# Another One Bites the Dust



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Another running friend/acquaintance has blown up her marriage because she was unhappy/bored.

Here's how it's gone down: she has yet another affair (husband of 20 years has already forgiven a few) with a douchbag married x-country coach. Her husband finds messages and said db of course dumps her like a hot potato.

She decides she's unhappy with her dentist hb of 20 years, who has allowed her to sort of work when she feels like it but otherwise provides a nice life. She moves out, and can't understand why their teen kids can't continue in private school now that hb has to pay her.

It's been a year and they are divorced. Guess what? She's miserable, looks like a crackhead because she's so thin, and has played around with some jobs. 

She's alienated friends while her ex is now starting to date and realize that she wasn't that great of a deal. I doubt she has a guy....these things get around in the running community.

I still think that he might take her back if she showed up on her hands and knees but I hope not. A mutual friend just told me that said woman is upset that the ex is starting to date and that he's taking their kids on vacation and she wished she could go.

I don't know the guy super well but in my dealings with him he seems decent enough. You never know what goes on behind closed doors but if you find yourself wishing you could go on vacation with your ex then it couldn't have been that bad.

I'm sharing this with the hope that at least one person will read it and think twice before they blow up a good marriage. If you don't want what you have by all means leave, but be careful before you leave something basically good because you're not happy. I've left 2 marriages and both were because I didn't want what I had (ie drunk, cheater, poor treatment), not because i thought grass was greener. 

I asked myself whether I'd be glad i dumped them if I never found anyone else and the answer was yes and I've never wanted back in.

Don't be this woman. If you're not happy but have a basically good spouse then try different things and bring your spouse along.

Someone else is going to snap this guy up and have the life she had and their kids now have to see them separately all because she wasn't happy and blamed him for it, but never really asked him for anything more. Very sad.

Remember that the grass is often greener elsewhere because it's fertilized with ********. Fertilize your own yard.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> Here's how it's gone down:* she has yet another affair (husband of 20 years has already forgiven a few) *with a douchbag married x-country coach. Her husband finds messages and said db of course dumps her like a hot potato.


Serial cheater. Nothing to take back


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Those who are bored and looking for excitement don’t think of the consequences. They don’t expect to get caught and, if they are, they don’t expect to have their marriages end over it. They feel entitled to have it all. Good to know that she finally got what she deserved and now he’s free to find a much better deal.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

I think the worst part of this story is that the exH still has to pay her. I hope it is only required for a few years.

Another part that really stands out for me is; she is upset that he is now dating other women. WTH? Does she not realize that he has a lot of great qualities?


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Some people are just self destructive for what ever reason. There is something broken within in them and they go searching for something to make them feel unbroken. For some it's drugs or alcohol, others it is validation through sleeping around. It sounds like this acquaintance of yours is just a self destructive person. Given her current situation I think she will probably continue to self destruct until she hits the basement floor hard, smashes in to pieces and then works to put herself back together as a whole and healthy person.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Marc878 said:


> Serial cheater. Nothing to take back


I agree, but knowing them I still think he would've taken her back.

I'm not convinced he wouldn't take her back now, but I hope not. So far she hasn't tried and hopefully he's removed enough to turn her down if she does.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

leftfield said:


> I think the worst part of this story is that the exH still has to pay her. I hope it is only required for a few years.
> 
> Another part that really stands out for me is; she is upset that he is now dating other women. WTH? Does she not realize that he has a lot of great qualities?


You'd think they would know that but I think she's just so self absorbed that she never thought about him dating others. Everything is about her.

I have a guy but even if I didn't he doesn't do anything for me, and I'd never get involved in the drama. But he will make someone a nice hb...he's the type that enjoys being married and will likely remarry.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> Another running friend/acquaintance has blown up her marriage because she was unhappy/bored.
> 
> Here's how it's gone down: she has yet another affair (husband of 20 years has already forgiven a few) with a douchbag married x-country coach. Her husband finds messages and said db of course dumps her like a hot potato.
> 
> ...


Hope he finds someone great. I agree, being a serial cheater she was lucky to be with anyone at all.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> I agree, but knowing them I still think he would've taken her back.


And then she would just do it again.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> I agree, but knowing them I still think he would've taken her back.
> 
> I'm not convinced he wouldn't take her back now, but I hope not. So far she hasn't tried and hopefully he's removed enough to turn her down if she does.


He might take her back, but would he take her false-front?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> And then she would just do it again.


Probably, which is why I hope he doesn't.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Some people are just self destructive for what ever reason. There is something broken within in them and they go searching for something to make them feel unbroken. For some it's drugs or alcohol, others it is validation through sleeping around. It sounds like this acquaintance of yours is just a self destructive person. Given her current situation I think she will probably continue to self destruct until she hits the basement floor hard, smashes in to pieces and then works to put herself back together as a whole and healthy person.


Some people are just plain selfish, self entitled, impossible to please and never happy.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

lifeistooshort said:


> You never know what goes on behind closed doors but if you find yourself wishing you could go on vacation with your ex then it couldn't have been that bad.


Ironic that just this week my ex asked if I wanted to go on a trip to Disney with the kids once the Covid problem has been dealt with.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Another running friend/acquaintance has blown up her marriage because she was unhappy/bored.
> 
> Here's how it's gone down: she has yet another affair (husband of 20 years has already forgiven a few) with a douchbag married x-country coach. Her husband finds messages and said db of course dumps her like a hot potato.
> 
> ...


Great post.

I've had three close friends have this happen to them this year. 

I just gave an affidavit for one friend who's stbx had it made and is in the process of losing pretty much everything and destroying her life.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm sharing this with the hope that at least one person will read it and think twice before they blow up a good marriage.


If the chick had a "good marriage" she wouldn't have been doing the coach. From her perspective, she had a boring marriage and when people have boring marriages, they want to saddle up with other riders. She was bored because she had no interest in the dentist. The boredom drug makes many a woman feel like a new man.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> I agree, but knowing them I still think he would've taken her back.
> 
> I'm not convinced he wouldn't take her back now, but I hope not. So far she hasn't tried and hopefully he's removed enough to turn her down if she does.


He’d be a fool if he did … but the world is full of fools.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Some people are just plain selfish, self entitled, impossible to please and never happy.


And shouldn't be married.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> Great post.
> 
> I've had three close friends have this happen to them this year.
> 
> I just gave an affidavit for one friend who's stbx had it made and is in the process of losing pretty much everything and destroying her life.


Are all three women who are blowing up their marriages...?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

VladDracul said:


> If the chick had a "good marriage" she wouldn't have been doing the coach. From her perspective, she had a boring marriage and when people have boring marriages, they want to saddle up with other riders. She was bored because she had no interest in the dentist. The boredom drug makes many a woman feel like a new man.


Who is not bored in life at times. It's not the boredom drug but the poor coping skills. I mean when is think kind of thing ever a solution to the problem solved the problem. All she did was blow up everyone's life, most of the time this is what happens because life isn't about excitement, there are moments. I guarantee when she is alone Saturday nights, and I bet that will be a lot she will get very bored. Mr. Dentist is going to be having some fun I suspect.

Thing is he may be having some fun with some other women who was bored and did the same thing,


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

lifeistooshort said:


> Another running friend/acquaintance has blown up her marriage because she was unhappy/bored.
> 
> Here's how it's gone down: she has yet another affair (husband of 20 years has already forgiven a few) with a douchbag married x-country coach. Her husband finds messages and said db of course dumps her like a hot potato.
> 
> ...


UGH...I'm SO sick of selfish people...


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

She kept cheating on the guy, but it was "good marriage"?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> Are all three women who are blowing up their marriages...?


Yup. All three cheated and destroyed their families.

One of them is one of my oldest friends who didn't claim to be perfect but he is a solidly good man who never cheated and truly loves his daughters.

The other two are straight up insane women who had simply amazing husbands where one was successful enough to occasionally make purchases like "His and Her" matching Porsches. This man married her to save her son who needed emergency, extremely costly, heart surgery and has been the only father the boy has ever known. The dippy wench wanted to leave her son with her stbx so at least she maybe realizes she is just a piece of ****.

The friend I'm helping with advice and affidavits overseas a city's network for the entire school system and easily makes 6 figures and provided a great life where she could pretty much do what she wanted. She decided to treat him like a doormat,(he is kind of too nice) and step out on him while telling him about it and expecting him to just put up with it.


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## 347055 (Nov 7, 2020)

lifeistooshort said:


> Remember that the grass is often greener elsewhere because it's fertilized with ******. Fertilize your own yard.


Happens a lot. Wife's relative decided her husband of three decades and two children was "too good" to her. He bought her things, worked at a good paying job everyday, took her on vacation trips all over the world, *put her on a pedestal and treated her like a princess*. While they were married she meets up with some bozo on FB and files for divorce.

The husband was snapped up by a younger woman within a year and they recently married. He is taking his new wife on trips around the world too, hope she doesn't decide he is being too good to her. His ex-wife's bozo has never held a job since they met, she pays all of the expenses and he lays around the house. He has steadily gained weight to about 300 lb and she is afraid if she says wrong thing he will beat crap out of her.

I can only conclude there are plenty of people that are happy to be treated like *** and actively seek to make that happen


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Entitled people want what they want whenever they want it. But no one else is supposed to have wants or needs. Hopefully, he realizes now how fortunate he is to be free. Nothing is ever enough for people like her.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Rus47 said:


> Happens a lot. Wife's relative decided her husband of three decades and two children was "too good" to her. He bought her things, worked at a good paying job everyday, took her on vacation trips all over the world, *put her on a pedestal and treated her like a princess*.


