# Advice Needed on Path to Reconciliation



## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Alright, some of you will be familiar with my story (now removed), but, either way, I need a bit of advice on the crazy twists and turns that things have taken in the meantime.

Female points of view would be especially appreciated!

As quick background, we've been separated for just over three months, due to a general deterioration in our relationship after 10 years together. She left, didn't love me any more. Two young children in the mix.

Since separating, she has been begun seeing someone casually, sex included, as have I. We're generally open and logical in this department so, while it stings for each of us just a bit, I don't see that fact having any particular role to play as far as reconciliation is concerned.

Since the moment she left, I have done most everything right. After a couple of days of showing weakness and a bit of desperation, I've been strong, nice, courteous, assertive, never losing my cool, independent etc.

After about a month of barely wanting to be around me, we started spending some time together during drop-offs for the kids, with lots of long friendly phone conversations thrown in. I encouraged some family time in the beginning, she wasn't interested. Now, she's pushing for regular family time together, including full days out.

When I found out she was seeing someone, I expressed some discomfort, but played it super cool. When she found out I was seeing someone, she freaked out and showed an insane amount of jealousy. She also began to speak in a sexual tone to me, and that lead to a very good impromptu sex session that I imagine will continue somewhat regularly into the future.

Now, I've been interested in bringing us back together from the start - I love her dearly, want my family together, recognize the mistakes I've made, and have done a great deal of work on improving myself in all areas. I've been active socially, getting an ego boost from the ladies, working out, and have been a better father than ever before.

She *mostly* maintains a want to remain apart, but she's beginning to slip in that area from time to time, idly speculating over how things would be if we were together, etc. It's not much in that department, but it's something.

She also wants us to continue to do things somewhat together, such as buying a second dog to share, making major purchases together, etc.

So, my question is, am I making progress? Obviously, this could be seen as a case of having her cake and eating it too, and it is that, but we seem to obviously be reconnecting on many levels. My plan for the summer is to allow sex and family time to continue and see where it goes, reevaluating things in a couple of months in order to decide how to continue, depending on how things go. After establishing positive family time, an awesome sex life, and always excellent interaction between her and I, I imagine pulling the plug at that point would either leave her wanting more, perhaps prompting reconciliation, or be a final nail in our coffin; I'm prepared to let it go how it goes at that point, though not without a little heartache, I'm sure.

Other than the family time and some personal time, I'm being generally aloof, focusing on my own life and leaving her be for the most part.

I know some people will want to slam me for making this easier on her than it should be, but understand two things: one, I had a great deal to do with the deterioration in our relationship, and two, I feel I owe it to myself, my kids, and her to put in my best effort, however unorthodox it may be.

So - is she cake eating and loving it, planning on a life where I'm some kind of man on the side, or am I making serious headway here?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

The answer is, you are allowing her to cake eat.

And, if you continue on this path, you will ease her right out of your life.

When she makes these requests for "family time", you should tell her you have plans - and additional pictures of your girlfriends should appear on Facebook.

You still don't quite grasp this.

Because she lost respect for you, she convinced herself no one else would have you.

Now that she knows that's not true, she's going "half in"

Do not accept that.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Here's the thing - the last few years have been so rough for us, I think leaving her alone would be simply giving her relief. That's what makes this course of action seem smart to me - taking a few months to show her what she's missing, then pulling back if no positive results come. That's the only way to leave her with good things to miss, I think. So I'm with you, just taking an extended route to get there given the circumstances.

And yes, hot new girlfriend is totally visible on FB


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Democritus said:


> Here's the thing - the last few years have been so rough for us, I think leaving her alone would be simply giving her relief. That's what makes this course of action seem smart to me - taking a few months to show her what she's missing, then pulling back if no positive results come. That's the only way to leave her with good things to miss, I think. So I'm with you, just taking an extended route to get there given the circumstances.
> 
> And yes, hot new girlfriend is totally visible on FB


Your own observations indicate what she's about.

Yet, you deny them - even when reporting them here.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Don't get me wrong - I know what she's about, and I see the inherent selfishness at work here. Because of that, I won't let this half-in approach last for long. But what's a few months of effort given what's at stake? Also keep in mind that I'm not waiting around, at least in her eyes - that's what's making her finally begin to question this split.

If she continues to try for a half-in approach, I'll kill it - already I refuse the joint purchases and such on the basis that's she's either "in or out", so I am making this point overtly at times.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Democritus said:


> Don't get me wrong - I know what she's about, and I see the inherent selfishness at work here. Because of that, I won't let this half-in approach last for long. But what's a few months of effort given what's at stake? Also keep in mind that I'm not waiting around, at least in her eyes - that's what's making her finally begin to question this split.
> 
> If she continues to try for a half-in approach, I'll kill it - already I refuse the joint purchases and such on the basis that's she's either "in or out", so I am making this point overtly at times.


