# Casual opposite sex friendship



## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

During the process of separating from my husband, he mentioned more than once that he had always worried about what i was doing at work when he wasn't around. This took me by surprise, as i had never cheated, and he had never brought up a concern about it during our 10 year marriage. When i asked for details on why he worried about this, he clammed up and didn't want to talk about it.

So now I'm left wondering if i did something wrong, or if this is in his head. 

I work with technology, and the vast majority of my coworkers are guys. I have casual "work friendships" with some. We don't meet outside of work unless it's a couples activity. I'm Facebook friends with some, but my husband had all my email and social media passwords, and they were stored on our browser. I spend a lot of time with my phone (I basically keep my brain in there), but it's unlocked and i never hesitated to let him use it. I would sometimes go out to lunch with male coworkers, but never alone, always with a group (sometimes mixed, sometimes not). 

i guess I'm just looking for some male perspective, for the sake of future relationships. Would this type of behavior from a woman concern you? Is it possible to have casual opposite sex friends, with enough transparency?


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Based on what you said, it all sounds good to me other than Facebook. What is "facebook friends"? Did you interact with them about none business/work stuff? 

TO ME, it's disrespectful and inappropriate to have opposite sex friends while in a serious relationship.

But it really doesn't sound like you engaged in such behavior (based on what you are saying above).....unless you are not telling us everything? It seems like you kept it work only/not outside of work hours. Work related interactions even lunch with other people/group are all fine IMO.

Based on what I have seen with other males (by being around them over the years). VERY VERY VERY few men will be "friends" with you unless they find you attractive or want more.

I simply don't believe that male/female friendship is even possible.....not based on that kind of foundation.

Here is more:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_lh5fR4DMA


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## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

"Facebook friends" is liking each others pics, and occasional snarky comments on a status update. No real conversations, no messaging.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

that.girl said:


> "Facebook friends" is liking each others pics, and occasional snarky comments on a status update. No real conversations, no messaging.


See the thing about facebook is, it's grey area. 

You are "friends" and one can assume in real life you are friends as well.

Facebook is like going to high school reunion (I like this one better, it's a giant megaphone for retards)......a place where random people can reach out/contact you.....that are not really part of your life....or real friends.

So even though it seems completely innocent and it is......one can look at your page, your messages etc and say "hmm, she is friends with this guy".

Hope you understand.

There is TONS of materials out there on how facebook effects relationships. Heck, my wife is doing a research paper in college as we speak.

In general, I recommend staying away from it all together.

Friend is a name I reserve for special people in my life that really mean something to me and are part of my life on regular basis.

Facebook friend is simply "someone you know" or that you might work with....or gazillion other things.


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## Methuselah (Nov 24, 2014)

that.girl said:


> During the process of separating from my husband, he mentioned more than once that he had always worried about what i was doing at work when he wasn't around.


This is his own insecurity talking.




> I work with technology, and the vast majority of my coworkers are guys. I have casual "work friendships" with some. We don't meet outside of work unless it's a couples activity. I'm Facebook friends with some, but my husband had all my email and social media passwords, and they were stored on our browser. I spend a lot of time with my phone (I basically keep my brain in there), but it's unlocked and i never hesitated to let him use it. I would sometimes go out to lunch with male coworkers, but never alone, always with a group (sometimes mixed, sometimes not).


As a man, most of what you wrote above seems to be reasonable to me. 

The only "iffy" item with me would be the social media friends part. I personally segregate my work "friendships" (I hesitate to use that word as well, since I am not really "friends", more "acquaintances" if you prefer a term other than "co-workers") from friends in my personal life. 

In a few cases when I have formed genuine friendships with people at work, which have lead to outside-work interaction, those have been same-sex or couples-related friendships. We're talking perhaps a half-dozen in my 50+ years of being in the workforce.

I am not sure why you would want your co-workers to know what is going on in your personal life via social media. Does the single guy "George" in accounting you've friended on Facebook really need to see pictures of your family and kids, etc... 

Naturally some of these boundaries should be/have been discussed in advance with your partner and his opinion obtained on them, and you could have a discussion and make adjustments to your actions based on his feelings and the outcome of your discussion.



> Would this type of behavior from a woman concern you? Is it possible to have casual opposite sex friends, with enough transparency?


As written above nothing would overly concern me, but a discussion about the social media part may have been in order. However I would start to become concerned if any one of those male "casual" friendships started to take on a more one-on-one role (i.e. text/facebook messaging). It does open the door to potential emotional investment, even if originally intended to be innocent.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

you're transparent, you aren't spending alone time with men, you aren't getting emotionally involved with them or sharing problems

it's fine and all within good boundaries imo


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## Methuselah (Nov 24, 2014)

DoF said:


> There is TONS of materials out there on how facebook effects relationships.


I've always been interested in the statistics of how many marriages Facebook has destroyed... and whether or not the presence of Facebook was directly responsible, or merely the conduit (meaning the marriage would have still failed but the conduit by which the cheating took place would have been different.)


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

It could be an issue with some men but your ex should have expressed his concerns way before you divorced and even now it seems like he had a communication problem.

It does not sound like you did wrong in your activities. You should probably encourage communication and honesty as well as discussing your boundaries.

Sounds like he had some insecurities, nothing wrong there, but did not communicate with you. Also sounds like he had some boundaries that you were crossing but he never let you know.

My boundaries with my wife would be crossed if she went somewhere with an all male group or, of course, a single male.

Mixed crowds are fine depending on circumstances and who is involved and we keep exes out of our lives.

We each have same sex friends but never see them alone and all of them have to be respectful of our marriage.