I would worship a man who thought I was this special and loved me this much!!!! 

I have NO understanding of people like this woman (and the others)...what more could they want...!?!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> She kept cheating on the guy, but it was "good marriage"?


Good for her anyway.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

VladDracul said:


> If the chick had a "good marriage" she wouldn't have been doing the coach. From her perspective, she had a boring marriage and when people have boring marriages, they want to saddle up with other riders. She was bored because she had no interest in the dentist. The boredom drug makes many a woman feel like a new man.


Whats wrong with boring? I actively seek more boredom in my life. I get sick of all of the crap that needs to be dealt with day in and day out.

It takes plenty of work and planning just to create a little boredom in my life. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.

Your analysis is very good though. I just don't understand how people can get there. It is completely foreign to my experiences.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

leftfield said:


> Whats wrong with boring? I actively seek more boring in my life. I get sick of all of the crap that needs to be dealt with day in and day out.
> 
> It takes plenty of work and planning just to create a little boring in my life. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.


I’ve never had a problem with boredom — it definitely has its place — but plenty of people can’t tolerate it. They want constant excitement and to find that they often become serial cheaters. Sounds like the dentist finally figured that out. He’s golden. His ex, OTOH, has a rude awakening in her future life.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

VladDracul said:


> If the chick had a "good marriage" she wouldn't have been doing the coach. From her perspective, she had a boring marriage and when people have boring marriages, they want to saddle up with other riders. She was bored because she had no interest in the dentist. The boredom drug makes many a woman feel like a new man.


You're missing the point. Her marriage couldn't have been that bad if she's upset that he's dating others and wants to go on vacation with him. 

Once I had no further interest in ny ex I could give a rat's ass who he dated.

She is extraordinarily selfish but maybe others aren't so selfish and just thinking they're bored and there's something better. Those are the people I'm hoping to reach.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> She kept cheating on the guy, but it was "good marriage"?


Well it was good enough for her to be upset that he's dating others and to want to go on vacation with him.

My marriages were terrible and I couldn't care less who they date.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> I would worship a man who thought I was this special and loved me this much!!!!
> 
> I have NO understanding of people like this woman (and the others)...what more could they want...!?!


I think such a dynamic becomes a difficult to maintain process. I suspect that the healthiest marriages are the ones in which the wife thinks she won a prize by getting her husband, she NEEDS to respect him because he has to be a man who deserves her. Now the man is receiving her respect and he feels good, both about himself and about this fantastic wife he has, so he directs that positive energy back towards her, treating her well, loving her, protecting her, desiring her.

Where things get out of whack is if he starts investing more into her than she does into him, she now sits on the pedestal, he thinks he's the lucky one, she comes to realize that her worth has now exceeded her husband's and her respect for him starts to diminish. Now he feels the decrease in respect and puts more effort into worshiping her. Negative feedback cycle ensues.

He must be the prize. Always.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> Another running friend/acquaintance has blown up her marriage


Apologies in advance for the thread jack, but I read the first sentence and didn’t need to read any further.

are there any women in running clubs that don’t hook up with fellow members? 

I typically only run if something bigger and hungrier than me is chasing me, but I’ve considered trying to get in shape enough to join a running group just in hopes of breaking a long dry spell. 

The problem is I would be so far behind the pack, no WW would even know I was there LOL 

I swear any thread here or any of the infidelity forums on Reddit that start with, “my W recently joined a running club....” I know exactly where that is going. 

My wife hates to run more than me, so if she ever tells me she’s joining a running group, i’ll start heading to the lawyer’s office that day LOL.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Well it was good enough for her to be upset that he's dating others and to want to go on vacation with him.
> 
> My marriages were terrible and I couldn't care less who they date.


of course, she tried it on her own, didn't work out, so she wants back to the comfort.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> Apologies in advance for the thread jack, but I read the first sentence and didn’t need to read any further.
> 
> are there any women in running clubs that don’t hook up with fellow members?
> 
> ...


I've been running for 31 years and have run in many clubs/groups. I know a lot of women who don't hook up there, but sadly many do.

I never have. Boundaries are important....when I run with men I show up, exchange pleasantries, do my run and leave. I don't socialize unless a group is involved.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Lance Mannion said:


> I think such a dynamic becomes a difficult to maintain process. I suspect that the healthiest marriages are the ones in which the wife thinks she won a prize by getting her husband, she NEEDS to respect him because he has to be a man who deserves her. Now the man is receiving her respect and he feels good, both about himself and about this fantastic wife he has, so he directs that positive energy back towards her, treating her well, loving her, protecting her, desiring her.
> 
> Where things get out of whack is if he starts investing more into her than she does into him, she now sits on the pedestal, he thinks he's the lucky one, she comes to realize that her worth has now exceeded her husband's and her respect for him starts to diminish. Now he feels the decrease in respect and puts more effort into worshiping her. Negative feedback cycle ensues.
> 
> He must be the prize. Always.


Again, Lance, much of what you write and believe is not how it works FOR ME...

This dynamic worked perfectly in both my marriages (14 years for my first, 17 years for my second)...until the men I loved with all my heart took advantage of that, and KILLED those adoring feelings...and even then, it took a good TWO YEARS for me to fully lose my trust and respect for them, and to give up. I fawned all over them, glowing with a stupid smile on my face constantly...and it NEVER left my heart until THEY cut it out of me themselves. I could have loved each of them forever like that.

And even though it put me at a disadvantage with both of them for me to love like that, and allowed them to hurt me...I still don't believe I made a mistake to love them like that! I wouldn't want to love any other way - it's ME!! 

Now I'm not saying you are wrong about how things work for other couples, but FOR ME, you are. 
You are right that once I lost my trust in their love, I lost all respect for them, that was the beginning of the end of those loving feelings. But the whole time that I felt special to them and loved, I walked around like an emoji with hearts floating out of it!!! Lol!


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

lifeistooshort said:


> I've been running for 31 years and have run in many clubs/groups. I know a lot of women who don't hook up there, but sadly many do.
> 
> I never have. *Boundaries are important*....when I run with men I show up, exchange pleasantries, do my run and leave. I don't socialize unless a group is involved.


I am continually amazed at how so many people have either no boundaries or very lax boundaries.

I recall in incident from when my wife was 17, a college sophomore, and she decided one night to purge a friend of her from her friendship group. I don't know all of the ins-and-outs of how women navigate these complicated events, but she basically put it to the other girls "me or her." Seems that when they all went out to parties together this one girl was always on my wife's case about needing to be with other guys and my wife had had enough, and saw her as dangerous. She told the other girls that if she ever found herself tempted by the attention of other men that she could count on them to pull her back, but if this girl was there she'd be cheerleading for a hook-up.

I didn't find out about this until much later when I noticed the absence of this particular girl for an extended period. That's when I got the story.

So there was a boundary enforcement of sort going on, but the self-discipline required to enforce that at the expense of an otherwise pretty good friend is something difficult to do. How damn hard can it be to just not run and socialize with new men you meet in a running club? Boundaries are easily enforced at the very early stages of a budding relationship. Just don't socialize with new men. Easy-peasy.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Some people just aren't cut out for long-term domestic relationships and unfortunately they don't always seem to realize that before they marry and have kids.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Again, Lance, much of what you write and believe is not how it works FOR ME...
> 
> This dynamic worked perfectly in both my marriages (14 years for my first, 17 years for my second)...until the men I loved with all my heart took advantage of that, and KILLED those adoring feelings...and even then, it took a good TWO YEARS for me to fully lose my trust and respect for them, and to give up. I fawned all over them, glowing with a stupid smile on my face constantly...and it NEVER left my heart until THEY cut it out of me themselves. I could have loved each of them forever like that.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry those events happened and hurt you. 

I think it's quite easy for women to find men who will put them on a pedestal and worship them, but I also think that when women find a man willing to do that that they quickly look down upon that man and so the relationship is not healthy and short-lived.

I think you did it right, you loved and respected those men, they were just the wrong men for you, something in them screwed it up.

What might be interesting is for women to share their tales of men who worshiped them. I suspect most of those tales are going to be about men who they passed up for relationships, men seen as beneath the woman and so the women kept looking for other men.


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## Imperfections (Nov 26, 2020)

Lance Mannion said:


> Where things get out of whack is if he starts investing more into her than she does into him, she now sits on the pedestal, he thinks he's the lucky one, she comes to realize that her worth has now exceeded her husband's and her respect for him starts to diminish. Now he feels the decrease in respect and puts more effort into worshiping her. Negative feedback cycle ensues.
> 
> He must be the prize. Always.


I am not so sure. I don’t see what would stop a woman who thinks of her husband as being ‘a prize’ from paying attention to other, better ‘prizes’ that might be out there or woo her. Surely there must be a better quality bond than that between two adult people?

Also I feel people discuss a lot how much effort one should devote to one another (which is important too) but perhaps not enough how much effort one should devote to oneself. This is important, especially for a guy. His self worth should not be determined by any external factors, including worrying about whether his partner sees him as a prize (or the best prize) or not.

A lot of relationships end up in the ditch and unfortunately there isn’t any one formula that can ensure that it doesn’t.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> I've been running for 31 years and have run in many clubs/groups. I know a lot of women who don't hook up there, but sadly many do.
> 
> I never have. Boundaries are important....when I run with men I show up, exchange pleasantries, do my run and leave. I don't socialize unless a group is involved.


I am wondering if the high from endorphins that runners experience can be an influence.


