# What has helped badsanta fix his LD/HD situation



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

When I first started visiting here, it was to look for answers regarding mismatched drives. I wanted sex way more than my wife wanted it, and it created a serious problem. So after many years here are some of the things and realizations that have helped me:

*There is likely no such thing as LD!* It was just that I wanted my wife's sexuality to respond in the same way and same times that mine does. Her's works differently, and I simply was not listening to her. She responds to completely different things that I might respond to, and it has taken quiet a bit of time to recognize and nurture these things which I will mention.

*#1 Don't get angry at her when we do not have sex!* There are many legitimate reasons I might get angry when we do not have sex, mostly revolving around her nonchalant or even sometimes vindictive ways of rejecting me. We had a big argument one night recently where she said she was too tired, and I went to watch TV only to find her unable to sleep and up reading. Had she gone to sleep, no big deal, but why would she reject me because she was sleepy, become unable to sleep, and just leave me alone knowing I wanted to be with her? Instead of allowing that anger to brew, I just went and calmly talked to her about it as a way to let go of my anger and tell her that these are the moments I struggle with the most but that I was going to let go and not get angry. By doing this, it finally started to send a message to her that I care MORE about us as a couple than just moments to have sex. Of course this is how I always feel, but when I get angry about sex my wife was getting the message that I ONLY care about sex. Now that I am not getting angry with her anymore, or making it a point to go to her and let go of it, this has been the #1 thing that has made a dramatic difference in her ability to feel receptive.

*#2 Give her a break after we have had sex!* I'm always a playful guy and like to play grab-ass around the house. But my wife struggles with the idea of feeling like she would never be enough for me. The truth is if we had sex everyday it would likely not be as great and probably feel a little forced. While I know she needs a break, more than that she needed to feel me back off and observe me satisfied. So instead of telling her how much I want her again right after sex, I focus more on letting her know how much she satisfies me! The period of time we have chosen is three days. After sex, I will not initiate again for three days. Guess what? This has given her enough room to begin initiating before the three days has happened. 

*#3 Don't ask for sex during her period!* Her period does not bother me, but she can not help but to just feel uncomfortable. She also feels this is a time that would help her to also not have any anxiety over knowing that I was going to want to have sex with her, which was causing her a lot of resentment towards me. So this time of the month has now been declared off limits for sex. She can now be free of any anxiety towards me.

*#4 For the love of god, just let sex be natural!* I am perhaps guilty of wanting to spice things up too much with toys, lubes or whatever. Meanwhile my wife had longed to just feel how her body responds under very natural love making scenarios. She enjoys the little extra friction that forgoing lube provides for her (I was arbitrarily applying lube and taking this enjoyment away for her). I would also grab a vibrator at the first sign she was having trouble instead of working to connect better with her. _In reality I have come to understand that novelties were my response to being inadequate for her. _The impact was that it was making her feel inadequate for me. So we have stopped using toys or lubes and just let things be natural. She really enjoys me working harder and paying more attention to her. 

*#5 If I really need her and she is not in the mood, then just enjoy it!* She enjoys pleasing me, but at the same time if she is not in the mood she does not want me to get disappointed because she will not be able to get there with me. This can be a difficult thing to do for me because I get the most enjoyment of feeling her aroused, but at the same time I should not reject her simple desire to please me when I am extremely aroused. 

*#6 If I am not going to be able to get in the mood, but she is, then she should just enjoy it!* My wife has been learning to do the same and feel more entitled to it. Moments like this also help me understand how extremely enjoyable it is to please your partner even though you are not feeling it yourself for whatever reason (too much food, stress, or whatever). Instead of trying to force myself to climax, I simply let her know up front that it may not happen for me and I tell her she can have whatever she wants and that I will enjoy giving it to her. If it is not going to happen and I try to force myself, then this makes her feel extremely disconnected from me and is emotionally painful for her to experience. So it is better for me to be honest up front, be myself, and allow her to really enjoy herself!

*Those are the six things that I have discovered that make a dramatic difference for my wife to be able to enjoy intimacy in our marriage. * It took me a very long time to recognize these things and understand the dynamics associated with them. 

Sincerely, 
Badsanta


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

badsanta said:


> *#6 If I am not going to be able to get in the mood, but she is, then she should just enjoy it!* My wife has been learning to do the same and feel more entitled to it. Moments like this also help me understand how extremely enjoyable it is to please your partner even though you are not feeling it yourself for whatever reason (too much food, stress, or whatever). Instead of trying to force myself to climax, I simply let her know up front that it may not happen for me and I tell her she can have whatever she wants and that I will enjoy giving it to her. If it is not going to happen and I try to force myself, then this makes her feel extremely disconnected from me and is emotionally painful for her to experience. So it is better for me to be honest up front, be myself, and allow her to really enjoy herself!


This has been a huge turning point for us too! Getting pleasure from one sided sexual encounters is very liberating. It is not necessarily a sexual pleasure but still intimately satisfying seeing your partner climax and have fun. This has meant that we have far more opportunities to bond and be close rather than just waiting for us both to be in the mood. 

I think changing our habits and attitudes are very difficult though and it takes time. We are often socialised to think that sex should look and be a certain way and become threatened if someone attempts to change the 'rules'. I think your wife is doing really well if she is embracing change and you are a good husband by looking at your situation from a different point of view.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

I can understand your wife's feelings on #3! 


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

BadSanta: As usual, very insightful advice. I can easily see your suggestions helping a couple to become more comfortable with their ongoing interactions. As you say, if the HD can remove the pressure on the LD, that makes the system function much better for both of them.

Must say I am surprised that having given up sex entirely gets me a 100% score on items 1 - 3. Of course, it makes 4 - 6 entirely unreachable but likely we were never going to get there anyway. She doesn't enjoy anything about sex with me which makes 4 and 6 impossible, and I am guessing that achieving 5 requires that some of the sessions not be one sided so that was always going to be unavailable as well. So at least we have gotten halfway up the list from where we were.

Or to put it differently, if a couple is not going to be able to overcome their feelings of inadequacy by getting to a place where they both feel able to satisfy their partner, then they might as well concede their inadequacy and chuck the whole thing. Much easier to minimize the pain of inadequacy regarding something you don't do at all then to constantly be reminded of one's inadequacy by trying and failing to satisfy one's partner.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

badsanta said:


> It took me a very long time to recognize these things and understand the dynamics associated with them.


Good for you. How long did it take? 

After menopause zapped her drive, previously matching mine, it took us about 2.5 years to get our mojo back.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

MrsAldi said:


> I can understand your wife's feelings on #3!
> 
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


I am probably guilty of asking for too much sex. Her time of the month is a time she just feels uncomfortable with herself. Sex is not impossible, just more difficult for her. 

Aside from that, I think it is healthy to take a break from the possibility of sex for a week once a month. This helps us focus on other things.

Personally her period does not bother me one bit, but for her this come across as if I am likely not acknowledging her level of discomfort (cramps and all that other stuff).

So #3 is about giving her some space for her to not have to feel anxious. An example might be that she knows I am in the mood, but she fears I will get disappointed for her to tell me no. She told me she once worried about that the whole time she was grocery shopping one day, that she really needed to come home, lay down, and for me to NOT pressure her for sex. 

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

CharlieParker said:


> Good for you. How long did it take?
> 
> After menopause zapped her drive, previously matching mine, it took us about 2.5 years to get our mojo back.


I would not say we officially have our mojo back from when we were young, but I have successfully addressed many of the issues that were causing anxiety. 
_
It is still a work in progress._

In all honesty, it almost feels like we are starting all over again and learning each other for the first time. Up until now I have never listened enough to start acknowledging things that she likes. So it is as if I now find myself with a list of things she says she likes, and I am still learning how to really put them into effect for her. 

But in all honesty I would say I have now put a great deal of focus into resolving _volatility_ in our intimacy for about five years.

It also helps that the kids are becoming much more independent in the house. And there are other issues in life that seem to becoming resolved as well. 

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> BadSanta: As usual, very insightful advice. I can easily see your suggestions helping a couple to become more comfortable with their ongoing interactions. *As you say, if the HD can remove the pressure on the LD, that makes the system function much better for both of them.*


It is NOT really about HD/LD. It is about acknowledging some poor behaviors on my behalf that were drastically taking away from my wife being able to enjoy that area of our marriage. 
@Holdingontoit I see some very bad behaviors on your behalf because you have admitted to having anger and resentment towards you wife for her not doing anything about resolving er issues. In my opinion you have to acknowledge those to her AND try to let go of those feelings. I could be wrong. 

Badsanta


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## JamesTKirk (Sep 8, 2015)

I can't agree with you more BadSanta. As always, another very well written post.

A couple of things I'll add based on my experience.

#2. Spot on. "focus more on letting her know how much she satisfies me!" Let her observe you as very happy, very satisfied, and very appreciative. Let go of the pursuit for a bit. Every 3-4 seems to be her most comfortable frequency. (It can go 2-5 days, as sometime it'll be a Fri and Sun, next maybe a Thurs and Sun.) Really twice a week.
I could even go longer, but I find our sex life is better and more natural if we keep up a routine of no less than every 5 days (periods excluded.) Past that the sex seems to be more work for the both of us.
Not long ago I pushed it. I tried every two days for 8 days in a row. On the 4th time (8th day) she broke. "Every other day, and I though you'd be happy with that and I'd have a break tonight, but you want it again."
Don't push it. Find her happy frequency.
I find that if I give her 3-5 days, she's looking forward to it again. She's not horny, has no desire, but remembers how enjoyable and satisfying it was last time and is looking forward to that experience. Too soon is too soon.

#3. Yes. She feels icky during the period. Nothing is going to turn her on. It's totally obligatory sex at that point. The frustration is that period seem to last a full 7 days form start to finish and sometimes we don't have sex for up to 4 days before. I try to track her periods now and try to have sex as close to before the cramps start as possible. Oral is really rare during her period and I don't ask. Rarely she'll offer and it all depends why.

Other things that worked for me:
A. Are you HD and think you need it daily? Give up the porn and masturbation. You're probably addicted. Don't know what that means? Look it up.
I used to think that supplementing with this between sex would "tide me over." It does not. It actually makes everything worse. Give up both and you'll find your sexual desire will start to normalize or match your 3-4 day frequency quite nicely. Also, your orgasms and sexual satisfaction will improve. You'll go HD to normal D. You won't obsess about sex anymore. It becomes something you just do with your wife every few days. Also focus all of that effort from porn and masturbation into your relationship with your wife. Your relationship will improve and so will your sex life.

B. A nice talk. Find a time to have a positive discussion (don't do this when you're fighting.) Start with letting her know that you're not trying to fight with her, just want to talk about your relationship. Bring up sex and how to improve your sex life. Ask her questions and listen to her. She may make excuses. Respond to those excuses with questions on how to overcome them.
What you want to do is ask her how often she'd like to have sex. Ask her what makes her want to have sex with you. Really get her to come up with solutions that improve your sex life. Ask her to tell you how to get to sex twice a week (don't expect more.) I learned a few things and applied them and it worked.
This process also let her know my intentions to have more regular sex to which she started responding to.
Some couples just schedule date. Every Wed and Sunday, for example. Mine wife was strongly against that.

C. No schedule, but setting "Sex dates" works. Long story short, spontaneously trying to get her turned on and having sex became difficult. It's not on her mind and when I try to start she seems surprised because sex isn't on her mind and she has other plans for the evening.
In the morning or earlier in the day I'll either say to her that I'd like to give her a massage, or have a drink with her later on. Both are well known as invitations to have sex later on. She responds positively and seemingly enthusiastically about it. The rest of the day she has sex planned for later on, so that evening she's ready and in the mood. By the time I have the kid to bed, she might be wearing something sexy or already drinking beer/wine/margarita.

D. I asked my wife once what turns her on. She said "Just being happy." So if she's unhappy, she's not up for sex. When she's in a great mood, I flirt with her and it works out. I can't control when good and bad days will so I don't rely on this, but it's a good tip.

