# Living in doubt



## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

About 2 years ago I suspected my wife of having an affair. I did my best to uncover what was going on at the time but I was never able to figure out the truth. She was definitely being secretive about something but I do not know for sure if she was cheating. I asked at the time but shed denied everything including her behavior which I did not imagine.

It's very possible she did cheat but its also completely possible she was being secretive about something else entirely. Not knowing is driving me crazy. It's been 2 years and I still think about it everyday.

While I would not say our marriage was terrible 2 years ago, it was also not at its best. Currently our relationship is as good as it's ever been. We rarely argue and the intimacy we once had is returning. Because things are improving I'm hesitant to bring this issue up with her. It's possible I was just being insecure and my suspicion could damage our progress. I don't know how to bring this up without both her being upset and me looking weak/insecure. I want to just forget it but it's on my mind daily. 

In the past my questioning her has lead to her getting angry so I really don't think I can get any results that way. I've suggested counseling before but she didn't want to go so that's also out.

I feel like I have no options since talking about it is not likely to produce any truths and will most likely result in a fight. Basically I'm left to compartmentalize this but it's a bit draining to constantly asses ones thoughts and actions to make sure I'm not projecting anger/suspicion about this issue.

Any thoughts, just wanted some insight from people who have been here.


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## caruso (Sep 23, 2016)

If she's not actively involved with another guy at this time then it will be rather difficult if not impossible to find any evidence.

Since you don't want to confront and you doubt she'd come clean if you did then that's not an option either.

Don't really have an answer other than history usually repeats and if you see the signs then start investigating while the trail is hot.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

The best advice is always - Don't confront until you have solid evidence that she can't deny or excuse away. If she didn't admit to cheating two years ago, she's definitely not going to now. Drop it.

But if you get that gut feeling she's cheating again, we can give you plenty of advice on how to catch her.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Have you retrieved her deleted texts from her cell phone and checked the old bills for numbers called a lot? 

Do you have any suspicions about any men in particular?

Why were you suspicious?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

You can never be sure of a negative. Same way you can never be sure that you don't have cancer. If you can live with one uncertainly, why not the other?


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

I went thru something like this awhile back. I finally said to myself screw it, if she did cheat, she is the one who has to live with it not me. And if she does cheat it will come out as we live in a small town. If I ever find out she did cheat I'm gone.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

Yea this pretty much sums up my options, not much good I can do now.

I guess this will just linger in the back of my mind until the next round of strange behavior. I actually found this forum because of the VAR thread but I never took things that far. But next time I suspect anything I'm going to start digging. Uncertainty is a ****ty feeling and I hope I've never made her feel this way.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

A polygraph might help refresh her memory. Obviously, not an option if cost would get in the way.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> A polygraph might help refresh her memory. Obviously, not an option if cost would get in the way.


Too aggressive of an approach for me


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

_mojo_ said:


> Too aggressive of an approach for me


Then you could live the rest of your life in limbo.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Thound said:


> I went thru something like this awhile back. I finally said to myself screw it, if she did cheat, she is the one who has to live with it not me. And if she does cheat it will come out as we live in a small town. If I ever find out she did cheat I'm gone.


Me too. On all counts.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

Chaparral said:


> Have you retrieved her deleted texts from her cell phone and checked the old bills for numbers called a lot?
> 
> Do you have any suspicions about any men in particular?
> 
> Why were you suspicious?



Yes I checked phone bills but found nothing. She knows I have access to that stuff and probably would avoid it. Also I learned that iMessage does not show on the phone bill. 

I was suspicious because on multiple occasions I awoke to her, in a panic, closing and putting down her phone. It was almost comedic it was so clumsy. I would also walk into the room and she's closing browser windows, one time I could tell it was a photo of a guy and it looked like her ex but it was so fast I couldn't be sure. Basically this kind of crap went on long enough that I just assumed she's cheating and started to observe rather than confront her every time. The behavior coupled with our diminishing sex life lead me to the cheating assumption I guess. 

This went on for like 6 months maybe, then it stopped completely which has only made me more curious.

---

As I'm writing this I realize my post title should have been "My wife cheated and got away with it!"


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Yes, these are 3 red flags for an EA or PA. The 'confronting every time' has created the possibility it went underground. You now do not know if it was an EA/PA and if it stopped, or not.

Probability it was something is rather high, that it then stopped after 6 months is also rather high.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Best case is she didn't cheat.

Worst case is she cheated and -- having gotten away w/ it -- is still cheating.

Mitigated worst case is she cheated but stopped (of her own accord), hopefully realizing the error of her ways and resolving to never do it again.

Ideally, if she did cheat (or is cheating), you'd be able to ask her about it and she'd tell the truth.

_But cheaters lie_, man. It's something of a universal truth. Hell, it's in the job description.

And guess what? Even "reformed" cheaters lie. Because they've learned their lessons, right? Why needlessly hurt you?

Now the bad news -- assuming that she was cheating, any evidence (if there ever was any) is likely long gone. It's possible that there's something in her old FB messages, emails, texts (might have to recover from device backup), etc, but that's gonna be a huge pain, especially if you don't currently have access to any of that. 

Personally I'd recommend establishing some solid monitoring, waiting a week or so, and then asking her about your thoughts. That might shake something loose, especially if you suspect that she was involved w/ someone in particular.

For example, if you say something like, "I feel like you were spending too much time with Jim around that time, plus he was acting pretty strangely around me back then...", a VAR discretely placed in her car might catch a particularly juicy phone call to him the next day.

Yes, I know this sounds creepy.

But it's like I said, man -- cheaters lie.

With respect to her phone records, social media accounts, email, cell phone, tablet, computer, etc, and passwords for each... to which of these do you currently have access?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sports Fan (Aug 21, 2014)

Unfortunately all the evidence would point to her cheating. Only option is as Gus pointed out. Install a VAR in her car drop her a juicy line how you plan to confront Mr X on your suspicions then wait for the phone call.

If you dont find anything this time you will have to let it go until next time. 

At least if there is a next time and i sincerley hope not you will be better prepared.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Like most any new relationship, there's going to be a slow to rather fast buildup, an acceleration toward the sexual, and then quite possibly, the denouement, more especially if things begin to taper off in their newfound covert freedom! 

Regardless, the creation of this fast-budding relationship is going to, more often than not, be documented in such social media devices as PC's cell phones, and pads ~ which most likely will be protected by either impenetrable passwords, or perhaps none at all, to afford them rather easy access for the participant to quickly revel in their newfound "love" as well as their "freedom of irreverence," which they are hedging their bets that their legitimate and trusting partner doesn't really have the first damned clue about!

If the marital relationship has headed "South" because of a disappearance of the marital sex act, that all too often is the only clue that a potential BS may ever be afforded to affirm that "something is indeed rotten in Denmark!"

Given that, only common sense and the due investigation of probable cause is going to be the only available, justifiable tool to ferret out any possibility of impropriety! *
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

None of the regulars here have any doubt what was going on. That's because your wife was following the infamous cheater's script to a tee.

Is her ex married? I would go so far as to talk to his wife and see if she suspected anything.

Do you have access to her phone, computer tablet, old phones, phone bills?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Btw,some phones keep track of where they have been,


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

_mojo_ said:


> I was suspicious because on* multiple occasions I awoke to her, in a panic, closing and putting down her phone. It was almost comedic it was so clumsy. I would also walk into the room and she's closing browser windows, one time I could tell it was a photo of a guy and it looked like her ex* but it was so fast I couldn't be sure. Basically this kind of crap went on long enough that I just assumed she's cheating and started to observe rather than confront her every time. The behavior coupled with our diminishing sex life lead me to the cheating assumption I guess.
> 
> This went on for like 6 months maybe, then it stopped completely which has only made me more curious.


mojo,

15 years ago I was exactly where you are. My WW was having an affair with her Boss. I had the signs and the gut feeling but no proof... none. I made the biggest mistake of my adult life... the soft confront. She continued cheating on and off for another 7 years with multiple APs until I finally caught her. 

The point... we all know that PA are killers to the BS. However, to your WW while "real" and exciting, they are also pure fantasy. Affairs don't come with life's issue of children, bills, parents, sickness... etc.
Therefore, the need for constant everyday communication is not needed either. Remember, affairs are more about a selfish escape from real life, why drag up life's reality when you can live for a few hours in the bliss of make believe. 

Just because your wife is acting more normal now doesn't mean it's completely over. When I finally caught my WW (damning proof) I knew of her previous affairs from years back (she admitted to them in emails with current OM... honor amongst cheaters?). Now the strange part for me. Reading through these emails it was apparent she would sometimes go 6 months or more without a single email exchange with the AP. Then one small "Hey, I was thinking of you." and it would start up again ending in some secret motel for an afternoon of sex.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

I really appreciate everyone's help here.

I only have access our phone records, never found anything. She no longer has the same phone, the phone that would have contained any details was traded-in when she upgraded last year, opportunity lost. I did snoop occasionally on the old phone but never found anything. I'm positive she would delete anything incriminating and probably would stick to email or FB. I do know, the one or 2 times I was able to peak at her facebook, all the history stuff was always deleted. Yea not a good sign.

At the time of the suspicious behavior she was spending too much time on Facebook. Way more so than now. Maybe that was the vehicle of communication but I'm not sure. Either she has stopped or the affair has gone underground. I'm still keeping an eye out but I never notice anything suspicious anymore. I'm not on Facebook, never have, never will.

So i guess I should disclose a little more info, probably should have mentioned this but I'm a bit of a private person. Since the possible affair we've had a child (unplanned). Life is completely different now, before she had all the time in the world to do something like this but now we have very little free time. Pretty much everything has changed in our lives.

I did have a paternity test and I'm sure our child is mine. It's the only assurance I have these days.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

The question I keep asking myself and I'm very interested to see how others are coping; How can I have a healthy relationship with her when I will always carry this suspicion?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

_mojo_ said:


> The question I keep asking myself and I'm very interested to see how others are coping; How can I have a healthy relationship with her when I will always carry this suspicion?


There's no way for this to happen unless you just bury it, which obviously isn't healthy.

And let's say it comes roaring back 5, 10, or 20 (or more) years from now... what will you do then?