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## Imperfections (Nov 26, 2020)

Lance Mannion said:


> What might be interesting is for women to share their tales of men who worshiped them. I suspect most of those tales are going to be about men who they passed up for relationships, men seen as beneath the woman and so the women kept looking for other men.


Maybe my wife will be willing to write one day about my worship for her then...The only problem is she doesn’t believe that I worship her. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a bit of worshipping...I just think one should also learn to always respect yourself too. So even if the person you worshipped didn’t turn out to be who you imagined they were, you still have your life and yourself. (I don’t mean you should worship yourself...but you know what I mean).


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Imperfections said:


> I am not so sure. I don’t see what would stop a woman who thinks of her husband as being ‘a prize’ to ignore other, better ‘prizes’ that might be out there or woo her. Surely there must be a better quality bond than that between two adult people?


You're writing about two different processes. There is interplay between husband and wife and then there is a comparison of your spouse to potential other spouses.

If a wife thinks she didn't get a prize, she has more incentive to look elsewhere for an actual prize. If she feels she won herself a prize, she can still look for a better prize, but now she has to weigh the competition factor - she's going to have to work hard to get that better prize, abandon the prize she already has, and now she has to beat out the other women who want that same better prize. Maybe it's just better to hold onto the prize she already won.



> His self worth should not be determined by any external factors, including worrying about whether his partner sees him as a prize or not.


Shoulds have nothing to do with it. A should is an appeal to an abstraction, an ought. I have a lot of self-esteem about who I am and what I've done with my life, but, honestly, I'm firing on all cylinders when I see that my wife has got my back, that she loves me and respects me. That makes me a better man. That's the IS of my life. It is what it is, even though it's not the ideal ought. If I lost my wife, I'd still have my accomplishments and the ego-boost which arises from them, I'd still feel good about my character, my friends, my children, but some of the color of my life would go, I wouldn't be firing on all cylinders. I'm not so far gone as many other people who go out and need to get laid within 24 hours of being heartbroken, but I am on that spectrum in that the best of me comes out when I'm loved by a good woman.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> I am wondering if the high from endorphins that runners experience can be an influence.


I bet this kind of thing is about the same rate for any club or group that has men and women in it.

I think unfortunately there are cheaters and non-cheaters. 

That's the thing, I think we spend a hell of lot of time analyzing this by gender, by quality of marriage, by socioeconomic factor, by whatever metric you want.

I have come to on basic conclusion. At the end of the day cheaters gonna cheat.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Great thread, and so very true.

A couple of weeks back, after reading about yet another affair started between ex's over FB, I went to my husband and asked to talk about it, and asked if we could agree to not having any ex's on ours, and if we do could we delete them now. I've never had any on mine, he had one and removed her after we talked about it. They never really talked, and she was an ex from decades ago but you just never know, under the right circumstances, when someone's vulnerable, despite neither side intending for it to, anything could happen.

I said to him that life is going to throw curveballs at us over the years, and that some of them will be out of our control, so why wouldn't we control the ones that we can? He absolutely agreed.


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## Imperfections (Nov 26, 2020)

Lance Mannion said:


> You're writing about two different processes. There is interplay between husband and wife and then there is a comparison of your spouse to potential other spouses.
> 
> If a wife thinks she didn't get a prize, she has more incentive to look elsewhere for an actual prize. If she feels she won herself a prize, she can still look for a better prize, but now she has to weigh the competition factor - she's going to have to work hard to get that better prize, abandon the prize she already has, and now she has to beat out the other women who want that same better prize. Maybe it's just better to hold onto the prize she already won.


No, because there’s no objective way to even value any of these so-called ‘men prizes’  I thought the point of the OP’s post is ‘grass is greener’ on the other side syndrome can severely affect judgement.

You often read about women ‘downgrading’ with their affair partner by ****ing the pool boy because they are bored of the stable dentist husband provider. In her eyes, the pool boy is the higher prize?  (nothing wrong with pool boys. Or dentists.)

I mean, as a man, does one really want to constantly be worrying about this whole ‘mirror mirror on the wall, am I still the best prize for my wife in the whole wide world?’ type situation? I would find that a bit stressful...



Lance Mannion said:


> Shoulds have nothing to do with it. A should is an appeal to an abstraction, an ought. I have a lot of self-esteem about who I am and what I've done with my life, but, honestly, I'm firing on all cylinders when I see that my wife has got my back, that she loves me and respects me. That makes me a better man. That's the IS of my life. It is what it is, even though it's not the ideal ought. If I lost my wife, I'd still have my accomplishments and the ego-boost which arises from them, I'd still feel good about my character, my friends, my children, but some of the color of my life would go, I wouldn't be firing on all cylinders. I'm not so far gone as many other people who go out and need to get laid within 24 hours of being heartbroken, but I am on that spectrum in that the best of men comes out when I'm loved by a good woman.


No disagreement there. But I’m still a bit confused how you reconcile this, with your slightly skewed views of women and the circular argument that you need to be loved by your wife, which would help you fire on all cylinders, and be the ‘best prize’ for her (in her eyes), at the same time. Maybe it’s not how you mean it or it’s the way you use the (slightly red-pilled?) language, and juxtapose it with your own ideals.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Imperfections said:


> No, because there’s no objective way to even value any of these so-called ‘men prizes’  I thought the point of the OP’s post is ‘grass is greener’ on the other side syndrome can severely affect judgement.


We're talking about two different processes at work - hypergamy and attention seeking. Affairs are not really about hypergamy, they're about ego.

Jerry Seinfeld's wife left a wealthy husband she just married to go to an even wealthier new husband. That was hypergamy. Wives who enter affairs often affair-down because they're just looking for ego-stroking, many of those affairs are not exit-affairs, many times the woman doesn't actually plan on trading in her husband and many times when a trade-in does result, she's simply following the current she threw herself into - what began as an ego-stroke now becomes the next phase of her life with a new man.



> No disagreement there. But I’m still a bit confused how you reconcile this, with your slightly skewed views of women and the circular argument that you need to be loved by your wife, which would help you fire on all cylinders, and be the ‘best prize’ for her (in her eyes), at the same time. Maybe it’s not how you mean it or it’s the way you use the (slightly red-pilled?) language, and juxtapose it with your own ideals.


Most innovation in the world comes from men under the age of 40, heavily skewed towards men of in their late 20s and early 30s.

Simultaneously, the young men who've given up on women tend to be, disproportionately, happy with working a part-time job, smoking some weed, playing their video games, living in a little **** box, and eating Hot Pockets.

There's something about being married and having kids which gets men to wake-up at 5am, get their bone weary carcasses into a shower, drive through rush-hour traffic, arrive at work and then eat **** from a miserable boss, and it's not purely responsibility for a burden that has been placed on them.

Something is going on here. He has a greater purpose in life, he finds some satisfaction from fulfilling that purpose, and it's his wife and children which give him that purpose. 

So to your question, there is the internal life of a man, how fulfilled he is, and then there is the external quality of the man which attracts a woman's interest. When the stars align, she makes him a better man, but before she entered the picture he was still a good man, a man who attracted her interest and he was the prize she wanted for herself, then he becomes even better once she's in the picture.


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## Imperfections (Nov 26, 2020)

Lance Mannion said:


> We're talking about two different processes at work - hypergamy and attention seeking. Affairs are not really about hypergamy, they're about ego.
> 
> Jerry Seinfeld's wife left a wealthy husband she just married to go to an even wealthier new husband. That was hypergamy. Wives who enter affairs often affair-down because they're just looking for ego-stroking, many of those affairs are not exit-affairs, many times the woman doesn't actually plan on trading in her husband and many times when a trade-in does result, she's simply following the current she threw herself into - what began as an ego-stroke now becomes the next phase of her life with a new man.
> 
> ...


Nothing wrong with your last paragraph. It’s when you start talking about the hypergamy stuff and how as a man, you should never invest more in woman than she does into you otherwise she will lose interest....that’s when I start getting worried...

Do you not believe that how people perceive ‘worshipping’ is entirely down to the individual? If you have a ****ty human being, regardless of sex, they may throw all the love you give them back into your face. While there will be others, who will appreciate and cherish it. I mean that’s the kind of world I’d prefer to live in anyway...


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Imperfections said:


> Nothing wrong with your last paragraph. It’s when you start talking about the hypergamy stuff and how as a man, you should never invest more in woman than she does into you otherwise she will lose interest....that’s when I start getting worried...


You shouldn't be worried, that's excellent advice. What a woman wants from a man is different from what a man wants from a woman, in some very fundamental ways. It's fantastic that the process is mutually satisfying.



> Do you not believe that how people perceive ‘worshipping’ is entirely down to the individual? If you have a ****ty human being, regardless of sex, they may throw all the love you give them back into your face. While there will be others, who will appreciate and cherish it. I mean that’s the kind of world I’d prefer to live in anyway...


In the former, you can't buy someone's love. In the latter, the issue is keeping the love alive. If a woman comes to feel that she settled for her man, that there better men out there, then her interest in her man will decline.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> I am wondering if the high from endorphins that runners experience can be an influence.



Possibly. I find the ones most likely to behave like this are the ones with body image issues who need an ego boost.

When I run with people I'm actually not that interested in socializing.....I like to run fast and compete. At my pace its mostly men, though I do have a couple of girls who are fast in my circle, but were often going so fast that nobody is socializing. If you can socialize during your run you need to work harder.

I do have a very close gf who is pretty bad ass and we run together a lot. I much prefer her company to that of strange men.

