# Hello, new member, don't know where to start....



## MrNobody

Hey, new here, hoping I'm in the right place for this... I put it in general relationship discussion because I don't believe I'm heading for divorce, and I didn't want to put it in the sex in marriage section, because that's only a portion of it.... I'm just going crazy in my own head these days trying to figure out if there's a problem or not.

I apologize in advance for not knowing the abbreviations and such, like I said, I'm new to this and just seeking some perspective from a fairly neutral audience.

My wife and I just celebrated our ten year wedding anniversary. We've been together for 17, lived together for five years before getting married. We have a 6 year old son and a 3 year old daughter. I'm 41, she's 39. It seems like everything stressful in life happens at the same time. When were were first married, we were both relocating, starting new jobs, buying our first house, and getting married all within a two/three month span. More recently, after our daughter was born, we sold that house and bought a new house which we have now been in for two years. We got through them with flying colors. Things seemed to be settled again.

However, I'm feeling like something is missing. It started after the birth of our second child. I noticed that when I would make advances towards her, she started to reject me more often. We never had a a daily, or even weekly sex life or anything prior to kids, It was probably closer to 3 or so times a month, when we felt like it, sometimes more sometimes less, so I guess (?) it wasn't too much of a change, but what the change was.... was that I felt like I was being rejected for the first time. And it started to feel consistent. I eventually asked her.... Why is this happening? It didn't used to be this way. And her response was... "Well, I feel like there are things that I'm frustrated with you over, like making the kids beds, helping to make lunches, helping with the dishes, cleaning the bathrooms, etc... that you're not doing, and it's hard to get in the mood when those things are in my head." I thought "okay, well that's something I could fix/correct". I started doing everything mentioned, and then some, and continue to do them to this day nearly two and a half years later.... I feel like I completely rebuilt my habits over the past two years to lessen her load at home in any way I can. I actually became more satisfied in myself, in being a better husband too. I could see it was having positive affects on things at home, and she was appreciate to a degree, but it didn't solve what I set out to initially change. When I brought it up that "hey, I've been consistently doing what's been asked of me and more for at least six months, how come nothing has changed in that regard?" Her answer became: this is completely normal, our friends don't have sex that much that, this is just the time of our lives, you should do some reading on this, it's completely normal...." I agreed somewhat that having two young children made things very busy, but I was still finding the time and energy to want those things.... So, again, I followed what she was seeing and started reading. Lo and behold, I don't think that reading turned out like she thought it would, because I then realized that it wasn't healthy, what was going on. At least not for me. I'm sure she was fine, because she felt like everything was fine. Then it moved from sex to affection. And all of the sudden, I realized that I just wasn't getting what I needed on an intimacy level beyond sex. I realized, she didn't really even want to hug me that much anymore, she nearly cringed when I would try. I also have noticed her getting immersed in texting and social media (now before anybody asks, yes, I strongly initially thought there may be an affair, despite the fact that my wife has a horrible guilty conscience, she also is one of the kindest and moral people I've ever met.... I know some of you are saying "yeah, yeah....", and believe me, my gut was going crazy trying to figure this out, but after a year of closely watching for any sign of infidelity, I can confidently say that I don't think there is one. I don't think that's the problem here). So then I decided, I'm going to try and romance my wife again... I would surprise her with flowers occasionally, or I would pick up lunch from her favorite restaurant and surprise her with it. On anniversaries and holidays, I would make her very sentimental gifts, paintings, books, etc.... Eventually, I was told "you're trying too hard", you need to let things happen naturally, and when you try this hard it puts pressure on me because I can't return the gifts and romantic attention the way you do....

This eventually led to me pushing the issue further, wanting to talk about it. These talks eventually would lead to a couple of blowups, where she accused me of being the one that changed, and that she is the way she has always been. I've become the needy one, she doesn't know that she has enough attention in her for the kids, and then me, etc... I told her "how can you say you haven't changed? We've had two kids, not to mention the introduction of the iphone into our relationship (in the car, on the couch, times that used to be for conversation) for the past five years, both of those things are major changes, because none of them existed in our relationship five years ago. We've since read the The Five Love Languages together. No surprise, she's acts of service and I'm physical touch. She tells me her love tank is always full. But mine is empty and she doesn't really seem to take it seriously.

We both are frustrated, me with the state of things and her with the fact that I'm frustrated. I feel like I've put in a TON of work both on myself and our relationship over the course of two and a half years to fix a problem that she doesn't think exists, which is a lack of intimacy for us, both physical and IMO, emotional. She insists that she loves me as much as she always has, more even, and that she still finds me attractive (I'm actually in better shape than what I was when were were dating and first married, so if anything, I did the opposite of letting myself go once we got married). Her only thing is that she thinks her libido is just lower, and seems to think it's all just a phase in our marriage.

We're middle aged with two toddlers at home, is it really just "that time in our lives"? Is it true that it's me that's changed, and this is my problem? I'm just kind of at a loss right now, but I do know that I feel pretty down about the state of things. I Love my wife and kids more than anything.


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## DaveinOC

It's almost scary that I feel like you are writing about my life. I too have 2 toddlers, same intimacy frequency. I am exactly at that point. I was 100% sure we wasn't cheating, but after this prolonged for so long, I started having some doubts and did some snooping that I never imagined i would do. I've had a few posts about these things on here. I am confidently at this point that she's not cheating but things are still looking kind of gloomy. I changed significantly over the years to really understand her and things are exactly as you described. 

The worst part for me is that I found out she uses porn occasionally. She works nightshifts so I know her reasoning is valid when she tells me she's always tired but I found out that even some days she comes back in the morning (while I am at work and kids in preschool), she does sometimes spend 15~20 minutes on them before going to sleep. This bothered me to a point that I had to talk to her. 

She finally told me among other things, she might be feeling "sexual aversion". I honestly was thinking here we go again with this bull**** drama garbage, but I did some research and found out this condition in women is not rare. I had the hardest time understanding that she cannot overcome her emotion with power of logical thinking cuz if I were her, I'd convince myself since I love her, I should be more accommodating, but they often can't get themselves to think this way. It was suggested you do marriage/intimacy counseling cuz some people saw significant improvement, some not. 

My wife told me she's working on trying to let go of her resentment and the time frame is indefinite. I told her I will just continue to do things for her and wait for her to be comfortable, but don't know how much more of this I can take..


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## Yeswecan

You sir appear to be doing all the work. Your W needs counseling. She is not giving you the full story. It appears your W is detached emotionally from you. And it appears from no lacking on your part to stay attached. Get her the book His Needs, Her Needs.


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## MrNobody

Thanks for the response, Dave. Glad to know I'm not alone.


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## MrNobody

Yeswecan said:


> You sir appear to be doing all the work. Your W needs counseling. She is not giving you the full story. It appears your W is detached emotionally from you. And it appears from no lacking on your part to stay attached. Get her the book His Needs, Her Needs.


My wife works really hard. She is also an incredible mother and partner to me in most all other things. I do agree we are insanely busy and I do believe she's tired. I'm just not a priority to her right now and I'm not sure if that's normal in this phase or a sign of a problem developing.


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## FeministInPink

@MrNobody, does your W work, or is she a SAHM?


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## MrNobody

FeministInPink said:


> @MrNobody, does your W work, or is she a SAHM?


She works full time. We're both in Monday to Friday career jobs.

She carries her weight and then some. She makes a lot more money than I do, but we work equally hard. I feel like we're 50/50 with child care, taking turns everyday with drop offs, baths, bedtime etc...

In that sense, we are a well oiled machine.


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## Yeswecan

MrNobody said:


> My wife works really hard. She is also an incredible mother and partner to me in most all other things. I do agree we are insanely busy and I do believe she's tired. I'm just not a priority to her right now and I'm not sure if that's normal in this phase or a sign of a problem developing.


Unfortunately that is a big mistake that your W is not holding you as a priority. A lot of marriage with kids prioritize incorrectly do not do well. You should be on the top of the list. As well as your W should be on the top of your list. This makes a happy couple and happy home. Kids follow the lead. Your current situation is a sign of a problem and not a normal phase. 

Your needs are not being met. Even after making major changes to your W requests. Then followed by more excuses. Again, your W in my opinion is not forthcoming with what is going on in her mind.


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## Yeswecan

MrNobody said:


> My wife works really hard. She is also an incredible mother and partner to me in most all other things. I do agree we are insanely busy and I do believe she's tired. I'm just not a priority to her right now and I'm not sure if that's normal in this phase or a sign of a problem developing.


Your W is not an incredible partner. You stated so in the first post. Your W is a provider and mother at this time. Wife she is not.

I ran the same rodeo. I'm a great dad and provider. Really sucked as a husband. I was much like your W. Excuses. Tired. Busy. Stress. My W would say things about our marriage. I had more excuses. I finally figured it out and became the H I was to be and what she wanted. (PS we have two kids as well. Teenagers now but still in the same boat as you when there were small)


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## MrNobody

Yeswecan said:


> Your W is not an incredible partner. You stated so in the first post. Your W is a provider and mother at this time. Wife she is not.
> 
> I ran the same rodeo. I'm a great dad and provider. Really sucked as a husband. I was much like your W. Excuses. Tired. Busy. Stress. My W would say things about our marriage. I had more excuses. I finally figured it out and became the H I was to be and what she wanted. (PS we have two kids as well. Teenagers now but still in the same boat as you when there were small)


My first instinct is to defend her, but I'm the one soliciting advice, so I'm open to any and all viewpoints.


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## MrNobody

@Yeswecan What finally got through to you?


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## Yeswecan

MrNobody said:


> @Yeswecan What finally got through to you?


I did what you have done here. I came to this site. I began reading of the devastation people have with their marriages. For me, after 20 years of blowing off my W(sexually) I realized, from this site, my W could have gone off with another as a result of my not showing affection and filling her needs. There is a recurring theme here, neglect. It is the normal excuse for wandering. Going off with another for their needs is a poor choice however. Some are just predisposed to cheating. But that is another thread all its own. 

Now, I can't say my W never said anything to me. She would say sex was lacking all the time. If my W dropped me like a bad habit as a result of her needs not be met and telling me about it over the years who can I blame but myself? Your W has been given more than a clue of the problem. You have gone on long enough with your W demands then she pulls "you are trying to hard." That my friend is saying to your child, "We'll see" that really means NO. Your W has successfully blown you off once again. There is more to the story here. She needs to communicate the issue. 

And lets be truthful here, what does it really take to provide some sexual relief? Is it really such a big production all the time? No. Hell, sometimes my W will take care of me and expect nothing in return. She is just tired at those times. But well enough in love with me to take care of need. I have done the same for my W. 

I really do think there is more to the issue with your W and she is not talking about it.


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## Yeswecan

MrNobody said:


> My first instinct is to defend her, but I'm the one soliciting advice, so I'm open to any and all viewpoints.


That is a good instinct. However, how do you feel about yourself when after all you have done at your W requests you are still rejected when making advances for sex? I can tell you my W felt ugly. My W would silently cry in the bathroom after I rejected her advances. 

When I reflect back I considered myself awesome. Great provider and dad. Why do any more? I got it covered. I was tired and stressed as a result of that. But it was also an excuse. A crappy one at that. An excuse to not be the H my W wanted. In short, I did not appreciate my W at all. What a utter failure on my part. But, God smiled upon me and I changed my course. I finally came full circle as my W calls it. Life is grand. 

Does your W show you appreciation for the things you do or are you just a rough neck with a paycheck? Do you show your appreciation to your W? I'm betting you do. I see spontaneous flower. Is that really trying to much? Not at all. It is a way to show another you are thinking about them.


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## MrNobody

Yeswecan said:


> I did what you have done here. I came to this site. I began reading of the devastation people have with their marriages. For me, after 20 years of blowing off my W(sexually) I realized, from this site, my W could have gone off with another as a result of my not showing affection and filling her needs. There is a recurring theme here, neglect. It is the normal excuse for wandering. Going off with another for their needs is a poor choice however. Some are just predisposed to cheating. But that is another thread all its own.
> 
> Now, I can't say my W never said anything to me. She would say sex was lacking all the time. If my W dropped me like a bad habit as a result of her needs not be met and telling me about it over the years who can I blame but myself? Your W has been given more than a clue of the problem. You have gone on long enough with your W demands then she pulls "you are trying to hard." That my friend is saying to your child, "We'll see" that really means NO. Your W has successfully blown you off once again. There is more to the story here. She needs to communicate the issue.
> 
> And lets be truthful here, what does it really take to provide some sexual relief? Is it really such a big production all the time? No. Hell, sometimes my W will take care of me and expect nothing in return. She is just tired at those times. But well enough in love with me to take care of need. I have done the same for my W.
> 
> I really do think there is more to the issue with your W and she is not talking about it.


I guess my question is, what ultimately made you face your behavior? Did your wife threaten to leave? Why do you think you were withholding those things from her to begin with? I'm just trying to understand my wife's point of view here.


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## Yeswecan

MrNobody said:


> I guess my question is, what ultimately made you face your behavior? Did your wife threaten to leave? Why do you think you were withholding those things from her to begin with? I'm just trying to understand my wife's point of view here.


Ah...you betcha my W dropped a bomb on me. She had her last straw with my pushing away sex and some anger issues. She said she was done with the marriage if I don't get help. This is how I ended up here. There is a saying. You must be willing to lose the marriage to save it. My W got to that point. I straighted up my act. 

Your W point of view? How does your W view you in the marriage and family? As it stands now you are a room mate. That is not a marriage. How did you two get to the room mate stage? I can assure it is kids. Been there. Once a long time ago you two were eager beavers and having a grand time. That can still happen. Both have to be willing to make the effort and time.


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## MrNobody

Yeswecan said:


> Ah...you betcha my W dropped a bomb on me. She had her last straw with my pushing away sex and some anger issues. She said she was done with the marriage if I don't get help. This is how I ended up here. There is a saying. You must be willing to lose the marriage to save it. My W got to that point. I straighted up my act.
> 
> Your W point of view? How does your W view you in the marriage and family? As it stands now you are a room mate. That is not a marriage. How did you two get to the room mate stage? I can assure it is kids. Been there. Once a long time ago you two were eager beavers and having a grand time. That can still happen. Both have to be willing to make the effort and time.


Thank you for your perspective. Any advice on how to proceed?


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## Yeswecan

Continue to read this site. Others will chime in with their experiences. It takes a lot of work to keep a marriage happy and healthy. That work really does pay big dividends. As such, the work to keep it happy and healthy becomes fun and something you look forward too. If it is chore then it is really is not a marriage. Just another thing on the "to do" the list.


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## Yeswecan

MrNobody said:


> Thank you for your perspective. Any advice on how to proceed?


Communication. A this juncture you need to have a undivided conversation with your W. Advise you simply feel like a room mate or hired help. That is not a marriage. Ask your W point blank, what is it about you(MrNobody) that prevents even the most easiest of days zero affection from your W? At this time you have done everything requested of you and then some. Yet, still rejected. Quite frankly, that hurts self-esteem.


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## JayDee7

You can?t nice guy your way into having her want sex with you. You can?t do more dishes and fold more laundry and suddenly she?ll be hot for you again. You can?t earn it with extra chores. You should do things around the house because they have to be done. Period. 

My advice is to start working out, dress better, take up a sport/hobby outside of the house and go out with your male friends more. You?ll start feeling and looking stronger, acting more confident, 

She?s probably stuck in mommy mode. As your wife she needs to turn that off and turn on wife mode and lover mode when you?re alone with her. 

Sounds like you need counseling.
Hopefully she?s willing and able to change.


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## Herschel

MrNobody said:


> *She makes a lot more money than I do*


Alarm bells going off. How much more, like percentage wise? See, at one point you and your wife were married with no kids and who care who made more or had the chance to cause you were in love and enjoying life. Then you knock her up and she has to hold a baby, then another for 9 months. And then she is making more money AND managing the house. She has lost respect for you. What does she need you for when she feels like she is superior to you in every way. I am not saying it's an overt thing, it's subconscious. She has seen what you bring to the table and it doesn't get her juices flowing.

The only way you can fix this is by becoming more desirable (assuming it can be fixed or she hasn't found someone else). The only way to do that is to show her a) you don't NEED her, b) you can get other women, c) you can make more money d) you are getting into shape and can draw attention and e) you don't need her to be your confidant/best friend/dependent.

