, part of why her sexual partner count is relatively high - she doesn't have that voice in her head that tells her this guy isn't sexually attractive to her, or not. Basically, if a guy was nice and seemed like a suitable partner, they would date, regardless of physical characteristics.

As many of us damn well know, if there's no physical attraction to someone, we won't date them, let alone have sex with them, no matter how suitable a partner (outside of sex) they would be. 

She does not have this filter, and I do believe she is not proud of her "number" and experience. To us average folks, she would come across as "easy". To her, having that amount of partners wasn't something odd. When love and emotion don't intertwine with sex, sex becomes something as mundane (though fun) as playing sports, or it's simply a part of dating - it's just what you do, and there's no big deal.

That is her approach to sex, or at least was. She now recognizes with her older age, that sex is really an important factor in a healthy relationship and something to be shared between two loving partners.

But the fact remains, this is an on-paper, not in practice thing for her. Just because she knows that's how it's "supposed" to be, does not mean she understands it. To her, it always has been, and likely always will be, a case of sex is sex, and love is love, never the two shall meet.

That is why she has self-identified as an asexual, because that is the very basest definition of it - you don't think of sex, ever, and never have, and sex is purely a physiological thing, not an emotional, romantic, loving, caring thing.

I can't argue with that. I could argue her on it if sex wasn't always like that for her. I could then argue that if she thought about sex, was horny, sought out sex etc at one point in her life, but now she doesn't, that there is a mental block (or hormonal) resulting from past guilt, trauma, bad experiences, whatever. That is not the case. She is adamant she has ALWAYS been like this.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Alex, I apologize. I understand that my delivery rubs some people the wrong way. I wasn't trying to purposely belittle you, I am just passionate about the subject because I feel like I was in your shoes. I was almost talking to myself 5 years ago.

With that being said, I was where you were at brother. Although I saw you say earlier that my wife once had it, while yours never did. I'd add, my wife also never had it, never initiated, told me, "You want it too much for me to ever want it first." I would cry and talk to her about how unwanted I felt. For maybe just the night I cried she would initiate to pretend she listened, then back to her old ways. I would send emails, write letters, and she was exactly how you described in this thread. When the issue was about "sex" I would lose every time. And maybe she was asexual. She did have some abuse issues as a child and all of her previous boyfriends, she's bragged, we're beta. She ended up not liking any of them. I honestly feel because I was more alpha and she couldn't really control me, we ended up together. I love her with all my heart. Unfortunately though, I was young. Through the years the alpha faded away and I started feeling guilty for asking for sex. Even though she never said no, she NEVER initiated. She never looked at me when I walked by her nude. She never complimented me. She never mentioned sex and if I would talk about it, she would totally tune me out. During sex was the only time she would show any interest. And by interest I mean, while I was penetrating, she would always moan and grab me. She always made me feel like a man while I had sex with her. It's the one thing she did amazing sexually. It's where I felt normal. But oral sex, anything a bit experimental, she'd do if I asked, but you can tell she had no interest. 

I can't win an argument when it comes to talking about sex. I can't make her like sex. I can never be right and will always be the insensitive a$$hole when it comes to sex. Asexual. Low Drive. Whatever it may be that defends a person's behavior. I am not saying it isn't real or legit. I am saying intimacy and my needs have nothing to do with sex, low drives, or her being asexual. EVER. And when people try to blur the lines and turn intimacy or my needs into a discussion about, "well, she just doesn't think about sex," I get very passionate. We can't win this argument Alex. I can't go back into my mindset of defending her behavior and pretending she loves me, but just totally ignores my needs. I can't go back into the mind set where I thought I was totally alpha yet I felt guilty about everything I needed, just because she would purposely sigh when I asked if I could spend time with her. It hurt. She tried to mold me into her other boyfriends. She tried to erase what she fell in love with me for in the first place and turn me into the guys she was never interested in. 

How could she possibly make me feel guilty for wanting to spend time with the person I love more than everything in the world? How could she sit there and look at me and say she can't make me feel wanted because she just doesn't think about sex like I do? What the hell does sex have to do with my needs or me wanting to feel wanted. Instead of dealing with the real issue, she turned it into a complex issue I couldn't win. And constantly, she tried to blur the lines and make me seem like a pig for always wanting sex. No, I always want to make love to you. I always want to feel wanted. I always want to be close to the person I dedicated my entire life to. She didn't do it on purpose, but she did it. 

I stopped talking about sex and started talking about my needs. At that point, I no longer was insensitive and she could no longer win arguments. She was selfish, insensitive to my needs, and made excuses for her behavior rather than took care of me. I will stop there, because there is no one exact answer to fix the problem. Thankfully for me, our relationship took a total 180. I cannot keep up with her. She has scheduled times in her day to make sure we spend intimacy time, and she has never been more happy. I could read letters from her on this forum where she says, "I finally feel free." Not only was she not asexual, she came out as being bisexual (and a lot more). Not the place for this discussion but I apologize for how passionate I get. 

Trust me, my heart is in the right place and I hate that you are going through this. I just hope you make the right decisions for yourself, because I promise you, being asexual or low drive is not a reason to ignore your needs. It's selfish, neglect, and yes, abusive. It's just as abusive as a spouse emotionally or physically abusing his/her spouse. I'd rather be punched each day and feel totally wanted, than not get touched at all and feel totally unwanted.

If the relationship is abusive, don't make or help her find excuses. That's all I am saying.


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## Big Tree (Jul 25, 2014)

alexm said:


> *edit, looked up Asperger's and nope. Other than what you describe in regards to your wife's sexuality, there's really nothing there at all. In fact, my wife is probably the complete opposite of most of the traits listed. Outgoing, confident, lots of friends, no developmental issues, language skills are normal. She struggles with empathy from time to time, though.


As you say, you know your wife. I do not. 

Women with ASD present differently than men. Have you ever watched the TV series Bones? Dr. Brennan is a pretty great example of a woman with ASD.


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

^^^ this guy. Money. (Coldie)


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Or find a way to inspire it somehow.

Okay, may be impossible. Sorry about that.


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## Big Tree (Jul 25, 2014)

alexm said:


> I AM angry, trust me. THAT part is so frustrating, and is really the cause of our issues in this regard. I can live with the fact that she doesn't think about, or desire sex, mainly because it's not just ME she's not attracted to in that way, it's everybody. I don't take it personally.
> 
> What I do resent is the fact that it takes tremendous effort on my part to "remind" her of my needs. Nobody should have to do that. If she truly did not enjoy sex in addition to not thinking about it/thinking about me, I would move on, regardless of how I felt about her outside of the physical realm.


That was my great resentment as well.

My wife and I stumbled on a solution to "remind" her of my needs. We started putting stickers on our home calendar every time we had sex. It serves as a great visual reminder. Now, she will look and initiate if it has been a while.

At any rate, I'm hearing you. Keep looking for a workaround.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Lila said:


> Alex, would it make you happy if she went through the effort of mimicing desire without actually _feeling_ desire? In other words, could you accept that even though she doesn't necessarily desire it, she's willing to go through the motions for your benefit?
> 
> There is no wrong or right answer. Some men interpret the effort to please as love. Some men will be hurt by anything less than genuine desire.
> 
> ...