That is just us. But it is important for every couple to talk about and establish boundaries for their relationship then keep them.


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## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

I think a lot of my confusion over this is because he never once questioned my faithfulness until the day i told him I wanted out. After that, he questioned it quite a bit. So it's hard for me to tell if i was crossing boundaries all along (he's not a good communicator), or if he was scrambling for answers. He never expressed concern with my friends or social media before. Actually, he didn't question the Facebook thing after the breakup either - we both tend to add a lot of acquaintances as FB friends. His issue seemed to be with what i was doing while actually at work. 

I am a tomboy working in a male dominated field, so i think clear communication and boundaries will be very important going forward. I'm fine with being transparent about my friendships, but if i had no male friends, i wouldn't have many friends left at all.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

that.girl said:


> I think a lot of my confusion over this is because he never once questioned my faithfulness until the day i told him I wanted out. After that, he questioned it quite a bit. So it's hard for me to tell if i was crossing boundaries all along (he's not a good communicator), or if he was scrambling for answers. He never expressed concern with my friends or social media before. Actually, he didn't question the Facebook thing after the breakup either - we both tend to add a lot of acquaintances as FB friends. His issue seemed to be with what i was doing while actually at work.


He was a poor communicator or was simply afraid to confront you about it.

Regardless, clearly it did damage.



that.girl said:


> I am a tomboy working in a male dominated field, so i think clear communication and boundaries will be very important going forward. I'm fine with being transparent about my friendships, but if i had no male friends, i wouldn't have many friends left at all.


You are correct on the first part.

On the 2nd part, this kind of concerns me a bit. You just told us you are not friends with any males other than co workers.

Now you are telling me the opposite.... 

Good luck finding someone special. You are going to need it while you have male friends.

Pick what's important to you. Friendships or Relationship.


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## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

Sorry if i wasn't clear. I'm a bit introverted and don't have many friends outside of work. The few i do have are female.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

that.girl said:


> Sorry if you misread me. I'm a bit introverted and don't have many friends outside of work. The few i do have are female.


Most people are "introverts".....from what I see, that includes me.

I'm a stay at home type, my wife is my best friend......and kids (but I'm a parent first of course).

From what I see around the neighborhood, most people are like me and you. Many don't go out much/don't have friends over etc.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Seems on the up and up to me. Agree with whats been posted.

Only thing I would add is for the future be careful about mentioning any one male co-worker too much. So when recounting your day etc, be careful about always saying how funny "Bill" was etc etc. 

You cant control working with mostly men. Many guys however will get jealous if it seems one or two co-workers in particular are always mentioned in a very flattering light.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Don't let someone's else's insecurity become your own.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Most people think pretty highly of themselves if you can get them to be honest enough to admit it. You told him you were leaving him. He probably thinks he was a pretty good guy, so the most logical explanation in his mind is that you must have found a new thang. He probably can't imagine why any sane woman would leave him.


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## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

When I first left he was thinking I must have another guy lined up, but now that we've been apart for a few months and I'm still single, I think he believes me. Our separation had nothing to do with my friends, that came up later.

I always did my best to keep my friendships visible to him. I made it clear to the guys around me that I was off the market, and avoided doing things that might make them think otherwise. My phone and all my accounts were wide open to him. I had nothing to hide. If that wasn't enough, he never told me so. So I guess, past all that -



Wolf1974 said:


> Don't let someone's else's insecurity become your own.


There's been some really good advice on here, Facebook is something i hadn't thought about much. Thank you.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

that.girl said:


> During the process of separating from my husband, he mentioned more than once that he had always worried about what i was doing at work when he wasn't around. This took me by surprise, as i had never cheated, and he had never brought up a concern about it during our 10 year marriage. When i asked for details on why he worried about this, he clammed up and didn't want to talk about it.
> 
> So now I'm left wondering if i did something wrong, or if this is in his head.
> 
> ...


I don't see any issue w/ this. You can't realistically be expected to work in such a male-dominated field and NOT interact w/ male co-workers socially from time-to-time. In fact, none of what you've described above would seem to constitute "friendship", per se, but rather a very casual "acquaintanceship" that's pretty much expected to exist between co-workers.

I mean... you can't just sit in your office or cube all day w/ your head down and nose to the grindstone. When you work w/ other people (as most of us do), you have to build bridges and interact.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

I wouldn't worry too much about it. I think we see more often than not people don't tend to leave relationships until they have a backup plan in place. It a logical conclusion on his part when you decided you wanted to break up with him. In this case it didn't turn out to be true.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

that.girl said:


> I think a lot of my confusion over this is because he never once questioned my faithfulness until the day i told him I wanted out. After that, he questioned it quite a bit.


He suspects you might have left him for another man. That is absolutely where his questions come from. 

That's certainly a common theme on TAM. A guy posts that his wife just decided to leave for "no reason." He's told by TAM she MUST have another man waiting in the wings.

You H might not be on TAM, but I'm sure it's very common for guys to wonder if their wife is leaving them because she found someone else (even if that has ZERO basis in reality and has nothing to do with why she is leaving).

Even though he "believes you" that you didn't leave for another man, part of him still wonders. And that leads to wondering if you were cheating on him at some point during the marriage with other people.

For the record, there are a lot of people who have opposite sex friends - yes, even on Facebook - and are not remotely interested in cheating nor have they cheated, nor will they cheat. Moreover, their spouses aren't assuming cheating just because of opposite sex friends, and they aren't prohibiting them either. Only on TAM have I seen the preponderance of "no friends, none!" as a rule the couple believes in.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

norajane said:


> He suspects you might have left him for another man. That is absolutely where his questions come from.
> 
> *That's certainly a common theme on TAM. A guy posts that his wife just decided to leave for "no reason." He's told by TAM she MUST have another man waiting in the wings.
> *
> ...