Don't avoid this.

You want to put this behind you?

Get out in front of it (to the degree that you can, anyway) NOW.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

You either need some hard evidence, or you have to be willing to risk destroying your relationship over suspicion. You may well be right - but, what if you are wrong and it turns out to be unjustified paranoia? Without evidence, you'll have to dig, and she will know that you are. If she is innocent, she may well be disgusted and leave. If not, well, then you'll know. Either way, your relationship could end. Maybe it would be best to just divorce now - because that's almost certainly where this will lead whether or not she cheated.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

RWB said:


> ... I made the biggest mistake of my adult life... the soft confront.


So you're saying you would have done a hard confrontation based only on suspicion and no evidence?

The thing is, I really doubt she'd admit anything unless I have evidence. The only way confrontation could work for me is if I bluff about having proof and I don't even have enough info to do that effectively. All i know is she was behaving weird, that's all I got.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

There have been folks here that found things in facebook's archive. Many don't know about the archive and it may have been changed recently.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I'm sure he isn't suggesting any kind of confrontation at this point.

Have you gone through everything in the house and car with a fine tooth comb.

How did your sex life change during this period?


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

I would think about putting spyware on her cell and a key logger on her computer. Then monitor her for as long as you need. 

It's not that difficult if you can get 30 minutes alone time with each device and you have the passwords. Which you should.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

@drifting on


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> There's no way for this to happen unless you just bury it, which obviously isn't healthy.
> 
> And let's say it comes roaring back 5, 10, or 20 (or more) years from now... what will you do then?
> 
> ...


I'm not able to bury it. Basically I've just assumed she cheated so I can stop thinking about it all the time. I wouldn't say it comes roaring back, it's more like I carry it with me always, like scare tissue. I know it's there, I just live with it.

So I'm not sure how to "Get out in front of it", I don't know what to do. I'm not willing to hard confront without real evidence. If I wasn't able to get evidence when the issue was more active I'm really not sure how to get any now. 

I feel like my only option is to sit on the issue until I need to address it again. Then maybe I'll hire a PI because I'm not a devious person, I don't cheat and hate lying. So thinking like a cheater to catch a cheater is not going to work for me.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

@drifting on was in your exact scenario and he found everything. It was much worse than he could ever imagine. He still managed to reconcile. He will have some very good suggestions, no doubt.

Until then, mouth closed, eyes and ears open.

Sorry you are here, brother.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

badmemory said:


> I would think about putting spyware on her cell and a key logger on her computer. Then monitor her for as long as you need.
> 
> It's not that difficult if you can get 30 minutes alone time with each device and you have the passwords. Which you should.


The computer key logger is a possibility, I'm going to consider it.

As to the phone, I did research this back then and spying on an iPhone is very difficult. Last time I checked it was not a simple process by any means, not like a computer key logger.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> @drifting on was in your exact scenario and he found everything. It was much worse than he could ever imagine. He still managed to reconcile. He will have some very good suggestions, no doubt.
> 
> Until then, mouth closed, eyes and ears open.
> 
> Sorry you are here, brother.


Thank you for the support brother.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

There's a pretty universal thought that you can't take any action until you have solid evidence. I also believed that with my XWW and didn't do anything until I had proof. Maybe I'm just a little jaded now but these days I wouldn't need proof. If I don't trust someone I'd just get rid of them and save myself the hassle. If you truly don't trust your wife you need to decide if you are OK living like this or not. If you are OK with it, then hopefully the feelings will slowly go away. If you aren't OK with it you can always decide to take action. That could include marriage counseling and it could be something that you insist on and won't accept her not participating in. Good luck to you.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

Chaparral said:


> I'm sure he isn't suggesting any kind of confrontation at this point.
> 
> Have you gone through everything in the house and car with a fine tooth comb.
> 
> How did your sex life change during this period?


At the time I did go through whatever I had access to. She's more computer savvy then myself so I was never able to find anything.

Sex life change in that frequency and passion where both lacking.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

Bananapeel said:


> There's a pretty universal thought that you can't take any action until you have solid evidence. I also believed that with my XWW and didn't do anything until I had proof. Maybe I'm just a little jaded now but these days I wouldn't need proof. If I don't trust someone I'd just get rid of them and save myself the hassle. If you truly don't trust your wife you need to decide if you are OK living like this or not. If you are OK with it, then hopefully the feelings will slowly go away. If you aren't OK with it you can always decide to take action. That could include marriage counseling and it could be something that you insist on and won't accept her not participating in. Good luck to you.


Given that my child is my priority, I'm not willing to blow things up without proof. Even if remote, it's possible this is my issue and I'm not willing to cause damage over suspicion without evidence.

Ultimately I just want to know if I'm crazy/insecure and need to work on myself or if she's a cheater. I'll survive either way but not knowing is a thorn in my side. 

In all other aspects I trust her and if it wasn't for the suspicious behavior I'd have no distrust at all.


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## kenmoore14217 (Apr 8, 2010)

when faced w/ a very situation I made a basic pro/con list for staying in our relationship. Pros far outweighed the cons hence still married 47 years!


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

_mojo_ said:


> I'm not able to bury it. Basically I've just assumed she cheated so I can stop thinking about it all the time. I wouldn't say it comes roaring back, it's more like I carry it with me always, like scare tissue. I know it's there, I just live with it.
> 
> So I'm not sure how to "Get out in front of it", I don't know what to do. I'm not willing to hard confront without real evidence. If I wasn't able to get evidence when the issue was more active I'm really not sure how to get any now.
> 
> I feel like my only option is to sit on the issue until I need to address it again. Then maybe I'll hire a PI because I'm not a devious person, I don't cheat and hate lying. So thinking like a cheater to catch a cheater is not going to work for me.


Well then pucker up and be prepared to live w/ this hanging over your head for the rest of your life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

_mojo_ said:


> The computer key logger is a possibility, I'm going to consider it.
> 
> As to the phone, I did research this back then and spying on an iPhone is very difficult. Last time I checked it was not a simple process by any means, not like a computer key logger.


Answer these questions...

1) Do you know the email address and password associated w/ her Apple iTunes/iCloud account?

2) Do you know the password to the email address associated w/ her Apple iTunes/iCloud account? Note that this is a different question than the question asked above.

3) Does she use an iPad or Mac computer?

4) What kind of phone do _you_ use? If it's an iPhone, is it associated w/ the same Apple iTunes/iCloud account that's in use on her iPhone?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

@_mojo_, when Gus asks questions about tech stuff, it is because he sees a potential way to help you.  I would run down these questions sooner rather than later.



GusPolinski said:


> Answer these questions...
> 
> 1) Do you know the email address and password associated w/ her Apple iTunes/iCloud account?
> 
> ...


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Mojo, have you had the talk with your wife about what are deal breakers in a marriage, and if not perhaps this is the time to discuss it and when you do, this is where an understanding in body language may help. In other words, have a sit down talk face to face with her and bring that at work they talked about deal breakers in marriage and as her what are her's and then bring up yours, namely cheating on a spouse, especially if she hadn't brought it up as part of her deal breaker, then tell her that some one who cheats is the lowest form of scum bag in the world, and then look her in the eye and ask "don't you think" perhaps even discuss EA vs. PA before asking that question...something like even a emotional affair is cheating and agains ask her "what do you think?" what her body language, but remember, its important to speak calmly with no anger. a simple conversation. I am not suggesting that you will get answer but you will instill guilt and shame if its in there, and perhaps other behavior.....for example hours later she might want to bring up the subject again perhaps in the believe you have something maybe....just a thought.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> Answer these questions...
> 
> 1) Do you know the email address and password associated w/ her Apple iTunes/iCloud account?
> 
> ...


1. I could probably figure out the email address (she has like 3) but I do not know the apple password.

2. No we do not have access to each others email.

3. Yes she uses both a windows laptop (work) and a mac (personal). 

4. iPhone, no it's a separate itunes account. I do not have access to her iCloud.

I really appreciate your help.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

You have to analyze what you can and can't control and what lines you are willing to cross. The simplest is, when she fumbles or closes the browser, ask to see it. If she asks you why, don't you trust her, respond, clearly no, which is why I am asking you. If she has nothing to hide, then she hides nothing. If that is too confrontational for you, then look to add a VAR like other have said, or put up other types of surveillance. Does she always use her computer in the same place? Put a camera pointing at it. Take it a step further and hire a private detective. You can't live your life wondering, so, either do something or leave.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> Well then pucker up and be prepared to live w/ this hanging over your head for the rest of your life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's a hard truth but I appreciate the candor.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

Xenote said:


> Mojo, have you had the talk with your wife about what are deal breakers in a marriage, and if not perhaps this is the time to discuss it and when you do, this is where an understanding in body language may help. In other words, have a sit down talk face to face with her and bring that at work they talked about deal breakers in marriage and as her what are her's and then bring up yours, namely cheating on a spouse, especially if she hadn't brought it up as part of her deal breaker, then tell her that some one who cheats is the lowest form of scum bag in the world, and then look her in the eye and ask "don't you think" perhaps even discuss EA vs. PA before asking that question...something like even a emotional affair is cheating and agains ask her "what do you think?" what her body language, but remember, its important to speak calmly with no anger. a simple conversation. I am not suggesting that you will get answer but you will instill guilt and shame if its in there, and perhaps other behavior.....for example hours later she might want to bring up the subject again perhaps in the believe you have something maybe....just a thought.


This is an interesting approach. I'll consider this.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Not getting down to the bottom of this is just not going to be worth it. I really feel that she is doing something that could be compromising the marriage, if not cheating. I would still monitor the hell out of her by VAR or other means if you can't get her phone records, but I would do my damnest to get them. I would ever go as far as hiring a PI to follow/monitor her. She is acting way too suspicious for you just to rug sweep this.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

Herschel said:


> You have to analyze what you can and can't control and what lines you are willing to cross. The simplest is, when she fumbles or closes the browser, ask to see it. If she asks you why, don't you trust her, respond, clearly no, which is why I am asking you. If she has nothing to hide, then she hides nothing. If that is too confrontational for you, then look to add a VAR like other have said, or put up other types of surveillance. Does she always use her computer in the same place? Put a camera pointing at it. Take it a step further and hire a private detective. You can't live your life wondering, so, either do something or leave.


