# I don't think my wife cares anymore



## working on me

Hi all...

I think I've had an epiphany yesterday...

My wife doesn't care anymore. 

She's been a SAHM for 14 years now. I make a very good living so she has a lot of freedom. Our kids are older now and really don't require the same level of supervision any longer. Her biggest time consuming activities are driving the kids around and doing laundry. 

She fills her days with lunches with girlfriend / how yoga / a LOT of volunteerism stuff at school ... while our house is in so so shape from a housekeeping perspective.

I actually comment that she's no longer a stay at home mom because she's never home! I would like her to go back to work, but she's "not ready".

Anyway, I'm in pretty decent shape and I work out and stay very active. As I mentioned she's been starting to work out again and doing yoga and hot yoga. That is beginning to show because she's looking better. She was never obese , but she always complained about needing to lose 20. now she's doing it.

So Saturday morning we are in bed and I mention how good she's looking and that her work is paying dividends...she sorta blew it off -- she doesn't take compliments well from me. her self esteem is low when it comes to her looks and body -- even though I've told her for 25+ years that I think she's beautiful and has a great body.

I told her point blank that she should just take my compliment for what its worth... she said thanks. Motivation came up during our talk and I asked if a tiny tiny part of her motivation for looking better was for me. She sorta laughed and said "NO!"..."I'm doing it for me". I asked again...not even a little bit for me? Nope... 

She said after being married for 20 years (we're both 47) she didn't have to impress me anymore.

I was taken aback a little. I absolutely try to stay in shape for her. I've read MMSL and have bought new clothing and upped my alpha some. She still sh!t tests now and again, but I think I handle them okay. I was hoping she would be motivated to look good for me...that would have made me feel great.

Later the next day she was going out with her girlfriends for brunch. She was getting very dressed up. I then mentioned that she spends more time getting ready and looking nicer for her girlfriends than she does when we have our date nights...why was that.

She blew it off like I was crazy... I'm imagining things etc.

I'm sorry I'm rambling -- I perceive the same attitude when it comes to taking care of the house and her responsibilities...our sex life. She's developed a "what's the big deal" attitude about so many things... A "good enough". 

I am a small business owner and work a lot and think I deal with my stresses pretty well. I provide for my family and I take pride in that. It occurred to me that my wife is ungrateful and doesn't care about our life as much as I would hope she would.

As I contemplate our future, it scares me. From a financial aspect certainly -- also our relationship. I'm certain there's nobody else. We have an open book with Texts/Emails etc. We also have find friends app on our iphones -- we know where each other is at any given time if we were curious.

Thanks for any feedback...i'm sorry for the ramble.


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## Hicks

You have to get over the fear of divorce. You have to be absolutely sure you are a great husband and she is happy in her life and you are the source of her happiness.

Your wife then has to become aware of what you expect in a wife, and be told to make a decison about what type of wife she plans to be.

If you are a great husband, she will choose to be a great wife, once you verbalize what you expect.

Don't ask her alot of questions. Make more statements about what you expect and how you expect it. 

For example... "Wife you should be getting all dolled up like that for ouri date nites".. Don't try to trap her into admitting or not admitting something.


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## working on me

Hicks said:


> You have to get over the fear of divorce. You have to be absolutely sure you are a great husband and she is happy in her life and you are the source of her happiness.
> 
> Your wife then has to become aware of what you expect in a wife, and be told to make a decison about what type of wife she plans to be.
> 
> If you are a great husband, she will choose to be a great wife, once you verbalize what you expect.
> 
> Don't ask her alot of questions. Make more statements about what you expect and how you expect it.
> 
> For example... "Wife you should be getting all dolled up like that for ouri date nites".. Don't try to trap her into admitting or not admitting something.


I do have a fear of divorce... does it really come across that clearly? 

I'm mostly afraid of losing my kids and getting taken to the cleaners financially. Her not working for so many years and having zero desire to return had me behind the 8 ball.

I think I'm a pretty good husband and father. There is always room for improvement and I'm trying. If I treated my responsibilities like she treats her, our lives wouldn't be pretty. 

The tip about trapping is good...I think maybe I am guilty of that. I asked a question hoping for an answer ..even though I knew it wasn't coming. 

Thanks Hicks...


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## Cre8ify

Women know full well the importance of beauty to men. There is a constant competition between women and I don't think the extra measure of care when "being compared" to the women friends is unusual. Early in my career I had occasion to manage an entire department of women and the dynamics are powerful. The most beautiful of them does not have an easy life as they all tear on her.

All this competition is for the attention of men. What jumps out at me is your wife feels secure in you and does not feel the need to impress you. We have a bit more tension there as I have a sex rank advantage that I would hate to give up. Also, there are no guarantees for us and we are a work in progress. Even so, I bet my wife's attitude would not be any different, probably because, in her mind, our relationship is more multifaceted and complex now and has advanced beyond beauty.


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## Charmed37

We have been married for 20 years. About 12 of those I have been a SAHM. Our kids are older now and I sometimes just wondered, well what do I do now? I did the friend/lunch date thing for a while but it wasn't enough and got a bit boring. It may for her too. I have found a lot of satisfaction in going back to school. I take some of the standard classes needed to finish my degree. But I also sneak in a fun class each semester just for myself. Employers don't look to kindly at SAHM's and think we have just been sitting on our @ss eatting bon bons for years. Boy, I wish that were true!  So hopefully soon I will have a better degree to throw at them. Maybe your wife is just trying to find herself again after many years of service to others? Offer her suggestions of other activities or possibly offer her a job at your business. How long has she had this much free time on her hands? 

As far as the yoga/working out thing, I wouldn't be to hard on her about that one. No matter what her reason for doing it, you will still reap the benefits of her labors. You will have a wife that feels better about herself, looks better and that can do wonders for a womans actions in all other areas of her life.


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## Cre8ify

My situation is like yours--wife SAHM for 16 years, own my own business. In 2008, the economy tanked and we had to start to talk about her going back to work before she was ready. We are a few years older than you and she did reenter the workforce in 2010. Even part-time, this has not been easy and she harbors resentment because she is a "super mom" who can't manage all of the kid details she'd like to. IMO manage this carefully because the world of work can be a perilous and stressful place today. Also, with the unemployment situation as it is, a SAHM with dated skills can find re-entry challenging. If you look at this time as a "transitional" time she might find a vision of the future she can get behind and animate herself toward.

Life's new chapters, no matter how exciting, usually bring some anxiety too.


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## Emerald

I agree with you. She sounds complacent & takes you for granted.

Why do you want her to work? She seems pretty happy doing yoga & going out with her girlfriends? Are you resentful? I would be.


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## DayDream

Be a man and tell her it's time to get a job. Stick up for your own beliefs and needs for a change. Don't be a whiney little boy about it seeking desperately for her approval. That doesn't go over with most women. 

God what I wouldn't give to have finding something to occupy all the free time I have as my only worry...


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## Brokken

It's ok ur not rambling ....lol u just needed to get it off ur chest.. I agree with the others 
She's taking u for granted ...u need to sit her down and let her knw how u feel..

If she doesn't wake up and change ... Give her a taste of her own Med's ..u start enjoying ur fruit of ur own labor ... She sure is enjoying it and doesn't appreciate 
You ..or respect your marriage ... You sound like a nice reasonable man ..
I hope it works out for you...


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## Memento

You see her almost exclusively for what she does or doesn't do, not for what she means to you. You dont mention almost any good things about her. Perhaps she also wonders if you care as well.


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## DayDream

Memento said:


> You see her almost exclusively for what she does or doesn't do, not for what she means to you. You dont mention almost any good things about her. Perhaps she also wonders if you care as well.


That's because he's a guy.


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## DayDream

Guys have a hard time admitting that stuff it seems...


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## Memento

DayDream said:


> Guys have a hard time admitting that stuff it seems...


I think they forget women als like to feel validated and loved, from time to time. And they also have a hard time believing we don't read their minds!


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## DayDream

Memento said:


> I think they forget women als like to feel validated and loved, from time to time. And they also have a hard time believing we don't read their minds!


True!


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## A Bit Much

> I'm mostly afraid of losing my kids and getting taken to the cleaners financially. Her not working for so many years and having zero desire to return had me behind the 8 ball.


Not afraid of losing HER? That's interesting. Maybe you don't care anymore either (about your primary relationship).


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## working on me

Emerald said:


> I agree with you. She sounds complacent & takes you for granted.
> 
> Why do you want her to work? She seems pretty happy doing yoga & going out with her girlfriends? Are you resentful? I would be.


I never thought about it that much, but I guess I am resentful of her being semi-retired while I'm responsible for providing for our future and retirement... She doesn't take the SAHM thing very seriously anymore because our house is the picture of disorganization... being cared for by someone who doesn't care that much. She does care about projects outside the home in a big way.


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## A Bit Much

working on me said:


> I never thought about it that much, but I guess I am resentful of her being semi-retired while I'm responsible for providing for our future and retirement... She doesn't take the SAHM thing very seriously anymore because our house is the picture of disorganization... being cared for by someone who doesn't care that much. She does care about projects outside the home in a big way.


If she kept the house up better would you feel differently?


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## working on me

Memento said:


> You see her almost exclusively for what she does or doesn't do, not for what she means to you. You dont mention almost any good things about her. Perhaps she also wonders if you care as well.


Fair enough... I was too much of a nice guy in the past. I've been trying to change that. She think I don't appreciate what she does, I do know that. She tends to exaggerate her daily stuff. For example rescheduling a school meeting with 3 other people took a whole afternoon apparently. That doesn't fly with me. 

I tell my kids, the day I stop being a pain in their behinds and making sure they do everything is the day they know I've stopped caring.


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## working on me

A Bit Much said:


> Not afraid of losing HER? That's interesting. Maybe you don't care anymore either (about your primary relationship).


You are right... the thought of divorce has been on my mind for the past number of months. I feel like I deserve better. 

