# The long decline



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
I'm sad to be posting this. For many years my wife and I had a very poor sex life. Declining frequency - eventually down to less than once a month, and in addition she was extremely selfish in bed.

A few years ago (after many previous attempts) I confronted her. Though I didn't tell her, this conversation was going to end in my asking for a divorce. To my surprise she tried to improve and DID. We started having sex every other day. She was much more open to doing things. We were BOTH happy. Our lives were so much better. 

Sadly though the decline has started again. As when we first met it is very gradual. Every other day became every other day when we weren't too busy, to twice a week, to weekly, to weekly when we weren't too busy. Now its been a month.

The thing is, life has been very difficult for her lately. Job problems, elderly parents passed away. She has every right to be stressed and not want sex. 

OTOH, every thing just results in a downward ramp. I don't want to pressure her now with all the problems she is facing - but at the same time I'm bothered that whenever things go wrong it is sex that disappears first. We still spend time with friends, go for hikes in the mountains, she goes to the opera etc. 

So I'm torn. If I bug her about sex now, I will be acting like a complete A$$hole give the problems in her life. OTOH, why is sex always the thing that suffers? 

I'll probably give her a few months then try to talk again. I don't have high hopes though.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

richard... Very sorry you are going through this again . I was in a 20-year marriage with little to no sex, so I understand how you are feeling.

Being in a very healthy relationship now, THIS is the part I don't understand (never could figure it out in my own marriage):



richardsharpe said:


> The thing is, life has been very difficult for her lately. Job problems, elderly parents passed away. *She has every right to be stressed and not want sex.*
> 
> OTOH, every thing just results in a downward ramp. *I don't want to pressure her now* with all the problems she is facing - but at the same time I'm bothered that whenever things go wrong it is sex that disappears first.


These are the times when she should WANT to draw closer to you through sex. I never understood why when some people feel stress and pressure, they avoid sex. Sex is a natural stress reliever. I would think she would feel much better, and much closer to you, if she would be intimate with you. I honestly think it comes down to a "mismatch." 

I'm obviously just echoing your own sentiments; no advice to offer. I never figured it out, and I finally divorced my husband.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening happyasaclam
yes it is strange. Sex seems to affect people very differently. For me it is fun, bonding, and also relaxing. For my wife it leaves her sort of awake - makes her insomnia worse. 

She has to be very relaxed and well rested to be interested. 

One thing that is especially frustrating is that the almost always enjoys sex when we do have it - just rarely wants to start. The decline is almost as if she forgets how much she enjoys it when it has been a while.


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## flyer (Jun 23, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> One thing that is especially frustrating is that the almost always enjoys sex when we do have it - just rarely wants to start. The decline is almost as if she forgets how much she enjoys it when it has been a while.


This is how it is with me. At least I think she enjoys it, she acts like it, and says we need to do this more often. But then ignores, or rejects every initiation. So much so, that I've given up.
For me, it's sort of easier to deal with not expecting anything than total rejection.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm sorry to hear you're experiencing another decline. It does sound like stress is a significant factor in her lowered libido, though, so knowing that the two of you were able to successfully address this once already, a little patience seems reasonable to get past this latest rough patch. If things don't naturally pick up then, eventually you may want to discuss the situation again - it worked before, so may well work again.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

I think you should talk about it, but come from the standpoint that you've noticed the decline but understand her stress is a factor and you'd like to help out however you can. That's not being an a$$hole, that's being supportive. It also brings the issue back to her mind again as a reminder. Try to find a way to set some intimacy goals, with the objective of slowly ramping things back up again, and have times when you both re-evaluate where you are sexually. This will force her to keep it on her mind from time to time so the subject doesn't get lost in the shuffle. It doesn't need to be a pushy thing. Have a talk about it every week or two as a scheduled touch-point.


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

I would have another talk with her. She might be stressed and upset about her parents passing but I think if you don't talk to her then your sex life will continue to decline. She just doesn't think sex is a priority so you have to remind her of how important it is for you.

Stress can effect a persons sex life, I know if my husband is overly stressed he isn't always in the mood even though I remind him that sex is a stress reliever. Thankfully it doesn't last. I recently loss my Mom and found it very comforting to be with my husband but everyone reacts differently.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Lila
we just got back from a vacation. In fact we planned this as a romantic, relaxing vacation, but (as often happened in the past) she wanted to be out doing things all day, then would come back to the hotel too exhausted for intimacy. (This was a place we had visited before - we specifically picked it so we wouldn't feel like we needed to be out doing things all day long and could relax).

This is exactly the pattern of many years ago. I still remember a week in a beautiful 500 year old palace converted to hotel on the banks of the grand canal in Venice. Our intimacy was limited to a good-night kiss. (that was the final straw before the last time I cornered her for a talk).







Lila said:


> Hi Richard
> 
> I am so very sorry to read that you're headed back into a decline with your wife. I know it seems a daunting task to start the whole process again with your wife but i think you should not give up. If you were successful once, you can be successful again.
> 
> ...


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Lila
> we just got back from a vacation. In fact we planned this as a romantic, relaxing vacation, but (as often happened in the past) she wanted to be out doing things all day, then would come back to the hotel too exhausted for intimacy. (This was a place we had visited before - we specifically picked it so we wouldn't feel like we needed to be out doing things all day long and could relax).
> 
> This is exactly the pattern of many years ago. I still remember a week in a beautiful 500 year old palace converted to hotel on the banks of the grand canal in Venice. Our intimacy was limited to a good-night kiss. (that was the final straw before the last time I cornered her for a talk).


Sounds like my honeymoon.

Time to corner her again.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
I find it interesting too see how the tone of my posts has changed in the last two months. My old posts were about how happy I was, how I loved my wife. I tried to convince others to help / save their marriages.

Now my posts are becoming ever more bitter, more hopeless. I find myself falling back into modes of posting and thinking from years ago. I'm frustrated and angry. I find myself pulling away again, not wanting to get too close to her. 

The only difference is a month or two without intimacy. 

There is an excuse - a very good one (death in the family). But as happened in years past sex seems like the only part of our lives that is suffering. 

Guys - this LD/HD stuff is just deadly to relationships.


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## doobie (Apr 15, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> I find it interesting too see how the tone of my posts has changed in the last two months. My old posts were about how happy I was, how I loved my wife. I tried to convince others to help / save their marriages.
> 
> Now my posts are becoming ever more bitter, more hopeless. I find myself falling back into modes of posting and thinking from years ago. I'm frustrated and angry. I find myself pulling away again, not wanting to get too close to her.
> ...


I do think one of the worst things about being in a sexless marriage is what it does to your personality. I've always been a cheerful, happy person - enjoying the little things in day to day life. I've always been a glass half full person. 

However, since getting married, I find myself becoming more and more miserable over the lack of sex (and the huge mistake my marriage now seems to be less than two years later). This misery is turning me into a person I don't like. I've always worked hard on my feelings to make sure that life doesn't get me down. I've had a really tough life with lots of struggling to make ends meet but I've brought up two wonderful children and have managed to enjoy it all, even when things were really tight - we were always a happy household, with mum enjoying looking after the kids, the cooking, cleaning, hard work, etc - I felt very blessed.

Now in my fifties I find myself feeling that life has played a cruel trick on me and, try as I might, I find myself losing my usualy sunny disposition. I'm beginning to feel bitter and betrayed and I don't like what it's doing to me.

Richard, I so hope you can get back to where you were with your wife. Stress and bereavement should be making you both draw closer together to find comfort in your relationship with each other, not driving you further apart. I had a family tragedy a few months ago - had to rush overseas and spend 6 weeks away. Then within four weeks of my return, my mother in law passed away and we both had to get emergency flights home, etc. I think it would have been really helpful during that time if we could have given each other some loving comfort, physical and emotional - but the connection between us has broken. I really hope that you can regain that connection with your wife.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Richard,

What would you do if you noticed your wife go on spending binges in which she ignored the healthy stewardship of your finances and over spent? How long would you wait it out? 

Has she been rejecting your advances or has she been giving those subtle signals that essentially mean she's not in the mood?

