# Waiting for sexual results from manning up



## Night Owl (Feb 16, 2011)

As a new member I'd like to first say a big thanks! I've been checking these boards for the past few months and have gotten some excellent advice and insight into my marriage problems.

I have to say I tend to be quite analytical and details-oriented so this may go on a bit long. I just feel some need to get advice and to vent a bit too.

Background - we've been married for 11 years, now in early forties late 30s. 2 lovely daughters 8 and 4 yrs old. Through our marriage we have always gotten along very well generally but lots of ups and downs. This has included our sex life which has been really varied through the years - no exact upward or downward trend.

That general tendency changed last year. I gradually started noticing some coolness, complaining, and at times downright disrespectful behaviour throughout spring and summer. This was not happening all the time and we still had periods when we were very close and warm with each other. However, she started on more about things such as how I did things wrong when helping around the house. One time I couldn't find something and she said *could I have such a stupid husband?'

The last straw seemed to have been when one day I was cooking dinner for myself and the girls (she wanted to eat something else) and she didn't agree with how I was making it but was too p***d off with me to give me advice on how she thought it should be done. After that she found about an hour later that I had put the wrong item in the wrong recycling box. After she pointed out my mistake she made a comment like 'we don't have to be together anymore' to which my first admittedly stupid reply was 'over the recycling?' 

Anyways we had our talk that night and she said in her own exact words ' I can't find your attractive point'. She actually said during this conversation that I was a 'nice guy'. No exact reason was given except maybe stress from a number of things like trying to find a good job and being unable to see her family for a long time as they are in another country. Neither of us actually got really upset during this conversation which I think was a good thing. Inside, however, I was totally shaken up.


In the meantime I also tried to find out more info on why this could be occurring and came upon TAM. The Men's Clubhouse seem to really strike a chord with it's stuff on Nice Guys and sure enough most of it applied to me. My first attempts at manning up were quite clumsy - I often pointed out things I felt wronged about days later which made her say I was too sensitive. I tried talking about our situation at times but quickly learned she didn't want to talk about her feelings. 

Oh yeah, about the possibility of an EA or PA. I've definitely had major thoughts about this and can't find any evidence. She is totally open with her phone and email and is a SAHM with our four year old. That's not to say that I'm so naive to think she would never cheat.

On a major note, though, I started to learn to pass fitness tests. One big one came on our anniversary when she (jokingly?) said to our daughter 'in this year do you think mommy should find a new daddy? My daughter was busy with drawing and didn't answer. That my wife could even make a comment like that made me realize how much respect I lacked from her.My response was to go to the kitchen, call my wife over and tell her calmly and sternly that I was putting up with that kind of comment, not to mention in front of our daughter. She really looked surprised and apologized. 

Any ways to make a long story short, since early Dec things between us have improved to where we are having fun and enjoying time together. I am pursuing my hobbies, going out more with friends and doing some of the emotional thermostat stuff. Mostly trying to get rid of my nice guy tendencies and regain my confidence and sense of self. The number and level of fitness tests has gone down. 

The only problem area is the big one for me - sex. Yes we have it once or twice a month but she is still obviously not into it yet like she was just before this thing started. There are a few hints for the better - she gave me oral last week (first time in a long time). Even though I have tried to keep things warm (my thermostat is not set too low) and I'm gaining confidence the spark is not there for her yet. 

Recently she has said that I don't need to change (from being a nice guy- I haven't talk about it but she saw the book) and that it was not my fault that she had lost her attraction. She also told me that she felt pressured by me to change her feelings and that I should just relax more about things. She says she is doing her best. That's true she is saying ILY more, initiating hugs and .

Thing is if this sex situation doesn't change it will lead to divorce sooner or later. I'd like advice on how I can change things more to increase the amount and quality of sex. Also how long should I wait for some change to happen? 

Any advice would be great - including from those who don't agree with manning up! Thanks


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## Neil (Jan 5, 2011)

Night Owl said:


> Recently she has said that I don't need to change (from being a nice guy- I haven't talk about it but she saw the book) and that it was not my fault that she had lost her attraction.



That to me "is the test"...

She obivoulsy knows you are "manning up" and changing. Go back to mr Nice Guy, and well, draw your own conclusions.

Keep manning up, and stay manned up


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Neil,

I am in the same boat as you although my scenario the intimacy just steadily decreased over time. It never stopped because I insisted on it however I can tell she it just tolerating it and of course I would constantly ask if I could do something better to get her in the mood which led to my ultimate death spiral. Since we had a big blowup over this and was ready to leave because I felt hurt, rejected, resentment etc, She has been doing a better job and I appreciate the effort, but she is not still into yet. Based on the advice of others I had initiated and if she backs off I just go do something else (honestly it still hurts at little but not as much as before). Of course I long for the day when she would show a genuine interest. But I have to continue on myself and if and when it comes great, if not that I am also accepting that she might not be the right person for me.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Night Owl said:


> Thing is if this sex situation doesn't change it will lead to divorce sooner or later.


This langague is an example of not manning up. It is saying that something other than you "the man" is in control of the situation. When you restate this sentence in a manned up way, you will have your answer to the question.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Night Owl,

Attractiveness is a subconscious thing.

To quote a rather infamous poster here, it's "primal".

She has no idea what she's talking about when she says it's "not your fault that she lost it".

Keep reading the stuff by coops and MEM.

But, be careful not to use scorecards. What this is about is not "what you can get", but how you feel about yourself.


