# Her way or the highway



## Just Wondering (Dec 20, 2011)

Have any of us ever wore out your welcome to talk about the sexual problems in marriage??? Has it ever been a subject that your partner says here we go again? And nothing ever changes or gets better??It just seems like my LD wife is so content with being the way she is,And not willing to change.And she does not what to hear about it anymore? I agree as well I am done talking about it to.But I want to fix it. She says leave it alone and maybe it will get better by it self. B. S. it will.So I leave it alone for days ,weeks, Guess what no better.Than I want to talk about what I just went thur and she says she does not what to talk about it again>


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I'm very familiar with this routine. Nothing ever changes, but you can't talk about it. The reason is because she doesn't want anything to change. So you are stuck. Accept the status quo, don't rock the boat and hope she decides on her own to change or keep bringing it up and increasingly begin to look like a whiny child begging for a cookie. Personally, I think the only answer is to let it go. It's up to her and you can't make her do anything.


----------



## bbdad (Feb 11, 2013)

That is because she doesn't have a problem and doesn't need to talk about it any longer. At least that is how my wife appears to view it. She claims the problem is all mine and that sex is not important. 1-4x per year is more than adequate for her and she thinks that is all anyone should ever want it. She claims anyone that wants a physical relationship more than that is a pervert and a sex addict.

So, you and I have to decide if we can live that way, or have to move on. I do not want to go through the financial and family destruction of divorce, so I live in my own private hell and do the best I can to be great for myself in other ways.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Here comes #3 in a long line of (mostly) guys telling you been there, done that. 

By now you know it isn't going to change. Letting go of it is the only sane course of action. In mismatched sexual relationships, sometimes the fighting is the only passion in the bedroom. Once you fully accept reality and let go, you might find that there's nothing left physically in the marriage.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Me bringing up her disinterest in sex was counterproductive for me. It made her feel guilty and inadequate. What I didn't fully realize is that she knew full well how long it had been, she wasn't happy about it, either. She already felt like an inadequate piece of crap. Me trying to talk to her about it repeatedly only made it worse. I got better results with her by not mentioning sex at all but engaging in other, apparently non-sexual touching (brushing her hair, giving her back rubs, etc) which often end up with sex.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

JW, are you one of those guys who refuses to leave divorce on the table? I mean, really, if you don't back up your complaints with action then what do you expect? Why should she change if all she sees is you complaining with her getting no consequence?


----------



## stevehowefan (Apr 3, 2013)

Bro, I've been there. Many of us have. One of the things (other than her coming off of birth control) that has worked for me is acting like I wasn't interested in "sex." I still have had my days since that day in late January when I lost my sh!t with her where it's been hard to act like I don't care to be intimate with her, but it's been easy some too. She's told me before that she's DEFINITELY not attracted to me when I sulk. It's hard not to sulk when you're feeling neglected. I guess in a way it's a reverse psychology.


----------



## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Do your best to improve yourself. Workout, run and eat better. Do things that might make her think "why is he doing that?" Chances are things will get better then you will slack up and things will go right back where they were. My wife is just like the OPs. Don't talk about it I'm fine with it.....but IM not fine with. It.


----------



## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Just Wondering said:


> Have any of us ever wore out your welcome to talk about the sexual problems in marriage??? Has it ever been a subject that your partner says here we go again? And nothing ever changes or gets better??It just seems like my LD wife is so content with being the way she is,And not willing to change.And she does not what to hear about it anymore? I agree as well I am done talking about it to.But I want to fix it. She says leave it alone and maybe it will get better by it self. B. S. it will.So I leave it alone for days ,weeks, Guess what no better.Than I want to talk about what I just went thur and she says she does not what to talk about it again>



This is a classic LD not changing, taking care of your needs, not caring, and its very selfish of her. But you, the HD, are compromising and trying everything under the sun. This is why I have little to no sympathy for LD spouses, unless its a medical condition.

If she truly loved you and your relationship together, she would be meeting your needs and some and you would already be doing the same for her.

As loving as my wifee is, she is the same way LD and unless I initiate and force the issue, sex on her own is minimal and she's happy with that.


----------



## eyuop (Apr 7, 2013)

Yup. Start totally working on improving yourself. This will actually increase your testosterone levels (working out, playing a sport, or learning a martial art, etc.), but it could also increase her interest in you. 

My wife is knockout-dead gorgeous (brunette, looks something like Megan Fox). She is 40 and looks 29. We've been married for 17 years. I'm on a route to totally improve myself (looks, dress, muscle tone, confidence, making more money, etc.). She is more LD than I am, but she isn't as LD as some (she is more a 2 to 3 times a week). I inherited my dad's raging sex drive (which unfortunately ended up with dozens of affair partners and ended his marriage). I could easily have sex twice a day no problem (I'm 41). I've always been this way ever since my rocks dropped , and I haven't slowed down at all.

I found that our love languages were different. Mine is physical affection, hers is verbal affirmation. She would deprive me of physical affection (she's not naturally very affectionate) just to slow my sex drive down (which backfired since I wanted sex more to also get the affection I needed, too). I would be critical and frustrated (verbally) and this squashed her love language (she needed affirmation and validation). This set up a crazy cycle that was a losing battle for both of us (but especially me -- way less sex).

You and your wife take the love language test (it is online for free -- google 5 love languages).

Work on using her love language. She will then feel compelled to work on yours. This could really help your situation.

Three things: Work on improving yourself, take the love language test, and do what you discover about your wife's love language.

Oh, and report back here if you feel so inclined...


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

bbdad said:


> That is because she doesn't have a problem and doesn't need to talk about it any longer. At least that is how my wife appears to view it. She claims the problem is all mine and that sex is not important. 1-4x per year is more than adequate for her and she thinks that is all anyone should ever want it. She claims anyone that wants a physical relationship more than that is a pervert and a sex addict.
> 
> So, you and I have to decide if we can live that way, or have to move on. I do not want to go through the financial and family destruction of divorce, so I live in my own private hell and do the best I can to be great for myself in other ways.


That's hell. Have you ever attempted to have her join you in maritial counseling? She can also reach you in ways that perhaps she thinks your insensitive about so both of you can gain ground.

If that 1 to 4 times a year sex is what she thinks normal should be, you might have to get her around some different groups of friends who have sex at a more acceptable level.


----------



## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Sex only 1 - 4x a year? 

Gotta love those LD spouses....


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

eyuop said:


> She is more LD than I am, but she isn't as LD as some (she is more a 2 to 3 times a week).


Understanding that the ol' LD/HD debate is always relationship specific, I think if we took a forum vote, we'd find that 2-3 times a week doesn't qualify for the label. Especially since, according to Kinsey, 2-3 times a week or less encompasses some 94% of all marriages for couples aged 30-39 and 96% of all marriages in their 40s.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Just Wondering said:


> Have any of us ever wore out your welcome to talk about the sexual problems in marriage??? Has it ever been a subject that your partner says here we go again? And nothing ever changes or gets better??It just seems like my LD wife is so content with being the way she is,And not willing to change.And she does not what to hear about it anymore? I agree as well I am done talking about it to.But I want to fix it. She says leave it alone and maybe it will get better by it self. B. S. it will.So I leave it alone for days ,weeks, Guess what no better.Than I want to talk about what I just went thur and she says she does not what to talk about it again>


My husband would periodically talk to me about his unhappiness with frequency of sex in our marriage. (We had sex about 1-3x per month). He was usually irritable and frustrated when he would bring it up, or it would come up tangentially if we were arguing about something else, which didn't help matters. I honestly didn't know what to do about it. I'd talked to my doctor and I'd gone to IC, but I was still LD. But my husband never gave up. The last time he talked to me about it, he seemed to approach it differently. He wasn't angry, we were not already in an argument. He told me how it was affecting him and he asked me to just spend some time THINKING about it, and about whether there was anything I could do to help him fix the situation. 

Nothing changed right away, but I started to mull things. The issue sort of stayed in my head. The more I thought about it, the more I thought about sex. The more I thought about sex, the more I: 1) Wanted to have sex and 2) thought about what lack of sex might be doing to my marriage. I started to want to figure it out. One day I googled "How do I make myself want sex." I ended up here at TAL and it made a huge, huge difference to read the stories of other LD/HD relationships. I realized more fully what sex meant to my husband. 

It's only been about six weeks, but we've had amazing sex most days since then. We've talked a lot about sex and intimacy in our marriage and how to not neglect it again. I used to be very HD, and I really have missed that part of myself. I'm happy it's back, but I also sort of feel like I can't take it for granted like I did when I was in my 20's.