If she makes plans for outings that leave her with little energy to have sex is there some reason why you don't nix the idea for the outing in favor of saving energy for each other?

You sound as if you are being very passive waiting for her to put the relationship first and hoping she does. In your quest to be supportive of the recent deaths in her family you're allowing her to drift further and further away and crossing your fingers that she notices.

Speak up!

"No, don't want to tour the Opera House. I want to stay in and have sex with you...and then maybe we'll have enough energy to order room service."

Is there some reason why sex has to be the last thing you do before you fall asleep? Could it be done in the morning during shower time?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Richard,
> 
> What would you do if you noticed your wife go on spending binges in which she ignored the healthy stewardship of your finances and over spent? How long would you wait it out?
> 
> ...



This is true, and I'm certainly very guilty of this myself. I can't speak for Richard on this point, but for me it just becomes exhausting after a while of being the only person that tries to maintain the relationship. It might be passivitity, or it might just be feeling tired and discouraged.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> This is true, and I'm certainly very guilty of this myself. I can't speak for Richard on this point, but for me it just becomes exhausting after a while of being the only person that tries to maintain the relationship. It might be passivitity, or it might just be feeling tired and discouraged.


And a certain degree of hopelessness. After a while you begin to think that there's simply nothing you can do to make things better. And if you're the only one trying, you're probably right.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> This is true, and I'm certainly very guilty of this myself. I can't speak for Richard on this point, but for me it just becomes exhausting after a while of being the only person that tries to maintain the relationship. It might be passivitity, or it might just be feeling tired and discouraged.


You're preaching to the choir Fozzy.

But, as the spouse who seems to have one disaster after another someone has to be the rock and someone the siren and sometimes it has to be the same person in both roles.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

That makes the other party a shipwreck waiting to happen.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> I find it interesting too see how the tone of my posts has changed in the last two months. My old posts were about how happy I was, how I loved my wife. I tried to convince others to help / save their marriages.
> 
> Now my posts are becoming ever more bitter, more hopeless. I find myself falling back into modes of posting and thinking from years ago. I'm frustrated and angry. I find myself pulling away again, not wanting to get too close to her.
> ...


You have always been a very pleasant poster, I have not noticed this change of late, but I surely would understand it.. I, too, do NOT understand those who , when stress hits.. this is the 1st thing to go.. in a Book I have about the different libido types.. it talks about a *Stressed Libido*... *Disinterested Libido*... also a *Dependent* one.. For us Dependents ...this IS the essential craving , even for the emotional connection of it that makes the world seem a brighter place despite everything else going on... it helps to get through the day, keeping that  on our faces. ...

What happened , this change that came over your wife for time.. then subsided......was it HER Mid Life surge... then it tapered down.. and it's back to what always was ?

So sorry to hear of this..

Here is a book I often recommend if you are struggling with mismatched libidos to figure out what you can live with... 

To come to understand our Partner's Lover style ..when different from our own...could be a saving grace.....







When Your Sex Drives Don't Match: Discover Your Libido Types to Create a Mutually Satisfying Sex Life 







...also *Exercises *in the back touching on "What I hope for in my Sexual relationship"...."Describing the Mismatch"..."The Cycle of misunderstanding"..."Reasons to stay, Reasons to leave"...



> *There are 10 libido types*:
> 
> *1*. *Sensual*- What you value most is the "emotional connection" a sense of being life partners....your sensual feeling of sexual desire can persist for hours or days, but it is not necessarily urgent unless your partner shows she is in the mood. Pleasing your partner gives you considerable pleasure ~ seeing that  of contentment on her face in the afterglow ... ...greatest satisfaction comes from mutual pleasure - this does not depend on any particular technique or activity.
> 
> ...


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

doesn't anyone else find it weird that sex increases her insomnia? 

that suggests to me that she's frustrated by sex.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

(you just think that because you don't know me )

Seriously though I am well liked by people, and my wife really does love me. She just somehow has an extremely low sex drive. 



intheory said:


> Hard to imagine her being able to refuse for too long. You are so very charming


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Anon Pink
you are right that I am somewhat passive, but not completely so. 

A while back we were on vacation - where we had picked a place we had visited before so we wouldn't feel compelled to see everything again. Its a rainy, nasty day. After lunch (and simplifying a bit)

Me "why don't we just spend the afternoon in bed)

Her "But we should see the [tourist attraction]"

Me "We did see it last time, and its pouring out"

He "but we might not be back here. I'm sorry, but I'm exhausted, I'm jetlagged and not sleeping well. I'm just not feeling up to [sex]"


This conversation gets repeated fairly often - with different reasons, but always the same pattern. 

The reasons are real - she is exhausted, or incredibly busy or something. 

The point is that I don't want her to feel she has to put herself out to have sex with me. I want her to WANT to have sex with me, or if she isn't particularly in the mood, to want to give me a nice sexual gift, the way I'm always happy to give her a massage. Most of the point is lost if she feels she is "required" to do something. 



Anon Pink said:


> Richard,
> 
> What would you do if you noticed your wife go on spending binges in which she ignored the healthy stewardship of your finances and over spent? How long would you wait it out?
> 
> ...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening clipclop2
It is very strange. She seems to orgasm (I think she really does). We usually fall asleep curled up in each others arms afterwards. But if we have sex in the evening, later that night she will have bad insomnia. 

Sex for her is very energetic, and her orgasms quite enthusiastic - she's given herself mild whiplash from flailing around. If I avoid doing things that cause really intense orgasms she sleeps better, but that defeats some of the point.

I'd guess the insomnia is psychological -maybe something about sex bothers here? She is a strange combination of inhibited - she will almost never ask for anything in bed or tell me what she wants, but at the same time she enjoys a quite wide range of activities. Does she feel guilt afterwards? Could she have been abused - she has never hinted at this. 







clipclop2 said:


> doesn't anyone else find it weird that sex increases her insomnia?
> 
> that suggests to me that she's frustrated by sex.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Sometimes excessive flailing indicates faking. If she's faking she might be avoiding because of that.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

*Re: Re: The long decline*



richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Anon Pink
> you are right that I am somewhat passive, but not completely so.
> 
> A while back we were on vacation - where we had picked a place we had visited before so we wouldn't feel compelled to see everything again. Its a rainy, nasty day. After lunch (and simplifying a bit)
> ...


Deejo posted this in a thread in 2012 that resurfaced a few days ago. Pay attention to the portion regarding her comfort with your discomfort. I am doing this from my phone so I will post the url momentarily. 

_"Going to probably go a bit against the grain here.

But ...

Were I in your shoes now, armed with the information I have internalized, I would'nt SAY a blessed thing about what is going to happen or what you expect.

She already knows ... and obviously hasn't done much.

You need to start DOING. For yourself.

I understand that you want your wife to love, respect and be intimate with you ... but that equation isn't working nearly to your satisfaction.

So, change it.

Be accountable to and honest with yourself. That is certainly one of the tenets of NMMNG.

Do get in shape.
Nail down what's going on with your knee. If ice, ibuprofen and a brace are going to suffice, then move forward. If you need another surgery, go see your orthopedist.

In short. Start ACTING, DOING.

The biggest mistake most guys make once they start down this road is the belief that if they do X, their wife will respond with Y.

Very rarely does it work that way.

Do X because it is the thing that you want or need to do to improve YOUR life, with or without your spouses acknowledgement, blessing, or curse.

I absolutely understand that women need to feel loved, safe, and respected in order to want to roll through the sheets or take the ottoman for a spin ...

but ... sometimes in order to rebuild that dynamic you need to shatter the existing dynamic wherein she feels completely comfortable with your discomfort.

So ... the goal is that you get comfortable with your life despite whether your partner is comfortable with it or not.

Think you can do that?"_

And this in the same thread from 10_Year_Hubby:

_Likewise with her being sick of my bringing up intimacy. I'm sorry for her, but too bad. She can do what I ask or she can talk about it or she/we can go to counseling. Last time we went down the talking path, I expressed to her I was A-OK with the concept of "not doing something our partner wants because we don't want to/don't feel like it" as a basis for our relationship. I got up out of bed, went downstairs and opened myself a beer and was almost overjoyed with all the thoughts of all the stuff I wasn't going to have to do any more because I didn't want to. However, that joy was short lived because I never heard "I don't want to" since then._

ETA: here is the url.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/showthread.php?t=60223


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Fozzy
Its possible. I don't think so, but if she has been acting for almost 30 years, despite my making it clear that I'm willing to do anything she wants, then there really isn't a whole lot I can think of to do about it.