Full disclaimer: I did meet my bf in a cycling club, but I was also available when we started dating, as was he.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Lance Mannion said:


> I'm sorry those events happened and hurt you.
> 
> I think it's quite easy for women to find men who will put them on a pedestal and worship them, but I also think that when women find a man willing to do that that they quickly look down upon that man and so the relationship is not healthy and short-lived.
> 
> ...


Thank you, but I'm just fine. Life is all about learning and experiences, and people change sometimes. And I'm ok with that.

I never fell out of love for them when they treated me like I was special and very important to them...I felt MORE in love with (and desire for) them. I know that's not the same for all women (or men), but that's how it was for ME. And I'm sure there must be more women out there who feel the same way I do!!


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Thank you, but I'm just fine. Life is all about learning and experiences, and people change sometimes. And that's ok too.
> 
> I never fell out of love for them when they treated me like I was special and very important to them...I felt MORE in love with (and desire for) them. I know that's not the same for all women (or men), but that's how it was for ME. And I'm sure there must be more women out there who feel the same way I do!!


Which is the "more true" statement.

"I fell in love with X because of X's qualities A and B and C."
"I fell in love with X because X made me feel fantastic about myself."

The former doesn't require reaction, the latter is wholly dependent on reaction.

There are millions of Incel men who just can't get it right with women, these are the guys who will shower women with the attention you say you value. What happens with most women who are on the receiving end of that attention? They get the heebie-jeebies from these men.

I was commenting in another thread to a man whose wife is detaching and he wants to win her back. His strategy of backrubs and nice gestures was driving her away, not like you, making her fall in love with him more.

There's a now classic SNL skit with Tom Brady and Fred Armisen, "Sexual Harassment and You." If you haven't seen it, give it a looksee. Tom Brady gets away with everything, Fred Armisen exhales and gets reported for harassment. Women want the attention of the men they desire and get uncomfortable receiving attention from men that they don't desire.

You fell in love with those fellows for their qualities, you fell in love MORE because of how they treated you. If you didn't have the precondition, would their treatment of you still produced the More Love Effect?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> I am wondering if the high from endorphins that runners experience can be an influence.


There are a lot of good chemicals floating around with any physically taxing activity. Especially a coed group.

Hitting a circuit or routine with weights in a core group will get the sexy stuff floating around pretty good to and devoted folks are pretty healthy looking as well as healthy.


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## 347055 (Nov 7, 2020)

Lance Mannion said:


> I was commenting in another thread to a man whose wife is detaching and he wants to win her back. His strategy of backrubs and nice gestures was driving her away...


Isn't this because his wife no longer loves or respects him? Seems to me that once the bond is broken for whatever reason, it can never be rebuilt. All of the kindness, counseling, conversation will not restore the relationship. It just wastes precious time. I keep reading stories, mostly from men, who to their detriment refuse to realize their wife has left mentally even if not yet physically. Surely they know the marriage is over, why they don't move on with their life is baffling. 

Have been married for more than five decades, but if my wife told me tomorrow that she was over me, I would accept it, hire an attorney and get the thing finished ASAP. Wouldn't be reading self-help books or hiring high priced counseling or even wondering what was wrong with me ( or her ).


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> The problem is I would be so far behind the pack, no WW would even know I was there LOL


My limited experience running with faster runners is if they blow you away eventually one of the faster ones will get bored at the finish line, run back to where you are, and then pace you to the finish.

Haven’t experience too much of the drama aspect myself but it is definitely there in the “work out at 9-10am on weekdays” middle aged lady crowd.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

sokillme said:


> I bet this kind of thing is about the same rate for any club or group that has men and women in it.
> 
> I think unfortunately there are cheaters and non-cheaters.
> 
> ...


it is not the runners high as has been suggested by blondie.
coed softball, coed volley ball, coed bicycling, and even non 
sport activities have resulted in affairs.

it is the one on one, spending large amounts of quality time,
that provides the opportunity for the romantic connection to
develop. the bonding.

future AP is always fun to be with, supports me, ego boosts me,
there for me. the WS gets to escape from the boring things, the
problems of marriage and children, AP never complains why
things are not being done or why did you do that.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

Imperfections said:


> No, because there’s no objective way to even value any of these so-called ‘men prizes’  I thought the point of the OP’s post is ‘grass is greener’ on the other side syndrome can severely affect judgement.
> 
> You often read about women ‘downgrading’ with their affair partner by ****ing the pool boy because they are bored of the stable dentist husband provider. In her eyes, the pool boy is the higher prize?  (nothing wrong with pool boys. Or dentists.)
> 
> ...


doing the pool boy, trainer, waiter, are not trading up.
these women are not going to trade in a lifestyle that
provides for them well.

they just want extra sexual excitement.


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## TomNebraska (Jun 14, 2016)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Some people just aren't cut out for long-term domestic relationships and unfortunately they don't always seem to realize that before they marry and have kids.


and some of them never realize it: the problem is always someone else's and it's never their fault.


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## TomNebraska (Jun 14, 2016)

frusdil said:


> Great thread, and so very true.
> 
> A couple of weeks back, after reading about yet another affair started between ex's over FB, I went to my husband and asked to talk about it, and asked if we could agree to not having any ex's on ours, and if we do could we delete them now. I've never had any on mine, he had one and removed her after we talked about it. They never really talked, and she was an ex from decades ago but you just never know, under the right circumstances, when someone's vulnerable, despite neither side intending for it to, anything could happen.
> 
> I said to him that life is going to throw curveballs at us over the years, and that some of them will be out of our control, so why wouldn't we control the ones that we can? He absolutely agreed.


Even better than deleting ex's on facebook: Deleting facebook!


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

lifeistooshort said:


> Possibly. I find the ones most likely to behave like this are the ones with body image issues who need an ego boost.
> 
> When I run with people I'm actually not that interested in socializing.....I like to run fast and compete. At my pace its mostly men, though I do have a couple of girls who are fast in my circle, but were often going so fast that nobody is socializing. If you can socialize during your run you need to work harder.
> 
> ...


running is not always at full speed long distance.

speed work short sprints

cool down runs

running club meetings

traveling to and from races

pre race warm ups

waiting for results to get posted

after event meals

etc, etc

there is a will there is a way


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> Simultaneously, the young men who've given up on women tend to be, disproportionately, happy with working a part-time job, smoking some weed, playing their video games, living in a little **** box, and eating Hot Pockets.


these men gave up on women because being underemployed drug users,
have nothing to offer women. Probably have no social skills as well.


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## Imperfections (Nov 26, 2020)

oldtruck said:


> doing the pool boy, trainer, waiter, are not trading up.
> these women are not going to trade in a lifestyle that
> provides for them well.
> 
> they just want extra sexual excitement.


Yes, that was my point. I meant that even doing everything ‘right’ and being ‘an amazing prize’ will not protect you from someone ripping your heart and balls out.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

oldtruck said:


> running is not always at full speed long distance.
> 
> speed work short sprints
> 
> ...


I guess. I suppose it's because I have little interest beyond actually running and have no interest in drama, which there is a lot of.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

by this thread, you would think men never leave their families


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Since we're talking about running and boundaries this seems relevant.

I just got a text from a guy I know asking to meet for a run. He's trying to increase his mileage and wants someone to help get him through 10 miles. I know him from a track club and our abilities are comparable.

We've run together many times and this is how it goes: we meet at a public place, exchange pleasantries, do our run, thank each other for kicking each other's asses, and then leave. I have no personal interest in him and if he has any in me he's never let on. We don't talk or socialize beyond this and its not a regular thing.

These things can be kept platonic and usually are. But unfortunately there are some people with poor boundaries....those people will find a way whether its athletics or something else.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

By the time someone reads your warning here.. "Don't be this woman"... it's way too late. I believe, in most cases, "this woman" was that way from early-on. I doubt she became "this woman" without the personality defects that allowed it to happen from before the time "this woman" married the person she would later betray.

It's tough figuring out how to get to people early on, while there's still a chance to change and adapt, rather than hide who you are until the opportunity arises.


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## 2&out (Apr 16, 2015)

This thread reeks of a "good man" is the lifestyle he can provide - and is/should be a priority for women. Ones that don't there is obviously something wrong with. Hmm.


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## longtermdude (Jan 23, 2013)

I have seen this so many times as I have gotten older, what a ****ty deal for the husband to deal with. Hopefully he will find someone that loves him and is a better partner. If you feel like you need to seek relations outside of the marriage, get a divorce or change things.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> by this thread, you would think men never leave their families


LoL! I know from statistics that it does happen.

Anecdotally, I have seen far more females doing this personally. It's probably a regional thing at different times or something.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

WandaJ said:


> by this thread, you would think men never leave their families


all men know it is the fault of the wives


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> LoL! I know from statistics that it does happen.
> 
> Anecdotally, I have seen far more females doing this personally. It's probably a regional thing at different times or something.


As more personal and societal power and liberty accrues to women, their natures become unleashed and we're seeing more of their true nature. Societal controls worked to curtail women's liberty, the side effect was it also caged their natures.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Lance Mannion said:


> As more personal and societal power and liberty accrues to women, their natures become unleashed and we're seeing more of their true nature. Societal controls worked to curtail women's liberty, the side effect was it also caged their natures.


Ouch?


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

lifeistooshort said:


> Since we're talking about running and boundaries this seems relevant.
> 
> I just got a text from a guy I know asking to meet for a run. He's trying to increase his mileage and wants someone to help get him through 10 miles. I know him from a track club and our abilities are comparable.
> 
> ...





lifeistooshort said:


> I guess. I suppose it's because I have little interest beyond actually running and have no interest in drama, which there is a lot of.


you see there is drama, just you are immune.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Casual Observer said:


> Ouch?


