# Doubts about marriage



## Dreary (Aug 25, 2021)

I'm a rather driven and motivated person, my fiancee isn't. I do have high but realistic expectations for our future, in terms of career success, the kind of house we live in, retirement at around 55, even with kids (though we're still open to not having any). 

We're in our early 30s, i'm financially way more ahead than she is, but I'm in the midst of a career switch which is leading to more uncertainty. While I'm constantly pushing myself to advance in my career, and making investment plans, i feel she isn't contributing much, she's stagnating at her job, and not trying to do anything about it. She's not good with chores and i agreed to do more next time.

We've hit a rough patch last year, where we had fights over other issues (in which we both were responsible for), and she bailed on the relationship several times, and I had to salvage it by convincing her to work on the issues together. We ironed out our issues through counselling. I used to argue about how I was always the one trying to make things work in all aspects, but she would disagree and dismiss my perspective, but now she's more open to listening.

I've reiterated about how she's not contributing with the financial and career planning and stuff a few months back, she said she would try to be a better fiancee, but I dont see her making the effort, or even initiating concersations about it.

So after counselling and we fought less, we decided to proceed with marriage at the end of this year, actually we got engaged before we ran into the relationship problems, so we're just getting back on track with the original plan. I'm having doubts now, i don't trust that i can count on her, i think i will have to shoulder a lot of things in the future, and i'm worried that i won't be happy because of that. But we've already booked the wedding venue, got the rings and stuff. I'm really not sure what to do, and on top of that im quite exhausted from the career transition, the trauma from the relationship problems (though its much better now) etc..

Wonder if anyone has been through similar situations and hope to get some advice. Thanks in advance.


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## D0nnivain (Mar 13, 2021)

I'm not optimistic about this. You seem to have very different goals & work ethics. I don't know how that plays out in the long run. 

However the idea that if you have kids now & still hope to retire in about 25 years when you are 55 doesn't compute. Kids are expensive.


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## Trident (May 23, 2018)

Has anyone been through it??

At least 50 percent of marriages end in divorce and many of the remaining non-divorced couples are going through it (they are only together due to finances, fear, the kids, etc).

Marriage is a questionable decision at best, when you've got one partner doing all the heavy lifting it's a recipe for disaster- but only for the partner who has the most to lose.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

So you want a wife who prioritizes her career? What I’m going to say will sound very old fashion but you’re the man. You will be expected to be the main breadwinner. Very few women will want to be all rah, rah about their careers. If all you want is a big bank account and material possessions, then find yourself one of those women that want to “lean in.” Just don’t cry when you find that such a woman is cold and calculating, and willing to replace you when the next bigger better deal comes along.


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## Trident (May 23, 2018)

jsmart said:


> So you want a wife who prioritizes her career?


Sounds like he's looking for a wife who isn't a lazy parasite.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Oh how times have changed. 

Just a handful of decades ago people would have been shocked if a man expected his wife to pursue a demanding career or contribute to financial planning of the household. 

And many a woman would have been offended and even question the motives of a man insistent on her providing an income. 

It wasn’t until my lifetime that many banks and credit companies and other financial institutions even allowed married women to have their own bank accounts and credit cards etc. 

That being said however, in today’s day and age, I think you are being smart and are right to be concerned and to question the wisdom of going through with this marriage.

If she is financially complacent and not motivated to contribute financially, not only will it be an ongoing point of contention and conflict in the relationship, But you will constantly bailing out her credit debt and over spending. 

And more importantly, in the 50% likelihood of a divorce, She will be taking at least 50% of the marital assets including your retirement (that you were paying for) and she may be entitled to continued spousal support.

In other words, YOU will be the paying for both the marriage as well as paying for the divorce (which statistically speaking, she will be 70% likely to be the one filing for).


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Trident said:


> Sounds like he's looking for a wife who isn't a lazy parasite.


She works full time so how is that lazy?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I also want to add that dating is not just about fun Saturday dates out on the town and BJs in the parking lot of a particularly fun date.

But rather dating is the serious business of mate selection and an interview and probationary period where we get to know someone through a variety of life experiences in order to determine if they are the right match for us or not. 

Financial competence and compatibility should be a major part of that determination process and any red flags in the financial department need to be critically analyzed and addressed.

This IS valid show-stopper.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Dreary said:


> But we've already booked the wedding venue, got the rings and stuff.


*This is not a reason to marry.* 


Dreary said:


> she bailed on the relationship several times,


Can you expand a little on this part? What was said? 

Do you know what her point of view on all this is? What would she say if she was here?


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

Typically, the relationship is at strongest during the engagement period. I that kind of tells you where you are at.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

You are a person who wants their whole life mapped out and she isn't. Hard to see how you can be compatible. 

A word of advise, it's rarely a good idea to map out your life in detail because unexpected things will happen and change everything.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Dreary said:


> We've hit a rough patch last year, where we had fights over other issues (in which we both were responsible for), and she bailed on the relationship several times, and I had to salvage it by convincing her to work on the issues together.


Let’s put financial compatibility and ambition aside for a moment and address this above. 

Why were you salvaging a relationship and having to “convince” someone to address issues with a person that didn’t want to be in a relationship with you???

This indicates there are some organic issues in the relationship besides her not shooting for an office in the executive suite.

The thing you need to be concerned with here is she has shown a tendency to fly the coop when things get rough and you have to ‘convince’ her to be with you. 