This is actually really good advice. When it comes from out of the blue like that and what your spouse is saying about why they want the divorce doesn't make any sense it's a good bet that the truth is that they have someone else they are cheating with. Happend to me in that exact way.

But the larger issue is you are going to have opposite sex friends and coworkers most likely if you are involved in life. I agree with you Nora, TAM is the only place where I have heard absolutely only same sex friends. In today's world I just don't even see how that's possible. You need boundrys for sure but not the absence of an entire gender.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Do keep in mind that often, especially in the dying days of a relationship or marriage, that the very things your partner expresses concern about regarding your behavior, isn't about your behavior. 

It's about their own.

Happens with infidelity all of the time.

He gets to feel better about his inappropriate relationships, if he presumes that you are doing the same.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

When it comes to same sex friends you simply need to be aware of the playing field.

My new girlfriend has a lot of guy friends. She told me so, and asked me if that was going to be something I'd be OK with.

I answered, "Pre-existing condition."

I also know it's highly likely most of her guy friends are either married or are orbiters. They aren't men she wants to be partnered with ... else, I wouldn't be in the picture.

I just believe the ground rules need to be set when it comes to OSF's.
If we are having problems and you want to talk to your OSF about it rather than me ... that's a huge stumble in my book.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

that.girl said:


> i guess I'm just looking for some male perspective, for the sake of future relationships. Would this type of behavior from a woman concern you? Is it possible to have casual opposite sex friends, with enough transparency?


Wouldn't concern me at all. Casual work friends is perfectly fine. And really, it can't be avoided for the most part.

I wouldn't be concerned about such things as a group of work friends going out after work for a drink as long as it didn't spill into the wee hours of the morning. Home by a decent hour is the key, to me anyway.

Now hanging out ALONE with an opposite sex "friend" casual or good friends, I would not be ok with. To me its just inappropriate.

But what you described isn't a problem at all. Nothing wrong there.


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## hawkeye (Oct 6, 2012)

If you trust each other, I don't see what the big deal is. My wife has male friends. I have female friends. We even do things with these friends without our spouse there. Not everyone loses complete control of themselves just because they're with an opposite sex friend without their spouse being present.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

that.girl said:


> i guess I'm just looking for some male perspective, for the sake of future relationships. Would this type of behavior from a woman concern you?


Nope, not at all. One of my wife's best friends is male (older, married man). Casual friends and co-workers? No problem whatsoever. If she suddenly was growing closer to a man at work in a more connected way, that would be a conversation. 




that.girl said:


> Is it possible to have casual opposite sex friends, with enough transparency?


Plenty of people do. We both do. Many of the people we know personally do. To be honest we never even had a conversation about OSF until I started posting on TAM. In our world it's an expectation and largely a non-issue.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Deejo said:


> When it comes to same sex friends you simply need to be aware of the playing field.
> 
> My new girlfriend has a lot of guy friends. She told me so, and asked me if that was going to be something I'd be OK with.
> 
> ...


Concur 100!

I really should have a standard post for this topic but the longer I am here the more unique I believe I am to this issue. I have always had endless female friends since I was a teenager. I have been emotionally intimate with many of them because they trust me. For the majority of my professional life I worked in female dominated industries and have deep friendships that will last a lifetime. 

I just had lunch with one of my dearest friends last week. I love her to death. I have no doubt the feeling is mutual but what else is mutual is the respect we have for each others marriages. Beyond that there is just mutual respect. I would say I have about 5 married female friends like this. 

My wife completely trusts me with them because she knows me and how I feel about them. I respect them and value them as individuals not as a potential pin cushion. 

I think a great deal of this has to do with how I was raised and the rest has to do with the fact that I was never a player. Not even close.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

RClawson said:


> Concur 100!
> I really should have a standard post for this topic but the longer I am here the more unique I believe I am to this issue. I have always had endless female friends since I was a teenager. I have been emotionally intimate with many of them because they trust me.


I think you're unique...for TAM. I don't know too many men in the "real" world who don't have at least one close female friend. And I know a lot of people, from various backgrounds. 



RClawson said:


> I just had lunch with one of my dearest friends last week. I love her to death. I have no doubt the feeling is mutual but what else is mutual is the respect we have for each others marriages. Beyond that there is just mutual respect.


Ding! Ding! Ding! That's it. I would never consider anyone a friend, male or female, who doesn't have a respect for my wife and marriage. To me, when you're in a relationship with ANY person who lacks respect for your marriage, that's the ultimate red flag.

I had a relatively new female friend this year, a sister from church, who crossed a boundary with me by saying something very disrespectful about my wife. She was cut off that day. Makes it sometimes an awkwarad sitation


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Man finds woman with ex-girlfriend's name for a free trip around the world | Fox News

Would anyone go for this? I sure wouldn't


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## Bruticus (Dec 18, 2014)

that.girl said:


> During the process of separating from my husband, he mentioned more than once that he had always worried about what i was doing at work when he wasn't around. This took me by surprise, as i had never cheated, and he had never brought up a concern about it during our 10 year marriage. When i asked for details on why he worried about this, he clammed up and didn't want to talk about it.
> 
> So now I'm left wondering if i did something wrong, or if this is in his head.
> 
> ...