I work on nurturing my HD myself almost every day. My husband seems to be working on himself, too. I try to be very, very clear in communicating with him about what enhances or kills my desire for sex, and he seems to be more open to understanding my needs. 

I do think that your wife has to want to change. She has to be willing to take a close look at her LD and see what might be causing it (assuming that she wasn't always LD. If she's always been LD, then there might not be anything to "fix.") I know I sometimes had underlying issues with just not feeling sexy and letting stress get the better of me. 

She also has to be willing to tell you what your role is in affecting her desire. She might find it easier to not turn those rocks over and instead just deal with your unhappiness with sex. For example, I figured we could ride out the bad sex life in our marriage, but that if I tried to tell my husband that I resent him for not addressing his depression we'd never get through that can of worms. 

But it's amazing what you can do when you reestablish intimacy. I found that I was finally able to broach my husband's depression BECAUSE we were intimate again, and he has agreed to address it, not because he agrees that he is depressed, but because his moods are affecting my desire. 

So it's been win-win: we have our HD/HD relationship back, and we are now able to move on to productively address other issues in our relationship. 

Don't give up. Give it a rest for awhile, then try asking her if she'd be willing to talk to you about sex again. Ask while you are holding hands or having a good time. Tell her you don't want to fight about it anymore. Tell her you know you have a role in her LD and you need her help in figuring it out. Make it something you are willing to solve together. Then give her some time. And the TAL URL. Then after some more time, ask her if you could set up a day and time to talk. Plan it, make it the focus of that time: no kids, no other distractions.


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> Me bringing up her disinterest in sex was counterproductive for me. It made her feel guilty and inadequate. What I didn't fully realize is that she knew full well how long it had been, she wasn't happy about it, either. She already felt like an inadequate piece of crap. Me trying to talk to her about it repeatedly only made it worse. I got better results with her by not mentioning sex at all but engaging in other, apparently non-sexual touching (brushing her hair, giving her back rubs, etc) which often end up with sex.


You can't talk her into it, and you cannot "nice" her into it. She has to want to do it.

Base and attraction techniques when you are already with someone is the path that has to be explored. MMSL with a bit more class... I also believe since you know that social proofing should "not" work, but it does work when peoples perceptions have been shaped - your going to have to use it.


----------



## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

How would you feel if you were in a relationship where every sexual urge and impulse you had was immediately taken care of by an eager expectant lover?....

What would you want to change about a love life like that?...

*That is your wife's love life*....*All* the sex she could ever want, *anytime* she wants it.......

Too bad for her "eager expectant lover" that only works out to 2-3 times a year........

That leaves you on the "*It sucks to be me*" line.....

It is all your fault....You must make yourself *BETTER*...

You must turn yourself into a combination of Brad Pitt, Fabio, and Michelangelo's David....

You must be more alpha than a boar grizzly in rut...

You must be more romantic than George Clooney....

You must give her endless hours of "togetherness" time. nude platonic massages, breakfasts in bed with rose petals......

A more than generous cash allowance..... 

Plenty of "Me" time...

You must read her mind for every emotional need, and fulfill them..

Help with the dishes, laundry and housework ....

And after you did all these things.....Do you think you would see any more action between the sheets?????

*HELL NO!!!!!*

She is a very happy LD woman, and there is little that can be done to FIX her......

However there is a post on "*general relationship discussion*" called "I took him for granted 2".......

It is a sad story about a young woman in a PERFECT marriage, (MUCH LIKE YOURS) who's husband kept telling her he wasn't happy with their sex life...

He is now getting his brains banged out by the same wife that wasn't interested in sex.........

GOOD LUCK
THE WOODCHUCK


----------



## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

I think, as a rule, women really don't like weak men. Men who beg for sex, whether by constantly hitting their wives up when they *KNOW* she isn't interested or by bringing the subject up over and over and over again, look weak and desperate. There is nothing sexy about that. Men who do this are just making the issue that much worse. 

There is next to nothing a man can do to make his LD wife want to have sex. That is the plain and simple truth. And the more you try, the less likely you are to succeed because by trying, you are acknowledging you want something from her. And that is a huge turnoff. LD women do not want to be bothered with constantly supplying your wants in that department. The more you ask, the more she will resent you for asking.
I gather that must suck for you HD guys, but that is just how it is.


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> I think, as a rule, women really don't like weak men. Men who beg for sex, whether by constantly hitting their wives up when they *KNOW* she isn't interested or by bringing the subject up over and over and over again, look weak and desperate. There is nothing sexy about that. Men who do this are just making the issue that much worse.
> 
> There is next to nothing a man can do to make his LD wife want to have sex. That is the plain and simple truth. And the more you try, the less likely you are to succeed because by trying, you are acknowledging you want something from her. And that is a huge turnoff. LD women do not want to be bothered with constantly supplying your wants in that department. The more you ask, the more she will resent you for asking.
> I gather that must suck for you HD guys, but that is just how it is.


That's real talk. It's like eating a Thanksgiving meal with all of the trimmings, then the next hour someone serves you another large meal. You're stuffed but the other person can eat all night with gusto. Then they get mad at you and say "gee, I wasted all of that time on these meals, don't you want to eat? Just a little .....pleeaassee! It's your favorite". Then you say, "but I just ate, please give me time to rest". The other person sulks and says, "I just want to show you my love, you don't love or appreciate me". Then, this same scenario will happen night after night ad nauseum. The sight of food begins to turn you off because you are offered so much of it. Then you don't want to eat anything, the other person wonders what's wrong, why don't you love them.

This is how my LD progressed, just exchange the food for sex. Loved it in the beginning, got tired of it as I was being pestered for it so much. This is not a bait and switch, it may look like it but it isn't. A normal drive person could turn LD with a HD partner who just won't let up. HDs turn bitter becuase the person does not have the gusto they used to. Maybe they are worn out. Checking hormones and sending them to the doctor just to get them to want as much as you is selfish, just find a dang hobby.
/LD rant

...waiting for the flames...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just_about_done (Feb 6, 2013)

Ok, let's turn that around. Imagine you are married to a man who only want's to eat once a week, AND you're not allowed to eat if he doesn't.

What's the solution?


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Relationships are complex things and the implications of ones actions are not always obvious.


----------



## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

But who is to say what the "right thing" is? Everyone is right in their own minds. The person trying to corner the other into doing the so called right thing is little more than a bully.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

I'm surprised nobody has said it yet:

The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011: Athol Kay: 9781460981733: Amazon.com: Books

Read it; run the MAP.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> But who is to say what the "right thing" is? Everyone is right in their own minds. The person trying to corner the other into doing the so called right thing is little more than a bully.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're right. The wife trying to force her husband to be celibate is nothing more than a bully.


----------



## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

techmom said:


> That's real talk. It's like eating a Thanksgiving meal with all of the trimmings, then the next hour someone serves you another large meal. You're stuffed but the other person can eat all night with gusto. Then they get mad at you and say "gee, I wasted all of that time on these meals, don't you want to eat? Just a little .....pleeaassee! It's your favorite". Then you say, "but I just ate, please give me time to rest". The other person sulks and says, "I just want to show you my love, you don't love or appreciate me". Then, this same scenario will happen night after night ad nauseum. The sight of food begins to turn you off because you are offered so much of it. Then you don't want to eat anything, the other person wonders what's wrong, why don't you love them.
> 
> This is how my LD progressed, just exchange the food for sex. Loved it in the beginning, got tired of it as I was being pestered for it so much. This is not a bait and switch, it may look like it but it isn't. A normal drive person could turn LD with a HD partner who just won't let up. HDs turn bitter becuase the person does not have the gusto they used to. Maybe they are worn out. Checking hormones and sending them to the doctor just to get them to want as much as you is selfish, just find a dang hobby.
> /LD rant
> ...



And hows that workin out for ya?????

the woodchuck


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> But who is to say what the "right thing" is? Everyone is right in their own minds. The person trying to corner the other into doing the so called right thing is little more than a bully.


How did the ancient Egyptians say it? "All is fair in love and war"?


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Before you lose too much sleep over her posts, read a few of them. And if you want any hope of fixing the problem, ignore her anti-hd stuff and go read itookhimforgranted's posts. That's where the solution lies.


----------



## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> Personally, I think the only answer is to let it go. It's up to her and you can't make her do anything.


At least three people in this thread have said he should "let it go" or just drop it. So you are telling the OP: "just accept your miserable life". Some advice!

How about this instead. How about either demanding couples counseling over this issue or you leave the marriage. She has her demands, you are allowed to have yours. Abandonment is grounds for divorce and abandoning you physically is no different than her walking away from the marriage; the only difference is that you are still providing a home and/or income for her, but I'm assuming that isn't all you signed up for. However you have to give her a fair chance - she has to know that this is a "deal breaker" for you.