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## marcopoly69 (Sep 7, 2010)

I think you need to talk to her away from the kids, house, jobs in a neutral place and have to tell her how you feel...she needs to know that you are suffering because you dont have one of the most important things you need to feel loved....that any man needs to feel loved....and that you both need to seriouly try to figure out how you can have it back...otherwise, the marriage will fail....sex is important part of feeling close to someone, even more for a man...so the longer you go without it, the longer you will feel disconnected to her and that with time will kill the love.....i think she needs to know more about men sexuality and heart...she has a problem that is keeping her from being able to enjoy her marriage to you and that is an issue she needs to get out...she must tell you why she thinks she is not attracted to you anymore....you need to tell her that you need to make love to her and feel that she wants to make love to you because this is the way you feel loved the most...and if you cant have it you need to know what are the reasons so you both can work at them......she needs to understand that you can go without this form of feeling close and loved to and by your wife for so long before you start recenting her...it will happen...trust me....you will start thinking in terms not so very nice in your mind when thinking about her after a while of feeling lonely and recentfull....dont let it go there....make sure she understand very well how you feel....and educate her....talk to her as much as you can in a neutral place and just put your heart on the table....no matter that you sound needed as long as aftewards, you dont mentioned again until the next talk.....communication is essential.....you MUST find out what is going on with her...what bothers her....good luck!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

And on this point I completely disagree. Sometimes people are just physically incompatible. 

It is great to be "stand up" and not someone treat you with disrespect. And at a healthy balance in the relationship you can honestly say to someone "I need a certain amount of physical intimacy to feel happy". 

BTW - lets be honest here. That IS true. You can be the ultimate stand up person - man or woman. You can be an expert at dealing with anyone who is disrespectful to your boundaries. But if your partner is determined to have a sexless marriage you are likely to find that a very unhappy situation. 

At the extreme end of this spectrum are people who say "no one else can make you happy". And I violently agree with that. And I will gladly add that a sufficiently incompatible marital partner can MAKE YOU UNHAPPY. 

There are a lot of things you can do that tend to increase desire. In order from easiest to hardest to execute:
- Fitness - especially getting a V shape - 50 billion Harlequin romance novels can't be wrong
- Humor - corny humor is a turn off - light banter a turn on and it is a skill that can be learned
- Having an edge - and this too can be learned though not easily. It does NOT refer to being mean per se. But there is an emotional roughness to it that many people find appealing

That said you could do ALL this and still have serious sexual incompatibility.

I think the OP is making good progress. Without respect you have nothing. 



Hicks said:


> This langague is an example of not manning up. It is saying that something other than you "the man" is in control of the situation. When you restate this sentence in a manned up way, you will have your answer to the question.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

>>At the extreme end of this spectrum are people who say "no one else can make you happy". And I violently agree with that. And I will gladly add that a sufficiently incompatible marital partner can MAKE YOU UNHAPPY.<<

That is absolute truth.

Without going into too much detail, I can tell you my ex wife was about the worst person I could have married.

Once I realized I was set to lose my children (literally) as a result of that relationship, I manned up enough to get out.

And then the REAL journey started.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

I came on this and other sites for a different reason, but it all came down to the fact that my wife doesn't love me. Hasn't for a while. May never has. Is not attracted to me, Hasn't been in a while. Maybe never was. And in the year + I've been trolling, I have yet to see a success story regarding winning back that love that was lost. 

See your mistakes and change?
- Too late. She will always be afraid that after she gives her love to you again you will revert back to that man she hates. 
- Who cares? She didn't commit to this new person.That's not who she married. She has no obligation to fall in love with that person.

I hate to say it man, but my informal research tells me that you are in a battle with a VERY low sucess rate.

So, how did I come out of it? I don't care any more. I've bettered myself for me. I go out with friends. I enjoy my life. She can rot on her sofa watchingTV. I'm going to live. And although I'm not lookingfor it, I don't know what I'd do if I met someone who was attracted to me. A woman that would enjoy my kisses? That woman will never be my wife. I understand that. I also understand I only get one shot at life and I'll be damned if I'm going to live it miserably just because my wife threw in the towel years ago and doesn't care to work on it.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

Just tell her what you want to do sexually earlier in the day. A specific sex act / plan for bed time.

Are you ten second kissing her? Sexy Moves: The Ten Second Kiss


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

10 second kiss? Yeah, right. My wife would be at the toilet hurling after 5. 

Better yourself. Go find someone who WANTS to kiss you for 10 seconds.


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## Mike188 (Dec 29, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> - Humor - corny humor is a turn off - light banter a turn on and it is a skill that can be learned
> - Having an edge - and this too can be learned though not easily. It does NOT refer to being mean per se. But there is an emotional roughness to it that many people find appealing
> .


More explination please?


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## marcopoly69 (Sep 7, 2010)

MrK said:


> I came on this and other sites for a different reason, but it all came down to the fact that my wife doesn't love me. Hasn't for a while. May never has. Is not attracted to me, Hasn't been in a while. Maybe never was. And in the year + I've been trolling, I have yet to see a success story regarding winning back that love that was lost.
> 
> See your mistakes and change?
> - Too late. She will always be afraid that after she gives her love to you again you will revert back to that man she hates.
> ...



This is not helpful....but i understand your need for venting and frustration....


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## marcopoly69 (Sep 7, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> And on this point I completely disagree. Sometimes people are just physically incompatible.
> 
> It is great to be "stand up" and not someone treat you with disrespect. And at a healthy balance in the relationship you can honestly say to someone "I need a certain amount of physical intimacy to feel happy".
> 
> ...



But you have to give it a shot before you get out....remember this guy is here because he wants to save his marriage.....and we should try to help, at least those of us who can related to what someone may need to find some advise, guidance....


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Atholk said:


> Just tell her what you want to do sexually earlier in the day. A specific sex act / plan for bed time.
> 
> Are you ten second kissing her? Sexy Moves: The Ten Second Kiss


Without going into great detail, this is worth the read.

Just do it.


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## Night Owl (Feb 16, 2011)

Thanks everyone for your responses. You've given me a lot to think about. 