Men and women evolved differently and have different natures. In another thread I was writing about the Is-Ought problem. Here I'm focused on the IS, not the sunshine up the skirt OUGHT.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

The woman bashing tone was kind of set in the starting post but there are some legitimate questions to be asked. Since 2/3 of divorces are initiated by women it isn't unreasonable to speculate ways to prevent it or why that is. We've recently had a woman come here talking about leaving her "wonderful husband" (her words) because of boredom and lack of feelings. This leads to many related questions like "If he's so great why don't you care for him?" and "If you don't care about him, why did you marry and procreate with him?"

From an outside perspective, it kind of makes sense that if one person in a relationship is feeding the other's ego, it could lead to the one being fed to have feelings of superiority and entitlement. Society kind of sets up the scenario where the man pursues a woman and has to be deemed worthy of attention which could lead to just this kind of scenario.

My own divorce seemed (seems) weird from her reasoning / perspective as well. She wanted a divorce because I didn't rely on her to do any housework / chores, I had (have) a pretty good job (made hers entirely optional), I am in pretty good shape (especially for my age), I read more than I watch TV, and I think about what I'm going to say before I say it. That was all she mentioned during The Talk (TM) though that's probably not the only reasons. _shrug_ It doesn't make much sense to me so I question it and seek out similar stories like this one.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Lance Mannion said:


> As more personal and societal power and liberty accrues to women, their natures become unleashed and we're seeing more of their true nature. Societal controls worked to curtail women's liberty, the side effect was it also caged their natures.


I'm not buying this. I also know a lot of great ladies and I'm married to one as well.

Maybe divorce favors women in some cases and selfish women are taking advantage. I bet my favorite pair of briefs that if divorce favored men more, we would see more of the same behavior from selfish men.

I have seen one tragic case of a man I knew who left his family. Makes me sick remembering the heartbroken look on his wife's face as I helped move his furniture. He lied and said some excuse to get me to help.

I'm not friends with him anymore.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> I'm not buying this. I also know a lot of great ladies and I'm married to one as well.
> 
> Maybe divorce favors women in some cases and selfish women are taking advantage. I bet my favorite pair of briefs that if divorce favored men more, we would see more of the same behavior from selfish men.
> 
> ...


Very few men believe that they settle for their wife. For dudes, it's a hard slog to find and lock down a woman, they're getting the women they want. Women tend to believe that they settle for their man, they've sampled some fine men but they couldn't lock down those guys, so they lower their sights and come to settle. Men and women both are not happy with some compromise position, some feeling of settling, and so this affects their disposition in the relationship.

Men do not have the same ability as women to sample highly desired mates. Men would freaking love to screw Kate Upton or Claudia Shchiffer or whoever is the Babe of the Moment, but they freaking can't do it. Tom Jones had women throwing their panties at him, do you think that Celine Dion had men throwing their boxer shorts on stage?


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## 347055 (Nov 7, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> I have seen one tragic case of a man I knew who left his family. Makes me sick remembering the heartbroken look on his wife's face as I helped move his furniture.


Neither gender has a monopoly on breaking hearts. A close relative left his wife for another woman when his child was 6 months old. He had nothing to do with the wife or child for years. His wife didn't file for several years, hoping he would come back to her. Talk about heartbreaking, the little girl when she started preschool and noticed the other little kids with dads asked in a whisper "do I have a daddy? Where is he?"


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

oldtruck said:


> you see there is drama, just you are immune.


I'm too old for drama...lol.

We cancelled anyway because the weather was bad....he's not that important.

I went by myself.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> LoL! I know from statistics that it does happen.
> 
> Anecdotally, I have seen far more females doing this personally. It's probably a regional thing at different times or something.


that’s true, we ask for divorce more often. It’s because marriage is apparently such a wonderful thing for us: we get to take care of everybody and everything,mothering our children and husbands, being dismissed and taken for granted. Pure paradise... (sarcasm)

and on the other subject of those seemingly great marriages where wife decides to divorce, and it looks like she didn’t really have a reason for divorce.... we do not know what’s going on behind closed door. News about our divorce was a great shock for everyone -we were that solid couple since college who created business together, worked hard, had two smart, beautiful children. Perfect family. Only our children weren’t surprised.... that should tell you something.

I know marriages that look great together. When I met them at first I was jealous how they talked to each other, how nice and friendly and relaxed the husband is, both always smiling, happy. Only with time I learned what’s happening in this family and it isn’t pretty. I know more than couple like this.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> As more personal and societal power and liberty accrues to women, their natures become unleashed and we're seeing more of their true nature. Societal controls worked to curtail women's liberty, the side effect was it also caged their natures.


True nature? That we are not that different from men?


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Rus47 said:


> Neither gender has a monopoly on breaking hearts. A close relative left his wife for another woman when his child was 6 months old. He had nothing to do with the wife or child for years. His wife didn't file for several years, hoping he would come back to her. Talk about heartbreaking, the little girl when she started preschool and noticed the other little kids with dads asked in a whisper "do I have a daddy? Where is he?"


I’ve noticed that women divorce their husband but most of them will do everything for the kids. I know too many dads who do not really try to see their kids too much after divorce, busy enjoying freedom. Must be their “true nature”;$.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> and on the other subject of those seemingly great marriages *where wife decides to divorce*, and it looks like she didn’t really have a reason for divorce.... we do not know what’s going on behind closed door


Take a coin. Flip that coin 1,000 times. We expect a fair coin toss process to result in 50% heads and 50% tails.

Marriages have conflict behind closed doors. Absolutely agree. With a NATIONAL sample size, we should be seeing 50% husbands and 50% wives deciding to initiate divorces as a result of problems arising behind closed doors. This is NOT what we're seeing.

We should believe the evidence playing out before our eyes. We should use that evidence to develop understanding. 

There's an old saying that few have much trouble with. "Men have a hard time making a commitment." How did this saying come about? From observation. There is a match between behavior and saying. So let's include the corresponding saying ab about women, also based on observed data - "Women have a hard time staying committed."


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> True nature? That we are not that different from men?


You're plenty different. Don't hate diversity, it's our strength, remember.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> You're plenty different. Don't hate diversity, it's our strength, remember.


You like talking in extremes and telling people what they feel or think. I do not hate diversiy, there are plenty of legitimate differences between genders. But at the same time we are all humans with the same set emotions available to us. You seem to see it like there is no intersection joining men and women, but two separate species that do not share anything. Sometimes you remind me of Sheldon Cooper but you are a good sport.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> Take a coin. Flip that coin 1,000 times. We expect a fair coin toss process to result in 50% heads and 50% tails.
> 
> Marriages have conflict behind closed doors. Absolutely agree. With a NATIONAL sample size, we should be seeing 50% husbands and 50% wives deciding to initiate divorces as a result of problems arising behind closed doors. This is NOT what we're seeing.
> 
> ...


Frankly, I have never heard those saying before you. Did you find them on some red/blue pill website. Doesn’t seem like you have too much respect for my gender in general, you using almost every post to note some negative generaluzation.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> Frankly, I have never heard those saying before you. Did you find them on some red/blue pill website. Doesn’t seem like you have too much respect for my gender in general, you using almost every post to note some negative generaluzation.


HAHA! Selective vision on your part, maybe? How am I showering men in glory by noting "Men have trouble making a commitment." There's plenty of negatives about men, we all talk about them openly, but watch out if you say anything negative about women.

Affirmative consent laws are directed at men. Women are not getting bogus rape charges against them because they failed to affirmatively seek consent to kiss a man. Take Back The Night marches are a direct insult to men, presuming that men, all men, are a threat to women's safety at night. Men have higher levels of mate guarding and possessive behavior than women and women complain about "controlling" men all the time.

Don't imitate Hillary's mindset.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

I think there are WAY too many generalities being talked about here. YES there are certainly differences between the sexes. There are a LOT of similarities also.
There are asshole men just like there are asshole women. There are selfish men just like there are selfish women. There are entitled men like there are entitled women.

Those who have good marriages love each other, forgive each other, TALK to each other, and put the other ahead of themselves (MOST of the time, but not good to do it always). They are not entitled and selfish.

You can talk about the "root" cause of this between the genders, but the reality is this: Some people SUCK and should never be married -- they will cause misery to their partner, their family, etc.. The gender is irrelevant.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

jlg07 said:


> I think there are WAY too many generalities being talked about here. YES there are certainly differences between the sexes. There are a LOT of similarities also.
> There are asshole men just like there are asshole women. There are selfish men just like there are selfish women. There are entitled men like there are entitled women.
> 
> Those who have good marriages love each other, forgive each other, TALK to each other, and put the other ahead of themselves (MOST of the time, but not good to do it always). They are not entitled and selfish.
> ...


That's a nice peacemaking statement, but why is it necessary here and not necessary when we see something like "The Violence Against Women Act" being debated and passed? If it's true that "people suck" then we really don't need to have any discussion about men committing violence against women, do we? The violence committed against SOME women is committed by SOME men. Who is going to sooth the feelings of offended men who don't like being tarred with a broad brush? No one, that's who, because men seem to understand that if they're not personally violent against women, then the general criticism doesn't actually apply to them.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Lance Mannion said:


> That's a nice peacemaking statement, but why is it necessary here and not necessary when we see something like "The Violence Against Women Act" being debated and passed? If it's true that "people suck" then we really don't need to have any discussion about men committing violence against women, do we? The violence committed against SOME women is committed by SOME men. Who is going to sooth the feelings of offended men who don't like being tarred with a broad brush? No one, that's who, because men seem to understand that if they're not personally violent against women, then the general criticism doesn't actually apply to them.