It is true that you can't force a LD person to become HD, but marriage is often about compromise, and maybe, through counseling, you can find a happy medium point that you both can live with. Otherwise, maybe you will at least find out that the whole thing is hopeless and it's time to move on.


----------



## livelaughlovenow (Apr 23, 2012)

Women can change there is a combination factor, one the badgering has turned her off, two there are other aspects of the relationship missing and three, she has to feel the threat of you leaving or cheating. That combination did it for me. (Previous LD issues)... now however, I am dealing with the consquences of going so long ignoring his needs, he is now ignoring mine (I can only assume that is what is happening now) but this is what lead us down the path to begin with. Our relationship became stale, the drive for sex wasn't there, he spoke of it enough that i didn't even think about it... that is, until I feared he was having an emotional affair about to turn physical with another woman. I read, realized how many men cheat just for sex, didnt want that and started giving to him freely.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Au contraire, "anti-hd" posts are useful, almost as good as eavesdropping on a wives chat with her BFF.


----------



## CreekWalker (May 31, 2013)

My husband will give in to me...oh maybe every 4-6 weeks. He insists it is more often but it's not. 

He also does not want to talk about the lack of sex and intimacy. The last time I got it in my head to get him to talk about it...ended with him yelling "if you don't like it, get it somewhere else!" Problem is...I DO like it, right here with him. 

We can't afford counseling. Kind of ironic actually. 

So....JustWondering...yeah. My welcome mat is worn out in more ways than one if you get my drift.


----------



## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

Theseus said:


> At least three people in this thread have said he should "let it go" or just drop it. So you are telling the OP: "just accept your miserable life". Some advice!


+1 

Marriage involves a promise of a monogamy.

A monogamous relationship is an exclusive _sexual_ relationship. It is not an exclusive _celibate_ relationship. There's a reason sex used to be referred to as a wife's "marital duty." Regular sex between a husband and wife has always been the normal, expected situation in marriage.


----------



## Just Wondering (Dec 20, 2011)

It was another bad night.Once again I blew my mind about the lack of sex in my marriage.I really feel that I need to stop coming here and trying to learn about it all.I think for me all it does is put gas on the fire.My wife needs help with her side of this problem.But really myself I have turned this into a monster.Sex is all I think about 24/7 and I have always said its because its something I want and can't have.Maybe its not even the sex.
Its someone taking something from me I want.But I really need to stop this in my life .It has completly taking over my life its all I think about.Its bigger than me.I so wish I would of handle it all differently.I have fought,Called my wife every name in the book.I am bad to her,I space her out for it. I punish her for it.and in the end I am the ass 8ole.I so regett not being a bigger person.She has torn me down to this.The way I have treated her its no wonder she is not interested in sex.Someway I got the idea if I got pissed off all the time she would change.Not happening,I have always been a great guy, a good husband , fun to be around.But all this has turn me into a bad person.I don't like who I have turned into.I now feel I have fought this battle with the wrong guns.My advice to anyone else is do not lose your cool with it.Do not let it take you over, or down. If I could fight this war over.It would be with hummor.laughter,and smile about it all and walk away.I would never lose who I am and where I come from.She deprived me of sex for 30 yrs.And I have made her life terriable for doing it to me.And in the end I feel worse for it than her.I really have to say I am sorry for it all.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

As the poet said "arguments with furniture are rarely productive".


----------



## bbdad (Feb 11, 2013)

Find your own interests and let them be your therapy. I find the gym is my best therapy. Days I am the most frustrated are often days that I set new personal records in the gym.


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Woodchuck said:


> And hows that workin out for ya?????
> 
> the woodchuck


The real question is....

How's that workin out for HIM????


----------



## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

techmom said:


> The real question is....
> 
> How's that workin out for HIM????


I've seen it all. Both LD spouses and WS blame-shift. Wow.


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

MrBrains said:


> I've seen it all. Both LD spouses and WS blame-shift. Wow.


There is no blame, only realty. I was LD in the beginning, no bait and switch. He was trying to change me, so how's that working for him?


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

am I too naive to believe that people are straightforward?

Or, it simply is not an issue at that point?


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

john117 said:


> Since marriage does not come with mandatory disclosure forms, would a self admitted LD fess up beforehand, or would he/she play along until the rice has settled?
> 
> Again, I hate to make marriage parallel a business transaction but.... Or am I too naive to believe that people are straightforward?
> 
> Or, it simply is not an issue at that point?


I was straightforward, I was not sexually enthusiastic. He thought that he was "man enough" to change me. He thought that I did not meet the right man yet, I was a virgin so what did I know.

When an HD thinks he can convert and LD bad things happen... Or don't happen...


----------



## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

techmom said:


> A normal drive person could turn LD with a HD partner who just won't let up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No blame really?? Some long BS story about food just to get to this.... Blame shift.


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

MrBrains said:


> No blame really?? Some long BS story about food just to get to this.... Blame shift.


To most HDs, every explanation on why we are LD is a blameshift...Doesn't help the situation much...

Maybe listening would help, don't ya think?


----------



## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

techmom said:


> To most HDs, every explanation on why we are LD is a blameshift...Doesn't help the situation much...
> 
> Maybe listening would help, don't ya think?


Ok. Do I need to quote the same line again? Would reading it again help you?


----------



## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

You put the blame of your LD on your husband always asking you for sex. That's shifting the blame for your decision on to him. Take responsibility for your own actions.


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

MrBrains said:


> Ok. Do I need to quote the same line again? Would reading it again help you?


I can see what your wife is dealing with....

Every explanation equals blameshift...

Giving it up to you is all you want regardless of how she feels about it...

OK I GET IT.


----------



## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

techmom said:


> I can see what your wife is dealing with....
> 
> Every explanation equals blameshift...
> 
> ...


I guess I'll have to go back and quote you again. Everything is not a blame shift. But you are doing it. My wife (however you thought bringing her into this was a good idea) has nothing to do with your explanation if your blaming your husband for your decision. I guess you thought making it personal to me would cloud things. It actually makes you look sillier. He did not make you LD. Period. 

Cloud that.


----------



## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Your husband needs to run the MAP.


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

MrBrains said:


> I guess I'll have to go back and quote you again. Everything is not a blame shift. But you are doing it. My wife (however you thought bringing her into this was a good idea) has nothing to do with your explanation if your blaming your husband for your decision. I guess you thought making it personal to me would cloud things. It actually makes you look sillier. He did not make you LD. Period.
> 
> Cloud that.


He knew that I was LD but was/is trying to change me into HD...

Not my fault, I did not lie about who I was, but he thinks that he can change that. Macho pride and all of that. He had his choice of HD partners, I was the naive virgin who came in his path. I love him, but I can't want sex like he does.

No blameshift, no bait and switch, just real talk.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

techmom said:


> To most HDs, every explanation on why we are LD is a blameshift...Doesn't help the situation much...


It ultimately depends whether it is LD Grande, LD Venti, or LD Trenta...


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

john117 said:


> It ultimately depends whether it is LD Grande, LD Venti, or LD Trenta... The reason, the amount of effort or compromise one is willing to put into it, and many other factors.
> 
> Also on the reason.
> 
> ...


I'm sure that you don't approach mowing at 95f with the enthusiasm that an LD spouse is required to approach sex in order for the HD to feel like it is a satisfying experience.

If I ever approached sex like I would approach yardwork it would be called "duty sex" and would cause a rift.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It's all a matter of degree. What level of compromise?


----------



## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

techmom said:


> He knew that I was LD but was/is trying to change me into HD...
> 
> Not my fault, I did not lie about who I was, but he thinks that he can change that. Macho pride and all of that. He had his choice of HD partners, I was the naive virgin who came in his path. I love him, but I can't want sex like he does.
> 
> No blameshift, no bait and switch, just real talk.


No blame shift? No bait and switch? Ok here's the real talk from your mouth. "A normal drive person could turn LD with a HD partner that won't let up."

You blame him because he won't let up. Then you say now you were always LD and he knew it? Which is it? Did he turn you LD or were you always LD? Was it his fault for turning you LD? 

You see I can read. You didn't lie about who you were? Or are you lying about who you are now?

I think what you really want is validation. You feel bad about now being LD. I don't really think your LD at all. I think you blame your husband and don't know why, I know why. He's at fault but not for wanting sex with you. For not making you want it from him. He needs to MAP. Bad!


----------



## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

techmom said:


> Maybe listening would help, don't ya think?


Did you read the OP? He wants to talk to his wife about the problem but she refuses, and it sounds like she attempts to shame him in the process. It is clear to me where to point the finger in his situation. Or is your perspective that the HD partner is the only one who needs to listen.