She needs to know she isn't so needed and superior to you. That the money she makes more than you isn't that big of a deal cause money ain't everything and you are happy and loving life whether she is in it or not. You have to break away, maybe go do your own thing some nights, focus on making yourself better (especially working out).


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## Herschel

The problem with marital counseling is when one side feels so much more in control and superior, it makes them feel like you are doing anything to keep them around. Another turn-off in my eyes. The only way to get back where you were, again, if possible, is to make her think you could replace her and you are willing to if you don't get what you want.


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## MrNobody

JayDee7 said:


> You can?t nice guy your way into having her want sex with you. You can?t do more dishes and fold more laundry and suddenly she?ll be hot for you again. You can?t earn it with extra chores. You should do things around the house because they have to be done. Period.
> 
> My advice is to start working out, dress better, take up a sport/hobby outside of the house and go out with your male friends more. You?ll start feeling and looking stronger, acting more confident,
> 
> She?s probably stuck in mommy mode. As your wife she needs to turn that off and turn on wife mode and lover mode when you?re alone with her.
> 
> Sounds like you need counseling.
> Hopefully she?s willing and able to change.


I'm familiar with these methods from reading. No More Mr. Nice Guy perhaps? Married Man Sex Life, the 180, etc... I've read about them. As a problem solver by nature, I've been reading this site and others for months, before ever posting.

Every situation is unique, and I don't feel like these necessarily apply to me. Outside friends? Got em. We both do, and see our friends both through hosting and going out regularly. Well, regularly enough, as we're all in the same lot in life, young kids, similar careers, etc... We have always given each other space in that regard. Her friends are my friends and my friends are her friends. It's one of the things that attracted us to each other all those years ago. How social we were, and how we both brought close friends to the table. Now, that can also partially be my downfall here, because I do think she's getting bad advice from some of these friends now who don't like their husbands as much. Some of whom haven't had sex in a year. So it's hard when those are the comparable standards that my wife is hearing.

Hobbies? I practice in a gigging rock band once a week in addition to my regular job, wife enjoys watching me play guitar and sing when we gig. She has a dinner club that she and her friends do once a month. I still drink regularly, not to the point of a problem or anything, but she drinks a little less these days than she used to.

I definitely think she is in mommy mode almost 100% of the time. And that's what I've lost her to, IMO.

I'm just wondering if this will pass, or if this is something I have to buckle up for, for the long haul.


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## MrNobody

Herschel said:


> Alarm bells going off. How much more, like percentage wise? See, at one point you and your wife were married with no kids and who care who made more or had the chance to cause you were in love and enjoying life. Then you knock her up and she has to hold a baby, then another for 9 months. And then she is making more money AND managing the house. She has lost respect for you. What does she need you for when she feels like she is superior to you in every way. I am not saying it's an overt thing, it's subconscious. She has seen what you bring to the table and it doesn't get her juices flowing.
> 
> The only way you can fix this is by becoming more desirable (assuming it can be fixed or she hasn't found someone else). The only way to do that is to show her a) you don't NEED her, b) you can get other women, c) you can make more money d) you are getting into shape and can draw attention and e) you don't need her to be your confidant/best friend/dependent.
> 
> She needs to know she isn't so needed and superior to you. That the money she makes more than you isn't that big of a deal cause money ain't everything and you are happy and loving life whether she is in it or not. You have to break away, maybe go do your own thing some nights, focus on making yourself better (especially working out).


That's not my wife, with the money thing, or maybe it is and I just don't know it (like I said, I'll listen to any and all advice), but I pull my weight in other ways.

I'm a teacher, and during the summers, I keep both kids home with me and do lots of fun stuff with them. The main thing being, we don't ever pay for child support in the summer, and that saves us thousands. Holidays too. She knew what she was signing up for when we met. And when we both started out, neither of us had anything. We grew together. I carry my weight enough to make up for the financial deficit, and we are well off.


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## MrNobody

Would love to hear some female perspective on all of this, as well.


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## DaveinOC

MrNobody said:


> My first instinct is to defend her, but I'm the one soliciting advice, so I'm open to any and all viewpoints.


OP, a word of advice to you because I feel like the way we think are similar in many ways. I am not implying yeswecan was trying to bust your balls (this person gave me some great advice before) or insult your wife or anything, but having only started being on the forum for less than a month, you will find that while some people are extremely helpful, others here will seize every opportunity to conclude with certainty that your wife is having an affair (assuming the worst), or straight up criticize you for whatever you do/don't do, attempting to apply their own story on your situation instead of universally sound one (ex. my SO cheated so your wife must be cheating too). You know your wife better than anyone on here and there are obviously awesome traits about her that you find worth it to improve your relationship instead of throwing it away. what I am saying is you will have to learn to filter things out on here and kind of use people's input as confirmation or venue for different perspective rather than taking them as guidance to your actions. You sound like an intelligent guy so I am sure you understand this already. Just looking out for a fellow community noobie.


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## Tatsuhiko

I would let her see what life is like without your company. Sorry, but "nicing" someone into changing their priorities rarely works. Continue to do your "chores" (sorry you fell for that BS excuse on her part like so many others have, wish you had come here sooner), but start spending some time out of the house once the kids are asleep. Divvy up the time that each of you will be individually watching the kids. When it's your turn, take them out without your wife and do something you and the kids like. "Just giving you some downtime, honey." When it's her turn to watch them, go out on your own to the gym, or watch some sporting event on the big screen at a bar. Or just lock yourself in a room and play your guitar. No need to spend time with her talking or watching TV with her. 

She'll notice eventually. She'll notice because she's never pondered life without you and how horrible it would be. She takes you for granted. When she does notice, tell her that you've given up on the idea of intimacy with her and you're working on yourself for a bit, doing things that you enjoy. That this effort will necessarily put a little bit more distance between the two of you, but that distance has been growing for several years now, so it's no big deal. You're realizing that there's a whole world out there that you've missed, and you're starting to explore it. This will mean less time spent with her, but you plan to be there as her friend and co-parent, when necessary. 

How could she complain about that deal? She didn't like your idea of intimacy, so why should you provide hers?


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## MrNobody

DaveinOC said:


> OP, a word of advice to you because I feel like the way we think are similar in many ways. I am not implying yeswecan was trying to bust your balls (this person gave me some great advice before) or insult your wife or anything, but having only started being on the forum for less than a month, you will find that while some people are extremely helpful, others here will seize every opportunity to conclude with certainty that your wife is having an affair (assuming the worst), or straight up criticize you for whatever you do/don't do, attempting to apply their own story on your situation instead of universally sound one (ex. my SO cheated so your wife must be cheating too). You know your wife better than anyone on here and there are obviously awesome traits about her that you find worth it to improve your relationship instead of throwing it away. what I am saying is you will have to learn to filter things out on here and kind of use people's input as confirmation or venue for different perspective rather than taking them as guidance to your actions. You sound like an intelligent guy so I am sure you understand this already. Just looking out for a fellow community noobie.


Thanks for the reply, Dave. I do not think he was trying to bust balls at all. I appreciated his advice as somebody that was on the other side of what I'm talking about. Like I said, I'm the one soliciting advice.

You guys only hear one side of the story... mine. But at the same time, I'm telling my side as honestly as I can, because really.... It's like lying to your lawyer. What good does me lying to an anonymous audience do me when I'm looking for impartial advice? I'm just trying to tell the story as accurately as I can from my side.

My wife is a good woman. I'm lucky to have her. I just think we're in a rut, and I'm looking to get through this and get on to phase 2, or 3 as it probably is. A marriage is always evolving, I think. I'm trying to roll with the changes, here. I just want reassurance that there's a light at the end of the tunnel.

And if this actually is a problem, I'm trying to stay ahead of it and make changes now if need be... I don't want to be that couple that after the kids leave for college, we're sitting here looking at each other going... "who are you?"


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## MrNobody

Tatsuhiko said:


> I would let her see what life is like without your company. Sorry, but "nicing" someone into changing their priorities rarely works. Continue to do your "chores" (sorry you fell for that BS excuse on her part like so many others have, wish you had come here sooner), but start spending some time out of the house once the kids are asleep. Divvy up the time that each of you will be individually watching the kids. When it's your turn, take them out without your wife and do something you and the kids like. "Just giving you some downtime, honey." When it's her turn to watch them, go out on your own to the gym, or watch some sporting event on the big screen at a bar. Or just lock yourself in a room and play your guitar. No need to spend time with her talking or watching TV with her.
> 
> She'll notice eventually. She'll notice because she's never pondered life without you and how horrible it would be. She takes you for granted. When she does notice, tell her that you've given up on the idea of intimacy with her and you're working on yourself for a bit, doing things that you enjoy. That this effort will necessarily put a little bit more distance between the two of you, but that distance has been growing for several years now, so it's no big deal. You're realizing that there's a whole world out there that you've missed, and you're starting to explore it. This will mean less time spent with her, but you plan to be there as her friend and co-parent, when necessary.
> 
> How could she complain about that deal? She didn't like your idea of intimacy, so why should you provide hers?


Thanks so much for the reply. I do think maybe this is the play here, but like I said... We're already doing all of that to some extent. But I do agree that maybe I've been conforming to her standard a little too much, and it's gotten me nowhere. I don't want to put the distance between us, but I've tried everything else, and so maybe there is something to the 180 that might, at the very least, show her that maybe she's been taking things for granted a bit.


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## FeministInPink

OK, so I think that @Yeswecan has a lot of good advice. I think you need to have a Come to Jesus talk with her.

(It's too soon for the 180, and the way the 180 is being talked about here is sounding manipulative and more like game-playing than anything else.)

Set aside a weekend in the near future where you have nothing else going on. Make fake plans with your friends, or something else, so she doesn't make any other plans--you don't want her mad at you because you made her miss something. Have the kids stay with parents or over at a friend's house for the full weekend. See if you can schedule something like this: An Intensive Marriage Retreat: Private, Confidential, Effective.

Once the kids are gone, sit her down and have the conversation with her. Tell her that your marriage has problems, and that you want to fix them. That you are tired of living of roommates, and that you need physical and emotional intimacy, and that you're not getting it right now. That you want to fix the problems before it is too late. That you are willing to do the work if she is. Tell her that you have scheduled a weekend-long session for the two of you, and invite her to attend with you. (INVITE HER, don't tell her she needs to go. Give her the choice.) If she is smart and cares about your marriage, she will go with you.

If she chooses not to participate, you have your answer. At that point, I would implement the 180. When she asks, WTF is going on, you tell her, I told you our marriage was in trouble and you weren't interested in working with me to fix it. I am now working on me, and preparing for the eventual end of our relationship. If that doesn't kick her in the ass and get her moving, I would start drawing up papers.


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## oldshirt

wow! Reading your posts is kind of like Deja Vu all over again for me too! 

Been there, done that, got the tshirt. 

I'm glad to see that you have read "No More Mr Nice Guy" and Athol Kay's MMSL. Understanding those principles will help even if their execution doesn't produce the exact results that you were hoping for. 

In my case, the thing that brought my wife to the negotiating table was when the MC got in her face and told her that I had a valid divorce plan and a reasonable post-divorce plan in place and that if she wanted to remain married and keep the family under one roof, that she was going to have to wake up and recognize that my interests and needs were reasonable and valid. 

The MC basically said she had the choice of devoting 100% of her time and energies to the kids during her custodial time as a single mother. Or she could recognize my needs and move me up from # 427 on her priority list to something that I could live with. 

Now to be fair and upfront, THIS DID NOT TURN HER ON. This did not make her drop her drawers and crawl all over me with desire in the slightest. She was down right p1$$ed. 

But what it did do was woke her up and lifted her fog that made her think life revolved around her mothering and the kids and that made her think that I was her mommy's aid and assistant child care giver. 

It forced her to realize I was still a virile, adult male and that if she didn't want to lift a finger to take of my needs, that I would get them met elsewhere. 

It did not 'make' her desire me (it made her even madder at me as a matter of fact) but as her priority in life was the home and kids, it made her realize that if I was gone and had 50% custody, that she would be on her own and that the kid's lives would be disrupted and impacted. 

She flinched first and it brought her to the negotiating table. She tucked her tail between her legs and came to the negotiating table and did start to open up about her needs and what she needed from me (other than dishes and laundry etc) 

It was a long process to get to acceptable and things are still far from bliss, but things got to a low level of acceptable. As the MC likened it - I was no longer in the middle of a barren desert, but more of a prairie. That probably was a good analogy. 

My concern with your case however is that even before kids it does not sound like your sexlife was exactly frequent or high-energy. 

The best that is reasonable to hope for is to get 'most' back to the way things were before they went bad. If things weren't that great before it got worse, you may be looking at a pretty lackluster existence even if things do improve somewhat. 

I kind of agree with the other posters that your best bet may to be looking long range and have your ducks in a row to the point that if things never become acceptable in a reasonable amount of time, that you are able to dissolve the marriage and replace her with someone more compatible. 

If you do divorce, the fact she has a higher income and higher earning potential is actually in your favor. Men with SAHMs are at risk of paying spousal support. 

With 50/50 custody and a high earning wife, it is likely you just walk away with half the marital assets and not have to pay anything. If she makes a lot more than you, you may even get spousal support for a period of time. 

Some times the best way to save a marriage is to be ready, willing and able to walk away from it. And then if it can't be saved, you are in a much better position to move on afterwards.


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## Tatsuhiko

I'd disregard any advice in here that urges you to reword the things you've been telling her for years. I have little faith in any kind of marriage retreat. You'll end up with a list of "to do" items that will supposedly cause her to desire you again. We know how it worked out last time. You'll either get nothing, or you'll be told that you're "trying too hard." Your marriage is at a crisis point and you have to take action now. The time for feel-good chit chat is over.


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## oldshirt

Tatsuhiko said:


> The time for feel-good chit chat is over.


Talk and communication are important in the opening salvos. 

Some times things like bad breath or clipping your toenails in bed etc can be a turn off and things like that are easily remedied so it is important to communicate. 

Even the exhaustion of 24/7 child care and housework and balancing life/career/home etc are valid issues to address and work together so that there is time and energy for bonding as a couple. 

But there comes a time when talk reaches a dead end. If after 21/2 years there's no improvement, then you know talk is not the answer. If it goes from, "you don't do dishes," to, "you don't put the dishes in the cupboard the right way after you wash them." Then you know talk is not the answer. 

Attraction and desire and libido are not choices. Therefor they are not negotiable.


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## Tatsuhiko

oldshirt said:


> Talk and communication are important in the opening salvos.


I think the opening salvos occurred years ago. The issue with chores was also resolved then. The way to get honesty at this point is not through the status quo.


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## MrNobody

Tatsuhiko said:


> I think the opening salvos occurred years ago. The issue with chores was also resolved then. The way to get honesty at this point is not through the status quo.


Yes, that is correct. I started reading about all this two years ago, and there have been multiple conversations, and arguments, during those two years since. I do believe my wife is trying to improve. She is trying to show me more affection, the frequency of intimacy has increased with her initiating a little more, and we have found time to watch a show together at least once a week after the kids go to bed.it's been a slow process with lots of bumps in the road, but she's trying. The thing is, I don't want her to have to try, I want her to want to naturally, you know? Sometimes I wonder if I'm really asking too much and whether she's right, that this is me changing and making higher demands than before.... I just don't know and that's why I'm here.


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## farsidejunky

Right now you are trying to push a rope. How is that working for you?

I have been where you are. I took my marriage to the brink of divorce, fully prepared to lose it, if things did not get better. They did, but it wasn't easy...in fact it was one of the hardest things I have ever done. 

I would argue that the time has come to do less rather than more. Stop doing anything special for her in any way. Do not go to her for intimacy, engage her in conversation, no foot rubs or massages...nothing. Be polite, cordial...and distant. If she engages you, respond, but don't elaborate. Do only those things necessary for the kids, not for her. 

Immerse yourself in hobbies that you love. Be gone from the house a couple of nights a week doing things you enjoy. Lift weights. Work out. Be social. 

If she says nothing about this...it is probably time to file. If she complains, that is a perfect opportunity.

"What do you need from me that you are not getting?"

She may or may not see where you are going with this.

"Wife, for the last two years your actions have shown me that I am no longer a priority for you. I accept that, and am now focusing on myself and the kids. Let me know if you want to return to a marriage where we prioritize each other."

If she is anything like my wife, this will likely piss her off. 

"I am not okay with yelling."