FWIW, she has claimed that she has never faked it. (again, one can believe that or not). 

If she is faking , she is very good - at times pretending to be having a difficult time and getting a bit frustrated, at other times being caught by surprise. 



Fozzy said:


> Sometimes excessive flailing indicates faking. If she's faking she might be avoiding because of that.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> 
> *Now my posts are becoming ever more bitter, more hopeless. I find myself falling back into modes of posting and thinking from years ago. I'm frustrated and angry. I find myself pulling away again, not wanting to get too close to her.*
> 
> ...


richard... I don't know if you've ever taken time to read my thread.. in my signature line below. I was a faithful wife *for 20 years.*

In the last year of my marriage, I fell in love with another man (my current SO of nearly 4 years). I was FLOGGED by many TAMers for what they "deemed" was an EA, but also supported by MANY others who realized my misery. To HIS credit, my SO did not know how I felt before I filed for divorce, we never spoke about our feelings, never flirted, never sent texts or sext messages -- I think the attraction was mutual, but we never discussed it. I could see it in his eyes, and I think he could see it in mine (wow... that sounds like a cheesy novel!!) What prompted me to file for divorce -- I realized that "married people" shouldn't have these feelings for others. At the same time, I celebrated these feelings, realizing that the lack of sex and desirability in my marriage wasn't on ME any longer. It took meeting someone else to make me realize my self-worth.

Once I realized how MUCH chemistry, attraction, similar sex drive, MATTER to a relationship, I filed for divorce from my then-husband. You can read my thread for all the sordid details.

Many here know my story... I am now in a long-term relationship with the love of my life. He is EVERYTHING my ex was not... loving, kind, generous to a fault, sexy, Alpha-male, great in bed, a TRUE partner in all ways.

I wish you the very best. I know EXACTLY what you're feeling right now...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Anon Pink
> you are right that I am somewhat passive, but not completely so.
> 
> A while back we were on vacation - where we had picked a place we had visited before so we wouldn't feel compelled to see everything again. Its a rainy, nasty day. After lunch (and simplifying a bit)
> ...


Hmmmm. As someone also plagued with recurrent insomnia I can understand the anxiety of doing something that might trigger another sleepless night! 

And I completely understand and agree with your desire to not guilt her into showing a level of enthusiasm for sex.

What if you recalled to her attention the series of conversations you two had some time ago that resulted in her being more focused on your sex life as a priority and then when she remembers those conversations you simply smile and say, consider everything I said then said again. 

Perhaps framing the conversation in terms of getting her insomnia taken care of because it absolutely is affecting your relationship?

All that aside, it simply doesn't make sense that she was too fatigued to spend a rainy afternoon having sex and instead wanted to go sight seeing. That makes no sense at all. And while she may be a highly energetic and enthusiastic lover, it doesn't take that much energy. I really think something else is going on and it is something else that is prompting her to avoid sex.

All kinds of embarrassing things happen between the legs that would cause a woman to not want to have sex, just then, but not later.

Do you think she is aware of how you feel? Do you think she is aware of how sex has declined? Is she the type who would preemptively bring it up to you or would she say something if she was aware that she's been avoiding sex?

My husband was never an affectionate man, never said loving words and never complimented me. Maybe 7 years ago I finally spoke up. And kept bringing it up, and kept bringing it up, and kept bringing it up. Heard ever reason why, heard all the "I don't know what to say, I don't know what you want me to do..." Heard all of it up one side and down the other. For the past year he has been consciously trying very hard to show affection on his own and to say loving words to me. It seems so trivial in this simply paragraph but imagine living with someone who never says "I love you" or "you're beautiful" or reaches out to hold your hand for 29 years! 

The point I'm making is that if this is important to you, you have to make sure she knows whether by continued conversation, by signals or by letter. "You're doing it again!" She responded the last time so chances are she will respond this time too. And this time you might want to add a part about how it feels to ask to be loved when what you want and need is to Just Be Loved!


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Anon Pink
Its difficult to talk to her because the discussion tends to go one of two ways (simplifying a lot here).

1). Me "we really aren't having sex much any more".
Her: "I know, I'm really sorry. [reasonable excuse]. I'll try, but I'm just too [reasnable excuse] tonight.

or

2). Me: "I know about [reasonable excuse], but its been weeks now, we need to make this more of a priority"
Her: [becomes upset or crying] "I know, it just that [excuse causing her great distress], ". 

I don't think it is an intentional ploy, but the effect is that attempts to talk to her result in her being hurt (and no change)- and I don't like hurting her.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

*Re: Re: The long decline*



richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Anon Pink
> Its difficult to talk to her because the discussion tends to go one of two ways (simplifying a lot here).
> 
> 1). Me "we really aren't having sex much any more".
> ...


The longer you are passive about it, the harder it is to undo. 

You are teaching her, through your actions, that deprioritizing you is okay.

ETA: Is deprioritizing even a word?


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> ETA: Is deprioritizing even a word?


It seems that "deprioritize" and "deprioritization" are "real" words! Following MY logic (which is sketchy at best) I vote that "deprioritizing" is a word... At least on TAM, anything reasonably "logical" goes... Unless, of course, the MODS get involved...(I realize I could get banned for this dictionary argument) 

:lol:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/deprioritize


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

richard... hang in there. We are all rooting for you and your marriage!

I would not wish divorce (and all its UGLINESS) on anyone... HOWEVER, having said that, if that's what it takes to "get to the other side" and find *true happiness*) then it is what it is. Life is short. We only get one shot at it. Why is your wife PREVENTING you from a happy life? That's the ultimate question... 

*Hugs*


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Anon Pink
> Its difficult to talk to her because the discussion tends to go one of two ways (simplifying a lot here).
> 
> 1). Me "we really aren't having sex much any more".
> ...


Richard, you exemplify the quandary of a true gentleman. 

Your really to the above hypothetical conversations might be: "I don't want to see you hurt or upset. However, even less do I want to feel that wanting desire from my wife is too much to ask, because it is not too much to ask. So how can we address [insert reasonable excuse] this so that it no longer has a direct effect on our sex life?"

Farside junky is right. Deprioritizing is a word and that is what is happening and a good marriage partner would not allow the marriage to be deprioritized.


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## doobie (Apr 15, 2014)

That's the problem with trying to have a calm and civilised discussion about this sort of thing. My husband cries very easily whereas I hardly ever cry. At some point during every discussion he starts to cry and I always seem to back off, feeling like the ***** fiend from hell. It's very difficult to force the issue when it's causing somebody you love so much obvious distress.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I have insomnia when something is bothering me. Since you fall asleep together afterward she might very well be satisfied with the physical aspects but is bothered by something else.

Have you asked her what recurring thoughts she has when she later wakes? 

It could be guilt, flashbacks, time management issues - like what she thinks she SHOULD have been doing instead of having fun and then sleeping. Dunno.

I just find this characteristic really odd. 

She has insomnia at other times as well?


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## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> I'm sad to be posting this. For many years my wife and I had a very poor sex life. Declining frequency - eventually down to less than once a month, and in addition she was extremely selfish in bed.
> 
> A few years ago (after many previous attempts) I confronted her. Though I didn't tell her, this conversation was going to end in my asking for a divorce. To my surprise she tried to improve and DID. We started having sex every other day. She was much more open to doing things. We were BOTH happy. Our lives were so much better.
> ...


Richard,
Sorry to hear you have rejoined the club that no one wants to be a member of.

Here is the thing with LD people, Sex is always the first thing to go whenever their apple cart gets upset. It is the first thing to go because it is not important to them. She has been making an effort to keep sex on her priority list so that she may maintain a good relationship with you. You do not have to make an effort because as a HD person it comes naturally.