Red herring. I was talking about relationships (which is what the original post was about).

As for LAWS, there are a TON of stupid laws on the books. Why is violence against women different than violence against men? Why are SOME things hate crimes when committed against certain groups when the SAME things committed against others are NOT as heavily penalized?

Also, because "Violence against people who suck" would be a bad name for a politician to propose!


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

jlg07 said:


> Red herring. I was talking about relationships (which is what the original post was about).
> 
> As for LAWS, there are a TON of stupid laws on the books. Why is violence against women different than violence against men? Why are SOME things hate crimes when committed against certain groups when the SAME things committed against others are NOT as heavily penalized?
> 
> Also, because "Violence against people who suck" would be a bad name for a politician to propose!


My point is that I don't think it's necessary to remove the sting from criticism if we write something negative about women. No one rushes to the defense of men when we discuss the negative aspects of male behavior.

Yeah, people can suck; yeah, specific people can suck. Women initiating 80% of divorces absolutely deserves commentary and criticism, even if it paints women, in general, in an unflattering light. No one seems gunshy when talking about how many men beat and murder their wives, it's a problem alright and speaks to something going on with men, especially those particular men.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> that’s true, we ask for divorce more often. It’s because marriage is apparently such a wonderful thing for us: we get to take care of everybody and everything,mothering our children and husbands, being dismissed and taken for granted. Pure paradise... (sarcasm)
> 
> and on the other subject of those seemingly great marriages where wife decides to divorce, and it looks like she didn’t really have a reason for divorce.... we do not know what’s going on behind closed door. News about our divorce was a great shock for everyone -we were that solid couple since college who created business together, worked hard, had two smart, beautiful children. Perfect family. Only our children weren’t surprised.... that should tell you something.
> 
> I know marriages that look great together. When I met them at first I was jealous how they talked to each other, how nice and friendly and relaxed the husband is, both always smiling, happy. Only with time I learned what’s happening in this family and it isn’t pretty. I know more than couple like this.


I actually have inside information on the three that happened this year and every one of the women were total selfish *****es.

I will share another story about a guy I use to know who pulled this crap. He is only one of two men I can think of right now but it is pretty ugly and I don't want the tone of this thread to be anti woman.

I appreciate @lifeistooshort for starting the discussion and sharing.

Just because I have seen far more women do what the dip stick in this OP did than men doesn't mean women don't get crapped on by terrible partners

Several women posters here are evidence of that.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

I wasn't trying to remove the "sting" about the comments. MY comments were that I think BOTH genders have awful people and BOTH need criticism when they do awful things.

Women initiating more divorces -- COULD it be influenced by laws? Sure. It could also just be that women will be more decisive when they are done. Not sure why that puts them in an unflattering light.

I would bet that the statistics would show that MORE men beat/murder their wives than the alternative. I bet if you had a story where the wife did the same to the husband, just as many on here would realize that SHE is a crappy person also. I certainly don't think anyone here would let her off the hook because she is a woman.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

jlg07 said:


> I wasn't trying to remove the "sting" about the comments. MY comments were that I think BOTH genders have awful people and BOTH need criticism when they do awful things.


Yeah OK, but why do you think it's necessary to make that obvious point. Where were people like you when "The Violence Against Women Act" was being passed and why weren't people rushing into discussions and pointing out "that women do bad things too!"



> Women initiating more divorces -- COULD it be influenced by laws? Sure. It could also just be that women will be more decisive when they are done. Not sure why that puts them in an unflattering light.


Blowing up a marriage affects people, especially those who don't want the marriage to end. Those who want to keep the marriage are honoring commitment, so if it's fair game to observe that women have a devil of a time getting men to commit to marriage in the first place, then why the hell can't we make note of the fact that many men are having a devil of a time getting their wives to stay committed to a marriage?



> I would be that the statistics would show that MORE men beat/murder their wives than the alternative. I bet if you had a story where the wife did the same to the husband, just as many on here would realize that SHE is a crappy person also. I certainly don't think anyone here would let her off the hook because she is a woman.


Of course more men beat and murder their wives than the reverse, and we, as a society, talk about that a lot. It's a big problem. No one though is rushing into those specific conversations and saying "Hold up there, women do bad things too, you know, this isn't about men, it's about specific men." No one is trying to spare men, in general, from criticism, so why the need to protect womenfolk from criticism about the fact that they, in general, have a lot more trouble staying committed to marriages that they find unsatisfactory?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I'd like to add that while my original story was about a woman that's because I mainly socialize with women so I'm more likely to know about those details.

I know of a number of male runners off the top of my head who were screwing around and ultimately divorced. How many actually filed vs just cheating i don't know but the men cheat too.


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## 347055 (Nov 7, 2020)

Lance Mannion said:


> Women initiating 80% of divorces absolutely deserves commentary and criticism, even if it paints women, in general, in an unflattering light.


If this statistic is accurate, it may be more because of the fact that the man is the one who is victimized by the legal profession in a divorce proceeding. He loses always. I have had numerous friends who went through the the divorce wood chipper and even if their STBX was proved to be banging everything with pants during the marriage, they lost a big fraction of their bank account, retirement account, and future income. My best friend would have divorced years ago, and still talks about it, but his attorney assured him he would lose a minimum of 70% of his assets. Reading these forums there are numerous instances of men putting up with all sorts of misery because they know if they file for divorce the misery will only increase. There is a thread elsewhere from a man complaining about 17 year 'marriage' and agonizing about why he cant divorce.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> Yeah OK, but why do you think it's necessary to make that obvious point. Where were people like you when "The Violence Against Women Act" was being passed and why weren't people rushing into discussions and pointing out "that women do bad things too!"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Frankly, I have yet to see you say anything even remotely showing that both genders can do bad things. Your posts are about basically evil women and poor guys.
Blowing up marriage? - just because women initiate more divorces, doesn’t mean they are the one who blew up the marriage. It is not the same, far from it.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

Women are twice as likely to end same sex relationships, too.

Given that two thirds of divorces among same sex relationships are filed by women could give some clues to reasons. When the reasons I was being given by my ex didn't make sense I did a bunch of reading about the end of relationships. There was a common refrain that said that if the man was as involved and helpful at home as she was and was conscientious she wouldn't be leaving. Male laziness and bad behavior can't be the reason lesbian relationships are ending twice as often as gay ones. Is it different relationship expectations? Is it the perception or presence of opportunities outside of the relationship? Is it biological?


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

lifeistooshort said:


> I'd like to add that while my original story was about a woman that's because I mainly socialize with women so I'm more likely to know about those details.
> 
> I know of a number of male runners off the top of my head who were screwing around and ultimately divorced. How many actually filed vs just cheating i don't know but the men cheat too.


i am shocked. i thought they were always running to fast to
cheat on their spouses.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

frusdil said:


> Great thread, and so very true.
> 
> A couple of weeks back, after reading about yet another affair started between ex's over FB, I went to my husband and asked to talk about it, and asked if we could agree to not having any ex's on ours, and if we do could we delete them now. I've never had any on mine, he had one and removed her after we talked about it. They never really talked, and she was an ex from decades ago but you just never know, under the right circumstances, when someone's vulnerable, despite neither side intending for it to, anything could happen.
> 
> I said to him that life is going to throw curveballs at us over the years, and that some of them will be out of our control, so why wouldn't we control the ones that we can? He absolutely agreed.


Isn't it better to know that he can be tempted, and RESIST, than to try to prevent temptation in the first place...? Can anyone ever prevent ALL temptation that could threaten their relationships??


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

oldtruck said:


> i am shocked. i thought they were always running to fast to
> cheat on their spouses.


Most of them aren't as fast as you'd think 😁

Most people are middle of the pack to slow. However, there are more fast men then women because of the ego factor. LOL.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> Isn't it better to know that he can be tempted, and RESIST, than to try to prevent temptation in the first place...? Can anyone ever prevent ALL temptation that could threaten their relationships??


I agree, but why allow temptation in when you can easily block it?

Some can't be easily avoided and that we have to deal with, but blocking exes when you can seems like low hanging fruit.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

lifeistooshort said:


> I agree, but why allow temptation in when you can easily block it?
> 
> Some can't be easily avoided and that we have to deal with, but blocking exes when you can seems like low hanging fruit.


Maybe...but "temptation" is so subjective...not everyone is tempted by exes, are they...?

It's possible that I don't perceive a threat because I am only on my second "ex" (unless you count my 10th grade boyfriend)...

But I've also always preferred to give freedom and see what they do with it...and decide if I want a man who makes those choices or not.

Not that I know what the hell I'm doing, though...Lol!!


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

WandaJ said:


> I’ve noticed that women divorce their husband but most of them will do everything for the kids. I know too many dads who do not really try to see their kids too much after divorce, busy enjoying freedom. Must be their “true nature”;$.


Then you have other dads racking up legal bills fighting for 50/50 custody. I know one very well...


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

P.S. for the three friends that had their wives cheat and destroy their marriages, there were three absolute scum of the earth men willing to destroy those families just to get their wangs wet.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

RebuildingMe said:


> Then you have other dads racking up legal bills fighting for 50/50 custody. I know one very well...


yep. I am just trying to point out how unbalanced is this whole thread. I feel like we are being accused here for all the evils of the world, like that Eve lady......lol


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> Maybe...but "temptation" is so subjective...not everyone is tempted by exes, are they...?
> 
> It's possible that I don't perceive a threat because I am only on my second "ex" (unless you count my 10th grade boyfriend)...
> 
> ...


