# She Keeps saying it was on mistake in 15 years



## stevekimsly

15 years of happy marriage and 3 kids (both of us admit to having a 9/10 marriage in all aspects). I was happy with my wife and she says she was happy with me. 

My wife goes out on a girls night while with three of my female co-workers as I watch the kids. I wake up at 5am to a phone call from her staying she is getting a cab home that she fell asleep at one of my male co-workers house and that her friends (my co-workers) had left her. 

I knew something was up because this is the first time she hasn't made it home. She was acting funny but I wrote it off as a hangover. The next day at work I confronted a co-worker about ditching my wife and said I was disappointing in them for not looking after my wife... She started crying and apologizing... I knew my wife had cheated on me. I confronted my wife and she told me she had taken some medication and liquor and went clubbing with the girls. Later in the evening they randomly met up with a male co-worker of mine and some of his friends. They ended up at his house and she ended up cheating on me with one of his friends (10+ years younger than her). She can and cant remember some of the night after the clubs but does remember at the house kissing/fondling and asking the kid a to wear a condom. She is taking full responsibility for her "mistake". She has answered any question I have had, albeit difficult. 

The betrayal was horrible, my co-workers apparently not calling me or helping her to get out of the situation is makes it even worse. I feel not only betrayed by my wife, but my co-workers/friends.

She has never (and still doesn't) keep passwords to facebook/email/or anything from me. She is willing to do anything to save the marriage and says that is was only one mistake in 15 years that she thinks she deserves a second chance. Its been two months and I don't seem to be getting better. 

I married up (that is to say that she is better looking than me) she has her degree and is hyper intelligent. I am just an average guy who is a good guy. Now I feel like I need to compete -- I need to get in better shape (she has never complained or even mentioned this) but the guy she slept with was young and in shape. I feel I need to finish my degree. I feel I need to become "better" than she is to move forward so I feel like either A) She will "want" me and this wont happen again or B) If it happens again I will still be marketable in my late 30.

I don't have a real question other than does it get better... should I give her a second chance? Is it normal to feel like changing my whole lifestyle to not mimic the way it was before?


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## SomedayDig

When did this happen Steve?


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## stevekimsly

Two months ago.


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## MovingAhead

Steve,

You can't make her want you. You can be come better and stronger but you cannot make someone want you. The second chance is your decision alone. Don't let people where vote in some silly pole or some nonsense.

Take an honest look at your marriage. Look at what you have. Determine if she is truly remorseful and then decide what you want in life. This decision does not have to be made in a day. If you can get past this, then R is a great option.

I know this is hard and it hurts, but don't lash out at her in pain. If she loves you, she will be in pain enough for bringing hurt to your family. Focus on getting better for your own well being.

As for the friends/coworkers, they ain't friends!


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## Maricha75

SomedayDig said:


> When did this happen Steve?


It was 2 months ago, Dig.

Steve, it is absolutely normal to feel the way you do right now. And honestly, no one would fault you for choosing NOT continue with your marriage, if that is the route you go.

So, how are you going about making sure this never happens again, as long as you are with her? Please tell me that GNO are HISTORY as of that night? If not, you need to end them. These women did nothing to stop her, even seeing she was visibly intoxicated. Not marriage friendly friends, IMO. 

That's not to say she can't have ANY friends, nor that she cannot go out with friends... but certain situations are out of the question: bars/clubs, other men's homes (without you), etc. Things have changed, obviously. And, certain things will need to remain changed. 

But, in the end, she needs to come to the realization that she doesn't DESERVE a second chance... she can hope for it, of course. But the ball is, ultimately, in YOUR court. YOU hold the cards in this situation...and if you cannot reconcile, that is absolutely your right. And no one can fault you if you choose that course of action.

Does it get better? For some, yes. But not for everyone. Regardless, it will take time... much more than the two months you have had thus far.


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## workindad

Did she get tested for stds? If not that should be an early priority. Take care of her and your health. 

Every person is different. One time may be a deal breaker for you or it may not be? Is she remorseful? Have there been any other gnos. Also are you sure this was one time. It doesn't sound like she was going to confess without being pressed by you. Ask her if she will take a polygraph. Judged her reaction. You may be surprised by newly remembered details.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## walkonmars

What kind of medication did she take? Is it OTC or prescribed?

Something is wrong with her story from my POV. It appears she wants to sell the story that she was incapacitated to a great degree. Yet she had the presence of mind to require the use of a condom?

It may be that the young dude normally uses a condom - but he would be a rare bird. 

It's disappointing that your co-workers didn't intervene - perhaps they tried but were rebuffed? 

Since it's, by now, known to your workmates that your wife - under the right circumstances - may be available - I think it's prudent that they are off-limits. 

Get yourselves into MC - your job may provide benefits for this. It's probably a good idea to get some STI testing done too. The condom use is suspect.


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## bryanp

You both need to get tested for STD's.

From how your wife is approaching this and what you have written tells me down deep that she thought if she ever cheated on you and had sex with another man then you would forgive her anyway so she really had nothing to lose. The fact that she immediately brought up it was her first mistake in 15 years so you need to forgive and accept it tells me that she has been holding this card for a while. By the way this is the first mistake that you know of.

If the roles were reversed would your wife have told you hey I will forgive you since this is your first mistake?

I think there is way more to this story. How nice that she can claim it was a combination of drinking and medication. Immediately she has an excuse. I think it is possible this was pre-planned with this guy since her co-workers seemed to think it was both consensual. I am telling you Steve there is more to this story. She wanted this younger guy and set up a perfect opportunity to carry it out. Why did she not simply call you?

So she gets to screw this hot young guy all night and then tell you in the morning it was only her first mistake in 15 years so you have to forgive her. What is wrong with this picture?


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## badmemory

I trust that as part of her consequences, that you have insisted that she have no contact with these enabling co-workers. In fact, because of them, I would tell her that she needs to find another job and give her a deadline. That's quite a toxic group that you are dealing with.

Did you expose the affair? Did she write a no-contact letter to the POSOM? Is she now completely transparent with her communications and activities?

If all this has happened and she's accepted it, you're in a much better position to judge her remorse. Then, you can make your decision to R, without as many lingering doubts about her sincerity. Once there, the choice is yours and only yours.


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## SomedayDig

Steve...2 months is still pretty raw to be feeling this, so make sure that as you read these posts, don't run from anything that might scare ya. 

First, let me say and all the people here will tell you, I am like a posterboy for Reconciliation. That said, I don't pull punches when I ask questions or give "advice". Yeah - in quotes, cuz this is afterall, an anonymous internet forum and everything said isn't always the best. Even from me - gasp!

The problem I have is this whole GNO thing. See, initially a GNO is pretty harmless. They go out and have a few drinks and socialize TOGETHER. Problem comes is when they do it a few times a year. All it takes is ONE of the chicks to get hit on and it's like a switch is thrown. They may feign disgust, but the attention is fantastic. The line simply gets moved a little bit each GNO. "I won't talk to a guy"..."I won't let a guy buy me a drink"..."I won't dance with a guy". All of those lines keep getting moved with each outting where they feel more comfortable with each other and know they got each other's backs.

So. The question is: How long have GNO's been going on and what HASN'T she told you about in the past.

I ask this because my own wife downplayed GNO every single f'ng time. Oh, just having fun. Til after Dday and I asked. Then it was...well, it wasn't a big deal really. Then, "well I liked it when guys noticed me"...and then, "well we only danced".

The line gets pushed a little more.

Like Boromir said, "One does not merely walk into Mordor"...one does not merely make out and bonk a guy. There IS a build up. It started somewhere.

Your job is to find out truly WHEN that started. You are going to be introduced to trickle truth. The thing where they tell you something, but not all of it, cuz...well...they don't want to "hurt" you. Until, you get a little more truth and it's the cover up that hurts WAAAYYY more than what they actually did.

Bud - you gotta sit her down and look her dead in the eye and tell her "It's go time". Tell her she needs to talk about why she truly did this. 

A mistake is when ya hit your thumb with a hammer, not ask someone to put on a condom.


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## southernsurf

stevekimsly said:


> I don't have a real question other than does it get better... should I give her a second chance? Is it normal to feel like changing my whole lifestyle to not mimic the way it was before?


The short answer is no, it will not get better; you will have to learn to live with the memory, pain and betrayal. In time (years for some) you will get better at dealing with it but it will never go away. The memory of DD will be fresh with you for the rest of your life. Regarding your marriage, the one you had is now over, that doesn’t mean you cannot reconcile and fix a new marriage…….if you want to, only you can decide whether you can or want to deal with it, and if its worth fixing. I would STOP GNO immediately, a bunch of married chicks going out drinking on a regular basis sooner or later ends in disaster. People here will help you deal with this, its no fun.


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## jh52

bryanp said:


> You both need to get tested for STD's.
> 
> From how your wife is approaching this and what you have written tells me down deep that she thought if she ever cheated on you and had sex with another man then you would forgive her anyway so she really had nothing to lose. The fact that she immediately brought up it was her first mistake in 15 years so you need to forgive and accept it tells me that she has been holding this card for a while. By the way this is the first mistake that you know of.
> 
> If the roles were reversed would your wife have told you hey I will forgive you since this is your first mistake?
> 
> I think there is way more to this story. How nice that she can claim it was a combination of drinking and medication. Immediately she has an excuse. I think it is possible this was pre-planned with this guy since her co-workers seemed to think it was both consensual. I am telling you Steve there is more to this story. She wanted this younger guy and set up a perfect opportunity to carry it out. Why did she not simply call you?
> 
> So she gets to screw this hot young guy all night and then tell you in the morning it was only her first mistake in 15 years so you have to forgive her. What is wrong with this picture?


BP -- I was trying to respond back -- but everthing you said is in my mind as well. Something is just not at all adding up to her story. 

I agree with you 100% ------

:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Hicks

Your mind does not compute with her explanation.
A happily married wife does not risk all by mistake.
With nothing to work on as to the reason why this occured, you will never feel safe in your marriage.


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## jh52

SomedayDig said:


> Steve...2 months is still pretty raw to be feeling this, so make sure that as you read these posts, don't run from anything that might scare ya.
> 
> First, let me say and all the people here will tell you, I am like a posterboy for Reconciliation. That said, I don't pull punches when I ask questions or give "advice". Yeah - in quotes, cuz this is afterall, an anonymous internet forum and everything said isn't always the best. Even from me - gasp!
> 
> The problem I have is this whole GNO thing. See, initially a GNO is pretty harmless. They go out and have a few drinks and socialize TOGETHER. Problem comes is when they do it a few times a year. All it takes is ONE of the chicks to get hit on and it's like a switch is thrown. They may feign disgust, but the attention is fantastic. The line simply gets moved a little bit each GNO. "I won't talk to a guy"..."I won't let a guy buy me a drink"..."I won't dance with a guy". All of those lines keep getting moved with each outting where they feel more comfortable with each other and know they got each other's backs.
> 
> So. The question is: How long have GNO's been going on and what HASN'T she told you about in the past.
> 
> I ask this because my own wife downplayed GNO every single f'ng time. Oh, just having fun. Til after Dday and I asked. Then it was...well, it wasn't a big deal really. Then, "well I liked it when guys noticed me"...and then, "well we only danced".
> 
> The line gets pushed a little more.
> 
> Like Boromir said, "One does not merely walk into Mordor"...one does not merely make out and bonk a guy. There IS a build up. It started somewhere.
> 
> Your job is to find out truly WHEN that started. You are going to be introduced to trickle truth. The thing where they tell you something, but not all of it, cuz...well...they don't want to "hurt" you. Until, you get a little more truth and it's the cover up that hurts WAAAYYY more than what they actually did.
> 
> Bud - you gotta sit her down and look her dead in the eye and tell her "It's go time". Tell her she needs to talk about why she truly did this.
> 
> A mistake is when ya hit your thumb with a hammer, not ask someone to put on a condom.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## BjornFree

SomedayDig said:


> Like Boromir said, "One does not merely walk into Mordor"...one does not merely make out and bonk a guy.













There...much better.


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## jh52

Agree with the other posters here.

Hope for the best -- prepare for the worst because I do not think you know the "whole" story yet --


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## PreRaphaelite

SomedayDig said:


> Steve...2 months is still pretty raw to be feeling this, so make sure that as you read these posts, don't run from anything that might scare ya.
> 
> First, let me say and all the people here will tell you, I am like a posterboy for Reconciliation. That said, I don't pull punches when I ask questions or give "advice". Yeah - in quotes, cuz this is afterall, an anonymous internet forum and everything said isn't always the best. Even from me - gasp!
> 
> The problem I have is this whole GNO thing. See, initially a GNO is pretty harmless. They go out and have a few drinks and socialize TOGETHER. Problem comes is when they do it a few times a year. All it takes is ONE of the chicks to get hit on and it's like a switch is thrown. They may feign disgust, but the attention is fantastic. The line simply gets moved a little bit each GNO. "I won't talk to a guy"..."I won't let a guy buy me a drink"..."I won't dance with a guy". All of those lines keep getting moved with each outting where they feel more comfortable with each other and know they got each other's backs.
> 
> So. The question is: How long have GNO's been going on and what HASN'T she told you about in the past.
> 
> I ask this because my own wife downplayed GNO every single f'ng time. Oh, just having fun. Til after Dday and I asked. Then it was...well, it wasn't a big deal really. Then, "well I liked it when guys noticed me"...and then, "well we only danced".
> 
> The line gets pushed a little more.
> 
> Like Boromir said, "One does not merely walk into Mordor"...one does not merely make out and bonk a guy. There IS a build up. It started somewhere.
> 
> Your job is to find out truly WHEN that started. You are going to be introduced to trickle truth. The thing where they tell you something, but not all of it, cuz...well...they don't want to "hurt" you. Until, you get a little more truth and it's the cover up that hurts WAAAYYY more than what they actually did.
> 
> Bud - you gotta sit her down and look her dead in the eye and tell her "It's go time". Tell her she needs to talk about why she truly did this.
> 
> A mistake is when ya hit your thumb with a hammer, not ask someone to put on a condom.


:iagree:

I don't think this just happened out of the blue. Another thing that makes me skeptical is her insistence that this is the only mistake she has made in 15 years of marriage. 

As Shakespeare said, the lady doth protest too much. Whenever I hear these these hand-over-heart confessions that this is the truth, I get very suspicious, because it usually means that the spouse has something to hide. 

And as for the co-workers, in whatever appropriate way you can, you should tell them never to get within 10 yards of your wife again.


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## crossbar

Cheaters will only tell you the bare minimum of what truely happened to make it sound not as bad as what it really was. I have my doubts that a condom was used. Most cheaters don't use them. Especially if it were a "spur of the moment" thing. I don't have condoms at the ready 24/7 so I highly doubt this douche bag did either.

Okay, you stated that you want to start working out and getting into great shape. Awesome! ANd you stated that you want to finish your degree. GREAT!!! But you need to do those things for yourself and only for you. Doing those things will help your self esteem and your self confidence. So, do them! Plus, being in the classroom will probably help you to keep your mind off of what she did to you and into your school work. 

You stated you wanted to do those things to be at her level in appearance and in educational status. Dude, right now. You are so far ahead of her, she should be wanting to catch up to you. YOU didn't cheat. YOU didn't go against your morals. YOU didn't break anyones trust or anyones heart. So, who the better person here right now.

And above all else. This isn't your fault. You didn't do anything to ask for this. You trusted your wife and she's the one that threw it into the toliet. 

So, you have some tough choices to make here.


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## SomedayDig

BjornFree said:


> There...much better.


That's signature worthy material right there. Any and all royalties can be paid through my attorney here at TAM. Who happens to be a hot female attorney 



Steveo...brother - you're gonna see posts like this. They aren't meant to demean you at all. This is called levity. Something that you are gonna WANT to have in your life when everything feels like it's gone to sh-t.


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## workindad

Is this the same group of people she has done gnos with before. You may also want to ask one of them for details regarding previous gnos. It is not like this is a secret. Good gossip travels fast. I am sure most of your place knows by now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zookeeper

I have zero tolerance for infidelity. In my case, there would be no reconciliation, no second chance, none of it. 

That being said, I'm not so sure you should think she has been unfaithful in the past. It would be incredibly stupid to do what she did in the presence of your co-workers. It doesn't sound like there was any forethought, just a situation that rapidly spiraled down the toilet. I'm not excusing her behaviour as nothing can. Just saying that her actions don't sound like those of a habitual cheater. 

I'm sure many cheaters truly believed they never would/could - until they did. People can do awful things that they regret forever in the blink of an eye. A moment of weakness, personal crisis, alcohol/drugs, peer pressure...when applied to the right person at the right time can spell disaster. Again, no excuse or justification for infidelity. Fact is, if your wife had skipped this GNO this might not have happened ever. If you do choose to reconcile, you need some pretty frim ground rules about her social group and activities. As soon as the group was going to meet with men she should have called a cab and headed home. A married woman has no business out drinking with men while her husband sits at home. Same goes if you switch the genders. If she is comitted to the marriage she will agree to any reasonable demands. If she balks and tells you that she won't be treated like a child, controlled, whatever, then you know where her head is at.

Sorry you found yourself in this situation. Be strong and do what's right for you and your kids.


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## The Middleman

bryanp said:


> So she gets to screw this hot young guy all night and then tell you in the morning it was only her first mistake in 15 years so you have to forgive her. What is wrong with this picture?


*stevekimsly: *This is why you are having such a difficult time now: She is asking you to let her get away with destroying your heart, self esteem and self respect scott free, with out penalty. ALL CHEATERS WANT THIS. The thing you need to come to grips with is that this was a conscious decision on her part to have sex with this guy; IT WAS NOT A MISTAKE. Any one calling it a MISTAKE, including your wife, is bullsh1tting you. AND, unless she has a serious mental disorder, she had to be aware she was hurting you and therefore, this was a conscious decision to hurt you.

So all this happened and you are hurting and she is getting away with it without penalty. This is why you and many others can't get over infidelity. 

Now I don't have an answer for you but I just want to give you some food for thought (and I'm going to get flamed for this). Think about what you want from her in order to stay in the marriage. What would be some value back for your pain. How do you level the playing field so you can remain in the marriage. How does she pay for her crime? You need something in return. If you don't get some satisfaction, you'll be living with a hole in your stomach before long. 

Others will say in order to heal you should forgive and forget as long as she follows the rules. I'm not so sure that works.

(BTW: If I were in your shoes, I would have filed for divorce and served her just to see how much she really wants to be married)

EDIT: Just my personal opinion here; any husband who allows his wife to go out on GNOs just might as well bring a guy in for his wife to bang on a regular basis. It's so much easier.


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## F-102

workindad said:


> Is this the same group of people she has done gnos with before. You may also want to ask one of them for details regarding previous gnos. It is not like this is a secret. Good gossip travels fast. I am sure most of your place knows by now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I disagree. Her GFs will no doubt cover for her, and if you press them for answers, they will start telling her that you are "insecure, controlling, abusive, etc.", and that will lead to them trying to convince her that you are "all wrong" for her, and before you know it, they will be trying to hook her up with other men that they think she "deserves".


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## SomedayDig

The Middleman said:


> Others will say in order to heal you should forgive and forget as long as she follows the rules. I'm not so sure that works.


If anyone offers "advice" to forgive and forget - DON'T listen!!!!

Forgive if you choose.

Never forget.


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## walkonmars

It takes a lot of brass to be unfaithful with witnesses or potential witnesses present. It usually indicates that it wasn't a "first".


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## crossbar

I agree with Mars, this was WAY TOO comfortable behavior for her.

You stated that the co worker cried and apologized. Did she say anything else?


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## jh52

How did your wife act when she got home from her other GNO's?

Someone suggested that she may have cheated before with this or other guys -- but they may have both fallen asleep till 
5 am -- and came up with this story.

Good friends are usually not going to abandon a woman with a strange man -- in a strange home --- thus once again the thinking that was all planned out and may have been going on for a while. You co-workers left her knowing what she was going to do -- and were not at all concerned for her safety -- that also says something IMO. The only difference was this time after being with OM -- and coming home -- she fell asleep and had to come up with a reason.


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## bryanp

Walk on Mars makes a great point. A person that would feel so comfortable around her friends and co-workers making out screwing this guy all night indicates this was not her first rodeo.

How could she be so comfortable and brazen around co-workers if something has not been happening previously? I am sorry Steve but there is a whole lot more to this story. At this point you may wish to think about getting her a polygraph. The story has way too many holes in it. She clearly does not respect you whatsoever. If you do not respect yourself the who will?


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## lordmayhem

F-102 said:


> I disagree. Her GFs will no doubt cover for her, and if you press them for answers, they will start telling her that you are "insecure, controlling, abusive, etc.", and that will lead to them trying to convince her that you are "all wrong" for her, and before you know it, they will be trying to hook her up with other men that they think she "deserves".


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

Seen this way too often in real life. 

GNOs/BNOs - just an excuse to go to the meat market and see the wares.


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## Acabado

F-102 said:


> I disagree. Her GFs will no doubt cover for her, and if you press them for answers, they will start telling her that you are "insecure, controlling, abusive, etc.", and that will lead to them trying to convince her that you are "all wrong" for her, and before you know it, they will be trying to hook her up with other men that they think she "deserves".


The female coworker who broke down crying the next day. That one might help you.
If that particular coworker is a regular in her GNOs I'd do whatever it takes to make her throw your wife under the bus. Whatever. Guilty tripping, seeking sympahy, faking seduction...
Was it the first time? Possibly. It's also possibly she ignores any boundarie when she's out and the only difference is she just fell sleep that night and there's wasn't a way to hide it. Maybe it's a full blown affair. You know actually nothing so be sure.
I'd use this coworker and of course I'd start snoopin her current activities and the past, as long in it as I could: phone bill, VAR, keylogger...

Sorry man.


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## southernsurf

stevekimsly said:


> went clubbing with the girls. Later in the evening they randomly met up with a male co-worker of mine and some of his friends. They ended up at his house and she ended up cheating on me with one of his friends (10+ years younger than her). *She can and cant remember *some of the night after the clubs *but does remember at the house kissing/fondling and asking the kid a to wear a condom*. She is taking full responsibility for her "mistake". She has answered any question I have had, albeit difficult.


I would be surprised if this was the first time - to formal, not a coincidence they happened to meet up. The problem was she got so drunk, she passed out and came home late, or she would have normally been home at a more reasonable hour and you would not have suspected anything. This does not make sense to me. She remembers some things but fuzzy on others. But she does remember telling him ‘yes screw me but wear a condom’ or was it common practice. 

I would kick her out of the house until you get the answers you need to make a decision on the future......


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## Shaggy

Don't let her blame medication and booze. She was in control enough to text you and she was in control enough that she isn't claiming tape.

She chose to have sex with him, she chose to come home the next morning with a lame excuse and no guilt, and she chose to lie to your face - again with zero guilt.

Oh, she might have been worried that THIS tine she pushed it too far by staying with him for the night.

1. STD tests for her.
2. Pregnancy test for her
3. Polygraph test for her - is this the first time, etc.
4. Her days of GNOs are forever done. I don't mean done for a while, I mean until the end of time.

5. Those work friends of yours, you need to realize right now they are not and have never been your friends. Friends would have had your back, friends would have been calling you at home to warn you to come get her. No these are in no sense of the word friends.

Btw you didn't marry up. You aren't a cheater, she is. If anything she married way up from who she is.


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## crossbar

Yeah, I mean, this could have been the first time that she actually fell asleep and couldn't come up with an excuse that would justify her being out till 5am. And it would have been too earily to call a co-worker and come up with a cover story. Or she may have tried but couldn't get them on the phone.

I also agree that if you want to find out if there was more to this story, you need to investigate it RIGHT NOW! Get two VAR's. Hide one VAR in the house in a room where she usually talks on the phone. And then go to the hardware store and get some heavy duty velcro and secure another one under the drivers seat of her car. Right now, she's talking. She calling girlfriends and getting advice on how to make this better. She may slip up and reveal more on the phone to her girlfriends on how bad this truely is. 

Hopefully, this is a one time event. An isolated event. But, I have my doubts.


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## BjornFree

Generally GNOs and ONS and staying out way past midnight are all lifestyle choices. 

Do you and your wife still work in that place?


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## barbados

stevekimsly said:


> I married up (that is to say that she is better looking than me) she has her degree and is hyper intelligent. I am just an average guy who is a good guy. Now I feel like I need to compete -- I need to get in better shape (she has never complained or even mentioned this) but the guy she slept with was young and in shape. I feel I need to finish my degree. I feel I need to become "better" than she is to move forward so I feel like either A) She will "want" me and this wont happen again or B) If it happens again I will still be marketable in my late 30.


Do those thing for YOU, not for her or anyone else. She screwed up, and now it is up to her to do ALL the heavy lifting to save your marriage !

BTW, she was so "hyper intelligent" that she put herself in a situation to lose a good 15 year marriage and 3 children ! 

STOP putting yourself down compared to her, ESPECIALLY NOW !

BTW, your co-workers are toxic, and I think for your marriage to survive you might seriously need to think about a job change.


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## walkonmars

barbados said:


> Do those thing for YOU, not for her or anyone else. She screwed up, and now it is up to her to do ALL the heavy lifting to save your marriage !
> 
> *BTW, she was so "hyper intelligent" that she put herself in a situation to lose a good 15 year marriage and 3 children !
> 
> STOP putting yourself down compared to her, ESPECIALLY NOW !
> 
> BTW, your co-workers are toxic, and I think for your marriage to survive you might seriously need to think about a job change.*


:iagree:

All along you've been thinking she's too good for you. Guess what? YOU are too good for her!


----------



## Shaggy

Notice the so called friends didn't think it unusual what she was doing? Dude, she's done it before and they provided the cover.

Have you asked the friends about what other guys she's been with? Or if she's been with this guy before?


----------



## SomedayDig

Shaggy said:


> Notice the so called friends didn't think it unusual what she was doing? Dude, she's done it before and they provided the cover.
> 
> Have you asked the friends about what other guys she's been with? Or if she's been with this guy before?


This does worry me about her "story" too, man. It's a harsh possibility.


----------



## aug

stevekimsly said:


> 15 years of happy marriage and 3 kids (*both of us admit to having a 9/10 marriage in all aspects*). I was happy with my wife and she says she was happy with me.
> 
> ...
> 
> The betrayal was horrible, my co-workers apparently not calling me or helping her to get out of the situation is makes it even worse. I feel not only betrayed by my wife, but my co-workers/friends.
> 
> ...
> 
> I married up (that is to say that* she is better looking than me) she has her degree and is hyper intelligent*. I am just an average guy who is a good guy. Now I feel like I need to compete -- I need to get in better shape (she has never complained or even mentioned this) but the guy she slept with was young and in shape. I feel I need to finish my degree. I feel I need to become "better" than she is to move forward so I feel like either A) She will "want" me and this wont happen again or B) If it happens again I will still be marketable in my late 30.
> 
> I don't have a real question other than does it get better... should I give her a second chance? Is it normal to feel like changing my whole lifestyle to not mimic the way it was before?



A few points...

*1*) Only 1/10 wrong with your marriage and she can step out and fvck another guy? Now that the marriage after her cheating is, say, 5/10, why do you think she wont cheat in the future? 

I think, in reality, she doesn't think her marriage is 9/10.


*2*) She can cheat when around with her co-workers because she feels comfortable and secure enough with them to do so. And because of the comfort level, she most likely have done so a few times before. This is not her first rodeo.

*3*) You say she's hyperintelligent. If so, she'll continue to find ways to cheat and she'll get better at hiding it. You're in for a rocky future.

Be prepared to lose your marriage. If you are, you'll have a better chance of saving it if that's what you want.


----------



## Rollin

Poly


----------



## walkonmars

The voice activated recorder (VAR) in the car is an excellent idea. You may be able to verify that her story is true or that there's more to it. 

In the meantime, find out what you can about the young stud. And be certain that she doesn't sandbag you with "I don't remember". 

As others have advised - talk some more to your female co-workers. And if they're (coworkers) married, you may want to have a chat with their husbands to see what they've been told.


----------



## aug

stevekimsly said:


> I knew something was up because this is the first time she hasn't made it home. She was acting funny but I wrote it off as a hangover. The next day at work I confronted a co-worker about ditching my wife and said I was disappointing in them for not looking after my wife... She started crying and apologizing... I knew my wife had cheated on me. I confronted my wife and she told me she had taken some medication and liquor and went clubbing with the girls. *Later in the evening they randomly met up with a male co-worker of mine and some of his friends. * They ended up at his house and she ended up cheating on me with one of his friends (10+ years younger than her). She can and cant remember some of the night after the clubs but does remember at the house kissing/fondling and asking the kid a to wear a condom. She is taking full responsibility for her "mistake". She has answered any question I have had, albeit difficult.



This wasn't a random meet-up. It was planned to some extent.

Your wife is minimizing her cheating. She's not telling you the whole truth. Whatever her reasons are for not telling you the truth, just know she's not telling you all of it.

Bet you she talked with him earlier in the day about the night out.


----------



## lordmayhem

aug said:


> *2*) She can cheat when around with her co-workers because she feels comfortable and secure enough with them to do so. And because of the comfort level, she most likely have done so a few times before. This is not her first rodeo.
> 
> *3*) You say she's hyperintelligent. If so, she'll continue to find ways to cheat and she'll get better at hiding it. You're in for a rocky future.


What makes this more brazen, is that she went out with stevekimsly's coworkers, not her own (unless they work together). Did she not think word wouldn't get back to him? 

Being very smart doesn't mean you have common sense. If she was bold enough to cheat on a GNO with her husband's coworkers, how much more with her own coworkers or toxic friends? Like others have asked, how long has she been going on these GNOs?


----------



## betamale

Has anybody told stevekimsly about the 180 program? Here it is:

http://www.nomoremrniceguy.com/forums/showthread.php?p=256158

(Sorry for the previous endless post)


----------



## Toffer

Steve,

I ahve to agree with others here that this rabbit hole may go deeper than you think.

From you're story it sems she knew exactly what she was doing when she told the other guy to wear a condom. She thought this through so don't accept any of her BS about booze and medication.

Also disturbing is that you found out. She did not confess out of respect or love for you. You just happened to hit on the weak link in the friend/co-worker chain and it all came apart.

Also her "one mistake in 15 years" speech rings hollow when it comes to something like this.

Before you go any further, I'd suggest you polygraph her to see what else she's been up to in the marriage. After that, you can decide if you want to try and fix this


----------



## BjornFree

betamale the 180 is copyright material. Post the link next time.


----------



## betamale

BjornFree said:


> betamale the 180 is copyright material. Post the link next time.


Done.


----------



## SkyHigh

Just because it was "one" time doesn't make it right. 

Her explanation is shallow for her, and disrespectful for you.


----------



## Shaggy

I'm thinking that she's also playing the game that since you've always had open fb etc with her, she just doesn't carry it on there knowing you can see it, so that's a false comfort you have.

I'd be using the VAR ASAP and I'd be pulling her phone records from right after you found out from the friends.

See who called to warn her it was out, and see who she called to warn it was out.


----------



## SkyHigh

Best way you can see where her morals lie?

Once you catch her after some detective work, see if she complains about you "invading" her "privacy".


----------



## tom67

I am assuming these gno's are over with, right?


----------



## lordmayhem

Shaggy said:


> I'm thinking that she's also playing the game that since you've always had open fb etc with her, she just doesn't carry it on there knowing you can see it, so that's a false comfort you have.


It is a false comfort. I've always had my fWW's facebook password, since she doesn't know or is lazy to post pictures/videos herself and asks me to do it, which was fine by me. So everything is open and fine, right? 

That was the case until I discovered she had her own secret account under a different name that I didn't know about. It's so easy to create different accounts and so easy to create a secret email account.


----------



## All of a sudden

I think no girls out ever, if its clubs and bars, nothing good can come of it?

Does it get better? Yes for some. Im learning more all the time and my husband is not doing anything to make anything better, this is 7 months later. I have forgiven, but he won't change the things he promised. I can look at his computer, phone, ect, but thats about all thats changed. His personality has changed, he's angry, like I did something wrong. I don't see it ending well.

If she is really sorry, she'll stop going out, never talk to her " friends again. Make you know you are her top priority. Its a hard thing to get passed and you can't trust her. Is she worth it?


----------



## Wiserforit

stevekimsly said:


> she told me she had taken some medication and liquor and went clubbing with the girls.


Already wrong.

Before my wife and I were married, if she even went to the shopping center with her teen girlfriends she would call me on her cell phone to let me know where they were and what she was doing. 

This was a long night of bad decisions, not just the part about boinking the young guy.


----------



## TRy

stevekimsly said:


> The betrayal was horrible, my co-workers apparently not calling me or helping her to get out of the situation is makes it even worse. I feel not only betrayed by my wife, but my co-workers/friends.


 Here is the rub. Most cheaters would respect their spouse enough to be discrete as they cheated. Your wife was anything but discrete. She showed you and everyone that she has no respect for you in her willingness to betray and humiliate you in front of your friends and co-workers. Read my past posts and you will see what I am about to say in not what I usually say, but I could never get over such a betrayal nor should you. 

She did this knowing that you would probably find out and was counting on you giving her a second chance. For your own dignity and self respect, and for the respect of your friends and co-workers, you need to file for divorce and mean it. You can always change your mind if she really makes the effort to deserve it, but you must make a big deal out of this. If you let her rug sweep, she will feel that she can cheat again and that you will look the other way and forgive her. She must really fear losing you and fight for you for you to even begin to think about not divorcing her.

Again, she did this in front of your friends and co-workers, knowing that this would humiliate you in the worst way possible. Humiliating you probably added to the excitement of her cheating. This is one of the most horrible betrayals that I have ever read on this board. I feel for you. Be well.