If the effort is counterproductive, what's the point?

What do YOU gain from the 1/2 in bullshix?


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Well, I gain what I laid out above - giving her something to miss if/when the main goal doesn't work out. This allows me a plan B in the whole reconciliation process, and forces her to have serious doubts about her path.

If I had have gone dark from the beginning, she would have been happy to demonize me and count her blessings for having left - with the effort I've put in, she's suddenly finding herself jealous, unsure, and willing to connect in ways that were previously impossible. That's the point - whether it works out the way I'd like or not is a different story.

I take it that you don't think I'm making progress towards reconciliation here?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Instead of her missing what she could have, you're letting her have it - without commitment.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Instead of her missing what she could have, you're letting her have it - without commitment.


Only in light of my failure to provide missable things before, only temporarily, and only while asserting myself as a rebooted man from all angles.

I do see your point, and it will suck if I come to find that it's all for naught, but I don't think the time for a cut-off is just yet. Maybe sooner than the end of the summer, but not yet. Need to complete this positive impression first.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Democritus said:


> Only in light of my failure to provide missable things before, only temporarily, and only while asserting myself as a rebooted man from all angles.


Sounds like a guy who really needs to love himself.

If you devalue yourself in this way, she will too.

We need to lead - emotionally.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

I definitely love myself - that's why I'm heartily pursuing my goals!  I don't devalue myself, but I'd be a fool not to see this situation for what it is, with all of its ugly nuances. 

And leading is exactly what I'm doing - for too long I allowed her to lead, and now I'm taking back control, wherever it leads.

Big date tonight, by the way - that adds a bit of value to the whole situation


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Sounds like you have it all figured out.

Good luck.


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## A++ (May 21, 2012)

You are her plan B, if her plan As doesn't work out, that is why she is stringing you along.

It seems that she doesn't value you as a man just as another option if things with her and this guy or the next guy or the guy after that don't last.

Democritus, YOU deserve better than that.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

A++ said:


> You are her plan B, if her plan As doesn't work out, that is why she is stringing you along.
> 
> It seems that she doesn't value you as a man just as another option if things with her and this guy or the next guy or the guy after that don't last.
> 
> Democritus, YOU deserve better than that.


This is a good point, and surely true, at least to a degree. I do waver here, but my only way to combat this fact is to let her know that time is running out. For now, because stating it overtly wouldn't be smart just yet, I allow the point to be insinuated by the fact that I'm seeing someone - I stay vague on details, but she's heard through the grapevine that the girl is very into me, wanting to meet the kids (not even close to happening, for the record), etc. 

Since finding this out, she went on a two day anger binge, spent some time checking up on me, invited me over for sex, and suggested increased family time. I'm not sure the reaction could have been any better.

After giving her some more time to experience me at my very best, I will make the point overtly in a now or never manner - if she chooses the latter, I'll cut off unnecessary contact; if it works, great, and if not, then I'll officially move on knowing that I gave it my very best shot, and also knowing that I've made myself infinitely more attractive to the opposite sex.

Also, this new lady that I'm seeing is fantastic - I'm not at all ready to hand my heart over to someone new, making her my plan B, but I am being totally honest with her. If things with the wife don't end as I hope they will, there is a good chance that I'll become more serious with this woman.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Would definitely like a woman's perspective on things if anyone's available!


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## LivingAgain (Jun 12, 2013)

Woman's perspective:

She is hedging her bets.

Once she found out you had someone else, she freaked because that means you may not be an option....

Any cake eater views another that will still engage knowing they do not have to commit as weak and controllable.

I would stop wasting your time and move on.

JMHO.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Female here:

She only wants what she thinks she can't have.

She's not ready to let plan B (you) get away.

She will string you along until your girlfriend is out of the picture then it will be back to business as usual.

You say she's logical but she's not she's angry and emotional.

Your only shot at this is to keep her chasing.

Once she catches you it's over.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Thank you ladies! How do you think sex ranks in the keep her chasing thing? It's an area that I excel in (ahem), with her in particular, so seems a valuable tool to me. At first glance, it may seem best that I make her chase it, but that's not really the way we've historically worked, so not sure how to handle that. It seems almost smarter to me to initiate it, rather than come running when she decides she wants me.

Also, any particular opinions about family time? I've long been a bit of a stick in the mud, so it's a great opportunity to show a new side of me that's been long missing, but again, it forces me to make myself available when it may be smarter not to.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Looking back over this thread today, it's funny how sure I can feel of the way forward and my chances of success at times, but I still wake up each and every morning with a knot in my stomach and tears in my eyes.

No matter how things work out, I look forward to the relief of it being all over, one way or the other.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

On a related note, this family time that she's after over the summer requires a financial commitment that I have to make a final decision on today. I hate to throw my decision at feet of strangers, but I'm torn in both directions.