E. Alcohol. As long as I've known her she's much more relaxed and enjoys sex more after at least 1 drink. She's otherwise very cerebral and sometimes a bit uptight. The exception is a long massage and even she prefers a drink. That's just her.
The challenge is that when she's training to run a marathon, she'll get up early and go running almost daily. It's hard to get her to drink the night before and she's often really tired. So that's where massages come in instead of alcohol.

F. Get a hot tub. We got one for free and had it a while. We had sex a lot because we were always in it, having a drink. It's intimate.

Together for 20 years with a good sex life (1-3 times a week) about 3 years ago her libido dropped to almost 0. If I was lucky she'd be in the mood during ovulation, otherwise she could probably go months without ever mentioning sex. This became problematic for me. I took it as rejection, lack of being wanted, questioned how she felt about me, the whole 9 yards. She never said no for me, but I found it difficult to have sex with her more than twice a month. Even then it sometimes felt awkward.

A year ago we had those conversations I mentioned. Really trying to understand each other helped a lot.
The real key was getting her to tell me what worked best for her. She dodged the questions with a lot of "I don't know" but when I held her to it, I got her to come up with something that worked for her, then did my best to work with that information.
She also knows that I want it a couple of times a week, so no matter what she's desiring, she expects me to want it and is ready for it. Either way I know she really enjoys it, so It's never "duty" sex.

With a very very low - D wife, we have a very happy sex life of about twice a week.
Sex is also better. I think having it regularly really helps. Usually after sex and multiple intense orgasm she goes on and on about how much she needed that and how she wants to do it again soon. Of course the next day she seems to forget about the "soon" part because the libido isn't there. A few days later I remind her and she looks forward to it.

So we found our thing. I hope some of my tips help.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

badsanta said:


> I would not say we officially have our mojo back from when we were young, but I have successfully addressed many of the issues that were causing anxiety.
> _
> It is still a work in progress._


Mojo was a lazy choice of words. It took actually closer to 3 years to get to a point where getting into the bedroom wasn't stressful contentious work, we are back to just doing it. We were always very compatible before the estrogen left the building. 

It took a while to figure out good intimacy didn't require PiV and 2 orgasms. While we said as much, it took time for the actions to follow the words.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

CharlieParker said:


> Mojo was a lazy choice of words. It took actually closer to 3 years to get to a point where getting into the bedroom wasn't stressful contentious work, we are back to just doing it. We were always very compatible before the estrogen left the building.
> 
> *It took a while to figure out good intimacy didn't require PiV and 2 orgasms. While we said as much, it took time for the actions to follow the words.*


*
*

Wow. Yes this is exactly my experience. Good for you.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

There's likely no such thing as LD.

The Easter Bunny vehemently disagrees with your assessment.

#1 - indifference trumps desire
#2 - plenty of break as per #1
#3 - menopause since 2012, easy one
#4 - none is natural too...
#5 - since she's never in the mood, #1
#6 - this has happened more as of late


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

john117 said:


> There's likely no such thing as LD.
> 
> The Easter Bunny vehemently disagrees with your assessment.
> 
> ...


...wait a minute *#6* she is in the mood when you are not and she just enjoys herself? Yet you label her as LD! 

OK @john117 can you explain, and avoid using the Easter Bunny and/or reptilian brain functions?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Translation of #6 to English: she makes a half a$$ effort to initiate once in 2-3 months while refusing to consider any other frequency or non sexual forms of intimacy.

Play along and you play right into her game.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

john117 said:


> There's likely no such thing as LD.
> 
> The Easter Bunny vehemently disagrees with your assessment.
> 
> ...





john117 said:


> Translation of #6 to English:* she makes a half a$$ effort to initiate* once in 2-3 months while refusing to consider any other frequency or non sexual forms of intimacy.
> 
> Play along and you play right into her game.


OK, then we are back to #1.
*
#1 Differentiation trumps indifference! *

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differentiation_(sociology)

Badsanta


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

It seems like a lot of work for a moderate return. I do not doubt that this can help or work for some people. It also seems like the HD has to suppress themselves constantly and always adapt to the LDs limitations, while using ruses and cajoling to create a mood that may lead to sex. Obviously, it's important enough to you to do this, and you may enjoy the challenge sufficiently to persist. I wouldn't be able to do this, nor would I want to. I want a more natural, more balanced sex life for myself without so much preliminary strategizing and effort - and that was part of the reason I divorced my ex and am extremely happy in my present relationship.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> It also seems like the HD has to suppress themselves constantly and always adapt to the LDs limitations.


Quite the contrary in HD/LD!

The HD is completely free of having to suppress anything, because all the resulting failure can easily be blamed on the LD. In most cases the LD feels inadequate and is more than willing to except all the blame. 

Then once the LD realizes that he/she is not LD anymore, it is the HD partner that will run and hide as the realization of where the failure was coming from starts to show its true self!

So in HD/LD relationships it is actually the LD suppressing themselves as the result of the HD's overzealous ability to blame everything on those around him/her. 

Regards,
Badsanta


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

badsanta said:


> OK, then we are back to #1.
> *
> #1 Differentiation trumps indifference! *
> 
> ...


Mutual indifference, to be precise. The 180 and such assume a level of interest, while true indifference is a lot harder to attain.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Differentiation works if the other person is interested in the differences, by the way. But for some people it is the core concept that bothers them, not how it is differentiated from others.

In my line of work, if the customer is interested in some cheap piece of krap, no amount of differentiation will make them choose my stuff unless it caters to his one wish, the bottom line. 

Differentiation helps make the sale when the customer is somehow interested. If there's no interest you could give it away for free and still no takers.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

badsanta said:


> Quite the contrary in HD/LD!
> 
> The HD is completely free of having to suppress anything, because all the resulting failure can easily be blamed on the LD. In most cases the LD feels inadequate and is more than willing to except all the blame.
> 
> ...


That's an interesting perspective. However, I don't recall you posting anywhere that you have reached the point where you need to run and hide. Honestly, I don't see it ever happening.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

john117 said:


> Mutual indifference, to be precise. The 180 and such assume a level of interest, while true indifference is a lot harder to attain.


If you were truly indifferent to each other and also planning your exit, then the idea of you reading advice on how to help improve HD/LD relationships seems a bit _a w k w a r d_ now doesn't it?

You will quickly dismiss this as seeing my solutions as things that are simply/jokingly not applicable in your marriage as a way to continue justifying your exit. But for some reason you still feel the need to double check that you did not miss anything. 

So this once every two or three months, do you still enjoy it?

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> That's an interesting perspective. However, I don't recall you posting anywhere that you have reached the point where you need to run and hide. Honestly, I don't see it ever happening.


Dude, TAM is my hideout! sssshhhhhhh!


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## onedge (Nov 27, 2013)

JamesTKirk said:


> C. No schedule, but setting "Sex dates" works. Long story short, spontaneously trying to get her turned on and having sex became difficult. It's not on her mind and when I try to start she seems surprised because sex isn't on her mind and she has other plans for the evening. In the morning or earlier in the day I'll either say to her that I'd like to give her a massage, or have a drink with her later on. Both are well known as invitations to have sex later on. She responds positively and seemingly enthusiastically about it. The rest of the day she has sex planned for later on, so that evening she's ready and in the mood. By the time I have the kid to bed, she might be wearing something sexy or already drinking beer/wine/margarita.
> 
> D. I asked my wife once what turns her on. She said "Just being happy." So if she's unhappy, she's not up for sex. When she's in a great mood, I flirt with her and it works out. I can't control when good and bad days will so I don't rely on this, but it's a good tip.
> 
> ...


I really like these. When sex is infrequent it is awkward. Even though I am the HD one, I still have to get my head in the game to release any inhibitions or I am on edge waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Bad Santa...I agree with much of what you said. Kudos for being able to find a middle ground you both can live with. I especially agree with being natural. An O comes much more easily with a little more foreplay and less "tools." The tools only focus on a certain area instead of arousing the whole body which I think many women want. I think many men (women too) don't understand the foreplay is the time you spend on non sex areas. Hence before you play. 

Thank you both for good advice.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

badsanta said:


> If you were truly indifferent to each other and also planning your exit, then the idea of you reading advice on how to help improve HD/LD relationships seems a bit _a w k w a r d_ now doesn't it?
> 
> You will quickly dismiss this as seeing my solutions as things that are simply/jokingly not applicable in your marriage as a way to continue justifying your exit. But for some reason you still feel the need to double check that you did not miss anything.
> 
> ...


Aha. A good set of points.

TAM to me is like Angry Birds, a good way to pass time. Except you meet some interesting people in the process and learn about life after exit. Not awkward at all.

I do pick up tips here and there, so that aspect isn't completely useless. Have I missed anything? At one point I thought I did. Ran my numbers once again, got more input... I mean, it took me a full year on TAM to realize it's not fixable, not with what I have to work with at least.

How does it feel? I wouldn't know. I gave up the ghost a while ago, no point in dragging a dead horse and all that. The last few times there was a very contrived and unpleasant feeling, like it was all w.t.f I'm doing here type of feeling. That was all she wrote.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

badsanta said:


> *There is likely no such thing as LD!*


agree




badsanta said:


> *#1 Don't get angry at her when we do not have sex!*


agree



badsanta said:


> *#2 Give her a break after we have had sex!*


disagree. 

do what you want. 

why would you want to spend your life constantly assessing her mood and if it's OK to do what you really want? if she doesn't want to, she will surely reject you.

this just appears to be a backdoor way of avoiding rejection




badsanta said:


> *#3 Don't ask for sex during her period!*


so now you need to monitor her mood and her cycle too. 

is she paying any attention to your mood and what your desires are on any particular day, or is it all on you to figure her out?

pretty obvious who works for who here



badsanta said:


> *#4 For the love of god, just let sex be natural!*


agree, but this is not consistent with the other things on your list.

if it was natural you would not be constantly monitoring and scheming, you would just be going for it when you wanted to



badsanta said:


> *#5 If I really need her and she is not in the mood, then just enjoy it!*


agree. forget about whether she enjoys it. your outsized focus on this is just another example of the lopsided power dynamic



badsanta said:


> *#6 If I am not going to be able to get in the mood, but she is, then she should just enjoy it!*


how does this even work? you're having sex and you're not in the mood?

maybe you're too focused on her and if you focused on what you want to do more you would be more in the mood.



badsanta said:


> *Those are the six things that I have discovered that make a dramatic difference for my wife to be able to enjoy intimacy in our marriage. * It took me a very long time to recognize these things and understand the dynamics associated with them.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Badsanta


I think it's cool you are having some success with this but it seems like a very one sided dynamic overall

I can't imagine that you could feel satisfied by this long term.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

badsanta said:


> *#6 If I am not going to be able to get in the mood, but she is, then she should just enjoy it!*





Anon1111 said:


> *how does this even work? you're having sex and you're not in the mood?*
> 
> maybe you're too focused on her and if you focused on what you want to do more you would be more in the mood.


Regarding #6 and not being able to get in the mood, I could probably define that better by saying I am actually very in the mood, but may have difficulty achieving orgasm. So in this case I "man up" and tell her exactly that so that she knows not to waste her efforts on me and for her to be emboldened to ask/do whatever SHE wants. So when this happens it is kinda like being at a restaurant that is changing over from breakfast to lunch. Yes, you could still order from the breakfast menu, but you will get a much better experience to just go ahead and order lunch. So for her this is like wanting to share an omelet with hash browns, but instead knowing she is better off spoiling herself by ordering the dungeness crab with an expensive glass of wine while we enjoy just sitting together and I enjoy a few bites here and there. 

Generally speaking #6 is so enjoyable for me to see her so pleased, that by the time it is over I'm actually very in the mood. BUT I do enjoy her leaving me in this state and teasing me about it! Then later in the day or the next day when I can't take it anymore she will surprise me by just letting me be selfish and surprising me with something I had no idea she would be willing to do for me.

