# Considering divorce



## 343664

Hi everyone,

I’ve been married for just over 8 years. My wife and I have been together for 10 years all up and we have two children (6 &3).

For about the last 18-24 months things have not been great between us. The intimacy, the flame has long since gone. We may have sex once every 6-8 weeks, in fact, I can’t remember the last time we did and when we do it’s pretty mundane and boring. We don’t talk, unless it’s about how each other’s day was, or how the kids are. And to be honest, when I look back at our relationship I can honestly say that it is not a partnership; I for one do not believe I am treated as an equal in this marriage.

Whilst I have had that nagging feeling that things have not been working well and that I am not happy in the marriage for that 18-24 month period, life has always been so busy with work and the kids, seeing family and friends. But with the lockdown it has given me time to reflect, whilst things between my wife have gotten worse!

Deep down I am pretty sure I want out of this marriage, that it is has run its course and it is time for a new chapter in our lives. But it is such a huge, life changing event and will impact others, most importantly my children. But then again, if my wife and I stay together then the kids are going to continue being brought up in an environment where they think this kind of relationship is ‘normal’. Whilst we are in lockdown nothing is going to happen, but when things start to get back to some form of normality I want to be ready to act.

Has anyone been throw this before? Any advice?


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## EleGirl

Sounds like the 7 year itch. It's real.

Have you talked to your wife about all this?

It does not seem that there are any big problems in your relationship. Instead you two have drifted apart. Like many couples, you have not been focused on maintaining a strong relationship.

Two books that would help you rekindle the love and passion are: "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs". They are written by Dr. Harley. Read them in that order and do the work that they suggest. Then ask your wife to read them with you and do the work together with you and do the work.

You might also benefit from the two of you going to marriage counseling together.

My suggestion is that you try to rekindle your relationship before giving up on it. Give it 6 months. If things are not significantly better in 6 months, then filing for divorce makes sense. If it's getting better, give it another 6 months; and so forth.

How many hours a week do you and your wife spend together in quality time, just the two of you?


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## Bobbyjo

EleGirl said:


> Sounds like the 7 year itch. It's real.
> 
> Have you talked to your wife about all this?
> 
> It does not seem that there are any big problems in your relationship. Instead you two have drifted apart. Like many couples, you have not been focused on maintaining a strong relationship.
> 
> Two books that would help you rekindle the love and passion are: "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs". They are written by Dr. Harley. Read them in that order and do the work that they suggest. Then ask your wife to read them with you and do the work together with you and do the work.
> 
> You might also benefit from the two of you going to marriage counseling together.
> 
> My suggestion is that you try to rekindle your relationship before giving up on it. Give it 6 months. If things are not significantly better in 6 months, then filing for divorce makes sense. If it's getting better, give it another 6 months; and so forth.
> 
> How many hours a week do you and your wife spend together in quality time, just the two of you?





Londoner81 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I’ve been married for just over 8 years. My wife and I have been together for 10 years all up and we have two children (6 &3).
> 
> For about the last 18-24 months things have not been great between us. The intimacy, the flame has long since gone. We may have sex once every 6-8 weeks, in fact, I can’t remember the last time we did and when we do it’s pretty mundane and boring. We don’t talk, unless it’s about how each other’s day was, or how the kids are. And to be honest, when I look back at our relationship I can honestly say that it is not a partnership; I for one do not believe I am treated as an equal in this marriage.
> 
> Whilst I have had that nagging feeling that things have not been working well and that I am not happy in the marriage for that 18-24 month period, life has always been so busy with work and the kids, seeing family and friends. But with the lockdown it has given me time to reflect, whilst things between my wife have gotten worse!
> 
> Deep down I am pretty sure I want out of this marriage, that it is has run its course and it is time for a new chapter in our lives. But it is such a huge, life changing event and will impact others, most importantly my children. But then again, if my wife and I stay together then the kids are going to continue being brought up in an environment where they think this kind of relationship is ‘normal’. Whilst we are in lockdown nothing is going to happen, but when things start to get back to some form of normality I want to be ready to act.
> 
> Has anyone been throw this before? Any advice?


I can relate. I’ve been married for 22 years and for a long time my husband and I had more of a business partnership than anything else. We have two children and we almost did divorce 4 years ago. We drifted apart and the connection died from the time major adult responsibilities like mortgages, raising a family came into play. All I can tell you is that my kids were lost, angry, confused and devastated at the time when we were splitting up. All normal feelings...but heartbreaking since as children they don’t get a say in their adult parents lives. That was the lesson I learned. It’s much more than me and my happiness that matters. I also learned that I’m responsible for my own happiness...no one else! Upon major reflection at the time, I was able to look back and see my poor attitude and discovered that it was no longer the person I wanted to be. I was miserable before by depending on others to make me happy. It’s an inside job that needs an overhaul buddy. Also, consider the fact that the world we live in revolves around work and acquisitions and with everything going on we are being forced to change into a gear that is completely out of the ordinary. That in itself causes a lot of anguish.


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## 343664

EleGirl said:


> Sounds like the 7 year itch. It's real.
> 
> Have you talked to your wife about all this?
> 
> It does not seem that there are any big problems in your relationship. Instead you two have drifted apart. Like many couples, you have not been focused on maintaining a strong relationship.
> 
> Two books that would help you rekindle the love and passion are: "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs". They are written by Dr. Harley. Read them in that order and do the work that they suggest. Then ask your wife to read them with you and do the work together with you and do the work.
> 
> You might also benefit from the two of you going to marriage counseling together.
> 
> My suggestion is that you try to rekindle your relationship before giving up on it. Give it 6 months. If things are not significantly better in 6 months, then filing for divorce makes sense. If it's getting better, give it another 6 months; and so forth.
> 
> How many hours a week do you and your wife spend together in quality time, just the two of you?


Thanks for your advice. Like I said, it has been this way for 18-24 months. What would giving it another 6 months achieve? I mean, if the passion has long gone and we are like two ships passing in the night - and that is even in the current lockdown environment too, wouldn’t dragging this out just to more harm than good?

Both my wife and I know there are problems, you would have to be completely off point not to be able to pick up on the vibe in the relationship, yet neither of us are focussed on fixing things. People change right?


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## 343664

Bobbyjo said:


> I can relate. I’ve been married for 22 years and for a long time my husband and I had more of a business partnership than anything else. We have two children and we almost did divorce 4 years ago. We drifted apart and the connection died from the time major adult responsibilities like mortgages, raising a family came into play. All I can tell you is that my kids were lost, angry, confused and devastated at the time when we were splitting up. All normal feelings...but heartbreaking since as children they don’t get a say in their adult parents lives. That was the lesson I learned. It’s much more than me and my happiness that matters. I also learned that I’m responsible for my own happiness...no one else! Upon major reflection at the time, I was able to look back and see my poor attitude and discovered that it was no longer the person I wanted to be. I was miserable before by depending on others to make me happy. It’s an inside job that needs an overhaul buddy. Also, consider the fact that the world we live in revolves around work and acquisitions and with everything going on we are being forced to change into a gear that is completely out of the ordinary. That in itself causes a lot of anguish.


I’m not sure I agree that it’s about more than me and my happiness. Surely everyone has a right to be happy, no?


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## notmyjamie

Well, he said to give it six months of making a real effort to change things. Gave you some books to read on the subject. The last thing you want is uproot your children's lives without even attempting to fix things and then a year from now wish you had tried harder. 

Start by ordering the books online. Nothing can hurt from doing some reading during lockdown. You might learn something.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

OP,

Are you looking for validation of you're bored and it's ok for you to leave?

The kind folks here will want and rightly so, more information on your M.

And there's no automatic agreement with an OP, as a rule.

Some info is detailed right off the bat for advice to be forthcoming, some situations need a little more background. 

