# Wife is home from vacation



## JMak00 (Jul 24, 2010)

I posted some time back about the situation with my marriage. Wife explained she wanted to divorce, no longer the person she wants to be, no longer in love with me, EA with ex and new communication with ex-fiance. She explains that she's hopeless about the marriage and is pursuing counseling for our children's sake (be good parents), they're 1 and 3. 

My problems were angry outbursts, breaking things, physically hitting myself, yelling. 

When we moved here to Oregon we had planned her and the kids going back to Michigan for the month of August to visit family. Before she left she indicated that she stopped communication with the ex bf, although she connected with her ex-fiance on FB (telling me there's nothing there and sharing their messages with me). 

While in MI she did text the ex-fiance to talk about his divorce, her struggles with us. She also contacted and txt'd quite a bit with the ex-bf the night before coming home. 

Now she's home. And I don't know how to handle myself. I want to save the marriage, of course. I want to be strong, confident, in control of my emotions but can't help crying at the thought of losing my family, can't help but want to ask her about a talk with her father about our marriage (she indicated that if he thought we should work on it that she would), request that she stop talking with the two ex's (drives me crazy), and ask that she work with me on the marriage. 

She just got home yesterday, slept on the couch. We talked awhile about how hard it was for her to leave her family in MI. We talked about some of things I did while they were gone. This morning I asked her what was happening with her and the exIfiance an she said they texted a few times and then she volunteered texting the ex bf the night before coming home. 

This morning she asked me about work...I asked if she really wanted to know or even talk about it explaining that it was hard right now. 

I've been in counseling since April. My wife recognizes the dramatic improvements. 

How do I do this?
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## greeneyeddolphin (May 31, 2010)

Well, the first thing you need to do is find out if she wants to work on the marriage or not. If she doesn't, then there's not much point to trying. If she does, then you have to decide what things you absolutely must see her do in order to move the marriage forward and get past the problems you've been having. For example, the contact with exes. Let's say you also have a problem with her not putting the dishes in the dishwasher when she's done. Which one is more important? Obviously the contact with exes is a bigger problem, so you address that and leave the dishes alone until your marriage is more stable and the bigger issues aren't issues anymore.

You say you asked her what was going on with her and the ex this morning. That to me sounds like you are just waiting around for her to make up her mind whether she wants in or out. Don't do that. Force her to make up her mind. Tell her you won't stand for this any longer and that if she doesn't stop communication with her exes, you will ______. But make sure whatever you threaten to do, that you actually can and will do. If you make a threat to do something and then don't do it, she'll see that she can continue to get away with whatever she wants.


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## JMak00 (Jul 24, 2010)

I don't believe that she does. This month away I was hoping she would rethink ending our marriage. Last night certainly wasn't the time to talk considering long day of travel. God I want to talk with her but I don't want to annoy or smother her or push her further away. 

I left the house crying this morning - cuz I was leaving the kids, she told me about the contact with both ex's...I'm a mess. 

I'll look into the violence program, Hunt, thanks for the suggestion.
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## JMak00 (Jul 24, 2010)

I don't even want to go home. I am so anxious, frustrated, upset. Why would she discuss her conversation with her dad about whether to work on this marriage with her ex-fiance and not with me? Why would she be reaching out to both guys rather than her girlfriends or sisters? 

I'm afraid I won't be able to focus on my boys because I'll be worrying about who she's texting and whether she's texted both today. 
I waited all month for them to come home and now I'm miserable all over again. How do people deal effectively with these kinds of emotions? My therapist says slow down and change the channel, self-soothe but how?
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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

1. Stop your woman's EAs. Until they stop, nothing will improve in your marriage. Nothing.

2. These violence outbursts, emotional displays, this all must end. Now. And this must come from YOUR leadership and direction. That means take active and deliberate steps, join this violence prevention program, and calmly tell your woman about your steps that you have ALREADY put in place. Do not make promises about this in any way, only AFTER you have already taken the action will it do any good to speak about it to your woman.

3. In this same attitude as number 2, pursue the marriage counceling. Not in some "honey I'll promise to do better" attitude, but a deliberate attitude that you are determine to fix what is needing to be fixed, and you are backing everything up with action.

These things will help.

I wish you well.


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## JMak00 (Jul 24, 2010)

I've scheduled my first anger mgmt session for next weekend. 