So while it is great to "share" an experience. It can also be very nice to take turns pleasing each other and really surprise each other with our efforts to do things that would not really be possible if it were a shared experience. This is something new, particularly for her to start asking for things that she might really enjoy if I am more in the mood just to please her. 

Regards,
Badsanta


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

LOL, #6 as explained may only happen to us older folks. 20 years ago it would have perhaps come up during or after round 4, which of course NEVER happened after marriage. Nowadays it has come up a few times on the very RARE round 3 or 2. I'd agree, it is very pleasant giving her a good time while knowing it won't happen for you. In another 5 or 10 years I'm sure it'll come up on round one from time to time.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

anonmd said:


> LOL, #6 as explained may only happen to us older folks. 20 years ago it would have perhaps come up during or after round 4, which of course NEVER happened after marriage. Nowadays it has come up a few times on the very RARE round 3 or 2. I'd agree, it is very pleasant giving her a good time while knowing it won't happen for you. In another 5 or 10 years I'm sure it'll come up on round one from time to time.


My wife likes it when I go over the edge _effortlessly_. Yes, I could go for round 3 in the same day if I had to, but my wife absolutely does not like the jackhammer-style lovemaking that it takes for that to happen, as essentially I am forcing myself to orgasm. In my opinion 99% of porn videos demonstrate the man forcing an orgasm. Rarely do you see the ones where the man makes love and effortlessly explodes. 

So @anonmd unless you are going to effortlessly explode after say about 15 minutes of slow but intense grinding, perhaps you might want to man up and wait to see what happens later in the day or the next morning. You'll feel like a teenager loosing your virginity again! - LOL! 

Badsanta


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Re-read for more understanding


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

anonmd said:


> Re-read for more understanding


As always us older folks are a little slow!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

* An update to this thread...*

This holiday weekend we have been intimate with each other four times. Two instances were all about me, and the other two were all about her. Previously this would have definitely NOT been able to happen. 1st, my wife would be very angry at me if she would be ready to go and I for whatever reason would not be (could but I would have to force it). The other two times when I was ready but she was not, I would have rejected those opportunities as her just giving me pity sex. 

In reality, the frequency of our drives is not exactly mismatched, but at the moment one of us will be ready to go when the other is not. Instead of getting frustrated and rejecting each other, we have been taking that opportunity to explore each other one-at-a-time and ask for exactly what we want, and holy cow!!!!

Previously I would have gotten angry and resentful at her for rejecting me and/or perhaps offering me what I felt to be pity sex. She would have been too emotionally disconnected to let me know the moments when she was actually in the mood (if it even happened), and it would have been an extremely toxic holiday weekend together.

Regards,
Badsanta


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I've very much enjoyed reading this thread. 

I know for me I really appreciate knowing that if I decide I really am tired or not up for it and hb wants sex he will happily let me sleep without any pouting. I see that as a sign of strength and self control, which is attractive. 

Said attractiveness motivates me to think about sex with him. 

We've also come to the point where sex will often be about one or the other. Sometimes both of us will get there but other times just one. 

And if an O isn't going to happen that must be communicated and respected. It certainly happens with me and hb is at the age where it happens to him too. 

If not today then another day.....less pressure for everyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

An update to this thread...

Things have continued to improve particularly in regards to how we now initiate intimacy as a couple. Previously it had been a volatile experience for me that was often filled with her rejecting me and causing both of us anxiety. Although I could keep a playful attitude, I knew something needed to happen for it to become a more natural and playful process. 

My wife and I were talking the other day and I think the biggest thing to happen is for me to back off from trying too hard to get her to enjoy herself. Now I am giving her enough space intimately for her to enjoy things on her own terms and begin communicating those things to me, initiating sex has started to become a playful and more natural process. 

Previously if I was feeling distant from my wife, I would feel as if we needed to have sex and _make sure she enjoyed it_ to in order feel more "connected" with her. Now I simply share my arousal and desire with her in a way that is playful with no expectations other than wanting to make sure she feels loved. Instead of her having to be confrontational and repeatedly reject the idea that I would likely try and to force her try to enjoy herself, she can now be playful in return knowing that i will not get my feelings hurt if she is not really aroused or in the mood. 

In reality things usually start out with her focusing her attention on me and she sometimes indicates that she is not aroused and for me not to try or worry about her, she will just want me to enjoy myself. Then as things progress, out of nowhere she will begin to respond. At that point, I then focus on her or mutual pleasure and just allow whatever happens to happen. Occasionally she may request for me to do something in particular, and I am learning how to _enjoy_ her asking for something as opposed to just arbitrarily trying something different before she is ready. 

As for introducing variety into the bedroom, I have that found if I focus on things that improve my pleasure without any elements that are providing stimulation to her that she may or may not be ready for, that I can start asking for a lot more things. 

Badsanta


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

Question, does your wife like or dislike certain toys? 
You spoke of #4 letting sex be natural. 
She enjoyed you working harder & paying more attention. 
I find the toys sometimes do the work for Mr A when maybe he should be putting in the effort. 
I've tried giving him a guide so to speak but in his mind it's hard work. 


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

MrsAldi said:


> Question, does your wife like or dislike certain toys?
> You spoke of #4 letting sex be natural.
> She enjoyed you working harder & paying more attention.
> I find the toys sometimes do the work for Mr A when maybe he should be putting in the effort.
> ...



Generally speaking she does not really like toys, especially if I try to get them out before she feels like she might even want to try one. 

Occasionally she might ask me to use one. 

I also encourage her to try them on her own, but she admits she likes it much better when I do all the work. And IF a toy is going to be used, it is ONLY for orgasms number three and above. She likes the first one or two to be simple and natural.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Another update:

Now that I feel I have discovered the basic things my wife needs from me stated in my original post, our communication and intimacy has continued to improve. I am actually finding all the old reasons that I would have thought were the primary reasons my wife might need to reject me for sex to NOT BE TRUE.

*SHE IS TIRED! Nope! *We have now had some of the most incredible and mind blowing sex that leaves us covered in sweat at around 2am after she has had a long day and has had legitimate reasons to be tired. 

*SHE IS STRESSED! Nope!* We have had days where she has been under a lot of stress, but now she can turn to me to help calm herself down with a clear understanding that we will respect each other. Then the moment arises and sex is great.

*SHE FEELS YUCKY! Nope!* Generally if my wife has not had a shower within the past hour, she would claim she feels yucky (from working outside, driving around in the heat, whatever) and would often use that as an excuse to push me away. Now, not so much anymore. She will just raise her eyebrows and say, "well I'm all yucky from riding bikes with the kids" and smile to see if it scares me away as she jumps on top of me. It seems like before this was just a lame excuse.

So for those wives out there that come up with generic excuses to get out of sex, I would argue that this is very counterproductive in the long run. Your husband will listen to you and back off when these conditions reoccur. In reality it is likely pushing him away when you would actually enjoy him being closer and more playful. 

Badsanta


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Santa, my man, those excuses are of the "the dog ate my homework" variety to a self respecting LD 

To this day my best was that she was stressed out because of a moth and mice infestation in our house. That turned out to be a single moth hole in a garment and a 2 inch field mouse which I drove a mile away and released.

Somehow, LD's think we are buying those excuses. Like my fellow PhD coworker who had a 40℅ chance of calling sick if the boss was traveling. HR noticed and he was promptly canned.

They know, you know, and they know you know. 

I'm currently facing a mass murderer poltergeist roaming around the McMansion. Three times we've spotted and cleaned red stains from the carpet. In the same path. I can't wait to have the poltergeist as an excuse.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

badsanta said:


> *#5 If I really need her and she is not in the mood, then just enjoy it!* She enjoys pleasing me, but at the same time if she is not in the mood she does not want me to get disappointed because she will not be able to get there with me. This can be a difficult thing to do for me because I get the most enjoyment of feeling her aroused, but at the same time I should not reject her simple desire to please me when I am extremely aroused.


I want to talk a moment about the dynamics of #5. Previously in my marriage one of my biggest complaints to my wife was that she would simply not even try to get herself in the mood if at first she did not feel into the moment. She would just tell me that she was NOT in the mood, push me away, and insist that the idea of us having sex was not going to happen. Sometimes in the past when this happened she would offer to just take care of me, but I would often decline and insist that it would be better to revisit the topic when she is more open to enjoying the moment together. This in turn resulted in a pattern of behavior on my part where I would be the one that would try too hard to get her in the mood, and continued attempts at this were not only counterproductive, but it kept adding to the list of things that made her feel inadequate. 

So now for the first time in our sexual history ever since I can remember, I felt what it was to have an intimate moment that was definitely not an ideal moment for her and experience her give an honest effort to get herself in the mood for us to share the moment. Even though it did not happen for her and she eventually communicated to me during the middle of things that she was just not feeling it, I found it to be a meaningful experience to feel her trying. She also had enough confidence in me to know that once she told me that it was not going to happen that I would not get disappointed and that she could still enjoy focussing her efforts to please me, and that ended up being great. 

I imagine many husbands would get their egos hurt by feeling like, well if I could not please my wife, well then is it because she does not love me or something. That would be how I would feel in the past and then I would begin trying every trick in the book to try and get her to enjoy it and force an orgasm to happen for her, to which I often actually could, but I don't think it was an enjoyable experience for her. 

*So it has taken a lot of development on my behalf to understand that if it is not the right moment and she TRIES, that it is still OK, I'll back off my efforts of trying to please her and we can still really enjoy the moment together and really feel close. *

The most awesome moment was that the next day we were talking and she apologized for having too many stressful thoughts in her mind about one of her work projects. She thanked me for being extremely supportive of her needs outside the bedroom and now that she was not as stressed out anymore that she was looking forwards to giving me a night to enjoy very soon (meaning she would be able to completely let herself go with me).

So I think it is very important for a partner to feel confident enough to admit that they can not get themselves into the moment and know that the relationship is loving enough that both of you can shift your focus and still enjoy the moment in other ways, even if that means just one partner pleasing the other. While that sounds simple, guys have to understand that the proverbial delicate male ego results in many wives simply faking an orgasm to get it over with. Many wives would likely feel much more loved if they could be honest when they are not into the moment AND still feel close enough to their husbands for both just to enjoy pleasing the one of you that is actually aroused. 

Sincerely, 
Badsanta


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

Excellent thread from OP and others. I hope to post helpful tips on engaging an LD spouse in the near future also. Not today.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

badsanta said:


> *SHE IS TIRED! Nope! *We have now had some of the most incredible and mind blowing sex that leaves us covered in sweat at around 2am after she has had a long day and has had legitimate reasons to be tired.
> 
> *SHE IS STRESSED! Nope!* We have had days where she has been under a lot of stress, but now she can turn to me to help calm herself down with a clear understanding that we will respect each other. Then the moment arises and sex is great.


My wife just used these two excuses as to why she did not want any intimacy. While I used to be respectful of these excuses I called bullshît on them. I managed to peel back the layers of fake excuses to get down to brass tax: she was upset with me (and in my opinion probably wanted to punish me by not even trying to be intimate). 

So we had a long discussion regarding the "event" that had her so upset with me. After that was aired out, then things reconciled and finally got back on track. We started hugging, and one thing led to another. 

*So I am reaffirming that stress and fatigue are fake excuses!* It may be true there is a legitimate reason interfering with intimacy, but if your wife says she is tired but at the same time seems agitated, start using some common sense and call bullshît so that you can discuss what is really causing a problem. Same goes for saying I'm "stressed out" right after claiming to be "tired" (ordinary people do NOT experience those two sensations simultaneously)! 

Be careful about calling out these excuses once you suspect they are fake that you do it in a calm and level headed way, and also be prepared for an argument because there is an issue that will likely need to be discussed and forgiven. 

Badsanta


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Excuses do not have to be rational. 

Stress does cause physical exhaustion perception wise... http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/stress-management/in-depth/stress-symptoms/art-20050987


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

john117 said:


> Excuses do not have to be rational.


All excuses that divert attention away from solving real issues are very problematic. Sex aside, I think our instincts to get upset when a loved one rejects us are NOT necessarily about getting upset because we don't get sex. But I am now starting to think we get more upset because instinctually we know we are being lied to. 

