# Indirect gaslighting



## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

A Message To Women From A Man: You Are Not “Crazy” | The Current Conscience

I've seen a lot of this in the workplace, and ... elsewhere.
Anyone else


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Great article. Dr. Nerdlove wrote a very similar one that was posted in lots of other media...here's one version of it:

Men really need to stop calling women crazy - The Washington Post

From the article:

“Crazy” is such a convenient word for men, perpetuating our sense of superiority. Men are logical; women are emotional. Emotion is the antithesis of logic. When women are too emotional, we say they are being irrational. Crazy. Wrong.

Women hear it all the time from men. “You’re overreacting,” we tell them. “Don’t worry about it so much, you’re over-thinking it.” “Don’t be so sensitive.” “Don’t be crazy.” It’s a form of gaslighting — telling women that their feelings are just wrong, that they don’t have the right to feel the way that they do. Minimizing somebody else’s feelings is a way of controlling them. If they no longer trust their own feelings and instincts, they come to rely on someone else to tell them how they’re supposed to feel.

Small wonder that abusers love to use this c-word. It’s a way of delegitimizing a woman’s authority over her own life.

Many men are socialized to be disconnected from our emotions — the only manly feelings we’re supposed to show are stoic silence or anger. We’re taught that to be emotional is to be feminine. As a result, we barely have a handle on our own emotions — meaning that we’re especially ill-equipped at dealing with someone else’s.

That’s where “crazy” comes in. It’s the all-purpose argument ender. Your girlfriend is upset that you didn’t call when you were going to be late? She’s being irrational. She wants you to spend time with her instead of out with the guys again? She’s being clingy. Your wife doesn’t like the long hours you’re spending with your attractive co-worker? She’s being oversensitive.

As soon as the “crazy” card is in play, women are put on the defensive. It derails the discussion from what she’s saying to how she’s saying it. We insist that someone can’t be emotional and rational at the same time, so she has to prove that she’s not being irrational. Anything she says to the contrary can just be used as evidence against her.

More often than not, I suspect, most men don’t realize what we’re saying when we call a woman crazy. Not only does it stigmatize people who have legitimate mental health issues, but it tells women that they don’t understand their own emotions, that their very real concerns and issues are secondary to men’s comfort. And it absolves men from having to take responsibility for how we make others feel.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Also, it isn't really indirect gaslighting, it is direct. 

It is an attempt to shut a woman down instead of actually hearing her.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Of course when she finally has enough and leaves he can claim he had no idea and never saw it coming. 

And if she finds another guy that's even better because then nothing is his fault and any complaint she has can be written off as her rewriting history.

Even if she hasn't it won't matter because the only reason women leave is for other men so she must be cheating, re-enforcing the notion that it's not his fault. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

What a great post and article! I totally agree with you Faithful Wife. 

Myself, I am quite sensitive and over time (and through a painful divorce), I have learned to be more sensitive to womens' emotions. I was a horrible listener once upon a time. If I can learn, so can other men. All it takes is a little faith and a little elbow grease (pun!!!).

I wouldn't label it just men though. I think everybody can be insensitive, lack empathy or be a poor listener.

I strive daily to destroy my ego through meditation, exercise and other practices. While I only make friends with like-minded ppl, you should see the silly arguments "men" get in that I am often a witness to. I know so many guys that it's almost like life is just one giant pissing contest for them. Makes me sick. I've seen men fight over salt. Ridiculous. 

There is a redundancy, however, because there are a lot of good guys out there and a lot of women just don't give them a chance due to fear (and emotions getting in the way). Being 5'5ft, a nice and understanding guy (usually), the old "nice guy" stigma is quite typical. It makes me sad because I have a lot to offer and pretty much every day I see a woman breakup with some 6ft macho jerk. I have my life in check and things are going very well for me (money, fit, house, looks etc...). So far in my experiences, the number one reason for rejection is my height, and that makes me really sad. 

Most men have no freaking idea how emotional women are. I only have a clue (and the slightest if I may add) thanks to the sheer honesty of my ex-wife. I for one 100% believe that every single male when they turn 15-16 years old should be given a book that explains the basic differences. I am dead serious. I honestly would be scared if I was reminded of my mortality every single month. That's like as if my penis was bleeding. ****ing scary!!!!! 