In the past I did confront her but I never got any evidence. Asking to see the phone/computer was pointless because the window/app would have already been closed out. I never did the VAR mostly because the phone records didn't show anything. Unless she had another phone (i searched) or was using an app, I don't think a VAR will work. My gut says if anything the communications went through instant messaging or email.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

@_mojo_, let's say that you do wind up uncovering incontrovertible evidence of an affair... what, at that point, are your next steps?

On the other hand, let's say that she confesses to an affair -- does that change your answer at all? If so, how?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

_mojo_ said:


> So you're saying *you would have done a hard confrontation based only on suspicion and no evidence?
> *
> The thing is, I really doubt she'd admit anything unless I have evidence. The only way confrontation could work for me is if I bluff about having proof and I don't even have enough info to do that effectively. All i know is she was behaving weird, that's all I got.


No, Never confront a cheater without damning proof. Better yet, don't confront at all at first. Lay low, gather as much evidence as you can. And then when you do confront... only bring up just enough to gather an admission. Then sit back and watch the TT, the omissions, the lies, this will give you a good indication just how shameful/remorseful they really feel. 

Keep your trap shut. If she did cheat before (you believe), she will be tempted again, cheating is an addictive behavior. You may have to wait this out, could take years. Sorry mojo but this is your cross to bear. The truth is... everyone of us in R live this way to some degree. It why a lot here at TAM advocate D.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Does she have a best friend? If so, invite her over for drinks & dinner. Get her drunk and when your wife is out of the room say something about how difficult it has been the past couple of years but you are beginning to feel better about the 'situation'. Wring your hands a couple of times and act relieved. BFF might shed some light on what's been happening.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I dunno, I still think that once you have the proof, confronting is kind of a moot point. 

Do what I did. Once you have the proof, wait till they're in the shower - so, naked and vulnerable - and rip the door open on them and yell at them "GET THE FVCK OUT OF THIS HOUSE RIGHT NOW YOU FVCKING CHEATING BA$TARD!!!!"

OK so I didn't YELL, but I DID rip the shower door open and tell him to GTFO right now.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> @_mojo_, let's say that you do wind up uncovering incontrovertible evidence of an affair... what, at that point, are your next steps?
> 
> On the other hand, let's say that she confesses to an affair -- does that change your answer at all? If so, how?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I feel a confession would at least show some remorse so I'd prefer that over finding evidence but ultimately I just want to know the truth. 

Either way, if an affair is uncovered, next steps would be to end the current relationship as it is and then, if possible begin again. If we can repair our marriage in a way that is truly better for my child than a divorce, that is the road I would take. I'm not fragile by any means, this will not break me one bit. I can handle any outcome but I just want to know if "I" have the issue or "WE" have the issue. Hopefully this makes sense.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> I dunno, I still think that once you have the proof, confronting is kind of a moot point.
> 
> Do what I did. Once you have the proof, wait till they're in the shower - so, naked and vulnerable - and rip the door open on them and yell at them "GET THE FVCK OUT OF THIS HOUSE RIGHT NOW YOU FVCKING CHEATING BA$TARD!!!!"
> 
> OK so I didn't YELL, but I DID rip the shower door open and tell him to GTFO right now.


I hear you but I'm not angry anymore. I just want a healthy relationship for my child's sake. If I can reconcile I will, she is a wonderful mother. I choose to be with my wife, I don't need her. There is a freedom in that realization. But I know the anger you expressed. 

What I don't want is to play the fool while she goes behind my back. Then I would be angry with myself which is not acceptable.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

_mojo_ said:


> I feel a confession would at least show some remorse so I'd prefer that over finding evidence but ultimately I just want to know the truth.
> 
> Either way, if an affair is uncovered, next steps would be to end the current relationship as it is and then, if possible begin again. If we can repair our marriage in a way that is truly better for my child than a divorce, that is the road I would take. I'm not fragile by any means, this will not break me one bit. I can handle any outcome but I just want to know if "I" have the issue or "WE" have the issue. Hopefully this makes sense.


Makes perfect sense.

Given the answers that you provided to the questions I asked earlier, a confession may very well be your only shot of getting to the truth.

But here's the thing -- she's not very likely to confess to anything w/o any sort of prompting, which means that you're going to have to draw it out of her.

And to do that, you're probably going to have to assure her that even the worst answer isn't something that will lead to the end of your marriage and family.

In other words, you have to create a "safe space" (geez I hate that term) in which she feels that the truth can be shared w/o fear of reprisal.

It's worth nothing that this approach is not w/o it's risks, though.

Still, if you're unwilling or unable to do some discrete sleuthing (which does, unfortunately, require a bit of duplicity), it's probably your best bet at getting anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Also, @_mojo_, I'd advise you to read this...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/privat...s-each-others-emails-phones.html#post15286809
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

I haven't read all of the posts on this thread but your story sounds similar to @SofaKingWeToddId

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/67182-should-i-ask-poly.html

It's a very long thread but he's recently provided some updates towards the end of that thread on how he handling his doubts.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> Makes perfect sense.
> 
> Given the answers that you provided to the questions I asked earlier, a confession may very well be your only shot of getting to the truth.
> 
> ...


Even with a "safe space" I doubt she'd confess. I have no evidence and she has nothing to gain by admitting anything. The only chance would be out of guilt but it's possible she doesn't feel guilty.

I'm not unwilling to do some sleuthing, just not sure what else I can do.

Snooping on the iPhone would require technical skills I do not have. I tried looking at purchasing a solution but everything seems to require the phone to be "jail broken" which is too involved. I can most likely get her iCloud password but not sure what I'd do with it.

I have her personal laptop password (she doesn't know I know it). But when I snooped in the past it produced nothing. My gut tells me everything happened via the phone and probably went through an app or email, possibly one I don't know about. I do know she uses incognito tabs so browser history is out. I also know she clears her facebook history so I can only assume messages are deleted as well. Never found anything there either.

She very tech savvy so I think I'd have to capture the action as it happened on the phone. But this is way outside my capabilities.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> Also, @_mojo_, I'd advise you to read this...
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/privat...s-each-others-emails-phones.html#post15286809
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It says I do not have access to this page. 

Thanks for this I will read it when I can get access.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

_mojo_ said:


> It says I do not have access to this page.
> 
> Thanks for this I will read it when I can get access.


Ah. It's in the Private Members Section forum. You'll have to either get to 30 posts or donate to become a Forum Supporter in order to get access.

Didn't think about that.

Tell you what, here you go...



kindMe77 said:


> Should a married couple have full access to each others text messages, emails and social media as an assurance of faithfulness?





GusPolinski said:


> No.
> 
> But let me explain.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

Lila said:


> I haven't read all of the posts on this thread but your story sounds similar to @sofakingwetoddit.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/67182-should-i-ask-poly.html
> 
> It's a very long thread but he's recently provided some updates towards the end of that thread on how he handling his doubts.


I'd love to read this but I don't have access. Do i need to do anything to access this thread? (other than log in)


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> Ah. It's in the Private Members Section forum. You'll have to either get to 30 posts or donate to become a Forum Supporter in order to get access.
> 
> Didn't think about that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh ok, understood


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

_mojo_ said:


> Oh ok, understood


I just edited that last post, so scroll back up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> I just edited that last post, so scroll back up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I see it, thank you Gus!


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

_mojo_ said:


> I'd love to read this but I don't have access. Do i need to do anything to access this thread? (other than log in)


Shoot. I didn't realize it was in the private section. I think you have to have 40 posts (?) to have access to the private section. You're almost there.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

_mojo_ said:


> I hear you but I'm not angry anymore. I just want a healthy relationship for my child's sake. If I can reconcile I will, she is a wonderful mother. I choose to be with my wife, I don't need her. There is a freedom in that realization. But I know the anger you expressed.
> 
> What I don't want is to play the fool while she goes behind my back. Then I would be angry with myself which is not acceptable.


FYI, my husband - yes, the same one I did that to - and I are very happily together today


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Lila said:


> Shoot. I didn't realize it was in the private section. I think you have to have 40 posts (?) to have access to the private section. You're almost there.




Need 30. 7 more to go.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

_mojo_ said:


> Given that my child is my priority, I'm not willing to blow things up without proof. Even if remote, it's possible this is my issue and I'm not willing to cause damage over suspicion without evidence.
> 
> Ultimately I just want to know if I'm crazy/insecure and need to work on myself or if she's a cheater. I'll survive either way but not knowing is a thorn in my side.
> 
> In all other aspects I trust her and if it wasn't for the suspicious behavior I'd have no distrust at all.


Trust your gut.

One of my counselors explained to me a very simple concept, which is that you have the right to your reality, and you have the right to speak your reality. To you, your reality is that _the circumstances of your wife's behavior changes_ have no simple explanation other than the very common one of some kind of affair. What really happened, if anything? There is no easy way to know. But your gut has given you strong signals that _something was very wrong_.

You can express this to your wife, not in an accusatory way but in an explanatory way. I think it would be best to do so in marriage counseling. It is a neutral territory which has a referee. You can bring this up not as a "who were you banging?" question but as a "How do we resolve this poison in our marriage".

You are indeed in limbo with no way out other than to come to a conclusion one way or another. That same counselor also made the good point that we do not need CSI crime lab level proof in order to know something. We can know it in our gut. You know your wife in a way nobody else does. You can read her. You can come to a conclusion that she is being honest or not, even if you don't have hard physical evidence.

Within MC you can explore this dilemma. Now imagine this, your wife comes to you and says she is having a serious emotional block within your marriage, and she needs your help in resolving it. Even though what she thinks about you is not nice, would you be wanting to help resolve the problem? Or would you be doing everything possible to avoid MC and denying whatever it is she is thinking about you? If you ask your wife to go to MC with you in order to work through this issue, she either does or does not participate in good faith. If she does not, you have your answer regardless of whether she cheated. She currently is not interested enough in you to work on helping you heal and feel secure in the marriage. If she does participate in MC, you have the possibility of working through the issue and coming to a healthy strong marriage.