Conrad & Atholk, I checked out the 10 second kiss on the blog and will definitely give it a try. It'll have to wait a little while though because she's coming down with the stomach flu that I had last week. Also Conrad - point taken about not using scorecards - focussing on just getting sex without working on myself as well would be amazingly shallow.

Marcopoly69 - your advice is appreciated but in my case it's a no-go. This is because she has specifically told me that she doesn't want to talk about sex and attraction, and besides we have discussed it three times already since this thing started. To start another conversation after having this clear message from her would make me look incredibly needy and push her away more. It's much better for us to enjoy spending time together and with the kids and having positive experiences to build our relationship on. As well, in sex with my wife actions have always spoken louder than words.

MEM you sounded somewhat pessimistic, not like other posts I've seen from you. Was that because you were responding to Hicks comment? Contrary to what it seems, divorce is not imminent in my case (yet), but I have a problem with brooding over my problems which leads to some negative thinking. This generally happens when I'm by myself and i don't share this with my wife, but it can lead to me focussing on the issue too much. Anyways, as for the three desire points you mentioned:
1) Fitness - I'm slimming down to my lowest weight since university and doing weights to keep toned. This weekend she said I look good in my swimsuit.
2) Humour - This is fairly good but I'm somewhat reserved and don't naturally come up with jokes. Sometimes I feel pressure to find something funny to say. Having said that - I've always been this way, including when i first met her. We do have some good banter, one of the most recent when I teased her about her speeding ticket saying now you;re beating me in tickets 2 to 1, to which she replied I out numbered her in fender dents and started a fun discussion about an expensive topic.
3) Having an edge - a hard one for me as over the course of the marriage i have become more gentle. In the first part of our marriage I had this in droves because I did my own thing and didn't worry about what my wife thought, probably too much so. However, over time and especially after children I started to think too much like the GOOD FAMILY MAN and lost some/most of this.
I'd have to echo Mike188 and ask for more explanation on 2 and especially 3.

MrK - I know the odds are hard but hopefully not so bad as you think. One reason I have for some hope is that we have come back from the sexless threat before. Around seven years ago she mentioned her thinking that she was still in love but didn't want to have sex anymore because she wasn't interested. I totally rejected this out of hand (as noted above I had an edge) saying I didn't want to be married to a friend, why would I have gotten married in the first place, lets get divorced and meet at Starbuck's once a month if we are friends. She responded by saying I could go screw other girls if i wanted, which I said I didn't want to do unless divorced. What ended up happening after this was we never spoke about it again but continued to have sex. For more than a year this lasted - she was friendly in bed but not into really into doing it. Eventually things just came around and improved (like the graph of a company on a stock exchange, always up and down) until 2009 when she really started taking the initiative in sex and enjoyed it more than even when we first started dating. Then, of course what started last year was the reason for this post. It seems like my wife is just this up and down kind of person. 

Neil, thanks for the encouragement - I'm definitely staying the course on this change.

Hicks - I'm wondering whether you mean I should say that I'm man enough to take control of the sexual situation or man enough to divorce her if I need to or both. 

Bill2011 - good luck in your situation - maybe what I wrote above can give you some encouragement.

I guess I'm still a nice guy because I managed to respond to everyone who replied.- LOL


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The playful stuff the OP mentioned mentioned about speeding tickets and fender benders - that stuff is great. Actually you pay attention and MANY small scuffles in the house can be dealt with in a playful manner. 

In fact - do a little exercise - think of the last couple weeks with your partner. And think through the situations where you are irritating each other. Oddly enough it is those moments of mild tension that - if you are clever can be converted into playful humor. 

As for having an edge - the thing helps me the most is lifting weights. Creates its own natural edge. If you want to construct some behavioral edge - well the strategy is simple, the execution just takes practice. 
- Talk LESS
- Use tone and body language more

Do not raise your voice - but use tone when you dislike what is happening. Loud = loss of control, tone = disapproval for how someone is treating you




Mike188 said:


> More explination please?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Night,
Sorry for seeming pessimistic. I will try to hit what I see as core to this whole dynamic. The LD partner does not start out feeling desire. They don't. And that is not their fault. However - and this is the difference between a great LD partner and a bad LD partner:
- The great partner is self aware and knows if they relax and let you warm them up they WILL get in the mood. 
- The bad LD partner immediately rejects the idea of sex because they "don't want to" at the moment

As for the "warmup" itself - therein lies most of the magic - or not. Some W like slow and gentle. Some like firm and insistent. And others like rough and demanding. Just to make it fun for us lads - wherever your female partner is on an "average" day, mid cycle she likely wants more sexual edge from you. There is some very solid biology behind that but it means that what on one day will get you hot sex, on another day might cause her distress. 

On a separate note, the way you handled the conversation about sex 7 years ago was textbook "edge". No conversation about how you felt. Short pointed discussion about consequences. Edge is fine. In fact edge is necessary. But as you have found edge without the other stuff that makes a man desirable results in a lot of "mechanical" sex. 

It is clear from reading your post that your goal is to create passion. And that comes from being less predictable, and more often playfully aggressive. It is common to lose sight of the fact that there is a giant world of difference between being "nice" and being "fun" to be with. You can be "fun" even while being mildy irritating - in a deliberate, controlled and non-sadistic manner. I DEFINITELY tease my W about some stuff - her driving - her cooking - etc. Never about stuff that she is truly insecure about. 




Night Owl said:


> Thanks everyone for your responses. You've given me a lot to think about.
> 
> Conrad & Atholk, I checked out the 10 second kiss on the blog and will definitely give it a try. It'll have to wait a little while though because she's coming down with the stomach flu that I had last week. Also Conrad - point taken about not using scorecards - focussing on just getting sex without working on myself as well would be amazingly shallow.
> 
> ...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Night Owl,

I know you were joking, but there is truly nothing wrong with being courteous, supportive, and polite.

There is something wrong with being a doormat - in hopes of not making waves, so you may get lucky.