----------



## MattMatt

stevekimsly said:


> 15 years of happy marriage and 3 kids (both of us admit to having a 9/10 marriage in all aspects). I was happy with my wife and she says she was happy with me.
> 
> My wife goes out on a girls night while with three of my female co-workers as I watch the kids. I wake up at 5am to a phone call from her staying she is getting a cab home that she fell asleep at one of my male co-workers house and that her friends (my co-workers) had left her.
> 
> I knew something was up because this is the first time she hasn't made it home. She was acting funny but I wrote it off as a hangover. The next day at work I confronted a co-worker about ditching my wife and said I was disappointing in them for not looking after my wife... She started crying and apologizing... I knew my wife had cheated on me. I confronted my wife and she told me she had taken some medication and liquor and went clubbing with the girls. Later in the evening they randomly met up with a male co-worker of mine and some of his friends. They ended up at his house and she ended up cheating on me with one of his friends (10+ years younger than her). She can and cant remember some of the night after the clubs but does remember at the house kissing/fondling and asking the kid a to wear a condom. She is taking full responsibility for her "mistake". She has answered any question I have had, albeit difficult.
> 
> The betrayal was horrible, my co-workers apparently not calling me or helping her to get out of the situation is makes it even worse. I feel not only betrayed by my wife, but my co-workers/friends.
> 
> She has never (and still doesn't) keep passwords to facebook/email/or anything from me. She is willing to do anything to save the marriage and says that is was only one mistake in 15 years that she thinks she deserves a second chance. Its been two months and I don't seem to be getting better.
> 
> I married up (that is to say that she is better looking than me) she has her degree and is hyper intelligent. I am just an average guy who is a good guy. Now I feel like I need to compete -- I need to get in better shape (she has never complained or even mentioned this) but the guy she slept with was young and in shape. I feel I need to finish my degree. I feel I need to become "better" than she is to move forward so I feel like either A) She will "want" me and this wont happen again or B) If it happens again I will still be marketable in my late 30.
> 
> I don't have a real question other than does it get better... should I give her a second chance? Is it normal to feel like changing my whole lifestyle to not mimic the way it was before?


Just because someone has a degree, doesn't make them cheat-proof...


----------



## workindad

I agree with TRy. She did in front of your coworkers knowing they would know. Also as others have said she was obviously comfortable with it. Asking him to wear a condom. Obviously not out of it either. 

She could be lying about the condom thinking that may somehow make it better. Get checked for stds. 

Checking the phone records will tell you which coworker called her to let her know you were asking around. It may also show that young stud was known before the drunken hook up. 

VAR the car. Cheap and effective. I doubt she really values and rates your marriage as a 9 out of 10. Who the hell would screw that up for a ONS. 

Good luck
Wd
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ArmyofJuan

stevekimsly said:


> Now I feel like I need to compete -- I need to get in better shape (she has never complained or even mentioned this) but the guy she slept with was young and in shape.


No, no no no.
Her cheating had nothing to do with you. Trying to compete with the OM is pointless because that is not the issue. 



> I feel I need to finish my degree. I feel I need to become "better" than she is to move forward so I feel like either A) She will "want" me and this wont happen again


She didn't cheat because of you, she did it because something is wrong with her. Making yourself better (which we all should do anyway) will not make the problem go away.



> B) If it happens again I will still be marketable in my late 30.


Now you are thinking. Not only that, when she see you will be fine without her she will be less willing to risk doing it again because she knows it will be game over for her.

Most people cheat because they feel they can get away with it and/or they have little to no respect for the BS. Respect yourself and they will respect you.


----------



## StillSearching

Sure you can make her want you. You can make women want you. You can't make them love you. You can't make them honest. Sure she planned it out. That scenario with co- workers is a very common one. I know. It got me.


----------



## warlock07

Yu don't "marry up" to a cheater. She maybe all those things you said but in terms of marriage, you "married down"


----------



## SkyHigh

I'll second that filing for divorce.

She needs to learn that there are consequences for her actions, and she needs to learn that you deserve respect.

Short anecdote...

My ex-banshee cheated on me back in 2006. She was seeing a guy before we got together, and he was her "best friend", even though he was constantly trying to get into her panties. 

We had a fight over something stupid she did(she stopped paying for the car she and her ex-fiancee bought in an attempt to ruin his credit), and I told her to call me when she grew up.

What did she do? She went and cheated on me with the guy she used to date. 

What did I do? I let her off the hook. What did she do afterwards?

Disrespected me multiple times throughout the relationship.

Why?

Because I showed her that her bad behavior was acceptable and I'd take her back every time.


----------



## Blue Firefly

TRy said:


> ...you must make a big deal out of this.


This is the most important single piece of advice you have gotten on this thread.

Anything less than her standing on the edge of the cliff, staring in the abyss and thinking to herself "Oh my God, oh my God, what have I done, what...have...I...done?" will result in her risking to do this again.

At the moment, she has you negotiating with her to determine if her excuse is good enough to overlook her actions. Once you open the door to the idea that adultery is acceptable "if you have a good excuse," then adultery becomes acceptable period.

Remember the old saying "excuses are for losers." If you accept ANY excuse from her whatsoever then you become the loser; you will have a marriage where adultery is acceptable. 

Your wife committed adultery. Forget about the circumstances. The end result is no different than if she had planned it out months in advance. Your wife committed adultery.

If you want to save your marriage, then you have to take whatever steps that are required to make sure that no matter what circumstances she finds herself in, that she never considers adultery to be an option.

Make a big deal out of this.


----------



## tacoma

Steve,

The scenario you described doesn't just happen "Once in 15 years".
She was so confident that she recklessly ****ed another man in front of an entire group of people who you know and interact with daily.

Start asking the right questions and pay attention to her body language when she answers.

No way a first timer does something like this.


----------



## Shaggy

In the past two months

1. How many times has she gone out socially and left you at home?


----------



## Summer4744

How is she with you now? Does she want you to just get over it already or is she under standing what you are going through?

Has she shown true remorse?


----------



## BobSimmons

stevekimsly said:


> 15 years of happy marriage and 3 kids (both of us admit to having a 9/10 marriage in all aspects). I was happy with my wife and she says she was happy with me.
> 
> My wife goes out on a girls night while with three of my female co-workers as I watch the kids. I wake up at 5am to a phone call from her staying she is getting a cab home that she fell asleep at one of my male co-workers house and that her friends (my co-workers) had left her.
> 
> I knew something was up because this is the first time she hasn't made it home. She was acting funny but I wrote it off as a hangover. The next day at work I confronted a co-worker about ditching my wife and said I was disappointing in them for not looking after my wife... She started crying and apologizing... I knew my wife had cheated on me. I confronted my wife and she told me she had taken some medication and liquor and went clubbing with the girls. Later in the evening they randomly met up with a male co-worker of mine and some of his friends. They ended up at his house and she ended up cheating on me with one of his friends (10+ years younger than her). She can and cant remember some of the night after the clubs but does remember at the house kissing/fondling and asking the kid a to wear a condom. She is taking full responsibility for her "mistake". She has answered any question I have had, albeit difficult.
> 
> The betrayal was horrible, my co-workers apparently not calling me or helping her to get out of the situation is makes it even worse. I feel not only betrayed by my wife, but my co-workers/friends.
> 
> She has never (and still doesn't) keep passwords to facebook/email/or anything from me. She is willing to do anything to save the marriage and says that is was only one mistake in 15 years that she thinks she deserves a second chance. Its been two months and I don't seem to be getting better.
> 
> *I married up (that is to say that she is better looking than me) she has her degree and is hyper intelligent. I am just an average guy who is a good guy*. Now I feel like I need to compete -- I need to get in better shape (she has never complained or even mentioned this) but the guy she slept with was young and in shape. I feel I need to finish my degree. I feel I need to become "better" than she is to move forward so I feel like either A) She will "want" me and this wont happen again or B) If it happens again I will still be marketable in my late 30.
> 
> I don't have a real question other than does it get better... should I give her a second chance? Is it normal to feel like changing my whole lifestyle to not mimic the way it was before?


This sentence encapsulates everything.

You didn't marry up. Why do you think she married you in the first place if you were so "average"? You've probably gone through your whole marriage putting her on a mini pedestal and thinking you're beneath her. It starts off small, she probably noticed it but the longer it goes on, the less respect she has for you, after all why should she, you don't respect yourself. So on that night she let herself be taken, she knew what she was doing, even telling the guy to put a condom on.

To make it clear it wasn't a "mistake" it sounds like for lack of better phraseology she just wanted to cop off with somebody.

You're already thinking it's your fault. You're already trying to make yourself more worthy of you, in essence you're probably doing all the things that made her lose respect in the first place. She banged someone else, somehow it's your fault for not being fit enough or educated enough.

You continue to put her on that pedestal, it was most definitely happen again.


----------



## Shaggy

She didn't make a mistake. She made a clear and deliberate choice and was very much in control of herself.

When she calls it a mistake I suggest you correct her time and say "no you made a choice"


----------



## talin

Problem here is that if you forgive and basically forget you're giving her the green light to go and do it again.


----------



## RWB

Oh God help us. My own wife tried the "I made a stupid mistake" excuse. Your wife has been sleeping around for years. Not her first rodeo... she just got sloppy and others knew that she could not trust. She is playing the "2nd chance" game when in reality its the 40th.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I like how there was no "please" but she "deserves" another chance. You need to lay down the law if you are going to reconcile. Also, it needs to be on your terms at the start.


----------



## ThePheonix

Steve, you've got a boat load of problems here. First, I don't think this is her first rodeo. She pushed the envelope to far and got caught.
Second, how much do you think your wife cares about you or your reputation? Here's a hint. When a woman goes out with her husband's co-workers and bangs one of them with full knowledge of the others, her husbands ends up the laughing stock of the company. Your co-workers are not winking at each other when you're around because they have something in their eyes.
Third, and I'm saying this with a lot of experience, guys who believe a GNO where they are going to clubs, male strippers, etc., is just innocent fun, are stooges. If you knew the number of wives I've been set up by their friends at GNO you'd be shocked. Back in day, I regularly got to second, third, and occasionally home with one out of most groups of five or more. 
Common sense tells you when a chick goes to a club where the alcohol or worse is flowing, they are often craving male attention.


----------



## carolinadreams

What are you going to do about those coworkers, and that toxic environment?


----------



## jnj express

You may have given off the beta attitude to your wife, and co-workers----it just may be whether this was 1st time spreading legs for OM, or not---her co-workers---brought in one of those POS---"badboys"---that women would trade 20 minutes to be with, as opposed to 30 yrs with their H----he was the hot, young, fit lover----and it happened---it wasn't any mistake---it was a planned liason---and your wife was into it, every step of the way-----otherwise why when she full well knew she was a married wife---would she finish off the night at a man's apt----she knew she needed to go home in the cab---but she didn't she went to have her sexparty---and in doing so---she has destroyed a family

BY the way beauty is only SKIN DEEP-------you did not marry up---you got what you wanted---she got what she wanted----and now she wants more and gets it


----------



## The Middleman

So, is the OP coming back?


----------



## Dyokemm

Sorry to hear about your sitch OP.

This is an incredible betrayal. Bad enough to cheat in the first place, but to wantonly go ahead with it in front of people you know and interact with daily is unforgivable.

I would tell her to pound sand...especially after the 'deserve' baloney. No one 'deserves' a second chance in any life situation where they totally screw up. It is not something earned. It has to be freely given by you, if you choose to. It's a gift. Her attitude says she doesn't deserve it.

And your co-worker/friend who let all this go down at his place should be persona non gratia to you forever more. I wouldn't pee on that guy to put out the flames if he was on fire, if I were you. And I'd let him hear it personally from me, not just through giving him the cold-shoulder.


----------



## MrK

How often did these gals go out? If the answer is anything but "very rarely", she's been around. And everyone knows it but you. The classic double betrayal. 

No kids. NO WAY I'm going back to her.


----------



## itom72

The Middleman said:


> So, is the OP coming back?


Perhaps he read the replies, realized the depth of WW's betrayal, and it was too much of a shock to his system.

I hope not, though. Let's hope he comes back.


----------



## SkyHigh

Guy's got to sleep sometime.

As for your wife, I repeat my previous statement.

You said she's a selfless mother. I think she's a selfish mother.

You know the kind of mother. Selfish + Mother****** = Selfish Mother******. You know her as your wife.


----------



## Entropy3000

PreRaphaelite said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I don't think this just happened out of the blue. Another thing that makes me skeptical is her insistence that this is the only mistake she has made in 15 years of marriage.
> 
> As Shakespeare said, the lady doth protest too much. Whenever I hear these these hand-over-heart confessions that this is the truth, I get very suspicious, because it usually means that the spouse has something to hide.
> 
> And as for the co-workers, in whatever appropriate way you can, you should tell them never to get within 10 yards of your wife again.


I would say that if ones co-workers were involved and let this happen that not only were they ambivalent but I actually think this was setup. You know even if I hated a coworker I would not allow a friend of mine to bang the guys wife. 

No mistakes here. Choices. But I agree with dig. This is a lifestyle. The fun of the lifestyle is the excitement that maybe, just maybe there will be a mistake tonight. How close can I get to making a mistake. There is a rush to this. It is called playing just the tip. 

Holy crap if I have a coworkers wife in my group I am going to freaking c0ckblock.

But something tells me this was targeted. Not a ramdom meet up at all. Who wants to be the guy at work with the wife who goes out and bangs a young guy while the hubby baby sits. How much will that guy ever get from anyone again. How many times have the coworkers discussed this since. 

And no it is not a mistake when one asks the guy to wear a condom. I mean the wife knows these people work with her husband. How big of the kick for her was humiliating her husband. No the young guy was a known quantity. It was a setup.

Now there was no condom. She is just trying to say they had protected sex. Not likely.


----------



## aug

Yup, I agree. It was a planned evening.

Why else would he bring a condom? Why does she know he has a condom and asked him to put it on? Or, did she bring the condom?


----------



## Entropy3000

jnj express said:


> You may have given off the beta attitude to your wife, and co-workers----it just may be whether this was 1st time spreading legs for OM, or not---her co-workers---brought in one of those POS---"badboys"---that women would trade 20 minutes to be with, as opposed to 30 yrs with their H----he was the hot, young, fit lover----and it happened---it wasn't any mistake---it was a planned liason---and your wife was into it, every step of the way-----otherwise why when she full well knew she was a married wife---would she finish off the night at a man's apt----she knew she needed to go home in the cab---but she didn't she went to have her sexparty---and in doing so---she has destroyed a family
> 
> BY the way beauty is only SKIN DEEP-------you did not marry up---you got what you wanted---she got what she wanted----and now she wants more and gets it


This is what I was thinking at first. It may be that the OP bragged about his wife. He gave off a beta vibe. Maybe his wife was known for pushing the boundaries. So they brought in a ringer. A guy they knew could close the deal.

While this is possible I think she has been screwing around right along and these folks enabled it.


----------



## Entropy3000

aug said:


> Yup, I agree. It was a planned evening.
> 
> Why else would he bring a condom? Why does she know he has a condom and asked him to put it on? Or, did she bring the condom?


The male co-worker had the condoms. he helped his buddy out perhaps.

She was not the only one who got off on humiliating this guy.


----------



## stevekimsly

Lotsa questions to try to answer:

The female Co-workers and their husbands (my friends) have been going out with, having over for game night, spending holidays together for about 4 years. The male coworker was an acquaintance. 

She would go out for a girls night out once a month ( or every other month) but usualy she was the "responsible one" making sure people get home safe, calling me to pick them up etc.



> So, how are you going about making sure this never happens again, as long as you are with her?


I have no idea. There will be no more GNO. She has agreed not to drink except with me. She has said she will give up part of my retirement she is entitled to after 10 years of marriage. She says that she will give up custody of the kids if it ever happens again. She has made quite a few promises We have seen a MC a 3 times now. When I walk away from those sessions I feel worse because there was nothing I did to cause this infidelity.



> Did she get tested for stds?


She said she would but has not yet. This bothers me.



> Ask her if she will take a polygraph. Judged her reaction.


 She agreed to take a polygraph but she was upset, she said she feels horrible that I cant trust her and she is sorry for making me feel this way.



> What kind of medication did she take? Is it OTC or prescribed?


Prescribed anti-anxiety 




> I think it's prudent that they are off-limits


She wants nothing to do with our so-called friends that left her.



> First off, I'd be loaded for bear when it comes to the so called male coworker friend that he allowed one of his friends to hook up with your wife.


The male co-worker has moved far far away, he moved a month after the incident. I was asked by my management not to kill him.



> Also, were these coworker friends all female or were they a group of guys and girls?


Was a group of 8 girls that went to dinner, then 4 of em went out to the club. They say the met up with the guys at the last bar (prior to stumbling to the dudes house)



> she thought if she ever cheated on you and had sex with another man then you would forgive her anyway so she really had nothing to lose.


We had some family friends who marriage that was wreaked by infidelity. She knew that infidelity was the deal breaker for me. We had discussed it and she knew.



> I trust that as part of her consequences, that you have insisted that she have no contact with these enabling co-workers


 They are my co-workers and she doesn't/wont.



> Did you expose the affair? Did she write a no-contact letter to the POSOM? Is she now completely transparent with her communications and activities?


She doesn't know the guys name or what he does or where he lives.



> Bud - you gotta sit her down and look her dead in the eye and tell her "It's go time". Tell her she needs to talk about why she truly did this.


I did and she told me all the details. I still want to believe it was a catastrophic series of events. I can't even think of a similar time this could have happened. She has never been anything but honest.

That is some of the answers for the first page. I'll get to the rest later.

I appreciate people’s views and it has given me a lot to think about.

She is willing to do anything at this point to keep me around, however, she still hasn’t done some of the stuff that she promised. She hasn’t spoken to my family, she hasn’t gotten tested, along with a few other requests i made. She says she will but hasn’t. She has however stopped the GNO, stopped the drinking without me, and wants to spend every waking moment with me. Its ok sometimes and its really rough sometimes.
I sent my kids to my parents for the summer so my wife and I could figure this out.


----------



## jnj express

she wants to spend every minute with you----why didn't she think of that, when she 1st headed to guys apt.---2nd---had foreplay---3rd---spead her legs

I don't know what you will actually do----but you have to have some strong accountability---such as she is out of the marital bedroom---no mr nice-guy for now---no lovey-dovey for now----probably should be no alcohol at all---with or without you----her cushy lifestyle disappears---------

you have to deal with your sub--conscious, and what it will do to you, as you wake up a 3 a m with tears in your eyes---drive alone, sit at your desk, by yourself-------as you have visions of what she has done---as your imagination drives you depths you have never experienced------your carefree days are gone forever----your peace of mind, about mge/family gone forever----now you get to become a parole officer---is that what you want, for the next part of, and maybe all the rest of your mge

Your wife had to know what was going on that night---how does she propose to make sure this situation can/will never happen again-----------------she knew what she was doing, and she knew what the results would be----how can she ever make it right----this mge is dead----whether a new one takes it place---is up to what you are willing to suffer with, for the rest of your life


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## MrK

It wasn't a one time mistake. Even once a month of this crap was enough for EVERYONE to know what was going on. I'm not saying, necessarily, that it was more than one time. But it was no mistake. She's a smart girl. And all of your co workers were in on it.

Double betrayal.


----------



## jh52

IMO opinion -- your wife should not be hestitating to do whatever you ask of her. She is the one who cheated and killed your marriage. She should be willing to do whatever she has to in order to try and create a new marriage with you. Ultimately that final decision is yours.


----------



## workindad

Steve why hasn't she done what she said she would as in get tested. It is not like it happened last week and she has not had time to make an appointment. It is one thing to say you will do something yet another to do it. Pay attention to her actions and demand follow through. 

Some of her story is very difficult to believe. She can't remember his name stumbled to his house but had the presence of thought to insist on a condom. 

I would follow through with the polygraph. You may be surprised by the parking lot confession. It is a consequence of her actions and a way to rebuild trust. 
Demand follow through. Now is not the time to back slide. Your story just doesn't seem like she has told you anything that you were not reasonably sure of. 

If she is so willing to do whatever it takes why the delay in getting checked. The condom use is highly suspect if the rest of the story is correct. 

In the end d or r is your decision.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## azteca1986

stevekimsly said:


> She has said she will give up part of my retirement she is entitled to after 10 years of marriage. She says that she will give up custody of the kids if it ever happens again. She has made quite a few promises We have seen a MC a 3 times now. When I walk away from those sessions I feel worse because there was nothing I did to cause this infidelity.





> She knew that infidelity was the deal breaker for me. We had discussed it and she knew.


So, knowing that, why did she do it? Are you any closer to getting an answer from her? I ask because if nothing precipitated her infidelity, how do you both know it won't happen again?



> She has never been anything but honest.


Well, apart from the fact she didn't confess. It was your co-worker who confessed. Apparently your co-workers all knew what your wife was about to do/was doing when they left her. 

Don't rush to trust, it's a long road and needs to be earned.


----------



## Toffer

stevekimsly said:


> She agreed to take a polygraph but she was upset, she said she feels horrible that I cant trust her and she is sorry for making me feel this way.
> 
> *Be sure to schedule the poly right away. Do not back down because she agreed to do it. There are many stories here of wandering spouses who agreed to a poly only to confess their real sins in the parking lot of the examiner's office or the waiting room.*
> 
> Was a group of 8 girls that went to dinner, then 4 of em went out to the club. They say the met up with the guys at the last bar (prior to stumbling to the dudes house)
> 
> *So she knew where this guy was going to be? Not a good sign!*
> 
> She is willing to do anything at this point to keep me around, however, she still hasn’t done some of the stuff that she promised. She hasn’t spoken to my family, she hasn’t gotten tested, along with a few other requests i made. She says she will but hasn’t.
> 
> *Also not a good sign. Shows a lack of remorse and respect for you and what you need to heal.*


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

You can't back down on the polygraph test. 

If she's lying about this being the only time, I can almost guarantee that she will either tell you more before the test, or back out of the test when it's close to go time. Find out the cut off date to cancel/reschedule the test, just in case.

Don't have sex with her again until she get's the STD test results. Btw, the HIV results take 6 months.

Expose to family and friends, NOW.

She really hasn't seen any tangible consequences yet. NC letter(not an option I guess), exposure, STD tests, talk of divorce. The longer you wait, the less they'll mean.


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## Dad&Hubby

stevekimsly said:


> Lotsa questions to try to answer:
> 
> The female Co-workers and their husbands (my friends) have been going out with, having over for game night, spending holidays together for about 4 years. The male coworker was an acquaintance.
> 
> She would go out for a girls night out once a month ( or every other month) but usualy she was the "responsible one" making sure people get home safe, calling me to pick them up etc.
> 
> 
> I have no idea. There will be no more GNO. She has agreed not to drink except with me. She has said she will give up part of my retirement she is entitled to after 10 years of marriage. She says that she will give up custody of the kids if it ever happens again. She has made quite a few promises We have seen a MC a 3 times now. When I walk away from those sessions I feel worse because there was nothing I did to cause this infidelity.
> 
> 
> She said she would but has not yet. This bothers me.
> 
> She agreed to take a polygraph but she was upset, she said she feels horrible that I cant trust her and she is sorry for making me feel this way.
> 
> 
> Prescribed anti-anxiety
> 
> 
> 
> She wants nothing to do with our so-called friends that left her.
> 
> 
> The male co-worker has moved far far away, he moved a month after the incident. I was asked by my management not to kill him.
> 
> 
> Was a group of 8 girls that went to dinner, then 4 of em went out to the club. They say the met up with the guys at the last bar (prior to stumbling to the dudes house)
> 
> 
> *We had some family friends who marriage that was wreaked by infidelity. She knew that infidelity was the deal breaker for me. We had discussed it and she knew.*
> 
> 
> She is willing to do anything at this point to keep me around, however, she still hasn’t done some of the stuff that she promised. She hasn’t spoken to my family, she hasn’t gotten tested, along with a few other requests i made. She says she will but hasn’t. She has however stopped the GNO, stopped the drinking without me, and wants to spend every waking moment with me. Its ok sometimes and its really rough sometimes.
> I sent my kids to my parents for the summer so my wife and I could figure this out.


You can't heal yet. Because she's not doing anything. Can I make some suggestions that you might want to utilize IF You TRULY want to save things.

Notice the bolded part. It's a deal breaker....well apparently it's not.

If you want to have this woman as your wife, but properly, you need to bury the marriage she killed...and start over.

I would do the following.

1. Tell you wife, her infidelity killed your marriage. You want to bury it and put it behind you. You want to divorce. 

2. You're willing to try dating (EXCLUSIVELY) after the divorce is final, to see if you can rebuild trust and everything you had with her and you'd be willing to RE-marry if she can earn you back.

3. All of her promises must be dealt with during the divorce. The custody, the money issues, the STD testing.

4. SHE needs individual counseling to figure out why and how she allowed herself to do this.

This is all non-negotiable. You're not going to live in a marriage that has infidelity in it. You're OPEN (not guaranteed) to have her as a wife, but she's got to change some things in her and figure out what's wrong with her.

I know this sounds extreme, but it's what I would do. If she's resistant to ANY of it, then you have your truth. These things would be non-negotiable for me. I would make it clear that I'm not going to date anyone, that I want to see if this is saveable but by no means are there any guarantees.


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## walkonmars

You know your wife best. What is your gut telling you?

There's a lot of red flags. Most of the posters on your thread are experienced and savvy (school of hard knocks) when it comes to these issues. 

Something doesn't smell right about this whole thing. Get that poly going. The guy who took off knows a hellalot more than you think - and I think your wife is keeping you in the dark about a lot of things too. It could be to "spare you pain" but it could also be to "hide the truth".


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## turnera

Do not give up the polygraph. No matter what.


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## ThePheonix

Steve, Steve, Steve. Personally I don't care if you stay with the chick, however you really need to wake up a smell the coffee and know the temperament of horse you're riding. 
I'd bet a hundred dollars this "meetup" was planned well in advance, your co-workers are also co-conspirators and your old lady already had the hots for this guy. By your own admission, she went to a club and met up with this guy. A "catastrophic series of events" my azz. This thing was planned out better than the invasion of Normandy.
(as for her formally being the "responsible one" don't you think it's odd that she wasn't one of the 4 gals that went home after dinner but rather left you baby sitting to go to a mans house. Hell man, she couldn't even make it home on time.) As for her "always been honest", how do you know that?
Now that other information has been revealed about the whereabouts of the young hound and his condom bearing buddy, my take is she knew he was moving and she wanted to get a some last chance strange pecker from a guy she'd never see again. 
In the mean time Steve, this gal that means the world to you, that allowed you to marry up, has made you look that the biggest and most known stooge at the company. As for your career, do you possible believe this is going to have a favorable impact. (about as much as having a spouse that's a known drug dealer)
Want to know what to do to help you understand your willingness to put up with this situation. Get a Psychiatrist.


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## Hicks

She is doing the absolute minimum.

She is willing to give up your retirement, or the custody of the kids - that is just words. Words = nothing.

When a person says you don't trust them if you ask them to take a lie detector test, you are best to assume there is more to the story.

Since she is not willingly and proactively doing what you require of her, and you have said that infidelity is a deal breaker, you should make it crystal clear to her one more time that you will be filing for divorce in X days unless you see her do A, B, C, D.


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## aug

stevekimsly said:


> ...
> 
> I have no idea. There will be no more GNO. She has agreed not to drink except with me. *She has said she will give up part of my retirement she is entitled to after 10 years of marriage. She says that she will give up custody of the kids if it ever happens again. She has made quite a few promises * We have seen a MC a 3 times now. When I walk away from those sessions I feel worse because there was nothing I did to cause this infidelity.
> 
> 
> 
> *Prescribed anti-anxiety *
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> *She doesn't know the guys name or what he does or where he lives.*
> 
> ...
> 
> *She is willing to do anything at this point to keep me around, however, she still hasn’t done some of the stuff that she promised.* She hasn’t spoken to my family, she hasn’t gotten tested, along with a few other requests i made. She says she will but hasn’t. She has however stopped the GNO, stopped the drinking without me, and wants to spend every waking moment with me. Its ok sometimes and its really rough sometimes.
> I sent my kids to my parents for the summer so my wife and I could figure this out.


It doesn't make sense why she's entitled to your retirement money. Are you not both working? Doesn't she have her own retirement money? Why should she get any of your retirement money?

You should immediately get the following down in writing. Make sure she has her own independent legal advice before she signs in order to make the agreement legally tight. 
1. She gives up custody of the kids if she cheats again. 
2. She gives up all rights to your retirement money or any spousal support.
3. If she cheats again, she has to pay child support.


As for her anti-anxiety medication, now you know why she needs them. She has been cheating (either emotionally or physically) for a while. It's her continual unfaithfulness that's making her anxious.

She must take the polygraph.

You should do DNA paternity tests on your kids. If for nothing else, to show how seriously and deep you consider her betrayal, and for your own peace of mind.

If she is currently deeply remorseful, she wouldn't be dragging her feet on doing some of her stuff she promised.


----------



## dusty4

stevekimsly said:


> She has never (and still doesn't) keep passwords to facebook/email/or anything from me. * She is willing to do anything to save the marriage* and says that is was only one mistake in 15 years that she thinks she deserves a second chance.


If that is true, then her little girls nights out should now be over. And reading one of your last replies, looks like that won't happen again. Lets hope she holds to that.

But that is just ONE thing at the minimum that needs to happen.


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## Shaggy

You are seeing that talk is cheap.

She's offered you lots of talk, but little action by her.

Cheat spouses often throw a lot of together time and maybe some sex to make hubby complacent and happy again. It doesn't last. Eventually she'll hope you ease up and let her go back out because you want to show you trust her, or she'll suggest that you need some you time where she gives you space.

Do the poly this week.

Demand she does the std test. No more sex with her until she shows it to you and is clean.

And remind her each and every time. Thus was not a mistake, it was a choice she made, and when she made it she knew it was a deal breaker. But instead of stopping, she asked him to get a condom.


----------



## MicroStorm

stevekimsly said:


> I did and she told me all the details. I still want to believe it was a catastrophic series of events. I can't even think of a similar time this could have happened. She has never been anything but honest.


Obviously nobody wants to believe this about their spouse, but the reality is there are plenty of other times that this could have happened. You say she goes out monthly with these women and seemed to imply from your initial post that she gets home around 2a on some nights. This last event was a unique case in that she didn't get home until 5a, but even under her normal monthly nights out, she could have slept with other men and kept it hidden from you. What kind of happily married woman goes out once a month until 2a with other women? If the coworker hadn't told you about the night out, would your wife ever have come to you about it? Probably not.

You say that she has been open with you about her email accounts and other private matters, but anyone with a double-digit IQ can create false or private accounts that you'd never know about. You're going through a lot and have a lot of emotions, which is understandable. Truth told, you know your wife and situation better than any of us do, so it's easy for us to play armchair therapist here. That said, a lot of this is really fishy and I'd tread with caution.


----------



## jnj express

Your wife was gonna take this deep dark secret to her grave---she came home and told you everything was fine and normal----lying thru her teeth------your gut intervened, and you got lucky and caught her thru one of the co-workers feeling guilty----YOUR WIFE WAS NOT SHOWING ANY GUILT---this whole episode was out of line to what is normal for your lifestyle----now you should go back, and try to pinpoint other things that have seemed out of line---in re: your wife's going out with the girls, and how things were when she came home

Even if this was the 1st time, and I doubt THAT very much------she wants you to forgive her ONE MISTAKE--------A mistake such as this ( it was not a mistake, but a series of destructive choices) does not get forgiven---this was a decision by her, to spread her legs for another man---a supposedly hot young badboy-----and she wanted it---she wanted it knowing---KNOWING---KNOWING---if you found out, her children's life as they know it now---WILL CHANGE FOREVER---that is gospel---whether you R or D---cuz things will never be the same in your household---and they will pick up on it immediately---they may not say anything---but they will know, something is not right, tween you two

The last part----once again---she spread her legs for this hot guy---KNOWING---she was gonna destroy you, possibly/probably forever--------she had absolutely no problem with what she did---so you now have to wonder----what does SHE REALLY WANT

She cannot love you, or the kids, in the same way---if she truly loved you, and you were the most important people in the world to her----this would not have happened----but it did---and she willingly participated---so begs the question---what does she really want

Did she want her one shot with the hot guy, and now she will go back to being the housewife-----that can never happen----your lives WILL NEVER BE THE SAME-----but she got what she wanted---her fantasies, are satisfied---she can dream her dreams----but WHAT ABOUT YOUR DREAMS---what about your kids FUTURE LIVES

Hard decisions----good luck---the one thing I will tell you

TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF, AND YOUR KIDS----your so called wife---at this point---do you really care???????


----------



## AlphaHalf

> And remind her each and every time. Thus was not a mistake, it was a choice she made, and when she made it she knew it was a deal breaker. But instead of stopping, she asked him to get a condom.


She made a choice to cheat and is now trying to justify it by saying it was "only" a one time "mistake". It seems as if she has a sense of entitlement going on. "15 years I never cheated (that you know of) so one "mistake" wont hurt anyone." She had her fun, got caught, and just expects you to deal with it because the 15 years should make up for her "mistake".

As far as your two faced coworkers are concerned there is no need to say anything to them anymore unless its work related. I sure you know everyone at your job knows what happened as well.


----------



## NewM

stevekimsly said:


> I have no idea. There will be no more GNO. She has agreed not to drink except with me. She has said she will give up part of my retirement she is entitled to after 10 years of marriage. She says that she will give up custody of the kids if it ever happens again. She has made quite a few promises.
> 
> She is willing to do anything at this point to keep me around, however, she still hasn’t done some of the stuff that she promised. She hasn’t spoken to my family, she hasn’t gotten tested, along with a few other requests i made. She says she will but hasn’t. She has however stopped the GNO, stopped the drinking without me, and wants to spend every waking moment with me. Its ok sometimes and its really rough sometimes.
> I sent my kids to my parents for the summer so my wife and I could figure this out.


Those are just false promises,unless you have it signed as post nuptial agreement,which she won't to comply and probably won't judging from her other promises.

She told you details and how it happened but did she tell you why she did it?Alcohol is not good enough excuse.


----------



## stevekimsly

> That being said, I'm not so sure you should think she has been unfaithful in the past. It would be incredibly stupid to do what she did in the presence of your co-workers. It doesn't sound like there was any forethought, just a situation that rapidly spiraled down the toilet. I'm not excusing her behaviour as nothing can. Just saying that her actions don't sound like those of a habitual cheater.


That is my thoughts exactly. She ruined her reputation in this small community and her peers. It was totally out of character for her. She always the stand up moral person looking out for others... Why would you do that in front of so many people?


> just a situation that rapidly spiraled down the toilet


She says she has no excuse (besides the intoxication), there is no why, it just happened, and she realized how bad she f*&^% up and how good she had it before.




> Think about what you want from her in order to stay in the marriage. What would be some value back for your pain. How do you level the playing field so you can remain in the marriage. How does she pay for her crime? You need something in return. If you don't get some satisfaction, you'll be living with a hole in your stomach before long.