I'm with you if I'm speaking just for myself. I think people show you who they are when they either think you're not looking or there are no consequences, so letting them make the choices that they're going to make is a great way to find out what kind of character they have.

And I have ZERO interest in my two ex hb's. I do have a couple of ex bf's from 25 years ago on FB but I don't talk to them and have zero interest. One is happily married and posts funny stuff and the other is a hot mess that posts pictures of his kids.

They both live out of state.

I just think that in general it's not a good idea to be in touch with exes. I speak to my kids father when it concerns the boys and that's it.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

A long time ago, in a galaxy..... Wait, never mind.

It was about 24 years ago in Washington.

I had a best friend that was closer to me than a brother.

We spent all our available time messing around and having dinner at each other's homes. I was a regular fixture at his house and vice versa.

I had two kids and he and his wife had five. All of them in grade school on down to diapers.

He had something financial happen and moved his family to Idaho until he could get stable again.

He would work in Washington and take trips back to visit his family every week.

Mrs. Conan started getting annoyed with him over some interpersonal issues and I found myself siding with her.

I won't say how, buy I found out he was cheating on his wife with a woman that he had set up in a trailer and was leading two lives.

I also found him doing some other unscrupulous things and pretty much every detail you could imagine.

I try to mostly mind my own business but if something really gets my attention, I'm like a particularly stubborn pitbull with his favorite bone and I can't let it go until I've got the marrow.

I told Mrs Conan and that I wasn't going to let him into our home anymore and I was going to have a talk with him.

The next time he came over, I didn't let him in and took him for lunch to a friend's restaurant.

I told him in detail, everything he was doing and said he wasn't welcome in my house anymore.

His jaw hit the table with how much I knew and he immediately said he would end his affair and reconcile with his wife.

He made a half-hearted attempt and admitted he didn't want to stop seeing his AP. He also gave his wife the gift of a STD. It wasn't serious but heartbreaking and humiliating on top of what he already did to her.

They split and I did everything in my power to destroy him professionally and socially.

I probably went overboard because the last I heard, he was strung out on meth, had blue hair and had lost way too much weight.

She lost it and hooked up with a loser who endangered her kids and she ended up injured from a car accident her boyfriend caused and the children were put in state custody. I don't know if she got them back, I hope so.

I doubt he is alive if he didn't get an intervention. This was over two decades ago.

His wife was a very loving, supportive and successful woman before he cheated.

She raised her children and kept a successful career going throughout their marriage.

He had it very good and threw it away for a temporary bang buddy.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Lance Mannion said:


> Yeah OK, but why do you think it's necessary to make that obvious point. Where were people like you when "The Violence Against Women Act" was being passed and why weren't people rushing into discussions and pointing out "that women do bad things too!"


Because the focus was obviously protecting women from domestic violence. People have limited time, MOST laws NEVER talk about unintended consequences, and this should also be an obvious point to you, but I'll point it out anyway. Did YOU contact your politicians to point out whatever it is about that law that ticks you off? Did you bring up these points to them? If not, who are the "people" you refer to?



> Blowing up a marriage affects people, especially those who don't want the marriage to end. Those who want to keep the marriage are honoring commitment, so if it's fair game to observe that women have a devil of a time getting men to commit to marriage in the first place, then why the hell can't we make note of the fact that many men are having a devil of a time getting their wives to stay committed to a marriage?


Again, you generalize in trying to point out THIS obvious point that divorce affects people. Don't you think that WOMEN have a devil of a time getting men to stay committed to marriage? Again, you generalize. If you ACTUALLY do the research, you will find this breakdown for 2020 stats: (Divorce Statistics 2020 | Divorce Rate in America)
The age breakdown of those obtaining a divorce looks thus:


Under 20: Women 27.6%, Men 11.7%
20 – 24: Women 36.6%, Men 38.8%
25 – 29: Women 16.4%, Men 22.3%
30 – 34: Women 8.5%, Men 11.6%
35 – 39: Women 5.1%, Men 6.5%
Seems to me that the "women divorce more than men" which is what you are trying to bash women with is NOT true.
You are arguing a falsehood.



> Of course more men beat and murder their wives than the reverse, and we, as a society, talk about that a lot. It's a big problem. No one though is rushing into those specific conversations and saying "Hold up there, women do bad things too, you know, this isn't about men, it's about specific men." No one is trying to spare men, in general, from criticism, so why the need to protect womenfolk from criticism about the fact that they, in general, have a lot more trouble staying committed to marriages that they find unsatisfactory?


Not sure I get ANY of your points? Who is protecting women from criticism? You see plenty of criticism on THIS SITE where women AND men are criticized for doing bad things. PLENTY of examples. Again, I have no idea where you are getting this as a foundational true thing? People (not just men, not just women) who do bad things are USUALLY held accountable.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> I agree, but why allow temptation in when you can easily block it?
> 
> Some can't be easily avoided and that we have to deal with, but blocking exes when you can seems like low hanging fruit.


Agreed. It's like bringing home a box of Oreos and getting mad at yourself for eating them.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Agreed. It's like bringing home a box of Oreos and getting mad at yourself for eating them.


When I bring home Oreos I expect to eat them all.

That's why I brought them home!

LOL.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Hiner112 said:


> Women are twice as likely to end same sex relationships, too.
> 
> Given that two thirds of divorces among same sex relationships are filed by women could give some clues to reasons. When the reasons I was being given by my ex didn't make sense I did a bunch of reading about the end of relationships. There was a common refrain that said that if the man was as involved and helpful at home as she was and was conscientious she wouldn't be leaving. Male laziness and bad behavior can't be the reason lesbian relationships are ending twice as often as gay ones. Is it different relationship expectations? Is it the perception or presence of opportunities outside of the relationship? Is it biological?


Biological



> The participants reported being generally satisfied with their relationships and sex lives, but women reported lower levels of desire depending on the length of their relationship. "Specifically, for each additional month women in this study were in a relationship with their partner, their sexual desire decreased by 0.02 on the Female Sexual Function Index," the authors wrote online Jan. 23 in the Journal of Sex & Marital Therapy.
> 
> In fact, *relationship duration* was a *better predictor* of sexual desire in women than both relationship and sexual satisfaction. While the 0.02 decrease in female desire was small, it contrasts with *male desire, which held steady over time*, the researchers said.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Maybe...but "temptation" is so subjective...not everyone is tempted by exes, are they...?
> 
> It's possible that I don't perceive a threat because I am only on my second "ex" (unless you count my 10th grade boyfriend)...
> 
> ...


Don't make it subjective, implement an objective rule. 

I never have lunch, alone, with a woman. This is not because I'm going to flirt with her, or her with me, but because it's super-easy to enforce that rule, and thus I'm spared the RISK of sliding down a slippery slope.

I never have meetings alone with women in my office. I've been doing the Pence Rule long before people knew about the Pence Rule.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Lance Mannion said:


> Don't make it subjective, implement an objective rule.
> 
> I never have lunch, alone, with a woman. This is not because I'm going to flirt with her, or her with me, but because it's super-easy to enforce that rule, and thus I'm spared the RISK of sliding down a slippery slope.
> 
> I never have meetings alone with women in my office. I've been doing the Pence Rule long before people knew about the Pence Rule.


Well, this is great, and I'm glad it works for you, but is there really a risk of sliding down a slope for you?


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> yep. I am just trying to point out how unbalanced is this whole thread. I feel like we are being accused here for all the evils of the world, like that Eve lady......lol


There is a study which looked a male and female responses to unwanted sexual touches. Technically those touches constitute sexual assault. Seems that more men than women are victims of sexual assault.

When people are discussing the "rape problem" should this study by injected into the conversation so that the focus in no longer on men raping women, do we need to spare men's feelings about rape?


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Well, this is great, and I'm glad it works for you, but is there really a risk of sliding down a slope for you?


I have strong impulse control, high will power, strong beliefs, and that said, yes there is risk of sliding down the slippery slope. Why? Because humans are a rationalizing species, and I am like everyone else, I can rationalize what I want, I can think, its harmless, it's just a lunch and I so look forward to talking with HER, it's just drinks, it's just a walk in the park, and by the repeated process of interaction and having my desires met, the brain chemicals start to kick in, and now I'm fighting intoxication and my reasoning skills are weakened.

The thing with the slippery slope is that the further down it you go, the harder it becomes to pull back, because your investment in the process is now greater, the rewards are greater. The easiest decision to make is the one with the lowest cost and lowest rewards. I don't do lunch. Easy-peasy. This is my rational mind exercising control and blocking my rationalizing mind from even having an opportunity to exert itself. If I catch myself rationalizing, it's much easier to impose reason at this stage than at a later stage where feelings might be stronger.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Lance Mannion said:


> There is a study which looked a male and female responses to unwanted sexual touches. Technically those touches constitute sexual assault. Seems that more men than women are victims of sexual assault.


I'm not even sure what this thread is about anymore but there are double standards that aren't too terrible.

I think it is important to talk about women touching men and there have been some good conversations around that topic.

It feels more onerous, to me anyway, when a woman is touched, without her desire to be, as opposed to a man.

Probably because the extreme majority of men can easily overpower a woman.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> It feels more onerous, to me anyway, when a woman is touched, without her desire to be, as opposed to a man.


This is a troublesome standard to have in law. A woman's feelings about an encounter will determine whether it was a crime or not. See, SNL Skit "Sexual Harassment and You."