Sorry you're going through these troubling times. Share what you're comfortable with, and more detailed comments are forthcoming I'm sure.


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## Bobbyjo

Londoner81 said:


> I’m not sure I agree that it’s about more than me and my happiness. Surely everyone has a right to be happy, no?


Yes everyone deserves happiness. Happiness is defined differently for everyone. All I can say is happiness for me is from within and not through material gain or through people. Human beings are exactly that human beings and everyone makes mistakes, myself included. So...I now understand that relying on people or things for one to happy is not the answer. People disappoint. And sometimes expectations can be unrealistic. We live in a world that I believe has a lot of power of influence. Some good things and some not so good. The bottom line for comes down to choice. Everyone is responsible for their own choices in life and some are good and some are not. I am a spiritual person who has decided to put my trust and faith in the unfailing love of Jesus-Christ.


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## BluesPower

Londoner81 said:


> Thanks for your advice. Like I said, it has been this way for 18-24 months. What would giving it another 6 months achieve? I mean, if the passion has long gone and we are like two ships passing in the night - and that is even in the current lockdown environment too, wouldn’t dragging this out just to more harm than good?
> 
> Both my wife and I know there are problems, you would have to be completely off point not to be able to pick up on the vibe in the relationship, yet neither of us are focussed on fixing things. People change right?


Not to put too fine a point on it... But you were asked if you had REALLY TALKED about it with your wife.

That means, not going through the motions, but really having a talk. Like, "Wife, I really feel like I am done with the marriage. We have no spark, we don't have good sex anymore, if we ever did. I am just not feeling it.

Is there a reason that I should not file for divorce? Or are you interested in trying to fix this?"

That kind of true honest talk... Maybe you have been this blunt but your writing in this thead kind of tells my that is not your style.


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## 343664

You’re spot on! It hasn’t happened...yet. Whilst we’re in lockdown, I dare not risk the conversation going south and finding ourselves in an even worse situation whilst the lockdown is still in place. This conversation will be happening, don’t you worry.

You are also totally right that people will want more detail. Forgive me, but I am a novice when it comes to this 

As I mentioned, my wife and I have been married for 8 years, together all up over 10 years. 

We met on a ski trip, which I was a last min invite on by my then flatmate at the time. I had recently broken up with a girl I was seeing and thought a week away on the slopes would do me good. My wife and I got drunk and kissed on the 1st night and spent a lot of time together for the remainder of the week. After that things moved quickly. We moved in together after 6 months, engaged after 12 months and married just after 2 years of meeting.

From relatively early on in our marriage, I felt second best in our relationship due to things said by her about what she had done for me in terms of financial stability. She has always earned more than me and held more senior roles in her career, not that that bothered me, but being treated like my career, my goals and aspirations were less important did. There have been instances of double standards, such as if she has business trips to go on it is never even a discussion, it happens, I am left to juggle work and the kids, but when it comes to any trips I have then I she lays a serious guilt trip on me.

As I eluded to, there is also a lack of intimacy and passion. I am more often or not the one who initiates something, which I have simply got sick and tired of and like I said, it’s a bit dull. To be honest, it has been like that for most of our marriage but I guess I had gotten used to it. Now there is absolutely nothing. 

We also don’t talk, other than about how each other’s day is, or what the kids are up to, there is nothing else. You know what, I actually don’t even have the drive to talk to her about anything other than that stuff because it’s been that way for so long. It was our wedding anniversary last month and we didn’t even spend the evening together after dinner. I came down from having a shower and she was watching a new show in another room, when I was thinking it may be nice to watch a show together. I even hand made her an anniversary card, but I came away empty handed.

Anyway, I have probably rambled on a bit too much now lol. Hope that helps.


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## BluesPower

Londoner81 said:


> You’re spot on! It hasn’t happened...yet. Whilst we’re in lockdown, I dare not risk the conversation going south and finding ourselves in an even worse situation whilst the lockdown is still in place. This conversation will be happening, don’t you worry.
> 
> You are also totally right that people will want more detail. Forgive me, but I am a novice when it comes to this
> 
> As I mentioned, my wife and I have been married for 8 years, together all up over 10 years.
> 
> We met on a ski trip, which I was a last min invite on by my then flatmate at the time. I had recently broken up with a girl I was seeing and thought a week away on the slopes would do me good. My wife and I got drunk and kissed on the 1st night and spent a lot of time together for the remainder of the week. After that things moved quickly. We moved in together after 6 months, engaged after 12 months and married just after 2 years of meeting.
> 
> From relatively early on in our marriage, I felt second best in our relationship due to things said by her about what she had done for me in terms of financial stability. She has always earned more than me and held more senior roles in her career, not that that bothered me, but being treated like my career, my goals and aspirations were less important did. There have been instances of double standards, such as if she has business trips to go on it is never even a discussion, it happens, I am left to juggle work and the kids, but when it comes to any trips I have then I she lays a serious guilt trip on me.
> 
> As I eluded to, there is also a lack of intimacy and passion. I am more often or not the one who initiates something, which I have simply got sick and tired of and like I said, it’s a bit dull. To be honest, it has been like that for most of our marriage but I guess I had gotten used to it. Now there is absolutely nothing.
> 
> We also don’t talk, other than about how each other’s day is, or what the kids are up to, there is nothing else. You know what, I actually don’t even have the drive to talk to her about anything other than that stuff because it’s been that way for so long. It was our wedding anniversary last month and we didn’t even spend the evening together after dinner. I came down from having a shower and she was watching a new show in another room, when I was thinking it may be nice to watch a show together. I even hand made her an anniversary card, but I came away empty handed.
> 
> Anyway, I have probably rambled on a bit too much now lol. Hope that helps.


Well, you def need to have the talk.

I'm going to give it to you straight. Women, no matter how evolved they think they are or what they say, women do not like to be the main bread winner.

I know lots of women will say different, ok... I have seen to too many times.

They start to resent their low earning husbands, right or wrong, and they lose respect. Further, you have let all of this go on too long, so you look even weaker to her. Because she knows a "Man" would not have taken the crap that she puts him through.

Honestly, she sounds like she I having an affair, but she could just be checked out of the marriage. My guess is when you have the talk, she will not want to save the marriage except to use you as a built in baby sitter.

But give it a shot so you can say that you did...


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## JayAlan

but being treated like my career, my goals and aspirations were less important did. There have been instances of double standards, such as if she has business trips to go on it is never even a discussion, it happens, I am left to juggle work and the kids, but when it comes to any trips I have then I she lays a serious guilt trip on me. 

She exhibits some traits of being a narcissist. Makes you feel less than, the double standard and guilt tripping you. Does it seem like she has more male friends than female? If she has female friends, does the relationship last long?


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## 343664

BluesPower said:


> Well, you def need to have the talk.
> 
> I'm going to give it to you straight. Women, no matter how evolved they think they are or what they say, women do not like to be the main bread winner.
> 
> I know lots of women will say different, ok... I have seen to too many times.
> 
> They start to resent their low earning husbands, right or wrong, and they lose respect. Further, you have let all of this go on too long, so you look even weaker to her. Because she knows a "Man" would not have taken the crap that she puts him through.
> 
> Honestly, she sounds like she I having an affair, but she could just be checked out of the marriage. My guess is when you have the talk, she will not want to save the marriage except to use you as a built in baby sitter.
> 
> But give it a shot so you can say that you did...


What makes you think she is having an affair? Tbh, if she was I don’t think I would care. Would just make the decision all the easier.


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## 343664

JayAlan said:


> but being treated like my career, my goals and aspirations were less important did. There have been instances of double standards, such as if she has business trips to go on it is never even a discussion, it happens, I am left to juggle work and the kids, but when it comes to any trips I have then I she lays a serious guilt trip on me.
> 
> She exhibits some traits of being a narcissist. Makes you feel less than, the double standard and guilt tripping you. Does it seem like she has more male friends than female? If she has female friends, does the relationship last long?