I had to stand up on Valentine's Day. Of course, it resulted in hurt feelings. The next day - about as much passion as I can possibly handle. And, I can handle plenty.

It's not a "scorecard" at all.

It's about partnership.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Yes, there comes a point in time where you have to be direct and give a consequence for sex itself, just as you are doing in other areas.


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## Night Owl (Feb 16, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Night,
> Sorry for seeming pessimistic. I will try to hit what I see as core to this whole dynamic. The LD partner does not start out feeling desire. They don't. And that is not their fault. However - and this is the difference between a great LD partner and a bad LD partner:
> - The great partner is self aware and knows if they relax and let you warm them up they WILL get in the mood.
> - The bad LD partner immediately rejects the idea of sex because they "don't want to" at the moment
> ...


MEM If great LD is 10 and bad LD is 1 my wife would score about a 4. She is friendly and approachable in the "warm-up" if you can call. I generally know the right approach with her because when the sex was good my techniques became natural. In the periods when she is showing less desire she has an unusual problem in the she becomes ticklish in some areas like her breasts, tummy, back, etc. It can be only one place or in many places depending on the session and can come and go during the session. Basically she can't control it and of course I have to adjust but what can you do on some nights when this ticklish zone is everywhere? Anyways, she usually just asks me to go inside her and then she stops being ticklish but after that we've lost all sense of foreplay. This is not a recent phenomenon but has happened any time her drive has been lower in our marriage. Has anybody ever heard of this problem before? I should probably post on the Sex and Marriage forum. I would think it was the funniest sexual problem in the world if it weren't happening to us.

Well, I'll finish griping and say that I do think the problem is psychological and just reflects that fact that this is involved in her perception of our relationship in general. I'll have to work on building more passion, as you suggested - teasing her about things, being less predictable. 

I recently decided to try out this technique when I noticed the basement light was left on when I came home. Wasting electricity is a pet peeve of both of us, but especially my wife. I came up saying 'who left on the light?' to which my daughters both said 'not me' . Wife says ' hmm I guess...did I leave it on this morning?' Me (not too seriously) ' Hmmm Are you getting forgetful?' then walk away. A few seconds later she says playfully ' Are you going to punish me?' after which I came back and gave her a few playful slaps on the rear. This kind of joking really does seem to make us both more cheerful and relaxed. 

I think my wife actually hopes that I do get more challenging and regain some of the edge I had (without the negative that goes with it). Her personality is very strong and when she states her mind it's very direct.She has said she respects her sister because her sister is so good at arguments and usually won them when they were growing up. I guess I'll have to step up my efforts. (Lucky I'm not married to her sister LOL)


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

marcopoly69 said:


> This is not helpful....but i understand your need for venting and frustration....



Not helpful? Thanks. I've spent over a year on this and other sites trying to overcome pretty much the exact same problem the OP is having. I've shared my experiences on this post you panned and have given my analysis of the hundreds of posts I've read on the topic. 

There is a near ZERO percent sucess rate of winning back a wife who has fallen out of love with you. NEAR ZERO. I have, MANY times, challenged someone to prove me wrong. I'm still waiting for someone to do so. So who's not helpful? The poster saying to "change yourself, hang in there, keep trying, she'll come around" or the one that gives advice that may salvage a little bit of happiness over the remainder of this man's life?


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## Night Owl (Feb 16, 2011)

Conrad said:


> Night Owl,
> 
> I know you were joking, but there is truly nothing wrong with being courteous, supportive, and polite.
> 
> ...


Conrad - I like to joke but I'm taking your advice seriously. I probably have been overly concerned with not being a doormat recently and I'm still trying to find the line as to where I should set my boundaries. I've made a lot of mistakes sometimes. 

Last week I had the flu but went to work and my stomach was still cramping up. When I came home and my wife asked how I was feeling, I told her, she said what did you have to eat or drink? I told her all including an extra large coffee with cream and sugar. She said ' no wonder your stomach's bothering you.' I replied ' It was only one and I felt fine this morning'. However, a minute later she started talking about eating habits again. Thinking this was another fitness test I started on with ' I told you I only had one' Turns out it was just her opening a conversation about her day. She responded badly to this saying ' you don't want to talk to me - fine' and stormed out of the kitchen. Later she told me that I probably should have just joked off the whole thing saying ' Oh yeah it might not have been a good idea to have a coffee after all' rather than getting defensive about it. It's a bit painful shooting yourself in the foot. I'm learning from my mistakes anyway.


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## Night Owl (Feb 16, 2011)

MrK said:


> Not helpful? Thanks. I've spent over a year on this and other sites trying to overcome pretty much the exact same problem the OP is having. I've shared my experiences on this post you panned and have given my analysis of the hundreds of posts I've read on the topic.
> 
> There is a near ZERO percent sucess rate of winning back a wife who has fallen out of love with you. NEAR ZERO. I have, MANY times, challenged someone to prove me wrong. I'm still waiting for someone to do so. So who's not helpful? The poster saying to "change yourself, hang in there, keep trying, she'll come around" or the one that gives advice that may salvage a little bit of happiness over the remainder of this man's life?


MrK I think your advice has been helpful. I don't need anyone to sugar-coat any advice to me and if they did it would defeat the purpose of this forum. I understand the point of your posts and realize that I have got to face reality - whatever that may be. 

As I posted previously, I have some grounds for cautious optimism. There are also some differences between you and me in that you say in your case the love was gone a long time ago, maybe never there - this is not true in our case. Also, your wife sits on the couch and makes no effort to improve things - mine is actually trying.

I'm definitely preparing myself for the worst case: divorce, if necessary. Wish me luck - either way.


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## Night Owl (Feb 16, 2011)

Hicks said:


> Yes, there comes a point in time where you have to be direct and give a consequence for sex itself, just as you are doing in other areas.