I've printed out the list of needs from His Needs / Her Needs, but have be hesitant to go through them with her... 

I'm not sure why I'm hesitant... avoiding confrontation probably because she responds emotionally whenever I show any dissatisfaction with anything...


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## A Bit Much

working on me said:


> You are right... the thought of divorce has been on my mind for the past number of months. I feel like I deserve better.
> 
> I've printed out the list of needs from His Needs / Her Needs, but have be hesitant to go through them with her...
> 
> I'm not sure why I'm hesitant... avoiding confrontation probably because *she responds emotionally whenever I show any dissatisfaction* with anything...


Emotion is a good thing. When she stops responding at all is when you should be worried.

She's the other half of this dynamic. She should know exactly how you feel 100%. Either she can choose to work on it with you to make it better or do nothing and let your marriage continue to suffer. At least give her an opportunity to address what you perceive is wrong.


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## working on me

A Bit Much said:


> If she kept the house up better would you feel differently?


Yeah, I think her treating her responsibilities seriously would help...at least in between the days the cleaning service comes to clean.


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## A Bit Much

working on me said:


> Yeah, I think her treating her responsibilities seriously would help...at least in between the days the cleaning service comes to clean.


If a cleaner house is important to you, then you should have a conversation about it. This is your wife. Talk about it with her. Help her understand that the way your home looks daily reflects how she feels about you.


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## Machiavelli

working on me said:


> I'm certain there's nobody else.


Well, I'm certain you're right.


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## canttrustu

working on me said:


> Yeah, I think her treating her responsibilities seriously would help...at least in between the days the cleaning service comes to clean.


cleaning service???? For a SAHM? Really? Wow. That would NEVER fly at my house. My H would flat say "thats your job. Mine is to earn a living and put the roof over our heads and yours is to take care of whats under that roof" Plain and simple. That was our agreement. If I didnt uphold it, he'd say so in a heartbeat.


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## working on me

Machiavelli said:


> Well, I'm certain you're right.


Because of the email openness and GPS tracking availability?


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## working on me

canttrustu said:


> cleaning service???? For a SAHM? Really? Wow. That would NEVER fly at my house. My H would flat say "thats your job. Mine is to earn a living and put the roof over our heads and yours is to take care of whats under that roof" Plain and simple. That was our agreement. If I didnt uphold it, he'd say so in a heartbeat.


I agree...but my wife has stated that she doesn't like cleaning and our house isn't small... 

The most active time in our house is the night before the cleaning service shows up... straitening up for the cleaners...so they can clean... is so ironic to me.


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## canttrustu

working on me said:


> I agree...but my wife has stated that she doesn't like cleaning and our house isn't small...
> 
> The most active time in our house is the night before the cleaning service shows up... straitening up for the cleaners...so they can clean... is so ironic to me.


She doesnt 'like' cleaning? well then, she certainly shouldnt have to do it???? Our house isnt small either. Doesnt matter. We didnt get married so I could do nothing and he could work his arse off. No Im in charge of cleaning, homework, laundry, dinner, dishes, showertime for the kids, school activities, paying the bills, grocery shopping, sports and extracurricular activity coordination(he attends but getting the 'work' side of it done is my job) and almost everything else-save the yardwork-which he actually enjoys doing. 

I understand she doesnt 'like' it but how do you 'like' getting up and going to work everyday???


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## Cre8ify

LMAO--Same exact thing in my house. Running around like headless chickens until midnight to be ready for the cleaning lady. Heaven forbid she should be able to correctly evaluate the kind of slob our teenager is.


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## A Bit Much

I don't think many people LIKE cleaning, but you do it anyway because a clean house not only looks nice, but is sanitary. Living in filth isn't something most people would want to be doing.


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## Cre8ify

PS--We did not have the cleaning lady when she was SAHM. My wife actually likes to clean and wants it to be immaculate. And no, the cleaning lady is never good enough.


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## working on me

A Bit Much said:


> I don't think many people LIKE cleaning, but you do it anyway because a clean house not only looks nice, but is sanitary. Living in filth isn't something most people would want to be doing.



I couldn't live in a filthy house... our house is clutterville... a different sort of aggravation. I walk in from work some days and immediately get tense from just looking around. 3 (one teen and two tweens) kids can trash a place in minutes.


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## canttrustu

Cre8ify said:


> PS--We did not have the cleaning lady when she was SAHM. My wife actually likes to clean and wants it to be immaculate. And no, the cleaning lady is never good enough.


I would never have one for this very reason. they would all quit.


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## A Bit Much

I stayed home for a year (layoff). 

I had cleaning days... didn't bother me at all. My H went to work every day, I could clean. I even cooked meals, did the laundry and made his lunches! 

I'd like to go back to that. He liked it more than I did I think...


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## A Bit Much

working on me said:


> I couldn't live in a filthy house... our house is clutterville... a different sort of aggravation. I walk in from work some days and immediately get tense from just looking around. 3 (one teen and two tweens) kids can trash a place in minutes.


My kids were teens when I was home, and they had chores. I wasn't doing all of that myself. 

They have been cleaning their own rooms and doing their own laundry since the age of 10. Each of them had dishes to do and they alternated weeks. Their shared bathroom was also alternately cleaned by each of them, I only went in once a month to do the deep cleaning.

I don't agree with MOM being the maid for everyone else. They have to learn to be self sufficient.


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## DayDream

working on me said:


> I couldn't live in a filthy house... our house is clutterville... a different sort of aggravation. I walk in from work some days and immediately get tense from just looking around. 3 (one teen and two tweens) kids can trash a place in minutes.


Sounds like my house. I have camera business equipment all over my house. Boxes of stuff. Computer stuff. I swear my husband would be a total hoarder if I let him.


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## working on me

A Bit Much said:


> My kids were teens when I was home, and they had chores. I wasn't doing all of that myself.
> 
> They have been cleaning their own rooms and doing their own laundry since the age of 10. Each of them had dishes to do and they alternated weeks. Their shared bathroom was also alternately cleaned by each of them, I only went in once a month to do the deep cleaning.
> 
> I don't agree with MOM being the maid for everyone else. They have to learn to be self sufficient.


I have been trying to implement that... kids need to be involved in the day to day running of the house. Problem is my wife doesn't follow through and insure it's being done correctly -- that's why I think she's stopped caring and is complacent...almost apathetic sometimes. phrases like "What's the big deal" "You're too picky" "relax a little" are heard frequently...


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## A Bit Much

working on me said:


> I have been trying to implement that... kids need to be involved in the day to day running of the house. Problem is my wife doesn't follow through and insure it's being done correctly -- that's why I think she's stopped caring and is complacent...almost apathetic sometimes. phrases like "What's the big deal" "You're too picky" "relax a little" are heard frequently...


I just think she's not that worried about it. The clutter doesn't bother her like it bothers you. I can't stand it at all, but H is more relaxed about it. When he does notice it, he cleans exceptionally well though. Thankfully it doesn't take the house to look like a pig stye for him to do something. A lot of couples are just like the two of you. One more laid back and the other more A type personality. I would be the A type in our house.

Follow through IS tough with teens, but I would just not let them do stuff they wanted to do until they did the things I wanted them to first. They want something, I want something... if they work for it, they would get it. Don't? Oh well. Consistency is very key here. You and your wife should be on the same page, and when she's slacking you should let her know and help reinforce the rules with them.

The team has to have all the players working together.


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## Cre8ify

A Bit Much said:


> I just think she's not that worried about it. The clutter doesn't bother her like it bothers you. I can't stand it at all, but H is more relaxed about it. When he does notice it, he cleans exceptionally well though. Thankfully it doesn't take the house to look like a pig stye for him to do something. A lot of couples are just like the two of you. One more laid back and the other more A type personality. I would be the A type in our house.
> 
> Follow through IS tough with teens, but I would just not let them do stuff they wanted to do until they did the things I wanted them to first. They want something, I want something... if they work for it, they would get it. Don't? Oh well. Consistency is very key here. You and your wife should be on the same page, and when she's slacking you should let her know and help reinforce the rules with them.
> 
> The team has to have all the players working together.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cre8ify

Cre8ify said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Kids that age require rather active parenting at least for us. Where does the apathy and fatigue come from?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

working on me said:


> I never thought about it that much, but I guess I am resentful of her being semi-retired while I'm responsible for providing for our future and retirement... She doesn't take the SAHM thing very seriously anymore because our house is the picture of disorganization... being cared for by someone who doesn't care that much. She does care about projects outside the home in a big way.


The first thing I would do is stop giving her money. I'm serious. "Honey, it looks like you no longer take pride in performing YOUR half of our bargain - being a homemaker. So I'm going to redo our finances and put the money you are used to spending into hiring a caretaker for our home. If you need money to spend on your outings, feel free to get a job."

And THEN DO IT.

It sounds like you read MMSL for a reason - you're a beta male who doesn't know how to take what he wants. Time to change that, or she'll start bringing her boyfriends home.


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## turnera

working on me said:


> I have been trying to implement that... kids need to be involved in the day to day running of the house. Problem is my wife doesn't follow through and insure it's being done correctly -- that's why I think she's stopped caring and is complacent...almost apathetic sometimes. phrases like "What's the big deal" "You're too picky" "relax a little" are heard frequently...


 She talks that way because she has NO RESPECT FOR YOU. You're no longer her husband. You're her benefactor.

Have you read No More Mr Nice Guy?

btw, YOU can hold the kids accountable when you get home. "Show me what you did today." "No, that's not sufficient. Go redo that closet, or you're not getting your phone back."


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## Hicks

You read His Needs / Her Needs?

You have a good handle on your own emotional needs. Can you say what her needs are? 

You have to do a very good job at meeting her needs before she will be open to the concept of meeting yours. 

I am of the opinion that you don't ask her what her needs are or ask her to make a list or even ask her to read any books. You read a book like that and do trial and error to see what puts a smile on her face.