This is the direct and honest path, though a bit of a scary path. She may yell at you. She may deny anything happened, calling you insecure. She may withdraw from you. She may react as if you insulted her. You cannot predict her response, but *you are not responsible for her response*. You are responsible to be honest with her and to work towards the good of the marriage. Resolving your nagging concerns is for the good of the marriage even if it results in the end of the marriage.

Yes, I was in limbo for many years suspecting my wife of cheating. She denied anything untoward ever happened. Those doubts are poison to the marriage, and they don't go away. Something unexplained will happen in the future and you'll get triggered, wondering if she's lying or cheating.

There's nothing wrong with doing whatever investigations you can now before saying anything to her. Search all the financial statements, credit card bills, and phone records of that time period. Search the house thoroughly. You may find souvenirs from trysts (hotel key cards, restaurant receipts, poems, love letters, etc). Check all the hidden compartments in her car for anything unusual. Check her closet and her dresser very very carefully. Check pockets of clothing, check inside shoes, etc. Chances are you will not find anything, but it can't hurt to look. Be sure to leave everything exactly as you found it.

BTW, iPhones can be backed up on iTunes or on the cloud. Many people do this to save contact info, photos, music, texts, etc in case their phone gets lost or damaged. If you have a backup to the computer as well, you can go back in time to when she was acting weird and see if there is anything in her phone backups.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Does she browse the internet at home via wifi? There are wifi devices which record everything going across the connection. Although now it is years after the suspected affair so you are very unlikely to discover anything now.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

_mojo_ said:


> I do know she uses incognito tabs so browser history is out. I also know she clears her facebook history so I can only assume messages are deleted as well.


Closing apps when you walk in the room, using incognito browsing, and cleansing her facebook are all serious red flags. If she is doing this currently it would indicate something is currently going on. If she only did it during the suspect time period, it would be a strong clue she was doing something she wanted to hide from you.

It takes effort to do all that hiding. That shows she knows she is doing something you would not like, and that is a problem. If you had some kind of nagging gut feeling but she was being totally transparent in her electronics then we might lean towards you being overly paranoid. In your situation there is plenty of smoke, so the question is what is the nature of the fire rather than is there a fire at all.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

Thor said:


> Closing apps when you walk in the room, using incognito browsing, and cleansing her facebook are all serious red flags. If she is doing this currently it would indicate something is currently going on. If she only did it during the suspect time period, it would be a strong clue she was doing something she wanted to hide from you.
> 
> It takes effort to do all that hiding. That shows she knows she is doing something you would not like, and that is a problem. If you had some kind of nagging gut feeling but she was being totally transparent in her electronics then we might lean towards you being overly paranoid. In your situation there is plenty of smoke, so the question is what is the nature of the fire rather than is there a fire at all.


"what is the nature of the fire rather than is there a fire at all" This Exactly! I know something was wrong, I just don't know what. I haven't snooped on anything in a long time but I think I'll check and see if she is still covering her tracks. That would be a good indicator of current things.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

Thor said:


> Trust your gut.
> 
> One of my counselors explained to me a very simple concept, which is that you have the right to your reality, and you have the right to speak your reality. To you, your reality is that _the circumstances of your wife's behavior changes_ have no simple explanation other than the very common one of some kind of affair. What really happened, if anything? There is no easy way to know. But your gut has given you strong signals that _something was very wrong_.
> 
> ...


I'm not a big fan of marriage counselors but you make a good point. I'm going to consider this but I need to be strategic.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

Update:

I'm pretty sure she checking my phone tonight when I was showering. I'm also pretty sure she checked it the other day as well. Not sure what she's looking for. It's strange because she's been acting slightly jealous lately (in a teasing way) which is not particularly normal for her. I think this jealousy is what prompted me to bring this all up again. 

I do nothing that would make her jealous. I'm either at work or I'm at home fixing the house or taking care of my kid.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

There is a condition called Projection. Where a person projects their own behavior onto another person. As in a person who is cheating sometimes assumes their spouse is capable of the same behavior and they become jealous or accusatory of their spouse.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Xenote said:


> Mojo, have you had the talk with your wife about what are deal breakers in a marriage, and if not perhaps this is the time to discuss it and when you do, this is where an understanding in body language may help. In other words, have a sit down talk face to face with her and bring that at work they talked about deal breakers in marriage and as her what are her's and then bring up yours, namely cheating on a spouse, especially if she hadn't brought it up as part of her deal breaker, then tell her that some one who cheats is the lowest form of scum bag in the world, and then look her in the eye and ask "don't you think" perhaps even discuss EA vs. PA before asking that question...something like even a emotional affair is cheating and agains ask her "what do you think?" what her body language, but remember, its important to speak calmly with no anger. a simple conversation. I am not suggesting that you will get answer but you will instill guilt and shame if its in there, and perhaps other behavior.....for example hours later she might want to bring up the subject again perhaps in the believe you have something maybe....just a thought.


The perfect time to do this is when you are sitting together watching a movie where a wife is cheating on her husband. Then say "That would be a deal breaker for me. How about for you, If I cheated"?

????????????

However, if she is currently cheating this would cause her to pause, be retrospective, and to be more careful.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

_mojo_ said:


> Update:
> 
> I'm pretty sure she checking my phone tonight when I was showering. I'm also pretty sure she checked it the other day as well. Not sure what she's looking for. It's strange because she's been acting slightly jealous lately (in a teasing way) which is not particularly normal for her. I think this jealousy is what prompted me to bring this all up again.
> 
> *I do nothing that would make her jealous.* I'm either at work or I'm at home fixing the house or taking care of my kid.


*Oh yes you do*.............you have a gut feeling that she cheated two years ago. Her "inner ear" hears your gut. 

Some spouses can sense the slightest change in their SO's aura. Especially, if the catalyst is her own guilt. Women are especially tuned to reading body movements and facial expression. They can read minds.

When young, my mother could read mine........like a book.

I would go as far as saying her innate ESP is picking up on your suspicion, your cheating fears. And Projection [as mentioned] is the layman's shortsighted rationale for this phenomenon. Pun intended.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

OH, again.

You may be reading HER mind.

She may be having flashbacks, bouts of guilt, or........something......and you are picking it up sub-consciously.

When people talk about another person being their soul mate [not sole mate!], be a believer. Some couples are FATED to be together, for good or nil.

These bonding's are electric [for lack of a better term] and the two married entities are linked by forces greater than themselves.

It is these unions that display cross-pairing [a sense/knowledge of] of unspoken feelings and thoughts. 

Yes, couples living together for years get to know each others quirks and responses outside of any hocus-pocus.

Sorry, @Evinrude58


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

If you are good at it, you could try bluffing that you have information.

maybe that someone sent you a message.

it's a little tricky though


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Mojo

I have a few questions,
You said a paternity test was done, child is yours, correct?

Did she work with this ex? 

Was she gone more often, suddenly working late? 

What exactly caused your gut to think she's cheating? 

If you really want the truth, are you willing to do the work?

It's been two years, how do you think she is still meeting with OM? Or does she go out alone much?

Like myself, your gut is screaming at you, my gut knew but proof wasn't around. Here is my warning to you, you can't bury this, you can't go on without the truth. I reached this point too, and it's a dangerous time for you, this will drag you down much faster then you can imagine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

drifting on said:


> Mojo
> 
> I have a few questions,
> You said a paternity test was done, child is yours, correct?
> ...



Yes child is mine, test was conclusive.

She did/does not work with the Ex. Guess it could be a co-worker though.

She had the entire day to do anything she pleased while I was at work. Her work is very flexible. No staying out late really, maybe once or twice for work happy hours.

I guess it was her secretive behavior and the way she was treating me that made me suspicious. I woke up to her quickly putting down her phone so many times that I really didn't know what to think. What could someone be looking at in the early AM that they need to behave like that? And she didn't always do it, sometimes she was just legitimately checking email I guess and didn't need to panic.

Yes I want the truth. I'm will to accept the outcome as long as I act in a way that does not cause damage that did not already exist.

She does not go out alone much since we've had our child, about a year. I don't know if she's still communicating with OM. I was never able to determine any means of communication. Like i mentioned it would most likely be through email or chat. I never found anything incriminating on the phone logs. I think whatever it was has cooled down. Maybe she called it off after she got pregnant. Everything changed after that really.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

convert said:


> If you are good at it, you could try bluffing that you have information.
> 
> maybe that someone sent you a message.
> 
> it's a little tricky though


I've wanted to do this but it's too much a shot in the dark right now.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

TDSC60 said:


> There is a condition called Projection. Where a person projects their own behavior onto another person. As in a person who is cheating sometimes assumes their spouse is capable of the same behavior and they become jealous or accusatory of their spouse.


Thanks for this!


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> The perfect time to do this is when you are sitting together watching a movie where a wife is cheating on her husband. Then say "That would be a deal breaker for me. How about for you, If I cheated"?
> 
> ????????????
> 
> However, if she is currently cheating this would cause her to pause, be retrospective, and to be more careful.


I will look for the opportunity to try this.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> FYI, my husband - yes, the same one I did that to - and I are very happily together today


I'm glad to hear things worked out, gives me hope. :smile2:


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

One thing I want to point out to you is, by the time a BS starts noticing odd behaviors in their waywards, it's probably been going on for some time before your first suspicion. 
In my case, I started noticing detachment(from my fww) around june/july of 1999, turns out "it" had started earlier in the year around February. Took me 6 months of daily var recording (landline, we didn't have cell phones at that time) before I busted her. Yup, all communication to OM was being done from her work phone. She fkd up, when she had to take mandatory vacation and had to use the home landline to contact her EA.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

There is every reason to investigate. People get really good at hiding affairs. God knows how many 7-10 year affairs there are here that BSs never had a clue about.

You might have just gotten lucky you are your childs father. that alone may have scared her out of an affair...for awhile.

IMHO her checking on you is yet another common red flag that the affair may be ongoing or starting back up.

Google signs wife is having an affair. See how many checks you make.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

_mojo_ said:


> In the past I did confront her but I never got any evidence. Asking to see the phone/computer was pointless because the window/app would have already been closed out. I never did the VAR mostly because the phone records didn't show anything. Unless she had another phone (i searched) or was using an app, *I don't think a VAR will work. *My gut says if anything the communications went through instant messaging or email.


mojo,

You VAR not just for convo between her and OM. Her conversations with GFs will tell more than you can imagine. My wife had one friend that knew about her cheating... they talked.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

_mojo_ said:


> I'm will to accept the outcome as long as I act in a way that does not cause damage that did not already exist.