I guess we'll have to see if things can pan out well. If they don't hard choices will have to be made.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MrK,
What have you "changed" in your behavior and how has your W responded?




MrK said:


> Not helpful? Thanks. I've spent over a year on this and other sites trying to overcome pretty much the exact same problem the OP is having. I've shared my experiences on this post you panned and have given my analysis of the hundreds of posts I've read on the topic.
> 
> There is a near ZERO percent sucess rate of winning back a wife who has fallen out of love with you. NEAR ZERO. I have, MANY times, challenged someone to prove me wrong. I'm still waiting for someone to do so. So who's not helpful? The poster saying to "change yourself, hang in there, keep trying, she'll come around" or the one that gives advice that may salvage a little bit of happiness over the remainder of this man's life?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

NightOwl,
Hold on. I am calling BS on MrK as there are many threads here where the guys have made major steps forward. 

I am also going to emphasize something in that interaction about the lights. Your W instantly and positive responded to you being assertive. There is no bigger encouragement from a W than "aren't you going to punish me"? This is a direct sexual response. You acted assertive and she asked to see some edge. 

Keep doing that pattern. Mix it up - you might try - "I am going to punish you later for this" with a flat delivery. THAT is edge. See how she reacts. My guess is you will be pleasantly surprised. 




Night Owl said:


> I guess we'll have to see if things can pan out well. If they don't hard choices will have to be made.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Night Owl said:


> Conrad - I like to joke but I'm taking your advice seriously. I probably have been overly concerned with not being a doormat recently and I'm still trying to find the line as to where I should set my boundaries. I've made a lot of mistakes sometimes.
> 
> Last week I had the flu but went to work and my stomach was still cramping up. When I came home and my wife asked how I was feeling, I told her, she said what did you have to eat or drink? I told her all including an extra large coffee with cream and sugar. She said ' no wonder your stomach's bothering you.' I replied ' It was only one and I felt fine this morning'. However, a minute later she started talking about eating habits again. Thinking this was another fitness test I started on with ' I told you I only had one' Turns out it was just her opening a conversation about her day. She responded badly to this saying ' you don't want to talk to me - fine' and stormed out of the kitchen. Later she told me that I probably should have just joked off the whole thing saying ' Oh yeah it might not have been a good idea to have a coffee after all' rather than getting defensive about it. It's a bit painful shooting yourself in the foot. I'm learning from my mistakes anyway.


Owl,

What I've found is that boundary enforcement is a process.

What therapists call "staying present" (not jumping to conclusions) is important, but once the grinding starts, it's time to end things (for now)

You simply thought the grinding was starting. It never hurts to throw in a dash of humor at that point just to see if that's where things are really headed.

If they are, a short, "I don't like where this is headed" is more than sufficient - as you exit stage left.

Later on, one (or both) will likely wish to re-visit the topic. Or perhaps not. Either way, lessons get learned - and dignity remains intact.


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## Night Owl (Feb 16, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> NightOwl,
> Hold on. I am calling BS on MrK as there are many threads here where the guys have made major steps forward.
> 
> I am also going to emphasize something in that interaction about the lights. Your W instantly and positive responded to you being assertive. There is no bigger encouragement from a W than "aren't you going to punish me"? This is a direct sexual response. You acted assertive and she asked to see some edge.
> ...


Thanks for the encouragement. I didn't really think the success rate was zero.

I'll definitely be doing more to show an edge. There's been an improvement over the past few weeks for sure, even today when we were watching movies she was leaning on me more than she has in a long time. I'll continue following the advice all of you have given me. Thanks.


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## Night Owl (Feb 16, 2011)

Conrad said:


> Owl,
> 
> What I've found is that boundary enforcement is a process.
> 
> ...


Conrad
I'll definitely have to work on reading these situations better, especially disengaging from an over-emotional situation. I always feel like I have to solve the problem soon no matter what. This is just a problem I have to change by myself.

I think feeling I over-reacted by mistake is still better than feeling like a doormat. 

As for re-visiting this particular topic it's not likely, but I'll be better prepared in the future.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Night,
I want to partition a bit here because I have now read literally thousands of threads of this type. While I cannot be truly quantitative (which would be my preference) I can give you some qualitative observations based on that large pool of observations. Your marriage falls into the "very fixable" category sexually because:
- Your W is working from a base where she does love you in a non-sexual way. You are a good guy. That is way bigger than you realize. BTW - lest you think I simply have an overactive imagination: 7 years ago - that back and forth about being friends and meeting monthly at Starbucks (priceless - absolutely priceless) produced an instantaneous result. She thought about losing you, instantly rejected that option and continued to have sex with you. 
- She respects you. A wife typically will not readily and easily own a mistake like she did about leaving lights on UNLESS she respects her guy. 
- She is "wired" to respond sexually to edge. This is big. Some women are not wired that way and have a low libido and generally are difficult to "ignite". Yours is cuing you to be more aggressive by linking aggression and sex via spanking. My W DEFINITELY does that. 
- You are smart AND capable of being quick on your feet. That means you can gradually up the teasing/banter factor. If I had a dollar for every guy who misread his W and sent her a box 'o chocolates or flowers instead of spending a half hour in edgy banter.... Certainly gifts are nice - but W most become "tolerant" to gifts quickly in terms of ignition. I have YET to meet a woman who likes edgy banter, but the sexual impact has faded.
- You are practical - already lifting weights - bravo
- In bed: Maybe some cologne she really likes
- Clothing: Maybe she can cue you towards some stuff she really likes on you

The type combo - you and her - is at the high end of fixable....

If there were a betting pool I would drop a couple Franklins on this turning out very well for both of you will both get just as much incremental quality of your M. 