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## turnera

That won't work if she has no fear he will leave.


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## Acorn

turnera said:


> That won't work if she has no fear he will leave.


I agree with turnera. 

You are playing the game on her terms, and so she's not going to change. You need an equalizer... fear of divorce, fear of money... something to get her out of her comfort zone and being as willing to solve the problem as you are.


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## Hicks

If she is not happy, and not having her needs met, she will not care if he leaves. And in a long term marriage involving a man who starts a business with the wife SAHM, unless she has been living under a rock she is probably aware that she is entitled to alot (financially) in the case of a divorce.

Therefore a man in this situation has to do two things at the same time: He has to make her happy and feel good about her marriage and also make her aware that he will leave her if she refuses to contribute to his happiness.

I look at it like this, you should never threaten divorce if you think she may accept that option. You only do that when your are certain she does not want it (or if you are certain that you do want it).


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## working on me

Acorn said:


> I agree with turnera.
> 
> You are playing the game on her terms, and so she's not going to change. You need an equalizer... fear of divorce, fear of money... something to get her out of her comfort zone and being as willing to solve the problem as you are.



thanks to you and turnera for your frank responses... I started this thread about her comments and disposition in a couple of situations... I guess I"m not surprised at how it turned.

I've read NMMNG... I've been reading these boards as well.

if I'm going to be really really honest with myself, the fear of the fallout is pretty big for me. She would go to our mutual friends and bad mouth me -- I'm being an unreasonable dck etc. That concerns me ...and I'm not sure why. 

She's also go to my family and rag as well. 

I don't trust that we can have a conversation about these issues and it stay between the 2 of us. She would need some validation from her peer SAHM's that I'm a pig.

I think I could handle her fallout, but I don't trust it being spun and spread to our social circle and that impact... is that reasonable?


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## A Bit Much

Why does she view you so negatively? That would concern me more than anything, not the way others see me.


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## working on me

Hicks said:


> If she is not happy, and not having her needs met, she will not care if he leaves. And in a long term marriage involving a man who starts a business with the wife SAHM, unless she has been living under a rock she is probably aware that she is entitled to alot (financially) in the case of a divorce.
> 
> Therefore a man in this situation has to do two things at the same time: He has to make her happy and feel good about her marriage and also make her aware that he will leave her if she refuses to contribute to his happiness.
> 
> I look at it like this, you should never threaten divorce if you think she may accept that option. You only do that when your are certain she does not want it (or if you are certain that you do want it).


A while ago -- before I got to these boards -- I would try to talk to her about how I felt and convince her that she was living in her own world. That never went well and every-time we would talk it would devolve into how unhappy she *really* is ... basically a passive aggressive threat that she'd leave. 

One time I called her on it and said let's go pack because I'm done doing this dance. She retreated at that point. 

I hear what you're saying Hicks...thanks. Basically what would be worse...divorce or change...

Not sure I could answer that for her right now.


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## working on me

A Bit Much said:


> Why does she view you so negatively? That would concern me more than anything, not the way others see me.


Keep me on my toes?

I'm not the perfect husband by any stretch. I have my issues as well... 

A little gratefulness and appreciation would go MILES for me.

She really thinks I don't respect what she does currently -- and I guess she's right. She's probably resentful towards me for that. 

Her circle of friends are all well to do princesses and now she's part of that club. Problem is I don't want her in that club.


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## Acorn

working on me said:


> A while ago -- before I got to these boards -- I would try to talk to her about how I felt and convince her that she was living in her own world. That never went well and every-time we would talk it would devolve into how unhappy she *really* is ... basically a passive aggressive threat that she'd leave.


This is part of the game. She's trying to keep you focused on what you can do for her, so you don't realize she's not doing a whole lot for you right now.


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## A Bit Much

working on me said:


> Keep me on my toes?
> 
> I'm not the perfect husband by any stretch. I have my issues as well...
> 
> A little gratefulness and appreciation would go MILES for me.
> 
> She really thinks I don't respect what she does currently -- and I guess she's right. She's probably resentful towards me for that.
> 
> Her circle of friends are all well to do princesses and now she's part of that club. Problem is I don't want her in that club.


How about you work on the things you DO have control over? Her choice of friends... not much control over that. Respect of her and what she does? Absolutely. You want the same thing she wants. Appreciation. You have to give it to get it.


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## working on me

Acorn said:


> This is part of the game. She's trying to keep you focused on what you can do for her, so you don't realize she's not doing a whole lot for you right now.


yeah...that's why I started this thread...

she doesn't care anymore...or put another way...she stopped trying.


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## alte Dame

A few comments (most of which are probably obvious...):

- One of the real effects of splitting duties, with one person staying at home and one earning the salary is that after a number of years, you're so dug in with your different experiences that you lose the ability/right to criticize the other person because you never walk in his/her shoes. You only see your side & this gets thrown back in your face.

- SAHM/D's feel that the years that they worked 24/7 with children and house duty were often so stultifying that they've earned a very, very long break from work. I know women who take a break from it essentially for the rest of their lives and declare that they deserve this after the work they've already put in.

- The Lucille Ball Effect - 'If you want something done, get a busy person to do it.' This means that the less you have on your plate, the less you will get done exponentially (i.e., a busy, productive person will get much more done in an hour than a 'relaxed' person).

- Going back to a paying job is psychologically very difficult for many people in terms of their self-esteem - many SAHMs are simply not confident that they can cut it in a 9-to-5 environment & are afraid to make the leap.

And, of course, the fact that you've been together for a long time and your wife definitely appears to be taking you for granted.

I think if I were you, I would insist (not suggest) on MC to help the two of you find some solutions to this.


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## working on me

alte Dame said:


> A few comments (most of which are probably obvious...):
> 
> - One of the real effects of splitting duties, with one person staying at home and one earning the salary is that after a number of years, you're so dug in with your different experiences that you lose the ability/right to criticize the other person because you never walk in his/her shoes. You only see your side & this gets thrown back in your face.
> 
> - SAHM/D's feel that the years that they worked 24/7 with children and house duty was often so stultifying that they've earned a very, very long break from work. I know women who take a break from it essentially for the rest of their lives and declare that they deserve this after the work they've already put in.
> 
> - The Lucille Ball Effect - 'If you want something done, get a busy person to do it.' This means that the less you have on your plate, the less you will get done exponentially (i.e., a busy, productive person will get much more done in an hour than a 'relaxed' person).
> 
> - Going back to a paying job is psychologically very difficult for many people in terms of their self-esteem - many SAHMs are simply not confident that they can cut it in a 9-to-5 environment & are afraid to make the leap.
> 
> And, of course, the fact that you've been together for a long time and your wife definitely appears to be taking you for granted.
> 
> I think if I were you, I would insist (not suggest) on MC to help the two of you find some solutions to this.


When our 3 kids were young, she worked very hard to keep things going. During that time I was working as hard if not harder building my business. 3-4 years of dealing with a house and little kids isn't the end I don't think...that isn't a career in my opinion.

My wife is a busy person outside the home... she is on committees and volunteers for everything and is good at it. 

Those activities have become her focus... When I get home she's usually in relax mode... I'm the cook in our house and I get busy making dinner (after cleaning the kitchen island) while she is in a down mode most of the time....


----------



## The Middleman

working on me said:


> My wife is a busy person outside the home... she is on committees and volunteers for everything and is good at it.
> 
> Those activities have become her focus... When I get home she's usually in relax mode... I'm the cook in our house and I get busy making dinner (after cleaning the kitchen island) while she is in a down mode most of the time....


I once knew a family very similar to the way you describe yours. I wish I could say good things came out of their family life .... but it was quite the opposite. Ultimately the situation lead to the couple splitting up and the wife having a long term relationship with a married man (not sure which came first). You are going to have to work hard on getting close to her again and please make sure that you are very comfortable with your verification of her activities (is she doing what she says she is doing). All these outside interests are taking her away from staying emotionally connected to you and opens the opportunity for her to emotionally connect with others..... Just Sayin'.


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## alte Dame

working on me said:


> When our 3 kids were young, she worked very hard to keep things going. During that time I was working as hard if not harder building my business. 3-4 years of dealing with a house and little kids isn't the end I don't think...that isn't a career in my opinion.
> 
> My wife is a busy person outside the home... she is on committees and volunteers for everything and is good at it.
> 
> Those activities have become her focus... When I get home she's usually in relax mode... I'm the cook in our house and I get busy making dinner (after cleaning the kitchen island) while she is in a down mode most of the time....


You two are off on different trajectories and you are doing more than your share. One of the problems with many couples is they don't plan together what they will do when the children no longer require the SAHP. Then the divisions and resentment build.

Again, you should insist on addressing this directly with your wife, with a MC if necessary.


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## warlock07

Are you absolutely sure tht there is no one else ?

Some of her actions and reactions seem odd.

Blowing up when you called her out when dressing up more for her friends, spending most of her time out of the house, errands taking a lot more than they should..

I can explain away the emails and GPS. Parking her car at the said place and using a different car solves the GPS problem. Deleting the mail or using a different email address when contacting with the other person should solve the other problem. Using a burner phone makes sure the calls don't show up on family account..

or she genuinely doesn't care...But there are genuine red flags and affair signs from you wife. If the reason is an affair, nothing you do will solve the issue

How is your sex life?


