# Normal issues or trouble?



## Pajawi (Apr 3, 2018)

I've been married to my wife for 16 years. Ups and downs, including my fierce struggle with porn (clean now for about 2 years) and it's effect on us. I make this clear: I am a flawed man and the biggest problem our marriage faces is me. 

However, my wife has developed over the years a running hobby for fitness and friendship. She also works hard (both educators). The social aspect of her running group has grown. She is the extovert and I'm not. Her work load is also heavy. With 2 kids our alone time is limited already, but has recently become non existent. It's work, running, etc. And now, it's adding social events with her running group on the weekends. I'm left alone much of the time with the kids. She doesn't invite me along. This weekend was her birthday. She had a work obligation and will be spending the day now with her running friends at a winery and then dinner to celebrate her birthday. I asked about us celebrating and we ended up only doing a small dinner she chose ( fast food at that). She only ever talks work with me or running. We don't engage in conversation often because it's home from running the off to bed because she's tired. We spend very little time together and intimate time is even less. She told me not long ago that work is the most important thing in her life. 

I'm lost and lonely. I'm hurt. I miss my best friend, and I have no idea what to do. Attempts to talk are met with confrontation or hostility to even outright avoidance. Most of her running group is either single or divorced. I just don't know anymore what to think. Is it normal 30 something female behavior or am I missing something?


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

You basically asked the same question four month's ago.

Have you checked her phone?


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Pajawi said:


> Attempts to talk are met with confrontation or hostility to even outright avoidance. Most of her running group is either single or divorced. I just don't know anymore what to think. Is it normal 30 something female behavior or am I missing something?


Yes, you're missing the fact that your wife is probably in the midst of an affair.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Pajawi said:


> I've been married to my wife for 16 years. Ups and downs, including my fierce struggle with porn (clean now for about 2 years) and it's effect on us. I make this clear: I am a flawed man and the biggest problem our marriage faces is me.
> 
> However, my wife has developed over the years a running hobby for fitness and friendship. She also works hard (both educators). The social aspect of her running group has grown. She is the extovert and I'm not. Her work load is also heavy. With 2 kids our alone time is limited already, but has recently become non existent. It's work, running, etc. And now, it's adding social events with her running group on the weekends. I'm left alone much of the time with the kids. She doesn't invite me along. This weekend was her birthday. She had a work obligation and will be spending the day now with her running friends at a winery and then dinner to celebrate her birthday. I asked about us celebrating and we ended up only doing a small dinner she chose ( fast food at that). She only ever talks work with me or running. We don't engage in conversation often because it's home from running the off to bed because she's tired. We spend very little time together and intimate time is even less. She told me not long ago that work is the most important thing in her life.
> 
> I'm lost and lonely. I'm hurt. I miss my best friend, and I have no idea what to do. Attempts to talk are met with confrontation or hostility to even outright avoidance. Most of her running group is either single or divorced. I just don't know anymore what to think. Is it normal 30 something female behavior or am I missing something?


Bla bla bla. 

Your wife is cheating on you with someone in the group. 

These story has been told time and time again. 

Said wife spends all of her time with the running group. Even her bday. 

Your story is so damn close to others I have read about it’s not funny. 

Your wife is cheating on you. 

Do not confront her. 

Document all the time she spends away from the family. 

See a lawyer about divorce. Get all the information needed to know your opinions. 

Once you have all of the information. File for divorce and have her served at work or at her running club. 

Do not confront her at all. If you do she will bs you into next year. 

She has already checked out of the marriage. Time for you to do the same. 

Read about and follow The 180 plan. It will help you disconnect like your wife has. 

Only talk about the kids. 

Another thing to do is start going out yourself every other weekend. Inform her that you need time away as well and she needs to watch the kids. Do not tell her what you are up to. Just say you are meeting up with friends. Then do what ever.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

Sounds that she has cut you off from a good part of her life, assuming she is doing what she says and not cheating. I know a thing or two about cheating and how women easily lie about where they are going and what they are doing. I was burned twice. Not that cheating guys are any better but I have no experience with a man cheating on me. 

Sounds that your marriage has become limited to what your wife wants you to share with her. I have seen poor husbands who keep on hanging on despite living a separate life from them. Why not, she has all the advantages of being married but also a separate life apart from you. You see to be in a friends with benefits relationship. I have been there myself. My ex girlfriend never introduced me to her friends or even went on a date with me at one point. She came home, ate and had sex with me before bedtime but that was it. Turned out they sex was to keep me from knowing she was having sex with her friends. Figured if she kept me sexually happy I would not question her or check up where she was. 

I suggest that you verify where your wife is in some manner. I can track my wife with her iPhone. If your wife says she is going someplace, call that place and ask for her. Follow her if you have to. I cannot tell you how blindly accepting what you are told can result in. Good luck.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Staying in a bad marriage would do more harm to your kids then divorcing that cheating wife of yours.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

OP,

This exact same thing happened to my neighbors starting last year. She began getting in shape and running all the time. Then always being away without him at running events. 

They also have two grade school age kids. End result ? Yes she began cheating and she over the summer moved out with the kids, and I assume they are divorcing.