So in the following scenario a wife is upset at you for reason A) but gives you excuses B) C) D) E) & F) as to why she feels distant. She then gets upset at you for getting frustrated at her because you ONLY want sex. Meanwhile she is guilty of not taking the time to confront problem A) with you. 

In reality if my wife said, I am upset over issue A) and that makes me not want to be close to you right now. I could actually deal with that and NOT get upset. At that point the issue of having sex or not is no longer an important issue, but taking a moment to discuss our feeling to one another IS important. 

What is my story behind this one? Parenting issues and our teenage kids throwing me under the bus!

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

I'm going to add another point to the things I am learning here:

*#7 Initiating sex must be done with the correct attitude!* I have read a lot of things that indicate that women do not like to be asked for sex, and while sometimes it is unavoidable when scheduling conflicts arise and a couple has to carve out some time, a husband should avoid asking AND have the correct attitude towards "initiating" sex. The correct attitude to initiate sex involves being both very assertive AND respectful to your wife simultaneously. 

To most men including myself, this type of attitude seems to create somewhat of a paradox. How can one be assertive and respectful simultaneously?

A) You make your desire for your wife known in such a way that she is unable to question it or reject it. This can NOT include a desire to want your wife to want you, as those feelings belong to her and you have no control over those. This is specifically your desire for her, and that has to be communicated in a way that is crystal clear and unquestionable. 

B) You can also be respectful by patiently allowing her to respond to your desire on her own terms. Perhaps she will want to hug for a while, it is possible she needs to unload some emotional drama via conversation, or perhaps it is also a good moment for her and things will just happen. The thing is regardless of how she responds if you can keep a positive/patient attitude as well as sustain a high level of arousal while she reacts in whatever way she wants, she will be much more likely to become receptive compared to trying to initiate sex out of asking from neediness or a lack of patience with her if she does not respond in a positive way right away. 

C) Do NOT allow her to reject your desire for her, and you better make sure there is enough of it there that it can withstand an emotional firestorm from her if she wants to have one. If my wife tells me she does NOT want sex, I'll smile at her and tell her that, "it will be fine, I can still work with that!" Then she will look at me appalled and wanting to get angry, but unable to resist an inevitable smile and giggle that it creates when I am overconfident about my desire for her!

Badsanta


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## Begin again (Jul 4, 2016)

badsanta said:


> I want to talk a moment about the dynamics of #5. Previously in my marriage one of my biggest complaints to my wife was that she would simply not even try to get herself in the mood if at first she did not feel into the moment. She would just tell me that she was NOT in the mood, push me away, and insist that the idea of us having sex was not going to happen. Sometimes in the past when this happened she would offer to just take care of me, but I would often decline and insist that it would be better to revisit the topic when she is more open to enjoying the moment together. This in turn resulted in a pattern of behavior on my part where I would be the one that would try too hard to get her in the mood, and continued attempts at this were not only counterproductive, but it kept adding to the list of things that made her feel inadequate.
> 
> So now for the first time in our sexual history ever since I can remember, I felt what it was to have an intimate moment that was definitely not an ideal moment for her and experience her give an honest effort to get herself in the mood for us to share the moment. Even though it did not happen for her and she eventually communicated to me during the middle of things that she was just not feeling it, I found it to be a meaningful experience to feel her trying. She also had enough confidence in me to know that once she told me that it was not going to happen that I would not get disappointed and that she could still enjoy focussing her efforts to please me, and that ended up being great.
> 
> ...


First, I let me applaud you and even give you a "yes, yes!"  for the improvements and insights you've shared.

What I'm wondering about is something I've heard and have been thinking about a lot lately, and that is that foreplay begins immediately after the last orgasm.

Now, foreplay to me is not necessarily overtly sexual. It is teasing, it is connecting, it is how you kiss good morning and how you might text her mid day for absolutely no reason except to say, "hi. Thinking about you..." 

Do you do this kind of ongoing foreplay with your wife? Very personal question, I know, but I think this is something that definitely keeps my drive up, so thought I could offer an idea for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Begin again said:


> Now, foreplay to me is not necessarily overtly sexual. It is teasing, it is connecting, it is how you kiss good morning and how you might text her mid day for absolutely no reason except to say, "hi. Thinking about you..."
> 
> Do you do this kind of ongoing foreplay with your wife? Very personal question, I know, but I think this is something that definitely keeps my drive up, so thought I could offer an idea for you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


To me the word "foreplay" invokes the idea of actions that are specifically purposed for enhancing sexual arousal. If anything my wife prefers any activities or gestures that are overtly sexual to be downplayed if not right out avoided during daily life in favor of dedicating time to being a team to get things accomplished. 

She does like to be reminded that I "care" about her during the day, but I would not go so far as to say that qualifies as sexual foreplay. Yes it improves her emotional closeness and sexual receptivity once the moment occurs, because she needs to feel me put more emphasis on "who" she is as a person compared to "what" she can offer me as a sexual object. So if I text her that I'm "thinking of you" she will likely text me back playfully that she is not responsible if I got myself all aroused thinking of her. BUT if I text her, "is you back feeling better" she will respond to that knowing I care about her.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

badsanta said:


> All excuses that divert attention away from solving real issues are very problematic. Sex aside, I think our instincts to get upset when a loved one rejects us are NOT necessarily about getting upset because we don't get sex. But I am now starting to think we get more upset because instinctually we know we are being lied to.
> 
> So in the following scenario a wife is upset at you for reason A) but gives you excuses B) C) D) E) & F) as to why she feels distant. She then gets upset at you for getting frustrated at her because you ONLY want sex. Meanwhile she is guilty of not taking the time to confront problem A) with you.
> 
> ...


Thankfully my wife at least used to give very implausible excuses, making it not worth to even consider them...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

john117 said:


> Thankfully my wife at least used to give very implausible excuses, making it not worth to even consider them...


Just for you @john117

*Badsanta's PUA Move #89,345 Please help me fix the jacuzzi!*

For very complicated reasons your wife can not understand, she needs to get in the jacuzzi and place her hands over the jets as you ask her to in order to diagnose a leak that is about to cause a serious termite problem. You can get in there with her, and turn it into a game of twister (left toe now over the right jet!). Claim that soap suds are needed as a tracer as you need to see if soap bubbles come out in this leak. 

I'll leave it up to you @john117 if you want to use that to start having sex, or just entertain yourself with her for a while!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Hot tubs are so 1980's


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## Begin again (Jul 4, 2016)

badsanta said:


> To me the word "foreplay" invokes the idea of actions that are specifically purposed for enhancing sexual arousal. If anything my wife prefers any activities or gestures that are overtly sexual to be downplayed if not right out avoided during daily life in favor of dedicating time to being a team to get things accomplished.
> 
> She does like to be reminded that I "care" about her during the day, but I would not go so far as to say that qualifies as sexual foreplay. Yes it improves her emotional closeness and sexual receptivity once the moment occurs, because she needs to feel me put more emphasis on "who" she is as a person compared to "what" she can offer me as a sexual object. So if I text her that I'm "thinking of you" she will likely text me back playfully that she is not responsible if I got myself all aroused thinking of her. BUT if I text her, "is you back feeling better" she will respond to that knowing I care about her.


Feeling seduced, pursued, complimented, charmed, cherished, and made to feel beautiful are a woman's biggest turn ons. (This is Esther Perel, but I wholeheartedly agree!) Most of the list above is not sexual. A woman is arroused between her ears before she is between her legs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Begin again said:


> *Feeling seduced, pursued, complimented, charmed, cherished, and made to feel beautiful are a woman's biggest turn ons.* (This is Esther Perel, but I wholeheartedly agree!) Most of the list above is not sexual. A woman is arroused between her ears before she is between her legs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In a LTR the *"context"* in which these elements occur can make them go from being her biggest turn on into her biggest turn off! 

If we just spent an ample amount of time together (including having sex), the kids now need her attention, and she feels exhausted and overwhelmed with other things that need to get done, ...I can with about a 100% degree of certainty say that if I continued to "seduce, persue, compliment, charm, cherish, and make her feel beautiful" that it would be a HUGE TURN OFF! I'd probably feel more like a pesky mosquito that will not stop buzzing in her face and trying to get her.

This is why my wife feels like me actively being on a team together to help with the day to day routine of being a family is what make her feel the closest to me.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Feeling loved and accepted just as I am makes me feel close to my husband. And when I feel close to him, physical intimacy seems to flow naturally from that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Begin again said:


> Feeling seduced, pursued, complimented, charmed, cherished, and made to feel beautiful are a woman's biggest turn ons. (This is Esther Perel, but I wholeheartedly agree!) Most of the list above is not sexual. A woman is arroused between her ears before she is between her legs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And if there's nothing emotional between the ears, good luck with that...


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## Begin again (Jul 4, 2016)

badsanta said:


> In a LTR the *"context"* in which these elements occur can make them go from being her biggest turn on into her biggest turn off!
> 
> If we just spent an ample amount of time together (including having sex), the kids now need her attention, and she feels exhausted and overwhelmed with other things that need to get done, ...I can with about a 100% degree of certainty say that if I continued to "seduce, persue, compliment, charm, cherish, and make her feel beautiful" that it would be a HUGE TURN OFF! I'd probably feel more like a pesky mosquito that will not stop buzzing in her face and trying to get her.
> 
> This is why my wife feels like me actively being on a team together to help with the day to day routine of being a family is what make her feel the closest to me.


Perhaps it's the woman. I know that if he's driving to the goal line with his compliments, then it will be a turn off. But given how much of my day I spend being "mom" and "housekeeper" and " organizer," I appreciate being reminded he still finds me the woman he most wants. And not just sexually, but in all ways.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Begin again said:


> *Perhaps it's the woman.* I know that if he's driving to the goal line with his compliments, then it will be a turn off. But given how much of my day I spend being "mom" and "housekeeper" and " organizer," *I appreciate being reminded he still finds me the woman he most wants. And not just sexually, but in all ways.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Let us put that in *context*:



Begin again said:


> *I've been separated for about 7 months now and met a few men when I tried online dating.* So, suffice to say that I know a LOT of married couples or formerly married couples and it seems there's no magic for a couple working out. I've known couples that never fought, but the neglect was so bad that one had an affair. I've known couples that did the whole party scene with their neighbors and both ended up cheating. I* know couples who stayed together until the kids left the house and others (like me) who decided that another decade of arguing and unhappiness wasn't a good home life.*


Since you are separated and not yet divorced, let us apply this thread to your STBXH in hopes of reconciliation. If I can ask candidly and honestly, what would it take for him to make you feel close to him again? Do you want him to be attracted to you and want sex, or at this point would it be more important to resolve disputes easily and start working together as a solid team to accomplish things together that are almost impossible to do alone? If my suspicions are correct you would prefer him to be an amicable teammate first, but also as a second priority someone that makes you feel like a woman.

If you are dating again, odds are your friends/family are being supportive teammates and you are overlooking the importance of that in a marriage. If you go out and find a relationship for the sole focus of making you feel like a woman again, odds are it will be a rebound relationship based on using sex to numb your pain. 

So think of your answer ONLY in the context of what you would need from your STBXH to reconcile and feel intimately close to him again?

Badsanta


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## Begin again (Jul 4, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Let us put that in *context*:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We are still attempting reconciliation. Honestly, I want both, but neither is my top priority. For us, I need to feel that spark, that chemistry. The thing that makes you look at someone from afar and want to be close to them. 

He's working on his confidence, which is critical to any success we may have. He's already said he's falling in love with me again; I'm hoping he can be outwardly a man I want to be with. I've had sexual compatibility, I've had personality compatibility, and I've had teamwork compatibility (my husband). Perhaps I want too much to have all in a single person, but I think that if I can bring my authentic self to a relationship, then I hope I can deserve the same. Only time will tell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Begin again said:


> We are still attempting reconciliation. Honestly, I want both, but neither is my top priority. For us,* I need to feel that spark, that chemistry. The thing that makes you look at someone from afar and want to be close to them. *


*Love has seasons. You can't have a desire to feel closer to someone that is already at your side*. If you must spark, you might be able to throw an arc to make him jump back and give you some personal space or get up off the couch and help you.