In your case, I would agree that someone who marries an incompatible partner in the hope that they can change them is both futile and foolish. It seems to me that you married a HD man knowing fuly well that you had little interst in sex. Why did you do this? Why is the mis-match not equally your responsibility?

Compromise is the glue that holds relationships together. If the only reason to refuse sex continuously is that you're just not interested (not some physical defect or emotional trauma,) there is zero excuse for either partner to refuse to work together to find a reasonable compromise.


----------



## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

You claim your LD but if your husband was "Style" you would be laying him like tile. Even the strongest will cannot deny biology.


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

MrBrains said:


> No blame shift? No bait and switch? Ok here's the real talk from your mouth. "A normal drive person could turn LD with a HD partner that won't let up."
> 
> You blame him because he won't let up. Then you say now you were always LD and he knew it? Which is it? Did he turn you LD or were you always LD? Was it his fault for turning you LD?
> 
> ...


When I said "HD" I didn't mean me, I meant that I saw a couple of my friends with normal libidoes turn LD because of their partners pestering. 

I read your story, do not project your wife's story onto me. I never desired much sex, I just fell in love with my hubby for his other qualities, I thought that the sex drive would work itself out...

Didn't I say I was naive?


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

One can make a fair assessment of likely sexual compatibility pretty easily during courtship. I do not think I was far off my original estimate 30 years ago. Even the TAM village idiot could have told me that a guy from one of the (blush) more sexually active parts of Europe and a gal from Farawaystan would not be an exactly awesome sexual match. Add to that the inherent insecurities of being college students, graduate assistants, etc. No brainer to think that she would be materialistic, being a card-carrying member of the Farawaystan 1% elite. 

But what bothers me is the issue of now we're at the peak of our careers, two great kids, awesome house, the works, and right at that point where we can begin to enjoy ourselves for a few years before being turned into Soylent Green, one partner decides that she or he has had enough "fun". Whoa, pardner, that's not how it works... Add a few years of rather non-creative reasons and some dubious motives and you have it made.

Hence the "evil or stupid" question.


----------



## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

techmom said:


> When I said "HD" I didn't mean me, I meant that I saw a couple of my friends with normal libidoes turn LD because of their partners pestering.
> 
> I read your story, do not project your wife's story onto me. I never desired much sex, I just fell in love with my hubby for his other qualities, I thought that the sex drive would work itself out...
> 
> Didn't I say I was naive?


Your nothing like my wife. Never thought so.


----------



## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

techmom said:


> When I said "HD" I didn't mean me, I meant that I saw a couple of my friends with normal libidoes turn LD because of their partners pestering.
> 
> I read your story, do not project your wife's story onto me. I never desired much sex, I just fell in love with my hubby for his other qualities, I thought that the sex drive would work itself out...
> 
> Didn't I say I was naive?


Now it's not about you. You were talking about food and your friends? My bad.

You feel in love with your husband because he was a different man then than he is now. These qualities you saw then does he still have them out front now?


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

The qualities that I liked about him were:

cool, confident, romantic, non-smoking, cared about his health, hygenic and fun

What he turned into after marriage was anxious, non-romantic, chain smoker, eats unhealthy foods he never ate before, and worries about bills instead of letting loose and having fun. How did this change happen? Don't say it is because of a sexless marriage. We were having sex frequently (same frenquency from the time we first met). What changed in him?

There is another thread going where the wife is asking her hubby to be more romantic so she can want sex more. He used to do all of the romantic things before they married, now he is clueless. I would call that a bait and switch, he used romance to get her, now that she is his he doesn't care.

My hubby knew my sex drive before marriage, and he was more experienced than me. I had NO sex partners before him, didn't have a clue as to what my sex drive would be after marriage. I was a gamble on his part, he knew HD women who were sexually active but he wanted someone "pure" who he could teach the ropes of sexuality. I thought that was exciting, and that maybe he would be the lover of my dreams. Yes, I was naive. I was 20, my hubby was 24. We were young and married for some of the wrong reasons. Our friends thought the same way. My mom tried to counsel me but I was young and in love.

I wish I had listened.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ginger-snap (Apr 10, 2013)

techmom said:


> The qualities that I liked about him were:
> 
> cool, confident, romantic, non-smoking, cared about his health, hygenic and fun
> 
> ...


Have you asked him? 

If you're having sex frequently (by the way, what is your definition of this?), then you being LD could not have been the issue as you are keeping up your end of the "bargain" of marriage in that regard. I would be unhappy about his changes too. Smoking is a near deal-breaker for me, in and of itself. What does he say if you try to talk to him about his health, smoking, eating habits, etc.?


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Don't know about you but I would love a spouse that worries about bills more than they worry about a few other things....

As a practical scientist I am not as romantic as I could be (romance and skirt chasing is the national sport where I grew up and it hasn't been working very well for the country) but i am very attentive to her needs and plenty romantic by most standards) but match that with the romantic drive of a food freezer and its no contest.

We used to have date nights in college, always Wendy's, a stroll at the mall, and ice cream. In grad school we moved in together and I paid all the bills from my stipend. This would have been inconceivable for anyone from Farawaystan. Fast forward to my first job, more college for her, etc. Sex life still decent even after 20 hour days.

First child, more college for both of us while working, a second child (try balancing work, research, school, and a newborn). Sex life still decent.

As the girls got older pressure from her work started to get to her. That and resentment, if I had to guess, of my successful career that pays very well while requiring bank hours vs her career that pays very well but requires killer hours. Resentment Central...

She's now at the point where she works 14 hour days plus 10 hour weekends, mostly because she wants to be "perfect". True, it is a high stakes career (consulting) for a mega multinational but it is also her excuse that she has too many things in her mind to worry about sex, intimacy, family, or otherwise.

Have I changed? 20 lb, gray hair, and that is about it. Still as care free, caring, and funny as I was 30 years ago. I have excellent social skills. Look my age but don't act it. Has she changed? 10 lb., looks 40 instead of 55 with very good shape (veg diet will do that). But has no patience, is intolerant of anything but her views, no concern for money, no concern for others' well being, etc. 

I taught her what she knows about sex but growing up in a country where dating is hazardous to one's appendages is not conducive to heavy duty romance. That is a heck of a demon to exorcise.

But the biggest obstacle is her constant insecurity about anything. And that has about killed intimacy, because intimacy by definition means to trust your partner...

Her way indeed...


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

ginger-snap said:


> Have you asked him?
> 
> If you're having sex frequently (by the way, what is your definition of this?), then you being LD could not have been the issue as you are keeping up your end of the "bargain" of marriage in that regard. I would be unhappy about his changes too. Smoking is a near deal-breaker for me, in and of itself. What does he say if you try to talk to him about his health, smoking, eating habits, etc.?


We have had discussions ad nauseum regarding his health, especially smoking. Before the drop in sex he would promise that he would quit but never would. Before that time I had smoked for a few years then quit because I hated the smell and it would yellow my teeth. I quit cold turkey and wanted him to quit too, he was blissfully unaware of how important it was to keep ourselves healthy and attractive. We started the bad habit now we had to quit. Meanwhile the sex never tapered off from when we were dating. He never registered a problem, even when I started being repulsed by his breath and avoided french kissing him. He started seeing a problem when the sex frequency dropped, and started to complain. When I brought up the health factor he said that it couldn't be the reason. He didn't listen or hear me at all.

When the sex tapered off further, that was the only problem he wanted to discuss. Not the health concerns or the smoking I had mentioned before. The arguments were like the movie "Groundhog Day" where the same thing repeats over and over again. He would ask why I didn't want sex, I would say it was because of the stinking smoking and his teeth were being ruined. He would say that shouldn't matter because he was a good husband otherwise and I should be fortunate to have him. Didn't translate into sexual desire though, so mine tanked.

So here we are today in a sexless marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

techmom said:


> This is how my LD progressed, just exchange the food for sex. Loved it in the beginning, got tired of it as I was being pestered for it so much. This is not a bait and switch, it may look like it but it isn't. A normal drive person could turn LD with a HD partner who just won't let up. HDs turn bitter becuase the person does not have the gusto they used to. Maybe they are worn out. Checking hormones and sending them to the doctor just to get them to want as much as you is selfish, just find a dang hobby.
> /LD rant
> 
> ...waiting for the flames...


Well, if that's the way you feel, that's just the way it is I suppose. Not going to flame you for it.

But, that doesn't quite address the whole dynamic, now does it? Let's pick up where you left off...

At some point H figures out you just want to be left alone. He does just as you suggest and find some outside interests. He may spend more time with the kids, my friends, take up golf - whatever. At first, you're relieved.