BTW, his inaction is really costing him now. He was very passive in his approach to her.

Yes your wife is cheating and looking to leave you. Actually, she already has left you really.

Also, since you asked about age, they are both mid 30's as well.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Normal? Well it's not un-normal in that a lot of marriages fall part like this. But it's also trouble, big trouble. Your wife might be cheating. Or she might have just created a life for herself that fills her needs with friends. You have let this go so far that it's going to be hard to turn it around. The best thing you could do right now is to shake up the status quo.

If you want to see what a good marriage should look like, get the books "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs". Read them. At some point you will need to confront her and tell her that either she re-join your marriage or you are divorcing her. At that point ask her to read the books and do the work they say to do with you.

Do you have any interest in running at all? You could join the running group. Have you considered that... putting yourself center in her hobby?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Some people collect stamps, some golf, some run and do 5k/triathlon/marathons, some do volunteer work at animal shelters etc etc etc etc there are a million different hobbies and activities that people do. 

For the last several years my hobby has been reading and posting on relationship, infidelity and swinging forums. (pathetic I know LOL) 

But in several years of being involved in relationship/marriage forums, infidelity forums and swinging forums, I have never heard anyone mentioning running groups without it involving married people screwing someone in the group. 

(Maybe I need to take up running!!!!!!!! :-D )

Now we mustn't assume that everyone in a running group is cheating so lets take her involvement with that group out of the equation.....

…..she is still showing all the other classic signs of being involved with someone else. 

And you are showing the classic signs of denial and avoidance by not looking into it and finding the truth. 

Your wife is quite involved with someone(s) else and you are keeping your head in the sand.


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## Pajawi (Apr 3, 2018)

She says I'm being controlling, which from her perspective may be accurate. If by controlling it means I have become jealous or suspicious, then yes. If by controlling it means I have voiced my displeasure at being left out and her being gone lots of time, then yes I am. If being controlling means wishing she were with me and the family more and expressing that, then yes I am a controlling person. If it means, I have asked her for phone access, then yep, I'm that guy. If it means that sometimes I overreact when I should probably just ride it out, then it's true. She says I belittle her and criticize her ... I just want her to hear me and know that she has a place in our marriage and family, but I guess it comes out wrong. 

I'm tired. Too tired to fight this anymore. I hurt for her, I hurt for me, and I hurt for our kids most.


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

Pajawi said:


> I've been married to my wife for 16 years. Ups and downs, including my fierce struggle with porn (clean now for about 2 years) and it's effect on us. I make this clear: I am a flawed man and the biggest problem our marriage faces is me.
> 
> However, my wife has developed over the years a running hobby for fitness and friendship. She also works hard (both educators). The social aspect of her running group has grown. She is the extovert and I'm not. Her work load is also heavy. With 2 kids our alone time is limited already, but has recently become non existent. It's work, running, etc. And now, it's adding social events with her running group on the weekends. I'm left alone much of the time with the kids. She doesn't invite me along. This weekend was her birthday. She had a work obligation and will be spending the day now with her running friends at a winery and then dinner to celebrate her birthday. I asked about us celebrating and we ended up only doing a small dinner she chose ( fast food at that). She only ever talks work with me or running. We don't engage in conversation often because it's home from running the off to bed because she's tired. We spend very little time together and intimate time is even less. She told me not long ago that work is the most important thing in her life.
> 
> I'm lost and lonely. I'm hurt. I miss my best friend, and I have no idea what to do. Attempts to talk are met with confrontation or hostility to even outright avoidance. Most of her running group is either single or divorced. I just don't know anymore what to think. Is it normal 30 something female behavior or am I missing something?


even though everyone here says your wife is screwing someone in her running club (and they are probably right)....let me ask you something.

so you had a porn addiction......and call it whatever you want, but all forms of addictions are harmful to relationships.

your wife's running addiction...is harming your relationship (assuming she isnt cheating).

now some may come here and complain running is entirely different then porn and that may be true. but if you are intellectually honest......her addiction really is causing damage to the relationship...and she obviously has no issue with that. 

so she hammers you for looking at porn, with no thought to the reality of what her addiction is doing. sounds pretty ridiculous to me.

you need to find out if she is cheating and then take appropriate action.


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

what's even more ironic is if your wife gave you grief because of porn.....and turns out to be a cheater.....how ironic is THAT?


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## EunuchMonk (Jan 3, 2016)

x598 said:


> what's even more ironic is if your wife gave you grief because of porn.....and turns out to be a cheater.....how ironic is THAT?


As you mentioned that, I think she will use that as a justification for why she is cheating (if she is). Porn = cheating. That type of logic.


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

EunuchMonk said:


> As you mentioned that, I think she will use that as a justification for why she is cheating (if she is). Porn = cheating. That type of logic.


then i guess she shouldn't have had a problem with it in the first place? but i am sure you are right......i cheated because YOU did XYZ...........


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Most people divorce for reasons other than cheating. They divorce for reasons similar to the way that your wife is treating you now, so you do not need to prove cheating to put your foot down, and demand change or else.