Her close knit friends are all female. Her best friend and my wife have been friends for a long time, well over 15 years or so. I know she revels in the hierarchy at work and likes to talk about how she’s on the thresholds of Exec level. Don’t get me wrong, I like that she is career driven, so am I.


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## 343664

Angelwanderer said:


> Londoner81,
> 
> Yep, been here. If it's not working, it's not working. Try counseling, give it some time, set a reasonable period to see if there's an improvement and, if there isn't, prepare an exit strategy.
> 
> Happy ever after may start at the end of a long term troubled marriage.
> 
> -A
> 
> Wrote a letter about a troubled marriage. It became a novel. It's mostly fiction _wink_ Love Hurts: When Breaking Up Is The Right Thing To Do


Thanks, very pragmatic advice. The talk will happen relatively soon after things have quietened down in the outside world, the kids are back to school and we’re at work etc. 

Would you advocate for counselling? I have read conflicting reports about its usefulness.


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## aine

Londoner81 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I’ve been married for just over 8 years. My wife and I have been together for 10 years all up and we have two children (6 &3).
> 
> For about the last 18-24 months things have not been great between us. The intimacy, the flame has long since gone. We may have sex once every 6-8 weeks, in fact, I can’t remember the last time we did and when we do it’s pretty mundane and boring. We don’t talk, unless it’s about how each other’s day was, or how the kids are. And to be honest, when I look back at our relationship I can honestly say that it is not a partnership; I for one do not believe I am treated as an equal in this marriage.
> 
> Whilst I have had that nagging feeling that things have not been working well and that I am not happy in the marriage for that 18-24 month period, life has always been so busy with work and the kids, seeing family and friends. But with the lockdown it has given me time to reflect, whilst things between my wife have gotten worse!
> 
> Deep down I am pretty sure I want out of this marriage, that it is has run its course and it is time for a new chapter in our lives. But it is such a huge, life changing event and will impact others, most importantly my children. But then again, if my wife and I stay together then the kids are going to continue being brought up in an environment where they think this kind of relationship is ‘normal’. Whilst we are in lockdown nothing is going to happen, but when things start to get back to some form of normality I want to be ready to act.
> 
> Has anyone been throw this before? Any advice?


Yes, everyone wants to be happy. Let me ask you a question

What do you do for your wife to bring her excitement, joy, love, energy every day? 
Have you actually spoken to her about any of this. You say you don't talk, then why don't you initiate it?
Seems to me like you are expecting her to do the heavy lifting. What have you been doing? As the head of the household don't you have at least the responsibility to put this on the table?
Divorce hurts not just you and your wife, it will have lasting repercussions for your kids.
Yes you may meet another exciting lover and believe me another 7-8 years down the road, it will be boring.
Marriage is hard work.


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## BluesPower

Londoner81 said:


> What makes you think she is having an affair? Tbh, if she was I don’t think I would care. Would just make the decision all the easier.


Kind of funny how you miss the main point of a lot of posts. 

She goes out of town for work, meeting with high level execs or at least working with them. She has the "Low Earning" husband at home to watch the house.

She could not care less about you, sex, or the marriage. 

She treats you like a babysitting appliance. 

I am not saying she is, but it would be completely common place. 

I do agree with one thing, why would you care, you don't really have a marriage to speak of. 

I think I said earlier that you should file for divorce...


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## 343664

aine said:


> Yes, everyone wants to be happy. Let me ask you a question
> 
> What do you do for your wife to bring her excitement, joy, love, energy every day?
> Have you actually spoken to her about any of this. You say you don't talk, then why don't you initiate it?
> Seems to me like you are expecting her to do the heavy lifting. What have you been doing? As the head of the household don't you have at least the responsibility to put this on the table?
> Divorce hurts not just you and your wife, it will have lasting repercussions for your kids.
> Yes you may meet another exciting lover and believe me another 7-8 years down the road, it will be boring.
> Marriage is hard work.


Thanks for your message. It’s reached a point where I have stopped initiating, because I have for so long and I would rather like to see my wife make an effort for once. Not sure if you read my earlier post, but on our recent wedding anniversary I hand made a card to give her, I received nothing. When it comes to sex, or physical contact overall, I am the one who initiates it. It was my wife’s 40th last year and I went to a huge amount of effort to celebrate and was hoping her and I would be able to go away and celebrate for a weekend away, when instead she went to Las Vegas with some close friends.

Personally I find your comment around “head of the household” to be rather outdated. Why should I be the one to put all the effort in?! A marriage a partnership surely and only works if both are all in.

As for your point around my kids. Let me turn this around; wouldn’t it be worse if they grow up in an environment where their parents are either arguing, not showing much affection to each other or even talking and they learn that is the way a relationship should be? I get the impression you think I am being selfish and thinking only of myself. You couldn’t be more wrong. If that was the case I would have done this a long time ago.


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## BluesPower

Londoner81 said:


> As for your point around my kids. Let me turn this around; wouldn’t it be worse if they grow up in an environment where their parents are either arguing, not showing much affection to each other or even talking and they learn that is the way a relationship should be? I get the impression you think I am being selfish and thinking only of myself. You couldn’t be more wrong. If that was the case I would have done this a long time ago.


This is one of the best things you have written... Do you want to model a passionless, unaffectionate, unloving relationship to your children. 

I would hope not, because lately that is all you have been modeling. Oh, and also conflict avoidance, codependence. 

All of these are bad things to model for children. A healthy relationship is what you want them to see, not the one they are seeing between you and your wife...


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## Tdbo

Londoner81 said:


> It was my wife’s 40th last year and I went to a huge amount of effort to celebrate and was hoping her and I would be able to go away and celebrate for a weekend away, when instead she went to Las Vegas with some close friends.


[/QUOTE]

This should have been the point where you threw your grenade in and went to war.
You need to take charge. It sounds like you are to passive and you have conditioned her to walk all over you.
She apparently has no respect for you. Her action demonstrated that she does not want to be with you.
What to do? I'd say you have two options:
OPTION ONE: Sit down and have the talk. Tell her that the two have become disconnected. Say that the both of you need to work on things together for the sake of your family and relationship. Have the books mentioned ready to go to show you are serious. Offer up counseling if you think she would be open to that. Gauge her reaction. She may be receptive. Somehow, I doubt it.
OPTION TWO: Shock and Awe. Go nuclear. Have the career girl served with divorce papers at her work. Obviously have your exit plan staged. See what happens. This could shock her into reassessing her priorities, and making meaningful adjustments. On the other hand, this could be the opening she has been waiting for to get out. Either way, you'll know where you stand.


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## Tdbo

Londoner81 said:


> You’re spot on! It hasn’t happened...yet. Whilst we’re in lockdown, I dare not risk the conversation going south and finding ourselves in an even worse situation whilst the lockdown is still in place. This conversation will be happening, don’t you worry.
> 
> You are also totally right that people will want more detail. Forgive me, but I am a novice when it comes to this
> 
> As I mentioned, my wife and I have been married for 8 years, together all up over 10 years.
> 
> We met on a ski trip, which I was a last min invite on by my then flatmate at the time. I had recently broken up with a girl I was seeing and thought a week away on the slopes would do me good. My wife and I got drunk and kissed on the 1st night and spent a lot of time together for the remainder of the week. After that things moved quickly. We moved in together after 6 months, engaged after 12 months and married just after 2 years of meeting.
> 
> From relatively early on in our marriage, I felt second best in our relationship due to things said by her about what she had done for me in terms of financial stability. She has always earned more than me and held more senior roles in her career, not that that bothered me, but being treated like my career, my goals and aspirations were less important did. There have been instances of double standards, such as if she has business trips to go on it is never even a discussion, it happens, I am left to juggle work and the kids, but when it comes to any trips I have then I she lays a serious guilt trip on me.
> 
> As I eluded to, there is also a lack of intimacy and passion. I am more often or not the one who initiates something, which I have simply got sick and tired of and like I said, it’s a bit dull. To be honest, it has been like that for most of our marriage but I guess I had gotten used to it. Now there is absolutely nothing.
> 
> We also don’t talk, other than about how each other’s day is, or what the kids are up to, there is nothing else. You know what, I actually don’t even have the drive to talk to her about anything other than that stuff because it’s been that way for so long. It was our wedding anniversary last month and we didn’t even spend the evening together after dinner. I came down from having a shower and she was watching a new show in another room, when I was thinking it may be nice to watch a show together. I even hand made her an anniversary card, but I came away empty handed.
> 
> Anyway, I have probably rambled on a bit too much now lol. Hope that helps.