I feel the exact same way, I want compensation, i want reparations, i want something in return. She has said she will give up my retirement (I just have to get the legal documents drafted). I guess that is something, it just doesn’t feel like enough. 



> Her GFs will no doubt cover for her


While they are her GFs they spend every day with me at work. They want no contact with her as much as she doesn't want contact with them at this point. The GFs were reprimanded by the employer.



> How did your wife act when she got home from her other GNO's?


She went straight to bed, while I took care of the kids. A few times she wanted me to come up stairs and "cuddle" with her but I was pissed so I didn’t. I knew something was wrong.



> She was in control enough to text you


She did not text me until the next morning telling me she was getting a cab home.




> How is she with you now? Does she want you to just get over it already or is she understanding what you are going through?
> 
> Has she shown true remorse?


She is wonderful and appears to be trying however so does want things to move on, she says she doesn’t like seeing me this way.


----------



## AlphaHalf

> She is wonderful and appears to be trying however so does want things to move on, she says she doesn’t like seeing me this way.


She wonderfully wants you to rugsweep her actions away and move on as quick as possible. File the paperwork to get your retirement from her. Protect yourself first then work it out as you see fit.


----------



## Hicks

She wants to rug sweep.

You cannot get past this without her doing the things you require.

You can learn this the hard way if you want.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

stevekimsly said:


> That is my thoughts exactly. She ruined her reputation in this small community and her peers. It was totally out of character for her. She always the stand up moral person looking out for others... Why would you do that in front of so many people?
> She says she has no excuse (besides the intoxication), there is no why, it just happened, and she realized how bad she f*&^% up and how good she had it before.
> 
> 
> 
> I feel the exact same way, I want compensation, i want reparations, i want something in return. She has said she will give up my retirement (I just have to get the legal documents drafted). I guess that is something, it just doesn’t feel like enough.
> 
> 
> While they are her GFs they spend every day with me at work. They want no contact with her as much as she doesn't want contact with them at this point. The GFs were reprimanded by the employer.
> 
> 
> She went straight to bed, while I took care of the kids. A few times she wanted me to come up stairs and "cuddle" with her but I was pissed so I didn’t. I knew something was wrong.
> 
> 
> She did not text me until the next morning telling me she was getting a cab home.
> 
> 
> 
> *She is wonderful and appears to be trying however so does want things to move on, she says she doesn’t like seeing me this way.*


I truly can't stand this mentality.

That's like shooting a 6 year old's puppy, then while they're crying, offering them ice cream and ACTUALLY thinking they'll just "Oh okay" and be all smiles on their way for their soft serve.

She wants to move on because she's not understanding the level of pain, depression and betrayal. The more you show, the more she has to face it. She sees herself as still a good person. She "just made a mistake". Just like how you forgot the eggs that time at the grocery store. She's been a great wife for 15 years....blah blah blah. 

Shut her down every time she tries to rugsweep it.

And you NEED to tell her

"Look 'WS', you've betrayed and hurt me to my core. You took 15 years of a great marriage and FLUSHED IT down the toilet. I can't even look at you most of the day. And you want me to just ignore that. Just PRETEND that nothing happened and to move on. Sorry, it's not that easy and it doesn't work that way. You didn't "make a mistake". You CHOSE to go off and F*&CK another man (say it for emphasis). A mistake is forgetting to buy something at the grocery store. An accident is when someone hits you with their car, unintentionally. Those are things that HAPPEN. Not intentional decisions. What you did was a callous, hateful, destructive, ULTIMATELY selfish DECISION! You knew it was a deal breaker for me and yet I'm sitting here having to face that dilemma. Our children may have to grow up in a broken home and face ALL OF THOSE ISSUES that come from it...because YOU CHOSE to F&%CK someone. So NO, this isn't "going away" easily. This isn't some "small issue". And if you don't start taking your actions and the consequences SERIOUSLY, I'm 100% GONE! DO YOU UNDERSTAND?!?!"


----------



## SkyHigh

She made her choices. She's still making excuses. Now she's making promises, which she clearly doesn't intend to keep...marriage is a promise, and she doesn't seem to give two shakes about that.

I'm sorry, bud....you married a child in a woman's body. File for the D, you really don't deserve this. 

Notice how if the cover was never blown, you'd never know about it, and she'd probably still be sleeping with this guy.


----------



## jnj express

stop with all the retirement crap---1st off ---a good atty would get that tossed---if for nothing else---DURESS---and a judge is gonna agree with him---and the state isn't gonna allow it either---you need to be taken care of---you just don't toss retirement around---the state doesn't wanna feed you---so forget this giving the retirement away

besides---is that all it takes to satisfy the betrayed---he might get some retirement---30 yrs from now------if that's all it takes---just let her back in the marital bedroom, and resume as you were

You are just gonna suck it up anyway---right---give her, her free pass, and move on---


----------



## bryanp

She is rugsweeping and you are in denial. She was so brazen and clearly felt comfortable doing this. It sounds like she just overslept after having sex with him. Her previous GNO's she came home and immediately fell asleep. I guess this time she was just too tired to come home.

It seems amazing to me that you are buying this story. You can bet she had her eyes on this young stud. She did not bother coming home until the next morning? Did you ask her how many times she engaged with this guy? She now says she does not like seeing you this way? How would she be acting if you spent all night screwing some hot chick?

The bottom line is that she spent all night screwing this hot guy and then comes home in the morning and you forgive her and she wants you to get over it? By the way pre-nups and post-nups can be overturned quite easily by a sharp lawyer.

How do you accept the fact that she had her eyes on this hot stud and and got what she wanted all night from him and she has a husband that seems to accept all of this and her story. The next time you have sex with her I guess she will not be thinking of her stud? You are way too accepting of this but it is your life. If you do not respect yourself then who will?


----------



## stevekimsly

> She told you details and how it happened but did she tell you why she did it?Alcohol is not good enough excuse.


She doesn't know why she did it. Thats what I can't figure out. Thats what she wont tell me and WHY is the question I most want to know.

Do you think it is a reasonable request to ask her to tell her family can come clean with mine?


----------



## Tony55

stevekimsly said:


> She is wonderful and appears to be trying however so does want things to move on, she says she doesn’t like seeing me this way.


Tell her to get used to it, this will take years to repair, she will "_see you this way_" for quite sometime. The true test in this will be how long she can put up with the new you, or how long you want to put up with the new her, because rest assured, neither of you will be the same again.

Insecurity and suspicion are your new friends, they will be with you for a long time to come, get comfortable with them because most every thought you have from here on out will be rooted in those two feelings.

T


----------



## Brokenshadow

stevekimsly said:


> She doesn't know why she did it. Thats what I can't figure out. Thats what she wont tell me and WHY is the question I most want to know.
> 
> Do you think it is a reasonable request to ask her to tell her family can come clean with mine?


Why? Because she's an incredibly selfish person. I'm sure there are more reasons, but it's mostly window dressing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bryanp

Holy smokes Steve.

She did it because she wanted to do it otherwise she would not have done it. She had her eyes on this hot stud and went for it. She also knows that she had a husband who would immediately forgive her after some tears she so she absolutely had nothing to lose. Good grief Steve. What is there not to get?


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## Hicks

She did it becuase she went out drinking and drugging with women, got hooked up with men, started feeling horny, got attracted to a particular guy's looks, demeanor and words, and had sex.

This is why all those behaviors must stop. That's why your words and demenaor matter.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

Are you going to make her get the STD tests???

Are you going to schedule a polygraph test???

I say schedule, because I don't think that she'll ever take one. Her(your) problem isn't what happened this one night. There are things that led up to this night.

I think the deeper you dig, the more you'll find. I think that these GNOs have been allot closer in their risky behaviors to the night that she cheated on you than you want to believe.

Avoiding the truths doesn't make them any less truthful.


----------



## Lovemytruck

stevekimsly said:


> She doesn't know why she did it. Thats what I can't figure out. Thats what she wont tell me and WHY is the question I most want to know.
> 
> Do you think it is a reasonable request to ask her to tell her family can come clean with mine?


Steve,

My guts churn when I remember how it was to be in your shoes.

You are, like I was, way to considerate in your situation. This is like swallowing a hand grenade.

Why? The why is because you married someone that is deeply FLAWED. Not your falt. You love her. You didn't know. In the next few months you job will be to realize that she is deeply flawed, and YOU deserve better.

A reasonable request? Bro, you are now in a positition that you MUST MAKE DEMANDS. Demand that she comes clean with the family. Demand a poly. You do this to end the crap, and protect yourself from more damage.

It is a pay me now or pay me later thing. Many of us made the mistake of showing undeserved mercy shortly after d-day. She will use the mercy to her advantage.

We are collectively YELLING the same thing to you. It is so hard to face the facts, but you can do it.

The shock will wear off for you. It will take time. The hurt will deepen as you more fully realize what has happened. The pain initially is buried in your soul, because you still love this monster.

You will probably move through some deep agnoy until you decide that you did not deserve this. It takes time.

My point is that you need to make some swift, tough consequences or your issues will be drug through the mud like a cowboy with his boot hung in the stirrup. 

Get off the pony now.


----------



## betamale

She did it because you always treat her well and she wanted to be treated like an object. She won't tell you "I wanted to be treated like an object". 

Will she do it again? Only if you keep treating her like a Queen.


----------



## Rollin

Tell her she has to sit down with yours and her family and tell them what happened.


----------



## aug

stevekimsly said:


> I feel the exact same way, I want compensation, i want reparations, i want something in return. She has said she will give up my retirement (I just have to get the legal documents drafted). I guess that is something, it just doesn’t feel like enough.



Can you explain this? This makes no sense to me. Doesn't she have her own retirement? You said she smarter and more educated than you, so why isnt she getting paid more or equal to you? 

Why should she have any claim to your retirement money?

Instead, you should be placing a claim on her retirement money as compensation for her cheating.

Your current position on her having claim to your retirement makes no sense.

Maybe she's smarter than you, especially since she can flip it on you to get your retirement money when she has her own.


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## MrK

Did you ask her what went on during all of the other GNO's?  Did she party with men? (of course). Dance with them? (you know it). Flirt a little? (that's WHY they went). Steve, all of those other GNO's were about meeting and partying with men. So this was a mistake? (no). And all of this in front of your work mates. 

And all of this crying now. You're comforting her instead of making her stew in it. She humiliated you publicly. Why don't you get that? Do you know how many men she's partied with over the past year? No, you don't. GET MAD, Steve. I am. A whole bunch of people here are.


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## lifeistooshort

I truly despise the term "mistake" as it's used in these situations. Mistakes are the result of one trying their best, doing what they think is right, and it turns out to be wrong. Mistakes are easy to forgive because the intentions behind them were good. This, like so many have already pointed out, is a purposefully made decision. You have to remember that. I am very happily married, but I do know a couple of men I'd love to f#ck if I was single (could probably get them to f#ck me right now), but I would NEVER make the DECISION to do it and ruin my great marriage. It simply isn't worth it. For whatever reason your wife decided it was. Maybe she thought the one poor decision in 15 years would get her through it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrK

Rollin said:


> Tell her she has to sit down with yours and her family and tell them what happened.


And include detailed descriptions of what went on all of those previous GNO'S. It's a pattern. 

And how she's going to search websites like this for any post that says "let your wife party, dude, you're not her daddy" and fix others of that mentality before they are home babysitting the kids while the wife trolls for strange.

You don't see a connection between this "one time" and all of her other nights partying, do you? Did you EVER sit back and wonder what she's doing at the bars at 1AM? EVER?


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## barbados

She is trying to rug sweep this big time. When she says she just wants things to move on, you tell her "Things will move on on MY time frame (if ever), and not YOURS!"

And if she doesn't like it, she can MOVE ON & MOVE OUT !


----------



## LongWalk

Agreed about the retirement money. It implies that she can sell her pvssy for half of your 401. She ought to place a higher value on it. However, if she proposing a post nup to show commitment, how do you it would even hold up court. Also custody is not an issue. That is a matter that should be decided bsaed ln their wellbeing, not parental ego.

I would want her to write a document about her feelings. How and when did she realize she was going to do it with OM? What did she think when let him put his hand in her panties, etc. This confession should be absolutely frank
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jnj express

I'll tell you exactly why---he is doing nothing, and very slowly---sweeping this under rug

He doesn't want to change his life---if he goes for D----everything as he knows it---is gone---property has to be split---house gets sold---custody, to be determined

He DOESN'T WANNA FACE IT---up till 2 months ago---his life was good---he may have been cheated on, in other GNO-s---BUT HE DIDN'T KNOW IT---he had peace of mind---his life was carefree

Now what is he looking at----Nuclear Winter

Some have zero tolerance---don't care, they don't ever want to look at the cheater again----Steve obviously doesn't wanna go that route


----------



## dogman

stevekimsly said:


> She doesn't know why she did it. Thats what I can't figure out. Thats what she wont tell me and WHY is the question I most want to know.
> 
> Do you think it is a reasonable request to ask her to tell her family can come clean with mine?


She knows why. She just won't say. She's afraid if she admits she was just highly attracted to the other dude, you will want a D or be so hurt you will never recover. 

A person DOES NOT do his without being highly attracted to the ONS partner.

She did it because the attraction was intense. That coupled with alcohol and bam! She was in the sack with him for the rest of the night. 
Sorry.


----------



## bryanp

I agree with one of the previous posters suggested you do:

1. Get her tested for STD's
2. Have paternity testing on your children.

I am pretty sure everything will turn out fine but this is a form of embarrassment for her that her own husband insisted on her being tested for STD's and having her children tested for paternity. This a small small consequence for her actions.

3. A polygraph should be set-up. This way you will find out that she had every intention of having sex with this guy. More importantly you will find out if she has engaged in this type of behavior in her previous GNO.

You must be proactive in this. These are the consequences to her actions. It really is time to man up here. Good luck.


----------



## warlock07

get a post nup with the custody and retirement agreements. She conceded a lot in the guilt of the moment and keep you from leaving. Time to check if she will stick to them..


----------



## JCD

Honestly, I would change jobs. I wouldn't want to see those women ever again and I wouldn't say a nice word about them ever (not saying say nasty words...just no nice ones) The fiscal hit you will be taking is part of her pain and suffering. Shake the dust off your feet. Heck, maybe MOVE somewhere else. If they can move tha ashhole to save his worthless, degenerate life, why the hell can't they move YOU to someplace nicer and maybe with a bigger pay package?

Things that are unclear:

Is she ALSO working where you work? How exactly did your wife hook up with YOUR co-workers if this is not the cas?

How exactly did she transition from 'having dinner' to 'spending the night at some MALE friends' house'? If she could get there, why couldn't she get home? SOMEONE drove her somewhere. Who? (We already know the why...)

Exactly how and why is your management getting involved? They reprimanded the girls and supposedly transfered ashhole. How did they discover this and why are they making it their business? The fact that THEY know it means everyone does.

She's been on GNO's before and she's drank, one assumes. So...if she is REGULARLY taking this anti anxiety medication, how did she NOT know the ramifications of drinking? Or am I getting something wrong?

Why did ashhole move again? Exactly how involved was HE in her seduction and violation?

Hmm...taking a woman on drugs and drunken is actually a version of rape. Is she willing to swear a complaint against ashhole and depose him to find out the name of her 'rapist'? Will she swear out a complaint against the man who helped destroy her marriage?

She will do ANYTHING...except get an STD test...and tell the folks...and get around to taking a polygraph...and ARRANGING HERSELF to get a post-nup done...and...but I think you get the point.

One assumes you aren't having sex with her. Frankly, I would move out of the bedroom until she has an STD test.

Does she work? Does she have a retirement? Why can't she give you HER retirement with signed documents that it's a one time transfer to you and does NOT get pooled into any marital assets if you divorce FOR ANY REASON. This will garner a huge tax hit (it isn't your money so why should you care?) but go to Reno and pretend to lose it all, or just cash the checks and stick it in a mattress for shoebox somewhere. 

Start going out at night without her. Don't tell her a thing. Why should you? Stay out as late as you want. What exactly do you owe her?

I would ignore the fellows who suspect that she's been pulling trains for the last few years every GNO. These ninnies can't even keep it together for one act of infidelity, much less something serious. Not to say it's not possible, just not particularly probable.

How are your interactions with these harridans at work?


----------



## bfree

Steve, just read this thread. Your wife has made a lot of promises but has taken very little action.

Words = regret

Actions = remorse

Its time for you to start demanding actions.


----------



## warlock07

Medications and alcohol are a very dangerous combination. how did she not realize that? Or was it a mistake?

Was she flirting with the guy she cheated with all night or did he make moves when she was in the bed and she went ahead?


----------



## LostViking

stevekimsly said:


> She doesn't know why she did it. Thats what I can't figure out. Thats what she wont tell me and WHY is the question I most want to know.
> 
> Do you think it is a reasonable request to ask her to tell her family can come clean with mine?


She did it because she could and because she wanted to. 

If she cannot admit this to you then there is no chance for you to heal or for her to work on fixing herself. 

It really is that simple.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LostViking

dogman said:


> She knows why. She just won't say. She's afraid if she admits she was just highly attracted to the other dude, you will want a D or be so hurt you will never recover.
> 
> A person DOES NOT do his without being highly attracted to the ONS partner.
> 
> She did it because the attraction was intense. That coupled with alcohol and bam! She was in the sack with him for the rest of the night.
> Sorry.



This is it. Totally.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SkyHigh

She did it because she knows that unless you change, you will allow her to get away with it, time, and time again.

The unfortunate, and often painful reality of being a Doormat Husband.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Wait a sec ... did you say she would be willing to give up custody of her kids if it ever happened again? WTH? I only know a few mothers who would do this under any circumstance without the fight of their lives ... and these are all women of poor character who I wouldn't trust for a second.


----------



## Shaggy

She did it because she wanted too do it, and at the time that want was more important to her than the possibility of loosing you.

She did a quick risk assessment, the chance of you noticing , the chance of you finding out, the chance of you finding out who, the chance of you getting angry, the chance of you divorcing her, and the chance of her being able to be nice , say sorry, and throw some sex at you and you staying.

She did all that an then chose to have sex because it was more important than facing the potential downside,

Now where the drugs and the alcohol came into play are they made her calculations flawed. She though she would be able to cover her bases and not get caught by you.

She came home knowing what she chose to do with him, and how she had to play the game to succeed in not getting caught, she had no quilt, she did have a plan, but it broke when you caught on.

She was likely still groggy from the night before since she'd been out partying for a long night and then up for hours having sex. So she arrived home not at her mental or physical best. So when she tried to cover it up , she wasn't at her best to do it.

If she'd had a little more sleep, or you had waited a few hours before talking with her, she would have had her act fully together and you'd never have caught on.

Now she's negotiating.

I notice you don't report her as being remorseful. Is she changed in anyway by this experience? Is she quieter? Is she more emotional?

Or is she seeing what kind of minimum deal she needs to offer you ?

She's used to getting out with the girls and having social party time and attention from guys. So while she's stopped for now, is she really likely to live like a social hermit forever, or just until you feel comfortable again?

Do the polygraph, if this is the one time, you'll know. She'll also have it as a hard lesson that this really has destroyed your trust in her.


----------



## 4thand11

> I married up (that is to say that she is better looking than me) she has her degree and is hyper intelligent. I am just an average guy who is a good guy.


This in itself is a red flag. Like it or not women have 2 sets of needs - stability and sexual excitement. It sounds possible that you satisfy Need #1 but she went out looking to satisfy Need #2. Perhaps all of her girlfriends do the same, who knows.

The GNO in itself is often little more than a "safe" way to get some of the sexual excitement they are missing. Think about it, why else would a bunch of women go out together to a club etc and get dressed sexy, if they are married? They want the attention of an exciting male. They may have no intention of physically cheating, but the thrill is in the possibility, the interaction with a strange and handsome man.

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but how does the guy she cheated with rank on the attractiveness/power/confidence scale? Would you consider him more of an alpha male than you?


----------



## tom67

Do the polygraph, if this is the one time, you'll know. She'll also have it as a hard lesson that this really has destroyed your trust in her. And buy a couple DNA test kits to show how little you think of her word.


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## JustSomeGuyWho

4thand11 said:


> This in itself is a red flag. *Like it or not women have 2 sets of needs - stability and sexual excitement. It sounds possible that you satisfy Need #1 but she went out looking to satisfy Need #2. Perhaps all of her girlfriends do the same, who knows.*
> 
> The GNO in itself is often little more than a "safe" way to get some of the sexual excitement they are missing. Think about it, why else would a bunch of women go out together to a club etc and get dressed sexy, if they are married? They want the attention of an exciting male. They may have no intention of physically cheating, but the thrill is in the possibility, the interaction with a strange and handsome man.
> 
> Not sure if this has been mentioned, but how does the guy she cheated with rank on the attractiveness/power/confidence scale? Would you consider him more of an alpha male than you?


Sidebar - can someone please notify my wife of need #2? She seems to be quite unaware of that.


----------



## Aunt Ava

Plain and simple....she did it because she wanted to. She did it because she could. 

Alcohol didn't make her do it. And obviously if she was coherent enough to tell him to use a condom she made a coherent choice to have sex with him.

Sadly, I have to other with the many others that it is unlikely this was an isolated event. The two of you discussed cheating and she knew it was a deal breaker for you. If you now falter on your boundaries she will feel free to cross them again and again. 

No one "deserves" a second chance, she can try to earn one ...after the divorce is final.


----------



## LongWalk

I would also want her to talk about how long she been attracted to other men. How bad is this itch?

Some ideas that are thrown about, e.g., HIV, are hysterical. People don't often contract HIV from limited exposure via vaginal sex. That is a fear trip that reeks of insecurity.

Exposure is good and bad. Think deeply about whether you want it. I would want the detailed confession on paper, save the paper copy somewhere secure and save a scanned version as well. 

After that tell her that you may be willing to try R, but if the mind movies are too horrible you'll file for D. She just has to accept that. Moreover, you can tell her that your marriage and relationship will never be the same. That is a sad fact that you must both face. Maybe over time it will heal and be good, but she is the one who has to fix it. Maybe she should come up with the idea of apologizing to your families? Why should you have to do all the thinking? 

One alternative is to file D papers and tell her that you may decide not to go through with it, but you will feel better knowing that you are not trapped in a relationship to which she is not really committed.

At this point 180 must feel natural to you.

Is your wife anxious to have sex with you to paper it over?


----------



## Racer

Ok... I get that you want your two-lbs of flesh. You want restitution and justice. Sorry to say, but it won’t happen. Nothing is going to “make amends”. You are hurt and traumatized that she could do this. 

I’m not sold on the rugsweeping part either based on what you’ve said. More like lost. She also probably has no idea how to ‘make this right again’. If she’s like my own WW, when she accepts this is her fault, she defaults to her core coping mechanisms to deal with it. In my WW, that means recognizing she can’t change the past no matter how much she wants to, so she’ll try to distance herself from it. “The past is the past, I want to focus on the future.” IC can help her sort herself out so she can deal with the past instead of just trying to bury it like a bad dream.

But for you, you simply can’t at this stage help her or guide her. Too much hurt and pain of your own. You are going to have to deal with it. Just do what feels right to you. For most, that does mean placing your needs and healing first and foremost without worrying about her or what’s going on too much. Detachment is your friend. Some decide to divorce, some go off the deep end, some curl up and wither. I personally liked the Zombie.. Dead inside and action based versus trying to think too much while I sorted out myself. Think along the lines of ‘ghosting’ her out of your life until you get to the point where your emotional status has very little to do with her and whatever she is or is not doing. That distance gains you clarity to see if she can even meet your needs anymore. IC can help you sort yourself out too...

MC is pointless at the early stages in my opinion; Unless there are real communication problems.


----------



## warlock07

dogman said:


> She knows why. She just won't say. She's afraid if she admits she was just highly attracted to the other dude, you will want a D or be so hurt you will never recover.
> 
> A person DOES NOT do his without being highly attracted to the ONS partner.
> 
> She did it because the attraction was intense. That coupled with alcohol and bam! She was in the sack with him for the rest of the night.
> Sorry.


I think we should give a little benefit of doubt to the WS here. Alcohol mixed with medication really messes up people. The cheating could have been a real mistkae when her brain is fogged. People do even much worse stuff on Ambien and alcohol. Her actions(except the lying about it part the next moring) don't come off as someone who is a serial cheater


----------



## Aunt Ava

warlock07 said:


> I think we should give a little benefit of doubt to the WS here. Alcohol mixed with medication really messes up people. The cheating could have been a real mistkae when her brain is fogged. People do even much worse stuff on Ambien and alcohol. Her actions(except the lying about it part the next moring) don't come off as someone who is a serial cheater


Warlock, I usually agree wholeheartedly with your posts. BUT ...She wasn't too fogged to kindly request he use a condom.


----------



## warlock07

Aunt Ava said:


> Plain and simple....she did it because she wanted to. She did it because she could.
> 
> Alcohol didn't make her do it. And obviously if she was coherent enough to tell him to use a condom she made a coherent choice to have sex with him.



Not defending the WS but the situation with alcohol and medication is not exactly black and white. Part of your consciousness remain. Like the stuff some do when sleepwalking. Some part of her brain would still be working...


----------



## warlock07

Aunt Ava said:


> Warlock, I usually agree wholeheartedly with your posts. BUT ...She wasn't too fogged to kindly request he use a condom.


I will try to find the link, but I did read an article on this stuff recently. Maybe it is influencing my opinions. Example is walking requires a lot of coordination between many muscles in our body(loss of balance and sense of direction when walking blindfolded). But people who sleepwalk don't have this problem even when they are unconscious during the whole thing. Even funnier is the experience a woman shared about her husband, who wakes up at around 2-3 every morning and makes pancakes while sleepwalking. When he wakes up in the morning, he usually cannot remember anything. I understand that OP's WS mind isn't sleepwalking but the line of her thinking could be --> Guy undressing-> Get a condom. It could have been an automated reaction without much thought behind it. 

Or maybe he should err on the side of deceit. The reason I am saying this, this woman did it in front of his co-workers. That in itself should tell you how bad her decision making skills were that night..


----------



## Racer

warlock07 said:


> Not defending the WS but the situation with alcohol and medication is not exactly black and white. Part of your consciousness remain. Like the stuff some do when sleepwalking. Some part of her brain would still be working...


It can cloud judgment, but not far enough for most to do things they are morally opposed to. So, detach from it a bit.

A series of choices were made. Not just one.

Now the clouded judgment is really considering the ramifications of those actions and the real impact. That's where I see alcohol playing a role. Everything else was what she wanted to do and the alcohol allowed her to 'not think about the impact of her actions'.

At the heart of it: A drunk doesn't do things they don't want to do. She wasn't raped, she made a choice that aligned with what she wanted and a convenient excuse to not think about what might happen.


----------



## dusty4

4thand11 said:


> The GNO in itself is often little more than a "safe" way to get some of the sexual excitement they are missing. Think about it, why else would a bunch of women go out together to a club etc and get dressed sexy, if they are married?


Exactly! And would they go to all that trouble, much less go to a club at all, if there were no men there? Some would defend the practice and say "yes", but I call bulls*** on that


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

warlock07 said:


> Not defending the WS but the situation with alcohol and medication is not exactly black and white. Part of your consciousness remain. Like the stuff some do when sleepwalking. Some part of her brain would still be working...


I agree with the effects you are describing, but not the reasoning you are using. 



> I confronted my wife and she told me she had taken some medication and liquor and went clubbing with the girls.


There is an entire drug culture, yes even adults, that do this for a stronger high. In other words, IMO, it was a purposeful act. Basically, especially when married, it is a way to excuse what you did with little to no repercussions. 

I was high, I screwed that ugly man/woman.
I was high, I didn't want to have sex but I did.
I was high I only remember bits and pieces.

Now, these can be true, but not in the black/white area most would describe.

Nope, I am not condoning forced sex. 

There is a large group of people that purposely CHOOSE to go out this way. They then have an excuse to make bad decisions. They like the random and dangerous sexual activities. Some even claim the rush and their orgasms are stronger. Yes, I know it is all based on personal experiences. I used to be the designated driver because I do not drink. I stopped because I felt guilty as I watched people cheat.

You know the whole:
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

I guess I decided to grow up and I cut those friends loose.

The next thing he needs to check is if she has a hidden addiction to opiates. This may be worse than he thinks.


----------



## Suspecting

One thing seems odd to me. She knows the OM was 10+ younger than her but doesn't know his name. Most people tell/ask the name first when meeting new people. Would be odd to ask age without knowing name. This combined with the co-worker crying when you confronted her makes it seem like they are hiding something and there's more to the story than the ONS. None of the female co-workers know the OM?


----------



## workindad

Plan 9 that part does sound odd regarding the employer. This was not a company sponsored event 

OP why has the employer taken this stance? 

Whatever your choice is. Do not rug sweep. Do not back down. Demand follow thru on her promises of action. See it done. 

Finding out who om is shouldn't be that difficult since coworkers are involved. Someone must know him. That should make finding any prior or post contact with your wife easier to find. 

Also it seems to me she did it be aide she wanted to and believed she would get way with it. 

R or d is up to you but get what you need to heal and resolve this properly. Rug sweeping will only bite you later.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

Why is your employee involved in any of this?


----------



## LongWalk

Suspecting said:


> One thing seems odd to me. She knows the OM was 10+ younger than her but doesn't know his name. Most people tell/ask the name first when meeting new people. Would be odd to ask age without knowing name. This combined with the co-worker crying when you confronted her makes it seem like they are hiding something and there's more to the story than the ONS. None of the female co-workers know the OM?


Sounds like a line in a song. "I don't even know your name"


----------



## LongWalk

workindad said:


> Plan 9 that part does sound odd regarding the employer. This was not a company sponsored event
> 
> OP why has the employer taken this stance?
> 
> Whatever your choice is. Do not rug sweep. Do not back down. Demand follow thru on her promises of action. See it done.
> 
> Finding out who om is shouldn't be that difficult since coworkers are involved. Someone must know him. That should make finding any prior or post contact with your wife easier to find.
> 
> Also it seems to me she did it be aide she wanted to and believed she would get way with it.
> 
> R or d is up to you but get what you need to heal and resolve this properly. Rug sweeping will only bite you later.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe his friend request on WW's Facebook account is still pending.


----------



## Entropy3000

stevekimsly said:


> Lotsa questions to try to answer:
> 
> The female Co-workers and their husbands (my friends) have been going out with, having over for game night, spending holidays together for about 4 years. The male coworker was an acquaintance.
> 
> She would go out for a girls night out once a month ( or every other month) but usualy she was the "responsible one" making sure people get home safe, calling me to pick them up etc.
> 
> 
> I have no idea. There will be no more GNO. She has agreed not to drink except with me. She has said she will give up part of my retirement she is entitled to after 10 years of marriage. She says that she will give up custody of the kids if it ever happens again. She has made quite a few promises We have seen a MC a 3 times now. When I walk away from those sessions I feel worse because there was nothing I did to cause this infidelity.
> 
> 
> She said she would but has not yet. This bothers me.
> 
> She agreed to take a polygraph but she was upset, she said she feels horrible that I cant trust her and she is sorry for making me feel this way.
> 
> 
> Prescribed anti-anxiety
> 
> 
> 
> She wants nothing to do with our so-called friends that left her.
> 
> 
> The male co-worker has moved far far away, he moved a month after the incident. I was asked by my management not to kill him.
> 
> 
> Was a group of 8 girls that went to dinner, then 4 of em went out to the club. They say the met up with the guys at the last bar (prior to stumbling to the dudes house)
> 
> 
> We had some family friends who marriage that was wreaked by infidelity. She knew that infidelity was the deal breaker for me. We had discussed it and she knew.
> 
> They are my co-workers and she doesn't/wont.
> 
> 
> She doesn't know the guys name or what he does or where he lives.
> 
> 
> I did and she told me all the details. I still want to believe it was a catastrophic series of events. I can't even think of a similar time this could have happened. She has never been anything but honest.
> 
> That is some of the answers for the first page. I'll get to the rest later.
> 
> I appreciate people’s views and it has given me a lot to think about.
> 
> She is willing to do anything at this point to keep me around, however, she still hasn’t done some of the stuff that she promised. She hasn’t spoken to my family, she hasn’t gotten tested, along with a few other requests i made. She says she will but hasn’t. She has however stopped the GNO, stopped the drinking without me, and wants to spend every waking moment with me. Its ok sometimes and its really rough sometimes.
> I sent my kids to my parents for the summer so my wife and I could figure this out.


She knows who the guy is. If she really does not the problem is even worse. First off she should not have gone to any man's house. Drinking or no drinking. She went willingly and the seduction with this other guy was already under way. The coworker friends should not have left her to have sex. What femal friend lets another drunk friend stay in a man's house? NFW.

You are being way way to accepting of any of this. This was not a mistake. She willingly had sex with another guy. Figured at owrst she could explain it away.

She did not get tested yet!? This was one opportunity she could have taken a postive action and has not yet. Hopefully you have not had sex yet.

No this is a huge rug sweep and you do not have the truth yet.

I think the things people have brought up before this post are still valid. Meaning even given what you have posted here, the monthly GNOs were the start of her unfaithfulness.

Exactyl what were her interactions with other men before the night she felt ok to go back to a house and bang this guy? There had to have been a ramp up of behavior. She at the very least had been clubbing and dances with other men before. Perhaps going out to the parking lot for make out sessions or whatever. I am not trying to imagine examples. I am saying that she does not get from 0 to breaking the speed of sound in one leap. Thois was something she was down with.