I hate to say this...indirect gaslighting is real, but it could always be worse. Go to India or Jerusalem and take a look at how women are treated! Despicable. But just as there egoistical mindless, ****-driven apes, there are crazy, self-serving gold-digging *****es out there. I've dated a few, but I would never ever ever call a level-headed woman crazy. (Yes there are mentally unstable people and that's pretty much the definition of crazy). On that note, I actually have met guys who admit in playing psychological games with women to get numbers. It's disgusting. Even if I am single my whole life, I will never stoop to that level. I love women and I respect them so much. 

The Aeon of Horus has arrived, and women shall take power soon.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

pragmaster said:


> .....
> There is a redundancy, however, because there are a lot of good guys out there and a lot of women just don't give them a chance due to fear (and emotions getting in the way). *Being 5'5ft, a nice and understanding guy (usually), the old "nice guy" stigma is quite typical. It makes me sad because I have a lot to offer and pretty much every day I see a woman breakup with some 6ft macho jerk. I have my life in check and things are going very well for me (money, fit, house, looks etc...). So far in my experiences, the number one reason for rejection is my height, and that makes me really sad. *
> 
> ...............


You sounds like a really decent man. Height is not an issue to me, I married a man your height, shame he does not have your level of EQ or we would not have divorced.
I have re partnered with a man 6'3" but not because he is tall. 

A man's height is not an issue for all women, shorter, in shape men can very very sexy.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

My father was 5'5". Great man, I miss him every day.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Mine was, too. My mom was a tiny pixie type person and they fit together perfectly.

Also there's a poster here named Personal and another one named samyeager...both who are around your height and both who've had great luck with da ladies. Perhaps they will be by to share their experiences.


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## optimalprimus (Feb 4, 2015)

I don't agree that we should retire the word crazy - PC gone too far for me.

But I agree that men should try to empathise more with what each women is saying/showing rather than making out it is because of some gender-special condition that they need to shut down.

PMT is prossibly an exception but lets not go there!

One of my male friends is often described by others as 'thinking like a girl'. I don't particularly agree or like this - he's just soneone who is sensitive and sometimes over analyses situations.

That said (I'm contradicting myself lots in this post!) it maybe comes from gendered group dynamics, where there do seem to be some significant differences, socially conditioned or not.


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## optimalprimus (Feb 4, 2015)

Its OT, but my work place is big on equality. However, I have been disgusted at how a few short men have been referred to (by men and women). "little louis", "aw bless him he's just out of school".

er how about Louis the guy that is v good at his job, where height is totally irrelevant.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

optimalprimus said:


> Its OT, but my work place is big on equality. However, I have been disgusted at how a few short men have been referred to (by men and women). "little louis", "aw bless him he's just out of school".
> 
> er how about Louis the guy that is v good at his job, where height is totally irrelevant.


Nobody would ever have referred to my dad that way. He demanded respect.


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## optimalprimus (Feb 4, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> Nobody would ever have referred to my dad that way. He demanded respect.


I get you, but people who are short, (or black, or female!) shouldn't have to demand respect it should be considered automatic.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Ironically, I found my exH very emotional. Those whom he called his closest friends were rude, arrogant, regularly put him in the one down position.. and of course, as I was his wife, I was down there too. 

I felt that I was far more rational in terms of judging people and considering those who are friends based on rational give and take between us. Not because they came from some prominent family or had some big job somewhere.

It's not just male partners who throw around the "crazy" card. My mother quite often told me that I need professional help. she felt that she didn't need it. Now that I hardly speak to her, she doesn't suggest it all anymore.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Speaking of Crazy.....Maybe a better word to use is dysfunctional when others behaviors *DO* contribute to communication break downs & such.. whether male or female..come on...it's pretty common on both sides !... Every one of us appreciates dealing with rational (logical) and empathetic people who are good listeners not flying off the handle or shutting us down with passive aggressiveness....that can rationally SEE the other person's point of view.. and agree to disagree in a kind way. 