That being said, your wife is probably either cheating with someone in the group, or is using the group as cover so that she can cheat with someone not in the group. The fact that you are not invited to ever socialize with a group of people that are now her best friends speaks volumes. This is not normal. I have been married for decades, and we both have socialized with all of each other’s friends. This is not to say that we do not do many things with these friends without the other, but it is to say that we each know and spend time with the other spouse’s friends.

Either follow your wife a few times when she goes out, or hire a PI to do so. You need to do it a few times because odds are she does spend time with these friends without her affair partner. There are some times that will jump out at you as times that she should be followed, such as on her birthday. Follow your gut in this.

Again, even if she is not yet cheating, she is giving you good enough reason for divorce as is. You have a right to not be lonely. You have a right to have a real marriage. You have a right to seek happiness either with her, or someone else if she no longer cares to include you in her life. Bottom line is that nothing will change unless you take action to make it change. Fear of change is holding you back, but change is happening anyway, but it is happening exclusively on your wife’s terms. Be well. I am sorry that you are here.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

You don't say how your porn addiction affected your family. Did you opt out of family activities to indulge? Was your wife forced to look for friendship outside of the marriage because you weren't available? 

You have cleaned up your act for the last 2 years; but, your wife has already checked out. It may be a case of too little/too late for her. Have you asked her to attend marriage counseling with you?


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

You're wallowing in this because you're a talker not a doer.

This is your future until she dumps you.

Laying in the victims chair is getting you? What?


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## Pajawi (Apr 3, 2018)

Blondilocks said:


> You don't say how your porn addiction affected your family. Did you opt out of family activities to indulge? Was your wife forced to look for friendship outside of the marriage because you weren't available?
> 
> You have cleaned up your act for the last 2 years; but, your wife has already checked out. It may be a case of too little/too late for her. Have you asked her to attend marriage counseling with you?


I have asked for marital counseling many times. I have attended by myself. The porn did not affect family time and I was like a functioning alcoholic in that life was normal except for this thing I did on the side. But no skipped holidays, bedtimes, dates, etc. Not that it makes it any better though.


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## Pajawi (Apr 3, 2018)

Marc878 said:


> You're wallowing in this because you're a talker not a doer.
> 
> This is your future until she dumps you.
> 
> Laying in the victims chair is getting you? What?


Thank you for your "help" and "insight".


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

It takes two to make a marriage. Until you wake up and do something constructive you'll just get more ow what you're getting.

I would like everyone else advise you to check your phone bill.


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

Pajawi said:


> Thank you for your "help" and "insight".


I am wondering if your response to the post is sarcasm. looks like it from here.

maybe, instead of being offended by his opinion......ponder the potential truth in their words.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Pajawi said:


> She says I'm being controlling...


Have you read any of the threads over on Coping with Infidelity? This is basically Cheater-Speak 101.



Pajawi said:


> If it means, I have asked her for phone access, then yep, I'm that guy.


So did she hand over the phone? 



Pajawi said:


> She says I belittle her and criticize her …


Well of course she does. After all, she wants her freedom to do her thing. She's guilting you into thinking you're holding her back. Whether it's an affair or just her desire to live footloose and fancy free, she's going to do what she needs to do to continue hanging out and (probably) banging whoever.

The thing is, you are getting defensive when folks here are pointing out the truth of this situation. Granted, you can sit around and just take this crap. You can also allow your wife to manipulate you with guilt. After all, you were a porn addict. So what better way for her to get you to back off every single time you want to know just what the hell IS going on in YOUR marriage.

Maybe it's time to man up and confront her. To hell with all this you're-controlling-me crap. 

Get to the bottom of what is going on. Or, if you choose, you can just live with it and be miserable. Your life. Your choice.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I don't often tell people to check for the affair first. I think marriages fall apart for a lot of reasons other than that. But in YOUR case, I'm going to say this: do this one thing before you do anything else: Look up your wife's phone records and pick out the 2 or 3 numbers that she calls most often. Then look for the one number she calls or texts at weird hours. 

If you can't find any numbers like that, then I'll go on to step 2 in what you need to do. But I'm not going to give advice if you won't even consider the possibility and check.


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## Pajawi (Apr 3, 2018)

turnera said:


> I don't often tell people to check for the affair first. I think marriages fall apart for a lot of reasons other than that. But in YOUR case, I'm going to say this: do this one thing before you do anything else: Look up your wife's phone records and pick out the 2 or 3 numbers that she calls most often. Then look for the one number she calls or texts at weird hours.
> 
> If you can't find any numbers like that, then I'll go on to step 2 in what you need to do. But I'm not going to give advice if you won't even consider the possibility and check.


I have looked. It doesn't seem that there is anything obvious there. However, I will say that the phone is locked (I don't know information) and with her at all times. She also uses things like FB messenger to text, which makes it hard to know who a person is connecting to. I appreciate your help. 

Really, everyone, I'm taking in what you are writing. I know everyone means well. I'm just numb and so hurt that I'm a little slow on my feet right now. I don't know what I want, and there are my two kids involved who I'd do anything for, even if it meant staying in a less than good situation for myself. Thank you all.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

It's a matter of priorities for everyone. 

We give our time and money to those things in life we consider important.