----------



## LongWalk

stevekimsly said:


> 15 years of happy marriage and 3 kids (both of us admit to having a 9/10 marriage in all aspects). I was happy with my wife and she says she was happy with me.
> 
> My wife goes out on a girls night while with three of my female co-workers as I watch the kids. I wake up at 5am to a phone call from her staying she is getting a cab home that she fell asleep at one of my male co-workers house and that her friends (my co-workers) had left her.
> 
> I knew something was up because this is the first time she hasn't made it home. She was acting funny but I wrote it off as a hangover. The next day at work I confronted a co-worker about ditching my wife and said I was disappointing in them for not looking after my wife... She started crying and apologizing... I knew my wife had cheated on me. I confronted my wife and she told me she had taken some medication and liquor and went clubbing with the girls. Later in the evening they randomly met up with a male co-worker of mine and some of his friends. They ended up at his house and she ended up cheating on me with one of his friends (10+ years younger than her). She can and cant remember some of the night after the clubs but does remember at the house kissing/fondling and asking the kid a to wear a condom. She is taking full responsibility for her "mistake". She has answered any question I have had, albeit difficult.
> 
> The betrayal was horrible, my co-workers apparently not calling me or helping her to get out of the situation is makes it even worse. I feel not only betrayed by my wife, but my co-workers/friends.
> 
> She has never (and still doesn't) keep passwords to facebook/email/or anything from me. She is willing to do anything to save the marriage and says that is was only one mistake in 15 years that she thinks she deserves a second chance. Its been two months and I don't seem to be getting better.
> 
> I married up (that is to say that she is better looking than me) she has her degree and is hyper intelligent. I am just an average guy who is a good guy. *Now I feel like I need to compete -- I need to get in better shape (she has never complained or even mentioned this) but the guy she slept with was young and in shape. Get in shape. Go to the gym. Let your wife watch the kids more.I feel I need to finish my degree. How many credits short are you? Can you work less and take the courses you are missing? Let your wife cover the evenings with the kids while you take evening classes.I feel I need to become "better" than she is to move forward so I feel like either A) She will "want" me and this won't happen again or B) If it happens again I will still be marketable in my late 30If you get in shape and finish your degree you sex ranking will go up. Your wife's sex ranking has gone down a notch because if you divorce her, she is the cheating ex.*.
> 
> I don't have a real question other than does it get better... should I give her a second chance? Is it normal to feel like changing my whole lifestyle to not mimic the way it was before?


You defined a battle plan to recover yourself self esteem. Doesn't sound like a bad plan and it doesn't depend on your wife, just you.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Plan 9 from OS said:


> What sucks for the OP is the blowback from the wife's ONS (or her last ONS) may ultimately force them to move to another town if he elects to reconcile with her.
> 
> To be frank, I find it rather surprising that this place the OP works at has as much power in the community as it does. I never heard of an employer that could intimidate employees enough to avoid interacting with another person because of an affair. Either the OP has a lot of pull in this company or this employer is the big dog employer in the region.
> 
> I'm still curious about the male coworker friend of the OM. Moving far away one month after this incident is pretty wild. Was the OM a subordinate of the OP or was he a boss at the company? Lawsuit possibilities?


Smaller towns. I've lived in a couple place like these it is strange.


----------



## TRy

stevekimsly said:


> We had some family friends who marriage that was wreaked by infidelity. She knew that infidelity was the deal breaker for me. We had discussed it and she knew.


 Do you know what "deal breaker" means? In marriage it means that if you cross a given line, the marriage is over; no ifs, ands, or buts. If infidelity was in fact a "deal breaker", you would not be talking the terms of reconciliation with her right now, as you would be filing for divorce and not looking back. She humiliated you in front of your friends and coworkers, knowing that all she had to do is say sorry and you would take her back; and she was right. The other post that you responded to was right when they said "she thought if she ever cheated on you and had sex with another man then you would forgive her anyway so she really had nothing to lose".

You talk the talk, but you do not walk the walk, and your wife knows this.


----------



## dogman

warlock07 said:


> I think we should give a little benefit of doubt to the WS here. Alcohol mixed with medication really messes up people. The cheating could have been a real mistkae when her brain is fogged. People do even much worse stuff on Ambien and alcohol. Her actions(except the lying about it part the next moring) don't come off as someone who is a serial cheater


Sorry man, I'm not buying it. I've been on anti depressants and yes you're a fool if you drink while taking meds. But this is and easy excuse to cover for a build up if even in her own head.

Who remembers Tears. She just out of the blue had a ONS. Later she admitted to dissatisfaction that led to a build up in her own mind and bam! The only question was who was it going to be. 
She waited till the attraction was enough to make the plunge.

Drinking is an excuse EVERYTIME. It is never the reason.


----------



## ThePheonix

Suspecting said:


> One thing seems odd to me. She knows the OM was 10+ younger than her but doesn't know his name. Most people tell/ask the name first when meeting new people. Would be odd to ask age without knowing name. This combined with the co-worker crying when you confronted her makes it seem like they are hiding something and there's more to the story than the ONS. None of the female co-workers know the OM?


Ole Steve didn't read my post. She's prettier than him and that make him willing to tolerate a lot. Like my uncle used to say, "it ain't da size of the dog in de fight, Its the fight in de size of da dog. I don tink dis ole boy got a lot of either."


----------



## Summer4744

She knows why she did it. She either doesn't want to tell you or is lieing to herself.

You should quit worrying whether something is reasonable or else you will be in the same place 5,10,15 years from now. You need to take care of your self.


----------



## Remains

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Wait a sec ... did you say she would be willing to give up custody of her kids if it ever happened again? WTH? I only know a few mothers who would do this under any circumstance without the fight of their lives ... and these are all women of poor character who I wouldn't trust for a second.


Whoaaa! Stop! She didn't say she was willing to give up her kids! Just that these are the lengths she would go to show Steve this would never happen again.

She isn't offering to give up her children FOR ANOTHER man. She is offering NEVER to give up her children FOR her husband. Totally wrong that you should twist the meaning of her statement.

This is a woman who is so desperate that she will show you, Steve, how much she means her word. 

I am sorry but this thread is going wild and this is not good! And this is certainly NOT GOOD for Steve! 

A word of caution, this TAM place can become a little blinkered, forceful, OTT, at times. The advice you get here is great and spot on, but some threads run out of control, and yours is one of the unfortunate ones I'm afraid. People can start getting carried away, and I am reading that this is happening. My god, I think the thread rattled on for 6 pages or so before you even put a second post on to follow up your 1st post! 

The thing is, your wife is displaying all, I mean ALL, the behaviour that TAM folk tell a man he should expect when he is not getting this from his wife!

The clincher is, you have to give it some time to see if her actions will match her words. Time, and a firm hand, sometimes a little guidance when she is slipping on things, especially if she insists on rugsweeping (I mean...insists.....not tries pathetically and then gives in and complies). 

Steve, your wife is showing considerable remorse and OFFERING to do all the right things. She is doing all the things that ALL betrayed spouses on here want or wanted from their Wayward partners. Make sure her actions follow through on her words. She may even need reminding on these, especially as she wants it all to go away.

I agree she needs consequences, she needs to know this can NEVER happen again. The basic advice you have been given is essentially right. Get her to do the poly so that you can make sure this is a once only occurrence....word of caution, poly's are not accurate. You may get a negative even though she is telling the truth and so end up with more problems than you have. What happens if she is telling the truth and the poly says she is not? Read up on theory accuracy. Take more note of her willingness to do one and her actions/reactions in the run up to it. 

And get her to stick actions to her words. 

Make no bones about this, she will want to just forget about it. Human nature. But, rugsweeping does NOT mean guilt. If you don't want her to sweep it under, she should follow your lead. And by her remorse she is currently showing, she should happily go along with all you need and ask for. 

If she starts digging heels in then you have a problem. Then, you need to come and get more advice. If she digs her heels in on following through with her words, or on accepting her consequences, then you have a problem.

Right now, if you wish to R, show the consequences, MAKE her see consequences, and make a good solid foundation for you to begin a new marriage on. Don't let your anger take over because right now it is a very VERY angry situation. Give it some time. It took me 3 weeks to stop feeling the numb zombie stage, 3 months to stop feeling the intense pain. Sorry you are in this situation. It is sh*t!


----------



## betamale

This woman needs to show real remorse, her words are half empty. I disagree with Remains. 

Steve has the opportunity to show how's in charge. No D is needed, nonetheless he needs to act more Alpha, which is very hard since he feels fine being beta. I do to, so I know that it doesn't work being beta when your wife doesn't respect you.


----------



## Entropy3000

stevekimsly said:


> That is my thoughts exactly. She ruined her reputation in this small community and her peers. It was totally out of character for her. She always the stand up moral person looking out for others... Why would you do that in front of so many people?
> She says she has no excuse (besides the intoxication), there is no why, it just happened, and she realized how bad she f*&^% up and how good she had it before.
> 
> 
> 
> I feel the exact same way, I want compensation, i want reparations, i want something in return. She has said she will give up my retirement (I just have to get the legal documents drafted). I guess that is something, it just doesn’t feel like enough.
> 
> 
> While they are her GFs they spend every day with me at work. They want no contact with her as much as she doesn't want contact with them at this point. The GFs were reprimanded by the employer.
> 
> 
> She went straight to bed, while I took care of the kids. A few times she wanted me to come up stairs and "cuddle" with her but I was pissed so I didn’t. I knew something was wrong.
> 
> 
> She did not text me until the next morning telling me she was getting a cab home.
> 
> 
> 
> She is wonderful and appears to be trying however so does want things to move on, she says she doesn’t like seeing me this way.


If my wife was out this late without explanation I would have been calling around to those friends at 3am for sure and probably before that. Then they could tell me where she was at. I would have gotten someone to watch the kids and I would have been there. I would have been worried about her.

Don't get me wrong. I am not blaming you. I do not think drinking is an excuse. HOWEVER, if one thinks that drinking can impair the thinking which it can, then I would be worried with my wife out at the hookup places drinking at all. I would be very worried that someone might take advantage. You had a false sense of security that the other women would protect her.

But for absolute sure I would not be done talking to these other women. If I worked with them, I would in a very low key way speak with them about past exploits and when they left her and why they her with men who could rape her. No doubt the wife pushed them away. But I would have to have a real sense for this. The coworkers should have called the husband. They could simply have called him and said, they were leaving the wife and where she was. I am not buying this story.

I would have expected a call late in the evening. Like 2am when the freaking bars close down. I can see being at a Denny's to have coffee and soem pancakes at 2:30 ish. But I would expect a call where she was at. This has NOTHING to do with trust. It has to do with caring. 3am and no contact? Trouble.


----------



## dogman

Entropy3000 said:


> If my wife was out this late without explanation I would have been calling around to those friends at 3am for sure and probably before that. Then they could tell me where she was at. I would have gotten someone to watch the kids and I would have been there. I would have been worried about her.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I am not blaming you. I do not think drinking is an ezxcuse. HOWEVER, if one thinks that drinking can impair the thinking which it can, then I would be worried with my wife out at the hookup places drinking at all. I would be very worried that someone might take advantage. You had a false sense of security that the other women would protect her.
> 
> Not for absolute sure I would not be done talking to these other women. If I worked with them, I would in a very low key way speak wtih them about past exploits and when they left her and why they her with men who could rape her. No doubt the wife pushed them away. But I would have to have a real sense for this. The coworkers should have called the husband. They could simply have called him and said, they were leaving the wife and where she was. I am not buying this story.



Even my teenagers know that if they're drunk, I will pick them up somehow, someway, no matter what, if they call. If my daughter stayed out till the next day without a call, especially in this cell phone era, it means bad things. I would be searching by 1 am.

This is far from the final story for the OP.


----------



## LongWalk

Remain has given a corrective view. In all threads the OP needs to hear different perspectives to hone in on the "truth" path.

It is possible that unrelenting harshness to a truly repentant spouse might cause despair and resignation, especially when there is a shared notion of a deal breaker. If the marriage is over, the WS doesn't have to fix anything because as one Dday 2 wife said after breaking NC, "what does it matter, it's over anyway."

Maybe there are WW who ONS and regret it, keep it secret and resolve never to stray again. Admittedly, it nasty for them to have to live with the guild bottled up inside.


----------



## Remains

LongWalk said:


> I would also want her to talk about how long she been attracted to other men. How bad is this itch?


I totally agree. This should be an answer you should press hard to get. 

People don't go out and cheat just once in 15 years (if it is once) without a build up to it. The build up being starting to look elsewhere, fancying others, crushes, and then starting to see others as a possibility.


----------



## Brokenshadow

Remains said:


> I totally agree. This should be an answer you should press hard to get.
> 
> People don't go out and cheat just once in 15 years (if it is once) without a build up to it. The build up being starting to look elsewhere, fancying others, crushes, and then starting to see others as a possibility.


That's a great q, but could any BS believe any other answer then an incriminating one?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Remains

Racer said:


> It can cloud judgment, but not far enough for most to do things they are morally opposed to. So, detach from it a bit.
> 
> A series of choices were made. Not just one.
> 
> Now the clouded judgment is really considering the ramifications of those actions and the real impact. That's where I see alcohol playing a role. Everything else was what she wanted to do and the alcohol allowed her to 'not think about the impact of her actions'.
> 
> At the heart of it: A drunk doesn't do things they don't want to do. She wasn't raped, she made a choice that aligned with what she wanted and a convenient excuse to not think about what might happen.


Ever got so drunk that you woke up and don't know how you got home? 

Or even, stuff that you do remember when drunk, memory of the night kind of patchy, and then your friends told you about the totally OFF THE WALL stuff you did or said...ya know, the kind of stuff that you think 'is this true? I would NEVER in a million years do that! Are they winding me up?'. 

I am sure I am probably on my own here, but I'm afraid to say I have endured a few embarrassing morning afters. Thankfully not for a looong time now though.

I think Warlock makes some interesting points on the drugs and alcohol, the sleepwalking.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Remains said:


> I totally agree. This should be an answer you should press hard to get.
> 
> People don't go out and cheat just once in 15 years (if it is once) without a build up to it. The build up being starting to look elsewhere, fancying others, crushes, and then starting to see others as a possibility.



I would argue that most people are attracted to others. We're married, not dead. The real question is how long she's been willing to risk her marriage by acting on it. Most of us look at others, maybe even fantasize a little, then go home to our spouses and use this positive energy on them. She didn't think highly enough of him to do that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Brokenshadow

Remains said:


> Ever got so drunk that you woke up and don't know how you got home?
> 
> Or even, stuff that you do remember when drunk, memory of the night kind of patchy, and then your friends told you about the totally OFF THE WALL stuff you did or said...ya know, the kind of stuff that you think 'is this true? I would NEVER in a million years do that! Are they winding me up?'.
> 
> I am sure I am probably on my own here, but I'm afraid to say I have endured a few embarrassing morning afters. Thankfully not for a looong time now though.


Not to be a jerk, but honestly, how drunk would someone have to be to forget 15 years of matrimony?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Suspecting

Brokenshadow said:


> Not to be a jerk, but honestly, how drunk would someone have to be to forget 15 years of matrimony?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Anti-depressants+alcohol?

If she says she doesn't remember the intercourse it would be rape in fact.


----------



## Brokenshadow

Suspecting said:


> Anti-depressants+alcohol?


Not a chance. I'm on an anti depressant, anti anxiety medication and drink socially. Maybe serious pain meds and alcohol, but not anti depressants.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Entropy3000

dogman said:


> Even my teenagers know that if they're drunk, I will pick them up somehow, someway, no matter what, if they call. If my daughter stayed out till the next day without a call, especially in this cell phone era, it means bad things. I would be searching by 1 am.
> 
> This is far from the final story for the OP.


Exactly. A text. We are not talking about a guy wanting his wife to be constantly calling him. But bad stuff happens after 2am.


----------



## Entropy3000

Remains said:


> Ever got so drunk that you woke up and don't know how you got home?
> 
> Or even, stuff that you do remember when drunk, memory of the night kind of patchy, and then your friends told you about the totally OFF THE WALL stuff you did or said...ya know, the kind of stuff that you think 'is this true? I would NEVER in a million years do that! Are they winding me up?'.
> 
> I am sure I am probably on my own here, but I'm afraid to say I have endured a few embarrassing morning afters. Thankfully not for a looong time now though.
> 
> I think Warlock makes some interesting points on the drugs and alcohol, the sleepwalking.


If you are a faithful wife. You do not take away your abiity to say no. Sorry double standard. That said, I am married I do not get that drunk any more. But I am not likely to get taken advantage of like a woman would. I mean we see these teenage girls get blind drunk and then gang raped. A grown woman who does this is taking risks she should not be taking. I find putting themselves in the hands of other men in this way unfaithful in itself even if they got a way with it. While it is a woman's body, I contend she does not have the right in the context of a marriage to put herself in that condition period. Not without her husband. I do not think the husband has this right either. But he will not have a 100 people lined up to prey on him. He may get beat up and have his wallet taken.

I mean go ahead and detail exploits of the Hangover 1 - 9. A woman is in way more jeopardy than a guy. She is a target.

The worst that can happen to a woman is not even being raped. She could be killed or kidnapped. This seems to be more common than people thought.


----------



## carmen ohio

Dear sk,

Let me make a few observations about your posts:



stevekimsly said:


> 15 years of happy marriage and 3 kids (both of us admit to having a 9/10 marriage in all aspects). I was happy with my wife and she says she was happy with me.
> 
> My wife goes out on a girls night while with three of my female co-workers as I watch the kids. I wake up at 5am to a phone call from her staying she is getting a cab home that she fell asleep at one of my male co-workers house and that her friends (my co-workers) had left her.
> 
> I knew something was up because this is the first time she hasn't made it home. She was acting funny but I wrote it off as a hangover. The next day at work I confronted a co-worker about ditching my wife and said I was disappointing in them for not looking after my wife... She started crying and apologizing... I knew my wife had cheated on me. I confronted my wife and she told me she had taken some medication and liquor and went clubbing with the girls. Later in the evening they randomly met up with a male co-worker of mine and some of his friends. They ended up at his house and she ended up cheating on me with one of his friends (10+ years younger than her). She can and cant remember some of the night after the clubs but does remember at the house kissing/fondling and asking the kid a to wear a condom. She is taking full responsibility for her "mistake". She has answered any question I have had, albeit difficult.
> 
> The betrayal was horrible, my co-workers apparently not calling me or helping her to get out of the situation is makes it even worse. I feel not only betrayed by my wife, but my co-workers/friends.
> 
> She has never (and still doesn't) keep passwords to facebook/email/or anything from me. *She is willing to do anything to save the marriage and says that is was only one mistake in 15 years that she thinks she deserves a second chance.* * [Based on what you say in your later posts, it is not clear whether she is willing to do anything to save the marriage or if she is only willing to say that she is willing to do anything.]* Its been two months and I don't seem to be getting better.
> 
> *I married up (that is to say that she is better looking than me) she has her degree and is hyper intelligent. I am just an average guy who is a good guy.* *[As others have pointed out, this is classic "nice guy" (i.e., beta male) speak and indicates that you are not the kind of man that revs your WW's (or any other woman's) motor. You need to work on this: please read "Married Man Sex Life Primer" by Athol Kay.]* Now I feel like I need to compete -- *I need to get in better shape (she has never complained or even mentioned this) but the guy she slept with was young and in shape. I feel I need to finish my degree. I feel I need to become "better" than she is to move forward so I feel like either A) She will "want" me and this wont happen again or B) If it happens again I will still be marketable in my late 30. [Yes, you do.]*
> 
> *I don't have a real question other than does it get better... should I give her a second chance? Is it normal to feel like changing my whole lifestyle to not mimic the way it was before? [Whether it gets "better" or not will depend on what you do now: sweep it under the rug so that she believes she got away with it and cheats on you again in the future; or demonstrate to her by your actions that this is a once-only second chance and that anything that smacks of infidelity in the future will mean the end or your marriage. Whether you should give her a second chance is a questions that only you can answer but you should not make this decision yet; first determine if she is seriously remorseful and keep close tabs on her to make sure that her adultery did not go further than she admits and has truly ended. As per my comment above, yes, you need to change your lifestyle -- by becoming the kind of man that woman are attracted to (hence the importance of reading MMSLP).]*





stevekimsly said:


> Lotsa questions to try to answer:
> 
> The female Co-workers and their husbands (my friends) have been going out with, having over for game night, spending holidays together for about 4 years. The male coworker was an acquaintance.
> 
> 
> I have no idea. There will be no more GNO. She has agreed not to drink except with me. * She has said she will give up part of my retirement she is entitled to after 10 years of marriage. She says that she will give up custody of the kids if it ever happens again. She has made quite a few promises * *[Have you consulted an attorney about drawing up a post-nuptial agreement yet? If not, why not? Child custody agreements are disfavored by U.S. courts will likely be disregarded but feel free to ask your attorney about this. As I mentioned above, promises mean nothing; only actions count. My guess is that, if you ever put a post-nup in front of her, she will balk at signing it but, definitely, do it and find out if she is serious.]* We have seen a MC a 3 times now. When I walk away from those sessions I feel worse because there was nothing I did to cause this infidelity.
> 
> *
> She said she would but has not yet. This bothers me. [As well it should. The question is, why have you not done anything about her inaction? Again, this is an indication that you are way to "beta." You need to work on this.]*
> 
> 
> *She agreed to take a polygraph but she was upset, she said she feels horrible that I cant trust her and she is sorry for making me feel this way. [If you asked her to take a polygraph test, then you need to make her take it. By failing to follow through, you are teaching her that your words mean nothing and that she can do what she likes with little in the way of consequences. My guess is that you've done this a lot in your marriage and that it is a major contributor to her decision -- and it was a decision -- to cheat on you.]*
> 
> 
> Prescribed anti-anxiety
> 
> 
> She wants nothing to do with our so-called friends that left her.
> 
> 
> The male co-worker has moved far far away, he moved a month after the incident. I was asked by my management not to kill him.
> 
> 
> Was a group of 8 girls that went to dinner, then 4 of em went out to the club. They say the met up with the guys at the last bar (prior to stumbling to the dudes house)
> 
> 
> We had some family friends who marriage that was wreakedby infidelity. *She knew that infidelity was the deal breaker for me. We had discussed it and she knew. [Well, obviously, she didn't know because she cheated anyway. And you haven't filed for divorce, so infidelity isn't (necessarily) a deal breaker for you. This is another example of you saying one thing and doing another or telling her you expect something but then failing to call her out when she doesn't follow through.]*
> 
> 
> They are my co-workers and she doesn't/wont.
> 
> 
> *She doesn't know the guys name or what he does or where he lives. [How do you know this? In fact, how do you know who she had sex with or if this her first time? Don't you think you might be just a little too trusting of what she tells you?]*
> 
> 
> *I did and she told me all the details. [Again, how do you know?] I still want to believe it was a catastrophic series of events. [What does this even mean? She went out with friends, claims to have taken some medicine and had a lot to drink, hooked up with some guy, says she asked him to wear a rubber, had sex with him and then came home and pretended that nothing had happened. I suppose that is a "catastrophic series of events" but not in the way you mean it. Please get this through your head -- your wife cheated on you and then tried to hide the fact; there is no excuse for that. If you don't understand this, then the chances of you having a successful reconciliation and of your WW being faithful in the future are greatly diminished.] I can't even think of a similar time this could have happened. [So you're saying you have been with her every minute of every day since you got married? Get real, people have lots of opportunities to cheat. Most don't but, unfortunately, your WW did -- at least once and, for all you know, this wasn't the first time. All the more reason to insist that she take a polygraph test.] She has never been anything but honest.* *[I suppose I don't have to say what I'm thinking right now.]*
> 
> That is some of the answers for the first page. I'll get to the rest later.
> 
> I appreciate people’s views and it has given me a lot to think about.
> 
> *She is willing to do anything at this point to keep me around, however, she still hasn’t done some of the stuff that she promised. She hasn’t spoken to my family, she hasn’t gotten tested, along with a few other requests i made. She says she will but hasn’t. [As I said before, your failure to insist that she follow through with her promises is a big problem. If someone stole something from you, promised to give it back but then didn't, would you just sit around hoping that they would eventually return it? Well, your WW stole something more valuable than any of your material possessions and has promised to start to make things right, so why haven't you demanded that she do what she's promised and let her know that, if she doesn't do these things immediately, you will file for divorce?]* She has however stopped the GNO, stopped the drinking without me, and wants to spend every waking moment with me. Its ok sometimes and its really rough sometimes.
> I sent my kids to my parents for the summer so my wife and I could figure this out.






stevekimsly said:


> That is my thoughts exactly. She ruined her reputation in this small community and her peers. *It was totally out of character for her. She always the stand up moral person looking out for others... Why would you do that in front of so many people?  [This is an example of your tendency to put your WW on a pedestal. You need to stop that. The truth is that, by now, you should realize that there is a lot about your WW (her morals, her desires and,yes, her character that you don't know. Your job now is to find out about these things before you make a decision whether to reconcile or not.]*
> 
> 
> *She says she has no excuse (besides the intoxication), there is no why, it just happened, and she realized how bad she f*&^% up and how good she had it before. [Ah, the great imponderable -- why do seemingly decent woman cheat on there husbands and boyfriends? Actually, the answer is rather obvious: because they want to, they don't respect their spouse (or boyfriend) and they either think they can get away with it or don't care if they get caught. Of course, few WWs are willing to admit this to their BHs and therefore, since there is no other possible reason ("I slipped and accidentally fell on his d*ck" being just a little too unbelievable for even the most gullible BH) they give the next best answer, "It just happened" (which is really just a variation of the slip and fall excuse). BTW, while I've referred to WWs in this case, the same applies to WHs, they too cheat because they want to, etc. But everybody knows this; it's only poor, innocent females that can get away with the "I don't know why I did it" excuse in today's Western culture.]*
> 
> 
> I feel the exact same way, I want compensation, i want reparations, i want something in return. She has said she will give up my retirement (I just have to get the legal documents drafted). *I guess that is something, it just doesn’t feel like enough.  [You don't feel like it's enough because it's not enough. What you need from your WW is the full truth about what happened and for her to demonstrate her remorse by doing what she's said she'd do and anything else you need of her. You also need time to decide whether you can get past this or not.]*
> 
> 
> While they are her GFs they spend every day with me at work. They want no contact with her as much as she doesn't want contact with them at this point. The GFs were reprimanded by the employer.
> 
> *
> She went straight to bed, while I took care of the kids. A few times she wanted me to come up stairs and "cuddle" with her but I was pissed so I didn’t. I knew something was wrong. [As others have said, GNOs are an invitation to cheating. More importantly, though, why did you allow your WW to do something that made you "p*ssed"? This is pure passive-aggressive/beta behavior. The lesson is, the next time your WW does something you don't like, let her know immediately, tell her what you want her to do instead and, if she refuses, give her consequences.]*
> 
> 
> She did not text me until the next morning telling me she was getting a cab home.
> 
> 
> *She is wonderful and appears to be trying however so doeswant things to move on, she says she doesn’t like seeing me this way. [This is just another example of you putting your WW on a pedestal. The fact that you can do it even after she betrayed you is an indication of how far you have to go to regain your self-respect and her respect for you. Again, the best way to start is to read MMSLP.]*[*/*QUOTE]
> 
> 
> OK, I've hit you pretty hard so let me finish with a few words of encouragement. Your not the first nor will you be the last guy to respond the way you have to your WW's adultery. This is the result of decades of feminist bullsh*t being foisted upon both men and women in the Western world. The good news is that you can change and become the kind of man that your WW (and other woman) admire, respect and want to be with. When that happens, you will have the interesting choice of either staying with your WW or going out and finding someone better (and believe me, there are lots of woman better than your WW). Don't despair. Do your homework, start to make improvements to yourself, don't take any more sh*t from your WW and it won't be long before you will start to see a new and better life.
> 
> Best wishes.


----------



## dogman

Entropy3000 said:


> Exactly. A text. We are not talking about a guy wanting his wife to be constantly calling him. But bad stuff happens after 2am.



My wife has a girls afternoon every now and then. But truthfully bad stuff happens after 10 pm in bars. A married person has no business in a bar after 10 unless its a special occasion and is with their spouse. JMHO


----------



## Entropy3000

dogman said:


> My wife has a girls afternoon every now and then. But truthfully bad stuff happens after 10 pm in bars. A married person has no business in a bar after 10 unless its a special occasion and is with their spouse. JMHO


I totally agree. This is a lifestyle problem.


----------



## Remains

betamale said:


> This woman needs to show real remorse, her words are half empty. I disagree with Remains.
> 
> Steve has the opportunity to show how's in charge. No D is needed, nonetheless he needs to act more Alpha, which is very hard since he feels fine being beta. I do to, so I know that it doesn't work being beta when your wife doesn't respect you.


We don't really know how he is acting or following through with actions and consequences. And how can you say he is beta! It is not really that clear I would say. Steve has written 5 posts so far, I don't even know if all 5 are even on this thread, but all other posters have made 13 pages with very little input from Steve. 

To bandy around alpha and beta at this point, to be so sure his wife is remorseless, is just plain wrong on my opinion. I would say that offering up no more drinking, giving up any monetary value she may be entitled to if she ever does it again, giving up her children FFS, this is a woman who is desperate to show remorse and desperate not to lose her husband. At least she was when she said those things. Time will tell.

You may be right, you may not, but there is not enough info yet to be firm in assertions like those!

Edit: hmm, I just read carmen ohio...he makes some good points. Though we don't really know what Steve has done yet in his responses to his and wife's issues. The shock phase is quite crippling for many/most and he is no doubt just trying to get his head round it all right now. Standing firm and kicking some ass should hopefully follow.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Remains said:


> Whoaaa! Stop! She didn't say she was willing to give up her kids! Just that these are the lengths she would go to show Steve this would never happen again.
> 
> She isn't offering to give up her children FOR ANOTHER man. She is offering NEVER to give up her children FOR her husband. Totally wrong that you should twist the meaning of her statement.
> 
> This is a woman who is so desperate that she will show you, Steve, how much she means her word.
> 
> I am sorry but this thread is going wild and this is not good! And this is certainly NOT GOOD for Steve!


I am not twisting her words, I am taking them literally. She said very plainly according to OP that she is willing to give up custody if she ever did this again. I am not suggesting that she would so easily give up her children or that she would be willing to give them up so that she could have OM. What I heard was 1) "I swear on the lives of my children" ... red flag, and 2) most mothers would rather jump into a vat of boiling lava than give up their children ... it's not something you would offer even if you had no intention of being in the position to follow through with it. Even as my daughter's father, THAT is not something I would say under any circumstance, even if it was to prove how desperate I was to stay in the marriage. I would give up the clothes on my back before I gave up my children ... or even just suggested it.

In the absence of some other things that a desperate wife would do, this is a red flag to me.


----------



## Suspecting

Brokenshadow said:


> Not a chance. I'm on an anti depressant, anti anxiety medication and drink socially. Maybe serious pain meds and alcohol, but not anti depressants.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OK, the exact OP's words were _*"she told me she had taken some medication and liquor"*_. So not maybe anti-depressants but there is a high chance they were of the type like diazepam that will make you go hmm with alcohol. Why else would she had taken them? Or she could be lying we don't know.


----------



## jnj express

All of you are going on and on about the alcohol+drugs---etc, etc,etc

You know what----the real villin here is the GNO----SHE F'ing WENT IN HARMS WAY EACH AND EVERY TIME

If this was her 1st time (having sex)---she had possibly years of being in the middle of all of this sexual tension, and watching all of these PUA at work, and all of this hot body rubbing dancing---keep on putting it all together, and sooner or later---SHE WANTED IN

Any H---who would let his wife go on GNO---to ANY PLACE WHERE THIS KIND OF STUFF GOES ON IS A FOOL

There are hundred's of things for women to do, that DO NOT INCLUDE GOING INTO THE LIONS DEN------where the action is all around you, and the alcohol is there for the taking

If a wife were to balk at a H, protesting that she was going to a bar, dance Hall, Club---then as far as I am concerned----there would need to be a serious talk about where this mge is going---cuz the innocent H---has no chance---if his wife goes into harms way

This situation right here---it very well could have been her 1st time---no one actually knows---all we can do is surmise from the facts---but in this situation---thier last stop, here comes this hot young fit sexy badboy---and she wasn't gonna stop herself---she wanted him, and her family had no chance---and Nuclear Winter just set in

She came home by Cab, at 5 a m ----after the last stop at the last bar----when it was decided that the girls AND newly met guys---would go over to this male co-workers house----Steve's Wife---SHOULD HAVE RESPECTED HER VOWS---SAID TO HERSELF I AM A WIFE AND MOTHER---GOTTEN HERSELF A CAB AND GONE HOME-----did she do that he*l no----she was way to into this guy---and it was like her family NEVER EXISTED---it didn't matter that she had some pills and alcohol----her H, lost her when he said yes to the FIRST GNO LONG BEFORE THAT

This same line of thinking goes the other way---if a H, wants to go to strip joints etc.

There are certain things that just cannot be permitted, and if the spouse that is pushing to go into harms way doesn't understand that---then the mge, has a major problem NO MATTER WHAT ELSE IS HAPPENING

IMHO---this is the most destructive type of situation for the betrayed to have to face---knowing that the spouse didn't fall in love, or have a long working A---they just out and out decided---screw their partner---I want someone else to have sex with, and I don't care whether you my H/W like it or not

This has got to be very hard to get over-------that a spouse would just go out and go looking for someone to have sex with----or as was probably this case----be part of a situation where they got set up, to have sex with another

Her 3 buddies leaving her----reeks of a set up----I think they might have tried to protect her---if it was someone none of them knew----and very probably the cheater in this case just may have gotten sh*t-faced---so she could go thru with the sex

Who knows---whats the difference---one more ruined family for life---add their names to the statistics list


----------



## Brokenshadow

Suspecting said:


> OK, the exact OP's words were _*"she told me she had taken some medication and liquor"*_. So not maybe anti-depressants but there is a high chance they were of the type like diazepam that will make you go hmm with alcohol. Why else would she had taken them? Or she could be lying we don't know.


Fair enough. If they were ADs she probably wouldn't take them while she was out. Maintenance meds are taken in the morning, or more typically before bed. If she's mixing painkillers and booze, that's a whole nother issue. Trust me, my WW is an opiate addict, and they can screw people up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Entropy3000

Suspecting said:


> OK, the exact OP's words were _*"she told me she had taken some medication and liquor"*_. So not maybe anti-depressants but there is a high chance they were of the type like diazepam that will make you go hmm with alcohol. Why else would she had taken them? Or she could be lying we don't know.


She may or may not have taken anything. But this is the best excuse she has. I still do not see how this equates to her banging this other guy.


----------



## dusty4

GNO means no guys allowed. Well, no boyfriends and husbands anyway.

I agree with jnj. Everyone is focusing on the medication and alcohol. That isn't the culprit. The culprit is partying. Married people don't need to go out and party til the wee hours of the morning. If they feel the need, then they shouldn't be married.

Now going out as a couple socially is all fine. But there is a reason when someone wants to party without their significant other. And it aint to just talk to the same sex (unless they are gay)


----------



## Remains

Brokenshadow said:


> Not to be a jerk, but honestly, how drunk would someone have to be to forget 15 years of matrimony?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My response was purely to the one I quoted which the most pertinent point of it was....