I have a GF , for instance, don't see her too much anymore -leaning on me TOO MUCH for support when frankly -I think she needed mental help.. she'd bounce like a YO YO -and her BF has broken up with her like 15 times over 5 yrs.. we think they're both CRAZY [email protected]# .. it never surprises us anyone to hear if they are broke up OR back together! 

Or again... the word is *dysfunctional*..... she because of the baggage she carries / lack of trust /suspiciousness due to her 1st husband's abuse >> a male chauvinist cheater, manipulator...... and this BF for coming back for more ...accusing him of lying, she'll take the smallest thing he says and BLOW it up into mountainous proportions...after he's sworn "never again, it's over"...

She calls me crying ...why doesn't he love her- basically she needs to add "enough to put up with all my sh**"... she'll moan.." if he loved me, he'd stand by me" ....but then in the next breathe she's going on how he is a LIAR...wanting me to agree with her -then she gets mad at me!!......and he's called me saying she's going to give him another heart attack ...

I much appreciate Called ID these days..

This is a good model...


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

pragmaster said:


> Being 5'5ft, a nice and understanding guy (usually), *the old "nice guy" stigma is quite typical*. It makes me sad because I have a lot to offer and pretty much every day I see a woman breakup with some 6ft macho jerk. I have my life in check and things are going very well for me (money, fit, house, looks etc...). *So far in my experiences, the number one reason for rejection is my height,* and that makes me really sad.



I am 100% sure it is not!

It is the 'nice guy' thing!

Women like to see a man that is able to fight for what he wants. The most miserable sight is a big man shying away for a challenge, the second a small man doing the same.

The most impressive is the small man fighting the bigger challenge against all odds. Not the result is attractive for a woman, *it is the spirit*.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

Indirect gaslighting sounds like you hire someone to do the gaslighting for you. Very much like when you go to MC and find that the counselor sides with your spouse and tells you that it's all your fault while disregarding very crucial and important information.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Dogbert said:


> Indirect gaslighting sounds like you hire someone to do the gaslighting for you. Very much like when you go to MC and find that the counselor sides with your spouse and tells you that it's all your fault while disregarding very crucial and important information.


Now Dogbert, be careful because you almost sound like my ex, except I find you much more reasonable. Honestly (and completely unrelated to you), we did try MC for a list of problems we were having, and all before I discovered he was a serial cheater. I was unwilling to deal with his anger, and increasingly aggressive outbursts. Seems his depression had developed into psychosis with paranoia, but hadn't been diagnosed previously. To me, this explained a lot. He didn't see it that way and wanted to continue to argue that I had become overly sensitive and had no right to be afraid. He saw my "unreasonable fear" as the cause of our problems. So he saw MC as blaming him for our problems and refused to continue.

I see the indirect gas-lighting as a mechanism used to attempt to minimize the arguments or positions of people, and in my experience as a female its been mostly by men and mostly applied to women, although clearly it can apply in lots of different situations. For instance, men make a forceful argument and they are often applauded for their strength of their convictions. Women make a forceful argument and they're told "Why are you getting yourself so worked up, calm down, go have fun."

Its dismissive.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

Pluto2 said:


> Now Dogbert, be careful because you almost sound like my ex, except I find you much more reasonable. Honestly (and completely unrelated to you), we did try MC for a list of problems we were having, and all before I discovered he was a serial cheater. I was unwilling to deal with his anger, and increasingly aggressive outbursts. Seems his depression had developed into psychosis with paranoia, but hadn't been diagnosed previously. To me, this explained a lot. He didn't see it that way and wanted to continue to argue that I had become overly sensitive and had no right to be afraid. He saw my "unreasonable fear" as the cause of our problems. So he saw MC as blaming him for our problems and refused to continue.
> 
> I see the indirect gas-lighting as a mechanism used to attempt to minimize the arguments or positions of people, and in my experience as a female its been mostly by men and mostly applied to women, although clearly it can apply in lots of different situations. For instance, men make a forceful argument and they are often applauded for their strength of their convictions. Women make a forceful argument and they're told "Why are you getting yourself so worked up, calm down, go have fun."
> 
> Its dismissive.


No worries P2 I see what you mean, though the term did bring images of a BS like you or me getting exclusively faulted for the marital problems while ignoring those by our WS, including the 2 ton pachyderm in the living room.


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