Statistically about 50% of marriages end in divorce and of those divorces 70% are initiated by women. 

She has already shown that she is willing to end the relationship when things aren’t going swimmingly requiring you to do the heavy lifting to reel her back into the relationship. 

Are you sure this is where you want to be?


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## sideways (Apr 12, 2016)

It's obviously a point of contention for you. I wouldn't follow through marrying her as I don't see this playing out the way that you would like.

Better to lose a venue Deposit etc than to wind up going through a divorce and the potential $$ involved. 

As Eddie Murphy joked about "HALF"!!


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Dreary said:


> I'm a rather driven and motivated person, my fiancee isn't. I do have high but realistic expectations for our future, in terms of career success, the kind of house we live in, retirement at around 55, even with kids (though we're still open to not having any).
> 
> We're in our early 30s, i'm financially way more ahead than she is, but I'm in the midst of a career switch which is leading to more uncertainty. While I'm constantly pushing myself to advance in my career, and making investment plans, i feel she isn't contributing much, she's stagnating at her job, and not trying to do anything about it. She's not good with chores and i agreed to do more next time.
> 
> ...


Describe the trauma.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Count mine as another vote for this not looking like an easy marriage for you both. You're very different, and if you're already feeling like you're compromising (not your words, my read), it's only going to get harder and you'll only feel more resentful. 

Are there positive qualities about her and your relationship that you're afraid to say goodbye to?


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

OP I don't think you two are having the same vision for life and marriage. I don't think either is wrong but I do think they are imcompatible.

Many women or I should say people cause I know plenty of men who are like your fiancee and they aren't trying to find the next job or advance in the one they have. They may or may not be motivated to retire early. I save a bunch because I'd like to retire by 58. But I do go through patches with my spouse where it's like maybe we should spend some now because at 59 we might not be healthy enough to hike in Denali Park with steep ascents. Money is only good if it makes you happy. You are looking for lots of money and early retirement. She might not want to be in a career or job that has the kind of pressure that comes with better pay. I can tell you I left a very high paying career field to become a teacher in Florida (ranks 50th in teacher pay). But I enjoy my job. I help kids. It's also very time consuming and I spend my own money often to make it work. It is more rewarding than my last job as an civil engineer. Other people just want to veg.

My husband doesn't pay attention to money. We make it work. 

I don't know what your rought patch was earlier this year. But perhaps she is having some of the same reservations about compatibility. 

Could you elaborate on what the earlier issues were?

Also sure you came here for your 'problem' please reread your intro. You had nothing good to say about your fiancee. This speaks volumes. Do you think all she hears from you is negative? Cause that will kill a woman's desire for you pretty dead and open up to affairs pretty quick. 

Also remember the bad stuff is easier to remember. You can say I love you 20 times and it will seem like platitudes to a woman if that morning you called her fat or lazy or stupid (or some words that mean the same but you think are 'nicer').


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## Skookaroo (Jul 12, 2021)

You can sell your wedding venue/date as well as the ring. Don’t fret over that. Do you want to be with this person long term? It sounds like no. If your relationship is this contentious during engagement, it likely will not improve after the wedding.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Yes in general it isn't a good idea marrying someone thinking you can change them into who you want them to be.

She doesn't fit your criteria.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

It sounds like you want to mould her into something, I can understand why she has left.

Better to find someone like what you’re wanting to turn her into, that’s much better than telling her what you want and expecting her to be that person.

Definitely don’t get married, she’s more suited to someone else. You sound ambitious and goal-focussed and driven, so I hope letting her go doesn’t turn into a competition where if you can’t have her the way she is, no-one else can. Let the girl go, she sounds just fine to me, and you’re ok too, you just need someone the same as you. Sometimes two opposites can work really well, but it never works when one person wants the other partner to be just like them.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

‘She would try to be a better fiancé’ what does this mean and what did the counsellor say, given all you really want is for her to earn more and chase a career?

What other qualities does she have? Your post seems really cold and clinical, do you like affection, sex, someone with maternal qualities? Do you want kids one day? How have you planned out family life when children come along, where does the career fit in with children?


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Dreary said:


> i feel she isn't contributing much, she's stagnating at her job, and not trying to do anything about it. *She's not good with chores and i agreed to do more next time. Why do more if you are already doing 1/2 and you don't feel she is contributing much?*
> 
> We've hit a rough patch last year, where we had fights over other issues (in which we both were responsible for), and *she bailed on the relationship several times*, and I had to salvage it by convincing her to work on the issues together. We ironed out our issues through counselling. I used to argue about how I was always the one trying to make things work in all aspects, but *she would disagree and dismiss my perspective, but now she's more open to listening*.*Out of curiosity what is her side? Did she say why she bailed? *
> 
> ...


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Just for reference is that a Singapore flag?


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

I'm the breadwinner in a house with a wife and two step kids and it can be brutally hard and stressful at times. When almost every financial responsibility is on your shoulders alone. Sometimes it's like you're facing off with a horde of barbarians and nobody is there to back you up. But it has it's rewards if you can hack it.