Night Owl said:


> Thanks for the encouragement. I didn't really think the success rate was zero.
> 
> I'll definitely be doing more to show an edge. There's been an improvement over the past few weeks for sure, even today when we were watching movies she was leaning on me more than she has in a long time. I'll continue following the advice all of you have given me. Thanks.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Night Owl said:


> Conrad
> I'll definitely have to work on reading these situations better, especially disengaging from an over-emotional situation. I always feel like I have to solve the problem soon no matter what. This is just a problem I have to change by myself.
> 
> I think feeling I over-reacted by mistake is still better than feeling like a doormat.
> ...


Your wife sees an "overreaction to a mistake" as a doormat.

Especially if that overreaction comes with big emotions.

When a spouse sees you as a child = unattractive.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Night,
> I want to partition a bit here because I have now read literally thousands of threads of this type. While I cannot be truly quantitative (which would be my preference) I can give you some qualitative observations based on that large pool of observations. Your marriage falls into the "very fixable" category sexually because:
> - Your W is working from a base where she does love you in a non-sexual way. You are a good guy. That is way bigger than you realize. BTW - lest you think I simply have an overactive imagination: 7 years ago - that back and forth about being friends and meeting monthly at Starbucks (priceless - absolutely priceless) produced an instantaneous result. She thought about losing you, instantly rejected that option and continued to have sex with you.
> - She respects you. A wife typically will not readily and easily own a mistake like she did about leaving lights on UNLESS she respects her guy.
> ...


In case you are wondering Owl - I've been in this place too.

VERY fixable.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> I am calling BS on MrK as there are many threads here where the guys have made major steps forward.




I never said I didn't make major steps forward. And as long as I walked on those eggshells nice and softly, things would get a little better. But I'm not perfect and I'd slip-up. Suddenly she sees me again as whatever it is that she hates in me and we're back to square 1. She will never be able to give her love to me again. 

Even better. I don't even have to slip-up to go back to square 1. We went on a nice dinner and movie date once. I held her hand, she put her head on my shoulder. It was a really nice (or as nice as it can be between 2 people that are forcing themselves to stay together for the kids). Anyhow, we get home and are sitting together watching TV, and I make an innocent comment that had nothing to do with her or us (I'm still on eggshells, remember?). She hears it as something that the old emotionally abusive MrK would say and she goes off. Back to square 1, and I was the epitome of the "new me" all night. 

During this time, she'd play along for a little while. But almost immediately she would slip into her behaviors that would get her back to her comfort zone. I'll spare you the details of what that zone looks like, but suffice it to say that the less she had to see me, let alone talk to me, we were good.

I didn't just see a problem and give-up. I saw a problem, went on numerous relationship forums to see how I could fix it. Read hundreds (and hundreds) of posts. Then tried to fix it. I analyzed my results and saw that they were a lot closer to the VAST majority of failures I'd read about than the VERY few success stories. I then made my decision to give-up.

Now, before I get a slew of responders crucifying me for giving up on my marriage...

I'm no longer young. Nobody's going to grant me any more time to make up for past mistakes. I have a life to lead. The only one I'll ever get. I've got a job I have control over in which investing time will help me and my family. I have three kids in whom investing time will make me and them better people. I have lost weight and exercised more in order to improve my future for me and the ones who love me. Time devoted to any and all of these activities is MUCH better spent that trying to win back the love of someone who doesn't want to be won.

One last analogy. How many kids want to play in the NBA? A lot. How many will? Almost none. That doesn't mean kids should stop playing basketball. I won't even begin to discuss the good that organized sports play in the lives of young people. But what if, to little Joey, the ONLY thing he wants out of basketball is a ticket to the NBA? He has a dream, isn't that great? But, if somewhere along the line, some responsible adult doesn't sit him down and fully explain the odds of achieving his goal, he's going to have a tough fight. So, play basketball. Enjoy it. And yeah, someone will hit that lottery. But if you are only playing it for that one, unlikely goal, you WILL be disappointed.

So. I am happier today than I have been in years (which admittedly isn't saying much). Why? I don't expect ANYTHING from my wife. So when she doesn't provide it, I'm not disappointed. Granted, I'm not a piece of wood either and sometimes it bothers me. What do I do then? Try to make her love me again? No f**in' way. I go to my computer and work. I exercise. I'll play with my kids and their friends. All of those activities that make me and them better people. 

And lastly. It was HER that made the decision to check out of my marriage. SHE is the one who decided she didn't want to even tell me she did as opposed to work on the problem. She is the one that lied and gaslighted (I love that new term I learned here. It helped me realize that MAYBE it's not me that's insane)to make it look like it was all my fault. Why should I be the one that has to put all of the work into fixing it?

That's my advice. Take it or leave it. That's what these sites are for, right?


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## Ooogles (Feb 19, 2011)

Night Owl, I have some tips for you:

(1) Regarding the ticklishness, you are touching her too softly. I would recommend a firmer touch or rubbing her hair if she gets ticklish all over. Use kisses on her neck, on the tops of the feet and up her arms. In the middle of the day, kiss her arms like that just before you go off to work or something. Kiss her breasts through her clothes, the side of her hips while she's standing at the sink or something. Also, try to kiss her through her clothes during foreplay. Like up her spine. If she wears something low cut, just all of a sudden kiss her between her breasts, then go off to work. This will give her something to think about during the day. 

(2) The Basement light-was well played. She's looking for clever, yet sexy banter, "I left the lights on so I could turn you on, that's why." Look directly at her when you say it. Then just change the subject. Watch how fast she goes back to the subject. Then say "So I guess you want me to turn you on then, huh?" Then change the subject again.

(3) About doing things wrong when helping around the house, "could I have such a stupid husband?" your response should be to look her in the eyes and say "don't ever disrespect me that way." Now she knows it's disrespectful to you, she'll get negative consequences if she talks to you that way, and you will be more attractive to her. 