I want hope, but I'm at the end of my rope with all of this.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Democritus said:


> Looking back over this thread today, it's funny how sure I can feel of the way forward and my chances of success at times, but I still wake up each and every morning with a knot in my stomach and tears in my eyes.


Sounds like you're performing a series of #3's to prove yourself to her.

That's a form of self-abuse.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

The only alternative seems to be to give up on my wife, my kids, my family, and admit to myself that, despite only being in my early 30s, my dream of a steady family to love and grow old with is gone.

A nasty alternative, if I do say so myself.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Democritus said:


> The only alternative seems to be to give up on my wife, my kids, my family, and admit to myself that, despite only being in my early 30s, my dream of a steady family to love and grow old with is gone.
> 
> A nasty alternative, if I do say so myself.


A perfectly logical conclusion, if she is the only woman on earth.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Come on, Conrad - I do get exactly what you're saying, and I appreciate the bluntness, but you know there's a happy medium between the points that we're making.

She's not the only woman in the world, to be sure - but she is the only mother of my children. Therefore, in order to avoid the life of a divorced guy, losing my kids 50 percent of the time, and dealing with the rest of the bull that comes along with that for the next 15 or so years, she is necessarily a focus.

Truly, I do get what you're saying, and I do realize that some of my continuing to pursue her is based around my love for her, some of which is unfounded or based on a bit of idealizing, but there is much, much more to it than that.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

So what does the OM have planned that leaves your WW out in the dust over the summer?

Or is just the new GF you have?

My point here is what will happen to this marriage in 10 year when your in your forties and more invested after a fake R?

Lets say you get her back by the end of summer, what will prevent this crap from happening again?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Democritus said:


> Come on, Conrad - I do get exactly what you're saying, and I appreciate the bluntness, but you know there's a happy medium between the points that we're making.
> 
> She's not the only woman in the world, to be sure - but she is the only mother of my children. Therefore, in order to avoid the life of a divorced guy, losing my kids 50 percent of the time, and dealing with the rest of the bull that comes along with that for the next 15 or so years, she is necessarily a focus.
> 
> Truly, I do get what you're saying, and I do realize that some of my continuing to pursue her is based around my love for her, some of which is unfounded or based on a bit of idealizing, but there is much, much more to it than that.


Wallowing is unproductive.

Talk less, do more.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Both OM and OW are very casual things, only a month or two in existence during this separation. Our failings in marriage were obvious, many of them on me alone, so I do feel confident that we could overcome them and move on from all of this with relative ease - assuming, of course, that I'm able to get her on board.

I definitely agree with the talk less, do more idea (in my case it should also cover think less, do more), and that's why I'm trying to come up with a plan of action here.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I can respect the game plan here, my concern is OP wants to grow old with a women that my no be there in the far future, but only until the next OM comes along.

But what the hell...if you can win her back you better make sure if she wants to stick around she does the heavy lift to give you and the kids better security in protecting the family in the long run.

It has been my experience that your game plan doesn't work and in time she will break you in the month to come. Were as the alternitive would be the tough love you show her, that she has broke you now rather then when she has realy broke you in the next few months from now.

Thats the thing here, the experience from this community (the vets) have seen this game plan time and again and we know the out come.

Something tell me a new game plan would be to fake the break up of said GF and see how your WW responds????? It might be very telling for you and what is realy on your WW agenda.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

What if your WW is like a siren...you know a women that puls you away from a good thing and when her job is done she bails on you.

maybe this new GF is really a good thing?


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Is it correct to say your crappy marriage that lead to the seperation had nothing to do with infidelity?


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Yes, no infidelity on either side in 10 years. The breakdown of the relationship comes down to my neglect and lack of loving attitude, and her propensity to run instead of work on things.

At this point, the mere existence of the girlfriend seems to be what's stirring up this newfound feeling for me from my wife, so a fake breakup is definitely not in the works.

Given the wellbeing of the kids, I know with certainty that if she comes back, it's forever - she may be willing to mess with me, but she's a super mother and would never, ever play with them.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Democritus said:


> Yes, no infidelity on either side in 10 years. The breakdown of the relationship comes down to my neglect and lack of loving attitude, and her propensity to run instead of work on things.
> 
> At this point, the mere existence of the girlfriend seems to be what's stirring up this newfound feeling for me from my wife, so a fake breakup is definitely not in the works.
> 
> Given the wellbeing of the kids, I know with certainty that if she comes back, it's forever - she may be willing to mess with me, but she's a super mother and would never, ever play with them.


Superior mothers do not do what she has done.


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Superior mothers do not do what she has done.


The things they do and yet they still get put on a pedestal.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Yeah, I wrestle with that, too. Superior may not be the right word, but I do trust that her coming back would be a serious, well thought out thing.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Democritus said:


> Yeah, I wrestle with that, too. Superior may not be the right word, but I do trust that her coming back would be a serious, well thought out thing.