If you are missing those "butterflies in your stomach" of excitement when he is around you and wanting him to pursue you... well if you must make him get a job as a highway patrolman, and pass by him at 100mph everyday on the freeway!

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## Begin again (Jul 4, 2016)

badsanta said:


> *Love has seasons. You can't have a desire to feel closer to someone that is already at your side*. If you must spark, you might be able to throw an arc to make him jump back and give you some personal space or get up off the couch and help you.
> 
> If you are missing those "butterflies in your stomach" of excitement when he is around you and wanting him to pursue you... well if you must make him get a job as a highway patrolman, and pass by him at 100mph everyday on the freeway!
> 
> ...


Thanks. I think you thread jacked your own thread... I'll go over and post on mine. I wish you continued success!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

An update to this thread...

This likely belongs in my thread of Marital PUA Moves for the reluctant wife (deleted that thread a while back as it was back when I was trying too hard which is counter productive). Now that things have been improving, I have still held a little bit of a grudge for her unwillingness to initiate. So the following happened completely naturally without any premeditated ideas of manipulating my wife...

We were going to bed, I was rather horny BUT way too tired to act upon these feelings. So I just joked to my wife that she was free of me (playfully) grabbing at her and gaming her for sex that I normally do when I am very aroused, and that I was so tired that I was about to fall asleep. I told her I was very aroused, but that I only had the energy to imagine kissing her and rubbing her legs. ...well, apparently the timing for this to happen was perfect as she happened to be very receptive and took this as an opportunity to toy with me and "test" just how sleepy I really was! 

We ended up having sex and she did ALL the work and I enjoyed every moment of it. What has me scratching my head a little is that apparently the quality of lovemaking ended up being extremely good for her! I am not sure if my efforts to improve our intimacy have been working or if she got some form of unique validation by "keeping me VERY awake" when I was seriously exhausted. Perhaps a little of both. On the day this occurred, it had been an emotionally rough day for her so I honestly was not expecting her to be in the mood. 

Regards,
Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Another update to this thread... Ever since starting this thread I have adhered to all the original agreements that my wife and I have made spelled out in the original post. My wife has also been making an effort as well as I notice that she no longer rejects my advances (unless we have an argument that needs to be resolved). 

So the last time I found myself in uncharted territory. My wife initiated and it was ME that was not really in the mood. She suggested we get naked and snuggle which we proceeded to do, and I had no reaction to it. I actually started to feel a little anxiety of, "oh crap, if she discovers I'm not in the mood to the point that I am not even getting an erection, she will very likely get her feelings hurt!" But I also laughed to myself and thought, "well OK, perhaps I need to let her feel what it is to have to work for it!" After about ten minutes of snuggling and still getting no reaction out of myself with her naked beside me, I decided to change my attitude and just make it all about her so she could really enjoy the moment. 

It was as if karma is teaching me what I have been putting my wife through all these years. Just because I was not getting aroused did not mean that I had lost all my loving feeling for my wife? No, it just meant I was tired and I just ate too much pizza! I could also see why my wife could easily give into feelings of anxiety and push me away as that would be easier than me getting frustrated that she was not getting aroused with me while trying every trick in the book.

...so in making it all about her, I mixed it up a little and did a few things I have never done before. I basically shifted our bodies around and proceeded to give her an "orgasmic meditation" for which I had seen a few videos on youtube like this, but without the talking, gloves, or cheesyness:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-86ZJvBBnNU Rather explicit and NSFW

But instead of ending things there, I took those same concepts and began giving her oral. 

Not sure what exactly happened but she described the experience as the absolute best oral sex she had ever had. To the point she looked at me and said that I could do that to her anytime I wanted. By this time I was now in the mood and we proceeded to have a great lovemaking session. 

Badsanta


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Badsanta, do you usually have a hard time getting erect? Or is this pretty unusual for you?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Does hearing that she loves you mean just as much to you as the physical pleasure of sex?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

jld said:


> Does hearing that she loves you mean just as much to you as the physical pleasure of sex?


Her telling me she loves me is actually very important to me. Especially since she does not say it that often and is admittedly not a very affectionate person. I'm OK without hearing it, but since she is someone that almost never says it, it means a lot to me when she does. 

For me the physical pleasure of sex is about feeling close and connected to my wife. I do have another thread about that and I do think my own wife misunderstands that my desire for pleasure is more important than feeling connected. But that has been getting better.

As far as just raw physical pleasure goes, the more confidence my wife builds in the bedroom tends to coincide with my increasing levels of pleasure. Since sex tends to be about some sort of validation, I guess mine is about making my wife feel loved. 

Badsanta


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Imagine having to cook a great dinner for your husband, but he will not give you any clues as to what he likes. You guess and perhaps he will like it, or perhaps not. Not every meal you prepare will be great, and he gets bored quickly if you try the same things too many times. He tells you many times that your efforts to cook are just not that important to him when you fail, but yet you know the best way to a man's heart is through a great meal together. Imagine how that would make you feel while trying to decide what to cook for dinner, that is often how I feel in the bedroom.
> 
> 
> Badsanta


This describes my relationship perfectly and I totally understand the confusion and frustration. For me it is not just sex but also with broader issues. He is the opposite to a control freak, he wants me to be in the drivers seat but is reluctant to tell me where he wants to go. It often leaves me feeling inadequate and anxious as I am not naturally happy being controlling either. It certainly leads to tension both sides.

We have been talking about these issues a lot over the summer and we pretty much have come to the conclusion that it likely originates way back from his childhood and having a domineering parent who basically wants to be pleased, but is never happy or the happiness is only short lived. As a child he would prefer to be 'invisible' than to mess up and make a mistake - he would leave the mistakes for someone else to get the blame (other siblings for example). Could it be that your wife was taught from an early age that everything she does is a potential mistake? Did she have a excessively controlling parent who would be harsh on misjudgements? I know my husband finds it considerably easier to accept that I messed up, but very hard on himself when he gets it wrong. 

I have lots of examples of this but don't want to hog your thread.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

peacem said:


> *Could it be that your wife was taught from an early age that everything she does is a potential mistake?* Did she have a excessively controlling parent who would be harsh on misjudgements? I know my husband finds it considerably easier to accept that I messed up, but very hard on himself when he gets it wrong.
> 
> I have lots of examples of this but don't want to hog your thread.


Since we are using cooking as a metaphor it is funny how that plays out in real life for my wife...

I'm laughing as I type this, but her mom NEVER even allowed her into the kitchen to learn how things work! To the point that my wife still gets upset about it to this day. When I met my wife in college, she did not even know how to work a coffee maker. 

A few years ago out of frustration she put herself through cooking school so that she would no longer feel like a complete idiot in the kitchen. It was worth it because the kids now literally scream for joy when their mom cooks for them! Me too!

So you can see she has had to go through a struggle with regards to that topic and things in our marriage have also improved because of it! 

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

badsanta said:


> *Do I think she could arouse me and do all the work with me at zero? I honestly doubt it! *Those are just not skills she has in her wheel house. And that is probably my fault. She was raised extremely conservatively while I was not. In the bedroom I am the one that has to work on building her confidence, and I do not ever see that working the other way around.


An update to this thread and a comment regarding the topic I quoted above. I've continued to adhere to the things in my original post that my wife needed from me in order to give a chance for things to improve, and they indeed have been improving.

Recently we had a moment of intimacy where I was simply not in the mood, and she was and had to do all the work. To my surprise, not only was she able to do it, but it was incredible. She could not get enough of me, and wanted more than I could give so I found ways to let her continue enjoying the moment after I was finished. Then after everything was over something odd happened, she apologized more than once for being so aroused. At first I thought this was odd, but now that I think through all her years of complaining that I make her feel inadequate that it is likely that she is extremely sensitive to how that can make the other person feel. In this instance however she had likely reached a point to where she could no longer suppress her libido at that moment. 

*I thought that may add some food for thought for those in a "HD/LD" relationship. The LD person often struggles with feelings of inadequacy and likely knows exactly what things will trigger that. That may in turn cause them to suppress their own libido out of compassion when the HD partner may be unavailable for whatever reason, because he/she would never wish to make another person feel that way. *

So in my marriage, I feel like I am now having to work on explaining to my wife not to feel ashamed that her libido can at times now out power and out last me, and that I do not mind putting in a little extra effort even after my opportunity for me to be aroused has come and gone. 

Sincerely, 
Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

An update to this thread...

A rather unexpected turn of events finally revealed something has been causing intimacy in my marriage to be rather problematic for the past many years. I am not going to go into detail, but it was a health condition that was causing my wife to suffer in a wide variety of ways. She had been ignoring the symptoms until recently they became unmanageable for her. Fortunately her problem was 100% treatable and one that is not uncommon (people just don't talk about it which is why I am not sharing any details). Anyway, once she decided on the treatment option, she is as good as new if not better than new. 

So now my wife is feeling better with a vengeance. She has become 100% validated that I was pushing her for too much intimacy in the past given the state of her health. BUT she also knows I care about her and have worked hard on our marriage. So NOW the tables are turned on me and she can enjoy me being the one to suffer to try to keep up with her. For the first time I know what it is like to get groped when I am not expecting it and I am not really in the mood to be playful! 

So you can only imagine that if I managed to get my wife to feel confident when she was not feeling very well, now that she is 110% I have myself a whole new set of challenges to deal with and my work cut out for me again!

Regards,
Badsanta


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Does this mean the back rubs are back on BS?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

badsanta said:


> So now my wife is feeling better with a vengeance. She has become 100% validated that I was pushing her for too much intimacy in the past given the state of her health. BUT she also knows I care about her and have worked hard on our marriage. So NOW the tables are turned on me and she can enjoy me being the one to suffer to try to keep up with her. For the first time I know what it is like to get groped when I am not expecting it and I am not really in the mood to be playful!
> 
> So you can only imagine that if I managed to get my wife to feel confident when she was not feeling very well, now that she is 110% *I have myself a whole new set of challenges to deal with and my work cut out for me again!*
> 
> ...


I'm going to go with the glass half full approach and say Congratulations. You are entering a 'feast' phase of marriage. Enjoy every second of it.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

peacem said:


> Does this mean the back rubs are back on BS?


I have been getting back rubs now that you mention it!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Lila said:


> I'm going to go with the glass half full approach and say Congratulations. You are entering a 'feast' phase of marriage. Enjoy every second of it.


My wife was joking with me today and said she is still planning to always tell me "NO" whenever I really want something, "you know, just to keep up with the status quo in our marriage!" Meanwhile, she kept grabbing and groping at me as we were out in public doing some Christmas shopping for the kids!


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

badsanta said:


> I have been getting back rubs now that you mention it!


Wow! So happy for you. That non sexual intimacy is going to be the 'glue' you both need. Amazing. :smile2: Get that vibe on permanent charge.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

...an update to this thread.

My wife's recent ramped up libido was in response to me giving her some extra TLC during her recovery from a surgery. Things are indeed improving still, but many of her negative behaviors and attitudes towards sexual intimacy have gradually been creeping back into place. 

Since the first time I started this thread, we had are first big argument about sex today, and she said some things that really hurt my feelings. I struggled to keep my cool, but managed to do so and redirected the argument from a flurry of self defensive comments into trying to find a way to constructively talk about our feelings. What followed was a rather pleasant conversation about her needs versus my needs and additional ways to continue working together to resolve differences in ways that we both might enjoy. 

What I get now is that I have a history of getting upset, complaining, and being impatient about sex that proceeds me. Years ago, I might initiate and she would reject me, then I would complain to her that she should not judge me for the fact I would just go watch porn instead. She might offer me a HJ in the past, but I would reject that and insist she was not even trying to get herself in the mood. Today things have gotten much better and I have demonstrated that I can be much more patient with her. She accepts that I may take matters into my own hands if an opportunity is not available, but she still feels as though I would get upset now that I am very reserved to only initiate every so often. She knows now that when I initiate that I mean business, and unless there are extraordinary circumstances she is making a legitimate effort to become much more receptive (with positive results). 