If you're already stressed out and talking about trauma before you've even got married and she's still working it's probably not for you though. Just wait till you have kids, your expenses skyrocket and she decides to quit and take care of them. You ain't seen nothing yet.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

If you were my fiance, I would simply tell you "This is me, this is who I am, take me or leave me". It would then be your right to pick the option you feel best for you,.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

_"Life is too serious.....love too mysterious"......_

Eh...here is my .02

I was/am a type A. driven person....I relentlessly invested and saved...Built and sold several companies, I did without all of the other things most people do in my position to assure that I could be financially independent by like age 50....I actually surpassed my original goal in that I could have retired in early mid 40's....I have gone decades without days off, let alone vacations...No...I am not kidding....

Here's the thing, though...

A lot of us types are seemingly never happy....I still work way harder than i need to...I don't even know why the hell I do it, really....While I may have more zero's on my ledger than a lot of other people, to be honest they enjoyed life a lot more than I did...

My point is maybe you need some balance...I don't know the other aspects of this woman, but maybe she will keep you grounded...keep you from becoming a donkey or a worker ant...Of course she may also be the type that will burden the hell out of you and whip you like a sled dog, so you need to vet this out...

One other thing to consider...Since I turned 50, an astounding number of my guy colleagues and friends have passed on...most died of heart attacks and strokes, no doubt in part due to carrying a heavy load and not taking care of themselves...You can plan to retire at 58 all you want, but what if you never make it?

I dunno...I guess all I am saying is that don't just think that you need someone that mirrors all of your life philosophies....Perhaps consider the fact that she may force you to create some balance...Take it from someone that never had much balance (I am working on that now)

Good luck


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

hamadryad said:


> You can plan to retire at 58 all you want, but what if you never make it?


This. My mom delayed gratification and never got it.

Anyway, with regards to the OP’s primary question what I find myself wondering when I read threads like this is why are you with her in the first place?

You’re not even married yet and you’re already in counseling so there must be something special there you’re trying to preserve. What is that? What’s great about this woman? Whatever it is, it’s not outweighing the negatives? It sounds like you’re on cruise control doing something you think you should be doing rather than what you actually want to do.

If you just want to save money, invest, and retire early the cheapest way to do that is to stay single and don’t even bother dating. My friends who did this all have sufficient investment income to retire now if they wanted to.

So why are you interested in marriage and kids? They get in the way of that big time.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

hamadryad said:


> _"Life is too serious.....love too mysterious"......_
> 
> Eh...here is my .02
> 
> ...


That sounds very sad and a lonely way to live… and very very good advice for a young man. You can never get those years back, and take it from a woman too, we don’t need a lot. We appreciate a man who works hard, and we don’t all need a flashy home, a wardrobe full of handbags and shoes. If she’s not driven now, but warm and loving, she’s not going to whip you for the shiny stuff. She will want nothing more than for you to see her. If she has these qualities, she can stand back and support you in your career, help you thrive.

I reached the peak of my career at only 27, I was driven and highly ambitious, but it was a cold cold time at night, I was a cold woman. Balance is key.


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## Dreary (Aug 25, 2021)

I wasn't expecting so many replies, but I'm really grateful to hear so many of your perspectives from different angles. I really appreciate it, thank you.

First and foremost, I'm sorry if everything was so negative and critical, it was past midnight, and I was trying to cover all of the points which I was trying to make, and it was already a really lengthy post. 

The relationship issues which we have resolved is another huge topic, which honestly brings back a lot of unpleasant memories so I wouldn't wish to re-open the discussion again... But basically, fights always start from how we have differing perspectives on something, usually neither is wrong, I get angry, usually imploding and ignoring her because she doesn't seem to understand, she gets hurt (emotionally, not physically, just to be very clear) and cries, and I always end up being responsible and blamed for it, then I feel maligned and stuff, because hey, while she has her perspective, I have my reasons too. We broke up several times, but I was always the one to try and fix things. Anyway counselling helped and the way forward really is better communication, listening, understanding, and management of expectations. 

There are positive aspects to our relationship, we're very happy together most of the time, we hardly fight anymore, because we understand each other better now after the ordeal. Compatibility is subjective, opposites see and do things differently, but they do complement each other precisely because of that. I'm always planning the finances, doing the math, while she plans the fun dates, restaurant bookings and stuff. I feel that I'm always the one initiating the difficult conversations, about how we intend to split the finances, how to move forward in our relationship. Last year I prodded her to plan her investments, which she did. Recently, I've been asking her to think more deeply about her career progression, because she seems to be stagnating at work, she's unhappy about it, but not doing much to resolve it. 

I really don't mind being the main breadwinner, that's how it is currently, and it's unlikely to change. I have a rough idea of what I hope to achieve with her financially. I've shared it with her, it's realistic, I might be able to achieve it without her support, but I think it would be a stretch, and it kind of stresses me out. Retiring at 55 is just a very crude estimate, it was just a sanity check to determine if my ambitions were realistic. I wouldn't say I NEED to map out the whole journey ahead of me, and I agree that it's unrealistic, but I do like to, and need to have a rough visual of where I'm heading.

She's actually really frugal, and no she doesn't have any credit card debt. But as it stands now, I'm settling 100% of the mortgage, which doesn't feel right. Close to two months ago, I've asked her to think about how she much wants to contribute financially, whether it's for the house, for kids if we have any, for expenses. I've already shared with her my expectations of what to achieve, I feel that she has to for once, take the initiative, to think about what she wants to achieve and do the math for herself, and determine how much she can, and aims to contribute. But first of all, she needs to decide what her career plan is. All I know is that she wants to go to work so that she doesn't become a stay at home mum who does chores for life. Till now, she hasn't spoken to me anything about it, what's her thoughts, what she's planning etc. Am I supposed to prod her, yet again? Rhetorical question probably, but why do I always have to be the one to initiate such discussions?