Tell her something to get her attention. I won't make any suggestions on purpose. You've heard it all.

See if she responds to you putting her on your schedule calendar for regular sex, and, H/W outings. Have these be repeating "meetings".

Don't make a big deal. Tell her to coordinate her schedule on those times.

Her answer will tell you where her priorities are. Concrete info is your friend. 

Good luck.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

ABHale said:


> Bla bla bla.
> 
> Your wife is cheating on you with someone in the group. ...
> 
> See a lawyer about divorce. Get all the information needed to know your opinions.


Holy cow! Some people in this group are so angry/hurt by previous spouses that they want everyone to pull the divorce trigger right off the bat without knowing what is going on. 

Checking phone records went obsolete years ago. People can just text with Skype, FB messenger (as the OP noted), etc. The only way to check would be to unlock the phone and read all those apps, which is probably not going to happen. 

Here's my advice. Cheating is almost beside the point here, because whether she's cheating or not, she's still checked out of the marriage. Running is a healthy hobby, and I can appreciate that (I run marathons myself). But here its become her social focus too, and when you add work to that, you have an absent spouse. She says she won't go to counseling. Well, I would give her an ultimatum with three options: *1) either she drastically changes her schedule, or 2) agrees to counseling, or 3) you file for legal separation*. Let her choose which of those three she prefers.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

whether your invited or not i would invite myself to her events, its one thing if its only women friends but if men are invited then by all means you should attend and take up running...look you can either fight them or join them...and if she says your controlling you can say, is it controlling that i love you and i want to share our lives together. but i would still plant VARs


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Lostinthought61 said:


> whether your invited or not i would invite myself to her events, its one thing if its only women friends but if men are invited then by all means you should attend and take up running...look you can either fight them or join them...and if she says your controlling you can say, is it controlling that i love you and i want to share our lives together. but i would still plant VARs


OP you didn't specify whether her group is all women? 

She is so far out of line never including you in any of these social events, I would never think to not include my significant other in something so important to me. I agree with others that the likelihood of her cheating is very high here, whether its with another member, or if she is just using the group activities as her cover story. I had a friend who was cheating on her husband, and going to the gym was her cover. She would go, park her car there, and he would pick her up. That way if hubby decided to cruise by, there was her car in the parking lot. 

If she ISNT cheating, then at the least her priorities are all screwed up. I understand that everyone needs a hobby or their own something special in their life. But you cant sacrifice your family and marriage in those pursuits. You do need a come to jesus talk, for sure, and be prepared that she may choose what she wants over being with you. I am really sorry you are here. I hope that with all this going on, you are still able to abstain from your own addiction.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

OP, Your first post in April: 

"I've been married to my wife for over 15 years, two kids. About a year ago my wifevstarted acting strange. During and around sex she asked random questions such as "how do you know what size condom is right for you?". Then, she "measured" me one day with her hand. She insisted she was just curious. A few weeks later, I overheard her having a flirty conversation on the phone with a male running friend. When confronted she insisted everything was innicent. But, the conversation with the interest in my penis was unsettling. Recently, she has asked me about my penis again. Things like "so this is where you were circumcised?" and "what is the purpose of circumcision?". Again, random and strange. She has had either an "on" or "totally off" sex interest. Am I just overthinking, or should I be concerned?"

So what is really new now? She goes out with 'friends' while you watch the kids. 

What are you going to do about this? Are you actually just going to sit back and wait for her to tell you what is really going on? 

Wake up.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> OP, Your first post in April:
> 
> "I've been married to my wife for over 15 years, two kids. About a year ago my wifevstarted acting strange. During and around sex she asked random questions such as "how do you know what size condom is right for you?". Then, she "measured" me one day with her hand. She insisted she was just curious. A few weeks later, I overheard her having a flirty conversation on the phone with a male running friend. When confronted she insisted everything was innicent. But, the conversation with the interest in my penis was unsettling. Recently, she has asked me about my penis again. Things like "so this is where you were circumcised?" and "what is the purpose of circumcision?". Again, random and strange. She has had either an "on" or "totally off" sex interest. Am I just overthinking, or should I be concerned?"
> 
> ...


Holy crap... this sheds new light! Well, brighter light anyway...OP you better do something quick, like, NOW...


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> Holy crap... this sheds new light! Well, brighter light anyway...OP you better do something quick, like, NOW...


One of the things I have noticed on TAM is that people in denial ask the same basic questions in separate posts hoping for a different answer...

My 2 cents. In this particular case not only is it pretty obvious OPs wife is cheating but is actually cruel about . She is flaunting it w/o admitting it outright. That's the type of wayward who actually finds ecstasy in being cruel.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Pajawi said:


> I have looked. It doesn't seem that there is anything obvious there.


So you looked at the phone records and you can account for all the numbers she texts? Nobody she's texting at 2am? Or 3 times in an hour? 




> there are my two kids involved who I'd do anything for, even if it meant staying in a less than good situation for myself. Thank you all.


Ok, if nothing else, PLEASE do not go down the 'I have to keep the marriage intact so the kids don't have two homes' BS route. Guess what happens to kids who grow up in a home where one parent cheats? They grow up to become cheaters. Guess what happens to kids who grow up in a home where one parent treats the other parent like sh*t? They grow up to either treat their spouse like sh*t or to MARRY a person who treats THEM like sh*t.