Then you realize something. Him getting a hobby means he's not around to meet your wants and needs - around to help you with this or get that. You feel like "where is the manwho is supposed to be my other half and worrying about me like himself?"

You're now resentful (or, more resentful than before). You don't have him around to want you and make you feel good. You have to do more for yourself, and you might have to make do with less (it costs money to golf or go to the ball game). At some point you' get that this is how he feels. If you are a fair person, you'll strike a workable compromise with your husband.

Or, you lash out. You don't care that you got your way with sex, or that he's been feeling the lack you feel now for a long time. You get angry, treat him badly, and your deeds (if not your words) say you consider yourself the priority, because you expect him meet your needs even as you ignore his.

Bottom line: if you feel controlling sex is THE priority, that is your choice. But, understand that there will be consequences. It may be as simple as he's not around for you as much. Or, it could be as dire as ending your marriage. Most likely, if you don't avoid the downward spiral of resentment, you'll wish that mustering up the enthusiasm to be intimate a couple of times a week was the biggest relationship challenge you faced.


----------



## ginger-snap (Apr 10, 2013)

DTO, see her post above...it's more clarifying.

techmom - have you two tried counseling?


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Go and read my other posts above, it is more than just mustering the enthusiasm. Why should I have the enthusiasm when he couldn't give a rat's ass about what was important to me.

That was until the sex dropped.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

ginger-snap said:


> DTO, see her post above...it's more clarifying.
> 
> techmom - have you two tried counseling?


I would, he is dead-set against it. Especially for something that he feels I should automactically have for him which is sexual desire. He doesn't see anything else wrong, it's like talking to a brick wall.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

techmom said:


> Go and read my other posts above, it is more than just mustering the enthusiasm. Why should I have the enthusiasm when he couldn't give a rat's ass about what was important to me.


Eventually we get to the point, which is resentment.


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Just to add, I think that the reason why he married me as a virgin with very little sexual knowledge and no sexual experience is becuase he wanted me to be his sexual disciple. He wanted to be my sex guru and grow sexually through him with no one else in my memory bank. I remember when I told him that there were guys that were interested in me that I used to talk to, he wanted to know the who, what, when and where aobut them. It was like an interrogation session, I never grilled him about his past girlfriends like that. That should have been my first red flag while I was dating him.

Nowadays, I state if I'm attracted to some celebrity on TV or in the media, whether or not he gets mad. I just don't care about his anger or trying to control my sexuality no more. It is just what it is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

techmom said:


> Just to add, I think that the reason why he married me as a virgin with very little sexual knowledge and no sexual experience is becuase he wanted me to be his sexual disciple. He wanted to be my sex guru and grow sexually through him with no one else in my memory bank. I remember when I told him that there were guys that were interested in me that I used to talk to, he wanted to know the who, what, when and where aobut them. It was like an interrogation session, I never grilled him about his past girlfriends like that. That should have been my first red flag while I was dating him.
> 
> Nowadays, I state if I'm attracted to some celebrity on TV or in the media, whether or not he gets mad. I just don't care about his anger or trying to control my sexuality no more. It is just what it is.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So you believe now that he's opened up your sexuality, that you need to test it with outsiders?


----------



## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

techmom said:


> Just to add, I think that the reason why he married me as a virgin with very little sexual knowledge and no sexual experience is becuase he wanted me to be his sexual disciple. He wanted to be my sex guru and grow sexually through him with no one else in my memory bank. I remember when I told him that there were guys that were interested in me that I used to talk to, he wanted to know the who, what, when and where aobut them. It was like an interrogation session, I never grilled him about his past girlfriends like that. That should have been my first red flag while I was dating him.
> 
> Nowadays, I state if I'm attracted to some celebrity on TV or in the media, whether or not he gets mad. I just don't care about his anger or trying to control my sexuality no more. It is just what it is.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Buy him "Married Man Sex Life Primer" it will turn him into the romantic man you used to know. Your sexual attraction to him will go way up. You will find your not LD at all. It really is his fault. He needs to man up. Your needs will get met and he will be happy to get his eager wife back.


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

MrBrains said:


> Buy him "Married Man Sex Life Primer" it will turn him into the romantic man you used to know. Your sexual attraction to him will go way up. You will find your not LD at all. It really is his fault. He needs to man up. Your needs will get met and he will be happy to get his eager wife back.


Maybe this would work, because nothing else has.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

Edited to add- I read Athol's website before, it has a feel of beta men turning into pretend alpha men. All I want from my husband is for him to stop pestering me for sex, get his health together, and get a new lease on life. He was never like this when I met him, never desperate. 

Knowing him, this what he will absorb from the primer:

treat wifey like a jerk, prance around the house like a jerk demanding sex, attention, whatever strikes his fancy at the moment. She complains about my teeth, so what? Women don't know what they want anyway, everything they say is an excuse not to have sex. She probably wants to cheat with some metrosexual whiny wimp anyway, I like myself as I am and I'm not changing for her or anybody.

Now pass me my beer woman!


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Stop pestering you?

If that is how you feel, and I assume the delta between D(h) and D(w) is insurmountable (desire of hubby vs desire of wife do not converge to any acceptable level reachable by mutual agreement) what next for hubs?

I could be taking better care of myself, sure, lose my freshman 20, sure, wear better clothes than my standard jeans and oxfords (the perks of r&d I guess), play the corporate game a bit more, but for what? I will compromise by changing everything I stand for to get laid a few extra times a year, if that? By my own wife, the one that did the whole "to have and to hold, blah, blah, blah" vows thing.

No thanks. Especially not when any improvements in frequency or quality are likely as permanent as frost on a windshield right before you put the defroster. Been there, done that....


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

john117 said:


> Stop pestering you?
> 
> If that is how you feel, and I assume the delta between D(h) and D(w) is insurmountable (desire of hubby vs desire of wife do not converge to any acceptable level reachable by mutual agreement) what next for hubs?
> 
> ...


My question is this, are you improving yourself for you or for her? She can sense if you are making changes to see if you will get more sex, because she will sense the "helicoptering" and the pining. That is not attractive.

Another question, do you think you are entitled to sex just becuase you are married? Even if you let yourself go, don't continue to groom yourself and get lazy? That makes her lose attraction to you and smells of a bait and switch. If you were well groomed and attractive before marriage why stop after marriage?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The second question is a no brainier. Marriage entitles one to sex, within the limits of a civilized society and its norms. This is true for both partners, period. Much as she was entitled to my paycheck as a grad student for a few years, and much as she was entitled to my paycheck as an employee to pet for her grad school, and much as she is entitled to my relentless contribution of singlehandedly raising two girls while she was out there fighting corporate dragons, or as much as she is entitled to me listening to her bad day at work stories for 25 years, etc.

Remember what I said in a previous post. Take the intimacy angle out of the picture (as she has) and marriage is a business transaction. It is that simple.

Now, the self improvement angle. I am not a slob by any means, but I dislike dress up. Comes with my job. I love dress up one week every year or so when on a cruise, but otherwise the local Costco does an admirable job supplying my clothing. Weight could be better but when I dropped 30 lb. 5 years ago that was about the time the marital fireworks started when she lost the college battle for daughter 1. I am 53 and still at the maturity level of a teenager which is interestingly useful for my work. She chose to take the opposite approach of maturing to workaholic prudish 60 year old at 40. Well well. 

It's not like she would swoon over if Brad Pitt showed up in our bedroom anyway... I have never once in 30 years heard her comment on anyone's physique, male or otherwise  her only concern of improvement is for the degree of control it offers. 

Edit: I pioneered the scientific slob look at work 3 decades ago. No bait and switch. My boss told me I was the first employee that ever graced the executive dining room (for an award) without a suit and tie ...


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

john117 said:


> The second question is a no brainier. Marriage entitles one to sex, within the limits of a civilized society and its norms. This is true for both partners, period. Much as she was entitled to my paycheck as a grad student for a few years, and much as she was entitled to my paycheck as an employee to pet for her grad school, and much as she is entitled to my relentless contribution of singlehandedly raising two girls while she was out there fighting corporate dragons, or as much as she is entitled to me listening to her bad day at work stories for 25 years, etc.
> 
> Remember what I said in a previous post. Take the intimacy angle out of the picture (as she has) and marriage is a business transaction. It is that simple.


Many men make the mistake of thinking that they are entitled to sex in marriage while neglecting other things like taking care of themselves. I feel like married people should maintain their health, hygene and fitness before and after marriage. The bible may not say that, but after centuries of extra marital affairs maybe they should insert that point into the vows. Many people are writing their own vows for this purpose, because the traditional vows just need to be updated to modern times. Women work and make just as much or more money as men nowadays. Thank goodness, because I'm tired of hearing the "I work hard all day so I deserve some poon" argument.