All in all, I just wish she were more effortful and proactive. I've mentioned it during the counselling several times. I'm probably going have to do most of the legwork in not just the planning, but also the problem solving in the future. The crux of the issue is balance, a term which some of you have raised, which seems off right now.


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

You need to have the discussion about raising children today. If you are not having children, there is no compelling reason to marry. As stated by others, marriage is no protection from divorce. Marriage is a legal contract and is no longer an indication of commitment. It wasn't always this way, but with the almost universal adoption of No-Fault ... it is today. Can you be flexible in your goals? Can she? I do all the financial planning for my wife and me. She likes to plan our vacations... Can you find a division of labor that works for both of you?


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## Dreary (Aug 25, 2021)

Jung_admirer said:


> You need to have the discussion about raising children today. If you are not having children, there is no compelling reason to marry. As stated by others, marriage is no protection from divorce. Marriage is a legal contract and is no longer an indication of commitment. It wasn't always this way, but with the almost universal adoption of No-Fault ... it is today. Can you be flexible in your goals? Can she? I do all the financial planning for my wife and me. She likes to plan our vacations... Can you find a division of labor that works for both of you?


In Asian culture, it is taboo to cohabit without getting married. I kind of want to do right by her family. I'm flexible in my goals, I don't know what hers are, I don't even know if she has thought about it. We haven't really divided the labor yet because the house is still under construction, and we have no kids yet, it's all a huge question mark. It might turn out well but I'm just don't feel confident that she'll pull her weight. I could be worrying too much, but gut feelings can be accurate too. It is... confusing.


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## uwe.blab (May 2, 2019)

Trident said:


> Sounds like he's looking for a wife who isn't a lazy parasite.


Sounds like he wants a wife who makes more money. Sounds like this as all financial, which is fine if that is what he wants. Find a partner who wants, more than anything, to be wealthy and "successful".


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I dunno man. It’s an alien concept to me to be shaking a woman down to pay for things. Call me old. Call me a traditionalist. I don’t care…

I never have and never will be asking my wife for money for things. She asks me for money and I prefer it that way. I never say no unless I am flat broke.


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## Trident (May 23, 2018)

ccpowerslave said:


> She asks me for money and I prefer it that way. I never say no unless I am flat broke.


Why does your wife have to ASK you for money??? 

The money belongs to both of you- equally. Regardless of who earns it.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Trident said:


> Why does your wife have to ASK you for money???
> 
> The money belongs to both of you- equally. Regardless of who earns it.


She’s being nice. Generally if you want to buy something expensive you ask the other person. Hey honey I want to buy a $5k guitar I will ask her if it’s ok. I’m not asking her for the money. With that said, she knows I’m earning most of the money so she is a bit more cautious before spending a large chunk than I am.


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

Dreary said:


> I'm a rather driven and motivated person, my fiancee isn't. I do have high but realistic expectations for our future, in terms of career success, the kind of house we live in, retirement at around 55, even with kids (though we're still open to not having any).
> 
> We're in our early 30s, i'm financially way more ahead than she is, but I'm in the midst of a career switch which is leading to more uncertainty. While I'm constantly pushing myself to advance in my career, and making investment plans, i feel she isn't contributing much, she's stagnating at her job, and not trying to do anything about it. She's not good with chores and i agreed to do more next time.
> 
> ...


I think it's good you realized this now. I think you should call it off. I only say this because for whatever reason, when you get married, the problems you have now will only increase, and pressures from daily life will exacerbate any issues you already have, leading to resentment.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Dreary said:


> I wasn't expecting so many replies, but I'm really grateful to hear so many of your perspectives from different angles. I really appreciate it, thank you.
> 
> First and foremost, I'm sorry if everything was so negative and critical, it was past midnight, and I was trying to cover all of the points which I was trying to make, and it was already a really lengthy post.
> 
> ...


This sounds like more of a parent/child relationship. Chicks may like having guys make good money to provide security and trinkets for them and they may even have sex with you for awhile to get that security and those trinkets.

But unless chicks are really disordered, they are not attracted to or desire their father and you may very well be one of these one of these guys on here that haven’t had sex in 2 years.

And how attracted will you be to a woman that you feel is like a child?? That would be real creepy. 

The way you write, you make it sound like you have basically browbeat her into remaining in the relationship with you.

Is that where you really want to be?


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Trident said:


> Why does your wife have to ASK you for money???
> 
> The money belongs to both of you- equally. Regardless of who earns it.


Thought about this more. She expects me to keep a certain level of income. My expectation for her is zero level of income. If she chooses to earn income, great (she does) but I don’t really care and I’m not going to outline career plans for her or ask her for cash.

Does that make sense?


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

You're probably attracted to her in the first place because she's a feminine woman. A lot of feminine women have feminine mindsets about money and work. They don't think like you do about it. That's why you have to nag and push her. But you can't have it both ways. You're not going to be able to talk that feminine woman into thinking like your male self does, just about money. 

For me, the intimacy I share with my wife is way more valuable than retiring early. Not even a competition. I wouldn't trade it for 100 million dollars. My life with her is my priority. But that's me. 

