# Never, ever Marry(just my opinion)



## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

I'm encouraging my kids to never marry(well, I might keep my mouth shut with the girls, anyway).
Seriously, who in his or her right mind would marry these days. You are completely ****ed if your spouse cheats and decides to just dump your ass.
It is a sick way to live, this marriage deal, IMO.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I really find this difficult to argue with.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Make sure to sign a pre-nup, don't make them the center of your life and you'll be fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## The Renegade (May 16, 2012)

Marriage is the greatest gift a man can give to a woman. In return he gets to have offspring, which is the greatest gift she makes to him (given the investments). It's kind of a genetic deal. 
If she gives him the kids and does not get married (committed to), she is screwed. If he gives her the marriage, but does not get offspring (sex), he's screwed. 
Looks clear to me and I believe it won't change any time soon.


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## ilgitano (Apr 2, 2012)

My career as a married man is over. I even cringe at the thought of living with a woman again.


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## Vegemite (Apr 12, 2012)

Marriage is a very personal deal. It's not for everyone and there's luck and hard work to make it work. 

I wish I'd never got married. But that's just me.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

My marriages absolutely sucked. What was the common denominator-Oh, that's right. Never mind.


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## Shamwow (Aug 15, 2011)

Personally, I loved being married. Obviously, wasn't too fond of the way it came crashing down. But the majority of it was worth the risk to me.

I may be in the minority, but I see myself married again in the future...but with an entirely different outlook from the get go.


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## muttgirl (Mar 23, 2012)

There is a lot of bitterness. Why did you get married? Kids? They can happen without marriage. Love? If you said "I do" before the daydream fantasy part of the deal was over, you didn't know enough about each other. Were they cheating before and this time was the final straw? They don't change. Marriage is about many different issues and you and the spouse working out an operating system on many levels. So what is eating at you? Hating us all is not a good sollution. Get to the real problem so you can fix it.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

I do not hate you, muttgirl. Nor do I hate anyone else here(well, unless my XW is posting here).
It is just my opinion. Marriage is a bad deal.

And, bitterness gets a bad name, as does "judgemental".
There is nothing wrong or unpleasant about being bitter as regards one's XW. It feels good to hate her. She is an evil pig. Same with being judgemental. I could not live happily without judgement. My life would be chaotic if I used no judgement. I might have hired Ted Bundy to babysit if I had no judgement.


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## Confused_and_bitter (Aug 6, 2011)

BigLiam said:


> I do not hate you, muttgirl. Nor do I hate anyone else here(well, unless my XW is posting here).
> It is just my opinion. Marriage is a bad deal.
> 
> And, bitterness gets a bad name, as does "judgemental".
> There is nothing wrong or unpleasant about being bitter as regards one's XW. It feels good to hate her. She is an evil pig. Same with being judgemental. I could not live happily without judgement. My life would be chaotic if I used no judgement. I might have hired Ted Bundy to babysit if I had no judgement.


It is hard to not agree.

I find myself telling others that marriage is a waste of time.


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## Kurosity (Dec 22, 2011)

I believe marriage as an instatution. It is a MENTAL institution.:rofl::rofl:


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

"I never knew what real happiness was until I got married. And by then it was too late." -Max Kauffmann :rofl:

"The man who says his wife can't take a joke, forgets that she took him." -Oscar Wilde

“Do you know what it means to come home at night to a woman who'll give you a little love, a little affection, a little tenderness? It means you're in the wrong house, that's what it means.”
-Henny Youngman

:lol::lol::lol:


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## NatashaYurino (Jan 2, 2012)

BigLiam said:


> I'm encouraging my kids to never marry(well, I might keep my mouth shut with the girls, anyway).
> Seriously, who in his or her right mind would marry these days. You are completely ****ed if your spouse cheats and decides to just dump your ass.
> It is a sick way to live, this marriage deal, IMO.


I don't get it. Why you might keep your mouth shut with your girls?


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## shakirah (May 10, 2012)

make a simple dinner with your husband and try to talk him in a calm, respectful manner about the things that you want to tell him.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Shamwow said:


> Personally, I loved being married. Obviously, wasn't too fond of the way it came crashing down. But the majority of it was worth the risk to me.
> 
> I may be in the minority, but I see myself married again in the future...but with an entirely different outlook from the get go.


Swoon

Oh sham yes!! Yes I'll marry you!


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Sorry got caught up in the emotions for a moment there


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## jen1020 (Dec 18, 2011)

NatashaYurino said:


> I don't get it. Why you might keep your mouth shut with your girls?


I'd like to know this too, if you are now against marriage because of your experience, why would it be different for your sons, as opposed to your daughters? I really think you should let them make their own minds up anyway.

I've been burned by my current marriage and my unfaithful and abusive husband. I'm not so angry about it however, that I would never consider getting married again. It may take me a lot longer to get to that point, but I'm not going to write it off.

Jen


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## Vanton68 (Feb 5, 2012)

if this marriage that I'm in a ends up with a D, I would never ever ever ever get married again. even if you held a gun to my head, I would say go ahead and pull the trigger.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

shakirah said:


> make a simple dinner with your husband and try to talk him in a calm, respectful manner about the things that you want to tell him.


Huh?


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Two-time loser here, so henceforth I'm going the George Clooney route. Beautiful girlfriends, perhaps long-term relationship, but no marriage.

I enjoyed being a husband but I can't afford to keep giving away half my assets.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

That's what my boyfriend said, then he fell for me. I was feeling the same way, and fell for him. We realized that we were just scre*ed on that point. Even if you are not married, sometimes you find yourself in the middle of a relationship, that is like marriage. It seems to be unavoidable, even for the careful who think they are hanging out with a safe, reliable, trustworthy friend. :-o


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

jen1020 said:


> I'd like to know this too, if you are now against marriage because of your experience, why would it be different for your sons, as opposed to your daughters?


Primarily because the matriarchy has reworked marriage into a system that financially rapes and enslaves men in divorce. Even if the wife cuckolds the man and he discovers he is paying to raise the children of other men, the state requires him to continue to do so. The state is complicit in adultery.

Furthermore, women no longer require a marriage offer to put out. Marriage originated as a contract where the woman provides exclusive, frequent sexual access to the man and the man provides protection, food, and shelter to the woman. In today's world, most women freely offer sex to any guy who lifts weights or plays guitar and has the slightest clue about game (a small number of guys to be sure).

All of this is a strong disincentive for young men, at least those who are paying attention, to not get married.


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## jen1020 (Dec 18, 2011)

Machiavelli said:


> Primarily because the matriarchy has reworked marriage into a system that financially rapes and enslaves men in divorce. Even if the wife cuckolds the man and he discovers he is paying to raise the children of other men, the state requires him to continue to do so. The state is complicit in adultery.
> 
> Furthermore, women no longer require a marriage offer to put out. Marriage originated as a contract where the woman provides exclusive, frequent sexual access to the man and the man provides protection, food, and shelter to the woman. In today's world, most women freely offer sex to any guy who lifts weights or plays guitar and has the slightest clue about game (a small number of guys to be sure).
> 
> All of this is a strong disincentive for young men, at least those who are paying attention, to not get married.


Whenever I read your posts, you always seem to have such a low opinion of women.

We aren't all out to enslave men and make their lives a misery, being unfaithful and having babies by other men. What about the men who are unfaithful in marriage, why shouldn't a woman get slightly more assets if she is now the main carer of the children and was loyal throughout?

Also reading your link, well I (yes a female no doubt!) was the main breadwinner before we had children but I gave up my job so I could give time to them. I find the link pretty offensive and it makes terrible assumptions.

I was asking Bigliam the question anyway, so I'm not sure you can answer for him, unless he agrees with you, which he may.

Jen


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

My first husband is a serial cheater. I left after a 2 year relationship(1.5 year marriage).

I never intended to remarry. I worked full time during the day, went to college 2-3 nights a week. However, I met a real man who respects me in every way possible. He's the love of my life and will do anything for me. We adore each other, we are each others best friends! I can't imagine life without him. He is my everything. After 13 years(12 married years), we are still in the honeymoon stage. We both work very hard meeting each others needs. A true family man. 

Even after breaking my neck, which was a life changing event, my husband stands by my side 1,000%. I never thought I'd meet a man that I could be so compatible with. My husband has no expectations of me and nor do I of him. We are fabulous at communicating and hold nothing back. We talk everything through and compromise well. Plus, he's the best looking man on this planet!


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## Vanton68 (Feb 5, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Primarily because the matriarchy has reworked marriage into a system that financially rapes and enslaves men in divorce. Even if the wife cuckolds the man and he discovers he is paying to raise the children of other men, the state requires him to continue to do so. The state is complicit in adultery.
> 
> Furthermore, women no longer require a marriage offer to put out. Marriage originated as a contract where the woman provides exclusive, frequent sexual access to the man and the man provides protection, food, and shelter to the woman. In today's world, *most women freely offer sex to any guy who lifts weights *or plays guitar and has the slightest clue about game (a small number of guys to be sure).
> 
> All of this is a strong disincentive for young men, at least those who are paying attention, to not get married.


Where are those women again? lol


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

BigLiam said:


> I'm encouraging my kids to never marry(well, I might keep my mouth shut with the girls, anyway).
> Seriously, who in his or her right mind would marry these days. You are completely ****ed if your spouse cheats and decides to just dump your ass.
> It is a sick way to live, this marriage deal, IMO.


I have to respectfully disagree. Marriage in itself is not the problem. It is a commitment between two people, made out of love, in which they join together as a unit and raise children together and make vows to each other to stand with each other against any intruder.

I came from a rather large family and can proudly state that my parents married only once, to each other, and remained married throughout the life of my Mother who died in 2001. My father has not remarried. They had ups and downs, richer and poorer, sickness and health, and all the while, as their child, I felt stability, comfort and love. I learned that a marriage is a partnership and a commitment. And yes, I wanted the same for myself, so I went into my marriage with the intent to follow in my parents footsteps.

I remained married for 28 years and raised two wonderful sons, who to this day stand by me. We are a family. It's my spouse who has excluded himself from this bond by selfishly seeking out OW for his own personal gratification when he didn't need to.

As for advising my sons, they too will eventually marry someone, but it will be someone they are completely devoted to and who is completely devoted to them. I believe that seeing the problems in my marriage will help open their eyes to potential problems before they occur and will choose their mates accordingly. I would never discourage them from marrying, but if I see some indication that their choice wants a marriage for the wrong reasons, I will advise them to consider the consequences. Once they are married, I will hold my peace, accept their spouse, and hope they have learned well what I have shown them.