We become what we experience as children. If you're in a dysfunctional marriage and your wife is living a completely separate life from you, you ARE harming your kids by (1) accepting it or (2) not demanding that it change.

Have you read No More Mr Nice Guy yet? This would be a good time to read it. Since you can't seem to muster enough strength to do anything else, at least read this book, ok? You're going to come back and say OMG, this was written in my living room!

Even if she by some odd chance is not cheating, she has REPLACED you in her life. She now has a fulfilling, thrilling, vibrant life with her SINGLE friends and you are clearly not invited. Why is that? Because you have been so weak that she lost all respect for you and BECAUSE she now has no respect for you, she doesn't even pretend to care that you're being walked all over. Because she knows you will never do anything about it. So as long as you're willing to sit there, babysit for her, pay her bills, make her life easy, expect no sex, why should she leave?


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

As humans on this planet for a finite time, the most valuable commodity we have is simply time. More valuable than anything else.

So who we spend our time with is telling of how we feel.

She is spending her time with someone else or spending her time communicating with someone else. You need to find out who. Her phone might not tell you is she is efficient at deleting stuff, using messenger/chat apps etc. However a combination of phone records (especially ones that are on a bill but deleted from the phone), VARs, tracking apps etc. or even a PI can get you the answers you seek.

Even if she is not having an affair, she is giving her time to someone else (and therefore values the someone else more than you and your family) and this should be of concern. Eventually, you will get the proof you need and you can even threaten a poly to get to the truth.

So what are you going to do about it ? Lets see if you have been listening and have a plan. If you do not, then ask for help with that and the good folk of TAM will help you with that too. But it is ultimately up to you to do something!


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## Pajawi (Apr 3, 2018)

We will be talking tonight. We will see. Any advice on the conversation would be great.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Pajawi said:


> I don't know what I want, and there are my two kids involved who I'd do anything for, even if it meant staying in a less than good situation for myself.


Seriously consider that your kids see you and your wife as role models. You may only see this situation as less than perfect for you. However, your kids are part of the family unit. Seeing mom gone a great deal because she is out doing her own thing while dad sits at home and stews isn't good. I doubt you want to see them end up in a similar situation when they marry.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

The only advice I can give you regarding tonight's conversation is don't let her railroad you with the you're-controlling-me crap.

Say what you mean and mean what you say. That may sound trite, but it works.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

Pajawi said:


> We will be talking tonight. We will see. Any advice on the conversation would be great.


What are you going to talk about that you have not already mentioned to her?


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Theseus said:


> Holy cow! Some people in this group are so angry/hurt by previous spouses that they want everyone to pull the divorce trigger right off the bat without knowing what is going on.
> 
> Checking phone records went obsolete years ago. People can just text with Skype, FB messenger (as the OP noted), etc. The only way to check would be to unlock the phone and read all those apps, which is probably not going to happen.
> 
> Here's my advice. Cheating is almost beside the point here, because whether she's cheating or not, she's still checked out of the marriage. Running is a healthy hobby, and I can appreciate that (I run marathons myself). But here its become her social focus too, and when you add work to that, you have an absent spouse. She says she won't go to counseling. Well, I would give her an ultimatum with three options: *1) either she drastically changes her schedule, or 2) agrees to counseling, or 3) you file for legal separation*. Let her choose which of those three she prefers.


No projection, I have never been cheated on.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Look, here's the #1 rule in relationships. Know your boundaries and know your consequences. There are tons and tons of articles on line to read up on this before tonight's meeting; please do so.

What are boundaries/consequences? Each person in a marriage has them. You just may not realize it. A boundary is what you can tolerate. What you can't tolerate. For instance, you may say "I won't tolerate my wife sleeping with another man," but if you see a phone full of messages, you may still talk yourself out of enacting your consequence (leaving the marriage) because you didn't actually catch them in bed. Now, if you DID come home in the middle of the day (do you ever do that?) and catch her and her lover in YOUR bed together, naked, would THAT be your boundary? The line in the sand?

Before you have this meeting, you need to decide what your boundaries ARE. I must have a wife who invites me to hang out with her friends at least 50% of the time. I must have a wife who gives me sex at least once a week. I must have a wife who puts her kids ahead of her friends. 

Whatever they are, spend some time, alone, picturing your ideal marriage. Now picture what you're willing to compromise on. You may WANT a wife who is with you every minute she's not at work. But you may COMPROMISE on a wife who only goes out with her friends once a week. See how that works?

Come up with that list. Take it with you to the meeting. In that list, share what you are willing to do for HER, so she doesn't see this just as a b*tch session. Show her you're willing to meet her halfway.

Now, once you have your list of what you absolutely have to have in a marriage (any marriage, not just with her), then come up with corresponding CONSEQUENCES.

Now, despite what you may think, consequences are not what they sound like. They're not something you do TO someone. You're not that kind of person. Consequences are what YOU do, once your boundaries are crossed. Consequences are what you will TELL your wife tonight will happen if the two of you don't come up with some agreement.