(4) Regarding the wrong item recycling box and we dont have to be together, say "Quit talking crazy. Think of a better solution. Put a label on the recycle summarizing what's what so you don't keep getting yourself aggravated and we can move on to more important things. Not 1000 items either because I'm not gonna look at it then." You redirect, take charge, give a solution, then move on. BTW, when you responded "over the recycling" it made me laugh because your personality takes things so literally. 

(5) Regarding the "I can't find your attractive point" tell her "That's OK because other women can".

(6) As for cooking dinner, if she gets mad and doesn't like what you are cooking or how, tell her "Since you don't like what I'm cooking and won't say what you want, then you cook because I'm not a mind-reader." 

(7) As for "pointed out things I felt wronged about days later which made her say I was too sensitive." Yep, I can see this. 

"I tried talking about our situation at times but quickly learned she didn't want to talk about her feelings" Yep, she doesn't want to talk about her feelings. You have the kind of woman who wants solutions. 

(8) As for EA or PA, this is NOT likely. She's loves you and is loyal to you. 

(9) Regarding 'in this year do you think mommy should find a new daddy?" what you did was perfect. 

(10) Regarding the sex, tell her "The frequency of our sex isn't cutting it for me and wouldn't for the majority of men. Since I'm not celibate, I need sex at least X times a week. I need you to tell me what you want so we make this happen." 

(11) Regarding the sex point, fix stuff for her around the house, things that fall apart, do NOT leave them that way. Handle it without being asked, she will give you good sex. Think repairman fantasy.

Keep up the good work!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MrK,
How old is your youngest child and what are your plans when that child leaves for college?




MrK said:


> I never said I didn't make major steps forward. And as long as I walked on those eggshells nice and softly, things would get a little better. But I'm not perfect and I'd slip-up. Suddenly she sees me again as whatever it is that she hates in me and we're back to square 1. She will never be able to give her love to me again.
> 
> Even better. I don't even have to slip-up to go back to square 1. We went on a nice dinner and movie date once. I held her hand, she put her head on my shoulder. It was a really nice (or as nice as it can be between 2 people that are forcing themselves to stay together for the kids). Anyhow, we get home and are sitting together watching TV, and I make an innocent comment that had nothing to do with her or us (I'm still on eggshells, remember?). She hears it as something that the old emotionally abusive MrK would say and she goes off. Back to square 1, and I was the epitome of the "new me" all night.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ooogles,
This is an absolutely stellar post. 

Night,
You are already headed this way so it should not be difficult. 

I DO think it is possible the ticklishness/and her desire for you to be aggressive may link. So possibly the rough/aggressive style will make this go away. 

That said my W sometimes has sore/hypersensitive breasts. Really bums me out as that greatly reduces foreplay fun. I mention that because this ticklish thing "may" be hard to solve. 




Ooogles said:


> Night Owl, I have some tips for you:
> 
> (1) Regarding the ticklishness, you are touching her too softly. I would recommend a firmer touch or rubbing her hair if she gets ticklish all over. Use kisses on her neck, on the tops of the feet and up her arms. In the middle of the day, kiss her arms like that just before you go off to work or something. Kiss her breasts through her clothes, the side of her hips while she's standing at the sink or something. Also, try to kiss her through her clothes during foreplay. Like up her spine. If she wears something low cut, just all of a sudden kiss her between her breasts, then go off to work. This will give her something to think about during the day.
> 
> ...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Mr. K,

Ever heard of fitness testing?


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Mr. K,
> 
> Ever heard of fitness testing?





> She hears it as something that the *old emotionally abusive *MrK would say and she goes off. Back to square 1, and I was the epitome of the "new me" all night.


Reading comprehension exam, part 84:

Which is more likely:

A. MrK's wife is for real, actual reasons--his past abusive behavior to which he confesses--hurt, and still hurt and wary
B. MrK's wife is bound by a questionable and specious amateur-psychology concept and forced by her genetics and or intrinsic-woman-ness-thing (aka "cooties") to pretend to be hurt by his past abusive behavior to see if he can still be the strong man she wants him to be by clearly not giving a sh-t that he upset and hurt her with his past abusive behavior, especially when he acts like he used to towards her
C. MrK really seems to have stopped trying to take responsibility for his own behavior or feels resentful for having done so only to realize that other people are not in fact under his control
D. A & C


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Not sure why the sarcasm was necessary.

To each their own.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

How about you take a clear view of the world from her perspective and then shove it down her throat relentlessly.

Walk in her shoes, ask her questions to get it right and focus 100% on her. If you give this to her and she still acts like a dead fish that can't stand you then maybe it is time to stop reading books and start learning about the art of divorce.

How much do you love her? Are you willing to get rid of your ego for a few weeks and slop around in what she sees as her life?

I'm just a woman so I might not have this man up thing right. I'd never suggest you shouldn't "stand up" but I would suggest you should sit down long enough to figure out what the actual problem is. I think that generally speaking it is less about who you are and more about who the unhappy person in the relationship is. The things she is saying are hurtful, horrible things. Why would she dare vocalize them? She's sending a message.


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## chingchang (Sep 21, 2010)

MrK said:


> So. I am happier today than I have been in years (which admittedly isn't saying much). Why? I don't expect ANYTHING from my wife. So when she doesn't provide it, I'm not disappointed. Granted, I'm not a piece of wood either and sometimes it bothers me. What do I do then? Try to make her love me again? No f**in' way. I go to my computer and work. I exercise.



I understand this...but is sounds like a very lonely path. This path is actually more lonely than being single...because at least when you're single you have hope; life becomes interesting because you never know what you might find. When you're trapped in a marriage like that...and the change you desire is not happening...life is just passing time...at best.

IMHO,
CC


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## chingchang (Sep 21, 2010)

Night Owl said:


> Thing is if this sex situation doesn't change it will lead to divorce sooner or later. I'd like advice on how I can change things more to increase the amount and quality of sex. Also how long should I wait for some change to happen?