And, as a side note, they are currently learning that even when a spouse cheats, there is a higher road to take; to not allow the CH to turn me into a "victim" where he can have his cake and eat it too. I left him. I live well. I love my sons and they are still very important to me and they know this. We will be fine. It's the CH that will end up alone, miserable, and with nothing but his selfish ego.

And no, I will probably not marry again.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

jen1020 said:


> Whenever I read your posts, you always seem to have such a low opinion of women.


I no longer put them up on the 19th century pedestal as I used to, but I have a very high opinion of women. I just understand their nature much better than I did as a young man. 



jen1020 said:


> We aren't all out to enslave men and make their lives a misery, being unfaithful and having babies by other men.


I would think that very few women ever premeditate these kinds of actions at the point of marriage, yet they still occur on a massive scale due to the changes in law over the last 150 years and especially the last 50.



jen1020 said:


> What about the men who are unfaithful in marriage, why shouldn't a woman get slightly more assets if she is now the main carer of the children and was loyal throughout?


What you are describing is a fault divorce, where "adultery" (as it is now defined in most states) is a factor in the property settlement. That's the old way which has been supplanted in most jurisdictions by no-fault divorce.



jen1020 said:


> Also reading your link, well I (yes a female no doubt!) was the main breadwinner before we had children but I gave up my job so our kids I could give time to them. I find the link pretty offensive and it makes terrible assumptions.


The link specifically agrees with you about adultery and asset division, so which section do you disagree with?


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Vanton68 said:


> Where are those women again? lol


At any bar or grocery store near you. You have to know some "game" too. :smthumbup:


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

The following is from *Barely Half of U.S. Adults Are Married – A Record Low* 



> _Previous marriage experience plays a big role in whether people want to get married (again) or not. A majority of adults who have never been married say that they want to get married (61%), compared with only 26% of adults who have ever been married but are currently unmarried._


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## Vanton68 (Feb 5, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> At any bar or grocery store near you. You have to know some "game" too. :smthumbup:


 game, rats thwarted again!


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Primarily because the matriarchy has reworked marriage into a system that financially rapes and enslaves men in divorce. Even if the wife cuckolds the man and he discovers he is paying to raise the children of other men, the state requires him to continue to do so. The state is complicit in adultery.
> 
> Furthermore, women no longer require a marriage offer to put out. Marriage originated as a contract where the woman provides exclusive, frequent sexual access to the man and the man provides protection, food, and shelter to the woman. In today's world, most women freely offer sex to any guy who lifts weights or plays guitar and has the slightest clue about game (a small number of guys to be sure).
> 
> All of this is a strong disincentive for young men, at least those who are paying attention, to not get married.


As a betrayed spouse I think it is outrageous that a man should pay for children that are not his or even split half the assets or provide alimony for a cheater. 

Once someone cheats the marriage contract should be null and void. 

On the other hand. I contributed a lot to our marriage, I contributed half of the money to start our first business, relocated to another area to be closer to my husband's elderly father, worked and contributed and was cautious with my spending, cut out vacations and luxuries so that he could expand the first business and start a second and than a third.

I recently learned he had been cheating. So, I think I will likely not remarry, but not because I am bitter towards men. 

Mainly because I can't trust my own judgment to choose a non cheater. 

You see, I trusted my husband 100 percent. He was allowed on guy only trips, boy's nights out, and I never questioned his whereabouts if he claimed he was working late or going to a business function. 

I thought he was such a nice guy. 

He took advantage of my trust and I am heartbroken. 

Still, I don't blame all men, I blame myself for being so blind


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Vanton68 said:


> game, rats thwarted again!


All jokes aside, looking at your avatar shot, you ought to have women all over you at the pool. I'm sure you're well within the Golden Ratio.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Shamwow said:


> Personally, I loved being married. Obviously, wasn't too fond of the way it came crashing down. But the majority of it was worth the risk to me.


This was me, too. I loved being married. Until the end.

I am not sure it's something I'd do again though. I'm not sure it's for me. 

But people who want to get married, I say, have at it. You only get one life so you might as well do what you want and if that includes getting married, who are we to judge? Go for it.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> I contributed a lot to our marriage,...
> 
> I recently learned he had been cheating. So, I think I will likely not remarry, but not because I am bitter towards men.
> 
> Mainly because I can't trust my own judgment to choose a non cheater.


Again, modern marriage with modern divorce is a bad idea. Hopefully, you got what was coming to you in your settlement, but the deck is stacked in your favor as a woman and against a man in your same situation.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I love when the people/group who hold the majority of power bemoan the fact that they don't have what's fair


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

And what "group" are you talking about?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

in Mach's case, males


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

So...your girls can marry and get "effed" over, but your boys can't?

Wow.

lollll.. Ok then.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> in Mach's case, males


Males don't have the political power, anymore. They are outvoted by women.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

snicker


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> in Mach's case, males



Yikes, what color is the sky in your world? Males have all the power? Been drafted recently? Made it off the Titanic?


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## InsecureSecurity (Aug 7, 2011)

Machiavelli said:


> Males don't have the political power, anymore. They are outvoted by women.


Yeah, all those high profile women in positions of political power are definitely a testament to that. Oh wait...


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

that_girl said:


> So...your girls can marry and get "effed" over, but your boys can't?
> 
> Wow.
> 
> lollll.. Ok then.


No, it's just I know them and they would never listen to me on this. I think they sense, innately, that the divorce deck is stacked against males.


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## InsecureSecurity (Aug 7, 2011)

BigLiam said:


> Yikes, what color is the sky in your world? Males have all the power? Been drafted recently? Made it off the Titanic?


So your reasons that men don't have power is the draft, which hasn't happened since Vietnam, and the Titanic sinking which happened 100 years ago? Interesting.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

BigLaim: 

Why do you want to push off how you feel onto your kids? Let them decide for themselves if they want to marry or not. It's their life.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

jen1020 said:


> Whenever I read your posts, you always seem to have such a low opinion of women.
> 
> We aren't all out to enslave men and make their lives a misery, being unfaithful and having babies by other men. What about the men who are unfaithful in marriage, why shouldn't a woman get slightly more assets if she is now the main carer of the children and was loyal throughout?
> 
> ...


:iagree:

Many women aren't out to get anything from any man. When my ex and I split, I asked for the dining table (it was a gift to me) and the washer/dryer. That was it. Didn't even ask for child support. Too much drama and I could support my child just fine.

Even now, god forbid Hubs and I split (knock on wood), I wouldn't ask for a damn thing. I know what's fair and I know what's right. Take care of our kids and make sure our children's lives are stable and good. He can have the rest. Things are just THINGS. In my life, I have seen how quickly a person can go from rich to poor. Money is nice when you have it, but I've never really had it and I've done just fine. 

So...no "entrapment" over here. I don't like drama. I avoid it like the plague. So a divorce with me would be very easy. Painful and depressing, but easy.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

InsecureSecurity said:


> Yeah, all those high profile women in positions of political power are definitely a testament to that. Oh wait...


But women put Barry, and all other politicians, in the driver's seat. Every election cycle is determined by who the Soccer Mom's, the Working Mom's, and the Slvt Mom's are going to vote for.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

BigLiam said:


> Yikes, what color is the sky in your world? Males have all the power? Been drafted recently? Made it off the Titanic?



You're going to use a sunken ship in the late 19th century as an example of women having the power?!!


and men dont get drafted in the US anymore and if there was a draft it's strictly because men don't want women on the battlefield, most women support having women in combat


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> BigLaim:
> 
> Why do you want to push off how you feel onto your kids? Let them decide for themselves if they want to marry or not. It's their life.


He's a father and it's a father's job to educate his sons about reality.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

the misogyny is hurting my eyes, time to leave this thread


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

I have contracted the local swat sniper team to if ever I am walking down the aisle again to take me out! Marriage is just a way for people to get together and allow them to take advantage of the other. I asked this the other day, I am 52, of my generation, not my folks, but mine. How many happily married couples do you know? Bet it is less than 10%. I was married for 30 years, raised three wonderful daughters, but what my xw did to me will never heal. I will never give anyone the chance to do that to me again. Do I think I will ever love again...I am beginning to think yes....but I will never think of "us" again over "me". too hard to relearn that.
Want to raise a family, think you might want to get married, insurance considerations only part of that. But my age, to remarry is pointless.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

InsecureSecurity said:


> So your reasons that men don't have power is the draft, which hasn't happened since Vietnam, and the Titanic sinking which happened 100 years ago? Interesting.


What makes you think men have more power? As Mach says, more women vote.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Machiavelli said:


> But women put Barry, and all other politicians, in the driver's seat. Every election cycle is determined by who the Soccer Mom's, the Working Mom's, and the Slvt Mom's are going to vote for.


So you mean WOMEN!? lolll

:rofl: I love my husband. When I read threads like this, I love him even more


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> BigLaim:
> 
> Why do you want to push off how you feel onto your kids? Let them decide for themselves if they want to marry or not. It's their life.


Well, my son asked me.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

that_girl said:


> ...
> 
> So...no "entrapment" over here. I don't like drama. I avoid it like the plague. So a divorce with me would be very easy. Painful and depressing, but easy.


You are an admirable woman. There are many, many like you. Unfortunately, many men have been deceived by women who were not like you. Also, unfortunately, these less than admirable women had the power of the state unleashed on their BHs. The point is, marriage is very dangerous for young men these days. If he makes a mistake he can be well and truly effed for life.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

"Slvt Mom's?"

Really? 

Ok this thread make sense now. :/


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

You can still say, "Well, that's your choice, son...but when you're grown, talk to me before you make any decisions." Or something like that.

Doesn't have to be so extreme. Just cause you got screwed over doesn't mean he will too. You should teach him how to find a good woman, instead of reasons to hate them.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> the misogyny is hurting my eyes, time to leave this thread


Oh, you poor , sensitive man, you. I am so sorry.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> You're going to use a sunken ship in the late 19th century as an example of women having the power?!!
> 
> 
> and men dont get drafted in the US anymore and if there was a draft it's strictly because men don't want women on the battlefield, most women support having women in combat


What was the ruck load back when you were in the infantry?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Machiavelli said:


> You are an admirable woman. There are many, many like you. Unfortunately, many men have been deceived by women who were not like you. Also, unfortunately, these less than admirable women had the power of the state unleashed on their BHs. The point is, marriage is very dangerous for young men these days. If he makes a mistake he can be well and truly effed for life.