Why is this so important? Because you can't control her. You can't make her be with you, you can't make her respect you, you can't make her want you. By establishing - and clarifying to her - what YOU will and will not tolerate, you are informing her of what YOUR life is going to look like moving forward.

Now, odds are high that she's going to tell you tonight that she wants a divorce. All the signs are there. It will either be that, or it will be her telling you that she 'deserves' this and she WILL continue hanging out with her friends whenever and however she wants, and you can't do anything about it. This is called a sh*t test. It's what women do to find out if their man has any balls. 

These go back to caveman days - when women literally NEED a strong man, to survive. It's in our DNA. We literally grow to despise weak men. This is why I told you to read the book No More Mr Nice Guy. If you want her hanging on you, desiring you, you HAVE to become stronger. You HAVE to set up your boundaries AND be willing to enact your consequences, even if it means walking away from the marriage. Bottom line, you will NEVER become #1 to her again unless you are willing to risk losing her. That's just how humans work.

Now, one thing to remember - even if you say you're heading to divorce, that doesn't mean you're immediately getting divorced. You can file for legal separation. You can set up an apartment. You can file for divorce and have it not take effect for another year. Just saying you're heading for divorce is just a path; not a final destination. And I've seen dozens of times here where one person says 'I've had enough, I deserve to be respected, and I'm better off without you if you won't give that' that the other person wakes up and realizes what they're about to lose. And gets their head out of their ass.

Anyway, sorry for the book, but if you read through this a couple times - and make time to google boundaries/consequences and read a couple articles, you might be ok in this meeting.

Above all, remember this: stay or leave, your life won't end if she decides to move on. In fact, from what I've seen, YOUR life will improve. So go into the meeting knowing that you will be ok no matter what happens.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Pajawi said:


> I have looked. It doesn't seem that there is anything obvious there. However, I will say that the phone is locked (I don't know information) and with her at all times. She also uses things like FB messenger to text, which makes it hard to know who a person is connecting to. I appreciate your help.
> 
> Really, everyone, I'm taking in what you are writing. I know everyone means well. I'm just numb and so hurt that I'm a little slow on my feet right now. I don't know what I want, and there are my two kids involved who I'd do anything for, even if it meant staying in a less than good situation for myself. Thank you all.


 @Pajawi, Some questions:-

Who diagnosed you as having a porn addiction?

How bad was the porn addiction?

How did your wife become aware of your addiction?

What type/s of porn were you addicted to?


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Don't make any ultimatums you are not prepared to back up.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Pajawi said:


> We will be talking tonight. We will see. Any advice on the conversation would be great.


First of all make sure that you have all your facts listed in order so that she sees that you have a record of what she has been doing and when it started and to what extent it has been going on (a sort of recap of her behaviour that she cannot refute or deny).

Next, explain to her about how time is the most valuable commodity anyone can have and that her spending time with anyone else is an indication of how much she values you and your family compared to the someone else.

Also be very forthcoming and clear with your view on boundaries (as per Turnera's advice) and make sure she understands your boundaries and why they are there.

Do not let her derail the conversation with false accusations, side tracking etc - make sure you stay on topic and do not accept blame where it is not applicable. Also make sure she understands what you blame her for. She will try to turn the tables on you and you need to stand your ground.

Accept that you probably did damage with your porn viewing but this does not justify her behaviour. She should deal with problems in the right way - confront you, seek help and then split if no positive results are obtained within a reasonable time period. Cheating of any kind is never acceptable and such behaviour is totally on her and not your doing.

Make sure you get answers or confirmation to questions or points raised by you. Do not let it get swept under the carpet.



Hope this helps.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Absolutely. And SHE WILL TRY to blame everything on you. Don't respond. Don't say a word. If you defend yourself, YOU LOSE. Just sit there and listen and wait til she's done. Then repeat your boundaries. Let her blow up again, just sit back, listen. NOT responding takes back the power.


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## Pajawi (Apr 3, 2018)

@Pajawi, Some questions:-

Who diagnosed you as having a porn addiction?

How bad was the porn addiction?

How did your wife become aware of your addiction?

What type/s of porn were you addicted to?[/QUOTE]

The porn addiction would be self diagnosed. It was not something that happened daily, but often. I disclosed it to my wife. The type?? Run of the mill porn; nothing extreme.


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## Pajawi (Apr 3, 2018)

I appreciate your many kind words and suggestions. Unfortunately the conversation did not take place today. I will try again tomorrow evening. Thank you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Excellent! Gives you time to read up on boundaries and consequences. And No More Mr Nice Guy!


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I think you're a hero for weeding porn out of your life. Don't expect any respect from anyone on TAM or from your wife. They're mostly all addicted too and women can never understand (not having testosterone).


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

x598 said:


> what's even more ironic is if your wife gave you grief because of porn.....and turns out to be a cheater.....how ironic is THAT?


X598,

I haven't read the whole thread yet. However, the current state of your marriage is not all on your wife. Your past history has helped to bring it to this state. Your porn addiction has done untold damage. The lack of intimacy, the loneliness for your wife, your lack of engagement, etc made her decide to take up some activity that helped her focus and get her needs met elsewhere. If you had been a decent and available man, then maybe she would not have had to get her needs met elsewhere.
So bombarding her with what she is now not doing for you or the marriage is not going to help. You have to stop being a ***** about it and be a leader in your family.