I agree with Lila, although it stings to see the word "mimic." She enjoys sex, so she doesn't have to mimic that. She just doesn't initiate sex or desire him after sex is over(?). 

It's like eating healthy and exercising each day you know? If someone mimics a healthy person, even if they've always hated eating healthy and taking care of themselves, when they see the improvements, they can turn into hardcore fitness freaks. Eventually, mimicking or not, they'll become a real healthy person.

Your wife will become a real wife. If she has to "mimic" the role of a real wife that cares about your feeling wanted and taking care of your needs, at least she is trying. Totally ignoring your needs, is neglect. For my wife, if that's what she did, decided it was time to "mimic" a real wife, the routine and active role of taking care of my needs, turned into her thinking positively about how happy it made me. It also made her feel really good about herself. This eventually led to her enjoying intimacy as much if not more than me.

To be fair, when I married her, I had to mimic being a real man, a real husband, and a person that chose from being totally self centered sitting around LOVING being in my boxers eating Cheetos and playing video games, to a husband that takes care of his responsibilities and makes my wife happy as much as I can. I wouldn't call being married and learning to be unselfish as mimicking a person that cares about others, but I still agree with the concept. It's discussion worthy.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

With my kids, I try to mimic my father. I can never be as good as him in my eyes, but I try to mimic him because he made me feel so special as a kid. Is that a bad thing? Will my kids realize one day that all their life their father just mimicked good parenting? Does that make me a fake father? Or should I just do what comes naturally and if I don't have the desire to parent them or tend to their needs, too bad. I don't have the desire to be a good dad. Which one is the right thing to do, which one is selfish?

That's the point.

I still agree with Lila, because technically she is right. However, that's life. We all had to change in the process from being single to being married. I have to mimic everything I've ever thought a good husband should do, that I had never done or cared about before. Does that mean I am a fake husband?

Marriage doesn't come natural, it's hard work. I always say, marriage is easy, but a good marriage isn't. However, the hard work pays off.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Lila said:


> Congratulations, yours is a success story in all ways. :smthumbup:
> 
> The technique you describe is the same used to create any good habit. If you do an activity long enough it'll eventually become a normal part of your routine.
> 
> Sadly, if Alex's wife is asexual, no amount of habit building/breaking is going to increase her sexual desire. She can go through the motions but the underlying desire will never be there.


I can't tell if that was sarcasm, but you're right so it wouldn't matter. 

I guess my problem is with the idea of again, blurring the lines of her being asexual and desiring sex, with the idea of her desiring to make him happy. Or having a desire to be a good wife. Or having a desire to make him feel wanted. Or having a desire to make him not post on message boards about all the reasons he will never feel wanted. She already enjoys sex, so this is something he doesn't have to worry about. No amount of routine will ever break her of the habit of thinking about sex, or desiring sex. I get it. He doesn't want her to think about sex, he wants her to think about him.

That's the good habit she needs to create. I have never suggested she could desire sex if she was truly asexual. However, as of now she is self diagnosed because she is trying to answer questions about why she doesn't initiate or desire sex. And maybe I am a success story (but it's still constant hard work), but my wife, who acted a lot like the OP's wife, did find her desire.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Lila said:


> Sadly, if Alex's wife is asexual, no amount of habit building/breaking is going to increase her sexual desire. She can go through the motions but the underlying desire will never be there.


I'm okay with that, because the desire to take care of my needs WILL be there. Right now, they aren't. She can't wrap her head around it, which IS selfish.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Coldie said:


> I can't tell if that was sarcasm, but you're right so it wouldn't matter.
> 
> I guess my problem is with the idea of again, blurring the lines of her being asexual and desiring sex, with the idea of her desiring to make him happy. Or having a desire to be a good wife. Or having a desire to make him feel wanted. Or having a desire to make him not post on message boards about all the reasons he will never feel wanted. She already enjoys sex, so this is something he doesn't have to worry about. No amount of routine will ever break her of the habit of thinking about sex, or desiring sex. I get it. * He doesn't want her to think about sex, he wants her to think about him.*
> 
> That's the good habit she needs to create. I have never suggested she could desire sex if she was truly asexual. However, as of now she is self diagnosed because she is trying to answer questions about why she doesn't initiate or desire sex. And maybe I am a success story (but it's still constant hard work), but my wife, who acted a lot like the OP's wife, did find her desire.


You've gone from seeming like you didn't understand a word I was saying to summing it up absolutely perfectly, and I have no idea how that happened, but thank you.

The bolded, italicized, underline text above is all of it, in a nutshell.


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

So what's your course of action?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Well, I've put my foot down, and we'll see how well that goes over.

We did have a good, long talk the other day about EXACTLY how I feel (much of it thanks to some posts here) and expressed that it's pure selfishness on her part that she doesn't/won't make the effort to meet my needs.

Considering that she, and her happiness, is a priority to me and I do what I can within reasonable expectations to meet her needs, I expect the same in return.

I have obviously told her this in the past, using different wording I suppose, but this time was much more in the vein of "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore". Getting across to her that it is NOT about sex is the difficult thing. Again, she does not equate sex and love and meeting needs and she knows I understand that, and that it will never change in her brain. It's getting her to understand that *I* do (as do just about everybody else) and she can no longer go about her life in that world. It is a behavioral change, not a fundamental one. She needs to look at it from a different perspective, not one of simply physical pleasure for my sake.

As she has hinted about in the past, and more or less confirmed during that talk, just about every relationship she has had in the past have had issues revolving around sex. A couple basically ended because of them, some were just present and not the number one reason for not working. But generally any relationship that was not casual had issues about sex included.

She finally admits there has been a pattern there. Two excellent examples of this were one relationship that she ended because she felt he only wanted her for sex. (ie. grossly mismatched drives, I guess, and HER needs weren't being met... ironic) and another in which there were other problems, but he eventually accused her of cheating on him because sex was almost non-existent, and he ended up going outside of their relationship to get his needs met.

So here she is again, confronted with similar issues and doing the same damn thing she's always done - not meeting her partners needs in that regard because they don't register with her as being that - HIS needs. When I put it to her that way, she didn't disagree. I hope it was an epiphany. Quit making the same damn mistakes, because repeating this pattern obviously hasn't worked out so well previously. Duh.

And I say "duh", because it IS that simple. However, she has the personality type to not dwell on things. Therefore when a relationship ended, she did not sit down and reflect on WHY it did not work, she simply moved on. This is generally how she deals with most things. Happy-go-lucky, I guess. Her mentality has always been to be who she is, and if you don't accept it, too bad. This is fine in everyday life, but obviously within a relationship, it doesn't work. Resistant to change for the fear of compromising herself. A real power thing, imo. Takes after her mother...

But she is slowly starting to realize (I hope) that this does not work IRL, especially in marriage. There are TWO people, not just one, and each person is different and expects different things. There is nothing wrong with meeting in the middle, or even giving up a little bit of yourself - provided your partner does, too, and it doesn't create an imbalance.

I got a blowjob Saturday night while she took care of herself with a toy (it's that time of the month) and I did not initiate. So... hooray?

It's seeing if it sticks that's the headache for me now. It's hard for me to be optimistic about it, but it's a start. This is not the first time I've expressed myself to her and have seen an uptick for a short time.

Constant reminding, I guess, until it sticks?


