# Ultimatum?



## Cuckcoo (Apr 23, 2013)

I guess I just gave my husband an ultimatum. Was I wrong?
I said, I want to ask you a question and I want you to listen and respond (blank stares are his norm). I see one of two ways for things to proceed. Do you want to be that happy couple I keep telling you I want us to be, that we see out and about places? Or do you want to no longer have this marriage? 

Now I realize that happy couple we see out and about are not perfect and probably have their problems but we are a mess and have been for years. I just can't continue without change. Every time I bring something up about wanting us to be happier or get along better he quickly responds with "that is all a lie", "they aren't happy", "you are happy but just don't feel it right now". The list of excuses for him to not change is endless but it's always my feelings that are in some way invalidated. No matter what the situation and what they pertain to. 

A little of the back story: He started his own business 11 years ago, after getting laid off. We had only been married for 1.5 yrs. I begged him not to, just yet. Take some business classes, take one of the 3 other jobs you have been offered, let's plan for this (first I heard he wanted his own business). I went to work the next morning, he went and got a business license. He basically has put nothing into our marriage and everything into his business ever since. All the promises of "it will get better" never come true. We have 3 kiddos so I have really stuck it out for them but now I'm afraid that it might be worse for them in the long run. Two completely disconnected parents. He works 14 hrs a day min/6 days a week (a lot of times he works until 2am or whatever and just strolls into bed, no phone call "I have to stay late" ever!). I've said numerous times, at least call. He can't eat dinner with the family because he has been on some kind of "diet" for the past year. Apparently not eating my cooking IS the diet. Junk food and beer at whatever hour of the night or early morning is ok though. I've asked for him to try being home for dinner just 2 nights during the week, at least for the kids. He can't commit to that. Only Sunday when he is already home. I'm a good cook too! 

I could go on almost endlessly here, I feel. I'm sorry. Was I wrong to basically give the ultimatum though? I feel like something has to happen, NOW! Not whenever it fits into his business plan.


----------



## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

I would take a step back and consider this:

- You are NOT happy.
- He is happy. If he wasn't happy he would have been motivated to change.

If you give him an ultimatum about "being a happy couple", he may be thinking - well, alright, but we are a happy couple. 

Instead of an ultimatum, he might need an honest talk from you. "I have been unhappy for a while. I feel like I'm going it alone and I know myself well enough to know I need more involvement from a partner. Do you think you can help me with this, or would it be better if we split and I left to try to find what I need." And then have a reasonable but very specific list of what you need - "I need 15 hours of 'us time' each week, and I need you to share laundry duty with me." Or whatever.

If he truly loves you, he will want to make you happy and he may actually hear that in your voice and words.


----------



## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Acorn said:


> I would take a step back and consider this:
> 
> - You are NOT happy.
> - He is happy. If he wasn't happy he would have been motivated to change.
> ...


Great post. I'd also comment that you should never give an ultimatum/boundary that you're not willing to enforce.

C


----------



## Cuckcoo (Apr 23, 2013)

I feel like I have tried to explain my unhappiness in exact terms; we need more time alone together, family dinner a couple times a week, more support for my ambitions in life. 

These talks are always quickly met with either: I don't have time for this, you have no reason to be unhappy - I work hard for this family, your unhappiness is your own problem/I don't make you feel this way.

I'm not sure how much more direct I can be. Maybe I am not using the right words. It's extremely frustrating to be told I don't know what I am feeling or my feelings are wrong all the time.


----------



## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Your husband has to keep you doubting yourself and denying problems because the minute the problems are agreed upon, it will require effort on his part to fix them.

He does not have time for effort on his part. He is happy but this effort will make him unhappy.

When you have your talk with him, try to stay away from "we need more time together" (analytical solution) and speak from the heart, "I feel disconnected from you and I need more time with you as husband and wife."

When you talk about support for your ambitions, what exactly is that? Is it monetary? Time? Etc. Tell him specifically because "I need more support" may be coming across as an attack which lends itself to denial - "I work hard for this family."

All you can do is tell him how you are feeling. In essence, give him your heart to hold. Watch how carefully or clumsily he handles it - it is insight to your importance in his world.


----------



## Cuckcoo (Apr 23, 2013)

PBear said:


> Great post. I'd also comment that you should never give an ultimatum/boundary that you're not willing to enforce.
> 
> C


Yes, this I do understand. If kids were not involved this would be easier. I think he knows this is a major crutch for me also.