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Lance Mannion said:


> This is a troublesome standard to have in law. A woman's feelings about an encounter will determine whether it was a crime or not. See, SNL Skit "Sexual Harassment and You."


It isn't troublesome when it comes to touching an arm or shoulder. I've witnessed a hell of a lot of men touching women without asking and, without going into it, found out first hand what women put up with on an almost daily basis.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

jlg07 said:


> Seems to me that the "women divorce more than men" which is what you are trying to bash women with is NOT true.
> You are arguing a falsehood.


Why does your data stop at age 39? What happens in life in your 40s and 50s? The kids are older, the wife can re-enter the workforce. The USEFULNESS of the husband to HER family declines. So what is the flipside of that 40s/50s dynamic? During their 20s/30s, when the family is starting out, the wife is more dependent on the husband and so sticks it out. This is the core dynamic of the Walkaway Wive Syndrome - she sticks with the marriage but is checked out, she's biding her time until she has moved all of the chess pieces so that she can have a favorable exit.



> According to the National Center for Health Statistics, about 50 percent of marriages in the United States end in divorce, and* about 80 percent of the divorces are initiated by women*. That 50 percent is often quoted and it is probably on the high side, but it is illuminating that 80 percent of the divorces are filed by the wife.
> 
> This statistic *suggests that more women are unsatisfied with their marriages*, at least to the point of ending them, than men. Some marriages end for very objective reasons, such as physical abuse or addictions, and there are certainly many reasons for the dissatisfaction that exists. However, the husband and his actions – or his lack of them – play a significant role in causing and sustaining the dissatisfaction.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> There is a study which looked a male and female responses to unwanted sexual touches. Technically those touches constitute sexual assault. Seems that more men than women are victims of sexual assault.
> 
> When people are discussing the "rape problem" should this study by injected into the conversation so that the focus in no longer on men raping women, do we need to spare men's feelings about rape?


have no idea how is that related to what I said. 

But I've notice that men who are obsessed with so called dangers of being accused of rape for no reason, usually have something in the past that sits on their mind, and keep them worrying. Because if you do not do anything questionable, your chances of this happening to you are very very miniscule. Way lower than women's chance of actually being raped. But let's cry over the made up by Fox News problem.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> have no idea how is that related to what I said.
> 
> But I've notice that men who are obsessed with so called dangers of being accused of rape for no reason, usually have something in the past that sits on their mind, and keep them worrying. Because if you do not do anything questionable, your chances of this happening to you are very very miniscule. Way lower than women's chance of actually being raped. But let's cry over the made up by Fox News problem.


Whoa there, girl. I'm in that camp. I have never been anything but overly cautious when it comes to sexual interactions with anyone in my life. To a fault, in fact. I have a perfectly clear conscience. I don't watch Fox (ok, the local affiliate, not the national broadcast), I'm not a misogynist, and you aren't usually prone to that kind of blanket statement. 

If I have been sensitized to this issue, it was largely by women on this very board in the not so long, long ago.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> have no idea how is that related to what I said.
> 
> But I've notice that men who are obsessed with so called dangers of being accused of rape for no reason, usually have something in the past that sits on their mind, and keep them worrying. Because if you do not do anything questionable, your chances of this happening to you are very very miniscule. Way lower than women's chance of actually being raped. But let's cry over the made up by Fox News problem.


Even as a young pup, when I first became aware of the concept of rape as a crime, something about it bothered me. How can one go to jail for an act which people do all of the time, have sex, so the essence of the crime all focuses on the issue of consent and the matter boils down to "he said, she said." As I matured, the fundamental concern I zeroed in on as a kid, has not abated.

Every single man has a legitimate fear of having his life ruined by false accusation. See: Justice Kavanaugh, see, UVA, see Duke Lacrosse.


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## 347055 (Nov 7, 2020)

Lance Mannion said:


> Don't make it subjective, implement an objective rule.
> 
> I never have lunch, alone, with a woman...
> 
> I never have meetings alone with women in my office. I've been doing the Pence Rule long before people knew about the Pence Rule.


You are very wise. People laughed at Pence's rule, he was wise as well. I made the same rule when married 53 years ago. Only female ever had lunch with was with my wife present, mostly one of her friends, Ditto at the office. No meetings alone with female in my office or lab or anywhere else at work. And office door open too. When teaching females to run computer applications, always in a classroom setting or in their office with door open.

Had more than one female over the years suggest going to the basement lab empty of other people for training. That way they could have accused me of anything with no witnesses and I would have had no defense. Of course told them open classroom with other students better facilitated the learning. And, put down in my mental notes to give them a very wide birth. This was before video surveillance of all work areas became commonplace, which I thought was a wonderful thing.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

I can understand why some women would feel attacked by some of what has been said in this thread. When I was doing my searching for why wives leave, I felt the same way. The majority of the feedback I saw said basically that if I had actually helped around the house and listened to what she said she'd have remained affectionate and stayed. That men are entitled, oblivious, and poor communicators by nature and are often casually abusive or neglectful in the bargain and I'd have to overcome my shortcomings if I didn't want the same thing to happen to my next relationship.

All I meant to suggest is that guys being assholes isn't the only valid reason and there might be some evidence to support that.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Just to offer a different perspective, my ex-husband was extremely helpful, and I don’t remember ever viewing him as boring or entitled.

Communication was definitely a problem, and underneath that was a fundamental lack of trust and honesty. 



Hiner112 said:


> The majority of the feedback I saw said basically that if I had actually helped around the house and listened to what she said she'd have remained affectionate and stayed. That men are entitled, oblivious, and poor communicators by nature and are often casually abusive or neglectful...


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Hiner112 said:


> The majority of the feedback I saw said basically that if I had actually helped around the house and listened to what she said she'd have remained affectionate and stayed. That men are entitled, oblivious, and poor communicators by nature


I see a lot of troubled couples. I find that in general men and women are both entitled and poor communicators, in different ways. Men do seem a little more "oblivious", but that has both a bad side and a good side. The opposite of "oblivious" might be "dysregulated". 



> I'd have to overcome my shortcomings if I didn't want the same thing to happen to my next relationship.


I think that's always good advice.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

WandaJ said:


> yep. I am just trying to point out how unbalanced is this whole thread. I feel like we are being accused here for all the evils of the world, like that Eve lady......lol


the gift that keeps on giving.

maternal DNA keeps getting passed down from generation to the next.


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## Crushedandconfused (Jul 22, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> You're writing about two different processes. There is interplay between husband and wife and then there is a comparison of your spouse to potential other spouses.
> 
> If a wife thinks she didn't get a prize, she has more incentive to look elsewhere for an actual prize. If she feels she won herself a prize, she can still look for a better prize, but now she has to weigh the competition factor - she's going to have to work hard to get that better prize, abandon the prize she already has, and now she has to beat out the other women who want that same better prize. Maybe it's just better to hold onto the prize she already won.
> 
> ...


Well said. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

VladDracul said:


> If the chick had a "good marriage" she wouldn't have been doing the coach. From her perspective, she had a boring marriage and when people have boring marriages, they want to saddle up with other riders. She was bored because she had no interest in the dentist. The boredom drug makes many a woman feel like a new man.


And then many of them wake up later (like the example from the OP) and realize they had a good marriage and blew it. So their boredom was fleeting and temporary and their fantasy projections and perceptions were illusory. The therapy community and many others are now beginning to acknowledge that adultery seems to mostly happen in good marriages rather than bad ones. If you do the math statistically this also makes common sense. It reflects narcissism and entitlement and brokenness within the cheater. Not the marriage itself. Another weird stat - women initiate more than 70 percent of all divorces and that percentage is especially high among post menopausal women. what do we think accounts for this? The quality of the marriage or the husband, or women’s own dissatisfaction with themselves?

so let’s think this through. Half of all marriages end in divorce. Is that because half of all marriages are bad? If so we’re in trouble as a species. do we really think half of all marriages are bad? The overwhelming majority of those divorces are initiated by women. Do we think 70-80 percent of divorces were caused by bad husbands? Really? If infidelity stats ring true, then women have achieved parity with men for cheating (this was probably always true, but women were simply more adept at hiding it and now technology has made that more difficult). It’s probably more likely that most divorces are caused by infidelity, and as time passes most reconciliations fail (at about the five year mark success rates drop off a cliff).If women initiate 70-80 percent of divorces we can assume a significant portion of these are due to female infidelity, and likely initiation of divorce was a branch swinging exit affair gambit or a maneuver to control the divorce process after it became clear they had imploded the marriage due to their cheating.


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> But I've notice that men who are obsessed with so called dangers of being accused of rape for no reason, usually have something in the past that sits on their mind, and keep them worrying. Because if you do not do anything questionable, your chances of this happening to you are very very miniscule. Way lower than women's chance of actually being raped. But let's cry over the made up by Fox News problem.


I’m a man. I have a wide circle. I don’t know of very many men who aren’t hyper aware now of potentially being accused of sexual harassment. Most professional men now will not have lunch meetings alone with women, or have a mtg alone with a women or with office door closed without anyone else present. we also know there are a high number of false domestic violence charges fomented against betrayed husbands by unfaithful wives. As a custody gambit. It happens so often now that it’s SOP to recommend a BH carry around a VAR for any interactions with an unfaithful wife after DDAY.

I did this and am glad I did, because at one point my WW seemed to almost try to veer in this direction. I shut down this gambit by telling her if she falsely accused me of something like that I would prove it false and then go for sole custody.

men word to the wise: if your wife has betrayed you and you are still married, carry a VAR in your pocket as protection. Most states allow for recorded In person conversations if one party is aware.


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