"A drunk doesn't do things they don't want to do. " 

....because I'm afraid I have. Pretty much youthful stupidity....stupid stuff I said and did. Falling over for one! I certainly didn't want to do that! 

Certainly not excusing. And no way, a married person should not be going out and getting in that state! Ever. But as Steve said, his wife was always the sensible one, made sure people got home ok etc. But....this night she had had medication also....


----------



## Entropy3000

jnj express said:


> All of you are going on and on about the alcohol+drugs---etc, etc,etc
> 
> You know what----the real villin here is the GNO----SHE F'ing WENT IN HARMS WAY EACH AND EVERY TIME
> 
> If this was her 1st time (having sex)---she had possibly years of being in the middle of all of this sexual tension, and watching all of these PUA at work, and all of this hot body rubbing dancing---keep on putting it all together, and sooner or later---SHE WANTED IN
> 
> Any H---who would let his wife go on GNO---to ANY PLACE WHERE THIS KIND OF STUFF GOES ON IS A FOOL
> 
> There are hundred's of things for women to do, that DO NOT INCLUDE GOING INTO THE LIONS DEN------where the action is all around you, and the alcohol is there for the taking
> 
> If a wife were to balk at a H, protesting that she was going to a bar, dance Hall, Club---then as far as I am concerned----there would need to be a serious talk about where this mge is going---cuz the innocent H---has no chance---if his wife goes into harms way
> 
> This situation right here---it very well could have been her 1st time---no one actually knows---all we can do is surmise from the facts---but in this situation---thier last stop, here comes this hot young fit sexy badboy---and she wasn't gonna stop herself---she wanted him, and her family had no chance---and Nuclear Winter just set in
> 
> She came home by Cab, at 5 a m ----after the last stop at the last bar----when it was decided that the girls AND newly met guys---would go over to this male co-workers house----Steve's Wife---SHOULD HAVE RESPECTED HER VOWS---SAID TO HERSELF I AM A WIFE AND MOTHER---GOTTEN HERSELF A CAB AND GONE HOME-----did she do that he*l no----she was way to into this guy---and it was like her family NEVER EXISTED---it didn't matter that she had some pills and alcohol----her H, lost her when he said yes to the FIRST GNO LONG BEFORE THAT
> 
> This same line of thinking goes the other way---if a H, wants to go to strip joints etc.
> 
> There are certain things that just cannot be permitted, and if the spouse that is pushing to go into harms way doesn't understand that---then the mge, has a major problem NO MATTER WHAT ELSE IS HAPPENING
> 
> IMHO---this is the most destructive type of situation for the betrayed to have to face---knowing that the spouse didn't fall in love, or have a long working A---they just out and out decided---screw their partner---I want someone else to have sex with, and I don't care whether you my H/W like it or not
> 
> This has got to be very hard to get over-------that a spouse would just go out and go looking for someone to have sex with----or as was probably this case----be part of a situation where they got set up, to have sex with another
> 
> Her 3 buddies leaving her----reeks of a set up----I think they might have tried to protect her---if it was someone none of them knew----and very probably the cheater in this case just may have gotten sh*t-faced---so she could go thru with the sex
> 
> Who knows---whats the difference---one more ruined family for life---add their names to the statistics list


The going over to the guys place would be for sure the dealbreaker for me. Even if they played vidoe games.

So this has turned into just another thread seeking a scenario where a ONS is ok because the drinking made them do it. Right.

I think if anyone buys into this then everytime they go out drinking they are putting themselves out there. I think we all can drink and get pretty lit up and still not stick our erections in women and I see no excuse for a woman spreading her legs. People do this because they want to.


----------



## dusty4

Entropy3000 said:


> The going over to the guys place would be for sure the dealbreaker fo me. Even if they played vidoe games.
> 
> So this has turned into just another thread seeking a scenario where a ONS is ok because the drinking made them do it. Right.


Well I haven't had time to read every page, but from what I am reading in people's responses is that she seems to remember everything BUT the sex. Uh huh.  Very convenient.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

SteveK: you said earlier in a post that:

"I need to get in better shape (she has never complained or even mentioned this) but the guy she slept with was young and in shape. I feel I need to finish my degree. I feel I need to become "better" than she is to move forward so I feel like either A) She will "want" me and this wont happen again or B) If it happens again I will still be marketable in my late 30."

here's how I would change that --
"I need to get in better shape, and I feel I need to finish my degree. I feel I need to become "better" to move forward so I feel like I will still be marketable in my late 30."

If you feel that some self improvement is in order then by all means get after it. with a bit of that, and being in your late 30s as you say, I'd say you stand about a 100% chance of finding someone better than her. As others have said she's now demonstrated to you that you married "down" - not "up." Leave her and you won't end up teaching your children (through your actions) that one must accept a certain amount of humiliation in marriage - perhaps even a significant amount - to "keep a family together."


----------



## Gabriel

Not sure if OP is going to be that involved in the thread. But yeah, GNOs every month is a lot. Her boundaries were likely loosening a little bit each time out. 

And I think a reasonable GNO from time to time is perfectly fine. But not being out really late at bars that late at night over and over again.


----------



## stevekimsly

Remains said:


> We don't really know how he is acting or following through with actions and consequences. And how can you say he is beta! It is not really that clear I would say. Steve has written 5 posts so far, I don't even know if all 5 are even on this thread, but all other posters have made 13 pages with very little input from Steve.
> 
> To bandy around alpha and beta at this point, to be so sure his wife is remorseless, is just plain wrong on my opinion. I would say that offering up no more drinking, giving up any monetary value she may be entitled to if she ever does it again, giving up her children FFS, this is a woman who is desperate to show remorse and desperate not to lose her husband. At least she was when she said those things. Time will tell.
> 
> You may be right, you may not, but there is not enough info yet to be firm in assertions like those!


I have had the respect of my wife and my peers my whole life. I did treat my wife like a princess. Our sex life has been great since we were first met.. Reading some of these posts has been sobering and has woke me up from the fog I was in. I think it was a one time occurance fuel by alcohol and drugs; however she should not have been I that position and she still betrayed me. I think the fact that so many people were around shows her complete lack of judgement. By the way, I worked that morning and was asleep by 11pm. My wicr had 100% trust. I have filed D. The company I work for is not important, just know that uncle sam signs my paycheck. She still has no idea why, she was attracted to the kid and only remember a few details of the convo. I get that, ****, ive had many drunk convos whefe I dont remember **** the next morning. Bottom line for me is I will have her and my children respect me.... who knows a few years down the road maybe one of my daughter s will stand up for themselves.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Remains

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> In the absence of some other things that a desperate wife would do, this is a red flag to me.


Good points. 

I think where you said 'I swear on my kids lives' was the clincher for me. I heard that one! And guess what.....

However, I still don't necessarily agree with the assertion you placed. I am on the fence.


----------



## Gabriel

:scratchhead:So in the 6 hours between your last two posts you filed for divorce?


----------



## Suspecting

Gabriel said:


> :scratchhead:So in the 6 hours between your last two posts you filed for divorce?


You can do it online in many places these days.


----------



## doubletrouble

Remains said:


> Ever got so drunk that you woke up and don't know how you got home?
> 
> Or even, stuff that you do remember when drunk, memory of the night kind of patchy, and then your friends told you about the totally OFF THE WALL stuff you did or said...ya know, the kind of stuff that you think 'is this true? I would NEVER in a million years do that! Are they winding me up?'.
> 
> I am sure I am probably on my own here, but I'm afraid to say I have endured a few embarrassing morning afters. Thankfully not for a looong time now though.
> 
> I think Warlock makes some interesting points on the drugs and alcohol, the sleepwalking.


I got so drunk once that I awoke to the phone ringing and the gal I was with the night before asking if I wanted my Cadillac back? 

Tequila.... She dropped me off and drove herself home. 

Apparently I also was grab assing at the bar, something I never EVER do, and hitting on all sorts of women. I just don't even KNOW who that guy was. 

I no longer drink tequila!


----------



## Remains

Glad you managed to find the time to plough through all who wrote. I didn't think we'd see you for some time now due to your thread being such a hive of activity and spending all your time trying to get to the elusive last post! 

Is the divorce a consequence with a view to possibly R or is it a signal of the end is nigh? Or do you just not know?

Either way, you are doing the right thing. Hard and real consequences are a great tonic for bad actions.


----------



## workindad

Uncle Sam signs my paychecks as well. I guess things are different where we work.

I hope you have thought long and hard about divorce. Filing doesn't mean you must get divorced. While divorce worked well for me, it isn't an easy path to navigate.

Just curious, would you be willing to attempt a proper reconciliation if your wife demonstrated follow through on her promises? Not an area I have positive experience with but others on this board do. 

Whatever you plan- best of luck
WD


----------



## doubletrouble

Steve, regarding self improvement. Go ahead, do what makes you feel better about yourself. Don't do it for her. 

When my WW and I met up I was as fit as I'd been since I was 19. I'm tall, which she likes. I'm good looking (she's always told me) and I'm successful. Very marketable, as they say. 

The guy she cheated on me with was also tall, but nerdy and skinny (which she has never liked -- I've known her a long time), not as good looking, and although successful, no more than I am. 

I didn't understand it, but while she was in her fog he was the best thing since, well, me.

So it doesn't matter what you look like to yourself when she cheats on you. It could be any guy. Just make sure that anything you do, you do to improve yourSELF, not for her.


----------



## Gabriel

Suspecting said:


> You can do it online in many places these days.


It's not that. Just seems like a sudden decision given what he was saying before. Like he read some posts in between and went straight for the D papers.


----------



## jnj express

As to R, or not-----once again---I think its the type of cheating that went on, that has some bearing

You might R, under lots of different circumstances----maybe problems in the mge lead to a situation that the cheater reaches out (never condoned but happens) to someone who shows them a shoulder to lean on---and they get led astray-----------long A's that are fueled by many things-----and there is always disrespect----but this kind of situation---where the wife just kept going to bars, with her female buddies---time and again---or even as this situation indicates---got set up with a hot younger fitter guy----how does the innocent, staying at home taking care of the kids, husband handle THAT

What does that make him think of himself-----he's got a wife that is out there getting herself set up with a younger guy----or conversely---she is out looking, finds a guy and spreads her legs---again---what can she actually be thinking of her H

In this instance---these 8 women moved around from place to place---they probably moved on when the prospects of fun at one place dried up---they moved to another place---and in this situation it was the last place they hit---where "bingo" at least for Steve's wife----4 of the 8 women---had enuff sense to go home, to whatever was at home waiting for them-----steve's wife---who had her OWN FLESH AND BLOOD CHILDREN AT HOME, ALONG WITH HER INNOCENT H, AT HOME TRUSTING HER, AND WAITING FOR HER----what does she do---she goes to another mans apt, and has foreplay and then spreads her legs for this younger studmuffin----and please stop with the BS---justification of alcohol and drug mix---SHE F'ing KNEW WHAT SHE WAS DOING AS SHE WENT THRU STOP SIGN AFTER STOP SIGN---topping it all off---by coming home and lying about what she did the previous night----if she was so guilt ridden and remorseful----and wanted her mge---she would have "outed" herself---instead her H, had to find out from one of her friends

IMHO---this is just a very nasty type of adultery for the betrayed to have to deal with and overcome


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

0 to D in about 6 hours.

I didn't see that comming.

Honestly though, I don't think that her getting drunk and cheating that one night is the beginning and the end of this.

This all started in motion long before she had sex with another man that one night.

If you are serious about a divorce, you'll find out quick if she's truly remorsful. She'll be begging and pleading for you to reconcider.

If she gets p1ssed and starts bad mouthing you, this probably wasn't her first rodeo. She got use to living dual lives and she's not happy that you're (finaly)putting an end to it.


----------



## betamale

I thought your marriage was workable, but filed for D will show her the real consecuences of her actions. 

Anyway, It takes courage to file for D. You'll feel better now.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

dogman said:


> My wife has a girls afternoon every now and then. But truthfully bad stuff happens after 10 pm in bars. A married person has no business in a bar after 10 unless its a special occasion and is with their spouse. JMHO


I've been telling my kids this for YEARS. My boy wants to play football. Every time one of these athletes screw up I show him their story, no matter how disturbing. 

We have a saying "what happens on the street after midnight?" 
"Nothing good."


----------



## dogman

stevekimsly said:


> I have had the respect of my wife and my peers my whole life. I did treat my wife like a princess. Our sex life has been great since we were first met.. Reading some of these posts has been sobering and has woke me up from the fog I was in. I think it was a one time occurance fuel by alcohol and drugs; however she should not have been I that position and she still betrayed me. I think the fact that so many people were around shows her complete lack of judgement. By the way, I worked that morning and was asleep by 11pm. My wicr had 100% trust. I have filed D. The company I work for is not important, just know that uncle sam signs my paycheck. She still has no idea why, she was attracted to the kid and only remember a few details of the convo. I get that, ****, ive had many drunk convos whefe I dont remember **** the next morning. Bottom line for me is I will have her and my children respect me.... who knows a few years down the road maybe one of my daughter s will stand up for themselves.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



So why is my stress level so much lower than it was before this post? 
Oh yeah! It's because I'm so happy that Steve has taken the D route. If it turns around later that's great but Steve, you have to take back control in a totally F-ed up situation, and yes your kids need to know their father has self respect.

By the way my father showed me he had self respect and its had a huge effect on my life.

Good for you.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

dogman said:


> So why is my stress level so much lower than it was before this post?
> Oh yeah! It's because I'm so happy that Steve has taken the D route. If it turns around later that's great but Steve, you have to take back control in a totally F-ed up situation, and yes your kids need to know their father has self respect.
> 
> By the way my father showed me he had self respect and its had a huge effect on my life.
> 
> Good for you.


:iagree:

This is key. The most important thing to remember is the D serves a couple purposes.

1. It puts to rest the marriage your wife killed.
2. It shows you won't stand for her behavior

Those 2 are HUGE issues. You'll find yourself thinking clearer and stronger. You'll gain your self confidence back quicker. It's an amazing thing.

What a D doesn't do is permanently remove your STBxW from your life forever, unless you want it to. You have the option of continuing a relationship with her and rebuilding what was destroyed. Just don't say "starting fresh". You're not and you cant.


----------



## JCD

Remains said:


> Ever got so drunk that you woke up and don't know how you got home?
> 
> Or even, stuff that you do remember when drunk, memory of the night kind of patchy, and then your friends told you about the totally OFF THE WALL stuff you did or said...ya know, the kind of stuff that you think 'is this true? I would NEVER in a million years do that! Are they winding me up?'.
> 
> I am sure I am probably on my own here, but I'm afraid to say I have endured a few embarrassing morning afters. Thankfully not for a looong time now though.
> 
> I think Warlock makes some interesting points on the drugs and alcohol, the sleepwalking.


Um...no. And that includes the night I drank 3/4 of a bottle of Long Island Ice Tea mix and could barely walk. Granted I DID hit on the wife of a cop that night, but I recall it and I knew what I was doing (seemed like a good idea at the time)

I did NOT rub her knobs. Have also been very drunk with some VERY willing girls. Didn't indulge.

BUT...I might have a very high tolerance for alcohol. And add the drugs...I might buy it. But why was she ignorant of the effects?

Steve, who cares if you are mad? You have every right to be mad. You do NOT need to make a decision now. But I can tell you this much, every time you see those women at work, every time you see them together and laughing, you are going to trigger like crazy. All you need is to hear a conversation about where they are going out next Friday and it will be like it happened last night.

Consider that carefully. I do not think you can heal where you are.


----------



## golfergirl

I have an allergy to something in rum and in Schloss Lauderheim. Something in those drinks cause me to black out on relatively small quantities. But I figured that out in my 20's. I didn't wake up at 5am fit to go home all was well either. I was good and zonked til past noon. As I said I have had those 2 black outs, but I was passed right out. My friends looked out for me during the rum incident and my H did during the wine incident. Steve, sorry you find yourself in this situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Entropy3000

jnj express said:


> As to R, or not-----once again---I think its the type of cheating that went on, that has some bearing
> 
> You might R, under lots of different circumstances----maybe problems in the mge lead to a situation that the cheater reaches out (never condoned but happens) to someone who shows them a shoulder to lean on---and they get led astray-----------long A's that are fueled by many things-----and there is always disrespect----but this kind of situation---where the wife just kept going to bars, with her female buddies---time and again---or even as this situation indicates---got set up with a hot younger fitter guy----how does the innocent, staying at home taking care of the kids, husband handle THAT
> 
> What does that make him think of himself-----he's got a wife that is out there getting herself set up with a younger guy----or conversely---she is out looking, finds a guy and spreads her legs---again---what can she actually be thinking of her H
> 
> In this instance---these 8 women moved around from place to place---they probably moved on when the prospects of fun at one place dried up---they moved to another place---and in this situation it was the last place they hit---where "bingo" at least for Steve's wife----4 of the 8 women---had enuff sense to go home, to whatever was at home waiting for them-----steve's wife---who had her OWN FLESH AND BLOOD CHILDREN AT HOME, ALONG WITH HER INNOCENT H, AT HOME TRUSTING HER, AND WAITING FOR HER----what does she do---she goes to another mans apt, and has foreplay and then spreads her legs for this younger studmuffin----and please stop with the BS---justification of alcohol and drug mix---SHE F'ing KNEW WHAT SHE WAS DOING AS SHE WENT THRU STOP SIGN AFTER STOP SIGN---topping it all off---by coming home and lying about what she did the previous night----if she was so guilt ridden and remorseful----and wanted her mge---she would have "outed" herself---instead her H, had to find out from one of her friends
> 
> IMHO---this is just a very nasty type of adultery for the betrayed to have to deal with and overcome


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

I totslly agree. One can understand an emotional relationship impating someone. Does not make it right. But this type of adultery is so base. This was women on the prowl and who had been playing just the tip. They brought in the closer guy and she went for it. Did not care who new. 

Ok, this not in evidence, but for all the OP knows she had time to party with not only the young guy but also his running mate. If she did not remeber the sex she has no idea how many guys took a turn.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

stevekimsly said:


> She doesn't know why she did it. Thats what I can't figure out. Thats what she wont tell me and WHY is the question I most want to know.
> 
> Do you think it is a reasonable request to ask her to tell her family can come clean with mine?


The WHY is maybe not so complicated here.. Betrayed spouses on these forums are quite harsh and agressive on the WHY. I said more than once the division between BS and WS, wayward spouse, is not so black and white. It is not those who will and those who won't. It's often a matter of circumstances.

You will read many stories of WS's, especially wife's that were morally the Bank of England, and the next thing was they were found to have an affair. 

Sometimes it's a question of character, sometimes of circumstances. And a lot of the times a question of intoxication. All of the times a question of lose boundaries.

GNO and clubbing are notorious on this forum.

I think in this case the WHY is drinking, and fun, slipping into excitement, playing with danger and getting horny, the boose making that boundaries don't count so much anymore and persons have an entitlement to some fun. And Who cares anyway? The force of nature to procreate is strong and the mind is willing....Nobody will now.

A horrible mistake that becomes clear when the alcohol looses its illusionary effects.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Well, some other posters are going totally crazy on this one.

I think you need to start gathering the facts and work from there. Not these ridiculous attacking speculations. 

This case looks like a one time event, EXCEPT the GNO scene. You need to find out what happened at other times. And about the male-coworker and the guy she slept with. Wat were here relations with these two?

Was it a one time 'afterparty', or were there more?

You need to know, whether you leave her or reconcile, if you don't dig this out, it will haunt you.


----------



## JCD

golfergirl said:


> I have an allergy to something in rum and in Schloss Lauderheim. Something in those drinks cause me to black out on relatively small quantities. But I figured that out in my 20's. I didn't wake up at 5am fit to go home all was well either. I was good and zonked til past noon. As I said I have had those 2 black outs, but I was passed right out. My friends looked out for me during the rum incident and my H did during the wine incident. Steve, sorry you find yourself in this situation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well I get the allergy thing. A specific kind of beer gives me absolutely SPLITTING headaches...so I no longer touch it.

Which is why in the normal course of events, I look askance at her excuses, I am open to drugs, allergy and specific weaknesses to alcohol. Some people just can't handle drink very well.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

See_Listen_Love said:


> You need to know, whether you leave her or reconcile, if you don't dig this out, it will haunt you.


This is entirely dependent on the person. If this is his line in the sand it won't haunt him at all.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

jnj express said:


> As to R, or not-----once again---I think its the type of cheating that went on, that has some bearing
> 
> You might R, under lots of different circumstances----maybe problems in the mge lead to a situation that the cheater reaches out (never condoned but happens) to someone who shows them a shoulder to lean on---and they get led astray-----------long A's that are fueled by many things-----and there is always disrespect----but this kind of situation---where the wife just kept going to bars, with her female buddies---time and again---or even as this situation indicates---got set up with a hot younger fitter guy----how does the innocent, staying at home taking care of the kids, husband handle THAT
> 
> What does that make him think of himself-----he's got a wife that is out there getting herself set up with a younger guy----or conversely---she is out looking, finds a guy and spreads her legs---again---what can she actually be thinking of her H
> 
> In this instance---these 8 women moved around from place to place---they probably moved on when the prospects of fun at one place dried up---they moved to another place---and in this situation it was the last place they hit---where "bingo" at least for Steve's wife----4 of the 8 women---had enuff sense to go home, to whatever was at home waiting for them-----steve's wife---who had her OWN FLESH AND BLOOD CHILDREN AT HOME, ALONG WITH HER INNOCENT H, AT HOME TRUSTING HER, AND WAITING FOR HER----what does she do---she goes to another mans apt, and has foreplay and then spreads her legs for this younger studmuffin----and please stop with the BS---justification of alcohol and drug mix---SHE F'ing KNEW WHAT SHE WAS DOING AS SHE WENT THRU STOP SIGN AFTER STOP SIGN---topping it all off---by coming home and lying about what she did the previous night----if she was so guilt ridden and remorseful----and wanted her mge---she would have "outed" herself---instead her H, had to find out from one of her friends
> 
> *IMHO---this is just a very nasty type of adultery for the betrayed to have to deal with and overcome*


You are overreacting, make this into a witch hunt. This type of adultery is in contrary the most innocent, if you could weigh this by the way. But since you call this 'very nasty', I have to say, it's just not. See all the other threads on this forum, if it is a one time mistake, that is experienced a lot different from year long affairs, from EA's where the BS can't be sure anymore where he stands in the picture, from PA's where the BS can't be sure how he is measured on the physical part, where he can't be sure an EA or PA will not happen again seen the nature of the EA/PA. Etc. Etc.

If this is a one time event, IF, then it is the type that most BS will be able to come over easier than many other types.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

See_Listen_Love said:


> You are overreacting, make this into a witch hunt.


Overreacting? Maybe. A witch hunt? Nope. I think that means something different to you.


----------



## Dyokemm

See Listen Love,

If your point is that there does not need to be dramatic speculation as to the course of events that night, I can agree with that. Its enough to simply stick to the facts and not dig into sinister motivations that there are no way of verifying.

But if your point is really that this is just a 'run of the mill' situation' and not an exceptional betrayal, I disagree for the following reason.

She openly and brazenly did this in front of the peers in her husband's life. This betrayal could only be topped if she had done it in front of his family. This is near the top in humiliation and disrespect. 

That is what makes it so heinous.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

I just say I have read much and much worse on this forum. Go see for yourself.

And here we have not enough info about what exactly happened. I normally like to analyze things with an open eye for all kinds of possibilities seen the nature of trickle truth etc., but here there is not yet enough known.


----------



## Dyokemm

SLL,

It's OK. We e just have a difference of opinion and viewpoint on this issue.

I agree with you about the horror stories here...too many of them and with some truly awful circumstances.

Personally though, I just think the public humiliation of a spouse takes the cake for insult and disrespect.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

See_Listen_Love said:


> I just say I have read much and much worse on this forum. Go see for yourself.


 Each situation is different. Worse is relative to a person's own moral compass. 
Some people can handle ten affair partners and reconcile.
Some can't handle an EA. 

R or D is a personal matter, it is subject to the person's own wants and desires.



> And here we have not enough info about what exactly happened. I normally like to analyze things with an open eye for all kinds of possibilities seen the nature of trickle truth etc., but here there is not yet enough known.


Yes we do, she cheated.
He has enough, as of right now, to file for divorce if he wants. What we all want, even for analysis or voyeurism, is irrelevant.


----------



## Dyokemm

Oh, and I agree with you that haphazard and dramatic speculation on the feelings and motivations of all the parties involved is not productive to analyzing the known facts because it stirs up powerful emotional thinking that clouds judgement.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Dyokemm said:


> Oh, and I agree with you that haphazard and dramatic speculation on the feelings and motivations of all the parties involved is not productive to analyzing the known facts because it stirs up powerful emotional thinking that clouds judgement.


Oh I agree, but that includes both sides. Right now we have gross generalization, gross minimization and speculation from both sides of the argument. The board would have three posts if people didn't debate both sides of an issue.


----------



## JCD

Here is what we know:

She went out drinking with FEMALE friends.

During the course of the evening, 4 left to go home, 4 went looking to continue a fun evening. Much was drunk.

SOMEHOW, she wound up at a MANS apartment.

She had sex with at least one of the men there.

She fell asleep or passed out. (I HAVE passed out from too much drinking but I was conscious the whole time until I fell alseep)

At 5 am, she texted that she was AT THIS MANS HOUSE and was drunk and she was coming home.

She didn't reveal anything immediately.

When her so called sultry friend got a look at his angry face, she immediately broke down crying and revealed the whole mess.

We do NOT know if the wife was planning on confessing. IF this was a one time thing (and from all the facts we see, this WAS a one time thing...or she is running around with the WORST co-conspirators in creation!) she came from an emotionally traumatic event (an affair) which strikes at her very self image. She went from wonderful housewife and mother to cheating slvt all in three Jack Daniels... She was probably on the fence on how to address the matter, praying she could tough it out, he would buy her story and could swear to herself she would NEVER EVER do anything like that again (it's the human instinct) BUT she might also have been guilty enough to reveal everything later that day. It's happened before on TAM. We don't KNOW!

So stop imagining this was MULTIPLE affairs. He has not stated that she frequently comes home at 2 am or I am missing something.

The facts suggest he has a very crappy situation to deal with, not a full blown sh*tty one.


----------



## Entropy3000

You make some decent points. BUT, I still think there is much that is not known. An innocent wife ending up at a man's house until 5am when she started out with a group of females? This boggles the mind.


----------



## Dyokemm

Entropy,

I agree with you. Wild speculation is counterproductive to helping OP find a clear path forward.

Personally, I think the fact that it was openly done in front of his work peers/friends is the worst aspect of the situation.

What disturbs me the most from her reaction, as I posted earlier, is the OP's statement that she claims she 'deserves' a second chance, as if it is something she has earned.

In my opinion, no one 'deserves' second chances. They are freely given by the wounded party in spite of the fact they are truly undeserved.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yes we do, she cheated.
> He has enough, as of right now, to file for divorce if he wants. *What we all want, *even for analysis or voyeurism,* is irrelevant*.


I disagree on this, if you post, you have a certain responsibility for your advise, especially if one ads suspicions to the mix that are unfounded.

So I can want more info to show some people give the wrong advice, in this case as to the possible defense of the WS if it only is a one time event. Or to the defense of the BS, if it would turn out to be a serial thing.


----------



## Dyokemm

Philly,

Believe me, I am in no way minimizing the situation. I think it is one of the worst betrayals possible just on the KNOWN facts.

Personally, I could never forgive such an act, in particular from a woman who claimed she 'deserves' another chance.

But ultimately, that decision is the OPs to make.


----------



## LongWalk

nuclearnightmare said:


> SteveK: you said earlier in a post that:
> 
> "I need to get in better shape (she has never complained or even mentioned this) but the guy she slept with was young and in shape. I feel I need to finish my degree. I feel I need to become "better" than she is to move forward so I feel like either A) She will "want" me and this wont happen again or B) If it happens again I will still be marketable in my late 30."
> 
> here's how I would change that --
> "I need to get in better shape, and I feel I need to finish my degree. I feel I need to become "better" to move forward so I feel like I will still be marketable in my late 30."
> 
> If you feel that some self improvement is in order then by all means get after it. with a bit of that, and being in your late 30s as you say, I'd say you stand about a 100% chance of finding someone better than her. As others have said she's now demonstrated to you that you married "down" - not "up." Leave her and you won't end up teaching your children (through your actions) that one must accept a certain amount of humiliation in marriage - perhaps even a significant amount - to "keep a family together."


:iagree:

I asked OP earlier how many credits remain to completion of his degree.


----------



## NewM

stevekimsly said:


> She doesn't know why she did it. Thats what I can't figure out. Thats what she wont tell me and WHY is the question I most want to know.
> 
> Do you think it is a reasonable request to ask her to tell her family can come clean with mine?


Well she has to answer that question,the only questions she answered are already the ones you could get answers from coworkers and people who were there.Don't even think of moving on until she finds out why she did it and tells you,if you do then that is just rug sweeping.

I think it is reasonable to request her to come clean to your families.


----------



## Suspecting

The only right answer to that question is she wanted to do it.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

JCD said:


> So stop imagining this was MULTIPLE affairs. He has not stated that she frequently comes home at 2 am or I am missing something.
> 
> The facts suggest he has a very crappy situation to deal with, not a full blown sh*tty one.


Like I said people over generalize, like saying multiple affairs.
Then people minimize by saying it isn't full blown. 

None of us can define which is what for another person. That goes for either side of the equation whether it is an EA or 100 guys or gals.


See_Listen_Love said:


> I disagree on this, if you post, you have a certain responsibility for your advise, especially if one ads suspicions to the mix that are unfounded.
> 
> .


I say minimizing is just as dangerous as adding suspicions. You have a responsibility to give the cold hard truth. Now, both sides can be tactful, but that rarely happens.



> So I can want more info to show some people give the wrong advice, in this case as to the possible defense of the WS if it only is a one time event. Or to the defense of the BS, if it would turn out to be a serial thing.


I have never suggested it was serial. If you want more facts and he doesn't, you are out of luck. You can still defend her and I never said you shouldn't.


----------



## TRy

See_Listen_Love said:


> You are overreacting, make this into a witch hunt. This type of adultery is in contrary the most innocent, if you could weigh this by the way. But since you call this 'very nasty', I have to say, it's just not. See all the other threads on this forum, if it is a one time mistake, that is experienced a lot different from year long affairs, from EA's where the BS can't be sure anymore where he stands in the picture, from PA's where the BS can't be sure how he is measured on the physical part, where he can't be sure an EA or PA will not happen again seen the nature of the EA/PA. Etc. Etc.
> 
> If this is a one time event, IF, then it is the type that most BS will be able to come over easier than many other types.


 What you seem to be forgetting is that she cheated on her husband in front of her husband's friends and co-workers. This makes it the most humiliating and horrible affair possible for the husband as he must look other people in the eye everyday wondering what they are thinking of him as a man. Whereas most husbands are respected when they compliment their wives to their friends and co-workers, he will be wondering what they will be thinking if he does. Bottom line, fair or not, many of these friends and co-workers will think less of him as a man if he stays with her. She knew that they all knew and just hoped that they would keep her secret. At best, she did not care how much this would belittle him to his friends, co-workers, and yes his enemies. At worst, she enjoyed humiliating him.

For me, even if it was only this one time, since she denied me the respect of even trying to keep it discrete, I would consider this the worst possible type of betrayal, and doubt that I could ever get over it.


----------



## jnj express

For those still discussing, and this is not a threadjack---just staying on the subject of how hurtful affair conduct is----

Where do you place a wife/husband---openly passionately kissing another at a party or event where the other wife/husband is there with them----probably sneaking off to another room---or sneaking outside, or down the hallway----it is not full blown finishing sex---but is it not just as bad/humiliating/disrespectful---how does a betrayed spouse handle that------isn't it in all reality, just as bad as the full blown finishing act of penetration-----or do some of you find a major difference


----------



## Dyokemm

JNJ,

I agree that such a situation is essentially the same in kind. 

The only possible minimizing impact mere kissing would have over actual oral or penetrative acts would probably be entirely in the mental perception of those present.

Most people would probably not rate this situation as bad as a sexual encounter in their own rationalizing of the events. Therefore, their perception of the entailing humiliation/disrespect would be less.

Logically, the physical aspect of the situation really has no bearing on the actual betrayal/humiliation, but that is not how most would perceive it.

Most would say its not as bad. 

I would disagree though.


----------



## JCD

Excuse me, PRACTICALLY there is no difference between willfully cheating in front of her husband's co-workers and happening to be in front of his co-workers when she fell of the fidelity wagon.

However, there is a difference in intent.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

JCD said:


> Excuse me, PRACTICALLY there is no difference between willfully cheating in front of her husband's co-workers and happening to be in front of his co-workers when she fell of the fidelity wagon.
> 
> However, there is a difference in intent.


In your opinion.
Yes a difference in semantics. You know similar to your semantic argument of 


> "crappy situation to deal with, not a full blown sh*tty one."


 You are now arguing semantic degrees of fidelity. You, plus others, want to minimize and others want to maximize, but you all are telling each other to basically shut up.

It's sad. I'm done stinking up his thread.

Good luck Steve, take a deep breath, evaluate all of your options and then make an informed decision.


----------



## JCD

So...a drunken wife on meds who screws a stranger one time is the equivilent of a wife who is 'in love' with her VP' for months and ALSO does ONS? Is that what you are saying? A wife who is crying her eyes out and doing everything to make things up is the same as a woman who runs off 200 miles away to live with the OM and abandons her kids is the same?

Cause that isn't semantics: that is real demonstrable differences in infidelity. All that is similar is the fvcking.

Those screaming about how deep the hole is are offering nothing to substantiate their views except cliches of 'trickle truth' etc.

Well...I DO think she is trickle truthing him. I think she knows his name and I think he didn't use a condom. I think she is minimizing BOTH those things so he can both get over things faster and not run off and murder this SOB. I think that her intent was to have some flirty fun but things got away. She thought she was being OH SO CLEVER and had EVERYTHING UNDER CONTROL...until she had a penis inside of her.

BUT...I suppose it's possible that every GNO, she was screwing men senseless and that her 'friends' always were able to seamlessly and guiltlessly cover for her...until this time.

Sure...that makes sense.