----------



## Cuckcoo (Apr 23, 2013)

His response: Of course I want the happy marriage

I told him we need to sit down and really talk about how to get there and what we are both willing to do. The status quo is no more.


----------



## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Just be sure to be concrete. What achievable things can you as a couple do to help your marriage be better. Try to steer away from concepts. Come up with specific goals that can be met and a reasonable timeline for those goals.


----------



## Cuckcoo (Apr 23, 2013)

sandc said:


> Just be sure to be concrete. What achievable things can you as a couple do to help your marriage be better. Try to steer away from concepts. Come up with specific goals that can be met and a reasonable timeline for those goals.


I would like for us to make lists. He make his list of needs. I make my own lists of needs. I will be sure to be clear on a timeline for needs to be met also. Thank you for adding that bit, I probably would not have thought of that. I'm hoping we can sit down and agree to start meeting some these ASAP. If he will not or tries to invalidate mine then I guess I know what I need to do. 

I am willing to work at this, I know I have faults as well. Letting go of this resentment will be a biggie for me.


----------



## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

As guys, we like clear concrete things. So instead of saying, I want us to have more fun together, say something like, I want to go to dinner twice a month. I'd like to go dancing once every two months. Picnic with just the two of us twice a year. Whatever. Pick dates. Make reservations. Hold each other accountable.

Dating has to be somewhat forced to begin with. It was difficult at first learning to date my wife again. But after a while we both got the hang of it and now we both look forward to whatever we do with each other.


----------



## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

If you are a Christian I have other suggestions too but I'll leave it at this for now.


----------



## Cuckcoo (Apr 23, 2013)

Fingers crossed that when we talk I can explain things to him better and be more concrete.

Yes, I am a Christian. Although getting my butt to church is an entirely new thread.


----------



## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Then I'd like to recommend a book by John Piper called Sex and the Superiority of Christ. It really opened my eyes to my wife's needs. It also explains husband's needs to wives from a Christian perspective. There are portions of the book that won't pertain to you but it's a good read if you can pick it up.

And yeah, get your butt back to church.  God says hi.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Cuckcoo,
it sounded like a warning to me and if those are truly the only two outcomes you see then it was good to say it.

I don't know how many men I've heard complaining that they were blind sided with no warning. They usually admit that "she" said this or that but I didn't believe she was serious. Make sure he knows you're serious.


----------



## Cuckcoo (Apr 23, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> Cuckcoo,
> it sounded like a warning to me and if those are truly the only two outcomes you see then it was good to say it.
> 
> I don't know how many men I've heard complaining that they were blind sided with no warning. They usually admit that "she" said this or that but I didn't believe she was serious. Make sure he knows you're serious.


Thank you for your opinion. I was trying to be as clear as possible (at least in my way of talking) and really express that we are at a breaking point.

I am a little worried about being too concrete about time together. It has been so long since we have spent quality time together. I am afraid we will be miserable and things will go horribly wrong, I guess. Is it normal to feel like that when you start "dating" your spouse again?

Also, he has said he will work on particular issues in the past. We have never been as concrete as SandC was explaining, timelines, etc. Today I am feeling very skeptical. He is very spontaneous, plans for basically nothing. Hates schedules. I am organized and like lists  
Maybe this will just never work. 

He came home pretty late so we did not talk last night. I am trying to give him time to process and hopefully take me seriously. Should I wait for him to approach me or should I bring it up again in a certain amount of time? He is good at being too busy to talk.


----------



## Cuckcoo (Apr 23, 2013)

Also, 
Thank you for the help, everyone! I am trying to do the right thing. I don't want to blind side him or have doubts later if we were to split. I really want us both to understand and have the chance to fix this.


----------



## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

It sounds like he will always be too busy to talk so you'll have to help him make time. I think at this point you need to put him on notice that the marriage is about to end. Let him know things need to change and you want to have the opportunity for you both to address problems. Tell him that you "don't want to blind side him or have doubts later WHEN we split up." This is apparently at a tipping point for you. You need to tell him that. If he just wants to keep putting off addressing those problems then maybe that's your answer.


----------



## Cuckcoo (Apr 23, 2013)

He came home at 2:30 AM so no talking again. In fact, I feel I am just getting the brush off. I'm confused because he told me "of course I want the happy marriage" .... and then works late (even extremely late) and makes no effort to talk about any of this. What??? Am I missing something? He's not the POTUS or an ER doc or something. We are not talking life or death if he actual makes a little time for me. I am so put off today. I don't think I should talk to him, if he does decide to show his face tonight.