----------



## sexy

working on me said:


> Hi all...
> 
> I think I've had an epiphany yesterday...
> 
> My wife doesn't care anymore.
> 
> She's been a SAHM for 14 years now. I make a very good living so she has a lot of freedom. Our kids are older now and really don't require the same level of supervision any longer. Her biggest time consuming activities are driving the kids around and doing laundry.
> 
> She fills her days with lunches with girlfriend / how yoga / a LOT of volunteerism stuff at school ... while our house is in so so shape from a housekeeping perspective.
> 
> I actually comment that she's no longer a stay at home mom because she's never home! I would like her to go back to work, but she's "not ready".
> 
> Anyway, I'm in pretty decent shape and I work out and stay very active. As I mentioned she's been starting to work out again and doing yoga and hot yoga. That is beginning to show because she's looking better. She was never obese , but she always complained about needing to lose 20. now she's doing it.
> 
> So
> 
> 
> 
> Saturday morning we are in bed and I mention how good she's looking and that her work is paying dividends...she sorta blew it off -- she doesn't take compliments well from me. her self esteem is low when it comes to her looks and body -- even though I've told her for 25+ years that I think she's beautiful and has a great body.
> 
> I told her point blank that she should just take my compliment for what its worth... she said thanks. Motivation came up during our talk and I asked if a tiny tiny part of her motivation for looking better was for me. She sorta laughed and said "NO!"..."I'm doing it for me". I asked again...not even a little bit for me? Nope...
> 
> She said after being married for 20 years (we're both 47) she didn't have to impress me anymore.
> 
> I was taken aback a little. I absolutely try to stay in shape for her. I've read MMSL and have bought new clothing and upped my alpha some. She still sh!t tests now and again, but I think I handle them okay. I was hoping she would be motivated to look good for me...that would have made me feel great.
> 
> Later the next day she was going out with her girlfriends for brunch. She was getting very dressed up.
> 
> 
> 
> I then mentioned that she spends more time getting ready and looking nicer for her girlfriends than she does when we have our date nights...why was that.
> 
> She blew it off like I was crazy... I'm imagining things etc.
> 
> I'm sorry I'm rambling -- I perceive the same attitude when it comes to taking care of the house and her responsibilities...our sex life. She's developed a "what's the big deal" attitude about so many things... A "good enough".
> 
> I am a small business owner and work a lot and think I deal with my stresses pretty well. I provide for my family and I take pride in that. It occurred to me that my wife is ungrateful and doesn't care about our life as much as I would hope she would.
> 
> As I contemplate our future, it scares me. From a financial aspect certainly -- also our relationship. I'm certain there's nobody else. We have an open book with Texts/Emails etc. We also have find friends app on our iphones -- we know where each other is at any given time if we were curious.
> 
> Thanks for any feedback...i'm sorry for the ramble.
Click to expand...


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## tom67

warlock07 said:


> Are you absolutely sure tht there is no one else ?
> 
> Some of her actions and reactions seem odd.
> 
> Blowing up when you called her out when dressing up more for her friends, spending most of her time out of the house, errands taking a lot more than they should..
> 
> I can explain away the emails and GPS. Parking her car at the said place and using a different car solves the GPS problem. Deleting the mail or using a different email address when contacting with the other person should solve the other problem. Using a burner phone makes sure the calls don't show up on family account..
> 
> or she genuinely doesn't care...But there are genuine red flags and affair signs from you wife. If the reason is an affair, nothing you do will solve the issue
> 
> How is your sex life?


Maybe time for a keylogger for the computer and vars in the house(bedroom) and in the car just to rule that out.


----------



## Cre8ify

Apathy at this stage of the game does seem odd but there is one thing I am certain of--_It is very difficult for a man to express enough appreciation for what a SAHM does every day. _ It sounds trite but in many ways it has always been easier for me to go off to work and have a very predictable situation which I largely control. She will have all sorts of distractions and messes that keep her from having the kind or structure and normalcy she would like. I can achieve success/recognition and she plods along like a postman processing a persistent avalanche with little encouragement. And yes, my wife had time for exercise and coffee in there somewhere even as she managed every minute facet of the kid's lives.

If she is offline and passive, that may be worse than if you are having knock down, drag out arguments. IMO it is better for her to be engaged with you on the issue.

Why would she take the conflict outside of the marriage? Is there no way for her to stand up to your position on her own?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

working on me said:


> Keep me on my toes?
> 
> I'm not the perfect husband by any stretch. I have my issues as well...
> 
> A little gratefulness and appreciation would go MILES for me.
> 
> She really thinks I don't respect what she does currently -- and I guess she's right. She's probably resentful towards me for that.
> 
> Her circle of friends are all well to do princesses and now she's part of that club. Problem is I don't want her in that club.


Honest question - what exactly is there of what she does to respect? She does not clean, rear the children, or work. She does a lot for herself in the form of lunches with friends and yoga. So what is there to respect?

In addition to the good advice you are getting from others, such as Hicks and Tunera, consider that she has depression issues stemming from not having a goal. Work, whether it is a paying job or volunteering with a worthy group (that choice is up to you), may help her self esteem.


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## sexy

Hi working,

You are one of my favorite posters on this board, so I had to reply. I am very similar to your wife right now as far as the age of our kids (ours are 15 & 12) Our ages are probably pretty close to y'all's too. I'm 46, He's 49. Anyway, I have suffered the stay at home wife thing too, still am for the most part, and I will tell you right now, there is no tougher job. Having said that, now my kids are older and I do not have very marketable skills for the current job market. I am a college graduate (liberal arts degree) with no real job prospects, but I work part time as a substitute teacher for a nearby school district. My money could NEVER begin to approximate my husband's income. He is an engineer with NASA out in Houston, and I'm a college grad who earns about 10$/hr watching kids throw spit wads at each other. I don't work every day, but I work most days when school is in session. I also have had the weight gain, weight loss self-esteem issue thing too, and what I get from your carefully put together post is that you seem to feel taken for granted. Well I see that you are, but I don't think the damage or effect on your marriage should be SOOO drastic! Some of this stuff seems to be little stuff about how to transition from a child raising couple to a post-SAHM situation. This marriage does not strike me as one in danger of divorce as it is. Having said that, I do see the things she is doing, and I have done them (recently) in my marriage too! I am starting to lose weight too, and my progress is very slow and steady but noticeable. I have lost about 20 pounds, but I would like to lose 10 or 15 more. I 'll just have to keep pluggin. And on that thread: She said just EXACTLY the right thing to say to you!!!!! GOOD FOR HER!!! The woman who tells anyone that they are losing weight or working out for ANY person OTHER than themselves is NOT going to keep the weight off!! It really amazes me how that interaction went off. with you complimenting her and then asking her if some of her motivation was to lose weight or you. Let me let you in on a little secret: NO WOMAN LOSES WEIGHT because they are bored or not enjoying the food! WE ALL DO IT FOR OUR MAN!!! BUT we ALSO do it for OURSELVES FIRST! We can't love you if we don't love us FIRST! That's what she should have said to you. Kudos for her. She wants to be sexy for you. OF COURSE she does! what wife doesn't? Now to your clean house issue. REALLY? That's your deal breaker dude? I read another post about a man who asked where to go to look for girls who don't have a tattoo and got a laugh about the responses to tell him Dude, maybe you better just stay single. I LOVED THAT response!!!!! Sometimes just let the house stay dirty! Come home, see her and ask her about her day, rip your shirt off, shower, get yourself food, clean up after yourself, but nothing extra. Don't make too big a deal of the house. You run your own business, just upgrade your technology to one of those self-cleaning models that has its own built-in automatic laundry machines that wash, dry,fold, and put away the clothes too. jk jk jk... The fewer little battles you come up with the more things she will do for herself and you. Don't demand from her or ultimatum her. This will not fix your perceived problem. Personally I am not a great housekeeper, I'm too busy getting in and out of the shower / our bed to keep house very well There are worse problems than a dirty kitchen and an unmade bed with unfolded clothes all around my bed. I guess I'll have to hire someone to do that tomorrow. I'm too tired from all that sex. jk,jk. 
Now seriously, try to pick your battles while sorting through this transitional time. You may find that a clean house doesn't mean as much to you as you think. What do you want in order of priorities:
more money? have her get a job. more sex? let her keep working out and worry less about clean house. cleaner house? get one of your children to do the cleaning that she has probably done for a while. She shouldn't be the only one that knows how to hold a broom or turn a stove on. My husband and kids just think I ride the broom best and no one makes gruel like ole mom! But think about some of this. When women suffer from low self esteem it usually has built up over time. It will take some time for her to fix it. Some of the best ways to so it are by: losing weight, getting fit, getting a part time job or involved in a volunteering mission, eventually finding her own slice of pie to enjoy now that that unimportant, piece of cake blowoff job of raisin' youngun's is almost over. She'll get there, just be patient, it doesn't happen over night. the more you hound her about every little thing, the less she will give you in any area of her life. get her working out regularly the both of you get in the sack and do some more workin' out, and remind her of all the things you love about her. she will give you more things to love in the future. 
well Working, 
I hope I have said something useful to you. As I said before you are one of my favorite posters here. Go Slow, be patient, and YES she DID lose weight to impress you too. We all do or we would just eat whatever we wanted when we wanted. believe me it's easier to get fat and enjoy doing it than getting skinny and not being noticed for it. 

Hope this Helps


----------



## Emerald

I think you are afraid of your wife & also what she will tell your social circle about you. Do you have skeletons in your closet?


----------



## working on me

warlock07 said:


> Are you absolutely sure tht there is no one else ?
> 
> Some of her actions and reactions seem odd.
> 
> Blowing up when you called her out when dressing up more for her friends, spending most of her time out of the house, errands taking a lot more than they should..
> 
> I can explain away the emails and GPS. Parking her car at the said place and using a different car solves the GPS problem. Deleting the mail or using a different email address when contacting with the other person should solve the other problem. Using a burner phone makes sure the calls don't show up on family account..
> 
> or she genuinely doesn't care...But there are genuine red flags and affair signs from you wife. If the reason is an affair, nothing you do will solve the issue
> 
> How is your sex life?


Reading these forums has been enlightening to say the least. I'm confident there is no one else right now. The GPS is an APP on her iphone -- which is with her all the time. She is never without it. If she had a burner, I'm not sure how she'd pay for it...I'm in charge of paying all the bills and balancing the checkbook. 

Her actions are concerning but nothing suspicious as of now.