If money is the priority for you don't marry her. Because once you do your desires in that area take a back seat to what the family needs. Whether she gets pregnant, someone gets sick, you have a special needs child or a divorce, there's a million ways getting married can keep you poorer than you'd prefer. And you have to understand and be comfortable with that going in. Which you don't seem to be. At least with this particular woman.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

You need to bail. The ring and venue are sunk costs. You will more than make that up later by not having her around. Plus, as you progress your value will rise and you'll be able to attract more/better options than you do now. If you marry her, you will regret it and you definitely will PAY for it.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Trident said:


> Why does your wife have to ASK you for money???
> 
> *The money belongs to both of you- equally. Regardless of who earns it*.


While what you are saying is technically true, if one spouse makes way more(or maybe all) of the money coming in, its just natural for the other person to politely ask for it...And if they treated it as though it was just their money that they earned, then they will and rightfully so, get some resentment from the other person..

That was the case for me....I left money and no one needed permission to take it, but mostly they did ask or at least tell me why they took it.....

In most of these cases, including mine, no one is keeping score, but it's just being a decent and considerate person...


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## Trident (May 23, 2018)

hamadryad said:


> While what you are saying is technically true, if one spouse makes way more(or maybe all) of the money coming in, its just natural for the other person to politely ask for it...


It's not natural at all. A marriage is a financial contract, there is no his or hers.

It's not natural for the guy to go and buy anything he wants, while wife has to ask for permission to buy jewelery, or personal items or whatever. Especially if she's a stay at home mom- her career is raising the kids so dad can earn income for the entire family.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Trident said:


> It's not natural at all. A marriage is a financial contract, there is no his or hers.
> 
> It's not natural for the guy to go and buy anything he wants, while wife has to ask for permission to buy jewelery, or personal items or whatever. Especially if she's a stay at home mom- her career is raising the kids so dad can earn income for the entire family.


I agree with this, both sides should inform for unusual/large purchases.

In this case the OP is shaking his maybe wife down.

I can’t imagine ever going to my wife, “Hey honey, you’re not advancing in your career fast enough and you don’t bring home enough cheddar; how about you X, Y, and Z?”

First off, I don’t want to be the guy who shakes his wife down for money. I want to be the man. I want her to shake me down for money and tell me if she thinks I’m not hitting my earning potential. She doesn’t because I handle my business. I have had opportunities in the past where I would have maybe liked the work better but made less money, I ran the numbers by her and if she had really objected I wouldn’t have done those things. I have my weight to pull and she is a 50-50 partner.

She has the same type of consideration obviously and I always tell her to do whatever she wants (including not work) because I don’t care and it’s not part of what I expect from her.

That’s part of what I bring to the marriage is that earning potential and I protect that with life insurance and such so if something happens she’s not going to have issues. I like doing it and it makes me feel happy.

So maybe I agree that the OP really isn’t compatible here. I know with my wife if I did shake her down she’d be extremely angry because she wants a guy like me who doesn’t.


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## Trident (May 23, 2018)

ccpowerslave said:


> I want to be the man. I want her to shake me down for money


That's not being a man, that's being controlling.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Trident said:


> That's not being a man, that's being controlling.


Who is controlling in that case, her? I don’t feel controlled, I feel like I’m living up to my traditional gender role.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

I don’t know what to say, you keep repeating that you want her to advance in her career and make more money and be driven. She’s ‘trying to be a better fiancé’ but you also won’t really let her leave, it seems she’s tried to leave but you’re pushing for the marriage. You know it’s not going to happen she is NOT interested in a career! But you’re still keeping her around because you want the marriage to go ahead. Why? And why?? You didn’t really answer the question of how kids are going to fit into the mix?

Look, you’ve got some really important goals and great ambition and drive. Use that to find a business partner? You could do exceptionally well here, I’m sure, and even retire at 40! And then consider marriage? 40 for a man isn’t old. And a bonus is that you won’t have to share all that money with a wife or kids. You get to keep it for yourself and THEN retire even earlier. And then get married. There’s nothing wrong with you, and there’s nothing wrong with her. I can see her in a different role and doing well, but I just can’t see you being a husband and father with this woman. Come on, cancel the wedding already, don’t do this. Don’t drag humans along for the goal.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Also the kids thing should be 'settled' either BOTH people want them or one doesn't. IT isn't a we might have them. She is like 30 she has to decide if she is going to have kids. Has she agreed with your assessment to maybe not have kids because it might effect your early retirement?


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## ElwoodPDowd (Aug 25, 2021)

Trident said:


> Why does your wife have to ASK you for money???
> The money belongs to both of you- equally. Regardless of who earns it.


Money belongs to the person that earned it.
If she wants money she should get a job.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

I think you need to decide if you want a wife or a business partner.

If she is working and contributing, I don’t think you have a reasonable complaint on the financial side. 
If you’re expecting her to be some dynamic career climber, contributing equally or even close to equally to your financial security - you’re setting yourself (and her) up for failure. If she’s driven, cool. But many women don’t want that much responsibility and external expectations put on them to be a financial powerhouse career climber.

And what if you do have kids? Will you expect her to keep working full-time and keep crushing it at work to contribute heavily financially, while simultaneously being a dedicated mother and wife?


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Trident said:


> It's not natural at all. A marriage is a financial contract, there is no his or hers.
> 
> It's not natural for the guy to go and buy anything he wants, while wife has to ask for permission to buy jewelery, or personal items or whatever. Especially if she's a stay at home mom- her career is raising the kids so dad can earn income for the entire family.