Then walk away. Let her stew on it. If she wants to talk more about it, listen to her say her piece, then:

"You know where I stand. Discussing these matters is for a couple who are clearly committed to each other. Let me know when that changes."

Then walk away again.

Lastly, you must learn that even if you lose your wife, you will be okay. None of this will get through to her until she truly feels that you could lose her and be okay. She senses your weakness, and I promise you it turns her off.

This approach isn't easy...but whether you end up divorced or remaining married, you will at least like the person staring back at you in the mirror, and you will be a much better husband for it.


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## farsidejunky

MrNobody said:


> Yes, that is correct. I started reading about all this two years ago, and there have been multiple conversations, and arguments, during those two years since. I do believe my wife is trying to improve. She is trying to show me more affection, the frequency of intimacy has increased with her initiating a little more, and we have found time to watch a show together at least once a week after the kids go to bed.it's been a slow process with lots of bumps in the road, but she's trying. The thing is, I don't want her to have to try, I want her to want to naturally, you know? Sometimes I wonder if I'm really asking too much and whether she's right, that this is me changing and making higher demands than before.... I just don't know and that's why I'm here.


Those who want to find a way.

Those who don't find an excuse. 

What do her actions tell you?


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## MrNobody

farsidejunky said:


> Those who want to find a way.
> 
> Those who don't find an excuse.
> 
> What do her actions tell you?


Her actions have shown me that she is trying but overwhelmed by the stresses of kids and work. My wife is always worrying about somebody else, she is fairly selfless in that regard. It's just that for whatever reason sex and intimacy has fallen down the list of priorities. That doesn't make it right to me, but I do believe that she is overwhelmed sometimes.


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## Yeswecan

MrNobody said:


> Her actions have shown me that she is trying but overwhelmed by the stresses of kids and work. My wife is always worrying about somebody else, she is fairly selfless in that regard. It's just that for whatever reason sex and intimacy has fallen down the list of priorities. That doesn't make it right to me, but I do believe that she is overwhelmed sometimes.


Your W needs to learn to live and let go. This was something I needed to learn in my overwhelmed stressed world of work(worked 2 jobs), kids, bills, upkeep and overall sense I was the entertainer for the week. Honestly, I had to come to reality that I could not handle/fix/carry all. That reality made be relax and become the H my W wanted. 

My W told me one day that when we are on vacation I was different in the sense of more loving, affectionate and sex driven. The reason is for those 7 days away from the rigors of life I was stress and problem free to be who I needed to be. I do my best to be that way everyday as now I have learned to live and let go. I can not control everything.

When you talk with your W express to her that you know she is overwhelmed(my W did this for me and it helped as I was not feeling much appreciated). Point blank tell you W with conviction that you appreciate all she does. Sometimes just a vote of confidence and appreciation goes a long way.


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## Tatsuhiko

MrNobody said:


> The thing is, I don't want her to have to try, I want her to want to naturally, you know?


I know _exactly_ what you mean. BTDT. I told my wife that if I have to give her the script in advance, the things she does don't really count. Unfortunately, often the best way to get the attention you need is to let her feel the loss of you. It is heartening to see that your wife cares enough to work on it. 

Do not let her gaslight you into thinking your requirements are unreasonable. Who cares about what other couples do in terms of intimacy? My wife tried pull this too. She had the gall to try to gaslight me after _years_ of a _completely_ sexless marriage. How insulting it feels when I recall it now. You have your own set of needs, and those needs are not unreasonable. It doesn't matter what other couples do or don't do. It would be different if you were asking to tie her up and spank her twice a day. Acts of service is her love language, and you stepped up to the plate years ago. You didn't get out a flipchart with Gantt diagrams explaining breakdown of hourly chores and statistics on how other couples handle chores. You just did what she asked. That's love. Her limited response is not very loving. 

She almost cringes when you just try to hug her? You need to get to the bottom of this sooner rather than later.


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## Middle of Everything

FeministInPink said:


> OK, so I think that @Yeswecan has a lot of good advice. I think you need to have a Come to Jesus talk with her.
> 
> (It's too soon for the 180, and the way the 180 is being talked about here is sounding manipulative and more like game-playing than anything else.)
> 
> Set aside a weekend in the near future where you have nothing else going on. Make fake plans with your friends, or something else, so she doesn't make any other plans--you don't want her mad at you because you made her miss something. Have the kids stay with parents or over at a friend's house for the full weekend. See if you can schedule something like this: An Intensive Marriage Retreat: Private, Confidential, Effective.
> 
> Once the kids are gone, sit her down and have the conversation with her. Tell her that your marriage has problems, and that you want to fix them. That you are tired of living of roommates, and that you need physical and emotional intimacy, and that you're not getting it right now. That you want to fix the problems before it is too late. That you are willing to do the work if she is. Tell her that you have scheduled a weekend-long session for the two of you, and invite her to attend with you. (INVITE HER, don't tell her she needs to go. Give her the choice.) If she is smart and cares about your marriage, she will go with you.
> 
> If she chooses not to participate, you have your answer. At that point, I would implement the 180. When she asks, WTF is going on, you tell her, I told you our marriage was in trouble and you weren't interested in working with me to fix it. I am now working on me, and preparing for the eventual end of our relationship. If that doesn't kick her in the ass and get her moving, I would start drawing up papers.


Bingo. FiP nailed it here. Asking her to go to the retreat is basically starting the 180. Its the start of the ultimate test. Does she truly love me?


MrNobody said:


> Yes, that is correct. I started reading about all this two years ago, and there have been multiple conversations, and arguments, during those two years since. I do believe my wife is trying to improve. She is trying to show me more affection, the frequency of intimacy has increased with her initiating a little more, and we have found time to watch a show together at least once a week after the kids go to bed.it's been a slow process with lots of bumps in the road, but she's trying. The thing is, I don't want her to have to try, I want her to want to naturally, you know? Sometimes I wonder if I'm really asking too much and whether she's right, that this is me changing and making higher demands than before.... I just don't know and that's why I'm here.


Your kids are 6 and 3, they must go to bed at the latest at what, 8 pm? You have time for A show together ONCE a week?


MrNobody said:


> Her actions have shown me that she is trying but overwhelmed by the stresses of kids and work. My wife is always worrying about somebody else, she is fairly selfless in that regard. It's just that for whatever reason sex and intimacy has fallen down the list of priorities. That doesn't make it right to me, but I do believe that she is overwhelmed sometimes.


Kids at 3 and 6 arent THAT stressfull. "Worrying" about everyone else isnt being selfless. Its being selfish and likely an excuse masking something else.


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## oldshirt

Tatsuhiko said:


> I think the opening salvos occurred years ago. The issue with chores was also resolved then. The way to get honesty at this point is not through the status quo.


Yeah, that is what I was trying to say but just didn't do a very good job of it. 

The time for talk was 2 1/2 years ago. It's past the talking stage now.


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## MrNobody

Tatsuhiko said:


> I know _exactly_ what you mean. BTDT. I told my wife that if I have to give her the script in advance, the things she does don't really count. Unfortunately, often the best way to get the attention you need is to let her feel the loss of you. It is heartening to see that your wife cares enough to work on it.
> 
> Do not let her gaslight you into thinking your requirements are unreasonable. Who cares about what other couples do in terms of intimacy? My wife tried pull this too. She had the gall to try to gaslight me after _years_ of a _completely_ sexless marriage. How insulting it feels when I recall it now. You have your own set of needs, and those needs are not unreasonable. It doesn't matter what other couples do or don't do. It would be different if you were asking to tie her up and spank her twice a day. Acts of service is her love language, and you stepped up to the plate years ago. You didn't get out a flipchart with Gantt diagrams explaining breakdown of hourly chores and statistics on how other couples handle chores. You just did what she asked. That's love. Her limited response is not very loving.
> 
> She almost cringes when you just try to hug her? You need to get to the bottom of this sooner rather than later.


The cringes when hugging part might be an exaggeration, more like "alright, alright, that's enough..." still bad. I've read that moms at this stage in marriage and motherhood are just done with all the neediness of the kids hanging on them all day. Not an excuse still, but I try to always see both sides.


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## farsidejunky

MrNobody said:


> The cringes when hugging part might be an exaggeration, more like "alright, alright, that's enough..." still bad. I've read that moms at this stage in marriage and motherhood are just done with all the neediness of the kids hanging on them all day. Not an excuse still, but I try to always see both sides.


She sees you as needy as well. Needy does not wet panties make.

In essence, you are lining up behind all of her other self-imposed obligations, hoping for the scraps of what is left.  This shows a lack of respect for yourself, and is exactly why she does not respect you.

I know...I know...she SAYS she respects you.

However, her actions speak so loudly that I would not hear a word she says.


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## MrNobody

farsidejunky said:


> She sees you as needy as well. Needy does not wet panties make.
> 
> In essence, you are lining up behind all of her other self-imposed obligations, hoping for the scraps of what is left. This shows a lack of respect for yourself, and is exactly why she does not respect you.
> 
> I know...I know...she SAYS she respects you.
> 
> However, her actions speak so loudly that I would not hear a word she says.


Yeah, I believe this is probably true.


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## MrNobody

If that is ultimately the case, I've now dug this hole, now what?


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## farsidejunky

MrNobody said:


> If that is ultimately the case, I've now dug this hole, now what?


Go back to my previous post about doing less.

Until you show her through actions that you love and respect yourself too much to continue as is, nothing changes. Even this is no guarantee to save your marriage, but this is the only way you come out of this emotionally healthy.


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## farsidejunky

@mem2020


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## Malaise

MrNobody said:


> Her actions have shown me that she is trying but overwhelmed by the stresses of kids and work. *My wife is always worrying about somebody else, she is fairly selfless in that regard*. It's just that for whatever reason sex and intimacy has fallen down the list of priorities. That doesn't make it right to me, but I do believe that she is overwhelmed sometimes.


Evidently that doesn't include you or the marriage. And it won't unless she knows how much trouble is lurking.


----------



## FeministInPink

MrNobody said:


> The cringes when hugging part might be an exaggeration, more like "alright, alright, that's enough..." still bad. I've read that moms at this stage in marriage and motherhood are just done with all the neediness of the kids hanging on them all day. Not an excuse still, but I try to always see both sides.


This was my initial thought, if she was a SAHM, she's probably just overwhelmed by touch, and needs to NOT be touched.

But she's not. She works, so she's not home all day with the kids.


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## Yeswecan

MrNobody said:


> The cringes when hugging part might be an exaggeration, more like "alright, alright, that's enough..." still bad. I've read that moms at this stage in marriage and motherhood are just done with all the neediness of the kids hanging on them all day. Not an excuse still, but I try to always see both sides.


My W got that way sometimes when our girls were small. "Someone always hanging on me." she would say. She gets that way with our three little dogs every now and then. BTW, my W is a SAHM. 

But again, speak with your W about this and the other things brought up in this thread. Let her know her responses are pushing you away and let, for a lack of a better word, unappreciated(loved) or simply just another thing to look after. If that is the case, what can be done to rectify that feeling. I know you have answered the call for getting more hands on with kids, house and chores but to no avail. There is more then that makes your W react this way. What is it?


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## MEM2020

MrN,
A few general observations from reading your posts. You have created a badly broken power dynamic. AND you aren’t terribly good at getting your wife hot. 

The power dynamic RESET is relatively easy to define. It means that you consciously choose what you are and are not willing to do for her - in a fair and constructive manner. And you do so independent of outcome. Meaning: You focus on the kids and yourself and if she chooses to leave you over that - then clearly in her mind you were simply a co-parent not a life partner. 

This merely enables you to do what’s needed accepting that she might leave you and if she does - that is ok. 

Part two of this is her actual desire for you - which is low because you are:
1. Too verbal and not sufficiently physical - wrestle more - talk less
2. Too accommodating - most women want some edge - playful edge is fine as long as it has some bite to it
3. Not playful enough - watch me here: 

Mrs. N asks you to do some task and you say: The average husband only performs that task 1.7 times per week, and I am way past quota. Wish I could help you - just that I can’t be making all the other lads look bad. 

All in a light tone with a smile. But then you actually do not do what she asked. 

This isn’t all that hard, you just don’t want to do it. You dislike having conflict with her because it feels wrong. Thing is - done right - she WILL love you more. 









MrNobody said:


> The cringes when hugging part might be an exaggeration, more like "alright, alright, that's enough..." still bad. I've read that moms at this stage in marriage and motherhood are just done with all the neediness of the kids hanging on them all day. Not an excuse still, but I try to always see both sides.


----------



## MEM2020

MrN,
A few general observations from reading your posts. You have created a badly broken power dynamic. AND you aren’t terribly good at getting your wife hot. 

The power dynamic RESET is relatively easy to define. It means that you consciously choose what you are and are not willing to do for her - in a fair and constructive manner. And you do so independent of outcome. Meaning: You focus on the kids and yourself and if she chooses to leave you over that - then clearly in her mind you were simply a co-parent not a life partner. 

This merely enables you to do what’s needed accepting that she might leave you and if she does - that is ok. 

Part two of this is her actual desire for you - which is low because you are:
1. Too verbal and not sufficiently physical - wrestle more - talk less
2. Too accommodating - most women want some edge - playful edge is fine as long as it has some bite to it
3. Not playful enough - watch me here: 

Mrs. N asks you to do some task and you say: The average husband only performs that task 1.7 times per week, and I am way past quota. Wish I could help you - just that I can’t be making all the other lads look bad. 

All in a light tone with a smile. But then you actually do not do what she asked. 

This isn’t all that hard, you just don’t want to do it. You dislike having conflict with her because it feels wrong. Thing is - done right - she WILL love you more. 









MrNobody said:


> The cringes when hugging part might be an exaggeration, more like "alright, alright, that's enough..." still bad. I've read that moms at this stage in marriage and motherhood are just done with all the neediness of the kids hanging on them all day. Not an excuse still, but I try to always see both sides.


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## MrNobody

Well, at this point, it shouldn't be hard to try because I'm really starting to feel detached. Some days things seem fine, others I just wake up mad. Indifference comes and goes. I just need to find a balance of maintaining a good home life for my kids. I'm tired of trying for her. It's a real kick in the gut when you work so hard on something for so long, and it's met with the same old same old. I do feel unappreciated.


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## MrNobody

Let me ask you this... let's say I go the route you say.... what happens when she is trying? Like when she is trying to show affection or initiate intimacy? To turn her down feels like playing games.

Because like I said, she has been trying. Usually about every two weeks she'll initiate something. It's feeling like a to do list thing still, despite the fact I've told her that duty sex isn't going to work for me, and she's been sincerely trying to not make it feel that way.


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## Middle of Everything

MrNobody said:


> Let me ask you this... let's say I go the route you say.... what happens when she is trying? Like when she is trying to show affection or initiate intimacy? To turn her down feels like playing games.
> 
> Because like I said, she has been trying. Usually about every two weeks she'll initiate something. It's feeling like a to do list thing still, despite the fact I've told her that duty sex isn't going to work for me, and she's been sincerely trying to not make it feel that way.


Then go with it. Every two weeks sounds like a start, especially with the woeful frequency you guys normally have.

In between those two weeks? When you feel like it and the mood strikes, take her and **** her. While you dont want duty sex, she doesnt either. Most women want to feel so hot that their husband has to have them. That they just have to take her and ravage her. Trust me, Ive been there with the damn who initiated last or who initiates most game. NO ONE wins that game.


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## MrNobody

Middle of Everything said:


> Then go with it. Every two weeks sounds like a start, especially with the woeful frequency you guys normally have.
> 
> In between those two weeks? When you feel like it and the mood strikes, take her and **** her. While you dont want duty sex, she doesnt either. Most women want to feel so hot that their husband has to have them. That they just have to take her and ravage her. Trust me, Ive been there with the damn who initiated last or who initiates most game. NO ONE wins that game.


I'm not sure that applies to my situation or my wife. If it was just that easy we wouldn't have the problem to begin with.


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## sandcastle

MrNobody said:


> Let me ask you this... let's say I go the route you say.... what happens when she is trying? Like when she is trying to show affection or initiate intimacy? To turn her down feels like playing games.
> 
> Because like I said, she has been trying. Usually about every two weeks she'll initiate something. It's feeling like a to do list thing still, despite the fact I've told her that duty sex isn't going to work for me, and she's been sincerely trying to not make it feel that way.



I'm going to assume- my bad- that she was hot and WANTING you sexually leading up to the wedding and kids- darn those pesky sexual buzzkills- 

What happened?