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

Feel for you, Alex. Somewhat the same boat as you, although mine had a drive early on, and now it's nonexistent. She looks on sex as work, and says (I think half-jokingly) that if I find someone to have sex with, she'd be OK with it so she doesn't have to deal with it. 

Keep us informed.


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## James2020 (Jun 4, 2014)

This is very interesting for me. On the one hand, I mean I guess there is progress. On the other hand, it doesn't quite make sense to me, so I am curious if it's just my understanding of it all.

So basically -- she is asexual and has no sexual attraction. Does not care for sex, never desires it, never initiates or wants it -- never has and never will. For her to do so, would likely take something like a calendar reminder in her phone and then it would be like taking out the trash. Once she's in the act, she seems to enjoy it physically but otherwise forgets about it immediately after and again would need some kind of reminder for her to act on and then initiate it, it will never be because she actually is wanting it or looking forward to it.

If my statement above is correct, then this definitely raises a few things that are just confusing:

1. If she enjoys it physically, it seems rather out of place that she would never think about it? Especially if it's good, I mean if you enjoy eating a good burger you will likely think about that burger once in a while and go back to that place to eat it again. So if there is physical pleasure, it in fact has nothing to do with sexual attraction and it would still make sense for her to desire that physical pleasure again later on. Not because it's sex, but just because it feels good... like jumping in a cold/hot pool feels good once in a while.

2. Your new arrangement, seems to not have really fixed the situation. She is asexual, she will never have sexual attraction and the sex will always be an act done to please YOU, and she will get some physical benefit from it but like you said she never looks forward to it so it's essentially a forced situation each time. All you have done now, is you have made her more aware that she just has to essentially fake/pretend to like it or that it simply doesn't matter that she likes it and you just want it and you want her to initiate it. I don't really understand if that's a solution of any sort? To put it on a different realm, say it turned out she was a lesbian instead of asexual, but for whatever reason you chose to stay together. The parameters would remain the same, she enjoys the Os from sex but obviously doesn't look forward to it or desire it. Now put into work the solution you described above... doesn't it just seem out of place, that she is now being forced to pretend she's into it and force herself to initiate it and so on?

So the above things, just don't quite add up to me. I think the big thing about it to, is that she likely never actually realized she was asexual or she was unable to really figure out what it was about her that made sex not something she thinks about. Now that there is something more defined about it, well she knows but it doesn't change how she feels yet she is kind of forced to feel a different way because of a commitment she made in the past that obviously was done with her being misinformed about her sexuality (and you as well of course). 

SO (sorry long reply) what I am really getting at here is this...

1. I have some suspicion that she isn't truly actually asexual, but that maybe her sex drive has decreased or something has happened that she feels like she might be... but actually she isn't, but at the moment it's a label that seems to make sense so she has accepted it.

2. If she really IS asexual, then any solution you propose doesn't really make sense. You are asking someone who doesn't have sexual attraction, to somehow force/create/fake sexual attraction for your benefit -- that's not really a solution, I feel that you want real sexual attraction and since she's asexual, that will legitimately absolutely never happen. 

3. The only other thing I can think of, is probably a mix of the two. So she is asexual, but you are feeling OK to settle with forced/fake sexual attraction for the sake of keeping the marriage together and staying together and you will ultimately sacrifice that part of your relationship because the other benefits of the relationship outweigh this negative thing.

I'm not trying to put down your situation or progress, I think as you've seen in my other posts I feel I may be in a somewhat similar situation at least to some degree. But as I am looking over my situation and yours, I'm trying to give you some different perspective into what you may feel is a solution because perhaps you are after the wrong thing?

Anyhow... food for thought, and good luck


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## Big Tree (Jul 25, 2014)

For my wife and I...it is #3 at the bottom. She calendars. I feel more like friends with benefits. I am OK with this. Any resentment I had evaporated with understanding why she is the way she is.

The balance of our relationship remains decidedly loving and positive.


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## James2020 (Jun 4, 2014)

Big Tree said:


> For my wife and I...it is #3 at the bottom. She calendars. I feel more like friends with benefits. I am OK with this. Any resentment I had evaporated with understanding why she is the way she is.
> 
> The balance of our relationship remains decidedly loving and positive.


I'm currently in that boat as well. I still can't figure out if she is asexual or has no attraction for some other reason, but I have tried talking and sorting it out and the best progress I can get is duty sex 3x a week. For the time being, I am taking it but I think my resentment is building... it seems month after month, I am longing more and more for sex with mutual desire and attraction. Maybe we will get there, maybe we won't. Time will only tell if our current solution will keep me satisfied or if I will eventually break.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

James2020 said:


> I'm currently in that boat as well. I still can't figure out if she is asexual or has no attraction for some other reason, but I have tried talking and sorting it out and the best progress I can get is duty sex 3x a week. For the time being, I am taking it but I think my resentment is building... it seems month after month, I am longing more and more for sex with mutual desire and attraction. Maybe we will get there, maybe we won't. Time will only tell if our current solution will keep me satisfied or if I will eventually break.


3 x a week is pretty good, even if it's calendared.

However, I think I can genuinely say that part of why you are not happy with this arrangement IS that it is calendared, and it may not be swinging from the vines monkey sex.

In my case, there is no calendar. It happens when it happens, usually once a week, sometimes more, sometimes less. Averages out to 2-4 (maybe 5 or 6) times a month.

But it IS swinging from the vines monkey sex. You can't fake that. She IS into it, immensely. She is into ME. Trust me, you can't fake THAT, either.

She won't initiate actual sex, but once we're having sex, she initiates just about everything - position changes, she'll kiss me passionately, bite my lip, tell me what she wants me to do to her (often explicitly) moan, scream, grunt and groan, you name it. As I've said before, she O's multiple times per session, usually 3-4. Our record is 7. She O's from ANY kind of stimulation, including anal. She gives the most amazing and passionate oral.

It's insane, which is exactly why I don't get it. If she wasn't asexual, I'm convinced she'd be a nympho.

But when we're done, it's on to something else, just like that.

She thoroughly (and I mean thoroughly) enjoys the physical aspect of it. She just doesn't think of it - which is why the asexual label very accurately describes her. She is not the only asexual out there capable of having mind-blowing sex. It's just that they can completely live without it the rest of their lives. It's not thought about before OR after it occurs, for whatever reason (chemical imbalance? synapses not firing in the right places? some sort of brain disconnect? who knows...)

So why do I continue? Because it's not sexual desire I need to feel for me to feel loved. It would be nice, but it's not worth dissolving an otherwise loving, caring and strong relationship.

Besides, when we're in the act, the desire is there. Do I wish she would think about me that way when we're not having sex? Of course, but it won't happen because she's not wired that way.

What I DO need is for her to think of my intimate needs without me having to remind her. The thoughtfulness and knowledge that she has a desire to take care of my needs is what's missing.

As for the asexuality part, I agree, it's difficult to believe at times, and my mind tends to go to those places, too. But the fact is (providing she's telling me the truth, which I have no reason to believe she isn't - I trust her) is that she says she has never felt this type of desire for anyone. It's not just me.

I knew of a good deal of her past history, especially with her LTR's over the years. I knew of this stuff before she even heard the term "asexual". It adds up. Without going into details, it just adds up. It's not just me, that I know.