Well, then teach children how to pick a good mate. Teach them how to BE a good mate. Teach them signs to look for and NOT ignore while dating.

I dunno. With my 12 year old daughter, I tell her about boys and men and things to be wary of. I don't, however, try to scare her away from men just because I have been royally effed over in the past. 

My mom didn't like men. That was apparent. THREE husbands screwed her over. Fine, that's her past. But her attitude about men affected me for a LONG time. I think that's wrong. I am NOT my mother. I wouldn't tolerate what my mother tolerated. So her experience has not been my experience.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> "Slvt Mom's?"
> 
> Really?
> 
> Ok this thread make sense now. :/


Remember, this is an infidelity forum. WWs vote, too. And WHs vote, but the numbers and the votes are always on the side of the women.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> "Slvt Mom's?"
> 
> Really?
> 
> Ok this thread make sense now. :/


I'm totally a slvt mom....for one man.

And my husband loves it


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Machiavelli said:


> You are an admirable woman. There are many, many like you. Unfortunately, many men have been deceived by women who were not like you. Also, unfortunately, these less than admirable women had the power of the state unleashed on their BHs. The point is, marriage is very dangerous for young men these days. If he makes a mistake he can be well and truly effed for life.


ugh why did I come back?


let's not forget about the multitudes of women who are trapped psychologically in marriages where they are abused, beaten, raped or watch their children get molested and many times the justice system has also failed these people


the fact is that many people are sh!tty and don't get served justice the way that they should
that is not exclusive to one gender, one race, one sexual preference, one religion, or one subset of age


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Well, then teach children how to pick a good mate. Teach them how to BE a good mate. Teach them signs to look for and NOT ignore while dating.


I agree, but do kids even date anymore? None of mine have and they're all 20+. Even the married one got with his wife in jr high and never dated anyone else.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

that_girl said:


> You can still say, "Well, that's your choice, son...but when you're grown, talk to me before you make any decisions." Or something like that.
> 
> Doesn't have to be so extreme. Just cause you got screwed over doesn't mean he will too. You should teach him how to find a good woman, instead of reasons to hate them.


I don't advise him to hate women. Just to not marry one. Men get screwed in divorce.
I inject 2600 a month, tax free into my XW's household, so she and her live in boyfriend(who was married when she hooked him) can live high on the hog. No way do the kids see a lot of that$$.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Machiavelli said:


> Remember, this is an infidelity forum. WWs vote, too. And WHs vote, but the numbers and the votes are always on the side of the women.


But men can still vote...right? So get more men to vote. I don't know what to tell you. Men and women are capable of getting to a poling booth to vote. I don't know why more women are. All I know is my husband and I both vote because it's our constitutional right...even if we hardly get our way LOL!


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

that_girl said:


> I'm totally a slvt mom....for one man.
> 
> And my husband loves it


Too much info for me:smthumbup:


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

that_girl said:


> I'm totally a slvt mom....for one man.
> 
> And my husband loves it


then your H is a lucky guy.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

BigLiam said:


> I don't advise him to hate women. Just to not marry one. Men get screwed in divorce.
> I inject 2600 a month, tax free into my XW's household, so she and her live in boyfriend(who was married when she hooked him) can live high on the hog. No way do the kids see a lot of that$$.


That is just garbage! My uncle, too, has to pay alimony to my aunt who was cheating and her BF (of 8 years now) is living in the house my uncle pays for.

INFURIATING!

But...she ignored things about my uncle (severe alcoholic) and he ignored things about my aunt (controlling from day one).

Your situation is disgusting. I'm sorry for the anger and frustration you must be feeling! I would be such a horrible person if that was my situation.

However, just teach your boy what NOT to get into. There are plenty of good women out there worthy of a good man...just gotta find one and NOT get married before 26. I'm firm on that with my kids. Preferably get married around 28. Have a career, your own place, and your own life. No one completes you but yourself.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

BigLiam said:


> Too much info for me:smthumbup:


Really? LOL that was rather tame.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

I love women. I enjoy their energy, how they look, how they smell, how they can banter, etc. etc.

But if my marriage ends, I'll never remarry. I'll enjoy their company as often as possible but like Hoosier, remarriage would make no sense at all.

And yeah, possible accusations of misogyny aside, I think young men, at least the responsible ones who sincerely want to do the right thing, are taking a huge risk by marrying. It may well be worth the gamble, but it may well not. I like poker and dog races, but I tend to place small bets. Not my house and retirement.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> ugh why did I come back?
> 
> 
> let's not forget about the multitudes of women who are trapped psychologically in marriages where they are abused, beaten, raped or watch their children get molested and many times the justice system has also failed these people
> ...


Yes, but we are talking about marriage, where men get screwed more(well, not really. If the Catholic Church is so insistent on celibacy, why aren't priests forced to marry.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

that_girl said:


> But men can still vote...right? So get more men to vote. I don't know what to tell you. Men and women are capable of getting to a poling booth to vote.


Women outnumber men from about age 13 onward. As soon as woman suffrage became law, men were automatically outvoted because there are more women.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Women outnumber men from about age 13 onward. As soon as woman suffrage became law, men were automatically outvoted because there are more women.


We are outnumbered. Head for the hills.(or, as Monty Python would say "run away, run away")

Really, though, with the incidence of infidelity so high, and, it appears, climbing, why would someone risk marriage?


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Being the father of two young women in committed relationships (one is married) I can tell you that women can ALSO get screwed by a cheating husband. If they have kids by such low life, they still have to deal with him for many years to come.

Personally? I would love to have each couple voluntarily submit themselves to being psychologically assessed to see if they have what it takes to be a good spouse. Though there's no guarantee that this would make for happy marriages (it takes work for that) it MAY create more healthier ones.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Well, you gotta nurture what you got and try to pick the best mate. 

When i look back on men I was serious about, I see the red flags i ignored and would have surely put us in a divorce. Things I thought "would get better" or "it's no big deal" just because I wanted someone in my life. Many people settle. Settling leads to resentment...which can spiral into divorce.

So I took a year off and just dated. For fun. I wanted to break that clingy cycle and that needy cycle and I did! Then I met Hubs after that year.  I was ready. Sure, we had our moments that we worked through last summer, but our mindset was 'for better or worse'. Divorce wasn't even an option. BUT...that's stuff I talked about with him before even getting married. I think many people don't talk about the "hard" stuff ebcause it's uncomfortable or they worry they'll scare the person away. If a person is scared away, then s/he isn't the right person for you. Thank them for running away and freeing you to get the right one.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

Who is this "Hubs" person and why would his parents give him such a strange name?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I agree wholeheartedly with the OP. I tell my kids the same thing now.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Hubs is my husband. His name is something else, although his initials are HAM 

We didn't want to get married. I never wanted to marry after the crap I went through and saw in my childhood home. Hubs never wanted to get married because his parents are insane!

We lived together, had a child, had papers drawn up for powers of attorney and living wills...we were basically married.

Then one day we just decided to do it. We had seen each other and how we dealt with money and sex and it was good (for almost 2 years before marriage). Our daughter was 7 months old and we decided to get married. 2 months later we were married.

I would never taint my child's mind about relationships though. I had that done to me, like i said, and I had to fight back against it. Let people learn for themselves. Just give them the tools to really know what they are doing.


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

I'm married to a wonderful woman so I can't relate to the OP, however I do understand the issue at hand which he speaks of.

It is important to realize however that marriage is not really the problem in society, it is the laws in place that do not take into consideration the true justifications and means for divorcing couples. Current laws generally protect women in a divorce no matter the circumstances of the divorce, even if the woman was misbehaving. It is really, truly unfair that marriage is recognized by state law but state law does not protect or penalize the appropriate individuals during separation, especially when evidence is provided. That is what deteriorates marriage in our society, because nothing is in place to actually preserve the concept of marriage in the first place. 

If a state is going to place laws on recognition and terminations of marriage, then there should be legal terms built into marriage vows as well rather than keeping vow-speak strictly as romantic with religious ties only. For example, the priest would say "Do you solemnly swear from this day forward to relinquish all of your marital assets if you cheat on your spouse, including custody of children and any properties purchased, etc.?"

But really, the tragedy here is people are thinking about deterring their kids from something so wonderful as marriage. We don't need marriage to go away people, we need state laws to change and become more responsible for protecting and punishing the appropriate parties... no matter what the gender.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

Yeah but a parent should warn kids of danger. And, marriage is a dangerous proposition.


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

Marriage isn't the danger, financial turmoil is... because again, lack of state laws to protect against it.

Marriage is wonderful. Laws are dangerous. Just be sure you are teaching the correct message and not tarnishing marriage of it's wonder.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I really do think the laws should include cheating. Adultery with another person should make alimony void.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

Let's refer to your husband as eith HAMHUBS or HUBS-HAM. Just seems more respectful.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Eh. That's ok!


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

BigLiam said:


> Yeah but a parent should warn kids of danger. And, marriage is a dangerous proposition.


It's not marriage that's dangerous... it's the people who don't respect it's meaning that are. That's how i see it anyway.. and thats what I plan on telling my kids when they are old enough to understand.


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

that_girl said:


> I really do think the laws should include cheating. Adultery with another person should make alimony void.


Completely agree. 

I bet if they started introducing juries and jury duty into divorce cases to make rulings based on evidence then things would become a lot more fair. Judges just don't want the headache and potential risk of taking assets away from a child-bearing mother. It's easier (and a safer career move) for them just to split have the sh!t down the middle and give the kids to the woman...


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

that_girl said:


> I really do think the laws should include cheating. Adultery with another person should make alimony void.


:iagree:


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

Isn't it strange: The marriage contract is the only one I can think of where one party can breach and there is no legal remedy. Yet, we seem to hold it up as being more sacred than a typical business contract.


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

It is more sacred than a business contract! That's my point about it being so wonderful. 

But yes, the problem is there is a business side to the contract as well, and that side of the deal is not being supported properly by law.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Most of the time, the red flags are right in front of our faces and we choose to ignore them. In my case, the fact that my ex-wife refused to discuss anything related to her growing up, should have told me right then and there that I should not have married her. But she being a very loving, giving and caring woman, I allowed my feelings to get the best of me and married her. Anybody who is secretive about their past, should be somebody you should run from. Secrecy has no place in a committed relationship like marriage.