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## MrNobody

sandcastle said:


> I'm going to assume- my bad- that she was hot and WANTING you sexually leading up to the wedding and kids- darn those pesky sexual buzzkills-
> 
> What happened?


She did. That's what I'm trying to figure out


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## MrNobody

From my reading, both here and elsewhere, my problem is not uncommon, and it seems pretty common at this age and when kids are involved... is that untrue?


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## MrNobody

To some degree, the suggestion to take her and **** her whenever the mood strikes sort of seems like some macho bs that doesn't really apply. Our relationship has never really been built on that. We've been together 17 years and been active during all 17 of those years.... even during ad after pregnancies. Things are a little down right now, but other than after birth of children a month has never lapsed.... I'm just trying to get some spark back.

And I mean that with all due respect, I appreciate and consider and appreciate any and all advice.


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## farsidejunky

Say yes if you want to, however...

If there is any of the following, stop immediately and walk away, even if it means you are in mid stroke.

*"Hurry up."
*Putting ridiculous conditions on the experience before hand, such as missionary only, time limits, etc.
*Starfish sex, eg. laying there and waiting for you to finish
*Bad attitude

Continuing or pursuing sex in in these scenarios will erode her respect for you even further. 

The idea is you want sex to be something you do with her, not to her (credit @MEM2020 for this one). BTW, the reason I paged him here is because he was a huge help in restoring my relationship. I would carefully consider whatever he has to tell you.


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## sandcastle

Stop doing buggie things that she KNOWS are designed to have sex.

Women hate men that bug.
Does she want you to give YOUR children a bath, bedtime story or barbecue the steak?

Yep. That is a MAN and a husband, partner and a father.

What made you sexy and hot before Your babies ?
Go be that sexy, hot man.
Just take her tonight. In a good way.
Quit making sex the issue.


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## farsidejunky

MrNobody said:


> To some degree, the suggestion to take her and **** her whenever the mood strikes sort of seems like some macho bs that doesn't really apply. Our relationship has never really been built on that. We've been together 17 years and been active during all 17 of those years.... even during ad after pregnancies. Things are a little down right now, but other than after birth of children a month has never lapsed.... I'm just trying to get some spark back.
> 
> And I mean that with all due respect, I appreciate and consider and appreciate any and all advice.


I once thought like you. It almost feels... disrespectful...to think of your wife that way, correct? It sounds like machismo bull****, but there is some physiological reasoning behind it as well. 

Read up in responsive desire. It will explain it.

You need to untrain your brain. My wife is never hotter is the sack than when I take her. 

Now, as for this situation not being so bad...didn't you say she cringes at your touch? That is not small...in any way.


----------



## toblerone

MrNobody said:


> To some degree, the suggestion to take her and **** her whenever the mood strikes sort of seems like some macho bs that doesn't really apply.


You might really like the results. She might too.

As long as you stop if she says 'no' what's the hurt in trying?

Here, let me flip it around: what is wrong with your wife that you haven't thought of just going to town and railing the **** out of her out of nowhere?


----------



## MrNobody

toblerone said:


> You might really like the results. She might too.
> 
> As long as you stop if she says 'no' what's the hurt in trying?
> 
> Here, let me flip it around: what is wrong with your wife that you haven't thought of just going to town and railing the **** out of her out of nowhere?


I think about it all the time. She's not receptive. Not tonight, I'm tired, we just had sex last week, etc....


----------



## sandcastle

That is because she has a chance to give excuses.
Far different when you just come up behind and just take her because she is sexy and beautiful and and and.

You did it before you got married.

No discussion- she is beautiful, sexy, and you want her.


----------



## farsidejunky

MrNobody said:


> I think about it all the time. She's not receptive. Not tonight, I'm tired, we just had sex last week, etc....


Neither one of you are there right now.

I thought I could just take my wife early in our reset.

She actually said something like "ew, no". 

Lay the groundwork first.


----------



## Yeswecan

MrNobody said:


> Well, at this point, it shouldn't be hard to try because I'm really starting to feel detached. Some days things seem fine, others I just wake up mad. Indifference comes and goes. I just need to find a balance of maintaining a good home life for my kids. I'm tired of trying for her. It's a real kick in the gut when you work so hard on something for so long, and it's met with the same old same old. *I do feel unappreciated.*


You will see in my previous posts the word "appreciated." Not a very significant word until one feels unappreciated and would like to have a show of appreciation. Let me ask, and I think I said this before, have you told your W you appreciate her and why? If not, why not? If yes, was it reciprocated? When one continues to work and do without any appreciation it gets frustrating and at times, lonely. 

What do either of you do to show appreciation for what each does daily?


----------



## MrNobody

farsidejunky said:


> Neither one of you are there right now.
> 
> I thought I could just take my wife early in our reset.
> 
> She actually said something like "ew, no".
> 
> Lay the groundwork first.


If you could give a suggestion for starting from scratch, let's say today is day one and we're at ground zero, how would you proceed?


----------



## MrNobody

Yeswecan said:


> You will see in my previous posts the word "appreciated." Not a very significant word until one feels unappreciated and would like to have a show of appreciation. Let me ask, and I think I said this before, have you told your W you appreciate her and why? If not, why not? If yes, was it reciprocated? When one continues to work and do without any appreciation it gets frustrating and at times, lonely.
> 
> What do either of you do to show appreciation for what each does daily?


In the verbal sense, I'm appreciated. And likewise, I tell her I appreciate her all the time. Last week I bought fall flowers from me and the kids and wrote a note that I know she's stressed but her hard work is noticed and appreciated by me and the kids.


----------



## Yeswecan

MrNobody said:


> Let me ask you this... let's say I go the route you say.... what happens when she is trying? Like when she is trying to show affection or initiate intimacy? To turn her down feels like playing games.
> 
> Because like I said, she has been trying. Usually about every two weeks she'll initiate something. It's feeling like a to do list thing still, despite the fact I've told her that duty sex isn't going to work for me, and she's been sincerely trying to not make it feel that way.


Your W is giving an effort. That is a good news. Turn her down when she initiates? Of what good would that do? You got to work with what you have. Turn her down is not encouraging your W to initiate more. I would venture praise after and even days later with a note/text of what an enjoyable time and looking forward to the next.


----------



## MrNobody

Yeswecan said:


> Your W is giving an effort. That is a good news. Turn her down when she initiates? Of what good would that do? You got to work with what you have. Turn her down is not encouraging your W to initiate more. I would venture praise after and even days later with a note/text of what an enjoyable time and looking forward to the next.


And that pretty much sums up exactly where I am right now, and have been for the past two months or so.


----------



## Yeswecan

MrNobody said:


> From my reading, both here and elsewhere, my problem is not uncommon, and it seems pretty common at this age and when kids are involved... is that untrue?


Not uncommon. When a kid comes some go into max mommy/daddy roles and forget the rest.


----------



## farsidejunky

Before I get into this, are you truly prepared to lose your marriage over this? If not, don't even bother. Never...ever...ever play brinkmanship unless you are willing to go over the brink.

If you are...start here.



farsidejunky said:


> Right now you are trying to push a rope. How is that working for you?
> 
> I have been where you are. I took my marriage to the brink of divorce, fully prepared to lose it, if things did not get better. They did, but it wasn't easy...in fact it was one of the hardest things I have ever done.
> 
> I would argue that the time has come to do less rather than more. Stop doing anything special for her in any way. Do not go to her for intimacy, engage her in conversation, no foot rubs or massages...nothing. Be polite, cordial...and distant. If she engages you, respond, but don't elaborate. Do only those things necessary for the kids, not for her.
> 
> Immerse yourself in hobbies that you love. Be gone from the house a couple of nights a week doing things you enjoy. Lift weights. Work out. Be social.
> 
> If she says nothing about this...it is probably time to file. If she complains, that is a perfect opportunity.
> 
> "What do you need from me that you are not getting?"
> 
> She may or may not see where you are going with this.
> 
> "Wife, for the last two years your actions have shown me that I am no longer a priority for you. I accept that, and am now focusing on myself and the kids. Let me know if you want to return to a marriage where we prioritize each other."
> 
> If she is anything like my wife, this will likely piss her off.
> 
> "I am not okay with yelling."
> 
> Then walk away. Let her stew on it. If she wants to talk more about it, listen to her say her piece, then:
> 
> "You know where I stand. Discussing these matters is for a couple who are clearly committed to each other. Let me know when that changes."
> 
> Then walk away again.
> 
> Lastly, you must learn that even if you lose your wife, you will be okay. None of this will get through to her until she truly feels that you could lose her and be okay. She senses your weakness, and I promise you it turns her off.
> 
> This approach isn't easy...but whether you end up divorced or remaining married, you will at least like the person staring back at you in the mirror, and you will be a much better husband for it.


Tonight, go do something you want to do. Work out, go see a movie, something just by yourself. Tell her what you are going to do in a polite manner.

"Wife, I am going to do x tonight. I will be back later."

Then go. Don't answer your phone if she calls. Enjoy yourself. Find yourself again.

My outlet for this was and still is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Even today, when my wife gets distant, I increase my nights of BJJ from 2 to 4 in the week. If she wants more from me, then she can do more for me. It really is that simple.

Do me a favor. List things that you think you do specifically for your wife. Then, imagine if she were to pass away, which of those things you would no longer do because she was gone.

Those are the things you stop doing. Do not initiate conversation with her. Keep your responses to her conversation starters short. Don't elaborate.

When she says you seem distant, shrug your shoulders and say you are giving her space because she clearly seems to need it. If she is persistent about it:

"What do you need from me that you are not getting?"

Refer to the quoted post above.


----------



## sandcastle

Your woman is a sexual being.

She actually likes SEX.


----------



## MrNobody

farsidejunky said:


> Before I get into this, are you truly prepared to lose your marriage over this? If not, don't even bother. Never...ever...ever play brinkmanship unless you are willing to go over the brink.
> 
> If you are...start here.
> 
> 
> 
> Tonight, go do something you want to do. Work out, go see a movie, something just by yourself. Tell her what you are going to do in a polite manner.
> 
> "Wife, I am going to do x tonight. I will be back later."
> 
> Then go. Don't answer your phone if she calls. Enjoy yourself. Find yourself again.
> 
> My outlet for this was and still is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Even today, when my wife gets distant, I increase my nights of BJJ from 2 to 4 in the week. If she wants more from me, then she can do more for me. It really is that simple.
> 
> Do me a favor. List things that you think you do specifically for your wife. Then, imagine if she were to pass away, which of those things you would no longer do because she was gone.
> 
> Those are the things you stop doing. Do not initiate conversation with her. Keep your responses to her conversation starters short. Don't elaborate.
> 
> When she says you seem distant, shrug your shoulders and say you are giving her space because she clearly seems to need it. If she is persistent about it:
> 
> "What do you need from me that you are not getting?"
> 
> Refer to the quoted post above.


I appreciate the well thought out response, but I have to say that honestly I am not ready to lose my marriage over this. Not that I may not ever reach that point, I'm just not there now. Not even close, really.


----------



## MrNobody

sandcastle said:


> Your woman is a sexual being.
> 
> She actually likes SEX.


That is what she tells me when we've talked about it in the past. Her actions say she likes it one or two times a month when the conditions are right for her.


----------



## Middle of Everything

sandcastle said:


> Your woman is a sexual being.
> 
> She actually likes SEX.


True.

But one of the scariest possibilities that I learned on TAM is that she likes sex and wants sex, but maybe just not with you.


----------



## MrNobody

Middle of Everything said:


> True.
> 
> But one of the scariest possibilities that I learned on TAM is that she likes sex and wants sex, but maybe just not with you.


And I have brought that up in arguments, that it boils down to two things: she either doesn't want sex or she doesn't want it with me. She swears up and down and every which way that neither are true... that she loves me more than ever, that she's still attracted to me, that she's never given me any reason in 17 years to question her faithfulness which is true....

Yet here we are.


----------



## sandcastle

But why?

The affair partner
1) has no involvement with anything except making her feel sexy and wanted and the sex is new and hot.

This is not reality to maintain BUT it is possible to engender and nuture the primal attraction in a marriage.

In business- nothing is stagnant and you have to adapt and keep up with someone who is smarter than you. If you don't adapt- you are toast.

It takes effort .


----------



## MrNobody

sandcastle said:


> But why?
> 
> The affair partner
> 1) has no involvement with anything except making her feel sexy and wanted and the sex is new and hot.
> 
> This is not reality to maintain BUT it is possible to engender and nuture the primal attraction in a marriage.
> 
> In business- nothing is stagnant and you have to adapt and keep up with someone who is smarter than you. If you don't adapt- you are toast.
> 
> It takes effort .


And I'm putting in the effort, believe me. But like sex, it takes two to tango.


----------



## farsidejunky

MrNobody said:


> I appreciate the well thought out response, but I have to say that honestly I am not ready to lose my marriage over this. Not that I may not ever reach that point, I'm just not there now. Not even close, really.


Then I would bet a substantial sum of money that you will still be in this same situation a year from now.

It is impossible to steal second base without being willing to remove your foot from first.

Nothing...and I mean NOTHING changed until I was willing to walk. 

Good luck, brother.


----------



## MrNobody

farsidejunky said:


> Then I would bet a substantial sum of money that you will still be in this same situation a year from now.
> 
> It is impossible to steal second base without being willing to remove your foot from first.
> 
> Nothing...and I mean NOTHING changed until I was willing to walk.
> 
> Good luck, brother.


I truly do appreciate it. It feels like a lot to throw away right now. I had a single mom and no dad in the picture growing up. My eventual stepfather was awful... I could never leave my children to a similar fate, especially when you add in that I do love my wife very much, and I believe that she loves me. Marriage is work, and this is our first rough patch in ten years of it. Sex is important to me, but is ultimately still a small part of the overall picture.


----------



## sandcastle

You absolutely Can seduce your wife.


----------



## MrNobody

sandcastle said:


> You absolutely Can seduce your wife.


I've been trying. It's a slow burn but there have been small breakthroughs here and there, and then I **** it up the first time she rejects me by getting pissed and sulking/arguing over the rejection, and then I take two steps back. It's been a vicious cycle but I'm still working at it.


----------



## Yeswecan

MrNobody said:


> I've been trying. It's a slow burn but there have been small breakthroughs here and there, and then I **** it up the first time she rejects me by getting pissed and sulking/arguing over the rejection, and then I take two steps back. It's been a vivious cycle but I'm still working at it.


Breakthrough is a positive. Nothing in response from you W is not. So that is a good thing you have some small victories. However, you to win the war(as it where). 

I'm still in belief there is more to your W reasoning to aversion to sex she is not communicating/sharing with you.


----------



## MrNobody

Yeswecan said:


> Breakthrough is a positive. Nothing in response from you W is not. So that is a good thing you have some small victories. However, you to win the war(as it where).
> 
> I'm still in belief there is more to your W reasoning to aversion to sex she is not communicating/sharing with you.


Perhaps, but how can I ever get that information if she swears there's not?


----------



## toblerone

You can snoop.


----------



## Yeswecan

MrNobody said:


> Perhaps, but how can I ever get that information if she swears there's not?


If there is no other information in your W head concerning the rationing of sex what is the reason for the rationing of sex? If your W simply does not need or desire sex more that once every 2 weeks you may have to accept and work with it. 

It is obvious you are not throwing in the towel and want to work on this. At this juncture the small victories maybe the best it will get for a while.


----------



## MrNobody

Yeswecan said:


> If there is no other information in your W head concerning the rationing of sex what is the reason for the rationing of sex? If your W simply does not need or desire sex more that once every 2 weeks you may have to accept and work with it.
> 
> It is obvious you are not throwing in the towel and want to work on this. At this juncture the small victories maybe the best it will get for a while.


That's what I'm doing. Dealing with the frequency, and taking those opportunities and trying to make them as enjoyable as possible for both of us, in hopes that I can jump start her libido a bit.


----------



## Yeswecan

MrNobody said:


> That's what I'm doing. Dealing with the frequency, and taking those opportunities and trying to make them as enjoyable as possible for both of us, in hopes that I can jump start her libido a bit.


I'm thinking the best course of action. Thankfully there is some action! 

Continue to date and find time to spend together(alone) at least 20 hours a week. It is tough but be creative as possible. Kids do grow and get self-sufficient. Your W time and yours will not be taken up so much as a result.