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## James2020 (Jun 4, 2014)

alexm said:


> 3 x a week is pretty good, even if it's calendared.
> 
> However, I think I can genuinely say that part of why you are not happy with this arrangement IS that it is calendared, and it may not be swinging from the vines monkey sex.
> 
> ...


I see what you mean now, that's definitely a very unique situation but it's good to see you were able to make progress to where things are getting better. If she's into you and wants to make changes to help when the situation then I think that is already great progress and can't expect too much from her either. It's something she cannot control so I think it's very good she's making the additional effort.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

alexm said:


> I have posted here many times about a lack of sex drive on her part, and no initiation to speak of...and she most definitely enjoys herself. She is multi orgasmic...


There is no such thing as a multi-orgasmic asexual person. If your wife were truly asexual then she would get no pleasure from sex. You seem to be dealing with something completely different.



> I can't grab her in the middle of the afternoon in the kitchen and kiss her passionately and squeeze her butt, because it's sexual and *it's like she gets scared*.


This could be a clue.



> She doesn't WANT to have sex, but does because she knows it's necessary. But once we get into it, you'd never think she's asexual and doesn't think about sex or NEED sex.


It appears that she does enjoy sex and enjoys it a lot. That wouldn't be asexual.



> Often, she will tell me she needs me inside her, or "do this, do that", whatever. When we have sex, she needs that O, then another one, and another one. On occasion, as we men hate to admit, I just can't perform 100% and I am more than happy to have enjoyed the experience without my own orgasm. *She hates this, and tries to get me to finish with oral or a HJ. She feels incomplete if I don't finish.*


This could also be a clue.



> I am having an extremely difficult time dealing with this. She's the most sexual asexual person on the planet, and I just... don't... get it...


That is understandable.



> I will never know what it's like to feel a woman physically desire me - outside of sex. During sex, she wants me, needs me, can't get enough of me. Beforehand - nothing.


I would say that she does desire you outside of sex but she doesn't act on it. In fact, I would say that she puts some effort into repressing it.

I might have some suggestions but I'm not sure if you are seeking advice or just sympathy.


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

alexm said:


> I hope it was an epiphany. Quit making the same damn mistakes, because repeating this pattern obviously hasn't worked out so well previously. Duh.


So you feel that it's obvious that she should change her behavior if something isn't working.



> It's seeing if it sticks that's the headache for me now. It's hard for me to be optimistic about it, but it's a start. This is not the first time I've expressed myself to her and have seen an uptick for a short time.
> 
> Constant reminding, I guess, until it sticks?


But it doesn't seem to be as obvious when you view yourself. You seem to feel that you should keep doing the same thing over and over and just hope that there will be improvement. That does seem to be a contradiction.


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

alexm said:


> We did have a good, long talk the other day about EXACTLY how I feel (much of it thanks to some posts here) and expressed that it's pure selfishness on her part that she doesn't/won't make the effort to meet my needs.


It looks to me like you've separated the wheat from the chaff and kept the chaff.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,
M2 very, very rarely feels spontaneously horny/aroused. I won't say never, I'll just say - a few times a year. 

That said: M2 has a strong intimacy drive. She loves being physically, emotionally meshed with me. That's why we don't actually use the word sex, instead we refer to connecting. 

It's also true that M2 could get her intimacy needs mostly met via non sexual affection. Luckily she has a strong desire to please, to be a good/great wife. 

So - here's the thing. I generally get the impression that your wife isn't all that concerned about your wants/needs. 

During the pre marital bonding phase she was having sex with you twice a week. Now she's quote comfortable with twice a month. That isn't much of a compromise. 

You know Alex, I'm mostly beta - proud of it. M2 is definitely more alpha than I am - overall. And that works for US. 

The thing is, I'm only alpha as needed. But I'm good at it. Good at conflict. I'm not referring to what men typically picture when they think of conflict. I'm talking marital conflict, which is a whole different skill set. 

Based on your posts, you may well be plenty alpha in the context of male/male conflict. But not in the context of marital conflict. 

The real issue here isn't about terminology. It's about your wife's seemingly low desire to please. It sounds like she has deprioritized you. And it seemed that way to me from your earliest posts. 

I seriously doubt that you would treat any of her core needs with so little regard. 

You were raised very well. Your manners are excellent and you're by nature a considerate person. But I actually believe that your upbringing and mindset have both contributed to you being deprioritized. 




alexm said:


> ---snip---
> 
> 
> That's all well and good, but you are describing somebody who has had desire in the past, and now they don't (or are lazy, or selfish, or whatever other pejorative words you are using).
> ...


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

scientia said:


> There is no such thing as a multi-orgasmic asexual person. If your wife were truly asexual then she would get no pleasure from sex. You seem to be dealing with something completely different.
> 
> 
> This could be a clue.
> ...


From the Aven website definition of the term:

"The definition of asexuality is "someone who does not experience sexual *attraction*."

"Asexuals may regard other people as aesthetically attractive without feeling sexual attraction to them. Some asexual people also experience the desire of being affectionate to other people without it being sexual. If you do not experience sexual attraction, you might identify as asexual."

"Furthermore, an asexual person can want or choose to engage in sex for several reasons. Some asexual people in relationships might choose or even want to have sex with their partner as a way of showing affection, *and they might even enjoy it*. Others may want to have sex in order to have children, or to satisfy a curiosity, or for other reasons."


Scientia, the very basest definition of the word "asexual" is someone who does not feel -sexual- attraction to other people. That is it, that is all. Everything else can, and does "work" for them. As we all probably know from our own experiences, people can have sex without being attracted to someone. And we can enjoy it, too.

Not all asexuals avoid sex. Some do. Some just have no desire whatsoever and some find it repulsive. Some are fully capable of engaging in the physical aspect of it AND enjoying it.

The common theme, no matter where they fall on the spectrum, is not having sexual attraction to a person, man or woman, and therefore not thinking about sex.

True story: I don't think about golf. When one of my buddies asks me if I want to go golfing, I might say yes, I might say no. Depends if there's something better to do. Depends how tired I am. Depends on if I can make the time to play.

But every time I've gone golfing in my life, I have a blast (and I'm not half bad!). And then I don't think about golf again until the next time somebody asks me. No matter how much fun I have from playing a round of golf, I don't desire to play again. I also don't say "I'm never playing again". Golf, as a whole, is just not on my radar.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Alex,
> M2 very, very rarely feels spontaneously horny/aroused. I won't say never, I'll just say - a few times a year.
> 
> That said: M2 has a strong intimacy drive. She loves being physically, emotionally meshed with me. That's why we don't actually use the word sex, instead we refer to connecting.
> ...


This is a good reply. 

Alex, hopefully you figure out the puzzle.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Your chasing a red herring with this asexual thing.

You seem to be one of those people that needs to ruin their marriage at all costs.

What if you wife said to you "Alex, you are a great husband. We live very comfortably. I have everything I need. But I just cannot feel loved unless you make $1M a year. It's just how I am". That's what you are doing to her.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

MEM11363 said:


> Alex,
> M2 very, very rarely feels spontaneously horny/aroused. I won't say never, I'll just say - a few times a year.
> 
> That said: M2 has a strong intimacy drive. She loves being physically, emotionally meshed with me. That's why we don't actually use the word sex, instead we refer to connecting.
> ...


Totally agree with everything you've said (and also, thank you)

Absolutely the issue lies with her and her inability/unwillingness to please. That IS the problem, no doubt in my mind.