Whenever something of importance or stress enters the life of a LD, something else has to get dropped and guess what that is, sex that is not important to them.

Like most HD people sex is comforting and soothing and just makes everything better for you. It does not for the LD because they don't get the emotional satisfaction from sex. The LD will try to avoid sex at times of stress because it is just one more thing they don't want to do.

Us HD people can't understand this because to us the emotional connections are natural and we think, hey who wouldn't want to do this wonderful thing called sex.

The LD person will not understand that dropping sex is dropping the priority rating of the marriage because they typically do not get the connection between the two that the HD person makes.

I am writing this to you on the day of our 27th anniversary, it is likely that my LD wife will not remember or at best I will get a card with out so much as a kiss or hug. Four weeks ago I told her i got an offer for a weekend at a resort that was fairly cheap and I was going to make reservations for our anniversary. She responded that it was too much money and we had a lot of bills coming. Since then we have spent double that on items that were not planned and not necessary. The lesson is, that anything that may lead to sex will be avoided.

Celebrating our anniversary for her has always been a source of stress because it may lead to sex. It has become a source of stress for me because it will not lead to sex and the emotional connection that I need from it.

Both sides of this issue really need to understand the difference that sex makes. We HD people don't understand why on earth anyone would want to avoid it, and need to understand that to the LD it is just another undesirable thing that they have to do. The LD people need to understand, that although to them, it isn't necessary to have a good relationship it is an absolute necessity to the HD to have a good relationship.

If both sides can manage to understand this, then you may have a chance at a successful relationship mix between the HD and LD people.

I wish you well, because I am going through the same thing. I always have to drag her back into this marriage.


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## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Richard, you exemplify the quandary of a true gentleman.
> 
> Your really to the above hypothetical conversations might be: "I don't want to see you hurt or upset. However, even less do I want to feel that wanting desire from my wife is too much to ask, because it is not too much to ask. So how can we address [insert reasonable excuse] this so that it no longer has a direct effect on our sex life?"
> 
> Farside junky is right. Deprioritizing is a word and that is what is happening and a good marriage partner would not allow the marriage to be deprioritized.


Anon Pink,

You and Getting It could make a large fortune conducting seminars for LD people!


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening cyclop2
Yes she frequently has insomnia, has for a very long time. Various forms of medical intervention didn't lead to good results (long story but we did everything reasonable in that direction). 

All she can tell me about sex induced insomnia is that it leaves her "worked up" hours later. She doesn't understand it. It could be that she is lying to protect me from something she doesn't think I want to hear. 

Everyone - I appreciate the good wishes and discussion. Always learning my be right - LD people just see sex in a fundamentally different way. 

I think I've said before - this is this is the sort of thing that SHOULD be taught in sex-ed. Too many people end up in unhappy relationships because they don't realize how differently people view sex and just assume that with time it will all work itself out.




clipclop2 said:


> I have insomnia when something is bothering me. Since you fall asleep together afterward she might very well be satisfied with the physical aspects but is bothered by something else.
> 
> Have you asked her what recurring thoughts she has when she later wakes?
> 
> ...


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

how is her relationship with her family? I suspected something in the background that she doesn't want to tell you. And that's her choice but unfortunately it's going to wreck her marriage. I'm sorry that you find yourself in this place. But I would encourage her that if there is anything in her background that you should know that would explain some of what you've experienced that now is the time for her to come forward. life is short and you love her but this is not sustainable for the rest of your life. you've been more than patient.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> I'm sad to be posting this. For many years my wife and I had a very poor sex life. Declining frequency - eventually down to less than once a month, and in addition she was extremely selfish in bed.
> 
> A few years ago (after many previous attempts) I confronted her. Though I didn't tell her, this conversation was going to end in my asking for a divorce. To my surprise she tried to improve and DID. We started having sex every other day. She was much more open to doing things. We were BOTH happy. Our lives were so much better.
> ...


Richard:

dust off your talk from a few years ago, the one that ends in discussion of divorce. offer to be her lifetime friend but explain that you need a real wife and need to be free to look for one.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening clipclop2
as far as I know she had a good relationship with her family. There could of course always be dark secrets that I don't know about.



clipclop2 said:


> how is her relationship with her family? I suspected something in the background that she doesn't want to tell you. And that's her choice but unfortunately it's going to wreck her marriage. I'm sorry that you find yourself in this place. But I would encourage her that if there is anything in her background that you should know that would explain some of what you've experienced that now is the time for her to come forward. life is short and you love her but this is not sustainable for the rest of your life. you've been more than patient.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good eveing happy as a clam
I read your story, and completely support what you did. 

I have thought about divorce - was minutes away last time - though I don't think she realizes that. I am not willing to "threaten" divorce for sex - If I get to the point of asking, that will be the end.

The thing is, a couple of years ago when things were good - they were REALLY GOOD. We got caught making out in a hotel elevator because we couldn't keep our hands off of each other. (it wasn't too bad, but pretty funny). We were the way lovers were supposed to be- and as far as I could tell it was wonderful for her as well.

It as if she forgets how nice it is. Or maybe she enjoys all of the other affection, but not sex itself? Mostly it seems that to her sex is completely unrelated to everything else - nice, but if you are busy you can skip it and not expect anything else to change.

It seem like the basic LD/HD issue. For LD people, sex is just one of those things you do - like going to the movies, or eating Mexican food. If life gets busy, maybe you skip going to the movies for a few months, or maybe skip sex. For HD people sex is intimately tied to all other aspects of the relationship.


The thing that keeps me from giving up is that I found out that it is possible for us to have a wonderful relationship. 





happy as a clam said:


> richard... hang in there. We are all rooting for you and your marriage!
> 
> I would not wish divorce (and all its UGLINESS) on anyone... HOWEVER, having said that, if that's what it takes to "get to the other side" and find *true happiness*) then it is what it is. Life is short. We only get one shot at it. Why is your wife PREVENTING you from a happy life? That's the ultimate question...
> 
> *Hugs*


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> I have thought about divorce - was minutes away last time - though I don't think she realizes that. I am not willing to "threaten" divorce for sex - If I get to the point of asking, that will be the end.


I agree that threatening divorce for sex is wrong. HOWEVER, letting your partner know in advance that you're concerned that your marriage is headed that way is not the same thing. One is a threat, the other is a heads-up. One is done out of wanting to get your way, the other is done out of wanting to save your relationship.


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## justfabulous (Feb 9, 2014)

clipclop2 said:


> I have insomnia when something is bothering me. Since you fall asleep together afterward she might very well be satisfied with the physical aspects but is bothered by something else.


Some people experience insomnia when they feel really _invigorated._ I don't know whether this could be it with your wife, just raising the possibility. I know there have been times I've been really tired, but then my husband and I get intimate and have a really great experience, and I end up feeling a little 'wired' (in a good way) afterwards and can't get to sleep. Its like I'm on a little bit of a high. I end up climbing out of bed and going off to clean the bathroom to burn off energy. Or I read, watch tv or cook until I feel tired. Or on occasion I still feel sleepy, yet also have that little 'high', so I stay in bed and just lie there for another 3 hours watching my husband sleep like a baby. 

In my case, its nothing negative. Like I said, more like a really great high from a really nice time that wires me up a bit and prevents me from feeling sleepy. Of course, this doesn't happen to me all the time, but often enough. Do you think it possible that your wife feels so good after the two of you have connected, especially since she knows how important it is to you, that it leaves her on a bit of a high...?


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## justfabulous (Feb 9, 2014)

Just finished reading the complete thread and have this additional comment. It seems there are some women who enjoy sex very much, but they perceive it as primarily a _recreational activity_. Its like they have to be in "let's party" mode for it to happen, or at least a lighter, more care free mood. These are women who need to feel super-relaxed and need everything to be close to perfect for them to be in the mood for sex. So, if they are troubled, overworked, frazzled, tired, stressed, grieving, etc, sex is not something they will be into. It almost feels "wrong" to them to have sex if they are sad, or bereaved. Its a "partying" behavior, and it's not "right" for them to "party" if they are still grieving from the recent loss of a loved one, etc. Its also as if they do not know how to_ switch modes_ to go from stressed to sex, for instance. When they are tired, they don't have energy for sex - just as they may not have energy to go out and 'party'. 