Do you realize that your situation is a direct result of her behavior? Regardless if she was doing something horrible or nothing wrong at all, her actions were those of someone hiding something from their spouse.

The damage exists already. As several have said, and I will attest to from my personal experience, this damage cannot be waved away by you. Something will happen again which will bring it right back up to front and center from you. Your marriage is being killed by a thousand slow cuts. If you bring it up with her to resolve it you are bringing it out into the open and ripping off the band-aids. Now that does involve the risk of her having a negative reaction. However, this slow torture is also affecting your marriage. You are acting differently, she has picked up on it, and now she's checking your cell phone. There's lots of dysfunction going on but it isn't being addressed directly.

Your choices are:
1) Accept that she did the worst. Not just assume it happened, but accept that it happened _and be ok with that_. There may be people out there who can do this, but they are very rare.
2) Accept that she did the worst and decide to live with the hurt silently. This would be the same as rug-sweeping, and it never leads to a good marriage.
3) Bring it out into the open. Work with her to resolve it.

The fact is she did things which anybody would find very suspicious. She holds responsibility for the state of the marriage as a result. You can't ever have the same marriage you had before she did this. You'll see many references on this forum to true remorse vs false remorse, and true reconciliation vs false reconciliation. In the same vein, your wife may show true concern for your distress, or not. If she does, you can work with her to find a resolution. If she doesn't, you learn something about her.

I recommend you do this with a good therapist who is experienced with infidelity. One who doesn't blame the betrayed btw. You want one who believes the cheater is the only one responsible for the affair, because affairs are never justified. Yes both spouses need to change and learn to be better spouses, but the cheater is the one to blame for the affair. Then approach your wife with a "we" perspective. Explain that emotionally you are reacting to her hiding behaviors and it is affecting your ability to be in the relationship, and that 2 years has not made it any better. I suggest you have a solo session first with the MC, being aware that when your wife shows up the therapist is not YOUR therapist but is BOTH of your therapist.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

_mojo_ said:


> Yes child is mine, test was conclusive.
> 
> She did/does not work with the Ex. Guess it could be a co-worker though.
> 
> ...






Mojo

If you want the truth, then you need to understand what you are facing. Most importantly, does your wife know you DNA tested your child? The reason for this, is that, your wife needs to know how you have no trust. This time frame in which she was secretive has definitely affected you. It has affected your marriage severely, and her getting angry or defensive, will be met with strong feelings that she cheated. 

Your first order of business with your wife is to do what @GusPolinski said to do, make her feel safe. This isn't easy, I struggled with this in a major way, being nice to someone who essentially destroyed your marriage. So you need to have an honest discussion with your wife. You need to be vulnerable with your words, and you need to tell her what you saw. Tell your wife anger is not acceptable, being defensive is not acceptable, and that you can't continue forward with this marriage until the truth is told. You have said you would reconcile if she cheated, and you need to tell her that. Explain your red flags, you did not imagine this, and she better be truthful in her responses. If she is truthful, you will offer to reconcile, if she is deceptive you will take stronger actions.

As you talk about this time, find a discrepancy in her story, hammer that discrepancy. Why did it change? Why didn't you say that before? Why are you lying? Just hammer that discrepancy, then tell her because of that discrepancy you find it hard she is telling the truth about everything. This will take time, you won't get a confession first time out. Patience is the key, as is bouncing from the beginning, middle, and end of the designated time period in which you think she cheated. Ask your questions quickly, if she hesitates bounce to the middle, then the beginning, then the middle, and so on. The idea in this is to keep her mind moving from one area to another. This is when the discrepancies will begin to emerge. Hammer them with questions, remembering lies is more difficult then the truth. So if you bounce around her brain will begin to scramble. 

During all of this you have to become what she was, a manipulative, deceiving person with no regard for you. You have to treat her the same, withhold intimacy, and be firm in your resolve to get the truth. The fact is, your wife changed, and possibly did something that is devastating to your marriage. Now you need to show you need the truth. 

Making her feel safe doesn't mean you are rolling over and playing dead. You can be firm during this time, being vulnerable in the first talk is key. As your discussions multiply you begin to squeeze out options, until the only option is marriage or divorce. Yes, it will come to this point, and you won't be bluffing about divorce, you will be strong in your decisions. When she sees the inevitable, divorce, is when you may get the confession. I had divorce papers drawn up, my lawyer still has them, I just filled them out quietly. Only when my wife knew the truth was the only option did she confess. Is it hard? Yes. Did I get trickle truth? Yes. If you get trickle truth stop your conversation, you'll know by what she says.

My wife said they held hands once, then a hug, once, she just George adding a little more in her description of what happened. I stopped the conversation and told her I need the truth, no matter how brutal, but a little at a time was making reconciliation fade away. I gave her one night to think of what she wanted to say. The following night I got a full confession, a little later I was told the twins we had were OM's. Be sure to prepare yourself for the worst, but it will still take you to your knees when you get the truth.

I would also suggest scheduling a polygraph, and telling her when you arrive at the place, then tell her it's the only way for you based on her actions and lies. If you are going to say you can't do this, then don't do anything, she will see you as weak. The biggest understanding you must come to realize is that your marriage was under attack. Invaded, and your wife accepted the advances, and therefore your in a war, respond as such. What you aren't realizing is that your wife put you in a war, a war you didn't know about, but you will now be a soldier. You will now not settle until the truth is revealed, so let me hold your hand as we walk into the polygraph testing. 

At this point she must take the polygraph or you file for divorce tomorrow. Accuracy doesn't matter, you have had your time for honesty, it's sad you lied and I have to base our marriage on the results of a test that may be inaccurate. But this is where you have been brought by your wife, and even if you confess now, I can't take your word. I hope you can live with the results are the final words you say before she takes the test. Do not tell her ahead of time, do not tell her at all so she doesn't educate herself. 

You are in a bad spot mojo, but you can take back your life and not live a life of lies. The question of the day is, are you a soldier, are you strong enough to treat your wife in ways you never thought you would? But remember this, your wife has already done this to you. During your questioning, you must be ruthless, accept no answer as truth, your wife actually has become your enemy. 

I wish you the best of luck, if you have questions I'll try to answer them, you can pm me also if you prefer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Mojo

I too am in reconciliation, my dday was 1/20/14. It can be done if both spouses are willing to work hard, but your wife will need to be remorseful. Oh, your wife isn't remorseful, in fact I see that she is protecting OM each day she doesn't give you the truth. Remorse will begin to come to her only after she confesses or is found out. Prepare yourself for the fact that she may not ever be remorseful, and that's another bridge you must consider.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

drifting on said:


> Your first order of business with your wife is to do what @GusPolinski said to do, make her feel safe. This isn't easy, I struggled with this in a major way, being nice to someone who essentially destroyed your marriage. So you need to have an honest discussion with your wife. You need to be vulnerable with your words, and you need to tell her what you saw. Tell your wife anger is not acceptable, being defensive is not acceptable, and that you can't continue forward with this marriage until the truth is told. You have said you would reconcile if she cheated, and you need to tell her that. Explain your red flags, you did not imagine this, and she better be truthful in her responses. If she is truthful, you will offer to reconcile, if she is deceptive you will take stronger actions.


I agree.

This is the path I took with my stbxw. I had specific examples of not only hiding behavior (closing apps as I walked into the room, etc) but of actual significant deceptions (not related to cheating). I told her that my #1 need in the relationship was open honesty. I told her that I loved her and wanted to be married to her, and that we could work through _anything_ together as long as there was open honesty. So there was the carrot I offered her, that I wanted to work together to keep the marriage. Now the stick: I told her that anything I found out later from another source was an instant divorce.

Yet she did not buy into it. She became very defensive. She refused to go to MC, but then did attend 3 sessions when she found out I had made an appointment, but she did not materially participate in good faith. She proceeded to commit numerous additional lies and deceptions, several of which were quite significant. Her true nature was brought out into the light of day. While it did not provide answers to whether she'd had affairs, it did provide enough information to know the marriage was doomed.

A much better scenario would be a wife who was concerned with your great emotional distress _caused by her actions_ and who wanted to do whatever necessary to repair the marriage. Such a person would immediately institute complete transparency in all electronics and accounts. She would willfully attend MC with you and do all the homework assigned. She would make an effort to spend more time with you and to be more positive around you.

This is a delicate line to walk. You have to be firm that things are unacceptable. You have to insist on her meaningful participation. You have to communicate your distress to her. But you also have to avoid being pathetic, weak, and controlling. I don't think you are those things, but modern pop culture would say you have no right to question her actions or be jealous. You should be projecting strength in your mate guarding as well as strength in your boundaries (that you will not be in a marriage with a deceptive or cheating wife).

I disagree with drifting on's approach with the hammering her. Only if you come across definite lies or inconsistencies. I think a MC office is the place to have these conversations. I would approach it as you don't know how to resolve how her deceptive actions had led you to have nagging doubts. She needs the opportunity to tell you what was going on.

She could have been visiting marriage forums or other sources to deal with her own internal issues. It could be something other than cheating but she would be embarrassed to tell you. I don't think she'll reveal it with hammering on her or repeatedly threatening divorce.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Another option is to take advantage of her suspicions.

Get two vars, one for her car and one for the house. Then start behaving differently. Come home late, hide your screens when she comes in, basically what you saw her doing that made it look like she was cheating.

I would assume she would be talking to people like close friends or affair partner to get their opinion. You may get a lot of info that way.

Eventually, depending on what she does,and with her behavior she believes anyone will cheat, you can tell her you were experimenting to see what she thought was going on when you acted like she did.

I believe she had an affair and there is a good chance something may still be going on.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

convert said:


> If you are good at it, you could try bluffing that you have information.
> 
> maybe that someone sent you a message.
> 
> it's a little tricky though


Or even create a special email address (mail.com is good for that) to send yourself the information as if someone had sent it to you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

_mojo_ said:


> Thanks for this!