----------



## FeministInPink

Yeswecan said:


> I'm thinking the best course of action. Thankfully there is some action!
> 
> Continue to date and find time to spend together(alone) at least 20 hours a week. It is tough but be creative as possible. Kids do grow and get self-sufficient. Your W time and yours will not be taken up so much as a result.


THIS. A minimum number of hours together, focused on each other and nothing else is essential in maintaining intimacy in a LTR. It's really difficult to do when you both work full-time and have little kids. But you both need to make your relationship a priority now if you want to keep it. Not just a priority now, but always. This is easy to forget when you're parenting young children.


----------



## MrNobody

FeministInPink said:


> THIS. A minimum number of hours together, focused on each other and nothing else is essential in maintaining intimacy in a LTR. It's really difficult to do when you both work full-time and have little kids. But you both need to make your relationship a priority now if you want to keep it. Not just a priority now, but always. This is easy to forget when you're parenting young children.


This weekend she has a hair appountment in the morning, and I told her to go ahead and get a pedicure after... I told her I'd take the kids out through the afternoon and just to relax. We already have a bday party for the kids to attend on Sunday, but after like 8 social events in the past nine days I said "enough" we're taking it easy this weekend. I offered to make dinner but she said let's order. So I said let's make it a late dinner then, after kids are in bed, then do a movie. She said that sounds nice so I guess we'll see what happens.


----------



## Yeswecan

MrNobody said:


> This weekend she has a hair appountment in the morning, and I told her to go ahead and get a pedicure after... I told her I'd take the kids out through the afternoon and just to relax. We already have a bday party for the kids to attend on Sunday, but after like 8 social events in the past nine days I said "enough" we're taking it easy this weekend. I offered to make dinner but she said let's order. So I said let's make it a late dinner then, after kids are in bed, then do a movie. She said that sounds nice so I guess we'll see what happens.


Bingo man. Make it a date. You both did a back and forth to an agreement that sounds like not only you but your W is looking forward to. You may get lucky. You may not. Either way, enjoy whatever takes place. 

BTW, what you described sounds exactly like an evening at my house. Sans kids of course. Ours are grown and do their own thing all be it they still live under our roof(community college and working). But, we are free to do what we like without concerning of children. That is a plus. One day you will get there as well. It is odd. Like a new lease on living again. 

As a side note, my W likes to snuggle. And it is as described. Sometimes it turns into a fuggle if you get my drift. So snuggle. Maybe it will turn into a fuggle.


----------



## MEM2020

This is a topic where words are less useful than normal. 

No one is suggesting you force your wife - prison is not a fun place to end up. 

You are however beginning to post in a rather ego protective way. Asking for reassurance that this is ‘normal’. That is ergo protective. 

You open with how unhappy you are. And then retreat into: well isn’t this kind of normal? 

You tell your wife you are unhappy with how she treats you -and turn round and chase her harder. 

This type of contradictory behavior makes for a low sex outcome. And worse a low desire marriage. 





MrNobody said:


> To some degree, the suggestion to take her and **** her whenever the mood strikes sort of seems like some macho bs that doesn't really apply. Our relationship has never really been built on that. We've been together 17 years and been active during all 17 of those years.... even during ad after pregnancies. Things are a little down right now, but other than after birth of children a month has never lapsed.... I'm just trying to get some spark back.
> 
> And I mean that with all due respect, I appreciate and consider and appreciate any and all advice.


----------



## farsidejunky

MEM2020 said:


> This is a topic where words are less useful than normal.
> 
> No one is suggesting you force your wife - prison is not a fun place to end up.
> 
> You are however beginning to post in a rather ego protective way. Asking for reassurance that this is ‘normal’. That is ergo protective.
> 
> You open with how unhappy you are. And then retreat into: well isn’t this kind of normal?
> 
> You tell your wife you are unhappy with how she treats you -and turn round and chase her harder.
> 
> This type of contradictory behavior makes for a low sex outcome. And worse a low desire marriage.


QFT.


----------



## MrNobody

MEM2020 said:


> This is a topic where words are less useful than normal.
> 
> No one is suggesting you force your wife - prison is not a fun place to end up.
> 
> You are however beginning to post in a rather ego protective way. Asking for reassurance that this is ‘normal’. That is ergo protective.
> 
> You open with how unhappy you are. And then retreat into: well isn’t this kind of normal?
> 
> You tell your wife you are unhappy with how she treats you -and turn round and chase her harder.
> 
> This type of contradictory behavior makes for a low sex outcome. And worse a low desire marriage.


So what can I do that doesn't involve threatening divorce?


----------



## MrNobody

There has to be a middle ground between all or nothing.


----------



## toblerone

Some of the posters are kind of giving you a framework but not actually telling you exactly what you need to do (because that varies person to person). I think that one or two can recommend a book or two about it.


----------



## FeministInPink

This is a good one: 

The Sex-Starved Marriage: Boosting Your Marriage Libido

If you click on this link, the page has a lot of other similar books listed, as well.


----------



## farsidejunky

MrNobody said:


> So what can I do that doesn't involve threatening divorce?


Please show me one example of me suggesting you should threaten divorce.

You will find that course of action to be deliberately absent for any advice I've provided you.


----------



## MEM2020

Loosely speaking there are three points on the marital power dynamic. There is no right or wrong to it. It just is. 

From highest to lowest they are as follows:

1. I am willing to divorce you if you aren’t doing what I want, and comfortable saying so.
2. I am not willing to divorce you, but I will do what I need to take care of myself and that includes doing things that I believe are fair, that absolutely align with the golden rule, EVEN IF THAT MEANS YOU MAY DIVORCE ME.
3. I am not willing to rock the boat because the idea of divorce is so totally terrifying. This means that - even if severely neglected I will just bite the pillow. 


Me - I am at (2), always have been, probably always will be. I am good with that. I think M2 is also at (2) with me. 

You are doing the exact same thing as hundreds of nice guys before you. Which is this. You are pretending that your ONLY options are (1) or (3). 

And to be clear I don’t think Far threatened to divorce F2. I think he just depriortized her and when she aggressively complained he shrugged and told her she could either treat him better or see him very little. That is a perfect example of (2). 






MrNobody said:


> So what can I do that doesn't involve threatening divorce?


----------



## MrNobody

farsidejunky said:


> Please show me one example of me suggesting you should threaten divorce.
> 
> You will find that course of action to be deliberately absent for any advice I've provided you.


I did not mean that insensitively, but I just equate being willing to lose/leave everything as meaning the end of the marriage i.e. divorce.


----------



## MrNobody

MEM2020 said:


> Loosely speaking there are three points on the marital power dynamic. There is no right or wrong to it. It just is.
> 
> From highest to lowest they are as follows:
> 
> 1. I am willing to divorce you if you aren’t doing what I want, and comfortable saying so.
> 2. I am not willing to divorce you, but I will do what I need to take care of myself and that includes doing things that I believe are fair, that absolutely align with the golden rule, EVEN IF THAT MEANS YOU MAY DIVORCE ME.
> 3. I am not willing to rock the boat because the idea of divorce is so totally terrifying. This means that - even if severely neglected I will just bite the pillow.
> 
> 
> Me - I am at (2), always have been, probably always will be. I am good with that. I think M2 is also at (2) with me.
> 
> You are doing the exact same thing as hundreds of nice guys before you. Which is this. You are pretending that your ONLY options are (1) or (3).
> 
> And to be clear I don’t think Far threatened to divorce F2. I think he just depriortized her and when she aggressively complained he shrugged and told her she could either treat him better or see him very little. That is a perfect example of (2).


Two is where I'm interested in being, and I think that's where I was once upon a time. It was my wife that changed, whether she will admit it or not, and that's what has spun this whole thing out of control and turned me into what I am now.


----------



## farsidejunky

MEM2020 said:


> Loosely speaking there are three points on the marital power dynamic. There is no right or wrong to it. It just is.
> 
> From highest to lowest they are as follows:
> 
> 1. I am willing to divorce you if you aren’t doing what I want, and comfortable saying so.
> 2. I am not willing to divorce you, but I will do what I need to take care of myself and that includes doing things that I believe are fair, that absolutely align with the golden rule, EVEN IF THAT MEANS YOU MAY DIVORCE ME.
> 3. I am not willing to rock the boat because the idea of divorce is so totally terrifying. This means that - even if severely neglected I will just bite the pillow.
> 
> 
> Me - I am at (2), always have been, probably always will be. I am good with that. I think M2 is also at (2) with me.
> 
> You are doing the exact same thing as hundreds of nice guys before you. Which is this. You are pretending that your ONLY options are (1) or (3).
> 
> And to be clear I don’t think Far threatened to divorce F2. I think he just depriortized her and when she aggressively complained he shrugged and told her she could either treat him better or see him very little. That is a perfect example of (2).


In fairness, I threatened divorce once, early in the reset.

When I finally got sick and tired of being sick and tired, I told her either our intimacy improves or I would be filing for divorce. 

I did not do it again after that, nor did I need to. My actions communicated exactly where we stood, even if I was not patient enough to see it at various times.


----------



## Middle of Everything

MrNobody said:


> I did not mean that insensitively, but I just equate being willing to lose/leave everything as meaning the end of the marriage i.e. divorce.


But if you arent willing to lose/leave everything you are going to show that in all you do. 

Now im not saying you need to buy into the Alpha male/red pill ****. But if you are SO afraid of losing her, you will come across as weak and a child.

I think someone else used a small sports analogy already. But can you ever make a shot in basketball if you are so afraid of missing you never take it? Do you ever make a putt in golf by leaving it short every time because you are afraid of missing and blowing it by? Right now you seem afraid. Not a way to play a sport well and also not a way to be a spouse.


----------



## farsidejunky

MrNobody said:


> Two is where I'm interested in being, and I think that's where I was once upon a time. It was my wife that changed, whether she will admit it or not, and that's what has spun this whole thing out of control and turned me into what I am now.


Extreme ownership of your faults is your friend right now.

The above quoted should say that you ALLOWED what she did to turn you into what you have become.

Nobody can change us without our own consent.


----------



## MrNobody

farsidejunky said:


> Extreme ownership of your faults is your friend right now.
> 
> The above quoted should say that you ALLOWED what she did to turn you into what you have become.
> 
> Nobody can change us without our own consent.


That is a fair statement.


----------



## Lila

@MrNobody, have you and your wife had a getaway or gone on vacation without your children? Did the sex/intimacy improve while away? 

I ask because your wife's response to you when she's away from life stresses may be an indicator as to whether spending more time together will improve your situation at home. IOW, if she's not interested in sex with you on vacation, chances are that the source of your issues is something other than lack of quality time. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## MrNobody

Lila said:


> @MrNobody, have you and your wife had a getaway or gone on vacation without your children? Did the sex/intimacy improve while away?
> 
> I ask because your wife's response to you when she's away from life stresses may be an indicator as to whether spending more time together will improve your situation at home. IOW, if she's not interested in sex with you on vacation, chances are that the source of your issues is something other than lack of quality time.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Interestingly enough, we have been away for the weekend together without kids three times in the past six weeks or so, and we were intimate each time. So three for three in the past two months when away from home.


----------



## Lila

MrNobody said:


> I've been trying. It's a slow burn but there have been small breakthroughs here and there, and then I **** it up the first time she rejects me by getting pissed and sulking/arguing over the rejection, and then I take two steps back. It's been a vicious cycle but I'm still working at it.


Getting pissed and sulking because she doesn't want sex when you initiate is a big no, no. All it does is reinforce her beliefs that sex is a duty she needs to fulfill to keep you happy. If you genuinely want her to desire sex with you, never ever sulk or whine after getting rejected.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Lila

MrNobody said:


> Interestingly enough, we have been away for the weekend together without kids three times in the past six weeks or so, and we were intimate each time. So three for three in the past two months when away from home.


 That's fantastic. I agree with others that have suggested spending more quality time together dating your wife. 

What sorts of things did you do when you were first dating? Did you surprise her on dates? Did you do fun stuff like go to a carnival or skinny dip ? 

Do you text her? Seriously, text her stupid questions you'd ask someone you're just now trying to get to know. Here's one.... If you could meet one person in history who would it be and why did you pick them? Or if you could have any super power what would it be. 

You need to treat like your girlfriend and not just the mother of your kids. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## MrNobody

Lila said:


> Getting pissed and sulking because she doesn't want sex when you initiate is a big no, no. All it does is reinforce her beliefs that sex is a duty she needs to fulfill to keep you happy. If you genuinely want her to desire sex with you, never ever sulk or whine after getting rejected.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Unfortunately I've been learning, and somehow keep continuing to learn, that the hard way.


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## MrNobody

Lila said:


> That's fantastic. I agree with others that have suggested spending more quality time together dating your wife.
> 
> What sorts of things did you do when you were first dating? Did you surprise her on dates? Did you do fun stuff like go to a carnival or skinny dip ?
> 
> Do you text her? Seriously, text her stupid questions you'd ask someone you're just now trying to get to know. Here's one.... If you could meet one person in history who would it be and why did you pick them? Or if you could have any super power what would it be.
> 
> You need to treat like your girlfriend and not just the mother of your kids.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Honestly, I've really tried all of that. That's when she told me that I was trying to hard, and that she felt like it was putting to much pressure on her to reciprocate.


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## Lila

MrNobody said:


> Honestly, I've really tried all of that. That's when she told me that I was trying to hard, and that she felt like it was *putting to much pressure on her to reciprocate.*


So were you? 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## MrNobody

Lila said:


> So were you?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


 Tough question to answer, yeah I was doing nice things for her, complementing her often, buying her flowers out of the blue occasionally, trying to surprise her with nice gifts every now and again, just letting her know I generally appreciator and I'm still attracted to her. I would arrange date nights and things like that. She thought that was trying to hard. Some of my friends are stumped on that one.


----------



## Lila

MrNobody said:


> Tough question to answer, yeah I was doing nice things for her, complementing her often, buying her flowers out of the blue occasionally, trying to surprise her with nice gifts every now and again, just letting her know I generally appreciator and I'm still attracted to her. I would arrange date nights and things like that. She thought that was trying to hard. Some of my friends are stumped on that one.


No, I meant were you pressuring her to reciprocate you attention or were you doing it because you wanted to? If you were doing it expecting her to reciprocate with sex, then that's called a covert contract per NMMNG. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## MrNobody

Lila said:


> No, I meant were you pressuring her to reciprocate you attention or were you doing it because you wanted to? If you were doing it expecting her to reciprocate with sex, then that's called a covert contract per NMMNG.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Yes, I could see how it could be perceived that way, but I've always felt that it was genuine. I don't understand why it has to be so complicated.


----------



## JayDee7

Toddlers. She?s probably still hormonally messed up and also stuck in mommy mode.
Give this time, especially since she never was all that sexual to begin with. Talk to her and let know you understand she needs time to get back into sex. In the meanwhile suggest that to remain close and to avoid detaching emotionally, you need her to try for you at a frequency you can both agree to. It?s sex, once she?s doing it she?s going to like it. She?s just not in the mood to do it, likely she?s just seeing herself as a mom and not as a sexy woman. Make her feel sexy. Pay for her hair to be done, nails, pedicures, waxing, eyebrows, make up, clothes, etc and tell her that whatever she needs for her looks is on you since you get the benefit of it. Take her out, have her drink a little, compliment her, and when the moment seems right just take her physically. Of course if she says no then back off, but she?s your wife and probably just needs to be led.


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## Lila

MrNobody said:


> Yes, I could see how it could be perceived that way, but I've always felt that it was genuine.* I don't understand why it has to be so complicated.*


It's complicated for the same reasons you don't want her to have sex with you out of a sense of duty. You want her to genuinely desire you. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## MEM2020

Your friends aren’t helping you, and like it or not you seem unwilling to understand the model Far and I suggest. 

At its simplest your issue can be defined as follows: You prefer a very stable, possibly even hyper stable environment. That is not friendly to your sex life -since passion thrives on unpredictability. 

As a result, you seeom unwilling to grasp the idea that (2) is a mind set, not a skill set. 

This comes across as you being afraid of prioritizing yourself while deprioritizing her. 

That buckets you in (3), the needy clingy always available bucket of no passion. 






MrNobody said:


> Tough question to answer, yeah I was doing nice things for her, complementing her often, buying her flowers out of the blue occasionally, trying to surprise her with nice gifts every now and again, just letting her know I generally appreciator and I'm still attracted to her. I would arrange date nights and things like that. She thought that was trying to hard. Some of my friends are stumped on that one.