----------



## Brokenshadow

jnj express said:


> For those still discussing, and this is not a threadjack---just staying on the subject of how hurtful affair conduct is----
> 
> Where do you place a wife/husband---openly passionately kissing another at a party or event where the other wife/husband is there with them----probably sneaking off to another room---or sneaking outside, or down the hallway----it is not full blown finishing sex---but is it not just as bad/humiliating/disrespectful---how does a betrayed spouse handle that------isn't it in all reality, just as bad as the full blown finishing act of penetration-----or do some of you find a major difference


My situation isn't the same, but it escalated in the way you described. When I first discovered incriminating texts in my wife's phone, it was the OM saying he enjoyed their kiss. I wish now that I had read more texts, but just that discovery was blindingly painful. When she TT'd me about how far the affair went, I felt that it was bad but not a catastrophe. I later discovered that they had been intimate. That discovery was much worse. Before I had proof, I had my suspicions but the pain was watered down by her denials. Once I knew the truth, the pain was raw, and deep. The mind movies are terrible, because now I know the things I'm imagining are entirely possible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## dogman

I want to address the title of this thread for the OP.

Her only mistake in 15 years?

Well....maybe.....but, lets compare this to other crimes, and lets be clear in my mind this is a crime. We make vows before God and family. We swear upon all that is important to us that we will FORSAKE ALL OHTERS.
Ok, sorry judge I'm 40 years old and this is the only time I killed someone, my bad. Or, sorry, madam, I didn't mean to paralize you when I ran you over, you see I took medication and had a few beers and if I don't remember it, it doesn't count....right?

Lets treat this with the importance it actually carries. THIS IS ONE OF THOSE THINGS WE DON'T OR CAN'T UNDO. can we be forgiven...yes. Does it matter that we never did it before , NO.

So to the OPs title, who cares if you managed to not fall down drunk and let someone do whatever they want to you for 15 years. The fact that you could do it after 15 years is actually worse.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: She Keeps saying it was on mistake in 15 years*



JCD said:


> Here is what we know:
> 
> She went out drinking with FEMALE friends.
> 
> During the course of the evening, 4 left to go home, 4 went looking to continue a fun evening. Much was drunk.
> 
> SOMEHOW, she wound up at a MANS apartment.
> 
> She had sex with at least one of the men there.
> 
> She fell asleep or passed out. (I HAVE passed out from too much drinking but I was conscious the whole time until I fell alseep)
> 
> At 5 am, she texted that she was AT THIS MANS HOUSE and was drunk and she was coming home.
> 
> She didn't reveal anything immediately.
> 
> When her so called sultry friend got a look at his angry face, she immediately broke down crying and revealed the whole mess.
> 
> We do NOT know if the wife was planning on confessing. IF this was a one time thing (and from all the facts we see, this WAS a one time thing...or she is running around with the WORST co-conspirators in creation!) she came from an emotionally traumatic event (an affair) which strikes at her very self image. She went from wonderful housewife and mother to cheating slvt all in three Jack Daniels... She was probably on the fence on how to address the matter, praying she could tough it out, he would buy her story and could swear to herself she would NEVER EVER do anything like that again (it's the human instinct) BUT she might also have been guilty enough to reveal everything later that day. It's happened before on TAM. We don't KNOW!
> 
> So stop imagining this was MULTIPLE affairs. He has not stated that she frequently comes home at 2 am or I am missing something.
> 
> The facts suggest he has a very crappy situation to deal with, not a full blown sh*tty one.


Totally agree. There is too much speculation going on here. I believe Steve's wife has already agreed to a polygraph correct? Most of this can be settled in that way. I think calling for divorce at this juncture is complete overkill. If he files for divorce now she might just fold like a card table and sink into a dark hole. If this is a one night stand or a girls night out gone bad it would truly be a shame to destroy a family unnecessarily.


----------



## golfergirl

bfree said:


> Totally agree. There is too much speculation going on here. I believe Steve's wife has already agreed to a polygraph correct? Most of this can be settled in that way. I think calling for divorce at this juncture is complete overkill. If he files for divorce now she might just fold like a card table and sink into a dark hole. If this is a one night stand or a girls night out gone bad it would truly be a shame to destroy a family unnecessarily.


She destroyed it when she cheated not OP for not tolerating it. He told her that cheating was a deal breaker. She acted knowing that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrK

JCD said:


> or she is running around with the WORST co-conspirators in creation!)


I can end that speculation. That would be my wife's former toxic married (now divorced) friend she used to run wing for. And even she's not THAT bad that she _travels_ to ruin marriages.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: She Keeps saying it was on mistake in 15 years*



golfergirl said:


> She destroyed it when she cheated not OP for not tolerating it. He told her that cheating was a deal breaker. She acted knowing that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I understand what you're saying but dealbreaker is a word used many times until one finds themselves in just that situation. I would suggest that the fact that Steve is here would imply that he is looking for advice on how to handle this. Otherwise he would have been at his lawyer's office and not posting on TAM. Many couples reconcile even when infidelity was a supposed dealbreaker. All I'm saying is to curb the wild speculation, let the facts come out and let Steve decide if this is truly a dealbreaker or not. This is not some theoretical problem to solve. This is a family, these are real people. Why the rush to judgement?


----------



## MrK

Steve. If you're not a troll (I'm having trouble with going from 0-"I filed for divorce" in 6 hours), please come back after all of the dust settles and give us a write-up of the results. There is still a lot of "let her go out and party, man. You're not her dad" attitudes out there. A few were actually brave enough to lift their heads in this firefight. If she's honest, you are going to hear of a lot of behavior in the GNO's leading up to this one that led to her eventual "mistake". 

I knew what my wife was up to so many years ago when she "went out dancing" with her former toxic friend. I cannot for the life of me understand why that much younger MrK allowed it to happen, except for the fear of being considered paranoid and controlling. Then there are people like you, who seem genuinly in denial about how your wife acted with these toxic friends. Both types of men need to know it is OK to, at a MINIMUM, closely monitor their wives behavior at meat markets.

Good luck with whatever happens.


----------



## golfergirl

bfree said:


> I understand what you're saying but dealbreaker is a word used many times until one finds themselves in just that situation. I would suggest that the fact that Steve is here would imply that he is looking for advice on how to handle this. Otherwise he would have been at his lawyer's office and not posting on TAM. Many couples reconcile even when infidelity was a supposed dealbreaker. All I'm saying is to curb the wild speculation, let the facts come out and let Steve decide if this is truly a dealbreaker or not. This is not some theoretical problem to solve. This is a family, these are real people. Why the rush to judgement?


This didn't happen yesterday - it happened 2 months ago. I don't hunk this was a hasty decision. She is 'saying' the right things but not a lot of action on her part. My H says cheating is a deal breaker. I love him enough to not test if he's just saying it or if he means it.  What I get from people pushing for D on this thread is to file for it because he can't go on this way. Either she truly gets it and he cancels or she continues to hold no personal responsibility for her action.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## stevekimsly

Again I appreciate the comments even the harsh ones that suspect my wife of being a serial cheater. It makes me take a good look at the last 15 years.

Going from R to D in 6 hours isn't exactly how it was. My initial reaction two months ago was D. I talked to my dad and some other people who I feel are wise. They all know my wife very well and all though it was completely out of character. They also all though I should give her a chance. I was basically in a fog for two months until I read through these forums and got a wakeup call, then posting here opened my eyes even more. I was able to file a petition online and get it started. She does need to know that this is real, and she does need to face consequences. I am ready to continue with the D if she doesn't act. I did tell her she needed to do the basic things I asked (STD test, personal counseling, MC, no GNO, no drinking, etc.) and gave her a deadlines.

I am attempting the 180 and can follow most of the "rules" the hard part is that we have been separated from family for about 11 years and have done everything on our own... We are not only spouses but we really were best friends. We still are doing stuff together, working out, travelling, it's easier to forget when we are doing fun stuff, but that isn't helping the process much (I guess that what you call rug sweeping, but it's still fun to go to Hawaii, Spain, Italy).

I still believe this to be a one-time occurrence fueled by anti-anxiety medication and alcohol. I also believe that she did go out with intent to get attention, to feel younger, whatever, and it went too far... WHY, I still want to know but? ... bottom line is it happened. I will eventually forgive but I won't forget.

The story of that night seem to get a bit twisted in the last 18 pages or I did not convey the facts as I know them well.

She went out with my female co-workers, yes I knew where they were going. They went out roughly once every other month as did I, living away from family its hard to find a sitter for 3 kids so we went out separate sometimes, mistake). Via the my co-workers that are not on speaking terms with my wife said that nothing like this had happened before. I trust them, they told they husbands that morning and two of their husbands tried to contact me, and all of them said what she did was not right and don’t want anything to do with my wife... too bad they didn’t step in to help or call me.

I woke up to her texting (Sunday morning) me telling me she was getting a cab home. She was weird that day and stayed in bed (hung over and probably not knowing what the **** to do). I told her I was upset with her actions but really didn’t talk to her much that day, I was taking care of the kids. Monday when I went to work that's when I confronted my co-worker and she cried and apologized for not being a better friend and making sure she got home ok. This was atypical of this girl so I knew something was up. Two hours later I confronted my wife, and she told me everything, I hope (there will always be doubt).

She "clubbed", drank, she took anti-anxiety medication (normal for her to take, not normal to mix). At the last bar they ran into a male co-worker of mine and two of his friends. She says she was drunk by then and one of the friends helped her back to the co-workers house with the rest of the group people. Im guessing this was about 2-3am. She went outside to the deck at some point and the guy followed her and from there it just escalated. She doesn't remember going to where the copulated but she remembers the act and consent. She passed out for an hour or two? and when woke up somewhat more sober realized what she had done, texted me that she was coming home. She doesn't remember much of what they talked about, just that it happened.

Bottom line for me: It happened, and I don't believe she did it out of ill will or to humiliate me. I have known her for many years and this was 100% out of character. That being said, she did betray me and humiliate me. I have and will continue to take action to show that this was not right and there are consequences to actions.

On a side not my first child was born when I was 17 with another women. I met my wife 1 year later. She has been a great mother to my oldest and the our three. My oldest daughter was a consequence of my action. It was tough, but I have a wonderful intelligent daughter that I would not trade for the world. Good things can come out of bad situations. I will ensure good comes out of this situation weather it's with our without my wife.


----------



## MrK

If I were a mod, I'd close this thread after that post and tell us all to move on, nothing more to see here.

Good luck Steve.


----------



## Hicks

There is a good chance this was an out of character drunken thing. There is also the chance of other scenarios.

That's why you and your wife have to follow a plan and a process... Understanding what you are forgiving and understanding who your wife is is critical to a recovery... Having her demonstrate her committment and remorse through she herself having to do distasteful or difficult actions... All of this is essential to a recovery of your marriage.


----------



## Entropy3000

JCD said:


> So...a drunken wife on meds who screws a stranger one time is the equivilent of a wife who is 'in love' with her VP' for months and ALSO does ONS? Is that what you are saying? A wife who is crying her eyes out and doing everything to make things up is the same as a woman who runs off 200 miles away to live with the OM and abandons her kids is the same?
> 
> Cause that isn't semantics: that is real demonstrable differences in infidelity. All that is similar is the fvcking.
> 
> Those screaming about how deep the hole is are offering nothing to substantiate their views except cliches of 'trickle truth' etc.
> 
> Well...I DO think she is trickle truthing him. I think she knows his name and I think he didn't use a condom. I think she is minimizing BOTH those things so he can both get over things faster and not run off and murder this SOB. I think that her intent was to have some flirty fun but things got away. She thought she was being OH SO CLEVER and had EVERYTHING UNDER CONTROL...until she had a penis inside of her.
> 
> BUT...I suppose it's possible that every GNO, she was screwing men senseless and that her 'friends' always were able to seamlessly and guiltlessly cover for her...until this time.
> 
> Sure...that makes sense.


This just feels so setup. Yes stuff like this happens without conspiracy. But this smacks of resentment at work.


----------



## Entropy3000

> She says she was drunk by then and one of the friends helped her back to the co-workers house with the rest of the group people.


Which friend? A male or female friend. This is hard to fathom that a female friend would do this. That the female friend did not call you to come pick her up and take her safely home.

If it was a male friend this to me was essentially rape. Legally? No. Also she may have been drugged.
The male co-worker should have called the husband.

What was the lead up to this? What were her interactions with the young guy BEFORE she left for the man's house? IF there was just mild flirting, then I say she was complete prey and not only do not one help her but she was isolated so she could be taken.

Instigation, Isolation and Escalation. I think it matters just how much of this was her idea. 

I see now why the OP was asked not to kill his male co-worker.


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## bryanp

In 2 months she has still not taken an STD test? What does that tell you?


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

bryanp said:


> In 2 months she has still not taken an STD test? What does that tell you?


Or a polygraph...


----------



## jnj express

The real why you need to ask is----since your wife was pretty drunk, but not completely out of it---is---why didn't your wife, tell her friends to put her in a cab and send her home, and call you, to tell you she was coming home, and to watch for her---that is what should have been done----and your wife as long as she was functioning at all, should have demanded that outcome

Going to a mans apt. not the right thing to do---but again if your wife was there, and she did not function very well, another why---why did her friends not have her back, and allow this guy a complete stranger, to go anywhere near her

Then what you said that actually happened---your wife allowed it to happen-----That why must be addressed, for you to be able to heal

You got 3 why's that have to be answered, before, you will even start to heal

Do not let her friends slide on this---cuz they may be the real key to what really went on that evening---and they can prove whether your wife is telling the truth, or there was a conspiracy going on to set your wife up, with this guy

Thing that should really bother you, is this all happened with a complete stranger---he may have been a friend of your co-worker, but he was a stranger to your wife---could have been a druggie, have an STD, been a crazy, who knows, yet he was allowed to pursue your wife, and no one including your wife stopped that pursuit

The real killer for you to deal with--is that your wife knew what she was doing---in that she asked him to put on the Condom-----------if she was out of it, or fighting this---she would not have asked him to use the condom---so you have to know, she went along with having sex with this guy

It is these things that are gonna keep your sub--conscious in full blasting mode---it is these things, that your sub--conscious is never gonna let you forget----

Now that it is somewhat out in the open, cept for the 3 why's----------it now becomes on you, as to how your future goes----you accept what was done, live with the hurt and pain, or move on

I am not sure counseling is even needed, unless those 3 why's can't be addressed--------this really becomes your problem, and your future, depends on how much you are willing to stand in the way of pain and hurt

You say your wife is wonderful, and doing most everything right, cept for the things you have requested she do---that she has not done----but the problem here is gonna be within yourself----all the sorries in the world, all the holding you, kissing you, sex with you, being wonderful to you---won't erase, what your sub--conscious is gonna throw at you--time and again---for a very long time

Hopefully if you both do R, this situation---there will never be another GNO---that goes in harms way---and that the alcohol will stop flowing, no matter what the situation----in your household------cuz bottom line those are the 2 villins in this story

Good luck to you, whichever way you go------


----------



## dogman

MrK said:


> If I were a mod, I'd close this thread after that post and tell us all to move on, nothing more to see here.
> 
> Good luck Steve.


I totally disagree with this.

Steve is here for advice. His situation is far from done. She won't even admit to why this happened.nshe has selective memory loss. She remembers asking him to put on a rubber but forgets how this escalated to the bedroom and sex. 

He will never heal without the exact truth and the painful "why" answered. 

So we are all the little voices in his head saying "don't rug sweep this"

Closing this thread will kill good advice that he needs.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

What are the chances the friend was actually the male co-worker? And that's why she won't reveal his name?


----------



## LostViking

bfree said:


> Totally agree. There is too much speculation going on here. I believe Steve's wife has already agreed to a polygraph correct? Most of this can be settled in that way. I think calling for divorce at this juncture is complete overkill. If he files for divorce now she might just fold like a card table and sink into a dark hole. If this is a one night stand or a girls night out gone bad it would truly be a shame to destroy a family unnecessarily.


She destroyed the family. Not him. 

He has every moral and legal right to divorce her if he chooses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

steve, now I know you are taking this step with a clear mind. It's obvious you want to give the marriage a good shot and thet needs to be done by putting the ball in her court.
Crossing my fingers so she wakes up and start putting into actions her promises.
Good luck.


----------



## MrK

dogman said:


> Closing this thread will kill good advice that he needs.


At the risk of switching this thing of on another tangent:

Don't you think he's gotten the point after 18 pages?

:scratchhead:


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Good luck, do what is best for you and your family.


----------



## walkonmars

The petition for D should be prefaced with the statement that you've waited long enough for the simple things you asked for and she agreed on. Tell her it's hard enough working with people that give you looks of pity from time to time and some that may even crack wise behind your back. 

If she can't even see her way to allay your spirit with a poly and a clean bill of health then there is no point to continue. 

She'll either confess to what really happened, if anything did, or show you she was being truthful. Be a pillar for your kids.


----------



## just got it 55

bfree said:


> Totally agree. There is too much speculation going on here. I believe Steve's wife has already agreed to a polygraph correct? Most of this can be settled in that way. I think calling for divorce at this juncture is complete overkill. If he files for divorce now she might just fold like a card table and sink into a dark hole. If this is a one night stand or a girls night out gone bad it would truly be a shame to destroy a family unnecessarily.


Yup I see it get steamrolled all the time


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## Almostrecovered

bfree said:


> Totally agree. There is too much speculation going on here. I believe Steve's wife has already agreed to a polygraph correct? Most of this can be settled in that way. I think calling for divorce at this juncture is complete overkill. If he files for divorce now she might just fold like a card table and sink into a dark hole. If this is a one night stand or a girls night out gone bad it would truly be a shame to destroy a family unnecessarily.



I think the point you're missing here bfree is that steve isn't filing over the affair at this point but rather the half-effort being made on behalf of his wife to help him heal from it. According to OP she promised several things like an STD test but did not follow through with it (aka rugsweeping). Filing for D now has put a timetable on her to keep her promises or fail to do the things she needs to in order to have a proper R.


----------



## dusty4

Entropy3000 said:


> You make some decent points. BUT, I still think there is much that is not known. An innocent wife ending up at a man's house until 5am when she started out with a group of females? This boggles the mind.


I'd say if she wants to keep her marriage, her partying days are over, and any friends that were part of this type of partying shouldn't be her husband's problem. They are gone.


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## Summer4744

Steve. Have you told your wife yet about the D? Have you brought up the possibility of a D in the past?

How do you think she will react?


----------



## dusty4

Some are focusing on the fact that she remembers everything except the sex, but knows she had sex.

Ok. lets say she did pass out and barely remembers the sex. There was a point where she remembered, and she should have realized that going to another man's place after a night of partying isn't a good idea, much less respectful of her husband, and the whole situation is one unbecoming of a married individual. 

Either be single if you are going act single, or be a spouse that doesn't act like a college sophomore out to see what can happen when partying with their friends and other guys.


----------



## dogman

MrK said:


> At the risk of switching this thing of on another tangent:
> 
> Don't you think he's gotten the point after 18 pages?
> 
> :scratchhead:


This is a constantly changing landscape during the next 6 months. There will be lots more things he will need an objective opinion about.
But I do understand where you're coming from. I just think its not quite time to fly own his own.

Most of us here, including yourself (i assume) are not here to see the train wreck, we're here to see that he doesn't make the mistakes that many of us have made before finding this forum.


----------



## Suspecting

According to the last update she passed out after having PIV with one of the dudes. If she's telling the truth she has no idea what happened after that. What about the other two guys? There was three of them according to the story (plus the girls?) "the group". They see a naked woman passed out there and what did they do? Possibly something that caused the co-worker to go on the run. 

This sounds more and more like a date rape to me. The correct action after that night would have been to contact the police and do a rape exam. If she's not lying.


----------



## Entropy3000

WorkingOnMe said:


> What are the chances the friend was actually the male co-worker? And that's why she won't reveal his name?


Whoa!!!

Very good. 

He needs more answer for his co-workers. They owe him.

Yes indeed how does ge know this guy will not come back?


----------



## dusty4

Suspecting said:


> This sounds more and more like a date rape to me. The correct action after that night would have been to contact the police and do a rape exam. If she's not lying.


You could be right.

Either way, she had no business going to another man's house after a night of partying.


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## Entropy3000

dusty4 said:


> I'd say if she wants to keep her marriage, her partying days are over, and any friends that were part of this type of partying shouldn't be her husband's problem. They are gone.


These friends are his coworkers. he needs more answers from them. THEY know things that he needs to know.


----------



## Entropy3000

Suspecting said:


> According to the last update she passed out after having PIV with one of the dudes. If she's telling the truth she has no idea what happened after that. What about the other two guys? There was three of them according to the story (plus the girls?) "the group". They see a naked woman passed out there and what did they do? Possibly something that caused the co-worker to go on the run.
> 
> This sounds more and more like a date rape to me. The correct action after that night would have been to contact the police and do a rape exam. If she's not lying.


I think this is some level of rape. I know I will get attacked for this. I think her being passed out with these guys who intended this to happen to begin with does suggest that this may have happened. But even if it did not she was brought to the house for sex.

This was the plan. It is why the men brought her to where they did. They took a woman and isolated her in a safe place where they could seduce her. She was prey.

I am NOT taking away her responsibility. But this was a form of rape IMO.

By what right did they have to take her to this house? How could those women leave her there? I keep coming back to that. I do not care if she was flirting and seemed to want it. They left a drunk female friend in a house of men. That is criminal.


----------



## Blue Firefly

Suspecting said:


> According to the last update she passed out after having PIV with one of the dudes. If she's telling the truth she has no idea what happened after that. What about the other two guys? There was three of them according to the story (plus the girls?) "the group". They see a naked woman passed out there and what did they do? Possibly something that caused the co-worker to go on the run.
> 
> This sounds more and more like a date rape to me. The correct action after that night would have been to contact the police and do a rape exam. If she's not lying.


At this point, his best option is to talk to the co-worker that originally broke down crying and see if they will reveal the rest of the story.

They at least seem to have a conscience. Get this person away from work and talk to them privately. Tell them the truth; that not knowing the full story is preventing you from reconciling with your wife.

The most powerful words in the world are: *please help me.* That's the words the OP should use with this person--please help me.


----------



## Blue Firefly

Entropy3000 said:


> I think this is some level of rape. I know I will get attacked for this. I think her being passed out with these guys who intended this to happen to begin with does suggest that this may have happened. But even if it did not she was brought to the house for sex.
> 
> This was the plan. It is why the men brought her to where they did. They took a woman and isolated her in a safe place where they could seduce her. She was prey.
> 
> I am NOT taking away her responsibility. But this was a form of rape IMO.


The OP may want to consider going to the police himself; explaining the situation; and demanding that the investigate it as a potential rape.

If nothing else, having it get around that the OP has reported it as a rape to the police may cause someone that was only tangentially involved to come clean (to save themselves from being drug in).


----------



## Suspecting

Blue Firefly said:


> The OP may want to consider going to the police himself; explaining the situation; and demanding that the investigate it as a potential rape.
> 
> If nothing else, having it get around that the OP has reported it as a rape to the police may cause someone that was only tangentially involved to come clean (to save themselves from being drug in).


I would totally file a report. The co-worker fleeing looks very suspicious. What do people guilty of a crime do? They flee and run. Mention this to the police. If nothing else but just to get back at the scumbags.


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## WorkingOnMe

I suspect the male co-worker did not have some mysterious friends who went back to the house. If he did, then the names could be obtained by asking him directly. He's a coworker after all. No I suspect it was sex with the male coworker and that's why the names are not forthcoming. She's afraid for the coworkers safety and job.


----------



## azteca1986

stevekimsly said:


> She doesn't remember going to where the copulated but *she remembers the act and consent.*


Some of you need to get a grip.


----------



## jnj express

She doesn't get a rape call here---SHE ASKED THE GUY TO PUT ON A CONDOM----is that the procedure when you are being raped---"come on people"


----------



## Entropy3000

azteca1986 said:


> Some of you need to get a grip.


I think people are misundertanding my point. I am not saying she was legally raped. 

But I do think she was prey. 

That said, I reiterate it is critical to get eye witness information as to whay they left her there.


----------



## MrK

She wasn't raped. There were some poor decisions made here, but 4 of his coworkers would NOT have allowed this to happen if rape was even a mild possibility.


----------



## Suspecting

azteca1986 said:


> Some of you need to get a grip.


But you left this one out:


stevekimsly said:


> She "clubbed", *drank*, *she took anti-anxiety medication* (normal for her to take, not normal to mix). At the last bar they ran into *a male co-worker of mine and two of his friends*. *She says she was drunk* by then and one of the friends *helped her* back to the co-workers house with the rest of the group people. Im guessing this was about 2-3am. She went outside to the deck at some point and the guy followed her and from there it just escalated. She doesn't remember going to where the copulated but she remembers the act and consent. *She passed out for an hour or two*? and when woke up somewhat more sober realized what she had done, texted me that she was coming home. *She doesn't remember much* of what they talked about, just that it happened.


She was not drunk, she was on drugs. I'm not trying to take blame off her. But like someone mentioned, it seems like a GNO gone bad for her. It seems from the OP's last post that his wife was A) too drunk to walk herself (needed help from others), B) passed out for a few hours (no memory of that time) and C) doesn't remember much of the events other than the intercourse. I think stevekimsly needs outside help to get to the bottom of this. Pressure the friends and mention filing a police report plus a lie detector test.

And seriously what kind of ethics that guy had having sex with a woman who can't even walk herself? I think stevekimsly can forget acting ethically towards these scum.


----------



## MrK

Suspecting said:


> C) doesn't remember much of the events...


And let's not forget "I don't remember" has it's very own chapter in the cheaters handbook.


----------



## healing and restoration

i feel you need to take the matter somewhere completely different. look at it from a different viewpoint. instead of looking and focussing on your wife and what she did wrong, you need to search for answers elsewhere.


----------



## azteca1986

Suspecting said:


> And seriously what kind of ethics that guy had having sex with a woman who can't even walk herself? I think stevekimsly can forget acting ethically towards these scum.


I don't think we need to think too deeply into the ethics of somebody who would sleep with another man's wife. He's a scumbag.

She says she gave her consent. Therefore it's not rape. Let's not confuse the issue further. 

@ Entrophy3000 - I'm sure she had impaired judgement. But... she was in the condition and the location she was in by her own actions.

The best eye-witness to the events is Steve's WW. Let's help him convince her that he needs the answers he needs from her, as we would expect from any other WW. She needs to answer the "Why?" question.


----------



## Rollin

Whats her reaction to the divorce?


----------



## azteca1986

healing and restoration said:


> i feel you need to take the matter somewhere completely different. look at it from a different viewpoint. instead of looking and focussing on your wife and what she did wrong, *you need to search for answers elsewhere.*


Where do you suggest?


----------



## Entropy3000

azteca1986 said:


> I don't think we need to think too deeply into the ethics of somebody who would sleep with another man's wife. He's a scumbag.
> 
> She says she gave her consent. Therefore it's not rape. Let's not confuse the issue further.
> 
> @ Entrophy3000 - I'm sure she had impaired judgement. But... she was in the condition and the location she was in by her own actions.
> 
> The best eye-witness to the events is Steve's WW. Let's help him convince her that he needs the answers he needs from her, as we would expect from any other WW. She needs to answer the "Why?" question.


I am saying that she was taken advantage of. She may have been willing prey but she was prey. They did not have to oblige. They wanted this. This is why they picked the women up. They brought her home to screw. They knew she was drunk. She may have even told them she took the drugs. But do not rule out that someone may have added to that mix. Once a woman lets down her guard past a certain point she may or may not be able to pull back at the last moment. Not if someone added more drugs. Not there is no evidence of that but her being taken back to the man' house, left by the women with three men, she had sex with at least one and supposedly passed out. She was drinking what the three men gave her. She was in and out of consciouness during sex. She probably has no idea whether she was havig sex with one guy or all of them.

I am NOT letting her off the hook.

But they did not make sure she got home. What was importnt to them was to get a piece. To take another man's wife. Half the kick here was the rush of doing exactly this.

But I repeat he needs more information the coworkers do have.

I see these people just like I do looters.

So the coworkers can jst tell him sorry. She wanted it so we let the guy(s) bang her. Yeah she was real drunk. And calling you was just too much of a hassle.

The coworkers have a great deal of information he needs.


----------



## weightlifter

Agree with some above. Why did this turn from a GNO into a gangbang?

FWIW I have twice been able to ask the question about what women were thinking during that last time right before the first (only?) penetration of the first (only?) affair. 

Neither could remember their thoughts right before giving themselves fully to another man.


----------



## Suspecting

azteca1986 said:


> I don't think we need to think too deeply into the ethics of somebody who would sleep with another man's wife. He's a scumbag.
> 
> She says she gave her consent. Therefore it's not rape. Let's not confuse the issue further.
> 
> @ Entrophy3000 - I'm sure she had impaired judgement. But... she was in the condition and the location she was in by her own actions.
> 
> The best eye-witness to the events is Steve's WW. Let's help him convince her that he needs the answers he needs from her, as we would expect from any other WW. She needs to answer the "Why?" question.


So you would be comfortable sleeping with a woman who is so drugged that she needs help walking? Comfortable enough to trust their judgement in that condition? 

_"the location she was in by her own actions"_ actually the OP said she got "helped" there because she was so drunk (on drugs). What does that mean? Did they carry her there?

It is my *opinion * that something shady has occured to cause the co-worker to flee from the scene. Anyway we are arguing for nothing since the OP is divorcing his wife. The details and what and why don't matter.


----------



## azteca1986

@ Entrophy3000. I also agree with some of the above. I'm not too convinced there was more than one OM. Yes, the co-workers can help fill in some of the events of the evening. Ideally, they'll answer to some "Why?" questions too.

ETA:



Suspecting said:


> *So you would be comfortable sleeping with a woman who is so drugged that she needs help walking? *Comfortable enough to trust their judgement in that condition?


No. Wherever did you get that idea? 



> _"the location she was in by her own actions"_ actually the OP said she got "helped" there because she was so drunk (on drugs). What does that mean? Did they carry her there?


She could have called a cab/been put in a cab. Sadly, the night was still young. She remembers the act and giving consent. She wasn't incapacitated.



> It is my *opinion * that something shady has occured to cause the co-worker to flee from the scene. Anyway we are arguing for nothing since the OP is divorcing his wife. The details and what and why don't matter.


He's _started_ divorce proceedings. She still has time to come up with some actions (that she promised) and the answers to his questions.


----------



## ThePheonix

MrK said:


> She wasn't raped. There were some poor decisions made here, but 4 of his coworkers would NOT have allowed this to happen if rape was even a mild possibility.


I agree K. There never was a situation where I would have allowed a co worker, co-worker's wife, wife of a friend, or any woman to be abused in this manner. If true, this gives new meaning to the phrase," with friends like that, you don't need enemies". Additionally, if this is true, Steve and his wife have a standing to press for both criminal and civil actions against this guy(s) and the tenant/property owner. If I were practicing these days, I would love to take this on.
Steve, you really, really need to pursue this. Worse case is you get the truth from the co workers via deposition. They're not going to lie and cover up while under oath.


----------



## Suspecting

I would try trickle truth the female co-worker into admitting everything she haven't told yet by lying that she is getting sued for assisting a date rape. There is a possibility she was actually present at the house and saw everything. Makes more sense because she started crying.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: She Keeps saying it was on mistake in 15 years*



LostViking said:


> She destroyed the family. Not him.
> 
> He has every moral and legal right to divorce her if he chooses.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes he does but it's his decision and one that he shouldn't make hastily and without all the information necessary to make an informed choice.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: She Keeps saying it was on mistake in 15 years*



Almostrecovered said:


> I think the point you're missing here bfree is that steve isn't filing over the affair at this point but rather the half-effort being made on behalf of his wife to help him heal from it. According to OP she promised several things like an STD test but did not follow through with it (aka rugsweeping). Filing for D now has put a timetable on her to keep her promises or fail to do the things she needs to in order to have a proper R.


Yes but Steve also stated that for the last two months he has been in his own fog. He hasn't demanded these things. He should. And if anyone tried to say that his wife should take the initiative to do it all herself I would say that is very unlikely. Almost all WS would rather not face up to the disgusting thing they've done. Would anyone? Is only when the BS demands things that they start to happen.


----------



## LostViking

bfree said:


> Yes he does but it's his decision and one that he shouldn't make hastily and without all the information necessary to make an informed choice.


True. But in the end no one should criticize him for choosing to finish what his wife started. Yes she was on drugs and alcohol and yes her judgement may have been impaired. But... This is a grown woman, not a child. She consciously made the decision to drink knowing that doing so, coupled with her medication, could result in a bad physical reaction and inebriation. She chose to mix the two together. It was her risk and she took that risk with eyes open. And so she must accept the responsibility of a lost gamble.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrK

She was a veteran at trolling meat markets. 

SHE KNEW WHAT SHE WAS DOING!!!


----------



## Suspecting

You can't know that. It seems odd she hasn't taken the STD test yet. There's something we are missing here.


----------



## Row Jimmy

Some of you choosing to call this RAPE and wanting to get the police involved is just a little crazy.

From the first post.... "She can and cant remember some of the night after the clubs but does remember at the house kissing/fondling and asking the kid a to wear a condom."

This is so far from rape when you remember kissing and fondling and being cognizant enought to ask for a condom. 

It's a women who is bombed and acting single and not thinking of her kid or her husband. 

I like that the OP has filed for divorce to make this have serious consequences but he should also carefully consider what he wants and what he wants his future to look like. His kids would likely prefer to keep the family intact and he will likely take a serious financial hit in manageing two households instead of the one. 

Unlike many other situations I've seen on here, I would serious consider trying to work thru this as she seemed terrific and meant the world to you before this "situation" occured.

Everyone makes mistakes. It's how you try to fix it and change to prevent it from happening again that matters.

I wish you strength in making the right choice!


----------



## Suspecting

Row Jimmy, I didn't refer to that incident but what possibly happened after that when she passed out for two hours. According to her there were three men in the house. What did they do there and why did the co-worker escape the scene? Read the OP's last post in this thread it has update info.


----------



## jnj express

The post Steve describing the happening, according to wife----"she went out on the deck, he followed, it escalated, and bingo---legs are spread"

The co-workers were there, yes they should have checked on her, but who really knows they why's of that night, and what everyone was doing---maybe all the ladies were having sex---who really knows

Only the wife knows the real truth, and what her real condition actually was---but by stating "put on a condom"---SHE F'ing NEW WHAT WAS ABOUT TO HAPPEN

Only way to get any semblance of the REAL TRUTH, is to Polygraph---the wife, and the co-workers---that probably AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN


----------



## Blue Firefly

Suspecting said:


> You can't know that. It seems odd she hasn't taken the STD test yet. There's something we are missing here.