Many times the saying "Man up!" is thrown about as a panacea.
This time, it is the crux of the problem here.
There is an imbalance of control in this relationship, and it favors her.
Your job should be equally as important as hers.
Your hopes, dreams, and aspirations should matter as much as hers.
She either likes being controlling and sees you as her servant, is checked out, or has a side piece.
All of the above should be unacceptable to you.
If you want to hold off due to current conditions, study up and implement the 180.
The 180 will give you time to form your strategy and get your crap together. I found that the reaction that you get from the wife provides guidance in developing the strategy.
Focus on being father of the year. The wife gets civil, short responses delivered in a cold as ice manner.
Regardless of whether or not you stay married, you need to develop agency in any relationship you are in.


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## 343664

BluesPower said:


> This is one of the best things you have written... Do you want to model a passionless, unaffectionate, unloving relationship to your children.
> 
> I would hope not, because lately that is all you have been modeling. Oh, and also conflict avoidance, codependence.
> 
> All of these are bad things to model for children. A healthy relationship is what you want them to see, not the one they are seeing between you and your wife...


Totally agree. I also feel like I am demonstrating the wrong behaviours with the kids even when my wife is around and I hate it.


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## 343664

This should have been the point where you threw your grenade in and went to war.
You need to take charge. It sounds like you are to passive and you have conditioned her to walk all over you.
She apparently has no respect for you. Her action demonstrated that she does not want to be with you.
What to do? I'd say you have two options:
OPTION ONE: Sit down and have the talk. Tell her that the two have become disconnected. Say that the both of you need to work on things together for the sake of your family and relationship. Have the books mentioned ready to go to show you are serious. Offer up counseling if you think she would be open to that. Gauge her reaction. She may be receptive. Somehow, I doubt it.
OPTION TWO: Shock and Awe. Go nuclear. Have the career girl served with divorce papers at her work. Obviously have your exit plan staged. See what happens. This could shock her into reassessing her priorities, and making meaningful adjustments. On the other hand, this could be the opening she has been waiting for to get out. Either way, you'll know where you stand.
[/QUOTE]

You’re right. I have been too passive. I guess that has kinda always been the way when I have been in a relationship. Like I said earlier, things moved very quickly when we first got together. I look back and wonder whether it was just that I liked being with someone and that it was reciprocated in such an intense way, as oppossed to there being genuine, pure love between us...

As I said, the talk is happening, at the appropriate time. For now, I will continue to read up, as well as preparing myself should the split need to happen.


----------



## 343664

Tdbo said:


> Many times the saying "Man up!" is thrown about as a panacea.
> This time, it is the crux of the problem here.
> There is an imbalance of control in this relationship, and it favors her.
> Your job should be equally as important as hers.
> Your hopes, dreams, and aspirations should matter as much as yours.
> She either likes being controlling and sees you as her servant, is checked out, or has a side piece.
> All of the above should be unacceptable to you.
> If you want to hold off due to current conditions, study up and implement the 180.
> The 180 will give you time to form your strategy and get your crap together. I found that the reaction that you get from the wife provides guidance in developing the strategy.
> Focus on being father of the year. The wife gets civil, short responses delivered in a cold as ice manner.
> Regardless of whether or not you stay married, you need to develop agency in any relationship you are in.


Thanks. Agree on all points made.


----------



## Marc878

It might do you some good to download and read “No More Mr Nice Guy” by Glover
its a free pdf and short.

its helped many. Give it a try.


----------



## 343664

Marc878 said:


> It might do you some good to download and read “No More Mr Nice Guy” by Glover
> its a free pdf and short.
> 
> its helped many. Give it a try.


Thanks. Will check it out. Do you have a link?


----------



## Anastasia6

Have you talked about your sex life with her? So for years the pattern was you initiate and then you stopped because you wanted her to do it. That's all fine and dandy but how does she know that versus you don't find her attractive anymore. And the world can get as enlightened as it wants but the majority of sex happens because men initiate. 

You don't seem like you want to save your marriage so really there isn't much point. 

Like Elle said. If you wanted to you'd get some marriage books maybe a counselor and you'd work on the issues not just hoping something was going to happen. So when you made her the card and was hoping something would happen (covert contract, Mr. Nice Guy) did you make a move? Or did you think well I made a card she'll make a move?


----------



## 343664

Anastasia6 said:


> Have you talked about your sex life with her? So for years the pattern was you initiate and then you stopped because you wanted her to do it. That's all fine and dandy but how does she know that versus you don't find her attractive anymore. And the world can get as enlightened as it wants but the majority of sex happens because men initiate.
> 
> You don't seem like you want to save your marriage so really there isn't much point.
> 
> Like Elle said. If you wanted to you'd get some marriage books maybe a counselor and you'd work on the issues not just hoping something was going to happen. So when you made her the card and was hoping something would happen (covert contract, Mr. Nice Guy) did you make a move? Or did you think well I made a card she'll make a move?


Thanks for your message. I get *some* of your points.

Point 1: Yes. We have discussed ‘mixing’ things up a bit, but in all honesty, it has always been a bit repetitive and dull, maybe there isn’t that great a sexual chemistry, well there certainly isn’t any more. Do I find my wife attractive now? I’m afraid not anymore. I haven’t for quite some time as harsh as that sounds.

Point 2: What makes you say I don’t want to save my marriage? That is an assumption. If I wasn’t wanting to make the effort, why would I be in here, asking for advice and guidance? 

Point 3: As you may be aware, we’re in lockdown due to the Coronavirus pandemic. Things like counsellors, even having “the talk” aren’t possible at the moment, I need to tred carefully and use this time wisely. As for making the card, hoping something would happen; please, I am not some teenage kid hoping to get laid. It was more to demonstrate that there is an imbalance between who is an effort and who is not in the marriage!


----------



## FamilyMan216

BluesPower said:


> This is one of the best things you have written... Do you want to model a passionless, unaffectionate, unloving relationship to your children.
> 
> I would hope not, because lately that is all you have been modeling. Oh, and also conflict avoidance, codependence.
> 
> All of these are bad things to model for children. A healthy relationship is what you want them to see, not the one they are seeing between you and your wife...


You also don’t want to set an example that bouncing from person to person is the way to go because things get tough. As an adult, you try to create a positive environment through communication and effort, before throwing in the towel.


----------



## Marc878

Londoner81 said:


> Thanks. Will check it out. Do you have a link?











Robert Glover No More Mr Nice Guy : Robert Glover : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive


Self Help



archive.org


----------



## Yeswecan

Londoner81 said:


> Thanks for your advice. Like I said, it has been this way for 18-24 months. What would giving it another 6 months achieve? I mean, if the passion has long gone and we are like two ships passing in the night - and that is even in the current lockdown environment too, wouldn’t dragging this out just to more harm than good?
> 
> Both my wife and I know there are problems, you would have to be completely off point not to be able to pick up on the vibe in the relationship, yet neither of us are focussed on fixing things. People change right?