If I had daughters I would make sure that they do not depend on their husband's income. Just so they won't hear that argument in their lives. Men need to step up and keep up with the appearance they had before marriage. My hubby lost his and doesn't care. I kept up mine and lost some weight in the process. Balding and natural things are understandable, but neglect is not.


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

And by the way, I earn just as much money him, so I won't be classified as the so-called lazy SAHM that TAM men like to rag on. Even though the SAHM contributes more to society that anybody would want to mention, because that would negate the "hard working man" argument.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

techmom said:


> And by the way, I earn just as much money him, so I won't be classified as the so-called lazy SAHM that TAM men like to rag on. Even though the SAHM contributes more to society that anybody would want to mention, because that would negate the "hard working man" argument.


Anger directed towards men much?

The more you talk, the more it sounds like you're a misandrist.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Spare us the hard working stay at home parent argument. My wife earns about 90% of what I do but a good part of it is costs needed to support her Farawaystan card carrying 1% lifestyle while I could care less...

I would gladly trade my custom 6000 sq ft custom home for a 3 bedroom 1200 sq ft townhouse with a wife that actually is there for her family and not for her corporate overlords. I do not work for money. Never did. Work does not define me, nor does it stress me. For her, working in a male dominated business world is a challenge that she meets only by long work hours and complete detachment from the rest of the world.

And yet she gets angry when I go on a business trip (2-3 days twice a year at most).


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

techmom said:


> Many men make the mistake of thinking that they are entitled to sex in marriage while neglecting other things like taking care of themselves. I feel like married people should maintain their health, hygene and fitness before and after marriage.


That does not explain how the couple across the street from us exploded their marriage... He was a very successful business owner with great looks (smoking and drinking to boot) and his wife was incredibly good looking late 30's. (memo to neighbor - mowing the yard in a bikini should be done more often). He and her went into a successful business together.

The explosion occurred when he chose to cheat on her with the nanny (a 20 year old from Latvia that looked like the female version of the Michelin Man) and she cheated on him with a family friend. I guess they did not get techmom's memo


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Anger directed towards men much?
> 
> The more you talk, the more it sounds like you're a misandrist.


No sane man on TAM is ragging on SAHM. A SAHM who handles her part increases her families value, there is no complaint because it is hard work. It's hard work if there was a responsible SAHD.

The problem comes when the SAH spouse wants to lay around all day, and literally live off the other. It's not good.


----------



## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

techmom said:


> Maybe this would work, because nothing else has.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> Edited to add- I read Athol's website before, it has a feel of beta men turning into pretend alpha men. All I want from my husband is for him to stop pestering me for sex, get his health together, and get a new lease on life. He was never like this when I met him, never desperate.
> ...


Read the book. It's not fake. We are not fake. What could you lose? The website is not the book. It's about giving your wife what she really wants. I bet you like it. Get your husband in to shape. He will quit smoking.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I beg to disagree about the book - or any book - in hardcore LD Stage IV cases. 

What my wife really wants is another dozen art pieces, the house to be spotless (for whom I do not know we have guests once every 2-3 years) and the kids to have straight A's and 45 on the MCAT. 

Ah, and for me to have a non fatal exercise equipment malfunction incident that involves destruction of key male reproductive components


----------



## RFguy (Feb 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> I beg to disagree about the book - or any book - in hardcore LD Stage IV cases.
> 
> What my wife really wants is another dozen art pieces, the house to be spotless (for whom I do not know we have guests once every 2-3 years) and the kids to have straight A's and 45 on the MCAT.
> 
> Ah, and for me to have a non fatal exercise equipment malfunction incident that involves destruction of key male reproductive components


Exactly!

These books are all about improving yourself. This might result in getting more sex by proxy, but ultimately you can't do anything to change your spouse.

I am very good looking and get constantly hit by women. In a couple of cases this happened while she was present, right in her face.

This didn't cause any improvement in intimacy, all I got was a talk that I shouldn't dare cheat on her unless I didn't mind waking up some day with some parts missing.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

RFguy said:


> Exactly!
> 
> These books are all about improving yourself. This might result in getting more sex by proxy, but ultimately you can't do anything to change your spouse.
> 
> :


There are ways to change others' behavior by influencing their decision making process as well as the decision making framework, i.e. the very dynamics of the marriage. 

It is a bit more difficult to do than sculpting six pack waists or joining the Hair Club for Men. 

If your friendly Stage IV LD 'conditions' you to constantly lower your expectations and treat merchant marine level sex as a "gift" that is pretty much behavioral modification in itself... Dr. Pavlov level pretty much. So any qualms about using the same methods as Stage IV is using should be limited...


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

techmom said:


> That's real talk. It's like eating a Thanksgiving meal with all of the trimmings, then the next hour someone serves you another large meal. You're stuffed but the other person can eat all night with gusto....


No flaming here

I think the food analogy is a particularly good one because it can help both HD and LD empathize with each others' perspective. 

Understandably though it becomes strained when the connection to food is lost. No one is still full from a Thanksgiving meal a year, a month or even a week later, which is where many on TAM with LD spouses are coming from.


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

It think it all boils down to scheduling. 

If a wife does not see sex as part of "the schedule" then she is willing to accept a less than ideal marriage.

The fact is putting it back into "the schedule" requires her to make choices and likely shift her priorities.

That's why we are here. Wives are OK with less than ideal marriages.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Right, an hour of sex a week, now where would my wife fit it into her scheduled 16 hours a day of work... The mega-multinational company she works for might have to issue an earnings warning due to the productivity loss 

Maybe it's just me but humans are very tolerant of schedule changes if an activity is "on schedule" mentally. 

Weekly becomes biweekly with clever "unforeseen" events, biweekly becomes monthly by even more "unforeseen" events, and all of a sudden you're looking at the TAM Poster Person for LD partners worldwide.

The moment you put sex on a "schedule" it becomes a chore, duty fare.


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

john117 said:


> There are ways to change others' behavior by influencing their decision making process as well as the decision making framework, i.e. the very dynamics of the marriage.
> 
> It is a bit more difficult to do than sculpting six pack waists or joining the Hair Club for Men.


I'm glad you pointed that out. MORE difficult, but possible if you control yourself. And to say that zero behavior modification should occur, I'm not so sure anymore. They modified your behavior to expect less than what is even reasonable in the first place.



john117 said:


> If your friendly Stage IV LD 'conditions' you to constantly lower your expectations and treat merchant marine level sex as a "gift" that is pretty much behavioral modification in itself... Dr. Pavlov level pretty much. So any qualms about using the same methods as Stage IV is using should be limited...


What woiuld merchant marine level sex compare to? Would it be similar to a minimum but consistent dosing of sex?


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

john117 said:


> Right, an hour of sex a week, now where would my wife fit it into her scheduled 16 hours a day of work... The mega-multinational company she works for might have to issue an earnings warning due to the productivity loss
> 
> Maybe it's just me but humans are very tolerant of schedule changes if an activity is "on schedule" mentally.
> 
> ...


And you never know. The LD's may be part of a secret circle, and they discuss tips and tricks for how to manage their sex lives, excuses and situational manipulations... Imagine that.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> But who is to say what the "right thing" is? Everyone is right in their own minds. The person trying to corner the other into doing the so called right thing is little more than a bully.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The person whose needs aren't being met, that's who. Cause, what is the alternative? Living in a state of resentment because our needs aren't being met by our spouse? Pretending to feel happy? Pretending to feel loved? Putting on a smiling face because the other person can't or won't see the pain they are causing? If it's "bullying" to tell the one person on earth you want to meet your needs that they aren't meeting your needs and you're unhappy, then in my opinion, the marriage was over before it started.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> You're right. The wife trying to force her husband to be celibate is nothing more than a bully.


*Definitely*.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Merchant marine, well, judging from several relatives, 4-8 times a year, certainly under the so-called 10 benchmark that has been given on TAM on occasion...

LD societies do exist  the local Farawaystan cultural group throws a ton of segregated functions for its members . (there seem to be an awful number of women only functions, no men only functions, and one mixed gender function per year). Judging from the few women only functions my wife has hosted the ladies are far more decked out on those occasions than in the family events... But gotta hand it to the Farawaystan ladies, good genes and nutrition (and smoking ) makes most of the ladies look 20 years younger... Plus we have food leftovers for a week...


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> The person whose needs aren't being met, that's who. Cause, what is the alternative? Living in a state of resentment because our needs aren't being met by our spouse? Pretending to feel happy? Pretending to feel loved? Putting on a smiling face because the other person can't or won't see the pain they are causing? If it's "bullying" to tell the one person on earth you want to meet your needs that they aren't meeting your needs and you're unhappy, then in my opinion, the marriage was over before it started.