Fortunately my divorce was uncontested and the division of marital assets did not hurt me like it has other folks hit by an unfaithful spouse. But even if it did, I knew before I married her that in a no fault divorce State, it doesn't matter what the cause of the divorce was and that everything that I brought into the marriage AFTER I got married was community property. So I can't fault the divorce laws considering I fully knew about them well before entering into the marriage. The way I see it, is that if you can't risk getting your nose bloodied - figuratively speaking of course - then you have no business getting into a committed relationship like marriage to begin with.


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## northland (Apr 13, 2012)

The Renegade said:


> Marriage is the greatest gift a man can give to a woman. In return he gets to have offspring, which is the greatest gift she makes to him (given the investments). It's kind of a genetic deal.
> If she gives him the kids and does not get married (committed to), she is screwed. If he gives her the marriage, but does not get offspring (sex), he's screwed.
> Looks clear to me and I believe it won't change any time soon.


Let's dispute your points one by one.

1- A man "gets" to have offspring even if he isn't married.

2- If she "gives him kids" (whatever that means), and they're not married, in most if not all states/countries, he's still responsible to support his children. Child support is payable whether or not there is marriage.

3- If he "gives her marriage" but doesn't have kids, he isn't necessarily "screwed", because having kids is an option. Many people are choosing not to have children nowadays and again that decision is independent of marriage.

Marriage is a financial contract, nothing more. It does not guarantee loyalty, honesty, or lack of deception. There is no greater chance that a married couple will be any more successful than a nonmarried couple. 

Most marriages fail nowadays.

Both parties are usually in worse shape after a divorce, the only winners are the attorneys.

Marriage is an archiaic, over rated, outdated concept that serves no real purpose. 

Generally speaking.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

BigLiam said:


> Isn't it strange: The marriage contract is the only one I can think of where one party can breach and there is no legal remedy. Yet, we seem to hold it up as being more sacred than a typical business contract.


:iagree:

You take vows, you sign papers, but if the vows are broken, nothing happens. Makes no sense.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

The divorce laws will only change when the marriage rates plummet so dangerously low, that the future of society is at stake. But until then, it is caveat emptor or "Let the buyer beware".


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Yes. You are right.

Which is why I push the idea in my home that marriage before 25 is no good.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

Machiavelli said:


> I agree, but do kids even date anymore? None of mine have and they're all 20+. Even the married one got with his wife in jr high and never dated anyone else.


Yes, my 18 year old found a boy who treats her like my husband treats me. Thats with the upmost respect.

I know I did a darn good job raising her to the best of my ability! She is motivated, driven and joining the military to serve our country. I couldn't be more proud. I hope her relationship lasts with this young man for life.

My FIL met my MIL at the age of 15. They married at 18 and now are in their 80's. They had a wonderful marriage without any problems. They taught my husband good life values and he utilizes what he was taught. My husband is a very good man. There are many more men who are respectful as he. I know of several within my family on both sides.

Having a negative outlook on life will only bring in negative experiences. I try my best to remain positive even though life has not been easy by any means.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

northland said:


> Marriage is a financial contract, nothing more.
> Most marriages fail nowadays.
> 
> Both parties are usually in worse shape after a divorce, the only winners are the attorneys.
> ...


These points I disagree with and I feel that BECAUSE of this thinking... people do not take marriage seriously so they say **** it i can do whatever the hell i want regardless... Which in turn leads to cheating, lies, deception, ect ect.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Yea, I push "dating" too. DATE PEOPLE! how do you know what you want if you don't know what's out there?! 

My friends in HS had one bf for the 4 years.  I dated a few...no sex...just dating. Learned a lot.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

northland said:


> It does not guarantee loyalty, honesty, or lack of deception. There is no greater chance that a married couple will be any more successful than a nonmarried couple.


I do agree with this point. I've been with my spouse for going on five years and we are NOT legally married, we have 2 kids and one on the way. We have had our ups and downs throughout the relationship but we have both made it through the hard times TOGETHER. To be legally married to me would be the icing on the cake. Why? because then if my spouse had to go to the hospital again for some odd reason.. and he had to stay for awhile .. I would be actually allowed to see him. They would actually GIVE me information as to how he is doing, ect and I resent the fact that without that license.. it seems like anything such as hospitals, ect do NOT respect someones relationship to another or think they are entitled to know things unless LEGALLY married.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Yea, I push "dating" too. DATE PEOPLE! how do you know what you want if you don't know what's out there?!
> 
> My friends in HS had one bf for the 4 years.  I dated a few...no sex...just dating. Learned a lot.


I've never had serious relationships with anyone from my HS... just never had that feeling for them. I know some people marry their HS sweetheart but I never had one of them lol.


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## northland (Apr 13, 2012)

Gaia said:


> To be legally married to me would be the icing on the cake. Why? because then if my spouse had to go to the hospital again for some odd reason.. and he had to stay for awhile .. I would be actually allowed to see him. They would actually GIVE me information as to how he is doing, ect and I resent the fact that without that license..


Ever consider (if this situation occurred) just telling the hospital you're his wife?

For all practical purposes you are.

I can't imagine you'd be asked for ID or a copy of your marriage license by hospital personnel.



Gaia said:


> These points I disagree with and I feel that BECAUSE of this thinking... people do not take marriage seriously so they say **** it i can do whatever the hell i want regardless... Which in turn leads to cheating, lies, deception, ect ect.


Most people do not take marriage seriously, which is why there is such a high rate of cheating and divorce. Which is why, marriage is nothing more than an over rated and outdated concept.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Gaia, there are durable power of attorney that the two of you can sign for healthcare and finances giving each other exclusive rights. You and your husband should look into them.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

northland said:


> Ever consider (if this situation occurred) just telling the hospital you're his wife?
> 
> For all practical purposes you are.
> 
> I can't imagine you'd be asked for ID or a copy of your marriage license by hospital personnel.


Done this... they did demand a copy of marriage license.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

morituri said:


> Gaia, there are durable power of attorney that the two of you can sign for healthcare and finances giving each other exclusive rights. You and your husband should look into them.


Never knew that.. :/ Thanks morituri.. will definately look into it.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

You're welcome Gaia.

Here's an article that talks in depth titled *Unmarried Partners, Medical Directives and the Durable Power of Attorney for Finances*. Good luck.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

I'm not soing to read this entire thread. But I agree.

If I had to do it over again...no marriage. One one partner changes the relationship becomes hell.


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## northland (Apr 13, 2012)

Gaia said:


> Done this... they did demand a copy of marriage license.


If it was me I'd Google search on marriage licenses, find a suitable image, download it and use a photo editor to replace the names. Run the finished product through a copy machine a few times to fade it out a bit and you're good to go.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

northland said:


> If it was me I'd Google search on marriage licenses, find a suitable image, download it and use a photo editor to replace the names. Run the finished product through a copy machine a few times to fade it out a bit and you're good to go.


Falsification of an official document. I doubt that anybody would care enough to prosecute in this case, but Mort's approach is better.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

northland said:


> If it was me I'd Google search on marriage licenses, find a suitable image, download it and use a photo editor to replace the names. Run the finished product through a copy machine a few times to fade it out a bit and you're good to go.


:lol::lol::lol: Well I'll keep that in my too!! lol


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

I can't read this entire thread, can someone tell me if this question was answered...

"what's the point?, why get married?"


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## Roma (Apr 18, 2012)

if it's just the financial aspects that worry you then why not encourage pre nups rather than avoiding marriage altogether....for me marriage is beautiful so i'm feeling baffled by all these negativity towards marriage


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## northland (Apr 13, 2012)

GTdad said:


> Falsification of an official document. I doubt that anybody would care enough to prosecute in this case, but Mort's approach is better.


No one would care. 

The hospital person would look at the paper and nod you right on through.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

northland said:


> No one would care.
> 
> The hospital person would look at the paper and nod you right on through.


Have you done this before? lol


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Roma said:


> if it's just the financial aspects that worry you then why not encourage pre nups rather than avoiding marriage altogether....for me marriage is beautiful so i'm feeling baffled by all these negativity towards marriage


Pre-nups are often invalidated and don't avoid the financial hit of a costly, contested divorce.

But I agree with you that marriage to a kind, loving, caring person is indeed a beautiful experience. The Holy Grail.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

northland said:


> Marriage is a financial contract, nothing more. It does not guarantee loyalty, honesty, or lack of deception. There is no greater chance that a married couple will be any more successful than a nonmarried couple.
> 
> Most marriages fail nowadays.


Not really. About 45% of first marriages fail. Much higher for subsequent marriages. You are correct that marriage is a contract. However, it's pretty much unenforceable.



northland said:


> Both parties are usually in worse shape after a divorce, the only winners are the attorneys.


Quite true, except you forgot WW's live in boyfriend who migrates around a few days with this women, a couple days with that one, etc. servicing his ad-hoc harem.



northland said:


> Marriage is an archiaic, over rated, outdated concept that serves no real purpose.


So it's being replaced by a situation where the top few alpha males maintain soft harems of divorced or adulterous women and the majority of men go without. Primal.

Generally speaking.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Gaia said:


> Done this... they did demand a copy of marriage license.


I haven't seen my marriage license since the day I got married. Do people actually keep those around?


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Machiavelli said:


> So it's being replaced by a situation where the top few alpha males maintain soft harems of divorced or adulterous women and the majority of men go without. Primal.


You forgot to count the adulterous married men, many of whom are serial cheaters. Even though slightly, they still outnumber their female counterparts.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> I haven't seen my marriage license since the day I got married. Do people actually keep those around?


lol by the way places like hospitals demand them...probably lol.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Machiavelli said:


> I haven't seen my marriage license since the day I got married. Do people actually keep those around?


If you're over 50 like me, its probably is scribed in papyrus leaves.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

morituri said:


> You forgot to count the adulterous married men, many of whom are serial cheaters. Even though slightly, they still outnumber their female counterparts.


An adulterous man should be grist for the mill. At the hands of the husband. That was the old rule, and it's still the best one. I have no illusions about that coming to pass any time soon. Yeah, I'm from the 16th century.


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## northland (Apr 13, 2012)

Gaia said:


> Have you done this before? lol


I'd never admit to it on a public forum but you can use your imagination. If I did it wasn't in regards to gaining admission to a hospital but there are many reasons why a person might want need some sort of official document in order to obtain a specific goal and in many cases the person who will look at it only cares about covering their butt and they won't look into it in any detail.