"Projection" is also seen in the way a cheater carries on the affair. If the cheater uses texts or Instant Messaging or email to communicate with the affair partner, they will often start to check on their spouse's phone and email looking for the same type of damning messages that they know they themselves are sending.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Thor said:


> I agree.
> 
> This is the path I took with my stbxw. I had specific examples of not only hiding behavior (closing apps as I walked into the room, etc) but of actual significant deceptions (not related to cheating). I told her that my #1 need in the relationship was open honesty. I told her that I loved her and wanted to be married to her, and that we could work through _anything_ together as long as there was open honesty. So there was the carrot I offered her, that I wanted to work together to keep the marriage. Now the stick: I told her that anything I found out later from another source was an instant divorce.
> 
> ...




To clear up the hammering, you need to hammer at the lies, the changes in the story. By hammering a lie out other lies become exposed. This is how you get that confession. Many times my only answer to my wife was "I don't think so, try again". Constant hammering of one lie and soon other lies she told earlier start to show themselves. Bouncing around in the conversation confuses the liar, they begin to shut down as they can't remember the lies fast enough. That's why you hammer, to hammer the lies out. 

I agree this should be done in MC, but his wife has declined to go. After the first time questioning her you can then tell her you need MC for the marriage to continue period. No choice of opting out, she goes or you go to a lawyer for divorce. 

Thor, I agree with your post, and I also believe the hammering is necessary. It's the most effective way to get a lie exposed. Perhaps I should not say hammering but rather interrogate her. Mojo, you need to be firm and strong during your questioning otherwise you will look weak and pathetic, and it is a fine line. Thor is absolutely correct about that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

drifting on said:


> To clear up the hammering, you need to hammer at the lies, the changes in the story. By hammering a lie out other lies become exposed. This is how you get that confession. Many times my only answer to my wife was "I don't think so, try again". Constant hammering of one lie and soon other lies she told earlier start to show themselves. Bouncing around in the conversation confuses the liar, they begin to shut down as they can't remember the lies fast enough. That's why you hammer, to hammer the lies out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I agree with the hammering but OP should also know this is could be a bee line to D

Abusive. 

Controlling. 

Get used to those accusations as they could last a long time. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Mojo,

I think you know that your W cheated on you and she does too. Long term the unconfessed affair will prevent your marriage from ever recovering fully. There is no reason to communicate with anyone in the dead of night except at a minimum an emotional affair.

There is a real possiblity that your WW and whoever this OM is promised to be together someday in the future when they are have a better opporutunity. The OMW may have found out or the boss at work might have told them to knock it off, it may have ended for some less than honorable reason, perhaps the OM called it off. You have a buring ember and I would suspect your WW thinks of OM when she is with you.

Was there anyone your WW talked about and then stopped talking about, I know with my W she talked alot about OM-1 then went silent when it went too far. 

Did your WW ever say "I love you but am not in love with you" this is a classic cheater phrase.

I would suggest that you do whatever you can now, you don't want to stay in a lukewarm marriage for 10 or 30 years only to have her leave you then. There is a long term aspect to affairs which wastes years and decades of peoples lives. I never dealt with my WWs affair from 20+ years ago and I would have nightmares about it throughout my marriage.

Tamat


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

How about a high quality miniature camera that comes with imaging software. Place the camera behind wherever she sits. You want to capture her password strokes, at minimum...capturing her messaging keystrokes and getting screen shots with it would be ideal.

Here is one that is larger than may be necessary but has good imaging. You will need to silence the camera when it is in use. Kill the speaker? Maybe menu driven to turn it off when in use. I believe audio comes on when in viewing mode...not recording mode? You would need to hide it in a book or bag or something. Practice with this thing before putting it into service. It does not come with imaging software.

https://www.amazon.com/Wireless-UOK...75192438&sr=8-5&keywords=Mini+Wireless+Camera


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

I think the bluffing might be the only way to go. First set up some extensive monitoring (keyloggers, VARs, GPS, browser history), then send yourself the anonymous email that says "Sorry to tell you this, but your wife had an affair with my partner 2 years ago." Tell her about the email you received and ask if there's any truth to it. Then use your monitoring to determine whether she attempts to contact the OP. 

Maybe you'll see her sending messages like "You didn't tell me you were in a relationship 2 years ago, you pig!" or "Your wife is emailing my husband!" 

Or maybe she'll be asking friends things like "What should I tell my husband? Should I come clean?" or see if she's searching websites on how to deal with the fallout of an affair.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Ceegee said:


> I agree with the hammering but OP should also know this is could be a bee line to D
> 
> Abusive.
> 
> ...





When I hammered (interrogated) my wife I never heard abusive, controlling, and it didn't lead to divorce. I received many lies, even more excuses, but she wasn't dumb enough to allege abuse or controlling behavior, THAT would have led straight to divorce. Asking questions about why you are on your phone in the dead of night is not abusive or controlling. There is no logical reason unless there is some form of emergency. I would hammer, or for lack of a better word, interrogate her about the middle of the night panicking. I think this would get the most information. 

The choice is yours mojo, just remember, you try to do this nice or kind you're marriage is done. You need to use the same arrogance and hate she used when she was in her affair. It may not have been physical, but I'm suspecting a strong EA in the least.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

He said "could be" and your situation is much different. You KNEW the lies and affair, this guy knows and has found absolutely nothing. This adds an entirely different layer to what comments you received and what a betrayed spouse may hear when they have no information at all. Those words tend to fly fast and furious prior or until discovery and proof appears. He needs to be prepared for an onslaught of accusations especially, if it has nothing to do with an affair.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

_mojo_ said:


> *Currently our relationship is as good as it's ever been.* We rarely argue and the intimacy we once had is returning. Because things are improving I'm hesitant to bring this issue up with her. It's possible I was just being insecure and my suspicion could damage our progress. I don't know how to bring this up without both her being upset and me looking weak/insecure. *I want to just forget it* but it's on my mind daily.


I have had a change of heart. This always seems to presage a disaster and another Crow Munching.

The highlighted text says it all to me.

Drop the accusations......enjoy your wife........continue to snoop until all [continuing] doubt has been extinguished.

If you find another Red Flag, allow Mt Etna to relieve it's tectonic pressure. Right now the mountain is dormant........and may stay that way during your stay above ground.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> He said "could be" and your situation is much different. You KNEW the lies and affair, this guy knows and has found absolutely nothing. This adds an entirely different layer to what comments you received and what a betrayed spouse may hear when they have no information at all. Those words tend to fly fast and furious prior or until discovery and proof appears. He needs to be prepared for an onslaught of accusations especially, if it has nothing to do with an affair.




Quote by mojo
About 2 years ago I suspected my wife of having an affair. I did my best to uncover what was going on at the time but I was never able to figure out the truth. She was definitely being secretive about something but I do not know for sure if she was cheating. I asked at the time but shed denied everything including her behavior which I did not imagine.



Perhaps because I am a betrayed spouse, and jaded, my response is based from this post post. This is from mojo' first post and first paragraph. He questioned and she denied, she even denied her behavior which he witnessed. I believe in my gut now, and I hope mojo does with his gut, at the very least I would schedule a poly and tell her when we arrive in the parking lot outside the examiners office.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

_mojo_ said:


> Too aggressive of an approach for me


How is getting to the truth aggressive? You want honesty yet you're being dishonest with yourself because right now if you could get the truth this would take a weight off your mind.

Problem is you're in a quandry. This happened two years ago and everything is great. Bring it up and risk back sliding and putting strain on the marriage.

So it seems your only option is to hope she cheats again so you can plant a VAR? Doesn't seem like much of a marriage where you're hoping your wife doesn't cheat but if she does you're waiting and better prepared and if she does then it sort of confirms she cheated before.. make sense?

Either way this doubt you have about what happened before will/is continuing to eat away at you, so either you keep your mouth shut and live with it or you bring it up and go from there but you have no proof so basically that's that.

If getting the truth, upsetting the apple cart and putting your mind at ease is "too aggressive", then you have to live with the nagging doubt that made you post in a forum.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

Chaparral said:


> Another option is to take advantage of her suspicions.
> 
> Get two vars, one for her car and one for the house. Then start behaving differently. Come home late, hide your screens when she comes in, basically what you saw her doing that made it look like she was cheating.
> 
> ...


This is possibly my most effective option. If confrontation in the past did not work I don't see how it would work now. She has nothing to gain and much to lose of she did cheat. I'm going to try this strategy over the next couple weeks, I'll report back.

If she approaches me suspecting cheating, then I have a level playing field. She will want answers as do I. I realize this is dangerous and will require careful action. 

Thanks for the help everyone.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> I have had a change of heart. This always seems to presage a disaster and another Crow Munching.
> 
> The highlighted text says it all to me.
> 
> ...


Given that I let 2 years pass without properly addressing the issue, I think you're right. I'm not going to re-confront at this point.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> He said "could be" and your situation is much different. You KNEW the lies and affair, this guy knows and has found absolutely nothing. This adds an entirely different layer to what comments you received and what a betrayed spouse may hear when they have no information at all. Those words tend to fly fast and furious prior or until discovery and proof appears. He needs to be prepared for an onslaught of accusations especially, if it has nothing to do with an affair.


I agree. There is a possibility it was not an affair and if I proceed as if it was, I will damage my marriage. 

Additionally, confrontation without any solid evidence will not result in any resolution. It's been 2 years and thats my fault. To go to her and say, 2 years ago you acted funny whats up with that, did you cheat? I just don't see a confession coming if there is one.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

If it was an affair it is very rare for a person to come clean with no proof. It has happened, but most threads on this and other websites start with "OMG, let it go you are such a controlling person." Two years alter and it is almost guaranteed you are going to make a decent marriage go off the rails. Don't forget, you'll also get the comments about "why are you bringing up the past."


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

There's a reason to why she's going through your phone. She either suspect you of cheating or that you may have uncovered her cheating. But why now?

What has happened recently that has raised her suspicions?

Have you reconnected with someone recently? An old friend, relative, coworker?