My first thought on that is she has already taken one and is waiting for the results, so she can get cured (if possible) without telling her husband. She may feel that adding an STD on top of the other news would be more than her husband could take.

Or, this could just be part of a larger theme of putting off all of the things she said she would do to reconcile.


----------



## JCD

Entropy3000 said:


> I think people are misundertanding my point. I am not saying she was legally raped.
> 
> But I do think she was prey.
> 
> That said, I reiterate it is critical to get eye witness information as to whay they left her there.


Well, in that case I only dated 'prey'. I wanted to get into the panties of almost every girl I dated and set out to do just that. I wined them, I dined them, and I tried to get them alone.

Some people call that 'dating'.


----------



## Entropy3000

jnj express said:


> The post Steve describing the happening, according to wife----"she went out on the deck, he followed, it escalated, and bingo---legs are spread"
> 
> The co-workers were there, yes they should have checked on her, but who really knows they why's of that night, and what everyone was doing---maybe all the ladies were having sex---who really knows
> 
> Only the wife knows the real truth, and what her real condition actually was---but by stating "put on a condom"---SHE F'ing NEW WHAT WAS ABOUT TO HAPPEN
> 
> Only way to get any semblance of the REAL TRUTH, is to Polygraph---the wife, and the co-workers---that probably AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN


This occured to me. Maybe more than the wife had sex with someone.


----------



## Entropy3000

JCD said:


> Well, in that case I only dated 'prey'. I wanted to get into the panties of almost every girl I dated and set out to do just that. I wined them, I dined them, and I tried to get them alone.
> 
> Some people call that 'dating'.


Me too.

But not my coworkers wife.

And I never had to have the women helped to my house.

She was surrounded by her husbands coworkers.

This is what makes this different. She was out with friends and people who know her husband. I do not care if she stripped naked, did the dance of the seven veils and begged them to bang her.

Yes she is repsonsible. But someone, anyone should have got her home.


----------



## JCD

Entropy3000 said:


> Me too.
> 
> But not my coworkers wife.
> 
> And I never had to have the women helped to my house.
> 
> She was surrounded by her husbands coworkers.
> 
> This is what makes this different. She was out with friends and people who know her husband. I do not care if she stripped naked, did the dance of the seven veils and begged them to bang her.
> 
> Yes she is repsonsible. But someone, anyone should have got her home.


Some men are dogs. Unfortunately, you can't even shoot dogs in the street, much less this ilk.

Here I respectfully disagree with you. If I were there, I would remonstrate with her. I would tell her she is making a mistake. I might even threaten to tell her husband.

But if she was sober enough to put a p in her v of her own will, it's on HER, not me.

I am not responsible for saving her from herself, just from REALLY BAD situations.

Now...I don't know how drunk she was. Maybe it was apparent she was blotto and maybe it wasn't.

Frankly, I am unsure of exactly how many of the female friends remained at the house.


----------



## Iver

Two things keep jumping out at me:
1. She was drunk enough that she needed help walking to the co-workers house. 

2. Your co-workers left her in that house with 3 men. Jesus Christ. 

As stated earlier - with friends like that you don't need enemies. I can't begin to understand why they did that. 

It is probably too late for this now but she should have been checked for drugs - it happens enough that it is a real posibilty one of the men spiked her drink. 

(A friend of mine was at a bar in S.F. - a guy got her a drink and she told me she started feeling numb and her hands were tingling - and the guy was acting weird...she left with her friends by the way...just saying it does happen)

I'm sorry that you and your children have to deal with this garbage. I hope you can work it out somehow but I agree you need to keep digging here - unless you really do want to throw the towel in.


----------



## Row Jimmy

If you can Steve, try to give her a true chance to show you her heart. Try to feel her remorse. Talk to her, set some new boundaries and tell her what it is you need from her to move past this if that's what you want to do. 

Give her at least a chance to try to fix what she broke. 

If you can't do that and can't get past it then you can't get past it but at least you can say you tried your best. 

One way or another
One way or another
One way or another
this darkness got to give


----------



## Suspecting

What I think is being missed by some here is that she took drugs with the alcohol. She was not drunk she was *on drugs*. And there is no way telling how those affected her. Obviously she couldn't walk at least.


----------



## tacoma

Did this just devolve into yet another cheating wife was raped thread?

WTF people?
Your crying rape on the desperate exaggerated story of a wife just busted for infidelity?


----------



## bfree

LostViking said:


> True. But in the end no one should criticize him for choosing to finish what his wife started. Yes she was on drugs and alcohol and yes her judgement may have been impaired. But... This is a grown woman, not a child. She consciously made the decision to drink knowing that doing so, coupled with her medication, could result in a bad physical reaction and inebriation. She chose to mix the two together. It was her risk and she took that risk with eyes open. And so she must accept the responsibility of a lost gamble.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Absolutely. If Steve decides to divorce I fully support him. But its not a decision that should be taken lightly and made in ignorance.


----------



## bfree

MrK said:


> She was a veteran at trolling meat markets.
> 
> SHE KNEW WHAT SHE WAS DOING!!!


Oh Jimminy Crickets!


----------



## Rollin

Suspecting said:


> What I think is being missed by some here is that she took drugs with the alcohol. She was not drunk she was *on drugs*. And there is no way telling how those affected her. Obviously she couldn't walk at least.


Firstly, according to the WIFES story, she was not raped, she gave consent. Thats it. 

Secondly, you continuously state that she was on drugs/drunk as if its some excuse. Your acting like she didn't choose to get drunk or take those drugs, when she did both by herself. No-one forced liquor down her throat. 

She chose to drink, and everyone knows what happens when you drink, but she chose to take that risk. She couldn't control herself, and drinking is not an excuse.


----------



## Entropy3000

JCD said:


> Some men are dogs. Unfortunately, you can't even shoot dogs in the street, much less this ilk.
> 
> Here I respectfully disagree with you. If I were there, I would remonstrate with her. I would tell her she is making a mistake. I might even threaten to tell her husband.
> 
> But if she was sober enough to put a p in her v of her own will, it's on HER, not me.
> 
> I am not responsible for saving her from herself, just from REALLY BAD situations.
> 
> Now...I don't know how drunk she was. Maybe it was apparent she was blotto and maybe it wasn't.
> 
> *Frankly, I am unsure of exactly how many of the female friends remained at the house.*


Yes, I think there is more information but that information is going implicate others as well. Maybe this was a drunken orgy. 

I do not get the sense that this young asked her back to the house. It sounds like they got her back their and she was a target of opportunity.

I am not so sure it was the young friend. It may have been the male coworker.


----------



## Suspecting

Rollin said:


> Firstly, according to the WIFES story, she was not raped, she gave consent. Thats it.
> 
> Secondly, you continuously state that she was on drugs/drunk as if its some excuse. Your acting like she didn't choose to get drunk or take those drugs, when she did both by herself. No-one forced liquor down her throat.
> 
> She chose to drink, and everyone knows what happens when you drink, but she chose to take that risk. She couldn't control herself, and drinking is not an excuse.


You don't know any of that. It's just your opinion. I haven't said she was raped. I said it *seems *like a date rape. This has nothing to do with his wife's possible intent to have sex with one of the guys.


----------



## Entropy3000

Rollin said:


> Firstly, according to the WIFES story, she was not raped, she gave consent. Thats it.
> 
> Secondly, you continuously state that she was on drugs/drunk as if its some excuse. Your acting like she didn't choose to get drunk or take those drugs, when she did both by herself. No-one forced liquor down her throat.
> 
> She chose to drink, and everyone knows what happens when you drink, but she chose to take that risk. She couldn't control herself, and drinking is not an excuse.


A technicallity. An important legal one for sure.

My problem with this is that they basiclly hustled her back to the bachelor pad. Her and three guys. 

If these were not coworkers I would feel different about it.


----------



## Blue Firefly

Entropy3000 said:


> Yes, I think there is more information but that information is going implicate others as well. Maybe this was a drunken orgy.


In my experience (from a long, long time ago), coworkers going out for a drink after work can be little more than a prelude to everyone hooking up.

It was inevitable that on every outing at least a couple of people would "have too much to drink" and end up going home together.

Everyone knows each other. They talk and flirt throughout the day. With that much familiarity everyone's barriers are lowered.

So, if the OP's wife got tipsy and hooked up with one of the guys, it might have just been taken in stride (just two more in a long line of coworkers that have hooked up after going out for drinks after work).


----------



## Rollin

Suspecting said:


> You don't know any of that. It's just your opinion. I haven't said she was raped. I said it *seems *like a date rape. This has nothing to do with his wife's possible intent to have sex with one of the guys.


Don't know any of what? The OP specifically said that the wife remembered giving consent. Therefore its not rape.


----------



## Iver

If the OP has not done so he needs to get Athol Kay's MMSLP. 

I agree the wife was grossly irresponsible with the booze and medication...and I understand she agreed to the sex.

But I feel I need to reiterate she was so blotto/zonked/lit that she couldn't walk without someone helping her. (I would want to confirm that with the co-workers as well.)

Assuming the wife is telling the truth I don't think this is as black and white a situation as some are making it out to be.

That said I believe if they do wish to reconcile a move and new job are probably in order. (after an STD test and Poly...)


----------



## jnj express

If you guys bothered to read steve's account of what the wife said---the whole group went back to the apt.---the 3 men, and the 4 women------one guy and one guy only was a co-worker----all 3 women were co-workers

She was helped---but she was obviously mobile, cuz no one carried her anywhere---she also walked out onto the deck, where she under her own power, and of her own free will spread her legs--------cuz she asked him to put on a condem----now do you all have what happened---in your heads----surmise what happened from there, but at least know what the facts are, before you start deciding what did/did't/should/shouldn't happen

Last fact---she drank, then after drinking, she popped her meds


----------



## Squeakr

jnj express said:


> If you guys bothered to read steve's account of what the wife said-but at least know what the facts are, before you start deciding what did/did't/should/shouldn't happen
> 
> Last fact---she drank, then after drinking, she popped her meds


These are not facts at this point but statements. A fact is proven. These statements are not proven at this point, so it is not a fact.

We don't know she consented, just that she said she did. We do know she drank, but not when she took the pills, just her statements. e don't know if he pressured her or not to make her consent (heck she might have even hit on him and provided the condom).

My wife told me several things about her A, and each time it changes even though she states it is fact. We do not know anything as a truth, except that which is verified by a third party to be true.


----------



## dogman

Frankly I question everything about this story. There's a good chance it's entirely fiction. There's been a lot of that lately.

It doesn't add up...

Two months since this happened and no STD test yet. Have they not slept together since this happened?

Drugs and booze , tweaks our imaginations.

The coworkers leaving her there with 3 men and crying about it later. It seems like we're being fed info that if a reasonable person connects the dots, the dots say very bad things. Then when the things are said, everyone is told they're making a mountain out of a mole hill and thy should stop. Humph! 


I think I'll relegate this thread to checking after the OPs next post only. If there is a next post.


----------



## ThePheonix

Suspecting said:


> You don't know any of that. It's just your opinion. I haven't said she was raped. I said it *seems *like a date rape. This has nothing to do with his wife's possible intent to have sex with one of the guys.


If she was truly intoxicated, it doesn't matter if her intoxication was voluntary. She/steve could have a standing to sue as well as grounds to file criminal charges. In any case, Steve could get to the bottom of this whole incident via the legal system. Back in the day, I'd have the guy, his buddies, the other chicks and maybe the company CEO all crapping in their pants on Steve's behalf.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

OK so I’m one of the ‘if she cheats even once kick her to the curb’ guys on here. I posted some comments to that effect on this thread yesterday. 


But like some others here, the more Steve posts the more questions I have regarding whether this was truly a consensual act. Please anyone/everyone correct me on any errors in the story. Fire away at anything I say below, in fact…….

	If she was really attracted to this guy (complete stranger) why wouldn’t she just ask for his number, suggest they meet up in a few days or etc. - why would she start sexual touching leading to PIV while 3 of her husband’s coworkers (female) and another coworker acquaintance (male – the guy whose house she was at) were around?! Am starting to think that makes no sense at all……not even typical cheating behavior
	She remembers part of the sexual activity but not all of it. Being socially drunk - and having blackouts, passing out in a strange house away from home, then being in bed most of the next day - are two very different things aren’t they? Does she have a drinking problem? Is she an alcoholic? 
	If she’s being truthful on what she remembers, she was passing in and out of consciousness DURING the sexual activity. If that’s not legally incapacitated, has to be very close. And of course there’s no way to know whether she was ‘slipped’ something or not, unless someone can swear they were watching her glass all night. 

I can’t explain why she’d be so quick to claim full responsibility to Steve, or why none of her friends expressed concern on her being taken advantage etc. I think Steve might want to get a criminal background check on his male coworker (whose house it was, whom he does not know well) and this guys friend – the complete stranger that his wife had sex with. Nothing to lose doing that, is there? Aren’t these fairly cheap??


----------



## jnj express

I think they pretty much are the facts, cuz the wife, and all the co-workers seem to agree on the set-up, and circumstances----as to beyond that---who knows anything----all of the women, and all of the men, might have been going at it-----no one knows but those who were actually present

Don't forget these are veteran GNO's, who rarely get questioned by their H's----they are liable to be into anything, and everything

This more than likely is not a phony thread---it is perfectly palatable, as to what happened---you can believe it or not---steve is coming here for help----respond if you think you can help him with advice---if you think its phoney---then ignore it---but don't just make a rash statement that the thread is this or its that---cuz you don't actually know any more than the rest of us


----------



## Acabado

I insist. Female coworker has at least a gret deal of the story.


----------



## Will_Kane

I think the female co-workers know more than they are saying. Don't want to make things worse than they are with the original poster. Might have encouraged it.

This is a group of women who every other month go out to MULTIPLE PICKUP bars in a night and most likely get drunk. The reason they go to pickup bars is to look at guys, flirt with guys, and experience some of the single lifestyle. Maybe dance with guys. Then later they all laugh about the different guys who hit on them. This is a fairly close-knit group. NO WAY they ditched their friend and NO WAY it went down how they said it did.

NO WAY that NO ONE knows the other man's name.

There are a lot of possibilities as to what really happened, some with your wife being more culpable and some less culpable. Maybe your wife ignored all of their warnings to stop drinking and they got p1ssed and said good, let her dig this hole for herself. Or maybe she insisted that they leave her to go to this guy's house and she wouldn't be talked out of it, and the alcohol/medication only hit her full strength once she was at the guy's house.

I would be interested to hear from the female co-workers as to WHY they felt it was OK to let your wife go there, WHY they didn't tell their husbands to call you or WHY they didn't call you. I'd like to hear their assessment of how drunk your wife was.

Keep in mind, this is a group of tight-knit female friends who are no strangers to going bar-hopping from pickup bar to pickup bar and having other guys consistently hitting on them. They are veterans of this scene and it is their entertainment of choice - not dinner, not a movie, not a play, not a comedy club, not a concert or show - drinking in pickup bars without their husbands.

1 - I would press the husbands of this group for answers.

2 - I would hold your wife completely responsible for what happened unless you get evidence otherwise (which isn't likely).

3 - Tell her talk is cheap, she has said all the right things, but NOW is the time for ACTION. You need to see something from her to know she's not just giving you lip service.

It was her adultery, she was attracted to the guy


----------



## ThePheonix

Here's the way it went down. Some of folks at Steve's company considers him a threat and need to do something to 
neutralize him. The plan is to embarrass and humiliate him through his wife who is easily set up due to her activities.
The ring leader of the GNO group (now an accessory) encourages the wife to drink to excess and slips a little extra substance (flunitrazepam ) in her drinks. The girls, with the encouragement of the ring leader, virtually drag the wife over at the perps house where the young "ringer" is waiting. The fix in now in. The girls ultimately abandon the wife leaving the ringer, at least, to have his way with her. Pictures have probably been taken. The young guy was brought in because he was relatively unknown and easily disappears. Of the few things remembers while in a semi conscience state was tell the ringer to please wear a condom if he is going to force himself on her. The aftermath is that Steve's career with the company is now damaged. 
Read the effects of flunitrazepam and compare those with the way Steve described his wife. Steve and his wife should bring charges against this group and Steve can watch them sing like a mega choir. The crying chick who told Steve the story is probably either an accessory before or after the fact and is the weak link. Hey, if you want to get to the truth.


----------



## Entropy3000

Will_Kane said:


> I think the female co-workers know more than they are saying. Don't want to make things worse than they are with the original poster. Might have encouraged it.
> 
> This is a group of women who every other month go out to MULTIPLE PICKUP bars in a night and most likely get drunk. The reason they go to pickup bars is to look at guys, flirt with guys, and experience some of the single lifestyle. Maybe dance with guys. Then later they all laugh about the different guys who hit on them. This is a fairly close-knit group. NO WAY they ditched their friend and NO WAY it went down how they said it did.
> 
> NO WAY that NO ONE knows the other man's name.
> 
> There are a lot of possibilities as to what really happened, some with your wife being more culpable and some less culpable. Maybe your wife ignored all of their warnings to stop drinking and they got p1ssed and said good, let her dig this hole for herself. Or maybe she insisted that they leave her to go to this guy's house and she wouldn't be talked out of it, and the alcohol/medication only hit her full strength once she was at the guy's house.
> 
> I would be interested to hear from the female co-workers as to WHY they felt it was OK to let your wife go there, WHY they didn't tell their husbands to call you or WHY they didn't call you. I'd like to hear their assessment of how drunk your wife was.
> 
> Keep in mind, this is a group of tight-knit female friends who are no strangers to going bar-hopping from pickup bar to pickup bar and having other guys consistently hitting on them. They are veterans of this scene and it is their entertainment of choice - not dinner, not a movie, not a play, not a comedy club, not a concert or show - drinking in pickup bars without their husbands.
> 
> 1 - I would press the husbands of this group for answers.
> 
> 2 - I would hold your wife completely responsible for what happened unless you get evidence otherwise (which isn't likely).
> 
> 3 - Tell her talk is cheap, she has said all the right things, but NOW is the time for ACTION. You need to see something from her to know she's not just giving you lip service.
> 
> It was her adultery, she was attracted to the guy


One of the very best posts around here. 

Thank you for putting into rational words what I could not figure out how to say. 

I love all of it. I did not think of #1 above. Brilliant. Yes these husbands know something. But for sure they have a stake in this game. There is plenty these husbands do not know that they need to know themselves. This event should have far reaching consequences. Not just blown off as an oopsie. This is a lifestyle. That in this case impacts a number of families. There is way more to this.


----------



## Entropy3000

ThePheonix said:


> Here's the way it went down. Some of folks at Steve's company considers him a threat and need to do something to
> neutralize him. The plan is to embarrass and humiliate him through his wife who is easily set up due to her activities.
> The ring leader of the GNO group (now an accessory) encourages the wife to drink to excess and slips a little extra substance (flunitrazepam ) in her drinks. The girls, with the encouragement of the ring leader, virtually drag the wife over at the perps house where the young "ringer" is waiting. The fix in now in. The girls ultimately abandon the wife leaving the ringer, at least, to have his way with her. Pictures have probably been taken. The young guy was brought in because he was relatively unknown and easily disappears. Of the few things remembers while in a semi conscience state was tell the ringer to please wear a condom if he is going to force himself on her. The aftermath is that Steve's career with the company is now damaged.
> Read the effects of flunitrazepam and compare those with the way Steve described his wife. Steve and his wife should bring charges against this group and watch them sing like a mega choir .


A possible scenario. 

You know. In business or in a grudge match ...
The way you cut another man to where he is nothing. The way you take his legs out ... is his wife.
This does happen. A man may actually bed his rivals wife to cut him to nothing. There is no come back. It is the ultimate. There is no greater humiliation. This is especially true if this man has lots of pictures of his wife on his desk or talks opnely how much he loves her and so on. In a small company if there is a power struggle this can seal the deal. The man loses his credibility. He becomes the punchline.

In general given the choice of conspiracy versus complicity I take complicity. It takes a lot of effort to have a conspiracy. But it is very possible this was a setup to hunliate the husband. She allowed. Her lifestyle made her a target. Then others became complicit.

I am not saying this IS what happened. It may very well be the simpler answer. But while the simpler answer is a decent bet, it is not the only possibility.

There are pieces to this puzzle. And I do not think he should assume things are done. He needs to seek the truth. He does not have it yet. He must know who this guy was. This guy may have been there. But he may have taken the wrap.

Do these coworkers resent the OP so much as to allow this? Maybe the cowrkers did not call because they were not supposed to be at the house either. The husbands probably know when their wives got home.


----------



## JCD

Okay, you are a guy. We could talk about your feelings a whole lot...or I can give you the best advice I can.

You say you are trying the 180. Um...the 180 doesn't have a section on 'multiple vacations and excursions with the wayward in a way to make her feel better'. (It is more likely SHE is trying to drown you in cream so YOU feel a hell of a lot better about her. While her efforts on that behalf are laudable, cream is cheap...just saying. I'm betting those guys at the bar thought she was a lot of fun too. I am NOT trying to make things worse for you, just pointing out the superficial nature of this fix)

BE POLITE and BE BUSY/DISTANT. And I dont' mean busy with her. Nor am I suggesting that you do guy's nights out. I am suggesting that there are a hell of a lot of movies, shows, activities and hobbies that YOU as a man have had to put on the back burner because of family faithfulness. Guess what? Go and do some of them. Pick up a local paper TODAY and look for a movie you want to see and just GO tonight! Do not invite her.

You need a pool of introspection and quiet to listen to your inner voice. Go and find your 'cave'. This is a quiet safe place where you can refresh your spirit. For me it was this water fall. Find yours and spend a bunch of time there alone or with the kids poking about (they don't need much supervison) Let your spirit tell you how it wants you to proceed.

Third, I dont' care if you've been intimate with her in the last two months (your silence on the matter is deafening...and you probably feel like a fool for wanting to) You aren't a fool, you are a normal guy and she has a sh*tload to try to make up for you. Who turns down free sex? (Something to bear in mind if you reconcile)

But I would stop now! WHEN she asks (and I'm betting dollars to doughnuts that she's been initiating more than you've ever seen before) tell her that you won't take your safety for granted anymore. Tell her to schedule you an STD test since she doesn't care enough about your health to do it herself.

(on the other paw, if this is a small community as you seem to alude to, she KNOWS or seriously suspects that if she goes in for that test, the fact of that will spread like wildfire and she wants to cling to some tatters of her reputation...however badgers are not known for their charitable nature, so I don't care what she feels on this. If YOU are feeling charitable, mention that she can take a day trip to X city where her testing will be a lot more anonymous...unless you want your pound of flesh at the expense of her rep)

Next up, you need to channel your inner badger. Call all of these worthless coworkers' HUSBANDS and mention a few relevant facts:

-They are STARTING with dinner but quickly degenerating to bar hopping.

-That they seem to be meeting up with men during these jaunts

-And that they seem to be A-OK with one or more of their members just wandering off unsupervised to spend the evening with...well...you aren't sure exactly WHO wanders off and for what purpose. You are curious. You think they might have a few questions for their wives too.

-That their first instinct for a dangerously drunken woman was NOT to call her husband for help, but to drop her off at another man's apartment.

The ones who left early will PROBABLY be able to weather the storm (though they will certainly be asked about how much coverage they gave each other and might get the third degree about other wives' activities...) The others are probably badger meat.

See? Now you don't need to worry about GNOs ANY more...

(this might already be happening)

List of Poly questions:

Do you regularly meet men on these GNOs?

Do you regularly dance or have long talks with other men on these GNOs?

Did you use a condom during your sexual encounter?

Do you know the name of the man you had sex with?

Did you have sex only the one time outside of your marital vows?

Have you ever kissed men on your GNOs?

Do you suspect any of your co-workers had sex during that evening?

Did any of your co-workers go off with men alone during these GNOs?

Did you set up the meeting with the men?

Do you EVER set up meetings with men during a GNO?

Do you have a boyfriend?

Do any of your married GNO friends have boyfriends?

She will probably balk at some of these questions. Can't you let sleeping dogs lie? (Oh...they're lying alright...) Tell her that kama sutra sex and your favorite meals aren't love, they are a bribe. She needs to choose what relationship is most important to her...if she asks. She'll probably get it.

You might have a private bathroom for you and your wife. On the inside of the door, put this up on a piece of paper with check boxes.

Highway to Healing (ed note: Barf)

STD tests

Discussion with Family

Personal counseling

Marriage counseling

Polygraph test

Written document of exactly what you did and with whom, who was there and who was aware.

She would like to PURPOSEFULLY forget to do these things. You are giving her a gentle reminder of what it will take to get you back on track as a husband. Make a point of looking at it openly checking for check marks.

If you do NOT have a personal bathroom, put it on the inside door of your bedroom or around her make up mirror. Someplace she can see it curled like a waiting viper...

That's it for me.


----------



## theroad

Suspecting said:


> I would try trickle truth the female co-worker into admitting everything she haven't told yet by lying that she is getting sued for assisting a date rape. There is a possibility she was actually present at the house and saw everything. Makes more sense because she started crying.


A good point. This woman must know a lot of happened that night. There was no need for her to cry unless she knows stuff that she wished she had not seen.


----------



## ThePheonix

Entropy3000 said:


> A possible scenario.
> 
> 
> 
> He needs to seek the truth.
> 
> My point. If he can cause them to be interrogated or deposed, he'll have the truth.
> 
> 
> Do these coworkers resent the OP so much as to allow this?
> 
> They did. They abandoned her in a sub conscience state. You just cannot think much of a person when you're willing to leave their spouse in that type situation.


----------



## realist

A smart woman who respects her husband wouldnt even put herself in that position to begin with
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## See_Listen_Love

This still can go to the extremes of a date rape or the GNO hunting party.

The know facts are for a large part statements by her and others about the things that happened. The statement is a fact, what is told in it not, until it is verified.

More answers are needed from the friends about these guys and why she was left alone, if she was. All of it is questionable, which does not mean it can't be true. Based on all these information, you produce questions for a polygraph.


----------



## ThePheonix

realist said:


> A smart woman who respects her husband wouldnt even put herself in that position to begin with
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're right. Married women who frequent clubs and bars without their husbands are often looking for attention from males. Show me a group of GNOutters at clubs and I'll show you a group where 25-50% will play.


----------



## Chaparral

Anti anxiety drugs are tranqilizers, remembering the qualudes of the last century, I pretty much think that explains it all.

You can toss out your cowworkers as friends, I'll bet they thought this was funny as hell.

Mixing tranqs and alcohol is a sure way to screw up and die. Keep an eye on her for overdosing. She must be going through hell.

Why is she on these drugs?


----------



## Aunt Ava

May I ask how long has she been taking the anti-anxiety meds? Is is something she takes daily or only when needed? The GNO's have been a long term regular thing correct?


----------



## workindad

OP Aunt Ava asks a very good series of questions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## dusty4

Suspecting said:


> What I think is being missed by some here is that she took drugs with the alcohol. She was not drunk she was *on drugs*. And there is no way telling how those affected her. Obviously she couldn't walk at least.


"*She can and cant remember some of the night after the clubs but does remember at the house kissing/fondling and asking the kid a to wear a condom.*"

She knew what was going on, unless she was lying about asking the guy to wear a rubber.


----------



## Suspecting

dusty4 said:


> "*She can and cant remember some of the night after the clubs but does remember at the house kissing/fondling and asking the kid a to wear a condom.*"
> 
> She knew what was going on, unless she was lying about asking the guy to wear a rubber.


You read only the first post from the OP? It is possible to be drugged immobilized but still be able to think and talk. Not saying she was.


----------



## dusty4

Suspecting said:


> You read only the first post from the OP?


No, but did he come back later and tell us that she changed the story and that she did not ask the guy to wear the condom?

If I missed that, let me know.


----------



## dusty4

> It is possible to be drugged immobilized *but still be able to think and talk*. Not saying she was


Exactly! And she talked didn't she? Told the guy to put on a condom.

Immobilized? How does she, of her own admittance, kiss and fondle with the guy if she was immobilized.

The whole rape thing is grasping at straws because some want to give her the benefit of the doubt. Ok, fine, give her the benefit of the doubt. Her behavior is still enough for OP to be justifiably concerned about whether he wants to be married to her.


----------



## Suspecting

dusty4 said:


> No, but did he come back later and tell us that she changed the story and that she did not ask the guy to wear the condom?
> 
> If I missed that, let me know.


She also DID say she wasn't able to walk because of her condition after taking the drugs and alcohol so she needed help to be mobile. That's how I interpret when someone says they need help to walk. They are too drunk/drugged in my opinion.


----------



## dusty4

Suspecting said:


> She also DID say she wasn't able to walk because of her condition after taking the drugs and alcohol so she needed help to be mobile. That's how I interpret when someone says they need help to walk. They are too drunk/drugged in my opinion.


Don't get me wrong, I understand your thinking on this, but the fact remains, she asked the guy to wear the condom and was mobile enough to make out with him. She had no business being there in the first place and should have asked her friends to take her home.

Now after the bar if she didn't remember anything and her friends drug her to this guy's house, I'd be in complete agreement that it would be a date rape.

But she knew what was going on. She wanted the guy.

So all the "rape" talk aside, do you think this guy has a legitimate concern having a wife that clubs or parties?


----------



## Suspecting

dusty4 said:


> Exactly! And she talked didn't she? Told the guy to put on a condom.
> 
> Immobilized? How does she, of her own admittance, kiss and fondle with the guy if she was immobilized.
> 
> The whole rape thing is grasping at straws because some want to give her the benefit of the doubt. Ok, fine, give her the benefit of the doubt. Her behavior is still enough for OP to be justifiably concerned about whether he wants to be married to her.


We just have to agree to disagree on this.


----------



## dusty4

Do you think the OP has a legitimate reason to be concerned about his wife's behavior?


----------



## Squeakr

dusty4 said:


> Now after the bar if she didn't remember anything and her friends drug her to this guy's house, I'd be in complete agreement that it would be a date rape.


I agree on him having concerns as his trust is shot. But I found this interesting and looked further into it (as a similar situation occurred for my wife). According to the laws, date rape is when she is deemed under the influence and in such a state as to not have been able to clearly make an informed choice to give consent. Just because someone says yes, if they are influenced in such a way as to not be able to make a clear and informed decision, then it could clearly be deemed a date rape (especially if she didn't go out with the intent to have sex with him but did in the end).


----------



## Suspecting

dusty4 said:


> Don't get me wrong, I understand your thinking on this, but the fact remains, she asked the guy to wear the condom and was mobile enough to make out with him. She had no business being there in the first place and should have asked her friends to take her home.
> 
> Now after the bar *if she didn't remember anything* and her friends drug her to this guy's house, I'd be in complete agreement that it would be a date rape.
> 
> But she knew what was going on. She wanted the guy.
> 
> So all the "rape" talk aside, do you think this guy has a legitimate concern having a wife that clubs or parties?


The story is not clear on whether she went there herself or was she carried there. Maybe she passed out (not remembering the foreplay before the sex) and woke up to the guy on top of her. Then she does have two hour gap after the sex. Then she woke up again and called her husband. If she was not conscious it is rape doesn't matter if she drugged herself and passed out naked. If she really took drugs with alcohol it's no wonder she had memory gaps and mobility issues. Like Chapparal said they are like tranquilizers when combined with alcohol.

It is best to stop these theories now and wait for the OP to update with new info.


----------



## dusty4

Suspecting said:


> It is best to stop these theories now and wait for the OP to update with new info.


This we can agree on. The issue at hand is can he look past his wife's behavior.


----------



## dusty4

Squeakr said:


> I agree on him having concerns as his trust is shot. But I found this interesting and looked further into it (as a similar situation occurred for my wife). According to the laws, date rape is when she is deemed under the influence and in such a state as to not have been able to clearly make an informed choice to give consent. Just because someone says yes, if they are influenced in such a way as to not be able to make a clear and informed decision, then it could clearly be deemed a date rape (especially if she didn't go out with the intent to have sex with him but did in the end).


So no means no, and yes means no. What does, "put on a condom" mean?

Its getting to the point that every guy that has sex with a woman needs to have copies of a sexual intercourse contract they need signed before doing the deed, and calling up a judge to get approval


----------



## weightlifter

Steve I am a cynical SOB and if all your info is true (Yes big if) it may be possible to R. Usually I am a divorce her now guy but, Lets lay it out logically.

1) Upon full investigation is the story the same? If not start over until you get the truth. Leads likely to D if the story changes alot.
2) Are you a man who can R after another man has been inside your wife? Look to your heart in this one. **The answer may be simply no.** I know I am a man who could never look into my wifes eyes once another man had been inside her. That is MY territory. That being said, you MIGHT be different. If you cant, then finish the D and find wife 2.0 down the road.

3) If you decide to R make her do all the conditions mentioned and sign it. I would add seven more conditions. Upon agreeing you R:

Read this to her.
Dear Kim. Thinking long and hard I have decided "We" are worth it and am willing to reconcile provided you sign this letter and agree to ALL of the following:
add the usual no contact, no GNO, open facebook, phone, pension rights etc, open email upon demand immediately etc.
a) "There is no time limit nor informational limit to my questions about this night. "Cant we get over this" DOES NOT EXIST. Understand we men are territorial animals. You let another man mark my territory. This cuts me to my soul. While women think with their hearts, it is different for men, you attacked my heart yes, but also my ego. You have crippled both. Yes your vagina is yours but understand, to a man, once he marries, think of it as a lifetime EXCLUSIVE lease of your vagina. Once infidelity happens a million questions swirl through my mind. If they are not answered fully, they will NEVER leave my mind and I cant let go of 'What if' or 'what did'" The answer to the question is no, I can not ever in my life get over it. I can reduce it, reconcile it, think it through but I will never get over it completely.
b) You will carry your divorce papers around in your purse (they may be in an envelope it is for you to think on, not others to see) and sleep with them under your pillow for a (week, month) This is to remind you of just how close you came to killing our marriage.
c) You will aid me in gathering information from your coworkers. you will tell them NOW and outright to answer all my questions now, fully and to the best of their abilities of what went down that night. Again, while logically it seems counterintuitive, it seems like it would increase the hurt but in reality knowing the truth is stitching for my injured heart/ego. Finding out new things or having unanswered questions re-opens that wound.
d) You understand I can monitor fully, using ANY means *I* DEEM USEFUL to assure my own self that you are being faithful. This is for a LIFETIME, not a week, a month, or a year. I can NEVER get fully past this. Basically it comes down to this: My love for you is greater than the burden I have to carry in monitoring you and please realize this is a multiple year recovery for me. I will NEVER be able to get to 100% trust again and that ****ING KILLS ME. I already miss that implicit trust I will NEVER IN MY LIFE FEEL AGAIN. This is a PERMANENT LOSS TO ME.
e) You will NEVER drink without me present directly. You will NEVER be at a bar club or other singles place without me there directly.
f) You will not be in contact with any men not approved by me. This includes FB, email, IM etc. If you are hit on or contacted by the other man you will IMMEDIATELY call me and if not available then text me the relevant information. Texts do count as they are time stamped. BTW when you do this, you help me increase my trust of you.
g) You will take a polygraph. Any new info MUST be given before that polygraph. After that all additional information will be construed as lies to deceive me into reconciling you and will be met in divorce court. 