Whereas, there are other types of women who view sex as a comfort, a way to feel taken care of, or a way to relax if they are stressed; to them, sex is less a recreational activity as it is one of intense bonding and emotional connection - so they would be inclined to feel the desire for sex in order to feel comforted and closeness during stressful times, bereavement etc. When they are tired, they enjoy sex as a lovely form of relaxation.

It seems to me that the latter type is more sexually enlightened. The former may have some level of sexual repression in them. Or they simply have not yet fully awakened to sex in terms of everything it has to offer. Often that awakening ends up happening in mid life, though I am not quite sure why.

So it doesn't necessarily mean that sex isn't important to the first type, nor does it indicate that she isn't into sex. She simply hasn't yet discovered _everything that it can be_ (and this is no reflection on her man). I'm not sure if there is anything that can be done to speed that process for this type of woman. It seems that some women just eventually "wake up" during some form of epiphany.

In terms of your wife having recently lost her parents, given that she seems to fall into the first category, not the second, under these specific circumstances maybe you need to give her a little more time to process the grief and loss. I read in a book on bereavement that it can take up to 6 months before some people feel ready to resume many types of normal activities after the death of a loved one, including sex. Perhaps its all right to give her just a little more space in this particularly difficult situation, but once an appropriate period of bereavement has gone by you could work on re-focusing her, at which time she may be more receptive to it.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good afternoon justfabulous
Yes I think that makes sense. For my wife sex is recreation. It is also something that is always available to her, so I can easily see it not being a priority. Sex is something you can do whenever you want, so it is lower priority than chores or recreation that is only available are a particular time. 

The problem of course is that when you have two people with very busy, but high paying jobs, there is ALWAYS something that needs to be done, or something that can be done.


I put sex in the category of needs, like eating. Sex every few days is a requirement for a happy life, so the same way you would not often skip a meal for recreation, you should not often skip sex for recreation.


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## oldnotbald (Oct 16, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> I'm sad to be posting this. For many years my wife and I had a very poor sex life. Declining frequency - eventually down to less than once a month, and in addition she was extremely selfish in bed.
> 
> A few years ago (after many previous attempts) I confronted her. Though I didn't tell her, this conversation was going to end in my asking for a divorce. To my surprise she tried to improve and DID. We started having sex every other day. She was much more open to doing things. We were BOTH happy. Our lives were so much better.
> ...


------------------------------------------------
I think he is riding on the same boat as mine.... but in categorically different situation!


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

clipclop2 said:


> doesn't anyone else find it weird that sex increases her insomnia?
> 
> that suggests to me that she's frustrated by sex.


I cannot sleep after sex, I am getting energy boost! extra hour or two for reading or websurfing in the middle of the night...


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

It looks like the common thread in your posts is that you're all talk and no action.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Richard,
I think that you might also find that your wife responds better to some playful edge. 

Style wise, you are very kind. 

Because of that you initiate very gently. That is also, my default setting. But M2 actually prefers more passion, more intensity, and more edge. Most women do. 

If you want some specific suggestions for blending in some edge, say the word.....

Is your wife athletic? I know she goes to the opera, and hikes with you. Do you ever wrestle with her? 

Do you banter with her, tease her a bit....





richardsharpe said:


> Good afternoon justfabulous
> Yes I think that makes sense. For my wife sex is recreation. It is also something that is always available to her, so I can easily see it not being a priority. Sex is something you can do whenever you want, so it is lower priority than chores or recreation that is only available are a particular time.
> 
> The problem of course is that when you have two people with very busy, but high paying jobs, there is ALWAYS something that needs to be done, or something that can be done.
> ...


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

intheory said:


> I guess I just wish people could be their own version of sexy; and not have to follow instructions, or a gameplan, out of a manual.


:iagree:

If I am in a sexual relationship with someone, they will always get me not some guide book.

One of the things that I especially love with all of the sexual partners I have had is that I got them and not some guide book.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

intheory said:


> I have to add my vote to the "sex gives me energy" crowd. Having an orgasm often feels like having weight lifted off my body and I get up and going  Not always, but most of the time.
> 
> And I know folks are trying to help richard by suggesting he gets "edgier" or whatever. This bothers me. Just like guys are supposed to read those books everyone suggests. I mean, don't get me wrong, if they _do_ help you, then great.
> 
> ...


Having been one who TRIED to get my husband more this or that... just for the enjoyment of a little ROUGH, edgy (something I have never had).......that was a real struggle for him... it's a good thing I don't need this to get turned on.... or we'd be in sad sad shape......he IS the gentle charming lover..... I really don't think he could change his stripes...I guess even this would fall under "sexual compatibility"...it seems some women need the dominant lover....if she is purely responsive desire, even more so. 

I do think the higher drive should try to adapt to whatever rocks the others boat though...study her.. what are her fantasies??...if she watches a







scene in a movie... does it turn her on?...Watch them with her!...if she reads a Romance -does this throw a spark ...(I know I know, not many women do this, I always loved them, should have read more back in the day, ALWAYS got me going)... 

Maybe she has some hidden fetish you are not aware of.. use whatever you can....if she is willing to open up to you.... grasping at straws here..


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
My wife very rarely wants me to be assertive / rough, but I'm very happy with rough (or gentle) play. I'm happy to be dominant or submissive in bed. I can generally tell if she is in a mood for rough play and am happy to oblige. She definitely doesn't like slapping, hair pulling etc. 

She did like bondage at one point long ago - but after a while decided she didn't like it, felt too much like she was really being forced - and has turned down the suggestion the few times since then that I have asked.

Its tricky - she absolutely won't tell me what she wants - though she will let me know if I start to do something she doesn't want. 

Its so strange. While we were very sexually active, she was initiating as much as I was, sending naughty emails, practically tearing my clothes off when I got home from work. Then as things declined in frequency, her interest declined as well. Was it an act? Does she just forget how much she enjoys sex when she hasn't done it in a while?


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## doobie (Apr 15, 2014)

I do think the higher drive should try to adapt to whatever rocks the others boat though...study her.. what are her fantasies??...if she watches a [IMG said:


> http://i58.tinypic.com/ih35g1.jpg[/IMG] scene in a movie... does it turn her on?...Watch them with her!...if she reads a Romance -does this throw a spark ..
> 
> *Maybe she has some hidden fetish you are not aware of.*. use whatever you can....if she is willing to open up to you.... grasping at straws here..


As the HD in our relationship this is what I've done, allowing my husband to have the type of sex he likes. This just means very rough sex that gives pain, not pleasure - his idea of groping me is to pinch my nipple really hard when I'm not looking).


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Sorry doobie--your husband is a d1ckwad.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening WorkingOnMe
Yes - you are quite right. I just can't break out of my 3 choices:

1). leave - which really would hurt her very badly - and I don't think I can stand doing that to the woman I love.

2). Cheat - which my pride won't allow

3). Live like a monk - which is what I do.

Or I guess there is
4) Complain on anonymous social media. I do that a lot.

I could pressure her into duty-sex but that really isn't what I want.

If I didn't love her, this would be really easy. 

So, anticipating your obvious reply, I don't expect things to change. 





WorkingOnMe said:


> It looks like the common thread in your posts is that you're all talk and no action.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening WorkingOnMe
> If I didn't love her, this would be really easy.


But how much longer do you anticipate you will continue to feel love for her under present conditions? 

Things likely WILL change eventually, if not due to her actions, then perhaps due to a shift in YOUR feelings.


ETA: You've already been on divorce's doorstep once. I understand it's not your preferred solution but you already know you're capable of going there. She reigned you back in from it with some effort before, but it's not going to take another 20 years to drive you back to it.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Fozzy
Yes, I may end up there again. I'll give her a little time - for my own sake, so that I don't feel like I'm insisting on sex from a woman who is grieving from the loss of her parents (though she isn't grieving - and shouldn't be - they lived long happy lives). 