1. sit her down and have an honest open conversation about how things are
2. come to some middle ground
3. suggest counselling
4. get a life for yourself, take up some hobby, gym, etc
5. investigate your wife to see if she is playing outside the marriage (but do not jump to conclusions). 

She has probably been very hurt by you, there is probably alot of resentment. Your attitude is , now I am better, over my addiction wifey, so why cant you get with the programme? Who do you actually think you are?
Addictions of any sort destroy the foundation of marriage and it takes two very strong and willing partners to get past it. She may have decided she never will, have you been honest about this or have you just rug swept your role in the marriage?


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Pajawi said:


> I have asked for marital counseling many times. I have attended by myself. The porn did not affect family time and *I was like a functioning alcoholic in that life was normal except *for this thing I did on the side. But no skipped holidays, bedtimes, dates, etc. Not that it makes it any better though.


Let me correct you there, living with a functioning A does not make life normal. i know, I live with one. It ****s over the family, the family see everything, all the late appointments, the broken promises, the anger, the lack of engagement, the absences, etc. So get your head out of your arse and own your ****!


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Pajawi said:


> We will be talking tonight. We will see. Any advice on the conversation would be great.


Is not not a bit premature, don't let her know you know that she might be cheating. The penis discussion is a huge red flag. Shut up and get more evidence, then blow her and OM out of the water.

If you have a chat with her now, you will put her on notice and it will go underground. You other thread about the "penis" discussion as to be included here so people have a fuller picture. Do you have enough evidence to go scorched earth? If not, do not do it....yet.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Pajawi said:


> She says I'm being controlling, which from her perspective may be accurate. If by controlling it means I have become jealous or suspicious, then yes. If by controlling it means I have voiced my displeasure at being left out and her being gone lots of time, then yes I am. If being controlling means wishing she were with me and the family more and expressing that, then yes I am a controlling person. If it means, I have asked her for phone access, then yep, I'm that guy. If it means that sometimes I overreact when I should probably just ride it out, then it's true. She says I belittle her and criticize her ... I just want her to hear me and know that she has a place in our marriage and family, but I guess it comes out wrong.
> 
> I'm tired. Too tired to fight this anymore. I hurt for her, I hurt for me, and I hurt for our kids most.


Spouses always describe their partner as controlling when they want to do whatever they want with whomever they want and their partner is uncomfortable with it and wants them to be a spouse instead. Tell her if you're "controlling" you're obviously not doing a very good job at it since she isn't doing anything you've asked for.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

CatholicDad said:


> I think you're a hero for weeding porn out of your life. Don't expect any respect from anyone on TAM or from your wife. They're mostly all addicted too and women can never understand (not having testosterone).


Huh? Nobody's even talking about that one way or another. We're trying to help him deal with a wife in full crazy disrespect mode.


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## Pajawi (Apr 3, 2018)

turnera said:


> Excellent! Gives you time to read up on boundaries and consequences. And No More Mr Nice Guy!


I ordered the book for Kindle and began reading. Very good so far. No resolution or decision yet.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Its normal if your wife is cheating. Not normal at all in a healthy relationship. You need to do some detective work.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

Sir,

What does your gut tell you? Trust your gut. As others have told you the condom issue is a huge red flag. Secondly, the control issue.You need to go into detective mode. Go through closets, dresser drawers,the trunk of her car, and look for any lingerie you have never seen before.Get a VAR in her car. Wake the hell up. You are being played big time.

Please keep your mouth shut. Do not confront until you have her in the crosshairs. Been there done that.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

@Pajawi - Please listen to Lonely husband. He knows of what he speaks.

Reading up is good. Inaction isn't. Get a VAR. Like NOW.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Prodigal said:


> @Pajawi - Please listen to Lonely husband. He knows of what he speaks.
> 
> Reading up is good. Inaction isn't. Get a VAR. Like NOW.


AND...Lonely Husband is one of the FEW success stories here.


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

aine said:


> X598,
> 
> I haven't read the whole thread yet. However, the current state of your marriage is not all on your wife. Your past history has helped to bring it to this state. Your porn addiction has done untold damage. The lack of intimacy, the loneliness for your wife, your lack of engagement, etc made her decide to take up some activity that helped her focus and get her needs met elsewhere. If you had been a decent and available man, then maybe she would not have had to get her needs met elsewhere.
> So bombarding her with what she is now not doing for you or the marriage is not going to help. You have to stop being a ***** about it and be a leader in your family.
> ...


your logic and please correct me if I am wrong......basically justifies her (probably) having an affair. are you say that is ok?

if she is so hurt and detached over his porn use....fine......she can choose to leave the relationship over it.

but it sounds as if that's in the past. and if so...it isn't a poker chip to play, hall pass, whatever......to go out and do what I would consider to be WORSE behavior.

is she actually cheating? we don't know but the majority around here think so and they are usually right.


and I still stand by my position that her being upset about him watching porn......and then having an affair...well that's hypocrisy on an even higher level.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

Pajawi said:


> I ordered the book for Kindle and began reading. Very good so far. No resolution or decision yet.