----------



## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Can you arrange to go away with the kids for a weekend? Take them with you and leave a note. "We need to talk. Let me know when you have time." Leave it on your pillow. Go away for the weekend and don't call him. Wait for him to call you. Make him see what his future could be.

This should get his attention.


----------



## Cuckcoo (Apr 23, 2013)

I can't this weekend. The kids have a couple events planned and they would be super upset. It's not every weekend stuff we could just skip this one time. It's a good idea though. Thank you for the try.


----------



## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Have you seen any signs of cheating?


----------



## Cuckcoo (Apr 23, 2013)

Not really. Plenty of times I have gotten upset upon waking a 1 AM and he's not home. I haven't heard from him all night. I drive over to the business and he is there, no women. I have asked him flat out also and he always protests saying I am his one and only, no one is that beautiful but me, blah blah. We can get along great for a few days while he is being attentive (read as: wants sex) but then he is back to the usual after a day or two. 

I think I am dealing with a narcissistic workaholic or something. Anytime I bring time management up he gets very up set and says I don't support him and he is just trying to do what he has to to take care of the family. Problem is, he is doing nothing to take care of our marriage. This has been going on for 11 years! Because of the extreme guilt trips about not supporting him. At this rate I am convinced this business will never be one that allows his time to be anywhere but there. And we are not rollin' in the dough, not by any means.


----------



## Cuckcoo (Apr 23, 2013)

I honestly am at a loss. I don't know what to do next.

I tried to talk to him. I tried to explain that I am unhappy, have been a long time, explained why and that I have reached my limit.

His reply: I don't believe you are there yet (as in, not ready to divorce)

I told him that it made me very sad that he was trying to (yet again) invalidate my feelings and that it seemed he would only take me seriously when I am handing him our divorce papers.

He said "Look!"

I said: I refuse to talk to you if you are just going to insist on telling me what my feelings are or should be. Then I walked away.


----------



## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

I think it's time for a trial separation. It will give you both time to think. Do you have a place you can go for a week or two? If you can't move out then perhaps the try the 180? You no longer speak unless it involves the children, you no longer cook or clean for him, he no longer sleeps with you.


----------



## Cuckcoo (Apr 23, 2013)

I have read about the 180. I have been thinking about starting that.

He has been sleeping on the couch for 2 weeks. I told him I refuse to share a bed under these circumstances. I did all the laundry except his this week. The children are young and only 2 all day school so I need to be in the house to care for youngest. I don't have family close by, unfortunately. 

Why is he not taking me seriously? I don't understand.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Cuckcoo, Does he know what you actually want him to do? "Do" requests make more sense to guys than "be" requests. "I need you to be supportive" or "I want to be happy" doesn't mean squat to us. "I like it when you hold my hand when we're walking" makes sense. We don't sit around inventorying our emotions or comparing them to the guy next door. If someone asked me if I was "happy", I'd think " I guess so. I'm not hanging in the closet. I haven't slashed my wrists or shot myself. Yep, I'm happy."


----------



## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Work is apparently his whole world. That's why I thought moving out for a couple of weeks would get his attention. But the 180 should be almost as good. Or maybe you could buy him a cot and have it sent to him at his office. Pack some clothes in suitcases for him and take them to his office. Tell him do not bother coming home until you're ready to take me seriously. 

He will change when he really wants to. I did.


----------



## Cuckcoo (Apr 23, 2013)

I can't even get to the point were I am voicing specific needs. He immediately starts off with the "telling me how I feel" invalidating my feelings. I usually get mad by that and can't continue or it continues badly - my insisting I will be heard one way or another. 

I'm going to stop talking except concerning kids and start doing whatever I want.

He actually said; I don't kick you out of the bed and do mean stuff like that to you.

I said: I don't come home at 2:30AM multiple times a week. If I did I would expect for you to throw me out of the bed! Maybe I should start being that person. Then you might start to understand.


----------



## Cuckcoo (Apr 23, 2013)

and by "do whatever I want", I don't mean cheating. But I will make time for me. I have no problem dumping the kids at the office door a couple times a week to have the time to work on me.


----------



## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Glad to read that. That's a good idea. Drop the kids off and go do something therapeutic. Movie? Take up an art class? Kickboxing?

Just be very careful. When I say this please know that you have done nothing to indicate you would ever cheat but... You are ripe for an emotional affair to start. Try not to interact with too many men when you do go on your nights out. Once the EA starts there will be no hope for you marriage. 

Again, I know that's not what you're looking for. But there are men out there that would prey upon you. Just saying be careful.