I agree here.

But what if someones "NEED" is to need to be able to physically and mentally dominate you. Abuse. What if they have a need to never adjust to any of your needs or requirements. What if they have a need to never concern themself with your priorities or well-being.... Then what?


----------



## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Everyone works and has kids.

When married, you are no longer your own and are to give of yourself to your spouse, whatever those needs at the time might be. If its sex, then have sex. If its cuddling, then cuddling. If its talking then talk. But never deny the other their needs and make excuses because that's bad for any relationship.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

techmom said:


> He knew that I was LD but was/is trying to change me into HD...
> 
> Not my fault, I did not lie about who I was, but he thinks that he can change that. Macho pride and all of that. He had his choice of HD partners, I was the naive virgin who came in his path. I love him, but I can't want sex like he does.
> 
> No blameshift, no bait and switch, just real talk.


If you knew he wanted more than you were willing to give, why the heck did you marry him? That sounds unbelievably cruel to me. No, you didn't bait and switch. No, you didn't lie. 

But if you knew that he wanted more sex than you were willing to give and _still married him_, THAT is your fault. It's the worse kind of "I told you so" there is.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

treyvion said:


> I agree here.
> 
> But what if someones "NEED" is to need to be able to physically and mentally dominate you. Abuse. What if they have a need to never adjust to any of your needs or requirements. What if they have a need to never concern themself with your priorities or well-being.... Then what?


I'm talking about legitimate relational needs, not personality disorders. If a spouse is so unavailable that they expect their husband or wife to simply go without their emotional/physical needs being met, then they don't deserve the person they married, nor do they even understand what marriage is meant to be.


----------



## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> I'm talking about legitimate relational needs, not personality disorders. If a spouse is so unavailable that they expect their husband or wife to simply go without their emotional/physical needs being met, then they don't deserve the person they married, nor do they even understand what marriage is meant to be.


Totally agree. :iagree::iagree:


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> I'm talking about legitimate relational needs, not personality disorders. If a spouse is so unavailable that they expect their husband or wife to simply go without their emotional/physical needs being met, then they don't deserve the person they married, nor do they even understand what marriage is meant to be.


Was just pointing it out and thanks for explaining it. To these types it is physical pain for them to not be able to do it.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

treyvion said:


> I agree here.
> 
> But what if someones "NEED" is to need to be able to physically and mentally dominate you. Abuse. What if they have a need to never adjust to any of your needs or requirements. What if they have a need to never concern themself with your priorities or well-being.... Then what?



Do you know my ex? His need was for me to stfu and wham bam it when he felt like it. Guess I wasn't meeting those needs....Direct quote from him: "You're supposed to shut up until I speak to you, f#ck me when I want it, and pretend like you like it". Needless to say I was LD in that marriage.....not in my current one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> If you knew he wanted more than you were willing to give, why the heck did you marry him? That sounds unbelievably cruel to me. No, you didn't bait and switch. No, you didn't lie.
> 
> But if you knew that he wanted more sex than you were willing to give and _still married him_, THAT is your fault. It's the worse kind of "I told you so" there is.


But why isn't he equally responsible to evaluate whether she would be able to meet his needs before he married her, since she was honest? Sounds like they both used poor judgment in not addressing this before they married.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Do you know my ex? His need was for me to stfu and wham bam it when he felt like it. Guess I wasn't meeting those needs....Direct quote from him: "You're supposed to shut up until I speak to you, f#ck me when I want it, and pretend like you like it". Needless to say I was LD in that marriage.....not in my current one.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He sounded like an Alpha of an Alpha.

It must have felt like being raped.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> But why isn't he equally responsible to evaluate whether she would be able to meet his needs before he married her, since she was honest? Sounds like they both used poor judgment in not addressing this before they married.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I never said he wasn't equally responsible, but he isn't the one here posting. She is.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

treyvion said:


> He sounded like an Alpha of an Alpha.
> 
> It must have felt like being raped.



Only of you equate alpha with a$$h#le, which I don't think is fair. My hb has plenty of alpha in that he takes care of business and his body/health and can always be counted on to have my back. That is sexy...well the body helps too. As for my ex, it might have felt like rape except that I turned him down most of the time. As it turns out, he only likes to bully those that don't fight back (not very alpha) and I do fight back. It just reflected his general attitude toward women. Can't figure out why he's still single.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> I never said he wasn't equally responsible, but he isn't the one here posting. She is.


Fair enough. I have to wonder what he was thinking though, I thought a lot of men made their decision based on the sex at that time. Maybe I'm wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> Fair enough. I have to wonder what he was thinking though, I thought a lot of men made their decision based on the sex at that time. Maybe I'm wrong.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, according to her the sexual frequency _was_ high in the beginning, and then after marriage things changed and it dropped. While at the same time saying there wasn't a bait and switch, and she's always been LD...

If her husband was as confused as I am....


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

The frequency was never high, he was the one trying to increase it. I was always ld, he was trying to make me desire more and I was in love with him so I thought it would work. He was my first and only partner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

> This is how my LD progressed, just exchange the food for sex. Loved it in the beginning, got tired of it as I was being pestered for it so much.





> Before the drop in sex he would promise that he would quit but never would....Meanwhile the sex never tapered off from when we were dating....He started seeing a problem when the sex frequency dropped, and started to complain. When I brought up the health factor he said that it couldn't be the reason. He didn't listen or hear me at all.
> 
> When the sex tapered off further, that was the only problem he wanted to discuss.


So, your sexual frequency _did_ fluctuate? Curious, what was it like when you were dating and "loved it"? 

Your husband is wrong to let himself go, stop taking care of himself, etc. But his needs are _just_ as valid as yours. You can't expect him to try when you don't either.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Intentional LD's have their ideas about "service levels" and are pretty good at staying on track. For the first few years after marriage we did the 2x a week till we had both girls - maybe 12 years. Then thanks to kids, work, and school we stayed into 1x week of "quality" for another 13-14 years. About 4-5 years ago thanks to her work and her losing the college battle it more or less became 2x a month, with really creative ways to avoid/reject... 

Two years ago again thanks to work stress and Da Vinci level creativity the defacto became 1x a month of lousiness. Then she switched to merchant marine levels.

Pretty good I may say. If the subject comes up she opines my expectation is 1x a day (nice but no time) and goes back to her work. Since she's in full emotional shutdown I decided apathy is the best treatment....

What is truly amazing have been the reasons.. Using her own kids to her (perceived) advantage, etc. as I said, evil or stupid. No relationship with physical appearance and the like. Detached means just that.

I finally gave up and have detached emotionally much to her anger. Let it be...


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> So, your sexual frequency _did_ fluctuate? Curious, what was it like when you were dating and "loved it"?
> 
> Your husband is wrong to let himself go, stop taking care of himself, etc. But his needs are _just_ as valid as yours. You can't expect him to try when you don't either.


While we were dating it was once a week, I was a virgin when I met him and this was all new to me. He was quite experienced and was used to every day sex. He tried to get me to up the frequency and I was very willing because this was my first sexual relationship and I was in love at the tender age of 20. We still lived at our parents homes so he took us to hotels, I didn't feel comfortable there so we went to his cousin's. I intended to marry him because we had sex, as I was against pre-marital sex. 

My reasons for marrying him were wrong, yes I should have called it off. But it would have messed with my belief system and I felt that I would not be as valued by other men because they would have seen me as "used goods". So I stayed with him. He should have called it off as well because I was never matching the frequency he wanted, he was with HD partners in previous relationships and I constantly heard about how wonderful their sex was, and if I just opened up I would be able to enjoy it as well.

23 years later I'm still here, and I'm on the TAM boards wondering what all of the fuss is about. I still don't get it, and I am bitter towards people who assume that everyone who is normal has a high desire for sex. I don't and I never did, and no, I'm not knowingly abusing my husband by refusing. Just like the HD doesn't either. We end up here as a result of bad decisions and trying to cope.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Also, yes I did love the sex in the beginning, when it was just 1-2 times a week. After we married and he wanted it everyday was a different story.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Techmom, is your hb a giving lover? Do you know what you need sexually? I think there's more women than people realize that are LD because because they're not having good sex, so they don't know they're missing. It's not all mens fault, women are more complicated sexually and even the best lover is going to have a tough time with a women that doesn't know what she wants. Then consider a lot of men don't really know how please women, and porn makes this worse because it's full of men being selfish, factor in a woman that doesn't know what she wants, and you have a great setup for hd/ld problems.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

techmom said:


> While we were dating it was once a week, I was a virgin when I met him and this was all new to me. He was quite experienced and was used to every day sex. He tried to get me to up the frequency and I was very willing because this was my first sexual relationship and I was in love at the tender age of 20. We still lived at our parents homes so he took us to hotels, I didn't feel comfortable there so we went to his cousin's. I intended to marry him because we had sex, as I was against pre-marital sex.
> 
> My reasons for marrying him were wrong, yes I should have called it off. But it would have messed with my belief system and I felt that I would not be as valued by other men because they would have seen me as "used goods". So I stayed with him. He should have called it off as well because I was never matching the frequency he wanted, he was with HD partners in previous relationships and I constantly heard about how wonderful their sex was, and if I just opened up I would be able to enjoy it as well.
> 
> ...