But it's compounded by the fact that she's identified as asexual - whether some posters here believe it's a thing or not, or if they think my wife is or isn't. All signs point to it, the checklist is complete, and she believes it describes her accurately.

We have more or less dealt with that label, because there IS sex, and it is good sex, to boot. The asexuality portion of it is almost a moot point - it has never really been an issue, even if this label is new to both of us. In fact, it's almost a relief to both of us that there is something out there to explain her lack of sexual feelings.

The main issue is, and always has been, the unwillingness to meet my needs in that regard. With her identifying as asexual, it actual pinpoints the real issue. It is difficult for her to understand WHY it's important to me (or anybody else, really), despite her listening to me explain why it is. And THAT'S the issue - not taking it seriously enough, I suppose, to even humor me in that regard.

She doesn't brush it off or anything, she hears what I say, and tries to understand, but it's clear that she doesn't put a priority on it at all. THAT is what's hurtful.

I want to say she's selfish - and really, she is - but I find that hurtful. I have mentioned that to her before, and she doesn't react with horror or anything. I don't think she's ever been called selfish before. She's good at sharing things, she does think of others, all of that. But she can most definitely think of herself first at times.

A good example is that after work she'll stop in and get a coffee on the way home - for her only. She knows I'm home, but doesn't always think to get me one. I've said to her in the past "hey, thanks for the coffee..." and now she remembers to bring me one, too... usually.

I don't know, it's difficult to explain without sounding like I am defending her actions. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt a lot of the time, and that's good AND bad. People are made the way they are by their environment, upbringing and life history.

I think her upbringing had a lot to do with the "me first" attitude. Single (and very independent) mother with two older siblings. She had to fend for herself a lot of the time. Her mother married young and had 3 children, then divorced while still young. She loved the kids, but didn't let them get in the way of living her life. My wife ended up learning to be very independent from the get-go.

Couple that with several bad experiences in the dating world, in which her partners were just as independent, and she still had to fend for herself to get what she wanted or needed out of life.

She is also one of very very few female employees in her extremely male-dominated field, as in there's probably less than 5 who do what she does across the country, if that. She's only heard of one other, and she didn't last long.

I think there's great inner conflict within her - she desires somebody to share her life with and be married to, but she still feels as though she has to fend for herself at all times. She's been taught, and trained, to survive on her own, and she doesn't quite know HOW to not put herself ahead of others.

The thing is, she doesn't speak selfishly. She's no princess, and there's no expectations that others, including me, must cater to her needs. It's an independent selfishness. Everything she gets in life, she gets herself, and she has no problem with that.

That creates an interesting dynamic within a marriage, to say the least. We DO things together, we share experiences, and she acknowledges that things we do, memories we make, are US, not just her. But day-to-day things she can accomplish on her own, no help or assistance required. She doesn't automatically think that I would enjoy a coffee when she gets one, for example. SHE wouldn't be upset in the slightest if I came home with a coffee for me without getting one for her. She'd just take a sip of mine.

And she expects the same attitude from me. I am independent, too, but not to the degree that she is.

Lastly, I don't think her past experiences (especially with LTRs) have been with men who deliver for her, in terms of thinking of her first, meeting her needs, etc. Therefore, that's all she knows and that's what she expects. With those guys, sex was an issue, too. But when they complained, all she had to do was mention that they aren't giving her much attention, either. 

Her last LTR before me, for example, she would come home from work every day and he was on the couch, socks on the floor, beer in hand, and would ask "what's for dinner?". All the while, she had put in 8 hours just like him AND picked up the kids from school or daycare. IF he made dinner, it was something quick and easy. Then when the kids were in bed, he'd be all over her, meanwhile she's exhausted, having been up early, brought the kids to school or daycare, worked 8 hours, picked up the kids, made dinner, put the kids to bed, etc. Then he'd want sex. The baby's crying at 3am? He slept through it EVERY time. So she has a 24 hour job AND was expected to care of his needs on top of that. Not happening.

She told me that she had sex with him once in a period of about a year, and it was at the end of their relationship. So they basically went an entire calendar year of no sex. Mostly because she was doing all the work, but also because (in her words) he was a 2-pump chump... lol) At least she has some desire to not say no to me.

With me, it's different. This is the first time she's had equality around the house. In fact, it's probably more swayed in her favor, as I work from home most of the time and therefore have the time in the day to get the kids, make dinner, do some cleaning, etc. I'm not super-husband or anything, but it's more than she's ever been used to.

Therefore she can't use the excuse of me not meeting her needs when I require it. She can't wrap her head around to do so, though, it's all she knows. It's frustrating.


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## Big Tree (Jul 25, 2014)

Hi Alex,

Long post above. You just ticked off several autistic traits while describing your wife. I know you already dismissed this possibility already. Here are the biggies that I see...

1. Asexuality
2. Lack of empathy
3. Mind Blindness
4. Abundance of self focus (independent selfishness)
5. Female more comfortable around males
6. Attaches to caregivers (other focused people...you)

Let me ask some questions...

1. Does she have sensory issues? Enhanced senses of touch, taste, hearing, smell, etc. Hate tags in clothes? Shoes too tight? Desire comfortable fabrics most of the time?
2. Does she read non-verbal communication well? Facial expressions, body language, tone of voice?
3. Can she identify what she is feeling in real time? Can she identify what you are feeling in real time?
4. Meltdowns? 

I'm very sorry if I appear to be a hammer in search of a nail. This just sets off my radar. Hope you understand.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,
This post is an excellent example of understanding and empathy. 

BTW - M2 can at times be ummm - tenacious about certain things.

When that happens, I shift from a mostly word based communication mode to a mostly non verbal communication mode. It's a valuable skill. 





alexm said:


> Totally agree with everything you've said (and also, thank you)
> 
> Absolutely the issue lies with her and her inability/unwillingness to please. That IS the problem, no doubt in my mind.
> 
> ...


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

@bigtree - yeah I asked the spectrum thing awhile back. Don't know if it was addressed. Certainly a case for Aspy?!?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Big Tree said:


> Hi Alex,
> 
> Long post above. You just ticked off several autistic traits while describing your wife. I know you already dismissed this possibility already. Here are the biggies that I see...
> 
> ...


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

alexm said:


> From the Aven website definition of the term:
> 
> "The definition of asexuality is "someone who does not experience sexual *attraction*."
> 
> ...


This is correct. I'm not sure what you are objecting to.



> Scientia, the very basest definition of the word "asexual" is someone who does not feel -sexual- attraction to other people. That is it, that is all. Everything else can, and does "work" for them.


No. You are trying to exclude the actual definition which is lack of sexual response, not merely lack of attraction. No one is attracted to everyone else so if you tried to define asexuality as only "lack of attraction" then everyone would be partly asexual. That would be a clinically nonsensical definition. Real psychology (as opposed to pop-psychology) avoids unworkable terms.

I believe what you said was that she "gets into it" and that she is "multi-orgasmic". If she is able to reach orgasm during sex with you then claiming that she is asexual is nonsense.