Unfortunately, my wife is sleeping in a different room and we have yet to talk about what's happening. In the meantime, she did say her dad was coming out for Thanksgiving and she offered him to stay at our house. I'm not trying to read into that at all but sheesh. I think I get that she's waiting for our current lease to come up in December before moving into separate places. In one sense I think I have until then to work on this...but she has not expressed a willingness to work on it. 

Last night we did share some laughs and it was nice, but at bed time...very cold. Didn't even say goodnight. 

This sucks. Part of says that if she's not going to work on this and she won't give up completely talking to the ex-bf then she should leave the house. We can't afford it, but she can ask her friends and family to help her out and explain to them why she needs their help.

She's looking for work and wants my help to gether a job just so she can move out when it's convenient for her. That's bull.
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## JMak00 (Jul 24, 2010)

Update: so we've chatted a bit here and there. Today she opened up a bit more and explained a couple of things:

First, she stopped caring about our relationship in April after an outburst of mine. 

Second, she doesn't care that her continuing contact with the old bf or ex-fiance bothers me. She knows it does but just doesn't care that it hurts me or the marriage. She figures I have hurt her so much during the marriage, well, she doesn't care. 

Third, she believes that if the changes I am making are real and sustained then she knows that our continued marriage is best for the kids, but maybe not for her. She says when she looks at me she sees herself being weak for staying in a marriage for so long despite all the hurt, anger, etc. 

She thought I was just sitting back expecting her to forgive because I was working on myself...essentially, I'm changing, why can't she get over it. I explained that wasn't my expectation at all and it would be unfair to have that expectation. I said it's taken yearts to get where we are and things can't change overnight. And if anyone thinks she should just get over that she should tell them to piss off because either they don't know how to forgive or they don't care enough to understand how hurt she has felt. 

She feels weak. That shed have to swallow her pride to remain in this marriage. 

She says that her ex-fiance has been really good to her as a friend. Both encouraging and seeing both sides of staying in the marriage or out of it. I haven't seen those msgs but I have seen others and theye talked about his current relationship and it's direction, his advice about getting a job, how things are going. I think it's a friendship, but the hurt from the contact with the ex-bf moves me to distrust the contact with the ex-fiance. My emotions tell me to be suspicious and my brain says it's a supportive friendship and neither appears to be talking about feelings for one another. 

Insight? Advice?

I have hurt this woman. It took me years to finally do something about it.
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## JMak00 (Jul 24, 2010)

The advice I need is how to talk to my wife. I listened well today, didn't argue, didn't get defensive, offered up my thoughts on how hard forgiving is, and thanked her for at least talking to me. 

I told I couldn't use words to convince her of anything, but that sustained actions over time and cleaning up my side of the street is what I was doing...

Good start?
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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

I have nothing new to add, as you are very much doing exactly what you need to be doing.

It is early in the game for this, but I want to plant a seed, for you to do with as you will.

This seed is just this. If, and I mean IF, in your relationship these things with you and your woman, the anger issues and the resentment and everything else between you two, are sincerely being addressed, IF the time comes that it is for you to invite your woman back into an intimate relationship with you, you MUST have in attitude and plan and presentation it is a NEW relationship altogether.

These things your woman is saying, are exactly this, she has no desire to be invited back into the old relationship, whether now or in even a year or two down the road after even the most perfect of improvements to yourself. 

So it is not only a "new you", it is a "new relationship".

I am hoping this is understood what I am trying to say.

I continue to wish you well.


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## JMak00 (Jul 24, 2010)

I think I understand. A new relationship...leaving behind resentment, anger, insecurities, guilt, all the garbage that had built up and up. Is this kinda what you're getting at?

I just need to figure out, for now, how to act around her. How can I do that, how can I demonstrate that I am not only changing my behavior, but that I am respecting her, caring for her, supporting her...without exacerbating her current feelings of weakness, dependency, etc.?

Thanks, BBW.
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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Anger produces adrenaline which is either:
- Poisonous if you are inactive while boiling over OR
- Rocket fuel for a good workout 

It is OK to feel angry about stuff. We all do. I try to simply remind myself to put away thoughts that make me very angry until I am in shorts, sneakers and a t-shirt ready to run, lift or both. And THEN I let myself think about anything that was bothering me and let the adrenaline loose while I run/lift it out of my system. When I am done I think about forgiveness and patience and the fact that nothing is improved by expressing fury at those we love. Whether or not your marriage survives, a consistent approach to managing your emotions will make all the difference in how your loved ones perceive you.