First time for everything.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Bottom line - you're too emotionally invested to play this game and I'll make a bet your WW knows that. Shes actually playing you - she doesn't want you with another woman so she will mess with your mind until your focus is completely back on her - then you are in the vulnerable position again & she's in control. You also said there is a substantial financial commitment you need to make for "summer family time" - is she sharing the financial responsibiliy? I get you want to save your family but you are playing a dangerous game & you will probably end up getting burned.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Democritus said:


> Yes, no infidelity on either side in 10 years. The breakdown of the relationship comes down to my neglect and lack of loving attitude, and her propensity to run instead of work on things.


My W wants a separation for pretty much the same thing. 24 years of marriage. No cheating.

She is treating me same way. I am in week 4 of dealing with living at home separation.

The GF is probably what has her interest. My W has told me she would KILL any woman who had me while we are separated.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

noas55 said:


> My W wants a separation for pretty much the same thing. 24 years of marriage. No cheating.
> 
> She is treating me same way. I am in week 4 of dealing with living at home separation.
> 
> The GF is probably what has her interest. My W has told me she would KILL any woman who had me while we are separated.


Yes it is. She may not want you right now but no one else is going to have you either. Shes keeping all her options open. I see it as a control thing. Looking at it that way - how does it make you feel??


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## Unique Username (Jul 6, 2013)

I think you are being cruel to your current "hot girlfriend visible on facebook" you have zero intentions with her...you are still pining and trying to "win" back your spouse. That is manipulative, deceitful and hurtful.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

I think my wife does love me, and this new situation is reminding her of that fact, but there are some serious trust issues that stand in the way. 

I did make the investment in summer activities for us as a family, and I'm continuing to walk a line between being entirely understanding of her feelings, talking about my intentions and hopes for us, and generally proving to her that the changes I've effected in myself are truly real and lasting.

As for the GF, I've been entirely up front with her - I'm even still wearing my wedding band! I do care about her and will do everything in my power to keep her from being hurt, no matter the eventual outcome.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

smallsteps said:


> Yes it is. She may not want you right now but no one else is going to have you either. Shes keeping all her options open. I see it as a control thing. Looking at it that way - how does it make you feel??


It makes me feel that she's angry, hurt, and confused - the changes in me and the work I've put into myself is profound and not something she expected. Sure, I'm not happy about the situation, but I'm here due to my own behavior - she loved me for 10 years even while experiencing the worst of me, so I feel that I owe her patience if I want her to believe that something fresh and new awaits us.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Sorry - I'm just not seeing it the way you are. You wanted a female point of view - that's mine. What you've got going there is a summer fantasy for her. Yes - as much as I hate to admit this - seeing your - I'm going to call it estranged spouse - have an interest or be with someone else makes a woman want to "stake their claim" to the other spouse. That is what is happening to you. I know you want to have a fun summer so you financed it but that doesn't strike you as a little strange? If you don't mind me asking - what was her situation before you decided that you were going to do all these things together this summer - I mean what was her summer going to be like if you did seperate things with your kids? If you think you are impressing her with all your changes I think there are better - healthier ways to test the waters between the two of you such as keeping your boundaries & having adult discussions about what you both expect from the future. You cant do that rationally with the scenerio you have going now - too much emotion involved.


Oh & one other thing I will say as a child of divorce myself. Maybe the two of you are playing this game but you are also involving your children. You are planning family time stuff. Your kids see the two of you acting a certain way together & you are all acting like a happy family. Now - look at it from a child's point of view - none of this works out & at the end of the summer your wife walks - what does that do to your children who have spent an entire summer watching the two of you interact like you were going to get back together?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Demo,

Time after time, I hear you shoulder 100% of the blame for the past issues in the relationship.

The DYNAMIC between the two of you was the problem.

This actually works both ways.

You didn't do anything SHE did not allow.

So, for God's sake, quit justifying weak behavior by blaming yourself.

Weak behavior is unattractive. Allowing someone else to cake eat and wipe their feet on you pushes them out of relationship with you.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad is right. Do yourself a favor- for just a few minutes really think about how your relationship went. Was it really all you? Look I come from a marriage where I could easily blame my stbxh for everything. He was domineering - jealous - had an explosive personality- dare I say a narcissist (my cousin is a therapist & has seen both of us in action - she says he is) but here's the thing - I let it go on. I let him make excuses for his outbursts. I catered to his narcissistic ways. I gave into his jealousies by giving up friends & not talking to family he didn't like. That was MY fault. I should have been a stronger person and had personal boundaries that I shouldn't have let him cross. So stop blaming yourself for everything & stop being a martyr. She knows what you're doing & shes playing it to her advantage.


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