----------



## MrNobody

MEM2020 said:


> Your friends aren’t helping you, and like it or not you seem unwilling to understand the model Far and I suggest.
> 
> At its simplest your issue can be defined as follows: You prefer a very stable, possibly even hyper stable environment. That is not friendly to your sex life -since passion thrives on unpredictability.
> 
> As a result, you seeom unwilling to grasp the idea that (2) is a mind set, not a skill set.
> 
> This comes across as you being afraid of prioritizing yourself while deprioritizing her.
> 
> That buckets you in (3), the needy clingy always available bucket of no passion.


It has been a lot of information to digest and I'm trying to sort it all out right now.

I came home kind of annoyed, but did not let on that I was annoyed.... went about my business, she kept asking if something was wrong which I kept denying. I could tell her spider senses were tingling, though. In the past, this would have led to a talk about things. Tonight, I would just throw out a random anecdote before that happened just to indicate I wasn't interested in talking like that. She got annoyed eventually, but couldn't really say much because I hadnt really done anything.... I excused myself to watch tv in bed.


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## farsidejunky

Heh, I also used to believe I could be annoyed with my wife and hide it from her.

I was lying to myself...just like you.

Why were you annoyed?


----------



## Satya

MrNobody said:


> Sex is important to me, but is ultimately still a small part of the overall picture.


Come back in 1, 5, 10 years and tell us with all sincerity you feel the same. Tell us this after you've been a wallet and an emotional tampon for enough time while your wife loses more and more respect for you, whilst simultaneously you lose respect for yourself. Tell us this when you're old enough to need viagra (but what's the point?) and you're lamenting wasting the best, active years of your life in a sexless relationship. Tell us this when your grown up children end up in sexless marriages because that's what you modeled to them as being an acceptable, normal marriage.

I'm sorry for sounding harsh, but this is the precise attitude you are afraid to adopt with your wife. You think a castle can be held together with silly string and circus peanuts because there's love involved. Unfortunately, it takes a lot more than you're able to see. It takes a hard line and a lot of risk, and Brinkmanship as @farsidejunky has apply explained. Rome wasn't built in a day, so you need small, consistent steps that show her with ACTIONS, that the current state of the sexual (or non) relationship is intolerable. Marriage counseling, sex therapy... Several options are available to address this issue, but that's assuming she's willing to participate. Right now, she doesn't recognize it as a problem.

Why did you marry her, if not for the prospect of having regular sex with her. Yes, her kindness or big heart or whatever are all great qualities, but be honest here. You have normal needs, and one of them is sex. It's not an unreasonable expectation to have regular sex with your WIFE.


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## Malaise

And the resentment builds. And the anger is right behind it.


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## MrNobody

farsidejunky said:


> Heh, I also used to believe I could be annoyed with my wife and hide it from her.
> 
> I was lying to myself...just like you.
> 
> Why were you annoyed?


Just thinking about everything on the way home. I do that a lot, it comes and goes in waves.


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## MrNobody

Thinking about if it weren't for an obligatory peck on the lips goodbye every morning, we literally wouldn't have any physical contact for days at a time.

Thinking about the cycle of sex every two weeks, we have it, it's great and I'm happy for a couple days, then as the two week mark approaches (today is exactly two weeks), I start to get anxious, annoyed, mad, sad, etc... wife senses this, initiates, rinse repeat.

Thinking about how I've tried so hard for two years to change, to conform to what she wants, and getting nowhere...

Thinking about trying to date her again, be romantic, do nice things for her, only to be told I'm trying to hard and getting nowhere....

Thinking that I'm even less of a priority than stupid effing Facebook and the kardashians most nights....

These are the things that I think about, and they annoy me.


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## farsidejunky

MrNobody said:


> Thinking about if it weren't for an obligatory peck on the lips goodbye every morning, we literally wouldn't have any physical contact for days at a time.
> 
> Thinking about the cycle of sex every two weeks, we have it, it's great and I'm happy for a couple days, then as the two week mark approaches (today is exactly two weeks), I start to get anxious, annoyed, mad, sad, etc... wife senses this, initiates, rinse repeat.
> 
> Thinking about how I've tried so hard for two years to change, to conform to what she wants, and getting nowhere...
> 
> Thinking about trying to date her again, be romantic, do nice things for her, only to be told I'm trying to hard and getting nowhere....
> 
> Thinking that I'm even less of a priority than stupid effing Facebook and the kardashians most nights....
> 
> These are the things that I think about, and they annoy me.


This is going to feel like a cheap shot, but I really want it to hit home.

Mid-afternoon yesterday you were trying to convince us that your situation wasn't so bad. Please remember the quoted post when you want to try and rationalize again.

Lying is never as damaging as when we are lying to ourselves.


----------



## farsidejunky

One more thing.

Remember when I said extreme ownership over your faults is your friend?

Who are you more annoyed with? 

Your wife, who is continuing to put you low on her list of priorities?

Or yourself for continuing to keep her at the top of your priority list while she does the opposite?

Love yourself enough to not tolerate the intolerable.


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## MrNobody

farsidejunky said:


> This is going to feel like a cheap shot, but I really want it to hit home.
> 
> Mid-afternoon yesterday you were trying to convince us that your situation wasn't so bad. Please remember the quoted post when you want to try and rationalize again.
> 
> Lying is never as damaging as when we are lying to ourselves.


I don't consider it a cheap shot, like I said it comes in waves... sometimes it feels like I can handle it, others it feels like what I wrote... 

But you all have to bear with me here, you've been through all this, I'm still processing it.


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## MrNobody

farsidejunky said:


> One more thing.
> 
> Remember when I said extreme ownership over your faults is your friend?
> 
> Who are you more annoyed with?
> 
> Your wife, who is continuing to put you low on her list of priorities?
> 
> Or yourself for continuing to keep her at the top of your priority list while she does the opposite?


Both.


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## farsidejunky

MrNobody said:


> Both.


Of those two, which is the one you control and which is the one you influence?


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## farsidejunky

MrNobody said:


> I don't consider it a cheap shot, like I said it comes in waves... sometimes it feels like I can handle it, others it feels like what I wrote...
> 
> But you all have to bear with me here, you've been through all this, I'm still processing it.


It may feel like inpatience, but it is actually something very different.

A great poster named @Blossom Leigh, who left TAM over a year ago, called it 'beating the truth drum'.

Showing you where you are not immersed in and following the truth is what most here are doing. What you do with it is up to you.


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## MrNobody

farsidejunky said:


> Of those two, which is the one you control and which is the one you influence?


I get it.


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## cma62

It’s one thing to be too busy, too tired or not in the mood for sex, but that doesn’t explain why she shows you no affection at other times.

You have taken on spending time with the kids and doing housework that needed doing.

I don’t believe in husbands saying “ I did extra housework to help her and took care of the kids for her so she didn’t feel as stressed”...so why won’t she have sex with me.

That mindset wouldn’t go over well with me. You live in the house as well and they are your children to love and spend time with.

I’m not saying it’s not considerate of you to take on extra household chores and spend extra time with your kids, it is .....but don’t come across as doing it for HER. She may feel the effort on your part was just to get sex....
There is such a line in the sand with this thinking....you were probably doing it for both reasons....to help out because you live there and they are your kids as well.....and hoping that she will see this as a good will gesture for her to desire you......all she sees is .....an alterior motive.

You have to appeal to the woman in her....the mommy in her is taking over. Make her feel desired and loved for who she is, not just what she can do.
Spend regular time together just as a couple, plan a weekend away once in a while without the kids. Show her how much you desire her and want to be with her.

If you are watching a movie and kids are asleep...be spontaneous on the couch. Instead of waiting for her to finish in the shower for your turn...join her. 

I agree with “taking your wife”....rather than being so orderly and calculated....makes me feel very desirable and wanted....such a turn on.
Women are turned off by needy, clingy men who don’t seem to respect themselves....not saying this is you...just that this is how she sees you.

If after implementing some of the above...and nothing seems to be working.....then you have to upset the status quo....not saying you have to go down the road of telling her she needs to show you more affection and have more sex with you or you will walk...yet.....but detach in ways that will open her eyes to your relationship being not quite like it used to be and get her thinking of how it might be if you weren’t around anymore.

Go out with friends one night, hit the gym, join a sports team....something to take your focus off your marriage and onto yourself. Your wife will definitely notice and it will put her out of her comfort zone. She will respect you more for entertaining yourself rather than her being your sole source of entertainment.

I believe in where there is a will there’s a way....so whether she has health issues( low thyroid, hormone imbalance, depression etc) that is getting in the way of her showing affection or desiring you...
Or she feels she stretched thin being pulled in every direction by her job, you and the kids.....her willingness to combat all that stands in her way is a reflection of how she feels about you deep down...the lack of affection in general not just lack of sex are very inidicative of her lack of deep feelings for you.

Her actions are speaking the truth...not her words...take note and take the course of action that will change this before your resentment builds and you no longer care.


----------



## MrNobody

cma62 said:


> It’s one thing to be too busy, too tired or not in the mood for sex, but that doesn’t explain why she shows you no affection at other times.
> 
> You have taken on spending time with the kids and doing housework that needed doing.
> 
> I don’t believe in husbands saying “ I did extra housework to help her and took care of the kids for her so she didn’t feel as stressed”...so why won’t she have sex with me.
> 
> That mindset wouldn’t go over well with me. You live in the house as well and they are your children to love and spend time with.
> 
> I’m not saying it’s not considerate of you to take on extra household chores and spend extra time with your kids, it is .....but don’t come across as doing it for HER. She may feel the effort on your part was just to get sex....
> *There is such a line in the sand with this thinking....you were probably doing it for both reasons....to help out because you live there and they are your kids as well.....and hoping that she will see this as a good will gesture for her to desire you......all she sees is .....an alterior motive*.
> 
> You have to appeal to the woman in her....the mommy in her is taking over. Make her feel desired and loved for who she is, not just what she can do.
> Spend regular time together just as a couple, plan a weekend away once in a while without the kids. Show her how much you desire her and want to be with her.
> 
> If you are watching a movie and kids are asleep...be spontaneous on the couch. Instead of waiting for her to finish in the shower for your turn...join her.
> 
> I agree with “taking your wife”....rather than being so orderly and calculated....makes me feel very desirable and wanted....such a turn on.
> Women are turned off by needy, clingy men who don’t seem to respect themselves....not saying this is you...just that this is how she sees you.
> 
> If after implementing some of the above...and nothing seems to be working.....then you have to upset the status quo....not saying you have to go down the road of telling her she needs to show you more affection and have more sex with you or you will walk...yet.....but detach in ways that will open her eyes to your relationship being not quite like it used to be and get her thinking of how it might be if you weren’t around anymore.
> 
> Go out with friends one night, hit the gym, join a sports team....something to take your focus off your marriage and onto yourself. Your wife will definitely notice and it will put her out of her comfort zone. She will respect you more for entertaining yourself rather than her being your sole source of entertainment.
> 
> I believe in where there is a will there’s a way....so whether she has health issues( low thyroid, hormone imbalance, depression etc) that is getting in the way of her showing affection or desiring you...
> Or she feels she stretched thin being pulled in every direction by her job, you and the kids.....her willingness to combat all that stands in her way is a reflection of how she feels about you deep down...the lack of affection in general not just lack of sex are very inidicative of her lack of deep feelings for you.
> 
> Her actions are speaking the truth...not her words...take note and take the course of action that will change this before your resentment builds and you no longer care.


I think it started the way you describe, but two years it is because I'm taking ownership of responsibilities.


----------



## Yeswecan

MrNobody said:


> Thinking about if it weren't for an obligatory peck on the lips goodbye every morning, we literally wouldn't have any physical contact for days at a time.
> 
> Thinking about the cycle of sex every two weeks, we have it, it's great and I'm happy for a couple days, then as the two week mark approaches (today is exactly two weeks), I start to get anxious, annoyed, mad, sad, etc... wife senses this, initiates, rinse repeat.
> 
> Thinking about how I've tried so hard for two years to change, to conform to what she wants, and getting nowhere...
> 
> Thinking about trying to date her again, be romantic, do nice things for her, only to be told I'm trying to hard and getting nowhere....
> 
> Thinking that I'm even less of a priority than stupid effing Facebook and the kardashians most nights....
> 
> These are the things that I think about, and they annoy me.


I understand your annoyance with Fecalbook and TV programs getting the attention AFTER doing your best to be who your significant other wants you to be and nothing become of it. It is specifically annoying taking 2 years to do everything to the letter your W asks and the end result is more of the same or told you are trying to hard. Ultimately your W fails to see eventually you will stop trying. That might be your W end game. You giving up. However, your W may not see it my be the end game for the entire marriage. 

What you have written here it does appear it is duty sex. It is in two week cycles. 

As I have written before in your thread. There is more going on inside your W head.


----------



## MrNobody

Yeswecan said:


> I understand your annoyance with Fecalbook and TV programs getting the attention AFTER doing your best to be who your significant other wants you to be and nothing become of it. It is specifically annoying taking 2 years to do everything to the letter your W asks and the end result is more of the same or told you are trying to hard. Ultimately your W fails to see eventually you will stop trying. That might be your W end game. You giving up. However, your W may not see it my be the end game for the entire marriage.
> 
> What you have written here it does appear it is duty sex. It is in two week cycles.
> 
> As I have written before in your thread. There is more going on inside your W head.


There may very well be, but I don't know how to find out. I've exhausted every outlet I know to find out.


----------



## Satya

Question...
Have you ever rejected her pity sex?

My husband has told me stories of past pity sex from his ex-wife. I admit, I gave my ex-husband pity sex when I was not loving or respecting him (we had issues that led to resentment).

I decided I will NEVER again dish out pity sex. My husband has decided he will NEVER accept pity sex again.

He wants enthusiasm or gtfo.

I understand this and feel that I want the same from him.

However, we can't force one another to be hungry and enthusiastic, so we know there are some basic truths and acts that keep this topped up (in no particular order except for maybe the first):

Respect (everything starts here. Respect for one another and our needs... Read the 5 love languages for input. Never belittle or put down each other... Or blame or use demoralizing absolutes like "never" or "always.") 

Effort (do we strive to meet each others needs? Is this effort equal from both of us? Do we recognize that intimacy is the glue that holds and bonds us together, rather than a "chore" to get over and done with?)

Balance (do we allocate enough quality time together per week, with no kids/friends/distractions? If imbalanced, do we address the problem and work together to rectify it?)

Agreement/synchronization (read the policy of Joint Agreement. If we can't dispute civilly, and we can't agree, we just don't do it. We don't argue. We don't raise voices. We don't have tantrums. We express if we need alone time to process and circle back when calm.)


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Look up the terms placate, settle, love and compromise. Two are about about mutual decisions and the others are about using a band-aid. Your sex life is not about compromise or love IMO.


----------



## MrNobody

Satya said:


> Question...
> Have you ever rejected her pity sex?
> 
> My husband has told me stories of past pity sex from his ex-wife. I admit, I gave my ex-husband pity sex when I was not loving or respecting him (we had issues that led to resentment).
> 
> I decided I will NEVER again dish out pity sex. My husband has decided he will NEVER accept pity sex again.
> 
> He wants enthusiasm or gtfo.
> 
> I understand this and feel that I want the same from him.
> 
> However, we can't force one another to be hungry and enthusiastic, so we know there are some basic truths and acts that keep this topped up (in no particular order except for maybe the first):
> 
> Respect (everything starts here. Respect for one another and our needs... Read the 5 love languages for input. Never belittle or put down each other... Or blame or use demoralizing absolutes like "never" or "always.")
> 
> Effort (do we strive to meet each others needs? Is this effort equal from both of us? Do we recognize that intimacy is the glue that holds and bonds us together, rather than a "chore" to get over and done with?)
> 
> Balance (do we allocate enough quality time together per week, with no kids/friends/distractions? If imbalanced, do we address the problem and work together to rectify it?)
> 
> Agreement/synchronization (read the policy of Joint Agreement. If we can't dispute civilly, and we can't agree, we just don't do it. We don't argue. We don't raise voices. We don't have tantrums. We express if we need alone time to process and circle back when calm.)


Our most recent argument/discussion was how pity/duty sex would not work for me. I didn't ever want to do that again, and that I would go without other than be another chore on the to do list. I told her I thought we should table the act and all the talk about it indefinitely because it was emotionally exhausting to me. She said that was not the case and said we could have sex that night but I told her no I'm not into it. The next night she initiated and was enthusiastic about it. That was two weeks ago tonight.