Sex life is average to so/so I think...I wish it would be more often and higher energy...but who doesn't I suppose...


----------



## working on me

Cre8ify said:


> Apathy at this stage of the game does seem odd but there is one thing I am certain of--_It is very difficult for a man to express enough appreciation for what a SAHM does every day. _ It sounds trite but in many ways it has always been easier for me to go off to work and have a very predictable situation which I largely control. She will have all sorts of distractions and messes that keep her from having the kind or structure and normalcy she would like. I can achieve success/recognition and she plods along like a postman processing a persistent avalanche with little encouragement. And yes, my wife had time for exercise and coffee in there somewhere even as she managed every minute facet of the kid's lives.
> 
> If she is offline and passive, that may be worse than if you are having knock down, drag out arguments. IMO it is better for her to be engaged with you on the issue.
> 
> Why would she take the conflict outside of the marriage? Is there no way for her to stand up to your position on her own?


Honestly -- I think she takes conflict outside the marriage because she gets validated by her SAHM princess friends. They are all very nice women and we get along socially great, but I don't want my wife turning into that sort of women in the future.

When our kids were younger, it was chaotic for her... I get that and we got through it together. Life isn't chaotic any longer. Kids are teens and very independent and mature for their age. There's no drama...there's driving them around and helping with homework.


----------



## A Bit Much

> When our 3 kids were young, she worked very hard to keep things going. During that time I was working as hard if not harder building my business. 3-4 years of dealing with a house and little kids isn't the end I don't think...that isn't a career in my opinion.


I read this to mean that for the first half of your marriage, she was sort of a single parent. That had to be tough. And to not have SOME respect for that is kind of sad. You didn't have to worry about the kids or the house or HER for that matter, you were free to focus soley on your business because of her managing the household and your family.


----------



## working on me

Tall Average Guy said:


> Honest question - what exactly is there of what she does to respect? She does not clean, rear the children, or work. She does a lot for herself in the form of lunches with friends and yoga. So what is there to respect?
> 
> In addition to the good advice you are getting from others, such as Hicks and Tunera, consider that she has depression issues stemming from not having a goal. Work, whether it is a paying job or volunteering with a worthy group (that choice is up to you), may help her self esteem.


I agree...and I've danced around that issue but it never has traction. The SAHM club she's in really believes they are doing a lot of heavy lifting... delusional - yes. The hamster running full blast.

I've asked her numerous times to start exploring getting back to work -- she was in the ad game for years before kid #1. Her reaction to those conversations turn emotional and what an uncaring unsympathetic jerk I am...how I have no clue what it takes to keep things going blah blah...


----------



## working on me

sexy said:


> Hi working,
> 
> You are one of my favorite posters on this board, so I had to reply. I am very similar to your wife right now as far as the age of our kids (ours are 15 & 12) Our ages are probably pretty close to y'all's too. I'm 46, He's 49. Anyway, I have suffered the stay at home wife thing too, still am for the most part, and I will tell you right now, there is no tougher job. Having said that, now my kids are older and I do not have very marketable skills for the current job market. I am a college graduate (liberal arts degree) with no real job prospects, but I work part time as a substitute teacher for a nearby school district. My money could NEVER begin to approximate my husband's income. He is an engineer with NASA out in Houston, and I'm a college grad who earns about 10$/hr watching kids throw spit wads at each other. I don't work every day, but I work most days when school is in session. I also have had the weight gain, weight loss self-esteem issue thing too, and what I get from your carefully put together post is that you seem to feel taken for granted. Well I see that you are, but I don't think the damage or effect on your marriage should be SOOO drastic! Some of this stuff seems to be little stuff about how to transition from a child raising couple to a post-SAHM situation. This marriage does not strike me as one in danger of divorce as it is. Having said that, I do see the things she is doing, and I have done them (recently) in my marriage too! I am starting to lose weight too, and my progress is very slow and steady but noticeable. I have lost about 20 pounds, but I would like to lose 10 or 15 more. I 'll just have to keep pluggin. And on that thread: She said just EXACTLY the right thing to say to you!!!!! GOOD FOR HER!!! The woman who tells anyone that they are losing weight or working out for ANY person OTHER than themselves is NOT going to keep the weight off!! It really amazes me how that interaction went off. with you complimenting her and then asking her if some of her motivation was to lose weight or you. Let me let you in on a little secret: NO WOMAN LOSES WEIGHT because they are bored or not enjoying the food! WE ALL DO IT FOR OUR MAN!!! BUT we ALSO do it for OURSELVES FIRST! We can't love you if we don't love us FIRST! That's what she should have said to you. Kudos for her. She wants to be sexy for you. OF COURSE she does! what wife doesn't? Now to your clean house issue. REALLY? That's your deal breaker dude? I read another post about a man who asked where to go to look for girls who don't have a tattoo and got a laugh about the responses to tell him Dude, maybe you better just stay single. I LOVED THAT response!!!!! Sometimes just let the house stay dirty! Come home, see her and ask her about her day, rip your shirt off, shower, get yourself food, clean up after yourself, but nothing extra. Don't make too big a deal of the house. You run your own business, just upgrade your technology to one of those self-cleaning models that has its own built-in automatic laundry machines that wash, dry,fold, and put away the clothes too. jk jk jk... The fewer little battles you come up with the more things she will do for herself and you. Don't demand from her or ultimatum her. This will not fix your perceived problem. Personally I am not a great housekeeper, I'm too busy getting in and out of the shower / our bed to keep house very well There are worse problems than a dirty kitchen and an unmade bed with unfolded clothes all around my bed. I guess I'll have to hire someone to do that tomorrow. I'm too tired from all that sex. jk,jk.
> Now seriously, try to pick your battles while sorting through this transitional time. You may find that a clean house doesn't mean as much to you as you think. What do you want in order of priorities:
> more money? have her get a job. more sex? let her keep working out and worry less about clean house. cleaner house? get one of your children to do the cleaning that she has probably done for a while. She shouldn't be the only one that knows how to hold a broom or turn a stove on. My husband and kids just think I ride the broom best and no one makes gruel like ole mom! But think about some of this. When women suffer from low self esteem it usually has built up over time. It will take some time for her to fix it. Some of the best ways to so it are by: losing weight, getting fit, getting a part time job or involved in a volunteering mission, eventually finding her own slice of pie to enjoy now that that unimportant, piece of cake blowoff job of raisin' youngun's is almost over. She'll get there, just be patient, it doesn't happen over night. the more you hound her about every little thing, the less she will give you in any area of her life. get her working out regularly the both of you get in the sack and do some more workin' out, and remind her of all the things you love about her. she will give you more things to love in the future.
> well Working,
> I hope I have said something useful to you. As I said before you are one of my favorite posters here. Go Slow, be patient, and YES she DID lose weight to impress you too. We all do or we would just eat whatever we wanted when we wanted. believe me it's easier to get fat and enjoy doing it than getting skinny and not being noticed for it.
> 
> Hope this Helps


Thank you for your insights...it's appreciated.

The clean house is a symptom of the problem. The problem is she stopped caring. She doesn't take her responsibilities seriously anymore.


----------



## working on me

Emerald said:


> I think you are afraid of your wife & also what she will tell your social circle about you. Do you have skeletons in your closet?


No, not really. And there is a fear of something... I don't want to be bad mouthed by my wife to our friends. She has violated a confidence about something minor in the past and it really bothers me. She also "spins" the reality into something it's not...I'm the bad guy obviously.

My wife's biggest issues with are with religion. She's a cafeteria catholic to the nth degree and I'm more or less a agnostic/free thinker. Also, I work hard and have a tendency to play hard as well. Bottom line, we've been together for almost 30 years...those to things haven't changed.


----------



## working on me

A Bit Much said:


> I read this to mean that for the first half of your marriage, she was sort of a single parent. That had to be tough. And to not have SOME respect for that is kind of sad. You didn't have to worry about the kids or the house or HER for that matter, you were free to focus soley on your business because of her managing the household and your family.


I have told her I have the utmost respect for the job she did when the kids were young. No question that wasn't easy. But things have changed a lot in the past 10 years.

And to be fair, I came home from work and jumped right in. Cooking, dishes, baths ... whatever needed to get done we did together.


----------



## working on me

A Bit Much said:


> I read this to mean that for the first half of your marriage, she was sort of a single parent. That had to be tough. And to not have SOME respect for that is kind of sad. You didn't have to worry about the kids or the house or HER for that matter, you were free to focus soley on your business because of her managing the household and your family.


and by the way...when I said ""isn't a career" I meant that doesn't signal the end of "working" ... There has to be a post SAHM plan coming into play here soon... now that her SAHM career is coming to an end.


----------



## A Bit Much

working on me said:


> and by the way...when I said ""isn't a career" I meant that doesn't signal the end of "working" ... There has to be a post SAHM plan coming into play here soon... now that her SAHM career is coming to an end.


That's fair. Thanks for explaining what you meant.

I think she's just very comfortable. Set in her ways. It this healthy long term? No. The circumstances and family structure changes over the years. Kids grow up and move out. This is when plenty of SAHM's find themselves a little lost, because their identity was being mom and everything that comes with that. Who she was before that is in there somewhere and maybe she's having trouble with bringing that person back out. 

IDK. I'm trying to see both sides here.


----------



## Cre8ify

Many couples struggle with the empty nest because the "mothering" role changes and the "minding the home fires/nest feathering" role as well. Being there myself, I have posted at length on this subject in the past. Given that your wife has packed it in on both accounts IMO she is at some aimless, rudderless point in life. 

Has she ever seen a therapist? It would be a good place to start for her to try to find her real true self. There are some passions missing and I bet there are plenty of princesses who can get to this place by being "cared for". If skills like resourcefulness and independence of thought start to atrophy can she feel any personal growth or be oriented toward long range goals?


----------



## DTO

turnera said:


> That won't work if she has no fear he will leave.