She claims that 99% of her problem is still having a fear that I would get upset, but that she can tell I am making an effort. She also admitted that she struggles to understand my sexual drive with regards to how to balance things in a way that we BOTH get to enjoy each other the most. So for the first time she mentioned the idea of quickies. She said she would be very open to trying this, but warned that she feared that I would abuse that by asking for too many and that it is very important for her to feel emotionally connected to me the majority of the times we are together. She also claimed that she feared that I would not be able to do a quickie and called me a "sexual sloth" in that she knows I enjoy taking my time before and after (as does she), but that in order for a quickie to work that it should not interfere with our schedules. So we had a fun and playful conversation on this topic. 

My main reason for this update was my excitement of experiencing the two of us getting into a very heated and hurtful argument over sex and then actually managing to turn it around into a positive conversation on the topic. We finished the argument in a rather playful way that put me on cloud 9. Way better than our previous arguments. I think the biggest difference was that I had to let go and stop being defensive when the argument started and just ask, "how can we continue helping each other, and you know I am trying and I definitely see you trying." Making that transition was not easy right after hearing her say some things that kind of hurt, but I managed to stay calm and turn it around.

Badsanta


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

So, as long as you go along with the box she has you in all is well 





badsanta said:


> ...an update to this thread.
> 
> My wife's recent ramped up libido was in response to me giving her some extra TLC during her recovery from a surgery. Things are indeed improving still, but many of her negative behaviors and attitudes towards sexual intimacy have gradually been creeping back into place.
> 
> ...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

anonmd said:


> So, as long as you go along with the box she has you in all is well


No we are both making an effort. She has changed her attitude towards many issues we used to have and we are much more understanding of one another. Instead of something causing anxiety, we are now playful about certain topics. That has caused the quality of life in our marriage to be a lot more "fun" than it used to be.

Badsanta


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

badsanta said:


> I'm going to add another point to the things I am learning here:
> 
> *#7 Initiating sex must be done with the correct attitude!* I have read a lot of things that indicate that women do not like to be asked for sex, and while sometimes it is unavoidable when scheduling conflicts arise and a couple has to carve out some time, a husband should avoid asking AND have the correct attitude towards "initiating" sex. The correct attitude to initiate sex involves being both very assertive AND respectful to your wife simultaneously.
> 
> ...


It can, because it doesn't need to be "simultaneous". You can be assertive when it comes to showing your desire to your wife but back off and be understanding if she doesn't feel the same in this moment.
It took me a while to learn not to take it personally whenever this would happen. But it really is a mistake to take it as a personal insult if your partner is in less of a mood than you. It also seems too ego-centric to assume that "since I feel a certain way, my wife should also be feeling this way, if only she would make herself feel that way" etc.
Sometimes it's just a biological function of the body. My wife explained it once to me in quite a convincing way, that it has nothing to with her general attraction towards me. I felt better afterwards, whenever she would offer her "service", it wasn't as depressing as before.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> It can, because it doesn't need to be "simultaneous". You can be assertive when it comes to showing your desire to your wife but back off and be understanding if she doesn't feel the same in this moment.
> It took me a while to learn not to take it personally whenever this would happen. But it really is a mistake to take it as a personal insult if your partner is in less of a mood than you. It also seems too ego-centric to assume that "since I feel a certain way, my wife should also be feeling this way, if only she would make herself feel that way" etc.
> Sometimes it's just a biological function of the body. My wife explained it once to me in quite a convincing way, that it has nothing to with her general attraction towards me. I felt better afterwards, whenever she would offer her "service", it wasn't as depressing as before.


Reading back over that, *#7* I think was my wife trying to move towards things just becoming more natural. As in we should avoid scheduling sex unless for some reason it becomes unavoidable. And to just use common sense when I initiate that the moment is appropriate for us to both enjoy it. 

Considering I had a defense mechanism of initiating when I might not exactly be in the mood, but only mildly so. She rather me initiate when I am really in the mood, BUT I should easily be able to see if the moment is not ideal and back off as opposed to pushing her to say no. I can see that now!

Thanks for the advice!

Badsanta


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Would it not be easier if you had an arrangement whereby you asked HER to initiate it, whenever she is in the mood? This would eliminate ALL you anxieties and any issues of rejection.
Since I am pretty much always ready and available and rarely completely not in the mood, my wife just comes up to me every now and again (2-3 days, which is my rhythm and she knows it). I don't have to stress out anymore, try to predict the moment and wait for the perfect star alignment etc. Much easier this way I found.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> *Would it not be easier if you had an arrangement whereby you asked HER to initiate it, whenever she is in the mood?* This would eliminate ALL you anxieties and any issues of rejection.
> Since I am pretty much always ready and available and rarely completely not in the mood, my wife just comes up to me every now and again (2-3 days, which is my rhythm and she knows it). I don't have to stress out anymore, try to predict the moment and wait for the perfect star alignment etc. Much easier this way I found.


She refuses to initiate... I've asked her about this. Apparently many many many years ago when she was pregnant with our first child she would enjoy to initiate, but I would often reject her and that was excruciatingly traumatic for her. I was under a lot of stress at the time with a new job.


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## 247769 (May 18, 2016)

So glad to hear of your progress, I too share in the same struggle. It seems they can change for a time but inevitably fall back into the same uninterested rut. Knowing what they can do and refuse to is almost worse that never experiencing their sexual potential. Stay strong and try to keep being positive.

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

badsanta said:


> She refuses to initiate... I've asked her about this. *Apparently* many many many years ago when she was pregnant with our first child she would enjoy to initiate, but I would often reject her and that was excruciatingly traumatic for her. I was under a lot of stress at the time with a new job.


Apparently? You don't remember? Ok, that's kind of an important detail! 
Also it doesn't really seem to fit with your "profile" of an HD partner. 
Even when under a lot of stress, I always found that sex relaxed me and unless i was physically unavailable, would have found it hard to reject my wife, under most circumstances. Was it really just the job?
Do you think this might be a reason why she is sometimes not always as attentive to your needs as she could be or not as compassionate whenever you felt anger from rejection?
As a couple, one develops certain habits or "norms". It is conceivable that she now thinks that rejection is a certain "norm" in a relationship and doesn't see it as a big issue for you as a result, when you are experiencing it.

I realise you might have more time now to write up and wishing to "heal" your sexual dynamic but it seems to me - even though you are the one writing up about your hurdles - that *she* is the one who might require healing, if she is still afraid to initiate. (Unless she is using it as an excuse why she doesn't _want_ to initiate which i view as less probable).


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Apparently? *You don't remember?* Ok, that's kind of an important detail!
> Also it doesn't really seem to fit with your "profile" of an HD partner.
> Even when under a lot of stress, I always found that sex relaxed me and unless i was physically unavailable, would have found it hard to reject my wife, under most circumstances. Was it really just the job?
> Do you think this might be a reason why she is sometimes not always as attentive to your needs as she could be or not as compassionate whenever you felt anger from rejection?
> ...


I vaguely remember and think her now claiming it was so traumatic seems to be a bit of an overreaction. Perhaps it was an issue back then, but today it is more of an excuse. 

But to look at things in an uncomplicated way... If I initiate at a higher frequency than she is capable of even being receptive, it is fair to conclude that she has no need to initiate.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I thought the whole point of the thread (and others) was that you were feeling anxiety or even anger when she sometimes rejected you? (I think you used the word "anger" if I am not mistaken).
Whether it is an excuse or an actual trauma (too strong a word perhaps), it is still worth examining where it is coming from as it doesn't seem quite right to me and something that needs addressing.
Since my wife started initiating on a regular basis, it has solved 95% of my problems! (to do with sex, obviously)


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

badsanta said:


> I'm going to add another point to the things I am learning here:
> 
> *#7 Initiating sex must be done with the correct attitude!* I have read a lot of things that indicate that women do not like to be asked for sex, and while sometimes it is unavoidable when scheduling conflicts arise and a couple has to carve out some time, a husband should avoid asking AND have the correct attitude towards "initiating" sex. The correct attitude to initiate sex involves being both very assertive AND respectful to your wife simultaneously.
> 
> ...


An update to this thread as *#7 regarding how to initiate sex with the correct attitude is still ringing true in my marriage. *

Sometimes it help to have some moves or things planned out to "get your wife in the mood" but let me stop and talk about that some more.* It is very incorrect to do something for the sole purpose of getting your wife in the mood. * What you have to do is take a step back and look at how science currently defines our systems of sexuality as a "dual system" in that we have a system of sexual arousal (things that get us excited and particularly the things that perhaps men place way too much emphasis on) and a system of sexual inhibition (things that we shall refer to as the proverbial "cøck block). *It is critical that initiating sex must address BOTH systems of sexual response simultaneously so that the dynamic of both arousal and inhibition can work together in a positive way.*

The first thing I have found helpful with this is humor and a positive attitude. But without perhaps helping your partner clear her mind of all the negative things from her day will make being too sexually playful rather unwelcomed at times which can really take an emotional toll on those struggling to initiate sex hoping for their partner to become enthusiastic. This is where many books on romance and/or message get into "setting the mood" so to speak, which is to help reduce or let go of all those negative things that are distracting and rather inhibiting towards being able to enjoy sex.

So I have found that if one "playfully sets the mood" with enough creativity that it can be the winning combination needed to get your spouse to drop her inhibitions and that playfulness should help bring out a smile and some laughter, which is the key ingredient in any relationship. And that is to just try and have fun being with one another. 

But wait Badsanta, how does one "playfully set the mood?" Well if the stereotype of setting the mood would be lighting some candles, you have to do exactly that but ALSO be very creative about it. Think turning on a black light and dancing all around in some neon underwear while freaky and groovy music plays in the background (_Sure honey we can keep talking about taxes if you want, but let's dance while we talk through all our deductions, cause I want to see if I can deduct all your cloths from your body!_). Eventually silliness if done just right in this manner can really help set the mood and segue into something much more fun and seriously crazy!

Cheers,
Badsanta


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> *It is very incorrect to do something for the sole purpose of getting your wife in the mood.*


That doesn't make any sense to me.

Why is it incorrect?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Personal said:


> That doesn't make any sense to me.
> 
> Why is it incorrect?


Focusing only on female sexual arousal and meanwhile ignoring the female system of sexual inhibition is extremely problematic.

Have you ever heard of women complaining that they think they would enjoy sex, but they just can't escape from their own minds that are still busy thinking through their day? Research strongly suggests that the female system of sexual inhibition is often much stronger than her system of arousal. Imagine it like driving a car in which you encourage your wife to press the gas, but meanwhile you can't get her foot off the brake pedal. So shifting focus to the needs of her system of sexual inhibition is kind of like giving her the encouragement to take her foot off the brakes. Then she can even find coasting around in neutral can be exciting with the help of just a little push.

It is my opinion that a successful LTR likely needs an initiation ritual that focuses MORE on the female's system of sexual inhibition and just let arousal happen naturally all on its own. 

Seriously imagine the female in the relationship looking forwards to sex solely because her partner is great at helping her let go of all her worries in her mind and forget about that in a very relaxing and playful way. Meanwhile those in situations where someone is sexually needy in the bedroom and only focused on arousal tend to create even more stress and the female system of sexual inhibition goes on lock down. 

So what does a ritual that focuses on sexual inhibition look like? I used to think it was a long back rub and listening to my wife talk about her day as she unwinds. Now that does tend to work, but sometimes she gets herself really upset while talking about certain topics and then I find it to be more like a session where even my own system of sexual inhibition starts to lock up, because it is hard even for a male to get aroused while discussing his mother-in-law's urinary incontinence, how she is now refusing to fly anymore, and that the whole family will now have to go visit her overseas if we want to the kids to see her. So then the segue from that topic, into hey your boobs are so sexy tonight becomes impossible. 