Fozzy said:


> But how much longer do you anticipate you will continue to feel love for her under present conditions?
> 
> Things likely WILL change eventually, if not due to her actions, then perhaps due to a shift in YOUR feelings.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Richard,
A very common theme in these situations is that the H keeps pouring the same amount of emotional energy into the marriage while getting more and more resentful.

Finally he hits the wall, and either has a harsh/hurtful conversation with his W or talks separation/divorce. 

Gentle suggestion. Stop communicating your sexual needs via words, and instead make a conscious effort to cut back on the positive emotional energy/love you put into the marriage.

For example, I bet you initiate a lot of loving acts in the areas below: 
- ILY, compliments, etc. 
- Hugs, kisses, touch, massages, and yes sex
- Requests to spend time together
- Acts of service 
- Gifts

Focus more time and energy on you and your hobbies. Be home less. And initiate fewer loving acts for your W. 

Don't be less friendly or less loving in tone. Just give her enough space to come to you. Let her initiate hugs. Let her be the one to say I love you first. 

If she requests an act of service, tease her. Banter with her. But don't do it. Gentle teasing, not mean teasing. 

Some of of my favorites (all said with a soft tone and a smile) are:

1. All requests for service must be submitted in writing
2. I'm afraid a full back massage is required before I could undertake such a request
3. The truth is that I'm a bit tired right now, haven't been sleeping all that well
4. I'm sorry but I think you are going to need to earn some good will points with me before I can accommodate that request

---------
Now Richard, I don't know anything about your wife. Even so, you might get a strong emotional reaction when you are reject her requests for acts of service. 

If that happens. If she truly gets upset. That represents a golden opportunity. 

If she gets upset after a series of rejections of act of service requests: 

Gently say: The way you feel right now, that is as close as you are ever going to get to understanding how I feel, when you shoot me down. 

And then be silent. 

Because that experience will help her truly understand what she's been doing to you......





richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Fozzy
> Yes, I may end up there again. I'll give her a little time - for my own sake, so that I don't feel like I'm insisting on sex from a woman who is grieving from the loss of her parents (though she isn't grieving - and shouldn't be - they lived long happy lives).


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening MEM11363
That actually happens naturally. I gradually withdraw- the all the little day to day intimacies disappear. The backrubs etc end too. She stops asking, or initiating. We lived like roommates for quite a few years (like 10).

In fact a few years ago when I confronted her (for what I thought was a final time) she said that she thought I had lost interest in her and was not longer attracted. I explained. Things were good.

Now they are falling apart again. She is a very intelligent woman, I can't believe that she doesn't understand what is happening. 

This time I know she is aware. She has mentioned a few times how rarely we have had sex recently and how she feels badly about it - just before explaining how tired / busy / distressed, she is at the moment. 

Me: we could get to bed
Her: I have this paperwork to do
Me: It can wait -there is no rush.
Her: but i'm in the middle of it, just need to finish it (sounding frustrated and annoyed).

At this point I could start complaining - and I'm sure she would give in to "duty sex" but that really isn't the point .


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Richard,

Are you saying that your wife rarely requests acts of service from you? 

Or are you saying that it doesn't bother her when you decline?








richardsharpe said:


> Good evening MEM11363
> That actually happens naturally. I gradually withdraw- the all the little day to day intimacies disappear. The backrubs etc end too. She stops asking, or initiating. We lived like roommates for quite a few years (like 10).
> 
> In fact a few years ago when I confronted her (for what I thought was a final time) she said that she thought I had lost interest in her and was not longer attracted. I explained. Things were good.
> ...


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## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Richard,
> A very common theme in these situations is that the H keeps pouring the same amount of emotional energy into the marriage while getting more and more resentful.
> 
> Finally he hits the wall, and either has a harsh/hurtful conversation with his W or talks separation/divorce.
> ...


All this.

and find a way to make your life too busy to stress about sex. So don't remove your natural desire for it, but find self improvement, individual activities that pull you away from the daily wish that sex will happen tonight. Nobody changes until they are either very self aware or uncomfortable. Your wife, for now, needs to feel uncomfortable. 

You need to make her uncomfortable. The best part is, you dont have to be an ******* to do this. There is a huge return on investment here, let me explain why. You become busy, I'd recommend physical activity. You become focused on something else. You become more desireable because either you're getting in better shape or you become something of a mystery. You have a new hobby you dont blab much about or you physically appear different. She no longer has you pegged. Immediately she will become uncomfortable. 

Now you either win or win in this situation. One win is that you want her to change (uncomfortable) and she does. The new, busy you turns her on. You act different. You seem to have some focus. You look different. You seem to have a swag. She digs it. Either you needed to change or she wanted to change how she feels about you. Either way she loves it. You continue this path, even if it feels like shes "back". The next win situation is she doesnt change. Doesnt move an inch. Gives 2 fs about your changes (see my thread). But guess what; you're a better you. You become a locked in machine. Read the 7 habits of a highly effective person. You lock in. She can no longer rattle you. The marriage survives, or it doesnt. Thats not your problem. You're such an upgrade from who you were 1, 2,3 years ago, it doesnt matter. Regardless of how she reacts, you'll be able to smoke out how she feels about you. Hold on..it gets better. The new you won't whine and sulk about her liking you. If she wants you , cool. If not, cool. Once you get there, thats liberty.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Does she just forget how much she enjoys sex when she hasn't done it in a while?


Yes


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening MEM11363
As we drift apart, she rarely asks for things so I don't need to decline things she asks for. We become roommates who get along well, and help each other out with chores, and hang around a lot. 

She doesn't become uncomfortable, we both have very busy lives - that is part of the problem there is ALWAYS something to do other than sex. (I can't remember the last time I couldn't think of anything to do with my time). 

She knows something is missing, knows what it is, but for some reason can't bring herself to fix it. It is almost as if she feels that there is something wrong with sex being important. Feels that for some reason sex *should* be the lowest priority, that it is *wrong* for it to be important. 


From my point of view, I can just decide that I don't care. Otherwise I, we have have a really good life. I can put myself in the mindset that sex doesn't matter - that is a version of "option 3" in my list. It seems unfair for me to need to do so, but it is a reasonable choice. 

Its just frustrating when I'm hit on by other women, but ignored by my wife. When my friends are jealous of the great life and especially the great marriage I have. 

Well, not to waste more time here: I am going to give her a few weeks to get over the current stress. Meanwhile I'll decide if I'd prefer to live without sex or to divorce if she won't change. 





MEM11363 said:


> Richard,
> 
> Are you saying that your wife rarely requests acts of service from you?
> 
> Or are you saying that it doesn't bother her when you decline?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Richard,

The difference between us is stark. If M2 was doing this she and I would NOT hang out a LOT. 

I am fun to be with. Clever, witty, loving. I'm also pretty low maintenance. Other than having sex a couple times a week, I can go with the flow. 

Hell, I'm better than that. The twice a week thing, I flex on that without effort or comment if anything disruptive happens to M2. 

I'm not rigid on the frequency. I am however keenly aware of where I am in M2's priority stack at any given point. Below a certain level I just start doing more of my own thing. 

As soon as that happens, M2 goes into recovery mode. She hates it when our time together gets reduced. 

But I don't adjust her priority casually. Only if I feel a pattern has emerged that isn't working for me......




richardsharpe said:


> Good evening MEM11363
> As we drift apart, she rarely asks for things so I don't need to decline things she asks for. We become roommates who get along well, and help each other out with chores, and hang around a lot.
> 
> She doesn't become uncomfortable, we both have very busy lives - that is part of the problem there is ALWAYS something to do other than sex. (I can't remember the last time I couldn't think of anything to do with my time).
> ...


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## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening MEM11363
> As we drift apart, she rarely asks for things so I don't need to decline things she asks for. We become roommates who get along well, and help each other out with chores, and hang around a lot.
> 
> She doesn't become uncomfortable, we both have very busy lives - that is part of the problem there is ALWAYS something to do other than sex. (I can't remember the last time I couldn't think of anything to do with my time).
> ...


I actually think you might be confusing the degrees of independence or willingness to become busy without her. 