----------



## Cuckcoo (Apr 23, 2013)

I understand what you are saying. I have never been the cheating type, never even thought about it. Another man is the last problem I want at this point - no offense to all the men  

My husband knows I am not the cheating type also and has indicated he has never worried about me straying. Maybe it would be ok if he wondered about the possibilities by my absence (without me actually involving another man in any way EA or PA). 

It seems I am loyal to a fault.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Cuckcoo said:


> I can't this weekend. The kids have a couple events planned and they would be super upset. It's not every weekend stuff we could just skip this one time. It's a good idea though. Thank you for the try.


Then do it the following weekend. 

You don't have to tell the children why you are taking them on a mini vacation. Just do it.


----------



## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Cuckcoo said:


> I understand what you are saying. I have never been the cheating type, never even thought about it. Another man is the last problem I want at this point - no offense to all the men
> 
> My husband knows I am not the cheating type also and has indicated he has never worried about me straying. Maybe it would be ok if he wondered about the possibilities by my absence (without me actually involving another man in any way EA or PA).
> 
> It seems I am loyal to a fault.


Then I hope he wakes up in time. This is his problem, not yours. You are doing everything you can to save the marriage. It's his to lose. You deserve better. I hope he becomes better.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Cuckcoo said:


> I understand what you are saying. I have never been the cheating type, never even thought about it. Another man is the last problem I want at this point - no offense to all the men
> 
> My husband knows I am not the cheating type also and has indicated he has never worried about me straying. Maybe it would be ok if he wondered about the possibilities by my absence (without me actually involving another man in any way EA or PA).
> 
> It seems I am loyal to a fault.


I think you would benefit from the book "Divorce Busting". One of the topics in it is how to customize the 180 for your particular circumstance.

Another good book to read after that is "His Needs, Her Needs". From the things you have written, it sounds like you might have already read it.

The idea of the 180 is that what you have been doing is not working. So stop doing it. Do the exact opposite. Before you do anything else read the Divorce Busting book.


----------



## Cuckcoo (Apr 23, 2013)

In one month a lot more possibilities open up and I will have options to take the kids out of town for extended trips. I already have two possibilities in mind. He can stay home and work and we will go have fun.

I have an older daughter in track and it just happens to be track meet season. I have thought about leaving her with dad and taking the younger 2 but I really don't want any resentment between her and I over any of this.


----------



## Cuckcoo (Apr 23, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> I think you would benefit from the book "Divorce Busting". One of the topics in it is how to customize the 180 for your particular circumstance.
> 
> Another good book to read after that is "His Needs, Her Needs". From the things you have written, it sounds like you might have already read it.
> 
> The idea of the 180 is that what you have been doing is not working. So stop doing it. Do the exact opposite. Before you do anything else read the Divorce Busting book.


Thank you. I will will check into those books. I appreciate the info. I have seen a lot about them while reading through other posts here but have not read any.


----------



## Cuckcoo (Apr 23, 2013)

I think we have had a break through (of sorts).
My H told me he had ADD and was on meds (forced by his mom) all through school. Struggled and dropped out of college, no meds.
I started looking into adult ADHD and relationships and HOLY COW! This is us to a T (our marriage/him). 
In my late night searches the past couple nights to understand all this, I came across a couple chapters of this book that started to make everything make sense. His workaholic ways, attention span, forgetfulness, impulsive buying, bad finances, moods. The book is "The ADHD Effect on Marriage"
We haven't been talking much but I ran to the book store and bought this book. When I got home he was there. I handed him the book and said I think you should read it. He looked at it and gave me the "whatever" face. I told him if he was serious about staying married he would read it.
He apparently started reading the book. When he got home that night he asked me to come sit down and talk. He said if there really is such a think as ADHD he is a textbook case. I told him that after reading about it, I agree. He says he is willing to go see someone about it if it will make his life/our lives better. He also said he feels depressed lately and like everything is crashing down on him because of some of the choices he has made (I'm guessing his impulsive choices that I try my best to discourage him from - then we fight).

Anyway, I feel like there is a little hope. I told him that I believe ADHD is real and that I have probably not reacted the way I should have. I told him that I was not aware ADHD was the problem and that it could cause the kinds of problems it has in our marriage. I told him I was sorry if I said things to belittle him or make him feel stupid.

My fear: He says he feels like this is just his personality and maybe not ADHD. I feel he might to not follow thru.

Just waiting to see what he does now.


----------



## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Pulling for you two.


----------



## Cuckcoo (Apr 23, 2013)

sandc said:


> Pulling for you two.


Thank you!


----------