----------



## MrNobody

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Look up the terms placate, settle, love and compromise. Two are about about mutual decisions and the others are about using a band-aid. Your sex life is not about compromise or love IMO.


I'm not sure I follow.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

This is about love and compromise:


Satya said:


> Question...
> Have you ever rejected her pity sex?
> 
> My husband has told me stories of past pity sex from his ex-wife. I admit, I gave my ex-husband pity sex when I was not loving or respecting him (we had issues that led to resentment).
> 
> I decided I will NEVER again dish out pity sex. My husband has decided he will NEVER accept pity sex again.
> 
> He wants enthusiasm or gtfo.
> 
> I understand this and feel that I want the same from him.
> 
> However, we can't force one another to be hungry and enthusiastic, so we know there are some basic truths and acts that keep this topped up (in no particular order except for maybe the first):
> 
> Respect (everything starts here. Respect for one another and our needs... Read the 5 love languages for input. Never belittle or put down each other... Or blame or use demoralizing absolutes like "never" or "always.")
> 
> Effort (do we strive to meet each others needs? Is this effort equal from both of us? Do we recognize that intimacy is the glue that holds and bonds us together, rather than a "chore" to get over and done with?)
> 
> Balance (do we allocate enough quality time together per week, with no kids/friends/distractions? If imbalanced, do we address the problem and work together to rectify it?)
> 
> Agreement/synchronization (read the policy of Joint Agreement. If we can't dispute civilly, and we can't agree, we just don't do it. We don't argue. We don't raise voices. We don't have tantrums. We express if we need alone time to process and circle back when calm.)


This is about settling and being placated:


> Thinking about if it weren't for an obligatory peck on the lips goodbye every morning, we literally wouldn't have any physical contact for days at a time.
> 
> Thinking about the cycle of sex every two weeks, we have it, it's great and I'm happy for a couple days, then as the two week mark approaches (today is exactly two weeks), I start to get anxious, annoyed, mad, sad, etc... wife senses this, initiates, rinse repeat.
> 
> Thinking about how I've tried so hard for two years to change, to conform to what she wants, and getting nowhere...
> 
> Thinking about trying to date her again, be romantic, do nice things for her, only to be told I'm trying to hard and getting nowhere....
> 
> Thinking that I'm even less of a priority than stupid effing Facebook and the kardashians most nights....
> 
> These are the things that I think about, and they annoy me.


I can tell which one is more appeasing to me and probably most married couples.


----------



## MrNobody

So my marriage sucks apparently. So what now?


----------



## Herschel

You know what wives who don't have sex with their husbands do when they eventually get separated/divorced? Yeah, exactly. And a lot of it.


----------



## Herschel

MrNobody said:


> So my marriage sucks apparently. So what now?


Pull away. It takes time. It took me months of working on myself, focusing on making me a better me. Will she get mad at you? Of course, but that is her deflecting blame. She clearly isn't interested in making the marriage the best it can be and you shouldn't have to shoulder the burden of that. The 180 makes you focus on you. The goal is to just make yourself strong and independent. Maybe it gets her juices flowing, maybe not. Maybe it makes you more confident and after you separate, more attractive to women. Whatever the case, it allows you to emotionally separate, be deliberate in your actions and put yourself first.


----------



## Middle of Everything

MrNobody said:


> So my marriage sucks apparently. So what now?


I dont think it sucks. In fact it sounds pretty good. 

It just sounds like it sucks in the intimacy department. People have given you good advice on rectifying that. It would likely be tough to do, and the end results may be really scary. The scary part about pulling away and working on yourself if the thought that she really isnt attracted to you. You have to be willing to face that possibility. Unless you are willing to face that nothing anyone says here can help you.

Please realize that people here are trying to help. Not being mean or spiteful. I myself struggle with what you are. Does my wife TRULY find me attractive? Is she placating me with duty sex? While not on a once every two weeks schedule like yourself, at times it feels like it is a schedule of giving it out to make me feel better. I havent had to go full 180 yet, but the thought has crossed my mind. Its in the dark stretches like you are in now where the mind begins to wonder. Does she truly love me? Is she attracted to me?


----------



## Yeswecan

MrNobody said:


> So my marriage sucks apparently. So what now?


Well, no. Only a portion of the marriage sucks. A portion that is important to you. Now what? If you truly believe your W has nothing in her mind as the root cause for 14 day sex schedule then accept this is how it will be or reject. Is there really any other choice?


----------



## MrNobody

Middle of Everything said:


> I dont think it sucks. In fact it sounds pretty good.
> 
> It just sounds like it sucks in the intimacy department. People have given you good advice on rectifying that. It would likely be tough to do, and the end results may be really scary. The scary part about pulling away and working on yourself if the thought that she really isnt attracted to you. You have to be willing to face that possibility. Unless you are willing to face that nothing anyone says here can help you.
> 
> Please realize that people here are trying to help. Not being mean or spiteful. I myself struggle with what you are. Does my wife TRULY find me attractive? Is she placating me with duty sex? While not on a once every two weeks schedule like yourself, at times it feels like it is a schedule of giving it out to make me feel better. I havent had to go full 180 yet, but the thought has crossed my mind. Its in the dark stretches like you are in now where the mind begins to wonder. Does she truly love me? Is she attracted to me?


I do recognize that. Honestly, I'm scared and confused about what I'm feeling.


----------



## MrNobody

Yeswecan said:


> Well, no. Only a portion of the marriage sucks. A portion that is important to you. Now what? If you truly believe your W has nothing in her mind as the root cause for 14 day sex schedule then accept this is how it will be or reject. Is there really any other choice?


I don't know if I truly believe it, but I truly believe I've asked her every which way I can over the past two years and the answer never changes.

Obviously her actions won't allow me to believe anything with 100% certainty, but it's not for lack of trying to talk it out of her.


----------



## MrNobody

So I've decided to detach for a bit, see where that gets me. We did have the evening relaxing at home already planned for Saturday... but I was distant but courteous last night and this morning. She asked if I was ok several times and I said I was. Responded to an email out of the blue today and let her know that I've decided to take our son out to dinner tomorrow night just the two of us, then after the kids are in bed I'm going to go grab a beer with a friend. I'm working later tonight so will likely just go home and keep it short and courteous and then go watch tv in bed again....

Guess I'll see where this goes.


----------



## Herschel

While that is good in concept, it won't work like that. You don't detach to see where it goes, like, I'm going to be in a huff until you start putting out more. That will only backfire and cause more resentment.

You have to commit. You have to see that the current lifestyle is NOT for you (hence why you posted on this board) and put your foot down and say, "I've taken alls I can takes, I can't takes no more!"

If in a week, she spreads her legs and you jump in, you aren't just back to where you were, you are worse off. You have taught her to just duty sex it up. She has to want you, to yearn for you, to need you. You have to focus only on yourself and you have to be willing to take this to a possible conclusion of divorce if she digs her feet into the sand. This isn't a game and it's not a puzzle where there is a right answer or a wrong answer. It may be that your wife will NEVER want more than what is going on and it will likely only get less and less as you get older. Are you willing to give up your current years for that? Think this out man.


----------



## toblerone

I think you'll find that you'll enjoy doing things without your wife around.


----------



## Yeswecan

MrNobody said:


> I don't know if I truly believe it, but I truly believe I've asked her every which way I can over the past two years and the answer never changes.
> 
> Obviously her actions won't allow me to believe anything with 100% certainty, but it's not for lack of trying to talk it out of her.


The many attempts to rectify the situation that keeps getting stonewalled will not be a big surprise to your W if you look to pull the plug. I understand you are not at that point. But it is part of the choice to accept or reject.


----------



## Herschel

toblerone said:


> I think you'll find that you'll enjoy doing things without your wife around.


Dude, you have a lot of bitterness deep down. I don't mean it as an insult, it makes me love your posts, but jusayin...


----------



## farsidejunky

MrNobody said:


> So my marriage sucks apparently. So what now?


Now we take a seat in the victim chair?


----------



## farsidejunky

MrNobody said:


> So I've decided to detach for a bit, see where that gets me. We did have the evening relaxing at home already planned for Saturday... but I was distant but courteous last night and this morning. She asked if I was ok several times and I said I was. Responded to an email out of the blue today and let her know that I've decided to take our son out to dinner tomorrow night just the two of us, then after the kids are in bed I'm going to go grab a beer with a friend. I'm working later tonight so will likely just go home and keep it short and courteous and then go watch tv in bed again....
> 
> Guess I'll see where this goes.


While these steps are good, your mindset is not. You are still trying to treat the symptoms rather than the disease.


----------



## MrNobody

So again, I get it, I start the 180... for me.

But... what do I do when she looks to initiate? We're in a rut here, a status quo... is it really in my best interest to turn down the exact thing that's causing me to do this in the first place? Especially if she's trying to make it not duty sex?

Again, I don't want to play games, here.


----------



## toblerone

Herschel said:


> Dude, you have a lot of bitterness deep down. I don't mean it as an insult, it makes me love your posts, but jusayin...


I get it. Sometimes it is just true goofy snark though!


----------



## farsidejunky

farsidejunky said:


> Say yes if you want to, however...
> 
> If there is any of the following, stop immediately and walk away, even if it means you are in mid stroke.
> 
> *"Hurry up."
> *Putting ridiculous conditions on the experience before hand, such as missionary only, time limits, etc.
> *Starfish sex, eg. laying there and waiting for you to finish
> *Bad attitude
> 
> Continuing or pursuing sex in in these scenarios will erode her respect for you even further.
> 
> The idea is you want sex to be something you do with her, not to her (credit @MEM2020 for this one). BTW, the reason I paged him here is because he was a huge help in restoring my relationship. I would carefully consider whatever he has to tell you.


I'm repeating myself. Here is the answer in what to do if she initiates.

Knock her socks off unless she is not into it, in which case you tell her no thank you. 

In a cool, firm, dispassionate manner. No anger, even if that is what you feel.


----------



## Yeswecan

MrNobody said:


> So again, I get it, I start the 180... for me.
> 
> But... what do I do when she looks to initiate? We're in a rut here, a status quo... is it really in my best interest to turn down the exact thing that's causing me to do this in the first place? Especially if she's trying to make it not duty sex?
> 
> Again, I don't want to play games, here.


Starting the 180 makes very little sense to me. 180 is attempting to totally detach. It is not like your W has totally turned off like a light bulb. She is trying. If you want to start working on yourself go to the gym. Start making some plans with your friends.


----------



## toblerone

MrNobody said:


> So again, I get it, I start the 180... for me.
> 
> But... what do I do when she looks to initiate? We're in a rut here, a status quo... is it really in my best interest to turn down the exact thing that's causing me to do this in the first place? Especially if she's trying to make it not duty sex?
> 
> Again, I don't want to play games, here.


If she initiates, don't reciprocate? I mean at that stage I'd hope you'd be able to tell if she's just trying to go through the motions or now all of a sudden you're a Stetson man.

Not everyone can just quit smoking out of the blue. How long does it take to break that habit? It takes time, it takes real changes in your life. Maybe don't hang around smokers as much. Maybe teach yourself how to handle situations where you'd like to have a smoke differently.

So you kicked the habit for a couple of days. Man that yearning comes back fast. Just one won't hurt, will it?

**** now you're back to square one.

Based on all the stuff I've read around here, it's not about playing games. It's about changing your attitude.


----------



## MrNobody

Yeswecan said:


> Starting the 180 makes very little sense to me. 180 is attempting to totally detach. It is not like your W has totally turned off like a light bulb. She is trying. If you want to start working on yourself go to the gym. Start making some plans with your friends.


Well I feel like I'm getting mixed signals here and I'm having trouble sorting the advice.


----------



## ButtPunch

The 180 is for people who have been cheated on looking to detach.

I don't think the 180 is what you need to do.

Nothing wrong with pulling back and doing things for yourself however.

But if she wants to talk you talk.

She wants to bang you rock her world.


----------



## MrNobody

Yeswecan said:


> Starting the 180 makes very little sense to me. 180 is attempting to totally detach. It is not like your W has totally turned off like a light bulb. She is trying. If you want to start working on yourself go to the gym. Start making some plans with your friends.


To clarify what I said above, I guess I felt like people were saying half measures won't going to work for this, that it was more all or nothing.


----------



## MrNobody

ButtPunch said:


> The 180 is for people who have been cheated on looking to detach.
> 
> I don't think the 180 is what you need to do.
> 
> Nothing wrong with pulling back and doing things for yourself however.
> 
> But if she wants to talk you talk.
> 
> She wants to bang you rock her world.


These are terms I can understand 😀


----------



## Yeswecan

MrNobody said:


> To clarify what I said above, I guess I felt like people were saying half measures won't going to work for this, that it was more all or nothing.


Sir, I think life is full of half-measures, give and take. At this juncture your W is actively, but not full steam ahead, working on meeting your needs. Pulling the cards off the table will produce exactly what? More detachment. Need to keep hands on like a ball of clay. The clay continuously kneaded and adding water stays malleable. The clay that is left untouched turn hard and cold. You are in some way getting kneaded as is your W in some respect. Why should that stop with the use of 180?


----------



## sokillme

MrNobody said:


> Thinking about if it weren't for an obligatory peck on the lips goodbye every morning, we literally wouldn't have any physical contact for days at a time.
> 
> Thinking about the cycle of sex every two weeks, we have it, it's great and I'm happy for a couple days, then as the two week mark approaches (today is exactly two weeks), I start to get anxious, annoyed, mad, sad, etc... wife senses this, initiates, rinse repeat.
> 
> Thinking about how I've tried so hard for two years to change, to conform to what she wants, and getting nowhere...
> 
> Thinking about trying to date her again, be romantic, do nice things for her, only to be told I'm trying to hard and getting nowhere....
> 
> Thinking that I'm even less of a priority than stupid effing Facebook and the kardashians most nights....
> 
> These are the things that I think about, and they annoy me.


Have you said this? Have you said all of this. Have you had marriage counseling? Sorry I haven't read the entire thread. When something is stuck sometimes you need to stir it up to get it moving. Shake it up a little bit. 

OP I read something the other day which really made me think about this subject. Maybe it will help you too. They were discussing this exact same issue but after infidelity. 

Here is what one poster wrote - (paraphrasing). 

_When my wife stopped having sex with me, I thought well maybe it's menopause, we have a great marriage besides that, I love her and she loves me, so this is just something I just have to accept. So I did for 10 years, in my mind it was just that my wife just didn't want to have sex anymore, that part of her life was over, a sacrifice I had to make to be with her, and be in an otherwise good marriage. Then she had her affair. I realized then it wasn't that she didn't want to have sex it's that she didn't want to have sex with me. 
_
That was so painful to read it took my breath away. I am sure that thought hurts you. It hurts me writing it. Sounds like the guy was religious, they were church going and he completely trusted his wife. 

Here is the thing, we haven't heard from his wife so maybe she was always an ******* (actually ether way she is an *******. I digress. What I mean is maybe in this case she was always using him for security and never thought of him sexual or she is just screwed up). But maybe for a long while she also thought, WAS SURE sex was done for her, but at some point some other man came around and showed her that there was still the possibility of sex in her life. Maybe he stirred up feelings in her that she thought were long dead, and she went for it or lost her way. Whatever the reason in my mind it doesn't matter. What I took from that is that his marriage was always broken, whether he knew it or not, it was not a good marriage and it hadn't been for a long time. 

The way I see it is intimacy (emotional and physical) is one of the three reasons you get married. The other pillars being Love and Security, you could argue children is the forth but some people don't have kids, me included. You can't have a good marriage if one of these is missing. It's a 3 legged stool it doesn't work long term if one of the legs is missing. 

When you think of it when you say your marriage vows in a monogamous relationship the deal you are making is this. I want you to give me your emotional and sexual fidelity and in return I agree to provide that for you. It is truly wrong and selfish to expect someone to give you those things and then you turn around and skimp out on them. Lets look at financial security for instance, do you think your wife would be cool if you took your paycheck and used it for yourself and never helped provide her with financial security. If say she had to live in an apartment and you lived in an another apartment or you never pooled your money to buy a house or pay for food. Would you be a good husband if you did that? Most would call you a terrible husband in such a case, but even more importantly most would tell her she has every right to end the agreement. I would not feel guilty about that. Now one caveat would be if your spouse is physically unable to provide that aspect of your marriage. I don't think you should or have a moral right to leave (maybe this is too strong, I wouldn't leave as I take my vow seriously). The agreement is usually sickness and in health. It's not sickness, health, and even if I don't fulfill my end of the agreement because of selfishness. 