Here's a list of possible suspects. 
1. Ex bf. 
2. Coworker 
3. Your best friend
4. Her best friend husband/boyfriend 
5. Neighbor
6. Online dude. 
7. A close relative

Has any of the above reach out to you, after an extended absent, recently?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

Tobyboy said:


> There's a reason to why she's going through your phone. She either suspect you of cheating or that you may have uncovered her cheating. But why now?
> 
> What has happened recently that has raised her suspicions?
> 
> ...


If anything I'd guess 1, 2 or 6 but no I have not had any changes in relationships.

I can only think of two things that could cause her to be suspicious.

1. Last week I got repeated calls from a telemarketer for 3 nights in a row. She jokingly asked me "so whats her name". Maybe she got a little concerned.

2. Maybe a month ago she said something about me being different, that I changed at some point. I said "maybe something happened that caused me to change." The odd thing, she didn't ask me what could have happened, maybe she knows.

I'm thinking maybe I leave open a web search about "how to forgive wife for cheating" and let her find it on my phone. Then see how she reacts. I could always say I was looking up something to send to a friend who's having issues. Maybe...


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

_mojo_ said:


> This is possibly my most effective option. If confrontation in the past did not work I don't see how it would work now. She has nothing to gain and much to lose of she did cheat. I'm going to try this strategy over the next couple weeks, I'll report back.
> 
> If she approaches me suspecting cheating, then I have a level playing field. She will want answers as do I. I realize this is dangerous and will require careful action.
> 
> Thanks for the help everyone.


I think this is an ok strategy, but not without risks.

First, I would suggest only doing things which are softly suspicious. Not things which seem either sure fire indications of an affair and not things which after the fact she'll see as passive aggressive. You want to stir the pot to create a little instability, but you don't want to create new problems which don't already exist.

If she finds out later that you did this on purpose to "show her what it feels like", she may respond very poorly. It is a passive aggressive thing to do, and she will see you as weak for doing it.

If she thinks you really are having an affair, now she's in the same boat you are. She suspects but has no proof. Expect her to go 007 on you, too. In her suspicious state she may start searching the house and cars, and then she'll find your VARs. She may keylog your computer and discover TAM.

Another risk is that she'll just check out of the marriage. She'll see you apparently moving on from her. Then, she may just give up. Her friends may tell her to just dump your ass for cheating on her.

You can create instability but do it in a way which works towards healing not division. I am not a fan of a lot of the suggestions we see here on TAM of playing mind games, bluffing, etc. You're playing with fire, and this is not a tv show.


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

Buy yourself a burner phone and text yourself this 
"When your ready to hear the truth about what your wife did, you can contact me at this number". Do not reply, do not delete. Let her find it herself. This may be your only hope for getting a confession.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

_mojo_ said:


> I agree. There is a possibility it was not an affair and if I proceed as if it was, I will damage my marriage.
> 
> Additionally, confrontation without any solid evidence will not result in any resolution. It's been 2 years and thats my fault. To go to her and say, 2 years ago you acted funny whats up with that, did you cheat? I just don't see a confession coming if there is one.


It is honest and it is fair for you to go to her and say that her behaviors back then appeared suspicious to you, and it has created a block in your ability to be fully invested in the relationship. You go to MC to figure out how to get the trust back. While this does carry the implied belief that she had an affair, it does not accuse her of it.

There's the logical brain and there's the emotional brain. Your logical brain can come to one conclusion, or fail to come to a solid conclusion, while your emotional brain makes the opposite conclusion. Sort of like how a phobia works. You know that spider isn't going to kill you but you can't even go into the garage knowing a spider is in the far corner. In your case you have no proof she cheated and your marriage is otherwise good. So, logically, there should be no reason to have any issues about whatever happened 2 years ago. But your emotional brain is taking over and creating all this mistrust of her.

Her actions _were_ suspicious. You didn't come to this point for no reason. She has an obligation as a spouse to try to overcome your concerns.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

Thor said:


> I think this is an ok strategy, but not without risks.
> 
> First, I would suggest only doing things which are softly suspicious. Not things which seem either sure fire indications of an affair and not things which after the fact she'll see as passive aggressive. You want to stir the pot to create a little instability, but you don't want to create new problems which don't already exist.
> 
> ...


Agreed. After some more consideration I'm not going to go this route. If I'm going to play mind games I'd rather push in the direction of letting her know I know and want to work through it. Seems much better than making her suspicious. Additionally I don't want to make her feel like I do, it's not right.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Thor said:


> It is honest and it is fair for you to go to her and say that her behaviors back then appeared suspicious to you, and it has created a block in your ability to be fully invested in the relationship. You go to MC to figure out how to get the trust back. While this does carry the implied belief that she had an affair, it does not accuse her of it.
> 
> There's the logical brain and there's the emotional brain. Your logical brain can come to one conclusion, or fail to come to a solid conclusion, while your emotional brain makes the opposite conclusion. Sort of like how a phobia works. You know that spider isn't going to kill you but you can't even go into the garage knowing a spider is in the far corner. In your case you have no proof she cheated and your marriage is otherwise good. So, logically, there should be no reason to have any issues about whatever happened 2 years ago. But your emotional brain is taking over and creating all this mistrust of her.
> 
> Her actions _were_ suspicious. You didn't come to this point for no reason. She has an obligation as a spouse to try to overcome your concerns.


I agree with all of the above but would add; When she openly denied the behavior that he witnessed, his trust in her ability to be honest with him was damaged.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Quote by Thor

It is honest and it is fair for you to go to her and say that her behaviors back then appeared suspicious to you, and it has created a block in your ability to be fully invested in the relationship. You go to MC to figure out how to get the trust back. While this does carry the implied belief that she had an affair, it does not accuse her of it.

There's the logical brain and there's the emotional brain. Your logical brain can come to one conclusion, or fail to come to a solid conclusion, while your emotional brain makes the opposite conclusion. Sort of like how a phobia works. You know that spider isn't going to kill you but you can't even go into the garage knowing a spider is in the far corner. In your case you have no proof she cheated and your marriage is otherwise good. So, logically, there should be no reason to have any issues about whatever happened 2 years ago. But your emotional brain is taking over and creating all this mistrust of her.

Her actions were suspicious. You didn't come to this point for no reason. She has an obligation as a spouse to try to overcome your concerns.


Quote by tdsc60

I agree with all of the above but would add; When she openly denied the behavior that he witnessed, his trust in her ability to be honest with him was damaged.





Also add that her being defensive and angry at your vulnerability is destructive. Her response should have been to ACCEPT your concerns and SHOW that nothing is suspicious. She did the opposite, denied it all, basically to shut him down. Mojo, tell her the communication must improve. Also ask her why intimacy declined during this time. You need to know why it declined.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

TDSC60 said:


> I agree with all of the above but would add; When she openly denied the behavior that he witnessed, his trust in her ability to be honest with him was damaged.


And that is fair game to bring up as part of why he is in this situation.

We've had 2 members here that I can recall who had pretty good red flags that their wife had cheated or was cheating. They did the whole 007 thing and discovered it was not an affair. One of them planted VARs and found out his wife was concerned about the marriage and what her issues were. He never told her about his VARs, but used the data to make the necessary changes to heal the marriage. The other member ended up taking her to the polygraph which she passed.

The rest of the time we see the suspicions were justified.

The gut doesn't lie. Something odd was going on with OPs wife. Maybe one of her best friends was having an affair or was having major marriage problems which OPs wife was trying to keep secret. Maybe she was kind of crushing on someone online (maybe in an online game), or had gotten involved in some addictive online social stuff. While none of these would be awesomely good things, they could explain her behavior. Or maybe she was in an affair of some kind.

OP has the right to his reality. He has no obligation or reason to hide it from his wife. In fact, his wife has the obligation as a spouse to help him understand what was going on and to try to heal the relationship. Imagine if her reaction is FU bud, you're being a d1ck! Or if her reaction is she has no idea what he is upset about and so she's not going to participate in getting it resolved. Those reactions would be very informative to OP about what the reality of his marriage is regardless of whether there was an affair.

On the other hand, she could (and hopefully would) respond with concern. She may deny she did anything wrong, but she should be concerned that the marriage is threatened by what he perceived of her actions. Imagine if OP had some weird work thing happen for about 3 months where he was randomly late from work, without good explanation. Imagine if he had been teamed with a woman at that time. It was totally innocent but his wife was worried by it. Wouldn't OP be concerned and want to help find a solution if his wife came to him 2 years later saying she was still messed up by it?

Taking the direct route can be scary. OP may expect her to have a hostile reaction. I think those kinds of fears speak to an underlying problem with the marriage, further indicating the need to get things in the open.

Some 007 makes sense. But now 2 yrs later there is likely nothing to find. Once he's done his investigation I would recommend bringing it into the open with MC. And keep the VARs _very well hidden_ in case she looks for them. Not just taped to the bottom of a seat, but hidden up inside the dashboard or wherever they can't be seen or easily felt.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

drifting on said:


> Also add that her being defensive and angry at your vulnerability is destructive. Her response should have been to ACCEPT your concerns and SHOW that nothing is suspicious. She did the opposite, denied it all, basically to shut him down. Mojo, tell her the communication must improve. Also ask her why intimacy declined during this time. You need to know why it declined.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree. To me this all looks like she had an affair. The question is how can OP go about getting to a solid resolution one way or another. She has used denials and dismissed him so as to take the issue off-the-table. OP has to put it back on the table.

What we haven't discussed is what boundaries to have around this. I suggest MC because that is both a safe space and a captive space. If he approaches this with the carrot and stick of saying he will work through whatever may have happened but he isn't going to put up with lies or silence, she may feel safe enough to come clean. MC provides a feeling of accountability where she has to do her homework and give a reasonable effort in session. She is accountable to the therapist and must at least try to appear like she's working at it.

This allows OP to have the boundary that if she doesn't make a legitimate effort in MC he is unable to continue in the marriage. Or something like that. Absent MC his boundary is what? If you don't come clean I'll stamp my feet and be mad? His only card is the D card, and he has no way of establishing if she is telling the truth if she denies anything. So he can insist on a polygraph or he'll D?


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## mistakesweremade (Aug 15, 2016)

TDSC60 said:


> There is a condition called Projection. Where a person projects their own behavior onto another person. As in a person who is cheating sometimes assumes their spouse is capable of the same behavior and they become jealous or accusatory of their spouse.