Passion needs to be nurtured. Your marriage is on cruise control. Marriage take work. It appears you both are not putting the work in. Yes, people change. But this just appears to be throwing in the towel because the garden has withered to nothing.


----------



## 343664

FamilyMan216 said:


> You also don’t want to set an example that bouncing from person to person is the way to go because things get tough. As an adult, you try to create a positive environment through communication and effort, before throwing in the towel.


Agreed. I don’t believe I am throwing in the towel, quite the opposite. There have been many opportunities where I can have said “**** this, I’m done”.


----------



## 343664

Yeswecan said:


> Passion needs to be nurtured. Your marriage is on cruise control. Marriage take work. It appears you both are not putting the work in. Yes, people change. But this just appears to be throwing in the towel because the garden has withered to nothing.


That is your opinion that my marriage is on cruise control. Yes, a marriage does take work. But at what point do you start to question why there are more bad moments than good, irrespective of what effort you put in to the marriage. It can’t be all one person putting in the yards, has to work both ways for it to be a success. Again, where do you get the impression that I am throwing in the towel?


----------



## 343664

Marc878 said:


> Robert Glover No More Mr Nice Guy : Robert Glover : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
> 
> 
> Self Help
> 
> 
> 
> archive.org


Thanks mate


----------



## Yeswecan

Londoner81 said:


> That is your opinion that my marriage is on cruise control. Yes, a marriage does take work. But at what point do you start to question why there are more bad moments than good, irrespective of what effort you put in to the marriage. It can’t be all one person putting in the yards, has to work both ways for it to be a success. Again, where do you get the impression that I am throwing in the towel?


Well...your thread header as written, "Considering Divorce". If that is not looking to throw in the towel I don't know what is. 

When the question arises why there are more bad moments than good one should step back and find why. Then look to correct the problem. I would think this why you are here posting about it. Yes, you are correct. It take two to make it work. You believe you are the one putting in all the work? Are you sure? If so, maybe it is the wrong work. People have love languages. Are you speaking the language your W likes to hear?


----------



## FamilyMan216

Londoner81 said:


> Agreed. I don’t believe I am throwing in the towel, quite the opposite. There have been many opportunities where I can have said “**** this, I’m done”.


I am not saying that you are or aren't. I’m just saying sometimes people don't talk about expectations before or during a marriage, which is a huge mistake. As for me personally, unless there was physical abuse, I would exhaust all options before throwing in the towel.


----------



## 343664

Yeswecan said:


> Well...your thread header as written, "Considering Divorce". If that is not looking to throw in the towel I don't know what is.
> 
> When the question arises why there are more bad moments than good one should step back and find why. Then look to correct the problem. I would think this why you are here posting about it. Yes, you are correct. It take two to make it work. You believe you are the one putting in all the work? Are you sure? If so, maybe it is the wrong work. People have love languages. Are you speaking the language your W likes to hear?


“Considering” being the operative word here! Surely “Decided to” or something along those lines would be throwing in the the towel?! But as I have had to say a few times, I am not taking this very major, life changing decision lightly.

Having been with my wife for 10 years I would like to think I know her pretty well, what she likes and dislikes. But there reaches a point, where the lack of balance in the relationship, becomes too much to bear and that is a reason why I am considering divorce.


----------



## 343664

FamilyMan216 said:


> I am not saying that you are or aren't. I’m just saying sometimes people don't talk about expectations before or during a marriage, which is a huge mistake. As for me personally, unless there was physical abuse, I would exhaust all options before throwing in the towel.


Agreed.


----------



## FamilyMan216

I understand your stance completely when you speak of putting in all the effort. My wife has been away from home for almost 3 months now and my daughters (13&15) are home with me confused on the situation. I am the one putting in all the effort to make it work, while my wife rewrites our history to use as excuses. So, I understand how it feels to be the only one working for the marriage.


----------



## MMH

Londoner81 said:


> Thanks for your advice. Like I said, it has been this way for 18-24 months. What would giving it another 6 months achieve? I mean, if the passion has long gone and we are like two ships passing in the night - and that is even in the current lockdown environment too, wouldn’t dragging this out just to more harm than good?
> 
> Both my wife and I know there are problems, you would have to be completely off point not to be able to pick up on the vibe in the relationship, yet neither of us are focussed on fixing things. People change right?


People and life are constantly changing 
It’s how we adapt that makes the difference 
It sounds to me that you’ve made up your mind to split. However, before you go down that primrose path....it is NOT the solution if you fail to address the real reasons behind the divorce. In the US, when minors are involved ( and your are a family), marital counseling is recommended & you cannot be granted a divorce for 1 year. This is to hopefully salvage your marriage & family.
I would hope you both communicate your needs and issues to determine if this rut you’ve gotten into is fixable 
Marriage is about service to each other 
Typically one partner may be doing more but both of you should be equally focused on your relationship. Love changes but intimacy can be achieved in many ways 
If you fight passionately, I strongly suggest trying to save your marriage. Look at your wedding pictures, reflect on the wonderful times you’ve shared. There was something that brought you together. For me there are 3 criteria for divorce: infidelity, drug & alcohol abuse, and physical abuse. Everything else is fixable. Good luck. Don’t be selfish. Think about this decision and it’s impact on everyone. You will always be related to her through your children, whether you have a “new” family or not. She cannot read your mind nor can you read hers. Communication & action is what’s needed here.


----------



## WandaJ

It does look to me like this was rebound relationship and you just rushed into things . From what you are writing this was never great relationships, with a lot of disconnect from the beginning. Two different personalities, that kept drifting apart from the very beginning.
You sound sad and unhappy, and disillusioned. I know that feeling . When you know things can not continue the way they are but you also feel that it is too late to fix it. And there are children to consider.
I think you are done. But you owe it to your family, and to yourself, to try and do whatever you can to try to save it. Six months sounds like reasonable time. 
the recommended books are great and will help a lot. Have a talk with your wife, her reaction will tell you a lot too.
but even if you divorce, you will be able to look into mirror and say you did everything you could to save it.


----------



## PieceOfSky

MMH said:


> In the US, when minors are involved ( and your are a family), [... ] you cannot be granted a divorce for 1 year.



Not true. Laws vary by US state. My state grants divorce as soon as 60 days, even with minor children in the family.


----------



## MMH

PieceOfSky said:


> Not true. Laws vary by US state. My state grants divorce as soon as 60 days, even with minor children in the family.


Well, I apologize for the misinformation. You’re correct. Laws do vary from state to state & country to country. Nonetheless, when minor children are involved, I’m a conservative. Mr London needs to seek legal counsel if separation and/or divorce is his ultimate decision.


----------



## MattMatt

@Londoner81 you are married. I'm not entirely convinced that your wife considers herself all that married.


----------



## 343664

MattMatt said:


> @Londoner81 you are married. I'm not entirely convinced that your wife considers herself all that married.


Thanks Matt. What leads you to that conclusion?


----------



## 343664

FamilyMan216 said:


> I understand your stance completely when you speak of putting in all the effort. My wife has been away from home for almost 3 months now and my daughters (13&15) are home with me confused on the situation. I am the one putting in all the effort to make it work, while my wife rewrites our history to use as excuses. So, I understand how it feels to be the only one working for the marriage.


I’m really sorry to hear that. And I’m sure your daughters love being with you and know you’re looking out for them and supporting them. I hope things get better for you.