A great way to kill your partners desire is to talk about sex with past partners. What an insensitive thing to do. I have a good friend that's been married for 30 years and her hb talked about the great bj's he got from his ex early on in their marriage. That still affects her. If my hb talked to me about how great sex was with his past partners I'd cut him off so fast he wouldn't know what hit him, and I love sex with him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

techmom said:


> While we were dating it was once a week, I was a virgin when I met him and this was all new to me. He was quite experienced and was used to every day sex. He tried to get me to up the frequency and I was very willing because this was my first sexual relationship and I was in love at the tender age of 20. We still lived at our parents homes so he took us to hotels, I didn't feel comfortable there so we went to his cousin's. I intended to marry him because we had sex, as I was against pre-marital sex.
> 
> My reasons for marrying him were wrong, yes I should have called it off. But it would have messed with my belief system and I felt that I would not be as valued by other men because they would have seen me as "used goods". So I stayed with him. He should have called it off as well because I was never matching the frequency he wanted, he was with HD partners in previous relationships and I constantly heard about how wonderful their sex was, and if I just opened up I would be able to enjoy it as well.


See, though, this is a difficult situation for HD partners. I was a virgin with my husband, too. Didn't believe in premarital sex either. I _loved_ sex...we had it often, even multiple times a day....that is, _after_ I was at a place of being open to it. Sometimes, with virgins, a man just doesn't know what's going on inside her head. Sometimes the issue IS that the girl won't open up, sometimes it's the feeling of being dirty or wrong, sometimes it's guilt, and sometimes she's, naturally, not inclined to sex...there are a variety of reasons why a girl might not be HD at first. After H and I started having sex, my biological urges were recognized for the first time in my life, and I've barely slowed down since. 

So, it may not have been as obvious as you think.



> 23 years later I'm still here, and I'm on the TAM boards wondering what all of the fuss is about. I still don't get it, and I am bitter towards people who assume that everyone who is normal has a high desire for sex. I don't and I never did, and no, I'm not knowingly abusing my husband by refusing.


Abuse? No. But you're _not_ living out an _actual_ marriage. That requires sex, barring any medical conditions that inhibit it. 



> Just like the HD doesn't either. We end up here as a result of bad decisions and trying to cope.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So, now my question, why not leave? You don't want sex with your husband, you refuse him, you aren't attracted to him, you don't sound like you even LIKE him, yet you stay? 

THAT is the most inconceivable aspect of this whole thing, imo.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

techmom said:


> While we were dating it was once a week, I was a virgin when I met him and this was all new to me. He was quite experienced and was used to every day sex. He tried to get me to up the frequency and I was very willing because this was my first sexual relationship and I was in love at the tender age of 20. We still lived at our parents homes so he took us to hotels, I didn't feel comfortable there so we went to his cousin's. I intended to marry him because we had sex, as I was against pre-marital sex.
> 
> My reasons for marrying him were wrong, yes I should have called it off. But it would have messed with my belief system and I felt that I would not be as valued by other men because they would have seen me as "used goods". So I stayed with him. He should have called it off as well because I was never matching the frequency he wanted, he was with HD partners in previous relationships and I constantly heard about how wonderful their sex was, and if I just opened up I would be able to enjoy it as well.
> 
> ...


Well, I think that this is the crux of the situation, and that is because (with a few differences) you and your H could be me and my XW.

There is a contradiction here; it's important to point out IMO because you need to look even-handedly at your situation before you can effectively fix it.

You said you initially happily met his desire for increased sexual frequency because you were in love with him. Then, you said he should have known better than to marry you because you never lived up to his sex drive. You can't have both at the same time.

I need to ask: do you maybe resent him for having pre-marital sex with you - even though you were willing- because it was against your beliefs? You said your intent to marry him justified the sexual relationship, and that you felt not being a virgin diminished your value as a spouse to someone else. Both of those are huge red flags, based on experience.

It sounds like you, at some level, think he owes you something for having had pre-marital sex with you - a shotgun wedding without the pregnancy. Said another way, the attitude I sense is that you gave him something (your purity) so valuable he never can truly earn it or reciprocate. Thus, he should have been happy with whatever your natural drive level was and served you faithfully even if his need was not met. It has not worked out that way, and you resent him. Am I close?

It does not appear that he forced you to have sex. So, he has no debt to you. He does not owe you anything for having had sex with you, or having had your virginity. From his perspective, because you happily went along with his sexual appetite, you liked it as much as he did, were on the road to liking it as much as he did, or were willing to cheerfully accomodate him. He sensed a commitment from you, and your mindset was more like "not if I don't feel into it".

I saw you wrote that you should not have married him. So, you intellectually understand your role in this. But, do you get this at an emotional level? Are you at peace with the concept that his needs matter as much as yours and that he does not owe you anything for having had sex with you?

If not, your marriage probably will continue to spiral downward. He, like nearly all men, does not feel he owes you. To him, the sex was for both of you. He would not have bothered if you were honest with your feelings. His responsibility to meet your needs ends when you stop meeting his.

If I am anywhere close to the mark on this, I'm sorry for what you are going through. I've lived through how bad it makes both spouses feel. As much as you resent him for your current circumstance, he resents you for what he feels in a sense of entitlement. Moreover, he probably doesn't feel anything he does will make you place his need equal to yours, so he's tuned out and doing his own thing to some extent.

At this point, all you can really do is examine yourself and your attitudes about sex and whether you like your husband to want to change under any circumstances (because he could improve himself and you still would not want to meet his need). If not, then you need to find a way to end this gracefully and let him move on to someone who appreciates his level of drive.

Even if this marriage ends, I would strongly recommend you examine your sexual outlook anyways. If you do have a sense that providing sex is a bigger sacrifice than whatever the guy does or that it makes you more deserving, you are headed for further relationship issues. Guys in general will sniff that out pretty quickly, not tolerate it, and move on.

Hope this helps, and best of luck to both of you in resolving this and moving forward.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

DTO said:


> If I am anywhere close to the mark on this, I'm sorry for what you are going through. I've lived through how bad it makes both spouses feel. As much as you resent him for your current circumstance, he resents you for what he feels in a sense of entitlement. Moreover, he probably doesn't feel anything he does will make you place his need equal to yours, so he's tuned out and doing his own thing to some extent.


Maybe it's a crude analogy but I feel at this point that our physical relationship is like a car that has not been started in several years, sitting on blocks. Sure, it may crank and sputter if you try, and it may run for a while if you replace the fluids, but ultimately a lot of work may be needed to run as it was designed (seals, gaskets...) a lot more work than one may want to put into it.

If it is a truly special car (like my friend's 1966 baby blue Mustang) then it is worth the expense and effort. If it's 'basic transportation' it may not be worth the effort, or any effort.

Ultimately, I feel that LD Stage IV is so detached from the reality of sex as part of a healthy married couple's life that any sexual encounter after a major dry spell will be seen as mocking the entire relationship. I mean, come on, you reject such and such for months at a time then the planets align twice a year and he/she is expected to fall for it?

Maybe I'm too angry to think this straight (imagine that) but I got to thinking this way only after a relatively brief time - maybe 1 or 2 years - I would really like to sort out my own feelings here, in the sense that merchant marine sex is better than no sex, or in the sense of finding the whole exercise pointless. I find it is not easy to stay focused on being a reasonable person (for what?) and really don't like where the whole thing is going. 

I remember a saying from my younger days. "Feed a dog once and throw a stone ten times at him and he will think, well, he fed me once, he may feed me again. Feed a cat ten times and throw one stone at her, and she'll go, well, he threw one stone at me, he may throw another." 

Too many boards for too many issues seem to suggest "radical acceptance". I'm not so sure if I should meow or woof.


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

DTO said:


> Well, I think that this is the crux of the situation, and that is because (with a few differences) you and your H could be me and my XW.
> 
> There is a contradiction here; it's important to point out IMO because you need to look even-handedly at your situation before you can effectively fix it.
> 
> ...


Thanks, this was a well thought out post, it gave me lots to think about.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------