When I was a WW, I would check my husbands phone. Not because I thoughts he was cheating, but because I wanted to see if he was close to catching me. 

I know this makes me a huge piece of sh#&$t... I already know this. I'm just telling you what I did.


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## mistakesweremade (Aug 15, 2016)

I think the saddest thing about this is, it doesn't matter if she didn't cheat on you. You already think she did. So, even if she took a polygraph and passed, or even if you found old emails that suggest maybe she was getting too close to an ex but she stopped it before it went any further...everything is tainted now. 

I feel like you want to know she did cheat. Not the other way around.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

mistakesweremade said:


> I think the saddest thing about this is, it doesn't matter if she didn't cheat on you. You already think she did. So, even if she took a polygraph and passed, or even if you found old emails that suggest maybe she was getting too close to an ex but she stopped it before it went any further...everything is tainted now.
> 
> I feel like you want to know she did cheat. Not the other way around.




When I couldn't find any proof of my wife's affair, I would have loved to have found my gut was wrong. Didn't work out that way for me. But during my investigating and having no proof at all I was preconceived that she had cheated. Now that she has confessed, I wish she hadn't cheated, I would rather eat crow the remainder of my life, but sometimes life doesn't work that way. When you are lost, your wife acts like OP's, it's hard to rationally argue away what you saw. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

_mojo_ said:


> If anything I'd guess 1, 2 or 6 but no I have not had any changes in relationships.
> 
> I can only think of two things that could cause her to be suspicious.
> 
> ...


You do not want her to know you are still suspicious. Keep this to your self. Make her suspicious of you and see if you can force her into a mistake.

Does she have any close friends? Long term affairs turn into quasi marriages. There is no need to keep in constant contact. One Brittish guys wife only met up with her AP once or twice a year. 

Usually there are many signs when an affair ends just like when it's going on. They can't hide their broken hearts,being dumped,etc. just like withdrawal. If you didn't notice on top of the cheating behaviors it could still be going on......just more routine.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

_mojo_ said:


> * I will damage my marriage*.


My point....your words. *Your marriage is going OK at the moment*. Do not de-rail the train unless you have solid proof.

She has not left the marriage, she shows no other signs of cheating. She acts loving. Welcome this, encourage this. Hold her tight....look into her eyes. If they stare back passionately, be optimistic.

Let's say she did have some sort of EA before, or improper communication with some OM. It appears over, she seems like she shut that down. She got scared. In the end she chose marriage to you.

I will never recommend rug-sweeping. Note: *If you do not have a Dust Hare in hand, there is no Dust Bunny to rug sweep*. 

She did snoop your phone, recently. That is not a Red Flag but does warrant reflection. Whatever you do, snooping, VARing, keep it to yourself...do not get caught.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

mistakesweremade said:


> I think the saddest thing about this is, it doesn't matter if she didn't cheat on you. You already think she did. So, even if she took a polygraph and passed, or even if you found old emails that suggest maybe she was getting too close to an ex but she stopped it before it went any further...everything is tainted now.
> 
> I feel like you want to know she did cheat. Not the other way around.


This is incorrect. I just want to know the truth. That truth may be any number of things. I want the relationship I once had, the one with no walls.


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

mistakesweremade said:


> When I was a WW, I would check my husbands phone. Not because I thoughts he was cheating, but because I wanted to see if he was close to catching me.
> 
> I know this makes me a huge piece of sh#&$t... I already know this. I'm just telling you what I did.


Thank you for sharing this. I pass no judgement.

Just out of curiosity. Had you found something on your husbands phone that indicated he knew, would you have come clean?


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

TDSC60 said:


> I agree with all of the above but would add; When she openly denied the behavior that he witnessed, his trust in her ability to be honest with him was damaged.


This is very insightful.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

_mojo_ said:


> This is incorrect. I just want to know the truth. That truth may be any number of things. I want the relationship I once had, the one with no walls.


Without knowing you personally, it is difficult for anyone here to have a good idea of if your wife previous had an affair or not. Do you have any friends or co-workers who could give you some insight of whether you have a solid reason to be suspicious or if you are likely being a bit too paranoid? 

Can you give more specifics about why you suspect an affair? I get that she seemed to be secretive and distant a couple of years ago. Is there more that I missed?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Steve1000 said:


> Without knowing you personally, it is difficult for anyone here to have a good idea of if your wife previous had an affair or not. Do you have any friends or co-workers who could give you some insight of whether you have a solid reason to be suspicious or if you are likely being a bit too paranoid?
> 
> Can you give more specifics about why you suspect an affair? I get that she seemed to be secretive and distant a couple of years ago. Is there more that I missed?


The biggest red flag is that he is here. When men come here, the odds the wife,SO,GF is or was cheating is very close to 100%.

That could be one of the most weird statistics I can think of.

I used to say it was 95% just leave some doubt. I would bet you could look through four years of threads and not find ten instances of a wife thought to be cheating that wasn't.


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## nursejackie (May 22, 2015)

mojo- i am sorry you are here and i empathise greatly. We are in somewhat similar positions. @ years ago my H withdrew from me, frequency of sex dropped, and he had his phone attached to his hip. I would get up in the night and see that he had fallen asleep with it in his hands. I checked his phone- noticed some mildly flirty texts with a coworker and did a soft confront.

He denied any wrong doing. I further snooped and found that he had omitted or lied about several things to do with his contact with this OW. He had gone to her house several times, had deleted texts between them and had lied about his whereabout when I called him. 

We went to MC. I fixed some things about myself, he made changes to himself. It has been a long and painful process. Two years later I still do not know if anything happened between them but strongly suspect based on the red flags and his behaviour there was at least an EA- probably more. He will never admit this. 

Like you I am faced with not knowing the truth, not wanting to be played for a fool, and since our marriage is now better than t has ever been- not wanting to blow it up. MC said in IC that I had to make a choice whether or not I can live with the uncertainty. She felt that in a 30 year marriage this is but a blip and I should be careful not to sacrifice my happiness over some "dust". 

I trust and verify. I do random checks on his phone, and I check phone GPS if I something seems like it may not add up. So far there is nothing. Eventually I hope that I will have enough time and distance between this so as not to feel the need to check anymore. We are happy. We are both trying so hard to make this better than it ever has been. Most of the time that is good enough for me. Sometimes its not and I have to work through those feelings. 

My advice would be to trust and verify -enjoy your new closeness - hope for the best but if it turns out the worst know that you made a choice in your best interests at the time-then you make a new choice 

Good Luck


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## _mojo_ (Sep 27, 2016)

nursejackie said:


> mojo- i am sorry you are here and i empathise greatly. We are in somewhat similar positions. @ years ago my H withdrew from me, frequency of sex dropped, and he had his phone attached to his hip. I would get up in the night and see that he had fallen asleep with it in his hands. I checked his phone- noticed some mildly flirty texts with a coworker and did a soft confront.
> 
> He denied any wrong doing. I further snooped and found that he had omitted or lied about several things to do with his contact with this OW. He had gone to her house several times, had deleted texts between them and had lied about his whereabout when I called him.
> 
> ...


Trust but verify sounds like an oxymoron to me. It's a clever way of saying lack of complete trust. But yes I do this to, checking in for piece of mind. Unfortunately I find there's limited depth in a relationship when trust must be maintained day to day. It's a barrier that only time seems to erode but suspicion restarts this clock often. Trust is hard to repair, if possible at all.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

If you suspect that she's _currently_ cheating, GPS and VAR her vehicle.

_Discretely._

Check out @weightlifter's "Standard Evidence Post" thread for info on this.

If your wife drives a GM vehicle, you can enable Family Link as an add-on to your monthly OnStar service (if you're a subscriber) for a few extra bucks per month, which enables a reporting feature that will check on and report (via email) on the vehicle's location on whatever internal you specify. That said, I believe that the shortest interval is every 15 minutes.

A year or so I bought a product called Automatic for my truck in order to monitor my mileage. It's a device that plugs into the diagnostic port on pretty much any vehicle manufactured since the mid 90's. A while back I received an email from the manufacturer touting an updated device that sounds like a pretty nifty GPS device w/ no monthly cost. Two things that I'll note, though: 

1) It beeps when you turn the vehicle on and when the vehicle exceeds 70 mph. This can be disabled, though, so you'll want to look into that prior to installing it (in your wife's vehicle).

2) It's white, which means that it might be readily noticeable if the diagnostic port in your wife's vehicle is in sight.
@ScrambledEggs also has a certain GPS that he highly recommends, though I can't recall the manufacturer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mistakesweremade (Aug 15, 2016)

_mojo_ said:


> Thank you for sharing this. I pass no judgement.
> 
> Just out of curiosity. Had you found something on your husbands phone that indicated he knew, would you have come clean?


I would love to answer yes to this but I honestly don't know.

They say cheaters are cowards and I was the worst of them all.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> @ScrambledEggs also has a certain GPS that he highly recommends, though I can't recall the manufacturer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



https://www.gpslogbook.com

Cheap annual fee, first year is included. 

Low profile and can be easily cosmetically modified to look like just a car charger.

You have to retrieve it form the car and download the logs.

Integrated with Google Maps and data is extremely accurate. Right down to the parking space they parked in. Even shows the vehicle going through drive through lanes for fast food.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I can tell you what I believe I would do:

Since I can't help myself and have to be direct, I would sit her down and lay out my suspicions. I would say that I have done my research and her behavior constituted true red flags & that I feel that I have a right to an honest explanation. I would say that my doubts are potential relationship killers.

All this would be true and above board.

Then, I would listen to her conversations that were recorded with the VARs I set up in strategic places to see what she is saying in private. (This is the 'non-direct' me.)

I wouldn't just file away the doubts and live with them.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Perception is reality.

So a few years ago, you perceived that she was less than committed to your marriage. Today you perceive that she is committed to your marriage.

So at the time with all the information you needed, you stuck with the marriage, continued to have sex and fathered a child.

Now, you have a wife that is committed and you are questioning your prior choices... I think you need to remind yourself that you chose all this. Maybe you can think about different choices for the next time while remaining a defender for what you need your marriage to be... I don't agree with attempting to prove what happened in the past.


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