No, it wouldn't concern me. It appears that you have done nothing wrong, and that the only blame to go around here lies with him for clamming up and not talking with you about whatever concerns he has.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

DoF said:


> Based on what I have seen with other males (by being around them over the years). VERY VERY VERY few men will be "friends" with you unless they find you attractive or want more.
> 
> I simply don't believe that male/female friendship is even possible.....not based on that kind of foundation.
> 
> ...


Here's part two.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYQmqxQgEBY

I have only once in my life had an opposite-sex work friend.

I was so naive. To this day I am embarrassed about how stupid I was. Only time I was ever the subject of "water-cooler" gossip.

So, I am biased.

I am against opposite sex friendships if you are in a committed relationship.

It's just a matter of time until you have a bad experience.

Once again, I'm biased.

Your husband's parting comments to you, kind of prove to you how prevalent a problem this is.

Can you search for interest groups outside of work where you might make female friends?

Good Luck.


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## D.H Mosquito (Jul 22, 2014)

I keep a very close eye on her friends osf now after being stabbed in the back by her, part of R was to offload those ones i felt were toxic to any chance of fixing things and eventually a lot of thre other ones dropped away i do have respect for two of them who approached me and said they heard what happened and wanted to still be her friend but only if i was cool with it, but i have to be realistic she works with males and so long as no red flags appear again then she should be free to have works night out and works dinners etc


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## hawkeye (Oct 6, 2012)

intheory said:


> I am against opposite sex friendships if you are in a committed relationship.
> 
> It's just a matter of time until you have a bad experience.


What do you consider a bad experience? I've had many female work/school friends since I've been married. One time before we were going to move I went out to the bars with a couple of them. One of them propositioned me at the end of night. I said thanks but no thanks. It takes two to tango. Hell, I came home that night and told my wife and we both laughed about it. The woman even came to visit us several months later in our new town. We all went out and had a good time.

It would have been a bad experience if I was an idiot. If people don't trust their spouses around the opposite sex your marriage has some issues.


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## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

Someone made the point that what's important is that your opposite sex friends respect your marriage. I think that's very true. All of my male friends had enough respect for my marriage that they didn't try anything inappropriate. And if they had, i would have shut it down and not spent time with them. 

I think saying that a man just can't hang around a woman without trying to sleep with her is unfair. Surely (most) guys deserve more credit than that!


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

that.girl said:


> Someone made the point that what's important is that your opposite sex friends respect your marriage. I think that's very true. All of my male friends had enough respect for my marriage that they didn't try anything inappropriate. And if they had, i would have shut it down and not spent time with them.


Very true. All friends, opposite sex or not, need to be a friend of the marriage. That includes the group of girls you might go out with, or the guys a husband goes out with.

And as far as opposite sex friends, even truer. And if you have to shut them down, then at that point they should no longer be considered a friend. The line has already been crossed, and the attraction already made known.




> I think saying that a man just can't hang around a woman without trying to sleep with her is unfair. Surely (most) guys deserve more credit than that!



Let me ask you this. And I know the scenario I'm about to lay out is MUCH different than what you are talking about in this thread. But just for argument's sake, would you let your man spend time alone with a female friend? Go back to her place for a movie, a beer, leaving at 2am?


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

that.girl said:


> I think a lot of my confusion over this is because he never once questioned my faithfulness until the day i told him I wanted out. After that, he questioned it quite a bit. So it's hard for me to tell if i was crossing boundaries all along (he's not a good communicator), or if he was scrambling for answers. He never expressed concern with my friends or social media before. Actually, he didn't question the Facebook thing after the breakup either - we both tend to add a lot of acquaintances as FB friends. His issue seemed to be with what i was doing while actually at work.
> 
> I am a tomboy working in a male dominated field, so i think clear communication and boundaries will be very important going forward. I'm fine with being transparent about my friendships, but if i had no male friends, i wouldn't have many friends left at all.


My take on Facebook...it is a site for family and close friends outside of your work. I so no reason for Bob, Bill and John from IT to be your friend on FB. It is a great way to keep transparent and your coworkers from creeping your FB page.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

that.girl said:


> I think saying that a man just can't hang around a woman without trying to sleep with her is unfair. Surely (most) guys deserve more credit than that!


A man can hang around with a woman he considers hot without *trying* to sleep with her.

However, he would *like* to sleep with her. If he's in a committed relationship he won't try (one hopes). Or if he knows that she's not interested. Or if he truly values the friendship and is afraid of messing that up. But he would *like* to, conditions permitting.

I believe women often see men friends as people that they would not want to have sex with, because they just don't think of them that way. I also think women like surrounding themselves with men who have the hots for them. It's an ego boost.


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## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

vellocet said:


> Let me ask you this. And I know the scenario I'm about to lay out is MUCH different than what you are talking about in this thread. But just for argument's sake, would you let your man spend time alone with a female friend? Go back to her place for a movie, a beer, leaving at 2am?


No, i wouldn't be okay with that. Not because i don't trust him, but because it's better to avoid a situation like this so that there's no doubt in your partners mind. I would not hang out with a male friend in a situation like this either. It's a matter of respect for your partners feelings.

Now, if she's in a relationship, the four of us could hang out and drink together, no problem. 

ETA: Exceptions can be made for trusted friends. There's a difference between a woman we've known for years and one he just met.


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

that.girl said:


> Now, if she's in a relationship, the four of us could hang out and drink together, no problem.