I have the same question and a similar situation...except that I was way too Alpha for way too long. I'm different from you in that we're having sex 2X/week...but the quality isn't where I'd like it and it isn't near frequent enough. She enjoys it...very much...but she's just not into sex as much as she used to be...and certainly not near as much as me. I've learned to balance the Alpha with the Beta and taken time to really understand and appreciate her. She says she loves and likes me more now than ever before. Yet...this does not translate into the sex life that I need to be happy in this relationship. I think she is not filled by being a SAHM and some of that discontent translates into a reduction in sexual energy. This has been going on for many years and if things don't change soon I'll insist she get a job. Then...if things don't change we'll be divorcing. If we didn't have kids...I'd divorce now. I love her...very much...but she just isn't gettin' it done...

CC


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## Night Owl (Feb 16, 2011)

Thanks again for all the advice and encouragement.

This weekend I've been busy. Good thing -me and the wife connected on Sat so I ended up in bed rather than writing here late at night.:smthumbup: 

MEM & Conrad - I believe that you are right that this is fixable and am doing my best working towards this. As time goes on I realize that I don't have to be overly worried about making the absolute perfect response to everything but just to have a good time, enjoy some fun banter and deal with any challenges that come up in an effective way. Generally, the less serious I am the better the outcome- including over-reacting to something.

Ooogles, thanks for the incisive post - I'll definitely be putting those ideas in with the other great advice I've gotten. Remember though, a lot of this stuff she's said before is things I can't imagine her saying now plus I'm much better prepared to handle them. Only thing you got wrong - I'm almost as good as Mike Holmes around the house when it comes to repairmen fantasy - LOL.

I will try everyone's advice over this ticklish thing - possibly it's not so strange as it seems to me.

Trenton, you're right - these are extremely harsh things she's said. I honestly think that if she hadn't been so brutal I might have thought this would blow over without any effort on my part. I'm lucky to have a woman who will speak her mind rather than just keep things quiet and let everything fester. I'm trying to understand her point of view - this is not just one-sided, so that's why I've had discussions with her which have given me more insight into how she is feeling (as much as she's prepared to give). Remember discussions between us are generally unproductive because she's told me point blank she doesn't like to talk about these issues (and I don't particularly enjoy it either). Generally, though, we are really getting along better and it has been a steady thing, not just a short period of improvement. The one thing I have to say is I can control my own responses and attitude toward everything but in the end I can't control hers. 

Chingchang - I can understand your frustration a certain extent but are you maybe pressuring her too much to love you and show sexual affection? 

MrK - Total honesty - glad to hear you can you seem to have handled this situation and taken positive steps for yourself and family. I'm not sure what kind of advice I can give you. What exactly are the reasons why you don't divorce?


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

I've played my part in hijacking this thread for a little while because my situation is similar to the OP's. It's time to step out and get back to his problems. If anyone is that interested in "bailing as a choice", go ahead and start a new thread. In the meantime, I'll answer a few quick questions and let Night get on with fixing his problem.

From MEM
*How old is your youngest child and what are your plans when that child leaves for college*?

I'll have kids in the house for ten or more years, easy. The last two years of my life have been rough. If I can get through the next 10, anything else will be gravy. But not having the kids around 24/7 will open up my options. But even today, I've expanded my social life with friends who enjoy my company. That helps.



Conrad
*Mr. K,
Ever heard of fitness testing? *

Seen it in the title of other threads, but not even begun reading about it. I've got a little "relationship forum burnout", and have no interest in the theory du jour. Plus, I've given up, remember? I don't care. Plus, if it's what I think it is, I have no interest in games at this point. 


Less Disgruntled:
*Reading comprehension exam, part 84*:

A - You're just f***ing with me.
B - You are getting too detailed about my specific problem in someone els's thread.
C - I don't care enough to comment either way 


Ching Chang.
*sounds like a very lonely path. This path is actually more lonely than being single...because at least when you're single you have hope*

It is very lonely. I'm pretty good until she comes to bed (she likes her TV a hell of a lot more than she does me). The way she gets into bed every night and immediately turns her back to me and goes to sleep. Immediately, except for two words that make my skin crawl every time. I don't know if her sweet "goodnight honey" is one of her small token attempts to make life tolerable or just **** with me. Either way it's like fingernails on a blackboard. 


Night Owl.
*What exactly are the reasons why you don't divorce*?

I have three reasons. I'd go to hell and back for my kids. The thought of tearing apart this family that is my life and theirs is NOT an option. I don't know how it is for anybody. They are my oasis in a very dry existance.


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## chingchang (Sep 21, 2010)

MrK said:


> Night Owl.
> *What exactly are the reasons why you don't divorce*?
> 
> I have three reasons. I'd go to hell and back for my kids. The thought of tearing apart this family that is my life and theirs is NOT an option. I don't know how it is for anybody. They are my oasis in a very dry existance.


I understand this reasoning. The main reason I'm not divorced right now is because I don't want to tear-up my family. I'm very interactive with my kids and they would be destroyed if I divorced my wife. I could wait another 12 years when both will be out of the house...but it will hurt them then as well. Sometimes I think if I do it now they'll toughen-up...learn some life-coping skills and push on. Maybe that would be better than blind-siding them when they're 18. I don't know...

CC


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

My wife and I don't fight. We're even friendly towards each other. My kids don't know any better. My wife doesn' care. I'm the only one suffering. It's my problem. I just need to suck it up as long as I can. And while sucking it up, do what I have to do to stay sane enough to keep the family together.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MrK
Who is the primary wage earner?




MrK said:


> My wife and I don't fight. We're even friendly towards each other. My kids don't know any better. My wife doesn' care. I'm the only one suffering. It's my problem. I just need to suck it up as long as I can. And while sucking it up, do what I have to do to stay sane enough to keep the family together.


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