 Or if being able to coast is what puts a smile on her face.

Kinda like when my ex and I were having issues over her sexual refusal. The only thing that would make her warm up consistently was freedom from responsibility for meeting my need.

Sounds like the OP might be in the same boat - his wife thinks it's fine to coast into retirement and expects him to be grateful for her presence and whatever little bit of participation she provides.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DTO

A Bit Much said:


> How about you work on the things you DO have control over? Her choice of friends... not much control over that. Respect of her and what she does? Absolutely. You want the same thing she wants. Appreciation. You have to give it to get it.


Well, how does that work? Are you saying she probably does more than he realizes, or that he should praise any little accomplishment? If it's the latter, I don't buy it. Everyone has to contribute and no one lives for free.

I would approach it differently. I would say that I need her to pull her contribution up to my level (i.e. putting in 50-60 hours per week in support of the family). There is no argument or implication that she does nothing- just an acknowledgement that he does more. The onus is then on her to help out or argue that it's okay for her to coast while you work hard, in which case you know where you stand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## A Bit Much

She probably does more than he realizes. It's all about perception. His and hers. He sees her doing nothing much, she probably sees him in the same way... they each have different roles/jobs. Think about how you look at a coworker of yours and their work ethic. This could be just like that.


----------



## Hicks

You spend alot of time asking her this or that about how she feels.

DONT GO THERE.... It never ever helps.

You have to decide how you want your marriage to be, how you want to operate as her husband, how you expect her to operate as your wife... Then you tell her these policies and ask her to make her own choice whether she is in or out... Really that is all there is to it.

Wallowing in it, accepting in it, you are failing her test. She is waiting for you to take charge, trust me.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

working on me said:


> if I'm going to be really really honest with myself, the fear of the fallout is pretty big for me. She would go to our mutual friends and bad mouth me -- I'm being an unreasonable dck etc. That concerns me ...and I'm not sure why.
> 
> She's also go to my family and rag as well.
> 
> I don't trust that we can have a conversation about these issues and it stay between the 2 of us. She would need some validation from her peer SAHM's that I'm a pig.
> 
> I think I could handle her fallout, but I don't trust it being spun and spread to our social circle and that impact... is that reasonable?


Not really. I think your fears in this area are way out of proportion.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

working on me said:


> I have been trying to implement that... kids need to be involved in the day to day running of the house. Problem is my wife doesn't follow through and insure it's being done correctly -- that's why I think she's stopped caring and is complacent...almost apathetic sometimes. phrases like "What's the big deal" "You're too picky" "relax a little" are heard frequently...


Yep, I get the same thing. I set up goals and then I coordinate with my wife during the day to help keep everyone on track. Sort of a second job


----------



## lovelygirl

working on me said:


> No, not really. * And there is a fear of something... I don't want to be bad mouthed by my wife to our friends. She has violated a confidence about something minor in the past and it really bothers me. *She also "spins" the reality into something it's not...I'm the bad guy obviously.


To me this is the biggest issue your wife has and everything comes after this. 
She's not reliable and she has proved to betray your trust.

She doesn't consider/take you into account. She has probably put you on 'ignore' list.[Assuming she's not cheating]


----------



## Tall Average Guy

A Bit Much said:


> She probably does more than he realizes. It's all about perception. His and hers. He sees her doing nothing much, she probably sees him in the same way... they each have different roles/jobs. Think about how you look at a coworker of yours and their work ethic. This could be just like that.


I don't think this works. She does not see him while at work, so how can she judge what he does there? His paycheck shows he is at least doing his part. On the other hand, he can see what she is doing, or not doing, at home. 

If she views him as nothing more than a paycheck (and one that she looks down on at that), then perhaps cutting off the money is one way to get her attention.


----------



## working on me

Hicks said:


> You spend alot of time asking her this or that about how she feels.
> 
> DONT GO THERE.... It never ever helps.
> 
> You have to decide how you want your marriage to be, how you want to operate as her husband, how you expect her to operate as your wife... Then you tell her these policies and ask her to make her own choice whether she is in or out... Really that is all there is to it.
> 
> Wallowing in it, accepting in it, you are failing her test. She is waiting for you to take charge, trust me.


you're right...this has worn me down and I need to re-engage. I find myself being crabby because of what's going on which probably only continues the cycle.


----------



## working on me

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Not really. I think your fears in this area are way out of proportion.


Fair enough...this something I need to consider. 

The time she did violate my trust (again not a major issue per se, but I specifically asked her not to) she attempted to make amends by becoming extremely sensual an sexual for a few days or a week... I lapped it up like a thirsty dog and we moved on.

I wish she were like that without the motivation of me being legitimately po'd at her.


----------



## working on me

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Yep, I get the same thing. I set up goals and then I coordinate with my wife during the day to help keep everyone on track. Sort of a second job


I'm thinking we need to get on the same page with regards to scheduling and procedures. 

We also need to get on the same page and agree what's acceptable for our home. I believe the care free attitude with basic clutter and housekeeping sets a bad example for our kids. I was brought up in a tiny house with lots of people (6 kids and a grandma upstairs) and we were always kept our house in good shape. it really was about respect -- for our home and for our parents.

When I left for work this morning, our dining room table looks like a laundromat... family room looks like the periodical section at the library and the kitchen island looks like a shared desk of a few slobs.... I'll come home today to basically the same thing and I'd be lying if I said that doesn't bug me...


----------



## working on me

Tall Average Guy said:


> I don't think this works. She does not see him while at work, so how can she judge what he does there? His paycheck shows he is at least doing his part. On the other hand, he can see what she is doing, or not doing, at home.
> 
> If she views him as nothing more than a paycheck (and one that she looks down on at that), then perhaps cutting off the money is one way to get her attention.


She has no idea...honestly. She asked once to explain my business to her and was genuinely curious. I think she gets questions from her friends about my biz and she wants to answer them a little better.

I explained the reality of running a business. Logistics around the world ... Responsible for 50+ people and the P&L that is a constant stress etc etc... needless to say she sorta realized that it's more than laundry and taxi service...but that impression soon lost traction and she went back to normal... which is a a poor me mode. That "poor me" mode aggravates me beyond belief.


----------



## turnera

working on me said:


> she attempted to make amends by becoming extremely sensual an sexual for a few days or a week... I lapped it up like a thirsty dog and we moved on.
> 
> I wish she were like that without the motivation of me being legitimately po'd at her.


 Tell her that. Tell her EXACTLY that.


----------



## turnera

working on me said:


> When I left for work this morning, our dining room table looks like a laundromat... family room looks like the periodical section at the library and the kitchen island looks like a shared desk of a few slobs.... I'll come home today to basically the same thing and I'd be lying if I said that doesn't bug me...


 Tell her that.


----------



## turnera

You didn't address my suggestions several pages back.


----------



## Cre8ify

> That "poor me" mode aggravates me beyond belief.


I call that victim status which can be used to rationalize all sorts of bad behavior. When I see it in my kids I call it out and explain that no, the world isn't fair. Buck up and get over it. A different matter with my wife as I don't have the same "coach" position and I have to listen to a certain amount of complaining. There are limits though and I have offered her some cheese with that "whine" plenty of times.



> I explained the reality of running a business. Logistics around the world ... Responsible for 50+ people and the P&L that is a constant stress etc etc... needless to say she sorta realized that it's more than laundry and taxi service


Times are good now but my business was to he11 and back since 2008. She has no idea the "scale" of the decisions I have to make in my work life and there would be no way to enlighten her. When I was taking pay cuts, I know she didn't hear poor me mode. I chalk that up to being a steady paternal leader of the family--we insulate them from all those bumps in the road and its best that way. I don't think we get awards for that, it will take a different approach to get her to up her game.


----------



## working on me

turnera said:


> The first thing I would do is stop giving her money. I'm serious. "Honey, it looks like you no longer take pride in performing YOUR half of our bargain - being a homemaker. So I'm going to redo our finances and put the money you are used to spending into hiring a caretaker for our home. If you need money to spend on your outings, feel free to get a job."
> 
> And THEN DO IT.
> 
> It sounds like you read MMSL for a reason - you're a beta male who doesn't know how to take what he wants. Time to change that, or she'll start bringing her boyfriends home.


Sorry Turnera...you're right I did not address this. Probably because I'm still digesting this ... it is more aggressive than I would have thought of myself...

I've addressed my issues about stirring the pot with her and the fallout that would ensue. I need to get over that because living like this is worse than living with the fallout -- which may never happen anyway.

I've been proud of being the provider for my family. I'm beginning to see that my wife is abusing that for real.

Thanks for your perspective...


----------



## A Bit Much

Tall Average Guy said:


> I don't think this works. She does not see him while at work, so how can she judge what he does there? His paycheck shows he is at least doing his part. On the other hand, he can see what she is doing, or not doing, at home.
> 
> If she views him as nothing more than a paycheck (and one that she looks down on at that), then perhaps cutting off the money is one way to get her attention.


Fair enough.

The bottom line is neither of them respect the other. Maybe he has a good reason not to, and she doesn't have one, but it changes nothing. They need to get on the same page somehow.


----------



## turnera

So...are you going to tell her something has to change?


----------



## working on me

turnera said:


> So...are you going to tell her something has to change?


Yes...

Between your suggestions and Hicks, I'm going to figure out a plan...

Hicks said:

_You have to decide how you want your marriage to be, how you want to operate as her husband, how you expect her to operate as your wife... Then you tell her these policies and ask her to make her own choice whether she is in or out... Really that is all there is to it.

Wallowing in it, accepting in it, you are failing her test. She is waiting for you to take charge, trust me._​


----------



## working on me

working on me said:


> Yes...
> 
> Between your suggestions and Hicks, I'm going to figure out a plan...
> 
> Hicks said:
> 
> _You have to decide how you want your marriage to be, how you want to operate as her husband, how you expect her to operate as your wife... Then you tell her these policies and ask her to make her own choice whether she is in or out... Really that is all there is to it.
> 
> Wallowing in it, accepting in it, you are failing her test. She is waiting for you to take charge, trust me._​


Been working on things on my end... I've seen some positive response for the most part. 