Even in that scenario, you still have to be very careful not to allow alcohol to intoxicate both you and/or your husband. I've been privy to cases where two intoxicated spouses pass out and later find out that their respective spouses took the opportunity to hook up with with each other. :wtf:


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## hawkeye (Oct 6, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> A man can hang around with a woman he considers hot without *trying* to sleep with her.
> 
> However, he would *like* to sleep with her. If he's in a committed relationship he won't try (one hopes). Or if he knows that she's not interested. Or if he truly values the friendship and is afraid of messing that up. But he would *like* to, conditions permitting.
> 
> I believe women often see men friends as people that they would not want to have sex with, because they just don't think of them that way. I also think women like surrounding themselves with men who have the hots for them. It's an ego boost.


Oh cripes, lots of people think about sleeping with other people all the time. If that was a problem I wouldn't leave my house in the morning. And I really don't think men and women are as different in this regard as you'd like to think.


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## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> I believe women often see men friends as people that they would not want to have sex with, because they just don't think of them that way. I also think women like surrounding themselves with men who have the hots for them. It's an ego boost.


I can only speak for myself and the women i know, but we don't surround ourselves with men who want us. In fact, it can be incredibly awkward to spend time with a guy who likes you, when you don't feel the same way.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Let me ask you this. And I know the scenario I'm about to lay out is MUCH different than what you are talking about in this thread. But just for argument's sake, would you let your man spend time alone with a female friend? Go back to her place for a movie, a beer, leaving at 2am?



I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I have experience here.

First off my wife doesn't "let" me do anything, so if the question was posed to her the entire concept wouldn't apply. 

But I have a female friend, who was my former "work wife", that I absolutely could hang out with until whatever hour I wanted, without it being an issue in my marriage at all. Why wouldn't I? I have less than zero attraction to her, and my wife knows it. I have a couple female friends like this.

Now would I do that with a woman that I know there's an attraction to? Hell no. I don't see any reason to tempt that situation on any level, and I just wouldn't feel right about that at all.

All OSF are not created equal.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

chaos said:


> Even in that scenario, you still have to be very careful not to allow alcohol to intoxicate both you and/or your husband. I've been privy to cases where two intoxicated spouses pass out and later find out that their respective spouses took the opportunity to hook up with with each other. :wtf:


You can't approach life looking for the absolute worst possible outcome of any situation or you'll never do anything. I've heard of cases where people have died in a car crash going out to do the grocery shopping but it doesn't stop the world from going to the grocery store.

If the spouses were looking for an opportunity to hook up then they would have found one somehow.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

You can have completely respectful opposite sex friendships in which NO boundaries are crossed, yet as in your situation, if you break up with an SO for your own reasons that have to do with only them and the quality of your relationship, it's easier for them to blame others than recognize and take responsibility for their own shortcomings. It's human nature.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

that.girl said:


> No, i wouldn't be okay with that. Not because i don't trust him, but because it's better to avoid a situation like this so that there's no doubt in your partners mind. I would not hang out with a male friend in a situation like this either.



That has kind of been my whole point with regards to the opposite sex friends thing. 

There is a difference in the two types of friendships. If you can't do the exact same things you'd do with one of your same sex friends with your opposite sex friends, then its not a true friendship. 
Otherwise you should be able to do the same things with opposite sex friends.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

jaquen said:


> But I have a female friend, who was my former "work wife", that I absolutely could hang out with until whatever hour I wanted, without it being an issue in my marriage at all. Why wouldn't I? I have less than zero attraction to her, and my wife knows it. I have a couple female friends like this.
> 
> Now would I do that with a woman that I know there's an attraction to? Hell no.



That was my whole point. If you can't do everything with a female friend that you would do with a male friend, go to her place alone, go off on a weekend like you would with another guy to do whatever guy stuff, then it isn't exactly a "friendship" in the same sense. Friends sure, but its MUCH different.


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## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

vellocet said:


> That has kind of been my whole point with regards to the opposite sex friends thing.
> 
> There is a difference in the two types of friendships. If you can't do the exact same things you'd do with one of your same sex friends with your opposite sex friends, then its not a true friendship.
> Otherwise you should be able to do the same things with opposite sex friends.


I'm not sure i follow you. I would be able to watch a movie and have a few beers with any of my male friends without them or me trying anything inappropriate. I choose not to if it would make my spouse uncomfortable. 

I think this says less about the quality of our friendship, and more about the general trust level of my relationship, and the amount of respect i have for my partner's feelings.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

that.girl said:


> I'm not sure i follow you. I would be able to watch a movie and have a few beers with any of my male friends without them or me trying anything inappropriate. I choose not to if it would make my spouse uncomfortable.


But you just said if your man would want to go over to another woman's house for a movie and drink, then you would not be ok with it. Shouldn't he also be afforded the same if you think you should be able to as well?

I get what you are saying, but its all about the situations. If I have a male friend, we can go out of town on a weekend, go hit some bars(which I really don't do), go back to his place for a beer and some Playstation until 2am or so, etc.

If opposite friendships can be considered the same, then a man and woman can do the same things as I've said above.

And if not, then they can't be considered "just friends" in the same sense. Friends sure, but it is different.


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## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

I see. But i also said i would be okay with it if i knew and trusted her. What i didn't say, and probably should have, is that a large part of the reason i might not be okay with it is because he wouldn't want me to do the same thing. 

I absolutely agree that it really is all about the situation. There's no hard and fast rule, it's really a case-by-case thing. I was never trying to say the friendships were the same. I was just trying to figure out where the line was between respecting his feelings, and catering to unreasonable insecurity.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Deejo said:


> When it comes to same sex friends you simply need to be aware of the playing field.
> 
> My new girlfriend has a lot of guy friends. She told me so, and asked me if that was going to be something I'd be OK with.
> 
> ...