You both have busy lives and always have something to do other than sex. This is standard life stuff. There is grocery shopping. There is mowing the lawn. There is home improvement. There are long work days etc. Normal stuff. Doing this stuff in conjunction with her (even if not physically together that moment) will not make her notice or feel uncomfortable. 

What you may want to consider is becoming busy (without her) with things you enjoy or that grow you. There is where your working out, hobby, evening with friends activities are played out. You wouldnt want to go crazy and completely become fully booked overnight, as it looks too phony or calculated. But you would want to incorporate some things that make you feel good outside your marriage into your life. Without her. Without her permission. HeIl, even without telling her much about it after. Night out with friends? no details given after, unless she really presses. Then just be vague and confidently short. 

It's not 100% fool proof. Theres a chance she could give 2 Fs. Theres also a chance she will be uncomfortable because you will have now outsourced some level of your happiness from the marriage. Unless she is really really checked out, her DNA will force her to notice. And when she does notice, you have to keep marching down the field, even if you build a big lead. Do not put your reserves in. Keep your starters on the field and stick to the game plan.


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## 1812overture (Nov 25, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> We lived like roommates for quite a few years (like 10).
> 
> In fact a few years ago when I confronted her (for what I thought was a final time) she said that she thought I had lost interest in her and was not longer attracted. I explained. Things were good.
> 
> Now they are falling apart again. She is a very intelligent woman, I can't believe that she doesn't understand what is happening.


Have you said all this to her? She surely seems to like you and love you (which make it different from my situation). Since you are contemplating divorce (you don't have to tell her you are) can't you put this into words? Tonight, then tomorrow night, then the next night?

MEM (accurately, IMO) notes that your struggles are common. Strong marriages ought to be able to overcome them, and yours seems to be a strong one.



> You become more desireable because either you're getting in better shape or you become something of a mystery. You have a new hobby you dont blab much about or you physically appear different. She no longer has you pegged. Immediately she will become uncomfortable.
> 
> Now you either win or win in this situation. One win is that you want her to change (uncomfortable) and she does. The new, busy you turns her on. You act different. You seem to have some focus. You look different. You seem to have a swag. She digs it.


 Good reminder, Boston. Even if it doesn't save my marriage, it makes me more desirable post-marriage.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
As I withdraw, she withdraws. We drift toward a routine where we are only together for chores, or when we vacation, but at home we each do our our own things.

I do do things apart from her. I have hobbies that sometimes occupy my evenings. I've gone on long trips without her. 

I know I sound whiny here and that gives the impression that I'm a doormat. For everything outside of my marriage, that isn't true. When I was trapped with some friends on a mountain ridge and a storm came in, I was the one people looked to to figure out how to get to safety. At work I'm the person they call when there are problems no one else can solve.

I just crippled in my marriage because I don't want to hurt my wife. 


As an example, yesterday when I got home, the first thing she said was that she was exhausted and she went to bed at 8:30.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

*Re: Re: The long decline*



richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> As I withdraw, she withdraws. We drift toward a routine where we are only together for chores, or when we vacation, but at home we each do our our own things.
> 
> I do do things apart from her. I have hobbies that sometimes occupy my evenings. I've gone on long trips without her.
> ...


Your fear of hurting your wife, at your own expense, IS doormat behavior. 

You have taught her that you are okay with her being comfortable while she is single - handedly taking actions that lead to your discomfort. 

And again, the longer you allow it to happen, the harder it is to undo.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> As an example, yesterday when I got home, the first thing she said was that she was exhausted and she went to bed at 8:30.


So what happens in the morning? Can you touch her and turn her on in the morning when she is well-rested?

I can't tell you the number of times my SO and I have gone to bed and I am so exhausted or stressed that I can't focus on sex. And I need to be able to focus in order to have an orgasm - it's a requirement for me. However, he knows how to turn me on in the morning when I'm in a much better head space and then it's full steam ahead. Caveat - this does not work when I have to get up early for work.

Does she turn you down when she is well rested?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Richard,
Your protector wiring (which is stronger than the average mans) is very powerful stuff.

Your wife has some equally strong wishful thinking wiring. 

I gaurantee you that taking her on vacation allows her to tell herself that everything is fine. Even more so when you tolerate a sexless vacation. 

-------

Don't think for a moment that I believe any of this is easy or simple. 





richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> As I withdraw, she withdraws. We drift toward a routine where we are only together for chores, or when we vacation, but at home we each do our our own things.
> 
> I do do things apart from her. I have hobbies that sometimes occupy my evenings. I've gone on long trips without her.
> ...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening norajane
in the morning she doesn't want to be woken up before the alarm for work.

I'm often turned down when she is rested - though she will sometime use the excuse of exhaustion. (or any other excuse she can come up with). 


The deep problem here is that my issue is one of pride, not lust. What I want is for her to desire me, and I'm too stubborn to give up. That is not something I can achieve by any sort of pressure.

The particular frustration is that it is pretty clear that I am desirable to other women. 

On thinking about it, if a genie offered to magically transform my wife into someone who desired me, I wouldn't accept the offer - it wouldn't be fair. 

As I write this it is very clear that I want her to be something that she isn't. Since that isn't possible, I need to accept reality as it is. 

I appreciate all the input, but its clear that in a key way *I* am the problem. I could insist on sex (on threat of leaving - however subtly that threat is made), or I could leave and find someone who desires me. 





norajane said:


> So what happens in the morning? Can you touch her and turn her on in the morning when she is well-rested?
> 
> 
> Does she turn you down when she is well rested?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Richard,

Your wife has responsive desire. Totally normal. She doesn't start out feeling any desire at all. 

M2 is exactly like that. Has been for decades. Including when we were younger and were having sex almost every day.

Now - you can believe me or not - that's up to you. But the reasons that never got in our way are remarkably simple:
- M2 taught me how to get her in the mood in a way that feels good for her
- I listened, learned and became fluent in this ignition sequence 
- Mix in some unflinchingly honest communication and total acceptance of those things which are difficult 

That last bit is so very powerful. M2 went through a period of maybe two years during which she maybe had an Orgasm 20% of the time. 

You want to talk about feeling emasculated. Except - I really didn't. I'm not lazy, selfish or incapable. It wasn't really about me. So I didn't make it about me. Every once in a while I would gently ask if I should be doing more or less of anything. And she would say: babe, it isn't you, I would tell you if it was

Lately M2 is closer to a 90% O rate. And as for why that is the case: It's a mystery

Why does that example matter? Because she didn't feel the need to lie to me. She wasn't worried about me, making it about me. 

M2 and I are in synch on a few core beliefs. For instance, we both believe that the opposite of intimacy is deceit. 

NOT indifference, deceit. 

All those little white lies - too tired - have to do paperwork - are a corrosive acid on the foundation of respect in a marriage. 

Some folks think those white lies are the lubricant allowing two strong willed people to avoid grinding their gears to powder. 

But that isn't true. Throw enough of that type lubricant into a marriage and you end up with two people separated by the sludge of deception. 





richardsharpe said:


> Good evening norajane
> in the morning she doesn't want to be woken up before the alarm for work.
> 
> I'm often turned down when she is rested - though she will sometime use the excuse of exhaustion. (or any other excuse she can come up with).
> ...


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

I don't know Richard. The more I read about your situation, the more I think there is more to it than just LD. There is something going on with her, maybe emotionally she is not there anymore - Is this possibility? You say you love her, and everything else is wonderful, yuo don't want to leave just because of the sex - But is it just about sex?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> She is a very intelligent woman, I can't believe that she doesn't understand what is happening.
> 
> This time I know she is aware. She has mentioned a few times how rarely we have had sex recently and how she feels badly about it - just before explaining how tired / busy / distressed, she is at the moment.
> 
> ...


Hi Richard. I can see why you're conflicted. It sounds like she wants to want sex but she just doesn't. That's a normal process of getting older for a lot of people.

I think duty sex get a bad rap though. It's like saying you can force a horse to water and also force it to drink but then you're angry about it not enjoying the water. Really it's a lose-lose proposition for the horse. I hope you guys can find a way to build an intimate connection. If she's willing to try then I'm sure you're willing as well.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening WandaJ
Maybe. There are the usual minor power struggles in a relationship, maybe she sees sex as part of that? We don't disagree on very much though, so its hard to imagine she is using sex that way. 