I don't want to make this too complicated but drugs like Viagra don't increase sexual desire; they only increase arousal response. Sexual response covers both desire and arousal. So, if someone is able to be aroused but has no sexual response then that would be due to a lack of desire. This is easy to tell with men because men have erections while they sleep. It is harder to confirm with women. In some cases, a lack of desire is due to hormone levels but this is most frequently seen after pregnancy or after menopause. At any rate, you cannot claim that someone with desire and the ability to be aroused is asexual; those things by definition are sexual response.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

scientia said:


> This is correct. I'm not sure what you are objecting to..


This:



scientia said:


> _There is no such thing as a multi-orgasmic asexual person. If your wife were truly asexual then she would get no pleasure from sex. You seem to be dealing with something completely different_..


This is not the case. Some asexuals DO derive pleasure from sex. However, as said before, they share one singular trait: they do not desire it, think about it, fantasize about it, etc. However, some do NOT derive any pleasure from sex, and some are even repulsed by it. There is a whole spectrum beyond the not feeling any desire to have sex.

My wife does not feel the desire to have sex with me, nor with anyone else. She does not feel sexually attracted to me, or to anyone else, nor has she ever (her words).

This does not mean she is not capable of HAVING sex, nor ENJOYING sex. Sex to her, and others like her, is purely physiological. It is the attraction element that is not there. There is no desire to HAVE sex, other than, in her case, she knows it is something important to me. She is lucky in that she is able to enjoy it, as well.



scientia said:


> No. You are trying to exclude the actual definition which is lack of sexual response, not merely lack of attraction. No one is attracted to everyone else so if you tried to define asexuality as only "lack of attraction" then everyone would be partly asexual. That would be a clinically nonsensical definition. Real psychology (as opposed to pop-psychology) avoids unworkable terms.


I hate to play this card, but show me where the definition of asexual says it is purely about response and not desire.



scientia said:


> I believe what you said was that she "gets into it" and that she is "multi-orgasmic". If she is able to reach orgasm during sex with you then claiming that she is asexual is nonsense.


And why couldn't she? She has no physiological issues. Everything works as it should, and the appropriate responses work with stimulation.



scientia said:


> I don't want to make this too complicated but drugs like Viagra don't increase sexual desire; they only increase arousal response. Sexual response covers both desire and arousal. So, if someone is able to be aroused but has no sexual response then that would be due to a lack of desire. This is easy to tell with men because men have erections while they sleep. It is harder to confirm with women. In some cases, a lack of desire is due to hormone levels but this is most frequently seen after pregnancy or after menopause. At any rate, you cannot claim that someone with desire and the ability to be aroused is asexual; those things by definition are sexual response.


People take drugs like Viagra because they have the desire to have sex, but the physical side of things are not working.

Asexuals have the opposite problem - physically, everything works, but the desire is not there. They can become sexually aroused and yes, even reach orgasm! But they don't feel the desire or see the same need that we do, and otherwise can take or leave sex.

I know it's hard to understand (even for me) but it's there and it's real.

Listen, I liken this to how I feel about same-sex relationships. I am straight, and have no DESIRE to be sexual with another man, and have never once thought about it, or fantasized about it.

However I am about as far away from homophobic as a straight man can be.

It has occurred to me recently (while trying to make sense of this whole subject) that I am not opposed, or repulsed by the notion of having sex with another man. Not only that, but I may even enjoy it, at least physically.

Do I, or would I ever seek it out? No, because I know that I can only be emotionally and romantically attached to women - which is a big part of desire and arousal. Although I am certain I could have physical stimulation with a man, there is no desire there to do so because my brain isn't wired that way. That does not at all mean that I couldn't be physically stimulated in such a scenario. All my parts work as they should. Stimulation is stimulation, once you remove the mental aspects of something.

And that is where we end up: asexuals who are capable of enjoying sex have no mental hangups about it - it is physical only.

For some (most) straight men, the thought of having physical relations with another man is repulsive to them, whether homophobic or not. Remove that mental stigma and treat it purely as physical stimulation, and what do you have? The ability to enjoy it for what it is, regardless of emotional/romantic attachment.

In theory, this does not even necessarily mean one is bisexual, as there is no emotional or romantic desires behind seeking sexual stimulation. If you see it, and treat it as purely physical and there's no actual attraction to the person/watermelon/blow up doll/apple pie, then that's all it is.

It's unbelievably simple and complicated at the same time.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,
The gift thing - watch how this works.

In the moment: thank you for the gift, warm smile 

About an hour later. 

I know your intentions were good, but that isn't a gift I would have bought myself. Did you keep the receipt? If not, did you buy it with a credit card? 

This type response isn't unkind, it's honest. If she actually feels bad, she can ask what you really want, and go buy that with the refund from the first purchase. 






alexm said:


> This:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Big Tree (Jul 25, 2014)

My wife has the same issue with gift giving. She wants to be thoughtful but she lacks the empathy it requires.

This was a very helpful tool for my wife and I: Aspie-quiz


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

alexm said:


> This is not the case. Some asexuals DO derive pleasure from sex.


You are grouping together two completely different things. Sexual response is not the same as enjoying sexually related activity. This should be obvious but perhaps it isn't. There are an unlimited number of activities that two people could engage in and enjoy that would not include sexual response. An asexual person could go through the motions of sexual intercourse and enjoy it but still have no sexual response whatsoever. Enjoyment and arousal are not the same thing.



> However, as said before, they share one singular trait: they do not desire it, think about it, fantasize about it, etc.


That is accurate.



> My wife does not feel the desire to have sex with me, nor with anyone else. She does not feel sexually attracted to me, or to anyone else, nor has she ever (her words).


And, if this is true then you would be unable to arouse her. Is this the case?



> This does not mean she is not capable of HAVING sex, nor ENJOYING sex.


I've already talked about this above. Stop using the word "enjoy" and use more accurate terms like arousal and orgasm.



> Sex to her, and others like her, is purely physiological.


This is jargon; it has no actual meaning.



> It is the attraction element that is not there.


I've covered this as well. Attraction has nothing to do with being asexual and I've explained why. If you are going to make up terms at least try to explain why they would be useful.



> I hate to play this card, but show me where the definition of asexual says it is purely about response and not desire.


As I've already explained, desire is part of sexual response. So, how could define something as being without one of its parts? I'm sorry if this is confusing for you.

Attraction is opportunity for sexual response. It's like saying I'd like a hamburger but the nearest restaurant is 100 miles away. Response requires opportunity.

Sexual response is desire which is a brain function and arousal response which is physical. You can measure arousal response directly using a blood-flow meter inside a woman's vagina and by measuring a man's erection. Again, Viagra can help if desire is present but arousal response is not. There are other cases where arousal response is normal but desire is absent. 



> And why couldn't she? She has no physiological issues. Everything works as it should, and the appropriate responses work with stimulation.


What you are saying is not that simple. For example, if my testicles were removed (if say I had testicular cancer) then my hormone levels would drop and my arousal response would shut down even though I would be otherwise fine physically.

You are going to have to be more precise with your language. If your wife can be aroused by you then she is not asexual. This is true regardless of what you've read on some website.



> Asexuals have the opposite problem - physically, everything works, but the desire is not there. They can become sexually aroused and yes, even reach orgasm! But they don't feel the desire or see the same need that we do, and otherwise can take or leave sex.
> 
> I know it's hard to understand (even for me) but it's there and it's real.
> 
> ...