When I started dating my wife I did the same thing. I had a woman friend that I had known for a few years and explicitly inquired if it would be a problem. It wasn't and I took her to meet my friend she quickly became friends with her as well. 

Both spouses need to be in agreement with the extent of interaction with OSFs. They work for some and don't for others. If a couple chooses to have OSFs then they should also agree upon boundaries followed to protect the marriage.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

vellocet said:


> But you just said if your man would want to go over to another woman's house for a movie and drink, then you would not be ok with it. Shouldn't he also be afforded the same if you think you should be able to as well?
> 
> I get what you are saying, but its all about the situations. If I have a male friend, we can go out of town on a weekend, go hit some bars(which I really don't do), go back to his place for a beer and some Playstation until 2am or so, etc.
> 
> ...


Friendships are not the same with OSFs if you are married. At least for me anyway. With my male friends sometimes I talk about my marriage and discuss some issues but I never discuss marriage issues with an OSF. I avoid touching female friends. I avoid providing too much emotional support to my female friends. I do these and other things by choice to keep good boundaries with OSFs to minimize the chance that feelings could develop. 

Your example of the spend an evening with a friend, have drinks play games until 2am is interesting. I wouldn't do this with any of my friends without advanced notice to my wife. We schedule family and spouse time which takes precidence. I used to schedule a monthly game with a group of friends where this would happen at times. But I wouldn't seek out or drink privately one-on-one with an OSF nor accept an invitation to do so unless my wife were invited. 

However I have and do go away with OSFs for a weekend to climb and my wife is fine with this. The difference is the activity. My wife doesn't climb so I can't do it with her. My main climbing partner is a guy but with young kids he is less available for weekend trips. So when the weather is good and my main partner isn't available I sometimes go with an OSF on a weekend trip that has been scheduled with my wife. Sometimes she comes along and cooks for us and sightsees during the day and sometimes she doesnt. My wife knows its about the climbing and not just hanging with a friend to get to know them better.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

meson said:


> Your example of the spend an evening with a friend, have drinks play games until 2am is interesting. I wouldn't do this with any of my friends without advanced notice to my wife.


I'm not talking about advanced notice. I'm sure most women don't mind if 2 guys get together to watch a game and drink, or play games once in a while. I would gather most women WOULD have a problem if it was alone with another woman.




> However I have and do go away with OSFs for a weekend to climb and my wife is fine with this.


Alone? Sharing a hotel room? Because guys can do that, share a room, wives/gfs wouldn't have any problem with it I'm sure (aside from the time away from each other)

This is what can happen with same sex friends going away for a weekend. I doubt many would like it their bf/gf/husband/wife shared a room for a weekend with the opposite sex.

Point is, not everything you could do with a SSF would be deemed appropriate by a SO if it were an OSF. Therefore the friendships are not the same. Not saying OSF are bad. Just different.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

chaos said:


> Even in that scenario, you still have to be very careful not to allow alcohol to intoxicate both you and/or your husband. I've been privy to cases where two intoxicated spouses pass out and later find out that their respective spouses took the opportunity to hook up with with each other. :wtf:


I'd consider that a Godsend. If I got drunk and my wife took that opportunity to screw around, that's not an issue with OSF, that's an issue with an immoral, piece of trash wife who I'd be better off without.

Why the hell would I NOT want to discover that? "Be very careful" for what?


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

vellocet said:


> That was my whole point. If you can't do everything with a female friend that you would do with a male friend, go to her place alone, go off on a weekend like you would with another guy to do whatever guy stuff, then it isn't exactly a "friendship" in the same sense. Friends sure, but its MUCH different.


That's how you define friendship Vellocet, that's not how I define it.

I have lots of amazing friends; I'm blessed in that way, and grateful for it. Most of my closest and best friends are men. And guess what? There are things I'd say, or do, with one that I wouldn't with the other. I have completely different relationships with the very closest friends in my life, as each are different people. 

According to your definition, I should treat each friendship generically, and if I don't than any differences in approach, or boundaries, signifies the closeness of the friendships as invalid. That frankly sounds absurd beyond belief to me. There are different boundaries in ALL my relationships, every single last one.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

jaquen said:


> According to your definition, I should treat each friendship generically, and if I don't than any differences in approach, or boundaries, signifies the closeness of the friendships as invalid. That frankly sounds absurd beyond belief to me. There are different boundaries in ALL my relationships, every single last one.


Think its absurd all you want.

I'm saying that if in a committed relationship, if the idea is "friends", then it should be ok to do the same things with an OSF as you would with a SSF.

You can say you have different boundaries all you like. You can say you wouldn't hang out drinking at friend 1's til late in the morning, but not friend 2, because friend 2 isn't into drinking.

But if friend 1 and friend 2 are the exact same type of person, just different genders, then your committed partner shouldn't have a problem with you spending time alone with them at their place, late at night, whatever, because its "just friends"

I'm saying if its the idea that they are friends then you SHOULD be able to do the same things with them. The question wasn't whether or not you choose what activities with each friend based on their personalities.

So would your wife ok with you going to a female "friend's" house and staying there doing whatever until 2 or 3am? Unless she is a die hard lesbian, I don't think it would go over too well.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

vellocet said:


> I'm not talking about advanced notice. I'm sure most women don't mind if 2 guys get together to watch a game and drink, or play games once in a while. I would gather most women WOULD have a problem if it was alone with another woman.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with you. Friendships are not all equal even with same sex friends. There are guys that I would take off of work for to help and others that I would not. Likewise with sleeping arrangements. There are guys I would share a tent with and others that I wouldn't.