Machiavelli said:


> Not really. About 45% of first marriages fail. Much higher for subsequent marriages.


Statistics I've read put the number of first marriages ending in divorce at well over the 50% mark. I think the first marriage divorce rate is closer to 60% but either way its easily MORE than HALF. Not such good odds. And many of the "intact" marriages are that way only "for the kids" or due to finances or convenience, not because the two parties want to be together. 



Machiavelli said:


> So it's being replaced by a situation where the top few alpha males maintain soft harems of divorced or adulterous women and the majority of men go without. Primal.


Not sure about a few top dogs getting all the cheating women, but at any rate, cheating happens regardless of whether or not there's marriage. A marriage license doesn't give some sort of protection against it. It just makes it much more difficult to extricate oneself from the situation.


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## Simon Phoenix (Aug 9, 2010)

I would agree with the majority here in terms of marrirage. The concept is not as bad as the laws that essentially rewards bad behavior. I would strongly encourage anyone not to marry until after 25 or at least when they have their own financial, emotional, and spiritual houses in enough order to discern being in love from being in lust. There's a reason why marriages that occur with folks under 25 fail at an 80% clip. And as for those whose parents and grandparents married and are still together, please understand that they got together in a different time; a time when premarital sex and living together was shunned upon and free online porn, Adult Friend Finder, Facebook, Yahoo Personals, and Myspace didn't exist. There are way more options to choose from now than it was in 1956.

As for me, I'd never, EVER marry again. After getting your hand burned once by putting it on the stove, it would take divine intervention for me to put the other mitt back up there...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Simon Phoenix said:


> As for me, I'd never, EVER marry again. After getting your hand burned once by putting it on the stove, it would take divine intervention for me to put the other mitt back up there...


I also got burned but it was because I chose to ignore a huge red flag before I married her. Ask yourself if whether there were ANY red flags before you married her.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

morituri said:


> I also got burned but it was because I chose to ignore a huge red flag before I married her. Ask yourself if whether there were ANY red flags before you married her.


Spotting red flags is a lot easier in hindsight..


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

morituri said:


> I also got burned but it was because I chose to ignore a huge red flag before I married her.


Do you have a link to your story?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Gaia said:


> I do agree with this point. I've been with my spouse for going on five years and we are NOT legally married, we have 2 kids and one on the way. We have had our ups and downs throughout the relationship but we have both made it through the hard times TOGETHER. To be legally married to me would be the icing on the cake. Why? because then if my spouse had to go to the hospital again for some odd reason.. and he had to stay for awhile .. I would be actually allowed to see him. They would actually GIVE me information as to how he is doing, ect and I resent the fact that without that license.. it seems like anything such as hospitals, ect do NOT respect someones relationship to another or think they are entitled to know things unless LEGALLY married.


You can do this without being married. Get some "Power of attorney" papers for medical drawn up and notarized. We did that and it worked great (before marriage).

Write it up now that if there is ever an accident, etc, that you are BOTH to be able to visit and be treated like a spouse. Have it legalized.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

snap said:


> Spotting red flags is a lot easier in hindsight..


Not really. I knew them then but chose to ignore them. Thought the people would "change in time". LOL not.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Not really. About 45% of first marriages fail. Much higher for subsequent marriages. You are correct that marriage is a contract. However, it's pretty much unenforceable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What about a really well hung beta? Does he get a harem, too?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

morituri said:


> I also got burned but it was because I chose to ignore a huge red flag before I married her. Ask yourself if whether there were ANY red flags before you married her.


What was the red flag?



snap said:


> Spotting red flags is a lot easier in hindsight..


Oh I sooo agree


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Simon Phoenix said:


> There's a reason why marriages that occur with folks under 25 fail at an 80% clip.


That statistic is BS.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

BigLiam said:


> What about a really well hung beta? Does he get a harem, too?


Not necessarily. Remember Priapus.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Not necessarily. Remember Priapus.


So, how do betas get sex partners? Say you are an incredibly handsome, athletic, well hung beta who makes a ton of $$. Are you saying women would chose an alpha?


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

So yeah, considering this thread and the older one about "Why do men marry?"

The consensus pretty much is there isn`t a good objective reason to marry.
Bear in mind this is the consensus of a pro-marriage forum.

Kinda makes ya wonder.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

BigLiam said:


> So, how do betas get sex partners? Say you are an incredibly handsome, athletic, well hung beta who makes a ton of $$. Are you saying women would chose an alpha?


Yes, as a lover while remaining married to the beta bread winner.
Women don`t dig doormats for long.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

tacoma said:


> Yes, as a lover while remaining married to the beta bread winner.
> Women don`t dig doormats for long.


So, betas should not marry. Then, they can have lots of partners on a short term basis. Another argument for never marrying.


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

That's ridiculous. The same ideology applies to Alphas for that matter. Marriage is a long term commitment and neither all-betas nor all-alphas make a good long term partner. One needs a balance both for longevity.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

Bottled Up said:


> That's ridiculous. The same ideology applies to Alphas for that matter. Marriage is a long term commitment and neither all-betas nor all-alphas make a good long term partner. One needs a balance both for longevity.


Are you saying that alphas and betas have the ability to adopt some of each others traits? How can that be? Aren't we either one or the other for life? Isn't it hardwired?
Now, you have me thinking: What if i took this incredibly toned,muscled body, coupled with classic good looks and high earnings and huge endowment, and started injecting some alpha behaviors? Hmmm.... Hot damn, I may have created a monster. Thanks:smthumbup: Marriage here I come


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Bottled Up said:


> That's ridiculous. The same ideology applies to Alphas for that matter. Marriage is a long term commitment and neither all-betas nor all-alphas make a good long term partner. One needs a balance both for longevity.


Exactly!


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

BigLiam said:


> Are you saying that alphas and betas have the ability to adopt some of each others traits? How can that be? Aren't we either one or the other for life? Isn't it hardwired?
> Now, you have me thinking: What if i took this incredibly toned,muscled body, coupled with classic good looks and high earnings and huge endowment, and started injecting some alpha behaviors? Hmmm.... Hot damn, I may have created a monster. Thanks:smthumbup: Marriage here I come


You should read this Liam...

Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.

It`s all about the balance of alpha/Beta in a man to give him the best shot at a long happy relationship.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

tacoma said:


> Exactly!


Any ideas on the exact ratio of traits needed for optimum success?


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

BigLiam said:


> Any ideas on the exact ratio of traits needed for optimum success?


Depends on the man & woman in question.

It`s a try it until it works kind of deal.

Check that website & blog I posted above.
The balance of Alpha/Beta is it`s entire purpose.

The author is a semi-regular on this board and while I don`t agree with him entirely the foundation of his book is on the money.


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

BigLiam said:


> Any ideas on the exact ratio of traits needed for optimum success?


Ok comedian... If you pour 25.36 grams of Alpha into a glass of "bite me" and then chug...


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## shazam (Nov 7, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> the misogyny is hurting my eyes, time to leave this thread


Didn't your wife cheat on you?


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

I'll check it out. My only worry is that upon first glance,anyway, I am so much more muscular and athletic than the author, that I may have to tone down the alpha traits just a bit to achieve a decent balance. These genetics are a blessing and a curse.


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## courseplotter (May 8, 2012)

I'll throw my hat into this ring (sorry I'm a few hours late to the party).

I think it's pretty obnoxious that some people in this thread are responding as if the original poster is talking down about women. He's not. The commentary, though somewhat indirectly, was addressing the reasons behind why it is so unwise for a man to get married in our country's current moral and judicial climate.

I agree with some posters that marriage is one of the greatest relationships a person can experience.

Pragmatically, you're playing russian roulette with your finances. Once a man gets vested with x many years of marriage, he's on the hook for alimony. And forget getting custody of your kids unless the woman is entirely incompetent.

The courts don't seem to care about fault and they tend to side with women for no real reason. This is more of the norm than not.

Because even a man's best assessment of a woman's character may be wrong, it takes a tremendous leap of faith for a well-meaning man to trust a woman to honor marriage these days... thanks again to our moral climate and the power women unfairly wield in court.

Therefore, conservatively, it's unwise for a man of any age to marry these days.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

Bottled Up said:


> Ok comedian... If you pour 25.36 grams of Alpha into a glass of "bite me" and then chug...


From Ct, eh? Spent a lot of time playing hoops in Bridgeport.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

In HS my bus driver was a big, buff guy. He was also a very effeminate homosexual. Muscles don't mean alpha. lol.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

BigLiam said:


> I'll check it out. My only worry is that upon first glance,anyway, I am so much more muscular and athletic than the author, that I may have to tone down the alpha traits just a bit to achieve a decent balance. These genetics are a blessing and a curse.



First you`ll have to redefine what you think of as alpha and beta.

I`m not a muscular guy and I am and always have been an alpha personality.

Juicer (A new poster here) is a large intimidating bodybuilder .
I`d wager an uneducated diagnosis that he`s waaay heavy on the beta.

It`s a mentality not a physicality.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

that_girl said:


> In HS my bus driver was a big, buff guy. He was also a very effeminate homosexual. Muscles don't mean alpha. lol.


Well, now I am really confused. (buff, but confused).

Dear Mr Atlas:

I have completed your course. Please send my muscles.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

that_girl said:


> In HS my bus driver was a big, buff guy. He was also a very effeminate homosexual. Muscles don't mean alpha. lol.


TWWWWIST, So should gay men not marry either???


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

tacoma said:


> First you`ll have to redefine what you think of as alpha and beta.
> 
> I`m not a muscular guy and I am and always have been an alpha personality.
> 
> ...


Okay, seriously, I will check out his site.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I was confused at the time too. 14 years old and never knew gay men could look like loggers and sashay.

Awesome learning experience. :rofl: He was cool. Played our radio station and let us eat breakfast on the bus.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Amplexor said:


> TWWWWIST, So should gay men not marry either???


:rofl: Are you doing the twist?

Gay men and women should be able to marry...but that's not this thread lol.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

that_girl said:


> I was confused at the time too. 14 years old and never knew gay men could look like loggers and sashay.


Not a Python fan, huh?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

tacoma said:


> First you`ll have to redefine what you think of as alpha and beta.
> 
> I`m not a muscular guy and I am and always have been an alpha personality.
> 
> ...


My husband is alpha...and he's slight.