I do find my wife and I enjoy watching TV shows together, and there are a few that are slightly titillating enough to help her escape her day AND be in the mood, but there is a huge problem with that! My wife love to binge watch TV! As soon as we find something she likes, she CAN'T stop watching. Why is that? Because the show does such a great job at helping her escape from her day, and that is what she needs the most.

So how do I as her husband (I often represent most of her problems from the day) help her to escape from her day? ....well that is the part I am focusing on and learning more about right now. The primary ingredient seems to be knowing how to have fun, and having something exciting planned that is strong enough to help the female mind escape her day and start to feel upbeat and playful. I actually find myself trying to think about turning my bedroom/bathroom into a VIP nightclub/spa or something of that nature in which all of these things become useful:

1) Lighting. Drastically alter lighting to help set the mood. This is likely why smart bulbs that can sync to an app have started gaining popularity because it allows lighting to become very dynamic and creative.

2) Music. A good song from the past is very good at eliciting past memories of having fun, and those can serve to help push away all the stress from the day. The selection of music for this is very personal to each person, so it depends on how well you know your partner for this to be effective or annoying.

3) Smell. Not to be ignored, but smell can incite very strong memories and or moods. Just like real estate agents like baking cookies while showing houses to clients, the same effect can happen in the bedroom. This category however is the most challenging for it to work without also being annoying. For my wife, it is simply the smell of a clean home and freshly laundered bed sheets, and this is accomplished by hiring a professional cleaning service. 

Now if you look at those three things, all of them are things that stimulate the senses. But it is a form of stimulation NOT for arousal, but more for helping one relax and escape from their own mind. Each of those three things can be adjusted to be mild or strong (soft lighting versus disco lighting) depending on how much help someone needs to be distracted from their day and let go of the brakes so that they can finally start having a good time.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I just want to say, this seems like a whole lot of work in order to have a partner who wants to have sex with you. It seems to put the burden on the male to engineer the female's whole mood, mind, etc. I want to go on record and say that not all females and relationships are like this.

If I had to engineer my man to get him to want to have sex with me, I'd rethink the relationship.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Livvie said:


> I just want to say, this seems like a whole lot of work in order to have a partner who wants to have sex with you. It seems to put the burden on the male to engineer the female's whole mood, mind, etc. I want to go on record and say that not all females and relationships are like this.
> 
> If I had to engineer my man to get him to want to have sex with me, I'd rethink the relationship.


Oh I 100% agree with how you feel on that! It sucks at times and I have beat myself up over it. 

But when you step back to rethink the relationship, one has to look at the big picture of which sex is only a small part. There are many ways in which my wife works very hard in our marriage to make our life the best it can be for me and our children. At the same time she used to struggle with her self confidence and feel undeserving of my attraction to her. 

So do I have to be the one to put in some effort to make things work and for us to both enjoy intimacy? Yes. And I have started to find that I enjoy doing it is well and have a rather playful and creative attitude about it. 

My wife actually said to me the other night, "I was really not in the mood, but OMG sometimes I adore how you push all my buttons in just the right ways to make an experience like that into something I would have never imagined that I would enjoy so much!"

I'm happy and she is happy. We both have our labors of love so to speak, and we both make it a point to be grateful for what we do for one another these days. 

...but YES! I really used to beat myself up over it in the past, and ended up in some very dark places emotionally!

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> It is my opinion that a successful LTR likely needs an initiation ritual that focuses MORE on the female's system of sexual inhibition and just let arousal happen naturally all on its own.
> 
> Seriously imagine the female in the relationship looking forwards to sex solely because her partner is great at helping her let go of all her worries in her mind and forget about that in a very relaxing and playful way. Meanwhile those in situations where someone is sexually needy in the bedroom and only focused on arousal tend to create even more stress and the female system of sexual inhibition goes on lock down.


Looking forward to sex solely for the reason you have describe above, sounds pretty miserable to me. What happened to looking forward to sex solely because they enjoy the experience of sharing that sex?

I don't think it's needy to do things that generate arousal. In my experience doing that sees an increase in the desire for more sexual activity.

On the other hand if generating arousal causes more stress and lockdown. It's fair to say that they're not interested in taking part in a sexual activity.



badsanta said:


> ...Now if you look at those three things, all of them are things that stimulate the senses. But it is a form of stimulation NOT for arousal, but more for helping one relax and escape from their own mind. Each of those three things can be adjusted to be mild or strong (soft lighting versus disco lighting) depending on how much help someone needs to be distracted from their day and let go of the brakes *so that they can finally start having a good time*.


So it's still all about trying to get your wife aroused in a very convoluted way. All while trying to convince yourself and possibly her (though I doubt she'd be that clueless), that you're not actually trying to get her aroused?

You could just try kissing her instead.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Personal said:


> Looking forward to sex solely for the reason you have describe above, sounds pretty miserable to me. What happened to looking forward to sex solely because they enjoy the experience of sharing that sex?


I enjoy looking forwards to intimacy, meanwhile my wife may be struggling with something upsetting her mom just texted.



> I don't think it's needy to do things that generate arousal. In my experience doing that sees an increase in the desire for more sexual activity.


My wife is not exactly going to desire me to crank up more physical intimacy if she is upset about something and needs help to cool down first. Which is 99% of her day.



> On the other hand if generating arousal causes more stress and lockdown. It's fair to say that they're not interested in taking part in a sexual activity.


Correct, but once she unwinds and lets go of her day THEN the mood changes.





> So it's still all about trying to get your wife aroused in a very convoluted way. All while trying to convince yourself and possibly her (though I doubt she'd be that clueless), that you're not actually trying to get her aroused?
> 
> You could just try kissing her instead.


My wife knows when I'm in the mood, and she will actually let me know that she needs help cooling down from something that has her upset so that we can start being more playful. Kissing her while she is calming down might work sometimes, but usually best to let her decompress first.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

badsanta said:


> My wife is not exactly going to desire me to crank up more physical intimacy if she is upset about something and needs help to cool down first. Which is 99% of her day.


PS: She is usually stressed out from dealing with me mostly and all my super needy temper tantrums completely unrelated to intimacy. I mean seriously, no one wants to deal with me when the cats destroyed my shoelaces and I'm out of Mountain Dew!


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Do you give her enough space?

That said did you ever tell her you want to use her for sex etc?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

badsanta said:


> PS: *She is usually stressed out from dealing with me mostly and all my super needy temper tantrums completely unrelated to intimacy. *I mean seriously, no one wants to deal with me when the cats destroyed my shoelaces and I'm out of Mountain Dew!


At least you are honest about it!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Livvie said:


> I just want to say, this seems like a whole lot of work in order to have a partner who wants to have sex with you. It seems to put the burden on the male to engineer the female's whole mood, mind, etc. I want to go on record and say that not all females and relationships are like this.
> 
> If I had to engineer my man to get him to want to have sex with me, I'd rethink the relationship.


I certainly would not stay with a man like that, either. Must be strange to be with a man who is *not* nearly always in the mood.

But I do not think there is anything wrong with a man's taking responsibility for arousing the female. Seems completely normal to me, actually. And quite healthy.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

jld said:


> I certainly would not stay with a man like that, either. Must be strange to be with a man who is *not* nearly always in the mood.
> 
> But I do not think there is anything wrong with a man's taking responsibility for arousing the female. Seems completely normal to me, actually. And quite healthy.


I agree with you, but also remain gender neutral on this topic. I think in many relationships that one person in particular takes on the role of leading intimacy in the relationship. 

There are perhaps some very confident and outgoing women that may find themselves attracted to an introverted and shy man. In the event she is experienced and knows what she wants, this husband then perhaps becomes her blank canvas for her to sculpt a marital masterpiece of what she wants/needs intimately. But in this case, the man will likely always look towards his wife to take the lead.

Also in other cases that may include some form of trauma, the man's instincts to protect his partner may cause him to become sexually reserved. In this situation it will become the woman's duty to take the lead and demonstrate what she feels comfortable consenting to intimately. 

I'll admit in my marriage that my wife experienced some medical issues that made intercourse painful for about the course of a year. During this time it was extremely problematic that I was the one taking the lead, and she lacked the confidence to know how to take the lead and guide things in a way for us to still enjoy being with one another.

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

jld said:


> But I do not think there is anything wrong with a man's taking responsibility for arousing the female. Seems completely normal to me, actually. And quite healthy.


To followup on this my wife and I were talking the other day and for her it is 90% about me doing things to improve our marriage outside the bedroom. Once we are starting to enjoy intimacy in the bedroom, I can turn our lovemaking into an absolute awkward messy train wreck of me coming across super un-smooth with haphazard lovemaking ideas, and she is still happy with me because she knows I mean well. 

But when things have been great outside the bedroom AND I manage to find a fun and creative idea that works great in the bedroom, *my wife has been rather enthusiastic about wanting more of that here lately!* Yes that requires a great deal of work in our marriage for me, but I'm honestly not that bothered by it. Perhaps I am just a "Mr Nice Guy," but instead being frustrated, I've found that persistence along with having an staying positive that all my covert contracts will eventually work, seems to be the winning combination. Or I don't know, perhaps being a _successful_ nice guy requires some genuine creative talent along with being unreasonably confident! That I've got plenty of, but I'm just not sure some days if it is creative talent or overconfidence that wins! For sure my wife always seems interested in what ideas I'll come up with next, and I enjoy finding new ways to be creative!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

badsanta said:


> *#5 If I really need her and she is not in the mood, then just enjoy it!* She enjoys pleasing me, but at the same time if she is not in the mood she does not want me to get disappointed because she will not be able to get there with me. This can be a difficult thing to do for me because I get the most enjoyment of feeling her aroused, but at the same time I should not reject her simple desire to please me when I am extremely aroused.



An update in regards to the above. Since my wife has been enthusiastic about the efforts I have put into improving intimacy in our marriage, something new happened recently as I found myself in a moment described above. My wife and I talk in detail about certain things I like, and I have explained to her why I might enjoy certain things that are a little different or may seem silly to most people. Well not only did I find myself in a situation where my wife wanted me to just enjoy myself, but she was very enthusiastic about making the moment all about me. She was very confident to not only allow me to do certain things I enjoy, but she even advocated my enjoyment by taking things a step further with some real creativity of her own! 

I continue to be impressed with the progress we have made in our marriage.

Afterwards my wife even thanked me for not pushing her to enjoy herself, as she could tell it was one of those days where it was just not going to happen. But she admitted how wonderful it was for her to simply enjoy making me happy and having the confidence to enjoy knowing exactly what little things I like and why. In the past, I would have really struggled with this and would have likely rejected this opportunity and fussed at her for not even trying to "share" the moment together. I can see now that having had that past attitude was extremely destructive for any attempts to improve the quality of intimacy in my marriage. 

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Another update. 

As with all things in life you make a few steps forwards and then you have something that sets you back again. "Rinse, wash, and repeat" as I think some TAM will say. 

Up until now my wife has been strongly opposed to scheduling intimacy. She feels that it should be natural and spontaneous, but she however has never really appreciated all the work that goes into me accommodating her by being patient, trying to initiate and still finding that more often than not my chosen time to initiate does not jive very well with her plans for the day. 

A few weeks ago I hinted at the idea of us taking a few moments to spend time together, and she became furious that I messed up her whole schedule. She stopped everything to spend time with me, but she was so upset it was as if she just wanted to passive aggressively punish me with an angry hug and venting about how challenging her schedule gets when I ask her for time. Needless to say her attitude of "come here I am going to give it to you, but I am too angry to give it to you, and we are not doing this anymore" was not exactly an emotional place of healing and love for me...

Fast forward through a few more blunders that took place in a similar fashion, and she finally acknowledged that she needed to just plan for some time for us. The thing is that we both know the frequency that actually makes us both happy and that is mutually enjoyable. However, finding the right moments for that to happen and trying to be spontaneous about it was causing both of us a great deal of stress and unneeded anxiety. 