Is it "natural" for the primary earner of practically ALL money coming in to drive a 15 year old ratty pickup truck while the spouse rolls around in a new Land Rover?

is it "natural" for a woman to force a guy to sell his old classic car he loves so that she can have an inground pool, that he neither wants or has the time to enjoy?

And is it "natural" for her to have the last word on all the decisions on what house to buy, where it is going to be, how it is going to be furnished, etc?

Is it natural for that guy to spend 10 bucks on barber shop trim job, (if he has any hair left) while she spends thousands a year in salons and spas?

..Let me know about how "natural" those things are, because I just about laid out the terms of practically every guy I have known in my circle of men, including my male cousins...

Perhaps you see it as "not natural", while they are smart enough to see it as not kicking him in the balls for being such a putz....


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

You gotta add different men to your mix of friends, that’s an angry bitter bunch, much like the OP, and he’s not even married yet. Already a self-fulfilling prophecy. That’s just being a martyr by playing poor and then being sad about it. Don’t get the $10 haircut, I’ll say! Especially if you’ve got the money for the Land Rover! That’s not natural or sensible.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Luckylucky said:


> You gotta add different men to your mix of friends, that’s an angry bitter bunch, much like the OP, and he’s not even married yet. Already a self-fulfilling prophecy. That’s just being a martyr by playing poor and then being sad about it. Don’t get the $10 haircut, I’ll say! Especially if you’ve got the money for the Land Rover! That’s not natural or sensible.



Maybe you got dropped on your head or something or it's the fact that you live in another part of the planet, but in case you didn't understand, most men do* a lot* for women, even when they don't have to.....and the one's of my particular generation and circle are just this way....They are hard workers and big time providers.....And put their own needs last.....always....

I never said anything about being angry and bitter about it, that's your interpretation....The only point I was making was the women that are in these relationships generally don't treat it as it's their absolute right merely for no more reason then they have a marriage document and a pvssy, as the other poster suggested....They are cagey enough to not bite the hand that is feeding them..


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

ccpowerslave said:


> First off, I don’t want to be the guy who shakes his wife down for money


😂 I don't know why I find this so funny. I guess it's the visual of you holding her in the air by the ankles and shaking the loose change out of her pockets.

It's good for couples to have goals and plan on how to achieve them. However, the saying men make plans and God laughs comes to mind. It is disrespectful to expect your spouse to give up a job they enjoy just because you want more bucks. If the OP wants more money, he can get a second job. 

It seems the two have different values and it would be wise to seriously reconsider matrimony.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Blondilocks said:


> It is disrespectful to expect your spouse to give up a job they enjoy just because you want more bucks. If the OP wants more money, he can get a second job.


Maybe. I mean if your spouse wants to seriously downgrade to the point where the lifestyle of the house as a whole would be an issue then yeah that’s worth discussing carefully.

I’m kind of with @hamadryad a few posts ago. 

My wife has wanted some expensive stuff and if I didn’t feel like spending cash on it I sold my own things to fund it. In fact I need to sell a few things now to replace cash I was saving she used for something else. It doesn’t bother me at all, if it did I would tell her. As long as I have the buffers that make me feel “comfortable” in our investment accounts I don’t care if she wants expensive stuff and generally I’d rather she has it than I have it.

It makes me happy that she has nice things and the stuff she wants, much more so than me having those things.


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## Trident (May 23, 2018)

hamadryad said:


> .Let me know about how "natural" those things are


Those aren’t natural or healthy relationships either. Your buddies are being treated like doormats.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Trident said:


> Those aren’t natural or healthy relationships either. Your buddies are being treated like doormats.



So....lemme see if I have this right,,,,

Guy does for his family and always puts himself last, but never complains=he's a doormat? 😂

He has what he basically needs and rather provide for his family and his kids.. He's doing it not because he is getting shyt on, because he is doing it out of free will..

Bear in mind these are some of the most Alpha and desirable men you will ever encounter....and most women dream of these types of men...but usually will never have what it takes to get one..

Sounds like you have lived life as a shut in....get out of the house some more..


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

hamadryad said:


> Bear in mind these are some of the most Alpha men you will ever encounter....and most women dream of these types of men...


Keeping your wife in style (as long as you can actually afford it) is a show of status. Vehicle(s), salon(s), vacations, house(s), jewelry, clothes and or bags, etc… all of these signal status to both sexes.

Aside from that, it’s alpha to do what you want, when you want, and be able to do it without losing a step.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

No argument....

But get a woman to think she is fully entitled to it by way of a marriage contract or body parts that every woman on the street has, without some level of humility is a sure fire way to assure that no decent man, Alpha or otherwise, will want any part of it....


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## Trident (May 23, 2018)

hamadryad said:


> Guy does for his family and always puts himself last, but never complains=he's a doormat? 😂
> 
> Bear in mind these are some of the most Alpha and desirable men you will ever encounter....and most women dream of these types of men...


A guy that lives his life like a slave while his wife spends all his hard earned cash on frivolous items is no alpha.

You can twist my words, incorrectly paraphrase me, give absurd and irrelevant examples of other dysfunctional relationships and throw cheap insults all you want. It does nothing to bolster your failed argument.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Trident said:


> A guy that lives his life like a slave while his wife spends all his hard earned cash on frivolous items is no alpha.
> 
> You can twist my words, incorrectly paraphrase me, give absurd and irrelevant examples of other dysfunctional relationships and throw cheap insults all you want. It does nothing to bolster your failed argument.