It's not how you look


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

that_girl said:


> I was confused at the time too. 14 years old and never knew gay men could look like loggers and sashay.
> 
> Awesome learning experience. :rofl: He was cool. Played our radio station and let us eat breakfast on the bus.


I've seen some gay women who could log.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Amplexor said:


> Not a Python fan, huh?


I saw "The Life of Brian" when I was piss drunk.

But that's it. I SHOULD watch more. I do love that humor.


----------



## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

BigLiam said:


> I've seen some gay women who could log.


:lol: If you're a logger, you're probably buff.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

Amplexor said:


> Not a Python fan, huh?


What is this, the Spanish Inquisition?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I fart in your general die-rection.

That's all I remember...and I use it often.


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

lol nothing has changed the world has always been like this you just do to technology hear of it more.

the world is not a loving sweet happy place most are corrupted. 

You can find good people


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

keko said:


> Do you have a link to your story?


My story is like the giant with diarrhea, it's all over the place.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> What was the red flag?


Here you go señorita Jellybeans http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...-ever-marry-just-my-opinion-7.html#post753715.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

morituri said:


> The divorce laws will only change when the marriage rates plummet so dangerously low, that the future of society is at stake.


Looking around me today I believe a major change in society in general would actually be a good thing.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

BigLiam said:


> So, how do betas get sex partners? Say you are an incredibly handsome, athletic, well hung beta who makes a ton of $$. Are you saying women would chose an alpha?


Normally what you describe would be the AOG anywhere, since those attributes are going to put that person at the top of the social pyramid. Think of the good looking guy who quarterbacks the high school team and is homecoming king and queen with his girlfriend the head cheerleader. He's going to be surrounded with sycophant males waiting for his cast offs and girls trying to give him bjs behind his girl's back. That's pretty much alpha defined: the socially dominant male of the group.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Unhappy2011 said:


> Most people are alphas to somebody and betas to somebody else.
> 
> Very few are total betas or alphas all the time, in every realm and facet of their life.


In the context of sexual behavior, there are very few alphas. Vox Day has a much better handle on the greek alphabet of masculine attraction in LTR than the PUA crowd (although their usage serves their purposes).


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

This reminds me of the guy who donated his kidney to save his wife's life then he finds out she's been cheating on him after she got better. Sheesh

NY Man Wants Donated Kidney Back in Divorce Settlement - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

No good deed should go unpunished.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

shazam said:


> Didn't your wife cheat on you?


yes, and your point being that I should hate all women based on the actions of one?


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Those of us who are in R obviously don't hate their spouses. I'd wager many (most?) of people who D cheaters don't hate them either, but in the case of reconciliation hatred would make it impossible undertaking.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Normally what you describe would be the AOG anywhere, since those attributes are going to put that person at the top of the social pyramid. Think of the good looking guy who quarterbacks the high school team and is homecoming king and queen with his girlfriend the head cheerleader. He's going to be surrounded with sycophant males waiting for his cast offs and girls trying to give him bjs behind his girl's back. That's pretty much alpha defined: the socially dominant male of the group.


Yes, but what if your personality traits are beta, despite having really good genetics for the physical stuff and earnings etc?
I'm not kidding. I lettered 3 times in 3 sports in college. Finished near the top of my law school. Could dunk into my mid forties at 6'1' etc.
But, I am fairly mild mannered and did not date a lot.


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## domah (May 18, 2012)

Why men should never get married: (or why marriage is obsolete in the 21st Century)

1. As a young man, you're on your own. Society divides and conquers. Unlike women who have advocates looking out for them (NOW, Women's Study Departments, government, non-profit organizations, political advocacy groups) almost no one is looking out for you.

2. Don't believe the crap about the patriarchy. More women are accepted and attend college. More degrees are awarded to women than men. Women outlive men. More men commit suicide. Men are twice as likely to be victims of violence, including murder. If you consider sexual assaults in prisons, twice as many men are raped as women (society thinks prison rape is funny). The streets are littered with homeless men, sprinkled with a few homeless women. Statically, women are happier than men. The myth that girls are being cheated by are educational system is belied by the fact that schools are bastions of femininity, mostly run by and taught by women. Girls outperform boys in school. It is the boys in school getting ****ed over, and prescribed ritalin for being boys. Real wages for men are falling, while real wages for women are rising. Just because someone says something enough times, doesn't make it true. You have nothing to feel guilty about.

3. Society will try and make you feel guilty for wanting sex. From grade school forward, we are told that men think about sex 3000 times a day. There is a widespread believe that men cheat on their girlfriends/spouses more than women do. The fact is, women cheat just as much as men do, they are just better at not getting caught. Recent studies using college students prove that throughout the day, men think about food more than sex, and women think about sex almost as much as men do. 

4. Divorce rates are above 50% in most states. No couple goes into a marriage thinking "hey, we are going to get divorced", yet over 50% of them end up getting divorced. As a man, you are at a distinct disadvantage in Family Courts across America. Judges for the most part award custody of children to the women, and by and large, alimony payments are being paid by men and are being received by women.

5. In divorce and separation the law has absolutely no tolerance for male anger, threats, or withholding of support. The law does very little to hinder typical female parental alienation, or withholding of access.

6. For women a comfortable lifestyle means money. For men it means sex, a well cared for home, and a good meal. After divorce women have the right to the financial support of their husbands so they don’t suffer a decrease in lifestyle. Men have no comparable guarantee.

7. After divorce women can use alimony to go back to school and pursue their dreams. After divorce men are prohibited from going back to school and pursuing their dreams unless going to school doesn’t reduce alimony payments.

8. After some years of marriage, a woman will have to be supported for the rest of her life if she bails on the marriage.

9. Marriage is the only modern day legal equivalent of a 'debtors prison'. As a man, if you fail to make alimony or child support payments (even if you do not have the financial means to do so), you can be thrown in jail. There is no other legal contract that could force a person into jail for the inability to pay his debts, other than marriage.

10. Marriage is the only legal contract where one party can unilaterally breach the contract and at the same time receive financial compensation (alimony) for not living up to their part of the contract. In any area of law (other than marriage/family law), the penalty would be assessed to the party breaking the contract.

10. Children: It is a myth that you have to be married to have children. 

11. Marriage today (some call it Marriage 2.0) is not what it was throughout history and up until 50 (or even 25) years ago (Marriage 1.0). The legal definition of marriage has been altered and changed so significantly from just two decades ago, that it shouldn't even be called marriage anymore. Today's marriage is a one-sided contract conferring significant advantage to one party, and allowing one party to unilaterally breach the contract and make out like a bandit. In no other area of contract law would such a contract stand up to legal scrutiny, but in Family court, this is the norm.

12. Paternity laws in almost every state have a 'conclusive' presumption of paternity, and will screw you over if you are married. As a married man, if your wife has an affair and gives birth to a child that is not yours, you have a short period of time (from the birth of the child) to file for a paternity test and file a legal claim the child is not yours. If you fail to do this within this short period of time after the child's birth (even if you didn't know the child was not yours, or your wife duped you into believing it was yours), you are still responsible for the financial welfare of that child until he/she becomes an adult. In some states, its even worse, as there is no time period where you could disclaim the child, if a woman is married at the time she gives birth, the legal husband is considered the father in the eyes of the law, regardless of whether the child is his or not. The man with whom your wife had the affair with has no financial responsibility for his own child, because he was smart enough not to be married to her. As screwed up as that sounds, if your wife ever then divorces you, you will be required to pay child support for a child that is not yours. It is estimated that there are over 1.6 million men paying child-support for a child that is not biologically theirs, many men finding out months or years later, that the child was not theirs and having no legal recourse. It has long been thought that about 10% of children born in marriages do not belong to the husband, but recent major studies carried out at blood banks show that number to be closer to 30%. (1.6M Men Pay Child Support For Kids That Aren't Theirs (DNA))

13. Roughly 12% of men who refuse to pay child support do so because they are not the father. (There are many more who pay, even though they are not the father of the child, because these men do not want to deal with the penalties of not paying). Yet when a man doesn't pay support for a child that he has proven is not his progeny, under current law and practice, he is labeled a "Deadbeat Dad," and his drivers and other professional licenses are taken away (making it almost impossible for him to work), and then he is thrown in jail for contempt of court. That often occurs without a hearing and certainly without a jury trial. A man can get out of prison for murder based on DNA evidence but can't get out of child support payments or jail based on the same conclusive evidence. If these men never got married in the first place, many of them wouldn't be in jail or punished.

14. The myth that these laws apply to both men and women equally is just that.. a myth. Men overwhelmingly pay alimony in divorce settlements, and women overwhelmingly receive alimony. In 2006, only 2.4% of the recipients of alimony were men.

15. Saving Taxes: In most cases, you will pay more in taxes rather than less by being married. Especially if both spouses work.

16. And finally, don't hate women. It's a waste of time. You should treat them nicely and respect them. Just never marry.


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## Trojan John (Sep 30, 2011)

Brilliant post.

I'm happily married but if I ever divorced, I would never get marrIed again. Unless it were to Monica Bellucci.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

And, I do not think any of this aversion to marriage is born out of misogyny. As the above poster pints out, the family court pendulum has swung so far in favor of women, that a man must be crazy to get married.
Ever wonder why female sexual predators do less prison time? Or, why there are so few shelters for battered men, when studies show they are abuse at least as much as women? Why is there a specific violence against women act, but not one for men?


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Trojan John said:


> Brilliant post.
> 
> I'm happily married but if I ever divorced, I would never get marrIed again. Unless it were to Monica Bellucci.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mmmmm.... Monica Bellucci. I would break my no marriage pledge for her. (I still have that Esquire where she's wearing nothing but caviar on the cover.)


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Trojan John said:


> Brilliant post.
> 
> I'm happily married but if I ever divorced, I would never get marrIed again. Unless it were to Monica Bellucci.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ooohhhhh Yeaaahhh......










....strong incentive for remarriage.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

BigLiam said:


> Ever wonder why female sexual predators do less prison time? Or, why there are so few shelters for battered men, when studies show they are abuse at least as much as women? Why is there a specific violence against women act, but not one for men?


Men are on average more violent and are more capable of inflicting physical damage than women.


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## domah (May 18, 2012)

Women often talk about men's 'fear of commitment'; however, the facts paint a different picture with 75% of divorces now being filed by women. 