----------



## 343664

MMH said:


> People and life are constantly changing
> It’s how we adapt that makes the difference
> It sounds to me that you’ve made up your mind to split. However, before you go down that primrose path....it is NOT the solution if you fail to address the real reasons behind the divorce. In the US, when minors are involved ( and your are a family), marital counseling is recommended & you cannot be granted a divorce for 1 year. This is to hopefully salvage your marriage & family.
> I would hope you both communicate your needs and issues to determine if this rut you’ve gotten into is fixable
> Marriage is about service to each other
> Typically one partner may be doing more but both of you should be equally focused on your relationship. Love changes but intimacy can be achieved in many ways
> If you fight passionately, I strongly suggest trying to save your marriage. Look at your wedding pictures, reflect on the wonderful times you’ve shared. There was something that brought you together. For me there are 3 criteria for divorce: infidelity, drug & alcohol abuse, and physical abuse. Everything else is fixable. Good luck. Don’t be selfish. Think about this decision and it’s impact on everyone. You will always be related to her through your children, whether you have a “new” family or not. She cannot read your mind nor can you read hers. Communication & action is what’s needed here.


Thanks for your advice and thoughts. Once again, I have to reiterate that I am not about to throw in the towel, however tempted I may be! Which trust me, at times, I just want to tell her it’s over but I know that’s not the road to go down...yet!

We will have that “talk”, she’ll know in no uncertain terms what I am unhappy about, why I think the marriage is not working and I’ll see how she responds.

I’m afraid I cannot agree with your opinion that divorce should only happen if those factors exist. If two people fall out of love, simply one or both no longer is in love the other and it is having a negative impact not just on their wellbeing, but others, then I believe that is justification to end the marriage. 

I’m in the UK and the law on divorce is different to the US as well. Trust me, I have done my research ;-)


----------



## 343664

WandaJ said:


> It does look to me like this was rebound relationship and you just rushed into things . From what you are writing this was never great relationships, with a lot of disconnect from the beginning. Two different personalities, that kept drifting apart from the very beginning.
> You sound sad and unhappy, and disillusioned. I know that feeling . When you know things can not continue the way they are but you also feel that it is too late to fix it. And there are children to consider.
> I think you are done. But you owe it to your family, and to yourself, to try and do whatever you can to try to save it. Six months sounds like reasonable time.
> the recommended books are great and will help a lot. Have a talk with your wife, her reaction will tell you a lot too.
> but even if you divorce, you will be able to look into mirror and say you did everything you could to save it.


I think you are right! At the time, it was a rebound relationship. But there have been plenty of good times and for the sake of those good times, for our children and because I am “considering” divorce and not decided upon it, I will definitely be giving it one more chance.


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## Evinrude58

You need to talk to your wife. Talk to her. You made a promise to her. She’s supposed to be your best friend, and you hers. So just talk to her about it. See what she wants. If she really doesn’t care about you, get an amicable divorce. However, you’d better be damn careful about not ruining your life. You have admitted you haven’t talked to her about it, for real. I have no dogs in this, so just my opinion: All the examples of birthdays and anniversaries.... that doesn’t doom her as the bad guy if BOTH of you aren’t making an effort to be one another’s lover everyday.
Not that I’m any good at it.
I’m just warning you that there are lots of men that would love to have had the chance to make things right before it was too late with the mother of his kids.
Marriage ought to be important enough to sit down with her and see what to do about the relationship. She may want out, too.
i do have to ask: what happened to your live for her? Is it all dependent on your feelings at the moment? You were in love with her once. She was with you. Dude, talk to her. Stop putting it off. NOW is all you’re guaranteed.


----------



## 343664

Thanks for your very forthright advice. As mentioned, I will be talking to her, getting this all out in the open when the time is right. That is not now.

I don’t plan to compare my situation to others. Every situaution is unique. Yes, wanting to make sure I am as at peace and confident of my decision before it happens is paramount. As you rightly point out, this decision will impact many people and not just myself and my wife. Hence the original post.


----------



## waynejoey

Londoner81 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I’ve been married for just over 8 years. My wife and I have been together for 10 years all up and we have two children (6 &3).
> 
> For about the last 18-24 months things have not been great between us. The intimacy, the flame has long since gone. We may have sex once every 6-8 weeks, in fact, I can’t remember the last time we did and when we do it’s pretty mundane and boring. We don’t talk, unless it’s about how each other’s day was, or how the kids are. And to be honest, when I look back at our relationship I can honestly say that it is not a partnership; I for one do not believe I am treated as an equal in this marriage.
> 
> Whilst I have had that nagging feeling that things have not been working well and that I am not happy in the marriage for that 18-24 month period, life has always been so busy with work and the kids, seeing family and friends. But with the lockdown it has given me time to reflect, whilst things between my wife have gotten worse!
> 
> Deep down I am pretty sure I want out of this marriage, that it is has run its course and it is time for a new chapter in our lives. But it is such a huge, life changing event and will impact others, most importantly my children. But then again, if my wife and I stay together then the kids are going to continue being brought up in an environment where they think this kind of relationship is ‘normal’. Whilst we are in lockdown nothing is going to happen, but when things start to get back to some form of normality I want to be ready to act.
> 
> Has anyone been throw this before? Any advice?


"The intimacy, the flame has long since gone" - intimacy can go up and down, but it can come back, like all things relationships take work
"We may have sex once every 6-8 weeks" - doesn't seem acceptable unless both of you agree to it, if you don't like this I think you need to share your feelings and be very transparent about how it makes you feel
"I for one do not believe I am treated as an equal in this marriage." - welcome to the club, everyone always thinks they are being mistreated. The reality is that your wife is a person and people make mistakes and she will let you down and you will let her down, but you forgive, forget, and move on. Think of 5 positive things for every 1 negative thing, live in the present, take joy in loving her back when she "doesn't deserve it". Lead by example.
"run its course" - no such thing, marriages don't run their course unless one person decides to run away or cheat

You made a promise, then you made kids, time to man up. Save your marriage. The pandemic is a great opportunity for everyone to take a time out and address these kinds of issues without going through life one distraction after the other.


----------



## 343664

waynejoey said:


> "The intimacy, the flame has long since gone" - intimacy can go up and down, but it can come back, like all things relationships take work
> "We may have sex once every 6-8 weeks" - doesn't seem acceptable unless both of you agree to it, if you don't like this I think you need to share your feelings and be very transparent about how it makes you feel
> "I for one do not believe I am treated as an equal in this marriage." - welcome to the club, everyone always thinks they are being mistreated. The reality is that your wife is a person and people make mistakes and she will let you down and you will let her down, but you forgive, forget, and move on. Think of 5 positive things for every 1 negative thing, live in the present, take joy in loving her back when she "doesn't deserve it". Lead by example.
> "run its course" - no such thing, marriages don't run their course unless one person decides to run away or cheat
> 
> You made a promise, then you made kids, time to man up. Save your marriage. The pandemic is a great opportunity for everyone to take a time out and address these kinds of issues without going through life one distraction after the other.


Thanks your input.

What happens when you just don’t find your wife attractive any more? Not even about a lack of passion anymore, I just don’t find her attractive. That for me has gone. 

That point is also linked to the lack of sex. Perhaps she feels the same way, who knows.

Your point around the 5 good things for every bad thing; I am really struggling these days to find 5 good things to think about. 

Yes, I made vows and yes, and yes I have kids, but don’t I owe it to myself and to my kids to end this empty, shallow marriage before it causes both myself and my children any permanent mental damage? This marriage is basically dead as far as I can see. I am sick of being the one always going the extra mile, I am sick of sitting down at dinner at every night and there being endless small talk, or no talking at all. I am sick of the arguing, the back handed comments. I am sick of my wife constantly making decisions that suit her and that result in me and the family coming second best.