Climbing is the same way. There are guys i will climb with outside and guys i wont. The same is true for women. The bottom line is safety not sex and my wife understands that. When I go climbing with women we always sleep in separate tents or accommodations. It's in a campground or park with many others around so it's in a public place even though we are effectively alone. 

My main climbing partner is similar to me in this regard. He is married but he also goes away for weekends with women and sleeps separate. His wife understands it and supports just as mine does. In fact he and I went to Utah once and we stayed with one of his wife's OSFs for a night in Moab. He was super nice to put up two guys he had never met before because he is a friend of my friends wife.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

vellocet said:


> I'm saying if its the idea that they are friends then you SHOULD be able to do the same things with them. The question wasn't whether or not you choose what activities with each friend based on their personalities.
> 
> So would your wife ok with you going to a female "friend's" house and staying there doing whatever until 2 or 3am? Unless she is a die hard lesbian, I don't think it would go over too well.


Actually it does matter. Not all friends are equal. I don't do the same things with all same sex guys. Likewise with women there is the extra difference due to biology and its wise to draw boundaries that suit the individual and sex. 

Attractions and attachments can form even with the standard boundaries in place. Being gay doesn't change anything. I knew a gay couple that split up and one of the partners started dating an opposite sex person. One should have boundaries in place that suit the situation and people. It's not a one size fits all thing definitely. 

So yes at least in a couple of marriages the spouses allow their spouses to travel with and be with an OSF overnight with boundaries.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

that.girl said:


> I see. * But i also said i would be okay with it if i knew and trusted her. * What i didn't say, and probably should have, is that a large part of the reason i might not be okay with it is because he wouldn't want me to do the same thing.
> 
> I absolutely agree that it really is all about the situation. There's no hard and fast rule, it's really a case-by-case thing. I was never trying to say the friendships were the same. I was just trying to figure out where the line was between respecting his feelings, and catering to unreasonable insecurity.


If you fully trusted your husband, why would you need to trust his female friends? If one of his OSFs would ever make a pass at him, then he would be able to do the right thing and turn her down. And also to make good judgements as to whether she might try again. 

That said, in this scenario, it would also mean that it would be up to him to decide as to whether he should spend any more time -- alone time as well as with other people, including you around.

If you fully trusted your husband, then why would the character / reputation / whatever of his female friend figure into whether your husband could hang out with her alone?


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## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

NextTimeAround said:


> If you fully trusted your husband, why would you need to trust his female friends? If one of his OSFs would ever make a pass at him, then he would be able to do the right thing and turn her down. And also to make good judgements as to whether she might try again.
> 
> That said, in this scenario, it would also mean that it would be up to him to decide as to whether he should spend any more time -- alone time as well as with other people, including you around.
> 
> If you fully trusted your husband, then why would the character / reputation / whatever of his female friend figure into whether your husband could hang out with her alone?


That's a good question, I guess it wouldn't matter much. Honestly, I always trusted my husband, and was responding to a hypothetical question. I don't think I really would have been bothered by him hanging out with a woman like that, but he never wanted to, so I never had to think about it very much.

But I'm pretty sure he would have been bothered if I had wanted to do that, so I wouldn't have considered it. That was the point of this thread - I tried hard to be transparent and respectful, and later he made me wonder if it was enough.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> If you fully trusted your husband, why would you need to trust his female friends? If one of his OSFs would ever make a pass at him, then he would be able to do the right thing and turn her down. And also to make good judgements as to whether she might try again.
> 
> That said, in this scenario, it would also mean that it would be up to him to decide as to whether he should spend any more time -- alone time as well as with other people, including you around.
> 
> If you fully trusted your husband, then why would the character / reputation / whatever of his female friend figure into whether your husband could hang out with her alone?


It is a spouses prerogative to ensure that their spouse hangs out with people that are friendly to a marriage. It is too risky to let you spouse hang out with someone that really wants more than friendship. And sometimes the spouse is in a better position to see this than themselves. My wife let me know that she didn't want me to climb one woman and I listened to her and didn't climb with her any more. A spouse should have a reasonable veto power on friends that aren't marriage friendly.


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## hawkeye (Oct 6, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> If you fully trusted your husband, why would you need to trust his female friends? If one of his OSFs would ever make a pass at him, then he would be able to do the right thing and turn her down. And also to make good judgements as to whether she might try again.


This is the same point I've been trying to make on this and other threads. I can't imagine being in a marriage where I have to always second guess what my spouse is doing. And I can't imagine being in a marriage where my spouse is dictating who my friends are. 

Several years ago one of my wife's exs came to town. He's actually an old friend of mine who I've lost touch with. He wanted to get together but we had a young child and no babysitter. I sent my wife and I stayed with the kddo. I didn't spend one second worrying about it. Not because I trusted him, but because I trusted her.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

TG

Im late to the party but the facebook thing would spook me. I'm a pretty secure guy but Facebook is evil and mere mortals have no hope to fight that supernatural entity.

My wife works in an IT field. She is also quite introverted. Difference is she naturally makes male friends and has real trouble making and keeping female friends. That alone is not enough to spook a guy who isn't projecting.

But if you're withholding intimacy, constantly on your phone, using facebook and generally not very nice to your man, alarm bells would go off.

But mainly the facebook part honestly. If I didn't know your story I would say all is well accept for facebook.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Think its absurd all you want.


Let me clarify. How you define "friendship" is absurd for my life, my views and my standards. If it works for you, I applaud that, honestly and sincerely. My point is that your rules and definitions of what constitutes a friendship simply has no implications or impact on my real world relationships.