Well, you have two possibilities. If your claims about asexuality are true then there was no reason to create this thread since by your own definition there is nothing you can do. If you are being honest then you created this thread entirely for sympathy. And, there is no reason to discuss it further. Or, there is more to it than that and you are hoping for some kind of help. Which is it?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

alexm said:


> And she expects the same attitude from me. I am independent, too, but not to the degree that she is.


Most people default to the assumption that others behave like they do. So if a person is honest, they default to others being honest.

Based on your description, your wife's independence means that she is in charge of handling her needs and does not expect anyone else to do it for her. She assumes that you think in a similar manner. So it never occurs to her that she should do something for you. 

Unfortunately, that will be a difficult habit to change.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Most people default to the assumption that others behave like they do. So if a person is honest, they default to others being honest.
> 
> Based on your description, your wife's independence means that she is in charge of handling her needs and does not expect anyone else to do it for her. She assumes that you think in a similar manner. So it never occurs to her that she should do something for you.
> 
> Unfortunately, that will be a difficult habit to change.


Yep, totally agree. I've brought this very subject up to her and that perhaps that mindset should change, now that we're a couple. She doesn't disagree.

She has/had issues with self-worth, and found it difficult at first to accept things from me. She still is resistant to things like help when she needs it.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

scientia said:


> You are grouping together two completely different things. Sexual response is not the same as enjoying sexually related activity. This should be obvious but perhaps it isn't. There are an unlimited number of activities that two people could engage in and enjoy that would not include sexual response. An asexual person could go through the motions of sexual intercourse and enjoy it but still have no sexual response whatsoever. Enjoyment and arousal are not the same thing.
> 
> 
> That is accurate.
> ...


I don't know how to respond to this, I really don't 

I'm going by 2 things here - what my wife has told me, and what I have observed. I knew and dated her when she was 14-17, and we reconnected when she was early 30's. We have been together for 6 years now (9 if you include our teen years).

I'm not saying your information or your opinion is wrong, what I am saying is that all signs point to this, and only this, in terms of how my wife feels, acts, and has always done so.

She has said she has felt this way as long as she can remember, including when we dated in high school (each others firsts, by the way).

She has never, ever felt any sexual desire, "horniness" or sexual/physical attraction to anyone, ever - prior to the act of sex. Once engaged in sex, it is there. Perhaps it is a learned response to the situation, perhaps it is genuine.

You have your opinion that asexuals simply can not enjoy sex or be orgasmic, and if they do, then they are not asexual. I disagree. SOME do not have the capacity to do so, SOME do. There's very little to argue here. My wife is not the only one.

Again, it is the desire BEFORE the act that is missing. The desire to actually DO the act is not there. But once engaged, the body reacts positively. The body.


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## Big Tree (Jul 25, 2014)

alexm said:


> I don't know how to respond to this, I really don't
> 
> I'm going by 2 things here - what my wife has told me, and what I have observed. I knew and dated her when she was 14-17, and we reconnected when she was early 30's. We have been together for 6 years now (9 if you include our teen years).
> 
> ...



I am with you Alexm. I understand what you mean exactly. I experience what you experience.

I remember thinking to myself, "If she were blind...would I be pissed or disappointed that she couldn't see me? Would I want to move on and find a sighted woman? Or, would I accept her and find ways to work around something she could not control or fix."

I decided to accept it. We work around frequency and initiation issues by using a calendar. It is working for us.


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

alexm said:


> Again, it is the desire BEFORE the act that is missing. The desire to actually DO the act is not there. But once engaged, the body reacts positively. The body.


If you are asking for advice, I can try to help.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

alexm said:


> Yep, totally agree. I've brought this very subject up to her and that perhaps that mindset should change, now that we're a couple. She doesn't disagree.
> 
> She has/had issues with self-worth, and found it difficult at first to accept things from me. She still is resistant to things like help when she needs it.


Rereading what I posted, I realize it was incomplete. The first part still stands, but its only part of the two-prong issue. The second prong being her not viewing sex as a need. 

This means that even if you get her to understand that others are not like her, and that having others meet a person's needs is acceptable, you are only half way there. Because she will not naturally look at sex as a need (as most other folks will). So she needs to reorient herself so that she first thinks about providing for the needs of others and second thinks about sex as a need that she should provide to you.

This doubles the work that you will need to do. I note this not to discourage you, but to help you be realistic about what you have in front of you.


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## Big Tree (Jul 25, 2014)

Great point.

You are an empathetic guy. You can imagine how your wife feels. Your wife agrees to have sex with you despite a lack of desire to do so. Likely, she is motivated to have sex with you in order to maintain her relationship with you. Clearly, she values her relationship with you A TON. That is great!

She lacks desire and lacks the empathy to intuitively understand your need to feel desired. Both of you believe that these traits are the way she is and are not "fixable". So, you are going to have to be very blunt with her about your needs.

Practice here first. Tell us what you want. Be specific. For example, "I want my wife to initiate sex once a week." "I want my wife to tell me she wants me once a week." "I want my wife to wear lingerie once a week."


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Tall Average Guy said:


> This means that even if you get her to understand that others are not like her, and that having others meet a person's needs is acceptable, *you are only half way there.* Because she will not naturally look at sex as a need (as most other folks will). So she needs to reorient herself so that she first thinks about providing for the needs of others and second thinks about sex as a need that she should provide to you.


Nailed it.

I believe SHE is half way there, as well. She is, I believe, now understanding of the fact that people require needs to be met, and that she (as well as I) are the ones to provide it.

It's the actions that aren't there yet.

Interesting topic, this, and it's opening my eyes. And I genuinely apologize for rambling. I am not like this in real life!

But along those lines, she grew up poor with a single mother and 2 older brothers. The term "fend for yourself" was basically how she grew up. They had food, clothing and a roof over their heads, but it was day-to-day and you'd never know what the next month would bring. Therefore it truly was 'every person for themself' at times.

Her dad was very blue collar, and although was able to eke out a good living for himself, he didn't believe in spoiling the kids. He is of the old-school mentality of earning what you have.

So her two parents combined created, inadvertently, a "me first" attitude towards life. Everything my wife has, she earned and worked hard for. She wanted to get into her line of work (her dad was in the same industry for years) and it was, and still is, 99.9% male dominated. That did not stop her, and she's moved up the ranks over the years. Put up with all the BS and sexism and never once thought about quitting for something easier.

This is how she attacks life - her first. Her selfishness is not out of her believing she is more important than anything or anybody else, it is borne out of that "fend for yourself" mentality. She is tough, and she knows it, and expects everybody else to fend for themselves as well, me included. She has a tremendous fear of showing weakness, to the point that she'd rather burn bridges than bend to something she believe would cast her in a weak light. Our arguments can be very interesting, at times. But I know how she is, so I don't take it personally (most of the time). But apologize? That's a weakness! (one that she WILL do on occasion, mind you).

I have gotten through to her bit by bit over the years that that attitude doesn't work in a domestic partnership, let alone a romantic one. She is gradually starting to see the light. I'm just not sure, at times, that it can continue at this pace. At this rate, she'll be 75 before she fully evolves (bad choice of words?) into a capable marriage partner...!


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Big Tree said:


> Great point.
> 
> You are an empathetic guy. You can imagine how your wife feels. Your wife agrees to have sex with you despite a lack of desire to do so. Likely, she is motivated to have sex with you in order to maintain her relationship with you. Clearly, she values her relationship with you A TON. That is great!
> 
> ...