Any intelligent, rational man would come to the same conclusion and not subject himself to the very significant risk of lifetime alimony, paternity fraud, one-sided alimony, non-enforcement of visitation rights and loss of custody.

In my opinion, this is a shame, as many respectable and intelligent men would like to marry; however, the risks and costs of divorce far out weight any benefit of marriage for men. I mean by a huge margin.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

snap said:


> Men are on average more violent and are more capable of inflicting physical damage than women.
> 
> This is absolute fiction


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

BigLiam said:


> Yes, but what if your personality traits are beta, despite having really good genetics for the physical stuff and earnings etc?
> I'm not kidding. I lettered 3 times in 3 sports in college. Finished near the top of my law school. Could dunk into my mid forties at 6'1' etc.
> But, I am fairly mild mannered and did not date a lot.


Do you get hit on frequently by women? How about back in school?


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## Juicer (May 2, 2012)

So, I just happened to stumble on this page after planning on divorcing my cheating wife, and telling her. 

Now, I have talked to several divorce lawyers. And here is what they have told me about my situation:
I have a prenup. It was suppose to protect me, my house, and 3 businesses I owned before I married, and any inheritance I would receive (and did) from dead parents/grand parents, and it did the same liberties for the wife, pretty much making sure neither of us got vindictive in divorce.
It also, had a clause in it, saying that if the primary money earner is to cheat, they will have to pay alimony to the other spouse. If the spouse that earned less cheated, no alimony what so ever. But it is in much fancier and legal language, And I am of course, the primary earner. And of course, the wife cheated. 

So, here is what the lawyers told me:
Wife can't go after my inheritance, or my income conventionally. But the judge that decides a lot of the cases in my area has thrown out a lot of prenups. 
But luckily, because of where I live, assets acquired before the marriage are returned to the original owner. So I shouldn't worry too much, right? WRONG! 

The BUT comes at spousal support. Lawyers told me, I will probably be expected to pay her so she can continue to 'live the life style she grew accustomed to,' while married to me. And that could even include to the point of either letting her stay in my house, or possibly having to find her an apartment to live in, and paying her a lot of money. 
So she can't go after the business. But she can go after the next best thing: the money they make. Claiming she grew accustomed to the life style that my huge income gave her. 
I grew accustomed to the life style of her giving me sex 5x, and a nice cooked meal 4x a week. Do I get any conditions on that? of course not. 

So, I got married and my wife cheated on me. The reward for her cheating on me, is to get to pay her potentially 10%-40% of my income, before my taxes, and maybe find a new place for her to live. At least there are no children involved here. 

So, how would I describe marriage?
Take your financial security, (maybe some paper stocks, or a CD with $200,000 for your retirement, or heck, even just a key to a simple bank box) a 6-chamber revolver, and load half the chambers, give it a spin, then see if it shoots. 

And girls wonder why men don't want to marry...


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

BigLiam said:


> This is absolute fiction


I don't know where you live, but when I was in places where I could get in trouble, it's only men who were of any concern.

How many are getting mugged by women? Stabbed in the bar brawls? Raped? (and yes, same-sex prison rape is also inflicted by men)

Not that any of that doesn't happen, but it's very uncommon.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Juicer,

You should delete that post as your wife posts on these boards and this is info she shouldn't have access to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

Edited for stupidity.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Tacoma, good point. I deleted Juicer's quote. (You might want to do the same.)


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Speaking of never getting married, I see where the Facebook dude got married yesterday. He's worth what, $19B, and he's tying the knot? I saw a picture of him and his bride. Cute couple. I hope he's got an iron-clad prenup.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Speaking of never getting married, I see where the Facebook dude got married yesterday. He's worth what, $19B, and he's tying the knot? I saw a picture of him and his bride. Cute couple. I hope he's got an iron-clad prenup.


They started dating before he conceived Facebook.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Do you get hit on frequently by women? How about back in school?


Yes, it was unbelievable. This is where I learned women need no emotional connection for sex.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Tacoma, good point. I deleted Juicer's quote. (You might want to do the same.)


Gaaaa!!

I`m an idiot.

Thanks for pointing it out to me.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

snap said:


> I don't know where you live, but when I was in places where I could get in trouble, it's only men who were of any concern.
> 
> How many are getting mugged by women? Stabbed in the bar brawls? Raped? (and yes, same-sex prison rape is also inflicted by men)
> 
> Not that any of that doesn't happen, but it's very uncommon.


The studies I read indicate the violence against men by women may be even more frequent. 
And, what about the disparity in sentencing for crimes, including peophiles.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

When we got married, we each had NOTHING.

Well, I had a couch and he had a TV. :rofl:


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

BigLiam said:


> Yes, it was unbelievable. This is where I learned women need no emotional connection for sex.


If you are able to get sex daily from women by merely saying yes, you're either an alpha or a sigma. For a definition of these terms as they pertain to relationship "game," see Vox Day's Alpha game plan.

If you're not really social, you'd be a sigma; if you are looked up to and assume leadership among willing subordinate males, you'd be an alpha.

Now the PUA gamers, as opposed to relationship gamers (think Athol), define an alpha as any guy who get laid frequently. They define all the frustrated chumps (married or not) as beta.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

So, I was an alpha strictly based on my appearance, athleticism, and academic achievements? Even if I was fairly non-aggressive as regards approaching women?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Women are not so swayed as you may think. After my daughter's father (he was my 2nd) and I split up, I had a sexual awakening and I was an alpha female  Sex was just fun and I had really no ties to the guys I slept with (not many, but enough). They were nice guys, but I learned to detach from the idea that love=sex. I had been having sex with a man (my ex) who treated me like crap. that wasn't love!

So...sometimes the woman has decided she is just going to have sex. For fun. Yes, it is possible.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

that_girl said:


> So...sometimes the woman has decided she is just going to have sex. For fun. Yes, it is possible.


:iagree:

Does anyone really believe the opposite? Women can be very sexually aggressive creatures with no emotion involved, just like men.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

BigLiam said:


> So, I was an alpha strictly based on my appearance, athleticism, and academic achievements? Even if I was fairly non-aggressive as regards approaching women?


In the context of mating, women decide who is alpha/sigma and who is beta/gamma. If the commandant of the Marine Corps doesn't have women trying to have sex with him, he is not alpha.

I used to play in a band when I was young. I'd take a break and women would sit on my lap. When I was out as an individual and not a wannabe rock star, women would come up behind me and rub my chest, shoulders, and biceps. Later on, at Christmas parties, women would french kiss me under the mistletoe (in front of my wife) before I even knew I had walked under the mistletoe. 

I never approached a woman in my life.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Does anyone really believe the opposite? Women can be very sexually aggressive creatures with no emotion involved, just like men.


TONS of people don't believe it.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

Agreed.It was not unsuual for a female to come to my dorm and ask for sex. Many of them I did not even know.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

that_girl said:


> TONS of people don't believe it.


HE HAW!!!!

if they don't believe it!


were just animals and when animals get horney the will try everything to get a peice!


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> In the context of mating, women decide who is alpha/sigma and who is beta/gamma. If the commandant of the Marine Corps doesn't have women trying to have sex with him, he is not alpha.
> 
> I used to play in a band when I was young. I'd take a break and women would sit on my lap. When I was out as an individual and not a wannabe rock star, women would come up behind me and rub my chest, shoulders, and biceps. Later on, at Christmas parties, women would french kiss me under the mistletoe (in front of my wife) before I even knew I had walked under the mistletoe.
> 
> I never approached a woman in my life.


Yes, me too. Every girlfriend I had initiated contact.

I'd get notes slipped under my dorm room door asking to have sex.

So, why is it we are led to believe they need emotional connection?


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

that_girl said:


> TONS of people don't believe it.


How many wives, if given the green light by their husbands, would jump at the chance to have sex with a man they are sexually attracted to? I would venture to say that quite a good eye opening number.

The nature of female sexuality can be just as scary to many women as it is to many men.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

BigLiam said:


> The studies I read indicate the violence against men by women may be even more frequent.


I'm sure if we count all face slaps and fist-poking in domestic aggression it can well be true, but it's all pretty low severity. Most men can easily overpower most women, very few mens' lives are ever endangered by aggression from females.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

BigLiam said:


> Yes, me too. Every girlfriend I had initiated contact.
> 
> I'd get notes slipped under my dorm room door asking to have sex.
> 
> So, why is it we are led to believe they need emotional connection?


Because once they have that emotional connection with a man everything is much better including sex.

Once they lose that emotional connection with a man they want it back so that everything can be better again.

Women have no need for an emotional connection to enjoy sex just as much as a man
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

snap said:


> I'm sure if we count all face slaps and fist-poking in domestic aggression it can well be true, but it's all pretty low severity. Most men can easily overpower most women, very few mens' lives are ever endangered by aggression from females.


Says the person whose GF never rushed them with a kitchen knife or tequila bottle.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

morituri said:


> How many wives, if given the green light by their husbands, would jump at the chance to have sex with a man they are sexually attracted to? I would venture to say that quite a good eye opening number.
> 
> The nature of female sexuality can be just as scary to many women as it is to many men.


This why it makes no sense to commit to being monogamous, as it is unlikely, statistically, tht your partner will be.
Why deprive yourself when your partner is partaking.
This is why response affairs make sense to me. Nosense going through life derpiving yourself.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

BigLiam said:


> This why it makes no sense to commit to being monogamous, as it is unlikely, statistically, tht your partner will be.
> Why deprive yourself when your partner is partaking.
> This is why response affairs make sense to me. Nosense going through life derpiving yourself.


So if I read you correctly, you believe that since the cheating spouse has already turned the marriage into an "open marriage" that the faithful spouse should find another to have an affair with? Interesting but you seem to forget that when an affair is discovered, the last thing on the betrayed spouse's mind is to go have an affair of his/her own. Besides, even those cases where that happens, the chances of a possible reconciliation drop significantly that it would have been just better to have simply leave and file for divorce. At least that way the betrayed can stop wasting time, move on with his/her life and give him/herself the opportunity to be in another committed relationship in the future, instead of entering into a dead-end relationship and engaging in stressful cloak-and-dagger behavior.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Revenge affairs almost kill any chance at R.

I`m an ******* and even I wouldn`t have one


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

This entire thread is a wonderful reminder to thank God if you have an incredible marriage. It's a stern cautionary tale...


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## Juicer (May 2, 2012)

So, to make sure I have this correct:

On this pro-marriage site, the users are having trouble to give a good reason, for a young male, hell, a male at any age, to marry, because he is in effect, playing Russian Roulette with his heart and property?