----------



## aine

Londoner81 said:


> Thanks for your message. It’s reached a point where I have stopped initiating, because I have for so long and I would rather like to see my wife make an effort for once. Not sure if you read my earlier post, but on our recent wedding anniversary I hand made a card to give her, I received nothing. When it comes to sex, or physical contact overall, I am the one who initiates it. It was my wife’s 40th last year and I went to a huge amount of effort to celebrate and was hoping her and I would be able to go away and celebrate for a weekend away, when instead she went to Las Vegas with some close friends.
> 
> Personally I find your comment around “head of the household” to be rather outdated. Why should I be the one to put all the effort in?! A marriage a partnership surely and only works if both are all in.
> 
> As for your point around my kids. Let me turn this around; wouldn’t it be worse if they grow up in an environment where their parents are either arguing, not showing much affection to each other or even talking and they learn that is the way a relationship should be? I get the impression you think I am being selfish and thinking only of myself. You couldn’t be more wrong. If that was the case I would have done this a long time ago.


it could be the seven year itch? But you definitely have serious complaints. Have you brought any of these issues to her? You should and then see what she says and go from there.


----------



## MattMatt

Londoner81 said:


> Thanks Matt. What leads you to that conclusion?


It's as if she feels she deserves more. More what? People often don't know, but when they move off to get it, they don't find it, but going back is rarely an option.


----------



## Tdbo

I have to ask this.
Londoner, have you tried the 180 on her?
I ask, because as I mentioned previously, I have found it a good tool to gauge where things stand.
When I utilized it on my wife, it got her attention quickly.
She demonstrated genuine concern and she was all ears.
Even though I understand that you don't want to have the heavy convo at this point, you may as well use the time to your advantage.
It may be a good time to send a subliminal message that the power imbalance is on life support, and the times are changing. You need to modify the dynamics. You need to push the parameters and gauge the response.
The Glover book was recommended to you. Time for some targeted implementation of those principles. Not enough to start WWIII, but enough to cause her some mild indigestion.
The changeup also provides some impromptu feedback. If she is genuinely concerned, she probably cares. If she is indifferent, she probably doesn't. This input will assist you to have "The Talk" in a more precise and tailored manner.
Change is a process, not an event. May as well start (nudging) today.


----------



## marcy*

It looks like you two don’t have much in common. She gets what she wants from her job, colleagues, and friends, and when she comes home she doesn’t mind the silence between you two. She is happy with her life maybe, in her own way. Possible Affair ? 

What about you? Do you go out together a lot? Do you go out with your own friends? Does she invites you to meet your friends, or at social events with her colleagues ? 
What’s her excuse for not wanting sex? Women lose interest after they turn 40, but 6 weeks without sex, it’s a lot still, unless this was normal for you even before.


----------



## Evinrude58

You never said you talked to her, or what her general response was...


----------



## waynejoey

Londoner81 said:


> Thanks your input.
> 
> What happens when you just don’t find your wife attractive any more? Not even about a lack of passion anymore, I just don’t find her attractive. That for me has gone.
> 
> That point is also linked to the lack of sex. Perhaps she feels the same way, who knows.
> 
> Your point around the 5 good things for every bad thing; I am really struggling these days to find 5 good things to think about.
> 
> Yes, I made vows and yes, and yes I have kids, but don’t I owe it to myself and to my kids to end this empty, shallow marriage before it causes both myself and my children any permanent mental damage? This marriage is basically dead as far as I can see. I am sick of being the one always going the extra mile, I am sick of sitting down at dinner at every night and there being endless small talk, or no talking at all. I am sick of the arguing, the back handed comments. I am sick of my wife constantly making decisions that suit her and that result in me and the family coming second best.


Attraction requires action on your part. If you are watching porn, gawking at other women, or constantly complaining about your wife then your attraction will fade. You need to defeat these things with action. Cut out any media that is in conflict with honoring your wife. Think only of her. Remember your wedding day. Action first, then feelings will follow.

You mention you don't know your wife's side of the story. They like for us to read their minds, and that is their folly. You need to be a leader and draw her concerns out of her with open ended questions, in a kind but stoic way.

You can't think of 5 good things? Can you walk? Are your kids healthy? Snap out of it. This trial is an opportunity for you guys to grow and get better. Take joy in it.

As for vows, I'm not sure what you are citing here. Who did you make vows to? Your wife? Yourself? Your unborn children? To God? Most wedding ceremonies, even non-religious people, tend to have some type of spiritual aspect. You first need to answer this question. Who is the authority in your life. If it is yourself, then you're always going to be battling your own selfishness. You can divorce her and 1 year later you will be complaining about something else.

Your children will certainly have permanent damage if you let this marriage fail. Work on your own self-improvement and your wife will follow you. Your wife's performance is likely result of your inability to lead her to greener pastures. Sorry for the tough love, but you need to spring into action.


----------



## 343664

Hi everyone. I hope everyone is well and healthy and safe as the pandemic continues to unfold.

Thank you to each and everyone of you who sent a reply to my original post.

I thought it would be good to update you all on where things are at. After a few more months of arguments, unhappiness, lack of passion, it reached a climax and we agreed the marriage could no longer continue in its current state and we are now attending marriage counselling. I should add it was myself who said it couldn’t continue as it was and there was agreement from my wife.

Time will tell whether it’s a marriage that can be rescued, I am still in two minds and hoping the counselling will help with my own decision making process.

Best wishes to you all.


----------



## 343664

waynejoey said:


> Attraction requires action on your part. If you are watching porn, gawking at other women, or constantly complaining about your wife then your attraction will fade. You need to defeat these things with action. Cut out any media that is in conflict with honoring your wife. Think only of her. Remember your wedding day. Action first, then feelings will follow.
> 
> You mention you don't know your wife's side of the story. They like for us to read their minds, and that is their folly. You need to be a leader and draw her concerns out of her with open ended questions, in a kind but stoic way.
> 
> You can't think of 5 good things? Can you walk? Are your kids healthy? Snap out of it. This trial is an opportunity for you guys to grow and get better. Take joy in it.
> 
> As for vows, I'm not sure what you are citing here. Who did you make vows to? Your wife? Yourself? Your unborn children? To God? Most wedding ceremonies, even non-religious people, tend to have some type of spiritual aspect. You first need to answer this question. Who is the authority in your life. If it is yourself, then you're always going to be battling your own selfishness. You can divorce her and 1 year later you will be complaining about something else.
> 
> Your children will certainly have permanent damage if you let this marriage fail. Work on your own self-improvement and your wife will follow you. Your wife's performance is likely result of your inability to lead her to greener pastures. Sorry for the tough love, but you need to spring into action.


Just read your post. Wow! You saw tough love, sounds like complete judgement in my opinion.

How do you know my children willl be “permanently damaged” if the marriage does not work? I hate the word “fail”, some marriages just end, doesn’t mean anyone has to be at fault.

Sounds like you have some of your own issues to deal with mate. Perhaps sort those out before dumping your negativity on someone who is only after advice.


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## farsidejunky

Londoner81 said:


> Just read your post. Wow! You saw tough love, sounds like complete judgement in my opinion.
> 
> How do you know my children willl be “permanently damaged” if the marriage does not work? I hate the word “fail”, some marriages just end, doesn’t mean anyone has to be at fault.
> 
> Sounds like you have some of your own issues to deal with mate. Perhaps sort those out before dumping your negativity on someone who is only after advice.


In fairness, @waynejoey post was stern, yet far from over the top. In fact, what he said was on point.

Make no mistake. Divorce will impact kids. That doesn't mean they won't survive, or possibly even be better for it. But it will impact them. 

The above quoted post demonstrates sensitivity to judgment. From my purview, it sounds like you are carrying guilt, and your own internal dialogue is amplifying what others are saying to you. If you don't work to distinguish between the two, you will limit your ability to grow. 

Softening the language is nothing more than the ego muddying the water, and gives you a convenient excuse to ignore what someone is trying to tell you.

If I were you, I would reread his post several times.



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## 343664

Afraid I don’t agree. I don’t mind being judged, although that wasn’t really the point of me being here in the first place. It was for advice!