It's difficult to verbalize to her exactly what I want, because then it will turn into a scheduled thing that she "has to do", which is more or less where we're at now (minus the actual schedule, of course).

Generally speaking, I can live with the 2-4 times a month, but I am sick and tired of it being only me who brings it up or thinks of it. Which, TBH, is not always the case. If it's been a longish time, she WILL remember, but then it's along the lines of "hey, we haven't had sex in a while" or something to that effect. I guess she's thinking of me, but you know... 

It's like her gift-giving - it's important that she remember to buy something, but it's almost always a "I'm just going to go to the store the day before his birthday and I'll pick whatever jumps out at me", with no forethought or thinking of what I'd actually want, or need. I had to tell her straight up to stop buying me gift cards for xmas or birthdays because there's zero thought or effort involved in that kind of a gift. They ARE useful and I CAN get what I want, but I'd much rather my wife knew what I wanted or at least made an effort in gift selection. Same with the sex. At least she remembers, but it ends up being the gift card equivalent of sexual initiation.


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## YummyGirl (Jul 23, 2014)

alexm said:


> This is how she attacks life - her first. Her selfishness is not out of her believing she is more important than anything or anybody else, it is borne out of that "fend for yourself" mentality. She is tough, and she knows it, and expects everybody else to fend for themselves as well, me included. She has a tremendous fear of showing weakness, to the point that she'd rather burn bridges than bend to something she believe would cast her in a weak light. Our arguments can be very interesting, at times. But I know how she is, so I don't take it personally (most of the time). But apologize? That's a weakness! (one that she WILL do on occasion, mind you).
> 
> I have gotten through to her bit by bit over the years that that attitude doesn't work in a domestic partnership, let alone a romantic one. She is gradually starting to see the light.


My marital problem is quite different from yours, but I wanted to say--wow--you just described my husband to a tee!
It's very interesting how much our childhoods affect our future relationships. My husband has learned to apologize, but it takes some time, and he doesn't always mean it (and I don't accept his apology when it's not genuine). 
Thank you for sharing and best of luck to you.
~YG


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## Big Tree (Jul 25, 2014)

Alexm,

You are describing your feelings very well. You want your wife to be able to "read you". You want her to have an innate understanding of you and your needs...and to act on that understanding.

You have been focused on her actions. I want you to shift your focus to her ability to "read you". Can she?

"Theory of Mind" is what allows us to attribute beliefs and desires to ourselves and others. "Mind-blindness" is the lack of that ability. "Mind-blindness" could explain both her inability to feel desire in herself and her inability to empathize with you.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Alex, just a question somewhat off topic. Do you consider yourself an introvert?

Like with being asexual, there are various extremes. I'd also wonder if you consider your wife an introvert or extrovert? (I just don't just mean shy).

I am an introvert, my wife seems to be an extrovert (although she is somewhat quiet). I put a lot of meaning to sex, check the dates on all my drinks to see if expired, sometimes stay up in bed just looping things in my head, give more meaning to everyday stuff than most people, and extremely over analytical. My wife does none of that. This could also explain her just not thinking about sex, your needs, or really giving much thought to the things you can't stop thinking about.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Coldie said:


> Alex, just a question somewhat off topic. Do you consider yourself an introvert?
> 
> Like with being asexual, there are various extremes. I'd also wonder if you consider your wife an introvert or extrovert? (I just don't just mean shy).
> 
> I am an introvert, my wife seems to be an extrovert (although she is somewhat quiet). I put a lot of meaning to sex, check the dates on all my drinks to see if expired, sometimes stay up in bed just looping things in my head, give more meaning to everyday stuff than most people, and extremely over analytical. My wife does none of that. This could also explain her just not thinking about sex, your needs, or really giving much thought to the things you can't stop thinking about.


And that just described me (and her) to a T!

Definitely introverted, though not shy. And everything else you mentioned. Over analytical? You betcha!

As for her, right on. She can move on from things quickly and seemingly without thinking about it.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

I do not want to move this thread from asexual to extrovert / introvert, but my wife got her masters degree without breaking a sweat and is the smartest person I've ever known. With that being said, when it came to sex, my needs, and just everyday stuff I think about (simpleton), she didn't think about any of that. At night, she can lay her head on a pillow and fall asleep in seconds. For me, it takes 30 minutes to an hour, even in complete darkness. My mind races. I feel like this is why sex (and a lot of other things) took on such a higher meaning to me. It's also why I am on these forums, and she has browsed once and got bored.

For her, being asexual or just not thinking about sex, was the easy answer. If I thought it about it so much and I consider myself totally normal, then she must not be normal. Therefore, to her, she felt being asexual was the easiest answer and explained why she wasn't "normal" (which I am not). It made total sense and it diverted the blame to the issue of being asexual, rather than it being her not thinking about me. And for me, it gave me a reason to not be mad at her, but instead, try to solve the disorder of being asexual. Unfortunately, I couldn't solve that disorder no matter how much I thought it out.

What I did conclude, was what you have already said in this thread multiple times. I think you are on the right path, but I do not think that means it will necessarily work out just because you're on the right path. She still has to have a good heart and an open mind. However, it is easier to stand your ground when you've worked through all the reasoning. 

Anyway, I am throwing the idea of introvert around for you to think about. I don't feel I am over-sexual, I feel I am an introvert and because I over-analyse and think about the small things each day, doesn't mean I'm a sex addict. I just put meaning to everything and for me, feeling wanted is important. My brain doesn't just shut down and I automatically feel wanted just because my spouse exists. I need reaffirmation. Otherwise, my thoughts turn from positive and productive, to negative and destructive. 

True introverts are very hard to deal with, but I find we are the most loyal creatures on earth. If that makes sense.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Coldie said:


> I do not want to move this thread from asexual to extrovert / introvert, but my wife got her masters degree without breaking a sweat and is the smartest person I've ever known. With that being said, when it came to sex, my needs, and just everyday stuff I think about (simpleton), she didn't think about any of that. At night, she can lay her head on a pillow and fall asleep in seconds. For me, it takes 30 minutes to an hour, even in complete darkness. My mind races. I feel like this is why sex (and a lot of other things) took on such a higher meaning to me. It's also why I am on these forums, and she has browsed once and got bored.
> 
> For her, being asexual or just not thinking about sex, was the easy answer. If I thought it about it so much and I consider myself totally normal, then she must not be normal. Therefore, to her, she felt being asexual was the easiest answer and explained why she wasn't "normal" (which I am not). It made total sense and it diverted the blame to the issue of being asexual, rather than it being her not thinking about me. And for me, it gave me a reason to not be mad at her, but instead, try to solve the disorder of being asexual. Unfortunately, I couldn't solve that disorder no matter how much I thought it out.
> 
> ...


Holy ****, everything you just said was as though you were living in our house. It's scary.

I have never once thought about how these aspects of our differing personalities could be put this way, in regards to the intimacy issue. But there it is.

I hate being inside my head sometimes. I genuinely feel jealous that my wife can just switch off, or otherwise file things away. I can't. I need resolution to things. I also absolutely despise being so sensitive, especially when it comes to feelings.

And that makes so much sense with where she and I are at on a day-to-day basis.

Thank you!


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