Consider also reading Larry Winget’s “Grow a Pair”. Easy read with a solid messsage.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> Consider also reading Larry Winget’s “Grow a Pair”. Easy read with a solid messsage.


And also Hold On To Your N.U.T.s.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

I re-read this thread as it struck a chord with me. You sir need to go into stealth mode. Something is definitely amiss. You need to place a GPS on her vehicle, VARs in the car and keep you lip zipped and eyes open.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

x598 said:


> your logic and please correct me if I am wrong......basically justifies her (probably) having an affair. are you say that is ok?
> 
> if she is so hurt and detached over his porn use....fine......she can choose to leave the relationship over it.
> 
> ...


X598, I am absolutely not condoning her affair at all (assuming she is actually having one, some red flags are there). The decent approach is to tell OP, I am hurt and angry and I want ot leave the marriage, etc.

However we must put things in context. When the damage is done to a marriage, from addictions, it leaves the door open for affairs, walk away spouses, etc. HIs own attitude towards his functional alcoholism is very telling. It seems its no big deal. It appears he replaced one addiction with another, but the way he writes is that she is not doing enough in the marriage. Well any sort of addiction are already marriage busters. I am simply calling OP out on his own behaviour and contribution to the current state of affairs in his marriage.

If she is cheating then that is totally on her, but to blame her totally for the state of the marriage which OP has indicated is crap.
I am just wondering how much effort has been put into repairing the damage or whether it is actually possible to repair the damage. Leaving a marriage isn't the only solution, going to counselling, more transparency, etc are alternatives. What I do not understand is why OP is so keen to stay in the marriage, perhaps deep down he knows his own actions, addictions are all a huge threat to the marriage, yet he totally focuses on what she is not doing. I call Bull **** on this!

I am also really jaded by how many (usually males) on TAM jump to 'she's cheating on you' mode. However, the fact OP had a serious porn addiction now followed by functioniong alcoholism which he says enables his family to have a normal life, so it's all good. Yah right! Sometimes you gotta see the bigger picture. I would suggest OP investigate his wife sure but he ought to start taking the plank out of his own eye first.


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## Pajawi (Apr 3, 2018)

aine said:


> x598 said:
> 
> 
> > your logic and please correct me if I am wrong......basically justifies her (probably) having an affair. are you say that is ok?
> ...


Aine, 

Your response is full of inaccuracies. Ever hear of a comparison (reference alcoholic comment). Also, if you read the whole thread and my original post, you should hopefully see that I do, have, and will take full responsibility for my errors and hurt. You said "I am jaded" - maybe that peppers your responses. Since that is the case, I will give you the benefit of the doubt, but please read.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Pajawi said:


> Aine,
> 
> Your response is full of inaccuracies. Ever hear of a comparison (reference alcoholic comment). Also, if you read the whole thread and my original post, you should hopefully see that I do, have, and will take full responsibility for my errors and hurt. You said "I am jaded" - maybe that peppers your responses. Since that is the case, I will give you the benefit of the doubt, but please read.


Ok, I get you, it’s no excuse for her cheating, and by the way not a good reference at all (functioning alcoholic one).


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## SGr (Mar 19, 2015)

It's near impossible to maintain a healthy relationship with someone who's not "present" even when they are present. 

Sent from my BLA-A09 using Tapatalk


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

@Pajawi - Are you going to buy a VAR?


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

aine said:


> I am also really jaded by how many (usually males) on TAM jump to 'she's cheating on you' mode.


And it's astounding how many times they are RIGHT and the amount of (usually females) who don't eat crow when they unequivocally stated the "she's cheating" crowd was out of line and wrong in those exact instances.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Rubix Cubed said:


> And it's astounding how many times they are RIGHT and the amount of (usually females) who don't eat crow when they unequivocally stated the "she's cheating" crowd was out of line and wrong in those exact instances.


I am not sure what you guys are arguing about... 

But this dudes wife is cheating and she has been cheating for a while. 

Not much doubt about it.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> I am not sure what you guys are arguing about...
> 
> But this dudes wife is cheating and she has been cheating for a while.
> 
> Not much doubt about it.


I assume you're trying to be "snarky cool" but if not it's
the standard "I'm not condoning the affair" and "the cheating is all on her" then blaming it all on the BH, while simultaneously lambasting any male who points out a cheater is cheating. As seen below.



aine said:


> X598, I am absolutely not condoning her affair at all (assuming she is actually having one, some red flags are there). The decent approach is to tell OP, I am hurt and angry and I want ot leave the marriage, etc.
> 
> However we must put things in context. When the damage is done to a marriage, from addictions, it leaves the door open for affairs, walk away spouses, etc. HIs own attitude towards his functional alcoholism is very telling. It seems its no big deal. It appears he replaced one addiction with another, but the way he writes is that she is not doing enough in the marriage. Well any sort of addiction are already marriage busters. I am simply calling OP out on his own behaviour and contribution to the current state of affairs in his marriage.
> 
> ...


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