I do not disagree with the point the kids will be impacted, but your “friend” used the phrase “permanently damaged”. See the difference between your way of wording it and his? I would say if I was to stay in a marriage that was broken beyond repair then it would have an even greater, negative impact on my children.

Anyway, it would appear that whatever I say will result in judgement and ridicule, so I will cease wasting my energy here. 

All the best.


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## Kaliber

343664 said:


> Personally I find your comment around “head of the household” to be rather outdated. Why should I be the one to put all the effort in?! A marriage a partnership surely and only works if both are all in.


Buddy, this is where you are wrong, completely wrong. this is wired biologically in women, you can't change it, and time will not change it, it has nothing to do being outdated. You as a man need to take leadership of the relationship and be dominant, you need to take charge, if you don't she will not be attracted to you no matter what you do!
And you will fail in you next relationship!

Check this book and you will thank me, you can finish it in a few days: *The Married Man Sex Life Primer by Athol Kay* (Don't let the title fool you - check reviews in Amazon)
This will show you why the mentality of modern men is flowed in understanding women, and why we fail at it!

And* No More Mr. Nice Guy* (you already have that book and reading it I assume?! 



343664 said:


> It was my wife’s 40th last year and I went to a huge amount of effort to celebrate and was hoping her and I would be able to go away and celebrate for a weekend away, when instead she went to Las Vegas with some close friends.


That was a huge red flag right there, after all your effort, you should have put you foot down, she would have been angry, but she will love you for taking charge and being assertive!
And Vegas?! with girl friends?! You know the saying what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas!

I have a huge amount of British friends good friends, and I meet with them when visiting UK (I work for a British company), and I have told them and will say it to you, you British guys are way to passive in relationships and that is a serious problem!
I also advice them to read *The Married Man Sex Life Primer by Athol Kay *and the feedback was amazing!

I wish you the best of luck in you MC!


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## nekonamida

343, what was your wife's response to you saying that you were unhappy? Is she willing to commit to fixing things? Does she have complaints of her own?

Assuming she isn't stepping out of the marriage as the reason why she's been okay with the lack of intimacy in the marriage and why she didn't even bother with a card for your 10th anniversary, these issues could be fixable but only if you both commit to it. Are you committing 110% to fixing it or are you giving only half that to say you tried when you're ready to divorce? Is she committing fully or is she also only half committing or bargaining with you that she will commit once you do something? If neither of you is fully committed, why waste time and money on a marriage counselor? Why not just file already or work towards filing?


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## Divinely Favored

343664 said:


> Just read your post. Wow! You saw tough love, sounds like complete judgement in my opinion.
> 
> How do you know my children willl be “permanently damaged” if the marriage does not work? I hate the word “fail”, some marriages just end, doesn’t mean anyone has to be at fault.
> 
> Sounds like you have some of your own issues to deal with mate. Perhaps sort those out before dumping your negativity on someone who is only after advice.


My dad was passive to my mom and she took advantage of it. She even started ridiculing him in his presence to her friends about his ED. 

Used to wish he would find someone who loved him and divorce her. Him putting up with her azz caused me to lose respect for my dad. I started staying away because i did not want to see him tolerate her behavior. 

It also caused alot of resentment toward my mom for the way she treated dad. He died year ago march from heart attack. Mom has alot of regrets now. She lives 20 mi. away and i call her about every 3 weeks just because i feel it is expected. I am civil but really do not care to see her. She is 72.

Fix a marriage or get out and dont stay in disfunction for the kids or you may find the kids will resent you both.


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## Divinely Favored

Kaliber said:


> Buddy, this is where you are wrong, completely wrong. this is wired biologically in women, you can't change it, and time will not change it, it has nothing to do being outdated. You as a man need to take leadership of the relationship and be dominant, you need to take charge, if you don't she will not be attracted to you no matter what you do!
> And you will fail in you next relationship!
> 
> Check this book and you will thank me, you can finish it in a few days: *The Married Man Sex Life Primer by Athol Kay* (Don't let the title fool you - check reviews in Amazon)
> This will show you why the mentality of modern men is flowed in understanding women, and why we fail at it!
> 
> And* No More Mr. Nice Guy* (you already have that book and reading it I assume?!
> 
> 
> 
> That was a huge red flag right there, after all your effort, you should have put you foot down, she would have been angry, but she will love you for taking charge and being assertive!
> And Vegas?! with girl friends?! You know the saying what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas!
> 
> I have a huge amount of British friends good friends, and I meet with them when visiting UK (I work for a British company), and I have told them and will say it to you, you British guys are way to passive in relationships and that is a serious problem!
> I also advice them to read *The Married Man Sex Life Primer by Athol Kay *and the feedback was amazing!
> 
> I wish you the best of luck in you MC!


I learned passasivity from seeing my dads screwed up relationship with my mom. My marriage was getting more and more stressfull. Wife was being critical and argumentative. Felt like i could do nothing right, sex became less. I was trying to fix it and read 5LL, NMMNG and MMSLP. saw a lot of ugly truth in my situation. 

I had held much resentment against my wife for how she had been treating me and how i felt slighted. I had a melt dpwn moment and told her i did not want to be my dad. Things were bothering me and i could not internalize them any longer. I let out years worth of anger and resentment on my wife. I felt a release but she was stunned i had all these issues with her and she had no idea.

Her interaction with me was her pushing me to step up and be the man of the house. The Leader of the Family. She was pushing me to stand up to her. 

She once said "Women are emotional, when i am upset and all over the place emotionally, you do not need to change to match me. You need to stay the same. Like a light house in the storm so i can get my bearings from you. If you adjust to me then we will both be lost"

I became the Man of the House, there was pushback and **** tests but she now feels safe being submissive and our marriage and intimacy are at a place i never dreamed possible.


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## waynejoey

343664 said:


> Just read your post. Wow! You saw tough love, sounds like complete judgement in my opinion.
> 
> How do you know my children willl be “permanently damaged” if the marriage does not work? I hate the word “fail”, some marriages just end, doesn’t mean anyone has to be at fault.
> 
> Sounds like you have some of your own issues to deal with mate. Perhaps sort those out before dumping your negativity on someone who is only after advice.


I'm not going to argue with you, my advice is take it or leave it, but as much as a waste of time this seems I'll make a final reply.

How do I know your children will be permanently damaged? Just look at the stats. Kids not brought up in the proper design of marriage bring baggage into their adult life, then there they'll be back in a counselor's office or their own divorce: abandonment, insecurity, resentment, attachment issues, the list goes on.

Marriage is a promise. It ends when someone dies. Sorry, but you have the wrong definition of marriage, something satan whispered to you, and as long as you are under his thumb you will live life in turmoil gnashing your teeth, clamoring to find the answer YOU want by someone else on the internet to validate the LIES that you believe.


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## Rob_1

waynejoey said:


> I'm not going to argue with you, my advice is take it or leave it, but as much as a waste of time this seems I'll make a final reply.
> 
> How do I know your children will be permanently damaged? Just look at the stats. Kids not brought up in the proper design of marriage bring baggage into their adult life, then there they'll be back in a counselor's office or their own divorce: abandonment, insecurity, resentment, attachment issues, the list goes on.
> 
> Marriage is a promise. It ends when someone dies. Sorry, but you have the wrong definition of marriage, something satan whispered to you, and as long as you are under his thumb you will live life in turmoil gnashing your teeth, clamoring to find the answer YOU want by someone else on the internet to validate the LIES that you believe.


You would be better to stop with your bible thumping, proselytizing, insulting Satan worship stuff. Just about in every post you make you have to bring your religious ideology. Please, realize that not everyone in this world believes you mumble jumble religious views. keep it to yourself, unless the OP is requesting for a religious point of view.


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