JMak00 said:


> I think I understand. A new relationship...leaving behind resentment, anger, insecurities, guilt, all the garbage that had built up and up. Is this kinda what you're getting at?
> 
> I just need to figure out, for now, how to act around her. How can I do that, how can I demonstrate that I am not only changing my behavior, but that I am respecting her, caring for her, supporting her...without exacerbating her current feelings of weakness, dependency, etc.?
> 
> ...


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

JMak00 said:


> I think I understand. A new relationship...leaving behind resentment, anger, insecurities, guilt, all the garbage that had built up and up. Is this kinda what you're getting at?


Exactly.

Do not always be bringing up the past, or to act in some tail between the legs manner, that is the trap not to fall into, to be inviting her back to the past. Do not seek her pity, seek only to demonstrate yourself.

In your actions and behavior, stand on what you are doing to improve yourself from your own leadership. When it is times to apologize, then apologize with integrity and sincerity, but be sure to show in action the implemented change already in motion. Words alone are worse than useless and can backfire unless backed up by the action.

And also this, no woman ever wants to be pursued by a guilt ridden, "beaten" man. Even whether you feel you deserve to pay penance, make sure the penance is paid for from your own leadership, action, and direction.



> I just need to figure out, for now, how to act around her. How can I do that, how can I demonstrate that I am not only changing my behavior, but that I am respecting her, caring for her, supporting her...without exacerbating her current feelings of weakness, dependency, etc.?
> 
> Thanks, BBW.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Simple, do not pursue her in a weak, dependent manner.

The other things, as in any relationship with any good man and woman, demonstrate in yourself the qualities that any woman is going to find attractive: Confidence, honesty, boldness, respect, and especially self control. 

And avoid behavior that demonstrates the opposite of these things.


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## JMak00 (Jul 24, 2010)

Update: we talked last night. When we talked a couple days ago I really just listened, had some comments, and let it be about her and what she needed to say. Last night she asked me if I had a second because she wanted to know what I was feeling, where I was with the marriage. 

And I told her: I love her and I am cleaning up myself and my side of the street to be a better person, father, husband. And that I hope it leads to her and I in a loving, respectful marriage where I support and satisfy her needs. 

She also told me I should share with her mt concerns about her talking to her ex-fiance. So I did: I'm somewhat concerned that it could lead to something like an EA and PA, but that I am trusting her and her explanation that he's being a good friend. I know the guy from years ago, he's been encouraging to her about our marriage, has a significant other, etc. I do trust, but I explained I am wary given the recent progression of the relationship with an ex-bf from being friendly to sexual temptation entering the picture. And that I have read far too much about a spouse's "just friends" moving to something else. She says she was lonely and couldn't talk to me so she talked to the ex-bf and it felt good to have attention and someone that responded to her when she texted. 

But I did tell her that I didn't think I could continue working on the marriage if the ex-bf stayed in the picture. I explained that it drove me crazy and I couldn't work with that. I said that I wasn't demanding anything of her but was telling her how it affected it me and what I could or couldn't do with him in the picture. Looked her dead in the eye and didn't waver. She didn't respond but was clearly thinking about it. 

Further I said that I wouldn'ttake the same position with the ex-fiance.

I also told her that I would ask her to fill out the LB questionnaire with me. I explained that while I could id the easy stuff, angry outbursts, that I couldn't easily id other things, e.g., when she might feel that my touches are only indicators of wanting sex as opposed to expressing tenderness, care, etc. She thanked me for sharing that with her. 

She's in a place where when she looks at me she doesn't feel proud of herself, that she was weak in tolerating the disrect and mistreatment. She also feels that there's an expectation that she just forgive, get over it, etc. I've said twice now that I don't have that expectation and it would be unfair to. 

Last night she slept in our bed for the first time since coming home from vacation. But only because the guest bed sucks. She talked to me about it to let me know that returning to the marital bed was uncomfortable for her. I asked why and she said she didn't want to give the false impression that she was back in the relationship or signaling intimacy. I said I understood and suggested she was trying to set boundaries and she agreed. No talking about us in bed at night. Her side, my side. I told her I would respect that.