Your statements indicate that you wouldn't know an alpha from a alpaca...and probably never owned anything substantial enough to be able to share....

Go back and read what the other poster ccpowerslave stated...Maybe it will give you some idea of how this all works..


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## Trident (May 23, 2018)

hamadryad said:


> Your statements indicate that you wouldn't know an alpha from a alpaca...and probably never owned anything substantial enough to be able to share....
> 
> Go back and read what the other poster ccpowerslave stated...Maybe it will give you some idea of how this all works..


According to @hamadryad I don’t go out much if at all, I don’t understand women and I’m broke.

When you’ve got no real opinion and no facts and have no clue what you’re talking about, toss around cheap insults to the person who is the only one making sense. See how far that gets you.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

Trident said:


> According to @hamadryad I don’t go out much if at all, I don’t understand women and I’m broke.
> 
> When you’ve got no real opinion and no facts and have no clue what you’re talking about, toss around cheap insults to the person who is the only one making sense. See how far that gets you.


According to same poster, I was dropped on my head and from another planet. Ouch And that he wasn’t angry. (If that’s how you and your group respond it’s mean, and not desirable.)

Even though we both do agree men shouldn’t be allowing themselves to be treated like this. Lost my respect when you mention the p-word as something we use as a weapon.

I was in agreement that men do provide and it’s a courtesy to ask about a purchase. I sure do it whether I’m employed at the time or not. But if I had a husband who insisted I was decked out in nice things while dressing like a cheap slob, and then crying about it with the men he thinks are alphas - nothing is desirable about that scenario whatsoever. There is no need to sacrifice anymore when you can afford all the good stuff & still be having the cheap haircut so the wife goes with. My husband won’t be getting the cheap haircut, some of us with the Pee you zeD thing you mention do appreciate a man and show him other ways we’re grateful, like ‘No honey, I’m having the $10 cut this time’.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I think one of the big things you two need to talk about is if you're having kids, what is her intent at that time. She may be unconcerned about work progress because she doesn't intend to work after having kids or something like that. I mean it is hard to work if you have a series of kids and always have one under preK age at home. 

Sounds like finances are your biggest worry and concern in marriage, and certainly that isn't the case for her and won't be for a lot of women. But you could find one more ambitious, although it might be that if you did, there would be no kids and you'd both need to hire a maid.


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## Trident (May 23, 2018)

Luckylucky said:


> According to same poster, I was dropped on my head and from another planet


Clearly he's the type of guy that has no game so he attacks his adversary rather than whatever the topic is that's being debated (or argued).

People like that are impossible to deal with and communicate with.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Luckylucky said:


> But if I had a husband who insisted I was decked out in nice things while dressing like a cheap slob, and then crying about it with the men he thinks are alphas…


If you have to live beyond your means or live in poverty to achieve it, no good. Who said anything about insisting?

Anyway back to the OP, they’re not compatible.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

Trident said:


> Clearly he's the type of guy that has no game so he attacks his adversary rather than whatever the topic is that's being debated (or argued).
> 
> People like that are impossible to deal with and communicate with.


Angry about something. Which is the point I was trying to make, any gender who becomes that selfless but then gets bitter has to be sad. I mean, being forced to sell a truck to buy a pool - neither sex is desirable in a situation like this. It breeds rage and resentment. I see nothing desirable (we could only imagine to pull one of these men??) It’s a sad state, and I am concerned that OP is headed this way. Fiancé clearly has a job, and is contributing. How that’s going to fly when little people come along is something he’s not really considered. Maybe there’ll be nannies, who knows.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Trident said:


> According to @hamadryad I don’t go out much if at all, I don’t understand women and I’m broke.
> 
> When you’ve got no real opinion and no facts and have no clue what you’re talking about, toss around cheap insults to the person who is the only one making sense. See how far that gets you.



Making sense about what?

Proclaiming that a marriage contract _*entitled you to everything a spouse makes*_*...*

.And all along I thought you were a woman...Because I've never in my entire life ever heard a man make that type of a comment....Only women...


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

.


Luckylucky said:


> According to same poster, I was dropped on my head and from another planet. Ouch And that he wasn’t angry. (If that’s how you and your group respond it’s mean, and not desirable.)
> 
> Even though we both do agree men shouldn’t be allowing themselves to be treated like this. Lost my respect when you mention the p-word as something we use as a weapon.
> 
> I was in agreement that men do provide and it’s a courtesy to ask about a purchase. I sure do it whether I’m employed at the time or not. But if I had a husband who insisted I was decked out in nice things while dressing like a cheap slob, and then crying about it with the men he thinks are alphas - nothing is desirable about that scenario whatsoever. There is no need to sacrifice anymore when you can afford all the good stuff & still be having the cheap haircut so the wife goes with. My husband won’t be getting the cheap haircut, some of us with the Pee you zeD thing you mention do appreciate a man and show him other ways we’re grateful, like ‘No honey, I’m having the $10 cut this time’.


Again....you must have been dropped on your head....maybe a couple of times...

NOWHERE did I say I was bitter, angry, upset, or anything else....NOWHERE....

Find one shred of proof of that, (other than your horrible reading comprehension) to indicate that...

Let me spell it out for you as I would have done when my daughter was 10 years old..