What I took from that guy's post that I never want to be that guy, I am not going to be that guy. It really change a lot about my thinking on this subject. I think anyone who is having problems with intimacy in their marriage needs to really address it with all earnestness. Things like this even if the are ignored forever and seem like business as usual don't bode well for long term success in marriage. A marriage missing intimacy is unsustainable. Eventually most will collapse. If you love your wife, if you love your marriage you need to fix this. Also you may be this guys wife in your scenario, you may meet a women who stirs up stuff in you that you thought were long dead. Not good for your wife to not even think about that. 

I think this is what you need to impress upon her. Maybe do some marriage counseling. I would try very hard to figure out what it is that turns your wife on. I would work on getting in shape and learning how to seduce her, that is on her too. She needs to be open to give you an idea. You may even need to have some painful discussions. But most importantly your wife has to be all in, and understand that what I am saying is true. All that said, if it were me and in the end I did all that and it didn't work and she didn't put in a consistent effort from that point on, I would not stay in that marriage because I really don't think you are safe, and I don't want to be like that guy whose wife cheated on him. I would rather accept on my own terms that my wife just doesn't want to have sex with me then find out later. I would take the chance that someone else would want to. In my mind my marriage would stop working eventually anyway, because it is missing a fundamental part of what a marriage is and is hopelessly broken already.


----------



## dubsey

I get the impression your wife isn't just an on/off switch, and needs to be thinking about sex for a while before she wants to have sex. If you detach and just ignore her, that won't get you there. I think she's probably more responsive.

Back when I was having similar issues, post-child, was I made more time for me. Go to the bar and watch the game the "the boys" etc. But - while she was making dinner, or doing something around the house or whatever, I'd walk behind her, give her a kiss on the back of the neck or something. She's a fan of me running my hand up the base of her skull, pulling her hair right a bit back at me and turning her head to give me a kiss or whatever on the way out the door. A good smack on the arse, and "see ya later, babe."

So, all that happens, no expectations that it'll turn into anything, ever. Just puts a big smile on her face. It makes her feel desired.

It typically leads to something later, but, at that point, it's her idea.

I think you need to find your thing(s) like this. Buying flowers, etc, is an implied "look what I did for you," as opposed to just doing something that makes her feel desired/appreciated without an implied contract for sex afterward.


----------



## MEM2020

Far,
The hardest thing for me to do - and I still have to make a conscious effort to do it is to say: I am not real happy at the moment nor inclined towards conversation. 

Just to be clear this is not an easy thing for M2 to hear but she’s learned that - attempting to force a conversation just produces a tilted head and then a brief head shake of disapproval. 

That said - it is not a great idea to radiate unhappiness or anger while denying you are upset. It is not just dishonest - it’s blatantly ‘in your face’ dishonesty. 

I think N2’s wife lies about her attraction level for him. If he wants honesty he has to give it. 

—————







farsidejunky said:


> I'm repeating myself. Here is the answer in what to do if she initiates.
> 
> Knock her socks off unless she is not into it, in which case you tell her no thank you.
> 
> In a cool, firm, dispassionate manner. No anger, even if that is what you feel.


----------



## Malaise

It seems to me:

She initiates every two weeks or so ? because she:

is horny herself 

or 

senses OP pulling away and wants to reel him in a bit.

The lack of daily intimacy is her default setting until one of the above.

My opinion FWIW


----------



## sokillme

MEM2020 said:


> Far,
> The hardest thing for me to do - and I still have to make a conscious effort to do it is to say: I am not real happy at the moment nor inclined towards conversation.
> 
> Just to be clear this is not an easy thing for M2 to hear but she’s learned that - attempting to force a conversation just produces a tilted head and then a brief head shake of disapproval.
> 
> That said - it is not a great idea to radiate unhappiness or anger while denying you are upset. It is not just dishonest - it’s blatantly ‘in your face’ dishonesty.
> 
> I think N2’s wife lies about her attraction level for him. If he wants honesty he has to give it.
> 
> —————


Agreed. If you are not saying how you feel you are not being a good spouse.


----------



## Herschel

ButtPunch said:


> The 180 is for people who have been cheated on looking to detach.
> 
> I don't think the 180 is what you need to do.
> 
> Nothing wrong with pulling back and doing things for yourself however.
> 
> But if she wants to talk you talk.
> 
> She wants to bang you rock her world.


I can’t disagree more. Well, I could, but that would be an annoying post.

The 180 is simply for anyone who is mired in a relationship that they don’t want to deal with anymore, but still love the person in the relationship. 

You just have to know whether you have gotten to he point where you want out of the relationship feelings about your spouse aside. At that point, you have to detach. You have to undo your codependency (which most of us have in any marriage) and your reliance on their emotional and physical impact on you. I don’t think it has anything to do with cheating, just any scenario where you know that continuing this relationship is going to only be a net negative for you.


----------



## farsidejunky

How did last night go, brother?


----------



## MEM2020

Mr. N, 

Folks are NOT generally saying it is all or nothing. There is some highly standardized ‘nice guy’ circuitry. That circuitry makes it very hard for ‘nice guys’ to hear options that empower them. 

So the classic nice guy gets 98 posts suggesting some version of prioritizing themselves more. And they get 2 posts suggesting they do something extremely aggressive like threaten divorce or full 180. And the result is they fixate on the two and ignore the ninety eight. This comes out in posts like yours below or the one where you said: so I guess it’s divorce or nothing

—————. 
Being physically less present is a very good thing. 

Being pissy / quietly angry / passive aggressively quiet - are very bad things. 

When you are together and she wants to talk, engage, be playful or light hearted. Be fun to be around. And be around less. 

Happy folk are irresistible, angry folk are not so lovable. 





MrNobody said:


> To clarify what I said above, I guess I felt like people were saying half measures won't going to work for this, that it was more all or nothing.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

To answer the original question: If she initiates, I would go along with it. However, you should look at it as an opportunity for her to prove herself to you and get back into your good graces. That is, you should not be so actively engaged in lovemaking. Take it slow and do not aggressively pursue her. Let her be the one on top for most of it, while you sit back and enjoy. Don't perform any special "services" for her pleasure--make it more about YOU and your pleasure. The next day, don't treat her any better or worse than you did the previous day. Just continue to practice your independence and focus on your own fulfillment in activities that don't necessarily involve her.


----------



## Anastasia6

Ok so I slogged my way through 18 pages. 

First I think me and Lila are the only girls to respond.
Second whatever you do don't follow the above advice to sit back and have her service you.


----------



## Anastasia6

Sorry I had to put the phone down to have sex with my husband.

As I was saying, a few years ago my husband and I were similar. I was in mommy mode though he wasn't as frustrated nor did he bother to talk to me.

My observations are when you to are alone and go away you have Sex is it duty sex? You see this is when she is most able to break mommy mode. When you have sex what does that entail? Do you know her love language? Do you guys spend at least 15 hours of quality time together outside of having sex. She obviously cares for you and has you on her radar because even when you don't say anything she can tell something is wrong and asks you about it.

It sounds like a combination of her doing a lot, being stuck in mommy mode, putting you on her to do list, and possibly like many many women she fine sex "meh". Most men and many women don't seem to know the dark secret that many women don't have regular orgasms. If when you had sex you didn't orgasm would it be top of your list?

Of course maybe I'm wrong and acting disinterested will win her heart. Or treating her like a ***** and expecting her to service you without any special attention to her during sex.


----------



## MEM2020

This is not a hard situation to make a call on. It is going badly. 

First off, Mr. N doesn’t seem to fully understand WHY he feels so bad. The reason he feels bad is simply because there is a large imbalance of love and effort in the marriage. 

And he has been tried several counterproductive approaches to improve balance: first by complaining and then by crowding her with excessive attention/kindness. 

His latest move is to act unfriendly, and then freeze her out of interaction. All while telling her he feels fine - which is clearly deceptive and understandably is agitating her. 

This is straight up manipulation and won’t work over time. 

He ought to just be transparent and tell her: I need to focus more on me and what I think and believe. That is going to require me doing more things independently. 

If she fights him on this he can add: I am not doing this TO you, I am doing it FOR me. 

—————-
His problem is going to be easily described and not so easily solved. As soon as she resumes anything resembling a normal sex life he’s gonna go back to whatever he was doing caused this problem in the first place....





farsidejunky said:


> How did last night go, brother?


----------



## farsidejunky

Mem, he has been here a week. 

How long did it take me to get it? Truly get it?

At least three years to put my foot down with my wife...

At least two months to alter the trajectory...

At least six months to gain control of my anger...

At least a year to understand that I was doing it for me and not to her...

Let's keep some perspective in patience.


----------



## MEM2020

Far,
That’s fair. I am partly speaking up because what he is describing doing is going to push the needle in the opposite direction to where he wants it to go. 

And with you - it always felt like you were making progress. 




farsidejunky said:


> Mem, he has been here a week.
> 
> How long did it take me to get it? Truly get it?
> 
> At least three years to put my foot down with my wife...
> 
> At least two months to alter the trajectory...
> 
> At least six months to gain control of my anger...
> 
> At least a year to understand that I was doing it for me and not to her...
> 
> Let's keep some perspective in patience.


----------



## anchorwatch

A precarious position to be in for an extended period of time. With an outcome directly related to the time, it takes to realize it's you, not her.

Are you getting any of this @MrNobody


----------



## MrNobody

First of all, thanks for all the thoughtful responses, and thanks to Lila and and anestasia for providing female perspective.

I took a few days off from this thread because my head was spinning, trying to process the pages of suggestions and perspectives. I was confused, angry, sad....

But then something happened when I walked in the door Thursday night. I just decided to be happy and fun... out of nowhere. On Friday, went home, took my oldest to his sports activity and out to dinner, just the dudes. Then I went home, put my kids to bed and went out with a friend for a drink, leaving my wife with a book on the couch. Saturday, took the kids out all morning so wife could get hair done, then played with them all afternoon to give wife some space. No ulterior motive, just enjoyed it. Dinner and movie with wife that night, but nothing past that. Sunday just kept up the happiness. I wasn't seeing physical affection results per se, but I could sense my wife's increased happiness, and we were chatting and laughing more.

On a side note, three year old daughter was having a rough weekend due to medical condition, so that was a sort of ongoing stressor in the background....

Last night, we watched tv together before bed. Right as I was about to go to sleep, wife said "you've been really patient, I want you to know that I know that, and I want to soon, but I'm a little spent after this weekend right now..." I told her that I had no expectations and was looking forward to when "we" we're both interested in being together, and that I loved her.


----------



## anchorwatch

Good first step. Keep moving in that direction. Towards that place where you both can stand. 

Patience over temper...

Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk


----------



## MrNobody

Okay, so after a nice couple of days of laying the groundwork for moving forward, and a promising end to the weekend when wife brought it up unprompted, I just have to vent....

Now, as a disclaimer, I do not "blame" my wife, per se, for what I'm about to say... But I will explain why this is so damn frustrating, and I imagine other men in similar situation will feel my pain.

So after wife tells me last night how patient I've been, and that she acknowledges and appreciates it, and that it will be resolved soon, when I get home today my wife hits me with "I feel all achy and I think I'm getting sick..." Daughter has been sick, so this doesn't surprise me...

This is why her waiting two weeks all the time is so damn frustrating... Because, we're now going on three weeks, and just when I think things are going my way, now she's sick. Next week, it will be her period... Just like that, we're going on five weeks.

Again, before I get roasted here from the women, I don't blame her and she can't help it, but it's so damn frustrating that it's never a priority, and finally I'm getting somewhere, then something else comes up out of her control like getting sick, and then another thing.... It's so crazy how two weeks can turn into five or six in the snap of a finger.

But, I shook it off, kept a happy face on, told her I felt bad for her, and went about my business. Gotta be patient, I guess. Venting here rather than sulking in front of the wife helps.


----------



## farsidejunky

It happens. It happened when we were rekindling, and it still happens.

It used to hurt, frustrate me, piss me off, etc.

A more important question is this:

Are you hurt because of the lack of sex, or hurt due to the lack of prioritization?

I would tell you that when I was in your current state, I wanted sex with her almost nightly.

We now average about once a week and I am okay with it most weeks.

What changed? How I feel about the situation changed. Why? Because she does other things for me that she never used to do, and I have found things more interesting than her.

All of that said, if she stopped sex but continued the other stuff, she would see me about 10 minutes a week and not get a bit of help from me in the acts of service department.

But I am okay with that possibility as well, because I have interesting things I can be doing.


----------



## MrNobody

farsidejunky said:


> It happens. It happened when we were rekindling, and it still happens.
> 
> It used to hurt, frustrate me, piss me off, etc.
> 
> A more important question is this:
> *
> Are you hurt because of the lack of sex, or hurt due to the lack of prioritization?*
> 
> I would tell you that when I was in your current state, I wanted sex with her almost nightly.
> 
> We now average about once a week and I am okay with it most weeks.
> 
> What changed? How I feel about the situation changed. Why? Because she does other things for me that she never used to do, and I have found things more interesting than her.
> 
> All of that said, if she stopped sex but continued the other stuff, she would see me about 10 minutes a week and not get a bit of help from me in the acts of service department.
> 
> But I am okay with that possibility as well, because I have interesting things I can be doing.


I'm annoyed due to the lack of sex BECAUSE she doesn't prioritize it. Like I said before, something always has the ability to pop up, so if you don't want to make time for it when you're able, you can't always count on the time always being right when you're finally willing.

I read a quote from somebody on this forum that resonated with me.... "the conditions being right for sex in my house are comparable to what needs to happen for a space shuttle launch."

It's so effing true.


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## farsidejunky

MrNobody said:


> I'm annoyed due to the lack of sex BECUSE she doesn't prioritize it. Like I said before, something always has the ability to pop up, so if you don't want to make time for it when you're able, you can't always count on the time always being right when you're finally willing.
> 
> I read a quote from somebody on this forum that resonated with me.... "the conditions being right for sex in my house are comparable to what needs to happen for a space shuttle launch."
> 
> It's so effing true.


Heh, yeah, I remember those days. To continue the analogy, you probably also have a tendency to watch every tenth of a second pass on the launch clock as well.

This is not rhetorical...how long will you continue to deliver a high level of service to her with a lackluster sex life?


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## MrNobody

farsidejunky said:


> Heh, yeah, I remember those days. To continue the analogy, you probably also have a tendency to watch every tenth of a second pass on the launch clock as well.
> 
> This is not rhetorical...how long will you continue to deliver a high level of service to her with a lackluster sex life?


 I know now that what you say is true. I was up thinking last night, I didn't always used to be this way. I was very, very independent. We both were. But then, for a period of time, wife started rejecting for whatever reason. I'm sure it wasn't meant to be hurtful, as life gets stressful and ebbs and flows. However, it was, and that string of rejection flipped a switch inside of me, and now here I am. No idea how I got here, but here I am. What was funny to me, was that my wife inadvertently created this. And now she doesn't quite get her role in this, and is annoyed on some level I'm sure that I am this way, and now I'm left holding the bag to solve it.

I saw results this past weekend. Encouraging enough to continue, and I'll try to minimize the setbacks and anger and just focus on finding me again.


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## farsidejunky

MrNobody said:


> I know now that what you say is true. I was up thinking last night, I didn't always used to be this way. I was very, very independent. We both were. But then, for a period of time, wife started rejecting for whatever reason. I'm sure it wasn't meant to be hurtful, as life gets stressful and ebbs and flows. However, it was, and that string of rejection flipped a switch inside of me, and now here I am. No idea how I got here, but here I am. What was funny to me, was that my wife inadvertently created this. And now she doesn't quite get her role in this, and is annoyed on some level I'm sure that I am this way, and now I'm left holding the bag to solve it.
> 
> I saw results this past weekend. Encouraging enough to continue, and I'll try to minimize the setbacks and anger and just focus on finding me again.


She did not create this on her own. You had a role in it as well. 

Your job is to find what you contributed to the dynamic to lead to the current situation, even if it is 1/10th of 1%.

Blaming her for the situation is planting your ass in the victim chair, and helps nobody. 

Read this:

https://www.lynneforrest.com/articles/2008/06/the-faces-of-victim/


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