I've tried to help her with budgeting -- she really has forgotten the concept of a budget. I told her she was lucky -- some of her friends budget well and don't have a safety net of cash like she does when things suddenly come up. I've tried to tell her not all things suddenly come up if you’re efficient...it takes time and effort to project what expenses are coming up and spend/plan accordingly. Gave her examples of how I budget 2-3 months in advance for my part of our family finances. She kinda/sorta got it.

I've been working on getting her on-board with minimum standards of care for the house. I'm getting the kids on board too and I'm noticing that she's responsible for most of the clutter! I’m starting with horizontal surfaces and what’s “normal” and what’s “clutter”. Next will be floors …cabinets etc… making progress, even if small and slow, is enough motivation to keep calm and patient. I realize she won’t change overnight on this.

An interesting dynamic has been happening too and I have a question about that. I've been working hard on *not* being crabby and not getting caught up in petty little arguments that seem to happen. While trying hard to stay out of those arguments, I'm starting to see a pattern.

Old Pattern:

Wife - says something that bothers me or pushes my buttons (she says it’s not intentional what kind of person do I think she is)
Me - explains why that bugs me
Wife - Oh please, you're being sensitive or insensitive.
Me - round and round it goes. Talk talk talk ourselves into an argument.

New Pattern

Wife - Says something that bothers me or pushes my button (she says it’s not intentional what kind of person do I think she is)
Me - make a joke and take it lightly
Wife - VERY STERN COMEBACK
Me - ignore or make a face and keep doing what I'm doing.
Wife – Pouts and stomps around for 15 minutes and then back to normal.

2 of the "stern comebacks" from here were "STOP IT RIGHT NOW" ...as if she were talking to a child. I told her please don't talk to me like that... she responded that I shouldn't talk to her the way I did just prior. 

Bottom line….I've called her out and she does NOT like it. Short pithy responses to her bait really makes her mad. 

When she responds that I’m being disrespectful by making light of her original comment / complaint / test what should I say back? 

That’s our pattern. She consciously or unconsciously baits me…I take the bait and an argument over nothing ensues.

If I don’t take the bait and respond with a “meh”, I’m accused of being disrespectful and scolded.


----------



## turnera

working on me said:


> Short pithy responses to her bait really makes her mad. When she responds that I’m being disrespectful by making light of her original comment / complaint / test what should I say back?


"Wife, I am not responsible for your feelings - you are."


----------



## turnera

Honestly, I'd just say 'You're baiting me again. Not gonna work any more.' And walk away. Point out what she's doing.


----------



## northernlights

I quoted a conversation between me and my husband on here once, and someone pointed out how I was falling for his bait. I had always felt like I *had* to respond to it (what he said was unfair! How could I just ignore it?!), but she told me to just ignore it. Oh my gosh, it was the best advice ever. So freeing to not let them get to you like that!!


----------



## working on me

turnera said:


> Honestly, I'd just say 'You're baiting me again. Not gonna work any more.' And walk away. Point out what she's doing.


I get it...It will take some practice because most of the time it's personal or some teenie tiny criticism masked as small talk.

Not that it matters, but thinking about this lately has me remembering a conversation I've had about the Myers Briggs personality test. I'm an INTJ -- very much I for introverted. I always thought being introverted was a negative and something I had to work on. 

I have a psychology major friend who's very much into the MB personality types. She told me that I'm 100% wrong. Introversion isn't a bad thing unless it interferes with living your life... She said extroverts are not all perfect or the desirable trait either....many "E's" suffer from talk first and think later syndrome and they get in trouble with that...

My wife is my polar opposite... I'm 97% I...she's 97% E for extrovert.

So when I perceive she's talking out of her rear end to me or someone else, I always feel the need to "counsel" her on her manners and tact. Rarely does that go well.


----------



## Traveller321

northernlights said:


> I quoted a conversation between me and my husband on here once, and someone pointed out how I was falling for his bait. I had always felt like I *had* to respond to it (what he said was unfair! How could I just ignore it?!), but she told me to just ignore it. Oh my gosh, it was the best advice ever. So freeing to not let them get to you like that!!


My wife baits me constantly. I have learned to just not respond. I don't want to escalate or argue anymore. She is a classic button pusher, and I used to fall for it. No more.


----------



## working on me

northernlights said:


> I quoted a conversation between me and my husband on here once, and someone pointed out how I was falling for his bait. I had always felt like I *had* to respond to it (what he said was unfair! How could I just ignore it?!), but she told me to just ignore it. Oh my gosh, it was the best advice ever. So freeing to not let them get to you like that!!


I'm beginning to realize I'm falling into that trap myself...

it's really hard for me to hear something that's wrong or in bad form and not respond and try to point out the issue.


----------



## working on me

turnera said:


> "Wife, I am not responsible for your feelings - you are."


I need to keep telling myself that. She's been getting in drama with the kids so much lately. Debating them, arguing with them etc.

That puts her in a crap mood. I always try to fix it and help her and get her out of her rut when that happens.

Never works and always ends up creating more tension and bad moods.


----------



## Emerald

working on me said:


> I need to keep telling myself that. She's been getting in drama with the kids so much lately. Debating them, arguing with them etc.
> 
> That puts her in a crap mood. I always try to fix it and help her and get her out of her rut when that happens.
> 
> Never works and always ends up creating more tension and bad moods.


Never argue or engage with teens and pre-teens. They are like little lawyers.

Tell her this during a calm moment & stop trying to "fix" that one. I can just see you in the middle making it all worse.

Parents need to take a united front or the teens will manipulate between parents.


----------



## working on me

Emerald said:


> Never argue or engage with teens and pre-teens. They are like little lawyers.
> 
> Tell her this during a calm moment & stop trying to "fix" that one. I can just see you in the middle making it all worse.
> 
> Parents need to take a united front or the teens will manipulate between parents.


I agree with you 100%. 

I'm going to avoid those situations from now on. My wife and kids can frustrate one another like you wouldn't believe. I've taken the calm times and talked about how I never debate or argue with the kids. I've told her to take a deep breath and think about their interaction and how it's always always tense. She hates it...kids hate it too. They are getting used to a cluttered, unstructured frustrated household and figuring out how to get what they want with her....lawyers in the making!

She disagrees mostly and further, she thinks she can turn off the frustration when the kids go to bed and it's our time... not a chance.


----------



## turnera

working on me said:


> So when I perceive she's talking out of her rear end to me or someone else, I always feel the need to "counsel" her on her manners and tact. Rarely does that go well.


 And...who died and made you God? Right?

Why is YOUR way the right way? She is who she is. What you have to do is learn better coping skills, but you may want to do some thinking on why you feel a need to 'fix' her - that may be part of why you two aren't getting along.


----------



## turnera

working on me said:


> I need to keep telling myself that. She's been getting in drama with the kids so much lately. Debating them, arguing with them etc.
> 
> That puts her in a crap mood. I always try to fix it and help her and get her out of her rut when that happens.
> 
> Never works and always ends up creating more tension and bad moods.


 Again, you have put her in a child position and you continue to treat her that way. 

Learn to SHUT UP.


----------



## turnera

working on me said:


> They are getting used to a cluttered, unstructured frustrated household


Now THAT, you have control over. Nope, no TV until your clothes are hung up. Nope, phone is mine until the homework is in my hands. Nope, you're not going to John's house until the dishwasher is full and turned on.


----------



## working on me

turnera said:


> Again, you have put her in a child position and you continue to treat her that way.
> 
> Learn to SHUT UP.


You are right....

Thank you turnera and everyone for your honest feedback.... it helps.


----------



## working on me

turnera said:


> And...who died and made you God? Right?
> 
> Why is YOUR way the right way? She is who she is. What you have to do is learn better coping skills, but you may want to do some thinking on why you feel a need to 'fix' her - that may be part of why you two aren't getting along.


I'm really struggling with this lately. 

We've had a reasonably good couple of weeks ... she's had her ups and downs and I've been pretty disciplined with staying out of the drama.

But, the last couple of days we've been butting heads. I'm not sure if it's me needing to "fix" her .... or we are looking at the world with totally different perspectives and expectations.

A couple of things came up with the kids and house etc. I always have the mindset of take care of issues immediately. Further, do things exactly right and the ultimate outcome will be the best. It works for me in my business and has worked in my personal life too. Doing things half assed always had some negative kickback. I used to do the minimum...now I try to do the maximum. That mindset has really been an improvement for me.

My wife fights...and I mean fights when I push to do things at a higher level. Or to challenge our kids to do better...push harder...expect more. 

Her indifference really beat me up the last few days. There were a handful of situations where I was expecting more from the kids or her and it really fired her up. 

For example, our one son (almost 12) wants to quit a sport before he has completed his commitment. It's a multi-year martial arts program and he signed up for it about 1 year ago. It wasn't cheap. He went through the process and the school accepted him to continue on. He’s only ¼ of the way through and wants to pull the plu.

I know his reasons for quitting aren't good enough. yes, it is hard...yes it's a long time. I needed to challenge him to really look at what's behind his wanting quitting. You'd think I was the worst dad in the world. My wife thinks if he wants out -- he should be allowed to quit – no questions asked. I might agree if he gave me better reasons than “I’m done”.

Anyway… there has to be a fine line between me wanting to fix her (which I don’t want to do) and me wanting to have high enough expectations for our kids and each other.

Thanks for listening…


----------



## turnera

> I always have the mindset of take care of issues immediately. Further, do things exactly right and the ultimate outcome will be the best. It works for me in my business and has worked in my personal life too.


I beg to differ. Or you would not be here, would you?