A couple of years ago she we did have an active sex life and she seemed very happy. Its so strange that it dwindled away. 

Could be age / hormonal. I think not though. 3 years ago when things had been bad for a long time, the suddenly improved completely when I confronted her. (was she acting?) If it was a hormonal issue I wouldn't have expected it to improve suddenly. 

I need to wait until the issues with her parent's deaths are resolved, or I'm sure she will fall back on "I just lost my parents", though in truth she hasn't been very upset by the loss. (they were ~90, healthy until very near death - about as well as things can go).





WandaJ said:


> I don't know Richard. The more I read about your situation, the more I think there is more to it than just LD. There is something going on with her, maybe emotionally she is not there anymore - Is this possibility? You say you love her, and everything else is wonderful, yuo don't want to leave just because of the sex - But is it just about sex?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Your fear of hurting your wife, at your own expense, IS doormat behavior.
> 
> You have taught her that you are okay with her being comfortable while she is single - handedly taking actions that lead to your discomfort.
> 
> And again, the longer you allow it to happen, the harder it is to undo.



Keep in mind some wives - in our discussion - are incapable of being hurt simply because they CAN'T Or WILL NOT. In order to get hurt they have to be vulnerable enough and open enough. 

Someone who comes home and goes to sleep at 830pm is not likely to be hurt.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

she is taking you for granted... unfortunately, the only way you can show her what it means to you is to go heavy... but you need to be prepared to go through with it, if necessary. You might not to want to do this. In that case, accept it and get on with your life. Eventually, you will fall out of love with her (only normal). If she realises what damage she is doing to you, she might change her tune. In that case, prepare yourself for pity sex... sorry to be blunt. But I've been there.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> I need to wait until the issues with her parent's deaths are resolved, or I'm sure she will fall back on "I just lost my parents", though in truth she hasn't been very upset by the loss. (they were ~90, healthy until very near death - about as well as things can go).


Interesting statement.

I'm not getting why it's any easier to lose a parent if they live to a healthy age of 90?


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## NeverAgain12 (Jan 15, 2012)

lenzi said:


> I'm not getting why it's any easier to lose a parent if they live to a healthy age of 90?


I think it's pretty easy to understand even if you haven't lived through it like I did. When you lose a parent early, you (and they, before they die) feel like you were cheated out of experiencing all the stages of life and many important family/life experiences.

My first son was born three weeks before my mother died of cancer at age 53. She saw him twice before losing consciousness and never got to see him grow up, didn't see my brother get married nor experience his two kids. It's tough to have a small child ask about a grandma they will never meet.

So, the sense of loss is acutely different in this situation vs. having experienced all there is in this life. And my situation, while horrible to me, is unfortunately not very uncommon and I've known others with worse situations than mine - and I'd be the first to admit that it was worse for them as they experienced even less and got cheated out of even more.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening lenzi
I'm sure the way people feel about this varies. I lost both parents through very slow declines. Early Alzheimers for one, and very long (7 and 10 years) nursing home stays for both. Watching them die bit by bit was horrible. My father's voice was the same, but the words were meaningless - or worse, sometimes accusatory. 

The quick decline of my wife's parents seemed so much better. There was a sense that they had lived full lives (they were married for almost 70 years!). I wish there was no death, but if there is, then this seemed the best way to go.






lenzi said:


> Interesting statement.
> 
> I'm not getting why it's any easier to lose a parent if they live to a healthy age of 90?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
interestingly our sex life has gone back to the recent good normal. Maybe it really was just stress over the deaths in her family (very understandable).

Life is much happier now. Amazing what a difference it makes.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Richard,

That's great news. 




richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> interestingly our sex life has gone back to the recent good normal. Maybe it really was just stress over the deaths in her family (very understandable).
> 
> Life is much happier now. Amazing what a difference it makes.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Very happy for you richard!

Lets hope it stays that way. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## seahorse (Apr 10, 2010)

The worst part for me has been routine attraction I felt to other women over the years, though I felt none for my own wife. For years I felt really guilty about this. I just never learned how to completely kill off my desire for sexual fulfillment or emotional intimacy. Too bad...

-seahorse




doobie said:


> I do think one of the worst things about being in a sexless marriage is what it does to your personality.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


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## doobie (Apr 15, 2014)

seahorse said:


> The worst part for me has been routine attraction I felt to other women over the years, though I felt none for my own wife. For years I felt really guilty about this. I just never learned how to completely kill off my desire for sexual fulfillment or emotional intimacy. Too bad...
> 
> -seahorse


A strange thing has happened to me over the past 6 weeks or so - although I'm still sexually frustrated and desperate for sex on practically a daily basis, I no longer feel any desire for my H. This has actually made the situation so much easier for me to cope with. For such a long time I felt unattractive and unfeminine and this was really affecting me until I felt myself slipping into depression. I've had a tough life but never been depressed before and I found the depression quite frightening. Now that I no longer feel any desire for my H, I feel much more hopeful for the future. On several occasions recently, when we've been out, men have been showing an interest in me and it makes me feel like a million dollars - I've started to feel sexy and feminine again. My H has assured me that he feels no jealousy when these men show an interest, in fact it seems to have slighly sparked his interest again - it's a shame it's too late.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening doobie
No offense intended, but this is a direct path to an affair. People want, no NEED to feel desired, and the lack of that is terrible. When they don't get that from their partners, but do get it from other people the temptation can become irresistible. 

I wouldn't fault you for acting on that temptation, when your partner is denying you such a basic human need, it is understandable that you would want it elsewhere.

I'm not saying you have done anything at all wrong, you haven't, but I think you will have the opportunity to do so. 




doobie said:


> A strange thing has happened to me over the past 6 weeks or so - although I'm still sexually frustrated and desperate for sex on practically a daily basis, I no longer feel any desire for my H. This has actually made the situation so much easier for me to cope with. For such a long time I felt unattractive and unfeminine and this was really affecting me until I felt myself slipping into depression. I've had a tough life but never been depressed before and I found the depression quite frightening. Now that I no longer feel any desire for my H, I feel much more hopeful for the future. On several occasions recently, when we've been out, men have been showing an interest in me and it makes me feel like a million dollars - I've started to feel sexy and feminine again. My H has assured me that he feels no jealousy when these men show an interest, in fact it seems to have slighly sparked his interest again - it's a shame it's too late.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening doobie
> 
> No offense intended, but this is a direct path to an affair. People want, no NEED to feel desired, and the lack of that is terrible. When they don't get that from their partners, but do get it from other people the temptation can become irresistible.
> 
> ...



If anyone deserves the pain of an affair its Doobie's husband.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
thought I would post an update.

Things have improved dramatically My wife is making a real attempt to have sex more often and to try to go out of her way to do things that I particularly enjoy. It has certainly made me much happier and I think she is much happier as well - possibly because I'm not constantly cranky.

Still, I can tell it takes effort on her part. I hope this revival of our sex life will last this time - but we will see.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Ii hope this will last, Richard. It's a good sign that you both feed on each other's happiness, it is great motivation for both sides. Enjoy and good luck


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## LonelyinLove (Jul 11, 2013)

I like scheduled sex....I anticipate it all day, I'm freshly bathed and the make-up is perfect, and I know to be rested and available.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> thought I would post an update.
> 
> Things have improved dramatically My wife is making a real attempt to have sex more often and to try to go out of her way to do things that I particularly enjoy. It has certainly made me much happier and I think she is much happier as well - possibly because I'm not constantly cranky.
> ...


Richard,

Is she making more of an effort on her own accord or is it because of something you said/did?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
we had another long unpleasant conversation. Not something I want to repeat. 



Fozzy said:


> Richard,
> 
> Is she making more of an effort on her own accord or is it because of something you said/did?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> we had another long unpleasant conversation. Not something I want to repeat.


I understand. This seems to be a common pattern in a lot of our type of relationships. I guess the question becomes: Are you willing to keep repeating if that becomes necessary?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I have stopped... given up... too upsetting!


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