A LOT of men, especially big earners, etc., provide huge for their wives and kids....They don't complain about it, the same way they don't complain about crap like not getting anything much for Christmas, Father's Day, or anything else...It's just what a lot of men do....Period...

For a lot of these men, they know it's important for their woman to have a say in house selection, drive the nicer car, etc, not because he is a doormat, but for no other reason than those things aren't what's important to him...He could do everything differently at any time, it's not important, so at that point its just a waste of money,.....

On the surface, sure it does seem unfair. but it just is what it is....Smart women that know how to handle these situations, maintain this lifestyle forever and everyone is happy....Women who think they earned a right to put their hand in his pocket at every turn because they are legally entitled to it, (as your buddy Trident contends), usually find out the hard way, when they they too get dropped on their heads, bought out in a divorce, and better dealed by a woman half her age....

See how simple it is.??


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## Trident (May 23, 2018)

hamadryad said:


> .And all along I thought you were a woman...Because I've never in my entire life ever heard a man make that type of a comment....Only women...


What you believe my gender to be has nothing to do with the topic being discussed.

Stating the other person must have been "dropped on their head" and "has poor reading comprehension" is more of the same nonsense babbled by a person who has nothing to add to the discussion so they resort to flinging elementary school insults.

He just can't help himself.



hamadryad said:


> NOWHERE did I say I was bitter, angry, upset, or anything else....NOWHERE....


You don't have to say it. Not surprisingly, you aren't even aware of it.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

OP, putting aside all the cultural differences on this thread, you and you partner don't seem very compatible to me. If you want a high achieving wife, you need to find a different person. She is not what you are looking for.


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## CookieRookie (Aug 29, 2021)

Dreary said:


> I'm a rather driven and motivated person, my fiancee isn't. I do have high but realistic expectations for our future, in terms of career success, the kind of house we live in, retirement at around 55, even with kids (though we're still open to not having any).
> 
> We're in our early 30s, i'm financially way more ahead than she is, but I'm in the midst of a career switch which is leading to more uncertainty. While I'm constantly pushing myself to advance in my career, and making investment plans, i feel she isn't contributing much, she's stagnating at her job, and not trying to do anything about it. She's not good with chores and i agreed to do more next time.
> 
> ...


Engagement is when the parties are supposed to be on their best behavior, and you two continue to have serious relationship conflict. She's already "bailed" several times on the relationship until you talked her back into it. Other issues aside, she is not a reliable partner and will not have your back. (She doesn't now.) Swallow your pride and break it off entirely, you both need to look for more compatible partners. Stop wasting your lives with each other due to inertia.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

hamadryad said:


> Maybe you got dropped on your head or something or it's the fact that you live in another part of the planet, but in case you didn't understand, most men do* a lot* for women, even when they don't have to.....and the one's of my particular generation and circle are just this way....They are hard workers and big time providers.....And put their own needs last.....always....
> 
> I never said anything about being angry and bitter about it, that's your interpretation....The only point I was making was the women that are in these relationships generally don't treat it as it's their absolute right merely for no more reason then they have a marriage document and a pvssy, as the other poster suggested....They are cagey enough to not bite the hand that is feeding them..


Whether men do a lot for women really depends on who the people are. And there's always a tradeoff and usually it's not one the women are crazy about (doing all the housework and/or childcare or sex on demand). Women I know have sometimes had to really oppose their mates to advance a career to get them out from under the mate's thumb. Right now one of them who had to do that (he didn't want her to work because he didn't want to participate in the nuts and bolts of family life) is now supporting him because he quit his job several months ago now. 

I certainly haven't lived in a world where men paid the bills since my childhood when my mom stayed home to raise kids and because it was normal at that time. As soon as I was old enough, she laid rubber going and getting herself a little retail job so she'd have some pocket change and could get out of the house. 

Not all women are even comfortable letting the man support her. That's a certain type of woman. 

That said, her goals are not your goals. She is not worried about it and all ambitious, and you are positively obsessed about those things. I can see why she's tried to leave. You should let her. I think you'll have a hard time finding someone who will take orders from you as to their career and finances.


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## married54yrs (Aug 27, 2021)

Dreary said:


> I'm a rather driven and motivated person, my fiancee isn't. I do have high but realistic expectations for our future, in terms of career success, the kind of house we live in, retirement at around 55, even with kids (though we're still open to not having any).
> 
> We're in our early 30s, i'm financially way more ahead than she is, but I'm in the midst of a career switch which is leading to more uncertainty. While I'm constantly pushing myself to advance in my career, and making investment plans, i feel she isn't contributing much, she's stagnating at her job, and not trying to do anything about it. She's not good with chores and i agreed to do more next time.
> 
> ...


Dear Dreary,
Like many others who have replied already, I doubt that this marriage will be what either one of you want. I hate to be negative, but most likely this marriage is not a good idea and will probably end in divorce. Best to cut both of your losses now and move on. Rings, venue, etc. are all very cheap when compared to the pain and cost of divorce. Just 'being in love' won't be enough. 

Now Dreary, I think there might be a bigger issue that should be addressed. Marriage is ultimately about two people sharing their lives and working toward unity as a married couple, not about the goals you talked about. Marriage is about loving, sharing, and sacrificing. Marriage has brought my wife and I more pain and suffering than we could have imagined way back when, but it has also brought more joy, happiness, and fulfillment than we could have imagined. You may need to re-evaluate your life's goals and ambitions. I wish you the best.


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