Now, when it comes to kids, I advocate for standing your ground, when you are the one expecting more from them. The #1 way to harm a child is to give in to them, to make life easy on them just because you don't want to hurt their feelings or see them sad or whatever. You are NOT doing them a favor. IIWY, I would tell your wife AND your son that he made an agreement and barring a valid reason, you expect him to keep at least half of the term, as he promised to do. Once he has reached the halfway mark, he can negotiate to quit it. Do NOT let your wife dictate on this. She and he need you to be the leader in your family.

That said, I think that your hardline stance on everything else sounds a bit controlling and, frankly, rude and selfish. YOUR way is the right way, anyone who disagrees is just wrong? Uh, no.

I suggest you put your foot down about the program and then extend an olive branch on what ways the 3 of you can negotiate other things in your lives.


----------



## working on me

turnera said:


> I beg to differ. Or you would not be here, would you?
> 
> Now, when it comes to kids, I advocate for standing your ground, when you are the one expecting more from them. The #1 way to harm a child is to give in to them, to make life easy on them just because you don't want to hurt their feelings or see them sad or whatever. You are NOT doing them a favor. IIWY, I would tell your wife AND your son that he made an agreement and barring a valid reason, you expect him to keep at least half of the term, as he promised to do. Once he has reached the halfway mark, he can negotiate to quit it. Do NOT let your wife dictate on this. She and he need you to be the leader in your family.
> 
> That said, I think that your hardline stance on everything else sounds a bit controlling and, frankly, rude and selfish. YOUR way is the right way, anyone who disagrees is just wrong? Uh, no.
> 
> I suggest you put your foot down about the program and then extend an olive branch on what ways the 3 of you can negotiate other things in your lives.


Turera...

I really do appreciate all your feedback in this thread. 

But, I must have expressed myself poorly because I absolutely do not take a hard-line stance on everything. I'm beginning to state my opinions more clearly to my wife. I'm stating my expectations more clearly so I don't feel like I'm being taken advantage of. She's developed this apathy...this "don't care" ...it's good enough... indifference.... 

Further, most of the issues that have come up deal with "quality" things. Personally I think our kids doing home work in front of the TV is insane. Our one son likes to do home work in the kitchen while a lot is going on. I stated my opinion and let it be....report cards came out and they were not pretty. The structure of the after school time my wife has established isn't working. 

The same goes for the housekeeping and organization around the house. I didn't grow up in a house where being a slob was ok... it's disrespectful.

I was a nice guy getting taken advantage of in the beginning of this thread...I don't think I turned into a selfish, rude controlling jerk this quickly!

Thanks again...


----------



## turnera

Thanks for clarifying. What happens when you express your belief? What does she do? What changes?


----------



## working on me

turnera said:


> Thanks for clarifying. What happens when you express your belief? What does she do? What changes?


Typically -- I get a variation of :

1. You're too picky
2. Relax...what's the big deal
3. It doesn't really matter...chill

So far, not a lot has changed. That's my next step I think. I express my perspective. She can take it or leave it...and we'll have to address the outcomes in due course. The quitting the martial arts will have long term consequences. The report cards and academics is obvious... 

And if I'm going to be really really honest with myself, that indifference/apathy has now begun to show up in the intimacy department and in our bedroom....I need to learn from other threads ( like LifeScripts) that explaining stuff and trying to convince her will never work -- especially in the intimacy dept.


----------



## turnera

Ok, then, it's your method of communication that is not working. You don't go to someone like that and say 'I don't like the way this is.' And then wait for them to agree and work to fix it with you. You say 'I'm unhappy with this and we have to sit down and come up with a compromise we are both ok with. What is your bottom line? Here's mine.' Just telling her you're unhappy puts you beholden to her. Which will never work.


----------



## working on me

turnera said:


> Ok, then, it's your method of communication that is not working. You don't go to someone like that and say 'I don't like the way this is.' And then wait for them to agree and work to fix it with you. You say 'I'm unhappy with this and we have to sit down and come up with a compromise we are both ok with. What is your bottom line? Here's mine.' Just telling her you're unhappy puts you beholden to her. Which will never work.


makes sense I guess...

I was going with the "I'm not okay with this" stance that Conrad talks about in that LifeScript thread....and don't talk so much. Don't explain so much. 

I realize our situations are very different, I just really thought that was a direct hit.


----------



## turnera

Yeah, but you wanted something to change and you had to rely on her to change. I think Conrad is usually talking about situations in which you are not with the spouse any more, so it doesn't matter what they do or what they want.

How much reading have you done about communication? That's probably the best place for you to start.


----------



## working on me

turnera said:


> Yeah, but you wanted something to change and you had to rely on her to change. I think Conrad is usually talking about situations in which you are not with the spouse any more, so it doesn't matter what they do or what they want.
> 
> How much reading have you done about communication? That's probably the best place for you to start.


I'm currently reading "When I say no, I feel guilty". I've also read MMSL, N.U.T.S., NMMNG.

And you're right, I'm relying/hoping on her to change ...that may be my problem. I don't know.


----------



## turnera

Ok, so we know you have a self esteem issue, then. You have trouble believing you deserve better than this. If you've read that much and still are begging and hoping for scraps from her, it seems obvious that your only best hope is to get into real counseling to learn to love yourself. Once you do, it won't matter what she does, if she changes - because you'll be ok no matter what she does. Are you in counseling?


----------



## working on me

turnera said:


> Ok, so we know you have a self esteem issue, then. You have trouble believing you deserve better than this. If you've read that much and still are begging and hoping for scraps from her, it seems obvious that your only best hope is to get into real counseling to learn to love yourself. Once you do, it won't matter what she does, if she changes - because you'll be ok no matter what she does. Are you in counseling?


I was in counseling a couple of times...the latest was about 2 years ago. I was harboring some serious resentment towards my wife and I really didn't like myself. The therapist I had wasn't great. Both therapists gave me the "Life isn't always Fair" feedback. "Grin and Bear it" type stuff. 

I took a break and began searching online and found this site as well as others. Everything I've read / learned makes a lot of sense...but executing it is challenging...

How does one find a "real" therapist? And by that I mean, someone who gets it...


----------



## A Bit Much

> I took a break and began searching online and found this site as well as others. Everything I've read / learned makes a lot of sense...but executing it is challenging...


It's been 2 months since you started this thread, and you've gotten some pretty good advice here. What about your relationship has changed? Anything? Have you implemented any of the suggestions that have been offered?

I guess, my thinking is if you want things to change, you have to be the initiator and change your approach to your problems with your wife. If she's not doing anything different, I'm thinking it's because you aren't either.


----------



## turnera

To find a good therapist, google psychologist + your city + reviews. Pick the one that has the best reviews.


----------



## working on me

A Bit Much said:


> It's been 2 months since you started this thread, and you've gotten some pretty good advice here. What about your relationship has changed? Anything? Have you implemented any of the suggestions that have been offered?
> 
> I guess, my thinking is if you want things to change, you have to be the initiator and change your approach to your problems with your wife. If she's not doing anything different, I'm thinking it's because you aren't either.


I think things were changing for the better...and then it feels we had a little setback. I need to be very conscious about my behavior or I slip back into pushover mode very easily...

I really thought changing myself would be easy and fast, but it's a process. I've been hitting they gym hard. Upgraded my wardrobe significantly ...and continued my guy friend outings/interactions. I'm also throwing myself into my golf game to attempt to get competitive once again.

After giving it some thought, I think the main issue that causes us pain is a difference in opinion on what's good enough and what's not good enough... And I mean that across everything in our lives. 

Is it okay for our kid to quit a sport he committed to? 
Is it okay to let the kids be slobs and our house be clutterville.
Is it okay to prioritize activities outside the home over duties at home.
Is it okay for kids to do homework in a distracted environment ...and get a crap report card.


Last night we had a small disagreement about cooking. I'm the cook in my house for the most part. My dad was a fireman and was an excellent cook. He taught me and I continued to learn as I got older. We're preparing a dish for a dinner party and my wife insisted she make the dish....No Problem. Have at it. I was thankful.

But, I can't keep my mouth shut when she's prepping stuff half azz. Recipe calls for a Bolognese sauce with chopped onion, clery and carrot. She dumps it all in the food processor and whizzes it to mush... I said I'd chop it, but she insisted it would be good enough. It's not going to be ruined, but it's really not gonna be a high quality dish. It would have taken me 10 min. to chop and prep. 

For me, that's lazy...that's half azz. And that bugs me....

As I mentioned before, I've got to find the line when it's appropriate to challenge whether something is good enough (Sons quitting) and when to shut the eff up...(cooking example?).

I get in a mode, especially at work, where I'm the ultimate quality control guy... I guess I need to turn that off or learn to regulate it? 

Having a hard time with "I'm not okay with that" and shutting up too... it made perfect sense. I actually re-read that LifeScript thread and there sure is excellent relationship advice in there.

Thanks for the feedback all...it's appreciated.


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## turnera

You sound like a control freak, frankly. And I mean that in the nicest way. 

If the way a dish is prepared is THAT important to you, by all means, don't let her start on it. 

That said, when it comes to kids, you really need to get on the same page. Do NOT give up until you have both reached an agreement on what your kids' rules will be.


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## working on me

turnera said:


> You sound like a control freak, frankly. And I mean that in the nicest way.
> 
> If the way a dish is prepared is THAT important to you, by all means, don't let her start on it.
> 
> That said, when it comes to kids, you really need to get on the same page. Do NOT give up until you have both reached an agreement on what your kids' rules will be.


Fair enough. Is control freak and perfectionist the same thing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Yes.

Never fair to the other person who ISN'T. 

My H used to come BEHIND me after I mowed and RE-mow because my lines weren't straight enough, or I'd leave a sprig or two of grass sticking up. 

I don't mow any more.


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## A Bit Much

I think this is where the phrase "If you want something done right, do it yourself" originated from. 

In your case OP, the 'right' part actually means YOUR WAY.


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