So we finally sat down and went through our weekly schedules and have agreed on set times for intimacy that also matches the best frequency that we have established as a couple. So far this has actually proven very positive for both of us. We may still enjoy moments of spontaneity but I am no longer responsible for making those moments happen in order to maintain our desired frequency. 

My wife is excited because I told her that I can now devote all my time and energy that I normally used to create opportunities for sexual intimacy in our relationship towards creating more enjoyable nonsexual intimacy. Both of us seem excited about this. I've never really been able to focus on this as I should, because I had to always keep guessing as to when our next best time would be for sex and trying to create ample opportunities for it to hopefully happen naturally for her. 

So this new turn seems to continue leading us in a good direction as it is allowing both of us to enjoy our marriage even more. I'm curious to see how it works and if she allows her project schedules to encroach on our time and starts trying to offer the proverbial rain checks that set us back again. She has already mentioned this concern and she wishes to reserve the right to reschedule our scheduled time, but I'll just wait and see how it goes for now.

As for now I'm expecting after a few weeks for this to turn into a wash, rinse and repeat scenario.

Badsanta


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

badsanta said:


> When I first started visiting here, it was to look for answers regarding mismatched drives. I wanted sex way more than my wife wanted it, and it created a serious problem. So after many years here are some of the things and realizations that have helped me:
> 
> *There is likely no such thing as LD!* It was just that I wanted my wife's sexuality to respond in the same way and same times that mine does. Her's works differently, and I simply was not listening to her. She responds to completely different things that I might respond to, and it has taken quiet a bit of time to recognize and nurture these things which I will mention.
> 
> ...




Very informative, thx.


This is what I've learned for my marriage, also a LD / HD mismatch.

Being LD is true. Just like being HD is true. LD don't desire sex for infinite reasons. HD love sex and want that connection often.

If you never get upset from the lack of sex, the LD will not see the lack of sex as a serious issue. The pressure is off and guess what? Sex still doesn't increase......

This is 2017 and there is no excuse and reason to be clueless why someone wants sex. We all finished high school and college, right?

Going to sleep at night really in the mood and the LD spouse does nothing isn't a caring and loving spouse. That's cruel and torturous and not what marriage is about.

When married, you are to take care of each others needs and not yourself as much anymore, or remain single.

Agreed, initiating and pressuring a LD spouse for sex is bad, but its a double edged sword. No more initiating and what might seem as pressure, means they are relived, great, I don't have to worry about having sex anymore. This is not a good thing because the sex will not increase, in fact, it may decrease or almost stop altogether.

If LD's don't see rejecting their spouse for intimacy as an issue, then reject them on their level, what they need and see how they feel.

Agreed, initiating sex during her period is not a great idea.

If I stopped relieving myself, toys and occasional porn viewing, my LD wife would not get a sex drive increase. Sure, its more natural but no sex increase is still no sex increase. The LD spouse is happy but the HD spouse suffers even more.


(01) LD will never change for their HD spouse
(02) HD will do all the research, always compromising......
(03) HD will have their sex life killed off
(04) HD will go to toys, porn, EA, PA
(05) LD will be angry and blame the HD for everything


Solution, never initiate sex with a LD spouse because wanting intimacy with them often is bad and all HD's want is sex sex sex, when they're not having sex much to begin with.

Buy yourself sexual toys, get it out of your system and then you never pester the LD for sex. This actually works great but that connection, intimacy and bond that comes from physicality and sex will never be there. Great friends, not lovers.

Sure, you can get along fine, talk, do things together, but as friends, not lovers, like hubby and wife.

Doing more chores will not increase intimacy.

Giving more space will not increase intimacy.

Taking the 5 love languages quiz helps. But this only works if both the LD and HD spouse apply what they've learned about each others main needs.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

CuddleBug said:


> (01) LD will never change for their HD spouse
> (02) HD will do all the research, always compromising......
> (03) HD will have their sex life killed off
> (04) HD will go to toys, porn, EA, PA
> ...



Thanks for sharing that... I am going through a bit of an awkward phase in my marriage right now. I do agree with you on one thing and that is that one partner (usually described on TAM as the HD) will do all the research and seek ways of compromise. 

Over the past few years I have worked to increase my wife's confidence. If I have had one goal, it is that! Along with this confidence, I have clearly made it a point to educate her as to how and why I respond to her sexually so that there is no mystery in that for her. She knows my drive and desire for sex is something that she struggles to keep up with, but here is where we are now...

She has asked me to completely stop initiating in favor of scheduled moments. Once we reach a scheduled moment of the week, I know I can enjoy anticipating that we will have time set aside for one another. But my wife for whatever reason is now enjoying, "trying to break me down" with her newfound confidence and understanding of how I respond to her. She knows that no matter how much fun she has with this, that I have to keep my word and not expect anything until our agreed upon moment. She however is not bound to this and has the power to tell me whenever she wants it, knowing that she can easily make me succumb to her prowess and confidence if she is actually in the mood. 

I guess my wife's form of sexual validation is about power in the relationship. A few years ago it was about her enjoying the power to say no. Today she is learning that is is way more fun for her to enjoy the power of me not being able to say no to her. To be honest, I find myself freaking out a little as it is almost a role reversal. But the last few times together have been initiated on her terms for which she has "really enjoyed" being in control. Meanwhile I just have to hang on and try to keep up with her!

Will it last? I don't know. But all my usual efforts of trying to figure out how to manipulate her for more sex can now be diverted into making other aspects of our marriage more enjoyable and my continued work on her voracious new levels on confidence!

If I had to ask myself where my sexual validation comes from, I would have to say at the moment it comes from seeing my wife more confident in our marriage. 

Regards,
Badsanta


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## hope4family (Sep 5, 2012)

HD / LD - My thoughts as of today. Subject to change. 

First off, good for you Badsanta. More importantly, good on your wife. I think that's the xfactor that a lot of people here fail to realize. While you are "putting in all this work" the real answer is in the validation of the work, a partner who tries to please you but admits cannot keep up.

I do not necessarily think there is HD / LD. That being said, I am divorced, I have been with someone who just never seemed to think of it at times and it was like hell chasing one thing that I couldn't focus on anything else. 

Hours upon hours of counseling later, book after book, theory after theory, I can clearly say that there is no such thing as HD vs LD it all comes down to willful partner, vs unwilling partner. Loving partner vs unloving partner. Marriage in of itself, is a compromise. You can find someone whose path is clearly in sync with yours and you will inevitably find yourself compromising something to stay in that relationship. Now bare with me, there is clearly a difference between sex drives in almost all cases. So there kinda is a HD / LD, but the characteristic of how it is dealt with, is primarily from a place of needs. Did you marry someone who will work on meeting your needs? 

Now in before the "I haven't had sex in months" group. Been there, done that, marriage is dissolved and I have moved on. This forum is incredibly addicting, and on top of that, is bound to bring out the people with really sincere, extreme and special circumstances. In many ways, that's why it brought me here. Most people though, put in the work badsanta is talking about, and realize that marriage is commitment and work, and even better have an understanding spouse who gets it too. 

As far as sex goes for the next potential Misses? Well I have broken up with women who clearly have stated they can't and won't keep up. I have broken up with females where it isn't "easy". I am currently with one that admits she doesn't want it as much as me, but understands I have needs. To counseling we go. It's what heavy lifting looks like. Will it work? No guarantees. If she believes she can't keep up short term, well there are more women then men in the world. 

Right now we are experimenting with love languages and "scheduling" intimacy. Plenty of pro's for scheduling that Badsanta has already shared. & no, it's not a compromise, because I am going to get it when I go for it lol. As far as compromise goes, well it's mutual concession. Not just a HD sacrifice but a LD sacrifice. Hard to see that when you are 6 months no sex. So I get it. Unless there is a reason why you are in it that validates you to the point where you only want to post to vent once in a while. Divorce him / her.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Sadly that seems pretty accurate.

It really boils down to "sex is not important to the LD". Since its not important to them and they refuse to believe it is important to the HD, they will not go to any significant effort to make things better.

There is not way to win for the HD. Say nothing and the LD will think you are happy. Make gentle comments and they will agree that "we should spend more time in bed", but not actually do it because its not a priority. Complain, and you are just needy. The LD thinks that a desire for sex is itself a bad thing, and that the HD is weak / selfish for wanting it. 

Cheat, Leave, Live like a monk / nun.

As Cudlebug indicated, if you stay you can get toys and build up a porn addiction so that you don't care anymore. 






CuddleBug said:


> Very informative, thx.
> 
> 
> This is what I've learned for my marriage, also a LD / HD mismatch.
> ...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

uhtred said:


> It really boils down to "sex is not important to the LD". Since its not important to them and they refuse to believe it is important to the HD, they will not go to any significant effort to make things better.


Please remember that not every HD/LD situation results in little or no sex. There are couples where the LD does all the compromising and provides "sex on demand". Not infrequently, the LD shows up here on TAM complaining that, despite providing sex whenever the HD asked for it, the HD cheated on them or broke up with them because they weren't enthusiastic enough.

But you are correct that, once the HD/LD dynamic kicks in, if the LD refuses to provide much sex, the HD has no good choices except to leave and find someone more compatible. Hopefully before there are kids involved. If the LD kicked in when the kids arrived, then as you say the HD has no good choice.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

True enough. I'm guilty, like many others, of thinking that my personal situation represents everyone's reality. 



Holdingontoit said:


> Please remember that not every HD/LD situation results in little or no sex. There are couples where the LD does all the compromising and provides "sex on demand". Not infrequently, the LD shows up here on TAM complaining that, despite providing sex whenever the HD asked for it, the HD cheated on them or broke up with them because they weren't enthusiastic enough.
> 
> But you are correct that, once the HD/LD dynamic kicks in, if the LD refuses to provide much sex, the HD has no good choices except to leave and find someone more compatible. Hopefully before there are kids involved. If the LD kicked in when the kids arrived, then as you say the HD has no good choice.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

uhtred said:


> True enough. I'm guilty, like many others, of thinking that my personal situation represents everyone's reality.


*I think we are ALL guilty of that!*

What is interesting is that you stand to learn the most about someone (or yourself for that matter) when they are trying to help. As they will project their own perceptions of themselves onto you. 

You can use this to also learn more about your own spouse. Ask her to help you with something emotionally. You will likely not gain much insight into your own emotions, but you will learn more about how her emotions work and how she likely perceives you with her same emotions within her reality. 

What is even more interesting is to pay close attention to yourself as you try to help others, and you'll likely start to learn a few things about yourself that may not be that obvious to you. 

So let us put this into practice... During arguments over intimacy, my wife has accused me of being arbitrarily aroused and just wanting to use her! If you step back from that, it likely means that she struggles to understand her own arousal and that her desire for sex likely feels rather arbitrary to her sometimes. This would seem to make a great deal of sense for a LD spouse that may not be very in touch with her own sexuality enough to know exactly what things are arousing for her and why. Also every time I discuss something I like a lot in our bedroom, she is often very inquisitive as to "why" I might enjoy something so much. I can always give her a very detailed answer. If I ask her the same question just after sex was super awesome for her, she will reply with, "I have no idea what you were just doing, but whatever it was, I have never felt something that good before." In other words she has no idea why she likes something which means afterwards the sexual enjoyment may feel somewhat arbitrary for her! Meanwhile I actually understand what was going on and can recreate it for her later to which she will say, "OMG I love how you just seem to know exactly what to do during a moment I think it is just not going to happen!"

Badsanta


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> During arguments over intimacy, my wife has accused me of being arbitrarily aroused and just wanting to use her!


Since she already believes it, as I've said before you could finally show some strength and confidence by telling her "yes I want to use you".


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Personal said:


> Since she already believes it, as I've said before you could finally show some strength and confidence by telling her "yes I want to use you".


I have actually told her that but in a rather playful context, and then I'll say it is the only reason I've stuck around for so long. OMG she can't stop giggling! Then I accuse her of doing the same with me!


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> I have actually told her that but in a rather playful context, and then I'll say it is the only reason I've stuck around for so long. OMG she can't stop giggling! Then I accuse her of doing the same with me!


Thumbs up, well done!


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