I have different, unique boundaries on literally all my relationships, of both sexes. Clearly you do the same things with all your SSF, which I don't even do. There are entire topics of discussion, actions, even physical contact, that would be fine for one of my male best friends, but totally inappropriate for another same sex friend. So having a different set of boundaries for some female friends doesn't in any way, shape, or form nullify those relationships for me. YMMV.



vellocet said:


> But if friend 1 and friend 2 are the exact same type of person, just different genders, then your committed partner shouldn't have a problem with you spending time alone with them at their place, late at night, whatever, because its "just friends"...So would your wife ok with you going to a female "friend's" house and staying there doing whatever until 2 or 3am? Unless she is a die hard lesbian, I don't think it would go over too well.


My wife doesn't dictate who I spend time with, and how long I spend time with them. If I had a female friend that I hung out with until 2 or 3am, my wife would be well aware of who she is, it would be no surprised or shock, and she'd see me when I got home. This is a non-issue in my life, so you're assumptions don't apply here.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Ok, just going to have to take your word for that.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I suppose so.

Especially since I was out late with a (former) female friend just this year. It's odd to me that you seem truly baffled that other people have different standards than you do.


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## hawkeye (Oct 6, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I suppose so.
> 
> Especially since I was out late with a (former) female friend just this year. It's odd to me that you seem truly baffled that other people have different standards than you do.


Seems you and I are in the same boat. What I do with my friends matters little to my wife, no matter what sex they are. It's the great thing about trust.

But there seems to be a large disconnect between us and the other side of this argument. I simply can't imagine being in a relationship where spouses worry so much about the other's friends. I can't imagine ditching friends because my wife doesn't trust me with them. The whole concept is just bizarre to me. The other side of the argument can't grasp the concept of having opposite sex friends because everything is an invitation to cheat.

We'll all go round and round with this one forever.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I think it is a bad idea to continue to be friends with someone who does not like your spouse; is dismissive of him /her; who has even once given you advice on how to manage your relationship;

regarding those friends who are OSF who flatly refuse to ever go out with your spouse when you are not around; 

who try to proposition you which is a sign of disrespect to your spouse, can you really continue to be married to your spouse AND friends with that person who may want to try it on again sometime in the future..


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## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

hawkeye said:


> But there seems to be a large disconnect between us and the other side of this argument. I simply can't imagine being in a relationship where spouses worry so much about the other's friends. I can't imagine ditching friends because my wife doesn't trust me with them. The whole concept is just bizarre to me. The other side of the argument can't grasp the concept of having opposite sex friends because everything is an invitation to cheat.


Maybe that was part of the problem for us. My husband and i were on opposite sides of this fence. 

I trusted, and he worried. I knew he worried a little bit, so i always made an effort to keep him in the loop so he would feel reassured that i was faithful. But i suspect that no matter what i had done, he would have worried. Maybe it's just his nature.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

intheory said:


> I am against opposite sex friendships if you are in a committed relationship.


I'm feeling more this way too. Each to their own. 

Admittedly my husband has 'called it' when I've viewed it as just a friendship (from my side at least). An example is when I joined a company a few years back and befriended the folks in the IT department. Gotta love the IT peeps. There was a group of us that would hang out. One guy was into music and we built a rapport around that. No deeper bond developed. He invited us to gigs from time to time. We were meant to go to a gig with him and his new girlfriend. Hubs was sick and couldn't make it but was okay for me to still go. The guy picked me up - I thought we were on our way to pick his girlfriend up but turns out she couldn't make it either. We went to the bar (this guy doesn't drink), enjoyed the gig and he dropped me back home. Nothing untoward. Hubs was a bit funky that it had just been the two of us as 'He fancies you..' I called nonsense - plus he's got a girlfriend. My husband isn't the easily jealous kind. That trust we speak of? Needs to be trusting our spouse at times too to call things as they see it and to respect that.

Time passes, this guy gets tickets to Stone Temple Pilots. Hubs isn't a fan but said we'd go together (great!). Afterwards hubs reiterated he felt this guy fancied me. Being a royal d*ck-head that I can be at times, I said nah, he's more like an annoying brother. Months go by, he invites us to a comedy gig with a group. Met his girlfriend this time. The first thing she said upon meeting me was how much he talks about me and she was glad to finally meet me. Hubs gave me the eyebrow. I agreed with hubs' sentiment. And haven't seen him since then. That was some time ago. 

I don't actively develop friendships with guys. I don't have the need for it. When hubs and I met, most of my friends were guys due to the hobby I was involved with. Now my friends are women, or couples together, that we see together. I did tell my husband recently that I wasn't keen on him going for a Friday night drink with his married female coworker. She'd invited him. I trust him, I'm still not cool with it though. He respected my feeling on this and instead suggested they catch up for lunch during the week. 

I don't think there's a right or wrong with this. It's simply what we're comfortable with and perhaps for various reasons.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

hawkeye said:


> Seems you and I are in the same boat. What I do with my friends matters little to my wife, no matter what sex they are. It's the great thing about trust.
> 
> But there seems to be a large disconnect between us and the other side of this argument. I simply can't imagine being in a relationship where spouses worry so much about the other's friends. I can't imagine ditching friends because my wife doesn't trust me with them. The whole concept is just bizarre to me. The other side of the argument can't grasp the concept of having opposite sex friends because everything is an invitation to cheat.
> 
> We'll all go round and round with this one forever.


This.

But, for me, it's a condition mainly of this board. My experience with TAM isn't reflective of most of the views I encounter in real life.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

hawkeye said:


> The other side of the argument can't grasp the concept of having opposite sex friends because everything is an invitation to cheat.


Then you clearly didn't read what I posted.


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