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Correct. There is no rational reason.

Too bad we people are not rational.. otherwise the whole concept of Russian Roulette would've not existed


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## megaman2 (May 20, 2012)

i think its a one time deal. i dont think i would ever marry anyone again. im only seperated, but divorce can be a hurtful proccess for you and your spouse as well as your kids


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Yes, if my R falls through, I'd consider my social and paternal duty fulfilled, and live comfortable life of a bachelor.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Juicer said:


> So, to make sure I have this correct:
> 
> On this pro-marriage site, the users are having trouble to give a good reason, for a young male, hell, a male at any age, to marry, because he is in effect, playing Russian Roulette with his heart and property?


This website attracts a lot of the jaded, scorned, and cynical, people who are hurting, or have been hurt, by the scars of bad marriages and bad choices. It isn't a remotely unbiased look at marriage.

Having said that, look around. There are a lot of people here, myself included, who absolutely _love _being married, or in long term relationships.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I love being Married too but if your argument is that love is rational you're in trouble

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

tacoma said:


> I love being Married too but if your argument is that love is rational you're in trouble
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's not.

Thankfully, however, none of my favorite things are bound by rationality. :rofl:


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## Married in VA (Jan 6, 2012)

I agree with the OP personally but would not tell it to my children. They will make their own decisions. Marriage 2.0 is a sham institution. It is no different legally than an LLC or business partnership. One partner may bust their butt and build the success of the business(working husband or wife) while the other partner is more passive (non-working homemaking spouse). In the name of love the working spouse keeps building the family coffers while the non-working spouse is having an affair. No fault states don't care why you are in court and only want to see the LLC dissolved equitably. So as the working spouse, your hard work is carved up and divided while your non-working, cheating partner gets paid for their bad behavior. The working spouse is victimized twice, once by their spouse, and again by the legal system. Yes, not worth getting married in this environment when as a monied spouse you are just an ATM for your former spouse to cash in on until some guy/gal in a black robe says stop. My .02$


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

BigLiam said:


> Agreed.It was not unsuual for a female to come to my dorm and ask for sex. Many of them I did not even know.


Then you are/were either Alpha or Sigma, depending on what set of nomenclature you're using. Notice I said "are/were." I went through a 12 year period of being a porker and that attention went away completely. _I became invisible to women_ when I got outside the "golden ratio" and the bespectacled, fat face and white hair didn't help. Once I dropped fat and rebuilt muscle and went back to wearing contacts, the attention resumed. If I were to start up playing music again, my wife probably would go into hyperdrive.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

snap said:


> They started dating before he conceived Facebook.


I started dating my ex before I made a dime.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

BigLiam said:


> Yes, me too. Every girlfriend I had initiated contact.
> 
> I'd get notes slipped under my dorm room door asking to have sex.
> 
> So, why is it we are led to believe they need emotional connection?


They so prefer an emotional connection. But if alpha/sigma is available for sex without love, they'll settle for just the sex if it's the right time of the month, or they're pissed off at hubby, etc. As Roissy said, "For most women, five minutes of Alpha is worth five years of Beta."

Notice the "most" bit, above. NAWALT, or so they say.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Whether we are for or against marriage as it exists today, the fact remains that the marriage rates are, and have been, dropping for quite some time and more and more people are choosing to simply live together, especially by those who were once married for decades and are now divorced. People in my age group (over 50) and over are some of the contributors to this trend. For them, another divorce is simply too much, financially speaking, to deal with and recover from.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Machiavelli said:


> They so prefer an emotional connection. But if alpha/sigma is available for sex without love, they'll settle for just the sex if it's the right time of the month, or they're pissed off at hubby, etc. As Roissy said, "For most women, five minutes of Alpha is worth five years of Beta."
> 
> Notice the "most" bit, above. NAWALT, or so they say.


I`m sorry Machiavelli but I`ve known far too many women to believe this is true.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

tacoma said:


> I`m sorry Machiavelli but I`ve known far too many women to believe this is true.


What don't you believe?


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Then you are/were either Alpha or Sigma, depending on what set of nomenclature you're using. Notice I said "are/were." I went through a 12 year period of being a porker and that attention went away completely. _I became invisible to women_ when I got outside the "golden ratio" and the bespectacled, fat face and white hair didn't help. Once I dropped fat and rebuilt muscle and went back to wearing contacts, the attention resumed. If I were to start up playing music again, my wife probably would go into hyperdrive.


How is the muscle building post age 50? Can a man build much at that age?


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

BigLiam said:


> How is the muscle building post age 50? Can a man build much at that age?


It's very, very slow due to the reduced testosterone from age 40 onward, but it can be done. I returned to training 5 years ago and things are just now really looking good. I've dropped about 45# of fat and put on about 18# of muscle. A number of my over 50 clients have opted for supplemental testosterone and those guys/gals have made excellent, 19 year old style progress. This is not an option for me at this time (prostate cancer). Small waist (golden ratio) and sixpack are the most important things for the over 50 male at the pool party.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> I started dating my ex before I made a dime.


My point was, his options with pre-nup are limited as they cohabited from the times he was a broke student. But I expect he can afford all the lawyers in the world.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

snap said:


> My point was, his options with pre-nup are limited as they cohabited from the times he was a broke student. But I expect he can afford all the lawyers in the world.


I'm no lawyer either but I thought prenup meant before marriage? I have no idea how common law issues affect this. Either way, I wish them all the best and if they do get divorced maybe she'll just walk away with a few hundred millions. Still a lot of money in my book.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Well prenup or not, she'll unlikely ever starve if they divorce.


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## domah (May 18, 2012)

jaquen said:


> This website attracts a lot of the jaded, scorned, and cynical, people who are hurting, or have been hurt, by the scars of bad marriages and bad choices. It isn't a remotely unbiased look at marriage.
> 
> Having said that, look around. There are a lot of people here, myself included, who absolutely _love _being married, or in long term relationships.


Its great that you find yourself in a happy marriage. Statistics tell us, you are in the minority, so congratulations for beating the odds. 

There is nothing inherently wrong with marriage. The problem is, if ever the marriage were to dissolve, the man shoulders a disproportionate amount of the blame and financial burden. 

An unbiased look at marriage means looking at the statistics without emotional bias. Here in the US, this tells us that statistically most marriages are doomed to fail. It also tells us that 75% of the time, it will be the women who initiates the divorce, and out of all alimony awards, 92% of the time, the women will be on the receiving end of alimony. Furthermore, it is quite clearly evident, that marriage laws disproportionately punish men. 

I've nothing against marriage; however, marriage today (now known as Marriage 2.0) is not the same marriage that we knew a generation or two ago. As a college educated young man, the potential downside of Marriage 2.0 far outweighs any possible benefits to me and (I believe) most every young man. There are no businesses that would sign such a disproportionate business contract, so why should people sign such a contract? Its a shame, because growing up, I admired my parents and their marriage.

What it boils down to is this: There is no rational or logical reason for a male (at any age) to get married. A man can enjoy the benefits of a relationship, children and more without subjecting himself to a possible lifetime of financial servitude. One can only assume the reason men continue to marry is purely emotional.


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## domah (May 18, 2012)

snap said:


> My point was, his options with pre-nup are limited as they cohabited from the times he was a broke student. But I expect he can afford all the lawyers in the world.


Prenups *are routinely voided* in Family court. Really, the only way to avoid this mess in the first place is to not subject yourself to such a lop-sided contract in the first place (ie. do not get married).


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

domah said:


> Its great that you find yourself in a happy marriage. Statistics tell us, you are in the minority, so congratulations for beating the odds.
> 
> There is nothing inherently wrong with marriage. The problem is, if ever the marriage were to dissolve, the man shoulders a disproportionate amount of the blame and financial burden.
> 
> ...


OK. Well good luck. Take care.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Machiavelli said:


> This is not an option for me at this time (prostate cancer)


What is the status of your cancer?


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

morituri said:


> What is the status of your cancer?


As of my last check, PSA was undetectable. I'm now 5 years out and due for another PSA test. I hate sweating those results out.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Machiavelli said:


> As of my last check, PSA was undetectable. I'm now 5 years out and due for another PSA test. I hate sweating those results out.


Have you read *Task force recommends against PSA test for prostate cancer*? It seems there is somewhat of a controversy on its effectiveness to detect prostate cancer.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

morituri said:


> Have you read *Task force recommends against PSA test for prostate cancer*? It seems there is somewhat of a controversy on its effectiveness to detect prostate cancer.


Yeah, that's been coming for a while. See, as the govt takes over more and more of the cost of treatment, the govt has a vested financial interest in not finding any cancer. If you don't look, you can't find it. This is why the 5 year survivability rate for PCa in the US is 90% and the UK rate is only 50%.

The regular PSA test found mine just find. Got the prostate cut out and now I have to have an extremely sensitive PSA test done every 4 months. So long as they get an "undetectable" result, I'm good. Once PSA starts turning up again, the cancer's back.


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## JuliaP (Mar 21, 2011)

I would definitely never do it again if I got D. Never, never, never, never. why? for what?


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## vickyyy (Oct 28, 2011)

JuliaP said:


> I would definitely never do it again if I got D. Never, never, never, never. why? for what?



marriage is very profitable venture for women.


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## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

Machiavelli said:


> Yeah, that's been coming for a while. See, as the govt takes over more and more of the cost of treatment, the govt has a vested financial interest in not finding any cancer. If you don't look, you can't find it. This is why the 5 year survivability rate for PCa in the US is 90% and the UK rate is only 50%.
> 
> The regular PSA test found mine just find. Got the prostate cut out and now I have to have an extremely sensitive PSA test done every 4 months. So long as they get an "undetectable" result, I'm good. Once PSA starts turning up again, the cancer's back.


Unfortunately, you are exactly right. First they did that with mammograms, then it was PAP smears. Changing the guidelines, saying women dont need them as frequently, etc. Now they're hitting the men's healthcare. It's going to keep getting worse, but not enough people realize what's going on and probably won't until it's too late. Our system's not perfect but you won't get better care anywhere else. At least for now. Good luck to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

TeaLeaves4 said:


> Our system's not perfect but you won't get better care anywhere else.


You may be interested in reading *Pay More, Get Less for U.S. Healthcare*. It's quite an eye opener and jibes with my experiences when I've traveled abroad.


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