NONETHELESS, given a long time, we can rebuild a NEW marriage and I will simply accept that no matter what I do, I can get to about 80% trust in a few years and that it will max out at that point. My love for you simply outweighs the loss.

Love Steve

On a poly you get 2 or 3 yes or no questions so... Write down all your questions, even the ones you know and put the answers on that sheet. make your wife review the questions on that sheet (sheets) right before the poly and one of your questions at the ploygraph is this:

Your husband had you look at a sheet of paper with all his questions about your hookup. Did you tell the whole truth on that sheet of paper?


----------



## Squeakr

dusty4 said:


> So no means no, and yes means no. What does, "put on a condom" mean?
> 
> Its getting to the point that every guy that has sex with a woman needs to have copies of a sexual intercourse contract they need signed before doing the deed, and calling up a judge to get approval


This is not a sexist thing. It goes both way, as the guy can also be the victim under the same circumstances. The issues become when the predator knows that the victim is under extreme influence. 

The question is not whether she said yes, put the condom on (and this is her statement, but may not have happened that way. We seem to question her memory on everything, but don't question her memory about this???), with date rape it becomes whether she was in a state to be able to make a conscious and informed decision (and the predator, as yes it could be same sex, needs to make a determination if they "knew" they were under the influence if they were in a state to consent). This determination is why date rape is such a touchy subject.


----------



## dusty4

Love Contract | Chappelle's Show | Comedy Central | PopScreen

^^ This is what its going to come to


----------



## dusty4

Ok, back to the OP.

Steve, any updates as to what is going on?


----------



## Suspecting

dusty4 said:


> So no means no, and yes means no. What does, "put on a condom" mean?
> 
> Its getting to the point that every guy that has sex with a woman needs to have copies of a sexual intercourse contract they need signed before doing the deed, and calling up a judge to get approval


Actually, Julian Assange (founder of WikiLeaks) got rape charge(s) because he allegedly did not wear a condom after the woman/women had asked him to.


----------



## Entropy3000

dusty4 said:


> Don't get me wrong, I understand your thinking on this, but the fact remains, she asked the guy to wear the condom and was mobile enough to make out with him. She had no business being there in the first place and should have asked her friends to take her home.
> 
> Now after the bar if she didn't remember anything and her friends drug her to this guy's house, I'd be in complete agreement that it would be a date rape.
> 
> But she knew what was going on. She wanted the guy.
> 
> So all the "rape" talk aside, do you think this guy has a legitimate concern having a wife that clubs or parties?


I agree strongly with much of this. I am the first to tell people to not blame alcohol. That putting oneself in those circumstances is wrong. I have not changed my mind on this.

However, I also believe that if she had too much to drink AND there were some drugs involved AND the group hurried her down the path to the guys house AND they left the woman there with three men intent on banging this woman that while this does not let her off the hook, it was an attack on her and her marriage. Yes she should have resisted this. BUT, this seems like she was getting pushed by peers into this. Do I know this? No. But while she may have remembered for the guy to put on a condom, I still choose to see this as a form of date rape. Now this is just me. It makes all the difference to me that these were coworkers of her husband. Because rightly or wrongly she had her guard down. She was with friends. They took advantage.

Again not taking her off the hook. Getting a woman drunk for the purpose of taking her to your house so you can work on her and bang in her is not dating like has been suggested. That is preying on someone. I am not a prude. When I was single I wanted to bang women as much as any guy. I did not have to get them drunk to do so. I did not need a group to haul them back to my place so I could close the deal. I sure as hell would have made sure that this woman made it home safe. I would have taken her home personally. She was the wife of a coworker. Holy crap. And the young guy in the coworkers house preying onnthis woman would have been my responibility. No freaking way that that crap goes down under my roof. Not on my watch. Destroying peoples lives just to get a nut is not acceptable. I do not care if she begged for it. It was not going to happen with me around. Now this is just me. But I am not an a$$hole. Well I probably am, but not about this. I am not talking legalities here. IF this went down like it sounds, she was targeted and banged and or gang banged. Again while I do not see her drinking as an excuse, I do not see it either as an excuse for her to get banged. I guess I am that guy. You are my coworker. I may hate your guts. But your wife will not be getting banged if I have anything to say about it. I am going to c0ckblock.

We have no idea what the truth is.


----------



## Entropy3000

Squeakr said:


> I agree on him having concerns as his trust is shot. But I found this interesting and looked further into it (as a similar situation occurred for my wife). According to the laws, date rape is when she is deemed under the influence and in such a state as to not have been able to clearly make an informed choice to give consent. Just because someone says yes, if they are influenced in such a way as to not be able to make a clear and informed decision, then it could clearly be deemed a date rape (especially if she didn't go out with the intent to have sex with him but did in the end).


I have actually seen this when I was in the Navy. A woman totally blitzed. Drugs too. She was virtually out of it. She would have said yes to anything. She was not coherent though. This was too far. This was too close to rape.

So I told the guy to call her tomorrow. He threatened me and basically I kicked his a$$. I told him the only action he was going get was with me. He decided that further action was not in his best interest.

I feel the same way about these drunk teenage girls that get gang banged or whatever. Oh hey, they have no business exposing themselves like this. They are totally wrong because there are tons of guys that will take advantage. But on the flip side when they do as far as I am concerned they have no right to take advantage. Having some drinks, taking a shower together and ending the evening in bed. Wondermous. That said, I prefer coherent women to have sex with. I guess I am kinky that way. I have a need for their full involvement. I want them to remember.


----------



## Entropy3000

dusty4 said:


> So no means no, and yes means no. What does, "put on a condom" mean?
> 
> Its getting to the point that every guy that has sex with a woman needs to have copies of a sexual intercourse contract they need signed before doing the deed, and calling up a judge to get approval


Most people will not agree with this. BUT, the guy should have called her husband and asked him first. She was married and blitzed. I know these days being married means nothing to many. That married women are fair game and even good sport.

So one thing a guy can put at the top of his list is not just that the woman be conscious but if she has been drinking heavily and is married ... How about you not put your penis in her. I know this really narrows down the options for some guys. If this is tough choice for any guy they are a loser with a big L.


----------



## Squeakr

Entropy3000 said:


> Most people will not agree with this. BUT, the guy should have called her husband and asked him first. She was married and blitzed. I know these days being married means nothing to many. That married women are fair game and even good sport.
> 
> So one thing a guy can put at the top of his list is not just that the woman be conscious but if she has been drinking heavily ... How about you not put your penis in her. I know this really narrows down the options for some guys. If this is tough choice for any guy they are a loser with a big L.


Fixed it for you (being married should not be a limiting factor in this type of situation to avoid a "rape" type of situation).


----------



## tacoma

Squeakr said:


> Fixed it for you (being married should not be a limiting factor in this type of situation to avoid a "rape" type of situation).


Actually, you broke it for him.

It was fine before.


----------



## Squeakr

tacoma said:


> Actually, you broke it for him.
> 
> It was fine before.


So you are saying reacting that ways towards a "drunk or drinking heavily" person is fine as long as they are not married? It only becomes "wrong" when they are married?? I don't agree, but then I am not the stereotypical male horn dog just out to hit it with anything that is currently breathing (conscious, consenting, or not).


----------



## tacoma

Squeakr said:


> So you are saying reacting that ways towards a "drunk or drinking heavily" person is fine as long as they are not married? It only becomes "wrong" when they are married??


I love how people around here get to decide what someone else said regardless of what they actually said.
Seriously, it's entertaining as hell.
No...that's not what I'm saying.

What I am saying is that "Drunk" doesn't equate to "Unable to consent" as the current trend of PC states it does.

You can indeed consent just fine when drunk, I've even done it.




> I don't agree, but then I am not the stereotypical male horn dog just out to hit it with anything that is currently breathing (conscious, consenting, or not).


WTF does this have to do with anything?


----------



## warlock07

I haven't used the rape word because we are not there and it could be that the guy was drunk too. We don't know how the event transpired and using the rape word easily is a discredit to actual victims of date rape


----------



## Suspecting

warlock07 said:


> I haven't used the rape word because we are not there and it could be that the guy was drunk too. We don't know how the event transpired and using the rape word easily is a discredit to actual victims of date rape


Whether the guy was drunk or not is irrelevant. Doesn't give him a free pass. It is still my opinion that it seems like a date rape judging from the OP's posts but it is my opinion (and some others'). No need to get offended because of that.


----------



## alte Dame

I think the storyline of the WW as prey could be counterargued by something that OP told us about the aftermath, specifically that afterwards several of the husbands tried to contact him and that their wives didn't want anything more to do with his W. 

This tends to indicate that she was behaving very badly that night & the other women don't want to be associated with her anymore as a result. She might have been very drunk and out of it, but it doesn't sound like she was necessarily prey, at least not for the run-up to the sex.


----------



## dogman

warlock07 said:


> I haven't used the rape word because we are not there and it could be that the guy was drunk too. We don't know how the event transpired and using the rape word easily is a discredit to actual victims of date rape


I have to pop in for this. 

My thread, my fathers secret, is about my mother falsely claiming she was raped and my fathers reaction.

It is horrible to claim something that's not so. The OPs wife doesn't claim she was raped so it wasn't rape. 

I agree with Warlock throwing around the rape word is a discredit to actual rapes.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: She Keeps saying it was on mistake in 15 years*



Plan 9 from OS said:


> Don't think ole Steve is coming back.


Well he did state what he was going to do and had already done. Maybe right now there's really nothing more to add.


----------



## Entropy3000

Squeakr said:


> Fixed it for you (being married should not be a limiting factor in this type of situation to avoid a "rape" type of situation).


Agreed. I was just saying that even if she was willing that her being married in this case should have mattered.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Suspecting said:


> Whether the guy was drunk or not is irrelevant. Doesn't give him a free pass. It is still my opinion that it seems like a date rape judging from the OP's posts but it is my opinion (and some others'). No need to get offended because of that.


Free pass? If he was equally as drunk what then? It isn't about being offended, it is about bias and speculation. People have drunk sex all of the time. So, did she rape him? Of course not because he is a guy.

Many of you argued against speculation, as in serial cheater, and rightly so.

Yet, it is okay to speculate about rape? Then you say don't be offended because he feels rape, with no FACTS, is not a good word to throw around? Strange.


----------



## Squeakr

tacoma said:


> I love how people around here get to decide what someone else said regardless of what they actually said.
> Seriously, it's entertaining as hell.
> No...that's not what I'm saying.
> 
> What I am saying is that "Drunk" doesn't equate to "Unable to consent" as the current trend of PC states it does.
> 
> You can indeed consent just fine when drunk, I've even done it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WTF does this have to do with anything?


I said I fixed his comment (I just removed the marriage reference.) You said it was not broken and just fine, therefor it would be concluded that you agreed with it as is. By stating "and" being married, it only applies when all conditions are met, meaning it wouldn't apply for or to single people (truth tables show the differences between and and or).

As for the rest of it, like you said everyone speaks for everyone else around here. I have been told I am not a "real" man, a beta, a cuckold, etc, because I don't think and act like all "men", so I was just clarifying my standpoint.


----------



## Entropy3000

alte Dame said:


> I think the storyline of the WW as prey could be counterargued by something that OP told us about the aftermath, specifically that afterwards several of the husbands tried to contact him and that their wives didn't want anything more to do with his W.
> 
> This tends to indicate that she was behaving very badly that night & the other women don't want to be associated with her anymore as a result. She might have been very drunk and out of it, but it doesn't sound like she was necessarily prey, at least not for the run-up to the sex.


It does but it could also just mean she got caught and they threw her under the bus. Happens all the time. No officer it was not my dope. It was Bobs. Bob goes down. Then the others say Bob is trash when really they were right there. No this shined a big light on GNO I think. 

But you may be totally right as well. We cannot tell. But did the husbands ever get in contact? The wives talked their hubbies out of this. The wives do not want too much detail coming out.


----------



## Entropy3000

dogman said:


> I have to pop in for this.
> 
> My thread, my fathers secret, is about my mother falsely claiming she was raped and my fathers reaction.
> 
> It is horrible to claim something that's not so. *The OPs wife doesn't claim she was raped so it wasn't rape. *
> 
> I agree with Warlock throwing around the rape word is a discredit to actual rapes.


This is not always true. She may have no idea what happened. I am not saying that is what went down. Just a possibility. She could remember saying yes. But that does not mean it could not have been date rape. This is a grey area, but there is a time when yes is not really yes. I know that boggles the imagination.


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## Squeakr

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Free pass? If he was equally as drunk what then? It isn't about being offended, it is about bias and speculation. People have drunk sex all of the time. So, did she rape him? Of course not because he is a guy.



These are all valid points , if they were both drunk, then technically neither could give consent, and the non-agressor/ non-initiator would be the victim (and it doesn't always mean it would be the female), and yes a guy can be raped.

As a guy, most generally won't pursue and press charges for date rape , just like lots of women won't, because of the stigma that is associated with it and low chances of it being brought to justice. In the case of Assault rape, it is mostly about power and evidence is usually visible, easily, provable, and the victim is generally treated and viewed as such.


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## kenmoore14217

"This is not a sexist thing. It goes both way, as the guy can also be the victim under the same circumstances. The issues become when the predator knows that the victim is under extreme influence."

NOT IN THE EYES OF THE LAW!


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## Squeakr

Entropy3000 said:


> This is not always true. She may have no idea what happened. I am not saying that is what went down. Just a possibility. She could remember saying yes. But that does not mean it could not have been date rape. This is a grey area, but there is a time when yes is not really yes. I know that boggles the imagination.


:iagree: Exactly what I (and I believe others have been saying).

Is she at fault for her actions, definitely. Did she "really" want the sex? We will never know (and she might not either until she can tap that memory).


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## Squeakr

kenmoore14217 said:


> NOT IN THE EYES OF THE LAW!


Why do you say that? It used to be the prevailing ideal, but is becoming more and more the opposite these days as laws are changing to protect all of the innocents.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Squeakr said:


> These are all valid points , if they were both drunk, then technically neither could give consent, and the non-agressor/ non-initiator would be the victim (and it doesn't always mean it would be the female), and yes a guy can be raped.


I know. That male part was sarcasm. I have a buddy who doesn't remember having sex with a woman and was paying child support. When he went to court, for the paternity test, she remembered him and he had no clue who she was or where they met. He remembered a drunk party, but that was all.

We were younger and in our ignorance we BOTH laughed that he was raped. Now, as I have "grown up," I realized that it isn't funny anymore.


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## Suspecting

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Free pass? If he was equally as drunk what then? It isn't about being offended, it is about bias and speculation. People have drunk sex all of the time. So, did she rape him? Of course not because he is a guy.
> 
> Many of you argued against speculation, as in serial cheater, and rightly so.
> 
> Yet, it is okay to speculate about rape? Then you say don't be offended because he feels rape, with no FACTS, is not a good word to throw around? Strange.


No I meant not to get offended if I state my opinion based on the OP's posts not anyone else's. You can argue this to the end of world and you won't change my opinion about this. According to the wife's story the guy(s) "helped" her to the house and then one of them came after her proceeded to have sex with her. Then she passes out, again? Doesn't really sound like she was the initiator does it? Unfortunately all the guys have disappeared from the scene to confirm.


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## bandit.45

The facts that she has failed to take the STD test and do the other minor things her husband asked her to do is the issue at hand. He's never going to get the full story from her or anyone else. 

Right now her refusal to do what he needs her to do to help him heal is what is murdering the marriage. There is a huge lack of respect for him sandwiched between cake eating and absence of true remorse.....I believe we lovingly refer to this as a sh!t sandwich....a turdburger she wants him to swallow. 


Filing for D is the exact right response.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss

Suspecting said:


> No I meant not to get offended if I state my opinion based on the OP's posts not anyone else's. You can argue this to the end of world and you won't change my opinion about this.


I haven't argued YOUR opinion on rape so, we can end that right here. You are entitled to your belief and I haven said anything different.



> According to the wife's story the guy(s) "helped" her to the house and then one of them came after her proceeded to have sex with her. Then she passes out, again? Doesn't really sound like she was the initiator does it? Unfortunately all the guys have disappeared from the scene to confirm.


No, not in your version. In the version I read she accepted full responsibility and as the retelling goes it gets foggier and foggier. I do not know what to believe.

Tht's why I will not use the word "rape" until the OP does.


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## Suspecting

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Tht's why I will not use the word "rape" until the OP does.


And that's why I've specifically added the "seems like". It means it seems like that to me and does not mean I think it is a fact.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Suspecting said:


> And that's why I've specifically added the "seems like". It means it seems like that to me and does not mean I think it is a fact.


I know. I used the word "speculate" earlier, which basically means the same as it "seems like."


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## dusty4

Suspecting said:


> Whether the guy was drunk or not is irrelevant. Doesn't give him a free pass. It is still my opinion that it seems like a date rape judging from the OP's posts but it is my opinion (and some others'). No need to get offended because of that.


Ok then 2 people drunk, impaired mentally, but only one gets to be the jackass, so might as well be the guy. Got it.

Case closed, steve no right to be mad at her and should forget about it.


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## SomedayDig

Wowza. Almost 400 posts and only 7 from the OP.


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## Squeakr

dusty4 said:


> Ok then 2 people drunk, impaired mentally, but only one gets to be the jackass. Got it.
> .


Unfortunately that is the way it works in our society. Someone gets the majority blame and to be found as the root cause of the issue.

Two drunk people, one picks a fight and the other just defends, the instigator gets to be to blamed and be the ass.

A drunk person walks out in front of a drunk driver, unfortunately no matter how bad the walker is hurt or not hurt, the driver will get arrested, charged, and suffer more punishment.


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## Suspecting

SomedayDig said:


> Wowza. Almost 400 posts and only 7 from the OP.


These guys just don't get it that I have my own opinion that might differ from theirs. :scratchhead:

Not gonna take the bait anymore.


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## dusty4

Have your opinion all you want. The issue isn't whether you think its rape.

The issue is whether steve is justified in being angry with her and deciding whether or not he can stay with her.


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## Chaparral

dusty4 said:


> Have your opinion all you want. The issue isn't whether you think its rape.
> 
> The issue is whether steve is justified in being angry with her and deciding whether or not he can stay with her.


I think anyone that has seen what tranquilizers mixed with alcohol will do to a person would see this in a different light. There was a lot of this going around years ago. Qualudes and soapers were common for quite awhile. While I did not partake, those two prescription drugs and cocaine were everywhere. On downers, people could talk till they passed out but had no idea what they were doing. I think that was the attraction.

I would like to think if I were Steve I could forgive this incident if she was cooperating with me. I would want to know why she needs to be medicated, why she was doing so with alcohol, and if this was her regular MO.

As far as the friends go, I am wondering if she was amongst people that were part of their own clique and she was a bit of an outsider. These weren't lifetime friends. She seems to have been thrown to the wolves. Her drug ****tail may have pissed them off......they may consider her an outsider. Evidently no one took the friend that left town's side of this, he seems to have become a pariah. But there is enough speculation.

Not getting the std test and talking with Steve's parents may be due to extreme embarrassment. Hopefully, looking in the face of divorce will bring her around.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Suspecting said:


> These guys just don't get it that I have my own opinion that might differ from theirs. :scratchhead:
> 
> Not gonna take the bait anymore.


Right back at ya, we all have opinions. Some can handle disagreements others can't. Me and JCD disagree on a point, he isn't forcing me or getting angry because I don't see it his way. I know I'm not mad at him.

It is a talking point like everything else in this thread.


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## Chaparral

I can see where people sometimes get upset. Quite frankly there are a lot disrespectful posters that can't handle being disagreed with and just keep on pounding the table with the same statement just reworded.


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## phillybeffandswiss

chapparal said:


> I can see where people sometimes get upset. Quite frankly there are a lot disrespectful posters that can't handle being disagreed with and just keep on pounding the table with the same statement just reworded.


I think that occurs on both sides with respectful and disrespectful posters.


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## Chaparral

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I think that occurs on both sides with respectful and disrespectful posters.


It goes in cycles here, then the mods put the hammer down on a bunch of cwi posters to clean things up.


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## the guy

I guess if one replies with there own perspective/experience and the poster or anyone else for that matter doesn't like what was replied to then is that disrespect?


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## the guy

Hell my old lady phucked around a hell of alot more then OP's chick, and I keep her around...but at the end of the day a deal breaker is a deal break for some folks.

And thats all I got to say about that.


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## barbados

SomedayDig said:


> Wowza. Almost 400 posts and only 7 from the OP.


Some threads really strike a chord, don't they !


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## Madman1

I skipped page 2 through 26.

Is she the woman you married? Is she the kind of woman you want to be married too now?

I would think that is a big NO and NO.

She no change she not worth it! Clear enough?

Move on!


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## dogman

dogman said:


> Frankly I question everything about this story. There's a good chance it's entirely fiction. There's been a lot of that lately.
> 
> It doesn't add up...
> 
> Two months since this happened and no STD test yet. Have they not slept together since this happened?
> 
> Drugs and booze , tweaks our imaginations.
> 
> The coworkers leaving her there with 3 men and crying about it later. It seems like we're being fed info that if a reasonable person connects the dots, the dots say very bad things. Then when the things are said, everyone is told they're making a mountain out of a mole hill and thy should stop. Humph!
> 
> 
> I think I'll relegate this thread to checking after the OPs next post only. If there is a next post.


Still waiting....


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## tacoma

> Originally Posted by Suspecting
> Whether the guy was drunk or not is irrelevant. Doesn't give him a free pass. It is still my opinion that it seems like a date rape judging from the OP's posts but it is my opinion (and some others'). No need to get offended because of that.


Here is the double standard I saw hidden in your posts the whole time.

The woman has no responsibility for anything because she was drunk but the man is still responsible for his actions no matter whether he's drunk or not.

The poor little woman can't be held accountable for her actions can she?
She's JUST a woman.

I wonder how that defense would go over if she was busted for a DUI rather than infidelity?

Not only a hypocritical POV but humorously misogynistic as well.

Thank you for the entertainment


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## bandit.45

I've never seen a thread go off the rails the way this one has.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma

bandit.45 said:


> I've never seen a thread go off the rails the way this one has.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sure you have.

Don't you remember the last thread were someone insinuated a cheating wife was raped?


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

tacoma said:


> Sure you have.
> 
> Don't you remember the last thread were someone insinuated a cheating wife was raped?
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No. Guess I missed that one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PBear

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Don't think ole Steve is coming back.


Don't need the OP to come back. There's enough hypothesizing and theorizing to keep everyone going. Facts would only slow things down, and likely be much less interesting.

C


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## Entropy3000

barbados said:


> Some threads really strike a chord, don't they !


The thread should strike a chord. Look at the elements.

A wifes ONS

GNOs

Alcohol and medication

15 years.

Children

Coworkers

Hot guy

Moving from GNO to a house with three men including a coworker

Female coworkers leaving her there.

Obviously this man's wife was manipulated / seduced. 

She seemingly allowed herself to be seduced but we do not know whether her mind was fit to consent. Not a legal term in my case.

She passed out.

The friends did not call him.

he was watching the children.

She called at 5am.

Boundaries.

She aske him to wear a condom.


On and on. Without being religious the phrase "but for the grace of god there go I" is stuck in my head.

Look my wife has never done these types of GNOs. She is not a heavy drinker. But what if on just one occasion she decided to drink more than she could handle. I will tell you my wife is almost gone at two glasses of wine. What if my wife had then taken medication. What if the friends she was with did nothing to stop things. What if my wife was targeted. I want to think that this could never have happened to her but the reality we all should consider is that this could have happened to many of us. So while certainly my heart goes out to the OP this thread has a bigger message. It is heart wrenching.

This life style is toxic. It has no pace is a marriage. She only had sex. She could have been gang raped. I am not saying she was but she could have been in that house and brutally raped. If she was that far gone she could have been picked up by a crazy guy and hiddne in his freaking basement. Yeah yeah remote chance. More likely taken to an open field, raped and killed. But the thing is as much as many women say they can protect themseleves once they give up control to others they are actually not being faithful any longer to themselves or their marriage. There is nothing redeeming for a wife to be hitting the bars and playing with men.


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## Entropy3000

tacoma said:


> Here is the double standard I saw hidden in your posts the whole time.
> 
> The woman has no responsibility for anything because she was drunk but the man is still responsible for his actions no matter whether he's drunk or not.
> 
> The poor little woman can't be held accountable for her actions can she?
> She's JUST a woman.
> 
> I wonder how that defense would go over if she was busted for a DUI rather than infidelity?
> 
> Not only a hypocritical POV but humorously misogynistic as well.
> 
> Thank you for the entertainment


Not arguing your point. In fact just leveraging your post mostly.

But men and women are different here. Women still have the children. Women can more easily be over powered. Men have to have an erection to have PIV sex. A woman can be passed out and be violated. Or just incoherent. 

A woman can walk into a room full of guys and many of them would bed her in a heartbeat. A guy ... less so. There is this dynamic. 

Yes women seduce men.

So I can tell you that double standard aside that women and men are different here. Some the same.

But I will be the first to admit that I do have a double standard with this personally. Call it outdated thinking if people wish. A hsuband does not own his wife certainly. But willingly or not these men were complicit in this man's wife being taken in in a very humliating way. She should never have been at the bar ... at leasts that late. Half the women went home much earlier. So not defending their GNO but the hard core that stayed and prowled were off the reservation. They were winging it. This is what can happen. The wife is ultimately repsonsible. 

The OP did not deserve this. He loved her very much obviously. Wanted her to have some fun. He watched their kids. In hindsight he should see that he went along with her lifestyle a little too far. BUT, it sounds like this was not a common event. Common enough maybe. This evening for what ever reasons went very bad for him. Holy crap, with coworkers all around. So I usually beat on guys for enabling, but I am not feeling that here. Was he naive? Perhaps. Aren't we all much of the time? He trusted her. It seems now way too much.

This could have happened to many of us. My wife has travelled to conventions. I completely trusted her. She could have decided to push boundaries. Bad things could have happened. Especially with peer pressure. I don't believe it ever has. But how would I really know? My wife has had tremendous freedom. Why shouldn't she? So all I am saying is that I cannot really fault the OP too much in the enablement for allowing this. Not this time. He had a false sense of security witn the coworkers. His other sin? He trusted his wife to not put herself in the middle of this. I drifted way out. I am just saying that I am going to keep my diuble standard for this. A women is penetrated. Should that matter? I don't know. I guess it does for me. These guys got a real rush out of what they did no doubt.

Now I can absolutely see that men should not carry all of the responsibilty here for sure. She may have planned this in her own way. There may be history here. Not the first time she met this guy perhaps. I do have a problem with a guy banging someone elses wife. Not a leagl issue per se. Just me. Not in MY moral code.


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## Entropy3000

PBear said:


> Don't need the OP to come back. There's enough hypothesizing and theorizing to keep everyone going. Facts would only slow things down, and likely be much less interesting.
> 
> C


The purpose of the forum is to help folks with their specific situation.

I however also see great beneift in this debate. We get to explore the different feelings on these things. This helps the rest of us. 

Maybe not the place to do so. But with the changing culture I am happy to see other peoples views here. They could even change my mind ....


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## Squeakr

I think the purpose of this forum is to not only help and to openly discuss infidelity issues but it is also here top give people a place to air their story and viewpoints (and hopefully not be judged) and just be heard. It is not all about just getting the help, but knowing that you are not alone and other people are experiencing similar issues.


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## dusty4

chapparal said:


> I think anyone that has seen what tranquilizers mixed with alcohol will do to a person would see this in a different light.


I understand that. But as a married woman, she is expected to act like one. 

So, apparently there are some here that think Steve should just dismiss her partying and winding up at this guy's place after hours.

Ok, then if he stays with her, I think he is justified in setting a boundary that she no longer goes out and parties or goes to clubs. She is married.


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## Suspecting

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Right back at ya, we all have opinions. Some can handle disagreements others can't. Me and JCD disagree on a point, he isn't forcing me or getting angry because I don't see it his way. I know I'm not mad at him.
> 
> It is a talking point like everything else in this thread.


I'm not angry or upset, I'm actually laughing at all this. 7 posts from the OP and here you guys go on and on trying to analyze everything I post. You know, it is possible to disagree without trying to invalidate other's opinions. Go on.


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## PBear

Entropy3000 said:


> The purpose of the forum is to help folks with their specific situation.
> 
> I however also see great beneift in this debate. We get to explore the different feelings on these things. This helps the rest of us.
> 
> Maybe not the place to do so. But with the changing culture I am happy to see other peoples views here. They could even change my mind ....


The problem is that the original poster's situation (and facts around the situation) get drowned out by so many people trying to be "right" about their point of view. So many "what if's" and analogies get thrown around that nobody knows anymore what actually happened, unless they pick through the 417 posts to find the OP's 7 postings.

C


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## Squeakr

PBear said:


> The problem is that the original poster's situation (and facts around the situation) get drowned out by so many people trying to be "right" about their point of view. So many "what if's" and analogies get thrown around that nobody knows anymore what actually happened, unless they pick through the 417 posts to find the OP's 7 postings.
> 
> C


And even then they were still what ifs as the OP isn't sure about the information he is getting from the people that were there and his wife.


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## phillybeffandswiss

You know what? Sorry to everyone for being childish. I am out. What I will say is this, both sides are no longer helping. 

Speculating that she is highly promiscuous, with limited information, is hurtful to the spouse.
Speculating that she was raped, with limited information, is hurtful to the spouse.

Both are terrible things to have mind movies about and I'm not going to contribute to his pain any further.


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## Entropy3000

dusty4 said:


> I understand that. But as a married woman, she is expected to act like one.
> 
> So, apparently there are some here that think Steve should just dismiss her partying and winding up at this guy's place after hours.
> 
> Ok, then if he stays with her, I think he is justified in setting a boundary that she no longer goes out and parties or goes to clubs. She is married.


Just to be clear, I would not be able to recover from this. This would destroy me.

But I would be very upset with the people involved.
Very upset. I cannot elaborate on this forum.


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## Entropy3000

Will Kane nailed it.

This is where I am at on all of this.


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## Chaparral

The only reason I would consider R is because of the effects of booze mixed with tranqs. However, I would not have a partner that went on GNOs. Isaw to much of that, in person, before I was married. From my experinces, I would not trust Mother Theresa out drinking surrounded by nuns.
If I were Steve , I would have to know why and how often she has been mixing drugs and alcohol. If it ever happened again I would be gone.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

If th OP where a "troll", I think with all these posts, the urge would be too overwhelming to not keep posting.

The way he discribed his wife(through his eyes, I know), this was out of character for her.

I have to wonder if she's had something going on for a while now. She got to comfortable in here affair, or ONS's and got real drunk, did what she'd been getting away with for so long, fell asleep, get's bagged by the OP/OP's freind.

I also wonder if OP found that "iceberg" and he now doesn't want to post it here because, lets face it, some of us can be pretty hard on a BS that ignores what we have to say about there being more to it, then there is.

I do feel bad for this guy. I hope he gets through this ok.


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## Bonnie

I have been told that every man will cheat once in his marriage. I hope that is not true. You been together for a while. It was a very bad decision on her part. How old is she? is she going through some getting old thing like mid life crisis? If your able to forgive her, then forgive, but keep your eyes open, I know that sucks. My dad told me you will really know somebody completely....Maybe he was giving her some attention she wanted, made her feel good. I go on girls nights, and my husband gets bothered by it, and nothing good really ever comes out of it....really....so I am probably not going to do that anymore.you may never ever really get over it, but can you live with it and continue with her? that is up to you. How does she treat you? is she good to you? Is she there for you when you need her? temptation got the best of her. best of luck to you.


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## Bonnie

Bonnie said:


> My dad told me you will really know somebody completely...


mistake. My dad told me You will NEVER really know someone.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Bonnie said:


> *I have been told that every man will cheat once in his marriage. I hope that is not true. *You been together for a while. It was a very bad decision on her part. How old is she? is she going through some getting old thing like mid life crisis? If your able to forgive her, then forgive, but keep your eyes open, I know that sucks. My dad told me you will really know somebody completely....Maybe he was giving her some attention she wanted, made her feel good. I go on girls nights, and my husband gets bothered by it, and nothing good really ever comes out of it....really....so I am probably not going to do that anymore.you may never ever really get over it, but can you live with it and continue with her? that is up to you. How does she treat you? is she good to you? Is she there for you when you need her? temptation got the best of her. best of luck to you.


No, this isn't true at all.


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## Toffer

Since the OP hasn't been back (can't say that I blame him) its probably best to consider this thread dead
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## weightlifter

Bonnie said:


> I have been told that every man will cheat once in his marriage. I hope that is not true. You been together for a while. It was a very bad decision on her part. How old is she? is she going through some getting old thing like mid life crisis? If your able to forgive her, then forgive, but keep your eyes open, I know that sucks. My dad told me you will really know somebody completely....Maybe he was giving her some attention she wanted, made her feel good. I go on girls nights, and my husband gets bothered by it, and nothing good really ever comes out of it....really....so I am probably not going to do that anymore.you may never ever really get over it, but can you live with it and continue with her? that is up to you. How does she treat you? is she good to you? Is she there for you when you need her? temptation got the best of her. best of luck to you.


Not true. I have not touched a female on any of the fun parts, lip kissed, sexted, sent even immodest pics to, fvcked, given or received oral or manual sex. I have not even come close nor have I tried since the day I asked for exclusivity. I am 46 now.


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## MrK

This thread will explode if the OP ever comes back


----------