Positive evening for me. I stood up for me. I was confident. I listened. I didn't take offense by what was said. I made headway understanding her side of things.
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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

THis is most heartening!

I thank you for sharing also for the benefit of so many on this board to see just exactly these right things to do!

I am confident you have the tools and understanding to move forward to where you are desiring to go, and I hope that you will continue to share as it is beneficial.


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## JMak00 (Jul 24, 2010)

It's hard! I still suffer from a lot of suspicion. I look at my wife's phone checking her phone log and texts...

Today she wrote her best gf that if she was going to do the living single thing that she needed to learn how to masturbate. Living single thing? Wtf? How am I supposed to interpret that?

Probably in no way other than that she's feeling an urge and shared that with her gf. But the living single part...come on...
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## JMak00 (Jul 24, 2010)

Overdue update:

Things are dramatically different, i.e., we're in a much better place.

Though we aren't dating, she's interested. Though we aren't being intimate (hugging, kissing, sex), she talks about struggling with it.

She and I have both read His Needs, Her Needs and both have really grabbed onto it and it has helped a bunch. However, we both recognize that we're beyond that book. In other words, that book would have been helpful years ago. So we think Harley's Love busters book is the one we want next.

I'm in the midst of an anger management program with a very well-known and successful specialist here in Portland, OR. We're both pleased with the results so far. 

While we're able to communicate better, joke and laugh with another, enjoy each other's company, some things are coming up:

She says she's struggling with being intimate with me. She explains thusly, that she has her walls up and doesn't how to let them down around me. During the day while I'm at work she's easily texting me and we're sharing our day's activities, etc. However, when she hears my voice or sees me, the walls go up. Like a dog who has been beaten over and over by a man wearing a hat, when the dog sees a man wearing a hat, it cowers. She's not cowering, but her inability to be intimate around me is frustrated.

I've suggested to her that I can patient and that I own my role in getting us where we are today and that that road has been a years-long one. So I think I should be patient. I'm still doing the things I need to do to clean me up and have already started to show her that I respect her, her decisions, and that I am supportive of her need to develop new relationships and friendships. I've also explained that I understand if she needs to see a longer stretch of time with my improved behavior for her to believe that it's real and permanent.

OTOH, lets get on with this. She says that she's here to stay and to fix this marriage. She says that she loves me, but can't let her walls down. If we're gonna make this work then we gotta have some physical contact. Holding hands, hugging, cuddling...not even kissing, but some physical contact. I sometimes drag my hand along her waist, massage her shoulders, etc., but get zero response and end up apologizing to her.

Also, something that has been frustrating the heck out of me...between May and July there was dramatic improvement in my attitude, behavior, how I was treating her and the children...she loved this. And we were sexually intimate in ways that were new to our relationship. We were close physically and emotionally, though she kept up the contact with the OM, albeit on a far less frequent basis. And then in quick succession two major things for me happened...I caught a pic on her phone attached to a text to the OM of her wearing lingerie that she bought for me and after having a very intimate conversation about what was happening and her promising to end contact, three days later finding out that she was telling him she was addicted to him. I flipped that entire weekend. berating myself as terrible man, husband, lover and father, angry with her, snippy with the kids. 

That's been the only outburst since May. I feel that she played a strong role in outcome (the repeated broken promises to stop the contact with the OM and the pic). And now when talking about how she was able to let her walls down in June and July and but can't now, her thinking is that she's terribly hurt how all that progress in May, June, and July so quickly fell apart. And I'm thinking, well, yeah, absent her wanting to send such an intimate and inappropriate pic to the OM the day before we left for a beach vacation for her birthday and yet another fail at stopping the contact following the pic, there is no outburst. I feel like she takes zero responsibility for contributing to that reaction.

In the meantime, I have asked her for a little slack. In other words, rather than being so quick to believe that I will respond angrily to something she does/says as I have during much of our relationship, that she should think about the last 5-6 months and how I have been changing. To slow down before jumping to a conclusion. And to stop thinking she knows what I want, want to hear, or am thinking and letting that filter what she says.

Any insight how I can help set her at ease, to help those walls come down? Or is that a decision for her to make as to whether she's willing to and going to on her own?

Thanks, again, for your thoughts and responses.


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